
Canadian software engineers paid peanuts - johan_larson
So, I’ve been looking at the differentials in pay for software engineers in the US and Canada. And I gotta tell you, it’s just sad. Here are some figures from Vancouver’s pitch[1] to Amazon for HQ2. Toronto pay is half of Seattle pay. No wonder half of each class from Waterloo heads south.<p>Market Average Annual Tech Wage
Software Engineer (USD)<p><pre><code>  Vancouver, BC — $60,107
  Toronto, ON — $62,365
  Atlanta, GA — $92,380
  Boston, MA — $103,979
  Washington, DC — $108,330
  New York, NY — $108,878
  Seattle, WA — $113,906
</code></pre>
The question is why the difference is so very broad. Off hand, I suspect the problem is demand. Seattle has two large top-tier tech companies based locally. Toronto has nothing of the sort. There are smaller tech companies, of course, and banks and one outpost of one of the majors. But the deep need to fight for talent just isn&#x27;t there.<p>[1] http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.vancouvereconomic.com&#x2F;wp-content&#x2F;uploads&#x2F;2018&#x2F;02&#x2F;Vancouver-Amazon-HQ2-Proposal-Feb-2018.pdf
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techjuice
It's all about supply and demand. The big tech companies want the best
engineers in the world and they are willing to pay for them as their value and
return on investment is what makes them the top revenue companies in the
world. If the companies in Vancouver wanted top talent they would need to
increase compensation in terms of salary, bonuses, stock options, etc. and
insure the community around the business is modern and high tech.

As a top engineer you have the choice to go where ever the best challenges and
compensation are. If you have over 10 years experience in a field and very
good at what you do you should be paid exceptional well for it. As the value
you bring to the company you work for makes the bottom line meter move upwards
and you bring innovation and help move the company forward.

Mix a couple of teams of top quality and value engineers and you get products
and services that the entire world wants to use. Talent also attracts talent,
so if your company has very well known engineers working there that are very
well known and respected in their fields other engineers will follow.

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Davidbrcz
Raw figures are worthless without taking into account cost of living, taxes
and public services (social security, retirement plan).

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johan_larson
If you have more accurate figures, by all means post them. But it's going to
take a lot to span a gap this broad.

For what it's worth, both Vancouver and Toronto were rated as "severely
unaffordable" in the 14th Annual Demographia International Housing
Affordability Survey: 2018.

[https://fcpp.org/wp-content/uploads/dhi2018-fcpp.pdf](https://fcpp.org/wp-
content/uploads/dhi2018-fcpp.pdf)

~~~
spoonie
You can consider things like the cost of health care (usually moot as big
companies in the US will pay for all of your insurance costs), and education
for your kids. What’s the tuition difference between top tier schools in the
US and Canada? What about primary school? I hear many people in the US pay to
send their kids to private primary and secondary schools. If you are raising a
family in the US those are lots of extra ancillary costs that are higher than
in Canada.

~~~
adventured
There are no top tier schools in Canada. That's one of the problems. There's
no Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Stanford, MIT, Berkeley, Brown, Duke, Chicago,
Columbia, Penn, CIT, Hopkins, Carnegie Mellon, et al.

Canada's few top tier schools, are second tier schools in the US, barely.
Canada has only a few schools that compare to the University of Virginia, UNC
or Michigan. The US has dozens of schools like that, eg: USC, UCLA, Florida,
UC San Diego, UC Irvine, Tulane, Pepperdine, Northeastern, Georgia, Boston,
GIT, BC, NYU, Tufts, Wake Forest, Wisconsin Madison, Texas, Villanova, Penn
State, Ohio State etc.

A bunch of those second tier schools cost $9k to $12k per year in-state
tuition + fees. UNC is $9k, Florida is $6k. A four year degree will get you a
$85k to $100k per year career as an engineer. You can pay for half of your
tuition cost before you graduate with part-time work.

You can go to Berkely for $14k in-state. A degree from there in something of
value in engineering, and you can write your ticket. You can easily pay off
your education in a few years, and have an elite career that pays a top 3%
income.

~~~
kohanz
I'm curious how you define top-tier in this situation, especially tech-
centric. I agree the U.S. has more "top" institutions from a reputation
standpoint (partially due to us living in a US-centric western world), but
they are also astronomically more expensive to attend than their Canadian
counterparts. The University of Waterloo is probably not a "top-tier" school
by any formal metric, but I would be surprised if it doesn't rival or beat the
very top schools in the U.S. in terms of top engineers & tech entrepreneurs
produced on a per-capita basis.

Waterloo, for example, has a co-op program that (at least when I attended it
years ago) had me graduating debt-free, with built-up savings, and 2 years of
tech. experience (including in SV). Many of my peers went to work for MS,
Google, or Amazon (the big players at the time) right after graduation.
Basically, if you wanted to go south of the border, you could, but of course
many want to stay in Canada. I think similar opportunities are there for
students from Toronto and other institutions. Accounting for population
difference, I don't think the gap is that massive.

Also, Sam Altman is a big fan :)

 _While researching his piece Bruni spoke with Sam Altman, the president of Y
Combinator, one of the best-known providers of seed money for tech startups.

Bruni asked him if any one school stood out in terms of students and graduates
whose ideas took off. “Yes,” Altman responded. Bruni was prepared to hear
Altman tout his alma mater Stanford. After all it’s famous as a feeder of
Silicon Valley success.

But Altman surprised him: “The University of Waterloo.”_

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xstartup
The job is just not same.

In the big company where my bro worked had its best employees sent to HQ so
that they could pay them more.

The guys who got employed at satellite offices could never directly get
employed at the HQ.

Rest of the small companies have no choice but to pay more to get any talent.

I think big companies have their HQ in those expensive areas because their top
guys prefer that for networking purpose. Most of the time a city is
established as a hub for X and it's difficult to change that.

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gesman
It's not unheard of for Senior Canadian Software engineer to get paid about
2x-4x times more in CA[lifornia].

Miserable salary? Miserably long depressing winters? Thanks, but no thanks.

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oblib
The measurement that really needs to be considered is "quality of life" and
that is easy to overlook.

I wouldn't live in DC or New York for those wages but Vancouver might not be
too bad for the pay there and I know of places where you could get by on less
than 60k and live quite a bit better than any of those for the wages listed. I
live in one.

~~~
O_H_E
Interesting POV

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nakedgrape
Hmm. I've seen these charts often but I have to say I've never met anyone get
paid less than eighty. Myself and most of my peers at UBC start at about
90-110k for Google, Fb, Amazon and whatnot (only speaking for Vancouver).

My dad also worked in software back in the day in Toronto and he was also
rarely less than 100k.

~~~
johan_larson
Keep in mind that these figures are in American dollars. Also, the companies
you mention are the elite of this industry, and pay accordingly. Other places
pay less.

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danieltillett
Like everything it is a factor of supply and demand. On the demand side there
is not as great a demand from employers for software engineers in Canada, on
the supply side immigration is considerably easier into Canada for software
engineers. Less demand and greater supply = lower wages.

We have the same issue here in Australia.

~~~
hemantv
Not to refute you completely. Maybe it because there are not many companies
that can be created with small populations as Canada and Australia? Which
results in less companies.

US benefit far more from big large single market with high purchasing power
than anything else. IMHO.

Let me know if I am missing something here.

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lucozade
I just took a quick look at average salaries and cost of living (specifically
rent) [0].

WRT average salaries, none of these seem particularly out of kilter i.e. the
ratios of the salaries you quote to the average salary of the respective areas
are fairly consistent.

What's interesting is cost of living. Surprisingly (to me) Vancouver and
Toronto have salary to rent ratios similar to New York. Boston and Washington
are better i.e. higher ratios. Seattle and especially Atlanta are much better.

Not sure what to conclude from this but it's quite interesting, at least to
me.

[0] [https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-
living](https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living) I have absolutely no idea
how good this data is.

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parliament32
Seems to be a combination of cost-of-living and demand. Consider the following
cost-of-living comparison between Vancouver and Seattle:

Consumer Prices in Seattle, WA are 20.02% higher than in Vancouver

Consumer Prices Including Rent in Seattle, WA are 22.54% higher than in
Vancouver

Rent Prices in Seattle, WA are 26.38% higher than in Vancouver

Restaurant Prices in Seattle, WA are 19.51% higher than in Vancouver

Groceries Prices in Seattle, WA are 21.84% higher than in Vancouver

([https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/comparison.jsp](https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/comparison.jsp))

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cmorgan8506
I'm Canadian and have definitely noticed a big difference. Though there also
seems to be a strong demand for programmers, so I'm not sure why the wage
isn't pushing further.

I'm remote. so I've found contracting to American companies to be best case
scenario. Particularly when the our dollar is lower.

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mchannon
Part of this difference is also the fluctuation in exchange rates.

Around 2014, 1 CAD was worth about 1 USD, but since then, the loonie has
plummeted in value relative to the greenback.

That doesn't account for the entire difference, but it does account for some
of it.

