
Ask HN: Do you Consider Life to be Futile - tekkanphan
I Have no Formal Background in Philosophy. All I&#x27;ve Learned is from Internet and Books such as The Stranger(Camus),Sophie&#x27;s World(Jostein Gaarder.) etc.
It would be really great If you can give Elegant Arguments for either case .(And please don&#x27;t bring  uncertain entities(like God) or concepts).Thanks.
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tomjakubowski
I turn to the great philosophers of the early 90's when struggling with these
sort of existential questions:

    
    
        Life's a bitch and then you die
        That's why we get high
        Cause you never know when you're gonna go
        Life's a bitch and then you die
        That's why we puff lye
        Cause you never know when you're gonna go
    

[http://rapgenius.com/Nas-lifes-a-bitch-lyrics](http://rapgenius.com/Nas-
lifes-a-bitch-lyrics)

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AnimalMuppet
If there is no God, if all there is is the physical universe, then we are here
only by chance. The universe doesn't care about us, because there's nobody
there to care. All there is is matter and the laws of physics.

Therefore, all _we_ can be is matter that obeys the laws of physics. That's
_all_ we can be - nothing more.

In particular, it is impossible that we have any kind of free will or real
choice. Matter that obeys the laws of physics doesn't choose anything - it
just obeys the laws of physics.

Love (in the real sense, that of choosing to do what's best for the other
person) is impossible, because choosing is impossible.

And you can keep going down the list. Everything that we think of as making us
human is dead, and we are just machines made of atoms biochemicals, and
neurons. We're slaves to the laws of physics.

If that's the case, then what kind of meaning is possible? Even meaning that
we make for ourselves, we're making as robots.

There lies the horror of modern humanity. We have all these human aspirations,
including the longing for meaning, but we don't believe that what we long for
is at all possible. The impersonal universe, creating us by chance, has made
us with desires but with no way to fulfill them. What a horror we are trapped
in!

You have asked that we not bring God in. But at this point, you kind of have
to, because the existence of God would totally change this picture. If there
is a God, and if God is a He rather than an It, then personality can a real
thing, rather than just a "ghost in the machine". And if He made humans, then
human personality can also be real rather than just a facade that emerges from
complex mechanistic behavior.

So that's the alternative: Either you were created as a cruel joke by an
impersonal, mechanistic universe, or as a true personality by a God who is a
person. Now to my point: I assert that your desire for meaning is not just a
cruel joke. It is _evidence_ \- evidence that you are more than the
materialist view says that you can be.

Commence hellbanning in 5, 4, 3...

~~~
idoh
I like your comment, but I think it creates a false dichotomy between a
deterministic universe or one with a higher power. What about a middle option,
where there is no higher power but the universe isn't deterministic?

If the laws of physics include randomness / some amount of vagueness, then
maybe it changes things from a philosophical perspective.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
If there is no higher power, if the physical universe is all there is, and if
our current understanding of the physical universe is correct, there is some
randomness - quantum uncertainty. But that's not the same as my free will or
ability to choose, because my choice does not determine the results of the
quantum uncertainty.

That leaves me essentially as a deterministic machine with some noise at the
lowest levels. It doesn't leave me as what was classically considered human...

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maximgsaini
Is it Futile? Is human existence futile? Depends on what your definition of
'futile' is. When compared to the expanse of the entire universe, we are a
mere speck. No matter what we do today, we will make no difference to the
progression of the universe. Even if we somehow developed the capability to
alter the progression of our solar system (note that we can alter the
progression of things here on earth), it would potentially be 'futile'.

We potentially don't have a 'purpose'. But why do you need a 'purpose'? Does
the moon have 'purpose' too? Will a Blazar be 'evil' if it destroys us with
its gamma radiation someday? The human brain is wired to find purpose behind
simple things. This simple 'feature' has helped us come so far. It helps us
while dealing with the social/human/biological order of things. Why does the
US government have this policy? Why did facebook buy WhatsApp? Why is an
elephant so big? These are reasonable questions. But it doesn't apply to the
natural order...why are we here? Why does the earth exist? Of course, "how we
got here" is a relevant scientific question. But "why" is probably not.

Look at the irony. The human brain is arguably the most important thing in the
universe. Despite that fact, it is potentially 'futile'. Probably, there is
nothing in the universe which is not 'futile'.

You can't alter the universe. But you can alter the race which has the
potential to alter the universe. So help the human race get there.

just my 2 cents.

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tostitos1979
Two thoughts:

1) Read "The Conquest of Happiness" by Bertrand Russell. It really helped me.

2) If you have the gift of building stuff, a good purpose of life is to build
bridges. I don't mean to connect people together. Think of a tribe on an
island. The island has another island beside it. People might be able to get
from their home island to another, but it is a pain. When someone (maybe me,
maybe you) builds a bridge to the other land, all of society gains a little
bit. If the bridge is solid, maybe it will last for generations. People will
go about their business but their lives will be somewhat improved by the
bridge. This is one of the reasons I like to write software. My attitude has
caused me some problems in my career. I'm a scientist and I should not be
writing software most of the time. But whatever, that's what gives my life
meaning.

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lutusp
> Do you Consider Life to be Futile

This presumes that life has its own predefined explanation that all organisms
must obey. But:

1\. Evolution by natural selection contradicts the idea that life has a
predefined explanation, and evolution is one of the most powerful and well-
supported of scientific theories.

2\. As thinking creatures, we get to use our intelligence to decide for
ourselves what our lives mean. This is the personal version of natural
selection.

So, on that basis, if you have the idea that life is futile, just come up with
a new idea. This intellectual latitude is what separates you from a rock.

> And please don't bring uncertain entities(like God) or concepts.

Wouldn't dream of it. God (religion) is one of the classic traps that makes
life seem to have a predefined meaning, one not in our control. On that basis
alone it should be rejected by all free thinkers.

~~~
tekkanphan
Good Argument until "This intellectual latitude is what separates you from a
rock.

~~~
lutusp
Oh, well, it sounded good at the time. :)

Were you objecting on the basis that the rock has some version of
consciousness? The argument has been made and it's interesting, but I thought
it was pretty far afield from the present topic.

~~~
tekkanphan
>The argument has been made and it's interesting, but I thought it was pretty
far afield from the present topic.

Well your argument was right on Topic.Are you referring to any other topic.

>Were you objecting on the basis that the rock has some version of
consciousness?

No i took it personally :)

~~~
lutusp
Whoah, very sorry -- it wasn't meant as any kind of criticism, solely that
rocks aren't usually thought of as conscious entities.

It's just that one theory of consciousness is that we shouldn't be trying so
hard to locate it in ourselves for the reason that all matter has
consciousness. I emphasize that this idea has zero scientific support, it's
just a philosophical speculation.

Again, no offense intended -- not at all.

~~~
collyw
There isn't a lot of scientific evidence for anything related to conciseness.

Science is based on observation, while we experience consciousness. And as the
Buddhists, say you can't observe an experience.

~~~
lutusp
> There isn't a lot of scientific evidence for anything related to
> conciseness.

Or consciousness either. :)

But it's true, whichever spelling we use -- consciousness is a subjective,
philosophical area with no real scientific substance, and it will probably
remain that way.

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luxpir
Yes, it is completely futile, if you ask me. I've thought a lot about the
varying arguments, to the point where all parties from agnostics to the
religious and/or spiritual and even the (noisy) atheists frustrate me for
their absolute confidence in their own 'logic'. But, and it's a big but, from
a human point of view, futility should not be cause for concern.

Life is beautiful (to the average human) in so many ways. Anyone who can read
and contemplate this kind of post has won the greatest lottery in the
universe, and those winnings shouldn't be squandered on worry and complaint.

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kennethtilton
My first thought was that the question cannot be answered without knowing what
we must fail at inevitably for life to be futile. I looked up futile to be
sure:

"incapable of producing any useful result; pointless."

As I feared, it begs the question: what is considered useful?

If it is leaving the world a better (healthier, more peaceful, more
ccmfrtable) place than when you found it, no, life is not futile.

If the goal is personal happiness or at least contentment, no, life is not
futile, though it certainly feels that way during clinical depression. (Long,
dark winters can do that -- look up S.A.D.)

~~~
tekkanphan
Good Argument. Then Do you believe in More is better?

~~~
kennethtilton
Good gosh, no. For example, I am with Einstein: make everything as simple as
possible, but no simpler. ie, There is a right amount of everything. I guess I
am also with Goldilocks, then. I said, "More comfortable", but Americans have
nicely demonstrated how in excess that leads to obesity and diabetes. So now
we have learned that true comfort comes from a bit more exercise and a lot
less garbage food, and now we have come full circle: life is not futile.
People ridiculed in the 60s for espousing healthier diet finally got heard and
made the world a better place. Did you see the recent news about Coke/Pepsi in
decline? Kaching.

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lugg
Of course. You're born naked and you die naked. The only point to life anyone
can possibly argue is one they deem worthy. For me, I felt content at 17. From
there I decided the only way I would be happy living longer is if it would
mean something at least in the end. How did I define "meaning": decided I had
to change the world, for better or worse, as long as something in the world
changes by my being around, I'll be content. In other words if I could have
not existed and the world ends up in the same place without me, I've failed.

In ten years that might mean having kids, right now it means trying to set
myself up so I can focus on making a real difference when I figure out how to
make the world a little bit less fucked.

Like I said, I dont think anyone can argue this without first assuming their
view is somewhat correct in the first place. All of the above is just my views
on this topic. Take it or leave it I'm not really fussed, just thought I would
share.

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wturner
I'm convinced there is an 'order' to this world. It might all be one giant
illusion where our attempts to understand the underline fabric is all ego
driven dribble ( or whatever) but this still assumes an order. I'm more in awe
of that than the question of futility. If their is an "order" does that
presume purpose? No. But it presumes something 'more' and the 'more' is what
drives people. So maybe a lack of futility resides in this part of us
somewhere. Most organisms are designed to populate and survive, as a species
we do that pretty well so I suppose we are not-as-futile as some species but
at the same time we can't fuck with cockroaches and water bears. lol

I'm really on here just trying to get a job. wktdev [at] gee mail

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sixQuarks
"life" which comes with consciousness is simply the universe reflecting on
itself. Everything in the universe is made up of atoms including "ourselves".

Cells are the basic building blocks of life. We are made up of trillions of
cells. If each cell were "conscious", they would think of you the same way we
think of the interconnected consciousness of the 7 billion humans on this
planet.

What I'm trying to say is that there are layers upon layers of "life". I
believe it goes on endlessly in both directions and sometimes we get trapped
into thinking too much about "I" or "me".

Life is what it is. Enjoy the fact that you're able to see and undertand a
very small glimpse of it. That is truly a miracle.

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raquo
I'm assuming this is a practical question rather than a theoretical one, since
you don't want abstract concepts that you can't relate to.

Usually if you enjoy your live you don't stop to ask if it's futile or not.
When life is hard or boring... that's when such questions usually arise.

So... I don't what to assume to much, but if life is too boring, you CAN make
it better. It's not futile. The general strategy seems to be to 1) get skills,
2) get paid for those skills, 3) have free time, 4) figure out what's
interesting to you and spend time and money doing that. Many people have
problems figuring out each of these steps, but they're all solvable.

~~~
tekkanphan
Actually I didn't say that I don't want Abstract concepts. I don't want
concepts which do not proceed by logic .

~~~
raquo
Well, there is a certain enjoyment that comes from living – doing the things
one enjoys. I don't know how one could argue that enjoying life is futile. If
one is currently unable to do the things they enjoy, he/she should figure out
how to fix it (see the general plan in previous comment). If one does not
enjoy _anything_ , he/she should try new things to discover what he/she
enjoys. Not wanting to do such a discovery may be a sign of poor environment /
life situation, medical conditions (depression), or general laziness. Each of
these is generally solvable. A person who is truly determined to improve
his/her life usually succeeds at the task, sooner or later. The key is to take
the matter in their own hands rather than expect life to get better by itself.
If anything I'd say ding so is a prerequisite of adulthood.

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dmfdmf
The idea that life is futile or pointless or absurd has a long tradition in
western philosophic thought, however it is rests on a fundamental error and is
a dead-end. I won't go into the technical details but, no, I do not subscribe
to that view. You?

~~~
tekkanphan
Can you point out the fundamental error. Reasoning is always welcome

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ohsnap
If you liked the stranger give his book the myth of sisyphus a try. You'd
probably enjoy that.

There are no elegant arguments. Eventually you'll find a book, an idea, or an
experience that speaks to you ... and that will make you comfortable in not
knowing.

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tekkanphan
This question is not even in top 5 pages of Ask HN. can anyone explain me why?
There are no flame wars going on here , and people have come up with Good
explanations too.

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codezero
No.

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GrahamsNumber
Life sucks, and then you die.

~~~
mikelyons
Parking's a bitch and then you marry one.

