
GNU Taler - adrianN
https://taler.net/en/index.html
======
jabot
I was at the presentation at SHA 2017.

The demo was nice, even though i did not understand any of the crypto.
Although, to be fair, i didn't even try :-)

One important take away for me was that this project aims to replace paypal,
not bitcoin. Its target is to establish an open source payment infrastructure
that is better than paying with credit cards, paypal, etc...

~~~
StudentStuff
I keep hearing about Taler from a friend of mine, but there hasn't been much
adoption among banks or credit unions, limiting its usefulness.

The banking sector in the US is a mosaic of banks and credit unions running a
wide variety of debit networks, with ACH vaguely tying them all together. I
wish it was easier to move money between banks here, seems like the quickest
way is to write a check!

~~~
TomK32
SEPA, guaranteed wire transfers over night and in November this year a payment
under 15000€ will happen in 10s (ten seconds!). Not even Bitcoin can do that
anymore with transactions taking more and more time (or fees).

If the US gov would put some weight behind it, the US could easily catch up.

~~~
mahyarm
I think your 10s transaction is about equivalent to an unconfirmed bitcoin
transaction or credit card authorization. How often is the actual bank-to-bank
transfer?

The fact that there is an arbitrary money amount shows it's more of a fraud
cutoff than a real limit.

~~~
kpil
It depends. The banks nets the transactions a number of times during the day,
normally using a central bank.

In the mean time the credit on your account is debited a 'float' account that
accumulates any debt to other banks or third party payment system. Each fast
payment system also typically have a reserved amount deposited as a guarantee
in the event that a bank runs out of money.

It's a real cost to reserve money so there is a restriction on the sums.

Can the central banks speed up the settlement? Yes probably, but it's a lot of
work to do.

------
archagon
Neat! I'm of the opinion that journalism, open source development, etc. would
be much closer to self-sustaining if only users had the option of dropping a
quarter in the hat — performing a one-click micropayment — when visiting a
webpage. I'm not likely to subscribe to the NYT, but I'd gladly pay 25 cents
after reading a great article if it didn't require entering CC info and
bouncing between three different webpages. Unfortunately, this would require
immense coordination between web standards, browsers, OS vendors, and banks to
implement. Taler sounds like it's targeting a similar use case; I hope it sees
wide adoption so that at least the idea could be tested at scale!

(Sadly, with most traffic coming from mobile these days, I'm not sure how well
the wallet concept would play with iOS's closed ecosystem. Is it against the
App Store guidelines to release a wallet-type extension? Sigh, I miss the days
when hacky tech like Napster and BitTorrent would set the world on fire
without anyone having to gatekeep...)

~~~
throwawayjava
_> but I'd gladly pay 25 cents after reading a great article if it didn't
require entering CC info and bouncing between three different webpages...
Unfortunately, this would require immense coordination between web standards,
browsers, OS vendors, and banks to implement_

If you're okay with customers choosing to make piece-work payments _after
consuming the material_ , the problem becomes much easier because micro-
payments don't have to be instantaneous or binding.

All you need is a not-terribly-insecure ledger that the consumer has full
read/write access to, and approves of every month (perhaps implicitly for
bills under $X). This removes a lot of the security/trust/coordination issues
-- an 90% solution is good enough if you just double-check with the consumer
before doing anything actually important. Similar to the proposal here:
[https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/17/the-learned-
helplessness-o...](https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/17/the-learned-helplessness-
of-equifax/) Micro-payments made by browser software (sim. SSNs) become spam-
reducing mechanisms rather than trusted tokens.

Of course, this doesn't work if you want true micro-payments; i.e., where the
consumer pays for access to the material, instead of making a piece-work
contribution after having already consumed the material.

~~~
mst
And american signature-less swipe transactions and now the contactless
sub-30-quid payment thing in .uk seem to make it pretty clear that below a
certain amount, consumers really don't give a shit about explicitly approving
things.

------
kome
That's would be an awesome alternative to PayPal. I wish them luck.

Edit: btw, we really need a public and free payment system, why are we giving
to paypal and credit cards this incredible privilege? Paying with digital cash
should be as inexpensive as paying with real cash.

~~~
fiatjaf
Are you serious? Do you think "we should", really? Have you ever considered
the problems and probably impossibility in achieving what you want?

~~~
jabot
On the other hand, it's not like handling physical cash is free, really.

Think about time spent counting, ensuring that there are no falsified notes,
bringing excess notes to the bank and making sure there is change, etc.

I think it is quite feasible to create an electronic payment system that has
comparable overhead.

Consider that there are existing electronic payment systems, e.g. electronic
cash in europe, that already work and are quite secure (being smartcard-based)

~~~
fiatjaf
I didn't say that. I've just said that it is not possible to have an "open"
web payments standard. Someone has to maintain it and link it to the real
world money.

The only way besides having centralized for-profit organizations maintaining
the payments infrastructure is to use cryptocurrencies.

------
kbutler
> Private When you pay with Taler, your identity does not have to be revealed.
> Just like payments in cash, nobody else can track how you spent your
> electronic money. However, you obtain a legally valid proof of payment.

> The exact details of the underlying contract that was signed between
> customer and merchant. However, this information would typically not include
> the identity of the customer.

IRS: The term “money laundering” refers to the activities and financial
transactions that are undertaken specifically to hide the true source of the
money.

[https://www.irs.gov/compliance/criminal-
investigation/overvi...](https://www.irs.gov/compliance/criminal-
investigation/overview-money-laundering)

Am I missing something?

[I see by the downvotes this is an unpopular perspective, but I can't see how
Taler's claims "Taler is not suitable for illegal activities" and "Taler
prevents tax evasion and money laundering" are justifiable. It seems ideally
designed for money laundering as defined by the IRS - "hiding the source of
the money". Please explain it to me (ELI5)]

~~~
jimktrains2
How is this different from cash? Money laundering is about intent, not means
of payment.

~~~
kbutler
It is very similar to cash in that it is an anonymous means of payment.
However, Taler tries to legitimize the transfer and explicitly claims "Taler
is not suitable for illegal activities."
[https://taler.net/en/index.html](https://taler.net/en/index.html)

But by hiding the source of funds, it seems eminently suitable for illegal
activities. Putting a (partially) legitimate business as front to process
illegal profits is a textbook money laundering structure.

~~~
jimktrains2
> Putting a (partially) legitimate business as front to process illegal
> profits is a textbook money laundering structure.

Yes, but how does Taler equate to doing this? Again, how is it any different
than cash? Money Laundering is about intent, not instrument.

~~~
kbutler
The primary uses of Taler will likely be legitimate - I never equated it to
money laundering, just expressed my doubt for the assertion that it cannot be
used for money laundering.

I can't tell you how Taler differs from cash with respect to money laundering.
That's why I asked the question.

Can you tell me why Taler cannot be used for money laundering?

~~~
Accacin
I think you're reading the "Taler is not suitable for illegal activities."
wrong. They're not saying you _can 't_ (as like you said, of course you
_could_ ), they're saying you _shouldn 't_

I guess what they're saying is, "we don't want you to doing anything illegal
on our service, but we can't really stop you easily if you were to do that".

~~~
kbutler
"Taler prevents tax evasion and money laundering."
[https://taler.net/en/merchants.html](https://taler.net/en/merchants.html)

~~~
TACIXAT
Perhaps it is private between transacting parties but still trackable per
account (in line with know your customer laws).

------
zdkl
I seem to remember that the Cannabis industry in the US was having difficulty
establishing banking relations with reputable firms. They could be a good
start for this project to see usage given the open source philosophy that
might resonate with some dispensaries and the friction with traditional
payment processors.

Users of those commerces wouldn't be too hostile to the alternative payment
option I'd imagine, and maybe with the combination of INRIA & GNU pedigree,
backend relations would be less risky for the "real finance" interface.

------
jiri
In EU it is really trivial and very cheap, fast and safe to transfer payments
between individual bank accounts and business bank accounts. It would be
really hard to further simplify it.

~~~
eeZah7Ux
10x times better than the US? Maybe yes - but not cheap and fast enough for
micropayments.

~~~
tscs37
I mean, I have used Giropay and SOFORT, both of which have been always
confirmed instantly with relatively low fees (about 2% for my purchases, tho
I'm not certain how that scales for sub-10€ purchases).

------
nabla9
Success of payment system is extremely dependent on the network effect.

The value for users comes from the ubiquity of the payment system. Nobody
wants to transfer money into the wallet for infrequent or one time buys.

They seem to have the right idea and might get the implementation just right,
but if they can't get the momentum, it's all for nothing. I really hope this
takes off.

~~~
fsavard
That's what I don't get. Publishers have all the incentive to get behind a
solution like this, but somehow I never see a "send a tip" or Flattr button
anywhere (maybe I'm not looking?).

I just wish a bunch of well-known publishers would get together and agree on
_one_ solution that they'd all add to their site.

It's just a matter of adding a widget on their article pages. They already
have large readership. It could kick things off and maybe get over that
network effect cold-start issue.

They could add a nice bounty like "make a first payment and don't see ads on
our site for a month". Or similar.

A solution like this could be a good candidate because it's neutral. With
Flattr or similar you're encouraging that particular middleman. However I
think to inspire confidence in publishers they'd need to prove that this
solution will have strong support for years to come (which is always unsure
with open source projects).

EDIT: To be clear I'm mostly thinking of micropayments to news sites. The
strategy is less clear when talking about electronic commerce in general.

------
jerguismi
"Once the wallet is charged, payments on websites take only one click, are
never falsely rejected by fraud detection and do not pose any risk of phishing
or identity theft."

Pretty bold claims. Anyone can give ELI5 how it works? Merchant needs a bank
account, customer needs to load funds to the wallet... Sounds quite
traditional to me. Either these people are geniuses or they don't know what
they are doing.

------
oniony
GNU are quite famous for their graphic design skills.

~~~
kelvin0
I hate to admit it, but I do think their ideas and projects would gain wider
adoption if they packaged them in a more visually appealing way. I do like the
minimalist style, however the logo could use some work.

PS: I am a programmer, not a designer.

~~~
archagon
Open source software needs to find a way to fund designers. There's not nearly
as many "hobbyist UX designers" as there are programmers, unfortunately.

~~~
yoz-y
There are a lot of hobbyist UX designers out there, judging by the amount of
unsolicited redesigns and blogs about what could have been if...

The problem is that when you do something as a hobby, you usually want full
control. This puts the developer/designer duo at odds. I think this is why we
have many non-functional pretty designs and functional ugly
applications/sites.

------
Geee
How does this compare to the upcoming Payment Request API?

~~~
secstate
As I understand it, PR-API is a glue for current payment methods. So your
browser would simply contain a hash that is connected to a payment method
(i.e. a credit card). It's effectively like Stripe built in to your browser.
Before you use it you need to put in a payment method.

GNU Taler, however, is a payment method. It federates with other financial
institutions to allow you to make online purchases without using credit cards.
In the SHA2017 demo, they keep saying "it's like cash" and that's very close
to accurate. The one difference is that payment recipients are forced to keep
a paper trail of what money they've received (not from whom, but just that it
was received). So in that sense it's almost better than cash in that it's more
transparent for tax purposes, but maintains the anonymity of cash for the
buyer.

------
perpetualcrayon

      with extremely low transaction costs
    

Does anyone here happen to know what the pricing structure is?

~~~
runeks
The system is open, thus payment processors are in competition to provide the
lowest fees possible. This is, in my opinion, one of the important reasons why
a payment system needs to be open: competition forces fees to be as low as
realistically possible.

------
misil
This sounds a lot like the Ripple network. Or is there a substantial
technological difference?

~~~
ireflect
Agreed. The architecture diagram [1] describes a flow that is identical to how
a user on Ripple buys IOUs from a gateway, trades or spends them with other
users, and how a receiver redeems them with the gateway for the original
currency.

Ripple captured my attention for years, but its backing company has taken it
in a direction of commercial adoption which is good for them, but antithetical
to the applications I was excited about.

If GNU Taler is going to revive that vision, then that's really exciting!

[1]
[https://taler.net/en/architecture.html](https://taler.net/en/architecture.html)

------
Aeolun
I think this suffers from the same issue that I have with a lot of
crypto/magic currencies.

It isn't immediately clear to me why I'd want to use it. They could advertise
it as: 'Pay online, without Paypal!' and a big 'Sign Up' button, and it would
do more for me than anything their current page does.

Having GNU in the name doesn't really help either, as I associate it with
nobody adopting the thing whatsoever.

~~~
rekado
> They could advertise it as: 'Pay online, without Paypal!' and a big 'Sign
> Up' button, and it would do more for me than anything their current page
> does.

Taler requires banks to cooperate, so "signing up" doesn't make any sense in
this context. Taler support would have to be offered by the bank; a user
doesn't sign up for Taler --- they just need to use the Taler wallet
extension.

> Having GNU in the name doesn't really help either, as I associate it with
> nobody adopting the thing whatsoever.

Now you're just insulting. (I'm also a GNU hacker.)

~~~
Aeolun
>> Having GNU in the name doesn't really help either, as I associate it with
nobody adopting the thing whatsoever. >Now you're just insulting. (I'm also a
GNU hacker.)

I see how it can be taken that way. But I can't really help my impression of
the name.

------
anoother
Is this an official GNU project?

~~~
jordigh
I think the official terminology is that there is only one GNU project with
many GNU packages, of which Taler, gcc, and Gnome are: just a package.

~~~
schoen
That terminology doesn't seem to be used very consistently, even by project
maintainers:

[https://duckduckgo.com/?q="is+an+official+gnu+project"](https://duckduckgo.com/?q="is+an+official+gnu+project")

~~~
mattl
Yeah, typically "part of the GNU project"

------
s73ver_
In the future, perhaps it would be useful to put what the thing actually is in
the title. Just "GNU Taler" doesn't tell me anything about what something is,
other than it's a GNU project.

~~~
fusiongyro
Usually if you editorialize the title of the link submission the mods will
reset it to the title of the page.

~~~
s73ver_
I can understand why, but would saying "GNU Taler is blah blah" really
editorializing? As long as you aren't embellishing?

~~~
teddyh
Yes, the mods have been known to reset it anyway. It’s too bad, really.

~~~
mst
I would hope "GNU Taler (one-click cash payments)" would've survived because
it took a subtitle from the page rather than editorialising.

I sincerely doubt you can draw an accurate line for what's editorialising and
what isn't though and I think I'd prefer the mods to continue to err on the
side of "nope" simply because I think the failure modes are less annoying
overall. But it's always going to be a trade-off.

~~~
s73ver_
I think a blanket "nope" stance is too harsh, and leaves no room for nuance.
It also assumes that the mods are not intelligent people.

~~~
fusiongyro
The nice thing about bureaucracy is that it doesn't leave any room for debate.
Not everything needs to be debated. If you're on HN, you're here to waste
time. The click is free.

------
Y_Y
"the wallet's balance must be charged in the desired currency"

I wonder if this was written by someone from Central Europe. This use of the
word _charge_ is no good in English because it's a heteronym - it can mean to
add money or take it!

~~~
fermuch
What would be the correct word for only adding?

~~~
jcl
"Add" itself is acceptable: "the desired currency must be added to the
wallet's balance"

------
yarrel
Next: GNU Privacy Guard implements the Clipper Chip algorithm.

Why did GNU accept this state surveillance system as a project?

