
Ask HN: Why all the hate for ISP? - iAm25626
I worked for one.  Contrary to popular belief; not just any &quot;idiot&quot; can run an ISP.<p>I can understand the frustration with poorly trained CSR, billing error and etc.  After all it&#x27;s a business to make money; we are not going to hire MIT graduate just to tell the customer to reboot their equipments.<p>Internet isn&#x27;t &quot;free&quot;; it&#x27;s expensive to run an access technology infrastructure.  Running fiber, coax cost is not just a money problem but also political(town permit, pole rights).<p>All things aside the technology is interesting...<p>We are doing IOT, devOPS way before it was such a thing.  Running data center, configuration management, automation, DDOS mitigation are our DNA.  Granted not all the department embrace the &quot;HN&quot; culture but there are us who gets it.<p>I guess ISP is just a something that the tech people love to hate?
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al2o3cr
A short list, applicable if you're in the US:

* lobbying & suing to prevent competition from municipal broadband

* lobbying against net neutrality, because apparently the fact that _I_ paid for those bits from Netflix to be delivered isn't enough to keep Netflix from getting shaken down as well. Couldn't possibly have anything to do with most ISPs parent companies also being in the legacy video business...

* less of a problem now, but before DOCSIS got crazy-fast a lot of ISPs intensely oversold the lines (so you and 100 of your neighbors were all paying for "60 Mbps" internet on a line that could carry 60 Mbps TOTAL)

* MiTMing connections to insert ads and tracking

* lobbying for the right to, and then positively SALIVATING at tracking every site you visit and selling it to advertisers

* local monopolies / duopolies in most areas which mean you've got your "choice" of one or possibly two bastards who _both_ do all of the above. Good luck!

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iAm25626
Please see reply below. I guess most dislike ISP as a whole; but few
appreciated the technology problem domain.

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LeoSolaris
Generally, it is not the technical side of the ISP that gets a lot of hate.
Anyone in IT should have a reasonable grasp of just how hard networking really
is, so IT people should have a good feeling of how much harder than that it
would be to operate at the provider level.

What ends up being the anger issues are the purely commercial/business side:

The business decision to spy on users for advertising profits.

Their actual regional monopolies that skirt the law because there is national
level competition.

The inconsistent pricing and massive numbers of fees that are just pure
profit. (Not the few actual taxes.)

The close ties to legacy entertainment leads to a naked conflict of interests.

The political fallout from the FCC enforcing basic rules that actually built
the majority of the internet culture before it went big business.

The service that ISPs provide are outstandingly expensive with a glacial pace
of new technology roll outs. We know it's hard and expensive, but that's not
an excuse to do literally nothing but collect profits. FiOS is the perfect
example... NYC is suing because they took grant money and tax incentives, then
utterly neglected the agreed upon course of action.

Internet service should be a deeply regulated utility like water and
electricity. The strict price controls offset the regional monopolies model.
The companies that run ISP should be legally required to be independent from
non-ISP business interests, like cable TV, Entertainment, or phone services.
ISPs being divided at the last mile from the core plumbing of the internet
also sets up a deeply adversarial relationship with the backbone providers.
Integrating those two realms into regional entities enforcing
interconnectivity rules would reduce the Net Neutrality issue considerably.

None of those will ever happen, however. The lobbying against enforcing
utility rules that mandate the profit margins would be extreme.

Edit: Typos/Autocorrect

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mojomark
I dont hate ISPs in general, I hate ISPs like Comcast that leverage their
virtual monopoly in local markets (they are the only high speed provider in my
area) to avoid inestment in decent customer service while simultaneously
charging exorbitant prices.

In the U.S., we permit some private parties to use eminent domain reserved
property in exchange for the distribution of telecom infrastructure. I dont
have an issue with that principle like some folks do (1), and I dont care if
they make a lot of money, but I do take exception to these 'utilities'
ignoring the needs of their custimers. ISPs refuse to run fiber to our area
and they it took them 3 weeks to figure out that someone accidentally flipped
off the switch to my house on the utility pole MDU. No compensation for lost
time.

Personally, I long for the day when scalable mesh networks (2) allow people to
take the reigns back, similar to installing solar panels and cutting the power
grid chord. Yes, I realize there is still a need for such networks to tap into
the internet backbone, but it's a step.

1\.
[https://www.forbes.com/sites/timothylee/2011/12/06/telecommu...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/timothylee/2011/12/06/telecommunications-
and-the-public-use-principle/)

2\. [http://guifi.net](http://guifi.net)

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mojomark
*reins

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savethefuture
I hate ISPs because of their strong desire to monitor and track everything
that their clients use it for to then sell to other companies to target ads to
me and to openly give my information to big gov. It is also bullshit that I
have no choice on providers, its either move to a different side of town or
dont use the service.

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iAm25626
I get that.

However if we take the time and think this logically; do you appreciated the
challenges/technology to operate one?

ISP are similar to utility. Up front cost is astronomical. The town guarantee
"monopoly" in order to attract business looking for steady ROI(similar to
government infrastructure project: road, dam, train track and etc). This is
the context of USA. There are no "government dark fiber" where anyone can just
connected to and run a service provider.

Other things you mentioned are the decision by "business people" not the tech
people per se. Part of it is also government mandate.

Not making excuses just trying to show view point from other side.

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savethefuture
I do appreciate the challenges, but I don't care about it. I pay for the
service to use the service not to appreciate the service you should have
rephrased your question as "Why dont you appreciate the tech behind an isp".
And I love that you said this "ISP are similar to utility." because they
should be treated as such but they are not....

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Safety1stClyde
Because people like ranting and raving about random things.

