
Chronic sleep deprivation suppresses immune system - upen
http://sciencebulletin.org/archives/9813.html
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3princip
I used to like to sleep for as long as possible, then slowly it began to feel
like a waste of time.

Also, having small children affect sleep although not directly, it's the time
you try to claw back after putting them to sleep, pushing it a little later to
get other things done.

After a while it became obvious nothing much was being achieved this way, in
fact my mental acuity seemed to drop substantially.

Then I realized I hadn't been dreaming (or at least remembering dreams) for a
while and that was weird. Slowed down, went to bed as soon as tiredness kicked
in for a few months. Improved my diet which probably helped a lot.

Dreams have returned with a vengence, it feels like all night is one long
dream, I feel better and sharper.

I wish I could sleep less than 7 hours, but my body disagrees.

~~~
ergothus
I agree with everything you listed, but I have one complication. "went to bed
as soon as tiredness kicked in".

Give me a night or two of good sleep...and I won't be tired until 1am. Waking
up for work will then be hell (I don't function well on low sleep).

My body knows when it is tired...but that doesn't match the work schedule :(
When I'm practicing sleep diligence (which comes and goes based on whether
I've been tired a lot lately or not) I have to force myself to go to bed when
I'm not feeling tired. That feeling of sacrificing time is almost as hard to
maintain as being constantly fatigued.

First world problems, but they are my problems.

~~~
stephen_g
Sounds like you could have delayed sleep phase disorder/syndrome. It's just
having a delayed circadian rhythm - not really a disorder except that it's
hard to fit in with 'normal' schedules.

I have a lot of issues with this (my circadian rhythm delay is pretty bad). My
employer tolerates me coming in at 10am but even then I'm still suffering
symptoms of sleep deprivation pretty constantly and don't feel like I can
survive without sleeping in to midday on Saturdays and Sundays...

It's a frustrating condition to have, because while research into circadian
rhythms has generally found that you can't fight against your natural sleep
cycle long-term without experiencing sleep deprivation, pretty much everyone
who has a normal cycle will tell you that you just have to "be more
disiplined", "just wake up the same time every day and you'll get into a
better routine", etc. Even most GPs I've talked to aren't up-to-date with the
latest research and it's been really hard to convince them to refer me to a
sleep specialist! It's also especially bad at work, because management tend to
be older (sleep cycles are usually at peak delay during adolescence, and then
shift earlier as you age) and seem to have an impressive ability to not
understand the condition. But if the science is to be believed, what people
tell me is about as effective as telling a severely clinically depressed
person to "just be happier."

But even for people with more normal (average) cycles, one sleep scientist has
suggested [1] that work shouldn't start until 10am, which would make people
more productive and more alert.

1\. [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/03/12/staff-
should-s...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/03/12/staff-should-start-
work-at-10am-to-avoid-torture-of-sleep-depriv/amp/)

~~~
louthy
> pretty much everyone who has a normal cycle will tell you that you just have
> to "be more disciplined", "just wake up the same time every day and you'll
> get into a better routine", etc

I feel your pain. Been there many times. The way I solved it was to become the
boss.

Daywalkers will never understand. Even if you're an owl rather than a lark
it's looked down upon - and the standard trope of "you're just lazy" come out;
but delayed sleep phase syndrome where it's possible to go in and out of sync
with the day is a real killer for the regular office hours.

I now get significantly more work done than at any time in my career because I
sleep and awake when I want. Of course occasionally I need to be in-sync with
someone (meetings, etc.). But it's relatively easy to have a few things to get
in-sync with if I get good sleep the rest of the time.

~~~
monksy
This many times over. I don't have problems with adapting ot new time zones.
But it is difficult to get on a "standard awake/sleeping" schedule. It's not
for a lack of trying.

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temp246810
I hope to see more and more of these studies.

I've always since I can remember struggled with sleep.

During the periods where I've had it under control everything is just better:
your outlook is more positive, more energy, less anxiety, and on and on and
on.

People say exercise should be put into a pill - I really wish they did this
with sleep.

~~~
marrone12
There are sleeping pills, everything from benadryl to xanax to ambien. It's
just that there are a lot of side effects to any of these approaches.

~~~
coralreef
Melatonin is at least natural, don't know if there are many studies on it
though.

~~~
arielweisberg
I tried Melatonin during a heavy travel stressful period doing interviews.

Getting back off it and falling asleep naturally was not easy for me.

I think conventional dosages may be a bit extreme at 3-5 milligrams.

~~~
dashundchen
I agree on the dosages sold being too high. I'm a terrible sleeper that wakes
up all through the night. I've found taking a fraction, between an eighth and
quarter, of the 3mg pills is enough for me to sleep and wake up refreshed.

Also I've found sleeping at least 7-8 hours is necessary while taking it. Any
less and I feel groggy all morning.

~~~
heimatau
Studies tend to say that any more than 3mg of melatonin, your body will just
evacuate it. Also, taking it more than 5 days is most likely pointless.

~~~
zeroer
I can tell you with personal experience that this is not true. I have taken
30-40mg before bed, and there is a definite difference in my experience from
taking 1-5mg. The sleepiness I felt 30-45 minutes after dosing was the most
extreme sleepiness I've ever experienced in my life, the dreams are mind-
blowing, and I feel tired the next day far beyond what I feel after taking a
smaller dose.

~~~
heimatau
Thanks for your personal experience but I was talking about scientific studies
[1].

\- [1] -
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12076414](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12076414)

\- [2] (a narrow google search that i'm sure i could find more) -
[https://www.google.com/#q=melatonin+dosage+site:.gov+OR+site...](https://www.google.com/#q=melatonin+dosage+site:.gov+OR+site:.edu)

~~~
zeroer
I don't see anything in that study about excess melatonin being evacuated. The
paper only talks about effectiveness as a sleep aid.

~~~
heimatau
Under the main results section "Daily doses of melatonin between 0.5 and 5mg
are similarly effective, except that people fall asleep faster and sleep
better after 5mg than 0.5mg. Doses above 5mg appear to be no more effective."
[1, from parent comment]

Upon further research with the link I provided. It seems that for older people
dosage levels should be introduced small and then increased, this study talks
about the effectiveness of 50mg in older patients [1]

[1] -
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24802882](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24802882)

~~~
zeroer
I don't see anything in your comment about excess melatonin being evacuated.

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nine_k
I wish having healthy sleep became vogue. Imagine people humble-bragging about
the quality of their dreams, about sleeping 8 hours or more, having enough
self-discipline to routinely go to bed by 10:30pm, etc. Imagine sleep, it's
quality, the freshness of body and mind it gives, became a subject of
conspicuous consumption, a symbol of higher status. "I work smarter, not
harder", etc.

Dies not sound implausible to me.

~~~
katzgrau
Dude, I'm in bed right now (9:30pm). After I'm done typing this out I'll read
my book for a bit and go to sleep. I'll prob get up around 6am with 7.5 - 8
hours of sleep, work out, and be at my desk by 9.

I bootstrapped my business and I work 8-10 hour days. I wasn't always this
way. Getting on a healthy sleep and exercise schedule is the best thing I've
ever done.

The hardest part is, right, rejecting the SV mantra that you need to work
every waking hour and drink Soylent if you wanna be successful.

As they say, it's a marathon.

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Mz
I like seeing this, but: "Correlation does not prove causation."

I have a serious, incurable medical condition. Getting healthier has
dramatically improved my ability to sleep. So, while lack of sleep may well
cause health problems, that relationship can run the other direction. I see
nothing in this piece which addresses that possibility.

~~~
maxxxxx
Most of mind-body connections go both ways. Do one and the other factor will
improve. Improve the other factor and first will get better. It's almost never
a one-way connection.

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tbrownaw
It's always interesting to see things that everyone knows, turn out to be
things that we don't _actually_ formally know yet.

~~~
sharkweek
Or most notably, just kind of ignore - I know some of the things I do are bad
for me, but I do them anyways...

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Mc_Big_G
I keep telling people it's making them sick to only sleep 4 hours a night and
they keep telling me that "It's just how I am". No, it's not. It's how you've
forced your body to behave after years of staying up too late and drinking
coffee too late and drinking alcohol and not caring about sleep. It's not
normal. It's not "how you are". You're not "totally fine" on 4 hours of sleep.
You are fooling yourself.

~~~
snark42
There's a DEC2 mutation, possibly others, that let some people only sleep 4
hours and function fine. Maybe not all of these people, but I bet some of them
have some sort of mutation on DEC2.

~~~
Mc_Big_G
True for less than 1% of the population.

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corybrown
Nice to see a well done twin study here, but I'm guessing this was
conventional wisdom for most.

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overcast
Sorry, but, this required a new study? Sleep is the most consistent way of
preventing, and curing ailments. At even the slightest hint of feeling run
down, I'll go to bed extra early.

~~~
shados
Considering how little concern people put into it (eg: how difficult it is to
handle disruptive neighbors at night, how little concern is put about noise
near residential areas, etc), we sure as hell need more of those studies.

Because as of right now, nobody cares.

~~~
rhinoceraptor
I sleep with an eye mask and ear plugs every night. Once you're used to that,
it's pretty hard to fall asleep without them.

~~~
sundvor
Yeah, something similar - started sleeping next to an air purifier (white
noise) and pulling a 2nd pillow on top of my head for additional random noise
suppression. I struggle to sleep without this, unless I'm wrecked with
exhaustion from exercise.

Wish I had thought of the 2nd pillow in my younger years..

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princetontiger
I sleep 8 hours and wake up automatically. If I get 6 or less, it feels like a
bus hit me.

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Lxr
The article does not mention if they actually showed causality. What if there
is a third variable (coffee, acquired virus, anxiety, lack of exercise) that
simultaneously causes lack of sleep and a depressed immune system? The cause
could even be the other way around - I know I don't sleep well when I'm
feeling sick.

~~~
true_religion
When you show a correlation like this, you can still take action.

Even without knowing the underlying reasons behind the issue, you can at least
diagnose based on the easily visible corrleated event----sleep depravation is
much easier to test for than the comorbid immune supression.

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ge96
ha I could attest to that.

I also used to experience those sleep-paralysis events Jesus those were
terrifying. Thankfully I have not had that in a long time.

But yeah, sleep is good. My body feels sore all over when not sleeping for a
long time, get sick easier, can't even watch tv or do anything, you just hate
yourself hahaha or briefly go delirious then go back to hating your current
situation, can't enjoy anything.

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GotAnyMegadeth
Anecdote: I used to sleep about 8 hours a day, but then had a long period of
anxiety and depression that caused me to average about 4 hours sleep a day.
This lasted for about 9 months, maybe more. During this time my brain was on
constant overdrive, thinking about everything all the time, for most of that
time I didn't notice any loss in alertness or clarity. I was particularly
anxious about my friends and was out seeing different friends about 13 nights
a fortnight. I was probably getting drunk about 3 nights a week. When I get
depressed I don't really eat much, and I lost about 17% of my body weight. It
was terrible, but in all this time I never got ill at all, not even a mild
cold or cough. I missed the whole of winter 2015/2016 cold season, and I've
got ill at least twice a year in winter for as long as I can remember. I am
even ill now!

I was speculating the other day with a friend as to why this might be. I
suggested that because I wasn't looking after my house I was pretty much
sleeping in mould and I have heard anecdotally that that can have antibiotics
that may have had an affect. He suggested that in extreme stress your body is
less likely to overreact to a mild infection, and so maybe any infections may
have much less obvious symptoms.

I'm pretty much better now and am attempting to sleep 7h30 a day, but it
really does feel like a waste of time.

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EternalData
It's fascinating to think of a counterfactual world where humans don't need
sleep -- sometimes I wonder how much more could be done. Sleep seems to be a
biological constraint that could be optimized around.

~~~
RugnirViking
Its something i've put thought into and it seems that it would be a truly
incredible advantage to any species to remove it, so there must be some
fundamental reason that is preferable than having almost twice as much time in
the day. I believe that the primary function of sleep is that it is an
inexorable part of learning, but more studies are required in this area

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imcoconut
gotta get good sleep.

