
Firefighting foam heats up coal fire debate (2010) - cjg
https://www.earthmagazine.org/article/hot-hell-firefighting-foam-heats-coal-fire-debate-centralia-pa
======
i_feel_great
"Coal fires are a problem all over the world. Such fires endanger nearby
communities, waste precious resources and produce tons of noxious and
greenhouse gases. Centralia is not the only coal fire burning in the United
States. In fact, it’s just one of 38 burning in Pennsylvania alone. The
hundreds of underground fires in the United States, from Pennsylvania to
Alabama to Wyoming, combined with the thousands thought to be burning in
China, India and elsewhere, are one of the largest sources of carbon dioxide
and pollution on Earth."

What really?

~~~
gpm
Wikipedia claims they account for 3% of CO2 emissions.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_seam_fire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_seam_fire)
(at the end of the intro paragraphs)

~~~
EamonnMR
Considering that they're a pure nuisance with no economic value and plenty of
danger due to area denial, and 3% is nothing to sneeze at, that would suggest
that they should be a priority to greenhouse gas reduction.

~~~
gambiting
Like with everything else, the question is always the same - who pays for it?

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ars
This article is from 2010 - any update in the last 8 years?

Here's his facebook page:
[https://www.facebook.com/groups/541222132634503/](https://www.facebook.com/groups/541222132634503/)

The company website is down, but he's posting. I suspect he's still trying but
his company no longer is.

~~~
Lobsterosity
Most recent I can find: [https://www.history.com/news/mine-fire-burning-
more-50-years...](https://www.history.com/news/mine-fire-burning-
more-50-years-ghost-town)

Kind of a bum article but no progress as far as I can tell.

Recent court case re gov't attempt to kick last citizens out. They got a
settlement and are allowed to stay until they die at which time gov't will
take land via eminent domain. [https://wnep.com/2013/10/30/agreement-reached-
with-remaing-c...](https://wnep.com/2013/10/30/agreement-reached-with-remaing-
centralia-residents/)

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joshstrange
I've read about this fire before and on the surface it seems crazy to think we
have all of these underground fires happening that no one really thinks or
cares about. I understand how we got to where we are but it still makes me
stop in amazement that this is a thing that is actively happening.

~~~
azurezyq
It's actually already taken care of. Basically, most of them are beyond what
the current technology can achieve.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_seam_fire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_seam_fire)

This is a good read. So the one mentioned in OP may work for some but it may
be only useful for very limited set of these fires. We know too little about
things under the surface. I'd say we have zero chance to conquer them until we
can have a deep earth CT (just like CT of your brain).

60M for a technology which would be the future, yes. 60M for something only
works for a few limited cases, probably not.

~~~
dmix
How far along are we with ground penetrating radar?

I’d imagine if they struggle to find tunnels dug under borders of high tech
countries that they will probably struggle with these.

~~~
burfog
You could look via seismographs and small explosions, as is done for some
kinds of resource exploration.

Plain old drilling is pretty effective though.

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mirimir
I have one quibble.

> Using water can cause steam explosions.

It's actually worse than that.

2(C) + O2 + H2O → CO + CO2 + H2

So you have a H2/CO explosion. That's what happened at Chernobyl. Very hot
graphite moderator, plus cooling water.

Edit: lose extra O

~~~
Skunkleton
To be fair, some other things also happened at Chernobyl.

~~~
mirimir
True. But wasn't it the hydrogen explosion that popped the containment? Not
that there was all that much containment, in any case.

------
EamonnMR
For an exhaustive account of the fire: [https://www.amazon.com/Fire-
Underground-Ongoing-Tragedy-Cent...](https://www.amazon.com/Fire-Underground-
Ongoing-Tragedy-Centralia/dp/0762754273) For a similar fire that was
eventually contained: [https://www.amazon.com/West-Carbondale-Pennsylvania-
Heritage...](https://www.amazon.com/West-Carbondale-Pennsylvania-Heritage-
Books/dp/1589662121)

Both are very interesting reading if you find these as fascinating as I do.

------
cf498
[https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/fire-in-the-
ho...](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/fire-in-the-
hole-77895126/)

I heard about the phenomenon before, but was stumped how long they can burn.

>Many ancient fires like those still burn, from the Canadian Arctic to
southeast Australia. Scientists estimate that Australia’s BurningMountain, the
oldest known coal fire, has burned for 6,000 years. In the 19th century,
explorers mistook the smoking summit for a volcano.

------
codewritinfool
How much is a fire like this contributing to CO2 emissions? Seems like 60
million is a small price to pay if it stops ongoing burning and combustion
products.

~~~
btrettel
Large smoldering fires contribute roughly 15% of total greenhouse gas
emissions according to Dr. Guillermo Rein.

[http://guillermo-rein.blogspot.com/2016/06/erc-haze-
reducing...](http://guillermo-rein.blogspot.com/2016/06/erc-haze-reducing-
burden-of-smouldering.html)

~~~
jcranmer
Note that he is not referring to coal seam fires. He's referring to Southeast
Asian peat fires, a substantial portion of which are started to clear way for
palm oil plantations and other agricultural purposes.

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EGreg
Can’t they just enclose it so it uses up all the oxygen? Or detonate charges?

~~~
wheelerwj
if you knew all of the entrances and didn't have to worry about permeation,
sure. But who really knows how many possible places air is entering that fire.

~~~
EamonnMR
There are uncharted mine shafts, some where homes used to be because people
would mine under their basements. There are also sinkholes which you can see
in pictures of the highway.

~~~
EGreg
Can’t you map those by seeing where air is still flowing in? Release some dust
and map its flow. Or better yet just cover the surface with foam.

~~~
throwaway2048
Its not just mineshafts where it burns, it burns directly underground where it
has never been mined before due to permeable rock.

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gwmullin
Can we not just start a gofundme campaign for this and bypass the government
funding decisions?

~~~
recursive
We can.

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rosshemsley
Could this actually be a profitable business, selling carbon offsets?

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ape4
Its coal fire day on Hacker News! (there was another post about a possible
coal fire on the Titanic)

~~~
Johnny555
I think it's safe to say that _that_ one has been extinguished!

~~~
Skunkleton
This one will sort itself out. Once sea levels rise high enough, the mine will
be submerged and the fire will go out.

~~~
nostrademons
Sea level rise if all ice melts: 230 ft.

Sea level rise to historical maximum: 660 ft. (100m years ago; the difference
is largely because of thermal expansion of water and changing shape of ocean
basins.)

Elevation of Centralia, PA: 1467 ft.

~~~
Skunkleton
Ok fine, I guess we have to do something about this.

~~~
nostrademons
Nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

~~~
TeMPOraL
"We got ourselves a pretty big fire. Gonna need a huge bang."

[https://youtu.be/U8Vh3h9i2Uk?t=37](https://youtu.be/U8Vh3h9i2Uk?t=37)

------
nasmorn
Really crazy how untold billions are spent on climate change mitigation and
they can’t raise the 60m to put out this fire.

~~~
dang
Please don't take HN threads on generic flamewar tangents. They lead to the
local equivalent of coal fires.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
nasmorn
Sorry I actually meant it is tragic that this cannot be funded given that it
is such a high climate change priority according to the article. The
mitigation would be fairly cheap and long lasting, it might burn another 50
years

~~~
throwaway2048
The thing is, many things have been tried, nothing has been particularly
effective.

