
Crafting Plausible Maps (2015) - fanf2
https://m.mythcreants.com/blog/crafting-plausible-maps/
======
danarmak
If you're making a fantasy world (which is not a past or future Earth in
disguise), you don't have to stick to plate tectonics and volcanism as they
exist on Earth. Geology varies a lot between planets, even in our solar
system!

That's without even going into whatever makes your world "fantasy". Un-Earthly
geology could be plot relevant (The Fifth Season, N. K. Jemisin). Or it could
be a bit of colorful background that's still scientifically valid. Maybe you
live on a tidally locked moon, or a geologically dead world with a cold core,
or an ocean world with an ice crust (not of water necessarily). Maybe the
locally important geological phenomena come not from inside the planet
(plates, volcanoes) but outside (asteroids, meteors). Maybe your planet's
liquid core has currents so strong that islands float around at meters per
second and bounce off each other.

Fantasy only needs to be consistent with yourself - not with our Earth.
Otherwise where's the fun in worldbuilding?

Relevant article from the same site: [https://mythcreants.com/blog/should-
your-fantasy-world-resem...](https://mythcreants.com/blog/should-your-fantasy-
world-resemble-earth/)

~~~
jmilloy
> Otherwise where's the fun in worldbuilding.

I think it's only fun if you operate within constraints. Choosing Earth-
geology is a pretty reasonable constraint that allows you to more quickly get
on to other aspects of worldbuilding (the ones that most fantasy worldbuilding
focuses on anyways). What you are describing sounds more like science fiction
worldbuilding! Plenty of room for overlap and deviation, of course.

~~~
danarmak
I don't see a reason why playing with geology in particular should be
restricted to science fiction and not fantasy.

Authors often build geologically inconsistent worlds. The article has
suggestions for fixing that by changing the geology to match Earth, but that
will force the climate etc. to match Earth too. I think if an author wants to
build a world with a geology different from Earth that's not a bad thing -
they should just notice this and make sure it's consistent and has an
explanation for being the way it is.

~~~
bluGill
Consistency is a constraint. Authors have unwritten contracts with their
readers. You cannot destroy the readers immersion with the story with
something that doesn't fit (readers will get mad and throw the book down). You
cannot spend so much time explaining things that there is no action (this
makes for a boring story that is never read).

A formula romance cannot solve the problem of a long standing antagonist by
having the hero grab a magic wand from nowhere and kill him - readers of
romance generally assume a very earth like world because the story is about
the romance and changing the world to add and explain magic is a distraction.
So the standard course of action is for the hero to use a gun - guns already
exist and so very little explanation needs to be spent on where the hero gets
the gun before the story goes back to the romantic parts the reader is
interested in. That isn't to say the hero cannot use a magic wand in a romance
story, but magic needs to be introduced by page 2 at the latest - and some
readers will decide that they don't want to read your book because magic is
involved.

Note that non-fiction doesn't have that constraint. I can introduce the magic
wand used to kill right at the moment in history where the magic wand was
used. Readers will go "what", and do some double checking and discover that a
magic wand was actually used (more likely the research will discover that
nobody knows what was really used, but it looked to observers like a magic
wand so that is what everyone says), then you will go back to my story
satisfied that it really happened that way despite being unbelievable.

~~~
dsr_
More to the point, a speculative fiction (i.e. sf/fantasy/horror) should not
needlessly multiply entities. If your story is _about_ geology, or needs a
particular geological arrangement to explain things, then by all means mention
it. But if your story can use known plate tectonics, or takes place in an
Earth-analog environment where the geography you want already exists, you
don't need to explain it and you shouldn't bother doing so.

(There are probably exceptions. Douglas Adams could make a lengthy digression
on geology interesting, amusing, and then call back to it half a book later in
order to be side-splittingly funny.)

~~~
barrkel
I don't think sf / fantasy / horror genres are strongly related to
"speculative fiction". Speculative means "based on conjecture", and conjecture
means "formed on the basis of incomplete information".

Incomplete information isn't what I think is at the heart of fantasy, and
usually isn't what I think is at the heart of SF either. SF is usually a story
about an idea rather than a character; it's not speculation. Fantasy is
usually a heightened, exaggerated world - a world with the saturation and
contrast turned right up; again, not speculation.

Speculative fiction I'd place in a niche area of hard SF that is more
concerned with futurism than ideas per se. That is, it's interested in
predicting how today turns out with some reasonable technological advance and
specifically how the world deals with that advance, whether on a global level
or via a character study.

As to needlessly multiplying entities, I agree, with caveats. It's related to
Chekhov's gun: don't introduce elements that don't matter (and similarly, if
you rely on something later on, ensure it's foreshadowed rather than
parachuted in as a deus ex machina). OTOH, a close adherence to Chekhov's gun
can make stories very predictable, for people who pay lots of attention to
plots. And other people come for prose style, and still others for world-
building; neither of which are overly concerned with omitting details.

~~~
dsr_
Sorry, as a term of art, "speculative fiction" is pretty well established as
the conglomeration of science fiction, fantasy, horror, and related fiction
like fairy tales and superheroes.

~~~
barrkel
No more than Indians would be a term of art for native Americans.

~~~
dsr_
I'm sorry, but on this matter you are making a completely inapt comparison.

The usage by modern fans and critics: [http://www.sf-
encyclopedia.com/entry/speculative_fiction](http://www.sf-
encyclopedia.com/entry/speculative_fiction)

I also refer you to all of the review series done by James Nicoll using the
term as I described -
[http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/](http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/)

There are also 34 references for you to follow in this Wikipedia article.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speculative_fiction](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speculative_fiction)

------
chippy
If you want to actually create you own fictional map you can checkout what I
consider my favourite geospatial project of all time: OpenGeoFiction
[http://opengeofiction.net/](http://opengeofiction.net/)

Imagine an OpenStreetMap (it actually uses the same stack) where you can
create your own fictional land - and where you can potentially interact with
other people's creations too.

From their FAQ: " OpenGeofiction (OGF) is based on the OpenStreetMap software
platform, which means that all map editors and other tools suitable for
OpenStreetMap can be used to build OGF's fictional world. This world is set in
modern times, so it doesn't have orcs or elves, but rather power plants,
motorways and housing projects. But also picturesque old towns, beautiful
national parks and lonely beaches.

Different users view OGF in different ways. For some, it's an exciting
creative adventure, a challenging construction puzzle, or an epic tapestry of
interwoven stories. For others, it's a relaxing meditation, an immersion in
imagination, or perhaps the largest piece of artwork ever created — equal in
size to the Earth itself. "

edits - It's not that immediately easy to find the good mapping -
[http://opengeofiction.net/#map=11/36.4055/119.2868](http://opengeofiction.net/#map=11/36.4055/119.2868)
or
[http://opengeofiction.net/#map=15/1.6975/42.5115](http://opengeofiction.net/#map=15/1.6975/42.5115)
is one example, and I find
[http://opengeofiction.net/history](http://opengeofiction.net/history) could
be useful to see where people are working on.

~~~
DanAndersen
Fascinating!

This makes me wonder: has anyone tried using machine learning to generate
satellite views of a fictional map like this? It seems like something that
could be done -- because we have both the ground truth satellite data from
Earth, and also a good representation of Earth's roads/map data from OSM, one
should be able to infer, given an input OSM map (and some other data like
lat/lon or proximity to coastlines), what a plausible satellite image would
look like for that map.

~~~
chippy
Gosh that sounds a wonderful ML idea!

------
seanalltogether
> Humans (especially pre-industrial, agricultural humans) like to settle near
> rivers.

Apropos of nothing, back during the rush to build the transcontinental
railroad, the Union Pacific thought Cheyenne would become the new hub of the
west and Denver would turn into a ghost town. But a quick look at a map shows
the abundance of rivers and waterways flowing through Denver while Cheyenne
has just a small river flowing through. Not even a railroad was enough to
overcome the lack of resources around Cheyenne.

~~~
niftich
The governor of Colorado and Denver businessmen, including David Moffat, were
worried that their city would be eclipsed by Cheyenne, and their own neighbor,
the City of Golden, so they raised money to build the 'Denver Pacific'
railroad between Cheyenne and Denver. Around the same time, 'Kansas Pacific'
built a railroad from Kansas City to Denver, and Denver became a railroad
junction in August 1870. Union Pacific's bridge between Council Bluffs and
Omaha wasn't completed until March 1872, requiring a ferry trip across the
Missouri that was a widely-recognized annoyance [1].

This railroading victory revitalized Denver at a very opportune time.

Moffat continued to dedicate his fortunes on continuing a railway directly
west across the Rockies from Denver. He died in 1911 with his railroad
companies largely bankrupt and incomplete, but in 1928 one of the successor
companies opened the Moffat Tunnel, named in his memory, along the right-of-
way he laid out. Now, the route from Denver west to Nevada is owned by Union
Pacific, despite having been built by competitors to UP's (and CP's) route
through Nevada-Ogden-Wyoming.

[1]
[http://www.cprr.org/Museum/Reports/pictures/capture_00309.ht...](http://www.cprr.org/Museum/Reports/pictures/capture_00309.html)

------
kibwen
Fun read. This reminds me of Rich Burlew's (of Order Of The Stick) series of
articles on designing fantasy worlds:
[http://www.giantitp.com/articles/xO3dVM8EDKJPlKxmVoG.html](http://www.giantitp.com/articles/xO3dVM8EDKJPlKxmVoG.html)

 _> And the fractal pattern of rivers is directional: rivers will always merge
as they flow toward the coast, never split._

Interestingly, it is possible for rivers to split, sort of. Rivers naturally
meander, and it is possible for two adjacent rivers to meander such that they
intersect each other. Most of the combined flow will end up along the steeper
path, true, but that doesn't mean the shallower path will dry up completely.
For a real-world example, this is basically the catastrophe that Louisiana's
Old River Control Structure has been staving off for decades.

~~~
jcranmer
Rivers can totally form large deltas (dozens, maybe a hundred miles wide for
the largest) where the main path of the river is unclear. The Amazon, the
Nile, the Rhine, and, of course, the Brahmaputra-Ganges.

Outside of deltas, it is possible, although very rare, for rivers to connect
to each other and be able to transfer flow bidirectionally. The Casiquiare
Canal
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casiquiare_canal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casiquiare_canal))
is the largest such example (despite its name, it is a natural river, not man-
made). It causes part of the Orinoco River to flow into the Rio Negro and
thence the Amazon.

~~~
kibwen
To the author's credit, I did omit a footnote that called out deltas as
exceptions. But yes, such clear-cut exceptions to the rule are both quite rare
and make for fascinating geography--which incidentally make them perfect for
fantasy maps! :) What is Middle-Earth without the Lonely Mountain, after all?

------
mastax
If you like this, you'll love
[https://reddit.com/r/worldbuilding](https://reddit.com/r/worldbuilding)

~~~
wikwocket
[https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/](https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/)
is also a great community, with great discussions. Part science, part fantasy.
People tedn to post long fun answers that remind me of XKCD's What If? series.

------
petewailes
If you're interested in fantasy maps, I'd recommend
[https://watabou.itch.io/medieval-fantasy-city-
generator](https://watabou.itch.io/medieval-fantasy-city-generator) as an
interesting tool.

Also, if you're into tabletop RPGs, I'm going to give a shout out to my own
blog - [https://wail.es/](https://wail.es/)

------
maze-le
Dwarf Fortress seems to do a really good job at creating plausible fantasy
maps. Mountains are created as blobs near the edges of a continent, without
90° directional changes. Rivers flow from mountain ranges to basins.
Vegetation is dependent on the overall climate of a region. Settlements are
created according to race-specific traits (dwarfs in the mountains, humans at
rivers, elves in forests). Volcanoes are an exception, as the seem to be
randomly dotted all over the map.

All in all, Zach, the Dwarf Fortress creator seems to have put some thought
into the (game-wise) mundane task of world-creation.

~~~
QuantumYeti
Tarn Adams has a pretty interesting talk about procedural myth generation
(starts at about 9:00): [http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1023372/Practices-in-
Procedural](http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1023372/Practices-in-Procedural)

------
Waterluvian
I find it funny how "fantasy" is so templated. There's a right and wrong way
to make a "fantasy" map. In honesty, I want to explore the bad example at the
bottom of the page. I want to know what created those very rigid and
artificial looking landforms! The "good" example looks like a generic island.

~~~
Finnucane
Some (more than a few) years ago I was in the position of reading slush for
Tor books. This was back in the day when it was all mailed in on paper.
Unsurprisingly, many of the fantasy submissions came with the author's own,
generally hand-drawn, map. They varied quite a bit in terms of quality, but
were generally recognizable as being in the tradition of what was usually
printed in fantasy novels. ("Land of the pointy mountains"). Since they were
sometimes disposable copies, I took to keeping the maps in a binder. For all I
know, it's still there.

------
clarkmoody
Here's a Twitter account that generates interesting procedural maps:
[https://twitter.com/unchartedatlas](https://twitter.com/unchartedatlas)

~~~
wonderbear
That is amazing. Also now I've learned about NaNoGenMo.

------
hownottowrite
"Here Dragons Abound"[0] is another interesting take on this topic. The guy's
been working for about a year now to beef up Martin O'Leary's work[1].
Fascinating read through if you start at the first post.

[0]
[https://heredragonsabound.blogspot.com](https://heredragonsabound.blogspot.com)

[1] [http://mewo2.com/notes/terrain/](http://mewo2.com/notes/terrain/)

------
shanusmagnus
There used to be software called Mojoworld that would allow you to do this,
using scientific modeling of various things (geology, botany, climate stuff,
etc.) to make the generation realistic:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MojoWorld_Generator](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MojoWorld_Generator)

It hasn't existed for a long time, which is sad. Anyone know good (or even not
so good) alternatives?

~~~
trynewideas
Free or open-source:

Tectonics.js:
[http://davidson16807.github.io/tectonics.js/](http://davidson16807.github.io/tectonics.js/)

Torben's Planet Map Generator:
[http://topps.diku.dk/torbenm/maps.msp](http://topps.diku.dk/torbenm/maps.msp)

donjon World Generators:
[https://donjon.bin.sh/scifi/world/](https://donjon.bin.sh/scifi/world/),
[https://donjon.bin.sh/fantasy/world/](https://donjon.bin.sh/fantasy/world/)

VPPlanetGenerator:
[https://toolslib.net/downloads/viewdownload/73-vpplanetgener...](https://toolslib.net/downloads/viewdownload/73-vpplanetgenerator/)

TerraJ: [http://terraj.sourceforge.net/](http://terraj.sourceforge.net/)

Wilbur:
[http://www.fracterra.com/wilbur.html](http://www.fracterra.com/wilbur.html)

Platec:
[https://sourceforge.net/projects/platec/](https://sourceforge.net/projects/platec/)

-

Commercial/paid:

Experilous Worldbuilder ($8):
[https://experilous.com/1/store/offer/worldbuilder](https://experilous.com/1/store/offer/worldbuilder)
(previously linked to on HN:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8681899](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8681899)
)

Space Engine: [http://spaceengine.org/](http://spaceengine.org/)

-

Theory, code, and links:

Red Blob Games: [http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~amitp/game-
programming/...](http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~amitp/game-
programming/polygon-map-generation/),
[http://www.redblobgames.com/x/1728-elevation-
control/](http://www.redblobgames.com/x/1728-elevation-control/) (previously
on HN:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14793809](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14793809)
)

Procedural Content Generation Wiki: [http://pcg.wikidot.com/pcg-algorithm:map-
generation](http://pcg.wikidot.com/pcg-algorithm:map-generation)

------
panglott
The single best resource for fantasy cartographers is the Cartographer's Guild
forum. [https://cartographersguild.com](https://cartographersguild.com)

Mark Rosenfelder's site is an amazing rabbithole of world-building.
[http://www.zompist.com/howto2.htm](http://www.zompist.com/howto2.htm)
[http://www.zompist.com/virtuver.htm](http://www.zompist.com/virtuver.htm)
He's also written _The Language Construction Kit_ and _The Planet Construction
Kit_.

There's some great Google Plus communities around fantasy cartography, like
Map-Making in Games
[https://plus.google.com/communities/105897774940532146183](https://plus.google.com/communities/105897774940532146183)

------
wonderbear
> Most mountains are the children of lusty continental plates, birthed from
> scandalous collisions between landmasses too attracted to each other for
> their own good.

I laughed. That was a fun read.

------
serhei
The reasoning on this guy's website is often pretty fascinating:
[http://www.worlddreambank.org/P/PLANETS.HTM](http://www.worlddreambank.org/P/PLANETS.HTM)
\-- these are entire fantasy planets. For a warm-up exercise, he started out
by tilting the Earth in different ways and working out how that would affect
climate and biomes.

------
elcapitan
Reminds me of this great GDC talk:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVGonAUUQ8c](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVGonAUUQ8c)
(which is more about plausible game worlds in general).

------
trynewideas
Also check out Jonathan Roberts, the artist of (among other fantasy maps) the
official map folio for the Lands of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones.

His blog is full of both granular and general advice:
[http://www.fantasticmaps.com/](http://www.fantasticmaps.com/)

And his article in the Kobold Guide to Worldbuilding is my go-to reference for
using cartography as a worldbuilding device: [https://www.amazon.com/Kobold-
Guide-Worldbuilding-Wolfgang-B...](https://www.amazon.com/Kobold-Guide-
Worldbuilding-Wolfgang-Baur/dp/1936781115)

------
danschumann
Oshkosh was built because of the lumber industry (they would fill up Lake
Winnebago, which has access to Lake Michigan via the Fox River). I think
cities scale to the number of natural resources near them, and synergies as
well.

------
sjezewski
This reminds me of the odd property that bends in a river are separated by
about 6 times the width of a river. And this seems to happen pretty often in
nature.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alluvial_river#Meander_wavelen...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alluvial_river#Meander_wavelength)

Way back in school they'd issue this in the form of a question to undergrads
just to see how they'd model it / try and answer. I'm not sure if it's
understood why the number is '6'

------
tripletmass
An ADnD 3.5 world (or its lusty +7 tectonic plates) should attempt to ascend
independently of life on it. Developmental SEMATEMS-oriented maps should
emphasize multithreaded geocrust processes focused on quarterly/annual
reporting that makes sense to owners of spherical viewing apparatus, and that
makes rewards in a twisty maze of lunch spots (subject to crafting schema.)

------
logfromblammo
I wish I could take all that advice back in time and give it to JRR Tolkien. I
have lost count of the number of times I have looked at a map of Middle-Earth
and thought, "mountains don't do that".

~~~
bbctol
I just have to assume there are sinister magicks that make mountain ranges at,
uh, right angles. [http://www.tor.com/2017/08/01/tolkiens-map-and-the-messed-
up...](http://www.tor.com/2017/08/01/tolkiens-map-and-the-messed-up-mountains-
of-middle-earth/)

~~~
gonubalabala
One could draw a few lines at right angles on this map as well
[http://bogost.com/middle-earth.jpg](http://bogost.com/middle-earth.jpg)

~~~
arethuza
Amusingly that map places Weathertop fairly close to the Tap O'Noth which is
ancient hilltop fortress where the stonework was vitrified (i.e. melted,
apparently on purpose).

When I was a teenager reading LotR I always imagined that Weathertop was like
the Tap O'Noth - it is quite a distinctly shaped hill (having a dirty great
ancient fortress on top) and can be seen from a long way away.

------
rurounijones
All of my fantasy maps start with drawing the Giant Star Turtle

