
MDMA as a Probe and Treatment for Social Behaviors (2016) - bookofjoe
https://www.cell.com/fulltext/S0092-8674(16)30853-4
======
empath75
> How have we come to a point where we are arguing that a DEA schedule 1 drug
> (i.e., no accepted medical use) may be among the most promising lead
> therapies for psychiatric disease and a powerful probe of important brain
> functions?

I’ll make the observation that if recreational drugs weren’t doing interesting
things to the brain, people wouldn’t use them, but psychedelics in particular
do near miraculous seeming things with reproducibility that prescription drug
companies would kill for in a candidate for a commercial drug.

~~~
doitLP
What reproducibility are you referring to?

LSD was marketed as a medicine under the name Delysid for over 10 years mid-
century but only afterward did it gain a schedule 1 classification after it
was declared to have no medical uses.

~~~
leoh
LSD almost certainly has medical value when administered properly; viz.
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_Grove_Experiment?wpro...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_Grove_Experiment?wprov=sfti1).
It was banned in spite of its medical potential, not because of it.

~~~
doitLP
Those studies were pretty terribly done, with no control and other confounding
factors. Maybe indicative of more study but nowhere near substantial or
reproducible.

Edit: Replying with a 45 year-old study with extremely low scientific merit is
silly especially on HN. I was asking specifically for references to the
reproducibility op mentioned.

~~~
worik
Modern studies:

For the terminally ill: [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/professor-
david-nu...](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/professor-david-nutt-
why-i-think-the-terminally-ill-should-take-lsd-10092213.html)

Treating depression:
[https://www.ft.com/content/2c4121de-c5d6-11e5-808f-8231cd716...](https://www.ft.com/content/2c4121de-c5d6-11e5-808f-8231cd71622e)
[https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/mar/05/psychedelic-...](https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/mar/05/psychedelic-
drugs-like-lsd-could-be-used-to-treat-depression-study-suggests)

Microdosing: [https://psyarxiv.com/gk4jd/](https://psyarxiv.com/gk4jd/)

~~~
doitLP
Thank you

~~~
e1g
If you're interested in the topic of medical history of psychedelics, I would
highly recommend "How to Change Your Mind" by Michael Pollan of nutrition
fame. He decides to experiment with psychedelics for the first time in his
late 50s, and the book describes his journey as well as changes in personal
philosophy. He masterfully combines history lessons and personal experiences
to paint an informative picture of where this topics might head.

In NYC, for example, it is now perfectly legal to get a heavy dosage of
ketamine administered by Columbia University doctors (see
[https://www.columbiadoctors.org/specialties/psychiatry-
psych...](https://www.columbiadoctors.org/specialties/psychiatry-
psychology/our-services/ketamine-program))

~~~
atomical
It's perfectly legal to get ketamine from any doctor! The program you linked
costs $650/infusion.

> A typical case would be 8-12 infusions over 4-6 weeks.

That's $7,800 for a month of treatment. That's a lot of money when considering
that ketamine is not a cure and the patient will need future treatments.

I'm taking 250mg sublingual every day and paying ~$3000/year. Most of the cost
is taxis, planes, and shipping because I'm out of state and have to fly in to
see my doctor. If I lived in Maryland the cost would be much lower.

Also, if infusion clinic docs weren't bankrupting patients by picking the most
expensive (read: lucrative) ROA the cost would be much cheaper.

------
golergka
> MDMA, better known as the recreational drug “ecstasy,”

> clubgoers and college students primarily know MDMA as “ecstasy”

Not exactly. "Ecstasy" is usually the name of pills that have MDMA as a main
ingridient, but also often contain MDA, amphetamine, methamphetamine,
mephedrone and other similar drugs.

If you consider consuming MDMA, always search the pure crystal MDMA if you
can, by the way. It's usually these other ingredients (mixed in to "push
through" a user's tolerance level) that are responsible for the worst of
adverse effects and neurotoxicity.

~~~
tempguy9999
I had some pills, supposedly E tabs, which gave me a quick up. Nice, but they
weren't pure MDMA though it took me a fair while to realise that.

I suspect, without evidence, that they had methamphetamine mixed in (they
started working in as little as 10 minutes). That benefits the dealer as they
clearly "work" so no complaints from the buyers, and in a strange way may
benefit the user as they won't start popping more because they think they have
a dud, and real MDMA takes maybe 25 to 45 minutes to start, and the effects
cam be subtle and overlooked particularly if you are new to them.

It's a strange argument, and please note I use the word 'benefit' here in a
very odd way - meth is neurotoxic, so it's really not the right word. And
mixing random stuff in, also bad.

Also, I once was given an E which was huge, I broke it into quarters and that
may have saved me a trip to hospital or the morgue. It was vastly too strong.
Also had some other tabs which I suspect were pure meth (I'm guessing but they
are the only thing that I could find described that started working so fast,
and caused bruxism) which I thankfully broke in half. They were overwhelmingly
strong.

So the advice to break up tabs and take the pieces _slowly_ (and don't assume
pill A has the same composition or strength as pill B apparently from the same
batch) is very well founded. It has definitely saved me hospital trips and
wasting NHS money. You have an entire night, don't rush!

~~~
golergka
There's an excellent word in Russian, кайфожор, (I can't adequately translate
to English - it's more or less "glutton of high"), which describes behaviour
that stands behind most of drug user's health problems. Basically, it's a
desire to get high, on anything, at any cost, which drives people to do the
most stupid things with alcohol and drugs. Sadly, that's also the most paying
client base, so you see a lot of drug producers catering to this audience
specifically, always emphasising the strength of substances as a primary
selling point. Among hundreds of shops on the marketplace, 99% talk about how
strong their stuff is and how it can beat tolerance and almost none - about
health.

~~~
tempguy9999
Such behaviour is exactly what is causing me to doubt my long-held belief that
all drugs should be legalised. I just don't know any more.

~~~
golergka
Of course they should. People should bear responsibility for their own
behavior.

~~~
tempguy9999
That people Should does not mean they Will. Supposing for the sake of argument
that ruining their lives and only their lives is acceptable, then yes,
legalise and let people suffer the consequences of their decisions; they are
adults.

But there's often an inevitable spillover from that individual to others, say
spouses and children, and bystanders (like pedestrians cos someone got pissed
and knew they were safe to drive home - and alcohol is a drug, and very
legal). Even non-drugs like food is blatantly abused - ever seen a morbidly
fat person?

If we legalise drugs then I am coming to the conclusion that we need to take a
society-wide approach, which means at the very least banning all advertising
and probably banning production by privately owned companies because their job
is to make money which precisely leads to their wanting to increase the number
of users and their amount used - look at alcohol advertising.

I don't disagree or agree any more, I've simply lost my certainty. HTH.

FYI this is short and incredibly informative:
<[https://www.spectator.co.uk/2015/05/the-case-for-
prescriptio...](https://www.spectator.co.uk/2015/05/the-case-for-prescription-
heroin/>)

------
temp99990
I’m a fan of MDMA but be warned you need to know what you’re doing and be
well-prepared before and after due to the neurotoxic side effects which may
permanently lower your ability to produce serotonin. Also cannot/should not
take it more than a few times a year with at least 3-4 months between doses.

~~~
tempguy9999
Hmm. your handle is strangely similar to mine. Whatever.

Anyway I disagree with your claim of neurotoxicity _which you don 't justify_.
If you make a claim, back it up otherwise it's FUD.

Here's some actual data mostly opposing that, and a very interesting story of
the US government keeping a pet researcher who'll report whatever they want
<[https://thedea.org/mdma-risks-science-and-statistics-
technic...](https://thedea.org/mdma-risks-science-and-statistics-technical-
faq/mdma-ecstasy-molly-neurotoxicity-brain-damage/>). It's a good read.

> Also cannot/should not take it more than a few times a year with at least
> 3-4 months between doses.

Justify this. With facts.

~~~
krilly
People who take it every weekend will get a kind of permanent tolerance where
they'll never feel the magic again no matter how long they wait. And
apparently permanently affect their ability to feel happiness.

This is common knowledge in the drugs community and harm reduction sources
frequently quote the 3 month thing, although I'm not sure where it originally
came from.

~~~
throwaway0524
This doesn't match my personal experience at all. I'm in my 40s, husband is in
50s, both took massive amounts of mdma in the 90s and 2000s, way above the
guidelines you are describing both in terms of single night usage and
frequency, and still do today but much less frequently. Large cohort of
friends with similar histories. We seem fine. Husband is about the most
naturally happy, well adjusted person you could meet and his consumption of
mdma at times was sort of over the top.

Ymmv!

It absolutely does screw with some people's mood for the worse, but definitely
not everyone, or even most people. I do think for people predisposed to
depression and anxiety, heavy usage can be a bad triggering or worsening
factor.

