
$8M in Funding and a Lawsuit to Boot? Game on. - aaronwhite
http://blog.boundless.com/post/20543499968/boundless-8-million-lawsuit
======
slapshot
The lawsuit is mentioned in the title, but glossed over in the blog post. The
blog post claims that the publishers are trying to "copyright facts."

But the actual complaint ( [http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-
courts/new-yor...](http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/new-
york/nysdce/1:2012cv01986/393501/1/) ) suggests that the publishers allege
much more. You don't have to agree with the publisher's claims (you obviously
don't), but be fair and give the full picture.

The publishers claim that Boundless is copying the chapter titles, subtitles,
subheadings, and pagination of each book, using pictures of the book as
marketing materials, and then paraphrasing 100% of the text of each book.

It's true that you can't copyright facts, but paraphrasing on such a fine
level is often considered copyright infringement. Even Wikipedia forbids close
paraphrasing unless the original material is in the public domain or there is
absolutely no other way to express it:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Close_paraphrasing>

Universities also consider close paraphrasing to be plagiarism:
[http://library.csusm.edu/plagiarism/howtoavoid/how_avoid_par...](http://library.csusm.edu/plagiarism/howtoavoid/how_avoid_paraphrase.htm)

And a court 100-ish years ago found that a close copy of an economics textbook
was a form of copyright infringement, in a very similar pre-digital case (it's
not like the digital era is the first time that people have noticed that books
are expensive):<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macmillan_Co._v._King>

Should that doctrine apply here? Is it a good doctrine in the digital era?
There's room for debate. But you'd never know that from the blog post.

~~~
aaronwhite
(I am one of the founders of Boundless)

Believe me, we would love to go into very, very specific detail on exactly
what is covered in the complaint, unfortunately talking publicly about details
in the suit is taboo/off-limits. Further, our response isn't yet filed, which
would provide some of that detail.

But it's telling they chose to pursue litigation instead of any other form of
out-reach.

~~~
tptacek
The textbook publishers haven't gone into very, very specific detail yet;
they've only provided the amount of detail required to file a suit against
Boundless.

If you've infringed their content, for instance by knowingly paying
contractors to create 1:1 versions of copyrighted textbooks down to specific
analogies and figures (like the Smokey the Thermodynamics Bear), why would it
be on them to pursue any other form out outreach? You'd have committed a tort
against them. They're entitled to relief. It's _on you_ not to violate their
copyright.

It's a little annoying that you're trying to leverage people's sentiment about
textbook publishers so actively. Right is right and wrong is wrong, even when
we don't like the people who've been wronged. It's actually _even more wrong_
, since it casts a pall over everyone else trying to modernize the economics
of textbooks.

~~~
Natsu
You appear to be rushing to judgement by saying "they're entitled to relief."
The items in the complaint are all allegations which have yet to be proven in
a court of law. I'm hoping that you meant that to be part of your hypothetical
statement and simply got carried away.

Infringement is not necessarily a simple matter. Oracle pointed to what
appeared to be direct copying of Java files by Google. But the truth turned
out to be considerably more complex. The result is still uncertain, but there
are good reasons to question whether even something like that will be enough
to support a claim of infringement.

Now, I don't know how things will play out in this case. But that's my point,
because none of us know. We don't have to pick sides today, though.

~~~
tptacek
You missed the word "if" in my comment.

~~~
Natsu
I didn't miss it; it was part of a different sentence and it honestly didn't
sound like it still applied once you got going.

I'm glad that I was correct to assume the best, though.

------
atonse
Am I the only one that really has NO idea what Boundless does?

"Boundless is putting students back in control of their education." is
extremely vague.

Could they possibly just summarize what their product is? I'm guessing this is
some kind of e-textbook? What is a textbook replacement? Are you replacing the
physical format of a textbook into an eBook? Are you proposing an alternative
(like interactive learning?)

But if the textbook publishing industry is suing you, you must be doing
something right.

~~~
bbalfour
Happy to answer. I am one of the founders of Boundless.

The first iteration of our product gave a student a 100% free alternative to
buying their expensive textbook. The product is completely digital with search
functionality, notes, highlights, etc. Very similar to an e-text, but a more
elegant experience (and of course free!).

We did that by leveraging something called Open Educational Resources (OER).
OER is open source content developed by top institutions, organizations, and
educational individuals. It sits in unorganized databases which makes it hard
for a student or professor to adopt. We bridge the gap between the OER content
and the student.

Ultimately this is our first step. We don't consider ourselves a textbook
company. No student wants to read hundreds of pages of text. Now that we have
a great base of content, we will be redefining the user experience so that the
user can focus on bite sized pieces of information rather than long form text.

Let me know if you have other questions.

~~~
nostromo
Change your homepage text from:

"Tired of spending thousands on college only to be forced to use educational
products that you don't like? It’s time for a change. Boundless is built
directly for students like you, tailored to each of your courses so that you
can ditch the expensive textbook, master the essentials and boost your grade."

to

"Boundless replaces your textbooks. It's free."

~~~
aaronwhite
Hah! Love it :)

------
tzs
> Everyone has a favorite teacher, but no one has a favorite textbook

I disagree. I bet if you went over to Reddit and asked on /r/math or
/r/physics, you'd find plenty of people who have a favorite textbook. For
example, I'd say Apostol's "Calculus", volume 1, is a favorite textbook of
mine. I've read it 3 or 4 times over the last 30 years. The Feynman Lectures
on Physics are another favorite of mine.

> 4x more expensive/less accessible/same form factor

(that's from their infographic, comparing textbooks in the '60s to now. It was
on three lines there, which I've marked with slashes to fit the quote on one
line)

Based on inflation, they should be about 6x more expensive, so if that 4x
figure is right textbook prices have improved since the '60s. However, I
suspect that they are a little low in their estimate here. I think prices have
gone up faster than inflation.

I don't see how text books have become less accessible since the '60s.

> There’s one other major concern: textbooks are just flat-out terrible
> products. They’re ineffective pedagogical tools: dense collections of long-
> form text that fail to engage students’ wide range of learning styles

This may be true for the less technical fields, but I have yet to see anything
better for, say, a rigorous upper level math course.

~~~
aaronwhite
Yes, there is some selection bias both ways ;-)

To be fair, the reason you haven't seen anything better is because very few
people are able to get traction in the face of deep, deep entrenchment. Have
you watched Bret Victor's "Kill Math" video? Imagine if most technical courses
had that kind of interactive material. But right now, they won't, because the
barriers to entry are artificially high and incumbents aren't innovating.

~~~
tptacek
Then why not just produce content like "Kill Math", rather than cloning
textbooks? How is a 1:1 clone of an existing textbook --- Boundless texts are
allegedly _pitched to professors_ as clones, and branded "The Boundless
Version of XXX" --- "innovation"?

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samke3
No one likes the big textbook companies, but what Boundless is doing is
clearly breaching copyright law. It seems they are hoping public pressure will
save them, but I don't think most people are naive enough to agree the way
they are doing things is ok. The open resources they are copying from, that's
the way to replace textbooks.

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pascalr
I love that you are working on this. It's one problem that I really want
fixed.

But, your description doesn't impress and convince me. I'd drop at least more
than half of the document. I'd drop most of the description about the problems
with current textbooks and all the vague sales pitches. I'd focus on why your
solution is better.

As I am reading this, I got the impression that you don't have much except
being free and online.

Where does the content come from? Are the authors a good reference? How do you
plan on making money? With annoying ads?

And the lawsuit seems like a different document. Used for publicity?

------
danbmil99
Why don't students just scan & torrent the texts? They already do that for
their music collections.

~~~
sunahsuh
They do -- when I was an undergrad there was a zip file that made the rounds
with textbooks and old exams for many of the core courses.

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acknickulous
Being sued is proof that you made it. Congrats!

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ttol
Congrats Ariel, Aaron, and Brian! Textbook industry needs disruption.

