
High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism - LinuxBender
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/07/190729094538.htm
======
Zenst
Maybe so, though equally could just be a small part in a larger puzzle or even
a red herring.

However, as somebody who is on the autistic spectrum, I have noted that my
index and "ring finger"[edit thanks to comment] are of equal lengths, a trait
more common in females than males who tend to have one longer - see
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digit_ratio](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digit_ratio)

Another aspect/theory from personal experience is that my earliest memory was
as a baby, equally I used to have a nightmare that abaieted when I was able to
tell my mother who informed me of my birth complications and so much of my
nightmare correlated, just seemed so related but then, never know for sure
beyond once I knew this, my nightmares stopped. In short, maybe (least in my
case) autistic people senses and other parts of the brain kick in earlier at a
time when we are less able to process them and this becomes another party of
the puzzle.

But would I change if I could go back in time and become normal is a question
I have asked myself and the answer for me is - no, though the thought of what
life would of been like, naturally yields to pondering.

~~~
bogwog
That digit ratio stuff has always weirded me out. There are even some studies
that show certain ratios correspond with homosexuality. That wikipedia page
even has a huge table with a list of stuff like having a high digit ratio
corresponds to reduced financial trading ability, and a low digit ratio
corresponds to a longer penis.

That shit is weird.

~~~
wnevets
People tend to forget just how important hormones can be and just assume
everything is because of genes.

~~~
refurb
That's an odd comment since hormones are the result of gene expression.

~~~
PeterisP
Not necessarily, for example, the very thing in the article title - high
levels of oestrogens in the womb - is about hormone levels not caused by
expression of your genes but influenced by outside environment.

~~~
taneq
An outside environment which shares ~50% of your genes, though.

~~~
blaser-waffle
Nothing genetic about lead in the air or in paint, or hormones in your beef.
Nothing genetic about alcohol or cigarette exposure in the womb. Or random
thugs terrifying your parents, putting your pregnant mom through waves of
fight-or-flight hormone spikes.

------
nostrademons
Would like to see the original study for this, because it seems like something
is getting lost in translation. The article mentions 4 major prenatal steroid
hormones involved, "two known as androgens", but the headline says that
estrogen is linked. Colloquially, estrogen is the female sex hormone and
androgens (including testosterone) are the male sex hormones. Molecularly,
"estrogens" are a family of different steroid hormones (not a single
molecule), and androgens are a family of other hormones, and both of them
occur in both males & females but in different quantities. And to muddy the
waters further, many androgens are metabolic precursors of estrogens, eg.
testosterone is synthesized into estradiol. And to muddy them even further,
some molecules (eg. DHEA) are both depending upon which biological receptors
they bind to.

The title as written contradicts the article, using the colloquial meaning of
the words involved. There's probably a more precise technical meaning where
everything makes sense, but the article doesn't really explain it.

~~~
meej
The discussion of androgens is of previous work completed in 2015 that the new
estrogen work builds upon. The second paragraph explains the former and the
third paragraph explains the latter.

------
ThrustVectoring
One complicating factor that I put into every thread about random things being
associated with autism: the diagnostic criteria for autism doesn't just
measure how autistic someone is, but also how well they've learned to cope
with being autistic. It measures things like frequency of meltdowns, ability
to handle their everyday life without assistance, ability to "mask" by doing
things like holding eye contact or memorizing social scripts, etc.

Better brain function in general means that someone on the autism spectrum is
less likely to have general life issues that lead to an official diagnosis.
_Anything_ that could reasonably be linked to a decrease in IQ can also
reasonably be linked to autism. IQ is positively correlated with general life
outcomes, and negative life outcomes are _part of the diagnostic criteria_ for
autism.

~~~
mieseratte
> the diagnostic criteria for autism doesn't just measure how autistic someone
> is, but also how well they've learned to cope with being autistic.

I'm not medically qualified at all, but that sounds a bit like saying Typhoid
Mary didn't have typhoid because she was asymptomatic. That someone is able to
effectively cope with a condition doesn't mean they don't have the condition.
Am I missing something?

~~~
ThrustVectoring
Medical practitioners aren't on a platonic quest for truth when they make
diagnoses. They're generally trying to separate out those who would benefit
from treatment. Physical tests aren't often that useful for mental conditions,
so official diagnostic criteria often has a section about how the observed
traits and behaviors cause problems for the patient at home, in school, or at
work.

Furthermore, people simply don't seek diagnosis and care unless they're having
problems that are severe enough. One example is Bill Gross, the "bond king",
who figured out that he had Aspergers _in his 70s_. If someone is adjusted
enough to their social niche, why would they seek a mental health diagnosis?

~~~
mieseratte
Thank you for that clarification, that is my rough understanding of mental
health having been sent to a whole mess of shrinks.

I guess what my ultimate misunderstanding is:

> One complicating factor that I put into every thread about random things
> being associated with autism

How is that a complicating factor in discovering causes themselves? If someone
has the Foo and Bar factors that cause autism, but has otherwise been able to
work around it they are still "autistic" but just at a subclinical (is that
the right phrase?) level. I guess I'm having some (pedantic?) misunderstanding
around autism as a diagnosis vs. a disease you have.

~~~
lazyasciiart
In the case of something like autism, the presentation of symptoms is
massively complicated by the amount of support and therapy/'training' a person
has had. In a population where everyone had equal levels of Foo and Bar, but a
widely varying level of therapy, they would show widely varying levels of
'autism' in their diagnosis - and this would complicate any attempt to study
the relationship of Foo+Bar<->autism.

~~~
lazyasciiart
Should have said: that is in an imaginary scenario where foo+bar really does
cause autism

------
danharaj
Something like 1 in 4 transgender women are also autistic. If this study holds
any water that might be an interesting investigation.

~~~
danbolt
Interesting, I had no idea the rate was so high. I’ve seen one study[1] that
sampled for ~7%, but not 25%. Do you have a link I could read?

[1]
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2904453/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2904453/)

~~~
majos
Not parent, but closest thing I can find is the Kaltiala-Heino et al. study
[1], found from p7 in this literature review [2]. There it's summarized as
"26% of those who had experienced gender dysphoria had previous diagnosis of
ASD". But that study has only 47 people (none adults), all drawn from a pair
of Finnish hospitals. It looks like an outlier among the others, which suggest
something more like 5%.

[1]
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4396787/#!po=0....](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4396787/#!po=0.568182)
[2]
[https://www.smr.jsexmed.org/article/S2050-0521(15)00004-9/pd...](https://www.smr.jsexmed.org/article/S2050-0521\(15\)00004-9/pdf)

~~~
danbolt
Thanks for posting the studies. This might be considered bad faith but the
parent comment struck me as anecdotal and I wanted to press where those
sources were coming from.

~~~
danharaj
I didn't take your question as bad faith, I appreciate it actually, but I
didn't have time during the work day to cite sources. The one posted is the
most scientific one I know of. I have seen self reported surveys of
transgender communities that hit numbers that high, but that's obviously not
scientifically rigorous. Food for thought tho.

I keep myself informed on transgender issues because I have transgender people
near and dear to me and I have transgender colleagues at work. In my personal
life many of the transgender women I know identify as on the spectrum, some
more intensely than others. 1 in 4 sounds right anecdotally as well.

Anecdotally, I think it might be true that younger people in general are more
receptive to identifying as autistic while people my age or older might be
averse to it even with the same experiences.

------
noetic_techy
I've had a sneaking feeling that a lot of the phyto-estrogen compounds out
their were eventually going to be linked to autism. Expect to see a massive
consumer wave against anything containing these compounds: fragrances and any
items that contain fragrance, dyes, receipt paper, soy, both BPA and BPS in
soft plastics, etc.

~~~
bob_theslob646
Do you know any off the top of your head?

~~~
noetic_techy
As far as compounds with phyto-estrogens. Plenty. A great book on the topic:

The Case Against Fragrance - Kate Grenville

Also, I think this story from 2014 about BPS is the biggest bombshell to
consumers that just hasn't hit critical awareness yet:

[https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/bpa-free-
plastic-...](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/bpa-free-plastic-
containers-may-be-just-as-hazardous/)

All my kids drink from stainless steel or glass now. It's made me a bit of a
plasti-phobe.

------
Itaxpica
I'd take this with... not quite a grain of salt, but maybe a small dose of
healthy skepticism. Simon Baron-Cohen is a legitimate and respected
researcher, but he's well known in autism research circles as pushing very
hard a theory that autism is a manifestation of an "extreme male brain", which
is a theory that almost every other significant researcher in the field
disagrees with. I'd suggest taking a critical view of any research coming out
of his lab that bolsters his pet theory, like this does - there's a lot of
context here that's lacking.

~~~
dooglius
It sounds like this is evidence for that view then. Why is the researcher's
theory relevant to results that support that theory?

~~~
Latty
The scientific method is not generally served well by people seeking to find a
particular answer, as opposed to the truth.

Not saying that is the case here, but I agree with the parent-it inspires some
scepticism from me.

~~~
dooglius
You gererate a hypothesis and then experimentally test that hypothesis, I
don't see anything wrong there. How else would you evaluate new theories that
go against convention? Maybe you are suggesting that he fudged the data or
otherwise manipulated the experiment to get a desired result?

~~~
Latty
Of course, but there is a difference between having a hypothesis to test, and
believing something and setting out to find evidence for it. Those are some
extreme examples of that being an issue, but also things like not publishing
negative results can also be a result, less obviously.

I very specifically said that I was _not_ saying that was what happened in
this case, just that I agreed that there was something of a red flag.

------
floatingatoll
Summary of study from Nature link, italics mine to prevent likely
misunderstandings of their work:

> Here we test _whether_ levels of prenatal oestriol, oestradiol, oestrone and
> oestrone sulphate in amniotic fluid _are associated with_ autism, in the
> same Danish Historic Birth Cohort, in which prenatal androgens were
> measured, using univariate logistic regression (n = 98 cases, n = 177
> controls). We also make a like-to-like comparison between the prenatal
> oestrogens and androgens. Oestradiol, oestrone, oestriol and progesterone
> _each related to autism in univariate analyses_ after correction with false
> discovery rate. A comparison of standardised odds ratios showed that
> oestradiol, oestrone and progesterone had the largest effects on autism
> _likelihood_.

------
reilly3000
After reading the article I had a brief hypothesis that higher estrogen levels
would also be associated with non-heterosexuality. This study seems to
strongly concur:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/29159906/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/29159906/)

> In the group with ASD, 69.7% of the sample reported being non-heterosexual,
> while in the TD group, 30.3% reported being non-heterosexual. The group with
> ASD reported higher rates of homosexuality, bisexuality and asexuality, but
> lower rates of heterosexuality

~~~
novaRom
There are also other features. For instance, measuring the anogenital distance
in neonatal humans has been suggested as a noninvasive method to determine
male feminisation and thereby predict neonatal and adult reproductive
disorders.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anogenital_distance](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anogenital_distance)

------
devoply
BPA mimics estrogen, so does that mean that plastics are causing autism?

[https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/publichealth/...](https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/publichealth/12767)

~~~
mobilefriendly
I wonder if birth control (which spikes estrogen) has a lasting impact on
levels after a mom goes off to have a child.

~~~
eloff
I'm wondering that as well, could be an unintended side effect of some forms
of hormonal birth control.

~~~
Nasrudith
There is some precedent for the opposite in biological males one hazard of
androgen doping is a drop off in natural production. While a similar feedback
mechanism may exist there is no guarantee.

I am uncertain what influence multiple pregnancies has on estrogen levels -
let alone how comparable birth control is but that could offer a hint.

------
Nimitz14
> However, the team cautioned that these findings cannot and should not be
> used to screen for autism. "We are interested in understanding autism, not
> preventing it," added Professor Baron-Cohen.

I don't understand why not?

~~~
MartianSquirrel
One shall not see a difference as something bad.

Many autistic people have tremendously contributed to our society. The goal in
this case is to develop the knowledge and tools that will help everyone use
this as a strength.

~~~
deckar01
Autism is a disorder that can require medical treatment. If a doctor could
screen for risk factors and provide medication to pregnant women that reduced
the chances of autism developing in the child, it would be their duty.

~~~
master-litty
Absolutely not. If it were anyone's decision it should be the mother's, and I
even find that questionable.

Autism isn't inherently bad, it's just different. There's no duty beyond
screenings and providing the knowledge.

~~~
brandonmenc
> Autism isn't inherently bad, it's just different.

Not true for all manifestations of it.

------
yread
From the study:

> This finding appears to contradict an earlier report by Windham et al. [32]
> that showed that lower levels of oestriol in second trimester were modestly
> associated with a later diagnosis of autism in the offspring. However, our
> samples correspond to a slightly earlier time point in pregnancy compared to
> Windham et al. (mean gestational week = 14.9 vs. 17.2 respectively) (see
> Table 1) [32], which could potentially better capture the steroid surge
> during the PMW [14]. Furthermore, our samples are of different origin, as
> Windham et al. assayed maternal serum, rather than foetal amniotic fluid.
> Steroid hormone levels in maternal serum do not differ relative to the
> baby’s sex and do not correlate to amniotic levels during the PMW [42].

So, high levels in blood reduce the autism risk and in amniotic fluid it's the
other way around? I'll wait for a replication, I think

------
zeleza
As always, a reminder that correlation != causation. This shows an association
between hormone levels and autism, which is suggestive. But keep in mind that
there may be a confounding factor or factors (e.g. the same genes that control
synapses that are dysfunctional in autism may be involved in hormonal
regulation).

Biology is decidedly unlike good code - no modularity, many pleiotropic
effects. Something more definitive would be examining pregnancies where
oestrogens were artificially elevated, maybe by looking at women who were
unknowingly pregnant but continued to take oestrogenic contraceptives.

------
buboard
We already have a lot of progress in artificial womb technology. I wonder if
studies like this will push towards more research in that direction.

------
frooxie
> High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism

I wonder how this fits with the "extreme male brain theory of autism".

------
ajcarpy2005
This makes me wonder if reducing estrogen levels in the child would make a
difference in cognitive function.

------
not_a_cop75
So am I to understand that birth control could be responsible for autism?

------
jsnider3
I'm sure the anti-vaxxers will be happy to update their views.

------
fortran77
There's a well established link between obese mothers and autism.

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4006442/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4006442/)

and obesity leads to higher than normal estrogen levels:

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7083189/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7083189/)

So this may be the connection.

~~~
Someone1234
Your study doesn't support your summary:

> Maternal obesity (BMI ≥30) was only weakly associated with ASD risk, whereas
> paternal obesity was associated with an increased risk of autistic disorder
> and Asperger disorder.

Paternal obesity couldn't impact womb estrogen levels. There's a weak
connection between maternal obesity and ASD risk in the study you linked.

------
nottorp
What? It wasn't video games?

~~~
irrational
I thought it was vaccines.

------
amasad
Would be interesting to see what causes high estrogen in the studied women. My
guess would be obesity, and potentially plant-based diet high in soy products.

~~~
Inthenameofmine
I think the soy idea has been debunked for some time now. The main external
estrogen source is milk and to some extend meat products.

~~~
amasad
Fake news! Soy has orders of magnitude more estrogen than animal products,
even the hormone-implanted ones.

> The 1.9 nanograms of estrogen in implanted beef is also minuscule compared
> to 225 nanograms of estrogen in potatoes, 340 nanograms of estrogen in peas,
> 520 nanograms of estrogen in ice cream, 2,000 nanograms of estrogen in
> cabbage, 11,250 nanograms of estrogen in soy milk, and 170,000 nanograms of
> estrogen in soybean oil… all based on a 3 ounce serving size. One birth
> control pill contains 35,000 nanograms of estrogen.

[https://newsroom.unl.edu/announce/beef/2846/15997](https://newsroom.unl.edu/announce/beef/2846/15997)

~~~
citruscomputing
phytoestrogen != estrogen

If this were true, all the pre-transition trans women I know would be eating a
LOT more soy. Unfortunately, it's not, and can even have the opposite effect,
by binding to receptors that estrogen would, preventing it from acting
normally.

~~~
arbitrage
The idea of consuming phytoestrogen in pre-HRT transwomen is pretty
widespread, in my experience. Unsure where the idea came from, but it is
definitely "in the air".

> and can even have the opposite effect

This part gets omitted a distressing amount of the time, unfortunately.

------
hannob
Word of warning: There's about on study per month finding the cause of autism.
Unfortunately each study finds another one.

------
iamleppert
I have hemophilia, a genetically inherited X-chromosome linked disorder,
inherited from the mother. Due to the fact males have an XY chromosome and
mothers have two X’s, with one of the X’s containing the faulty gene, it’s
possible for a mother to have children with and without the disease. In fact,
there is a 50% chance each of her males will have the disorder.

Why am I telling you this? Because there is a test that can tell if the fetus
has hemophilia or not by sampling blood via amniocentesis. When my mom was
pregnant with my brother, she had this procedure done.

However, there were complications during pregnancy and my brother, although he
was in fact born without hemophilia, has severe birth defects in his lower
extremities. It was later found to be directly caused by the test itself.

Just goes to show what happens when you try to play god.

~~~
mjevans
Playing god is fine if you've got the technology to back the check you're
writing.

We aren't there yet, but I hope we end up surviving and maturing to the point
where we can "play god" and do so ethically.

