
WestJet pilot’s eyes struck by laser on flight from Newfoundland to Florida - avivallssa
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/westjet-pilot-eyes-burned-by-laser-1.5144981
======
acchow
Even without blinking, the plane is quite far away and moving with great
speed. How could a laser actually get pointed into someone's eye for more than
0.2s?

~~~
dmitrygr
This has happened to me while piloting a small plane over oakland. What
happens is that the light hits the cockpit front window. That diffuses it
throughout the cockpit. It blinds your momentarily. And you lose any and all
night adaptation in your eyes. This particularly sucks on moonless nights, and
doubly so when you have to look out the window to land.

~~~
fromthestart
Well, that's sort of good news then, you're reducing power density by what,
2-3 orders of magnitude? So much less likely to cause permanent damage.

Edit: not sure why people are downvoting. If the point source is spread by
diffracting through the window, count of photons per unit area is reduced in
proportion to the square of the difference in radius from, say, an inch or so,
depending on the spread of the beam with distance, to a large enough cone to
apparently light up the cockpit. Which means a 1mW laser goes from ≈1mW/in^2
to ≈.01mW/in^2 if the cone spreads to a diameter of 10 inches by the time it
hits the pilot's eye.

~~~
jaggederest
All of the high power lasers I've seen are fully capable of blinding people
off tertiary or quaternary reflections from even relatively low albedo
surfaces.

Even closing your eyes is not sufficient for some of them. They can light up
your eyelids brightly enough to cause damage even reflected twice.

So even a glancing contact will give you a full dazzle, blinding you for at
least a few minutes, and possibly permanent damage if you're unlucky.

~~~
kentm
Are lasers at those power levels generally available to the public?

~~~
jaggederest
[https://m.laserpointerpro.com/attribute/power_3000mw-
lasers_...](https://m.laserpointerpro.com/attribute/power_3000mw-lasers_80)

You can find them all over eBay and Alibaba in even higher wattages. I've seen
15w

------
antimatter15
Cheap green 523nm lasers are especially dangerous. They are marketed as Class
III <5mW, but with a laser power meter they are frequently 30mW-80mW or
higher.

It's not that 5mW lasers can't cause permanent damage to the retina, but
rather that within 200ms the blink reflex will typically kick in and stop
continued exposure.

Green lasers are typically DPSS diode lasers— which means they have a high
power infrared laser diode that passes through a frequency doubling crystal to
achieve green. Cheap laser pointers often skip the IR filter and will pass
through a lot of IR light— which is especially dangerous because it doesn't
trigger the blink reflex.

The NOHD (nominal ocular hazard distance— the distance at which there's a 50%
chance of some minimally detectable permanent lesion on the retina) for a
green laser pointer can be hundreds-to-thousands of feet.

The (temporary) flashblindness threshold is some multiple of that. Given the
distances involved, I'm guessing it's temporary, unless someone was using some
obscenely powerful (e.g. 1W) laser.

~~~
DuskStar
> unless someone was using some obscenely powerful (e.g. 1W) laser.

People haven't quite grasped the stupidity/danger of laser pointers yet, I'm
afraid. Check out this page with a variety of '50W' lasers:
[https://www.laserpointerpro.com/attribute/power_50000mw-
lase...](https://www.laserpointerpro.com/attribute/power_50000mw-lasers_105)

~~~
TheCraiggers
This... has got to be the stupidest thing I've seen online in quite some time.
At the very least, something like that should come with a free pair of
goggles. And of course they basically look like lightsabers / toys.

~~~
tedivm
There are legitimate uses for these, and for a second I wanted to give them
the benefit of the doubt- and then I read their descriptions.

> The 50000mW 532nm Green Beam Light Separate Crystal Attacking Head Laser
> Pointer Pen is a versatile tool designed with a variety of functions. With
> 50000mW high power, it produces a super bright green beam light full of
> energy that can be used to light a cigarette, cut the paper even plastic
> into pieces, shoot the bird, and more. Moreover, advanced separate crystal
> design makes it more stable and durable during long hours of continuous
> running. And its attacking head is ultra solid even in the harshest
> environment. Don't hesitate to get one now!

They're taking a tool and turning it into a ridiculous toy. I can already see
someone trying to "light a cigarette" they're holding in their mouth and
blinding themselves in the process.

That being said a lot of them do come with goggles.

~~~
Mirioron
A 50W laser would blind you even from reflections. That's not something you
should play around with even with laser goggles.

This is about a 5W laser for reference:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMVWW-
bmKwQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMVWW-bmKwQ)

------
heelix
When it does strike the aircraft, it tends to reflect all over and destroy a
person's night vision temporarily. Bonus that it (justifiably) can permanently
mess up vision on the reflect. I've not been lazed yet, but folks I fly with
have when flying GA planes under the bravo shelf. It is a scary thing. Usually
turning off the exterior lights is enough to make it stop.

The FAA does take this sort of thing very seriously and one of the guys even
had the FBI swing through to interview. Pretty sure they call the local cops
with the general location info too. God help the person who thinks they were
having a funny with a green laser - and finds out the felony may get them 5
years....

~~~
swiley
5 years sounds pretty short for something in the US.

------
dba7dba
Few interesting stories about aviation and laser

1\. While I was reading about the Falkland war's naval action, I learned
British warships at one time (70s - 80s ?) were specifically equipped with
laser emitters to try to distract jet fighter pilots flying into attack the
war ships. This was when some jet fighters still had to fly in close to the
warships to attack them.

This was mentioned in the book "One Hundred Days: The Memoirs of the Falklands
Battle Group Commander (Bluejacket Books)", by Adm. Sandy Woodward.

2\. Since a few years ago, US air crew members (specifically on low/slow ones
like helicopters) flying around the DMZ area in S. Korea are required to wear
protective goggles to protect their eyes from laser beams pointed by North
Korean soldiers. This apparently happened a few times and so wearing the
protective goggle became a requirement for the crews.

3\. Few years ago, a man (fisherman ?) was swept out to the sea at night off
one of the Hawaiian islands. He was able to stay afloat but unable to swim
into shore. When he heard a helicopter searching for him, he pointed a laser
beam emitter into the sky. He pointed out into the sky but away from the
helicopter. This helped the air crew locate him quickly for the rescue.

~~~
ganzuul
I thought using lasers to blind people was a war crime.

~~~
wahern
Apparently that didn't come into effect until 1998, and wasn't even proposed
until 1986:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_on_Blinding_Laser_Wea...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_on_Blinding_Laser_Weapons)
The Falklands War was in 1982.

Though maybe general principles would reject any weapon principally designed
to maim? That leaves a lot of grey area so understandable that it might need
to be spelled out explicitly.

------
rsanheim
A Black Rock ranger, Kelli Hoversten, was partially blinded in one eye at
Burning Man 2014 (my first burn) when someone in the crowd pointed a laser at
her while she working [1]. This was a handheld laser from five years ago, so
I'm sure the lasers you can buy for cheap, portable use have only gotten more
powerful and dangerous.

Since 2014, the org has banned the use of all lasers by any attendee, and any
lasers used by art cars are heavily regulated. These things are no joke, and
it doesn't take much to permanently blind someone.

[1] - [https://journal.burningman.org/2015/03/black-rock-
city/tales...](https://journal.burningman.org/2015/03/black-rock-city/tales-
from-the-playa/theres-a-black-dot-in-the-middle-of-everything-i-see/)

------
LeoPanthera
Not that I am defending this incident, but this headline is almost certainly a
wild exaggeration.

From the article: "The flight landed safely a short time later, and the pilot
was placed on medical leave, _which is routine in such cases_."

(Emphasis mine.)

Unless the laser-wilder is using something ungodly powerful, the pilot would
have to stare into the beam and consciously override his blink reflex before
damage could occur. It seems unlikely that you could even keep the laser
focused on the cockpit for that long, at the speed planes move.

~~~
joemi
The word “blind” can mean either permanent or temporary loss of vision. To
that end it does not seem to be an exaggerated headline at all.

~~~
LeoPanthera
It's the "burn" bit I object to.

~~~
goodcanadian
It is quite possible that to get burn damage to one's retinas which is why
medical leave and evaluation by an ophthalmologist is routine. While I agree
that it is not completely clear, I suspect that he did get at least mild
damage or the choice of words would have been different.

------
markdown
Relevant video published a few days ago:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMVWW-
bmKwQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMVWW-bmKwQ)

------
Retric
Burned seems to overstate things as no specific harm was mentioned.

Lasers can very quickly cause permanent damage to the eye. But what amounts to
~1 square centimeter target in an aircraft going several hundred miles an hour
is likely to be extremely brief. Though distracting and therefore still
dangerous.

~~~
jessriedel
I think this goes beyond "overstated" to outright falsehood (assuming, as it
appears from the article, that the pilots eyes weren't actually burned). It
punches up the headline, so it's almost certainly purposeful.

~~~
jonhendry18
They're not talking about combustion-type burning. How hard do you think it is
to burn (as in tissue burn) the cells on the surface of the retina, given that
there is a lens focusing light onto the retina?

~~~
Retric
That’s not really how eyes work. It’s possible for the laser to be focused.
However, it depends on how your eye is focused.

This is why you can’t keep objects on the foreground and background focused at
the same time.

~~~
jonhendry18
I'm not sure that matters much, it'd likely still be concentrated on a smaller
radius than the pupil, even if it isn't focused to an absolute pinpoint.

~~~
Retric
Not really, if you look at an accurate model of the human eye about half the
inner sphere is photoreceptive. Where a much smaller area collects light. It’s
a very different model than how cameras work and how most simplified models
are shown.

Look at the optic nerve on this pic:
[https://associatedretinaconsultants.com/diagram-of-the-
eye/](https://associatedretinaconsultants.com/diagram-of-the-eye/)

PS: This is why the blind spot is relatively small even though the optic nerve
is 1.5 mm in diameter.

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azinman2
I just cannot imagine why someone would do this unless they want to crash a
plane... you can’t even see the pilots reaction!

~~~
nitrogen
My guess is that the best case scenario is someone stargazing and pointing out
constellations with a laser, then noticing a plane and, without thinking about
the consequences, pointing at the plane to show their fellow stargazers "hey,
there's a plane".

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chrishatherley
Well, i think they word "blinded" was overstated, but could be more accurately
compared to the "blinded" you might say when someone has their high-beam
lights on as you are driving down the highways and it is hard to see. For
starters, the plane was at least 10,000 feet if they are 40 km from airport
(that is 3,048m or 3 km). if you take any of those green pen lasers and hold
it against your skin for an hour it won't burn it. Now, as the focused point
of light gets further away the dot grows in size (lasers are great for keeping
the light beam together, but it still spreads). So if the plane was at least
3km directly above you, it wouldn't shoot through the floor. But if it was say
45 degrees above and away, that would be 5 km. (remember, the article said it
was 40 km from airport, so it wasn't skimming the roof tops - it would be
holding at 3km vertical). So, at 5 kms, the pen laser dot would be huge
(diluted). Have a look at this physics article
[https://www.physics.utoronto.ca/~jharlow/teaching/lasers.htm...](https://www.physics.utoronto.ca/~jharlow/teaching/lasers.html)

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bayareanative
Shouldn't there be a visual "ShotSpotter" system around airports that can
track origins of high-intensity lasers being aimed into the sky around
airports?

~~~
skunkworker
Unless you have the right conditions to see the beam emitted there would be no
way to detect a laser unless you were near the target.

~~~
jonhendry18
The green laser pointers are pretty visible, I think.

------
MagicPropmaker
How do they manage to pinpoint the location in these cases? Do airplanes have
accurate "dashcams" combined with the exact location and orientation of the
aircraft?

~~~
joemi
In the US at least (probably most other places too), aircraft are tracked
pretty accurately, so if you know the time it happened and the pilot can give
a rough bearing, some triangulation should be possible. Add to that the fact
that the area around airports (where such lasering usually occurs) is usually
sparsely populated due to people not wanting to live near and airport, and
it’s easy to see how it might be possible to narrow it down to a specific
address.

~~~
analog31
One thing about a powerful laser is that it scatters off of dust particles and
anything else in the air, including the air itself (Rayleigh scattering). As a
result it should produce a faint line in the air that points back to the
source.

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Swivekth18
Authorities in all countries need to start dishing out serious penalties
including jail time to those playing these games with laser beams. Otherwise,
there's going to be a serious crash that could kill 150 or more besides doing
major damage if the plane comes down onto a populous area as is likely since
these incidents seemed to usually occur near airports.

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jacquesm
I've had this happen to me on a highway near Alkmaar (A9), very annoying and
super dangerous, in a car just as much as in a plane. The scariest bit is that
is pretty much the exact path the planes take to land at Schiphol airport and
I figured maybe the person that did that was bored with trying to hit aircraft
and then pointed at the highway instead.

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leoh
Are there any goggles pilots can wear to protect their eyes in these kinds of
situations?

Edit: looks like maybe? [https://www.amazon.com/HDE-Protection-Safety-Glasses-
Lasers/...](https://www.amazon.com/HDE-Protection-Safety-Glasses-
Lasers/dp/B009T6RN0G)

~~~
pps43
Revision makes it:
[https://www.revisionmilitary.com/en/eyewear/spectacles/sting...](https://www.revisionmilitary.com/en/eyewear/spectacles/stingerhawk-e25-basic-
kit)

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cyberferret
Not an electronics expert at all, but what are the chances of doing routine
patrols or setting up checkpoints around airports to 'sniff' for the
electromagnetic field emissions that these sorts of devices emit when used? I
am presuming that they would have a fairly unique fingerprint that would make
them stand out from the usual microwave or infrared noise that most household
electronic devices use?

~~~
dTal
Oh, a very distinctive fingerprint! Big powerful EM spike at 564 Terahertz.
Trouble is, it comes out in a tight collimated beam...

In all seriousness - besides the light, I wouldn't expect any emissions of any
kind really. It's a DC battery and a diode. The only oscillator is the laser
cavity.

------
MithrilTuxedo
I couldn't tell from the title, but was rewarded by the read: it happened over
Florida.

Florida (wo)man strikes again.

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jamisteven
So your telling me that a laser, pointed from the ground, is able to shoot
straight up, that far, and then curve AROUND the tip of the airplane and into
the cockpit and lock-in to that fast of a moving object? This is absolute
nonsense and is not some civilian pointing a damn laser pointer from a
residential address. This is either military or some other phenomenon.

~~~
jonhendry18
You haven't ever been in a plane, have you.

