
Ask HN: Quit my job. Company coming after me - sriram_sun
I moved my family from Denver to the Bay Area to work for a medical device startup. The pay was very good. After about 4 months, I decided to part ways with them for personal reasons.<p>The timing was unfortunate as I quit the day after I received a performance award. I did finish up a major project before I quit though.<p>The day I announced my intention to quit, my manager asked me to reconsider my decision. After I stuck to my decision, he had the VP of HR talk to me. This was when things became a little unsettling. HR manager advised that I pack my belongings and leave the building before either VP A or VP B found out about my decision to leave. I was also told that I would not find any positions in the Medical Device Industry in the Bay Area. Towards the end of our conversation, HR lady mentioned that her mental state was transitioning towards anger. Due to these comments, I thought it best to leave the premises as soon as possible. I cleaned out my desk (on a friday), stayed for a few more hours, transitioned everything that I could think of to other co-workers, turned over my keys and left.<p>I later found out from another pretty reliable source that the company has decided to make life as difficult for me as possible. Other employees have been questioned of their interactions with me after I quit.<p>1. I need to discuss the issue with a good attorney if possible. I am really new to this area and don&#x27;t have any contacts. References are appreciated.<p>2. I was asked to return a 100% of my sign-on bonus. I am willing to return it. However, about 30-40% of that was withheld for tax purposes. Do I give them the entire amount and claim the taxed amount from IRS?<p>3. I know that most of the issues here would probably be best discussed with an attorney. However, I would appreciate HN advise as well.
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loumf
IANAL, and this is my 2 cents. Get a good labor lawyer.

1\. Did your sign-on bonus state that you had to stay a certain time to keep
it. If not, don't give it back. They are hostile (and have already taken
hostile actions) and haven't earned consideration. Any payment from you should
come with them signing an onerous agreement.

2\. If you have to give it back by contractual obligation, then pay the whole
amount. You get the tax that was withheld by the IRS when you file. If cash is
an issue, tell them you'll send the rest when it's refunded.

3\. If they do anything to hurt you, you will be able to sue them for damages.
Don't retaliate by naming/shaming/defaming them. Collect as much evidence as
possible about whatever they decide to do and just have a lawyer write a
letter. Say little to nothing publicly.

4\. They are within their rights not to give you a good recommendation. You
should not refer anyone to them.

5\. I strongly doubt anyone will care what they have to say about you.

6\. CA has employee-friendly non-compete. You can't use their secret
information, but you can work for a competitor.

7\. Quitting after receiving a performance bonus is so commonplace that it's
boring. The entire NYC financial and legal industry basically plans their
annual personnel strategy around it.

~~~
tptacek
The boilerplate standard signing bonus is recoupable if the employee leaves
within a year. You're right that he should make sure that's the case for his
own bonus, but it's more likely than not that he has to return it.

~~~
sriram_sun
Yes. That was part of the contract. I do have to return it if I quit within a
year

~~~
jaf656s
Was it prorated? All of the signing bonuses I have received have been.

~~~
sriram_sun
Unfortunately no. Lesson Learned there.

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cik
Get a labour lawyer, and get them on retainer. You may not need it, but that's
fine. Lawyers hold funds in trust - not that anything can happen, but having
them on retainer means that should you be in some sort of sticky situation,
you can continue using said lawyer, as they're already on retainer.

Then - stop.

Don't do _anything_ , _anything_ , _anything_ , without a discussion with said
lawyer. Follow everything that lawyer says to a T - full stop. The only
opinion that matters is the labour lawyer, who will undoubtedly base things on
your contract, and any e-mails you exchanged prior to signing said contract.

Phone calls / voice conversations / things that aren't written down are too
much of a he said/she said. Don't offer any money, don't so much as have a
conversation with the company. For the time being, don't see your old co-
workers, don't exchange email, just don't do anything.

tl;dr - Lawyer up

~~~
late2part
You might give Scott a call --
[http://www.gatteylaw.com/](http://www.gatteylaw.com/)

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sriram_sun
Contd.. 4\. Lesson learned: The conversation with HR didn't turn out the way I
expected. Although I was asked by the HR manager to turn in my resignation, I
was unsettled enough by the order to leave that I forgot to give my
resignation in writing. I was actually willing to do stay around a even a
month for them until they hired a replacement and I had mentioned that to my
manager. Not in writing though. Just a note for others. This gave them enough
ammo to call a few recruiters and tell them that I quit without even a 2 week
notice (Recruiters being who they are immediately called me and told me about
other companies that are hiring). Also, my leaving did make life easier for
the other developers for a little while.

5\. Stay tuned! Not sure what will come out of this, but don't want to go
bankrupt or spend a considerable amount of time and resources in court for
sure. I'd consider it a win if I can just write a check for the sign-on bonus
minus the tax deduction and both parties forget about it. Unfortunately that
doesn't seem to be the case.

~~~
joezydeco
_This gave them enough ammo to call a few recruiters and tell them that I quit
without even a 2 week notice_

Unless you have an employment contract that said otherwise your employment is
"at-will", meaning you can be fired at any time and, in return, you can walk
away at any time.

Two weeks is a common courtesy but is not required of anyone. Given the
hostile environment, it probably would not have been a productive time anyway.
And, obviously, the recruiters could care less.

~~~
sriram_sun
True. Employment was "at will".

~~~
late2part
If they did call people and tell them you quit without notice, they are likely
opening themselves up to damages. If your story is accurate, then they lied if
they said you quit without notice, as they asked you to resign that day. If
they are telling lies about you ; and you are damaged, they are likely liable
for that. Talk to an employment attorney.

~~~
FireBeyond
Right. This would certainly seem to be extremely close to the textbook
definition of tortious interference (though it may require you to already in
negotiations), whereby a occurs when a person intentionally damages the
plaintiff's contractual or other business relationships. This tort is broadly
divided into two categories, one specific to contractual relationships
(irrespective of whether they involve business), and the other specific to
business relationships or activities (irrespective of whether they involve a
contract).

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jaworrom
From what you are saying, it sounds like this company would be best suited to
get their HR shit straight, or they will find themselves in a world of hurt
down the road. HR Lady's mention that "her mental state was transitioning
towards anger" can be described as offensive conduct, and the EEOC would be
all over that. Also, The Department of Labor doesn't take too kindly to stuff
like this. Do find an Employment/Labor Law Attorney and tell them exactly what
you wrote above.

~~~
sriram_sun
Thanks! That particular comment seemed really out of line. I just took a deep
breath and left the room.

~~~
jaworrom
You did the right thing. Sadly, the quality of HR professionals has been on
the decline for some time now, because kids are coming out of college with HR
degrees that are completely detached from reality (wait, this sounds like a
lot of college degrees :) ). They don't realize how much litigation is
involved and just how much an HR mistake can harm a business.

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ChuckMcM
These things happen and it sounds like the company is being jerks about it.
Your offer letter will cover the conditions under which you have to return the
signing bonus. It may or may not be pro-rated but usually if you quit you do
have to give it back. And yes, you have to return the whole amount, when you
file your tax return you will get back the withheld taxes in your refund as
the bonus will no longer be part of your compensation on your W2.

The whole black listing / smearing thing is mostly just talk. Given that they
are that smarmy, others will know that about them as well. Having the 'award'
will certainly put the question of who has the sour grapes out there. And hey
it has given you some manager types you don't want to work for again. It is
always an option of the company to walk you out the door once you decide to
move on, that is more common when the company is worried about how your
leaving will impact others, but I know of at least one company where it is
standard policy.

The only risk of talking to a lawyer here is that they will get all excited
and try to get you to take some action. Generally you have to ask, what is it
you want? To complain? put a comment up on Glassdoor and move on. A lot
cheaper than paying an attorney.

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alain94040
1\. I usually advise people to talk to a lawyer, but in your situation,
nothing has happened yet. The company hasn't actually done anything that
should concern you.

2\. Follow the letter of whatever deal you had for your sign-on bonus. If your
contract says you have to return it, do so. If it says it is pro-rated, do so.
Don't invent new rules. If the contract doesn't say anything about returning
it, don't.

3\. Just make sure that your conduct is above reproach. Don't give them any
excuse for going after you for any reason. Act professional, leave, you don't
owe them anything.

~~~
FireBeyond
r.e. point 1 - apparently the company has (proactively?) contacted recruiters
to advise them that this person is unreliable, i.e. quit without notice
(regardless of the fact that even if so, they were perfectly within their
rights to do so).

~~~
dragonwriter
> r.e. point 1 - apparently the company has (proactively?) contacted
> recruiters to advise them that this person is unreliable, i.e. quit without
> notice (regardless of the fact that even if so, they were perfectly within
> their rights to do so).

Which, given that the OP had provided notice to your manager, and left
immediately only because directed to by the company's HR manager, would seem
to be damaging information concerning the OP's usual employment that was false
and that the company knew, or reasonably should have known, was false -- i.e.,
quite likely actionable slander.

So, good reason to talk to a lawyer, especially if the OP believes the
company's activities are likely to escalate if not constrained.

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georgemcbay
1) You need to talk to a lawyer (don't have any Bay Area references, sorry)

2) Don't pay them until you talk to a lawyer.

3) At-will is at-will and businesses are the ones who pushed for this concept,
so don't lose any sleep over exercising your right to quit at-will (though I
do think it is good professional behavior to give 2 weeks notice, especially
if it will help wrap up any loose ends). The timing will _always_ be
unfortunate if the company sees you as a high-value contributing employee.

------
ziffusion
Do you mind sharing a little about the nature of things that drove you to
quit? What got the HR lady and VP-A and VP-B so angry? Who was at fault? Just
trying to understand the situation a bit.

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StephenGL
Get off the internet and talk to an attorney.

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hga
Here's something very specific for the lawyer you'll be retaining to do:
contact the company's lawyer and point out how stupid they're being, so the
latter will tell them how very foolish they're being, but that's OK, he'll
just make more money if they don't stop and get sued....

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icedchai
Oh no, VP A, B, and HR lady are mad. How do they expect to "make life
difficult" for you? Realistically, there is not much they can do. I wouldn't
worry about it unless an actual action is taken.

As for the bonus? Unless you are contractually bound to return it, tell them
the money's spent and to write it off.

------
late2part
You said you were asked to return your sign on bonus. I'd like you to give me
$15,000 please.

------
hellweaver666
I have to ask... Why are they so angry about you leaving?

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morfizm
Startups aren't meant to let one spend time with his family.

It's also quite common that first 4-12 months in a new company (startup or
not) are much more demanding than ongoing work (due to ramp up).

~~~
sriram_sun
I totally agree. My realization was that I'd rather spend the non-family time
on my own ideas. I've edited my post so the focus stays on the questions I've
asked.

~~~
morfizm
RE your questions there's one thing I know: non-compete are not enforceable in
California. Relax and join a different medical startup if you want.

(I am not a lawyer, so get one to confirm, or get listen to another 10 random
folks :))

Unsure about remaining questions: 1) can you do anything to prevent your
defamation among recruiters and/or make them pay for it, 2) sign-in bonus tax
issues.

But my point was that as far as ethical and personal issues go, I am not on
your side. If I was your employer I'd be angry too :)

RE spending time on your own ideas, I think the problem is not strictly time.
It's energy. I spend only 40-45 hours a week at work but it's intensive
focused time that leaves leave me with barely 15 hours/week of high energy
focused time on _all_ of the rest: my hobbies and meaningful time with family
combined. In startups there's expectation that you give all of it, not just
40-45 hours.

~~~
georgemcbay
"non-compete are not enforceable in California. Relax and join a different
medical startup if you want."

The way I read the OP (though this may be incorrect) wasn't so much that they
were threatening to enforce a non-compete, but rather that they intended to
blackball him within the local industry.

~~~
sriram_sun
Yes the worry is not the non-compete. The med device industry is pretty small
within the US. It was the threat that bothered me more.

