
Ask HN: 0/30 in the job hunt. Is this typical? - dapplicant
Ten years of professional full-stack experience and having trouble finding a development job after relocating. I&#x27;ve gotten to 30 technical interviews in the last 5 months, and have received no offers.<p>I&#x27;m able to get interviews for the majority of positions I apply to and typically do pretty well through the first few rounds of interviews and even homework assignments (that I once swore off). I tend to do poorly in technical interviews, or so my 0-for-30 streak would have me believe. And I&#x27;m not sure what to do.<p>I honestly believe that if any company called up anyone I&#x27;ve worked with over my career they would vouch for my capabilities. Somehow my behavior or responses in technical interviews must be suggesting that I don&#x27;t know what I&#x27;m talking about.<p>I&#x27;m considering taking myself out of the workforce, or at least stop applying for jobs. What tech jobs don&#x27;t require a technical interview? I&#x27;ve built the tech for several startups both as part of a team and by myself, I&#x27;ve managed teams, mentored engineers, launched products...
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mchannon
There's a lot of "going-through-the-motions" recruiting going on. That is to
say that they'll put you through an interviewing process, but you'll never get
in, no matter how well you do. There are a number of reasons this goes on. One
of them is an organization's ability to pat themselves on the back by "hiring
only the best" and letting current employees do the interviewing, a self-
fulfilling prophecy. It's like a game show where the host has all the answers
and if you miss a single one, they have some lovely parting gifts for you.

These organizations tend to suck up a lot of the oxygen in the room. So for
perhaps 20 of those 30 of your interviews, there's plenty of good talent that
they turn their nose up at. Speaking from experience, the harsher the
interview, the more likely it is to be the case that you never had a chance.

If you're going through spammy recruiters, consider not. There's a factor of
cognitive dissonance going on where prospective employers want to hire you,
but can't get past the principle of paying the recruiter's spiff (if you're
seeking $180k on contract, this would've been ok, but not by the time they add
the recruiter fee, they decide you're not worth $205k). The employer will
waste everybody's time in the process. This looks good (they think) to the
investors.

Push instead of pull to get your next job. LinkedIn, AngelList, a number of
other sites.. when it's a good fit, the interview will be suspiciously easy.

~~~
fitpolar
The game show reference is hilarious, and painfully true.

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git-pull
I disagree with the other comments. If you interviewed 30 times and are an
expert in the field, you probably made up for the variants at this point.

The culture today systematically lacks respect for seniority.

You don't give non-standardized technical screenings to candidates with a
demonstrable track record. What are you trying to do by screening people? Are
you saying that the applicant is potentially fraudulent?

Why isn't their technical screening standardized? What is it testing for? Is
there confirmation by an independent body the screening represents the
responsibilities of the role?

Some more factors:

\- If it's a startup and you have 10 years of experience, you'd have more
experience than most founders. Outshining the master is super-unemployable,
unless they're willing to split equity and let you in as a co-founder. Then
they're serious. Otherwise, you're just another programmer to them.

\- The person interviewing you doesn't want to hire the person who replaces
them. Then they'd be stuck job hunting like you. Unless they're retiring in
the near future, being _too_ good is probably going to get you a sham
technical screening, or some excuse that flunks you early on.

\- There is a reporting bias. Due to survivor guilt, you don't see people
chiming in every time they get their time wasted.

~~~
dmarlow
"Outshining the master is super-unemployable"

Any founder worth a grain of salt, i.e. one you'd want to work for, realizes
their weaknesses and strives to hire people smarter than they are.

~~~
git-pull
I think that's an idealization of what it _should_ be.

I think that's what would be best for business.

So, back at a company called Buzzr, we had an opportunity to hire a very
talented programmer known in the Drupal community. Many many accomplishments,
it's safe to say if we took him on, it'd radically change our day to day
operations (we needed to do _something_ , in my opinion). He really did
espouse the best of the concepts of Drupal, which was perfect, since we were a
Drupal SAAS platform.

We didn't take him on. There wasn't much chat - but I was able to scoop up
hearsay of why: He'd shake things up too much; too opinionated.

Here's the thing though: who would he be butting heads against? Nobody really
had strong technical opinions. I was really junior at the time, and would be
_honored_ to work with him.

If you're somebody that has accomplishments and a track record, you're going
to have opinions and a style. And for some reason, even startups where there
is open room for delegation, decision makers lean toward protecting their
turf. Even in situations where they couldn't do better themselves. Even when
they're desperate for help.

We're making the mistake of viewing organizations being game theorists that
make the most optimal decision - that's not always the case. Organizations
don't hire, divisions and teams within them do. In practice, it's more nuanced
and political.

It's safe to say, the decision maker's self-preservation overshadows the
business making the best decisions.

Sometimes irking the decision maker's pride - disdaining something superior to
them - is enough to end the process. It's less cognitive dissonance to just
move to the other 999 applications in the pile, than worry how we're going to
manage a generative, creative force. The narrative shifts to finding the most
"appropriate" candidate based on the hiring manager's sense of safety.

That's my anecdote.

~~~
dmarlow
Thanks for sharing. I found your views and points insightful.

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agitator
So I've been to a few interviews recently to feel out the market, and I
thought they went well, but it turns out they didn't. I was wondering why and
realized that as a senior engineer I seem to be confident in my abilities, and
don't really worry about not knowing something, because given a minute, I
could do some research and come up with a great solution. I realized though,
that interviews are not tuned for this. It's almost as if they are tuned to
new grads and filtering them out based on what academic knowledge they
retained, not pure problem solving skills. At least this is the vibe I got
from the large companies out there.

If I was determined to get another coding job in a large company, I realized I
simply need to conform, study, and prep. It only makes logical sense for them
to have this system to filter out the huge number of applicants, but for me
its like a waste of my time, reviewing and memorizing the specifics of a bunch
of stuff that I may continue to never use.

It's almost like my "imposter syndrome" early in my career lead me to put on a
veil of self-confidence and to "try hard" to prove myself. Which actually led
to positive interview outcomes (I used to ace each one I went to). Now I am
confident in my skin, and don't feel the need to compensate, which, I'm
realizing, actually has a negative effect on people's perception of me as an
engineer.

~~~
git-pull
This is why I say it hurts businesses too.

If they're interviewing people and giving them trivia questions, they
fundamentally don't understand the job.

We keep docs open all day. That's what browser tabs are for. Even seemingly
basic stuff. Too much to keep fresh in memory.

I don't remember libtmux's API (a library I created). How do you expect me to
remember python standard libraries I never used?

It's futile to explain to the interviewer - no matter how gently - that it's
not the way it's done. That's being a prima donna. That's upstaging them, and
going to be taken as a slight.

Part of the reason I'm passive in interviews is they already googled me (even
if they don't mention it). They know I can program. If they're throwing curve
balls at me, I ask myself if this is someone I want as a colleague. Is this
someone who would take my technical advice.

I leave the interview with a sense of relief I don't have to live through the
hell of a nightmare boss or toxic environment. Like a MoBA game, this is the
chance to dodge early.

Screening can works both ways.

------
anotheryou
The best advice I got (but not about technical stuff or homework):

Identify a problem the company has and offer a solution. When exactly to play
the card in the interview is up to you, maybe you can even phrase it in to a
question, I think most employers ask if there are any further questions at the
end of an interview. If you can than sprinkle some expertise on the solution,
even better (comparing it to some problem you solved in the past, not bragging
about expertise).

If you can't find anything concrete, maybe you find a few maybes you can ask
for and have a solution ready when they admit that something is a challenge.
They definitely will see that you know where things could get difficult.

------
LearnerHerzog
I hear you. I am on somewhere around a 0/20 streak right now. The industry can
have a lot of extremely pretentious people. I think you just need to be your
best self; show as much true passion about development as you have and wait
for somebody at a company you like who shares and appreciates your enthusiasm.
Also keep up with personal projects on Github to show you are active. This is
what was holding me back for a while before my last job.

~~~
dapplicant
Thanks for the advice, and good luck to you.

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mindvirus
A couple recommendations for you:

Interviewing is a skill like any other, and it's worth practicing. I know it's
not great to have to "play the game", but it'll help you greatly in your
career. I recommend two things - programming contests (TopCoder, HackerRank,
etc.), and practicing with friends - get a whiteboard and get your friends to
interview you. Repetition is key.

Think of good answers to higher level questions. For example, "why do you want
this job?".

Reflect on common patterns in your interviews. If you sit down and think about
it, do you know why you aren't passing? Are you unable to solve some problems?
Are you going slowly on the interview problems? Do people have trouble
understanding you? Do you get in arguments? Do you struggle with the
management sort of questions - i.e. "talk about a time that you had a
disagreement with someone on your team"?

One good signal is to think of how many hints do interviewers typically give
you? If it's one or two, that's typical, but when you find yourself getting
5+, it's usually a sign that you're doing poorly.

Some common problems that I've seen from candidates.

\- Can't solve problems. Especially when people run in some direction without
asking clarifying questions.

\- Really messy code. Interview code isn't going to be great, but I've seen
some really messy code.

\- Slow movement. Sometimes I'll have a 3 part question, and candidates will
spend the whole time solving the first part, often needing many hints.

\- Lack of opinion. I've seen a lot of candidates that try to be agreeable,
but just end up having no opinions. "What frameworks would you consider for
monitoring?" "Oh, whatever is best. Monitoring is really important." This is
really important for senior candidates.

\- Lack of answers for the high level questions (again more toward senior
candidates). Q: "Talk about a time that you've had a disagreement with someone
on your team?" A: "Oh, I haven't really." Q: "Ok, how about a time that you
made a technical decision that you ended up regretting." A: "I can't think of
anything, we've made good choices." Q: "What about a time that you've
disagreed with a decision from senior management?" A: "Got nothing." Q: "What
kind of software do you like working on?" A: "Oh, anything really."

------
godot
I see similar posts here every now and then recently, and I myself had a
similar experience a year ago when looking for a job after shutting down a
startup. I have a similar background and number of years as you do. Compared
to 10 years ago, I think we're at a place where there are a lot more qualified
full stack developers who meet baseline standards, which allow companies to be
a lot pickier (I find it a lot harder now to land a job offer compared to 10
years ago, personally). Which means you may have to "play the interview game"
\-- study and practice up on algorithms. It does kinda suck, but this might
just be the state of things now. Curious, do you happen to have relocated to
SF Bay Area? I'm wondering if the symptoms are SF-specific because there are
so many candidates in this area.

~~~
dapplicant
Some of the companies were based in SF, but I was interviewing remotely.

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Spooky23
Either you come off very poorly for a variety of reasons, or you're
interviewing for jobs that don't really exist or with companies that enjoy
wasting time on recruiting for sport.

Look for shorter term contract gigs. Those are usually real, and once you get
in the door, it's often easier to suss out what is real and what is not, and
who the players are in that org. Many of the best employees that I've seen
hired at non-entry levels came in through that route.

~~~
dapplicant
> Look for shorter term contract gigs

I initially applied for shorter contract gigs, but I found they had the same
interview process as full-time salaried gigs. In the future I'll push back on
some of the interview requirements for contract work.

------
xstartup
Did you try destroying the interviewer? Usually, when an interviewee gives us
the solution, we listen to them and then respond with, "you can instead do
this". Which includes some trap. Interviewees who don't blindly do what we say
and challenge our solution and explain us the reason pass our technical
interview. Also, the board interviews are trivial for an engineer/coder. We
usually ask very simple questions like "When would you choose linked-list over
an array?" or some language specific stuff like "What's the difference between
shared_ptr and unique_ptr?". It's trivial if you claim to have 10 year
experience in C++. I mostly interview for startups but we don't trust your
past title or years of experience by default even if it can be verified in
some way. Some body-shops, simply reward fancy titles in lieu of raise less
promotions which makes these titles useless.

------
mtmail
Out of curiosity, how long do these homework assignments usually take? A
friend has send me his (applied for a remote position) for review and it
looked like 4 hours best case. That was even before the phone interview. Doing
5 or 10 of those really adds up.

~~~
dapplicant
The most recent one was capped at two hours, but some can definitely grow to
the 6-8 hour range. The worst part is, the submissions are rarely discussed.
They're just a step to get to the next interview.

------
samfisher83
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take.

What would be the point of taking yourself out of the job force. You can try
applying Accenture or some other consulting company. They don't really
technically grill you.

~~~
nyddle
I think you underestimate the destructive impact of 30 failed interviews.
Stepping back and just doing algorithms for some time might be a good thing to
do at this point.

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bsvalley
Everyone wants to work in California and everyone wants to work remotely. So,
I think the combination of the 2 makes competition harder for you. I believe
that's pretty much it... 7 billion people on earth, there's always a handful
of people better than you (skills). Software isn't a niche anymore especially
with globalization and certain countries where billions (not millions) of
people have the exact same skills.

------
coderpact
After having similar trouble I started working on a "social network" of sorts
to assist with networking and learning programming career related things:
[https://coderpact.com](https://coderpact.com)

I am available (to you or anyone else) for mock interview sessions.

If you sign up I'll contact you or feel free to email me at:
contact@coderpact.com

------
dlanged
The key is to figure out WHY you don't do well in technical interviews, and
then fix the root cause.

Do you known/guess whether the problem is the actual technical part, or
everything surrounding it, which makes you appear as "sub-optimal cultural
fit", e.g. person that is so nervous that they make everybody else feel
uncomfortable too.

~~~
dapplicant
I don't know for sure, but I bet it's a bit of both (not necessarily at the
same time).

One time in particular I matched on every single technical requirement in the
job post, only to be told that "experience with our tech stack isn't important
as culture fit". I'm still not sure if he said that because he believed I
didn't have the tech experience and wanted to make me feel good, or if he knew
I had the experience but already knew he wasn't going to hire me.

~~~
dlanged
If you matched the technical requirements, then it seems exceptionally open
way of saying "you are not good culture fit".

Maybe next step is to figure out WHY you are perceived as bad culture fit?

Do you have any obvious issues like being very nervous in interviews, or
underlying general issues such as anxiety, or just being a very quiet person?

~~~
dapplicant
> nervous in interviews, or underlying general issues such as anxiety, or just
> being a very quiet person?

Yes, all three. The nervousness and anxiety are especially heightened during
interviews, but I don't experience either on the job. Does that make me not a
culture fit?

~~~
dlanged
Well, if you have solid technical experience, but are being very nervous and
quiet, and a recruiter tells you straight to face that "culture fit is more
important", then the reason for failing 30/30 interviews seems fairly clear.

Why don't you A/B test yourself? Take double dose of your favorite anxiolytic
and dress more casually to next interview and see what happens. If you fail
again then it's 31/31 and not a big loss.

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dmarlow
I don't think giving up at this point is something I would do in your
position. You're pretty much primed when it comes to interviewing. Not sure if
it's kosher or not, but I'm curious on your background, experience and what
your resume looks like.

Also, how did you come across these 30 interviews?

~~~
dapplicant
The majority of the interviews came from responding to ads on startup focused
job boards. I send a brief, personalized message which usually gets a
conversation started.

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amsh
I understand the pain. I am in same boat, trying for over 6 months. definitely
there is dome thing changed in the industry culture. you are competing with
every one in the world and need connections inside company

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ajeet_dhaliwal
Where did you relocate to?

~~~
dapplicant
California (not bay area), but primarily interviewing for remote roles.

