

Ask HN: Who's hiring non-developer/designer positions? - talbina

There's always some people like me who love technology and work at start-ups, but have no programming or design skills.<p>thanks
======
Travis
Obviously, at a tech startup, the primary street cred comes from being able to
do something technical. This doesn't necessarily mean coding or sysadminning,
but it DOES mean that you have to produce something in order to even get any
credibility.

My biggest issue with non-technical people is so much of what they do doesn't
produce deliverables. Sales/marketing? Might produce some brochures. Sure
produces money. But they don't actually build anything, making it hard for my
brain to properly evaluate their skills.

So if you're a non-technical person, what will you produce that can be
evaluated? Soft deliverables, such as reports, sales figures, etc., are more
difficult for a technical person to evaluate -- so we tend to discount them
(rightly, or wrongly) because the underlying knowledge of "how much talent /
time / effort did this require" isn't inherent in the work.

~~~
talbina
Sure you can. It's called revenue dollars. Most positions, whether we like it
or not, can be evaluated on a quantitative basis.

Sales/marketing ---> brochures? How about sales/marketing ---> money.

That's your problem that you tend to discount sales reports.

~~~
ant5
_Sure you can. It's called revenue dollars. Most positions, whether we like it
or not, can be evaluated on a quantitative basis._

To who, exactly, do you ascribe those revenue dollars?

The UX designer that came up with the feature the critical customer wanted?

The developers who collaborated and created it?

The QA team that made sure it actually works?

The sales person that sold what was there?

The salesperson's value isn't particularly clear in this equation. Could we
replace them with another sales person? What did they bring to the table that
was actually unique to them and not easily replaced? Would we have made the
sale anyway?

It's an incredible relative, subjective judgement to have to make.

~~~
billswift
All sales are the result of sales people, just ask a sales person, they'll
tell you.

------
winternett
Seek management jobs... Har. In order to work at a tech company, you should be
as knowledgeable about tech as possible, otherwise you'll end up being another
out of touch employee who can't pull their own weight in a desk job. If you
have writing skills, you can seek employment as a tech writer or in
administration.

~~~
talbina
[1] Reddit is run by four developers, who are not out of touch, who can't make
enough revenue despite their enormous size.

[2] Management jobs =/= non-developer jobs.

[3] What do you mean knowledgeable about tech as possible? Code, trends,
ideas...?

[4] How can an out of touch employee not pull their own weight in a desk job?
Nick Denton, Heather Harde, Eric Hippeau..guess all of these "can't pull their
own weight in a desk job"

~~~
ant5
_[1] Reddit is run by four developers, who are not out of touch, who can't
make enough revenue despite their enormous size._

Reddit is owned by Conde Nast. They don't have business people?

~~~
talbina
" Whenever this topic comes up on the site, someone always posts a comment
about how reddit is owned by Conde Nast, a billion-dollar corporation like
Time Warner or Cobra, and how if they wanted to they could hire a thousand
engineers and purchase a million dollars worth of heavy iron. But here's the
thing: corporations aren't run like charities. They keep separate budgets for
each business line, and usually allocate resources proportionate to revenue.
And reddit's revenue isn't great. "

<http://blog.reddit.com/>

~~~
ant5
That quote has absolutely nothing to do with anything we were just discussing.

Reddit's revenue isn't great, and company's maintain distinct budgets for
different properties, but exactly what does that actually have to do with
Conde Nast having business people that should be paying attention to this?

------
mrduncan
From the jobs page: Justin.tv is looking for a Head of Communications -
<http://www.justin.tv/jobs#communications>

[I don't work there, just remembered seeing it on the front-page a couple of
days ago]

------
jey
Do you have some marketable skill? That's what you need to focus on. Just
being enthusiastic is usually not enough.

Are you good at sales? Do you have demonstrated ability as a product manager?
Or maybe a background in technical writing? Etc.

~~~
bdickason
As a product manager I face this dilemma as well. I work on side projects but
I'm not a great coder and not a great designer.

The following areas have helped me become more 'active' in the early
development process:

-Learn an analytics engine (I like Google Analytics) like the back of your hand. Help engineers build great testing tools that work well w/ your analytics engine, then segment + comb the data for patterns that shape the direction of the company. (see: <http://www.kaushik.net/avinash/> and buy "Web Analytics 2.0" from Amazon for more info)

-Become very familiar with A/B split testing and other forms of automated online testing. Try to gain an understanding of adwords as well so you can send targetted users to your offerings and help developers make informed decisions about whether or not the product will have interested users that are cheap to acquire off the bat. (see: <http://visualwebsiteoptimizer.com/split-testing-blog/> for expertise/more info)

-Buy Silverback (<http://silverbackapp.com/>) and conduct user tests CONSTANTLY as in every day. Continously analyze the product, summarize user input, and pass that info off to development.

-Buy Balsamiq Mockups (<http://www.balsamiq.com/products/mockups>) and start prototyping pages with improvements or new features for existing apps. This can filter into User Experience/Information Architecture and I find that it's the best way for a 'product manager' to bridge the gap between design and development.

Sorry I know that these won't get you hired right away, but they will give you
the skillsets to work at a small (5-10 person) startup that is hiring people
who can 'contribute.'

~~~
maukdaddy
Can you contact me at the address in my profile? Sorry to pollute the thread,
but you don't have any contact info in your profile :(

I'm in a similar situation, and would love to break into the product
management area.

~~~
bdickason
Sorry I didn't realize the e-mail field didn't show up publicly! I'll send you
a quick note and updated my profile to include my personal e-mail going
forward :)

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felideon
What about technical support and customer service? Are you willing to do that?
You could then get into customer development or something like that.

But I can't answer your question as to who is looking.

------
agotterer
I launched startupshiring.com a week or two ago. It show cases positions at
startups that are programming and non programming oriented. Take a look. Love
to hear your feedback as well.

~~~
maukdaddy
Really nice! I'm looking to possibly relocate in the next year, so this will
be helpful in determining any jobs that might exist in other cities.

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FiddlerClamp
I'm a marketing/technical writer, and I've been wondering this too. A lot of
startups do the writing themselves, it seems, and it can suffer as a result.

Do people at startups ask their buddies for recommendations? I haven't seen
many posts on Craigslist from startups, and nothing on job search sites like
Monster.com.

------
rwhitman
I currently work with a guy who is a master of monetization - and he's
completely tech-braindead. Startups chase him down with countless lucrative
hiring offers every day.

You get good at monetization and you become worth more than your weight in
gold.

------
convel
<http://www.builditwith.me/>

~~~
SkyMarshal
Very cool, did you make that? Is it Sproutcore or Cappuccino?

~~~
convel
No, author is <http://www.drewwilson.com/>, it's Titan.

~~~
SkyMarshal
Thanks.

------
ant5
So what do you do, exactly?

We've talked about contracting a professional writer to help get our blog and
website into shape, ride us to blog about what we're doing, and help edit what
we do write.

~~~
augustflanagan
I'm not a "professional" writer, but I do write fairly often, and am working
on my own startup. I am looking for some part-time work sort of along the
lines you are mentioning.

What's your site/blog? You can check out my writing at <http://aflanagan.com>
and <http://blog.lenguajero.com>

Contact me if you want to talk more.

