
Apple now repairing MacBook keyboards in store, promising next day turnaround - crbelaus
https://www.macrumors.com/2019/04/23/apple-stores-prioritizing-mac-keyboard-repairs/
======
mikestew
The problem itself is a deceased equine that I'll not further bludgeon here,
but the comments section of that story was interesting in its level of
apologetics. "Hey, they're fixing it, quit complaining." In 30 years of owning
laptop computers, having never once had a keyboard go bad including the
coffee-spilled ones, a speck of dust renders my keyboard unusable and I'm just
supposed to suck it up without complaint? (Hypothetically; I personally have a
MBP, but not a newer one.)

I lied, I'll take one whack at this dead horse: with support costs continuing
to escalate (in-store inventory, training, and employees aren't free), _now_
will you fix the keyboards for realsies this time?

~~~
ksec
>"Hey, they're fixing it, quit complaining."

One of, if not the biggest problem with many of those Apple fanatic is that
Apple could do no wrong. And this is speaking as someone who like Apple but
increasingly irritated by their action.

~~~
cptskippy
I have a lot of admiration for what Apple has done but in the post Jobsian Era
they're focus seems to have shifted from elevating the personal computing
experience to reducing over costs and it's disappointing to say the least.

~~~
Veen
If they were focused on reducing costs, they’d be producing hardware of the
same quality as most Windows laptops.

~~~
cptskippy
You can reduce costs without sacrificing quality by identifying inefficiencies
within your organization and streamlining them. Tim Cook made a name for
himself by optimizing the logistical side of Apple. The cost reductions Apple
has done have less impact on material finish and quality of the solution, and
more impact reliability, repair-ability, and maintainability.

As a cost reduction technique, they rivet the keyboard to the upper chassis of
the Macbook rather than the comparatively expensive process of tapping holes
and using screws. This has no impact on product performance and quality, but
if you happen to use an inferior keyboard then it makes repairs exceptionally
difficult. As a result Apple is averse to performing repairs because what
could have been an inexpensive keyboard swap now requires replacing the entire
uni-body chassis which is an expensive machined part.

Another example is where the Macbook display FRC is soldered directly to the
panel to avoid a connector that costs a penny in volume. This reduces
manufacturing costs and part counts but introduces the risk that any issues
with the FRC require the entire display to be replaced. That's exactly what
happened because they made the FRC a few millimeters too short. Apple said
that display failures were isolated and not a manufacturing defect however
this year's model features an FRC that's a few millimeters longer.

These types of optimizations to the product might save a dollar or two in the
BOM but they completely fail to take into consideration support requirements
they introduce. Riveting a $ keyboard to a $$$$ machined aluminum chassis
makes you adverse to even acknowledging an issue with the keyboard because
you'll then have to replace the entire assembly. Forgoing a connector and
soldering a $ FRC directly to the $$$$ display means that when the FRC fails
due to stress from an engineering fault, you pretend it's an isolated issue to
avoid having to replaced entire display assemblies on thousands of devices.

~~~
Veen
I appreciate the informative response to my facetious comment. And, as someone
whose MacBook Pro suffered from the FRC issue, I agree.

------
scarface74
I’m usually the last person to say this. But someone should definitely get
fired over the 3 year keyboard fiasco. After the problems they had when they
were first introduced in the 12” MacBook, someone should have said its time to
switch directions.

~~~
cseelus
That would be Dan Riccio, wouldn‘t it? He is senior vice president of Hardware
Engineering, directly answering to Tim Cook and leading the Mac, iPhone, iPad
and iPod engineering teams.

Some of the current/recent failures that come to mind:

\- The MacBook keyboard issues discussed here

\- The MacPro disaster (thermal design issues -> no real update since almost
six years)

\- The The MBP 2018 thermal design issues

\- The MBP „Flexgate“ (display connector design flaw)

\- The AirPower debacle

\- The iPad Pro 3rd gen. „Bendgate“

~~~
pier25
Do you think the engineering team decides the thickness of laptops or the
design team (Ive) impose specs onto the engineers?

~~~
kevin_b_er
Apple operates on Form Over Function and has for years. The engineering team
is subservient to the design team. You are seeing the consequences of it live.
The engineering team knows the butterfly keyboard design is fundamentally
flawed, but the design team has priority. There's only so much the engineers
can do to make it Function while being constrained by Form.

This is the same type of corporate structural flaw as Boeing has, just without
the loss of life for Apple. They needed to sell the plane without re-
certifying, so the management demands some poor engineers work around it while
having their hands tied behind their back.

~~~
scarface74
You have no proof of that. They are both VPs. Once you have a certain level of
authority, you don’t get to shift the blame.

~~~
atomical
I'm curious why Apple engineering employees don't post here. It would be a
great time for that.

~~~
pier25
Maybe they do :P

~~~
scarface74
Jobs himself once said “Somewhere between the janitor and the ceo reasons stop
mattering”

And the discussion about the quote on HN

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2524855](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2524855)

------
zulgan
my laptop is pretty much extension of my hands, i eat with it, sleep with it
etc.. the keyboard breaking because of breadcrumb going in and me begging
apple to fix it, waiting and not being able to code was just too much for me

1 year ago i tried to fix it myself, broke the space bar crimps on 6 month old
mbp15, and they told me because i tried to fix it myself i have to pay 500E
for the repair. keep in mind i make my own keyboards, i did not even think i
will not be capable to remove a bread crumb from under the space bar.

few months ago I sold all my apple stuff, and have never been happier
[https://txt.black/~jack/bye-apple.txt](https://txt.black/~jack/bye-apple.txt)

~~~
indemnity
When I realised I have to use my top end 2018 MBP with external keyboard only,
I decided to spec out a new PC.

After being Mac exclusive since early 2000s, and having spent an ungodly
amount of money on their gear over the years.

They have a problem, and my patience is gone. No interest in a new Mac, and I
can see myself leaving their ecosystem entirely now that the macOS cord is
cut.

------
snorremd
The good old 2015 MacBook Pro keyboards were super nice. Why change a winning
formula? Was it the quest for ever thinner laptop bodies?

~~~
cletus
Literally to reduce thickness by 0.5mm.

It's said that design is the art of compromise and that perfection is the
enemy of the good. Unfortunately, Apple seems to have largely forgotten this.
The 12" Macbook was a perfect example of this: in the quest for thinness, it
was simply too much compromise.

The 13" Macbook Air (2011+) was, to me, basically a perfect laptop. Powerful
enough for most needs, light enough for most needs and not too expensive. I
feel completely differently if a $1000 laptop dies or is lost or stolen vs a
$4000 laptop.

The USB-C debacle is another example of this. Instead of a laptop that does
basically everything you now need to carry a dock or dongle or set of cables
instead. How does this make sense? And let's not forget that we lost MagSafe
with this too.

Sometimes I just want to throw my Macbook out the window.

~~~
srrr
A 14 inch Thinkpad X1 Carbon is as light, has the same thickness, all the
ports you need, double the processing power, AND has a really good long travel
keayboard.

Maybe Apple made a compromise. But if other companies can build the same
laptop without compromise Apple must do better.

~~~
cturner
The macbook (not air) is a bit over ten percent lighter than the x1. I don't
think it is worth it, for reasons you name, and run x1s myself. Still, Apple
does offer the lightest ultrabook on the market, and it may derive from the
nasty keyboard tradeoff.

~~~
srrr
For the Macbook the keyboard and ports might be a good tradeoff and it is
indeed a marvelous little machine. But I would not compare a X1 to a MacBook
because the X1 has a 4 Core CPU and is actively cooled. It sits somewhere
between the Air and 13 inch Pro.

------
kalleboo
Now if only the nearest Apple Store wasn't 4 hours away... I used to have hope
that they would open more Apple Stores, but Apple Japan has now even closed
all the stores outside of the 5 largest cities in the country.

edit: apple keynotes piss me off because they seem to only care about making
sexy flagship stores in cities that already have stores just brag about how
awesome they are. All I need is a normal store in a mall where I can buy stuff
and have it fixed in a reasonable time with reasonably competent staff. Just
makes it seem they're pivoting into a luxury brand instead of a technology
brand /rant from a Mac user for 29 years

~~~
adolph
Now if only a genius bar appointment was available next day. . . .

~~~
auggierose
Are there still genius bars though?

------
gerbilly
Who cares how thin the damn thing is if it's going to cause all these
problems?

Seriously, I could deal with a laptop that is 3mm thicker.

~~~
artursapek
I wonder if thinness was a KPI that Apple was just blindly tracking and doing
whatever they could to improve. They always brag about it with a giant slide
whenever they announce a new laptop. It is true that at some point, the stupid
thing doesn't need to be any thinner.

~~~
gerbilly
I fear that the touchbar was just to test the waters.

Soon to make laptops .5mm thinner, the macbooks will probably have
touchscreens keyboards instead of physical ones.

~~~
dawnerd
Would likely increase weight too much or battery use. Luckily they track those
stats too.

------
jweir
About time but, will the repaired keyboard just start breaking in a year? Or
is it a more robust design?

I have had 3 broken keys so far. Apple replaced one key, right in shop. I
replaced one out of my own pocket. And the other just broke last week.

I hate this keyboard so much - I miss my 2012 Macbook Pro.

~~~
hombre_fatal
Only some of the problems are easily demonstrated.

The keys coming completely off when you turn the laptop over is ideal because
the Genius can't really argue that one. You can cause this failure just by
habitually pressing on the bottom portion of a key. For me, it's always the T
key first.

But god forbid you only have a problem with the double-fires which doesn't
seem to present if you just hammer one key 20 times (which they do in shop).

I've had the entire front panel replaced for free now twice (so, includes a
new battery as well). And I've received my fixed laptop in the mail after a
one day wait which is a spectacular experience if it weren't for such a
debacle. But I'm nervous about the keyboard repair program ending once my
laptop is three years old.

~~~
dilap
Don't know if it's typical, but I had a double-fire problem that was
intermitent, and, of course, didn't show up when I tried to demonstrate it in
the store.

They said, no problem, we believe you, and replaced the keyboard anyway.

------
RandomBacon
The fact that this service/promise exists, indicates that this is a huge,
_real_ , problem that Apple shouldn't keep ignoring.

~~~
pier25
Indeed. I'm surrounded by Mac users and everyone is holding on to their old
macbooks.

------
netwanderer3
I would respect Apple a lot more if they would just accept the defeat and
publicly declare that their butterfly keyboard was a mistake and a complete
failure. It was a bold experiment, and they don't always work out but that's
okay! How could they not realize their stubbornness was precisely the reason
why many customers have turned their back on these new MBPs? I can't expect
them to be perfect or correct all the time, but it's more important to be able
to accept when you're this wrong.

~~~
RandomBacon
Don't worry, Apple has "courage" and of course will admit their mistake.

/s

~~~
indemnity
This attitude from Apple most of all is why I threw in the towel and stopped
giving them a pass.

Customer with LTV of almost six figures deciding to walk, but they won’t care,
and don’t realise their moat is crumbling with everyone like me who decides
it’s just a little too expensive and some of the qualities that made up for it
in the past are no longer there.

~~~
RandomBacon
I had a much lower LTV and I used to be a fan and wanted to work for Apple. My
attitude changed around the time of the "I'm a PC" ads. Back then I didn't
have much money so I only had a PC, and I could also customize my PC. I knew
how not to mess stuff up, so their attack ads felt like an attack on me. I'm
much more wealthy now, so my LTV could have been higher... (I've certainly
spent a lot more money since then on computers than people do on cars) oh
well.

------
bdamm
Sadly they can't fix the fact that my laptop has no Esc key.

~~~
wilsonnb3
It's pretty easy to remap to caps lock and doesn't take long to get used to.

The caps lock location is a superior place to put the escape key anyways.

~~~
bdamm
Oh yeah baby! Older revs of Mac OS X didn't have this option but now I see
that recent ones do. Whoo hoo! Back in business.

------
s_dev
We don't have Apple Stores in Ireland -- just CompuB which is an authorized
seller of Apple products. Does this apply to authorized merchants such as them
who can represent Apple?

~~~
udev
Funny because Apple's money is in Ireland, but not their stores.

~~~
bdcravens
Ireland isn't as population dense as many areas. There's only one city with
more than 1M people, and only one more with more than 100,000.

------
brycehamrick
I just took my MacBook Pro in for butterfly keyboard issues and was quoted 5-7
business days, and I have coverage under Apple Care. I haven't taken it in yet
because I mostly use an external keyboard and that would be extremely
disruptive to my work, maybe I'll try again and see if they can do it in
store.

------
Wowfunhappy
Do we have any idea _how_ they are doing this on a technical level? I was
under the impression the butterfly keyboards were very difficult to replace,
to the point where large pieces of the computer had to be replaced alongside
it.

------
duxup
Have they fixed this as far as manufacturing goes now?

Or is there something inherent to the design that makes them prone to this
issue that can't be fixed?

~~~
reasonablemann
Numerous manufacturing patches. All failures.

~~~
duxup
Oh man that's bad.

------
franze
just got mine one repaired returned today - so cool - a computer you can write
stuff on without constant fear.

only thing is, my substitute thinkpad x230 with (stripped down) linux mint
reminded me how a good computer (& keyboard) can really feel, so i will prop.
use that one for coding, and the mac retina display one for netflix & keynote.

~~~
kmlx
two issues with thinkpads

1\. they’re crazy thick. i travel a lot, and i need good cpu and ram and very
light, very thin laptops. something like the huawei, or any of the macbook
pros.

2\. macos. because linux is still a drag.

~~~
kitsunesoba
The two things keeping me with Apple for computing are consistency
(surprisingly a problem with many PC vendors) and yes, macOS.

Linux might be ok if its nvidia drivers weren’t so flaky, its Broadcom
wireless drivers didn’t break with random system updates, and its app
ecosystem put a bigger emphasis on high quality UX and made up its mind about
UI conventions, but I don’t see any of that improving any time soon…

~~~
thinkingemote
Proprietary hardware and software is fine! Don't feel guilty about not using
Linux. It's simply not for you. Be happy with your choice with Apple. You can
still support and use FOSS software on those computers if you like.

------
munificent
What a colossal fuck up.

My 2016 MacBook Pro has the best keyboard I've ever used in my life. It is a
joy to type on. Of all the things that needed "improving" in my laptop, the
keyboard would have been dead last.

Hell, if they were still selling 2016 MPBs today with the _exact same specs_ ,
I'd take that over a 2018 one.

~~~
wilsonnb3
Wasn't 2016 the year they switched to the butterfly keyboard?

~~~
munificent
Sorry, yes, got the date wrong. "About this Mac" says:

"MacBook Pro (Retina, 15-inch, Mid 2014)"

I guess I've had it longer than I realized! Still holding on to it desperately
hoping Apple ships a new MacBook with a fixed keyboard before this one dies.

------
jasoneckert
The keyboard is the most important part of a mobile computer. The fact that
Apple has released _arguably_ the worst keyboard since the 1980s in the MBP
line these last few years to make it thinner shows how much they really care
about their customer base.

------
marcinzm
Now if only they fixed the display cable issues that require replacing half
the laptop (and $500+) to fix. For a tiny cable. Because it was soldered on.

This is basically my last personal macbook, it's just not worth the money for
repairs and hassle.

~~~
cptskippy
They fixed that in the new revision without ever acknowledging it was ever a
problem.

[https://ifixit.org/blog/13979/apples-2018-macbook-pros-
attem...](https://ifixit.org/blog/13979/apples-2018-macbook-pros-attempt-to-
solve-flexgate-without-admitting-it-exists/)

Ya know because to responsibility == liability == lower revenues.

~~~
marcinzm
That's nice. But only until the next set of issues that cost $500+ to fix that
they never take responsibility for. So, still not buying a mac again.

~~~
cptskippy
I wasn't trying to praise Apple, but rather admonish them. They have
consistently denied there was an issue and yet silently fixed the issue on the
back end. To me, that's really bad form and demonstrates contempt for your
customers.

~~~
Betelgeuse90
The sad thing is that it wasn't even fixed after they added those membrane, it
only reduced the failure rate by a small margin. You can still find pretty
much just as many reports online of the same failures.

------
dang
Url changed from [https://9to5mac.com/2019/04/23/macbook-keyboard-repair-
progr...](https://9to5mac.com/2019/04/23/macbook-keyboard-repair-program/),
which points to this.

------
atomical
I'm surprised that they are doing this since it's such a _small_ problem.

------
Twisell
Hello I’m a MBP owner with no keyboard problems after 2 years and I’m actually
very happy to know that if I ever got an issue it will be replaced for free
thanks to the extended repair program.

I am really alone???

Are others commenters all dissatisfied customers or just ranters who don’t
work on macOS anyway ? Very curious...

~~~
dhbanes
About a month, my early 2013 MacBook Pro died so I replaced it with a brand
new 2018 MacBook Air with the latest generation butterfly keys.

I'd previously tried out someone else's 2016 MacBook Pro with the first
generation butterfly keyboard. I actually immediately liked the new keyboard
and knew I'd get used to it almost immediately if I ever switched.

10 days into my 2018 MacBook Air ownership, I started experiencing "sticky"
keys with characters repeating themselves and/or not registering. This was on
a brand new computer that had always remained closed when not in use and
hadn't even moved from my desk.

Luckily, I was within the 14-day return period and I was able to walk into an
Apple store and swap out the defective unit for another new MBA that (so far)
doesn't have the sticky key issue.

I am now close to the end of the return period for my second MBA and I live in
fear that the issue will present itself and I'll need to be without my
computer while some Genius Bar employee tears apart my brand new $2,000 laptop
and follows some mitigation procedure that is not guaranteed to last long.

I believe Apple has the resources to make this keyboard mechanism work but has
not allocated those resources appropriately.

~~~
hsbaut76
If I was you, I'd return the computer and get a refund , purchase a second
hand laptop, 2015 MacBook Air or maybe a ThinkPad and wait for a year or two.
Apple have legit gone downhill and your better off with something a little
older but tried and battle tested.

Older MacBook Airs are excellent machines.

