
Ask HN: Techniques for surviving a job you loathe? - trevaa
I would love to get some advise from people who have been in less than ideal situations and how they got through it. I would love to know techniques for dealing stress, mundane work environments, and not being challenged.<p>I was involved in a startup for a year that ended early last year because the person funding it got cold feet - it was his idea. As a result, I basically took the first job I could find, which is in the finance industry. My roles to date have largely been around management of people and architecture.<p>My home town is literally at the bottom end of Australia. Beautiful place but there are very few development jobs and no paying startups here.<p>I have a child with another on the way. My partners salary is insufficient for us to live on.<p>My job is a dev at a medium size company (around 300). The development in this company is appalling, non scoring on the Joel test and the work is boring. There is no challenge, people play games on their phone and sleep all day. The managers are micromanagers and the developers sit at the bottom of the org chart (this is a software company).<p>I&#x27;m building a cool product out of work, but I&#x27;m at it alone and I fear that someone will beat me to market (trying for bare minimum viable product). I also fear burn out (has happened before), the company attempting to invoke its IP clause of contract when they find out (legal advice has been that they have no ground).<p>I&#x27;m working 8h a day in my day job and 5-6h a night on the startup. I take weekends off to spend time with the family.<p>I have a deep understanding and portfolio of experience across mainframe development, enterprise Java, .NET, mobile apps &amp; web development. I need something that challenges me - moving is off the cards due to baby #2 &amp; I doubt selling remote work (if I can find a reliable income stream) to my partner.<p>For those who have been in similar situations: how did you manage and balance everything?
======
ChuckMcM
Read? Sounds like a sad place but if you're really in a place where you can
'play games on your phone and sleep' then create enough automation to meet
what ever goals your manager sets for you, and then start learning more stuff.
You might also find organizational dynamics and management books fun to see
how they apply in your current situation.

Some of the other folks there might be in the same boat you are, they are also
your potential hires if you started your own company in the same area, so get
to know them, figure out their strengths and weaknesses, what they are
motivated by and what doesn't motivate them.

Talk to the managers and see what they are trying to get done (you mention
they micro manage a lot) perhaps you can puzzle out what the group of them
have been tasked to accomplish. If you like solving puzzles that can be
entertaining for a while.

Look around for things that don't work well (are the printers always out of
paper? Phones constantly ringing with no one answering?) see if you can
engineer a way to solve one of those problems.

The bottom line is take ownership of challenging yourself to do something
productive, don't wait for someone to either tell you what to do or "give you
permission" to do that.

~~~
philsnow
I'm no lawyer (nor do I have any knowledge of how the law is different in
Australia), but this might cause trouble when the employer asks whether trevaa
used any of the company's resources to work on his side project.

If he's using their time / lights / heat / AC / lunch / asking coworkers /
etc, to read about topics that are directly applicable to his side project,
that muddies things considerably even if he's otherwise kept separation
strict.

Consider taking it one step further, and bringing in your own laptop (even if
you're not connected to their wifi) to work on the side project in your
underutilized time. That's probably too far, but is it really any farther than
reading books ?

One thing that you might find more productive than playing games on your phone
that seems unequivocally "safe" in this context is meditation. An hour or two
of that might help make better use of your ~5h at home in the evening.

~~~
lmm
In any technical job you learn things that are useful in future jobs. I don't
see how a lawyer could possibly object to "I was studying to improve my skills
and enhance my value to the company". I certainly don't see how meditation
would be better in this regard - that's just as much "using company time to
get better at my side project", and there's less of a case that it helps you
at your employer.

~~~
ashleyp
That's advice definitely from someone who doesn't meditate regularly or has
felt the benefits of doing so :).

~~~
lmm
It's not about what I think the benefits are, it's about what the company
and/or its lawyers think the benefits are.

~~~
ashleyp
Again, a response from someone who doesn't understand meditation. It does
increase learning and self improvement to a greater level than virtually any
other task. Why? Because it develops metacognition. You can find many
resources and videos documenting the benefits of meditation, the brain
structures it changes, improvements to executive functions, self control,
motivation, etc.

~~~
read-eval-prt
Then how come those monks that invented it didn't contribute to science,
didn't take over the world, etc?

~~~
ashleyp
Uhhh what? Lol? Monks did not invent Meditation :). Humans have used
meditation for thousands of years. Some of the best world leaders use
meditation...

Monks additionally do contribute to science. A lot infact. When i've visited
monistaries neuroscience is often a key theme and they'll explain how
different interactions literally affect you're brain chemicals.

You know that individuals who are going through horrific experiences can
stumble on meditation themselves? They realise they can use it to draw
strength to help them deal with situations by using it. They arnt taught, they
don't come across the information on the internet. Only when adults do they
realize that there's a name for what they have been doing.

People think that meditation is just "for relaxation". It's not. That is one
SMALL benefit if you only use it once or a few times a month briefly. The
other many other small benefits i've found from meditating once a week. And on
the scale of benefits, I would say increased self-discipline and control of my
own mind, motivation, concentration, happiness is in the "small benefits"
category. And I have ADHD so these small benefits improve life immensely for
me.

People who have trained for years can use it to generate an experience similar
to an LSD trip. You can look at the positive effects of LSD in scientific
experiments yourself.

Hope that somewhat answers your questions :).

------
KhalPanda
It may sound trivial, but the first thing I'd do is ensure your diet is in
check and that you're getting enough exercise. Being unhappy in other aspects
of your life can really make a crappy job seem even crappier.

A 13-14 hour work day sounds pretty daunting. Could the pressure you're
putting on yourself with the startup be making your day job even more
unbearable? Your concerns about being beaten to market are understandable, but
remember that there's almost definitely as much (if not more) work to be done
when you actually get your product _to_ market. It likely won't be a picnic,
so making sure you balance your time between work/pleasure now is important.

And one last thing - if people can get away with sleeping or playing games on
their phones all day, it sounds like a pretty 'lax' working environment. It
sounds like it has the potential to be whatever you make it.

Sorry if I've stated the obvious & good luck!

~~~
trevaa
I completely agree with you. When I burnt out about five years ago I was
overweight and are crap. I'm on top of that - walk an hour each day (which I
find almost meditative) and also don't eat fast food.

You're very right - i see the day job as holding me back from doing great
things and a complete waste of time.

------
lordbusiness
Sorry for terse list form, but I'm knackered after a long day and still have
plenty to do. But I sympathize with your plight so here goes.

#1 Diet and exercise. Healthy body, healthy mind.

#2 Take the paychecks. If you can phone it in at work, and your employer is
undeserving, then make money for no mental effort.

#3 Consider full time remote work. This is more and more viable. You can work
for an awesome company with driven and smart people right from your home, or
local library, or beach in Tahiti.

#4 Exit strategy. Focus on maximizing money and ease to move into something
else. Get planning, and be selfish and strategic.

~~~
jchrisa
Plus one on remote work. I'm the only one in my company in my town and it
makes me very productive.

~~~
ianlevesque
This is the right answer. Remote work gets a lukewarm reception on HN but it's
incredibly useful. Our entire development team is remote and wouldn't have it
any other way.

~~~
smeyer
>Remote work gets a lukewarm reception on HN

I see people praising remote work on HN all the time. I also see people
mention downsides, but I wouldn't have described the reception as lukewarm.

~~~
lordbusiness
I certainly understand the previous statement regarding lukewarm reception.

It's quite the crazy paradox because in my mind's eye, if any group has the
perfect combination of ability, globalized community, and gen-y go-getter
attitude, it's Hacker News. Yet to my constant surprise people here tend to
lean towards meatspace for some intangible but enthusiastically cited reason
about productivity, and worse still, plenty of those people even praise cube
farms.

It's most odd to me. Please be gentle with the down votes; I'm just expressing
an observation.

~~~
mooreds
I've been part of both 'meatspace' and virtual teams. I think that remote work
has huge advantages, but some disadvantages. The main disadvantage I see is
that there's a barrier to communication. Of course, in the same room you have
barriers to communication, but we're all attuned to how to overcome them.

You can work to overcome the remote communication barriers with skype,
conference calls, on sites, slack/im, etc, but those are all learned behaviors
that take some time to spin up on.

I think on HN there might also just be a SV/SF bias.

------
candu
Start interviewing elsewhere - anywhere you can find. Even if you don't plan
to leave, having another option boosts morale and gives you more confidence to
discuss concerns with your current company. It also gives you leverage in
negotiating with other places you interview at - even if your local options
are limited, maybe you can reach a remote-work arrangement with a company
elsewhere in Australia. (Also: don't be discouraged if your first few
interviews don't work out. Interviewing is a skill, and like any other skill
it improves with practice.)

Take time for yourself and your personal development. While working on your
startup at work is _extremely_ inadvisable (see your legal concerns
above)...if you feel like the pace at work is slow, do your work as quickly as
possible and use the remaining time to move forward in some way. Learn a new
language. Solve programming contest problems. Start a Toastmasters chapter at
work. These sorts of things increase your sense of personal control over your
situation; I cannot overemphasize how important that is.

Isolation is another dangerous trap. Find local developer meetups or board
game nights or friendly pickup sports events. Talk with others about your
situation. (For the same reason, asking here on HN is an excellent step to
take. I'd wager most of us have encountered some variant of your problem.
Also, asking people who aren't close friends can be surprisingly liberating,
as you don't have as much emotional investment in their response.)

Hope this helps :)

~~~
hluska
I second the advice about starting a Toastmasters chapter - not only is TM an
amazing organization, but it sounds like a perfect tonic for this
organization...

------
benjohnson
For me, the joys of children trumped job fulfillment - my work became a way to
make a reasonable income as my day revolved around my family.

Perhaps this may work for you as you make prudent steps to find a better work
environment.

------
vayarajesh
What I used to do is go to office 2 hours earlier and work on my stuff,
anything I liked and develop something. Rest of the day somehow passes with
this good inner feeling that I worked on something meaningful that interests
me.

Before I used to work on my personal projects after the office hours and I
used to not like it sometimes because I am mentally tired due to useless day
job. But working on my stuff early first thing in the morning keeps me going

I live in Dubai and there is no ground-breaking work done here - not even
close - and I totally rely on HN to learn whatever I can and stay informed at
least. Working on open source projects is the only way I see to get connected
to the 'real' world of development and startups.

If you are willing to work remotely you should try the below sites - there are
some good jobs [https://angel.co/jobs](https://angel.co/jobs)

[http://remoteworking.co](http://remoteworking.co)

[http://careers.stackoverflow.com/jobs](http://careers.stackoverflow.com/jobs)

With regards to balancing everything, I think once you get the job you love
everything else falls into right place because majority of your day and week
is spent on job which is 8 hours a day and if those 8 hours a day is fruitful
the other minor issues don't matter..

------
toyg
I've been there. There are actually two different issues in your situation:
the boring job you can't leave, and the exciting job you can't start. You have
to pick one, and go pedal-to-the-metal.

If you think your moonlighting has merit but you feel overwhelmed, look for
remote partners who can work with you, and/or go hunting for finance. Finance
is critical, because it will allow you to part ways with DumbCo without
putting you and your family into hardship. If you can't face the idea of
asking around for money, then you'll likely never be suited for business
anyway, so just give up and dedicate yourself to the family or to bettering
the company you work for, or to find a better (remote) job -- that's more or
less what I did, back in the day; as depressing as it sounds, it worked out
OK.

Btw, if at any point in time your employer (pedestrian web-design agency, by
any chance?) takes you to task for you being "distracted", taking too many
personal calls etc, turn it around as their fault: they clearly cannot
motivate you, and anyway everyone else is playing on their phones.

The alternative to all this is just to put your head down and revolutionise
the company you work for. Do things the way you think they should be done, the
way that will result in higher productivity. Believe it or not, a lot of
micromanagers simply don't have the bottle to repeat a challenge more than
once, and after a while they'll probably leave you alone or recognise your
approach actually has merits.

Both scenarios are really a way to say that you'll have to man up. There is no
easy way out; but nothing risked, nothing gained...

~~~
trevaa
My opposition to seeking money is that I don't believe there is much of the
way of angel investors in Australia, but my main opposition is taking an
investment and then having a new boss to answer to. I don't want to chance
getting into the same situation by answering to someone who really doesn't
know what they're talking about.

With regards to inciting change.. I have tried for twelve months now, they
can't be helped. It's not web design, its financial software - they use
notepad for tracking bugs and excel for project management.

~~~
Mandatum
There are - I'm in New Zealand which is a similar but much, much smaller
market. You'll need to travel - just as you would in rural New Zealand, you'll
have to go where the investors are and meet them.

Wellington and Auckland are the big cities here - I assume
Melbourne/Sydney/Brisbane for you? Are there meetups in Adelaide? Go and ask
questions!

~~~
GFischer
Mandatum is right, there must be some kind of financing in Australia, it's a
huge and prosperous country.

Edit: I found a lot with just a basic web search. I understand they might not
want to fund you if you stay part-time though.

Edit again: maybe you can get some kind of government agency to help you out,
there are Early Stage Funds, Grants, etc... plenty of help around :)

[http://www.business.gov.au/grants-and-assistance/grant-
finde...](http://www.business.gov.au/grants-and-assistance/grant-
finder/Pages/Search.aspx?collection=business-gov-
au&profile=grant&search_type=grant&query=software%20start%20up)

See also

[https://angel.co/australia/investors](https://angel.co/australia/investors)

If you're not in debt, maybe you can save a very minimum nest egg (1 month of
expenses, whatever you need to find a job in case it fails), and go for it,
since it looks that the worst case scenario is going back to a job that can't
be much worse than where you are now.

I certainly agree with toyg's advice, if you believe in your project, then go
for it. Also, your deadline might be artificial (I don't know what you're
building), it's good to get an MVP out there fast, but not being first to
market might not be a killer.

------
rjdagost
Once due to life circumstances I was stuck for a few years in a job I hated
for much of the same reasons (limited growth, very bored, yet simultaneously
very stressed due to ridiculous deadlines). One thing that helped me get by
was to have my employer pay for me to learn new things. I really wanted to
learn a particular programming language, so gradually over time I built up a
compelling case that learning this language would help the business. And it
did help the business, especially after my employer paid for me to become an
expert. After my life circumstances changed and I was able to move on I had a
great new skill on my resume that propelled me to much better opportunities.

So my point is you should try to turn your current predicament into a
launchpad for bigger and better things.

~~~
devonkim
A lot of enterprises that are terrible t work at won't even pay for that kind
of self development because they're so dysfunctional they can't put the money
towards a solution after decades of being in a form of survival mode. I don't
know what situation OP is in specifically wrt the organizational dysfunctions
but I can sympathize very much with feeling entrapped and can only imagine the
pressure with children involved.

The first thing I'd recommend is solid at-work time management - your goal
should be to do the bare minimum to do well and make steady progress there in
terms of you literally doing nothing but somehow being essential - a lot of
managers do this after all, why not make it factual instead of how you
perceive your job? But your heart and focus should really be on getting out of
there and possibly using your side projects as evidence, not your day job
(you're likely working on code that is far below your capabilities partly
because you're too stressed to take on effectively now btw).

Most people besides your peers will have trouble understanding how tough it
can be to be a breadwinner stuck at a job that's a deadend when you have so
much passion to do better, so staying connected with people that can inspire
you is critical. I'd say it's probably kept me from going completely insane
and doing things I'd really regret just out of sheer frustration.

Exercise helps with few doubts but it won't help much unless you're managing
your time effectively to keep the stress and workload at bay so you don't die
of adrenal gland failure or something asinine.

Keep your head up and try to record your progress for yourself and try to
limit work to side projects that do go somewhere and really understand what a
minimum viable product means and take it from an entrepreneurial approach than
engineering one.

------
jmgtan
My situation is very similar to yours, am employed in a big enterprise
software company and the work is very demoralizing. I do 2 things in my spare
time, work on a product of my own, and do my own consulting business
(development and high scalability architecture design), these 2 keep me sane
and it actually makes me look forward to going home so I can do my own thing.

In the office, I try to help out the junior folks as much as I can, might as
well make the best of a bad situation and maybe earn a bit of reputation as
the go to person for software architecture. Also don't let go of your health,
even if you don't like your job, no sense dragging down other aspects of your
life with it. I tend to exercise every other day (alternating between cardio
and free weights), and don't forget to eat healthy, it makes a huge difference
in terms of your overall mood and energy level.

I think it's even worst in my place since my boss doesn't listen to other
people's opinions and is more of a dictator. The result is something similar
to the Fizz Buzz Enterprise Edition.

------
pragmar
You might think about keeping an eye out for jobs in higher-ed if there are
any colleges or universities nearby. At least in the US, higher-ed jobs
typically have generous vacation benefits and a better than average work
culture. Unfortunately, they pay less than market, but for a lot of people,
it's a fair trade. A couple extra weeks of vacation a year isn't the be-all,
end-all, but it does go a long way toward moving the needle on a side project.
Long-term, maybe figure out how to move near an economic hub--which I realize
is easier said than done.

------
bearwithclaws
Spend less.

I know Australia is an expensive country (and moving is out of the picture),
But if you're able to cut down your spending by 50%, you'll be able to save
enough money to quit your job soon. Apart from that, spend some time doing
steady consulting to start building an alternate income stream. Once your
consulting income can support your entire family, quiting is a no-brainer :)

------
zeeshanm
I think the obvious solution is to look for another job. I know some startups
that hire for remote work in San Fran. Reddit does it among many others. There
is a huge engineering talent vacuum so it's a good likelihood for you to find
employment working remote. It may be easier to pitch a really early stage
startup given you are not actively developing. You may not get scores of
salary though but more than likely you can make a little over six figures.

I think by posting this question here you know what you want to do. Now, I
hope you can just go and do it - good luck!

------
jonnyscholes
Hey! If you're from where I think you are you should definitely make an
appearance and a local meetup a friend (@joshgillies) and I run monthly called
Web Developer 42°. We have a couple of locals talking about anything from
database security to git flow to front end design tooling. Beer, soft drink
and pizza provided - and it's free!

Knowing local people who love what you love can make a big difference. Whilst
dev jobs are few and far between down here, they do crop up - usually in
smaller consulting firms. All of the consulting firms down here generally have
a presence at #wd42. And everyone that meets really cares about the sorts of
things on the Joel test - so any potential employers you may meet here are on
the same page.

We'll be putting out the speaker list next week but in the meantime hit up our
website ([http://web.dev42.co/](http://web.dev42.co/)) and maybe follow us on
twitter. If you want an email reminder email me and I'll add you to the
announcement list.

If you are from here, shoot me an email (in profile) and we can catch up for a
#pubhack, #coffeehack or similar. I'm not a hirer - but I love to code and
enjoy coding with others.

Edit: I thought you meant Hobart (as it is literally at the bottom end of
Australia) but was mistaken. Either way if anyone is down here on the last
Wednesday of any month come to #wd42 for a beer. We're friendly only some of
us have 2 heads!

~~~
brc
Well, Hoabrt is the bottom of Australia...the OP should fix up the original
post!

------
trevaa
I just wanted to emphasise that while the employment situation isn't good, I'm
more keen on actually starting a business thank moving to another job, unless
something really challenging and exciting comes along. With that said though I
would never quit my day job and lose that security until my product had paid
me 1.5x annual salary. I'm in regional Victoria, but a commute to Melbourne
isn't viable for me and all our family is out this way.

~~~
gsb
I'm struggling to imagine any 300-head software company based in regional
Victoria. Are you in a satellite office of a larger org?

------
stealthflyer
I can relate, it is hard to balance the loathing/apathy, ambition, and family.
Family comes first, so maybe the hours spent on the side project needs to be
re-evaluated. If you have a relaxed environment, maybe you can layer your work
and side project. Maybe you might find a coworker who also can help out. I
would recommend talking to your manager to see what options are available
(less hours, more pay, more challenging work). I like to believe good managers
exist who would be able to help (somewhere, maybe just not at your place).

I try to make challenges at work by looking at things another way (e.g. switch
a programming language or ask for another opinion). That will only increase
stress though, so be careful because you might be in a good place if the work
is easy and expectations are low.

What is your goal for the side project? Money, experience, or curiosity? Can
you find another way to either get more money or more experience that won't
involve you spending an extra 5 hours?

I can let you know that in my case I spent a small time looking around and
evaulating options ultimately finding a slightly better job. Be optimistic.

~~~
trevaa
The 2000 character limit removed the aim part... I just want to build a
business for the sake of it. I want a good wage. I don't want to be a
multimillionaire (but would be nice) - I just want security and the ability to
work for myself.

With regards to making work more challenging in the day job, that's the
problem. They aren't open to anything. It's all set in stone. Hell, I'm not
even allowed to refactor or write unit tests. Unit tests here refer to manual
testing checklists.

~~~
stealthflyer
So curiosity is the primary motivation. You don't have to be first to market.
That makes it easier, you can focus on making it better. Or just launch it
now, you will get a different experience (e.g. Kickstarter or something).
Breaking even and making money takes a long while, so you have to be able to
fix the day job first.

Have you tried a lunch and learn to build up a case? Teaching people something
new and answering questions is a different type of challenge and allows you to
build some support to fix things that seem to be set in stone. Is there any
way to do your day to day a different way? What about trying a new tool to
record testing results?

------
yasirghufran
Here are 3 things you should do:

1\. Read the 4-hour work week. Its a book that will help you escape the rat
race.

2\. Start meditating. Every morning, just sit still for 10 min and imagine the
things that make you happy. It seems foolish, but it works.

3\. Make friends at work. That is the only way I'm currently able to survive
my workplace. Im sure you're not alone, and many people in your organization
feel the same way. Cheers!

------
mproud
Focus on the things that make you happy — and get people interested in making
you happy!

Maybe it’s being able to help a good person save $100 they don’t need to
spend. Maybe it’s spending time with your co-workers and reminiscing old
times. Maybe it’s being able to play with your kids. Maybe it’s revisiting a
hobby you put down years ago, or going on a vacation with your significant
other.

Once you’ve found those things, tell it to people! Tell it friends! Tell it to
your family! Let them see what makes you happy, and when you aren’t happy, let
them guide you to why you do what you do. Maybe they’ll suggest new things
you’d be interested in.

Yes, there are sweeping changes you make in life. However, you will always
find small things that just suck. Focus on what makes you happy and find
people who are interested in your well-being. If you still feel stuck, start
by doing something (anything) differently.

~~~
teknologist
hacker news group hug man

------
DanBC
You raise a bunch of interconnected stuff.

Here's a list of what might help:

1) keep a good work life balance. Make sure you're doin things you enjoy
outside work. This helps you stay resiliant in work.

2) save money. Buildig up savings allows you to just walk out of work if you
ever need to. It also allows you to spend money on other stuff - creating your
product for example.

3) realise that actually you can just walk out of that job. Things would not
be nice, but you would cope. It would not end the world.

4) gently start addressing the worst parts of work. Realise that you mght not
be able to change anything, but try anyway. Make constructive suggestions at
360 feedback performance reviews. Make sure that what little control you do
have is used effectively.

Protect your mental health! It's important. Good luck with the children too!!

------
overgard
I had some jobs that weren't that interesting on their own, but I found it was
much more interesting if I made challenges for myself. Sometimes I joked that
I was trying to automate myself out of a job, but then I tried to do that.
Sometimes I'd just do silly things like try to game the system by solving as
many rally/whatever agile points as possible in a day, just to make a point
about how silly some of that stuff was. Sometimes I'd write scripts and stuff
in a language I didn't know well to learn more. I guess it depends on your
environment and rules, they may be more strict, but usually there's a way to
make boring work more interesting by tying it to something else that helps you
grow, or challenges you in some way.

------
thaumaturgy
I have a slightly different point of view from most of the comments here so
far.

1\. Your #1 priority really has to be your family. I'm not assuming your
family isn't important to you -- clearly it is -- but, it has to be more
important than building a product or starting your own company. You're
spending at minimum 65 hrs/week doing "not family", and that's a bit too much.
You have 1.5 young kids, and what you do now, as a parent, will shape their
future for the next several decades. It will change how they relate to other
people, how they raise their own kids, and so on. If you want to have an
impact on the world, focus on raising your kids.

2\. So your job is your job. I mean, separate your self-worth from your
employer. Show up, do what they ask, collect a paycheck, go home. One of the
best things I ever did was step out of the computer industry for a few years
and pick up a bunch of different jobs, including retail. I will still happily
put in a lot of extra effort for any employer that wants it and is willing to
reward me for it, but I can also show up every day, do the job, and go home,
and have lots of other things to care about other than what's going on at
work.

3\. That said, if you can't learn how to do that, just show up and do the work
and go home and forget about it, then you have to keep looking for a new job.
That really should be your spare time gig, IMO, before other projects. It
becomes your responsibility as a parent to try to find a job that values you
and wants to pay you more so that you can provide more financial stability for
your family -- and the best way to do that is with a better job, not a
startup. HN is about the worst place to get this kind of life advice, because
it's heavily skewed towards the attraction of risk-taking and the success
stories when those risks pay off, but the reality is that the odds are not in
your favor. There are a lot of bright and talented and ambitious people here
on HN -- thousands, at least -- and of those, maybe only a handful have found
something resembling wealth and stability, and of those, I'd bet most of them
went through some pretty bad times. Do you really want to try to juggle all of
that and a family at the same time?

I'm not saying you shouldn't work on your project at all, but that your
priorities should probably be family, better job, and then project, in that
order.

And, the consistent advice on HN is not to worry too much about being beaten
to market. If someone else gets there first, it gives you an opportunity to
see if there is a market at all for your product without having to suffer
through the market research yourself (which these days typically consists of,
"gosh, I really hope someone buys my product/service"), and you get to see
what kind of mistakes they make, and learn from them. If it's a good market,
there will be room for at least two of you.

\--

There's a thing I do whenever I'm faced with really difficult life decisions.
I sit back, let things get really quiet, close my eyes, and I try to see my
futures stretching out in front of me like roads going in different
directions. Each road represents a decision, and stretching out past my
decisions aren't my fantasies but the most realistic outcomes I can
guesstimate for each.

So, I would close my eyes, and I would see a road going off to the left, and
that road goes like this: work full time for job I dislike, work hard on
startup/side project, try to raise family on the weekends ... I am tired, and
I am stressed out, because it's impossible to do all of that without getting
tired and stressed out. Stress puts a strain on my relationship with my
family. Project is completed and launched, and now I try to juggle a full time
job, running a business, and raising a family. My health suffers. My oldest
kid is 5 years old, and the business is still going. It hasn't failed, but it
hasn't been a wild success either. I still pick up consulting jobs here and
there to supplement my income. My kid is 10, and the business is stable now,
but our relationship is a bit distant. I am responsible for two kids and a
wife and a business and I lay awake at night occasionally thinking about that.
There is a small disaster or two -- car accident, economic downturn, a health
issue -- because few people get to go 10 years without a serious challenge in
life. I am able to handle it but it's difficult. My eldest is 15 now, a
rebellious teenager, and s/he knows exactly what to say to punch me in the
heart: what do you care, you're always busy working anyway. The business is
successful, we spend some of the hard-earned money on trips and a few
luxuries.

Off to the right is a road that goes like this: work full time for job I
dislike, swallow my pride and hopes and dreams and put down my project for a
while -- just a while. I practice tolerating the job while actively looking
for a new job and trying to squeeze the occasional raise out of the current
one. A year later, I have a new job. I don't like it much better, but it pays
more. I don't stop looking for new opportunities. I come home and have dinner
with the family and spend time with the wife and kids. I'm not happy or
fulfilled at work, but I can come home and leave the stress at work. I still
poke at my project now and again, I take shortcuts, but I make progress on it
as a hobby. Another year later, another new job, another raise. I take a small
risk and hire a cheap freelancer to finish out a few things on my project.
Somebody else beat me to market and they're doing well but their customer
support forums are full of complaints. I launch my project, still incomplete,
but I don't have to be stressed out about that -- my income doesn't depend on
the success or failure of this project. 5 years later, and I own my own
business, but over the years I've developed a strong habit of spending time
with my family. I have a little bit of savings in the bank and my health isn't
too bad. The business isn't wildly successful, and we've had to give up a few
luxuries, but it pays the rent and does OK.

That's how I'd figure it anyway. Maybe there are other options too. Really try
to envision each scenario. Try to feel like you're living in them. Try to make
them realistic. Don't fall into the trap of assuming that a good idea and a
lot of hard work is enough to guarantee success.

And think of your family as your first startup.

------
chaostheory
You're not actually fixing the problem with 'coping'. You're only putting a
bandaid on it.

> My home town is literally at the bottom end of Australia. Beautiful place
> but there are very few development jobs and no paying startups here. I have
> a child with another on the way. My partners salary is insufficient for us
> to live on.

Solution #1: Move to a bigger metro. You can even find a job before you move.
Your new employer may even pay for relocation costs.

Solution #2: Another solution is to find remote work. Once you get it, start
implementing solution #1.

------
Daneel_
I know both Allianz Insurance and Westpac leverage Mainframe and Java. Perhaps
look at either of those companies? They both have Melbourne offices, so might
be viable? I know Allianz has work-from-home options, so that might be an
avenue if you can't commute, or you're in Tasmania.

And yes, I've hated working at some companies in the past. The best advice I
have is to just to start looking for anything else you can find.. At least
it's a fresh place and a new chance. If you're lucky, a slight pay bump too :)

------
pastProlog
> My home town is literally at the bottom end of Australia. Beautiful place
> but there are very few development jobs and no paying startups here.

You should work to go to events like Startup Grind Melbourne, or at least such
events in Adelaide. Network, approach people and introduce yourself.

> I fear that someone will beat me to market (trying for bare minimum viable
> product).

This shouldn't be a big worry. Even if it happens, move on to the next thing.

> I also fear burn out (has happened before)

Pull back on your startup work if this happens. A job you don't like, new baby
and your own startup you're working on solo and in a rush as someone might
beat you to market sounds like a recipe for burnout. Your startup idea can be
put on the back burner when the other things take precedence. You fear burn
out, so you should spend less time on it. You're not really cutting down time
from it any how, your brain is going 24/7\. I often have programming
breakthroughs after waking up in the morning, or coming home from a dinner. I
guess I'm unconsciously working on the problem even when doing something else.

Maturity might be part of these things. As people get older, that they hear BS
at work becomes less important.

A proper perspective helps as well. You say "the managers are micromanagers
and the developers sit at the bottom of the org chart". This may be true, but
you should look at it with equanimity. Just think logically how to further
your agenda. If it's unfair or illogical that developers sit at the bottom of
the org chart in a software company, getting emotional about it will not serve
you. It is something you have no control of, you can only vote with your feet,
and for now you've voted to stay.

------
jmadsen
A few specific ideas, that I realize will only fill a certain number of hours,
but still very good use of your time:

1) bring a notebook and do planning for your startup - it will get you away
from keyboard & screen all day, there's no such thing as a project that too
well-planned out, and you don't need to worry about doing it on company time
if everyone else is sleeping.

2) as someone mentioned, automate everything you do at work, so you can use
those techniques/what you learned doing it to shorten your 5-6h at night to
something reasonable.

3) no doubt people at work spend a lot of time on social media - so you do it
to, only with a specific goal of networking. That could lead to anything.

Last thing - are you really building an MVP? I'll assume it's a web app of
some type; I have no idea what it is, of course, but 5-6hrs a day is 3/4 full-
time. You should only take a month or so to build and MVP at that rate, so
maybe you haven't pared it down enough?

------
interdrift
I'm a college student and I'm also working as a software engineer.I'm somewhat
close to being as occupied as you are. I'm also working on a side project
while at home. I think the key to managing my life is prioritizing. You have
to get good at prioritizing stuff when you are living a busy life. And the
better you prioritize the better output you get.Also try not to get burn'd out
while you are doing all of the stuff you do and don't forget to go to the gym
and just wreck yourself there(read stay fit). Also try to sleep well. There's
no general formula, just survive and win. About the work : I'm in the opposite
situation where my work requires me to be constantly focused and come up with
solutions, and my tactics are : give it all you got.

------
ryan-allen
My opinion is that you're putting undue stress on yourself with the startup.
Your number one problem is that your 9-5 ain't so good and you need either
another job or another income stream.

Startup income isn't going to happen over night, so I think your efforts are
not worth it given you're already stretched with the 9-5. I would be spending
time on looking for either another job or a remote gig so you can give the 9-5
the flick.

Have you considered moving to Sydney or Melbourne? There are a lot of
development jobs in these cities that pay well for people with experience.

Don't worry about the start up, I think. It's like worrying about wining
second division on the lottery. Only work on it if you find it cathartic. Find
another job, move cities if you need to.

------
iuguy
Firstly, try to keep healthy. The worst thing you could do is to start making
unhealthy choices.

I like the other comments about phoning in your job with no mental effort.
Save your energies for your kids and your side projects.

I have a free 30 day email course on career hacking[1] to promote a book I'm
writing. It could be worth signing up. It's focused on getting a career in
penetration testing but a lot of the stuff in the emails applies to anyone
looking to get a new job or change careers. The pentesty stuff might not be so
relevant but a lot of the emails contain more general tips and advice that
might help you find another job.

[1] - [https://rawhex.com/](https://rawhex.com/)

------
bbcbasic
Hey. Sounds like we have a lot in common - both devs in Australia, looking to
do something entrepreneurial but balancing that with home life. Please get in
touch (see my email address on my profile page).

------
bengali3
Check out Rob Walling (
[http://www.softwarebyrob.com/](http://www.softwarebyrob.com/) ) if you
haven't come across him yet, his book is subtitled- 'A developers guide to
launching a startup' and it was eye opening for me (market first, marketing
second, THEN build actual product). His podcasts called "startups for the rest
of us" have great tips about overcoming and transitioning and I find are very
energizing knowing others have gone through similar.

Every case is different, best of luck!

------
icco
I don't have a family, but I found two things to be really helpful: Going for
a 30 minute walk outside around lunch every day, and having lunch or coffee
with friends who challenge my thinking once a week. These two things let me
reset during the day and lower my frustration at work.

As they say, rest and vest. The goal of this job is to bring in enough money
to support you and your family while you work on your fun thing. You can do
it!

------
Sophistifunk
TBH The best advice I can give is to move closer to Melbourne. I don't care
for it here, but there's not a lot of dev jobs back home in QLD, either.

~~~
aplummer
I moved from QLD for a dev job too and love it here.

And yes, tons of jobs in Melbourne for talented devs, good meetups too.

------
sien
Can you go part time at your main job?

Also, if you're in Hobart there are people around who are doing similar
things. Surely there are lectures at UTas or something. Perhaps a system admin
job at UTas might be a better option as well.

CSIRO robotics have people in Hobart as well. Have a look and see if there is
something there.

Plenty of people work dull jobs to support their family.

------
ryen
Like others have said, use your time to learn new things at work.

And I agree your company likely has no grounds to your IP but what _might_
give them some ground is if you're either caught working on your project at
work or if your performance slips to the point they think you have somehow
used your time for other means.

------
register
Would you consider to partner with somebody on your product development? If
the answer is yes I may be interested. I have a very similar mix of experience
and background and I don't feel challenged at work as well, even if I am not
in such a dramatic situation as you. I am based in Europe.

------
plasma_coil
Meditation. You have to just accept that a lot of corporations work this way.
Meditate and accept it. It is very hard to find the ideal.

Have fun doing what you love and spending time with family when you are
outside of work and you will learn to accept the mediocrity of the world.

------
beenpoor
Have you made sure your current employer won't come after you ? I am curious
myself. I imagine if there's no overlap between your night and day job, you
are okay.

------
jgamman
i doubt this is worth much but i've been in a similar situation and this is
how i dealt with it:

1\. try thinking about your life in 5 yr chunks - a steady paycheck to pay off
my mortgage really fast (secure future) and manageable/flexible work hours to
maximise time building a foundation for life with my little one before she
turns 10 is a wise but dull way to spend a few years. knowing it's worth it,
and why, may help with the grind.

2\. find a minimum $$ number you can live with and then find the smallest
company/association/NFP that will pay this. small companies may not need you
to go deep, but they _love_ people that can go wide. make sure flexibility in
time/location are agreed up front - see 1. Go wide in the weirdest way you can
think of every single time ie, become their economics guru by focusing on the
data visualisation first, not the SQL queries. refuse to use a spreadsheet at
work. write reports in html and distribute as a package. organise an industry
conference and grow it. seriously, you'd be surprised how much lattitude you
can get if you actively pick to work for people that _want/need_ initiative.

3\. understand stakeholders and how they influence the decisions your boss
will make. see 1 and 2. try and frame every proposal as something that is both
interesting to you and as something that will make your boss look good. build
trust. be aware of being taken advantage of but remember 99% of people are
reasonable so don't be too paranoid. creating and launching things is a habit
not something you choose to do on a whim.

4\. don't sweat the small stuff. it's just $$ - enjoy what you can and treat
it as a process. understand where you're going, not where you are.

5\. personal sanity - build or invest in something that can't be (easily)
hacked by software. this is moat between your future business and the leech
competitors. personal relationships are in this category as are delivery
chains or quality>quantity. design and distribute a small range of
programmable toys - partner with your local high school and build the
reputation first etc etc...

6\. look behind you occasionally. if you're not careful, you only look at the
people ahead of you and how much more successful/rich/pretty/talented they are
- considering how much of this is due to dumb luck, this will only make you
depressed. stop occasionally and turn around - there are vast numbers of
people around the world thinking exactly the same @#$@#$ thing about you.

7\. again with the little ones. because it's important and you don't get a do-
over. don't let their childhood memories be 'mum/dad was always busy' \- when
they're 12ish, they will barely want to be in the same room with you anyway
;-)

8\. be with your partner - they're with you for a reason, make sure you don't
just assume that will always be the case.

hope it works out for you.

~~~
trevaa
You make some fantastic points. I do need to spend more time with my family.
The reason I am driving myself so hard at the moment is so I can get out of
the bad job I am in. Bad circle, I know, but thanks so much for taking the
time to write all that out.

------
pm
What city are you in? Sounds like Hobart.

------
colin_mccabe
Well, I generally come in at least fifteen minutes late, ah, I use the side
door - that way Lumbergh can't see me, heh heh - and, uh, after that I just
sorta space out for about an hour...

Yeah, I just stare at my desk; but it looks like I'm working. I do that for
probably another hour after lunch, too. I'd say in a given week I probably
only do about fifteen minutes of real, actual, work.

------
atlantic
Well, something has to give. Pick up your family and move to a more
interesting location.

------
TheSpiceIsLife
Hey, I'm in Launceston, Tasmania. You in Tas too? Email in profile.

------
thejerz
Leave.

------
yanazendo
Quit.

------
tejasv
One word: Zen.

------
benihana
> & I doubt selling remote work (if I can find a reliable income stream) to my
> partner.

I'm confused. You think your partner would stop you from working remotely with
a reliable income stream even though you're miserable in your current job?

