
For Quebec, a French Woman May Not Be French Enough - mykowebhn
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/08/world/canada/quebec-french-woman.html
======
dbieber
The decision has already been overturned:
[https://toronto.citynews.ca/2019/11/09/quebec-overturns-
deci...](https://toronto.citynews.ca/2019/11/09/quebec-overturns-decision-to-
deny-french-woman-immigration-documents-over-language-issue/)

~~~
Waterluvian
Mistakes like this happen all the time. What's truly telling is how fast it
was reversed.

One could argue its only because it got national coverage but I don't think we
know for sure.

Ultimately I don't think it matters unless we start seeing a recurring
pattern.

~~~
cmer
There already is a recurring pattern. Not exactly like this situation, but a
pattern of discriminating against anything that is not French. It's getting
completely out of hands. Soon, "non historic anglos" (ie immigrants) won't be
allowed to get their hydro bill, correspondence from the government or _any_
service in English.

We moved out of Quebec mostly for the politics 5 years ago and I'm so glad I
did. We're never going back.

~~~
umanwizard
I think it's perfectly normal for people in a small enclave nestled in the
heart of the giant Anglo-saxon hegemon to feel insecure about the long-term
survival of their unique language and culture and want to take extra steps to
preserve it. I'm completely sympathetic with them refusing to provide services
in a foreign language when that language is a serious threat to their
existence as a cultural group.

Look what happened to French in Louisiana, or Irish in Ireland, or Native
American languages across the continent. Quebecers don't want that to happen
to them, and I can't blame them.

By the way, always remember that Quebecers never chose to become part of
Canada or any English-speaking society; they were conquered by military force.

~~~
throwpupper
In Quebec City they are loudly proud of how many Anglos they have driven away.
They pretty much purged the city of anything non-French in the two last
decades and are displaying it as a success story.

For me, displacing large communities based on their mother tongue is nothing
to be proud of. Be it either way.

~~~
umanwizard
Citation needed? I'll concede that I haven't lived there so I could be wrong,
but I've been to Quebec city twice, including once with people who spoke no
French at all, and never felt any hostility. Again, I'm not disputing that it
could be different for the local Anglo minority, but I'd need to see some
sources before I believe that you're not exaggerating.

~~~
moltar
There’s a difference between a tourist and a local. As a tourist you bring
dollars. But try getting any government service in English and you’ll get eye
rolls and rude behaviour. Even cops in Montreal will not speak English
generally.

~~~
umanwizard
How many governments around the world provide services in a foreign language?

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jefft255
I find this extremely embarrassing. I'm all for the protection of French in
Quebec; but stupid decisions like this makes us look bad internationally and
make no sense at all. I went to Laval University too, and guess what: my whole
thesis, not just one chapter, was in English. Yet, I didn't speak English
until I was 18. Am I not French enough for Quebec?

I hope the employee who made this call will get in trouble. English is the
language of science at the international level; mandating theses to be written
in French (universities don't actually mandate this, but immigrants could now
be scared to write it in English) will limit the reach of Quebec's science.

~~~
jkaplowitz
I don't support the original decision either, but the blame does not belong on
the immigration officer for following an unreasonably strictly worded rule
requiring studies to be "entirely" in French.

Yes, most officers don't read this particular rule literally, but immigration
rules in general do and should apply literally instead of assuming that
officers will always violate what the rule says in favor of contradictory
judgment calls.

The fix should include replacing "entirely" with whatever they actually mean
in the rules for the program. Most similar eligibility criteria in other
contexts use phrases like "main language of instruction", some variation of
which would work fine.

------
floki999
Quebec language rules and the minions that enforce them can be quite pathetic.
Just a couple of months ago, the debate be was about the right of shop-keepers
being able to greet their customers in both English and French, or only in
French. Totally ridiculous.

I am also a native French speaker from Europe, and left Montreal because of
the backward mentality. I totally respect Quebec’s need to protect their
heritage, but you can’t force it down people’s throats. It is counter-
productive. It wouldn’t be so funny, if Quebec French wasn’t so hilarious to
listen to... they took perfectly good French and turned it into something that
is often unrecognizable.

~~~
jefft255
Why would _you_ get to decide which French is the _good_ French? Formal
register Quebec French is totally fine. Of course, on the street you can hear
pretty deformed French, but guess what: in France too. That's just how
language registers work.

~~~
floki999
I’m actually from Belgium, which is in a very similar situation as Quebec: (a)
heavy accent which the French love to make fun of and (b) where language wars
have been raging forever and taken to ridiculous levels. This mentality of
wanting to keep a culture ‘pure’ by trying to control how and where language
is used, is a losing battle. Some Quebecers, just like purist francophone
Belgians have taken this language obsession to irrational levels, and it has
knock-on effects in other aspects of daily-life. I wish Quebecers would just
lighten-up about it..

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BrandoElFollito
I am French, in love with my language which I find to be the most beautiful in
the whole universe.

I wrote my PhD thesis entirely in English because this is THE language we
communicate in internationally. Sure I world prefer it to be French but it is
not.

People who do not see that are still fighting for everything to be in French,
in French companies working internationally. The idea is that we are in France
and French should not be forced to speak another language in their own
country. Yet they choose to work in an international company.

I like the rational approach in Nordic countries who teach English early (we
do as well) and do not believe that striking will miraculously make the whole
world pamper us.

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samtrack2019
As a French (from Paris ) I have hard time understanding there French and I
rather understand when they speak English , but I don’t ask them to switch to
English because I know that would drive them mad if I do

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908B64B197
Throwaway; Response posted in case someone Google this and find this thread
(Happy to see this is off the front page as this type of content doesn't
belong on HN).

What's interesting with this story is to see the different media coverage it
received in French and English media. The French ones gave a little more
context into why her application was initially denied. Basically she didn't
fill the application properly.

I've known multiple people who used the exact same program as her to
immigrate. There is no language requirement for courses or thesis. However,
having followed all courses in French and written a full thesis in French
removes the requirement to pass a standardized French test (think TOEFL).
According to the CBC article in French[1] she was warned when she started
writing it that unless she translated the chapters written in English she
would potentially have to pass the Standardized French test as it wouldn't be
adequate to waive the requirement for a test. She ignored this warning and
decided to submit her application anyways.

Later, as warned by the university officials, she received a request for
evidence. She either had to pass a Standardized test OR demonstrate three
years of high school level education in French (from the folks that I know who
went through this, a simple copy of a French high school transcript is good
enough).

She had two months to give a response but apparently waited 4 months (it's not
completely obvious from the article and completely omitted from the English
CBC news one [2]) to respond.

The ultimate reason why she was denied is never explicitly stated. It seems
that she switched jobs while her application was pending and became a
freelance illustrator. The immigration program she applied for specifically
prohibits self-employment. Either that or she sent the required evidence too
late and they closed her file.

tl;dr : Her paperwork was incomplete. She was warned several times and ignored
a request for evidence for several months & switched to a job specifically not
covered by the immigration program she was applying to.

Case closed. [1] [https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/1378665/immigration-
que...](https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/1378665/immigration-quebec-
francaise-refusee-chapitre-doctorat-anglais-universite-laval) [2]
[https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/french-thesis-
immigr...](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/french-thesis-immigration-
caq-1.5351155)

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smdz
I wonder if anyone had a similar experience with English proficiency test

