
The Persian Rug May Not Be Long for This World - aaronbrethorst
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/27/world/middleeast/end-of-an-art-form-the-persian-rug-may-not-be-long-for-this-world.html
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bane
We have a huge (10'x13') Antique Wool Persian Rug made in Kashan before the
revolution. Not quite sure how old it is, but the dealer claimed it was likely
first imported in the 1930s. We also have several cheaper machine-made
Persian-style rugs from a few different places.

The real one is the centerpiece of our entire house, and a treasure. It
definitely has a quality and beauty that the machine-made ones don't possess.
They're one-of-a-kind works of art. At some point it was repaired and there's
a little difference in the dye colors where the patching was performed.
Knowing it has some history really adds to the feeling of value. It's an
antique you can walk and lay down on. If our home caught fire, I would
probably grab my computer and that rug and leave the rest to burn.

It completely transformed the room we put it in and brought it grace and
character. The machine-made rugs we put furniture on top of and are already
starting to fall apart in places, even the nicer one we paid lots of money for
before we got smart.

If you're patient and look around, you kind find them at fairly steep
discounts, and now that the market is opening up, I expect the prices to drop
even more. Our rug was appraised at something north of $15k, but we bought it
for less than $2k. Quick checks on the internet show me similar rugs for
around $6.5k. (here's one that looks superficially like ours
[http://esalerugs.com/red-palace-rugs-kashan-persian-
rug-2219...](http://esalerugs.com/red-palace-rugs-kashan-persian-
rug-22199335#))

When we decided to get a rug, we went through lots of research and shopping,
finally decided on a Persian-style rug and hit rug markets and dealers all
over our area. For us at least, the color schemes of the made-in-Iran rugs
(over the often cheaper Pakistan, Turkish or Afghan handmade rugs) really was
unmatched in hitting our taste.

Sorry if this sounds like a commercial, but these really are special objects.
It's a shame that there's so many middle-men in-between the weavers and the
buyers, I'd much rather have paid the weavers directly, but stupid global
politics get in the way. I'm very excited for the slowly thawing relations
with Iran, there's so many really wonderful cultural things I'm hoping come
exploding out of that country.

~~~
nikanj
This might be just my perception, but persian rugs always seem to be on a
great sale. Special price, only for you, my special friend etc. I have a big
aversion to buying a rug, because the whole process feels like I'm being
swindled.

~~~
bradleyjg
I think that's a culture clash. Persian culture is very big on bargaining. My
father was an immigration lawyer and he told me that if he had a Persian
client he would have to increase the price and allow himself to be bargained
down to the normal price.

I'm with you, I prefer not to bargain but I don't think it's fair to equate
bargaining cultures to swindlers.

~~~
metaphorm
I wonder if this inverse effect happens. Suppose someone from a bargaining
culture is forced to deal with someone from a retail culture. Do they feel
like they're being ripped off because they weren't given a chance to ask for a
lower price?

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the_rosentotter
Nothing tells me U.S. official policy towards Iran is changing more than
subtly favorable articles like this appearing in the New York Times.

~~~
metaphorm
they ran this piece on the same they ran an editorial denouncing the
government of Saudi Arabia for exporting Wahabism. this is not subtle stuff.

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sk5t
Certainly a tangent, but can anyone share tips on where/how to pick up
traditional wool rugs without getting taken for a ride? I get the distinct
impression most vendors are buying way low and angling to sell way high...

~~~
geff82
Just as a note to you: when I drive through Teheran, there are often rugs in
the middle of the road so cars drive over them. This is how they are made
"old" and sell for many, many, dollars.

~~~
cr1895
I'm not doubting you, but wouldn't the tire/brake residue, oil drips, etc.
render something less "old" but more "roadside trash?"

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eating_ice
There are several reasons for the dying popularity of Persian carpets

1.Changes in tastes: beautiful though they are, they do not go with much of
what passes for modern decor

2.The availability of substitutes: many other alternatives are available,
including Finnish, Swedish, Danish,German, Indian, Pakistan, Afghanistan and
Chinese carpets.

3.Concerns about authenticity. Was that "Persian carpet" made in Iran or in
Turkey or in China ?

4\. Transaction costs: carpet dealers in local shopping malls vary from dodgy
to very dodgy. Some of them have had "going out of business sale" signs up for
years. I know that they will try and rip me off. I do not want to waste time
bargaining with them and trying to spot the genuine items in their stock.As
for learning about knot-per-inch and all the terminology that goes with it,
heck it is just something to put on my floor.

5\. Here is a typical ad: "Retail Price: $7836 Online Discount Price: $3134
Price After Extra 50% Off: $1567"

What is a fair price for this ? 1567 ? 567 ? 67 ? What does this even mean ?
Sure sounds dodgy.

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driverdan
How much would their $400 6x9 rug cost in the US after markups?

I'd love to have a few nice rugs but that price seems very low. I'm curious at
what volume does it make sense to go there, buy, and ship back rather than
buying ones that have already been imported.

~~~
bane
It depends mostly on knot count and condition. Higher knots per inch, the
higher the price. Silk (instead of wool) makes the price 3-4x higher.

A fairly low knot count (about 100 kpi) Shiraz rug of about that size would
run somewhere between $1300-$5000 most likely. If you hunt around I would
expect a "great deal" to be ~$1000.

Here's an example of a Shiraz-style rug with 140kpi.
[http://esalerugs.com/red-5x8-shiraz-lori-persian-
rug-1109053...](http://esalerugs.com/red-5x8-shiraz-lori-persian-
rug-110905317)

Once you get into higher knot counts (300+ kpi) the price increases very
quickly as well. But I personally think it's important to see what that knot
count difference looks like in person. There's a very big perceptual jump in
quality and it's almost like going from 8-bit graphics to modern 4k in terms
of how the design looks.

An example:

Here's a 150kpi Kashan rug $3300 [http://esalerugs.com/red-10x13-kashan-
persian-rug-110909188](http://esalerugs.com/red-10x13-kashan-persian-
rug-110909188)

and a 400kpi Kashan rug of similar design $13000
[http://esalerugs.com/red-10x13-kashan-persian-
rug-110906616](http://esalerugs.com/red-10x13-kashan-persian-rug-110906616)

It's very hard to tell across the web, but 400kpi compared to 150kpi is night
and day.

I've seen high knot count silk rugs that were easily in the six figures.

------
DonHopkins
I had a Persian rug mouse pad that I really enjoyed and got a lot of nice
complements on. Just a dye-sublimation printed imitation, but it still looked
and felt luxurious. I wonder if anyone makes real Persian mini-rugs that size,
for doll houses perhaps?

~~~
avree
[http://www.amazon.com/Lextra®-MouseRug®-blues-
white-10-25/dp...](http://www.amazon.com/Lextra®-MouseRug®-blues-
white-10-25/dp/B000F6H0F2)

Was it this?

~~~
DonHopkins
That looks like it!

I wrote a cellular automata that you can start with a symmetrical
configuration, that I called a "Persian Rug Enumerator" because each frame
looked like different Persian Rug! You could make a lot of unique mouse pads
that way.

[https://youtu.be/nQQBmkmmCw4?t=4m55s](https://youtu.be/nQQBmkmmCw4?t=4m55s)

------
danieltillett
I feel conflicted about "Persian" rugs. So much child labor goes into making
them that by buying one you are helping support a dispicable trade in human
misery. At the same time they can be highly beautiful and practical. I have
decided to take the same approach as with Ivory - old ivory is fine, but new
Ivory is not. I have a few antique rugs that I really love, but I would not
buy a new one.

~~~
sandworm101
But unlike ivory, that cannot be made without dead elephants, it possible to
create a Persian carpet without child labour. Children used to mine coal, but
we still have coal. So we can still have Persian carpets.

I used to live in the middle east and when I left I brought a medium-sized
pile of them. They are great and very utilitarian. The one in my living room
is nearly a hundred years old and has seen many generations of dogs, cats and
in all probability goats. They can be cleaned an repaired in a way rare for
modern products.

~~~
danieltillett
Sure, but it is really hard to ensure this as a consumer. Most rugs don't come
with a label "made with slave labor". By only buying old you get to avoid
supporting continued abuses while still having an item of beauty and
practicality.

~~~
the_rosentotter
A lot of the stuff you use every day is made with what is practically slave
labor, often child labor too. Not that it makes it any better, but there is no
reason to single out rugs.

------
intrasight
I do love beautiful, high quality Persian Rugs. But, alas, the wool makes me
sneeze.

~~~
danieltillett
They do make silk rugs, but it feels like a crime to walk on them.

~~~
intrasight
Funny you mention that. We purchased a beautiful silk rug. Have it hanging on
a wall.

