
Ask HN: Is there a way we can prevent down-voting for disagreements? - wuliwong
My biggest gripe with HN is that it appears to me that comments are often down-voted over differing opinions rather than an issue with the comment as per the HN guidelines[0]. As someone who has unpopular opinions, this often leaves me fearful of participating in discussions. Maybe this fear effect is the very thing keeping our community more cordial though? :)<p>I like HN a lot and it really is the only site where I regularly read comments. Keeping that in mind, I wonder if anyone has any ideas as to how we might improve this aspect of the community without also ruining it in the process? It is quite possible that any solution will wind up with worse adverse affects than benefits.<p>One small idea I had was to add a section on &quot;When Voting&quot; to the HN guidelines[0]. I may have missed it but I do not believe there is anything pertaining to what one should be considering when voting.<p>[0] https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;newsguidelines.html
======
zaro
Well I too get down votes very often. And basically if I comment something on
HN I count it as success if my karma doesn't go down after I comment.

Because of this I tend to see HN as this club of extremely narrow minded
people where any opinion that differs is punished. But this is mostly citral
thing. First by the fact that I am not a English speaker and second that even
if most people won't admit it they have very binary thinking. To which the up
vote / down vote buttons fit perfectly :)

So if you want your not so mainstream opinion to be appreciated I think HN is
very poor place for this.

~~~
mankash666
I agree - HN is an echo chamber. A few patterns: 1\. Generally left leaning
politically 2\. HN prefers SQL db to MongoDB, despite Mongo's suitability to
certain use cases 3\. GPL == Holy. Somehow all software should be given away
with the most copyleft license one can apply. Yet, the GPL hardliners gather
in droves here - a website that isn't open source, run by a VC company whose
mission is to make money, mostly off software. Ironic

~~~
neverminder
Don't forget the PC Police - if you want to say something even remotely not
politically correct better keep it to yourself, or you'll be downvoted to
oblivion.

~~~
iovrthoughtthis
Isn't PC just code for offensive?

Can you give me an example of something you consider not PC that isn't also
offensive?

~~~
shortoncash
This was an interesting challenge. Here's my attempt: "Merry Christmas."

The more PC term is "Happy Holidays", but I'm not so sure "Merry Christmas" is
offensive contextually -- at least, not always.

~~~
KajMagnus
I think this does not answer the question. I don't think "Merry Christmas" or
"Holidays" is the type of example @iovrthoughtthis is looking for.

~~~
iovrthoughtthis
I'm also not sure those are the type of "PC" that was meant initially.

Though I could be wrong. Does HN get up in arms when people say Merry
Christmas?

------
curtis
I've long wondered if it would make sense to have a separate agree/disagree
vote for each comment separate from the comment's normal upvote/downvote
count. The totals for agree and disagree would be shown on the comment, but
would not otherwise be used. I'd probably go one step further and allow users
to simultaneously agree and disagree with a comment.

So you get something like:

    
    
      [upvote] [downvote] [agree] [disagree]
    
      2 points 7 agree 4 disagree (2 both agree and disagree)
    

The idea is to separate comment quality from agreement/disagreement.

I'm not sure this would be a good fit for HN since we can't generally see
comment scores anyway, but it might work for other sites like Reddit.

~~~
AtteLynx
A local news site has such a system in their comment section. Judging by the
scores, most people just end up using both for agree/disagree.

~~~
KajMagnus
Yes too I think "Upvote" and "Agree" are too similar.

Actually I've implemented a 4 votes discussion system:

\- _Like_ = I agree / useful / insightful

\- _Disagree_ — does _not_ affect post sort order or karma

\- _Bury_ — for moving well-intended but boring comments, like "Thanks!" and
"Me too", downwards. Without having to delete or actually downvote them.

\- _Unwanted_ — this corresponds to HN's downvote. Core members & staff can
use it, if they don't want that type of comment, at the site. Reduces the
commenter's karma, moves the post downwards.

Here are two demo pages: (scroll up a bit to see the "Some disagree with this"
warning)

\-
[https://beautiful.demo.ed.community/-6#post-14](https://beautiful.demo.ed.community/-6#post-14)
\-
[https://insightful.demo.ed.community/-7#post-3](https://insightful.demo.ed.community/-7#post-3)

------
esturk
I feel that down voting without any currency is too cheap. Instead, if people
have to use up 1 karma to downvote then people would be more considerate about
down voting. This would also restrict people who are just negative in general
that likes to downvote everything. People who has looks of karma is free to
downvote however they like.

~~~
wutbrodo
It's an interesting idea, but it would systemically tendency towards ossifying
views that the community already holds/has held in the past. If those who hold
a certain opinion already have more karma, a feedback loop is created whereby
they're more free to downvote the opposing opinion, the other side is less
able to downvote theirs, so the original group doesn't lose as much karma, etc
etc.

------
muzani
I don't like it because I think HN/YC should be a place to voice unpopular
opinions.

I think it's fine to downvote an opinion you don't like. The whole purpose of
upvote/downvote would be more to 'bump' opinions you think is useful. I
sometimes upvote an opinion I disagree with if I think it should be more
visible. But I think most people just use it as a boo/cheer button.

------
tabeth
Downvoting in general is a pretty poor tool. What exactly would be lost if you
could not downvote? Upvote or flag it if it's blatantly wrong; better yet,
respond with the correct info.

The main problem with down and up voting is that it's "apparent" which results
in people just doing it to further support an already up/downvoted item. This
results in not actually attempting to understand, imo.

------
Someone1234
Don't. Embrace it...

Let me ask and then answer a question: Why do you CARE that something was
downvoted? Because when things are downvoted you lose privileges, comments are
hidden/greyed, and you can even be shadow-banned. So downvoting or
"disagreement" is problematic because it is PUNISHED. Reddit has an identical
issue.

That's a problem with the site's design. People aren't going to stop using the
downvote as a disagreement button but yet the site is designed around the
concept that it is a moderation tool? That's completely irrational, and only
results in group-think.

So what's the solution? Well you can hope that people change and start using
the site as you intended, or you can design the site around people as they are
rather than as you'd like them to be.

Three buttons:

\- I agree

\- I disagree

\- I believe this is inappropriate/rule breaking/low quality/flag it

Neither the first nor second are moderation actions. They're opinions and will
be displayed as such e.g. (+10/-100) for a controversial opinion, and
(+100/-10) for a popular one.

With the third option, you have to mitigate abuse. It is not a "super
downvote" or a "super disagree." If someone uses it:

\- They can either vote OR flag

\- They can either reply OR flag

\- The flag has a cooldown

\- You abuse the flag you lose the flag

As soon as they flag a post that post is dead to them, they cannot interact
with it. This stops them from using it in their own little vendetta, and
frankly I believe people would prefer to add to the public disagreement score
(or reply) than to abuse the private flag function.

~~~
KajMagnus
I've implemented something like this, in another discussion system. I added a
comment about that, here on this page:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15798037](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15798037)

I have 4 vote buttons: (a Bury vote, in addition to the ones you mentioned)

\- _Like_ = I agree / useful / insightful

\- _Disagree_ — does _not_ affect post sort order or karma

\- _Bury_ — for moving "Thanks!" and "Me too" comments downwards, without
having to delete or downvote them)

\- _Unwanted_ — if you don't want that type of comment, at the site. Reduces
the commenter's karma, moves the post downwards. This is the only vote HN has
right now.

Two demo pages: (scroll up a bit to see the "Some disagree with this" warning)

\-
[https://beautiful.demo.ed.community/-6#post-14](https://beautiful.demo.ed.community/-6#post-14)
\-
[https://insightful.demo.ed.community/-7#post-3](https://insightful.demo.ed.community/-7#post-3)

------
lgas
Paul Graham seems to think downvoting as disagreement is fine:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171)

~~~
DanBC
He also thought it was a problem:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1057338](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1057338)

I used to agree with the comment you linked, and this other one:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=658683](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=658683)

But then people pointed out a bunch of comments that got downvotes. These were
polite comments, making a coherent point, on-topic and not attacking others.

And there are a couple of accounts who appear to have most of their comments
insta-downvoted, even if there's nothing wrong with them.

One solution: almost all logged-in accounts have the ability to upvote. Few
accounts have the ability to downvote. So if anyone sees a downvoted comment
they can supply a corrective upvote.

------
KajMagnus
What about adding a "Disagree" button? And show the text _" Some disagree with
this"_, if some people disagree. Or _" Many disagree"_, if many disagree. —
So, there'd be two kind of downvotes. One for "disagree", and another for "I
don't want this kind of comment here at HN" (currently HN in practice only has
the last one).

Look, a demo of how this can work and look:
[https://insightful.demo.ed.community/-7#post-3](https://insightful.demo.ed.community/-7#post-3)

— scroll up just a little bit to see the "Some disagree with this" warning
just above the comment. And if, _below_ the comment, you click the `V` button,
to show various types of votes (in addition to the Like vote), you'll see
there's a Disagree vote.

------
nkurz
_I wonder if anyone has any ideas as to how we might improve this aspect of
the community without also ruining it in the process?_

In general, I'd like to see voting and flagging on HN become more transparent.
While there are some good arguments for maintaining the current "anonymous"
approach, I testing some alternatives could lead to something better.

One quick change that I'd like to see would be to privatly expose the total
vote count to the poster instead of just the net total. As it is, it's hard to
distinguish a contentious issue from one that only a small number of people
are interested in.

For example, instead of showing a comment as "-2", it might show "-2" with a
mouseover that shows "+20 -18 = 2". This would be a tiny change, the data is
already being recorded, and it could just as easily be rolled back if it
doesn't produce a desired effect.

~~~
CodeWriter23
They do that on ArsTechnica. It doesn't really seem to have mitigated the
issue much.

What I do, if I see a greyish comment on HN, and it's obvious that the
opinion/idea expressed is being downvoted by groupthink, I upvote it. Even if
I don't agree with the comment. Mostly because I don't believe
ignoring/burying those whom you disagree with as solving anything. My choice
of doing this is more of a means than an end. It's odd how narrow-minded and
self-reinforcing a group of out-of-the-box free thinkers can be, especially
out here. I can't impose open-mindedness on the masses, but I can try to at
least help the voices of the dissenters remain visible.

------
DanBC
One thing not mentioned so far: most people have the ability to upvote. Fewer
people have the ability to downvote.

When you see a downvoted comment it's not only had downvotes, it's failed to
attract upvotes.

If people upvoted more unfair downvotes would be less of a problem.

------
rhapsodic
I think if the amount of downvotes someone could cast in a given 24 hour
period were limited to some smallish number, perhaps 5 or 10, then some people
might save their downvotes for the comments that that really detract from the
tone of the discussion.

------
aaronbrethorst
I recommend not caring.

------
miguelrochefort
I up-vote everything I think people should see (often controversial/unpopular
opinions I agree with), and down-vote everything else (giving my up-votes more
weight).

I would like the ability to invest in comments I find particularly important
(i.e., spend 100 karma), and reap the benefits if it ends up being useful to
those who would otherwise not have seen it.

------
shortoncash
I've often felt web sites need an inverse mode. On some sites, I prefer all
the negative comments to the upvoted comments.

------
krapp
PG said downvoting for disagreement was fine. Like it or not, that's the way
the community runs and the way culture is - optimized for quality and cultural
reinforcement, not freedom of speech.

Most of the time petty downvotes get balanced out or just sit at -1 anyway, it
doesn't matter.

~~~
wuliwong
Could you post a link to where he said that?

~~~
krapp
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171)

~~~
wuliwong
Thanks. This must have taken you a little work to dig up again.

------
rhlala
I always upvote the interesting things, sometimes i strongly disagree with,
but it bring an good reflexion, or simply another point of view.

I am surprised some people upvote comments just because they agree, should go
facebook if you want that kind of social media.

------
tmaly
What if everyone could see who down voted each comment. Make things super
transparent.

------
robinduckett
Don't have a downvote button. They tried it before.

------
GoToRO
Implement 'I agree' / 'I disagree' and 'New information' buttons.

Hellban people that hellbanned without reason other people.

------
justin_vanw
There is remarkably low value to be extracted from hn comments. Very rarely
there is something wonderful! But like 99/100 comments are some combination of
showing off, punching down, pushing a crackpot agenda or cryptotrolling. Why
do you care if you get downvoted in such an environment? Perhaps, and this
isn't meant to be nasty at all, you need some social activities in your life?

~~~
danso
If you care to share, I’d be interested in examples of the 1/100-tier comments
that you’ve seen. I have a more positive view of the discussions here, of
course maybe my standards are lower. But I don’t think a comment necessarily
becomes lesser because the author is “showing off”. If what they’re talking
about is really damn special, maybe the bragging can’t be helped

