
The Great Recycling Con [video] - pseudolus
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/09/opinion/recycling-myths.html
======
nathancahill
This 100x over. I had a very eye-opening experience as an american living in
Mexico for 2 years, while trying to recycle as much as possible. I learned a
lot and continue to think about recycling in this context, since it applies
globally. Once you're out from under the umbrella of "The Great Recycling
Con":

\- Recycling companies in Mexico will not accept any material that they can't
make a profit on. Only a few numbers of plastic are recyclable/profitable.

\- Recycling companies in Mexico enforce sorting and cleanliness before
receiving any material. I clean everything, even run it in the dishwasher if
there's space. Pizza cardboard is straight out.

\- Glass is the hardest the recycle. There's a global glut of used glass. This
goes against the normal idea that it's the easiest to recycle because it can
be simply melted down. On the other hand, some beverage companies wash and
reuse returned bottles. Those are the only bottled beverages I buy now. Buy a
case, pay a small deposit, then continuously swap it for full bottles.

\- Aluminum is the easiest to recycle and the most profitable. I've switched
to buying as much as possible in cans. Especially switching from drinking beer
out of bottles because it "tastes better" to buying it in cans and pouring it
in a glass.

\- Clean cardboard (and paper to a lesser extent) is fairly easy to recycle.

\- Companies pay you a small amount for material. It's not a lot but it covers
the cost of dropping it off.

These basic economic rules apply in the United States too but it's masked by
the con described in this op-ed, temporary recycling subsidies and "wish-
cycling" [0]

[0] [https://recyclecoach.com/residents/blog/help-put-a-stop-
to-w...](https://recyclecoach.com/residents/blog/help-put-a-stop-to-wish-
cycling/)

~~~
hajile
Fresh water is a rather precious commodity and running a dishwasher just to
dispose of stuff uses even more power (even the soaps used are generally not
particularly friendly for the environment). A better idea is a 5-gallon bucket
of rainwater and an old bottle brush. Recyclables need only have the large
dirt removed rather than being germ-free like a dishwasher is designed for.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
>running a dishwasher just to dispose of stuff uses even more power

A dishwasher is more efficient than hand washing under normal circumstances
(not an ancient dishwasher, not pre-washing dishes, more than one plate to
wash, etc).[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8]

Edit: added citations and removed "IIRC"

[1] [https://www.pcrichard.com/library/blogArticle/why-
dishwasher...](https://www.pcrichard.com/library/blogArticle/why-dishwashers-
are-better-than-hand-washing/1101150.pcra)

[2] [https://www.reviewed.com/dishwashers/features/please-stop-
ha...](https://www.reviewed.com/dishwashers/features/please-stop-hand-washing-
your-dishes)

[3] [https://www.treehugger.com/kitchen-design/built-in-
dishwashe...](https://www.treehugger.com/kitchen-design/built-in-dishwashers-
vs-hand-washing-which-is-greener.html)

[4][https://www.realsimple.com/home-organizing/cleaning/more-
tec...](https://www.realsimple.com/home-organizing/cleaning/more-
techniques/dishwasher-vs-hand-washing)

[5] [https://www.cnet.com/how-to/how-much-water-do-dishwashers-
us...](https://www.cnet.com/how-to/how-much-water-do-dishwashers-use/)

[6]
[https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2017/11/24/564055953/to...](https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2017/11/24/564055953/to-
save-water-should-you-wash-your-hands-of-hand-washing-dishes)

[7] [https://www.huffpost.com/entry/wash-
dishes_n_7232216?guccoun...](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/wash-
dishes_n_7232216?guccounter=1)

[8]
[https://www.energystar.gov/products/appliances/dishwashers/d...](https://www.energystar.gov/products/appliances/dishwashers/dishwasher_hand_washing)

~~~
Dirlewanger
Yeah it is..if you're hand washing with the tap on full blast.

~~~
smileysteve
A dishwasher in the normal cycle uses about as much water as an efficient
person uses in washing a single large pot without the tap running (reusing
this water for washing all dishes is the most efficient way to hand wash)

In addition, a dishwasher has high pressure pumps, a centrifugal grinder, and
its own water heater (to heat hotter and more localized than a central water
heater, above sanitizing levels)

~~~
hajile
The assumptions here are wrong because they are based on creating sanitary
dishes suitable for human foodstuffs. Recyclables don't need to be sanitary --
just free of large amounts of dirt.

* You don't need rinse water, so the total water needed is at least halved. Since the water is just sitting in a bucket, you can do many, many washings with the same water which increases that efficiency even more.

* You don't need heated water as sanitation and complete cleanliness is unimportant. Heating the water alone uses more energy than everything else put together.

* You don't need particularly clean water, just clean enough to prevent large dirt from adhering. As such you could use floor-cleaning chemicals that clump the dirt and precipitate it to the bottom increasing use time. Reusing water and the chemicals in that water for longer has a very large impact on the environment.

* a couple strokes with a bottle brush take way less energy than a high-pressure pump and once again, get the item clean enough.

* Fewer things going through your dishwasher increases its lifespan and decreases the total cost of operation. This is also better for the environment

------
gioele
> The recycling of everything else is mostly a combination of virtue signaling
> and a jobs program.

The truthiness of this statement depends a lot on the region of the world you
are looking at.

In Europe there is a consolidated and expanding recycling market for many
different types of materials. For example more that 30% in eight of the
plastics sent to recycle in EU actually ends up being recycled [1]. (It would
be closer to ~40% if it weren't for France.) These are big numbers that are
having a meaningful impact on the amount of CO2 produced, not just "jobs
programs".

BTW, a decade ago I met the owner of a factory that used only post-consumer
plastic and he stated that his business was limited by the lack of good post-
consumer plastics: the biggest share of the best kinds of plastics are being
bought, at an higher price, by incinerators operators, leaving his factory and
others to deal with second-rate plastic.

[1]
[https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/society/201...](https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/society/20181212STO21610/plastic-
waste-and-recycling-in-the-eu-facts-and-figures)

~~~
Ayesh
I love the pfand system we have in the Netherlands and Germany. I read that
about 90% of the bottles and containers are returned because there is an
immediate financial incentive to do so.

In Asia, plastic bags are given for free, and I'm sure charging a few cents
would have made a massive difference. Uber Eats, GoFood, and Grab Food all
have made some changes so you can mark if you do not want the plastic cutlery.
There is a company in India, Zomato, that even sends recyclable bags along the
food. All of these changes should be appreciated by both media and consumers.

Recycling would never solve the problem alone. It's an illusion of a solution.
Using less and less plastic and more alternative material would.

~~~
mc32
What important is that the materials get recycled not that they get returned.
Returning only addresses the eyesore of discarded packaging not environmental
concerns.

~~~
lm28469
It's even better than recycled, most bottle are simply cleaned and reused as
is. You can tell because the side of beer bottles in germany are scratched on
the top/bottom where they contact the other bottles during transport:
[https://images.squarespace-
cdn.com/content/55df3cede4b0daf4d...](https://images.squarespace-
cdn.com/content/55df3cede4b0daf4de890e11/1459991601417-AM05QF8H45VCRCFOUWO7/Reused+glass+bottle?format=750w&content-
type=image%2Fjpeg)

~~~
Yetanfou
Glass bottles get reused, plastic gets recycled. The first PET bottles were
made to be reused as well, they were quite a bit more substantial than the
current versions. This scheme was scrapped quite soon, probably because it
ended up being more expensive to clean these plastic bottles and discard the
ones which for some reason were not usable any more. This led to the
development of the current one-time-use thin-walled PET bottle.

As to whether those wear marks on glass beer bottles are from them touching
together during transport I'd suggest that this actually is not the case. They
shouldn't come into contact with another, seeing as they are transported in
crates with pockets for individual bottles. It is far more likely that those
marks come from handling in the bottle washing-, filling- and labelling
machines where the bottles gang and rub against each other. If you're from
Germany you might have watched 'die Sendung mit der Maus' ('the program with
the mouse', a long-running television program aimed at children which amongst
others details all sorts of industrial processes) where this process is
followed from start to finish. Here's an example from the '70s:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7Bd6YWrfWw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7Bd6YWrfWw)

~~~
lm28469
> This led to the development of the current one-time-use thin-walled PET
> bottle.

I'm drinking from thick reusable/reused plastic bottle everyday here in
Berlin, even coke is sold in them, they still exists

> it ended up being more expensive to clean these plastic bottles

Which is a shame because what we save in $s now will cost us much more than $s
in the future.

> It is far more likely that those marks come from handling in the bottle
> washing-, filling- and labelling machines where the bottles gang and rub
> against each other.

Could be, either way it's a sign they are indeed reused. Thanks for the link.

------
noxer
PENN & TELLER: BULLSHIT S02 E05 Recycling It's from 2004 and basically nothing
has changed

Enjoy
[https://www.bitchute.com/video/j0Hd6UfA4MKo/](https://www.bitchute.com/video/j0Hd6UfA4MKo/)

~~~
cellularmitosis
I was about to say "p & t covered this 10 years ago" but it turns out that was
already 15 years ago!

------
fmajid
On the other hand aluminum recycles very well, and it is economically viable
to recycle, unlike almost every other material. It's estimated 75% of the
aluminum ever produced is still in circulation, thanks to recycling.

The solution is clear: use aluminum instead of plastic for packaging. Possibly
cardboard.

------
ghhutch
Wish there were better ways to recycle. I find myself using re-usable
glass/plastic containers for storing food instead of single-use ziplock bags.
I like to see companies ditching plastic straws, lids, and cups. The other day
I was in a tea shop in Columbus OH and the store gave me a plastic cup with a
paper straw. It's like they gave effort but didn't really think the whole
thing through since they still gave me plastic in the form of a cup..... I
suppose its progress... meh.

~~~
javagram
The straw stuff is supposed to be about the size of the straw and their
propensity to get into the environment and hurt animals. Cups don’t have the
same effect.

(That said, my understanding is the straw research is based on a 5th grade
science project and most of the straws that reach the environment are from
third world countries that don’t have good landfills or waste disposal
systems...)

------
Nasrudith
There is one form of "recycling" which goes undermentioned - trash to steam.

It "solves" sorting logistical issues nicely and any actually worthwhile
recyclables can be removed still. Granted care must still be taken for
handling emissions and it is more a "supplemental generation for disposing"
than any significant generation. I wonder if I am missing anything about it
aside from "landfills may be cheaper".

~~~
randcraw
I assume you're referring only to garbage, since all other substances produce
a lot more crap than steam when they degrade.

Why not just let garbage rot (i.e. compost)? Why worry about actively
recycling that which will fade away on its own?

~~~
rini17
Composting, unless carefully controlled, causes environmental pollution by
microplastics and chemicals like pharmaceuticals.

------
ryandvm
I try to recycle metal (especially aluminum) and glass. The recycling of
everything else is mostly a combination of virtue signaling and a jobs
program.

~~~
lotsofpulp
Also, the waste caused by commuting in a 5 passenger vehicle by oneself every
day, and living in a spacious home in a suburb and all the extra consumption
simply living in a low density environment probably offsets all the recycling
in a lifetime. Even funnier to think about all the separate recycling trucks
driving around all the extra distances due to everyone having quarter acre
lots.

~~~
WkndTriathlete
You forgot to subtract the human suffering inflicted onto introverted
personalities being forced to live in high-density urban housing as well as
the cost of a much higher infectious disease transmission rate, increased
crime (more humans in close proximity = more conflict), and/or higher cost of
building materials suitable for high-density human living and spaces or the
cost of human lives when the low-bid contract builds said housing and it
collapses.

Seriously, every time I read a comment like this it's like Dr. Strangelove has
walked off of Kubrick's set and into real life.

------
WhiteNoiz3
I remember when I was a kid and we used paper bags and almost everything came
in glass bottles. I think we as a society need to start making plastic a less
attractive option.

~~~
cellularmitosis
I was really disappointed when Austin, TX, in response to banning thin plastic
grocery bags, instead switched to using thicker "reusable" plastic bags, when
we could have just made paper bags the standard

~~~
acomjean
Up in MA (about boston) they now have to charge for bags. 10cents in
cambridge, 5 cents in Boston and a bunch of surrounding towns do the same. Its
been a couple years and you seem to see a lot fewer of them as trash. (We had
one that got blown up into a tree near where I live..)

After some initial griping I've gotten used to it. Its not a lot of money, but
it makes you more conscious of it (Because "do you need a bag" = $).

------
ZeroGravitas
Fascinating that the article most cited by the "recycling is a con by silly
hippies, just use disposable plastic and landfill it" crowd as well as this
"recycling is a con by evil big business, just stop buying stuff" article are
both from the New York Times.

I personally am part of the "we should charge corporations who generate the
refuse for disposal, clean up and recycling as well as carbon in production,
and let the market and human ingenuity then sort it out via a whole range of
specific interventions that match the needs of each sector" team.

That solution will almost certainly involve a whole bunch of recycling, plus
other things like making things easier to recycle, using more recycled
material, but apparently both the hippies and the libertarians think recycling
is a scam for entirely opposite reasons and so it's hard to have a nuanced
cost-based discussion about this, at least in the US.

In Europe they generally track the stats on how much is being recycled and
continuously aim to improve that, tweaking things as they go.

------
ryannevius
A direct link to the video: [https://nyti.ms/2sSbpKj](https://nyti.ms/2sSbpKj)

------
ptah
I am starting to think I need an app or something that can tell me if a
product's packaging can be recycled or not

~~~
arkitaip
Or maybe a way to quickly tell a product's total environmental impact over its
life cycle including post usage? Maybe even have that information available as
an comparable index so you can easily compare similar products? Here in
Sweden, many grocery stores display the product price per measurement unit,
making it easier to understand, for example, how much your pasta is costing
per kg across different brands.

~~~
ptah
Can you give an example to make it clear for me please

EDIT: example of measurement unit shown

~~~
arkitaip
If you take a look at this online Swedish grocery store where I searched for
pasta [0], you can see the price for each product but also the cost per kg
("jmf pris"):

* Jmf pris 21:27 /kg

* Jmf pris 38:55 /kg

* Jmf pris 16:95 /kg

[0]
[https://www.mathem.se/sok?q=snabbmakaroner&page=1&pageSize=4...](https://www.mathem.se/sok?q=snabbmakaroner&page=1&pageSize=40&type=p)

------
sidpatil
Tangentially related:

I wish composting was more widespread. We could solve so many issues with
waste management with it.

------
purple-again
I can't read it, outline it, or use a private browser. Would someone be so
kind as to provide a method for reading the article?

~~~
achow
[http://archive.is/6dfLd](http://archive.is/6dfLd)

------
trimmedarticle
For paywalls, and without any JS:
[https://beta.trimread.com/articles/606](https://beta.trimread.com/articles/606)

