
The Hidden Cost of Smart Drugs (2008) - andreyf
http://scienceblogs.com/cortex/2008/05/the_hidden_cost_of_smart_drugs.php?
======
madair
Short version of this blog entry: I heard someone say somewhere once that it
seemed to lower their creativity and it totally makes sense doesn't it!!!!

~~~
metamemetics
Regardless of his lack of scientific method, I would agree that most
stimulants do decrease creativity to some degree. However, some nootropics
that enhance utilization of acetylcholine DO enhance creativity, specifically
piracetam and aniracetam. My problem with the article is mis-titling it "smart
drugs" if it is only about Provigil.

The wikipedia nootropic article has almost everything you would want to know:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nootropic>

~~~
justin_vanw
So you would like to complain that the article is unscientific, but counter
with snake oil?

~~~
silentbicycle
His complaint (and one I share) is that most blog posts about nootropics are
actually about stimulants, while there are actually several nootropics that
are well-studied, reasonably safe, and probably effective * , but since they
don't get you wired, they're apparently too boring to mention.

* though my stance on this is that you're better off actually getting enough sleep, eating well, taking it easy on caffeine and alcohol, and _then_ seeing if you're still fixated on smart drugs. Piracetam is probably the most benign, though.

~~~
justin_vanw
Since you apparently already modded me down for disagreeing with me, would you
care to back up your nonsense?

I would love to see a link to a reputable scientific journal which
demonstrated that "some nootropics that enhance utilization of acetylcholine
DO enhance creativity, specifically piracetam and aniracetam".

If you can't come up with one, would you like to explain the whole 'probably
effective'?

~~~
silentbicycle
I didn't mod you down. I'm not that invested. The part that really bothers me
is the whole, "We're going to talk about how 'smart drugs' make you creative,
and then spend a post rambling about how taking speed is awesome" load of crap
that seems to come up like clockwork here.

I've tried piracetam (and other various racetams), and stand by my opinion at
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1212193>. I did my research, but it was
five-ish years ago, and don't have it on hand anymore. (I also don't work at a
library with awesome medical journal access anymore...sigh.) Most of what I
read concerned people with Alzheimers or other degenerative conditions
associated with old age, or measurable brain damage caused by years and years
of heavy drinking. I'm convinced that piracetam is probably useful, but for
healthy people, sleeping enough / eating better / etc. will probably have as
much effect. ("Probably effective" < "definitely effective.") On the other
hand, it's been around long enough (IIRC the patent has expired; there's
certainly no money in it), that it's probably not a high priority for further
research. The consensus is that it's reasonably safe, though, and I'd rather
have people who insist trying that than amphetamines.

FWIW, I had the best results with getting more sleep and switching (mostly)
from coffee to green tea. I had really poor sleep hygiene, but was ignoring it
because I wanted to keep learning more. Wikisomnia.

~~~
justin_vanw
I'm still honestly curious, _what_ is paracetam supposedly effective at?

You have to take _grams_ of the stuff, and there appears that there is
basically no LD-50. The studies that show any effect at all are fairly dubious
IMHO, and meta studies have been particularly harsh on the methodologies used.
If I had to make a wager, I would say that it has no measurable effect on
anything.

~~~
metamemetics
I get great effects from ~400mg aniracetam when combined with an acetylcholine
precursor + any other stimulant. It makes almost every other drug more potent
and last longer and increases clarity\recall. Boosting acetylcholine also
activates the sympathetic nervous system to lower heart rate which offsets any
of the usual caffeine anxiousness\restlessness for me. I agree piracetam
(which is even less stimulatory than aniracetam) would not be a wonder-drug if
taken alone without an acetylcholine precursor or stimulant.

------
Unseelie
As a lifelong ADHD child, I do agree. Take a pill, write a report for 8 hours.
But attempt a poem, a piece of story, and nothing happens. Attempt a
daydream...nothing. You're very focused, and that means you struggle to talk
to anyone...because they're not into your topic. Focus makes you boring.

~~~
googler
I'm told that's why you have to balance it out with weed.

~~~
geoffc
Interesting enough I find a hang over unleashes my creativity.

~~~
rictic
Agreed. I've also found that going without sleep for >24 hours has some
similar effects.

It's worth doing every once in a while just to experience the altered state.

------
endlessvoid94
How did this make it onto a science blog?

"It only makes sense..." is the start to many failures in our understanding.
Wtf?

~~~
billswift
Unfortunately, I have noticed before that a lot of stuff on scienceblogs.com
isn't very scientific, it's more than a bit of a grab-bag.

------
silentbicycle
Talking about nootropics is one of the recurring HN threads. (Next up?
Probably polyphasic sleep.)

See also: (<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1211959>)

------
sliverstorm
That's not exactly that great of a cost. Just use it when it's appropriate.

"Hidden Cost" implies a real danger, particularly a long term impact, and this
article has no such dangers to present.

------
justin_vanw
"relied on crushed Ritalin"

Yea, people crush Ritalin to get high, because it speeds absorption. Also,
'his friends' did this? Is he really that gutless that he can't own up to
taking a few pills in college?

I can say that I have taken Ritalin with a prescription, and at appropriate
doses I didn't have any such loss of creativity. Ritalin causes a release of
dopamine, which makes things more interesting (it also acts as a more general
stimulant). You feel wide awake and things seem interesting, that was my
entire experience. When Ritalin wears off you basically feel crappy, as you do
with any old school stimulant.

Provigil, of course, is not Ritalin, they act in almost completely different
ways and are basically not comparable. Provigil is not very effective at
preventing distractions, it has a tiny effect on dopamine. Provigil wakes you
up so that you don't feel sleepy, which is about the extent of it. Usually
feeling wide awake puts you in a generally good mood. It is hard to get work
done when you are fighting sleepyness. So in that sense, you do accomplish
more while taking it, since you are feeling refreshed and able to tackle
things. The downside is that it is easy to forget that you still need to rest
the same amount, and the effects of lack of sleep are not changed at all (if
you stay up a long time on provigil, you don't feel tired, but you are still
impaired by the lack of sleep just the same).

------
tman
The blog post gives the example of how more distractable old people can
outperform less distractable young people on a specially contrived mental
test. Similarly, if you put a bunch of junk for someone to trip over on the
way to the bathroom, it would be the old person who tripped over it all that
would remember it on his return.

But in what real-world mental challenges do old people have the advantage over
the young? In mathematics, for example, you're an old man at 30. Except for
Erdős the meth-addict, of course.

~~~
Psyonic
Erdos took amphetamines (speed, Adderall, etc), not methamphetamines. They are
related drugs, but meth is much stronger and dangerous.

~~~
tman
Case of exaggeration for comedic effect.

~~~
Psyonic
Gotcha. I'm not a mathematician, but your comment made me feel like I'm
running out of time to make a difference, and I'm only 24. It also gave me a
bit of confidence that I can. Anyway, better get to it!

~~~
Dove
Mathematics is good at making young people feel old.

Take Galois, for instance (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galois>). Solved one
of the major mathematical problems of his time. Founded a major branch of
abstract algebra (seriously -- in a three quarter grad level course, you spend
about a quarter on it).

Died at 20.

