
Ask HN: Where do you go for sound career advice? - soulbadguy
As a professional dev, where do you get the best career advice ?<p>Is it a good idea to ask recruters what they are looking for ?<p>Any career coaching services tailors to dev&#x2F;computer scientist out there ?
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beat
I think "career advice" is generally too narrow a category. Most people are
unhappy with their careers because they don't know what their life priorities
are. They have the career they have because of a bunch of "Well, that's what
I'm supposed to do, I guess" decisions. So before career advice, get life
advice.

My favorite question in the world is "What do you want?" It's an incredibly
difficult question, and very few people can answer it with any honesty. Sit
and chew on that question. What do you want? If it proves hard, try applying
the Five Whys approach. When you think about something you want, ask yourself
why you want it. Five layers deep. Then maybe you can start getting close to
what you really want.

~~~
afarrell
So suppose I know what I want in an easily definable and describable sense.
Where does one go to get advise about how the world works with respect to that
goal and to bounce ideas for a plan of action off of? Self knowledge is super
important, but the Sun Tzu quote about knowing yourself has another half: you
also have to know what you're dealing with.

(In my specific case: getting myself into a good position to eventually apply
to work in the UK 1-2 years from now, given a current background of 3 years in
DevOps and Python web dev)

~~~
beat
Start with people who have already done what you want to do. If you can meet
them personally and ask, do so (and getting to meet them can itself be quite a
task). If they're historical or inaccessible, learn about them. Heroes and
role models really matter. Find "a man to be emulated and admired".

What you'll sometimes find is that they'll teach you to not do what they did.
For example, I'm a guitarist, and a very good one. I work hard at it. I had
the opportunity to have a few conversations with the greatest guitarist I've
ever met, and extraordinary musician. What I found out is that he's a very
small person in a lot of ways. He practices or gigs about 12 hours a day,
every day. He can't talk about much other than playing music. At that, he's
tremendously deep. At everything else in life, he's a wreck.

------
aweb
I discovered the /r/cscareerquestions subreddit recently, and its content has
been really interesting so far:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions](https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions)

~~~
strathmeyer
They are a little... harsh there. It's hard to get through all the negativity,
especially when you are looking for a job.

~~~
Doe22
Harsh in what way? Some resume critiques have seemed a little rough to me, but
generally speaking I haven't noticed too much negativity.

~~~
atmosx
I've skimmed through the sub-reddit. He means that they are _absolute_ in ways
that are simply not true and could discourage a newbe.

That said, IMHO it's better to ask then to hold it to yourself. Here or on
Reddit doesn't matter.

It's good to keep in mind that there are infinitely diversified ways through
which people achieved "a successful career" (whatever that means).

~~~
strathmeyer
Whenever I talk to successful people they just say it was easy for them so I
must be stupid if I can't get things to work out for me. There doesn't seem to
be any place for programmers to get actual advice on how to get jobs.

------
JSeymourATL
> Is it a good idea to ask recruiters what they are looking for?

No, the average bozo recruiter is a transactionally focused individual. He's a
bounty hunter, looking to put butts in seats for a fee. Time is money to him,
if he can't qualify you for a match he must move on quickly.

You may of course, run across a rare thoughtful, seasoned recruiter. His
profile is that of a relationship builder, he'll likely have some life
experience and will gently entertain your career path questions.

Better still, design your own path. Make a daily habit to read the books and
blogs of successful people. An excellent place to start, Peter Drucker on
Managing Oneself>
[http://academic.udayton.edu/lawrenceulrich/LeaderArticles/Dr...](http://academic.udayton.edu/lawrenceulrich/LeaderArticles/Drucker%20Managing%20Oneself.pdf)

~~~
soulbadguy
Thank you. This is exactly the kind of information i was looking for.

------
acconrad
So far my advice has come from people who I want to become - mentors who are
currently CTOs, CXOs, and other self-starting entrepreneurs. Who better to
give you advice than those who have already traveled the road you want to
travel?

------
sm00ve
[http://programmers.stackexchange.com/](http://programmers.stackexchange.com/)

[http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?CategoryLifeStrategies](http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?CategoryLifeStrategies)

[http://tinyurl.com/oauzqc9](http://tinyurl.com/oauzqc9) \- Pragmatic
Programmer book

------
buckbova
You're at point A. What is point B?

Come up with many possible point Bs where you'd like to end up. Find people in
those positions, whether it be CTO, lead programmer, freelancer, or whatever
and ask them what it took for them to reach that destination.

Plot your course from there.

~~~
afarrell
Part of the difficulty is that if none of the people at point B has gotten
there by going through point A, it is going to be hard for them to know your
challenges.

For example, if a history major from a small liberal-arts college asks me how
to get into DevOps, my answer is going into be affected by my having been able
to spend several years hanging around SIPB, which is basically MIT's DevOps
club. Maybe they can do the same, but it would be pretty expensive.

~~~
zhte415
My response would be "Why DevOps?". That's it. Let them talk.

Then information can be found. Interesting responses and experiences. Find a
winner.

Responses, motivations, and pointers, telling me far more than, that you did
to your hypothetical applicant: plant into a well and expect them to be able
to jump out by having a DevOps club experience at an 'expensive' (unclear if
social, financial, or other cost) club. Grow people or crush people?

------
agounaris
Noone will give you a valid career advice if you don't know what is that you
really want to do. If you are sure of your goals your brain will find a way to
get there, if you are not sure, then you need a few "meetings with yourself"

ps: the majority of recruiters doesn't give a damn about your career just
because they are busy building their own...and it makes sense.

~~~
vonmoltke
True. Depending on what you really want to do, though, too much aimless
wandering can lock you out. I think I have reached that point in my career. :/

------
flipp3r
[developer] Personally, my job right now is fairly solid with "full stack"
mainly Java & JavaScript expertise. Getting experience in a lot of different
stuff, and specialising in a couple also allows me to tailor my CV if I ever
need a new job. Which has worked out really, really well for me in getting
jobs.

I'd say dont focus too much on one technology or framework and make sure to
spend time with the best colleagues you have, on projects. You can learn a LOT
like this in no time at all.

This website is also a really good source for stuff you need to learn, if
something is being posted on here for over a year and noone complains about it
too much it's probably good. ( ie new-ish stuff like Docker, React, etc. )

Also you mention recruiters; I don't trust recruiters at all and have had
enough bad experiences with them blatantly lying to me. They're just looking
to do their job and make a lot of money, I wouldn't expect honest advice from
them.

------
msutherl
Most of the advice I've received in life has been misleading – most people did
not know what they were doing, are probably unaware of what actually mattered,
and are different from you in ways they are biased not to perceive – so
recently I exclaimed in frustration: "no more advice."

Instead of seeking guidance, sit down with a piece of paper and try figuring
it out for yourself. Make lists, weigh pros and cons, identify key questions.
Don't be afraid to throw out your work and start again. Speaking with others
is useful, but consider their stories merely data points for your own
analysis.

Some of the more successful people I know have elaborate manifestos, codes of
ethics, and spreadsheets that they use to organize and manage meaning in their
lives.

------
gwbas1c
IMO, the most important thing to realize is that you're not in control. If you
think you're in control; it's merely an illusion.

Treat your career as a means to end; not as an end itself.

------
lwhalen
I come from the sysadmin side of things, and the best career advice I get is
from LOPSA - www.lopsa.org. I've been a proper member since, oh, 2008 or so,
but I've hung out on their IRC channel and attended their meetings well before
that. They've been enormously helpful for me when seeking career advice,
resume editing, technical help, etc, and I can't recommend them highly enough.

------
calebm
Nice meta question. HackerNews seems like a good choice.

~~~
JonFish85
Not really. It's very biased towards startups and high-energy startups. I
don't know that you'd find many people giving the opinion that a career at
Raytheon/IBM/BigCo can be very rewarding, and in fact might make more sense
than startups. There's something to be said about relative stability and
focusing on spending time with family & friends, saving into a 401k for a nice
retirement and generally not worrying about the startup life which, despite
the perks (free lunch, "unlimited" vacation time, etc), can be a lot more
hectic.

As to the OP, I'd say try to find opinions of people you respect, even if they
aren't in your field at all. Who are people you look up to? Friends, family,
bosses, coworkers are all good sources. Generally I've found people older than
me to be most useful, just because they've made similar choices and might have
interesting insights into things. Ultimately, as others have said, it's really
going to be up to you to decide what's right for you, but at least gather some
information, and talk to people.

------
theaccordance
I find the best career advice comes from those who are where I'm trying to get
to. Ideally, not too far ahead in their own career, that way the advice
they'll impart will be fresh and relative to the current industry environment.

Re: recruiters, doesn't hurt to ask questions with recruiters for placement
agencies; they get paid when you get placed so it's in their interest to get
you hired.

------
JoshTriplett
Talk to the people in positions you'd aspire to in the future. If you'd like
to be a technical leader in your company, talk to technical leaders in your
company. If you'd like to be a leader in the Free Software community, talk to
leaders in the Free Software community.

That will get you _far_ better advice than any kind of "career coaching"
service.

------
tomh-
[https://www.careerdean.com/](https://www.careerdean.com/)

------
nedwin
Disclaimer: I am not a programmer.

I found mentors in positions that I aspired to be in and would take them out
for coffee or lunch once a year to check in and get input on particular
problems.

I've also used Clarity.fm from time to time for specific questions.

Now at a bigger corporate I'm looking into executive coaching.

------
lordnacho
I'm surprised nobody has said friends and family. Those are the people who
know you best, live with you, studied with you, worked with you.

Chances are that between those categories you've got it all covered: what you
did, what you like, what you can do.

~~~
marcosdumay
It's not that they are wrong. The problem with "friends and family" is that
the last group you'll want to take advice from is a democracy.

If you reach specific people, carefully selected to ask specific questions,
you'll get useful answers. If you go away asking people at random, you'll get
answers that can not be used even as a popularity pool.

~~~
lordnacho
It's not like they get to vote. The point is friends and family are more
likely to contain informed opinions than randoms.

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ExpiredLink
The only sound career advice I can give is to go for a profession where
experience is valued (law, management, ...) and avoid professions where
experience is devalued (e.g. programming).

~~~
rubiquity
Do you work in law or management?

Are you certain experience is always valued in law and management?

What about consulting companies in the law and management spaces? Do they
value experience or just billable hours from warm bodies?

Is experience more valuable simply because it is easily measured whereas skill
is hard to measure?

Is there a correlation between experience and skill?

Is it good to seek out places where experience is valued so that you can
acquire X years of experience and simply just coast?

Have you ever worked with a programmer who had 15 years of experience but was
awful at their job? What about the inverse?

~~~
ExpiredLink
> _Do you work in law or management?_

No but I know some lawyers. If you specialize in one domain you can make a lot
of money. The more experience you get the better. In contrast, programmers
with lots of experience often have a hard time getting a new job. They are
considered old farts who are overwhelmed by the 'new' over-hyped technology.

------
atsaloli
I ask my mentor who is more senior than me.

------
graycat
What I'd wished I'd known and recommend that others realize these lessons now:

(1) ASAP quit being an employee and, instead, be a sole proprietor who owns
his own business.

Advantages:

(A) Can't be fired due to office politics.

(B) Guaranteed to win in any office politics fights.

(C) Unless the business really is a total disaster, guaranteed to still have a
job.

(2) Pick a business with a strong _barrier to entry_. The three best barriers:

(A) Geographical. Want a business where all competition is within 50 miles,
that is, no business more than 50 miles away is a competitor.

So, Don't want to compete with Amazon, Dell, Cisco, Microsoft, Google, GE,
Citi, Wal-Mart, some company in China, the Middle East, etc.

Examples: Fast food, gas station and convenience store, grass mowing and
landscaping, roofing, kitchen/bath renovation, auto repair, auto body repair,
pediatrics, dermatology, dentistry, some _big-truck_ little truck businesses
(buy merchandise in large quantities with a big truck and sell it in small
quantities from little trucks -- may become increasingly vulnerable to Amazon,
etc.), bakery selling fancy cakes, with customer decoration, maybe with a lot
of whipped cream that doesn't ship well, Chinese carry-out, French bistro,
Italian red sauce restaurant.

Doing well running four franchised fast food restaurants can be fine -- doing
well with 10 can do still better.

E.g., I know a guy in NYS in the US running 4 Burger King locations; he's from
Turkey, still doesn't speak English very well, needs a bath, a shave, and some
clean, neat clothes, is great with people, and is doing well.

(B) Can't be Automated.

(C) Legally needs a professional license.

(3) Cross Section of Local Economy.

Want a business with many small customers across a large cross section of the
local economy so that if the local economy is doing anything at all then can
still have an okay business; this likely means no one customer provides more
than 1% of the revenue.

(4) Small, Medium Town

Try to locate in a small or medium sized town.

Advantages:

(A) Real estate costs much less, and can buy and own a house in a rural
location without too much driving to business locations.

(B) Easier to build the _brand name_ you need.

(C) Taxes lower. Regulations fewer. To ease regulatory approvals, can know the
people on the Town Council and the Zoning Board and the local people holding
elective office.

(D) Usually better environment for having a family.

(E) If the economy gets really sick, can then just _retire_ to rural house and
get most of food from own garden.

(F) Have a shot at having nearly a local monopoly, say, dry cleaning, coin
laundry.

(G) Can have spouse, kids help in the business -- big advantages here.

(H) Have various ways to save on taxes.

