
Death on an Unruly, Overcrowded Everest - whack
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/26/world/asia/mount-everest-deaths.html
======
manfredo
This picture from the article basically sums it up:
[https://static01.nyt.com/images/2019/05/27/world/26everest2-...](https://static01.nyt.com/images/2019/05/27/world/26everest2-print/merlin_155279730_9a078aae-b874-4b50-9ff4-72a8ec2a93ae-
superJumbo.jpg?quality=90&auto=webp)

I'm not sure what the appeal of Everest really is anymore now that it's been
so developed. I've known people with minimal (as in, hiked up Mount Rainier
and some other mountains that are totally achievable for normal people of okay
fitness) climbing experience that climbed Everest. I wonder what it'd be if
they mandated that people had to climb at least one other or two other 8
thousanders before climbing Everest. It'd probably cut down on the total
traffic, while simultaneously generating even more revenue for Nepal as would-
be Everest climbers now need to do one or two extra climbs.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
Is there any way to avoid the queue? I’ve always wanted to summit Everest. But
my hatred of lines is stronger.

~~~
manfredo
Climb during the winter. Of course, this is significantly more challenging.
Many of the first winter ascents of 8000+ meter peaks weren't until the 80s,
90s, or even 2000s for some peaks.

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joelrunyon
Worth noting that the photo that sparked all this controversy the last week is
continually used w/out credit / compensation to it's owner (looks like NYT got
it through Getty), but overall - incredible how many outlets aren't adhering
to normal journalistic standards.

[https://twitter.com/nimsdai/status/1132632755605573632](https://twitter.com/nimsdai/status/1132632755605573632)

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mc32
Apparently there are only two to three days per year when the weather is
favorable enough for ascent. This queue only happens two or three times a
year, not everyday. So these crowds happen twice or thrice per year.

The way picture is circulated it’s as if this were a daily occurrence ala
Mount Fuji.

That said, this is perfect opportunity to set a limit, have a lottery system
and charge an additional non trivial fee for the final summit push.

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momokoko
The type of person that wants to climb Everest is what I refer to as
"Checklisters". They have a list of things they want to do so that they can
impress others and they run through that list collecting prestige points.

Its the same empty emotion as greed. And just like greed it is a bottomless
pit where it is never enough.

Because of that, when someone tells me they did something like climb Everest,
I instantly write them off as a very shallow person that only cares about what
other people think of them.

~~~
jobigoud
Hmmm, I keep a list of things I want to do. Like poke lava with a stick,
attend a rocket launch, visit meteor crater, write a tool used by a million
people. I don't see it as necessarily bad to have a checklist. It helps manage
time.

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freeflight
That picture with that waiting line to the summit, up to 1.000 feet long
according to the article, has something weirdly dystopian to it, just like
this whole story.

If remote and hostile places like this are already suffering from
"overcrowding" due to tourism, then I'm not very optimistic the rest of the
planet will fare any better in dealing with the unchecked human population
growth and all of its consequences.

~~~
jsloss
It’s the most well known climbing destination, not just a “remote and hostile”
place. It speaks to the end of the normal distribution curve for
experiences/social signalling like this.

There’s Everest and there’s the rest.

~~~
dmix
Pretty much everyone in North America and I’m sure Europe and most other
countries have heard of Mount Everest since they were a kid.

It’s height may be one of the most commonly known facts in the world.

Not many other tourist destinations have that level of global recognition.
Regardless of the difficulty. The difficulty probably only adds to it’s allure
and humane are biologically hard wired to seek hard challenges.

It’s not too hard to figure out.

The good news is that there are thousands of other mountains around the world
so there will never be a shortage to climb... unlike most natural wonders.

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drcode
What it boils down to is that there used to be a lot of status given to
Everest climbers, inducing the same type of awe that we gave people who've
landed on the moon or who won an Olympic gold medal.

Unfortunately, not all of this reverence for Everest climbers has disappeared
(yet) and unlike those other categories climbing this mountain could be
commoditized, turning it into a simple money transaction at this point (yes
sure, you still have to endure some hardship to climb Everest.)

~~~
sandworm101
>> reverence for Everest climbers

There is diminished reverence in the climbing community because of the
traffic. Everest climbers no longer need many basic climbing skills, from
fixing pro to route finding. K2 is the new Everest.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest_mountains](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest_mountains)

Pick one. They are all more difficult than Everest these days.

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joelrunyon
Easy fix:

Raise prices and/or require people to pass a specific fitness requirement
(like you have to qualify for Boston or Ironman).

You cut down on lines and reduce the # of people that shouldn't be up there
(and endangering other people while they're at it).

~~~
sizzzzlerz
In 1996, when the disaster on Everest results in 8 deaths, it cost
participants about $65000 to be hauled to the top by "guides". Some 23 years
later, that price is probably close to one hundred grand and the mountain is
more crowded than before suggesting cost is not a factor here.

~~~
joelrunyon
It's the increase in permitting as well. I should have stated that above -
raise prices + put limits on # of permits issued.

Also - as the article mentioned - gear is better - so it's not as physically
treacherous for the avg climber. That said - when things turn bad - you end up
with people that shouldn't be up there in the first place.

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ianai
I’m increasingly of the opinion that people shouldn’t be climbing that
mountain. It seems like the height of entitlement and hubris.

~~~
paulcole
To steal a Metafilter tradition,

Hacker News: Seems like the height of entitlement and hubris.

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spraak
The microcosm of the macrocosm - the problems on Everest reflect (not
perfectly) the problems (trash, corruption, pollution, greed, etc.) everywhere
on Earth, that both on Everest and elsewhere are increasing in magnitude and
scope.

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zyngaro
The sight of a queue on the top of the greatest mountain of the world feels so
sad.

~~~
empath75
Just seems emblematic of all the ways we’re fucking the planet up.

~~~
hprotagonist
the detritus even more than the line.

[http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/D3C1/production/_...](http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/D3C1/production/_95390245_gettyimages-103166035.jpg)

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sharkweek
I dabble in mountaineering, mostly in the Cascades, it’s an amazing sport.

Everest has an appeal to it of course but the last few years that has dropped
to zero. I can’t imagine what it would be like to get stuck in a line like
that at the summit.

I’m trying to think of a fair solution here, because there are a lot of moving
parts.

Lower the number of permits / raise prices of legitimate permits too much and
the black market flourishes. Not to mention the people who work in that sector
of Nepalese tourism suffer greatly.

Maybe a fitness test, or proof of past mountaineering experience. But that
again seems to open up another can of worms.

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sizzzzlerz
It seems that Jon Krakauer's 1997 book "Into Thin Air" about the 1996 disaster
that resulted in 8 deaths on Everest has encouraged people to go rather than
acting as a warning.

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ecocentrik
I think it's amazing that technology and economic incentives allow this kind
of absurdity to occur. The story invokes serious cognitive dissonance along
with strong emotions of disgust and competitive angst. Visiting Niagara Falls
and the Grand Canyon were serious undertakings at some point before they were
turned into roadside attractions. The challenges today seem to be the base of
the Mariana Trench and Mars while Everest is relegated to the status of Tinder
date talking point.

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barking
All time totals, by the end of 2017:

 _Overall, 4,833 different people have summited Everest for a total of 8,306
summits._

While in 2017 itself:

 _In 2017, there were 648 summits._

Lots of other interesting stats [https://gripped.com/news/mount-everest-
numbers-2017-overall/](https://gripped.com/news/mount-everest-
numbers-2017-overall/)

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booleandilemma
From looking at that ridiculous pic of the people lined up to reach the top of
Everest, I gather that it’s much less of a challenge than it used to be.

So what are the people who _really_ want to challenge themselves doing
nowadays? (Besides writing JavaScript on the server)

What’s the new Everest?

~~~
ivalm
M2 is probably the hardest of the 8k peaks

~~~
sizzzzlerz
K2

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dang
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19996108](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19996108)

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bdz
Will it be ever possible to fly/lift people there with a helicopter or a yet
not-available flying device? Like to the top or near to the top

Edit: actually possible and have been done before
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didier_Delsalle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didier_Delsalle)

~~~
albertgoeswoof
Air is too thin for helicopters, you can already fly over it in a plane.

What would be the point in flying up there anyway.

~~~
dorfsmay
What is the point of being walked there by professional guides and Sherpas?

~~~
rurban
It's not professional guides and sherpas anymore, it's an industry. The summit
became a pure management problem. The recent "Everest" movie described it very
well.

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781
Don't take this as ageist, but when you have 62 year olds reaching the top of
Everest, you know it's not what it used to be.

BTW, everybody seems to have an oxygen face mask, not to mention modern
clothing and base camps.

~~~
mahart
And Sherpa laborers hauling heavy oxygen tanks up ahead.

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lqet
Why are people going up there? What is the reward?

~~~
crimsonalucard
What's the reward for going to the moon?

~~~
lqet
There is a significant difference in nearly every thinkable aspect between an
astronaut conquering other planets and a tourist climbing a mountain.

~~~
crimsonalucard
Right and I obviously didn't know this thanks for illustrating this new and
exciting fact.

Obviously climbing a mountain is much more trivial then going to the moon.
Additionally, climbing everest is now a really touristy activity that
basically anyone can do... But this wasn't always the case. Everest use to be
a huge unattainable challenge and finally reaching the summit was a historical
achievement. Now summitting everest has been commercialized to the point where
any man can do it. But the cultural artifact still exists in a way. It still
holds the reputation of being a milestone for humanity... the difference now
is for ONLY 50k you can achieve this milestone too! (tm)

Ultimately I wait for the day when tourism to the moon becomes so
commercialized, disgusting, cheap and fake that someone literally comes to HN
and asks the question:

 _What 's the reward for going to another planet?_

and to this I respond:

 _What 's the reward for going to another star?_

and some other snarky commenter says:

 _There is a significant difference in nearly every thinkable aspect between
an astronaut conquering another star and a tourist going to visit some
planet._

And I'll retort:

 _Right and I obviously didn 't know this thanks for illustrating this new and
exciting fact.

Obviously going to another planet is much more trivial then going to alpha
centuari. Additionally, going to another planet is now a really touristy
activity that basically anyone can do... But this wasn't always the case.
Visiting other planets use to be a huge unattainable challenge and finally
reaching another one was a historical achievement. Now going to another planet
has been commercialized to the point where any man can do it. But the cultural
artifact still exists in a way. It still holds the reputation of being a
milestone for humanity... the difference now is for ONLY 50k you can achieve
this milestone too! (tm)

Ultimately I wait for the day when light speed travel to other stars becomes
so commercialized, disgusting, cheap and fake that someone literally comes to
HN and asks the question:_

What's the reward for going to another star?

 _and to which I respond:_

What was the reward for climbing everest?

~~~
lqet
> Right and I obviously didn't know this thanks for illustrating this new and
> exciting fact.

There is no reason to be that sarcastic, obviously we are talking about
different things. You are talking about the historical achievement that
climbing Mt. Everest was. I am not disputing that. What I am asking is whether
there is any reward in climbing this mountain _today_.

~~~
crimsonalucard
If you didn't catch it... My answer is, yes. The historical significance of
summiting Mt. Everest will never go away. That is in itself the reward. That's
why people visit famous places and iconic landmarks for vacation. This will
always overshadow some internet article criticizing it as a tourist trap.

Also See: Great wall of china, Pyramids of Giza, etc, etc.

