
Spot the Drowning Child (2015) - vinnyglennon
http://spotthedrowningchild.com/#
======
balls187
When I was 12, I went on a week long hike as a scout. We decided to swim
across a lake, and 1/2 way through, I got tired, and tried swimming back, but
couldn't.

I remember having the presence of mind to yell out help before blanking out.
My closest friend in the troop luckily turned around, swam back to and drug me
back to shore.

I was scared of the water after that, but some how ended up fighting my fear
and earning the swimming merit badge, which for a weak swimmer, was no easy
task.

For his heroism, and because I had overcome my near death experience, we were
both recognized for embodying different aspects of scouting.

That incident in the lake inspired my friend to go on to become a life-guard.

Both my kids started swim lessons in infancy, and my oldest son gets
compliments for his swimming skills while at the public pool. Though the pool
we use has life guards, I never for a second take my eyes of my kids.

Maybe one day they'll go on to be life guards prior to college.

~~~
lm28469
Something similar happened to me as a kid, I decided to swim from our boat to
the shore of the lake, got exhausted 100 meters from the shore. Before going
in full panic mode I remembered you can basically float indefinitely on your
back with very minimal effort and did just that until I was calm and rested.

Turns out our mandatory swimming lessons from the age of 8 weren't as useless
as I thought.

~~~
irrational
I think the skill of being able to flip onto your back and scuttle to wherever
you need to go is more important than knowing how to swim (and I love to swim
- I swam 2 kilometers just this morning). Unless you are in super cold or
choppy water you should be just fine.

~~~
scaryclam
I have some very young nephews. As well as teaching them how to swim, we're
teaching them how to flip over and float, just for this reason. If they can do
that, and recognise when they're in trouble, then it might just save their
lives one day.

~~~
Mirioron
Don't forget teaching them how to swim on their backs.

------
ben7799
Like others who commented I worked as a life guard and water safety instructor
when I was younger. (Everything I am saying pertains to the US only.)

I rescued quite a few children, it's hard to see in this video because the
video quality is poor and the camera is at an angle that is worse than what
the lifeguard in the video is seeing. Overall this victim is fairly active and
should not have been very hard to spot in person for a well trained lifeguard.
(And they did spot the child.)

This is a weird video because:

There are lifeguard(s) but yet the pool is full of non coast-guard approved
tubes and floatation devices such. Most places with well trained lifeguards
would not allow this. They don't work, can be more dangerous than no PFD, and
they make it harder for the lifeguards to see. The worst drowning incident I
witnessed involved a child in a tube who got flipped upside down and couldn't
get out of the tube or flip back over. (I was not a lifeguard yet when I saw
that.)

I think things from my perspective are in a terrible state in terms of water
safety compared to 20 years ago.

Something must have changed with insurance liability, as most places just
don't even have lifeguards. Resort pools I see these days are designed in a
way where sight lines are so poor lifeguards/parents cannot even see children
in the pools unless they are in the pool and stay within 10ft of the child.
Very different than things used to be. Pool designers have reduced depth &
eliminated diving boards resulting in a false sense of security. Meanwhile the
pools are no longer even sufficient to be used for teaching up to a point
where a person can be considered a swimmer. I just got back from vacation and
the resort we stayed at had a pool which absolutely terrified me. I was 100%
in lifeguard mode the entire time my child was in the pool, and the pool was
so bad I couldn't sit in one spot and see him, I had to walk the edge of the
pool to maintain sight lines. (The pool in the video is not like this FWIW)

Fewer young people are supposedly physically fit and able to get to advanced
swimming levels and pass tough standards like Red Cross. There are fewer
places that even have Red Cross accredited programs these days as a result.
Red Cross level instructors command high pay, and most places teaching
swimming lessons these days are money making businesses that pay instructors
near minimum wage and try to make the franchise owner wealthy. This is a
relatively large change from non-profit Red Cross programs back in the day.

Red Cross has always refused to act as insurance for pools/resorts/water
parks, and alternate private organizations now certify lower quality
lifeguards & swim instructors and we have new things like "Shallow Water
lifeguards" that can be paid minimum wage. These alternate private
certification orgs train to a lower level but do act as insurance so they're
very attractive.

I have a 7 year old, he's been through 4 private orgs so far. None have had
Red Cross accredited programs. All of them have been super expensive but
they're the only choice available. 3 of them did not have deep enough water
and their instructors were not trained at a level for teaching to a full
"Swimmer" level. None of the programs seem to focus on water safety and have
strange practices like trying to teaching 5 year olds the butterfly and other
high energy/low safety strokes without teaching elementary backstroke,
breaststroke, sidestroke, etc.. which are more useful in emergency water
situations. Most of the instructors I've seen teaching my child show poor
enough form they'd have not passed a Water Safety course 20 years ago.

The whole thing is a giant mess. I have been considering getting re-certified
to take over finishing my child's swimming lessons, but the course is hard to
take these days. Which also explains why not enough 16-20 year olds manage to
take it. And there are almost no pools left to use that are not privately
owned and have deep enough water.

Also at least by the old standards when someone who was a Red Cross WSI calls
someone a swimmer we're talking about a pretty high level. Someone who can't
swim for 30 minutes to safety in deep water is not necessarily a swimmer IMO.
Maybe standards have reduced. But that was a requirement at one point. And
this is not something that requires elite physical fitness or stamina when you
are trained to swim well. Some of the strokes are barely more physically
taxing than walking if you're proficient. Non swimmers get a false idea about
this because they mostly see competitive swimming which uses the taxing/fast
strokes.

~~~
smileysteve
> teaching 5 year olds the butterfly and other high energy/low safety strokes
> without teaching elementary backstroke, breaststroke, sidestroke.

I am amazed at how few of my early millennial peers have never heard of the
elementary backstroke.

~~~
kubanczyk
I just googled "elementary backstroke" and yeah... I'm in my forties, pretty
proficient swimmer, and nobody ever showed it to me.

I watch my kid's lessons and I'm sure I didn't see it being shown to them.
They got into what I google as "backstroke" straight away, without the
"elementary" phase.

~~~
bsurmanski
I just looked it up and turns out that's my favourite stroke! I didn't know it
had a name, I just called it the "Jellyfish" :)

I don't think I was ever taught it. I think I just discovered it playing
around in the water one day.

~~~
mark-r
That's one of my favorites too! I didn't know it had a name either.

When I want to play around, I try swimming backwards. On my back, with my feet
straight ahead and motionless, I stroke backwards with my arms so I move in
the direction my feet are pointing.

------
minimonk
One of the important lessons I learnt from a lifeguard is that movies depict a
very inaccurate representation of drowning. The movies would have you believe
that drowning is a violent and noisy event when in reality it is an
inconspicuous and silent event. The victim cannot shout or call for help when
they are struggling to keep their nose above the water level.

Another important lesson I learnt that sometimes when someone is rescued from
drowning, they are at the risk of secondary drowning which can occur during
sleep after the accident. Especially, if a child looks very weak and tired
after a drowning accident, it is important to keep the child under medical
care for the next 24 hours. Never take the risk of the taking the child back
home in such a case.

~~~
JdeBP
An important lesson to learn in general is that television and movies depict
very inaccurate representations _of everything_.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Including _sounds_ , which are almost universally added to the footage in a
separate processing stage, and have no relation to what has actually happened
on the stage itself.

~~~
grawprog
Hence why every bird of prey ever shown in any movie ever has the call of a
red tailed hawk.

~~~
fenwick67
And every jungle is full of kookaburras

~~~
retsibsi
Hah, have you got an example of this one? It's a very distinctive sound so it
would be hilarious to hear it over a shot of some obviously non-Australian
jungle.

~~~
fenwick67
This is so common it's on TVTropes:

[https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JunglesSoundLike...](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JunglesSoundLikeKookaburras)

~~~
retsibsi
Wow, thanks. I'm not big on TV/movies but I'm surprised I missed this one
completely.

------
sequoia
In Toronto, children are tested for swimming ability at _each visit_ to a
public pool. Children are given wrist-bands corresponding to their age upon
arrival. If a child wishes to swim in the deep end, he or she may ask a guard
to give them a swim test (swimming a fixed distance without touching floor or
wall). Upon passing the test, the child is given _another_ wrist-band
indicating that they may use the deep end. Parent:child ratios are also
strictly enforced for younger children.

[https://www.toronto.ca/explore-enjoy/recreation/swimming-
spl...](https://www.toronto.ca/explore-enjoy/recreation/swimming-splash-
pads/drop-in-swimming/) (see "Important Information")

The presence of children with no swimming ability in the deep end of a crowded
pool in this video seems like an obvious recipe for disaster.

edit: toys and floats _are_ allowed in Toronto public pools, the kids have
quite a lot of fun with them.

~~~
rtkwe
Wow I think the only time I've ever had a pool give me a swim test was for Boy
Scouts summer camp where it's 75 yards front stroke 25 yards backstroke and
then float. Then you get a little tag you place on a board and you always have
a swim partner with periodic checks where everyone gets out finds their
partner and they count pairs to ensure no one's missing or without a partner.

------
chrismeller
All in all after watching several of their videos I feel like I do a good job
of recognizing the drowning person, but I’m amazed at how quickly the
lifeguards spot it and dive into action.

Even knowing that in this short clip there is absolutely someone drowning I
still have doubt, but the lifeguard who doesn’t have that context is already
half way to the person by the time I’m sure.

~~~
JshWright
The guards actually have a lot more context. They have been watching the
people in the pool and have mentally sorted them by how much attention they
need.

They have also been staring at the same pool for hours and their brain is
ignoring all the visual noise that is distracting you. They also have the
benefit of stereo vision and sound.

~~~
laumars
I agree with your general point but I think some of the assumptions you've
made aren't quite accurate:

> _They have also been staring at the same pool for hours and their brain is
> ignoring all the visual noise that is distracting you._

I'd suspect mental fatigue would counteract any benefits you'd get from
increased filtering. Which, I assume, is why life guards are generally rotated
regularly.

> _They also have the benefit of stereo vision and sound._

Sound might not be of much help here because drowning is usually something
that happens quietly (as the linked site also explains).

~~~
JshWright
I meant "hours" cumulatively, so their brain is ignoring all the background
stuff that is competing for our attention in these short clips because it's
all novel stimulation to us.

Drownings in progress are often quiet, but that doesn't mean there aren't
useful audio cues (splashing that stops, a kid who is no longer laughing or
shouting, etc)

~~~
laumars
Two very fair points :)

------
sys32768
I never got to properly thank the 15-yo lifeguard who saved my 7-yo from
certain drowning in a crowded artificial lake pool.

We turned away for what only seemed a minute and he was going under. He was
slightly blue in the face when the life guard brought him out.

The weird thing is he didn't fight or flail. He just sort of faded away into
the water, and it struck me as especially weird that he didn't seemed scared
at all after.

It has haunted me ever since just how easy it can be for a child to drown.
Many swim lessons for my child later, I still watch him like a hawk and insist
on life jackets in any moving water conditions.

Bondi Rescue, a series on Netflix about a team of Australian lifeguards, is
instructive and entertaining.

~~~
quickthrower2
I am curious, hope this is OK to ask as I have a 7 yr old...

How would you rater you 7-yo swimming ability when this happened? For example
could he swim 20 meters (~60 ft)?

Also I might watch that Netflix thanks. I don't go to Bondi much but Manly
beach a few km away is interesting. They are always yelling at people who are
swimming in the dangerous current area and it takes several whistles to get
them out. I usually give 'em a gentle yell too if I am there on a surf board
:-)

~~~
chillacy
I almost drowned in one of these wave pools as a teenager and I had been
swimming every summer in swim camps (so a decent swimmer).

In my case it was because there were so many people in the pool that I could
barely move, after struggling to breathe a few moments I had to exert myself
to climb up someone else's inner tube to gain my breath. But I do recall
spending most of my time barely above water and struggling to breathe. Could
have gone very bad.

------
japhyr
> Parents – children playing in the water make noise. When they get quiet, you
> get to them and find out why.

If you're a new parent and haven't heard this advice before, this is one of
the key takeaways. It also applies any time young kids are playing out of
sight. If your kid is in their room and it gets quiet longer than usual, it's
a good idea to go peek in on them.

~~~
opwieurposiu
If my 3yo goes into the bathroom and gets quiet, 9/10 he is making
toothpaste/shampoo/toilet paper art all over the floor.

------
mjlee
Drowning Doesn’t Look Like Drowning [1] has gone round the internet a number
of times over the last decade. Well worth reading if you spend time around
water, and a good read in any case.

[1]
[https://mariovittone.com/2010/05/154/](https://mariovittone.com/2010/05/154/)

~~~
bmgxyz
Thanks for this. I hadn't read it before, and it's quite interesting. In
particular:

> One way to be sure? Ask them, “Are you alright?” If they can answer at all –
> they probably are.

When I was a kid, I spent a few summers learning to sail. Part of our training
included responding to falling overboard or capsizing our small boats with
crews of two. Our instructors insisted that whenever this happened we first
call out to each other, "Are you okay?" and confirm it before attempting to
right the boat. I never understood why, but now I do.

~~~
MS90
I remember watching the Discovery channel series BUD/S 234 about SEAL
training, it stuck out to me that during their swimming test where they're
required to swim an entire lap of the pool underwater that the first thing
they're required to do when they come up is yell "I FEEL FINE" as loud as they
can.

Anyone who didn't do so was instantly hauled out of the pool and sent to the
medic. Which was good, because some of the men were unconscious when they got
there, though they still passed the test! The requirements were to swim down,
touch the far wall, swim back, touch the near wall, all while remaining
underwater. State of consciousness was never specified :)

------
wycy
It seems like spotting drowning children could be a good use case for computer
vision, at least as a backup. The heuristics for a drowning child are pretty
marked, but they're hard to spot for humans distracted by lots of other
stimuli.

~~~
Jaruzel
But who would you sue if the computer vision didn't spot your child drowning?

~~~
zentiggr
I think the more likely scenario is who wouldn't you sue?

Even the camera manufacturer wouldn't be immune from defending themselves.

Welcome to America.

~~~
keanzu
You wouldn't sue yourself as the parent/guardian of the child - you look
around for someone, anyone to blame.

When I took a 5yo to a pool which had multiple lifeguards I put her in a
lifejacket and stayed within arm's reach of her. Playing in a pool is great
fun but it is very high stakes. No way I am going to leave a child in such a
dangerous situation and hope it works out. Making sure your child survives a
trip to a pool is your responsibility.

------
_ph_
I am impressed by these videos any time the pop up on hacker news. But one
thing struck me: that they are using those large floatation rings. A lot of
the incidents seem to be where a child looses contact to the ring and then
cannot swim on itself. I am wondering, why they are allowed at all. In my
personal experience, I have rarely seen such rings in public pools and that
basically means, you are not getting far into the deep part of the pool
without some basic swimming skills. Most people/children wouldn't even try as
they don't feel comfortable with deep water without an aid.

~~~
Nasrudith
Part of the reason for floatation devices is a transitionary measure to get
them more used to and practiced in "preswimming" while participating and not
simply wading or pool side clinging.

They are just often misused - you are supposed to be supervising them when
they are in the pool period and they only need deep enough water to keep their
feet off the ground.

~~~
falcolas
Personal opinion, based off my own experience and teaching other children how
to swim:

Flotation devices have no part to play in teaching how to swim. Parents (or
teachers) holding their children and teaching them how to float is step 1.
Only after the child can handle themselves in water (float, know when to
breathe) should they be playing with flotation devices.

~~~
alistairSH
We should clarify that PFDs (life-jackets) are probably good for young
children and new swimmers. It's the floating toys that might actually be
harmful.

And one skill that swimmers need, but cannot really get with an float-assist
device, is putting their face in the water. I watched an adult friend learn to
swim, and this was REALLY hard for him. Crazy enough - he was ex-Royal Navy
submariner, so he had passed basic water survival - he could float on his
back, just couldn't do anything beyond that.

~~~
keanzu
> cannot really get with an float-assist device, is putting their face in the
> water.

We used kickboards for this exact purpose. So you can float face down with
arms outstretched holding the board. You can transition to freestyle swimming
taking one hand off the board at a time.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM3z1eDDcGE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM3z1eDDcGE)

~~~
AstralStorm
So it was practised for teaching swimming here in Poland at schools, but these
are always in a very shallow pool and supervised too.

They lack the failure mode of floating face down in water, but instead are
unsafe to others who can be hit with them. And kids will collide.

The newer foam ones are much softer and safer.

------
iamthepieman
My kids wear type III PFD's until they pass their level 3 swim class. If I am
swimming actively with them in close proximity they may go without. If I'm on
the shore/side of the pool though, they have their PFD on. Armbands and toy
flotation rings are not safety devices. Although me and my family love the
water in all forms, going to the pool, lake or ocean is always a little
stressful for me. I cannot have a thoughtful discussion with someone while my
kids are swimming as my head is always on a swivel and my attention is 95% on
the water. I will call my kids in periodically so I can take a break from the
constant attention required. We do most of our swimming at lakes and ponds. At
the pool, I will allow myself a little less focus since there are lifeguards.
Fortunately I only have one left that needs to pass her level 3's.

~~~
chrisgd
Always on a swivel! It is so stressful.

------
philshem
Rates of drowning in Europe[0][1] vary by more than an order of magnitude. I'd
be curious about compulsory swimming lessons in schools, as is done here in
Switzerland[2], and its correlation to the rate of drowning.

[0] [https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-
news/-/D...](https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-
news/-/DDN-20190809-1)

[1] [http://78.136.22.110/europe/info/switzerland/switzerland-
dro...](http://78.136.22.110/europe/info/switzerland/switzerland-drowning.pdf)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swimming_lessons#Switzerland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swimming_lessons#Switzerland)

~~~
AllegedAlec
Netherlands reporting in: swimming lessons are spread over three competency
group, and as far as I know, nearly all primary schools take time in the
curriculum to do at least the first two competency levels before the pupils
turn 7 or 8.

~~~
philshem
Thanks for your answer. I posted my question to the open data stack exchange
site[0]. If there isn't an existing dataset, maybe we can create one country
by country.

[0]
[https://opendata.stackexchange.com/q/16182/1511](https://opendata.stackexchange.com/q/16182/1511)

~~~
AllegedAlec
Some data on the netherlands from 2014:
[https://www.scp.nl/dsresource?objectid=6185de0a-e909-4202-99...](https://www.scp.nl/dsresource?objectid=6185de0a-e909-4202-99d2-82bd64cdf2aa&type=org&&)

~~~
wichert
Interesting - that data does not quite match my experience; I was expecting a
larger percentage to have B or C level diplomas. I wonder if that is due to
region (more water and lakes on the west and north), (ethnic) background or
something else.

~~~
AllegedAlec
Age and ethnic background, I think.

------
HenryBemis
To all parents out there, it takes 10 seconds for a toddler to drown. Once in
the water, if they go under, they tend to get disoriented and don't know where
is up or down.

When you are with your kids near a swimming pool or the sea, keep your eyes
glued on them.

My rule is "never break line of sight" (I borrowed the term from Assassin's
Creed where if you break line of sights from the guards chasing you for a few
seconds, their aggro switches off).

Line of sight. When near water opt in for a nice podcast/audio book and keep
your eyes on your kids. A lifeguard is scanning the scene but on a 50 kids,
you are most likely to spot something like this faster/sooner. Also while
looking at your kids, you automatically scan/cover an area of 10-15sqm.

~~~
throwaway744678
I can only strongly confirm this: last summer, my 2.5 years old boy fell in a
(private) swimming pool while playing around it. Of the 4 adults that were
around the pool (less than 3 meters away), only one saw him and could get him
back safely. We could not hear a single noise, no cries, no water splashes...

Although he was wearing those kids armbands, they were useless as they were
keeping his head underwater (he fell head first).

The whole thing took less than 5 seconds, but it was really frightening in
retrospect.

Do not break line of sight.

~~~
epx
Happened with me once and my kid was 8 or 9 already. 10 seconds not looking
and he was already drowning on the deep part of the pool (where he was told
not to go).

------
Insanity
I could spot a few - but was faster than the lifeguard only once. (Well,
before they came into view, considering the time it took before they came into
view I was probably slower).

It'd be a lot harder in real life, when you don't know if there's going to be
a drowning kid.. being prepared is half the game.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
It's easier in real life because nobody just jumps in the deep end and starts
drowning. When you're doing nothing but watching the pool you notice who is
and isn't a strong swimmer and focus your attention on the kids who look like
they're a higher risk. Also when you do it all day you get good. Most people
who are struggling will know it and make it to the side of the pool with no
issues so you get a lot of experience identifying what "not drowning but might
soon" looks like.

~~~
chii
you can drown even if youre a strong swimmer. a cramp in your feet/abdomen can
cause you to drown.

~~~
keanzu
I've had severe cramps in my legs/feet many times in deep ocean water with no-
one around. If you drown from a foot cramp you are not a strong swimmer.

~~~
AstralStorm
Or you're incorrectly trained. You should always be able to flip and float on
your back if push comes to shove, and in that position you can swim just using
your arms.

~~~
matthewowen
"incorrectly trained" is what people typically mean when they say "not a
strong swimmer". anyone who has swum alongside 10 year olds on swim teams will
understand that you can swim quite strongly even without being "strong" in the
muscular sense.

~~~
keanzu
Exactly it isn't physical strength. A strong swimmer is someone who removes
"drowning" from the list of options as long as they remain _conscious_. This
is a critical point when boating - friends have asked why I always wear a
lifejacket when on a small boat; as a strong swimmer surely I have no need of
one. In a boating accident the "conscious" part isn't guaranteed. Get hit by
the boom and go overboard and you are going to need that lifejacket.

------
quickthrower2
Discussion from 2015:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9962185](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9962185)

~~~
dang
Related, from 2018:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17170593](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17170593)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16978769](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16978769)

2016:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11667755](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11667755)

2015:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9947237](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9947237)

2010:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1492835](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1492835)

------
m463
I was talking to a friend, and mentioned it's probably a good idea not to have
a swimming pool, because it's one of the top ways kids die accidentally.

However she said kids don't usually die in their pool, they die in their
grandparents pool.

food for thought.

~~~
TheKarateKid
As someone who grew up with a pool, it made sure that everyone in my immediate
family was well trained on how to swim. It's usually guests that visit who
have the biggest risk of drowning in your pool.

------
mimimi31
Why are there so many people in the deep end of the pool who don't know how to
swim properly? Looking at some of the videos, it seems like the majority can't
do a breaststroke and drowns if they can't dog paddle to anything buoyant
within a few seconds.

~~~
rtkwe
Because public pools can't administer a swimming competency test to every one
who shows up to swim and people underestimate just how bad they are and how
quickly they go from fine to fucked.

------
sq_
Things like this give me _so_ much respect for lifeguards, especially ocean
lifeguards.

Being a lifeguard in a pool is clearly tough enough; being in charge of a
stretch of sand with people moving in and out constantly has to be absolutely
insane. Especially since a kid could run in, get smashed by a wave, and be
underwater in the time you spent glancing down the beach the other way.

~~~
dmos62
In beaches, I think often lifeguards rely upon being summoned and being able
to get there quickly (beach vehicles). That's in case s/he has to cover
kilometers of sand. Of course in such cases a lifeguard can't help with the
Instictive Drowning Response: as the article points out, if you're affected by
IDR you can hold out only 20-60 seconds.

~~~
ben7799
Those are often places that aren't really fully staffed.

If the place is fully staffed and well managed the beach vehicles shouldn't be
needed cause the lifeguards should be close enough to not need them. Most
places I've seen ATVs in use the ATVs were being used by volunteers who were
not lifeguards but watch the beach and call the coast guard/lifeguards on the
phone if there is an emergency. The main beach I see this at is ultra
dangerous with cold water, dangerous undertows, thousands of harbor seals in
the water, and now has occasional great white sharks hunting the seals!

Making a beach safe enough requires a lot of well trained lifeguards. Not many
beaches are ever staffed like that.

If it's dangerous enough some of the guards might need to be in the water on
personal watercraft. Usually I've only seen this in super dangerous surfing
locations though.

A full lifeguard training program also typically contains training on using a
rescue board which is basically like a surfboard and can be super useful in
ocean surf.

Baywatch was always super funny.. they carried Rescue Buoys which were near
obsolete in favor of Rescue Tubes by the 90s. (The rescue tube is flexible and
can be clipped into a circle once you reach the victim.) But the scenes on
Baywatch would have realistically often have been done with both a rescue buoy
+ a rescue board.

Ocean surf is super dangerous, water temps can be dangerous at the ocean. Then
in some places you've got sharks, jellyfish, coral reefs.

It's super intimidating compared to working a pool.

------
saagarjha
I was able to consistently identify the drowning child faster than the
lifeguard fairly easily, but it did require a significant amount of
concentration (I'm sure it helped that I knew that I was supposed to look for
someone in trouble). I'm not sure if I could pay that much attention for a
long period of time…

------
Zenst
This is brilliant and one of those things that should be in all schools etc as
it is an education in observation awareness that holds well in many walks of
life.

I speak as somebody who trained to be a lifeguard in the UK - taking the
bronze medallion #1 and whilst in intensive and in depth (having to know the
four chambers of the heart as well as full CPR...) course with lots of
practical exam parts, awareness that this gives you is something you can not
learn from books and is hard to roleplay.

#1
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Medallion_(United_Kingd...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Medallion_\(United_Kingdom\))

------
Munksgaard
How come no one has commented on the fact that most of these videos include
someone falling off an inflatable ring in the "deep end" of the pool while
having virtually no swimming skills. It seems like a no-brainer to me that
it's a bad idea to float out on a ring if you can't swim. Is that really
common?

------
yourapostasy
While there are many machine learning-based drowning detection systems out
there, I'm having a hard time finding solid information comparing their
reaction time and accuracy rates to lifeguards. Does anyone have any solid
research that they've found?

I don't want to replace lifeguards or increase their workload by spreading
them thinner, but want to find out if we complement them together whether or
not it would _increase_ detection rates and lives saved. However, if the
current state of the art performs abysmally compared to lifeguards, then I
have doubt whether or not they can be combined for improved outcomes.

[1]
[https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=machine...](https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=machine+learning+spot+drowning&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8)

~~~
wearcam
There seems to be two broad categories of products: those for pools and those
for beaches.

Here's a shortlist of systems for pools: Coral Manta, SwimEye, Mobotix, Axis,
AngelEye, Argusmatik, Poseidon, Zwembadcamera, Optoswim, Dipsee A.I., and
Lynxight Deep Vision.

For beaches there's: Milestone, Coastalcoms, etc., and two of the above
companies also do beaches: Dipsee A. I., and Lynxight Deep Vision.

------
huffmsa
Looks like it give you a different video each time.

Lifeguarded during high school. It's hard, even in a small pool.

------
wjnc
How are things related to swimming education in different countries? In the
Netherlands swimming lessons are a pretty basic parental 'requirement'. Former
decades had school swimming, but that fell out of grace due to costs and
liability issues. I've been taking my sons for lessons for what feels like
ages already (about 1.5 years weekly, now twice a week, with about max. a year
to go). At that point they are pretty good swimmers, even fully clothed
including jackets and it's my responsibility to keep practicing. How is that
internationally? It feels quite irresponsible to take children without
training to swimming pools, but that might my local customs focus. Swimming is
a hard technique to master though.

------
bane
There's a youtube channel of these videos:
[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnERyC7dwJwTvEyzYz6uxHw](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnERyC7dwJwTvEyzYz6uxHw)

For those not deeply familiar with U.S. structural issues regarding race, a
random viewing of the video will show the unfortunately, the victim/rescued
person is likely to be African-American. The reasons for this are complex and
sad.

Anecdotally, as a child, my family wasn't well off (and at least once
homeless), and for a while lived in a lower class urban neighborhood that just
happened to have a nice public pool. However, I know that my swimming
education started as a toddler with my mother taking me to the local
recreation center for early swim classes. Later when I was maybe 6 or 7 my
older brother, a champion high school swimmer, further reinforced this until I
was very comfortable in the water and had no problems even at the bottom of
the deepest parts of the pool. All through my early, middle and high school
years I had countless opportunities to swim, and to learn new skills around
water. When I was 17 I could easily complete a mile-long endurance swim, or
pull a bucket of rocks 20 feet up off the bottom of a pitch black lake.

My African-American friends, starting way back at that housing complex, had no
such similar experience. I remember long summer days with my friends teaching
our black friends to swim so we could have more fun in the pool as a group. As
children, it wasn't entirely unusual that one of us kids couldn't swim, as
maybe their parents just hadn't gotten around to teaching them, so we took it
upon ourselves -- never really noticing the pattern that _only_ our black
friends hadn't learned to swim yet. What we didn't understand is that most of
their parents would _never_ teach them, as many of them in fact couldn't swim
either or discouraged it for various reasons -- creating a generational
problem.

Now, older, I've come to see and understand the sadness of the situation and
hope it continues to be addressed in a more systematic way.

Please, if you can't swim, learn to. Teach your children or have your children
taught. Water sports are tons of fun, but your safety is mostly on your
ability to swim.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjC2Ucpr__E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjC2Ucpr__E)

[https://www.ymca.net/summer-buzz/highest-risk-for-
drowning](https://www.ymca.net/summer-buzz/highest-risk-for-drowning)

[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-
canada-11172054](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-11172054)

~~~
ben7799
This is a great response. When I was a Water Safety Instructor I spent part of
my time teaching at a special inner city program that was designed to try and
counteract the disadvantages you are discussing.

Another place I worked was in a very privileged town at a very large country
club. They did a lot of corporate events where the pool was hired out by a
company for their party. We would never get through corporate events without
multiple rescues if the company had a lot of employees who lived in the city
without access to pools & swim lessons.

------
arthurcolle
I almost drowned when I was pretty young (I wanna say 6 years old) might be
older though but not by much, when we went on a pool trip when I was in day
care or something, can’t really remember what grade you’re in at age six. I
went to a deeper end and wasn’t able to grab the edge to pull myself up.

A girl a few years older than I was was able to swim across and push me up. I
remember there were two “chaperones” who were just a few feet away from the
edge of the pool but they were both facing away.

Terrifying experience, still remember it vividly. Parents kind of laughed it
off but I definitely could have died. Definitely teach your kids to swim
properly before letting them go to a pool unsupervised is all I’ll say.

------
rendall
Something in the embed code prevents the "allow full screen" from working
properly, so the video is tiny and scrunched up into the upper left hand
corner. When I watched this on YouTube, with full screen enabled, I spotted
the poor little fellow within about 5 seconds. This is using the latest chrome
(v80.0.3987.132)

This worked, though:

    
    
      <iframe id="player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" title="YouTube video player" width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/T5mDQeDkca0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe>

~~~
chrismeller
In Safari on mobile you have the opposite problem - it’s too large for the
display and there’s no way to make it smaller (or full screen).

I kind of assumed that was intentional, since the lifeguard can’t make it full
screen or zoom in either. :)

~~~
xenocratus
... for them it is already full screen and way better resolution

------
w-m
The first one I got was #26
([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuAfTA2wf7o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuAfTA2wf7o))
and I find it quite hard to detect. Just next to the drowning child, there are
a few others splashing around, which looks nearly identical. Could a machine
make the distinction reliably?

Also interesting to note that there are many people really close by who do not
notice the drowning, but spring into action to help once the lifeguard jumped.

~~~
saagarjha
The things that gave it away for me are the head being really close to the
waterline and desperate-looking, rapid flapping by the arms to try to stay
above the water. Disclaimer: not a lifeguard, this might not actually be
valid.

------
sebringj
Oh, I thought they were going to use me as a mechanical turk to train an
AI...seems like a good idea...could have camera-based lifeguards that dispatch
lil' float rescue drones.

------
mosselman
Jesus, looking at this and reading a few of the comments has me well scared of
the dangers of water again. Good reminder, but always chilling.

~~~
keanzu
A healthy respect for pools is an excellent idea. There are few activities a
child might reasonably engage in where it could go so wrong it might end up in
their death. Swimming is one.

------
sizzle
This seems like the perfect exercise for computer vision and machine
learning/AI to rapidly alert the lifeguard to the drowning child or deploy
some sort of scuba robot flotation device that can get to the drowning person
before a lifeguard to shave off precious second that can cause brain damage
from deoxygenation.

~~~
mark-r
A flotation device isn't enough, often a drowning person doesn't have enough
awareness or body control to grab it. You need someone who can grab the victim
and pull them out of the water.

------
pmarreck
Wow.

OK, what the hell is a kid doing in the deep end who cannot f __*ing swim? A
large flotation ring is NOT a life preservation device!

------
bias_var
I believe this is where tech can be used as a tool to alert the lifeguards. I
am seriously exploring building a real time video monitoring tool to alert
potential drowning risks. I have the tech chops (video processing + image
detection) and would be happy to collaborate if someone wants to join.

------
cranekam
Very good podcast about drowning: [https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-stuff-
you-should-know-269...](https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-stuff-you-should-
know-26940277/episode/how-drowning-works-29467262/)

------
annoyingnoob
I once told a Life Guard at a public water park that his job is hard, that I
can't even keep track of my own kids let alone all of them. He laughed at me.
I still think its a lot of responsibility and hard to track everyone.

------
kempbellt
After a couple of videos I quickly trained my eye to notice specific splash
patterns peripherally and was able to spot it immediately in the rest of the
videos.

Seems like it would make an interesting CV/ML project

------
amitry
Any thoughts/experience with systems like the Coral Manta 3000?
[https://coraldrowningdetection.com/](https://coraldrowningdetection.com/)

~~~
lucb1e
In the videos from the "article", the pool guard jumped in while the person is
still trying to get above the water. They never lose consciousness and get
away with a scare.

This system is "trained to detect people under-water" and in the demo it only
starts beeping after about 6 seconds of no movement while the person is on the
bottom of the pool. So the person first has to get exhausted, sink, stop
moving, and then the system catches on that something is wrong. I guess if you
get oxygen into the person fast enough, they can make a full recovery, but in
the context of a pool this should _not_ replace lifeguards. At home, this is
better than nothing, though I wonder if actual (near-)drownings would go up or
down because of the sense of security.

Edit: the About page confirms it:

> Without air in your lungs, your body sinks [...] For children, irreversible
> damage to the brain tissues typically starts to occur after about 4-5
> minutes without oxygen, (for adults it is after about 3-4 minutes). $product
> detects when a person sinks, meaning seconds after she or he stopped
> breathing

Detecting people that have gotten lungs full of water and are unconscious at
the bottom of a pool is better than not detecting that, but it doesn't sound
like pool guard or proper parenting can be replaced just yet, even if it might
be a helpful last-resort aid.

~~~
amitry
Thanks. Yes, I was thinking of the Coral as a backup in the residential use
case.

------
parentology
So tragic. In college a group of friends were at the beach when one of them
started drowning. Everyone thought he was fooling around, but by the time they
realized the truth it was too late.

------
ericjang
I'm a ML researcher: if you have video data/footage for this "spot the
drowning child", I'd be interested in helping build a ML system for detecting
this.

------
SubiculumCode
This was really really informative. I realized my eyes were totally looking
for the wrong thing, and also spent too much time looking at swimmers who were
swimming under water..

------
downerending
If you haven't seen this, read it. Really.
[http://drownproofing.com/](http://drownproofing.com/)

Every kid should be taught this.

------
dr_dshiv
In the Netherlands, children learn early to swim _in their clothes and shoes_
because of the risk of falling in a canal.

~~~
orion_uranus
Yep. For anyone curious: "Diploma A" can be started at age 4. The requirements
to finish the exam are:

    
    
      - Swimming with clothes on after an unexpected fall into the water, able to orient themselves above water and leave the water independently.
      - Enter the water in different ways, can orient themselves and proceed to swim through something.
      - Can use one or more of the 4 basic strokes (breaststroke, single backstroke, front crawl, back crawl) to swim a base distance
      - Can float on his back and stomach. Feels confident in the water.
      - Can do water steps(?) with arms and legs, can turn and orient themselves.
    

The clothing required are:

    
    
      - Bath clothes
      - Shirt/Crew neck with long sleeves
      - Long pants, dress or skirt (reaches the ankle)
      - Shoes (plastic/leather/sports)
    

Source:
[https://www.allesoverzwemles.nl/diploma-a/](https://www.allesoverzwemles.nl/diploma-a/)

Diploma A is the first of the three diplomas (ABC). If you have all of those
you meet the national swimming safety standard.

More reading: [https://www.allesoverzwemles.nl/nationale-
zwemdiplomas/zwem-...](https://www.allesoverzwemles.nl/nationale-
zwemdiplomas/zwem-abc/)

------
nileshspatel
Is there active AI research ongoing to identify such at risk individuals in
crowded pool from real time Video monitoring

------
scoutt
Very interesting!

In addition to what I saw in the videos, it could be interesting to learn how
to spot the drowning person because it went unconscious or because of a cramp,
etc.

------
a0zU
God Damnit, now I really want that domain.

------
mmhsieh
using 2x rings is unstable and can also cause drowning; flipping upside down
while on a ring can also do it.

------
johnwangdoe
Can computer vision be applied to this?

------
ropiwqefjnpoa
the kid drowned under my watch, but i'm not a trained life guard so that's
expected.

------
kentosi
Can we please update the title with "2015" ?

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9962185](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9962185)

~~~
Someone1234
Why? Typically you age an article to contextualize it (sometimes REALLY
important). In this case it is an interactive educational tool, the age hasn't
changed its purpose, value, or usage.

~~~
clarry
Because someone seeing the title might want to know if it's something new or
the same thing they saw three years ago.

(Sometimes, new things pop up under a title that has been seen before)

------
ratsimihah
Can we do that with coronavirus?

------
oauea
Why is there no progress bar? Do you really expect me to sit through several
minutes of video of nothing happening just to prove a point?

Finally I saw the child go down, so I wanted to rewind a few seconds to see
what happened there. Nope, not allowed!

~~~
keanzu
The videos are on Youtube, you can click the Youtube logo in the bottom right
and gain full control.

The site has an overlay where you can click on the drowning person and find
out if you were correct. Hence the other controls are hidden.

------
tiborsaas
What's the point of this? Should I be surprised that I do a poor job at
watching a camera footage compared to a person being present there with all
sensory inputs, context, trained to spot drowning people?

~~~
rtkwe
It shows what actually drowning looks like which is quiet and very predictable
movements that don't match how most people expect it to look from movies/tv.

~~~
tiborsaas
Then I think this page does a poor job and overly dramatic. It took me 4
attempts to see the popover text box.

------
cafebabbe
So many of them don't have arm bands? It's borderline criminal to allow
untrained kids in a pool without wearing those.

~~~
panadan
Despite their popularity, swimming experts advise against using inflatable
armbands. Although they can help a child to float, they can slip off and lead
to drowning. Inflatable armbands do not prevent drowning, nor are they a life-
saving device. Mistaking them for one can create a dangerous false sense of
security. Additionally, inflatable armbands teach children to float in a
vertical position, which is incorrect because swimming is usually done in a
prone position. Children who wear armbands can become dependent on them, as
well.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflatable_armbands](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflatable_armbands)

~~~
mcv
They're a temporary measure; they make sure that a child that goes under,
quickly comes up again. But a parent still needs to be nearby and paying
attention. Never let a child without swimming diploma swim without nearby
supervision. (This should be blindingly obvious.)

Of course once they start swimming lessons, they practice without armbands.

------
rezeroed
This is choreographed - I don't think the comments on reactions vs lifeguard
reactions mean much.

~~~
saagarjha
They don't look very choreographed…

~~~
rezeroed
They do.

