

Reddit is a failed state - kanamekun
http://www.theverge.com/2014/9/8/6121363/reddit-is-a-failed-state

======
noname123
Tbh, I found the Washington Post profile of the moderator of /r/TheFappening
to be even more fascinating. johnmcjohn frequented asexuality and Asperger
forums and voiced his frustration, and detailed his financial troubles and
professional failures on LinkedIn and begged for money from strangers on
Reddit and also moderated and advised users on /r/cocaine on how to obtain and
use cocaine. "It's odd that a man with self-diagnosed asexuality created a
forum as a trove of naked celebrity photos."

The degree of detail of personal information that we post online if someone
resourceful enough like a reporter at WashPo can gather on ourselves, both our
public or pseudo-anonymous personas truly reveal everything about our
professional, psychological, financial and personal lives.

Recently, two events happened to me where I was confronted with IRL with what
I said online which I thought was anonymous. I felt really uncomfortable
initially because I felt simultaneously really rude to the people who have
read my comments because it was my pure unadulterated thoughts without any
real life filter; and exposed because there are honest thoughts of mine like
stream-of-conscious thoughts that I'd never express in public to communicate
to someone else, kind of like Jimmy Carter who answered "Yes, in my thoughts"
to the question of "Have you ever cheated on your wife."

Going back to the main topic of discussion, if I was exposed to the core by
WashPo, I'd be no better johnmcjohn. But like johnmcjohn who made his profile
public again on Twitter because "there is nothing to hide," I feel honesty in
all shapes of forms, even if it exposes you as a 33-year old guy with a
questionable personal/professional background who shares celeb nudies is the
way to go.

I post a lot of provocative comments on this forum; the first few times, it
was because I felt arrogant or wanted to attack some of the people-types whom
I disliked in real life online. But after someone replied to one of my comment
and gave a good counter-perspective and made me learn new things and new
perspective. It made me not afraid to be downvoted and keep being honest. I
hope that more confrontations and humiliations come my way, so that I can
learn from them.

~~~
jacquesm
> thoughts that I'd never express in public to communicate to someone else

But you did!

That's sort of the whole point here. So if you do it because you _think_ you
are anonymous (as in your identity is divorced from what you say) but it is
stuff that you'd never express in public then you have essentially crossed one
of your own rules. You shouldn't say/do stuff anonymously that you would not
say/do when you're identified.

~~~
noname123
jacquesm, I respectfully disagree with you. Communication between close
friends is obviously different between communication during job
interview/business negotiation.

Sometimes it is the other way around that our real identity is divorced from
what we have to present in public. There are different personalities who
choose to use different means of communication - I know that preferred mode of
communication on HN is to offer advice/encouragement/feedback to others'
startups and technical/business career paths etc. like at a real life tech
meetup's.

But I gravitate the personalities of people's throwaway confessions of their
burnouts, private frustrations and rants against the industry that quite often
reveal more their personal vulnerabilities (which is universal in the
introvert/geek culture) than technical matters (e.g., michaelochurch).

Other people might take issue or feel personally outraged or just amused. But
I don't use this forum with my real life handle/LinkedIn to build my
"network," but as a way to express personal thoughts and get feedback from
others relating to similar issues - which a lot of people do as well do (e.g.,
keeping a personal journal).

So I think that's where the mismatched expectations comes from.

~~~
jacquesm
Interesting viewpoint, I will have to think this over. Thank you.

------
jacquesm
Reddit comes of smelling less than rosy in this episode. It seems as if it is
ok to post the most intimate details about people as long as they are not
reddit users, then suddenly privacy is really important.

Link-dumps and fora in general could do a lot more to protect the privacy of
victims, there are whole websites dedicated to doing harm to others, usually
people who had absolutely no idea that the innocent picture they took or
allowed to be taken would end up online some day to ruin their lives or cause
them at a minimum great distress.

I've been battling this problem for years, and even 'consenting adults' can
get themselves into a ton of trouble if they do not oversee all the possible
consequences of their actions.

It's the main reason why I've decided to ban all forms of nudity on my
website, even though I personally believe that people should be able to do
whatever they want in the privacy of their own homes, and by extension their
own homes on the net the amount of grief that can come of it nullifies any
positive effects.

Reddit could and should do more to stop abuses like these and hiding behind
the 'free speech' banner when clearly the images distributed were distributed
without the consent and probably even the knowledge of the subjects of the
images is cheap and tone-deaf.

Which is a pity because reddit is one of very few sites on the net that has
very long term potential.

------
IvyMike
There are a lot of assholes on the internet, but in general I'm unwilling to
hastily put limits on freedom of speech, even when those assholes use it to be
assholes.

I am not sure what people are asking for: Do they want reddit to start
censoring more stuff? That can quickly become a slippery slope. Do they want
reddit to break DMCA laws? That's not going to happen. Do they want reddit to
fall on its sword and censor nothing even if it means the demonization of
reddit? Probably a bad idea too.

On another note, I mostly use reddit to read /r/cpp, /r/netsec, /r/Iceland,
/r/hiphopheads, /r/bourbon (and friends), /r/LosAngeles, and a collection of
other interest specific subreddits. I barely noticed the recent shenanigans.
When an article attempts to paint reddit as "being filled with [insert broad
brush here]" I always cringe; any large site cuts across most demographics.
It's filled with the same type of people who use the internet; that is, the
same that are walking around in your city right now. It's filled with
everyone.

~~~
jacquesm
Your freedom of speech is not a right on private websites and a site like
Reddit could _easily_ have curbed this thread without any damage to anybody's
feelings and a significant reduction in the potential harm to the victims of
these hacks.

Imagine a HN thread about how and where you can download pirated copies of
software you wrote or something similar. Do you feel that shutting that down
would inhibit your freedom of speech somehow?

~~~
IvyMike
> Your freedom of speech is not a right on private websites

Do we think that the principle of freedom of speech is a good thing? And if
so, shouldn't we attempt to make it available even in situations in which we
are not compelled by law?

HN takes a very active role in curating discussions, and PG has made it clear
why--HN serves a very specific purpose and needs to be kept on track. Reddit,
on the other hand, seeks to be the "digital commons", and a broad allowance
for speech is appropriate there.

~~~
minikites
So then why does Reddit censor some information:

[http://www.theverge.com/2012/10/16/3514232/reddit-ceo-
yishan...](http://www.theverge.com/2012/10/16/3514232/reddit-ceo-yishan-wong-
leak-memo-violentacrez-doxxing-ban)

> Last week, that very same Gawker unmasked one of Reddit's most unsavory
> trolls, posting his real identity for all to see. Allegedly, it cost
> Violentacrez his job. For Reddit, the stories were serious offenses: the
> site does not permit posting the personal information of its users (aka
> "doxxing"). However, Reddit's moderators took the rules a step further,
> attempting a site-wide ban against the Gawker network, and banning a user
> and even one fellow moderator who spoke out against such practices.

but not take down the private celebrity photos?

~~~
jacquesm
Why is everybody so upset about the celebrity photos in the first place? Far
worse than that happens on reddit 24/7, and the admins do absolutely _nothing_
to protect the victims. But if it is one of 'reddits own' the banhammer can be
brought down hard enough.

~~~
minikites
I agree, but the celebrity photos incident is famous outside of Reddit so it's
a good discussion point to use as a bridge to the other reprehensible sections
of Reddit to someone unfamiliar with Reddit.

------
FatalLogic
Reddit's true corporate philosophy looks simple. These appear to be the 2
immutable laws of Reddit, and everything else follows naturally from them:

1\. Anything goes

2\. Unless it causes immediate and obvious harm to Reddit

I think the mission statements from Reddit's CEO are a torturous attempt to
construct a grand community vision that embodies these laws. He might say it's
the other way around, and the laws grew out of the vision, but I think these
laws are shaped mainly by the economic and business realities of managing a
huge community on an understaffed shoestring.

~~~
jacquesm
They might end up finding out that they violated '2'. The collective ability
of the celebrities involved to sue reddit into the ground should not be under-
estimated. And it is a pity that that is what would set limits on abuses like
this, such limits ought to be set based on what every idiot could see was
unauthorized publication of very private information, rather than that the
financial capabilities of the victims would make the difference.

~~~
broodbucket
I'm not so sure about this. Reddit doesn't host media. I'm not a lawyer, but I
don't think "some people who use their site posted a link to another website,
which has the illegal media" would cause significant damage to Reddit.

~~~
RubyPinch
when it comes to damage-legal-teams-can-cause, I'm always reminded of Sony vs
That-guy-who-cracked-ps3-stuff. apparently they kept calling him at all hours
of the night, of course he had to listen to each call. if he let 1 valid call
go unresponded, then that would be a mark against him.

regardless, the reasons were detailed here:
[http://redd.it/2fpdax](http://redd.it/2fpdax), it was a multitude of issues
and it even surprised some reddit admins

------
adamnemecek
I know I'm repeating what's said every time people complain about the state of
things on Reddit but if you unsubscribe from the defaults and pick smaller
subreddits that really interest you, Reddit is amazing. As in my life would be
noticeably different without it.

~~~
danudey
I agree with this point, in that reddit is a community of communities. The
problem is that some of those communities are dedicated towards causing active
harm to people, and Reddit (the corporation) has an attitude of 'it's not our
problem, so we don't care what they do'. Unfortunately, if that draws legal
teams to bear on Reddit, that could be bad for everyone. And as much as I love
the few communities I'm a member of, I honestly hope it does.

I would rather have reddit shut down than have it become a haven for this sort
of depraved, childish, entitled, antisocial bullshit.

------
SixSigma
Another wonderful misconception.

Reddit _doesn 't host the images_. It is as culpable as Google.

~~~
jacquesm
Google does not host a forum dedicated to spreading nude pictures of
celebrities. If and when google spreads images like that it is because of
automated collection of images, not because of some intent on behalf of a
google registered user to harass private individuals.

There is a huge difference there and if Reddit turns out to have liability I
wouldn't be too surprised.

In that sense they are no better than camcap forums.

~~~
DanBC
> Google does not host a forum dedicated to spreading nude pictures of
> celebrities.

Sure there's no Google Group (not just a Usenet group) dedicated to hosting
such images? Or a Blogger site that does similar?

~~~
jacquesm
If they do exist I suspect it is right up until someone notices or a take-down
request is received. I highly doubt that google would knowingly host such a
forum.

