
Why can't China make a good ballpoint pen? - Doubleguitars
http://www.marketplace.org/2015/12/10/world/why-cant-china-make-good-ballpoint-pen
======
mc32
It's not that they couldn't if they wanted to; they could. But the history of
domestic demand has been for cheap pens --the BICs/Papermates of the world.
Their history of consumer products has been very utilitarian from pens to the
mao jackets and the "iron furnace in every yard"[1] program to bootstrap
industrialization onto a country where it arrived late.

So, the opportunity arrived where they had plenty of available labor and
mature foreign economies which were diverging away from labor intensive low
value added industries and in need of cheaper labor elsewhere and China
availed itself in order to grow away from subsistence farming.

So, in that context the rise of the ubiquitous plastic pen is no surprise. No
reason to deride it (and all it represents, from Christmas kitsch to joss
money); it's what's got them to where they are and allows them to raise the
question.

Now, it seems, they too are nearing an inflection point where more value added
industries, industries which manufacture more value added products are needed
in order to grow the internal consumer market and economy. The new
consumerists, as it were.

I think the officials very well know this but felt the need to embarrass the
industries which got them to the position where they can ask this question.

But Kai just avoids this angle and instead focuses on the "gotcha"
sensationalism the PRC officials lobbed the media.

[1][http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/greatleap.htm](http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/greatleap.htm)

~~~
nroets
I think Mr. Li would consider Bic a good pen. "crappy pen(s) ... leak ink".

There are lot of unbranded pens in the market that stop working even before
the ink inside them are used up. On the other hand, Bic has better pens
because they cannot afford to disappoint customers.

China faces a branding problem, but most markets are saturated and cannot
accommodate another brand.

~~~
mc32
Right, but most Chinese pens work like bics. Most don't explode ink in your
pockets.

After the reconstruction of WWII Japan too had a branding issue. Before wwi
the US had a branding issue. We all have to start somewhere and work our ways
up.

I believe the PRC spokesperson just wanted to embarrass industry in general to
get them to think about improvement and innovation --which is good and well,
but I don't think its couth to bite the hand that fed you. It seemed a bit
ungrateful.

~~~
pheroden
They don't, and this is the problem. They aren't talking designer.

------
danjayh
I think the key point that he's missing is that the chinese manufacturers are
now manufacturing to the market's demand, and this is why China is growing
rich. In the old system, the state may have ordered the (state owned) pen
manufacturer to make a top-quality pen. The manufacturer would have done its
best to comply, but ultimately, would have made a product that nobody wanted.
In the new system, the administration at the pen factory can look at the data
on what sells, and produce that to provide maximum profit to the company and
maximum utility to consumers within the constraints of the factory's
capabilities -- in this case, that means cheap, crappy pens. Importantly,
these pens sell well, turn a profit for the factory, and provide the income
needed to feed, cloth, and house all of its workers.

~~~
lispm
It's hard to believe that in a market with a billion consumers there is not
enough demand for slightly higher goods.

But product quality is not just about the ball of the pen. Product quality is
about the whole product and its place in the environment: labor conditions,
energy production/use, material use, waste treatment, usability, precision,
etc.

~~~
dagw
_It 's hard to believe that in a market with a billion consumers there is not
enough demand for slightly higher goods._

People who want and can afford higher quality goods, can probably also afford
imported goods and the higher status they give.

------
anabis
Ballpoint pens and erasers in the USA also felt rough to me, a Japanese. I
don't know about the other 2 countries mentioned in the article (Germany and
Switzerland), but maybe its the countries culture? Previously posted story of
Hagoromo chalk is another example of Japanese high quality stationery .

~~~
slavik81
My favourite mechanical pencil is the Pentel Side FX, which is apparently
Japanese as well.

~~~
anabis
I use the Uni Jetstream 3 Color Ballpoint Multi Pen - 0.7 mm. I bought several
with different case colors.

------
something2324
I'm going to a bit culturally insensitive, but I've been living in China for
the past 2 months and I'm convinced they have a huge cultural barrier that
makes them absolutely incapable of creating high quality goods.

I was told there is even a Chinese saying that amounts to "the average and not
more"

You can even see this in San Francisco. Go to a chinese restaurant on Clement.
The food will be amazing, but the windows look like they haven't been washed
in years.

One of my friends here is an architect and she told me that her work crews
always say she's OCD. When I actually saw one of her projects I was horrified.
It's like big-picture okay, but all the details are wrong. Things are
misaligned, poured concrete and splashed some on the white wall? who cares!
It's just a smudge, no one will notice.

My friend who coordinates manufacturing here says the only way to get what you
want is to constantly fly in for inspections and yell at manufacturers till
you get what you want (and yes, if you don't yell people don't think you're
being very serious)

While I've spent a bit of time in Japan too, (and I think the cultures are
actually a lot closer than most people appreciate) - when it comes to quality
it's a different planet

~~~
seanmcdirmid
There are definitely places where China over achieves, and food is one of
them. Also, while the architects might have OCD, the migrant construction
workers making 10 Kuai an hour do not...which probably drives the architect to
tears. My wife is a UX designer who has the same problem with low end
developers.

The quality is there, but it can only go as far as the weakest link.

~~~
something2324
Ehhh, I don't buy it's simple a wage/motivation issue

You know cheap immigrant labor in the US also makes squat and they don't do
generally do a shabby job. The issue is that no one is held to a high standard
here. In the US if you do a sloppy job you'll get fired and they'll find
someone who can do it better for the same horrible wage. Here "average" work
is expected an no one really seems to mind (as long as "it gets the job done"
so to speak), and if you expect more then you're a mean boss or OCD or
whatever.

The food is good, why do you care about the windows? The pen clicks and put
ink on paper, what more do you need?

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Immigrant labor in the states isn't paid 10 Kuai an hour, and the American
government isn't so worried about a peasant uprising that they would want to
keep all the low skilled labor particularly busy. To the CCP, however, the
construction industry is just a big jobs program for farmers who can't find
enough work in the country side, hence the heavy use of concrete (easy to work
with) and overbuilt buildings that feel dated just after a few years.

Believe me, people care, but the emphasis on low wages and work that just
passes a low bar drives them crazy. I have to listen about my wife complain
about this every night. I thankfully work for an American company but even
then, things like a reactive approach to facilities maintnence drive me
bonkers. It is simply about wages. If you go to Singapore, or Taiwan, or Hong
Kong, you'll see similar cultures with much better results.

~~~
something2324
Well the first part is very true and the fact that the gov't doesn't really
care about quality (just as long as people are working) probably fuels the
culture of mediocrity, but this really doesn't apply to the private sector
where in a different cultural climate the employers would always demand
excellence. I mean at the end of the day it's sorta understandable b/c you
just have to not be a ton worse than your competitors - and think of the
savings!

I'm sure it's very different from Singapore/Taiwan/HK (though judging by the
lack of attention to detail by immigrants in San Francisco I'll wait to see
for myself), but this is a country of peasants/farmers run by peasants and
farmers. It's going to take a very very long time for the culture to change -
I'm talking several generations - b/c it's the culture of the "weakest-link".
I guess their only blessing is that they have these other places to learn
from.

------
rm445
I put it to you that pens are intrinsically difficult for quality of
production systems. Their nature (portable, lose-able, lend-able, steal-able)
calls out for cheapness and disposability. Their size and ergonomics call out
for precision manufacturing, but the materials must be cheap and plentiful.
The measure of a good pen is often its durability, which is difficult to test
for in production. The purchasing chain is incentivised for cost not quality -
most pens are not bought by their users.

I think this is an almost unbeatable combination - I think we'll be shaking
and scribbling cheap giveaway ballpoints for the forseeable future. Even if
you buy good pens you'll probably be put in this situation in daily life from
time to time, unless you're VERY careful about carrying a good pen everywhere
and never lending it out.

The good news is that they can be used as a kind of bellweather. When cheap
pens are good pens, you'll know a culture of quality has been arrived at in
manufacturing systems for basic products.

------
seanmcdirmid
I buy my pens from Muji, they are made in China and Thailand, mainly, and they
tend to be very good quality (Muji charges at least 8 kuai for a pen, often 20
or 30 kuai). It is simply a matter of you get what you pay for (i.e.
便宜没好货，好货不便宜).

~~~
ci5er
Ha! In Japanese "Muji" ('no mark', literally 'no character') is short for
"Mujirushi Ryohin" ('unbranded goods').

It's odd that someone would take this on as a brand name. And makes me have to
ask: Are you sure that this is a brand name? (It may well be - I just don't
know of it)

So, at the high-end, these are about the same price as a Uniball Vision Roller
or the like (which are made by Mitsubishi Pencil, if I recall correctly. Who
may, in turn, very well have outsourced the manufacture to China - I don't
know).

Your point is that China can make a good pen if someone pays for it? According
to the story, that appears to be the case - but the equipment to manufacture
said pen core must be made by the Swiss which leaks the money/profits to yet
more money-grubbing foreigners. It just takes time to assemble the complete
set of high-end manufacturing tooling. By the time the Chinese have done so, I
can hope that our labor prices will be more equalized, but I'm guessing that
this will not be the case...

~~~
lovemenot
Muji is a well known department store in Japan. The etymology of their brand
is as you say. It goes back to the end of the bubble and a sense that
consumers are weary of excessive branding. The solution: another new brand
called "no brand".

------
cant_kant
Not sure about ballpoint pens, but I bought a fine Montblanc Starwalker
fountain pen clone* for $3, including international delivery from China.

*BAOER 79 Starwalker [http://www.aliexpress.com/item-img/Baoer-79-Black-Crystal-Ca...](http://www.aliexpress.com/item-img/Baoer-79-Black-Crystal-Cap-Starwalker-Style-M-NIb-Fountain-Pen/2048234098.html)

------
n0us
I personally use Uniball Vision fine pens when I can but its convenient to
have a stash of cheap pens lying around that I can take anywhere and possibly
dispose of while not worrying about losing a pen that cost several dollars. I
say keep making the cheap pens, and keep making them better.

------
xingfenzhen
What's the article did not talk about is Gree, the air conditioner company,
actually had a robotics and precision machinery division since 2012 and they
have just unveiled its first products including several industrial robots, a 3
axis CNC machine and a 5 axis CNC machine during a trade show in August of
2015.

She probably saw this as marketing opportunity to upset existing player in the
field. Come to think of it, the ability to make a cheap precision ballpoint
could also to translated to ball bearings, and that has a market orders of
magnitudes bigger than ballpoint pens.

------
ZeroGravitas
I'm kind of suspicious that according to the article the same factory is
making 'bad' pens for China and 'good' pens for export.

I'm no expert on process improvements, but it would generally seem that once
the cost to create the good pens has been spent, it would be relatively cheap
to apply them to both product lines.

Which suggests either they intentionally use cheaper parts (cheaper ink?) on
one line, or they have a sophisticated binning system and can identify the
borderline pens and remove them from the flow going to export and instead send
them to the less demanding domestic market.

~~~
mabcat
The example in the article is that export pens get twice as much QA time (two
test clicks instead of one test click) which involves twice the QA labour cost
as for domestic-market pens. Same components, different process.

More generally I've had products manufactured in China for sale in Australia,
and they certainly had more expensive parts than products assembled on the
same line for sale into China. Never in a million years would the domestic
units have passed certification for sale in Australia. So you just keep
slotting in more expensive, higher-spec parts until the unit's safe and
saleable.

~~~
ZeroGravitas
As I said, I'm no expert, but an extra click in the QA process doesn't seem to
account for domestic pens being of famously bad quality.

They're coming off the same production line, so if an unusual amount of pens
were failing after the second click, then either they bin lots of pens
intended for export and allow lots of broken pens to ship domestically, or
they fix the problem on the line, and both sets of pens get better as a
result.

------
keithpeter
_> > Next, it was the machine tool CEO’s turn. “There are two things that only
Chinese people can make,” explained Guan Xiyou, CEO of Shenyang Machine Tool
Group, “The first is fireworks. The second? Folding fans. Foreigners still
can’t make a good folding fan."<<_

I'd add the humble wooden handled iron/steel wok to the list. The local
Chinese shops have them for about £6 to £7. Look after one (wash promptly, oil
lightly when storing) and it lasts decades.

But I take the point about these being low cost items.

~~~
eyko
I doubt you've used them for decades but yeah, they last long for £6. Usually
the handle will break though (I've gone through 3 of them in the last decade
although they're quite sturdy). The wok itself is still perfect (but then
again, for £10 at most I can get a new one, and I can't be bothered with
fixing the handle.

~~~
keithpeter
OK you are right, 12 years and counting (bought one when I moved in here).
Perhaps we are less emphatic than you in our jiggling of the stir frying veg?

------
altonzheng
For some reason imagined folding fan as some compact mechanically fan that
could be compacted. Then I googled it and turns out it's just a paper fan.
Very disappointed

~~~
ci5er
The ones commonly used in Japan when I lived there a 25-or-so years ago,
weren't paper. There were many kinds, styles, qualities and makes at the (say,
Seibu) department store. During the festivals in July/August (Obon), a lot of
fans being used were a lot more like this:

    
    
      - http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Handheld-Folding-Blossoms-Cascade/dp/B0018GFK1Y
    

That may have changed.

When the mama-san of our local izakaya (a sort of "pub") came back from
holiday in China (or was it Thailand?), she brought back some of this type of
sandal-wood deal as souvenirs:

    
    
      - http://www.amazon.com/Leegoal-Chinese-Sandalwood-Scented-Openwork/dp/B003Y79034
    

I'm guessing that this is probably what is being referred to in the article?

N.B. I'm only using the Amazon product links as exemplars. I do not intend to
implicate the retailer (Amazon, here), the manufacturer or the products in my
adventures of mis-remembering.

------
kbart
_" Companies like Tencent which makes WeChat, a communications app that seems
far ahead of what foreign apps can do"_

What's so special about WeChat? Haven't used it, but interested what _special_
could a chat app do.

~~~
mabcat
Check out [http://a16z.com/2015/08/06/wechat-china-mobile-
first/](http://a16z.com/2015/08/06/wechat-china-mobile-first/) , it was an
interesting perspective shift for me.

------
miander
A decline in low-quality Chinese goods would certainly be a boon for the
environment. The amount of waste plastic from discarded pens alone must be
huge.

~~~
voltagex_
You'll have to get a decline in purchasing first.

~~~
something2324
??? The demand for pens is pretty elastic. If pens all cost $10 then people
would be more careful with them and fewer of them would end up throw away

~~~
voltagex_
If pens cost $10, someone would come out with a $9 pen and the cycle would
start again.

------
jonah
Maybe it's just as well. Ballpoint pens are terrible.

How The Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive:
[http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/08/ballpo...](http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/08/ballpoint-
pens-object-lesson-history-handwriting/402205/)

Discussed earlier this year:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10141874](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10141874)

~~~
civilian
As a lefty, cursive can stay dead.

~~~
voltagex_
Hello fellow lefty. What do you use to write on paper these days? I've got the
last remaining good Bic Reactive pens stashed at work, but I don't think I can
get any more.

~~~
rtpg
I buy boxes of Uni Jetstream 0.5mm (black) pens, they're really great (major
problem being I put them in my pocket so they tend to travel between
bags/desks). just the right feel for my left hand.

[http://www.jetpens.com/Uni-Jetstream-Standard-Ballpoint-
Pen-...](http://www.jetpens.com/Uni-Jetstream-Standard-Ballpoint-Pen-0.5-mm-
Black-Ink-White-Body/pd/3232)

