

Partnering with Microsoft: a cautionary tale. Also, ask HN: contacts at Yahoo? - devhn

Had a negative experience with MS recently.  They were very interested in licensing some code for use in bing and we did a number of presentations to the top of the hierarchy which was extremely time consuming.  In the end there was radio silence so we followed up and didn't hear back, then things were delayed multiple times on their end. It seemed highly unprofessional of the business development lead to string us along because it burns a bridge for future partnership while only gaining a delay of deployment on a competing property.<p>In any case, after following up a number of times, they finally indicated they decided to build it internally instead.   The funny part was through the demos they kept pushing for a source code review which seemed highly premature considering we had nothing signed at that point.  I am glad we didn't hand over the source.  Perhaps I am not in the most objective position, but their implementation is incredibly weak.  There is a build at all costs culture which leads internal teams to build vs buy even when the PMs see the value of buy.<p>In any case, take this story as a cautionary note to pursue parallel paths even if things are very far along on one path and the stakeholders are highly enthusiastic.<p>We have been looking at other major partners and had some success with some; but, for Yahoo we hit a wall of first level routing which seems somewhat impenetrable.  I am not wanting to attack the individuals that man the first level email routing since they are just doing their job, but they don't have a technical understanding of what is being presented--we got replies that completely misunderstood the message more than 4 times in a row--and are only able to route requests as secretary would.  So we were finally directed to http://add.yahoo.com/fast/yahoo/technology/cgi_form which is no doubt a spam honeypot where submissions never reaches the appropriate team or get reviewed in any time sensitive manner.<p>So, I would like to ask if anyone has any contacts within Yahoo, ideally within Yahoo Finance on the development side.  We actually did our usability testing with google / yahoo / x so we have some good data there.<p>Thanks for any help you can offer getting in contact with the right team lead at Yahoo!
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pedalpete
I would recommend getting out of the 'Microsoft burning bridges' mentality. I
don't think it can help you in the long run.

As a start-up we get completely focused on what we're doing and how much
energy it takes. I'm sure there are times you've messed up a contact, didn't
get back to somebody, transfered to a partner who didn't respond, etc. Now put
yourself in their shoes. They have 100x more people trying to get their
attention. Sometimes we don't realize that these larger companies with
multiple levels of bureaucracy.

At the same time, it was very smart of you not to give them our source code
without a contract.

A 'they burned us' mentality won't help you in the long run. You just happened
to make a contact at Microsoft and it didn't work out this time. If I were you
I'd send them a 'thanks, we're here if you need us' response.

They just qualified your market if it wasn't already done.

As mentioned by Zacharycohn, LinkedIn is likely the best resource for finding
contacts. I'd recommend adding your Microsoft contacts to your linkedIn
contacts. That way people may be able to find in association with that
Microsoft group, and you seem to be that much closer.

One last thing, doing anything with the big dogs is likely going to take time.
I hope you aren't putting all your eggs in one big basket. I think it often
helps a bigger company take the plunge if a moderately sized one has done it
already.

Is anybody already using your service? Is there a start-up you could work with
that might give you an added bit of publicity?

Best of luck, Pete

~~~
devhn
Thanks for the insight. Fortunately, this is not core to our offering, it is
really a marketing avenue to have one of the larger sites in the world using
something front and center. Regarding the burning bridges comment, nothing
negative was done on our side, but the level of professionalism was low on
theirs and I don't feel this was just an oversight. We had unreturned emails
at the end. My impression was they were incredibly responsive with immediate
returns at the start, then at some point they decided to build it and
communication stopped. I wouldn't consider it a negative experience if they
had simply said at that time that they were not interested, but they dragged
things out another month which was of little utility. Will be interested to
see if our unique features end up in their offering since the dev team was
pretty excited about certain things. It is fine really, everyone copies
everyone else and our work is derivative too. But it's a little different if
you are seeing something before release. This was not intended as an attack on
MS just to let people know what the experience can be like and most
importantly to get the right contact at Yahoo which it seems like we may have
now!

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rbanffy
The Microsoft part is typical. It's more or less the Stacker/Intuit story with
a different product.

Never, ever, under no circumstances, trust Microsoft.

Also, check if they aren't violating any patent you may have failed to
disclose during the negotiations. If they are, enjoy every minute.

(burn, karma, burn)

------
gacba
_Had a negative experience with MS recently. They were very interested in
licensing some code for use in bing and we did a number of presentations to
the top of the hierarchy which was extremely time consuming. In the end there
was radio silence so we followed up and didn't hear back, then things were
delayed multiple times on their end. It seemed highly unprofessional of the
business development lead to string us along because it burns a bridge for
future partnership while only gaining a delay of deployment on a competing
property._

None of this sounds peculiar for a company as large as Microsoft. The near-
glacial timescales that exist for project management decisions can be daunting
for the unfamiliar or unaware. But glad you didn't hand over the keys without
a contract. Lessons learned.

~~~
rbanffy
The problem is not the near-glacial timeframes. It's using you to gather
requirements and knowledge and to avoid pitfalls and then, after sucking you
dry, building internally.

That's simply not ethical.

(burn, karma, burn)

~~~
ojilles
Not working for MS, etc. But I wonder if this is intentional. I'm sure this is
how it can come across to a startup, but for Big Inc. I doubt they setup these
meetings to "outsource" product management work...

------
zacharycohn
Have you tried searching linkedin for people who might be working on related
projects at Yahoo? Even if you just ping them for contact info for the right
person, could be a way past the wall.

~~~
devhn
Will give that a try. Thanks for the suggestion!

------
chimingin
after all the companies Microsoft has destroyed using this tactic, I'm
surprised anyone even picks up their call. Sure the lure of big bucks is
appealing, but their track record is very clear. This has been their M.O since
the beginning. Just ask Steve Jobs.

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rdj
Seems like a learning opportunity here. Could this have been handled
differently? Maybe something like:

BIGCO asks for info/demo, you oblige. BIGCO is pleased, asks for more
discussions, Q&A, etc. At this point, you present an NDA/Non-compete.

Certainly they could say "no", at which point the outcome is the same as it
was here. Or they say "yes", at which point they have a little more skin in
the game, and you have the law on your side.

I don't know if this is the answer, but it seems like a good discussion.

~~~
devhn
I don't think any BIGCO would go for that since they need to build it out or
buy it one way or the other. That would be nice, but I don't think it is
feasible. Also, regardless of the law, I don't think it would be worth the
cost or time pursuing. In general, the process was okay, the main issue was
the very obvious change in communication half way through the process. If they
launch and fully copy our innovations that will be somewhat annoying but the
cost of doing business. I may post a follow up then if it happens. So far they
haven't done anything nefarious.

------
bkhl
What is this technology that you are trying to partner with search engine
(assuming that it is because you mentioned Bing)? I'm asking this because
Yahoo is going to be integrated into/with Bing soon...so I don't see why you
would want to partner with Yahoo. Well, I don't know what is the product in
the first place.

