
Why I’ll Never Return to Singapore - spinningarrow
http://www.lifelisted.com/blog/happens-everything-goes-right/
======
ghshephard
I've been working in singapore for four months this year, and I'm based out of
Redwood City, California (not really a bastion of culture) but originally from
Vancouver, British Columbia (Canada).

I absolutely understand what the author was writing about - I really love this
country - it's clean, safe, _really_ clean, has really affordable food and
incredible transportation system. The buses are actually worth using, and the
people have been universally friendly. But, there is something missing.

When I go back to Canada, people live to do things outside of work. They go to
the Abbotsford Apple Barn, Hang out at Stanley Park, spend an afternoon in the
Vancouver Library, Head up to Cypress Bowl to go Snowboarding, etc, etc..
Maybe it's because there is more "space" \- but I'm still trying to find out
what it is that people in Singapore do, and why? So often, the answer I get,
is "Go to the Mall" or, "Take my kids to tuition".

The country has accomplished _incredible_ things with so few resources - the
people are the only resources - and they've achieved a level of social and
cultural harmony that really shows how poorly other countries are.

Perhaps I just need to spend a few more years to soak up the local culture and
events - at the very least the hawker stands could keep me occupied that long.

~~~
CaptainZapp
I've only visited for a weekend and was utterly prepared to hate the crap out
of Singapore. We're not up to a good start when your landing card spells out
in bold and red _DEATH TO DRUG TRAFFICKERS_ (a bit more eloquent, but that's
the gist of it).

Reality, however, is not quite as black and white and - although I would never
want to live there for an extended period - I left the country with rather
mixed feelings.

Let me pull out one example that really, really impressed me.

Near the Marina Sands (the $5B casino complex, which actually cost S$8B
according to Wikipedia) they built the Gardens by the Bay
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gardens_by_the_Bay](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gardens_by_the_Bay))
for something above S$ 1B.

Those gardens, which are beautiful and very impressive; an oasis of calm and
serenity in a bustling metropolis are built on reclaimed land. In essence:
some of the most expensive ground anywhere in the world.

Just imagine the mega mall, the super hotel, or another office complex that
could have been built on that land. And they "waste" it for a damn garden.

I thought that they did that despite the intense commercial pressure is
immensely cool and is a really nice example for what are some great aspects
about this city.

~~~
ghshephard
I'm looking at my Social Visit pass - you nailed it, it says in bright red:

 _WARNING DEATH FOR DRUG TRAFFICKERS UNDER SINGAPORE LAW_

But - you get that message while you are still on the plane (and presumably
have a chance to turn back?)

Yes - GardenByTheBay is beautiful - as are the two conservatoriums (one of
which they replicate Dry, Cool Mountain Highland Environment - which, is quite
an accomplishment in Hot, Humid Singapore.) Indeed - so much of Singapore is
actually Green/Catchment basin - it's a priority for them, as they rely on the
catchment basins quite a bit for their fresh water (in addition to _NEWater_
and their world class desalination plants.

~~~
Kurtz79
Makes much more sense that what you have to declare in the US landing card:

[http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3289/2949309916_5393a54eb5_o.j...](http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3289/2949309916_5393a54eb5_o.jpg)

I mean, seriously.

~~~
ghshephard
In Spring, 2001 I was in the midst of filling out my H1-B forms to become a
permanent resident of the US when I came across that form (that I had to fill
out to keep the process moving forward) - I just looked at it, and said to
myself, "Really, I have to answer whether I have ever been involved in
'Genocide'?"

I felt insulted enough that I just dropped the process and I've been on a TN
visa ever since.

Seriously - If I had been involved in Genocide, do they expect me to answer
"Yes?"

------
rdl
I just spent a few days in Singapore with some western expat friends, and
their local friends, and I really love the place for what it has accomplished.
If you compare it to Malaysia (a racist command economy), Indonesia
(kleptocracy , until recently -- in the past few years it has gotten a lot
better) and Thailand (how many coups?), and remember how few natural resources
Singapore has, it is even more amazing.

I agree it isn't perfect; I prefer living in the US, both because I'm a
citizen and because I like land, cars, guns, etc -- but compared to where
Singapore could be, it is almost unbelievable.

~~~
hackerboos
I don't think it's fair to compare Singapore to its neighbours considering how
it was colonized. It's better to make the comparison with Hong Kong which
enjoys much more freedom (even post 1997) than Singapore.

~~~
JDShu
If you make that comparison, I would say Singapore has been a much more
successful economy.

Hong Kong is stuck in it's role as a financial center, of which it's
competitive advantage is getting eroded. Plus that 'competitive advantage'
really boils down to knowing how to speak English and having extremely low
wages for a developed economy.

On the other hand, Singapore has successfully transitioned from being a
financial center to _the_ technological capital of East Asia. Something that
the Hong Kong government desperately wants to do, but continues to fail at.
And I am not even going to go into the current political storm.

Hong Kong is probably the more interesting city (I'm biased of course, having
lived there for years and consider it my home away from home away from home)
but out of the HK-Singapore rivalry, I think Singapore has the upper hand.

/rant

~~~
rdl
Hong Kong has the "curse" (in the sense of resource curse) of being the
"Gateway to China" \-- I can't think of anything else a business could do in
Hong Kong which is of higher value and return than that. It'll crowd out any
other rational productive economic activity.

------
gtuckerkellogg
I'm an American who has lived in Singapore for almost nine years, in two very
different jobs, in two very different parts of the city-state. Singapore has a
lot of challenges, but the oversimplifications and generalisations in this
glib article don't do Singapore or Singaporeans any favours. (I've been here
long enough that my spell-check is set to British English).

Let's take National Service (NS). Dover writes: "after graduating, every
citizen is required to do active service in the military." This is wrong on at
least three points, which is impressive for a sentence that short: 1) NS is
not required of all citizens, only men; 2) NS is also required of male
permanent residents who turn 18 in Singapore, and 3) it's an age requirement,
not a graduation requirement.

He goes on to write that "pride is the result" of the NS requirement, in that
part of the article that seems devoted to unqualified praise of Singapore's
success. Really? Pride alone? Yes, male Singaporeans are proud of their
service in NS, but plenty — especially younger Singaporeans — also resent it,
resent the foreigners and women who don't have to do it and who they believe
get an upper leg in society as a result. I've had Singaporean men explain away
sexual harassment of women — harassment they witnessed first hand — on the
grounds of the hazing they received during NS. If "sense of pride" is the only
thing Dover has to say about NS in Singapore, even after months of living
here, I'm not surprised he never had deep conversations with any Singaporeans.

Pro tip, Dover: there are better ways to investigate peoples' heritage than
walking around asking people about their heritage. And if you do ask, and the
answer you get is "what heritage?" and a laugh? Well, that may not mean what
you think it means.

There's a lot happening in Singapore. It's an evolving place, with a growing
civil society, increasing activism, growing nationalism and anti-foreigner
sentiment, brutal competitiveness (the Singlish word is "kiasu", which is a
Hokkien term that translates as "afraid to lose"), a terrible Gini
coefficient, complex underlying racial tensions, and some absurd historical
hard-edged nanny-state reflexes. There are a lot of things Singapore needs,
but the dynamics are complex, not ripe for banal oversimplification.

~~~
blisterpeanuts
gtuckerkellogg, thanks for your posting. I'm curious -- have you learned
Mandarin or Malay language during your stay, enough to communicate
extensively?

It was my experience living in Taiwan for two years that language is a
significant requirement for understanding the culture, even when English is
commonly spoken among the educated classes.

In my opinion, a month really isn't long enough to evaluate a country, even a
small one such as Singapore.

~~~
gtuckerkellogg
I've learned to speak Mandarin, but not Malay. I can read and write enough to
read the Chinese newspaper and sing karaoke. It's helpful: it breaks down a
lot of cultural barriers, and makes chatting with cab drivers more fun. It
also makes the Singlish more understandable. There's a lot of Singaporean
English that borrows from Chinese word order, which in western English sounds
harsh even though the Chinese word order (in Chinese) uses it as an expression
of politeness. E.g., "Go to lunch, can or not?"

~~~
blisterpeanuts
We used to talk that way in Taiwan, as a joke. I would amuse my Chinese
friends by taking famous pop songs (Beatles, etc.) and singing them in my
clumsy Chinese. They would roar with laughter. I think and believe they were
laughing _with_ me.

------
ewang1
On the flip side, I'd much rather the public schools in the US place the same
amount of emphasis on math and science as the schools in Singapore.

I've spent 10 years in the education system in Singapore, and when I came to
the US to continue high school, I was surprised at how dumbed down things are
here. For example, topics typically covered in AP Chemistry would be part of
the normal chemistry curriculum over in Singapore, and taught at the 9th grade
level. High school lab sessions here were nothing more than simple experiments
and anything more advanced were replaced with demos by teachers in the
interest of liability and what not.

------
JonnieCache
This is basically a shorter, more weakly-argued version of William Gibson's
first piece of non-fiction writing, Disneyland with the Death Penalty:

[http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/1.04/gibson_pr.html](http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/1.04/gibson_pr.html)

EDIT: not that it isn't a good blog. But if you like it, you should really
read the gibson article too.

~~~
jpatokal
Gibson's article is a brilliant piece of writing, but it was written in 1993.
Singapore has changed quite a bit in the two decades since, although many of
his observations do remain painfully accurate.

------
hrabago
Like a lot of things I see grownups do, this action of leaving and never
returning to Singapore strikes me as a reaction to one's past experience. I
grew up in a crowded place where crime and terrorist attacks where a normal
part of life. As an adult, I moved to the US and my job always took me to less
crowded cities. I've visited places like New York since, and realized that I
do not miss living in crowded places at all.

I read a lot about what's supposedly wrong with suburbia (the media and
hollywood seems to view it as morally wrong), but I find myself drawn to the
relative peace and slow pace they describe. I often think it's because of
where I grew up.

To me, the author is making a similar move, though in the opposite direction.
Life was too simple, too comfortable, and too polite in Singapore, and now
he's had his full of it, and needs the opposite. I can relate, except I'm
coming from where he's going, and I went to what he's trying to escape.

~~~
VLM
> (the media and hollywood seems to view it as morally wrong)

Their advertisers have a certain preference for how you spend your money. And
suburban land developers are not exactly known for buying advertising on TV
and product placement in movies. Its not a moral thing, just follow the money.

------
jingwen
> After graduating, every citizen is required to do active service in the
> military.

Nitpick: Men only. It's a common lament here that the men start higher
education/work a couple of years later than their women counterparts, hence
"losing out".

~~~
agilebyte
Do women have children then during the same period? Seems more like an
equalizer to me when it comes to time away from work.

Edit: explaining the equalizing factor

~~~
altero
Should woman go to jail for avoiding children?

It actually makes situation for woman with children much worse, since she is
alone while her partner is in military.

Gay couple with children, where both parents would have to go illustrates it
well.

~~~
agilebyte

      >> Should woman go to jail for avoiding children?

Do not see a reason why.

    
    
      >> It actually makes situation for woman with children much worse...

I am not discussing whether military service is good/bad, I am addressing the
time away from work factor.

    
    
      >> Gay couple with children...

If both were in the service, they would need to get someone to take care of
their children.

~~~
lazylizard
no law compels a woman to have a baby, or take 2yrs' leave to look after it.
maybe the husband shares part of the duty. maybe its the husband that looks
after the baby. but conscription compels singaporean men to provide labor at
well below market rates, in this case for 2yrs, plus ongoing resrervist cycles
for the next decade or so. its like. by law singaporean women have 24hrs a
day, men have 22. or something like that.

------
sleepyhead
Please tell me where in the world you shall live if you will not return to one
of the best countries (as per most statistics) in the world?

And this guy is American. A country which invades other countries, kills
civilians and holds people locked up in Guantanamo Bay. Yes, surely that is
much better.

I haven't lived in Singapore but spent a bit of time there when I lived in
Malaysia.

~~~
westicle
The guy simply expressed an opinion about where he doesn't want to live. You
can't force him to agree with your opinion on the subject, and you're unlikely
to convince anyone with a barely coherent rant about a bunch of topics not
even relevant to the original post.

Calm the fuck down.

~~~
sleepyhead
An I expressed my opinion. I think you are the one who needs to calm down
given your words.

~~~
rfnslyr
The OP posts about his direct experience in Singapore which are his reasons
for leaving. You posted reasons for not coming into the US, that would not
affect OP. Is he going to Guantanamo Bay? No. Does he murder civilians? No. Is
America a beautiful and exciting country? Yes. It's the government and
military which is fucked. If the OP's points for leaving were political, you
would make some sense.

~~~
collyw
One thing I notice when I passed through the States, is that you are
constantly being bombarded with advertising, subliminal messaging, NLP. Trying
to sell you something, or mold the way you think.

(The fact that a large proportion of Americans seem to think they have a
"right" to bear arms shows that more than just the government and military
that are fucked.)

~~~
rfnslyr
What's wrong with the right to bear arms?

~~~
sleepyhead
Dead people that is what is wrong with it.

~~~
rfnslyr
Is that your only gripe? In Norway civilians outgun the government 16:1. It's
a lot more complicated than simple possession.

~~~
sleepyhead
is dead people my only gripe? Surely you cannot be serious.

Guns in Norway are for hunting and require a license. And far less people own
a gun there compared to the US.

~~~
rfnslyr
I don't think completely abolishing civilians guns is the right answer.
However, they should be VERY tightly regulated, and open carry should be
abolished for sure. I'm okay with having a low caliber rifle in your house,
locked away for intrusion/intimidation purposes in case of robbery.

Right now it's pretty crazy though. My American uncle has so many fucking guns
that could blow holes in your chest, and I think that's wrong.

> is dead people my only gripe? Surely you cannot be serious.

Drop your attitude. If you have a point, make it. Nobody here is a mind
reader.

------
qdpb
TL;DR: the country is all right, just didn't like it that much

~~~
john2x
1st world problems. Singapore is too easy to live in.

~~~
brador
Reading between the lines it seems he had a hard time finding friends.
Singaporeans don't drink as excessively as Americans, so if your only "fun"
outlet is alcohol you're gonna have a tough time.

------
Kiro
That's some weak arguments. If anything, this article made me want to move to
Singapore.

------
arocks
Also worth reading is "Don't come home to soulless Singapore" [1] that too
went viral.

[1]: [http://sg.news.yahoo.com/your-view--don-t-come-home-to-
soull...](http://sg.news.yahoo.com/your-view--don-t-come-home-to-soulless-
singapore-050421809.html)

------
tlarkworthy
"In my experience, people were polite but conversations rarely moved past
surface-level niceties."

As a Britain who lived in America, this is how I felt about Americans. I think
its more of a cultural illusion.

~~~
yardie
As an American living in France, this is how I feel about the French.

But I've heard the opposite from other brits about Americans. We're too
friggin nosey. We want to know where you live, where you went to school, what
you do (this is really big blunder a lot of Americans make), and why you're
here.

~~~
blisterpeanuts
Agreed, I have been told by Europeans that it's not common in their region to
ask what you do for a living. It's as though they'd rather talk about real
things rather than mundane money-related humdrum topics. It's rather
refreshing, actually.

Quite the opposite from Taiwan where I lived for a couple of years. People
would ask questions that in the West would be considered incredibly intrusive:
how old are you, what do you weigh, are you married (and if not, why not?) and
so forth. To me it was like a giant Jewish family. Or, I guess, a giant
Chinese family :)

~~~
yardie
It's a difference in mentality between old world Europe and America. Even in
the 21st century some aspects of Paris (where I live) are still classist. And
the most straightforward way to determine class is by your occupation.

Americans ask what do you do because we are, honestly, interested in what you
do all day. I work in computers, after work I enjoy discussing computers,
tech, drinking. In a previous life I was a bartender, wind tunnel tech, and
traveler. But I don't do that now and if I wasn't behind the bar most people
wouldn't know I lived that life. So what do you do is an icebreaker for me.

------
creamyhorror
I've lived in Singapore all my life save for a few years in the US.

This article's points are weakly argued, and Singapore's staidness is entirely
a first-world problem which people from some neighbouring countries wouldn't
find much of a problem at all. But on the whole, I'd agree with the author
that Singapore is lacking in quite a few ways compared to the top cities
(economically or culturally) of the world. Off the top of my head:

1) _A conservative, risk-averse, wealth-focused culture of keeping up with the
Joneses._ This is mostly the modern result of traditional Chinese
competitiveness and desire for 'face'. Parents live for their children - you
want your kids to do well so you can proudly tell others about them, and
because you expect to support you financially when you're old. You pressure
them to take the well-respected and profitable route in life, and you prohibit
them from taking the risky path to inevitable ruin as a starving artist, etc.

The children then go into executive jobs, trying to be managers, avoiding the
low-paid engineering/technical positions (programming, pfft, that's for cheap
foreign labour), and not caring very much about things that don't have an
immediate impact on their careers or everyday lives. The endgame is to own
property and collect rent, which is the main gateway to wealth (as it is in
most of Asia - just look at how the majority of Asian tycoons made their
fortunes).

This causes most Singaporeans to be relatively homogeneous in the things they
do and their outlook on the world. You won't find anywhere near the range of
activities, passions and hobbies that Americans engage in. Everyone does the
same few things, and talks about the same few topics, all of the time.

2) _A dearth of dreams, imagination, and world-changing idealism._ The core
value of Singapore is pragmatism, and it's built into every facet of this
place. The parenting, school system, government, and even national service in
the military all shape citizens toward a very stable and staid pattern of
thought: that things can't be changed, that responsibilities to family come
first, that there's no point trying to correct the system or working to change
it because the school/army/corporate/government bureaucracy is too entrenched
and won't ever listen. This sense of "nothing's going to change, why bother
fighting" was particularly bad in the '90s and before, and I still hear such
opinions from my parents. Is it a surprise, then, that innovation wasn't too
prized until recently?

It doesn't help that there didn't use to be a wide range of employment
available in the earlier decades, so not many people tried to eke out careers
in more unusual areas, much less start campaigns to change Singaporean society
and the world. The older generation of Singaporeans would deride these
endeavours as mere dreams and silly teenage notions; you'd grow out of it
eventually and become a doctor or executive or whatever. Hardly anyone has
made a big impact internationally - whether as an athlete, artist, scientist,
or entrepreneur - which meant that there were few role models for kids to look
up to. No Michael Jordans or Bill Gateses here.

3) _Size._ Many of Singapore's problems stem from its size. The lack of space
results in runaway rents. Sky-high rents drive out less profitable business
and ensure few people can experiment with new, risky concepts that don't turn
a big profit. This keeps businesses more conservative and makes it hard for
organic enclaves to emerge here. (You rarely see unoccupied shop space here,
much less abandoned buildings where someone might throw a pop-up party or hold
an exhibition.)

High rents also mean everyone lives with their parents, can't afford to buy a
house till they get married, and is reluctant to rent a place. They don't have
their own space to socialise, have people over, live their own lives, which
makes for a pretty sober existence - literally and figuratively. (I suspect
this is one reason the rate of singlehood is really high; we simply don't have
enough fun with friends, and rarely meet new people.) Then the high density
also leads to massive peak load on public transport, which worsen the daily
experience.

The island's small size and heavy urbanisation leaves it with few natural
scenic spots. You have to fly out to get anywhere scenic (this is related to
point 4).

Finally, the small population isn't a very attractive target for
entrepreneurs, and the lack of a shared culture with nearby countries makes it
hard to penetrate those markets without moving there. It also makes it a much
more comfortable bet to be a professional than an entrepreneur or artist.
Having few successful entrepreneurs leads to fewer kids having big dreams.

4) _Climate and geography._ The heat and humidity mean that it's simply not
enjoyable to hang out in the sun. You can't enjoy long walks or bicycle rides
here without getting drenched in sweat. If you hang out with friends, you do
it in air-conditioning, which means restaurants, bars, and shopping malls. I
can't go and sit on the grass like I did in the US, much less head out of town
to snowboard, walk through vineyards, or camp by a lake.

It's also a relatively flat island. An American friend's visiting mother
remarked that one problem with Singapore is that it lacks a mountain, and
she's right. Add to that the lack of seasons and the relatively monotonous
tropical foliage, and you end up with nature that isn't all that enjoyable and
barely any scenic vistas. In stark contrast are the natural and man-made
sights of Japan and Taiwan, which awe Singaporeans endlessly - it's no
surprise that they're probably the most popular travel destinations for us.

5) _A lack of natural community and social openness._ Like many dense cities,
we don't have many events and local festivals that naturally bring communities
together. This is in contrast to the festivals that occur in many neighbouring
countries, in Europe, in Japan, and wherever old traditions have been
preserved. Many Singaporeans are strangers to their neighbours, which makes
for a small social circle and a closedness to making new friends outside of
school.

There's no culture of talking to strangers at all, and children are actively
discouraged from taking an interest in other people (being a "kaypoh"
busybody). I remember this acutely from my own upbringing; you minded your own
business, because you'd probably look silly if you tried to interfere in
others, or even get in trouble.

A co-worker from Vietnam commented that while he makes much more money here,
he finds that home offers more enjoyment and celebration of life and
friendships, more things to do, and less of a focus on work and earning money.
This echoes comments I've heard from foreigners from France, New York, China,
and elsewhere.

\-----

Some of these things have changed a bit, especially with the changing outlook
of top politicians, the livening up of the city centre, and the loosening of
old bureaucratic rules. Many more people have travelled or lived overseas,
which has lead some to import foreign ideas: witness the boom in cafes, bars,
campaigns and organisations started by yuppies who fell in love with an idea,
a style, or a culture while they were abroad. But the historical inertia of
being a pragmatic, competitive, unidealistic, and unopen culture is too much
to overcome in a mere decade or two.

No magic ever happens in Singapore. Godzilla attacks Tokyo, mobsters run Hong
Kong, down-and-out writers shoot to fame in New York, Hollywood stars zip
around Los Angeles, tech revolutions start in Silicon Valley - but
Singaporeans would scoff and laugh at a movie that set the fantastical or
whimsical in Singapore. We're enraptured by the fairytale fantasies that
Korean dramas spin, because we have none of that. We can't imagine anything
interrupting our routine, everyday lives and stolid bureaucracy. It's like
being in a small town and knowing that monsters will only ever attack New
York. That's the upshot of a Singaporean upbringing.

I completely understand why people would leave for more culturally rich
places. I hope to eventually spend at least half my time out of the country,
probably through building a cross-national business - but for now I'm stuck
here, looking for the right connections and opportunities (if you're in town
and have a good idea, get in touch).

~~~
msohcw
Thanks for speaking some sense. I suspect the author got the notion of
Singaporean pride wrong. We're far more prideful when we feel attacked or
maligned by foreigners, despite the day to day lamentations. You've stated
arguments I agree with, but I do honestly feel that you're overgeneralizing to
a large extent. I think it helps if we consider again what you mentioned about
size. Singapore has a relatively small population. It's true, we don't produce
that many groundbreaking innovations, but we need to consider the mathematical
probabilities of having them in a relatively smaller population as well. My
guess is that the detriment is at least an n^2 term, with less sharing of
ideas, interaction and encouragement to pursue risk. As a student, I
increasingly see people pursuing the entrepreneurship and more risky careers,
rather than "selling out". After reading so many American articles and
opinions and blogs, I don't think the idea of pursuing low risk paths is
specifically amplified in Singapore. Everyone wants to do amazing things, but
no one dares to. It just so happens that it's more common in other countries
because of larger populations, and the environment that successful by chance
entrepreneurs (I say this not to deride them but as a point of argument) have
fostered. I don't have statistics to back this up, but hey we had Creative and
Sembcorp/KeppelCorp. Our successes are just a lot less sexy. There's a lot of
fallacious stereotyping as a result. Pragmatism doesn't imply a lack of
innovation, creativity or success. On the contrary, it finds the most
efficient way through to it. Our research institutions ASTAR focus on the
commercialization of technology. That means we miss the sights and sounds and
new discoveries along the way, we don't have Nobel Prizes, but can one really
say that one type of practical innovation is better than the other?

Although props to you on the culture analogy. Nothing interesting ever happens
in Singapore. For that, I think we must be at least slightly thankful. It's
interesting to watch a government's politicking, gridlock and shutdown, but if
and only if it's in _another_ country

~~~
creamyhorror
> _My guess is that the detriment is at least an n^2 term, with less sharing
> of ideas, interaction and encouragement to pursue risk._

Absolutely. That's part of the reason for the lower level of risk-taking and
innovation here. It boils down to having a small population.

> _As a student, I increasingly see people pursuing the entrepreneurship and
> more risky careers, rather than "selling out"._

Yes, this is definitely a trend, and a good one. I was talking more about the
past. The pressure to go for fancy careers is still high, though - except that
banking and consulting have supplanted medicine and law to some extent.

> _It just so happens that it 's more common in other countries because of
> larger populations_

You seem to be arguing that it's not our fault that we have less risk-taking
and innovation here, it's just our small population that's the problem. Well,
I don't entirely disagree - I think our size is half the problem, and the
other half is our society's historical evolution (and cultural roots). It
doesn't change the fact that our market size limits our entrepreneurial
prospects - unless we learn to sell to big, lucrative markets like Israeli
startups did.

> _we had Creative and Sembcorp /KeppelCorp_

Creative was our sole shining star, and now it's essentially gone, massively
outcompeted by Apple. SembCorp, PSA, Surbana and the like are ex-national
corporations (IIRC) that I don't consider examples of entrepreneurship - they
were built in the mould of efficiently-run government departments from the
start. I do like the fact that Charles & Keith, Hyflux, BreadTalk, et al are
seeing some success overseas. Still, we don't have a Sony or Samsung.

> _Our research institutions ASTAR focus on the commercialization of
> technology_

They didn't use to, and now they're driving the real scientists and big names
away with their renewed focus on commercialisation. Honestly they should never
have focused on basic research in the first place, but instead on
commercialising technologies from around the world.

I like your optimism that things are changing - that's the spirit we need to
take more adventurous paths. The more people who want to achieve big things
and don't want to settle for the usual routes, the better.

To our foreign friends, our young generation is pretty alright.

~~~
ghshephard
Regarding Risk - what are the issues/concerns about bankruptcy in Singapore?
In the United States, most of the risk is borne by the lender, and, in the
event of financial collapse - the individual usually is able to come back
swinging after a few years in the penalty box - which certainly reduces the
downside to taking risk. If they finance with venture capital, or a LLC, then
even those several years in the penalty box aren't a concern - ALL of the
financial risk is borne by the VCs.

The reduction of cost-of-failure plays a very large role in whether people are
prepared to risk failure.

~~~
lazylizard
check out the median income vs the price of housing.. the median singaporean
couple can barely afford a flat with a 30 year loan.. the average couple might
afford to have a baby.. or a car.. there's no room for risk for most
singaporeans' lives. other than the state run lottery..check out the queues...

------
forktheif
The quick search I just made for suicide rate per capita shows the rate in
Singapore is kinda average.

~~~
fvrghl
"The suicide rate in Singapore is rising at an unprecedented rate of 29% a
year. With people between the age of 20-29, the increase is a horrifying 80%."

The author said that it is rising rapidly, not that it is currently high.

~~~
jpatokal
{{citation needed}} for both those figures. Sure, Singapore's education system
is pretty brutal, but it's nowhere near as hardcore as (say) South Korea or
China.

------
product50
So he doesn't want to return to Singapore because everything went right in
that country? People are never satisfied! He doesn't list a single problem
except for suicide rates going up - which on a per capita basis is average
when compared to the other countries.

~~~
emblebi
No, this is the real reason from the article:

"I describe my time living in Singapore as sterile. Nothing particularly bad
happened but it wasn’t particularly good either. Daily life was convenient but
it was only the bare minimum of living. I had everything I needed to be
comfortable but I didn’t have anything that inspired me. Even though there
wasn’t a language barrier, I encountered a hefty communication barrier. In my
experience, people were polite but conversations rarely moved past surface-
level niceties. Of the conversations that I took part in and overheard, the
vast majority of them were about work. I routinely watched people work 15
hours days and stress over strict deadlines. Yes it was living and they were
making progress but it wasn’t holistic and people openly admitted to me that
it wasn’t fulfilling."

And it's true. It's a country of 716.1 km2 (276 sq mi). For locals, life there
is mind-numbingly boring and stressful. I too left and would never return.

~~~
threeseed
I laughed a bit when I read that paragraph. Because I am sure it is the
current/future dream of most of the people on HN to work for a big internet
company in Silicon Valley. Which of course means long hours with your free
time spent talking about work.

The fact is that in "international" cities like Singapore, London, Sydney,
Paris etc people do work long hours and in their spare time often talk about
what they are spending the majority of their life doing. It's completely
natural and par for the course.

~~~
emblebi
There's a big difference between Singapore and London. In many other
countries, you can move between cities to find the place that fit you better.
From London, you can go to say, Manchester, Edinburgh, or even the rest of EU
is open to you.

In Singapore, you can move between neighbourhoods. The neighbourhoods are more
or less the same. Once you've lived there for a while, you go to the same
place that you've been to hundreds (or maybe thousands) of times after work.
It all got really really boring after a while. The typical (expected) long
working hours in the society doesn't help either. All you do is work, eat and
sleep. And shopping. After 10 years, I too left and would never return.

------
jasonlingx
What an amazingly entitled and self-absorbed piece. Complaining because it is
too comfortable? Complaining because "nothing inspired me"? Complaining
because "people" won't have engaging conversations with you? Stop whining and
do something about it.

> I describe my time living in Singapore as sterile. Nothing particularly bad
> happened but it wasn’t particularly good either. Daily life was convenient
> but it was only the bare minimum of living. I had everything I needed to be
> comfortable but I didn’t have anything that inspired me. Even though there
> wasn’t a language barrier, I encountered a hefty communication barrier. In
> my experience, people were polite but conversations rarely moved past
> surface-level niceties. Of the conversations that I took part in and
> overheard, the vast majority of them were about work. I routinely watched
> people work 15 hours days and stress over strict deadlines. Yes it was
> living and they were making progress but it wasn’t holistic and people
> openly admitted to me that it wasn’t fulfilling.

------
buster
I don't get it... actually my dream would be to work in Singapore and to be
able to get to Bali or Kuala Lumpur or Thailand or Australia in such a short
time is just perfect. You have a great work place but the possibility to
experience very different countries.

~~~
azatris
I am currently residing in Singapore and in my opinion - there is not really
much to see here and in the surrounding areas, if you are here for more than a
month.

I encourage you, before nosediving here for a longer period (like I do for 9
months), visit the place and make sure you really like it here. I do not, as
my view of Singapore highly correlates with the article.

~~~
buster
I think the main problem for the author is that singapore is to clean and to
un-exciting for him, because everyone just works and is in line. But my point
is to have a good working environment (evidently one can work quite well in
SG) but look around for the non-working time.

------
twelvechairs
how about 'because it is an authoritarian single party state'?

~~~
mvikramaditya
Nowhere in the article does the author blame this for the perceived issues he
mentions. In fact from his tone, this seems to be a positive in the way
Singapore has improved in modern terms.

~~~
twelvechairs
that's my point. he doesn't acknowledge the most important factor, although it
actually underlies many of his issues.

"improved in modern terms" is very twisted language - perhaps you'd care to
explain what you mean by this specifically

~~~
mvikramaditya
I meant the attributes that we measure progress by. Quoted straight from the
article - "It leads the world in education, banking, shipping and has created
a everyday existence of unrivaled cleanliness, safety and stability"

~~~
twelvechairs
education, banking and shipping are of course all much easier in a city state
which is advantageously located and was, prior to decolonialistion, full of
the best facilities for all of these in the region by far..

safety, cleanliness and stability are all pretty straightforward attributes of
authoriarianism . Unless we want to reconsider our concpetion of 20th century
governments usually deemed 'backward' which also achieved this, I'm not sure
we should call this 'progress'

------
thowar2
Life is short, why spend it in places you dont enjoy?

~~~
collyw
because all the decent paying jobs are in crappy big cities. I would far
rather live in the mountains.

~~~
oftenwrong
So work in the crappy big cities, making your decent pay. If you save enough,
maybe you'll be able to live in the mountains for a while before you die,
hopefully not spending the entire time regretting that you lived for money
instead of what you actually wanted.

------
pacofvf
Well, look at the Happy Planet Index, the top choices are not countries that
are known for having great development ratings.

1\. Costa Rica 2\. Vietnam 3\. Colombia 4\. Belize 5\. El Salvador

I have to admit that I don't believe people in Belize or El Salvador are
happier than say Mexico or Panamá just to name a few neighbors. It's weird how
the first "Industrialized" country is Israel at 15th place, and the next is
New Zealand at 28th followed by Norway. Also most of the top 30 are
latinamerican countries, so maybe is just a cultural thing to be always happy.

------
austinz
The problem I have with this (and Gibson's article linked below) is that there
is an incredibly patronizing undercurrent to the complaints that everything is
clean and works right. Grinding poverty and picturesque slums might be a
creative ferment for Western expatriates (who can almost always pick and
choose what they experience), but the Asians, Africans, South Americans, etc
who are forced to suffer those conditions their entire lives don't see it that
way at all.

------
mathattack
The complaints about Singapore all seem true for many years. Sure it's a
little sterile. Sure it's conservative. Sure it's small. These have all been
true.

It's also open to outsiders, and a model for good governance, and a mutli-
cultural hub.

It's ok to leave, but to say, "Screw you, I'm gone forever and never coming
back" just seems childish.

~~~
collyw
Anecdotaly, I have two friends who lived in Singapore for a couple of years.
Both them said the same as the author.

------
Luc
I feel dumber for having read that.

~~~
girvo
Seriously? I agree with the OP. And I've spent quite a bit of time in
Singapore when I was younger.

~~~
threeseed
I found it incredibly stupid.

Never return to Singapore because every day students declare pride in their
country ? Great. Better not spend any time in the US, UK, Australia or
countless other countries. Or do people think kids are just born with an
understanding of the flag, anthem etc.

And citizens are forced to spend time in the military. Okay that is a bit much
but hardly unprecedented. And personally I find the military propaganda in the
US far more insidious.

As for average quality of life. Well that is obviously debatable:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality-of-
life_Index](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality-of-life_Index)

~~~
thaumasiotes
Exactly what are you thinking of when you refer to "the military propaganda in
the US"? I've never had the impression that the military was held in
particularly high regard; serving in the military is the sort of thing you
might be ashamed to admit that your children do. Or look at how college
students object to even allowing recruiters onto the campus.

Obviously, attitudes differ place-to-place. But I found your phrase somewhat
bemusing.

~~~
slaman
Perhaps it's harder to see looking from the inside, but most other cultures
are MUCH less Military obsessed than the US just about any way you measure
it...

~~~
thaumasiotes
I'm willing to believe this. I was serious when I asked "what are you thinking
of?" I'd like some examples.

~~~
slaman
I wish I had some real data to give you as examples, without talking about Top
Gun, the military-industrial complex or reducing the conversation to personal
anecdotes about my experiences in the US.

As you said attitudes differ place-to-place, and I don't want to generalize
all Americans, I would say it's safe to assume our Hacker News audience is
more likely to be Liberal and Educated then the general American populace.
However as a Canadian here's some crap I came up with out my ass:

Military force as a perceived requirement or definition of 'freedom' doesn't
exist at your scale elsewhere.

Glorification of war and gun violence in Hollywood, Gaming and on the News,
general fear-mongering and militarization of the police.

You guys have been involved in some war or another for about as long as you've
been a country..

\-- Hope I didn't offend anyone, here's at least one link as support..

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_e...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures)

------
D9u
If you seek fulfillment from within it matters not where you are situated.

~~~
dualogy
Gonna remember that the next time I wind up in Manila or Milton Keynes or
Chernobyl or Dhaka..

------
lazylizard
a bit off track perhaps. singapore was supposedly working towards achieving a
"swiss standard of living".. now that the swiss are considering a citien's
income scheme..i wonder if singapore would follow...ahahhahahahhha...

------
seivan
I've lived in Singapore. It's actually a pretty amazing country for such small
years into existence. There are some shady stuff being done in the name of
profit at the expense of its population, but then again so does any country
that has high taxes with mediocre added value.

This person argues about foreigners - in only to become one henself. Ironyyyyy

~~~
ewang1
I'd say the US has more problems than Singapore... And on the topic of taxes,
the tax rate in Singapore is actually much lower than in the US (based on CA;
middle class).

~~~
LekkoscPiwa
why BMWs are on average 4 times more expensive in Singapour than US? Low taxes
at work? Need to use public transportation because cars ownership is taxed to
hell and back? How came person using bus and not owning a car is considered to
have better standard of living?

~~~
crdoconnor
Because taxis are cheap and taxing private cars so much cuts down the traffic
jams immensely.

I'm happier taking the bus in Singapore than I would owning a car in half on
the United States.

~~~
LekkoscPiwa
I'm happier in the US where the dream of owning BMW or Porsche may easily
become reality vs. just stay a dream forever.

