
Mazda made its first EV artificially slower 'to feel more like a gas car' - prostoalex
https://electrek.co/2020/01/10/mazda-electric-car-artificially-slower-to-feel-like-gas-car/
======
jmull
There isn't really an issue here.

Mazda tuned the acceleration of their EV to feel like a conventional car.
That's probably good UX if your market target is first-time EV buyer's who
aren't especially keen on zipping around. The author of the article criticizes
the decision because it makes the car less fun, apparently unaware that many
people aren't looking for fun in a car, and aren't interested in aggressive
driving.

Not to mention, the acceleration profile of conventional cars is tuned to the
characteristics the designers want, too, and they aren't all tuned for "fun".

~~~
lowdose
It's about the missed metaphor. Before Tesla EV = not a car. Tesla proved EV
can have a Ferrari like acceleration and hence EV = car. It isn't always about
UX. Sometimes you have to prove another point which Tesla did. Nobody at the
traffic light made & makes fun of a Tesla so consumers feel safe to buy a
Tesla. That was a major point in the buying decision of average consumers and
probably is why the cybertruck looks as safe as a tank.

~~~
jacquesm
> Nobody at the traffic light made & makes fun of a Tesla

> consumers feel safe to buy a Tesla

That's a bit of a stretch. First of all, why would _anybody_ in a supercar
make fun of a Tesla, they're not aimed at the same market. Consumers feel
perfectly safe to buy a Prius or Leaf and neither of those have Tesla like
acceleration, and don't need it either.

People making fun of other people because of the vehicles they drive are just
insecure.

If you really think that the acceleration characteristics of a vehicle is what
sells your average car then you're mistaken, most people simply need
transportation and don't want to do drag races in traffic.

~~~
lr
But the opposite is true, too: They can't, because their vehicle is not
capable of it. You don't need to be doing 60 MPH in 3 seconds, but being able
to it in 5-6 is much better (for everyone) when merging onto highways.

~~~
perl4ever
Have you ever accurately measured the time it takes you to get to ~60mph
"briskly" and "aggressively", and compared it to the theoretical capability of
your car according to say Car & Driver? I suspect people of generally having
an unrealistic idea of how much of the performance of their car they do and
can use.

Also, you know, there are a lot of vehicles that are much slower than 10
seconds 0-60 on the roads, even though 10 seconds has become pretty much the
maximum for late model cars in the US. Commercial vehicles aren't going to
disappear or do 0-60 in 5 seconds even if they had the power.

------
alfanick
This article is very biased: the author clearly loves high torque that move to
electric motor gives by default.

Mazda did something very smart here - emulate current days experience, so
presumably ordinary people swap to ordinary EV, because "it's a thing now".*

* - it's a thing now - aka goverments give subsidiares, aka it may be less CO2, it's cleaner, etc... is it? I don't know. I don't care. I do understand Mazda's move though.

~~~
WhompingWindows
electrek is basically a Tesla/EV bull, they own shares in TSLA and get tons of
free EV-kickbacks and perks... you should look at everything on that site with
a skeptical eye.

~~~
rasz
When talking about electrek kickbacks you should always start with half a
$million in roadsters [https://electrek.co/2019/01/17/tesla-roadster-free-
killed-re...](https://electrek.co/2019/01/17/tesla-roadster-free-killed-
referral-program/)

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exabrial
Wanted to explain the reason for my flag.

* The article presents a controversial, click-bait title

* The article contents intentionally misrepresents very selective and incomplete quotes without surrounding context

* The article is low on factual content, high on opinion, while representing itself otherwise.

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blackearl
Sounds like it's not slower overall but slower acceleration. Would be a good
optional feature, since I'd imagine that the torque of an EV could feel like a
sharp jerk, causing some discomfort or motion sickness. I have family that
drive like that and I can't deal with their style.

~~~
JohnFen
> I have family that drive like that and I can't deal with their style.

I've always called those people "digital drivers". It seems they're always
either actively accelerating or actively braking, never anything in between.

~~~
blackearl
I've always heard it as a "leadfoot"

~~~
t-writescode
Leadfoot is people who go fast.

Digital driver is (speed limit 50): go 49-51, brake back to 49, accelerate
back to 51, brake back to 49

Not exactly like that, but approximately. Little ‘letting off the gas’.

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ogre_codes
Makes me wonder if they incorporate the feel of a laggy automatic transmission
as well. Or perhaps they should force you to stop at a gas station once a
week? Also... you have to fill up an oil reservoir once a quarter which slowly
drips onto your driveway!

This is truly bizarre.

~~~
oliveshell
It’s really not that bizarre. The article just describes a pedal-response
curve; these are set by engineers for every EV, even a Tesla. Some are more
aggressive than others.

“Slower” here probably isn’t appreciably slower at all, practically. It’s
probably the difference between accelerating fast and accelerating so fast you
feel physically ill.

Mazda is very good at making cars that feel nice to drive.

~~~
ogre_codes
"Slower" in this case is 0-60 in 9 seconds which is under-powered mini-van
sluggish. That is not "nice to drive". I get that we don't need 0-60 in 4
seconds like Tesla wants to push, but limiting it to 9 second seems daft.

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psv1
Reminds of the shuffle function on iPods which had to be made _less_ random in
order to appear more natural to users.

~~~
loudmax
My father built a picture frame display out of a Raspberry Pi and and old LCD
monitor. It shows collections of photos in random order (that is, photos are
grouped into directories and it pics a directory at random and displays those
in sequence, then pics the next directory at random). He says he often gets
the sense that some photo sets seem to show up more frequently than others.
Helped him program the Pi, and I'm confident it really is random. Our brains
are optimized to detect patterns, we'll pick out patterns where there aren't
any. It doesn't feel random but it is.

Also, true randomness isn't optimal for the picture frame display or the iPod.
True randomness does annoying things sometimes like pick the same thing twice
in a row even though there are hundreds to choose from. Apple had the right
idea here.

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Steltek
I don't drive an electric car but my first thought was that, wouldn't this
extend the battery range as well? The talk about being more powerful than gas
is just a clever marketing ploy.

~~~
filoleg
I am not sure if I understood your comment correctly, in case not, feel free
to correct.

A torque in an electric car is imo “a marketing ploy” only until a person
thinking that actually tries one of those cars. I can assure you that even the
cheapest model 3 has acceleration and torque that feels insane compared to any
gas car I have ever tried (including stuff like a new Mustang GT with a V8).

You dont need to be into cars at all to feel the massive difference, it isn’t
like an audiophile thing where you have to be into it to be able to tell the
small differences. The best comparison i can give you is that if you press the
pedal all the way, your head jerks back and your stomach gets that exact same
physical feeling you would get on a dropping rollercoaster.

Sidenote: same thing with electric motorcycles btw. Even gas motorcycles
already have really fast acceleration comparable to some electric cars, but an
electric motorcycle is something else. Test drove a Zero recently, and the
difference between it and a gas bike felt just as massive as going from a gas
car to an electric car. Almost like a personal low-speed teleportation device.

~~~
barrkel
Have you ridden aggressively tuned bikes like MV Agusta's Brutale?

I ask because I used to own a Brutale (I recently switched to an S1000R), and
I noticed a guy on a Zero at a traffic light one day on my commute; he was
fast enough off the line, but his shoulders got no more than 50cm or so ahead
of me before he was behind me - I never saw the back of his bike.

My Brutale 920 had ~40hp less than my S1000R, but it felt faster in some ways
because it had more jerk - the acceleration kicked in sooner. I kept doing
accidental wheelies off the line the first week I owned it.

The S1000R is faster overall, but due to its smoothness, ride by wire throttle
etc. it needs to be treated harshly with bigger throttle inputs to get the
same feeling of responsiveness. I write this because it's not just a gas
bike's power, but design choices that affect how fast it feels.

~~~
filoleg
>Have you ridden aggressively tuned bikes like MV Agusta's Brutale?

No, I should've specified that the bikes I usually ride are all around 600cc
and below. I am totally aware that the discrepancy between top tier ICE
motorcycles and electric ones isn't as massive as between top tier ICE cars
and electric ones.

~~~
barrkel
I have a CB600F Hornet too, for commuting in less pleasant weather, and
smaller engines need handfuls of clutch slip and screaming in lower gears to
be responsive. Which of course I apply since I'm used to more shove.

And thus I'm thinking about trading it in for something with more torque, as
the screaming is less interesting to me and exposes more vibrations especially
in older bikes. Could go either way with that (big engine or electric); though
I have an inkling it might be worthwhile seeing what plug in scooters are
available. Or if the cycle lane assault on road space continues in London, the
fastest electric bike I can find.

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forwhomst
Every EV is "artificially slower" than it could be and the response to driver
inputs is a totally arbitrary design decision.

~~~
tachyonbeam
Not entirely arbitrary. Don't get me wrong, I like responsiveness, but extreme
acceleration is necessarily less safe. Slower acceleration makes a vehicle
more predictable, not just for the driver but for other vehicles and
pedestrians too.

~~~
bloody-crow
Certain road situations require faster accelerations to get out of safely and
while you can employ safety techniques and driving style to avoid getting into
them, they still do exist.

Tesla Model S Performance with its 0-60 under 3 seconds can still accelerate
and drive very slowly and smoothly if the driver chooses to do so, while Mazda
with artificially "slowed" acceleration can never go fast. At the end of the
day, the car with more artificial limitations gives you less options and is
inherently less safe.

~~~
forwhomst
The article does not support your conclusion. It may be that you just have to
press the pedal more to get a given amount of torque.

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fbnlsr
It should be noted that Electrek is clearly biased. From wikipedia:

> Their positive coverage of Tesla has been criticised by some automotive
> journalists. Its main authors have disclosed ownership of Tesla stock,
> substantial profit from referrals to Tesla, and ownership of Tesla cars.

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KMnO4
In ~2016 I drove a preproduction electric vehicle from a major manufacturer
not known for making fast cars. It wasn’t a sports car, and it wasn’t even one
of their high end models. But that thing was _fast_.

When I drove the same car later (post production) it was noticeably slower. It
seems that they had tuned the power controller to be more conservative.
Honestly, the slower tuning is better. Electric motors can give instant power
and lurch the car forward with little effort. My foot would become sore
driving through the city, as I hovered it above the pedal and made
micropresses to maintain speed. The new tuning (and gas engines in general)
allow you quite a bit of leeway. Press the pedal twice as far as you should
have, and you can slowly release it before the car gets ahead of you.

Having a car that’s quick of the starting line is a lot of fun, but make that
a mode. Smooth, slow, driving is just more comfortable.

------
jojo2000
Even if their disclosed reasoning seems a little light-headed, the
consequences are real at a platform level, less acceleration means :

\- lower max(amperage) to deliver for battery pack (lowered specs)

\- longer-lasting battery pack at same energy capacity (strong accelerations
consume lots of energy, and wear the battery)

\- reduced weight (critical parameter for higher km/energy) :

    
    
      - lighter motor (reduced max torque)
    
      - lighter brakes (because of lower max speed)
    
      - ...
    

Low-tech solutions can sometimes be what people need. Solving the problem "go
from point a to point b" in a safe, cost-efficient, and energy-efficient
manner, is not a solved problem (yet).

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Marsymars
I don’t really _like_ these moves, but it seems pretty standard on EVs. Maybe
someone can correct me (I couldn’t find a confirming article via Google) but
IIRC Teslas apply a slight regenerative braking effect when coasting to more
closely match the feel of coasting in an ICE, even though it costs efficiency.

~~~
njarboe
I think if we were starting from scratch that having just one pedal for
velocity/acceleration control in a vehicle would be better than having a gas
pedal and break pedal. It is nice to have the vehicle slow down when you let
up on the gas pedal and not have to move over to the break pedal. My Honda 550
motorcycle was much more fun to drive hard in the country than my Kawasaki
650. With the Honda the engine breaking was sufficient all most all of the
time while on the Kawasaki I would have to engage the break before most
curves.

~~~
Marsymars
From a UX perspective a single pedal might be better, but from an efficiency
perspective, I'd rather have manual control over acceleration and braking.

Heck, given the option, I'd try a car with three separate controls for
standard brakes, regenerative braking and acceleration. I expect it would be a
lateral move in complexity compared to the stick shift I currently drive.

~~~
njarboe
A single pedal would be manual control over acceleration and braking. All the
way off is full breaking (or stopped), half way down is coasting, and all the
way down is full acceleration. Society could never transition to such a
control system, but I would love to try it. If Tesla's pedals are completely
drive-by-wire, they could pretty easily set things up to run that way.

~~~
davidgould
Tesla’s have this as part of the selectable “Hold Mode” since an update a few
weeks ago. Let off the pedal completely and it slows rapidly to a complete and
very smooth stop. It’s surprisingly easy to get used to and one can drive for
days without ever touching the brake pedal. It also makes the car slightly
more efficient.

The brake pedal in Tesla’s controls only the friction brakes, the accelerator
controls acceleration and deceleration via the motor(s).

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potta_coffee
The Miata is one of the most fun cars to drive, and it's intentionally
underpowered. Only about 150hp.

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fortran77
You want the car to feel familiar. So they have the accelerator pedal have a
similar performance curve to that of a gas car. This way people can sit it it
and control it they way they expect it to perform.

Makes perfect sense.

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KorematsuFred
Very thankful to Mazda for this change. I love the instant acceleration as a
driver but I get headaches and motion sickness as a passenger. If I am in a
Tesla I specifically ask person to accelerate slowly.

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Animats
Maybe they just don't want to fool with the cooling issues. Tesla has to spend
a lot of money on cooling features, in motor, battery, and electronics, to get
that acceleration.

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btian
Ironic coming from a company with tagline "zoom zoom"

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gok
Reminds me of Sony purposely crippling their MP3 players so they didn't cut
too much into their CD player business and album sales.

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throw7
"We increased the 0-60 time to 9 seconds so it feels like you're in a gas
car." \- Mazda

mmm... ok.

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pwellner
They should also have made it artificially feel like it's shifting gears!

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MisterTea
Worst case offer a way to disable it or adjust the acceleration gain.

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sxates
For those defending this decision as rational, are you aware the expected 0-60
time is 9 seconds?

That's not just a little slower for comfort. That's pitiful for any car. I am
not sure I've ever owned a car that slow. For comparison, Mazda's full size
SUV, the CX9, does 0-60 in 7.1 seconds. 9 seconds is more on par with the
Mazda 2, a tiny sub-compact.

We need EVs to take over for the health of our planet, and the way we do that
is by making them superior to gas cars, not nerfing them so they aren't
competitive with them. The average buyer doesn't need a 4s 0-60 time but quick
acceleration eliminates objections and perceptions that EVs aren't as good as
gas.

~~~
newnewpdro
"Car and Driver magazine performed a comparison between the 2010 Honda Insight
and the 2010 Toyota Prius. In this test, the Insight achieved 0–60 mph in 10.3
seconds (Prius, 10.0 seconds)"

9s 0-60 is 10% quicker than a 2010 Prius or Insight. Clearly there's a market
for this level of acceleration.

~~~
sxates
Those are some of the slowest cars on the road today, that sacrifice
everything for fuel efficiency. Is that the bar for an EV? We can't do better
than that?

~~~
newnewpdro
10% quicker _is_ better.

It's not like the Prius has been a commercial failure, I'm really not sure
what it is you're complaining about. Not everyone prioritizes speed and
acceleration in a vehicle.

