
Crytek has not paid wages, employees are leaving - greendesk
http://www.kitguru.net/gaming/matthew-wilson/source-crytek-is-sinking-wages-are-unpaid-talent-leaving-on-a-daily-basis/
======
BoorishBears
Strangely enough, a few days ago someone who seemed to be an employee of
Crytek Budapest posted a plea with similar contents but it was flagged...

Edit: Looks like it's since been unflagged:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13140938](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13140938)

> Crytek haven't paid their employees in Bulgaria in 3 months and all workers
> in that office are currently owed 3 full salaries. The company is not
> looking to pay these salaries any time soon and have spent the last few
> months lying about the availability of this money in order to keep as many
> employees as possible. > The Yerli brothers (Avni, Cevat and Faruk) are now
> looking at the second delay in the last 6 months (after finishing up a delay
> of 2 months just before the current one) and the third payment delay in the
> last two years.

> The former director of the Sofia studio, Vesselin Handjiev, left several
> months ago and the studio is entirely at the mercy of Crytek Frankfurt's
> leadership, which has proved to be unsuccessful in stemming the current
> bleeding for 6 months.

> Anyone who has an offer or is otherwise considering joining Crytek is
> advised to steer their ship elsewhere, as the current situation is rumored
> to apply to all studios within the company, even after the closure and
> selling off of several of the Crytek studios around the world.

~~~
dang
> _Looks like it 's since been unflagged_

Some users flagged it and other users vouched for it, which is one way for a
story to get unflagged.

------
djsumdog
It's sad, but it shouldn't be surprising. Game companies are constantly trying
to hit deadlines and push out new products; often stressing out developers,
artists and the rest of their production staff. From what I hear, it seems as
bad as the movie industry. Some companies get one windfall, think they have
room to relax and then run out of money (often spending too much on fancy
offices or stupid crap in the process).

Games got me into computer science, but after reading articles and talking to
people I know who went down that route, I'm glad I never got into it. Don't
get me wrong, the engines and games people design are amazing and I still
enjoy playing them, but it takes a toll on the designers for sure.

~~~
bigtex
When I was in high school I wanted to be a game developer. I loved playing
video games at the time ( late 90's), why not get paid to make them as well!
Then I read an article in Next Generation that discussed the games industry
and then that dream vanished. After reading about crazy deadlines where
husbands didn't come home for weeks and couples having conjugal visits in the
office I decided that wasn't for me. Sounds like a lot hasn't changed in the
past 20 years.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Hey I'm a freelancer with a home office. Conjugal visits in the office are one
of the perks!

~~~
BJanecke
[https://www.amazon.com/Webcam-Cover-Laptops-Pad-
Devices/dp/B...](https://www.amazon.com/Webcam-Cover-Laptops-Pad-
Devices/dp/B004Z0XSY6) || [https://www.amazon.com/Electrical-
Tape/b?ie=UTF8&node=256161...](https://www.amazon.com/Electrical-
Tape/b?ie=UTF8&node=256161011) || Work Ethic ;) (That was mean, but still
worth saying tough love and all that)

------
giancarlostoro
I wonder how long till somebody either buys them out, or they die out. It is a
shock to me and a shame. I've always appreciated game engines as a programmer
knowing full well the amount of work regular software takes, their engine
still astounds me. I hope the best happens, it would be a huge shame to see
those developers be lost. There has to be a company out there that would
benefit from such engineers. Maybe Valve, Microsoft, Apple? Google even? I say
big players because it would put them in a competitive area of the gaming
industry. Just thinking aloud. I hope for the best for those employees, and I
hope this is a lesson to us all that money should be managed wisely,
regardless of if you're running a company or your own personal finances.

~~~
ajeet_dhaliwal
Plenty of Microsoft execs/share holders who'd be glad to see the back of Xbox
and games altogether.

~~~
Fr0styMatt88
Why?

Games are an insanely huge market and Xbox seems to have been amazing at
keeping the Microsoft brand relevant in the consumer space.

~~~
argonaut
Games are a huge market but it's also extremely competitive and difficult to
build a lasting advantage over your competitors. It's all hits-driven, so in
many respects competing is closer to running a Hollywood studio than a tech-
driven or even sales-driven company.

Contrast this to a group like Windows or Office where Microsoft _knows_ they
will be making billions of dollars off of it over the next 10 years, even if
they also know it's in decline.

------
knucklesandwich
Reminder that wage theft is estimated to cost workers over $50 billion a year,
more than the cost to victims of all robberies, burglaries, and larcenies
combined: [http://www.epi.org/publication/epidemic-wage-theft-
costing-w...](http://www.epi.org/publication/epidemic-wage-theft-costing-
workers-hundreds/)

~~~
cperciva
I'm not sure I see the relevance. A company failing to pay money it doesn't
have is not the same thing as stealing money.

~~~
knucklesandwich
IANAL, and from what I understand the laws about pay schedule vary by state,
so I'm not going to make some claim I can't substantiate. But my guess is if
you're 5 weeks late paying your employees you're most likely committing wage
theft (probably also not paying payroll taxes on time). You have to liquidate
assets, conduct layoffs, or close the business from what I understand.

Crytek is also German, right? So I have no idea how that works there.

~~~
vidarh
I like the Norwegian approach: If you are not paid on time, you can sent a
letter by recorded delivery, demanding payment. If you have not been paid
within 4 weeks, you can have your employer served with a bankruptcy notice
with two weeks warning. If they have not paid within that time, you can start
bankruptcy proceedings, which will effectively put an administrator in charge.

When the person starting bankruptcy proceedings is an employee with
outstanding salary payments, said person can start proceedings with _no money
down_ , and the state covers all costs of the proceedings that can't be
recovered from the company.

On top of that, as long as your demand is timely, your salary up to a certain
limit can be recovered from a government insurance system if the company is
truly insolvent and the money can't be recovered from the estate.

This strongly incentivises employees to not put up with any nonsense over
unpaid salaries, as there are few costs involved, and while it will take some
time to get your salary paid, you will get it eventually (and Norwegian
unemployment benefits are substantial enough that getting them is certainly
far better than waiting for an insolvent employer to drip-feed you payment).

And as a result it strongly incentivises employers to prioritise salary
payments or otherwise negotiate a suitable agreement with staff rather than
just stringing people along, and quickly weed out insolvent companies that
often would otherwise be able to drag things out by sweet-talking creditors -
it's harder to string staff along when they can demand you bankrupt if you
don't treat them properly.

~~~
merb
In germany it's different, you need to send a adhortatory letter and set a
deadline, you can also require additional intereset and damages after 2-3
month you can actually stop working but still getting paid ("right of
retention"). you can also go to court or resign without further notice and
demand a compensation. Also if the employer is actually in a bankruptcy
prceeding you can get social money up to a certain degree.

~~~
Pica_soO
Also the invsolvency-administrators can be thief's. As in Lawyer-chambers,
that win no matter how hard they run the company into the ground, by simply
having it in as many legal battles as possible and billing it by the hour for
those very legal battles they caused- bills which override the claims to the
bankruptcy assets of all other Creditors.

Yes, the norwegian system is superior.

PS: The german legal system is full of those laws that cause extensive legal-
battles, shipping the money of the cause to the laws soldiers of fortune. To
navigate around these black holes of law is quite a art.

Take the outrageous concept of the "Erbengemeinschaft" as example. If a
companys owner does not have a last will, the company ownership gets by
default split up on all descendants and their descendants, making it basically
impossible to continue such a company- as this creates a hostage situation
with anyone, who is unwilling to get paid out.

------
manyxcxi
I couldn't imagine sticking around for this long if the problems have been
going on since June. I would've been looking for a new job the second my first
check was late and would've executed a move immediately after the second was
late as well.

I get the idea of 'if you leave maybe you never get paid', but if you stay
you've obviously got no guarantee of getting paid either, and you'll at least
be doing something that hopefully does pay while fighting for what's owed.

~~~
BoorishBears
Maybe there isn't much of an overlap in positions that seek the skills those
working at the studio had, and open positions nearby.

~~~
greendesk
It is anecdotal evidence, but I had two friends at two separate companies that
missed to pay salaries. The two people individually found comfort in the
environment, and at first neither was not seeking a move. The motivation was
led by the persons' belief that the situation will go back to normal, not by a
lack of qualifications or demand thereof. Both people were/are highly
qualified and had skills in demand.

Their situation can be unique to them, I can't know the motivations of
developers I don't know.

~~~
zem
also a month's pay is a lot of money, and you know if you leave you will never
see it. the hope is by staying you will eventually get your back pay too

------
ajeet_dhaliwal
I got into programming and software development due to my love of games. I've
created independent games and worked at major game studios. If this is article
is accurate then unfortunately I'm not surprised. There are major business
model related issues across the industry. Top talent getting low pay and doing
it just because of "passion" which can only last so long (for an individual)
but the then new blood arrives for the cycle to continue. Games and game
engines are hard to create and require excellence across multiple disciplines
and customers do not value games enough to pay what they are used to already.
Prices are similar to what they were for triple-a titles as back in the 90s
when games were simpler. Add HD/4K graphics and the latest networking, audio,
other modern jazz and all the staff required and what they're charging for a
game is a joke.

~~~
matt4077
What they're charging is plenty.

\- programming has become much more efficient due to better tools (such as
engines) and the ability to waste a few clock cycles here and there.

\- The market for games has expanded dramatically since the 90ies. There are
10x as many people with the hardware and money to buy your game (not even
counting mobile).

\- Piracy today is significantly lower than it was in the 90ies, mostly due to
constant network connectivity.

Here's a nice chart, showing revenue quadrupled since 2000:
[http://1u88jj3r4db2x4txp44yqfj1.wpengine.netdna-
cdn.com/wp-c...](http://1u88jj3r4db2x4txp44yqfj1.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-
content/uploads/2011/07/global-video-game-sector-revenue.jpg)

~~~
jhanschoo
You're forgetting that AAA game creation today requires way more art assets
than it ever did. I'm no insider to the industry, but it's obvious that
there's far less reuse of assets, and assets are also far more detailed.

------
static_noise
My understanding is that a company which fails to pay the wages is
automatically liqudated (after someone triggers the official process and they
still fail to pay). For employees it is actually problematic to continue
working if they don't get paid in full.

~~~
space_ghost
I've personally been through this twice as an employee. "Everything's fine."
"Everything's fine." "Everything's fine." "We're shutting down operations
today and locking the doors, clean out your desk and leave the property."

------
gtirloni
What bothers me the most is that, in my limited view, these companies can do
shady stuff like that, close down and it's end of story. What's in place to
punish the owners so they have less incentive to try this again?

This extends to startups that sign support contracts for their products X
years in the future and go belly up, leaving customers with dead weight
equipment. A colleague, frustrated at such an event, said he would seek legal
reparations to which he heard back "who are you going to sue? The company
doesn't exist anymore" and that was it.

What's in place to go after irresponsible _individuals_ in those situations?

EDIT: I understand there are risks in every business negotiation. Would this
be an example of customer naivety (in not performing due diligence before
acquiring products/service from companies if they expect long-term support?)
Is the customer to blame for not knowing how to properly play this game?

~~~
einrealist
No, they cannot do that. Delaying filing for insolvency is a crime in Germany.
Unable to pay wages is reason enough to file for insolvency. German courts
don't take that lightly.

~~~
gtirloni
So the owners can go to jail or get their personal property confiscated for
this in Germany? That's reassuring.

The situation I described happened with a US startup. I'd be curious what we
should have done in that situation.

~~~
einrealist
They can go to jail, yes. But confiscation of property depends on the company
type. Crytek is a "GmbH", which means that the property of the owners is
usually safe, unless they unlawfully took assets out of the company.

~~~
cf21
If you delay in filing for insolvency you become liable with your private
assets in Germany (certainly true for GmbH).

~~~
spangry
Same for Australian corporations (directors become liable for knowingly
trading while insolvent). Normally they're treated as completely separate
legal entities, but not in this specific case. I'm sure there are instances of
this in US law too: I'd always thought the term 'piercing the corporate veil'
originated from the US...

------
Roritharr
Having friends there here in Frankfurt, this makes me deeply and profoundly
sad, and angry.

This seems to be the result of the founders disregard for anything but their
own fame and glory. The lesson should probably be that some humility,
pragmatism is definetly needed.

~~~
grx
I just hope the IP stays in Germany. Really sad to see that one of our
internationally better-known game forges seems to die. Like so many good
studios before them.

------
bobajeff
"Rather than building on stronger IP like Crysis, Timesplitters or Ryse,
Crytek has tried its luck with VR and free to play projects, which aren’t
paying the bills."

I wonder what costed them the most resources VR or Free-to-play games.

~~~
andybak
I really don't understand why studios aren't doing VR revamps of existing
succesful games. The Doom 3 mod shows how successful this can be. It's one of
the best experiences out there and it's a free mod made possible by the fact
the source for Doom 3 was released by ID. Yeah - the textures could do with
being a bit higher res and not everyone can stomach the locomotion - but come
on - throw stuff out there and see what happens

There's not a massive user base but it's chicken and egg and repurposing
existing content could be a great boost for the sector.

~~~
krapp
Your last sentence answers your initial inquiry. There aren't enough VR users
to be worth the investment.

------
petetnt
We also had this post on Who's Firing last month:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12853270](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12853270)

------
nickik
I loved the first Crisis and the Warhead add-on, but every game after that was
not even in the same league. Quite sad.

------
illuminati1911
Seems weird. A week ago in linkedin they were still looking for new people to
multiple sites internationally.

~~~
thisone
I worked for a company that ended up failing to pay wages (long story with a
lot of lying and shady owners).

They were hiring until the bitter end. The last hire never got paid by the
company at all.

~~~
ownagefool
I'm a contractor:

I got hired by a company that wasnt paying it's wages. Nobody told me about it
but in hindsight, it was probably clear given the churn of the employees. I
started bankruptcy proceedings when they failed to pay me and got paid because
of that, whilst others who didn't quite share my immediacy never got paid.

I left for another company that had form for not paying it's bills and again
it still had workers, both employees and contractors that didn't really make
me aware until I was already owed quite a bit. I tried the same tactic when
they failed to pay me, but they disputed my work (which thus requires court
proceedings). Unfortunately the intermediary I was using winded up and I lost
any ability to follow up the case and thus this company is no doubt still
hiring consultants in and not paying them.

Both companies are still around in one form or another despite having IP that
they've essentially stole. On the bright side I learnt a lot about business
and binned off the intermediaries.

------
einrealist
Sounds like a delayed filing of insolvency.

------
ommunist
When you achieve a certain size, you need a layer of conservative power, to
keep company going.

------
bhouston
How does this affect Amazon 's game engine? Btw the way anyone know if the aws
game engine is successful?

------
n0mad01
nomen est omen

------
shmerl
They should open source the engine and tools (as in proper FOSS), if they are
to shut down. At least it won't be wasted.

~~~
witty_username
Probably it'd be sold by creditors.

