
Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests - baylearn
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2019-08-20/hong-kong-chinese-students-propaganda
======
Mikeb85
I think a lot of people who were born in the west don't understand that, when
you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom.
After all, having money (or not) affects what you can or cannot do far more
than whoever's in charge.

Chinese people today have lived through an economic miracle. If I lived there
I doubt I'd criticize their system, especially considering people still can
remember worse times. For young Hong Kongers however, they didn't live during
British rule. They were born into wealth, and now their own career prospects
(like many millenials around the world) aren't great. So they protest.

The unfortunate thing is that they'll fail. The finance industry is already
planning to exit HK (too volatile), and China can kill the rest of their
economy. Rich HKers will leave. In the end, the protests will only hurt HK.

Occupy Wall Street didn't do anything, successive Ukrainian revolutions never
lasted either. Ukraine is often cited: after the Orange Revolution, Yanukovych
eventually came back to power. Poroshenko had his time, but lost in the
biggest landslide in Ukraine's short history. Now Ukraine is the poorest
country in Europe, they're not in the EU, they're not in Nato, they lost
Crimea, Donbass is at war, and while Zelensky can't possibly be any worse,
there's no clear sign things will get better.

~~~
jdietrich
_> when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political
freedom_

It's more than that.

Back in the 70s, Westerners could very easily make the case that the USSR was
corrupt, inefficient, hopelessly backwards and fundamentally organised in the
interests of the state rather than the people. The evidence was abundant, even
to Soviet citizens; any possible defence of the Soviet system was predicated
on blind ideological faith or a tapestry of lies.

Contemporary China is a long way from perfect, but a Chinese citizen could
quite legitimately make the case that their system is superior to Western
democracy on a pragmatic level. There are _hundreds of millions_ of Chinese
people who grew up in squalid shacks with no running water but now have a
lifestyle that is recognisably middle class. They're on the tail end of the
longest and fastest period of economic growth in human history and they're
still growing - we can quibble about the percentages, but their GDP growth
figures are still spectacular. While many Westerners are struggling with
homelessness due to a chronic shortage of housing, Western newspapers are
writing about China facing a crisis due to building _too many homes_.

We're not talking about North Korea, we're talking about a political system
that can be legitimately defended. It's not whataboutery for Chinese people to
point out the manifold problems facing many Western democracies right now -
there are advantages to democracy, there are advantages to Communism with
Chinese Characteristics and there's no prima facie case for the superiority of
either that relies solely on pragmatism rather than ideology.

If Westerners want to promote democracy in China, their arguments will need to
get a whole lot more sophisticated. Why is political and social liberty really
so valuable? Why are the rights of the individual more fundamental than the
rights of society as a whole? Why should troublemakers be allowed to
destabilize society with impunity? Given the current political climate,
finding better answers to those questions might also prove rather valuable
domestically.

~~~
peteretep
> but a Chinese citizen could quite legitimately make the case that their
> system is superior to Western democracy on a pragmatic level

It is even easier to look at India, where the putative democracy the country
has has not led to any kind of economic miracle for the poor.

~~~
pas
One success/failure story does not mean much.

There are a lot of studies about how economic prosperity and
democracy/liberalism went hand in hand in a lot of countries. And there are
outliers, and the studies can be questioned, and so on.

China rented out its workforce and a relatively enlightened but autocratic
leadership made sure it works, they make a lot of money, and that they
reinvest that.

India never had such a strong leadership. They probably spent a lot of time
and energy just doing what other multi-party democracies do, squibble, play
the politics game, and so on.

Also, don't forget how India slowly started to get rid of the caste system and
other deep rooted inequality problems, similarly grassroots efforts to curb
corruption progressed through the various courts and legislatures.

China spent no time with such sentimental stuff.

~~~
peteretep
> don't forget how India slowly started to get rid of the caste system and
> other deep rooted inequality problems ... China spent no time with such
> sentimental stuff.

You might be interested in:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution)

~~~
pas
I was mainly referencing the decades where the huge economic boom happened,
basically/circa 1975-2005.

------
appleiigs
I had a similar experience chatting to my former coworker (who moved recently
from China) regarding Taiwan. I said Taiwan is pretty much an independent
country given it has it's own currency, military and democratic government.
She looked at me like I was telling her the earth was flat. She was smart and
good natured, and didn't have any opposing reasons, but she insisted Taiwan
was simply another province of China.

Really made an impression on me. I bet most of my beliefs are baloney too, but
I have no idea which ones they are.

~~~
1propionyl
I had a similar experience meeting a friend of a coworker at a social
function. Someone brought up the Dalai Lama and Tibet, and she seemed
completely unable or unwilling to accept that Tibet had even ever _not_ fully
and totally willingly been an administrative division of China, or that China
had acted in any way inappropriately.

As far as she was concerned, Tibetans were Chinese, not a distinct group.

It was eye opening.

~~~
markus_zhang
It just says how different views different people can have. I'm pretty sure it
was eye opening for her too...

I have been living in the West long enough to not argue those stuffs. The
Chinese government has its bad and its good, but so far it's doing OK, and I
can't imagine any other government could do better, or even on par.

~~~
ryanobjc
So "better" entirely depends on your values, right?

Ever heard of the phrase "better to die on your feet, than live on your
knees?"

Not everyone shares the ethos that a full belly is happiness and goodness.
There is more to life than mere material goods. What makes a life worth living
even? I guess if you have a job all is good, at least as per your line of
argumentation.

~~~
morpheuskafka
Not only is there the inherent moral value of freedom, but from a purely
material standpoint, if the government has the right to take away your
precious job and full belly for any reason, you don't really own it at all.

------
ccccppppp
Or how many Russians don't understand why Ukraine for example is upset.

Is as if propaganda works. Who would have thought.

Once I was discussing with a Chinese colleague and the Tiananmen subject came
up (it was in the news, I didn't bring it up), and he told me that the
students were not that innocent either, that they killed 150 soldiers the
night before. I asked him, how could some students with rocks kill 150
soldiers with machine guns, but he said it was true. As suspected, I couldn't
find any reputable sources for this later when I did extensive googling.

~~~
cassbot
As a Chinese American, I've noticed that propaganda is everywhere and we _all_
need to be wary of it.

Tiananmen is often brought up, but did you know that the US experienced a
parallel event? I didn't learn about this in US history class, but apparently
soldiers fired upon unarmed student protesters in the Kent State shooting:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings)

~~~
cthalupa
The Kent State shooting is taught in almost all high school history classes.
Not sure how you missed it.

It's also a totally different scale - 4 vs. a number in the hundreds to
thousands.

We don't even know the numbers for sure because it's been clamped down so
massively, vs. Kent State, where we know exactly what happened.

~~~
amaccuish
Sorry, I forgot that America is the only country in the world where a certain
number of people need to die by shooting for people to care, and that number
has never been attained...

~~~
cthalupa
You're putting words in my mouth and totally misrepresenting my point.

I never said we shouldn't care about Kent State, nor have I said that it was
unimportant.

What I said is that Tiananmen was several orders of magnitude worse, and while
anyone in the US can look up Kent State and other horrible occurrences in
their history books, many of them found in schools, or in any other place
they'd like, people in China cannot look up the Tiananmen Square massacre.

I am replying to someone claiming that the US has done the same with Kent
State as China has done with Tiananmen Square and that the events were equal
to begin with. So if you can show me where the US has tried to cover up the
fact that Kent State happened at even 1/1000th of the effort that China has
gone through to cover up Tiananmen Square, or that the loss of human life
between the two is similar, this might be a productive conversation.

In the mean time, you're responding to a point I never made and words I never
said.

------
9nGQluzmnq3M
Serious question: I've got a couple of mainland Chinese acquaintances on my
social networks, who are real people but also busily spouting Chinese
government propaganda.

As the article says, I don't expect them to change their views overnight, but
I would like to plant some seeds of doubt. Any suggestions for links to
suitable content? (Ideally accessible from behind the GFW, although most can
VPN outside it.) For example, the mainland Chinese government has been
painting the HK protests as the work of a tiny terrorist minority, so solidly
commented footage of 1M+ peaceful protesters should jar their world view a
little.

~~~
Joakal
Ask them to read many sources. Point out that it costs too much to manipulate
many media.

Careful with asking this as you are risking their life and their
family/friends: Ask them when they started hearing about the HongKong protests
(China initially censored HongKong protests)? Are they aware that HongKong had
been seeking democracy and/or independence for a long time even under UK rule?
Have they read about Wukan Democracy experiment and Tiananmen Square (Both
asked for democracy as a peaceful resolution)? If they do for either, are they
aware of the list of demands from protestors (China has been trying to portray
the events as destructive people and censor the demands).

All of this is on Wikipedia and many news websites. Which are censored in
China for a good reason.

~~~
bgee
> independence for a long time _even_ under UK rule?

From my understanding, most protesters do not seek independence from _China_.
Do you have evidence to back your sentence up?

It's a common misunderstanding in mainland and rest of the world outside of
Hong Kong to assume that the (majority of) people of Hong Kong wants
independence when they are protecting about a very specific extradition bill.

Disclaimer: I'm mainland Chinese.

~~~
Joakal
The protestors have defaced CCP liason office with Shina, blame CCP for Carrie
Lam being elected, angry about CCP kidnapping book sellers, even the protest
against the bill is because it will allow CCP to extradite HongKongers to
China, and more.

Unless the government changes in China, China = CCP. If CCP wasn't in power
any more, a lot of protestors wouldn't mind HongKong being part of China.

The protestors know if they specifically ask for independence, they will get
shot.

~~~
markus_zhang
Some people are actually asking for independence and they were not getting
shot.

That said, I guess it's equally difficult for people to imagine that Chinese
government has been very, very generous to the Hong Kong people. But that's
generally true from a Chinese' pov. Generous to the point that a lot of
mainlanders are actively complaining on online forums.

~~~
PixyMisa
> Some people are actually asking for independence and they were not getting
> shot.

That is considered a fairly low bar by Western standards.

------
Leary
The thing that many people in the West do not realize is that exposure to
Western media actually hardens Chinese perceptions. There are many examples of
Chinese students who lived many years in China whose perceptions of their
homeland is far different than what they see is being portrayed on CNN/Fox,
etc. The reason why this occurs is not that CNN/Fox are factually incorrect
but that they tend to focus on sensationalist/negative stories about China.

Therefore it is somewhat naive to think that bringing uncensored information
to the Chinese will somehow change their mind. Just look at the inability of
people to change pro-China posters in this and many such posts on HN, who
presumably have access to uncensored information, and who are often suspected
of being "shills" or robots that are part of a Chinese disinformation
campaign.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Most news focuses on sensationalist or negative stories about anywhere.
Otherwise why would people watch it? It isn’t like 7pm in China when all tv
stations are playing news about what uplifting things Xi said today.

PRC Chinese have been conditioned into a certain mindset about news that
doesn’t exist anywhere else.

------
bgee
Disclaimer: I'm mainland Chinese and would like everyone to have universal
suffrage.

I've seen repeatedly both from people in mainland and "westerners" to assume
the people of Hong Kong want independence from mainland China but this is not
true.

The majority of people (protesters) didn't even mention this in their 5
demands[0].

[0]: [https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/07/14/five-demands-must-
fulf...](https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/07/14/five-demands-must-fulfilled-
thousands-hong-kong-anti-extradition-law-protesters-rally-sha-tin/)

~~~
markus_zhang
I'd really worry for HK if the government agrees to all five points.

~~~
jumelles
> They called for a complete withdrawal of the bill, the withdrawal of the
> “riot” characterisation of the June 12 protests, the unconditional release
> of all arrested protesters, the formation of an independent commission of
> inquiry into police behaviour, as well as universal suffrage.

Which of those things would make you worry, and why?

~~~
yaowenjiaozi
#2 withdrawal of "riot" characterization and #3 unconditional release of all
arrested protestors, then by implication #4 independent inquiry into police
behaviour.

Because if #2 and #3 come to be, then #4 will surely severely censure the
police for firing tear gas, bean bag bullets and rubber bullets, which will
demoralize the police, greatly damage their ability to maintain law and order
and incentivize rioting as the proper form of making demands going forward.
Supposedly Hong Kong's laws/ordinances governing the conduct of independent
inquiries contain provisions against self-incrimination, which is possibly
another means for rioters and their organizers to safeguard themselves against
prosecution by presenting at the independent inquiry. I say "supposedly"
because while chapter and verse were quoted, I haven't looked them up myself
and IANAL anyway.

The "protestors" are demanding non-negotiable acceptance of all 5 demands.

~~~
cameronc56
If I had to guess, it is not an inquiry into standard riot police procedure.

2 days ago a video surfaced of two hong kong police officers torturing a 62
year old man:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/cstj3u/hong...](https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/cstj3u/hong_kong_police_tortured_a_patient_in_hospital/)

Do you not think it is fair for protesters to want to launch an inquiry into
this behavior?

> incentivize rioting as the proper form of making demands going forward

what evidence of rioting is there? afaik these protests have been peaceful.

~~~
yaowenjiaozi
> Do you not think it is fair for protesters to want to launch an inquiry into
> this behavior?

For the torture case, it is reported that the policemen involved have been
arrested. In my view, the case should be dealt with under existing laws. An
independent inquiry should be launched if/when there is systemic police abuse.

> Evidence of rioting

Many videos on Youtube. Here's one on last week's airport assault of two
mainland Chinese. The two were trapped and tortured for hours and rioters
prevented medical/police personnel from getting to them.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vz4-Ld1l7iI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vz4-Ld1l7iI)

Another video of the airport riot. According to reports, the policeman who
drew his pistol had had his testicles smashed when he was being beaten up and
he is now in hospital.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpQpwQijRzg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpQpwQijRzg)

Attacking the Legislature building in July.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rO16RnQNZmU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rO16RnQNZmU)

Attacking the Legislature, view from outside.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPU86QO8pUw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPU86QO8pUw)

In June.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SG23TIb-
pUo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SG23TIb-pUo)

Randomly attacking a policeman.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuCgEAxwevI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuCgEAxwevI)

Randomly attacking civilian.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15gprNFvBiY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15gprNFvBiY)

It has been like this for weeks.

It's funny (in a sad way) reading in this thread posters confidently labeling
others brainwashed when they are the ones being fed a controlled narrative.

~~~
cameronc56
None of those links provide any context to why they were started.

> Another video of the airport riot. According to reports, the policeman who
> drew his pistol had had his testicles smashed when he was being beaten up
> and he is now in hospital.

[https://www.reddit.com/r/China/comments/cputoi/policeman_sta...](https://www.reddit.com/r/China/comments/cputoi/policeman_starts_beating_protester_other/)

See how it was started by the policeman bodyslamming a innocent girl?

I could also cherry pick a bunch of videos showing chinese violence against
protesters.

[https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/clbof6/in_a...](https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/clbof6/in_a_show_of_peaceful_resistance_a_young_hong/)

[https://amp.news.com.au/national/queensland/hong-kong-
protes...](https://amp.news.com.au/national/queensland/hong-kong-protest-at-
brisbane-university-turns-violent-when-probeijing-students-attack/news-
story/4a25b80027f3eda6ca793dda961fe2f3)

[https://www.reddit.com/r/China/comments/coy60g/a_young_femal...](https://www.reddit.com/r/China/comments/coy60g/a_young_female_hong_kong_protester_got_shot/)

~~~
yaowenjiaozi
> no context

You asked for evidence of riots. Are you claiming that these scenes don't
constitute rioting?

As for context, some of the links I provided are news reports in Cantonese or
Mandarin. I suppose you don't understand what the newscasters or the people in
the videos are saying?

> bodyslamming a (sic) innocent girl

And there was a bunch of armed people on standby all ready to retaliate? Yup,
not the scene of a riot.

>
> [https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/clbof6/in_a...](https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/clbof6/in_a_show_of_peaceful_resistance_a_young_hong/)

You know that the guy punching is Chinese how?

All of them were speaking Cantonese. I speak Cantonese and I understand what
they were saying.

>
> [https://www.reddit.com/r/China/comments/coy60g/a_young_femal...](https://www.reddit.com/r/China/comments/coy60g/a_young_female_hong_kong_protester_got_shot/)

The woman was shot at a _siege_ of a police station and she was in rioters'
typical battle gear. The police have not ruled out that they could have shot
her, but they are still investigating. The woman has so far refused to come
public. If she was indeed shot by the police, you'd imagine that the protest
movement would've called press conferences, published hospital reports and all
that. So far, nothing.

> [https://amp.news.com.au/national/queensland/hong-kong-
> protes...](https://amp.news.com.au/national/queensland/hong-kong-protest-at-
> brisbane-university-turns-violent-when-probeijing-students-attack/)

I condemn all violence. This subthread is on evidence of rioting in Hong Kong.
Yes you can cherry pick videos showing violence carried out by Chinese-looking
people. And that's what you have done.

Edit: Wording

------
ajdlinux
A similar article by Vicky Xiuzhong Xu, a journalist in Australia:
[https://www.smh.com.au/national/blinkered-chinese-
nationalis...](https://www.smh.com.au/national/blinkered-chinese-nationalists-
are-trolling-me-but-once-i-was-one-of-them-20190818-p52idd.html)

------
iamshs
First time I got an accurate map of India was when I stepped out of it. Whole
of Kashmir is shown as Indian territory in all books and newspapers, even the
area that is under administration of China and Pakistan. It was quite
something. Other aspects opened up too, but the map thing was quite outrageous
example. With international media availability, graphics have become better
now thankfully.

~~~
pmikesell
Can you explain this a little bit? Isn't there a big issue right now between
India and Kasmir? You're saying it's actually under the administration of
China?

I'm sorry if this sounds naive - I guess I have no idea what's going on in the
world.

~~~
9nGQluzmnq3M
Start here:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir_conflict#/media/File:K...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir_conflict#/media/File:Kashmir_region_2004.jpg)

Yellow: controlled by India, green: controlled by Pakistan, red: controlled by
China.

------
tareqak
In times like this one, I think it is important to revisit the _Allegory of
the Cave_ [0][1]. Try to think about the cave as wherever you personally
started your own education instead of broadening it to any given country. Once
you have an idea of what that is and what that is not, imagine that that
entire universe (cave, outside the cave, etc) itself being encompassed within
yet another cave and world outside that cave. What if there is yet another
cave and another world outside the cave wrapping this second one? And so on.

Update: I guess another thing to think about would be what if someone in at
one depth of the cave tried to take someone out from within what seems to them
a deeper level of the cave? And the opposite, what if someone from the cave
tried to reach out of the cave and bring someone they think is in what appears
to be a cave to them to their own cave.

Another update: The last link in the posted article is an interesting read in
terms of the actions people take when they start thinking that they were
inside a cave [2].

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_Cave](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_Cave)

[1]
[https://web.stanford.edu/class/ihum40/cave.pdf](https://web.stanford.edu/class/ihum40/cave.pdf)

[2] [https://supchina.com/2019/05/01/truth-hidden-in-the-dark-
chi...](https://supchina.com/2019/05/01/truth-hidden-in-the-dark-chinese-
international-student-responses-to-xinjiang/)

------
jialutu
I have lived in the UK for over 20 years since I was 8, and I have to say I
don't understand the Hong Kong riots.

For starters, does any of you even know how it all started? The extradition
bill? To do what? To extradite a Hong Kong teen that killed his pregnant
girlfriend in Taiwan so he can be prosecuted there, at the request of Taiwan!
I don't ever see that mentioned anywhere.

Let me say, this video absolutely riled me (even more so than the ones I’ve
seen of the rioters getting violent):

[https://videos-a.jwpsrv.com/content/conversions/KWwwg9Oc/vid...](https://videos-a.jwpsrv.com/content/conversions/KWwwg9Oc/videos/JGCtT6gS-29576809.mp4?hdnts=exp=1566469029~acl=*/JGCtT6gS-29576809.mp4~hmac=365c430c6493822175fc7d570b1f7d4b4b81af913bdd9f9fa836fd768945a8b0)

Sure, these guys are “peaceful” as in they didn’t hurt anyone, but watch and
observe their actions:

1\. The guys postures are incredibly aggressive for starters, for me, I would
not call that peaceful at all.

2\. Once someone took action to stop them, they held their hands up to make it
look like they didn’t do anything wrong

3\. They have friends specifically to capture the moment when they look like
they were provoked

Now taking all of these points into consideration, this is an intentional
provocation to have someone take action against them and make themselves look
like the good guys. Here is my question to you all, what would you have done
in those situations? Forcefully make them stop? Then that makes you the bad
guy, and could potentially have you beaten up (let’s look at the number of
thugs they have behind them). Call the police? Then the police will look like
the bad guys, which is probably their intention anyways. So personally, I do
not buy the “protests” being peaceful at all, maybe it was at the start, but
there are a lot more violence from these “protesters” that are not being
reported.

~~~
factsaresacred
> _The extradition bill? To do what? To extradite a Hong Kong teen that killed
> his pregnant girlfriend in Taiwan so he can be prosecuted there_

You're being disingenuous. The extradition bill is ostensibly about that case
but here's the reality: the bill would allow Hongkongers to be extradited to
mainland China, where the legal system is a joke.

The prospect of being arrested in HK and shipped to authoritarian China is
completely untenable.

Chinese agents have already being kidnapping and 'disappearing' Hong Kong
dissidents. This would legalise and streamline the process.

~~~
jialutu
Neither I nor any of my family have been tried in China (I am guessing you
haven't either), so I cannot comment on the legal system, but in reality, the
legal system in the UK is not perfect either. There was a really good book
released 2018 about how the legal system is broken here, if you are
interested, it's a really good read:

[https://www.amazon.co.uk/Secret-Barrister-Stories-Law-
Broken...](https://www.amazon.co.uk/Secret-Barrister-Stories-Law-
Broken/dp/1509841148/ref=sr_1_1?crid=NZFC7RAAHKV5&keywords=secret+barrister&qid=1566468004&s=gateway&sprefix=secret+ba%2Caps%2C136&sr=8-1)

Onto the topic of the extradition bill though, it specifically excludes
extraditing politial dissidents, so it would not streamline the process. What
I hear some people say that China will just make some excuses in other areas,
which then I don't see the point, since kidnapping and disappearing people
would surely be easier right, and since they can already do that, then why
would they need the bill? But you know what the bill does allow HK to do, is
to extradite a baby murderer to face charges of the crime he commited.

~~~
entrynode
what is the relevance of the UK legal system here? The discussion is about
China

Secondly, it could easily be argued that a legal extradition route would be a
lot easier than secretly kidnapping and disappearing people over the border.
Why do you think it would be easier to kidnap?

~~~
jialutu
Why is the UK legal system relevant here? Well, it's really not, but I am just
comparing it to a legal system that I am familiar with, which is a bit of a
joke as well; I am happy to hear how the legal system works where you are from
if you are willing to tell. Additionally, the Chinese legal system uses civil
law, which is based on the Roman system that is used throughout Europe, I mean
if I had a spin of it in the UK, can make it look like a horrible system, even
though it works.

As for what's easier, let's look at it this way. For me to kidnap someone, I
can just find where they are staying, break into said place and then take them
away; if I am super careful, I will do it when there is no one around. For me
to create a legal extradition route, then I would need to look into your
history, financial dealings etc, find out somewhere that looks dodgy, and try
to use that as evidence; sometimes I cannot even use that as evidence given it
may not even be committed in China. Remember, Al Capone was sentenced not due
to the other crimes he committed (due to lack of evidence) but rather due to
his tax evasions, so proving something legally when you haven't done it is
very hard. If given that you can just go around "kidnapping and disappearing
people" as you have stated, why would you want to bother create the legal
route right?

------
_tik_
I think the Chinese have different point of view about the protest. The lack
of support is not because of the CCP propaganda. The Mainland Chinese view
about Hong Kong in the current protest environment is not any different from
what the Mainland Hong Kong for the past few years

The view in The Mainland Chinese is HK ppls are racist and snobbish towards
Mainland Chinese . Which is If you spoken to HK peoples. That is not far from
reality. Here a couple of links to illustrate [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-
asia-china-16828134](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-16828134)
[https://qz.com/442887/how-hong-kong-is-different-from-
china-...](https://qz.com/442887/how-hong-kong-is-different-from-china-in-a-
series-of-offensive-stereotype-based-posters/)

At the same time Mainland Chinese look at hk problems is an economic problem.
Due to insecurity of the rising china and inequality created since the British
policy.

------
vinni2
India is heading in the same direction. They just can’t fathom why Kashmiris
would want independence.

Most Indians never met and probably will never meet any Kashmiri but they
think they know what’s good for Kashmiris.

------
euske
I think the recurring theme is whether every individual is strong enough to
deserve truth and freedom. I'm a West-leaned person so I want to believe yes,
but empirically I know this is not the case for many (perhaps myself
included!), and I wouldn't be surprised if there's a society which believes
otherwise. They might not be a total dictatorship, but people would think some
form of oppression is necessary or even preferred. I feel China is certainly
one of those countries, but can't really say if most Western countries are
polar opposite. It's a perpetual dilemma.

p.s. the country I live (Japan) is rather wishy-washy about this. The law in
theory respects individual freedom, but in reality people don't really
appreciate the idea that much. And I see a plenty of people who believe that
the government will never do anything wrong.

~~~
sullyj3
I think the key point is that governments are made of fallible people too. If
not everyone deserves individual freedom, then certainly not everyone deserves
power over others. And autocracies don't provide any facility for ensuring
that those in power are in any way deserving.

------
neonate
[http://archive.is/uRskn](http://archive.is/uRskn)

------
msie
We have the same problem with the extreme left and right in the US although I
am more annoyed with the MAGA supporters out there.

~~~
aidenn0
This is what annoys me most with the political system today. If you are
opposed to open borders then the left calls you racist. If you talk about
anthropogenic global warming, the right accuses you of spreading fake news.

Everything has become so partisan, nobody wants to cede even a millimeter of
ground to the other side, so taking the most extreme position has become the
norm in debate. It is strategic, (if you want to prevent government regulation
on global warming, spending years debating on whether or not it even exists
rather than on what the solutions will be is rather effective), but very
disingenuous.

~~~
shkkmo
Partisanship in this country is a huge problem. It also has been deliberately
encouraged by our leaders.

In a number of measures, the effects of partisan bias are much stronger than
the effects of racial bias. [0]

[0] [https://news.stanford.edu/news/2014/october/dems-gop-
polariz...](https://news.stanford.edu/news/2014/october/dems-gop-
polarized-10-08-14.html)

------
freewizard
Based on my online/offline interaction with many Mainland Chinese in US/EU
born in 80s-00s, those who experienced family eco status going downwards(e.g.
parents lose job due to radical policy change, or lose money due to financial
implode) may possibly choose to embrace more liberal democratic view during
western education; those from economically stable middle class families are
more likely to support Chinese Govt view, which are understandably majority of
oversea Chinese students.

The phenomenon that young HKers, regardless of economic status even young kids
of post-97 mainland immigrants, almost unanimously support liberal democratic
ideas should probably thanks to pro-democratic narration in their k-12
education.

That's said, I agree with this LA Times piece, narration in education (or call
it propaganda or brainwash) really matters. Unless there are properly crafted
counter message in western education, majority of oversea Chinese students
will continue to live in their WeChat walled garden of post truth[1].

[1] [https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-post-
trut...](https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-post-truth-
publication-where-chinese-students-in-america-get-their-news)

------
silentmajority1
It's very hard for people to think different, if you were born in an
environment that ever since you were born, the ideas of loving/supporting the
party is a must because she saved us, a-single-unified-country is the most
important for our success, we were once the most wealthy country but got
robbed by the western countries and Japan now it's time to take things
back...etc. were instilled to you from kid's songs, cartoons, tv shows,
books... basically everything around you.

------
aiyodev
This article is a perfect example of why free speech is important for
everyone. There’s a lot of talk about censoring people who have the wrong
opinions, that communicating an wrong idea is harmful.

Communicating incorrect opinions about China allowed the author’s friends to
correct him. And now he can share a unique perspective that they cannot
because they were never on the wrong side of the issue.

------
gweinberg
Next up: Why northerners don't understand why southerners see the Confederate
flag as anything other than a symbol of white supremacy.

------
president
Premise of the question is completely wrong. It's not a matter of not
understanding the protests. It's more that they want the outcome benefits
their own "kind". Chinese priorities are in optimizing for family, riches, and
career. Anything that gets in the way of that whether it's the environment,
human advancement, HK protests will be quashed.

------
aussiegreenie
China controls ___ALL CHINESES LANGUAGE_ __media excluding The Epoch Times
controlled by Falun Gong.

China uses both carrots and sticks to enforce the views of the CCP. The
Chinese government will arrest your entire extended family if you undertake
"political" actions, that is, try and use the normal Chinese laws to ensure
your rights.

------
8bitsrule
"For those us who grew up in a system where information control is all-
encompassing, processing ideas contrary to what we were taught and believed
all our lives is not easy."

Yeah, true. I grew up in the US version of that. It's all different now ... of
course.

------
thewileyone
I could understand Hong Kong protesting to stop extradition of Hong Kong
residents by Beijing because it could open too many doors. However, the
original extradition request was for a murder suspect to be extradited to
Taiwan, which I don't see anything wrong it.

Now, they've gotten the extradition rescinded, what else are they protesting
for? That's the real question that the protesters are not answering. It's
almost as if they're protesting for the sake of it. I think there's foreign
influence involved because a pain for China is good for others, like a orange-
tanned person I don't have to name.

All-in-all, with the world watching, China won't commit another Tiananmen.
What they will do is to squeeze Hong Kong dry of business and money and leave
it as just another backwater city.

~~~
entrynode
I think you may be slightly misinformed there, the extradition bill has not
been fully rescinded, only suspended.

The protests continue with the demands of

1\. Withdraw the bill

2\. Carrie Lam steps down

3\. An independent inquiry into police brutality

4\. Release of protesters arrested

5\. Universal Suffrage

There's plenty of reasons for them to protest without blaming foreign
influence

------
shdh
They're brainwashed.

Many of these Chinese students think the government filtering the Internet in
China is beneficial because it prevents the spread of "harmful information"

------
dnautics
One of my colleagues was a stanford-undergraduate, harvard-grad-school (at the
time biochemistry postdoc) who grew up in china. He was somehow fed
information that Muslims don't eat pork because they worship pigs. I tried to
correct him but he was insistent that he was correct. An otherwise extremely
intelligent human who had no difficulty reconciling conflicting evidence and
information (e.g. in science)

~~~
v-yadli
Curious: how did you correct him? Also just FYI, the Muslim people live with
Han people together in most areas of China (you can just go to about any
cities in China and start sampling) and most Han people have learned to
respect the Muslim religion, to not even talk about pigs, pork or even spam in
front of them. I think the "worshiping pigs" misconception may just come as a
result of good will trying to avoid embarrassment and conflicts and not
talking about any of that at all, and thus the ignorance.

------
ferest
If the media still kept connecting the group behavior to government
propaganda, it's never going to get any closer to the reason behind this. The
Chinese students in western world are not just showed up in recent 5-10 years,
a logic from "they have different opinions" to "they must be brainwashed by
their evil government" is pretty ignorant, or rather naive. I think the right
question to ask here is why they were not heard before.

hypothesis 1, they were silenced. Chinese students were in great disadvantage
no matter in population or in capital compare with groups holding different
ideas. The students from hong kong, taiwan are more exposed to the western
world because there were more chance they could get into the social groups
financially - think if there are person in your social group paid 10x less
than yours, and emotionally - you might have visited there because it's easier
to get in and out and enjoy as foreigner. Media tend to report things you
might interest with, either it might show up in your day to day life, or those
odds could catch your eyes - people pays more attention to stories from those
escaped from mid-east than those actually living in mid-east. This factor
changed in recent years, because both number and wealth have been increased a
lot for Chinese students. hypothesis 2, they silenced themselves. The culture
difference, language disadvantage and huge gap on life quality, the 1st
generation migrants are tend to stay low profile - the mexico migrants also
had that in history. This factor also changed a lot in recent years.

These two factors exist in all minority groups.

Back to this topic itself, Chinese students are heard now(and ironically
thanks to their HK peers), and why they hold different opinions?

The Chinese students' background could be vary, but one thing is in common -
they were from China, and the CPC ruled China helped their family gained
wealth so they could stand in the same street with you. Due to the same
reason, they are naturally more vigilant when the medias are reporting news
completely fell into one side, and when they are trying to find different
view, there is state media - the same thing happens in US, the media are
pushing people either towards right or left, especially when the a situation
can't be simply marked as "good" or "bad", being labeled negatively make them
join the group protecting their identities. Not even mention for this
generation, HK has been part of China since they start understanding the
world, they would try to look at the similarity between them and hker,
meanwhile hker were still showing off their superiority (like girlfriend who
keep showing gift from her ex)

Everyone has their rights to express their opinions. But the role media
playing that divides us, is more dangerous

------
Ensorceled
This actually reminds me of the conversations I had with a Cuban classmate. He
explained it as a combination of propaganda and “elders” memory. His
grandmother would always tell him about how bad it was before Castro and
Communism and the government would be spreading propaganda about how great
things were; it’s a potent combination.

I expect China is in the same place, things are so much better for the average
Chinese citizen and the propaganda machine is running full tilt.

------
leric
Can you imagine a person grow in an environment that all input information is
designed to control every single individual's mind, not only what you see and
hear, but also how you perceive and think. Simple put: China is the Matrix for
real

------
AdrianB1
I grew up in a Communist country in Eastern Europe and the article hits the
nail; most of the education was single sourced and filtered by the Communist
Party, there was never any debate over it, it was an axiom. Then Communism
fell and 30 years later the thinking is different, the knowledge is different
and healthy discussions are possible, but most people still have strong
socialist/communist positions; some were never able to grow above their
indoctrination, some were benefiting from that system, but it is very hard to
understand people that are 35 - 40 that have a love for Communism, they were
too young to be indoctrinated at that time.

------
socrates1998
Chinese students should be allowed to think however they want, but their
behavior is unacceptable in a western democracy.

I am not sure that these international Chinese students are good for our
universities. I feel like the universities sold out to them because they pay
full price tuition.

This is latest example of them not understanding even basic behavior in
western country.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
Wanting _their_ rules to apply in a host country... yeah, that's not a good
look.

In contrast, we in the West _never_ expect other countries to do it our way
when we visit them... /s

~~~
iamaelephant
Are you arguing that it's fine when Westerners do it, therefore it's fine when
the Chinese do it? I'd argue it's not fine when either does it.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
Oh, no. It's definitely _not_ fine when either does it. And my intent (which
appears to not have been expressed well) was primarily to criticize the
Chinese for doing it, while also acknowledging the fault of the West in the
same behavior.

------
AFascistWorld
The “Post-Truth” Publication Where Chinese Students in America Get Their News

[https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-post-
trut...](https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-post-truth-
publication-where-chinese-students-in-america-get-their-news)

~~~
dirtyid
A summary of College Daily rebuttal to the piece:

[https://supchina.com/2019/08/21/college-daily-fires-back-
at-...](https://supchina.com/2019/08/21/college-daily-fires-back-at-the-new-
yorker-accusing-it-of-bias-and-fabrication/)

~~~
shkkmo
I... don't see the rebuttal. There is no demonstration on inaccuracies in the
original reporting, just a bunch of complaining about bias.

~~~
dirtyid
Biased reporting that selectively misrepresents Chinese perspectives and in
this case, deliberate omissions to dismiss the publication as purveyor of fake
news is crux to many Chinese complaints against western MSM. See all the
Huawei 5G hit pieces from a nominally free 5th estate that somehow manages to
replicate the manufactured consent of state propaganda. IMO people who lived
under propaganda, especially journalists, editors or other media professionals
are also equipped to identify it.

>The editor claimed that during their talks, he explained to Zhang how much
effort the publication put into fact-checking and confirming references. But
none of these went into the final piece.

> “In the profile, there is no mention of all the insight, knowledge,
> experience, and stories that I shared with her about the new-media industry.
> Instead, it made up some lies and criticized Chinese publications like ours
> for producing fake news.

~~~
shkkmo
> Biased reporting that selectively misrepresents Chinese perspectives and in
> this case, deliberate omissions

Was there bias in the reporting? sure. Is there bias against China in the MSM?
sure.

That isn't a rebuttal.

> >The editor claimed that during their talks, he explained to Zhang how much
> effort the publication put into fact-checking and confirming references. But
> none of these went into the final piece.

This is the same editor who the article quotes as admitting to complete
fabricating a story? If there is so much good information about "effort the
publication put into fact-checking and confirming references", why did none of
those details make it into the rebuttal?

> Instead, it made up some lies

What lies? If there were lies, they should be specifically identified.

~~~
dirtyid
I was careless to label the response as a rebuttal. The merit and significance
of the response for me was the contextualizing of the original New Yorker
piece under a pattern of western MSM bias designed designed to undermine and
dismiss Chinese perspectives. College Daily is the equivalent of Buzzfeed /
Gawker. They don't do good reporting, I'm aware of the controversies
surrounding the brand. But to portray it as some primary source of information
for Chinese student diaspora while dog whistling the publication as Chinese
Breitbart instead of calling it a sensationalist clickbait shitrag where
_some_ Chinese kids get their culture war bonerings is disingenuous. The fact
that there are many Chinese voices that dissent to the standards of the
publication on Chinese social media should indicate that there is
understanding of the nature of the publication and the niche that it serves.
Titling the article: "The “Post-Truth” Publication Where Chinese Students in
America Get Their News" is the kind of headline one would engineer to dismiss
Chinese perspectives given the timing of the article to recent Chinese
political activations in western societies.

~~~
shkkmo
I frankly see less wrong with that headline than I see wrong with most
headlines today. The term "Post-Truth" as an accurate descriptor of College
Daily seems to have come directly from Lin:

> Pressed to articulate the identity of his publication, Lin used the phrase
> “post-truth,” which he attributed to the New York Times, to express his
> belief that the true essence of things is fundamentally unknowable and that
> the meaning of the news of the day depends on the spin one chooses to put on
> it.

EDIT: The article itself also makes a point of including Chinese with
perspectives on College Daily.

~~~
dirtyid
When pressed, after other employees labeled the publication as "new media" and
"news agency". There are several passages that characterize Lin as annoyed,
irritated, angry etc with the interview process to the point of claiming
“Can’t I just tell you that I was being a fucking idiot?”. Decontextualizing
the nature of the interview and soundbite into a headline is not responsible
journalism IMO, especially when it is well understood that a around half of
most readers typically only consume headlines. Hence the response article
labeling the original piece as a trap.

As for the balancing Chinese perspective, it was one paragraph of people who
are disturbed that the publication is "synonymous with government propaganda"
and a more detailed examination of one named individual who is apathetic
towards the role of journalism to further support the narrative that Chinese
students are "melon-eating masses". These accounts hardly encapsulates the
amount of distaste among the Chinese diaspora for the publication, who
regularly shits on the journal for being a clickfarm the same way many called
out Buzzfeed or Gawker in the west, tacitly endorsing the generic Chinese as a
monolith trope. There are plenty of Chinese students / general diaspora
members who are high-information consumers that have a rational basis to
support (and not support) the CPC whose world view is informed by both Chinese
and Western sources and experiences. And unsurprisingly there is a conspicuous
lack acknowledgement of their existence in western MSM, which is a shame
because their perspective is worth understanding.

Anecdotally, there's many highly educated Romanian and Chinese immigrants up
in Canada that escaped repressive conditions of the old country. You won't
find many Romanian nationalists in the diaspora, and very few who returned.
Not so with China. It's worth understanding why and I surmise the answer is
more nuanced than these folks are brainwashed.

~~~
shkkmo
> Decontextualizing the nature of the interview and soundbite into a headline
> is not responsible journalism IMO

No, not particularly. However, having read both the contents and the piece the
and summary of the "rebuttal", I find the headline sufficiently accurate. If
find the headline more accurate that your attempt to characterize it as "the
kind of headline one would engineer to dismiss Chinese perspectives"

>as for the balancing Chinese perspective, it was one paragraph of people who
are disturbed that the publication is "synonymous with government propaganda"
and a more detailed examination of one named individual who is apathetic
towards the role of journalism to further support the narrative that Chinese
students are "melon-eating masses".

I count 11+ paragraphs that detail the opinions of 3 different Chinese
individuals (Xiao, Fang and Huang) and they are not presented as monolithic.

~~~
dirtyid
Both Fang "a communications professor at Chinese University of Hong Kong" and
Xiao who "teaches at the U.C. Berkeley School of Information and runs a
bilingual Web site called China Digital Times" (a great resource) are
commenting on general issues regarding Chinese journalism / media propaganda
apparatus doesn't meaningfully elucidate divergent perspectives of netizens on
College Daily. The article doesn't deviate from generic all Chinese media is
state controlled narrative which while true omits the fact that Chinese
student diaspora doesn't exclusive derive information from Chinese sources or
even trust Chinese sources, specifically in reference to College Daily which
I've seen even die-hard /r/sino tankies dismiss. Instead condescendingly
portraying Chinese media readers as "conditioned" to propaganda, "dissociated
from truth", "one of the melon-eating masses", "passive onlooker with neither
the means nor the interest to know what’s truly going on", deserving of
"sympathy" because they're not even deplorable enough like western fringe
opinion holders who had the freedom to form their own worldview. A brainwashed
monolith.

The headline is accurate in the sense that's it's not factually wrong, but
that's the nature of propaganda via omission. Repeat such pattern over many
articles and it gives credence to the "rebuttal" that identifies the piece as
one of many designed to "orchestrate a defamatory campaign" against China and
in particular increasing politically active Chinese students in context of
current political climate. I'm going to end my contributions here, but thank
you for the discussion.

~~~
shkkmo
Calling something propaganda by omission is still not a rebuttal, especially
when that rebuttal also fails to provide any of the supposedly "omitted"
facts.

You can't just ignore things you disagree with because they are biased.

------
dpc_pw
The irony of Americans thinking it is Chinese who live in a "propaganda
matrix"... while reading actual propaganda piece.

Yes. "Jeffrey Epstein" was a suicide. Americans electing Trump because...
"Russian collusion". Bombing countries all over the world in the name of
peace. "weapons of mass destruction". TSA. Prism. Student debt that can't be
discharged.

Thinking that it's only "other evil governments" that use propaganda and
deception, and US Gov. and interests groups are some beacon of truth,
sincerity and transparency is just sooo naive.

Chinese in American have actual unconstrained access and understanding of both
sides, they lived in both places, seen both systems. And you think their
opinion is just based on "heavily brainwashing", because it is different than
yours?

From me talking with Chinese in America, they are acutely aware of realities
of the Chinese political system. But they are also acutely aware of realities
of the western one. Much more so than Americans. They are not brainwashed,
they are very realistic, pragmatic and smart. They just don't share some core
beliefs of the western wold. They don't consider democracy as a good in
itself. They consider the good of the community in relation to the good of an
individual, relatively more important than westerners. And so on. And even
when they do agree with theoretical advantages, they see first hand how little
of alleged freedoms and benefits of western system actually materializes in
practice.

------
est
> Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

The simplest answer is because they don't bother to.

------
byteshock
It’s amazing how much a government can manipulate and brainwash their own
citizens. Even when they’re overseas, where they have access to the uncensored
internet, they still rely on censored information.

The worst part is Chinese students don’t know, refuse to believe, or just
don’t care that the information they’re reading is being censored.

------
deepVoid
> When Chinese students step outside of China to study, they are struggling to
> adapt to a new education system, and are frequently confronted — in class,
> in daily life, and online — with assumptions that they have been
> “brainwashed by the Chinese government.” It makes some feel attacked and
> reaffirms what they were taught in China: The West is biased and hostile.

Many Chinese people in the West still read the same propaganda, hang out with
the Chinese people. It is difficult for them to be un-brainwashed.

~~~
seppin
> It makes some feel attacked and reaffirms what they were taught in China:
> The West is biased and hostile.

It's easier when you want to believe something, to believe it. No matter what
the source is.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
This. Much of the media consumed is shaped more by the biases of their
viewers, less the other way around.

------
mips_avatar
Something needs to be done about the poor assimilation of Chinese students on
American campuses. We had a particularly bad incident at Penn State where the
Chinese student association held a banquet, and performed a rap saying that
“all Americans will soon call China daddy”.

[https://supchina.com/2018/04/27/nationalist-chinese-rap-
prov...](https://supchina.com/2018/04/27/nationalist-chinese-rap-provokes-
penn-state-cssa-response/)

~~~
chibg10
Any active assimilation efforts will almost certainly backfire and would be a
massive civil rights infringement.

All immigrants, not just Chinese, tend to associate with their own ethnic
subgroup in the US and always have. Time is the only real assimilator.

That said, the CCP does and will continue to actively attempt to influence
Chinese living in America and the US needs to take a look at that.

~~~
mips_avatar
I think the universities could do more to build friendship and a campus
community between the Chinese students and the rest of the university.

------
tomohawk
The goal of every fascist regime such as the CCP is to perpetuate itself, and
to do that it must indoctrinate the population against their own best
interests. It must make them think that the state is the important thing.

In China, Mao starved tens of millions to death because they had the 'wrong'
ideas in their heads, and the expedient thing to do was to get rid of them
while indoctrinating a new generation.

And lo and behold, those that lived through Mao's predations now see what they
believe to be a miracle that things are so much better now, as long as they
knuckle under to the CCP.

They could have been better without all of the killing and suppression. Those
things were only necessary for the preservation of the CCP.

------
fellow2
Seems not much people talk about "Establish Independent Comission of Inquiry
to investigate Police Misconduct and Brutality", which is one of the 5 demands
from the HK protesters. HK Government sends police forces to violently
suppress the demonstrations. However, i don't think the Chinese students seen
these scenes, cos of blocking from China's firewall/media, nor understanding
what are the reasons behind these scenes, again cos of the biased reporting
that selectively misrepresents Chinese perspectives.

Ref: [https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/06/29/full-open-letter-
hong-...](https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/06/29/full-open-letter-hong-kongs-
leader-calling-investigation-police-use-force/)

------
markus_zhang
From my PoV, the protesters should target the big families instead of
targeting the mainland government/people. I mean why give your support to
anyone who blames you, and unjust-fully?

Let alone that many protesters are indeed violent...

