
I Used to Be Homeless - evo_9
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/used-homeless-apos-everyone-gets-201049080.html
======
jl2718
I was homeless in Silicon Valley many years ago. There were a lot of ‘us’. We
stayed hidden in the woods, bathed often, and dressed impeccably in public.
Some had jobs. Some were grad students. Several couples. There were no drugs,
alcohol, beggars, or thieves out there. $5/day was enough. It was hard
physically, but very spiritual, financially free, and altogether one of the
best times of my life. Today it’s too dangerous. There are way too many
criminals and addicts on the street. There’s nothing worse for a good person
who has fallen on hard times than a policy that is lenient on crimes, drug
use, public consumption, and public nuisance of the homeless. You can walk
away and lock the door. They can’t. Just imagine yourself out there being
victimized by bad people only because rich people feel guilty for them. For
them. The one that just mugged you for their next high, or worse. Guilt for
them. Good luck, kid.

~~~
ilikehurdles
This is so on point. I can not stand how little the police does to address the
entirely open air drug sales and use, indecent exposure, and plethora of
public safety issues (shattered glass bottles, prostitution, trespassing,
selling stolen goods like bicycles) because the perpetrators are homeless. I’m
not saying punish homelessness, I’m saying enforce existing laws regardless of
who the perps are.

~~~
hithereagain
In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under
bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread.

~~~
Natsu
That doesn't respond to the 'public safety issues' the GP was discussing.

Being on the streets is a spectrum of bad luck and bad choices. Yes, that
means there are generally examples of people who are mostly one or mostly the
other and plenty in between. Usually what happens is a few things go wrong at
the same time from either category and life spirals out of control.

The problem is that it's hard to get people back on their feet again and the
criminal justice system is quite terrible at it in general, but that doesn't
mean that people never learning that there are consequences for their actions
is a good thing, either.

Part of the problem is that various criminal societies have developed and need
to be dismantled so as not to self-perpetuate the harm they cause to others.

------
milesvp
This article reminded me of a childhood experience of mine. At some point when
I was in high school my dad brought home a homeless man to live in our house.
At first it seemed weird, but I understood that we were in a position to help
so I got over the feeling that our family was different for helping someone
from the street. Then it started to feel weird that this guy completely
bunkered down in his room. The few times I was able to peer through his door,
it totally looked like a horder’s nest. He kept all kinds of things that
seemed of little value and layed on top of it all. And there was definitely a
stink of body odor that wafted out whenever the door opened. Mostly he stayed
in his room and watched TV day and night. Which made sense, he was on
disability for back issues, so eventually I got over the weirdness that
someone would choose to lock himself and in his room 24/7.

At some point though, after several years of this he seemed to really be
getting better. He was always friendly, and he’d smile and say a few words if
I saw him, but he seemed to be getting genuinely happier and psychologically
better. The smell in the room started to subside, I think my folks had a talk
with him about showering as terms of staying at one point, but it was still a
steady increase. And he seemed to be getting out more and more, and I was more
likely to see him outside than just in the hall.

I say all this, because it somehow feels pertinent in this forum. It’s also
not something you hear a lot. There is a real healing that can often only be
possible with long term stability. I often wonder how I’d cope if I was
homeless, who I’d turn to. I’m not sure I have as many multi year options as
I’d like. I also wonder if I’d be able to tolerate someone living in my house
for as long as my folks did.

~~~
nouveaux
It would be great if you and your family elaborate more on this experience
through an AMA and/or blog post?

~~~
darpa_escapee
Sharing an experience like this would definitely help bring awareness and
empathy to the cause.

OP's parents and the man they hosted should consider if reaching out to
someone about their story would be something they'd like to do.

------
athenot
> People often ask me what they can do to help the homeless and I always say,
> "Just look around you!" When someone has so little, it doesn't take much to
> help. You can start by not judging the homeless.

This indeed where it all starts. There are so many voices telling us that
these people aren't human, but deep down these rationalizations are just
trying to cover the uncomfortable emotion we feel when we see a fellow human
who is down on luck. Even if it's just $1 or a granola bar we can give, it can
make a huge difference in someone's day. After all, the crisis they are going
through is objectively more important than my comfort.

~~~
closeparen
This may work when the concentration is low. I’d estimate 15-20 homeless
people on the daily walk between my front door in SOMA and the Muni Metro.
Often in relatively dense tent encampments. I’d feel pretty weird giving to
one and not the others on the same block. Especially since it’s probably the
same people day in and day out. It’d take some serious preparation before
going out the door to pack enough for everyone, and then stop every few feet
to deliver it. At an even lower level than compassion fatigue, it’s logistics.

If only there were some sort of professional, centralized entity to collect
some of our money and distribute it equitably.

~~~
megaman8
SF just passed 300 million/year measure that's supposed to help the homeless
and that's in addition to the 240 million/year of funding that's already
there. Both of those combined exceeds the budgets of most cities. First I
would say, let's figure out how to use that money so that it's actually
working. 540 million/year is enough to give the 7000 homeless in SF 77,000$
per year. Let's put that to good use and make sure it doesn't end up in
administrative waste before throwing more $ at it.

~~~
bryanlarsen
The divisor should be 7000 people + however many people are not homeless
because of the money SF spends reducing homelessness. I certainly hope that's
a number much larger than 7000.

~~~
jawnv6
You're correct. A full 50% of the budget is housing assistance. 10% is
eviction prevention. After that, we're getting into the services and support
for the 7000+ people that the point-in-time count captures.

------
megaman8
To live in, In SF. your choices are a 1.5 million dollar condo or a 50$ dollar
tent. Seriously people, we need to allow for more choices than that. I'm sure
builders and entrepreneurs would line up around the block to build solutions
that are cheaper and more cost effective, but you first have to make it legal
(get rid of the mountains of regulations and zoning headaches that make this
problem so insurmountable), without that, will never make any progress on this
problem.

Why do you think the internet took off as quickly as it did? or the facebook
app store in 2008, etc. It's because there were no regulations (or almost
none). This allowed thinks to take off very quickly.

Let's designate a section of several cities, say a 1 square mile section as
regulation free, with an absolute minimum of zoning requirements, and almost 0
regulations. Then let the market have at it, see what gets built. Sure, maybe
you don't like what happens in version 1. But, if we never iterate on this
problem, we'll never make progress on it and in a 100 years we'll still be
talking about this same self imposed problem which is completely solvable.

~~~
codydh
The cost of your "regulation free zone" will likely be measured in human
lives. Does that seem like an acceptable risk?

~~~
megaman8
That's just in the beginning. Not every regulation saves lives - some are just
on the books to protect rent seeking entities and lobbyists, and some are just
there because they've always been there.

~~~
mwfunk
This is true of course, but it's always a giant red flag for me whenever
someone refers to the vague concept of "regulations" as being the problem, vs.
complaining about specific regulations. Complaining about the very concept of
regulations seems really naive, like precoscious high schooler who just had
his mind blown by Atlas Shrugged naive.

The current POTUS made a campaign promise that he would only allow a
regulation to be added if two more were eliminated. This is asinine. If there
are unnecessary regulations, get rid of them. Get rid of them because they're
unnecessary or counterproductive, not because they fall into a category of
legislation referred to as "regulations". Losing a regulation isn't an
inherently good thing any more than gaining one is an inherently bad thing.
The only thing that matters is whether or not it's a net positive, and that's
specific to each regulation. It's like saying, "there's too many laws! We need
to get rid of some laws!", and proceeding to randomly choose laws to get rid
of until numberOfLaws <= totallyArbitraryMaximumLawCountThatSomeoneMadeUp.

------
deckar01
> I was overqualified for most minimum wage jobs.

The author lost me here. I have taken jobs way below my expectations to make
ends meet. I got startlingly close to not making rent, but I took a job that
barely got me by and rode it out until I was able to move to a company that
understood the value of my experience.

~~~
ska
The author may just have meant that he was rejected from such jobs due to
being honest about his education when asked, which is a fairly common
practice.

~~~
nradov
There's nothing dishonest about omitting irrelevant qualifications and
experience from a job application.

~~~
umichguy
Genuine question for you (and anyone else), while on the topic. If you had a
Master's degree and all you did was "normal" office job type stuff, but now if
you want to do hourly burger flipping or whatever else, how would you go about
tailoring your CV? You can drop a degree or something but now you have to also
account for 5 to 7yrs of full-time job experience.....I am trying to rack my
brain.

~~~
yitosda
I doubt you need to account for a gap in work experience for a burger flipping
job.

~~~
umichguy
I had a friend who had a BS and wanted a temp part time job but got turned
down a lot....and these were simple jobs!

------
TallGuyShort
Question for the author or anyone else with similar background: I've
previously done a lot of work with homeless and poverty-stricken people, and
one of my biggest remaining difficulties is people who won't accept help, or
are offended when people only do little things to help. Part of that certainly
could come from any drug or mental issue that contributed to their
homelessness in the first place, but I'm sure it's also unavoidable when
you're an outcast from much of society for so long even without those
problems. So my question is this:

What can people who work at food pantries, distribution centers or just
strangers do to come off as less condescending and have their help be more
readily accepted?

~~~
nyghtly
When you say that they won't accept help, what do you mean? What did you try
to offer that they didn't accept?

~~~
technobabble
I can't speek for the parent poster. I don't feel comfortable giving money, so
instead I offer to get them something at a local restaraunt, or try to give
them some of my food if I have it on me.

In some (but not all) circumstances, I've been told to "f!ck off" and "suck a
c!ck" becaue they want money, presumably for drugs/alcohol/etc.

Again this is my experience. Your mileage may vary.

~~~
elliekelly
I don't give money to homeless people for the same reason. The occasional rude
responses can absolutely be frustrating but I think it helps (and is very
difficult) to try to put yourself in the shoes of someone suffering from
addiction.

There's a homeless man in my neighborhood named Kevin that I chat with most
mornings when I walk my dog. He goes to a methadone clinic to help treat his
addiction. I usually see him when I'm walking towards the coffee shop, ask him
for his coffee/breakfast order, and he hangs out with my dog while I go
inside. Most days he's a nice, personable, friendly guy who tells me "dad
jokes" and has a bag of dog treats for his neighborhood friends. Sober Kevin
is appreciative and would never dream of asking me for a dime. Some days he's
coming off a bender and looking for money to buy more drugs and is kind of a
dick. A lot of the benders coincide with him being unable to get to the clinic
for one reason or another.

Occasionally sober Kevin will apologize for the way he spoke to me when he was
single mindedly focused on his next high. He once offered the analogy of when
you _really_ need to pee. The absolute only thing your brain is capable of
focusing on is finding a bathroom. You're urgently trying to solve this one,
desperate problem. You're walking around asking and asking where the bathroom
is and people keep saying "I can't help you find the bathroom, but here's a
vending machine."

It's by no means an excuse for someone to be rude to a stranger trying to help
but it certainly helps me have a little bit more compassion for those dealing
with addiction. I think it's frustrating for them, too.

~~~
magic_beans
I wish there were more kind, sane people like you on HN. Some commenters in
this thread really lack empathy :(

------
ravenstine
> Homeless people are not going to kill you

I understand a lot of the insight this person has provided us about
homelessness, but I beg to differ on this point, and I'm sure it's location
dependent.

I currently live in Santa Monica, and the vast majority of the homeless here
clearly either have substance abuse problems or mental illness(I'm sure it's
often both at once). I've had countless instances where a homeless person will
step in front of my car, blocking my way into an intersection or parking lot,
and try to intimidate me by shouting obscenities. The other day, I had to tell
off a homeless man who was standing at an outdoor cafe and rambling on about
how "women are whores" and other _wisdom_ in front of women and children(not
that men should be exposed to that either). Yesterday I witnessed a homeless
man urinating in the middle of the street in broad daylight.

When I was living in Pasadena earlier this year, I worked next to a homeless
shelter. For the most part it was safe, but there were days where we were
warned to be on the lookout for certain _characters_ who were harassing people
on their way to work. There was the occasional rape and the occasional stab,
although it was almost always homeless-on-homeless. Down the street there was
a vacant restaurant where a homeless couple sneaked in and lived for some
time, until it turned into a murder/suicide and they had to put up extra
fencing to prevent such incidents from happening again.

One of the biggest reasons that people drive instead of take the train in LA,
besides the fact that our civic planning has a history of sucking, is the fact
that the homeless make many train rides very unpleasant. I don't have enough
fingers on my hands to count the number of times I witnessed homeless
individuals, sometimes barely clothed, out right screaming and threatening
random passengers. In my experience, this sort of thing happened at least a
few times a week. It happened enough that there came times where I thought
"fuck this shit" and decided to start driving to work again.

The homeless aren't viewed as dangerous for no reason. Even if they aren't
technically dangerous, many of them are legitimately _scary_. There are places
where the homeless are mostly people down on their luck or living that way by
choice; I grew up in a town where the homeless are that sort of benign. But in
cities like LA, the word "homeless" has an almost completely different
definition.

Sorry, but I'm not about to throw out my pepper spray.

ADDENDUM: The reason I bring up relatively harmless behavior like the public
urination is that when the average person sees that, they're going to think in
the back of their minds that "If he's going to do that so brazenly, _what
else_ is he capable of?" Add to that the perception that the police are
ineffective against the homeless, _which they are_ , and even small
misdemeanors can seem as signs of danger to the non-homeless.

~~~
Nomentatus
There are certainly scary homeless people; psychopathy is one of many reasons
one might become homeless. But beware of publication bias - mentally ill
homeless people are far more likely to draw your attention than either sane
homeless people or someone who screams in their own living room a lot. Your
well-housed neighbor isn't necessarily a lot more sane or well-behaved, and
certainly not less violent I've read. Diseases of inflammation are on the
rise, and depression and Schizophrenia increasingly look like brain
inflammation. (These don't correlate with excess violence to others, however.)

~~~
exolymph
Offering this comment in a here's-information-you-might-not-have sense, not
trying to be a pedant: What you mean is "selection bias" or "sampling bias,"
the general terms, not "publication bias" which is a specific instance of the
fallacy.

------
wjossey
I live in Central LA (near LACMA / La Brea Tar Pits), and share my
neighborhood with dozens of homeless. Most of the homeless in my area are what
I would deem "regulars", as they tend to sleep / hang out in the same spots
day in and day out.

I can't tell you how they landed in the situation they are in, but I can
safely say that 9/10 appear (and I'm not a doctor, so I can't obviously say
for certain) to have at minimum a substance abuse issue, which could be
masking or exacerbating a mental health disorder. As such, I choose not to
give cash to any of the homeless near my home and only ever give food. Having
seen first hand with my father and step-mother the pull of substance abuse,
I'd rather know any donation I give helps them sustain life, not speed up
their demise.

All that being said, I constantly struggle with what is the right moral thing
for us to do as a collective society about homelessness. On the one hand,
these are cognitive human beings who have a right to self-determination. On
the other hand, their self-determination comes with the detriment of my
neighborhood. I get harassed a few times a week, mostly just yelling
incoherently at me, but sometimes following me. I've had garbage thrown at me
as I walked past an encampment. And, I've had my dog come up limping a few
times from shattered glass that gets up into her paws.

To me, every community in LA, whether you're in the richest part of Beverly
Hills, or the Watts housing projects, deserves clean & safe streets. I'm
unconvinced that we can have that while we allow people to live arbitrarily on
them day in and day out.

So, what do we do?

[1] We shouldn't send these people to jail, as incarceration is just a
revolving door of negative reinforcement.

[2] We should detain individuals indefinitely in mental health and substance
abuse facilities, and give those facilities the time it takes to start the
process of recovery and treatment (we're talking months, not days or even
weeks).

[3] We should provide indefinite housing & treatment for those who are unable
to take that next step and fully re-enter society and take care of themselves.

[4] We should repeat the cycle as many times as necessary, given that we know
substance abuse relapses are common, and going off medication for those who
are mentally ill is a common issue as well.

This is expensive. This is complicated. And, in many states, this wouldn't be
legal. We've decided that humans have the right to self-determination (which
is a good thing), but we've lost sight of the fact that when a human being is
in the grips of an addiction or mental health disorder, they have already lost
control. The addiction is what is now determining their behavior, not their
own personal choice.

When I tried to get my father hospitalized in 2015 during the final days of
his alcohol addiction, he was unable to walk, rarely ate, and spent the
entirety of his day in bed drinking. We were finally able to get the local
sheriff to pink slip him (72 hour hold) at a hospital in Columbus, where they
kept him alive while the alcohol left his system. It took 10 days for the
hospital to choose to release him because of how poor his health was, and
their primary recommendation was that he go into a nursing home (for context,
he was 61 at the time). While he initially refused, we convinced him to give
it a try, but that lasted only 48 hours before he returned back home.

Once home, he was able resume his drinking, and was dead 5 months later. Less
than three years later, my step-mother would be dead as well from the same
issues.

In neither case did I, or the state, have any legal authority to get him into
real rehabilitative care. Lawyers reaffirmed that even given his diminishing
cognitive state, Ohio's laws made it clear that he had a right to drink
himself to drink himself to death. I contend that his addiction was the one
making that choice, not him, and that our laws are enabling addiction, rather
than defending independence.

While my father was not homeless, that was just a byproduct of his early good
fortune. If he had come from lessor means, he would have been on the street
for years and potentially died more rapidly. In both cases, the state would
have (and did) protected his right to be homeless and drink himself to death.

I recognize how reasonable people can disagree heavily on this topic. I
recognize how I very well may be wrong (massively wrong) in my vantage point.
However, I can tell you that whatever we are doing as a society right now is
not working, and it feels worth trying something new at this point.

~~~
nyghtly
Homelessness != Substance Use Disorder

Moreover, why does treatment have to come at the expense of self-
determination? The reality is that people want to receive treatment--if they
don't, it is because they encounter a barrier to treatment.

Barriers to treatment include: lack of treatment facilities (hospitals do not
count), poor quality of existing treatment facilities, unwillingness of
treatment facilities to take anything but an abstinence-only approach, lack of
other treatment options, such as medically assisted treatment.

So I would say yes to all your points, except number 2. If people don't want
to recieve treatment, then we should assume that the treatment isn't good
enough and needs to be improved. But indefinitely detaining someone in a place
that they don't want to be is frankly a human rights abuse, and contradicts
your first point.

~~~
ksenzee
> Homelessness != Substance Use Disorder

True. But the Venn diagram overlaps a _lot_. If we magically solved
homelessness for everyone with a substance-abuse problem, the people still
left homeless would be the ones cities are already able to help.

~~~
darpa_escapee
The majority of homelessness is caused by economic issues like the loss of a
job, lack of sufficient income, lack of affordable housing and domestic
violence. I did some work for an Australian charity that works with the
homeless, so I have this graphic[1] on hand.

Here's a relevant graphic for the US[4].

The top three obstacles to obtaining permanent housing in SF are lack of
affordability, unemployment and lack of housing availability[2].

The figures I've seen put substance abuse and alcoholism between ~10% and ~20%
of the reasons for homelessness[3].

[1] [https://probonoaustralia.com.au/wp-
content/uploads/2016/08/w...](https://probonoaustralia.com.au/wp-
content/uploads/2016/08/what-causes-homelessness-in-Australia-1024x630.jpg)

[2] [http://www.socketsite.com/archives/2016/02/san-franciscos-
ho...](http://www.socketsite.com/archives/2016/02/san-franciscos-homeless-
crisis-is-homegrown.html)

[3]
[https://www.spur.org/sites/default/files/wysiwyg/Figure%206_...](https://www.spur.org/sites/default/files/wysiwyg/Figure%206_0.png)

[4] [http://www.homelesshouston.org/wp-
content/uploads/2012/09/lo...](http://www.homelesshouston.org/wp-
content/uploads/2012/09/loss_of_job_pie.gif)

~~~
wjossey
Thanks for taking the time to provide background data. This is all really
great.

I'm skeptical of the percentages you shared, not because I think people are
liars, but that rooting out causative effects is complex, especially in self-
reported cases.

I have an aunt who was homeless for the better part of a decade. If you had
spoken to her during this period of time about why she was homeless, she would
have said many things such as (1) she lost her job (2) she got evicted (3) her
family kicked her out. In reality she is a paranoid schizophrenic, who does
not understand when she's not on her medication that she has schizophrenia.
So, was she homeless because she lost her job? Yes. Did she lose her job
because she was scaring customers due to her mental disorder? Yes.

When my father was in the hospital and detoxing from his alcohol abuse, he was
asked repeatedly "Russ, do you have an alcohol problem?" He uniformly
responded "No I do not." He only changed his tune when he believed answering
in the affirmative would get his release.

My general point is that homelessness and substance abuse are deeply
intertwined, and that if we pull on the thread long enough in someone's
backstory, we'll often find that substance abuse was a catalyst in the chain
reaction that resulted in their homelessness, but they aren't willing to, or
aren't self aware enough, to recognize it.

~~~
darpa_escapee
Research that goes beyond self-reports echoes the sentiment that homelessness
is overwhelmingly an economic issue. That's not to understate the impact that
health, substance abuse and domestic violence play, either.

This is important to recognize, because families are falling victim to
homelessness due to loss of jobs, insufficient income and the rising cost of
living.

You could probably shake a few alcoholics out of that population, just like
you could with the general population, but the overwhelming majority of them
became homeless because of economic reasons. Those reasons, from here[1],
include lack of affordable housing, unemployment, poverty, and low wages, in
that order.

I have an uncle that became homeless after his divorce. It's a hole anyone can
fall into if just the right bad things happen.

There's plenty of research available. I implore anyone who is reading this to
Google "causes of homelessness", or start here[2] and continue researching by
checking out the citations.

[1]
[https://www.nlchp.org/documents/Homeless_Stats_Fact_Sheet](https://www.nlchp.org/documents/Homeless_Stats_Fact_Sheet)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_the_United_Sta...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_the_United_States#Causes)

~~~
wjossey
Reading more on what you shared, and a more contemporary study [1], I think
the issue is that when I say "homeless", I'm talking about the chronic
homeless in unsheltered situations in Los Angeles. Many of those who are also
commenting here live in LA & SF, where we have the largest number of
unsheltered homeless in the US, per capita.

All that being said, this survey seems to be absolute junk (the mayor survey,
which is cited elsewhere). The survey instrument is at the bottom of the page
and is remarkably subjective / at the whims of the reviewer. The word
"alcohol" shows up once in that whole report. As does the word "drug[s]".

[1]
[https://endhomelessness.atavist.com/mayorsreport2016](https://endhomelessness.atavist.com/mayorsreport2016)

------
troydavis
For anyone who wants to better understand homelessness, check out Seattle’s
2018 survey: [http://allhomekc.org/wp-
content/uploads/2018/05/FINALDRAFT-C...](http://allhomekc.org/wp-
content/uploads/2018/05/FINALDRAFT-COUNTUSIN2018REPORT-5.25.18.pdf)

The first section is a one-night count. Scroll past it to page 23 for the the
survey results, which are incredibly informative. n=1056, margin of error +-
2.9%.

------
yosefzeev
We have experienced a form of homelessness due to gang stalking and
intimidation and a lack of the system doing anything about it because of
Antisemitism: [https://www.scribd.com/document/389212460/Antisemitism-in-
We...](https://www.scribd.com/document/389212460/Antisemitism-in-Western-
Kentucky)

~~~
kevinwang
Wow

------
lisper
Ten years ago I spent two years trying to get a homeless person off the
streets and made a movie about it:

[http://graceofgodmovie.com](http://graceofgodmovie.com)

I can vouch for everything this guy says, particularly the "Homeless !=
uneducated" part. My main subject had a masters degree.

------
dumbfoundded
In San Francisco, nearly $40K is spent per homeless person. How much money do
we need to spend and how should we spend it?

~~~
wolfgang42
Measuring "dollars per homeless person" is, IMO, worse than useless. The
problem is that the better you do the job, the _worse_ the number looks. If
you manage to house all but 1 person, suddenly it rockets into millions of
dollars per remaining homeless person!

~~~
gpm
If there's one homeless person and you're spending millions of dollars on
them, perhaps you should stop?

~~~
nkurz
How do you distinguish between A) unnecessarily spending millions of dollars
on a single homeless person and B) spending millions of dollars to reduce the
otherwise large homeless population to only one?

The best approach is probably not to cut spending to zero and then wait to see
what happens. But perhaps it's reasonable to cut spending by 10-25% and then
monitor the results?

~~~
gpm
By distinguishing between funding to homeless people, and funding to at risk
but still homed people? Also by making sure we are counting people correctly
(if 10 people are all temporarily homeless at some point during the use of the
funding, and then homed, we had 10 homeless people not 0).

~~~
wolfgang42
So as soon as someone moves from being classified as "homeless" to "homed",
you have to shuffle around all the budgets for every service you're providing
to them? This seems like a good way to increase bureaucratic overhead and ways
for people to fall through the gaps, with the only advantage being neater
numbers for bean-counting.

~~~
gpm
If we are trying to measure how much money we spend per homeless person we
have to identify what portion of the money goes to them. That can just be done
by measuring instead of budgeting before hand of course...

------
ghostbrainalpha
This man escaped homelessness by winning $50,000 on Wheel Of Fortune.

It seems like he might have an even more interesting story to tell than what's
in this article.

~~~
ravenstine
I wonder where he is now, though? $50k these days will only get a person so
far.

~~~
hnal943
If you are still homeless after getting an $50,000 pay day, your problem is
not lack of money.

------
yters
I wonder if the high minimum wage makes it harder to employ people who tend to
be homeless. I ask because I see many young people homeless these days, and it
isn't clear why they are homeless.

~~~
josh_p
What do you mean by "high minimum wage"? Federal minimum wage in the United
States is still $7.25 which is not enough for someone to live on, especially
in a high cost of living area. I don't understand.

[https://www.minimum-wage.org/federal](https://www.minimum-wage.org/federal)

~~~
nroets
I recently toured for 5 months in the US on my bicycle. My average cost was
$30 per day. That included sightseeing, an airline ticket every month and a
bus ticket every month. I used Warm Showers and wild camping, so I rarely paid
for housing. $7.25 per hour is enough to live on. You just need to work enough
hours, do long commutes and be very, very disciplined in all your purchases.

~~~
elliekelly
Even if you live in a state with no income tax, work full-time at your minimum
wage job, and live as you describe (which is homeless) your take home pay
would only barely cover your $30/day budget. What happens when you get sick
and have to miss a shift? Or need to see a doctor? What happens if your job is
in New England where it's well below freezing at night for a significant
portion of the year?

It's disingenuous to perpetuate the notion that "discipline" is all that's
needed to survive on minimum wage and it's patently ridiculous to suggest that
people on minimum wage ought to "wild camp" in order to make ends meet.

~~~
PSZD
I live on less than 30/day (including rent) working a poorly paid manual labor
part time job in a state with income tax. No, I don't own a car. Yes, I split
housing costs with other people.

> What happens when you get sick and have to miss a shift?

As mandated by state law, I get paid for my normal hours.

> It's disingenuous to perpetuate the notion that "discipline" is all that's
> needed to survive on minimum wage

It's also amusing to be lectured about how your situation is impossible by
people who are going into debt making 80k+ a year.

~~~
toasterlovin
Nobody wants to hear that there are some people who are just not equipped for
an environment A) with abundant access to addictive substances and B) where
economic success is dependent on being reasonably intelligent and able to
delay gratification.

~~~
Nomentatus
Epigenetic damage can undoubtedly predispose one to addiction, etc. But bad
health in general can get you unhoused, and there's an epidemic of chronic
illness. Delaying gratification and a good IQ aren't sufficient to pave your
way in the world.

------
throw-far-away
"Homeless" for 9 years in the Valley. AMA.

------
ryanmercer
>You can start by not judging the homeless.

Instead of flying out the gate accusing people of judging homeless, consider
this:

Not everywhere is like San Francisco where you have actual homeless people
living in tent/tarp hovels on sidewalks in busy neighborhoods, come to
downtown Indy and many of the 'homeless' people you find randomly around are
absolutely not homeless and simply know they can make much easier money off of
people coming/going from bars and restaurants. The bulk of the properly
homeless people congregate around the Wheeler Mission shelter downtown, or are
in suburban neighborhoods spread out over 368 (three hundred and sixty eight)
square miles.

If there isn't a big event downtown, or it's a slow bar/restaurant night,
you'll notice there's considerably fewer of them. If the weather is harsh,
you'll notice there's considerably fewer of them.

A few years back we passed a law (here's an article how it was only partially
effective [https://www.wthr.com/article/panhandling-law-loophole-
lets-r...](https://www.wthr.com/article/panhandling-law-loophole-lets-
roadside-begging-continue) ) here preventing people from pan handling within
so many feet of intersections, guess what happened? Within a month they were
completely gone, they quickly discovered they couldn't make worthwhile money
that far away from the stoplights and stopped. I used to say multiple every
day on my commute, now I only ever see the occasional people in suits
'collecting donations' _cough_ bullshit _cough_ for their 'ministry' and they
will just pop up at a busy intersection with a long light for an hour or two
because they know they have a very short window until they get run off by
police.

What I'm getting at is, a lot of 'homeless' people get judged because there
are a considerable amount that aren't actually homeless in many places. I
honestly believe I've NEVER seen a homeless person on the street until I
visited San Francisco in June and saw tent/tarp cities and people passed out
on the middle of sidewalks in broad daylight.

Here in Indy the common homeless you'll see have relatively clean nice
clothes, will usually have some sort of phone, look well fed, shoes in great
condition, and sometimes are considerably overweight. In San Francisco I saw
people in filthy clothes, a few people had shoes that were beyond shot and had
clearly been worn well beyond their useful life, that were often pushing being
underweight. From my window at the Proper I watched a man sleep on the
sidewalk all night, when public transportation started running in the morning
he got up and paced the sidewalk wrapped Assasin's Creed-style in his blanket
with sneakers that looked nearly as old as I am, that guy was legitimately
homeless, the feelings I have for the 'homeless' in Indy are nothing what like
I felt for that man, watching him for an hour or so over the course of 12
hours left me in a funk for days, the 'homeless' here you walk by thinking "I
bet he makes more in a few hours on the weekend than I will in a day of work".
Truly homeless people here aren't a common site in public unlike what I saw in
a day and a half in San Francisco. There's absolutely a homeless population
here but the bulk of 'homeless' that we see are fakers, so we get conditioned
to judge.

They're also attempting to pass more legislation to end panhandling downtown
as it's still very much a problem
[https://www.indystar.com/story/news/politics/2018/09/14/indy...](https://www.indystar.com/story/news/politics/2018/09/14/indy-
proposal-seeks-eliminate-panhandling-downtown/1303768002/)

~~~
DarkTree
> If there isn't a big event downtown, or it's a slow bar/restaurant night,
> you'll notice there's considerably fewer of them. If the weather is harsh,
> you'll notice there's considerably fewer of them.

You observe this and the conclusion you make is that, 'many of the 'homeless'
people are absolutely not homeless and simply know they can make much easier
money off of people coming/going from bars and restaurants.'

or maybe they are homeless and know that their best bet of survival is going
to the places with the most people willing to help them out.

or maybe harsh weather means that they aren't capable of being out in the open
exposed to the elements, and are instead hunkered down somewhere where they
can at least get minimal shelter.

I think the point of the article is that your surface conclusions from simple
observations are probably not entirely accurate, and more likely a false
assumption made by someone who has never experience homelessness and can't
possibly know the motives or circumstances of that population.

~~~
ryanmercer
>You observe this and the conclusion you make is that, 'many of the 'homeless'
people are absolutely not homeless and simply know they can make much easier
money off of people coming/going from bars and restaurants.'

The homeless population in Indianapolis congregates around the homeless
shelters, not around businesses where police will tell them to keep it moving.
As such most people here never witness the real homeless, where San Francisco
you have tents alongside billion dollar businesses and police walking around
people asleep on the sidewalk.

My point is, this article is shaming people for 'judging homeless' and that in
some cities, the visible 'homeless' are often not homeless and are in fact con
artists.

"Hey how dare you judge someone" well, when the ones many people are exposed
to are scammers and not legit you get conditioned to be extremely wary of any
person presenting as homeless.

Again, we passed a LAW here to discourage these scammers from making money by
making it a crime to panhandle at intersections
[https://www.wthr.com/article/panhandling-law-loophole-
lets-r...](https://www.wthr.com/article/panhandling-law-loophole-lets-
roadside-begging-continue)

And they are working on legislation to go after the panhandling downtown as
well
[https://www.indystar.com/story/news/politics/2018/09/14/indy...](https://www.indystar.com/story/news/politics/2018/09/14/indy-
proposal-seeks-eliminate-panhandling-downtown/1303768002/)

~~~
selectodude
Criminalizing homelessness doesn't end homelessness.

~~~
ryanmercer
They aren't 'criminalizing homeless'. They're making it illegal to set up at
busy intersections walking up and down cars "hey spare some change, spare some
change" and from harassing people (I mean HARASSING) people downtown when they
enter/leave businesses.

The common ploy downtown, since the smoking ban took effect, was to find
groups of smokers "hey can I bum a cigarette" or "hey can I get a light". If
you engage them, with a yes or a no, they then starting asking if you have any
money or try to sell you cheap plush toys.

I am all for solving the homeless problem, I was profoundly impacted after
going to San Francisco and seeing people literally sleeping on sidewalks. It's
a huge problem and unfortunate HOWEVER people absolutely abuse the charity of
others this is why cities like Indianapolis have passed laws about
panhandling.

My whole damn point in this thread is the author is accusing people of
'judging homeless', my point is MANY people have never experienced proper
homelessness, they've experienced con artists and addicts that BELLIGERENTLY
attempt to extract money out of people. When your experience is primarily with
those types, you get jaded reeeeeeallllll quick.

This article reads like

'I was homeless once and that makes me better than you, listen up while I
judge you because some people judge homeless people'.

June 24th 2018, at 33 years of age, is the first time I have ever seen someone
sleeping on a sidewalk or the street. In San Francisco. The first time I've
ever seen someone living in a tent or improvised tarp and cardboard tent, was
on June 24th 2018 at 33 years of age in San Francisco.

While I have seen actual homeless people here in Indy, it was never in a
tent/tarp/lean to on a sidewalk or street, never someone's camp in an alley,
it was seeing people milling about outside of a homeless shelter when they are
made to leave until night and never once while in that area was I ever hit up
for money. I have however been hit up, and driven by people with signs,
countless times in other areas by people that looked absolutely nothing like
the men outside of the Wheeler mission or the individuals I saw in San
Francisco. Unless they pan handlers just abruptly became homeless, the simple
state of their shoes and the cleanliness of their clothes and person screamed
they were running a con unlike the legitimate homeless people I have
encountered.

