
Uber may have to add tipping feature in NYC - prostoalex
http://www.businessinsider.com/uber-may-have-to-add-tipping-feature-in-nyc-2017-4
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crazygringo
To users, one of the great appeals of Uber (and other similar services) is its
simplicity. Tips are ridiculous and arbitrary, and getting out of a car
_without_ having to think about that is a huge win for users.

Ratings already replace tips as an incentive for good service, in a far more
transparent and actionable way.

And if drivers start getting tips regularly, you can guarantee their overall
earnings won't go up -- Uber will simply pay them even less, because they can.
Whether payment is technically part of a base fare or tip doesn't do a thing
to change the law of supply and demand.

(Example -- how restaurants pay waiters far less than minimum wage, and are
legally allowed to, because the tips make up for it.)

Moving back to tips is a _huge_ step backwards -- especially when forward-
thinking restaurants in NYC are moving away from them as well.

~~~
sailfast
I use Lyft these days primarily _because_ I have the opportunity to tip the
driver for great service without using cash. I don't believe ratings
(especially Uber ratings) are meaningful at all because it's either five star
or you're fired, and as a customer you pay the same rate for terrible service
as you do for excellent service. I don't believe tips are an excuse for
getting around the base fare in this case or for avoiding min wage laws.

Being able to easily tip a driver for exceptional service is great, makes me
feel better as a customer, and provides an incentive for drivers beyond stars.
What's the harm in making it easy if your base rate is the same? As long as
it's not an expectation I think it works quite well.

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jasode
_> What's the harm_

I think the issue is the opposite outcome of your scenario: _" As long as it's
not an expectation"_

It _will_ become an expectation. Many people find tipping a hassle and they
don't want drivers using a new social standard to guilt them into it.

Also, any discretionary tip _amounts_ become another datapoint for drivers to
give bad ratings to riders. ("Oh she only gave me a 15% tip instead of a 30%
tip so I rate her 1 star!")

~~~
aanm1988
This is easily countered by requiring drivers to rate passengers to receive
the tip.

~~~
jasode
So now the "passenger ratings" become worthless because the Uber drivers won't
rate less than 5 stars for fear of retaliation by a customer giving a low tip
amount. Also, instead of the rider immediately exiting the car and be on her
way, she has to sit and wait for the driver to rate, and then she has to
submit a tip.

The combination of driver/rider ratings _and_ tipping leads to little social
games of petty blackmail.

~~~
aanm1988
again, easily solved.

1\. send tip 2\. driver sends rating 3\. tip and rating available.

~~~
jasode
So now the rider can give $0 as a tip (if the Uber allows that option) and the
rider doesn't have to worry about retaliation of a bad rating from the driver.
Game theory is fun.

To generalize, if people disagree with an app's user interface (e.g. tips),
both sides perform little acts of rebellion against it.

If Uber app _does not_ have tips, some Uber drivers rebel by hassling riders
for not using Lyft which has a tipping option or asking for cash tips on the
side. This annoys the passengers.

If the apps _does_ have tips, some riders rebel by paying $0 because they
think the whole idea is stupid. This annoys the drivers.

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fishnchips
I honestly wish there was a separate app to tell me when (and how much) to tip
and when not to tip when in the US. As a European, I'm always baffled by folks
expecting tips in weirdest (at least by my standards) of circumstances.

~~~
freehunter
The best rule of thumb is if someone has transported something you own. You
tip a waiter at a restaurant because they brought you your food, but you don't
tip at McDonalds because you go up to the counter to get your own food, it's
not brought to you. You tip a pizza delivery guy because he brought it to you,
but you don't tip if you went and picked it up yourself. You tip a bellhop (or
porter) at a hotel if they bring your luggage to your room, but you don't
usually tip the doorman. You would tip a valet who parks your car for you. A
restaurant is 10%-20% of the bill, a porter is $1-$2 per bag they have to
carry. $2 is fine for a valet, $2 every time they bring your car to you. You
don't have to tip when they take your car.

There are some places where people tip merely because there is a tip jar
available... usually you just dump small change into there (the coins you get
back or maybe a dollar). Starbucks comes to mind: there's no reason to tip at
Starbucks other than the fact that there is a tip jar sitting out. If you're
not used to tipping culture, ignore it. Same thing with ice cream shops or
take-out windows. Absolutely no reason for there to be a tip jar there other
than they're trying to guilt you into paying more than the advertised price.

There are certain situations where you might tip for extraordinary service
rendered. You don't tip a doorman for opening a door, but you can tip if he
calls a taxi for you. You don't have to tip at Starbucks, but if you ordered
an extraordinarily complicated drink and they got the order right, a tip is
called for. I usually tip even at take-out restaurants if I'm picking up an
order late at night while they're getting ready to close the restaurant, or if
it's a holiday and I feel bad that they're stuck working.

Some people get _really_ mad if you don't tip a waiter. People rarely get mad
if you forget to tip anyone else. So if you're confused, just tip your waiter
10% or 20% of the bill if they brought the food to you and forget any other
tipping. If someone complains, just say you're European and aren't clear on
the rules.

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crazygringo
That explains it for food -- but you also _always_ tip bartenders (just like
waiters, essentially their entire income is tips, so stiffing them is just as
bad), taxis, barbers/hairdressers and massage therapists.

~~~
aanm1988
> stiffing them is just as bad

So not bad at all. It's in no way my responsibility to cover their wages. If
the bar wants to raise prices a bit compensate then fine, but tipping is a
ridiculous practice.

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lightbyte
I hope they dont end up having to do this. Why should users subsidize driver's
wages if Uber isn't paying them enough? Uber should instead give the drivers a
bigger cut, and if needed up their rates to make up for it.

~~~
freehunter
I agree. I understand the reason why tipping exists in the restaurant industry
and that there are special laws surrounding tipping and minimum wage there,
but in my opinion the future should be moving towards eliminating the need for
tipping. Businesses adding tipping to their existing business model is, in my
opinion, moving in the wrong direction. It's hard for tip-based businesses to
move in a tipless direction, but the best way to begin phasing that out is to
not start requiring tips in the first place. Once they start allowing tips,
they're really never going to get away from employees demanding tips and
customers seeking lower prices even if adding in a tip makes the prices the
same.

If you need to pay your employees more, they should get paid more. Tips is a
bad way of handling employee compensation. Tips should be reserved for
extraordinary service rendered, not the main way of paying your employees.

~~~
pavel_lishin
> _I understand the reason why tipping exists in the restaurant industry_

Why _does_ it exist?

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freehunter
Because wait staff makes less than minimum wage with the expectation that they
will make up for it with tips. It's not a good excuse, it's just what happens
to be enshrined in the law. It's really just a way for restaurants to cheap
out and not pay their employees a proper wage.

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fvrghl
I live in NYC, and at this point I rarely use Uber. This is one more reason
not to.

When I call an Uber, I have to wait N minutes for the car to come. If I want a
cab, I step outside my apartment and flag one down. Granted, I live in
downtown, so that wouldn't work as well in the other boroughs.

Uber also surges. Yellow cabs are always the same price. It's usually cheaper
than Uber.

~~~
brandonjb
Also, the Curb app works really well. I haven't yet used to request a cab, but
when you get in one you just enter the a six digit code from the screen into
the app and it automatically takes care of the fare and adds a default tip
(which you can adjust).

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Flammy
If you think Uber "must" do this if required by law, you don't get UX...

They could almost certainly comply with any law like this by adding a tiny
little "Tip your driver" link in your receipt, which would be seen and used by
.001% of riders...

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pavel_lishin
Can't wait for the whole ride to turn into hearing the driver's explanation of
why Uber allows tipping now, and why the driver deserves 30%.

~~~
smm2000
I will give 1 star and zero tips to any driver that mention tips even once.
Tips is one of the things I hate the most about US.

~~~
s5fs
Last week I caught an Uber to the airport and the driver asked me why I didn't
use Lyft, then proceeded to somewhat guilt me for not using their app, because
it allowed tipping. Really shitty and awkward ride.

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mikeash
If they're concerned that drivers aren't being paid enough, why not regulate
minimum wages or fares instead of the arbitrary randomness of tipping?

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oh_sigh
Minimum wages are already regulated.

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mikeash
Apparently they don't think they're high enough.

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oh_sigh
That's fair, but it is a different issue from wages not being regulated.

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mikeash
Well no, it's a minor variation on the same thing. If they think wages are too
low, regulate them higher.

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douche
Dumb, dumb, dumb. If anything, we should be trying to remove the expectation
of tipping, and price shit appropriately for what it actually costs.

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Grue3
Disgusting. Not only is this harmful practice often enforced by social
pressure, now they want to make it into a law. Makes me glad to live in a
country where tipping is not so widespread.

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oh_sigh
I wouldn't mind this feature, so long as the drivers have to rate you before
they find out if/how much you tipped them.

~~~
Flammy
I believe Lyft allows tipping (or editing the 'given' tip) up to 24 hours
after the ride.

~~~
oh_sigh
I would also take that. I just don't want to see a situation where drivers can
effectively hold a users ratings hostage to make sure they get a tip.

