
Tesla's Screen Saga Shows Why Automotive Grade Matters - tomohawk
https://www.thedrive.com/tech/27989/teslas-screen-saga-shows-why-automotive-grade-matters
======
neya
The first time I discovered automotive grade was when I was designing my own
in-car infotainment system using a HTML based interface, a few years ago. It
worked really, really well for a long time. And then, summer came, I got the
magic smoke from my unit. Turns out, the amplifier IC died. But, I did more
research as amplifiers were actually supposed to heat up and I had cooling
fans in place. What killed it wasn't the heat, but the sudden variations in
temperature - Eg. when you use A/C for a while and leave your car in the hot
sun. The manufacturer literally recommended to use the automotive grade
version of the IC for in-car usage. Silly me.

In the end, I never really got to finish the project because of the rabbit
hole it became.

But remember, I'm a hobbyist. I have an electronics background, but that's
about it. To see a huge gigantic company of this size and reputation pursue
this kind of mistake that has real impact on paying customers is astounding. I
mean, I like Musk and the work he's doing, but this doesn't seem right (just a
personal opinion). I hope the customers don't have to bear this for Tesla's
mistake.

~~~
devy
> To see a huge gigantic company of this size and reputation pursue this kind
> of mistake that has real impact on paying customers is astounding.

It's a conscious decision, probably due to cost/production volume concerns.
Musk had pulled this kind of tricks before with lithium-ion batteries before
(remember the early Tesla fires?), they were initially using consumer grade
laptop batteries (with a highly energy density/weight ratio at the time but
more prone to fire and explosion comparing to other manufacturer's automotive
grade lithium-ion battery chemistry, granted Tesla might have improved.)

And honestly, the cost of automotive thermal grade 2 certified central display
for 17-inch TFT screen was probably (still is I suspect) cost-prohibitive for
a low margin auto industry.

What's really astounding to me is the "cabin overheat protection" feature. As
the article pointed out, what this really is Tesla trying to prevent the non-
automotive grade screen from failing, even though it's touting for protecting
dogs and children at extremely hot summer days. It regulates the cabin
temperature at +40C, but that's the temperature children's organ will start
failing.

~~~
privateSFacct
I used to work summers in the Caribbean - organs failing at 104 is a pretty
much total lie

~~~
Aromasin
>organs failing at 104 is a pretty much total lie

Actually it is a very well recorded phenomenon. Just because you and the
people you work with may have adapted well does not mean that it is universal
by any means. People die in heat waves regularly; normally diabetics with
peripheral neuropathy who can't sweat enough to drop their internal
temperature or people with heart problems who can't take the additional stress
of lowering their temperature. [1] [2] [4]

"Heat related mortality is similar in hot and cold parts of western Europe and
in hot and cold parts of the United States. This implies that the populations
of hot regions have adjusted by physiological or other means to their hotter
summers."[3]

Also, the metric for organs failing at 104 is entirely correct, just not with
regards to external body temperature. Your organs will undoubtedly fail if
your _internal_ temperature is 104F/40C. I've had sepsis with a temperature of
40.9C and I would have died if it wasn't for quick treatment from the doctors.

Quick anecdote; if you're ever in the situation where your body temperature
starts to get that high, scream and shout until you get an actual doctor on
hand - I had nurses who had no idea of the severity of my condition and would
have left me to die through shear negligence. I was lucky enough that the
surgeon for my leg injury decided to check how it was healing, and rushed to
call in a team of 4 or 5 doctors to stabilise me as I went into shock from
hyperthermia. Spent the next 24 hours covered with cold towels and ice swapped
out regularly by some very apologetic nurses.

[1]
[https://emj.bmj.com/content/22/3/185](https://emj.bmj.com/content/22/3/185)

[2]
[https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/07/130716-heat...](https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/07/130716-heat-
wave-dehydration-stroke-summer-sweat/)

[3]
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC192832/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC192832/)

[4]
[https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/320226.php](https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/320226.php)

~~~
mynameisvlad
> Also, the metric for organs failing at 104 is entirely correct, just not
> with regards to external body temperature.

Then it's not correct _in this context_ , where everyone else was talking
about external temperature.

~~~
Aromasin
104F external is still relevant in this context if we're talking about
venerable people that can't regulate their internal temperature down from
this; those being some children, elderly, diabetics, or pets. Their
temperature keep rising until it hits this 104F. That's why I commented - it's
not just semantics.

------
RandallBrown
I used to work on MyFord Touch at Microsoft and this was a constant
discussion. "Why do we have such terrible touchscreens, when Tesla has such
great ones?"

I think Tesla made the right decision because while it's certainly costing
them a lot of money to deal with, the screens in most cars (especially back
then) were so bad that it probably would have been worse for their brand.

~~~
dominicl
The swing of the article "Look we told you so" really rubs me the wrong way.
But it seems to represent the view of a large part of the Automotive industry.
Instead of driving innovation forward, they shy away of the problems that
introducing such innovation could have. Instead it seems the industry relies
on shaming innovators for the issues of first generation future tech. This
reminds me a lot of Steve Ballmer mocking the first iPhone:
[https://youtu.be/eywi0h_Y5_U](https://youtu.be/eywi0h_Y5_U)

The most likely outcome is that they will figure it out, and much earlier than
any of their competitors.

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
Buying off the shelf parts is not innovation. Especially when they are not
suited to purpose and you ignore the vendor's own reliability figures.

~~~
azhenley
I agree, but I bet we begin seeing other car companies using large displays
and suddenly display manufacturers will start selling properly-designed, large
displays.

~~~
bilbo0s
Well, just to be fair, that's something that would have happened with or
without Tesla. You saw those prototype screens at auto shows like Detroit
years ago. Crucially, the prototypes were all automotive grade.

In this case, Tesla simply wanted to be ahead of the curve. Worked for a
while, then the known failure rate of the parts caught up.

Whether or not it was worth it depends on the strategic intent and whether or
not that bet paid off. We'd really need more information to make that call.
And Tesla is not going to give anyone on this thread access to the strategic
and financial information necessary.

~~~
kkarakk
Most cars STILL have garbage grade(usability wise) ugly looking touchscreen
interfaces, i think you over estimate tesla's competition

~~~
miskin
Yes, but this is the point - they stick to ugly looking touchscreens that are
guaranteed to work. They could take screens from some tablet for few bucks,
but they know that when they sell 100000 of cars and 20% would fail within two
years it would cost them a lot to fix within warranty. If they start to fail
after warranty, it would be huge impact on their good will and resale value on
those cars would be damaged.

------
Rebelgecko
SpaceX has had similar issues with using industrial grade parts in situations
where their competitors typically use aerospace grade ones [1]. Although in
their case the failures are a bit more visually spectacular than some yellow
stripes [2]

[1]:
[https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/public_...](https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/public_summary_nasa_irt_spacex_crs-7_final.pdf)

[2]:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuNymhcTtSQ&t=3m](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuNymhcTtSQ&t=3m)

~~~
Dylan16807
They did a whole batch of testing and a bunch of those struts failed at
similarly abysmal fractions of rated load. Is that really "industrial grade"?

~~~
taneq
No, that's "a bad batch."

The issue here (as a sibling post points out) is QA.

~~~
Dylan16807
And "industrial grade" includes parts where the manufacturing is that
unreliable and nobody has tested them either?

~~~
darkpuma
As evidenced by that explosion, yes.

~~~
Dylan16807
I don't see how the explosion helps distinguish between "industrial grade" and
"below industrial grade"?

~~~
darkpuma
The distinction is between aerospace grade and industrial grade. Aerospace
grade is definitely not "below industrial grade". Aerospace grade parts will
be subjected to far more rigorous testing.

The problem SpaceX had was using industrial grade parts when they should have
used aerospace grade parts.

~~~
Dylan16807
The post I was replying to was making a distinction between aerospace grade
and industrial grade.

I was looking at the details of the problem, and suggesting that those parts
were _neither_ aerospace grade nor industrial grade, but something lower
still.

Non-rigorous testing is a reasonable thing for "industrial grade". I am not
convinced that being far under half of the rated strength is a reasonable
thing for "industrial grade".

------
bcatanzaro
I have one of these yellow screens on my Model S. Tesla told me twice over the
past 3 months they would be replacing it under warranty very soon. I'm
disappointed to hear they're walking this back.

~~~
toomuchtodo
I also have a Model S with this occurring on my v2 MCU. I was told by a
service tech they were collecting VINs, and would have a fix available this
year. I opted out of arbitration when I took delivery of the vehicle, so I
intend to sue in small claims court to have it replaced if Tesla does not
perform the repair as a warranty claim. Waiting for a fix I'm fine with. Being
stuck with it in a $100k car that is less than a year old I am not.

~~~
symmitchry
Honest question: I'm surprised at such a hard stance against what I perceive
to be an "early adopter" product. Did you not feel that buying a Tesla was a
gamble?

~~~
Lazare
Being an early adopter generally means paying a premium price without a lot of
confidence that the product will be as useful as it looks, or that any
promised ecosystems will appear.

People who bought an iPhone shortly after launch paid $600 with no idea that
the app store would appear and become what it did. For all anyone knew, the
iPhone would go the way of the Newton or the Zune. Two years later, the same
phone was retailing for $200 with a proven track record and an exploding
ecosystem of apps.

What being an early adopter _doesn 't_ mean is that the item may not be fit
for purpose. If early iPhones had never taken off, and the product line was
cancelled, that's your bad luck; you took a gamble when you bought it. If the
screens had just not been rated for mobile use and had leaked LCD fluid into
people's pockets, that's _not_ part of the gamble.

Tesla's appeal to early adopters, but that's not an excuse for product
defects.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
> People who bought an iPhone shortly after launch paid $600

I remember paying $300 at launch I think...that was the AT&T locked one but
back then it was easy to unlock.

The $600 ones weren't available until much much later when they started
selling off contract unlocked phones directly.

~~~
FPGAhacker
The 4GB iPhone 1 was $499, with contract. The 8GB iPhone 1 was $599, with
contact. A few months after launch they lowered the price by $200 and gave
store credit to the people that paid the higher price.

~~~
sofaofthedamned
It was £99 iirc in the UK but you had to get it activated in-store for a
seriously pricy contract. Until somebody worked out how to jailbreak it, at
which point it was the bargain of the year.

------
castratikron
Apparently these Teslas log to the eMMC so much that after a few years the
part wears out. The screen goes black and the car falls back into limp mode.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-7b1waoj9Q](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-7b1waoj9Q)

~~~
sschueller
I saw that as well and I find that scarry. Something so basic that should
never happen. I wonder what else was ignored or mismanaged and might kill
someone one day.

~~~
qball
>I wonder what else was ignored or mismanaged and might kill someone one day.

[https://i.redd.it/kv4y1j3gjut21.jpg](https://i.redd.it/kv4y1j3gjut21.jpg)

 __This WILL kill someone. __It 's not a question of _if_ , it's a question of
_when_ , and it's _intentional_.

Maybe the people responsible for that decision will see the inside of a jail
cell, or maybe they won't- but the fact of the matter is that the presence of
this "feature" is negligence at best, much like this case where bricking your
car when something unrelated to its core functionality dies.

~~~
wil421
I researched Tesla’s “bricking” and not starting after seeing that image on
reddit. Turns out it can’t happen while driving and means something failed mid
upgrade while the car isn’t in use.

Maybe I’m wrong, but the Telsa forums were absolutely livid when a poster used
the word brick. His car was in state where it couldn’t start or upgrade again.

~~~
forgottenpass
>Turns out it can’t happen while driving and means something failed mid
upgrade while the car isn’t in use.

Are the upgrades user initiated? I've had (or seen) enough productions and
live events degraded or interrupted by the windows autoupdater to be terrified
of the idea of "isn't in use" updates.

~~~
wil421
From my limited Telsa knowledge they were user initiated and your able to
decline them. Meaning, you wouldn’t be stuck at the store if you come outside
and all of the sudden your car has to update.

Perhaps some updates need to be done overnight?

------
Animats
It's not surprising they had problems with a large screen. Large multilayered
sandwiches of different materials have thermal expansion problems. Not
everything will expand at the same rate, which means internal stresses as
temperature cycles. Large size means the difference in length across the
longest dimension will be much larger than for a small device. This breaks
bonds and seals.

Solar panels have the same problem, and they have "expansion joints" to deal
with it.[1] Hard to do that for one seamless screen.

[1] [https://www.pveducation.org/pvcdrom/modules-and-
arrays/therm...](https://www.pveducation.org/pvcdrom/modules-and-
arrays/thermal-expansion-and-thermal-stresses)

------
femto113
I've long wished for a "slot your iPad in here" solution for this sort of
thing. Sure it might not stand up to automotive grade punishment, but you can
remove it when leaving the car in the sun and if it breaks it is easy to
replace and much cheaper than custom parts (thanks to Apple's economies of
scale).

~~~
jstandard
I've worked on "Bring Your Own Device" concepts together with Honda.[1] There
are plenty of wins for consumers in this type of setup.

Automakers have taken notice that people are using their phones for an
increasing share of infotainment functions.

The tough, time-consuming parts are working through the supply chain to build
out the connectivity and "happy coexistence" of phone and car. Also, I've yet
to find a UX which blends physical, voice, and touchscreen controls while
accounting for their strengths, weaknesses, and learnability. Tesla included.

1:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnMwI6SGAOg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnMwI6SGAOg)

~~~
femto113
Cool! That's pretty much exactly what I'm imagining, except tablet sized
instead of phone sized.

------
Marsymars
Cars are a tough environment for electronics. Asides from the other examples
mentioned in the article, my Ford's monochrome non-touch LCD turns into an
illegibly garbled mess in the cold (below -20°C) until the car warms up.

~~~
taneq
I've seen this same effect a lot when talking about Teslas. Any failure on
their part is instantly chalked up to alleged poor practices, laziness, and
general lack of care or professionalism, whereas an identical failure on the
part of an established manufacturer is shrugged off as "oh well, sometimes
parts fail."

(Take the issue with fires, for instance - Teslas catch fire far less
frequently than conventional cars, but every time it happens it's global
front-page news.)

~~~
GeorgeTirebiter
True. But another Tesla burst into flames in Hong Kong:
[https://qz.com/1618627/a-parked-tesla-model-s-burst-into-
fla...](https://qz.com/1618627/a-parked-tesla-model-s-burst-into-flames-in-
hong-kong/)

Parked gas cars don't usually burst into flames.

~~~
LeonM
> Parked gas cars don't usually burst into flames.

Usually not, no. But every now and then, they do, just like electric cars.
It's hard to say which type of vehicle burns down more often, the sample size
is small and there are so many more petrol powered cars than electric powered
cars.

Electric and petrol powertrains have different failure modes. An electric car
can fail while being parked, which is less likely to happen on petrol cars
(and if so, it's usually caused by an electrical failure in the car). However,
petrol powered cars have a higher chance of bursting into flames while in
operation due to the compination of high temperature components and
pressurised fuel being close to each other.

A car (being petrol or electric) has a high density energy storage. Whenever
that enegry can no longer be contained, bad things happen. Personally, I'd
prefer my car burning down while being parked over bursting into flames when
I'm driving it.

------
ec109685
The Tesla Model S we've had since 2015 hasn't had any problems with its
screen, despite being driven in California. This article's conclusion was
strange. Without that Touch Screen, none of what makes Tesla a Tesla would
have been a problem since it would have been controlled with un-upgradeable
knobs, switches and buttons.

I agree with the comments here that Tesla should make it right for the
customers though.

~~~
cma
Do you park it in a garage or out in the sun?

~~~
ec109685
Garage mostly, but not exclusively. I have never worried about this.

------
jcfrei
Great article. These appear to be the exact kind of engineering lessons you
would expect a new company like Tesla to learn the hard way. And it explains
why incumbent car manufacturers might seem less innovative on the surface.

------
sidcool
Tesla may not be the greatest company ever, but it's certainly not a fraud. I
think we should move on from that point if view. The I immense pressure from
shorters and fossil fuel lobby should have destroyed Tesla by now. But here
they are, surviving. If Tesla were to go bankrupt this year, I would still
call it a successful company.

~~~
Traster
The problem is that there's a massive gulf between fraud and successful
company. If Ford put Tesla's display in their latest vehicle people would be
going nuts about the fact Ford shipped such an unreliable item. Tesla has
essentially made the calculation that they can ship a sub-standard product and
cut corners. This is exactly the same attitude the early years of Uber had.
They'll certainly get away with cutting these corners in the short term, but
in the long term it's dishonest and it's not a sustainable way of doing
business.

~~~
rcMgD2BwE72F
>Tesla has essentially made the calculation that they can ship a sub-standard
product and cut corners

Do you know that almost all (if not _all_ ) other auto-manufacturers made the
calculation that they better lie to their customers about the emissions coming
out of their cars?

Who's really cutting more corners?

------
ajross
Read to the final paragraph:

> In fairness, other automakers have had issues with touchscreens as well.
> Just last year, Ford settled a class action lawsuit over a host of problems
> with its MyFordTouch systems and had previously extended warranty coverage
> for its SYNC systems. Cadillac had to recently revamp its CUE touchscreen
> system after numerous issues including "the dreaded spiderweb cracks." But
> [like, it's totally different for Tesla for reasons not having anything to
> do with screens or reliability][1]"

Basically, screens suck. Everyone's screens break. Apple and Samsung have
shipped junk screens too. But _Tesla 's_ bad screens are an existential
crisis. The auto industry hates them so much...

[1] Paraphrased.

~~~
emptyfile
>Basically, screens suck. Everyone's screens break. Apple and Samsung have
shipped junk screens too. But Tesla's bad screens are an existential crisis.

All screens suck but only one manufacturer put their entire control panel in
the screen... so yeah...

~~~
ajross
Right, so the whole "...shows why automotive grade matters" is a complete
fabrication. All screens suck. The article spends a ton of words on why the
particular panel Tesla picked was bad just to take it all back and pull a
switcheroo to a _design_ critique instead. In the last paragraph!

That's not honest journalism.

~~~
cma
What you're saying is several out of hundreds of different automotive grade
screens had problems too. And one out of one non-automotive grade screen
(Tesla's) also had problems. Not a large enough sample size, but things look
statistically better for the automotive grade ones.

------
_ph_
If you google the authors name "Edward Niedermeyer", you can find out that he
has a history of bad-mouthing Tesla in a long series of blog posts. So I would
take any allegations made by him with extreme care.

~~~
stonogo
He bad-mouths everyone. He's an analyst, not a cheerleader.

~~~
_ph_
Which means, that his publications shouldn't be mistaken for journalism.

------
scarejunba
> ...despite the fact that it held the temperature at +40C which is about the
> temperature where a child's organs will start shutting down...

I've been in hotter places than that as a child and my organs are still
functioning. Not that convincing a tale, got to be honest.

~~~
ummonk
That is the internal body temperature at which the organs will start shutting
down, but external (e.g. cabin) temperature can obviously go higher without
issues. Kind of disingenuous from the author.

------
EastSmith
So Tesla is selling:

\- electric vehicles

\- long range

\- self driving

\- big screens

I really wish they or somebody else focus on just the first two parts - long
range electric cars. No need for the AI or other fancy stuff.

~~~
dgzl
Do you think that by not giving a large touch-panel display, the car with
become more efficient?

~~~
EastSmith
It will definitely have one less problem as the article points out.

I also have a small touch infotainment screen in my car. Works great for
calls, music and navigation - that is all what I need it to do. I have not had
a single problem with it for about 4 years.

------
gnachman
I called Tesla service in December because of both displays delaminating. They
said they’d call me back, which of course they never did. This explains it, I
guess.

------
thrower123
A car with any kind of touchscreen for anything but non-essential functions is
a huge red flag for me. Because of the mandate for backup cameras, and the
dash space that the display for those takes up, I think I'm going to have to
stick to pre-2018 model years for as long as they let me.

I think it is incredibly unsafe that things like heat and radio controls have
been shifted to non-tactile touch inputs, rather than analog buttons and
knobs. But I am an old fogey that keeps at least one hand on the wheel and my
eyes on the road.

~~~
CarVac
That's what steering wheel controls are for.

~~~
ddingus
Maybe. Depends on how modal they are.

The primary issue with touch is the difficulty many people have using it by
feel, and or "muscle memory" alone. Typically, one needs to identify the UX
element desired, then touch, and then often verify the thing happened or
select after that.

Where it is modal, another whole layer of that interaction is needed, and or
driver needs to retain more state info. "Which screen is it on, and is it
currently available for me to use?"

Steering wheel controls can be better, but many of those do toggle through
various modes and the driver needs to glance at a small screen in the dash
cluster.

Doing that is generally superior to a touch only UX though.

On many cars, low importance functions are clumped into these kinds of UX.
Higher order things get their own control.

I drive a lot of different cars. New, old, and Tesla.

I thought the Tesla was spiffy, but did not think much of the big touch panel
for reasons I have given here.

My very favorite drives are on cars with great controls, and all of it working
with dim interior lighting. Just enough to see what needs to be seen, the rest
easily operated in a tactile way, night vision intact.

This is not to say touch is not useful in cars.

I think it can be and is.

This is to say touch has a very long way to go before it begins to seriously
challenge well designed buttons, levers and switches.

------
kwhitefoot
The problem with this article and many others on similar subjects is that
there isn't any real information about the prevalence of the problems that
they describe. Without that it's pretty much just angry bluster whether they
are describing problems in a Tesla or a Mercedes.

Is it one screen in a million that fails or one in ten? There is no way of
telling from the article.

~~~
dangrossman
As Tesla has only manufactured 150-200K Model S's to date and the article
cites multiple owners, you can definitively say the observed failures are not
one in a million.

------
akozak
What's the argument against just relying on "cabin overheat protection" to
keep the climate in spec? Seems like that would solve a lot of their supply
chain limitations at once with relatively minimal battery drain - though it
does seem wasteful to spend energy keeping electronics comfy in the sun.

~~~
mannykannot
I have a different issue with the "cabin overheat protection": claiming that
it is to "protect dogs and children" when, even if working as intended, it
could allow a car to reach a temperature dangerous to children, is highly
irresponsible -- even if Tesla also said that you should constantly monitor
the temperature to ensure that it is safe. There's no justification for this
sort of dissembling.

~~~
manicdee
Cabin Overheat Protection is separate to Dog Mode.

If you want to express outrage about abdication of responsibility at least be
talking about the relevant feature.

Cabin overheat protection is there to protect things left in the car like
electronics, and theoretically requires no user interaction.

Dog Mode allows the user to dial up the desired temperature and then walk
away. This is the actual dangerous feature, because the belief is that the air
conditioner will keep the temperature at the level you want it. This despite a
history of at least one police dog dying every month in the USA due to
equipment failures, and theirs dog cars have specially modified environmental
controls to maintain and monitor the temperature, including opening windows as
a last ditch temperature control effort. Even those systems fail sometimes.

And here is Tesla setting people up for failure using a single air conditioner
that is monitored remotely using an internet connection that is flakier than
filo pastry.

~~~
zaroth
The temperature is tracked locally, I assume you mean if the AC fails it
notifies you remotely?

It is a good question if, while in dog mode, if the car detects the
temperature exceeds the set point, will it lower the windows or try to notify
the owner?

Leaving your dog in the car for an extended amount of time is not a good idea,
and in many places is illegal. And yet, sometimes the safest place for your
dog is in the car.

Personally I haven’t used it yet, but I like the option of a big display
showing the interior temperature of my dog is in the car without me for a few
minutes.

~~~
manicdee
Yes, monitored remotely through the app on your phone, which may or may not
reflect the actual environment in the car at that moment.

FWIW is typical failure mode for an air conditioner is for the condenser to
fail, so the conditioner ends up over-heating air that hasn’t been cooled by
the condenser yet, resulting in the interior temperature hitting 60C in
minutes, so eg a police dog (typically a large-ish dog like German shepherds)
will be dead or dying when you come out to check on it fifteen minutes later.

The systems used in police dog vehicles include redundant components,
temperature monitoring and emergency actions like opening windows to allow
cool air to flow. Police around the USA still lose about one dog a month with
those specialist systems in place.

It’s only a matter of time until someone posts on the Tesla reddit that the
car killed their dog and the fans will dogpile on the poster telling them it’s
their fault for leaving the dog in the car in the first place.

~~~
Dylan16807
> so the conditioner ends up over-heating air that hasn’t been cooled by the
> condenser yet

Does that happen when you have no engine?

~~~
manicdee
Resistive heaters and heat pumps.

------
modeless
This person has taken the wrong lesson from the story. The actual moral of
this story is that the auto industry is too conservative and being a little
less conservative allows you to build one of the best cars in the world.

So a few touchscreens have yellow lines. The Tesla touchscreen is still
clearly better than any other car's touchscreen and if they'd done it this
guy's way they wouldn't have been able to ship it at all because the part
simply wasn't available then.

~~~
chipotle_coyote
Sorry, but if you're going to design a car that replaces not just the
infotainment system, not just the climate controls, but _the entire instrument
console_ with a touchscreen, then it would seem to me one of the places you
absolutely do not want to cut corners on is...the touchscreen.

"One of the best cars in the world" is obviously subjective, and there are
some ways in which Tesla is absolutely leading. But all of the innovation on
display in Teslas don't earn them a free pass on build quality issues.

~~~
zaroth
Is it fair to say they “cut corners”? They bought the best screen available at
the time at size they wanted, and then tested it in-house. It’s not like the
screen has terrible specs, but it is not rated to operate at 130°C.

So they tried adding software to keep the cabin below 50°C even when the car
is parked, but either it doesn’t work all the time or people turn the feature
off, of someone is parked in the sun long enough to run the battery below 20%.

The trade off was a higher rate of warranty repairs in order to build the car
they wanted to build.

I think in the case of the Model 3, partially how they solved it is through
special glass they used above the front seats. I’ve been wondering why the
glass is so unique above the front seats but not the same tint for the rest of
the roof glass. It’s very interesting — water droplets on the glass above the
front seats look almost blood red. Now I’m guessing it’s filtering to block IR
or other solar gain which might otherwise burn out the screen.

[https://images.app.goo.gl/DBaQeKoWkWTGYqk76](https://images.app.goo.gl/DBaQeKoWkWTGYqk76)

~~~
chipotle_coyote
According to the article the screen has _good_ specs -- but it doesn't _quite_
meet even the lowest-quality rating for automotive screens, and that sure
seems like it's the proximate cause for the thermal failures they're
experiencing.

I'm not sure whether it's fair to say they "cut corners," but I'm not sure
it's _not_ fair. The other alternatives could have been finding a supplier
willing to work with them on an oversized screen that met at least Automotive
Grade 4 standards, or being willing to redesign the instrument panel to take a
smaller screen. (Or two smaller screens.)

------
Reason077
I have an iPhone 6 which once had a third-party screen installed to replace a
cracked one.

The replacement screen looked great at first - indistinguishable from the
original one.

But over time it has developed exactly the same issue: a yellow
band/border/ring around the outside of the screen. I wonder if this is a wider
issue within the LCD industry, rather than just being specific to Tesla.

~~~
londons_explore
Yes, it's an issue with oxygen and moisture sealing the edge of the screen.

The yellowing will happen to all screens eventually, just heat speeds it up a
lot.

------
yitchelle
I hope that Tesla's attitude to using robust engineering principles does not
end up causing large amount of injuries or deaths. It is not just in the cars
that they produce, it is also the way their factories are run as well.

------
continuational
Can somebody point to a definition of the word "Saga" that isn't ... related
to vikings? I see it more and more and it's confusing me.

~~~
culturestate
What’s confusing? Sagas were long, epic stories and now we use the term
colloquially (sometimes hyperbolically) to describe complex events that occur
over a long period of time.

------
dingo_bat
I think traditional car manufacturers just don't advance the state of the art
in screens and other in other in-car electronics at a pace fast enough. They
are content with shitty 7 inch screens with faded colors, since their supplier
told them this is the best that can be done. You need someone like tesla to
force screen suppliers to catch up to the best screens, do the required
testing and make the best screens capable of withstanding heat and shock. It's
the same with the concept of an electric car and the concept of self driving.

~~~
netsharc
Ah yes, forced modernization, and the users are the beta testers of all this.

Sorry to all the yellow screen owners who won't get them replaced, and RIP
that dude that crashed into the concrete barrier.

~~~
hoseja
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year)

~~~
netsharc
Such a cheap rebuttal, and a misuse of numbers. Did you know pedestrians and
motorbikes are included in that stats? "But the numbers!"...

[https://medium.com/@MidwesternHedgi/teslas-driver-
fatality-r...](https://medium.com/@MidwesternHedgi/teslas-driver-fatality-
rate-is-more-than-triple-that-of-luxury-cars-and-likely-even-
higher-433670ddde17)

Whatever the numbers it's managed to save, Tesla's buggy self-driving software
has killed a few people for sure. How would you like that seal of approval on
your product?

------
kkarakk
All i know is that now when i see a car without a massive touchscreen in it i
end up thinking "really? in 2019? what should i pay 80 grand for a backwards
POS?"

now i know why these screens aren't more prevalent but still...tesla's
dashboard looks superslick

------
catchmeifyoucan
I think this is fine if the failure to success ratio is low for the parts.
Especially given that the failure here refers to failing pixels and doesn't
compromise safety.

Some quick math, if an industrial part costs $10, and an automotive part costs
$20, then for ten cars you save $100. Assuming that 20% of all your cars are
faulty, that's a $80 savings translation. With the remaining money, you could
spend $40 on R&D for a screen at the same price point with higher reliability
and still come out on top. However, at some point, you will reach a time where
the number of replacements that don't justify the design. For a bootstrapped
company, I don't think it's a bad bet, but it is time critical to find an
alternative before they start losing money.

~~~
vel0city
While this might be true, you then possibly have a very noisy 20% previous
customer base who may or may not buy your car again, and if noisy enough might
convince others your designs are shoddy and are not worth the premium price
tag you're trying to sell them for. Brands are not worth nothing.

~~~
catchmeifyoucan
Agreed, that this may not be a win for brand loyalty.

