

FedEx and UPS Refuse to Ship a Digital Mill That Can Make Untraceable Guns - mdturnerphys
http://www.wired.com/2015/02/fedex-mill-untraceable-firearms

======
Pinckney
Why is Mr. Wilson going out of his way to tell them what it's for?

"What are you shipping?"

"CNC Mill."

"Great, we'll be happy to ship that for you."

Don't try to confuse the customer service rep by saying things that have the
potential to confuse them; they don't need to know what it's meant for.

It's doubtful that UPS, at a high level, cares enough to ban this. Rather,
someone heard "something something GUN MACHINE," doesn't know anything about
the relevant law, and made a snap decision that was least likely to get them
in trouble.

~~~
damoncali
Wilson is in it for the PR, not the guns. He's an interesting fellow. It would
defeat his stated purpose if he didn't tell anyone.

~~~
mturmon
“This is a way to jab at the bleeding hearts of these total statists,” Wilson
told WIRED in October. “It’s about humiliating the power that wants to
humiliate you.”

What an appeal! So twisted in its approach. Where do I sign up to jab at some
bleeding hearts, humiliate them, STRIKE BACK!

~~~
0xdeadbeefbabe
And even if you believe it is a jab at the bleeding hearts of these total
statists you are still left with only part of an AR15, while these total
statists control the price of ammo (they probably don't). I reckon you could
jab them better by dirt farming.

~~~
damoncali
Think bigger and longer-term. He's not talking about guns, but removing the
ability of governments to regulate _anything_ physical. Could you print or
cast propellants and make caseless ammo? I bet with some effort you could.
Could you distribute that ability in a way that would be utterly impractical
to control by any government? Sure.

He's demonstrated the concept with simple things like gun magazines.
Theoretically, they're now out of reach of the government to control. Add in
more time and better technology, and this concept is potentially a big deal
for all manner of things. Interesting to think about at least.

Guns are just a current flash point that it's easy for people to get their
heads around. But who knows what tomorrow will bring that governments will try
to control only to find themselves unable to do so due to unskilled, cheaply
available, distributed manufacturing capability?

~~~
pjc50
Unlimited small arms proliferation? A great way to add to the destruction of
everywhere between Nagorno-Karabakh, Lagos and Nairobi.

~~~
sologoub
Civil wars and local conflicts have no shortage of weapons already. US is
practically swimming in firearms and so far that has produced no such war
here.

We do have a number of extremely terrible incidents with resulting loss of
life, many of these are very much preventable. My personal opinion, more laws
restricting distribution will not prevent these, but better mental health
services, safety tech and training will.

All this article really proves is that people who want to have a gun will have
a gun. It might be extremely difficult, but those hell-bent on it will still
succeed.

------
Navarr
TL;DR:

FedEx: “We are uncertain at this time whether this device is a regulated
commodity by local, state or federal governments. As such, to ensure we comply
with the applicable law and regulations, FedEx declined to ship this device
until we know more about how it will be regulated.”

UPS: A UPS spokesperson wrote in a statement that the company will only ship
guns and gun parts between holders of a federal firearms license. In a follow-
up statement, it confirmed that it won’t ship the Ghost Gunner either. “UPS
reserves the right to refuse to provide transportation service for, among
other reasons, any shipments that create legal, safety or operational
concerns,” writes spokesperson Dan Mackin. “UPS is continuing to evaluate such
concerns with regard to the transportation of milling machines used to produce
operable firearms but, at this point in time, will not accept such devices for
transportation.”

USPS: The US Postal Service didn’t immediately respond to questions about
whether they would allow the shipment of the Ghost Gunner or other potential
gunsmithing devices.

~~~
damoncali
The UPS guy has no idea what he's talking about. Literally millions of gun
parts are shipped to non-FFL holders (aka consumers) by UPS. As are live
ammunition, powder and primers. They'll also ship actual guns both to and from
non-licensed individuals as long as there is an FFL on _one_ end. (A gunsmith
is allowed to mail your gun back to you - although not to sell via mail
order).

~~~
maratd
The UPS guy is saying what UPS should say. Of course, the reality is that UPS
has no idea what's inside of all those boxes.

~~~
damoncali
They absolutely know. You have to pay a hazmat fee on the gunpoweder/ammo, for
example, and when you're shipping boxes out of a gun parts retailer, guess
what? Those boxes contain gun parts. The PR flunky is either lying or totally
misinformed - I'm guessing the latter.

~~~
maratd
You can go to the UPS store and ship an unmarked package there. So how would
they know?

~~~
damoncali
Well, I guess they'd have to ask. But the point is that they are very much
aware that they currently ship large quantities of guns, gun parts, and
ammunition to unlicensed people (legally) every single day.

------
ChuckMcM
I have to hand it to the Defense Distributed guys, they sure know how to turn
a non-story into headline news.

Short version: FedEx and UPS get worried about liability as DD tells them they
are mailing 'make your own gun kits' and decline to ship, _until they
understand where the ATF stands on the issue._

There are a ton of things you can't ship. A number of those things are pre-
cursor components to "bad things" be it bombs, weapons, or chemical compounds.
Guess who takes it in the shorts for shipping them? The shipper. So our
government has trained these folks to be conservative in what they will accept
until they have their collective backsides covered.

I get that DD is trying to foster some sort of conversation about how easy it
is to fabricate fire arms, but what I don't get it what they hope to achieve,
other than sales to people who are paranoid about having the 2nd amendment
repealed.

~~~
lambdacore
How exactly would the ATF have jurisdiction over a CNC mill? And what
liability would a common carrier be subject to for transporting a legal good?

~~~
ChuckMcM
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms [1] establishes rules and
regulations regarding the ownership, sales, manufacturing, and _transport_ of
firearms across state lines. Great article on them here on Wikipedia:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_Alcohol,_Tobacco,_Fir...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_Alcohol,_Tobacco,_Firearms_and_Explosives)

[edit] I didn't answer your question directly, they also determine what
"defines" a firearm, they are the folks with the whole serial number goes on
the receiver rule and that is a firearm. There is an ongoing "discussion" or
"debate" over how close you can get to finishing a receiver before it becomes
a receiver and thus a firearm by ATF rules. It is within the power of the ATF
to rule that a CNC mill that is pre-loaded with the ability to convert an
partially finished receiver into a finished receiver, is a controlled item.

[1] My grandfather once called it "the bureau of fun stuff"

~~~
damoncali
_It is within the power of the ATF to rule that a CNC mill that is pre-loaded
with the ability to convert an partially finished receiver into a finished
receiver, is a controlled item._

Are you sure about that? Under what law?

~~~
hga
This might or might not surprise you, but the BATFE essentially makes the law,
interpreting 8 decades of often unclear statutory law. The latest example of
this is their recent "On second thought, M885 ammo is bad"\---although the
statutory law sure seems to be clear to me, but I've come across lawyers on
our side who think it's debatable.

Challenging them is _very_ dangerous, they have an odd habit of using any and
all means to destroy people they get upset with, even their own agents, e.g.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Dobyns](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Dobyns)
And most Federal courts and judges are not exactly on our side.

Back when people were wondering how we could get "the people" upset enough
about the NSA et. al. to have the same effectiveness as "the NRA" (really, the
nation's gun owners), I pointed out more that a few atrocities would have to
be committed and publicized. That "worked" for us because the BATFE is
probably the dirtiest and nastiest of the Federal law enforcement agencies.

~~~
damoncali
But I can point to a law that allows them to regulate M855, or at least gives
them the wiggle room. I'm aware of no such law that even hints at their
ability to regulate machine technology.

------
falcolas
Do they ship lathes? How about CNC metal milling machines?

How, aside from the name, is this different? Strikes me as similar outlawing
nc because someone might use it to do a port scan against machines they don't
own.

~~~
ianlevesque
I agree that there doesn't appear to be any technical difference between this
CNC / 3D printer and others, but intent seems to matter a lot with the law.
These are clearly marketed and sold for the purpose of firearm construction.

~~~
damoncali
Except firearm construction is totally legal.

~~~
chc
Technically, yes. In practice, quite possibly no. AFAIK you can build a gun
for yourself legally, but you can't build a gun for sale without a license. A
machine like this seems like it would be used to make a lot of guns, which
implies trade, which raises the specter of illegal activity.

~~~
refurb
A DVD drive like this seems like it would be used to make a lot of DVD copies,
which implies trade, which raises the specter of illegal activity.

~~~
hga
That may turn out to be interesting.

The business model of this machine (well, aside from the advocacy/self-
promotion angle others describe) is that one person buys this, then allows
others to use it to finish their "80% receivers". (And then they do a hell of
a lot more work to turn it into a safe, functioning gun, but that's assembly,
not machining, a lot more people are good (enough) at the former than the
latter.)

~~~
mirimir
Why couldn't someone buy the thing, and then rent it to other hobbyists? Or
perhaps a serial resale network could develop. Eventually, I presume that
Defense Distributed would release designs for the mill itself.

~~~
damoncali
It's overkill. Completing a lower is doable with normal shop tools. DD is
making a point, not a product.

------
MichaelGG
So start another company that ships generic 3D printers. Put the mill in
there. Then ship the informational package and gun-related stickers in a
separate infokit.

It's pretty silly to think FedEx and UPS are technically capable of refusing
to ship based on the _capability_ of a printer. That's really deep inspection.

Jeez, just don't go around advertising that people can make guns on it. I'm
sure FedEx would refuse to ship my paper printers if I got a lot of press on
how you could use them to make your own currency.

------
Animats
The "Ghost Gunner" is a PR stunt. The whole project is to get media coverage.
As a CNC machine, it's junk. It's from the same people who 3D printed a crappy
gun.

The real deal is this: to get around US firearms laws, there's a mini-industry
selling AR-15 "80% lower receivers".[1] These are sometimes advertised as
"billets", but they're not unfinished castings. They're complete parts with a
few holes omitted. With a template and a drill press, you can finish them.
There's even a desktop router and jig combo to do that specific job. Costs
$159.[2]

The Ghost Gunner is a little CNC desktop router built to do that specific job
and not much else. It has small stepping motors and toothed rubber belts, like
a 3D printer. It doesn't have the rigidity of a real milling machine, so it
can't push a milling cutter sideways against resistance while holding
precision. You couldn't mill anything out of a block of aluminum with it. It
can drill holes of one size. That's all.

The site says that "pre-orders are sold out". They've been taking "non-
refundable" deposits. It's quite possible that they aren't really
manufacturing them, or they don't work very well, and want to claim they can't
ship the things so they don't have to deliver.

I looked into getting one of these because I do some machining, usually at
TechShop. (I'm into Teletype restoration and steampunk.) A low-cost little
home CNC mill would be nice for making small metal parts. This isn't a real
CNC mill. Roland has some nice desktop CNC mills, but they're much more
expensive than this thing. There's a Kickstarter project for a real 3-axis
desktop mill, but it's probably going to be priced around $2600. That's entry
level for milling aluminum. If they wanted to make money and milling machines,
rather than get press, there's a market for little CNC mills. That Kickstarter
is way oversubscribed.

That's why this is all a PR stunt.

[1] [http://www.80percentarms.com/](http://www.80percentarms.com/) [2]
[http://www.80percentarms.com/products/308-easy-
jig](http://www.80percentarms.com/products/308-easy-jig) [3]
[https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/178590870/the-nomad-
cnc...](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/178590870/the-nomad-cnc-mill)

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
Wait, it can't make the AR-15 part itself, it literally just drills the holes?
How... utterly useless.

------
f3llowtraveler
Sounds like they will ship CNC machines, just not the one sold by Defense
Distributed. Not cool.

The "regulatory uncertainty" line is the same cop-out used by banks regarding
Bitcoin-related businesses. Do we now, in America, assume that something is
illegal until the government explicitly tells us it's legal?

~~~
trhway
>Sounds like they will ship CNC machines, just not the one sold by Defense
Distributed. Not cool.

The guys just need to have an additional "doing business as" cuddly name like
"Tools for Local Sustainable Toy Milling and Crafting"

~~~
damoncali
If you read up on the guy, that's not what he wants. He doesn't care about
guns. He just wants to put manufacturing technology beyond the reach of the
law. He's got a bit of an anarchist bent. Guns are just the means to his end -
a convenient PR vehicle. In other words, he sort of wants people to talk about
banning this stuff.

