
Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most - prostoalex
https://www.wsj.com/articles/americans-have-shifted-dramatically-on-what-values-matter-most-11566738001?mod=rsswn
======
rco8786
33 here - Never cared much for religion..they look, act, feel like cults but
there's an approved list of these cults apparently. Having a kid changed my
life for the better but I was probably in the "not so important" boat before
that happened.

The big one for me is patriotism. When I was younger I was quite conservative,
very pro-USA, refused to believe that any country could possibly do anything
better than the way we were doing it. Then I started traveling and actually
experiencing the rest of the world, and all of those things just faded away.
I'm still an American - I love the 4th of July and believe in our country's
future. I just don't subscribe to the notion that the USA is best and that I
should be proud of it no matter what, or that American's are somehow special
relative to anyone else.

~~~
pacala
Patriotism is not believing your county is best. Patriotism is believing it's
worthwhile to strive to make your country better.

~~~
sixstringtheory
This is really well put, so much so that I searched to see if it was actually
a quote. Didn't find it, but did find an interesting one from Bernard Shaw
[0]: "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all
others because you were born in it."

I am not well read on him so don't know the context or his intention, but
after a quick scan of his wikipedia page I saw that he admired Hitler and
Stalin, professed a belief in dictatorship and criticized the Nuremburg trials
[1]. Would love to hear more from someone knowledgable on him.

In any case, I want to print your comment on stickers or tshirts or something.
Spot on!

[0]:
[https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/george_bernard_shaw_38692...](https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/george_bernard_shaw_386924)

[1]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Bernard_Shaw#1930s](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Bernard_Shaw#1930s)

~~~
pacala
Go for it!

------
pnathan
In the circles I watch and hang around, we've moved from a cynical nihilism
about government (nothing matters, elites always win) to a reckoning that we
have to invest time and energy in our governance to get it to work for us.

That age band is the 30-40 year olds, with a smattering of older and younger.
I would say we have gotten more idealistic, but also more pragmatic. We like
the ideals, we recognize that the country coasted when we were younger, now
it's time to take up the burden that the older generations didn't. Things
aren't going to just happen with a march here or a slogan there. We need to
invest ourselves, and this seems to be broadly understood.

Regarding religion - no observer is going to be surprised that religion is
collapsing in the US. No one should be surprised. I think we have some curious
turns ahead there, but I'll defer those to a theological/religious studies
audience.

And, of course, kids relates to the economic environment and the state of the
parents' mental health. If you're worried about providing for yourself and
you're a responsible human being, you are not going to have kids, because you
know you nee to provide for them too.

~~~
gremlinsinc
I flip flop back and forth.... I'm encouraged by the Blue Wave and AOC, and
the rise of Bernie/Warren, but at the same time I see corporations and Super
PAC's becoming more and more powerful in this country. I do like what RiseUp
is doing with anti-corruption campaigns across America. Ending the revolving
door of money in politics I think is the surest way towards a more fair
government.

I'd much rather have a farmer or astronaut or scientist as President who was
given 10 million for advertising and not allowed to fundraise as was all his
opponents than a system where the person with the most money wins. Even though
Sanders is very good at fundraising and grassroots fundraising on the left has
skyrocketed, we can't always count on that being the case.

As I said I flop back and forth, I'm encouraged, but at the same time I feel
like things are desparate in America. I freelance and I have gone through
periods of poverty when I have trouble finding clients.

I'm in one right now, sadly -- it also coincides with my periods of
depression, I'm pretty sure the depression is stress caused, and I've done
extensive therapy to learn coping mechanisms but I still feel the pain coming
on a few times a day lately.

I think I'll totally drop cynicism about politics when we get a real
progressive in the Oval office, or if Biden doesn't win and Warren or Bernie
does. Just the fact of the progressives beating the establishment would
totally lift my spirits and resolve. I'm hopeful that we do see more and more
progressives, and intellectuals run in 2020 and win. Guess we'll need to wait
and see how things pan out.

~~~
pnathan
> I think I'll totally drop cynicism about politics when we get a real
> progressive in the Oval office, or if Biden doesn't win and Warren or Bernie
> does. Just the fact of the progressives beating the establishment would
> totally lift my spirits and resolve. I'm hopeful that we do see more and
> more progressives, and intellectuals run in 2020 and win. Guess we'll need
> to wait and see how things pan out.

There's realism and there's cynicism. Realistically, your goals will not be
easily achieved. Realistically, many people are flat desperate. Cynicism says,
"why bother trying, it'll always be that way".

But I can tell you this: the current world didn't fall out of no where, it is
not static. Many activists in worked to build it this way.

------
jandrese
It is interesting that support for nationalism is still popular with the older
generations alongside their support for diversity, even after nationalism has
been co-opted by groups hostile to diversity.

The younger generations see "I support the USA" as "I support the policies of
the current administration", simply because that's how said supporters often
identify themselves.

I think if you asked the younger generations if they still believed in the
principles of freedom and democracy that the US represents that they would be
largely in favor of that stance, but feel that the current government is not
upholding those ideals in a way that they approve of.

~~~
cwperkins
With all due respect, I did not vote for the president but now find myself
more aligned with the Republicans than any 2020 Democrat. Its a smear that
they are anti-Diversity. A lot of the young men I know feel disenfranchised in
a system that does not value them even though they are not in any positions of
power. All are sympathetic to historical injustices and see the President
doing things like First Step Act and Opportunity Zones as legislation that
disproportionately benefits minority groups, but does not detract from other
groups. I think he's brash and unpolite, but a lot of people I know see this
as fighting back against an onslaught that is one-sided and doesn't get called
out.

~~~
metalliqaz
If you think that the way the president primarily is affecting minority groups
is via First Step Act and Opportunity Zones, then you are either confused or
willfully ignorant. His "me first" M.O. is based on stoking racial grievances
and animosity in his base. His actual economic policies align exactly with the
"swamp": funnel money to the wealthy. It sounds to me, frankly, that you are
simply seeing what you want to see.

~~~
cwperkins
I'd love to engage in any debate because ultimately I think that having
diverse viewpoints ultimately leads to the most ideal solution. And not just
Diversity of background, but diversity of bias is also important. I think the
single most important thing being accomplished at the moment is the rebuilding
of the middle class through bringing manufacturing back. It hasn't happened on
a large scale yet, but I'm optimistic that the next year will see a big
uptick. Building the middle class will be the best way to close the racial
wealth gap. I also live in an urban area in a gentrifying neighborhood and it
looks like some millenials are opting to settle. I think this is great for
integration as well as minorities moving to the suburbs. I also saw research
recently that has shown that gentrification has led to incomes in the area
increasing at rates that beat the national average which is also promising.

EDIT: Why was this comment downvoted without a reply? I want to spark a
discussion.

~~~
metalliqaz
> bringing manufacturing back

heh.

------
gremlinsinc
This is refreshing actually. I used to be mormon and am now 95% agnostic (I
don't believe in deity being required for an afterlife, but I believe there's
a 5-10% chance of something else post-death).

I actually had given up on the idea of children as we had fertility issues,
and I figured I was okay enough without them, but my wife was adamant so we
spent everything we had to get our two little boys. Literally I'm 40 with no
retirement, but I have two boys 2 and 8 months old.

Before I was kind of iffy on children, but I would not trade being a dad for
anything... It's an amazing experience and has opened my heart, treated a lot
of depression issues, and helped me become a better person overall. There is
love and beauty and inspiration without deity and religion. I'm in awe of the
universe and science and all we know about it but all we still don't.

It just makes me appreciate the fact more that someday I'll die, makes me want
to appreciate every moment because as far as we know we're the only
intelligent species, and I'm lucky enough to be born here in this day with the
technology we have, have a family I adore.

As for patriotism, I used to be patriotic back around 2001 when everyone was
'coming together' because 9/11\. But I lost that after I got more and more in
politics and see only those with big business interests at heart every get
anywhere. Issues that affect the masses don't matter to anyone on top.
America's done some horrible things like nuking and poisoning their own
citizens and covering it all up.

My wife's lost two grandparents to downwinder's which is basically cancer
caused by being too close to nuclear fallout. Back in the 50's they just were
asked to come out and bring their families and have a picnic and watch the
bombs fall.

The idea of America a democratic nation with we the people for the people as
it's motto would be amazing, but that hasn't happened yet, and I don't see it
happening for a very long time.

------
spamizbad
A person interviewed in the article touches on it, but it's not surprising
that the sort of patriotism espoused by older generations, much of which is
performative, superficial, and one might even say "virtue signaling", has
fallen out of favor with those under-40.

------
monkeyodeath
Religion, at least the dominant Evangelical Christian kind, has gotten
increasingly politicized, to the point where religious == conservative (note
I'm using JS-style "truthy" here, I know that this isn't a blanket case).

So it's not surprising that young Americans, who are generally liberal, don't
consider themselves religious.

And as for having kids? Not only is it more expensive and stressful than ever
before, but we're slowly moving away from the mindset that a woman's primary
purpose is to raise children.

That, and I think a lot of folks have started to reflect on how having kids
didn't seem to make their unhappy parents any more fulfilled.

~~~
devoply
Religion was always political it's just a modern slight of hand to label the
prevailing ideology secular and dis-empower the clergy. Does not seem to have
worked very long though. I think we'll see more political moves by religion
and those who choose to embrace it moving forward.

------
sysbin
I can only write from my own anecdotal personal experiences.

The USA is still more so religious than Canada from my interactions with young
people in both countries. Although, the perception that religion is comparable
to a cult is rising among the shared expressed views of religion compared to
ten years ago. I don't necessarily think religion is bad for society if we
educate people to be closer to understanding reality by conclusive science
than the whims of faith-based thoughts.

In any case I definitely witness patriotism decreasing because the young
generation has been having a difficult time in society financially speaking
and compared to their parents. I would think most young people feel betrayed
that quality of life is somewhat being stolen from them. This brings me to
another assumption that desires to have kids is being grossly influenced by
lack of finances and subconsciously. Everyone I know is opting in for a dog or
a cat and so they can try to afford a mortgage for a home. Build more homes to
offset the cost!

------
rubicon33
I can tell you why "patriotism, religion and having children" have never been
values for me (32 yr old)... Specifically, two are very closely related:

Religion - I don't buy it. I never have, even from a young age. The idea of a
mystical all powerful being floating in the sky watching us has always seemed
absurd. And frankly, science has really done a number on my ability to believe
in traditional religions. Do I believe some higher-being may exist? Sure. Do I
believe in an afterlife? No, I don't think anything points to that existing.
Maybe it does, but likely it doesn't. But trust me I understand how this lack
of a philosophy for life has sucked a lot of community, and to some extent,
love for life itself, right out of it.

Children - If there is no afterlife, then what IS the point of this life?
Seriously? Why form bonds, and relationships, and become close with people...
if only to die and for it all to vanish? Of course since I'm alive, I take
every chance to form relationships and bonds. But I don't believe in
continuing this depressing cycle. I don't believe in this "system" of pulling
someone into the world, only for them to have to say goodbye to everything
they've built and everyone they love. I disagree with it at the core of my
being, and I've never had a "religion" to help me think otherwise.

So yea... having kids, settling down, religion... that's all gone for me.

~~~
gremlinsinc
Maybe learn about stoicism. I have two children, and watching them experience
life for the first time is the most fulfilling thing I've ever seen. I was 38
when my youngest was born, I'll be 40 in November.

Stoicism teaches that we all will die, and true death is when we're forgotten,
but more than that we need to only worry about the things we can change, or
the things we have 'some' control over, but stop worrying about stuff we have
zero control over. Another teaching is that if you focus on the fact that
you're just worm food, for a few minutes every day you can learn to appreciate
the small time you have hear.

Given, when I was in the grips of depression I shared your nihilism about
forming bonds, and I'm still an introvert, and I used to be religious
(Mormon), now I'm agnostic, though I think there's a 5-10% chance of an
afterlife (our mind is just energy right?), I do not think a supreme being
exists --especially a narcissist who demands fealty and worship.

Trust me if you ever do settle down and have children, it'll change you. Also
-- you learn that even without an afterlife there is still so much beauty and
inspiration in this world to appreciate. Think about it, you've been given a
gift. As far as we know we're the only intelligence in the entire universe. If
that is true then only you and those of us born human on this rock will ever
know what intelligence is like. We're the only ones ever to understand
science, and build technological achievements. Only we can appreciate the
beauty of a space, or a sunset, or the love of family.

Without those experiences then yeah there's nothing holding us here, and why
wait till you die of natural causes? I thought about that a lot when I was
depressed, and losing my religion, then I had my children and wanted to get
better for them so I got help and learned to enjoy the beauty of life
regardless of what happens after.

~~~
rubicon33
I appreciate your response and I can certainly understand and respect the
gravity and life changing nature of having children.

That said, despite many a biological (and even cognitive) drives toward
procreating, I continue to refuse to do it. Until I can look around and see a
world that I agree with, one where bad things don't happen to good people,
where children don't get leukemia, where random car accidents don't leave you
crippled for life, then and maybe only then would I even consider it.

Take my unwillingness to procreate as a big middle finger to life itself; As
big of a fuck you (short of killing myself - which i have no interest in) as I
can possibly give. Feedback to the creator if you will... that I just don't
like what they've done. Yea life is beautiful in many way, but on a whole it
desperately needs a revision.

I may adopt one day. It's the least I could do with this mindset. Help an
innocent child that neither asked, nor possibly even wants, to be alive. If I
could improve their life then that's worth something. That'd be a hell of a
lot more "life changing" than pumping out a mini me.

------
cwperkins
Interesting to see how they mention Old Democrats are closer in value to Young
Republicans. I highly suspected this, but its nice to have data.

~~~
save_ferris
It’s largely why candidates like Biden are so popular; he’s pulling a large
number of votes from republican defectors that weren’t on the evangelical
train. The centrist wing of the Democratic Party has become much, much more
conservative since W. took office.

------
sys_64738
America is becoming more socialist.

------
julienreszka
"WSJ/NBC News telephone poll conducted of 1,000 adults from Aug. 10–14; margin
of error +/\- 3.1 percentage points"

This is all I need to know that this study doesn't have any worth.

The required sample size for statistical significance is at least 8 times
larger than this.

~~~
inimino
> This is all I need to know

Perhaps you should update your understanding of how polls work and are to be
interpreted... if you think you understand statistics better than the WSJ,
consider that you might be mistaken.

~~~
julienreszka
The WSJ is grossly incompetent when it comes to polling.

[https://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/OG-
AI628_100616_G...](https://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/OG-
AI628_100616_G_20161106085936.jpg)

[https://www.wsj.com/articles/hillary-clinton-leads-donald-
tr...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/hillary-clinton-leads-donald-trump-
by-4-points-in-latest-poll-1478440818)

Not only the sample size is wrong but also the method. Telephone polling is
totally inadequate today. Most people ignore phone calls.

~~~
inimino
Most people don't understand Bayesian reasoning either, but that doesn't mean
we shouldn't. If the polls have no value to you, then you lack the framework
to interpret them.

~~~
julienreszka
The polls are worthless because not representative why is it so hard to
understand?

