
A Las Vegas Resort Using Microwaves to Keep Guns Out - kyleblarson
https://www.wired.com/story/the-las-vegas-resort-using-microwaves-to-keep-guns-out-of-its-casino/
======
nickysielicki
FCC docs for this machine:
[https://fccid.io/2ALZTCMR](https://fccid.io/2ALZTCMR)

Photos:

* housing and antennas: [https://fccid.io/2ALZTCMR/External-Photos/External-Photos-35...](https://fccid.io/2ALZTCMR/External-Photos/External-Photos-3551583)

* internals: [https://fccid.io/2ALZTCMR/Internal-Photos/Internal-Photos-35...](https://fccid.io/2ALZTCMR/Internal-Photos/Internal-Photos-3551610)

edit: I only really know about part 15 as it relates to amateur radio, but I
am confused at how this device was certified. The device is noted as being
licensed under part 15F, and 15F, § 15.521(b) clearly notes that § 15.203
applies to these devices. Relevant part of 15.203 below:

> An intentional radiator shall be designed to ensure that no antenna other
> than that furnished by the responsible party shall be used with the device.
> The use of a permanently attached antenna or of an antenna that uses a
> unique coupling to the intentional radiator shall be considered sufficient
> to comply with the provisions of this section.

Clearly from the photos that isn't the case, those connectors are not special
in any way and those antennas aren't permanently affixed.

I think that is why this document exists, where they try to say that they're
an unintentional radiator: [https://fccid.io/2ALZTCMR/Attestation-
Statements/Part-15B-35...](https://fccid.io/2ALZTCMR/Attestation-
Statements/Part-15B-3551578)

Which is completely absurd at face value. They're obviously not
unintentionally radiating (like a plasma TV, for example) and they're
purposefully putting out the signals so that they can detect things, and the
fccid site clearly says that they're licensed as a 15F device, not a 15B
device.

Can someone explain?

~~~
leephillips
Interesting questions. Also interesting antenna design. Are the sawtooth-like
gaps some kind of filter?

------
hammock
This is terrifying to me, because the technology here is the same as the
millimeter wave "naked scanners" used at the airport. I'm not convinced of
their safety, they can easily be hidden behind a wall, and god knows who could
be viewing your naked body at any time.

~~~
reaperducer
> This is terrifying to me

So don't go. It's not public property. Nobody is forcing you to gamble.

~~~
lifeformed
How are you supposed to know if they have one?

~~~
qbrass
Presume they all do and plan your trip accordingly.

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michaelbuckbee
I think these things are clever, but wonder about adversarial images aka, the
turtle that registers as a gun

[https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/2/16597276/google-ai-
image-...](https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/2/16597276/google-ai-image-
attacks-adversarial-turtle-rifle-3d-printed)

~~~
tgb
Why is that a concern? Obviously you can fool the system into thinking you
have a gun, but I don't think casino's will have any qualms in banning fake-
guns.

~~~
mark-r
Based on their description of the tech, you can trigger the system with
something that doesn't look anything like a fake gun. It just has to have
similar resonances.

~~~
clort
The article mentions machine learning. So, it triggers, they search you, they
find a thing that is not a weapon, they update their database and comp you
something for disturbing you.

Of course, they could as tgb suggests just ban anything that triggers their
limited tests but that would impact income once word got around

~~~
pavel_lishin
But until that happens, a casino is consistently getting false negatives. What
happens when the trinket for sale as you're exiting Cirque du Soleil looks
like a machine gun to the system? Suddenly, you've got dozens of people held
up at the entrance. At best, that's a customer service annoyance; at worst, a
bad actor could use this to their advantage.

~~~
nl
Then they put a sign up saying "please remove trinket from pocket". This
really doesn't seem like a huge problem.

~~~
apple4ever
Sure it does. Who's going to go because they constantly get stopped?

------
Shivetya
Considering how difficult it is to keep guns, phones, and other contraband,
out of prisons, the biggest threat will become employees.

So I would probably task them to break it. Give them the full run through of
how it works, where it is deployed, then deploy real and fake setups randomly.
Encourage within limits employees to bring stuff into the facility given them
by those managing the setup.

The public is easy to put off by just implying it with a few out in the open
examples. However long term technology like this will be widespread and the
real concern is who has access to the data and how long is it retained. Within
the US the right to bear arms is sacred so tracking becomes a real concern.
This is wholly different than the idea of tracking cars by license plates.

I love unobtrusive security and cannot wait to see airports move that way. I
still imagine a Running Man security type wall where just walking past
highlights for security objects of concern

------
tlb
It'd be an entertaining piece of journalism to try a modern recreation of
Hunter S. Thompson's _Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas_. I can't imagine how you
could get away with any of it today. And yet, I'm often amazed at what some
people can get away with.

~~~
malnourish
I doubt the casinos are going to care too much if you're bringing in
recreational drugs.

~~~
merlincorey
They also had a handgun, a revolver, I believe.

------
jtbayly
It seems like this sort of system would be particularly susceptible to the
type of spoofing that they've been able to do with image recognition. Images
need to at least look unrecognizable to the human eye, which makes it a
challenge to mask them for computer recognition. But with hidden physical
objects, it seems that simple physical modifications would lead to
unrecognized objects.

~~~
lb1lf
I agree it seems like they would be vulnerable to the same kind of obfuscation
attacks as image recognition algorithms - however, I guess in this case they
have the added benefit of determining that the object is a lump of metal
(ceramics or 3d-printed exotics aside) - after all, very few objects with a
comparable quantity of metal in them as a gun would routinely be carried into
a casino.

~~~
LyndsySimon
> very few objects with a comparable quantity of metal in them as a gun would
> routinely be carried into a casino.

I'm not sure this is true at all. A backpack with a frame has more metal than
my pocket pistol, as does my MacBook Pro.

Is this system capable of discriminating between various _types_ of metal? I
know many hobby metal detectors these days can give you an idea of the
conductivity of a buried target, although that can vary wildly based on depth
and orientation, and is limited to about a foot or so in soil.

------
bob_theslob646
>Marketed by Canadian security outfit PatriotOne, the Patscan CMR combines
short-range radar with machine learning algorithms to scan individual guests
for guns, knives, and bombs in real time—without forcing them to line up and
walk through metal detectors.

The ALCU is going to love this . Is this considered an invasion of privacy? I
wonder if they can track you with this tech.

~~~
iaw
> Is this considered an invasion of privacy?

No.

> I wonder if they can track you with this tech.

About as well as anti-theft gates at Macy's track you.

~~~
gruez
>About as well as anti-theft gates at Macy's track you.

anti-theft gates don't have imaging capabilities.

~~~
iaw
Neither does the technology in the referenced article...

------
madengr
More then likely, that detector would be simple to defeat by wrapping a sheet
of Eccosorb over you gun to de-Q it.

[http://www.eccosorb.com/products-eccosorb-high-loss-
absorber...](http://www.eccosorb.com/products-eccosorb-high-loss-
absorbers.htm)

------
daxorid
Are firearms now not permitted inside Vegas hotels? I _always_ bring, at the
very least, a 9mm pistol with me every time I travel.

The buried lede, and unanswered question, is whether the legal status of
firearms in hotels has suddenly changed.

~~~
calvano915
The status here (in Las Vegas) has always been up to what policy each company
wishes to have. The casino/resort policies have always been pretty much
universal that no unauthorized weapons are allowed anywhere on their private
property. If they become aware of a weapon, they will ask you to take it to a
vehicle outside, perhaps your room safe if you're a guest of that property, or
for certain individuals will store it in the security office during the event
that the person is attending (this probably will no longer happen with
everyone more on edge now).

So if you don't tell anyone and nobody notices, you'll get away with having it
on you or in your room. If they find out, you'll be asked to leave if you
can't/don't wish to store it somewhere while on the property. Legally, I don't
think there's any issue except that they would trespass you if necessary. I
don't think there's any law that protects a right to carry on private property
(but in public yes, with appropriate licensing for concealed).

------
LinuxBender
Vegas has become family friendly, so to speak. Who assumes liability for the
images of children? What are the legal protections around the storage,
retention, secure deletion, handling and viewing of the images?

~~~
reaperducer
Vegas (and all Nevada) casinos are like another planet from a legal sense.
Once you're on their property, they can do pretty much anything they want to
you. You consented to all of it by going there. Kids? Their parents consented
to it by bringing them there in the first place.

It's not like being scanned at an airport, which is a quasi-public place.
You're on private, highly regulated, surveilled, scanned, documented,
recorded, profiled, archived property.

Where things get fuzzy is if you're in a Vegas hotel without a casino.

~~~
LinuxBender
Are there no state or federal laws that regulate the storage and dissemination
of nude children? I did not realize casinos were that powerful.

~~~
reaperducer
If there were pictures of nude children involved. But that's not what's
happening here. Your hysteria borders on strawman.

~~~
LinuxBender
I didn't realize I was hysterical? Just asking a question based on the article
and discussion in this thread. Do you have links to images from the scanner?

~~~
jakobegger
This scanner does not make images. It‘s a fancy metal detector with a 2m
range.

------
dsfyu404ed
I hope they've done their testing well. Casinos don't get a lot of slack from
the public. One single mom with a pacemaker and this could end badly.

If someone really wants to shoot someone else in said casino it's probably
because they want to shoot their former boss or whoever got them fired. Being
a former employee puts them in a great position to know via the grapevine what
the edge cases for the system are. This system is mostly to reassure the
overly-worried.

~~~
criddell
> This system is mostly to reassure the overly-worried.

I was thinking it might be to lower the cost of their insurance.

------
Animats
It's not really that impressive. It can't image anything. Here are the demo
videos.[1] This is a much simpler technology than millimeter wave imaging.
It's one step up from metal detectors, but way down from Z-backscatter. Think
of it as a metal detector with enough smarts to ignore coins, keys, and cell
phones. It's probably going to detect a pair of pliers, but if you're bringing
tools into a casino, the management is very interested.

[1]
[https://patriot1tech.com/news/videos/](https://patriot1tech.com/news/videos/)

------
1_2__4
This honestly sounds like snake oil. It’s even got all the requisite
buzzwords.

------
Justin_K
So anybody who wants to shoot up the place can be sure to avoid checking in
with all their guns in their briefcase.

Can these detect disassembled guns? I doubt they can understand the signature
of the sum of parts.

~~~
LyndsySimon
> Can these detect disassembled guns?

I was thinking about this - the only part of a gun that must be metal is the
barrel and the brass cartridge casing. Those are the first things I'd look
for, assuming the system is capable of resolving objects that small.

... and before someone asserts it, yes, there are guns in existence with
ceramic barrels, and there are guns in existence that shoot caseless
ammunition. Neither are obtainable, and they wouldn't work in combination as
one of the primary benefits to using metallic cartridges is that they carry a
large amount of the heat away from the barrel when ejected.

~~~
cc439
There are a few more parts that have to be made of metal depending on the type
of action used by the firearm. At a minimum, you'd also need a metal
bolt/breach face (the part that supports the rear of the cartridge) for any
type of action. I'm also fairly confident that any springs used (the firing
pin/striker/hammer needs one unless you want to fire it with a handheld
mallet) in the design would have to be made of metal as well unless there are
some composites I'm not aware of that match the properties of spring steel.

Adding that metal to a firearm doesn't add that much mass but those parts
would increase the profile of the gun due to their size/shape/area covered in
the eyes of a image sorting algorithm.

------
netcraft
It will be interesting to see how this works over the long run. Without doing
anything else to detect guns, how are they training the learning? I assume
they are doing that somewhere else and updating (like the antivirus analogy
they mention) but still seems like it would be fraught with false positives
and negatives for a while.

~~~
nathankunicki
I suppose that's when you get quietly asked to participate in pat down or
search. Traditional security scanners (and even "modern" airport fully body
scanners) suffer the same flaw, requiring the person to be pulled aside and
double checked.

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phyzome
What happens when it raises a flag? Will the person get a pat-down? This will
disproportionately have negative impact on people with medical implants and
whatnot.

« "The best analogy is antivirus software," says PatriotOne CEO Martin Cronin.
» Given how bad AV software is, this is not a promising analogy.

~~~
reaperducer
The subject person will likely be discretely escorted to a quiet corner and be
asked a few questions. Vegas security people have tons of experience in
managing threats. Heck, the Bellagio's poker cage got robbed a couple of weeks
ago and people gambling just feet away had no idea it was happening. The
employees are highly trained in keeping things under control. It's not like
the movies.

------
UncleEntity
So, like the TSA, all they're going to catch is people that forget they have
firearm on their person.

~~~
aYsY4dDQ2NrcNzA
Why would that be a bad thing?

~~~
madengr
Because those probably are not the ones who would shoot up the place.

~~~
mikestew
Not until they’re on their sixth complimentary whiskey sour and someone bumps
into them.

~~~
monksy
We're talking about Las Vegas, not Texas.

~~~
pwinnski
I'd like to know where to get those complimentary whiskey sours in Texas.

Or you could avoid punchlines based on stereotype that don't actually fit the
context.

------
evan_
Reminds me of the x-ray machine chair in You Only Live Twice.

------
creep
I will comment on the topic of the article, but first a point that will be
relevant later:

"People come to Vegas because it's the fun capital of the world. They're there
to let loose, rock and roll, and do things they'd never do..."

I have never been a fan of the idea of Vegas. I say the "idea" because I've
never been. This quote above exactly describes my displeasure-- it is a hub
for moral ambiguity. Letting "loose" is about letting go, for sure. Having a
bit of fun is never a bad thing. But why does the common definition of fun as
an adult most often include drinking in excess, sleeping with people one is
barely acquainted with, and gambling? Why is fun equated with spending copious
amounts of money on toxins and morally ambiguous pleasures? It's okay to drink
and play games and sleep with people, but when a place like Vegas exists, and
is so wealthy, I wonder. It's like a migratory ground, full of flashing
lights, enticing pleasures, impulsive decisions and often regret. That, to me,
is not "fun".

It is a fantasy world. Children have fun through fantasy, but their
explorations often lead them to personal and insightful discoveries about
themselves and the world. I feel as though many have lost this definition of
fun. What to do with the imagination when castles and pirates no longer bring
awe? Oh, binge drink and do stupid, possibly dangerous and financially
damaging bullshit, of course!

We live in a culture where fantasy is the expected coping mechanism, except
the fantasies we indulge in bring us false escape, rather than workable
material for self-improvement. In this definition of fantasy we often come out
guilty-- regretting the money we forked out, the people we spent time with,
and the decisions we've made. It is not healthy. The following quote
illustrates this in a way, and I will extrapolate that to the topic of the
article, and make a point

"If they show up at their resort and they have to line up for metal detectors,
or get wanded down, or walk through a gauntlet of security guards carrying
rifles and pistols—that's not going make them feel comfortable. It's going to
ruin their experience."

This is terrifying. The Vegas fantasy is about feeling okay with making
choices one may never make in their day-to-life. There's a designated place
for it in society, and one can designate a place for those decisions in their
mind as well. "Haha, you know what they say, What Happens in Vegas Stays in
Vegas!!". But we know it's dangerous, and the danger must be hidden to keep
the fantasy alive. What else can we do in society that hides the danger from
us? Well, it's sort of everywhere isn't it. Turning a blind eye when what you
enjoy turns out to be made from the sweat of children (almost literally
everything you and I are probably wearing now). Supporting shady companies by
buying their products because we get something from it. It's a toxic sort of
mindset that puts everything into the morally questionable category, or has
the possibility to do so. It's escalating. Are we okay to let casinos scan us
out-of-view, if that means we can successfully immerse ourselves into the
comfort illusion? Are we okay with mass surveillance as long as it's out of
sight? Are we okay to store questionable and uncomfortable things in the
architecture of society to give an illusion of safety and freedom? That's all
I see, it's everywhere. And I'm not okay with it.

