

The Android Developers Union - Mizza
http://www.andevuni.org/

======
endlessvoid94
I generally don't have a problem with developers having conversations with
companies running platforms they're building on, but come on. The sense of
entitlement is sickening.

Could android do things better? Sure. But to act as if Google has a
responsibility to the developers is a little bit far fetched, IMHO.

~~~
lwhi
I think all of these corporations do have a responsibility to create
reasonable conditions for developers - but I agree, these demands are quite
unrealistic.

Are there any other marketplaces which already grant what's being asked for?

~~~
Mizza
Could you elaborate upon which demands are unrealistic?

There are other marketplaces with better conditions - however, these do not
come installed with any devices, rendering them fairly useless in terms of
profitability.

~~~
lwhi
I think some of these demands might make operating a competitive market
difficult for Google - particularly open-sourcing their market's code and
implementation (Algorithmic Transparency).

Perhaps Google should be encouraged to create a marketplace which provides a
better user experience for customers?

In terms of other marketplaces - I strongly believe that the creation of
alternatives will lead to major gains for Android as a platform.

If conditions are made more favourable for developers (e.g. lower commission)
due to competition, and a choice of marketplaces are provided to customers
(with better UX) .. _all_ markets (including Apple's) will eventually need to
come into line.

I think it's good you're making your voice heard though.

~~~
Mizza
To clarify - the demand is not the market be open sourced (I too think that is
unreasonable at this point) - simply that the bug tracking be done in public.

I don't know if you're an Android user/dev, but the market is AWFUL, and I
receive numerous emails PER DAY from customers who have been unable to
download because of technical fault in the client or server.

I agree with all of your other comments! A better UX for the customers is a
better experience for us developers!

------
dantheman
This is just a waste of time, ughh. If you don't like the market - don't use
it. There are other markets, or you could create your own.

The sense of entitlement is astounding. They don't force you to use the
market, give you tools and everything for free. It's unbelievable. Yes, the
markets not perfect, but imho stuff like this is worse and just creates
meaningless controversy and wastes everyones time.

~~~
lwhi
I don't think it does any harm - people need an opportunity to voice their
opinion and to be heard. But I think in this case, some of the demands are
pretty unrealistic.

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GeneralMaximus
What about letting people from more countries sell applications on the Market?

I know a couple of folks -- long time Mac users and developers who did not
want to develop for iOS on moral grounds -- who built some breathtakingly
beautiful apps for Android. Simple apps. Prototypes, meant to test the
Androidian waters. Beautiful nonetheless. They are currently thinking of
moving to iOS because Indian developers can't sell apps on the Market.

I also know people who make spacecargoloads of money selling iOS apps from
India. An organization I visited last week wants to build a few iOS
applications. They already have a developer license. They considered Android
... for about 30 seconds. They quickly scraped all their Android plans the
moment I told them they couldn't sell applications from India.

I see that as a loss for Google.

------
arnorhs
I can't believe I still can't purchase apps in the Android app store.. I only
use ad-supported apps or free ones.

I would _love_ to spend money on android apps.

But, I live in Iceland. Welcome to 2011.

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ryanisinallofus
Never let another company step in between you and your customers. American
manufacturers learned this and now software development has moved in the same
direction. Oh well. There are still plenty of opportunities. We laugh at the
demanding tone of this "union," now but I suspect there will be a time when we
wish something like this took off.

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oemera
Oh come on guys! I thought HN is better then saying 'If you don't like it then
don't use it'. Do you really think that this has any value? I don't want to be
harsh but since when is this constructive criticism?

If you don't like this post please say WHY you don't like it and give some
feedback HOW it would be better.

And now some Feedback to this website. I think it's fair to mention that
Developers have to pay 30% of their earnings and getting nearly nothing for
it. I mean I'm thanking Google that they are hosting the Android Market but
taking 30% for just hosting something isn't fair anyway. They should lower the
rate or give some more support to developers.

I really welcome criticism to any platform cause you can grow with it BUT
without it you don't know what you are doing wrong, right?

To be honest I'm mostly an iOS developer but I developed already a Android App
and successfully put into the Android Market for free.

~~~
jsnell
> And now some Feedback to this website. I think it's fair to mention that
> Developers have to pay 30% of their earnings and getting nearly nothing for
> it.

They avoid having to pay credit card processing fees, which on a cheap app
probably eat most of the 30%. They don't have to write their own payment
handling code. They don't have to write and host their own download servers.
They don't need to worry about things like re-authenticating downloads for
users upgrading to a new device. They get their apps listed on the Market and
thus have their app be discoverable in the place where most Android users will
look for apps. They get access to the other Market infrastructure like in-app
purchases and the licensing server.

You think that's not providing any value? Then it seems pretty reasonable to
suggest that you switch to the alternative that you think provides better
value. After all, Android does allow for alternative app stores and for side
loading of apps.

> I mean I'm thanking Google that they are hosting the Android Market but
> taking 30% for just hosting something isn't fair anyway.

That's a strange definition of "fair" you have there.

------
colinplamondon
This guy should be banned from the Market simply so Google doesn't have to
waste oxygen looking at his support requests.

Anyone who takes the time to put together a list of hard-hitting business
requests like 'algorithmic transparency' is going to ever, ever, _ever_ have a
hit consumer application. The linked list isn't about making more money, it's
about ideological purity.

~~~
chrisrhoden
OP is responsible for top 5 level apps in several paid categories.

More importantly, one of the grievances is that Google doesn't look at support
requests. Like, at all.

~~~
logic
This is not exactly new behavior for them; it's just a new platform. Gmail and
Apps users have dealt with this for years.

Customer service and support continues to be the single biggest thing that
Google gets wrong. And I say this as an unabashed Google fanboy in most other
respects, at least compared to my immediate colleagues.

------
comex
> The current Market provides only very vague guidelines about what is and
> isn't acceptable content on the market. Many developers have had their
> applications removed without warning, without notice and without
> explanation. These rejections have come with no method of appeal.

> We demand that Google strictly codify the rules of the Market, and that any
> removals must be accompanied with a complete explanation and reference to
> the specific rules violated, and with a formal method for appeal.

Hmm, where have I heard this before?

------
makeramen
I don't see much of a problem with the Market. Sure it could be better, but it
could be a lot worse. I'd rather have them continue to spend developers' time
and energy making Android competitive so we have a market to sell our apps,
instead of catering to our every need.

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db42
"our demands are not met, cease Android development in favor of other more
open platforms,"

To other more open, like .... iOS, Windows mobile?? And, please don't say
Symbian and Maemo..

~~~
GeneralMaximus
iOS is more open than Android from where I stand. I live in India. A few
months ago, I couldn't purchase Android applications. As of now, I can
purchase applications but not sell them.

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jdp23
It's interesting to me how many of the folks here on Hacker News disparage the
developer and back the big corporation. Yay, solidarity!

~~~
ryanisinallofus
I was thinking the same thing but knew how bad the karma police would punish
me for saying it.

~~~
jdp23
Yeah, I guess it's not perceived as adding anything to the conversation by
pointing out that people are acting against their own self interest.

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uptown
I'd just be happy if the market numbers updated more frequently than every
couple days. My ad impression stats update in realtime. Why can't my downloads
and error stats do the same?

~~~
metageek
Even updating at the same time every day would be nice; then I could add the
developer's console to the list of links I read every morning.

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forgottenpaswrd
It seems like a bad idea:

The site frames the google-developers as a conflict between enemies, like
unions usually do. Neither Apple or Google are getting unreasonable profits
from their 30%share as they reinvest more than 90% of this money in
infrastructure, as Apple had clarified a lot of times.

If you make a great app, your users win,you win, and Google wins too. I bet
they are too much wins for the site creator prejudices and believes. He has
the mentality that for someone to win someone has to lose, the "survival" or
"fight" mentality.

If you sell a software application over traditional channels like retail
expect getting less than 10%, as every intermediary layer doubles the price,
e.g that was what the game "Commandos behind the enemy lines" got when Pyro
studios gave us a talk. Steam, Amazon, Apple, O'Reilly or Google are very good
opportunities for direct sales today.

I'm not going to talk about the entitlement tone because other people had done
already, but the "demands" I see are not the main problems Android has today,
for example I don't see "Adding support for more countries in the world, like
Apple does". He is focused on getting more share of the cake instead of making
a bigger one, IMHO this is a bad strategy.

------
extension
A union has nothing to do with justice and everything to do with collective
bargaining. When parties negotiate as a group, they can get a better deal. The
drawback is that you must dilute your own interests with those of everyone
else. But when all members have roughly the same interests, it's worthwhile.

All this site has to say is that the new curated app platforms are creating a
huge power imbalance, and the way to even the field is to unionize. All the
ideology just muddies the water and leads to endless bickering.

------
kefs
What's missing from this post is the better Android Market app and ecosystem
he designed and developed.. The only limiting factor is his willingness to
educate himself.

------
irfn
Are there any online petitions that have actually worked?

~~~
lwhi
I think the biggest effect is often being able to start (or add weight to) a
conversation within a wider community (eg. specialist or mainstream media). In
that respect, I think petitions can be an effective part of a marketing
campaign.

------
abraham
> We demand that Google renegotiate this rate, either to a much lower
> percentage (preferably, no percentage) or give us some value for our money
> in terms of Market curation and support.

So either lower the price or add multi week review process followed by
arbitrary denials?

------
vacri
regarding the first point about 32% take, below is my cut'n'paste from the
same issue on the Apple platform. At least on Android you can sideload.
Summary: "If you want to do business, you have to pay for services. Deal with
it".

If you think otherwise, well, there's a market full of screaming developers
with little business experience, and this is the 'home of startups' - there's
a startup idea to capitalise on.

\---- I don't like Apple's business practises and never have, but this 70/30
split furore is hilarious to someone who has worked in retail and supply
before. It is entirely normal for a retailer (apple) to take this kind of
split in the retail price and the supplier/wholesaler to take 70%. In the
retail industry I worked in, the retailer took a 35-40% portion.

This split is yawningly normal in retail. What's not normal is the huge
numbers of "one-person" wholesalers... who have very little in the way of
business experience and see that split as a "tax" rather than payment for a
service.

~~~
lwhi
But to play devil's advocate; it's not the same as retail - Apple don't buy
stock and sell it on.

Apple (and Google) provide a space to sell Apps. They operate more like a
department store which rents space to individual concessions.

I don't think a department store would necessarily take 30% of all sales made
within it.

~~~
SeanLuke
The average markup for a department store is 50% to 80%. Meaning that they
take 33% to 44% of sales.

~~~
lwhi
Maybe when the store is owned by one company, but is this true for a
concession operating within a department store?

------
hunterp
Regarding item #4: Increased Payment Options

When the official Android market went live, you can now buy apps over the
browser, then even download to your phone...so this is a bit out of date.

~~~
dpcan
He may be referring to more payment options - like PayPal. I get emails all
the time from people asking if they can pay with PayPal.

EDIT: And until you've sold apps in the Android Market, you don't know the
pain that is the infamous RED "Payment Declined" message in Google Checkout.

~~~
hunterp
I probably know the pain. I've been putting food on my table since 2009 solely
from Android app development. And not for contracts either, just me vs. the
market.

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nuclear_eclipse
It's ironic that when I click to expand some of the demands, Chrome 11.x
consistently crashes and shows the "Aw Snap!" message. It's almost like they
intended to hide the truth from me.

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metageek
Why 32% and not 30%? Is there an extra fee I'm not seeing? I have one paid app
in the Market (9 sales so far!), and I'm pretty sure I got exactly 70% of the
sales.

------
patrickaljord
What is market curation exactly?

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lwhi
Is there a union for iPhone developers too?

~~~
shaggyfrog
Pretty much every one of those points are applicable to Apple. However, I
don't think it's a problem as long as most iOS developers are making a lot
more money on iOS than Android.

Not like anything's going to come of this lame petition anyway. If you're not
making money as an Android dev, stop developing on Android. Online petitions
are great for making people feel like they've actually done something, without
actually making them put in any more effort than a button click.

~~~
lwhi
" _Pretty much every one of those points are applicable to Apple. However, I
don't think it's a problem as long as most iOS developers are making a lot
more money on iOS than Android._ "

Even so, there's not a cat in hell's chance than Apple would ever submit to
'union' pressure. I don't think Google can realistically be expected behave
differently.

~~~
brisance
When the original iPhone came out, the only way to deliver apps was via the
web. Developers wanted an iPhone SDK, and that's exactly what they got in
subsequent versions, which led to the App Store's success.

When Apple came out with the "no non-Objective-C" clause aka section 3.3.1
lots of people demanded that it be changed. Apple eventually relented too.

So... Apple _does_ respond to feedback.

~~~
shaggyfrog
The clause was _not_ simply "no non-Objective-C". It allowed for C/C++/Obj-C
development as long as Xcode was the tool used to produce the binary.

If they had banned C and C++, a _lot_ of games would have had to disappear,
considering how many games use external libraries. Not to mention a lot of
non-game apps, like those that use the SQLite package (raw, not via Core
Data).

~~~
ZeroGravitas
A lot of games would have been banned either way e.g. use of Lua scripting or
any 3rd party framework for cross-platform dev.

~~~
shaggyfrog
Right, but that was because of a kind of prohibition on embedded scripting
runtimes in general, and has nothing to do with C or C++ specifically.

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drivebyacct2
So don't use the Market?

~~~
lwhi
Android developers actually have a choice (unlike iPhone developers) -
multiple markets exist. Competition between markets could plausibly create
better conditions for developers.

EDIT: eg. Verizon's Android Market (V CAST) and Amazon's upcoming marketplace.

~~~
danudey
I feel like this would be theoretically better for middleman publishers but
much worse for non-technical end users. I have to change a setting then
download an app and set up an Amazon account just so I can download another
app? Too confusing.

Also, the Amazon store has, as I recall, the interesting caveat of the prices
all being set by Amazon in the first place. You don't even get to decide what
your app is worth, which a lot of developers wouldn't care for I suspect.

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zrgiu
Where is the request for allowing worldwide developers to sell apps ?

