
A 125-year-old delivery network that feeds Mumbai - throw0101a
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20170114-the-125-year-old-network-that-keeps-mumbai-going
======
Nextgrid
> “We've known this person so long we know he'll do a proper job."

> The delivery schedule also has built-in buffers. If a delivery is due at
> 13:00, the dabbawala will aim for around 12:00 [...] For every 15 to 20
> dabbawalas there is also always someone on stand-by in case one of them gets
> delayed.

> At 12:45 a dabbawala races around the corner on a bike and rushes shouting
> into an office building. [...] The dabbawala was late by his own standards
> but the customer was probably never aware of the hiccup, he says.

> A dabbawalas’ commitment to the job is partly because it pays well – roughly
> 12,000 rupees (£140) a month, a good salary in India for what is essentially
> unskilled labour. The fame of the dabbawalas also gives the job a certain
> prestige.

> And as a cooperative all dabbawalas are equal partners with supervisors
> called mukadams who are elected.

It seems like there's no major secret here. The key to achieving such things
is... surprise surprise... treating your workers fairly and paying them well
so they actually give a shit about their job, and feel appreciated and proud
of what they do. The same would actually translate to many other industries.

The food delivery startups could achieve the same if they paid their delivery
drivers fairly (at the moment most don't even make _minimum wage_ \- compared
to the dabbawalas’ "good salary") instead of pissing away their money into
marketing/advertising or into someone's pocket, whether greedy investors or
"engineers" to build a blockchain-based, Kubernetes-powered microservices
playground.

~~~
searchableguy
> 12k rupees/month

> good wage

That's unlivable wage.

Also, those companies you have listed pay more.

~~~
namdnay
For unskilled labour in India, that’s _very_ good money. The average wage in
India is around 350-400 INR per day worked

~~~
legolas2412
But Swiggy etc pay 25-50k

[https://www.livemint.com/Companies/cYbdfsYk93HFhMuC0XgaNN/Sw...](https://www.livemint.com/Companies/cYbdfsYk93HFhMuC0XgaNN/Swiggy-
Zomato-hike-delivery-boy-salaries-as-competition-gro.html)

~~~
econcon
I am curious, is there any reason why dabba people don't switch to Swiggy for
job? If they'll make more there.

~~~
pkaye
Dabbawalas are more involved with transporting home cooked food to the worker.
The worker leaves early in the morning and some time later the spouse will
have a hot meal packed up. The dabbawala will come pick it up and aggregate
orders going to common destinations, move it by train, etc. I presume Swiggy
is only for restaurant cooked food.

Secondly the dabbawala jobs are more like a stable union job. You don't get
the top money but everyone looks after each other. Of course with time
customer preferences may change towards restaurant food. Or maybe workers
start using plastic containers and microwaves.

------
aphextron
>"The new wave of food-delivery start-ups wants to know how they do it."

Miniscule labor costs and scant workers rights.

The "gig" economy is simply replicating in the west what has already existed
in highly stratified societies for generations now that wealth inequality has
finally reached a point where it can be profitable.

~~~
pen2l
I visited Pakistan a few years ago, my homeland, after some 20 years of being
in the states.

I was being driven around by my 18 year old cousin. At some point, just
completely randomly, some youngin' \- I would estimate about 15 years of age,
entered the car, in the backseat. My Urdu was a little off, I couldn't make
out exactly what had happened, I assumed the guy was my cousin's friend.

No, it turns out he was just doing a chore for a few pennies.

It's the strangest fucking thing, dealing with these people. They're always
there, just one command away. Being in America, I say my thank yous to
cashiers or anyone of lesser means, exchange pleasantries, I never see them as
lesser humans than me. But in that part of the world, if you look a certain
way and dress a certain way, these folks will come to you for chores for a few
pennies -- and they will almost present themselves as if they are lesser
persons than you. And I would be speechless in those situations, I wouldn't
know what to do or say. That properly fucked me in the head for a good while.

~~~
gambiting
>>Being in America, I say my thank yous to cashiers or anyone of lesser means,
exchange pleasantries, I never see them as lesser humans than me.

So I'm not saying that you do obviously, but when I visited America I found it
really jarring how all hospitality people were behaving almost
like....servants. I saw what felt like a huge amount of fake smiles and
pleasantries , just to make sure I feel happy as a customer, and presumably an
attempt to get a larger tip. It felt like people were avoiding direct eye
contact and their body language seemed as if they were naturally assuming a
position of a "lesser" status just to keep you happy.

Again, that's just from a few visits over to America - maybe I was just very
unlucky. But I had it every time in different cities.

~~~
fermienrico
There are a lot of things in US that feel like pleasantries - the tipping
culture promotes this sort of thing.

As an American, I disagree with the "servant" class attitude that you found in
America. It is completely opposite, in fact, in a bad way sometimes.
Middleclass Americans feel entitled about being able to do certain things and
if that privilege is taken away, they will create chaos. In general, Americans
have enterprising values - work hard, be pragmatic, meritocracy, avoid
formalities and generally have intense sense of optimism. Americans engage in
risk taking, especially in the upper middle class.

10 core American values:
[https://www.andrews.edu/~tidwell/bsad560/USValues.html](https://www.andrews.edu/~tidwell/bsad560/USValues.html)

It is not a perfect place, rather a mosiac of various cultures. I've visited
India (spent 9 months) and the diversity in India is quite staggering -
literally every state is like its own country. However, there is little race
diversity and internationalisation. America is a land of immigrants, good
tolerance to other cultures and the idea of individualism is deeply rooted in
the soul of this nation. Korean person could be found eating at an Egyptian
restaurant, both the person and the restaurant owners are Americans. In India,
I found almost casual racism - literally everywhere from advertisements to how
the North (light skinned) treats the South (dark skinned) Indians.

Of all nations I've had the chance to explore and understand - Japanese
culture has the most "hierarchical" notion of society. I've worked with
Japanese engineers who are afraid to speak up or mess up in order to avoid
pissing off their superiors. The "servant" attitude you speak of - that is
fully manifested in Japan - as a lifelong duty to serve others, excel in what
you do and expect nothing in return (no tips in Japan). I admire certain
aspects of it and it creates a peaceful harmony in the society. There are
Japanese terms to explain it more clearly, I can't recall them.

~~~
fomine3
looks like "Omotenashi" in Japan.

------
gjkood
For a nice introduction to the subject of Mumbai Dabawallahs I would strongly
recommend watching "The Lunchbox" [1] starring the late Irfan Khan. A great
actor tragically taken from us at a relatively young age.

Beautiful movie. Enjoy.

[1]
[https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2350496/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2350496/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0)

~~~
papeda
+1. A slow, naturalistic movie that's also conventionally entertaining. Plus,
as a timely feature, one of the protagonists spends a bunch of time standing
on crowded trains, sitting in a crowded office, and eating lunch in a crowded
canteen.

------
mynegation
While it is always good for executives to learn how long-established and well-
run things work, it looks to me a lot in this system depends on the social
context of Mumbai (or other big cities in India): big income disparity and the
prevalence of stay at home domestic partners. I mean the first example in the
article is a stock broker who has food delivered from home, cooked by their
spouse.

Why would this work in countries with a set minimum wage, double income
households, and restaurants that have to be able to maintain their margins
after delivery fees (something that domestic partners do not have to do)?

~~~
that_girl
+1 The social context is what's missed in interpretation by outsiders.

------
balladeer
There's an awesome film that interestingly uses this food delivery network -
The Lunchbox
([https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2350496/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2350496/)).

It stars recently passed away actor Irrfan Khan, Nimrat Kaur (she's in
Homeland), and Nawazuddin Siddiqui. They are among the finest from here. It
has Max Richter's music and is on Indian Netflix (not sure about rest of the
world).

------
youeseh
> A dabbawalas’ commitment to the job is partly because it pays well – roughly
> 12,000 rupees (£140) a month, a good salary in India for what is essentially
> unskilled labour. The fame of the dabbawalas also gives the job a certain
> prestige.

Similar to being a bicycle messenger. You could make $20 an hour if you're
efficient, which is more than working at a big box chain or delivering for a
ridesharing service, and it has prestige.

Source: [https://www.breakawaycourier.com/news-and-
blog/2011/8/3/how-...](https://www.breakawaycourier.com/news-and-
blog/2011/8/3/how-much-money-do-bike-messengers-really-make.html)

------
russfink
Dumb question here - why don't people take their own lunch to work? I know
there are valid reasons, can someone help me understand?

~~~
vaidhy
In Mumbai, the person working is likely to leave early (say before 7am). The
person cooking (typically mom or spouse) gets to lunch later, around 10:30 and
it gets delivered. Most Indian food is not great when eaten cold. This also
avoids needing to buy and store vegetables since you can get to the market in
the morning and buy what you need for the day.

It makes life easier for all concerned.

~~~
PeterisP
It does rely on having a "homemaker" who is not working and stays at home to
cook; in many other countries that's not really an option for the majority of
workers as both spouse and mom (if not very old) would be working.

------
paulkrush
"3.4 mistakes per million deliveries". There are lessons to be learned from
these guys, but I think definition of a mistake and this stat in general is,
well, flexible.

~~~
econcon
It would be interesting if someone makes a complaint portal for Dabba Walla
and post some statistics on how many real complaints do you actually receive.

~~~
essdas
It would certainly be interesting, however in the absence of hard data perhaps
some anecdotal evidence is better than no information:

Case 1 \------ 10 years x 280 deliveries per year x 2 deliveries per day (pick
up + drop) = 5600 deliveries.

Number of mistakes = 0

That puts the error rate at < 1/5600 (or approximately 0.0002).

Case 2 \------ 4 years x 280 deliveries per year x 2 deliveries per day (pick
up + drop) = 2240

Number of mistakes = 0

That puts the error rate at < 1/2240 (or approximately 0.0004).

Both cases together \-------------------

Error rate < 0.00012

------
Robinxd
Moved to Thane, which is right next to Mumbai around six months ago.

Although not really related, but I get a good meal of my choice at roughly INR
70($1)/meal , and I can order in between snacks for a smaller price if needed.
And I can stand their while it's cooked or not, all at the comfort of just
going to an apartment that is next to mine. It's cheap, healthy and
convenient. At my work place, I can't decide the food I want, and I pay 3
times more.

~~~
spiderjerusalem
Yes, a fair amount of middle/lower-middle class women in big cities in India
make some side cash with this system. Basically just cooking extra portions of
lunch and dinner of whatever they're making that day anyway and feeding the
busy single neighbours for a very reasonable amount.

~~~
S53Vflnr4n
H4 spouses in the US do the same.

------
that_girl
Another point I might add: Please factor in the rate of unemployment and the
limited choices for labor when measuring the happiness of these "unskilled"
workers.

I agree that we can learn a lesson of efficiency from these guys, but I don't
agree that we can learn a lesson of cooperative society and sharing of
dividends.

Lack of exposure means we rationalize the existing situation and convince
ourselves that this is good. I'm sure there are some dabbawalas thinking "It
is what it is. There are no other jobs available, so I might as well."

~~~
that_girl
In other words, they are making a system work, doesn't mean that the system is
right in the first place and is universally applicable.

------
formatjam
The Dabbawalas "secret" is: - built on top of public transit: dramatically
lower cost, no need to pay for gas - have a pre set schedule and demand / not
on-demand: enable huge supply chain optimization. These 2 are the key
differences between the dabbawalas and uber eats supply chains.

Uber can also does similar optimizations if they offer a lunch subscription
service that u pre-book ur lunches.

\- uses vanes to do batch pick up / drop off: restaurants (small van)-> local
hub (large van)-> destination local hub -> final mile delivery on bike / foot.

This will provide efficient supply chain to keep cost down and reliable if
theres enough demand.

However, demand might be low because US customers looking to save money are
used to pack their own lunch and microwave at work. This is not an option in
Mumbai because of crowed train in rush hour.

------
_curious_
Fascinating topic and read.

You can see it in their smile and hear it in their tone...these people take a
rare sense of pride in their work. Dabbawalas appear to be a happy, grateful,
and fulfilled workforce that do a sufficient job. Add in the cultural prestige
and this model strikes me as very tough to compete with. So why?

What aspect of this current approach is broken or inefficient like to the
point of justifying the time, money and effort to compete with as a startup?
(I didn't gather that part from the article). Is it marginal food cost?

Is it merely because it's a big market operating the old-school way and
therefore easy money is being thrown at trying to capture share or supplant
using apps? No wonder these ventures are having a tough go at things...seems
to me as a solution seeking a problem.

~~~
sk0g
Nothing has to be broken for a startup or a big corp to attempt to make money
themselves.

There's money to be made in offering choices - enough money to justify the
expenditure in getting something new up and running, seemingly.

Speaking of solutions seeking a problem, early on in my career I was at a
blockchain startup of sorts, though I have no idea what blockchain work they
actually did. I got a few offers from other blockchain companies too, and I
could never figure out what problem they were solving that a database wouldn't
solve even better.

~~~
sokoloff
Separating investors from their money is a problem more easily solved with
blockchain that a run of the mill database.

~~~
sk0g
You say that like they're mutually exclusive!

One project, a custom Ethereum based coin was running behind on time - like
way, way behind. A DB based system was delivered as a prototype (where I
noticed floats were used for transaction amounts!), and since the coin was
"cloud native", whatever that means, it stayed that way. Client did ask for
source code but the company wasn't able to serve that, for obvious reasons...

------
mytailorisrich
There is a Top Gear bit on Dabbawala, part of the India Special iirc, which is
quite informative in addition to the usual tone of the show.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNIDvr7NNwo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNIDvr7NNwo)

------
supernova87a
Of course, you know that this system is able to exist only because the office
workers have odd food preferences, and the delivery people get paid like shit,
and there's tons of people willing to do the job for such low wage?

If the alternative to having this service is me just carrying a small tin box
along with me to work, what are the odds I'm going to shell out $10 each time
if it were implemented in any country that has a Western minimum wage?

~~~
nyolfen
perhaps you should read the article

------
nine_zeros
Very interesting system. I wonder if this could work with regular gig economy
as it exists in the US.

Why aren't there more co-operative businesses here? What stops taxi drivers or
gig workers from forming a co-op with decent benefits?

------
fedede
I actually a Spanish startup that was partially inspired by this.

The difference is that one person delivers many dishes in a ride, so costs can
be cut and wages can be higher.

It’s actually doing pretty well and expanding on many cities in the country.

------
citizenpaul
" new wave of food-delivery start-ups wants to know how they do it."

Umm is this really a question? Near destitute poverty level wages and quality
of life.

------
senthil_rajasek
Everytime a story about India is posted the HN crowd picks apart the negatives
of Indian society like caste or poverty. That's the first comment I see when I
get here. Always.

STOP THIS!

If you want to focus on the negativity start a separate thread imagine every
story about the valley bringing up it's inherent white privilege or racism as
the first comment.

~~~
fermienrico
This is not how HN works.

Criticism and counter points are the reason why I come here. Taking offense to
criticism is how we regress as a society. It has nothing to do with racism
except that its a construct in one's mind based on prior experiences, biases
and taking excessive pride in one's identity/culture. One can still do that,
but that should not mean the public is barred from criticism.

~~~
senthil_rajasek
This is a false equivalence. I bet if HN audience were mostly minorities every
story would not be critical of non-western cultures.

~~~
fermienrico
What's wrong with criticism of minorities?

~~~
senthil_rajasek
Entitlement.

