
Ask HN: Does anyone know if Apple plans to address the MacBook keyboard issue? - plg
Does anyone have any idea if Apple is going to DO something about the MacBook keyboard issue? Or if this is simply the new normal for Apple laptop keyboards?<p>I know that the current butterfly mechanism is v2, it&#x27;s slightly improved over the very 1st iteration (which appeared on the original 12&quot; MacBook retina).<p>Will there be a v3?
======
millzlane
If anyone knows apple the way that I do. The answer is yes and no. Yes they
will address it when it affects their bottom line. No, because they don't
consider it an issue to begin with. I'm old enough to remember when they had
the logic board issue and specifically gave us (Apple care reps) instructions
to not mention it to the customer. So if you called with an unrelated issue, I
wasn't allowed to tell you about the recall to replace your logicboard that
had an 80% failure rate. Or that the reason the system wasn't booting up was
possible the logic board issue.

I don't think a company that knowingly ships a bad product, then, either
dodges responsibility. Or puts the onus on the consumer will actually do
anything right by the consumer with this keyboard issue. As if it's the
consumers fault for buying a shitty product.

~~~
ransom1538
This. My last trip with my macbook pro to the genius bar went this way. My
keyboard didn't work. He looked at my screen, then whispered: "your screen is
having a recall -- look at the glossy layer - it is coming off -- we replace
it for free".

I mean apple sure knows how to take my payment in 15 seconds at the store with
my information and email address. But somehow they can't inform me of a
recall.

~~~
spenvo
No joke, since reading this comment I have confirmed in person my MacBook pro
is covered and lined up a screen replacement with them. I really would have
kicked myself if I found out about this after the coverage period ended. I
guess it pays to read HN comments!

------
solomatov
Even if they have, they are known for super strict security rules, so it won't
be disclosed.

I saw a link to their patent application where they patented a way to protect
the current keyboard design from dust and crumbs.

Personally, I got tired of their disregard for software developers issues with
hardware, and now my working machine in the new XPS 13 from Dell. I am happy
with it.

~~~
madengr
As an EE, I despise using laptops, rather want real engineering workstations.

So what is it with software developers and laptops? The portability? Or rather
people just being used to a laptop since they are ubiquitous in college. Even
plugged into monitors, laptop keyboards just plain suck.

I have an XPS-13, and it's handy for field use with GNU Radio, but can't
fathom doing anything productive on it.

~~~
rootusrootus
At my company we have laptops because the company wants people to secure them
when they're not at their desk, by taking them with them. Home, meetings, you
name it.

Almost nobody uses their laptop keyboard, however, unless they're using the
laptop away from their desk. We all have 2-3 monitors and external keyboards &
mice.

~~~
madengr
Opposite here. My employers considers them liabilities, and it's pulling teeth
to get one.

------
rodwyer
I got sick of it myself and switched to a Lenovo X1 Carbon. Comparison here:
[http://blog.richard.do/index.php/2018/05/2018-macbook-pro-
vs...](http://blog.richard.do/index.php/2018/05/2018-macbook-pro-vs-
lenovo-x1-carbon/)

~~~
happimess
Thanks for the concise review. Off-topic question, though:

> but due to the ports issue (which Apple are taking the piss with)

What does "taking the piss with" mean in this context?

~~~
s_kilk
In British English this would mean "playing a joke", essentially.

If I tried to convince you that London is actually located on Mars, or that
Brexit is a good idea, I'd be taking the piss.

------
code4tee
Let’ss Hope soo becausse it’s gettiing to be quitee annnnoying.

~~~
peterhadlaw
I laughed and then I cried and then I laughed tears at this commment.

------
slouch
I bought a 2015 refurb instead of a new macbook because of the keyboard
issues. It'll get me over this issue and into 2020, I believe.

~~~
notadoc
That is what my entire office did too, holding out hope the next generation
has a reliable keyboard and no touch bar

~~~
jacquesc
Same at our office. mid 2015 model 15" is the standard issue for developers. A
few people go the latest model and all have regretted it.

Seems like Apple can't walk and chew bubble gum at the same time. iPhone and
Watches is all they care about and they don't put any thought into Macs
anymore.

~~~
benatkin
I didn't think it would drag out this long.

------
greglindahl
I have the 12" MacBook, so it's the v1 keyboard, and after I got used to it, I
was OK with it.

~~~
txcwpalpha
I'm not exactly sure which "issues" the OP is talking about, but one of the
biggest issues isn't just "getting used to" the new keyboard, but the fact
that the new keyboard breaks so easily and then costs so much to replace. At
that point it doesn't matter how much you like the new style of keyboard,
because if your S key is broken, the keyboard is practically unusable.

I have a v2 butterfly keyboard and I actually do prefer the tactile feel over
older MacBooks, but the fact that a single piece of hair/dust has broken my
keyboard is really unacceptable and something I definitely would like to see
addressed.

~~~
greglindahl
Breakage applies to a subset of users. Everyone has to get used to typing on
it. Typing on it was the issue I was referring to.

------
pentae
Do you remember when Apple laptops had the best keyboards in the business? I
miss those days.

------
ppetty
I wonder what it’s like on Apple’s campuses? I’d guess their employees all
have new laptops, or at least Touch Bar equipped models. How many have the
Bluetooth Magic Keyboard & Track Pad at their work station too? If they do use
external keyboards how do they charge them? From a monitor’s USB3 ports? wall
outlet with charger nub? USB C to USB 3 dongle? You have to have one of those
methods to charge by Thunderbolt on the Touch Bar laptops … Seriously, that
seems like a viable metric to understand satisfaction with the onboard
keyboard & trackpad. Or maybe Apple doesn’t think this is as big an issue as
it is because so many people are now relying on alternate input devices.

------
pier25
The keyboard is one problem, but there are others.

My secondary machine, a 2014 13'' retina MBP, started having battery problems.
Went to an official repair service (Apple does not fix stuff here in Mexico).
To replace the battery I would have to replace the whole top panel of the
machine (keyboard, trackpad, etc) which costs like $600 USD. Apple would in
turn buy the piece removed from my computer and lower what I had to pay to
$350 USD.

$350 to replace a battery is still ridiculous, specially considering that it's
the first piece to degrade on a laptop.

Since I don't depend much on that laptop I will live with a bad battery as
long as I can. In a year or two I will reconsider my options.

------
mrgordon
I have broken v1 and v2 MacBook Pro keyboards from normal use. Confirmed
defective / useless. Really disappointed.

------
samatman
I broke my own rule and bought a first iteration of new technology from Apple.

I'm conflicted. I actually enjoy the feel of the new keys, with the notable
exception of the stunningly user-hostile arrow keys.

But I'm a bit of a slob, and I've gotten key stick a couple times. I have to
baby this thing and I'm used to smashing the keys clean off and having it keep
working.

Literally, my 2010 era MBP was missing two keys when it retired.

Half-height left and right arrow keys, and a keyboard that can withstand the
crumbs of outrageous fortune. That'd do it for me.

~~~
DanHulton
I'm absolutely with you on this. (Well, I haven't gotten any keys stuck, but
I'm with you on the rest.)

It's a great keyboard, or it would be if it didn't have the crazy failure
rate, terrible repairability, and awful arrow keys.

So it's actually, just... kinda... fine.

------
chendragon
I'm not entirely sure if the problems with the keyboard are simply inherent.
The gap between the keys on the new one and the frame is simply tiny, and
since the key doesn't move, and because the key hits the bottom when pressed,
anything that gets in there isn't going to come out or let the key work
normally. With that said, I still do appreciate the thinness of the new
MacBooks.

Interestingly enough it also seems to vary between units. The 2017 TBMBP is
apparently V3 of Butterfly according to someone who worked at Apple on Reddit,
who claims they tried to fix the issue.

The 2016 Retina MacBook (12") that I had was able to handle some serious
crumbage and never had issues. I at some point had some real crumbly snacks
over it and nothing got inside the keyboard.

Then I got a 2016 MacBook Pro (13", touch bar). Even with lighter use, and
trying to keep anything getting into it, I had basically every problem with
that keyboard. The only thing that fixed it was a silicone keyboard cover from
Amazon, after taking all the keys off and cleaning under them. Then it never
broke again because it was effectively sealed.

I wonder if the thinner MacBook has a different keyboard than the Pro (It
does, I know that now). I think that might have made a big difference, since
the thinner one was definitely less susceptible to pulling stuff into it.
Might also have something to do with the airflow from the key going in and
out.

On the plus side though, the keyboard covers impact typing a LOT less than
they used to because of how thin the keyboard is.

------
gergi
Seems like the post should provide some context. What exactly is the issue?

~~~
JohnTHaller
The keys on the keyboard randomly stop working. This appears to be due to a
design flaw that allows even a small amount of dust to interfere with the key
action mechanism. Apple posted a 'fix' involving holding the laptop at odd
angles and blowing compressed air under the keys to attempt to get them
working again. Anecdotally, several HN users have reported having their
keyboard replaced multiple times under warranty due to this issue.

------
lkurusa
Actually, the current version is v3, found on 2017 MBPs. v2 appeared on 2016
MBPs, and v1 on the first 12" MacBook.

I have the v2 version, and this is my third top case, if it were not for
consumer laws here, I would have moved to another laptop.

As far as I'm aware there are no plans to address them, we have to wait until
the next Apple event to hear more, hopefully.

~~~
Clubber
I currently have a 2017 MacBook Pro and the keyboard isn't giving me much
trouble. Sometimes something will get in the key mechanism, but blowing into
the gap between the key and the case fixes it. After using it, my wife's 2013
MacBook Pro feels really spongy (a keyboard I loved).

~~~
lkurusa
I don't even want to count how many compressed air bottles I'm through.

Most of the time it fixes the problem, but (so far) three times I had to take
it to the Apple Store and claim Consumer Law because the key mechanism broke.

------
notadoc
Who knows? Nobody knows outside of Apple.

My best guess would be that maybe by sometime late next year at the earliest
they will have redesigned the keyboard, but it could easily be 2020 or later,
or maybe never. It's also possible the next version won't be an improvement,
as many learned when the 2012-2015 MacBook Pro was getting long in the tooth,
and the 2016-???? replacement arrived to replace it.

In the meantime, you can do what many of us did: upgrade to a three year old
2015 MacBook Pro, it has many useful ports, MagSafe, an escape key, function
keys, a working keyboard, etc, it's an improvement in every possible way
except that the enclosure is a little bit thicker.

Or you can do what many of my other colleagues are doing and get a Lenovo as
they migrate back to Linux/Windows.

~~~
wingerlang
I got a macbook 2016 model with touch bar as a work laptop. I was scared of
all things, the lack of esc, ports, magsafe. However after using it for X
months, I am never going back.

\- The touchbar is great with sliders for brightness and volume. That's ALL I
use it for though, so it is a bit under utilized.

\- The esc key might be the only minor issue, but it's mostly the lack of
feedback.

\- Ports - I love having to unplug only one dongle instead of the 4-5
USD/HDMI/ETC/ETC I always have plugged in every time I need to move away. And
plugging them all back in is also a single action. I'd be ok with less ports
even.

\- Magsafe, I still love it but I haven't even missed it.

\- No issues with the keyboard and I haven't used function keys in years
anyway.

I think it 'clicked' for me after a few weeks of usage, so I understand people
judging it or even returning it after a few days.

------
bitwize
I think they'll address it by eliminating the keyboard entirely à la the
MacBook Wheel[0], albeit perhaps with a touch screen. From an absolute,
ergonomic standpoint, it will suck. But soft keys won't fail or get crud in
them like hard keys do, and Gruber will soon be writing thinkpieces about how
the keyboard is the most failure-prone part of a computer, and the complaints
about recent MBP keyboards are inherent failings of hardware keyboards
themselves rather than Apple skimping on quality, and Apple is taking the lead
in something the industry should have done a long time ago by eliminating the
hardware keyboard.

[0] [https://youtu.be/9BnLbv6QYcA](https://youtu.be/9BnLbv6QYcA)

------
microdrum
When I invoke 1Password with ⌘\, I have to press the \ key reallllly hard. I
have to get my hand up on one finger, and use the mass of the hand on just one
finger, from a ninety-degree angle, to get that \\. That's because a little
piece of dust got into my keyboard.

~~~
lkurusa
This is pretty much what happened to me, except after a few keypresses, the
key broke and never recovered. Apple Store fixed it, though.

------
tonyedgecombe
My guess is the touch bar along with haptic feedback is going to replace the
whole keyboard.

~~~
amarka
My guess is that your joking, if not then you must be one of the few touchbar
fans ("there are dozen's of us...dozens!").

~~~
jessep
I hate the touchbar, but love touchid on my laptop

~~~
amarka
I'm in the same boat, I really like touchid. I have CAPS LOCK mapped to ESC
and have rarely if ever use anything but the function keys on the touchbar. I
wanted to like it and use it, but it just doesn't work well for me.

------
gressquel
let me piggy-back, is Apple going to have proper HDMI ports in future? Im
going surface book the moment my current macbook stops working.

~~~
satsuma
apple's mo has always been "why go with standardized ports when we can make
our own, nearly identical ports and sell you the adapters?"

i think usb is one of the only cases where they haven't. and thunderbolt, sort
of. apple loves their proprietary stuff though.

~~~
rootusrootus
That doesn't seem fair. The MBP sitting in front of me has mini DisplayPort,
USB, HDMI ... all are standards. The newest MBP has USB-C, which is a
standard. My last MBP also had FireWire, which was also standardized.

There are dongles to buy, but that seems to mostly have to do with such things
as Thunderbolt and the ability to piggyback older legacy technologies on newer
connectors.

Now if you were talking about the phone, I agree. But I also see the point --
micro USB is a terrible, terrible thing. As long as it's robust I would like
to see the next phone ditch Lightning for USB-C, but I am otherwise much
happier with Lightning connectors than I have ever been with micro USB.

------
jccalhoun
Yes, someone knows. (Seriously though, I hate it when people online will ask
"does anyone know....?" )

But to answer the question, apple say their plans ahead of time. I'm sure that
when they release their next model of laptop it will have a revised keyboard.

------
radoslawc
They will fix it eventually in their own way, as almost always after losing
class action lawsuit they release info saying 'some keyboards' and 'in
specific conditions', for 'some users' and so on. Then replacement will be
$175. But who else to say it better as my favourite Apple basher Louis
Rossman:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8)
(see description below video if you want tl;dr)

Many people report X1 to be great MBP replacement (I have mid 2014 MBP 13"
retina - couldn't be happier and 2017 MBP 15" with s*it strip - well keyboard
is awful as well as this touch strip) and from using X1 for a week and from
input from people @ work those are not that great either. First of all fan
noise and it's rpms it's very annoying, screen quality and resolution (after
using MBP with retina) is just horrible, touchpad is just rudimentary - works
but can be better.

------
alphabettsy
Wouldn’t there have to be an acknowledgement of the “issue” to address the
“issue”?

~~~
pier25
Well, there are a couple of class action lawsuits going on.

------
handbanana
If they do, I’ll buy one

------
zaroth
Well when the internals don’t provide meaningful productivity differentiation
for 90% of users for the last about 6-8 years now, and the MacBook Air design
circa 2012 is virtually indestructible, how else are they going to get their
users to upgrade machines every 2-3 years if not for shitty keyboard
redesigns?

~~~
nine_k
The glued-in battery (not endemic to Apple) genuinely wears down and forces
people to upgrade. Not in 2-3 years, though.

~~~
zaroth
Takes about 10 minutes to replace. I’ve done it and it was surprisingly easy.

There is no glue on my 2012 model.

[https://youtu.be/uOJKy7xVpIY?t=105](https://youtu.be/uOJKy7xVpIY?t=105)

