
Daydreaming about the future instead of doing work today - trevmckendrick
https://www.howitactuallyworks.com/archives/future_you_masturbation.html
======
dvt
Great piece.

Last year, I forced myself to release _something_ every two weeks -- even if
it wasn't finished or was just a poorly-written blog post. I can proudly say
it was one of the most productive years of my life[1]. Most of those projects
won't see the light of day -- no one will care and no one will notice -- but
_releasing_ is far better than endless planning.

And just to really hit it home: this year I built Lofi (a small Spotify player
replacement[2]) and I shared it on reddit[3] (and on HN). But if you read most
of the posts, it's a whole bunch of angry people arguing about Electron
sucking, about why the app is 100mb, about how C++ and Qt would be better,
etc. etc. The difference between me and those people? I'm already working on
my next project ;)

[1] [https://dvt.name/2019/01/06/retrospective-
stuff-2018/](https://dvt.name/2019/01/06/retrospective-stuff-2018/)

[2] [https://www.lofi.rocks/](https://www.lofi.rocks/)

[3]
[https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/aufj4m/lofi_a_...](https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/aufj4m/lofi_a_minimalist_spotify_player_with_webgl/)

~~~
jjeaff
I'm confused that so many people on this site seem to be working on ancient
weak sauce computers. The difference between a 1mb and 100mb app today is nil.
I run Slack, vscode, and tons of other apps. Even if they take few gigs of RAM
each, there's 62 more where that came from. They all run just fine.

It's like a forum full of carpenters that are using Black and Decker tools to
build houses.

~~~
lsen001
What's your target audience? Who are you building apps for? Yourself, with
64GB of RAM, or much more common users with 4-16GB?

~~~
yjftsjthsd-h
> or much more common users with 4-16GB?

Or the sizable portion of end-users who won't or can't upgrade past 2G; it's a
pain to do that on a modern system, but it does work.

------
egypturnash
Maybe the friend just doesn't _want_ to make a Serious Business out of this
yet, maybe he just enjoys having this side project. Maybe he's still refining
the physical design of these signs along with the software with every one he
builds. Maybe he's got enough sources of chaos and craziness in his life
already from work/family/the hairbrained schemes of his buddy Trevor and he
just wants a nice little hobby where he can fiddle around. Maybe he just does
not _need_ a Side Hustle in his life right now.

Maybe this is just what he's playing with instead of putting together model
kits, y'know?

It's quite possible to get lost in the weeds planning stuff with no forwards
motion. It's also possible to make really, really expensive mistakes by
plowing forwards. I've done both of those. There is an alternate reality where
the friend _has_ been looking for people to make this thing fast and cheap,
and is now sitting on a pile of these things that he can't sell at a price
point that will break even, much less make a profit, with an order of
magnitude more money than he is comfortable losing sunk into them. And maybe
that reality's Trevor just wrote a blog post talking about how this friend
should have done their research first, what kind of idiot doesn't do their
research?

I'm not saying forging ahead is always bad. I've done it a lot in the past.
Sometimes it's worked out, sometimes it hasn't. And when it doesn't work out
it is _a shitload of hassle and stress_ and I can only take so much of that at
once.

~~~
antt
> I've done both of those. There is an alternate reality where the friend has
> been looking for people to make this thing fast and cheap, and is now
> sitting on a pile of these things that he can't sell at a price point that
> will break even, much less make a profit, with an order of magnitude more
> money than he is comfortable losing sunk into them.

Been there, done that.

"Customers" that love the product, at the price point of the raw materials.

Charges that come at you from nowhere because you didn't hire an import agent
that knows widget X has anti-dumping duties attached to it for the next six
months.

Warehouses that look good until it rains and then your whole stock is ruined.
This one was actually the best thing that could happen, because between the
insurance and accounting the business finally broke even and I walked away
from it.

Hardware is different to software. It's all downside all the way. The only
thing I learned is that you should do the most pessimistic accounting you
possibly can for sales and manufacture and then divide the first by 10 and
multiple the second by 10 and you will be right for what will happen in the
first year.

------
wokwokwok
> Emailed someone where a call would be better?

Better for you? Or for them?

Funny how you can read something, mostly agree and then see an example and
nope right out of the whole idea because the example tells you the author has
an entirely different set of what ‘valuable’ is, compared to you.

Maybe doing the ‘hard thing’ of jumping straight into action is good in some
cases... but, mostly, it’s not.

Plan first. Act second. Evaluate third.

If you miss any of the steps, or get stuck at any of the steps you’re doing it
wrong.

I contend the authors supposition that most people get stuck on step 1 is
wrong.

Most people _I know_ get stuck on step 2, and give up without trying to
iterate on what they were trying to do, because they didn’t understand that
maybe step 1 didn’t come up with a perfect plan the first time around.

Sure, maybe it’s cool to have a step 0, which is ‘try it right now!’ to give
you some idea & experience on how to get started.

...but the basic contention I this article; “the best thing to do is just to
do _something_ right now”; is wrong, and most modern learning & self
development frameworks will back that assertion.

Isn’t there some famous fallacy thing about this being how terrible political
decisions are made?

~~~
aws_ls
>Plan first. Act second. Evaluate third.

Bingo. Why not plan? Also why not day dream sometimes? Some of the best days
I've had are also one of when I pause to take a stock. Once I just took a
notebook (physical) and went to a park. It was the best planning day, helping
me set future direction for next 6 months. Also Bill Gates is(/was) famous for
taking reading/thinking retreats.

Also your whole comment also summarizes my take on the article.

------
jedberg
The human mind is not a business. Fantasizing about the future is actually
integral to the functioning of the human mind. It builds neural pathways and
releases dopamine that makes you feel good about your choice, motivating you
to execute.

Without the fantasy, the reality would never come.

~~~
sdinsn
> motivating you to execute

The article is discussing fantasizing that does not result in action

~~~
jedberg
No the article is saying don't ever waste time fantasizing because it's the
same as writing new features in code that no one will use. It specifically
calls out things like buying workout clothes before you work out, or getting a
new journal before you start journaling.

~~~
jakubp
Maybe you missed the point of the article. The author is describing a common
issue where people have lots of ideas, plan them out in their heads and get
the reward in form of pleasure (anticipation of success, power, beauty,
anything). They don't imagine or plan actually doing the work, they plan for
wonderful outcomes. They never do what's necessary and become quite
frustrated, not knowing why. There was even psychological research into this
phenomenon if I recall correctly , and it yielded the somewhat surprising
result that this is a strong habitual behavior and thus fairly hard to change.

------
dschuetz
There is a rift between people, where there are some who can _do_ just about
anything, but they lack _great ideas_ (which makes them unhappy), and there
are people who have _many great ideas_ without the ability or determination to
_implement_ them (which makes them unhappy). People who can do both are
really, really rare.

Both former kinds of people struggle in their own way. Daydreamers don't work,
implementors can't dream. They plan, they invent, they struggle and fail. I
wonder if there is any skill set behind that, at all. If you can learn to
dream, or learn to _just do it_ , at all.

~~~
behringer
People who lack great ideas fail to do anything at all. What they don't
understand is that ideas come from doing things.

~~~
tachyonbeam
That depends. I'm in academia. I'm surrounded by MSc and PhD students. Some of
them are truly creative, but they are the minority. Most of them are happy to
implement an idea that was assigned to them by a professor they're working
with, or make small incremental extensions to existing research. In this line
of work, what matters most is getting publications. I would say (this is my
personal impression) that many successful academics are not creative types,
they conservative and incremental, but most importantly, hard working, detail
oriented and determined.

All that being said, I wish academia was more about really thinking out of the
box, playing with ideas and trying things that are a little more "out there",
but from what I've seen in the last decade, it isn't really the case, at least
not in STEM.

------
adpirz
Really great piece, take the time to read it.

I've been quite prone to this, and one thing that's helped is building systems
vs. goals, per Scott Adams[1][2]. If you read many stories of successful
people, you see a pattern in having habits or systems that were built at some
point that lead to those successes, as opposed to setting a specific goal and
trying to plan around that.

[1][https://blog.dilbert.com/2013/11/18/goals-vs-
systems/](https://blog.dilbert.com/2013/11/18/goals-vs-systems/)

[2][https://outline.com/TGYvt2](https://outline.com/TGYvt2)

------
StavrosK
I noticed many people doing the same thing with "to do"/"to read" lists.
They'll add items to their lists thinking they'll get around to doing them
_some_ day, not realizing that future me is probably just as lazy as present
me, and if I were going to do something, I would have done it now.

So, todo lists become a bit of intellectual masturbation in the sense of "oh
I'm not putting this off, I'm definitely going to do it, since it's on my todo
list!"

I have on my todo list (see the irony) to build a mobile todo list app where
tasks will disappear if not finished in a while, along with some other bells
and whistles (they'll all move to another screen where you can't remove them
and they'll mock you for ever), mostly as an art piece on this exact
phenomenon rather than a useful app.

~~~
bathMarm0t
I've found that todo lists only work if they're put in context of larger goals
and you have a system to repeatedly, frequently pop() the top of the list.
It's OK (and common!) to have a todo list of 100 things, as long as you give
yourself time to think about prioritization of the tasks. Someone on here
recommended "Work Clean" by Charnas. It's a little fluffy at the end, but he
does provides a structure with which to place and schedule tasks that I found
pretty useful called Daily Meeze. It's just meta-planning (plan/schedule 30
minutes out of every day to plan/schedule). Super simple, yet effective.

~~~
davidjnelson
This is a useful way to handle tasks. It sounds like backlog grooming in
scrum. It's nice to just write down the various ideas you get, regularly
prioritize them, then grab a few of them per sprint to finish and deploy to
prod at the end of that sprint.

------
linkmotif
This piece and its ilk are the real click bait of HN. Nothing new or
interesting said here, just another “fail fast and early” piece that misses
the bigger picture: namely, that unless you just want to make money—which is
cool—failing fast and early is not what everyone is about. Finding a markov
chain to a product is definitely a way to get there, if you just want to find
some product, any product, that will sell to somebody somewhere. But okay,
I’ve read this piece a hundred times. I get it. Please stop writing it, or at
least please stop upvoting it.

~~~
wahern
Maybe it's coincidence but IIRC there's some scientific literature that
suggests simply imagining success can trigger similar reward pathways as
actually achieving success.

This in turn may sap motivation. (Not sure if this consequence is part of the
science.) The remedy according to some sources is to avoid imagining success
or even the end state of your project. To maintain perseverance, try to stay
focused on the most immediate problems and potential future hurdles.

~~~
linkmotif
Your comment should have been the article.

But regarding:

> The remedy according to some sources is to avoid imagining success or even
> the end state of your project.

Is it really the remedy? I agree the problem you state is real, but how does
this, or all other possible ways to keep your eyes on the prize, the “remedy”?

Growing up I was on a competitive swim team, and one of the exercises we did
before meets was imagining the whole race, imagining how we would execute our
performance from start to finish. You would imagine the start, how you feel
fresh and easy, and then the middle, as you begin to feel yourself tire, and
then the end, when you’re exhausted but then the reward of finishing. It’s
about the whole race, I think, and day dreaming about the end doesn’t have to
be so bad.

------
joesb
Article like this is like how a fortuneteller works. It's vague and can be
interpreted in many ways.

> Put off the correct, hard work for the easier, less effective work?

What's correct? How does that not conflicts with "future you" problem?

You know that any one who is having the "future you problem" is also doing
that while thinking that they taking the correct hard work approach, right?

It's just one of those idea where you can just rationalize whether something
fits the philosophy.

------
alashley
> Complained about your dating prospects instead of making yourself more
> dateable?

Being dateable and actually finding people to date are two very different
things.

~~~
mav3rick
The former is almost always helpful . Rather than lamenting about the latter.

~~~
alashley
Makes sense.

------
gojomo
Compare the classic Ze Frank bit on 'brain crack':

[https://youtu.be/0sHCQWjTrJ8](https://youtu.be/0sHCQWjTrJ8)

------
daeken
NOTE TO ALL: The use of the word "mas...bation" will automatically kill your
comment. Might want to censor yourself, as silly (and understandable, in most
contexts) as it is.

~~~
draugadrotten
The use of the "mas...bation" word also automatically meant I will not forward
the link to co-workers or friends. So the author lost many potential readers
from it.

~~~
VBprogrammer
But it most eloquently describes the problem. We shouldn't have to self-censor
to get passed some prudish filter on a corporate network on which the reader
is probably already not supposed to be reading for fun.

~~~
OJFord
It's anything but eloquent.

------
hyperpallium
> You can picture how you’ll look and feel, the money in your bank account,
> the respect of your friends and peers.

This is visualizing rewards rather than the thing itself. In contrast,
visualizing the product you want, or people getting it (i.e the business
operation you want) is inspiring.

The difference is conceiving of yourself as a producer or as a consumer (of
rewards).

------
tomhoward
In the personal development/emotional healing technique I've most used in the
past few years, this concept is called "living in the future" and it's most
certainly been a deeply ingrained tendency for myself and others I know, and
is critical to overcome for one to make tangible progress in life.

A personal development coach I know trained me to stop talking to others about
the successful things I plan to do or expect to do, the theory being that the
subconscious/unconscious mind can't tell the difference between talking about
them and actually accomplishing them.

------
mattnewport
It's not this simple. Failure can be the result of too much planning and
research as well as too little. Programmers in particular may be more prone to
planning too much rather than doing too much but it's possible to overcorrect.
The general advice to try something and move forward when you're stuck in
analysis paralysis is useful and often good but it's also true that plenty of
people put plenty of time and effort into things that ultimately were a waste
of time and could probably have been avoided with a bit more planning or
research up front.

~~~
charleyramm
“When action grows unprofitable, gather information; when information grows
unprofitable, sleep.” Ursula K. Le Guin

------
ryanmarsh
If this was a form of cancer I would be Stage 4 and getting my affairs in
order.

So after years procrastinating on a book, doing research and taking notes but
not publishing one word I started blogging. I’ve only written 4 blog posts and
they get decent traffic. I was surprised. I’m trying to apply “do the work” to
other areas too.

~~~
shadowprofile76
also honestly curious. any specific efforts to get traffic or did you just
post away and let traffic come organically?

~~~
badpun
I wonder about this. Let's say I create a really good blog about some niche
subject, but I don't promote it in any way, so that no one links to it or even
knows about it. In such case, if no page on the Internet links to it, will it
even by indexed by the Google Search?

~~~
sdinsn
> if no page on the Internet links to it, will it even by indexed by the
> Google Search?

Probably not. To fix this problem, you create a sitemaps.xml on your server
and then give Google/Yahoo/etc. the link to it.

[https://support.google.com/webmasters/answer/156184?hl=en](https://support.google.com/webmasters/answer/156184?hl=en)

------
wallflower
If this article resonated with that tuning fork in your head, you might be
interested in “What's Your Future Worth?” by Peter Neuwirth.

[https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/whats-your-
future/97816...](https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/whats-your-
future/9781626563018/)

[https://www.amazon.com/Whats-Your-Future-Worth-
Decisions/dp/...](https://www.amazon.com/Whats-Your-Future-Worth-
Decisions/dp/1626563012)

------
throwaway713
I always wonder if people like Mark Zuckerberg or Elon Musk daydream of their
ideal future like most of us seem to do. They definitely seem to _act_ on
their vision more, but do they daydream as much as the rest of us?

~~~
MRD85
Acting on your vision is easier for people when they have access to large
pools of money. I'm not sure about Mark but Elon seemed like an entrepreneur
when I read about his early adulthood. Not an inventor, just someone who found
ways to make money. Then when he became rich he became a visionary.

~~~
koonsolo
> Acting on your vision is easier for people when they have access to large
> pools of money.

This is a highly oversimplified vision. It's true that Elon has way more money
at his disposal. But it's also true that he had the guts to put all of it on
the line for his vision.

If I was that rich (after PayPal), I would put money on the side that I would
never touch, and then try the business thing with the rest of it. I think most
of us would do that, or even retire at that point.

Putting all your money on the line (and let's face it, if you have millions,
you fall from higher than if you only have $100) really shows how dedicated
you are to your vision.

That's why we are talking about Elon here, and not about you or me.

~~~
imtringued
I don't see the risk. Even in the worst case scenario he can still become a
middle manager in some random company and get by until retirement.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
_You_ don't see that as a risk because it's not an outcome that you object to.
Many people would see that as failure and thus anything that might end up with
that outcome is risky.

------
jimmy1
> Whether you have a Tesla in your brain or a Tesla in real life doesn’t make
> a difference in how happy you are.

This quote from the end of the article reminded me of the famous chimpanzee
experiment where two chimps were hooked up to a brain scan, one was given a
banana to enjoy the other just allowed to watch, but both seemed to have the
same "pleasure zone" of the brain light up.

------
quickthrower2
Look past the title. It’s a good article.

~~~
lsen001
I found it confusing. Article says "Do the work" but gave 2 choices for the
friend: "What’s the priority? Writing software for future use cases, or
finding an assembler to build the signs for him?" If the friend wants to grow
the project into a business, this is a false dichotomy. The friend should be
doing both: adding value to his project by doing what he does best (enhance
the product offering) as well as delegating jobs that someone else can do
(find a builder). Either choice is "doing the work". Also, the friend has to
be able to walk and chew gum at the same time if he wants to expand.

------
hevi_jos
Daydreaming is the first step, necessary and extremely useful.Alone on her own
the visionary role does not go far enough though.

What happens is that usually the capability of visionary (seeing what does not
exist yet in front of you like it is real)is related with your personality.

People who has not this capability could not really see what does not exist,
but they are essential for following the roadmap(tracker) the good visionary
can design.

The tracker personality on her own can't really go far enough too. This person
does not really know where to go.

You can do both roles yourself, the visionary and the tracker, but that is
very hard because you have to switch roles, almost like Mr Jekyl and Mr Hyde.
And you will have a very strong tendency towards one of them.

Or you can partner with someone who is a "natural" tracker if you are a
natural "visionary". The sum of the parts will be much better than the
individual parts.

------
whiddershins
I don’t know. I’ve lived what the article describes and there’s truth there.

OTOH not everyone is required to actually manifest all their dreams. Maybe
it’s more fun and satisfying to tinker endlessly without actually starting a
real business.

Yes, it’s a problem that people live in the future. But also not everyone is
cut out to follow through on what they imagine.

For me, 99% of what I imagine is just an excuse to tinker, but I’ve followed
through on a tiny subset of things and that was great too. I like knowing I
actually “did it.” I like pointing to the accomplishment.

But there’s definitely a joy and peace in daydreaming and endlessly tinkering
without ruining everything by setting yourself up to argue with manufacturers,
look for funding, manage employees, live out of a tour bus, or any of the
other practical realities that go along with pursuing your dreams in a
professional capacity.

------
close04
> What we should all do is pick the path that has the best 3 feet

I hope I'm reading this quote correctly. This doesn't feel entirely right.
Short vs long term gratification is probably a much longer topic but I still
think a modicum of effort in getting the pros and cons for the most obvious of
choices is helpful. Certainly more than just picking the choice that sounds
good at the start.

Most long term projects have no immediate gratification. Based on the advice
above alone whenever you have some money you should pick the path that
provides the best immediate benefit and turn it into wine or icecream :).

Edit.

> In my friend’s case: follow the money!

The money you're definitely already making or the money you could possibly be
making?

------
mparr4
> Started a business by making a website instead of finding a customer?

How do you go about finding a customer without at least a prototype? You need
to do market research, sure, but how do you get a customer without a product?

~~~
Milank
Read this for example: [https://lifehacker.com/im-joel-gascoigne-and-this-is-
the-sto...](https://lifehacker.com/im-joel-gascoigne-and-this-is-the-story-
behind-buffer-1446437914)

~~~
mparr4
Wow. Great post. Thanks for sharing.

The heavy personal touch at first reminds me of PG’s quote: “Do things that
don’t scale”

I’ve recently launched a product, [https://bugbucket.io](https://bugbucket.io)
that solves a problem I have but I’m struggling to find that first customer.

The whole lightweight approach makes sense but now the problem is identifying
whether the experiment is a failure or just needs to get in front of more
folks...

~~~
Milank
You're welcome.

It takes some time to get used to lean principles, especially if you have a
dev background (as you do it seams). It's the opposite of "build it and they
will come" mantra, and dev people are always like "how do you mean sell it
before it's built?!" But it works. And it's a way better approach.

As for your tool, if you built it because you had the same problem, you are in
the perfect position. You should understand very well the pain points, who has
them, how it affects their everyday work and from there it should be easy to
make tactics on how to approach potential users, what are the best selling
points.

They say (and I completely agree) that the best sales person in a startup are
founders, because they know everything about the idea, they are passionate
about it and they don't give up easily.

Good luck!

------
sdrothrock
For people turned off by the title: "Future You Masturbation gives you the
pleasure of all your future accomplishments with none of the work. It’s your
brain tricking you into something that feels good today in exchange for lost
meaning and purpose and accomplishment in the future."

It actually sounds a lot like the concept of not telling people about dieting
or whatever long-term task you're engaging in due to the dopamine rush from
telling people rather than accomplishing things.

------
jonahb
The tone of this post is so superior and dickish I'd rather not listen to the
author.

~~~
buzzerbetrayed
Good advice is good advice, even if it is poorly delivered.

~~~
robc259
I disagree. As Marshall McLuhan said, "the medium is the message." Poorly
delivered messages are prone to be lost as noise.

~~~
oasisbob
This critique is one of rhetoric - which is not what McLuhan meant in the
concept contained in that quote at all.

Your complaint seems to be that the use of a sexual metaphor affects the ethos
of the speaker in the eyes of some.

That metaphor is part of the message, regardless of whether or not you like
it.

------
p4lindromica
This was good motivation. I've been editing a book that I've been working on
for over a year. I submitted it to a literary agent just now. It took less
than an hour. I'll probably fail. But I'm living in the now.

I also made the website first ;) -
[https://www.burnfastburnbright.com/](https://www.burnfastburnbright.com/)

------
woogiewonka
This article hits me right in the gut because I'm guilty of every one of those
HAVE YOU EVERs. Ouch.

Even as we speak, I'm here commenting away (why?) on Hacker News when I should
be publishing posts, building a list, growing my business so I can find a
product in the service and getting it done already. Uuugh, just saying that
makes me feel terrible. How do I overcome this...

~~~
photonios
You could find some people to work together with. In my experience, it makes a
bit easier to keep going because you are supporting and motivating each other.

------
kgwxd
Fuck myself, literally. This is me for the past 20 years. Imagining myself
writing GPL licensed software, in Clojure, using Vim through an actual (not
emulated) Linux terminal, for the domain I have the most knowledge, making
millions.

:%s/Clojure/IDEALISTIC_LANGUAGE_OF_12_YEARS_AGO/g for older projects.

~~~
imhoguy
> in Clojure, using Vim

Ouch, shoudn't it be Emacs? /s

~~~
kgwxd
I tried so hard to use Emacs, the pinky pain is real :) I know about parinfer
but, oddly, Vim has better tools for navigating through parens et al out of
the box.

------
yomritoyj
When it comes to masturbation narrowly defined, most people now accept that it
is not harmful or sinful. Nor is it a sign of a failed sex life. I believe
that we should have the same attitude towards more general forms of self-
gratification.

~~~
pawelmurias
What's your source?

------
monster_group
The title needs to have NSFW appended to it. I just realized I clicked on a
URL (from my work computer) with a word that is probably on IT's blacklist
somewhere.

~~~
OJFord
Not actually blacklisted here, but the usage is frequent and totally
unnecessary. An unfortunate detraction from an otherwise good article.

------
PieUser
How is it related to masturbation I do not understand.

~~~
wahern
It's a euphemism for self-gratification and self-indulgence.

------
nicoburns
Does anyone know where I can buy one of those signs?

~~~
rvalue
What happens when you get disturbed even with the sign on?

~~~
nicoburns
Same as without the sign. It could be a useful communication tool though.

------
Paul-ish
One related study[1] found that when you tell people about your goal, you are
less likely to actually achieve your task.

[1]
[http://www.psych.nyu.edu/gollwitzer/09_Gollwitzer_Sheeran_Se...](http://www.psych.nyu.edu/gollwitzer/09_Gollwitzer_Sheeran_Seifert_Michalski_When_Intentions_.pdf)

------
jchook
The War of Art by Steven Pressfield.

If you love this article you will love this book.

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trevmckendrick
Why did this get penalized from #1 down to ~15?

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mactyler
Yikes. This is a really good one.

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sidcool
This hits home. I am personally a culprit in daydreaming and building castles
in air.

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jjtheblunt
definitely the stupidest title i've ever seen

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MadWombat
"Emailed someone where a call would be better?"

There are no such circumstances. Fuck voice calls.

