
Logitech limits number of additions and deletions of Harmony Hub devices - rahuldottech
https://www.reddit.com/r/homeautomation/comments/esiv9b/psa_to_harmony_hub_users_avoid_unnecessary/
======
kolp
So first Sonos, and now Logitech, effectively bricking devices to discourage
and impede a second hand market for their products.

Not only is it anti-consumer, it's ecologically unsound, preventing re-use of
a working product and encouraging more plastic crap to go to landfill.

Interesting to note that these are both premium brands. Are they relying on
the majority of their customers being non tech savvy and unaware of the
policy, or are they betting that most customers will accept the practice?

My guess is that they're assuming that revenue from customers forced to
purchase a new, not secondhand product, exceeds revenue loss from those who
are aware of the policy and won't purchase. Short term thinking, at best.

~~~
alex_duf
I think they rely on laziness.

It's easier to buy a new product than complain about it to support, so out of
a 100, maybe 5 will complain, and maybe 60 will buy a new product.

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teekert
Is it really so hard for companies to not do these shitty things? What would
the increase in profit be? Does outweigh all the negative PR? Do they even
think about this? There must be some rationale....

~~~
perceptronas
It does not. Probably the decisions are not thought out that well. In the end
these things haunt them for years. Look at m$, even after all the years of
open sourcing, contributing and etc. they are still not trusted. Few other
examples pop to my mind: medium.com, oracle, google (graveyard), ethereum
(fork), 2016+ apple keyboards and so on

~~~
tachion
Except that it doesn't really matter and most people in general don't care
because they don't know. Say what you want about Microsoft, but the fact is
the world runs on Windows and MS Office with exceptions for fraction of macs
and some weird geeks running some funny penguin systems. Not only that, but if
you're young enough you never had a chance to experience the 'evil Microsoft'.
Same goes in similar fashion for other companies you've mentioned:
Oracle/Ethereum - what's that? Google - the world runs on it and Gmail. Apple
keyboards - 'it works for me' and so on and so forth, sadly.

~~~
perceptronas
I do agree with you on general point. However, I don't think reputations are
to be dealt in absolutes. I would like to discuss your points one by one:

> Microsoft

* MS Office is still the best office suite as of today, I don't think anyone would argue.

* Windows is still the most 'compatible' and 'easy to use' OS today for non-apple hardware. I don't think penguin system users will argue. This is coming from someone who used linux with breaks for 10~ years. It is still _hard_ to get it working as it was years ago. However, for years I heard many developers refusing to consider anything .NET, MSSQL,... related to be picked for tech stacks due microsoft history and current ecosystem. Money definitely lost on their part

> Oracle

* Same, tech people refusing to get involved with Oracle due their litigious nature. Money definitely lost

> Ethereum

* I am not the best person to talk about this and this might not be the example. Fork reduced my trust in cryptos in general as my expectations were different.

> Google

* Gmail is great email service. On top of that free. Same with Google search. However I would argue that Google new products which "lock you in" will not be as popular because of their abandonment of many services

> Apple keyboards

* This is more personal, but I saw similar experiences from others. Terrible keyboard, terrible replacement keyboard reduced my trust so much that I moved from their ecosystem. This is on top that components were soldered resulting in non modular expensive laptops (can't replace it myself fast/cheap). Money definitely lost on their part

Edit: formatting

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ayodio
My squeezebox radio is a damn fine machine with the best sound among my
bluetooth speakers, but it is now almost completely useless since it has not
been updated in years and spotify dropped support.

This is planned obsolescence at its worst, opening up firmware once you drop
support for a product should be mandatory.

~~~
dreen
This is not planned obsolescence. People used to complain about PO but with
smart devices there is no need for it, the manufacturer can just disable your
device remotely and invent some bullshit business reason for it.

~~~
Zagitta
Is there a term for that? I was thinking "hostile obsolescence" or "active
obsolescence".

~~~
pseudalopex
Obsolescence as a service.

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rahuldottech
See the comment on Limitations on Unifying Devices too:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/homeautomation/comments/esiv9b/psa_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/homeautomation/comments/esiv9b/psa_to_harmony_hub_users_avoid_unnecessary/)

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_def
That is insane. What could possibly lead to those decisions?

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m-p-3
Greed mostly.

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MarkSweep
Ok, I will never by anything from Logitech. They obvious have zero respect for
their customers.

I wonder how the product manager sold this feature to management? I don’t
think many people’s bonus is contingent on “let maximize how hated our brand
it”.

~~~
baq
they still make the best right handed mice, after all these years.

but yeah, the Hub was an interesting piece of tech I maybe wanted to get
sometime, not anymore.

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Fire-Dragon-DoL
I actually have to disagree, I bought Logitech stuff for the last 14 years. At
some point, anything I bought from them was amazing (i have a g9 that lasted
me 10 years, I still use the g600, various keyboards, the g13 for gaming).

Now, I purchased the G502 and used it for a year (at work and home, lot of
use). I had to stop, their pointy finger area is elevated instead of
"dropping" like traditional mouse. The consequences are that you put strength
through the whole finger for a click, rather than a soft push on the tip. I
developed finger pain after a year, had to switch mouse.

~~~
baq
thanks for the warning. what did you change to?

~~~
Fire-Dragon-DoL
I had an unused g600 and went back to that. It's comfortable, although I do
miss the "free spin" of the wheel. I use the 3rd mouse button as middle click
(it's on the ring finger). Since I use that a lot, saves me dealing with hard
to click wheel buttons

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rahuldottech
> Due to the product Terms of Use. Next time, your remote will no longer be
> able to make further updates to its configuration, when it gets disabled.

How can this possibly be a thing on a device you paid for and own?

I mean, I know how it can be implemented through software, but why is it not
illegal?

~~~
jwr
I suspect what you paid for and what you own is the hardware itself. The rest
(software) is licensed on certain terms.

I don't think this distinction would hold up in court, though, at least in the
EU, where consumer rights are somewhat protected. When you buy a physical
device with certain functionality described on the box, you have a reasonable
expectation that it will deliver said functionality.

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oefrha
What’s next, geofencing so that devices are bricked once they leave the
building in which they’re first set up?

~~~
jotm
VCRs had something like that due to technical differences. DVD players had
region locking on purpose.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD_region_code](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD_region_code)

Vodafone DE had exactly what you describe with their home 4G modems - limited
to within a km or post code of your home iirc. Still probably does.

~~~
Robin_Message
To be fair, a home modem which you are renting as part of a contract to
receive 4G under certain terms is quite different to a consumer product you
bought in a shop bricking itself when you sell it to someone.

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AsusFan
Well, that sucks.

IMHO, Logitech has (or is it had?) pretty outstanding hardware. I had two
RumblePad 2 (the original ones) that survived over 10 years of abuse (buttone
mashing, dropping, rage due to losing to my brother 30 times in a row in
fighting games). Still the best gamepads I've ever used.

Are there any realistic alternatives to Logitech?

~~~
saiya-jin
Microsoft's Xbox ones are actually preferred and compatible these days on PC.
They work out of the box.

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rasz
and so it turns out "Smart" just means "always online DRM for hardware".

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_Microft
Would people who buy used devices actually buy a new one instead if they can
not find a used one? I've got a vague feeling that the overlap of used- and
new-buyers might not be large enough to justify the practice.

It reminds a bit of movie piracy where exorbitant losses were claimed while
ignoring that people would not have bought _each and every_ movie instead of
pirating it.

~~~
TeMPOraL
The overlap probably isn't big, but it depends on the type of device. For
instance, I've bought plenty of used computer hardware from a certain local
vendor selling off-lease equipment. So at the cost of accepting that the
device was used for a year or two in some company and may have a scratch here
and there, I could score a decent display or a laptop at 1/3 of the price of a
new model. If I can't find what I want this way, I usually do pony up and buy
new.

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jaclaz
I don't get the rationale behind these policies.

I mean, there must be a set number of allowed resets/additions/deletions.

Two possible extreme cases:

1) this (unknown) set amount is so large that the overwhelming majority of
users (let's say 99%) won't ever hit it

2) this (unknown) set amount is so small that the overwhelming majority of
users (let's say 99%) is likely to hit it before or later

If #1 it makes no sense as it affects such a small number of devices to be
irrelevant, if #2 it makes no sense because it would cause an uproar of the
customer base.

And the sheer fact that there is a set limit to reset/additions/delections
that is not explicited in documentation exposes the manufacturer to possible
lawsuits.

 _Cui bono_?

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cui_bono](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cui_bono)

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Keverw
Wow this is crappy. I know you didn’t really own your software, but sounds
like you don’t even own hardware products anymore either. Then I know this is
a worry about cars and tractors too, I think years ago one was trying to say
it’s copyright infringement to repair your own tractor.

~~~
m-p-3
John Deere is the company you have in mind.

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rkagerer
That's despicable.

I bought a Harmony Hub a while ago to turn my projector on and off (and set my
stereo to the right input) with Amazon Alexa. The UI and setup process are
really terrible. Can anyone recommend a good alternative?

(I actually intended it just as a stopgap until I hack my own IoT IR blaster,
but haven't gotten around to it)

~~~
wahlis
I am not aware of any serious competition. But it seems like a fairly simple
product for a startup to create, and the market is probably huge.

~~~
baq
the IR signals DB though...

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m-p-3
This is the kind of thing I'd send Logitech to small claim court if that
happened to me. If you can't play nice with a device I purchased and own, then
I deserve to get my money back.

It sucks, I kinda like Logitech products and own many, but unless they change
their practices, they're on my blacklist.

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tsukurimashou
There it is, even companies that had good reputation start doing it. You no
longer own what you guy, you now have everything as a service, even the
hardware you think you own.

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beastcoast
What happened to the company that had a generous warranty policy? I went
through 3 keyboard replacements for free and got a newer model each time. I
miss that.

~~~
thrwaway69
Can you explain the reason for replacing your keyboard 3 times and in what
frame time?

That seems a bit excessive.

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Joseph-Stalin
Eh, this is a little too authoritarian for me.

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qiqitori
Current title: "Logitech limits number of device resets to prevent reselling"

Is there a way to down-vote stories? This is just a link to a reddit thread
where one or more random people think it might be "to prevent reselling", and
there are numerous other hypotheses in the same thread...

~~~
_Microft
Submissions can not be downvoted but they can be flagged. If there is no
_flag_ link below the submission title, it is because you do not have reached
the karma-threshold for it. The threshold is most likely there to prevent
abuse of the downvote or flag feature by new accounts. If I remember correctly
I could downvote after reaching approximately 500 karma.

