
Reddit to go dark on Jan 18 to protest SOPA - lindowe
http://blog.reddit.com/2012/01/stopped-they-must-be-on-this-all.html
======
Joakal
Oh no, please stop focusing only on SOPA or lesser part of Protect IP! Those
two are just two battles by anti-Internet groups.

They tried one tactic with SOPA to fool people in thinking it was delayed
until next year:
[http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/nfrru/sopa_has_n...](http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/nfrru/sopa_has_not_been_postponed_to_2012_the_committee/)

There had been many anti-Internet attempts implemented and proposed: SOPA,
DMCA, PROTECT-IP, COICA, CEST, OPENA, ACTA and more.

PLEASE. Demand Internet Freedom bills in place of such bills. Protect not only
current and future Internet businesses, but also the future of children's
access to knowledge and ability to share (Some people think the anti-SOPA are
just Internet companies).

For example, making it illegal for government or corporations to shut down
domains without due process. There's more potential in the SOPA by simply re-
wording it to be pro-Internet Freedom.

Bonus: It'll make such Internet Freedom bills a template for pushing Internet
Freedom on other countries! Especially UK and Australia.

If they won't stop outlawing/controlling parts of the Internet, then we need
to fight back in outlawing anti-Internet attempts.

The war against the Internet will continue after SOPA.

Edit: I sent a message to reddit admins again (several attempts already in
past). If you know any of the reddit admins, please pass on this Internet
Freedom message quickly!

2nd Edit: hueypriest acknowledges the message: "We are well aware that the
fight will continue long after SOPA/PIPA, and that this is just the first
battle."

~~~
coffeemug
_making it illegal for government or corporations to shut down domains without
due process_

I think that going down the path of having the legislative branch pass laws to
protect rights that are already clearly protected by the constitution is a
really bad idea. For example, having congress protect the right of peaceful
assembly seems preposterous. Doing so would imply that encroaching on the
right of peaceful assembly is even an option, which, in a civilized democratic
society, it isn't. The internet should be no different.

As much as technies like to complain about our representatives, the reality is
that they do a reasonably good job representing the overwhelming majority of
the population. _Most_ people who have families to take care of don't know or
care for SOPA, and would probably support curbing piracy, hate sites, and
child pornography via DNS blackouts (if they knew what DNS meant). Like it or
not, they _are_ the majority of the electorate.

The proper way to ensure that the internet remains free and open is to educate
the populace. Failing that, we need to put pressure on congress on bill-by-
bill basis. Failing that, it's the Supreme Court's job to declare any
encroachment on our rights as unconstitutional.

We don't need to pass laws to protect rights that are already protected
because it legitimizes encroachment on our rights in general and blurs the
lines between different branches of government in ways they weren't meant to
blurred. It's a slippery slope and a really bad road to go on.

~~~
bermanoid
I can't help but think that the only way to avoid this sort of meddling is to
make it technically impossible.

To some extent, this is on us: the Internet, at its core, is just a bunch of
computers that are all physically connected, with protocols for sending
messages to each other. We should have, from the outset, made sure that as
long as computers have a physical connection, sending data between them in a
standardized way was solid and unbreakable, even with malicious actors. We
should have been considering how to design this system so that even if a
government that controls a large (say up to 50%) subset of the nodes tries,
communications between certain nodes could never be blocked without degrading
communications between all blocks and losing the entire functionality. _Then_
we'd be justified in saying that bills like this would destroy the Internet,
and nobody would ever even try to pass them.

Unfortunately, as thing stand, DNS is a too-easy weak-point in the
infrastructure, so unsurprisingly, repressive governments target it as a way
of imposing their will on the Internet. With a single point of failure, are we
really surprised that governments will pick it out and exploit it? We had many
other architectural options, did we perhaps choose one that was just too
trusting when put up against the shitty world that we live in?

Maybe I'm just naive, perhaps I don't understand the details and subtleties
and just assume that a technical solution would be easier to come up with than
it really is; I'm not a crypto or networks expert, so maybe the current
situation is the only viable one. I'm sure any better solution would not be
simple, and I'm sure it would require a lot of research. But in any case, it
doesn't exist, so we're pretty much screwed for the moment.

Issues like this make me think that dark-net plans are extremely useful, but
happening far too late to matter in the real world, where everyone already
follows protocols that allow for network-destroying interventions...

~~~
Kaizyn
When the Internet was started, the researchers had no concept of the Internet
growing to become a world-wide phenomenon where bad actors wold also exist on
the network. Everyone involved was basically from an academic/research
background and the funding was coming from DARPA. Even now, could you imagine
researchers at say Stanford and Berkeley devising research collaboration
methods that assume that either organization's management/governance will
interfere with or act maliciously against that collaboration effort?

~~~
bravura
_Even now, could you imagine researchers at say Stanford and Berkeley devising
research collaboration methods that assume that either organization's
management/governance will interfere with or act maliciously against that
collaboration effort?_

Yes, I could.

I'm not saying that a technological approach to this problem is best. (I
prefer a political response.)

But I believe that current knowledge of computer security is sufficiently
advanced that a more secure internet could be invented.

------
Mizza
How would HN feel about joining in support? I would be in favor of it.

My god.. the productive output of Silicon Valley is going to triple on the
18th!

~~~
foob
My first though after reading your comment was that there's probably a very
small number of people that read HN and support SOPA. After thinking about it
a little bit more I realize that my dismissive attitude was inappropriate.

When Reddit goes down there are going to be news stories about it and these
will raise awareness about the issue to people who aren't Reddit users. If HN
or any other sites join in then they will most likely be mentioned in these
articles and to the casual reader this will only make the message stronger
even if they aren't familiar with the actual sites. In addition, HN has a huge
audience of people who are in a position to blackout their own sites. If HN
were to join in then I think that this could be influential in making these
people consider more seriously whether they should follow suit which will only
further the reach of these actions. At the very least, HN being down could
serve as a good reminder that opposing SOPA isn't enough by itself and that if
we really care about this then we should be contacting representatives or
doing something else that could have even a small impact.

For these reasons, I would also be in favor of HN joining in support.

~~~
skymt
On the other hand, with the common understanding of the word "hacker", do we
really want news stories mentioning a site called Hacker News opposing SOPA?

~~~
PhearTheCeal
How about a site called Y Combinator opposing SOPA?

~~~
AgentConundrum
It's up to the media, not us, what we're called when this is reported. It's
_much_ more likely that they would just go with 'Hacker News', as that's what
it's known as.

~~~
hessenwolf
I was initially worried about looking up Hacker News at all from a work
computer due to the name. Then my lack of caring overtook my concern.

------
llambda
Blacking out Google is one thing and something that I hope happens if all else
fails. Now I'm sure blacking out Reddit will at least get a certain
demographic in the U.S. to notice, but isn't this the same demographic that is
already working to remove certain members of Congress for their support of
SOPA? So my question: what kind of impact will this have? Certainly there
won't be too many Congress members worked up over a blacked out Reddit...

~~~
capkutay
Google is a publicly traded company with millions of daily users. Wouldn't
they experience some repercussions if they were to take part in a black out? I
doubt a company in their position would do something like that.

~~~
jlarocco
What repercussions are you talking about?

Reddit isn't as large as Google, but they also have millions of daily users
and depend on their site traffic for their income.

~~~
biot
Fiduciary duty to shareholders. A blackout preventing searches (rather than an
informative message that users can easily dismiss) would impact revenue and
might result in a shareholder lawsuit. Not to mention the impact to AdSense
[edit: I meant to say AdWords] advertisers who might see that as an SLA
violation.

~~~
jlarocco
Does AdSense have an SLA? In any case, I'd be shocked if the contracts weren't
in terms of number of searches. If 0 searches are done, there will be 0
AdSense "hits".

The "fiduciary duty" to shareholders seems pretty far fetched and could be
argued the other way as well. Enforcing SOPA will be a heavy financial burden
and negatively impact future performance, therefore not using every means
necessary to block SOPA is also a breach of "fiduciary duty".

~~~
biot
I completely agree that it could go both ways. However, anybody can sue for
anything these days. While opposing SOPA is the responsible choice, I can see
a potential shareholder suit claiming that opposing SOPA could be done without
taking drastic measures (ie: a blackout rather than a dismissible message)
that immediately impact revenue.

------
gojomo
Why not a smart missile rather than a nuke?

Sites should only go completely dark for those users who appear to be
geographically inside the district of SOPA-supporting legislators. "Your
legislator wants an censorship-without-trial kill-switch for internet sites,
so we're on strike against your district today."

~~~
DennisP
Even people outside the district can donate to opponents. There are also
plenty of legislators who aren't committed yet, and it's probably even more
important to pressure them.

~~~
gojomo
Oh, you show an interstitial to everyone. It's just milder for those in
'friendly' districts, medium-annoying when the legislator is uncommitted, and
draconian when the legislator is pro-SOPA. And because of the large size of
Senatorial districts (states) and how many Senators are PIPA supporters,
plenty of people get the near-total blackout.

The people who get, 'attaboys' for having better local legislators can still
be directed to the nearest (or most vulnerable) problem legislators, or
fundraising campaigns.

I suspect the 'sting' of being _in a bad district_ could motivate more emotion
and action than just a blanket blackout. When people call their
friends/relatives in other districts and find who does and doesn't have
access, there could be more buzz.

A worldwide blackout just annoys people overseas with silly American
parochialism. A nationwide blackout educates, somewhat, but also could be seen
as a sort of 'snow day', "ah, well, let's wait it out."

Differential punishment serves to both agitate the relevant voters more – "why
are we unable to access reddit when Suzy in Oregon can?" – and _focus_ the
emotion against specific actionable targets.

------
c1sc0
I'm 100% in favor of HN blacking out. On top of that, I have another 'non-
violent' proposal for how techies could protest this:

Let's create 'freedom.txt' files in the root of our servers. A simple text-
file stating why the owner of the site (YOU!) opposes internet censorship.

It's a simple & geeky way to make a statement. You can do it _right now_ and
it should make it a bit easier to exactly count how many people oppose this
bullshit.

Here's an example I wrote a week ago but kinda neglected promoting until now:
<http://fr.anc.is/2012/01/01/freedom.txt/>

~~~
guard-of-terra
There's no point in blacking out for the whole world. Sites should black out
for US users while being available from outside. Bonus point: US users
learning to use VPN etc.

~~~
c1sc0
Quite the contrary: this is a worldwide problem. E.g. I'm from Europe & I
despise our politician's tendency to copy/paste US law.

~~~
guard-of-terra
Then blackout on a separate day. To educate people about your specific
problem.

~~~
c1sc0
No, the purpose of a coordinated worldwide blackout is to make it clear that
this is a transnational problem. It is _not_ 'my specific problem'. US
outsiders need to make clear that they are watching you & will not tolerate
this kind of shit in their home-countries.

------
brezina
no matter what site does the blackout, they need to run a simple web app that
generates your representative's phone number based on zip code.

~~~
bryanh
One up that: do HTML5 location services + geo IP, optional zip if that is
inaccurate.

~~~
r4vik
tumblr did this and it generated a massive number of calls, we need to make it
as simple as including a script tag and co-ordinate with everyone

------
dustyreagan
Someone needs to write a universal javascript plugin that would create an
interstitial landing page with info and action items about SOPA. The user
could then dismiss the interstitial page, and it'd roll up as a bar at the top
of the site.

The javascript would be easy for site admins to add, and it would be easy to
distribute.

I don't want to make this, but I'd add it to my sites if it was designed well.
:)

------
louislouis
A prime example of why money needs to be taken out of politics. It takes all
this shouting from the 99% but nothing speaks to the congress members like the
sweet dollars of the 1%.

If wikipedia was able to raise $20M in donations, an anti-sopa fund raised for
lobbying could be quite effective, but then congress members would look
utterly corrupt.

------
Sniffnoy
Does anyone know what happened to Wikipedia's proposed blackout? It would be
best if the different websites doing this could coordinate.

------
jebblue
Am I the only HN participant who is on the fence about SOPA?

~~~
danilocampos
It would seem so. But I suspect, given the obnoxiousness of the bill, its
proponents and its consequences, you're more likely the only HN participant
who hasn't read much about SOPA and is willing to say so out loud.

~~~
jebblue
>> you're more likely the only HN participant who hasn't read much about SOPA

You're judging me.

>> is willing to say so out loud.

Now you're passively aggressively insulting me.

------
The_Sponge
I use a subreddit to collaborate with team members. I know this is an extreme
situation, and an odd use, but it's damn inconvenient.

~~~
untog
Well that's kind of the point, isn't it? If SOPA passes then your access to
Reddit will never be guaranteed. It's damn inconvenient, but it's small fry
compared to the possible inconvenience in the future.

~~~
jf
Exactly. The_Sponge, I propose that your team spend some of that day
contacting your representatives and tell them how SOPA/PIPA will impact your
real world, everyday work.

------
nextparadigms
While putting up an interstitial to warn about SOPA/PIPA and get people to
call their representatives would be almost as effective in its short term
impact on those 2 bills, I think completely blacking out is a much more
effective _long term_ strategy.

The chance that politicians would try something like SOPA/PIPA anytime soon,
if all major sites go dark in that day, is much smaller. Showing an
interstitial could be a form of protest against _anything_. Going dark is
clearly a form of protest against _censorship_. And I don't think any
politician will want to be associated with that in the future.

------
rmc
I kinda wish they would just black it out for the USA only (based on IP
address). Then have a message saying "The USA would lose out on the tech race"

~~~
freehunter
If the US shuts down a website, it affects the whole world. Don't think other
governments aren't planning something similar.

~~~
rmc
I think it should be done to convince USA policymakers to wake up. Not all
countries copy USA in all laws (cf. EU employment rights), so this "USA-only
blackout" might convince USA policymakers that SOPA will make the USA
unattractive

------
molmalo
Wouldn't it be better if instead of going dark, every single page displays a
full window message, explaing the situation about SOPA, showing the picture,
name, phone number of the us representative for the area of the visitor (using
geoip). And letting the user close that message after a certain amount of
time.

That way, the users will still be able to coordinate their actions. If not,
you are giving SOPA supporters a big help, by generating chaos between the
ones who opposes the bill.

------
cyanbane
Really need Facebook/Twitter to do the same to strike a nerve with a large
demographic. Google would definitely bring attention to the cause, but the
ability to broadcast oneself / status on a personal level needs to be hindered
to have a meaningful impact. I almost might want Google to stay online and
display information about SOPA on the homepage. a la "Why is the internet
blacked out today?" .. consumption/direction to information is their strength.

------
cookiecaper
Assuming this spreads, I believe a potential ramification of major sites
blacking out would be new laws that would attempt to make such black outs
illegal.

It could be seen as equivalent to strikes in essential service industries like
transportation. Such strikes are semi-regulated and governments can and have
ordered strikers back on the job to maintain public order. I see this
possibility as a potentially major unintended consequence of putting Facebook
"on strike".

~~~
nkohari
Facebook is in no way as vital to public order as the transportation system.
Further, there's no way the government can force a private corporation to do
anything, short of nationalizing it (and good luck there).

------
helium
I wish Reddit would make their planned anti SOPA page available as a template
for other sites that wish to show their solidarity and join them on the day.

------
zerostar07
Wouldn't it be more effective if Google and Paypal threatened to move their
base outside the US, so they can't be affected by SOPA?

~~~
cobbal
SOPA is actually aimed at foreign sites; this is the motivation behind SOPA
blocking at the DNS level instead of going after the companies.

~~~
zerostar07
It's about foreign sites, but the legal action concerns the business of
american companies only.

OpenDNS says they may to move the to the Cayman islands:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Online_Piracy_Act#Negative...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Online_Piracy_Act#Negative_impact_on_DNS.2C_DNSSEC_and_Internet_security)

~~~
cobbal
True, but the direct legal action wouldn't threaten Google and other
businesses much (Google does run DNS servers, but it's not their main gig) so
moving outside the country would accomplish very little from a technical
standpoint.

~~~
zerostar07
Example: A few injuctions from major studios against google for not removing
results or banning adsense accounts or even blocking google checkout accounts
on time could result in major losses for the company. If they were based
outside the US, they'd be protected.

~~~
cobbal
My mistake, with all the spotlight going to the DNS side of SOPA I had
forgotten it also included requirements about payments.

------
swalsh
To reinforce the chain reaction ramifications of SOPA, Imgur, a site very
dependent on the success of Reddit will also be impacted.

------
Pelayo
Is blacking out HN really necessary? Is there anyone here that doesn't know
about SOPA/PIPA and the threat they represent?(I would ask the same about
reddit but since I don't read the site I don't know if they have a broader
demo)

I suppose the whole point in doing the blackout would be to draw attention to
people who haven't realized there is problem.

------
tomjen3
So if they go dark for SOPA, why not NDAA? that one was even worse. No point
in internet access when you are dead.

Or what about a military action against Iran -- surely millions death from
radiation poising would be bad, even if they aren't US citizens?

Or what about the Iraq war? Reddit was around then.

------
monochromatic
I really don't understand the point of this on reddit. EVERYONE on reddit has
been hearing about SOPA continually for the last month. You don't raise
awareness of an issue by putting it in front of people who already know about
it.

------
pathik
No offense, but Reddit going dark will affect only us. No one else will even
notice. If something like Wikipedia goes dark, that would be something.
Everyone will be forced to take notice.

------
cl8ton
Not only do I support this on Jan 18... I will be posting links to Reddit and
hopefully HN on all the non technical forums (auto racing) I visit in support!

------
jonursenbach
Good for them, though I still find it odd how silent Digg has been on this
matter even though it would most definitely completely destroy them.

------
Unregistered
Can't help thinking it's a better strategy for everyone to stay open, and use
the day's revenue for lobbying. money talks.

------
iuguy
From this year, January 18th will forever be known as the Internet's most
productive day.

------
efader
Wrong idea. Boycott companies that support SOPA. Look at what happened to Go
Daddy.

~~~
maccylo
What exactly? They're not bankrupt, just gained some bad rep and continued
working.

------
gumba
So SOPA is not that bad after all. ;-)

------
maeon3
I'll be taking down my site down Jan 18 as well.

------
drhowarddrfine
Here is the only thing that will happen: doing this will just piss people off
that they can't get to their site. Then, by the end of the next day, no one
will remember it happened at all.

------
savrajsingh
Jan 18 will be a productive day.

------
ibejoeb
@scoofy: it looks like you might be on to something. Reddit quickly adopted
this proposed date.

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3441117>

~~~
endianswap
Not to crush your idea, but January 18 is when Alexis “kn0thing” Ohanian will
be testifying about SOPA in front of Congress. I imagine if the testifying
were to happen on January 19th the blackout would be then as well.

~~~
kevinh
Setting the blackout of reddit for a day when he can't use it anyway?
Brilliant.

------
zerostar07
Do i smell an opportunity for competing sites? interesting...

------
rogerclark
reddit is a horrible hellhole

