
Ask HN: Non-programming part time jobs? - Tichy
While I am a software developer, somehow the thought of working for another company depresses me a lot at the moment. I guess ultimately I enjoy thinking about concepts more than the actual programming. Programming is a means to an end to realize my ideas. But programming for another company would mean programming for programming's sake. (Just trying to understand why the thought depresses me so much).<p>And yet, I need money. I wish I could think of any other way to earn minimum living expenses than developing. I'd love to just work in a cafe or a book shop for a couple of days, but I worry that it might not pay well enough.<p>Part time developer jobs are also hard to come by (which would leave me time to work on my own projects, hopefully alleviating my depression).<p>Maybe somebody here has ideas for a middle road?<p>It would also be great to work not sitting at a desk all the time.
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patio11
Tutoring has a lot to recommend it, depending on where you live and your
ability to get clients. You need more clients than a freelance programmer
would, but the hourly pay is not necessarily that different, particularly for
well-heeled clientelle. Paying a lot of money is how you know you're getting
quality. :)

(Some at my previous day job once remarked that it would be cheaper to order
me to do tutoring than to pay for a freelance English tutor, given the hourly
equivalent of what Japanese salarymen my age made versus the typical price of
an hour of English instruction in this neck of the woods.)

Edit to add:

That aside isn't quite so useful for folks not here. Let me hum a few bars:
students at highly competitive suburban high schools, students studying for
the LSAT, working professionals with gaps that are impeding their career
growth, and middle class women who are filling a hole in their life through
learning stuff all pay rather substantially more than 10 year olds who need
help with multiplication.

~~~
makmanalp
Tutoring is great. The "credentials" you need to get a job easily are
basically the fact that you've graduated from or are studying in a college,
but you can do without this too. Places to look for a job are a) specific
topics students commonly get stuck on (polynomials, the bane of middle
schoolers! calculus!) b) things that need lots of studying like university
entry exams in some countries, SATs, APs etc.

The thing about a) is that often the kids aren't stupid but they've just
gotten a bad explanation. I find that a one on one with a no-nonsense
explanation and enough examples clears everything up and suddenly you're a
hero. The thin about b) is that you might need to know things specific to the
type of thing you're helping with (eg, SATs) but you're more likely to get
repeat jobs from the same customer.

The marketing scheme here is mostly word of mouth. You can put up signs and
that'll get you some business but once you successfully help your first couple
of students the word spreads like wildfire between stressed parents and you
suddenly have a reputation. Your reputation is very important so don't scam
your clients, work on giving a good impression and maybe even give occasional
freebies to regulars.

------
failquicker
I don't know if it will be possible to do where you are, but I mowed lawns for
years on the side. Even after I had a "successful" startup. I enjoyed having
something completely non-technical to do and it actually let my mind reboot.
And before anyone scoffs, the pay is actually pretty decent relative to the
time invested. Don't believe me? Call up a landscaping service and get a quote
for your yard. There is some initial costs for equipment, but it's definitely
something that is scalable. You can get a used lawnmower for less than $50. It
doesn't have to be great, little push mowers are work horses and damn near
indestructible. Especially anything with a Briggs and Straton Motor. But like
I said, this will only be relevant if you live in a part of the country you
can mow lawns in.

And on your comment about working in a cafe. I have often thought about how
great it would be if someone started a "Startup Cafe" with a rag tag group
employees that were all working on their own projects. Somewhere you could
pick up a few hours in your odd spare time and still be in a stimulating
environment. Maybe have a laptop setup next to the server stand for a few
snippets in your downtime. Someone start working on that! I'll buy my coffee
there.

~~~
RobGR
I had an idea for a "carbon-free lawn service". The idea was to get together
about 10 people with the push reel-type mowers, lawn and hedge sheers, and
develope a route that could be done by bike. One of the group's garage would
be the central meeting place and tool storage spot.

I would seek out about a dozen clients who cared about carbon and hopefully
had small lawns, rich aging hippie types. I would charge about twice what
normal lawn service costs; the whole group would arrive and cut lawn and do
any other work en masse, otherwise I think it would take too long.

The overall goal was to have enough work to have 1 full day's hard work each
week, for which each person would earn about $200. I wanted to design the
business explicitly to provide a way to pay the cheapest rent in my area (half
the cheapest two bedroom apartment) and a little left over for food and etc.

I wish someone would try this. However, the person who actually starts it for
the first time will probably find themselves working full time for quite a
while, and it won't be a part time backup job for them.

A side note on lawn mowers -- they are almost all not work horses or
indistructable, particularly the $50 ones you will get used. They are garbage.
Briggs and Stratton has a good reputation, but I am not sure they are
currently living up to it. A good rule of thumb is to get the best ratio of
engine displacement to cutting swath you can get. If you get the used ones,
get three and expect to be constantly repairing them, which will be fun for a
while and then get old.

~~~
failquicker
You make a couple good points/ideas.

I like the carbon free lawn service idea. My current mower is actually an
American lawn reel mower. Coincidentally, I bought it on craigslist for $35.
It's from 72, and still cuts like a champ as long as your willing to maintain
it. The "carbon free" service would work great in my area where there is a
high density of people in town homes with small front lawns.

Maybe YMMV on the small lawn mowers. But I have had extremely good luck with
them. I think that most of the problem people have with mowers is failing to
maintain them properly. In my experience, if you can buy a used mower that
will start quickly without much hassle it can generally be kept in decent
working order for a long time. But purchasing one of these used mowers was why
I said the idea scales. It's pretty easy to get enough work out of a used
mower to buy a better quality mower.

Thanks for sharing your insight. I hope someone jumps on the reel mower
service.

------
barake
During college I worked in a plastic fabrication facility - it was like a wood
shop with saws and routers, no giant moldingg achines. Learned an interesting
trade that I could easily fall b ack on if developing gets old. Plus going to
work was like going to the gym except they paid me.

My suggestion would to find a part time job that has you active physically and
mentally. Tradesmen / craftsmen are always looking for some reliable help even
if you need to be trained. Go learn cheese making or how to run a printing
press.

------
jraines
Working at a ski resort in Utah for two years was one of the best decisions of
my life. Great town, great people, fun outdoor activities year round,
nightlife, and plenty of time to code. Just be ready to barely scrape by -
makes it easier that half the town is in the same boat and perfectly fine with
it.

------
olliesaunders
Sorry if this doesn't sound very useful, but my suggestion is to take the time
to think deeply about why it depresses you. Have you been unsuccessful in your
career? Or significantly less successful than you would like to be?

It resonated with me when you said "I guess ultimately I enjoy thinking about
concepts more than the actual programming" because I think I'm that way too.
But that's lead me to think a lot about programming concepts and into language
design.

~~~
Tichy
Not achieving what I set out to achieve is certainly a part of it. My dream is
to make money with my own products/startup.

Not giving up yet, but at the moment I need money...

Your comment reminds me that there should always be ways to make the
programming job more interesting. If it is boring, I should think about
creating abstractions/frameworks/IDEs and what not to make it less boring.

So your comment cheered me up at least a little bit :-)

~~~
olliesaunders
> So your comment cheered me up at least a little bit :-)

I should probably taper my words with some warning then.

I'm the kind of programmer that has always thought about methodology, design,
and best practice. And after thinking about that for years, and talking with
other programmers like me (only smarter) and learning from them too, I can
tell you not only is it really really hard but the pursuit of the nicest
possible programming experience (clarity, simplicity, lack of repetition) can
make you very unproductive.

The guy who spends all day writing frameworks, testing tools, and language
abstractions is rarely the guy getting the most done. Unless he's a super-
genius.

Only recently I was trying to apply TDD to a really extreme level. I didn't
work. I ended up throwing loads of useless tests and suddenly was much more
productive. But I probably lost weeks because of that.

But there is some good news: My hardcore desire to make everything wonderful
barely exhibits when I program in Haskell. I think this is because the lack of
side-effects, strong type-checking, and high-order functions give you such a
good baseline and I don't feel like I need to write lots of abstractions and
complicated things just to feel like I've got a handle on the situation. But
then I'm unproductive because of inexperience with Haskell and FP in general.
But that's a temporary thing.

------
braindead_in
If you have a good typing speed then try out audio transcription.
<http://callgraph.biz/freelance-transcription>

~~~
jbrennan
I can only imagine that being orders of magnitude more tedious than typing
code.

~~~
braindead_in
Yes. But then you only require good English comprehension. The rest is pretty
easy. And it gets easier if you become a reviewer/proof-reader.

------
theycallmemorty
If you enjoy sports and have a confident personality, I'd recommend getting
into officiating your sport of choice.

I've been reffing hockey since the 9th grade and its a great way to get
exercise, enjoy the game, build communication skills and make a decent amount
of money (at least $20/hour, plus mileage).

~~~
shiny
You also get angry parents thinking you have it out for their kid. Reffing was
one of the most exhaustive jobs I've ever done (kids basketball). Will not do
it again.

And I guess it depends on the situation, because I only got $10/hr.

------
wolfv
You sound like an "idea person" like myself. Realize that the supply of ideas
far exceeds the skills needed to implement those ideas. Spend a few years
learning to implement solutions at employer expense (a programming job is
good). When you have sufficient skills and experience, you can start your own
business. A programming job is not so depressing if you think of it as a means
to acquire skills needed to fulfill your dream. Maybe you are depressed
because it takes so long to learn those skills. If you already have the
skills, quit your job and start working on your own ideas.

------
percept
I don't have an answer but I know the feeling and hope you find a solution (I
have to go back tomorrow).

You might consider looking for something you can do online that doesn't
require programming, such as e-commerce. Do you have something you can produce
or resell that will let you apply your technical knowledge in a non-technical
way? Crafts, or writing, or buying and selling used stuff?

------
RobGR
Firstly, I would get and idea of what your minimum living expenses really are.
You say you'd love to work a few days a week in a cafe or book shop, but worry
that it would not pay well enough -- you should figure out how much you need
so you know. You may need to adjust your lifestyle - it is far easier to not
spend a dollar than it is to get a dollar.

You may find it hard to get a part-time job to start off with. It may be
easier to work a full time job for a few months, and then ask to cut back. If
you save money in the mean time, you can quit if they refuse and seek out a
better position.

There are a lot of posts here about the best kinds of part-time jobs. In
reality, you are probably not going to be able to pick out the ultimate pay-
the-rent-while-I-code-my-startup job; you are going to end up with one of the
first few you actually find, and finding that job itself may be a full time
effort for a while.

In that light, I'd like to suggest that the actual job and environment doesn't
matter so much as you'd think, and that the fact that it is DIFFERENT is what
matters.

Ideas for good products come from experience, not from cloistered ivory tower
environments. You might come with a great product after working with several
different inventory or point-of-sale systems, or observing how an independent
roofing contractor maintains all his contacts on his phone, or whatever.

All the great American writers first learned by writing about real life things
- Steinbeck filed many short newspaper stories on dust bowl refugees before he
wrote the Grapes of Wrath, Clemens did the same and wrote of real experience
in "Roughing It" before his masterpieces.

Here's my advice: 1) know your expences and cut them where appropriate; 2) get
a job, and quit it within the first 2 weeks if it obviously sucks, and then
get another one; 3) while working, agressively attend meetups and similar
events so you don't become socially isolated; 4) after 3 months, ask your boss
if you can cut back to part time if you need to do that - if he says no, work
another 3 months and ask again; 5) if he still says no, quit, re-evaluate
working a corporate development job, and start over again at step 1 if that's
what you need to do.

------
matwood
Best non-programming job I ever had was a waiter in a fine dining restaurant.
I made great cash and met lots of interesting people. I also got eat very well
and learned a lot about food and wine, something I still very much enjoy
today. Also, keep in mind that fine dining is nothing like Outback or
Applebees.

I happened to be in college at the time, but many of my co-workers were people
who waited tables on the side of their regular jobs. IIRC, one guy was a
minister, another owned a catering business, and another was a teacher.

Another big plus if you're not married is that you meet tons of girls :)

~~~
whogivesashirt
I was going to create a new answer, but the "meet tons of girls" thing made me
think this would be a good place to reply. :)

I haven't been an employee myself, but I took a few cruises in 2007, and got
to know some of the staff members. The pay is pretty basic, and the food
apparently sucks, but there was no denying how much fun (and how much sex)
they all seemed to be having, and seeing passports so full of stamps they had
to order new pages every few months was pretty impressive as well. They hired
computer-literate types for tech positions (the ships all have sat Internet)
and newsletter-publication jobs - there are probably others for which I didn't
speak to the employee.

If you were up for an adventure-type job, this might be something to explore.

------
jhuckestein
A point nobody made so far: If you're from a foreign country you have very
little chances in getting a visa on freelance/part-time work.

I'm in exactly the same position that you are, except I also need a US Visa. I
feel sad reading all those suggestions that I can not do because they won't
give me a Visa :(

------
pedrokost
How about working in a technology summer camp? The pay is much better than in
normal summer camps and you do what you like to do - programming. Well,
teaching it.

~~~
Tichy
Interesting idea - I haven't thought about summer camps for quite a while.
There was a brief time in the 80ies when they actually had programming courses
at holiday summer camps (not anymore, I think?).

I suppose you are talking about summer camps by universities about some
technical subject? Sounds good, but wouldn't they mostly hire students?

~~~
pedrokost
No, I was thinking about real summer camps focusing on teaching programming
(game programming, web programming...). I came across a few when I was looking
for summer camps in the US. I can't remember their names. Try googling it. And
I don't think it only for students. I had the illusion (but I haven't really
checked) that they want true professionals not students. Good luck

------
ruchi
If you're a dog person perhaps you could walk dogs? Exercise, canine love and
money all in one. If you know how to play a musical instrument you could try
teaching that. All the best!

------
mikeyur
Warehouse work - working for smaller trucking companies, loading/unloading
trucks and preparing shipments. Pays around $18/hr starting out.

Retail - Retail sucks if you hate what you're selling, otherwise it's not too
bad. I worked in a supermarket and hated it, but a friend worked for a car
parts store and absolutely loved it.

Delivery Driver - Friend who worked at car parts store switched to a driver
after awhile and liked that even more. Load up the car and head out, get
people to sign off and sometimes collect payments. I always thought I'd like
this style job, mostly because it's so independent.

Computer repair/freelance IT work - Most people would give this a big "hell
no", in high school I worked for a bunch of small companies and made $25/hr
cleaning off viruses/repairing machines/building new PCs. I'd usually go into
a place for 3-4hrs on weekends. If you don't hate it, you can make some decent
money.

If you're fairly comfortable with computer hardware and windows, you'll get by
fairly easily. For all other problems: google. The IT jobs also lead to more
side work, typically the companies I worked for didn't have websites. I worked
out deals with friends who were designers and asked for a finders fee for
referrals I sent. (Knowing what I do now, I would've taken on the work myself
at a higher rate for web development and just outsource most of it)

------
SingAlong
Anyone on how creating screencasts for new languages/tools would pay?

I'm looking at creating 1hr screencasts.

------
swedegeek
Don't discount what you can learn from working for "the man" as a programmer.
Pay attention to what's happening on the business side of things. Ask
questions, show interest that you want to know more. If you ultimately want to
have your own business, there's way more than just programming a cool idea to
make that happen. You have to understand what it means to run a company and
the types of decisions that go along with that. If you can't get that from
your current job, use your programming skills to get in somewhere else that
offers you that opportunity.

I'm on my third full-time job working for "the man" in 10 years and have
learned a ton about what is involved beyond the code. I still very much have
aspirations to put all that knowledge and experience to use for my own
endeavors.

Best of luck!

------
pontifier
I recently hit a point where my patent attorney needs more money than I have.
I'm not willing to part with any share of my startup, especially over just a
few thousand dollars so last night I started looking for part time jobs. It
seems like 80% of the jobs available in the area are commissioned sales that
seem like too much mindshare and risk, 10% were skilled jobs that I don't have
experience with, and the rest were programming. I just decided that it doesn't
matter what I'm doing as long as I can keep going on my startup....

I applied for some fast food jobs.

------
scottdrake
Do you have any hobbies? Are there any stores in your area that cater to your
hobby? I'm trying to get back into RC-car racing and if I needed a 20-hour/wk
job I might look at one of my local hobby shops.

Agree with those who said lawn care. It's hard to build a long-term business
because it is competitive but if you're just trying to make $1-2K/month, you
can do it. Being a helper/laborer for a tradesperson also sounds like it might
fit your desire to not sit in front of a computer all of the time. Good luck!

------
onceuponkauai
I would suggest that you try serving at any sort of restaurant, preferably a
nicer one, although you might have to hone your skills at an olive garden or
something like that.

Pros:

1.) Work with attractive women/men 2.) Cash in your pocket 3.) Forced
exercise/weight loss 4.) Hours can compliment an office job's

Cons:

1.) Dealing with people and their food 2.) Can be stressful

------
mattm
Why not find contract work? As a contractor, your hourly pay should be higher
than that as an employee. Plus, taxes are not withheld so you

You could find a 3 month contract and then take three months off.

Some other possible jobs with a lot of downtime for doing your own thing might
be security guard or small hotel desk clerk.

------
yason
This is not an answer per se, given that I haven't done it myself, but I would
love to drive a taxi one day.

------
clark-kent
As a developer I believe you have general computer skills. Try taking up a
Tech support or sys admin gig. You wont be programming everyday but your
developer skills will be very handy. This has worked for me, I did this till
my side project became a start-up.

------
rjurney
There are programming jobs with a lot of autonomy and control over the product
you build. Maybe you should go for one of those, or become a product manager?

~~~
exit
> _There are programming jobs with a lot of autonomy and control over the
> product you build._

can you name a few?

~~~
plinkplonk
I know people at Google who have a significant amount of autonomy (they work
(or worked last time I checked) in the guts of the search engine and Android
and on Google Wave).

Also a couple of guys at Yahoo working on Hadoop. Lots of startup founders (of
course) who completely decide what to do.

Even a couple of teams at Intuit (which has to be the most manager heavy
company in the whole world).

And people paid to work on Open Source projects have significant amounts of
autonomy. Now that I think of it almost every developer I know who is _not_
working on outsourced enterprise software seems to have significant (but not
absolute) autonomy.

~~~
exit
> _Now that I think of it almost every developer I know who is not working on
> outsourced enterprise software seems to have significant (but not absolute)
> autonomy._

really? do you think you know a representative sample of developers?

~~~
plinkplonk
"do you think you know a representative sample of developers?"

I never claimed to. But hey those are the people I know, "representative
sample" or not! You asked for examples of programmers with autonomy so I gave
a few. As I was writing that, I discovered that except those working on
outsourced enterprise sw, most developers _I_ know do have significant
autonomy.

Sorry if that didn't answer your question sufficiently. A "representative
sample" developer in Bangalore (where I live these days) has a job screwing
around with mountains of crap outsourced code no one in the West wants to
touch with layer after layer of management wielding the whip and micromanaging
him. No autonomy there!

