
BAE sold cyber-surveillance tools to Arab states - CPAhem
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-40276568
======
dublinclontarf
Not just BAE.

Facebook only a few months ago began helping Pakistan "fight blasphemy",
sending a team to the country.

[http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-
asia-39300270](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-39300270)

Only for a man to be sentenced to death for committing blasphemy on Facebook a
little while later.

[http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-40246754](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-40246754)

Facebook say they are not responsible for this but it's obvious they have
blood on their hands.

~~~
smokeyj
If this is real then wow.. do Facebook employees know this is happening? Or
are they just okay working for a company like that?

If you work for Zuck I'd love to hear your take on this.

~~~
erikb
Btw. are you a US citizen? Do you feel personally responsible for what your
fellow citizens did there? Have you already packed your stuff and moved to
Brazil?

I'm totally aware that asking these questions there is a chance >0 that you
are actually not American and/or already living in another country. Let's just
agree that you can still follow the intended purpose: People in a huge group
don't really feel responsible for what other people on the other end of the
world do unethically for the same group.

~~~
geodel
I agree. I wonder if people who work or looking to work for companies which
make ad/surveillance software and get huge salaries are always different than
people who rail against these companies. Or is it just different mode of same
people?

~~~
pm90
For a lot of people the salaries are too good to pass on. And its not hard to
rationalize what you are doing. This is kinda why a broader education seems
very important to me, so that smart people understand exactly what they are
contributing to and can take a reasoned stand.

In other cases, it may be just a small part of an otherwise great
organization. e.g. Palantir is used by CIA to track bad actors, but it can
also be misused by police depts (hypothetically?). So the developers of the
software think they are helping protect their citizens but it may be misused.

------
pcunite
All of you programmers working on "cool" technology understand that this is
going to be turned against your own children? Doesn't matter, does it? We all
had a good time!

Its really amazing to watch iron chains form from digital crystals. Did we
learn nothing about history while our young people studied algorithms? Did
taking "Computer Science" classes seclude us from the reality of how all of
this would be used?

We should feel some shame and remorse. If you're in this industry, start
telling us here everyday what you've done so that some can have a chance to
deal with the coming digital dictatorship. It will be worldwide, it will be
unjust, and people will not be able to run away from it because it will cross
borders.

They lied to you when they told you they "needed" it for safety reasons, or
for the children, or other soundless reasons to deceive you into building
invisible prisons.

~~~
M_Grey
>Did we learn nothing about history while our young people studied algorithms?
Did taking "Computer Science" classes seclude us from the reality of how all
of this would be used?

Obviously the answer to your questions is, "Enough people don't learn those
lessons, don't believe it will apply to them, or simply don't care."

The time for analysis and hand-wringing was years ago, now it's just a pump-
and-dump scheme at every level. The fools just think they have a place to run
to, and that's the big flaw in the plan.

------
averagewall
In other news: West funds oppressive Arab states. Really, if we didn't want
them spying on people, we shouldn't be giving them all that oil money. Funding
terrorists is illegal, why is funding oppressive governments OK and then it's
suddenly not OK when they spend that money to oppress people?

~~~
czechdeveloper
Let's not fool ourselves. We need that oil to keep business as usual going.
Gigatons of liquid energy that fuels most of our civilization.

~~~
redahs
Importing goods from non-democratic countries is not an all-or-nothing
proposition. The externality created by giving non-democratic countries cash
issued by democracies can be partially corrected by assessing a unilateral
scaling tariff on imports, in proportion to the level of human rights abuses
created by the country of origin.

~~~
bogomipz
>"Importing goods from non-democratic countries is not an all-or-nothing
proposition. The externality created by giving non-democratic countries cash
issued by democracies can be partially corrected by assessing a unilateral
scaling tariff on imports, in proportion to the level of human rights abuses
created by the country of origin."

So lets apply that to Chinese imports. Let say that the US places one of the
highest tariffs on Chinese imports since its one of the least democratic
countries[1]. So China's economy grinds to a halt. But China is one of the
largest purchasers of U.S debt so now both China and the U.S economies
completely tank[2]. And then that has knock on effect on Africa where China is
buying up minerals and investing in infrastructure projects. This would
effectively tank the economies of North America, Asia and Africa. Does this
still strike you as a viable idea?

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index)

[2] [https://www.thebalance.com/u-s-debt-to-china-how-much-
does-i...](https://www.thebalance.com/u-s-debt-to-china-how-much-does-it-
own-3306355)

~~~
michaelt

      Does this still strike you as a viable idea?
    

Sure. Just announce the tariff will be phased in at 0.5% per year over 40
years.

~~~
bogomipz
China had exports of 2.3 trillion dollars in 2016. 16.9% of which was to the
US[1].

.5% of trillion is 5 billion. Let's just round down China's exports down to 2
trillion.

That means the US would be levying 10 billion dollars in tariffs on China
during the first year alone and this would continue to increase for the next 4
decades?

How do you imagine China would react to that? Do you imagine a trade war would
be good for the world economy?

This is the kind of nonsense that Trump was recently spewing during the US
election season.

You know who's going to actually pay that tariff? The U.S.? They will pay for
it in higher prices on goods and perhaps more importantly they will also pay
for it in China financing 100s of billions dollars less of U.S debt in the
coming decades. That might be the kick in the pants the US needs to get its
deficit in order but before wreaking lots of havoc.

You realize that China is the United States second largest creditor right?
Until very recently they were the United States largest creditor[2]. Yes China
finances the United States by buying up U.S Treasuries.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_China](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_China)

[2] [https://www.statista.com/statistics/256591/share-of-
chinas-e...](https://www.statista.com/statistics/256591/share-of-chinas-
exports-in-gross-domestic-product/)

------
equalunique
2014 while working in US federal info sec, one of my coworkers had a boyfriend
employed by BAE working on surveillance software. I was surprised to learn
that BAE produced such software. She explained to me that while certain laws
prohibited US citizens from spying on each other, foriegn countries are exempt
from those laws, so it is apparently common for surveillance software
developed in the US to be deployed targeting the US by US allies who work with
the US government.

~~~
paulmd
Yup, while it's technically illegal for the NSA/etc to deliberately intercept
American communication, it's an open secret that they work in cooperation with
other nations who spy on us and give the data back to the US via programs like
ECHELON.

They also bend the rules as much as legally permissable. They can't
deliberately intercept domestic-only traffic, but anything that goes overseas
is fair game for a bulk tap, and you don't really have control of how your
packets are routed.

------
3pt14159
Rather than just whine about lax security practices, here is an nginx config
file that will get you a pretty high score on scanners like Mozilla's
Observatory.

[https://gist.github.com/zachaysan/89d40b3214160ce9d59a2b9136...](https://gist.github.com/zachaysan/89d40b3214160ce9d59a2b913645a012)

If you work on things that involve sexuality, health, or finance and you don't
enable these types of protections you're risking lives or financial ruin.

Also if you see a shortcoming please let me know, I created this in a bit of a
rush and I'm always happy to learn more.

~~~
pc86
Seems odd that something designed to protect lives or prevent financial ruin
you'd do "in a bit of a rush."

~~~
3pt14159
My schedule is packed and it's better to share something than nothing, no?

The point is to show how little is needed to protect against the type of
encryption thwarting tools these guys likely employ, and to give people a
starting point from which they can learn more from.

------
vyper91
"While the sales are legal, human rights campaigners and cyber-security
experts have expressed serious concerns these powerful tools could be used to
spy on millions of people and thwart any signs of dissent."

Whilst true, why does this point seem to matter for other countries
governments than our own?

~~~
LordKano
By no means am I excusing the excesses of my government or its western allies,
though I would like to point out that we won't execute someone for blasphemy
like some of those other nations.

I say we put out the big fire first.

------
idlemind
This is more of the same inglorious British Government tradition of being
willing to sell anything to anyone, provided they've got the cash.

~~~
MaaQ
As far as I am informed the British Government adviced agains th sale, however
the danish government approved it.

------
ljf
If you have time, watch Bitter Lake by Adam Curtis:
[http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02gyz6b](http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02gyz6b)
(also available on youtube if you are outside the UK - though seems mildly
edited)

Shows the tangled complicity in each others affairs that exists between UK, US
and the Arab countries, and some of the background behind them and the
leverage that we have over each over.

------
mrweasel
The Danish media is less gentle with their wording. The customers aren't
talked about as "repressive governments" but is straight up called
dictatorships.

~~~
xtreme
Is dictatorship a necessary condition for oppressive governments?
Democratically elected governments can be oppressive as well.

------
redahs
Western democracies should impose a domestic procurement ban on companies
which sell to foreign governments without civilian control over their
militaries. This would not require new export controls or restrictions on
international trade, only voluntary divestment when awarding domestic
procurement contracts on the public's behalf. Problem solved.

~~~
pmorici
They would just do some wizardry to avoid the consequences like making a
parent company with two subsidiaries that licensees the IP to the individual
operating companies one for the domestic market and one or the undesirables.

~~~
redahs
Yes, but requiring socially undesirable accounts to be compartmentalized and
spun-off may allow democracies to start removing the currently blatant
conflicts of interest surrounding procurement and lobbying.

A longer term solution would most likely require imposing a scaling import
tariff on non-democratic countries in proportion to their level of human
rights abuses. This would establish a rule where their ability to acquire
democratic foreign currencies redeemable for weapon systems automatically
decreases on the margin if they they pursue authoritarian policies, and
automatically increases on the margin if they pursue reforms.

------
RichardHeart
It sucks when nationstates have real security they work that the citizens want
done, but are also relatively evil. You have to guess whether they'll be doing
more evil or more real useful law enforcement. We only hear about the evil.

~~~
icebraining
You don't _have_ to guess. You could just refuse to collaborate with any of it
until the level of evil is reduced.

------
retox
"within the regulatory framework" aka against the people

------
sschueller
If your big enough and have enough money you can do anything. Legal or not.

~~~
pcunite
_moral_ or not, legal is a formality.

