
Fake memory implanted in mice with a beam of light - sew
http://arstechnica.com/science/2013/07/fake-memory-implanted-in-mice-with-a-beam-of-light/
======
functional
The research may show that the mice are responding to stimuli, but how can
anyone honestly claim to know what the experience is like, or whether the
"memories" are truly recalled as negative and induce actual "fear".

I mean, it's not like mice can verbalize their experience. They don't use
words to tell us how they "feel" about these memories on the inside.

And in the article, it states that no new memories were actually created. Only
the nature of existing memories were augmented to be negative.

From the article:

    
    
      ...whether they could create a new, negative association 
      by flipping the switch on an old, neutral memory while 
      giving the mouse a negative experience.
    

So they took an existing memory of a location, and made the mice scared of the
location. That's a lot different from the claim in the headline.

~~~
tomrod
I volunteer to take part in an experiment for false memory implantation on
humans. Sounds like fun.

~~~
DanBC
I wish there was a website where people could sign up to volunteer for
experimentation. They could make (simplified) health data available, and tick
what kinds of things they'd like to do.

Until then, here's a website that'll let you experience a common memory error.
([http://psych.hanover.edu/JavaTest/CLE/Cognition/Cognition/fa...](http://psych.hanover.edu/JavaTest/CLE/Cognition/Cognition/falsememory_instructions.html))

There are probably more experiments you can do on yourself to induce a false
memory.

~~~
aperrien
That might be a good idea for the future, if we can insure the experiments are
done ethically, and with the subject's full understanding.

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ChikkaChiChi
Even with all the Snowden articles I've read over the past few months, nothing
has made me want to start manufacturing tin foil clothing more than this
article just did.

~~~
etrautmann
Then the title is slightly misleading. The beam of light is not sufficient for
creating the memory, just part of the process. The other thing not mentioned
in the title is that the mice are either genetically engineered to have
neurons that express light sensitive proteins, or have been injected with a
virus that makes these neurons sensitive to light.

~~~
Alex3917
> Then the title is slightly misleading.

The whole story is BS. There is zero evidence that they implanted any sort of
memory, let alone a false one. All they've shown is that when the mice
encounter situation X, they are afraid because their memories of situation X
are associated with fear. Basically it's like how if you have a nightmare
about dying in a car crash then you may be afraid of driving the next day, but
that doesn't mean that you have a memory of actually dying in a car crash.

~~~
etrautmann
It's certainly not an uninteresting or invalid scientific result, but the
interpretations tend to get a little overblown. This is an unfortunately
common theme in neuroscience, especially recently.

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etrautmann
Quick translation: 1) Researchers found neurons that are active in one context
(say, mice are in a blue cage). 2) They use a genetic tool to target these
neurons and make them sensitive to light 3) The researchers then deliver
_mild_ foot shocks to the mice, while activating these neurons 4) Mice are put
back into the original context (blue cage), and exhibit behaviors associated
with expecting foot shocks.

Makes sense, nothing too surprising but getting something like this to work is
impressive.

*edit for clarity

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bcn
Here is the abstract (all I could find) of this paper:

    
    
      Memories can be unreliable. We created a false memory in mice by optogenetically manipulating memory engram–bearing cells in the hippocampus. Dentate gyrus (DG) or CA1 neurons activated by exposure to a particular context were labeled with channelrhodopsin-2. These neurons were later optically reactivated during fear conditioning in a different context. The DG experimental group showed increased freezing in the original context, in which a foot shock was never delivered. The recall of this false memory was context-specific, activated similar downstream regions engaged during natural fear memory recall, and was also capable of driving an active fear response. Our data demonstrate that it is possible to generate an internally represented and behaviorally expressed fear memory via artificial means.
    

\- from
[https://www.sciencemag.org/content/341/6144/387](https://www.sciencemag.org/content/341/6144/387)

The Ars article also has a good link to a backgrounder on optogenetics:
[http://f1000.com/prime/reports/b/3/11/](http://f1000.com/prime/reports/b/3/11/)

~~~
VladRussian2
>increased freezing in the original context, in which a foot shock was never
delivered

seems like an effective way to train things like correct reaction for the
"Attention" command in soldiers, schoolchildren, employees during all-
hands,...

On the other side, some decades later we will be appalled by the modern
practice of electrical shocking of mice the same ways some of us are already
appalled by medieval torture.

~~~
ars
Medieval torture is a bad example because it was done with the intent of
causing pain. This is not.

A better example might be vivisection - it used to be done without any
analgesia at all, for the simple reason that they had none. But they learned a
LOT from it. Today the idea is repugnant, but that's because we have
analgesics we can use.

This is the same way - it's the best tool we have. Once we get a better tool
we'll use it, but don't criticize the past for not using a tool that didn't
exist.

Even worse would be to say not to do the experiment at all.

~~~
VladRussian2
>Medieval torture is a bad example because it was done with the intent of
causing pain. This is not.

Jews in concentration camps were experimented on with intent of scientific
experiment. By your standard it is just ok.

Intent doesn't matter to the subject of torture, be it an interrogated witch,
911 terrorist, Jew in concentration camp being experimented on or a dog being
vivisected.

> Today the idea is repugnant, but that's because we have analgesics we can
> use.

No. The idea became repugnant to some [the most advanced people of the time]
and through their effort the analgesics started to be used. In particular,
ether was first used for surgery in 1846, while vivisection was still legal
for more than half a century after that.

Or do you mean UCSF doesn't have analgesics available:

[http://www.sfgate.com/education/article/UCSF-lapses-mean-
res...](http://www.sfgate.com/education/article/UCSF-lapses-mean-research-
animals-suffer-4065881.php)

> Once we get a better tool we'll use it, but don't criticize the past for not
> using a tool that didn't exist.

That a convenient lie - alcohol, 'shrooms, opium, various barks, cola nut,
etc... have been known for like thousands years.

>Even worse would be to say not to do the experiment at all.

False scare, like security vs. liberty. The humanity would probably be much
better off if it excluded all experiments on live animals. Our primitive,
medieval, violent mentality is that keeps us from developing into advanced
civilization. Live and let live.

~~~
aperrien
This philosophical argument can be answered very simply. Which do you value
more, animals or humans?

~~~
PavlovsCat
If you actually value either, you also have to value the other?

But I can also answer that with a question if you want: which do you value
more, slow but steady progress, and planting for generations ahead and reaping
from what generations before sowed, or instant gratification and profit, and
the constant low-intensity war that entails? (not that we lack a constancy of
military action in the world, but hey)

~~~
ars
> If you actually value either, you also have to value the other?

If by value you mean assign a positive number then No. If by value you mean
calculate then Yes. (Sorry for phrasing it that way, but I wasn't sure which
you meant.)

> which do you value more, slow but steady progress, and planting for
> generations ahead and reaping from what generations before sowed, or instant
> gratification and profit, and the constant low-intensity war that entails?

Now I'm confused. In another post you appear to be against this experiment
(i.e. the slow and steady progress), but the way you write this makes it look
like the slow and steady progress is the better way - but that's the
experiment.

So which is it?

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nsxwolf
If we gift them with a past, we create a cushion or a pillow for their
emotions, and consequently, we can control them better.

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return0
This is one of the first studies on cellular memory traces but not the first.
Similarly, in 2011 Garner et. al. had created a hybrid memory trace
chemically:
[http://www.sciencemag.org/content/335/6075/1513](http://www.sciencemag.org/content/335/6075/1513)

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pyrocat
This is more akin to the "programming" scene from A Clockwork Orange than it
is of Blade Runner or Total Recall.

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hawkharris
This is an interesting story, but let's be careful not to dwell on the
potentially sinister uses of optogenetics.

Other research groups at MIT — i.e. within the McGovern Institute for Brain
Research — are using the same techniques to better understand the biological
basis for psychiatric disorders. For example, they recently used light
stimulation to rid rats of compulsive behaviors.

I'm very excited about the potential for this technology to help people
suffering with OCD, general anxiety, depression and bipolar disorder.

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forgotAgain
Well it does tend to explain all of the alien abduction stories starting with
a bright light.

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kamakazizuru
like any science article nowadays - - this is probably what the title should
read "Fake sensation of fear implanted in GENETICALLY modified mice by
repeated and prolonged exposure to a beam of light"

~~~
return0
No it's not a sensation, it's an association that happens as rapidly as it
would happen under real circumstances. And the mice were not genetically
modified, the rhodopsin was delivered through a virus.

This is important because it helps us understand the way memories are encoded,
however it is for very primitive and basic kinds of memory.

~~~
kamakazizuru
im not debating its importance - as for the genetically modified part -i will
give you that they werent modified at embryo stage as is typically the case in
GM Species. The virus did not deliver rhodopsin - but additional genes that
allowed the cells of the rats to encode the optogenetic proteins. That is by
all means a genetic modification. It wasnt just a drug injection or something!

~~~
return0
Sorry, i hadn't read the actual paper until now. Actually they did use
transgenic GM mice, which allow the expression of rhodopsin in activated
cells. While the title of the article is not very revealing, it's pretty close
to what they did, although by no means did they "use lasers to implant a
memory", they used a lot of other stuff too.

~~~
kamakazizuru
yes that was precisely my point. No sense commenting on an article if you
havent read what it talks about.

~~~
return0
yeah, but you did

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cupcake-unicorn
But the mice had this "on-switch" installed, right? You can't just flash the
light at any mouse to scare them...That amnesia light from Men in Black
hopefully is not in the making...

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Jach
What one giveth, one can taketh away: [http://www.kurzweilai.net/how-to-erase-
memory](http://www.kurzweilai.net/how-to-erase-memory)

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scotty79
Probably relevant:
[http://www.ted.com/talks/ed_boyden.html](http://www.ted.com/talks/ed_boyden.html)

~~~
etrautmann
Yep, this is the guy that came up with the method for making neurons sensitive
to light. The technique can be applied in many ways, this is one of them.

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lem72
Does this mean that it might be possible to implant knowledge into our heads
like in the Matrix? Could I learn Jiu Jitsu with a beam of light?

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EScott11
How do they demonstrate this is not mere classical conditioning? Perhaps the
mice are simple afraid of _all_ chambers after the shock.

~~~
drakeandrews
Mice given the choice of Place A or another chamber after the treatment chose
the other chamber.

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jpalioto
And the tinfoil heavy portfolio pays off for the paranoid investor!!

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likeclockwork
Was it a pink beam of light?

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madaxe
Ah, but the important question is: was the beam pink?

