
Technology’s Man Problem - metermaid
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/06/technology/technologys-man-problem.html?pagewanted=all
======
dredmorbius
Ashe Dryden, along with other members of the Ada Initiative, launched a smear
campaign against a man who was cleared of all charges in a domestic dispute.

One AI member, Leigh Honeywell, tweeted that she "want[s] anyone who googles
[name] in the future to know he was arrested for DV" (she now tweets under
"ennui as a service"). Several members of Ada, including Ashe, have signed a
statement against him.

The Ada Initiative continues to host a page devoted to the charges which have
been fully dropped against the man in question.

While I'm all for, and have encouraged, women in tech, and have worked with
some very talented women (and men), a line is crossed when people move from
advocacy to specific smear campaigns against specific individuals. There are
courts and a justice system for a purpose, and while they may be imperfect,
taking the law and justice into your own hands, publicly, in what is almost
always a very, very messy situation, is crossing a line I cannot countenance.

I really can't stand by Ada, Ashe, or others associated with it.

~~~
lovemenot
The situation you describe is indeed awful, if true. Yet I cannot see how it
is related to the article posted. Unless I am mistaken, that was about
different people doing other problematic things. Perhaps we are supposed to
view it as just tit-for-tat (no pun intended) in an ongoing battle of the
sexes? If so, I really cannot agree with the context of your comment.

~~~
dredmorbius
I'm not directly involved, but Dryden, Ada, and the man in question have all
posted on it, and the accounts are largely in agreement.

As you noted: Dryden is quoted in this article. I don't consider her to have
any moral authority based on her actions.

------
doctorpangloss
The article is great and pretty accurate.

>Women often take on the role of product manager, or P.M., which entails the
so-called soft skills of managing people and bridging the business and
engineering divide. Yet even though this is an essential job, it’s the purely
technical people — not the businesspeople — who get the respect in the tech
industry.

Well, I think PMs are universally reviled, male or female :)

~~~
nerfhammer
It's a sweeping, evidence-free generalization nonetheless – business people in
tech get no respect? Really now? If you list the most well-known names I would
bet ~0% of them are purely technical

~~~
msandford
Business people in tech get no respect from the purely technical folks.
"Every" programmer hates their PM.

Yes it's a generalization and thus false by definition. But there's a lot of
truth to it. Project Managers are a nicer way of saying "boss" or "manager" in
a lot of ways even if they don't hire & fire and thus yes, there are tons of
people who don't like their boss.

Sure PMs are supposed to be more west-coast management style and delegate and
herd cats but there's always shitty work that SOMEONE has to do and thus they
end up having to do the east-cost top-down style stuff from time to time. And
that engenders negative feelings no matter the sex of the person.

Business people get no respect because when asked about business logic they'll
reply one way "definitively" and then 3 months later -- when it's critical for
them to make a deal -- they'll change their mind about a thing "that will
never change" and make extra work for a programmer. Programmers, being lazy by
nature, hate this and that's why business people "get no respect" in tech.
From the tech folks, not from management or broader society, but from the
people who do the technical stuff.

~~~
nerfhammer
You are adding qualifiers to it that were not present. It's a careless,
obviously mostly false claim. An idea so tenuous should need evidential
support, much less handwaving. I don't get the feeling the author put much
thought into it.

The article said:

"it’s the purely technical people — not the businesspeople — who get the
respect in the tech industry."

Simply put. Which is thoughtless nonsense that belongs in a poorly thought out
livejournal post and not in a serious article in the new york times.

------
aaronem
Oh, hey, Ashe Dryden! Last I ran into her, she was busily advocating an overt
hiring blacklist because some people on 4chan made fun of a blog post. I'm
surprised to find her quoted in such a relatively even-handed article on the
subject.

~~~
calibraxis
Ashe Dryden's excellent work speaks for itself. (As opposed to evidence-free
chatter on HN, which NYT says can feel like _" hostile territory for women"_.)
It's nice overhearing people in real life speak glowingly about how her voice
needs to be better heard. Can't wait to get her upcoming book and use it to
help build a healthy team.
([http://www.ashedryden.com/](http://www.ashedryden.com/))

In another thread here, Alan Kay mentions how people with great ideas tend to
be burned as heretics. As she mentioned in this article, _" I've gotten rape
and death threats just for speaking out about this stuff."_

~~~
aaronem
> evidence-free chatter

Dryden deleted the tweet not long after posting, but see
[http://archive.is/GhW8N](http://archive.is/GhW8N) for substantiation. In all
fairness, I must note that Dryden herself didn't introduce the word
"blacklist"; one of her followers did that, in the course of picking up the
ball and running with it. Another follower had this to say on the subject:

> I'm going through the saved list [of those who starred the "C-plus-Equality"
> joke Github repo] to find the Swedish and UK citizens. Already found 2. They
> can expect the police shortly. :3

It's the smiley, I think, that really sells it. And a little while later, this
in response from yet another follower:

> Wished we were protected with hatespeech laws here in the US. uggghhh
> #firstammendment #isajoke

I don't claim Dryden has produced nothing of value, but I doubt I'm alone in
finding it difficult to distinguish between the Dryden who's worth listening
to and the Dryden whose friends and correspondents respond to satire by
attempting to destroy the livelihoods of those who find it amusing.

~~~
calibraxis
Yep, the moment attackers have to provide evidence, everyone sees Ashe didn't
say anything even resembling "advocating an overt hiring blacklist".

(BTW, what her Twitter "correspondents" say is about as illuminating as what
our HN "correspondents" say.)

~~~
vezzy-fnord
I typed the word "blacklist" in Dryden's blog search bar and the evidence
magically manifested itself: [http://www.ashedryden.com/blog/weve-all-got-a-
list](http://www.ashedryden.com/blog/weve-all-got-a-list)

~~~
calibraxis
Please read your link. Ashe says, _" Below are some of the reasons many people
have told me they want something like this. Note that these do not necessarily
fall in line with my beliefs, but I am putting them all in one place because I
hear them so frequently."_

And she also mentions that, as self-defense, people who've gone through
harassment and death threats necessarily have lists of abusers. This is
uncontroversial.

Personally, speaking for myself, I also think it's reasonable to discuss
whether it's appropriate to hire those who commit _" physical violence and
sexual assault in our community spaces."_ It can get in the way of sprints.

~~~
aaronem
Private lists of toxic people are one thing. Public, crowdsourced lists of
people who should not be permitted to earn a livelihood, in the industry where
they have built their entire careers, are quite another.

The disclaimers of advocacy, on which you place so much weight, ring rather
hollow in light of the entire rest of the post, and especially the last couple
of paragraphs:

> So how does this get fixed? Truthfully, I don't know. The problem is so
> systemic in our communities. Fixing this is going to require buy-in from a
> vocal and powerful majority of people. It's going to have to mean people
> losing opportunities and their standing in our communities because of the
> things they do.

> We cannot reprimand someone for their behavior while still allowing them to
> enjoy the privileges of their position without sending the message that we
> are somehow condoning their abusive actions.

I concede that the words "We should maintain and enforce a blacklist" appear
nowhere in Dryden's post. If that is the standard of evidence you require,
before you'll entertain the suggestion that a blacklist is something Dryden
advocates, then I see no point in our even attempting to have anything
resembling a conversation.

Otherwise, consider that offenses worthy of blacklisting, as enumerated in
Dryden's first paragraph, range from battery and sexual assault -- which are
felonies, not merely "bad behavior", and should be prosecuted as such -- to...
_dismissiveness_. Perhaps you consider it reasonable for someone to equate
peremptory rudeness and felony. That I should find it necessary even to
entertain the possibility, that _anyone_ finds that equation reasonable, is
something that scares the hell out of me.

------
vezzy-fnord
_Computer science wasn’t always dominated by men. “In the beginning, the word
‘computers’ meant ‘women,’ ” says Ruth Oldenziel, a professor at Eindhoven
University of Technology in the Netherlands who studies history, gender and
technology. Six women programmed one of the most famous computers in history —
the 30-ton Eniac — for the United States Army during World War II._

This is misleading.

First of all, it confuses "computer science" with "programming". Yes,
programming certainly had high female presence back then. However, it was also
largely considered a menial job - number crunching. Computer scientists were
still majority male.

~~~
chillingeffect
And it doesn't stop there. Later the article says:

>computer engineering, the most innovative sector of the economy

Even though computer engineering is neither computer science nor programming.
It's a little linguistic sleight-of-hand the author pulls.

FWIW, according to this chart [1] I found, computer science itself, the bug
bear of the article, is not the most innovative sector. It's farther down the
list than computer engineering, electronic components, machinery,
transportation, chemicals and even consumer products.

[1]
[http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/11/innovation](http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/11/innovation)

~~~
jey

        according to an analysis of patents
    

Ergo that chart is bullshit. I stopped reading there.

------
msandford
The articles I haven't seen yet:

1\. Welding's Man Problem

[http://www.aikenstandard.com/article/20130125/AIK0101/130129...](http://www.aikenstandard.com/article/20130125/AIK0101/130129691)

2\. Nursing's Women Problem

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_in_nursing](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_in_nursing)

3\. Hooters (and others) Women Problem

[http://blogs.findlaw.com/free_enterprise/2009/04/can-men-
be-...](http://blogs.findlaw.com/free_enterprise/2009/04/can-men-be-hooters-
girls-when-can-businesses-hire-only-women.html)

I get that I live in a bubble surrounded by only tech news. But when I was in
school I knew plenty of women in nursing and it seemed as though the lack of
diversity wasn't keeping them up at night. The median nursing salary in the
bay area is definitely competitive with and possibly better than programming.

[http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/registered-
nurse/s...](http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/registered-nurse/salary)

[http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/computer-
programme...](http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/computer-
programmer/salary)

I also get that there are plenty of dudes in tech being giant assholes or
chauvinistic or sexist or misogynist or whatever other words you'd like to
call them. But why is that so much more of a problem than the obvious sexism
in other areas? What I mean is why is there a NYT article on male computer
programmers behaving badly and not one on male welders behaving badly? I'm not
suggesting that either one should get away with it, bad behavior is bad
behavior. But why is it newsworthy in tech and not in welding?

~~~
bendmorris
>Nursing's Women Problem

While there are fewer men in nursing (and I'm sure being a man in a
traditionally female-dominated industry comes with its own set of challenges)
they tend to command higher salaries and faster promotions than women [1].
Compare this to tech, where women as a minority tend to be paid less.

[1] [http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/the-exchange/male-nurses-
beco...](http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/the-exchange/male-nurses-becoming-
more-commonplace-higher-paid-221330791.html)

------
ianvanness
"Today, even as so many barriers have fallen — whether at elite universities,
where women outnumber men, or in running for the presidency, where polls show
that fewer people think gender makes a difference — computer engineering, the
most innovative sector of the economy, remains behind. "

With younger demographics showing far less bias towards gender in polls and
elsewhere, and with the tech scene bringing in so much young talent, why is it
that non-males are still not accepted as peers by the general male tech crowd?
If anything, shouldn't the tech community have accepted non-males long before
other industries given these circumstances?

~~~
pervycreeper
>elite universities, where women outnumber men, or in running for the
presidency, where polls show that fewer people think gender makes a difference

>computer engineering, the most innovative sector of the economy, remains
behind

Peculiar why people attribute the former to the natural order of things, while
simultaneously attributing the latter to bias.

~~~
johnnygoods
Considering that most elite universities started as male only and have taken a
long path to inclusion, it is unlikely the power dynamics there have gone from
biased pro male to biased pro female. So yes, the hard won primacy of women in
higher education is probably the natural order of things.

~~~
asabjorn
Or it could be a sign that the lack of male teachers in our primary education
system somehow has an effect on male student performance? Primary school
teachers used to be mostly male so the teacher gender balance has clearly
changed over time, but it seems incredibly hard to study this subject.

Personally I think it is important for our society that kids get more exposure
to male role-models and caretakers.

------
dcre
I sincerely hope the average HNer reading this more or less agrees, but does
not comment. I'd have a hard time stomaching the idea that these comments are
actually representative of the community.

------
dropit_sphere
Both men and women would benefit from learning more about nerd culture and
women:

[http://calculatedbravery.wordpress.com/2014/01/21/on-
nerds/](http://calculatedbravery.wordpress.com/2014/01/21/on-nerds/)

~~~
eli_gottlieb
That blog post is bad and you should feel bad. Seriously? Men can be low-
status while women can't, because women have bodies to show off?

Please tell me, at the very least, that _you_ didn't actually write that.

~~~
dcre
Yup. Jeez. Analyzing pictures of women to say whether they're attractive is
about as big a red flag as there can be.

------
Beasting247
> "A culprit, many people in the field say, is a sexist, alpha-male culture
> that can make women and other people who don’t fit the mold feel unwelcome,
> demeaned or even endangered."

Wait, did someone just call programmer culture an "alpha-male" culture? That's
hilarious.

When are people going to stop bitching about there not being enough women in
<insert industry of choice>? Who cares? Like another comment said - nobody
complains about there not being enough men in nursing.

I'm really sick of this whole victimization mindset that a lot of women
embrace. In any male-dominated industry, there are bound to be cases of sexual
harassment and misconduct. Nobody condones that. And frankly, there's really
not much more anybody can do to fix it.

Technology and programming are among the most meritocratic industries in
existence. All it takes is a computer and an internet connection. If you can
code well and build great things, nobody cares whether you're a woman or some
13 year old nerd with Asperger's who gets bullied at school.

Oh and if you're outraged by some dumb boob app that a couple guys coded for
fun at a Hackathon, you have your head way too far up your ass and need to
stop taking yourself so seriously.

~~~
com2kid
> And frankly, there's really not much more anybody can do to fix it.

Yes there is.

Whenever it happens we can all stand up and say together that it is not
appropriate and that it will not be tolerated.

~~~
Beasting247
I was talking on a societal scale. Obviously in any specific instance of
sexism/harassment, people can and should stand up.

------
auvrw
from the title of the article, i thought this was going to be about the fact
that there are a lot of tech jobs to distribute among a small number of people
(male and female) compared to some other industries...

... immediately realizing that the article is about a very real difficulty
(gender imbalance) for many lines of work, i immediately stopped reading,
because based on the title alone, i suspect it's more of the (unfortunately)
usual points.

for my two cents, i certainly would like to see more female programmers &/or
mathematicians out there and am completely baffled about why, especially in
academia, where it can be significantly easier to get into some math programs
as a grad student, there aren't more women trying it out. perhaps because of
articles talking about how problematic math and programming can be for women
rather than about successful female mathematicians and programmers? i mean,
there are definitely negative experiences that need to get out there, but i
hope they don't obscure the fact that there are women in math/cs areas that
have positive experiences as well.

~~~
hashbanged
You know... there's a lot of writing about that too. You're presenting a false
choice, and then suggesting a theory that doesn't really have any basis but
suggests that people writing about problems are actually part of the problem
they're trying to solve.

I know women who have great experiences in math and computer science. I don't
think any of them haven't had their experience at least partially colored by
male privilege.

~~~
auvrw
yeah, it's a difficult topic. probably shouldn't have put forward that
"theory." should've just been like this guy (
[http://www.infoq.com/presentations/culture-hacking-
singapore](http://www.infoq.com/presentations/culture-hacking-singapore) ) and
said, "we want women," in block capitals.

------
hashberry
The article is out for vengeance. "Titstare" isn't even a real app, but
satire. The article uses this joke as an example of technology's "man
problem."

Men: you cannot make sex jokes in public, especially at tech conferences. Any
sexual innuendo will be labeled misogynistic. Don't forget about the two guys
who got fired after joking about "forking" and "dongles."

Male co-workers can make crude jokes between one another and laugh about it.
But say anything sexual and if a woman hears it, you will be labeled sexist,
misogynistic, and reported to HR or shamed on Twitter.

And women wonder why they feel excluded from their male peers...

~~~
karmajunkie
There's nothing about that article that was "out for vengeance". It was a
pretty even-handed look at what is a very present issue in tech culture today.

By the way, while I realize those admonishments were tongue-in-cheek, they
were, in fact, largely correct. The problem isn't so much that we shouldn't be
telling sex jokes in a public, professional forum. It's that you seem to think
you have a right to do so free of the consequences of violating social norms.
When women and minorities speak about privilege—that's part of what they're
pointing at.

~~~
theorique
_There 's nothing about that article that was "out for vengeance". It was a
pretty even-handed look at what is a very present issue in tech culture
today._

It started off with the title - "Man Problem". That is, the _men_ are the
source of the problem.

It asserts that the problem is not a lack of women, or something that women
are doing, or that women are not stepping up and seizing what they want. No,
instead, the problem is that the 'evil' men in tech are being mean and not
letting the poor defenseless girls play with their evil male tech toys.

Well, so what? Like many fields, tech is competitive and people play hardball.
If women can't take the heat, maybe they can go into a field where _they_ are
the majority - nursing, cosmetology, fashion - and give the _men_ a hard time.

------
softatlas
I remember a co-worker inviting to his place, with others also invited. He
asked me if I had had sex with a female coworker since, I suppose, that upon
first meeting her, we got along very amiably at work.

It seemed like a confession of character moment, though it was expressed in a
joking manner. It was a kind of contextual humor.

------
applecore
Is $5 typical for beer served at a dive bar in NYC?

~~~
nerfhammer
If you order the cheap stuff. PBR can go for as little as $4, or $3 in
brooklyn

~~~
applecore
It still seems kinda expensive, especially for a dive.

------
nickthemagicman
This article is hilarious. It neglects to mention that computer science
programs(engineering in general) is 90 percent guys.

Engineering is probably the hardest major from a math and hard work
perspective.

Almost seems like women want a voice without having to do any of that pesky
work.

~~~
Mangalor
They're also majority White. Are you saying minorities also don't want to do
any "pesky work"?

~~~
nickthemagicman
The numbers speak for theselves. Movements are how things change. And youre
not going to start a movement if 99% of your age/gender/ethnicity isnt even
remotely interested in the subject much less the cause.

~~~
Mangalor
The ones that are interested are getting subtly insulted and pushed out.
That's the point of the article.

~~~
nickthemagicman
Youre saying the reason physics and engineering departments are 1% females is
because theres massive widespread discrimination across EVERY department at
every college in THE ENTIRE WORLD.

Thats the best explanation? Not that society is socially condintioning women,
not that women are biologically different and choose care giver professions.
Nope no other reasons.

You just schooled me. They are getting insulted. Thanks for solving the
problem!

