
America's misguided culture of overwork - rb2k_
http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2010/08/25/german_usa_working_life_ext2010/index.html
======
patrickgzill
My personal experience with Germans is that they are hard workers for several
hours, then they take off and play. During the time they are working they are
focused on getting work done.

Americans will put in long hours, but then during the course of the day will
play in the form of checking personal email, talking around the water cooler,
etc.

You can cross ref. this with NASA's finding that programmers who were only
allowed to work 5 days a week of 8 hour days were as productive and had less
bugs in their code than those allowed to work more hours.

~~~
mattm
My experience echoes this. I really believe there is a fixed limit to the
amount of work one can do and once you cross that line, you just end up
goofing off or procrastinating. And it's nowhere near 40 hours per week. I
would say it's more like 20-30.

The 40 hour work week is standard because Henry Ford's productivity studies
found that for repetitive, manual labour, that was the maximum amount of hours
one could work before a drastic reduction in productivity. That bar was set
nearly 100 years ago and yet we still follow it even though work has
drastically changed.

I never understand people who work insane hours. They may be at work for X
hours per day but I really doubt they are working all that time.

~~~
bpyne
I saw a PBS documentary sometime in the early 90's about the Labor Movement in
the US. Just after getting the 40 hour work week, they pushed for 32 hours
because it was found to be optimal. Industrialists fought harder against that
one so Congress felt it was a worthy compromise to leave at 40. I'd love to
find the study the Labor Movement based its conclusion on.

My own experience is that I'm maximally focused for 6 hours each day but it's
split into 2-3 hour bursts.

~~~
hackerblues
I have the same experience as a mathematics grad student. After two or three
hours I run out of focus and need to go for a walk + food.

~~~
bpyne
I noticed the same thing when I was a math undergrad. While working on proofs
for Abstract Algebra and Real Analysis, I couldn't go more than a couple of
hours.

------
Hagelin
_"How did Germany become such a great place to work in the first place? The
Allies did it.”_

What? I’m pretty sure the European labour movement and the Social Democrats
wouldn’t agree with that answer. On a list of possible explanations, I think
”You can thank the Americans for it” would rank rather low.

~~~
lenni
Maybe not so much in this specific instance, but Germany's economic and
political structure (decentralisation of power and money) was a direct result
of the occupation by the Allies, who wanted to avoid a strong central
government. America was hugely influential in 1945-70.

~~~
danieldk
But the Dutch, French, Scandinavian, and others aren't, and the those systems
is very comparable to that of Germany. Many of the ideas originate from far
before WWII, and had a strong presence (and development) in Europe since
events such as the French revolution.

It's America-centrism to think that all welfare and modernism is brought to
the world by the USA. One typical anecdote a former exchange student told me,
that some high school kids in the USA believed (this was at the end of the
nineties) that European countries do not have their own radio channels ;). Go
educate yourself, the average Western-European citizen has more luxury, more
free time, and better health-care than the average citizen of the United
States (I know, I have visited the US often).

The primary advantage of the US is that it is far easier to set up a company,
and make it really big. If you make it, you will be rich and wealthy. If you
fail, you will hit rock bottom. It is a consequence of the system, wages,
taxing, etc.

~~~
yummyfajitas
_Go educate yourself, the average Western-European citizen has more luxury,
more free time, and better health-care than the average citizen of the United
States (I know, I have visited the US often)._

Help me educate myself. Provide some evidence.

~~~
arethuza
Of those three areas, only the "more free time" element is easy to compare:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time>

From those statistics it does look like the average citizen of the United
States probably does work more hours in a year than the average citizen of the
EU.

[Edited to remove the comment about "but not by a huge factor"]

~~~
jules
[http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/64/Yea...](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/64/Yearly_working_time_2004.jpg/400px-
Yearly_working_time_2004.jpg)

I'm surprised that what are generally considered the richest countries are all
at the bottom: Netherlands, Sweden, Norway, France, Germany, etc. The
difference in working hours between those and the US is huge: 1307 - 1362
hours/year compared to 1777 hours/year.

~~~
w00pla
It is not as simple as that. There are many countries in which the official
work day is less than the real work day. As an example, in Japan no-one leaves
before the boss leaves (so it can be longer than the official time).

Also, in some countries there are many people working for themselves (such as
in small businesses). These people generally work more than the official time.

I had a family member work for 14 hours a week (10 hours saturday and sunday)
while starting their own business (this went on for two years).

Small business owners break the law a lot and work more than the allotted
time.

------
speleding
I've worked in both countries and I noticed at least one explanation for the
productivity difference that isn't mentioned in the article. If a German is at
risk of missing a deadline on a project he will put in a lot of extra hours to
avoid that. An American who already puts in way more hours has much less time
and energy left to make up for unforeseen circumstances. So the increase in
flexibility pays off by avoiding rescheduling dependent projects. Perhaps this
flexibility may have other benefits too, such as that people have more time to
intellectually enrich themselves in ways that benefit the company.

~~~
zv
Can't agree more.

------
dsplittgerber
This guy has lots of facts wrong - makes you wonder about his accuracy in
research:

\- no federally mandated six weeks of vacation time (though 4-5 weeks are the
norm, even in private sector)

\- University tuition has been introduced recently (though still low, but will
rise as obvious source of gov revenue)

\- Free nursing care / child care for a small percentage of toddlers only

\- No labor minister of that name (he is undersecretary) etc.

~~~
Loic
Vacations norm is more 5 to 6 weeks with 38h to 41h work week. That is, for
all the people I know in Germany. (I know nobody with only 4 weeks). Please
note that these are paid holidays, you have a lot of days off too (Christmas,
etc.)

The University tuition is about €500/year.

Nursing/Day care for the kids (we have 3.5 and 1.5 year old kids) is from free
to €200/€500 per month for both of them (it depends of your income and where
you live).

For the title "minister" or alike, this is always a translation issue, it is
always hard to map the name from one country to another because the same name
may mean something different (Prime Minister in UK and France for example).

~~~
bpyne
I'm employed at a university in the US and have what we consider a "cushy"
job: i.e. good benefits and a short work week. Just for comparison, here's
what my employer offers.

vacation = 2 weeks

personal time = 6 days (sick time is considered personal time)

holidays = 7

We have also time off that I don't know how to categorize. It's specific to
universities.

university shutdown between Christmas and New Year's = 7 days

Memorial Day until Labor Day we leave at 1pm on Friday, assuming no critical
work needs to be completed.

University tuition ranges and often includes housing, which is necessary in
less urban areas. $1000/class would be on the low end.

Day care for our 4.5 year old is about $250/week.

My work week is 40 hours but we're strongly encouraged to take a 1 hour lunch.
However, with the exception of one other person in my social circle, everyone
else works 45+ hours weekly.

EDIT: Applied line breaks again.

~~~
philwelch
"University tuition ranges and often includes housing, which is necessary in
less urban areas."

Really? I'd think campus housing would be more necessary in urban areas, just
to provide subsidized living space in often expensive areas. I go to a rural
university, and there are more than enough apartments around--just living by
myself, I'm paying less than half for a studio apartment than I would for a
bed in a dorm room.

~~~
bpyne
My thought pattern was more along the line of urban areas have plenty of
apartments available off campus. Rent fluctuates according to the local
market: my own city is a steal for students right now. Some markets are always
ridiculously high, e.g. NYC and Boston. In less urban areas where land is
available, universities can easily build dormitories. Of course, I haven't
seen more than a handful of universities so I'll admit to a small sample size.

~~~
philwelch
In less urban areas where land is available, developers can easily build
apartments--but in urban areas where land is unavailable, my theory was that
students just increase demand on the existing housing market with supply less
able to react.

Here in Pullman, Washington, student housing is cheap and readily available
just because there's so much room to expand. There's always a wheat field you
can turn into an apartment complex somewhere.

~~~
bpyne
I can see your scenario happening. Around me, the housing market crashed just
after some large condo and apartment building projects got underway. The
developers dropped prices/rents, which caused the owners of smaller, older
apartment buildings to drop rents by as much as 50%.

Developing in non-urban areas would be really subject to local zoning.

In any event, remove housing from the university cost - e.g. a student living
at home - and you're still looking at a low of $10K per year. ($1K/class * 5
classes/semester * 2 semesters) That's not accounting for probably another
$300 in miscellaneous fees. Factor in books and it could easily add another
$500/semester.

You can probably find some scenarios in which the cost is lower, but $10K is
really "bargain basement" nowadays in the US.

~~~
philwelch
Yes, $10K per year is in-state tuition at my school.

------
maxawaytoolong
I don't know much about other industries. But in software, much of the 'long
hours' seems like the result of keeping up appearances, not actual necessity.
In my office now, I am sitting here posting to Hacker News. My sysadmins are
playing foosball. They'll probably then go get lunch for an hour. Then come
back, read some websites for an hour. Punch out a couple tickets. Play
foosball. Go to some meetings. Then around 6pm people will start freaking out
and stay until 10 or 11 scrambling to get the work done they were supposed to
do all day.

In contrast, a startup I once worked for grew large enough to have an office
in Germany. I went to work there one summer. The Germans simply didn't fuck
around. They'd come in by like 8 am, crush the problems, crank out features
and then go home. The Germans maybe weren't as "fun" as their US counterparts,
but they were an order of magnitude more efficient.

I don't know what it is, but Germans seem to have a cold, efficient
"Terminator" relationship to work. Americans have a dramatic bi-polar
relationship to work, where they waste a lot of time when they are working and
then worry and complain about their jobs are when they are not working.

------
Tichy
It feels funny that Germany is being marked as the prototypical socialist
country. We don't think of us like that.

It seems even in the US the state is paying for things (streets, school?), so
the US is also socialist? It seems to me that by the definition that most US
commentators seem to use, any country with taxes is socialist.

As for the health insurance, note that it is only mandatory for employed
people. If you are a freelancer or business owner/entrepreneur, you can drop
out of the social insurance system for the most parts (except if the
government decides to use taxes to compensate for troubles with the pension
plans, which is outrageous to me). In fact, it is a problem to get into the
social insurance system if you are not employed.

While health insurance is expensive here, I don't think it makes us into a
socialist country. In the real socialist and communist countries you were
supposed to give up everything for the benefit of the state, and your idea of
fun free time was hopefully voluntary farm work.

~~~
gyardley
Many Americans don't distinguish between 'socialist' and 'social democracy',
since there hasn't been a strong social democratic tradition in America for
generations. You should just swap out the two terms, and then (hopefully) the
conversation will feel a bit less weird.

------
DanielBMarkham
This article is pure speculative narrative.

That is, whereas most essays make a thesis, then present evidence and
arguments to support that thesis, this article presents a whole story spun out
of thin air, involving FDR, national health insurance, vacations, the Chinese.

As such, it presents an interesting problem. You could argue with some detail
--- such as the role Germany plays as a competitive partner in China -- and
still it would have much of nothing to do with the rest of the essay. The
thing is so loosely coupled it's impervious to criticism. I'm not sure whether
to be impressed or disgusted.

I found this to be more of the same fairy tale we Americans have been telling
ourselves for decades -- if only we were the Europeans. Things would be so
much better. While Germans are doing some great things, we will never be
Germany. Or Norway. Or Sweden. Personally I'd like to move beyond that and
talk about the real country we live in.

~~~
timr
_"This article is pure speculative narrative. That is, whereas most essays
make a thesis, then present evidence and arguments to support that thesis,
this article presents a whole story spun out of thin air, involving FDR,
national health insurance, vacations, the Chinese."_

Huh. Maybe we're being A/B tested, because the article that _I_ just read
began with a clear thesis ( _"European social democracy – particularly
Germany’s – offers some tantalizing solutions to our overworked age"_ ),
provided multiple lines of evidence and arguments to support that thesis, and
didn't mention the "FDR" or "the Chinese" at all (it mentions, _China_ , at
the very end...but only to say that China isn't our enemy). If the article
that _you_ read is speculative and theoretical...well, perhaps you've got
something from the Cato institute stuck in your browser cache?

It's also pretty interesting that you would lead with that statement, when
your counter-argument is an assertion: _"we will never be Germany"_. Maybe
you're right, but I'm missing the part of your comment where you provide
evidence and arguments to support your thesis -- or even an argument as to why
we need to be Germany to adopt some of their ideas. Must be the A/B testing.

~~~
jeebusroxors
_"You can pull out these GDP per capita statistics and say that people in
Mississippi are vastly wealthier than people in Frankfurt and Hamburg. That
can’t be true. Just spend two months in Hamburg and spend two months in
Tupelo, Mississippi. There’s something wrong if the statistics are telling you
that the people in Tupelo are three times wealthier than the people in
Germany."_

I stopped reading after this thinking along the same lines as the OP. I'm
still not fully awake but this doesn't seem like a good argument, although to
be fair you didn't say the arguments were good.

~~~
kjhgfgbhnj
GDP is a terrible measure of a population's wealth.

As a famous economist said - "the ideal GDP is a chain-smoking terminal cancer
patient going through an expensive divorce whose car is totalled in a 20-car
pileup"

------
dhoe
It's an interesting topic, and quite complex. In my line of work (high level
tech support), measuring productivity is relatively straightforward, and the
European team with its 30 days of holidays and no overtime at all beats the US
team in average output per year easily. Both lose out to the Indians, whom I
admire a lot for the pure raw effort.

On the other hand, I've heard local startups complain about the difficulty of
finding people that are willing to put in the hours that you'd need in a
startup.

~~~
gst
Do startups really need these hours? Or do they only think they need them?
It's not the hours that count, it's the output.

For example, I can work 60 or 80 hours a week instead of 40, but it doesn't
really make a difference because the effective output will stay more or less
the same. Without sufficient leisure time I'm just slower and I'll make errors
when working.

In addition, with progressive systems it doesn't even make sense to work that
much. 20 hours more a week reduces my leisure time to effectively zero. On the
other hand, even if this additional hours were paid, the effective difference
would be minimal, due to the high taxes I'd have to pay for them.

~~~
arethuza
I'm interested that this question has got so many votes without any replies.

In my view there are times in start-ups (I've been involved in two, once as a
co-founder) there are times when you do have to go that extra mile (or ten),
but I don't think coding is the area where this is really obvious.

For example, if there are a handful of people in the company and you try and
get VC investment that takes a _huge_ amount of effort so you end up having
coding time round about other tasks. So even though your total code output
doesn't go up that much you end up doing piles of other stuff (e.g. planning
for a major deployment at a customer) thay someone technical has to do but
which _isn't_ coding. Something has got to give - so you work longer hours,
not because you want to, but because you have to.

Looking back do I think expecting employees to work crazy hours makes them any
more productive as developers - absolutely not. But as a founder/exec you
_have_ to do it.

------
mike-cardwell
I'm surprised wealth distribution wasn't mentioned in the stuff about GDP
comparison. I'm no Economist but I was under the impression that wealth is
distributed more evenly in European countries than in the US. We have rich
people here in Europe but the US seems to have lots of _insanely_ rich people
and lots of poor people to go with it...

~~~
arethuza
Norway is an interesting example - one of the highest per capita GDP figures
but unusual in that the distribution of incomes is very narrow e.g.

[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspon...](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/4223148.stm)

~~~
gyardley
Norway is a very lovely country but I doubt there's a sustainable model there
for the rest of the world to follow, since we all can't become the world's
third-largest exporter of oil.

~~~
arethuza
I think Norway is interesting because they have such a narrow distribution of
wealth even though they have vast riches from oil, not because of those
riches.

Edit: The Norwegian Sovereign Wealth Fund apparently owns 1% of global
equities!
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_Norw...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_Norway)

~~~
gyardley
Well, if I remember correctly (I'm no expert on recent Norwegian history),
Norway had a tradition of social democracy for a couple of decades before it
discovered its oil reserves. I suspect they also had a high degree of income
equality, even back then.

I'm only arguing that today their social democracy continues to do well - and
isn't under the same pressure of other European states' - because of their
wealth.

~~~
maxawaytoolong
Norway was also one of, if not the poorest country in Europe until the oil
boom. They did indeed have a high degree of income equality - nobody had any
money. Culturally, this, along with the harsh environment meant that
Norwegians already had learned to live collectively and save whatever they
had.

------
lenni
Hmm, I enjoy hearing all the praise heap onto us (Germany) latetly. There was
a time when Germany was called the sick, fat old man of Europe, too inflexible
and and stubborn to able to adjust to a changing environment.

I'm sure once the growth lessens the tone will change again - I'll enjoy it as
long as it lasts.

~~~
dsplittgerber
Which growth are you referring to? Growth has overall been dismal at best.

~~~
lenni
2.2% economic growth in the last quarter; higher than anything since
reunification.

[http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/aug/13/german-
econom...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/aug/13/german-economy-
fastest-growth-ever)

~~~
dsplittgerber
Guess my irony didn't show. Compared to the US and Asia and even EU-growth,
Germany has not performed ahead of the pack at all, growth-wise. It has
trailed behind US growth for years.

~~~
tezza
As a London based person, the 'suddeness' of the interest in Deutsche strategy
is palpable.

Last years 'sick man' is now the healthiest man on the block:: IF the Keynsian
stimulation favoured by America does not work.

Further, there are mounting concerns (valid or not) that China may not be the
saviour some hoped. If that transpires, the situation will be bleak indeed for
the indebted US and good for the 'austere' Germans. This may feel like being
the 'best' survivors of a nuclear war however.

I think people are gently probing which entities will be the big players in
the next few years and are trying to copy plays from their playbook.

~~~
Nitramp
These press articles (and maybe even the underlying Economic studies) are just
nonsense. E.g., Ireland used to be the magic model for all of Europe with huge
GDP growth, now they are completely broke. Same for the Baltic states to a
lesser degree.

One year, it's all fairy dust and unicorns, the next year doom and gloom. Seen
from some distance, this sounds a lot like people who have no clue at all
making long term predictions based only on what they see right now.

Which again confirms my suspicion that Economy as a science at least on that
level doesn't hold much water. The predictions might as well be random.

~~~
macco
No real scientiest talk like these press articles. Economic models can only
simulate a few variables. Unfortunately economic development depends on almost
infinate number of variables.

I know: I know nothing :)

------
eru
From the artice: "Germany has the highest degree of worker control on the
planet since the collapse of the Soviet Union." As if the Soviet union was a
workers' paradise. There was lots of party control, but certainly not worker
control.

~~~
roel_v
Yes, comparing European 'socialism' to Soviet/Chinese style socialism
('communism') is so myopic that it has become a litmus test to detect writers
who have at least a basic understanding of American/European system
comparisons. Someone who sees 'socialism' and interprets it American-style,
and thinks that Europe is that, starts out so wrong that anything based on
those assumptions is tainted.

------
praptak
I believe the author is wrong about GDP contribution of free tuition:

 _"You know, it’s 50,000 dollars for tuition at NYU and it’s zero at Humboldt
University in Berlin. So NYU adds catastrophic amounts of GDP per capita and
Humboldt adds nothing."_

Granted, there are several approaches to calculating GDP but none of them
ignores the government spending.

~~~
stuaxo
Ah, but does it cost the government of Germany 50,000 dollars for a years
tuition?

~~~
praptak
Probably less but not zero as the author states.

------
lefstathiou
I've always found these America vs Europe comparisons to to be rather poor.
We're so much bigger and more diverse and our problems are on such a larger
scale that its hard for me to rationalize we are still talking apples to
apples. I cant help but laugh when i see these "quality of life" indexes that
compare Norway, one of the most xenophobic/racist/elitist nations with a
population half that of Manhattan, to the US.

While it's easy to point out how much nicer life is in Europe, i worry that
people forget how much of that lifestyle is fueled by American
growth/consumption. In Greece we have an expression, when America sneezes, the
world catches a cold. If America slows down, the European lifestyle, which is
already in decline given its unsustainability, is going to completely
disappear.

To me, an unsustainable system of life/rule/govt etc is bad by definition,
regardless of whether or not it works "for now". European companies are
falling behind their American counterparts in many of the next generation
industries. The Chinese are lining up to trounce them further. It's going to
get really bad unless they make some serious changes.

Just my perspective, not that it's worth much.

~~~
sasvari
_Norway, one of the most xenophobic/racist/elitist nations_

for me this is a pretty severe accusation. don't know on which _data_ you are
basing that on ...

 _European companies are falling behind their American counterparts in many of
the next generation industries._

well, do they? do all of them? which industries? which companies? looking at
_green technology_ i.e., Europe (especially Germany) is in a very good
position for the future. and this is one of the most promising industries ...

------
linuxhansl
A German here living in the US for about 10 years...

I found that I my line of work (software engineering), this is not generally
true. I used to work more daily hours when I was still in Germany, and there
was a culture of "You have to be in the office, otherwise we cannot verify
that you are actually working".

Here I work from home when I like, work odd hours, work few hours (as long as
I work focused during the hours I do work), and I am generally trusted to get
my work done.

------
gyardley
I'm starting to think there's something to the idea of a national culture -
nothing genetic, but a set of high-level assumptions and attitudes about life
that inform the vast majority of people in a region, across the political
spectrum. I've personally run into vast differences in attitudes about privacy
and government between Americans and Germans, and I've been thinking a lot
lately about Heinrich's 'WEIRD' paper (which finds differences between
Americans and other Western nations - and Western nations and the rest of the
world - on psychological tests.)

I suspect that because of certain prevalent American values (autonomy,
distrust of authority, a bit of the Horatio Alger myth) they've naturally
optimized to the work environment best suited to them. I further suspect that
America could only switch to a German system very, very gradually. The
country's just not currently suited for social democracy - they'd be terrible
at it.

------
Destruct1
Whenever a recession hits a country everbody doubts their system. They look
for other countries which are growing at the moment and try to emulate their
success.

I still remember the time when the japanese were strong and everybody
(europeans and americans) tried to become japanese, use their culture and work
ethic.

In a decade or two, the american will forget the recession and wonder about
wierd articles like this one.

~~~
bitwize
Nice job putting that song in my head, hero.

"...turning Japanese, I think I'm turning Japanese, I really think so..."

------
c4urself
standard offers i've come across in contracts is 2 free days per working month
here, however 20 days is minimum by law not counting holidays. i've lived both
in the US and EU, and while i feel there is more freedom in the US, the
problem is as soon as you start working you can't enjoy them cause you're
working 40+ hours per week and barely have any vacation.

~~~
frobozz
Only working 10/11 days per month - 8 in February? Where is this?

~~~
kleiba
20 (work-) days per year, not month.

~~~
frobozz
Right, that makes sense now.

------
d_c
"free university tuition" -> Not true anymore, it's more like 300-600 Euros
per semester. Still not much compared to the US but enough for german students
to protest and public banks to create state-sponsored student loans. This type
of loan for students was unknown before in Germany.

~~~
roel_v
Are there state-provided student loans in Germany? Here in the Netherlands
there have been for years (decades maybe? - I'm an immigrant here, my
knowledge only goes back 15 years or so ;) )

~~~
dhoe
Yes, although the rules change frequently. For me it was an interest free loan
of which I had to pay back only 50%.

------
jackowayed
> _You know, it’s 50,000 dollars for tuition at NYU and it’s zero at Humboldt
> University in Berlin. So NYU adds catastrophic amounts of GDP per capita and
> Humboldt adds nothing_

GDP = private consumption + gross investment + government spending + (exports
− imports)

So unless the government is managing not to pay the professors or pay any
other money to make Humboldt happen, Humboldt is adding to the GDP, just as
government spending rather than consumer spending.

Now, it may not cost the government $50k/student. But it doesn't cost them 0
either.

------
sigstoat
i could swear that in the early/mid 90's, the story was that germans were more
awesome because they worked longer hours than we did. now we're not awesome
because we work longer hours. am i misremembering the articles, or have we
indeed always been at war with eurasia?

------
temphn
Maybe the US is the most powerful country in the world _because_ its people
work hard in a high productivity system.

America is an exception. But perhaps it is "out of sync" with the world in the
same way Google is out of sync with your average software corp.

------
vondur
Our government could provide us with all the embellishments that the major
European Democracies enjoy. Unfortunately, a big chuck of our tax dollars
supports our Empire (wars and a enormous military)

------
gills
Well, this is as far as I could read.

 _Despite the numbers, social democracy really does work_...

Yes, numbers, those pesky axioms that just won't obey when we legislate away
the laws of physics.

Oh. My.

------
parbo
How about moving to Sweden? We have 4G (the real LTE-kind) in the three
largest cities now, and even better social safety net than Germany. ;)

~~~
count
Isn't it incredibly difficult for non-EU citizens to move to Sweden to
work/live?

~~~
martinkallstrom
No, not as far as I know from the people I know that are in that situation. Of
course there are some things you have to deal with, but they are more than
bearable.

------
known
The Xenophobe's Guide to the Germans
<http://www.ovalbooks.com/xeno/Germans.html>

