

Prostitution in Germany: Has liberalisation gone too far? - DanBC
http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21589922-has-liberalisation-oldest-profession-gone-too-far-giant-teutonic-brothel

======
Udo
I'm German and I feel this article fails to grasp the atmosphere around here.
The country is certainly not one giant brothel. Growing up here, brothels have
the same aura as sex shops, sex kinos, and whatever other sex industry places
exist. In fact, many times they're joints offering multiple services. Yes,
they can be seedy (especially in "big" cities around the train station area),
but if you look hard enough you can find them in pretty much every larger
town. They're by the road side, or even as is the case in my home town, smack
in the middle of the shopping district. It's not like there are prostitutes
standing around everywhere, for the most part they are just large hotel-like
buildings that look a bit like clubs.

In fact, from outside presentation, it's easy in some cases to mistake a
bordello for a girlie bar, a private nudist club, a massage parlor, a swinger
club, or whatever. When I was working on our startup, we were selling some of
our old displays once and a middle aged business woman came in to buy them. We
got talking and she told us she was running a brothel. Being a business
ourselves, we quickly exchanged stories and experiences that sounded very
similar (we were a software startup that had nothing to do with sex). The gist
of it was for me, that looking into this somewhat alien world, these brothels
are just normal small businesses. I'm sure there are brutal mafia-owned
exploitation joints in this country, but the average urban brothel seems to be
more like a mom and pop shop. The article claims that only 44 sex workers took
advantage of social benefits, but that simply cannot be the whole story. This
brothel owner I talked with told me that while the girls register with other
occupation names officially, every single one of them was getting a normal
wage, with taxes and everything.

From where I'm standing, the fact that it's not illegal helps a lot of people
with no discernible downside.

Are there appalling slave labor shops based on human trafficking? I'm sure
they exist, but they _are_ illegal. I'm also sure those do not make up the
vast majority of brothels in Germany. As for the rest, it's difficult to make
a convincing argument that the country would be a better place for anyone if
they would be driven underground.

Anecdotally I do get the feeling that prostitutes as a profession are mainly
serving an older generation though, so I'm not sure if they remain
economically viable anyway.

~~~
wuschel
Nice post, however, I would not agree to this statement:

"Anecdotally I do get the feeling that prostitutes as a profession are mainly
serving an older generation though, so I'm not sure if they remain
economically viable anyway."

Prostitution is tied to the nature of the sexuality of men - which is likely
not going to change in the next time. There is a strong demand for
uncomplicated, quick, cheap sexual satisfaction within the male population,
and prostitutes cater to this demand. The image of the 60 year old unemployed
client is wrong.

There was a nice article in the last FAS (Frankfurter Allgemeine
Sonntagszeitung 17.11.2013, a leading German newspaper) that reported on a
biased podium discussion of a well known stone age feminist. I found the
article to be nice because it discussed the needs of prostitutes e.g. respect
of the customer, hygienic business practices, safe environment, etc.

~~~
Udo
Like I said, you are probably right that my perception in this regard is not
representative of German society as a whole. However, I consider myself to be
male, and I have to object to a blanket statement like

 _> Prostitution is tied to the nature of the sexuality of men_

It's obviously not tied to _my_ nature nor the nature of most men in my social
circle. Are we not real men, then? I get that the intent here was probably to
express how prostitution is fueled by male desire, but I don't agree with the
implication that this is how all men feel.

~~~
wuschel
You are right, I should have been more precise.

What I meant to say is that prostitution is one way to satisfy the unfulfilled
sex drive a man has. I was not talking about feelings, but about a - so to say
- intrinsic biological potential to find a mate and copulate. A man will
consider the offer of a prostitute on a simple sexual basis if he is attracted
to her. It is a biological drive that each individual seeks to have satisfied.
If this drive is not satisfied, the stimulus for attraction can be lower.

Of course, there is also a strong emotional factor involved, ethical
components, fears (e.g. STDs, being caught etc). But I was not referring to
that.

Please note that I was not trying to picture men as animals - on the contrary,
I was just trying to show that male sexual behaviour has strong biological
components. As does the sexual behaviour of women.

I would like to know what factors are the most important in the rejection of a
prostitute's offer, as I think that prostitution it is part of a deep
sociological process. It would not surprise me if the hygienic component would
be the strongest one.

------
lenni
I live in Germany and it is by no means a "giant brothel". Yes, there are
large ones scattered around motorway exits and industrial parks. To me, them
being tacky capitalist sex shopping centres is preferable to being
underground, dingy and dangerous.

Trafficking and exploitation is definitely a problem but I'm not sure if the
law change from 2001 has made matters worse or better.

~~~
flexie
But it is so typical for the Economist to make far fetched claims. In my view
it is one of the most overrated magazines. Their use of statistics or their
pseudo objective way of juxtaposing views doesn't hide that essentially their
articles are just a collection of anonymous opinion pieces.

~~~
gonvaled
I used to read the Economist, and I was very much under the impression that
they were champions of objectivity, and that they provided a very critical and
unique point of view. Nothing further from the truth: they also have an
agenda, so they shoehorn the facts to their conclusions. Exactly as everybody
else is doing (maybe not so cleverly). I stopped reading it when I could
pretty well predict what they would say about a certain topic. And currently
their "I told you so" attitude disgusts me profoundly.

------
makomk
Hah. I like how they describe their figure of "400,000 prostitutes catering to
1m men a day" as the "best guess". What they really mean is that - as usually
happens with this issue - some politician or activist group (probably either
right-wingers or a feminist group that wants to impose the Swedish model on
Germany) has made up a number out of whole cloth. Every time you see a
statistic like this, always try and find the actual factual basis for it -
good luck though because it won't exist!

~~~
raphman
This '400,000 prostitutes' figure seems to have originated from Hydra e.V., a
prostitutes association [1]. It is at least three years old and seems to
include part-time prostitutes as well. Generally, it seems to be an upper
bound.

[1]
[http://www.bmfsfj.de/BMFSFJ/root,did=132012.html](http://www.bmfsfj.de/BMFSFJ/root,did=132012.html)
(German)

------
hwh
I think it can safely be stated that the law changes makes life easier for
"regular" prostitution, i.e. prostitution going by the law. It doesn't
criminalize anymore, it doesn't exclude. It's not just about welfare, like the
article seems to mockingly assert at a point, it is about social security,
medicare, ...

As for whether it leads to more prostitution overall, that is not
scientifically established.

Admittedly, there is a sector of prostitution, where that law didn't change a
thing. That's where the actual crimes happen.

Nobody created the liberalization laws with the intent to lower prostitution
rate overall.

The situation before was a bit more aweful than with the (liberal) law.
Prostitution was legal, but only doing it. When it came to legally enforce
payment, sex workers didn't have much in their hand. That arguably supported
pimping and bringing the "sex business" into shady regions.

------
rustynails
If you read the comments at the guardian, there are many well reasoned
arguments. Some points include \- parallels to war on drugs (a failure) \-
separating forced vs voluntary workers \- ability to report crimes where it's
legal \- provides an opportunity/income for some to better themselves

One of my ex girlfriends became a prostitute. It's one example only. She loved
(and supposedly still loves) sex. She was never for long term commitment. She
is financially doing well. She featured in a documentary on the industry, and
she provides counseling for abused women.

Very insightful posters. Glad to see common sense prevail, rather than the
usual gender war (emotive) arguments.

Thanks for the link.

------
revelation
The drug wars already tell us you can't get rid of some perceived evil by
outlawing it when theres a huge intrinsic demand. Outlaw the buyers, the
sellers, the importers.. it has all been tried a billion times, and all
attempts have failed.

The problem with the laws in Germany is that liberal laws can't change
society. If prostitution is this shady thing where only drug addicts work..
well then no matter the laws, the development of a proper industry is harmed.
It will take at least another generation to get rid of the old mindset.

~~~
homakov
> The drug wars already tell us you can't get rid of some perceived evil

define "evil"

~~~
DanBC
> define "evil"

Whatever the law makers define as undesirable for society.

Notice parent comment uses "perceived" evil.

Law makers perceive drugs as harmful for the users and society, they perceive
drugs as evil. The accuracy of their perceptions are not discussed in parent
comment.

~~~
homakov
Right. In my opinion some of drugs can be called evil but prostitution is
something natural and not evil at all

------
homakov
One giant brothel. Isn't it awesome? What's wrong with you guys!

------
dalore
> Has the liberalisation of the oldest profession gone too far?

No

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge's_law_of_headlines](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge's_law_of_headlines)

------
berntb
The ending was a bit fun for a Swede:

>> But whereas progressive Swedes view their state as able to set positive
goals, Germans (the Greens, especially) mistrust the state on questions of
personal morality as a hypocritical and authoritarian threat to self-
expression. Only this can explain why Swedes continue overwhelmingly to
support their policy, and Germans theirs.

Sweden is consensus driven. Only one opinion is allowed at a time in many
subjects. No media(/political party) is arguing the German solution in Sweden,
it would just be impossible.

Me? I have an unusual attitude in Sweden. I ask: What works best? Frankly, I
don't know. The Swedish way sounds nicer, but... does it _really_ work?

(I don't really trust Swedish research on this, a large part of that will come
with an agenda.)

Some other Swede will comment and claim I'm totally misrepresenting everything
about just one opinion at a time.

Then I will point out e.g. that in Sweden housing just isn't being built,
because it would lose votes (and probably lobbying from the big building
companies that like the present situation). This at the same time as the
population is increasing quickly. This is insane -- but the media isn't
screaming at the politicians anyway. Another thing not discussed
[immigration].

(There, I saved HN from a few more stupid comments.)

What I would really want to see is trafficking statistics for Sweden and
Germany. This is a modern slave trade that destroy people's lives by torturing
them for money. Worse than heroin.

Edit: "k__", read the article. It isn't outlawed to sell sex in .se, it is
outlawed to buy it. That is a difference compared to drugs. The effects of
this is uncertain.

~~~
makomk
Sweden's handling of sex workers gets a lot less scrutiny than it really ought
to. In particular, while it's _technically_ true that they don't criminalise
the actual prostitutes (unless they're migrants who aren't legally allowed to
work in the country), _Sweden criminalizes everyone around them_. For
instance, there's an explicit provision requring landlords to evict any
tenants whom they have reason to believe are having sex for money in the
leased property and making it a criminal offense for them not to do so.

~~~
DanBC
The UK has had some changes to its prostitution laws.

It's legal for two people to exchange sex for money.

But then there are some added technicalities: two or more women cannot share a
property to use for sex work (because that becomes a brothel); people cannot
control sex workers (pimping is illegal); it's illegal to pay a trafficked
worker for sex; etc etc.

These have been added over the years, and so we have a confusing situation.
People don't really know what is or isn't legal.

With this kind of stuff law should be clear because it's mostly about telling
society what is acceptable. That guides people into making less unacceptable
choices. (EG: Curb crawling: "Pay women to have sex is okay; but don't
approach women on the street in your car and ask if they're prostitutes". That
law should be about guiding people to use advertised prostitutes, but it's
used to clamp down on all prostitution.)

