
My experiment with smart drugs: Viagra for the brain? - robg
http://www.johannhari.com/archive/article.php?id=1298
======
kirubakaran

      Man: (calling in panic) Doctor, I ate Viagra but I can't find my wife anywhere.
      Doc: Don't you have a maid?
      Man: Come on doc, I don't need Viagra when I'm with the maid.
    

May be the problem lies elsewhere.

~~~
asnyder
While an interesting project can get you excited to work on something, I doubt
it can simulate all the neurological receptors that this drug can. The great
Paul Erdos was known for his use of amphetamines throughout his life, and
after a period of voluntary abstinence famously said, "Before, when I looked
at a piece of blank paper my mind was filled with ideas. Now all I see is a
blank piece of paper."

~~~
antiform
I actually think the two sentences that follow that quote reveal a lot more
about Paul Erdos.

"You've showed me I'm not an addict. But I didn't get any work done. I'd get
up in the morning and stare at a blank piece of paper. I'd have no ideas, just
like an ordinary person. You've set mathematics back a month."

([http://www.untruth.org/~josh/papers/Paul%20Erd%F6s%20bio-
rev...](http://www.untruth.org/~josh/papers/Paul%20Erd%F6s%20bio-rev2.pdf))

------
Prrometheus
I often wonder whether or not one could get similar effects through
meditation. When I was doing regular Buddhist meditation exercises, I felt
that I had an increased level of concentration. The disadvantages are that
meditation is much harder than taking a pill and the effects might not be as
strong. The advantages are that meditation has no harmful long-term side
effects and has much longer lasting positive effects than any drug that
temporarily alters brain chemistry. Meditation causes long-term changes in
brain structure and function.

~~~
KirinDave
I'm pretty sure if narcolepsy could be controlled by meditation people would
do it. Clearly Modafinil has a measurable clinical effect that no amount of wu
can reproduce.

I was surprised how well tested it is, given this off-label use. It's a
reasonably tested drug:
[http://www.powerset.com/explore/semhtml/Modafinil?query=Prov...](http://www.powerset.com/explore/semhtml/Modafinil?query=Provigil)

~~~
jraines
Right -- I'll give you one guess what happens when narcoleptics try to
meditate.

~~~
jonnytran
I know you're joking, but meditation doesn't have to be done sitting or lying
down. It can be done standing, walking, or during practically any activity.
It's just that some people get caught up in what they're doing rather than the
meditation, so they sit and do nothing.

~~~
jraines
Actually I'm not joking, but I was referring to sitting or lying down
meditation -- so point taken.

Narcoleptics usually aren't like the puppies in internet videos or the girl in
Deuce Bigalow, falling asleep suddenly and at random. They fall asleep in non-
stimulating situations like a classroom or church and enter the deep part of
the sleep cycle much faster than normal sleepers.

------
m0nty
"As with any drug, Provigil has side effects. According to the [UK govt], the
list is substantial, including nervousness, insomnia, excitation,
irritability, tremors, dizziness and headaches. It may also cause
"gastrointestinal disturbances", including nausea and abdominal pain, dry
mouth, loss of appetite and cardiovascular effects such as high blood
pressure, palpitations and tachycardia - a fast heart beat."

[http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/research/story/0,,127...](http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/research/story/0,,1271038,00.html)

Still tempting for hitting immediate deadlines, but I'd be very reluctant to
use it long-term.

~~~
keating
Aren't insomnia and excitation the point?

Funny to see insomnia listed as a _side_ effect of Provigil.

~~~
dcurtis
If you look at the research, though, there are a few reports of patients
having severe insomnia for weeks or months after moderate doses of provigil.

------
menloparkbum
I did a similar experiment about 5 years ago and didn't experience any of the
same effects. In my experience provigil was only good for what it was designed
for - staying up for long stretches of time.

~~~
breck
I took it for about 15 days last year when I was having trouble staying awake
and was definitely more relaxed and productive. I think that was a result of
just having a lot more time in the day.

The first few days I only slept about 1-3 hours per night. I would lie in bed
for 30 minutes then get really bored and so I'd read, work, or clean our
apartment. Since I had 20 hours a day, I never felt pressed for time and was
pretty relaxed. It's pretty cool to have time to do laundry, clean, run
errands, spend hours hanging out, read a book or two, exercise, and work all
in one day.

I remember being scared the first night when for over 40 hours not only had I
not slept, i wasn't even tired.

However, over time the effects wore off and I returned to sleeping 6 hours or
so a night. Still less than normal, but at that point the (risk of) side
effects outweighed the extra two hours of time per day.

~~~
alaskamiller
Try humping multiple kilometers through mountain ranges on provigil on a 3-day
training mission. It was one of the worst things I've had to do. Being tired
and being in a state of living death because of drugs are bad. Drugs are bad,
kids, mmmmkay?

~~~
tdavis
I've done this not on drugs and the state of living death still comes on
eventually during the long (20+ K) marches. Man was not meant to march dozens
of miles with 80+ lbs on his back.

Lean forward... that always helps me ;)

------
Tichy
"I decided to take three days off, to see what would happen. It was easy."

I recently had this thought that being easy to wean off might just be another
trick played by drugs to keep us addicted. For example, I have several times
weaned off coffee for a month. It was easy, too, but here I am, still drinking
coffee (again). Since it is so easy to wean off it, I can just stop tomorrow,
so why not have another cup today...?

Also, it seems that some schools "addiction research" only consider something
a relapse if it happens after 6 months not taking the drugs. So anything below
6 months is not even considered as "weaned off".

~~~
icey
If you ever seriously question this, try picking up smoking and quitting. Or,
it's possible that you don't have the appropriate brain chemistry to get
addicted to things easily.

~~~
Tichy
I don't understand the experiment? I guess I would not be able to quit smoking
easily? But that wouldn't show me anything? Could be that coffee does the
"easy to wean off" deception, and smoking doesn't. I suspect there are more
coffee drinkers than smokers in the world (no idea, though).

~~~
icey
I'm sorry, I should have been more clear with my meaning. I used to think
similarly to you regarding addition - I could quit caffeine any time I wanted
for as long as I wanted, but ultimately, I went back to soda or coffee or what
have you.

So, I thought maybe that was the nature of addiction, that it was a subtle
psychological thing.

THEN, I quit smoking, and the hair-pulling, hand-wringing, eye-gouging
experience that followed showed me what addiction was really like.

On the other hand, my girlfriend quit smoking the same day I did, and when she
quit it was like me quitting coffee; no big deal at all.

------
jawngee
I use provigil when I'm on a work bender or playing poker. Helps a lot, no
increase in anxiety, in fact I barely notice I've taken it except for the fact
that concentration/focus is through the roof.

As most everyone knows, I'm a total stoner, so I won't get into that except to
state that it's been nothing but positive on the quality of my work as well as
quantity. But there is direct causality with the quality and variety of bud in
question.

I don't drink alcohol, nor do I do any other drugs. Although I did a lion's
share of ecstasy and LSD back in the early 90's.

~~~
kirubakaran
While I certainly appreciate that you are sharing knowledge, I hope you will
understand that I am a bit skeptical because I don't have first hand
experience. So, entrepreneurs in Amsterdam should, on the average, be more
productive than, say, those in Silicon Valley?

( Please don't take this as an assholic comment though it sounds like that.
Just curious... Also see my startup angle ;) )

~~~
steveplace
I would think that drug culture in San Francisco would be up there with A-dam.
;)

~~~
kirubakaran
Ah that makes sense :)

------
subwindow
I've been experimenting with "smart drugs" (nootropics) for a few weeks.
Piracetam, vinpocetine, aniracetam, inositol and choline. Varying effects, so
far. Ranging from the equivalent of a cup of coffee (without the stimulant
side effects), to extremely different "brain feels". None of them have (so
far- I'm still experimenting) changed my productivity or memory drastically.

I don't view it as anything other than an experiment to see if my brain is
underachieving in its normal state. So far, I'm reasonably satisfied with the
conclusion.

I'd like to try provigil, but it is prescription only. Is there any way to get
it semi-legally without a prescription?

~~~
bigtoga
Look for rms' post on this page

------
AndyKelley
I would recommend eating healthily and running 3-4 days per week. It makes you
feel great, mentally acute, and you know that you're only going to become
healthy and live longer, with no side effects.

~~~
lg
diet-wise, about 2.5 of my 5 meals a day are just fruit, and it does wonders
for sleep. it's like flipping a switch: eat mostly fruit, sleep 6 hours a
night; eat mostly other stuff, sleep 8 hours a night. unfortunately in a
couple weeks i'll be in startup mode and probably unable to afford it.

~~~
ibsulon
Will you afford not to have the extra time?

Try to move to seasonal fruits, and add raw seasonal vegetables on top of it.
Cut out the meat.

(This is probably what I'll be doing when my bf goes out of the country for a
month... or at least, that's what I'm telling myself. :)

------
te_platt
Somehow this part of the article bothered me: "But isn’t that cheating? What’s
the difference between Progivil for students and steroids for athletes?"

Is it cheating for tall people to play basketball? Should smart people take a
drug to make them stupid for a test - to make things "fair"? If provigil
really doesn't have long term negative effects it seems to me like it should
be welcomed.

Using technology to change our natural abilities seems to evoke a certain
amount of fear. More so than is explained by fear of potential negative long
term effects. Why should that be?

~~~
edw519
The cheating angle has nothing to do with "fairness". It has everything to do
with "safety".

Linemen in the National Football League are good examples. Performance
enhancing substances (especially steroids) give such significant advantages
over opponents, at one time you _had_ to take them to compete and keep your
job. Twenty years later your health failed, partially from your occupation but
mainly from the drugs. Many great linemen from the 70's and 80's are dead now.

No one should ever have that dilemma, therefore the ban.

~~~
te_platt
Right. I understand that part. Same reason why professional cyclists wear
helmets. Helmets slow you down a bit but everyone would rather wear one for
safety even if they wouldn't because they would take the risk for a better
chance of winning.

Still thats not quite my question. Getting braces for your teeth seems to be
ok. Some people are uncomfortable with breast implants while others think
they're great (insert your own joke here). What about surgery to make you
smarter? In my gut that seems wrong but I'm not sure why.

~~~
noonespecial
It doesn't seem wrong to me. Surgery to give you 20/20 vision = OK, Surgery to
give you 145 IQ = not ok?? Why? How about an expensive piece of optical
machinery the rich can wear on their faces to give them good vision?

All of the arguments I can come up with for not allowing the smart
surgery/drugs (like it will benefit only the rich, wouldn't be fair etc,) fail
on the "Lasik test". I take this to mean that its simply a cultural taboo now
and will soon be seen as a curious, archaic belief from the distant past.

~~~
keating
> _Surgery to give you 20/20 vision = OK, Surgery to give you 145 IQ = not
> ok?? Why?_

In my case, both would be downgrades.

~~~
noonespecial
Surgery to implant a modicum of tact, humility, and social grace?

~~~
keating
Surgery to implant a sense of humor?

------
markbao
Provigil, the brand name of the drug Modafinil, is unfortunately _illegal_ to
import without a prescription in the United States. [1]

And strange side effects listed... "PROVIGIL may cause you to have a serious
rash or a serious allergic reaction that may result in hospitalization or be
life-threatening. If you develop a rash, hives, sores, swelling, or trouble
swallowing or breathing, stop taking PROVIGIL and call your doctor right away
or get emergency treatment." [2]

Lastly, more side effects:
[http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=provigil+more:drug_...](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=provigil+more:drug_side_effects&cx=drugs_for_patients&sa=N&oi=cooptsr&resnum=0&ct=col1&cd=2)

Interesting drug. Sounds great, but I wouldn't take it, though.

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modafinil#Legal_status>

[2] <http://www.provigil.com/pat/important-safety-info.html>

~~~
minus1
Adrafinil is a similar, but unregulated drug. Legal in the US without a
prescription.

So, if you're planning on experimenting, at least avoid a felony charge.

------
markbao
Ah, that's why results for it were sparse on Google.

It's _Provigil_ , not Progivil.

~~~
kirubakaran
Side effects include dyslexia?

------
jsrn
I'm somewhat unsure about the 'online pharmacy' thing. Has anyone here ordered
Provigil from an online pharmacy that ships to Europe? How do you evaluate
these pharmacies? I don't want to get misslabeled pills etc...

~~~
rms
<http://www.drugbuyers.com/freeboard/ubbthreads.php/ubb/cfrm>

Basically Modafanil is really hard to get in the USA without a legitimate
prescription because the DEA/customs are really good about finding scheduled
drugs in the mail. In the USA you will probably need to do a service where you
pay an online pharmacist/doctor to do a consultation and prescribe you the
medication.

Europe is easier.

~~~
rms
[http://www.pharma-
orders.com/product_info.php?cPath=33&p...](http://www.pharma-
orders.com/product_info.php?cPath=33&products_id=1178)

this one might work, good luck and godspeed

~~~
jsrn
thanks for the help, rms. I will check out the forum (your first link) this
weekend. Regarding the second link: they sell Modalert, which is made by an
Indian company that claims this is a Provigil generic. I have read some
worrying things about Modalert, here is an example:

    
    
       I'm going to restore the statement regarding
       the effectiveness of generics. Yes, in theory,
       the basic ingredient is the same. However, (1) no
       one really knows if Modalert is pure modafinil,
       (2) according to Cephalon's research, modafinil
       loses efficiency if it's in the form of particles
       larger than 40 microns (see US patent 5618845).
       It's not known if particles in Modalert are
       small enough. --Itinerant1 22:47, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
    

(found here:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Modafinil#Generics_.26_eff...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Modafinil#Generics_.26_effectiveness)
)

and

    
    
        Modalert claims to be a generic Modafinil but almost
        all accounts describe it as inferior and its effect
        sounds like it could have something like caffiene
        and/or ingredients used in over-the-counter diet
        medicines to simulate an energizing effect.
    

and

    
    
        I recently reacquired my interest in Modafinil
        because I'm a first year graduate student and I
        need to concentrate for long periods of time.
        But, I chose to be a retard and got sucked into
        buying the cheap Sun Pharma internet crap from
        India that is UTTERLY WORTHLESS!!! I received my
        package today with glee anticipating all those great
        mental and emotional stimulating effects I received
        from Provigil 5 years ago - but listen people, the 
        stuff is ENTIRELY INEFFECTIVE, [...] All I've
        experienced today is an unpleasant and extremely
        jittery ephedra like feeling - no fun at all, and it's
        NOTHING like the true effects of REAL Modafinil. [...]
    

(found here: <http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=18411> )

Here is a thread where someone thinks that the different effectiveness of
Modalert is the result of a different formulation:
[http://www.drugbuyers.com/freeboard/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showt...](http://www.drugbuyers.com/freeboard/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showthreaded/Number/312423/site_id/1)

------
DaniFong
I wonder how the memory recall is on that Quantum/String Theory book (the
elegant universe?)

Dr. Wozniak asserts that one of the primary functions of sleep is that of
memory consolidation, and I've found his arguments quite persuasive.

For more reading:

[http://www.supermemo.com/articles/sleep.htm#Physiological%20...](http://www.supermemo.com/articles/sleep.htm#Physiological%20function%20of%20sleep)

------
halo
[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/main.jhtml?xml=/health/200...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/main.jhtml?xml=/health/2004/01/06/hwake06.xml)
is one of the best articles I've ever read on modafinil and a much more
enjoyable comprehensive read on the same topic than the submitted article IMO.

------
mattmaroon
"I think it’s a stupid thing to do, because you shouldn’t ever take drugs you
don’t need."

Amen sister.

~~~
mrtron
Replace 'take drugs' with 'eat food', 'write software', 'go on runs', 'learn
skills'.

Now also define 'need'.

I think blanket statements like this are ignorant. The vast majority of the
population takes drugs they don't need, if you define drinking coffee/tea (for
caffeine) or smoking or drinking alcohol as taking drugs.

~~~
aaronblohowiak
Just because most people do it doesn't make it right.

Caffeine, nicotine and alcohol are drugs, anyone who says otherwise is kidding
themselves.

~~~
fallentimes
Just because the government says don't do it or people attach a blanket label
to them doesn't make it wrong either.

~~~
mattmaroon
Right or wrong is irrelevant. They're all bad for you when used frequently.
I'm pretty sure that's why the person who said that meant you shouldn't take
them, not for any moral reasons.

~~~
tdavis
"Bad" is subjective.

I drink caffeine to stay awake or to wake up; getting my work done is not
"bad" for me. I drink alcohol and smoke cigarettes because smoking is relaxing
and helps me concentrate and drinking... I won't get into that here. I
exercise because it makes me feel good. I eat healthy because I think non-junk
food just tastes better.

In my mind, all of these things are not "bad" for me. Some may be bad for my
physical health, but if physical health were humans' only consideration we
would all live in plastic bubbles and eat synthesized protein mash or
something. If somebody wants to take Provigil for 30 years and it effectively
doubles their productivity and concentration while at the end of which turning
their mind to mush, who are we to judge?

~~~
aaronblohowiak
Right, we should probably use "effective for N" or "inhibits X" instead of
good/bad, right/wrong.

Value judgments used to be effectiveness positions, wherin N and X were
assumed to be common among people (or at least were implied to be superior to
any dissenting view.)

------
sealedidentity
I am sorely tempted to try out these memory pills. Days used to be when I was
preparing to ace my SAT's that I used to take spirulina to flush the system.
These days, the designer pills have become more streamlined in their effects.
I just wish there's more research done on these drugs. Right now, I'm too
chicken to experiment with anything other than passive, non-endocrinal, CNR
non-reactive drugs.

------
mojuba
LSD is said to improve analytical abilities. The "improved state" can last
weeks or even months, although it is difficult to say if the change is
permanent or not, as some claim.

There is a conspiracy theory also, that this particular quality of LSD caused
its ban in 60s-70s.

(Actually, there is a legal substance with similar effects discovered not long
ago, and I thought it might be used in psychotherapy the same way LSD was used
before the ban.)

~~~
petercooper
> there is a legal substance

Which is..?

~~~
rms
Hey, shoot me an email, don't want to get into the discussion on this forum.

~~~
petercooper
Actually I misread your original post. I thought you were referring to a legal
drug with the thought-process benefits (but lacking the psychedelic effects)
rather than the psychedelic aspects alone.

I am familiar with a few legal psychedelics, but it's not something I'm
interested in :(

~~~
rms
Yeah... the thought process alteration is really the same as the psychedelic
effects. More so than visuals or anything, what the psychedelics do is
temporarily change the way you think and perceive reality.

------
byrneseyeview
Much much more of the same here:

<http://www.erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_Modafinil.shtml>

The quality of these reports is uneven, but the quantity should give you a
better sample (especially if you want to know what happens when you mix it
with Adderall, metadone, ecstasy, mushrooms, etc.)

------
k7lim
the author can improve this article greatly by learning how to spell the name
of the drug.

perhaps there are some side-effects that affect the ability to read and write.

------
mr_gunn
The article discussing modafinil were a little over-enthusiastic, I think.
It's more suited for people who have to say alert and watchful for long
periods of time, rather than people who need to make better decisions. It
would help night watchmen or troops on combat missions more than it would help
a scientist or software developer.

------
brentr
I find that I have the opposite problem: intense concentration and the ability
to stay up for long periods of time. I have to take Tylenol PM just to conform
to a normal sleep schedule. I don't know exactly what my natural bodily cycle
is, but it is definitely longer than 24 hours.

~~~
LogicHoleFlaw
There is a lot of natural variance in circadian rhythms. Mine is also much
longer than 24 hours. If I let myself go "free-running" then my sleep/wake
patterns cycle around 24 hours about once a month. The lengthened cycle is not
necessarily unhealthy but it makes it very difficult to conform to a 24-hour
schedule. If you have continued difficulty with your sleep cycle then talking
to a doctor specializing in sleep disorders might be a good idea. There are a
variety of options for dealing with the issue.

------
tarkin2
It all comes down to my former worry: don’t we need to strengthen the muscles
of our brains? Once our brains find strength largely unneeded, because of the
instant Provigil lift, then we’d surely become dependent on the drug.

------
lst
In 1st place, who is Viagra? Never seen her.

~~~
lst
BTW, I think PG is 'very happy' for finally having the 'V' word on the front
page...

------
crxnamja
cialias advertising.

if you can't find your girlriend, see alice.

------
ambition
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo_effect>

~~~
robg
He says it's been tested relative to placebo (I imagine only for its on-label
use).

~~~
ambition
Right. Assuming the Wikipedia article is to be believed, the results relative
to some of the effects he claimed were unsubstantial. A dramatic overall
effect on cognitive function was not found. In the article, he talked about
studying a textbook for hours straight, where he hadn't been able to do that
before. My accusation of placebo effect is not to say the drug is useless,
it's more against the specific claims such as that one in the article and
"worked for me" claims made in other comments on this thread.

In general, if do something expecting some effect, and you get that effect,
it's not something to talk about.

