
Porsche Taycan [video] - evo_9
https://fullycharged.show/episodes/porsche-taycan/
======
vvanders
Glad to see competition finally coming around.

That said I still wonder if they're holding back here to not cannibalize other
lines. The 0-60 in the 3.5s range is over a full second off Tesla's best and
for a performance brand seems like you want to be more in line with Tesla.

~~~
clouddrover
If you try to drive a Tesla Model S like a performance car it just overheats:

[https://www.thedrive.com/news/5207/this-video-reminds-us-
tha...](https://www.thedrive.com/news/5207/this-video-reminds-us-that-the-
tesla-model-s-is-an-awful-track-car)

[https://jalopnik.com/heres-what-a-tesla-model-s-can-do-
aroun...](https://jalopnik.com/heres-what-a-tesla-model-s-can-do-around-the-
nurburgrin-1600644908)

Here's a Model S losing to a Nissan Leaf over 14 laps:

[https://insideevs.com/news/359903/video-nissan-leaf-beats-
te...](https://insideevs.com/news/359903/video-nissan-leaf-beats-tesla-
model-s/)

Porsche doesn't want to be in line with that.

~~~
steelframe
Oops, you've accidentally presented hard facts criticizing Tesla in a tech
forum and have been summarily downvoted!

Tesla's ludicrous launch is a party trick. It produces a number to prop up a
marketing blurb. "Fastest production car ever!" Tesla has been doing the same
sort of thing with "Safest car ever!" to the point that NHTSA recently sent
Tesla a cease-and-desist letter over misleading statements about the Model 3′s
safety rating.

The devil really is in the details though. A properly engineered drivetrain
will be able to sustain its launches over several back-to-back activations.
This is precisely what the Porsche team has accomplished. The machines they
ship will hit a number, and then they will hit that number again, and again,
and again, and again. And that won't fade. It won't destroy the battery. It
won't get nerfed with an over-the-air update a couple of months after hitting
the market.

This is what automotive engineering excellence looks like, and it's great to
finally see it in an electric vehicle.

~~~
endorphone
"Tesla's ludicrous launch is a party trick."

I live in a rural exurb area. Every spring-fall weekend features parades of
supercars of the various supercar clubs. Million dollar plus vehicles. All
driving at 60km, driving no differently than the Corolla that accidentally
turned into their procession. Because it's all party tricks. These people
aren't racing these cars, but are just sitting on _potential_.

As an aside, I don't remember Tesla ever claiming that their vehicles were the
"fastest production car", which is normally a measure of top speed. The Tesla
has a positively mediocre top speed compared to supercars, and on any longer
run will be demolished. It isn't built for repeat launches, or a quick lap at
Nürburgring.

But if you want a very confident merge on the highway, pass on the single lane
highway, etc, it can confidently provide what you need.

As an aside, _all_ lithium ion batteries are degraded by high drain (similarly
they are degraded by fast charging). Porsche is seeming buying the exact same
technology in LG packs. They have identical issues that Tesla does. If you
launch a P100d _without_ ludicrous mode you'll do 0-60 in 2.9 seconds.

~~~
nullwasamistake
High drain isn't the problem, most lithium ion can be drained at 15-50C (drain
rate not temperature) until empty without being harmed.

P100D is 100kw/h battery, which should be able to put out at least 1500 hp
continuously.

The problem is 100% Tesla's cooling system not being powerful enough.

~~~
davidgould
Not all lithium ion can be drained at high rates like that. There is a trade
off of safety, lifetime, energy density and power density (discharge rate).
For instance the RC helicopter batteries are rated for 100C+, but are
notorious for fires and short life time. As it happens, the RC photo drones
are easier on the batteries and want longer run times so there are batteries
that have higher energy density but can only handle 20C. A lot of e-bike packs
are built from 1650 batteries and these are best off when limited to 3C. I'd
imagine the priorities of a car battery are similar.

------
pmcollins
It has a two-speed transmission, which should help with high-speed
performance. [https://insideevs.com/news/343827/porsche-taycan-2-speed-
rea...](https://insideevs.com/news/343827/porsche-taycan-2-speed-rear-
transaxle-performance-modeled/)

But one of the advantages of an electric car for me is the possibility of no
(variable) transmission. I don't want clutches that are constantly wearing
down as I drive. For me this is not about money or maintenance headaches, but
about elegance.

~~~
davewritescode
Running electrical engines at lower speed should in theory reduce wear,
especially at autobahn type speeds.

If you’ve ever driven an electric performance car one of the most
disappointing things is comparing 30–90 vs 0-60. Arguably the latter is more
important because the typical on-ramp is generally 30 mph and highway traffic
around me is traveling at 75+

~~~
rconti
Disappointing, and 30-90? Nah. Even my RWD non-performance Model 3 with only
250hp or thereabouts 'feels' faster than my 300HP Golf R did from, say,
70-100mph. I admit, it absolutely feels relatively "out of breath", so to
speak, above 95mph, but that's nothing HP can't solve.

I'm not saying there's no need, ever for a multi-speed transmission in an EV,
but for 99% of the vehicles, it's likely pointless.

~~~
MegaButts
Do you like the Model 3 more than the Golf R?

~~~
rconti
That depends on what you mean. My knee jerk reaction is, no, I don't. But
they're different cars for different purposes for me (as an enthusiast). I
sold the R around the time we bought the Tesla because the only thing we
needed less than 1 $40k car is 2 $40k cars. (We've got 4 cars at the moment,
though I'm currently at CarMax trying to get rid of one of them).

The Model 3 is the first appliance car I've owned. But I went into this eyes
wide open; it was the right decision at the time and it's still the right
decision. The R I basically stopped driving when I got a new job where I biked
to work for a year. The Model 3 was a replacement for my wife's 175k mile
Subaru, and we bought it immediately after my company was acquired and we
started carpooling together. The 3 is a better commuter/appliance more suited
to 2 drivers who trade off, cheaper to run, gives us HOV lane access on the
rare occasion where one of us drives solo, and my wife hadn't driven stick
since she lived in Australia many years ago so she didn't really show interest
in driving the R.

The R was my (other) fun car, with all the euro goodies on it. It was
fantastic everyday runabout, fun car, roadtrip machine that could eat miles
like nobody's business. The 3 is, again, an appliance. I don't really like
sedans, but I wanted an EV, and I like Teslas, but could never justify
spending the coin for an S.

Given infinite money and space, I'd still have the R, too. Though I'd probably
never drive it, because it's so easy and convenient to just hop in the Tesla
and go, any time, anywhere. It never has to warm up, it never needs me to stop
at the gas station before I run my errands, hell, I don't even need a key.

~~~
davidgould
A good set of performance tires really wakes up a 3. Try a set of Michelin
Pilot Sport A/S 3+, (or 4S if you never see snow). I rented a 3 LR RWD for a
few days and decided not to buy, but then drove the Performance and had to
have it. Yeah, the brutal acceleration was part of it, but the biggest
difference is how much sharper the handling is. And this is mostly down to the
squashy super efficient tires on the base models masking the capability of the
car.

~~~
MegaButts
While this is good advice in general, this literally applies to every
performance car (and even every car period). The Model 3 isn't unique in
benefitting from better tires any more than a Golf R.

Also, the A/S 3+ is an obvious compromise for people that don't want to rotate
their tires seasonally. If you're going to recommend tires for performance,
the PS4S is a good choice and then get a separate set of tires for winter. In
other words if you think the tires make a difference like you wrote, you're
selling yourself short driving on all season tires. Do yourself a favor and
buy a set of summer tires if you're serious about how your car performs.

------
tyfon
I think this is the first car that is nearing the 2013 tesla model s.

I'm also curious about the rapid charge, it was supposed to be 350 afaik but
is launching with 150ish only (not 250 as in the web page) and will be
increased with software updates in the next few years.

I think if they put a proper infotainment system with a big screen like tesla,
give free map/system updates and it doesn't suck in efficiency it might
actually sell a bit more than etron and i-pace.

However looking at it... it reminds me of a frog, so maybe not..

~~~
lazyjones
> _it might actually sell a bit more than etron and i-pace._

That's not really hard... Both these models aren't really selling well.

~~~
tyfon
They're selling better than the model x in Norway so far in 2019. For me
personally they have too short range and too little space but there is a
certain segment that want a "real" electric car made by an encumbered
manufacturer. I used to be one of them until I saw the specs of the i-pace and
etron.

------
countryqt30
Huge fan of this -- will definitely replace my Tesla for this car!

~~~
outericky
By the time they are available, your Tesla will likely be due to replaced
anyway. But here's to the future, fellow EV'er.

~~~
kylec
Deliveries of the Taycan start this year

~~~
outericky
ok. Deliveries of the model 3 started in 2017. But it took a while to reach
critical mass. And some countries still haven't gotten them.

EDIT: "Prices for this ‘Turbo’ launch model will be around £130,000 with
cheaper/slower versions kicking off around £65,000 within 18 months of the
car’s launch in late 2019. "

So... maybe we'll see some in 2019, but really it's 2021 before more than a
few thousand hit the market.

~~~
hef19898
I would assume Porsche to be able to launch a car with an equivalent of
production hell, so.

~~~
xedeon
The big question would be where will they source all of those batteries?

~~~
felixbraun
"VW secures US$25B in battery supplies in electric-car surge"
[https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/vw-secures-25-billion-battery-
su...](https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/vw-secures-25-billion-battery-supplies-in-
electric-car-surge-1.1025335)

"Volkswagen will invest almost 1 billion euros ($1.1 billion) in battery cell
production at a facility in western Germany"
[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-
electric/volks...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-
electric/volkswagen-to-make-batteries-in-germany-slim-down-idUSKCN1SJ1PU)

~~~
xedeon
Cool, I read those a while back. Where will be the the factory located at and
when is the ETA for completion? Have they broke ground yet?

------
wrycoder
I got as far as $130,000.

Edit: £

~~~
WhompingWindows
Given the extremely limited numbers they'll be putting out, I'd be surprised
if that price point was too high. Seems that Tesla has the 45-100k range well
covered, but they don't have a sports car variant and that's why I think a
limited volume 130k is decent idea for Porsche to get its feet wet.

------
ratsbane
A bit late to this thread, but here's a response by the owner of a Model 3
Performance edition to the Taycan video: [https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-
model-3-performance-31-hard-...](https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-
model-3-performance-31-hard-launches-video)

------
pencal
just by the looks of it, this already beats the ugly Tesla

~~~
outericky
Not everyone likes the look of a Porsche either. But thanks for the opinion.

Here's to taking more ICE cars off the road. A world of quiet, zero emissions
cars on the road sounds good to me. The sooner everyone can get their hands on
one, the better.

~~~
brokenmachine
I was keen for the quiet car future as well, but now they're adding buzzers to
them when traveling less than 30kph. Bleah.

------
myrandomcomment
So I want this with a drop top and 2 seats, so basically a Boxster. Let us see
who gets there first with a proper roadster. Tesla or Porsche. I will be the
first in line. Yes it is a stupid use of money, but the inter teenage boy does
not care.

------
bitL
Is the original Tesla founder who was ousted by Elon somehow involved in this?
I remember he went to VW afterwards...

~~~
seltzered_
You're thinking of Martin Eberhard, from
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Eberhard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Eberhard):

"In 2010, Martin Eberhard confirmed to Autoblog Green that he was doing work
with Volkswagen, but no further details have been provided [...] Later, he
worked at Lucid Motors, a startup funded by LeEco and others which was created
to compete with Tesla, until 2015 [...] In 2017, Eberhard founded inEVit in a
bid to supply major OEMs with electric drivetrains and power storage
solutions. [...] In October, 2017, Eberhard joined Sokon Industry Group when
that company acquired Inevit. This branch was renamed SF Motors."

------
joshu
i’m curious how he could feel torque vectoring in a straight line....

------
ratsbane
It all looks very nice, but is it just a copy of the Model 3 with a few
upgraded bits (air suspension) and twice the price?

Also, the interior seemed very dark - maybe just the pre-production version
hiding some details or I'm just used to the glass Model 3 roof.

Nice to see more manufacturers getting serious about this obvious electric-car
future.

~~~
GhostVII
I mean it's a copy of the Model 3 in the same sense that a Porsche 911 is a
copy of a BMW 3 series.

~~~
ratsbane
Disputing your statement...

The 911 was first produced in 1963 with an air-cooled flat 6 engine mounted
aft of the rear axle.

The 3 series, first produced in 1975, is a front-engine car with a water-
cooled straight-4 and -6 (most commonly) water-cooled engine mounted in front.

So the first 911 was made twelve years before the first 3 series, is
structured completely differently and has completely different engine
technology.

The Model 3 was released 2-3 years before the Taycan is expected out, and has
essentially the same layout: floor battery with front and rear electric motors
mounted in about the same spots. They both have four doors with the same deep
swoop down of the roof over the rear seats, flattened hoods that dip below the
line of the fenders, etc.

The Taycan looks more like a Model 3 than any other electric car around, and
since the Model 3 came first, it's reasonable to describe the Taycan in Model
3 terms.

It's a good design, functionally and aesthetically, and I'm certainly not
faulting Porsche for these design choices. I've owned a 911 before and I've
always appreciated Porsches - they have made many great cars, and the Taycan
might well be another one. I hope that it is. But it does look a lot like a
Model 3.

~~~
GhostVII
I just don't really see any similarity between the model 3 and the Taycan
other than them both being electric, they are completely different classes of
cars. They have the same layout because that is the most obvious layout for a
4 door AWD electric car (i-pace has same layout too). The Taycan is a luxury
sports car with good handling and the ability to run at full performance for a
long time. The model 3 is a practical car with a fairly poor interior, poor
handling, and great acceleration and range.

~~~
ratsbane
Model 3 handling has been almost universally praised as superb. I haven't read
any negative reviews of it.

I have almost 40,000 miles on a Model 3 and from my personal experience with
it and with other cars I've owned, including hundreds of thousands of miles on
Porsche and Mercedes, the Model 3 handles the best. Air suspension will, I
expect, give the Taycan a slight edge, but other than that, there's no magic
dust that Porsche can sprinkle to make their car any different. Just putting
the massive weight of the battery on the floor is enough to give both cars a
big advantage over any ICE car.

You mention that the cars are in different classes - the only class that they
don't share is price. The Porsche is predicted to cost between 2x and 3x the
price of the Model 3. They're of comparable weight, size, power output,
layout, etc.

You mention that the Model 3 has a poor interior - again, unless you work for
Porsche or otherwise have access to as-yet unreleased photos, there are no
released images of the Taycan interior. How can you know the interior is
better? The Model 3 interior is simple, clean, and spartan, but I like it
better than the E-class I drove before the Tesla. When I go back to the
E-class, it feels fussy and baroque in comparison.

We know how advanced the Model 3 self-driving is, and it's constantly
improving with frequent updates. It's really quite good. Will the Taycan be
better? Perhaps, but at this point Tesla has had hundreds of millions of
driving data to refine their approach and Porsche has not. Even if Porsche
outsources from someone with much more experience, such as MobileEye. They're
unlikely to be much better than Tesla. All of Porsche's money and many years
of racing successes can't make software development suddenly leap ahead.

Finally, Porsche, in this video, is pushing the ability to run at "full
performance" for a long time. That video, while very nice, didn't give any
facts and figures about what that means. Tesla's had ten years and several
generations of drivetrains to work out the kinks, including the overheating
problems during track time of older Model S cars. When the Taycan is finally
out and people can independently compare the two cars, I'll be interested to
see of the Taycan is significantly better, but before that happens there's no
reason to think that it will be.

Let it be resolved, then, that the Model 3 and the Taycan are in exactly the
same class in every area except for price. I hope the Taycan is a great car
and I'm sure it will be.

