
My Immigration Story - isalmon
http://ilyasemin.com/immigration/
======
DigitalSea
This was a great read and hits close to home for me. Not many people realise
that getting a visa to live and work in the USA is extremely difficult, if not
possible.

I recently did some contracting work for a US based startup. I am based in
Australia and the startup was in Seattle. I am in this weird area because I am
self-taught and have no college/university degree and fall just under the 12
years required experience to substitute for a degree. The rule is 3 years of
proven work experience for every year of a standard 4 year degree. So no visas
applied to me I could apply for.

I eventually just took a remote contracting position with the company and flew
over for the maximum 3 month stay and travelled around. During my time there I
encountered a lot of taxi/Uber drivers who immigrated from various countries
and nothing personally against them, but I have a unique skillset that this
startup was looking for and was struggling to find themselves and yet it is
impossible for me to travel and work in the USA? Once again no offence or ill-
will, but how is it possible for someone to move to the USA to drive a cab,
but a developer can't actually get a job in the US? Kind of perplexing.

Supposedly the US values highly skilled jobs, but it seems they only class
professions like a lawyer, doctor or some other profession that requires an
extended period of study as highly skilled. For software development maybe
considered highly skilled, but not so much front-end development/Javascript.

Comparatively, Canada make it easy to obtain a work/stay visa for an initial
period of 2 years and I believe you can keep extending it. You don't need any
academic qualifications or jump through any massive hurdles. Why is the US
like this, especially with a close ally country like Australia? It's the same
story in the UK, if not, you get even more scrutiny trying to get into the UK
for work. But as the author writes, the skilled immigration problem seems to
be affect people from everywhere.

~~~
throwaway9324
When it comes to visas everyone wants to be special. Unfortunately the
international recognized way of being special is having a bachelors degree. If
that wasn't a requirement it would probably be even harder skilled workers to
get visas. It sounds like if you work a couple of more years you can apply for
an E-2 visa and hopefully avoid the H1-B lottery. That is not a bad position
to be in. Considering the outlook for someone wanting to immigrate to the US
to drive a cab I wouldn't be very bothered by that either.

~~~
honest_joe
BC degree is a bullshit you can literally buy it in many countries. By buying
i mean you pay for tuition and you visit the school for 2 years and then you
get a degree. But not only is that very expensive for most of the people in
post-soviet countries but also worthless.

They will not teach you anything useful. Not even when you apply for CS. They
exploit the post-soviet system.

And there are many good people in these countries. Not exceptional, not 1% of
mathematicians,physicists or ninja programmers but better than the average.
Yet they did not get a chance.

~~~
ceasarby
Actually if we talk about post-Soviet countries some degrees there have value.
They teach physics and math really good, otherwise, why would there be so many
talented Russian, Belarusian, Ukrainian programmers? When it comes to social
studies, economics, law, not so much, but if someone got degree from place
like MFTI it's probably gives that person more credit that degree from average
US university.

~~~
vargalas
I agree. Post Soviet countries had really good education. My Hungarian Bsc
level maths/cs degree was way more difficult than my UK masters or my second
masters in Belgium. You needed to learn and you had to think, not only buff
back the knowledge. Also the competition was quite high. Still, the
universities of my masters' are in the top 200 and the Hungarian university is
not in the top 500. Well, that's life. But I still was not able to get a visa
(to be ontopic).

------
rglullis
Ok, for others who might be interested in immigrating, a few other things that
I learned from my experience:

\- If you already are done with your studies, look for jobs at educational
institutions. Universities, research laboratories, think tanks. They are
exempt from the quota and can hire at any time of the year and outside of the
quota.

There a few downsides. First, most of the openings at these institutions will
require some kind of grad school. Second, these institutions are not known for
paying the same salaries as big name companies in Silicon Valley. Third, you
can not transfer the visa to another company, so if you get an offer from
another company that does not share the quota-exempt status, you are back in
the position of waiting until April and hoping the new employer doesn't fuck
up the application and that there aren't 10 gazillion other applicants from
IBM, Google, Infosys, Tata and the like.

\- One hack: consider first moving to Canada. Their immigration laws are much
saner in the US and are more merit- and qualification-based than the US. With
a simple job offer you can get a resident visa in Canada. After 2 years as a
resident you can apply for citizenship. And Canadian citizens can work in the
US, under the TN visa.

With this you avoid all the crap about the H1B lottery and have a stronger
position to work in the US after ~3 years. If I ever plan to be in the US
again in the next 3-5 years, I would actually move to Montreal first.

~~~
wooyi
+1 on the Canada hack. Canada now has an "Express Entry" process for skilled
workers that grants permanent residence in months 6 months or less.
[http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/express/express-
entry...](http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/express/express-entry.asp)

However, applying for a Work Permit is still rather cumbersome (which is
typically the first step after the job offer and before Express Entry) I just
went through this process with an employee. While there is no arbitrary quota,
the process does take between 3-6 months.

But overall the path to citizenship is much shorter than in the US.

And Canada has public healthcare. So, no need to worry about healthcare while
you're self employed.

~~~
cdhdc
It will take 6 months before you're covered by a provinces health plan.

------
neverminder
This is why I ended up in London - to me it's the next best thing. Being an EU
citizen I have equal rights here and employers can't lowball my salary,
because they have no such leverage like they do in US with H1-B visa. There's
nothing immigration-related looming over my head and working hours are better
than in US (from what I hear), so I have plenty of time for starting my own
gig on the side initially when I'm ready for it.

The irony is that you can get to US if you have a million to invest (if that
hasn't changed yet), but if you have already made it this far, going to US
kind of defeats the purpose - "If I can make it there, I'm gonna make it
anywhere".

~~~
kokey
While it's relatively easy for people with an EU passport to move to the UK,
the work permit system is just as bad as the H1-B visa system. It's capped at
around 20000 applicants per year.

For those with good English and tech skills without an EU passport, Dublin is
a fairly good option. The work permit system is reasonable and the demand for
skills is quite strong. There are also a lot of US companies with operations
in Dublin, which opens the possibility for an L1 visa to get to the US.

I think UK companies should also consider setting up offices in Dublin, so
they can get access to talent they can transfer to the UK using the intra
company transfer visa, similar to companies in the US having offices in
Canada.

~~~
necrodawg
There are quite a few international companies with satellite offices in Dublin
for this reason, even if they have offices elsewhere in Europe. :)

------
toadi
End of the the 90's dreamed of moving to US and even got a possibility. By the
time I was ready to it the first dot com bubble bursted.

To be quite honest I only knew US from the movies. Following news and recent
developments I'm quite hesitant to move over there. Cops shooting people,
riots, NSA tracking,...

My romantic view when I just started working in the dot com boom of US that
bubble bursted. This doesn't mean I don't like the US. There are many good
things also. In any country there are good and bad things. But I think there
are other places maybe as good as the US which are worth exploring.

~~~
drcross
I used to be the same but after spending 8 months there the food is better in
Europe, your quality of life is generally higher, lower working hours and the
government system is one that I wouldn't want to support.

------
petea
Immigration reform for skilled workers will almost certainly not happen as
long as Democrats continue to lump in amnesty for millions of illegal
immigrants in the same immigration reform bill.

This might not be a popular opinion to spout, but I can't see it any other
way. These illegals will almost certainly vote for Democrats. How do you
expect Republicans to cooperate to welcome educated workers when you are
expecting Republicans to commit political suicide?

US as a whole will hugely benefit from making the immigration process easier
for educated workers like many other countries have done (Canada, UK, Germany,
Australia etc), but this doesn't seem possible under current political
climate.

~~~
maxerickson
Is there much evidence that non citizens are participating in US elections?
I'm sure there are a few people doing it illegally, I mean evidence of 1,000
or 10,000 or 100,000 or millions or whatever it might be.

~~~
gyardley
No, but he's referring to the eventual consequences of an amnesty for illegal
immigrants, which would convert them to legal green card holders. After five
years of permanent residency, you can naturalize and vote.

He probably should've written 'these _former_ illegals' to be clearer.

~~~
maxerickson
Given the partisan drum thumping around the issue, I wouldn't want to guess
what someone meant.

(example: [http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/feb/12/obama-
amnest...](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/feb/12/obama-amnesty-
creates-loophole-for-illegal-immigra/?page=1) )

------
bayesianhorse
Most immigration laws are "stupid" in a lot of ways. It's even stupider when
you think about the fact, that specialized and highly skilled jobs are
actually harder to work in for immigrants.

Yes, theoretically, the U.S. immigration law (and many other countries', too)
favors highly skilled jobs. In practice however, it is far easier for low
skilled workers to just overstay a visa. In 2012, the U.S. paid $18 billion to
try and enforce immigration laws. Still, there are anywhere between 7 and 30
million illegal immigrants in the country, despite all the effort.

Billions for law enforcement, not a penny for social services...

~~~
fijal
agreed that most immigration laws are stupid and annoying, but yet US is
particularly bad. They're thorough, picky and the requirements are really
high. It's also quite expensive

------
sneak
All of this because of the fictional concept of where you were born playing a
part in the person you presently are.

This idea of being property of a state (other people) who is responsible for
you and to whom you are indebted is madness.

Open the borders and stop this idiocy.

~~~
ommunist
@sneak - you have probably been born into another illusion, the idea that you
are free and independent. Now tell me -- where does the money come from?

~~~
bayesianhorse
Philosophers and Economists have battled on that question for centuries now...

~~~
ommunist
Haha, yup. I am just reading Metzinger's "The Ego Tunnel" which contains the
latest research on the subject.

------
pshin45
What interesting timing - I'm organizing an Immigration-themed hackathon[1]
this weekend in SF, and on Saturday morning we'll have a speaking panel called
"Immigrant Founder Stories" where founders from 4 startups (big to small) will
share about their struggles to gain permanent status in the US, and how it
affected them as entrepreneurs.

\- Laks Srini, Co-founder & CTO at Zenefits [2]

\- Tri Tran, Co-founder & CEO at Munchery [3]

\- Silver Keskküla, Co-founder at Teleport (ex-Skype) [4]

\- Nikhil Aitharaju, Co-founder at Tint [5]

[1] [http://www.up.co/communities/usa/san-francisco/startup-
weeke...](http://www.up.co/communities/usa/san-francisco/startup-weekend/5961)
(Use promo code "hn" for 70% off)

[2] [http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/24/technology/workers-in-
sili...](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/24/technology/workers-in-silicon-
valley-weigh-in-on-obamas-immigration-order.html)

[3] [https://medium.com/@munchery/pitch-your-
life-2f170eab933b](https://medium.com/@munchery/pitch-your-life-2f170eab933b)

[4] [https://medium.com/@keskkyla/good-luck-being-born-
tomorrow-d...](https://medium.com/@keskkyla/good-luck-being-born-tomorrow-
dedcfee3728)

[5] [https://app.fwd.us/stories/259](https://app.fwd.us/stories/259)

------
bruceb
Jeb Bush and Hillary Clinton favor amnesty that encourages illegal immigration
while million of people are waiting to come to the US and high skilled
immigrants jump through hoops.

------
tosseraccount
US Middle Class real median household income DOWN :
[https://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/MEHOINUSA672N](https://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/MEHOINUSA672N)

Cost of employees as percentage of sales down :
[http://www.philosophicaleconomics.com/2015/05/profit-
margins...](http://www.philosophicaleconomics.com/2015/05/profit-margins-in-a-
winner-take-all-economy/) Specifically :
[http://i2.wp.com/www.philosophicaleconomics.com/wp-
content/u...](http://i2.wp.com/www.philosophicaleconomics.com/wp-
content/uploads/2015/05/ae3a.jpg?resize=640%2C362)

 _labor bargaining power has weakened substantially amid globalization_

US citizens not as enthusiastic about more immigration as are the US elite:
[http://www.cnbc.com/id/100593528](http://www.cnbc.com/id/100593528)

 _as recently as 2012, 69 percent of those surveyed agree that "we should
restrict and control people coming to live in our country more than we do
now."_

The MSM often only presents one side of the story.

There is NO evidence of US labor shortage. In fact, with stagnant to down real
labor prices, the only logical conclusion is that there is a glut.

Corporate and Academic control of more and more guest worker visas is not
really a great idea.

------
akramhussein
Oh man. You really didn't give up, kudos to that. It is such a painful
process. I've had a mixed bag of experiences too and just decided to focus on
what I have in London and maybe it would work out later but wouldn't get my
hopes up. Yahoo cancelled my last round interview because there wasn't enough
time to submit for H1-B if I passed :/

For comparison, in the 80's when my father got a job at the FDA, it was
signed, sealed, delivered and my family moved in just a few months in the mid
of the year, well before all this became so complex. Kicker is I got a
Greencard before we moved back, but unfortunately I was too young to realise
what this meant or do anything about it...and it expired.

------
aduitsis
Kudos to Ilya, I love it when it ends successfully.

It is kind of ironic though that eventually he got the Green Card via the DV
lottery. Had he been fired without that, it would have been a very difficult
stretch to get a job within 30 days.

------
bane
Through my wife (a Korean immigrant), I've learned about how hard immigration
to the U.S. is. We have our own insane story and the short of it is that
immigration is an absolute mess.

Considering how many smart and hard working people I've met who came here for
college, and considering the outsized success the ones who managed to
immigrate here have had, it seems kind of insane that we don't do more to keep
them here. The lost tax revenue I can think of from personal connections alone
is in the millions of dollars per year -- imagine how much economic activity
that is!

------
htaway2577235
It is technically possible for H-1Bs to start their own companies, but the
barriers to this are very high, and it's still a very rare option. There was a
memo released a couple years back that changed the rules:
[http://www.murthy.com/2012/12/17/entrepreneur-h1b-petitions-...](http://www.murthy.com/2012/12/17/entrepreneur-h1b-petitions-
a-new-option-for-start-up-companies/)

~~~
sologoub
Interesting, but still rather convoluted and will definitely require costly
legal representation.

US could definitely use some sort of medium-length work visa for startups (as
opposed to small businesses/traditional companies).

The distinction between startup (or a company in a desirable industry/sector
the country wishes to have more of) versus just any business is important to
both stimulate growth and also be a selling point to nay-sayers.

------
abhiv
Great story. Very impressed by your persistence and creativity, and
congratulations on your success.

I think the concept of employers applying for a green card for employees is
fundamentally broken. It pits the interests of the employer directly against
the employee, since it's in the employer's interest to drag out the process
for as long as possible, and reduces job mobility (which brings down wages for
everyone) because the green card process needs to be restarted if employees
switch jobs midway, before the I-485 step.

A system where any legally employed foreign worker can file for a green card
for themselves seems much more sane.

Anecdotally, it seems to me that wages for H-1B visa holders are only lower
when the employer files for a visa for an employee who is outside of the
country. In my experience as a student who went the F-1 -> H-1B route,
salaries are the same whether or not you have an H-1B. The much wider set of
employers that you can interview with when you are already in the country
probably makes it infeasible for employers to pay their H-1B employees who
were already in the US under a different visa less than employees who don't
need a visa.

~~~
isalmon
I think you got lucky. Most people that I knew who were on H-1b were getting
much less than green card holders of US citizens. I don't have a substantial
amount of data on this of course.

------
npachisia
Ilya, great story that many of us can relate with. Stories like these (very
similar to our personal stories) were the inspiration behind Unshackled. Our
goal is to help entrepreneurs / startup teams who are held back from building
great companies simply because of their visa. While we couldn’t help you (coz
we didnt exist), Unshackled aims to make an impact for many other brilliant
people like you. #innovate

------
ommunist
I admire the consistency of Ilya's efforts. The US despite claiming the policy
of sucking out best Russian brains in reality fails to provide the backing
policy for that, and Ilya's story shows very good example. When it comes to
software development, I believe the US as a framework, does not really want
devs to come and wants to keep them remotely.

------
userulluipeste
Interesting read. I have a somewhat provocative question currently roaming
trough my mind - you said that you "really appreciate the opportunity this
country gave" to you (which is nice, BTW, but that's from a patient frame),
considering now all what you've paid and what you're giving (i.e. from an
actor frame), do they deserve you?

~~~
isalmon
Absolutely. This country gave me more than I gave it back (yet).

------
sireat
Fantastic read, but the punchline is almost like that anecdote about how to
make million dollars (you know the one about buying apple for 5 cents
polishing it and selling it for 10 cents until the rich uncle dies).

The fastest way to green card in US is genius visa, but you need the
credentials to pull it off. It has a ridiculously high acceptance rate I think
about 90 %.

------
phamilton
As a developer in the Bay Area, I find our lot to be pretty picky about where
we work and what we work on. Acquihire "Golden Handcuffs" make us miserable.
(What a terrible problem to have, right?) I admire Ilya's persistence in
working for $8/hr because he had to. It lends a bit of perspective to hear his
story. Thank you, Ilya!

------
YourOwn
Hi, I am part of a team of three immigrants in the US building an app to help
people settle in a new country (initially, the US).

Like Mint.com, Credit Karma, or TurboTax for immigrants, YourOwn.com provides
an interactive, gamified tool, with customized action plans and to-do lists,
budgets, reminders, community support, and step-by-step guides that help
immigrants quickly and easily establish a home of their own in a new country.
Our first site will help people move to the US, then we will add other
countries. Have a look at [http://yourown.com](http://yourown.com) \- we will
soon launch, by invitation only. Thanks!

------
nish1500
As someone who is new to understand the process, it baffles me to see how
incredibly hard it is to immigrate to the US, as an entrepreneur. Some of the
biggest new tech companies are founded by immigrants. I often wonder how they
got into the country in the first place.

The system rewards those under H1B. There is no provision for entrepreneurs.
Being a college dropout entrepreneur, from a non-caucasian country, what
chance do I have?

I am reading Peter Thiel's book Zero to One. He talks about hidden injustices
in our society. This is what comes to mind.

------
kushti
It seems the author spent a lot of time messing with a horrible bureaucracy.
Is it an article against the corrupted system written in so elegant manner?

~~~
isalmon
I would not call it corrupted. I would probably call it ineffective.

------
sprite
As mentioned in the article another option is EB-5 investment visa. You need
approximately $600k ($500k investment + budget another $100k for regional
center fees, lawyer fees, etc). The process is still super slow though, the
current average processing time for I-526 application is currently 14 months.
I submitted mine in January and was told best case scenario is around 8 months
for approval.

------
zura
If you're not after investors money in SV and plan to just bootstrap your
business, what are the advantages of moving to US?

~~~
jakozaur
Advantages: Huge density of talent, capital, entrepreneurship, potential
clients. E.g. there are regular meetups about every niche technology, where
you can validate idea/find initial clients. Even if you bootstrap, you
indirectly benefit from your clients having VC money.

Disadvantages: Cost are huge, competition on talent is ultra intense. E.g. if
you move from Spain, you need to spend incredible energy and time to get
through visa pain.

Is it worth it? Depends on your case. IMO bootstrapping, not so much. VC heavy
business, likely yes.

------
segmondy
Amazing story, it's not even the immigration process that caught my eyes, but
how you knew exactly what you wanted, kept at it, once you had the chance, you
made the move, and 3 years later, you pay more in taxes than you can ever earn
working for someone else while employing 30+ others. Bravo!

------
nobullet
Congratulations with DV lottery! :)

~~~
isalmon
Thanks. I really got lucky.

~~~
redmaverick
nice story! How did you get your first few clients/customers. Did you get
investor funding for Datanyze?

~~~
isalmon
It was bootstrapped to a pretty significant (>$1m) revenue and then we raised
some money. I'll write about it one day - another crazy story.

~~~
vargalas
I'm looking forward to reading it. Your visa story is well-written.

------
outworlder
> I talked to several lawyers and all of them told me that I’d get into
> trouble if I incorporate a company in the US

Wow, I never knew that. I would never have expected it to matter, since you
can incorporate a company in the US while not being in the US, no problem.

~~~
sancha_
Without a US citizenship?

~~~
sireat
US is actually quite a bit of a tax heaven for non US citizens.

It is easy to incorporate in US and there are various advantages to sheltering
your non US generated assets in US. Simple example, think of all those shell
corps owning apartments in Manhattan.

I am not sure if FATCA bites back US on this front.

------
Oras
I enjoyed every line of your story, to be honest I was surprised when I read
"my wife" with all this tough work you could still have your own life.

~~~
isalmon
It would not have been possible without her :)

------
liperuf
i'm very impressed by your persistence. congratulations.

nowadays, do you encourage or employ people in same situation as you were?

~~~
isalmon
Yes we have a couple of H-1b employees and we are starting to process their
green cards now. We also look for people who are willing to take any
internship opportunities just like I did back in the days.

~~~
liperuf
nice to hear that!

------
sonabinu
Skill based immigration and subsequent green card is a story in patience and
perseverance. This is a great write-up!

~~~
shas3
_Patience and perseverance_ is a perverse way of stating it. There are
numerous serious problems:

1\. Spouse is prohibited from seeking employment unless he gets his own work
visa

2\. 8 year wait for green card for skilled workers born in India

3\. Gaming of the system by Indian outsourcing companies

4\. The system (tying visa to employer and procedural inflexibility in
transferring it) is such that it indirectly makes the visa-holder indentured
to the company

5\. Near-blind lottery system that favors outsourcing companies which apply
for work-visas in the thousands (at which point, the lottery is a statistical
bet for the company).

6\. Near-blind lottery system that is heavily tilted against specialized (with
a higher degree, for example) skilled employees who are critical to companies:
if such a person loses in the lottery, the employer and the employee stand to
lose a lot unlike outsourcing companies which operate on a sort of 'wholesale'
basis.

------
mcgin
Great read, I spent years trying to sort out a US visa but gave up in the end,
kudos for your determination!

~~~
isalmon
Thanks. Where did you end up?

------
aliakhtar
Didn't Obama introduce a startup visa a few months ago? What happened to it?

~~~
sparkzilla
The most recent article I saw on it [1] says that "within the year" Obama is
likely to sign an executive order that allows for the founders of funded
startups to get visas, dependent on the amount of funds raised. If you raise
$200,000 from a qualified U.S. investor you will get a two-year
entrepreneurship visa to come live in America. If you raise $750,000 or more
from a qualified U.S. investor or group of investors, you will get a green
card. As someone who would benefit from this action, it can't come soon
enough.

[1] [http://www.forbes.com/sites/karstenstrauss/2015/04/08/how-
ob...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/karstenstrauss/2015/04/08/how-obama-could-
spark-an-international-migration-of-startups/)

~~~
isalmon
I don't think raising money should be an indicator here though. For example,
we bootstrapped the company till about $1M in ARR, and I know a lot of great
startup that were 100% bootstrapped.

~~~
sparkzilla
In that case you should be able to get an E-2 treaty investor visa fairly
easily.

------
rakedbmigrate
Nice write-up!

What will your advice to someone with similar aspiration from a third world
country?

~~~
vjankov
Not OP but I've been on an F1 for 7 years and I'm currently applying for an
H1B, but I don't think I was selected in this round.

Anyways, the easiest way would to be enroll in a US university. Most grad
programs in STEM will give you significant financial aid if not completely
paid tuition. Another way is just applying for a job with a big international
corporation and eventually they'll bring you on board. Yet another way is J1
internship which you can use to do an internship here and see if you can find
a full time job (much like OP did). And finally you can always just keep
applying for the Green Card lottery every year because you never know, you
might get lucky. And the smaller the country you're coming from, the higher
the chances of getting selected.

Good luck!

~~~
rakedbmigrate
I'm a college dropout and I did a startup which is failed miserably. I used to
work with various US based early stage startup as a freelance developer.
Unfortunately none of them haven't shown any green signs.

Should I finish my degree here or should I start applying to Universities in
US? I was also planning to apply for internship in valley startups.

> you can always just keep applying for the Green Card lottery

Unfortunately, my country is not eligible for Greencard lottery.

~~~
tim333
I don't know that much about it but I would guess a good strategy would be get
a decent, presumably bachelors, degree where you are and then apply for a
masters in the US.

------
htaway2577235
Was the $8/hour Boston job under the work/travel visa?

~~~
isalmon
It was under J-1 'Internship' visa
[[http://j1visa.state.gov/programs/intern/](http://j1visa.state.gov/programs/intern/)]

------
Dewie3
> I know that hundreds, maybe thousands of people like me are willing to start
> their companies here in the US, employ people, pay taxes, drive the economy,

It seems they care more and more about megacorp _job creators_ than others.

------
anti-shill
we need a moratorium on legal immigration--it helps suppress wage growth and
drive up housing costs

~~~
khuey
What drives up housing costs is a lack of houses.

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peter303
Perhaps US should change that if one does not have a job and started a
household by age 30, then they lose their US citizenship. This could motivate
some lazy millennials. I recall something similar in ancient Rome.

