
OnlyFans, influencers, and the politics of selling nudes during a pandemic - smacktoward
https://www.elle.com/culture/a32459935/onlyfans-sex-work-influencers/
======
econcon
As I read some women in the article are making as much as a talented ivy
league graduate who joins a tech company.

It seems amoral to prevent them from making money, why don't we see it as a
talent as we see "tech jobs" as talent?

Can it really do more damage than what tech companies specially one who pedal
ads and sell customer data and give people anxiety?

~~~
jbob2000
The message this sends to girls is that if you’re pretty, this is the easiest
way to make a lot of money. It damages the work of people who have spent
decades trying to get women to be valued for things other than their bodies.

~~~
michaelbrave
I once heard something from someone I never want to agree with but it was a
decent point. If intelligence is part of the biological lottery and we value
it as an employer for all the advantages it could bring your business, then
it's fair to think that someone who is attractive has won a similar genetic
lottery and it could bring similar benefits to your business.

It's something I want to disagree with, except I can see that there is more
truth to it than not, even if it goes against what I believe the world should
be.

~~~
justwalt
I think it’s a good point, and not one I’d considered. But there’s a large
lead lead time required to hone intelligence in school or by other means that
it doesn’t account for.

------
diffrinse
The problem with modern society is everyone's a master of plausible
deniability. Our obsession with legalism over plain ol ethics in America has
created a culture where everyone's assessing what they can and cannot get away
with and going from there, in so many ways and domains.

This is why enough comments in this thread are just circular arguments thinly
veiling an opinion that does not want to fully shed itself into the light.

America has thus become such contradictory place that trust between random
strangers is null and void, already a Hobbesian game of stalemate.

Progressives aren't any better; they rely on implicit, unwritten rules just as
much as any strictly heteronormative conservative and so struggle with ethical
nuance just as much.

Until Americans stop trying to game each other for what they can get instead
of exposing themselves to one another utterly whenever they have to confront
real, indissoluble ethical problems that can't be brute forced by
partisanship.

And it's precisely because America really has no culture that it falls on
America to face up to this task more than any other country.

Edit: No really, go back and re-read Leviathan, Hobbes doesn't say a state of
nature is all-out violence, he specifically says _nothing_ happens ("no
industry or culture"); it's a stalemate. Nobody makes a move, so _everybody_
loses

~~~
totony
I think this is exhuberated by the this very same lack of culture you are
referring. Outting youself and your ethics instantly targets you to the
opposing views in ways hard to defend against and enables what the "cancel
culture" is good at

~~~
diffrinse
"Cancel Culture" is the epitome of American culture, it's truest son precisely
because it is its prodigal son, exactly like the plot of King Lear, only
America is King Lear, wandering around destitute still thinking its King when
it thought it could have its cake and eat it too. Which goes back to my
original post above.

------
ausbah
I am all for letting people do what they like with their bodies, but if people
are trying to makes ends meet and they believe the only way of doing so is via
selling pictures of their bodies - I think society has another massive moral
failing on its hands

and this probably an unrefined opinion, but I feel like firing a worker for
running a NSFW OnlyFans account (or similar) would, if not should, run
agrounds for sexual harassment or unlawful termination. or at the very least
be should be called out for being rooted in unwarranted social standards and
expectations

~~~
happytoexplain
It's crazy to me how ubiquitous the assumption is that any kind of sex work,
even something as tame as nude photography, _must_ be considered an unhappy
last resort by any woman engaging in it.

~~~
ausbah
this isn't quite what I was trying to say, I should've been more specific. I
was more trying to say that I think bodily autonomy is a such a important part
of a person's identity that a person should never feel pressure to unwillingly
give up their bodily autonomy

~~~
GaryNumanVevo
What? Selling nudes is the epitome of bodily autonomy, if they want to sell
nudes, they should be allowed to because they own their own body.

~~~
ausbah
again, that's not what I'm saying. if someone wants to sell nudes, go for it.
however I see an issue in having someone who had no desire to do so, but feels
compelled to so just to get by

~~~
pehtis
> someone who had no desire to do so, but feels compelled to so just to get by

is the definition of work for most people. How is this different?

~~~
rndgermandude
Exactly that. It's not like janitorial staff or farm hands or factory line
workers or the swaths of other people doing menial, backbreaking or extremely
boring jobs by and large chose to do so for any reason other than trying to
make ends meet.

------
mydongle
As a guy, I'm cool with this kind of stuff. But what message does this send to
girls who are not considered attractive enough or just don't want to do this
kind of work? The message is that all the study, work, and effort to work in a
meaningful career is a freaking joke, when all it takes is to be born a
certain way and make huge amounts of money selling your body.

On the other hand, we have a generation of young males who will be trapped in
this vampiric system where their money and time are spent on girls who
wouldn't even look at them if they crossed paths on the street, instead of
going out there and building real relationships.

I'm just generalizing of course, don't think I'm saying this applies to
everyone. But man, we are so fucked.

~~~
DoreenMichele
_But what message does this send to girls_

I think the larger problem is the degree to which men refuse to engage women
in a substantive intellectual fashion.

I appear to be the highest ranked woman on HN. I've been here over a decade.
It continues to be the case that most men don't really want to talk much with
me unless they are hitting on me.

This has proven to be a huge barrier to effective networking and a huge
barrier to turning my participation into an adequate income, something men
seem to have no trouble doing here if they so desire.

I am not against sex work. But I have a very big problem with the degree to
which other earning opportunities are lacking for women because of this
dynamic where simply being female means no one wants to take your work
seriously.

I don't think it helps to put a stop to sex work. All that does is make women
prisoners of their men because then earning it on your back by "marrying well"
becomes the only really viable means to have an adequate income for a woman
when so many career doors that aren't sex work are so hard to force open if
you are female and sex work is vilified as immoral and often is made illegal
as well.

I have been talking for many years on HN about my desire to establish an
adequate earned income via the internet because of my medical situation. I was
homeless for nearly six years of that and I have had people tell me I was
"panhandling the internet" and things like that.

I was told for years "Get a real job" when men here who are trying to make
money online don't get told the same thing.

I get treated like I'm just a whiner, not someone with a legitimate complaint
or legitimate social observation, etc ad nauseum.

If you really are concerned about the status of women, you should be much more
concerned about the myriad social factors that make sex work one of the few
ways women can reliably make a good income.

Because stamping out sex work doesn't magically open other doors. If it did, I
would be fabulously wealthy because I have been celibate for medical reasons
for fifteen years. If this were not true, I likely would have moved to Nevada,
where sex work is legal, and made a killing to pay off my debts and come up
with enough money to pay cash for a house or at least a down payment on a
house.

Sex work is not a viable option for me and I'm no longer amenable to the idea
for various reasons. But solving my financial problems shouldn't be this hard.
I have six years of college and yadda. But I can't make the same connections
men make and that's a huge barrier to trying to establish an adequate income.

This is true whether we ban sex work or not. Focusing on "But what is the
message to girls here..." is the wrong focus. It doesn't solve the real
problem women have.

~~~
solidasparagus
I don't mean to be personal or rude - I only say this because someone said it
to me once and it helped me.

Your experiences in comment threads are often a reflection of what YOU write.
Hostile people get hostility, humble people often get humbleness in return.
Looking at this comment thread, some of the problems you mention in this
comment have come up and perhaps it's worth considering whether that is due to
how you write your comments.

~~~
DoreenMichele
I've spent a lot of time in therapy. If it were somehow the way I write, I
would be thrilled to pieces to learn that fact and correct it.

After nearly 11 years of being told things like "On the internet, no one knows
you're a dog if you don't tell them" and having it suggested to me that if my
gender is an issue, I should simply hide that fact, I'm pretty darn sure it's
not the way I write. It's the way the world reacts to women.

~~~
badrabbit
I wouldn't even know you are a woman unless you told me. I personally don't
keep track of who says what (with exception of a few famous people). On HN, I
feel at home in that what is said is viewed as important, logical reasoning
and reproducible process are valued from what I have seen.

------
drummer
Remember to read "the manipulated man" by esther vilar.

------
rland
I watched this video recently about OnlyFans:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djMojvschs0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djMojvschs0)

It's more than just the content itself. "Becoming a fan" is a simulacra of a
relationship, commodified. This already existed with escorts, of course, but
never at this scale.

My personality type is probably closer to being a "consumer" than being a
"producer" of content on OF. I don't use the site. But if I did, my status as
a consumer would totally preclude being in a romantic relationship. Gonna go
out on a limb and guess that most consumers and producers are in a similar
situation -- if they're on OnlyFans, they're not in a real relationship.

It's only natural that taking genuine human connection, turning it financial,
and then using the internet to turn it into a commodity and producing profit
would extend to sex. I'm actually surprised it took so long.

~~~
vharuck
Things you're assuming:

1\. Consumers use OnlyFans as a poor substitute to an in-person relationship.

2\. It's always better to be in a romantic relationship than not.

How is camgirling and pornography so different from other performance? What
about comedians? They do the same thing as friends: tell jokes, laugh,
entertain. A lot of them explicitly try to connect with the audience by asking
questions and having short chats. But most people realize comedians aren't a
substitute for friends.

The only real difference is your other assumption:

3\. Sexuality outside romantic relationships is immoral.

You can argue that point. Personally, I'd be uncomfortable watching or
interacting with a live person this way (I really didn't enjoy my only visit
to a strip club). But I'm not going to generalize my psyche across others.

~~~
rland
Well, I'm not sure exactly what everyone uses OF for. I'm making the
assumption that there is "something more" than just the pictures and videos,
because I can search big boob on Google right now and get 2 billion hits.

The "something more" is the interaction -- recognition that you exist from the
person you're tipping when you tip. Being a "follower" of an onlyfans girl to
me seems much more about intimacy than about pornography.

I do think that in general close relationships, especially core intimate
relationships like those with parents and spouses, are the most important
things in human life. I guess that's my opinion but I find it hard to believe
that anyone would disagree.

My argument really isn't about sexuality at all, because I don't think OF is
about sexuality, really. Sex is a part of it but not the core of the platform.
And it's not morality. I don't think it's morally wrong to do this, I do think
it's depressing. That we feel so disconnected from one another that we are
willing to forgo the "real thing" for a simulation.

I'm sure that for all of history there is some baseline level of the
population that, for one reason or another, finds it so difficult to connect
that they're not willing to enter a "real" relationship at all. What I worry
about is if this portion of the population is growing, because there's a
profit motive, or a psychological short circuit, or some disconnect caused by
modern life.

It's hard to articulate exactly _what_ , here. I just feel that there's
something broken about OF or the world we've created that enables it to be so
successful.

------
legostormtroopr
More power to people selling if it works for them, I'm just concerned they
aren't thinking about their futures. As crass as people will say this is,
selling your body is selling access to a depreciating asset. While they might
be making good money now, eventually these girls will grow up. Slowly they'll
see subscribers dip, but only enough for them to think they can adjust their
product.

But there will always be someone younger, or just newer, and what they are
selling won't be a "hot commodity" any more. At that point to either drop out
broke, or creep towards more hardcore offerings.

Eventually they'll be burned out of the system, they'll have burned through
their early career, likely with little to show for it, and with no real career
skills or plan.

~~~
NoahTheDuke
This sounds like most careers, though. Except for the sensational language,
how is this different than agism in the software industry, or folks who never
become managers? In my (limited) experience, most people don’t climb the ranks
or get major pay increases, especially during a pandemic like this.

~~~
legostormtroopr
Agism in the software industry is only a big issue in the "startup scene", in
industry its not as big an issue and experience software architects are always
in demand, even if they don't become "managers".

And even if you aren't climbing ranks, as long as you keep up your skills you
can stay in a job in some places for a long time.

What I am saying is that people who go into "camming" don't have that option.
Eventually their audience will go away.

------
Igelau
> the farmer’s market of porn

Now that's an elevator pitch.

------
troughway
To people coming in to read these comments - are you surprised?

Me neither.

~~~
SirSavary
I'm surprised and disappointed with myself for expecting more. Selling nudes
is great... Until it isn't.

------
oceanghost
I find the whole thing narcissistic, shallow, and distasteful. HOWEVER, that
is part of the cost of a free society (as much as we are). People are free to
make mistakes.

My problem with this is how it's marketed.

I happen to have found myself single earlier this year... and I would say 80%
of the traffic on dating sites is these onlyfans/snapchat folks. The rest of
the split is outright scammers and the occasional lonely heart peppered in.

The dating sites have a symbiotic relationship with these folks-- they need
someone to draw users/payers in and this is the way to do it with the most
plausible deniability.

Some dating sites are way more guilty than others, with a few being outright
scams in my opinion (Hily is one that's a scam).

------
rewoi
Interesting I read yesterday that OnlyFans started banning for nudes and is
refunding customers. Some models lost thousands of dollars.

Running porn site requires a lot of paperwork and is relatively risky.

~~~
Nextgrid
Wasn't that their main cash cow and essentially the only reason for their
business to exist? I've never heard of that company in SFW contexts - that's
Patreon's territory.

~~~
rewoi
It was originally for cosplayers and models, very very soft-core, not porn.

Platform is liable if it is offering prostitution (google "Craigslist
controversy"). Only Fans has zero paperwork for this in their disclaimers. I
am not a lawyer, but I think they are in gray area.

------
rjpn
It is surprising as well as depressing that someone can get enough money to
buy a house from OnlyFans payout. Goes to say how many people spend money on
that kind of stuff. Instagram models living rich lifestyle is different as
they endorse products and advertising is involved. This is just people paying
to watch someones naked photos.

~~~
sneak
Why is that in any way depressing? Making others feel better via a personal
connection is one of the most noble professions one can pursue.

It’s a lot more important than meaningless “influencer marketing” covert
advertising that exists only to make people buy shit they don’t need.

~~~
troughway
>Why is that in any way depressing?

The connection is fake. The men are desperate. The women are sleazy.

~~~
MuffinFlavored
> The connection is fake. The men are desperate. The women are sleazy.

I'm with you on the first two parts but the third one is going to get you
slammed here. Women who perform sex work are held in equal/high regard by the
members of this community.

~~~
rufus1
it's easy to signal by saying this but how many men who say this would
actually want their sister / mom / daughter participating in any sort of sex
work? it's both the oldest job and the oldest taboo for a reason

~~~
sneak
What reason is that?

------
marpstar
My opinion: Porn is the new drug. Our daughters are the dealers and our sons
are the users. Sex addiction fueled by free internet porn has ruined countless
lives.

At least OnlyFans is behind a paywall, keeping it out of view of children.

~~~
jseliger
_Sex addiction fueled by free internet porn has ruined countless lives._

I would like to see a citation on this.

Moral panics around sexuality are at least a couple centuries old, and
technologies that are said to have contributed to or created them include the
printing press, radio, the bicycle, the car, TV, movies, magazines, and now
the Internet. For many of the earlier technologies, Gay Talese's book _Thy
Neighbor 's Wife_ has a serviceable overview of the moral panics.

~~~
smt88
Nicole Prause is a lucid, pioneering researcher on such issues, and she has
spent a lot of time debunking myths like the one GP proposes.

One write-up here: [https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/understanding-the-
er...](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/understanding-the-erotic-
code/201911/how-porn-and-sex-are-different-in-the-brain)

(She has unfortunately become a target of certain right-wing elements, so if
you Google her, you will find a lot of non-scientific attacks. You should read
her publications directly and form your own opinion.)

~~~
mikevm
Nicole Prause did no myth busting, and your blaming of "right-wing elements"
on disagreements with her is downright disingeneous.

See [https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/relevant-research-and-
articl...](https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/relevant-research-and-articles-
about-the-studies/critiques-of-questionable-debunking-propaganda-pieces/peer-
reviewed-critiques-of-prause-et-al-2015/)

I think that the recent scientific articles cited on
[https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/](https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/) and the
countless of self-reports by men in various "NoFap" communities make a pretty
good case the porn-addiction is not a myth.

Also, see: [https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/relevant-research-and-
articl...](https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/relevant-research-and-articles-
about-the-studies/critiques-of-questionable-debunking-propaganda-pieces/is-
nicole-prause-influenced-by-the-porn-industry/)

~~~
smt88
Your comment is exactly what I was expecting when I wrote mine. I'm not
surprised to see it or the downvotes.

Your Brain on Porn is written by a non-scientist with an axe to grind.

> _countless of self-reports by men in various "NoFap" communities make a
> pretty good case the porn-addiction is not a myth._

Self-reports and anecdotes are not controlled, blinded studies. They're not
scientific. They tell us nothing.

If that kind of data were scientific, then we'd all be 100% certain that
drinking certain herbal teas cures 50% of the flu, or that marijuana use has a
causal relationship with using cocaine.

Sex and porn addiction may or may not be a myth, but the thing that Prause
debunks in her various research is that the availability of porn and sex
_causes_ those addictions.

What researchers have found is that excessive, obsessive, and/or life-damaging
usage of porn and sex are due to existing mental health issues. You don't have
a healthy, happy man in a relationship suddenly see extreme porn for the first
time and then stop going to work.

~~~
dang
Please follow the site guidelines when posting on divisive issues. There's no
need to start with a swipe. The second bit ("non-scientist with an axe to
grind") arguably breaks the guideline against name-calling in arguments, too.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
smt88
Your overall point is taken. Flamewar ended.

As far as name-calling, it was not my intention at all. If you aren't
familiar, the creator of YourBrainOnPorn is literally not a scientist (he
neither studies nor practices a science) and doesn't claim to be a scientist.

In describing him as I did, I didn't see any distinction from the descriptions
on HN about anti-vaxxers or climate-change deniers.

------
seibelj
Who would have guessed so many people on HN are against individual freedom?
There is absolutely zero ethically or morally wrong with someone selling sex,
or buying sex from someone else. Or maybe we should ban pop music stars from
revealing too much skin in their music videos? Where do you draw the line
between "This is immoral!" and "Wow, what a successful person!" Just ignore it
if you don't like it. No one puts a gun to your head to pay someone for sex -
so don't point your guns at them for doing so.

~~~
MuffinFlavored
> There is absolutely zero ethically or morally wrong with someone selling
> sex, or buying sex from someone else.

That's an insanely modern/left view with zero consideration to basically all
historically socially accepted conservative views of the past.

It's trendy to support sex workers online in 2020 but in the 2000s I'm pretty
sure 95% of white suburbia wouldn't have wanted their daughters hanging out
with sex workers.

~~~
krapp
>That's an insanely modern/left view with zero consideration to basically all
historically socially accepted conservative views of the past.

No, not every culture in history has been saddled with the Judeo-Christian
prejudice against women and their sexuality.

Also, historically socially accepted "conservative" views include slavery,
rule by divine right, child labor and trial by combat. A view having been held
and taken for granted for a long time doesn't make it correct.

~~~
MuffinFlavored
> A view having been held and taken for granted for a long time doesn't make
> it correct.

The leftist mob of blue Twitter checkmarks has been cancelling people since
about... 2012? It's trendy to be pro sex work, anti-corporation in 2020.

The majority of people commenting online about how "pro sex work" they are do
not have a sex worker in their life by a longshot. It's all theory/keyboard
warrior/armchair activist stuff.

~~~
jachee
And who are _you_ to gatekeep what causes people can and cannot support
without a direct association?

Also, you completely discredited yourself from any sort of worthy debate with
"leftist mob".

~~~
heromal
Calm down neckbeard, back to your Javascript

------
generalpass
This was among my first thoughts when the first unemployment report came out.
We are sending our daughters to OnlyFans. Still not sure where our sons end
up.

~~~
vbtemp
Well, not to strip naked on the internet. There was a great paper that came
out recently demonstrating the value of men's sexuality is negative (vs that
of women).

Men don't possess anything intrinsically valuable or desirable. There is no
fallback. I too wonder what this will mean for (young) men, who have already
been pushed down a dark path.

~~~
vzidex
We know already where it heads - to young men being radicalized to hate
everyone who isn't like them (i.e. not young, male, angry, usually white,
usually straight).

~~~
liamcardenas
This would’ve been a good comment if you had left out the part in the
parentheses.

I’d say it’s more of a class thing. They will be angry at the the ruling class
and wealthy. I don’t think they are going to be taking it out on old ladies...

~~~
vzidex
That's what you'd hope for, but in practice that's not what I'm seeing. The
anger I see online is directed at politicians in some cases - but usually for
said politicians supporting social programs, pro-immigration policies, and
anti-gun policies.

In the rest of cases, anger is indeed directed at LGBTQ+ people - especially
towards trans people - people of color - especially blacks, and increasingly
Asians - and women - especially those who are viewed as "promiscuous".

