
The Best Hope for France’s Young? Get Out - wallflower
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/30/opinion/sunday/the-best-hope-for-frances-young-get-out.html?hp
======
virtualwhys
Hang on, hang on, let me shed a tear while I contemplate the fact that EVERY
French citizen without a job gets a monthly pay check.

It may be subsistence living, but unlike the States where unemployment means
credit debt and eventual homelessness, it's living nonetheless, and the state
foots the bill, incredible social safety net.

As an expat living part of the year in France it's always shocked me how
unemployed seasonal workers get up to 80% of their salary for the 8 months of
the year they don't work. Where I'm living (SW France), kids will work the
summer season in a restaurant or similar, then come autumn, hey, time to go
surfing in Indonesia, "pay" checks mailed to the bank.

Needless to say, the French live pretty well working or not.

~~~
theorique
_unemployed seasonal workers get up to 80% of their salary for the 8 months of
the year they don 't work._

My goodness, who pays for this?

~~~
PanickedOmlette
Taxpayers. And that, people, is socialism.

That's the cycle ---> rich country with strong middle class --> right-wing
politicians get less and less popular/elected --> socialists/communists come
--> poor country --> right-wing politicians are elected again

~~~
philipp-de
In Germany,where i live, you get:

* 2/3 of your last wage for 1 year on unemployment, free health care

* After that expires you get your rent paid, free health care , and 400 euro per month for other expenses - indefinitely

On top of that everyone also gets free additional care when they are old /
nursing home.

Also everyone gets a minimum pension once they reach 67 years of age.

Germany has the lowest youth unemployment in europe. it has one of the lowest
overall unemployment rates in europe. it is one of the few countries that
still had growth in the years past / is not deeply in recession.

Yeah, those are the perils of "socialism".

~~~
PanickedOmlette
Germany is doing well, because of : 1\. Germans working hard 2\. Qualified
immigrants from Eastern European countries(and other parts of the world as
well). Their labour is cheaper, which in turn is like adrenalin to the
economy. I'll let you figure out why.

~~~
coldtea
1) That's actually factually wrong (check EU work statistics) and a little
racist -- adopting the stereotype of Germans as working robots. Here's a
pointer:

"According to a new research on working hours in countries of the European
Union, Greeks work 42.2 hours per week. more than all other Europeans. The
research was conducted by the National Statistical Service of Britain for the
period April-June 2011. German people work 35.6 hours per week, French 38
hours, the British 36.3 hours, while the Irish only 35 hours. In addition,
according to the same research, full-time workers in Greece and Austria are
working more hours (43.7) than workers elsewhere in the EU" (from the
Guardian).

2) Nope, they mostly got/get lots of unqualified immigrants. Not to mention
that the integration of Eastern Germany post 1989 had an enormous cost that
nearly toppled Germany's economy.

------
tzs
> a youth unemployment rate of 25 percent for nearly 30

What does it ACTUALLY mean to be unemployed in France?

In the US, if I lose my job and cannot find another for a long time, here is
what happens:

• I have to start paying for health insurance. This will probably be in the
$500-1000/month range.

• Unemployment insurance pays me for a while.

• In a little over a year, unemployment runs out. At that point, I'll be
living entirely on my savings.

• When savings run out, I lose my house. Oh, I also lose my health insurance.

• Before becoming homeless and losing most of my possessions. Hopefully, in
the prior year I've been eating good healthy home-cooked food to save money,
and also hitting my treadmill regularly, and so might have gotten into good
enough shape to no longer need my diabetes and blood pressure medicine, since
I can no longer afford them.

To sum it up, being unemployed in the US means you are majorly screwed. Our
social safety nets are just not very good.

Our health insurance safety net, for instance, is the emergency room. If you
show up with a life threatening condition, they are required to treat you
regardless of insurance or ability to pay. They only treat you enough so that
you are no longer in immediate danger, and then they can kick you out. Given
the choice between providing someone with $30 worth of drugs a month that will
keep their condition under control forever, or letting their condition become
life threatening and treating it with a $5000 emergency room visit every 2 or
3 months to just keep them alive--the US goes with the latter. Giving them a
$30/month prescription would be socialism, and we can't have that.

~~~
icelancer
That is the whole reason people are unemployed in France, you realize that,
right? Incentives being what they are, and all....

~~~
sentenza
I think I have to disagree. Not knowing the specifics of French unemployment
benefits, here in Germany, the situation is probably closer to that in France
than that in the US. If you are unemployed, you still have health insurance,
you get some money, and becoming homeless because of unemployment is basically
unheard of.

So far, I have yet to meet a person that is happily unemployed here. There is
a huge social stigma attached to it and people get depressed because the self-
image suffers from being unemployed for longer times. Going a little bit over
the top, the whole incentive argument to me sounds like this: Since being
miserable does not provide the right incentives for an unemployed person to
search for work, the situation must be improved by making them miserable and
hungry/homeless.

~~~
rdouble
France is like most countries with high unemployment in that the primary cause
of unemployment is that there aren't enough jobs. Germany has the mittelstand
which keeps over 70% of the population employed. The US has its own version of
the mittelstand with over 26,000 Subway sandwich franchises, so its
unemployement rate is only slightly worse than Germany.

~~~
Radim
Rubbish. There is a massive lack of jobs, just like everywhere else in Europe.

There may be a lack of _high-paying, low-stress_ jobs, the kind that spoiled,
study-a-random-field-till-30 university graduates generally feel entitled to,
but that's not the same thing.

~~~
rtpg
>There may be a lack of high-paying, low-stress jobs, the kind that spoiled,
study-a-random-field-till-30 university graduates generally feel entitled to,
but that's not the same thing.

What are you referencing by that? Off the top of my mind I can't think of any
low-stress job. Sure, some jobs are less stressful, but I don't think anyone
has the expectation to find a job that doesn't conform to general properties
of almost all jobs.

------
speeder
I currently live in São Paulo, Brazil...

That infamously is on several lists of one of the worst place to do business
in the world (because it is first place in red tape and associated costs, also
very high in corruption, tax rate, and so on...)

Yet, I've seen with my own eyes a ever bigger community of french business
people here, there are LOTS of rich french, or young french, coming here and
doing business here, and some of them I talked, absolutely hate Brazil
(regarding business aspects, violence, and some other stuff), but imply (they
never reply directly when I ask, and some get offended) that yet Brazil is
still better to live than France...

This makes me believe something VERY WRONG is going on there... Usually it was
the dream of Brazillians to move to France, not the opposite!

~~~
chestnut-tree
London has been called France's sixth biggest city. According to this BBC
article from March 2012 there is an estimated 300,000 to 400,000 French
citizens living in London. That's more than the population of Bordeaux, Nantes
or Strasbourg.

[http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18234930](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18234930)

~~~
nicolasp
I know I'm rather late but I just wanted to point out that this number is
likely an exaggeration. See this: [http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/more-like-
colmar-on-thames/](http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/more-like-colmar-on-thames/)

------
hga
" _France has always been a land to which people dream of coming. Not
leaving._ "

That would be news to my mother and her ancestors:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cajun](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cajun)

~~~
theorique
Also see: Eastern Canada.

(Mind you, this was in the 18th century, but still.)

~~~
mynameishere
Cajuns were from Eastern Canada.

~~~
theorique
True, back there they are called Acadians, but it's the same people.

------
doe88
(French here)

Maybe I think backward, I always wanted to travel and learn from others
countries and cultures. I even did an internship in the US in MV and I loved
it.

But after reading this kind of article the only thing I want to do is fight
for my country, I wouldn't say I'm patriot, far from it, I consider myself
European first. But I don't think we're as bad as people (often ones of our
owns) try to describe us. So I want to fight against the odds, against our
weaknesses and yes we have a lot of things pulling us down but overall I
really think there still are plenty of bright minds. I don't want to leave, I
want to fight and succeed here.

~~~
coldtea
> _But after reading this kind of article the only thing I want to do is fight
> for my country, I wouldn 't say I'm patriot, far from it, I consider myself
> European first._

What does "European first" even mean, though? To be friendly with other
European nations/cultures is one thing.

But there's no such thing as an entity called Europe that cares for all the
people's in it -- E.U, for one, isn't it. The larger countries, and especially
Germany, control the whole game. And the law making, representation, etc, of
individual countries (and people) in E.U is opaque and authoritarian, more
bureaucratic than democratic. Nothing like the US in unity, for a thing
(except for the bad parts: corporations and private interests controlling
legislation and such).

So, I'd say, fighting for democracy and social justice in YOUR country (France
in your case) is more important, in the political sense, than any general
feeling of "Europeanes".

And, sure, people can always immigrate somewhere else, especially within EU.
But if that immigration is not because of personal (e.g cultural) choice, but
to avoid hardships and fighting, then it's an easy cop-out -- those people are
not fighters and not give a damn for their community, only for their personal
well-being. And they would just as easily abandon their new host country too.
Remember that in order to there be countries to immigrate to --in the first
place--, there must have been people willing to stand for them and improve
them.

~~~
doe88
> What does "European first" even mean, though? To be friendly with other
> European nations/cultures is one thing.

It's easy, I'm feeling myself European it might seem dumb or impossible to you
but it is. I think we're very much alike, we love the same sports and take our
holidays in the same places, more often than not people have ancestors from
another counry in Europe (mine were from Italy). When I was young I spent
holidays in Austria, Italy and Spain, I played with kids from all these
countries and it never seemed we were differents. I can tell you growing up in
such an environment is probably what's make me think I feel European first.
I'm sorry if I don't have a better explanation for what I feel.

------
thasmin
It's interesting to see the EU take form. With the recent finance reforms and
articles like this, it looks to me like the EU is becoming more and more like
the US with the countries taking the role of states. Moving between US states
for the purpose of employment is extremely common. The EU countries have more
border autonomy and language barriers that prevent people from moving between
them, but it seems similar to the formation of the US and the subsequent 200
years of consolidating power at the federal level. I'm looking forward to
seeing what happens in the next 20 years.

~~~
mpyne
Many of the people I chat to from Europe on IRC confirm that notion. They
consider themselves E.U. citizens first and foremost.

Of course these are heavily tech-oriented chat rooms so I'm not sure how far
that can be applied. But I find it interesting myself, especially given the
history of the USA, where right up to the 1870s people considered themselves a
citizen of the _state_ first and not the _nation_... obviously it has
eventually inverted.

But should this inversion actually happen, when does the USA get to ask for
the E.U. to act as a singular entity for things like Olympics, U.N.
representation, and other international protocols? ;)

~~~
rtpg
I can't recall where I saw it, but there was a poll asking people whether they
felt European or a citizen of their own country. The "Europeans" were not very
high. Definitely some selection bias (firstly, I guess you're talking to
people who are comfortable IRC'ing in English).

Also, the EU is already represented as a whole in some int'l organisations
(such as the dual representation in the WTO), and economonically the Euro Zone
is a block from the outside.

------
ronjouch
As a French citizen emigrated to Canada, that's a concern I can relate to. The
best thing I found to explain what's wrong with France (to quote NYT and add a
few of my own: distrust, negativism, elitism, "losing hope", "overcentralized
gerontocracy") is this little book:

 _La société de défiance : Comment le modèle social français s 'autodétruit_
(ISBN-10: 272880396X, ISBN-13: 978-2728803965) English Translation: _The
distrust society: How the French social model self-destructs_
[http://www.amazon.fr/La-soci%C3%A9t%C3%A9-d%C3%A9fiance-
fran...](http://www.amazon.fr/La-soci%C3%A9t%C3%A9-d%C3%A9fiance-
fran%C3%A7ais-sautod%C3%A9truit/dp/272880396X/)

Its "originality" is that, unlike articles like the one linked here, the
authors support their argument with serious economical and statistical
analysis.

Montréal-based HNers wanting to borrow my copy are welcome, feel free to
contact me at @ronjouch

EDIT: ebook freely available here:
[http://www.cepremap.fr/depot/opus/OPUS09.pdf](http://www.cepremap.fr/depot/opus/OPUS09.pdf)
(PDF, 5MB)

~~~
gboudrias
Can you tell us more?

~~~
ronjouch
I'd love to, but I read it a long time ago and I don't have the copy with me.
If you can read french, I recommend this review, which is where I got word of
the book:

[http://econo.free.fr/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&...](http://econo.free.fr/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18&Itemid=2&codenote=178)

And ooooh NICE, the review made me realize that the book is available for free
as PDF :) :
[http://www.cepremap.fr/depot/opus/OPUS09.pdf](http://www.cepremap.fr/depot/opus/OPUS09.pdf)
, and I'm editing my original post.

------
chestnut-tree
The figures for youth unemployment in Europe are shocking.

The percentage of people under the age of 25 who are unemployed:

\- Greece: 62.5% \- Spain: 56.4% \- Portugal: 42.5% \- Italy: 40.5% \- Cyprus:
32.7% \- Rep of Ireland: 26.6% \- France: 26.5% \- UK: 20.2% \- Germany: 7.5%
\- EU average: 23.5%

Source: [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-
europe-23095198](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23095198)

~~~
jaggederest
Yes, my fundamental question about this article - where are they going to go?

It's not like there are jobs begging to be filled in other countries, barring
perhaps the oilfields in North Dakota.

~~~
Proleps
> _Yes, my fundamental question about this article - where are they going to
> go?_

Germany, The Netherlands, Norway or Sweden. Lots of countries left where there
is still work.

------
grantlmiller
France is a good example of a country where its citizens and leaders have
chosen to protect the status quo at the expense of innovation, advancement and
particularly at the expense of our generation (namely those born in the 80s).
This is a trend that I find is beginning to happen in the US... less
productive (and more expensive) older workers are creating rules & legislation
to protect themselves (unions are classic examples of this... AirBnb & Uber
are constantly fighting this). We have to stand up for free markets else we'll
fall victim on the road to serfdom.

~~~
nraynaud
You know, you can think that but, ITER, concorde, ariane, Airbus, M51, part of
LHC, some air carriers are created partly here. It's not startuppy at all, but
I would not say nothing happens. There is some kind of state driven
innovation. I don't like it but it exists and gets shit done.

------
steeve
(French here)

Written by a guy who's never worked a day in his life, I find that article to
be very funny.

French bashing is always done better by the french.

Guys, to give you a bit of context, when this guy wrote his first piece last
september, the backlash was quite big (which might also explain why he never
went anywhere with his campaign at the time).

To me this guy has zero credibility.

~~~
ignostic
> "to give you a bit of context, when this guy wrote his first piece last
> september, the backlash was quite big"

I appreciate we Americans don't know everything about the system, but you
added nothing to my understanding. This is from the article:

>"When the journalist Mouloud Achour, the rapper Mokless and I published a
column in the French daily Libération last September, arguing that France was
a decrepit, overcentralized gerontocracy and that French youths should pack
their bags and go find better opportunities elsewhere in the world, it caused
an uproar."

We might gain something if you'd try to explain why you think the view that
France is a bad place to live for the new generation.

------
Rexxar
> French youths lounging on the Champs-Élysées.

The legend of the photo of the article is ridiculous knowing there is 90% of
probability that they are tourists.

------
LaGrange
A bit tangential to the point, but still: get out, wherever you live. If you
have the ability (which may be non-trivial), moving country is of a huge
benefit. Even if you love the place you live in, you just don't have a
comparison if you haven't lived (i.e. had local friends and jobs and dealt
with day to day stuff for a couple of years) somewhere else. And just the
experience both makes you more interesting and helps you get the experience
that makes you better at many higher-paid jobs. Also, having friends around
the world can be invaluable if/once you _have_ to get out.

------
aristidb
Kind of curious that the article ends with mentions of Brazil and China... I
think neither are the best options for young French people right now - for
one, wage levels there are significantly lower than in France. Canada, USA or
Northern Europe seem like better targets to me.

------
kghose
Hey folks. I have an idea. It's not particularly novel, but this article
triggered the thought. Let's try an experiment. For the next month, July, let
us post and promote articles that speak well of a country's systems. In every
country there is something admirable and awesome about the
people/culture/systems. How about we spend just a month educating ourselves
about what is good in different parts of the world in the present. Just as an
exercise in trying to learn from the good as well as the bad. I'll start.

France gives generous paternal benefits:

[http://riviera.angloinfo.com/information/healthcare/pregnanc...](http://riviera.angloinfo.com/information/healthcare/pregnancy-
birth/)

------
stfu
One of the big "issues" about Europe were the missing mobility by its
citizens. Somehow it seems that the "financial crisis" intentionally or
unintentionally has positively brought change to that area.

------
joshguthrie
I approve of this.

Related: Will code Node.js for food if given out of France, wanna hire me?

------
siscia
Oh, well Italy is even worse...

------
spitx

      "And then there is France. In the realms of cultural, 
      diplomatic, linguistic or economic policies, the French
      have long and eloquently insisted on their nation's 
      "exceptionalism." Yet a new form of exceptionalism, 
      no less eloquent, though far more brutal, now burdens 
      them: since 2011, France has seen at least a dozen men
      and women who have either set, or tried to set, 
      themselves aflame.
    
      The cradle of the Enlightenment, France now glimpses 
      a very different light, one that makes visible the 
      darkness of its economic and social malaise.
    
      The series of self-immolations has ranged across the
      country, from Flanders in the north through the suburbs
      of Paris to the Pyrenees in the south. No less varied 
      are the workplaces to each of these suicides: a lycée
      teacher, a carpenter, a company manager. Moreover,
      there is a mix of class and ethnic backgrounds: among 
      the victims are so-called "français de souche" (white 
      and native born French) as well as foreign nationals
      who had lived for years in France.
    
      Beyond the static of differences, though, one can see 
      common and disconcerting themes. In all of these cases,
      the victim was either unemployed or employed in a 
      position whose pressures ultimately grew intolerable.
      In the town of Beziers, a mathematics teacher slightly
      more than a year ago set herself on fire in the 
      school's courtyard--an "act of desperation" that 
      investigators attributed to "professional reasons." 
      Last summer in the Parisian suburb of Mantes-la-Jolie,
      an unemployed man, learning his welfare benefits had
      come to an end, immolated himself outside the local 
      unemployment office. In 2011, a France-Telecom employee
      in the southern city of Orange set a match to his 
      gasoline-drench clothing in a parking lot near his 
      office building--one among several suicides at the 
      company since it began to lay off employees in its 
      effort to restructure."
    

Source:

[http://www.theatlantic.com/international/print/2013/03/self-...](http://www.theatlantic.com/international/print/2013/03/self-
immolations-in-france-what-do-they-mean/274059/)

------
lesslaw
> she explicitly told the 3.6 million young unemployed people in the euro zone
> to be ready to move around to find work as the European Union allowed them
> to and the whole European project encouraged them to.

That's a great suggestion but which one of the twenty-three official languages
of the European Union should I start studying ?

~~~
mynameishere
The one you apparently already know.

