
Nearly 80% of Japan’s Airbnbs removed in response to new home-share law - vincvinc
https://www.cntraveler.com/story/nearly-80-percent-of-japans-airbnbs-were-just-removed
======
Fede_V
I think this is an interesting and unintended consequence of AirBnB not
investing nearly on filtering their users.

AirBnB obviously was interested in getting their product used by as many
people as people (growth at all costs) - but this had the effect of getting a
lot of young, cost conscious people to take holidays in area that were
traditionally residential. While most AirBnB renters are polite and
respectful, enough of them were loud, disruptive and ignoring the local rules
(for example, tourists in Venice who use AirBnB but ignore the very strict
garbage disposal laws) that local residents started dreading having AirBnBs
around.

AirBnB is already very strict with landlords: it needs to start being a lot
stricter with its users too. They rapidly need to educate their users about
how to be good citizens, and that the motto of 'the customer is always right'
is completely the wrong way to think about a stay in a residential area in a
foreign city. Users should think of themselves as a respectful guest, not an
entitled customer.

~~~
StavrosK
No, sorry. AirBnB is creating immense problems in tourist destinations, to the
point where people in major cities in Greece (and other countries) are having
trouble finding affordable permanent housing.

Barcelona and Rome are overrun with tourists, and it's killing the cities.
AirBnB should just go away, the market worked very well before it, even if
things were a bit more expensive.

~~~
Fede_V
I can't wrap my mind around people that think that 'too many tourists' or 'too
many jobs' are a problem. Those are 'problems' that most cities in the world
would kill for: if we consider them problems it's because we are not nearly
creative enough to take advantage of them.

As a simple example: if we have too many tourists, give a progressive daily
tax that's charged to every visitor that automatically includes museum
visits/etc. Use that revenue to build more housing for local residents (and if
some dipshit points out that more housing ruins a neighboorhood's character,
ask yourself if Paris or suburbia has more character) or to subsidize local
transport infrastructure.

~~~
pjc50
> a progressive daily tax that's charged to every visitor

Lots of places already have this as a "hotel tax" .. which AirBnb doesn't pay.

~~~
xapata
Not true. I've stayed in several places where an extra county-specific tax is
imposed via AirBnB.

There may be some places which haven't yet arranged for AirBnB to pay the tax,
but it isn't because AirBnB refuses. In fact, it may be because hotels in that
area are still holding out for the possibility of banning AirBnB. When AirBnB
starts paying hotel taxes, it becomes nearly impossible to remove.

~~~
SOLAR_FIELDS
Venice, mentioned elsewhere in this thread as a problem city because of
AirBnB, levies this tax against people who visit and stay in AirBnB

~~~
wool_gather
This is interesting. How is it enforced and collected?

~~~
xapata
Separate line item in the nightly rate. It's easy to overlook. It references
the locale collecting the tax.

------
pjc50
Similar discussions are ongoing in lots of cities. In Edinburgh they're trying
to pre-empt this a bit with voluntary restrictions:
[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-
fife-4...](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-
fife-42733066)

AirBnb creates "bad neighbours" by putting lots of tourists, some of whom
behave badly, in formerly residential locations. It creates a whole new set of
absentee landlords. If it were restricted to renting out places where the
owner was still living it wouldn't be nearly so much of a problem.

~~~
fredley
This is the approach taken in London: Anyone can AirBnB their property, but
only for 90 days a year, unless you have special permission. This prevents
people buying up/renting flats just to let them out on AirBnB and putting
pressure on the already cripplingly bad housing situation.

~~~
andy_ppp
Isn’t this just ignored largely?

~~~
fredley
AFAIK the limit is on AirBnB's site directly. Your account is limited until
you provide documents from the council. I don't know to what extent people are
forging these documents though.

~~~
ceejayoz
"Apartment #1A, #1B, #1C..."

~~~
Retric
Seems easy enough for someone to report an apartment to Airbnb and then the
'owner' is stuck.

------
Razengan
This Redditor offers one plausible cause/reason [0]:

> _This may not be a popular opinion here but I totally understand the
> concern. There had been a huge increase in transient international visitors
> being introduced to residential areas that previously did not have to deal
> with that. Having a constant stream of strangers coming and going in your
> building is not something many residents feel comfortable with._

Also: > _Also I just want to be sure to note to people: THESE LAWS APPLY TO
ALL SHORT TERM RENTALS AND ARE NOT JUST FOR AIRBNB._

[0]
[https://www.reddit.com/r/JapanTravel/comments/8os3mv/minpaku...](https://www.reddit.com/r/JapanTravel/comments/8os3mv/minpaku_law_airbnb_and_you_information_on_the_new/)

~~~
wallace_f
That's a valid concern. But seems to be something better handled by local
ordinances and not the sort of thing a national government shoulf need to drop
the hammer down on... In my opinion.

~~~
gwbas1c
Japan is much smaller than the US or the EU.

IMO, there are certain advantages to regulating things at a higher level. It's
easier for AirBNB to comply with one set of rules instead of many. An
individual in Japan can take advantage of a single, well-written how-to guide
instead of learning his or her local laws.

That being said, where I live, I made sure the HOA explicitly forbids AirBNB-
style rentals.

~~~
wallace_f
Well if that's the only issue, that would be obviously easy to solve.

More clearly: I don't think you should make an app like this illegal. The
burden should be on the property owners, not on AirBnB. Or why not?

What other problems exist?

In some supreme court cases, justices have argued 'while I do not agree that
this should be legal, it should be up to the states to legislate, not the
federal government.'

The two major advantages I see for local legislation is 1) more-representative
and more-direct democracy, and 2) value in allowing experimentation and
competition of policy legislation...

I'm not so much making this up as I go, but these kinds of ideas are things
I've read in American political history, and when I thought about it, decided
I agreed with. Here, it seems to me like an obvious candidate for such line of
thought... But I could be wrong, maybe you can convince me otherwise?

~~~
uremog
There was a look at local laws, and a lot of ordinances were passed re: home-
sharing. I don't know why it transitioned to a national regulation.

[https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/12/26/national/local-...](https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/12/26/national/local-
governments-japan-look-clamp-private-lodging-services-stricter-regulations/)

------
geebee
There's a lot of emphasis on bad behavior from Airbnb guests, but I think
that's only part of it. Another big issue is that formerly residential
communities often resist the conversion of housing that used to host neighbors
(and especially kids) into short term tourist rentals. The pressure, and
controversy, is especially intense in areas that are largely residential but
immensely popular with tourists. The French quarter of New Orleans, the left
bank of Paris, many neighborhoods in San Francisco and New York, places like
that.

The problem is that "spare" bedrooms (as Airbnb likes to call them) are far
more lucrative used as short term tourist rentals than as a living space for
kids, who cost a bundle and don't generally pay much in rent. The pitch Airbnb
makes is that people have a spare bedroom lying' around and why not rent it
out? But the thing is, people start to acquire properties with spare bedrooms
for the purpose of having one to rent out - or entire housing units. When this
proceeds apace, former communities - which in places like the French quarter
are already primed to protect themselves from too much conversion into tourism
stock - come to see Airbnb as an existential threat.

Even if the Airbnb guests are well behaved, this fundamental difference won't
go away. Think of it this way: some people would like to trade their right to
run a hotel out of their house in exchange for a legally enforced expectation
that their neighbors won't either. That means severely restricting Airbnb.

~~~
manfredo
> The problem is that "spare" bedrooms (as Airbnb likes to call them) are far
> more lucrative used as short term tourist rentals than as a living space for
> kids, who cost a bundle and don't generally pay much in rent. The pitch
> Airbnb makes is that people have a spare bedroom lying' around and why not
> rent it out? But the thing is, people start to acquire properties with spare
> bedrooms for the purpose of having one to rent out - or entire housing
> units. When this proceeds apace, former communities - which in places like
> the French quarter are already primed to protect themselves from too much
> conversion into tourism stock - come to see Airbnb as an existential threat.

This doesn't seem like a plausible scenario. I highly doubt that Airbnb
revenue from a spare bedroom is enough to offset the cost of the spare bedroom
itself. Here in SF an extra bedroom easily adds 1K or more to the cost of an
apartment. Between getting a 2 bedroom apartment and spending the time and
effort to run a Airbnb in it, vs. having a 1 bedroom apartment and saving a
lot of money without any extra effort it's hard to see people electing the
former.

Most of the Airbnbs I've stayed in were vacation homes that the owners didn't
live in most of the year, or families whose kids moved out.

------
laurieg
Good riddance. I live in rented accommodation in Japan. A couple of years ago
an Airbnb was set up next door and it was a nightmare. People coming and going
at all hours, large groups of drunk holiday-makers having loud parties into
the night, drinking and smoking on the balcony. After multiple calls to the
owner of the apartment and the police the situation was finally resolved.

I definitely think Airbnb should have the limitation that you can only rent
out a place you actively live in.

~~~
vinceguidry
It's really sad that AirBnB is used by most people as a cheap resort, and
expect to have a resort-like experience at the expense of the local
neighborhood who has no desire to live next to one.

Can we just have home-share for people that understand how to be good
neighbors, pretty please?

~~~
dazc
'Can we just have home-share for people that understand how to be good
neighbors...'

Nice idea but, speaking from experience, it can work the other way around.
I've stayed in a few AirBnB's where the neighbours have been arseholes.

Hosts also, on at least one occasion.

------
greggman
What's frustrating with AirBnB in Japan is AirBnB lets them lie about how many
bedrooms they actually have. The excuse usually given is that Japanese count
rooms differently but that is 100% provably false. As someone that's lived
here 12 of the last 20 years you can see it's provably false by visiting any
Japanese realtor or apartment listing site where there is zero ambiguity about
the difference between 1 bedroom, 1 bedroom with a living room, dining room or
both, and a 2 bedroom, or a 2 bedroom with living room and/or dining room.

This is important because of privacy. If it says 2 bedrooms it should actually
have 2 bedrooms. Not a one bedroom and a living room with a sofa.

The fact that AirBnb endorses this really speaks to the integrity at AirBnb
which AFAICT is fairly low (have documented lots of other similar issues with
them)

~~~
fjsolwmv
AirBnB was founded on TOS violating abusing Craiglist users with spam.
Integrity is not how you growth hack a unicorn startup.

------
tnolet
In Amsterdam they already set the limit of allowed rental days per year to 30.
Just last month the new city council announced they will completely forbid
AirBnB in certain neighbourhoods. As someone who studied and worked most of
his life in Amsterdam I welcome these measures a lot.

------
mike-cardwell
I used several Airbnbs in Tokyo, Kyoto and Hiroshima last year. The first one
we arrived in, in Tokyo had signs in the lift saying that Airbnb was not
allowed to operate in the building, which was a bit of a stressful start.
Nothing came from it though. The places in Kyoto and Hiroshima were fine, but
it's made me weary of using Airbnb again.

------
ko27
Official AirBnB reply: [https://press.atairbnb.com/supporting-travelers-in-
japan-aus...](https://press.atairbnb.com/supporting-travelers-in-japan-
australia-and-new-zealand/)

------
bane
They'll probably be back after registering. The new law is pretty reasonable
and AirBnB is actually following it. This is how this is supposed to work.

------
bitL
AirBnB never had many listings in Japan in the first place; when I was
visiting there I always went with the agencies that specialized in short-term
apartment rentals; those were best for price/quality ratio if you spent at
least month there. And you could even get typical traditional Japanese
apartments that way near important cultural landmarks. And observing typical
Japanese customs like trash collection of certain types on certain days at
precisely designated spots made you feel quite integrated to their modern way
of life.

~~~
reustle
I've previously lived in Tokyo over a year (many shorter trips) mainly in
AirBnBs. Which agencies would you recommend?

~~~
jupiter90000
Also interested in an answer for this. I've looked up some in the past but not
sure how good any of them are.

------
kevin_b_er
Many of these are not "home-shares", they're hotels.

------
dsfyu404ed
As someone who grew up in a tourist area I support governments and communities
that fight tooth and nail to not have a proliferation of tourism friendly
housing (at the expense of the rental market no less) or allow other things
that increase the market share of tourism relative to other local industries.
When tourism is a large local industry it has tons of negative effects on the
community that generally result in local government that doesn't have much
reason to do a good job doing what it should do and plenty of reason to do
things it shouldn't. It's bad in the short term that get made worse over
generations.

edit: Yes I know I didn't provide any specific examples and that this
viewpoint will be foreign to those of you who go somewhere for vacation and
think it seems nice (yes, that's the point, to seem nice enough to get you to
spend your money here, that doesn't mean it's actually nice or nice for the
people that live there).

------
a_t48
That's a bit of a shame. I get where they are coming from, but the place in
Ueno my girlfriend and I rented out was cute and we didn't hold any wild
parties, even if I did get the evil eye from some old guy in a convenience
store.

~~~
hrktb
How did it go for the trash ? recycling rules ? balcony usage ? Did you
check/pass the kanranban ?

Genuinely, resident building are so different from hotels I wonder how smooth
it is for the residents to have random oversea people passing by even only 180
days a year, even if they are polite, well educated and well intended.

~~~
enra
Also stayed exclusively in Airbnbs when traveling in Japan.

The hosts usually explained the rules how to sort the trash, including the
removal the cap on the water bottles, and showed where to put the trash (on
this random trash pile next to the building). Not sure about the balcony
usage, but I'd would probably use common sense and not be yelling there or
using it in the middle of the night. Also I don't smoke but seems as smoking
goes, the rules were pretty liberal in Japan.

I don't see these being issues, if the host explains the customs, obviously
you cannot expect that everyone knows all your countries rules. On a side not
its interesting how many different ways there is to sort trash.

------
John_KZ
That's a great example that clearly demonstrates that local law can be
enforced, even on companies like AirBnb. I hear lots of arguments on "You
can't enforce the ban", but it's simpler than ever to just do that.

~~~
lovemenot
Yeah. There's effectively never been Uber or similar in Japan either.

People just respect regulations and they generally do work very well.

~~~
jorvi
I'm European, and in general I like (well thought out) regulations, but in the
case of the taxi industry Uber is actually not a bad guy but a huge blessing.

In a lot of countries (80%+) taxi drivers are rude, try to price gouge, try to
scam you or try to take longer routes.

Uber takes _all_ of this away. The rating system ensures drivers are polite.
The estimate € (plus route tracking) ensures they don't take the scenic route,
and the fact that all payment happens via the app means there is no longer 'my
meter is broken/the credit card reader is broken/sorry I miscalculated its €10
more'.

And because Uber is global I can use the same app wether I am in Paris,
Prague, Hanoi or Seattle.. which means I don't need to install and learn 3
different apps.

Edit: to be clear, I am aware why Uber gets such a bad rep, and as a tech
company they might deserve it, but as a taxi company they are absolutely top
notch.

~~~
krapp
>In a lot of countries (80%+) taxi drivers are rude, try to price gouge, try
to scam you or try to take longer routes.

Made up percentages don't count as credible data, unless you can cite the
objective and peer-reviewed analysis that demonstrates that over 80% of taxi
drivers are "rude, try to price gouge, try to scam you or try to take longer
routes," you're just trying to disguise your opinion as fact.

Which is fine, but just say what you mean - that you imagine most taxi drivers
in most countries are probably rude.

~~~
jorvi
> Made up percentages don't count as credible data, unless you can cite the
> objective and peer-reviewed analysis that demonstrates that over 80% of taxi
> drivers are "rude, try to price gouge, try to scam you or try to take longer
> routes," you're just trying to disguise your opinion as fact.

There is little to no such data, but we can extrapolate from two things: 1.
Uber, Lyft and co. would never have grown globally at such an astronomical
rate (and eaten the taxi branch its lunch) if there wasn't a large demand for
a 'clean' taxi experience, and 2. Wether you are aware of it or not, taxis and
their drivers are one of the most oft complained about branches of industry.
Seriously, ask 100 random people who have travelled internationally about
their taxi experiences, and I guarantee you a large contingent will mention
the same pain points I did.

On a sidenote, I did not 'try to disguise your opinion as fact'. Its a normal
figure of speech, when you (and others) experience almost nothing but bad
experiences with something you present it as 70/80/90% or 3/4 or 4/5th or
whatever is 'bad'. Trying to shut that down with a quasi-strawman adds
absolutely nothing to the discussion, except for appearing pedantic or
combative.

> Which is fine, but just say what you mean - that you imagine most taxi
> drivers in most countries are probably rude.

Sans the imagine, considering I've traveled most of Europe, a lot of Asia, and
a little bit of North America. Add in experiences from friends who have also
been to those places and/or S. America, Australia, etc., then yeah.. a pattern
starts to make itself clear.

~~~
svennek
> Uber, Lyft and co. would never have grown globally at such an astronomical
> rate (and eaten the taxi branch its lunch) if there wasn't a large demand
> for a 'clean' taxi experience

In my country the main selling points of the pirate-taxis (and they have been
judged that by the courts) was a fare half the price.

They do that by skimping on things that real taxis need (by law), for example
customer insurance (private insurances don't cover passengers, if they paid
anything to drive with you), professional level drivers licenses, multiple
yearly DMV checkups, sick pay to the drivers, maximum daily driving hours,
taxes etc.. ...

We know for a fact (due to the court ordering Uber to give the data to them)
that the biggest Uber earner in in Denmark took home just shy of 590 thousand
dkk (93k USD) in a year. A real taxi needs to have revenue like that in a
quarter to have any chance to survive...

I drive 50+ trips per year (mostly in Copenhagen, but also a few in other
european cities) and sans 1 (one) slightly bad experience in the 5+ years, I
don't see how the Ubers are better (other than cheaper). I took around 20
uber-rides until I went back to the taxis...

I do welcome the kick in the butt, that Uber gave the taxis, as multiple new
taxi concepts have risen (all real, legal taxis btw).

------
paulsutter
Airbnb’s statement is disingenuous. They state the rule clearly then claim
surprise it’s being enforced:

> hosts are required to register their listing and display a license number on
> their listing page by June 15th in order to stay active on our platform...

> Unfortunately, the Japanese government issued a sudden announcement on June
> 1st instructing any host without a license number to cancel upcoming
> reservations that were booked before June 15th–even though many of these
> hosts are actively engaged in the registration process or awaiting their
> license.

From: [https://press.atairbnb.com/supporting-travelers-in-japan-
aus...](https://press.atairbnb.com/supporting-travelers-in-japan-australia-
and-new-zealand/)

~~~
icebraining
How so? If the rule was applicable from June 15th, it is surprising that it's
being enforced before that date, no?

~~~
paulsutter
The authorities would know if a flood of license approvals about to happen
before the 15th. But surely there’s not, and on the 15th these units become
illegal. Two weeks notice seems much more fair to travelers than waiting till
the 15th and cancelling.

Rules are followed in Japan. Allowing a grace period for unlicensed rentals
was really fair of them.

~~~
icebraining
Your opinion on the fairness of the new order is immaterial to whether Airbnb
is feigning surprise the rule is being enforced. They are not.

~~~
paulsutter
Airbnb gambled that the rule wouldn’t really be enforced by accepting
reservations past the 15th for unlicensed units, their gamble didn’t pay off,
and now they’re pretending to be surprised.

Yes that’s the aggressive stance when 80% if units are at stake, but it’s
Airbnb who is inconsiderate of renters here. They accepted reservations that
were bound to be cancelled.

~~~
mercutio2
[Edit]:

I have just read AirBNB’s response, stating that they ARE cancelling
reservations, in a rolling 10-days-out fashion.

The linked [cntraveler.com] article is wrong. So, paulsutter is right, it is
disingenuous for AirBNB to have allowed those bookings knowing the law would
go into effect on June 15th.

And I personally am screwed, crap.

Leaving original for posterity

[pre-Edit]:

Huh? Did you read the article?

They specifically say that existing reservations are not cancelled.

Good thing for me, too, because I have three different existing AirBNBs booked
in Japan after June 15th.

------
bradleyjg
Maybe now they can start complying with New York law.

~~~
humanrebar
New York doesn't enforce double parking, jaywalking, and other "good neighbor"
and safety laws. Why is this one special?

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _New York doesn 't enforce double parking, jaywalking, and other "good
> neighbor" and safety laws_

I am not disturbed by double parkers or jaywalkers. I _was_ disturbed by unit
4F and 7B's weekly round of "drunk Europeans screaming in the hallway at 3AM".

~~~
humanrebar
I've seen people almost die due to double parking clogging up the street. I'm
sure accidents _do_ happen from that.

------
Tiktaalik
We're seeing municipalities push back in cities as big as Barcelona and
Vancouver, to places remote and small as Haida Gwaii.

Cities are going to regulate out the concept of people buying apartments
purely to wholly rent them out 100% of the time on Airbnb. This is a very
significant portion of Airbnb revenue.

I have trouble seeing how Airbnb's valuation isn't going to have to be scaled
back when big parts of their business are regulated out of existence.

------
xab9
To me it seems that AirBnB is cannibalizing its own business.

They are not interested in strong control over either users or landlords, for
they need more and more users - but the laxer the rules are and the more
people are using their service, the harder cities and residential areas will
fight against it.

Probably an equilibrium could've been found not for the new and lawless
startup culture fueled by their own hubris.

------
bb101
So how many of us now have a better idea on how to spend 48 hours in Chicago
as a result of the article promo? And who else thinks the deep dish pizza from
Malnati's looks more like a quiche? Either way, I now have Adventures in
Babysitting on my watchlist.

------
anoncoward111
It sounds like the real problem is that dense apartment-style housing can lead
to conflicts between neighbors.

If every single person had a cheap plot of land and a cheap house on it, then
loud neighbors wouldnt be as much of a problem.

------
poisonarena
I understand all the ramifications in certain cities where the housing prices
are getting effected by airbnb, but I think in this case it is just the Hotels
strong arming because they were losing business and the Olympics are coming.

I am a budget traveler and low income remote worker and I really am glad I got
to slide in before airbnb got shafted. It's a shame that I now have to choose
between hostels and overpriced hotels, when I prefer the AirBnB experience. I
met friends my age, got to see a side of Japan outside of tourist spots, and
learned what it's like to just live in a normal house here without some
exchange program or school. Without AirBnB I would not have been able to visit
this unique country! RIP!

~~~
z2
I've got mixed feelings returning from Japan. My best and worst stays were
both AirBnB's. The best, which is still listed, came from a host who owned the
place and very thoughtfully went out of her way to share local things to do.
The worst was run by a nebulous "company" that gave us half the rooms
promised, at an apartment where residents/management had put up "Foreigners
cause crimes, please call the police immediately." signs. It turns out that
company had double-booked units in that building using another platform and
brazenly gave us another spare unit. This kind of gold rush to capitalize on
Japan's tourism boom may indeed need some thoughtful regulation.

~~~
FlavorText
Mind sharing the link to the good one? I'm sure they're jam-packed right now
if they're one of the 20% still available, but would be good to know for
future reference.

------
vasili111
When I read that kind of news, I am thinking that it is time to ban all
electric/gas engines and allow only steam engines.

~~~
Krasnol
Because all electric/gas engines are unregulated?

------
DINKDINK
“The government knows how to segregate us properly” And “Everything will be
cheaper by limiting people the ability to trade”

~~~
pjc50
qv the other thread on meaningless work, sometimes people find value in living
in a city and neighborhood that isn't _completely_ focused on extracting the
maximum economic value at any cost.

~~~
wafflesraccoon
Side point, what does `qv` mean at the start of your comment? I can't find
anything with 30 seconds of Googling.

~~~
pjc50
Sorry, "quod videt", I should just write "see also"

------
knodi
Airbnb over the years has become over priced crap.

