

Fertilizer that fizzles in a homemade bomb could save lives around the world  - pwg
https://share.sandia.gov/news/resources/news_releases/ied_fertilizer/

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brandon_wirtz
Most people don't have Alkaline soil. That's why you put lime on fields,
because it is too acidic.

We don't use Iron Sulfate as a fertilizer because it is absorbed by the plants
and in things like corn the increase in Iron can make the things raised in the
soil poisonous to Children and pets.

This isn't "new". And and it isn't patentable because it is a chemical that
has been used for fertilizer in Kale and Spinach for 100+ years.

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dsl
I don't understand why everyone in this thread keeps missing this. It doesn't
matter what soil "most people" have, the place where they have all the IEDs
has highly alkaline soil that could actually benefit from this change.

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GhotiFish
IANAF, but it seems to be suggested that once land starts getting used for
agriculture, the breakdown in organic compounds you will see in farming tends
to make the soil more acid, less base.

So there are already factors that deal with the issue. Which, hey, makes the
fertilizer great for bootstrapping a farm I would guess. Not for what the
article suggests though.

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greenyoda
It might also cost many more lives than it saves. For example, if governments
outlaw conventional fertilizer but the new one is more expensive to
manufacture, then the cost of food could rise, causing starvation in poverty-
stricken areas.

~~~
khrbrt
The article is pretty explicit about it being as cheap to produce and more
effective.

 _"iron sulfate, a readily available compound that steel foundries throw away
by the tons."

"Fleming said iron sulfate in fertilizer adds iron and acidifies soil. “It
does good things for soil health. It takes alkaline soil and makes it more
neutral, closer to an ideal pH level,” he said. “The closer you get a neutral
pH, the more crops grow. Crop yield would improve significantly.

“And iron-containing fertilizer added to the soil would be taken up in crops
and help fight anemia and other iron deficiencies in people who eat them.”

The soil in Afghanistan is alkaline with a high pH, and could benefit from an
ammonium nitrate/iron sulfate fertilizer, Fleming said. “What they use now,
ammonium nitrate with calcium carbonate — which makes soil more alkaline —
doesn’t make sense,” he said."

"But he said there are some ideas about how to get the non-detonable formula,
which would not cost more to produce, into the marketplace. “We could give the
formula to a neutral party and let them work with the Afghans, Pakistanis and
others,” he said. “They could set up side-by-side demonstrations to see which
fertilizer works better. Prove it to them gradually."_

~~~
greenyoda
_"Iron sulfate, a readily available compound that steel foundries throw away
by the tons._ "

It won't be free for long. Once there's a demand for it, steel foundries will
sell it to the highest bidder. That effect has already happened with municipal
recycling: NYC once had to pay to have its recycled paper carted away. Now
there are companies that will pay good money to receive the recyclable paper
that the residents of NYC throw away. (And it's valuable enough that NYC tries
to prevent rogue collectors from stealing it off the curbs before the city's
garbage trucks can get to it.)

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whyenot
Plants need nitrogen in much greater quantities (10-100x) than they need iron.
For this fertilzer to not be used as an explosive it would have to contain
much more iron than would ever be used by plants. Too much iron can be toxic
to plants, make plants poisonous for humans to eat and cause other problems.
Another issue is that most soil is not alkaline, it's acidic, especially if it
has been used for agriculture. The sulfur in this "fertilizer" will further
acidify the soil, making it more difficult for many plants to absorb nutrients
through their roots (and in a vicious cycle, requiring more use of
fertilizer). I'm sure the people involved had their hearts in the right place,
but this development doesn't solve anything and by reducing crop yields could
lead to many hungry people.

~~~
dsl
The soil in Afghanistan extremely alkaline, adding the iron sulfate brings it
closer to a neutral pH (good for food crops, bad for things like Opium
poppies). The low iron content of the soil also leads to a high occurrence of
Iron Deficient Anemia.

~~~
whyenot
1\. It wouldn't surprise me if much of the virgin soil in Afghanistan is
alkaline, soil in arid areas often is. Once soil is used in agriculture and is
cultivated and/or irrigated, it tends to become more acidic due to the
breakdown of organic matter.

2\. Opium poppies may be better able to _tolerate_ alkaline soil, but they do
not require require it. You may be surprised by this, but _Papaver somniferum_
is still widely grown in the US as a garden ornamental, and in all kinds of
soil, alkaline, neutral and acidic.

3\. For plants, iron is a micronutrient, nitrogen is a macronutrient. A
typical fertilizer such as Miracle Grow is 0.15% iron for example. High iron
concentrations, such as those that would be necessary to make ammonium nitrate
non-explosive would be toxic to most crop plants.

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gus_massa
I have a Chemical specialization in the secondary school (but we obviously
didn't study too much about explosives).

There are some details that I don't like. The ammonium nitrate is good to make
explosives because it has many nitrogens and many oxigens, IIRC it is not
important that the ammonia is "bounded" to the nitrate (it's even only an
ionic bound).

The mix that they are proposing doen't solves this problem, the nitrogens and
oxigens are still there. For example, the potassium nitrate is an oxidizer and
can be used to make explosives (
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_nitrate#Oxidizer> ). The iron nitrate
is an oxidizer too ( <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron(III)_nitrate> ) but I
really don't know whether it can be used to make explosives.

My concern is that they tested that after the chemical reaction, there is no
remaining ammonium nitrate. But apparently they didn't test if it was still
useful to make explosives. (Note: This test can be dangerous, don't try this
at home.)

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GhotiFish
err, well the Idea here i think is that the reason ammonium nitrate makes a
good oxidizer for explosives is because of its weak bonds. The exchange of
atoms lowers the chemical energy, and lowers the fertilizer's efficacy as an
oxidizer.

I would of thought it would of lowered the fertilizer's efficacy as a
fertilizer as well... I'm not a chemist though.

~~~
gus_massa
It's more complicated. Nitroglycerine has strong bounds.

~~~
GhotiFish
damn it.

I hate chemistry.

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aaron695
Ireland (Which has heaps of money and time to waste unlike Pakistan which has
aid programs to run) tried something like this years ago, the IRA just
developed a way around it.

I suspect like all self made security experts they have created a product they
can't crack but bomb makers quickly would.

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yew
They say they're not patenting the mixture - does anyone have more details on
the chemistry?

It sounds like they've found a way to prevent the nitrate-sulfate substitution
from occurring directly in the fertilizer, which is very interesting if true.

~~~
icegreentea
Well, the compounds themselves are typically in solid phase. I would assume
that the mix is just composed of an adequately well mixed combination of iron
sulfate and ammonium nitrate crystals. If you make them have pretty much the
same size, and sufficiently small, then you make mechanical separation
unlikely/impossible.

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yew
That's certainly a possibility. I'm just wondering if Sandia has provided more
details themselves.

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hexonexxon
Al Qaeda and similar militants use potassium chlorate and sulfur for bomb and
IED making. I don't see how the fertilizer blockade on those countries has
made any difference in the amount of deadly explosions that happen in
Pakistan, Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria on a weekly basis.

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andrewaylett
I'm hopeful we'll be able to look back in 30 years time and see this
development as pivotal in helping to curb the use of explosives where
diplomacy would be more suitable.

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sakai
"... where diplomacy would be more suitable."

What do you mean by that?

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ramidarigaz
I think he means that this development would encourage the use of diplomacy
over explosives. I initially read it the other way (diplomacy being more
useful than this development).

