
Anti-Apple Anger - mh_
http://www.marco.org/2013/01/21/anti-apple-anger
======
oz
>"Our technology choices reflect our values. People willing to yield some
control to Apple for their needs are more likely to enjoy the benefits that
Apple’s products bring by exerting that control. But people who don’t like
being told what to do — people who believe they know what’s best for them,
want full control over everything, and are willing to accept the resulting
responsibilities — will be more comfortable with the alternatives."

This. A thousand times this.

Most people who know me consider me a rational guy. I'm the type that reads
LessWrong, understands cognitive biases and knows who Kahneman & Tversky are.

But I find myself with a deep...dislike of Apple. I fully admit that their
products are superb. I admire, and respect the fanaticism and detail that goes
into their products. As someone who loves money, I respect a company that rose
from the ashes to having 100+ billion dollars in the bank.

But the notion that some guy deep in the bowels of Cupertino knows what I want
more than I do makes me recoil violently. I think it's the libertarian in me.
I have an inherent distrust of, and contempt for institutions, particularly
when they want to decide what's 'right' for me. And the, dare I say _cultish_
(ate least to me) behaviour of many Macolytes only makes me more wary. It's
like the recent article proclaiming Apples 'genius' in acquiring Bill Nguyen's
team after the Color acquisition. It reminds me of the North Korea articles
I've been reading today.

Note that you'll never see any posts on HN from me engaging in any flamewars
about Apple, because as an individualist, I believe that my preferences are
exactly that: _my_ preferences. Others are allowed to have theirs. I do find
the sycophancy by the usual suspects distasteful, though.

Kudos to Marco for a very insightful piece.

------
jmduke
A lot of the elitism (or at least what I consider elitism) from Gruber,
Arment, Siegler et all is incredibly off-putting to me -- and I own a MacBook
Air, iPad, and iPhone.

That being said, I think this is an incredibly well-reasoned and well-crafted
explanation of the massive chasm between Apple 'fanboys' and Apple 'haters' --
and explains to me why, as a current zealot of the iOS ecosystem, I
nonetheless find so much Apple commentary off-putting. Really great job by
Marco and makes me much more inclined to subscribe to the Magazine.

Nothing's perfect for everyone. Some things are perfect for some people.

~~~
martythemaniak
>Apple’s products are opinionated. They say, “We know what’s best for you.
Here it is. Oh, that thing you want to do? We won’t let you do that because it
would suck. Trust us. If you don’t like it, there’s the door.”

Problem is, Apple's acolytes won't leave you alone to go through the door -
they'll follow you and keep telling you you're a _wrong_ for wanting something
different or thinking different (the irony is always lost). Some of them will
even write long and detailed blog posts about how 3.5" is the perfect screen
size, and and if you think differently, you're wrong.
(<http://dcurt.is/3-point-5-inches>), or maintain popular blogs which a little
more than a large collection of stupid, snide remarks (Gruber).

~~~
mmastrac
In all fairness, he did call out Apple on the 4" screen being less-than-ideal:

<http://dcurt.is/4-inches/>

~~~
lokedhs
He's still completely ignoring the fact that Apple in their infinite wisdom
decided that you absolutely must use two hands to zoom (pinch).

That sort of defeats any argument that they designed the phone for one-handed
use.

~~~
jxdxbx
This isn't true. You can double tap to zoom.

------
CR45H
"But I never see Microsoft fans attacking Android fans, or vice versa. And the
rise of anti-Apple anger has risen dramatically as Apple has been so
successful in recent years."

Seriously? Is he completely blind. The amount anger aimed at Google/Android
from the Microsoft camp over the past year has been deafening. For me it's the
other way around. I no longer see Microsoft fans attacking Apple (like they
used to). Now, they almost always attack Android/Google.

One more thing. If Apple didn't start the fanboy culture, they certainly took
it up a notch. Apple fanboys/girls have been filling the internet with crap
for years. Now that Android has become so popular, a lot of people that used
to feel marginalized have decided to jump on the bandwagon and they are taking
every opportunity to vent.

Overall I find this all quite disturbing but not for the same reasons as the
original author who quite honestly, comes across as a bit of an elitist. He
does make some good points when he explains that these are different platforms
with different pros/cons and everyone will never agree to use the same
platform. However, it is evident that he just doesn't know anything about
anything other than Apple. The new Microsoft products (Windows Phone 8,
Windows RT, Windows 8 App Store) are not open platforms. They are indeed just
as closed as iOS (and much more so than OSX).

In fact I wish that all of the fanboys/girls online would spend their time
discussing the real differences between these companies and what the net
effect is on users. Maybe then we could get some things fixed. For example I
am an Android user and, though I REALLY LIKE Apple products, I will not
purchase and use a device that I cannot gain root access to. The way I see it,
if it's Apple's device to control, than I am merely renting it. On the other
hand, one thing that Apple has impressed me with is how they have taken away
control from the phone companies. This is where I wish Google would fight
harder. I want to see a real Nexus device on every carrier. Anyway, I feel
these are things that merit real discussion, consensus building, online
petitions, etc....

...fanboy bickering is pointless and deconstructive. In the end we, as users,
need to forget about being fanboys and learn to be activists.

~~~
thechut
Yes, this is the exact same feeling I got from reading the article.

He can't scold people for making Anti-Apple comments while he is making an
extremely pro-Apple standpoint. It just does not come off as genuine. Instead
of more partisan arguments (to use his analogy) we need actual discussions
about each platforms respective shortcomings.

But many people are not qualified to have an objective discussion about these
platforms because in many cases naysayers have only used the platform they
prefer.

------
bitcartel
Did a horse with blinkers write the article?

> _"I’ve noticed a very clear trend among tech sites I read: Android fans are
> unusually quick to fill the comment box with rage on articles that mention
> anything positive about Apple or its products. The reverse — Apple fans
> leaving angry comments on pro-Android articles — is almost completely absent
> from the sites I’ve seen"_

~~~
doe88
I've observed (non scientifically I concede) the same thing than Marco. Also
another thing he wrote I find particularly true is the need for Android users
to try to convince others people to switch to Android as if there was no good
reason to own an iPhone. That's strange.

~~~
snogglethorpe
I expect it has a lot to do with which blogs/forums you're reading.

In my experience, the number of Apple fanboi comments _vastly_ exceeds the
number of Android fanboi comments, pretty much everywhere I've noticed.

Given that the iphone is very, very, popular, especially in English-speaking
countries (and I mostly read blogs in English), this isn't entirely
surprising: popularity, especially mass-market popularity, almost always comes
with an associated fanboi/mouth-breather contingent...

[Actually, I'm not sure I've ever actually _seen_ a real Android fanboi; most
comments I see criticizing Apple seem to be pretty purely anti-Apple, not pro-
Android per-se. AFAICT, Android is thought of as "the practical alternative,"
and doesn't tend to engender passion (including the sort of degenerate passion
fanbois represent) the way Apple does...]

~~~
sbuk
That's not even true _here_ I'm afraid...

~~~
snogglethorpe
What's not even true here?

------
brudgers
Much of the reaction to Apple can be attributed to the culture of contempt
Apple fosters among its customers and communicated through its corporate
actions. People respond negatively to being held in contempt. Film at 11.

From, "They have no taste" embodied in "I'm a Mac" to lawsuits against...well
name a competitor they haven't sued...Apple has encouraged the disparagement
of users of competing products. "Blue Screen" is most frequently used by Apple
customers on the internet.

(hyperbole)

People get angry over Apple for the same reasons they get angry at Fox News -
intellectual dishonesty for the sake of ideology. Only Gruber could attribute
the rise of flat design aesthetics to some app few people own while ignoring
Metro. PG accuses Microsoft of malfeasance in his essays on the Good.

It's never enough to love Apple. That love requires someone else be put down.

(/hyperbole)

------
rwallace
The explanation for anti-Apple anger is far simpler, and doesn't need a
reference to the actual products at all.

Anger comes from insecurity. People get angry when they feel threatened.
People feel threats come from the top dog (this assessment is usually not very
accurate, but it is human psychology). People who feel (whether rightly or
wrongly) that their side is securely on top, don't bother getting angry.

Thus, in the nineties the Internet was full of shouting about 'micro$oft'
whereas nobody ever bothered criticizing Apple, because everyone perceived
that Microsoft was winning an Apple was losing. Today, Apple is perceived as
the top dog and therefore a threat. I don't know who's going to be the top dog
ten years from now, but I do know whoever it is, that's where the anger is
going to be directed.

~~~
gbog
Maybe, but no. Anti-Apple anger can also come from people like me who prefer
open protocols, open markets, open ecosystems, and are saddened to see people
naming themselves "hackers" using tools that are obviously handcuffing them.

~~~
rwallace
I certainly agree those are valid reasons. I'm just pointing out why nobody
gets mad at Nintendo, though the Wii is even considerably more closed than the
iPhone.

------
zyb09
Ah my favorite topic, ok here we go:

I disagree.

Apple fans are the absolute worst. Not want to offend anyone here, but there's
a certain type of delusional Apple fans, also known as members of the Apple
Cult. The member strongly believes, that Apple products are perfect, flawless,
and that every other competing product is inferior and can't comprehend why
some people prefer other products. He/She will also _always_ defend everything
Apple does, spinning and twisting every news story to make Apple appear in a
positive light and often directly contradict their previous stance, when Apple
does something unexpected. These types also collect old Apple computers, like
they're trophys, and pay for a cinema ticket to watch a Steve Jobs interview.

They glorify Apples quarterly earning report and don't seem to notice that
it's actually them paying a $500 profit margin on an iPhone - or maybe they're
just happy to do so.

I know, because I've met a few in real life, and the worst thing it's
completely pointless to discuss anything related to Apples decisions with them
- it's like talking against a wall. That's why they get called Sheeple,
mindless worse ship of a corporation.

Disclaimer: I don't hate Apple, I'm happy we have 2 ecosystems, strictly
talking about the fans here.

~~~
sbuk
Nah. Android fans are worse. Take a look at sites like The Verge, Gizmodo,
Engadget and the Register. I see the behaviour that you describe from Google
fans far more of late.

~~~
sbuk
Nicely exhibited by the down vote. Stay classy HN.

~~~
anthonyb
Everything that you've posted in this thread has been either missing the point
or obvious partisan shilling for Apple. I'm not surprised that you're getting
downvoted.

~~~
sbuk
So I speak out against the herd, and in your words "shill" for Apple and my
"punishment' is a downvote? This is what Arment is alluding too. The over
entitled open-sourcer, who feels that they have a right to everything, so long
as it is on _their_ terms. You are hardly by-partisan yourself, everything
that you post is either pro-Google or Anti-Apple. What is your point?

~~~
anthonyb
Perhaps this'll fall on deaf ears - we'll see.

To date I've found that HN is one of the easier places to speak out against
"the herd"... _but_ your comment has to follow logically from the parent, and
you have to back it up with some sort of evidence or reason for people to
believe you.

For example, your most recent comment,
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5096081>. The parent comment talks about
Raspberry Pi, and how hackable and open it is, and how the iPhone is the
opposite of this, which is why it's unpopular with hacker types.

Your response doesn't make sense for a number of reasons:

a) What bubble? Nobody is talking about bubbles. And who's "we"?

b) you said _"Products like the iPhone are for consumers. That's everybody."_
Er, then who is Android for? There are lots of people who buy Android, and
lots of them are consumers too. So this statement is obvious nonsense.

c) here you're arguing against a straw man. The "hackers" aren't pissed
because lots of people are using iPhones, they're pissed because Apple lock
their phone down and then play games trying to lock in more market share, and
squeeze out more revenue from their developers and users. It's wise to
remember that there's a long history of companies locking people into
platforms or applications and then screwing them.

You're ignoring _that_ part of the argument in favor of a different one, which
is that some mythical "hackers" hate "normal" people (which is completely
untrue - they just hate "stupid" people).

d) "Using iPhones" is not anywhere near "computing". Not even on the same
continent, much less ballpark.

So - what would I have done differently in your position? Well, the obvious
one is just to gracefully concede the point - the iPhone _is_ a lot more
locked down than a Raspberry Pi.

Assuming that you want to defend the iPhone on that front, you need to find
ways in which the iPhone is also open. Hell, most people would settle for
"ways in which the iPhone is more open than you thought". If you can find
links to some of those, I'll upvote you :)

------
Steko
Marco got lost in diagnosis wonderland here. Anti-platform anger is like
anything else in the adversarial world of online commenting. People from
Michigan hate on Ohio State. People from Alabama hate on Obama. People with
PCs hate on Macs. People with Xbox 360s hate on Playstations. People with
Android hate on Apple.

If he doesn't see people with Apple hating on Android he isn't looking hard
enough. True there are more people that hate on Apple but they are the biggest
target now and that's to be expected just as there were more people hating on
MS when they were the biggest target.

------
rayiner
I think one phenomenon is that Android users have more experience with iOS
than vice versa. I've been pretty much iOS/OS X-only since 2005/2006, I
honestly don't know what's up in Android land these days. And, aside from an
ill-fated tryst with Windows Phone 8, I'm not super interested in what's
happening in Android land.

I don't feel compelled to comment on Android threads because I don't really
care. But I feel like Android users have an idea of why they chose Android
over iOS and feel compelled to educate people in these threads.

~~~
aetherson
Good call.

I live in the bay area, and originally got on board with an Android phone
because AT&T's service in this area was terrible (and, at the time, iPhone
meant AT&T). I did this knowing, at the time, that Android was an inferior
product, carrier aside.

So I spent a good deal of time watching the iPhone, watching my Android, and
watching Android catch up with the iPhone. When I recently bought another
Android phone, it was a considered opinion that, for my needs, Android was now
a superior product to iOS.

And, with that background, it's almost irresistible to tell people who've been
living in iOS land and seem to think that the state of Android today is the
same as the state of Android three-four years ago, about all the things that
I've been watching happen in that time.

~~~
sbuk
I switched for iOS to Android (a Nexus S) based on a lot of what the tech
press and users were saying on forums and I have to say that it has been an
awful experience for me. With Google dropping support for this model late last
year, I will never buy a product that they or Samsung are involved with again.

------
itomek
Oldie but i still laugh every time I read it.
<http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=macs_cant>

~~~
SIULHT
That. was. awesome.

------
capkutay
I think Apple has positioned itself well in the day-to-day life of the average
consumer, and they will likely hold that spot for some time to come.

Apple almost sold more iphones in the last 3 months than they did in the whole
year of 2010. Yet to most people Apple is also doomed and everything they're
doing is wrong.

Outside the circle of tech journalists and gadget aficionados, people want
Apple products. I hear great things about the jellybean and samsung phones and
I read anti-apple writings on the web all the time.

On the other hand, almost everyone I know with a smartphone has an iPhone. I
don't think of myself as being in a bubble, I'm a student at a big college in
a big city, and most of the people I come across have iPhones/ipods/even
iPads. Families buy eachother apple products. When I see a non-iPhone user,
they are more often not even using a smartphone, but waiting for the iPhone5
or 5S, in transition to getting an iPhone..

I don't doubt google created an amazing mobile OS, but I certainly don't see
those phones on a day to day basis.

~~~
snogglethorpe
> _I don't doubt google created an amazing mobile OS, but I certainly don't
> see those phones on a day to day basis._

The iphone is certainly a very good product, and deservedly very popular, but
keep in mind, that Android phones actually out-number it overall.

Maybe in your circle and/or location that's not the case, but around here a
huge proportion of smartphones I see people using on the train or in cafes are
not iphones.

It depends very much on where you are and the state of the local cellphone
market. I'm in Japan, and the iphone somewhat took the local makers by
surprise, but they've come back with a vengeance. The iphone still has a lot
of cachet (as do other Apple products), and probably sells more than any other
single smartphone—but there are a huge number of other smartphones available,
and the iphone doesn't dominate the market to the same extent it seems to in
the U.S.

[Over time I'd actually expect the iphone's market share to lessen here, as
other makers hone their products for the market (something they're very good
at), and the iphone's place as a status symbol slips.]

------
mhd
_Most people don’t care about technology choices as much as we do._

And this is where he lost me.

~~~
jmduke
I took _we_ to mean his blog readership, not Apple users.

Maybe I was incorrect, but I hope I wasn't.

------
swedegeek
Let's be honest here... Nearly everyone who is passionate about one platform
or another lives in some kind of glass house. Why does Arment feel it's
necessary to throw stones like this? I realize some are reading this as a more
"balanced" post, but I have to side with those considering this to be yet more
elitism as I've come to expect.

Just as anecdotally, but no less data-driven, there is an obvious counter
argument to his claim. I will concede his notion that Apple people don't spew
anti-Android on pro-Android posts. That is because, from my own informal
observations, Apple fans are too busy defending their own gates on the Apple
support forums. It is unequivocally the most combative and abrasive "help
forum" I've ever experienced.

As a person who owns and really enjoy Apple products (the MacBook Air, for my
needs, is hands-down the best computer I've ever owned... and what I'm typing
on at this moment), they're still far from perfect. Numerous times I've tried
searching for resolutions to issues, and naturally, discussions.apple.com is
typically a top result on Google. Even when finding an OP that precisely
describes the issue I'm experiencing, more often than not, responses are along
the exact lines of how Arment describes Apple's response:

 _"You don’t need that. Here, try this partial workaround or alternative
solution instead."_

Except, they usually don't "just work." And yes, I really do _need_ what Apple
broke. It took until 10.8.2 for Remote Desktop to work reliably again after
Mountain Lion's initial release. I spent hours researching and found no
reasonable workaround to get an piece of software written by Apple to work
with Apple's OS. But yet, there were plenty of people asking why that was
needed. I merely had to setup this convoluted alternative and I would be back
in business... oh, wait. That still didn't work.

In my mind, this is worse than Arment's claim, as it's Apple people getting
attacked by other Apple people for the heresy of wanting something to work.
He's railing against the anger from Microsoft and Android, but he is okay with
the cannibalism in the Apple camp?

I could go on, but I feel like I've already written a disproportionate amount
more than I actually care about this guy's hypocritical, fact-less editorials.
I guess my opinion finally got dragged low enough with this post to finally
speak up. I would suggest he looks a little closer to the mothership before
trying to paint this kind of picture. However, I can't fool myself into
thinking he'd be the slightest bit open to the feedback.

------
gbog
Disagree. Anti-Apple crowd has at least partly a very solid and rational
ground to stand upon.

Apple's much admired and followed direction is pointing exactly to the
opposite way that most hackers should prefer and push towards.

Look at an iPhone 5 and a Raspberry Pi: one goes North and the other goes
South. One had a heavy marketing and costs a lot, and cannot be opened without
breaking it. The other the opposite: it isn't even sold in a "box"!

So, now, objectively, all things being equal, tell me frankly which one in an
iPhone 5 and a Raspberry Pi should have the preference of hackers (in the wide
sense)?

And don't tell me a Pi can't be used as a phone: I am well aware of that. My
question is general, which device is more akin of hacker culture, and why?

~~~
sbuk
THis is the bubble that we talk about. Products like the iPhone are for
_consumers_. That's everybody. When it comes down to it, it seems that
"hackers" are pissed that "normal" people are "getting" computing.

------
frozenport
Its important to note that Apple, being a hardware+software, solution receives
hate from 2 sides.

Some people don't like OS X

Some people don't like paying 2x for the same hardware

I suspect that this alone contributes to a 2x increase in vitriol.

------
nsmartt
My issue is fundamentally similar to my issue with Google or Facebook.
Information and money are power. Apple is the richest company on the planet.
I'm uncomfortable with Apple gaining more money and, therefore, more power.

Their actions have often been highly disconcerting. I'm surprised that I don't
see more people who consider Apple to be dangerous.

I don't really have issues with Apple products. In my experience, they've been
of fine quality.

------
olgeni
> No, you can’t have that hardware keyboard or removable battery. No, you
> can’t install that app. No, you can’t have that feature."

"And yes, you can sit still in this drawer while I upgrade my custom rom on
the other device. But don't worry, you are _so_ elite. See you later."

------
eertami
>Apple’s products say “no” a lot.

Which is why it's so depressing that so many wallets say "yes" to apple.

~~~
general_failure
here take an upvote :)

------
niels_olson
You can't blame the artist for their fans.

