
Muhammad Ali has died - aaronbrethorst
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/sports/muhammad-ali-greatest-all-time-dead-74-n584776
======
ceyhunkazel
He is a man who have a heart that bigger than his fists. “Why should they ask
me to put on a uniform and go 10,000 miles from home and drop bombs and
bullets on Brown people in Vietnam while so-called Negro people in Louisville
are treated like dogs and denied simple human rights? No I’m not going 10,000
miles from home to help murder and burn another poor nation simply to continue
the domination of white slave masters of the darker people the world over.
This is the day when such evils must come to an end. I have been warned that
to take such a stand would cost me millions of dollars. But I have said it
once and I will say it again. The real enemy of my people is here. I will not
disgrace my religion, my people or myself by becoming a tool to enslave those
who are fighting for their own justice, freedom and equality. If I thought the
war was going to bring freedom and equality to 22 million of my people they
wouldn’t have to draft me, I’d join tomorrow. I have nothing to lose by
standing up for my beliefs. So I’ll go to jail, so what? We’ve been in jail
for 400 years.”

~~~
adnam
Well he also said that Jews are devils, the mixing of the races is an
abomination and that homosexuality is a white man’s disease.

~~~
kelukelugames
Do you have aa citation?

~~~
Keyframe
It's widely known: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJu8sVWQ-
wk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJu8sVWQ-wk)

~~~
kelukelugames
The full quote refers to all whites. I agree it is inappropriate by today's
standards, but a black man saying whites are the devil in 1969? I mean...

~~~
hartpuff
Ali's friend, Malcolm X, hardly an "Uncle Tom" \- as Ali disgracefully called
another friend he betrayed, Joe Frazier - had turned away from the anti-white
racism of the NOI by the early 60s (and been killed by the NOI as a result),
so what's so special about 1969 that excuses a supposedly intelligent man
continuing to mindlessly parrot their inane racist beliefs?

~~~
EpicEng
He had been treated poorly by whites his entire life. I'm sure you can
appreciate how that would affect a person. He was also very young and became
more tempered as he grew older.

~~~
pavalercci
I'm sure you can appreciate that you know absolutely nothing about how
Muhammed Ali was treated by whites his entire life.

Simply assuming that he was treated badly and therefore justified in his
blanket discrimination towards others is academically lazy and ethically
unacceptable.

~~~
EpicEng
>Simply assuming

I'm not assuming anything; has life has been documented time and time again.
We information from him personally, those who knew him, and we know exactly
what Louisville Kentucky was like during his lifetime. Are you saying that
unless I was there _personally_ I know "absolutely nothing" about his life?
Get real and get over yourself.

Ali was my favorite sports figure as a child and remains so. I have consumed
everything I can find about the guy. I'm willing to bet I know more than you
on the matter, but if I don't, why don't you share some of your insights with
us as well as the rest of the world?

>academically lazy and ethically unacceptable

Yeesh. I'm not sure what 'academic and ethical' standards you believe people
on a forum should be held to, but again; get over yourself. I'm sure you think
you're being extremely clever and deep with your comments here, but in reality
you're adding absolutely nothing to the conversation with your overly pedantic
comments which show nothing but your ignorance of history.

I also find it pretty hilarious that you seem to have created a throwaway
account purely to comment in this thread.

------
braythwayt
To me, this is why he will always be “The Greatest.” Not his feet or his fists
or his showmanship, but his humanity:

    
    
      Zawadzki picked Ali up at Pearson International and they were on their way
      downtown when Ali asked Zawadzki, the son of Polish immigrants, about his
      family. The Etobicoke native mentioned to the former three-time world
      heavyweight champion of the world that his mom Wanda had spent years in a slave
      labour camp during the Second World War.
      
      “Suddenly, he said he wanted to meet her,” said Zawadzki. “So even though we
      were already halfway downtown, we turned around. When we walked into our condo,
      Muhammad walked up to my mom, gave her a big hug, and the two of them sat
      together, and talked and hugged for a good 45 minutes. She told him all about
      her experiences in the camp.”
    

_“When you walked away from Muhammad Ali, you were a better human.”_ —Ed
Zawadzki

[http://news.nationalpost.com/sports/toronto-author-ed-
zawadz...](http://news.nationalpost.com/sports/toronto-author-ed-zawadzki-
recounts-how-gracious-muhammad-ali-was-attending-chuvalo-tribute)

------
tauslu
"During my more than 50 years in the public eye, I have met hundreds of
renowned celebrities, artists, athletes, and world leaders. But only a handful
embodied the self-sacrificing and heroic qualities that defined my friend and
mentor, Muhammad Ali. A master of self-promotion, he declared early in his
boxing career, I am the greatest! This kind of boasting enraged many people,
just as he’d hoped, ensuring a large audience that just wanted to see this
upstart boy taught a lesson. But it was Muhammad who taught the lesson
because, as he once said, It’s not bragging if you can back it up. And back it
up, he did. Again and again. And not just in the ring. Part of Muhammad’s
greatness was his ability to be different things to different people. To
sports fans he was an unparalleled champion of the world, faster and smarter
than any heavyweight before. To athletes, he was a model of physical
perfection and shrewd business acumen. To the anti-establishment youth of the
1960s, he was a defiant voice against the Vietnam War and the draft. To the
Muslim community, he was a pious pioneer testing America’s purported religious
tolerance. To the African-American community, he was a black man who faced
overwhelming bigotry the way he faced every opponent in the ring: fearlessly.
At a time when blacks who spoke up about injustice were labeled uppity and
often arrested under one pretext or another, Muhammad willingly sacrificed the
best years of his career to stand tall and fight for what he believed was
right. In doing so, he made all Americans, black and white, stand taller. I
may be 7’2" but I never felt taller than when standing in his shadow.

Today we bow our heads at the loss of a man who did so much for America.
Tomorrow we will raise our heads again remembering that his bravery, his
outspokenness, and his sacrifice for the sake of his community and country
lives on in the best part of each of us."

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

------
danso
After reading the NYT's obit for him, all I can think of is, wow, what a full
life and long journey. Being born after his competitive career, all I mostly
hear about is how he was "The Greatest", but not so much about his losses and
his comebacks.

[http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/04/sports/muhammad-ali-
dies.h...](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/04/sports/muhammad-ali-dies.html)

~~~
OmarIsmail
Here's one of my favorite sport highlight videos.
[https://youtu.be/072IsGDEpTc](https://youtu.be/072IsGDEpTc)

His speed, footwork, and power is just incredible.

~~~
danso
Damn...whenever I watch boxing movies like Rocky, I always think the action
and power look so fake compared to what you normally see when watching
broadcast boxing fights. But I guess if you grew up watching videos of Ali,
you'd have a higher expectation of razzle-dazzle.

~~~
daveguy
I wonder if is now ingrained in boxing training to move like that -- no one
notices a big difference like they did with Ali because everyone is trained to
move like that. Looking back through the videos I have to think that none of
the heavyweight boxers move like that today. I wonder if there will be a
renaissance in boxing where you have a whole generation of boxers moving like
Ali. Does anyone follow boxing? Can anyone comment on how Ali influenced the
state of boxing generations later?

~~~
unclebucknasty
Sadly, boxing as a sport has much declined since Ali's day, and especially in
recent years. In particular, the heavyweight division has been found most
acutely lacking for some time.

However, you are correct that heavyweights don't and have not typically "moved
like that". Even those who were relatively fast and defensively gifted (e.g. a
young Tyson) didn't move as poetically.

He moved like a boxer of a much lower weight class and, beyond even that, he
moved like Ali. Graceful. Fluid. Quick. Rhythmic. Instinctive. Check out some
of his highlights on YouTube. There are entire sequences during which he
defied opponents to hit him through head/upper body movement alone. Hands are
low and movement is so fast and well-timed that it seems to predict his
opponent's next move. It's as if he is training his opponent to punch wherever
he moves his head, and his opponent is reacting to him vs. the other way
around.

And, this is to say nothing of his footwork. He glided without effort and the
mechansim by which he changed direction was almost imperceptible. It seemed
that he was being guided on a wire versus using his legs. Back then, it was
amazing to see a man his size (or any) move like that, and it would be just as
much so today.

~~~
Double_Cast
At 1:21 and 1:35, Ali does this shuffle thing with his feet.

How does one do that? I just tried it, and I can't imagine how I would move my
feet that rapidly even with extensive training. I'm pretty lanky. Would it be
easier to foot-shuffle if I had Ali's build? Or would it be even harder
because of his mass.

And does this maneuver have a name? It seems like he does it when he's winding
up for a jab combo. To make his punches unpredictable. Am I reading his
movements correctly?

~~~
kasey_junk
One thing people underestimate about boxing is how much training goes into the
feet movement. Any boxer at that level can do things with their feet that is
pretty baffling. Training your feet and calfs in boxing is extensive. That
said one of the things that made Ali so astounding is that for a big guy he
was super light on his feet.

That foot shuffle doesn't have a name, and he isn't doing it for a tactical
advantage. He's showing off. Nearly anyone else on the planet who tried it
would have a coach in there ear ripping them a new one. But you know, the
greatest of all time gets to do things others can't.

~~~
unclebucknasty
Oh, I do think the shuffle had tactical advantages beyond showing off. It's
demoralizing to the opponent, it serves as a distraction, and it's so
unorthodox that it momentarily leaves opponents wondering what's coming next.
He frequently threw (and landed) off of a shuffle, even if not to devastating
effect.

But, I agree that it would drive most trainers nuts for any other boxer. And,
yeah, Ali's gifts and confidence made it possible for him to get away with a
lot of the kind of stuff that would drive trainers crazy (including Dundee
early on). For, instance, consistently carrying his hands so low violated a
Golden Rule of boxing and keeping the hands up is one of the first things kids
are taught about the sport.

Later, he fashioned the rope a dope and other techniques to compensate for his
then diminished speed.

Kind of reminds me of Bruce Lee. Improvise. Create. Take what your opponent
gives you.

------
signa11
"The hands can't hit what the eyes can't see. Float like a butterfly, sting
like a bee! Rumble, young man, rumble!"

rip

~~~
agumonkey
He must be chatting with Bruce Lee right now.

------
kennethfriedman
Sad day. A video that probably won't be played very often, but might be
special to this crowd: a 1997 Apple commercial staring The Greatest, during
their Think Different campaign.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n83xzu2xH-E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n83xzu2xH-E)

The video was created to poke fun at Michael Dell, when Dell was being "rude",
as Jobs put it.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hq0Ny1WgFs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hq0Ny1WgFs)

~~~
melling
I think that video is from his training in Africa for the George Foreman
fight. it might be in this movie:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_We_Were_Kings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_We_Were_Kings)

It's a great documentary.

~~~
elcapitan
Yes, it is. A great film, recommended. Trailer:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfUHYUpmTFs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfUHYUpmTFs)

It shows Ali and Foreman in preparation for their fight in Zaire/Congo (the
famous 'rumble in the jungle'
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rumble_in_the_Jungle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rumble_in_the_Jungle)).

You can see the clever Ali blend in with the local population, winning their
hearts and their cheers. Ali won the combeback fight against the younger, much
stronger Foreman in a way nobody had predicted, leaning into the ropes and
taking a lot of beating to his upper body, while giving short, fast hits on
Foremans head. After 2/3 of the fight Foreman was completely out of fuel and
Ali gave him one legendary, sudden last punch, and the giant tumbled down.

[https://youtu.be/55AasOJZzDE?t=21m4s](https://youtu.be/55AasOJZzDE?t=21m4s)

------
walru
Muhammad Ali is something we won't allow public figures to be anymore. Being
outspoken and standing up for his beliefs, against all repercussions, were his
his greatest feat(s). I hope, over all else, his contributions to the human
spirit reign over the rest of us. We need another (dozen) Cassius Clays.

~~~
mevile
> Muhammad Ali is something we won't allow public figures to be anymore. Being
> outspoken and standing up for his beliefs, against all repercussions, were
> his his greatest feat(s).

What? You think current public figures are being prevented from being out
spoken? Have you seen 50cent's twitter? Have you seen Donald Trump's? Lots of
people are being out spoken, maybe more than I personally like, but whatever
floats their boat.

~~~
GauntletWizard
There's a big difference between Trump's blowhard populism and Muhammad Ali's
firm, unpopular beliefs. Trump says things with no filter, with utter
disregard for their meaning, consequence, or congruence with the last thing he
said. I respect him for having the guts to be stream of consciousness and
throwing out each thought, but he's not, in any of his campaign, stating
policy, but just this thought process.

Muhammad Ali had much to say. He was an outspoken civil rights supporter, anti
draft activist, and convert to Islam, and a true believer in all those
thoughts even when the majority of the country, even his fans, were against
his positions. Hell, I'm against two of the three of those, and I still
respect him enormously. He had a well spoken, eloquent, and coherent speaking
style. He made you understand what his precepts were, how they shaped his
philosophy, and he came to conclusions that you could respect. He wasn't
simply outspoken, he was a good orator and a philosopher.

There's a great interview with him in The Kandy-Kolored Tangerine-Flake
Streamline Baby. Tom Wolfe is not his intended audience, but is utterly
enthralled. He comes across as genuine, progressive (in a meaning of that word
that is positive), and concerned with his fellow man (if intending to be
insular in parts of his philosophy.) He's no saint, but one of the most
genuine people in the stardom limelight.

~~~
chillacy
On being drafted for Vietnam:

> My conscience won't let me go shoot my brother, or some darker people, or
> some poor hungry people in the mud for big powerful America. And shoot them
> for what? They never called me nigger, they never lynched me, they didn't
> put no dogs on me, they didn't rob me of my nationality, rape and kill my
> mother and father... Shoot them for what? How can I shoot them poor people?
> Just take me to jail.

------
hackuser
If you want to understand Ali's genius then I highly recommend _When We Were
Kings_ , an Oscar-winning documentary about Ali's 'Rumble in the Jungle'.

After watching it, I finally understood that he wasn't just another athlete
with a big ego and mouth, but a brilliant, courageous competitor, far beyond
the rest.

[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118147/](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118147/)

------
zer00eyz
Oh man this is a bummer.

For as beautiful as it was to watch him box, it is even more beautiful to
watch him and Howard Cosell interact. The two of them were a pair, and Cosell
was one of the first if not the first to acknowledge his name change. Cosell
also stood by him when he decided to be a conscientious objector.

------
mturmon
An earlier HN article
([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9478442](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9478442)),
partly an appreciation of Ali's style, made me look up an early fight of his
from 1966:

[http://youtu.be/oJUzl0aFHZw](http://youtu.be/oJUzl0aFHZw)

It lasts only 8 minutes. The opponent is clearly a slugger who is baffled by
Ali's style. Ali moves very fast, and fights with his gloves down. I'm not a
fan of boxing, but she's right, that fight is an amazing spectacle.

------
pknerd
One of his best replies

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QE9XBovMk0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QE9XBovMk0)

~~~
typon
Holy crap that was amazing. Thanks for the link!

------
kevindeasis
He was a really smart dude. The way he marketed himself was I think the first
of his kind.

Plus he won some of his fights even before stepping in through the ring by
getting into his opponents head. Just imagine Ali going to your yard a few
days before the match in the middle of the night with a loud speaker

------
icc97
There's a couple of people in here still referring to Ali as Cassius Clay or
Mr. Clay. He's quite clear in this excellent interview talking about racism
[1] that Clay was a slave name and he was now a free man and wants to be
called Muhammad Ali.

> "How would a Chinese look named 'Robert Smith'?"
    
    
      [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtxfTEyJZg4

~~~
GFK_of_xmaspast
Lots of people still fighting those culture wars.

------
hvo
He was one of my favorite folks in the world.A very good man.I often read his
words for inspiration.He will be missed.

"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted thirty
years of his life."

"Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they
have deep inside them: a desire, a dream, a vision. They have to have last-
minute stamina, they have to be a little faster, they have to have the skill
and the will. But the will must be stronger than the skill."

"He who is not courageous enough to take risks will accomplish nothing in
life."

"It's lack of faith that makes people afraid of meeting challenges, and I
believed in myself."

------
intrasight
It would be hard for someone who did not grow up in the '70s to understand the
huge cultural influence of Muhammad Ali. The kids next door were African-
American and my younger brother and I watched several of the Ali matches. He
was strong, fast, smart, and good looking. He was outspoken and opinionated.
He was a different kind of black man than what was portrayed in movies or on
TV. He was revered by us kids at the time. If I knew nothing more than what I
witnessed in the boxing ring he would still have been revered. But of course
there was much more to Muhammad Ali than boxing.

------
rmason
I don't think any athlete will ever match Ali's impact. He could get into see
anybody. The US State department used him as back door conduit to pass
messages.

He was a big fan of basketball. He had a house outside Benton Harbor on Lake
Michigan is the southwest part of the state near Indiana. Someone passed word
to the coach of the Michigan State Spartans that Ali was a fan of the team.
Coach Izzo arranged for him to attend a game each year.

------
cmod
What's My Name?

Beautiful little 20 min doc on his life and, yes, his name:
[http://www.nytimes.com/video/sports/100000003216440/muhammad...](http://www.nytimes.com/video/sports/100000003216440/muhammad-
ali-whats-my-
name.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=clearfix&module=a-lede-
package-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news)

------
joeyspn
My biggest sports idol, rude from outside (probably because of his "job") but
inspiring, compassionate and with an enormous heart on the inside....

Superbowl 2004, in one of the classic IBM's Linux commercials, teaching Linux
(represented by a kid) how to grow up...

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BesI6NEPWlM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BesI6NEPWlM)

------
fmdos
Why the Times can produce this so quickly.

[http://www.nytimes.com/times-insider/author/margalit-
fox/](http://www.nytimes.com/times-insider/author/margalit-fox/)

~~~
danso
Here's another explainer: [http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/08/insider/when-
death-comes-a...](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/08/insider/when-death-comes-
and-the-obituary-quickly-follows.html)

The obit for Steve Jobs was initiated 4 years before his death.

------
argumentum
Some great quotes:

[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3624652/The-30-best-...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3624652/The-30-best-
quotes-Muhammad-Ali-original-trash-talking-self-aggrandizing-motormouth-
sport.html)

 _To make America the greatest is my goal, so I beat the Russian and I beat
the Pole. And for the USA won the medal of gold. The Greeks said you 're
better than the Cassius of old.' \- He said this quote after he won the
Olympic light-heavyweight gold medal at the 1960 Games in Rome_

Pretty amazing for an 18 year old .. if a bit Trump-like.

~~~
microcolonel
It's all about perspective. Trump should _jump_ on this because in spirit
they're alike; at least when it comes to a duty to succeed as a nation by
vanquishing others with competitive success.

------
xufi
A sad day. He was an inspiration for American youth for 3 decades when he was
active. RIP, the world has lost a champion

~~~
xufi
A sad day. He was an inspiration for American youth for 3 decades and being a
3 time heavy weight champion when he was active. RIP, the world has lost a
champion

------
melling
Muhammad Ali was so popular in the 1970's that they made a (not so good)
Saturday morning cartoon about him, back when most people were only watching 3
network TV channels.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_the_Greatest:_The_Adven...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_the_Greatest:_The_Adventures_of_Muhammad_Ali)

I remember watching a few of them:

[https://youtu.be/9nKpmzQZa5w](https://youtu.be/9nKpmzQZa5w)

------
hkmurakami
I remember him receiving an honorary doctorate degree on stage during my own
college graduation. He was shaking from Parkinson's, helped by his daughter,
but looked strong. This was 9 years and 3 days ago.

RIP.

------
nuttinwrong
My wife visited his home in Berrien Springs, MI. As an exchange student she
had no idea who he was. Hugging The Champ in his frail years without having a
clue... sigh. Fun fact.

------
brudgers
Great photos of the Greatest by Neil Leifer:

[http://neilleifer.com/gallery/muhammad-
ali/](http://neilleifer.com/gallery/muhammad-ali/)

~~~
brudgers
More:
[https://www.theguardian.com/sport/gallery/2014/oct/30/muhamm...](https://www.theguardian.com/sport/gallery/2014/oct/30/muhammad-
ali-25-best-photographs-cassius-clay-legendary-boxer?CMP=fb_gu)

------
runn1ng
When I read and see some interviews with people like him, it's interesting to
me how Islam was seen - not very long ago - as some self-determination
movement for black people. (Malcolm X, and all that.)

It makes sense to me of course, but it's still interesting to see Islam being
perceived totally differently today, just a few decades later. If you hear
someone mention today that he wants to make "islamic nation", your mind goes
to what is happening in Middle-East right now.

------
ck2
Don't care for people hitting each other, even if it is consensual

HOWEVER - he overcame amazing odds for growing up in a heavily racist,
segregated country and I have massive respect for him giving up his career
while refusing to serve in the Vietnam War and kill others simply at the order
of the government.

So why do we always wait for people to die to honor them - why not do it when
they can appreciate it?

~~~
gus_massa
There are a lot of small honor ceremonies, for example he lighted the olympic
torch in Atlanta 1996. The problem is that is difficult to coordinate that all
the major newspaper put an article about him in the front page. (Perhaps for
some anniversary, like the x0th anniversary of the word championship? And what
happens if he lives 10 more years?)

Also, there is some social norms that prevent criticism at the obituaries so
they are more hagiographic than usual articles.

------
manav
Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee. The hand's cant hit what the eyes
cant see. - M. Ali.

------
f_allwein
By the way, I sometimes wonder how appropriate it is to say "rest in peace".
To me, it always sounds like you assume someone may not rest in peace (i.e.
end up in hell?).

~~~
k-mcgrady
You're over thinking it. It's like telling someone to have a safe flight.
You're not assuming they're going to have an unsafe one. Or wishing someone
good luck - you're not assuming they'll have bad luck. It's just a nice
platitude.

------
zaf
I met him briefly in 1991 but will never forget. A man in the history books
now and forever. I shall look up to the sky and smile. I'm sure he is resting
in peace.

------
wrecktangle
Such an embodiment of what it means to stand up for the truth in a time it was
powerlessly rare. "Float like a butterfly. Sting like a bee..." RIP, ALI.

------
thorin
Some great interviews with parkinson
[https://youtu.be/YkM0v4lYEUc](https://youtu.be/YkM0v4lYEUc)

------
msie
I wondered if he received any experimental treatment for his Parkinson's. Or
Michael J. Fox? Are we any closer to the cure?

------
argumentum
Rumble young man, rumble. Rumble in peace now ..

------
CommanderData
A true character filled with personality and changed my view of certain
aspects of life. Rest in peace and with success.

------
maz1b
Very sad to hear this. He was a legendary person in so many different aspects
of life.

Rest in power.

------
plq
This news item currently has 260 upvotes on _hacker news_.

Think about this a little. Think and try to name anybody else from boxing (or
heck, any other sports) who could be up here. I know can't think of more than
a few people.

He was the greatest in his time.

Rest in peace, Mr. Clay. You are among the icons of the 20th century.

~~~
GFK_of_xmaspast
Why do you call him "Mr Clay"?

~~~
plq
When one converts to Islam, it's customary to change his name but generally
people hold on to their surnames. So I always thought of him as "Muhammet Ali
Clay". This apparently wasn't the case with him. Too late to edit my post
now...

------
davidgerard
This was a full page headline on BBC News earlier today as well.

~~~
UncleSlacky
He was very popular in the UK, as a result of his fight with Harry Cooper and
his appearances on Michael Parkinson's chat show over the years.

------
bitsoda
Would've loved to see him fight Teofilo.

------
maskofzorro
Rest in peace

------
tomashertus
Place the black stripe on the top. He was the greatest...

------
pavalercci
I've read Hacker News for a long time and never published a comment until
today.

Ranked by my earnings and by education I'm probably in the bottom 2% of users
on this site...but I'm proud to see today that in spite of that fact I'm one
of the very, very few who refuses to deify sports celebrities.

By and large the majority of you who throw adoration at Muhammed Ali never
lived through his era. You never interacted with him. You never experienced
him as a person other than retrospectively through his manicured public image.
And yet you revere him unsparingly, without hesitation, without qualification.

How disgusting.

It is this trait in human beings, this desire to worship and affiliate with
those one wishes to be like that enables power stratification in society...and
always will.

~~~
Tycho
One of the best qualities people can have is to see the good in
something/someone. The bad is of no value, so forget it, but celebrate the
good. People here are celebrating the things they admired about a public
figure. Likewise you can look at an online community and take heart at how
people had a shared recognition of great achievements and are able to
celebrate it together. It does no good to dwell on the negative and suppose
that people would actually deify someone or support everything they do without
hesitation in order to affiliate themselves in some way.

~~~
pavalercci
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. In defense of my mentality:

> One of the best qualities people can have is to see the good in
> something/someone. The bad is of no value, so forget it, but celebrate the
> good.

This depends on your objective. If your objective is to be liked by others -
then by all means ignore the undesirable aspects of people and things and only
acknowledge those which perpetuate warm and fuzzy feelings all around.

My problem with this behavior is that it makes its way into the democratic
process, and tends to override objective critical analysis.

I think as a society we need to respect and honor openness and critical
thought. Censoring our interactions in a manner that perpetuates some kind of
self delusion - although a happy delusion - is counter productive to progress.

> Likewise you can look at an online community and take heart at how people
> had a shared recognition of great achievements and are able to celebrate it
> together. It does no good to dwell on the negative and suppose that people
> would actually deify someone or support everything they do without
> hesitation in order to affiliate themselves in some way.

That might hold some weight, in this case, if there wasn't an overwhelmingly
disproportionate amount of grieving for someone whose life as an entertainer
made little impact on the daily lives of others.

Sure, there was admiration and fantasy spread amongst the throngs of
enthusiasts who followed the life and times of Muhammed Ali. But had he never
existed the world would be no different today.

So I think it is absolutely incumbent on me to outwardly, vehemently condemn
the intellectual class (Hacker News) for being so shallow, so superficial, and
so sycophantic. We must rise beyond this mentality as a people in order to
gain equality and value those who contribute in a more fair sense.

~~~
JakeAl
I disagree. I think everyone has their own journey and everyone must accept
and respect it for the value it offers. Just because you can't see the value
or the impact does not mean it's not there. Wings of butterflies and all that.
Ali's influence on the world is incalculable. How's that for critical
thinking?

"We must"? No, we musn't. If you don't like sports, don't watch them. I don't.

Clearly you come here with an agenda. The goal of your "progress" is by
definition regressive. Equality means respecting and defending everyone's
rights equally as individuals and not a specific ingroup, such "those who
contribute in a more fair sense." That would be collectivism and you appear to
be demonstrating authoritarian attitudes and socialist (culturally Marxist)
shaming techniques in an attempt to make people feel disconnected from the
intellectual elite as a means of coercing them to join your group/cause. We
are not your weaponized zombies, shamed into submission and programmed to
deliver your message so we fit into what you define as an elite group.

That's called 'malignant narcissism' by the way. How's that for openness?

The right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as individuals is what
needs to be promoted if you believe in free will/agency as a goal. And with
that you have to accept the good with the bad, whatever you believe them to
be.

"I'm sorry, I didn't know freedom meant people doing stuff that sucks."
\--Summer, Rick and Morty Episode 203: Auto Erotic Assimilation

------
lisper
The saddest thing about Ali's life IMHO is that he lived in a world where the
best way he could make his living was hitting and being hit by others. It is
time to recognize boxing for the barbarism that it is and retire it from the
repertoire of human activity along with bullfighting and bear baiting.

~~~
alayne
It's not barbarism when it's consenting adults. Bulls and bears do not
consent.

~~~
lisper
> It's not barbarism when it's consenting adults.

Do you think this is OK?

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumfights](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumfights)

The barbarism in bull fighting and bear baiting lies not in the animal's
absence of consent. Animals don't consent to be eaten, but eating animals is
[EDIT] not generally considered barbaric. What makes boxing and bull fighting
and bear baiting barbaric is the fact that the _object_ of the game is to
inflict pain on another living being. Many other sports have pain as a
consequence (football, rugby), but in boxing the _goal_ is to inflict pain.
The more pain the better. The ideal outcome is to render your opponent
unconscious. That, IMHO, is barbaric.

Money and social constraints also significantly distort the matter of consent.
Muhammed Ali was a black man living in an age of discrimination. His
professional prospects were limited more by the color of his skin than by the
content of his character. I think he was capable of a lot more than bashing
people's skulls in. But because society places so much value on bashing
people's skulls in, we will never know.

~~~
alayne
Plenty of people think eating animals is barbaric.

~~~
lisper
That's a minority view. Most people think it's OK as long as the animal is
raised and slaughtered humanely. I edited my comment to make it a little more
precise.

------
homero
Wasn't his daughter on a reality show about jails?

