
Why we are taking our startup to Hong Kong and other crazy stories of 2011 - LeonW
http://leostartsup.com/2011/12/why-we-are-taking-our-startup-to-hong-kong-and-other-crazy-stories-of-2011/
======
latch
I've been in Hong Kong for a year and a half. As a city, it's quite nice. Low
taxes, extremely safe, vibrant culture. Pollution is really the biggest
downside for me (you get used to the # of people quickly, and I'm from a small
city and I hate people so...)

However, professionally speaking? Forget about it. It's a horrible place for
programmers. In the last couple months I've met with 2 entrepreneurs looking
to move to Hong Kong as well as 2 founders already in Hong Kong. I
purposefully did not lead, but all four conversations immediately went to the
lack of available talent. And, we weren't talking about the lack of talent the
way it is in SF or NY (where there's talent, but it's working for someone
else), we are talking about the fact that if you could pick a dream team of
all programmers living in Hong Kong, it wouldn't be very dreamy.

Most of the senior programmers are long-time bank employees. Their X years of
experience is the same year X times. They are risk adverse and creatively
challenged. What's really troubling though is that the young programmers
(interns, new graduates) have a strong desire to work for the bank. It's
culture...working for the bank is what they want to do. Non CS students will
take programming internships because "that's what was available at the bank".

Of course you can point to some small communities or some example company, but
you really have to realize that hiring is going to be a challenge you might
not be able to overcome. You'll almost certainly have to get your "senior"
programmers from abroad, and recruiting your talent is going to be unlike
anything you've seen state-side.

~~~
Adaptive
@latch is right on about the bank coders.

I was based in Asia for 12 years hiring web development and design teams. Six
of my 12 years were in HK. Finding top talent is very challenging there. I
tended to hire young and train, anything else never worked out.

HK is not a cheap city to live in. I realize that it _can_ be done cheaply,
but that loses its charm quickly. Like, goodbye farmers markets and even semi-
affordable organic food.

Also, if anyone else is considering HK, keep in mind that the investment model
is almost purely driven by connections.

Conversely, I knew several niche development companies that had set up shop in
Thailand, outside of Bangkok, and had unbelievably low overhead and very
talented developers. That was years ago, but it always struck me as a savvy
model.

Anyone else looking at Asia should consider Singapore as well. They have some
amazing investment programs run by the government at any given time.

~~~
mbenjaminsmith
There are quite a few software companies in Thailand. I know a guy with 100+
local staff building iOS software. The problem with doing business in Thailand
is the foreign ownership laws (you can't own your company or the building it's
in) and the amount of bureaucratic red tape. The rising cost of living is also
making Thailand less attractive. I've read it's on par with Chicago now. I'm
not sure how that's measured but I could certainly live comfortably in Chicago
for what I spend in a month here. Import taxes are outrageous. I paid 150% for
my car.

I used to run a company in Thailand (not tech) but now I just live here and
run a company offshore. I've become pretty negative about the place with all
of its idiosyncrasies and don't think I'd set up another company here.

I've currently got my eyes on HK. Friends of friends have established several
business hiring locals (though not purely tech companies) there. Everything
I've heard is that it's straightforward to get setup there. It's also easy to
stay there with the various visa programs they have in place.

------
dhkl
Hong Kong has several vibrant, English-speaking startup/hacker communities
where people are passionate about building stuff and making things work.

Some notable communities to checkout:

<http://codeaholics.hk/> \- Technology agnostic programming community

<http://www.startupshk.com/> \- A tight-knit startup community

<http://boot.hk/> \- A great gathering place for hackers and builders.

See you in Hong Kong!

~~~
thomaspun
Right on! Leon, I'm connected to the HK startup folks (founders of StartUps HK
and Boot) there as well. Feel free to ping. Here is their FB group which most
communication is done: <https://www.facebook.com/groups/startupshk/> It's a
closed group but I could add you.

~~~
dhkl
Is the group still active? My request's been on pending for a while now :-(

~~~
thomaspun
Group is very active. I think they require people to physically show up to
their Startup Monday event to be added to the group. Ping me offline and I
could connect you to the group organizers. Or tweet them at:
<http://twitter.com/startupshk>

------
kloncks
As an American, our immigration policies make me so damn mad. I know both Leo
and Joel quite well, having went through AngelPad together, and they were
building a solid company that should have stayed in America.

The fact that wealth-builders, and innovative startup founders that seek to
create new frontiers can't _legally_ find a way of staying in this country is
preposterous.

~~~
jacques_chester
I regularly read the complaints about the rent in SV and think:

1\. I pay that much rent. In a small city.

2\. ... with limited programming work

3\. ... with higher expenses

4\. ... with lower wages

If I could simply move to SV to work, I would. But I can't.

------
mekoka
_Looking at the world and deciding where to go. Having no one that tells you
what to do and nothing that holds you back from not doing it._

Wherever you go on the planet, there will be people seeing a human being in
you. Welcoming you and making a son, a brother, a father, a lover, a friend
out of you.

There will also be a government to remind you you don't belong.

~~~
msutherl
There will also be a government to protect you from being mugged, killed and
discarded in the street.

~~~
ataggart
I'm curious at to what statistical facts inform that opinion. Police certainly
may show up _after_ being a victim of a crime, but being protected _from_
crimes seems a harder case to make without resorting to unfalsifiable claims
(sort of like those put forth by defenders of patent law).

------
krumjahn
I'm part of the incubation program at Cyberport in Hong Kong. You can check it
out here:
[http://www.cyberport.hk/en/about_cyberport/our_5_centres/ent...](http://www.cyberport.hk/en/about_cyberport/our_5_centres/entrepreneurship_centre).
I've been back for 5 months and I love it.

~~~
mark_l_watson
I have a friend doing long term AI research in the HK area and he talks it up
so positively that I have considered going there for 4 or 5 months to live and
work on my own projects. Does the Cyberport rent inexpensive shared office
space suitable for one person to have a nice work environment? I work out of a
home office in Arizona, and have a great working environment but living for 4
or 5 months in a foreign country probably means a small apartment so I don't
think that I would want to work at "home."

BTW, my wife really likes Hong Kong (we were there 15 months ago) so this
would be an easy sell for me to talk her into it.

~~~
Jonbuford
We have a few cowork options, and expect some more spaces to open within the
next 6 months.

BootHK (<http://boot.hk>) is my space I opened and is mostly hotdesk space for
early startups. HK Commons is a little more for established companies that are
still 2-4 people and growing. There are also more traditional serviced office
type offerings, but that isn't quite as interactive with the general
community.

------
ebaysucks
Could people from the Hong Kong startup community please comment on HK vs
Shanghai for doing a startup?

I've lived in HK during my student exchange and loved every minute of it - I
also have an employee working from Hong Kong.

At some point I'll set up teams to target Asian markets with China as the most
important one.

What are pro's and con's of HK vs Shanghai?

Edit: Thanks for all the answers! I really want to go back to HK now :)

~~~
thomaspun
Great Fire Wall which blocks Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, Dropbox...

However, I think China Government does welcome startups in Shanghai/Beijing
with more goodies and support than Hong Kong's gov.

~~~
samstave
Now that HK went back to chinese rule years ago - how is HK not behind the
same great FW?

~~~
_delirium
They still have a (somewhat) separate judicial system and government, which
results in a considerably freer media and society; for example, many of the
newspapers print anti-PRC editorials that wouldn't be allowed in mainland
China, and there are open demonstrations on things like the Tiananmen
anniversary.

~~~
pyre
Also, IIRC you have to have special papers to travel from mainland China to
HK.

------
bluekite2000
I m surprised no one mentions vibrant Vietnam with its endless tropical
beaches, amazing food, fast internet at nearly all coffee shops and friendly
people. The population is young, cost of living is still low and many big tech
companies have shops here (Yahoo, Microsoft, Intel,etc) Plus it is a breeze
getting a visa.

~~~
mekoka
As someone looking for some alternate destinations to work as a developer, I'm
genuinely curious about Vietnam. Where should I stay and what would be the
downsides?

------
jacques_chester
Personally I'd go to Singapore -- low personal taxes, no capital gains tax, no
tax on income from dividends, low regulation, lots of capital, close to both
Australia and Asia and it's a global flight hub.

~~~
dantheman
Singapore is a dictatorship, and I think one should always consider the
political and legal frameworks of a country in case one runs afoul of the law.
I don't know about Singapore, but in some countries merely criticizing the
government can get you into trouble, e.g. Thailand.

~~~
mhartl
In this context, "dictatorship" is akin to an epithet, and using it risks
short-circuiting rational discourse. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with
personal rule: Napoleon wasn't Hitler, Queen Elizabeth I wasn't Stalin, and
Marcus Aurelius wasn't Chairman Mao.

Singapore is a _de facto_ single-party state with a strong prime minister. Is
that good or bad? That depends on whether we're talking Aurelius or Mao.
Having spent the better part of a week in Singapore this past summer, I can
tell you that it was the only place on my itinerary where I thought, "I'd love
to have a place here." (The other destinations were Thailand, Dubai, Abu
Dhabi, and Ireland.) If I were to have a residence or business in Singapore,
probably my biggest fear would be not government oppression, but rather the
People's Action Party losing control, probably to the quasi-communist Workers'
Party—i.e., a triumph of "democracy" over the highly effective government
Singapore has today.

~~~
dantheman
Just to be clear, I was in no way trying to tie them to a brutal dictatorship.
But I think it's important to understand the political structure of the
country, not just the current economic/civil environment. For the political
structure may help you determine what the civil/economic condition will be as
things change, i.e. a change of leadership in an authoritarian regime will
have more of an impact on economic and civil life than a change of leadership
in a democracy (I don't know if this is true btw).

~~~
latch
You are probably better off visiting the place and getting a feel for it
rather than relying on "facts". For example, some people might see Hong Kong
as part of China and thus conclude it's oppressive. However, it only takes a
day or two here to realize that people enjoy a ton of freedom (I see protests
all the time, and haven't seen anyone pepper sprayed or arrested yet).

~~~
paulhauggis
"However, it only takes a day or two here to realize that people enjoy a ton
of freedom (I see protests all the time, and haven't seen anyone pepper
sprayed or arrested yet)."

It won't be like this forever. I think the autonomous government deadline is
50 years. When this happens, it won't be as "free" as it is now.

This is also only if the Chinese government doesn't go back on their word.

If you truly want a free country, go to Taiwan. Taipei is just as vibrant as
HK.

~~~
camz
If it helps, I'm go-authoring a book with Derek Sivers on Taiwan. Leaving next
week for Taiwan to write the book over the next month. It's an awesome place
to do business because of their low cost of living but their taxes are similar
to the US>

~~~
mhartl
Coincidentally, the main reason I visited Singapore was to hang out with
Derek. I'll be interested to see the result of your collaboration. P.S. I'm
sure it's a typo, but I love the idea of "go-authoring" a book—it has a great
ambitious ring to it.

------
albahk
Hong Kong is a great place for business and for most important purposes (GFW,
law, freedom of speech, immigration, language, etc) it is a different
'country' to China.

Another place to check out is the govt sponsored incubator at Cyberport
[http://www.cyberport.hk/en/about_cyberport/our_5_centres/ent...](http://www.cyberport.hk/en/about_cyberport/our_5_centres/entrepreneurship_centre)

Look forward to seeing you around HK

------
OoTheNigerian
Have fun guys. I am sure you guys will do well in any country.

Once I settle, I will definitely invite you to Nigeria. Your visas will be
taken care of ;)

~~~
samstave
You should have chosen "419TheNigerian" as your username :)

~~~
maxklein
That is EXTREMELY offensive

~~~
samstave
Oh jesus christ.

Has anyone introduced you to the internet yet?

~~~
jQueryIsAwesome
Oh yeah! That place where you can be extremely offensive without being
punished for it.

I am a Colombian, quick! make a joke about drug trafficking!

------
LeonW
Guys, thanks so much for all the tips and best wishes, you are amazing. If you
have any more tips on accommodation and startup circles on top of the awesome
ones mentioned, please let me know below or ping me leo at bufferapp.com.

------
medius
It's just incredibly sad when you see such people leave the country because of
immigration issues. I have been reading their posts and can say this with
confidence that Leo and Joel are just getting started with Buffer.

------
somecoolguy
Kind of off topic, but I am thinking about traveling to China (mainland, not
HK) over the summer and working on my own business while doing touristy stuff.
My business is completely online and based in the US, so I am wondering if I
should get a business visa or just a normal tourist visa. I won't be going to
business meetings or anything like that in China, but should I get a business
visa just to be safe?

------
brador
That article is a light on details...

Anyone got any specifics on the logistics of moving to HK and setting up?

How's the money flow over there? VC/angel funding space?

~~~
thomaspun
Setting up companies and working visa should be pretty easy in HK. I have
never heard anyone having issue regarding that.

There has always been funding but investors don't usually add as much values
as ones here do. The main reason could be these investors made their fortune
from other non tech business like stock or real estate real estate. They are
usually great business minded people but they may have a hard time advising
tech startups.

------
sim0n
Good luck in HK guys! Who knows, we may have to join the HK startup scene
ourselves if we also can't get a work visa, ha :)

------
rdl
Hong Kong is my favorite place in the world to live or work. If I were working
on something other than computer security, I'd have a hard time not doing it
there. I'm sure you will be very successful there.

~~~
LeonW
thanks for the enouragement!

------
hnwh
holy shit dude.. best of luck to you guys. Great story reflecting on 2011, and
congrats with how far you've brought Buffer

~~~
LeonW
thanks a ton man! :)

------
whoisterencelee
Anyone hackers here residing in Macau?

~~~
Jonbuford
I only know marketing agencies there, but haven't run into any groups of
either hardware or software hackers. Would be interested to find out what is
there as well.

~~~
whoisterencelee
I agree, that's why I want to start a hacker group in Macau

------
nirvana
We also recently left the USA because one of our party is a UK citizen. We
spent 6 months in the UK as US citizens with no problem, but when we came to
the USA, we had to leave after 3 months, or send the UK resident co-founder
out of the country at least. This visa thing is kinda absurd.

What is the visa situation like in Hong Kong? I've read elsewhere that getting
a visa for China is very difficult (this might be an area where HH is
different from CN). Are you able to get reasonably long visas so that you can
stay there indefinitely, or will you have to relocate again in 6 months or a
year?

FWIW, others have recommended Singapore, and one nice thing about Singapore is
that they have a pro-entrepreneur Visa process, though it seems a bit focused
on business that will be hiring singaporeans, so the traditional tiny consumer
internet startup might have trouble meeting their requirements.

Singapore is an expensive place to live, housing wise (though I hear food is
super cheap and super plentiful with a massive "Street food"/mall-food-court
culture).... though I imagine HK real estate isn't cheap either.

The approach we're taking is that we're going places where our core costs are
low-- apartment for the founders plus food, etc, and trying to make our funds
last longer that way, and then working with people remotely to expand our
staff.

~~~
josscrowcroft
In HK you can dive in/out pretty much indefinitely, as long as you don't (and
I really mean DON'T) overstay, even by 1 minute.

My US friends have been doing it for two years, I'm English and have been
doing it for 15 months (but we brits get 6 months at a time)

They'll screw you if you overstay.

tl;dr: HK != China.

~~~
saryant
I'm curious, what counts as leaving HK? A quick hop on the ferry to Macao or
do you have to go further like Taipei or Hanoi?

~~~
josscrowcroft
Most people do the Macau run, yeah. Air Asia flights are dirt cheap to e.g.
Bangkok.

~~~
_delirium
So when you leave you don't have to stay out for a certain length of time,
like the Schengen "no more than 90 days out of every 180 days" rule?

~~~
josscrowcroft
Not that I've ever experienced - for Brits, Yanks and Europeans. YMMV!

