
Denied Entry - antongribok
https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2017/06/28/denied-entry/
======
dang
The thread from yesterday:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14643467](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14643467)

------
jacquesm
Someone asked me today when I was going to visit the US again. I told them
_never_. That is, not until this madness stops. The US now treats citizens
from allied countries as enemies and that's just plain rude and not called
for. There isn't a shred of evidence that any of this has made America safer
in any way and it would be pretty easy to argue that it has made America
_less_ safe on account of pissing off large numbers of people both inside and
outside the USA.

~~~
jonnybgood
> The US now treats citizens from allied countries as enemies and that's just
> plain rude and not called for.

Alliances are made between governments, not the citizenry. What if the US
thinks there's a threat to it within the citizenry of an allied country? What
should the US do?

~~~
jacquesm
> What should the US do?

Focus on the threat, not ban the whole bloody country or make all travelers
from that country suffer somehow. Really this is a totally disproportional
response. Note that this _specific_ individual was blocked whereas you
hypothesize a _general_ threat, the two have nothing to do with each other
unless you're aware of the Curl author being up to no good.

------
CaliforniaKarl
Something that I was curious about, and which others might also be:

>Sorry, you’re not allowed entry to the US on your ESTA.

"ESTA" stands for the Electronic System for Travel Authorization, and is a
program administered by US Customs & Border Protection (part of the Department
of Homeland Security). It's used by people in Visa Waiver countries to submit
information about themselves & their travel plans, before they depart their
country of origin.

More info here: [https://www.cbp.gov/travel/international-
visitors/esta](https://www.cbp.gov/travel/international-visitors/esta)

Info on the Visa Waiver program: [https://www.cbp.gov/travel/international-
visitors/visa-waive...](https://www.cbp.gov/travel/international-
visitors/visa-waiver-program)

I guess Mr. Stenberg could have applied for a B-1 Visa to cover the visit, but
I thought the whole reason for the Visa Waiver program was to remove the need
for people in member countries to get a B-1.

~~~
PostOnce
The whole point of the visa waiver program is to make travel frictionless, you
just get on a plane and go -- and then here comes ESTA, wasting peoples time
and money with fruitless bureaucracy again.

I wonder how many Swiss and Japanese terrorists have had their plots foiled
due to the life-saving shield of ESTA.

How is this not a violation of whatever agreements all these other countries
signed to let us in without any paperwork, and yet they have to file paperwork
to get into the USA?

Maybe next we can quarantine all new arrivals for 72 hours in some kind of
security camp, where they'll endure an arduous interview process to make sure
they're safe -- run by highly qualified TSA geniuses.

~~~
ubernostrum
As I said in the prior thread, I'm still betting on this being a clerical
error.

I -- US citizen -- was once almost denied boarding of an international flight
because the airline's system had screwed up my passport information, and they
thought I would need a visa to return to the US (and of course I didn't have a
visa). I found this out _at the airport_. Luckily I was able to get it
resolved in time by showing the airline agents my passport, and a supervisor
was able to override or correct something to let me get a boarding pass, but
relying on the kindness and competence of front-line airport staff is risky at
best. I might just as easily have encountered someone who would tell me "The
computer says no, and I can't do anything for you when the computer says no".

------
rbcgerard
"DHS has carefully developed the ESTA program to ensure that only those
individuals who are ineligible to travel to the United States under the VWP or
those whose travel would pose a law enforcement or security risk are refused
an ESTA. While the ESTA website provides a link to the DHS Travel Redress
Inquiry Program (TRIP) website, there are no guarantees that a request for
redress through DHS TRIP will resolve the VWP ineligibility that caused an
applicant’s ESTA application to be denied.

U.S. Embassies and Consulates are not able to provide details about ESTA
denials or resolve the issue that caused the ESTA denial. Embassies and
Consulates will process an application for a non-immigrant visa, which, if
approved, will be the only way that a traveler whose ESTA application has been
denied would be authorized to travel to the U.S."

[https://www.cbp.gov/travel/international-
visitors/frequently...](https://www.cbp.gov/travel/international-
visitors/frequently-asked-questions-about-visa-waiver-program-vwp-and-
electronic-system-travel)

~~~
throwacurveball
As someone who has been through this bureaucracy — DHS, consulate, TRIP, etc.
— I can tell you that it's a huge pain.

It's a completely opaque system. There's no way to talk to anyone directly.
You can only send letters, and hope for a reply. Even seasoned immigration
lawyers will have to go through this infuriatingly slow and obtuse system of
sending letters and then waiting a long time to get a vague, unhelpful reply
in return for some nameless functionary.

In my case, there was an error in my records, and we tried to get them to
expunge the offending information. But every time we clarified to them what
had happened, we got a reply back basically _summarizing_ the issue, with no
solution. My lawyers had to keep doing this until they finally got a redress
number and a notification that something may be happening. Meanwhile, the
various government databases are not unified or even talking to each other, so
all the information about the error was apparently held by the immigration
office at JFK (or something like that), _not_ centrally at DHS, which made
everything a lot harder. Eventually we received a confirmation that
_something_ had been done to rectify the problem, but — in a kafkaesque twist
— they refused to say what, and they could not guarantee that there would be
no further problems.

To this day I am still being pulled into the immigrations office for some
light interrogation every time I enter the US. Which is whenever I come back,
since I now _live_ in the US.

The visa application process is similarly kafkaesque and characteristically
unfriendly. For example, while applying for a visa, there's absolutely no way
to contact the consulate (or at least there wasn't in my home country). Forget
about calling or visiting, there's no way to talk to anyone except by
appointment, and appointments are only for getting an interview to submit your
visa application. And what's hilarious about both the visa system and ESTA is
that they don't even guarantee entry. Visas are issued by the _consulate_ ,
but you can get a visa from them and _still_ be denied entry by DHS. As a
European used to my government being quite friendly and approachable, the
cold-heartedness of the whole thing was quite shocking.

------
projectramo
I think the reason for the denials is a change in the interpretation of the
rules.

ESTA used to be for short term visits for any reason.

I think some people in CBP now interpret it to mean a short stay that is not
"work" related.

You can look up all the academics -- which were definitely covered by ESTA --
who have had issues because some people at the border were not sure on how to
interpret them.

They are not alone. Way back in 2007 or so (so before Trump, but after 9/11),
I overheard a German visa officer tell an American that it was totally illegal
for them to work if they just came as a visitor. He had to get a work visa and
it was long and complicated.

He had made the mistake of telling her that he planned to hop over to visit
some clients.

He then said something like "oh, ok, its not a work trip its just a vacation.
Nevermind about the visa, good bye." and walked out.

I think someone interpreted the conference as "work", and that is what lead to
all this.

I think they (whoever it is) should make it clear to the officers what the
policy is, and I also think the policy should be that conferences and the like
are covered by ESTA.

~~~
YZF
The boundary between "business" as covered by B-1 visas and "work" can be
fuzzy. If you are employed by a US company and you get paid by said company
while in the US (i.e. you're not on vacation) then your trip can be
interpreted as working in the US. It's not clear which Mozilla entity is
Daniel's employer but I've seen similar situations. Companies that have a lot
of international employees traveling to the US typically know what sort of
papers or preparations need to happen to reduce the chance of these things.

Another crazy example, if you own a house in the US but you're not permitted
to work there, fixing your own house counts as work and could get you deported
banned from entry. You have to hire someone else to fix it.

Borders are stupid... And the US has been this way basically for ever. If
anything I think they got a little better vs. e.g. 10 or 20 years ago. I used
to work for a Canadian company that did a lot of business in the US and there
was some time period (~15 years ago) where any company employee attempting to
travel to the US had a lot of difficulty because those guys got it into their
heads that the company was doing something funny.

You can run into trouble in various other places in the world as well.

~~~
ubernostrum
Back when I worked for Mozilla, I often had to travel to the Toronto office
for team meetings (most of the team I was on was remote).

I always had to carry a letter to give to CBSA at the Canadian border,
explaining the difference between Mozilla US and Mozilla Canada, that I was an
employee of Mozilla US and would not be paid by Mozilla Canada, that I would
not do any work for Mozilla Canada, and in fact (I loved this bit) that I
would not be "working" (whatever that legal term meant) at all while in
Canada, only attending meetings. We used to joke that we couldn't fix bugs
while at those gatherings, since that would be work and put us in violation of
what the letter said.

------
pacaro
Horrible though this is, it's (bizarrely) better than the pre-ESTA
alternative. My brother was denied entry to the US in 2003 while traveling on
a visa waiver. At this point he was detained (without access to counsel) until
a suitable outbound flight was available, and deported. The red stamp in his
passport renders him ineligible to apply for an entry visa until 2018. This is
all on the discretion of one immigration official, with no recourse for
appeal. The justification is that when you sign the visa waiver, you agree to
all this.

Edit: my brother is not entirely innocent in all this, but knowing before you
fly is an improvement

~~~
kristianp
In what way wasn't he innocent? Did he talk back to the official, or not have
a return ticket?

~~~
pacaro
he answered _no_ to the question "Have you ever been arrested"

------
russellbeattie
Being denied entry is the same as being accused of a crime, but not being
allowed to face your acuser nor defend yourself in any way. It's infuriating
in every way, even if it doesn't affect directly. Why? Because someone,
somewhere - most likely without a shred of empirical proof - decided that it
would be "safer" if people aren't told why they were denied, because otherwise
the "bad guys" would be able to circumvent the system or some other equally
moronic rationale. We all know the type of close minded, ignorant pinhead who
made that decision, and it's infuriating they actually have any sort of
control over our daily lives.

~~~
75dvtwin
Not sure I agree with the analogy " _Being denied entry is the same as being
accused of a crime_ "

Consequence of being accused of crime is prosecution, with potential loss of
freedom (or death).

Consequence of being denied entry into one country in the world -- is not the
same (unless you are unfairly prosecuted in your own country and there is no
other country that you can go to).

Being denied to enter a country, more akin, in my view, to being denied a job
interview (and subsequent employment).

~~~
majewsky
How is "being denied to enter a country" not "loss of freedom"?

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Radim
It's popular to poo on USA these days, but I had a similar experience with
Canada.

I was about to present at NIPS (a ML conference in Vancouver) in 2010, but was
denied visa (Czech citizen - EU). No reason given. Those pesky PhD computer
scientists, we don't want them in our country, ruining our economies! :)

I also cursed a bit, but unlike the OP, didn't cry (WTF?). It's their country,
their rules, their loss (I think).

~~~
saghm
> I also cursed a bit, but unlike the OP, didn't cry (WTF?).

It's not really constructive to criticize how someone else responded
emotionally to the same situation. It's great for you that you didn't cry, but
it's not like anyone _chooses_ to cry, and there's nothing wrong with them for
doing so.

~~~
Radim
Well, that was my initial reaction, honestly. It's great for you that your
reaction was different, but it's not like anyone _chooses_ their initial
reaction. How is criticising me for it constructive?

I only wish the best for Daniel, I know the situation sucks.

------
rdiddly
Kudos to the QUIC working group for this absolutely correct response: "We
won’t hold any further interim meetings in the US, until there’s a change in
this situation."

~~~
Paul-ish
Couldn't this hurt people in the US who want to go to a conference but would
have trouble with reentry?

~~~
detaro
Since they have meetings rotating between multiple continents, the WG chair
probably already knows about all participants for which this is an issue. They
explicitly mention being aware of this problem in their announcement, but that
they deem it less critical right now.

------
idkfa
People coming to unstable states like US or Ukraine, balancing on the edge of
government collapse, should expect such things to happen with pretty high
probability. I really can't see why this could be surprising at all.

~~~
rurban
Actually Ukraine is the stable escape strategy for conferences which should
have been held in Russia. Latia is also quite popular, but Ukraine is the
usual target to escape Russia's strange visa handling. I wonder what will be
the escape country for the US situation. Canada or Mexico.

~~~
idkfa
It seems to me that Japan would be better place to hold tech conferences than
any other country right now

~~~
rurban
Been to a tech conference in Japan. Extremely expensive, and nobody speaks
English. Europe still holds the best options.

------
irq
Was it really necessary for him to refer to his Twitter follower count so many
times?

~~~
peckrob
I kinda read this as a stream of consciousness post about what happened. In
that context, it's more an expression of astonishment that _that actually
happened_ than boasting or anything.

FWIW, I had something kind of similar happen to me a couple years ago. I
posted an open letter [0] to a famous politician in my state, shared it on
Facebook and Twitter as I do with all my posts, and went to bed. Overnight, it
went viral and I woke up to an email box full of messages, tons of mentions on
various social media outlets and a couple of phone calls from newspapers and
TV stations wanting interviews.

The next few days were pretty crazy. More than anything, it was just a
shocking experience to realize that that many people actually cared. I imagine
he's had a similar experience. And, in fact, I wrote a follow up post [1] a
week or so later rather similar to his.

So yeah, I just read this as a guy who's shocked that the world cared what
happened to him. I wouldn't read more into it than a guy who's grateful that
that many people took notice.

[0] [http://www.robpeck.com/2015/06/an-open-letter-to-roy-
moore/](http://www.robpeck.com/2015/06/an-open-letter-to-roy-moore/)

[1] [http://www.robpeck.com/2015/07/what-happens-when-your-
post-g...](http://www.robpeck.com/2015/07/what-happens-when-your-post-goes-
viral/)

~~~
jacquesm
Kudos to you that is one heck of an argument and laid out in a way that it is
impossible to refute. Scary thought: those people that function as enablers of
people in power with detestable views are always ready to jump forward, no
matter how dirty the deed that needs doing.

------
DiNovi
So sad. I wish half this country hadn't gone mad

------
partycoder
By spreading FUD in this way, I wouldn't be surprised if major conferences
happening in SF start moving to other countries: Apple WWDC, GDC, Google I/O,
Salesforce's Dreamforce, Oracle's JavaOne... many people go through
significant effort to cost their travel and it's no fun that with no notice
you can get sent back home.

Really _dumb_ move.

~~~
CaliforniaKarl
To be honest, I don't think San Francisco conferences being impacted would
cause any movement in policy.

Assuming that conferences moving would even impact policy in the first place,
I'd expect Las Vegas conferences to be the ones that trigger change. Just on
the tech side, Black Hat/DefCon and CES immediately come to mind. Las Vegas
relies very much on conferences, and at least one casino/resort owner (Sheldon
Adelson) is a well-known Republican supporter.

Remember, though: This is still a low number of visitors being denied entry.
It would take a sizable number of regular attendees—or a notable number of
high-profile attendees—being denied entry to cause rumblings of change.

~~~
rurban
They started denying all Chinese visitors of security conferences in Las Vegas
in bulk a few years ago already. Our local CIA/NSA guy was very proud of it.
"Not welcome!" he said.

