

Ask HN: How to survive emotional rollercoaster & running out of money? - jtesp

Hi...first post here.  I come here from time to time to read people's stories and listen to advice from the many helpful &#38; knowledgable people around here.  Figured it was time for me to reach out, so here we go.<p>I've been working on a startup for over 2 years and have been expending ALL my time, energy and money into it for the past year.  It's been a great ride and lots of fun, but recently I feel like I'm running out of passion, desire, motivation, and most of all confidence.  I have been full of all of that up until 4-5 months ago and now I'm wondering if I'm just wasting my time.<p>Brief history:
The product is an entertainment device with an accompanying website that will be leased to entertainment establishments.  There's a physical gadget that had to be designed &#38; built from the ground up.  So it's not just a web project, there's lots of pieces to it.<p>When I tell people about it and especially when they use it, the response is always "this is one of the coolest things i've ever seen/heard of.  you're going to be a millionaire."  Sure, that's flattering and (used to be) validating...but they have no idea what they're talking about.  You can't just snap your fingers and roll out a million units and expect people are going to sign contracts.  In fact, I've been snapping my fingers, clapping my hands, running around, fine-tuning, re-thinking, testing, focus grouping, pitching, and alot more for 6 months.  And guess what?  I've only convinced 2 people to lease the thing... and at a price point so low that it will take me over a year to turn a profit.<p>This is why I'm losing my confidence and motivation.  I spent so long on research &#38; development and came up with a working prototype.  Then I spent more time improving and making it legit along with filing a patent &#38; trademark.  Lots of time and money into this project... all out of my pocket and my personal life.  I just sold my car and have enough money to cover about 2 more months of living.  So now I can't spend any more money on my project.<p>There's glimmers of hope from time to time.  I get calls from fairly high profile companies that are interested, but it's all been smoke for the most part.  This is very frustrating, because the interest is there but these corporations are so bureaucratic and elusive.  "Hey I saw your product and I really like it.  I'm going to discuss it with the marketing team and get back to you."  They never get back to me and never respond to phone calls or email.  What gives?  Thanks for the tease.<p>The bottom line is that no matter what product you have come up with, how cool anyone thinks it is, if a corporation doesn't know who you are, they don't care about you!  They'll get back to you when they feel like it.  And if you're trying to cold call them, forget about it.<p>So what's left for me is that there is some interest, but there's absolutely nothing I can do other than wait. And wait.  And wait.  And pursue another company to wait on.  Or go door to door and get rejected because "it's really cool, but it's just not in the budget."<p>Then I fantasize "If a big order does come through, how the hell am I going to pay to get them manufactured?  Who's going to handle support?  Who's going to manage things? Oh crap, will the server be able to take the load?  What if I get 100 of these out there and theres a bug or the website crashes?  Is my revenue model completely wrong?  Should I seek investors or partners?  Who can figure out how to sell this thing?  How am I going to come up with rent next month?"<p>Arrrrggghhhhh.  Please help!<p>Thanks for listening!
jtesp
======
kerryfalk
Selling is hard. Selling something new is harder. Selling something new B2B
without connections or an extremely strong value add feels almost impossible.

I've been there a few times, though I had some previous use cases as tools in
my selling bag so it was a little easier. If there's one thing I've learned
from my years of selling it's to keep firing until something hits. Keep taking
shots and don't stop, eventually someone will listen to you (Sometimes it's
just because you won't go away) and that's when you can really start
communicating. It's really hard, though (For me, anyway, and I've had some
good successes but it still feels like some other guys make it look easy).
Like entrepreneurship most people are not built for sales.

I can't give any advice on your life situation and whether or not it actually
is time to stop or not. My default position is set to 'Never give up'. If
you're having trouble getting through to someone inside a prospect company,
jump to the top of the chain - I've called/e-mailed CEOs on more than one
occasion when the right person to talk to was someone in middle-management,
all that ends up happening is they take my call and pass me down to the person
who makes the decision. Once you've been passed down you're much more
important to the person you're talking to than if you've been working your way
up the chain (Sometimes that works, too).

At a quick glance it looks like a sales problem, though. Keep firing. The
first big sale is a huge adrenaline rush, especially after walking through the
Valley of Death.

~~~
jtesp
Thanks for the advice. I'll keep firing that's for sure. I'm developing thick
skin with all the smoke and rejection. I also like your advice about starting
from the top and emailing the CEO's. How did you get their contact info?
thanks

~~~
kerryfalk
"How did you get their contact info?"

Sometimes very creatively. First, try the easy path and call the office and
ask the receptionist to pass you through. They're VERY skilled at telling you
to go away nicely so be polite and get your pitch down to one line to answer
this question:

"What is this regarding?"

"I'd like to talk to them about XYZ"

You'll probably be told to take a hike, or "He's busy, I'll pass along your
message." and you'll never hear from them. But sometimes you get through so
always start there.

When/if that doesn't work, guess at their e-mail address. This is actually my
personal favourite which I've used successfully - Trade secrets! - and send
them an e-mail that explains what you'd like to talk to them about and gives a
time that you'll call (Offer them an opportunity to suggest a different time)
and make sure you call at the time you specified. Eventually you'll get the
address right and you probably won't get a reply but it's crucial that you
call at the time you said you would.

Then all you have to do is call at that time. You'll reach the receptionist
again and now you have a perfectly acceptable answer to the question "Is he
expecting your call?". You can say: "Yes, I was in touch with him last week
and said I'd follow up with him today at this time."

That's all they need to hear and they'll put you through to them. That'll get
you in the door, the rest of the selling process still applies. Keep going,
never give up, you'll win eventually. :)

~~~
jtesp
Awesome tricks! Is there a general rule of thumb as to how far apart emails &
phone calls go? I want to be persistent, but I don't want to piss them off.
Thanks

~~~
kerryfalk
Finding the line between persistent and annoying is the skill of an
exceptionally good salesperson. I find that it's situational. On an attempt
like this where it's the first call and I've managed to get through with an
e-mail. I set the first follow-up later the next week (I usually end up
sending those e-mails on Thursdays or Fridays, just the way it works out for
me), if I don't get through at the time I said I'd call I'll be persistent and
make sure I get through within two weeks of sending the e-mail. After that
you're probably going to cross the annoying line if you become too persistent,
I never really give up, though.

Figure out what works for your personality and what you feel comfortable with
and go with that. Everyone is different and some sales people I know call more
frequently than I do (Or could with my style) and have found ways to not cross
the annoying line.

Just keep at 'er. I like to think of sales as an art of the persistent. It can
be a lot of fun and intensely frustrating all at the same time! A lot like
programming... hmmm... maybe that's just me.

~~~
jtesp
Very helpful, thank you!

~~~
kerryfalk
No problem. Good luck. :)

------
chipsy
The fear is always going to be there. It's the dark side of having an
"innovative" startup. If you can keep your head down and still get something
done even through those periods, you're doing well.

I don't have experience in selling to BigCo, but here are a few ideas for
potential research avenues.

Maybe there's a different way to "get to the right people" (which seems to be
a big issue), or maybe there's a way to leverage the product itself to
generate hype & interest from the actual users and have that spill over into a
more convincing pitch.

Maybe a "magic little feature" is waiting to be added that would change
perceptions at the corporate level. Or maybe the pretensions of interest they
show at present are just sniffing around for a potential threat, acquisition,
or knockoff IP, and you actually need to try for a different path into the
market to get anywhere - even if it's well off the "beaten track."

There are more than a few stories where startup manufacturers end up going
outside their area of focus and have to fund a complete vertical to the end-
user, because other techniques failed and that was the only way to market the
product. Which, of course, would lead to seeking investment.

~~~
jtesp
It is possible that I'll have to bypass BigCo and go straight to the consumer
before I gain any traction...but seeking investment is a whole new ballgame.
Thanks

------
rbanffy
1) If you have a meaningful patent, you may pursue other things to solve the
lack of money. There is a little less of a hurry. You may also sell the patent
to a troll - your soul will be damned for eternity, but you may become a
millionaire the first time someone steps on your particular landmine.

2) Don't be overattached to your idea. You already broke the "fail cheap" rule
by having an idea that involves hardware and a lot of development. If the idea
doesn't work out, forget it (it's easier since you have a patent)

3) It seems you already learned a lot on how not to do one thing (and may have
learned how to successfully do a lot of others). That experience is valuable.

~~~
jtesp
The patent is pending so no "real" value there just yet. I'm not toooo
attached to the idea but I'd hate to put in all this work with all this
promise just to give up. But yeah, the hardware bit is pretty tough. You're
right I have learned alot which is nice.

Thanks

------
dools
If you already have a patent and it's "launched" and you're trying to sell it,
why not tell us what it is so we can give you some qualified advice?

Based on the information here you have a problem with: marketing/positioning
and/or sales and/or product development. If you provide more specific details
of the product, the market, your current business model, pricing and sales
strategies then you might get some advice you can actually use rather than
"hey man! don't give up!!1 you're a startup man! keep it up and stick with
it!".

~~~
jtesp
Thanks, good point. Patent is pending so it's still a bit under wraps. I guess
this is more of a question of biz dev & sales/marketing. How do you sell to
large corporations such as Red Bull, MillerCoors, Wahoo's etc? It's just me,
do I need someone with more experience in corp markets? How often do I persist
without bugging? How do I approach corps and convince them to listen to me and
see my product? Thanks

~~~
dools
Sell through ad agencies. They'll want a brutal cut of your profits, but if
you're flagging maybe it's worth it. Ad agencies are already selling and have
established relationships with those sorts of companies.

Ad agencies quite often also have splits between "above the line" and "below
the line" campaigns. Traditionally they call their "below the line"
departments Agency Name DIGITAL (for some reason). Basically "below the line"
refers to any campaign that isn't print, radio or television. Things like
bluetooth proxy marketing, SMS, trade promotions and competitions, that kind
of thing and the below the line guys are always on the lookout for hot new
tech that they can flog into their client base. Bluetooth proxy marketing
never took off because there were problems that were embedded in the market
(most people have bluetooth off or hidden and then iphones came out without
bluetooth and really screwed the pooch) but that didn't stop a hell of a lot
of marketing agencies selling in bluetooth proxy campaigns to some pretty
major brands.

If your technology is actually _good_ think how excited they'll be!

~~~
jtesp
I've tried this in the past with no luck getting through to them. I like the
advice and may try this avenue again with my new found description of my
product. What's the best way to pitch an ad agency? I've gotten the run around
with them alot as well. Thanks!

~~~
dools
How many did you call? When cold calling around a 5% success rate is quite
good, so if you called 100 agencies and got 5 meetings you'd be going well.

Also how big were the agencies you were targeting? And were they the "digital"
agency or the "above the line" agency? You'll have more luck with agencies
that already do trade promotions through SMS, Web and other "tech" solutions.

So maybe "ad agency" is the wrong word - you want marketing agencies and
probably more specifically the ones calling themselves "digital marketing".

(warning: I'm from Australia, terminology may be different ... )

For example: a few years ago I got on the phone to sell some SMS services. I
wanted to sell to real estate agencies, so I started calling them and asking
to speak to the person in charge of marketing. I called around 20 RE agencies
and got one actually talking for long enough that they said "We use WORLD
FAMOUS AD AGENCY for all our SMS and MMS". So then I called WORLD FAMOUSE AD
AGENCY (which is a global marketing/ad agency with both above and below the
line services) and spoke to them, and they were _sort of_ interested, like
didn't blow me off immediately but as you said, kind of "run around", but one
thing is they weren't interested in SMS, they were interested in MMS.

I called my SMS provider and asked if they could do MMS, they said no, but I
should call LARGE SMS PROVIDER IN AUSTRALIA. So I called them and asked about
MMS for WORLD FAMOUS AD AGENCY, but LARGE SMS PROVIDER actually gave me the
full story: that WORLD FAMOUS AD AGENCY uses UNHEARD OF DIGITAL MARKETING
AGENCY who use TINY TECHNICAL GATEWAY PROVIDER who use LARGE SMS PROVIDER.
This was just an off-hand comment, so I called UNHEARD OF MARKETING AGENCY and
pitched MMS to them at a price point I thought would be undercutting the
competition.

I got a meeting with them, but they realised that I wasn't doing the MMS - I
was using the same guys that the guys they use now were currently using -
basically because I wasn't presenting technology I had created but technology
they had already seen. We had a good laugh about it and I got some web/hosting
work out of them.

Now I didn't end up selling them the MMS, or SMS but this was the level of
marketing agency that would talk to a small, independent operator, and also
that really explored every new available technology such as Bluetooth, SMS,
MMS, Web, trade promotions etc. rather than huge ad agencies that are directly
talking to the big brands. They generally hold a relationship with the big ad
agency, then the big ad agency has the relationship with the brand.

Short story: just start smaller down the food chain. You'll find that big
agencies are rarely doing all the work themselves - at some point it's always
just a lonely dweeb sitting at home coding in his underpants.

~~~
jtesp
That's good advice. I need to ramp my efforts and expect to be denied. I think
I'm at the point now where I can take off all of my other hats and focus on
just trying to sell this thing. I've just been stuck in the trenches for so
long, it's kinda like...what now? Thanks

~~~
dools
Yeah pick up the phone. It's hard but sometimes it's the only option. You can
gee yourself up by watching this Mixergy interview with Tom Rossi :)
<http://mixergy.com/tom-rossi-molehill-interview/>

~~~
jtesp
Thanks.. I'll check out the vid.

