
Death of a Troll - prostoalex
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jan/28/death-of-a-troll
======
lucidrains
Haha I'm the owner of the site. Surprised it made it to hacker news. There's a
whole world out there with countless stories unravelling that the naked eye
can't see. I'm very happy to have had a special glimpse into one of these
worlds.

~~~
6stringmerc
If you've got the time, I'd like to get some reflective thought from you:
Based on your glimpse, what did you learn about people, online communities, or
morals and ethics that you believed or didn't consider before?

~~~
lucidrains
I wish I had something eloquent to say here. But what I've realized that the
online world is not any lesser or greater than the real one, it's just a
completely different one with it's own social dynamics. People impart virual
actions on each other with real consequences.

Otherwise I don't think I have special insight into people's morals and
ethics. People remain complicated. You just get a better chance to see them in
a different light when you expose them to a different medium.

Can't wait to see how people will behave in VR worlds, if it were to take off
;)

~~~
malkia
Thank you for being honest in your answer. Often such questions feel to me
like - so how does the wine taste, or the beer - it's fuckin' hard for me to
describe - it usually goes - well bad, or good...

------
buro9
On the forums that I have run, I have seen 2 deaths faked.

The most recent was in December 2014 where a person claiming to be the partner
of the guy who had allegedly died was then asking for contributions to help
cover a funeral.

At the time it sowed a fair degree of mistrust, and the only way the community
was able to move on was to pull together in secret to prove conclusively
whether or not the person had died. What this meant is that about 50 people
spent a chunk of time checking morgues, hospitals, location hints, police
reports and other details until not only did we have an overwhelming amount of
evidence it was faked, but could actually prove he was alive and well.

But then what? What do you do with someone who has done that?

The only answer that was palatable to us is that the person should be
permanently excluded from the community.

It's taken the real death of another person to remind us that not everyone is
like that and to restore a lot of the trust and faith in each other.

The damage a fake death does to a community is significantly more than the
damage the person who faked it does to themselves. And you can be sure that
the person who does it will lose a lot of friends forever and find it hard to
find a place in which someone doesn't know someone that knows.

The world isn't a big enough place for someone to get away with this now, it's
all interconnected.

~~~
hga
_But then what? What do you do with someone who has done that?_

Report him to his local police? Collecting money on that basis is criminal
fraud in lots of localities.

Otherwise, ugh, yeah, not much you can do besides serious shunning.

------
danso
A bit pedantic...but I couldn't help but think, WTF is going on with the Epic
Mafia's website? The article describes the troll as effortlessly hacking the
site, including locking mods out of their own forum, and sending them emails
with links that unban friends upon clicking. The smallest site operator can
throw up a phpBB board without such issues...It sounds like Epic Mafia is
running on a custom written app that is full of SQL injection vulnerabilities.
I hope they've gotten them fixed up before trolls external to the community
prey on them.

This is not to say that the troll is just some script kiddie. It sounds like
he has some serious social engineering chops, besides programming experience.
I'm guessing this is the fake newspaper website he made to post his own obit?
[http://www.sctribune.com](http://www.sctribune.com)

~~~
bshimmin
If you visit one of their fora (eg.
[https://epicmafia.com/forum/36](https://epicmafia.com/forum/36)) and open
your browser's console, the message displayed indicates the kinds of troubles
it sounds like those poor moderators have had to deal with (specifically
addressing the "social engineering" part of your comment, I think).

From a quick look at the source, it seems like the forum pages have the same
fairly minimal markup as the rest of the site, which is slightly indicative of
its being a custom forum app rather than something battle-tested (but I could
be completely wrong, of course).

------
lmm
Mafia/werewolf is one of those games that tends to get out of hand (Diplomacy
is the other big one, at least for me). I played a few games online, but
realised it was bad for me - whichever side I was, I thought about nothing
else while the game was running. When I was hospitalized my thoughts weren't
on my physical problem but on how I'd be letting my team down. Games are fun
because they're games, they're supposed to remain circumscribed - when a game
starts to take over your life, it's time to stop.

~~~
busterarm
Diplomacy is the only game where I've deliberately toyed with an opponents
mental state in order to win. I knew that a key backstab combined with some
carefully worded global press would cause the player leading the opposing
alliance to have a meltdown. I did it anyway. Best German victory game I've
ever had.

It worked so well that he got despondent and stopped talking to anyone in the
game. Within two phases my global victory was assured.

Diplomacy is the most absolutely fascinating game, but I have mellowed out
some and stopped playing - some newer games also have great strategy without
the time commitment and mentally/emotionally taxing gameplay.

~~~
beobab
Diplomacy was banned at my house because it _always_ caused tears and angry
outbursts, often within moments of the first set of orders being revealed,
always before the third set, and I can't even remember a game going further
than five moves.

The lesson I learned from this game: Don't play it with people you like.

~~~
protomyth
Colonial Diplomacy was a pretty good variant that had a much different vibe to
it. Less anger and less negotiation. If Diplomacy is a careful rock climb,
Colonial is the 100 yard dash.

My only hate when playing Diplomacy is running into people who are OK with
group victories. Those people suck the fun out of the room and cause the most
problems.

~~~
busterarm
Given the time involved in playing out a live game I'm okay with 2-player
victories.

Very frequently when everyone is off the board save 2 people it can be boring
to play for 2 hours to figure out who the victor is.

~~~
protomyth
I'm fine with it as a time saver, but I've run into one two many people who
actually play for joint wins.

------
bobby_9x
I think one of my problems with all of this is that many communities allow
people with unchecked mental illnesses to continue to manipulate and harass
everyone around them.

I ran a meetup group with a few other co-organizers and it's amazing the
amount of abuse people will take.

We had members that would come into the group, harass the rest of the members
and continue with inappropriate behavior during our meetups.

We had one guy that would come in and basically corner any girl in the group
and ask them out. During the meetup he looked like he wanted to hurt someone
(he had angry looks on his face all the time), and wouldn't really talk to
anyone or get to know the members.

After confronting the member, it continued. Since I was running the group with
other people, I told them we needed to kick this guy out of the group. They
outright refused. They felt that we shouldn't be exclusionary and that this
would be 'mean'.

This guy eventually left when he was trying to get into an ivy league school
and he sent us a blank entrance form and wanted us to fill it out for him. He
sent us all angry emails and never came back.

I left the group shortly after this because I couldn't be part of a group that
didn't protect its members.

More communities need to kick people out for inappropriate and harmful
behavior.

~~~
amoonki
I've heard that this is somewhat common in nerdy communities, or at least
common enough that someone felt moved to write about "geek social fallacies":
[http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html](http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html)

~~~
CM30
It's not really common in nerdy communities as such, just mostly those
somewhere between the mainstream and the incredibly niche. There's an
interesting TV Tropes write up on that here:

[http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheLawOfFanJackas...](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheLawOfFanJackassery)

------
dragonwriter
"In real life, ..."

"His real life and his virtual life were completely separate."

I think we need to stop validating the delusion that the activities one
engages in online are somehow _not_ part of "real life".

~~~
nsns
This is certainly correct vis-à-vis the _real_ implications, but usually not
the behavioral tendencies. In a way most "virtual lives" seem more similar to
the real life of actors and public figures, i.e. persona-oriented.

~~~
taurath
Its certainly more experimental. Thats what you lose when privacy goes away.

------
pavel_lishin
I've moderated forums before. Small ones, nothing like the scale of Epic
Mafia, but there was still drama, there were real friendships, and there were
trolls.

Fuck this guy.

Even in "death", trying to do something he thought might be helpful, he ended
up hurting a lot of people. I have no sympathy for him.

The article mentioned that he talked about getting into therapy, but I had a
hard time understanding whether the depression was something he actually
battled with, or if it was just part of his persona; regardless, I hope he
gets into therapy and _knocks this kind of shit the fuck off_ , lest he die
friendless and alone. I don't hope for this so that he can live a full and
happy life; I hope for this so nobody else gets harassed and doxxed.

~~~
iSnow
Aww, come on. That idea that therapy is not going to help anything and
ridiculing the therapist is absolute bog standard behavior of depressed
persons - I'd go as far as saying it is part of being depressed.

~~~
pavel_lishin
Sure, but Eris lied about _anything and everything_. Pretending to be
depressed and suicidal is probably the easiest way to get sympathy, which is
cruel not only because you're an asshole for lying about being depressed, but
also because it casts doubt on people who are actually suffering from
depression as well.

I wonder how much of what Eris told the author was verified. Is he actually
going to church? Does he actually have a Pennsylvania girlfriend?

------
6stringmerc
> _His real life and his virtual life were completely separate._

Whoa, whoa, whoa - that's maybe something a person like Eris would say, as
some kind of defense, but even after faking suicide, getting a fresh start,
and going back? No, they're not separate. That's an addiction[1].

This whole story reads like a functioning heroin addict who finally can't hold
it all together anymore. I completely understand there's a great deal of
trauma and history to acknowledge - depression and physiological issues are
not minor things to be brushed aside in discussion. Context does matter.

All that noted, what a selfish way to go through life. What a perfect example
of lessons to teach young people about interactions online, in that shared
community values (morals? ethics?) aren't baked into the online experience -
in fact, quite the opposite. The freedom can be abused, and having some
personal buffer zones is important, otherwise a person will end up lying to
themselves and others like Eris, saying that they have a real life, which is
just one of the many lies they will tell to make themselves feel better.

[1] Speaking from experience in online gaming community multiplayer Half-Life,
which was a significant social outlet in conjuntion with the GamersX and
eventual stand-alone [R]age Board for Elites. A lot of this story is familiar,
both good and bad memories. RIP Neo Babson Maximus.

~~~
EC1
Some people just like it. It's not an addiction, there's no "reason", it's
just fun to be a dick online. Why does nobody ever think of this? There always
has to be some sort of grand underlying psychological reason.

You're reaching much too deep into it, even comparing it to Heroine addiction.
Just, wow.

~~~
bobby_9x
"it's just fun to be a dick online."

Because someone who would go to those lengths to just 'be a dick online' has
an underlying psychological problem. They get off on it, and it's not
something a healthy society should want to continue.

~~~
jsmthrowaway
I would contend that:

(a) everyone universally fantasizes about nonconformity at one time or another
(go ahead, disagree),

(b) almost everyone has too much of a stake in their life to actually follow
through on it, so they bottle it up,

(c) a number of hobbies exist to "blow off [that] steam" or otherwise find
catharsis, but not everyone finds these,

(d) those who troll like this have found their hobby that works for them and
are actually more psychologically healthy than those who have not.

Just a theory. I've known some trolls who are easily among the smartest,
sanest people in the world, and who are totally normal in all other aspects of
their lives. Some are dear friends. This activity has been described in these
terms by more than one of them. Countercultural behavior is practically a
rhythm throughout history, and trolling is the Internet's counterculture,
which can be mean because of anonymity. Some people go too far with it, yes.
Some people go too far with anything, though.

My point is be careful ascribing psychological illness to something you do not
understand. _That_ is crazy. Trolls don't care what you think. If you and many
others respond by calling them crazy, what are you really saying? Think about
it. Appealing to a good and decent society that ought to do something about
this menace is pretty strange, too.

I have trolled before. I'm not good at it, but I have. I can vouch for the
positive feeling it produces and I've come to terms with what that means about
me and my self. This is the thesis of numerous psychological works as well as,
say, _Fight Club_ (it's uncanny how well that story fits the big points I hit
on, including taking it too far and plurality of self, and I don't think
anyone disagrees that Palahniuk was onto something).

~~~
6stringmerc
> _Trolls don 't care what you think._

False. Trolls derive joy from the grief of others that they have inflicted.
That's what trolling is. See also: Sadism

Being a 'Contrarian' is different than trolling, but that takes some mental
work to see how it can be constructive rather than simply a knee-jerk habit to
elicit a negative response.

~~~
jsmthrowaway
I meant they don't care about your opinion of them personally; otherwise, you
are mostly correct.

------
orionblastar
I am mentally ill and have to stay away from some forums. They are not
moderated and when someone finds out I am mentally ill they call me names and
troll me. I would try to report the abuse and nothing is done. I would try and
troll back. It is very unhealthy and these sort of environments just socially
conduction people into becoming trolls.

Hacker News is different were the users mod posts and comments and flag them
for administrators that do a good job at moderating. I don't have the same
problems here that I have on other sites.

If someone is being a troll a dick or a jerk, moderate their comments and
posts, and let them know why you are moderating them. Ban then if you have to.

------
Spearchucker
It felt a bit surreal reading that, and reading the comments here. I know that
many of us seem to spend more and more of our time seeking validation online
(a state of mind I already struggle to understand), but this is a lot darker
than I'd imagined.

~~~
6stringmerc
Speaking of dark, I see this story as somewhere in the middle.

Here's the dynamic: There's the 'feel good' stuff of raising money for good
causes or getting people to send letters to a sick child - all of which takes
online validation to spread - and then there's the 'dark side' where those who
are vulnerable and seeking validation online can be exploited and driven to
suicide. A Mother-bullying-neighbor-girl case comes to mind, and I don't think
it'll be the last.

It's not a new phenomenon to be seeking attention - that's pretty much hard-
wired in some people's composition - but the online dynamic (+ influences by
Kardashian-esque mentalities of fame uber alles) has added a new wrinkle to
figuring out how to deal with such compulsions.

------
tronje
This was a lot more interesting and than I thought it would be. I never
thought I'd see such a romantic story about a forum troll... Seems like most
people involved are now in a better place than before. Good for them.

------
at-fates-hands
EM doesn't really sound like a place for unhealthy, depressed people. Yet most
of the characters in the article all seem to have psychological issues
themselves, including the main character, Eris.

------
mdni007
I feel like I just watched a whole movie

~~~
VLM
Better than a movie. Its not a remake, reboot, sequel, or formula. A startup
should be able to disrupt Hollywood. There are stories out there.

The author needs an editor, and an agent.

~~~
6stringmerc
Yeah but in my version of the story Eris dies at the end.

~~~
VLM
Too predictable, too morality fable. Better off with the truth.

~~~
6stringmerc
Nope, audiences expect a certain level of payoff and just when it seems like
he's in the clear, like things have turned around and they can maybe
sympathise with him, BAM.

------
CM30
I've seen quite a few cases like this online, where people on various forums
have faked their own death. Sometimes it's for attention (someone literally
faked that they were dying of cancer to get people to make Youtube videos of a
game they were working on), sometimes it's just wanting to leave the community
(someone else faked their death in a car accident to stop working on a project
that others were pressuring them about).

Either way, the linked article was an interesting read. Least partly cause it
felt like watching a documentary with the wildlife or civilisation replaced by
forum/online game goers.

------
herbig
Really interesting, but a lot of grammar errors and runwithfire gets doxxed by
the author within the article. Don't papers have editors anymore?

~~~
talideon
You might want to do a search for the term 'The Grauniad'.

~~~
herbig
Ha, that's pretty awesome. Still going strong.

My main issue with the article is that despite only using pseudonyms, the
author easily revealed the real life name of one of the individuals by quoting
her Twitter account.

Maybe the author doesn't understand technology, but this shouldn't have
slipped by editing. Which really leads me to believe there was none.

------
SFjulie1
pero non vero pero bene trovare

EDIT : Ho! The comments seems to say the guy really existed.

Btw; should I tell the author that Eris means the goddess of discordia
(misunderstanding that becomes conflict) and not of chaos. Which make the
choice of the pseudonym even more interesting ... for a troll. I would have
chosen Hermes (god of the pranks, liers, merchants, ambassadors, thieves,
crossroads, boxing, and messengers).

And that is brother Ares is the god of war // dreadful conflicts (he is re-
used as the leader of the knights of the apocalypse in the bible).

So bad St John never took the time to be versed enough in greek mythology to
know that the goddess of intelligence always win vs Ares/Ires.

I sometimes think the christians/jews/muslims lacks something compared to the
greek civilisation when it comes to dealing with our fears.

------
TheBranca18
The article was well-written and gave me the feeling that I traipsed all over
the various subjects' lives. As someone who has done his fair share of what I
feel to be innocuous trolling, I'm glad I've grown up.

------
dawnbreez
I can appreciate the skill involved in faking his suicide. Kind of a dick
move, though. I've had someone threaten to kill himself before; that one was a
bit more selfish, as he was pretty clearly trying to guilt me into staying in
a relationship with him, but I digress.

I don't know what to feel about this story.

------
krylon
I have to say this article was quite well-written. I couldn't stop reading,
even though I really wanted to.

------
Kenji
That stuff happens in every community, but it's particularly present in
communities with high occurrences of mental health problems. That's why you
don't trust unconfirmed information. I cannot take it seriously anymore when
people 'die'.

------
malkia
The Boy Who Cried Suicide?

------
xyzzy4
So did he actually die or not? The article was somewhat unclear.

~~~
mrkipling
The article was entirely clear - he did not die, he faked his own suicide.

~~~
xyzzy4
I'm on my phone so it wasn't easy for me to see that.

