
Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity - ComputerGuru
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160310-why-killer-whales-should-not-be-kept-in-captivity
======
Tiktaalik
> In line with this, several decades of observation show that orcas are not
> naturally violent towards humans. There are no recorded cases of a wild orca
> killing a human.

In a recent BBC Attenborough documentary (I think Frozen Planet) there was a
sequence where they showed teams of killer whales swiftly swimming just under
the surface to create a wave in an attempt to knock a seal off an ice flow so
that they could eat it.

After the main part of the documentary they had a "making of" component that
showed how the film crew got the shots and made the film, and they showed the
killer whales trying to do the same trick on the tiny boat the camera men were
on to try to knock them into the water.

~~~
funkyy
Attacks on humans by Orcas happens. Its that they do not eat humans, once they
realize its us, they let go and swim away. They need to taste us first,
especially if none of the members of group haven't tasted or interacted with
humans before.

~~~
azakai
It's not just that they don't eat us, it's also that they haven't killed us
for other reasons.

For example, a human happening to stray close to a young orca might be
confused as a threat to it, which could trigger an attack by a parent. Yet,
despite there being lots of orcas in the ocean, no violent altercation between
a wild orca and a human has led to a human death.

That this hasn't happened even once is remarkable, especially given the
massive size and strength of orca. Other large mammals often kill humans, and
not just as food, for example, hippos.

I don't think we know exactly why orcas have never killed humans, but I would
guess their intelligence has something to do with it.

~~~
Tiktaalik
One explanation could be that Orcas and Humans simply don't come in contact
that often.

Orcas are common where I live in British Columbia, but you really don't have
that many swimmers around in contrast to tropical areas. Additionally, the
local resident orcas eat salmon and I don't think they'd consider humans to be
a potential food source. Transient orcas eat seals, and I could imagine them
confusing a human with a seal just as great white sharks do. Maybe the
migration patterns of transient orcas don't line up with when and where people
swim.

~~~
azakai
That's certainly a factor. However, orca are not limited to cold climates,
even if they are found more there. Their natural range includes all oceans,

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killer_whale#Range_and_habitat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killer_whale#Range_and_habitat)

and they can encounter humans not just when the humans are swimming - which is
rare in cold climates - but also when they are fishing.

Furthermore, there are also practically no cases of other dolphins than orca
killing humans, and human-dolphin encounters are not that rare. For example,
even in the times of ancient Greece, dolphins were known and considered very
friendly,

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphin#In_history_and_religio...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphin#In_history_and_religion)

Other dolphins are of course significantly smaller than orca, but still very
powerful when in the water.

I don't think there is an obvious answer for why wild orca have never been
seen killing a human, and practically no other dolphin either. It's an
interesting mystery.

~~~
Tiktaalik
An additional reason could be how they find they prey.

I’ve read that most of the time shark attacks are somewhat accidental with the
shark biting to find out what something is, but not continuing the attack.

It could be that the echolocation abilities of toothed whales provides them
with a superior ability to discern a human from their typical favoured prey
and they don't make mistakes.

It would be ambitious for a dolphin to kill a large animal like a human and
that’s since that’s not their typical hunting behaviour, I can understand why
dolphin attacks are not common.

On other hand an transient orca would often eat human sized animals. Even if
I’m right that echolocation would allow an orca to discern between a seal and
a human, why wouldn’t they give the human a bite to see if they tasted any
good? It is pretty weird mystery that there have been no recorded attacks on
humans.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Perhaps humans smell bad.

------
sschueller
"There are currently (December 2015) a total of 56 orcas held in captivity (23
wild-captured plus 33 captive-born) in at least 12 marine parks in 8 different
countries." [1]

"SeaWorld holds 23 orcas in its three parks in the United States and owns (at
least) a further four at Loro Parque in Spain (ownership of Adan and Morgan
not verified). At least forty-five orcas have died at SeaWorld." [1]

[1] [http://uk.whales.org/wdc-in-action/fate-of-captive-
orcas](http://uk.whales.org/wdc-in-action/fate-of-captive-orcas)

------
cphoover
I agree that killer whale's shouldn't be kept in captivity, but than on the
other hand, I also love me some bacon. Pigs are also sentient creatures with
high intelligence yet we see them as a food source, and thus don't really care
about their conditions in captivity.

~~~
funkyy
Pigs are meant to be kept as farm animals. They were selectively domesticated.
Same with chickens, sheep, cows etc. Problem with Orcas is that they are not
use to live in captivity. They were just caught in the sea and forced to do
tricks. Its same with large wild cats - they have been not selectively chosen
over decades to join the human society.

~~~
rosser
Nothing is "meant" to be kept as a farm animal. The choices we've made about
which animals we keep as livestock, which we keep as pets, and which we keep
in zoos (or, per TFA, only slightly oversized swimming pools) are in
absolutely no way derived from some sort of teleological mandate.

~~~
vacri
> _Nothing is "meant" to be kept as a farm animal._

Modern sheep are. If they're not sheared regularly and their fleece is allowed
to grow, they end up suffering quite a lot - they are not suitable for living
in the wild, and in the other direction, are also not particularly suitable as
pets.

Yes, nature is not a thing with intentions, but modern sheep are a combination
of natural processes and humans (who do have intentions) meddling with things.

------
namenotrequired
There are no real arguments here that do not apply to a large amount of other
animals kept in captivity. But I guess we have to start somewhere.

Edit: grammar

------
darklajid
My wife keeps hitting me when I (intentionally, to mess with her) call these
creatures 'killer whales'. The name doesn't help, really.

The subtitle is 'Keeping orcas in aquariums deprives them of crucial aspects
of their lives, and in some cases it can even prove dangerous to humans'. BBC
seems to know what these creatures are called, but prefers to use 'killer
whales' in the title. Why? That's messed up, both in general and for this
particular piece.

~~~
akavi
> BBC seems to know what these creatures are called

Yes, they're called both "orcas" and "killer whales", with the latter being
more common.

And on that note, do people really parse "killer whales" as "whales that kill
(people?)". I'm pretty sure I don't; my brain treats the phrase as an opaque
semantic unit meaning "those giant, black and white dolphins".

~~~
darklajid
So, two things. First of all: Even if 'killer whale' is more common, I don't
think that this kind of name is making a good case for a 'pity the social
creatures trapped in a cage' article. I'd try to avoid it, if I wanted to make
people more aware of the problems outlined in the article.

But - obviously that's a cultural thing as well. I just checked the English
Wikipedia and it happily lists Orcas as 'Killer Whales'. The German Wikipedia
[1] however calls them 'Orcas' or 'Sword whales' (Schwertwale, translating
word by word here) and explicitly says (my crappy translation, original to go
and ask Google Translate about is below [2]) "The animals have been referred
to as Killer Whales and Murder Whales by Whalers due to their seeminly brutal
ways to hunt for prey".

So maybe it's a bit of both? Bad publicity in general with a name like that
and using a name that isn't common and generally ~obsolete~ in my home
country?

1:
[https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwertwal](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwertwal)
2: "Die Namen Killerwal und Mörderwal wurden den Tieren von Walfängern gegeben
und nehmen Bezug auf die oft brutal anmutenden Jagdmethoden dieser Raubwale."

------
dpflan
_Blackfish_ is definitely a provocative documentary on this topic of killer
whale captivity.

~~~
tn13
Sadly that documentary is one sided and what appears to be motivated
documentary. We need to hear the other side too.

~~~
user_0001
The other side? That good money can be made by keeping animals in substandard
conditions for their complete well being (mental and physical)?

:-\

------
cm3
Is there some animal which should be kept in captivity? For instance, I don't
understand how it's accepted to cage birds and keep them from flying. It makes
no sense to me. Please explain, as I'm sure there's a valid reason, but if you
try to look it up you end up on animal rights activist sites that don't
explain much.

~~~
Synaesthesia
People also shouldn't be kept in captivity.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
I disagree. People who pose a significant threat to wider society should be
incarcerated IMO, either for safety or punishment purposes. Locking up animals
that have caused no significant harm seems wrong unless there is some other
reason, eg food production.

Personally I'm fine morally with eating non factory-farmed meat; keeping a
massive creature locked up just to use as part of a show to me is morally
objectionable.

Zoos seem terrible places on the whole; safari parks are acceptable to me
though. I remember with great sadness my first visit to a zoo (in the UK, as
an adult) seeing a lion in a tiny cage pacing up and down.

------
tn13
Being one-issue fundamentalist is always a bad thing. A sweeping statement
"killer whales should not be ..." does not seem convincing.

No one is even trying to put all killer whales in aquarium. Having few of them
where humans could watch them is a good thing. Where else would my 5 year old
know about these giant creatures, after all he needs to do something for their
preservation.

Watching wildlife up and close is a great experience just so we could
empathize with their needs. I cared a damn about Polar Bears or Orangutans
until I saw them up and close at San Diego zoo. Now I am much more willing to
donate money that helps their cause.

Besides if an animal is entertaining for humans I think that is a great
evolutionary trait that can help those animals survive. I don't see how else
that d __ _f_ *k Panda would have survived on earth.

~~~
fnovd
>Having few of them where humans could watch them is a good thing.

For humans, maybe. How is it good for orcas? Isn't the issue here that we are
denying agency from intelligent beings?

~~~
smegger001
As a species it very good thing as it provides awareness of them and lets the
public learn about them and want to protect the species as individual animal
it kinda sucks.

~~~
fnovd
You could argue that the goodness of awareness outweighs the badness of
captivity, but you can't argue that the captivity itself is good. If there
exist other ways of spreading awareness, then what is the value of captivity?

------
jkot
How many men are kept in captivity?

------
carapace
They are sentient. It is slavery.

~~~
LeifCarrotson
On the one hand, I wish I lived in an era of human history when technology had
improved to the point where we could explore or communicate with distant
planets and meet other sentient life forms.

On the other hand, our treatment of lifeforms of varying difference to
ourselves already on our planet is deeply troubling. The thought of that
culture spreading across the galaxy like a disease is horrifying.

I have a pet dog. I think I treat her well. Will my descendants look back on
this and compare me to my not-so-distant ancestors who were racist or sexist?

~~~
dpflan
Here is an article about a Beluga whale that began to mimic human speech:

[http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/story-one-
whale...](http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/story-one-whale-who-
tried-bridge-linguistic-divide-between-animals-humans-180951437/?no-ist)

Also, In the "Animal Minds" episode, Radiolab recounts a story of divers
saving a net-entangled whale, and the whale in turn "thanks" each diver. It's
a good show, and the examples included are thought-provoking. If you found
this story intriguing, I recommend giving this Radiolab episode a listen. If
not, the stories leads to what is intelligence and connection possibilities
across species, and the topic of Spindle Neurons is presented which are
explored as a connection between high and low order parts of the brain.
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spindle_neuron](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spindle_neuron))

_

 _The Goods_ :

1\. The episode: [http://www.radiolab.org/story/91701-animal-
minds/](http://www.radiolab.org/story/91701-animal-minds/)

2\. A related follow-up about whales:

[http://www.radiolab.org/story/149761-whale-saying-thank-
you/](http://www.radiolab.org/story/149761-whale-saying-thank-you/)

~~~
alanwatts
What are your thoughts on Jon C. Lilly's work?

------
junto
If SeaWorld really believed that they needed to capture these animals in order
to study them up close in captivity then they wouldn't need to commercialise
the study into some Disney-esque circus. Even in zoos animals aren't force to
learn tricks to impress the posting visitors. SeaWorld is a travesty.

Or they could just be honest, and about that they are just a Disney-Sea-Circus
and the science is just an excuse to keep the dollars rolling in.

No more of these animals should be born into captivity, and if possible, we
should at least try to release as many of them as possible back into the wild,
possibly as their own pod.

------
ahoyfuckers
Humans should not be kept in captivity either, yet we do it to ourselves with
sedentary lifestyles

~~~
fnovd
If you are doing it yourself, it isn't captivity.

------
noondip
No one is "meant" to be tortured and abused. I find you reply to be morally
abhorrent and absolutely disgusting.

Right now, at this very moment, on American highways, there are no less than
5,000 concentration camp trucks. Trucks that we’ve constructed. Inside these
trucks there are living, terrified, innocent beings (such as) cows, pigs and
chickens. These trucks are being driven to concentration camp slaughterhouses
that we’ve carefully constructed all across America. When the trucks arrive,
the animals are so frightened they won’t even get off the truck. They’re not
stupid. They know what’s next. So people go on the trucks with electric prods
and force them to walk down the chutes to their own death. Or if the animals
are small enough to manhandle, like chickens, we’ll just grab them off the
trucks and toss them inside. Inside, these innocent, living beings are hanged
upside down, fully conscious. In other words, they go in alive against their
will and come out chopped up into hundreds of pieces. I think this type of
behavior is inexcusable and unbecoming of a species that claims to understand
right from wrong. The animals have not done one single thing to us to deserve
the wrath and the cruelty that we hurl on them.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nt4lweBJTQs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nt4lweBJTQs)

~~~
logfromblammo
I find your reference to "concentration camps" in relation to livestock
finishing feedlots and slaughterhouses to be tremendously inappropriate.
Please find another way to shock and horrify readers into treating food
animals more humanely.

It might not have been your intent, but you are reducing the victims of
_actual_ concentration camps to the status of food animals.

~~~
Synaesthesia
I think it's correct, in fact livestock farms are worse than most
concentration camps.

~~~
logfromblammo
Except that their purpose is not _human genocide_.

If you do indeed believe that battery farming of livestock for meat production
is worse than _human genocide_ , we cannot have a rational conversation about
ethics or animal rights, as we do not agree on the necessary foundation
premises.

~~~
Synaesthesia
We must differentiate between concentration camps and death camps.
Concentration camps are just large prisons, death camps are for genocide.
Also, food farms are for animal genocide.

