

"Ender's Game" movie faces a boycott - smoyer
http://www.wired.com/underwire/2013/07/orson-scott-card-boycott/

======
dsr_
I liked Ender's Game when I first read it.

Then I thought about it.

Ignore anything else the author has done: in this particular story, he poses a
conflict between survival and ethical behavior, and illustrates it
repeatedly... by having characters choose survival over ethics. He makes them
heroes for it.

Well. That's a brave stance. Except... that every time a character is given
that decision, it is also clear, whether or not the author intended it, that
there was a third path that could have solved the survival problem ethically.
Maybe multiple paths.

It's not clear to me that Card actually thought about that, though, which
reduces the story to what it actually is: a tale of organized child abuse,
hero worship and genocide, with a "hero" who doesn't understand what he's
doing but gets a magical redemption that he does nothing to deserve.

(Although the last clause is probably intentional.)

~~~
dllthomas
Did you ever read the sequels? Society only judges Ender favorably in the
short term.

~~~
jlgreco
After giving in and reading Ender's Game for the first time, I didn't like it.
I thought that Card was using children as main characters as an excuse to
avoid character development (just having your child character learn something
is a way to fake it, the character remains one dimensional while learning
something concrete about the world.)

I told people this and they told me to read Ender's Shadow instead. Same
complaint, the characters are shallow, no matter how vivid on the surface.

So then I decided to pick up a Card book outside that series, and read The
Memory of Earth. _Stunningly_ bad. Seriously hack work. A few years later I
looked it up, turns out all he did was plagiarize The Book of Mormon and add a
nominally sci-fi theme. What the hell?

Every time I complain about Card I am told that I just need to read more Card.
No, not anymore.

~~~
dllthomas
I wasn't advocating anything. I was just saying that the grandparent was odd
presented as a critique of the book, when the author spends the next three
books examining those issues.

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EnderMB
It seems like a terrible thing to do to the hundreds of potentially nice
people that worked hard on this movie.

People will boycott this because of peer pressure, and to follow the crowd.
People don't boycott the countless movies based on Roald Dahl books, even
though it's very common knowledge that he held strong anti-semitic views.

Yes, I think his views are terrible, but that's not going to stop me enjoying
his work. His literary output has nothing to do with his views. Enders Game is
a fantastic book and I have high hopes for this movie; not just that it'll be
a good port to the big screen, but that it'll help the careers of a number of
young actors.

~~~
anonymous
When I first read the title, I thought they wanted me to boycott the movie
because it wouldn't honour the book. Turns out it's because Orson Scott Card
is an influential asshole who doesn't like gay people? I'm not sorry, and this
is just petty poop-flinging. Hollywood as a whole is full of assholes and I
don't see what makes this one special.

~~~
sneak
Some fraction of your ticket price will likely fund the oppression of others.

~~~
scotty79
Doesn't it always?

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Shivetya
I cannot recall the last time I refused to see any movie because of the off
screen views of anyone involved? To be honest, I am more inclined to watch
movies when others start screaming boycott.

However some groups are more prone to take offense than others because they
have found it an effective means to quiet opposition to their point of view,
regardless if they are right or wrong. I would prefer that instead of
attempting to bully others into your point of view you just shut up. As in, be
reasonable or go home

~~~
sdoering
Well you see. If anyone screams boycott, I am inclined to investigate. And
then my findings are used to decide, what I am going to do.

And after investigating, I have to say, that I would not watch the movie.

The same for me is, if someone staring/directing was a know member of say
scientology. As someone promoting an organization, that clearly goes against
every value I honor should not earn money from me, that would then help said
organization.

So I would not want my money to help someone that intolerant.

If people I know would go there, I would ask them, if they knew, that with
going, they support someone that intolerant, someone being that derogative to
gays.

But this would then be their decision to make.

------
ckozlowski
Without weighting in on OSC's views (as those are well covered elsewhere), I
thought I'd point out something regarding the salaries and pay of those who
worked on the movie, the support of which keeps coming up.

For anyone working on the film, stagehand, technician, engineer, whathave you,
those people are already paid. They collect a salary throughout the years
they're working on the film. They don't go unpaid until the movie releases,
and hope for the best.

So for all of those men and women "in the trenches", they're a sunk cost, and
won't feel the financial effects of how well the movie does or not. This is
why some production houses end up posting losses on films. Even in those
industries, the effects on those people are negligible. Movies are a
journeyman industry, and quality work on a film is independent of viewer's end
perceptions of it. By the time the movie is ready for release, those
professionals have already moved on to other projects.

In fact, those who will feel the effects most keenly are not those at the
bottom, who are already paid, but those at the top who's income is coming from
the sales now that the film is completed. For OSC, who is most assuredly
receiving royalties, this could be in the form of a much reduced paycheck. For
the backers of this project, it could be a much smaller profit margin than
anticipated, or even a loss.

~~~
cageface
A lot of film studios pay crew bonuses for films that succeed at the box
office. So a boycott in this case might actually take money out of the pockets
of the rank & file.

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steve19
I wonder if the people signing this would also boycott anything run or owned
by Middle Eastern royalty where laws that Card promotes both exist and are
enforced.

~~~
erikpukinskis
I'm someone who has spent a lot of my life trying, often failing, to "be
good". More and more, it seems like an impossible goal:

On the one side you can retreat to the woods and live off of roots and berries
trying not to do any direct harm. But then, depending on your privilege, you
leave on the table so many opportunities to steer the ship of society in a
less harmful direction.

Or, at the other end of the spectrum you can yield all reaponsibility for your
direct actions, instead throwing yourself into the wheeling and dealing of
systems of harm, trying to invest what privilege you have to gain leverage so
that you can make a bigger difference, focusing only on some theoretical
calculus of your global influence, measuring yourself by your imagined net
global effect.

Or, more likely, you pick something in between. In the end, we all make a
personal decision about what we are willing to sacrifice.

I often use oil, even though I know it's harmful, because I think my boycott
of it would cost the world more than it would gain. I could be wrong, but
that's my best guess based on my (flawed) understanding of my self and my
world.

And I may boycott Ender's Game and I do not think that's hypocritical. It's
just an acknowledgement that there are limits to our power and we must choose
our battles.

~~~
Amadou
My approach has been that if it is easy to do, I had darn well better do it.

To illustrate - since I was a teenager I realized that the war on drugs was
manifestly wrong. I chose not to participate in any aspect of the war on drugs
as best I could. When I was fresh out of college, most forms of employment
required a drug test. So I did it, reluctantly, but I felt I could stand on my
principles as a pauper or compromise and live a reasonable life.

But once I had FU money in the bank, I felt that it was my obligation to
refuse all future drug testing because the cost to me is now practically nil.
Since I can pick and choose the jobs I take, it is my moral obligation to
never compromise again.

A corollary to this approach is that anyone who shares my ideals and chooses
to give up the comfort of an easy life for those ideals deserves an enormous
amount of respect because whatever character flaws they may have, they are
"walking the talk" more than I was willing to.

~~~
jiggy2011
The real problem with drug tests though is that those in a good position can
refuse them, but those in a less advantageous position don't get so much
choice.

~~~
Amadou
I guess it wasn't exactly clear from the way I phrased it, but I'm not just
refusing the tests, I'm refusing to contribute my labor to the betterment of
companies that impose them on their employees.

If I were to encounter an employer willing to make an exception to their
policy for me, I would have to consider the greater implications. I might
accept such a job as long as I remained free to tell anyone and everyone that
an exception had been made so as to undermine the policy going forwards.
Maybe. Hasn't happened yet.

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ZirconCode
I really loved the book, and I would really love to see the movie adaption,
especially since OSC waited so long to personally pick a director he though
would portray it well.

It's interesting because I remember in a later book in the series (Xenocide?),
there were many off-planet colonies, and on those homosexuality was the norm
and heterosexuals were seen as "weird". I don't recall any aggressive stance
against gays in the entire series. Maybe I missed something?

I think as long as the book series doesn't mirror the authors perspective, it
shouldn't play that big of a role.

~~~
adaml_623
"I remember in a later book in the series (Xenocide?), there were many off-
planet colonies, and on those homosexuality was the norm and heterosexuals
were seen as "weird"."

I don't have a copy of Xenocide at the moment to check but are sure you're not
thinking of 'The Forever War' by Joe Haldeman?

~~~
e12e
Sounds more like Haldeman to me as well (alas I don't have either book on hand
at the moment).

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waylandsmithers
I'm not sure I entirely sign off on this complete lack of separation between
art and artist. I understand that context is important, but does the artist
really need to be a good person for his or her work to make you think, or feel
an emotion, or be entertained?

I don't think it's entirely fair to assume an inherent bias or hidden agenda
in the work based solely off beliefs the creator is believed to hold. What if
Card felt this way, but just kept those feelings to himself? I understand that
people don't want to support or empower those like Card, so I'm personally
conflicted now as to whether I will see this film.

As an interesting personal side note, I went to high school in Massachusetts
in the early 2000s, when the state was at the forefront of progress for same-
sex marriage, and Ender's Game was required reader for every English class
during the summer before sophomore year. I suspect it still is, and it's
probably required at other schools. We spent weeks discussing the book, and it
still comes up in conversation every now and then, since we all had to read
it, and this is the first I've heard about Card's homophobic beliefs.

------
Stranger2013
What do you do when you don't like someone's use of freedom of speech? Try
recruiting a mob to bully them.

~~~
gaius
The Adria Richards strategy.

~~~
icebraining
Give it a rest already. So much ado about such a small event.

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theorique
I'm of two minds about this.

On the one hand, I don't like OSC's personal views about gays.

On the other hand, it's _Ender 's Game_. As a _movie_!

~~~
sneak
Pirate it. Best of both worlds!

~~~
sigzero
Yes, do something illegal with it. That puts you on the HIGH MORAL ground. /s

~~~
dllthomas
Illegality is not immorality. While in this case, I don't think piriting the
movie is an effective means of civil disobedience, there are certainly _many_
instances of people retaining (and possibly gaining) the high moral ground
during illegal activity.

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whiddershins
I have talked to pop stars who say their handlers "don't let them" say
anything political at all, for fear of exactly this sort of thing. It actually
lowers the level of political discourse to punish people for expressing their
views.

And anyway, come on.

Ender's game is one of the greatest science fiction books of all time. Lots of
creative people hold and express unpopular views. Often those views change,
over the course of their lives. What matters is whether their work moves you,
inspires you, makes you think of new things.

You should judge an author (painter, musician) on her work, not on what she
says outside of her work.

~~~
rtpg
>It actually lowers the level of political discourse to punish people for
expressing their views.

it's not punishing people for expressing their views, it's punishing people
for their views. Allowing evolution deniers the stage to talk lowers the level
of political discourse.

------
mhd
Sometimes I wish I could get over my inner 'realpolitik' and actually boycott
some stuff that would deserve it, although that would spare few artists or
even companies.

For artists, one could go with the 'Wagnerian razor', i.e. does the artist
make money by your individual contribution? Which would be the case if Card
gets a box office share. Although even that is morally questionable, as you're
part of the support and thus fund future projects, enriching the author that
way.

I sadly file all that under "things that would make me a better human", like
regular exercise or visiting the dentist twice a year. Although this one
wouldn't be hard, as never was a big fan of Ender's Game, being a bit too old
for the Mary Sue factor and not liking the morals of the _book_. I still play
Monkey Island every few years, though...

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AndrewDucker
There's a lot of discussion of this going on.

For instance, here's an ethical guide to consuming content created by awful
people: [http://thinkprogress.org/alyssa/2013/02/21/1619481/an-
ethica...](http://thinkprogress.org/alyssa/2013/02/21/1619481/an-ethical-
guide-to-consuming-content-created-by-awful-people-like-orson-scott-
card/?mobile=nc)

~~~
thret
I like the idea of moral offsetting; making a donation to an equal rights
organisation to counter the money you spend on the movie.

------
gradstudent
So conflicted. I love Ender's Game yet I hate its bigoted author.

:(

~~~
scotty79
You now know how gay hatitng Neil Patrick Harris fans must feel.

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seivan
I called for a boycott the last time a post about Enders Game was up, the guy
is a total ass without the decency to admit he's being an ass. Even I do that.

~~~
sigzero
To admit something, you have to believe in some way that it is true. He
probably does not and so he doesn't own up to it.

------
polskibus
> Tolerance doesn’t mean forking over 10 bucks to see his movie Is it really
> his movie though? Arent authors always screwed by hollywood in such
> enterprises ?

~~~
shrikant
Unknown-ish authors are -- like Winston Groom, when he agreed to have Forrest
Gump made into a movie, and got screwed by "Hollywood accounting" because he'd
accepted a percentage of the profits.

Well known ones have enough negotiating power to demand a cut of the gross
receipts and merchandising.

\--

 _Edit_ : A little more on the Winston Groom aside from Wikipedia:

 _Winston Groom 's price for the screenplay rights to his novel Forrest Gump
included a share of the profits; however, due to Hollywood accounting, the
film's commercial success was converted into a net loss, and Groom received
nothing. That being so, he has refused to sell the screenplay rights to the
novel's sequel, stating that he "cannot in good conscience allow money to be
wasted on a failure"._

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rorrr2
I haven't been to a movie theater in years. I think I will go this time just
to tell the religious assholes "go fuck yourself".

Sorry for the language.

~~~
mkr-hn
How will going to see the movie tell them that?

------
ukoto
Just like Chik-fil-A boycott? Oh wait they've seen record profits lately.
Perhaps it's because the silent majority of people are sick of gay culture?
Fortunately I live in Russia where we've recently and unanimously passed
several bills defending traditional marriage.[1] I would much rather my child
read an anti-gay author than a gay one, and Ender's Game is a classic that I
will surely pass on after I have a real marriage. A real marriage is
consummated, which is defined by intercourse, which is defined by penis in
vagina, which same-sex couples cannot do. The point of marriage is to have
kids and build a strong family. But homosexuals would rather change the
definition of a word to win the argument (moving the goal posts). In America,
marriage will die off since it will become a meaningless government contract.

[1] [http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russias-
duma-...](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russias-duma-waves-
through-antigay-law--by-436-votes-to-0-8654582.html)

~~~
JoeAltmaier
That rant is so tired, so inconsistent, so laced with hate-speech, its become
wearisome to respond to its ilk. Let me just say, lots of older couples,
infertile couples, 'normal' couples get married never intending to have
children, even in your own religion, that that fundamental argument is silly.

Why do you keep making it? You come off sounding desperate, defensive,
selfish. You make sex sound mechanical, impersonal. I cannot imagine what kind
of marriage you are describing, but it is not a marriage of joy and
commitment.

~~~
mercurial
No need to feed the troll.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Sorry.

