
Ask HN: How did you make it through the 2008 financial crisis or dotcom bust? - finaliteration
I know many of us are probably experiencing some anxiety about potentially or actually losing our jobs.<p>For those of you who made it through the 2008-2009 financial crisis or the dotcom bust before that, how did you do it? Do you have any particular advice for weathering this storm?
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Waterluvian
I've built up a life around me that appears as if I make half what I do. My
peers all have a second car and lots of nice luxuries that I don't. As a
result I could take a job that pays half what I get now and wouldn't have to
change a single thing about my life.

Stability for my children is the most important thing for me.

I also think that most of us are likely well into diminishing returns for what
happiness can be bought. Really second guess your need to buy those nice
things and that extra big house. You might not actually need them.

I appreciate this is longer term advice. Hard to act on any of it now.

~~~
himlion
Seconding this. If you live well within your means you can get through almost
any crisis.

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neilk
2001-2002 was brutal; I'd built a career around a dying language & I wasn't
living in a major tech hub. I lived off savings and contract work from a
company that was terrible, but had entrapped customers into their terrible
software, so they had a steady cash flow.

By 2008 I was in California and had been working for tech giants. When the
housing bubble popped I was laid off but quickly landed at a non-profit. Fun
fact: non-profits are exempted from H-1B caps; as long as you can get hired,
you can stay. I worked for what most San Francisco techies would have
considered laughable wages.

On the other hand, working for that non-profit was probably the portion of my
career that will have the highest impact on actual humans. Most tech industry
jobs are the poem Ozymandias, except everything turns to dust in 4 years
rather than 4,000. If you find yourself unemployed, it's probably better to be
underemployed at a nonprofit.

~~~
kls
Yeah dot com bust was much worse. I mean the market was over-inflated with
flash developers with 6 months experience making $100k and sysadmins fresh out
of their MCSE cert course making 80k. I joined a travel startup as the CTO
when the dotcom bust was looking like it was coming in 99. 9/11 knocked us
down for a little while but we built it back up and exited in a sale to
Hotels.con.

08 was much better for me, I had a steady job with Marriott and tech skills
where very much in demand.

Dot com bust was a bad time to be out on the market the 08 crash was not.

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zcw100
You will have a unique experience. One thing I learned through the dot-com
days was that there were wildly different experiences. I struggled to find
employment but after a lot of hustling finally found one as was surprised that
most of the people I worked with barely knew there was a problem. They
continued to have employment and all they knew is they got up in the morning,
went to work and got the same paycheck they always did. It was like musical
chairs. As long as you had a chair you were fine. If you didn't have one when
the music stopped you were devastated.

I was in NYC during the 2008-9 financial crisis and did my best to make sure I
always had a chair but here's the difficult part, people can give you tons of
advice on what to do but you don't usually have many options available to you.
You pick the best option you've got an go with that. It's all you can do.

We all know something big has happened but I don't think anyone can say what
that thing is. It's going to be complex and defy and single explanation. I
think the most you can say is that there is a great deal more uncertainty in
the world than there was before and a great deal more randomness.

Outstanding people will be destroyed and unworthy people will find great
opportunities and there wont be any more reason than just because. That will
probably make you feel very uncomfortable.

Do the best you can and persevere.

------
hindsightbias
Working for a traditional tech firm, I went to lunch or happy hour every week
with my more adventurous former peers who had moved to dotcomland. Since I
could never “get it” (whatever it was they were doing, or how it was ever
going to make money), I just took the salary increases old tech made to stay
competitive.

Post dotcom bust, moved to CA and got a rent controlled apt and stayed with
old tech. Researched how to short the housing market but never managed to find
Michael Burrey. 401k / investments were highly defensive by 2007, took a 10%
hit.

People need to look for something beyond changing the world through their
jerbs and start living well below what their lifestyle can afford. Perhaps
it’s having Depression-era relatives, or going to school with boom-and-bust
oil kids who got a corvette from daddy and then had to drop out of SMU when
daddy went bankrupt.

The cycles are like spring and fall. Whether you or Wall Street see it or not,
it will always come. Always. Squirrel away those acorns and good luck.

------
mmmm2
I'm old enough that I went through both, but I've been lucky in both
instances.

2000: Moved to San Jose that summer (my first job) to "make it big" at a
friend's email startup. The crash hit a few months later. I was lucky enough
that the company stuck around for a few years, and I moved to the midwest in
2003 where it was cheaper.

2009: Savings cut in half, I looked a long time for a new job, and ended up
moving back to San Jose to get one. I put most of my remaining savings into
the only house I could afford (which was barely livable), but it seemed like
the only chance I'd get to own real estate in California. I ended up not
liking my new job, but I couldn't afford to quit. After a long search, I was
able to switch into a much better job, and I lived pretty well for about 4
years in San Jose before once again moving back to the midwest.

Everyone else has covered the basics of handling these difficult
circumstances, but to reiterate:

1\. Try to have some savings. If things have looked good for a long time, get
conservative with your money. I neglected to do this before the 2008 crisis,
and lost much more of my savings than I should have. On the other hand, coming
out of a crash can be a great time to invest.

2\. Be frugal and flexible. Be willing to cut back your life style, and be
realistic about how stable your job is, and how long you can live without it.
Be willing to move to take opportunities, or take up a different line of work
if needed.

3\. Keep up with and help out the people you know. Band together with your
friends and family.

4\. This too shall pass. I'm worried this current crisis will be the worst
I've seen, but even if that's true we'll eventually get through it.

Best of luck to everyone out there.

------
FHermisch
I always changed my life shortly before one of these crisis took effect. Why?
I don't now... Dot-Com bust: After school in 2000, I worked for a small
startup which hired me full-time because I was able to code in Java. I had to
quit this because of mandatory military service (was still mandatory in
Germany in 2000) and later moved out of my home town to study computer
science. For me, I could only pay for this with a side job and in early 2001
there are still huge job opportunities if you had some coding skills. I don't
now, but I opted for the least modern industry and went to a company building
software for steel-rolling and warehouse logistics. When the towers collapsed
I was in the first month in the job and in my studying city (Aachen).
Everything else went down but the industry I worked for was quite immune. They
even kept me as a student worker while laying off other employees around me. I
learnt a lot in this times, because I worked with developers having a coding
experience of 40years AND they were open for new stuff. In 2007/2008: Ok, I
skipped a lot of studying in between and in 2007 my employee offered me a full
time job (skipping studying completely). I refused and quit the job from my
side. Lived on savings and started to complete studying full-time - then
everything went down. I actually owned some stocks and hedged them with put-
options 4 weeks before the stock market collapsed. Sold everything with no
losses. During studying I went for the more theoretical parts of computer
science - that turned out to be very helpful because with most modern tech, I
just needed to conclude which theory now was brought to live. Now: I quit my
well paid consulting job in December 2019 to build a startup. Selling digital
marketing products for brick&mortar business. Not the best thing for the
moment, but I got some cash in the backhand and lets see if this (unintended)
strategy pays off again.

------
Dowwie
In my experience, the last hired are the first laid off, regardless of
performance. This applied in a large corporate context, involving human
resources and myriad decision makers far removed from immediate work.

If your network primarily consists of coworkers, they probably won't be able
to help you find new work that you'll be interested in. Don't hold it against
people if you don't get referrals.

People are generally good, don't forget that. Situations compel action from
the top down (to say it nicely).

This debacle isn't like the Financial Crisis. I worked in finance for almost
ten years and was directly impacted by industry changes. Head count wasn't
restored to pre-crisis levels. There were permanent, structural changes. The
situation now is different. Government and shareholders aren't compelling
structural changes. This is cause for hope, but sometimes getting what we wish
for isn't what is best for us.

I turned hardship into opportunities for advancement. It came at great
personal cost. Yet, I believe that the best days are ahead of me because of
what I did in response to career instability. My story is far from finished.
So, I am hesitant to give advice. However, I am comfortable with advising
anyone considering business school for job change or advancement to
reconsider, assuming you are paying. Tuition is higher than ever. Student
loans and other debt will constrain your decisions and opportunities. Academic
accomplishments can be achieved without taking on $175,000 in loans. Business
school is rewarded by students more than students rewarded by business school.
An MBA is highly regarded by those who have them. The reality is that these
people were going to succeed regardless of the degree. While they are
complicit in perpetuating a myth, it is largely a consequence of bias.

If you are laid off and would like perspective from someone outside of your
network and can relate, you can contact me.

------
fullito
Nothing changed for me 2008-2009. My company was (still is but not with me) in
finance sector and apparently all those banks needed companies like us to
implement new regulations and stuff which came as a result of the finaancial
crisis.

We also did write financing software (which calculates your monthly rate) and
that became more popular too.

I'm not really sure how corona will play out but right now i'm again in a very
stable position: Company is very big and is in the software area which is
quite critical to companies. I was thinking about becoming a freelancer but
never liked the idea too much because of risks.

I also never bought a car, don't have any loan and no kids. If i would get
fired now, i would need to find a job in 10 month.

------
artur_makly
nothing stays the same. it will pass. you end up wiser, stronger, and if
lucky.. a more conscientious and humble human being.

~~~
_curious_
I like this.

------
lapnitnelav
I didn't really experience the 08 crisis directly but the aftermath for sure
as I got my degree in 10 and the market in my home country was really bad at
that time.

Had to go back to my less than stellar family for a year and a half, all of us
surviving on the struggling family business while slaving away pretty much all
the time.

Got a way out to move to Belfast and build a career slowly moving up from shit
job to less shit job.

While lots of it has sucked, in hindsight it was the best thing that happened
to me.

So you know, there might be a silver lining, maybe it's even platinum but you
can't even tell yet.

------
canterburry
I graduated college right in 2001 and needed Visa sponsorship. A complete no
go. I was unemployed for all practical purposes for 3 years until May 2004.

I remember job requirements turned absolutely bonkers with every acronym under
the sun and 20 years of experience required to boot.

I took the opportunity to go to grad school and spent hours every day building
projects with technologies I thought worth while. It paid off.

When the economy picked up again I had an awesome portfolio and a huge variety
of skills. I had even published a book on MySQL while unemployed for wrox
press.

Ironically I was making the biggest money in my life in tech 2008-2009

------
caseyf7
One of the biggest differences during the dotcom crash was how much of it
played out online. There was so much chatter in online forums and websites
like f*ckedcompany. This crisis seems silent in comparison.

~~~
canterburry
Omg, I loved f*uckedcompany.

------
_curious_
08 - Cut all losses and moved into the cheapest possible place to rent in less
than desirable neighborhood. Didn't buy a single thing that wasn't needed to
survive. Found myself humbled AF yet constantly starving for success (and
food!). Worked 60-70 hr weeks between 2 jobs (every single day of the week)
for FIVE years straight (no exaggerations) until the storm passed and I was in
a better place. Ended up selling the company I formed during that period just
last year :)

Learned a ton about myself and the world outside...never been so alive!

------
HeyLaughingBoy
In 2000 I was lucky (?) to be working for a stable company developing a
product with a bright future. During the dotcom boom, the main developers on
the project, including me, got retention bonuses so we wouldn't quit and run
off to the Valley.

In 2008, at the same job, the company had instituted a hiring freeze, but we
were still solidly profitable so we weren't really concerned.

In 2020, I've already taken a pay cut to help keep the business afloat
(different company). Oh, well :-(

This, too, shall pass. But it's gonna suck for a while.

~~~
cmurf
I cannot agree with this strategy at all. Pay cut requires a time cut. And
with that extra time, do whatever you want, but one of those things might be
finding alternatives. It is not your responsibility as an employee to prop up
the business.

SBA Payroll Protection Program. Your company could take out a loan and pay you
100%. 8 weeks is forgiven (strings are attached). The interest rate beyond 8
weeks loaned is 0.5%.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
You're right; it's not. But as an adult, I get to make that decision.

------
consz
I keep my expenses at 20% of my post-tax income, in part to avoid any impact
from deep or prolonged crises.

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gowld
Got a job at a company selling a legitimate project, lived within my means.

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quickthrower2
I was lucky. Kept my job. Was renting. 2008 made no difference to me.

~~~
2rsf
Same, except that I bought and didn't rent. Same for previous bubble bursts

------
Irishsteve
Went to college (msc) - it’s subsidized/ free in Europe

------
codezero
I went through both but they were both at weird transition times of my life
that they basically didn't have a real effect (or at least, it all seemed
normal enough for me)

dot bomb: I was 22, had worked for Red Hat since their IPO in 1999. I hadn't
gone to college, and was working in developer support, then QA, when I got
laid off, it was kind of like, eh, oh well, gonna move back in with my
parents. We get along so it was kind of not a big deal. I had saved a ton of
money from working and having no social life.

Ended up moving to California, playing a ton of EverQuest, learned to surf,
learned Kung Fu, and started to take classes at a community college.

My best advice for anyone early in their career/life with a lot of flexibility
and privilege is to spend that time acquiring a new skill that is unrelated to
the field that you are already in. It's a great time to develop an
alternative/fall back.

I decided after the dot bomb that I was going to be a luddite and not focus on
computer related work, so I started studying physics.

I got my degree and ended up building and maintaining a cluster for processing
satellite image data, so basically got right back into tech.

That brings me from 2003 to 2008!

I was going to get a PhD, then my advisor died, and the satellite I worked on
got shut down (government defunds science in recessions!) so I got bitten by
my own advice! I don't regret it, though.

At that time, I had just finished my undergrad, and had started working full
time in the research group I had worked in as an undergrad. When things
finally sunk in economically, I had to go back to part time temporarily, but
again, and this might be a theme, I had enough saved up and enough of a
personal cushion to ride it out for the six months it lasted until we got a
fresh grant.

I ended up leaving academia to get back into tech, and here I am again, and
I'm feeling pretty comfortable with the coming chaos, which is weird to say,
and I know it's going to be a lot harder for others.

My sisters both have work that puts them at a huge risk, and are struggling
with that, but tldr;

\- save money

\- don't panic sell if you have investments

\- if you can, buy now :)

\- seriously and intentionally develop a new skill, hobby, or interest

\- make new friends, reach out to folks, build a more robust social network

What you can't control, and what usually is behind "how I survived X" is
privilege though.

I have a colleague who is kind of a "prepper" but in the last downturn, he
used that as a way to feed himself and his wife for six months (boat rations,
rice & beans, etc...!) and volunteered at a mechanic shop so he could learn to
fix/build cars (he offered them SEO in trade). Now as a hobby he sometimes
buys cars, soups them up, and sells them.

