
Apple Speeds Up Electric-Car Work - psawaya
http://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-speeds-up-electric-car-work-1442857105
======
jakobegger
The more I hear about Apple making a car, the more it seems inevitable.

Apple's revenue is 180 billion dollars. If they enter a new market, it has to
be big. How many high margin billion dollar industries are there? The entire
watch market is just around $50 billion dollars a year. If Apple wants to
continue growing like it did in the past, the watch is a distraction. They
need to aim for something much bigger.

Besides the financial reasons, I think it's the perfect time to break into the
market. The switch to electric motors levels the playing field, giving
newcomers an edge if they can move fast. But the most important part is the
integration of all the systems in the car, most importantly the digital user
interface. Todays cars have horrible interfaces. Manufacturers are too busy
covering every possible niche with dozens of models, which makes it impossible
for them to make a single great car. And even if they tried, they are too
dependent on component suppliers to create a single, integrated experience of
the kind Apple does.

There are two questions I wonder about:

1\. How will Apple be able to make use of their experience in electronics when
they move to a completely new industry?

2\. What are the technical tricks Apple has up their sleeve? The iPod had hard
drives and the click wheel, the iPhone had multitouch and a SoC that enabled a
real browser, the watch had force sensitivity, haptic feedback, and a pulse
meter. What will the car have?

~~~
pazimzadeh
Car interiors are full of plasticky knobs that remind me of cell phone keys
from 1995-2006. I think that Apple will have a lot of fun creating a new
interfaces for everything inside the car, and I think they're wise enough not
to try to replace all physical controls with a gigantic touch screen, unlike
Tesla.

I'm hoping that many functions won't need a UI any more, such as adjusting the
mirrors:
[http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login.jsp?tp=&arnumber=118796...](http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login.jsp?tp=&arnumber=1187960)

~~~
greglindahl
Tesla has physical controls on the steering wheel that access a lot of
functions also available in the touch screen. HN posters who don't own Teslas
often complain about the touch screen controls, while owners use the steering
wheel controls.

BTW, mirror adjustment on a Tesla doesn't use the touchscreen.

~~~
pazimzadeh
You got me, I've never been in a Tesla. A quick search shows that while the
Tesla S has physical controls on the steering wheel, the Tesla Model X uses
touchscreen
([http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6...](http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=65638&d=1418214878)).

~~~
greglindahl
I assumed that the "gigantic touchscreen" referred to in your comment is the
17" monster on the right. The Model X hasn't shipped yet, so I don't know if
that photo is the final configuration.

If it is, and by "gigantic" you meant "The small, 2 inch touchscreens on the
steering wheel which might be as easy to use as physical controls", then sure,
we could talk about that. Seems premature right now, when the public can't try
it out.

~~~
pazimzadeh
Sorry didn't mean to start an argument. You brought up the steering wheel,
that's why I looked up the controls. Seems like you're right about the Model
S.

------
Tiktaalik
This seems like a weird market for Apple to be pursuing because they’re such a
consumer oriented company, but it seems likely that the future of
transportation will be less oriented around individual car ownership.

Additionally there’s a good argument to be made that we hit “peak car” several
years ago, so consumer oriented automobiles may not be a real growth industry.

I’d seriously question any business plan that assumes that the transportation
mode share of cars, especially individually owned cars, will be greater than
it is now.

Maybe I’m thinking too long term here.

~~~
blazespin
Not at all. By the time Apple gets any traction, this indeed may be the
reality.

That being said, people will always want to travel in style, whether they own
the car or not. Think black car versus beaten up taxi. Apple wants to be the
luxury brand intersected with technology. Who else does that as well as they
do?

Also, as per below, Apple's model of making things which can't be serviced by
the owner fits the idea of no ownership.

Finally, this new business model is going to obliterate all the old car makers
that can't evolve fast enough. When significant disruption vectors clearly
exist that can only be leveraged by the extremely well capitalized... well,
this is really a no brainer for Apple.

The only really question is, can Tim Cook create the tech? Google is
struggling with it and they are by far the most skillful at AI.

In the end though, we'll all be better off with Apple in the race than out of
it.

~~~
untog
_Apple wants to be the luxury brand intersected with technology. Who else does
that as well as they do?_

Honestly, in terms of car manufacturers, I think there are a lot who do luxury
better than Apple. Agreed their technology intersection isn't so great, but
I'd rather own a BMW outfitted with Apple software than an Apple car.

~~~
weinzierl
Maybe the Apple car _will be_ a BMW outfitted with Apple software. Tim Cook
visited BMW premises last year, allegedly there has been at least another
visit from an Apple delegation since then.

~~~
blazespin
That makes a lot of sense. It also makes sense that Apple would start out
there.

~~~
sangnoir
...just like the Motorola ROKR

------
ssharp
It's interesting to see new entries into such an established and
manufacturing-heavy industry. Tesla had a fairly slow and methodical strategy,
that they're still executing on before they can really hit a mass audience
(I'd say the Model 3 is the next evolution in that). Apple has not, at least
since Jobs took over again, really been slow and methodical in entering big
markets. However, with the iPod, iPhone, and iPad, they were the first to try
and align those device types with a mass audience that hadn't really been
addressed yet. With cars, that audience has been well addressed for over a
century!

I'm curious to find out what price range Apple is coming in at, what makes the
Apple car better than alternatives, and how/where they're going to manufacture
it at a cost similar to competitors.

~~~
wiremine
> Apple has not, at least since Jobs took over again, really been slow and
> methodical in entering big markets.

Depends on how you look at it:

\- They've been fairly slow to enter the TV market.

\- Homekit is out there but hasn't received a lot of attention in recent
keynotes.

\- Healthkit and related medical technology isn't something they have been
extremely quick on.

~~~
ssharp
You're right about these. I think the distinction I should have made was about
how much effort they put into the different products. I think the three you
mention have not have a ton of Apple's resources put into them like their
other products. If they're going to actually produce a car from soup to nuts,
there is no real way to half-ass that like they have the TV.

------
davidw
There's an old thing, from Bob Young, founder of Redhat, about proprietary
software being like a car with the hood welded shut. Perhaps the latter will
actually become reality.

~~~
diogenescynic
John Deere is already moving in that direction:

>John Deere—the world’s largest agricultural machinery maker —told the
Copyright Office that farmers don’t own their tractors. Because computer code
snakes through the DNA of modern tractors, farmers receive “an implied license
for the life of the vehicle to operate the vehicle.”

>Several manufacturers recently submitted similar comments to the Copyright
Office under an inquiry into the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. DMCA is a
vast 1998 copyright law that (among other things) governs the blurry line
between software and hardware. The Copyright Office, after reading the
comments and holding a hearing, will decide in July which high-tech devices we
can modify, hack, and repair—and decide whether John Deere’s twisted vision of
ownership will become a reality.

[http://www.wired.com/2015/04/dmca-ownership-john-
deere/](http://www.wired.com/2015/04/dmca-ownership-john-deere/)

~~~
tomtang0514
Automated tractor is not as complex as automated car since the environment is
much simpler. I think it's closer to iRobot Roomba rather than self driving
car.

------
kaolinite
Even though it's hard to imagine Apple making a car, there is an awful lot of
smoke around this. There has to be a fire somewhere. Lots of people are
wondering how Apple can differentiate in the car market - I think
(surprisingly) it comes down to price. Few people may remember this, but when
Apple announced the iPad, people were shocked at how cheap it was. People knew
the iPad was coming and were predicting it would start at $1000, easily. It
cost $500.

Leaving out driverless car tech, which I'm not sure whether Apple will have
ready for launch, I think the Apple Car will look and function like a $100,000
car - but will cost _significantly_ less. Say, half the price. Ive, in a
recent interview, spoke about how he hated so many cars on the road. Not
because they were cheap, but because they were poorly designed and put
together with such little care. I think, unless he's gone off the deep end
into the luxury market (which he very well may have!) he would want to produce
a car that is really great - but still affordable enough that lots of people
will be able to afford it[1].

All of that being said, and no matter how much Apple cares about the mass
market, Apple will want to keep their high margins. They'll need to bring down
manufacturing costs considerably. However, if anyone can do it, it's Tim Cook.
He's well known for being a wizard at managing supply chains. Perhaps it'll be
their first product assembled entirely by robots, who knows.

We'll see what happens but if Apple are able to produce a very high quality
car at a reasonable price, I suspect that it will be extremely disruptive. In
the UK at least, pretty much every car under £30,000 is utter garbage. I'd
love it if Apple could change that.

[1] I suspect, as with Apple Watch, there will also be a high-end version of
an Apple Car. It will probably have the same functionality (i.e. it won't just
be a super-car) but will have extras, like a Hermès leather interior. I, for
one, look forward to customising a car like a new Macbook - current car
customisation screens are a pain (besides Tesla, actually, theirs isn't too
bad).

~~~
dingaling
> In the UK at least, pretty much every car under £30,000 is utter garbage.

What?

Modern cars are of incredibly high-quality, even at the lower end of the
market.

Take a look at what taxi drivers in the UK use. Today, the taxi fleets are
dominated by Skoda[0], Kia and ( in London ) Toyota. Those all cost under
£30,000. Well under. Yet they hold up well in the daily urban taxi grind.

Mercedes, BMW and other 'premium' brands are notable by their absence from
such fleets. That's because they don't offer any quality differential
correlating to their price. They mainly occur in the higher-tier occasional-
hire market, aimed at people who want image.

 _[0] That fact that Skoda is preferred over the same parts wrapped in an Audi
or VW body is interesting._

~~~
kaolinite
Sorry, perhaps I should have been more clear - I'm not saying these cars are
unreliable or will fall apart, I'm saying they're ugly and made of horrible
materials. Unpleasant fabric, plastic that is textured to "look" like leather,
fake leather and just awful, awful designs (e.g. The Toyota Yaris or the
Nissan Juke - just dreadful). I'm sure these cars are very reliable, but from
a design perspective they're ghastly.

------
jbob2000
I am very interested in what this car will look and behave like. Until Tesla,
automobile interface design was pretty stagnant; Knobs and switches for
everything!

Apple has been very focused on virtual interfaces lately, I wonder what their
return to physical will look like.

~~~
Splines
Knobs and switches are not a bad thing when you need to keep your eyes on the
road.

~~~
jbob2000
I didn't mean to infer that they were bad, only that they are used
indiscriminately. Take a look at the fan control, for example. Toyota, it's a
dial, Nissan is a slider, BMW is two buttons for increase and decrease speed.
To open the trunk on a Toyota, you press a button, but other models, you pull
a latch. On some BMWs, you unlock the doors with a button on the dash. Most
cars have a button on the driver side door, but some will even have this as an
on/off switch.

I'll stop there, but my point is that car manufacturers haven't been able to
figure out a "universal interface". Apple was able to do this with the iPhone
(touch screen), so I wonder now if they can do it with cars.

~~~
Too
Car manufactures have figured out a "universal interface" (buttons) as much as
iPhone figured out touch screen.

There is nothing universal about the iphone interaction except that you touch
it, for example it doesn't have a back button which most other manufactures
do. Behind that touch screen you have the same mess of
buttons/sliders/dropdowns/checkboxes/toggles between different models, as in
cars.

------
gniv
This is fantastic news. I wish more companies would get into this. Google,
Facebook, Microsoft. Every company that has a ton of cash should consider
doing it. Tesla proved that it's viable, so the hard work has been done. And
building an electric car from scratch is not nearly as daunting as an ICE car.
The car companies are heavily incentivized to not do it, so to me it's a great
opportunity to get in early in a high-growth industry.

~~~
msie
I wish that some companies would get into making cheaper, smaller, better
medical diagnostic devices. That would be revolutionary in treating people
because the body is still a black box right now. Or treating age-related
diseases because it affects so many people, not just the patient.

------
melling
Some sites are reporting that 600 people are working on the project and they
will be tripling that number to 1800 people:

[http://appleinsider.com/articles/15/09/21/apple-has-
target-s...](http://appleinsider.com/articles/15/09/21/apple-has-target-ship-
date-of-2019-for-electric-car-project-but-it-wont-be-self-driving---report)

[Update]

Actually, the WSJ also reported. Guess other sites are reprinting.

~~~
weinzierl
Even 1800 people working on the project wouldn't indicate that Apple takes the
project seriously.

The number of BMW employees in R&D at the headquarter in Munich is about
20000. There are another 10000 contractors working onsite. This are the
numbers for R&D only, not including production. The numbers also don't include
the employees of the numerous suppliers.

In addition to that:

BMW is an established car manufacturer. They don't need to develop a car from
scratch.

BMW is one of the smaller car manufacturers, I don't have numbers for VW or
Toyota.

~~~
reklawnos
At the same time, apparently less than 3000 people developed the Tesla Model S
[1], and less than a thousand developed the Tesla Roadster [2]. That might not
be an entirely fair comparison.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Motors#Overview](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Motors#Overview)

[2] [http://www.statista.com/statistics/314768/number-of-tesla-
em...](http://www.statista.com/statistics/314768/number-of-tesla-employees/)

~~~
weinzierl
Tesla would have been a better benchmark than BMW. I believe comparison is not
entirely fair for the following reasons:

The Tesla roadster was developed together with Lotus and there were only 1000
units produced. Producing a one-off small batch series is in another ballpark
than real mass production.

For the later models Tesla partnered with Daimler and Toyota. Toyota produces
more cars on a single day than Tesla in a whole year.

I'm enthusiastic about what Tesla does but if they want to play with the big
guys they'll have to grow up.

------
127001brewer
I have a hard time believing that Apple would manufacture an electric car,
especially one, according to the article, that had an initial design
resembling a minivan.

It's well known that Jonathan Ive and Marc Newson are "car guys"[1], so
perhaps it will be a vehicle similar to the Cube[2] - meaning it will have a
very low production run - while the underlying technologies, such the
batteries, are sold to other manufacturers.

1: [http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/02/23/shape-things-
co...](http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/02/23/shape-things-come) 2:
[http://www.macworld.com/article/1153341/cube_10thanniversary...](http://www.macworld.com/article/1153341/cube_10thanniversary.html)

~~~
seiji
Not just some casual "car guys" — Eddy Cue is on the board of directors for
Ferrari.

------
mortenjorck
The more real this becomes, the more it starts to feel like the R&D sprawl of
the Michael Spindler years. Yet it's not: This categorically isn't sprawl
because it's focused on one hugely ambitious thing, and unlike the Apple of
the early 90s, even if Apple literally puts ten billion dollars into this
project and it fails, they come out with 190 billion left to continue running
a successful consumer electronics business. And if it succeeds, of course,
Apple becomes a major player in a socio-technological revolution for the third
time.

------
jreed91
I'd recommend listening to this podcast from Horace Dediu about how apple can
differentiate themselves.

[http://www.asymco.com/2015/03/11/the-critical-
path-143-movin...](http://www.asymco.com/2015/03/11/the-critical-
path-143-moving-parts/#disqus_thread)

------
sixQuarks
I think Apple has jumped the shark. They're venturing into areas where they
are going to get swamped down, lose tons of money, lose focus.

Without the vision of Steve Jobs, I'm afraid they don't have what it takes to
pull this off.

------
leeleelee
The old Apple would set out to create a paradigm shift in how humans travel
and view transportation (instead of just jumping on the EV bandwagon).

~~~
gress
Do you have any information at all about what they are doing?

~~~
leeleelee
I have the information that is public, and nothing suggests they are doing
anything different than what is already being worked on by others.

------
inmyunix
surely there are people here who personally know someone on the project...

~~~
hkmurakami
Apple employees are contract bound to not discuss work on even the most
mundane of product updates. As friends, we respect their obligations (though
we do give them a hard time by sarcastically badgering them about upcoming
updates)

~~~
nemo44x
Even within the company they are. I was speaking with 2 different groups at
the same time from Apple and they had to ask me certain questions about their
particular projects secretly while the other group was in the room. I had an
NDA so I could know both sides but I could not discuss one groups project with
the other.

~~~
burger_moon
It's surprising how well Apple does considering the lack of transparency
within their company (or perceived transparency from my pov as an outsider).

I wonder if this can cause an issue when they begin to get into building
products (like cars) that need a high safety factor?

------
6d6b73
Will it have Retina Windshield?

~~~
aqwwe
I don't know, but you probably won't be able to put groceries from some stores
in that car... unless said stores shell out 30% or something crazy.

------
worik
Paywalled

------
pragone
Wanna give a non-paywalled synopsis for those of us without a WSJ
subscription?

Edit: Mass-reply: Thanks all! Learn something new every day.

For those looking for the same thing, go here, click first link. Should bypass
the paywall:
[https://www.google.com/search?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsj.com%2Fa...](https://www.google.com/search?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsj.com%2Farticles%2Fapple-
speeds-up-electric-car-work-1442857105)

~~~
trca
Pro-tip: You can generally take any paywall blocked article, copy the URL into
the Google search bar and click the first-result to get a non-paywall blocked
version. Works for NYTimes, WSJ and a few others I can't remember.

~~~
marcosscriven
Bookmarklet?

javascript:window.location="[https://www.google.com/search?q="+window.location](https://www.google.com/search?q="+window.location)

~~~
zodiakzz
Or better yet:-

javascript:window.location="[https://www.google.com/url?q="+window.location](https://www.google.com/url?q="+window.location)

------
ShakataGaNai
Colbert just had Tim Cook on his show (this past Tuesday) and put him on the
spot about this very topic. Maybe related?

~~~
jonknee
That was mentioned in the article:

> Asked last week by late-night talk-show host Stephen Colbert about Apple’s
> interest in a driverless car, Apple Chief Executive Tim Cook said: “We look
> at a number of things along the way, and we decide to really put our
> energies in a few of them.”

