
Paul Graham's Participatory Narcissism (2008) - mmx200
https://blog.codinghorror.com/paul-grahams-participatory-narcissism/
======
SirensOfTitan
A [2008] tag may be appropriate here.

To me, this post didn’t age well. From what I recall, entrepreneurship is at
something like a 50 year low in the US. Even in tech, where startups are
seemingly plentiful, large companies are buying up promising young startups
just to eliminate competition. If one believes competition breads resiliency
and creativity, more people need to be starting companies and seeing those
companies through.

From a different angle, Paul Graham to me always has evangelized over much
else the virtue of freedom over schedule. Zoo metaphors, terms like “wage
slavery” are poignant terms used well before Paul Graham to refer to the
troublesome aspects of working for another person. In many ways most careers
working for others have very little freedom over schedule—one works when one’s
manager expects them to work. Freedom over schedule doesn’t mean freedom from
consequences either—when one has control over their own schedule, the real
consequences of one’s actions are much more visible.

~~~
pdonis
_> To me, this post didn’t age well._

I think it wasn't a very good criticism even at the time. I remember reading
PG's post when it was posted and thinking that it did a good job of capturing
what it was like to work in a large organization. Atwood didn't seem to grasp
that. (He also didn't seem to grasp the point of PG's "How to Disagree"
follow-up post.)

~~~
SirensOfTitan
Oh, I meant Atwood’s post didn’t age well, sorry for the lack of specificity!

~~~
pdonis
_> I meant Atwood’s post didn’t age well_

Yes, I understood that. I was saying that Atwood's post didn't seem to me to
be a good criticism of PG's post even at the time.

------
gkoberger
"But lately I've begun to wonder whether Mr. Graham, like Joel Spolsky before
him, has devolved into self-absorption and irrelevance."

...six months later, Joel Spolsky and the author Jeff Atwood launched Stack
Overflow together.

~~~
coldtea
Which is neither here nor there as to the worth of their blogging at the
period (or that which followed).

~~~
gkoberger
My point is that 2008 was a long time ago, and it's very likely he no longer
feels this way about pg (as partially evidence by the footnote in this
article).

------
gist
> Small businesses are the backbone of the American economy. And Mr. Graham is
> absolutely right to encourage young people to take risks early in life, to
> join small business startups with potentially limitless upside while they
> have nothing to lose – no children, no mortgage, no significant other

Important to recognize that while 'startups' are typically 'small business'
not all 'small business' are the types of startups that Paul (and the OP) are
referring to. Most 'small business' are not angel, vc or even friends and
family funded (at least with f&f not to any large 'lose money for years with
runway' extent). They are businesses that people start and operate on a
shoestring that they have to get right or they go out of business. And when
they go out of business they don't land at some other 'startup' and aren't
heralded as having their ticket punched and presented with great opportunities
(like happens with people who fail in a way with a YC 'startup').

> Naturally, every young software programmer worth a damn forms a startup.
> Because that's what Mr. Graham's company, Y Combinator, does. They fund
> startups with young software programmers

This is another annoying thing about YC and HN. This idea that anyone that is
good is working at a startup and not at a 'traditional' company I mean who
would work (if they were good) at (insert legacy company that has been around
for 100 or even 25 years filled with old timers)?

What's ironic is that Paul has actually burned out (from what I can tell and
sure I could be wrong) from the startup ecosystem. He is doing writing and
programming he is not running a company or trying to start a company and so on
(he would say this is why you have to do your best work when you are young).
But the truth is in traditional business there are plenty of 'older dudes'
(older than Paul) that getup and enjoy running a business and they don't need
the money and they don't need the aggravation but they enjoy business.

------
bovermyer
While I understand that this crowd in particular might care more than the
average audience about what Paul Graham says, the important thing is not to
tie your self-worth to what others think or say.

~~~
WilliamEdward
Especially when they're just average people who happened to get lucky with
money.

~~~
thatsenough
You need to meet some more "average people."

------
modwest
Last time I saw a pg blog post on here there was a lengthy discussion about
whether it belonged on HN. One of the comments was
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21894583](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21894583)

On one hand, you gotta hand it to pg (insert dril tweet about not having to
“hand it” to anyone). According to his own writing, he knew he was in danger
of sliding into something he didn’t want to be.

On the other hand, he expressed in his own writing he knew he was in danger of
sliding into something he didn’t want to be, but he doesn’t seem to have
adapted.

For the record I don’t have any feelings on pg as a person. Like everyone else
his history is a mixed bag. Just saying: to me, his writing often seems to
emanate from a place where his empathy for others & technocapitalist value
system are having an argument he doesn’t hear. Again, not a knock on pg’s
skill as a writer or worth as a person. We all have blind spots. I just think
that’s his, and we’ve entered an age where patience for people who dwell in
that blind spot is running very thin.

------
alharith
Ironically, I have always sensed a bit of nihilism in Jeff's writing (which
shares many traits with narcissism), typically exemplified in the vein of most
everything being repeated, common, or meaningless, which is present in the
first paragraph of this essay.

------
Ozzie_osman
I didn't get his diss of Joel Spolsky... I thought Jeff Atwood and Joel worked
together?

~~~
endorphone
In the era it was kind of a thing to publicly and loudly disagree with other
very public people. That beef fed attention to all parties.

In the end of that post Jeff got special treatment from PG, and we know he
ended up starting StackOverflow with Spolsky. Love all around.

~~~
yesenadam
In 1884 Robert Louis Stevenson wrote _A Humble Remonstrance_ in Longman's
Magazine, which explained to Henry James that James totally misunderstood the
nature of fiction and art. James couldn't help admiring it, and they became
very good friends.

[http://www.gutenberg.org/files/30598/30598-h/30598-h.htm#pag...](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/30598/30598-h/30598-h.htm#page148)

"The whole secret is that no art does “compete with life.” Man’s one method,
whether he reasons or creates, is to half-shut his eyes against the dazzle and
confusion of reality. The arts, like arithmetic and geometry, turn away their
eyes from the gross, coloured and mobile nature at our feet, and regard
instead a certain figmentary abstraction."

------
pdonis
Did PG's post that is linked to here get edited? I don't see the anecdote that
Atwood quotes anywhere in PG's post.

------
imgabe
I can only hope to one day write something so provocative that 12 years later
people are still getting rankled by it.

I know Atwood's post is from 2008, but the fact that it's on the front page
today in 2020 must mean people are still feeling sore about it.

~~~
coldtea
> _I can only hope to one day write something so provocative that 12 years
> later people are still getting rankled by it._

That's not something to admire and doesn't take much of an effort either.

A bigoted racist remark, for example, will do just as well...

~~~
imgabe
Not really. Can you think of any bigoted racist remark from 12 years ago that
people still talk about? Stuff like that gets a brief spurt of outrage and
then gets forgotten when the next outrage comes along.

~~~
coldtea
> _Can you think of any bigoted racist remark from 12 years ago that people
> still talk about?_

Why "still"? It's not like PG's 2008 article is the talk of the town today
itself and people write new "hating" responses to it. This is just a repost on
HN of an existing 12 year old response to the article.

That said, yes, you can find write-ups and responses to remarks that actually
were (or were/are considered as) bigoted/racist/etc being written many years
after the fact as well, e.g. to various writers/politicians/pundits/etc anti-
semitic remarks...

------
creamynebula
He wrote many very interesting and insightful things, but his ego has always
been quite big.

------
ineedasername
Paul Graham's professional stake with ycombinator requires that young
programmers believe there is something special and superior about
joining/founding startups. I'm not saying there aren't personality differences
at work, but nearly _everyone_ , especially when young, wants to believe they
are part of a select group, anointed as the select and superior to others. So
it's no surprise that a person with a company that benefits from that mindset
may actually believe it as well.

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genjipress
Should be labeled "[2008]"

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kyriee
As this was written 12 years ago and it would also be instructing to see if
his perspective has evolved as he went on to found the StackExchange network.

------
jstewartmobile
Shut up Paul, you're scaring off the W2s!

