

America can't be the world's tech leader without immigration reform. - jseliger
http://www.slate.com/id/2228258

======
netsp
My issue with ideas like the "startup visa" is that they require restrictions
and bureaucracies. You end up with more draconian restrictions on immigrants
causing resentment. You end up with more distortion of market signals.

What happens when a startup goes under? Visa cancelled? Well that's reason to
pour more resources in or just pretend it's still alive. What happens if they
do some consulting on the side to stay alive? What happens if it ends up all
consulting? What happens if people come out with the intention of doing this.
How are you going to stop it? Force them to develop products?

What is a startup? Does a lawn mowing startup count? How about if they invent
their own lawn mower? in 'The Founder Visa,' Graham proposes that the
Governemnt could _"use investment by recognized startup investors as the test
of whether a company was a real startup."_ Recognised by who? Do you really
want to erect an official barrier to entry for investors?

What about an existing startup in country X that wouldn't mind moving to the
US. Now they need an officially recognised investor. They don't need an
investor. They need a visa. They can pay for it. The investor is in a position
to sell a visa, even if it looks like he is just getting a good deal on some
stock. It might even look like that to the investor. I offered a deal. They
took it. The power to grant a visa is worth money and even if you can control
the granter's morals or incentives (you can't), you cannot control the
grantee's reasons for accepting a deal.

4 consultants doing remote work for mostly US clients decide they could double
their (say $150k p/a) revenue by moving to the US and doing the same.
Theoretically, they can afford up to $150k p/a for the visa. Say they take
$100k "investment" form a recognised investor in return for a promise to pay
$50k p/a. How would the visa process weed these candidates out. Review the
business plan? Make sure that they are planning to build a business that
scales? Consulting doesn't scale. Are you sure? Will we have a list of
business plans that scale?

The article mentions setting up " _a board of investors, entrepreneurs, and
tech lawyers who are used to vetting tech ideas; they'd review applications
and choose which ones are worthy of a Founder Visa._ " This, it reckons, would
be open to corruption.

I don't think it is possible to have "controlled immigration" that is this
controlled to this extent without these ugly issues.

~~~
joe_the_user
Quite a few people have mentioned Canada's skills-based system. This sounds
far and away better and _clearer_ than the unmanageable "Founder's Visa".

BUT REGARDLESS, America will not be "The World's Tech Leader" with American
elementary and secondary schools in the shape that they presently are in (and
more multiple choice testing isn't it either..). Funny how this never gets
mentioned in these "Tech Leader" debates (cultural math phobia might even
deserve being addressed here).

~~~
giardini
joe_the_user says: "America will not be 'The World's Tech Leader' with
American elementary and secondary schools in the shape that they presently are
in"

Unconvincing.

Despite the current state of affairs in elementary/secondary schooling the US
graduates more Ph.D.'s in most fields than can find suitable jobs Excluding
occasional shortages there are more than enough excellent students in the US
education pipeline to more than fill all advanced degree job openings in the
US.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
How many of those PhDs went to elementary & secondary education in the US?

~~~
joe_the_user
Uh, did you even notice that PhDs still go to elementary school?

------
nick-dap
Two words. DREAM Act. <http://dreamact.info>

I was brought to the United States by my parents at a very young age. In the
process I have inherited the title of an "illegal immigrant" from my parents.
The DREAM Act is a legislation 10 years in the making. We have thousands of
enterpreneurs, scientists, engineers, nurses, doctors, talent in every field
imaginable going to waste in the United States; living in the shadows. Myself
included.

Last year I graduated from NYU with a dual degree in electrical and computer
engineering. My graduate school plans were shattered because I could not prove
my identify for the purpose of taking the GREs. I cannot work, open a bank
account, drive, get health insurance, go to a bar, take an interstate bus or
train, fly, live or breathe. Yet, I am lucky, because I live in New York City.
Those living almost anywhere else in the country cannot go to college or call
the police at fear of deportation.

There are hundreds of thousands of us in the United States. I personally know
hundreds of children, teens, and now young adults that have had their lives
put on hold for Congress to "feel right" for immigration reform. I also know
quite a few individuals who could not live like this anymore and have taken
their skills elsewhere by going for voluntary departure (a path not open to
all).

Next time your legislator tells you that this is not the right time for
immigration reform, remind them of the experience of our butchered youth,
remind them of the DREAM Act. I am a 23 year old American with no relief,
rights, or equality in sight. Tragically, I am not alone.

~~~
nearestneighbor
I'm curious, how did you get in and through college (tuition, enrollment,
etc.) without an ID or a bank account?

I lived in NYC myself. Besides not having to drive, is it really a better
place to be for undocumented immigrants?

~~~
4chan4ever
Well I'll be the lone dissenting voice here. Downmod away...

First, I think illegal immigration is still ILLEGAL immigration and yes, the
laws need to be reformed but until they are, let's not be too devious in how
we aid and abet criminal behaviors.

Second and more to the point, anybody who's considering immigrating to the US
of A (or Canada) for "technology" will face a rude awakening in another 5-10
years. You're immigrating to the wrong hemisphere. Now if you think you might
be a good producer of trash reality TV then hey! Come on over. That's where
America truly excels.

~~~
jacquesm
I don't like to downmod to express my disagreement, so let me try to put it
into words instead of the 'down arrow'.

I think that your stance is absolutely indefensible since the poster
explicitly states that he came to America as a young child and 'inherited' his
status as an illegal from his parents.

So, even if he/she has done everything possible to stay clear of the law (if
there is one thing you do not do as an illegal it is breaking _ANY_ laws,
since that can lead to instant deportation) simply by walking around on the
street there is a risk.

If you have been in a country for as long as you remember and you have been a
productive element in that society then by any definition you are part of that
society, and not a criminal.

To pretend it is otherwise because of a bunch of stupid pieces of paper is
putting the horse behind the cart.

~~~
stonemetal

      So, even if he/she has done everything possible to stay clear of the law ... been a productive element in that society
    

If he has been a productive member of society then he has broken several laws
around the employment of illegals, including tax evasion. It as if he broke in
to your house and has been living in your attic. He contributed to the upkeep
of the house by fixing a holes in the roof so that his bed would stay dry. Now
that he has lived in your attic for so long he demands ownership since he
doesn't remember living anywhere else and doesn't have anywhere else to go.

    
    
      ...in that society then by any definition you are part of that society
    

No, you are member of society when you live by the rules of that society, and
take your punishment when you violate their rules. Doing what you want and
breaking whichever rules you want because they don't apply to you doesn't make
you member of society. That is not to say the law is correct, but violating
them because you don't like them makes you a criminal not a citizen. If he
were practicing Civil Disobedience then there would be a political component
to his action instead of entitlement whining.

~~~
jacquesm
If your parents take you along on their illegal trip as a child that does not
make _YOU_ a criminal, it makes you a victim, but the system will treat you as
though you are a criminal.

~~~
stonemetal
Age has no bearing on the legality of the action in question. So yes you are a
criminal weather you are 6 months or 60 years old. I am pretty sure they treat
you differently based on age though. I can't see them deporting a 6 month old
without a care taker like they would an adult. I wouldn't be surprised if it
were possible to set up a mail relay to "leave" the country while you work on
your citizenship papers. Nor would I be surprised to find out that it were
quicker to get a Canadian citizenship and use that to apply for a US
citizenship.

~~~
jacquesm
> So yes you are a criminal weather you are 6 months or 60 years old.

We seem to have a different opinion on that.

Personally I think that any system - and any person - that can treat 6 months
olds as criminals is seriously broken, and to be held in contempt.

~~~
stonemetal
It isn't like the punishment is something horrible. We don't put illegal
emigrants in Leavenworth. We give them a free plane ride home. Where they are
fully able to try to come into the country again legally or illegally.

Believe what you like. Personally I am happy with the fact that murder is
illegal for everyone not just people over the age of 35. Personally I am happy
that theft is illegal to everyone not just people over the age of 40.
Personally I like the fact that courts are allowed to deal with assaults
committed by minors and even have special rules regarding their care. I
believe you have to have rules that apply to everybody, you can't decide that
this isn't a crime today but wake up tomorrow and you get death row for it.

~~~
jacquesm
> We give them a free plane ride home.

For someone that was brought in to the US and is now at an age to have
completed their secondary education home _is_ the United States. No amount of
paper waving and applying of the rules is going to change that.

Anyway, I'm wasting my time with this, I only wish that in your life you will
never ever come up against a situation where you will be forced to realize
just how cruel your stance is.

We're not debating murder here, that's just a straw man. We are not dealing
with assault, committed by minors or otherwise.

The subject was immigration, specifically by minors too young to even realize
what that means.

~~~
stonemetal

      you will be forced to realize just how cruel your stance is.

What is cruel about expecting people to live by the rules they have agreed to
live by? Yes and he is a grown up now and has known for years that he is in
the wrong. Instead of doing the right thing he complains about how we should
all just love him for it. It would be a big relief for him if he went home no
more fear of being discovered, no more I can't do that because I might be
found out, the ability to get an id, bank account, health insurance, take the
GRE. If he wanted to go to grad school he could be back in a semester on a
student visa.(according to travel.state.gov a student visa takes at most 120
days and $300)

    
    
      The subject was immigration, specifically by 
      minors too young to even realize what that means.
    

No I was talking about the fact that the rules apply to everyone, and the fact
that is not a bad thing like you seem to think it is.

~~~
Gormo
Stonemetal, what would you do if you discovered that you were actually born
in, say, Ethiopia, and were brought to the US illegally as an infant?

Would you simply leave for a foreign country you have no knowledge of,
abandoning your life, severing your relationships, giving up all of the
property that you earned through your own endeavors, just because the law is
the law?

Any rule that would compel you to do so is simply, unequivocally _wrong_, and
deserves to be violated.

------
makecheck
I've seen firsthand the waits and the bureaucracy of some of these immigration
documents.

I can tolerate waiting; while frustrating, that's not the real issue. But it's
hard to just _live_ a normal life in limbo, with all the implicit threats.
Your documents are tied to your job, so switching jobs will risk, at minimum,
starting from scratch; and there is a chance of denial and deportation at
every turn. You are also not immune to layoffs, so this can blow up in your
face without warning, giving you a very short period of time to fix it. And in
the end, even if you survive all the hoop jumps, there is still a chance you
will be denied the documents that you've been waiting years to receive.

Compare this to somebody just wanting to do essentially the same work in their
home country, where they probably can, minus all the bullshit. _This_ is why
the U.S. is in danger: because immigrants can only take so much, and at some
point, they simply _will_ move all their ideas and capital back home.

~~~
tokenadult
_But it's hard to just live a normal life in limbo, with all the implicit
threats._

Do immigrants have in all cases a home country to go back to with a better
trade-off in this regard than the United States? As long as some countries are
sufficiently lousily governed, the United States will always have a ready
supply of some kinds of immigrants. The article's point is correct that
persons who are able to set up new businesses with new technologies probably
have better capacity to shop for a country to live in than most migrants.

~~~
kansando
Yes, but some previously lousily governed countries like China and India have
become much better options than they were even ten years ago. The goal is not
to have "some kinds of immigrants", it is to have the best.

~~~
potatolicious
Not to mention that many of the "best" immigrants (i.e. highly trained, highly
educated) have come from first-world industrialized nations to begin with.
Political instability and threat of mortal danger is not the only thing that
compels people to move.

------
tokenadult
The article is interesting in suggesting that comprehensive immigration reform
is a political landmine for this administration, as it has been for previous
administrations. A founder visa would be an interesting incremental change,
especially favored by the readership of HN. Testimony in Congress before
passing such a new law would surely bring up the issue of what happens when a
start-up firm fails, as many do.

A press notice for pg is of course interesting to readers of HN, and it will
be one more proof of his notability (no longer doubted) on Wikipedia.

~~~
hughprime
_The article is interesting in suggesting that comprehensive immigration
reform is a political landmine for this administration, as it has been for
previous administrations._

The trouble is that the kind of "comprehensive immigration reform" which
politically powerful constituencies are currently pushing is nothing like the
kind of immigration reform which would actually be useful.

~~~
vijayr
I'm an immigrant myself, and would love to see these problems fixed. At the
same time, I do understand that U.S has bigger problems like healthcare that
need to be fixed first. Realistically speaking, I doubt much will happen in
the immediate future (next 1-2 years).

One thing is sure though - what US is losing, other countries like Canada, UK
etc (my roomate left for UK last month, after studying in US and working here
for 4 years) are gaining.

~~~
simanyay
I would not be so optimistic about other countries. Both United Kingdom and
Canada closed their immigration programs (former closed the program completely
while the latter removed all CS and IT-related professions from it). AFAIK,
today only Australia has a meaningful immigration program, however, there is
no guarantee that it won't be closed next year. European Union has really,
really strict policies not only on immigration but on temporary workers.

Edited: European Unions -> European Union

------
mynameishere
Presumably, if we aren't the world's tech leader, some other country will be.
India, China, ??? Who?

And once you've decided "who?" ask yourself whether that country will somehow
depend upon open-borders, and whether its prominent web magazines will
propagandize relentlessly for the same.

People who discuss this do not give two flies for America's "tech leadership"
or whatever other baloney abstraction you prefer. It's a political subject
only.

------
petercooper
Forget tech leader - merely being the leader in terms of population growth or
influence requires a significant boost in population. There are many people of
means who would like to move to the US who could fill all those homes sitting
empty and rejuvenate the economy.

------
giardini
The argument: America can't be the world's tech leader without immigration
reform.

But even without immigration reform America _is_ the world's tech leader. So
how did we ever get that way without that "immigration reform"?

Obviously someone's pushing his own agenda. This article is from the
corporations' point of view; other articles take the workers' view.

Corporations want cheaper workers but workers want higher wages. The usual
struggle. Nothing new here.

------
dtap
Does anyone know where I can find the text of the proposal so I can send it to
my congressman?

Not PGs essay, but what the VCs are presenting to Congress. (i.e. Bill #)

------
modeless
I just can't get on board for another specialized program with more
regulations. I wish we could just open the floodgates and let people in;
xenophobes and protectionists be damned. If they're motivated enough to
actually pick up and move here they're the kind of people we want.

------
_ck_
I won't even pretend to begin to understand the politics behind all this but I
am confused - in a nation of over 300 MILLION people, we don't have enough
skilled workers? Seriously? I'm not against immigration at all if people want
a better life and they somehow believe it's here, but we also have double
digit unemployment. I'm definitely missing part of the picture.

~~~
padmapper
There are 300 million people in the US, but in the very specific specialties
at the cutting edge of science and tech, every person is significant, and
can't really be substituted for by another.

Letting in the best of the best is all kinds of win. See "Brain Drain/Gain":
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_drain>

Albert Einstein is one of the more famous examples, but there are quite a few
others.

~~~
_ck_
I guess I am stumbling on the "worker" part of "skilled workers" needed. We're
not importing inventors or CEOs (or "Albert Einsteins"), we're importing
labor, people who know already how to create (technical) widgets from items
A+B+C and there aren't enough of thees knowledgeable people already in the USA
who know how to make A+B+C into widgets?

So these people are skilled in that they learned how to make these widgets in
another country outside the USA, but they want to create the widgets here
instead? Did they stop making the widgets in the other country? Does it pay
more to make widgets here? Why the USA specifically?

(What exactly does the USA produce anymore anyway? Nothing is made here so
what are they making?)

Again, I'm not against immigration, but somehow I think this is a smokescreen.
If someone wants to come to the USA to go to school, to live, I say welcome,
we've got plenty of room, plenty of food, and we need the taxes paid. But
let's not make up reasons to come here?

There are thousands of college students graduating in the USA each year who
are unemployed. If they don't have the exact skills needed I dare say a 4 year
degree proves they can learn the skill rather quickly?

I guess I need real-world examples to understand this better. I still don't
understand why college students aren't being trained for these critical jobs,
especially if they are in a tech sector which is always attractive.

