
Sweden closes four prisons as number of inmates plummets - frank_boyd
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/11/sweden-closes-prisons-number-inmates-plummets
======
draugadrotten
Beware of the political spin!

Note that while the number of _inmates_ plummets, the number of crimes
committed is higher than ever. This is a failure of the police and the justice
system and not a success story.

Nearly 95 percent of violent crimes and robberies committed in Sweden go
_unsolved_ , and an individual police officer solves an average of three
crimes per year.
[http://www.thelocal.se/20081103/15412](http://www.thelocal.se/20081103/15412)

~~~
csmuk
Sounds like Nottingham in the UK's bullshit crime statistics.

"Arrests fallen! Crime rates lower than ever!"

Actually people just do it vigilante style or don't bother reporting it
because the police are fucking useless.

I mean I caught a person breaking into my car, had photos of the person doing
it, the car was covered in finger prints, they arrived in another stolen car
with plates that were photographed, left their tools in the car when disturbed
and the police said they found "no evidence".

Was resolved for a small fee by a private "individual" who knew who they were.

~~~
madaxe
The police are there to:

\- Do you for speeding.

\- Protect the establishment.

\- Threaten violence.

\- Prop up the prison-industrial complex for the benefit of private
corporations.

They are _categorically_ not there to help you. They never have been. This is
a misapprehension that has been around since the days of Peel. A police force
is the state's visible threat of violence against its populace, in order to
exact control and to keep the powerful powerful.

~~~
marvin
This is not how a democratic nation is supposed to work. So please don't hold
up this characterization of the police as something which is inevitable. The
democratic ideal is that the police have a national monopoly on the legal use
of violence, and the use of this violence is dictated by the laws and the
courts. This is how well-working democratic nations work, and it is indeed how
the police force in my home country works.

That anything else can be said about the USA today (maybe also the UK?), is
just a testament to the scale of the democratic problems you guys have. You
are really deep into it, and it doesn't seem like you realize the extent of
the problem.

~~~
madaxe
No, it isn't, but it appears to be the endgame of representative democracy.
I'd suggest reading Hobbes' Leviathan, or perhaps Hayek's Road to Serfdom, if
you haven't already, as both anticipated this exact malaise. The US and the UK
are in the terminal stages of decline.

The representative democratic ideal is ultimately revealed to be a fiction,
and the rule of law is a falsehood - for without a universally applied rule of
law, there is _no_ rule of law - just authoritarianism - and our rule of law
is decidedly not universal, and never has been. One set of rules for us, one
for them.

All representative democracy eventually declines under the same disease of
creeping authoritarianism due to the inevitable desire of entrenched power
structures and bureaucracies to self-sustain and expand. This should not be
mistaken for malice, rather it's the inevitable output of a system optimised
for self-preservation.

The only solution to my mind while maintaining a democratic ideal is either
strict sortition, or direct democracy.

~~~
marvin
This doesn't make sense to me. Why hasn't my native Norway ended up in this
spot? Claiming "it is inevitable" isn't a valid argument, projecting to
unlikely-seeming future scenarios can be used to prove anything. Just because
two big nations have ended up with a screwed-up political system doesn't prove
that it is an inevitability.

~~~
vidarh
Try arguing with a Norwegian police officer. Even calmly. Odds of ending up in
jail overnight are pretty high, though you might find one with a sense of
humour now.

Norway is one of those countries where shouting insults at a police officer
can be illegal where shouting those same insults at a random strangers would
not be - there explicitly is one law for public officials and one for the
rest.

The idea of public officials being above the rest is deeply embedded in the
Norwegian system, and only started fading with the growth of the labour
movement, and steady inclusion of the labour movement into the establishment
starting with the first lasting Ap (labour party) government in 1935 onwards.
Even then, Ap took up the baton (..), and wielded it against the groups to
their own left, with extensive illegal political surveillance for decades.

The reason Norway is _now_ as civilized as it is, is simple:

Norway eventually got filthy rich thanks to the oil. The _average_ salary in
Norway is about 70% above the average salary in the UK, for example, and the
salary curve is far flatter.

We've had social democratic ministers from a party that used argue for
revolution and was an early member of Komintern that are millionaires. A long
range of our past "threats" to the establishment are now wealthy and firmly
embedded in the establishment. The class struggle in Norway is largely "on
hold", and the police is being wielded against immigrants instead.

~~~
marvin
Do you have any sources to back up these claims? Some can probably be
documented with a bit of historical digging, but most of this is just opinion
which does not match my experience.

Not cooperating with the police will get you in trouble _anywhere_ in the
world.

------
chx
> the five countries with the highest prison population are the US, China,
> Russia, Brazil and India.

Blimey, who'd have thought the countries with some of the highest population
will have the most inmates. Then it continues with the per capita numbers
which are a much better comparison but conveniently leaves out the per capita
number for Sweden which according to the numbers in the articles is around 50
-- and India is 30! Not a nice/relevant comparison.

According to Wikipedia, apparently based on the same list just at a different
rate
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcerat...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate)
India is fact one of the lowest per capita.

------
jhomhenvhisst
Murders are down 50% from 1990s, and the number of victims of street violence
is down 30% the last 5 years. But these numbers are not unique for Sweden. The
one type of violence that is up is for organized crime.
[http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/antalet-mord-halverat-
sedan...](http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/antalet-mord-halverat-
sedan-90-talet/) (list of references in swedish)

But yes, we have a very ineffective police force, everyone knows this. We have
more police personnel then ever (huge increase the last years). But solved
crimes are less, or the same.

Note also that we can't use self defense like in the US. It is impossible to
get any kind of license for pepper spray, taser (cops not allowed either),
guns, anything you can defend yourself with. Makes it easy to be a criminal in
Sweden.

~~~
willvarfar
Do you think that an armed general population would _decrease_ violence and
your risk of receiving it?

------
INTPenis
Minor drug offenders are more often fined than jailed.

A friend got caught in his apartment with a grow op, drying cannabis, illegal
mushrooms, other drugs and he ended up serving no time at all.

His time will be financial, he will have to pay off his debt to society
literally instead of being incarcerated.

~~~
Sharlin
AFAIK that's what happens in the US too -- if you happen to be white.

~~~
Dirlewanger
Cut the bullshit, guy. An offense like the guy described would land anyone
doing time anywhere in the US, first offense or not.

------
tokenadult
I was glad to see that the recent article kindly submitted here gives the
inmate count for Sweden, and Sweden's population.

"According to official data, the Swedish prison population has dropped by
nearly a sixth since it peaked at 5,722 in 2004. In 2012, there were 4,852
people in prison in Sweden, out of a population of 9.5 million."

So I looked up my home state of Minnesota's inmate count and population for a
rough comparison.

"State corrections officials are quick to point out that Minnesota’s
incarceration rate is the second lowest in the nation and to note how
favorably Minnesota compares with our neighbor to the east. As of July 1,
Minnesota had a prison population of 9,772 and a prison budget of $457 million
a year. In contrast, Wisconsin has a prison population of about 23,000 and a
prison budget of $1.2 billion."[1] Minnesota has a population of 5.379
million. In general, the state prison population in the United States is
declining,[2] with Maine currently being the state with the lowest rate of
incarceration, and Minnesota's recently fluctuating rate being the second-
lowest. Some states have much higher rates of incarceration, so the overall
United States rate is high.

As the article submitted here suggests, and as the articles I'm linking here
suggest too, all over the world it can reduce incarceration rates to not
punish minor drug offenses with incarceration. A determinate sentencing system
that emphasizes severity of crimes like Minnesota's[3] keeps first-time,
nonviolent offenders out of prison and reserves prison for repeat offenders
with known history of violent offenses.

How does Minnesota's system work for me as a member of the public? I can walk
all over my neighborhood feeling perfectly safe, and even my children can
freely go out in public, walking for a radius of a mile or biking for a radius
of four or five miles in any direction, without risk or fear.

[1] [http://www.minnpost.com/politics-policy/2013/08/how-
minnesot...](http://www.minnpost.com/politics-policy/2013/08/how-minnesota-
can-reduce-its-prison-population)

[2]
[http://www.startribune.com/local/216949031.html](http://www.startribune.com/local/216949031.html)

[3] [http://mn.gov/sentencing-
guidelines/images/2013%2520Guidelin...](http://mn.gov/sentencing-
guidelines/images/2013%2520Guidelines.pdf)

~~~
drivingmissm
Interestingly Minnesota has the largest population of Swedish descendents in
the US.

~~~
ToastyMallows
Source?

------
seivan
Another bullshit article. Crime in Sweden is insane, I don't feel safe
anymore.

We barely jail anyone for crimes, it's always fines and community bullshit
service when it should be prison.

~~~
berrypicker
A lot of people will find this offensive, but it's mostly because of
immigration. Sweden has a one of the most liberal immigration policies in
Europe, with more and more immigrants coming in every year, and crime is
increasing relatively fast. It's not just correlation: serious crime
(violence, theft) is overrepresented in immigrant groups, especially African
and Asian immigrants, who are also less likely to serve prison sentences.
There are statistics available for all these claims but I'll probably just be
labelled a racist and ignored so I won't bother finding them.

~~~
Ygg2
Hmm, crime is present in highly dense, poor areas, color me surprised. /sarc

Crime is increasing because the society can't integrate them fast enough. It's
literally same deal before abortions were an option. More people, less
resource on a local level, leads to crime growing. This has nothing to do with
the minorities, but how they are being handled.

~~~
berrypicker
Most immigrants come to Sweden for a better quality of life, and they get it:
the government gives them housing, social services, education, money etc. Any
place in Sweden, even these 'highly dense, poor areas' you're talking about,
are better than where most immigrants originate.

Yet you blame the rest of society for not 'integrating' them better? I also
hate this constant attributing of violent crime to poverty. There are high
poverty-low crime areas in many countries. If you're willing to blame crime on
some cultural aspect of society, but only in some cases, then it's a double
standard.

~~~
mjn
> I also hate this constant attributing of violent crime to poverty.

This seems like an empirical question, not something to like or hate. Does
poverty drive crime? Is reducing poverty effective in reducing crime? If yes,
then I would say that is a good place for policies to focus.

I know more about Denmark (where I live) than Sweden, but here poor areas do
seem to be by far the source of most crime, and that applies to both
immigrants and non-immigrants who live there. The social problems in the
different communities manifest somewhat differently, but both native &
immigrant communities in the "bad" parts of Copenhagen have social problems.
The biggest difference seems to just be that they join different gangs: ethnic
Danes in areas with high degrees of social problems get involved in mainly-
Danish biker gangs, while immigrants with social problems get involved in
mainly-immigrant gangs. A large feature of Copenhagen crime in recent years
has been the Danish and immigrant gangs fighting for control of the drug
market. (Prior to that, the Danish gangs fought among themselves for it, so
immigrants didn't start this particular problem:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Nordic_Biker_War](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Nordic_Biker_War))

------
yesplorer
China exceeds the Unites states by more than 1 billion people in terms of
population yet the US jail more people than China?!

This seems shocking to say the least.(at least to me)

Yet the US is supposed to be less of a 'policed state' than China.

~~~
vasilipupkin
Have you considered the possibility that higher per capita numbers of jailed
people may reflect police officers doing a better job? In China, it may be
easier for example to bribe the police or the judge and avoid jail.

~~~
JackC
That's really not what's going on here. I mean, yes, the US probably has
better police officers than China. But the real reason we have higher per
capita numbers than anyone else (with the possible exception of North Korea)
is not that we (and possibly North Korea) have the world's best police
officers. It's that we quadrupled our prison population over the last thirty
years (partly by increasing incarceration for drug crimes by 1200%) while the
rest of the world ... didn't.

I mean, look at the numbers:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcera...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate)

\- If you exclude some sub-100K-population countries that probably have weird
statistics, the country with the next highest incarceration rate is Cuba, with
only 75% the incarceration rate of the US. That's the _next highest_.

\- Russia has 67% of our incarceration rate. That's the highest large country
other than the US.

\- There are only 21 countries that have even half of our incarceration rate,
and let's say they're not the ones I think of as having the highest standard
of living in the world.

\- Looking at the western nations that the US traditionally compares itself to
(depending who you think that is), the highest are probably Spain, England and
Wales at 20% of our incarceration rate. Germany is at 11%. France is at 14%.

\- In North America, Canada is at 16% of our incarceration rate. Mexico is at
29%.

In other words, we could let out _three out of four prisoners in the United
States_, and we would still be locking up more people than any of the nations
we consider our peers in terms of wealth, democracy, civil rights, etc.

Given the billions of dollars involved and the millions of lives destroyed and
the decades this has been going on, we must by now have some pretty good
evidence that our extraordinary, unprecedented strategy is better than the
alternative, right? We're applying four times the average dose -- there must
be a measurable effect by now.

Right?

------
willyt
Safety is not the same as feeling safe.

In Britain, about 10-15 years ago, they changed all the emergency services
sirens to the same sound as the police have always used. You used to be able
to tell the difference between an ambulance, a fire engine and a police car
from the sound, now you can't. Also, these days a typical emergency medical
response consists of 2 vehicles, a mobile ER doctor followed up by an
ambulance.

So my point is that in a densely populated area, like London, it now sounds
like the police are all over the place all the time. Actually it's usually a
medical response to an elderly person having a fall or heart problems or such
like but, because they all sound like police, people assume the worst.

If I were a politician and I wanted to introduce a rational and humane policy
for treating the problem of criminality, like they have in Norway, the first
thing I would do is change the sirens for all new fire and ambulance vehicle
purchases so you can tell the difference from police. Then seed the media with
the idea that there are less police sirens than there used to be. People would
think crime had dropped precipitously and your policy would feel like it was a
success as well as actually being a success.

------
Gojja
It´s the supreme court that is not using the whole punishment scale and
indirectly emptying the prisons. For Sweds:
[http://www.fokus.se/issues/2013-43/](http://www.fokus.se/issues/2013-43/)

------
ibsathish
This is a pure political gimmick to project their country as one of the
safest/crime-free countries. As many have said here, Police is run by the
Government and they have the right to manipulate the data.

As a general statistic, if you google it, you'll know the crime rate has been
increasing in the last few years. They either fell into dumb ears or they make
up by letting the criminals out.

What's the point?

~~~
hobbe80
You seem to have a very loose understanding of how the Swedish society works.
The Police is not "run by the Government" \- it's role in the Swedish society
is directed by Polislagen (The Police Law). The Government directs (as it does
with all governmental departments) Rikspolisstyrelsen (The National Police
Board) via broad (and public) assignments and budgets.

The Government (or the Police) have of course no right to manipulate the data
- in Sweden more or less all data is publicly available, and manipulation of
crime statistics would be something very noteworthy (and likely to cause a big
scandal).

And finally, if you google it, you'll know that crime rates have been
decreasing in the last few years (few years meaning 2-3, and looking at all
categories of crimes). Over a 10 year period, some categories of crimes have
risen (at least the number of reported crimes have risen), and others, like
homicide have markedly declined.

~~~
ibsathish
Totally agree and buy your points. But the point of downsizing the number of
jails is what concerns me. Forget crimes in a larger scale or others like
homicide, but minor crimes which are still punishable offenses would be in the
rise as more and more the mankind evolves, crimes in any country would also
evolve.

Obviously, so does the legal system but people are smart enough to find
loopholes and find a way to do.

------
davidw
Meanwhile, fascinating, non-political articles by and for hackers like this
one are going more or less unnoticed:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6691330](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6691330)

------
darkbot
No major Swedish news site is covering this. Interesting.

~~~
jnordgren
[http://www.dn.se/debatt/antalet-fangar-ar-nu-sa-lagt-att-
vi-...](http://www.dn.se/debatt/antalet-fangar-ar-nu-sa-lagt-att-vi-tvingas-
stanga-fangelser/)

More likely the guardian is lagging a few days behind.

------
ffrryuu
You won't be able to do this if the prison are privately run, they need their
profits!

