
Hotel Stays, Especially in Inclement Weather - Mz
http://whathelpsthehomeless.blogspot.com/2016/12/hotel-stays-especially-in-inclement.html
======
jhwhite
A few years ago I ran into a girl I went on a few dates with on the corner
panhandling. She was now homeless. But because she knew me she wouldn't take
anything from me.

I told her she could stay with me for a bit and she said no, I offered to put
her up in a hotel and she said no, I offered money and she said no. She did
let me buy her lunch. I saw her at different corners around town and she would
never take money. But I would sometimes swing by some place and pick up a
breakfast biscuit for her.

I haven't seen her in a while now. I hope she got help.

~~~
dankohn1
Do you believe she was addicted to drugs or alcohol when you saw her on the
street?

~~~
mistermann
Did someone downvote this, because it's a perfectly valid question. It's
maddening that this problem is so hard to solve or even manage to provide
conditions slightly better than third world, and here we have a newly homeless
girl speaking to a "former" I guess peer, and she won't take any help? Why?

~~~
dazc
As someone who's been homeless I'll try and answer from my own perspective. It
is very difficult to accept help sometimes, especially from people you know.
It's partly pride and, maybe, a fear that they'll always hold it against you
somehow?

For example, I have friends and family who would have helped me out if I had
asked but that's the last thing I would ever do, still wouldn't even though I
know it's a sure fire road to ruin.

I got lucky and took help from a stranger at the first opportunity.

Not sure that explains anything other than saying human beings don't always
act rationally?

------
jkraker
There's something subtle behind this that I think is more powerful than the
details of the housing. It's someone taking time to interact and treat them
like a person. I believe that interaction and showing others we value them as
people is one of the most important things for those living in isolation from
society like many homeless people do.

There's no easy way to do this. It's hardly ever convenient. It isn't a
foolproof means of turning situations around. It is, however, extremely
powerful and desperately needed.

Do I practice what I'm saying? Sadly, not enough.

~~~
Mz
I haven't yet written about it, but you might be interested in the film _But
for the Grace of God?_ by Ron Garret:

[http://graceofgodmovie.com/trailer.html](http://graceofgodmovie.com/trailer.html)

~~~
lisper
Thanks for the shout-out, Michelle!

~~~
Mz
It is excellent work and meets my gold standard for the site. * I would like
to see it become a standard part of staff training at homeless services. I
plan to write about it on the site, when I can figure out the right framing.

* [http://whathelpsthehomeless.blogspot.com/p/about.html](http://whathelpsthehomeless.blogspot.com/p/about.html)

~~~
lisper
Thanks. FWIW, GoG was not intended to be a trailing film. The target audience
is people who have never interacted with homeless people beyond saying,
"Sorry, can't help you." That obviously doesn't include anyone working at a
homeless service.

While I was filming a number of my subjects did talk about what they called
the "homeless industrial complex", and how it doesn't really care about
getting people off the streets because that would put it out of business. I
never found out how much truth there was to that, but if I were ever to take
this subject back up again that is were I would probably start.

~~~
Mz
Yeah, training tends to be sucktastic anyway. I used to have long discussions
with people on homeschooling lists about the difference between _training_ and
_education_ and how much of public school and college these days is _training_
rather than _education._

But your film makes a critical and surprising point that I strongly agree
with: These are, first and foremost, _people._ We aren't some separate
population. We come from the rest of the population, but our lives have fallen
apart and one of the most problematic things is the way social ties get cut.

People with more normal lives tend to be oblivious to the social fabric that
defines so much of their life and which buffers them against simply going off
the rails when something negative happens. They don't see this difference
between themselves and homeless individuals, yet the reinforce the isolation
by the way they interact with the homeless (or don't interact at all --
effectively shunning them).

I was pleasantly surprised by the film. I think more people should see it.

~~~
lisper
Thanks. Anything you can do to help promote it would be much appreciated.

------
jaboutboul
It is just me or is anyone else reading the comments getting the feeling that
mental health issues are rampant today probably the most neglected space of
health care or at least public awareness?

Shouldn't society and/or the government do more to increase awareness of these
mental Heath issues and make information and treatments more widely available?

~~~
colechristensen
We're running out of problems to solve and it's a good thing.

Nobody cares much about mental health problems when the primary issue most
people face every day is finding something to eat. As a corollary, I'd bet
there are really significant causal forces at work in many mental health
issues coming from exactly this – the lack of simple problems like food and
shelter at the front in center of life combined with having the basic skills
and environment to tackle those problems daily – drives many mental health
problems.

Lots of people are depressed but almost nobody is starving, almost nobody is
getting murdered or fighting in a war or dying of the common cold. Just about
every baby survives, very few have to defend their home or their families from
attack.... on and on and on. Human life used to be very rough and was not very
long ago. We live in the most peaceful prosperous time in human history (and
almost nobody seems to realize we're living in a paradise compared to a few
hundred years ago).

~~~
mistermann
Well yes, but man, homeless people live in terrible conditions, but I think
even worse than that would be watching everyone go about their lives in
seeming prosperity, knowing you used to be one of them and you can't ever get
back, _and no one cares_. To me, that would hurt.

------
tyingq
Interesting. From the "About Page" on the blog...

 _" The author of this site has about six years of college, including an
incomplete Bachelor of Science degree in Environmental Resource
Management...After the class was over, she continued to volunteer at the
shelter for several more months. Years later, while homeless herself, she
started the San Diego Homeless Survival Guide and also this site."_

It's a shame the idea of helping the homeless via a night in a hotel is such a
manually intensive effort. The article mentions paying in cash, I assume to
avoid liability. Would be nice if there was a way to buy vouchers online that
you could hand out.

~~~
tomschlick
While you could, I doubt hotels would want the reputation of being "The
Homeless Hotel". Then there are other issues like drug use, untreated mental
illness, etc that the homeless are more prone to.

~~~
waspleg
Vouchers also don't do anything for the possible damage/theft. I used to work
hotels, mostly 3rd shift, and none would ever have gone for that. They also
all always require ID cash (photocopied if cash) or not; even in the ghetto.

Let me possibly shatter an illusion though. Staying at a "nicer" more
expensive hotel in not-the-ghetto doesn't make it safe or secure or have any
less problems than the cheap ghetto ones. It just means the room _might_ be
cleaner and you _might_ be compensated something for bitching instead of told
to fuck off. I worked both.

I saw a lot of shit and basically if you go in and they look like they're
cutting corners on things like, and I shit you not and am quoting an Indian
manager fresh off the boat "We're not required to have coffee creamer", run
the fuck away fast. I saw similar places not wash sheets to save soap money
(different hotel, same mind set). I saw meth labs in "nice" hotels. It goes
on.

But you're right they wouldn't do it just for the "reputation of being a
homeless shelter" alone.

~~~
gohrt
> Indian manager fresh off the boat

didn't help me understand the point of your story, but did cast doubt on your
credibility.

~~~
jessaustin
This seems to imply that you haven't experienced the full gamut of motels in
operation in USA. The percentage of innkeepers who are Indian is higher than
that of pretty much any other occupation.

------
gohrt
It seems like the article is long way around of saying that people want or
need nicer accommodations than today's shelters. The difference between a
"shelter" and a "hotel" is (a) of/how you pay (minor detail), and (b) the
quality of the accommodation (privacy, security, comfort).

------
lisper
Back in 2006 I spent two years trying to get a homeless person off the street
and made a movie about it:

[http://graceofgodmovie.com](http://graceofgodmovie.com)

------
interurban
I think there's something being missed here by a lot of commenters. The title
of the blog isn't "What Solves Homelessness", it's "What Helps the Homeless".
As in, right here, right now.

It doesn't take systemic or policy level changes to make someone's day/week
better.

------
saycheese
Idea that the homeless have nowhere to go is a stretch (really, ask them,
don't take my word for it) - and if the author's advice is followed, your
basically spending in a single night (few hundred) what it would cost to feed
them for a whole month.

~~~
pavel_lishin
> _Idea that the homeless have nowhere to go is a stretch (really, ask them,
> don 't take my word for it)_

Everything I've read says that while shelters are available, they typically
have very strict schedules and policies, and staying there opens you up to
theft and assault.

~~~
saycheese
Much like hotels, shelters are not responsible for the security of your things
and I assure you that hotels have more thefts than shelters.

As for assaults, no shelter is going to allow an assult to happen and if an
assault does happen, the police would be called. If you believe assaults are
common at shelters, which they are not, call a shelter or the related police
station and ask how many assaults they have had reported in the past year.

Everywhere has rules and polices, including hotels. Shelters are free and they
have reasons for the rules.

~~~
Bartkusa
>> call a shelter or the related police station and ask how many assaults they
have had reported in the past year.

• If assaults happened in shelters, why would the shelters ever tell you?

• Why would anyone ever tell the police? I can't imagine the homeless victims
would want the police MORE involved in their lives.

• Even if someone told the police about an assault at a shelter, would they
bother to investigate, or keep records? Police have incentives to reduce crime
stats, which isn't the same as reducing crime.

~~~
helb
> would they bother to investigate, or keep records

They absolutely would[1] here (central/east Europe). Is it different in the
US?

[1] I run a local news site and we get these kind of stories all the time. Not
just press releases from state or municipal police, but messages from the
people themselves.

------
dawnerd
I've known some homeless people, and for them, it was mental illness that kept
them on the streets. They thought everyone was out to get them or control
their life. It's a shame that they all want the handouts, but they don't want
to follow any rules that come with it.

What I realized is a lot of these people don't want any responsibilities.
They're not willing, or able to accept that life sucks for everyone. The
governments need to start offering better mental health care that doesn't
involve locking people up in hospitals (something an old friend of mine had
happen to him, and it caused him to lose trust in everyone).

I don't think giving people hotel rooms is going to solve any problems - if
anything it's just enabling it. A better solution is to expand affordable
housing and job programs so people start to get back on their feet while
ultimately leaving the decisions up to them. Ultimately if they want to live
under a bridge that a choice they've made and there's nothing we can really do
about it.

~~~
tekklloneer
You hit the nail on the head, and then turned it into a condemnation and
missed the point and problem entirely.

It's mental illness. The reason they won't "follow any rules" is because
they're mentally ill. There's no easy answer, and saying "there's an easy
answer, but it won't work for them" isn't actually an easy answer.

Many of them are very mentally ill, and living under a bridge is not a choice
they've made willingly.

If someone's too mentally incapable of holding a job, or reading, or clothing
themselves, then is it right that we force them under a bridge?

Note: I am responding to your comment, not to the practicality of the
article's proposed solution.

------
morgante
> The current shelter system very often warehouses people in conditions that
> would not be acceptable for any kind of paid accommodations, whether it be
> temporary accommodations (like a hotel) or permanent (like an apartment or
> house).

I'm curious how homeless shelters compare to (paid) hostels, which are far
more economical than hotels. They're (I assume) both in a dormitory setting.

Hotels are obviously not economically feasible as a long-term solution. I
think the risk of this proposal is that they are _not_ a reasonable on-ramp to
society, as even if you can get a stable job you almost certainly cannot
afford to live in a hotel full-time. On the other hand, some sort of hostel-
style accommodation would be reasonable.

------
s369610
I think we should shine the spotlight on the number of homeless. Instead of
the weather/temperature and the rise and fall of some key stocks at the end of
a news broadcast, we should also report the number of homeless by region and
whether it has gone up or down. It certainly feels like it should be more
important.

~~~
rtkwe
That's a number that's both hard to accurately count just because of the
population you're trying to measure and unlikely to change very often because
of the cost and difficulty of measuring it so I'm not really sure it'd really
have the effect you're looking for.

------
scythe
Interesting idea. Do you know of any case where it has worked? From the way
the article was written I was sort of expecting to hear a case study.

Speculation roundup:

There are two economic values of a homeless person, actually any person, but I
digress. P is the cost, to the state, of keeping that person alive and
medically stable, which includes police and health services, as well as
shelter costs, soup kitchens, etc. V is the value generated by the homeless
person through their labor, which varies much more than some people expect.
Many homeless people have jobs. But for many homeless people it's zero.

Ways of decreasing P include a number of creative policies designed recently
as well as "short-term" tolerance of outdoor living. Ways of increasing V by
contrast are generally limited to:

* standard inpatient mental health "treatment", has a slim chance of success and a large chance of backfiring and setting V to zero for a long time, also sends P through the roof

* outpatient medication, has a similarly tiny chance of success but a smaller chance of backfiring and is much cheaper

* prison labor, effective but brings to mind immediately _The Road to Serfdom_ and other dystopian fictions (heh)

* ???

Creative ways of increasing V ought to depend on economic fundamentals, i.e.
finding out what a homeless person is good for and exploiting that, to wit:
homeless people tend to beat normal people at dealing with homeless people.
They might also be able to help out with e.g. trash pickup or road
maintenance. The typical road-map people envision for increasing V looks like
this:

homeless -> [treatment] -> normal

but in reality looks more like this:

very low V -> [treatment] -> low V -> [more treatment] -> slightly low V ->
[more treatment] -> mediocre V -> [more treatment] -> with luck normal V

The typical way of dealing with the intermediate stages currently consists of
either locking them in a small compound with shitty beds and twelve other
crazy people or giving them a bottle of pills and hoping Jesus can handle the
rest. This, really, is the problem. Halfway housing for homeless people might
look like a situation where housing is provided in return for part-time labor.

I'd also like to point out that while in "treatment" for homelessness it might
not be reasonable to demand _complete_ sobriety when you consider that you're
preparing them for eventual release into a world where they'll be allowed to
drink alcohol and smoke cigarettes and probably marijuana and their drug use
will not be so heavily monitored. Supporting the development of self-control
means that people have to be able to have a little control in the first place,
and the ability to make small mistakes before making big ones

~~~
mjevans
If you want to look at it from a purely numbers perspective I suggest we re-
label some of your variables.

Net value (delta, etc) being the summation of all Costs (you call this P for
some reason) and all Benefits (You call this V, which is why I'm calling the
result 'net').

We will presume humane solutions only. We are unwilling to leave people to die
of sickness, mal-nutrition, exposure to the elements or lack of social safety
mechanisms. To allow any of those preventable deaths is to admit that our
society is morally and/or financially bankrupt.

In short, letting them die or killing them isn't a solution.

So, as a society, we must make them human again.

Survival: We must ensure that they are able to fulfill their daily physical
needs. They also require shelter, and medical care; just as everyone else
does.

Belonging: It is in society's best interest to identify what types and how
much work needs, or is desirable to be, fulfilled. It is also in society's
best interests to identify potential workers that can meet these needs and
offer them training in that type of work. This can't really help with
relationships, but forming a stable life and a community that can include the
worker is a good foundation for that to happen within.

Empowerment: Belonging, and being 'useful' and desirable to have around are
likely the underpinnings of esteem and a sense of having worth. Without these
building blocks there is little hope of becoming more than a slave animal or
worse.

Fixing these issues would help everyone, not just the most disadvantaged.

