
2015 Tesla Model S P85D First Test - mountaineer
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/1411_2015_tesla_model_s_p85d_first_test/
======
slipangel
As an auto enthusiast, I generally feel "yucky" after surveying the comments
and feedback following a Tesla press release. C&D and MotorTrend generally
bias hard for anything American made, which is fine and par for the course. My
discomfort comes from the feeling that journalists are making the Model S out
to be a competitive alternative to a high performance automobile, which it is
not.

A Model S can't make a single lap in anger around Mazda Raceway without the
software putting it in limp mode to prevent heat build up from causing
permanent damage. A half-day jaunt through twisty mountain roads is absolutely
out of the question. It is a car that can drag race from a stop, hit a freeway
on-ramp with some gusto, and give you carbon-free credentials the rest of the
time.

No one shopping for an M3, 911, or AMG product who actually intends to use
them for their performance is cross-shopping a Model S as a like-for-like
option, but the press consistently paints the picture that Tesla is a gas-free
alternative or even superior to current offerings. I don't intend to degrade
what it is, because it is a marvel of modern business, politics, and a little
engineering that this car exists. I simply feel gross when I see how much hype
puts it up for the Model S being something it isn't.

~~~
umsm
I don't own a high-performance car and have never driven a Model S, but to me
this car is truly unique in it's category.

You can't compare the Model S with gas-powered engines that had many decades
to be refined. Considering everything, the Model S appears to have made a
larger jump than any other car in recent history.

It's not designed to be raced on a track, but it does give you an edge in some
situations where any other EV or most gas powered vehicles won't.

~~~
rebootthesystem
> You can't compare the Model S with gas-powered engines that had many decades
> to be refined.

Well, there's nothing in a Model S that is earth shattering in terms of
technology.

The batteries are used in laptops and model airplanes. That technology has
been around for ages and continues to improve well outside of the automotive
industry.

We've known how to make super high efficiency electric motors for, well, I am
only guessing, a century [1]. Large electric motors that are over 90%
efficient were built decades ago. With the shift to brushless Cobalt and
Neodymium based motors we've been able to shrink them and increase their
output power. Again, I'll use the example of the early pioneers in model
airplane electric flight who were building high efficiency 2KW motors that fit
in the palm of your hand decades ago. Switched reluctance drives have also
been around for decades, they can deliver insane amounts of power in a very
small volume with no magnets and really good efficiency. Control is more
difficult.

If I had to guess I would suggest that the advances brought forth by Tesla
have been in control and safety. Building a huge battery pack that is safe in
a crash requires careful engineering. They had to figure that out. Of course,
they build their own motors and have developed their own advanced control
electronics for these motors. The rest is, if I dare say, standard automotive
engineering work.

Again, not diminishing Tesla in any way. I am just countering the "walking on
water" aura that seems to orbit around anything Tesla. They should be praised
for what seems like flawless execution and laser-like market focus. They are
building a fantastic world-class high-end electric car. And it is fantastic.
Supernatural? No. A work of engineering art? Absolutely.

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_motor](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_motor)

~~~
umsm
> Well, there's nothing in a Model S that is earth shattering in terms of
> technology.

Of course the car or company is not supernatural. But there's a HUGE
difference between saying "anyone could have done it" and ACTUALLY doing it.
That's the key to understanding the reviews.

I am not sure anyone is reviewing the electric motors. They are not reviewing
how efficient their motor is or even how small it is. They are reviewing the
car as a whole.

I believe you can say similar things of any market leader. Rarely does someone
change a market and invent great technology or are involved in engineering
marvels. But they do solve the problem in such a way that is significantly
gives them a lead.

~~~
nawitus
Is Tesla the market leader? Nissan's Leaf is the best selling electric car in
history.

------
josefresco
I don't think the average consumer understands or appreciate how Tesla is
different. I often talk with family members about Musk and Tesla and most
don't really get what's so different than say another all-electric car. For
example this:

"During a chat with Musk at the P85D's introduction, he mentioned that on
average, Tesla implements about 20 modifications to the car per week. Not
software, mind you, but actual hard parts. Per week."

I'm sure traditional car makers tweak hardware as well, but it seems Tesla's
focus on software-esque hardware iteration is unique. Their willingness to
push updates constantly breaks from the "mid-cycle" refresh and small year-
over-year iterations commonplace amongst all established automakers.

And this:

"Lift the front trunk's lid (the frunk, they call it), and you're struck by
how much all of this was anticipated back when the Model S was penned. What
was a recessed cavity near the firewall becomes the new forward engine room
with enough left to swallow a duffle bag and retain its terrific 5-star
frontal crash performance."

This is not just a scrappy startup car maker just getting by with an
acceptable but not brilliant first generation product. You get the feeling
that Tesla is always three steps ahead yet are confident enough to reveal them
one-at-a-time.

~~~
drzaiusapelord
Well, I certainly appreciate it, but like a lot of people dismiss it, at least
currently, as toys for rich people. I can't afford a 90k car, no matter how
awesome it is. All these breathless Tesla testimonials are great, but in my
head its like listening to some guy talk about how wonderful the leather is in
his Maserati. It is so far outside my economic world that it might as well not
exist.

I know there's this mythology that Elon will magically deliver a 25k electric
that changes the world, but if anything, they've double-downed on the luxury
market with that giant non-city friendly SUV and, more complexity and cost,
with their driver assist stuff.

Meanwhile, the Leaf and Volt keep dropping in price. VW has moved into the
market, as well as BMW. Oh, low price leaders like Kia haved move in as well.
2015 EVs are still pricey, but no where in the same league as Tesla.

At this point I'm finding it very hard to believe Musk will ever leave the
profitable premium car market. A 25-30k Tesla would hurt the brand and he'd be
competing with larger companies with the scale and know-how to get Joe
Everyman on-board, and worse, coming to the low-end game very late.

~~~
mediaman
Tesla is using the luxury market to finance the rollout to the mass market. It
was the only way they could do it, because to achieve the economics needed for
the mass market, you need a lot of money. It would have been essentially
impossible for them to do it from the start, because they're not Nissan and
they didn't have the ability to invest billions pre-revenue.

Witness, for example, the $5 billion gigafactory they're building, of which
Tesla is contributing $2 billion. This only could happen because they now have
access too good financing (their recent convertible bond issuance) which could
only happen because of the success of the Model S. And the other $3 billion
being contributed by partners? That wouldn't have happened if they didn't have
the credibility coming from making the Model S a success. And in any case, the
gigafactory would make no sense to build if they truly intended to keep to the
"luxury EV's for rich people" market because it's too much capacity for that
segment.

I don't know that Tesla will ever compete in the $25-30k market as you state,
or at least not for a while -- their stated goal is a $35k car for the Model
3, and I wouldn't be surprised if that goes up to $40k at release, but that's
still worlds apart from an $80k car in terms of affordability. Especially
factoring in consumers' savings from gas (NPV of $10 - 15k), that gets to the
point where they can sell serious volume, even if it's on the high end of the
"everyman's car" that a $20 - 25k car would be.

------
ISL
The 3.1 second 0-60 time is the equivalent of a 0-60 distance of 136 feet.
That's impressive in comparison with the 113-foot 60-0 stopping distance.

The car is only 20% slower speeding up than it is slowing down. One wonders
what they could do in 0-60 and 60-0 times if the tires were replaced with
gears and the road with a geared track. It only takes 250' of track, less than
a football field, to find out.

Put another way, this four-door sedan reaches 60 mph when it's made it to the
45-yard line of an american football field.

~~~
Cthulhu_
Has that ever been done? I can imagine it'd just skip out of the gears and
crash horribly. You know, like square wheels. Fitting warmed-up soft slicks
and doing it on an F1 track or specialized tarmac would probably yield better
results.

~~~
mox1
I think the torque output would probably break internal drive train components
as soon as you hit the accelerator on a gear type setup (you also cant use the
back tires for output, it will flip the car over).

You actually want / need some tire flex to absorb the initial torque. This is
especially true with electric motors, where 100% of the torque shows up
instantly (gas engines have a torque curve)

Watch a NHRA funny car start in slow motion. The big fat back tires actually
wrinkle up into themselves a lot, then spring back out[1].

1\.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8vf0QiK5TQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8vf0QiK5TQ)

~~~
cc438
It would definitely shred the drivetrain. The Tesla's Drive Unit is already
the weak link in the chain when it comes to hard acceleration, they've been
failing left and right after a few thousand miles which caused Tesla to bump
their powertrain warranty up to 125,000/Unlimited miles depending on the model
(the 65kwh version has the lesser warranty).

The Drive Unit in the Model S was designed by Borg Warner and looks roughly
similar to this cutaway of the Roadster's gearset:
[http://www.sae.org/dlymagazineimages/web/516/7953_8579.png](http://www.sae.org/dlymagazineimages/web/516/7953_8579.png)

The issue is in the straight gear-to-gear interface where ~600NM of torque is
transferred through a contact area measured in square centimeters. Modern
metallurgy can produce some very strong alloys but any flaw means the gear
teeth will wear at an incredible rate, leading to the widespread reports of
noisy/failed Drive Units. I'd imagine that future designs will use a planetary
gearset which spreads the force over more teeth/surface area, that type of
gearset would look like this:
[http://www.rohloff.de/uploads/pics/planeten_start.en.jpg](http://www.rohloff.de/uploads/pics/planeten_start.en.jpg)

------
mkaufmann
Impressive acceleration time! The new record for accelerating from 0-100 km/h
of only 1.785 seconds was just set a few days ago[1]. The car required less
than 30 meters to accelerate to this speed. Of course it was only a prototype
car but still impressive to see the limits.

[1][https://www.ethz.ch/en/news-and-events/eth-
news/news/2014/11...](https://www.ethz.ch/en/news-and-events/eth-
news/news/2014/11/Grimsel_bricht_Weltrekord.html)

~~~
masklinn
The current non-prototype (/production car) record holder is the 918 Spyder
with 2.2s (and a slightly higher base MSRP of $845000)

~~~
coldpie
Although they're already sold out, so you'll have to pick one up on the used
market. ;)

~~~
giarc
And that used price will most definitely be increasing as a 918 recently burnt
up.

[http://ca.autoblog.com/2014/09/29/porsche-918-spdyer-
update-...](http://ca.autoblog.com/2014/09/29/porsche-918-spdyer-update-gas-
station-fire-burned-pics-gallery-video-michael-wekerle-wek/)

------
danbee
"email-instant reflexes" < This isn't the compliment I think they were going
for!

~~~
RankingMember
Haha, I thought the same thing, like "what email service has this guy been
using?". When they brought the comparison around to the Pony Express it made
more sense.

------
moconnor
I think a motoring review of an electric car that doesn't feel the need to
mention range or recharging problems marks a significant shift in public
perception of EVs.

------
masklinn
For what it's worth, the relevant Wikipedia page[0] lists the P85D as #24 on
the list of fastest-accelerating _production_ cars, far behind e.g. the
911GT3, Aventador, McLaren P1 or the ridiculous 918 Spyder's 2.2.

It _is_ however listed as the fastest-accelerating sedan/non-supercar, a
hair's breadth in front of the Audi RS7 and the Mercedes E63AMG's 3.2.

[0]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fastest_production_cars...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fastest_production_cars_by_acceleration)

~~~
GFischer
Interestingly enough, it's priced similarly to both the RS7 and the E63 AMG.

------
zaroth
Just $11,000 in frosting. Right... What I want to know is where are they
taking $40k _off_ of the price to make a sedan that a larger percentage can
own.

I love the quote about 100 changes. Constant innovation. Do any of the
hardware upgrades flow into the field? Is the chassis modular enough to bother
upgrading?

~~~
gutnor
Selling a few high end car (Porsche) and selling a mass-market car (VW, Ford)
are vastly different businesses. Boutique style pampering you get today when
buying a Tesla does not scale, or at least not easily. For example, online
buying, Tesla shop, even the SuperCharger network would need to scale
dramatically.

They could do it, like Apple. But with this news and the opening of their
patent sooner, I'm just wondering if they are not simply giving up on the mass
market leaving it to generalist brands like Toyota, VW, ... IMO that would not
be so bad, they risk to devaluate their brand significantly in the mass market
if they fuck up there and fucking up there has a not much to do with
technology. ( after all, brand like Toyota have Lexus counterpart just for the
purpose of splitting luxury from mass market )

edit: as suggested s/specialist/generalist.

~~~
afarrell
s/specialist/generalist. Unless you are using a different definition for those
words, I don't know why you would call Toyota a specialist brand relative to
Tesla.

~~~
gutnor
"specialist in the mass market" I meant, but yeah "generalist" is definitively
better.

~~~
afarrell
Just a guess: did your brain think "someone with expertise in the mass market"
and then shorten "someone with experience" to "specialist"?

~~~
gutnor
Somewhat, brain went straight to "brand specialising in mass market" which was
already incorrect but still understandable. Unfortunately I also wanted to
avoid repeating "mass market" hence the shortening.

"Specialising in $0"=="someone with expertise in $0" is wired in my brain
without any validation of $0.

------
gambiting
I said this before but I will say it again - I will happily pay money for a
chrome plugin which allows for automatic conversion of every imperial unit
into SI unit on any website visited. Or maybe a built-in JS script which does
it depending on where you visit the page from(or a toggle on the top).

~~~
lectrick
[https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/autoconvert-
auto-c...](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/autoconvert-auto-
currency/pbghjbbdfkjffaalmcfgelakmeckapnd?hl=en)

That may do the job

~~~
gambiting
Oh my god. This is it - fantastic plugin. Thank you!

------
RankingMember
Every time I read a Tesla article like this I feel like I'm dreaming. Actual,
usable, daily-driven electric cars with performance comparable to dino-powered
cars were talked about as being vaporware for the longest time. It's amazing
to see this company keep moving.

That said, I can't wait to see their "everyman" offering, whenever that
arrives. I could see them making it a sub-brand so that they could scale down
the service to make it financially feasible (and so the rich could still feel
like big shots when they say "I've got a Tesla" without people thinking they
mean the everyman car).

~~~
zarkov99
I have an S already and am also looking forward to the III. I am not worried
about the brand loosing value by producing an everyday car and I do not know
any other owners that are. I hope Tesla doesn't go for those cheap gimmicks
and just continues to focus on engineering excellence.

I do hope they can maintain their level of service as well. I think they will.
The S is already a fairly reliable car and electric cars are fundamentally
more reliable that their gas counterparts and by the time the III comes out
Tesla will have improved their QA further.

------
ck2
When is the Model X shipping?

I can't afford either but if I am going to have a fantasy car I want the X

[http://www.teslamotors.com/modelx#modelx-rotator-
spin](http://www.teslamotors.com/modelx#modelx-rotator-spin)

~~~
warrenmiller
Fall 2015

~~~
ck2
I know that is what it says but wouldn't they have to be demo-ing the X by now
for mass manufacturing to be happening and completed by then?

~~~
scott_karana
I agree! Where are the spy shots? I haven't seen "boo".

------
chrisBob
My favorite part of the article is the comments at the bottom about how the
sucker buying a Dodge Charger will have to pay for gas. I had a friend a few
years ago who bought a $15,000 BMW motorcycle to save gas money 4 months a
year in New York, and now you can go one better: buy a $120,000 car and then
leach off of the supercharger network.

I love Teslas, but buy one because it is an amazing luxury car with an AWD
option, not because it is the best financial decision.

~~~
Igglyboo
The all electric engine is important in the long run but the people who are
currently buying teslas aren't the people who care about gas prices.

~~~
mikeash
I don't know about that. I see quite a few people talking about buying one, or
actually buying one, and the savings in gas is a big part of it. It may sound
crazy, but it makes sense for people who would spend that much on a car
anyway, and who drive a lot. If you're debating between a Tesla and a Corolla
then the gas savings doesn't matter much. If you're debating between a Tesla
and a similarly-priced BMW and you drive a lot, saving several thousand
dollars a year in gasoline can be nice. People who spend a lot of money on
cars don't suddenly not want to save money.

------
mrfusion
offshot topic, from reading the stats at the end of the article: How are cars
with higher city than highway milage not violating conservation of energy?

I've heard the explanation that regenerative braking in city driving recharges
the battery, but surely it's still better to not brake at all, right? You must
incur some loss recharging the battery from kinetic energy?

~~~
jcampbell1
Lower speeds mean lower air resistance. City fuel economy should be higher
than highway if braking energy is recovered at a high enough efficiency.

~~~
mrfusion
Good point. So really the best milage would be going a constant but lower
speed? Like 50MPH?

~~~
mikeash
Yep. Don't confuse "highway" for "best". My Prius v is rated at 44 city and 40
highway. If I drive it for extended periods on back roads (i.e. mostly around
55MPH) I can easily get 60+MPG. Optimal speed for any given car will vary
depending on the engine, the gearing, and other such things, but typical
highway speeds are usually beyond it. This is especially true with hybrids,
which can reduce or eliminate a lot of the efficiency losses that normal cars
suffer from at lower speeds.

~~~
blisterpeanuts
That's remarkable. My Prius V (2013) gets about 49 mpg when I drive 55 MPH on
smooth, level roads. A couple of times I've hit 50 mpg. Also, I frequent the
Prius Chat forum and I've never heard of anyone getting 60+ mpg. Have you
modified your vehicle? Is it a plug-in?

~~~
mikeash
Weird. It's as stock as stock can be. I get 48-50MPG in my normal mix of
city/interstate driving. That's on the clock, so de-rate by 5% or so for real
MPG as calculated by miles on the odometer divided by gas purchased. Best I
saw was 65MPG on the clock over a ~2 hour drive on various country roads
coming back to my house, and not flat either (but a pretty minor net elevation
change).

------
sbierwagen

       It consists of long-range radar, a single forward-looking 
      video camera, and 12 ultrasonic sensors to create a 16-foot 
      bubble around the car providing lane-keeping, full drogue-
      chute emergency stopping, and autonomous following in stop-
      and-go traffic. It has long-range radar, a single forward-
      looking video camera, and 12 ultrasonic sensors that create a 
      16-foot bubble around the car to allow for lane-keeping, full 
      drogue-chute emergency stopping, and autonomous following in 
      stop-and-go traffic.
    

Whoops.

------
kmfrk
How much of a problem is using Tesla vehicles in cold climates these days? I
recall adverse battery performance as a result being up for discussion a while
ago.

~~~
comboy
I don't own one, but they recently added some cold climate pack on their
ordering page, so I guess they are taking that into account. Especially that
Netherlands is/was their second biggest client.

~~~
mikeash
The cold climate option just adds extra seat heaters and wiper defrosters and
such accessories. It doesn't impact the fundamental troubles with the battery
and such.

The Model S battery pack has an active heating and cooling system, so it
avoids a lot of the problems that batteries have in the cold. The main trouble
it has is that it needs to expend some energy to warm up the battery pack,
meaning that you lose some range when starting cold. Secondary trouble is that
cabin heating isn't free the way it is with gas cars, which also costs some
range. If you're plugged in, you can mitigate these problems by telling the
car to warm up in advance, which will heat both the cabin and the battery
using mains electricity, saving the battery for driving. If you're not plugged
in or just forget to heat the car in advance, everything still works, you'll
just lose some range.

I think you mean Norway rather than Netherlands there, and Tesla is apparently
hugely popular there. Whatever trouble it has in cold weather can't be too
bad.

------
lispm
The typical Porsche/BMW/Mercedes/Audi will easily get past it on the Autobahn.
At 250 km/h the battery will be empty quite fast...

~~~
masklinn
> At 250 km/h the battery will be empty quite fast…

Then again, the typical high-performance sedan doesn't have much range either
at 250km/h. At that speed, a 3-series will burn through 30L/100km and they
have a 60L tank. A 5-series has a 70L tank but I don't know how much fuel it
goes through at 250. I don't expect significantly better efficiency though.

------
DENIKUTA
absolutely this site a good site thank for share, ;??
[http://denikuta.blogspot.com/2014/04/terobsesi-ahli-pakar-
se...](http://denikuta.blogspot.com/2014/04/terobsesi-ahli-pakar-seo-
indonesia.html)

