
Boston Red Sox Used Apple Watches to Steal Signs Against Yankees - coloneltcb
https://nytimes.com/2017/09/05/sports/baseball/boston-red-sox-stealing-signs-yankees.html
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fcbrooklyn
A couple of things about sign stealing, from someone who is not an expert, but
has watched a great deal of baseball:

1) The signs are usually not complex, you can easily read them yourself when
you see them on TV. One finger might mean a fastball, two fingers some kind of
breaking ball, three fingers might be the pitcher's least favorite pitch.
Often, the sign is accompanied by a second sign indicating where the catcher
wants it. So one finger followed by a hand lifting up-up, means he wants a
high fastball. The players will know what the signs mean after one batter at
most.

2) The only time the batting team can actually see the signs is when there's a
runner on second. In this case, frequently, the catcher will go to the mound
and he and the pitcher will come up with some simple obfuscation. Normally
this looks like 3-4 signs indicated in quick succession. I assume they've
agreed that number 3 is the meaningful one or something.

3) The communication doesn't have to be perfect. In a lot of cases, a batter
is waiting for a specific pitch. It would be enough to signal "Yeah, it's
gonna be a fastball outside".

The article suggests that a specific camera crew was the original source of
the signs, but it's not clear how that worked. It happened in Boston, so
perhaps the camera was manned by local people who turned out to be red sox
fans. If such a person was watching a continuous feed, and a specific redsox
player asked to be alerted when a high fastball was coming, the apple watch
would seem to be a practical solution.

~~~
pjungwir
Do batters bat better with a runner on second?

Actually the relative performance for all the different base combinations
would be pretty interesting to know. Only eight possibilities!

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NaOH
Baseball statisticians—sabermetricians, as they're known—consider there to be
24 possibilities depending upon runners occupying bases and the number of
outs. You can see prior data here for what is called the run-expectancy matrix
of these 24 base/out states:

[http://www.tangotiger.net/re24.html](http://www.tangotiger.net/re24.html)

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supercanuck
Keep in mind, for those doubting the efficacy, its not necessary to know what
exact pitch is coming (Fastball, curve, slider, change up,etc).

Just knowing whether it is a fastball or an off speed is enough, at which
point, it simply becomes a matter of transmitting a binary signal.

Transmitting the sign, could be as easy as sending a 1 or 2, then the dugout
simply yelling, "Let's go so-so" for offspeed, or "C'mon #12" for fastball.

Most major league pitchers not named, Kershaw, Felix, Max, etc, only have 2 ++
pitches,

~~~
dmix
So what is being 'stolen' is something that largely comes down to a 50%
probability in most situations?

Is there a history of 'stealing signs' in baseball? ...Since it could be
communicated _almost_ as effectively offline as by a smartwatch.

Also, how accurate can the team read the other team's signs from the dugout?
Is it a high probability the information between sent to the players is
accurate?

~~~
azernik
Another way of phrasing that is: 1 bit of information. In a very competitive
sport.

And yes, there is a long history of this, as the article makes clear; and, as
the article also makes clear, rules specifically limit the methods by which
such information can be acquired and transmitted, which using an Apple Watch
violates. Kind of like how part of the strategy of bridge is efficient use of
a well-defined and restricted information channel, and using other methods to
transmit the same information is considered cheating.

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harryh
It's hard to follow what the Red Sox were actually doing but it sounds like
the actual sign stealing was being done with cameras. They were just using
Apple Watches to receive messages (probably just plain on SMS or iMessage?) in
the dugout. If I've understood correctly it sounds like the "electronic
devices" part of the story is kind of peripheral.

~~~
40acres
SMS or iMessage is probably too slow, trainers were probably using physical
cues (like if I touch my cap it's a slider) to relay messages.

~~~
giarc
No... from the article "The commissioner’s office then confronted the Red Sox,
who admitted that their trainers had received signals from video replay
personnel and then relayed that information to some players — an operation
that had been in place for at least several weeks."

The video replay personnel are sending messages, via Apple watch to the
trainers.

~~~
40acres
Ah I see, I'm referring to the message transaction from trainer to player.

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trapperkeeper74
It's 2017. If on-field only electronic communication systems were legal in
baseball, why couldn't pitchers and catchers have some sort of encrypted
"Google Glass"-like head-mounted display and chording glove-button system?

~~~
dsr_
If it were legal to do so, they would. But they'd be much more likely to just
set up an audio system.

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pjdemers
Given the Red Sox lost 3 out of 4 in that series, the Yankees should just
given them a video feed next time.

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hitgeek
i'd be surprised if this scheme was actually successful.

its very difficult to relay signs from the dugout to the batter in the few
seconds between when the sign is given and when the pitch is thrown.

base runners on second base have always been able to see the signs between
pitcher and catcher and relay the information to the batter. To counter this
catchers use a complex combination of signs that change inning to inning,
sometimes batter to batter.

~~~
spike021
Not sure. Batters already look back to the dugout sometimes in order to know
if they want a bunt, squeeze play, hit and run, etc. That doesn't take more
than 3-5 seconds. If they already coordinate some kind of sign between the
trainer (in question) and a player, then it shouldn't take any more time.

~~~
fcbrooklyn
The catcher throws the sign after the batter has taken his stance. No more
looking at the dugout.

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joshmn
Is this YC-able? Is there a pending RFS? Neural network/machine learning for
major sports leagues and subsequent advantages? The market is huge, guys. Just
think of all the cross-platform potential between all major sports.

In other news, here's some stats[0]:

Red Sox with a runner on second at Fenway: 273/373/417

Red Sox with a runner on second at Fenway, April thru July: 269/370/380 (94
for 352)

Red Sox with a runner on second at Fenway, August: 292/392/557 (31 for 106)

Red Sox with a runner on second at Fenway vs the Yankees, April/July:
056/103/056 (2 for 36)

Red Sox with a runner on second at Fenway vs the Yankees, August: 375/448/625
(9 for 24)

The August series is the series in question.

[0]
[https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/6yaos8/boston_red...](https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/6yaos8/boston_red_sox_used_electronic_devices_to_steal/dmlxdcw/)

~~~
saghm
Not disputing that the cheating was happening, but sample size for August is
smaller, not to mention that hitters in general do better during than the
summer months than April/May.

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canistr
Good time to remind people about the previously false accusations from the
Yankees on the Blue Jays sign stealing using a "Man in White" sitting the
outfield with binoculars.

The interesting part here is that the Yankees alleged the "Man in White" was
positioned right above the pitcher's head in the outfield seats so that the
batter did not have to move his head in order to see the signal.

I can't imagine the logistics and speed required to relay a signal from the
outfield -> dugout -> batter in a reasonable amount of time to be able to hit.

[http://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/6837424/baseball-
tor...](http://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/6837424/baseball-toronto-blue-
jays-suspicion-again-stealing-signs-rogers-centre)

~~~
golfer
The Red Sox have admitted to the wrongdoing. This is not crying wolf. They are
guilty.

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Touche
It's always baffled me that the pitcher doesn't get to decide what pitch to
throw.

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thefalcon
The pitcher has final say, but a good battery (pitcher-catcher combo) is
especially valuable because it lets the pitcher focus on throwing his pitches
(and tracking runners as needed) instead of also involving him in the batter-
pitcher mind games. Smart catchers are very under-rated by most casual fans,
and can tell you why they called every single pitch in every single at-bat in
a ball game (which will run well over a hundred pitches a game).

~~~
aidenn0
Don't think meat, just throw!

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBUS3vQtDCA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBUS3vQtDCA)

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dogruck
Someone finally found a killer app for the Apple Watch!

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carfacts
How did they ensure the sign interpretation was correct? Seems like the
information/disinformation problem in espionage.

~~~
sokoloff
You get immediate feedback when the pitch is thrown, which is prior to the
next time you need to interpret the signs.

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bitmapbrother
What is it with Boston sport teams and their penchant for stealing signs.
First it was the Patriots with recording signs from their opponents defensive
coaches and now it's the Red Sox stealing signs.

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mannykannot
The Sox didn't have many choices - you can't deflate a baseball.

~~~
bitmapbrother
True, but you can cork a bat.

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beedogs
Being a fan of Boston sports must be tiring. Defending the indefensible year
after year can't be fun.

