
The preachers getting rich from poor Americans - thisone
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-47675301
======
tmux314
Whether you are religious or not, this should sicken you. The difference
between a religious scam and a non-religious scam is that religious
organizations don't pay taxes and have close to zero accountability
financially (at least in the US). They can peddle snake oil with no
repercussions.

On top of that, there is a special kind of betrayal when a spiritual leader
abuses his follower's trust. Others may feel differently, but to me these
scams are more sinister than QVS promising 'science-proven results' or a
'Nigerian prince' email spam.

~~~
umvi
It is indeed sickening. But it's difficult to just address these abuses of the
system when people are so quick to grab their pitchforks against all religion.

I assume you were referring to my comment. To be frank, I always feel a little
threatened by these types of stories because so many people end up using it as
leverage to question the value of freedom of religion (a freedom I hold dear).

Perhaps you may have felt the same defensive instinct when a popular response
to the sickening display of racism or hate is to call into question the value
of freedom of speech.

~~~
lostmsu
I don't think it is difficult. Just require full public report on the
expenses.

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umvi
What I don't like is when people point to this as a reason why all religion is
bad. These are con artists, plain and simple.

It would be like if someone on QVC conned tons of people into buying magnets
because "science proves this will increase your energy levels" and then I used
that as a reason to write off all of science.

Target vulnerable people, get them to pay you money, profit. So many dishonest
people exploit this formula from televangelists to email spammers.

~~~
AlexTWithBeard
This is normal. Everything has its dark sides: religion, science and even
software engineering.

My personal problem is the lack of convincing arguments that religion is good.

~~~
nostalgk
Spoken as a non-religious person, religion gives a lot of people something to
rely on and a base foundation of ethics and morals from an early age. It also
opens many people to reading and philosophy, and can create a great sense of
community in healthy environments.

~~~
pnongrata
If what you are saying is true, then predominantly atheist countries (or
societies) are mainly unethical and immoral (exaggeration). Children of
atheist parents will grow to be rapists psychos (also exaggeration).

~~~
irishcoffee
Saying "A can provide X" doesn't mean "without A there cannot exist X"

~~~
pnongrata
That's maybe not what has been said here, but it's said pretty much in every
discussion I've been. They argue that religion is necessary to "give" us a
good moral compass, that without it we would be lost, etc.

~~~
nostalgk
Depends on what you consider religion, and morals, and I'd still argue it's
not necessary. There are many philosophical sects that preach morality or
reject the traditional compass that one can believe and internalize. Not all
of these are traditionally recognized religions.

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torgian
I remember when I was a teen, the church we went to had an elderly couple that
taught “Awana”, a children’s group.

A few months the after they started teaching, their daughters, upon turning
18, accused their parents of sexual abuse.

The church tried to keep it quiet and said “we cannot judge. God will judge
weather it is truth or falsehood.” And they allowed the elderly couple to
continue teaching children.

I don’t know what happened after that since I decided to stop going to church
after that.

Bullshit like this happens more often than people think.

~~~
rayiner
Our daughter’s (very liberal and secular) school recently launched an
investigation into sexual abuse of students by teachers over a period of many
years back in the 1970s. It was well known at the time, of course, people just
were discouraged from making waves or doing anything about it. Sexual abuse
was widespread back then, and it was uniformly suppressed, regardless of the
sort of community. (Frankly, it still is.)

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auiya
If you travel through rural America, it's quite telling to see all the
township money spent on churches and government buildings, while the
residences and public infrastructure sit in dilapidation. Frequently the
people from these areas claim to be fiscally conservative, so one would think
there would be more demand for the collective spending they do to be more
beneficial to the community, rather than those perpetuating the exploitation.

~~~
Spooky23
Buildings like firehouses or town offices with police departments attract
Federal/State funds for construction and upkeep. People who support their
church don't generally share your view that the church is exploiting them.

~~~
wastedhours
> People who support their church don't generally share your view that the
> church is exploiting them

True, but it also doesn't mean they're not being exploited.

I choose to believe my employer cares about me, but it doesn't mean they do,
and it's likely they might know I think that and use it to their advantage.

I hold nothing against personal faith, but I find it unsettling the balance of
wealth across organised religions - seeing the gold opulence centralised at
the (likely) expense of largely the poor across a lot of faiths is horrifying.

It might be more of a societal good for a local church to extract money from
their congregation than for it to be spent on, say, padding Amazon's pockets,
but it doesn't mean it's not taking advantage of said peoples.

Each to their own, but the notion that tithes might be linked to eternal glory
or damnation for the giver can hardly make them entirely freely given.

~~~
Spooky23
I have served on the board of a church-related institution. It doesn't push
tithing. The clergy aren't getting rich. Personally, I wouldn't associate with
a place pushing tithing, politics, or where the clergy is living an opulent
lifestyle. That's just my pov.

It's been a few years, but about 30-35% of the budget was for direct
charitable works. They partner with another church to run a soup kitchen, help
to house displaced families, and do other stuff like provide flowers to
hospice, youth sports, subsidized vacation camps, subsidy for poorer parishes,
etc. Another 30-35% was for the parish itself... salaries for the priest,
capital spending on the property. The remainder is scholarship money for the
school.

YMMV, and there are certainly good and bad places, but IMO, that parish is a
net benefit to the community around it. Some of the examples here of rural
communities the are over-churched is a symptom of the effects of decline. The
rural town I grew up in is 10% smaller than it was 25 years ago, and it is
increasingly a bedroom community for a bigger city. Folks who live there try
to keep community institutions like churches going, but obviously there comes
a point where that isn't sustainable.

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apo
These stories are hard to process because there appears to be such blatant
abuse, exploitation, and stupidity.

> A couple of years later, the Federal Communications Commission reportedly
> came close to introducing a "truth-in-advertising" clause for religious
> solicitations. This would have meant that any claims of boosting finances or
> curing disease would have to be verifiable, and Ole took various trips to
> Washington to lobby for it.

The thing that's easily forgotten is that any sufficiently-advanced con is
indistinguishable from religion.

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mlang23
In a way, I feel people that fall for such stuff deserve it. OTOH, whenever
reading stuff like that, I cant help but think that religious freedom is one
of the bigger errors of our modern society.

~~~
JustSomeNobody
Do _you_ deserve the things you fall for?

> I cant help but think that religious freedom is one of the bigger errors of
> our modern society.

So, you think people should be told what religion to follow?

~~~
username90
Religious freedom as USA practices it lets parents indoctrinate their kids. In
my eyes that is not religious freedom at all, where I come from doing that is
illegal. Some people still end up religious but most don't.

~~~
JustSomeNobody
If these people are claiming to be Christian, then they're doing it wrong and
I'd argue they're not Christian.

I can't speak for other religions.

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kazinator
Using "poor" as synonym for "stupid" seems kind of insulting to poor people
who don't happen to be stupid.

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vivekd
Problem: mega church pastors are getting rich off the mist vulnerable and
government doesnt care

This seems ripe for a tech based solution like an independent chruch rating
group like the charity ratings people to encourage transparency about how
these ministries use their funds and how well their doctrines line up with
basic christian beliefs like tge nicene creed. These TV minitries usually fail
on both counts.

The trinity group in the article seems to be doing great work but they seem to
fail in being overly reliant on legislatures

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Hasknewbie
Something that should be pointed out and that is specific to the US: the legal
status of religion there invites that type of behaviour. As John Oliver noted
in the segment mentioned, the law is extremely vague in its definition of what
a religious activity is, and gives pretty clear advantages in terms of tax
exemption. That high rewards to low obligation ratio naturally invites
parasites. If, say, NGO had a similar status instead, said parasites would
move there.

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dessant
This is the John Oliver segment the article is referencing:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y1xJAVZxXg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y1xJAVZxXg)

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ninjavis
This is NOT Christianity. This is not Jesus Christ's will.

I hate the fact that all these mega-church millionaire preachers claim to be
followers of Christ in any way, shape or form.

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MisterTea
tl;dr religion is spiritually optional. god is truly within. you are your own
church.

What people really need to acknowledge is that humans are naturally spiritual
animals. I like to theorize that we evolved spirituality as a mechanism to
cope with being lonely intelligent beings. Imagine being a feral yet
intelligent, self aware, social being with few others like yourself wandering
the land, surviving as wild animals. We knew nothing of how anything worked.
What made the lightning and thunder, what fire is, what volcanoes are,
disease, predators, earthquakes, drought, floods, etc, and the most scary of
all, death. Then throw in more layers of emotional complexity thanks to that
big complex brain. What a lonely and terrifying existence. Who do you talk to
in a time of great need? Who do you cry out to? For a near infinite number of
reasons, we can't always express our feelings to others so we created internal
people to listen to us. Those people are gods.

So remember, religion fulfills the humans natural need for spirituality.
Religious leaders are nothing more than personifications of our inner gods we
can both speak and relate to. So think of religion as a form of spiritual
food. And I can see the benefits of religion in the social sense where a
common inner voice brings people together based on common spiritual grounds.
It also introduces another very important concept which helps reinforce
diciplice and even learning: ritual. This was incredibly important in the
early days of human evolution, it's probably one of the first forms of casual
social bonding we developed. Of course there are those who seek power over
others. And what better way to socially hack groups of people via exploiting
highly vulnerable built in behaviour? This is where religion and spirituality
diverge, when it's used for control. Religion has been corrupted.

I grew up catholic but don't like religion because I don't find its dogma
spiritually nourishing. However I do pray, not to a god but to the ether or
friends and family who have passed. My church is whatever brings me inner
peace, though stereotypically I'm naming nature, the wilderness away from
society. I'm not sure on an afterlife, and I've half come to peace with
accepting that there may be nothing beyond this life. So I mix in ritual,
spirituality, philosophy and disciplines into a sort of mini religion for
myself. Life is a complex maze and having something to listen to your woes is
incredibly comforting, and that's what god(s) really are, comfort. Admittedly
I'm still hungry. But that's part of the spiritual journey: finding good
spiritual comfort food.

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JustSomeNobody
Well, this thread turned into a dumpster fire real quick.

