
Can Nashville Pull Off a $5.2B Transit Makeover? - jseliger
https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2017/11/can-nashville-pull-off-a-52-billion-transit-makeover/544301/
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Trill-I-Am
$10 billion of urban transit spending won’t fundamentally fix the problem in
Nashville because so, so many people commute in from out of the county because
of white flight. We need regional transit solutions but they won’t happen
because 1.) The suburban counties currently reap all the economic benefits
with none of the costs (transit) 2.) The wealthier suburban counties
(Williamson) don’t want people (read: anyone that isn’t rich and white) from
Davidson County coming into their county. 3.) The extremely republican
dominated state government isn’t going to spend any money on infrastructure
for the main democratic stronghold of the state.

~~~
kross
I'm rich and white living in Williamson county. I moved here when I wasn't
rich (but still white) because Franklin (seat of Williamson County) is a great
place to live.

I would welcome rail from here to Nashville, I don't get up there much
primarily due to traffic. I've lived in many places, including Manhattan and
San Francisco, and I sorely miss the convenience of the train.

Simply put, rapid transit would be great for commerce in Nashville and it
would either alleviate in some way or at least mitigate traffic congestion
that will be compounded by the rapid growth of Nashville's suburban
communities. I think costs of extensions into these communities should be
shared, but ultimately funding rapid transit through sales tax makes sense
because commerce/tax base should increase.

Anyway - just came here to give some perspective - don't get the impression
that Williamson County, Tennessee is full of racists. It is not as diverse as
Davidson County, but nonetheless a wonderful place to live.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that I'm anxious to see how autonomous cars will
affect situations like the one facing Nashville.

~~~
erikpukinskis
I have a hard time imagining the combination of self driving cars and VR not
having a DRAMATIC affect on cities. As I’ve said many times before eye contact
will be the killer app for VR. What happens to cities when you can look
someone in the eye over the internet, or place them alongside you while you
use your laptop? I don’t understand how that could be anything but
transformative for the economics of cities.

~~~
joe_the_user
_I have a hard time imagining the combination of self driving cars and VR not
having a DRAMATIC affect on cities._

Ah but what will that effect be? There's nothing about a self-driving car that
increases road capacities. And since a self-driving car doesn't get bored or
frustrated, there's less of a disincentive for a self-driving car to drive
during rush hour. So it seems like if all else remains equal, self-driving
cars are going to make traffic worse, not better (sure, if you could combine
them with ride-sharing, they might reduce things but lyft and Uber right now
could be ride-sharing but they aren't. No reason to expect a self-driving taxi
would better unless something impels it).

~~~
sliverstorm
I'm with you, many folks seem to believe self driving cars will increase
existing road capacity tenfold or something- I just don't see it. Once every
car on the road is self driving they can maybe drive "too close" at speed, but
overall there's still a limited amount of space on the pavement.

Now, if these self driving cars were high passenger capacity, that might have
a great effect- but of course then we'd just call them a bus.

~~~
skybrian
I don't think anyone really knows, but say we have cheap taxis, ride sharing,
driving "too close", and far fewer accidents? There's still a limit but it
should be quite a bit higher.

~~~
sliverstorm
Trouble is the concept of induced demand, which roads enjoy in spades

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jaxn
This seems like a puff piece that does nothing to capture the debate around
this proposal that is taking place in Nashville.

Yes, there are state-level politics involved, but there are a LOT of Nashville
residents that are strongly against this plan on the grounds that it will be
outdated and under-utilized before it is ever completed.

The Mayor's PR machine and the local Chamber are working hard to create
support for this proposal, but it will be an uphill battle and will likely
fail with the voters.

~~~
jdavis703
How can it be outdated? Do residents think self-driving cars will take over by
the time the system is ready?

~~~
jaxn
Partly. The train will take 10 years to build (assuming it is on-time).

We also feel that ride-share will continue to expand. We don't have any
pooling services (yet), but that is also inevitable.

The other big complaint is that this is one 25 mile train from one side of
town. But we aren't a coastal city like Seattle (where public transit is doing
well). We have 3 major interstates (i24, i40, and i65), so that means there
are bedroom communities in 6 directions from town. And m at least one of those
(i65 south of town) has a two-way rush hour due to so many people living in
Nashville and working in the south suburb (Brentwood / Franklin). Of course,
that is not where the train is going b/c that is the wealthiest suburb and
they don't want a train.

So, shuttling in a few people from one side of town into an urban core with a
lackluster hub/spoke bus system inside the city, isn't going to do much.

The strongest argument for Mayor Barry's proposal seems to be "We have to do
SOMETNING, so let's do this."

~~~
sliverstorm
Is there a real reason to believe that highways can provide all the transit
the city will ever need? Like, if only people would finally rideshare (which
cities have been promoting since, what, the 60's) all the traffic would be
gone?

Is there a train layout that would be much more attractive?

~~~
jaxn
My comment about the highways is that people live/work in 6 directions (due to
traditional access via interstates). A train on one of them won't do much,
especially since it isn't even the busiest direction.

~~~
JoBrad
The 10-year proposal includes light rail in several directions. Not sure why
you think it’s only 1?

[http://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2017/10/26/nashville-
un...](http://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2017/10/26/nashville-underground-
tunnel-why-mayor-megan-barry-transit-team-says-tunnel-wouldnt-too-big-
dig/795533001/)

~~~
jaxn
Not really. It comes to downtown from the north, and then goes west, but stops
at I440. So that has zero benefit to the people who commute from the west on
I40.

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nodesocket
I'm moving from San Francisco to Nashville in December for a plethora of
reasons, but I can tell you that Nashville is growing and expanding like
crazy. I believe it is in the top 10 fastest growing US cities and it is VERY
business friendly (no state income tax) and has favorable small business
conditions. While Nashville is certainly a music city, the business
environment continues to improve. Even with a 1% increase in sale tax to
support Let’s Move Nashville, I think this has a great chance of passing. I'm
very bullish on the Nashville economy :-).

~~~
Xcelerate
> I'm moving from San Francisco to Nashville

As a Tennessean who wouldn’t mind moving to San Francisco, I’m curious if you
can share any of your reasons? I haven’t noticed many tech benefits in
Tennessee over SF beyond lower cost of living.

~~~
nodesocket
Well, if I share my opinions of why I want to move out of downtown SF I'm sure
I will just get downvoted here on HN, so instead I'm just looking for a
change. Ready to settle and slow life down. I absolutely love music (played
drums and piano) and really enjoy the amazing live music scene in Nashville. I
also found that people are super friendly, charming, and ultra polite in
Nashville.

~~~
paul7986
What You don’t like the blight of the homeless smacking you in the face in San
Fran? I guess it’s in Nashville (I never saw it while living there for 3 years
from Baltimore) too but it’s not a lifestyle there or a city other cities dump
their homeless problem on.

I loved San Fran on my first visit then I stayed at a hotel on Market st and
visited Haight Ashbury..omg!

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patrickg_zill
Aside from the dense and compact NYC subway, is there any transit system in
the USA that people would say is a great example to follow?

~~~
toomuchtodo
Chicago’s rail system (“The L” elevated line + Metra hub and spoke to the
suburbs) as well as the CTA bus system are very good.

My suggestions to improve would be better funding for light rail, dedicated
lanes for buses that other vehicles can’t enter, priority access at
intersections, and a congestion charge to enter the core (“The Loop”).

EDIT: Dropped "light" from "light rail system".

~~~
thesmallestcat
Minor quibble but Chicago's elevated and commuter rail systems are all heavy
rail, not light rail.

~~~
brianwawok
Whats the difference? Heavy is the same stuff as freight trains, and light is
smaller?

~~~
kasey_junk
It’s not a rigorously defined phrase but yes basically.

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gok
$5.2 billion for around 25 miles of light rail? Honestly by American standards
that’s pretty affordable. Denver spent a similar amount for much more rail but
in the process got a commuter rail line where the grade crossings don’t work.

~~~
dionidium
It really depends. St. Louis has built light rail along existing rail ROWs in
rural areas, inside existing Downtown tunnels, and through new urban tunnels
built specifically for light rail.

The costs vary wildly along each of those segments.

$5 billion to build new tunnels? That's a bargain. Along rural ROWs? That's a
boondoggle.

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aurizon
Make it fully automated, self driving, on controlled trackways with entry and
exit on the opposite sides of cars.

Why? They do it with elevators don't they? I recall when all elevators had
operators - yes a person in the car to push the floor button.

This evolved from old systems with a hand operated cable line with a window
the operator put his hand into to pull up/down and to level the car. This led
to elevator operator unions, and strikes - which led to fully automated push
button elevators when the unions got whiney and greedy. Operators were getting
$50,000+ for riding and pushing buttons. .

So the were all left out in the cold and courts supported automated elevators.

Then there were the movie projector operators, relics of the carbon arc in the
old days. Now fully automated digital projection rules this work place,

~~~
lfam
I do deliveries to some buildings that still have freight elevator operators,
in a USA city.

I don't know what they are paid, but it is worth every penny for them to
manage the elevators. There is not enough "supply" of freight elevator in most
tall buildings, so these operators distribute the capacity to the dozens /
hundreds of people needing to use the elevator each day.

$50k per year is a bargain for all the time they save for the thousands of
deliveries and other uses each year.

If you have experience in this area, then I should not say this: it's easy to
criticize some work as useless when one is totally ignorant of the problem
space. But buildings don't hire these operators as a charity.

~~~
aurizon
Yes, I agree, freight management differs greatly from people walking in and
pushing buttons for their floor.

We now have a new system where you go in and push what floor on an external
pad and the system tells you what car to go to.

