
Ask HN: Freelancer Rates in the US - dirtnugget
Hello,<p>I have often been somewhat confused when it comes to hourly rates for freelancers in IT.
While it is pretty normal to charge more than 60€&#x2F;h here in Europe I’m always shocked to come across postings like these from the US:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;soshace.com&#x2F;jobs&#x2F;python-back-end-web-developer-remote-soshace-16-09-2019" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;soshace.com&#x2F;jobs&#x2F;python-back-end-web-developer-remot...</a><p>This is a remote python job for an intermediate or senior developer that pays 20-30$&#x2F;h. And not the first one of that kind I came across.<p>That would mean a freelancer makes less than half the money as compared to a 9-5.<p>Is this normal?
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PragmaticPulp
You will not find a standard range of freelancer rates, just as you won't find
a standard range of developer salaries in the United States.

The $20-30/hr job listing you shared will not attract any experienced Python
developers. Experienced Python developers can easily secure jobs with
$100K+/year salaries and benefits in any medium sized city. That job listing
is searching for entry-level Python engineers who don't yet understand their
value in the marketplace. It is not representative of standard freelance
rates. The job listing requests a good command of the English language, so
it's not even clear that they're targeting only Americans with the listing.

Generally speaking, the best paid freelancers do not find jobs via public job
listings. They use their reputation and network in combination with their
unique skillsets to find contract jobs with companies who need them.

The best freelancers also negotiate their rates for each contract. Their rate
can vary significantly depending on how many other opportunities that have,
the difficulty of the work, and other factors.

Personally, I don't know any full-time freelancers who charge less than
$80-90/hr. Below this hourly amount, it becomes more financially beneficial to
find a full-time job.

Unfortunately, it's difficult to find accurate information about freelance
rates from the public internet. Smart companies will not post a high hourly
rate on job listings because they could miss opportunities for candidates to
negotiate lower rates. Smart freelancers will not advertise their typical rate
because it will impact their opportunity to negotiate or change their rates in
private conversations with new employers.

The optimal strategy is to constantly look for new contract jobs, raising your
asking rate until companies are telling you "No" more than "Yes". This is how
you will find your market rate.

~~~
mcv
But that also means that these advertisements won't find any good developers.
These super-low rates are clearly trying to scrape the bottom of the barrel.

The best bet is that these ads are aiming at developers from poorer countries
where rates are much lower.

~~~
dirtnugget
I’m happy with the point that this listing might cater to people in Eastern
Europe/Asia/Africa

~~~
mcv
On the one hand, yes, but on the other, if it's remote anyway, developers in
Eastern Europe/Asia/Africa should also be able to earn Western
European/American rates.

------
gt2
Like anything else you can find all ranges offered and all ranges accepted. I
thought the exact opposite was the norm, with higher rates in US companies
than UK/europe.

Senior level rates in US range from 100-300/hr. I know it's a big range, but
it comes down to speed, creativity, references, portfolio, fit for the
project, availability.

As far as the half the money as a 9-5, it's actually the other way around-- as
a freelancer, you need more money to compensate for things like insurance,
taxes, risk that come with being an independent/freelancer. So they say to
match a 75k salary, you need approximately 150/hr.

~~~
AzzieElbab
150/hr sums up to 200k/year if you work 30 hours a week for 11 months. \-----
Fixed typo

~~~
davidmurdoch
Assuming you meant 150/hr...

Freelancers have costs that W2 employees do not, like self employment taxes
and the full cost of health insurance.

~~~
vitaflo
They also have benefits that W2 employees do not, like deducting expenses,
$50k+ in allowable retirement contributions per year, and the 20% QBI
deduction.

~~~
fullStackOasis
You are certainly correct, and those are nice to have.

It pays to keep in mind that in order to deduct an expense, you have to pay
the expense. So as a freelancer, when I pay for my computer, that's $1500 out
of pocket. Then I don't pay quite so much in taxes. But I've still got $1500
less at the end of the year than if I worked at a business and they were
paying for my computer.

$50K+ into your retirement is also great, but it's most useful for those who
are making so much money that they can __afford __to put that money away and
not touch it until they 're 62. Some people can certainly do that, but I doubt
that it's very common. Even FTE often don't max out their 401K. Here's a fool
article that claims the average is rate is 7%:
[https://www.fool.com/retirement/2017/01/15/average-
americans...](https://www.fool.com/retirement/2017/01/15/average-
americans-401k-contributions-by-age-and-in.aspx)

~~~
vitaflo
You would also then have a $1500 asset that you could sell at a later date.
When you're an employee you don't have that option.

If you aren't able to max out your retirement account it means your QBI
deduction is larger.

As with most things business/tax related, there's a lot of grey area and
nuance here.

~~~
blaser-waffle
> You would also then have a $1500 asset that you could sell at a later date.
> When you're an employee you don't have that option.

Maybe if you turned around and resold the system immediately. But I'm not
gonna pay 1500 bucks for your 4 year old 133t machine that you spilled coffee
and sneezed on.

~~~
vitaflo
Of course. That’s why depreciation and MACRS exists. The point is it’s not a
$1500 sunk cost. You get a multi year deduction and an asset in return. How
you handle that asset is up to you.

------
ibudiallo
When I started freelancing, I did extremely cheap jobs because I didn't have
experience and didn't know better. I did what you are currently doing, I went
online to find answers. And the answer is, there are no fixed rate. The rate
you are seeing, is perfectly reasonable for someone who charges this rate.

At some point, my fee was $40 an hour. I freelanced through a 3rd party who
found gigs for me, and took their cuts. One day, I found out that they charged
these companies $100 in some cases, while I was still only getting $40.

If that's how much I was worth, then it would be perfectly reasonable for me
to charge just as much.

If you want more details, here is the full story:
[https://idiallo.com/blog/how-much-do-you-charge-for-your-
wor...](https://idiallo.com/blog/how-much-do-you-charge-for-your-work)

~~~
yonig
Such a good post of a great lesson learned. I see a lot on how zoning in how
much to charge, a lot on how to get customers but do you have similar posts
about the other stuff on the biz end of things that fill the gaps? Creating
proper contracts are daunting

~~~
ibudiallo
Glad you enjoy it. The business end of things was a messy beginning for me. My
contracts started as googling a template the night before and sending it with
as many typos as mistakes you can imagine. It improved over the years.

I haven't written about it yet, but I'll add it to my list for this year.

------
fullStackOasis
Like someone else said, the agency is Russian. From their "about" page:
[https://soshace.com/aboutus](https://soshace.com/aboutus)

197183, Russia, Saint-Petersburg, Polevaya Sabirovskaya street, 54А, office
335

~~~
dirtnugget
Oh wow that evaded me.

------
sourc3
Expected? Yes. Normal? Yes. Only thing there is out there? No.

For every $30/hr posting on the net, there is another one for $100. I also
personally know of folks who are making +$150 with Django. It really depends
on who you work for.

Although you will see a lot more of `build Uber for $5K` type of one off jobs,
there are some reputable companies who need more capacity on new projects.

If I were you I would cast a wider net and sample the market more.

~~~
Ididntdothis
Who pays >150? I always hear about this but neither as freelancer or as
employee who hires freelancers I have ever seen somebody making that much as
freelancer. Sometimes consulting companies charge that much but the
freelancers probably get paid only a fraction of that.

~~~
fmxexpress
Real estate, finance, oil & gas, software development clients. I charge
$160/h. 20+ years of experience.

~~~
antjanus
I have a buddy who charges $200/h for JavaScript work in Oil & Gas. He works
on-site, wears a suit, and makes bank in a cheap city. Never has issues
getting work.

------
throw_away_584
fwiw my current billing rate is $300/hr. Full stack. Mostly web. 18+ years of
experience. San Francisco. Clients all over the Bay Area.

~~~
throwaway49494
Got any spill-over you'd like to get rid of? Experienced freelancer/consultant
here, no hand-holding necessary.

~~~
throw_away_584
Sorry, no.

------
seanwilson
> That would mean a freelancer makes less than half the money as compared to a
> 9-5

I think as a general rule, if you're freelancing full-time and making the same
as you would in a salaried job or even a little more, you're not charging
nearly enough.

When you freelance, you don't get paid sick days or paid holidays, and there's
considerable risk you might not have any billed hours of work for weeks at a
time. This at a minimum is why you need to be charging more per hour than
you'd make per hour at a salaried job.

------
yayana
No, that is a Russian site that uses English/USD (maybe for easier
international remote job seekers.)

~~~
dirtnugget
Yeah thanks for pointing that out. However I’m sure I’ve seen the same thing
from US companies

------
blocked_again
Since the project is long term, 20$ - 30$ per hour comes to around $41k - $61k
per year. This is a pretty good amount in the vast majority of the countries.
The target audience is obviously not developers living in Silicon Valley.
Probably looking for developers from Eastern Europe, Asia, Africa or South
America. Also, there are a lot of countries that offer tax benefits when you
are working as a freelancer.

~~~
dirtnugget
That’s 40-60k before taxes. I realize that taxes I’m the IS are much lower,
but do you have any idea on a rough percentage?

~~~
lotsofpulp
In my experience, taxes in US are not lower if you include health insurance
premiums and out of pocket healthcare costs.

The US is great if you’re in top 10% of incomes, but if you can’t afford to
take advantage of the money tax exemptions and credits, then it’s not any
better for the middle 30% to 70% of income earners who don’t make enough for
government assistance, but also don’t make enough to take advantage of the tax
code.

------
jfmandroid
Freelance rates vary a LOT depending of your location.

A rate of 20-30$/h is pretty standard for developers "outside" the US.

For developers "in" the US, I think you shouldn't accept less than 50$/h.
Regarding how much you could ask, I think that depends (besides your
experience) of the city in which the client is.

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nunez
While there aren't published market rates, you can get an idea of what people
are charging by computing per-hour compensation from salary data found in
sites like LinkedIn or Glassdoor and adding a 20-40% premium on top (to
account for additional expenses such as insurance and taxes).

------
throwaway7281
I'm working remotely in the US and charge $55/h for development and
consulting.

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ravenstine
I freelanced a few times for short periods and charged $90 an hour for front-
end web development. At the time I was living in Santa Monica, CA, and the
business was located within 20 miles.

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literallycancer
If you are doing it right, you are charging so much that you don't care
whether you bill 50 days a year or a 100.

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dep_b
That rate would be considered a reasonable rate in Latin American countries.

