
An Average Guy Who Spent 6,000 Hours Trying to Be a Professional Golfer - tangue
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/08/the-dan-plan/536592/?single_page=true
======
nemo44x
Going pro shouldn't be the mark of success on this endeavor. There are a very
limited number of seats and very likely pros have committed well more time.

The fact he got to a 2 handicap is evidence you can become a master.
Especially since he suffered a physical limitation after about 6k hours.

Talent matters. Age matters. The ability to "get it" faster matters. Access
makes you get it faster.

But to go from no game to a 2 handicap is proof extremely hard work pays off.
To be in the top 5% of anything makes you elite even if it doesn't make you a
pro in an extremely selective occupation. A top-5% engineer can work anywhere
and make top money.

~~~
danso
Folks who decide to do a 10,000-hour challenge are probably already in some
kind of elite group, in terms of wealth and free time (nevermind patience and
perseverance). The average person isn't able to spend ~7 hours a day, every
day for 4 years, on a non-salaried activity.

~~~
icelancer
>The average person isn't able to spend ~7 hours a day, every day for 4 years,
on a non-salaried activity.

I basically did this over 6 years, 3-5 hours per day on a non-earning activity
to eventually launch the business I now run. In the last 3 years I've averaged
60-70 hours per week at work, only recently earning close to my last salary
(about 65% as of last check) as a Data Scientist.

It's doable enough. Just very hard. Can only really be done if it's your
life's calling, which this was and I correctly identified it as such in year
2.

~~~
icelancer
Also the "10,000" hour rule (which has obviously been debunked) isn't _really_
about 10,000 hours of focused practice on the task alone. Focused work and
previous experience in other domains transfers into the activity/goal you
chase.

Being a Data Scientist gave me a huge leg up about understanding data
structures and statistical analysis, huge in my field.

Formerly a software developer, I was able to install, configure, and hack
together a workable WooCommerce/WordPress PHP/MySQL CMS that generated content
and still is our main shop, selling millions of dollars of merchandise per
year.

I used to work retail and retail management when I was young and putting
myself through high school and college. Lessons about stocking, shipping,
marketing, sales, logistics - all transferred into my online retail business.

None transfer perfectly, but all make an impact. True, I knew nothing about
"sports science" at the outset. But I had a big leg up from my limited college
education and my extensive work history. That cut the "10,000" hours down
significantly.

~~~
davidreiss
But 10000 hour rule isn't about being competent. It's about being an expert.

> Formerly a software developer, I was able to install, configure, and hack
> together a workable WooCommerce/WordPress PHP/MySQL CMS that generated
> content and still is our main shop, selling millions of dollars of
> merchandise per year.

But anyone could really do that just following simple online guides/examples.
CMS is child's play especially when you didn't even build one from scratch but
just pieced ready made software together.

> I used to work retail and retail management when I was young and putting
> myself through high school and college. Lessons about stocking, shipping,
> marketing, sales, logistics - all transferred into my online retail
> business.

Sure, but you aren't an expert in any of those.

Of course cross domain knowledge helps but I think you are missing the point
of the 10000 hour rule. It was a rule to make you an expert, not a jack of all
trades.

~~~
efferifick
I think you are missing the point of the parent post.

He is not stating that the 10,000 rule will make you a jack of all trades. He
is saying that he was able to cut down the "10,000" hours to less because of
his transferable skills. S/he might not be an expert in these transferable
skills, but s/he might be an expert in his business which is sports science.

~~~
davidreiss
> He is not stating that the 10,000 rule will make you a jack of all trades.

But that's not what he described.

> S/he might not be an expert in these transferable skills, but s/he might be
> an expert in his business which is sports science.

Sure. We all have transferable skills. I don't think the 10000 hour rule meant
that you start off with a blank slate and went from the basics of learning
language, mathematics, etc.

The 10000 rule is part learning and part practice/muscle memory/etc.

In other words, it "includes" transferable knowledge.

If you know latin, you'll have an easier time getting competent in italian.
But to become an expert in italian, you still need to go through the 10000
hours. That's the idea of 10000 hours. I don't believe in the 10000 hours
mantra, but that's my understanding of it.

~~~
icelancer
I am an expert in my field now. It is indisputable. It took me less than
10,000 hours _because_ of the other work I did.

You are indeed missing the point.

------
ChuckMcM
I remember when I found out that Gladwell was a journalist not a scientist. In
science, cherry picking your data is malfeasance, and in journalism it is just
good story telling. Which made me sad because I'd like to believe that you
could 'practice your way' into some amazing profession.

I also followed Dan's progress for the first couple of years. Here was a guy
who was putting things to the test in a way that had not been done before. I
expect if he writes a book on the topic I would not be the only one who bought
it.

So it is with some surprise that I read that Dan didn't know how to 'end it'.
He did an amazing thing, and the results weren't what he expected or hoped but
they were _authentic_ and that is important. I don't think anyone who followed
his story would say "oh he just slacked off for years" or any of that. I would
hope he could sit back and evaluate it not as someone who 'failed to make the
PGA' but rather as someone who tested this hypothesis of 10K hours and found
it wanting. That is an excellent achievement and I hope he can see it that
way.

------
ryanwaggoner
I actually randomly looked this guy up months ago after thinking about him and
wondering whatever became of his experiment. Sad to see how it ended.

Side note: the Atlantic's shit-tastic anti-ad blocker wouldn't let me in even
though I'm a paying subscriber, AND I whitelisted them, so here's the AMP
link:
[https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article...](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/536592/)

~~~
1337biz
Funny, I did the same a few weeks ago. The idea is still fascinating.

------
SeanDav
Absolutely true story: A friend of mine could make a golf ball do just about
anything and was a wonder to watch. He was a scratch player or better (I don't
recall his exact handicap). On paper, he was professional standard. He could
sink 10 foot putts all day long (my hyperbole), but what he could not do was
sink a 10-foot putt, _when it counted_. By his own admission, he just did not
have the match temperament to perform when the pressure was really on.

Golf at professional level is not just about skill, but also mental
preparedness, fitness and probably a lot of other factors.

~~~
majani
While this is true, I think golf etiquette makes it easier to handle the
mental side. No screaming fans and flashing lights to deal with during the
game like in other sports.

~~~
pja
That helps with the external distractions, but it doesn't help with the
pressure you put on yourself - the internal mental pressure.

There's a reason everyone recommends "The Inner Game of Tennis" in this
context.

~~~
notahacker
Also, depending on how you handle pressure, a period of absolute silence when
people concentrate on seeing whether you fail or not can be a lot more nerve-
wracking than a colourful crowd of people relentlessly booing your team.

------
mattm
"The Sports Gene" [1] is an excellent book on this topic backed up by not only
research but entertaining stories as well. It has a section about Dan but also
has stories about a world champion high jumper who dedicated his life to high
jumping only to be surpassed by someone who wasn't really interested in it and
had been practicing for less than a year.

I think the lesson to take away from Dan's experience and what the author of
this book argues as well is that yes, practice can make you a lot better. But
to be among the best in the world, you'll need to have some sort of genetic
advantage.

[1] [https://www.amazon.ca/Sports-Gene-Extraordinary-Athletic-
Per...](https://www.amazon.ca/Sports-Gene-Extraordinary-Athletic-
Performance/dp/1591845114)

------
icelancer
I highly recommend people reading a similar story by Lyle McDonald, called No
Regrets [0]. He drops everything to become a world-champion short-track speed
skater, which is miles and miles less competitive than professional golf.

[0]: [http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/no-regrets-
part-1....](http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/no-regrets-part-1.html/)

------
maxxxxx
I sort of did a similar experiment from 15-35 with boxing. Trained a lot and
became pretty competent. But to get to the top hard work is not enough. You
also need talent. There are people in the gym that had speed and strength
without any training that I couldn't reach with daily hard training.

But I think doing this was probably still the best thing I did in my life.
Doing something that seems out of reach and then becoming competent is great.
Even without having success in the sense of winning.

~~~
plinkplonk
I'm on the verge of attempting something like this in Tai Chi. I'm pretty sure
I have only moderate (if any) talent, and age is against me as well, but I
plan to give this an all out try.

Great comment. Directly spoke to me. Thanks for taking the time to post it.

~~~
gbuk2013
I hope you do :) I hope you also get to practice the real deal, with the real
Chi (and the Chuan) ;)

~~~
plinkplonk
ha! I know exactly what you speak of (chi/chuan)

I practice a 'non fluff' variant, emphasizing lots of 'real world testing'
against uncooperative opponents ;-)

------
sumoboy
Would have been a different story and probably had a better chance if would
have started at 20. You'll find kids in high school and younger that have 2
handicaps, alot of physical abilities but less mental aspects for the game.

Steph Curry (basketball star) carries a 2 handicap so just having athletic
talent can really make a difference, give him <2000 hours of practice and I'd
bet he could play on the web.com tour.

------
candiodari
I wonder how much the back problem mattered here. Because you see the same, in
fighting sports. Every 3 years or so someone comes and starts intense
practice, thinking they can just do this. And you can ...

But not if you practice hard enough to dislocate your knee in (the current
record is) 2 months. Unless you're a kid, you need regular, long (as in a week
minimum) breaks in practice. Every few months.

~~~
cJ0th
> Unless you're a kid, you need regular, long (as in a week minimum) breaks in
> practice. Every few months.

Moreover, I wonder if he'd become "automatically" better after a downtime of
say 2 months. I could imagine his brain still has a lot of processing to do
from this extreme time.

------
JaggerFoo
After spending some time machine learning golf for daily fantasy wagering, I
came to the conclusion that I will never take up the sport. As a social
activity it has its positives, but on the sporting side consistency and
improvement are hard to come by.

* Professionals miss the cut n times in a row, then win next tournament.

* The ridiculous "tips" videos with all the machinations and methods they put forth to help you with your game - I'd rather play Twister.

* Equipment - costs and technology changes. Drivers are getting closer to looking like a sawed-off bowling ball attached to a shaft.

However, I do enjoy watching the pros play and Spieth's 13th hole in the
British Open and follow up was a memorable event.

The PGA has to be commended for making public a great amount of super-detailed
data for use in analysis. I wish the bigger sports did this.

The book "Every Shot Counts" by Mark Broadie may help guide you to improve
your game, if you are interested in a data analysis approach.

Cheers

~~~
nickswan
How did you get on with the machine learning part of it?

------
aug101
"There is golf, and then there is tournament golf." \- Bobby Jones. Dan picked
one of the most ridiculously hard endeavors to 'master' and never even had a
cup of coffee at a mini-tour event, let alone advancing in any of his state
qualifiers or local invitationals. Even the pros who have their tour card but
are not in the field for the next tournament sometimes play in a 1-round
Monday qualifier, and they have to shoot in the mid to low 60s to top a field
of 125-185 players to grab an open slot. Even then they likely will miss the
cut at the event, as most tour players do week in week out - except the true
superstars. A 2-handicap shows you can manage your way around a course, but
it's miles away from tour-level. Tour players are in the +5 to +8 range at
their home clubs, and those are all championship tracks they play from the
tips - just for practice.

------
danielfoster
I haven't read Gladwell's book, but I would imagine that time spent practicing
is only one of several multipliers. Natural talent and the right coaching at
the right time would be too others.

~~~
ajross
Outliers is a fun read, and short. Just as with all Gladwell it's long on idea
consistency and short on numerical rigor.

But this is sort of a misinterpretation anyway. The point isn't that 10k hours
is enough to make you a master in isolation, it's that masters don't get to be
masters before 10k. At the top end of elite practitioners of any art, talent
still matters.

~~~
bitexploder
And the studies he (Glad we'll) references are an average of 10000. Average.
Sucks to be you if you are the 20k hours person.

[http://www.businessinsider.com/sports-gene-author-
gladwell-1...](http://www.businessinsider.com/sports-gene-author-
gladwell-10000-hour-rule-2013-8)

I read this book. It is well written and better researched than outliers by
far.

------
danso
Since Malcolm Gladwell's book about 10,000 hours of practice, there must be
dozens of stories that of people trying to reach that milestone in various
pursuits (music, programming, arts). Would love to read a series of those (or
maybe that's Gladwell's next book deal).

------
throwaway2016a
I started learning golf a few years ago and to me it definitely seems like
something most people can master with practice. Especially if you are good at
putting your mind in the right place. It's really easy to become too stressed
in golf or too careless or get too focused and overthink the shot. It is most
mindful than any sport I've played. [1]

With that said, I think there are two hard requirements for golf:

\- Time

\- Money

The first one comes with the second as someone who has f* you money can make a
lot of time. I know someone who "retired" at 40 for two years to exclusively
practice golf. He eventually went back to work, not because he had to but
because he was bored (serial entrepreneurs have to start companies... it's an
addiction)

I unfortunately am in the middle. I have been able to spend hundreds of
dollars on the sport not thousands like some people I know. I have a hitting
net at home I can go in my yard so I don't need to go to the driving range and
that helps (a few hundred dollars well spent) but if I went to the course
every weekend I'd be broke in no time. And I most certainly can't go on "Golf
Vacations" half way around the country (though if I happen to be on vacation
near a course I will go).

[1] I found my shot improves ridiculously if I step back, breath, and stop
thinking so hard about it. I've spent a long time thinking about shots only to
slice it then gone up to the tee and swung without giving it a second thought
and hit a perfect shot... repeatedly.

------
netgusto
It's the "Talent bound" vs "Effort bound" mindset.

I side with "Effort bound" as a life motto. To challenge myself, if not for
correctness relatively to the reality.

~~~
roceasta
Effort in any field has the property that if you are bloody-minded enough it
can bring you up to the wall beyond which talent lies. I hit this wall as a
result of over-practicing piano aged 28 which I had to give up due to
repetitive strain injury. The good news is that a few years later, in a
separate development, the wall suddenly and completely dissolved. I can't
describe the experience without sounding mystical. Still less can I explain
it. The closest psychological concept I've found is _Low Latent Inhibition_
and my guess is that this phenomenon lies behind _all_ talent.

------
tigerBL00D
We should be careful drwaing conclusions about the value of practice here.

The main problem with this endeavor is the definition of success. The outcome
is strictly binary. That is either he makes a pro tour or not. Apart from
publicity, there is not a whole lot that can be redeemed if Dan gets, say,
only 90% there.

There are numerous ways one can challenge himself or herself and benefit
enormously along the way to the top 6% in the respective field. For example,
if it were finance, then he would have been very wealthy. If it were
triathlon, then he'd be in great physical health. Etc.

In real life going for it is not the only thing that leads to success. It's
also choosing wisely what you do.

------
mmel
>“We [talked] about the idea of quitting everything to pursue something
single-mindedly and whole-heartedly,” McLaughlin recounts. “Did you need
talent or was it all about hard work?”

Why not apply that mindset to commercial photography, the field he was already
in?

~~~
allcentury
The article said he felt indifferent about his previous and current careers.

------
scott00
If you like this story you may also be interested in the book "Paper Tiger" by
Tom Coyne. Same idea of total dedication to making the PGA, but starting as a
guy who played competitively in his youth, but had gotten rusty. He was
shooting in the 80s, and decided to dedicate a year to it. Entertaining read I
thought.

------
muzani
10,000 hours is taken from the book Outliers, but it's not even true mastery.
It's said to be the level where Bill Gates entered Harvard. 10,000 hours is
more journeyman level than mastery.

The book Mastery goes into much more detail, where it repeats that 10,000
hours is necessary, but there are other components to mastery. Among them is
mentorship and creating some form of masterwork.

The pro athletes have gone far past the 10,000 hours mark, but chances are
they also had mentors and they've also taken some risks and invented their own
styles. Keep practicing.

~~~
jwdunne
I think there is a misconception with that number. It originally comes from a
paper on deliberate practice from Anders Ericsson.

You could spend 10,000 hours playing golf but it's highly unlikely you have
spent 10,000 hours in deliberate practice.

Deliberate practice is the relentless drill on areas you need to improve that
sit outside your comfort zone. A game of golf, like anything, will include a
variety of skills, some comfortable, some not so.

I can't speak for the validity of the research but it's not as simple as doing
something for 10,000 hours. The idea is to breakdown everything that you need
to do in a golf game, analyse objectively where you stand on each and
relentlessly nail the weakest areas.

It's not fun, it's hard and I guess the key thing with talent is that it makes
all of that a little bit easier plus a burning passion for the bigger picture
(I wonder if that's the source of talent - a burning passion and some other
innate advantages)?

------
callesgg
He is not an average guy if he decides to do such a thing.

------
erikb
Pure marketing and zero professionalism it seems. A real person attempting pro
will have real trainers. They will help him make plans that don't overstress
his body in a way that kills his back in 5 years. Then you set goals that are
hard but reachable, not outright impossible. Of course some "impossible" goals
can be reached, but not without first achieving some goals from the "possible"
category.

~~~
pakitan
What it seems is that you have read neither Dan's blog nor the article you're
commenting on. He did hire real trainers.

~~~
erikb
Correction: He did pay people to train him. That's different from hiring real
trainers. See the word "real" in "real trainers"? It's part of their job to
protect your key body parts during training.

~~~
valuearb
"real trainers" is a marketing concept, and their knowledge is far from
scientifically valid.

~~~
erikb
Yeah there are like 100 who will claim that title and 2 who really earn it.
You need to be a fanatic yourself (about anything, not necessarily the same
topic) to understand who is a fanatic in his claimed area as well.

------
Pulcinella
I feel like there is some confusion between being successful and being
professional. You could deliberately practice a sport or music for ~10,000 and
be really damn good, but that doesn't mean you will go pro. That part is about
luck and connections. Just because you are very skilled doesn't necessarily
mean you will be "spotted" or "discovered" for example.

~~~
denimnerd
golf has open tournaments. no need to be spotted

it's literally just up to your ability and nothing else

~~~
yakult
You need access to expertise, equipment, grounds, peer competition. These all
require money and/or connections.

~~~
SamReidHughes
Golf is cheap. You could spend $1000 on equipment, get a yearly pass for $2300
right outside Google HQ. Spend $50 or is it $100 to join the men's club --
they'd love for you to join -- and get your NCGA handicap. Done.

Read the greatest kung fu manual ever written, "Five Lessons" by Ben Hogan, or
use some other book. I met one kid that modeled his swing off of YouTube
videos and with that got himself to a scratch handicap.

The real cost is time.

~~~
PhasmaFelis
> _Golf is cheap. You could spend $1000 on equipment, get a yearly pass for
> $2300 right outside Google HQ._

$3300 is not in any way "cheap" for the majority of Americans.

I like HN, but it's disheartening how many of my peers in tech seem to think
that a West Coast programmer's salary is normal.

~~~
SamReidHughes
It's cheaper than smoking. Edit: Well, depends on the accounting. The median
U.S. income is $51K so by all means it's affordable. The main cost is time.

~~~
randomdata
Median household income is $50k. Median individual income is $30k, leaving the
aforementioned year of golf taking about 10% of ones (median) income. That is
a fairly large expense.

~~~
SamReidHughes
If you're trying to go pro, 10% of income is nothing compared to the time
investment. Like, it's an amount. But plenty of people get by on $27K.

~~~
randomdata
That's pre-tax income though. There will be some variation by location and
situation, but if we say post-tax is $24k that does not even leave $21k.

That is not a lot to live on. And, since we're talking about the median, 50%
of the earning population are going to be left with even less than that.

~~~
SamReidHughes
Even then you're talking a cost for something you'd be devoting most of your
free time to doing. You don't have to do it in California.

------
brightball
There's an episode of My Name is Earl based on this premise.

------
rmorey
Should've gotten a Meeseeks

------
brycen31
People seem to have a maximum skill level that they can attain, and hard
training keeps them at that level, but can't get them any higher. If they quit
hard training their skills drop quickly.

Children's sports is a process where you have a bunch of kids play and the
coach looks to see which kids have an affinity for the sport. It is
essentially a weed-out process that eliminates most kids.

------
murray_jody
Natural Talent + Dedication = a chance to be great at something.

I was an over achieving 6'2" power forward in junior college. Led the team in
rebounding and blocked shots, but was always matched against guys 6'5" and
taller, and 20 or more pounds of muscle heavier.

So I don't care how much practice I did under what regime, I had already found
my limits. 6'-2".

------
kali46
Neat article, I wonder how much of that concept really belonging in the
athletic arena, however. Also, Gretzky is spelled with a Z

------
elwin43
Kudos to him throwing caution to the wind and trying it. That took guts

