
'You're Not Allowed to Film': The Fight to Control Who Reports from Portland - Bostonian
https://reason.com/2020/09/04/youre-not-allowed-to-film-the-fight-for-control-over-who-reports-from-portland/
======
zaroth
The mainstream news reporting on Portland (and other regional rioting) got to
the point where they were bald-faced lying about peaceful protests standing in
front of burning buildings.

The most charitable interpretation I can think of is that these professional
journalists think that their readers can’t understand a nuanced world of gray
and need everything reduced to black and white. There can be a concept of
“BLM” that is obviously right and important to support, while there is also a
well organized radical contingent taking cover within BLM that is wreaking
havoc on the streets and will bully or beat up anyone who stands up to them
(police or bystander alike). That they call themselves anti-fascists while
taking a truly fascist approach to spreading their ideology is a rhetorical
pattern I’m seeing a lot lately; accusing your opponent of exactly what you
are doing.

Portland just “celebrated” their 100th day of rioting. There was video from
last night where they set a fellow rioter on fire while trying to throw
Molotov cocktails at police.

The PR / social media contingent that supports the riots is frankly
impressive. The article mentions Google sheets listing approved journalists
and ways to help fund them. The level of organization belies a depth to the
organization that I think most people assume is more organic and rag-tag than
it really is.

~~~
formercoder
I’ve found that most people I speak to can’t accept that most issues are
complex shades of gray. It’s all our team or their team based on whatever news
channel they subscribe to. No one takes time to dig below the surface and
think for themselves.

~~~
threatofrain
If someone suggests that they think in morally gray manner, doesn't it signal
to everyone around them that they're morally suspicious?

>"Do you think it's alright that police are getting killed?"

> "Well, let's think about the details, as the situation can be complex or
> even gray..."

You might say this is a stupid and sparse example, but well, let's think about
it... for many people instinctual morality is their primary way of relating to
the world. If you suggest you have an intellectual and distinctive approach to
morality, what does that mean? Does that moral distinction mean moral
superiority, arrogance, or moral alienation?

~~~
formercoder
I’m talking more about making moral judgements without adequate information or
analysis. I’m not saying that morality is not absolute.

------
themgt
This isn't just limited to Portland but is becoming a general aspect of these
protests now, e.g. here[1] was DC last night where a Washington Post reporter
was hounded out of the protest and then followed by "minders" to prevent his
return.

 _Protesters are now blocking media from filming their demonstration, shining
lights into a reporter’s face, blocking shots with fans umbrellas and
following like “minders” ... “We have our press we know and trust,” this young
woman says_

[1]
[https://twitter.com/KunkleFredrick/status/130241105817530777...](https://twitter.com/KunkleFredrick/status/1302411058175307777)

~~~
phkahler
Maybe the press needs drones.

~~~
chippy
Some of them do (and are registered with the FAA to fly them). However there
are a number of no fly zones, some which have recently been added, in addition
to not flying them over peoples houses.

------
sudonim
There’s reason to be skeptical.

From a local Portland journalist covering the protests:

[https://twitter.com/alex_zee/status/1302284883625046016?s=21](https://twitter.com/alex_zee/status/1302284883625046016?s=21)

“ Not that I want to legitimize this @reason piece, but I have filmed copious
moments of ppl throwing things at police/vandalizing bldgs/etc & have never
been told I’m not allowed to film. I have never heard of the so-called “IPC.”
The lack of sourcing in this story shows.”

[https://twitter.com/alex_zee/status/1302295695194386432?s=21](https://twitter.com/alex_zee/status/1302295695194386432?s=21)

“ Also, worth noting that this piece is by Nancy Rommelmann. Background:

[https://www.portlandmercury.com/blogtown/2019/01/11/25469480...](https://www.portlandmercury.com/blogtown/2019/01/11/25469480/why-
ristretto-roasters-ties-to-victim-blaming-journalist-matter) “

~~~
sremani
Apparently @alex_zee is no objective observer and has participated in
disinformation.

[https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1300617725354504192](https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1300617725354504192)

~~~
sudonim
This Andy Ngo?

[https://www.salon.com/2019/08/28/right-wing-journalist-
andy-...](https://www.salon.com/2019/08/28/right-wing-journalist-andy-ngo-
outed-video-shows-him-hanging-out-with-far-right-hate-group/)

~~~
macinjosh
Oh Salon, that bastion of levelheaded, fact first reporting. /s

------
ptero
This is the environment in which the journalism originally flourished:
obtaining and reporting information that is not readily accessible otherwise,
often against the wishes of the powers on the ground; and frequently being in
danger while obtaining it. I am not glorifying this setup, it is horrible; but
the _information_ it provides is very valuable.

Unfortunately, nowadays the journalist working on such project will not enjoy
the backing at home: gone are the newspapers that would support independent
investigations and publish important reports even when they do not line up
with the editor's personal preferences. So the journalist reporting an
unconventional view has to working with the other side of the political
spectrum, which leads to being boxed all the same, just in a different box.

I think there is a real need for independent reporting, including (especially)
on hot button topics. I even think that many people would gladly pay for such
news if we can figure out the right model that ensures independence: it is
perfectly OK to publish a partisan report, as long as publishing an opposing
view is also acceptable. My 2c.

~~~
jkhdigital
What’s weird is that the script is flipped here, if this article is to be
believed: it is the alleged “underdog” that is attempting to suppress
journalistic freedom (through intimidation) to control the news narrative.

~~~
humanrebar
The script was always shaky. If there are lines of mayors, governors,
millionaires, corporations, and celebrities lining up to support you, you are
not an underdog. There are not similar lines to make sure a given periodical
has room and support to safely provide agenda-free reporting.

------
z9e
To me this is a mix of the media no longer being trusted, the protestors
wanting to control the narrative that is spread from their actions, and them
trying to protect themselves from being filmed and then arrested.

------
sradman
Interview with the same journalist: _DarkHorse Podcast with Nancy Rommelmann
and Bret Weinstein_ [1].

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfT_APUnp30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfT_APUnp30)

~~~
Fellshard
Bret, notably, lives in Portland, and has been making direct observations
about these events for a while.

------
cwhiz
Just some mostly peaceful Molotov cocktails in Portland last night during the
mostly peaceful riot. Nothing to see here.

During the mayhem a protester was caught on fire but he was mostly not on
fire.

~~~
GaryNumanVevo
Ignoring the 60-day escalation of protests on Portland is pretty dishonest.
Police started using more rubber bullets, harming protestors: they started
bringing homemade shields, etc.

------
cochne
I am surprised to see this on the front page of Hacker News. The article makes
claims which are completely unsubstantiated. There is no audio/video evidence,
and there is no other source (that I could find) corroborating the story, or
even mentioning these phrases. From another comment here:
[https://twitter.com/alex_zee/status/1302284883625046016?s=21](https://twitter.com/alex_zee/status/1302284883625046016?s=21)
IPC does not exist either.

~~~
Fellshard
In a similar way that there are claims that 'Antifa does not exist; it's just
an idea.'

Lack of formal organization does not imply lack of existence. Self-
identification with a group creates grassroots organizations, with different
characteristics than a top-down group, but equally existent.

------
roflc0ptic
Irony unintended: I’d really love to see some videos of protestors shouting
these things. Didn’t see any with the article.

Which isn’t to say it’s all fabrication, but “Reason” doesn’t exactly tend
towards a balanced, reasonable perspective on these things.

------
Fellshard
This is vital to understand for anyone who thinks they know what's going on at
Portland, and - on a broader scale - most current events. There is a massive
polarization of who consumes which facts, and this is simply an encoding of
that: a drip-feed of exactly what one group of people wish to see.

~~~
kombucha111
And you seem to be part of that honestly.

------
14
I was just looking at the zoom of the Nikon p1000 and from over 3 miles away
you can easily zoom in and read a piece of paper. Even if these people don’t
want someone recording them on the ground, a camera could literally be so far
away they would not even see it recording them. It just seems ignorant. I
pretty much assume I am being recorded at all times and act as such. Too many
hidden cameras, security cameras and cameras so good I would not even see them
in action.
[https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=emb_title&v=LhQlwKX3LQA](https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=emb_title&v=LhQlwKX3LQA)

------
mopsi
Comparing scenes from Minsk with scenes from major US cities has been very
interesting this year...

------
Hnrobert42
This is my about half of my (modest) charitable giving goes to media
organizations like Propublica and NPR that try to maintain journalistic
ethics. Without them, we are lost.

------
baryphonic
The mainstream reporting was so bad I just started looking on Twitter. I found
both pro- and anti-"protest" accounts with video. Even the pro-protest account
videos debunk the narrative that these are peaceful African-American
protestors. Whenever one lets the mask slip or shows her hands or hair, it's a
young white person. These are night time riots, plain and simple. Surveillance
footage released by law enforcement shows that Mike Reinoehl loaded and cocked
his weapon lying in wait before he murdered Aaron Danielson. Even the people
generally sympathetic to the antiprotest viewpoint are able to publish their
narratives using videos _from the pro- "protest" side_! Even the Kenosha
story, the one we cant tell on Facebook, is largely misreported.[1]

At this point, these Antifa people (who "don't exist," yet all show up at the
same time and place in a uniform and are even aware enough to know who is and
isn't allowed to film), the mainstream reporting, the Democrats and Leftist
activists seem to want me to believe their words over my lying eyes. I don't
anymore. The illusion is shattered.

I'm a bit embarrassed that people who profess to be hackers in our industry
are actively allowing themselves to be cannibalized by a narrative that is
controlled by those with power over information. Ever since I was a kid,
wresting access to information from a powerful, ruthless elite is what
motivated me to be a programmer and hacker. I couldn't put it into those
terms, but it's the same sentiment from my first exposure at age 12. When a
billionaire self-described hacker uses his authority as the creator of the
largest online social network on earth to censor any evidence that goes
against a certain narrative, even to the point of blacklisting, he has ceased
to be a hacker, as have any employees who continue to be accomplices in this
increasingly absurd information warfare operation.

I have no doubt that many of these people believe they are doing the right
thing, but they themselves have been cracked and don't even know it or are too
fragile to resist. Anytime anyone says "you can't say <X> and you can't look
at the evidence we don't endorse," I'm suspicious. Yet that is what we see
right now.

The largest social networking site in the world will ban posts and even
accounts for saying a certain narrative. The largest video platform in the
world boosts the "reliable sources" mentioned in the article, and only puts
less curated information after it. And the bird application uses trumped up
bans, shadowbans and selective enforcement of policies.

When did hacker culture sell its soul?

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ro8hkfBDVw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ro8hkfBDVw)

~~~
Jonnax
Hacker culture isn't the entire field of programming.

Facebook, Youtube and Twitter are some of the largest businesses in the world
and they are also free services.

I would bet that the majority of people who code or design software find
hacker culture, to be silly.

The most read and shared news websites are anti-protest on Facebook. [1]

With the President and many politicians supporting the killing in in Kenosha,
clearly a portion of those in power support it.

There are alternative news sites, forums and even social media. Nobody is
locked to these sites, except for an entitlement to an audience.

[1]
[https://twitter.com/FacebooksTop10/status/130190203942584729...](https://twitter.com/FacebooksTop10/status/1301902039425847296)

~~~
baryphonic
> Hacker culture isn't the entire field of programming. > > Facebook, Youtube
> and Twitter are some of the largest businesses in the world and they are
> also free services. > > I would bet that the majority of people who code or
> design software find hacker culture, to be silly.

I get what you're saying. And yet Facebook HQ's physical address is 1 Hacker
Way. Not 1 Big Business Way, nor 1 Status Quo Way, nor 1 Software Engineer
Way. Hacker Way. Google used to speak about allowing the whole world to access
information with ease, including projects like making libraries accessible.

Clearly Facebook and Google at least identify themselves with hacker culture.
I'm not sure if Twitter ever professed any sort of noble goals, though it's a
dwarf compared to the other two.

> With the President and many politicians supporting the killing in in
> Kenosha, clearly a portion of those in power support it.

I'm not sure I'd say anyone supports the killing. I personally think it was a
big mistake for that kid to go there, regardless of whether he has the right
to. It was a bad decision, and led to a tragic situation where there were no
winners. That said, he's not a murderer; if anything, the mob was coming after
him (guns firing in multiple cases) to kill him.

I also question the _de facto_ power that the president has when the press
really is able to control when and how he says what he says. And the press's
lies seem to be getting more absurd and brazen. (The personality of the
current president does him no favors. It's a negative, in fact.) He holds _de
jure_ power, but given his inability to pull 2000 troops from Syria or drop
charges against his former National Security Adviser, his legal authority
seems like the Queen's royal prerogatives++. The press and entertainment
industries, the universities and the bureaucracy seem to hold fragments of
power both legally and in the culture, which makes the _de jure_ power a bit
weak.

> There are alternative news sites, forums and even social media. Nobody is
> locked to these sites, except for an entitlement to an audience.

Twitter and Facebook have strong network effects, which effectively does lock
people in. YouTube's are much weaker, which is why I suspect decentralized
video will be the first decentralized service if they can get some legal kinks
worked out. (There's also a legal argument about monopoly common carriers,
even at common law, and how they shouldn't terminate service unless the law is
violated.) However, even if we accepted that these were competitive, this kind
of competition can only exist when we at least have some level of order and
security. The reason.com article seems to indicate how we do not have that
kind of basic stability.

~~~
burfog
Lots of people support the killing. When you look into the background of the 3
people shot, the reasons become obvious. The first person shot had attacked
boys aged 9 to 11, raping 2 and molesting 3 others. The second person shot had
a history of abusive relationships, including strangulation. The third person
shot (surviving) was a burglar. That's 3 out of 3 being horrible people.
Hitting a criminal in that crowd is like hitting a tree in a forest.

Remember that many people feel that a pedophile rapist should get the death
penalty. They are offended by the fact that he was out on the streets of
Kenosha chasing a boy. Some people, probably fewer, feel the same about the
woman abuser. It is a common viewpoint that justice was served.

------
nphd
Wow I kinda thought the article would go into police departments and unions
paying social media management firms to send bad-faith takedown notices for
YouTube videos that cast them in a bad light, but uhh yeah some protesters are
kinda trying to do the same thing with far less resources.

------
Simulacra
"A little firey, mostly peaceful."

------
skmurphy
Journalism is a key element of our collective civic sensemaking. Kent Bye
worked on a model for collaborative journalism he called "The Echo Chamber
Project" see
[https://archive.org/details/KentByeEchoChamberProjectVlogEpi...](https://archive.org/details/KentByeEchoChamberProjectVlogEpisode1_2)
His goal was that documentary film makers could post all of the material they
collected. This would allow viewers to judge what was excluded and to remix it
from other points of view.

------
collective-intl
It's upsetting that this article is flagged. Is there no room for discussion
of alternative views? Censorship is not the answer.

Funnily enough, it may actually harm the BLM movement. If there is no push
back on protesters, they can keep escalating without fearing any consequences.

Ultimately, protests will get so big it will be impossible to censor them into
a positive narrative.

In a couple months, say by Nov. 3rd, the protests could be so out of control
as to tip the election. You're making your own bed.

------
no6
Do you believe there is any validity to the idea that increased political
polarization is synchronous with an increase in systems that perform better
when their data sets are distinctly opposed? Can there be a middle when our
analysis systems perform more poorly in those conditions?

------
geekraver
A magazine called “Reason” publishes a piece which in the second paragraph has
a line about some things being “90% bullshit” 🧐

------
rudiv
Oh partigiano.

------
seibelj
The libertarian non-profit Reason Foundation and it’s associated magazine
(linked article) have become much more prominent and linked as a respected
news source since the beginning of the year. They do fantastic reporting with
a logical (although biased towards freedom and individual rights) and
informative style, which has simply disappeared from mainstream sources like
the NYT and WaPo. I trust Reason much more than other sources.

~~~
lawwantsin17
Bias towards Union busting you mean.

~~~
macinjosh
Busting a union could literally fix the policing problem in this country.
Concentrated power is a problem whether it’s a union, a corporation, or a
government. It’s not black and white.

------
sneak
It makes me sad that an institution I used to like and respect, reason.com,
seems more and more often to subscribe to the standard (and, taken
uncritically, untrue) set pieces of the standard American culture war.

This one, in particular, that “antifa is a violent mob that is super
hypocritical”, and also aliasing “antifa” and “blm” as coterminous.

The truth is very different, but I fear that many in their libertarian
audience have shifted a lot more authoritarian in recent years, so it’s a
logical evolution. It’s just super disappointing to see them regurgitating the
off-the-shelf battle lines instead of digging for real.

~~~
Nesco
> his one, in particular, that “antifa is a violent mob that is super
> hypocritical”

For having met many of them during the Gilets Jaunes demonstration in Paris,
it’s not only true but an understatement. In addition everyone of them I
talked to was of an abysmal intelligence and seemed to come only to destroy. I
completely understand police brutality has I have been gassed, beaten and shot
with rubber bullets while totally cooperative and non violent. However the
behaviour of antifas is unacceptable.

I highly suspect that the government used them to destroy any sympathy towards
the protests. It might be also the case in the US.

~~~
pmoriarty
_" I highly suspect that the government used them to destroy any sympathy
towards the protests."_

There have been documented cases of police infiltrating protest groups and
encouraging violence, and probably many more that happened but have remained
secret (because that's not really what the police ever want to talk about).

This history of provocateurs is mostly unknown to the general public, and
certainly underappreciated.

Another factor is that pretty much anyone can dress in black and claim to be
antifa (or whomever), or just commit violence without any political
affiliation or purpose. Yet it's this anonymous non-organization that will get
blamed regardless.

Very few of the people pointing fingers will bother to (or even have the
capacity to) look beneath the surface to figure out who the violent ones
really are. Much simpler to just slap a label on them and take it at face
value.

~~~
sneak
I know for a fact that the police in Chicago used plainclothes officers to
drag into the street many of their old/junked/rusted/decommissioned police
cars; I'd be surprised if many of the vehicles so moved even functioned.

I presume they either set them alight themselves, or made them extremely easy
targets for the protests, specifically to bolster their "but they're burning
police vehicles!" narrative. The reporting on the matter won't point out that
it's a 30 year old police car with a blown engine that was rusting in the ass
end of a police storage lot for 10 years prior to being burned.

There are also lots of reports of police dressed in all black and not
identified as cops (but wearing earpieces and cop-standard footwear) smashing
things, and lots of pallets of bricks suddenly appearing in protest zones.

The whole story is not being, and likely won't ever be, told.

------
ppf
If you spend any time on the Portland subreddit, you'll see plenty of stories
and comments about how the city is just fine, and only Trump fans with an
agenda push a "rioting and burning narrative". It's amazing watching
hypocritical narrative control in action. These are the same people pushing
for police body cameras.

~~~
Fellshard
And is there not a selection bias at play in a subreddit? People who don't
follow the majority opinions of those on a subreddit are routinely hounded
down and mass downvoted until they leave, seeing it's futile to try and
converse there.

~~~
ppf
Of course there is, except I'm sure a lot of the people on that subreddit are
also heavily involved in "protesting". There certainly is a selection bias at
play in the general population of Portland, too ;)

Edit: I also find it fascinating that the users of the Portland subreddit will
shun or ban you if you are not actually in Portland, as I am sure that a lot
of those folks strongly favour all immigration in general. As I said, it's a
miniature picture of hypocritical narrative control in action.

~~~
Kednicma
We favor legal immigration. Have your papers in order, be able to speak
coherently and talk to people, and be useful to society. We aren't fond of
random fascists coming in from across the Washington-Oregon border, let alone
driving in from Idaho, just to have street fights and arguments.

From our perspective, you're just some hateful outsider who has no experience
living in a society. If you want our respect, then you need to be a better
person, or at a minimum you need to demonstrate that you're capable of being
embedded within a societal context.

~~~
ppf
>From our perspective, you're just some hateful outsider who has no experience
living in a society.

I'm glad we feel the same way about immigration ;)

~~~
Kednicma
Do we? I also think that police officers must live in their precinct. No
Portland cop should live in Vancouver.

I also think that legislators are obligated to do their job. No Oregon
legislator should live in Idaho.

I also think that you, being a non-Portlander, should not have any voice
whatsoever in disputes between Portland's people and its elected leadership.
Our problems are between us, and our city council and mayor and cops; you're
not a party to it.

Edit: Downvoters, use your words. Show us why you think these points are
bogus; explain clearly why you think that you should have a vote in a society
which you don't live in.

~~~
ppf
Oh god people like you are why I left.

You all vote progressive lunatics into office then complain when things go to
shit.

------
luckylion
Sounds a lot like "embedded journalism", i.e. a nicer term for propaganda. You
write what they like, you document what is approved by their media operations,
and you're silent on anything they do that makes them look bad.

~~~
rudiv
Pioneered by the US in the modern day AFAIK. I remember the news reports from
embedded journalists during the second gulf war.

------
mschuster91
Having done a fair share of media work on and in German protests myself: the
biggest problem is that video evidence can and will be used by cops to go
after activists - and that includes material from way outside a riot scene,
given that police also look for such tiny details as shoes to (attempt to)
identify people. The people at such events have something to lose: careers,
families, friendships, years behind bars.

In contrast, in countries like Turkey, Belarus or other dictatorships, where
the fear is getting killed regardless of protests, the situation is different
- people on these protests want their faces to become public so that they
cannot be "disappeared".

~~~
zo1
Go after them for what? Are they doing something illegal?

~~~
ceejayoz
Cops have plenty of ways of going after people who haven’t committed crimes.

[https://projects.tampabay.com/projects/2020/investigations/p...](https://projects.tampabay.com/projects/2020/investigations/police-
pasco-sheriff-targeted/intelligence-led-policing/)

~~~
unishark
In other words, protestors are harassing, assaulting, and robbing reporters
because they might otherwise be unjustly framed for minor crimes.

~~~
Spooky23
Protestors are people and unlike most places Portland is still active months
later.

I would imagine there’s a core cadre of organizers who are no longer able to
hide in the crowd, now that things are less spontaneous. Those folks are going
to try to protect themselves.

------
tomohawk
Happened to a reporter on the Key bridge in DC.

[https://twitter.com/DailyCaller/status/1300857489559375877](https://twitter.com/DailyCaller/status/1300857489559375877)

EDIT: apparently "You're not allowed to Post" also applies

~~~
youareostriches
The Daily Caller has been managed by Tucker Carlson, who attacks protesters on
the air virtually every day. The Daily Caller is known for right-wing troll
articles. There’s no chance in hell that this publication would ever portray
protesters favorably.

~~~
amadeuspagel
And therefore protestors have a right to prevent them from filming in a public
space?

~~~
youareostriches
Oh sure, the Daily Caller certainly has a right to complain. They just
shouldn’t expect anyone to take them seriously about their intentions to
report without bias.

~~~
jes
All reporting is biased, even when people strive to avoid it.

To be human is to have biases and preferences, even if you are unaware of
them.

