
Barcelona residents used sensors to demonstrate high noise levels at night - okket
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-41015486
======
CamTin
'Police now move people on at 23:00. Rubbish lorries, which had previously
cleared up when the partygoers left in the early hours, have been rescheduled
for the morning, and steps that provided seating for gatherers have now been
filled with plant boxes'

OK fine about rescheduling the garbage trucks, but is this really a success? A
vibrant public space has been neutered by more intrusive policing and
architectural changes that encourage people to stay away? I'm somewhat
sympathetic to the people in these apartments, but if this has been going on
for 20 years (and why 20? why not 200?) then property values should already
have adjusted. If you're living here, it's because you made the calculation
about the noise and decided to rent or buy anyway, or else you didn't, and why
is that the City of Barcelona's problem?

~~~
omn1
> If you're living here, it's because you made the calculation about the noise
> and decided to rent or buy anyway

These plazas are commonly located in the old town, so a lot of inhabitants
might have inherited the properties. Also, it's sometimes hard to judge how
loud an area is really going to be before signing the contract - especially
the night-life.

I recently rented a new apartment in a crowded street and while it was
certainly a mistake to move here, I didn't expect it to be _that_ loud since
when we were there for the apartment viewings there were also a lot of other
interested parties and it was distracting from the street noise.

I really wish there would be a project to distribute those noise-tracking
devices and make the realtime data available to the public. It would
definitely influence buying/renting decisions and help for city planning as I
think this serious problem is only tackled on the surface and it brings down
quality of living.

~~~
abalone
Possibly there's a simpler solution. A few years ago San Francisco passed a
law requiring developers to notify potential residents if there is a nearby
music venue, and also protecting those venues from nuisance lawsuits.[1]
Perhaps that could serve as a model for public spaces as well.

[1] [https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/S-F-supes-back-
music-...](https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/S-F-supes-back-music-venues-
against-noise-6244544.php)

~~~
petre
I doubt it would work. Have you been to Barcelona? People party and make noise
even without a music venue. Then there are concerts that get organized in
squares. This one is easy to solve because it requires a permit from the city
hall.

~~~
abalone
Yes I have been to Barcelona, but I think you misunderstood my point. The
article is about a public space known as a regular gathering spot, not a one-
off concert or party. That regularity is what makes it similar to a venue.

------
chinathrow
Noise is a permanent issue of our current times. Noise at day in huge open
space like offices ("Just use headphones"), noise by night in urban areas
("Just use ear plugs"). Meanwhile research has shown, that you can't adjust or
get used to noise - you might think otherwise but your ear and brain is doing
the heavy lifting for you.

"\- We do not get used to noise, but our ears "filter out" unpleasant sounds
and cope as well as they can with the daily exposure to intensive noise.

\- People are unaware of the damage caused by exposure to high levels of noise
due to a lack of information.

\- The damage affects not only our hearing ability. It may also appear in the
form of insomnia, tiredness, lack of concentration, lack of attention at work,
lack of efficiency, and even hypertension, heart problems and digestive
disorders."

[https://www.hear-it.org/we-get-used-to-noise-](https://www.hear-it.org/we-
get-used-to-noise-)

~~~
accnumnplus1
Yes. I get woken up by Heathrow air traffic at 4:30am. Bad. So bad.

------
Zenst
Kinda sad but the gist is that this went on for years and years and it wasn't
until the people got support that they could prove there was an issue with
noise.

Nobody in authority listerned or even checked until then.

~~~
bloaf
It'd been going on so long, I would argue that there is an element of "coming
to the nuisance" [1] going on. That is, the situation is like people who move
next to a farm in order to "get back to nature." Hey! Turn out it sucks to
live next to a farm! Lets shut the farm down!

[1] [https://dictionary.thelaw.com/coming-to-the-
nuisance/](https://dictionary.thelaw.com/coming-to-the-nuisance/)

~~~
ghaff
I mostly disagree with the people who are arguing that late night shouting and
general noisemaking is just part of the culture and people need to suck it up.
But the farm example is a real one. The state where I live has "right to farm"
communities, including the one I live in. On the one hand, it's some specific
rules about being able to establish small farms. But it's also a reminder not
to move out to this nice exurban/rural town and then complain about the smell
of the dairy farm down the street.

~~~
DoreenMichele
Or the roosters crowing.

------
baybal2
Quite a number of ex-bloc countries ban cars exceeding sanitary norm for sound
emission.

My surprise upon my first days in the West was that no Western country seem to
have them.

During my stay in Vancouver I got to know well the people who were reving
their lambos on West Georgia in 3am.

------
stevoski
I live in Barcelona. It is a _noisy_ city. It is just normal for young locals
to sit outside in plaças or on wide streets on weekend evenings, socialising,
having a drink, talking loudly, and even sometimes singing. By evenings I mean
the Spanish definition of evenings, which last until way after midnight.

As a foreigner living here, I try to accept the noise as part of the culture,
even though the noise annoys me. So it is great to read of locals actively
campaigning to reduce noise levels.

On Friday I was in the very plaça (Plaça del Sol) mentioned in the article
with a friend, and it was crowded and loud. All the tables were full, people
were sitting on the steps, and indeed all over the plaça. My friend said, "it
must be bad for the residents". It is good to know at least one plaça in
Barcelona is now moving the crowds on after 11:30pm.

~~~
overkalix
If there is a particularly noisy group, don't be shy to yell at them "calleu
d'una puta vegada".

~~~
jtreminio
I've only been in Madrid and Seville and Granada (from the states), but that
sentence looks like Portuguese to me. Does Barcelona speak a different dialect
of Spanish or did you just type out a Portuguese sentence?

~~~
mitchty
I don't know enough Spanish to talk to that, but its definitely not
Portuguese.

calleu d'una puta vegada

There is at least two words, calleu, and vegada that don't exist in any
Portuguese I've encountered. Also, d'una is... not something I've seen in
Portuguese before.

But I'm a new speaker so I may be missing something.

I found this slang for shut the fuck up in Portuguese, not sure how cromulent
it is: [https://en.bab.la/dictionary/english-portuguese/shut-the-
fuc...](https://en.bab.la/dictionary/english-portuguese/shut-the-fuck-up)

~~~
dcarmo
Definitely not Portuguese, you're right (source: I'm Brazilian.)

~~~
mitchty
Thought as much, not enough a's at the ends tripped my spidey sense. >.<

------
oever
This is about the Smart Citizen project.

[https://smartcitizen.me/](https://smartcitizen.me/)

------
mlinksva
I've been idly wondering whether there is a comprehensive "quiet community"
standard like there is for a "dark sky community"?

From my perspective the main noise pollution problem is fast moving cars,
which have obvious fixes. People loudly hanging out in plazas seem like a more
difficult problem, and not even something I'm all that comfortable with
characterizing as a problem. But maybe turning down lighting could be part of
the solution? Or are places people hang out loudly at already not lighted?

~~~
degrews
I'm from Spain and all city streets and plazas have at least some lighting at
night (enough that one can comfortably walk through the city at any hour of
the night) and even the least lit areas are popular for people to hang out in.
I do not think it would be feasible, desirable or safe to reduce lighting to
the point where it would be uncomfortable to be hanging out at night.

I might even predict the opposite effect: drinking on the street, although
popular, is illegal in Spanish cities. Darker plazas would make it easier to
hide drinking from the police, and could attract even more people.

~~~
mlinksva
Thanks for the perspective. I'm convinced darker streets/plazas is a non-
solution (and note isn't really what dark sky protections are about: it's OK
to illuminate down, just not up).

------
DoreenMichele
_steps that provided seating for gatherers have now been filled with plant
boxes_

So, the same policy of _hostile architecture_ that gets used to try to be
unwelcoming of homeless people can be applied to other demographics and other
social problems. Color me not thrilled with this approach.

I've just never had the kind of life that involved lots of alcohol and loud
parties. So my admittedly biased tendency is to feel there is no tremendous
value in fostering such things. But as other people have noted, this doesn't
just impede loud carousers. It also prevents other kinds of just hanging out
with people.

The article notes that the nearby commercial development basically sold pizza
and beer and suggested this was influenced by the nighttime activities here.
It seems to me that trying to get more of a commercial mix in the area could
help or otherwise try to foster evening activities other than drinking,
hanging in the plaza for free and being loud.

There was one charity that created a midnight basketball program to combat the
problem of inner city youth having nothing to do but be troublemakers. It's
not like you need to reinvent the wheel here, so to speak. There are examples
out there for how to resolve similar kinds of problems in a win/win fashion
that gives the offending parties something better to do instead of merely
vilifying them.

------
trevyn
I wonder what the second and third order effects will be of this type of
enforcement.

------
ComodoHacker
I'm curious, could they use their sensors and other stuff to build some active
noise cancellation system for local inhabitants instead?

~~~
chopin
Like, some buckets of cold water?

------
exabrial
After reading, I chuckled and realized the title could have been: "Residents
use Arduinos to tell at kids on their lawn..."

------
rhn_mk1
We hear the voice of those who live there, but not of those who visit. Both
are likely to be citizens, it seems one-sided to give in to the demands of one
group, and ignore the other. (Or perhaps both were listened to, but the
article gave no indication of that.)

~~~
6t6t6t6
In a society, peoples rights are a lot of times in conflict. In this case, I
imagine that the right of the neigbours to be able to rest at night
superseedes the right of the visitors to have fun by doing "botellón" (dinking
on the street) at night in a residential area.

In any case, this is not special at all. Every European city has regulations
about pollution, including noise pollution.

~~~
ghaff
Hardly unique to Europe. It's very common in American cities to see signs
outside of bars in primarily residential neighborhoods reminding people to be
"considerate of our neighbors" and other words to that effect. Cities tend to
be noisy but that doesn't mean everyone should take an attitude of "There are
sirens and noise anyway, so honk your horn and carouse at 3 in the morning all
you want."

------
_nalply
I misread the title somewhat and now got a «bright» idea: Why not put noise-
canceling loudspeakers on plazas? No idea whether this really would work, but
I think we should explore a technical solution. Because people need a place to
let off steam. A possible double win?

Edit: I googled and found this:
[https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/87833/outdoor-
ac...](https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/87833/outdoor-active-noise-
canceling-speaker#93420) \-- it seems that there are limits of physics which
make such noise-canceling loudspeakers infeasible. It's a pity.

~~~
buro9
Your edit got there before I did :)

I live in a high-rise next to a motorway in London and at 3am I can measure
the noise as 60-70db using a mobile phone noise meter (inaccurate but
indicative).

I investigated the feasibility of using my stereo speakers as noise-cancelling
for the room... mics on the window sills and the speakers to reduce the noise
in the room. I figured it would work well enough to remove the constant
background hum of the road. I was wrong. It doesn't really work, and it is
just noise upon noise.

The best I've managed to do is hang materials inside of the windows (quilts,
sheets) and have been able to knock off just under 10db of noise in the best
case (when it's just the drone of vehicle volume rather than specific engines
or sirens).

The downside is that my high-rise is a high fire-risk tower block and I'm
trading one life affecting issue (noise pollution) for another (fire risk) as
now I have flammable materials inside my windows. Hard to know which affects
sleep more, certainly the noise is the most real and present issue.

~~~
grandinj
Noise cancellation can be a little tricky depending in the frequency. Low
frequencies are easiest. Trying feeding the signal through your PC and
adjusting the delay, using different delay for different frequency ranges.

Some nice thick shag pile carpets, and wall-hung rugs will also help. If you
like posters or pictures, consider using a block frame and putting some sound
adsorbent material between the paper and the wall.

Double glazed windows are your best bet, but probably quite hard to install in
a high rise. Ideally you want the ones where each glass layer is a slightly
different thickness.

Otherwise get some custom fit earplugs from an audiologist, if it's just
sleeping that is a problem. They can even fine tune them, so that voice
frequencies pass through, but other frequencies are blocked.

~~~
buro9
More likely to get a pair of these
[https://www.bose.com/en_us/products/headphones/noise_masking...](https://www.bose.com/en_us/products/headphones/noise_masking_sleepbuds/noise-
masking-sleepbuds.html)

Though stopping or masking all noise carries risk by itself... being unable to
hear what fire alarms we do have.

~~~
ghaff
Assuming these are roughly equivalent to their in-ear headphones, I wouldn't
worry about missing a fire alarm. They're pretty effective, especially for low
frequency noise like aircraft engines, but they're a very long way from
blocking all sounds.

~~~
sigstoat
the sleep pods are a combination of average ear plugs, and tiny little
speakers playing white-ish noise rather loud. they don't do any active noise
cancellation. sounds like they'll be good for somewhere around 90dB of noise
masking.

still doubt they'd stop a fire alarm.

~~~
ghaff
Interesting. I hadn't heard about those. I doubt it would handle 90db though.
That's pretty loud, probably dangerously so for an extended period; it's about
how loud a lawn mower is when you're operating it.

Standard ear protection attenuates about 15-30db.

~~~
sigstoat
the 90dB of noise masking isn't all sound energy. they're also ear plugs (on
the less effective end of things) so 15-20dB of that 90 is from jamming them
into the ear canal.

------
namlem
I feel like they should have maybe subsidized soundproofing in the nearby
buildings rather than ruin the nice outdoor space enjoyed by so many party
goers.

------
woodpanel
Kudos to the residents - but since this article is not just about BCN:

 _> People may not want everything monitored and who decides and shapes this
agenda is a big question for future urban democracy._

That is actually my main problem with those fab labs: As collecting data
becomes a means of power, the fabs are often an attempt to grab that power.
I.e. the people running them are almost always heavily politically aligned
towards one extreme of the spectrum and thus the labs themselves are
ideological echo chambers (at least in my country).

No wonder it produces agendas like these:

 _> "We are trying to build a new productivity model for society, creating a
new sustainable economy in cities where people can prototype and test ideas,"_

Like this (an implied technical ability of the masses) is ever going to
happen. Especially if the ones advocating it, are either shunning people
outside their belief-system or "promoting" the ability with projects and
agendas, no one outside their belief-system is even remotely interested in.

Consider affluent neighbourhood residents going into these labs to print their
own noise detectors because of their annoyance with the asylum-seeker-home
next door. Not gonna happen.

And since Detroit was mentioned: What if those youngsters in plaça del sol
where the ones equipped with sensors?

