
American recycling is stalling, and the big blue bin is one reason why - 001sky
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-politics/american-recycling-is-stalling-and-the-big-blue-bin-is-one-reason-why/2015/06/20/914735e4-1610-11e5-9ddc-e3353542100c_story.html
======
toyg
The problem with recycling is still a focus on the end of the cycle, when much
better results could be had with smarter policies at the beginning -- i.e.
Manufacturing. If thin plastic containers are a problem, ban them and let
Coke/Pepsi/Starbucks figure out how to deal with it -- they have the profits,
smarts and resources to do so. If glass is an issue, ask companies to
contribute towards the cost of handling it separatedly; and so on and so
forth. Otherwise we end up in the usual situation where the taxpayer is left
to pick up the environmental and economic cost of somebody's shareholding
profits.

I say this as a UK taxpayer with 4 different bins and forthnightly collection
-- it's just a farce. I don't get to choose how the stuff I buy is packaged,
but somehow I'm responsible for dealing with it AND I have to pay for the
privilege, while Coke goes ka-ching. That's unfair.

~~~
polymatter
I agree that more can be done to increase incentives for manufacturers to
produce better packaging. I would caution against outright bans, as that often
exacerbates unforeseen circumstances. You might end up encouraging massive
deforestation as manufacturers switch en mass to bamboo packaging or suddenly
roads are clogged up as truck drivers are told to maintain a maximum 30kph to
avoid damaging products. Human systems are ridiculously complex, that was the
chief failure of state-directed Communism.

> I don't get to choose how the stuff I buy is packaged

I think an economist would say you do get to choose. You could have chosen a
different product that was packaged better. Since the onus is on you to sort
out the packaging, you should have incentive to prefer products with packaging
that you don't have to manage.

~~~
daviross
_I think an economist would say you do get to choose. You could have chosen a
different product that was packaged better. Since the onus is on you to sort
out the packaging, you should have incentive to prefer products with packaging
that you don 't have to manage._

That's all well and good until all of the products in X category have the same
packaging. Then there's no way to provide a market signal. (Plus that concept
ignores all nuance. Either something is the __Biggest Deciding Factor Ever __,
or it gets lost in the mix. And even if it is the primary deciding factor,
there 's no way of going "The reason I didn't go with you was because of your
packaging, rather than your price/functionality/willingness-to-spy/tantalum
use." and the result would at-best get confused for something else.

------
sschueller
In Switzerland trash is expensive (very expensive). Ever bag must have one or
more stickers or you need to buy special bags.

This forces people to recycle but we don't have a blue bin to just dump
recyclables in.

In most places bags may also not be left on the street but put into
underground trash collection bins or large metal trash containers.
([http://www.direkt-einkauf.ch/cgi-
bin/resize?tab=23&col=7&id=...](http://www.direkt-einkauf.ch/cgi-
bin/resize?tab=23&col=7&id=32241&x=240&y=240) or
[http://files.newsnetz.ch/story/3/0/1/30114820/6/topelement.j...](http://files.newsnetz.ch/story/3/0/1/30114820/6/topelement.jpg))

Every neighborhood has a recycling station within walking distance. The
consist of containers for the different types of glass, metal and plastic
(PET).
([http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/10116873.jpg](http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/10116873.jpg))

Paper is picked up for free but must be correctly bundled and it is only
picked up one a month. Same with cardboard which is picked up on a different
day. ([http://www.stadt.sg.ch/home/raum-umwelt/abfall-
entsorgung/pr...](http://www.stadt.sg.ch/home/raum-umwelt/abfall-
entsorgung/private-abfaelle/papier-
karton/_jcr_content/Par/imagetext_1.originalsize.jpg))

Many people also have a compost in their yard.

For electronics there is a law that any retailer that sells electronics must
also take them for recycling even if you didn't buy it there.

~~~
sschueller
In case anyone is wondering how they empty the underground trash containers:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhbhvdvTWUg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhbhvdvTWUg)

~~~
cpursley
Wow, that is impressive.

------
streptomycin
Anecdote time:

I've lived in a bunch of apartment complexes that have a huge shared dumpster
for recycling, right next to the one for trash. Sometimes they have separate
recycling dumpsters for paper/plastic/whatever. Sometimes it's just one for
all recycling.

I have NEVER seen the recycling dumpster contain only correct recyclable
items. And when the trash dumpster gets full (which happens very frequently
some places), the shit really hits the fan and people just blatantly dump
regular trash into the recycling.

I always wondered how any of this mixed trash and recycling could ever be
efficiently processed.

------
radicalbyte
In The Netherlands we have paper, garden and plastic bins. Glass, oil and
batteries are collected at shopping centers. PET bottles and most beer bottles
include a deposit and are collected in supermarkets.

Electrics must be taken to the dump.

No idea how metals are handled.

We burn most of our waste and use it to power heating.

~~~
kuschku
Same in Germany. And: It works.

But if the people in the US can’t even handle a separation between one
recycling bin and a waste bin, I don’t think that more separation would be
doable there.

------
keithpeter
UK: We have 2 wheelie bins per household, one for rubbish the other for
recycling. The recycling bin has a tray that fits in the top for
paper/cardboard. Glass/plastic/tins go in the main bin below. May reduce cost
of separation.

See the comically long URL for the leaflet given to householders.

[http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/cs/Satellite?blobcol=urldata&bl...](http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/cs/Satellite?blobcol=urldata&blobheader=application%2Fpdf&blobheadername1=Content-
Disposition&blobkey=id&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobwhere=1223580687381&ssbinary=true&blobheadervalue1=attachment%3B+filename%3D21144462631Recycling_and_Household_Rubbish_Information_Leaflet.pdf)

~~~
eterm
It varies hugely from council to council. Some places have 2 wheelie bins but
all the recycling goes in together (no tray), some places have 2-3 different
boxes, for different recylables.

~~~
jamessb
As well as general waste and recycling, many (most?) have separate garden-
waste and kitchen-waste bins/bags, which get composted or incinerated.

------
greggman
I lived in SF. Stayed at several buildings. Never once saw the compost bin
(green) used correctly even though SF people seem to pride themselves on their
"greenness".

Similarly I worked at a company with 10000+ employees in SV. Even though they
had green (compost), blue (recycle), black (trash) everywhere I never saw them
have the correct stuff in them even though said company prides itself on
hiring smart people.

That leads me to believe recycling by requiring each and every person to
separate their own trash is not really a solution at all.

My understanding is some cities separate it at the dump. If true that seems
like a much larger win. It will likely be correct far more often and only a
few entities to check up on that they're doing it right.

~~~
DanBC
> My understanding is some cities separate it at the dump. If true that seems
> like a much larger win. It will likely be correct far more often and only a
> few entities to check up on that they're doing it right.

The submitted article is about seperation at the dump, and how it doesn't
work.

~~~
maxerickson
GP is talking about a single waste stream, with recyclables being separated
from garbage at the receiving facility, not about the single bin recycling
from the article.

It makes sense from at least some angles, moving concerns about compliance and
contamination to the facility.

------
owly
1\. Please check out the Paperkarma app by reputation.com. It makes getting
off of obnoxious junk mail lists simple. Just take a picture and submit. I
used to get a shitload of junk mail catalogs, now i get maybe 1 or 2 per
month. I HATE junk mail and Paperkarma has easily reduced it by about 80%.

2\. Majority of people are too lazy and stupid to care, that's why they went
to the single bin. I used to live in a large condo complex in the US where I
was essentially the recycling police. No matter what I tried to educate the
building, I still found tons of non-recyclables in the blue bin.

~~~
tomjen3
2) if people don't give a shit (and most don't) then educating them is just
going to cause them to hate you and the recycling.

------
melling
"Another possibility is to follow the urgings of the environmental community
by expanding recycling programs to include composting — the banana peels and
grass clippings degrading in landfills that by some estimates have become the
nation’s third-biggest source of methane gas contributing to global warming.
Composting is partly credited with the success of such cities as San
Francisco, Portland and Seattle in increasing the share of the waste stream
that is recycled each year."

Composting seems like a big win but how is this easily accomplished is urban
areas?

~~~
jessaustin
_...the banana peels and grass clippings degrading in landfills that by some
estimates have become the nation’s third-biggest source of methane gas
contributing to global warming. Composting is partly credited with the
success..._

This seems to imply that if these items were in a compost bin instead of a
landfill they wouldn't be producing that methane? That seems implausible to
me; is there a reasonable explanation?

~~~
ZeroGravitas
It's either incinerated or turned into fertiliser and biogas via anaerobic
digestion in an industrial process not just left to rot naturally like in home
composting.

------
JesperRavn
I have lived in a lot of places, and I never could figure out what should go
where. E.g. what are the limits to the cleanliness of paper/cardboard, and
what about really shiny cardboard packaging? And what kinds of plastic can be
recycled?

I think that there is already plenty of will to sort recycling correctly, but
a lack of detailed information. The mindset of people running these programs
seems to be stuck in a decade or two ago where the main goal was to convince
people that recycling is important.

I was thinking about making an app for this, but never got time.

------
ZeroGravitas
I'm kind of fascinated by this topic. I believe on balance, the big blue bin
is a positive thing. But it's a complex engineering equation. More recycling
coming in but with an increase in wastage. How much of that wastage is
necessary and how much can be eliminated with smarter sorting machines or
better policies or consumer awareness? It reminds me of complex software
performance optimzation where you need to balance CPU, ram, disk access to
make sure that 'obvious' improvements aren't ineffective or even counter
productive.

I'm not sure I appreciate the "do-gooders mess it all up again" vibe in the
middle of the article, but the US has always had a weird relationship with
recycling for whatever reason.

I'm glad to see food recycling raised as a solution, they do that where I live
and it makes a lot of sense compared with having it decompose to methane in
landfills (though some landfills do try to capture the methane and then burn
it for ebergy its better to get it at source).

A carbon tax (ideally one covering other GHGs like methane) would probably
sort out the recycling market along with the million other markets it would
fix, but the time for the obvious and sensible solution is not quite nigh,
though since even the oil and gas corporations are advocating it now in Europe
it may not be too long now.

~~~
a8da6b0c91d
Recycling has mostly been a farce from the get-go. The only two things that
make sense are aluminum and corrugated cardboard. On no economic or ecological
basis has all the other paper and plastic recycling made sense.

The blue bin should be for cans and cardboard, and that's it. Everything else
is pointless.

~~~
JesperRavn
I'd appreciate if you posted a top level comment with more detail on this
point. I've seen this claim made a lot, but when I looked into it further
there were a lot of contradictory claims and evidence. If you're aware of a
good summary of the facts, or some compelling evidence for your side, I'd like
to see it.

------
colinbartlett
What is the comparative effectiveness of reuse initiatives? Where bottles are
returned and washed and refilled? Obviously not applicable for paper products,
but I wonder why this fell out of practice in the U.S.?

~~~
a8da6b0c91d
Allegedly the old deposit system worked great. The bottlers were forced to pay
for returned bottles, taking care of the disposal problem. But coke and pepsi
didn't like that, so here we are.

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
Wait, the US had a deposit system and _got rid of it_? What?!

------
Havoc
I must say I'm shocked by the state of recycling in the UK. People keep
putting stuff into the wrong bins as if they can't read.

~~~
pascalmemories
It's much more likely that they cannot figure out from all the complex clauses
and sub-clauses councils have.

Mine went along the lines of it's recycled if it's paper but not if it's
certain types of paper unless it has a recycle logo on it but then not if it's
has any food residues. The list went on like that for multiple pages. Handily
it was in around 12 languages too, but I was in London (and technically an
immigrant, so I suppose the multiple languages were for me).

Then there's the fine for having an empty bin on collection day but also a
fine for having the lid ajar from ever so slightly more than the bin holds -
you were allowed up to 1/4 of an inch (yup, documented in the explanation
leaflet) (and they have private contractors going around at 4am to check that
and issue fines before anyone gets up in the morning).

Plus, of course, once it's all collected, the council send it all to landfill
and don't bother recycling it at all. [1] And still do it after being caught.
[2] Or they just dump it in Africa or China instead of landfill/recycling. [3]

There are endless examples of the bone-headed UK public sector approach to
recycling which makes it a waste of time. Sir Humphrey Appleby would be proud.

I don't think you're being fair trying to blame it on some sort of illiterate
proles.

[1] [http://www.courier.co.uk/Wealden-council-sending-
residents-r...](http://www.courier.co.uk/Wealden-council-sending-residents-
recycling/story-16759899-detail/story.html)

[2]
[http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/news/10467239.Council_aga...](http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/news/10467239.Council_again_caught_sending_recycling_to_landfill/)

[3] [http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/538317/Britain-sends-
ton...](http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/538317/Britain-sends-tonnes-
recycling-waste-China-residents-wade-dirty-streets)

~~~
Havoc
>It's much more likely that they cannot figure out from all the complex
clauses and sub-clauses councils have.

Well my comment was based more on what I see at semi-public bins. Stuff like
people throwing alu foil into bins marked "food waste" & similar complete
disregard of even attempting to do it right. You just need one or two people
doing that & the entire process can be scrapped.

~~~
pascalmemories
Your own example actually highlights the resultant confusion I'm talking
about.

I agree with you that it is not, but cooking foil could reasonably be
interpreted as being food waste because it's involved in cooking food and
likely to have bits of food stuck to it.

If you travel round the world, different places have very different lists of
what is permitted. In London, bones were a no-no for food waste, but in
Toronto, the organic waste bin allows bones, pet litter, used diapers, paper
plates and even paper towel with cleaning products in it - all in regular
plastic shopping bags (so no need for cellulose bags like in the UK). Frankly,
I have no idea how they sort that lot out - I hope no-one actually touches any
of the stuff.

The whole process is so complex (in every location) that is is almost
impossible to get right and that is the fundamental problem getting an
effective recycling regime to work. (Though, Toronto does have a handy trash
guide on their website to help you pick where it goes
[http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonly?vgnextoid=03ec...](http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonly?vgnextoid=03ec433112b02410VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD))

It was all so much simpler in my remote rural past where anything organic was
eaten by the dog, anything flammable was burned for heating and the remains
(essentially a few tin cans and glass jars) went into the trash (in theory,
that was easily recyclable but it was before it was a Thing).

~~~
Havoc
>but cooking foil could reasonably be interpreted as being food waste

oh I hope thats not whats going on. That would be closer to lack of common
sense than rule confusion.

The tricky cases I understand - as you say the rules are difficult - its the
obviously wrong stuff that gets to me where people chucked it in the closest
bin.

------
TYPE_FASTER
I think single stream is the future, it's just going to take time to optimize
the sorting efficiency using technology.

------
sosuke
Sub-divide one taller bin with labels. Then you can't just toss any sized
thing in there.

