
PayPal? No way - type0
https://minifree.org/paypal/
======
guessmyname
> Why are wire transfers better? [...]

As other comment says [1], this is true for in-house transactions, but is hell
for foreigners. I had to quit my job as a contractor for an American company
because the bank in my home country blocked all the wired transfers after the
sum of all the money started to exceed an annual limit of USD $25,000. I tried
to create an international bank account in Chase, Wells Fargo, Bank of
America, HSBC, and Citi and they all rejected my application because a) I
don't exist in the credit system and/or b) my home country has a bad
reputation.

I tried to use PayPal but their fees are too high and I realized that there
was no easy way for me to get that money out of their system since their
service is not popular where I live. Right now there are 15 days worth of my
salary in my PayPal account that I cannot touch. If getting a work visa wasn't
hard enough, now I cannot work for any international company _(as a remote
contractor)_ because I cannot get paid, nice, very-very nice — the perfect way
to kill people's dreams.

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12697811](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12697811)

~~~
throwaway13337
You sound like the perfect use case for the Estonian e-residency. You can sign
up online and with it open an Estonian bank account.

~~~
guessmyname
Thanks, I just checked the process and benefits, it seems like a good
solution. However, when I was filling the form [1] I realized that the list of
countries where you can pick-up the document is limited to 35 unique states,
none of them is in South America which is where I live, so if I choose any of
them I would need to get a visa to travel to that country just to get this
document, which is kind of ironic.

[1] [https://apply.e-estonia.com/](https://apply.e-estonia.com/)

------
ctpide
Seems this is a very one sided view from the sellers perspective. I believe
most people want to use PayPal to be more secure. I've paid plenty of bills
through simple wire transfers, but those were large reputable utility
companies or merchants I trust. Small websites which are completely unknown to
me, don't deserve the trust to wire money to, immediately, sorry, but I rather
not have to hire a lawyer to get my money back in case something screws up.
That's what PayPal and CreditCards are for.

~~~
nerdponx
PayPal has a terrifying privacy policy.

------
finishingmove
I'd just gone through the process of moving some ~40 accounts on various
websites from having a Yahoo email address to a Gmail one. By far the most
unpleasant experience was with PayPal.

First I changed my email address. I received a confirmation and re-activated
my account. Nice so far. Then I thought I'd generate a new, longer password. I
pasted the 24-character password into the settings form. It was saved
successfully.

After trying to login again though, it just wouldn't accept my login! So I
went through the password recovery process. I received a link and then was
asked to answer security questions. The security questions were ancient, so I
facepalmed at first, but I was pretty sure I got the answers right after some
thinking. It took me 10 tries to get the proper variation of the answers (it
doesn't tell you which one is wrong).

Then I was presented with the new password form. I tried to paste the new
24-character password again. _This form didn 't allow you to paste the
password in, you had to type it in manually for "added security"._ Then I
realized _the password was limited to 20 characters, and the previous form (in
account settings) was just happily letting me paste a 24-character password
while trimming the end silently!_.

And this is 2016 on the web...

~~~
lstamour
Don't get me started on their support for two-factor. Really, I have to sign
up via obscure forms (at least at the time) for a Symantec VIP app that's
incompatible with other such apps? And occasionally I'm asked to retype my
password with the VIP digits appended to the end? [https://www.paypal-
community.com/t5/Access-and-security/PayP...](https://www.paypal-
community.com/t5/Access-and-security/PayPal-App-amp-Security-Key-log-in-
issues/td-p/890587/page/2?profile.language=en-gb)

------
watchdogtimer
Wire transfers may work well in Europe, but they do not work well for making
transfers from Europe to most banks in the U.S. The reason why is because
banks in the US do not use IBAN numbers, and very few have SWIFT codes.

To do an international wire transfer into the US, it must first be routed
through one of the few large banks that have their own SWIFT code (e.g. Wells
Fargo), then often through a second intermediary bank before the payment
reaches the receiver's bank. All the routing in the US is done using ABA
numbers, which is unique to the US.

Few European banks seem to be able to handle this convoluted process. More
often then not, when we've attempted to receive an incoming wire transfer from
from a European customer, the payment has gotten misrouted because the sending
bank neglected to fill out the application form properly.

By contrast, we've had very few problems receiving international payments via
PayPal.

------
45h34jh53k4j
Ridiculous.

Bank wires can cost $20-50. Unless we are sending you thousands its rarely
cost effective to wire funds.

Use bitcoin for your donations like everyone else in the 'freedom' game.

~~~
jasonkostempski
Serious questions, is bitcoin still worth anything and has it become even
remotely easy to obtain and spend? I still like the idea of it but, last I
heard any real news about it, it was how people were loosing tons of it to
scams and flams.

~~~
ceor4
Yeah, it's still alive and kicking. I try use it when I can, it has a lot of
nice properties. As an unregulated industry it is abound with scams and fraud,
but if you use common sense, and avoid anything remotely "get rich fast" or
"altcoins" you'll do fine. If you're interested in it, I'd highly recommend
signing up with circle.com or coinbase.com and buying $5 or $10 worth of
bitcoin to play around

------
vortico
Nothing was mentioned about payment processors like Square, Stripe, Bluepay,
Heartland, Authorize.Net, CCNow, Transfirst, etc.

They have their disadvantages too, but the writer doesn't even evaluate them.

~~~
Teichopsia
I hope this question is fine to ask, eternal beginner here. The few times I've
looked for alternatives to stripe I'm inundated by choices and unfortunately,
stripe doesn't work in my country. Nor is Atlas an option. What are good
alternatives to them?

~~~
ianlevesque
PayPal :(

There's a reason people care enough to hate them.

~~~
Teichopsia
Same problem with PayPal. I can't get the money out. The closest I've been
able to get was when I found a website a few weeks ago where I could buy game
cards, gift cards. Doesn't help much when one wants to pay for bills and
groceries. Is it too much to ask for a service that works in Central America?

~~~
kjax
The company I work for supports a ton of payment processor integrations, and
Central and South America are always a bit rough for coverage. Depending on
your country, Credomatic or Paguelofacil might work?

~~~
Teichopsia
Thanks, I'll look into those. Last year or so people here on HN were talking
about a payment processor from Latin America (can't remember the name). The
general consensus was not to trust it. I'll definitely look into those two,
thanks again.

------
oliwarner
A lot of people label Paypal as _evil_. Usually because they or somebody they
know has suffered as a direct result, but I don't think that shows malicious
intent.

Paypal is just lazy —or efficient, if you're on their side— when it comes to
risk. That is to say that if they have reason to believe they might lose money
with a transaction you make, they make you absorb that risk as inconvenience.
The most commonly complained about is holding back funds while they wait for
your customers to issue chargebacks. Chargebacks are HORRIBLE because the
underlying payment people demand they just happen. It can be a huge loss point
for payment intermediaries.

With that sort of potential loss, it's simply easier for Paypal —the lawyer-
breathing behemoth that they are— to assume you're more likely to suck it up
than try to sue (have you read the T&Cs). And they've scaled this so it all
happens automagically. How very efficient/evil of them.

If you want the best rate as a seller, you have to be a super-low risk and
find somebody that understands your business, its risk and is willing to
undercut the standard-risk market to process your payments for you.

\---

Direct wire transfers put [almost] all the risk on the consumer. There used to
be a timeframe you could "intercept" a transfer but with things like Faster
Payments in the UK, transfers are practically instant and irreversible without
a court order.

So no, for the purposes of buying stuff, wire transfers aren't better for us.
They're free for you, but we take on a LOT of risk.

------
kazinator
If you misroute a wire transfer (get some detail wrong), the receiving bank
will get the money anyway. They will wire it back---with probably close to a
hundred bucks missing.

~~~
AstralStorm
Unless it ends up in a wrong bank in the other system in US, who do not have
SWIFT codes. If it's gone then, because back routing info can and has been
lost.

------
tscs37
Oh FFS, they go through the trouble of not accepting paypal but "free-er"
alternatives like Bitcoin are too much?

This is ridiculous either way, I'll gladly use PayPal any time and I use
Bitcoin any time too.

I'd say "FFS FSF" if it was still FSF, but alas the right to make such
wordplay was denied to me.

------
sudhirj
TLDR: Paypal is shit and other payment processors are meh. But we realized we
only take really high value payments, which means that wire transfers make
more sense.

------
tempestn
Anyone know what the story is with this one?

> Western Union?

> This requires the director of Minifree to show her ID to a cash pickup
> point, which she doesn’t want to do.

Showing proof of identity in order to pick up cash seems pretty reasonable to
me.

~~~
walrus
Speculation: her ID is probably outdated. The author is trans[1] and
transition in the UK is notoriously difficult. In particular, it takes at
least 2 years to change the gender marker on one's ID[2].

[1] [https://libreboot.org/gnu/](https://libreboot.org/gnu/)

[2] [https://www.gov.uk/apply-gender-recognition-
certificate/over...](https://www.gov.uk/apply-gender-recognition-
certificate/overview)

------
hprotagonist
I feel like i read screeds like this starting in about 2000. Unlike then,
there _are_ other options now. And in the US, the CFBP regulatory banhammer is
about to drop as well.

~~~
chipperyman573
>And in the US, the CFBP regulatory banhammer is about to drop as well

Why do you think so?

~~~
hprotagonist
>The new CFPB rules are sweeping not just in their treatment of prepaid
accounts, but in their broad interpretation of what a prepaid account is. The
regulations will cover reloadable cards, cards used for government benefits,
payroll cards, and some popular electronic and mobile systems. Venmo and
PayPal, for instance—which allow users not only to pay each other directly,
but to store money within the platform—will also be required to follow
stricter guidelines and assume more liability for fraud, loss, and account
errors. The CFPB has included digital-wallet options in its rules in spite of
strong objections from the industry, which maintains that its products don’t
pose the same risks to consumers that prepaid cards do.
[0]:[http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/10/cfpb-
pre...](http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/10/cfpb-prepaid-
venmo/503000/)

------
kazinator
Can you send someone a $10 project donation using a wire transfer?

Won't the wire fee be like 30 bucks or something? 300%.

~~~
AstralStorm
International wire transfers just do not work for small amounts. Even in case
of EU internal you can get hit with equivalent of 3-5 € each.

Going to US? Better bring $30.

------
kylebenzle
> Bitcoin? Other cryptocurrency?

> Cryptocurrencies are generally difficult to deal with, accounting-wise

Not true, use BitPay.com and you never need to touch that dirty dirty internet
money if you don't want to.

>In UK tax returns, you also need to convert everything to GBP

Done, use Bitpay or similar service to accept cryptos and have the
increasingly worthless GBP deposited directly into your bank account.

> so this means we’d be forced to use a BTC exchange.

Not directly at least, you just made this up didn't you?

You don't like the current model but are unwilling to even look into the best
alternative available? Bitcoin is money, you can accept the money or not, but
don't blame the money just because you don't like that particular shade of
green.

------
shorttime
I'd love a new alternative but it has so much popularity and it's hard to find
an alternative people use. I try to use Snapcash whenever possible or an app I
found on the Android Store - Cash. Was surprised Venmo was owned by Paypal.

------
zhuzhu
I think the author don't know what is small business. And global business.

------
boogdan
Did anyone used or is using TransferWise? Is it any better than Paypal when it
comes to send/receive amounts in different currencies?

[1][https://transferwise.com](https://transferwise.com)

~~~
codingmyway
I was thinking this. TransferWise should move into PayPal's territory and give
them some competition

------
ofir_geller
I took a look at the products while visiting the site. Where would one go to
find laptops that are preinstalled with free software but are also powerful?
high-end cpu and the like.

------
symlinkk
weird how people almost universally hate PayPal with a passion but never bring
it up when talking about Musk

~~~
jimminy
What does Musk have to do with the modern Paypal, that is generally disliked.
The primary issues with Paypal come from the freezing of accounts, that
doesn't affect the majority of users. It mostly only has effects for business
with spiky sales that may appear fraudulent.

But the current view of PayPal is different from the historical view. PayPal
was a brilliant service through the end of the 90's and early-00's, while Musk
was involved. You can't retroactively apply the dislike the service has
generated since their paths diverged. And even then I would contribute much
more of the social impact to Thiel.

~~~
tedunangst
PayPal didn't freeze accounts in 2000?

~~~
jimminy
I didn't say or even imply that.

I pointed out a primary reason we often see these kinds of posts, (freezing
accounts), in one paragraph.

Then in the next, I mention the overall view of Paypal is more negative than
it used to be, when you could have actually attributed something about that to
Musk.

------
ajdlinux
"Wire transfers usually have zero fees for the merchant, and usually low or
zero fees for the purchaser"

Domestically? Sure.

Internationally?
Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

~~~
ctpide
To be fair - the main reference was inside the EU. And fees for international
transfers inside the EU have been subject to regulations are are now generally
close to zero. Different story for outside EU, though - absolutely agree!

~~~
feklar
As soon as you start getting x > Sepa transfers banks will drop you quickly,
or sooner if anything goes wrong like a fraud xfer comes in, and you aren't a
huge account worth the bank's trouble.

