
Idea Guy Looking for Developer - getp
http://www.bubblefoundry.com/blog/2011/05/idea-guy-looking-for-developer/
======
flyosity
The thing that always gets me is that "idea guys" seem to assume that
"developers" can't get ideas, like it's a skill that only a select few can
possess. Guess what? Everyone has ideas, and being a developer is great
because we can actually build our ideas.

~~~
zeemonkee
A "business person" may be a domain expert in a vertical market. They may have
an idea that requires an insight that only comes from years of working inside
an industry that a developer, unless they have also worked in that industry,
will simply not have. Furthermore the "business person" will be able to
network in that industry.

~~~
drzaiusapelord
Except "business person" has no idea how to market applications, what works
with online marketing, and how to effectively communicate what the application
does. Let alone how to sell apps commercially to skeptical deep pocketed IT
buyers who ask questions regarding such "arcane" things like HIPPA or SOX or
assurance or compatibility with large enterprise solutions.

His big contacts file is useless because his domain is in selling real estate
not selling real estate apps.

~~~
zeemonkee
Generally I've found domain experts to have a healthy respect for other
professions, including developers. I'm not talking about the caricature
Craigslist mouth-breather with the awesome let's-clone-Facebook-for-$200 idea.

Sure, the real estate seller may not know about apps, but they do know what
works and what doesn't work in the real estate market, what the potential
legal issues may be, and where the pain points are. I've never worked in real
estate, so I don't.

I suspect that's why so many pure-developer run startups are either things
that only interest other developers (project management tools and the like) or
things that "everybody" knows about, e.g. yet another Twitter client or social
networking thingamajig. There's a ton of cash in vertical markets we don't
touch because we don't know the right people in those industries to partner
with.

The successful businesses I've worked in(startups that went on to achieve
success, or already successful small to medium sized businesses) have all been
in vertical markets - from forestry to tourism to retail marketing. You
couldn't have built these on developer savvy alone. That may go against the HN
philosophy that software developers are the be all and end all of startups,
but the reality is that most successful businesses need teams of people of
different backgrounds.

------
jtbigwoo
Here's the funny thing about learning to program vs. hiring a developer. I
politely decline offers to work on ideas that my non-programmer friends come
up with. However, if one of those friends came to me and asked to learn PHP,
I'd happily spending a few evenings helping them out. It's a difference that
very few "idea guys" seem to understand.

~~~
invalidOrTaken
This a thousand times. It's also the perfect thing to remind you that you're
not being at _all_ "ungenerous."

------
thetrumanshow
"They both think that less skill is required (so the programmer doesn’t
deserve much compensation) and that less time is required (effectively
creating a very low hourly rate for the programmer, given the flat rates that
are often proposed)."

I find it ironic how he points out that idea guys tend to undervalue the hard
work of the programmer and then at the end he suggests that the idea guy
should implement it himself.

So which is it? Is programming a hard-earned skill that should be paid well,
or is it just so easy that a (presumably non-technical) idea guy can just pick
it up and run with it? You're sending mixed messages.

~~~
smokeyj
> So which is it? Is programming a hard-earned skill that should be paid well,
> or is it just so easy that a (presumably non-technical) idea guy can just
> pick it up and run with it?

Programming can be a hard-earned skill that an intelligent idea guy can
acquire. No false dilemma required.

~~~
thetrumanshow
That is certainly so. However at the intersection of two sets {draws two
circles}: 1) Idea guys with money, 2) idea guys who think programming is easy
... there probably isn't much interest in paying engineers.

The intersection is getting larger thanks in part to engineers self-
deprecating like this, which is potentially good for innovation and
potentially bad for my wallet.

~~~
owenmarshall
IMO, both you and smokeyj are correct.

The real advantage in telling the "idea guy" to try to build it themselves
comes when they realize that programming _is_ difficult. Sure, they could
master it if they were willing to put in the time and effort, but their
interests center around the business: sales, investors, etc.

At this point, the idea guy has two choices: either understand that they've
got to bring something more than ideas to a partnership, or stubbornly cling
to the hope that their idea is enough.

The more people that realize that ideas alone have no value, the better.

------
esmevane
There's also the (insulting) concept that many of these folks seem to have,
which is: Did it never cross your mind that a lot of us spend the bulk of our
free time developing our own ideas?

For the majority of Idea Man pitches I've spent time with, there's been a
ridiculous amount of assumption involved. These folks are so excited by their
own idea, they can't wait to tell me about it. Then what?

Do they want to help me build it? No.

Do they want to design it for me? No.

Do they want to contribute in any way? No.

Do they even usually have money or resources to lay down? No.

Will they pimp it when it's time to? No.

Will they go and seek venture capital to facilitate it? No.

At this point, it is undeniable that their involvement is as close to nil as
makes no odds. It may as well be my idea, but usually the ideas I hear are
bad, as well. So it would be my idea, that I file away as a concept not worth
doing.

And the underlying assumption, of course, that I don't have my own pet
projects that I'd much rather develop for free, in my spare time, is
ridiculous.

Ideas themselves shouldn't be completely discounted. But if you do not have
the impetus to follow up or power your idea, I think that generally speaking
you ought to keep it to yourself until you feel like following through in some
way or another.

~~~
sledmonkey
I just had an idea man want to pitch something to me but he wanted me to sign
an nda before he would even tell me anything about it. Sorry, i'm not going to
put my projects at risk just to hear it.

------
gabrielroth
This is an issue that comes up over and over. The real problem is a mismatch
of supply and demand: there are lots of ideas out there, and not enough
developer hours to bring them all to fruition, so a guy with an idea will need
to offer more than just the idea if he wants to attract developer time.
Someone who fails to understand this problem probably shouldn't be trying to
start a business.

------
duopixel
I'm always amused at the "why don't you try building it yourself" response
developers give when they're asked this kind of question. The amount of
knowledge you need to execute an idea is staggering. Deep down they know
there's a 99.9% chance the guy will fail.

It's as if a person went up to an architect and asked him to build him a hotel
with promises of sharing the future revenue stream. Architect responds "I
can't, but if you don't have money you could try building it yourself".

There's no easy answer for the penniless idea guy. Perhaps stating (in a very
polite way) that—as the biz guy—he should work on his own net worth before
generating it for others.

~~~
SwellJoe
I've seen people learn to code in order to build their ideas. It's even
occasionally turned out OK.

I've also seen people learn to build in order to build their own gazebo, deck,
and even a log cabin. It's not a hotel, but it is a useful piece of
construction that a person with no architecture eduction can build with only a
moderate amount of knowledge and experience. Some development projects are the
equivalent of a deck or gazebo: A weekend project for someone experienced, and
a two week learning process for someone who's never lifted a hammer (or opened
a text editor).

I don't think it's terrible advice for an "idea guy" that doesn't have money.
That's not to say it'll be a success. It almost certainly won't. If they're
competing with experienced developers, they'll probably lose in the market,
but they'll learn more about the value of developer time, and they'll learn
how to better interact with developers because of that understanding. Maybe
their next project will be more realistic, and they'll figure out how to
fairly compensate a developer for their time.

That said, I think your last sentence is very astute. Maybe a self-proclaimed
biz guy ought to prove himself by getting money lined up first, either by
earning it, or convincing people to invest in him.

~~~
jtbigwoo
Just creating and publishing a simple app or proof of concept can make a huge
difference in generating interest from possible partners.

Most biz guys make the following offer: "I have an idea; I need you to
implement it." Imagine if he could say this: "I have a prototype that I've
been working on, but it's pretty amateurish; I need you to make it
professional." I know which one I would take seriously.

~~~
mgkimsal
Or even "I paid someone to do some mockups and/or a small prototype, but I
need someone to make it really work properly". That would indicate they'd gone
beyond the 'idea' stage in to concrete action, and aren't afraid to put up a
bit of cash to get started.

------
geebee
There was such a great hn post about this a while back, wish I could remember
where...

The gist was, if you're a "business guy", I need you. Ok, you can't code, so
here are some other ways you can contribute: you can tap into an impressive
network to set up meetings with vcs, negotiate favorable terms, successfully
navigate the legal system, get my product into the press, massively expand the
user base, make sales, and convince people to hand over money....

...but if you think you're a "business guy" because you think up nifty ideas
for computer applications but can't code or do any of the above, you aren't
useful to me as a cofounder.

------
topbanana
This is effectively cutting out the middle man. They're not looking for a
developer, they're looking for an investor who can do the development too.

------
true_religion
I don't think that ideas are worthless when they are coming from a position of
deep domain knowledge.

For example, I'm currently involved in a seed-stage startup that aims to bring
technical and quantitative stock analysis tools to the masses (i.e. protect
your 401k by being able to read the market). We have contacts in the finance
industry, and each one of those is _golden_ because they bring a wealth of
domain experience that is hard if not impossible to find out through books.

------
prknight
I think a partnership can make sense if there is complimentary leverage, i.e.
both parties bring something to the table that the other can leverage to their
benefit + the combination of both parties creates additional leverage.

Just having the idea in most situations just isn't a lot of leverage for a
developer to become interested. But if you pair an idea up with:

Idea + capital, Idea + connections, Idea + salesmanship, Idea + passion +
market opportunity + timing etc..., Idea + hustle, Idea + mentorship /
experience, Idea + proof of concept, initial customers etc, Idea + market
knowledge with a significant edge over others, Idea + accounting / misc biz
skills

or a combination of those...and then you should be able to find a developer
that is able to see enough upside to work with an idea person. The default
answer shouldn't need to be 'learn how to code' in most cases. My viewpoint is
to not do what you're hopeless at in 99% cases. There's not a lot of leverage
there - ideas like speed. It's more valuable to get better at what you're
already good at. If you're stubbornly trying to learn how to code and design
despite hating the process, you simply didn't exhaust other avenues that yield
a more expedient route to launching whatever idea/vision you have.

I did go down the learn how to code/design/market myself route because it's
fun to me and that's a form of leverage that gives a potent edge. But I really
hate seeing people struggle because they suck at what they are trying to
learn, don't enjoy what they are learning but yet are using such things as
obstacles to be conquered that they falsely believe are necessary to succeed.
Sometimes it's just an excuse not to be doing what you're good at.

~~~
ChuckFrank
Absolutely. Mutually complimentary leveraging maximizes team members strengths
instead of focusing on their weakness. I love the analogy of that my high
school coach used to use all the time about the Quarterback and the Wide
Receiver. Both are necessary components to scoring. One throws, one runs, and
as a dispassionate evaluator, coach would always argue that the best thrower
throw to the best runner, instead of suggesting that either the thrower or the
runner should do the opposite. I think solving technical problems is similar.
Hustlers should hustle and hackers should hack, so that together problems can
be solved, and solutions improved. Because in the end, that's what important.
Isn't it?

------
michaelbuckbee
I think idea guys (or non technical cofounders) would do much better finding a
programmer to work with if they approached developers more collaboratively.

Most of the pitches I get from 'idea guys' are very specific technical
solutions that flatly will not work as designed because (lacking knowledge)
they made some poor assumptions.

Much better would be an idea guy that came and said: "I've found X problem in
the market, solving it would be worth Y dollars annually, what approach would
you take to solve that?"

In my current startup (with a non-technical cofounder _) we delineate this as
the 'what' and the 'how'. He has much greater domain knowledge than I do, he
describes what the problem is, how painful it is to the customers, etc. I
figure out how to best implement solutions to those issues. Obviously it isn't
quite that cut and dried, but in general the approach has been working.

_ Calling my current co-founder 'non-technical' or 'the idea guy' does him a
great disservice as he is incredibly capable and the very definition of the
kickass get off the ground business guy (wrangling VC, making sales, talking
to customers)

------
pavel_lishin
> Second, why not learn to make it yourselves? Without knowing what you want
> to do I can’t say how hard it’d be, but often it’s a lot easier than you
> might think.

Yup, because four years of school and five years of professional experience
can easily be replaced with an O'Reilly book and a weekend in front of a
monitor.

Yes, idea folks should know something about technology, but this is akin to
suggesting that the next time my tooth hurts, I ought to just read a book and
go to town with a mirror and a Dremel tool.

~~~
saraid216
Dentists don't work on themselves, either. The first step to getting
contributors to your project is to start coding the project and showing it
off. If your prototype code is crap, at least it still demonstrates your idea
in a concrete way and gets people viscerally excited about it.

------
bestes
There seems to be an assumption that idea guy == business guy. Also that idea
guy has no knowledge or understanding of anything technical. And that somehow
idea guy is always trying to scam you.

I think ideas are a skill just like anything else. Most people can design a
web page. Not everyone can design a _good_ web page. Most people can or can
learn to program, but that does't mean they can develop a good site (this one
is a bit more of a stretch).

As a converse, I know quite a few (very good) developers who have ideas, but
those ideas suck. And so do their UIs. And their marketing plan.

------
bpm140
I'm a marginally successful product guy and I regularly get asked by people
how to find developers to implement their Big Idea.

I tell them to go talk to developers and find out the developers' Big Ideas
and then work on one of them.

You get to work on a startup and hopefully build a relationship that will span
multiple products and companies.

------
ChuckFrank
Having gone through this process several times, I've found that the most
important part of the 'idea vs implementation' equation is 'mutual
complementarity'. Regardless of where the 'idea' comes from the participants
must agree both on the 'problem statement' ie. 'having multiple information
screens in a single household is inefficient' and on the 'problem solution'
ie.'unify information screens'. If you agree on this, then you simply lay out
the tasks required to complete the work. Finally, the skills needed to
complete the task should only overlap in accordance to the quantity of work
that needs to be done. So, in starting out, when it's important to have the
breadth of skills, it's important to minimize the overlap. So while the Idea
person may be the developer, they may also be the designer, the marketer, the
seller, the writer, the networker, the motivator, or the enabler, all
essential elements to successfully solving a problem statement. So the a
priori ideas that a)ideas are negligible compared to implementation eg 1%
inspiration vs. 99% perspiration and b) the lone genius has a higher success
rate, appear in retrospect to be false, since in actuality it appears that
[two is indeed the magic
number](<http://www.slate.com/id/2267004/pagenum/all/#p2>)

------
adaml_623
This article talks a lot about money and time but doesn't mention the simple
fact that some developers (or is it only me) won't want to work with certain
people.

As a developer I'm not going to work closely with someone I don't like.

I guess my message would be: Sometimes developers just aren't into you and
your ideas. Perhaps you need to try and understand them more.

~~~
jsavimbi
> As a developer I'm not going to work closely with someone I don't like.

I'd be interested in knowing how many non-technical people actually consider
this issue prior to recruiting a developer to work on a project. Is it
obscured because of supply/demand/leverage or is it the case that non-
technical people aren't exposed to the personalities of seasoned developers?

------
Tyrannosaurs
To take what a lot of people are saying a little further - having the idea
isn't enough, they need to be asking what do they bring to the project in
terms of execution.

Do they have sales, marketing or account management experience? Knowledge of
the particular market the product might operate in? Experience setting up and
or running a company? An understanding of process change and implementation of
supporting services or whatever else is relevant?

You need to sell not just your idea but also yourselves.

Developers can have ideas but there are a bunch of things we're either not
good at, don't get experience of or don't enjoy. If you really want to appeal
to a developer then tell them how you can fill that gap.

And please, make it a real gap, not one you've got based on some stereotype
which may or may not apply to the person you're speaking to.

------
evo_9
I think it's the presumptuous nature of stating one is an 'idea guy' and all
the connotations that sort of naturally follow from there... aka, we poor
developers lack some special creativity gene or something. Not a good way to
start a business relationship.

Case in point - my business partners needed a developer and when I met them
for the first time they presented themselves as experienced business men in
their niche - sort of 'vertical market experts' as another poster termed it.
At no point did either claim they were 'idea guys' - instead taking a more
humble approach that they had this idea they wanted to build and would like to
hear my thoughts on it. I knew I could work with them because they weren't
making such grandiose, ego filled statements from the get go.

------
joeyespo
Well said. There are some excellent points that I tend to leave out, like
opportunity cost and the importance of marketing and promotion for the product
to really take off.

This is a good reminder to explain these, since it better puts the idea guys
in the dev's shoes.

------
freshfunk
To some degree both ideas and developers have become commodities. One doesn't
need an MBA to come up with an idea and most people can learn some basic
levels of programming.

I think the real value in both lines of expertise is execution.

In the MBAs case, it's not about how many different ideas they can come up
with. It's whether they can distinguish which 1-3 ideas that a company must
execute on in order to be successful before they run out of money, the
competition beats them and/or reach the greatest market potential. Time and
money is finite.. very finite.

In the developers case, can they execute quickly and still architect a
scalable system, build for flexibility, pick the right technologies/platforms
to use.

------
phamilton
I agree with the article, but one thing makes me wonder. Initially one reason
that developers are hesitant is because the difficulty of the project is
underestimated. Layer, the author says to do it yourself, it isn't too
difficult. This seems to be a bit of a contradiction. While I understand that
easy is a relative term and agree that learning to code isn't too difficult,
some may take that suggestion to mean that " if I can learn how to do it, your
skills can't beer worth that much." Not everyone will think that, but some
will. But I guess that's another clear warning sign not to work with them.

------
longlistener
"Idea Guys" make me laugh. Theres the old sayings about "10% inspiration and
90% perspiration", "the devil is in the details", etc are usually ignored by
the idea guy, they think they get away with just spouting a few ideas and be
done.

Ideas are cheap, theres a billion of them and 99% of them have major problems.
Theres basically no such thing as a successful idea guy; theres project
managers, business development people, developers, money people, etc and lots
of them have ideas. Start working on business plan, raising money, building
relationships, get in and figure out the subtle details of those ideas.

------
rstocker99
You know what would get me excited? A post that advertised, "Domain expert
with deep understanding of high value business problem and strong selling
skills looking for technical cofounder". Ring me up when that guy posts.

~~~
ataggart
As one of the (apparently rare) programmers-sans-ideas, I look forward to such
a post.

------
areya2005
I'm interested to see what you think about coming on board as a co-founder if
you believe in the idea. I believe I'm an "idea" guy, but definitely don't
undervalue a developer's skills or time, hence why I'm beginning to learn as
well.

From reading the article, it seems that you think that developers don't get
compensated accordingly, and that's your main concern. If co-founders, for the
most part, no one gets paid unless everyone works their role, plus more, which
includes a lot of non-technical things that the "idea" guy would need to take
responsibility for.

~~~
parfe
I get caught in a conversation with an "idea guy" about once a month. The
situation boils down to:

1) The guy had an idea 2) He wants me to do all the work implementing it 3) He
will begrudgingly share half the profits with me.

I've started filing people away quickly into two categories. "Idea Guys" think
they've done half the work coming up with an idea. I ignore these people. They
don't have answers to any questions I ask because they haven't thought their
idea farther than "The next Facebook!"

"Business Guys", I suppose I will call them, are much rarer. They want to
create a business and happen to have an idea to start with. They've already
done research into the market, they know who the competitors are, why this
idea would succeed, what they need out of me, what other positions they need
filled and already talked to others who have started businesses to get some
guidance.

I am happily working with a business guy right now. It was his idea, and he's
done plenty of work before we even got together.

I recommend attending Startup Weekend if you want to meet some business people
and see the difference between my two categories. Great experience for about
$100.

<http://startupweekend.org/>

------
marknutter
I have a great idea for a song, but I just need someone musically inclined to
write and perform it. I'd be willing to give them 10% of the earnings when it
hits number 1 on the billboard charts.

~~~
raganwald
You're joking, but if Quincy Jones says that to Rod Temperton, you can bet
there's a number one song coming out of this :-)

Of course, Quincy was a successful trumpeter and band leader before becoming a
musical "idea guy" :-)

------
kayhi
I find it interesting how often this happens in the space of internet start-
ups.

I have a background in biochemistry and we don't have 'idea guys' coming
around saying "hey, how about curing cancer?".

------
MatthewB
This is why if you're really dedicated to your idea, just learn how to code.
It sounds very ominous to a non-hacker to just "learn coding," but it makes
everything else easier.

Also, once you show other hackers that you are willing to do anything and you
actually build the beginnings of a product, they will be much more likely to
join you because they see your perseverance. This is what I did/am doing.

------
bradhe
How many times is the same blog post going to get written? I feel like this is
the same 1000 words I read a few days ago on the same subject.

------
rcavezza
I personally think you are an "idea guy" until you finally pursue your first
startup, then your perspective changes when you see the actual process.

I like how customer development is helping idea guys prove their worth. If
more "idea guys" would take a few extra initial steps towards social proof,
traction, etc... they would get much more respective from potential
cofounders.

------
mgkimsal
The basic naming used is somewhat insulting - it's basically indicating that
developers don't have ideas.

~~~
turoczy
I took that title as the question that everyone asks. It's unfortunate, but
it's true. "I'm just an idea guy; do you know any developers?" is the
platitude of the startup scene, tech or otherwise.

~~~
mgkimsal
I don't disagree it's a common refrain, but still rubs me the wrong way all
the same. If you're the idea guy and you want 'just' a developer, go put some
bids on elance and run with it (and yea, there's some good devs on elance but
they're overshadowed by the rest).

------
whtswthelogin
Your ability to sell your business plan to a bank or VC and get funding, thus
paying your developer/programmer hourly wages, is a good test of how well you
will run the company.

------
code_duck
The other parts are hard - getting and making best use of contacts, marketing,
scheming - and 'idea people' often tend to be better that than developers.

------
forkandwait
Why doesn't he team up with the Winklevoss twins? I am sure the can find some
smart but naive undergrad programmer who can code up their ideas and let them
keep all the money. (Sorry about the sarcasm.... couldn't resist....)

------
iphoneedbot
Seems like Idea Guy, Developer Guy, Designer Guy, Business Guy MatchMaking
Service is yet to be solved/filled.

