
DHS weighs major change to H-1B foreign tech worker visa program - nullspace
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/white-house/article192336839.html
======
rtpg
I really wish that someone would do the right thing and fix H-1B by attaching
the visa to the person, not the job/employer.

That would help fix sooo many of the objections to this program. But perhaps
most importantly it would mean people on this visa would not be indentured
servants , with the possibility of visa revocation hanging over them.

~~~
Someone1234
That would be a huge improvement.

Frankly the whole original point of H-1B was to bring in awesome people and
encourage them to stay if they showed they brought enough value.

It should, as you said, be attached to the person with a fixed term (10
years?), then at the end of the term there should be a "job interview"-like
process where it is determined if this person has brought enough value. If
they succeed hand them a Green Card.

Employers should still help them get the initial H-1B to show they have a job
and that their credentials are credible. But after that the employee alone
should hold the H-1B and be allowed to jump ship if they're unfairly treated
or poorly compensated (after all the point of H-1B was never to get CHEAP
labour, it was to get GOOD labour).

The fixed term also gives them more personal security, without the threat of
being kicked out with little notice.

~~~
briandear
H1B was never created as a path to immigration. It was always designed around
a single purpose: temporarily filling a shortage for a specific position until
a qualified American could be found.

Read the regulations. This idea of H1 as a path to a green card is just a
fraudulent use of that visa. I am not opposed to people getting green cards —
I am opposed to the idea that the H1B is some kind of back door to permanent
residency.

If you want to immigrate, get the proper visa.

~~~
neeleshs
May be I don't quite understand this - a "proper" employment based immigrant
visa is one of [https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-
visas/immigrat...](https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-
visas/immigrate/employment-based-immigrant-visas.html). Which is what most H1B
folks apply for. Not sure how H1b is a backdoor for permanent residency.

Is your point that immigrant visa takes however long it takes (>10 years for
Indians), and if one is already here on H1b, they should not expect H1b to be
indefinitely extended until immigration visa is approved?

For pretty much all countries other than India, there are no practical issues,
since they get permanent residence well before their H1b expires.

The problem is magnified for Indians to the extent that their lives are
basically in suspended animation for several years

------
mankash666
This is absurd. People on H1-B pay taxes like Americans - i.e Social security,
Medicare, State, federal, sales, property...

They're, however, not eligible for ANY of the social safety net they subsidize
America for, (no social security, unemployment, Medicare, etc). They're
overwhelmingly peaceful, law abiding residents with higher education, most
earning in the top 5%.

Abuse of the system is not by the recipients, but the companies enabling the
abuse - punish the companies, not the innocent, tax paying, peaceful, law
abiding residents who don't wake up every morning saying "Today, I want to
replace an American job and suppress some wages, dream FUCKING LIFE".

If this law does pass, I believe those being asked to leave should sue the US
for repayment of Social security and Medicare taxes paid - after all they're
non resident aliens and should be taxed as such. Ludicrous restrictions like
not being allowed open their own businesses, killing any chance of monetizing
a side hustle is another opportunity cost that the govt. cannot compensate for
- and it may even be illegal, after all bringing an idea to life is free
speech!

Most of all, if this is squarely an anti-India policy, India should return the
favor in kind and add tariffs to American businesses & individuals benefiting
from trading with India. A page from Trump's own playbook is the only answer
that'll get through to him.

------
dirkdk
Some background, this is regarding the intermediate status once you have maxed
out your 2 H1b visas for 3 years, and have applied for a green card. There are
queues per country, with the one for India being the longest at 12 year (1).

Not allowing green card petitioners to stick around will hit hundred of
thousands of foreigners that are almost certain eligible for a green card, but
just have the bad luck of being stuck in a queue. They will have to leave the
USA and many will abandon their green card efforts.

I'm sure a lot of employers will not like this, so the chance of this
happening would seem slim. However with the current government one never
knows.

1\. [https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/nri/visa-and-
immigratio...](https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/nri/visa-and-
immigration/indians-applying-for-green-card-have-12-year-waiting-
list/articleshow/59543350.cms)

~~~
BurningFrog
The real problem is the absurdly long processing time for these green card
applications.

------
chrisper
This is exactly why I left the US after I graduated. Being on H1B is such a
huge gamble these days.

Now I am living in Europe, making good money, and living happily without
having to worry about crap like this.

~~~
brazzledazzle
While this is anecdotal it does worry me that we invest (as a society, in the
general sense) in educating people in the US and then don’t do enough to keep
them here. It should be easy to obtain a permanent work visa after graduating.
You’d need controls like perhaps a minimum degree earned, minimum number of
credits earned/years in school and approved institutions but it seems
feasible. It would do a lot to retain people that not only we’ve invested in,
but who (hopefully) have had a chance to integrate culturally at a young age
and formed friendships and connections that will help anchor them.

~~~
jotm
I like to believe that's the plan - get them to US, teach them, force them
back home. Truly doing the world a service, Team America!

~~~
votepaunchy
Foreign students pay higher costs than even out-of-state students. They’re not
mooching off the system.

------
MollyR
I'm not a fan of the program, after what happened in Disney.
[https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/last-task-after-
layoff...](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/last-task-after-layoff-at-
disney-train-foreign-replacements.html)

It really soured me on the whole program.

~~~
dirkdk
yeah an obvious way to improve the program is to require the applicant to have
much more added value than the average American worker. I would argue that
salary is the best but still a very poor indicator. What about fields where
the average salary is low like agriculture or areas like North Dakota where
the cost of living is low and therefore salaries are low? I think the USCIS
should start to calculate these numbers per industry and geographical area

~~~
frankchn
The Department of Labor does (here is one for Software Developers in the Bay
Area:
[http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesQuickResults.aspx?area=36084...](http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesQuickResults.aspx?area=36084&code=15-1133&year=18&source=1))
and requires that H1B applicants be paid at or above market rate for a given
job code and level.

------
petilon
It's a hardened belief that jobs are a zero-sum game — and from this arises
the idea that every skilled immigrant takes away a job from a U.S. worker.
This isn't true. More skilled, educated workers will actually add to the
economy — and grow the economy.

More: [http://journal.dedasys.com/2014/12/29/people-places-and-
jobs...](http://journal.dedasys.com/2014/12/29/people-places-and-jobs/)

------
justboxing
> The administration is specifically looking at whether it can reinterpret the
> "may grant" language of the American Competitiveness in the 21st Century Act
> to stop making the extentions. The act currently allows the administration
> to extend the H-1B visas for thousands of immigrants, predominantly Indian
> immigrants, beyond the allowed two three-year terms if a green card is
> pending.

They might as well do away with the H1-B program all together.

Not all H1B visas are granted for multi-year expirations. Many are granted for
6 or 9 months, and then the employer finds out that they need the person for
longer and apply for extension.

Also, the Green Card is tied to employment, so if you stop working for an
employer because your H1B expired and DHS refuses to renew it because of this
new rule (if it goes into effect) then the person has to go to the beginning
of the line / process to apply for the Green Card.

I understand that H1B is a non-immigrant visa, but if this change goes into
effect, most people won't even apply for the H1B because it would make no
sense. Probably what the Trump administration wants in the first place.

~~~
pandaman
Employment Based Green Card is for the _future_ worker. The proper way it's
supposed to work is that, when hiring for non-temporary positions, you go
straight for the EBGC for the foreign worker. Who, of course, is not working
for you yet so he gets his GC for the future job. And it's the way it worked
before H1 program has been introduced in 1990.

What happens now is that people are hired in the H1B status, which is, by
definition, a status for temporary worker. And then the vast majority of them
suddenly realize that the job is not temporary (wow, surprise!) and they need
to be in a permanent status to do this job, nobody else can (here is the proof
that we tried to find somebody and failed, honestly!). So they need to go
through adjustment of status (AOS) process to change their "temporary worker"
status to the "permanent resident" one. Of course, while the process is going,
the worker is in a vulnerable position. On one hand, he or she just claimed
that they have been in the wrong status (by requesting it to be adjusted) so
their temporary status became even more temporary, so to say. On the other,
the EBGC has not been granted yet so the worker remains in the state of,
essentially, temporary suspended deportation. For the great benefit of the
employer, of course.

Don't you find this strange that so many companies fail to estimate permanency
of their jobs? Don't you think they might be doing this intentionally in order
to exploit the AOS process?

------
aoeuhtns
As an immigrant on H1B, if it wasn't for the quality of work and people here
in the valley, I'd definitely look to go elsewhere with my skills because of
this incessant existential risk to our life in this country. This
administration really stresses immigrants like me.

Like, are we staying here or are we not... can we plan to buy a house or
not... should we plan our kids education here or elsewhere... should we save
money here or elsewhere...

Pfft. Not sure if I'd have made the same decision going back 4 years. Friends
who chased professional opportunities in Europe, Canada seem to have their
visa stuff figured out. But over here, the rules just keep changing.

~~~
SeoxyS
For what it's worth, as a fellow immigrant on a work visa (O-1 here… wasn't
eligible for H-1B), the stress around a visa status is nothing new. It's been
a constant struggle since I moved to the USA in 2009; and all 8 years of Obama
were pretty bad too. Trump might be bad, but the immigrant struggles are
nothing new, and won't change regardless of whether the administration is blue
or red.

~~~
aoeuhtns
I guess so... but headline-grabbing news around immigration does seem to pop
up more. And then I have to dive into that and figure out if this applies to
us or not.

Definitely leaving a bad taste. Some amount of "lock-in" period to laws so
that people can plan their lives better would definitely help. But hey... I'm
no lawmaker.

------
ratbr
Remains to be seen how this impacts the US universities. Part of the incentive
for the international students to choose the US over other countries for
higher studies is because there are some seriously great professional
opportunities after the studies if you can immigrate. For example, our
industry is centered in the US, the US is truly a super power in research, the
US mindset (startups, relatively merit-driven systems) etc compared to other
developed western countries.

If there is no clear path to immigration, and if high quality education
becomes relatively easily available (see: western universities setting up
centers in the east), that can dry up the desire to choose a US based
university I think.

------
immgrnt
I'm an H1B visa holder, I think this is a step in the right direction.
American Competitiveness in the 21st Century Act - should have never existed.
It allows H1B visas to be extended beyond 6 years. No one should be forced to
remain on abusive H1B visa for more than 6+ years of their life. It hurts
everyone expect the SV tech giants.

~~~
frankchn
No one is being forced to remain on H1B visas for any length of time, you can
always quit and leave any time.

This affects individuals who have green card applications pending and are
being granted 1-year extensions while their applications are pending due to a
country-based quota system and thus backlog.

The only way this would not affect these individuals is if they remove the
quota and backlog and grant green cards immediately, but it doesn't sound like
the Administration is planning to do that with the talk of "self-deportation"
and all.

Instead, they just plan to stop the 1-year renewal and effectively kick these
individuals out of the country, even if they like their current status and
have been waiting for a decade for a green card.

I fail to see how this is a step in the right direction for these workers.

~~~
immgrnt
> No one is being forced to remain on H1B visas for any length of time, you
> can always quit and leave any time

I'm taking the abuse for a better life for my family.

>This affects individuals who have a green card application pending and are
being granted 1-year extensions while their application is pending due to a
country-based quota system and thus backlog.

The wait time is somewhere between half a century and three and a half
centuries [1]

The Tech companies or the attorneys never tell their employees about this long
wait time. Instead they just lie it being 5-to-10 years. It happened to me, I
realised my turn will never come up only after waiting 10 years in the line.

[1] [https://www.cato.org/blog/no-one-knows-how-long-legal-
immigr...](https://www.cato.org/blog/no-one-knows-how-long-legal-immigrants-
will-have-wait)

~~~
frankchn
I am guessing you are an Indian national currently on a H1B visa (given that
you are apparently on an H1B visa and have been in the green card queue for 10
years).

If this comes to pass, you will either (a) be transferred to another country
by your company if they like you enough or (b) lose your job and get kicked
out of the US unceremoniously. How is this better for you or your family?

If you dislike the your job and the H1B program, you can leave right now on
your own terms, rather than wait for the Administration to enact new policies
to kick you out.

~~~
immgrnt
> How is this better for you

Standing in a line for 10 years, and then realizing there is no line. I wish
no one else have to go through what I'm going through

~~~
frankchn
Sure, if there is comprehensive immigration reform that removes the queue for
Indian-born applicants. Doesn't sound like that is what the current
Administration is planning though.

I think at least some people on H1B like their jobs and company (and vice
versa) even if the wait for a green card is currently indeterminate, and won't
be too happy to see this happen.

> I wish no one else have to go through what I'm going through

So you think this is a good idea even though your family and you will likely
be negatively affected by it if it happens? I assume the only reason that your
family and you are still on an H1B is because, on balance, it is better to be
in the US than somewhere else, despite you "taking the abuse".

------
vichu83
Indian government is really corrupt and don't have any self respect. India
should ban all American companies in Indian soil pushing Indians entrepreneurs
down. Companies like Coke, Pepsi, KFC, McDonnell, Starbucks, Google,
Microsoft, Amazon etc and away lot more should be banned to operate in India
and Indian entrepreneurship should be promoted. if India does that, I ll any
day go back to India as a proud Indian. Since India is corrupt and has no
unity to stand up against American imperialism, I have to fight here to go up.
This is ridiculous. As top 15% of this country benefit from me, I have to take
stones from bottom 5% percent of losers who does't blame them for their
position and hit on colored people to feel good about themselves.

------
throwaway_45
This is not going to be a popular opinion. My opinion has kind of changed on
H1B people. I have talked to a bunch of these folks and they were hating on
other immigrants. Some of the people from South American countries are
basically are coming here so they don't get killed.

Most of the H1Bs could get a job in their country and at least have some
safety. Everyone is just trying to better their lives.

India Graduates vastly more people than america. Even if only 10% of them are
any good that is a massive number of good people. I am not sayings only 10%
are any good its just a number. American companies should just go over there
if they want.

Did you know you can get perm residency in Canada and its not nearly as hard.
Why hasn't Canada surpassed the US for tech jobs?

~~~
freeone3000
Lower population, essentially.

Vancouver, Montreal, and Waterloo are major tech cities. There's cutting-edge
research paired with major companies and univerisites. You might have heard of
a few small companies such as "shopify", "500px", or "kik". Canada is 6% tech.

But there's a bit of ramp-up delay. Canada has nearly the population of
California. There's a practical limit to how fast growth can take place. There
are also other factors, such as weather (it's -26C in Montreal today), and
salary (you will earn less as a canadian permanent resident than you will on a
H1B in the states).

~~~
uiri
It isn't lower population. Canadian culture has a bad case of tall poppy
syndrome. I'm Canadian and the jobs in the US simply pay 50% more (before
taking into account things like the exchange rate or taxes) than jobs in
Canada do. Employers don't want to hire Silicon Valley level talent. If they
did, they would pay to match. Canada's economy and policies actively encourage
brain drain.

------
damnyou
This will only affect Indians and maybe Chinese. It's time to stop pretending
the Trump administration isn't racist to the core.

~~~
TheCoelacanth
I don't know why you are being downvoted. This is essentially accurate. There
may be a few other countries affected like the Philippines but no
predominately white countries will be affected because their green card
waiting lists are short enough that people from those countries can get a
green card before the original six years expires.

------
tech_geek
Just for computation sake, there are more than a million tech workers waiting
for the GC as per this article. They have been here over a decade, and been in
the tech industry. So even if you take a conservative number, the saving each
one would have made over the decade would be around 100k. So we are talking
around a 100 billion dollars in saving which would go back to India or other
countries if these workers were deported by expiring the h1b, insteading of
spending it in the US. Do the americans want that?

~~~
fooker
100k seems extremely conservative. It is not that difficult to get to a
million in a decade with proper investments.

------
LorenPechtel
While the H1-B program needs a lot of reform this isn't it. This is an attempt
to get a quick change by throwing out a lot of people waiting for green cards
rather than addressing the true issue of a lot of those visas being for
cheaper workers rather than rare talent.

It's a good thing for America to bring in the brightest workers. It's not a
good thing when American jobs are given to cheaper foreign workers. Disney is
merely the tip of the iceberg, a case where the company goofed up and didn't
put a secrecy clause in the agreement.

I rather like bhickey's suggestion of basing it on salary.

I also would like to see a change to contract law--allow someone to go before
a judge and ask that a secrecy clause be struck as not in the public interest.
This would only apply when the actions being protected appear to be basically
illegal activity even if it might be within the letter of the law. (Being
required to train foreign replacements certainly skirts the intent of the H1-B
as it's obvious there are suitable Americans.)

------
strangeloops85
This is explicitly racist: it will primarily only apply to Indians on H-1B
seeking permanent residency, some of whom wait 10-15 years for their green
cards. I would say that Indian-Americans working with the Trump administration
with any decency should resign in protest of such actions, but I'm not sure
they have a sense of self-respect to begin with.

~~~
halamadrid
What if this is fake news?

Once it becomes law you can ask for people with decency to resign.

------
neeleshs
63 points, 77 comments, and 2 hours ago. This post is relegated to 3rd page
already by HN. That's an interesting algorithm

------
legalstruggle
my understanding : Abuse: Many companies bring in H1b with minimum wage and
replace existing Americans doing the same job and qualified enough. i had this
experience with my colleage american who expresed his frustration of me
replacing him. He has masters with 6 years experience. where as i have
bachelors with 3 years experinece. My company brought me here with min wage
required for h1b. This is strictly taking american jobs.

Rule: While i am qualified enough to get another job where they could not find
an american i would apply. So in the end its the companies that are carrying
these cheap labor tricks. We as H1b dont know what thier interviewing and
rejecting process for an american. If we are offered a job we take it.

How should these rule be made and how to fine companies that replace
americans. how to identify skilled labor.

I dont agree that there are few americans with IT knowledge. In my past 10
years experience i have seen many with good knowledge and highly qualified.
With my company going there and replacing them just because we quote less.

Sorry but i am frank. I am still on h1b renewal with awaiting GC pending. ( i
lost hope of getting GC). SO folks dont blame people/ Just blame the system
and companies who pocket profit keepig us in limbo. But be ready to face the
consequence. Because we all said to our visa councellor that we will return
back to our home country during our visa interview.

------
bitL
Hey, please come to US to be a slave for 3 years, then get off my lawn once
you'd like to be promoted into a free citizen! Your only value is that your
value is lower!

------
qaq
Hmm are there many large tech companies left that do not have dev. offices
outside of US? The place I work at has r&d offices in Germany, Ireland, India
in addition to US. So if this goes through people can shift to working from
whatever non-us office they like. The only effect on US is that tax revenue
from salaries will go to Ireland, Germany, India.

------
cinquemb
I wonder how/if academia will be forced to pay more for talent as well, I know
many labs where people have been for years on h1b's...

The growing protectionism policies by governments, will make the global market
for skilled labor more lucrative as companies and organizations will have to
pay more for talent (and to keep it).

------
tehwebguy
Not sure if this is a good move but hopefully this will increase scrutiny on
this $40B / year nightmare.

Aside from the valid CBP responsibilities DHS has due to absorbing that
agency, I would estimate that 100% of their resources are wasted doing
nothing.

------
cmurf
This administration is such a clown act. H1B's bad/unnecessary. H2B's
good/necessary.

I think it's obvious the idea is to be protectionist with tech jobs, making
those people more inclined to vote for party/people who have enacted that
protectionism. Meanwhile at the low end of the scale, competition is good to
keep low end wages suppressed. It's protecting classism.

Here's an example of a local career placement service with thousands of
qualified workers already in the county, and yet a certain politician snags 70
visas for cooks and maids.

[http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/358793-trump-
wins...](http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/358793-trump-wins-visas-
to-hire-70-foreign-workers-at-mar-a-lago)

------
Alfredo123
Trump's H1B motivations are purely racist and both political parties are
extremely racist towards Asians hands down.

The idea is to force Chinese and Indians to go back because there are the only
two groups get affected as Green card queue for them is over 30 years now (if
they apply today).

Just like minimum wage or other policies that have unintended implications
this will harm US tech scene and marginally benefit India and China but it is
the bigger loss for humanity.

