
Chinese Tech Companies’ Dirty Secret [video] - kercker
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/23/opinion/chinese-tech-sexism.html
======
smallnamespace
Am I the only person who sees the perhaps inherent conflict between the
liberal impulse for multiculturalism and its vision of racial and gender
equality, in the sense that _a liberal, Western perspective on gender and race
is not a culturally neutral perspective_?

As a Chinese-American, I feel whipsawed when on the one hand, well-meaning
generally liberal people make lofty paeans about how we should respect other
cultures, but then turn right around and judge those same cultures and find
them unworthy for not adhering to liberal Western cultural norms.

In this case, the position is even more tenuous, because a substantial portion
of Western society does _not_ fully agree with liberal norms for gender
equality. This is basically exporting the West's own culture wars, fought
since the 60s, to other societies.

There are of course tensions between the genders and sexes in China, like in
any other society, but it's interesting to read the entire op-ed and not find
an attempt to actually ask Chinese people what they think about the issue (the
author notwithstanding), just a string of accusations with the unspoken
presumption that 'if it feels wrong to us right-minded people, then it must be
wrong'.

To be completely blunt, paternalism is very deeply embedded in Chinese
society, and its roots go back a couple thousand years to Confucianism. I
don't see anyone seriously acknowledging or discussing that fact, nor the
major changes that have happened since the 50s (often under an explicitly
Communist ideology, where the only allowable conflict is between the classes).

TL;DR - We respect all cultures and viewpoints, except all those which we
judge wrong and sexist.

~~~
ahelwer
The general feminist perspective (which I find fairly sensible) is to avoid
engaging in overt criticism of other societies and simply "signal boost" the
voices within those societies pushing for increased equality. The author of
this piece, Lijia Zhang, is such a voice.

~~~
Endama
But this is hardly unbiased. You effectively are choosing to feign cultural
superiority by co-opting a native-voice that shares your criticism. Rather
than sharing a non-biased perspective, your hiding your voice behind a native
face. This isn't sincerity in debate, it's cowardice clothed in tolerance.

~~~
ahelwer
There is no such thing as a non-biased perspective, and feminism makes no
claim to avoid bias; it's literally an ideology, with gender equality as one
of its goals. The purpose of the signal-boosting strategy is to avoid
patronizing echoes of "I know better" colonialism, not avoid bias. In this
case we can listen to the many, many women in China who speak of the problems
they face. In no sense are their voices co-opted.

~~~
Endama
I'm arguing that the definition of "gender equality" you are advocating for is
definitely a western one. You can't argue your definition of equality while
trying to feign anti-colonialist attitudes, that's a disingenuous position. I
personally don't take issue with you (or anyone for that matter) arguing for
their own cultural values over another (at least then we are having an honest
discussion). I can't tolerate a position that tries to feign an obviously
western-centric position while virtue-signaling as culturally indifferent.

~~~
ahelwer
Anti-colonialism doesn't require moral relativism. It's as simple as that. If
you want a concrete example of how signal-boosting differs from simple pushing
of Western feminist opinions, the hijab debate is worth looking into. Some
feminists in the hijab-wearing regions of the world see it as a tool of
oppression, others not. That's a debate for them, and not for westerners to
decide.

If there's a vocal contingent of Chinese women pushing for the above-mentioned
patriarchal Confucian values, well... I haven't yet seen it. All the Chinese
women I've yet met (and had the opportunity to speak with on the subject) view
sexism as a real problem, although granted I've only ever met Chinese women
who came to America so selection bias is at play.

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RcouF1uZ4gsC
Here are some other dirty "secrets" about China:

* No free and fair elections.

* No freedom of speech and of the press

* One party rule

* People imprisoned for their political and religious beliefs

* Nobel Peace Prize winner died in Chinese custody

* Freedom of travel can be fairly restrictive, especially if you are trying to leave the countryside

China embraces the open market purely from a utilitarian perspective as to
what will help them become and stay a superpower. There really is no big
commitment to an individual "rights" based foundation for society. Because of
that, it is not surprising that they discriminate against women.

~~~
s2g
> One party rule

pretty well straight up dictatorship now.

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dogruck
It’s not a secret. The general discrepancy — of differing cultural norms — is
also not unique to China.

Amazing how many people fantisize about a globalist utopia, accepting of all
cultures, except the “offensive” cultures.

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powerapple
In China, man pays for everything in a relationship...... and wives manage
family account..

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donald123
Given all the public job postings, how does it become a secret?

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thereare5lights
reminds me of some bay area job postings

~~~
seanmcdirmid
They would be breaking the law if they did. Unlike China, sex discrimination
is illegal in the USA and would be resolved very quickly in court if they
decided to put out a job posting like that (likely with a huge civil
settlement).

~~~
vorg
When I worked in IT, the standard technique Western employers used to practise
discrimination was to use independent recruiters to place job adverts and vet
candidates before they were forwarded to the employer. When the recruiter and
employer had an informal conversation a little later, perhaps over lunch, the
employer would casually let slip that "if the new employee could speak another
language, she would be able to interact easier with prospective clients",
which the recruiter took mental note of before changing the subject.

But perhaps things are different nowadays.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
If jobs ads were as blatant as they were in China, then they would definitely
get sued.

But there are many ways to game the system in rather legally safe ways where
subjective decisions are involved.

~~~
thereare5lights
insidious and subtle discrimination is the name of the game in the US. it's
definitely worse in that it's far harder to fight against.

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thaumasiotes
> companies like Alibaba have published recruitment ads promising applicants
> “beautiful girls” as co-workers, labeling them “late night benefits.” While
> tech companies tout themselves as progressive to the rest of the world,
> these disturbing recruitment strategies show how deeply entrenched
> discrimination against women remains in China.

How is promising that the work environment is full of girls an example of
discrimination _against_ women? If they promised that girls were rare, that
would presumably be an improvement?

~~~
Sangermaine
>How is promising that the work environment is full of girls an example of
discrimination against women?

If, as the author asserts, the women are being hired merely as rewards for the
male workers while not really being given actual opportunities at their work.

~~~
thaumasiotes
Being hired into a do-nothing job is usually considered a perk.

