

Christine: The World's Most Modular PC Design - bado
http://www.razerzone.com/christine

======
ChuckMcM
And this is what you get when you have a designer "imagine" what a PC would
look like.

One of the nice things about the Mac Pro was that it was _engineered_ to look
good, as opposed to being "designed" to look good. (or not depending on your
design tastes).

The modern PC has three things you have to manage when engineering a 'new'
one, heat management from both the CPUs and the GPUs, signals management which
can carry exceptionally high frequency signals across "busses" that act as
transmission lines, and modularity.

This vision has the latter covered but introduces challenges that make keeping
the other two in check probably impossible.

First (and perhaps foremost) a modern PC generates a lot of heat, and managing
that heat is central to any design, like having a place to eat and a place to
sleep are essential to any home design. The components will generate up to
1200W of heat (equivalent to a space heater or hair blow-dryer set on 'high')
Which needs to be removed from the components fast enough to prevent them from
reaching their critical temperature.

Next up, modern PCs use PCIe channels that clock at 5Ghz with low voltage
differential signaling. These signals absolutely do _not_ like going through
connectors, so systems design need to minimize connector transitions to 1 or
zero. The renders for this design seems to show components plugging into a
back plane (minimum two connectors). Also at 5Ghz, the wavelength of these
signals is 6 cm. That means that bits going through a wire that is longer than
6cm long start taking a "long time" (relative to the signal) to arrive. Now
PCI has some mechanisms in the protocol to support this but it starts
resulting in additional bus transactions and signals. That increases latency
in a way that can turn your awesome GPU into something decidedly unawesome in
terms of its performance. It isn't the GPUs fault, its getting the data too
and from the CPU which is the problem. There is a reason the 'video' slot on
PCs is the one right next to the processor :-). This problem is made even more
manifest in memory systems. If you get a chance to look at the circuit board
traces for memory DIMMs some time notice how some are really squiggly and some
are straight. The trick is that they are all _exactly_ the same length so that
data that starts coming out of the chip arrives at the same time at the CPU
and vice versa. Fully Buffered DIMMs (FBDIMMs) were a shot at 'fixing' this
and few people bought them. The chips ran hotter and performance was worse,
lose lose to most consumers.

All that said, I love the _concept_ of modularity in a PC but at the moment I
can't see how to get that without sacrificing a lot of performance. That is
one of the reasons I was so impressed with Apple's effort. It gets a lot of
things right.

~~~
zwieback
You're right but ignoring cost I'd rather have something that looks like this
than a Mac but there's no accounting for taste.

Regarding the PCIe comment: people are already using PCIe over cable as an
expansion technology. We use lots of these, for example:
[http://www.onestopsystems.com/pcie_over_cable_3810.php](http://www.onestopsystems.com/pcie_over_cable_3810.php)

Works in a pinch although it's of course not going to have the same
performance as a connectorless solution.

~~~
WiseWeasel
The point is that GPUs need to be physically near CPUs and RAM. You can do all
kinds of external PCI expansion, including Thunderbolt cables several meters
long, but you'd never attach a GPU to that other end.

~~~
dippyskoodlez
People are running GPU's through thunderbolt on Macbook Airs. TB Actually has
provisions for doing this, but they are severely underdeveloped.

~~~
ChuckMcM
As Wise points out the challenge is the bandwidth. You can run video cards
over USB (see DisplayLink) but the update rates suffer from being constrained
to 480 megabits/sec. So if you are paying a lot of money for something, you
probably want commensurate performance.

------
incision
Reminds me of the BMW/Thermaltake collaboration from 2009. [0]

About 10 years ago I thought I wanted something like this.

Over the years I realized that my meticulously researched, highly expandable
PC builds were rarely being expanded or upgraded. By the time I really wanted,
much less needed something new there was little if anything worth salvaging.

This creation looks like a great way to spend even more on building/upgrading
something that will be relatively big, slow, power hungry / hot in 3 years all
the same.

0:
[http://dl.maximumpc.com/galleries/level10/l10beauty_lw.jpg](http://dl.maximumpc.com/galleries/level10/l10beauty_lw.jpg)

~~~
GhotiFish
Well. I don't think sata is going anywhere at the very least. A chassis that
supports expandable and swappable drives wouldn't go amiss.

~~~
cambion
Easily handled. SATA backplanes with modular drive slots are available and
they fit into two or three or four 5.25" slots. Many enthusiast and server
chassis already have the option for SATA backplanes as well.

------
TrainedMonkey
This could be future of personal computing, however I am afraid that
prohibitive cost would kill this. I would expect markup of $100-$150 per
module, unless it is a very simple module that needs no cooling.

I am also not sure about cooling system. Little isolated compartment with
nearly no holes for cooling beefy GPU or CPU with overclocking sounds a bit
farfetched. They mention that each individual module would have it's own water
cooling system. I think it is madness, much more practical and economical to
transfer heat to the central tower and have large radiator with quiet fans
there.

I built few custom rigs with water cooling, and whole point of water cooling
is to transfer heat to the large radiator.

~~~
al2o3cr
Hard to tell from the snazzy-but-vague renderings, but it looks like the
intent is that every module has "in" and "out" bushings for water-cooling -
the larger circles on either side of the electrical connections - with the
large radiator in the bottom.

Would make "hot-plugging" more like "wet-plugging", one suspects...

~~~
TrainedMonkey
They specifically mentioned self contained. While there are quick
connect/disconnect water cooling connectors [1] those do leak a bit of liquid
each use.

[1] [http://www.xtremerigs.net/2013/07/02/2013-quick-
disconnect-r...](http://www.xtremerigs.net/2013/07/02/2013-quick-disconnect-
roundup/)

~~~
gibybo
I don't think it's actually self contained in the sense that the pump, fans,
and radiator are also duplicated in every module. The would be a terrible
waste of resources and the modules don't look like they have any room for the
radiator (which would need to be exposed to the outside air to work).

~~~
ATLobotomy
I could see a pump being included in each module. In a modular design such as
this the flow rate through each waterblock would need to be guaranteed with
many different possible restrictions.

Additionally, if the pumps were run serially, it could add some redundancy to
the cooling loop (especially benefitial since each unit's pump might not have
the same MTBF)

------
ninjakeyboard
The problem is that you have another hand in the middle. Intel makes the CPU
and then razr wraps it up and sells it to you at a markup. Nvidia makes a gpu
and then someone throws it on a board for razr and then razr wraps it up and
sells it to you at a markup. Why wouldn't I just buy it on a pci-e board for
less because there will be competitors. Anyone here can build a PC - it's not
hard. But that is the problem that this is trying to solve - that it is hard.

"For more than 30 years, only the most hardcore enthusiasts were able to take
advantage of PC customizability. Convoluted hardware made it insane for the
average person: knowing what does what, what works with what, and how to
connect the pieces."

So this is for the guy that wants to build his PC but not actually learn how
to build it. It's like radio shack xmods - you can put a new engine in your
car to make you feel like you're working on a car but you're not working on a
car. You're working on a toy that looks like a car.

~~~
seniorsassycat
I wouldn't be surprised if many of the Christine modules were adapters for
standard interfaces. The graphics card module could just be a mounting bracket
with a PCIE slot and would fit most consumer GPU's. Similarly the S/Hdd
modules would have power and sata attachment points. Those cases could be sold
for less than 100$, and if Razor wouldn't make them I bet a third party would.

~~~
dippyskoodlez
It's water cooled.

------
sdfjkl
Wow, so much extra plastic. And are those compression connectors? Last I've
seen those was in SGI computers, and they were notorious for failing to
contact properly after being exposed for a while (rubbing with a soft cloth
and alcohol seemed to do the trick though).

[http://techpubs.sgi.com/library/dynaweb_docs/hdwr/SGI_EndUse...](http://techpubs.sgi.com/library/dynaweb_docs/hdwr/SGI_EndUser/books/Octane_OG/sgi_html/apb.html)

------
greenyoda
Prior discussion:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7020090](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7020090)

------
Oculus
Wow that's a pretty cool idea. The only issue I see going forward is whether
or not the target market can afford the machine. The biggest pro of
customizing a PC is the price for performance. I'm able to save quite a bit of
$$$ by building my own machine. If the people who don't know how to customize
their own machine are price insensitive they might as well go for something
that requires no effort from them (e.g. Apple products, high end Dell/HP). If
they are in fact price sensitive, I imagine a modular machine such as this
would probably be out of their price point given that every part is
specifically for this one type of PC.

~~~
vonmoltke
The greatest advantage would be partially insulating the owner from platform
changes, though that depends on how Razer implements the generic backplane in
the tower.

For example, lately Intel has been changing CPU sockets and interface chipsets
like I change my underwear. Upgrading the processor requires upgrading the
motherboard, which may trigger a cascade upgrade of other parts. With this
system, it may be possible to upgrade the CPU module (with all bridge chipsets
included) without having to touch any other parts.

Also, you are no longer limited by what a motherboard vendor chooses to put on
their board. No worrying about number of RAM slots, number of USB headers, how
many of each type of PCIe slot they decide to include.

How well it works, and whether it justifies the price, remains to be seen.

~~~
Avitas
>> Oculus: "[...] whether or not the target market can afford the machine."

> vonmoltke: "[...] though that depends on how Razer implements the generic
> backplane in the tower." [...] "Upgrading the processor requires upgrading
> the motherboard, which may trigger a cascade upgrade of other parts."

\-----

The above are the two big items in my mind. Another potentially minor (or
major) issue is how the seals for liquid cooling are made, their durability
and reliability. I am assuming that the pump is located in the backplane and a
quick connect/disconnect type connection is used for liquid connections.

It sure looks cool. It looks like Razer's designers and/or engineers really
liked the look of Thermaltake's Level 10 and wanted to take it in a different
direction. It could also be that these are OEM'ed from the same manufacturer.

------
bogwog
This looks ridiculous. There is no way this design could be practical. You
would be paying so much money just to encapsulate the same exact hardware
components you have now inside of a plastic enclosure with a custom connection
(and a controller for these connections, I'm assuming) and maybe unnecessary
lights, colors, displays, etc. It is a proprietary trap.

Is it cool? Sure. But definitely not practical, efficient in any way, and it
offers nothing more than aesthetics

~~~
dclara
I'm not sure how powerful it is which cannot tell from the looking. If it's
the same powerful as the existing PC, I found All-in-one PC now is less than
$500. So why do we need to have this nice-looking but still heavy machine? If
it's super powerful, then a lot of engineering issues need to be taken care
before how it looks like.

EDIT: I'm sorry, it's fully expandable. But sometimes the OS may not support
the hardware expansion that much or become very low performance.

But anyway, I agree that we should make PC more customizable and more
pluggable if it's doable.

------
danellis
Aren't most PCs modular? I can swap out the drives, expansion cards, memory,
CPU, PSU, etc with standardized alternatives. There must be a better word for
what this is.

~~~
TylerE
No. A standardized PC is componebtized, but not really modular. You can't
install RAM in a hard drive bay. This concept I see as more in line with
traditional stereo systems....you can have many modules, and they all talk to
each other via RCA cables.

------
tinco
Wow.. so in the video they plugin a CPU module. Doesn't the CPU need equal
length parallel lines to the memory? Or is there a serial interface to memory
nowadays?

Crazy idea, I hope it works. Would definitely freshen things up.

~~~
mbell
> Doesn't the CPU need equal length parallel lines to the memory?

Yes, but you could do that within the tower. Maintaining signal integrity
through the connectors and/or propagation delay due to trace length would be
the limiters.

> Or is there a serial interface to memory nowadays?

Not for PC level memory speeds.

> Wow.. so in the video they plugin a CPU module.

All the pictures show "CPU / RAM" in the same module, which makes a lot more
sense to me as an EE.

~~~
vonmoltke
> Yes, but you could do that within the tower. Maintaining signal integrity
> through the connectors and/or propagation delay due to trace length would be
> the limiters.

They can, and probably will, also use signal path equalizers.

~~~
mbell
That would be problematic at best given the clock speed and timing
requirements of DDR3.

~~~
vonmoltke
Maxim claims to have the technology for gigabit signal path equalizers:
[http://pdfserv.maximintegrated.com/en/an/AN996.pdf](http://pdfserv.maximintegrated.com/en/an/AN996.pdf)

~~~
al2o3cr
Those are for a single serial signal - as the note indicates, mostly to
replace very-short-run fiber optics. The challenges with routing DDR4 signals
through connectors, etc are mostly about skew: if any signals are delayed by
anything _approaching_ 1/2 a clock period (~1cm on FR4 board) relative to each
other, everything is fucked.

In addition, some digging on the MAX3800 referenced there indicates that it
has a power consumption of 200 mW, and a "budgetary" price of $6.90 each.
Since a typical DDR interface is 100+ signals, you're looking at spending 20+
W and the price of a midrange PC just on signal integrity, and _that 's_
assuming those chips even do what you want.

There are systems that work like Christine - but they are things like IBM
mainframes that don't suffer from cost constraints.

------
grumblepeet
The inevitable consequence is that you will end up with monsters such as this
[http://www.d1.dion.ne.jp/~r_high/memorial/rocketship.html](http://www.d1.dion.ne.jp/~r_high/memorial/rocketship.html)
RiscPC with pods called "slices". I don't think that the board components were
able to be sliced out, only peripherals.

------
nawitus
What problem is this solving?

~~~
lttlrck
Lack of modularization?

~~~
mburns
Computers are extremely modular already. Plus, you don't need to buy a
proprietary interconnect and case that only one vendor provides.

~~~
bicknergseng
Modular, but not necessarily modular done right. I'd much rather plug and play
than take the time to screw in each component and run wires around and slice
my hands on heat sinks made out of razer blades. If that means we have to go
with a proprietary mb... someones gotta take the first step. I don't see why
this design paradigm couldn't use existing components, like the Level 10
should have been designed.

~~~
dippyskoodlez
For quick and dirty modifications they may not be 'done right', but from an
engineering standpoint there are MANY limitations preventing exotic designs
like this from even being viable, not to mention the cost of proprietary
modules.

------
DonGateley
Viewing that required moving my browser window to my 2560x1600 monitor and
maximizing it. How utterly stupid. I'm coming to hate HTML5. Apparently
rescaling is beyond it's capabilities or beyond those of the designer.

------
pkaye
I'm guessing this is not an engineer designed product. I can see there will be
a lot of technical issues to solve. Also the kind of connectors displayed can
easily cost hundreds of dollars if they are custom made.

------
programminggeek
Gosh that's pretty.

This is the kind of ambition that I feel like is missing from PC's. So much of
the PC business revolves around just cutting cost and not making something
cutting edge. Somehow Razer has managed to build interesting hardware that
pushes the limits in a world where everyone is stuffing off the shelf
components into mostly generic cases.

------
ChikkaChiChi
Assuming that the 'tower' is the motherboard, it better cost the same as a
module, or else this is a non-starter.

------
almosnow
So concepts are now a thing here?

That one sucks btw; imagine this one: a small white aluminum cube with no
visible openings that does everything you will ever need to do in your life,
now that's cool.

