

Schools Out, Forever - avand
http://avandamiri.com/2010/02/17/schools-out-forever.html

======
swombat
Yet another helpful individual mistaking university for some kind of career
training centre...

Universities are not there to get you a career, a high paying job, etc. I'll
grant you that they've been mis-represented to many people, often by greedy
people who wanted to boost the ranks of students to make money (another good
reason why universities shouldn't be for-profit).

There are many purposes served by universities, and one of them may
occasionally, as an added bonus, to help you in landing a great job. But the
primary purposes of universities, and degrees, are:

\- Research/Academic study

\- To train the next generation of researchers/academics

\- To give people who want to study a subject in a formal setting the
opportunity to do so

\- Allow 18-ish teenagers to mature into quasi-adults in an environment,
surrounded by smart people, that will expand their minds and make them better
people.

"Getting you a job" is not, and should not be, an objective of university.
Most jobs should not require a degree, either. The fact that unrelated degrees
are being used as a front-line filtering system is tragic. If universities
themselves are to blame for this failure of perception management, it is
doubly tragic - it may destroy their primary reasons for existence in the end.

~~~
umjames
I'd say universities are to blame. My alma mater's main selling point is its
co-op program. Instead of 4 years of straight classes, you have 5 years total
split up as follows:

\- freshman year as normal

\- the next 3 years are spent with 6 month classes/6 months co-op with some
local company

\- senior year as normal

My alma mater is not alone in this kind of marketing though. How many
commercials do you see (especially during noon and in the late evening) about
going back to school so you can make more money/land a better job?

~~~
fnid2
And a lot of those commercials are for trade schools teaching welding, health
care instrument management (mri, phlebotomy, nuclear)... Not traditional
universities, so the unis, which are much more expensive than those schools,
are really hurting right now. People are going to the University of Phoenix
online to learn vb.net instead of Harvard to learn "computer science".

~~~
ericd
I really doubt Harvard or any of the other top schools are hurting for
applicants. When I was entering school, Harvard and MIT were taking <15% of
their applicants, which leaves quite a bit of wiggle room.

~~~
fnid2
Havard, in this case, is a metaphor for "traditional universities"

~~~
ericd
I realize, could you point to an article about university admissions dropping?
I haven't happened across anything saying that universities are in trouble,
for any reason other than their endowments getting decimated due to the
financial crisis.

~~~
fnid2
Simple as a google search:
[http://www.google.com/search?q=%2B%22declining%20enrollment%...](http://www.google.com/search?q=%2B%22declining%20enrollment%22%20%2Buniversities&hl=en&ned=ca&tab=nw)

------
edave
Thank's Avand, your article is really hip and all. I'd really like to agree
with it, and then go about back behind the school yard and smoke a cigarette
and tell The Man go to hell.

However, I really can't do that.

Let's start with your high school experience. Going to a prep school in Boston
means you (most likely, not assuredly) come from a privileged background. I
went to a high school prep school too, and like you, I wanted to have the "too
cool for school" attitude.

That didn't really happen though, instead of being bored, I got something that
was challenging (athletics, which I sucked at). Yea, it was way cool at the
time to pretend that all those classes I was acing (well almost, shouldn't
have slept through AP Chem as much as I did), didn't matter and that I knew
what I wanted to do as a jock 17 year old. Looking back, I was damned lucky to
have such good classes and not be in some (unfortunately) underfunded public
school. And also, it turns out now that I'm glad someone forced me to take
French, I'm heading to France next month to work with a client. Didn't see
that one coming as a 17 year old either.

Avand, likewise your take on college is quaint. I understand now that you've
been successful with no college degree it's cool to keep rolling with the same
theme of "skoolz lame!" It's actually kinda shame you're so biased though that
you think college is just about increasing the number of facts you know,
otherwise I'd bet you'd do well at the real point of college- giving you the
tools to think about difficult problems in a number of different ways.

But that's cool, I've met plenty of intelligent/motivated/successful people
who didn't go to or complete college (or went all the way and got a PhD).
However, if you really were the intelligent person, motivated person you claim
to be, I don't think you'd be half-assing it just taking night classes and
then writing with such supposed authority on how college is worthless.

Here's what it really comes down to- you seem to be doing well marching to
your own song, Avand, and that's great, keep it up! However, don't confuse
your half-finished experiences as showing that school is worthless and
expensive. You simply don't have any real authority to talk on the subject.

~~~
lionhearted
> Thank's Avand, your article is really hip and all. I'd really like to agree
> with it, and then go about back behind the school yard and smoke a cigarette
> and tell The Man go to hell.

I almost didn't read the post because you made it sound like mindless
rebellion. The tone of discussion was a bit higher than you made it out to be.

> Here's what it really comes down to- you seem to be doing well marching to
> your own song, Avand, and that's great, keep it up!

In all seriousness - can you cut this out? You've got valid and good points,
but adding snark/sarcasm doesn't help them. I've seen more of this lately here
on HN, and I don't think it's a good trend. There's a lot of valid
critique/counterexamples of the author's post, and I'd really enjoy hearing
more of your perspective and others who disagree, but the sarcasm/snark takes
away from the point more than adds.

~~~
Adrock
> In all seriousness - can you cut this out? You've got valid and good points,
> but adding snark/sarcasm doesn't help them.

Maybe I have a tin-ear, but the "keep it up" seemed genuine.

------
abeppu
You know what you can do as a university student in a technical discipline
which can't really be done for free searching the internet? Participate in
real research, guided and mentored by real-life scientists. Do lab-based
classes. Ask questions of your professors. Have deep conversations with your
fellow students and with your lecturers during office hours.

Yeah, if you only want to try to absorb the material in a totally passive way,
and if you would never speak up in class, then you might as well just watch
video lectures on-line and read the books and do stuff on your own. But if you
choose to really take advantage of the university environment, you get a lot
more than just the facts presented in the courses. I'm sure it's possible to
have a career with just your own experiences and self-study. But I don't think
you should be so sure you're better off than a peer who got their degree and
all the various experiences that can come with it.

By the way, I'm not sure whether you think it's the norm for engineers to not
have formal training. Of the seven engineers on my team, all have at least an
undergrad degree in CS or a related field, 3 have PhDs and 1 has a Masters.

~~~
blasdel
What I did as an CS Undergraduate is teach CS classes to other undergraduates.

When I first did it as a sophomore I got credit for developing the labwork &
teaching it for 10 weeks, and got paid as a TA to grade what I assigned. My
~25 students were my classmates in the other sections of the full-time course.

My Junior year I got credit for teaching a 10-week FPGA tutorial to a group of
5 students that were doing it as the 'project' portion of their CS course. My
Senior year I informally helped my professor/coworker develop the robotics
portion of a non-CS class I was taking, and tutored the other students.

~~~
dsspence
^copy and pasted from resume

------
schoolsin
I went to a school that taught me, among other things, how to use apostrophes,
how to make web sites with readable text, how to avoid phrases like "kitchen
of education", and how to make a poll that shows results when I vote instead
of thanking me for voting.

If you're some sort of mindless soulless fuck who equates everything in life
to "will this help me get a job?", then skip school. It won't teach you what
you want to know, and I don't want to be bothered dealing with you.

The questions you ought to be asking:

\- What _don't_ I know yet? What do I not even realize I don't know?

\- Who are the sorts of people I want to spend the rest of my life with? Where
do I feel comfortable?

\- Given the ideas I have, what can I do? How can I combine these with other
ideas to make something extraordinary?

Here's what school gives you that the Internet doesn't. Faces. Instinctive
responses. Chemistry. Nobody knows better than I how easy it is to build a
brand for yourself online. In person, you don't get a brand. You get a person.
You can judge people more accurately, both people who're good at public image
and people who suck at it and would look like shit if you found them
completely at random.

Frankly, Avand, you don't have the credentials to get away with saying shit
like this. Not as confidently as you're saying it. Looking at your resume, I'm
not seeing anything that would stand out particularly if I saw it from an
undergraduate resume. You're not a good writer and you haven't got a good grip
on aesthetics. Do something smart before you start bashing my education.

~~~
tsally
This is the type of post that is contributing to the decline of HN. It's mean
spirited and inflamatory, veiled by a thin layer of actual argument. You
critize the author for a lack of credentials, yet claim that _no one knows
better than you_ how to create a brand online? Let's see your credentials
then, because apparently you are God's gift to earth.

Quite frankly _no one_ had the credentials to write a post like yours. It
doesn't matter if you are right about the article. What a joke.

~~~
drunkpotato
I also don't agree with the tone of the reply; however, I sympathize with his
irritation. I share it. I agree with you that the reply should be re-thought:
one shouldn't post on HN with anger, but with a contribution to the
conversation that is likely to generate intelligent discussion.

Edit: "re-through" to "re-thought"

------
youngian
_School's Out, Forever_. "School is out" contracts to "School's out", with an
apostrophe to indicate the contraction.

I could not bring myself to read an article about education being pointless
that has a grammatical mistake in the title, no less. If you make that mistake
_while slagging on education,_ I simply cannot give your opinions any weight.

~~~
mmt
Your response illustrates an all too common failure of formal education:
holding formalities in greater regard than practical matters.

Language is usage is language. Not only was clarity not hurt, the point of the
title I took away was a reference to the Alice Cooper song lyric, which as
_spoken_ (sung) language, contains no apostrophe.

~~~
youngian
I disagree. Clarity _was_ hurt. This title suggests multiple schools "out",
which doesn't make a lot of sense (did the schools band together to out their
gay friend? Or a corrupt politician?). Yes, obviously I can figure out what he
meant. But there's a jarring half-second of confusion that disrupts my
thinking, slows down my reading, and distracts me from what is being
communicated.

I'm not rabid about grammar - the rules should be a bit malleable, depending
on context. But most grammar exists so that we can understand each other. If
you have poor grammar, I will have a harder time understanding you and we will
have a harder time working together. In fact, I will be less likely to want to
talk to you, because I could instead be talking to people with good grammar,
and when I talk to them I don't have to pause for those cognitive potholes
where I have to puzzle out what they're trying to say.

~~~
mmt
_But there's a jarring half-second of confusion that disrupts my thinking,
slows down my reading, and distracts me from what is being communicated._

I would suggest that it's your literalism (or, perhaps, if not grammar rabies,
then at least excessive focus on it) that's the issue here, not the presence
or absence of a punctuation mark in a transliteration of a song lyric.

The author _may_ be guilty of not being conservative in what he sends, but
your guilt, in not being liberal in what you accept, is, to me, much clearer.

------
impeachgod
I would love to do this, but in my country it is impossible to get a (decent)
job without a degree. How do you get at least an internship as, say, a high
school graduate with mediocre grades and nothing to your name? You show them
your open-source projects? I think HR is technically illiterate and will be
more impressed by any degrees you have.

~~~
nzmsv
Exactly. How do you get that internship as a high school dropout? Thinking
back to high school, I couldn't even get a job at McDonalds (probably deemed
too nerdy for customer service). My parents aren't computer programmers, and
did not know anyone in the field.

I also had a similar attitude for the first half of my university studies. I
figured I could already program quite well, thank you very much, and classes
were a waste of time. So, after failing a bunch of classes, I decided to go
work for a year. Got a job hacking on an awful mess of PHP code.

Then I actually got interested in school. It turns out just because something
is hard doesn't mean it's a waste of time. Hardware is actually interesting,
as is theoretical CS. Now that I want to learn more, I can't get into grad
school because of my too cool for school attitude earlier.

~~~
robryan
Hmm, I had the same problem with those fast food/ supermarket customer service
jobs in my teens. Got to the point where I was like well I wouldn't want one
of these jobs even if they came after me.

I kinda find it funny now that I probably still wouldn't be able to get one of
these lowly paid casual service positions.

I have a mate who takes uni the same way, clearly smart enough to pass
programing classes easy judging by what he's done programming for fun, but
just doesn't seem to care or apply himself enough assuming it will be really
easy.

------
nickpleis
My experience: I'm a college dropout. I have 96 credit hour and am one class
shy of my associates degree. I feel like I did get a lot of value from the
liberal arts portion of my education. I was exposed to a lot of different
ideas and disciplines that I may never have studied in any other setting.

My major was computer science, and that was the rub. I came to college already
somewhat accomplished as a developer. I had published a small shareware game
on one of those value-ware CD's you would pick up at the register at WalMart.
I knew the basics and had already learned some very hard lessons. I suffered
through the introductory course material largely doing independent study
projects (thanks Dr. Forbes!).

My moment of crisis came in a computer org. class. I was really looking
forward to taking this particular class. It was supposed to give me some more
detailed exposure to the hardware side of things. Instead we spent literally
half of the semester counting in different number systems. At that point I had
enough. I wanted to actually solve real problems and do real things.

Thankfully I had my opportunity. I took a job with the local behemoth tech.
company. I was given the opportunity to write a book on basic game programming
(I didn't execute on this very well... I just wasn't responsible enough at 21
to do it properly). That book opened the door to my first real job at a very
small startup. Quickoffice was my first chance to shine, and over the 6 years
I was there I feel like I took full advantage of it. Now I'm an entrepreneur,
and things have gone well so far.

The point being: I never completed my degree, but I do feel like I got what I
needed out of college. I learned how to learn. I learned to appreciate classic
literature and to more completely examine the culture of the world around me.
I became a scientist with a deep understanding of the scientific method. Those
are all invaluable assets to me today.

However, my lack of a degree has not proven to be much of hindrance thus far.
I hope it never is:)

------
biggitybones
If you're an incredibly self-motivated and intelligent person when your 17 or
18 and you are passionate about learning and excelling, then sure, skip
university if that's what you want.

I'd venture to say it's more rare than not to find someone who could
successfully utilize 4 years and $150,000 in an unstructured environment. It's
unfortunate that this is the case, but I just don't think it happens very
often given the emotional maturity of many high school students.

I "did well" in high school because it wasn't difficult to do well by grading
standards. College was when it all clicked and I developed a passion for
learning. Obviously this is my experience, but I see this sort of thing in
those around me (and many that still, even after college, wouldn't know how to
use that money in a truly beneficial manner). University often puts you in the
company of some intelligent individuals in a learning environment, as well as
the opportunity to meet some great mentors that help mature.

------
hoggle
I am a dropout myself and I am doing OK for the moment but I still would
propose to question your own readyness to being so judgemental. I think of
education being something highly individual and complex (e.g. I regard my time
at university very inspiring and influential). Everybody should be able to
'roll their own' in order to achieve ones respective goals - which fortunately
these days is possible for most of us. It is great that you found your very
own hack to tackle the issue but try to stay open to other approaches too -
most importantly try not to make too many generalizations. I know that can be
hard but it could perhaps result in real inner peace.

------
btilly
I suspect his perceived correlation between the quality of the programmer and
lack of education has quite a bit of selection bias.

I have coworkers with and without advanced degrees. There are lots of good and
bad ones in both groups, and I get along with most just fine. But I strongly
suspect that I'd have trouble working with anyone with a chip the size of the
one perched on his shoulder. Which means that he's going to drive away the
good educated people, and confirm his own preconception about quality. And
he's going to create a lot of problems for himself down the road.

As a concrete example of what I am talking about, consider his four man team
story. Given that he posted that with his real name, the engineer who he
didn't like is going to be a burned bridge. Any educated software developer he
knows who reads that will wonder, "What does he think of me?" There go a few
more bridges. Anyone considering hiring him is likely to Google his name. If
they turn up this then any interviewers with an education are likely to be
turned off.

Technology in whatever town you're in tends to be a small community. You wind
up working with the same people over and over again. A knack for making lots
of people dislike you isn't a good thing.

Perhaps in several years he'll learn enough to be able to take that advice.
After suffering for a bit. Kind of like how he has slowly recognized that a
lot of what he refused to learn in school was actually something that is
reasonable to learn.

------
drunkpotato
Some of the things you point out are largely true, in your 20's, if your only
concerns are "getting a job" and making money. However, a good liberal arts
degree confers a number of benefits in many areas of knowledge, and provides a
foundation of education and articulateness that is quite helpful throughout
one's lifetime. There are, of course, many bad liberal arts programs that
confer little of these benefits.

I have a couple of friends who forwent college for similar reasons, and they
did make more money early on. However, as time passes, they find that there is
a pay and advancement ceiling that is lower for them than for their higher
educated coworkers. They are also more fearful of losing the income they have
painstakingly built up, are more rooted in their company, generally have not
saved and don't have a lot of equity (especially with the current housing
market), and don't use their monetary head start to now get the education that
would help them. They then complain to me that they've hit the pay ceiling and
are watching their (always less qualified) over-educated co-workers advance
and make more money for doing less. I am sympathetic but skeptical.

There is also a smugness in posts like these that rub people like me the wrong
way. It is easy when things are going well for you to look around and say
everyone else is doing something wrong. I encourage you to look deeper.

------
s3graham
I did not get much in the way of programming out of my Math/CS degree, other
than socially accepted (encouraged, even) time to fiddle with my own projects.

I did get an clear benefit out of the institution of university, in
socialization and in closed-world long term interaction with other like-
minded, intelligent people.

i.e. Courses were often a waste of time, University was not.

------
kowen
If I were given a chance to do it over, I think I'd beg to be allowed to
unschool for k-12, and then go to university. University was where it started
getting relevant/interesting (to me, anyway).

I'm not knocking education in itself, just... so much time wasted while the
teacher organizes things, disciplines people, and they managed to take
interesting subjects and make them utterly boring.

There are probably great schools out there, but the 7 different schools I went
to were not very inspiring.

------
tom_ilsinszki
Degrees are overrated to some extent. Not all university graduates are
successful, competent and motivated, but there is a correlation.

------
dasil003
It's true that blind faith in the system is not the ideal recipe for success,
however it's also true that being able to buckle down and do something you
don't like or see the purpose of is very useful, especially when you're young.

------
Mz
I homeschooled my kids. Articles like this are fairly popular on homeschool
lists. My two favorite examples of successful people without college degrees
are Bill Gates and Madonna. You clearly don't need a degree to have financial
and career success. However, I have always told my sons that because they are
homeschooled, their best shot at career success is to start their own
business. If you want/need to work for The Man, a degree not only helps but
can be essential (unless you are content being stuck in some entry level job
for all eternity). Also, there are certain careers that require a formal
education (doctor, college professor, etc). So it depends in part on what you
want to do with your life.

------
pmiller2
I think this post's argument really needs to be turned on its head. So _what_
if your degree(s) are irrelevant to the activity that pays your bills. Even if
you count starting from kindergarten, an American of no more than average life
expectancy is going to spend way more years out of school than in school in
his or her life. In other words, no matter what you do, chances are excellent
the years you spent in school will eventually become more or less irrelevant
to the entire rest of your life.

