
Feds searching passenger cell phones at SFO - stochastician
http://blog.sfgate.com/cmcginnis/2017/05/10/feds-searching-passenger-cell-phones-at-sfo/
======
strictnein
> The ACLU has become much more active in trying to protect the rights of
> travelers during the Trump era

> in 2016, “the number of people asked to hand over their cell phones and
> passwords by Customs and Border Protection agents increased almost threefold
> over the year before.”

I mean, it's great and all that the ACLU is working on this, but the repeated
attempts to tie this all to Trump is becoming kind of maddening. Pretty soon
all this stuff will start being referred to as "Trump-era security measures"
in the press and most will forget who actually started most of it (the last
two presidents).

~~~
Retric
I don't actually mind _targeted_ cellphone checking _at borders,_ but
mindlessly ramping it up is a very bad sign.

~~~
snarf21
Not being a jerk, but why do you not mind? I don't break any laws and I mind
enormously.

~~~
SN76477
Yes! If they do not know what you are looking for, they shouldnt be looking.

------
anc84
SEO marketing content originally from [http://travel](http://travel)
skills.com/2017/05/06/us-customs-phone-search/ , nothing worth reading or
visiting really. It's shallow and purely meant to attract clicks and links.

Original source of actual content is [https://news.artnet.com/art-world/aclu-
artist-aaron-gach-956...](https://news.artnet.com/art-world/aclu-artist-aaron-
gach-956336)

------
NathanKP
> Gach resisted, but finally gave in when he was told that if he didn’t, CBP
> would keep his phone for an indefinite period.

The sad thing is if this happened to me I'd have no problems with just letting
them have the phone and get myself a new one. In fact the company I work for
would probably let me expense the new phone because they'd be happy I didn't
give away the passcode to a phone that has company emails on it that contain
private info.

So this ends up punishing those who can't afford to just dispose of a phone.
Disgusting. Privacy should be a right, not something that you have to ask
yourself if you can afford.

~~~
jackhack
I hate to break this to you, but the feds are snooping on your company
emails/texts/phone calls anyway and filing them away forever in a nice big
data center in Utah.

And a passcode isn't much in the way of protection, except from the airport
rent-a-cops and maybe the first tier of Homeland Security. Physical possession
of a device guarantees access, if a three-letter-agency wants it. The security
theatre of last year w/r/t the iPhone access was to lull us into believing the
CIA/FBI/NSA could not access a 'locked' phone. Counterintelligence. It has
been accessible all this time.

Finally, corporate espionage on behalf of governments is a thing we'll read
about in a decade or so. The stories aren't ready to break just yet.

~~~
DennisP
I wouldn't unlock my phone, because it has Google Authenticator helping to
secure financial accounts.

If they want to go through enough effort to unlock it, fine. But at least I'll
have a chance of resetting authentication before they get to it.

~~~
ketralnis
Off-topic but what banks offer 2fa that isn't solely SMS based? I've looked
but one but it's hard to figure out without already being a customer

~~~
et-al
In the US, only 2-3 (USAA, HSBC, First Tech Federal Credit Union):
[https://twofactorauth.org/#banking](https://twofactorauth.org/#banking)

------
tyingq
Apple/Google: Help us out here. Put some container tech on the phones and have
it driven by the entry of a "regular password" and a "duress password".

Have the "duress password" bring up a container with plausible faked call,
text, browser, camera, etc, history.

Oh, and allow for user defined number of container/password pairs, for when
the TSA asks for both passwords.

~~~
finnn
Have the duress password also activate the various sensors on the device and
start shipping data to the internet. TSA agent's face, everything that's said,
etc.

~~~
DennisP
This is a cool idea, but it would also give them a way to tell that they're
looking at the duress account.

~~~
finnn
How so? Presumably there would be nothing in the UI to indicate that it's
recording anything, and the data would be stored outside of the restricted
container.

~~~
thfuran
Perhaps not an _easy_ way, but any data transmission from your phone is
detectable with external sensors.

------
0xCMP
I would like to add the obvious that it has nothing to do with Trump. Things
like this were being done and added all the time under Bush and Obama.

Simple proof: Why did the EFF and others already have extensive documentation
on how to travel through airports securely? Why did people mention crossing
borders with wiped phones/laptops?

~~~
ItendToDisagree
Why do you feel the need to post that? The line about the ACLU becoming much
more active? Can you disagree that they have become much more active on
various issues during the new presidency?

~~~
0xCMP
I felt the need to post this to ensure we were all aware of our current biases
that just because Trump is in office these things are bad and deserve
attention.

I believe the ACLU is great and I've contributed for years before Trump. And
that is my subtle point: Trump isn't what makes these things bad or important.
They're important on their own. The ACLU should have been donated to before
Trump because the issues they are fighting for are not new under Trump, even
if they may have more issues to protect under Trump. This is not one of them.
And we as readers need to recognize that "...in Trump's America" is nonsense
added to boost page numbers because it has been our America for a long time
already.

So, therefore, I do not disagree ACLU has been more active. In fact, the
question is why weren't they so active before? Personally, I don't think
that's a great question either since I'm not sure a case exactly like this
happened before so it's moot and if it did I'm almost certain they would have
acted on it. But would the press have picked it up like it did? Would it say
"...in [Obama's|Bush's] America" at the end? I doubt it.

------
bhhaskin
More and more it seems like we are slipping towards a dystopia. Inch by inch
our privacy rights are slowly being striped away. Not just by governments but
by corporations, and once they are gone it is next to impossible to get them
back.

~~~
rublev
We _are_ in a dystopia, it's just far more boring and disjointed than what we
read about.

~~~
criddell
You think life is more unpleasant now than 100, 1000, or 10000 years ago? I
don't think I'd want to live in any of those eras if given the choice.

~~~
FullMtlAlcoholc
Life wasn't unpleasant before modern technology.

You might as well say life was in black and white before the invention of the
color photograph. Fun for me sometimes consisted of just a stick and a rock or
a stick and my dog. The first industrial revolution initially lowered the
quality of life and contentment for workers

It'd take you less than a month to adapt if there were no time machine.

~~~
criddell
Compared to today, I'd say life was indeed unpleasant. Just being free of
Polio makes a gigantic difference.

The opportunities I have for travel, education, healthcare, access to arts,
and other experiences are far greater than my ancestors had. The opportunities
my daughters have are so much greater than even my grandmother had. I wouldn't
give any of it up.

~~~
FullMtlAlcoholc
> The opportunities I have for travel, education, healthcare, access to arts,
> and other experiences are far greater than my ancestors had. The
> opportunities my daughters have are so much greater than even my grandmother
> had. I wouldn't give any of it up.

Within a month you'd be over it. It's surprising how well humans adapt to
their situation

~~~
criddell
So I presume you are doing fine living in today's dystopia.

~~~
FullMtlAlcoholc
Even if you had polio, most people find a way to still find joy in life after
coming to grips with the disease. We had a president who had polio.

Stephen Hawking's debilitating illness doesn't stop him. He still finds joy in
life and has a happy, successful marriage in addition to being the world's
preeminent physicist.

This may sound weird, but I kind of dreamed of living in a dystopia. I read of
a lot of Gibson and Stephenson as a kid. Utopias like heaven frankly sounds
kind of boring...no challenges or struggles to overcome or face.

~~~
criddell
A utopia doesn't mean there are no struggles. If you want to be a great guitar
player or a master carpenter, you don't magically get those abilities.

If I could afford to be retired today, I could easily fill the rest of my days
working on things that I want to work on. I'd love to learn more about
cooking, learn another language, take up carpentry, learn how to ride a trials
bike, get stronger, learn to play an instrument, work towards a degree in
mathematics, volunteer in my community, get my amateur radio license, travel
with my wife, work on my marksmanship skills, learn watchmaking, build
electronics projects, join a bowling league, and on and on. I'm very fortunate
in that I love my job, but it does take up most of my time.

------
_jal
Prepare your phone before coming through. Backup, wipe and set the password to
"I am a panty-sniffing thug". Bonus points for filling it with nothing but
articles about law enforcement overreach and pictures of pigs.

Encourage everyone you know to do similar, or whatever they're comfortable
with. Make being a trouble-maker a badge of honor.

If you don't fight somehow, you are accepting it.

~~~
diminoten
Honestly, I do accept it, because I still believe they're trying to do the
right thing. I know it's easy to shit on law enforcement, but I still
fundamentally believe that they're a force of good.

Edit: I'd love to discuss this more with all of you, but I've been told by HN
moderation that I am a negative force on this website and discussions like
these are why. I hope some day there'll be a place we can talk about this kind
of thing civilly, but it's not here and it's not today, unfortunately.

~~~
mikeash
The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. I would argue that resisting
evil actions by good people is _more_ noble than resisting evil actions by
evil people, because you stand a better chance of changing things when they
don't intend to be evil.

I've never had my phone searched, but if they tried, I'd say, "Good luck
cracking my password. Can I go now?"

~~~
diminoten
Brave words typed onto an Internet forum.

I don't think this is an "evil action" to begin with.

~~~
mikeash
What's "brave" about it? I'm a programmer making a good salary, and all I have
to lose is my phone. I can buy another one if they decide to threaten me with
seizure.

If you don't think it's an evil action, then why are you phrasing it as "I
still believe they're trying to do the right thing"? I interpret that as "I
think they're doing the wrong thing, but I don't mind because they think it's
the right thing." If it's not evil then why not defend the action on its own
merits, rather than appealing to the fundamental goodness of the organization?

~~~
diminoten
Because it's perceived as evil, and I didn't want to litigate that and be a
force of negativity on HN.

~~~
maxerickson
Thinking it is appropriate to search phones is at least a solid argument.
People might loudly disagree or downvote, but it's a coherent opinion.

The idea that trying to do the right thing can justify something is specious
nonsense.

~~~
diminoten
It's specious nonsense to try to do the right thing? You can't possibly mean
that, right?

~~~
jtmcmc
It's specious nonsense to justify things by saying they are trying to do the
right thing.

------
Hasknewbie
I am aware that this was also happening in previous administrations and is
slowly getting worse, but as a European I can only describe this as
"communist-like", and wonder what the US citizenry, of all people, have come
to that they accept such things? (Clearly this not some form of elaborate
investigation, and they're only harrassing random passengers.)

We are now in a Bizzaro world where we're safer "in our letters and effects"
when travelling through the airports of Communist-controlled China than in the
US ones...

~~~
white-flame
It's fear mongering that has normal citizens agreeing with overly aggressive
"enforcement", and forgetting about what rights are.

------
nafizh
This is specially terrifying for non-citizens or visa holders. The border
police has no obligation to let you in if you decide to not give them the
password.

------
jedberg
Does anyone have detailed instructions on how to make a full backup of my
iPhone such that when I restore it, it will be exactly like it was? Every time
I do a backup/restore, things seem to get lost. It doesn't seem to be a
complete backup.

~~~
rbritton
As far as I know, the closest you can get to that is an encrypted backup via
iTunes. There are still things omitted from the backup, though. Developers
themselves can prevent certain files from being backed up:
[https://developer.apple.com/library/content/qa/qa1719/_index...](https://developer.apple.com/library/content/qa/qa1719/_index.html)

~~~
jedberg
See, that's the problem. If it isn't a _full_ backup then it's basically
useless, because now I don't even know what's missing. Maybe it's something I
really need urgently but only once a month, so it might take me a while to
even figure out it's gone.

And what about say my soft tokens for 2FA? Will those survive the backup? I'm
kind of afraid to find out because if they don't then it's a huge pain to
reset all of those.

I wish backing up a phone was as easy as backing up a computer. :(

~~~
mi100hael
Just buy a burner when you travel overseas. Chances are your home carrier
would gouge you anyway.

~~~
jedberg
The problem is here are the things I use my phone for when I travel:

\- email

\- social media

\- maps

\- podcasts

\- pictures

\- soft tokens for 2fa

The first few can be handled by a burner, but for pictures I want my nice
phone (I guess I could carry a separate camera) but I have no idea how to deal
with the 2fa tokens.

------
Kinnard
Can we have private airports, cooperatively owned and operated, and ban
governments from them???

~~~
cmurf
Is this a stupid question or a serious one?

Privately owned and operated runways do exist. Airports tend to be publicly
funded because they're expensive, so pretty much from the outset those who
want an airport go to the government to get one. The regulations that apply
depend on what kind of flights happen. If they're exclusively FAR 91 and non-
charter then it's a minimal regulatory environment. When there are charters,
air taxi, or air carrier flights, it becomes increasingly government
regulated.

And no you really can't ban the sovereign.

~~~
FireBeyond
And yet, fly as a private passenger on your own jet at a public airport and
you're also just as able to bypass almost all of these checks, too. And while
a chartered Citation X isn't as likely to be as capable of destruction as a
laden Boeing, it could sure do or carry some threat.

------
joncp
Even if I wipe my phone, I worry that they'll plug it into some rootkit-on-
demand Cellebrite device. What if I remove one of the data pins from the USB
port so that it only works as a charger? Is that enough to protect the phone
from one of those Cellebrite boxes?

------
schoen
We wrote a guide about this:

[https://www.eff.org/wp/digital-privacy-us-
border-2017](https://www.eff.org/wp/digital-privacy-us-border-2017)

However, the news is not necessarily that encouraging.

------
joshuaheard
I would never hand over my phone or passwords at the border. The only reason
customs can search you at the border is for any smuggling or immigration
issue. Since no rational person would smuggle something digital on their
phone, when they could transfer it over the cloud without physical possession,
there is simply no reason for them to search your phone without a warrant.

If they threaten to take your phone, threaten to sue them for trespass and to
go to the media.

------
utternerd
Not that I agree, but Canada has been doing it for years:
[https://www.priv.gc.ca/en/privacy-topics/public-safety-
and-l...](https://www.priv.gc.ca/en/privacy-topics/public-safety-and-law-
enforcement/your-privacy-at-airports-and-borders/#toc3)

------
bschwindHN
All of you with your "clever" workarounds don't get it. It's you vs. someone
who has been questioning people all day. Do you really think the agent will
just go "Oh you don't have a device, you're good to go!" or "This phone looks
like it's never been used, nothing suspicious here!"?

That's going to raise suspicions and make your life much harder. Unfortunately
there's not much you can do to fight it except at the legislative level. It's
a shitty situation, but telling people to do these "tricks" is going to make
their lives even shittier.

------
throw2016
This is how totalitarianism looks. Don't try to brush it aside, hand wave it
away or become an apologist.

People have been horrified by stories of the secret police in infamous regimes
ruffling through people's diaries to find out what they wrote. You can't
express moral disgust at that and live with this.

This is the exact same thing. No one has any business with your phone or your
personal life.

------
rietta
I would not be okay with this. If faced with this situation, I personally
would be compelled to refuse even if they seize my powered off fully encrypted
iPhone. I would then have to obtain an attorney to fight the seizure on the
principle of the matter. This would be so even if I had just bought the phone
an hour before and had nothing custom on it at all.

------
efuest
Assuming they are using some OoTB software like Cellebrite. It would be
interesting to use a vulnerability in one of Cellebrite's file parsers and
infect their machine. Would a mass dump of their collected data cause any
public outcry?

------
themark
I wonder if you can just stuff phone in carry-on and claim to have lost it.

~~~
finnn
I wonder if they stop at the first phone they find. I picked up 10 cheap
android phones at $5 each from the grocery store recently, would carry one of
those in my pocket, put the "real" phone in a more difficult to find location.

------
nielsbot
Maybe just erase your phone then and there? Or set it to erase after 10 failed
password attempts? Wonder how bad they'd make it for you in retaliation.

------
patmcguire
What are they going to find in that time period, with the person there? Are
they just fishing? What's even the point from their side?

~~~
twothamendment
They can find it later. How long does it take to copy the entire contents of a
phone and hand it back to you?

~~~
patmcguire
Ah, I misread the article as they had to search in their presence.

------
bozoUser
I heard on the radio today that in Feb there were 2000 instances of the phone
search which is appalling.

------
enraged_camel
With all due respect, I think your grasp of American politics is quite weak.
The POTUS has immense power, not just in theory (e.g. the ability to single-
handedly launch nukes and basically end the world) but also in practice.

For one, he or she can nominate Supreme Court judges. This alone is _huge_ ,
considering the SC is the final arbiter in the most important conflicts in the
nation.

Aside from that, he or she can issue Executive Orders, which "have significant
influence over the internal affairs of government, deciding how and to what
degree legislation will be enforced, dealing with emergencies, waging wars,
and in general fine-tuning policy choices in the implementation of broad
statutes."[1]

The POTUS can also veto legislation passed by Congress. Historically, Congress
has been able to override these vetoes only 7% of the time[2], which means the
POTUS has a serious amount of influence in the direction the country goes in
as well.

And of course, he or she is also the Commander in Chief of the world's most
powerful military, and the country's supreme representative in foreign
affairs.

Bottom line: POTUS is much more than a "punching bag."

[1][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_order_(United_States...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_order_\(United_States\))

[2][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veto#United_States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veto#United_States)

~~~
dang
> _With all due respect, I think your grasp of American politics is quite
> weak._

Personal swipes, which this is, aren't allowed in HN comments.

We detached this subthread from
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14317152](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14317152)
and marked it off-topic.

------
hnaparst
The most basic function of Customs is to know what is coming into the country.
Customs has always had the right to search whatever and whoever they want.

~~~
jstanley
If they're searching information, they really need to be putting multi-minute
delays on all cross-border internet communications while they search the
content.

~~~
praneshp
More like multi hour if you want to block from tarmac to past-customs. It
takes at least an hour to clear customs in SFO (For a non American)

