
Civet coffee: why it's time to cut the crap - ValentineC
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/wordofmouth/2013/sep/13/civet-coffee-cut-the-crap
======
peterwwillis
This is one of those moments where I learn something I had no idea about, and
am very glad someone wrote the Guardian story, and that someone posted it
here.

I bought the civet coffee off ThinkGeek for a coffee snob friend of mine years
ago. She said it tasted watery and bland, but thanked me for the thoughtful
novelty anyway. Now I realize I not only gave her crappy coffee, it was crappy
coffee created through abusing animals for a stupid gimmick. I feel like an
asshole.

~~~
javajosh
Don't beat yourself up too badly. How were you supposed to know? It's hard for
an individual consumer to understand the full impact of his purchase decision
in the aggregate and over long periods of time. As a rule, consume what you
want more of in the world. (The exception are naturally rate-limited goods,
like fish or wild animal droppings, or absolutely limited goods, like fossil
fuels.)

Consider this: if civet coffee had not ever become popular, then your purchase
would have been fine - if anything, you could feel good about yourself since
you just injected a tiny bit of cash into a poor area of the world.

~~~
abalone
_> How were you supposed to know?_

Not to get all philosophical over a story on poo coffee, but this is one of
the downsides to free markets. They hide information on the conditions of
production unless compelled to by regulation or consumer demand, neither of
which typically happen without an awareness campaign (such as this exposé).
All you see is marketing and a price.

~~~
frogpelt
And not to reciprocate, but free markets are much more likely to be
transparent than any other.

When a free market realizes consumers demand transparency, transparency
becomes an option in the market. Not the only option, but one of the many.

How would that transparency work in a market that is absolutely controlled by
regulation and government? Fine, until that government itself ceased to be
transparent.

ASIDE: There are no absolutely controlled markets or absolutely free markets
and never will be. Capitalism will always seep out around the edges and
regulation will always be necessary.

~~~
abalone
_> free markets are much more likely to be transparent than any other._

That's wishful thinking contradicted by oodles of historical experience.
Random example: the unregulated market for medicine in the U.S. prior to the
20th century.

The problem is consumers are not organized by default. Markets typically
reflect individual preferences just fine, but individuals don't have the
resources to fact-check propaganda, research and verify conditions of
production, etc. This aspect of "consumer demand" requires collective
organization to express effectively.

A buying group is one example. But these things take investments of their own
to start up, which is why you mostly find them among business customers. One
of the reasons the corporate group health insurance market is so much better
than the individual one.

For the everyman, the government is a mechanism by which they can express
collective demand. And it's why food and medicine safety, to pick one
fundamental, has never been effectively secured for the general public absent
government regulation.

~~~
dnautics
you don't suppose the danger of the market for medicine in the US prior to the
20th century had anything to do with the fact that _chemistry didn 't exist as
a discipline_? Just what do you expect them to have regulated?

The free market is quite good at providing consumers information, but often
only if the consumers demand it. For a few decades now, consumers have
gradually become more ethical in their consumption choices, and the markets
are reflecting that. It's a long road and there are certainly many, many
places where things can be improved. By contrast, consider that there is a
_lot_ of demand for certain values, like transparency, honesty, not sexually
harassing your underlings, in government, and exactly how responsive do you
suppose it's been?

The faulty assumption is that government will somehow be 'the betters' of the
general public. But every indication of the narcissistic type that gets
elected, and the petty bureaucratic authoritarian that is unelected, suggests
that those advancement in government may not necessarily select for those
traits you want. Neither does capitalism (as it's structured today), but at
least consumers have a direct option to opt-out of unethical things done with
their money, which they do not for government.

To pick another "fundamental", why do you suppose lightbulbs don't explode,
and various and sundry electrical equipment doesn't electrocute you in the US?
It's because regulation is being done by a private, nonprofit entity (the
underwriter's laboratories) which goes through and certifies equipment for
consumption. A good example of the free market working quite well to ensure
safety, beyond even what the consumer might expect, with far less government
interference.

~~~
abalone
_> For a few decades now, consumers have gradually become more ethical in
their consumption choices_

Look at the history behind that. It came out of the 60s. Massive popular
organization against the system. A gigantic non-market force that effected
greater awareness of environmental destruction, the conditions of production
and so forth.

Consumers didn't just wake up one day with new preferences. They rioted
against the market system.

P.S. You forgot about OSHA federal electrical safety regulations.

~~~
dnautics
OSHA is only for the workplace and dates to 1970. UL goes back to the turn of
the previous century. I don't know for sure, but I'd bet most electrical
standards for OSHA defer to the UL standard.

~~~
abalone
OSHA just federalized it. Electrical safety has been regulated at the state
and local level since practically the dawn of electricity.

Even the trade organization of electrical manufacturers disagrees with you.
Quoting the National Electric Code, "the NEC takes on real significance when
it is adopted into law by states and local jurisdictions."

Source: [http://www.nema.org/Technical/FieldReps/Pages/National-
Elect...](http://www.nema.org/Technical/FieldReps/Pages/National-Electrical-
Code.aspx)

------
manarth
One hypothesis: what if (genuine) civet coffee is so good, because the civets'
nose smells out the very _best_ coffee cherries, and only eats the best?
Therefore, if it's crapped out the arse of a civet, it was a _very_ good bean.

Given that many animals have a superior sense of smell to humans, this
hypothesis seems reasonable - civets could smell out the best coffee, and
given the choice, who wouldn't want to eat the best?

If this is the case, then the whole mass-production/feeding-civits-in-cages is
absolutely pointless, because it does away with the civets' selection process.
Which might explain why some people describe their purchase as watery and
bland.

~~~
agilord
> "Which might explain why some people describe their purchase as watery and
> bland."

This is true.

The other part of the explanation is that many people just don't appreciate
the coffee that is anything different than what they are used too. Just watch
someone from the US in Europe drinking an espresso, or the other way around.
People have different opinions based on their personal habits, and saying it
is "watered down" should mean nothing without context and references.

~~~
crdoconnor
I don't think that's it. I drank a cup of civet coffee in bali which was
watery and bland. I also bought beans from a producer in medan who went on a
lot about the scam that is most wild civet coffee. That one was rich and
chocolatey.

------
audreyt
A viable alternative may be in-vitro fermentation:
[http://www.chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/national/national-
news/20...](http://www.chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/national/national-
news/2013/02/19/370638/Taiwan-to.htm)

There was a marketing campaign earlier this year in Taiwan around the animal-
cruelty-free process.

~~~
throwaway9848
No need. People need to just stop drinking this mediocre and overpriced
product and learn how to make perfectly serviceable high grade arabicas taste
good. I doubt most people that purchase the coffee even know what Gold Cup
standards are.

[http://www.scae.com/scae-gold-cup-programme/how-the-gold-
cup...](http://www.scae.com/scae-gold-cup-programme/how-the-gold-cup-
works.html)

Kopi Luwak is - outside of novelty purposes - a ridiculous status symbol for
rich idiots, like using ground-up, ineffective rhino horn to treat erectile
disfunction.

~~~
sliverstorm
Got any good sources for learning the craft? I have assembled the basics over
the past couple years, and have probably reached the point where my devices
are no longer the limiting factor.

~~~
throwaway9848
A thermometer, an adjustable burr grinder, and either one of: a high quality
drip brewer, a hario, or a french press. I prefer the hario for ease of
cleanup, personally, but some people consider non-french press brewed coffee
to be heresy.

I think it's cool to try to roast your own once or twice, but roasters cost a
ton and cowboy coffee (roasting in an open pot over heat) produces a ton of
smoke & chaff. Mostly it made me appreciate the skill involved in roasting :)

The big thing is to mind the temperature of the water (and use good water),
making sure you're using freshly ground whole bean coffee, the amount of
grinds vs water, and the quality/freshness of the coffee beans. There's a ton
of good advice online, I hope you find something that works well for you (and
that my humble advice is useful)!

~~~
ceejayoz
A friend of mine roasted coffee beans in an air pop popcorn maker.

------
gfodor
I just got back from Bali and tried this stuff. The place I went to of course
said little about the surely terrible environment the animals are in -- they
had a few at the place but they were probably just there for the tourists to
see.

Anyway, the coffee isn't anything great. Yet invariably many of the tourists
around me were raving about it, I'm sure not in small part due to the focus on
it and the high price it demands. It reminds me a lot of the phenomenon of
shark fin soup in Asia -- the soup is mediocre at best, but because of its
high price people (in my view) pretend to think it tastes incredible.

~~~
jonny_eh
They're not pretending, that's power of suggestion. They believe it.

~~~
gfodor
Good point!

------
rotskoff
This probably isn't any different from consuming anything that contains animal
products from a country with flexible regulation on farming conditions. The
description doesn't strike me as being any different from the conditions
described for chickens in the U.S.

Markets that suddenly emerge often have strange consequences. The demand for
quinoa and acai berries, for example, have had serious economic and
environment effects in South America.

There's not too much that's unique about this case, other than product. Poor
conditions for animals and exploitation appear to be the norm.

~~~
3minus1
The fact that this is being done to wild animals seems especially cruel.

------
sigil
I tried Luwak coffee last summer in Munduk, a mountain village in north Bali.
Honestly: it's nothing special. My girlfriend (a former barista) vetoed it
after she saw a caged Luwak, and the huge piles of drying coffee-bean-laden
turds that were clearly not the result of gathering. And, obviously, pretty
gross.

[http://m.imgur.com/VNiVTo6](http://m.imgur.com/VNiVTo6)

[http://m.imgur.com/EIMZbW6](http://m.imgur.com/EIMZbW6)

~~~
sliverstorm
_Honestly: it 's nothing special._

Like many other food-as-status-symbols. It's not about how good it is, but how
rare and difficult to procure.

~~~
einhverfr
Indeed, status symbols generally depend on one criteria, namely the ratio of
marketing to availability. Lots of marketing and little availability makes it
a status symbol. Less availability and little marketing makes it a novelty.

See for example red spinels vs rubies. These aren't food but they show the
same dynamic at work. The most famous "rubies" in the world are actually red
spinels, but because they aren't marketed heavily they are seen as second
class gems.

------
aaron695
Reminds me of the South Park 'Whale Whores' episode.

A lot of people who probably are happily eating chicken getting incensed by
another culture doing something the same to a slightly different creature.

~~~
nilved
What if you don't eat chicken either?

------
larsbot
Instead of buying civet coffee, roast your own beans. I have never tasted
coffee as good as the stuff I have roasted myself. All you need is an old
popcorn maker. Buy green beans from Sweet Maria's or somewhere else online.
It's cheap, easy to do, and the results are amazing.

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Nate75Sanders
First I ever heard of this stuff was from Olin Shivers' page:

[http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/shivers/martinez.html](http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/shivers/martinez.html)

his general page:

[http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/shivers/](http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/shivers/)

I don't think it's changed much in about 15 years

------
ghshephard
If it makes any of you feel better (from an ethical perspective), I've heard
that a large portion of the "Civet" coffee that is marketed has never seen the
digestive tract of that nocturnal animal, and is simply regional coffee beans
branded at a much higher price.

It's the coffee equivalent of Kobe Beef (which, if you've purchased in the
United States, probably wasn't actually from the Tajima breed of Hyogo wagyu
cattle in the Hyogo Prefecture)

------
siliconc0w
Someone should start a consumer protection type business which offers
certification with varying degrees of statistical significance to slap on your
products to prove it isn't bullshit. Then we legally mandate you either get
the seal or have to put "THIS PRODUCT MAY BE LYING ABOUT ITS CLAIMS" on the
packaging. Then it'll be interesting to see how long until the process is
corrupted and the certification becomes meaningless.

~~~
jrockway
_Then it 'll be interesting to see how long until the process is corrupted and
the certification becomes meaningless._

"Certified Organic"

------
rdl
It is interesting how luxury goods are very amenable to this kind of campaign
-- the "conflict diamond" thing from a few years ago seemed a lot more
effective than any number of regular anti animal cruelty or sweatshop labor
campaigns. Anti-fur and anti foie gras has also been much more effective than
anti-meat.

------
cfontes
I've been to one of those farms when I was in Indonesia. They only showed me a
single one of those animals in a big cage, but I can be sure there were more
from the amount of coffee avaliable to sell in their "Rural store"

I've bought one cup of it for U$5,00 and it's stupid. The coffee tastes wierd
and seeing that animal in that cage was enought to make me leave the place
with a felling that I was doing something really wrong paying for that coffee.

I try hard to never buy this or any other kind of super cool variants of cheap
things. Especially if they are from a 3rd world country because ( I am from
one ) I know that there is nothing in those countries with power enought to
stop any wrong doing. In those places governement and agencies just don't care
about animal safety, public health and so on.

------
benatkin
In the short term I think this article is going to have the opposite effect of
what's intended. It seems inevitable that everyone must know about Civet
Coffee before resources can be gathered to protect the animals regardless of
the demand. Better sooner rather than later.

~~~
stephengillie
I don't know that the article will increase demand. I know my personal demand
for this coffee has gone from middling (I hadn't heard about it before the
article) to zero on hearing that it's _made from the poop of an animal_ that
can't digest coffee beans.

I don't know which I find more disgustingly appalling -- that people are
_choosing_ to, _paying very much_ to drink "pooped-bean coffee" \-- or that
the animals which play a crucial part of this process are so cruelly treated.
But at least the latter can be compartmentalized with the inhumane conditions
of our other food animals.

~~~
Dylan16807
Ever had cheese or alcohol? Now _that_ is poop. The part you should be
emphasizing is "can't digest". These beans aren't poop as in digested
material, they're taking a ride _in_ poop. It's not really worse than the
standard method of mixing poop into the dirt where plants are grown.

------
mrleinad
Aren't we ingenious little fuckers? Always finding new ways to give the finger
to other species..

------
fatjokes
Copy and pasted from the article:

" I was the one who started it all ... I first read a description of kopi
luwak buried in a short paragraph in a 1981 copy of National Geographic
Magazine."

So... he didn't exactly start it. He just popularized it to the affluent
western audience.

~~~
gcb1
your point?

------
raintrees
This is a bit thematic, but maybe we could get Jellyfish to eat the coffee
bean cherries? Two problems, one answer?

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6347557](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6347557)

------
codeulike
They need a free-range or wild standard I guess

~~~
stephengillie
The chemical and mechanical processes of the luwak digestive system could be
duplicated. I don't know (and don't want to know) the effect of gut flora on
the beans.

------
anigbrowl
Talk is cheap. I kept expecting to read how he was donating some % of his
consulting fees/shared profit from the promotion of this luxury into
alleviating the problem, but apparently that's not on the cards.

~~~
chengiz
He's "raising awareness", of course.

------
wanderr
There's a local startup here that produces coffee supposedly with the same
enzymes produced by the cats. I think this might be them:
[http://coffeeprimero.com/](http://coffeeprimero.com/) I've tried it before
and I have to say, it's not bad...but not really for coffee lovers either. At
least if the bitterness is at all part of what you enjoy about coffee, this
stuff is pretty bland and boring. The fact that they only sell it ground is
another hint that it's not really meant for coffee lovers.

------
gcb0
I sense someone just got a deal with a farm that can actually ship a ton per
year of the real stuff and is now working his way into a certification
program.

Certified civete coffee anyone?

------
jsilence
The leading vietnamese coffee company Trung Nguyen analysed the natural
process and was able to reproduce it without animals. I tasted both and was
not able to tell the difference. Great coffee, lower cost, no animals harmed.
[http://www.trung-nguyen-online.com/about-legendee-
coffee.php](http://www.trung-nguyen-online.com/about-legendee-coffee.php)

------
mfieldhouse
Disgusting how there's scumbags out there who jump at the chance to make some
quick money, even if it means destroying the lives of others.

------
nicholassmith
I had civet coffee many, many years ago (nearing a decade) and it was a lovely
cup of coffee, but not enough to justify the ridiculous price. Now that's
become industrialised it's even more awful to consider having a cup, I do hope
this helps remove it from the market.

------
JacobAldridge
"Wild Crap Coffee" \- as a descriptor of the Civet industry's marketing, the
broader fecal caffeine industry instigated by the author (Tony Wild), and the
brand name for his suggested loop-closing product in the final sentence - has
a ring to it.

------
wtvanhest
I know this is the wrong reaction, but now I want to try it.

------
ballard
A proper luxury product should debase the consumer, ie,

"LoJack for luxury handbags" that would adapt radio tags for monitoring wild
animals to the task. (Sans Civets.)

------
ianstallings
_What on earth.._

~~~
pault
It's actually quite good. Imagine coffee without the bitterness or acidity.
The taste is somewhere between coffee and unsweetened cocoa.

~~~
lucisferre
A solidly brewed quality coffee can produce the same effects and should have
minimal bitterness or acidity. The technique and beans are what matter. I'm
pretty skeptical about the pooping.

~~~
peterwwillis
No, you're 100% right, the claims are bullshit. Less proteins in the coffee
bean = less flavor. [http://sprudge.com/say-no-to-kopi-
luwak.html](http://sprudge.com/say-no-to-kopi-luwak.html)

~~~
pault
I'm definitely open to the possibility that the effect is purely
psychological. Not unlike the wine experts that were fooled by white wine with
red food coloring.

~~~
jrockway
What were the qualifications of these "wine experts"? I read the original
paper and the word "expert" is used only three times in the entire paper, and
long after they talk about the subjects.

~~~
lucisferre
This was the article if I recall
([http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jun/23/wine-
tas...](http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jun/23/wine-tasting-junk-
science-analysis)). And it doesn't actually prove experts can't tell the good
from the bad in black and white terms, but simply that given the same wines
they may rate them differently each time.

------
guiomie
We humans are really twisted.

------
frogpelt
It's time for free-range, coffee-eating kopi luwak farms!

------
talles
"cut the crap" :)

------
malkia
Kopi 2014

------
njharman
Viva la free market!

