
People think they're calling restaurants directly but Grubhub is getting a fee - lemonberry
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/venessawong/grubhub-phone-order-call-fee-coronavirus
======
MaintenanceMode
It's disheartening that there's so much due diligence required just to conduct
the most basic transactions right now. I have a narrow list of vetted
restaurants, where I understand the costs and to the business, the delivery
model, the safety (food handling and Covid precautions), and I only take out
from these particular places. I tried a new place recently, only to find out I
had been duped by Grub-hub, even though I thought I had placed the order on
the restaurant's own site (or so I thought). When I went to pickup, the owner
set me straight and gave me his card with the correct number. He showed me
that I had paid an additional $25 in markup, as well as the fees he was
charged, and this was a pickup!

~~~
MattGaiser
The due diligence is because the restaurants offer a terrible experience.

Most still do not have an independent online ordering function. They want me
to call.

Most still haven't set up meaningful profiles on Yelp and other review sites.
So I would need to root around to find contact information.

That is in addition to needing to give my credit card over the phone, not
knowing how long the order will take, and needing to be concerned about the
person hearing the order right.

The restaurants are barely trying to compete for customers.

~~~
noelsusman
I've had a pretty great experience calling restaurants to place orders. I talk
to a human, tell them my order, they repeat it back to me, and tell me it will
be X dollars and ready at Y o'clock. I show up at the specified time and the
order is ready to go. A couple times I had to wait 5 minutes because they were
inundated and couldn't keep up.

No stupid app to download. No account to create. No bullshit fees. No
marketing emails. I just tell them what I want and then go get it. It's
refreshing.

~~~
40four
I agree 100% with you. I think the expectations of the parent comment are very
misplaced.

Restaurant owners are usually not tech people, nor can many of them afford to
hire tech people. To expect all restaurants to pay exorbitant amounts of money
setup/ maintain online ordering systems is not realistic.

Also, I have _never_ had a restaurant ask me for a card over the phone. Order
times are a rough guess based on current traffic, no matter over the phone or
an app. And 9 times out of 10 the server repeats your order before hanging up.
If they don’t, it is easy to ask them to.

To be fair, I have been surprised many times how difficult it can be to find
an online menu for places I like in my area. Lots of places might not even
have a website, but in these cases, I actually use GrubHub and the like to
read the menus only. I _never_ order through them.

Here is an easy way to beat these broken GrubHub shenanigans. Find an online
menu, or use GrubHub _only_ to read the menu menu if need be. Find the _real_
phone number on Google maps. Place your order over the phone. Pick it up
yourself and save tons of money on fees (and now apparently save the
restaurant from getting screwed too). Make sure to pick up a paper menu on
your way out for next time :)

~~~
BeetleB
> To be fair, I have been surprised many times how difficult it can be to find
> an online menu for places I like in my area. Lots of places might not even
> have a website, but in these cases, I actually use GrubHub and the like to
> read the menus only.

Don't. Do. This.

Grubhub menus are often incomplete (and we all know the prices are wrong). I
just checked a nearby restaurant I often frequent and the items I usually buy
are not on the Grubhub menu.

If they don't have a web site and you want to see the menu:

Go to either the Google Maps listing or the Yelp listing.

If Yelp, don't click on the menu if they have one within Yelp.

Instead, click on the photos. You'll almost always find photos of the menu
uploaded by Yelp users.

~~~
pmiller2
Just FYI, the menu photos on Yelp are not guaranteed to be up to date, either.
The only real way to see what the restaurant's actual menu is without going
there is if they have it up on their own website.

~~~
BeetleB
> Just FYI, the menu photos on Yelp are not guaranteed to be up to date,
> either

That's true, but rare. If there are no recent photos of the menu, then there's
a good chance not many people eat there.

In any case, Grubhub menus are probably more likely to be inaccurate than
those photos.

~~~
pmiller2
It's more common than you think though. I know of restaurants that change
their menus daily or weekly. Most don't, but you will run into it if you eat
at enough places, and I highly doubt someone is going to post a new photo of
the menu every week.

------
obibring
Its astonishing delivery services have the depravity to dupe customers trying
to help a hurting industry.

If you live in NYC or SF, I built a browser extension that will help you place
delivery orders directly with local restaurants. It currently compares the
price of your delivery across all delivery services, and within the next week,
will link you to local restaurant websites if one is available. For those
interested in checking, the link is
[https://platerapp.app.link/Gsxltl3d06](https://platerapp.app.link/Gsxltl3d06)

~~~
zhoujianfu
Awesome, I had exactly this idea.. you should consider expanding (if you don’t
already) to direct from the restaurant services (e.g. Yoshinoya is available
on doordash but also does their own delivery for way less). And then charge $1
per order and raise $1b!

------
caymanjim
It's possible to do this without resorting to the sleazy practices of Grubhub.
I used to work for Slice, which provides order-taking (but notably not
delivery) for mom-and-pop pizza shops. They don't add people to the platform
without their permission. They only charge $1/order. They help restaurants
digitize their menus, keep prices up to date, and they take orders digitally
and over the phone. They have a large and responsive customer service
department. It's all up front, honest, and affordable. It's not a direct
comparison with Grubhub, since the restaurants still do the deliveries
themselves, but it's a good business model and an honest company.

~~~
GhostVII
People were previously claiming on Hacker News that Slice was registering
websites on behalf of pizza shops, and then claiming the business as theirs on
Google Maps [0]. Is this false? One user claimed that the businesses were not
aware of this [1].

[0]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23349819](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23349819)

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16824992](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16824992)

~~~
caymanjim
I don't know what the company's policies are now. Could be I misunderstood how
they operate, could be that they got more aggressive, could be a store owner
didn't understand the details. They help owners with no presence create a
presence, and many business owners aren't particularly tech savvy.

------
tick_tock_tick
Every article I read about restaurants just seems to reinforce that they are
powered by their owners hopes and dreams rather than any financial or business
literacy. It makes then ripe targets for exploitation.

~~~
abhiyerra
Restaurants and mom and pop grocery stores/convenience stores are very low
margin, super long hours, and stressful. Furthermore, it isn’t just places
like Grubhub but also local governments with weird zoning laws and
expectations that really exploit these businesses with random fees.

(My parents had a grocery store. They lost it during the previous recession.)

~~~
rahimnathwani
Restaurants and grocery/convenience stores are a bit different. Yes, owners of
both are signing up for long hours and poor pay. But the motivation is often
different:

\- if you buy or start a grocery store, you know you're buying yourself a job;
you won't get rich, but you will make more money than you would working for
someone else, e.g. if your options are limited due to discrimination, lack of
fluency with local language, literacy etc.

\- if you open a restaurant, you might me doing it for all the same reasons as
above (think an undifferentiated Chinese restaurants, or a local pizza place).
But many people open restaurants because they are into food, because they
think the way they make food is better than existing restaurants, and because
they think the margins are going to make the restaurant ultra-profitable.

(My parents also had a grocery store.)

------
mataug
> “If a customer calls to place a coffee order, we’re paying a $6.42 fee — for
> a coffee.”

This is wrong ! Plain and simple. $6.42 is probably more than the cost of the
coffee.

Here are somethings you as a consumer can do to help,

1\. If possible visit the restaurant personally, and order to go

2\. Find the restaurant's phone number on their website / Facebook / Instagram
/ twitter page.

3\. Leave a tip

I've found that yelp / google phone numbers can be in-accurate or lead to a
proxy number.

~~~
foogazi
> “If a customer calls to place a coffee order, we’re paying a $6.42 fee — for
> a coffee.”

This is based on the contract the restaurant has with grubhub, uber eats, etc
- if the terms are not favorable why not cancel the agreement ?

Seems they want others to fix their self-inflicted damage

~~~
teej
Restaurants want this service, they just want it at a fair price.

The argument isn’t so much “grubhub charges a fee” more that “grubhub uses its
monopoly position in a local market to further monopolize distribution
channels and thus charge monopoly prices“

~~~
tylergetsay
what's a fair price?

------
enumjorge
> The redirect number can also appear higher in Google search results
> (including the Google panel for that business) than the restaurant’s own
> line.

This seems like a pretty fundamental failure on Google's part. The whole value
proposition of Google is that they'll find you the best answer for you search,
not just 'an' answer that could be misinformation. This is the problem with
the way their ranking algorithms tend to favor information aggregators. It's
easy for second-hand sites to out-rank the source of truth. It reminds me of
the way Pinterest has degraded the Google image search experience by polluting
the results with their own low-quality entries.

Now I get that automating the gathering of this information must not be easy.
How do you verify the legitimacy of any one page claiming to be the site for a
restaurant? What I don't understand is how Google can see that sites like
Grubhub are exploiting the ranking algorithm to re-route users, but they don't
do anything about it. Why don't they penalize those sites?

~~~
Wingman4l7
IIRC, this was also an issue during the 2018 cryptocurrency rush -- fraudulent
support phone #s for big exchanges / companies like Coinbase would show up
higher in the rankings than the legitimate number. Frustratingly and
amusingly, the fraudulent phone numbers were supposedly better-staffed and
more responsive.

~~~
VMisTheWay
Because fraudulent people don't actually provide value, where coinbase needs
to confirm identity.

------
sequoia
Can Grubhub do this phone scamming thing if the restaurants don’t agree to
work with Grubhub? If not, it’s on the restaurants to figure out they’re being
scammed and cut off Grubhub. I agree it’s extremely sleazy but if restaurants
opt into it what can you do?

Regarding online ordering: restaurants need to decide if this is a space they
want to be in (to grow business by allowing another channel for ordering) then
research the field, pick a vendor with a fee model they like (or build their
own!) and get actively into the game. For better or worse this is like having
a phone number however-many years ago. You can choose not to but the
technology is getting more and more popular so if you want to “keep up” you
have to learn a new trick.

There are some up-front flat-fee vendors out there that will allow you to set
up your menu for online order at your domain. And if you don’t want to spend
the time, Grubhub will do it for you for a fee, and if you don’t want to pay
the fee or spend the time, then cross your fingers and hope your customers are
ok ordering by phone. But online ordering is not going to come out of nothing
at no cost.

~~~
CharlesW
> _Can Grubhub do this phone scamming thing if the restaurants don’t agree to
> work with Grubhub?_

I don't know whether they (legally) can, but they do.

[https://www.eater.com/2019/10/30/20940107/grubhub-to-add-
res...](https://www.eater.com/2019/10/30/20940107/grubhub-to-add-restaurants-
without-permission-like-postmates)

~~~
sequoia
“ In July, New Food Economy reported that Grubhub was buying restaurant web
domains without restaurants’ knowledge or consent, and though Grubhub argued
it’s technically allowed to do that _in the contract_ , it was still a bad
look.”

“In the contract” implies the restaurants _are_ opting to work with Grubhub
and pay them fees.

As for “non-partner” listings, how can Grubhub charge a fee if the order is
phoned in or payed over the counter like a normal order? So I don’t think that
situation is one where restaurants are paying Grubhub _any_ fees (though
Grubhub is surely charging customers fees and possibly marking up menu items,
the latter of which I agree is shady and should be stopped.)

I am happy to be mad at Grubhub but I’m not condemning them for charging a
restaurant a fee the restaurant agreed in writing to pay. Why did the coffee
shop in TFA agree to pay $6.76 or whatever per call??

------
vxNsr
Yeah for this reason I always try to just go the company's website and call
them. some redirect me to chownow, which is ok, as long as I know that you'd
rather let them handle the order instead of the phone.

------
macintux
Discussion from a couple of weeks ago.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23194727](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23194727)

------
paul7986
Why are so many popular startups run and funded by sleazebags... anything and
everthing to win! Digusting!

~~~
dylz
Grubhub is nearly two decades old.

------
dejawu
It's even more infuriating knowing that Grubhub is running these emotional
"support local restaurant" ads that imply that using their service is somehow
a form of activism while they steal from those very same businesses.

------
joncrane
Don't most people use Google Maps to find nearby restaurants? Does Google Maps
ever give the wrong phone number to order from?

I know using the phone is kinda 1900s but sometimes I like to ask about a
certain dish I'm trying and stuff. Sometimes the person talking to me is a bit
gruff but I tell myself it's OK because at least I'm not giving any money to
the delivery companies.

I hope it goes without saying that I always pick up. Any excuse to get out of
the house, especially on a work day!

------
a3n
These restaurants signed up for a voluntary man in the middle attack.

The reporter should have asked why these restaurants don't quit grub hub.

------
jfrumar
Even worse than just the misleading practices - we've been unable to connect
through these proxied phone numbers at all. We just get an out of service
tone. Both at&t and T-Mobile. I have been assuming it's because too many
people are calling. Next time I pickup, I'll ask for a direct line.

------
izzydata
If you accidentally called GrubHub and asked if you were speaking directly to
the restaurant, would they lie to you?

~~~
eyeinthepyramid
From what I can tell, they connect the caller directly to the restaurant, but
charge the restaurant a fee for their connection "service".

------
HaloZero
I'm wondering if they changed their policy in SF or if the restaurants I
looked up just have opted out of this.

I checked Phat Philly (all phone numbers on their website, grubhub, yelp, and
google maps were the same). Same with Sultan Kebab & Gryo King (I couldn't
find a number on their site but everyone else had the same number)

------
greyhair
I am only getting takeout from places I know. I have there menus in a drawer
by the fridge. That way, I know I am calling directly.

Much of the gig economy is just shyster business, wedging themselves between
actual customers and actual providers, and taking far more than the actual
value they provide.

------
gruglife
I love this paragraph from the pizza arbitrage article, link below.

If capitalism is driven by a search for profit, the food delivery business
confuses the hell out of me. Every platform loses money. Restaurants feel like
they're getting screwed. Delivery drivers are poster children for gig economy
problems. Customers get annoyed about delivery fees.

[https://themargins.substack.com/p/doordash-and-pizza-
arbitra...](https://themargins.substack.com/p/doordash-and-pizza-arbitrage)

~~~
calvinmorrison
The lure of more business for local restaurants. An uptick in orders and free
advertising could certainly help!

The lure of a weekend job for drivers. I've done it and made out pretty well
on my motorcycle for a few hours on the weekend.

consumers love apps and they love being able to have visibility into the
status of their orders. They want to shop online for food and have it appear
without of phone call, or to discover new restaurants around them. Sometimes
they have favorite sit down restaurants that aren't take out spots - but know
they might have a listing on a fancier food delivery service.

App creators: take a cut off of everything on the top without actually
inventing or doing anything. A logistics company elsewhere caught charging
this much would be laughed out of the room but in a new and exciting field
there's a lot of room for markup.

Cheers!

~~~
MattGaiser
> A logistics company elsewhere caught charging this much would be laughed out
> of the room but in a new and exciting field there's a lot of room for
> markup.

I would argue that they are also the owner of many of the customers. DoorDash
owns me as a customer simply because when I am hungry, I turn on the app and
select from one of the offerings.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Grubhub’s CEO said on an earnings call that customers are “promiscuous” and
not demonstrating loyalty to a single dining app, so while you have your
anecdote, it doesn’t appear to apply across larger sample sizes.

[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-grubhub-
results/grubhub-b...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-grubhub-
results/grubhub-blames-promiscuous-diners-for-slowing-growth-shares-
sink-30-idUSKBN1X72DD)

~~~
MattGaiser
Sure, but are they also promiscuous about ordering from the restaurants
themselves or just across apps?

I am also promiscuous across apps (DoorDash just because I got the DashPass
for during the pandemic), but it has been years since I ordered anything other
than pizza directly.

So the industry as a whole just owns the customers rather than the restaurant.

------
mark-r
So how do you avoid calling a 3rd party when Google won't show you the correct
phone number?

~~~
yedava
Most restaurants have a website. Their real phone number will be listed there.

~~~
splonk
Just try to make sure you've found the real website and not one of Grubhub's
autogenerated fake sites. They all look pretty similar so you'll be able to
identify them after you've seen a few, but it's easy to mistakenly think
you're at the real site the first time.

[https://www.eater.com/2019/6/28/19171476/grubhub-seamless-
cy...](https://www.eater.com/2019/6/28/19171476/grubhub-seamless-
cybersquatting-restaurant-web-domains)

~~~
mark-r
There's nothing to keep Grubhub from changing their site design. And someone
else might get the same bright idea. So learning what a fake site looks like
isn't going to be a long term solution.

------
carbonatedmilk
So confused. Do you not have tort law in the US?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passing_off](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passing_off)

------
dkdk8283
This is MITM and in many respects extremely unethical. I admit that the
premise is clever but it’s little more than ripping people off. There’s no
value add to the customer that I can see.

~~~
BelleOfTheBall
It's supposed to help restaurants with admin and delivery stuff, which, in
turn, would make it easier for customers to order and maybe even provide
faster delivery but, in its current implementation, it's just a way to skim
money off of the restaurants.

------
sidhanthp
I have instantly gained respect for Buzzfeed's reporting.

------
monadic2
All of these crowdsourcing apps (Uber, doordash, drizly, instacart) charge
about 10-100x what you would think it would take to deliver the service.

------
schoolornot
If GrubHub brings awareness to your restaurant that turns into an order why
shouldn't they be compensated? You may not like the commission. Don't like it,
leave.

The only case I think is a step too far is if GrubHub uses their search rank
to display results above a non-participating restaurant and attempts to extort
commissions by displaying a proxy number anyway. Is there any evidence of
this?

If a customer decides to store the proxy number in their address book thinking
that it's a direct line and GrubHub charges the restaurant for each call, then
that's a bit scummy.

~~~
jschwartzi
In all cases where GrubHub has the first result in my area, they didn't do
anything to "make me aware" of the restaurant I'm trying to order from. All
they're doing in many cases is making it a pain in the ass for me to order via
the restaurant's own delivery page.

------
andrewla
Why don't the restaurants just dramatically inflate their prices to accomodate
the Grubhub fee? I don't understand why it would be better to contact the
restaurant directly for the restaurant -- they benefit from Grubhub too, and
if they don't want to pay the cost they should just pass it on to the
customers.

The restaurants have voluntarily entered into this arrangement. If they can't
afford to operate with the fees on top of their regular prices, then they have
to increase their prices.

------
JohnL4
As soon as I hear "your call may be monitored to ensure AWESOMENESS!" I know
money is changing hands.

------
qwerty456127
People should ask where who are they speaking to and if the operator lies they
should take legal action.

~~~
bdowling
There is no operator. The Grubhub-owned number will ring through to the
restaurant, but will log the call so that Grubhub can get its commission.

~~~
huhtenberg
The restaurant then should ask what number the customer was calling and offer
a callback if it wasn't a direct call.

~~~
nmeofthestate
That's presumably against the terms of service they agreed when they decided
to work with GrubHub. The real fix would be for the restaurant to stop using
GrubHub. Unless I'm really misunderstanding what's going on here.

------
suyash
I use yelp to see reviews and menu but call directly to place a "togo" order.

------
tehlike
I'm surprised chownow is not mentioned. Decent product with Fixed upfront
pricing

------
ilaksh
The solution is public peer to peer platforms and protocols.

------
quickthrower2
What if you call the Grubhub number from a prison phone!

------
LatteLazy
So much signalling on here...

