
Signal Technology Foundation is now open for donations - Krasnol
https://freedom.press/news/signal-technology-foundation-now-open-donations/
======
tylermenezes
I've been really disappointed in how, despite the huge amount of funding
recently, Signal is still operating like a small community-powered OSS
project.

I once opened an issue for 15-second freezes after sending each message, +1'd
by other users, and my bug report was closed and locked with a very rude
message from one of the (paid!) developers to "Please, when you open a bug,
talk about the user impact."

Seriously... are you kidding me? You have $50M and you're going to close and
lock a bug about 15sec lag when sending messages because it's not obvious what
the user impact is?

And if I, as a former developer, YC alum, etc. can't open a bug report without
getting a rude lecture from the Signal team (seriously fuck you Scott
Nonnenberg), what hope is there for a casual user? I went back to re-read it
just to make sure I wasn't exaggerating, and nope! It makes me mad thinking
about what would happen if my non-technical friends needed help. They'd just
switch.

I really want Signal as a concept to succeed, but after having used it for
years and seen the bugs, and the disregard the developers have for users, I
think something like Telegram is unfortunately the better bet.

~~~
kick
> And if I, as a former developer, YC alum, etc.

This actually makes you the least important type of bug reporter (and reeks of
entitlement). Given Moxie's personal views especially, you probably aren't
going to win any points for either of those, especially not the last one.

Andrew Torba is YC alum, too. It's not good on its own.

On top of this, the response wasn't that rude, especially given you didn't
follow the template:

 _I 've closed this, because it's not a bug. It's a single scenario-free trace
without a debug log, and without connection to a user scenario. Please, when
you open a bug, talk about the user impact. Follow the bug template._

 _It does sound like you 're talking about interactivity problems, which is
something we've been talking about here: #2613_

 _If you 'd like to get involved (which you seem to with that trace!), please
check out the current beta build, which has a potential fix for the
interactivity problems._

[https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-
Desktop/issues/2703](https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Desktop/issues/2703)

You seem extremely over-entitled.

~~~
alexnewman
Why would you mind if the user is entitled? I've regretted all the negative
energy I've redirected back onto my users. I feel as though there's a lot to
learn about how signal could do a better job scaling to a large scale project
because I think Signal makes the same mistake as your that I used to.

I've had a lot of problems filing bugs with signal and signal projects. I've
given up on filing bugs cause they are ignored because of some aspect of your
byzantine issue policy. I am totally a huge supporter of signal's ideals but
signal is well funded now."I'm not a YC alum" I read as if I were in your
shoes. Not everything has to be an attack. Stay positive.

~~~
jkozera
> user is entitled?

Is #2703 a user report or a developer report? Why would a user use GitHub and
not [https://support.signal.org/](https://support.signal.org/)? Who is
directing any sort of negative energy, when the reporter is swearing publicly
at the developer?

~~~
alexnewman
right, that's what i mean by redirecting. Taking negative energy and slinging
it back. It's lame. Learn from everyone

~~~
vertex-four
There's no negative energy in the response quoted.

~~~
alexnewman
That's totally false. There's lots of valuing one person over another based on
what they said and felt. Then rejecting that user due to failing signal's
byzantine bug reporting system

------
neiman
I would love to use Signal, but I have two issues with it.

One, it insists on me giving more permissions to Google services, where it's
very difficult to go around this requirements.

But worse, it relies on me a phone number as an ID. I keep changing my phone
number, I don't wanna share my phone number, and I really think that the
computer in my pocket should finally be completely separated from this old
concept of a phone. Please give me another way to open a Signal account.

~~~
oil25
> it insists on me giving more permissions to Google services

Can you clarify what you mean? I use Signal without Google Play Store/Services
and am curious about said requirement.

> it relies on me a phone number as an ID

I dislike this also, but what's the alternative? A phone number is (usually) a
long-lived, relatively immutable identifier which is convenient, memorable and
portable. It is highly usable and that may be more important than other
considerations.

~~~
h91wka
> but what's the alternative

Making phone and e-mail optional, and being a tier-1 identity. That's what
Matrix does.

~~~
maksim-m
Then Signal have to store your social graph on the server in plaintext. It's
not what's expected from a private messenger.

~~~
dbrgn
Storing the social graph is not required at all. For example, Threema creates
a random alphanumeric identity that is linked to your public key (instead of
linking the phone number directly to your public key). It's possible to
_optionally_ link your hashed phone number and/or e-mail to your identity.
Finding your friends can be done by comparing hashes of the data in your
address book with the hashes linked to the identities. Those address book
hashes never need to be persisted anywhere on the server, an in-memory
comparison is sufficient, then the data can be thrown away. If you wish to
stay anonymous, just ask people to add you manually by typing in your identity
(or by scanning your public key QR code, which also results in verification /
trust).

------
newscracker
[Preface: I use Matrix/Riot, Signal, Telegram and Wire for chats, and have
been using these for more than a few years]

Considering the very slow pace of development on UX and stability, the $50
million initial grant and the creation of Signal Foundation don’t seem to have
achieved much. As recently as a few months ago, on the latest iOS and latest
version of Signal, I’ve seen some contacts get multiple device changed
messages from me even though nothing had changed (no change in device, no
change in OS). The few contacts who do use it also complain of message
delivery issues. There’s still no way to backup chats on iOS. There’s no easy
way to get back group memberships when changing devices. Combine all these
with how much the UX and feature set lag behind that of Telegram, I still see
Signal as a niche laggard.

As pointed out by others, using a phone number as the identifier is a big
drawback for something that focuses on security and privacy (Telegram shares
the same drawback). What’s worse is that Signal, like WhatsApp, exposes one’s
phone number to everyone else in a group (something Telegram got right for a
long time by making one’s phone number invisible by default; after privacy
issues in the Hong Kong protests, Telegram quickly provided an update so that
even people who have your number in their contacts, through enumeration in the
case of oppressive regimes, wouldn’t know that you’re on Telegram).

I can go on and on, but Signal is not something I’d recommend to people who
need secure, private and reliable messaging. I’m currently looking forward to
UX improvements in Matrix and its clients. A decentralized solution is
probably the best bet for our freedom.

------
mattl
$50 million in initial funding from Brian Acton. That’s approximately 50 years
of the FSF budget or 100 years of OpenBSD.

I wish them well.

~~~
jmathai
They're in a very different space than FSF/OpenBSD and competing directly with
well funded companies like Facebook, Google, Telegram, etc.

Brian Acton, Whatsapp founder, probably understands this better than anyone.

~~~
colechristensen
So?

They're a messaging app.

Basic communication is not that complicated, it does not take that much
effort.

Whole operating systems are not less complicated than exchanging messages
because of differences in competition.

If Google started selling sandwiches, Subway wouldn't start requiring 30
people to make your lunch.

~~~
jmathai
It is actually quite complicated to convince a consumer to use your app
instead of Facebook Messenger. Especially when you don't possess an ecosystem
of services that they and their friends already use on a daily basis.

~~~
eitland
It wasn't _that_ hard for Whatsapp:

\- Provide excellent clients.

\- Promise to take payments and not mine data or show ads.

\- Use few but smart employees.

\- Profit.

Telegram managed to get this right too, and I'm disappointed with both of them
for now, Whatsapp for selling out and Telegram for starting yet another crypto
currency.

Both managed thanks to people going around selling it.

At the point were I

\- either need more than mail envelope security (protection against causual
snooping by local mail delivery)

\- or were Signal or Matrix becomes equally usable as Telegram

I'll be happy to move, as will many others I think.

Provide a better messaging systems - and this time show me up front how you
won't get away legally with selling out for > 10 Billion USD - tell me about
it and watch me sell it. PS: protip: do charge reasonable payments like
Whatsapp did! Or sell API access or something that makes you aligned with the
users instead of investors.

~~~
jmathai
For every Whatsapp or Telegram there's hundreds of chat clients which failed
to succeed.

It's $16,000,000,000 hard (Whatsapp acquisition price).

------
jakebasile
I've tried Signal many times, but their lack of certain features continues to
make it a no go for me. There's still no real multi device support, no tablet
support, no Siri support, and no backup cloud or otherwise (switch phones and
lose everything!).

I understand that these are complex issues but Signal is competing with
iMessage for my usage and it can't win without these.

~~~
colordrops
Signal's purpose is to be secure and private. If these are not primary
concerns, it is unlikely that Signal would be the best option for you, as
there will always be someone with more money and developers to out-class
Signal feature-wise.

~~~
all_blue_chucks
Unless Signal's usability matches what the average user expects, nobody will
use it, and it will therefore fail at being able to be secure and private.

It takes two parties to install it for it to be beneficial, and so far those
I've asked to use it have uninstalled it because of usability.

~~~
Krasnol
The only people I know complaining about "usability" are very young. People
missing custom stickers and stuff like that.

Otherwise I didn't hear about any relevant issues with general users I got to
use it.

What usability issues did those you ask have?

~~~
newscracker
I'm guessing you haven't used Telegram, since you believe that only those who
miss custom stickers complain about usability on Signal. You should try
Telegram for a few months and compare it with Signal. The difference is night
and day, especially once you get used to using not exposing your phone number
to random people, fast and reliable message delivery, using multiple devices
and platforms (including a web browser) with synced conversations, editing
messages, using bots for different purposes, etc.

~~~
Krasnol
I do have used telegram. It's unfortunately the only way to get in touch with
my local openstreetmap community. I didn't see anything there I would miss on
my Signal app. I also don't see the phone number thing being an issue as the
people I communicate with on Signal do already have my phone number. I also
have the Signal Desktop program on my PC. Nothing to be desired there too.
Works flawless. Haven't seen a single bot doing something I'd require from an
app I use to communicate. What bots would you miss in Signal?

I brought up the stickers issue because this is what I heard in complaints
before.

------
bvandewalle
I love that this is led by Brian Acton, ex-WhatsApp founder who must know from
first hand experience how badly an alternative to Facebook is needed in this
space.

I use signal as my main messaging app and wish them well.

~~~
gojomo
I was super-impressed with Acton's creation & principled stewardship of
WhatsApp, but with regard to Signal, he's been essentially invisible since the
initial announcement of his donation/involvement.

His name only appears twice at the `signal.org` website:

[https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Asignal.org+Acton](https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Asignal.org+Acton)

His name doesn't appear in any recent Signal news – such as this, about the
foundation being ready to take donations.

As of April, he was supposed to be speaking at the 'TechCrunch Disrupt SF'
conference that happened earlier this month –
[https://techcrunch.com/2019/04/03/whatsapp-brian-acton-
disru...](https://techcrunch.com/2019/04/03/whatsapp-brian-acton-disrupt/) –
but he wasn't on the final schedule/speakers-list and I've seen no followup
coverage indicating he actually spoke there.

It'd be good to know what his actual involvement is, before transitively
having confidence in Signal based on Acton's experience.

------
cascom
I just wish i could get more people to adopt it - between whatsapp and
text/imessage people are not interested in another messaging platform...

------
logic
I'm about to receive a librem5, and Signal is going to be one of the biggest
stumbling blocks for me to switch over. The electron desktop app can't serve
as a replacement even if it could run properly (it needs to be tethered to a
phone that can run the Android or iOS mobile client, with the SIM for your
number installed), and open source reimplementations are few and far between
(and then there's the issue where they don't want third-party implementations
or forks talking to their servers, and they don't federate, so it's not like
you can actually run your own server and continue to talk to anyone).

I'm sure the librem5 community will eventually scaffold something to make this
work, and it might even be somewhat user-friendly, but I can't imagine a
scenario where Signal themselves are positive about it.

So, it's back to SMS for me. And convincing my more technical friends to give
Matrix a try again, in the hopes that the UX issues aren't as bad for them in
late 2019.

I wish Signal the best of luck, I really do; their goal is laudable, most of
their source is open, and they're smart folks. But a very limited developer
community (and open hostility to the kind of community that might result in
broader platform options) means I've stopped suggesting it to folks, because I
won't even be able to use it myself very shortly.

------
thecybernerd
Are there any android OEMs that ship Signal as the default messenger
application?

~~~
mattl
Does it handle regular SMS and MMS on Android?

~~~
tssva
It does but you will not be able access SMS and MMS messages sent in your
prior SMS app in Signal. This has prevented me and based upon multiple threads
found while trying to see if it was possible many others from switching to
using Signal as my default SMS messenger. It used to be able to import your
prior messages but lost the ability to do so and the developers don't seem
particularly open to bringing it back.

~~~
ripdog
The SMS import still works, I did it just a few days ago.

~~~
tssva
They must have very recently re-implemented it. It had stopped working when
they disabled plain text backup and restores.

------
erichocean
Is Signal still proprietary?

~~~
ChristianBundy
Signal is open source. Are you thinking of Telegram?

~~~
erichocean
Maybe I'm mis-remembering, but IIRC their protocol is proprietary—even though
the code is open source.

So it was more like "you can read the source, but can't do anything new or
different with it."

~~~
noodlesUK
What you’re probably remembering is the fight between them and forks about
interoperability. Forked versions aren’t allowed to use the signal servers
(and therefore talk to other users). This is in contrast to federated
protocols such as matrix, where there’s space for many clients.

~~~
lsiebert
what is matrix? Other than a pretty great action movie, I mean.

~~~
pseudalopex
[https://matrix.org/](https://matrix.org/)

