
YouTube tightens rules after David Icke 5G interview - laumars
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-52198946
======
bcheung
We can't outsource our critical thinking to private companies. People need to
develop the ability to think critically for themselves and not rely on appeals
to authority. This can't happen if people become lazy and simply trust
whatever media is out there.

This also raises concerns for me around the question of freedom of speech and
censorship. I fear we are centralizing too much power into a few private
companies that effectively wield more power than the government and the people
for whom it represents.

I'd rather have freedom of speech even if it means tons of misinformation out
there.

If and when there is some information that is unpopular but critical for
people to know, I don't want censorship to be the norm.

~~~
sp332
There's a huge difference between freedom of speech and actually hurting
people. Organizing violence, for example, is already illegal even in many
jurisdictions with strong protections for speech. "Information" that's not
only going to get people killed but also is factually wrong is definitely fair
game IMO.

~~~
champagneben
Could you not make the same argument about many politically divisive
questions? Medicare for all, climate change, etc.

~~~
sp332
Yeah, politically debatable questions seem much more defensible to me than
this. This is a straight-up lie with no benefit to anyone.

~~~
de_watcher
You can't easily separate "straight-up lie" and "politically debatable
questions". There are tons of "straight-up lies" used for creating questions,
making them "politically debatable" and then acting violently.

~~~
nailer
A couple of months ago the idea that Covid 19 would become a worldwide
epidemic was a conspiracy theory.

~~~
de_watcher
It goes both ways.

------
rhema
Spreading misinformation is bad. However, maybe casting media into the memory
hole risks creating glorified digital martyrs.

I wish the WHO made more transparent arguments about the utility of masks.
Their failure and apparent flip-flop gives the crazies low-hanging fruit and
ethos.

~~~
lukifer
We have a major "boy who cried wolf" problem with the media, and many of our
truth-finding institutions. There've been enough instances in recent decades
of arrogant incompetence and self-serving deception, that the public grows to
distrust experts disproportionately in domains where it really matters:
vaccines, epidemics, climate change.

~~~
gridlockd
A healthy dose of distrust towards experts is necessary, because they're wrong
all the time.

What about the experts - including those at the CDC - that said COVID-19 was
no worse than a flu? Are they no real experts, or are they just the _wrong
kind_ of expert?

[https://www.businessinsider.com/wuhan-coronavirus-lesser-
thr...](https://www.businessinsider.com/wuhan-coronavirus-lesser-threat-to-
americans-than-flu-2020-1)

"Trust the experts" is nothing but an argument from authority. You're likely
going to trust whatever expert confirms what you already believe.

~~~
AJ007
This covid-19 debacle illustrated a big conflation with experts and
authoritative bureaucracies.

Researchers, scientists, and people on the ground in China, Taiwan, and South
Korea issued early warnings well ahead of the WHO, CDC, and FDA flip flopping
on transmit-ability, masks, and testing.

Unfortunately the average person can’t tell the difference between a
researched investigative journalism piece in the New York Times and an opinion
column in the New York Times. Most people can’t tell the difference between
the Washington Post and the Washington Times. Many people can’t tell the
difference between the Chicago Tribune and a random website that stole the
Chicago Tribune’s layout.

All these differences matter an enormous amount. They don’t matter subtlety
like missing the freeway exit and taking the next one. They matter like
chopping your hand off instead of keeping it.

~~~
ksk
>Researchers, scientists, and people on the ground in China, Taiwan, and South
Korea issued early warnings well ahead of the WHO, CDC, and FDA flip flopping
on transmit-ability, masks, and testing.

Do you have a rough timeline for 'well ahead'? From what I've read it was
classified as zoonotic, because the staff in China who handled the initial
cases weren't presenting, and the wet-market was the only causal link. That's
when the WHO reported (mid/late Jan) that human-human transmission wasn't
possible.

>Unfortunately the average person can’t tell the difference between a
researched investigative journalism piece in the New York Times and an opinion
column in the New York Times. Most people can’t tell the difference between
the Washington Post and the Washington Times. Many people can’t tell the
difference between the Chicago Tribune and a random website that stole the
Chicago Tribune’s layout.

But its not just "average people", its most people, including HN folks. On any
expert topic, when you have no hands-on expertise, you apply "common sense",
or read some articles, and then you're back to square one. Most scientific
fields are advanced to the point where common sense doesn't get you very far.
Not only that, there are a lot of professional explainers who muddy the waters
by repeating things without understanding the nuances. I think its fine to say
whatever, as long as its fine for me to ask "OK, but what makes your opinion
worth something".

------
whywhywhywhy
Suppressing David Icke only makes this conspiracy stronger. Icke has close to
zero credibility in the UK and well known to believe in lizard people and
other such wacky theories.

If you stop people knowing he is also talking about this then the only people
left to talk about it are the regular normal seeming folks. Channels like this
[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsAwM1EqcYXKeIEufJqwWjw/vid...](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsAwM1EqcYXKeIEufJqwWjw/videos)
thousands of views per video, seems like any normal bloke you'd chat to down
the pub.

So well done by silencing a known eccentric you just made the only voices in
this conspiracy the normal everyday folks, if regular people searched this
theory and Icke popped up they might have actually questioned it because they
don't want to be associated with the lizard guy.

~~~
Majromax
> Suppressing David Icke only makes this conspiracy stronger.

I think this is begging the question. Why does Youtube, in particular, have an
obligation to not "suppress" this person, especially when there's no element
of Youtube's terms of service that would force them to carry his content?

He's not being hauled to jail by the authorities, he's just being denied (the
greatest use of) the Youtube platform. If Youtube wants to enforce a degree of
content control over what it hosts, that would ordinarily be its right -- in
the same way that if I run a print shop I don't have to print flyers from any
crank who walks in the front door.

Moreover, you're making a testable point here, that suppression "only makes
this conspiracy stronger." Is there social science evidence to back this claim
up, or is this just an intuitive opinion? An alternative framework is that by
denying a pernicious idea its greatest platforms, it makes the topic seem more
rare and thus less credible. (The converse of "everyone's saying it, there
must be some truth to it.")

~~~
ramblenode
> Moreover, you're making a testable point here, that suppression "only makes
> this conspiracy stronger." Is there social science evidence to back this
> claim up, or is this just an intuitive opinion?

If there is, you might begin with this:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect)

But the conspiracy minded do seem to latch on to anything resembling
information suppression.

------
segmondy
They need to be careful, such approach would have limited the info about
covid-19. When I was watching the news, youtube videos in early Jan, it was
coming from the "conspiracy theory" folks. Not mainstream media. Those folks
were right.

~~~
dguaraglia
They weren't right, they were just doing their usual shtick: weave panic
narratives. The only reason they were 'right' because it so happens COVID-19
is actually pretty bad. But if you go and check their history of 'predictions'
I bet everything in my savings account they've predicted a thousand
'tragedies' before and none of them came to pass.

In other words: even a broken clock is right twice a day, that doesn't mean
it's working.

~~~
rasz
They were 100% right. "Wuhan: Chinese Authorities Welding Apartment Doors Shut
to Impose Quarantine"
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXpHD9bjGe0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXpHD9bjGe0)

"Wuhan: Disinfection Spray over Wuhan"
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCY6OJskQRk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCY6OJskQRk)

9 Feb 2020 was full conspiracy theory while mass media stood silent.

Even today its not entirely common knowledge to what lengths China went at the
end of January while WHO was spreading lies about no human to human
transmission, no masks, and definitely no international border closing
necessary.

------
yters
To some degree, the media needs to treat its audience like grown ups who are
capable of thinking rationally and coming to reasonable conclusions. The more
they try to handhold everyone, it will produce two effects: reduce audience
ability to make informed decisions, and reduce audience trust in the media.

Someone showed me the Icke lecture, and so we discussed what are easy ways we
could falsify his claims. E.g. countries with high incidence of covid19 and no
5g.

Especially when the conspiracy theory is so easily debunked the media should
handle such cases more liberally. Think of it as inoculating the population
against misinformation.

I do tentatively agree there are some kinds of misinformation that should be
suppressed, but any such thing should be very exceptional, and very well
explained. Otherwise, the media will end up being the modern Catholic church
and go the way of the reformation. The church has spent centuries undoing the
mistakes it made handling Luther's and other's criticisms.

~~~
ceejayoz
> the media needs to treat its audience like grown ups who are capable of
> thinking rationally and coming to reasonable conclusions

Sure, right after we feed them some unicorn tears for breakfast.

~~~
SpicyLemonZest
The fact that it's not true is largely irrelevant. When the media pursues a
strategy of manipulating the masses rather than reporting the truth, the
masses notice and stop believing what the media has to say. In the modern age,
the media only has power to the extent that people believe what it's saying.

~~~
ceejayoz
The problem extends far beyond "the media".

Substantial numbers of people don't trust their own pediatricians on
vaccinations. 40% of Americans think God created humans in their current form
instead of evolution.

Society has become hostile to _facts_ , and sites like YouTube are all too
often happy to serve up bullshit if it gets engagement.

~~~
yters
The important question to ask is 'why?' Are these people just stupid ignorants
requiring being spoon fed information, or is there something more going on?

------
jv22222
> Conspiracy theories linking 5G signals to the coronavirus pandemic continue
> to spread despite there being no evidence the mobile phone signals pose a
> health risk.

> One falsely suggests 5G suppresses the immune system, the other falsely
> claims the virus is __somehow using the network's radio waves to communicate
> and pick victims, accelerating its spread.__

(__ emphasis mine)

W T Actual F people!

Facepalm.

If it were true it might be one of the greatest discoveries of all time ;)

------
samizdis
David Icke:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke)

Can't remember him when he was a footballer, but I wonder how many times he
headed the ball ;-)

~~~
SlowRobotAhead
Isn’t this basically an ad hominem attack? I don’t know the guy, but you’re
attacking him and not his argument. Isn’t the rule here to take the strongest
part of an argument and go off that?

Edit: Downvoted on a site for pointing out the rules of the site. Maybes it’s
just me, but since the Great Quarantine, some websites have been a little
extra smug and “hide the wrong think” prone.

~~~
SketchySeaBeast
Are we actually under obligation to listen to everything a crank says and then
evaluate each statement? Once I find out someone believes in "reptoids", I
don't see a lot of value in wasting my time with them, and it's exhausting to
make that effort when they clearly aren't.

~~~
SlowRobotAhead
No, I believe you have the option of not watching his content, not replying to
it, and generally allowing others to be as wrong as they would like to be.
Unless someone is forcing your to interact with him... are they?

That isn’t the topic of an ad hominem however. Saying “he’s been kicked in the
head too many times” is.

------
whoisjohnkid
Don’t like the direction YouTube and other social media companies are headed.
This is pretty much censorship of free speech. I understand that he may be
spewing garbage, but sheesh. At this rate YouTube will only have content it
wants you to see; this is how it starts.

------
jb775
Whenever conspiracy theory talk pops up, I notice 2 groups of people: 1) the
conspiracy theorists 2.) the people calling the conspiracy theorists crazy
lunatics....rarely anything in-between. Is there anyone out there that can
scientifically debunk this guy's claims?

~~~
01100011
5g isn't alien technology. It was developed over years by engineers and
technicians. Did any of those folks show symptoms of 5g poisoning?

~~~
jb775
I have no idea, do you know if those folks haven't shown symptoms of 5g
poisoning? Probably something worthy of looking into since many people have
concerns about 5g.

~~~
SketchySeaBeast
> Probably something worthy of looking into since many people have concerns
> about 5g.

Take flat earthers. Because many people believe it we should investigate - so
people post evidence that the earth is round, the flat earthers reject that
evidence and make the flat earth claim again. So do we keep investigating? The
same number of people still believe. How many times around that wheel do we
go? Do you believe that no one has honestly looked into the health effects of
5g? What evidence do you think it'll take for someone who believes radio waves
are causing these effects, even though scientists have pictures of the virus,
to have their mind changed?

------
swiley
Google: “it’s better to be illiterate than have the possibility to read
something wrong.”

I swear to god I thought the internet would be so different in 2020.

Before (and even after) the ban there was a lot of good information on
YouTube, a lot of it was from trained medical professionals and now it’s all
going away and people will be left with gossip and guesses.

~~~
gre
Could you please elaborate on what you mean by the YouTube information going
away?

------
aaron695
How about we remove all the videos claiming people shouldn't be wearing masks?

Or is actually saving lives to much bother and it's more fun attacking people
who believe in reptilians?

~~~
lonelappde
Are those getting as many views?

------
Solvitieg
What is the problem with believing 5G causes coronavirus? The people who
believe it are misinformed, and so what?

I understand why it's harmful to spread anti-vax memes, but 99% of
"misinformation" is harmless. It's often difficult to separate theory and
conspiracy from harmful information, a dubious concept.

~~~
01100011
A couple days ago in Long Beach, CA, USA, a train engineer derailed his train
in an attempt to stop a medical ship which he believed was part of a
government takeover. Conspiracies are all fun and games until a simpleton
believes them and does something that hurts others.

~~~
lonelappde
[https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-
updates/2020/0...](https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-
updates/2020/04/02/825897966/train-engineer-says-he-crashed-in-attempt-to-
attack-navy-hospital-ship-in-l-a)

Wow.

Is this a "misinformation control" issue or is it more a "monitor mental
health of employees in high trust positions" issue?

------
atomashpolskiy
_> Now any content that disputes the existence or transmission of Covid-19, as
described by the WHO [World Health Organization] and local health authorities
is in violation of YouTube policies._

 _> This includes conspiracy theories which claim that the symptoms are caused
by 5G._

Yeah, fair point. But it's a red herring.

 _> For borderline content that could misinform users in harmful ways, we
reduce recommendations. We'll continue to evaluate the impact of these videos
on communities around the world._

This one is KEY. Truth is, the majority of views comes from the Recommended,
Trending and Next to Play. No one without a direct link will see your video,
if it's nerfed by the algorithm. Checkmate.

Corona is a very heated topic with many unknowns. Deciding what can and can
not be labeled as misinformation is thus very tricky even for an expert,
because there is a very fine line between misinformation and speculation
(which is different in the sense that it's done in good faith and thus
perfectly fine). Who's going to make these decisions? A private corp with zero
transparency?

We sorely need very clear distinction (maybe even legal - e.g. a framework for
Terms of Service) between _media_ and _medium_. With the former being free to
set arbitrary rules, push agendas, ban otherwise harmless content, fuck with
content promotion in whatever ways they want, etc. And the latter providing
just the infrastructure and technical means to publish content with minimal
governance. Status of being either of these must be granted upfront and then
prohibited to change.

Otherwise every "social media" platform will eventually mutate into a
weaponized propaganda machine, promoting the interests of its stakeholders and
greater powers-that-be and suppressing any dissenting opinion. This temptation
is evidently impossible to resist.

~~~
guscost
If you weren't already convinced that YouTube is a publisher rather than a
platform, this latest episode should make it obvious.

~~~
atomashpolskiy
Absolutely. My point is that this won't change unless we as a society
explicitly regulate/prohibit such behavior.

------
bishalb
All social media are strangely censoring anything that even remotely questions
the official coronavirus story. I had shared this article on twitter some days
ago and it's not even some weird conspiracy theory but twitter flagged it
[https://off-guardian.org/2020/03/24/12-experts-questioning-t...](https://off-
guardian.org/2020/03/24/12-experts-questioning-the-coronavirus-panic/)

~~~
jswny
Because this is not the time for conspiracy theories. People talking about the
earth being flat doesn't really hurt anyone. People believing conspiracy
theories about a global pandemic can be seriously dangerous.

~~~
s9w
This particular incident actually sounds like it involves pretty heavy "out
there" stuff. But in general the term conspiracy theory means barely more than
"not in line with government press releases". The average conspiracy theory
guy is much less crazy than one might assume and a surprising number of now
public revelations have been circulating in these corners of the internet way
earlier. It can be quite informative and challenge critical thinking at the
same time.

~~~
jswny
I have no problem with conspiracy theories, or people talking about them. What
I do have a problem with is the general category of misinformation/conspiracy
theories which hurt or endanger others. For instance, for every person who
doesn't get a vaccination because they believe some of the anti-vaccination
conspiracy theories, there is an immune-compromised individual who is being
put into harm's way because of misinformation because they medically cannot
receive the vaccine.

In the case of the coronavirus, we are dealing with a very dangerous global
pandemic, and I personally think that this falls into the category of
"misinformation can be very dangerous."

~~~
s9w
People are entitled to form their own opinions, even and in particular on
vaccinations. They own their body after all.

~~~
jswny
As much as I agree with you when it comes to pretty much anything else, I have
to draw a line when it comes to conspiracy theories which are undeniably false
such as anti-vaccination ones, which harm others who cannot medically get
vaccinations.

~~~
s9w
I see your point and can understand your position.

Just as a counterpoint I would still add that "undeniably false" is a very
high bar that many believe is not reached with some topics, the "gospel" (not
meant dismissive) on vaccinations being one of them.

------
okareaman
This will only further fuel the conspiracy theories because of course the high
tech companies suppress information critical of 5G

------
comzilla
I think a solution would be to let the video on the platform but display a
huge yellow banner or something like Reddit's quarantine thing where it says
"this video contains misinformation about Covid-19" or something more
intrusive if you'd like. That way you're not necessarily compromising free
speech

~~~
lonelappde
How about modelling good behavior? Instead of opinionated name-calling
"misinformation", simply add a comment with their claims about such and such
authorities explanation of the situation. If you can trust people to believe
your facts, why would you assume they trust your opinions?

------
briefcomment
The interview is on London Real's FB page for anyone interested.

[https://www.facebook.com/londonreal/videos/206277527340570/?...](https://www.facebook.com/londonreal/videos/206277527340570/?vh=e&d=n)

------
gridlockd
I don't think this is helpful, it's quite possibly counter-productive. If
you're prone to conspiracy thinking, you're going to link any current event to
any alternative explanation, no matter how far fetched.

If 5G wasn't in the news, it would be something else. Suppressing the signal
only makes it stronger, because now you've "proven" that "the elite can't
allow the secret information out".

David Icke is preaching to the choir, he isn't converting anyone. Nobody who
is otherwise capable of sound reasoning is going to watch him and go: "I might
disagree with this person on whether Zionist Reptile Shapeshifters are
controlling the world, but his analysis of the effects of 5G on human health
and COVID-19 seem credible!"

Conspiracy thinking is extremely common even among clinically sane people. The
"cure" is not suppression, not derision, but letting people figure it out how
their mind sometimes works against them. The biggest obstacle is the human
ego.

------
mullingitover
Good. This conspiracy theory idiocy about 5G is actively harmful to public
infrastructure and it has to stop.

My only complaint is that Icke wasn't demonetized over this. He should be
banned from the platform entirely. He's actively harmful to society.

~~~
gridlockd
I disagree completely. David Icke is responsible for the major conspiracy
theory innovation that the Zionists controlling the world are actually shape-
shifting Reptilians, effectively letting the Jews off the hook.

That means a set of people who could've otherwise ended up in classic Nazi
conspiracy circles end up in something closer to a science fiction fanclub.
Yet another set of people who dipped their toes into conspiracy theories might
actually start to question whether it's all bullshit, upon finding that the
Pope is supposedly a lizard.

The 5G thing on the other hand is something that _a lot_ of people think is
probably dangerous, whether they're conspiracy theorists or not. Of course
conspiracy theorists picked it up, but if it wasn't 5G, it would be fluoride,
or contrails, or literally anything else that might somehow be polluting
water, ground or air.

~~~
DanBC
Except when Icke says "the aliens" sometimes he means aliens and sometimes he
means "The Jews". Anti-Semitism is part of his beliefs.

See for example this.
[https://twitter.com/davidicke/status/667764406466441216](https://twitter.com/davidicke/status/667764406466441216)

~~~
gridlockd
Icke's theory does not differentiate between Zionists, Illuminati, the
Rothschilds, the royal family, the pope and so on. They are all reptilian
shapeshifters from another universe, sometimes posing as Jewish leaders,
sometimes as Christian or secular leaders, but it's never "the Jews" as a
people.

The reason this distinction is important is because if you believe "your
enemy" is really reptilians from another dimension, you don't have a reason to
be hating or threatening the jews next door. It's strictly better than you
becoming a Neonazi ready to pick up where the "final solution" left off, which
is another possible trajectory.

Bottom line, if you have the predisposition to believe in "secret group
controls the world" stuff, I'd much rather have you believe in Icke's
theories. If you _don 't_ have that predisposition, you're not going to
believe in any of that stuff either way. You don't need to be "protected".

~~~
lonelappde
This is absurd. Saying "famous Zionist are reptiles" doesn't protect non
famous Zionists. It promotes violence because it's a lot easier to set fire to
a synagogue than assassinate a Prime Minister.

~~~
gridlockd
Jews and Zionists are not the same. A lot of Jews aren't Zionists, in fact
some of the most Jewish looking Jews are anti-Zionist:

[https://i.ytimg.com/vi/FKplabTRuak/maxresdefault.jpg](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/FKplabTRuak/maxresdefault.jpg)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Zionism#Jewish_anti-
Zioni...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Zionism#Jewish_anti-Zionism)

Furthermore, a huge amount of _leftists_ are openly anti-Zionist.

I'm not saying the alien lizard theory is "protecting" anyone, I'm saying it's
the _better alternative_ to whatever Nazi conspiracy theory you're going to
buy into otherwise.

------
newsdig
latest updated figures of coronavirus on
[https://coronaworld.info](https://coronaworld.info)

------
basicplus2
The answer is education.. we need free, comprehensive education for every
person on the planet

~~~
lonelappde
Cool. So, who writes the textbooks?

The Indian government allegedly (can't find source except John Oliver's TV
show, so take with grain of salt) published textbooks claiming that Caucasian
people are undercooked toast and Africans are burnt toast, and is currently
running an ethnicity cleansing campaign to eliminate Muslims.

------
senectus1
oh man... David Ike.

If you ever wanted a trip through la la land go visit his website's forums....

Its a not so coherent and less nasty version of 4Chan where _everyone_ is off
the hinge. some more than others.

------
ornornor
This makes me wonder if there will be “covid19 deniers” in the future just
like there have been holocaust deniers ever since the war, claiming that it
never happened and is a conspiracy.

It’s really depressing these theories, anti vaccine, and anti science ideas
are gaining so much momentum in recent years. And then the world governments
pull something like they just did, saying masks don’t work when in fact they
help... how can you ever convince anti science people to trust, well, science
and governments when this happens??

I suspect this will become a bigger and bigger problem, with more and more
people dying of illnesses we have vaccines for. Very sad.

~~~
LyndsySimon
There already are “deniers”.

------
dreamlayers
If some speech is suppressed everywhere, how can one know that it's false?

------
poarneemn123
Just because there is no evidence (yet) doesn't mean it is misinformation

------
jstewartmobile
When did David Icke try to pass a gun range in Kentucky off as Syria?

[https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/14/business/media/turkey-
syr...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/14/business/media/turkey-syria-
kentucky-gun-range.html)

~~~
lern_too_spel
When did David Icke issue a correction?

~~~
jstewartmobile
What does David Icke have to correct?

~~~
detaro
2 random examples that would be useful corrections from him:

"The Protocols of the Elders of Zion aren't a legitimate historical document
laying out a plan for world domination"

"No world leaders are human/shapeshifting-alien hybrids"

~~~
jstewartmobile
In that case, " _The Weekly World News_ " has a lot of corrections to issue.

~~~
lern_too_spel
So you've admitted that Icke and The Weekly World News are comparable and not
like ABC News.

~~~
jstewartmobile
I admit that I don't live in bizzaro world--where some crazy old man's
conspiracy theories must be suppressed, while multi-billion-dollar
corporations that deceive broadly, frequently, and incompetently are the "
_good guys_."

" _But, BUT, we retracted!_ " After they were caught...

~~~
lern_too_spel
It was incompetence that they then corrected. Should the whole company be
disbanded for a few employees' corrected mistake?

Meanwhile, crazy old man has never retracted any of his conspiracy theories,
instead repeating them over and over. One is a reliable source of information,
and the other is a reliable source of misinformation.

