

Why European startup had to move to USA to fulfill its vision - pjsullivan3
http://thenextweb.com/insider/2011/12/21/why-social-travel-startup-tripl-had-to-move-from-europe-to-new-york-to-follow-its-vision/?awesm=tnw.to_1CKRV&utm_campaign=social%20media&utm_medium=Spreadus&utm_source=Twitter&utm_content=Why%20social%20travel%20startup%20Tripl%20had%20to%20move%20from%20Europe%20to%20New%20York%20to%20follow%20its%20vision

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stevoski
I run my own company. I lived in Germany for 8 years. Now I live in Spain. In
both countries I encounter many free-lancers and young entrepreneurs in
numerous industries.

In both countries, with the right professional advice, I've had little trouble
getting things going.

I just don't think the conventional wisdom that "In Europe it is hard to start
a business" holds true.

~~~
davidw
> "In Europe it is hard to start a business"

Freelancing is easy, but actually starting a business is difficult, at least
here in Italy.

It costs several thousand Euros, and takes lots of time, and is a fairly rigid
entity: if you want to, say, give someone some shares, its going to cost you
more thousands of Euros to do so.

In the US, you _can_ spend thousands of dollars creating a business, in lawyer
fees, but you can also start an LLC on the cheap, if you're not aiming for a
high-growth, VC backed, option-disbursing startup. You are 'free to choose'.

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maukdaddy
Full disclosure: I just moved from the US to Stockholm.

Sounds more like the founders of a travel-related site got enamored with the
travel lifestyle, culture, and all that goes with it in NYC. Much like a new
CS grad thinks that the valley is the only possible place a startup can work,
I imagine that the same holds for travel companies in NYC.

From what I've seen/learned so far (and a native Swede please correct me if
I'm wrong) people here seem MUCH more likely to run a lifestyle type of
business vs. one that chases VC funding.

~~~
fellowshipofone
(I work for Tripl)

What the article does not really say much is that Tripl keeping an office in
Stockholm where we do have connections, but we have trouble finding fundings
for a large engineering project, we have still not found a new office (co-
working space) and we have huge difficulties hiring (mobile and web
developers).

I would love to be proven wrong and keep a larger presence in Stockholm, but
NYC has proven easier on these three topics so far.

------
untog
From the article it sounds like this should be entitled:

"Why Swedish startup had to leave Sweden to fulfill its vision"

No offense intended to the US (I moved here from Europe and love it) but they
probably could have been successful somewhere like London or Berlin, too.

~~~
yummyfajitas
If your current location is 90% as good as the best possible location, you
probably won't move. So if they started in London or Berlin, they might still
be there.

But once you decide to move, you have no reason not to go to the best possible
location.

------
mbesto
Great for them, but these Swedes now have to give up a few things that make
Sweden "such a great place to live", such as long period of maternity leave,
affordable healthcare, low crime, etc.

America isn't for everybody, but it is for people who are hungry
(metaphorically). Sweden isn't for everybody, but it is for people who want
stability.

Does this mean Europe needs to "adapt" to be more like the US? In my opinion,
no. Many people are very happy with their lifestyles in Europe. Especially
Swedes, no doubt, who rank very high in the so called "Quality of Life" Index.
[1]

p.s. Very cool app idea. finding someone who knows travel is much better than
trying to sell travel advice. I know this from experience.

[1]- <http://nationranking.wordpress.com/2011/03/06/2011-qli/>

~~~
yummyfajitas
_...such as long period of maternity leave..._

This is really bad for startups. It would really suck if my crucial employees
(and not just female employees) were to vanish for 14 months while continuing
to be paid and still have the right (but not the responsibility) to come back
at the end of it.

Even if I replace the missing employee, I might be stuck with an extra
employee a year down the line, and I'd have less money to pay the replacement
with in the meantime.

~~~
mbesto
I don't know how German or Swedish employers do it honestly. Boot strapping
must be 100x harder with women.

~~~
niklas_a
44% of Swedish men go on paternity leave, so it's not just the women :)

And we are talking REAL swedish paternity leaves here of several months/a
year, not the american weeks.

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paulhauggis
"Sweden wasn’t a very hospitable place to do this. “Most early stage investors
were not interested in investing in a Swedish company, due to local law,
structure, and communication,” Sullivan says."

I would imagine high taxes and government regulation had something to do with
this.

~~~
pavlov
That is an old cliché that doesn't hold true anymore. The US doesn't have
substantially lower taxes or less government regulation than Nordic countries.
(If anything, the regulations for private stock investments in the US are much
more restrictive and complicated.)

The difference between the countries' investment and startup growth
environments goes much deeper and can't be easily summarized by simple
political sloganry.

~~~
paulhauggis
"That is an old cliché that doesn't hold true anymore. The US doesn't have
substantially lower taxes or less government regulation than Nordic countries.
(If anything, the regulations for private stock investments in the US are much
more restrictive and complicated.)"

Since you mentioned Nordic countries in general, let's look at Norway:

1) 28% flat tax on income (additional 9% on gross income if you earn between
$73,641 - $119,662 and 12% on anything larger than this. 2) VAT on most things
you purchase (25%) 3) 1% wealth tax, including your assets. 4) All tax returns
are publicized. So everyone knows how much you make. This is a violation of
privacy.

source: [http://www.davemanuel.com/2009/09/08/the-norwegian-tax-
syste...](http://www.davemanuel.com/2009/09/08/the-norwegian-tax-system/)

It's not just corporate taxes that need to be factored in here. If I'm a VC,
why would I invest where everything is going to cost 3X or 4X as much.

There also has to be a reason why there is almost no startup scene in Nordic
countries. If taxes were great and the government made it really easy for
businesses to startup and flourish, VC would be flocking there.

another article: [http://www.inc.com/magazine/20110201/in-norway-start-ups-
say...](http://www.inc.com/magazine/20110201/in-norway-start-ups-say-ja-to-
socialism.html)

"As a Norwegian, he pays nearly 50 percent of his income to the federal
government, along with a substantial additional tax that works out to roughly
1 percent of his total net worth."

"And that's just what he pays directly. Payroll taxes in Norway are double
those in the U.S. Sales taxes, at 25 percent, are roughly triple."

This article is filled with reasons why I would never want to start a business
here.

~~~
pavlov
_If I'm a VC, why would I invest where everything is going to cost 3X or 4X as
much._

By the same logic, no sane VC would invest in a Silicon Valley startup because
engineers there are 3-4x more expensive than most other tech hubs.

The Norwegian employee pays a lot of tax, but actually a lot of that money
goes to services that directly save money for you (the employer). For example,
you don't need to pay for the employee's health insurance, dental care or
pension plan, since these are covered by the state.

 _There also has to be a reason why there is almost no startup scene in Nordic
countries._

That's nonsense. By European standards, the startup scene is great at least in
Sweden and Finland.

~~~
paulhauggis
"The Norwegian employee pays a lot of tax, but actually a lot of that money
goes to services that directly save money for you (the employer). For example,
you don't need to pay for the employee's health insurance, dental care or
pension plan, since these are covered by the state."

You can get a great plan in the US for around $500-$600/month (an okay plan is
considerably less). 30-40%+ more of my income is considerably more than this.

"By the same logic, no sane VC would invest in a Silicon Valley startup
because engineers there are 3-4x more expensive than most other tech hubs."

They are more expensive because they are the best talent around.

"That's nonsense. By European standards, the startup scene is great at least
in Sweden and Finland."

Compared to what? The statup scene in Michigan is great compared to that of
Iowa or Kansas.

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ed209
I'm confused. I thought you couldn't just pop over to the US and carry on with
your startup there. How did they manage to do that?

~~~
wantrepreneur
bribe anyone

------
adman65
so, follow the money?

~~~
pjsullivan3
exactly :)

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SammyRulez
In Italy is even worst. Local Laws are a jibberish with regulations from the
roman empire and the Napoleon invasion ( not joking). Build an equity based
company requires huge amount of work and capital. But the saddest part is that
investors prefer "stock game" on real company investment. We are used to say
that a young founder is the son of an old founder. It means that in Italy
capital passes as legacy from father to son and never goes to the market, and
often when it does is burnt.

