
Ask HN: How do you cope with incompetent team members? - y0ghur7_xxx
I am working on a not-so-small project in a team of 10 people. We like us all, we are all friends and like working together, but I have a problem with one of them. He likes his job, and he tries to do his best, but he just doesn't seem to get the 10000ft view of things, and loses himself in unimportant stuff, so other team members sometimes have to do his work for him, or help him out on all kinds of stuff, not allowing them to get on with their work (which they are best at).
How do you handle these situations? Should I alienate him and get him out of the group, looking for someone else to do his job? Or should I try to explain the situation to him? What do you think?
======
jm4
You might also try understanding his thought process and give him tasks that
he will excel at. Not everyone gets the 10000 ft view and it's probably not
necessary that everyone in the group think that way. Try to figure out what
his strengths and try to use them to the group's advantage. It might be that
this guy is incapable of doing routine work but is able to complete the near-
impossible jobs. It's very possible that the problem here isn't this
particular person but rather the management style.

In the end, even if it doesn't work out someone should have the decency to
explain exactly what the problem is. Alienating him to get him out of the
group is a pretty dick move.

~~~
arupchak
Alienating or even marginalizing the individual is the worst thing you could
do. You need to act soon and make sure it is the right decision. It is bad for
morale for the rest of your team to have 'the common enemy' even if it gives
something to share.

That being said, booting off the person may not be the best course. He has to
be good at something or this would have come up sooner right? Leverage his
strengths if you can. If your manager is competent, have him address the
individual in the context of self-improvement. This can be a great way to re-
motivate someone or send a signal that things are not working out.

In any case, act soon and with tact. The last thing you want is an angry and
incompetent person on your team.

------
Kirby
You're doing nobody any favors by being passive-aggressive. The employee needs
to know, management needs to know.

Talk to his manager behind closed doors. Be reasonable. Provide data. Metrics
can be misleading, but if you have them, now is the time. (I recall one
coworker at a job, when we looked, had done 12 CVS checkins during a given
period where the average was close to 100 and the next lowest was in the 30s,
or something like that. Illustrative!)

I have seen people improve if someone lights a fire under them! That's his
manager's job. More often this doesn't happen, but it's not uncommon for the
chastised person to start job-hunting and solve the issue fairly quickly
anyway.

I wouldn't confront him directly unless you are his manager. If you are, talk
to him ASAP. Set up a plan with measurable deliverables, and make it clear
that he'll either make the goals or be asked to leave.

Little is as bad for morale as the crappy employee that drags everyone down
and isn't fired. Good managers understand this.

If the company doesn't care, it's just a matter of time before more bad
employees sneak in, and like a cancer the good employees start slacking off
more (because why not? The idiots are never fired!) and you don't have a
fulfilling job anymore. So, that's when you dust off the resume yourself.

Good luck!

~~~
russell
I agree. Trying to alienate one person can poison the whole group dynmamics.
Others could get PO'd at you. People who don't have the 10000 ft view often
are good at details or at administration. Best to find something that he is
good at that helps the group. As others have said this is more properly the
manager's or lead's job. If he ignores it, your hands may be tied.

~~~
Tangurena
I strongly agree with the above 2 comments.

You are describing what a manager is supposed to do. And you don't give enough
details to diagnose the situation. I've seen coworkers who seriously had ADD
(and were on enough prescription meds that their pill jar looked like a bowl
of skittles), and I've seen coworkers who've had problems at home.

The guy with ADD couldn't see the 10000 ft view if you hit him on the head
with it because ... ooh, look, shiny! He _had_ to be micromanaged because his
own steering mechanism was faulty.

May I recommend that you read Dynamics of Software Development? Because it
sounds a lot like you want to flip the bozo bit over there.
[http://www.amazon.com/Dynamics-Software-Development-Jim-
McCa...](http://www.amazon.com/Dynamics-Software-Development-Jim-
McCarthy/dp/1556158238)

------
JeremyChase
It depends on your current relationship, but you should be as straightforward
as possible. You should tell him that you think others work is being
compromised because of the way he is doing things. The best solution is for
him to realize what he is doing wrong and to improve.

The situation will not get better by itself.

------
JayNeely
It sounds like he's not incompetent so much as he isn't efficient. If he were
better at prioritizing, would he be contributing value?

I'd first try to get the group to condense the 10,000-feet view into a single
document, including priorities, and get the group to agree on it (presenting
it as a 'helpful reference').

Then you'd have an easier time saying, "Hey Bill, whatcha working on?" "I'm
really bogged down with <task>." "Huh, is <task> really that important based
on the priorities in <document>?"

If "no": "Awesome, slash it and move on, dude. What's your next task?"

If "yes": "Huh. I'll talk with some of the others, see if they agree or if you
can drop this and move on to something easier."

------
dgallagher
What perspectives do your other teammates have of him? Do they share your same
views, or different views?

They might shed some more light on the situation. Hypothetically: "Oh, yeah,
Joe's a great guy, but you're right. He doesn't really get the 10,0000ft view
of things. He mentioned to me the other week that it hasn't really been
explained to him clearly, so he just focuses on the task at hand. He doesn't
get all of that business stuff either, and really doesn't want to embarrass
himself by admitting it."

\----------

His motivations, and incentives to work, might be different than you think
too. Usually you really have to get to know someone, both at work and in their
personal life, to truly understand what drives them. Money isn't always
everything.

Maybe he's offloading work to other teammates so he can work on his startup
instead, on the job! ;)

\----------

But as others have said, it's great that you're friends! :) Talk to him about
it in a non-threatening way (I know that's tricky sometimes). Ask him how he
feels about things.

If you do the "we're going to have a manager/employee review" thing, and it
comes off negatively from his perspective, that'll probably scare him. When
people are scared they can become unpredictable.

He might start working harder, he might start looking for another job, he
might complain to HR and fight back, etc... That all depends on the person.

Some sort of non-confrontational approach usually works best IMHO.

\----------

Best of luck to you!

~~~
joe_the_user
The co-worker who merely fails to do his or her job has been the least of my
head-aches in the various teams I've been on. The co-workers who are competent
enough to be influential but incompetent enough to insist on poor design and
process decisions are the one who have done the most damage to projects I've
been on.

That said, you really should verify that he is the one who is incompetent.
Pointing the finger at others has also been a clue that a given person isn't
really a good person for a team.

The point about finding something he can do seems good. If someone knows they
aren't good at difficult problems, it can work well since you can give them
"grunt work" and they might be useful.

But really, the most damaging thing isn't someone's degree of incompetence but
their exaggerated idea of their competence. If other people helping him is the
worst effect this person has, he is low on my scale of damaging co-workers.

~~~
Calamitous
"But really, the most damaging thing isn't someone's degree of incompetence
but their exaggerated idea of their competence."

Exactly. The only more damaging person is someone who is openly poisonous and
negative. The two in conjunction are a misery to everyone around them.

Blunder Twin Powers, Activate!

------
pg
Measurement often helps people to focus.

------
10ren
> loses himself in unimportant stuff,

If you mean he is perfecting an aspect of the code that isn't important, that
is a notorious engineer/Asperger's problem, which is a great strength when
properly directed.

It's hard for me to believe that a software developer would have no empathy
for this character flaw, so maybe that's not what you meant.

------
Brushfire
That depends entirely on your role in the team, which isnt clear.

If you are the leader, its your job to get him working correctly or get him
out. If you are not the leader -- ie you are his equal, its a little harder to
go about, and it depends on his, the team, and the leaders personalities and
operating style. There is no hard and fast rule.

But you should do something instead of being pissed off, certainly.

In my situations, I 'cope with incompetent team members' by firing them. But
that is not always such an easy prospect if you are actually friends with this
person, or you arent the boss. If you care more for the friendship than the
job/project, then tell him what you think and help him yourself to get over
it.

------
wastedbrains
I ended up giving a nickname to a coworker like that "destroyer of worlds"
Then I got him bumped to a another team for awhile. Then he ended up back on
my team and I eventually quit. In my exit interview I mentioned him.I am sorry
but keeping an employee around that is pushed from project to project because
no one wants him on his team is bad for the entire company. So I honestly
would bring attention to it eventually.

------
blasdel
There's a way you can address him directly without causing drama: defend him!
"Hey Bob, I'm worried that the boss will think you're wasting time bogged down
in stuff he thinks are unimportant, and that your priority tasks get done by
other people. I don't want you to get in trouble, we should figure out a way
to avoid this."

------
critic
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=424699>

------
herdrick
Anything you can do to improve the productivity of one of the best people will
overwhelm by an order of magnitude even the most heroic improvement of the
doofus. If you are in charge and are allowed to make such decisions, axe him.
Getting another crack at finding a top performer is your best bet.

------
critic
Do what Elaine did: promote him!

------
moe
Just do what everyone does: Apply the dilbert principle and move on. </cyn>

~~~
Raphael
And what might that be?

~~~
moe
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dilbert_Principle>

------
Tichy
Let him create CSS stylesheets for grid layouts without tables.

------
minalecs
what do you do if this is your superior ?

