

Ruby on Rails Workshop for Women - smanek
http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/genderandtech/ruby-on-rails-workshop-for-women/

======
smanek
Can you imagine the reaction if there was a technical conference for men only
- and a women could only attend as the guest of a man?

There are far too many grants/scholarships/opportunities that are explicitly
only open to women or minorities (I'm a minority and it still bothers me). A
hypothesis of implicit discrimination against group A does not justify
explicit discrimination against group B.

This happens all the time in the tech (and Math/Science) community and it
really bothers me. This workshop in particular is one that I would have liked
to attend, but am being excluded from because of my gender.

Frankly, I don't know any women who would be interested in attending a 2-day
RoR workshop so I can't go as a 'guest' - and I don't think that is too
unusual.

~~~
mrshoe
This reminds me of all the clever kids in school during Black History Month
who would ask, "And when is White History Month?"

The canned answer is, "The other 11 months of the year are White History
Months."

This answer has become trite at this point, but the argument at its core
remains valid. Unfortunately, there are serious biases in our society.
Correcting those biases is a worthy goal, and one we should pursue. In the
mean time, we can use Black History Month and Ruby Workshops for Women to
compensate for the biases and at least try to treat the symptoms.

~~~
tptacek
You don't even have to get into a discussion about whether meaningful biases
persist. It's hard to go to a dev workshop if you're extremely rusty because
you've been taking care of kids for 2 years, or because you've been forced by
circumstances to work part-time.

~~~
yummyfajitas
It's also hard to go to a dev workshop if you are rusty because you've spend 2
years studying Judo or 2 years biking around India. Or, for that matter, if
you are a man who's been forced by circumstances to work part time.

Spending 2 years engaging in non-development activities (by choice) is not
limited to women.

~~~
tptacek
Raising a child: a non-development activity undertaken by choice.

Biking around India: a non-development activity undertaken by choice.

Therefore:

We should all support paid family biking-around-India leave.

The logic is unimpeachable!

~~~
yummyfajitas
You haven't actually offered an argument for supporting any kind of paid
leave. But yes, I do believe that job benefits should be decoupled from having
children.

In any case, your mention of circumstances that could apply to people of any
gender is a red herring. It's a workshop for _women_ , not a workshop for
_people returning to the dev workforce after a 2 year hiatus_.

~~~
tptacek
If you re-read the thread, I'm not offering a standalone justification for why
a women's RoR workshop makes sense. Why bother? It's going to happen whether
or not yummyfajitas likes the idea.

I'm offering a reason why a men-only RoR workshop would be offensive when a
women-only RoR workshop isn't. A RoR workshop for people returning from long
trips abroad also wouldn't be offensive, although the equivalence you imply
between the two ideas is weak.

~~~
yummyfajitas
I guess I'm just not following your logic at all. Men-only RoR workshops are
offensive but women-only ones are not because people of both genders sometimes
leave the workforce for a year or three?

~~~
tptacek
Men-only RoR workshops are offensive because there's no reason to have a men-
only RoR workshop.

Former-long-term-traveler-only RoR workshops are not offensive, though they
are a bit silly.

Women-only RoR workshops are not offensive, and I don't think they're silly
either.

------
dschobel
While it's easy to appreciate the intent, there has to be a less backwards way
to accomplish it.

Maybe run a workshop where the behavior/environment you find offensive is
explicitly verboten?

Post it on the walls: this place is "attitude-free, newbie-safe and mama-
friendly" and you'll almost definitely drive away the people you don't want
there.

~~~
kenshi
I don't think that would be as effective as directly marketing an event at a
group of people. A group of people who might feel that traditional events in
that field were just not welcoming.

In fact, I think you'd just end up with a pretty normal tech workshop (male
dominated), but without some of the (rare) 'edgier' content that some of the
Rails guys seem to relish. Business as normal then.

------
kenshi
On a more serious note, I think its a good idea to hold outreach events for
getting minorities working on your platform or industry. There arent many
women in tech, trying to do something to increase the number is a good thing.

A man whining about not being able to attend a single tech event is laughable.
The industry (and the culture of the industry) is so overwhelming male
dominated. It's not like you are missing out on anything.

If events like these help get more women involved and participating in the
industry or community, then more power to them. It certainly beats not doing
anything to attract minorities.

~~~
yummyfajitas
_A man whining about not being able to attend a single tech event is
laughable. The industry (and the culture of the industry) is so overwhelming
male dominated. It's not like you are missing out on anything._

Um, women aren't missing out on anything either. They are just as free to
attend the same industry events as men.

~~~
tumult
Yeah, but I mean, if I took up a sudden interest in crocheting or something
and the best way to get connected and start learning was to go to a crocheting
convention that's 99% female, I'd feel a little awkward/discouraged.

~~~
jamesbritt
" ... I'd feel a little awkward/discouraged."

Why? Seriously.

Because you're a dude? Have you been to mostly-women gatherings before?

I believe that if people go to an event expecting to be treated as an
outsider, they will behave in a way that will discourage people from welcoming
them.

It's true that some number of guys have treated some women as lesser beings at
tech conferences, but it's also true that some number of guys have treated
other guys as lesser beings at tech conferences. Geeks are competitive and
cliquish. It may be that way with people into crocheting, too; I would almost
expect it. But my experience has been that most people are pretty accepting if
you show some persistence and genuine interest.

~~~
tumult
I'm sure it is, and I would probably be fine. It's still intimidating stepping
into unknown territory like that.

~~~
jamesbritt
Oh. I'm sure. I've felt it myself, and still do at some events where I feel
like a noob.

What I don't see mentioned much in the discussion of women and tech gatherings
is that a whole lot of _guys_ feel awkward and unwelcome when attending tech
events.

That doesn't necessarily mean there's no misogyny, but it suggests that the
feeling of unease people feel is not (always) because of sex, but because some
groups just are not so welcoming of outsiders until the outsider demonstrates
some chops or other sign of "belonging".

------
ksvs
I wonder if Harvard policy allows them to discriminate in this way.

~~~
jrockway
Considering that they already discriminate in the admissions process, I doubt
this is a problem.

------
lleahy
There was never any intention to exclude men from the event, but rather enlist
their help in broadening the community. MINSWAN everyone. We're opening the
event up to anyone who would like to attend. Check out the blog post here:
<http://bit.ly/2E9RLm>

------
jrockway
How do they determine whether or not you are a woman?

~~~
gloob
They do type checking.

Edit: The first hit on Google for "ruby type checking" is a post about adding
it to Ruby, which would suggest to me that it's not already in there.
Apologies for my ignorance on the matter.

~~~
Andys
No, they'd do duck typing, which could be a potentially embarrassing
situation.. :-)

~~~
camccann
Better that than type coercion!

------
parse_tree
Misleading headline:

"Men are warmly welcomed when they find a woman who wants to learn Ruby on
Rails who will register and bring a guest."

~~~
Semiapies
That still bars the sort of guys who think discrimination against women in
this industry is "hypothetical".

(OK, fair enough - that's no bug.)

------
kenshi
"We are seeking to create an attitude-free, newbie-safe and mama- friendly
tech event to encourage women to join the Ruby on Rails community."

Wot no rockstar and porn-imagery fueled hijinx? That's no Rails conference.

