

On those "Entitled" Twenty-Somethings - bkudria
http://squashed.tumblr.com/post/164976505/on-those-entitled-twenty-somethings

======
Elepsis
The article linked to at the end
([http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/08/16/our_gim...](http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/08/16/our_gimme_society_97908.html)),
interestingly, is complaining about a group of young people who are asking
Congress for this list of "youth bailouts":

 _Among other things, the coalition wants: free college tuition for low-income
students who are willing to do volunteer work; the right to be covered in
their parents' health insurance program until the age of 26; college loan-
forgiveness programs for young people who agree to serve distressed
communities after graduation; and micro loans for young entrepreneurs to start
their own businesses._

... Frankly, those all sound like far smarter, better initiatives than
propping up failing car manufacturers (which are, coincidentally, dominated by
an older generation) or expanded government health coverage (which also
disproportionately benefits older people). If that's what the 20-somethings of
today "feel entitled" to, I feel pretty good about being a part of the group.

~~~
TomOfTTB
I'm sorry but I disagree (I'm a 20-something but not for much longer so I
really don't think it counts).

Volunteer work is just that. You're supposed to volunteer. It's purpose is to
show people the value of sacrifice. Doing volunteer work for Government
compensation is called being a Government employee. Plus, as a former low
income student I can tell you programs already exist that allow them to go to
college for free and they're called Student Loans. With a part time job you
can pay your living expenses and through grants and loans you can pay for
school with very little problem.

Health care's screwed up and it should be cheaper but I don't want to send the
message that it's ok to live off your parents at 26 years of age.

I don't have a problem with loan forgiveness for graduates that serve
impoverished communities but that already exists for teachers and public
servants.

Finally, while micro-loans seem like a good idea it would almost certainly end
in a huge cash drain with virtually no pay off. Programs like YC work because
they educate while funding. A 22 year old with little work experience who
thinks the answer is to turn to the Government for money stands almost no
chance of creating a successful business imho (and as someone who knows his
fair share of entrepreneurs I've found most will tell you their first venture
failed)

~~~
pyre
> Doing volunteer work for Government compensation is called being a
> Government employee.

So does that make people that collect social security and/or welfare cheques
'government employees?'

~~~
TomOfTTB
Social Security is (or is at least supposed to be) reimbursement of money you
paid into the system. Welfare is a system in which society has chosen to give
people money to live to prevent them from having no money at all so it's a
gift not payment for any service.

~~~
indiejade
_Social Security is (or is at least supposed to be) reimbursement of money you
paid into the system._

This is true only to the extent that it reimburses/rewards/repays people who
actually work. It isn't really based on how much you pay, but the taxable
amount of your income. Also, how long you've been working.

Interesting that this topic should come up; just this morning I received my
yearly information statement from the SSI. Have been working since age 15
(according to the statement, this is how long I've been paying taxes, too).
Actually am pretty astounded at how little "taxable income" I've made in my
lifetime. Has absolutely _nothing_ to do with how hard I've worked.

Maybe people who spend all day in nice air-conditioned offices who complain
about how "unfair" things like Social Security are should try ditching their
suits for a construction belt in the Las Vegas sun for 3 or so years. That's
what my dad did (construction), and he passed away before he ever saw a penny
of his Social Security benefits. Of course. That's how the people in the air-
conditioned offices like it, don't they?

~~~
anamax
> Maybe people who spend all day in nice air-conditioned offices who complain
> about how "unfair" things like Social Security are should try ditching their
> suits for a construction belt in the Las Vegas sun for 3 or so years. That's
> what my dad did (construction), and he passed away before he ever saw a
> penny of his Social Security benefits. Of course. That's how the people in
> the air-conditioned offices like it, don't they?

A SS advocate would point out that your mother probably got something.

I'll point out that the fact that your dad got more screwed than someone else
by SS does not imply that said someone else didn't get screwed as well.

I think that your dad sould have been able to keep the 15% that SS took, or at
least give it to your mom and you. SS advocates think otherwise.

------
moe
Quote: _Apparently people in their 20s are a bunch of entitled whiners._

Judging by the tone of this article I have to say, yes, his premise is dead
on.

Someone fix the headline: College boy finds out that life isn't fair, cries a
river.

~~~
pyre
The point that I took away is that there are plenty of people in their 20's
that bust their butts. When the older generation is complaining about the
'20-something whiners' the tone of those rants is usually about how little the
'20-something whiners' do (i.e. they sit at home and watch tv/smoke pot/play
videogames/etc rather than bettering themselves through education/etc).

~~~
gehant
Entitlement involves having an inflated view of oneself - based on what's said
in the article, sounds about right.

Just seems odd that the author complains about not being able to find a job,
yet takes zero responsibility for his situation.

When I graduated college (into a shitty job market) many job offers were
delayed, rescinded, or simply unavailable - I don't remember blaming everyone
else.

~~~
pyre
I don't know that he's necessarily blaming the older generation so much as
he's pointing out that the older generation made all sorts of promises such
as, "Unless you get a university degree, you'll never get a good job" and
"Once you have a university degree the job market is smooth sailin'" which are
obviously not true. And now the older generation is complaining that the
younger generations -- raised on such 'truths' and promises -- are saying
"Where's this cushy job I was supposed to get with my college degree?"

------
jasoncalacanis
1\. It's fairly clear a decent portion of the 20 somethings coming out of
school now are entitled and don't work hard. 2\. It's fairly clear that a lot
of the 30 and 40 somethings out there came out of school, gave up their souls
and worked for the man and regret it--in other words they weren't entitled
enough. 3\. It's fairly clear this story has nothing to do with the folks
reading Hacker News who are a self-selected group of entrepreneurial folks who
are hard working and self-motivated.

Please move along, nothing to see here.

------
mmt
The author was lied to, but not by me or my kind.

I actually vaguely remember hearing the same lies, but not from my parents, at
least not without the "nobody owes you anything" caveat.

It didn't take me long to realize, intuitively, if not explicitly, that
finishing college wouldn't help me get the job I wanted. Today, obviously, it
might not even help me get any job.

Even absent an entrepreneurship opportunity, I dropped out, and I don't regret
it, despite the stigma it carried in the computer industry, well into the dot-
com boom.

I'm definitely embarrassed for my generation that we perpetuated the lies,
rather than encouraging choices, including self-employment or learning a
trade.

~~~
ryanwaggoner
False dichotomy. You can go to college _and_ start a business or learn a
trade. And it gives you way more choices and options, not to mention enriching
your life.

~~~
mmt
Assuming infinite time and resources, it's absolutely a false dichotomy.

However, especially from the standpoint of a graduating high school senior, it
is very real.

I think there's an implied "first" (or "next" after secondary school) in all
of this.

------
dlytle
The older generation is bitter because they heavily invested according to a
specific system of advancement, lived a good life because of it, and now these
modern kids act like the system was always broken.

The younger generation is bitter because they heavily invested according to a
specific system of advancement, discovered that the rewards provided by the
system have fundamentally changed, and blame the geezers for steering them
down the wrong path.

Neither generation wants to accept that the rules have changed and don't pay
off the way they used to. That's why they're trying to find someone to blame.
(Other than themselves, of course.)

------
jsz0
I don't feel all that entitled but I can understand why the "get good grades,
goto a good college, have a wonderful life" crowd feels short changed. That
message was drilled into their heads by teachers, family, friends, etc. I
would probably feel entitled in that situation. You did all the "right things"
and aren't seeing the promised benefits. No one mentioned sometimes it takes a
while or just never happens. For any political issues like health care young
people make themselves, and issues they care about, irrelevant by not voting
in sufficiently large numbers. Again, the promise of democracy doesn't really
live up to reality. I suspect it's just a common generational problem. In your
20's you're young enough to remember carefree youth but not successful enough
yet to see your own life as living up to your expectations.

------
bkudria
Before everybody starts complaining, yes, I know that this is, on the surface,
about the health care debate. However, before complaining that this isn't HN-
material, consider for a moment the prevailing expectation college graduates
have: "I need to get a job, which I can now do because I have a college
degree." The author doesn't even consider entrepreneurship.

Can we as a society do better, so more people realize that that no one owes
them anything, and any promises that were made to them were probably made by
the well-meaning, but ultimately un- or misinformed?

~~~
karzeem
A lot of 20-somethings — especially the ones with natural intelligence — grew
up jumping through hoops. An adult puts up a hoop, you jump through it. A
clear series of steps. Take the tests, ace the classes, get into the good
college. It's clear what you're evaluated on, and it's clear what you have to
do to ace the evaluation.

But once kids get out of college, no one's putting up hoops anymore. No one's
telling you "Do x, then y will happen." And a lot of people have no idea what
to do if the hoops aren't being put up by someone else. Making your own hoops
— being able to do _anything_ and not necessarily getting clear, immediate
positive reinforcement that you've chosen correctly and done well — is simply
not something that a lot of people are good at.

Maybe that's related to the upbringing of today's 20-somethings and maybe it's
not, but being a member of that group myself, it does seem like a widespread
phenomenon.

~~~
yardie
^^^ This. My experience of people at college could classify them into 2 types.
Those that were dealt a shitty hand in life and were doing everything possible
to get a new deck. And those that knew the game and were just playing along.
Do X and you'll receive Y. Good grades means a good job. College is,
predominantly, made of the later. The third group of slackers doesn't really
count and were gone by the 2nd year.

I was dealt the shitty hand. Single working mom with more kids than resources
to handle them. A broke elementary school. I learned early on the social
contract between jobs and employees was broken when my mom was laid off and we
were constantly fighting the water, electricity, and telephone company to
maintain basic services. I signed up for every afterschool program available
because I hated having to go to an unairconditioned home in the Florida heat.
God must have a wicked sense of humor, my reluctance to stay home meant I did
academically well. And eventually getting into a good uni.

When I got to university I was incredibly envious of those around me. Who had
the resources to buy a computer when I certainly couldn't. They had everything
in life handed to them. I wished I had a tutor but it was expensive. I wished
I had a scheduled life because it seemed easier than trying to figure it out.
I wished my family wasn't 1000 miles away because for the first time I felt
alone. All of these things meant I had to fend for myself and take nothing for
granted.

When I see how life is for kids lately I feel sorry for them. Everything is
planned out around them with little input from them. You rarely see a kid sign
up for basketball or soccer without the parents nearby. I remember signing my
moms signature on so many things that when she really did sign something they
thought it was a forgery. I remember forging health insurance forms because I
couldn't play soccer without it and I knew we didn't have it. God if I would
have gotten seriously injured we would have been fucked.

They are told to complete a task and expect a reward. I was told to do
something because it had to be done. As my mom would say, "Go to school or I
will beat your ass!". Life is actually like that. It can be rewarding, but
fundamentally life doesn't reward you for doing a good job. You are trying to
avoid getting your ass kicked by life.

------
TomOfTTB
Well, I wouldn't hire him. Look, no one questions this is a hard moment in
time to Graduate. It's just bad luck for those who are entering the job
market. But guess what, Life isn't fair. Sometimes your handed lemons. Not
understanding that is what makes this guy just as entitled as the articles
claim he is.

My advice to him would be get what ever job he can for now, continue to
perfect his skills and learn to be grateful for what he does have. If he does
that I can almost guarantee he'll find a good job. I can't say exactly when (I
can't predict the economy) but it will be before 99% of his fellow 20
somethings

~~~
pyre
> Not understanding that is what makes this guy just as entitled as the
> articles claim he is.

Does that make him 'entitled' or just naive?

> My advice to him would be get what ever job he can for now, continue to
> perfect his skills and learn to be grateful for what he does have.

Not always true. I've worked many jobs that suck the life out of you. And I've
known people that have languished in such jobs because once you get home you
don't feel like doing anything but shutting down. Thankfully I'm in a much
better job now.

------
hooande
So let me get this straight... people told you to study hard and over achieve,
and now you're upset because things aren't as easy as you were promised?

Welcome to the real world.

Sad Fact #1: Everything people tell you isn't true. Even your parents,
religious leaders and teachers will tell you things that aren't entirely true,
mostly because they have their own motivations.

Sad Fact #2: You can do everything the right way and still fail. Mostly
because there are a lot of people who's parents also told them to study hard
and overachieve, and by the nature of the system you can't all win big.

I had to learn these lessons the hard way, too. Everyone does, sooner or
later. Some people respond by taking another look around and wondering what
else they don't know. Other people start to demand the respect they were
promised without having yet accomplished anything impressive. If you're in
that second group you have what they call a "sense of entitlement", no matter
what the previous generation told you.

------
sjsivak
Is anyone else really curious what sort of degree the author of this article
has? I just graduated in May and almost everyone I know with a CS or
engineering degree found jobs pretty easily. It was only the bottom of the
barrel that struggled, and even most of those people still managed to find
something in their field.

~~~
bdittmer
I was wondering the exact same thing. That BA in a philosophy wasn't such a
good idea after all, eh skippy? :D

~~~
angstrom
I wouldn't say that. It's helping him expound upon the entitled morass that is
his life. He'll have reached true zen when he realizes he could've saved $40K
and said "Fuck You." to the world without college.

------
edw519
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Like OP, I busted my butt in pursuit of a better future, graduated with an BS
in Math and an MBA just to work at Denny's for 18 months before finding my
first programming job.

But I can't imagine ever writing a piece like this.

I have only one "understanding". No one is ever going to give me anything, so
I just have to suck it up and get it for myself.

If OP perseveres for what he wants as well as he whines, problem solved.

Oh and by the way, I got my MBA and worked at Denny's in 1978, so STFU and get
busy.

~~~
teeja
Me too, graduated with a degree in the hard sciences, 1974. (They're called
that for a reason.)

Then I worked as a fry cook, then a dishwasher, then a radio station
librarian, then a DJ, then a lumberjack, then a carpenter. THEN I got a real
job.

Don't misunderstand: kids graduating right now landed in the shit. You're
right: the greedy bastards have worked us over good. But guess what kid: we're
all in it, and it's always been that way.

Heard of anyone who worked all their life to build up a 500K retirement and
just lost 60% of it? Two decades ago I listened to a guy tell me that he paid
into a pension for 30 years, and when his company went down, it was ALL GONE.

Rodney Dangerfield: "It's a jungle out there." Bank on it.

~~~
andreyf
Things are much better now, then. For every person complaining, there are a
lot of people working quietly - I graduated a year ago, and I had no trouble
finding a job (and then switching it a couple of months ago) - but that's just
one example, maybe I got lucky. Still, I can't think of a single college
friend whom I could honestly call smart who can't found a job. Yes, I'm sure
the people that wasted their time in college drinking and cheating didn't get
much out of it, and are having a tough time now, but I can hardly feel sorry
for them.

~~~
nostrademons
That's what I see among my friends, but I wonder if that holds across all
socioeconomic strata. It seems like this recession hit the upper reaches of
society first - finance, consulting, lawyers, universities and venture capital
- and then worked its way down to regular unemployment. The news now is that
finance is recovering (thanks to government bailouts), but the consumer
picture is getting _worse_. Retail and manufacturing are taking it in the chin
now.

Edit: Actually, no, I can think of several friends in the class of 09 that
graduated from a top college and still can't find jobs. They're in non-
technical fields though; maybe tech is doing better, but non-tech is still in
the dumps.

~~~
andreyf
The examples I was thinking of were all either CS, Math, or hard sciences - a
lot of them chose to go to grad school, though.

------
baddox
If he feels he's entitled simply because he worked hard and did what his
parents told him, he clearly had (and has) some unrealistic expectations.

------
hexis
These twenty-somethings want it to be one way, but it's the other way.

~~~
ojbyrne
Damn I miss that show.

------
paul9290
Why is this even getting voted up?

This guy needs to join that girl in her silly lawsuit she filed against her
college. I'd never hire her nor this whiner. Though maybe this is there way of
thinking of the box and getting attention. They say any kind of attention is
good(publicity), yet for me I still would not hire either!

------
etravers
And now a few words from a parent...

We tell you these things so you will apply yourself and have what it takes
when/if you get the opportunity. There is a diff between flipping burgers
because [the market is tight| you're working through college| any other
hurdle] and flipping burgers because you aren't qualified to do anything else.
We remember questioning "when will I need to know X when I grow up?". Nine
times out of ten they are teaching something completely useless, but it is
something you have to work your way through.

I tell my kids that the majority of what is taught in school is bullsh|t, but
it is something they must/will do because if they do not they will have to
answer to me. I tell them that the most important parts of school aren't
remembering why some old dead guy crossed the Delaware. The most important
things are learning how to solve problems and think for themselves. I tell
them the controlling, idiotic teachers they are dealing with now are just like
the controlling, idiotic bosses and coworkers they will be dealing with when
they enter the job market so they better get used to it.

I teach them to take responsibility for their own screw-ups and short comings
and the importance of remaining focused and humble when they are the hero of
the moment.

It sounds as though some kids get the sugar and spice version. Now that you
know the truth adjust accordingly and get on with it!

------
calcnerd256
He mentions generational justice. Does that even make sense? The older
generation is going to die first, and then the one that was younger gets to
take their turn. A revolving system like that doesn't have to have each pair
of adjacent agents breaking even with respect to one another if the inequities
are passed on. Well, I'm not saying I like the idea that we should be
oppressed and then take our turn to oppress the next group; I'm just saying
the notion of "generational justice" doesn't seem to make a whole lot of
sense.

~~~
chairface
I think it makes sense. Some generations are bigger than others, and the
bigger ones (like the one this guy is complaining about) can throw their
weight around at the expense of the others. They carry more political weight.

I, for instance, was born in a smaller generation. The baby boomers will
control things for a decade or two more, and after they start dying, those
younger than me will become dominant.

I'm not really that concerned about this - I came to terms with it long ago.
But it's still there, and I can understand if some people get bitter about
things like this.

------
chubbard
Knowing everything you know now. Would you not do your homework, participate
in extracurricular activities, play sports, learn to play the piano, apply and
attend a good college? If not then what? Do you feel you wasted your time
doing those things?

~~~
squashed
My article. Yes I would do it again. I would probably take Spanish instead of
Latin. That would have been useful.

All those things are good things to do in themselves--and many will be useful
in the future. That said, It's a rough time for a lot of people graduating now
--and it's ridiculous to see older people pretend that they're having trouble
because they did something wrong.

------
pj
The problem is that twenty somethings don't vote and silver hairs do.

I was watching footage from the town hall meetings around the country for the
health care reform and noticed only _one_ person without gray hair there and
she was still old.

------
mynameishere
I believe private insurance for 20-somethings is very cheap.

Anyway, health care. I think old people understand that the system is kind-of,
sort-of insolvent already, and that expanding it will probably push it over
the cliff at a bad time for them. Being shrill and ranty is all well and good,
but other people have their worries, too.

~~~
krschultz
It's not.

~~~
unlinkedlist
I'm perplexed by this. I pay $44/month for Blue Shield California health
insurance. Prior to that I live in Washington state and paid only $37/month.
Clearly, I'm a recent graduate, and I'm young and healthy, so lots of people
won't be able to get that sort of policy. But the article specifically
addresses young, healthy, recent graduates!

For some reason the Blue Shield website isn't responding for me right now, but
I just checked out Anthem CA's website (the other Blue Cross/Blue Shield
company in CA) and they have a bunch of plans listed right off the bat that
start at $80:
[https://express.rwsol.com/roi/getCCRecommendations.do?produc...](https://express.rwsol.com/roi/getCCRecommendations.do?productLineId=135&productLine=Medical)

Now, is $80 really that expensive for health insurance?

~~~
cscotta
Not bad if you can get approved.

------
brianmckenzie
Everything your parents told you was a lie. Well, not really - raising
children is fundamentally different than raising adults.

Only adults can raise themselves.

Do the drugs. Have underage sex. Steal a car. Get into a fistfight.

After this, you will realize that life is not prescriptive/deterministic.

------
kp212

      All I can say is, and I've been working over 8 years, if I was graduating college in this economy with 50+k in loans, no job, the worst UE rate in 20+ years, I'd be pissed as well. Not saying its right, not saying its wrong, just saying...

------
maximumwage
What is the correct attitude that twenty-somethings should have? So far I have
a few guesses: work on creating value for the world, be relentlessly
resourceful, focus on cause and effect instead of whether something is "right"
or "wrong", etc. Am I on the right track?

~~~
adrianwaj
Learn how to look at yourself from the other side of the table and build
bridges, take, but also give equally.

------
vitaminj
_If you go to the bank and deposit $20, you are entitled to get your $20 from
the bank. If you fulfill your half of a contract, you are entitled to the
other party’s performance._

Well, if you enter into a verbal agreement with someone, you're not
necessarily entitled to anything. When your parents told you to work hard at
school and college with the promise that the world will take care of you, you
didn't enter into a legitimate contract. So despite your whining, the world
doesn't owe you shit.

------
californiaguy
No, fuck this guy and his bullshit attitude. I'm 25 and I work over 12 hours a
day in my technology services company and startup projects and I make a good
god damn living for myself and so does everyone who puts in time for our
company.

It's his problem for believing the bullshit "adults" told him all his life. I
knew from day one it was complete and utter nonsense. I bet he learned to
blame others from them too. He should only blame himself for his lack of
foresight.

I also have a degree from a good university but the difference is I used that
time as an opportunity to extend my social and professional network instead of
counting on a fucking piece of paper to grant me magical opportunities.
College is what it's _always_ been: a club for the children of privilege to
come together and make relationships. If you treat it as such, the value of an
"education" is apparent the minute you step foot on campus. Don't waste your
time going to a bullshit school without any smart or wealthy people. Just skip
it unless you can go to a good school.

~~~
blhack
What company do you work for, I'd love a job...

See, the way it is where I work is that you better fucking have your laptop
with you 24/7 because if one of the duct-tape and chicken-wire projects that
you're required to support goes down...well then hollly shit it better be
fixed like RIGHT. FREAKING. NOW. (never mind that these outages and crashes
happen at companies that we are customers of...as in: they won't let me into
their FTP server to fix it when it is just fucking dropping connections for no
reason).

But by golly, we better be glad to even HAVE a job! See, if we whine, or don't
perform 100% all the time every day (even during our "vacation") there are a
few hundred qualified applicants ready to take our job for the same pay and
the same requirements (these people will burn out in a couple of
months...again...and the cycle will continue).

How did this start? Too many people were told that they were special. Too many
degrees were given out, and now the job market is flooded with people. We have
a surplus of "skills".

How is it that people can't wrap their head around man-hours as a commodity?
De beers knows this, they keep vaults full of diamonds locked away in a
basement in NYC because they know that if they dump all those diamonds on the
market, the price will get driven down.

We've been screwed. I'm sorry, this isn't entitlement. This is facts.

We've been screwed.

~~~
beza1e1
I would call it a surplus of skills, but a surplus of paper. The problem is
that the paper you get at the end of your higher education isn't worth that
much anymore. Experience is still worth something, though. So an employer is
better of to take the experience indicator, since the education indicator
isn't that useful anymore.

The problem isn't that there are a few hundred-qualified applicants. The
problem is that an employer has no tool to filter those applicants, so the
applicants can't do anything to be more qualified than the others and the
process becomes quite random. My thesis is that given a good graduation result
the next best thing is to learn socials skills and tricks in the interview
process. In the end HR makes a gut decision.

------
BearOfNH
For every complaint about the benefits of seniority, networking, etc., there's
an older guy (and usually it IS a guy) who is laid off so a cheaper kid can be
hired to replace him.

Of course if you've got a liberal arts degree from a diploma mill, that won't
be you.

------
c00p3r
He will say "Thanks for that" to his parents when he will be "thirty-
something".

