
When the Genius Men of Silicon Valley Suddenly Don't Seem So Smart - nsaslideface
https://theintercept.com/2016/10/19/when-the-genius-men-of-silicon-valley-suddenly-dont-seem-so-smart/
======
cypher303
I rarely comment on the internet, but HN is one of the few sites that I
frequent during micro-breaks at work, and this sort of content is making me
feel like HN is becoming a NSFW site to visit. My concern has nothing to do
with your stated opinion in the article, but rather that the article doesn't
provide enough technical value to warrant being safe for me to read while on
the job. Articles that, for instance, inform me about a root key update, or a
critical vulnerability in the Linux kernel, provide immediate value to me and
my employer. Opinion pieces like these though, not only lack technical value,
but are a time (money) drain on my company. Please keep HN safe for work for
those of us who care about things like that.

~~~
angersock
If you actually value technical content, there are better sites. HN has been
catering primarily to entrepreneurs for the last several years. The community
normalized political discussion and content marketing a while back, and from
those depths it is difficult to return.

I have theories on how sites like this evolve, but will refrain from brain-
dumping unless folks are interested.

~~~
ceterum_censeo
I'd like to hear your theories. Also, a few suggestions for the sites that you
mention.

~~~
angersock
Sure.

When I joined this site 5 years ago, I justified my viewing it at work as a
one-order-removed from my job. I learned a _lot_ , I was exposed to web
development and other things for the first time, and I eventually caught the
entrepreneur itch and pursued it because HN had given me both the knowledge
and the inspiration. I thank pg and YC for that.

That said, over the last few years I've noticed some things:

 _Content quality is getting drastically less technical_. In the submission
guidelines, the rule is nominally "Anything that good hackers would find
interesting.". The problem is that people are focusing on "interesting" not on
"good hackers". Often stories that seem like good reads but are utterly
unrelated to computing get posted here, just because somebody wanted to read
about politics or history or nifty product demos or popsci clickbait. Things
that should never make it here are put up just because they are interesting,
not because they are interesting-to-good-hackers. This is an anti-pattern.

 _Content marketing clutters up the submissions_. A lot of stories here are
basically junk "Hey check out our API (and buy our service!)" or "Let me write
some platitudes about vaguely software-related stuff so that you'll click my
company links at the end of the post". This sort of growth-hacking is exactly
the playbook espoused by YC-style startups, which is fine, but in this case
they're making HN less valuable for all of us by treating it like a cheap
clearinghouse for advertising to devs. At times the frontpage feels like a
less green, easier-to-read feed of TechCrunch (and that sucks!).

 _The users don 't respect each other when submitting stories_. A lot of users
clearly see the site as a way of throwing up links to self-promote or to ask
dumb questions or to navel-gaze on Valley drama that doesn't affect everyone
else. They don't really contribute outside of their own submission threads,
they post clickbait, they do drive-by advertising, and generally waste
bandwidth.

 _The users don 't respect each other when writing comments_. It's very
difficult to have a civil discussion in most threads these days when you have
a significant difference of opinion, because you get downvoted remorselessly.
It also seems to me that the default attitude of assuming good-faith posting
and engaging with the same courtesy has gone away, being replaced with lazy
baiting and _ad hominem_ attacks and namecalling--things which people get away
with as long as they are following the HN crowd orthodoxies, which makes it
even more harmful.

 _There is active suppression of user opinions from other orthodoxies_. Flag-
killing and heavy moderation serve to create an echo chamber, but here more
importantly to radicalize and make even more obnoxious and disrespectful rude
posters. If somebody has had multiple threads detached because they rubbed the
mods the wrong way (hi dang!), they're less likely to actually try and write
good replies. Instead, you end up with a bunch of garbage sockpuppet accounts
or just outright spam as people get frustrated at being ignored and no longer
feel like they need to craft words and be polite. The site doesn't respect the
users, so the users don't respect the site. It's rubbish.

Anyways, as for other sites, I could probably give you some via the email in
my profile. For obvious reasons--e.g., I don't want to make it easy for the
same bad posters and culture that has pervaded this site to spread--I won't
mention them here for the lazy.

------
angersock
So, up front, I think there is more than a little schadenfreude to be enjoyed
here. I'll skip that, though.

The main thing here is that we chose this future. We built platforms for 140
sniping, and we built censorship tools that helped enable filter bubbles. We
built ad tools to monetize rage and not journalism.

We bent over prostrate at the ideas of "equality", diversity, and freedom--all
with the best of intentions! We ousted Brendan Eich, we gave Thiel a pass
because he was outed by Gawker, and now?

Now they're going against the guys that sign our checks and cheerlead our
endeavors.

If _this_ is finally a step too far, if _this_ is a gross misrepresentation of
reality or a hit piece, we're late to the party. The time to have avoided this
was years ago.

Bunch of hypocrites.

------
Torgo
Voting for the lesser of two evils is a tactical voting maneuver and you don't
necessarily believe anything at all about what a candidate affirmatively
supports. This is as applicable to one side as the other. Almost all of my
friends are supporting the same candidate, and none of them are doing so
because of her positions.

------
blackflame7000
In this election, the only people who don't seem so smart(besides the
candidates) are people who insist on being oblivious to their own candidates
severe faults. There is plenty wrong with either candidate and the only people
who look foolish are those who insist on trying to shine a shit and sell it as
gold.

------
ebcode
>Trump is an ideological figure with very few actual political views. His
popularity is due almost entirely to his cultivation of American hate.

I think this is spot on. If someone says something hateful, and I retweet it,
am I not also saying something hateful? Say I don't retweet the actual
comment, but instead respond w/ "Have some money." Is that not still an
endorsement of the hateful speech?

Ultimately, I think we can view hatred as a kind of ignorance and fearfulness
of the unknown, and therefore as a kind of stupidity.

It logically follows that endorsing a stupid candidate is itself a form of
stupidity.

~~~
DoofusOfDeath
I'm not sure your conception of "hatred" would cover all the bases to your
satisfaction.

For example, most people (perhaps including you) feel hatred to many of
Hitler's actions during WWII. But I doubt people feel that way due to
ignorance or fear of the unknown.

~~~
ebcode
Anger is an emotion I try to avoid entirely. If I could only choose one word
to describe my feelings toward Hitler, it would be "pity".

I'm not saying anger is never warranted, but holding onto those feelings and
acting on them usually just brings more pain into the world. I'd like to think
that The Allies won the second World War not for their hatred of Hitler, but
rather for their love of humanity. But maybe I'm being naive.

“Anger is an acid that can do more harm to the vessel in which it is stored
than to anything on which it is poured.” -- Mark Twain

------
ar15saveslives
> Ellen Pao, the former CEO of Reddit who was effectively ousted by the site’s
> users because she’s an Asian American woman

Sorry what?

~~~
Randgalt
That was her side of the story. Reddit had a different side. This line shows
what an awful article this is. Utterly un-objective. Here's some reference on
Ellen Pao: * [http://www.vanityfair.com/style/scandal/2013/03/buddy-
fletch...](http://www.vanityfair.com/style/scandal/2013/03/buddy-fletcher-
ellen-pao) *
[https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2015-07-13/reddit-s-...](https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2015-07-13/reddit-
s-ellen-pao-can-only-blame-herself)

~~~
whamlastxmas
As someone who read the entire Pao shitshow on reddit, I literally never once
saw anyone mention or make racist/sexist remarks about her being Asian or a
woman. This is frankly remarkable considering how shitty the internet can be.
This isn't to say those remarks didn't happen, I am 100% sure they did, but it
was less than 0.0001% of the sentiment.

------
relics443
I'm getting sick of seeing SV expose how many stupid people are among its
ranks (on both sides). The whole world used to think we were smart people.

Yay, election year ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

------
ar15saveslives
For the author, "smart" means "do as I say, now".

------
whack
I am usually far more civil, but this article is idiotic. The idea of having
political litmus tests as a condition of employment, is the kind of idiotic
lunacy I would expect from Trump, not his detractors.

~~~
whamlastxmas
Really? Because overwhelmingly the sentiment I have heard is Hillary
supporters saying they would fire or de-friend anyone who's a Trump supporter.
Trump supporters seem to dislike Hillary, not Hillary supporters.

~~~
whack
Well, it's a lot easier to discriminate when you're in the majority/winning
side.

But yeah, my previous comment was referencing Trump directly, not his
supporters. I have far more respect for the average Trump voter than I do for
Trump himself.

------
sharkjacobs
I would be upset if any company fired a developer or even manager for having
the wrong political opinions. But if a company broke ties with a part time
partner, who was a public representative of the company, because the partner
publicly, actively, and materially support a presidential candidate who the
company publicly believe "represents a real threat to the safety of women,
minorities, and immigrants ... the Constitution, the Republic, ... human
decency ... [and] national security" then I don't think that's a problem.

------
abysmallyideal
Isn't SiliconnValley just the wall Street of techbro snowflakes and startup
culture? Who cares what they say.

These billionaires don't matter. They don't fund the core advancements that
matter, they're just data traders. Even if they pooled all their money it
would be dwarfed by real technologists. Not political hucksters and new wall
Street aka SV.

Surely, SV is just a cliquey jock and yacht club. Bunch of grandfathered
aristocratic rich kids. What a joke.

------
samfbid
Is there a reason this post got removed from the HN index?

------
rboyd
Advocating firing and industry shunning over political opinion seems way more
dangerous to me than offensive speech. What are we becoming?

~~~
sharkjacobs
Does advocating firing and industry shunning seem more dangerous than
advocating torture, or advocating imprisonment of political opponents?

~~~
rboyd
With so many legitimate attacks to launch against Trump, generalizing his
threats of holding Hillary accountable for the emails and equating this with
imprisonment of political opponents seems so awkward to me.

------
Randgalt
I've never seen so much question begging in my life. Maybe, just maybe, Thiel
doesn't believe the charges against Trump. Additionally, the hypocrisy is
appalling. People gladly write checks to Hillary Clinton who over the past 30+
years has defended, provided cover and attacked the accusers of her husband
who is in the exact same league as Donald Trump.

~~~
whamlastxmas
>charges

"Allegations" is maybe the better word here. I hate HRC and I think it's very
likely Trump has sexually assaulted at least one woman before, but I also
think it's shitty to start a political narrative based on hearsay and the type
of empty gloating that lots of men do in private.

------
trhway
it isn't about smartness in the sense of IQ. It is just completely different
view on where society/economy and the whole civilization should go. Thiel vs.
Musk. Conservative collapse vs. progressive expansion. Ant/termite colony
(like those that have been at the same place for 1000+ years) vs.
interplanetary civilization. Conformal uniformity vs. diversity in the widest
sense of the word. Succumbing to the fear of change vs. embracing and riding
that fear like a wave, converting the fear into the source of energy.

~~~
throwaway274739
This.

