
Hey Entrepreneur – Please Don’t Get an MBA - volandovengo
http://naysawn.com/hey-entrepreneur-please-dont-get-an-mba/
======
rayiner
This is woefully misguided. I'd much rather have a Harvard MBA and have access
to that network than be a YC alum and have access to that network. A top MBA
buys you instant credibility with business people (i.e. potential customers),
it exposes you to the business needs of a wide variety of fields (i.e.
potential products/services), and it gives you access to a wide variety of
people who can help you out, not just with the ins-and-outs of running a
startup, but with financial issues, management issues, legal issues, and the
whole range of topics that affect a small business.

I also found one quote interesting because it reflects such a myopic view of
entrepreneurship: "Despite everything learned about business in MBA programs
only 5% of graduates go on to start a business upon graduation!" It seems that
in the author's mind, the only potential entrepreneurs are fresh graduates
(i.e. people who don't know anything about anything). Did it occur to the
author that many people go into an industry, learn how it works and build a
network, then start a business once they have a strong foundation in place?
Maybe that's not how your typical web startup works, but there is a whole
world of entrepreneurship beyond that niche.

~~~
volandovengo
Fair point the 5% stat only reflects what people do immediately upon
graduation. With that said, most of the richest people in the world have very
little formal education, so an MBA is clearly not a requirement.

~~~
freyr
That said, the person with an MBA earns much more, on average, than the person
with very little formal education.

Certainly it's not a requirement, and spending two years getting an MBA may
just slow you down and mire you in debt. On the other hand, it could be a
valuable asset to fall back on if a person realizes their app isn't a real
business or entrepreneurship isn't for them.

------
mvkel
After reading 95% of the books outlined in the "Personal MBA Reading List,"
I'd say this post is about 50% true. The first point about the knowledge you
learn is wrong; an MBA curriculum has many more useful topics that an
entrepreneur can use.

Learning how to develop a business plan, forecast financials, develop
consistent methodologies for leading, etc., are all covered under an MBA
curriculum (or, they were covered in depth in all the books I read), and all
are valuable when it comes to running a company.

Starting a company up? Maybe not, but having a solid foundation to rely on
once the revenue starts coming in is absolutely included in an MBA program.

That said, I mentioned the Personal MBA Reading List above; I made it a goal
to read the entire list within 18 months and got pretty close. I started a
company first, and went on my reading journey second, but if nothing else, the
material helped validate what I was doing, and filled in a lot of gaps where I
hadn't learned anything experientially.

~~~
guylhem
That's a great way of doing it. I found the "actual experience" just made the
learning more important, if only because it is revealing the gaps, filling
them, and helping me move forward.

------
davidwparker
As someone who actually has my MBA (and is finishing my MS in Computer
Science), I disagree with this.

For example, in my MBA at the University of Colorado (CU), for:

#1 What you actually learn: there are a ton of startup/entrepreneurship
classes: Startup Feasibility, Business Plan, Startup Execution,
Entrepreneurial Projects, Entrepreneurial Finance, Entrepreneurial Marketing,
just to name a few.

#2 In state tuition turns out to be around $25k/year. That's $50k total, which
is 1/3 the cost stated (granted, CU is no ivy league).

#3 Making up what people actually do (agreeing to jobs for an additional +2
years) doesn't necessarily mean it's what everyone does.

#4 The right network. Boulder is the home of TechStars, The Unreasonable
Institute, as well as a ton of other startups. It has a huge tech scene,
outdoor industry, natural+organics, and green energy scene- all of which have
a host of startups.

#5 Just because other people don't start businesses with their MBAs doesn't
mean you can't.

I understand it's common for a lot of places like HN to dog on MBAs, but as an
engineer who finished my MBA (but is staying an engineer), I think people
underestimate some of the value of getting an MBA. Granted, it really depends
on _where_ you go, but there is such a thing as a good MBA.

~~~
snitzr
I also have an MBA and I read hacker news.

I'm not going to tell people to get an MBA or a CS degree or take some kind of
sabbatical. My MBA found me a better job even before I graduated (I went to
evening classes). So I consider it to be helpful to me. I paid my tuition as I
went.

Still, an MBA pushed me to start learning programming after seeing the MBA job
market vs. programmer job market. Plus I was just used to learning at night
after 3 years of evening classes.

If you don't want to get an MBA, maybe consider having one on your team. Don't
think you can give yourself an MBA by reading HN. Most of the articles on HN
relating to business are simplistic overviews of some of the basic concepts
they teach MBAs. This includes anything related to finance, economics,
marketing, branding, communication, leadership, critical thinking, and public
speaking. It's disappointing when I go to a meetup and the speaker(s) cannot
communicate their great ideas or businesses.

Other than the stress of school and work, the worst thing about getting an MBA
was the blank stares when I mentioned something about Star Trek in class once
(something like, "This case is just like Kobayashi Maru"). Maybe I'm
different, then.

Don't have too much of a negative view about MBA people or the degree. They're
closely related to computer folks. For instance, like CS, it helps to like
math to be good in finance.

------
jborden13
This post is maybe the worst thing I've read on HN. Getting an MBA drastically
shifted the way that I analyze and attack business problems. The vast array of
tools it provides for decision-making has been invaluable during the process
of building my company.

I worked while doing my MBA, because I had a job that I loved and the lost
salary didn't make sense. To the author's credit, I went to a more traditional
school and the vast majority of my peers were not interested in pursuing a
career as an entrepreneur - most went the traditional route of Finance or
Marketing. But I was there to learn Entrepreneurship & Business and it was
irrelevant what to me what my peers focus and drivers were. I've been out 6
years and have built a nice company since graduating, but still rely heavily
on the things I worked so hard to learn while getting the MBA.

The network can be beneficial, but if you are depending upon it for success as
an entrepreneur, then you will be sadly disappointed. In short, more education
is always good - even if you can't see the immediate and direct correlation to
your current efforts.

------
guylhem
Basically, the article says that an MBA will divert you away from
entrepreneurship - ok that I can agree with, but not the "don't get an MBA"
title.

There might be an education bubble. There might be an anti-education bias -
especially here.

But even with the best online tools and classes, what you learn with a
standard curriculum is just better - that's the sad truth, and it is even
truer if you are a self directed learner and don't care about the grades.

Case in point - I got interested in economics and started reading books - then
followed online courses and videos from prestigious universities and so on.
Purchased textbooks, etc. I worked seriously, but I soon realized that the
freedom to dig on subjects I thought worth investigating was mitigated by the
lack of common knowledge expected for advancing my knowledge further.

You can look at that like a multiple dependancies problem - except that you
don't know about these dependancies beforehand.

With a traditional class, you acquire the same vocabulary, the same comparison
basis and so on - and that's priceless. I have started taking classes, and I
now realize that. I learn about topics I would have never learnt on my own and
I realize 'yes, they could be quite useful'.

Please realize I'm not even taking about the network or other benefits you may
find in an MBA - just the actual knowledge.

I haven't done an MBA (yet?), but I guess most of the commenters here haven't
either - and haven't even tried and given up (which would then be interesting
to know).

So I wonder how they can judge about its pertinence. Before this experience, I
was also imbued in delusions of "online learning that made everything
possible". But there's a dependency ceiling - I've touched it. Personally, if
I can enroll in one, I know I will.

------
kstenerud
Coming up next: "Hey Entrepreneur - Please Get an MBA"

~~~
gozman
ha! exactly!

[http://gozman.wordpress.com/2012/10/11/hey-entrepreneur-
plea...](http://gozman.wordpress.com/2012/10/11/hey-entrepreneur-please-get-
an-mba/)

------
sritch
I think your entire point is that you don't want an MBA and you are an
entrepreneur - these two aren't related. An entrepreneur can definitely
benefit from getting an MBA. Your 5% of MBA's start a business can probably be
said about the same percent of the population, not many people really start
their own business. Someone who plans to start their own business won't be any
less likely to do so just because they got an MBA.

------
fapi1974
I'd argue that outside the snarky echo chamber of the Valley, and MBA is still
considered a valuable signal. So your advice only holds true if you are dead
sure you will always be an entrepreneur and never need a fallback position.

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lbarrow
I had trouble getting past his claim that an MBA costs $100,000 per year. A
quick search reveals that for HBS, tuition is $53,000 per year. Maybe he means
the total cost of the degree is $100,000?

~~~
volandovengo
Yes, total cost. Appologies, I'll fix that (typo)

[http://poetsandquants.com/2011/01/08/how-much-does-a-top-
mba...](http://poetsandquants.com/2011/01/08/how-much-does-a-top-mba-degree-
cost/)

------
eskimoroll
The author lost me at "much of the actual content of the program focus on
corporate skills and how to network to get a job." He has obviously never been
near a real MBA program. After having gone through core curriculum classes in
Accounting, Marketing, Finance, Entrepreneurship (yes it's part of the core!),
Leadership, Ethics, Operations, etc., this year I'm taking classes such as
Entrepreneurial Finance, Financial Management of Small Firms, Founders
Dilemmas, Launching Technology Ventures, Strategic Marketing in Creative
Industries, Competing with Social Networks, etc. along with getting school
credit for working on my startup.

I chose to go back for an MBA after 8+ years of a wonderful career because I
knew there were significant holes in my knowledge that I wanted to address
while simultaneously using it as a platform from which I could start a
company. Yes, the alumni connections are wonderful and the school name does
carry some weight in certain circles, but more than anything I love learning
from faculty who are some of the great entrepreneurial thought leaders of our
time and passionate students who genuinely want to create businesses with
lasting value.

Of course it's crazy expensive and it's not a choice you make lightly but for
me personally, it was the best possible way to become an entrepreneur. (The
school actually gave us some funding/grants, allowed us to incubate on site,
etc. Super supportive.)

Oh and I am considering applying to Y-Combinator/TechStars when I graduate
because while I'll have a solid business foundation, there is still tons I
need to learn about entrepreneurship.

------
austinlyons
I went to a Stanford MBA talk here in Austin TX this summer. They noted that
upwards of 40-50% of their MBA alumni pursue an entrepreneurial endeavor at
some point in their career.

~~~
vtail
Stanford is an outlier as they are very entrepreneur focused. I believe the
number is much smaller for other top schools.

~~~
ahc
I don't think Stanford is an outlier. I went to HBS and they also say that 50%
of grads eventually do something entrepreneurial. However, the term
entrepreneur is probably different from what most people on HN think--it
includes starting a consultancy, hedge fund, small business, etc.

------
bduerst
For points #1, #4, and #5, it's a statistical fallacy.

#1 - MBA programs's are not focused on entrepreneurship but it doesn't negate
that they have entrepreneurship courses. There is also a huge benefit to
entrepreneurs in understanding business while creating new business, and in
knowing exactly where and how your business idea fits in a "corporate
structure". Not every startup is a consumer targeted mobile application.

#4 - Just because the network isn't 100% entrepreneurs does not mean you can't
gain value from it. Similarly, unlike an incubator you are investing 1-2 years
into an MBA, and build stronger relationships and ties within that network.

#5 - 5% entrepreneur rate of a large alumni network is still most likely
larger than an entire incubator's alumni network.

For points #2 and #3, it's a personal choice on whether or not to make the
investment. People differ by their risk averseness and in the amount of
resources they have to invest, and unlike your bootstrapped startup an MBA
sticks with you for life.

TL;DR: The MBA is your own investment to make, not Naysawn Naderi's.

------
n_coats
I strongly contemplated pursuing an MBA as well and was largely put off due to
most of the reasons you debate. I'm not sure the start-up experience can be
described numerically or other ways MBA's are; I think the journey of a start-
up warrants the highest commitment, focus, and openness/ability to learn, but
is ultimately more valuable than any traditional course.

~~~
volandovengo
Good point re: the commitment. I think it also requires an acceptance that
failure will likely come along way and that one must keep trying to succeed.

Dave McClure has a great presentation about not doing a startup because you
will fail: <http://www.geekwire.com/2012/dave-mcclure-startup-advice/>

I wonder if any amount of proper education can change the fact that we'll all
probably have to fail a couple of times before creating something which really
takes off.

~~~
n_coats
Absolutely regarding acceptance of failure.. Could perhaps be the most
important experience associated with a start-up. As devasting as realizing
failure is, it's subtly warming when you recognize and apply what you've
learned from your failures towards a new venture.

------
toddbeckett
My MBA was paid for by the company I was working for. Does your calculus
remain the same if someone is willing to foot the bill?

~~~
codegeek
may be. Personally, I will not do an MBA even if paid for by someone. I would
rather be spending my time building something. Just one perspective.

~~~
iends
Are doing an MBA and building something mutually exclusive?

~~~
codegeek
probably not for everyone.

------
armored_mammal
I've never wanted an MBA, but I do feel like there's also not any really good
provider of the kind of useful practical information that you feel like you
need to know in order to start a business, whether it has to do with business
licenses or business plans or insurance or anything else related to starting a
company.

~~~
volandovengo
I feel the same way. Currently the best solution may be online materials such
as the personal MBA blog (which lists out a whole slew of books to read) and
Coursera/Udacity courses.

The Steve Blank one is pretty awesome:
<http://www.udacity.com/overview/Course/ep245/CourseRev/1>

------
gozman
I'm an MBA and startup founder. I wrote a response to this on my blog:

[http://gozman.wordpress.com/2012/10/11/hey-entrepreneur-
plea...](http://gozman.wordpress.com/2012/10/11/hey-entrepreneur-please-get-
an-mba/)

------
philco
Hmmm...this post would hold more validity if it were written by someone who
got an MBA. How can you comment on the value of the education and its
pertinence to a startup, if you haven't gone through it and learned?

~~~
volandovengo
hmmm - it would be have to imagine anyone who spent over 100K on a degree
would trash the institution that they got the degree from. They would burn
quite a few bridges in doing so.

------
ralphacosta
There are things you learn while pursuing a MBA that you will not learn
anywhere else. Some of those things are highly relevant to being an
entrepreneur. Maybe not at the very earliest building stages, but certainly if
you make it past that point. Particularly in enterprise focused software
companies. That said, there are many paths to achieving your goals - the key
is to choose one and stay focused - be it a MBA or YC or any other program. We
should all be grateful that any of these options are available to any of us -
none of them seem bad to me.

------
timjahn
I don't think a degree defines your success or failure in life (or business or
school or anything).

I think you do. The type of person you are and how you affect yourself and
others is what will lead you down the path to failure or success in your
business, or any endeavor you embark on.

If it's a dream of yours to get an MBA, go get one. If you have no interest of
ever going back to school, don't.

Either way, you can still achieve amazing things.

------
_8ks0
If you're interested in a do-it-yourself approach, I pulled all the books I
could find from the HBS course catalog: [redacted]

~~~
gawker
I'd say that most of the value from an MBA program is through your peers
rather than from books. To complement the reading, I would recommend reaching
out to other entrepreneurs.

------
tutu
To create a valuable product, though, you need to be around other people that
are passionate about creating a solution to a problem. Maybe an MBA might not
be good for this, but other graduate degrees might.

------
tutu
I would also argue that most MBA programs teach you how to create a company in
the current flip environment - nothing that has longevity.

~~~
Ogalanre
Well, it still adds to the qualifications well paying organizations demand for
when recruiting new minds.

------
cantbecool
I know I can't be the only one who thought the title was initially referring
to a Macbook Air. Apple's marketing has polluted my mind.

