
PHP – a look back, a look forward - craigkerstiens
https://blog.heroku.com/archives/2014/4/29/php_a_look_back_a_look_forward
======
camus2
Heroku already supported PHP via buildpacks,i've been using heroku and php for
years,it works very well(a bit expensive though),but I ended up reproducing
git deployement on my own servers.

~~~
thinkbohemian
Heroku employee here. Yes there's been a PHP community buildpack for some
time. I'm glad you got it working. Moving PHP to be officially sanctioned and
"supported" by Heroku is subtle but significant:

We've hired a full time PHP owner. We've got PHP docs on the devcenter
[https://devcenter.heroku.com/articles/php-
support](https://devcenter.heroku.com/articles/php-support) and more
importantly the features we document are "supported". If you've got problems
with them we will provide application specific support (to the extent of
supporting our docs and the platform). It also means that the experience will
continue to get better as new features are added, and that PHP has a voice in
the future of our platform.

PHP on Heroku has been a highly requested feature, and we're investing a good
amount to make the experience a good one.

~~~
eridal
many many thanks for making this reality!

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jonheller
It's probably my own lack of understanding, but I never really understood the
benefit of PHP on Heroku -- it's so easy to setup a LEMP stack on somewhere
like Linode, where I have full control and can still scale just as easy.

------
mantrax5
From the article: "In fact, for many modern PHP applications the notion of the
LAMP stack seems limiting. Fortunately, PHP developers on Heroku can
fearlessly take advantage of just about any technology they can imagine."

I'd argue that for many modern PHP applications it's PHP that's limiting.
Modern PHP libraries and best practices are mindlessly copied from Java cargo-
cult-style, without any of the benefits of Java, and without any understanding
why Java does things in a certain way.

If PHP programmers were truly "fearless" about taking advantage of just about
any technology, they really wouldn't be using PHP most of the time.

I'm a (semi-former) PHP programmer. I've really squeezed everything out of
this shitty little language I could before opening my eyes and seeing other
solutions. I see this as my mistake. And especially now, seeing "Modern PHP"
turn into "a crappy Java clone", I had the choice of using a crappy Java clone
or just using actual Java. So I eventually chose the latter (plus others,
Erlang, C++, now Rust etc.).

PHP's only remaining benefit is the cheap shared hosts. It's a huge benefit
for most sites, but that's it. The language itself is crap. So is everything
around it.

~~~
icehawk219
"I've really squeezed everything out of this shitty little language"

Whenever PHP is mentioned people always jump to talking about the limits of
the language and I'm curious what those limits were? I've worked on big and
small code bases, large scale and small, and everything in between and haven't
hit anything I'd call a "limit of the language" that we didn't just go right
past without missing a beat. I do agree there are much better options out
there now but based on a very different criteria which is why I'm doing what I
can to learn many of them and move on from PHP.

~~~
mantrax5
The reasons I can list are thousands. But to understand them it's really a
matter of mindset. I can talk about long-running processes, threads, weak
references, actor systems and so on, but most PHP developers would just phase
out completely if I do this without sufficient background. At most they'll say
something like "shared nothing!", like a tick, almost.

Because to PHP developers absolutely any problem fits into "state in MySQL and
logic in PHP". Even with Memcache, or now with NoSQL stores like Redis, the
mindset remains the same, just the API is different.

Someone once said "You can't connect the dots looking forward you can only
connect them looking backwards."

To realize why PHP is shitty, you have to first get familiar with the larger
landscape. Because if you don't, you'll believe every problem is fit for the
golden hammer of MySQL+PHP until the end of your days, even if there are
vastly superior solutions out there.

~~~
bowlofpetunias
So, you're talking about design choices for which PHP (amongst many other
languages) is the wrong tool, and your complaint is that... PHP is the wrong
tool.

Therefor, PHP is shitty.

Yes, I'm not surprised people phase out when you start talking.

~~~
mantrax5
You see, turns out the design choices for which PHP is the wrong tool start to
very seriously overlap the design choices that are best for most projects
written in PHP these days.

But you can only know this if you are even aware of these design choices, and
their benefits. PHP's architecture isn't the best paradigm for web development
& "web scale" despite years of brainwashing in the PHP community. It's not the
best by far.

So we have countless PHP apps shoved into the PHP paradigm for no better
reason except that this is what PHP offers.

I've seen this happen a few times before with various technologies and I
recognize the signs. Despite PHP supporters talk about PHP's bright future,
the fact it's seriously starting to resemble a bad Java clone is only further
moving us to the point people will start abandoning PHP in droves.

An example from the recent past which PHP devs might be familiar with is
Flash. Flash's future was extremely bright mere year before it imploded very
suddenly and "unexpectedly" to the uninitiated. The signs were there for years
prior to that.

