

Ask HN:  I have yet to do the one thing I wish before I die - blacktastic

The thing I want to do is to go back to college full time and major in mathematics.  I would like to get a master's/advanced degree in math ("maths" if you are non-US :) ) and while doing so, ponder and study the queen of sciences.<p>I've made it to 41 years old. I am a software engineer, and I'm so-so at it. I self-studied my way to a C++ programming job after working my way from network admin to web developer to programmer to software engineer since 1999. I'm not even all that great at math.  But I failed my first programming course back in 1985, but I am now a well-paid professional. I know if I do a math program full time and work really hard, I can at least get to "good".<p>My one true joy is solving problems and I even enjoy figuring out proofs.  I have taken enough math courses to know I thoroughly enjoy the subject.  But there are no evening programs anywhere near my home to study math.  There are no part-time programs.  I would have to quit my job and find a way to finance myself through a proper math program.<p>I am willing to give up my current lifestyle and live in poverty to pursue this goal.<p>My question is, why shouldn't I do it?  What lies at the other end of the goal?   Am I crazy?  Have any of you done such a thing?  It feels like I am throwing my life to the wind.  But if I don’t do it, I will regret it the rest of my life.  Advice appreciated.
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SwellJoe
Unless you have other responsibilities that you haven't mentioned, like, say,
a wife and children, there's no reason you shouldn't do exactly what you want
to do with your life.

Money, beyond subsistence, isn't really correlated with increased happiness,
as numerous studies have shown. Just make sure you always have a reasonable
level of health insurance coverage. Otherwise, I can't think of any good
reason not to do what you want.

At the very least, if you find you really _don't_ enjoy it and that it isn't
worth giving up two or three or four more years of your life to schooling,
you'll put that nagging question of "should I..." to rest, and it'll only cost
you a few grand and one semester. I find that having those kinds of questions
nagging at my mind is far more detrimental to my emotional well-being than the
actual outcomes.

~~~
iigs
I agree. One other thing to consider is retirement, though.

~~~
SwellJoe
Agreed on that one, as well. At 41, I would hope he already has a pretty good
bit of retirement savings in place. I'm in my early 30s and I, unfortunately,
still haven't properly accounted for my retirement (though these days I'm
feeling pretty comfortable with that fact, as my company is actually making
real money for the first time). Anyway, I don't look forward to _not_ working
and I have no plans to ever "retire", but one should definitely be prepared
for faculties to decline and value in the market to decline, because, barring
miraculous improvements in health care and aging prevention, it happens to all
of us eventually, no matter how well we take care of ourselves.

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gyom
short version : If you do it full-time, don't sign up for an undergrad program
to get a diploma. Get good advice (from the department) for the courses that
you want to take and go for those. Don't be a fool signing up for Measure
Theory before you're comfortable with calculus, though.

long version :

The best reason I can think of NOT to do it is that you'll be doing a few
interesting courses compared to the interesting ones.

I did a bachelor's degree in math and a master's degree right after (Number
Theory, yay !). In all the undergrad years, the most interesting courses were
the introductory courses to "Real Analysis" and "Group/Ring Theory". "Complex
Analysis" was pretty awesome too, but not as eye-opening as the two previous
ones.

The program had a lot of padding. I had to take introductory courses to
computer science. The data structure class was also an eye-opening experience,
but the 5 other mandatory CS courses were boring.

After doing all the math stuff, I want to study artificial intelligence so I
went to some other place as a non-classified student. I studied full-time
there, took 5 courses each term, but got no diploma for that year. What
happened after that is not relevant to the story. The point is, I took a lot
of very interesting courses because I wasn't limited by what some committee
decided should be the school curriculum for an undergrad degree in math. If
you don't need the diploma, you don't have to follow the department rules. You
can always register for specific courses and take those. I had a 55 year old
marine officer registered in my Real Analysis class. He was a pretty fun guy,
but he had some problems following the material. He was doing a better job
than most undergrads, though.

An about online lessons, people underestimate the value that you're getting by
being able to dialog with the professor during class. It's not just about
being motivated by being forced to do the exercises, it's about being able to
ask your algebra prof "why on Earth would I want to diagonalize a matrix !?"
and getting a good answer to that.

There are certain key insights to be had while learning math and it's very
helpful to be able to check with a prof who knows the material well. Some of
the theory in mathematics in presented backwards. If you have hindsight, you
know what they're trying to achieve and you can see why it makes sense to
start where the book starts. If don't know the destination, it's harder to
follow the proof when they don't seem to be going in any direction.

~~~
blacktastic
Thank you for your story and advice.

I agree about online. I tried it but I know it will be better if I have direct
contact with a teacher in a classroom.

~~~
nopassrecover
Depends on the uni/college and the tutors/teachers. Often the class sizes are
too big for teachers to spend any significant time on learning issues (as
compared to specific question issues).

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aneesh
Test the waters with MIT OCW (<http://ocw.mit.edu>) and Academic Earth
(<http://academicearth.org>) for lots of lectures & problem sets, and then
make the jump if you feel that'll make you happy.

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johnnybgoode
So you want:

1) to study math 2) a degree in math

I understand #1. Why #2?

~~~
dpcan
Maybe the degree is like the "trophy", but I have to agree with johnnybgoode
here, if it's truly about the subject, learn it, involve yourself in it, and
succeed on your own terms.

That being said, I can understand how at University you will have other great
minds to throw ideas around with, and that can be truly invaluable.

~~~
johnnybgoode
> That being said, I can understand how at University you will have other
> great minds to throw ideas around with, and that can be truly invaluable.

I agree. I want to add, though, that even this can often be done without
bothering with the official program and degree requirements.

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nanijoe
You really ought to closely examine your own motives for wanting a math
degree. Having said that we usually end up regretting the things we did not do
more than the things we actually did.. go for it, and if you don't like it,
you can always find another job.

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arghnoname
One thing to keep in mind if you want to get a degree in math is you might
want to get through the more introductory level courses at a community
college. I've done this, and in my case anyway, there hasn't been a noticeable
difference, and introductory mathematics being fairly old and standard, these
things transfer (but make sure you verify this!)

You could save a bundle of money this way and then go to the 4 year school
with only 2 years left.

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Ixiaus
I say go for it, don't let perceived comfort hold you back! Once summer is
over, I will be Urban Camping full time and working out of a library building
my startup.

Two days out of the week I am dedicating to my self-education (for which I
have pursued over the last four years with much fun).

It's an investment, a big one. I _only_ work 40-50 hours a week to maintain a
1k p/month apartment; when I could be putting those 40-50 hours a week to the
startup ideas I have, programming projects (building an Erlang backed triple
store), self-education (math, rhetoric, logic, etc...), and DIY projects.

In the end, doing those things that I love and enjoy will bring monetary
compensation greater than the job I work at. Since I will be Urban Camping it,
my lifestyle couldn't really get 'worse'. Only better.

Do it! Do it! It's like jumping off that 30 foot cliff at the lake - scary to
make yourself do it, but, push yourself off the edge and it's one hell of a
fun ride.

Please keep us updated, I love the fact that I am meeting like minded people
here!

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iterationx
I wish I had got a degree in Math, College will give you structure and force
discipline. You can get fit on your own at the gym, but if you go to boot camp
its much easier. 1 vote for college!

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geezer
I know exactly how you feel.

I am 29, married, no kids. I finished my undergrad in CS when I was 22. I
worked as a systems software developer until last year when I quit my job and
went for Masters in Statistics. I have 2 more courses left to take to get the
degree.

I am no fan of academia, but I came back to school because I think it was the
only way to completely immerse myself into what I wanted to learn. It
obviously cost me over 1 year of pay I would have had otherwise plus the
tuition fee. But it is totally damn worth it. Plus it gave me more time to
work on my side project.

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frossie
There is enormous satisfaction in doing something you enjoy. I agree that if
you have no commitments to others (like kids) there is nothing wrong with
pursuing your ambitions by ditching your lifestyle.

However I should add that there are some really first-rate distance learning
programmes (in particular by Canadian and Australian universities, where the
population density is low and there is a high demand for such things, but also
Open University in the UK and I am sure US equivalents I am not aware of).
These are not "degrees by mail", they are genuine courses by quality
universities, with classes and lecturers and credits and so on.

Unless you are specifically attracted by the idea of being on a campus (and
bear in mind, at your age it's not going to be the same as for the
youngsters), you might want to see if any of them meet your needs and try
multi-tasking for a while. If your employer values you, they might even agree
to cut back your hours to give you more study time.

~~~
blacktastic
I have tried this (I am in the US) and the programs I have found with
accredited math programs are for teaching math.

I took a look at Open University and they still don't have a full program for
US-based students.

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jlees
Well, I gave up my lifestyle and lived in poverty* to do a degree in maths and
hated it - switched to computer science after the first year. Theoretical
computer science turns me on way more than pure maths. But it firmly sounds as
if you want to do it and you're willing to do it, and at 41, you've had enough
life lessons to realise when something's a true goal. Go for it.

* admittedly, it wasn't a big hassle, since I was 18 and had a choice between continuing a half-decent job and going to uni. Uni, as the accepted path for people my age, wasn't exactly a hard choice. ;)

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herdrick
If you're not married, why not? What better way to expend yourself, to spend
your life?

Do you have another bachelor's degree? If so, you might be able to get credit
towards the masters (though perhaps credits are moot if the degree is
carefully structured) when taking the undergrad math classes.

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ksvs
Seems like it might be worth separating the goals "learn math" and "get
degree." Presumably it's the former you want. And if so, might there not be
people good enough nearby that you could hire as private tutors? If there's a
university nearby there should be: grad students.

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travisjeffery
Plan and simple do it man, pursue your goal and don't ask anyone else if
you're doing it right and enjoy the journey.

I'm a Math and Computer Science major and I love it.

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pj
hmm... you shouldn't because you have expectations? Do you? You say, "The
thing i want to do"... why do you want to do it? What do you _expect_ to get
out of it. what is it that you really want? More knowledge? more earning
potential? to be around people interested in learning? Analyze what it
_really_ is that you want. To have fun?

~~~
blacktastic
Fun. And because my life is at least half over and I haven't tried it.

~~~
pj
Then go for it. Life is about new experiences and loving every minute.

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Tichy
If possible, try to think about areas of maths that interest you most and find
a university that does that kind of research.

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ojbyrne
Find a job somewhere where there are part-time programs?

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nickfox
Quit fidgeting and just do it.

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blacktastic
Why a degree?

Because of all topics/areas of study, I've found math to be the most difficult
to self-study. I've made some progress on my own, but having a
professor/teacher and marked stepping stones in a program is best for me. I'm
definitely an autodidact, but I know my limitations.

What is my motivation?

The times my mind is fully engaged and I've been able to make mental leaps are
when I'm working on interesting problems.

I have taken a few distance learning math courses at an accredited university
and I found myself very engaged and learned a lot. But I found the format
lacking: for difficult subjects I am going to need a real connection to
encourage me past difficult spots.

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blacktastic
I want to thank you all for the encouragement. I did not expect it. I thought
people would say I'm too old and it is too late.

