
Duolingo becomes first VC-funded $1B Pittsburgh tech startup - lelf
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/03/google-funded-duolingo-first-1-billion-start-up-from-pittsburgh.html
======
orliesaurus
They have users... but the tool(app), other than being really cute and well
made, is super basic... You can't expect to be fluent enough in a language
JUST with Duolingo, at most you will be able to read a few sentences and spit
out a few basic sentences and words.

Is that enough? Definitely not. Not for me at least. They basically give you
the 'hello world' of a language.

I speak 5 languages (learned through school and life choices) but when I tried
to learn a 6th on Duolingo I felt like the experience was not good enough for
me. A tutor or a class would probably be mandatory and using Duolingo just for
re-affirming some basic concepts would be a nice to have, like a companion
app..but they have to be able to let teachers create their own lessons.

~~~
tomlu
Is there a better option to reach beginner-intermediate level? I am going to
have to learn French from scratch in about a month and I'm finding the
prospect daunting.

~~~
umanwizard
Well it depends how much time you have to put into it...

Buy (or pirate, but really, you should buy them if you can afford it, they’re
great) the entire set of Pimsleur French tapes. There are 90, each 30 mins
long. Do one tape every day. Note that this will take you longer than 90 days
as you are supposed to repeat tapes when you don’t remember ~80% of the
content.

Concurrently, get Anki (flashcard program) and find a French vocabulary deck
ordered by frequency. Learn as many new words per day as you have time for. Do
all your required reviews every day.

Concurrently, spend as much time as you can every day reading or listening to
appropriate material and trying to understand it. Search for “French graded
reader” for some good books to buy.

~~~
AareyBaba
This is what I did for Pimsleur Spanish. I recommend Pimsleur.

~~~
Ididntdothis
Same here. I only wish there were more Spanish levels. I have gone through all
of them but now I am stuck at a still very basic level.

------
cozos
I have been using Duolingo for about 7 months now and have made much more
progress in it than any of the language classes I took in high school and
college. I think the reason is because course based language lessons focus
mostly on teaching grammar to be tested on exams. On the other hand, Duolingo
focuses on repetition and practice which helps you retain what you learned and
build an intuition for the language.

~~~
busterarm
I used Duolingo to start learning Danish and within about 6 months had 5*'d
almost down to the end of the tree. I always felt like something was missing
and enrolled in actual Danish classes from the university here, taught by a
native speaker.

Within 4 weeks of class I'd stopped using Duolingo, but I'm still studying and
continuing with classes (lessons with a native speaker). I felt that in many
places it was inaccurate, prepared me poorly for written conversations with
Danes (and don't even get me started on speaking/proununciation), and didn't
provide any of the cultural nuance really needed to understand the language
and how Danish people construct their sentences.

I guess it's good for vocabulary, but not as good as simple flash cards.

~~~
antpls
How are you sure that the human teacher is more "right" than Duolingo ?
Teachers will show you their ways of speaking Danish, which is usually very
formal and a bit outdated, not necessarily how Danish people actually speak
Danish (although their are still a valuable experience in your training).

I believe the idea of Duolingo is to "bootstrap" yourself enough into the
language that you can read more material about it, and then start speaking
with other people to improve yourself with real conversation in real
situation. The teacher may be a good addition, but also costs more and may be
confusing.

~~~
busterarm
I have several Danish friends that I speak to.

I get that Duolingo is "basics", but it captures a lot of your time that are
better spent learning with other means. Off of this, the company has a $1B
valuation. They don't charge for their service and it's not really worth
paying a lot for. The users who use it the most probably won't pay.

I don't know how they're ever going to justify that valuation.

~~~
antpls
Maybe you are the exact user story of their business model : at the end of the
Duolingo experience, the website would become the Uber of language teachers.

Online realtime, or face-to-face course in your town with a selection of human
teachers. A Platform to match teachers and students.

The platform could simply list professionals (with a fee), or take a fee per
minute of course video, or a fee per booking, etc

------
mooman219
I would hope they spend more money in actually teaching other languages then.
The current quality of their app is just gamified vocabulary flash cards at
best.

~~~
gbear605
The problem is that many people see Duolingo (and Duolingo partially
advertises itself this way) as the first and last step needed for learning a
language. On the contrary, Duolingo is a good first step, but it's only a
first step. Instead, simultaneous with Duolingo, you should be using a spaced
repetition system to study vocabulary, like Mnemosyne, Anki, or Memrise. After
you get significantly through the Duolingo tree (or finish it, for a smaller
tree), you need to start immersing yourself in the foreign language -
consuming media in the language and talking with others who speak your target
language, at the very least. Another good tool after Duolingo is Clozemaster,
since it helps you get exposed to lots of vocabulary and sentence structures.

It depends on your language, but widely spoken languages have "easy language"
media available, which is a good place to start. But also, look on YouTube for
native speakers talking, listen to podcasts, read books (keep Wiktionary or
WordReference at hand), and find people online! It'll be hard at first, but
you'll quickly get a lot better.

In addition, Duolingo (and every other language learning tool) is
significantly better for some languages than others. There is now the "story"
feature for some languages, which helps a lot with reading comprehension,
especially after you get past the first few easy tiers of stories.

I'd say that completing the Duolingo tree in German got me through a similar
level of grammar that my four years in high school did, but what it is lacking
is the many hours of listening practice and vocabulary practice.

Disclaimer: I have no connection to Duolingo or any of the other tools I
mentioned; I am simply a fan.

~~~
ape4
Isn't Duolingo just spaced repetition.

~~~
xxxtentachyon
It's definitely not "just" spaced repetition in the way that Anki is (asking
you how difficult it was to recall the answer and choosing to ask you again at
some time "t + now" in the future, where "t" is determined by your answer). As
far as I can tell, as you're working through a tree in Duolingo, it tries to
sprinkle in words that you've seen a few checkpoints ago, but it doesn't seem
to do so dynamically based on demonstrated mastery or lack thereof of the
words sprinkled back in.

------
org3432
I used Duolingo for about 1 month to learn Portuguese and was close to the end
of the tree. I learned quite a lot, the grammar drills were useful
introduction and basic vocabulary, however I stopped using it due to it
requiring me to translate back into English which made it hard to think in the
language. I bought other books, like side by side texts, and grammar books to
continue and watch YouTube videos from Brazil to drill in the sound of the
language.

I learned German at a University in a German speaking country, and the classes
were completely in German from day one which I found helpful. I also bought
quite a number of books and studied quite a lot before I become fluent.

So I don’t think an app is a one stop solution, it takes a lot of material,
I’m not sure why people think any one system is enough, especially considering
you never stop learning a language. Fluent just means you know enough to
continue to learn in the language on your own.

------
AWildC182
Surprised Duolingo is the first out of Pittsburgh. There's a huge tech scene
out there with tons of interesting stuff happening but with a reasonable cost
of living. They have the top ranked CS program plus a bunch of interesting
robotics stuff going on.

~~~
OnlineGladiator
As someone who went to CMU, there are just so few investors in Pittsburgh. In
fact, many years ago I was talking with Severin Hacker (Duolingo cofounder)
about some of the challenges of running a company there. There is a lot of
engineering talent...and that's it. Marketing? Business development? There
just aren't (or weren't) that many people there. I also know that Anki moved
to San Francisco because it was the only way they could raise money. I also
left Pittsburgh because it was the only way I could raise money.

So long as the investors are in the Bay Area, it will continue to be the
startup mecca of the world. That does seem to be slowly changing, but not
nearly as fast as anyone promoting their city as the next startup hub is
willing to admit.

~~~
Cyph0n
I’m currently based in NC. Pittsburgh caught my eye as a potential place to
move to, but it’s just too far away from... everything. I also understand it’s
a very “sporty” city, which is something I’m not very into.

~~~
cfallin
> I also understand it’s a very “sporty” city, which is something I’m not very
> into.

I wouldn't necessarily discount the city for this; in my time there, I
realized there were really two Pittsburghs. You'll see the steel-town
football-obsessed side any time you walk past a bar, but near the CMU/Pitt
bubble it actually had a really intellectual vibe that I miss now that I've
left. Not just the abundance of grad students, doctors and the like, but good
libraries and bookstores, a fantastic symphony orchestra, a quality coffee
scene, etc. Has a Portland/Seattle-like (including gray weather) vibe. And
Steelers games are great times to go grocery shopping!

The travel situation isn't great though. PIT has direct flights to most east
coast cities but getting to the west coast indeed sucks. (United does have a
direct SFO flight, IIRC, if a bit pricy.)

------
kachurovskiy
I went till the end of the tree on Duolingo 5 years ago on just the free tier.
Installed it a few months ago for my daughter and now the free tier is
useless, can't do much at all.

Memrise is more useful on free tier but quite buggy.

I was looking into building a language learning app the other day to help my
spouse with their passion but the market appears over-saturated. The only
niche I see is for a good game teaching English alike
[https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.prodigygam...](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.prodigygame.prodigy)
but that's not something I can arrange.

[https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pC4k3i-U8-uSAsd2qrg_EX-k...](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pC4k3i-U8-uSAsd2qrg_EX-k52XsxMpIfhqx76HWQ3s/edit)

------
telesilla
For all its faults, we can't argue with the fact that thanks to the popularity
of this app many people have engaged with another language, even if it fails
to deliver. Overall, on a global level, this increases compassion and global
understanding through cultural exposure. I can't possibly be against it for
that.

------
wyxuan
Great app. 151+ day streak on it. I think there are some problems with
monetization (right now the free tier has just as many features as the paid
tier), but it is really a great tool.

~~~
unglaublich
That's probably because you are in another A/B test group. In mine, I can make
up to 5 mistakes a day, before I am cut off for the rest of the day (except
when I pay, of course).

------
acspock
Duolingo isn't as simple as some of these comments make it out to be. I can
only speak for Spanish as I'm 75% done through the new tree (one more group to
go). They have actual written, albeit small bite sized written lessons for
every lesson branch. If you compiled all the written lessons (the bulb icon
next to each lesson) you would have an introductory Spanish text book.

I also take lessons on italki and my gf is a native spanish speaker. It's a
great supplement tool if you're consistent.

------
m0zg
I'm fluent in 2 languages, and can read French as well, but when I tried to
learn Japanese through Duolingo, it was an epic fail. Beyond some very basic
things, it was pretty clear that not only the developers don't use the service
themselves, they also don't really listen to people who do use it in any kind
of a consistent fashion.

------
cryptozeus
Imo all these complaints against duolingo not being good enough are not fair.
Have you seen the alternatives ? I mean they did get 1 billion dollars for not
nothing !

~~~
charlesism
They have the most money because they got the most users. They got the most
users because their courses demand the least effort.

I have used several of the alternatives, and all of them are more effective at
_teaching languages_. Granted, Duolingo is better at _raising money_.

~~~
cryptozeus
And why is that bad ? If users can learn with least effort then isn’t that
better:)

~~~
charlesism
It’s bad because it takes a very long time for a language learner to assess
their own progress. Duolingo relies on its userbase making an uninformed
choice. If Duolingo warned a user “it will take a you 30 years of daily
‘Casual Level’ use to learn the basics here” he or she would likely choose a
different website or strategy.

~~~
cryptozeus
Product market fit does not lie. There is a reason they have user base and
activate users who keeps coming back.

~~~
charlesism
Yes, the reason is that it takes around two years before a user realizes how
ineffective the site is. That’s about the maximum amount of time a user can
fool themselves into thinking “I’ll start to see some progress any day now!”

If Duolingo were as effective as sites that require the user to make actual
effort, its popularity would be more than justified.

------
edgarvaldes
Reading so many criticisms about the quality and depth of knowledge acquired
through Duolingo (deserved, by the way)... is there an alternative app?

~~~
morphogenesis
Babbel offers much higher quality language courses (but has no free tier)

~~~
ralfd
I hate that Duolingo has no grammar lessons or dictionary for vocabulary. Is
that different for Babbel? How is that structured?

Duolingo also has a weird discrimination between iOS vs Web/Android. In the
iPhone App you lose health with wrong answers and wait for regeneration or
have to buy "hearts", this restriction is not present on Web.

~~~
morphogenesis
Babbel does grammar, yes, as well as explanations of exceptions and idioms,
and the sentences and dialogues are culturally relevant to the language

------
qxnqd
The thread is full of "Duolingo sucks, just use XXX instead", for a wide array
of XXX alternatives. Now to pick a good XXX...

------
sfblah
This company apparently has a $100mm revenue run rate. How? I read somewhere
that companies pay for translations from learners. Does that make sense? These
are people with very low fluency. Does anyone with more info know more about
their revenue model?

~~~
mlinsey
There is also a monthly subscription plan. Dunno what their conversion rate
is, but recently (maybe sometime this year?) they added a game-style resource
mechanic where any mistake makes you lose a heart, which you gain back either
by waiting a few hours or by being a premium user.

~~~
sfblah
Thanks for the info.

------
skelet
Duolingo is super frustrating if you're learning Spain-Spanish, there are lots
of complaints of them not adding Spanish variants of words and Duolingo hasn't
moved on it at all in 5+ years.

The premium version is not worth it at all.

------
Grue3
I stopped using Duolingo when they added my native language and there was no
way to change the "base language" back to English. Thankfully Anki will never
do me dirty like this.

------
nathancahill
Also, notably, Luis von Ahn is the first Guatemalan unicorn founder.

------
k__
After some people here said DL isn't good to learn a language, what are really
useful alternatives?

~~~
munmaek
If you truly want to learn a language, no singular app will work.

You need to find a good curriculum for your language for grammar. Typically
this means taking a class or buying a good textbook. Sometimes you get lucky
and find a comprehensive website.

For audio / speaking practice, I recommend glossika. It’s like a modern
version of pimsleur.

For vocabulary I recommend Anki. I have used that for the last two years and
written about it. Generally you can start with a premade deck and eventually
make your own once you’re a little bit more advanced in the language.

For talking to people, try HelloTalk. You can make posts and natives can
correct them, and you can have conversations with native speakers.

Once you are intermediate or advanced+, you need to start consuming native
material. Try searching on YouTube, or look for graded readers.

Searching reddit about recommended textbooks / etc is usually useful,
depending on how popular your language is.

------
emrhzc
first VC-funded $1 billion Pittsburgh tech start-up? wow that's unique.

------
dmode
Just for comparison there are 95 unicorns in the Bay Area. The gap is just
mind boggling

~~~
ascorbic
The Bay Area is an outlier on pretty much every scale. It's not a valuable
comparison.

------
bsder
> Language-learning app Duolingo is valued at $1.5 billion after a $30 million
> investment by Alphabet's CapitalG.

Erm, so Alphabet threw in $30 million for 3% in a _Series F_ that has already
taken $138 million (I wonder what kind of preferences they got on that, LOL)
and magically Duolingo is a unicorn.

Uh, yeah, sure.

Basically, Alphabet paid $30 million for a lot of user information to throw
into the voracious Google maw.

~~~
shadowgovt
I'm not sure how you get there from the investment. The $30mil doesn't get
Google access to Duolingo's data.

~~~
bsder
Google paid $30 million for 3%. Even the most optimistic unicorn projection
isn't going to return much of a multiplier on that. Pearson is a _behemoth_ in
the space, and it's, what, about a $5 billion company?

The financials simply don't add up.

So there is some very important aspect of the deal that can't be publicly
announced. The only thing Google would want from Duolingo that would have to
be kept on the down low would be lots of user data.

~~~
shadowgovt
Or they think the project has legitimate worth and this team is the right one
to execute (people having more language knowledge makes it easier to make the
world's information universally accessible). Or it's a favor to a high-value
ex-Googler. Google's been known to pay big numbers to keep key people happy;
maybe they're making a long-term investment in Luis von Ahn under the
assumption he may come back some day.

