
Microsoft Surface Laptop Teardown - kevlar1818
https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Laptop+Teardown/92915
======
Animats
That's the price of "thin". We should expect mobile electronics to be sealed
watertight at the factory.

There's a tradeoff between repairable and bulky. Here's a repair job of
mine.[1] This is restoring a Teletype Model 15 from the 1930s. These are
completely reparable - every part can be removed without damage. IFixit would
give it a score of 10. It's big, heavy, loud, and drips oil, but completely
repairable.

[1]
[http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,43672.0.html](http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,43672.0.html)

~~~
awinder
Oh come on there's some middleground where you can have repairability without
bulky. Macbook pros are not bulky but you can absolutely get inside them to
repair & replace parts.

~~~
lotso
They don't seem to have a teardown of the latest MacBook Pros, but looking at
the MacBook, it looks like they are heading in the same direction.
[https://www.ifixit.com/Device/Retina_MacBook_2017](https://www.ifixit.com/Device/Retina_MacBook_2017)

~~~
devoply
I have a 2011 Macbook that I am writing on. I believe that's the perfect
compromise. Anything more than this at least for me is going in the wrong
direction. Solid (aluminum body), powerful (i7 16gb ram), and repairable. If
you just kept making more powerful versions of this size and repair-ability I
would be a happy camper.

------
dmalvarado
You can't eat your cake and have it too. Sleeker, smaller, thinner, cheaper,
MOAR BATTERY.

That's what the market wants. If the market wanted ClunkBox perpetual computer
that was infinitely upgradeable, there would be an option out there.

(I'll admit though, the glue is kind of weird. But I guess a natural
progression when "no one opens these things anyway")

~~~
throwaway91111
> If the market wanted ClunkBox perpetual computer that was infinitely
> upgradeable, there would be an option out there.

I'm not so sure this is true. What kind of company would produce reliable
hardware that you could maintain over decades? Where's the money in making
something that high quality?

~~~
dragonwriter
> What kind of company would produce reliable hardware that you could maintain
> over decades?

A company whose business model was renting out hardware or services requiring
the hardware, rather than selling hardware.

But, yeah, that's not what your really looking for.

------
sputknick
This sounds to me like a specific instance of the "most users don't want it,
so we won't provide it" problem in computing. Similar to the lack of MacBook
for power users. People who want to open their laptop are a tiny minority of
users, and thus, not a population worth addressing.

~~~
unknown2374
That is very untrue. In most places in the world (and with most classes of
people), the standard is to repair your laptop if it breaks, not buying a new
one. Among certain people, and probably within the bias group you and I are
coming from, the norm is to replace laptops every 3-4 years, but that is so
not the case for a lot of the other groups of people and geography.

~~~
sputknick
That's a very fair point. Maybe what those people need is a laptop that looks
more like the ones we had 15 years ago that are larger, and easier to
manipulate. However, the universe of people who will get rid of a laptop once
it stops working is large enough, that a company can be very successful
addressing just those people. Maybe the answer to your statement is someone
needs to make low cost laptops that are thick, heavy, cheap, and maintainable?
The problem is whatever company that is will not be marketing themselves as
"cutting edge".

~~~
khedoros1
Why do they need to be thick and heavy? Mine has a 15.6" screen, Weighs around
5lbs (slightly under), and is under 3/4" thick. It could be lighter if the
case were made out of plastic instead of aluminum. It's about half the
thickness and 60% the weight of my previous laptop, but still has user-
replaceable components (I upgraded the RAM and added an HDD after purchasing
it).

------
jaclaz
As a side note, I always liked this approach:

[http://surfacepro3ssdupgrade.blogspot.it/2015/02/surface-
pro...](http://surfacepro3ssdupgrade.blogspot.it/2015/02/surface-pro-3-ssd-
upgrade-i7-with-1-tb.html)

to change the SSD in a Surface 3.

(you need some guts to follow it)

But still it is possible, and it is clear that making a "proper" small
cover/latch door for allowing changing that would have costed nothing or next
to nothing to MS, and added nothing to thickness, so it is IMHO a "political"
decision to accelerate the obsolescence of these devices or to attempt to
create a repair monopoly, not unlike what Apple attempted (and to a certain
extent managed to succeed with).

------
foobarchu
I'm a little worried what this says about the actual repair process. If I
bought one, had an issue, and sent it to Microsoft, would they just throw it
away and send me a new one? I'm pretty sure other companies already do this,
but it feels like a massive amount of waste generated in the name of cost
savings. Especially with the decline of rare earth materials required for
these things.

~~~
bpye
Microsoft can probably scrap it for some parts, screen, keyboard, trackpad,
motherboard, speakers, chassis. The cover on the keyboard looks like it's once
use though.

~~~
dlp211
Exactly, they'll take what can be reused, get the additional parts, and sell a
refurbished unit.

------
sxates
Aren't these devices being targeted at the education sector, where they may be
assigned to students? Is there perhaps some design intent here to prevent
tampering?

One other potential benefit may be less worry about your laptop shipment being
intercepted in Langley before delivery.

~~~
npunt
If they are targeted at the education sector, as in deployed in schools, they
should be MORE repairable. Students wreck stuff they don't own.

For instance, latest (non-Pro) iPad went back to a more repairable chassis
that educators are liking because the screen is much easier to replace. And
Chromebooks are so cheap if they break it's not a huge loss.

I don't think the Surface is particularly targeted to edu enough to alter
their hardware assembly decisions though.

~~~
jermaustin1
> Students wreck stuff they don't own.

Students wreck stuff the DO own, as well.

~~~
Retr0spectrum
* Stuff their parents bought for them.

------
abandonliberty
Why do we link to Vice rather than the people who actually did the work?

[https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Laptop+Tea...](https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Laptop+Teardown/92915)

~~~
drannex
Because reading the ifixit teardown is actually quite boring. At least the
article pointed out literally everything of substance in the teardown.

Vice is just an easier way to read it overall.

------
adrianN
I wish the EU would come up with some law that forces all computers to be
upgradeable. At least RAM, storage, and batteries should be easily
exchangeable by a normal user.

~~~
thrill
Define computer. Should Apple be required to make their phones with user
replaceable RAM, storage, and power? How about their wristwatches?

~~~
tracker1
I would say any battery powered electronic device should be required to allow
user replacement of said batteries.

I would extend to say that any computing device costing over X amount (say
$1000 USD) have user replacement ability to also include input device(s),
memory and storage. Too many laptops are tossed because the keyboard wears
out, or the drive dies.

~~~
dogma1138
I'll take water resistance over replaceable battery any day of the week.

~~~
tracker1
Have you never heard of a gasket?

~~~
dogma1138
Have you ever heard of physics? The pressure that the gasket can withstand is
tied to the clamping pressure the circumference of the gasket and its cross
section.

It works ok with watches that have a very small area and can use double
gaskets which are clamped very very strongly.

The same thing will not work with a mm or thiner piece of plastic that is kept
in place by its flex and a few hooks.

If you can design a chassis with a replaceable battery which is waterproof and
is not substantially thicker than modern smartphones a lot of companies would
like to have a chat with you.

~~~
pwnna
Thinkpads have been water resistant for many many years now. Recently, this
video[1] shows coffee, wine, water being poured on a T440s without problems.
The thickness of that laptop is 0.8in. This laptop comes with 2 separate
replaceable battery so you can even hot swap them.

Recent thinkpad X1Cs are only 0.65in and have user serviceable batteries via
just a couple screws. So it's definitely not a crazy hard feat to pull this
off.

Granted this is not a waterproof laptop, it is simply water resistant (no
dropping into the pool). However, that seems to be what you're asking for in
your original reply. The only question remains what you believe to be
"substantially thicker than a modern smartphone".

[1]: [https://youtu.be/0U5n2WaMMHo?t=60](https://youtu.be/0U5n2WaMMHo?t=60)

------
city41
I guess Microsoft's plan if someone's Surface has a problem is to just give
them a whole new one?

~~~
djsumdog
Microsoft wanted to beat Sony on the 360 launch so they shipped a system they
knew had serious cooling problems. They ended up losing tens of millions on
that though.

------
ocdtrekkie
As much as I kinda loathe this tendency, like the ways most people treat
phones, these "luxury"-style laptops like the Surface and MacBook brands I
kind of assume to be as-is.

Most of the people who can afford to spend that kind of money on a high-price
laptop with mid-range specs are the sort to buy a new one in a year or two
anyhow.

If someone's looking for a computer to last them a number of years, I
generally wouldn't recommend a Surface product. A mid-range Acer or Dell is
not as pretty or thin, but is going to be easier to repair and upgrade over
time.

~~~
sliken
Back when Mercedes-Benz was less of a luxury car it was fairly common for
people to buy them and keep them 2-3 times as long as the average car. Better
engineering, better materials, and better design. While enjoying a lower cost
to own and a better resale value.

Laptops used to be like that as well. A serious use would pay top $$$ and get
a well built "tank" of a device. The designs changed less often, parts
availability was good, and the more likely parts to break (charging ports,
keyboards, and batteries) were replaceable.

Now the opposite has happened. The cheap crappy laptops are easier to work on,
and the expensive laptops are thin, sealed, and impossible to work on.

Sad.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
Different markets. Ever tried a Dell Precision Mobile Workstation? They're
beautiful laptops. High-quality parts, easily repairable, parts are
plentifully available. Lot of upgrade and expansion potential.

Also as large as a small New York apartment.

Why does one assume the Surface Laptop (or MacBook Air) is supposed to meet
all possible needs?

------
LostWanderer
I always wonder if there will ever be a modular laptop coming out with a 10 to
15 year lifetime.

Whenever there is a technological stabilization round the corner,There is
another different kind of device created and people run towards the new
device.

------
kbumsik
0 out of 10? Omg I've never seen this score before! Are there any devices got
zero score in ifixit?

------
ge96
Oh man that picture slicing through the body with a razor blade made me cringe
hahaha. WHYYYYYYYY

------
acd
Environment score 0

~~~
dlp211
You can't actually make that claim at all based off of this. Repairability =/=
environmentally friendly.

------
sbierwagen
You can't _take apart_ a surface laptop without destroying it. "Open" in a
laptop context sounds to me more like... opening it, you know, so you can see
the display and type on the keyboard.

~~~
kinkrtyavimoodh
Yes, would request @dang to modify the title.

~~~
zitterbewegung
Modify the title and point it to iFixit which is a better source.
[https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Laptop+Tea...](https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Laptop+Teardown/92915)

~~~
sctb
Thanks, all! We've updated the link from
[https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/you-cant-open-
the...](https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/you-cant-open-the-
microsoft-surface-laptop-without-literally-destroying-it). (The best way to
get our attention for things like this is to email hn@ycombinator.com)

~~~
kevlar1818
While I understand why you changed the link, I don't completely agree with the
executive action.

I don't like having my name attached to a link I didn't want shared. Vice is a
high-quality publication, and it brought a compelling angle to the iFixit
review. As the OP, I wanted to share the Vice article (which links to the
iFixit review).

------
jp555
Not to mention Alcantara is a pretty horrible product that will wear away
quickly -
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aebUNgMhQV4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aebUNgMhQV4)

~~~
Roritharr
I don't know why you are being downvoted, this is a valid concern. Microsoft
should have at least come up with a solution to exchange/replace these with
something more sturdy.

~~~
strictnein
Do you think they just randomly chose a material and did no stress/durability
testing on it?

A random video from some random guy about car applications of the material is
about as unrelated as possible. You're not sitting on the material for 2-3
hours a day.

~~~
nxc18
Microsoft has a long history of not making durable products.

I've been a bit of a fan boy, and all but one piece of Microsoft hardware I've
owned has needed factory service. Xbox 360, Zune 80, Surface RT, Surface 3,
Surface Pen, Nokia 920. Its embarrassing. Only my Xbox One has been spared,
but I've used it less than 100 hours, so who knows how it would fare if I
actually used it.

I've never met a surface owner who didn't have a serious hardware or software
failure within the warranty period. Its embarrassing. Questioning the validity
of their product design is 100% valid.

------
TailorJones
Horrible auto-play video

------
bitmapbrother
The people that are trying to justify that this is the price you pay for
thinness is sickening to me. No, this is the price you pay for inferior
engineering. Anything that can be assembled should be able to be disassembled
without breaking it.

~~~
mee_too
Simply not true. As en extreme example the human body is assembled by bio
machinery, how do you disassemble it without breaking it?

------
Lordarminius
_The Surface laptops, perhaps with the exception of 2012 's Surface RT, have
earned generally positive reviews, with critics variously commending Microsoft
(Microsoft!) for designing attractive-looking hardware that doubles as a
reference point for its vision of what a modern Windows-based laptop should
look like. Unfortunately for consumers, this seductive vision is apparently
incompatible with being able to extend the laptop's useful lifespan on your
own_

This 'seductive vision' is also a direct assault on the consumers right and
prerogative (once taken for granted) that he(she) own and do with as he deems
fit, any item purchased with his money. First, the abominable Windows 10 which
is a brazen intrusion on users privacy; now the Surface. What else MS ?

~~~
dlp211
There is no assault on the consumer here, you can do whatever you like with
the device once it is in your possession. No one is forcing you to buy this.

~~~
Lordarminius
_...you can do whatever you like with the device once it is in your
possession...._

But you literally cant. Isn't that the point at issue ?

I marvel at many responses here that explain this to a "design" issue, "this
is what the market wants". No it is not. It is a malicious attempt by Msft to
dispossess you of your money and what used to be an unwritten consumer right.
We are expected to accept this as the new normal. These companies (msft,apple,
etc) are treading the same path as Deere, the tractor makers. How has that
turned out for farmers ?

~~~
dlp211
The difference of course is that in the Deere case, it is a DMCA issue (read
legal). Msft is not stopping you in any way from putting the OS that you want
on the device, it is not stopping you from opening the device, it isn't even
preventing you from upgrading the device.

Now have they made it really difficult to do so because of the design choices
they made, yes, absolutely, but they are in no way actually preventing you
from doing something with the device. You don't have some inherent right to
have a device that is easy to disassemble.

And the market absolutely wants this. I've owned probably a dozen laptops over
the last 15 years or so and the only upgrade I ever did was to add more RAM. I
haven't upgraded a laptop in the last 5 years and I always am sure to purchase
my laptop with a healthy set of RAM. These devices (Surface and Macbook) are
not trying to compete with the $200 devices. They are trying to capture the
top 10%(read: those with disposable income) of the market.

Panos Panay, Terry Myerson, and Satya Nadella all didn't sit around figuring
out how to screw Lordarminius out of their money. They designed a device that
the market wanted. Combine the market wants with the fact that there really is
just no need to upgrade/update like we used to even just 10 years ago, and
this design choice makes perfect sense. My OG 15" Macbook Retina Pro is still
a solid laptop today despite being over 5 years old.

