
Five Days in the Valley: An East Coaster's Take on Silicon Valley vs. NYC - besvinick
http://ventureminded.me/post/16717285524/five-days-in-the-valley
======
bane
As a life-long East Coaster I'd also add this:

There's an optimism that permeates and reinforces the entrepreneurial spirit
in the bay area that the East doesn't have anymore. It's a kind of frontier,
the world is my oyster, I can do anything kind of thinking, that's needed in
this kind of highly speculative industry.

On the downside, coming from the East Coast, it _feels_ weird at times,
interacting with SV folks. Bringing up obvious concerns or problems is met
more with a "why are you poo pooing my optimism buzz?" more often than valid
concerns taken as a serious consideration. The hyper-optimism is _socially_
reinforced, I have _my_ head in the clouds, you have yours, it's rude to bring
anyone down.

As an outsider, it seems to explain certain bizarre behaviors I'd encountered
when dealing with West Coast firms, usually centered on outrageous and
unjustifiable expenditures of their VC money before the company has made any
sort of sniffs at being profitable.

~~~
CPlatypus
Well put, although I'm not quite sure "optimism" is the right term. Is it
optimistic or egotistical for every SV engineer to believe that they are
capable of creating a company worth a nine-figure IPO or acquisition - or,
alternatively, that they can personally increase an established company's
bottom line by a million a year? Somewhere in between, I'd guess. Partly it's
overestimation of the market, partly it's overestimation of the self. Either
way, it does seem to be a difference between SV and elsewhere. SV
entrepreneurs believe they can succeed because it never even occurred to them
to believe otherwise and of course nobody else would suggest such a thing.
Entrepreneurs elsewhere are generally more aware of doubts and concerns, but
consciously intend to prove the nay-sayers wrong.

Is one approach or mindset better than the other? It's tempting to say that
the financial success of SV validates that approach, but I don't think that
success occurs in a vacuum. Could those SV companies get where they are
without past contributions from MIT or Bell Labs, current ones from Austin or
Seattle? I don't think so. An army needs more than one kind of soldier, an
industry needs more than one kind of company, and just because SV seems to hog
all the glamour doesn't mean other places are somehow lacking.

~~~
mgkimsal
"SV entrepreneurs believe they can succeed because it never even occurred to
them to believe otherwise and of course nobody else would suggest such a
thing. "

And many of them would be the first to also trot out the old cannards of "90%
of all startups fail" and so on, they just don't really believe it, or don't
believe _their_ project will fail, regardless of the evidence.

~~~
wisty
And every WWI soldier believed he'd make it through the barbed wire and
machine gun bullets, otherwise none of them would stick around.

I guess the difference is, finding out the hard way that you burnt through all
your funding and have to look for another job is hardly comparable to getting
shot. And some of them (at least, enough to make the VC firms stick around) do
succeed.

------
skrebbel
Offtopic, I know, but in fact I'm most interested how this guy becomes a VC 2
years out of university after being a telecom banker, and "advices startups".
Does this mean he's nonsense (e.g. no startup experience), or am I missing
something fundamental?

Needless to say, deep inside I'm just jealous.

~~~
barry-cotter
Venture Capital is one of the standard exit opportunities for I-Banking
analysts along with Private Equity, Hedge Funds and Corporate Finance.

VC is in large part a sales job (selling potentail limited partners on your
future returns) and anyone who can survive two years as an analyst is both
intelligent, conscientious, has a prodigous capacity for work and is likely
personable. All of these are helpful for being an entry level VC, who acts as
coffe boy, secretary, research assistant etc.

But that's not the prize, the prize is impressing somene enough to actually
make partner, for which the roadmap goes _Here Be Dragons_.

And remember, over 90% of VC funds lose money. I would be mildly surprised if
the prestige (and return) funds didn't have more diverse backgrounds than the
money bonfires.

------
djb_hackernews
I'm a software guy in DC with friends in different industries, and I don't
find myself talking politics any more frequently than when I lived in Boston.
Something tells me that would be different if I was a staffer/intern on the
hill though.

The author is a bit over confident in his opinions for me, but a summer
schmoozing in SV sure sounds nice.

~~~
funkah
I lived in DC for about 6 years, never worked in politics, and his statement
rings true to me. Even if you're not involved in politics, pretty much
everyone else around you is, and it tends to just permeate everyone's life.
One of the main reasons I left, actually.

~~~
Game_Ender
Traffic and housing prices is another good reason, but if you left for the
Valley, you did not really escape that.

~~~
funkah
My feeling is, at least in California you're getting something for your money.
DC rents are high because the average income there is so high, but you don't
get very much "city" for your money, culturally at least. In SF it's just the
opposite. I didn't move there though, I live in Oregon now.

~~~
potatolicious
> _"but you don't get very much "city" for your money"_

It's typical in SF to pay $2K+ for a 1BR overlooking a back alley where
homeless and drunks fight every night, where your neighborhood is contested by
gang wars, your building is a creaky little Victorian built at the turn of the
century, where a favorite topic of conversation are routes you can take to get
from point A to point B in the city that maximizes personal safety, and only-
half-joking comments about getting mugged on the bus.

It's not the worst city in the USA to live in, but having lived here for six
months now, and many major cities in two continents before that, I honestly
think SF is completely overblown. It strikes me as a city where a bunch of
suburban folk come after college and are blown away by all the Big City(tm)
things, and every negative point simply becomes "how cities are", despite many
other cities not suffering the same crime, housing, or other social ills.

If it weren't for the booming and incredibly professionally satisfying tech
scene, I'd have high-tailed it to a city where rents are halved, crime is
quartered, and transportation not so sucktastic.

~~~
tptacek
As true today as when he wrote it:

<http://www.salon.com/1999/11/03/sf/>

It's an incredibly satisfying place to be a tech company employee, by the way.
It's less satisfying to be a founder there, unless you're in it as much for
the social scene as to run a business. The noise level is crazy, the
distractions are extreme, the battle for talent is fevered, the costs are
stratospheric.

------
Jun8
I'm not familiar with the NYC or Boston startup scene, but I think that
arguing that _any_ city is going to overtake SV anytime soon is naive (as the
OP found out himself).

SV or, more correctly the greater Bay Area, is to tech entrepreneurship as LA
is to movies. Sure, you can become a star in NYC or somewhere else but
everybody just _knows_ that if you want to increase your chances, you've gotta
go to LA. As Shawn Mullins says in _Lullaby_ for LA:

    
    
      it's hard to play a gig in this town
      and keep a straight face
      seems like everyone here's got a plan
      it's kind of like Nashville with a tan
    

Well, SV is "kind of like LA with a pwn" (I'm trying to rhyme, too). Just as
any waiter or waitress and everybody's neighbor in LA wants to make it big in
the movies, so it is in SV. The buzz of ambition in the air can be unsettling
to many people.

Interestingly, the movie industry started in NYC, then moved to LA in the
1910s and 20s
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinema_of_the_United_States#Ori...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinema_of_the_United_States#Origins)).
Read that part of the Wikipedia article carefully, as many of the reasons for
SV's dominance are pretty much the same.

~~~
saalweachter
Yeah, it's kind of hilarious that California's biggest selling point was that
it's really far from New Jersey. (Well, that and its somewhat corrupt (or at
least, California-biased) judges a century ago.)

If only New York City could be as far from New Jersey as California is--

~~~
bitops
Also interesting is the fact that Hollywood was about an hour's travel from
the Mexican border.

This mattered in the early days of movies, when Edison's patent enforcers
would show up to demand payment for people using cameras. The early filmmakers
didn't want to pay and skipping to Mexico while the goons were in town was a
good way to avoid those "expenditures".

------
PaulHoule
If you want to get out of the echo chamber your best choice might be "none of
the above". Both NYC and the bay area are fishtanks.

You see ads for location-based services and you always see a map centered on
SF. Well, I can say I never felt dumber than the day a friend and I were using
a "smartphone" to look for lunch in SF and it kept sending us to places that
were closed and we kept walking past places that were open.

~~~
untog
_If you want to get out of the echo chamber your best choice might be "none of
the above". Both NYC and the bay area are fishtanks._

But if you want to get funding you're better off in the fish tank.

~~~
hga
And perhaps talent; the unenforceability of non-competes seems to be a game
changer. It's clearly a unique advantage for California.

~~~
untog
There is a flip side to that- talent has a habit of leaving companies very
quickly in SV. I have read (but can't remember where, which is annoying) that
NYC hasn't quite reached those levels yet.

~~~
hga
Which of course suggests that since the traditional IPO is dead (except for
the occasional impossible to predict ahead of time massive success), that
companies need to treat their talent well.

If you require legal handcuffs to keep them, something's _very_ wrong,
something that stands a good chance of killing your company anyway.

For America as a whole, the industry, pushing forward the state of the art,
etc. etc. this liquid talent market is very good. Overall talent moves from
companies with poor to good (or at least better) prospects; overall especially
in the long term this is how the capital markets work. Bad if your name is
Kodak, good otherwise.

------
rockarage
As an East Coasters I get the feeling there are two distinct groups in Silicon
Alley (NYC). One group is represented by people like the author of this
article, who has a limited knowledge of Silicon Alley, and write articles
based on their limited experience. The other group are highly involved in SA
activities like these :

[http://www.betabeat.com/2012/01/30/the-best-tech-events-
this...](http://www.betabeat.com/2012/01/30/the-best-tech-events-this-week-
aarrr-edition/)

<http://generalassemb.ly/events-page>

[http://www.betabeat.com/2012/01/29/art-hack-day-
brooklyn-319...](http://www.betabeat.com/2012/01/29/art-hack-day-
brooklyn-319-scholes/)

<http://www.wixlounge.com/#!calender>

There are plenty of smart people who spend think about tech night and day, and
disagree that the best and brightest are primarily in fiance. To many people
fiance are causing more harm to the country then good.

------
asmithmd1
"even soccer moms in Starbucks with their toddlers were talking about the
latest apps on their iPhones."

This is happening everywhere. My 64 year old mother in law from Florida loads
apps on her iPhone.

~~~
bobf
My observation has been that "the latest apps" being discussed are pretty
different in SV and Florida.

~~~
gamechangr
I agree! There is a point of critical mass where apps are loaded everywhere.

It would be interesting to know more specifics.

------
seanmccann
The author wrote a post about how NYC will overtake SV after only visiting SV
for job interviews. They are an "aspiring VC" and think Sand Hill Road is
underwhelming. I am still blown away by SHR, and the density of power. It's
also a lot different when you're going for crucial meetings on SHR, and not
just driving through.

------
itmag
I saw that movie "Friends with benefits", which made the East-West divide out
to be a big deal. Is it, though?

~~~
bh42222
I'm guessing you are being dowvoted because people think you are joking?

I am going to assume you are not American and that this is an honest question.

There is real culture difference between the large areas of America, north vs
south, east vs west, etc. Now speaking as someone form the old world,
America's cultural differences are still very small compared to differences
between old world neighbors. Never the less, cultural differences in America
do exist.

I'd say north/south is a bigger deal than east/west. And when ever I hear east
coast Americans talk about California, it sounds a lot like how Europeans talk
about Americans in general - optimistic, the world is my oyster, etc.

~~~
itmag
_I am going to assume you are not American and that this is an honest
question._

Yup, you guessed right.

The Americans I've met here in Sweden have been pretty homogenous as a whole,
didn't matter if they were from SF or Kansas or Boston. They all seemed like
liberal-minded europhile people. Then again, heavy selection bias.

~~~
bh42222
Ah yes, I had very same experience with Americans when I was still living in
Europe. You are right, heavy selection bias it is, any American who gets on a
plane and happily visit a foreign country, especially an expensive one, is not
exactly representing the majority of Americans. You'd be surprised how many
solidly middle class Americans have never been abroad, or only to Mexico and
Canada.

~~~
mdda
30% of Americans have passports [1]. And :

"Despite the climbing number of American passports in circulation, 30% is
still low compared to Canada's 60% and the United Kingdom's 75%."

[1] :
[http://articles.cnn.com/2011-02-04/travel/americans.travel.d...](http://articles.cnn.com/2011-02-04/travel/americans.travel.domestically_1_western-
hemisphere-travel-initiative-passports-tourism-industries)

~~~
evgen
While I hate to defend American parochialism, it is worth noting that
Americans can see a far greater diversity of cultures and geographies without
leaving their country than is possible in most other places. A Londoner would
cross six or seven national boundaries by covering less distance than it takes
me to actually leave this country. There are a great mass of Americans who
have no interest in travel and I can only pit them, but there are also a large
group who travel quite extensively and never need a passport.

~~~
bh42222
_... it is worth noting that Americans can see a far greater diversity of
cultures and geographies without leaving their country than is possible in
most other places._

This is plainly false. Just two quick examples: No difference within the
states is as big as the difference between French and English speaking parts
of Canada. And a tiny country like Switzerland encompasses French, German and
Italian speaking populations.

 _A Londoner would cross six or seven national boundaries by covering less
distance than it takes me to actually leave this country._

This contradicts your first sentence. Also a Londoner will meet several
nationalities, I don't know what you mean by "boundaries." Also a New Yorker
should be right up there with Londoners.

~~~
bane
You've obviously never gone from NYC to coastal Alabama in a single trip, or
Hawaii to Southern Texas, or hell Washington D.C. to rural West Virginia. Sure
there are plenty of accents, but some are almost outright dialects.

I'd argue that English and French Canada are about as different as any of
these pairs.

~~~
bh42222
_I'd argue that English and French Canada are about as different as any of
these pairs._

Really? You speak English, you can go to any shop in Hawaii, NYC, Alabama or
Texas and buy what ever you want.

I am sure you can do the same in Toronto. Could you do the same in Montreal if
you don't speak French and the clerk doesn't speak English?

If you don't speak French, are red-green color blind and have never noticed
the hexagonal shape of a certain street sign, do you know what you should do
in your car when you see "Arrest" on a street sign?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the difference between Montreal and
Toronto is _plainly_ , objectively and obviously greater than that between any
two places in the US.

Even in the French heavy parts of Maine and Louisiana at least the street
signs are still in English.

~~~
bane
It's funny that you specifically call out Montreal. I've spent quite a bit of
time in Quebec over the years and I don't recall having much trouble getting
what I wanted from shop keepers.

Or put another way, I had about as much trouble as I did in France and about
as much as some really Cajun parts of Louisiana -- and I don't speak French.

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BRXcpBIteEM#t=24s)

I'm from the mid-Atlantic, but have had significant issues in parts of
Alabama/Arkansas both with being understood and understanding them, parts of
Miami, and even parts of Washington D.C.!

In Alabama and Arkansas I also found that I ate very different foods, parts of
animals and plants prepared in ways I wouldn't normally eat - lizards, organs
and frogs oh my! On the contrary the food in Quebec seemed pretty familiar
except for the Poutine.

In Hawaii there are more East Asians and Pacific Islanders than Caucasians.
There are parts of the Islands where you might not be intelligible unless you
speak Tagalog or Japanese, it has an economy built around tourism and they eat
more spam than the rest of the U.S. it has _royal palaces_. It's about as
comparable to New York City as Zurich is.

In fact I've felt more at home in Florence than I did in Greenville, Alabama.
In Texas, my friends thought nothing of pulling off to the side of the road at
a BBQ pit and eating beef off of Styrofoam plates in a rickety shack where we
brought our own beer. I couldn't imagine doing that anywhere north of D.C.

Yes my friend, America really has very different cultures.

~~~
itmag
_In Texas, my friends thought nothing of pulling off to the side of the road
at a BBQ pit and eating beef off of Styrofoam plates in a rickety shack where
we brought our own beer. I couldn't imagine doing that anywhere north of D.C._

That sounds _awesome_. What's that kind of eatery called? :)

~~~
bane
I'm not sure.

I still haven't quite figured out what a Honkey Tonk is. The locals seemed to
know what I meant when I called it a Bar-B-Que pit.

Oh, and it was all smoked brisket. Which we don't really have as such here on
the East Coast, we tend to do pork or chicken, in a sweeter sauce.

Some of the places have grown up a bit over the decades and have other meats
and pies and biscuits and things now.

<http://www.saltlickbbq.com/> is one that started as a pit and apparantely
hung on to become slightly more established.

"But in 1967, Thurman, who was known for his delicious barbeque at family
reunions, decided he would cook meat for paying customers. Thurman and his two
sons built a huge barbeque pit. Thurman would go to the pit on Thursday night
and start cooking. He stayed for the weekend, sleeping on a cot, until all the
meat sold. He kept coming home earlier and earlier. After a few months, the
boys and Thurman built a little screen porch around the pit. The Salt Lick has
grown from there. The Roberts family now serves mouthwatering barbeque to
thousands of folks each week."

------
robterrell
He had me until "Cameron Indoor". Come on: Dean Dome FTW, Cameron's a dumpy
high school gym.

Anyway, as someone who has spent ten years on each coast, it's impossible to
disagree with his overall sentiment. There's an energy and vitality in the bay
area that is completely lacking in other places.

People love to talk about their local tech community, and I've found myself
talking up Raleigh and Durham and the American Tobacco Campus and whatnot, but
I know it's just a pale imitation.

Take some meetings with VCs in each location; the difference is eye-opening.

~~~
soemoea
I second this thought. I grew up in the Bay Area and worked for a few years as
a programmer at a startup there. I've also been going to school in the Raleigh
area (Chapel Hill) for almost 2 years now.

I've heard the media reports saying how the Raleigh Triangle area is a growing
tech hub but I honestly don't see it. It pales so much in comparison to the
Bay Area. There are some people interested in entrepreneurship and technology
but it's still really hard to find them. It's hard not to run into these kinds
of people in the Bay Area. One point of evidence is in looking at how many
meetup groups and members are focused on technology and entrepreneurship in
each area, and there is a stark difference.

Also, the Dean Dome is amazing. I'd rate it better than Oracle Arena.

~~~
ericboggs
Hey there! I'm a 2x Tar Heel and the Founder/CEO at <http://argylesocial.com>
in Durham. Shoot me a note via @ericboggs or <http://ericboggs.com> \- I'd
love to meet up.

------
Yhippa
FTA: "The commute between SV and SF is absolutely brutal. If the West Coast
had NYC’s density of startups and investors, I don’t think NYC would ever have
a chance of catching and passing SV."

I thought it was one of the most beautiful commutes in the world personally.

~~~
rdoherty
He was referring to the amount of traffic (mostly likely on highway 101). I've
done that commute a few times and if you're driving during rush hour (7am-10am
or 4pm-7pm) it can take 2x-3x times longer than normal.

~~~
bitops
101 is pretty bad. When I worked on the peninsula I'd always take 280 and cut
over on 92. It'd take a little bit longer, but it was way better in terms of
my mental health.

------
danielharan
~ "I thought my city would win over Silicon Valley, and then I visited the
place. Ooops"

A plea: next time you hear someone comparing their city to SV, take them aside
privately and tell them to book a ticket on the next plane going to the
Valley.

------
kemiller
I'm not sure what he's talking about wrt density of startups in NYC versus
SF/SV. San Francisco is positively bursting with startups.

~~~
untog
I think he means the area as a whole- that is, if you were an investor
visiting various startups, you'd be bouncing between SV and SF, and in
between. In NYC almost all startups are based in Lower Manhattan- you could
walk from office to office.

~~~
saalweachter
That is definitely true. A one mile radius around Union Square probably hits a
substantial fraction of the tech in NYC.

------
jsavimbi
I'm sorry, but I immediately qualified the post with:

> I'm a first-year student at Harvard Business School

