
Naomi Wolf: My Creeping Concern That The NSA Leaker Is Not Who He Purports To Be - ferdo
https://www.facebook.com/notes/naomi-wolf/my-creeping-concern-that-the-nsa-leaker-is-not-who-he-purports-to-be-/10151559239607949
======
calhoun137
This article is complete and utter bullshit.

Disregarding the obviously silly idea that he is a fraud because he is
organized and well spoken, her basic point seems to be that since he doesn't
have a lawyer present during media interviews, then Snowden is an actor
basically playing a role in a news story created by the NSA whose purpose is
to scare people from becoming whistle blowers.

Give me a break.

~~~
fleitz
Snowden is seems like a student of machiavelli far more than american
idealism. He has an objective and is doing the best job he can to make that
objective happen.

Which would contrast highly with most whistleblowers who believe that doing
the right thing will result in their objective happening.

~~~
discostrings
Perhaps he looked at the results of other recent whistleblowers "doing the
right thing" and realized that releasing information without the right
choreography would end in no attention from the media or public about the
issue and a ton of trouble for himself?

In an ideal world, he could release the information and each individual would
engage with it, analyze it, make determinations about it, and judge whether or
not it is important.

In our world, if he had followed the path of previous whistleblowers and given
the information to a newspaper and returned to his house in Hawaii, he likely
would have been immediately arrested, and the newspaper would have published
very limited yet broad information in a single article in a way that would be
easy for the rest of the media to dismiss. Then the character attacks would
have overwhelmed the story.

Like it or not, presentation is important. Snowden has claimed his objective
is making sure people know about these programs so they can decide about them.
That objective, and his path thus far, seems perfectly in line with American
idealism.

~~~
GHFigs
_In an ideal world, he could release the information and each individual would
engage with it, analyze it, make determinations about it, and judge whether or
not it is important._

Thats this world, minus the people that keep "choreographing" things so they
have the "right" impact.

~~~
codehalo
Can you send me an invite?

------
mtgx
Greenwald was talking to him since January or February. So yeah, I think he
had time to prepare what he'd say in front of a camera for a few minutes in
this historic moment...Wouldn't you do the same? Or would you rather sound
like a blabbering idiot?

~~~
tome
So the NSA is this organisation which can tell what you are saying to anyone
else, yet it failed to realise that Snowden was talking to Greenwald for about
six months?

~~~
etherael
I read about him asking Greenwald to setup PGP some time ago and him not
actually communicating with him until that happened.

[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/10/edward-snowden-
glen...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/10/edward-snowden-glenn-
greenwald_n_3416978.html)

So, reading between the lines, PGP is safe, but that's hardly headline news.

~~~
vidarh
Crypto is "safe enough" based on an idea of how long the data needs to be
protected. Best case it is "safe" for the time it will take to brute force the
entire key space, but in reality most crypto will remain safe much shorter
than that.

We've increased typical keysizes for PGP many times over the years because we
expect there's a reasonable change for smaller keys to be broken too quickly.

In other words: You should not infer that PGP is "safe", but that he believed
PGP with the key size he used would protect the messages until it doesn't
matter if they're revealed _at least from the level of monitoring he feared_ ,
which could just mean safe against routine intercepts and security scans for
the few months until his identity was revealed anyway.

------
tptacek
Open speculation about intelligence programs is a little bit like numerology.
If you start looking for patterns to fit narratives to, you'll find them.

~~~
antiterra
Maybe they're trying to trick us into thinking that they're trying to trick us
so that they can trick us by trying to trick us into thinking we're being
tricked!

~~~
Breakthrough
Sounds like Daniel Suarez' novel Daemon.

TL,DR: Programmer dies but his program manipulates the world after his death,
then the US government spreads word that the program is a hoax, so later in
the novel most people disbelieve that such a program can even exist (because
the government "disproved" it!), hindering any chance that society would even
believe that something like this _existed_ , let alone was _possible_.

I just wanted to throw it out there to illustrate the parallels of the plot in
the novel with the current things happening right now...

------
skore
a) Or he might just be a regular Nerd who cares about details.

b) Or he might just be a regular Nerd who took a long time to think about this
stuff.

c) Or he might just be a regular Nerd with the typical emotional detachment
from what he is doing while still being deeply intellectual invested.

d) Pure speculation without any weighting.

e) What?

f) Ah good, it's not like he addressed this point in particular.

g) Meta Speculation.

h) Well that doesn't even begin to make sense.

It's funny - she actually has a point. But the point can stand on its own, all
the points she is clearly making up actually serve to cheapen that point.

~~~
alex_doom
Basically it's a really nice compliment. In a roundabout way.

You're smart enough to look at history, prepare, be presentable and don't even
need a lawyer. BOOM.

~~~
davidcuddeback
Reminds me of the populists who tried to enact change in ancient Rome. One of
them would call for reform and end up murdered. The next one would find
protection before calling for reform, but ended up murdered anyway. Each
successive would-be reformer learned from the mistakes of his predecessors and
changed his strategy accordingly. A couple of the reformers whose names I can
remember are Tiberius Gracchus [1] and his brother Gaius Gracchus [2]. One of
my favorite podcasts has an excellent six-part series on the fall of the
western Roman empire, which introduced me to this very topic [3].

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberius_Gracchus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberius_Gracchus)

[2]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaius_Gracchus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaius_Gracchus)

[3]
[http://www.dancarlin.com//disp.php?page=hharchive](http://www.dancarlin.com//disp.php?page=hharchive)

------
rsync
I'm suspicious too. The Hong Kong part is what irks me - I cannot imagine
making that choice, given a world of asylum options. His line of reasoning is
borderline incomprehensible.

Add that to the concerted effort of the powers that be to paint China as our
cyber-terror-enemy ... and he is aligned with China now, vis-a-vis HK ... you
know very well that j6p already refers to him as "that nerd that defected to
China".

~~~
sramsay
I agree. This is the weirdest part of this whole thing. Surely there are a
dozen countries less inclined to want to extradite Snowden to the U.S. for the
grounds stated.

Why not flee to a country that is a weak (but not too weak) ally of the U.S.,
thoroughly outraged by the PRISM program, and which doesn't have an
extradition treaty that could possibly be construed as permitting extradition
under the stated terms (as Hong Kong _arguably_ does with the U.S.).

I'm not try to defend Wolf. Just sayin' . . .

~~~
at-fates-hands
I actually thought the weirdest thing - how was a guy who was a high school
dropout get a gig at the NSA?

Even small businesses won't hire someone unless they have a four year degree.
I know its possible for developers to get a job based on being self taught. I
highly, highly, doubt a government agency like the NSA would hire someone with
such sketchy credentials.

My other real concern was brought up in the article. Once you're about to feel
the full brunt of the United States Government coming after you, it's usually
standard procedure to lawyer up. Considering this guy hasn't done so indicates
he's not scared of whatever bad guys are coming after him. Which means, either
he's really stupid, or he has no reason to be afraid.

~~~
GHFigs
_how was a guy who was a high school dropout get a gig at the NSA?_

He enlisted in the Army and got a security clearance, which is the credential
that's really crucial for CIA/NSA/contractor jobs. The Army is willing to
accept a GED, which you can get in an afternoon.

~~~
at-fates-hands
This is actually counter to what I've been told by several high ranking
friends I know in the military. I have a family member who is a full bird
Marine Colonel and he said they won't take GED candidates anymore. I also have
a good friend who's a Senior Master Sergeant in the Air Force and said the
same thing.

Here's an article from 2009:

[http://www.nodropouts.org/blog/bad-economy-bad-news-
dropouts...](http://www.nodropouts.org/blog/bad-economy-bad-news-dropouts-who-
hoped-join-army)

"Army recruiters now tell potential recruits that their chances of getting
into the service are not good if they don't have a high school diploma. And
even a GED won't cut it in most cases."

I did notice the "in most cases" language, so maybe he got in on a pass from
someone?

~~~
GHFigs
_I did notice the "in most cases" language, so maybe he got in on a pass from
someone?_

Yes, that's what I mean by "willing to accept". If a person's ASVAB scores are
high and they're not a total mess, they can get a waiver for many things. It
varies by service, of course; I'm not surprised that the Marines and Air Force
don't waiver GEDs.

------
hobs
Let's have more articles of pure speculation. I am interested in the topic of
the NSA spying program, but it feels like I am reading post after post of
articles that are just reinterpretations of facts that were already presented
and interpreted numerous times. People have already insinuated that Snowden is
working for the chinese/russians/whoever you care to name, and its an
interesting theory, but we need some evidence.

------
smutticus
On one hand she speculates that Snowden isn't a genuine whistleblower beacuse
he is too organized(a, b, c). Then she speculates that Snowden isn't a genuine
whistleblower because he is not organized.(f, h)

Which is it? Seriously, this article does more to decredit Namoi Wolf than
anything else. I had more respect for her prior to reading this piece.

I could continue to rip this article apart but I'm hungry and need to cook
dinner.

------
davidcuddeback
I think she has some interesting points, but they don't necessarily stand up
to scrutiny. Occam's Razor says that we should be skeptical of conspiracy
theories and require a lot more evidence than a celebrity's hunch.

On the issue of hiring a filmmaker, a little investigation suggests that
Greenwald might have had a prior connection with her. The filmmaker's name is
Laura Poitras [1]. There's a New York Times article covering her involvement
in making the video [2]. In April 2012, Greenwald wrote an article about the
U.S. detaining her at the border [3]. I think it's reasonable to believe that
Greenwald may have had a prior connection with her.

Also, as I mentioned in another comment [4], history shows that reformers
learn from their predecessors' successes and mistakes. The way he orchestrated
the release of the documents could be a symptom of his learning from previous
whistle-blowers.

It's unfortunate that the best part of her post was at the very end.
Regardless of the merits of the rest of her post, I think her last statement
is worth remembering: "But do consider that in Eastern Germany, for instance,
it was the fear of a machine of surveillance that people believed watched them
at all times — rather than the machine itself — that drove compliance and
passivity. From the standpoint of the police state and its interests — why
have a giant Big Brother apparatus spying on us at all times — unless we know
about it?"

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laura_Poitras](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laura_Poitras)

[2]
[http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/15/business/media/filmmaker-l...](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/15/business/media/filmmaker-
linked-to-leaks-has-her-own-stories-to-tell.html?hp&_r=1&)

[3]
[http://www.salon.com/2012/04/08/u_s_filmmaker_repeatedly_det...](http://www.salon.com/2012/04/08/u_s_filmmaker_repeatedly_detained_at_border/)

[4]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5885959](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5885959)

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
Some things about Snowden's story feel more like spy fiction than reality. I
have a feeling there is more to Snowden than mere IT guy for intelligence
agencies. But any theory of what else he could be that I can come up with,
goes off the rails into wackyland pretty quickly.

------
staunch
It's probably a good idea to question everything, but this analysis is so weak
it's laughable.

------
streptomycin
This would be better on /r/conspiracy than Hacker News.

~~~
_pmf_
> This would be better on /r/conspiracy than Hacker News.

Shallow reasoning ... check

No understanding of subject matter ... check

Usage of pseudo psychological nonsense instead of any hard evidence ... check

------
dguido
More here: "5 Ways NSA leaker Edward Snowden's story isn't holding up." Nearly
every statement in his video interview is vastly exaggerated.

[http://news.yahoo.com/5-ways-nsa-leaker-edward-snowdens-
stor...](http://news.yahoo.com/5-ways-nsa-leaker-edward-snowdens-story-
isnt-115500971.html)

~~~
MattyRad
I would advise against going to this link, or even posting the link. It is bad
form to give such poor articles any traffic or credibility, and posting the
link will up its ranking in search engines.

~~~
munin
citizen censorship is so ironic

~~~
jrockway
This comment brought to you by Duff Beer.

------
nsns
By why do all these pseudo-lefty celebs (Wolf, Maher, etc.) make it a point to
smear Snowden? They seem to be doing it of their own volition.

~~~
chipotle_coyote
There's two kinds of conspiracy theories, I think. There's the ones that
actually exist and end up getting exposed in a few years: the Pentagon Papers,
the Iran-Contra scandal, the trumping up of "Iraq has WMD," and (apparently)
now PRISM.

Then there are the theories like "9/11 was an inside job" and "JFK was killed
by the CIA," ones that would require an order of magnitude more people to do
things an order of magnitude more reprehensible and keep perfectly quiet for
many, many more years, yet make slip-ups that only amateur sleuths can find
(or at least dare to report on) -- all for claimed ends which are, to say the
least, dubious. There are common psychological threads to these theories (the
Illuminati run the world, but _we know the truth_ and that gives us some power
back), but the most fascinating thing about them is that you literally can't
disprove them: they're not making falsifiable claims. Scant or contradictory
evidence just shows how successful the conspirators have been; lack of
mainstream reporting just shows how the media is part of it.

The thing is (to get back to your actual musing), once you get into that
mindset, it's turtles all the way down. It's not really a left/right thing,
it's a "fringe" thing -- I suspect the more you feel that your voice is shut
out of the mainstream discussion, the more likely you are to suspect it's
because the Powers That Be don't want to hear your voice. You may be right,
but that doesn't necessarily mean it's because they can't face the holy light
of your truth. Even if she hasn't gone full Alex Jones, Naomi Wolf has often
seemed to me to be flirting with that kind of conspiracy mindset.

I can't speak to Maher (I can't find any comments he's made on Snowden), but
he seems to have a different set of biases, not as much conspiracy-based as a
kind of reflexive skepticism.

~~~
PavlovsCat
re:9/11, the official story is basically that building 7 collapsed because of
burning office furniture. You believe that? "once you get into that mindset,
it's turtles all the way down", huh? But sure, why even _bother_ to actually
investigate the catastrophy such huge changes are based on, when you can just
ship off the debris and constantly talk about living in a "post 9/11 world"...
those conspiracy theorists would ignore and and all investigations or
scientific facts anyway, for circular reasons°. _So let 's not have any of
those, it will help._ Instead let's have presidents pose on coffins wrapped in
flags, shuffling our feet in moments of silence as decent citizens would.

° They're on the fringe for reasons that don't interest, not really, because
they're on the fringe. Where they are because that's where they are. Not that
you or anyone knows this, but this topic "fascinates" you so much that you
"suspect" it. That's either hardcore trolling or awkward irony, you decide.

------
vivin
There is way too much speculation in this article. Actually, that's all there
is.

------
surrealize
Wolf thinks Snowden is fake because he talks about all the bad things that
might happen to him as a result of his leaking. She thinks that he's drawing
attention to those bad things on purpose, to scare other potential
whistleblowers.

But _Greenwald_ was the one drawing attention to that stuff, by asking Snowden
what he expected the US government to do to him. Snowden wasn't volunteering
that on his own; it was Greenwald trying to play up the human-interest angle.

------
ferdo
"In The End of America: Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot, Wolf takes a
historical look at the rise of fascism, outlining 10 steps necessary for a
fascist group (or government) to destroy the democratic character of a nation-
state and subvert the social/political liberty previously exercised by its
citizens:

1\. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy 2\. Create secret prisons
where torture takes place 3\. Develop a thug caste or paramilitary force not
answerable to citizens 4\. Set up an internal surveillance system 5\. Harass
citizens' groups 6\. Engage in arbitrary detention and release 7\. Target key
individuals 8\. Control the press 9\. Treat all political dissidents as
traitors 10\. Suspend the rule of law

The book details how this pattern was implemented in Nazi Germany, Fascist
Italy, and elsewhere, and analyzes its emergence and application of all the 10
steps in American political affairs since the September 11 attacks."

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naomi_Wolf#The_End_of_America](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naomi_Wolf#The_End_of_America)

------
cickpass_broken
> He is not struggling for words, or thinking hard, as even bright, articulate
> whistleblowers under stress will do. Rather he appears to be transmitting
> whole paragraphs smoothly, without stumbling.

When I watched this, the assumption I made was that he was carefully prepared
to take on this massive endeavour – better to be prepared for the consequences
and media than to foil the effort.

But, really, we have no fucking idea.

------
jabbernotty
I was hoping to find a well-reasoned story here, but it isn't there. I don't
find her reasoning to be logical, and she keeps calling things strange or
abnormal based on either a single anecdote, or none at all.

------
e3pi
crypto adj. Secret; covert. gon suff. A figure having a specified kind or
number of angles.

Governments, Corporations and Media are out of control.

These prominent components of our society are increasingly driven by
hypocrisy, corruption and greed. They have never been more powerful than they
are today, and their ability to shape the outcome of events goes mostly
unnoticed by the public at large.

The Cryptogon refers to the hidden structure underlying and interconnecting
the political, economic and perception management systems currently in
operation on this planet. When John Ralston Saul states that, “In reality, we
are today in the midst of a theology of pure power—power born of structure,
not of dynasty or arms,” the “structure” he is referring to is what I am
calling the Cryptogon.

[http://www.cryptogon.com/?page_id=2](http://www.cryptogon.com/?page_id=2)

------
lazyjones
She has a few good and a few weak points there. Especially the last point is
important and some peculiar reactions to this scandal can be better explained
with it - for example, the odd way the Congress seems to show no interest in
the mass-surveillance, as if they knew that it's a fabricated story to trigger
the panopticon effect.

On the other hand, I wonder what the NSA is doing in all those huge buildings,
if not spying on all Americans and the rest of the world. Perhaps they're
empty? Not very likely, but it would make a great story.

------
michaelfeathers
Posted on Facebook. :) Waiting for the article that says that Naomi Wolf may
not be who she purports to be.

~~~
robotresearcher
Facebook post since no respectable editor would print such silly stuff.

~~~
ferdo
Bad metric. I recall respectable editors pumping the "WMDs IN IRAQ!" story
quite frequently once upon a time, for instance.

~~~
omonra
Ugh.

------
mark_l_watson
+1 I at least give her credit for thinking outside of the box. It is OK to
speculate and look at things from a different perspective, even if you might
be wrong.

------
CognitiveLens
This is an interesting take on the situation, although it's one that I would
normally dismiss as tin-foil hat thinking. Given the source and clear
reluctance in making these assertions, however, it's definitely a perspective
worth including in the discussion.

If Wolf is right, it certainly seems like a risky move on the part of the NSA
(or related organization) - one that could easily backfire, since for the most
part it's just fomenting more negative sentiment toward government in general.
The shock of these "revelations" will subside and the country will likely go
back to business as usual (as it does after most shocking revelations"), but
with even less trust in its leadership.

As for discouraging whistleblowing, they have so far missed the mark - for the
most part Snowden has come across as pretty difficult to hate, even for people
who disagree with his actions.

------
danbmil99
I think it is more likely that he has the backing of a loose confederation of
anonymous civil disobedients, young & media savvy, and they took some time to
develop the story in a way they thought would achieve maximum impact.

I admit the expressive neo-feminist pole dancing gf seems a bit gratuitous.

------
blendergasket
To me this is one of those weird things. Basically all of this is an act of
faith on our part. We either believe he's legit or we don't. We can't know
what kind of weird psy-ops the government is pulling on us. I choose to
believe that this is real but I can't know for sure and for all I know I could
be part of some bigger, darker plot orchestrated by who knows who.

Not to get all metaphysical but the more that's hidden from us the less we're
able to know what in the world is ever going on. It's weird being a human.

------
return0
The only thing that can undermine his credibility is if the US government
comes up with indisputable proof that NONE of what he said was true. Her
arguments are a complete red herring

------
Myrmornis
Greenwald has been in contact with the film maker Poitras for over 1 year.
Presumably it was Greenwald not Snowden who introduced her. But surely this
Wolf person knows that, if she's a media type who hangs out with Assange's
entourage.

[http://www.salon.com/2012/04/08/u_s_filmmaker_repeatedly_det...](http://www.salon.com/2012/04/08/u_s_filmmaker_repeatedly_detained_at_border/)

------
gcb0
So what we claims is that he is a Goldstein in the making?

That would be interesting. Is there any studies on how those figures come into
being? I bet there are a few real Goldstein in history. Do they start already
protraited as failures or at some point they have the popular opinion on their
side?

------
fbru02
People still listen to Naomi Wolf? I was really wanting to like the "Shock
Doctrine" but being from South America, I found the history she portrayed of
SA to be totally inaccurate.

~~~
paulsmith
That's Naomi Klein.

------
subsystem
That people are focusing on the wrong things are nicely illustrated by people
claiming him to be an amateur and too professional at the same time.

------
rollo_tommasi
This is how James Jesus Angleton drove himself insane.

------
gnu8
How much does the NSA pay for this?

------
plg
tl;dr : if you don't like the message (or don't like the idea of believing the
message to be true), then you attack the messenger

------
brucefancher
My creeping concern is that Naomi Wolf is one missed dose of her medication
from becoming a bag lady.

------
darkpicnic
(yawn)

