
Ask HN: Is it possible to move to another country when over 40? - throwawayT
I&#x27;ve worked in the US for a while now, there doesn&#x27;t seem to be any chance of me getting a green card or citizenship anytime soon. While I love the country, I am wary of the current political climate and also the heavy restrictions on my visa.<p>I would like to move to a different country, but I am 41 now. Is it realistically possible to move to another country? If yes, which ones would you recommend? I have less than 2 years to get ready, before my current work permit runs out.<p>To clarify : I am not super smart like many of the HN folks here and I don&#x27;t have any money to invest. I am just a normal dev, who likes to build interesting and useful things and I am a pretty good worker.<p>Any advice?
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arethuza
I'm a strong supporter of the Scottish Government line on immigration:

 _Migration is crucial to the development of Scotland as an inclusive, fair,
prosperous, innovative country ready and willing to embrace the future. It is
essential to our economic prospects and our demographic sustainability that
Scotland continues to attract the level and nature of migration it needs.
Migration is not just about economic prosperity. It has helped to shape
Scotland – just as people born in Scotland have helped to shape nations across
the world so people migrating to Scotland have shaped and changed our own
country. People from overseas who come to Scotland to live, to study or work,
or to raise their families are our friends and neighbours. They strengthen our
society and we welcome them._

I can, of course, also recommend Edinburgh - surely one of the worlds great
wee cities: "But Edinburgh is a mad god's dream"

[https://www.buzzfeed.com/hilarywardle/edinburgh-is-the-
best](https://www.buzzfeed.com/hilarywardle/edinburgh-is-the-best)

The rest of Scotland is mostly pretty nice as well ;-)

~~~
alistairSH
That's a nice statement, and I agree that Scotland is a lovely country, but is
immigration feasible for a random white collar person? What's actually
required to gain residency (and is it permanent)? Is there a path to
citizenship? And with Brexit looming, will this all change in a few years?

~~~
jermaustin1
> Is immigration feasible for a random white collar person?

Probably. It requires finding a job, or having a lot of money, though, as you
aren't immigrating to Scotland, but to the UK. UK's visa and immigration
website [1] is actually very straight forward and easy to navigate for anyone
wanting more info.

> What's actually required to gain residency (and is it permanent)?

There are a few paths to permanent residency (not necessarily citizenship).
The simplest is via by getting a job that sponsors your visa and staying at it
for 5 years, and then applying for right to remain. You will not be a citizen,
but you will have the right to stay regardless of your job, and may be
eligible for public funds.

The next best option is the Entrepreneur Visas. Option 1: £200k of your own
money (can be from friends, family investors, etc) ready to invest in starting
a company, or Option 2: £50k of money from registered UK VC fund or a UK
government seed grant (not sure how easy this is).

Both options give you a 3 year visa extendable to 6 years 4 months, and at 5
years, you are eligible for the right to remain in the UK.

> Is there a path to citizenship?

There definitely is, but it is complicated, and maybe unnecessary. There is a
kid on YouTube [2] who talks more about this.

> And with Brexit looming, will this all change in a few years?

I'm not a soothsayer, but I'd wager most of my weekly allowance (~$70) on yes.

1: [https://www.gov.uk/browse/visas-
immigration](https://www.gov.uk/browse/visas-immigration)

2:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvzTOmEPYyE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvzTOmEPYyE)

~~~
alistairSH
Thanks, I'm a Scottish ex-pat, but haven't lived there since I was a wee lad.
I never looked into immigration requirements because I can alway renew my
British passport (US citizen since college), or get an Irish one via my
mother's side of the family.

------
cletus
So there are a lot of factors that go into this. First, let's consider earning
potential:

\- What is your earning potential in the US?

\- What is your earning potential in [other country]?

\- How many years on your current immigration status can you remain in the US?

Context: I'm Australian. I now live and work in the US because the earning
potential for a software engineer here is 5x what it is in Australia. As long
as you're spending less than you earn you can pack many years of saving into
the US in a short period of time so it's worth considering a longer stay even
if it is still temporary.

Citizenship:

\- What is your current country or countries of citizenship?

\- Is your plan to become a citizen of [other country]?

\- Do you want to retain your existing citizenship(s)?

\- What is your time frame for wanting to gain citizenship?

Some examples:

\- You can get Irish citizenship in 4-5 years (IIRC) and can retain your
existing citizenship

\- Austrian, German and Dutch citizenship (again, IIRC) require you to
renounce your existing citizenship to become a citizenship (there are
exceptions).

\- If your goal is to get EU citizenship because that comes with a lot of
benefits like being able to live and work in 27 (or 26 after Brexit)
countries.

These are the options I would consider and the reasons why:

1\. Ireland. EU citizenship in a relatively short period of time. English-
speaking, developed economy and employment opportunities. Also, the country is
relatively welcoming to immigration.

2\. Canada. This can effectively prolong your stay in the US forever. After
gaining Canadian citizenship you can essentially work forever in the US on TN
visas.

3\. Australia. Relatively easy to get immigration status as a software
engineer with a college degree who speaks, reads and writes English (there's a
point system). I believe the time frames are relatively short and this too
will open up the ability to work in the US via the E3 visa.

There are other factors that come into play too like family situations, long
term plans, where you plan to retire, etc.

~~~
joelbluminator
P.S I would add the U.K to the list, especially London. Might feel a bit less
"claustrophobic" than Ireland.

~~~
cletus
I deliberately left off the UK for several reasons:

1\. In the last decade, the politics have definitely shifted to being more
anti-immigration than they used to be. For example, it takes at least 6 years
to qualify for UK citizenship. This is 5 years to qualify to ILR (Indefinite
Leave to Remain) and a year of ILR to qualify for citizenship. This used to be
4 years to get ILR (prior to ~2006?).

2\. Adding of extra requirements like Living in the UK test and a nebulous
"good character" test.

3\. Uncertainty over Brexit. It's far from clear what UK citizenship will get
you post-Brexit, if Brexit even happens. Given the rise of the Brexit party
and the Tories tearing themselves apart with May resigning and a hard
Brexiteer like Boris Johnson likely to be the next PM, a hard Brexit has
become much more likely. This may also negatively impact the UK economy.

------
diveanon
Definitely doable, where you are originally from plays a significant role, but
many countries will give you a generous visa on entry just for having an
American stamp in your passport.

I currently live in Malaysia, they give a 90 day visa on entry and are pretty
lenient on reentry as long as you respect the terms of your visa. It's an
English speaking country that is developing very quickly but still has a low
cost of living. It is at least worth a visit.

The more important question is how you plan on supporting yourself in your new
home.

~~~
joelbluminator
Can confirm, he can get a stay and work permit in the Netherlands rather
easily as there's a business treaty between the 2 countries (he will need to
be registered as some kind of freelancer though, but that's still pretty
sweet). But he probably won't even need it, experience from the U.S is valued,
he will likely find an employer to sponsor him.

------
unicornfinder
The fact that you're in the US already on a working visa suggests that you're
perhaps far more valuable than you think. I think you'll do just fine.

~~~
throwawayT
Not really. I checked with my employer, and they told me it is at least a 10
year wait for GC, for my case. I'd like to start something of my own, but
apparently it is not possible and I don't feel like waiting for a decade (for
something that is not guaranteed anyway).

I don't think I am special or valuable. I guess I was lucky to come to U.S,
but not lucky enough to stay here all my life.

~~~
gniv
> I don't think I am special or valuable.

A lot of people in tech feel like that. It's not true. Don't let the impostor
syndrome affect your decisions.

> I guess I was lucky to come to U.S, but not lucky enough to stay here all my
> life.

If you were not Indian, you would not have this problem.

This is a great time to settle in another country. Tech is booming everywhere,
and this is reflected in the immigration policies of a lot of countries.

------
pcl
I moved to Norway a little over a year ago, and was 41 at the time. It was
pretty straightforward for me, as my employer has an office here in Oslo, so
it was just an internal transfer, and they took care of all the paperwork. I'm
not all that familiar with the Norwegian immigration restrictions, either
generally or for Indian nationals, but it definitely happens. We hire
immigrants fairly often, although mostly from EU / EEC countries (Norway is
not in the EU, but it participates in many of the economic agreements, so
things are probably smoother for EU residents / citizens).

I'm definitely slower at learning the language than I was the last time that I
moved abroad, 25 years ago. On the other hand, Norwegians are generally pretty
fluent in English, and our office defaults to English, as we are perhaps
10-15% non-Norwegian. But on the other hand, I probably would be learning
faster if that were not the case...

Regarding employment within the US: if you have an H-1B visa, bear in mind
that it's fairly straightforward to change to a different job with one. I've
done a transfer for a new hire at a startup once, and know others who have
done so a number of times.

~~~
throwawayT
Your visa is tied to your employer, correct? Don't you find that annoying?

~~~
pcl
If I lose my job, I need to find a new one with a similar title within 6
months. And I can only receive a salary from one company at a time -- no paid
side gigs. So it's somewhat tied to my employment status, but more like a
generous H-1B and less like an L1.

------
Yetanfou
Of course it is. I moved from the Netherlands to Sweden at 37, not that far
from your age. Find a country which fits your needs and wants and start
exploring the possibilities. Make sure you're able to learn the language of
whatever country you plan to move to or you'll have a hard time
integrating/assimilating (depending on the country and your preferences), make
sure not to end up in an enclave of compatriots and don't undersell yourself.
There is plenty of work for developers in most 'western' countries so in that
respect you should be OK.

~~~
cblum
You moved within the EU. That’s far easier than it is for a non-EU citizen
(which I assume is OP’s case).

~~~
bberkgaut
It's fairly possible though for a non-EU citizens. I moved to Sweden from
outside EU when I was 36 with a family (got job as a developer). It took 5
years from work permit to Swedish pasport.

------
joelbluminator
Of course it's possible. You will probably find countries with way more
relaxed immigration processes, e.g Germany, Netherlands, Canada, Australia
etc. Is it advisable? I really can't tell without knowing you and your
situation. I moved to the Netherlands 2 years ago, am 35. Don't think age
makes such a big difference in this thing. Did you explore all possibilities
in the U.S? I would even consult a lawyer. You are already there, so it makes
sense for you to explore all your options before you decide to leave.

~~~
throwawayT
Could you please talk a bit more about your Holland immigration experience? I
will do my homework of course, but it would be good to hear from someone who
has done it.

Regarding US - yes, I did explore, it doesn't seem that promising. I still
have about 2 years left, so it is possible something might change, but I am
not optimistic

~~~
joelbluminator
Holland is quite easy to get into for skilled people. I don't know your field
but if you're in IT, finance or anything healthcare you should be fine. Your
salary will take a hit though, it's not the salaries you're used to from the
U.S

~~~
joelbluminator
That said, life might be way less stressful for you. It's just a different
world, quite impossible to determine how you would like it before you try it.
Weather is a bitch though, think Seattle or something like that. Work life
balance is amazing here and throughout most Europe.

~~~
throwawayT
I am okay with cold/wet weather, not a problem for me.

I've worked with Europeans before (French mostly) and am familiar with the
work life balance :) Kinda jealous of it :P

------
vonkale
Finland, but you have to have a job here first to get recidecy and after maybe
5 years of working and living here you can apply for citizenship:
-[https://migri.fi/en/working-in-finland](https://migri.fi/en/working-in-
finland) -[https://www.glassdoor.com/Job/helsinki-software-developer-
jo...](https://www.glassdoor.com/Job/helsinki-software-developer-jobs-
SRCH_IL.0,8_IC2440450_KO9,27.htm) -[http://www.te-
palvelut.fi/te/en/jobseekers/work_finland/inde...](http://www.te-
palvelut.fi/te/en/jobseekers/work_finland/index.html)
-[https://migri.fi/en/finnish-citizenship](https://migri.fi/en/finnish-
citizenship)

------
champagnepapi
Anything is possible Are you willing to make it happen? But move to a country
with good health-care system.

------
duiker101
Absolutely possible. Your age should not stop you. The only thing is how
rooted you are there now, but where there's a will, there's a way. Anyhow, if
you really would have to move because of Visa stuff, then it's better not to
wait till the last moment.

The main things to consider are possessions and relationships.

\- What will you do with your possessions? Move them or sell them? \- Do you
have family? Will you be moving alone?

As for where, this again, depends. Does your citizenship country offer you to
have a pool of countries you can choose from without too many problems (i.e.
are you from the EU?) What would be your requirements for moving to the
country of your dreams? Could you find someone to sponsor your Visa should you
need to?

~~~
throwawayT
I don't have family or possessions, so it is not an issue.

I am not from EU, and my nationality gives zero advantage, unfortunately -
that is why I posted the question in the first place :(

~~~
fb03
Can you at least hint us the region you are from? Do you think it'll hurt you
in your visa/emigration process?

When you say 'nationality gives zero advantage' I think you're from somewhere
that is regarded as 'worrisome' by some prejudice-filled cultures, like you're
from the middle east.

~~~
throwawayT
India. As far as I know, my passport doesn't give me any advantage

~~~
fb03
I'd say quite the opposite.

Lots of good tech workers coming from India, and if you already landed an US
job, I'd say your chances of landing it _anywhere_ else are pretty good.

As other people stated, having a american worker visa stamped on your passport
is gonna help you a lot along the way.

------
en4bz
[http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/crs-
tool.asp](http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/crs-tool.asp)

------
cameldrv
Germany has a fairly liberal immigration policy. If you have a college degree
that they recognize and earn a reasonable salary you can get a Blue Card which
gets you permanent residency after 21 months and citizenship after 6 years if
you learn some German. Salaries are significantly less than in the U.S., but
the differential has been decreasing in recent years.

------
rconti
Argentina.

I'm not aware of all of the details, but I visited last fall. They basically
allow anyone to immigrate. It's technically illegal to overstay your visa, but
it's ILLEGAL to discriminate against people for doing so, and it's very easy
to get permanent residency even if you do so.

Look into it.

------
deagle50
My parents did it twice in their 40s. I had to help them learn the language
and assimilate but it's doable. That said, moving to the US was much easier
than to another European country.

------
MadWombat
For what its worth, when my family moved from Russia to US both my parents
were 43. I was 19, my brother was 11 and we had a grandmother in her 70s with
us. So yes, it is possible.

------
StreamBright
Yes it is possible. Check out Ireland, it has many companies who would hire
you. Ageism is not a problem in Europe as much as it is in the US. Germany
also a great option.

------
bwb
Totally!

Start applying and researching, there are a number of ways to do it. Have you
looked at positions and do you know where you would like to go?

~~~
throwawayT
I don't have too much preference on where I want to go, I do know where I
don't want to go - I don't want to go to countries where my visa is tied to an
employer, I also don't want to go to overly religious places (like UAE etc). I
prefer English speaking countries, but that is not a deal breaker.

~~~
joelbluminator
Sorry for pestering you about Holland but it's the only example I know first
hand. In Holland your visa is tied to the employer (though its way easier to
switch employers, unlike moving visas in the U.S which for some reason is a
nasty process). After 5 years in the country you are eligible to take the
citizenship tests (which consist of language test of about B level as far as I
know and not too hard general knowledge about Netherlands). This is definitely
more relaxed then the U.S , no ?

~~~
throwawayT
Yes, it is WAY more relaxed from the way you are describing. Is there any way
to contact you, if that is okay with you?

~~~
bwb
Ya go for it, there are a ton of places you can start the process and I think
you will find some parts of Europe have really improved the process (gathered
from friends who have done it in Germany and the Netherlands).

------
RappingBoomer
one of my co-workers (a patent agent) moved from venezuela to america when he
was 35 years old and then moved to australia from america when he was about
40...he is now a lawyer, and he never went to law school!

------
diminish
Why not go "remote" work and live wherever(possible) you want?

------
throwmex
You said you have 10 year wait for green card. So you must be either from
India or China.

Canada's express entry is the best option for you if you can sacrifice a pay
cut. All other countries are turning anti immigrant nowadays. So tread
carefully in case of other countries.

IMO, money is not all that important when compared with the high levels of
stress, anxiety and uncertainty about the future in US when you are on H1B.

I went that route (express entry) and never looked back and is doing well and
settled in Canada without any regrets. The tech scene is getting better in
Canada.

