
How Britain’s First Mission to China Went Wrong - lermontov
https://chinachannel.org/2018/05/18/macartney/
======
gerdesj
When I got here I saw the girzel thread below, shuddered and then read the
article. It is actually well worth reading. It gives a real flavour of going
into the great unknown from the perspective of one side, with some pretty
decent insights from the other side. I think.

“Grand Choulaa” - this looks to me like the locals taking the piss.

 _Initially Macartney did not realize that he was supposed to prostrate
himself before the emperor. Nor, when it was explained to him, was he willing
to do so. Despite his great admiration for the prosperity and civilization of
the Qing Empire, he viewed Qianlong as an equal to the king of England_

Macartney would never have really considered Quianlong as equal to the King of
Britain (England and Scotland became Britain a little earlier). I am also sure
that Quianlong's people would have had exactly the same notion in reverse for
exactly the same reason.

~~~
coldtea
> _Macartney would never have really considered Quianlong as equal to the King
> of Britain (England and Scotland became Britain a little earlier). I am also
> sure that Quianlong 's people would have had exactly the same notion in
> reverse for exactly the same reason._

Only one side would be justified, being an ancient civilization (as opposed to
a recent-ish tribe that entered written history only after the Roman
conquest), and the biggest economy of the world for many millennia...

~~~
Balero
Neither side would be justified making someone prostrate themselves in front
of anyone.

Heads of states should be treat of equals, no matter if one country has been
around for a couple of thousands of years, or only a bit over one thousand.
Also whether it is a stagnant declining empire being left in the dust by other
countries, or one of those countries leaving everyone else in the dust, sound
also not matter.

~~~
coldtea
> _Heads of states should be treat of equals, no matter if one country has
> been around for a couple of thousands of years, or only a bit over one
> thousand._

Well, tell that to the British first...

~~~
noir_lord
Our colonial history to paraphrase Orwell was "all countries are created
equal, it's just some are more equal than others".

During the age of empires British foreign policy was swaggering arrogance
backed up by gun boat diplomacy.

It's weird been British in 2018, we are now a small damp mostly irrelevant
island in the North Atlantic.

~~~
gerdesj
"It's weird been British in 2018, we are now a small damp mostly irrelevant
island in the North Atlantic."

It's always been a bit weird being British - get used to it! As to
irrelevance, you might like to reflect on the fact that around two billion
people across the world watched a recent marriage in this parish.

Yes it is a bit damp here but on the bright side the weather rarely tries to
kill you, nor does the land and nor does the flora and fauna. The nearest
thing to a volcano is Castle Rock in Edinburgh OK - Dartmoor int al was formed
from a pluton but that was some time ago as well. Our earthquakes are on the
sad end of the log base seismic scale. The last tsunami (controversial but
there was a major flood) might have been near Bristol and S Wales 100s of
years ago. We have precisely one poisonous snake - the adder and they are very
rare and keep well away and probably wont even kill you anyway (but it will
smart a lot). We have a few poisonous plants but again you would have to be
pretty stupid. Funnily enough I had to warn a Floridian about our stinging
nettles - they laughed. They stopped laughing after brushing past a patch on a
run.

Weird: yep. Irrelevent: no more than anyone else. Damp: I prefer "moist".

------
juhanima
While this article puts a lot of weight in the formal displays of submission,
the denial of the English ambassador in following them and the irritation that
caused, I cannot help thinking there could have been other reasons for the
Chinese to be reserved.

Considering the track record of the East India Company in conquering Bengali
piece-by-piece during the decades just before this mission, which the Chinese
must have been aware of, I think it's totally understandable they were wary.
Which must have been the subtext in them telling that no thanks, we do not
want your products and really don't want to give you a permanent foothold on
the Chinese soil.

The fact that the Brits kept on proceeding nevertheless, turning a large
number of Chinese citizens into opium addicts while at it, kind of justifies
this stance. Maybe the only mistake the Chinese made was not to start
improving their military might at the earliest signs of warning, while they
still had time.

------
ilamont
_Furthermore, the embassies that came from tributary states like Vietnam and
Korea did not come to impress the throne; they came to seek the emperor’s
approval, which gave them political power back home._

Jesuit missions to China some two centuries earlier wowed Ming officials with
technological wonders, high-quality illustrated works, and mathematical and
mnemonic tricks. The British may have attempted to follow a similar model to
impress the Qing court, not realizing (as noted in TFA) that representatives
from other states were expected to behave in a different manner.

A great read on the early Jesuit missions to China (as well as insights into
the late stages of the Ming Dynasty) is Ross Terrill's _The Memory Palace of
Matteo Ricci_

~~~
twblalock
I think you meant to credit Jonathan Spence for _The Memory Palace of Matteo
Ricci_. It is indeed very good.

~~~
ilamont
Yes, you are right. Thanks for the correction.

------
HumanDrivenDev
_Furthermore, the embassies that came from tributary states like Vietnam and
Korea did not come to impress the throne; they came to seek the emperor’s
approval, which gave them political power back home. To demonstrate their
government’s legitimacy in the eyes of the powerful Qing emperor was (at least
in China’s eyes) to argue for their own sovereign’s right to rule in his own
country. And to gain this approval, they paid tribute. They readily performed
the so-called kowtow before the emperor in the manner of his own ministers—a
prescribed ritual of nine kneeling bows to the ground (three sets of three) to
humble themselves in his presence. And it made perfect sense to do so, because
in their recognizing the supremacy of the emperor of China, the eminent power
in Asia, he would recognize their supremacy within their own, smaller
countries._

...

 _“When foreigners who come seeking audience with me are sincere and
submissive, then I always treat them with kindness,” Qianlong wrote. “But if
they come in arrogance, they get nothing.”_

The more I get to know China and the Chinese, the more I realize that these
are still the lenses they see the world through.

~~~
coldtea
> _The more I get to know China and the Chinese, the more I realize that these
> are still the lenses they see the world through._

So, just like major Western powers see other western countries?

(Because for non-western countries, major western powers just see them just as
areas to colonize, plunder, and steal from).

~~~
HumanDrivenDev
This was the laziest attempt at whataboutism I have seen all year. It didn't
even make any sense. Step your game up.

~~~
coldtea
I find accusations of "whataboutism" even lazier. They're just thought-
stoppers.

"Whatabout" is about putting things in perspective.

Accusations of whataboutism is about putting on blinders -- and examining only
one thing at a time (the other side instead of yours usually), outside of any
context.

In other works, avoiding "whataboutism" is the worst way to go about
understanding anything.

Which makes sense, of course, as "accusations of whataboutism" were invented
as a Cold War tactic, to dismiss any attempt of the "commies" to criticize
back.

~~~
HumanDrivenDev
Yes I would imagine certain people would have used the exact same tactic in
the cold war when millions of people lived under communism and all the
hardships it caused. Now those same people are likely China-defenders.

Whataboutism is just lazy. For example I could criticise a republican
politician without it being an endorsement of a democratic one. Stick to the
topic at hand - don't bring up a distraction.

------
hangonhn
Extra Credit History did a really great animated history lesson on this:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgQahGsYokU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgQahGsYokU)

~~~
ksec
Wondering Summary and Animated. And it is not only for history as well. Thanks
for the link.

------
tabtab
If they only had a copy of "How to Win Friends and Influence Others."

~~~
Nomentatus
I may have missed the prostration section. Who knows, maybe I coulda saved my
first marriage if I'd read that section more closely?

~~~
tabtab
That's just a specific case of "kissing up", which WFAIO more or less
promotes. It encourages one to gain a "genuine interest" in the person you
want influence over, but that's tricky to force. WFAIO lacks a "meta" side
that helps one motivate oneself to do the difficult/tedious steps. It's kind
of like a diet book that tells you to exercise more and eat more vegetables
and whole grains. Good advice, but the motivation for that is the hard part,
which it may not cover.

~~~
Nomentatus
Good analysis. (Meditation was my way to get more interested in others, and
maybe more than that.) There is a difference between the WFAIO today and the
original (which was more kissy-up) as I remember.

In a way it's sorta a book about how narcissists can please other narcissists
(without ever getting to maybe benefiting others rather than just pleasing
them) - but I must admit that narcissistic-on-narcissistic is the case that is
most likely to go wrong.

~~~
tabtab
I think most of us are narcissists, but just don't realize it. Evolution made
us selfish and egotistical, and hid that fact from ourselves. Objectivity
regarding self is probably not the optimum survival strategy.

------
Nomentatus
I think the Chinese were the real losers:

"In the early 1820s, the British East India Company began large-scale
production of tea in Assam, India, of a tea variety traditionally brewed by
the Singpho people.[5]"

------
jVinc
What a delightful read. Thank you for sharing it.

------
girzel
Two of history's most arrogant and sanctimonious cultures, meeting together
for the first time. What could possibly go wrong?

~~~
cup
Can Chinese isolationism really be compared to repugnant UK imperialism?

~~~
girzel
In terms of arrogance and sanctimoniousness, yes.

Ask the Vietnamese, Tibetans, Koreans, Uighurs and Burmese about Chinese
"isolationism".

Britain: I now control you. [My boats can reach you.]

China: You are now me. [You were on my border, now you're inside my border.]

The trappings of colonialism are remarkably similar.

~~~
mistermann
If more people had basic knowledge of unbiased history, I think there'd be
much less vitriol and silly uninformed opinion based (mistaken as fact-based)
disagreements on forums.

~~~
mistermann
Judging by downvotes, in the spirit of lifelong learning would it then be
prudent to conclude that more people having a basic knowledge of history would
be a _bad_ thing? Or that it _wouldn 't_ decrease opinionated arguing on
forums?

