
Brazil sets new record for homicides - kimsk112
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/a-devastating-scenario-brazil-sets-new-record-for-homicides-at-63880-deaths/ar-BBLIXQc?OCID=ansmsnnews11
======
rvr_
Brazilian here. Our criminality numbers are _probably_ higher than the
official numbers. The country is huge and diverse, but even the most pacific
states and cities are in a bad shape if compared to almost any other country.
More than 70% of the deaths are related to gang conflicts.

Drugs are not the only problem. We also have a lot of cargo/truck stealing,
street-level robbery, an enormous black market of stolen mobile phones, etc.

We have some affluent startup hubs, there are innovation in e-commerce,
payments, banking, HR and many more, but our tech elite is complete out-of-
sync with our major problem: violence. Maybe a fresh HN discussion can put
some light on the issue.

~~~
MrEfficiency
Whats this like for civilians that are not involved?

I hear about the crime in my country, but it seems unreal to me because in my
area you'd never know there were dozens of murders last weekend.

Does this affect your life?

~~~
goshx
You never know when you are going to be targeted, so you live in this constant
fear. Ask anyone who lives in Brazil what they do if they see two guys in a
motorcycle coming their way.

I've been robbed at gun point; I've woken up with someone inside my bedroom
stealing my laptop; I've been followed home; The bus from the public transport
system I used to take was stopped by criminals and set on fire; and so on.

It used to affect only the life of those living in the metropolitan areas, but
now it is spreading.

The main reason why I moved to the US was because I was living in such a state
that I was always tense. When I was robbed at gun point I almost got shot
because the guy thought I was too calm and suspected I was a cop.

Living in the US I realized how much that was affecting my daily life and how
life without worrying feels like.

That's how it affects your life.

~~~
bennicholes
Where did you live in Brazil? As an American I visit the interior of São Paulo
and Belo Horizonte often and have never experienced anything like this, nor
does it seem my Brazilian friends live in constant anxiety.

~~~
hugocbp
I'm from Belo Horizonte now living in Canada... Mostly moved because couldn't
take the anxiety of being in fear every single time I had to leave home.

Most people just play the numbers game. I, for example, have been robbed at
gunpoint, with a knife, with 4 teenagers threatening to beat me up when I was
14 and I was even "lightning kidnapped" (I don't even know the term in
English, but I was put in a car and bandits kept me for 8 hours and drove me
around waiting for the banking hours to reset the withdraw money from ATM to
take more form my account).

A lot of my friends, though, have never been robbed at all.

In general, we all know we are subject to that, but in the end it is mostly
just bad or good luck. Just being in the wrong place in the wrong time.

From all the people I know, those that have never been through this just live
life mostly normally. But once you've suffered that at least once, you can
never really fully rest again.

The homicides problem on that news is actually not that relevant in that
context because, as others have said, it is really concentrated in poor
neighborhoods or slums, where the State basically is nonexistent.

For example, in a lot of violent slums, criminals take and sell access to
pirated cable TV, energy and water, to the point where the official employees
can be made to fix stuff when they go there to try and cut signals. That is
how absent the state is in those places.

But when you see homicides numbers like that go up, probably the random crimes
to the whole population is going up as well.

~~~
malandrew
I had a friend in São Paulo that was mugged twice in the same day.

------
anoncoward111
I recently moved to a "bad neighborhood" and was very surprised to learn that
there was only one murder here last year, and it was between friends who had
stolen something from each other.

There were only around 13,000 murders last year in the US, a number that used
to be more like 26,000 during the crack epidemic 30 years ago. US population
has increased by 10s of millions since then, but murders continue to drop.

Additonally, 90% of murders occur between people who know each other in some
form, be it neighbors or classmates. Being robbed at gunpoint on the street or
in your apartment and then shot to death is quite rare, especially if you
arent in places like Memphis, Detroit, Chicago, NOLA, Cleveland, St Louis.

The USA certainly isn't perfect but I was thrilled to get a good price on a
great apartment in what everyone else calls "the hood". I will take my chances
that I won't be the unlucky 1 out of 11,000 people who is shot here every
year.

~~~
mfoy_
I mean, there's more to a "good" or "bad" neighbourhood than how many people
die each year. There's all the _other_ types of crime, for instance...

That, and if you want to raise a family, what kind of role models and
community surrounds your children is important.

~~~
everdev
On the flip side, it probably helps if good role models are willing to take
their chances in establishing their presence in an at risk community. Change
has to start somewhere.

~~~
mfoy_
Sure, that's called gentrification.

~~~
dddddaviddddd
Reduced crime is one aspect of gentrification, but generally it's a changing
demographic as people get priced out of a neighbourhood.

------
holografix
Another Brazilian here. I’ve lived in Australia for 15 years, Brisbane for 5
and Sydney for 10.

I reckon both cities are some of the cleanest safest cities in the world.

I grew up in Rio, left when I was 20. Still to this day I’ve got the street
reflexe. My partner, who’s Swedish, finds it mostly amusing, sometimes rude.

For example:

I won’t sit with my back to a door or a hallway, corridor etc.

I don’t tolerate people walking behind me closer than 5-10 meters, I’ll
literally turn around and pretend to tie my shoe laces or look at a shop
window.

And I think most of all, I can tell immediately if someone is sussing me out,
looking for a vulnerability, something of value I’m wearing, etc. I see the
eyes, I hear the body language.

All of this from someone who grew up in a middle-upper class neighbourhood in
Rio (Ipanema).

I’m wearing an Apple Watch and I’ve got an iPhone 8 Plus in my pocket atm. I
often leave the house with a $2000 dollar Sony a7iii câmera just because I
“might see something I want to photograph”. My friends in Rio simply wouldn’t
comprehend...

~~~
jeanlucas
One more Brazilian here to confirm the stereotypes.

I always think photographers are like heroes for the audacity to go out with
good cameras in hand all the time.

------
ransom1538
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Brazil](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Brazil)

"Thus, disarmament is effectively happening in Brazil,[12] as are massive gun
confiscations,[13] notwithstanding its refusal by Brazilian people (at the
referendum of 2005). Some argue that this will increase gun homicides. Other
research shows that there is a decrease in firearm deaths correlating with
disarmament.[14][15] However, 2012 marked the highest rate of gun deaths in 35
years for Brazil, 8 years after a ban on carrying handguns in public went in
to effect,[16] and 2016 saw the worst ever death toll from homicide in Brazil,
with 61,619 dead.[17] Only to rise again in 2017 to 63,880 a 3.7 per cent rise
from 2016. [18] "

Doesn't seem like the gun laws are working out.

~~~
matheusmoreira
They aren't.

Acquiring a firearm legally is a ridiculously bureaucratic process where you
must submit to psychological evaluations by the military and "justify" your
"need" to own a gun. If you manage to get approved by that long process, your
reward is an extremely limited selection of revolvers chambered in weak
calibers that you can't carry with you outside your home or place of work. The
weapon must be registered in a military database and tied to your name and
those soldiers can suddenly decide to drop by and inspect your gear. There is
a limit to how much ammunition you can purchase per year, so the only way you
can practice with the guns is by making your own rounds. You can't even
transport your weapon from place to place without notifying them and acquiring
some kind of permit. Alternatively, you can become a gun collector who can own
everything but can't legally fire any of the weapons, not even for practice.

Criminals don't care about gun laws. They just purchase weapons from the black
market, no background check or psychological evaluations or anything. Burglars
used to consider the risks before breaking into a home, but now they're _sure_
they will be unopposed. Drug traffickers are much better armed than the police
force that ought to stop them and have become so powerful in their domains
they could be considered parallel states, with laws, judges and everything.
Ironically, they often stop smaller crimes like robbery from happening because
not having a safe environment for people to buy drugs in hurts their profits;
photos of graffiti messages warning criminals they'll be killed if they get
caught robbing people can be found on the internet. The entire disarmament
thing assumes the police will do their jobs and keep people safe, but the
police won't even enter these areas because they're outmanned and outgunned.
That's why the government felt the need to use the military in order to regain
control of Rio de Janeiro. They used _armored vehicles_ to fight against
people who are technically citizens of their own country.

Don't ever let the government take your guns away.

~~~
wishinghand
If the police are refusing to do their job, that sounds like a bigger problem.
Professionals trained in firearm usage and gang suppression would be far more
effective than a disparate group of individuals owning a non-revolving pistol
and shotgun. England doesn’t have this problem despite having very restrictive
laws.

~~~
matheusmoreira
It is a huge problem. I don't fully understand the causes myself but
corruption is likely to be part of it. People just don't have what is
necessary to do their jobs and this demoralizes them. They start neglecting
the problems ("I'm not gonna risk my life for this salary just to arrest some
robber who'll probably be released anyway because he's a child") or become
corrupt as well ("I'm gonna make some money on the side overlooking criminal
activity"). Instead of stopping crime, the authorities seem to develop a state
of equilibrium with it.

So it comes down to this: do you trust your government? I don't trust mine.
I'd rather they decentralized public security instead so that people can at
least try to do what they haven't been doing in decades.

------
dbelchamber
Eesh. If all of this is accurate, it is problematic indeed. I wonder how many
of these homicides would cease to occur if drugs were made legal in Brazil (I
wonder about this worldwide). I've never understood why it's difficult for
people to understand the awful incentive structures that making drugs illegal
puts into motion.

~~~
mavdi
Brazil, like most of South (and now perhaps north too?) America suffers from
macho populism. A lot of character politicians with tough messages, empty
promises and sadly the population just falls for it every time.

These stats, along with others, is the result of years of populism, corruption
and neglect.

~~~
ulzeraj
Let’s ignore the fact that the last president was a woman and that this is the
direct result of her party disastrous administration. Blame machismo. It
always works.

~~~
lostlogin
Your first point is a good one. However I don’t think you can blame one
administration with all this mess surely?

~~~
forinti
Crime reduction in 1992 (in the US) is attributed by some to Roe v Wade
(1972). It took 20 years. The young people who are dying now (guns deaths hit
the young and poor the worst) were born at the end of the 1990s and start of
2000s, which was a period of high unemployment and even famine (300 children
died of malnutrition per day in 2001).

~~~
lostlogin
There is a competing theory to Roe V Wade, lead poisoning. A HN regular is the
Mother Jones article, and it makes a compelling argument.

[https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2016/02/lead-
exposur...](https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2016/02/lead-exposure-
gasoline-crime-increase-children-health/)

------
superherointj
Brazillian here. Living in country of Rio. I avoid going to Rio (capital) as
much as possible. Tomorrow I'm visiting family there and the tension increases
a bit because of uncertainty. I have watched robberies live, car stealing. Two
of my neighbords were shot by a rifle in Rio when crossing "linha vermelha".
My wife has been kidnaped once. This year her brother had his car shot 3
times. (He does Uber) My brother was almost hit by a lost bullet recently in
Rio downtown, missed by 50cm. I could probably go on listing this sort of
things endlessly. People from Rio are used to this and consider it the way
life is. It is not like they like or accept violence but don't have the means
of doing much about it. Brazil is a puppet state. Not sovereign. The state is
dysfunctional. The violence problem can be tracked to state policies. But the
state has no will to solve any of it. Just mask it and keep going (nowhere
good for civilians). It is an actual goal of state to things to not work. That
is the goal, and standard policy. Like the last 5 times tried to contact
police for reporting ongoing (live) stealings all failed. Most times couldn't
even report. There is a queue of calls that take a long time. And when they
answer, they just tell you to mind your business. Now I even don't bother
reporting anything. They won't do a thing. They don't care. In fact, they are
just FOLLOWING ORDERS.

People are too powerless to influence the state in any meaningful way. At the
end of the day the law/state is at the side of criminals. I wish Brazil would
change ownership so policy could be changed.

------
forinti
Traffic deaths are nearly at the same level (nearly 50k per year) even though
statistics only count those who died on the spot. I fear the road more than
guns, because most shootings occur in certain regions (mainly poor
neighbourhoods) which I can avoid.

------
mavdi
While still shocking, life in Brazil isn't the kinda Aleppo like bloodshed
this article portrays. Majority of victims are young male gang members sucked
into the drug turf wars.

~~~
coliveira
Correct, and this happens because Brazil is one of the most disgustingly
unequal countries in the world. There was a small pause during the leftist
governments when there was a noted improvement in social support for the poor,
but the recent events have brought even that to an end. The current government
is not only corrupt but is completely anti-people. Their plan is to cut the
little existing social net, destroy public education, and put everyone who
complains under military surveillance.

~~~
slig
> Their plan is to cut the little existing social net, destroy public
> education, and put everyone who complains under military surveillance.

Can you give sources for that affirmations?

~~~
epx
He cannot because it is not true. Even the leftists (the true-blue ones) admit
that left leaning governments have dropped the ball big time regarding
security.

As other comments already clarified, 90% of the problem is drug-related, the
correct fix would be the decriminalization of them.

~~~
slig
I know. This is the second time in a couple of weeks that I seem blatant lies
about my country here on HN.

~~~
kikoreis
It's my country too, and I don't recognize any lies in what was linked. Can
you link to sources for your claim?

~~~
slig
I don't see any lies on what was linked as well, but they are not sources for
what he said.

------
0x4f3759df
Another crazy stat: 132 politicians in Mexico murdered since September.

~~~
coliveira
Politicians have also been murdered in Brazil. The most known case is
municipal representative Marielle from Rio.

------
ulzeraj
Fun fact: Brazil has very strict gun control laws.

~~~
yesforwhat
So does England. One has the ability to enforce them, the other doesn't. The
point you are implying, that gun laws do nothing, is ridiculous.

~~~
sebleon
a) It is a fun fact, and b) I think their point was gun laws do nothing
without enforcement

~~~
ulzeraj
If drug prohibition enforcement does not work why would people believe gun
enforcement does?

~~~
dragonwriter
Because drugs and guns aren't similar products.

------
woliveirajr
Among all the violence in Brazil, homicides happen mainly in drug-related
problems: fights over territory are the majority, "punishments" for unpaid
debts come second, and robbery (not exactly kill to steal afterwards, more
like "I will kill you just to be sure you won't come after me, nor will
identify me").

Guns are out of control in criminal hands, while population in general don't
even have one at home. So, given that the cost of ammo is low (in black
market), killing is used to gain territory or to send messages to drug users
with debt or to general population.

------
swfsql
I'm another brazilian here. The crime rate is not as bad as of Venezuela, and
>50% of all (ALL) brazilians desires to leave the country.

The problem is simple.

1- It's quite impossible to leave poverty due to state regulations.

2- People are killed by robbers/murderers, or jailed by officers if they try
to prepare/defend for themselves.

So both economics and justice are completely distorted towards inhumanity.
There's nowhere to go.

That's a sad reality, and it's not a coincidence that Brazil has the strongest
world-wide desire for libertarian philosophy, by students/youngsters.

[https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=%2Fm%2F0cpvcd](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=%2Fm%2F0cpvcd)

[https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=%2Fm%2F052h3](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=%2Fm%2F052h3)

[https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=%2Fm%2F01hfv2](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=%2Fm%2F01hfv2)

------
jlarocco
Is that website cutting off the right side of the article text for anybody
else?

I tried resizing the window, zooming in and out, and disabling my ad blocker,
but the page steadfastly refuses to show the right side of the text. I'm using
Chromium and Linux.

------
pmichaud
I'm a little surprised that other places with military conflicts (eg. middle
east) or paramilitary conflicts (eg. Mexico) aren't higher? Maybe those are
counted differently?

~~~
dddddaviddddd
_Within the broad range of violent deaths, the core element of intentional
homicide is the complete liability of the direct perpetrator, which thus
excludes killings directly related to war or conflicts, self-inflicted death
(suicide), killings due to legal interventions or justifiable killings (such
as self-defence), and those deaths caused when the perpetrator was reckless or
negligent but did not intend to take a human life (non-intentional homicide)._

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate)

------
jessaustin
TFA would feel a bit more complete if it included the phrase "per capita".

------
pmarreck
Is Brazil basically a failed state?

~~~
swfsql
no, it's a successful state (people are those who failed).

~~~
pmarreck
I'm not trying to call Brazil's surely beautiful people out, I'm referring to
this concept:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failed_state](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failed_state)

~~~
swfsql
I used another concept.. imagine people as slaves and state agents (mostly
politicians) as slave-owners. Does poor slaves implies slave-owners' failure?
Nope.

And this is reality in Brazil. Politicians are wealthy, they are paid well,
they create monopolies for corporations (and get benefits from it whereas
consumers pay the cost) and they may even be corrupt. Some may get caught,
sure, but are replaced by others. But nonetheless, the slaves keep hoping for
the "right slave owner".

Thus politicians, politics and the state are extremely successful.

In this perspective, a failing state would be one whose politicians are
getting less wealthy, lose intervention power and so on. Strong individuals,
weak politics is a failed state. But in this situation people are wealthy
(contrary to the concept shown on wikipedia).

Another (somehow related) type of failed state are those whose population
emigrates massively, therefore slave-owners have less slaves. Or when a
secession occurs, where power get less centralized.

------
jessaustin
Something that never seems to come up in discussions of violence rates in the
Americas is our history of colonial domination. The fraction of people who
survived the onslaught of Old-World diseases were not equipped to effectively
resist the influx of predatory Europeans. That was and is a very violent
process. It's not over.

~~~
sumedh
> Something that never seems to come up in discussions of violence rates in
> the Americas is our history of colonial domination.

because its not relevant to the topic being discussed.

~~~
jessaustin
You don't think that Brazil today is affected by the Brazil of 200, 400, 500
years ago? You don't think that colonial attitudes persist? You don't think
that it would be a different nation had not so many natives been killed or
enslaved? You don't think that violence is a self-perpetuating cycle?

How the hell does that work?

~~~
sumedh
Its very easy to blame others, its very difficult to accept failure.

Are going to blame colonialism for all the presidential corruption scandals as
well?

~~~
jessaustin
Blame? What is that? Are you making a moral argument? I'm talking about cause
and effect, and I mentioned one cause that exists in Brazil but not in e.g.
France.

~~~
sumedh
Blame - feel or declare that (someone or something) is responsible for a fault
or wrong, which is exactly what you are doing.

So colonialism is the cause for the recent presidential corruption scandals?

~~~
jessaustin
You are the only one talking about presidential corruption. Besides Brazil
certainly isn't leading the world on that measure.

~~~
sumedh
SO who are you going to blame for the president being corrupt. If the
President is corrupt what messages does it send to the ordinary people. Why
should they follow the law if the President does not?

