

As Surface Goes On Sale Today, Microsoft Seeks to Reinvent The Tablet - jonathansizz
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/10/as-surface-goes-on-sale-today-microsoft-seeks-to-reinvent-tablet/

======
Alcedes
This looks like Zune all over again. Let's go over some points. First the UI
has been around for a few years on phones and has yet to catch on at all.
Market share has actually shrunk even with positive reviews from the
technorati. Data point 2: I'm seeing lots of comments on how the pricing is
"worth it" because you get a full computing experience... err no, the RT model
is ARM based so it will only run native metro apps. The fact that geeks
reading tech sites get this wrong should be a huge warning sign for MS. Think
of how confused a normal customer will be when trying to figure out what runs
on what? Point 3: MS office Touch enabled as a throw in for free, great until
you actually try to use it. Instead of re-imagining from the ground up for a
touch interface (Apple Style), they decide to hack on a touch mode and call it
a day. All reviews have been deservedly scathing. The silver lining if your a
MS fan is this will be the end of Ballmer. I assume the reviews should be out
within a week, should be interesting.

~~~
lotso
Windows Phone not doing well in the market is not an indication of the success
of the UI. Most reviewers praise the UI.

~~~
silverbax88
Well, it certainly could be. There are reasons that exist as to why the phone
hasn't been successful, and that has to be considered as a possibility.

~~~
joenathan
Anyone with half a brain knows that that is not the reason. Microsoft came way
too late to market with a 1.0 version product while everyone else was 3 or 4
revisions deep.

edit: a few more thoughts

The mobile phone industry had become an echo chamber, then Apple came in and
made a clean break, dropped the cruft everyone else was clinging to and pushed
the envelope. Apple changed the mode and completely shook up the market,
Google was the quickest in responding while Microsoft was clearly caught
completely off guard and is finally putting its best foot forward, but they
are very late to the party.

~~~
silverbax88
That's some really revisionist history there, but don't be afraid to share
some actual data instead of hyperbole.

~~~
joenathan
Microsoft was busy with Windows Mobile 6.5(1) which after many years of
revisions was complicated to use and in dire need of a complete reboot.
Motorola was living high off the Razor (which I purchased at launch at $300)
creating a million different versions of it until they watered down the brand
name.

Apple even teamed up with Motorola to do an iPod phone(2), which I think
stands as the poster boy of what was wrong with the industry at the time, the
echo chamber I refer to, everyone was so caught up with refining the
innovations of the past that they ended up blind sighted by the original
iPhone and scrambling to catchup; Many say that Google was finally able to do
that with the Jelly Bean release of Android, the much more polished look of
the OS combined with Project Butter for an overall very refined experience. In
Microsoft's case it's clear Windows Phone 7 wasn't what it need to be
necessitating another reboot of the mobile OS, maybe the shared Windows
kernel, Direct X, native SDK and product integration Microsoft is promising
will be the push it needs.

The funny thing is I think Apple as of late is falling into the same trap the
mobile phone industry found itself in before the original iPhone. Most
everything out of Apple lately is iterative and not innovative; it's very
difficult if not impossible to keep an innovative streak going and not get
bogged down on endlessly refining the original innovative product.

From the wiki (1) "Ballmer also indicated that the company "screwed up with
Windows Mobile", he lamented that Windows Mobile 7 was not yet available and
that the Windows Mobile team needed to try to recoup losses."

(1)<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Mobile_6.5>

(2)[http://www.engadget.com/2005/07/03/say-hello-to-the-
motorola...](http://www.engadget.com/2005/07/03/say-hello-to-the-
motorola-e790-apple-itunes-phone/)

~~~
headShrinker
I agree with many of your points, but want to point out that Apple's goal was
not to introduce the iPhone and then continue to innovate it, it was to
perfect it; which they are very close too. Furthermore, Techies want
innovation, general consumers want design and function that works and looks
good, period. They don't give a crap that you can touch your phones together
and transfer a playlist, or "innovation" as some would call it. My prediction
is Apple's next innovation will not be in the phone or music industry and it
may not come for a while.

------
georgemcbay
The only Surface I'm interested in is the Pro version. Without access to the
wider world of Windows software, I'll just keep using my ASUS Transformer.
Based on the lack of a release date and likely significantly higher pricing
for the Pro I'll probably just end up buying someone else's hybrid Windows 8
solution (eg. ASUS seems like a good bet based on my positive experience with
the aforementioned Transformer).

I may be wrong due to my tech geek biases but I think leading out with the
"RT" model is a mistake. The only super-compelling thing Windows 8 tablets
bring to the table for me is the possibility of running "real" Windows
software when using it as a laptop.

~~~
Metrop0218
I think that is a big tech geek bias. It's really hard (impossible) to put
ourselves in the shoes of the non-nerd, but we should try. I don't think the
non-nerd will care as much as you do, or if at all. I think that leading with
the RT model was actually a great call, because it will jump start the market
of tablets that can only use modern apps and then in turn give a lot of
incentives for developers to make them. If they led with the x86 surface, then
the app market would have been a lot smaller come end of year.

~~~
monkeynotes
Non tech geeks are going to buy the iPad though, surely. They are about the
same price and the iPad is a far more elegant and simple solution. Chances are
that the non tech geek will also own an iPhone/iPod Touch and the ability to
share apps and music etc. is definitely going to appeal.

At the price MS has this I am finding it hard to see who it will appeal to
except tech geeks and maybe corporate.

~~~
Metrop0218
"They are about the same price and the iPad is a far more elegant and simple
solution." - Elaborate. You didn't give any substance at all and that's an
empty statement. How is it more elegant? It is an accessory. You can bet that
the Microsoft marketing blitz will pound on this. They will drive home the
point that you can write your term paper on your surface. I guarantee it.

The only good argument against the surface right now is pre-existing
ecosystems. People have apps/music/etc purchased on other ecosystems and that
makes it tougher to drive home adoption among these 'entrenched' customers.
But if the product is appealing enough, that can be overcome. The jury is
still out on whether people will drop their iPads in favor of Surfaces.

~~~
roc
Haven't we put the "it's an accessory" bit to bed yet? It's awfully tired.

Also, the second someone needs to use that keyboard's bizarre-o trackpad to
drive the software to write their term paper, you can bet the utility of
having "traditional" apps on your tablet is going to be more carefully
considered than simply assumed.

The argument against the surface remains that when you need a tablet, a 'full
desktop OS' is not a feature you care about. And when you need a 'full desktop
OS', the surface may not be a very good one.

So the comparison will, again (and as it almost always does) hinge on what
people need or want these things for and how good each product is at
performing those tasks in reality.

Also, pretending that all the iPad brings is ecosystem is just as silly as
flatly stating the iPad as more elegant.

~~~
Metrop0218
We, as a collective community of tech industry members, have put it to bed.
But that isn't at all true on the consumer side. For example: In one of my
classes today, we were talking about how we're going to be taking our exam
online. We come into class, bring our laptops, and write out essays and submit
them. The teacher explicitely mentioned not to bring a tablet, even going
further as to saying that doing that would be silly. A girl who usually brings
an iPad to class on a regular basis agreed with the professor and mentioned
that "yeah, it's better for consumption". That in itself, proves to me that it
has not been put to bed yet.

And on the ecosystem thing I agreed with someone else who posted below that I
meant more than that.

------
maxpert
Battery:

iPad 42.5-watt-hour clearly mentioning browsing time (its called confidence on
your quality).

Surface RT 31.5-watt-hour Pro 42-watt-hour.

WiFi+Cellular:

iPad Yep.

Surface WiFi only.

Weight:

iPad 1.44lbs to 1.46lbs.

Surface RT 1.5lbs and Pro 2.0lbs.

Applications:

iPad Rock solid platform unified.

Surface Choose between RT and Pro messed up ARM and x86.

For me I think Microsoft has done same mistake again, introduce "complexity"
and if you look closely they are actually selling you a "not a gorgeous
quality stuff" for same price as iPad. I don't see Microsoft dominating the
market! Just getting a market douche on stage that makes you hear sound of
click with no quality in product pisses me off!

So ya Microsoft is reinventing in fact "reimagining" how to create mess in
Tablet world!

~~~
rthomas6
Thank you for this completely level-headed and unbiased comparison of the two
products. You clearly outline all the relevant aspects of each product instead
of just cherry picking to make one product look better. I know I can trust
your comparison because you state only the facts and are careful to not play
favorites.

~~~
maxpert
LOL thanks for sarcasm but Yep believe it or not, Memory cards, and USB
support has not hurt sales of iPad before. I am actually pissed of at the
ecosystem split (ARM and x86), I had high hopes maybe so thats why I was
pissed off on Microsoft claiming to re-invent!

~~~
geon
> Memory cards, and USB support has not hurt sales of iPad before.

How could you possibly know?

------
rlu
You can:

* get it with a keyboard for the same price as an iPad of the same storage

* get it without a keyboard for $100 less than an iPad of the same storage.

Seems fair :D

~~~
hyperbovine
Except that Microsoft has zero brand recognition in this category. Why on
earth would anybody choose this over an iPad for the same $$? I half expected
MS to be dropping these things from helicopters.

~~~
anigbrowl
Because you want to run Windows software on it. Microsoft also had zero brand
recognition in the GUI market when they launched Windows.

~~~
vetinari
That would be OK, except that Windows RT does not run Windows software. It
runs only software from MS App Store, i.e. Metro apps plus preinstalled
Office. That's it.

iPad and Android tablets have much more software available.

~~~
baddox
Saying "that's it" right after mentioning that Office comes preinstalled is
being unfairly dismissive. That's a really big deal.

~~~
CodeCube
My brother in law, who is a foreman for a crew of painters on Disney property,
has been waiting for this, specifically for office. I've often suggested that
he could just collaborate on documents (and they do this often) through google
docs ... but office/windows is entrenched, and he'd love it if he had access
to office on a tablet.

------
ericdykstra
I see the Surface as a great replacement to netbooks. I'm not sure if I'll get
one yet, but a lightweight, small laptop that is not at all a pain to take
with me anywhere is still a useful thing.

I got a lot of use out of my 10" MSI netbook, and at 1.5lbs with a great
keyboard/cover system, this could fit in as a nice replacement for that,
without nearing the cost of a Macbook Air. The ability for it to double as a
tablet for light internet browsing makes gives it some added value, as well.

I think that a key market for this will be for people who could use a tablet
and a laptop, but can't justify purchasing both a decent laptop and a tablet.
Of course, as the price of a good Android tablet moves closer and closer to an
ultra-affordable $99 price point, this advantage may disappear pretty quickly.

It will be interesting to see how the market responds, and how much people
enjoy using the hardware. It's different enough that it has a real chance to
make a dent in the market.

------
stephengillie
Here is a killer feature on Surface: Host Mode aka USB-OTG

 _But it also has a USB port and a cover that doubles as a keyboard; it works
with a wide range of other devices, like printers and external hard drives;
and it will even charge up your phone._

Edit: I don't know tablets ;)

~~~
aviraldg
Android tablets (3.0+) also support USB host mode afaik.

~~~
cooldeal
How does that help if the tablet does not have a full USB port that is
powered? Fiddling around with another power adaptor and cable is pretty
annoying.

~~~
aviraldg
I don't know about you, but almost all Android tablets I've seen have one (or
two.) This (rather popular low-end tablet in India):
<http://www.hclmetablet.com/>, for example has one too. It's a regular USB
port and no adapters are required.

------
randallu
So they're going head-to-head with iPad on price and they have few third party
apps or games. Obviously this was a wonderful strategy for Palm, RIM, Android
(before 2012), Fusion Garage (ha!), HP's slate, etc.

Also, the T30 is seriously long in the tooth at this point. The A5, A6,
Qualcomm 8960, Exynos 4 all beat it on GPU perf, and most of them beat it on
CPU perf. $500 for a T30-based computer? No way!

------
WiseWeasel
As the first public release of Windows for ARM processors, Surface RT is
probably going to have rough edges for quite some time, not to mention limited
software support, so it makes sense that they're being conservative with the
pricing. If they dumped them on the market, they'd still get pummeled by poor
reviews, their margins would be nil, their partners would be irate, and they'd
have a much bigger support issue on their hands. The people they really need
to be buying these at launch are developers who want to bet on a future market
for Windows RT apps, at least until they've had a chance to fix some of the
bigger bugs.

------
firefoxman1
I haven't been this excited for a Microsoft product...perhaps ever. Then I saw
the price and thought "We've been down this road before (HP Touchpad). You
can't sell Apple competitors at Apple prices."

As soon as the Touchpad dropped to $99 they couldn't stay on shelves for even
the first day. So let's find a compromise where the company still makes money.
$299? It's just odd that the company who won the PC Wars by enabling
manufacturers to win on price seems to have forgotten the only one of the 4
P's that they could have had over Apple.

~~~
webwright
$499 is probably pretty aggressive- MSFT doesn't have the supply chain magic
or economy of scale that Apple has. I suspect they aren't making much/any
money at $499... But I think you're right that they need to buy market share
with a lower price-- they are too late to the game to get a foothold otherwise
unless the product is near magical.

~~~
jbigelow76
"MSFT doesn't have the supply chain magic or economy of scale that Apple has."

I keep seeing the supply chain thing mentioned a lot. Microsoft has been in
the hardware game for a long time, and the XBox has had been around long
enough and shipped enough volume that MS probably has people just as competent
at managing the logistics of consumer device delivery as Apple. Apple might be
just a smidge better at but it's like comparing Wal-Mart to Target, Wal-Mart
(Apple) maybe the #1 but Target (MS) is a logisitical behemoth in its own
right to the point where the supply chain alone does not decide the winner.

~~~
forgottenpaswrd
"I keep seeing the supply chain thing mentioned a lot"

Because it is very important, at the same price Apple could be getting 40%
profit and MS barely getting break even.

It does not matter how much Xbox they ship, but how many tablets they are
already shipping, and Apple is selling millions and it has been doing for
years.

this already happened with macbooks and ultrabooks, ultrabooks has been
loosing money at the same price ranges because they got late.

------
monkeyfacebag
> It was responsive and impressive and, well, weird. Keys fired well, but
> other aspects, like the track pad or pressing keyboard combinations, felt
> odd.

Due to (supposed) focus on productivity, Surface has piqued my interest, but
there's no way I'm going to order one without putting my hands on the touch
keyboard first. Microsoft has not done a good job showing me how it works or
convincing me that it is _better_ than the on-screen keyboard I'm currently
using (compare to Apple's iPhone keynote, etc.).

------
kgp7
I was rather hoping the keyboard would be included with the package. I think
Microsoft can ill afford to charge so much for an accessory that is pretty
much a USP for their tablets.

~~~
rlu
Eh, in a way it kind of does? What I mean is I think of it as "you can pay
less without" because if you get it WITH the keyboard then it matches the iPad
price. If you get it without, it undercuts iPad by $100.

I think that's fair.

~~~
voodoomagicman
I don't think it is fair to say it undercuts the price - the cheapest surface
matches the cheapest ipad 3 at ~$500, while apple still offers the ipad2 for
$400.

The surface does offer more storage at the $500 level, but the ipad has a
higher resolution screen.

------
femto113
I love my Microsoft keyboard, I use it with my MacBook Pro all day long at
work (I do NOT like the standalone Apple keyboards). If they came out with a
keyboard cover for the iPad I'd buy one, and I'm willing to bet it would be a
huge seller. As for the Surface tablet itself, I'll be blown away if it ever
makes it as high as the #2 tablet. Only their usual pigheadedness will keep
them from actually succeeding in "reinventing the tablet" by releasing one.

------
tharris0101
Hey, I'm an avid MBP, iPad, iPhone user and I love them, but I think this is
really going to be big for Microsoft. There are many, many people who are
completely immersed in a Microsoft world. These people use iOS and Android
devices because they are the only viable options. I foresee this being a huge
blow to Apple, which will (hopefully) wake them up a bit and focus back on
innovating a bit more again.

------
happycube
At that price, with a relatively low res screen... Dead On Arrival.

------
brudgers
> _"Microsoft instantly becomes the third major player in the tablet market, a
> market where it is taking a fundamentally different approach than its
> rivals, Apple and Google."_

I'd put Amazon in the group of Microsoft rivals...at this time, at least. I
could see Amazon moving to a Windows platform. A clear roadmap and development
partner would be consistent with Amazon's core business.

~~~
mtgx
Amazon clearly wants full control over their own OS. Why would they go with
Windows?

~~~
chollida1
> Microsoft clearly wants to be in the hardware business and to make money
> this way > Amazon clearly wants full control over their own OS.

You keep saying things are clear but provide absolutely no proof of this.

What if Amazon doesn't want full control over their own OS, but just wants a
good enough OS and hasn't found one yet?

What if Microsoft doesn't really want to be in the tablet hardware business
but just wants to give other OEM's a reference design?

Both are just as possible as what you propose.

------
kmfrk
I think this is going to be absolutely great college and high school students,
but I don't know how eager people will be to buy a Surface as a Christmas
present compared to a Summer purchase for school.

Time will tell, I guess. It's not like people knew what the hell they were
going to use an iPad for, when it was first announced.

------
vyrotek
64 GB with Black Touch Cover - $699.00

32 GB with Black Touch Cover - $599.00

32 GB without Black Touch Cover - $499.00

------
TheAmazingIdiot
I've not seen the major complaint yet in any of the HN articles.

Microsoft has traditionally made software, and rebranded things like mice and
small peripherals. They only 'recently' got into the xbox, but that was
different for it was a game system.

Now, with them being a computer dealer now, where does that leave Dell, HP,
and other manufacturers?

~~~
scottchin
As mentioned by someone in another thread, one possibility is that Surface is
partly meant to set the bar for third-party manufacturers.

It's high enough make the competition (Dell, HP, etc) put out good products
that won't tarnish the new Windows platform image. But not so high as to make
third parties not want to bother competing.

This was a problem with early Android. There were so many poor devices that
the entire Android brand was hurt (but since recovered).

~~~
mtgx
I think that's just smoke screen. Microsoft clearly wants to be in the
hardware business and to make money this way. They are envious of how easily
Apple can make a ton of profit with a lot less "market share". I don't think
they really care what happens to the manufacturers, if in the end they make
more money on hardware than they do through licensing.

