
Giving Up on the Current MacBook Pro Keyboard - tomduncalf
https://theoutline.com/post/4277/dont-buy-the-new-macbook-pros-even-on-sale-in-my-opinion
======
mypalmike
The keyboard/trackpad combination of the last decade of Macbooks (Air/Pro)
were basically perfect. I like the OS, and I've never found a PC laptop to
come remotely close to the sweet ergonomics of those Macbooks.

And then I got a 2017 Macbook Pro at my new job. Never mind that the keys are
reported to stick (mine haven't yet), it just feels terrible. Virtually zero
throw in the switch. And a personal pet peeve, they made the same mistake
Microsoft did with their ergo keyboard for 1 sad iteration (before they fixed
it in later models) - they changed the arrow keys from the standard upside-
down T layout to a diamond layout. Those designers at Apple wanted symmetry so
they made it happen. Too bad it kills the ergonomics.

But the trackpad is where it really goes downhill. It's physically huge for no
good reason. Worse (and the reason I'm seriously looking to see if I can swap
it for an older model), it routinely (like 20% of the time) mistakes 1- and
2-finger clicks for each other. I never know which it's going to do. I never
experienced this at all with any of my older Macbook Pros and Macbook Airs.
Good luck giving a presentation - you're awkwardly fumbling with context menus
when you don't want them, etc... audience will think you've never used a
computer before. And yes, I've disabled all the stupid gesture stuff because
it was even worse before I did so.

The "only 2 USB C ports and a headphone jack" is the icing on the cake. I
could live with it if it were the only issue, but it just annoys me that I
need to bring a docking station with me to stay plugged in while presenting
and using any usb peripheral. What's the benefit here - maybe 1/2 mm thinner?

~~~
shaklee3
I've seen this sentiment echoed over and over on here. I'm always wondering
why people continue to order Macs. It's very rare that I see positive comments
about the touchbar. The reason can't be because macos is better, since there
are tons of complaints on here about that too. The hardware is definitely not
the best anymore. So why are people still buying them?

~~~
mvdwoord
It's a UNIXy system, that actually works with the hardware. Closing the lid
mostly. In 20 years I haven't seen a single Win/Linux laptop that worked (on
decently specced HW).

Oh sure, tons of "I have a perfectly working linux on x" but drilling down it
always boils down to fiddling, updating, manually correcting some value
somewhere, tweaking.. etc.

I switched to a mac some 8 years ago on the desktop and 6 years ago as my
daily driver laptop. I would love to break out of the apple ecosystem for
something more free but I just have not been convinced it exists yet.

With all the complaints about macos, rightfully so, quality seems to be
degrading somehwat, the HW/SW combination is still unbeaten in my book. I run
Fusion on it, with a Windows Server VM and Linux VM w shared homedir so I can
run whatever tools best fit for the job. Only real gripe is memory limit of
16GB. Oh and the touchbar. Fuck the touchbar. Could have been nice as an
addition above the Fn key row.

Now let's hope my keyboard holds out ;)

~~~
SuperMechaCow
I have a Dell Inspiron 17r 7720 and a Macbook made in the same year. Spec for
spec they are very comparable machines, but if I had to choose I would pick
the Dell every time. I've used Ubuntu on it for years with zero "fiddling"
required. Windows 10 is on a physical SSD, but with one command it's
configured to run on a VM in Ubuntu. Many people have gotten Mac OS to run
natively on the Dell, but I decided to spend hundreds on a Macbook instead
because to the enormous amount of "fiddling" it would have taken.

TL;DR: I've had the opposite experience as you.

~~~
mvdwoord
Sounds good, a quick scan of the reviews show lots of praise. Wondering about
battery life though, and I would still need to see it for myself before I'm
convinced.

I am optimistic though, seriously think that when my current macbook is up for
replacement there will be a handful of capable machines with proper (HW) linux
support.

For me however, lacking that positive first hand experience is what makes me
keep ordering macs.. for now.

------
zitterbewegung
I have had no problems with the current Macbook Pro keyboard. Am I in the
minority? I also love the feel of it. I really like the low travel and the
Touchbar helps a bunch with my RSI. I don't use the Trackpad at all unless I
really need to. I also use Emacs which gives you an idea of how much I use the
keyboard.

~~~
outworlder
Not saying that you are wrong, but I have a couple of questions: do you touch
type? which types of keyboards did you use in the past? Laptop, desktop,
chiclets? Mechanical?

I think this may have to do with the kinds of keyboards people are used to.
Some prefer lighter keys, some prefer a lot of key travel, some like clicky
keys, etc.

This is why Cherry makes so many kinds of switches...

~~~
zitterbewegung
At home at my Desktop I type in an IBM model M. I used to have a Corsair k70
which I played FPSes and Warframe. I have a Apple Bluetooth keyboard that is a
chicklet. I also have a Chicklet keyboard on a Toshiba satellite . I also used
the chicklet keyboards on a MacBook Pro 2011 and a MacBook Air 2012.

On my k70 I had red Cherry MX switches . When I was in kindergarten I used
Apple II keyboards.

For mobile devices I used an Motorola droid and a Treo. Also a blackberry .

EDIT: Sorry forgot to mention I touch type (I am touch typing on a IBM model M
right now).

~~~
outworlder
And now my heuristics got completely overwhelmed and I cannot fanthom why
someone who types in an IBM Model M would like the Macbook Pro keyboard :)

Although we have both used the apple bluetooth keyboard and Airs, so that may
have contributed for the higher tolerance of the new Macbook Pro keyboard.

Right now I'm typing using a Logitech K750 solar keyboard, which feels very
similar to Apple's bluetooth keyboard (although I feel that the keys need
slightly more pressure to activate). It is dead silent which is great to use
around coworkers.

At home I want to get a Kinesis Freestyle Edge for the ergonomics, and I'm
debating if Cherry MX Browns or Blues would be better.

~~~
zitterbewegung
Oh forgot to mention I have used all of the ergonomic keyboards by Microsoft.

------
mchannon
My experience:

Joined a startup, raring to go, and they needed to get me a top-end MacBook
Pro (16GB instead of 8GB as I recall). Apple stores in SF refused to stock the
top-end, pointing me to their build-to-order options at the store. +5 days
minimum.

Went with a mail-order house and next day aired in a top-end MacBook Pro
laptop (which they had plenty of in every color). Shift key was DOA. Took it
in to the Apple store. They had the gall to tell me that since I didn't buy it
directly from Apple, they wouldn't (not couldn't, wouldn't) repair it in
store, but would send it to their warranty center in Houston (right after
Harvey). Got it back fixed, but so many days wasted.

Apple gets so many really difficult things right. Simple-seeming things like
basic customer service and proactive quality control escape them.

~~~
huebnerob
Apple doesn't repair _anyone 's_ laptop on site, they're all shipped to repair
centers.

And if they don't stock your configuration in store, there's no way to just
hand you a new one either.

I'm not saying your experience was any less shitty than it was, but there's
nothing else they could have done than what they did.

~~~
clamprecht
This is false, they repaired my Macbook Pro in the store when the enter key
started failing.

~~~
brandall10
The new one? I was told they would have to send my 1 month old, purchased from
an Apple Store late 2016 MBP in for a flakey 'R' key to have the top case
replaced. I asked if they could pop off the keycap and clean it and they said
that they do not do that on the butterfly design.

~~~
clamprecht
No, mine is the late 2013 Macbook Pro Retina. The parent poster said "Apple
doesn't repair _anyone 's_ laptop on site".

~~~
brandall10
I read "anyone" in this context to mean Apple is not discriminating against
people who purchased from 3rd parties.

This is in response to the GP's comment "They had the gall to tell me that
since I didn't buy it directly from Apple, they wouldn't (not couldn't,
wouldn't) repair it in store" \- which isn't the case, this is the policy for
the butterfly models.

------
outworlder
They keyboard is bad. It may not be _atrocious_ and I've seen some desktop
keyboards with much larger key travel which are even more unpleasant. But good
it is not. Which is surprising, because Apple created the best chiclet-style
keyboards in the past. The older mabooks and the airs are completely
acceptable. The Apple "magic" keyboard is actually pleasant to type on and I
bought a third party keyboard which mimics it, although cheaper and 'solar'
powered.

They made bad compromises. People who actually needed a macbook pro were not
asking for a slimmer package. People focusing on size and weight might.

Case in point: I bought a Macbook (not pro, but with second gen butterfly
switches) for my wife, she doesn't seem to mind, even when typing essays. She
is not a touch typist however.

I'm typing this in a Macbook Pro at work, but using a bluetooth keyboard, so
it is a non issue. At home, same deal, except I'm planning to upgrade to a
mechanical keyboard.

If I am on the go, then I'll have to use the integrated keyboard. But this is
rare for me. If you only use it on the go occasionally, then the keyboard may
not be a deal breaker.

Still, my Dell Chromebook has a MUCH better keyboard, and it only cost me a
couple hundred bucks. This is seriously wrong.

~~~
brandall10
The OP is not making a case that the keyboard feels bad, he's saying it's
questionably fragile design - as a tool, it is unreliable.

I can concur, have had sometimes flakey keys going on 1.5 years now. I'm
fairly adept at removing the keycaps but have several that trigger double-
presses from time to time. It's frustrating.

------
canuckintime
Here's the direct link to Casey Johnston's article:

[https://theoutline.com/post/4277/dont-buy-the-new-macbook-
pr...](https://theoutline.com/post/4277/dont-buy-the-new-macbook-pros-even-on-
sale-in-my-opinion)

------
jetblackio
In an office of 20+ developers on Macs, over half have had to get their
keyboards replaced, and a few more just live with broken keys. This keyboard
is truly awful.

After 10 years on the Mac, I'll be switching to ThinkPad / Linux / Hackintosh
if the next MBP doesn't fix the keyboard issue.

~~~
echlebek
I spent 8 years writing Linux software on a Mac, with various configurations
including SSH, VMWare and Docker development environments.

For a while I was happy about this state of affairs, but over time I became
increasingly dissatisfied.

Late last year I started a new job and essentially demanded that I be allowed
to choose my own hardware. I ended up getting a high-spec X1 Carbon and
running a Fedora variant on it.

It works very, very well. And the keyboard is great. I won't be going back to
a mac any time soon.

~~~
narwally
Have you run into any issues with Wayland? I've been running Mint for the past
few years, but the lack of fractional DPI scaling is frustrating so I've been
considering switching to Fedora.

~~~
echlebek
I'm using Gnome with Wayland and I haven't had any issues. However, I'm not
using fractional scaling either.

------
starpilot
Big /r/apple thread about MBP keyboard issues:

[https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/83frmc/macbook_pro_2...](https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/83frmc/macbook_pro_2016_3rd_butterfly_keyboard/)

The subreddit is mostly rabid diehard Apple fans, so the amount of discussion
there on this is telling.

I'm on my 7 year old MacBook Air and I've never had keyboard issues. Looks
like I'll be waiting for the 2018 MBP to upgrade.

~~~
YetAnotherNick
I have a 4 year old macbook air, and if they just upgrade the screen, I will
definitely buy one more today.

------
DamnInteresting
Adding my gripe to the cacophony: I upgraded my 2012 MacBook Pro to the 2017
model because I wanted a bigger SSD and one more monitor than the old machine
supported.

Much of the time it's fine because I have it docked, giving me access to a
regular external keyboard. But when I travel or use my treadmill desk, forcing
me to use the built-in keyboard...ugh. The key travel distance provides poor
tactile feedback, making it feel like I haven't pressed hard enough. And my
typo rate goes through the roof. I didn't have those problems with my 2012.
And Apple's decision to go with only USB-C is a constant source of
inconvenience; I wrongly expected it would pass over time. All this, and no
noticeable performance improvement.

I still have the 2012, I haven't had time to prep it to sell. I'm seriously
considering finding other ways to deal with its limitations so I can ditch
this awful 2017 instead. What an expensive mistake.

------
neximo64
I moved to a Surface (and absolutely love it!) after going through 2 12"
Retina Macbooks and being fed up with having to take the laptop to Apple as
they're the only ones able to safely remove the keys and put them back on.

It was a nuisance when a laptop designed for portability cant be carried
around easily. I found when its vertical/in a backpack it lets dust move
around and settle under the keys. Every time I carry it around previously
unlocked keys end up 'sticky' & it constantly needs cleaning.

With the Surface and WSL (Windows Subsystem for Linux) its quite refreshing
with Windows 10. On occasion I do still use the mac for Xcode but that's about
it. Not to mention the alcantara keyboard is an absolute pleasure to use.

------
beaugunderson
I'm on this model and have now had to replace four keys from the QWERTY row
(E, R, T, and O).

The issue is that the pinchers at the top of the key no longer hold after a
while, so the keys fall off. I do like having four E keys, though. (Rather
than try to guess which key would fail next I just bought a bunch of E keys).

When I took it to an Apple store they told me they couldn't just replace the
keys and wanted to do a whole top case, leaving me without my computer for a
week. I think they guessed (correctly) that if you have one key come up that
the rest will follow. My "I" key is feeling loose and will probably go in the
next week or two.

~~~
mattbeckman
The "S" and "Command" keys kept falling off on my '16 MBP. Replaced them at
$12/piece a few days ago from an online store.

My issue appears to have been the brackets on the keys themselves perhaps
broke or wore down over time due to how impressively fast and heroically
accurate I type.

~~~
9935c101ab17a66
Apple Stores CAN get the keycaps for these models. I think they default to
replacing the top case because replacing the keycaps themselves don't always
resolve the issue, but if you ask nicely at the apple store they may be
willing to give you a few extra key caps if you're willing to install them
yourself!

------
funkydata
I'm still using/programming and typing on my 2010 17 inches MacBook Pro.

The keyboard still works perfectly whereas my acquaintances that have bought
newer models have had the keys falling, failing, discolour and whatnot.

That and the ineffable mate screen and screen size.

I've changed the memory, the hard drive and the battery to keep going and it's
still going, albeit with more fan noise.

I'm really afraid/don't want to switch to a new/lesser MacBook Pro.

~~~
natvert
I'm in exactly the same situation. I just wish it had coffee lake, 32gb of
ddr4 and a modern gpu - e.g. an upgrade. Who cares if it's marginally thinner
and lighter?

With Ubuntu 18.04, Linux is more usable than ever... already runs my desktop
and I'll be switching my laptop to Linux as well unless Apple releases
something more suitable for power users this summer.

------
calebm
Literally today, my wife took her Macbook (bought last year) to the Genius bar
to get the Enter key fixed - you had to press really hard to get it to take.
The repair person just cleaned off the underside of the key. They said they
didn't even see any debris. I think there is a real design flaw here.

------
notadoc
The new MacBook Pro (2016 to current) is a mess on multiple levels, the entire
thing should be scrapped and redesigned.

The 2015 model and before remains the best Mac laptop, it's too bad they
couldn't just update that to have 32GB RAM and a modern CPU. The keyboard is
already great, it already has many ports that are widely used, it has a
hardware escape key and function keys, it does not have an annoying touch bar,
it's an upgrade in every possible way compared to the newer mess for what a
"pro" user actually cares about.

~~~
ridgeguy
This. I bought a 2015 from the Apple refurb store rather than a new 2016 model
for just the reasons you cite.

~~~
amac
Likewise. Don't regret the decision.

------
StephenAmar
I absolutely hate that keyboard. It just does not feel right and I can't write
more than a few paragraphs without getting very frustrated.

~~~
dandare
Funny how personal this is - I literally loved the keyboard on the first
click. It feels strange when I have to occasionally type on my 2014 MacBook.

------
willtim
Developers should just buy a ThinkPad and run Linux. A much more dependable
machine and a far superior keyboard.

~~~
delinka
Until they have to build and test iOS apps...

~~~
justherefortart
Buy a used Mac Mini. They haven't been updated in like 5.5 years at this
point. You can just remote into it.

Or just build a hackintosh.

~~~
kitsunesoba
Neither is a good option for an established company — in that situation your
app is likely too large/complex to compile quickly on a mini and the legal
grayness associated with hackintoshing makes that a no go.

At work I just use an external KB while I’m working at my desk (98% of the
time), rendering the macbook’s internal KB almost entirely moot.

~~~
bananaboy
I agree. The Mac Mini is enticing as a build server because of its price and
form factor, but goddamn does it feel slow. I suppose a Mac Pro would be a
better choice but they are so much more expensive.

------
Osiris
I definitely prefer my 2015 MBP over the TouchBar models. The 1 thing I DO
like about the new models is universal USB-C charging.

I have an Anker USB-A/USB-C charger for my phone and it charges my TouchBar
MBP just fine. Beats having to buy an expensive Apple charger to have one at
home and one at the office.

Other than that, the 2015 has USB-A, HDMI, better keyboard, smaller touchpad,
and actual Fn keys.

~~~
JamesPeters
no way would i give up magsafe for usb-c

~~~
kalleboo
USB-C has been better than MagSafe for me for 3 reasons: 1) Can charge off
either side, which has solved most of the cases MagSafe helped me with 2) I
can replace just the cable with a cheap third-party one instead of replacing
the whole expensive Apple charger when their crap cable falls apart 3) Can
extend my battery life off a regular USB power bank

------
protomyth
I took mine in and the Apple Genius just tried to clean it to no avail. So, I
have a broken "b" key and need to send it in to get it fixed. The "guy who
could take the keycaps off wasn't there" despite the pre-questions Apple asks
before the appointment scheduling.

I'm going to wait a bit. I was one of the people who took their iPhone 6 in
and paid full price for the battery (3 times because 3 of the 4 phones we
bought had the same problem). I plug it into thunderbolt 3 docks at home and
work, so I guess I can hold out until Apple admits it sucks and has an actual
fix. I'm under AppleCare but I just don't see the gain in sending it in to get
replaced by another keyboard that will break again.

------
bdcravens
When I was at RailsConf last week I realized (during a session while I was
typing) how loud the keyboard is compared to the last gen

------
wilwade
Lots of trouble with mine as well. Key presses getting doubled or more.
Especially on the "b" key. Had to replace the entire key and membrane and
clean underneath the glued membrane to get it working again. (was 2 months out
of warranty)

Also had the left command key just fall off. I know I rest my finger on it,
but it shouldn't just fall off.

I like the low travel that some complain about, but any keyboard is useless if
it doesn't work consistently.

~~~
9935c101ab17a66
Just FYI, some credit cards extend manufacturer warranties to two years, so
may be worth looking into it. Also, which model do you have? Some non-TB
2016-2017 13" MBP are eligible for a free topcase replacement for battery
issues.

~~~
wilwade
It's the TB 15". I thought about seeing if I could go into an Apple store and
see if I could get them to do it, but I am currently 2 hours away from the
closest real one.

------
mediocrejoker
I just this week purchased a 2015 refurb MacBook Pro (the last model year
before the keyboard redesign) because of all the compromises one makes when
choosing a Mac, an unreliable keyboard is where I draw the line.

------
skeletonjelly
> This keyboard has to be one of the biggest design screwups in Apple history.

I feel like this is a bit overstated. What about "Just avoid holding it in
that way", or Apple Maps v1, or the Magic Mouse 2 that requires you to stop
using it to charge it?

~~~
JeremyBanks
Having chronically defective keyboards on your computers is much worse than
the examples you provided.

> Just avoid holding it in that way

Pretty minor defect when honestly compared with other options on the market at
the time, blown out of proportion by the media.

> Apple Maps v1

Forced move for business reasons, recognized by most Apple employees as shitty
but inevitable.

> Magic Mouse 2

A few minutes of downtime every month is annoying and maybe a mistake, but
less critical than a non-functioning non-replaceable keyboard.

~~~
skeletonjelly
Yeah it's all arguable but seriously "minor defect"? Holding a phone has to be
a mandatory design requirement wouldn't you agree? Compare this to a faulty
keyboard I'd say holding a phone causing it to be useless trumps that.

Maps was bad. Real bad.

> The police department stated that the error was potentially life-
> threatening, as national park temperatures could rise to 114 °F (46 °C) and
> those traveling would be without water supplies

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Maps#Early_inaccuracy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Maps#Early_inaccuracy)

Just because they made updates over the last 7 years doesn't take away from
the fact that the initial release was a big "design screwup".

Magic Mouse v2 yeah I get the charge time doesn't last long but it's still a
stupid design. Less critical sure I agree.

~~~
JeremyBanks
Apple Maps was really bad, but that doesn't necessarily make it a mistake.
IIRC, Google was demanding that Apple share a lot more user data for further
use of their data in Maps, which would probably have been worse for Apple
long-term (particularly given how well their privacy angle is serving them now
in 2018). If they picked the better of two bad options, that's not a screwup,
it's just unfortunate. The quality was understandable for the amount of time
they had to produce it. There are limits on how fast you can effectively scale
up to compete with Google's thousands of Maps staff.

The antenna problem may have been worse than I remember. I'd still say that at
least that has cheap and easy user fixes once you become aware of the issue.

------
netman21
I write for a living. Jumped on the new MacBok Pro without test driving it.
ouldd not type with out making lots of errors. Gave it to my daughter and went
with an Airbook. She bought a separate keyboard to use with the Macbook.

------
King-Aaron
My 2015 MBP's keyboard AND trackpad died about six months into owning the
machine. I treat my computers very carefully, and this current one rarely
leaves my office.

However, Apple's Genius people told me that they wouldn't offer a warranty
repair, because I had apparently damaged it. They wanted several hundred
dollars to replace parts, of which needed to be ordered in and would have seen
me without the machine for about a week, which wasn't really ideal. At a
guess, the ribbon to the motherboard had broken. But honestly this is the
first computer I've ever owned that I haven't just ripped apart and fixed
myself, due to the perceived complexity of the operation to do so. (I don't
need the magic smoke escaping from my primary workhorse).

So since then, I've just had my mechanical keyboard and mouse plugged in,
effectively making my laptop an expensive desktop. Coworkers love mechanical
keyboards @ 120words/min

------
jrq
If the Mac books are so bad, why does HN keep buying them? Do you guys just
like writing these blog posts about how much it sucks?

Didn't we know it would be worse before it ever even hit the store? Why
subject yourself to that inconvenience, especially if you're a developer. You
got shit to do, don't let your tools be one of your obstacles.

------
nkkollaw
I had many problems with my MBP, and it came out so long after the last model,
that I completely abandoned Apple after I'd say 8 years.

I think there should've been a massive recall. I don't know why people put up
with spending a fortune on a laptop and you can't even type on it...

------
9935c101ab17a66
For anyone suffering from this problem on a 13" MBP non-touchbar with an
elapsed warranty: you may be eligible for a free topcase replacement (the part
that houses the keyboard) as Apple has identified some models that have
defective batteries (and a battery repair == new topcase == new keyboard).

Info here and serial number checker here:
[https://www.apple.com/ca/support/13inch-macbookpro-
battery-r...](https://www.apple.com/ca/support/13inch-macbookpro-battery-
replacement/)

------
bengale
I’m on my third now and just booking to take it back with more failing keys.
Useless compared to the old ones.

------
b212
I always considered Apple's keyboard superior but after using Macbooks
(pre-2015), Apple Wired Keyboard and Magic Trackpad II for about 3 years I got
severe case of RSI, I'm basically unable to write using their keyboards, never
tried post 2015 ones in Macbooks though (and they're supposedly even worse?).

My symptoms are non-existent while touch typing on cheap keyboard with Cherry
MX Red switches.

Using Apple feels like hitting concrete with my fingertips.

I think they're doing something REALLY wrong here and have been for some time
now...

------
keyle
My B and J occasionally stuff up. J sporadically doesn't work and then JJ
happens. Sigh.

I admit it's a pleasure to type on this keyboard all day long though.

I was toroughly disappointed when I bought the $179 'magic keyboard' from
Apple (the dark one from the mac pro), and found out the tech is the outdated
keyboards, with 2.5x price tag!

No single key problem on this keyboard can overshadow its biggest problem: the
useless arrow keys.

~~~
jimejim
I had to have my keyboard replaced twice due to BB repeat issues. Same key
both times even though they supposedly replaced the entire top of the
keyboard.

I still prefer working on an external keyboard, but when it's working fine I
don't mind it so much.

------
ionised
Have a company-provided MacBook Pro 2017 here.

Aside from being much better to develop in than Windows (iTerm2 is a dream,
even compared to CygWin/ConEmu) a few things seem really shitty;

1) The keyboard. It's bad. Really bad. The space key on mine is starting to
stick already and its only been a few months. I'm using a cheap Logitech
wireless mouse and keyboard with the keys remapped to OS X defaults.

2) Mouse handling. I have no idea what is going on over at Apple but mouse
code has been awful for as long as I can remember and the Magic Mouse we were
given with these laptops are probably the most unergonomic device I've ever
used. They are really terrible.

I'm using a wireless Logitech mouse which is much better, but there are crasy
OS issues with sensitivity/acceleration that no matter how much configuring
and tweakingf I do, never feels right.

3) The last OS X update seems to have caused a LOT of issues for people using
certain models of external display adapters. I've basically lost a 1/3 of my
screen space because I can only get one external monitor to work at a time
since the machine updated to 10.13.4.

------
nerpderp83
I had a key fail on a less than one year old touchbar MBP, corp had to swap
out the whole laptop, with the old one going back to apple for repair.
Ridiculous that you can't pop off the keys and fix them. 2015 was the last
good year for MBP so far. My 2012 era machines are still running perfectly.

------
porsager
Suffering the same issue on my 3 months old mbp. Never had any keyboard issues
on my previous one from 2012.

------
chrischen
I've had this problem and when I got an even newer mac I solved with a cheap
plastic keyboard cover. It has completely solved the problem, but i'm
dumbfounded as to why Apple hasn't simply fixed this by preventing stuff from
getting under the keys using a similar method.

------
mynameishere
I had to use a new Macbook pro for a while and didn't for one (willing) second
use the keyboard. I've also used Windows and Linux laptops of various
configurations and really never used the keyboards. I mean, a laptop keyboard
is something you use on the airplane or at a meeting. But for real work?
Never. Why do people torture themselves?

But the Mac keyboards have been broken for a while. A pointless function key
where the control key belongs? No one has explained that one to me yet. So,
just keep the stupid thing shut and problem solved.

------
fabiant7t
The worst part: As a 2016 MBP 13" owner, I cannot rely on my keyboard. The 1
and the n key fail or trigger twice sporadically. So I always carry an USB
keyboard (plus adapter of course) in order to be able to really use it when I
need to. Password entries with fuzzy functioning keyboards are a mess. It's a
really bad experience.

------
thisisit
Discussed twice earlier:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16924975](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16924975)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16922476](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16922476)

------
proee
I wonder what actually changed in the new design that causes this problem? The
travel is obviously shorter butsomething else is fundamentally causing the
problem. Does it have a smaller surface area/pad, different pad material,
different coating etc...

~~~
lbotos
For mine, it's basically any speck of debris that get's lodged, it fails to
register the press until that debris moves to another spot.

I think the tolerances for "pressed" are too small for "real world" use. Any
crumb will "lock up" the key.

~~~
proee
Maybe previous versions had a better "dust keepout" or the contact pad is
larger so more resistant to dust.

~~~
mypalmike
Previous versions were of a different design such that you could shove a small
sandwich under the keys and they'd still work.

------
rjplatte
I went from a Thinkpad to the 2017 13 inch MBP w/touch bar. I'm a light
typist, and I actually like the keyboard. No issues for 6 months, good
actuation force. Of course, sometimes I plug in the Das just to be loud. :-)

~~~
batiudrami
Come on mate at least read the article - it's about a manufacturing/QA issue;
not ergonomics.

~~~
rjplatte
I did. No issues. I like it, it works.

------
SomeHacker44
I sometimes travel with my magic keyboard, which fits exactly over the regular
keyboard. Especially helpful when you need the F-keys or ESC, like when using
your favorite IDE or VI (and you didn't learn the CapsLock trick).

------
jen729w
Any Australians here? With our excellent consumer laws I’d love to hear
stories of these being taken back.

13” TB owner here with a double-responding \\. Haven’t done anything about it
because 95% of the time I’m using an external Filco.

~~~
plaguuuuuu
I've read that we're entitled to free warranty repair/replacement, even
outside the stated warranty period, if a product could reasonably be expected
to work for x years and breaks before then.

Since even cheap laptop keyboards work basically forever it seems likely to be
eligible?

~~~
exikyut
Hmm.

(Massive) Australia Tax notwithstanding, I wonder if people could buy things
"via" Australia in order to be able to send them back and benefit from the
country's consumer replacement laws and such.

Would be fiddly, but I wonder if it would be worth it?

------
thegigaraptor
I use an external keyboard, but I can empathize with people using it as you
normally would. I've experienced the dead spacebar and rarely use the built in
keyboard.

------
thegayngler
I guess Ive been lucky. I have avoided any keyboard issues with my rMBP w/TB.
I love the keyboard. I wish it worked well for everyone else.

------
ggm
Loved my pre Lenovo ThinkPad kB. Replaced because I hammered the etched keycap
letters out by hand. Made to replace.

------
chendragon
I bought one of these things last year around September. I had the 12 inch
2016 MacBook before it.

tl;dr buy a keyboard cover if you have this machine, or just contend with
cleaning under the key with alcohol.

I've had a fairly good experience with the keyboard on these machines. The 12
inch MacBook had a perfect keyboard. I love the low travel keyboard and they
really got it right.

But then on the MacBook Pro, it seems like the butterfly mechanism was changed
to make it more susceptible to foreign matter causing key malfunctions.
Admittedly I eat at the computer, so this is probably my fault, but the 12
inch MacBook didn't do this.

Either way, every time oddities like double characters or non-responsive keys
happened, I'd carefully pry up the key, use a q-tip soaked in 70% isopropyl
alcohol and just clean out the area. You have to get a LITTLE bit of alcohol
into the actual switch dome. Basically, you take the q tip with alcohol on it
and dab the middle of the little dome madly for a while. Then you stick the
key back on and it usually works.

I got really unhappy about how often this started happening, especially since
some keys' retention clips broke after so many removal cycles, so I just
bought a silicone keyboard cover (the MoKo) one off Amazon. It held the keys
in place.

No more problems. That's what it took. It works great now. And the cover
doesn't even make it terrible to type on, due to the low travel.

~~~
fouc
The downvotes are probably because you can't pop the keys on these newer
keyboards anymore, so the alcohol method doesn't apply here.

A keyboard cover does seem necessary.

~~~
james-mcelwain
Apple support literally tells you not to use a keyboard cover, which I find
kind of amusing given how prone to breakage the new keyboard is without one:
[https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT203671](https://support.apple.com/en-
us/HT203671)

------
keypress
Many laptop keyboards I have had, have had failed keys, or trouble with
crumbs.

------
rdxm
just laid my 2013 MBP to rest after full 12 oz water spill onto keyboard. Have
no doubt it would have lasted much longer were it not for my fumble.

Have a new MBP with old-stool keyboard (yes I have and esc key), and it feels
good so far, but oh boy will I be pissed if it shits the bed.

these things are too expensive to fail that easily. "design" is one thing but,
fragiltiy not ok.

------
tomduncalf
Sorry, this one is kind of a dupe of my other post
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16922476](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16922476)
\- it disappeared off the front page so quickly that I thought I’d see if a
Daring Fireball link fared better. Apparently this is just some kind of anti-
spam for Apple related posts though so moderators please feel free to handle
as appropriate!

~~~
dang
We'll change the URL back to the original article (from
[https://daringfireball.net/linked/2018/04/25/johnston-mbp-
ke...](https://daringfireball.net/linked/2018/04/25/johnston-mbp-keyboard)).
That seems fairer, as well as in keeping with the site guidelines' call for
original sources
([https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)).

