
Ask HN: What is the point of “© 2020 CompanyName” in website footers? - truetaurus
If I simply add this to the footer of my website, does that automatically have legal authority?
======
kjhughes
According to The United States Copyright Office
([https://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ03.pdf](https://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ03.pdf)):

Advantages to Using a Copyright Notice

Although notice is optional for unpublished works, foreign works, or works
published on or after March 1, 1989, using a copyright notice carries the
following benefits:

• Notice makes potential users aware that copyright is claimed in the work.

• In the case of a published work, a notice may prevent a defendant in a
copyright infringement action from attempting to limit his or her liability
for damages or injunctive relief based on an innocent infringement defense.

• Notice identifies the copyright owner at the time the work was first
published for parties seeking permission to use the work.

• Notice identifies the year of first publication, which may be used to
determine the term of copyright protection in the case of an anonymous work, a
pseudonymous work, or a work made for hire.

• Notice may prevent the work from becoming an orphan work by identifying the
copyright owner and specifying the term of the copyright.

~~~
nathan_f77
> Notice identifies the year of first publication

Oh, I didn't realize this. I always thought I should use the current year as
the copyright year. My impression was that using a year in the past makes it
look like the website hasn't been updated for a long time, or that the website
owner doesn't pay attention to detail.

Should I always be using the first year in the copyright footer on my website,
instead of the current year?

I just looked at some very large websites (e.g. Facebook, Twitter), and they
all use 2020. Maybe it's just better to follow this convention.

~~~
falcolas
When the content changes, that new content is under a new, and current
copyright. So most of the time using the current year is legitimate.

Of course, it’s probably just automated, since updating the copyright with
changes once a year is probably too big of a pain.

~~~
truetaurus
So i guess really one should so 2002-2020

~~~
postingawayonhn
I always laugh at the copyright dates on this [1] Australian government
website. It claims 2003-2020 but I'm pretty sure it hasn't changed since 2003.

[1]
[https://www.edge.asic.gov.au/004/compportal/get/ServicesLogi...](https://www.edge.asic.gov.au/004/compportal/get/ServicesLogin)

~~~
macleos
Not to be pedantic, but wouldn't changing the year to 2020 itself count as a
copyrightable change?

~~~
thatcat
single words / short phrases aren't copyrightable so probably not

~~~
2038AD
The whole work with the change would still be under copyright

------
JimDabell
Copyright is automatic. You don't need a notice, you own the copyright as soon
as it's fixed into a tangible medium – basically when you hit save. It can
confer some advantages in some countries if you sue somebody for copyright
infringement. Are you planning on doing that rather than simply forcing a
takedown if somebody copies your website? No? Then don't bother.

Being realistic, you see copyright notices on websites because people see them
elsewhere and assume they are necessary and add them to their own sites
without thought. Then other people see _those_ notices and assume the same
thing. It's a vicious circle. Lots of people copying others who don't know
what they are doing.

It's why every year on New Year's Day you get a bunch of people going "It's
20xx, update your footers!" and more people saying you should just
automatically show the current year. The copyright notice isn't there to tell
you what the current year is – everybody knows what the current year is – it's
there to tell you what year the work was first published.

~~~
oneplane
What countries and laws/judicial systems are you referring to? I don't think
it's the same in all ~200 countries around the world.

~~~
JimDabell
Copyright is automatic in all countries that have ratified the Berne
Convention. Countries that have ratified TRIPS (which is a requirement for
membership in the WTO) also follow the Berne Convention rules. There's a
handful of countries that aren't members of the WTO that don't follow these
rules. I would assume that enforcing copyright in these countries might prove
problematic with or without a copyright notice.

~~~
chx
How much of Berne is included TRIPS is interesting and rather telling. Yes,
automatic copyright is included. Where it gets interesting is when you review
how they made sure there are no loopholes towards intellectual property rights
while explicitly excluding moral rights...

------
salamanderman
Marissa Mayer, in an early IO keynote, said she put the copyright note at the
bottom, though arguably meaningless, to let people know the page was "done
loading". She said that in initial user studies she did of the minimalist
Google homepage (Sergey said it was that way because "I don't do HTML") people
would just sit there doing nothing but watching the screen. When she asked
what they were doing, they replied "I'm waiting for the rest of it". Websites
loaded so slowly in '98, and ironically were also utterly covered in links and
images and crap, that we were all accustomed to just sitting there until the
pages fully appeared. So, while she didn't think the copyright necessarily
meant anything from a legal perspective, it worked to tell people "there's
nothing more to wait for, please proceed."

~~~
ExactActuation
> Marissa Mayer

Oh yes, the great inspiring Marissa Mayer, the woman who rushed into Yahoo!
and banned work from home but for anyone but herself and and had a daycare in
her oversized office.

And then proceeded to run Yahoo into the ground.

I'd prefer not to listen to anything she has to say.

~~~
ogirginc
Your statement is 100% correct but misses the entire point -
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22854475](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22854475)

------
tkiley
Even though the answer to your question is "no", many lawyers will advise you
to add the copyright symbol anyway. Even if the symbol is not operative by
law, it still operates on the minds of potential copyists who don't know
whether it matters. In this regard, the copyright symbol is kinda like the
"protected by ADT" sign in a front yard: It's not protection per se, but it
might serve as a deterrent.

On the other hand, the likelihood that a mere copyright symbol will deter
economically-consequential copying from a website/webapp is quite low.
Therefore, as a former founder and current law student (and definitely not a
lawyer yet), I'd advise you to do whatever the hell makes sense for your
business for ancillary reasons. Add the symbol if you think you're dealing
with superstitious folks to whom a copyright symbol lends an aura of
credibility; omit it if you are going for a clean aesthetic.

~~~
rozab
Lawyers exist to get paid. We all know, for instance, that copyright notices
in source code are pointless (and I mean like an extensive message in every
single file) but it's more important for a lawyer to cover their ass from any
possibly liability than to make the company more efficient. And of course, it
creates work for them.

~~~
klodolph
I don’t think it’s pointless.

Someone copies a source file, maybe you can argue that it’s accidental.
Someone copies a source file and strips out the copyright notice, that shows
intent.

~~~
brudgers
It takes an argument by a lawyer in front of a trier if fact before stripping
copyright from source files shows anything. Irrespective of details, the
wherewithal to lawyer up is mostly what matters because “fuck you sue me” is a
sound legal strategy in so many cases. Or to put it another way, unless you
have a lawyer on retainer the odds of bring a ne’erdowell to heel are low and
one on retainer is probably saying it’s not worth it if they’re worth their
salt. YMMV

------
geofft
As mentioned, the Berne Convention means anything that can be copyrighted
(creative works: stories, articles, art, etc. - but not data or ideas) are
automatically copyrighted.

But in US law, if something infringes your copyright, you can get more damages
if the court rules it was "willful" infringement. I'm not totally sure it's
settled that a copyright notice makes a difference, but I'm guessing big
companies think it can't hurt. (Also keep in mind whether you're as willing as
big companies to go to court, or if the most you practically want to do is
have a lawyer send someone a polite but firm letter.)

Another thing you can do if you want things to go better in court (and isn't
really worthwhile otherwise) is to register your work with the Copyright
Office.

------
eesmith
There is no need to use the copyright symbol or make other declaration before
having copyright protection. Under the Berne Convention, copyright is
automatic.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berne_Convention](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berne_Convention)

> Under the Convention, copyrights for creative works are automatically in
> force upon their creation without being asserted or declared. An author need
> not "register" or "apply for" a copyright in countries adhering to the
> Convention. As soon as a work is "fixed", that is, written or recorded on
> some physical medium, its author is automatically entitled to all copyrights
> in the work and to any derivative works, unless and until the author
> explicitly disclaims them or until the copyright expires.

For the US, see [https://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-
general.html#mywork](https://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-
general.html#mywork) :

> Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed
> in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of
> a machine or device.

> ... In general, registration is voluntary. Copyright exists from the moment
> the work is created. You will have to register, however, if you wish to
> bring a lawsuit for infringement of a U.S. work. See Circular 1, Copyright
> Basics, section “Copyright Registration.”

That "Copyright Basics" links to
[https://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ01.pdf](https://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ01.pdf)
:

> Applying a copyright notice to a work has not been required since March 1,
> 1989, but may still provide practical and legal benefits. Notice typically
> consists of the copyright symbol or the word “Copyright,” the name of the
> copyright owner, and the year of first publication. Placing a copyright
> notice on a work is not a substitute for registration.

~~~
truetaurus
I see, so i could remove it for even a cleaner look.

~~~
gshdg
You could. But there are enough people out there who are ignorant about
copyright that you’re less likely to end up with violations if you include it.

~~~
kqr
Also IIRC stripping a copyright notice from plagiarised work is a more severe
offense than just the plagiarisation alone.

~~~
gshdg
Plagiarism and copyright violation are not the same thing.

Plagiarism is an ethical offense but not a legal one and isn’t limited to
direct reuse. It includes using _ideas_ (even in your own words or
representation) without attributing them.

Copyright violation is a legal offense and applies to direct reuse (including
various forms of “remixing”).

(IANAL, this is not legal advice.)

------
gorgoiler
You don’t have to write your name on your property to know it’s yours. You
don’t need a (c) symbol and your name to be able to lay claim to ownership.

But if someone takes your property it’s helpful in getting it back if the
thing they claim to be theirs has your name on it.

With copyable property, especially where copying might reasonably be expected
such as with source code or content on a website, it’s helpful for other
parties to know who they should ask if they want to take a copy. (The license
may also require that the original owners name be included on copies.)

You can also put the license right there too. Especially if the license is “no
license” aka _All Rights Reserved_.

(C) 2020 gorgoiler, all rights reserved.

------
seanwilson
I have a super simple explanation for this:

\- users see copyright notices on every big brand site, so if you don't
include a copyright notice, you risk not looking like a big brand. Adding it
is a simple way to look more legitimate.

\- everyone else does it, so it must be a good idea and be done for important
legal reasons, right?

------
danielfoster
Because the 70% of the population who thinks it’s necessary won’t take you
seriously if it’s missing. Sad but true.

------
anigbrowl
There isn't any, really. Your stuff is automatically copyrighted as soon as
you create it, and the ability to recoup damages from infringement depends on
your registration of a copyrightable work with the LoC rather than putting a
copyright notice on it. However, it used to be that case that inclusion of
copyright notice was essential and forgetting to include it could lead to a
work falling into the public domain.

In the event that you're litigating a copyright claim it is slightly easier to
do so if you have copyright statements littered about, but on the other hand a
vexatious counterparty would just get into the weeds of arguing that they were
either not prominent enough or overbroad (perhaps because you were using a lot
of open source or public domain assets).

------
redis_mlc
1) Google originally added it back in the day to show the end of the page
(their sparse search page looked like it hadn't rendered to a focus group.)

2) In the USA, you don't actually need to do anything, but some countries,
like Japan, prefer explicit copyright registration, etc.

~~~
anticensor
3) Some jurisdictions in Europe start the duration of copyright by publication
and copyright notice helps in those cases.

------
tgb
Same question but what about trademark or registered symbols? You see them on
even store signs and I've always wondered if they're the least bit helpful. Is
Kellogg's really worried you'll try to steal their logo if they don't put (tm)
after it?

~~~
c22
Unlike copyright, trademarks _have_ to be defended to remain valid. If you let
your trademark become too generic you can lose it [0].

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_trademark](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_trademark)

------
gav
Back in the early 00’s I worked for a tiny web design agency that mainly did
e-commerce (Yahoo Store, post-Viaweb). As you might imagine the first week or
so of January was sleepy, people are coming back to work, sales are low,
nobody is going to add new products or want changes for a while.

But, people were very keen on getting their copyright notices updated with the
new year. It was a welcome trickle of revenue to spend an hour going in and
updating it.

Just about everyone agreed that it was pointless, but they still wanted it
done.

------
amelius
Copyright is automatic. A copyright notice will not protect you in case anyone
copies your work.

If you want to protect your work, submit it to a timestamping service with
your name/signature in it. Then you can at least show that at the given
instant you were in possession of the work. If another party can't do the same
for the same work at an earlier timepoint, then you have a stronger case.

------
en4bz
If you do not register your work with the US Copyright Office you can not
claim statutory damages in a lawsuit, only real damages.

------
DenisM
I keep one at the bottom of the page so that users know not to scroll any
further.

A page without decoration of some sort at the bottom looks naked, bottomless,
and what better decorator to use than the one used by every single site out
there?

------
learnstats2
There is a non-legal point that I sometimes find useful when I'm browsing: it
illustrates that someone updated the website in 2020.

(or at least that they future-proofed it).

In this sense, it shows the website is alive.

------
hbarka
To show who’s maintaining their websites. It’s a tell about the company when
it still says 2019.

~~~
atoav
Contrary to popular opinion that year should be the year in which the content
was _first_ created and not the current year – unless you deleted your 2019
content and created a new one in 2020.

------
max937
Looks better and more professional.

------
babulus
Anything original that you write is copyrighted at its completion. There is no
requirement to register copyright (in the US at least). The website is
copyrighted regardless of the notice, but that notice can alert readers to the
copyright claim.

------
eebynight
The real answer to this question that people are missing:

\- The website you are looking at most likely uses Shopify as a CMS, they add
this automatically to any store created with their software.

So no, people don't add this on purpose. There around 500,000 active Shopify
stores according to recent statistics so this is why it is so common to see
it.

