
Ask HN: Client's project can be a startup - _benj
Hello everybody,<p>So, a client is hiring me to make a project for them (software). It&#x27;s a pretty sophisticated tool and the alternatives are quite expensive.<p>I&#x27;m trying to figure out how can I (if I should) communicate that to the client.<p>Do I reach an agreement in which, for example, I change them less but I keep ownership of the code?
Make it an open source project and provide it as SaaS?
Proprietary code and equity?<p>Thanks!
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Rjevski
First of all I would consider it very unethical to steal your client's
idea/project or try to extort money from them just because you believe their
idea has potential.

You are hired to write code. Bill them for the time & effort it takes you to
write that code. Doesn't matter whether the code has potential or not (if it
does, great, because you're likely to have future business from them, and
possibly end up being hired in a senior position, maybe even CTO).

You can communicate this to them as your personal opinion, but make sure you
don't come across as threatening. Ideally let them know _after_ the deal is
sealed and you already agreed on a rate, otherwise it might come across badly
during the rate negotiation where they don't really want to pay X amount of
money but at the same time feel pressured to accept otherwise they think you
might run away with the project/idea/whatever.

~~~
kojeovo
> You are hired to write code

This is pretty wrong imo. I believe we're hired to create business value.

An important question here to OP: Have you signed anything yet.. as in have
they hired you yet? Or are you still negotiating?

If they're hired on at a discussed rate, and then realized the project has
potential - then I agree, too bad. Don't be shitty.

But if it's early stages of negotiation and OP believes this is gonna create
1m in business value, and wants 100k for it.. then sure, pitch it to the
client. Want the IP after? Ask them. Maybe talk to a lawyer though.

~~~
gammateam
Everything you wrote is based on the idea of OP not already having been hired

Way too many assumptions to decide if anybody is right or wrong

Someone already hired doesnt get to imagine how their work for hire becomes
something they own

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dyeje
The answers on this question are naive and harmful. It is common for
contractors, agencies, etc to negotiate for keeping the IP of what they work
on. Many businesses use this as a tactic to convert from a services company to
a product company. There is no straling or unethical behavior at play here. If
you can reach an agreement with your client, everything is fine. Just make
sure to have a lawyer draw up the contract, as it sounds like you haven't done
this kind of arrangement before.

------
rajacombinator
I disagree with others here saying what you’re proposing is unethical. It
depends a lot on context and what kind of agreements you’ve already signed. If
the client sees it as a core part of their business or you’ve signed something
that limits your options, then it’s on the less ethical side. However from
your description it sounds like the client see this as incidental to their
business and just a tool they want. In that case I see no reason why you can’t
have a conversation about other options with them. I think it would be very
reasonable to offer them a much lower rate plus some kind of long term SaaS
contract options in exchange for the IP and rights to sell the service to
others. They may say no but you could discuss it at least.

~~~
ecesena
> you’ve already signed

it doesn't seem he signed, and that's I think what's confusing here. People
say it's unethical, but he's in fact just asking how to set up things
correctly from the beginning... or at least this is my take.

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odonnellryan
I have been approached by clients asking for a discount before in trade for
equity.

If they are willing to pay the legal fees and you can afford to lose the time,
sure? It is nice for them for you to have buy-in, nice for them to get a
discount, but what do you gain?

Can they run a business successfully? Your (probably) small share is not going
to mean much in terms of running the company.

Do you trust them enough not to get into major legal trouble that is going to
cause you crazy headaches down the road?

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ecesena
If you say "is hiring me" I assume you've not started yet. Given that
launching a startup is no joke, if I were you I'd start working on the tool
for them, paid in full, keeping your idea to turn it into a startup in
background.

After a bit, if you're still committed to that, you feel you have cofounder(s)
and money, then you can start sharing the idea with the client. I personally
very much doubt switching from internal tool to SaaS will be no brain, and as
long as you don't reuse their code you should be free to rebuild a similar
SaaS. Test their interest in becoming your first customer and/or an investor
in your startup (perhaps in exchange of the code you already wrote for them).

I'd be very cautious because if there are alternatives that are quite
expensive... there might be a reason for that. And I wouldn't be too
optimistic about your personal cost (time & money) to switch an internal
project into a startup. This said, best of luck, and post it on HN when you
launch!

------
nik736
So you want to open source the idea and whole software that you are being paid
to write? I would never ever hire you, alone for coming up with such an idea.

~~~
odonnellryan
By default in the US the person paying the contractor to write the code owns
it.

But, that does not mean there is anything wrong with the contractor asking for
an alternative agreement.

I do a lot of contracting work and my clients always own 100% of my code: but
I could see that if I were to be approached to write something I could then
market to my other clients (a lot of them are in finance) maybe I could ask
them to develop for free or cheap to do that.

I don't see any problem with being honest with your client and asking them.

~~~
pydeveloper22
Hello,

My apologies in advance that this may not be the response you were looking
forward to on forum question.

But I discovered an older post online on the Hacker News site some time ago
for a Remote Junior Programmer/Assistant at Luma. I noticed you were looking
to make your first hire and find someone that has some knowledge in
technologies such as Python and Linux.

Well, I had completely forgot about viewing it and so I was checking out
Hacker News job board today and saw it was for a remote Part/Full-time opening
available at the Luma in the NYC area.

Well I'm someone who enjoys coding and learning with Python as far as learning
purposes/hobbies go. Plus, I'm someone who has been going the self taught
route trying to break into the IT field/Python Development world. I also have
interests in some of the things mentioned in the post such as finance/trading
and business.

But, more than anything.. I'd looking to further learn and grow in my skills
as far as Python development goes. I don't have much experience with Django
Web development but feel I can learn and pick up on it as well as with any
other technology requirements quickly.

After quickly reading your post on Hacker News I was encouraged and interested
to reach out and contact you for more info.

So with that said, here I am..and I wanted to inquire to find out if this
opening is available? Or has it been filled? Also would you allow for training
of junior developers to get up to speed? I had to ask because but I wasn't
sure if you meant junior or for more seasoned developers.

Also, you have a contact number to learn more about this position or
information on the things you require in regards to the nature of the job to
increase one's chances to be a part of your startup team? Any help in this
matter will be greatly appreciated. Thank you

Feel free to contact me at: pydeveloper22@gmail.com

\--K

