
More Serotonin, Less Motivation? It Depends on the Circumstances - baalcat
http://neurosciencenews.com/serotonin-motivation-6112/
======
rubicon33
> The effect of these serotonin “peaks” on locomotion was almost instantaneous
> (speed reduction manifested one second after stimulation) and transient,
> with things going back to normal after five seconds. But during this short
> period of time, “the animals acted as if they weren’t motivated”, says Zach
> Mainen, who led the study.

I'm really, really, not sure how they can draw the link to general motivation.
Ok, so the animals seemed not motivated after serotonin spiked? Couldn't that
possibly just be due to the transient effect alone? Like, once stabilized at
higher levels, maybe they would have normal, or even higher motivation. It was
that you "shocked" them with it..

------
gumby
> Serotonin-producing neurons are located in an area of the brainstem (the
> most “primitive” part of the brain in evolutionary terms)

Stupidly simplified. Seratonin is a key chemical throughout the body. There's
more of it in your gut than in your brain (why do you think people on SSRIs
gain weight?). Focusing your attention to behaviour regulation entirely on the
brain is silly.

~~~
comboy
> There's more of it in your gut than in your brain (why do you think people
> on SSRIs gain weight?)

It's true most of it is in our guts, but the weight gain link seems a bit far
fetched. In the gut, serotonin depletion leads to the feel of hunger and high
levels of serotonin is where you get a diarrhea. If anything I would expect
the opposite [1]

1\.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7312891](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7312891)

~~~
blackguardx
Rats are a decent model, but they aren't humans. From googling around, it
appears that weight gain is a common side effect in most (all?) anti-
depressants.

[http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-
conditions/depression/exp...](http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-
conditions/depression/expert-answers/antidepressants-and-weight-
gain/faq-20058127)

[https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-antidepressant-
diet...](https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-antidepressant-
diet/201007/reversing-antidepressant-weight-gain)

~~~
comboy
I'm not denying the correlation. Just doubting the idea that it is caused by
increased levels of serotonin in the gut.

~~~
blackguardx
Your original comment makes more sense now. I thought you were doubting the
SSRI link to weight gain.

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antihero
If anyone's taken MDMA at a rave as opposed to a house party, this kinda rings
true - when your serotonin is boosted and you're dancing and listening to
music and interacting with people it's amazing, but if you're at a relatively
chill party you tend to sit in the corner just feeling fuzzy as hell until
already motivated to do stuff.

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DrScump
Blogspam of

[http://magazine.ar.fchampalimaud.org/more-serotonin-less-
mot...](http://magazine.ar.fchampalimaud.org/more-serotonin-less-motivation-
it-depends-on-the-circumstances/)

The original has more links and references; the original author credit (Ana
Gerschenfeld) was stripped out of this.

------
kittenmittens
Hugged? Cached version:
[https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:QKx0u2...](https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:QKx0u2z0OHIJ:https://neurosciencenews.com/serotonin-
motivation-6112/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=no)

------
threepipeproblm
People like Ray Peat have been saying for decades that serotonin is really a
stress hormone.

~~~
elihu
In what way? That serotonin causes stress, or that stress causes serotonin to
be released? Or the opposites of those, that serotonin relieves stress or
stress causes a reduction in serotonin? Or something else?

~~~
mirekrusin
It's more complicated but he's saying for example [1] that stress elevates
serotonin (ie. in hibernating animals stress from declining food supply
elevates serotonin production, which decreases body temperature by lowering
metabolic rate; similar effect is in non-hibernating animals, like humans, in
winter).

Interesting idea somewhere in the middle of this article, about "generations"
of anti-depression drugs. He's basically saying that when drug patent is close
to expire, they "invent" new generation of drugs, which patent holders claim
is better than previous one (he's saying that 3rd gen (SRI - Serotonin
Reuptake Inhibitors) are actually not better than 1st gen (MAO - MonoAmine
Oxidase)).

He's saying that Lilly makes over $2 billion per year on Prozac for example.

From what he's saying it also seems that "playing" with serotonin increases
suicide rate in people who didn't have suicidal thoughts (but were depressed).

Also that the clearest effect from studies of serotonin is that it's causing
"learned helplessness" in subjects.

I'm not sure how accurate this is, just skimmed over [1] - please read the
source if you want more info. There are other articles on that site as well
related to serotonin.

[1] [http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/serotonin-depression-
ag...](http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/serotonin-depression-
aggression.shtml)

------
ada1981
Probably also important to point out that SSRIs don't seem to be much more
than active placebo for the first few months for most people, and that most
people's depression lifts without them. And that SSRIs are super addictive, so
once they stop working you can't get off them easily without massive
withdrawals and are usually given some other mix of drugs.

The "imbalance" model for depression / mental illness was a great hypothesis
and was worth exploring. Unfortunately there really has never been any studies
that really support it, but it's certainly a narrative big pharma loves when
people repeat.

MDMA and other psychedelics on the other hand have been very useful in single
doses (or short series) in effectively curing PTSD, depression, anxiety,
bipolar, etc.

I know from first hand experience.

For me, my research led me to see the fragility of the main stream narrative
and seek to understand other ways.

I found a model that suggested past cultural, developmental and shock trauma
caused a freezing of the organism into a fight or flight response (which
depending on the individual manifested in a number of ways), and that the way
to "heal" that experience was to relax the ego enough (default brain network)
to allow new information in. Dan Siegel calls this the "window of
opportunity". Various therapies offer a gradual opening of this window, from
Journaling for PTSD to the most effective I found, NARM.

When used in a therapeutic setting, MDMA allows for this relaxing and those
unexperienced exoeriences (trauma) can be released -- this was experienced for
me, and many, as a safe revisiting of the hardest moments in my life in an
understanding way.

The human psyche even has its own reboot system to accomplish this, though
like a psychedelic, if your culture lacks the understanding and set / setting,
it can land you in a psyche ward.

This reboot process is called "psychosis" and it is induced internally when
external stresses push the organism beyond its model of the world.

What happens is the default network relaxes and allows new information flows
to come in -- this is identical to a psychedelic experience from my direct
experience and if one can stay with it (and not end up having a 1st year
psychiatric resident with no experience holding space for a psychosis to come
to completion shoot you up with some anti-psychotic) you emerge, predicably,
with a new sense of confidence and mission / message -- which is almost always
directly related to the under represented values / conditions that existed in
your environment that caused the stress.

People experience some version of this all the time, creativity is spurred by
pain, people get stressed and then have an insight, etc.

Some cultures have identified the value of this experience fully completing
and in integrating the wisdom from the sensitive person who is manifesting
symptoms for the collective -- they are Shamanic Cultures, and they have a
process and protocol for initiating folks, almost always with the use of non-
ordinary states (plants, dance,fast, chanting, sweats) to heal and gain access
to new views (non default network brain mode).

For me, it's been quite amazing because once those patterns unwound inside,
all of my relationships took on this magical new quality of wholeness and
safety, as I was no longer hiding from certain feelings.

As someone who was labeled everything from schizophrenic, schizo-affective,
bipolar, depressed, anxious and has tasted the heights of mania and depths of
suicidal depression, I can say that I'm without a doubt healed of the bulk of
the trauma that was beneath the surface and it is due to using a variety of
non-ordinary states of consciousness to create that window of opportunity
(both medicine potentiated and non-medicine potentiated.)

My team says I'm no longer diagnosable with those and have been asked to
compiling my research for a PHd program (which I may do). And I've gone to
work to integrate the values & vision I came back from my experience with
acrosss a wide range of industry (outer space, permaculture, education,
politics, etc.)

In honor of Valentine's Day I should mention that Love is also a powerful
psychedelic that requires the right set and setting (when we lack the right
set and setting, the nature of the psychedlic is it can reveal an old trauma
and if it's not addressed, it can retraumatize people or make them feel
worse).. Ann Shulgin (wife of Sasha, the man who resiscovered MDMA) famously
said "love is the psychedelic experience that all humans have access to in
this lifetime, and they would outlaw that too if they could."

<shameless plug> I am actually co-leading a workshop in NYC tonight about how
to use True Love as a psychedelic healing experience. My yogi girlfriend & I
will demonstrate in real time how we use the psychedelic nature of love &
conflict to access and heal our deepest parts so we can be more real and
effective in the world.

The workshop is called Drama As Dharma, in NYC and we have a couple spots
left, I'd be happy to comp anyone a VIP ticket ($60) if they'd like to check
it out. 2/15, 6:30-9pm @ Reflections Center for Concious Living </shameless
plug>

If anyone wants more info on how I handled this stuff or wants to come
tonight, my email is anthony @ 175g . com

Thanks! Anthony

