
Don't Fly During Ramadan (2013) - atomroflbomber
https://varnull.adityamukerjee.net/2013/08/22/dont-fly-during-ramadan/
======
arjie
For what it's worth, practically every brown guy I know goes through the
rituals when interacting with US Gov officials. Shave, look as clean cut as
possible, and don't stand out. So no opting out of the scanners, no joking at
security or immigration, better have backup ID.

I'm not saying it's right that it's this way but it's safer. The officials are
not very smart people but they have power, so you just give them what they
want.

I'm not going to wage this war for liberty or whatever it is. I'm just going
to go on vacation.

~~~
klarrimore
The security charade is nonsense, there's no doubt but I see hundreds of brown
people going through security with zero issues every time I go to JFK.

------
jtchang
It's sad how much flying has changed since 9/11\. Younger individuals will
never realize how much easier it was to get through security. I'm sad at how
he was treated and it's something that needs to be changed. It's not like
treating anyone badly is going to result in more information.

~~~
macspoofing
>It's sad how much flying has changed since 9/11.

Sad but predictable in a world with a global movement of suicidal religious
fanatics willing to murder thousands of people and cause billions in property
damage. It is what is. I miss the old days too, but I wouldn't vote to water-
down airport security.

>I'm sad at how he was treated and it's something that needs to be changed.

Does it? He refused the millimeter wave scan, got a pat-down, tested positive
for an explosive or poison, and then refused further screening - what should
happen at that point? Should he be cleared? Where did the TSA go wrong here?

~~~
phkahler
He didn't refuse the scanner, he was given a choice and when his choice was
going to get complicated he could no longer switch back to the scanner. He did
opt for the scanner on his new flight. But none of that is really relevant to
how he was treated. Why deny him a glass of water?

~~~
macspoofing
>He didn't refuse the scanner

He wasn't detained because he refused a scanner. You know that.

>when his choice was going to get complicated he could no longer switch back
to the scanner.

Well ... yeah. What you refer to as a complication was him testing positive
for explosives or poison.

>Why deny him a glass of water?

Is that the problem? He didn't get a glass of water?

~~~
DanBC
> What you refer to as a complication was him testing positive for explosives
> or poison.

You might want to look at the Birmingham Six.

They were from Northern Ireland (and thus automatically suspected of
terrorism) and living in Birmingham; they were travelling to attend the
funeral of a childhood friend (and he was a terrorist); they travelled on the
day a bomb went off in Birmingham; and they played a game of cards on the
train.

Those cards were coated with nitrocellulose.

The fragments of nitrocellulose on their hands tested positive as
nitroglycerine, and that bit of "evidence" was used to convict them of a crime
they did not commit and imprison them for very many years.

[http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-12664938](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-
england-12664938)

You shouldn't make assumptions.

------
js2
I set off the chemical detector at SFO once.

I'm convinced it was because I'd been to one of those indoor go-kart'ing
places the day before as part of a company event, and wore the same jeans.

Extended screening was not a fun experience. I've always opted out so I'm used
to the standard pat down. This was a lot more invasive. I was directed to a
private area with two security officers (SFO uses a private contractor, not
TSA). Besides a more thorough pat down, my bag was unpacked and its items were
swabbed and chemical tested. I don't think the chemical tester went off a
second time. The whole procedure took about 15 minutes. It's not the easiest
situation in which to remain calm.

But, instead of getting annoyed at the security personnel (TSA or otherwise),
I remind myself that this is ultimately the doing of congress and my fellow
citizens. And then I send the ACLU another donation.

------
jacquesm
What a horrific story. JetBlue doesn't deserve any high marks for their
actions here either.

~~~
Pilfer
He set off the explosive detector, and didn't provide a good answer to why he
set it off.

~~~
jacquesm
> He set off the explosive detector, and didn't provide a good answer to why
> he set it off.

What, short of "I was making a bomb" would be an answer that would satisfy
you? It's not like it is up to him to know the intricacies of bomb detectors
and their ridiculous false positive rates for certain chemicals, including
such terribly dangerous goods as soap.

~~~
Pilfer
He doesn't know how to talk to security. The primary purpose of security
questioning is to establish that you are a safe, non-violent, legal traveler.
Of course, security agents can't ask you this directly, so they ask this
through proxy questions. Varnull did not understand this, and when asked the
proxy questions, he gave vague answers and did not address the primary
purpose. When the questions became personal, Varnull became defensive and
talked back (the exact opposite of what he should do).

All that really matters here is the discussion with the explosives agent. This
was the guy who had the power to 1) waive him on or 2) send him through
tertiary screening. The interaction for the whole day was decided in this
conversation. I honestly believe Varnull gave very bad answers here. Answering
"I don't know" is a very bad answer. Even if he didn't answer the proxy
questions, if he established that he was a safe and secure traveler, the
security agent would have waived him on and he would have avoided the whole
ordeal.

One of the answers he gave was so bad it made me cringe.

> _“Well, I haven’t touched any explosives, but if I don’t even know what
> chemical we’re talking about, I don’t know how to figure out why the tests
> are picking it up.”_

After he said this, I'm completely unsurprised he got held up in tertiary
screening.

~~~
ajmurmann
So it's the duty of the interrogated person to know how to give good answers
to security questions and not the security personnel's duty to ask good
questions?

------
ajmurmann
Previous discussion:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6258422](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6258422)

~~~
burger_moon
That last discussion was a shit show of people one-upping each other in the
oppression olympics. It seems like as soon as you compare one persons
experience to being not as bad or worse than another persons the entire thread
devolves into terrible accusations and comparisons.

~~~
dang
That second sentence would make a good HN comment. The first one is
pointlessly inflammatory; please don't do that here.

~~~
burger_moon
I'm sorry you feel that way. It's a perfect characterization of how most non-
technical comment threads threads go on here however.

------
no_acc_recovery
I have the full sympathy to the guy.

That said I am at loss what is it to do with Ramadan? I have not seen a single
statement that his ordeal has anything to do with Ramadan but it just happened
during Ramadan. Otherwise this is happening to all walks of life including
white dudes (though much much less frequently). Just a catchy title?

edit: my objection is to the title not the content.

~~~
valbaca
Fasting is a major part of Ramadan. The whole ordeal took several stressful
hours during which he was starved and dehydrated.

~~~
vilmosi
We wasn't following Ramadan, he's Hindu.

------
tuna-piano
Do you believe the government entered his apartment? It seems at least
somewhat likely. They see the sparse apartment and picture of some religious
thing on the wall, and it freaks them out. They take the picture back to their
office to figure out what the hell it is.

I'm not knowledgeable about this stuff, but it seems like they could have used
a "sneak and peek" warrant, as authorized in the patriot act.

[https://www.aclu.org/other/how-usa-patriot-act-expands-
law-e...](https://www.aclu.org/other/how-usa-patriot-act-expands-law-
enforcement-sneak-and-peek-warrants)

I kind of think this guy should look into a civil lawsuit against those
agencies. Did they violate any of his constitutional rights? Not letting him
get food / drink, threatening to hold his bag if he walked away? Was a search
warrant attained and he was never given notice, even after the fact?

~~~
a3n
> Do you believe the government entered his apartment?

Yes, I do believe that, because it's plausible, and because they asked him,
when facing his apartment building, which side the parking lot is on. Which
suggests that someone was there who could verify the answer.

~~~
daveFNbuck
To me it suggests that they had someone in the building trying to figure out
which unit he lives in.

------
badthingfactory
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary
Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

------
mustaflex
I've always wanted to visit U.S.A. but coming from a muslim background I'll
probably never do it. Just reading the post infuriate me.

------
jordigh
I have to fly today, from Canada to Europe. I probably shouldn't be reading
stories like these before a flight, but I did, top to bottom, transfixed by
the details. I hope I manage to make it through airport "security" without any
problem. I'll smile, I'll cooperate. Hell, maybe I'll even step into the
radiation machine for the first time in my life if I have to (I also always
have opted out).

I hate how scary this whole thing is. I fear it's going to keep getting worse.

~~~
whazor
Europe and Canada are friendlier than USA.

~~~
jacquesm
Not that much friendlier and getting worse every time I fly.

------
merpnderp
Have people really asked for a place to pray while flying on a plane? Why
would JetBlue ask such a weird question?

~~~
tuna-piano
Definitely, for sure both jews and muslims. The "following instructions from
female flight attendants" thing I would guess also isn't out of the blue...
maybe the airline has had experience with people not following female flight
attendant rules.

~~~
DanBC
> The "following instructions from female flight attendants"

There have been a few instances of people refusing to allow a woman to sit
next to them. They don't always move themselves, they sometimes insist the
woman is moved.

EG, but there are other examples:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11406112](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11406112)

------
cs2818
I recently was selected for a more thorough screening at the DFW airport,
which included walking through the metal detector twice, having a body scan,
the new "universal pat-down" [0], and individual swabbing and x-ray of every
item in my bag (everything required to be powered up as well).

I am often selected for pat-downs, despite using the scanner, and I must say
the newly implemented pat-down procedure was much more intimate than I was
comfortable with. There's got to be a better way.

[0] [http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-
now/2017/03/03/tsa...](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-
now/2017/03/03/tsa-rolls-out-new-more-intimate-airport-pat-downs/98713844/)

------
notburnt
The chemical test positive happened to me too: they swabbed my bag and the
machine beeped and I got a free full body massage.

This was when I was flying home from college for summer.

I explained it as "This is the bag I use for school: something must have
touched it during chem lab".

I am a coward for saying this, but your objective when flying is to get to
point B. So, make it easy on the jack-booted thugs.

You don't affect change by annoying your local officially sanctioned thug. You
affect change by voting.

If you want to make a stand, then come prepared for that: knowledge of law +
24 hours to kill.

~~~
cmrdporcupine
The chemical swab (at least the one they use in Canada) seems to get set off
by something in my wife's cosmetics pantheon. An agent made life hard for us
on our last trip, almost made us miss our flight, very stressful.

I have heard, can't confirm, that glycerin soap will detect as a "bomb
ingredient". Considering how ubiquitous glycerin soap, that's a rather
terrible test.

------
bbarn
I'm an average looking, run of the mill white software developer in my late
30's. I still get massive anxiety about taking air trips because of the hassle
and harassment I've received in the past from TSA agents.

I have a hope that the backlash against the recent two failed Trump bans will
continue to escalate and we'll see the end of this nonsense in our lifetimes.
I think even the people who voted for this administration are starting to
think it's absurd.

~~~
username223
I'm the same, more or less -- middle-aged, boring-looking white dude -- and I
also dread encounters with TSA and Border Patrol. Stealing my toothpaste is
the least of it. As far as I can tell, the people they hire have the petty-
authoritarian mindset of mall security, but with fewer legal constrains on
their power.

------
rokhayakebe
I am Muslim and I've been "randomly" selected at airports before. My advice:
smile and be nice as you should be with anyone. Granted you have every right
to not comply, when you are being hostile it does not help you get out faster.

------
hoschicz
Discussion on HN from 4 years ago:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6258422](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6258422)

------
GlennS
To me the most surprising thing: do people really not know the difference
between a Hindu and a Muslim?

They are the 2nd and 3rd largest religious groups in the world.

------
tpolm
Opting out of multimeter scans: not even once

~~~
Gorbzel
I've opted out every time I traveled prior to the introduction of (opt-in,
non-frequent flyer based) Precheck, so 8-10 times per year from 2010-2014(?)
and never had a notable issue.

As the other child comment says, rights atrophy if you don't exercise them.

~~~
leesalminen
If you're traveling with someone you know, one trick to ending the pat down
early is to try to embarrass the agent while in a sensitive area. My favorite
is "you know, he's only doing this because his girlfriend dumped him and is
lonely". ~50% of the time they stop immediately and say "you're good".

~~~
camtarn
Embarrassing the TSA agents might work sometimes, but some of them are also
known to be vindictive and petty towards anybody who even seems like they
might be challenging their authority. Given the possibility, however remote,
of accidentally angering a vindictive and petty person who has power over my
liberty and/or belongings... I think I'd just shut up and endure the pat-down.

------
designium
You are going to be tracked forever.

------
thr3290
> _timestamp on the paper: 10:40._ ..... _It was 2:20PM_

So this guy sets off the alarm (swab probably found traces of explosives ),
has no paperwork in order (proof of work), and has to wait for 3 hours before
it gets resolved.

Last time the HN crowd was enraged over someone who was questioned for 15
minutes...

I was detained overnight, and some of my friends were denied entry to US for
bullshit reasons... It is like a different planet.

~~~
literallycancer
>has no paperwork in order (proof of work)

Oh? I must have missed the law that required people to do be able to prove
where they work at all times.

>and has to wait for 3 hours before it gets resolved

 _By this time, I hadn’t had any food or water in almost eighteen hours._

Learning to read would be a good start.

~~~
thr3290
Did you ever cross international border?

My reading is just fine, read the article. He was 'fasting' before security
check. And he should say it is a medical emergency, if he felt like passing
out.

~~~
dang
Please don't create many obscure throwaway accounts; we ban those. HN is a
community. Anonymity is fine, but users should have some consistent identity
that other users can relate to. Otherwise we may as well have no usernames and
no community, and that would be an entirely different forum.

~~~
Cpoll
I think you're the only consistent identity that I recognize, because you post
this a lot :)

I always have some concerns when I see it:

\- Obviously controversial (but not clearly trolling) posts like thr3290's
can't be made without potentially endangering the poster (we've seen people
fired for public or semi-public remarks e.g. "donglegate"). I feel that this
would have a chilling effect on voices that go against the common sentiment on
HN.

I for one would not be comfortable using my account to make a comment like
that one, which means that with your rules, my opinion would be suppressed
(hypothetically speaking - I don't agree wth thr3290).

\- "We ban those" isn't corroborated by any clear HN code of conduct. I
(perhaps incorrectly) recall reading one at some point, but I'm currently
hard-pressed to find it.

\- It's not obvious to people who don't know you that you're a moderator. Your
account doesn't have any clear demarcation, and you don't mention it in your
profile.

~~~
dang
Oh of course, throwaways are legit when the topic is personally sensitive.
Some of the best HN discussions happen that way; for example there was one the
other day where a couple of throwaway accounts discussed what it's like to be
non-criminal psychopaths. Obviously we'd never get that without throwaways.
But that is easily distinguished from the users who routinely create
throwaways in order to completely depersonalize their comments. The latter is
actually an attack on the foundation of HN. Legit throwaways are actually
highly personal—often more personal than the main account.

On HN, commenters have a personal identity (which of course can be a pseudonym
if you want). If some users want a site where there are no such identities,
only free-floating comments with comment IDs, they should find or create such
a site and participate there instead. There's room for lots of different kinds
of internet forums. HN is just one kind, but it _is_ that kind, and the reason
we have moderation, including account bannage, is to preserve it as the kind
of site it's meant to be.

~~~
Cpoll
> On HN, commenters have a personal identity (which of course can be a
> pseudonym if you want). If some users want a site where there are no such
> identities, only free-floating comments with comment IDs, they should find
> or create such a site and participate there instead. There's room for lots
> of different kinds of internet forums. HN is just one kind, but it is that
> kind, and the reason we have moderation, including account bannage, is to
> preserve it as the kind of site it's meant to be.

I don't digest HN this way, at least - I prefer to separate the message from
the person writing it. I'm also pleased to note that there are far fewer
comment-reviewing/ad-hominem rebuttals on HN than on Reddit, and far fewer
'celebrities'.

On the flip side, I'm aware of some of the downsides of anonymous posting, so
I can't disagree with you there.

I'm just afraid that a lot of times that you warn against throwaways, it's
towards a controversial post (that's usually downvoted for being unpopular,
but not otherwise against the rules of the site). I believe those posts have a
lot of value, at least in reminding people that there are other perspectives
and that nothing is 'obvious' (and maybe getting them a bit more passionate :)
). I'm afraid of these disappearing, as I've seen happen on sub-reddits that
become debate-free echo-chambers.

~~~
dang
I don't want most of those posts to disappear either. The moderation comments
you're referring to are more targeted than that.

~~~
Cpoll
Fair enough. There's selection bias on my end, and even then I can't find much
fault.

Thanks for keeping the gears oiled around here :)

------
zodiakzz
Or, don't contaminate your stuff with dangerous chemicals before flying.

~~~
whack
The "dangerous chemicals" you're referring to is bed-bug spray from months
ago, that happened to get on his clothes while he was changing his bed sheets.
I've seen victim-blaming before, but this takes it to a whole other level.
It's genuinely scary that people like you exist.

~~~
goodcanadian
I highly doubt it was the insecticide. It is far more likely that it was some
combination of the cleaning supplies used. Many household cleaners can be used
in bomb making.

