
Tell HN: I can't even get a job offering to work for free - coryl
This is a short, funny but tragic story about my quest for a job. (Apologies for the length and writing style, its half story / half venting).<p>Background: I’m 23, graduated last year with a business degree. I have a bunch of startup experience, having projects mentioned on Techcrunch, TIME, CNet, CBSNews, and more. After a summer of working on a startup with my friend and technical partner, he decided to get a job with one of the big mobile handset developers. That left me with a choice; do something on my own (with limited technical ability) or get a job and learn something.<p>In September, I decided to give it shot and sent email out to the CEO of a local startup. I figured I wanted to be a part of the growing social product space, so a social analytics company made sense. I kidd you not, the subject of my email was “I want to work for you for free!”. It worked, and I got the attention I wanted. I recall the skype conversation we had later that week. We went over my life story, and he complimented, even gushed over me. “Wow, you guys are rockstars”, “I wish you would have told me sooner, I would have invested in you guys”, “You guys remind me of myself in the 90’s”, “This is exactly how I tell people to find jobs they want”. We traded business stories, discussed the local startup scene.  It was nice to hear, and it felt honest and sincere. If he liked me that much, then surely he would have something for me. I introduce him to my partner through email.<p>Soon after, I’m meeting the CEO and his #1 for the area (they have another office in California). My friend is also driving into the city later for dinner with the pair after work. We chat, he demos the product, tells me all about the operations and such. I refresh him about my crazy past projects. They ask me what I want to do as a role, I tell them I’m open and flexible. Money doesn’t matter to me, I just want the opportunity to learn and experience. “Okay then, we’ll you put you in touch with our marketing guy and see if he has anything for you”. I left feeling pretty happy and confident, having built a positive rapport and established a relationship with someone who “gets it”.<p>After another skype chat with the head of marketing, I’m even left with a weekend assignment; figure out what position I’d like to fill for the company, and give suggestions on what I’d do for the homepage and product. I indeed brainstorm my role (product development!) and even Photoshop a mockup of a new homepage design, just because I felt like it. But here’s where I failed to recognize the breakdown in communication; the responsibility of handling / recruiting ME, had passed on to a person I’d never met in a different coast. The buck had been passed, as it were. I’d been wiped clear of the conscience of the people I’d attracted from the beginning.
Weeks would go by, I would get an occasional email saying “things are crazy, we’re setting Q1 goals.” Oh, the life of a startup I’d assume. Its ok, they’ll get to me eventually. All the while, they corresponded with my friend in the same manner. They were wooing him, and after working only 3 months at a multinational mobile phone developer, he would quit to accept their job offer. That happened this week, leaving me wondering if I should shoot them an email to get things rolling again. I did, and several hours ago, they replied.<p>“Oh, you didn’t get the email we sent last month? Please see the following:…” It was a rejection letter. A nicely worded, complimentary letter in which apparently I have “rare, entrepreneurial qualities that will make you successful” and that I should “keep trucking”.<p>Fuck me. 10 weeks of sitting and waiting, expecting something to happen, and I’d only looked to do 1 other interview because I was so sure I wanted to work for this company. Naturally, I have a very emotional response to the rejection; “don’t tell me I’m awesome, but that you don’t have anything for me”…”make sure your interviewees get the godamn rejection letter, so they don’t feel like a dumbass when they email members of your company, asking what’s up”. And don’t forget the ugly, awkward feeling of having your friend get a job at the company you introduced him to and initiated contact with (feelings of “was I used? Did they ever give a shit about me?”).<p>Lesson learned I suppose. Nobody gives a shit about you, except YOU. What other lessons should I be taking from this? Don't introduce your friends to companies you want to work for until you have a job there first? LOL. Sigh, I don't even know what to think. In what world can you be complimented that heavily, and not even offered an internship. I can't even get a job offering to work for free.
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brk
No offense, but I think you may have aimed too high in reaching out to the
CEO. Unless you honestly think you're going to nab a position on the CEO's
staff (which is possible, but unlikely) you should try to get an intro to the
person(s) most likely to be able to make you an actual job offer.

I've seen variants of your situation several times in the past. CEO meets
someone, is impressed in some manner, passes the contact over to the lower-
level person, that person has no time/interest/need for candidate and the
process halts, usually after initial expectations were high.

I'll also say I find it a touch odd that after this single experience you find
it necessary to post the whole thing here.

tldr; you have some experience, you pursued 1 job opportunity which wasn't
even an actual open position req. and then you didn't get hired.

You could fill 100 HN sites with 1000 variants of that exact same story EVERY
DAY.

Again, not trying to be harsh, just trying to filter the reality out of this,
which is yours is a very non-noteworthy experience in life.

~~~
coryl
The difference is I wasn't looking for a "job". I'm a hustler, willing to do
what it takes, and I made it clear from the beginning. I wanted the
opportunity to learn and do, and money wasn't an issue.

It's a shock to me that I couldn't hustle my way into interning a startup at
virtually no cost to them, given my experience. Maybe I'm overrating myself
:).

Also, its a small startup, so I would have had to gone through the CEO anyway.
If you aren't satisfied with the quality or uniqueness of my story, you have
the luxury of flagging, not commenting, or otherwise ignoring it completely :D

~~~
alanthonyc
Just because they won't be paying you money doesn't mean it's cost free or
them. Taking on a person into any organization, but especially a small
startup, has many associated costs, from the time spent just getting to know
you, to teaching you stuff (if you're learning) to the opportunity cost of you
taking up some other potential person's slot.

~~~
staunch
Add to that the risk of _not_ paying someone for work done. Or paying them a
token salary but being required to offer them the same health coverage all
your employees have (due to plan requirements).

------
maxklein
It sounds to me like the company needed a real engineer to get real stuff
done, not a business guy. You demo a bunch of projects showing that your
friend is a great technical guy. So they go get the friend.

If he's asking you to "figure out what position to fill" it means that he
cannot think of where to slot you into. In other words, he can't really figure
out what he would be paying you for. But he knows your developer friend is
good, because you showed him this.

~~~
coryl
Yes, I don't hold any resentment against them for hiring my friend. Good
engineers are always in demand everywhere. At the time I initiated contact
with them, my friend had just started working, so the chance of hiring him was
slim. It happened over time I guess.

------
btilly
A few rules for you.

1\. Never keep only one ball in the air.

2\. Don't make yourself look desperate. People get suspicious when you want to
work for free.

3\. If you have a ball in the air, follow up on it. Don't let it sit for 10
weeks.

------
pclark
"10 weeks of sitting and waiting, expecting something to happen"

this was your mistake.

what are your skills? tons of employers on hacker news.

------
Robin_Message
Bad luck! One thing I'm sure I've read about networking that really rings true
is this [1]:

You don't ask the people you network with to employ you. It's taboo and
cheapens the relationship. Instead, you expect to refer people to them and
them to refer you to people.

This worked here for your friend — you referred him to this company very
effectively! But although they referred you to their marketing guy, it didn't
work out. Please don't burn any bridges with the CEO. If he really thinks you
are a strong candidate, then a short e-mail expressing your regret things
didn't work out with marketing and wondering if he knows anyone who's hiring
in the area will get you an interview somewhere.

[1] I'd be interested in a source if anyone has it.

------
wccrawford
It was long, so I skimmed it.

1) Don't offer to work for free. It makes you seem like you have no skills.
It's also a major hassle for a company, since they're coming under a lot of
fire for how they deal with interns. (Nevermind that the medical industry does
much worse and it's perfectly fine for them.)

2) Don't put all your eggs in 1 basket. Expect to take MANY interviews to get
your first few jobs, and multiple interviews for jobs after that. NEVER sit
and wait.

3) Of course nobody cares about your except you. Companies aren't in business
to make you feel good. They're trying to make money. In this case, they
actually SENT a rejection letter. It's quite common not to get one.

------
Aegean
This is typical of a sales story I read from books. You were on a sales
mission and it seems like:

1) You reached the wrong people. The focus of power in your case (CEO) was not
the one making purchasing decisions (the HR guy)

2) You did not solve a pain in your prospect's business or, you could not
sufficiently communicate what problem you would solve as an employee. You
should have focused on this in your conversations.

I wouldn't say they used you, and you shouldn't be angry. It just did not make
business sense for them and you could not make a sufficiently attractive sales
pitch to the company as a whole.

------
lockem
Jobs are like women, if you try too hard - they will loose interest and
quickly especially if they already have what they wanted.

Playing hard to get just works - like it or not.

It also seems to me you may have a talent at recognizing talent - you managed
to push your friend into that company and you've done that unknowingly - think
what you can do if you actually put your mind into find great people and
finding a job for them - or even better if they'll work for you even as a
freelancer - and you resell their services to various companies as an
consultant or contractor.

~~~
coryl
Haha, I actually thought about that - I'll send the company an invoice for my
recruitment fee as a headhunter. Hell, if I'm going to be finding people jobs,
may as well take a cut right :D

~~~
puredemo
So you are going to try to burn bridges with a non-negotiated (a more accurate
term would be fraudulent) invoice? How impressive.

Almost as impressive as your reactions in both a. handling the original
situation by waiting ten weeks and b. responding to negative feedback here by
telling people essentially "flag or GTFO."

You're quite an endearing person and I just can't see why they passed on the
chance to have you around.

~~~
coryl
Well I was actually being sarcastic about sending them the invoice, it was a
joke.

As for my response to negative feedback, I simply stated that if my story
isn't interesting, he was free to ignore it or flag it. HN has tons of stories
submitted every minute. I don't see a reason to comment in some, asking about
each's relevancy to HN. Thanks :D

~~~
puredemo
Fair enough. It just sort of seemed like a very entitled approach all around.

------
asanwal
At the most basic level, the cardinal rule if you want to work and succeed at
a company is to make your boss' job easier. When asked, "what can you help
with?", you said "you'll do anything they need" and thus transferred the work
to them to figure something out. That's not good.

They already have enough to do. So if you had said, "I have thought a lot
about this, and Ii think I can do x, y and z to start and potentially a, b and
c later", my gut tells me the outcome would be different.

Offering to do a free internship is indicative of moxy, but offering to do a
free internship and having a plan on how you can contribute is truly valuable.

Best of luck.

------
michael_dorfman
_What other lessons should I be taking from this?_

You answer your own question: _But here’s where I failed to recognize the
breakdown in communication; the responsibility of handling / recruiting ME,
had passed on to a person I’d never met in a different coast._

One lesson: Avoid breakdowns in communication Another lesson: Know where you
are in the hiring process at all times, and who has responsibility for your
case. A third lesson: Don't put all your eggs in one basket. Always have a
backup plan.

------
herrherr
This is my personal opinion, so feel free to disagree:

I would never work for free. I'm good at what I'm doing and I create value for
that company/person. No need to give this away for free.

------
erikb
You say you are a startup guy and then you just sit and wait? Entrepreneurs
are the guys who go out to find problems to solve and then solve them. So you
say you did nothing and got nothing in return. That is one side of beeing an
entrepreneur.

And by the way, if you really consider doing any work without payment, better
call it "internship". Otherwise serious business people will never consider
you. Who works for nothing is probably just a waste of time and energy.

------
maguay
It's not that you "can't even get _a_ job," it's that you can't get _that_
job. Don't give up ... keep pressing on, and you'll find a job that will be
even more perfect for you than that one. Or you'll end up creating you're own
job ... you're on HN after all ;)

Don't worry about the time you waited, just press on for the future!

------
jdjohnson
I'm curious, what else were you doing over those 10 weeks? Seems that's a lot
of time to just sit and wait.

~~~
coryl
Doing little things, learning a bit of PHP/MySQL. Training.

------
happywolf
If you are willing to work for free, why not consider to work on some open-
source projects that interest you? Those projects have a lot of stuff that you
can help and it will look good on your resume.

------
JonnieCache
_> Nobody gives a shit about you, except YOU. What other lessons should I be
taking from this? _

Anecdotal evidence is not evidence, even (especially!) if the anecdote is your
own.

~~~
coryl
What if its a recurring pattern?

~~~
JonnieCache
Then you should examine the common element. (hint: its you)

Reminds me of people who have been through a string of failed romantic
relationships and resign themselves to resenting the opposite sex. Shows a
lack of perspective.

Sorry if this comment comes across as callous, I cant think of another way of
expressing this without sounding like a bit of a dick.

~~~
coryl
Actually i was thinking a bit about philosophy and what is truth, but thats
for another time.

------
00joe
Its not all about you. There are a lot of reasons you could have been
rejected. Its difficult to say what went wrong. You need to try this ten more
times. If you get rejected all ten times try modifying your approach.

------
pmichaud
Anchoring is a sales and marketing technique in which a marketer "anchors" a
prospects expectation about pricing by mentioning a similar or related thing
and its price.

You anchored at "Free" -- bad move.

------
diazamet
Maybe part of the problem is the 'work for free'. It may suggest to people if
you see no value in what you can offer, what value would you be to the
company.

~~~
jakebisme
I disagree. In the startup community, you basically work for free until
funding comes through. I think this guy knew the situation and approached it
properly. Offering work is one of the best ways to get hired. Offering to work
for free sets the bar lower so its much easier to exceed expectations and get
a job after the pro bono project.

------
Andys
So, having been through all this, do you still want to work for this company?
The way you got passed off to a "marketing guy" doesn't seem right.

(Name and shame!)

~~~
coryl
It did bother me when I got passed off via email, pretty much "This is our guy
X. I'm going to let these guys take care of you now".

That said, I don't think they're bad people at all, just a crazy busy startup.

------
jth213
Nobody owes you a damn thing. Suck it up, move on, and don't get so
emotionally wrapped in a single opportunity ever again. You'll be disappointed
every time. Job searching is a numbers game. The more opportunities you
pursue, the greater the chance that you'll land one.

