
A Measles Case Hits Google's Silicon Valley Headquarters - aaronbrethorst
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/stephaniemlee/measles-google-headquarters-mountain-view
======
lukewrites
We are starting to look at preschools for our son, and I immediately strike
from the list any that does not require immunization. It's disheartening how
many don't have the requirement.

~~~
aquabeagle
Those that require it, do you ask if they allow exemptions for "religious
reasons"?

------
NeoBasilisk
Amazing that a disease that was eradicated decades ago can be brought back so
easily by human stupidity

~~~
joecool1029
Happens more often than you think.

We'd probably have eradicated polio already but the Taliban keeps killing off
humanitarians in Pakistan.

My dad's cousin spent his life trying to eradicate guinea worm with the CDC
but now we have a bunch of civil wars breaking out in the endemic regions.

~~~
acdha
> We'd probably have eradicated polio already but the Taliban keeps killing
> off humanitarians in Pakistan.

It’s important to remember that this was the direct result of the CIA’s use of
a vaccination program as a cover:

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/28764582/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/28764582/)

Whether or not you agree with that call, it seems likely to be an enduring
side-effect.

~~~
mikeash
It’s very strange to see this downvoted. It’s completely factual and on topic.
The CIA got thousands of innocent people crippled or killed just to track down
one man. Quite possibly millions, depending on how long it goes on and how
widespread it becomes again.

~~~
stcredzero
_It’s very strange to see this downvoted. It’s completely factual and on
topic._

I often see this pattern if I talk about anything controversial: 2 or 3
initial downvotes, followed by more upvotes. It can also just stay at -3 and
never go up. Then sometimes, I get 50 or 90 upvotes.

 _The CIA got thousands of innocent people crippled or killed just to track
down one man. Quite possibly millions, depending on how long it goes on and
how widespread it becomes again._

The thought process seems to assume that they can be "invisible" and their
activities have no externalities or long term repercussions. It's analogous to
injection with needles. The assumption holds true for small n. It falls apart
with large n.

~~~
InitialLastName
> I often see this pattern if I talk about anything controversial: 2 or 3
> initial downvotes, followed by more upvotes. It can also just stay at -3 and
> never go up. Then sometimes, I get 50 or 90 upvotes.

I suspect (based on things some of the mods have said) is that while the
number of upvote points is capped, the number of negative points isn't, with
the intention of keeping a bad comment from crashing someone's karma. As such,
for controversial posts (that a chunk of people feel strongly enough to vote
about), the post can quickly hit a negative but then eventually be overwhelmed
by positive votes (as long as it isn't flagged for one reason or another).

------
HarryHirsch
Thank God it's only measles, it causes encephalitis in just 0.5 % of the
cases, and the mortality is only 0.25 %. Imagine it was mumps! A frequent
complication in men is orchitis, and there are really gruesome photos with the
scrotum the size of an orange!

~~~
Someone1234
5% of children get pneumonia from Measles.

0.01-0.1% chance of Subacute sclerosing panencephalitis which can develop up
to ten years after initial Measles infection. SSPE will very slowly kills you
in the worst way imaginable (slowly lose your mind, control of your body, then
as your brain continues to get damaged your major organs will shut down one by
one). There's no cure. Babies have a significantly higher risk.

------
dogma1138
We had a case of measels in my London office 2 weeks ago was quite funny
coming to the office and seeing an HR email with a PDF of a scanned government
letter which contained a mandatory disclosure and advising people to contact
health services.

------
cletus
The scary thing about anti-vaxxers, at least to me, is how susceptible
educated people can be to essentially baseless fear mongering.

So when I worked at Google I (and many others) got into an argument with a
software engineer who had strong anti-vax opinions and honestly, it's mind-
boggling how removed from reality people can get, even people with a supposed
science education.

I'm glad California has started clamping down on personal belief exemptions.
That still leaves medical exemptions and unfortunately it seems like some
doctors are complicit in giving baseless medical exemptions.

In New York we've had cases of immunization records being falsified. I'm not
sure if it's by doctors or parents (maybe both).

Honestly any medical professional who falsifies immunization records or
provides bogus medical exemptions needs to be jailed.

So I'm honestly not surprised measles is showing up in SV tech companies.

~~~
aeternus
From the anti-vaxers I've talked to, it's not so much the fear mongering, it's
their distrust of scientific studies due to economic incentives.

Smart people especially know that it's relatively easy to lie with statistics
and to generate studies with subtle selection bias.

If your premise is that most/all modern scientific studies are funded by drug
companies and therefore cannot be trusted, then being anti-vax is still a
stretch but you can at least see how it could be rationalized. Especially
given the rich history of money suppressing/biasing scientific studies in the
past: smoking, asbestos, j&j baby powder, round-up, etc.

~~~
DoreenMichele
I used to spend time in an online antivax community because it was a good
source of alternative health info. Some members had Phds and we're published
authors.

Most people there had very negative personal experiences with vaccines. Either
themselves or one of their children had a serious reaction.

It's known that some people have serious reactions. This isn't something made
up by anti-vaxxers. But the current climate gets people with real problems
treated as nutters who simply don't have a real medical issue.

When I was growing up, we counted success in terms of how many people got
vaccinations, but there was no expectation it would ever be 100 percent. Now,
we act like we "failed" to get 100 percent when we quote stats rather than
counting the high percentage of vaccinated as a big success.

I think the root cause of the antivax movement is probably that we are leaving
no room for those edge cases who have a genuine problem with vaccines,
medically speaking. Those edge cases -- those people for whom this is a real
problem -- seem to have concluded that the only way to protect their own right
to choose is to make antivax the default norm instead of pro vax.

It's probably doomed because vaccines have proven to be beneficial to society
as a whole. But if it is clear in your own mind that vaccines are a threat to
your life, it readily becomes a hill you are willing to die on, so to speak.

I'm neither antivax nor pro vax. I think vaccines have their uses, but we need
room for those edge cases to have the right to choose.

I get vilified by both camps because neither can tolerate a moderate position,
which suggests to me they are both basically equally crazy. A reasonable
person is aware that exceptions exist and that you have to have a system that
makes allowances for that reality.

~~~
cletus
> ... but there was no expectation it would ever be 100 percent

Not sure where this straw man argument came from but I'll bite.

The point isn't to get a certain number of people vaccinated and never was.
The point is to eliminate preventable diseases that can be deadly or cause
permanent harm (eg paralysis, infertility). To do that you need herd immunity,
which is typically quoted at 95%+ immunity.

The US achieved this and "eliminated" measles in 2000 but thanks to
promulgating baseless falsehoods and people losing the memory of the effects
of diseases, immunization rates began to fall and diseases that were
effectively eliminated returned.

While you seem to want to paint anti-vaxxers as those simply having a bad
reaction, I beg to differ. Even if true, the tactics border on the truly
abhorrent [1].

Some people genuinely can't get vaccines. This is also why vaccination never
will be at 100% and why it's important that anyone who medically can get a
vaccine should as that herd immunity protects the vulnerable.

[1] [https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/19/health/anti-vax-harassment-
ep...](https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/19/health/anti-vax-harassment-
eprise/index.html)

~~~
DoreenMichele
_While you seem to want to paint anti-vaxxers as those simply having a bad
reaction_

No, and I'm not sure how to more clearly state that isn't my point.

Certainly at this point, it's a movement and there are latecomers who believe
in it without having been personally burned. But I spent some years on a forum
where active members were people trying to resolve serious health issues and
being dismissed by mainstream medicine as nutters in a way they found very
personally threatening because of their history.

Some of those people were very well educated and articulate. If you radicalize
a small group of persuasive people, it shouldn't be shocking when the result
is some kind of movement born of their efforts at self defense for survival
reasons.

------
anonu
This seems like a minor story that is being embellished and extrapolated out
to be something way crazier than both the headline and the content suggests...

One case of the measles prompts a company wide email... And now Google must
contend with the scale of such an outbreak.

------
tareqak
Here is the CDC's page for immunization schedules:
[https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/index.html](https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/index.html)
. They also have an adult vaccine assessment tool here:
[https://www2a.cdc.gov/nip/adultimmsched/](https://www2a.cdc.gov/nip/adultimmsched/)
.

------
drivingmenuts
I think I’m gonna talk to my doctor about getting immunized. I might have had
the shot when I was young but hell if I remember for sure.

~~~
BrissyCoder
Yeah do it. Even if you had the shot immunity wears off. Where I'm from they
gave out only 1 when I was young whereas the recommendation is now 2. There's
is absolutely no danger in having an extra shot if you can't find out how many
you had.

------
nothrabannosir
PSA for anyone living in the UK: the measles (+ mumps & rubella) vaccine is
100% free under the NHS, no questions asked. Call your GP and get an
appointment, easy as pie!

~~~
humanrebar
I'm sure cost is not a concern for Google employees though.

~~~
tareqak
Anything that removes friction in the decision-making process would result in
higher conversion.

------
ggm
I would expect _some_ of this has roots in anti-vaxx, but is it possible
_more_ of this vests in the increase in social mobility (between states,
between economies) and therefore the rise in out-of-herd contact risks?

~~~
dogma1138
Considering just how many people from outside of the US Google employes it's
quite possible that they simply came from a country that historically didn't
have a good vaccine coverage for example India.

Heck according to this data
[https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/sh.imm.meas](https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/sh.imm.meas)

In 1980 even Germany had 25% vaccination coverage but I'm guessing it could
include East Germany too so a developer in their mid 30's simply might not
been vaccinated at a young age and if they didn't travel to high risk
countries, joined the military or worked with at risk groups it was never
caught.

~~~
kupaka
The measles vaccine is required for a US immigrant visa
[https://www.uscis.gov/news/questions-and-
answers/vaccination...](https://www.uscis.gov/news/questions-and-
answers/vaccination-requirements)

~~~
dogma1138
Starting in 2009, you could’ve been born in Germany in the 80s which had poor
coverage at the time immigrated to the US in the late 90’s and you would not
be vaccinated.

------
massivecali
The outbreak on the east coast was from a large orthodox Jewish community, who
as I understand it, rejects vaccinations on religious grounds. Was the person
in this case from there or in contact with people from there?

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2019/04/16/how-
patient...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2019/04/16/how-patient-zero-
spread-measles-across-state-lines-infected-people/)

~~~
vladgur
there were NO religious grounds(confirmed by a number of religious leaders).
This was mostly due to anti-vaxx propaganda and closedness of the community

~~~
massivecali
So centered in specific religious community that has their own neighborhoods,
ambulances and police force and susceptible to outsider propaganda somehow?
But not in any way on religious grounds? What's the reasoning? Just because
religious leaders outside the community have different opinions doesn't
automatically mean 'no religious grounds'. It just means they see things
differently.

~~~
js2
Please see
[http://www.hakirah.org/Vol13Bush.pdf](http://www.hakirah.org/Vol13Bush.pdf)

There is no basis in Jewish law to object to vaccination.

~~~
massivecali
Sorry JIDF. Nothing you link disproves what is happening, or the source of the
outbreak.

------
DanFeldman
> In 2015, Wired reported that one daycare at Google had a 68% measles
> vaccination rate, although Google contested the accuracy of the article at
> the time.

~~~
kozikow
I don't think that it implies that many Googlers are antivaxxers.

MMR vaccine is given at 1 year, pre-school starts at 3 years. Making a rough
assumption of uniform age-distribution at daycares, it's expected that about
1/3 of babies won't be vaccinated against measles.

Edit: Linked article disproves this theory:
[https://www.wired.com/2015/02/tech-companies-and-
vaccines/](https://www.wired.com/2015/02/tech-companies-and-vaccines/) .
"According to the California DPH data, ..., At a nearby Google daycare, ...
Just 68 percent are up to date with their MMRs". ... "The California DPH
numbers only cover children between 2 and 5 years old"

~~~
OrgNet
Are you saying that 1/3 of kids at daycares are under 1 year-old?

~~~
kozikow
Definitely less than 1/3, as older kids are more likely to go to day-care, but
I couldn't find any data about age distribution at daycares...

------
mancerayder
_In 2015, Wired reported that one daycare at Google had a 68% measles
vaccination rate, although Google contested the accuracy of the article at the
time._

What a morass of foggy and unverified information, this online hive mind.

------
dolguldur
Is there any scientific literature on potential dangers of these standard
vaccines? Maybe newer findings?

I’m asking because this is such a polarizing topic that science-trusting
people could totally have developed a blind spot by now. I mean some anti-
vaxers are so crazy that you might become more pro vaccination than you’d
otherwise be and miss some of the truth.

~~~
wtallis
> Is there any scientific literature on potential dangers of these standard
> vaccines? Maybe newer findings?

> I’m asking because this is such a polarizing topic that science-trusting
> people could totally have developed a blind spot by now.

There are massive publicly-accessible databases of reported possible adverse
reactions to vaccines. You can easily download a spreadsheet listing every
reported instance of someone developing a runny nose or rash after receiving a
vaccine last year in the US. It is very reasonable to assume that the
reporting rate for more serious reactions is plenty high enough for any real
patterns to be quite noticeable from analyzing that data, at least for the
vaccines that are given to large portions of the public. There is no blind
spot when it comes to safety of the vaccines that have been recommended for
the general public; this is well monitored and the safety of something like
the MMR vaccine is supported by a mountain of data. Anyone questioning the
long-established safety of common vaccines needs to provide up-front an
analysis of VAERS data and a very good explanation for why they think that
data is inaccurate.

------
aassddffasdf
So, what's the big deal here? The only people affected should be those who
were too stupid to take the vaccine. The rest of us can rest easy and let
Darwin do his work.

~~~
lake99
Cancer patients, AIDS patients, organ recipients all have compromised immune
systems. They'd all be at risk because of irrational choices their colleagues
made.

~~~
randyrand
just a side note: Measles vaccine is given at 1-1.5 years of age.

Hopefully not too many babies have cancer, aids, and organ transplants.

~~~
lake99
Doesn't matter if they were previously immunized. A compromised immune system
can wipe out previous immunity.

~~~
briantakita
That begs the question, shouldn't we be more focused on promoting strong
immune systems?

"wiping out a previous immunity" doesn't sound like an immunity to me.

~~~
lake99
Nothing in medicine is as straightforward as that. Most cancer treatments end
up wiping out or suppressing many different kinds of cells, and a temporary
suppression of white blood cells is considered an acceptable side effect. AIDS
will have to be cured. A strong immune system often attacks donor organ cells,
so the immune system is intentionally weakened. We may eventually develop
solutions for all three issues, but I don't expect it to happen in our
lifetimes. Heck, I predict we'll be cloning body parts in labs to obviate the
need for anti-rejection meds long before we learn to fine-tune our immune
response.

~~~
briantakita
> Nothing in medicine is as straightforward as that

Which begs the question, why do we make an exception with vaccines? It seems
like vaccines are being presented as completely safe & completely effective by
some proponents.

You see nuance in this issue, but then, why are critics of vaccines silenced &
ridiculed? I thought "nothing in medicine is straightforward"...

~~~
lake99
I don't understand what you're asking. Vaccines are recommended because that's
_usually_ the best course of action. That doesn't mean that vaccines will work
100% of the time... if that's what you were asking. Safety...? We're not
talking about experimental vaccines whose safety is not well understood. If
you have specific allergies or specific medical conditions, I'm sure your
doctor would either recommend an alternative that does not have that allergen
or suggest some other course of action.

No doctor says "everyone should take all vaccines NOW". More info here:
[https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/should-not-
vacc.html](https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/should-not-vacc.html)

------
microcolonel
> _As Google fights criticism that it has let anti-vaccine disinformation
> flourish on its platform_

When you thought you were getting information about a measles outbreak, but
really you're being told that Google doesn't censor people enough.

This is a really slimy way to operate, and if BuzzFeed News didn't have enough
to be ashamed of themselves about lately, add this to the list.

------
bArray
I understand that people feel quite strongly about this subject, but rather
than mass flagging people who support/sympathize with anti-vaxxers, it would
be much more beneficial to reason with them. As this is a comments section and
not a news article, discussing these things is perfectly fine and does not
"platform" anti-vaxxers. To change peoples minds we must _win hearts and
minds_ , not alienate them.

With regards to making links between intelligence and anti-vaxxers (as some
here have), unless you have hard numbers then you too are just as susceptible
to drawing conclusions without strong facts to back it up. Some of the most
intelligent people can still act illogically, just look at the unfortunate
later years of Nikola Tesla [1].

> As Google fights criticism that it has let anti-vaccine disinformation

> flourish on its platform, [..]

Lastly, I don't like the phrasing of this article. There is zero evidence that
Google has in some way purposely allowed disinformation to spread. There's a
disgusting "serves them right" feel and I think that's really unfair. I am
sure Google has put in many resources to prevent disinformation and what
people see is what gets through the net.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla)

~~~
fake-name
The problem here is that you assume they're reasonable.

No one is antivaccine from a position of logic or science, because the
position is completely impossible to support with either.

Antivaccine beliefs are functionally very similar to religion.

~~~
yters
Such broad dismissal does not sound entirely reasonable either.

~~~
fake-name
I'll tell you what. You provide a decent science-based argument _for_
antivaccine beliefs that's not trivially falsifiable with 5 minutes of
research, and I'll change my mind.

~~~
bArray
Devil's advocate (not my actual position):

I don't want my child to risk getting measles, mumps, bruises, seizures or a
severe allergic reaction [1]. I believe the number of these cases to be under-
reported (not everybody goes to the doctor after getting ill) and the risk of
side effects from the MMR vaccine (treats measles) to be greater than the
benefits.

[1] [https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/mmr-side-
effects/](https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/mmr-side-effects/)

------
fzeroracer
I do wonder if we'll eventually get to the point where companies start either
firing or requiring mandatory vaccines in order to work there.

This would naturally be a fairly massive invasion of privacy, but does your
right to privacy and right to not vaccinate trump the right of the company to
protect their workers? Eventually it's going to come to a head and either
companies will force vaccinations or the government will.

~~~
arcticbull
I think the work case is the weakest possible. You're not owed a job, and
you're certainly not owed a specific job. The reality is that vaccinations
don't just affect you. They affect people who aren't physically capable of
being vaccinated (compromised immunity, allergy to vaccine, etc.). If you
bring the ratio down below the herd immunity threshold, you can spread serious
diseases to those not physically capable of being vaccinated and putting my
existing employees at risk.

If I, as an employer, am forced to decide between hiring you, an antivaxxer,
which risks killing even one of my existing employees, you're not getting the
job, period. I owe them a duty of care before you. And their families too. And
babies too young to immunize -- is it okay if they die?

This stems from a similar misunderstanding of liberty as the "freedom of
speech applies to Twitter" argument. The first amendment protects you from
legislation infringing on your free speech. It doesn't require private
companies to broadcast your speech at your sole discretion. The same would be
true of a hypothetical vaccination rule. Even if the government weren't able
to legislate in this regard, nothing precludes any private party from refusing
you food, a home or a job on the basis of your vaccination status. Being an
antivaxxer isn't a protected class to the best of my knowledge.

~~~
ghaff
Note that “anti-vaxxer” is probably a small subset of cant produce complete
vaccination records. I’m not sure how acceptable a mandatory doctors exam and
potentially booster shots would be to a lot of SV developers applying for a
job. I don’t personally have a problem and early in my career got rejected
from some jobs because of a small back problem. But can’t see it with the
typical FANG applicant.

~~~
arcticbull
No problem, if they don't have a record, they can take another shot. IMO
FAANGs are best suited, many have their own on-site clinics. If not, you can
in states like California, head down to Walgreens and get one on the house
without an appointment.

~~~
CydeWeys
I got an MMR booster shot at work last week at the clinic in the Google NYC
office. They also do annual flu shots using contracted out nurses (the clinic
is too small for that big of a rush in a single week).

None of this is mandatory though.

------
Myrmornis
Why have some journalists written an article about one person getting measles
out of a huge number of people working somewhere in California?

~~~
amatecha
I think "journalist" might be a bit generous in this case! haha

------
phendrenad2
How does one know if they're vaccinated or not? Who has a complete medical
transcript going back to their childhood? How do they even get the vaccination
rate data? I call BS.

~~~
krastanov
I am confused... Everyone I know has a complete vaccination transcript going
back to birth. I have passed through 3 different national systems (one of them
being the US, where the records are not kept at a national level), and all
these places have records up to the time I left them. I did not do anything
special for that - it was almost automatic, except for once when I had to pay
for a cheap language translation.

~~~
paulgb
Have you transferred doctors within the US? I think that's where the chain
breaks down, since as you mention there is no national system.

~~~
finaliteration
Not only that, but a lot of doctors only keep records for so long. We recently
had a measles outbreak in my area and I was trying to figure out if I had been
vaccinated or not. My childhood doctor had destroyed the records after ten
years and my parents had zero paperwork. I ended up just getting a round of
the vaccine to be safe.

------
fyoving
What kind of article is that? "Google causes measles and now one of them has
it".

Is that ironic? Is this journalism now?

~~~
wetpaws
I think this is a sad reminder that beliefs do not correlate with intelligence
and even smartest people are not immune from doing stupid stuff.

~~~
fyoving
We don't know how this person got infected or if they even work there so you
can't make that conclusion.

~~~
bArray
Exactly. There are reasons why one may not be immune:

1\. The vaccine failed to create immunization

2\. They were not vaccinated at some young age, but always assumed they were

The article seems to suggest that this person was an anti-vaxxer as opposed to
a casualty of anti-vaxxer ideology.

------
antoineMoPa
Silicon Valley company catches virus; calls McAfee & Norton for help without
success.

