
India heatwave temperatures pass 50 Celsius - lelf
https://phys.org/news/2019-06-india-heatwave-temperatures-celsius.html
======
Isinlor
These temperatures in high humidity can be deadly even to healthy and fit
humans as our bodies are left without a way to cool down. Currently, they have
humidity around 10-20% so it affects the most vulnerable, but global warming
may lead to making parts of the world literally deadly to every human being...

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet-
bulb_temperature](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet-bulb_temperature)

The wet-bulb temperature (WBT) is the temperature read by a thermometer
covered in water-soaked cloth (wet-bulb thermometer) over which air is passed.

Sustained wet-bulb temperature exceeding 35 °C (95 °F) is likely to be fatal
even to fit and healthy people, unclothed in the shade next to a fan; at this
temperature our bodies switch from shedding heat to the environment, to
gaining heat from it.[8] Thus 35 °C (95 °F) is the threshold beyond which the
body is no longer able to adequately cool itself. A study by NOAA from 2013
concluded that heat stress will reduce labor capacity considerably under
current emissions scenarios.[9]

A 2010 study concluded that under a worst-case scenario for global warming
with temperatures 12 °C (22 °F) higher than 2007, the wet-bulb temperature
limit for humans could be exceeded around much of the world in future
centuries.[10] A 2015 study concluded that parts of the globe could become
uninhabitable.[11] An example of the threshold at which the human body is no
longer able to cool itself and begins to overheat is a humidity level of 50%
and a high heat of 46 °C (115 °F), as this would indicate a wet-bulb
temperature of 35 °C (95 °F).

The 2015 Indian heat wave saw wet-bulb temperatures in Andhra Pradesh reach 30
°C (86 °F). A similar wet-bulb temperature was reached during the 1995 Chicago
heat wave.

~~~
jobigoud
> fatal even to fit and healthy people, unclothed in the shade next to a fan;

This is scary, what's a good way to survive for someone that doesn't have
access to a bunker or AC? Immersing oneself in water in a bathtub?

~~~
ajross
A tub will work, sure, as long as it's pulled from a large body of water that
hasn't warmed up with the air. Hopping in the local lake is an obvious choice.

But in a detached demographic sense: effectively everyone lives in a city in
the modern world, and while their housing might not be air conditioned most of
the major buildings are. In an emergency like this everyone would just crowd
into office buildings and shopping malls.

That's not to say this wouldn't be horrifying, but it's not the kind of
existential social crisis people tend to imagine. Cooling ourselves down in a
heat wave, in the modern world, is a solved problem at least as far as keeping
ourselves alive goes.

~~~
wongarsu
Every human is effectively a 100W space heater just from being alive. That
means you need at least 30W of air conditioning capacity per human to keep the
temperature constant (on top of what you need to counter heat from outside).

Unless these buildings are designed as emergency shelters for heat waves their
air conditioning systems won't be able to cope with all the people.

~~~
newnewpdro
I don't think it's that simple at all.

The principal human-appreciated effect of AC is the dehumidifying of the air
when it's cooled.

The dry interior air allows human perspiration to regulate temperature
effectively. The AC doesn't have to cool all the bodies, it just has to keep
the air dry enough.

~~~
the8472
Don't ACs dehumidify by condensing the water? If so then it means they need to
get rid of the heat of vaporization, the same amount of energy the humans shed
by evaporative cooling.

~~~
newnewpdro
In a closed system sure, but I'd expect a larger building to have significant
fresh-air return systems.

In a scenario where you've filled the place with people, the interior humidity
is going to exceed that of the exterior air and you'd just start dumping the
moisture outside exchanging with the fresh, dryer air. It's a comfort
regression sure, but not a everyone dies situation.

The survival of the people doesn't come down to the AC heat pump keeping up,
it comes down to supplying them enough water to drink and disposing of the
humidified air.

My point is just that it's the relative humidity that matters, and the AC
system has some options there. I've lived through a desert summer in a small
space without any AC at all. I'd just keep the windows closed as deep into the
day as possible riding out the night's cooling until the air gets too humid
indoors from sweat and respiration for the fan to have any cooling effect. At
that point I'd open the windows for relief. The air coming in was usually much
hotter than the interior air, since the space was well insulated and nights
get cool, but it didn't matter because it's very dry air and perspiration
resumes functioning. The situation is easily survived unless you run out of
water for your person.

Of course if the outdoor air is something like 100% humidity there's only the
heat pump option, but that simply doesn't happen in deserts when it's hot out.
It's a desert, not the tropics.

In the desert the relative humidity shoots up when it cools down, the humid
nights are the worst. But it's because they cooled down. Again, not a survival
problem since it's not _that_ hot, just uncomfortably muggy. One saving grace
with deserts is they don't generally have any mosquitoes, so these humid
nights can easily be spent outdoors without any annoyance.

~~~
wongarsu
> In a scenario where you've filled the place with people, the interior
> humidity is going to exceed that of the exterior air and you'd just start
> dumping the moisture outside exchanging with the fresh, dryer air. It's a
> comfort regression sure, but not a everyone dies situation.

That's equivalent to opening a window without the AC doing anything. If that
would work we wouldn't be in a "crowd everyone into a shopping center" type
situation, the people would be just fine outside in the shade.

> It's a desert, not the tropics.

While half of India is in the tropics, this part indeed isn't. But next month
the monsoon will put humidity at approximately 100% [1].

1: [https://en.climate-data.org/asia/india/delhi/new-
delhi-30/](https://en.climate-data.org/asia/india/delhi/new-delhi-30/)

~~~
newnewpdro
> That's equivalent to opening a window without the AC doing anything.

Even when the air temperature at your fresh air intake is cooler than the air
at your condensor coil? Wouldn't we assume no system would draw its fresh air
from near the condensor coil?

You still have a heat pump in the system, and there's a temperature difference
between the air inlet and the pump outlet.

------
enitihas
I think humidity is a big problem in a lot of places in India with high
temperature. In my village in easter UP in India, summer was intolerable
because of high humidity and shortage of electricity. (We used to have 8hours
electricity per day, but sometimes outages would happen and would go
unrepaired for week to month). It was impossible to do anything but take a
hand fan and use it to cool yourself. A lot of the time thus went wasted in
doing this completely un productive work.

Now that I live in a place with somewhat better weather and 24x7 electricity,
I feel what a privilege it is. It pains me to see a large fraction of humanity
has to spend a large portion of their time using a hand fan for survival.

~~~
aq3cn
Now days, you can get 24x7 electricity in tier 1, 2 & 3 cities. I am not sure
about villages. Our country is almost power surplus nation now.

~~~
eklavya
That’s hard to believe, there are still power cuts (even if for 1-2 hours max)
in summers.

~~~
SJetKaran
Depends on the particular states. Some states have the necessary economic
resources to buy power at peak hours when necessary.

------
yantrams
This has been the case almost every year this decade in India.

Also, it is quite common for the government departments to fudge data and
report temperatures > 50 Celsius as 49.x to avoid halting work / paying extra
to those working under the Sun because there are regulations concerning this.

Edit: I got to know about this practice being rampant through an activist in
the South who is well versed with the labour laws.

~~~
nonamechicken
I am not sure if this is true. This is from my state (which is in South India)
this year (March-April) when the temperature was in the 35-40 degrees range.
Highest recorded was 42 degrees I think in a border district. I don't think
South India crosses 40 most of the time. One place reached 47 in 2016 [3].

>With mercury levels in Kerala rising this summer, the state’s Labour
Department has issued an order allowing mandatory break time for labourers to
avoid sunstroke. All labourers in the state who are exposed to sunlight which
could potentially lead to a sunstroke have been ordered to rest indoors
between 12 pm and 3 pm during the summer months.

>“Those working in the morning shift will get a break from 12 pm to 3 pm.
Their work timings have been fixed at 8 hours from 7 in the morning to 7 in
the evening. For the other shifts which begin after morning and post noon will
be rescheduled to end before 12 pm and begin after 3 pm,” read the order.

>In 2018 too, the State Labour Department had issued a similar order to
reschedule the shift timings of labourers during the months of February and
April to avoid exposure to heat from 12 pm to 3 pm. [1]

[1] [https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/kerala-govt-orders-
man...](https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/kerala-govt-orders-mandatory-
break-time-labourers-avoid-sun-stroke-97548)

[2]
[https://english.manoramaonline.com/districts/thiruvananthapu...](https://english.manoramaonline.com/districts/thiruvananthapuram/2019/03/28/labour-
department-crack-down-hotels-staff-heat-wave.html)

[3] [https://www.indiatoday.in/education-today/gk-current-
affairs...](https://www.indiatoday.in/education-today/gk-current-
affairs/story/hottest-places-in-india-320941-2016-05-19)

~~~
sateesh
There are many places in South India where the temperature crosses 40 and
above during months of Apr-May. For example see temperatures at these places
in Karnataka, and AP.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raichur](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raichur)
(avg. temperature of 45.0 C in May)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurnool](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurnool)
(avg. temperature of 46.5 C in May)

------
jessriedel
The 50 C number was observed in a desert. Death Valley, California, also a
desert, spend 5 consecutive days above 54 C in 1913, the year it set the
temperature record of 56.7 C.

~~~
hedora
For people that don’t know, Death Valley’s name is no exaggeration, even in
modern times.

Going outside there even for short periods of time is extremely dangerous for
some fraction of each year.

They shut the park down when this happens.

A few years ago, some tourists that didn’t heed the warning ended up dead
after rental van overheated.

I don’t see how the populated areas already hitting comparable temperatures
will be habitable at all in ten years.

~~~
marktangotango
I was at NTC (south of Death Valley in the Mohave) one summer when the temp
was 125-130F for a week. We were in the box the entire time. We used ice
filled camel backs, sucking water all day (and rarely urinating) First sgt
would bring out pallets of bagged ice that would be half melted by the time
they got to us. As a side note; 125 feels cool after spending all day in, and
then climbing out if a M1A1! Really odd thing was shivering at night when the
temp dropped to 85-90. And urinating all day when it was only 100, but you
were still drinking like it was 130.

~~~
sizzle
This is an incredible story. Do they regularly operate out there in these
extreme conditions?

How did you keep your electrolytes balanced drinking all that water?

~~~
marktangotango
Irrc they did give us stuff to mix with the water; MREs generally have
something as well. A lot of us didn’t use it due to fouling your camel back
and canteens. I used to eat the salt packet for example (salt and pepper
condiment pack). And yes they did this all the time; all through summer and
winter; weather is not a deterrent; train how you fight, fight how you train
is how the motto goes.

------
caymanjim
This sounds shocking to a lot of people, but it's not new or unexpected, and
it's not even that uncomfortable if you have shade and water. I don't mean to
downplay the risk to those who don't have shade or water, or who have to work
exposed, but it's not as scary as you might think.

I lived in Tempe, AZ for years, and summer temperatures would regularly be
over 45C/113F. I walked or biked four miles to work in that. There were a few
days when it hit 50C/122F, and while you didn't want to be exposed to the sun
for long, it was tolerable. Low humidity makes a huge difference in what you
can put up with.

~~~
awakeasleep
You're missing the effect of humidity.

Our bodies rely on evaporative cooling to reduce heat, which is why we sweat
and why you need water.

When humidity is above 50% evaporative cooling stops working, so temperatures
slightly above our body temperature become lethal.

~~~
caymanjim
Rajasthan is a desert. The city mentioned in the article, Churu, currently has
a humidity of 11%. I mentioned Tempe because it's nearly an identical climate.
I've spent time in Ajmer, India, which is pretty close to Churu. It was only
about 45C/113F when I was there.

Obviously this is all anecdotal, but my anecdote here isn't off base.

~~~
z3phyr
Its absolutely not localized to Rajasthan. Almost the whole of north india is
under a heat wave. And we recorded 37% humidity today in Delhi (The capital)
with 47 C temprature and hot winds.

~~~
caymanjim
I went back to the article and realized I lazily skimmed after the beginning.
Delhi and other areas are much more oppressively humid. Mumbai is stifling
even when it's "only" 35C. Most of Rajastan is pretty comfortable even well
into the 40s though.

------
fiblye
In dry climates with such hot temperatures, staying hydrated and sweating will
keep you cool (or rather, keep you cool enough to not die).

What happens when temperatures like these are reached in high humidity zones
where sweat just sticks? Will we simply have entire communities that lack air
conditioning dying off?

~~~
Tepix
They will turn into refugees. That's part of why we expect hundreds of
millions of climate refugees in the coming decades.

~~~
noir_lord
Yep I think mass migration is inevitable.

Given the absolute mess migration was out of Syria into Europe (and that was
comparatively minor) I think it's going to be unpleasant.

Once it starts it'll snowball as well instead of an orderly evacuation it'll
be pell-mell.

Sometimes think it would be nice to have a single rational world government so
that we could deal with these things on a species level.

Of course if we had a single rational world government for any length of time
we wouldn't be _in_ this mess.

~~~
gingabriska
Can anyone guess where will the first wave of climate change refugees will be
from and where they'll be heading too?

~~~
hedora
Climate change refugees are already common.

For instance, climate change played some role in the current Venezuelan
refugee crisis (the one that has Trump separating families and housing people
in camps under overpasses, or bussing them to sanctuary cities).

Today, the main problem is that their government started to collapse in 2017,
so they are unable to supply food to their population.

Why did the government start to collapse? Well, they have seen lower crop
yields in recent years, which means more food imports, which means they are
more vulnerable to embargoes, etc.

It only has data to 2016, but this site shows across the board agricultural
production collapses in 2015 and 2016.

[https://www.ceicdata.com/en/venezuela/agricultural-
productio...](https://www.ceicdata.com/en/venezuela/agricultural-production-
and-consumption)

The government went into disarray in 2017.

In 2018 (and maybe earlier; tldr) US sanctions cut off oil revenue. The
sanctions are due to terrorism, corruption, human trafficking, and human
rights violations, which are, again symptoms of a collapsing government:

[https://fas.org/sgp/crs/row/IF10715.pdf](https://fas.org/sgp/crs/row/IF10715.pdf)

You may also remember tortilla riots a few years back when the price of corn
spiked. That probably led to some migration.

Arguably, and famines that led to refugees in the last 10-20 years are due to
climate change.

The issue is that we’re at a tipping point where they will become more common.

~~~
noir_lord
Not sure why you got downvote for an argument made with data sources but I
gave you an upvote anyway.

Spirited debate is the best thing about this place.

------
piyushpr134
Well before you guys start doomsday predictions, let me tell you that Churu is
in Rajasthan which is in Thar desert. Temperatures like this, even though very
high and uncomfortable, are not unheard of.

We are in midst of a very hot summer but it is not something out of ordinary
and yearly cycle (we don't love our summers). We are eagerly awaiting monsoon
to arrive in India (early june is when it hits our shores). After rains
arrive, we expect our dams to fill and possible water scarcity to end

~~~
wongarsu
> We are in midst of a very hot summer

That's the problem. No matter what you think about climate change, summers are
undeniably getting hotter. This might not be a doomsday, but it's something
that will become more common and eventually will affect more populated areas.

~~~
piyushpr134
That I agree with you.

And I believe that climate change is real. Definitely summers are getting
hotter, and winters are getting colder and extreme weather events more
frequent. Just that it is not yet a doomsday scenario

------
fouc
That's 122 F in americanese.

~~~
yakubin
And 323.15 Kelvin, and 581.67 Rankine.

~~~
narnianal
Why did nobody add the Vulkan or Klingon measurements yet?

------
AFascistWorld
Imagine the ever-growing demand for ACs and the ever-decreasing amount of
water.

Luckily for India, it has a long shoreline.

------
amai
Iran can top this easily:

"the temperature was 53.7 degrees Celsius, which is 128.7 degrees Fahrenheit"

[https://eu.usatoday.com/story/weather/2017/06/29/129-degrees...](https://eu.usatoday.com/story/weather/2017/06/29/129-degrees-
iran-earths-hottest-temperature-ever-recorded/440644001/)

The
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_index](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_index),
which also takes humidity into account, hit an incredible 142 degrees.

------
perfunctory
A slightly redacted version of my earlier post.

Dear HN crowd, it might not feel like it but we are quite influential. We are
rich and therefore have a non-negligible command over economy. Silicon Valley
is cool and people look up to us (do they? I don't really know, but wasn't
Steve Jobs a national hero?) and may follow our example.

Please, take the lead. Here are a few things an hornorable member of the HN
community can do

\- Stop flying to conferences. Go to a local meetup. It's fun. And cheaper. If
you really need to get out of town, take a train. Don't think about it as not
flying for the rest of your life. Rather, can we declare a moratorium on
conferences for like three years? Let's hope by then Prometheus will give us
carbon-neutral jet fuel
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19842240](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19842240)

\- Shift your investments from fossil to green. If you can't find enough
worthy greens, shift it to anything else. Some say it won't impact your
returns [http://www.lse.ac.uk/GranthamInstitute/news/the-mythical-
per...](http://www.lse.ac.uk/GranthamInstitute/news/the-mythical-per..). Move
your deposits and savings to a more sustainable bank. This might be one of the
most underappreciated yet simple and powerful tools
[https://fairfinanceguide.org](https://fairfinanceguide.org)

\- Work less. Work part time, and part of that part time remotely. Reduce your
commute. If your boss won't let you, find a job that will. In the current job
market you can negotiate almost anything, and remote work must be the easiest
thing to negotiate. [http://cepr.net/documents/publications/climate-change-
worksh...](http://cepr.net/documents/publications/climate-change-worksh..). A
firm lets its employees work four days a week while being paid for five.
Everyone is happy, lower electricity bills, fewer cars on the road
[https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/19/world/asia/four-day-
workw...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/19/world/asia/four-day-workw..).

\- Reduce your meat consumption as much as you can. I noticed that this one is
quite controversial but I am mentioning it anyway. It's fine to not go fully
vegan, but make meat a special treat, something you are looking forward to,
not an everyday snack. They say these new vega burgers are not too bad.
[https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/04/30/dining/climat...](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/04/30/dining/climat..).

~~~
mayankkaizen
India has population of over 1.2 billion people. And major part of this
population is vegetarian (at least in the sense that they don't eat meat on
daily basis twice a day).

What if India were meat consuming nation just like US?

~~~
wtdata
India is the country with biggest population density in the planet (barring
some micro nation), why does everyone keep giving India a pass for having
absolutely no regard for sustainability and keep exploding their population by
having way more children than those they could actually provide with a good
life (if not environmentaly, at least economically) ?

Should we really expect the same level of life for the children of couples
that had 2 children and were able to properly provide for then, and for
children of couples that had 6 children when they couldn't even provide
properly for 2?

------
z3phyr
I just recovered from a stroke in my own locality. Drink water every 15
minutes guys. It is very painful if you don't and a dreadful time.

------
marvel_boy
It is normal?

~~~
factorialboy
Yes

~~~
albertzeyer
If this is normal, then you imply that the article linked by inflatableDodo is
wrong?

Btw, I was kind of impressed, when visiting India and speaking to a few
locals, that they don't see climate change to be a real thing, or at least to
be such a big problem, and much overrated. The claim was basically that it was
always very warm, and it is just normal that way, and they don't expect it to
become much warmer. I'm not sure if that is just anecdotal or if that is the
major opinion by locals.

~~~
shripadk
It is just anecdotal as opinions in India change every few kilometres.

However, the Indian Government has made its stance clear on Climate Change:
[https://www.undp.org/content/dam/india/docs/undp_climate_cha...](https://www.undp.org/content/dam/india/docs/undp_climate_change.pdf)

and: [https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-
natio...](https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/view-
will-modi-spur-global-inaction-into-action-on-climate-
change/articleshow/69609716.cms)

> The claim was basically that it was always very warm, and it is just normal
> that way, and they don't expect it to become much warmer

I think they might have misunderstood you. They might have thought you are
talking about weather and not climate change. Human body may not notice slight
changes in temperature but the ecosystem does. For instance, those locals you
spoke to may not have personally experienced any change but if you had instead
asked them about droughts, drying of wells or yield of crops they would have
definitely given you a totally different reply.

~~~
vram22
>It is just anecdotal as opinions in India change every few kilometres.

And every ten meters, when asking for directions, ha ha :)

And the best part is that some of them, if asked "where is so-and-so place"
(hotel / restaurant / bus station / etc.), will dramatically raise their arm,
point "that-a-way", and say "tum XYZ chowk ko cross karke seeeedddddhaaaayyy
jao" (you cross XYZ square and go sttttrrrraaaiiiiggggghhhhhhhtttt) - without
mentioning in which direction to straight from the square ...

Always good for a few giggles (apart from the frustration).

Indian here.

------
narnianal
flagged for lack of cookie policy

why is it bad to state the reason for flagging something? alright, then I
don't explain it in the future. np.

