
China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for Everything - dcgudeman
http://www.wsj.com/articles/chinas-new-tool-for-social-control-a-credit-rating-for-everything-1480351590
======
brilliantcode
I'm not sure about this. It's going to be so disastrous, reminiscent of
Cultural Revolution in some spiritual form, to try to force human nature into
quantifiable scoring system that relies on subjective truth that is determined
by a central government.

Then again this is China, people have no way of speaking out against their
government without risking their lives, and the government has no obligation
other than maintaining their power over the population.

I almost feel as if Xi is losing his grip on the population by introducing
drastic internal policies like this that only names goals that appear to
benefit the greater good but almost certainly driving his own agenda, even if
it earns the ire of his surrounding peers.

A foreign policy analysis of Xi's external facing policies are almost
certainly always to further his internal grip which explains the bizarre &
seemingly counter-productive positions he took against North Korea and South
China Sea, that further drove neighbouring countries to America's arms....but
with strange turn of events it seems that they will be undone from Trump's
camp, much to the delight of Putin & Xi.

Time will tell, but it's doubtful we will have anything but a government
mouthpiece statician announcing the success of such policies.

It's tough to know the real truth in societies where it is actively suppressed
and manipulated by a single central entity. It's also difficult to say how
long such systems will last without continuously taking on more risky and
expensive internal policies that lags behind changing technology that
disseminates information.

but what's that saying? The person wielding the biggest stick in the room is
the source of truth implying force is always the lowest common denominator in
human societies. Afterall, America wouldn't be where it is today without its
14 nuclear powered floating airports with the most advanced weapon
technologies that casts a shadow on any port it chooses to refuel in.

~~~
nabla9
Credit scores have existed long time in the West. This just extends the idea.
I live in country where positive credit scores are not allowed and I think US
type credit score is creepy, but people used to it seem not to care.

My fear is that it works all too well, especially in Chinese society.

~~~
brilliantcode
Credit score is based on financial and measurable context.

Giving people brownie points for "being nice" or "not shitting in the streets"
seems like a different ball game.

~~~
gph
Not to mention it's mostly been recently that people/companies have started
using Credit Scores outside the context of applying for a loan.

And IMO they should stop using it outside that context. People shouldn't have
to worry about whether they can find a job or apartment based on having poor
credit. Turns it into a game that everyone is forced to play instead of a
simple metric that financial institutions can use to determine your credit-
worthiness.

I've never had bad credit, but when I started working office jobs I actually
went out and got a credit card I didn't need just so I could use it a few
times and pay it off in full at the end of each month. Completely worthless
process that I had to involve myself in simply to build my credit up. What a
joke.

~~~
headcanon
Credit score for an apartment seems reasonable, though - you're paying a non-
trivial amount of money per month, and apartments want to minimize evictions -
they just want to know if you can pay. I've been in a situation where my
credit score was bad, but I provided an offer letter for my new job (which
indicated that my future situation won't be like my past) and it was fine.

Where I can see it failing is for people who live "outside" the system - I
have a friend who refuses to uses banks and deals only in cash and ancient
coins - he can't find an above-the-board place to live because of his lack of
credit score. But with that said, he does have a high risk of not being able
to make rent on time, so its difficult to say what the policy should be.

As for finding a job, I don't know of any instance where a poor credit score
would prevent you from getting a job, other than getting a security clearance,
but that also seems reasonable since the government wants to know if you have
any blackmail-able "money troubles" that an enemy actor can take advantage of.

~~~
weerd
The problem I've had is that there is effectively no difference between bad
credit and no credit. It is entirely possible to be a financially responsible
person (who exists in the "system" with a bank account) and still be denied
housing. This forces people to get credit cards.

~~~
avn2109
>> "This forces people to get credit cards."

That's the point. They designed the system of incentives and constraints to
make you their customer.

------
Animats
China has had similar systems for decades. The dang’an record books on
employee behavior were kept by big state employers. But that system didn't
hold up well as more private employers appeared. Now it's being brought up to
date.

The US has something like this for travel, where the lowest tier is being on
the "do not fly" list, and having a Global Entry card, which requires "extreme
vetting", moves you to a higher tier where you can bypass some security lines.

~~~
hackuser
> China has had similar systems for decades. The dang’an record books on
> employee behavior ...

Under the Communists China also has had (and maybe still does?) city block-
level surveillance by neighbors of residential behavior.

> The US has something like this ...

The false equivalency comes up too much. I wrote some code in a couple hours
the other day that is "something like" the Linux kernel, in that they are both
code, both read from the network and output to the monitor, and both have bugs
which will never be fixed. But if I want to communicate to others an accurate
comparison of the two code bases, mentioning those similarities is misleading.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Communist China still has residential officers, but only in older complexes (I
don't think we had one in my newish complex, but I definitely heard about them
in more traditional Beijing apartment complexes).

------
mattnewton
For people who haven't seen it, I highly recommend the black mirror episode
"Nosedive" for an exploration of what this could do to a society even in the
absence of government control.

~~~
shostack
Haven't seen "Nosedive" yet but just saw White Christmas. While we don't have
the wetware enhancements for that yet, it did give a chilling look at how
society would react if you had an AR overlay that somehow classified people as
"undesirable." This was really highlighted at the end when he walks into the
busy market and shows up as red to people.

While I have reservations about governments using a system like this as it
is...you get into some fascinating and terrifying scenarios when you enable
public access to this sort of thing. Imagine being added to some list because
of an error, and then having the entire public viewing you and just assuming
you are a bad person because you are on that list without giving you the
chance to do anything about it or perhaps even know they are aware of that.

As a more tangible example, imagine if something like the infamous Lulu app
(that lets women rate and apply tags to men they've dated and only lets other
women see the ratings...kind of like an exclusive Yelp for men) was combined
with ubiquitous AR. Now imagine you had a falling out with an ex and you're
trying to start dating again. You now have to deal with all of the
(potentially quite false) assumptions someone you might be interested in is
making about you based on how your ex rated you in addition to whatever other
assumptions they would normally make without it.

And odds are you'd never even know they made their decision before you even
saw them because they previously scanned the room with a rating filter like
Amazon and only care about people above their threshold. We worry now about
the impact of filter bubbles with things like Facebook. Now think about having
them applied to people you interact with in your day-to-day.

~~~
nibs
This already exists. My parents own a bar and were pitched a technology that
would instantly screen problem patrons from a cloud-based data store. Further
it can "remember" problem patrons if you flag them on your internal cameras
and then use that to prevent them from entering in the future. It currently
has many customers in the US.

~~~
shostack
Whats this called? Are there any checks and balances against it? Like, would
someone ever know they were in this system or have recourse to see their data
and challenge it?

I could totally picture insurance companies being all over something like
this, and it is really scary to think about the lack of transparency and how
you'll never know if you are in one of those databases.

~~~
nibs
PatronScan[1], no, no. [https://www.patronscan.com/id-scanner-for-
bars/](https://www.patronscan.com/id-scanner-for-bars/)

~~~
deathanatos
> _The age of the patron is displayed for every scan, and the ID scanner
> operator can be alerted if the patron exceeds the minimum or_ maximum _age
> set by management._

The _maximum_ age.

> _If patrons break the rules, then ban them from every venue using PatronScan
> in North America._

> _The Banned Patrons List is shared with every other venue using PatronScan_

> _PatronScan ID scanners give you live stats about […], the gender
> distribution, and the average age [of patrons]._

Wow. Just … wow.

~~~
morgante
What exactly is so disturbing about a company digitizing what bouncers have
been doing for decades?

~~~
mattnewton
Bouncers don't typically work for multiple clubs, you can't hack into their
brains, they have imperfect memory, etc

This is like asking, what's wrong with state owned security cameras on the
streets? It's digitizing what bystanders have been doing for centuries.

~~~
morgante
Well, I don't see any problem with state owned security cameras.

~~~
type0
> state owned security cameras

There is a difference between security cameras and surveillance cameras.
Surveillance cams are broadcasted somewhere else (maybe even over internet)
and stored and reviewed. Security cameras - are for security incidents and
shouldn't be broadcasted or footage stored longer than necessary (matter of
hours or days depending on location).

Too bad often times these state owned security cameras are actually
surveillance cams disguised as innocuous things which they aren't. There is
this Will Smith movie "Enemy of the State", it's fiction but our dystopic
society is becoming ever more scary.

------
eiji
This could show or open up some possible alternatives to the current monetary
system. You have to see money as providing the same function today in our
society. Not your credit score and whatnot. Those are derived from it.

Money is what forces humans today into a quantifiable scoring system. On one
side is doom but it is worth thinking about that the other side could provide.
"Today you have been credited 400 points for helping 100 elderly over the
street, driving 50 disabled people to the doctor and returning 20 lbs of
unused food". Then you don't have a monetary system pricing your actions, but
you have central control over what gets priced in what way. Sounds familiar, I
know. But just because none of us can imagine anything but money to fulfill
this allocation function, does not mean that other thinkers are hard at work.
Surely this is far away from western individualism, but not every country has
bought into that. China is surely investigating it's options long term to opt
out of various constraints imposed upon by global power systems, one of which
is the global banking and monetary system.

~~~
ldp01
How would your example differ from a government simply putting a price on
various tasks (helping elderly, etc) and paying with regular money?

I'm not saying it's a bad idea (I actually like it!), but conceptually it
seems no different to the current monetary system, just with governments
taking a more inventive approach to paying for public services.

------
jwtadvice
Coverage of China's Credit and Scoring System is described by those covering
it, like CNN ([http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/27/opinions/china-social-
credit-s...](http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/27/opinions/china-social-credit-score-
creemers/)), as:

"In that sense, perhaps the most shocking element of the story is not the
Chinese government’s agenda, but how similar it is to the path technology is
taking elsewhere."

This is because, for example, surveillance of social media posts have been an
input to credit scores in countries like the United States for some time.
([https://www.thenation.com/article/how-companies-turn-your-
fa...](https://www.thenation.com/article/how-companies-turn-your-facebook-
activity-credit-score/))

In the United States, further, social media post and social relationship
information is used across America to calculate real time police "threat
scores", predictive crime measurements that are applied to prioritize law
enforcement and surveillance efforts.
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/the-
new-w...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/the-new-way-
police-are-surveilling-you-calculating-your-threat-
score/2016/01/10/e42bccac-8e15-11e5-baf4-bdf37355da0c_story.html)

China unfortunately is not unique in this landscape of social gamification -
the kind espoused by the Bush and Obama Administrations - perhaps most
perfectly represented by the legal justifications and arguments by Washington
insiders in the intellectual orbit of Cass Sunstein.

~~~
slededit
That article seems to strongly imply that social media is a factor in your
credit score but never actually proves it. After meandering on a story about
targeted marketing via social media we get back to a history of credit scores
yet no connection is ever made.

At best its thesis seems to be "these things are similar!" yet the headline
and the intro is very misleading. Guilt by association is not a fair argument.

FICO using social media as a factor in its score would be extremely
interesting were it true.

------
htaunay
When Extra Credits "Propaganda Games" video came out about a year ago[1], I
was relived when I read that "Sesame Credit" was a complete fabrication, and
even questioned EC for posting such a video without source checking.

Apparently is wasn't _completely_ fabricated after all.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHcTKWiZ8sI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHcTKWiZ8sI)

~~~
shaobo
It is not fabricated, it just wasn't accurately reported.

Every article I read described it as a government system already implemented
and measuring every aspect of your life, when it was actually a scheme created
by a private company within their ecosystem and most people used it for
showing off.

The government proposed system is still in pilot stage.

[https://www.techinasia.com/china-citizen-scores-credit-
syste...](https://www.techinasia.com/china-citizen-scores-credit-system-
orwellian)

~~~
westiseast
Yeah, your answer should be pinned at the top. Most discussions going on here
are without a real understanding of what's actually happening.

I have a Sesame credit score. It's pretty low. The whole system seems
incredibly creepy though, even without the misreported government political
intrusion aspects. I basically have to let a private company know all the
details of my education, work and personal life (plus they have my entire
purchasing history on Taobao, which covers most aspects of my life), and then
they'll give me a score. I totally understand the need for a credit score in
the context of giving loans, but the threat is always that this score then
gets applied to other arenas as a generalized trustworthiness rating.

------
pavlov
The Chinese leaders love talking about "harmony" as a social goal. In that
spirit, these could be called "Harmony Points", or simply HP.

 _You gained 17 HP yesterday. You 've just leveled up! Report to your
neighborhood party representative for your complimentary face massage kit.
[Share on Weibo] [Share on WeChat]_

~~~
seanmcdirmid
HP sounds better than the older Sesame points. Though it conflicts with hit
points.

------
FrancoDiaz
Like clockwork for every story just like this...

 _China has had similar systems for decades_ .... _The US has something like
this for travel_

and

 _How different is this from our current credit system through FICO scores?_

Sorry, that technique doesn't work. Come up with something new.

------
Havoc
This strikes me as thoroughly oppressive.

Its a bit like the American credit system in that it can kick people in the
balls...except its more arbitrary, outside of the persons control and very
vulnerable to abuse.

------
thewhitetulip
This is very dangerous. Things like this make me glad that I live in a
democracy, although people in power can some times get away by doing stuff,
they ultimately have to agree to the popular demands (this is also why certain
dictators are overthrown by popular demand by a very big uprising, but it then
disrupts the working of the country for a long time, works quicker in
democracies since leaders have to listen to get elected next time)

------
partycoder
Doesn't sound bad, but when one of the factors used to calculate your credit
rating is your degree political alignment, it is bad.

That combined with mass surveillance, censorship, and the fact that the
People's Liberation Army serves the communist party and not the Chinese people
gives them total control over the population.

------
jlisam13
How different is this from our current credit system through FICO scores?

~~~
tn13
FICO is by private companies to measure your financial discipline if you want
to borrow from them. You can continue to exist without opting in into FICO.

China's score is by government and it determines your mere existence. May be
you end up in jail if the score goes below something. Also it is not about
finances but about your opinions.

~~~
vkou
> You can continue to exist without opting in into FICO.

Only in theory.

For one thing, you don't opt into FICO - the company I transact with chooses
to share my information with FICO, without giving me any choice on the matter.

The only way you can opt out of FICO is if you never use the financial system,
not have a job, or a place to live. Unless you're an animal, or an
undiscovered cave hermit, good luck.

> May be you end up in jail if the score goes below something.

Citation needed.

~~~
tn13
> Only in theory.

Not really. For example you can create a startup that might help banks find
dependable borrowers more effectively than FICO and you can totally decimate
FICO.

When I arrived in this country and wanted to borrow to buy a car I did not
have a FICO score but I had a very good job. I borrowed outside the
conventional banking system with a little higher APR.

FICO is like cellphones or email that has won and become common because it is
the best alternative than everything else. One can certainly refuse to use
cellphones but then that life would be highly inconvenient indicating how much
value cellphones have brought to our life. FICO similarly has brought a lot of
value to our lives so much that living without it is highly inconvenient.

BTW living without FICO is simpler and pretty much common thing in USA. How do
you think illegal immigrants, students, H4 dependents etc. do financial
transactions ?

~~~
vkou
> How do you think illegal immigrants, students, H4 dependents etc. do
> financial transactions ?

I don't know about illegal immigrants, but anyone in the US on a valid visa
can walk into a bank, show a teller their passport, and open an account.

Also, most of us aren't so blessed as to have a landlord (Dorm housing) that
will forego a credit background check.

~~~
tn13
Except that the person will have to sign a reason why he/she does not have a
SSN and agree to provide it with N days. After that the FICO can track you.

------
analog31
Don't we already have this? A prospective employer can look up everything
about you, and form a composite score on their own if they want to. China is
late to the game.

------
type0
Now that Facebook is coming to China, maybe they will integrate it in their
chinese version. Then other countries soon also could be granted to receive
such a feature.

------
nevster
This puts me in mind of Whuffie

------
emblem21
We will materialize our filter bubbles and you will call it equality.

------
omarforgotpwd
This was an episode in the latest season of black mirror

------
chunhuoxidada1
Welcome to 1984!

~~~
imagetcha
Aldus Huxley portrayed something that scares me to death of actually
happening... yet every day I see us coming closer and closer to its fruition.
Strong teller...or fortune teller? Lol that is the question.

