
"Journey to Justinia" – how I got my 5-year-old son to sit still for 5 hours - Bockit
http://justy.me/justy/2013/8/18/journey-to-justinnia-or-how-i-got-my-5-yo-son-to-sit-still-and-concentrate-for-almost-5-hours
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lifeformed
Oh gosh, I used to do stuff like this as a kid. I only needed a piece of paper
and pencil though, no other tools. I would draw an adventure puzzle like this,
but the big thing was it used BOTH sides of the paper. When you went through a
door, you went to the other side of the paper (you'd have to bend the paper
around your finger a little bit to estimate where the door led to).

Also, there were many locks and keys and items (think Zelda). A door might
have a strange symbol on it, and you needed to find the key with the
corresponding symbol to advance. Or you needed to get the lava suit to get
past the pit of lava.

This is what I did during class in elementary school, and challenged my
friends and brother to beat them. Now that I'm 26, I still do the same thing,
but with computers and in 3D.

~~~
vehementi
Totally did this too, though without the innovation of using two sides of the
paper. I'd draw mazes with monsters and stuff on grid paper, and use a piece
of paper with hole cut in it to implement the player's vision (can only see 5
squares around etc.) Good times...

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ArekDymalski
Thanks for the inspiration. My son will love the "player's vision" concept.

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pg
This is a subtle example of the advantages of the Internet. When people made
things like this in 1980, you'd never even hear about it.

~~~
corin_
Many people would argue that the flip side of this is that less people would
make things like this now that the internet offers so much more, easier time-
consuming.

~~~
pg
I'm one of them. It is definitely a double-edged sword.

~~~
simonebrunozzi
Worth a PG essay, for sure.

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jasonjei
These days not being able to sit still is considered a medical problem, when
the truth is that it's just boys being boys. In fact, probably those who are
bored more easily are engaged at the difficult to solve problems and games.
When I was a kid, I was told my attention span was short and that I had ADD,
but in truth it was that I was bored. Given a difficult programming problem,
for example, such as learning Win32 for example, I could spend hours working
on it because it became a puzzle. Kids that think creatively are probably
easily bored by conventional attention getters. They like solving problems.

~~~
ericabiz
Actually, girls can have ADHD too (I should know--I am one, and I've been
diagnosed.) Also, as someone who's been diagnosed with ADHD, saying "boys
being boys" is not only untrue, but also dismissive of what IS actually a
medical problem for some of us.

I wrote a blog post about ADHD called "Why I Feel Like A Failure, Even Though
On the Outside, I'm A Success..." I think it might resonate with many here:
([http://www.erica.biz/2012/failure-
success/](http://www.erica.biz/2012/failure-success/))

I would ask that you please not be dismissive or stereotypical of what is a
real medical issue that some of us have had to deal with our entire lives.

~~~
pekk
The point about boys isn't that girls cannot have ADHD, but that boys
specifically are over-diagnosed (and medicated with powerful substances) for
behavior which is merely typical of their age or gender or both. Children are
supposed to explore and get excited. They are not supposed to be putting in 60
hour weeks in the coal mines just yet. They're kids. Their brains are
immature. Growing up makes them more suitable for the coal mines, you don't
need to medicate them into an artificially premature maturity. That's the
argument, anyway.

And here's a different, more controversial point. We used to have psychiatric
disorders called hysteria and homosexuality. Now those have been reclassified
out of existence. No one knows which of the current disorders will meet with
the same fate. It's not impossible that while the help you get from your
treatment is real (and the problems you face are real), ADHD is a poorly
defined disorder.

~~~
Jimmy
>And here's a different, more controversial point. We used to have psychiatric
disorders called hysteria and homosexuality. Now those have been reclassified
out of existence.

I don't think that homosexuality is a good example to illustrate your point
that ADHD might not be a "real" disorder. There's no question that there are
people who are homosexual, but we no longer refer to homosexuality as a
disorder because we no longer believe that it requires treatment. If ADHD were
to parallel homosexuality in this regard, then there would be people who
actually have ADHD, but we would stop viewing this as an abnormal variation in
behavior.

Your example of hysteria is a better one to illustrate your point though. We
no longer believe that hysteria is a disorder because we no longer recognize
it as an actual state of being.

~~~
jlgreco
_" If ADHD were to parallel homosexuality in this regard, then there would be
people who actually have ADHD, but we would stop viewing this as an abnormal
variation in behavior."_

Some people believe this will one day be the case. _(Personally, I don 't have
strong opinions on the matter one way or the other. It's not something I've
researched.)_

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speeder
Whoa, this is hell cool! It make me miss the fun I had with my uncle...

My uncle loved to spend LOTS of time drawing stuff like this and making games
similar to this one (although less RPGey and more puzzley)

Sometimes he did it with whatever paint software was available on the machine.

I never understood why instead of becoming a artist (he draw really well) or a
game designer (he loved to design games) he went to become a prosecutor...

Also, another fun variation my uncle taught me: make your maps with matches,
and use paper balls as characters (or coins, or beans, whatever), with matches
you can simulate doors, opening and closing them, and have a more freeform
roleplay thing, like simulate for example a space ship, and then a accident,
as a asteroid hit the ship, and you then throw a heavy coin in your matches
and see as they make a hole on the thing, and then the players try to survive
in the ship full of holes, broken walls and stuck doors.

By the way, my uncle is still alive, is that we don't have time anymore :/
(also living 600km apart does not help either)

~~~
WalterSear
Why not build him a blog for his inventions?

~~~
speeder
I am certain he would never write on it. He don't read blogs, and don't care
for them, and much less would write one.

~~~
WalterSear
Ok, so at least photograph his inventions and share them with us :)

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malkia
As a dad Of 5 years old boy all I can say is thank you. He loves playing lego
with me, and video games too.

A friend of mine with two boys close to mine did this for his kids: He would
go one day earlier to some close hike trail or peak, and would put some coins
in the ground, different places, etc. The next day he would go with the boys
with a pirate map looking for the treasure.

Boys (and could be girls too) love these things. My son for example can get
completely concentrated when comes to fishing (even if it's with some made up
rod, and fake stuff in there). Last time we went to lake Casitas (California).
He was hooked (unlike for him) for an hour doing his fishing.

~~~
officemonkey
I have a 5-year old too, and he loves LEGO and Video Games too. What video
games do you two like? He LOVES the LEGO Batman game, but my wife is concerned
about the LEGO guns.

The other day we played Minecraft on the iPad together and he built a house,
two beds, and put two signs over the beds. One for himself (he typed his name
all by himself) and one for me (he needed help to find the "p" in "Papa.")

~~~
Avenger42
My wife and I (no kids) enjoy the LEGO Harry Potter games - wands instead of
guns, and as far as I remember, when you fight enemy humans, you don't "kill"
them, they just teleport away.

Most of the LEGO series of games are similar - LOTR has swords and bows &
arrows; Pirates has swords and muskets (and in sword fights, IIRC, enemies
fall down and break apart when they "die"); and Star Wars games have blasters
and light sabers.

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sadkingbilly
Just to add, you can do this in an even simpler form and cater it toward your
child's age. For example, instead of drawing a detailed maze like that, you
can build a dungeon with blocks. It doesn't have to be big. Put some toys
inside it to represent monsters, treasure, traps, etc. If your kids are 2-4,
you can even skip the dice too. Put a puzzle of some sort before the final
boss, like you have to play a series of tones on a toy flute to unlock the
door, or pick a colored key, or say a magic word ("please"), etc. For child-
friendly play, the monsters can be scary at first and then become your friend.
Everyone can live happily ever after at the end (spiders and monsters too).

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protomyth
Another way to do "fog of war" is to imitate Warhammer Quest / Hero Quest
where floor tiles are placed on the table. Might be a bit much for a 5 y/o
given the articles points about the greatness of magnets.

~~~
tarice
I've recently been using white sticky notes, which are quite easy to remove
and cover a 3x3 square grid almost exactly, to great effect in a pen and paper
RPG I run.

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fredley
I love the creativity in this, it's just wonderful. Any chance of slightly
more detail about the rules? Are chests populated with treasure when you
design the map or is it generated randomly during an encounter? Is there a
'goal' or is it a just explore-neverending story type game?

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jtsnow
As a child, I would draw similar maps with monsters and artifacts using
MacDraw Pro. I'd draw black layers to simulate fog of war and delete as play
progressed. My friend and I would take turns creating maps.

It was loads of fun. If something like this gets kickstarted as others have
suggested, I'd recommend a kid-friendly way to build maps. Creation can be
more fun than playing and also gives kids a different set of problems to
explore.

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lancefisher
This is really cool! My 5yo loves to draw games on paper. I let him play on
the iPad almost as much as he wants, but often he prefers to draw the games,
expand on them, and create his own. We make mazes for each other, and he
creates levels for me to figure out.

I go down to our local newspaper, and buy newspaper end rolls for $1 each.
These are the rolls of paper left over after printing. They are about two feet
wide and probably 100 feet long.

Just today, I found a game for the iPad that lets him create his own
platformers. He's excited to try it out tomorrow. It's called "My Doodle Game"
[https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/my-doodle-
game!/id572842495?...](https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/my-doodle-
game!/id572842495?mt=8)

PixelPress also looks promising:
[http://pixelpressgame.com/](http://pixelpressgame.com/)

If anyone knows of other easy game dev tools for kids, I'd love to hear about
them. I think it's good to keep the momentum going when he's having fun with
something.

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diggum
This is great! A few years ago, I did something similar for my son and 3 of
the neighbor kids. It was a very minimalized D&D type of game where they each
picked from a stack of predefined player charts, then played a simple but
thrilling campaign to rescue the kidnapped king. There were a few routes they
could take, each with different hints and warnings from villagers along the
way. In the end, 4 boys from ages 4-7 sat at the table, engrossed and
attentive, for over 3 hours. They've since made their own maps and stories,
though I think the making has been more fun for them than actually playing.

I love this approach, though, as it is almost something a kid could play by
themselves or more easily create for one another and play together. It could
even be played in the car on trips, reducing whining about playing with the
ipad. (I didn't have ipads when I was your age!!)

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cpeterso
This game reminds me of another drawing game: "How To Host A Dungeon". More
info and instructions are here:

[http://planet-thirteen.com/Dungeon.aspx](http://planet-
thirteen.com/Dungeon.aspx)

"How to Host a Dungeon is a solo fantasy pen-and-paper dungeon-building game.
The game follows the progress of an imaginary dungeon from the dawn of time
through to an arch villain attempting to conquer the world.

The creation of the dungeon is driven by random tables and procedures as
monsters, adventurers, civilizations, and arch villains interact in an
underground environment. The player records these interactions, maintains the
dungeon map, and makes some choices in how they play out.

The end product of the game is a complete unique dungeon map and history which
stands as an interesting artifact on its own or can be used as the basis of a
dungeon crawl role-playing game campaign."

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gingerlime
This looks super-cool. I kinda wish I was a dad to have a chance to play with
my son (he's going to be born in October, so there's hope, and I should start
preparing).

However, I must be totally stupid, but I don't get the rules, even after
reading them twice, and looking through all comments on the post and on HN. I
get the movements turn-by-turn. But how do you decide the outcome of
encountering a ghost/spider/arrow with the dice? how do potions work? what's
in the treasure chests? which other items can be collected? (in short, what am
I missing?)

~~~
clarkmoody
It may be that the little numbers represent how you have to roll. For
instance, the {5/12} might mean you have to score a 5 on a roll of 2 6-sided
dice (or one 12-sided die).

At the bottom of the whole map, he has a big list of these {N/M} scores along
with characters.

~~~
gingerlime
yeah, you're right. Thanks. So I'm guessing higher than 5 wins, less loses?
But what about the potions and other stuff you find throughout the game? I'm
guessing something like this can give you, say a +1 dice points for 5 moves or
something like that?

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vanderZwan
This looks like so much fun. How much time does creating the maps take?

~~~
justy
It was heaps of fun! We both got really absorbed in it. I'd made the map the
day before, off and on during the day and evening. Maybe 4-5 hours work.

~~~
donohoe
See my comment on your post - but this would make for a great game-kit.

If you could come up with a flexible system for the fog-of-war and organize
parts of the map to work with the areas they'd cover, then let parents/kids
share/collaborate online or offline to make their own adventurers.

If this were a Kickstarter project I'd back it in a heart beat

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justy
If you want to DL the map and support the development of new ones, search Etsy
for 'Justinia' :)

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10098
That guy is a great father.

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embwbam
Oh man, I did something like this years ago, but for teenagers. It's super fun
to make them. Just think maze + dice and you can come up with some cool stuff.

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krisc
Me and my twin brother did stuff like this when we were kids! We thought of it
as playing "video games" on paper.

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joshdance
Super fun. I love little projects like this. I am sure the kid loves it, and
they are making memories.

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themstheones
All the research on the subject shows incontrovertibly that 5 is way too young
for video games.

~~~
lutusp
> All the research on the subject shows incontrovertibly that 5 is way too
> young for video games.

First, "all the research" means "all the psychological research". Recent
scandals demonstrate that psychological research has the approximate value of
astrological forecasts:

[http://news.sciencemag.org/people-events/2012/11/final-
repor...](http://news.sciencemag.org/people-events/2012/11/final-report-
stapel-affair-points-bigger-problems-social-psychology)

Quote: "In their exhaustive final report about the fraud affair that rocked
social psychology last year, three investigative panels today collectively
find fault with the field itself. They paint an image of a "sloppy" research
culture in which some scientists don't understand the essentials of
statistics, journal-selected article reviewers encourage researchers to leave
unwelcome data out of their papers, and even the most prestigious journals
print results that are obviously too good to be true."

Second, one would want to compare video games with whatever a 5-year-old would
be doing instead. Looked at that way, obviously a well-designed age-
appropriate video game might represent an improvement over its alternatives in
some cases.

Finally, let's let the parents decide -- you know, the people who ignored all
conventional wisdom and decided to have the child in the first place?

~~~
vacri
Speaking of sloppy work, you link to an article on social psychology yet
extrapolate the findings to the whole of psychology. You then throw the baby
out with the bathwater by claiming the entire thing is useless when it's not.

The nature of psychology lends itself to more fuzzy or fraudulent work, but by
saying that psychological research is itself useless, you're also throwing
away things like A/B testing, UX testing (including Apple's much-vaunted
usability stuff), research into grief management, team-building research,
research into cognitive recovery therapy after acquired brain injury, work
looking into ameliorating sexism and racism, perception research for HUDs in
fighter aircraft (my honours research), some pain management research,
research into dealing with PTSD, research into crowd control and management...

... all this (and more) is apparently useless, simply because you've got a
chip on your shoulder. Fuck I'm tired of people just taking pot-shots at a
soft target that they don't understand and never bother to.

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foobarbazinga
This looks incredibly fun to play! Great :)

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simonbarker87
Best Dad ever!

