
Just 29k Western Monarch butterflies are left in California - prostoalex
https://www.kqed.org/science/1956190/just-29000-western-monarch-butterflies-are-left-in-california-thats-down-from-millions
======
mehrdadn
Maybe worth noting: we've lost about half of Earth's wildlife in the past 40
years. [1]

[1] [https://www.worldwildlife.org/press-releases/wwf-report-
reve...](https://www.worldwildlife.org/press-releases/wwf-report-reveals-
staggering-extent-of-human-impact-on-planet)

~~~
rapnie
This is one of the reasons I think we'll soon be talking about more than
'just' climate change, as the problem is much bigger still: we are committing
planet-wide ecocide.

Also maybe more focus on root causes will follow: that we are still promoting
unbridled consumerism, and that inequality created an upper class that is
trying to maintain the status quo. More focus on the latter is already
happening.

~~~
forgotmypw
We're in a position with a lot of power, but this is obscured from us. When we
trace the strings which run from ecocide to ourselves, it is easy to see what
changes we need to make.

~~~
rapnie
While this is true, and I agree, this insight has been obvious for at least
the last 40 years. Seeing the change is unfortunately very different than
bringing the change. I am afraid most people need the emergency at their own
doorstep before they are truly willing to act and make sacrifices to their way
of living.

~~~
forgotmypw
Have you stopped buying plastic?

Have you stopped buying the myriad "cleaning" products which pollute your home
and create pollution in the process of being produced?

Have you stopped buying disposable clothing and plastic trinkets?

If you are still buying these things, you are complicit in this ecocide. And
now you know it, too.

Once you stop yourself, you can tell others, too.

Without making changes in your own actions, there's little you can ask of
anyone else.

This is a change that will come one individual convincing another individual,
one at a time, to stop contributing to the problem.

No one else will do it for us: politicians don't give a fuck, corporations
don't give a fuck, regulators don't give a fuck, military doesn't give a fuck,
even "scientists" are mostly in the same camp of not giving a fuck, for the
most part.

We are the only ones who give a fuck, because it's our close relatives, and
soon, us, who are being exterminated.

And we are feeding and building our own extermination machine.

~~~
nothrabannosir
We are facing a tragedy of the commons, and individual action does _not_ solve
that. This holds true for overfishing, pollution, greenhouse gas emissions,
you name it. The change we need is pigovian taxes, which factor negative
externalities into the price of the activity causing it, instead of letting
them be amortised by society. Consumer-shaming is not how we solve a tragedy
of the commons.

If half the world stops burning fossil fuels tomorrow, the other half will
enjoy cheaper oil and double their emissions the next day. Tax pollutants.

~~~
knightofmars
Exactly! We need to stop acting like people will wake-up one day and change
all of their habits. You want to change behaviors? Make it so expensive to
engage in those behaviors that they're no longer economically viable.

------
nathancahill
Meanwhile, 3 days ago:
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/second-
man...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/second-man-with-
ties-to-mexicos-largest-monarch-butterfly-reserve-found-
dead/2020/02/02/d655c3b4-460b-11ea-91ab-ce439aa5c7c1_story.html)

~~~
DaniFong
must the environmentalist arm themselves?

~~~
nathancahill
In Mexico? A lot of them do.

------
gravelc
I'm part of a group that is developing RNAi-based pesticides [1]. One of the
biggest advantages of such a technology (even relative to organic pesticides
like Bt toxin) is the ability to target pests in a highly specific manner and
avoid non-target organisms such as monarch butterflies and honey bees. There
are likely many factors influencing insect population declines, but hopefully
this and similar technologies as part of an integrated pest management
strategy will offer a lot of benefit.

[1] [https://www.oecd.org/chemicalsafety/pesticides-
biocides/conf...](https://www.oecd.org/chemicalsafety/pesticides-
biocides/conference-on-rnai-based-pesticides.htm)

~~~
ptah
removing one species typically has a chain effect.

EDIT: are you also investigating these chain effects?

~~~
gravelc
Stopping say thrips or aphids eating a horticultural crop somehow removes a
species, which then usually has a chain effect? Can you show me some
scientific literature where this is typically the case?

Personally I don't research these 'chain effects' in depth as it's well
outside my area of expertise. There are however many research groups and
government agencies looking at ecological impacts of crop protection measures.
Some of their presentations are in the link I provided. As scientists, we
collaborate on these kinds of things.

~~~
ptah
when it comes to aphids, their predators like ladybugs would be affected.
aphids are not a problem they are a symptom of a problem
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGlqnkE1Id0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGlqnkE1Id0)

------
spodek
> _habitat loss, the use of pesticides, disease and the changing climate have
> all likely contributed to the decline of western monarchs_

We can dance around proximal causes all we want, but all environmental roads
lead to overpopulation.

Most people associate acting on population with China forcing abortions or
tearing down homes, or racist eugenics policies or forced sterilizations.

That's why when I talk about overpopulation, I talk about success cases like
Thailand. Or how Mexico's soap operas helped lower that nation's birth rate.
These cases brought prosperity, stability, and abundance.

When they say we need more people to create more minds to solve bigger
problems, I point out the geniuses have already been born and they said the
population was too high. Besides, what was the world population that produced
Beethoven and Shakespeare. Einstein was born to a population below 2 billion.
Buddha and Jesus lived below 1 billion.

The greatest technologies to solve our environmental problems aren't solar
powered planes, thorium, and rocket ships. It's IUD, vasectomies, and other
tools of family planning, along with educating everyone about it.

~~~
LMYahooTFY
> That's why when I talk about overpopulation, I talk about success cases like
> Thailand. Or how Mexico's soap operas helped lower that nation's birth rate.
> These cases brought prosperity, stability, and abundance.

Can you elaborate on these and/or provide links?

At first thought it seems absurd that telenovelas could significantly impact
the birthrate.

~~~
spodek
My introduction came from Alan Weisman's book Countdown. I did a couple
podcast episodes on it: [https://shows.acast.com/leadership-and-the-
environment/episo...](https://shows.acast.com/leadership-and-the-
environment/episodes/250-why-talk-about-birthrate-and-population-so-much) and
[https://shows.acast.com/leadership-and-the-
environment/episo...](https://shows.acast.com/leadership-and-the-
environment/episodes/248-countdown-a-book-i-recommend-by-alan-weisman).

Here's a New York Times article on Mexican soap operas and family planning
[https://www.nytimes.com/1982/01/05/world/soap-opera-in-
mexic...](https://www.nytimes.com/1982/01/05/world/soap-opera-in-mexico-
dramatizing-birth-control.html)

This article covers soap operas around the world and family planning
[http://utminers.utep.edu/asinghal/Articles%20and%20Chapters/...](http://utminers.utep.edu/asinghal/Articles%20and%20Chapters/JA%20Singhal%20Rogers%201989%20Educating%20Through%20Television_R.pdf).

Search results with more
[https://duckduckgo.com/?q=mexico+family+planning+soap+opera&...](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=mexico+family+planning+soap+opera&atb=v173-1&ia=web).

~~~
LMYahooTFY
Thank you for the links, it sounded like you might have more expansive
thoughts out there and that's what I was after.

I appreciate it!

~~~
spodek
We're in this together.

------
samcheng
If you can, visit the Monarch Grove at Natural Bridges State Beach in Santa
Cruz. Even though the numbers are down significantly, it is still visibly
better than last year, and it's wonderful to stand amidst the Eucalyptus trees
and see the butterflies swarming.

~~~
ZacharyPitts
Standing in the midst of the butterflies at Natural Bridges some time in the
early 90s is truly one of the wonders of my life.

That day, there were easily more than 29k just in that one grove. By staying
still long enough, I was covered in butterflies as they flittered about
looking for a place to be.

------
gorgoiler
I remember first visiting Santa Cruz in the 90s and being disappointed to be
early for what was still expected to be a magnificent season.

Earlier this winter I was splitting an old log pile and disturbed three
hibernating monarchs. I felt like a real jerk for waking them up. I hope they
survived, and learned to be more careful disturbing the more obvious
hibernation sites in the garden.

I wish my connection with nature had come earlier in life.

------
bsder
While the "plant milkweed" is nice advice, I seem to remember that you have to
plant a very _specific_ species of milkweed. If you plant the wrong milkweed,
you wind up killing the butterflies because they don't have enough energy for
their migration.

~~~
tonygrue
Not an expert, but some digging in on this indicates there is one species
folks advice against (topical milkweed); otherwise the advice is a species
native to your region.

Some sites out there can help you pick a milkweed for your region.
[[https://blog.nwf.org/2015/02/twelve-native-milkweeds-for-
mon...](https://blog.nwf.org/2015/02/twelve-native-milkweeds-for-monarchs/)]
and
[[https://monarchjointventure.org/images/uploads/documents/Mil...](https://monarchjointventure.org/images/uploads/documents/MilkweedFactSheetFINAL.pdf)]

------
ShorsHammer
I used to mock organic food and it's proponents, there's absolutely no
nutritional benefits, but watching the sixth major extinction[0] on Earth
unfold, caused by us, it's hard to justify the widespread use of pesticides.

We have a responsibility as the sentient beings here to protect all these
things, they nourish us, they keep ecosystems and everything we need to
survive in balance, small they may be, yet hold so much importance to the only
known living planet in the galaxy. Life is really simple to nurture and
hopefully we don't fuck it up.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction)

~~~
pathseeker
organic food won't help with extinction. if we switched to organic food we
would have to plow down the remaining rain forest to feed the same number of
people we do now

~~~
adrianN
Or we could reduce our meat consumption. Americans eat nearly 100kg of meat
per person per year. Twice as much as the Chinese and still nearly 50% more
than Europeans. Not to mention the average Indian who eats less than 4kg per
year.

~~~
jakear
A push towards cured meats could help with this... my meat consumption last
week was a 4oz pack of prosciutto. Way more tasty than a hunk of beef, and if
I continue at that rate for a year I'd consume less than 6kg overall. And it's
not like I'd get sick of prosciutto, there are all sorts of cured meats with
interesting and unique flavor profiles to choose from.

~~~
gregoryl
I'm not gonna go searching, but quite certain cured meats are strongly linked
to high cancer risks.

~~~
CalRobert
That doesn't make the assertion wrong, though, even if a bit ghoulish.

~~~
gregoryl
Hah! Excellent point.

------
rbobby
> population has declined by over 99 percent

> This year's estimate [...] stands at about 29,000 monarchs, __just above
> __last year’s all-time low

> Federal officials are __considering __listing monarch butterflies for
> protection under the Endangered Species Act

Very disappointing that the feds are moving so slowly.

------
sethammons
I recall, as a kid, having probably more than 30k monarchs for past my house
every year. My kids were lucky to see a handful. :(

------
tcox
Well... you know... housing in California is expensive.

