
The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change - misnamed
http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/apr/08/coffee-shops-gentrification-urban-change
======
dkopi
Commenting on this post while I'm at a coffee shop myself.

If I had to pick one city for having the best coffee shops, it would probably
be Tel Aviv. The coffee is great, all coffee shops are laptop friendly (and
gladly provide you with the wifi password), and people are very open to social
interaction with strangers. At any given moment you'll find a designer working
on a logo, an architecture student reading a post blasting gentrification,
entrepreneurs discussing their new startup, or freelancers looking for a break
from working at home. Tel Aviv coffee shops are also very dog friendly, and
that's always a great conversation starter.

I often find that "could you watch my laptop while i go to the bathroom?"
followed by "hey, what are you working on?" is usually the best way to get to
know new people.

I even find that I'm a lot more productive when I work at a coffee shop
instead of an office. A coffee shop provides with just enough distraction and
people watching when you need to take a break, but not enough that you
completely lose concentration and focus.

~~~
cylinder
Laptops are the opposite of what I want to see in cafes, actually I prefer
that they have an outright ban

~~~
dvanduzer
Laptops are a fantastic way for more introverted people to meet each other.
Why do you think it's all the rage to paper your Macbook like a NASCAR
driver's jacket? Sure, part of it is just the pure hustle of startups, and the
low cost of logo stickers as marketing.

To a potential startup founders a few years out of college, the coffee shop
full of laptops is going to feel just like the library during study week.
(Maybe someone a lot younger than I am would say the college libraries just
feel like coffee shops these days. Get off my lawn.)

Have you ever sipped a latte with your headphones on and caught someone's eye
as they concentrated as intensely as you're trying to? Then did you notice the
GitHub sticker and smile to yourself? Then did you notice the <STARTUP NAME
HERE> sticker and know you would _really_ have something to say to them?
(Assuming you work up the courage, dang, they're gorgeous.)

If you don't want to spend time alone with strangers in quiet reflection, get
your frappucino to go, and find a different social club, eh?

~~~
geebee
I have no problem with laptop cafes, I bring mine to cafes to work all the
time. I really enjoy it. But I also see merit in cafes that establish a no
cell, no laptop rule (sometimes just for certain hours of the day). That would
be a draw for me (honestly, the no cell phone policy tends to be more of a
draw than a no laptop policy).

To me, this is very much a one size doesn't fit all situation. It makes no
sense to get into a huff when people are on their laptops in a cafe that
permits this. That said, remarkably, some people get strangely enraged when
one cafe or bar out of twenty (or hundred) establishes a no cell phone policy.
Like, they aren't satisfied that they can have their way in 95% of coffee
shops and bars, it has to be _this specific one, right now_ (these folks,
interestingly, often think the matter can be cleared up by simply reminding
everyone which country we live in).

~~~
shanusmagnus
I've dreamed many times about starting a cafe with a no-cell no-laptop policy,
but just assumed I was a cranky bastard and the idea was insane. Your post
suggests that maybe it's a thing, though - would you mind saying where you've
found such cafes?

~~~
geebee
Wish I could, this is just something I read or hear about on the news, radio,
and so forth every now and then, usually because someone got angry when they
couldn't use their cell and was asked to leave and got angry about it and it
becomes a "local interest kind of news story.

Bourbon and branch in SF bans cell phones, but that's a bar, not a cafe. I
read about another one (a cafe) that bans cell phones and laptops for a
certain section of the day, but I'd have to google around for it.

------
Xcelerate
> I love looking in through the outside window and seeing everyone on
> MacBooks, it’s busy, it’s exciting and yet you’ll get someone walking passed
> saying ‘Oh my god, look in there, everyone is on a laptop! What’s wrong with
> them! Why don’t they talk to each other!?’

This is funny, because it perfectly describes the difference in attitude
between me and my father. He gets annoyed when he walks into a coffee shop and
sees everyone on their phones and laptops. On the other hand, I think the
atmosphere is quite cozy, and love taking my own stuff to work on to that kind
of cheerful environment. I almost never start a conversation, but I do enjoy
being around other people.

~~~
mysterypie
> I think the atmosphere is quite cozy, and love taking my own stuff to work
> on

I can remember a time (1980's and earlier) when the modern version of the
coffee shop didn't exist.

The nearest equivalent was a bar: Dimly lit, filled with smoke, loud annoying
music, aggressive people, and a waiter coming around every 10 minutes to
ask/demand if you want another drink. If you dared bring in some papers or a
book to read, you'd get dirty looks, rude comments, or worse.

Thank god for the modern coffee shop and the shift in attitude.

~~~
ido
Might be geographical? Many of Vienna's most popular cafés were established in
the 1800s.

~~~
Shengbo
Yes, as far as I know the very first cafés in Europe opened in the 17th
century in Vienna, Paris and London and then spread to Italy and the rest of
the Austro-Hungarian empire over the following two centuries.

~~~
DrJokepu
Yep, there were revolutions in Europe that started out in coffee shops.

~~~
tehwalrus
And yet the guy with "a PhD in coffee shops" in the original article says he
thinks they contributed to political _stability_ in 18th Century England
because they give people a place to rant and feel better afterwards...

(I never was convinced that you feel better after a rant, though. Rather, you
have just worked out your "angry muscles".)

------
omonra
"what everyone hates about urban change and gentrification – first come the
creatives and their coffee shops, then the young professionals, then the
luxury high-rises and corporate chains that push out original residents"

I personally have no problem with it. And if we're talking about crappy and
dangerous neighborhoods that are becoming upscale - I love it.

If anything I think it's the sort of process that benefits majority of
population while extracting a cost on a minority. If we look at total effect,
it's certainly net positive.

~~~
nefitty
I can't help interpreting your opinion as, "it's ok to kick the poor people
out, as long as the upper classes, government and businesses prosper." People
aren't numbers to throw into a mean function. That "net positive" argument is
what has been used to excuse globalization's "there have to be some losers"
philosophy, which disproportionately affects those already in poverty.

A sense of community is one of the few things poor neighborhoods can offer
their inhabitants. When those impoverished people are elbowed out and away
from each other to make way for another coffee shop, it becomes hard to
sympathize with the moneyed class's desire for late-night gourmet poke.

Edit: Taking a look at TulliusCicero's WaPo link is making me reconsider my
position.

~~~
cossatot
I don't know a whole lot about the general outcomes of those slowly and
progressively displaced by gentrification but in sufficiently small
catastrophies (i.e. not Syria) the displaced lower classes often do better
economically. For example, Katrina refugees who stayed away are reported to
have more income and live in safer and less impoverished areas with better
schools (e.g. [1]). The city is more diverse and affluent as well (look for
Citylab article on this, I can't look up atm) so it might not be a selection
bias thing.

However complaints all around are that social networks and cultures were
destroyed. It seems that when it's time to move, people move towards economic
opportunity rather than for culture, etc. Hopefully with time those social
networks can develop into the next rich permutation.

[1]: [http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-
texas/houston/a...](http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-
texas/houston/article/Ten-years-later-Katrina-evacuees-now-part-
of-6458412.php)

~~~
jacalata
Your link is subscriber only - does it address selection bias, eg perhaps
those who relocated had an existing advantage?

~~~
briandear
Not really. The relocated people generally arrived in Houston with nothing
because they were evacuated to Houston and had nothing to return to in NOLA.
Houston took in some of the poorest of the poor. I lived in Houston during
Katrina (and actually was a catastrophe insurance adjuster,) so I saw it first
hand. Many of those people got healthy FEMA money and were able to restart in
Houston. However to be fair, the crime rate in Houston did spike due to some
of the influx and the problems it brought (such as NOLA gang members getting
into disputes with local gang members.) Overall though, it seemed to be a
positive for most involved. (It did result in a much elevated Cajun/Creole
cuisine due to the NOLA cooks that relocated!)

~~~
pxlpshr
Confirm. Born and raised in Houston but now in Austin.

Texas is not "the deep south", we opened our arms and our hearts to everyone
who was displaced by the hurricane. Nearly every major city in Texas
participated. Moreover, we've experienced enough hurricanes to know the depth
and severity of damage that can occur – and will continue to occur.

Neighbors help each other in times of crisis. Who knows, in the future maybe
Louisiana will have to return the favor.

------
golergka
Why is the author so quick to assume that everyone sees gentrification as
something bad? There's been vocal opposition to it, but it doesn't mean that
everybody feels that way.

~~~
mc32
When they don't have it people want it, and when they get it, they don't want
it. Run down cities, rust belt cities wish for gentrification, people who live
in places going down hill wish for it too, it brings safer neighborhoods,
better stores, more jobs, on the other hand people decry rising rents and
"changing the character" of the neighborhood, as if unemployment and the
transients didn't also"change the character" of the neighborhood.

Basically people want it both ways. Have their cakes and eat them too.

~~~
Terr_
Or maybe people want a middle-ground (in outcome or in rate-of-change) which
for whatever reason doesn't seem to be in the cards.

~~~
mc32
You're either ascending, or you're declining as a city. Things don't remain
frozen in time. People age, buildings age, new people are born, commerce
brings people in, those are the dynamics.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Theoretically you could, but I don't want to be the one designing a PID
controller for that...

------
oska
I recommend the included YouTube clip. It's from a series of short
documentaries called _Look at Life_ [1], produced between 1959 and 1969 in the
UK.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Look_at_Life_%28film_series%29](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Look_at_Life_%28film_series%29)

------
Zelmor
I love myself some fine light roasted filter coffee as much as the next
person. My biggest concern with these places, however is IT security. Anyone
who hasn't played around with their laptops once receiving the wifi password,
running their chosen network analysis tools/penetration suite and messing with
people whose screen you might even see from two tables away, hands up in the
air.

I will not be first in line, mind you. Thus, I advise people to use their own
connection or ssh to their home network when using even protected wifi in
coffee shops. The burglar already has the keys to the house, and you are a
willing guest to the table. Who will take responsibility for your safety if
not you?

~~~
foldr
>Anyone who hasn't played around with their laptops once receiving the wifi
password, running their chosen network analysis tools/penetration suite and
messing with people whose screen you might even see from two tables away,
hands up in the air.

That's not ethical, and depending on exactly what you're doing, possibly not
legal either. There's very clearly an implicit assumption that coffee shop
wifi is for your own personal (and relatively light use). If you want to do
anything else, you should get the permission of the owners.

~~~
Zelmor
As much as I agree with you, it is really naive to expect everyone to behave
ethically. We wouldn't need security if the world was as such.

~~~
foldr
I wasn't suggesting that everyone would behave ethically, just pointing out
that it's not ok to poke around on a cafe's network like that.

------
coldtea
Because they are not essential (like a bodega or gas station would be), and
most are tied to a more laid-back, more bohemian lifestyle -- which means
enough non-poor people are coming in the neighborhood to make them viable.

Of course talking about "coffee shops" proper -- the poor just make do with
Dunkin Doughnuts and the like...

~~~
narag
What's a "bodega"? I'm surprised to see this word in English, also considered
as a basic service (not a wine cellar then?). In Spanish it's one of the two
evolutions of Greek "apotheke", the other one being "botica" (farmacy).

~~~
coldtea
I know it with these meanings, but used it in the third form (here's from
Wiktionary):

(1) A storehouse for maturing wine, a winery.

(2) A store specializing in Hispanic groceries.

(3) (slang, New York) Any convenience store.

~~~
narag
OK, "el chino" then.

------
nxzero
“What’s the WiFi password?”

Interesting; tomorrow I'm going to ask five people this exact question just to
see what happens.

EDIT: Obviously if you've read the article, it states this is like asking "do
you know what time it is?" \- that is it's an known excuse to start a
conversation. Personally, I don't believe this, hence my experiment.

~~~
WalterBright
penny-get-your-own-wifi

~~~
nxzero
Penny: Hey, Sheldon, did you change your wifi password again?

Sheldon: Yes, it's "Penny, get your own wifi." No spaces.

___

TV-Show: The Big Bang Theory

Source: [http://www.tvfanatic.com/quotes/hey-sheldon-did-you-
change-y...](http://www.tvfanatic.com/quotes/hey-sheldon-did-you-change-your-
wi-fi-password-again-yes-i/)

~~~
seer
Can someone please explain (or point out a link to the rules in question) why
is this post getting downvoted? I understand the parent comment is not very
informative, but this one I found quite helpful as I had forgotten the quote
in question and it is relevant to the "wi-fi password discussion" the
grandparent has started.

Additionally I would simply love a bot like that going around explaining
popular media quotes. I frequent the SpaceX subreddit and they have one
explaining space related acronyms whenever any are found in the discussion.
Makes reading it a lot more pleasant.

~~~
rfrey
I think there's a HN cultural preference to avoid stream-of-consciousness
tangents, so even clever or informative -- but off-topic -- replies to such
tangents tend to suffer.

IMO this is the source of some people's impression that humour isn't welcome
here. My experience is the opposite - on-topic (and funny) comments do well
even if only a joke or quip, but off-topic humour sinks, even if clever and
civil.

I'm quite lowbrow and really enjoy the more clever comment chains on Reddit,
but I also appreciate the HN alternative, where attempts at pun chains, etc.
sink to the bottom and on-topic thoughts rise.

------
groundCode
I find it interesting that Coffee shops have such a long standing history in
London given that tea is basically the national drink.

~~~
test1235
London is practically a country unto itself as far as customs and behaviours
go.

------
PascLeRasc
This is very similar to PG's most recent essay about making Pittsburgh a
startup hub: [http://paulgraham.com/pgh.html](http://paulgraham.com/pgh.html)

------
Zenst
Well the insurance industry was somewhat born on the back of coffee with the
formation of reinsurance for ships by a group of people who used to meet in a
coffee shop that went on to form Llyods of London, and the World of
reinsurance and insurance grew from there.

One indeed wonders, how much business is done in a coffee shop's today in
relation to the past compared to todays times.

------
jkot
I think there was post while ago which tried to predict property price raise
based on number of new coffee shops.

~~~
lamby
It's probably not a bad idea - I mean, why not piggy-back and/or trust
Starbucks research and experience in where to locate stores!

------
ewanvalentine
I'm not sure why urban progress can be considered a 'curse'.

------
jackfoxy
...and the founding of Lloyds of London and the New York Stock Exchange were
both associated with coffee shops.

