
Parents are exhausting their children. An eighth-grade boy explains how - MilnerRoute
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2017/10/20/parents-are-exhausting-their-children-an-eighth-grade-boy-explains-how/
======
GlenTheMachine
One of my kids' guidance cousellors once said a very wise things to me:

“You know what makes me really excited about a job? Knowing that after
spending eight hours a day at work, I have another three hours of overtime
after dinner.”

Homework has generally been shown to not aid in learning. And as a parent I
can guarantee that 90% of both of my childrens' homework assignments aren't
really even intended to aid in learning. As far as I can tell, they're mostly
useful as a way to sort top performers - being kids who not only understand
the material, but who are both willing and able to jump through the necessary
hoops - from everyone else.

I went to high school in a small rural area in the late 1980's. I had a
maximum of one hour of homework a night. Often I was able to finish my
homework on the bus home. I spent my free time teaching myself to code,
something I wouldn't have been able to do otherwise.

I earned a PhD in aerospace engineering; I think I turned out OK,
educationally.

~~~
Clubber
I believe it's purpose is to reinforce the material. Having said that, our kid
has 8-12 pages of worksheets to complete a week, and we have to fight her
every night to get her to do it. It seems excessive to me for an elementary
student. It reminds me of the saying, "kids are naturally curious and eager to
learn until school beats it out of them."

~~~
GlenTheMachine
I believe the teachers think it's to reinforce the material. But much of the
research says it's ineffective. AFAIK the research doesn't say why, exactly;
but I would guess it has something to do with not being able to effectively
engage in demanding intellectual pursuits for more than a few hours a day.

~~~
jacobolus
It’s not just that it’s mentally tiring. The bigger problem is that the work
is dreadfully boring and trivial and disconnected, there’s little feeling of
accomplishment when finished (just sometimes relief), the kids aren’t allowed
to choose what to work on, there are few chances for them to work at their own
pace or level of ability, the feedback is delayed (often by a week or more),
mistakes are punished instead of celebrated as learning opportunities, and
there is a huge weight of parental and societal expectation hanging over
grades and exam scores.

~~~
SolaceQuantum
When I was young, I just had one or two things of homework a day in third
grade. The assignment was either in math, english, science, or social
studies/history and you could choose which you wanted to do based off of
buckets by subject. You then took home a big fold-up of an assignment. It was
fun unwrapping it, doing the work, and then giving it back. You never knew
exactly what you would have to do until you opened your big sheet of paper at
home.

The point was that at the end of the semester everyone did every assignment,
but everyone does it in a "fun" order. This was in Canada and I don't know if
it's acceptably done anymore.

I certainly wouldn't have handled multiple sheets of hard work at that age.

------
cyberferret
Its all about a balancing act. My 14 year old son spends an inordinate amount
of time gaming on his PC. We don't often chew him out for that, but when he
ignores routine chores or homework assignments in preference for gaming, then
we bring the hammer down.

The fact is, a lot of kids are terrible at time management and prioritisation.
It is our job as parents to try and teach those skills. Quite often, that ends
up with us having to excessively be the 'bad cop'.

As much as the kid in the OP's story eloquently described his pent up
feelings, I can say that I experience the same sort of rage (complete with
balled up fist) when I walk into the house to see an overflowing trash bin in
the kitchen, dirty laundry scattered around the living room, front driveway
still full of leaves (all my younger son's designated daily chores) and I hear
the steady gunfire of CoD coming from his room.

~~~
bitL
The issue here might be overload of homework that kids have these days.
Teachers are often literally going insane; you can see this at top
universities and it's trickling down to elementary schools. Work like crazy,
dread finals, do this till you die.

~~~
cududa
Back when I was in middle school (11-13 years old) in the early 2000's our
public school got tons of state funds for our "great performance". This led to
teachers compensation being tied to said performance.

That meant each teacher would try and assign at least an hour of homework to
stuff more and more into their students heads. The school had to implement a
"maximum 4 hours of homework" policy. It didn't really do anything - teachers
in different departments didn't coordinate. The next year they chose specific
days teachers could assign homework...

Two years ago my younger cousin went to the same school - he caught mono and
pneumonia, requiring a long stay at home. As a 13 year old he started getting
anxiety attacks for fear of the compounding work.

Public schools are broken, and I don't think most parents realize the pressure
put upon their children by teachers trying to get a bonus. All around a mess

~~~
Khelavaster
When teachers are so poor those piddling bonuses overrule putting childrens'
needs first--and when bonuses encourage things other than putting childrens'
needs first--there are far greater problems.

~~~
cududa
Probably about 40-60% of the problem right there

------
notacoward
The thing that leapt out at me here was not the amount of work, but the
feeling of being harassed, ambushed, denied even a chance to take a breath
before the next demand is made.

Go read the "you know what would be awesome" part again, but instead of a
parent saying it to a child imagine you're on the receiving end and it's your
child or your spouse or your boss saying "wouldn't it be awesome" to you. No,
it's not awesome. What would be awesome would be a shred of empathy, but none
of that is evident.

Would you handle that situation with grace or equanimity? Could you have when
you were 13? Doubtful. I know I didn't, and don't. Maybe some children are
being worn out by the actual workload we give them, but AFAICT the article's
real point is that they're _also_ worn out by the emotional labor of being a
repository for all of their parents' expectations and insecurities and
frustrations. Parents should be responsible for their kids' mental health, not
the other way around.

~~~
ScottBurson
> the article's real point is that they're also worn out by the emotional
> labor of being a repository for all of their parents' expectations and
> insecurities and frustrations

Stunningly well said.

------
osrec
The language used in the letter seems to be written by an exceptionally gifted
8th grader. I'm from the UK, so I'm not sure what the standards are like in
the US, but I would be surprised if many 14 year olds in the UK could write a
letter of that quality - it makes me a little suspicious as to whether the
letter is in fact genuine. Either way, pushy parents are creating unreasonable
expectations and anxiety for their children. Kids in large developing
countries seem to get the worst of it, where competition and expectations are
both off the charts.

~~~
cosarara97
The boy really spends all day studying, so in the end he got good at writing.

~~~
justinjlynn
If they're suitably motivated opportunities exist for early escape.

~~~
cududa
Not without support of their parents.

~~~
justinjlynn
You'd be surprised.

------
brightball
In high school, I looked at the beginning of each class to see how much
homework counted. If it was about 5-6% or less, I didn’t do it.

To this day, don’t regret it even a little. The big projects I did. The busy
work I skipped.

In college I actually dropped the same English class 4 times after the first
day because the teacher insisted we write a daily journal. Finally got one
that didn’t do that.

If the work is pointless busywork, I’ve never gotten along well with it.
Probably one really good reason I’m a programmer is because if I have to do
the same thing more than once...I automate it.

------
Teichopsia
Five comments so far and the opinions are on both ends. Do keep in mind that
there have been many articles touting how man X hours one can be productive.
It is not only, what, 7 hours or so at school doing work, but the time before
to wake up, get ready, commute, school, commute back. Then home, homework and
chores. They are children. If we are "complaining" as adults about about
workload.... you get the idea.

~~~
vacri
Teenagers are minors, but not "children". Painting them as "children" leads to
silly things like a 16-year-old being considered a child right up until
birthday 17, at which point they can join the army.

Holes appear in the story in the article when things like "seven straight
hours" \- do kids not get lunch or recess breaks anymore? It's clear the teen
is overstating the case to make it sound worse. That doesn't mean there's no
problem to address, but I wouldn't take the statement on face value. I'm also
not sure I'd take that letter as typical (for an adult, let alone a young
teen), given the quality of the prose.

~~~
cududa
Recess isn't a thing in high school. Most lunches are squeezed in 30-45 minute
periods where they often are studying or doing homework. At my high school we
got 25 minutes of lunch, including time to get to the cafeteria and back to
class

~~~
GlenTheMachine
And also, the classes are so short - the amount of homework the teachers
assign sort of makes sense, in that they only see the kids for maybe 45
minutes a day. Which means the kids are being jolted from one intellectual
pursuit to another every 45 minutes. How do you teach _anything_ in 45
minutes? How do you learn 7 or 8 different topics in 45 minute chunks, one
after the other?

~~~
cududa
I have trouble context shifting between three tasks a day. Sucks to think kids
have to do this 5-8 times a day

------
mquander
> Of course our kids need to do their chores and homework.

Citation needed.

~~~
coreyp_1
I upvoted this comment because it was the first thing today ( a stressful day,
I might add) that has made me laugh.

~~~
ramy_d
I think it's also a legit question.

------
rrggrr
A mnemonic device I try to remember as a divorced parent is "SOS":

Self-awareness: What are my issues.

Objectivity: Am I projecting them on my kid.

Selflessness: Its tough being a child of divorce, what sacrifices can I
reasonably make to give them as normal a life as possible?

But none of this impacts homework, which is mountains higher than I had as a
child.

~~~
thriftwy
Why can't you just go through the assignments and decide which half your child
doesn't have to do?

------
devereaux
As a kid I spend my weekends and my summers doing nothing.

"Nothing" was in the perspective of adults of course. Nothing they wanted me
to do.

To me, doing nothing meant reading all the books I could find, exploring some
random subject and if it was fun, experimenting with it, randomly.

One year I found a chemistry book. I started reading it and wondering what
happens when I mix this and this chemicals? And I did, and oh what a pretty
color! But why? Can I predict the outcome of mixing these chemicals? If I let
the residue dry, does it burn? It doesn't, but then why is the flame blue when
I use copper, red when I use iron?

Another year I found an electronic book. Yet another, it was an old book about
Basic. After that, many of my summers were spent learning about computers and
programming languages, which lead me to where I am now.

I don't think I would have done any of this if I had been exhausted by exams,
chores etc.

~~~
thegabez
This is not the typical behavior of a teenager.

~~~
devereaux
Behavior is influenced by environments. Kids have a natural proclivity to
experiment with things -- innovate, regardless of the circumstances. Have you
never noticed? However, they are not very often left free to innovate.

Someone mentioned their kid spent too much time playing videogames. I did too.
After I finally got a computer, someday I found this old game called Doom 2. I
spent months with it, as it was so smooth on my low end computer. Then I got
bored, but I discovered I could create my own levels! I had nothing to model,
so I created a level based on my school. I didn't have maps of anything, but
my school was easy to remember as I went there every day.

Now imagine any of this is a modern context - a teenager doing nothing, mixing
and burning random chemicals to see what happens, and finally not just playing
"violent" videogames, but making one replicating the school floor plan!! I
would be certainly labelled a menace to society!!

The environment influences behavior of kids and most of the time, I think it
exerts a negative influence. I believe in free time, and being non
judgemental. Everyone has to figure out their own path in life.

~~~
Nition
As you probably know, the Columbine shooters had ostensibly made a Doom map of
their school and indeed a big deal was made about it by people who didn't know
anything about Doom or map editors or videogames.

Of course just about everyone who's made maps for any sort of game has tried
to make their house or their school. It's just fun to put the real-life places
you know into a game.

~~~
devereaux
I know that in retrospect. I didn't know it back then, or I wouldn't have done
the level. Kids do things just randomly, to experiment in various domains. We
project our fears onto them. In doing so, we influence them.

I am very surprised by most of the reactions to this article, on HN of all
places.

------
erdojo
The letter from the kid is full of manipulations. "Seven straight houses of
cognitive exercises"? Is that supposed to be code for SCHOOL?

Sorry, maybe the parents are putting too much stress on him for the test, but
otherwise do your chores and homework before you play video games (which is
what he really wants the hour for).

~~~
Thriptic
If someone told me I had to clock a 8 hour day, come home and do several hours
more work, and then do a bunch of menial labor five days a week I would be
annoyed too. It is totally reasonable for someone to be irked when they are
given no autonomy at any point during a day.

~~~
JustSomeNobody
Don’t be a parent. :)

You have to cook, wash dishes, wash clothes, make sure everyone gets baths,
etc, etc. Help with homework, etc. A whole bunch of post 8 hour work day
labor.

~~~
selectodude
Yeah, but you chose that.

~~~
benchaney
This is a huge part of the problem IMO. Plenty of people have busy schedules,
but they also have autonomy, and they get to make decisions about what is
important to them and what isn't. Kids have none of that.

------
tyingq
I don't get how this one anecdotal example of bad parenting is suddenly worthy
of broad attention.

Is there a tie to this being common or widespread that I missed?

~~~
Knufen
''While this scenario obviously doesn’t apply to all kids, it does to plenty
of them, and Wiseman wants parents who see themselves in this to take note''

I think the pressure kids and teenagers feel in modern society is worthy of
discussion

~~~
mjevans
I think everyone feels pressured, and not in the same ways. Not just teens or
adults.

My personal experience growing up and living in a 'Western' society is that
we're collectively very bad at empathy and empathizing. It is not obvious that
people understand each other; lacking the full context of knowing the
ambitions, desires, loathings and fears an individual has. There is no time,
common social etiquette, or polite way of limiting parts of interactions that
are too sensitive in that moment.

It is so pervasive that many movies have these issues as critical dependencies
that enable the actual plot. (Often in the form of; keep a secret from
family/loved ones to protect them)

~~~
jacobolus
To be fair, the families of people I know from most other parts of the world
also are often pretty bad at empathy. I’m not convinced that “Western” society
is particularly special in that regard.

------
pier25
I work at an education company doing tech. Our main product is an education
system that goes from prefirst to high school (we're in Mexico so it's
different here).

One of the principles of this system is that there should be as little
homework as possible. We focus more on building cognitive skills.

Since this is radically different from classic education our biggest challenge
is actually coaching and training the teachers.

~~~
WalterBright
How do you build cognitive skills without doing work?

~~~
subwayclub
Feedback. Speed and clarity of feedback trumps effort in honing a skill. Note
that parent didn't say "no work" but "no homework". Most forms of homework
give unclear feedback to the student with few ways to check work before
turning it in. I cannot count the number of times in middle and high school
that I got a homework assignment with poor directions that was assigned the
day before it was due, leaving no opportunity to correct course - just a lot
of nervous "I guess this is what they want?" Hours and hours of time wasted on
a concept that I might have actually understood how to apply but not how to
present in the way they wanted.

~~~
WalterBright
There is value in going down the deadends and figuring things out without
being constantly pushed back onto the road. After all, once out of school
there isn't someone to correct your course for you.

~~~
pier25
This is totally true, but to be able to do that effectively you need a set of
basic skills.

------
agnivade
Most of what I understand is just parents venting their frustration and
despair in life through their kids. Because that is the only thing they have
control over. Because they are unhappy and unsuccessful in their life they
will force their kids to study continuously so that the kid fails and they get
to scold him/her again.

Just my personal experience.

------
cerealbad
children tend to become their parents.

you get less than 10 years to raise your child, then most of the big blocks
are carved. a lot of human learning is imitation play. pushback naturally
occurs for all parents because civilisation extends by destroying it's
foundations. the child's naive critique is sound, most people have never
stopped to question their own motivations and have no refutation to certain
truisms except to feel frustration at cliches. explaining to your child that
what they are doing is perpetuating the cycle they are unconsciously
criticizing is pointless.

instead if you ever get into an argument with your teenager, take their hand,
show them its shadow then say this

"there are five things you can become in life: a shadow, a hand, or a
light..."

"i'll tell you about the other two when you're older."

(the other two are patient when they become parents, and

------
nsainsbury
A wonderful related read that has stuck with me ever since I read it (and hope
to apply when my 1yr old grows up a bit more): [http://carolblack.org/on-the-
wildness-of-children/](http://carolblack.org/on-the-wildness-of-children/)

------
thegabez
The way that 8th grader writes, I'd say his parents are giving him a gift he
yet realizes the value of.

~~~
carb
I don't think the gift is worth the tradeoff. There are many ways to help your
child become a better writer without selfishly burdening them with chores and
more stress.

------
giardini
This kid has an anger problem, not necessarily a parent problem. Phrases such
as "you want to throw something at them, to yell at them to simply leave you
alone" and "hands curl into fists" are angry words. I find them shocking
compared to how I felt about my parents. He speaks of "...parent[s] tell[ing]
you to get off your ass and start doing something productive..." but both the
manner and content of that phrase are over the top.

This child needs to learn to communicate how one feels and what has transpired
during the day. Now if, when this happens, the parents respond with physical
punishment, that is another story.

BTW he doesn't write particularly well.

~~~
Retric
This is how 8th graders communicate. They really don't think or speak like
adults.

It's very common for young males to be either have violent thoughts or be at
least mildly depressed.

As to writing this representative of fairly average writing.
[http://www.oregon.gov/ode/educator-
resources/assessment/Writ...](http://www.oregon.gov/ode/educator-
resources/assessment/Writing38/wrigr8nm-mygrandfather.pdf)

~~~
blatherard
You're right that he's still just a kid, though I think he's in eighth grade,
so roughly 13 years old rather than 8.

