
When Their Shifts End, Uber Drivers Set Up Camp in Parking Lots Across the U.S. - JumpCrisscross
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-01-23/when-their-shifts-end-uber-drivers-set-up-camp-in-parking-lots-across-the-u-s
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chrissnell
I live in small-town Kansas but commute to San Francisco occasionally for my
job, which is based there. I just got back from a trip last week and noticed
something startling about the Uber drivers that ferried me around: never
before have I seen drivers this bad. Twice in one week, my drivers nearly ran
over a pedestrian. On one of those incidents, a guy was walking across a
crosswalk in North Beach in broad daylight. Everybody in this Uber Pool was
screaming "stop!" as the driver ran right up on this poor guy but the driver
seemed oblivious, like the guy was invisible. The only explanation, I think,
is that our driver was extremely fatigued.

I predict that rideshare-pedestrian deaths are going to skyrocket in 2017 as
more drivers take desperate measures to try to get by.

~~~
otoburb
I heard anecdotally that drivers with ratings below 4.6 have their Uber driver
accounts shutdown.

In this instance, how would the rating work for drivers in an UberPool? Does
each person's vote count for only 1/n, or is each one a full vote? If it's
full votes for all riders in a single UberPool ride, all it probably takes are
a couple of mediocre UberPool experiences and the driver is selected out of
the driving pool.

~~~
amyjess
> I heard anecdotally that drivers with ratings below 4.6 have their Uber
> driver accounts shutdown.

Uber and Lyft say they do this, but I've personally seen drivers with lower
ratings kicking around. Anyone know what's up with that?

~~~
thaeli
It's closer to stack ranking than a strict cutoff.

------
zitterbewegung
A lot of times when Uber comes up and people say that Uber should do more to
compensate their drivers. Also, a different person posts that Uber is
subsidizing rides to stay afloat. If we combine these two premises then we
begin to understand that Uber is probably doing all the subsidizing that they
consider reasonable and is burning through investors money to do this and that
their actions are STILL not able to provide for a reasonable job.

~~~
benologist
I think part of the problem is wanting 'driver' to always be a reasonable job,
when shift-length limits are also preventing drivers from working the mammoth
shifts that made it pay like a reasonable job before. People working 70+ hours
to get by were really working something like 2 - 3 low-paying jobs all along,
now they have to be different jobs.

~~~
anigbrowl
I think the problem is the idea that you should have to work 70+ hours a week
just to afford the necessities of life. It's not healthy or sustainable over
the long term.

~~~
vinceguidry
I don't think you can solve that problem. In the article, there's mention that
the drivers don't seem _unhappy_ about their job, just tired.

I think if you give people the _option_ to work 70+ hour weeks to make a
little extra money, there's always going to be a minority of people that
_will_

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maxfurman
This isn't right. I know "drivers can choose," and nobody is forcing these
people to live and work like this. It still feels wrong. One driver mentioned
in the article leased his car from Uber and sleeps in it because it's the only
way he can make enough to afford the payments. Seems like indentured servitude
to me. Uber owes its drivers more.

~~~
1_2__3
> Uber owes its drivers more.

Why? Not trying to be snarky; why do they owe their drivers anything but
incentive to work for them (which seems sufficient, or we wouldn't even be
having this conversation int he first place).

Expecting companies to be morally upstanding is silly and a modern invention
by the right. The right way to solve this is now by complaining about what
Uber "owes" its drivers but in legislation. But we don't want to legislate
businesses, we want to stay "nimble" and "flexible", so this is what we get as
a result. Don't complain about lying in the bed we've made.

~~~
hackuser
> why do they owe their drivers anything but incentive to work for them (which
> seems sufficient, or we wouldn't even be having this conversation int he
> first place).

History is pretty clear on this point: Without protection, workers are at too
great a disadvantage when negotiating with large businesses. Look at working
conditions before unions became powerful and laws and regulations were passed
- they were brutal and wrong.

~~~
kefka
Nahh. The agency the corps hired, the Pinkertons, had full rights to murder
people for not doing their job! I mean, this is laissez faire capitalism - of
course the ones with the money have rights over other humans! /s

Yeah, summed up libertarian beliefs and their logical conclusion in a
nutshell.

~~~
hackuser
_I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count myself a king of infinite space--
were it not that I have bad dreams._

It's the bad dreams that always get you.

------
pizzetta
I wonder if it would make sense in some cities to set-up "internet café" or
capsule hotel-like accommodations[1]. Dense urban areas in other countries
have these "overflow" spaces which diverged somewhat from their original
design have come to serve either laborers, workers from other cities as well
as people stranded by train schedules.

[1][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_cafe_refugee](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_cafe_refugee)

~~~
mindcrime
I'm picturing something like an "Uber stop" somewhat similar to a truck-
stop... combine a gas-station and restaurant with some of those Japanese
"capsule hotel" sleeping pods[1], add wifi and maybe even a few coin-op
washing machines / dryers.

[1]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capsule_hotel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capsule_hotel)

~~~
chadgeidel
I honestly don't know why the US doesn't have these capsule hotels. I can see
so many upsides and very few downsides.

"But the homeless might sleep in them". Better there than on the streets, no?

~~~
sedachv
Cheap short-term (nightly to weekly) housing used to be all over the United
States in the form of dormitories (YMCA was huge), SROs (single room
occupancy), cage hotels, flophouses, and boarding houses. Because of zoning
and building code changes this kind of housing essentially stopped being built
after WWII.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flophouse#Cage_hotels_in_the_U...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flophouse#Cage_hotels_in_the_United_States)

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patmcguire
And this is _with_ heavy Uber subsidies... if Uber manages to make a profit
off of market rate while still paying their fixed costs (big if), it's going
to be even worse for drivers.

~~~
1812Overture
They just have to stay afloat until they can cut out the drivers entirely.

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_dark_matter_
> The company proudly proclaims that the share of drivers who work less than
> 10 hours a week has climbed to more than 60 percent

I'm very interested in these kinds of stats. I'd imagine this is like any
other distribution - long, long tailed; with lots of drivers who have driven
once, twice, or what have you. Give me the stats on heavy drivers. What
fraction of drivers work > 40 hours a week? What fraction of miles driven are
driven by heavy drivers? What fraction of <10 hour a week drivers have other
jobs? How many hours a week does an Uber driver without another job drive on
average?

The company is giving us just the slice that looks good. I'm sure if you
started diving into these questions, it wouldn't be pretty.

~~~
calvinbhai
You are asking the right question. And Uber will never share answers to such
questions :)

Even if 90% of Uber drivers drive <10 hr a week, its quite possible that more
than 90% of the total ride time is be drivers who drive ~24 hrs a day.

In India, most Uber drivers I spoke to had a common thread. They buy new car,
slog day and night to pay off the monthly payments, which means sleep for 3-4
hrs, work for 12 - 14 hrs.

Sleeping they do, wherever they'd find a safe place to park the car, and sign
out of the Uber app. Basically no life of their own, until they pay off the
car.

For many, lured by Uber's scheme of 'leasing to buy' cars scheme, once they
have had the car for a month, its difficult to get out of that scheme because
of loss aversion, and hope of independence after slogging for 3 to 4 years.

~~~
_dark_matter_
It is indentured slavery. I hate to say it, but my fellow tech workers are
embarrassing us. We need to stand up for these workers. How many people that
work at Uber would disagree with this practice but never speak up about it?

~~~
EdHominem
What though, is wrong with it?

As far as I can see, simply that the same company helps them get the loan is
the same one that pays them to drive. And also that they probably buy new cars
and are upside down on the loan as soon as they drive off the lot.

~~~
calvinbhai
I agree with you that these drivers are getting loans only because Uber and
its partners are willing give, and in return gobble up a huge share of the
driver's earnings.

But, isn't that like asking 'whats wrong in giving subprime loans?'

The way I see it, at least for Uber drivers in US getting such loans from
Santander+Uber, its a raw deal.

In 4-6 years if they pay off the car as earnings continue to slide, they'll be
holding onto a car which has 200K+ to 400K+ miles on it and worth not much.
And in 4 years there's a very very good possibility that short haul rides
could be fully autonomous.

~~~
EdHominem
Well, it's certainly a deal than neither of us would take, but if the person
bought intelligently and drove conservatively, it could be a win for them.

Certainly to the point where I don't want to forbid them making that contract
if they see fit. And the fact that Uber profits as well doesn't change the
driver's rights in dealing with them. If the driver got a separate loan from
the bank we wouldn't be having this discussion. Smart or not, it's their
right.

The issue is all in the one company having too much control - like miners in a
company town being under the thumb of a landlord and boss who were the same
and shared information about the employee. That does bother me and I might
want to pass a law to forbid that, to ensure there's a wall between those
roles.

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doozy
In Dickens' time kids were chained to the machines and beds were rented per
shift, so they were always kept warm.

Now it's also adults in the prime of their earning years and the bed is now
gone, the baron robbers of Silicon Valley took the last perk of the working
man.

I wonder how this age will be remembered in a couple of centuries.

------
tedunangst
It's not just about the $80000 salary. It's about the company perks, like
organized camping trips.

------
phkahler
I just read an article about obsolete features in homes. One was garages. They
claimed the rise of ride sharing and self driving cars would mean people need
less space to store their cars. My first thought was that those things would
not mean less driving going on, perhaps fewer total cars, but then where would
those self driving and uber cars be stored?

~~~
CamelCaseName
Well storage space would first and foremost decline substantially as cars
spend a huge amount of time on the road. So instead of sitting in a parking
spot 23 hours a day, it would sit there maybe 6-8 hours a day (at night)

So where does it stay during those 6-8 hours? Well why not out in the streets
in residential areas where it's as close as possible to people who would
likely be commuting early in the morning. The streets would be fairly empty
and it wouldn't be an issue because self driving cars would easily maneuver
themselves.

This would be a scenario where all cars are owned by some organization (e.g.
uber, the government, etc.) and then rented per trip by users. The result is
cost savings for everyone involved.

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a3n
"... and how long to drive."

Hopefully there won't be many fatigue related accidents. But no worries for
Uber, the drivers aren't employees!

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josefresco
The sharing economy for parking lots and bathrooms.

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DigitalJack
I love uber. When we were snowed in and my wife needed to get to the airport,
an uber driver in a Tahoe got the job done.

However, all the financial news I read about is how much money uber is losing.

My question is, where does it go? Insurance? Legal municipal wrangling?
Embezzlement?

Also, looks like a startup opportunity for providing Uber drivers a safe place
to spend the night (self storage style).

~~~
prawn
Paying drivers more than they are making from customers.

~~~
DigitalJack
So it's a game of "who can lose money the longest?"

I guess the customer's win for as long as the VCs want to pour money into it.
It's hard for me to believe that's a winning strategy... even if you outlast
the competition, eventually you have to start making money and as soon as you
raise prices again, competition can start back up.

I'm probably underestimating network effects.

~~~
CamelCaseName
Simply because you are burning cash, doesn't mean that the value of your
company is falling.

I know it's tempting to see it that way, especially since uber is as large as
it is, but the winning strategy is also to survive as the dominant player
until self-driving cars are commonplace.

Then you replace the drivers with cars, and thanks to your network you have a
huge first mover advantage in the driverless taxi industry. It's during the
initial period of this stage that you would see the most profits, and then as
more companies enter the market you would begin to have to compete on price
and quality.

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ddp
Awesome! India here we come!

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ilaksh
There isn't enough competition even though Lyft is trying and the regulation
attempts are ineffective.

Maybe an app or something could make regulation more effective somehow.

~~~
J5892
"We're the Uber of Uber regulations!"

