
Ask HN: iPhone released: discouraged as I am? - oldgregg
My first response: wow, this is an amazing device -- geo-location services are finally here! -- can't wait to pick one up.<p>But now I'm just depressed.<p>I'm depressed because people I know who have been working on great products are going to have an impossible time competing with Cupertino - every ajax desktop, data backup/sync, ???.<p>I'm depressed because apple apparently hates open-anything. Jobs smirks "oh hey we're going to let you push <i>icon</i> updates to the phone" -- WTF? Oh thank you great benevolent one. Then they proudly announce they had approved 4,000 developers. Nevermind the 21,000 we arbitrarily dicked over.<p>For developers it seems like the only upside is that someone is finally kicking mobile carriers in the teeth --  long since overdue.<p>In five years will we be missing Microsoft?  :-/
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edw519
"But now I'm just depressed."

Why? Because the landscape has changed?

People affected by this will just have to adapt and find their place in the
new landscape. That's all.

The pie is so big there's room for everybody. And if you still don't think so,
there are plenty of other pies no one has noticed yet. You just gotta find
them.

Nothing to be "depressed" about. Happens all the time.

OTOH, this is an excellent example of the advantages of being small and nimble
- you can adapt quickly while the big boys are stuck struggling.

~~~
jmatt
Apple is fascist. The iPhone specifically.

Microsoft in comparison looks like a beautiful tour de force of openness. Free
(arguably) open CIL, languages, document format, IDE, documentation. No one
DECIDES who can develop on windows mobile. Or for that matter most other SDKs.
As for the cost, absolute worst case for an individual - about $1k a year to
get an MSDN subscription.

Meanwhile 4000 devs are going to make ALL the applications that the masses
could ever want on an iPhone. Why not just open it up for $100/$300? Heck, why
isn't it free to push open source projects? Why isn't it free to push to your
own iPhone? Why hasn't anyone asked Apple these questions? This is insane. If
Microsoft tried something this crazy everyone would be in an uproar. This will
give a huge advantage to large or "in the know" tech companies. I don't see
the advantage to the consumer. The iPhone SDK is already relatively locked
down so I don't want to hear security.

This being said I have an iPhone and Macbook. They are beautiful elegant
machines. They work great. The interface is excellent. FreeBSD is $$$$.
They've replaced my linux boxes at home. My iPhone completely pwns my old
samsung blackjack. I actually use the internet on my iPhone and I enjoy using
it.

I am frustrated that I can't push my iPhone apps from my macbook to my actual
iPhone. I'm frustrated that I can't get some of my linux apps to work in OS X.
It seems like they have it out for open source / small business / hackers. I
could jail break my iPhone, but I shouldn't have to. I could install Xen and
Linux, but I shouldn't have to. Sadly, I would be happy if Apple gave us the
same choices as Microsoft. That should not be too much to ask.

EDITED: Syntax and a sentence or two.

~~~
allenbrunson
_No one DECIDES who can develop on windows mobile._

which might have something to do with why it's an ugly, unpleasant mess.

great technical products are not produced via democracy. they're almost always
the vision of just a few people.

 _Meanwhile 4000 devs are going to make ALL the applications that the masses
could ever want on an iPhone._

that's patently absurd. apple randomly picked 4000 iphone devs to let into the
beta program. that's all. they will let in more later, once they've gotten
feedback from the first crop, and understand better how the process will work.

 _I'm frustrated that I can't get some of my linux apps to work in OS X._

the linux community is not exactly known for making user-friendly apps. it's
only natural that there would be a disconnect between their apps and macosx.

heck, i could spend all day addressing the misconceptions and downright
falsehoods in this comment, but it sounds like you've already made up your
mind.

~~~
stevecooperorg
_great technical products are [...] almost always the vision of just a few
people._

Platforms, yes -- consistency goes a long way there, and a few coherent voices
can build something where all the pieces work well together.

Applications? 'the talented few' still need access to the platform. The
question is, is there a way for a few, talented people to develop and deploy
the killer iPhone app?

That's not a rhetorical question -- is there such a route?

~~~
allenbrunson
i believe that there very much is. the iphone sdk is really, really good. you
can get up to speed quickly.

it's a shame that apple is not giving out many of the developer keys yet. but
if you're serious about this, that shouldn't be much of an impediment. you can
still develop for the iphone simulator. and if you really, really need to see
your app on a real iphone, you can jailbreak your phone. it's not what apple
wants you to do, of course, but i really doubt they're going to disqualify
developers who use that method for testing.

------
paulv
The only problems I have with the iPhone is that Apple decides what software
is available and that makes it extremely difficult to write free software for
it. There's _no_ reason in 2008 that people should be excited about
(effectively) a computer that is actively free software unfriendly. The iPhone
seems defective by design. The thing that makes me sad is that no one --
_particularly_ the people calling themselves hackers -- seems to care...

~~~
axod
I would care if the existing software on the iPhone was really lacking. I
actually wrote a new firmware for the Archos multimedia jukebox for that
reason - the original software absolutely sucked. Archos then actually
threatened to sue me etc etc. Good times, good times...

Anyhow. Games consoles are pretty closed, I don't have a problems with the
iPhone being closed to be honest. It has a very capabale web browser, which
means you can run pretty much anything you like anyway.

~~~
LogicHoleFlaw
_Games consoles are pretty closed_

Don't remind me :(

That's one of the biggest obstacles to independent innovation in gaming today.
The PC is the current bastion of the small developer but PC gaming itself is
in decline. We need more open access to the console space.

------
jws
I think the notification system will work out. Apparently you can use it to
play a sound, "badge" an icon, or display a custom message. That sounds
limited, but I think it completely encompasses the vocabulary of the user
interface. Think of how Apple's programs work, and the only think I think of
immediately missing is an action button or two on the "display a custom
message", perhaps that will be there, maybe not, I can still attract the user
to interact with my program and that makes me happy.

As one of the 21,000 "dicked over" developers, I am still hopeful that they
will open the floodgate enough days before July 11th to let me deploy on Day 1
and stake my ground against any potential competitor before they are the
incumbent. The nature of my application makes the emulator mostly useless, but
I have written a suite of algorithms and when I learn the performance
characteristics of the iPhone hardware I will be able to choose and tune
rapidly to deliver the best user experience. It has been a lot of extra work
that I could better spent if I could have chosen and tuned along the way, but
I also understand their desire to limit load from the beta program. I suppose
what I would have done differently is make a track for people whose
applications need to run natively and made room for them... but that would
probably be abused.

I don't see that mobile carriers got kicked in the teeth here. AT&T appears to
be loaning you $200 for a stream of 24 monthly $10 payments. That works out to
about a 15% return on their money. Then read the articles about AT&T no longer
paying a monthly share to Apple and justifying it "because they are using that
to subsidize the phones". I call bullshit. The $10/mo more than covers the
$200 subsidy.

~~~
elai
Why didn't you run the program on a jailbroken iphone? The performance
characteristics/quirks/etc would be far more similar to the "official iphone"
vs. the simulator

~~~
jws
That's a good idea, probably better than the way I have gone. If I personally
knew anyone with a jailbroken iPhone and I saw that the process of loading and
running was wrinkle free I might do it. I've recently spent far too much time
wrestling strange build and run environments to want to get involved in
another. At least my work on the algorithm suite has improved my understanding
of the problem and possibly my solution. Time spent wrestling with a platform
is mostly lost.

------
nickb
Gotta admit, I was surprised by their new apps. They are absolutely stunning.
I heard rumors some time ago that Apple would offload their web apps (.Mac) to
Google. Well, these new apps look better (and hopefully work as advertised)
than Google's apps. For a company that only dabbles in web development, these
new MobileMe apps change all that. They've raised the bar very high indeed.

------
pkaler
Having worked on the XBox 360, Sony PS3, Sony PSP this is a _HUGE_
improvement.

The walled garden is not as huge an impediment as you believe it to be. Figure
out if it is fiscally prudent for your organization to work on the iPhone
platform. If not, move on. There are a ton of ideas that need to be worked on
on a wide range of platforms.

------
jsjenkins168
You are definitely not alone. I'm pretty worried myself. A phone to
realistically compete with the iPhone (especially at its new lower price
point) is nowhere in site and the walled garden seems to grow with each Apple
announcement.

AppStore could be another Facebook platform situation where Apple kills
startups at will simply by releasing their own version of a application. And
Apple wont need to push icon updates, their apps can run as background
services just fine.

I'd like to be optimistic about other emerging mobile platforms, but everyone
else is so dreadfully far behind and thats a bit concerning for a developer.

------
allenbrunson
it's hardly the case that the other 21k developers got "dicked over!" apple
decided they were only going to let a few in during the beta period. i bet the
situation will be rectified at some point after the app store launches.

the only thing those 4k developers got that the rest of us didn't is a key to
install apps onto real iphone hardware. everybody else can still develop for
the iphone simulator, which is very good. and if you really really need to see
your app on a real iphone, you can go the jailbreak route.

------
andr
Nokia's S60 is a good alternative. A very mature, yet completely open OS.
Touchscreen phones coming, too. It would take years for Apple to catch up with
Nokia's attention to detail. Too bad they are practically non-existent in the
US...

------
gojomo
You could also root for Google Android.

~~~
agotterer
Is there a release date for android yet?

~~~
mechanical_fish
Now, let's not quibble over minor missing features like "physical existence".
Surely they can patch that after the initial release.

Instead, we should think about all the great things we can do with the
imaginary Android phones that are available today. My older model is
relatively limited, but I'm told that the new Android 3e^ _i_ , shipping in
July, will cure cancer!

~~~
icky
> but I'm told that the new Android 3e^i, shipping in July, will cure cancer!

Take _that_ , iPhone!

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=213895>

------
KirinDave
Here's the thing. I think most of us here are rational enough to not degrade
into raw fanboy-ism (is that asking too much?). If Apple didn't keep knocking
the ball out of the park while simultaneously facing a competition that seems
utterly incapable of making an adequate response, we wouldn't be having this
conversation. Sometimes I wonder if Apple's real brilliance is in carefully
choosing which segments of a market to attack... perhaps they have an
incompetence detector?

It's not like open source projects like OpenMoko haven't had a chance to make
an amazing phone. Indeed, I'm frustrated because before the iPhone
announcement, the OpenMoko looked like a top-of-the-line sort of gadget, and
then Apple leapfrogs all their efforts on the first try. But I want a great
phone, so now I'm stuck with AT&T and buying an iPhone.

If these independent "great products" want to compete, perhaps they need to
start forming explicit alliances with other service providers to form an
integrated solution that people want. It's very clear that at least the Apple-
buying public wants that kind of integration.

------
dhotson
I actually think this is going to be a fantastic opportunity for startups..
even though Apple has built some pretty high walls for developers

I'm from Australia and mobile internet is currently just way too expensive and
so nobody uses it. If the iPhone (and competitors) can drive demand and push
prices down, it could really open up some opportunities for developers working
on applications for mobiles.

------
BrandonM
You could always go with Nokia's S60 devices. I've been extremely happy with
my N82 so far, and there's also the N95 or the E90. Seriously, give them a
look. You can install whatever you want without ridiculous workarounds, and
they are all more capable devices than the iPhone.

~~~
oldgregg
I agree that technically there are some good devices out there-- but in 18
months when Apple has the market completely wrapped up what's the point?

~~~
BrandonM
Honestly? What echo chamber do you live in? I don't know anyone who owns or is
even considering buying an iPhone.

~~~
martey
I only know one person who owns a Nokia smartphone (and at least eight who
have iPhones). He bought it last summer (when the cheapest iPhone was $499)
for $200.

Since he wanted cheap email on the go, the iPhone was too expensive for him. I
have read a lot of articles about the fact that the iPhone now includes GPS is
a game-changer, but I think that the price cut to $199 is more important.

------
LKM
Maybe we should wait to hear whether they remaining devs will be approved at a
later date. I've seen people approved with absolutely no track record
whatsoever, so the requirements can't be too stringent.

------
bprater
We needed a leader in cell phones. Until now, it was such a completely
disjointed landscape that developing an app for phones was a walk in a field
of mines. Companies were busy grabbing for land, but weren't working hard to
create a great device. Maybe this is that start of focusing how to create
awesome mobile applications for the masses.

I think we are witnessing a pivotable moment in history.

~~~
axod
Mobile web is the next big thing!!!! WAP!

~~~
d0mine
I hope you are being sarcastic.

~~~
axod
Erm yes ;)

------
bkbleikamp
Buy Apple stock :)

------
Tichy
I will prefer open source phones to the iPhone, of that I am sure. Except I
don't like Android much (from a developer's point of view), and Linux on the
phone seems to be still far away. For the time being it's like whatever, ALL
phones suck, the iPhone just sucks a little less (hopefully).

------
LPTS
No my friend you have it all wrong. The badge updates are a fine solution for
now. Everything is fine, my friend.

I'm a bit concerned with your tone. It's almost as if you don't have faith
that the Steve will do what is right. Has he not given us the iPhone, freed us
from shitty cell phones, and gifted us, from some unknowable realm only he
walks in, this beautiful 15 in. macbook pro I am typing on. After all the
Steve did, you still want to leave the cult? In spite of everything, you just
have to see the spear marks and stick your finger in. In your dark night, you
even compare our savior (Steve) to microsoft. Luckily for you, the Steve's
ability to make totally awesome gizmo's with a touch of LSD in each one is
only parrelleled by his limitless compassion, and he is willing to forgive
you, if only you would open your heart up to his forgiveness.

Why don't you sit down and talk for a bit, doubting thomas? You are free to
leave, just sit down and talk for a minute first, my friend. We're not going
to stop you from leaving. Just sit down and chat first.

~~~
immad
Wow, I hope that last paragraph is some level of sarcasm that is beyond me or
an extract from something, because it sounds ridiculous.

~~~
LPTS
It was an extract from the south park where stan, kyle, and cartman join the
david blaine cult and kyle wants to leave, and the shaved head cult people say
something almost exactly like that.

~~~
immad
Ah good! my faith is restored. Good quote :)

------
xlnt
maybe if you stopped wishing people would be "kicked in the teeth" you'd be a
happier person. what you need is a better attitude. as you say, apple made
something amazing. we should all rejoice.

