
Transport app Citymapper trials its own smart bus service in London - seventyhorses
https://venturebeat.com/2017/05/08/transport-app-citymapper-trials-its-own-smart-bus-and-transport-service-in-london/
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edgyswingset
The article says:

> Imagine if every bus, boat, and train in London was kitted out with sensors
> and counters, with the data made available to third-party service providers
> — this could help cities manage transport infrastructure far more
> effectively.

And my reaction is, "Imagine if we had more buses and investment in public
infrastructure to begin with."

In fairness, public infrastructure is already miles better in London than most
U.S. cities. So the idea of tricked out buses with good smartphone integration
seems a lot more realistic to me than if this were done in the U.S.

~~~
calpaterson
>> Imagine if every bus, boat, and train in London was kitted out with sensors
and counters, with the data made available to third-party service providers —
this could help cities manage transport infrastructure far more effectively.

> And my reaction is, "Imagine if we had more buses and investment in public
> infrastructure to begin with."

Well in London all the bus and train data is made available to third-party
service providers. That is how citymapper exists

~~~
squeaky-clean
I think they meant it more along the lines of "I'd rather have my bus be on
time than have my smartphone tell me exactly how late it will be."

~~~
DINKDINK
Good luck with on-time buses in London traffic.

~~~
corobo
Having said that they're frequent enough if you're an out-of-towner they feel
like they're running perfectly on time.

If a bus is late where I'm from it just vanishes - you can be watching
Arriva's live map and its route blip will just disappear, enjoy waiting for
the next one (minimum half hour wait, repeat if that one's running late too)

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f_allwein
Hmm. Making your app profitable by running a fleet of buses seems a bit...
ambitious.

Background: Everybody in London uses Citymapper and nobody uses Google Maps.
It is a great app. London Buses are also very good. As has been pointed out,
they have GPS sensors. There is also a sophisticated infrastructure behind
them, e.g. a control room that tells drivers to turn around and go back mid-
rout if the buses are too unevenly distributed. See e.g. the BBC's Route
Masters documentary if you can find it:
[http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b02znsx2](http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b02znsx2)

As has also been pointed out here, London Transport does not make a profit
(although their public funding is constantly shrinking). So any new entrant
has to be more profitable than them with a much smaller market share. Wonder
if that is possible if you only differentiate yourself by technology. We'll
see.

~~~
ForHackernews
In my experience, Google Maps is really terrible outside the United States. It
doesn't seem to understand that in the UK, a narrow country lane might have a
speed limit of 60 mph, but nobody could ever drive that speed on it. It's
constantly proposing insane detours off A roads onto back lanes obstructed by
sheep and farm equipment.

Unlike Citymapper, Google Maps doesn't have a notion of multimodal transport:
cycling to a train station, for example. Citymapper also doesn't "lose" your
in-progress journey if you click the wrong thing or close the app.

~~~
talldan
I don't think that's true. Google maps uses average speed on roads to estimate
the fastest route, not the speed limit.

If they used the speed limit the app would never take traffic and other
conditions into account, which it clearly does.

Having said that, I have experienced a crazy route now and then, but I think
it's often caused by incorrect map updates.

~~~
ForHackernews
Maybe they don't have enough Android-carrying traffic on rural lanes to
calculate an average speed?

All I know is I frequently get really goofy route suggestions from Google Maps
that seem totally clueless about the difficulty of driving narrow UK
backroads.

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nhf
This sounds a lot like the on-demand(ish) bus service called Bridj which just
shut down here in Boston. [1] They promised popup bus routes just like
Citymapper has, but it ended up that a lot of the "routes" they constructed
were essentially missing gaps in the MBTA's bus/subway system.

The bus route generation tool that they mention seems to be very promising.
Hopefully the realtime demand data is the piece that Bridj was missing, as it
would be very cool to see this kind of stuff take off in other areas. I wish
them all the success in the world - hopefully this works out for them.

[1] [https://www.theverge.com/2017/5/1/15501764/bridj-on-
demand-b...](https://www.theverge.com/2017/5/1/15501764/bridj-on-demand-bus-
startup-fail-ford)

~~~
Grue3
There's a functioning service called Chariot in Bay Area (and Austin, for some
reason). [1] They seem to have quite a lot of routes, although most of them
are just charter routes for the big tech companies.

[1] [https://www.chariot.com/](https://www.chariot.com/)

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tabeth
I wonder if it is actually possible to make money in the _commoditized_
transportation business. Virtually all government transportation organizations
lose money -- luckily for them they're governmentally funded (MBTA loses money
[1], which is relevant since there was recently a bus service in Boston that
shut down).

[1] [https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2016/02/28/mbta-shrinks-
it...](https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2016/02/28/mbta-shrinks-its-
deficit/ROdjjtVNuS1L81f7qdsOXK/story.html)

~~~
martinald
There are quite a few exceptions to this. Sort the second table on this page
by %age:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio)

FWIW TfL in London has to break even across all modes (operationally, at
least) by 2018.

You'll notice there is an exceptionally high correlation between operational
returns and city density.

~~~
askvictor
I wonder if they factor in the broader economic benefits of public transport
(or costs of a lack thereof) into 'breaking even'. Cut bus services, more
people drive, take longer to get to work, are now stressed, walk less, put
more ​strain on the health care system. I'm guessing they don't, being
politicians and all...

~~~
martinald
No, they don't. This is purely financial.

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anguswithgusto
Cool initiative. I've yet to find a reason to switch from Transit to
Citymapper in NYC, but it's always exciting to see pure tech companies (like
Snapchat) try their hand at physical products.

The Citymapper folks are obviously very smart and I am stoked to see how this
pilot project works out!

~~~
2manyredirects
Interesting comment regarding Transit - as a Londoner who went to NYC for the
first time last year I didn't even contemplate looking up another app; I just
opened up CityMapper and it said "It looks like you're in New York. Switch
City?", so it's pretty seamless.

A few years ago I'd definitely have trawled the App Store and I'm sure I'd
have found Transit, but it just goes to show the power of a good, reliable
interface and considered rollout to ensure you're always the go-to product if
someone is aware of you.

~~~
k-mcgrady
This is my favourite thing about Citymapper. I use it everyday (multiple
times) in London. Went to Milan for the weekend and was able to continue using
the same app. It made figuring out another transit system incredibly simple.
It's becoming like Uber for me in the sense that when I go somewhere Uber
doesn't support getting around becomes something that takes quite a lot of
figuring out.

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callesgg
Is is simply a small buss run by a private company?

I don't understand why it is a "smart buss".

~~~
simonw
"It’s got tracking software for real time integration with the app, passenger
counting, and a driver app.

We built software for everything, including realtime operational control to
driver management to scheduling systems. We’re reinventing how to think about
all of these in the realtime world. We’ve taken systems that haven’t
traditionally talked to each other and integrated them."

~~~
noja
What does that _mean_? What is the result?

To me it seems like a van on a short bus route. What does all the technology
add on top of this?

~~~
corobo
Bus on its way to you, your app says "There are 12 seats free, 10 standing on
this bus" possibly even showing you which seats are free. Saves you catching a
bus where you're crammed in like sardines.

Possibly even more functional uses such as "The wheelchair space is available"

~~~
noja
But I'm going to get the bus anyway. If it re-routed me to alternative
transport I suppose that would be helpful.

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sotojuan
I really enjoy city mapper but find their "search" to be subpar in NYC. Search
by address works fine, but if you search a place by name sometimes gives me
random places in the other side of the country.

~~~
yexponential
Yeah, its quite the same in London. In that case I switch to maps, but it
isn't very often for me.

~~~
mprovost
In London I'll often use Google Maps to search for the business that I'm
looking for, then find the closest tube stop on the map and switch to
Citymapper to navigate there.

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mstade
Does anyone know how citymapper makes money; or if they aren't making any
money yet what's their path to profitability?

~~~
vimoranon
According to Glassdoor they save money by treating staff like shit, make them
work crazy hours and pay them inappropriately. But hey, you work for a great
vision.

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whywhywhywhy
Why not sell your data to actual public transport to make their systems
better?

Why must startups keep reinventing busses (without the poor people)

~~~
underwater
Busses without the poor people seems to be an American dream. In Australia and
London it's "acceptable" to ride the bus, but in The Bay Area at least it
seemed to be for "weirdos" only.

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cabalamat
When they said smart bus I imagined they meant the routes were determined in
real time according to where people wanted to go.

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andreasklinger
My guess is that this is a PoC to show the value of their data to other cities

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ainiriand
Pay individually for a service that could be much better with collective
funding. I dont see the good in this approach.

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JackFr
It seems the next step in transport disruption. If Uber and Lyft can
revolutionize taxicabs, why not take a shot at sclerotic and inefficient
public transport.

~~~
Doctor_Fegg
Public transport in London is neither sclerotic nor inefficient.

~~~
pmyteh
Indeed; it was one of the things I liked best about living there. The buses
were spectacularly frequent, clean, cheap, and had convenient connections with
tube and rail. A triumph, all things considered.

~~~
corobo
I love using the bus when I'm in London for work, none of the hustle and
bustle of the tubes with approximately the same run time between places during
the times I travel (rush hours)

They're a breath of fresh air... literally, because they're also all electric
apparently.

~~~
nrki
Well, some of them are electric.

Most are hybrid diesels. :)

~~~
corobo
Ah fair enough, I've only seen/acknowledged the electric ones then, probably
the route I take (Euston to Holborn and back)

