
Bill Gates wants to reinvent the toilet for mankind - juiceandjuice
http://www.physorg.com/wire-news/72536602/reinventing-the-toilet-for-safe-and-affordable-sanitation.html
======
gjm11
Blogspam, as usual from physorg.

Original: [http://home.tudelft.nl/en/current/latest-
news/article/detail...](http://home.tudelft.nl/en/current/latest-
news/article/detail/tu-delft-vindt-toilet-opnieuw-uit-voor-veilig-en-
betaalbaar-sanitair/) which, unlike the physorg blogspam, includes links to
sources with more information.

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bambax
> _In the first step of Delft University's new technical approach, the human
> waste will be dried. Then the waste will be gasified using plasma, which is
> created by microwaves in tailor-made equipment._ (etc)

Really?

The brother of my grandfather lived on a farm for all of his life; there was
never any kind of toilets on the farm. While there always was access to clean
water from a well (which may not be the case in the poorer parts of the
world), running water was installed inside the "house" only in the early
sixties. "House" is between quotes because it looked more like "the part of
the stable to be used by humans".

We used to go there often during the summer. We did our business behind the
house, like everyone. We loved everything there.

And what about health? My grandfather's brother died past 80; when he died his
wife moved to the "city" where she lived to see her 94th birthday.

They would've had a hard time believing people would ever want to gasify their
poo with "plasma created by microwaves".

In fact, so do I.

~~~
simonsarris
I think you completely missed the point.

The article is talking about developing countries with poor sanitation.
Banupur, for instance, has a population of 58,000 per square mile.

What the the population density on your grandfather's farm? Do you think doing
your business behind a house scales to 58,000 per square mile?

~~~
bambax
> _Do you think doing your business behind a house scales to 58,000 per square
> mile?_

I don't know, but I wouldn't answer "of course not" right away, as you seem to
assume. How do these people currently cope?

My point was not that everyone should do as my grandfather's brother, twenty
years ago. I'm just wondering why we suddenly need so much technology to solve
a problem that's always been with us and that didn't use to be so terrifying.

I'm wondering if we're afraid of "human waste" a little more than we should?
I'm wondering if maybe there are simpler solutions that would scale a lot
more, be a lot cheaper and a lot less disruptive than getting everyone to
defecate in a microwave oven. (How do you build the devices? How do you get
them to the people who will be using them? How do you make people use them?
How to you maintain them? How do you replace them when they're broken? What do
you do with the broken ones...?)

I read a story some time ago (on HN maybe?) about how very simple advice had
tremendous effects on people's health. Telling people to wash both hands after
going to the bathroom, for instance, instead of just the one they use to clean
themselves, yielded incredible results.

I may be wrong, but this project, as described in the original article,
doesn't sound right.

~~~
rodh257
It sounds like you are basically saying there is not really a problem as long
as you wash your hands?

Have a look at some of the health problems that come up due to the fact that
around 6-700 million people in india defecate openly.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_in_...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_in_India)

"In India there are 700 million people who do not have access to safe and
hygienic toilets. The waterborne diseases this causes kill 500,000 children
every year, mostly from diarrhea,"

[http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Health/20071102/toilet_summit_0711...](http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Health/20071102/toilet_summit_071102/)

While yes the proposed solution does sound complex, it's better to try and
make it work than just let the spread of disease continue

~~~
bambax
_Effect of Intensive Handwashing Promotion on Childhood Diarrhea in High-Risk
Communities in Pakistan_

 _Results: Children younger than 15 years living in households that received
handwashing promotion and plain soap had a 53% lower incidence of diarrhea
(95% confidence interval [CI], –65% to –41%) compared with children living in
control neighborhoods. Infants living in households that received handwashing
promotion and plain soap had 39% fewer days with diarrhea (95% CI, –61% to
–16%) vs infants living in control neighborhoods. Severely malnourished
children (weight for age z score, <–3.0) younger than 5 years living in
households that received handwashing promotion and plain soap had 42% fewer
days with diarrhea (95% CI, –69% to –16%) vs severely malnourished children in
the control group. Similar reductions in diarrhea were observed among children
living in households receiving antibacterial soap._

<http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/291/21/2547.full>

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Jacob4u2
Reminds me of a Radiolab podcast about parasites and the improvement of
productivity in the deep south as a result of the introduction of outhouses.

<http://www.radiolab.org/2009/sep/07/>

(it's the part about farmers, not sure about a specific seek to point, sorry
it's been a while)

------
pesco
> _microwave plasma gasification may be energy self-sufficient, provided that
> [...] high throughput of human waste matter can be obtained._

EPIC way to say "for god's sake keep shitting"

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rbanffy
So, you don't have sanitation, but, somehow, they figure out you would be able
to maintain and operate a self-sustaining facility that gasifies your waste
using microwave heated plasma that's also, somehow, compact enough you don't
have to build the sanitation system you didn't have in the first place to
drive your waste into the facility.

What baffles me is that the people bright enough to invent it didn't come with
a similarly brilliant excuse to deploy it.

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watmough
Aren't there already cheap composting toilets that safely and relatively
odorlessly compost human waste, without he assistance of a bunch of grant-
hungry, plasma torch-wielding scientists.

If I recall, you can't pee in them due to ammonia, but there are separate ways
to handle fluid wastes.

Perhaps the articles is just trying to disguise the use of incinerators.

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synnik
Solar composting outhouses? Just like already exist in some campgrounds?

Is this really a problem that needs a new solution?

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epo
Aren't they over-thinking this a bit? This seems like the Microsoft-ification
of crapper design, i.e. gratuitously complicated, unmaintainable and
essentially irrelevant to the basic problem.

We are talking mostly about places without proper sanitation, how are they
supposed to have (and sustain) facilities for generating plasma?

Left to itself human waste degrades and the residue can be used for fertilizer
or maybe even fuel. A cesspit or septic tank provides for safe storage until
it is ready for disposal, preferably in a way that aids the local population.

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rodh257
I'm glad Bill is putting some money towards this. It seems quite complex but
if they can make it cheap and easily maintainable it could save a lot of
lives.

For anyone who doesn't think this is a big problem, picture taking DOUBLE the
population of the USA, moving them to an area ~1/3 the size and having them
defecate in the open with no sanitation. This (from what I've read) is pretty
much the situation in India, where more people have mobile phones than access
to proper toilets.

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jleader
If it needs "high throughput of human waste matter", it's not a toilet, it's a
sewage treatment plant.

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matmann2001
"We will apply microwave technology to transform human waste into
electricity."

Not sure how this works, but it sounds like it would only worsen the
situation.

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scythe
How robust can you make a system that seems to require constant energy input?
That is to say, what if nobody shits in it for a while?

~~~
darklajid
There's a technology called - battery. Some hold energy for quite a while. And
the article mentions Rwanda. If the prime market is this huge continent, then
you might be able to use the sun to augment the "other energy source".

I think it's interesting to notice that most (I try hard not to write all)
comments so far seem to be armchair designer style. It's like 'build the next
toilet' is a new bike shed.

Yeah, I'm skeptical as well, but assuming that the scientists are full of ..
err - just want to grab the money and have no clue what they are talking about
seems weird to me..

------
VladRussian
good that he decided to address the issue at the receiving side of the system,
not at the producing - i mean, with his money he could have commissioned a
some "human anatomy and physiology improvement" research ...

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pitdesi
This is a very worthy cause, but I think they might be overdoing it. The issue
is major - the number of people without access to toilets is roughly
equivalent to the number of people with internet access... last chart of this
infographic: [http://feefighters.com/blog/ff_infographic/tech-boom-or-
bubb...](http://feefighters.com/blog/ff_infographic/tech-boom-or-bubble-lets-
look-at-the-data/)

------
TerraHertz
Considering Bill Gate's previous on-record comment about how improved
vaccination programs could _reduce_ population, I wouldn't be surprised if
there'll be some 'accidental consequences' of this system. How much fertility
reduction do you get if everyone sitting on a 'microwave toilet' has their
testicles 'slightly' cooked?

Only partly joking. Gates has signed on with the Bilderbergers, and their
clearly stated objectives are to radically reduce world population by any
means and as soon as possible. Figures in the range 500 million to 900 million
(survivors) frequently pop up in Bilderberger-related stories.

One thing to watch would be the financial estimates. Keeping technology like
that working in remote/undeveloped locations won't be cheap. If the Gates
Foundation is going to foot the bill for operational servicing of the
'microwave toilets' on a large scale, then...

~~~
forensic
Have any evidence to support this Alex Jones drivel?

Bill Gates has done more for the poor than all the conspiracy theorists in the
world combined.

~~~
TerraHertz
"The world today has 6.8 billion people... that's headed up to about 9
billion. Now if we do a really great job on new vaccines, health care,
reproductive health services, we could lower that by perhaps 10 or 15
percent." \-- Bill Gates (in public speech with published video) I saw the
video, the quote is correct. Don't have link handy, find it yourself. Did he
mis-speak? Maybe. He never corrected it, despite it going viral.

~~~
forensic
I've seen the video and the context is clear. He's talking about reducing the
population growth by 10-15%. Why is this bad?
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WQtRI7A064>

I've heard Alex Jones. I don't see any evidence that the Bilderberger meetings
are discussing mass murder.

