

Europe's hottest startup capitals - maris
http://www.wired.co.uk/magazine/archive/2011/09/european-startups

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adnam
Poorly researched filler piece. For example, the article on Barcelona failed
to mention ANY of the truly interesting startups, like Privalia, ExperienceOn,
Letsbonus, Groupalia, and all the companies seeded by Grupo Intercom.

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toumhi
These articles are of very unequal depth. 2 pages for Paris, and only a list
of startups for Amsterdam. Not even a mention of recentlylaunched new york
times-featured appsterdam:
[http://www.nytimes.com/external/venturebeat/2011/06/27/27ven...](http://www.nytimes.com/external/venturebeat/2011/06/27/27venturebeat-
appsterdam-a-haven-for-indie-app-makers-89100.html)

Nice to read about less popular cities though (Tallinn, Helsinki).

~~~
smiler
The reason for the unequal depth is that the article was originally written
for the print magazine - if you see the design of the magazine, you will see
that they have a few featured cities with longer articles and others in brief.
Obviously limited on page count.

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relix
I was looking into moving to Tallinn as an expat. This just sealed the deal.
Any Estonian hackers on here?

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jkaljundi
You're welcome! Have a look at what we do on our startup scene:
<http://garage48.org/> (events + startup co-working hub)
<http://startupleadersclub.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/occtallinn>

~~~
maayank
Sounds interesting!

I'm unable to find a more subtle way to ask this, so I'll be blunt. (pardon!
:)

How is the English literacy in Estonia and in Tallinn in particular? Of
course, if someone expects to live somewhere s/he should be expected to learn
the local language and customs, but if you're there for only a month or two
then it's challenging.

~~~
seikatsu
You'll be fine in English in Tallinn as you would in any other Nordic capital.
Fluent younger/tech circles, ok to get by anywhere from food stores to
hospitals.

~~~
maayank
Tänan!

Any recommended local sites for gauging rent prices? What's the common website
in Estonia for apartment rentals?

(I did look in Google, but in my experience it's best to ask a local for the
defacto leader in rentals)

~~~
akiin
<http://city24.ee/> and <http://www.kv.ee/>

~~~
robtoo
dittoing these sites.

If the grand-parent wants to be central, try Vanalinn (the old town), Kesklinn
(city centre), and Kadriorg.

Also remember that many buildings don't have elevators.

~~~
maayank
Thanks!

Actually that's a very good question that I need to add to my list ("what's
considered city center?").

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harryf
Throwing in a Swiss boot - <http://startupchart.ch/> \- of course Switzerland
is a country, not a capital. But then so is Sweden...

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mvalente
Lisbon, the West Coast of Europe.

Better beaches, better food and better wines than the other West Coast.

Plus: better trams and a better bridge.

Perfect geographic location, halfway between Europe and US.

\-- MV

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drats
<http://www.crowdcube.com/> looks interesting for the UK: "equity-based
crowdfunding". However, it doesn't look like there is a great deal of
activity.

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jkaljundi
One of the great things in the article is choosing both Helsinki and Tallinn,
neighboring cities with just 50 miles apart. That region is really buzzing
with startup activity.

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andynosebone
Tallinn and Helsinki truly booming! Garage48 Tartu
(<http://garage48.org/events>) is on next weekend and after that Steve Blank
is visiting Finland for a week (www.steveblank.fi). Truly great stuff
happening here!

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robjohnson
I wish there was more depth to these articles - it could have been a very
interesting read.

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topbanana
London?

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alxtye
Probably omitted on purpose for reasons unknown.

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shazamjad
Likely because its a UK website - showing cities on mainland Europe.

~~~
harryf
...so it's "top 10 locations I'd rather be right now"?

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eoghan
Dublin?

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leon_
> Europe's hottest startup capitals: Sweden

Come and visit the wonderful town of Sweden ...

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presty
Well, Barcelona is not the capital of Spain..

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iwwr
It's the capital of Catalonia, who many people in Spain would not mind to see
as an independent republic :)

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Tomis
Someone should let Wired know that Tel Aviv is as European as Damascus and
Beirut.

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lell
And that Sweden isn't a city (so it can't be a European capital.)

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SoupIce
Israel is not in Europe. Why is it on the list?

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philwelch
It's culturally closer to Europe than to its Muslim neighbors. Israel competes
in the Eurovision song contest and in the European soccer confederation.

~~~
dazzawazza
If you are going to use that standard then the UK is in North America as it's
culturally closer to US/Canada than France/Germany.

~~~
philwelch
I know British people who don't think the UK is part of Europe. British
discourse often refers to "the continent" as something distinct from Britain.

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atomicdog
You're really pushing it if you're classing Moscow and Tel Aviv as "European"
cities...

~~~
smiler
Israel is thought of European because its football team is aligned with UEFA
(Union of European Football Associations) and also it participates in the
Eurovision song contest, so a lot of Europeans, myself included, definitely
see Israel as quasi-European

~~~
marcf
Israel is fairly European in a lot of aspects except when it comes to its
occupation of the Palestinian territories and its denial of rights to the
inhabitants of those territories. Israel's behavior with regards to the West
Bank is so bad that it being referred to more and more as an apartheid
situation:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analog...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analogy)

~~~
philwelch
This is the third time I've seen you try and start a flamewar over Israel.
Please knock that shit off.

~~~
marcf
I made three posts in quick succession with regards to Israel, each time I
kept it short and sweet and what I said was directly relevant to the posts I
was responding to.

#1. Two postings I responded where saying in effect that culturally Israel is
similar to Europe, one of them was yours. I said that is true, except when it
comes to its occupation. With regards to the occupation, its is related human
rights issues, Israel is very unlike modern Europe. That is a completely true
observation and it was appropriate in the context I posted it.

#2. A third response was with regards to someone else saying that Israel
played in the European league because it wanted to avoid matches with Syria
and Iran, but the actual reason is that Israel viewed very negatively by the
majority of its neighbors in the Arab world primarily because of its treatment
of the Palestinians in the occupied territories. It isn't just about Syria and
Iran, but rather about Jordan, Egypt and basically every other state in the
region. Again that is a completely true observation and appropriate in the
context.

~~~
philwelch
As far as human rights go, I think you've forgotten that Yugoslavia is part of
Europe. There are also parallels with Northern Ireland.

And as far as Israel's relations with the Arab countries, it has more to do
with anti-Semitism. Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is no worse--and in
many respects better--than that of Jordan and Egypt.

EDIT: Before you think of responding to this and disagreeing with me, keep in
mind--this is exactly how every Israel flamewar everywhere else on the
internet ever starts.

We're all decently informed people here, well aware of the situation in the
Middle East. It's sufficient to point out that Israel maintains relationships
with European countries due to its strained relations with its Arab neighbors.
It does no good to drag out your own opinions of who is in the right and who
is in the wrong. Saying "Israel doesn't get along with other countries in the
Middle East so they play football matches against European countries" makes a
valid point. Saying "Israel doesn't get along with other countries in the
Middle East because Israel practices apartheid", or for that matter saying
"Israel doesn't get along with other countries in the Middle East because the
Arabs are anti-Semitic zealots" is flamebait and doesn't belong on Hacker
News.

~~~
marcf
You just detailed in your response why I am wrong and you are right and then
you finish it off saying that if I do something similar but with opinions that
differ from yours, I will be breaking the rules. It is really hard to know how
to respond to a comment like that except to back away slowly.

~~~
philwelch
Hm, that's not what I meant, but I can see why you read it that way. I'm sorry
for being unclear. Hopefully I can clarify what I meant a little.

I don't think your claims about Israel are helpful for two reasons.

One is because neither of your claims are statements of fact. Your first claim
was:

 _With regards to the occupation, its is related human rights issues, Israel
is very unlike modern Europe._

First, it's a matter of opinion--and rather heated debate--that Israel is
responsible for any human rights issues related to the Palestinians. Some
would say that Israel is only doing what they need to in order to defend
themselves. Secondly, modern Europe has faced several human rights issues of
its own. There was considerable violence against civilians during the
dissolution of Yugoslavia, as well as human rights issues in Northern Ireland
during the Troubles. Granting for the sake of argument that Israel has human
rights issues, they're not unlike Europe in that respect.

Your second claim was:

 _Israel viewed very negatively by the majority of its neighbors in the Arab
world primarily because of its treatment of the Palestinians in the occupied
territories_

This is speculative, and again there is another side to the story. Israel's
Arab neighbors invaded or planned to invade Israel on two separate occasions
before Israel even occupied the Palestinian territories. One of the reasons
Israel even occupies those territories--which used to belong to Jordan and
Egypt--is because Jordan and Egypt have refused to take the territories back.

So, the first reason your claims aren't helpful is because both of your claims
are highly controversial claims, far from the "true observations" you claim
them to be. The second reason your claims aren't helpful is because a lot of
people (yourself included, by all appearances) have very strong emotions about
the situation in Israel and the occupied territories, and bringing up these
controversies only conjures up all kinds of strong emotions and threatens to
start irrelevant, tangential arguments. It's bad form to start arguments about
Israel in unrelated threads for the same reason it's bad form to compare
people to the Nazis. Or, as the guidelines say,

 _Please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something
genuinely new to say about them._

~~~
marcf
Just to be clear, I'm purposely not responding to the content of your message.

