
Marvin Minsky dies at 88 - joelg
http://nytimes.com/2016/01/26/business/marvin-minsky-pioneer-in-artificial-intelligence-dies-at-88.html
======
gonzo
I met Minsky once in February 1987, at a rally in Las Vegas to protest the
Nevada Test Site.. A lot of famous people (Carl Sagan, Barbara Boxer, Tom
Downey, Ramsey Clark, Martin Sheen, Kris Kristofferson) were there, but I'd
gone to meet Minsky.

I had taken along a (quite early) copy of the GNU Emacs manual. The FSF was
selling them, but I'd put this one together myself. Running TeX on the texinfo
source, converting the output for the Imagen printer, and then taking it to
Kinko's to be spiral bound, including my imitation of the yellow cover that
the FSF version had.

I asked Minsky for his autograph. He looked at what I presented, understood
what it was, an autographed inside the front cover, "Marvin Minsky, friend of
Stallman".

In April of 2011 in an airport in Honolulu, I presented that same manual for
an autograph to Richard Stallman. He looked my manual over for a long time.
IIRC, it documents Emacs version 16 or 17. Then he signed it, below Minsky's
autograph, "Richard M. Stallman - Friend of Minsky"

RIP, Marvin.

~~~
pavs
Amazing. If possible, can you please share a picture of the autographs?

~~~
joe563323
Yes. Please please please do share the picture of autographs.

------
Tossrock
In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat
hacking at the PDP-6.

"What are you doing?", asked Minsky.

"I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-tac-toe", Sussman
replied.

"Why is the net wired randomly?", asked Minsky.

"I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play", Sussman said.

Minsky then shut his eyes.

"Why do you close your eyes?" Sussman asked his teacher.

"So that the room will be empty."

At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

RIP.

~~~
gohrt
It is now several decades later.

Do TensorFlow/CNN builders use random initial configurations, or custom
designed stuctures?

~~~
Houshalter
NN weights need to start random because otherwise two weights with exactly the
same value can get "stuck" and be unable to differentiate. Backpropagation
relies on starting random patterns that kind of match so that it can fine tune
them.

But the weights are often initialized to be really close to zero.

~~~
brianpgordon
Given the era though, Sussman may have actually been working with a neural net
that's not the typical hidden-layer variety. "Randomly wired" could be a
statement about the topography of the network, not about the weights.

~~~
argonaut
There is no evidence he was actually working with a neural net.

[https://web.archive.org/web/20120717041345/http://sch57.msk....](https://web.archive.org/web/20120717041345/http://sch57.msk.ru/~khim/hackers/part1/chapter6.html)

~~~
dTal
I had no idea this existed; it's brilliant!

------
Eliezer
I had the chance to walk with Marvin Minsky down a hallway once, and I asked
him what he thought of Bayesian reasoning. He said that it seemed to him like
it was still part of a general trend away from tackling the central problem in
AI. I said I didn't think so, but he seemed tired so I didn't try to go into
detail.

There's an urban legend that I once got into a fistfight with Marvin Minsky,
which does about as well as anything to illustrate the crazy, crazy things
that people have been known to believe about me.

We have temporarily misplaced a great mind. See you later, Professor Minsky.

~~~
rpgmaker
I keep thinking about an article I read a couple of years ago about the two
schools of thought in AI: the now popular Conventional AI and (I believe)
Computational AI. The article was mainly about the lead proponent of
computational AI and how, after he helped give birth to the AI field, he was
in effect being ostracised because he didn't think conventional AI should be
considered "intelligence" as we generally think of it. I'm paraphrasing of
course but I'm wondering if Marvin Minsky was the subject of that article? It
has been nagging me for a couple of months now and I just don't remember where
did I read it or the name of the subject.

~~~
aomurphy
Was it this one about Hofstader?

[http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/11/the-
man-...](http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/11/the-man-who-
would-teach-machines-to-think/309529/)

~~~
rpgmaker
That seems to be the one thanks! I think that the article had some "code
samples" and this one doesn't... but I may be confusing it with another
article about quantum computing.

------
ggreer
Interesting fact: Minsky is an Alcor member[1], so he's probably being
cryopreserved right now. Though if he died from a cerebral hemorrhage, I'm not
sure how well they'll be able to preserve his brain.

1\.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcor_Life_Extension_Foundatio...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcor_Life_Extension_Foundation#Membership)

~~~
reasonattlm
One can hope that they'll make the attempt regardless. Alcor's position is to
carry out their directive from a member regardless of third party opinions on
viability where they can, as having the reputation for doing this minimizes
the very real problem of interference from family members (for reasons
economic, religious, etc). Also it is very hard to say at the time (as time is
critical) how much damage is done via fatal brain injury of this nature, and
of course at this point next to impossible to say what that will do the the
odds and difficulty of future restoration.

Brain injury kept Roy Walford from being cryopreserved, though there it was
clearly an extension of his own thoughts on the matter:
[http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/dsp.cgi?msg=24045](http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-
bin/dsp.cgi?msg=24045) I see that as a terrible shame; it is guessing in
advance as to the limits of what can be restored.

~~~
JoshTriplett
Agreed. Not trying guarantees failure; trying leaves some possibility of
success.

~~~
Outdoorsman
Agreed...given the resources and money there's nothing wrong with hedging your
bets...

------
wittedhaddock
I audited a class on policy at the Harvard Kennedy School in October of 2015,
and instead of going to class one day, we listened to a speaker (Jaron
Lanier). After the talk, I stuck around in the front row and eavesdropped on
people asking him questions. Eventually, one person came up to his side and
asked "are you going to Marvin's house tonight?" I thought this person may
have been talking about Minsky! So after Jaron responded with a "maybe" I
approached this man and asked him if he was. And he did mean Minsky!!

This man and I started talking about intelligence, ML vs. symbolic, and
more... he truly knew many intricacies of AI! Eventually, for some amazing
reason, out of nowhere he asked me if I wanted to come to Marvin's house that
evening! Of course I said yes! At the time, the only paper I had on me was
ironically Patrick Winston's thesis printed out in my backpack, so this man
wrote the name "Henry Lieberman" (a colleague of Minsky's) on the cover and
gave me Minsky's address!

I went to Marvin's house that evening, and it was simply wonderful! We talked
about SoM, and I was included in these discussions and was treated like a
colleague. Marvin answered all my initial questions, but only created more
within me! He engaged me! I really felt included. It was one of luckiest days
in my life.

I'm sharing because I'm reading other stories about people's encounters with
Marvin, and while I was reading them I didn't feel as sad. Perhaps mine might
do the same for someone somewhere.

------
d0mdo0ss
One amazon review for The Society of Mind says "The book has nothing to do
with artificial intelligence. It has everything to do with speculation. And
since no one has builty the society of mind from this blueprint in over 15
years, what does that tell us about the usefulness of the idea??" A"Marvin
Minsky" replied: "It tells us that most AI researchers are still looking for
oversimplistic solutions to problems. This reviewer does not understand that
new ideas often take 2 decades to spread, because most practitioners in most
fields don't oftenmake changes in their careers. The ideas in my 1961 "Steps
toward Artificial Intelligence" became general practice aroun 1980, and those
in "The Society of Mind," are only now (2007) becoming widely adopted."

~~~
myztic
He also wrote a few product reviews
[http://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/A3145L3LF7U7F5/ref=cm_c...](http://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/A3145L3LF7U7F5/ref=cm_cr_pr_pdp?ie=UTF8)
;)

------
heyrhett
While I was a student at MIT, I heard a rumor that Prof. Minsky in the 1960's
thought computer vision was such an easy problem that he assigned it to a
first year undergrad.

I asked him if it was true, and he said that it wasn't true that he thought
the problem was easy, but it is true that he had a first year undergrad
student that he decided to put in charge of his grad students working on the
problem. The first year student was Gerald Sussman.

------
dmschulman
Minsky helped design one of the coolest musical gadgets I've ever come across,
the Triadex Muse. Being a sort of self-generative music box, Minsky imagined a
future where families would gather around such musical machines instead of
turning to boring old television for their entertainment and relaxation.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triadex_Muse](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triadex_Muse)

------
saosebastiao
RIP. I will always hold him as an inspiration.

Of interest:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neats_vs._scruffies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neats_vs._scruffies)

I find it interesting because Minsky did a lot of the foundational work in
Neural Network research yet he philosophically identified as the opposite on
the Neat/Scruffy spectrum of most NN researchers today. Much like Bayes, I
think there is some immense wisdom from his research that will not even be
acknowledged as wisdom for decades.

~~~
proc0
I think that's interesting as well. I would have guessed he was a Neat from
his talks and his admiration of AGI because it implies he agrees there will
have to be a succinct theory of general intelligence/consciousness.

~~~
jclos
It depends a lot on where you put the limit between neats and scruffies. I
personally would have put him straight in the center, as more of a pragmatist.
One of the big criticisms he had (from my memory of the Society of Mind
lectures) is that some researchers spent too much time trying to find an
overarching, simplistic theory of mind (some sort of physics-envy), which
would put him in the scruffy camp. I do also remember him saying that trying
to replicate the brain was pointless and that people should focus on trying to
replicate its function rather than its architecture, which I am assuming is a
criticism of the connectionist approaches, which would put him in the neat
camp.

------
daughart
Besides his contributions to computer science, his invention of the confocal
microscope profoundly affected biology research and is still in wide use.

~~~
memming
Wow, I didn't know that he invented confocal!

------
anateus
I got to spend some time talking with him once when we were both visiting the
offices of OLPC in Cambridge, more or less across the street from MIT's
building 32 where CSAIL is located. I told him a little about what I was
working on (learning agents attached to dialogue systems) and he had some
insights. I ran out to the coop to buy another copy of The Society of Mind and
he signed it. We also talked a little bit about some of the ideas in his The
Emotion Machine, which I hadn't read at that point.

On top of his work, Minsky taught me that you _should_ meet your idols. If
they're worth it you walk away enriched and invigorated.

------
mindcrime
Oh man... This is really sad news. I mean, don't get me wrong, ANY death is
sad news, especially for that person's friends and family. But while I never
knew Marvin Minsky personally, I've felt his influence on my life for a long
time. AI has always been one of my favorite subjects, and he's one of the
forefathers of AI research and his presence looms large in the life of anyone
connected to the field. So this feels like losing an old friend.

Not to mention that he was a brilliant mind, and his loss is a loss for
humanity at large.

Anyway, RIP Mr. Minsky.

------
chriskanan
I think Minsky was the last living giant of AI that attended the 1956
Dartmouth Summer Research Project on Artificial Intelligence, which many cite
as being the beginning of NLP, computer vision, machine learning, etc.

Sad news...

~~~
robotresearcher
More than an attendee, he was one of the proposers.

The proposal:

[http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/history/dartmouth/dartmou...](http://www-
formal.stanford.edu/jmc/history/dartmouth/dartmouth.html)

------
dang
Here's a nice tribute by Philip Greenspun:
[http://blogs.harvard.edu/philg/2016/01/25/marvin-
minsky-1927...](http://blogs.harvard.edu/philg/2016/01/25/marvin-
minsky-1927-2016-the-death-of-a-skeptic/), via
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10971472](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10971472).

------
ryanmarsh
Favorite paper of his:

Why Programming is a Good Medium for Expressing Poorly Understood and
Sloppily-Formulated Ideas

[http://web.media.mit.edu/~minsky/papers/Why%20programming%20...](http://web.media.mit.edu/~minsky/papers/Why%20programming%20is--.html)

------
hydandata
What a sad day, he was truly one of the great minds of the twentieth century.
Inspiration to generations.

P.S. Web of Stories has an extensive, autobiography style interview with
Marvin Minsky [1].

[1]
[http://www.webofstories.com/play/marvin.minsky/1](http://www.webofstories.com/play/marvin.minsky/1)

------
vonnik
Some great sentences from Minsky:

No computer has ever been designed that is ever aware of what it's doing; but
most of the time, we aren't either.

In general we are least aware of what our minds do best.

------
mckoss
As a grad student, I remember shooting the bull with Minsky and Hillis (1983).
The CIA had offices across the hall and we were discussing how we might grab
one of their bags of shredded documents and use a computer to piece together
all the fragments by hashing the pattern of edge fragments on each piece.

~~~
waterlesscloud
Which later became a real-life DARPA Challenge (solved).

[http://archive.darpa.mil/shredderchallenge/](http://archive.darpa.mil/shredderchallenge/)

And, come to think of it, a variation was in the novel Rainbows End by Vernor
Vinge.

~~~
zimpenfish
There's an excellent chapter about it in
[http://www.glassner.com/portfolio/morphs-mallards-and-
montag...](http://www.glassner.com/portfolio/morphs-mallards-and-montages/)

------
eruditely
> Underlying our approach to this subject is our conviction that "computer
> science" is not a science and that its significance has little to do with
> computers. The computer revolution is a revolution in the way we think and
> in the way we express what we think. The essence of this change is the
> emergence of what might best be called procedural epistemology ­ the study
> of the structure of knowledge from an imperative point of view, as opposed
> to the more declarative point of view taken by classical mathematical
> subjects. Mathematics provides a framework for dealing precisely with
> notions of "what is." Computation provides a framework for dealing precisely
> with notions of "how to."

[http://web.media.mit.edu/~minsky/papers/Why%20programming%20...](http://web.media.mit.edu/~minsky/papers/Why%20programming%20is--.html)

[https://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/front/node3.html](https://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/front/node3.html)

From SICP preface, which is the quote that actually matters, this is inspired
by Minsky's quote. I hate that the quote that went public were all the other
less inspired quotes from SICP.

------
jonbarker
Glad I was able to get to meet Marvin back in 2014. On cognitive neuroscience
he was pessimistic, he likened it to telling a chemist to try and discern what
a computer was doing by looking at the machine without the monitor. Really
enjoyed that analogy.

------
DonHopkins
He was truly a brilliant and humble man, who wrote so much influential and
interesting stuff! Here's one of my favorite papers by Marvin Minsky:

Jokes and their Relation to the Cognitive Unconscious

Marvin Minsky, MIT

Abstract: Freud's theory of jokes explains how they overcome the mental
"censors" that make it hard for us to think "forbidden" thoughts. But his
theory did not work so well for humorous nonsense as for other comical
subjects. In this essay I argue that the different forms of humor can be seen
as much more similar, once we recognize the importance of knowledge about
knowledge and, particularly, aspects of thinking concerned with recognizing
and suppressing bugs -- ineffective or destructive thought processes. When
seen in this light, much humor that at first seems pointless, or mysterious,
becomes more understandable.

[http://web.media.mit.edu/~minsky/papers/jokes.cognitive.txt](http://web.media.mit.edu/~minsky/papers/jokes.cognitive.txt)

------
EGreg
Reading the comments here, I would have loved to meet the guy. I'm in my 30s
and I've met and spoken to precious few of "the greats" of our generation. I
feel like there are two phenomena going on:

1) We don't always know who is one of "the greats" of today's generation,
until much later.

2) Today, content generation is so democratized (eg wikipedia, soundcloud)
that there are less individual superstars like Pushkin, etc.

3) Even intellectuals who were once highly regarded would today have tons of
comments on their blog nitpicking and debating every detail of what they said,
with many of the comments being low quality. See eg Sam Harris vs Noam Chomsky
debates.

It seems like a world in which it's harder to be great like Alan Turing or
Claude Shannon or Richard Feynman or Marvin Minsky. At the same time, maybe
there are more great people than ever, and we just don't always know who they
are until much later.

------
ehudla
One of my earliest exposures to CS was his Computation: Finite and Infinite
Machines.

"Communication with Alien Intelligence" is another favorite of mine. The idea
of enumerating all possible Turing Machines and looking for ones that do
something meaningful is brilliant.

~~~
Igglyboo
Is the set of all turing machines finite?

~~~
govg
No, but they can be put in a 1-1 mapping with the integers, making them
countably infinite.

------
xxcode
I would go to Marvin's lectures - they were in the evening, like 7PM or so.
This was early 2000's, and I was a grad student at MIT.

I went to Patrick Winston, and asked him if it was worth going to Marvin's
lectures given that I keep falling asleep. He said - of course, we all know
you are overworked, but marvin may say something that will change your life.

------
jonbaer
"You don't understand anything until you learn it more than one way." ... RIP
... The Society of Mind one of the best books.

~~~
mjklin
After reading that book my imagination came up with a cartoon I doodled in my
notebook. It was someone speaking at Minsky's funeral and saying "I know he
thought my mind was just a bunch of simple machines like Builder, but he was
still a pretty good guy."

Not that I knew anything about him... it was just an impression.

------
elfyhat
"If you like somebody's work just go and see them. However, don't ask for
their autograph. A lot of people came and asked me for my autograph and it's
creepy." \-- Marvin Minsky
([https://youtu.be/qJZ_1a-t_sA?t=1543](https://youtu.be/qJZ_1a-t_sA?t=1543))

------
pyrrhotech
Very sad and surreal, I happened to just be reading his Wikipedia page
yesterday. I hope the cause of death does not prevent his cryopreservation.
Say what you will about cryonics, but it definitely gives you a better chance
of living again than internment or cremation. I hope the world will see his
genius again.

------
christianbryant
K-Lines (Knowledge-lines). I still meditate on this idea, and Minsky's paper
"K-lines: A Theory of Memory".

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K-line_(artificial_intelligenc...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K-line_\(artificial_intelligence\))

------
rootbear
Minsky used to give talks at the annual Boskone Science Fiction Convention. I
heard several and enjoyed them greatly, he was an entertaining speaker.

~~~
waterlesscloud
He also spoke at the World Science Fiction Convention in Boston in 1989. The
only time I got to see him speak in person.

------
maze-le
When I first came into contact with AI at the University, I really enjoyed
reading his Essays. As A Undergraduate I wasn't really ready to read his
papers, but publications like "Why People Think Computers Can't" and "Matter,
Mind and Models" (wich where recommendations of my prof.) really got me
interested in this field.

Rest in peace, Mr. Minsky.

------
iMark
He had a wonderful way of expressing ideas. This always resonated with me:
"Minds are what brains do"

------
mhalle
Danny Hillis introduced Marvin at the MIT Media Lab's 30th anniversary in
October 2015, where they both participated in a remarkable panel discussion.

Though not as strong and fast-talking as he once was, Marvin's humor and
wisdom shine through.

Here's a link to the video:
[http://www.media.mit.edu/video/view/ml30-2015-10-30-01](http://www.media.mit.edu/video/view/ml30-2015-10-30-01)

Danny begins his introduction at about 41:29.

------
poseid
RIP Marvin Minsky [http://thinkingonthinking.com/marvin-minsky-passed-
away/](http://thinkingonthinking.com/marvin-minsky-passed-away/)

------
DonHopkins
Here's a video image from the POV of a robotic Dakin Bear of Marvin Minsky's
son, Henry Minsky, who had a look of trepidation at the idea of sacrificing
his Dakin Bear to one of his dad's robotics experiments.

[http://imgur.com/gcFVzpk](http://imgur.com/gcFVzpk)

------
morenoh149
thankfully MIT open courseware recorded one of his classes
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pb3z2w9gDg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pb3z2w9gDg)
the society of mind class 6.868

------
tuananh
@seldo (CTO of npmjs)

> True story: in my final essay of my AI module at uni, I disagreed with
> everything Minsky believed, so my professor, a fan, flunked me.

------
proc0
So sad. I wanted him to survive until a true AI breakthrough happens, which
seems so close (granted for many decades now, but that's why).

~~~
luckydude
If you look at what the cars are doing, I'm not an AI guy, but that deep
learning that the cars are doing seems like something he might like. In my
book that neural network stuff is AI.

~~~
wittedhaddock
Machine learning is not Artificial Intelligence.

Machine Learning is applied science. Artificial Intelligence is science.

------
jordhy
This is sad beyond words. He was an admirable genius and a very candid person.
May he rest in peace.

------
reviseddamage
I'm trying to figure out who will play him in the Hollywood movie about him.

------
ffk
Admin, can we get a black bar for this? Marvin Minsky is widely referred to as
the "Founding Father of AI."

~~~
Eliezer
I can't imagine who deserves a black bar if Minsky doesn't, unless a grey bar
would be more appropriate (Minsky was signed up for cryonics with Alcor, so
he's not _dead_ dead.)

~~~
reality_hacker
> I can't imagine who deserves a black bar if Minsky doesn't

Have you chance to elaborate why this guy deserved this? Did he build first
neural network, lisp machine, ALICE chatbot, break image net. I always
considered him as some kind of celebrity from science, while other guys, which
names nobody remembers, actually pushed AI movement by doing real things,
while working on Google Brain, Watson, cyc, trying to catch spam, terrorists
and fraudsters.

~~~
joshu
Ignorance is not an excuse

~~~
reality_hacker
Could you elaborate?

------
julianpye
Isaac Asimov: "The only people I ever met whose intellects surpassed my own
were Carl Sagan and Marvin Minsky."

~~~
azinman2
Pretty egotistical to frame it that way of Asimov.

~~~
paloaltokid
You are not Isaac Asimov. Therefore you cannot know his mind. So maybe he
wasn't boasting at all.

~~~
HQWT93xCRh
Isaac Asimov wasn't any of the people he wasn't talking about either, so maybe
he should've kept it shut about their minds, too.

But that wouldn't make good banter.

------
fuck_dang
God, when I log on to HN in the morning and see that damned black bar I know
it's going to hurt.

But Marvin Minsky? My Tuesday wasn't ready for this. He has had such an impact
on the field of AI, and even on the social dialogues about it. Not everybody
thinks that robots are going to go Skynet on us, and a lot of us that realize
that were informed by his work. Whether directly or indirectly, so much of his
work has become common knowledge amongst AI enthusiasts and scientists.

I'd be wasting my breath to say that he'll be missed, of course. I wish I
could have met him.

------
_pius
We just lost a giant.

Hard to imagine someone more black bar worthy for Hacker News, hope we have
one up soon.

~~~
krapp
I hope not. The black bar has become a meaningless exercise in political
posturing.

Edit: allow me to clarify - just having to choose whether or not someone is
"black bar worthy" is distasteful. Ian Murdock didn't get a black bar that I
can recall, and I don't remember seeing one since then, even though other
people relevant to the community have died. Are we to expect someone to change
the color of the bar every time a death in the tech community occurs, and how
to we judge relevance in that regard?

No, it's an arbitrary gesture that doesn't really honor anything or anyone. It
just gives people something to argue about. Why did someone get a black bar
and someone else didn't? Why was this person deserving of it, and not that
person? It's best to just remove it altogether.

~~~
mikeash
I thought the black bar was done by the people who run the site, and "we"
don't judge it at all.

In which case, it's a personal decision to honor someone they care about by
placing a subtle notice on ther site, which happens to be popular. It's no
different in spirit to the thousands of tribute blog posts being written as I
type this.

I find it extremely distasteful to criticize how someone chooses to honor the
dead. As long as they're not doing it by shooting guns into the air or hosting
a destructive party next to your house or something like that, what do you
care?

~~~
krapp
"We" certainly do judge, even if that judgement has no practical value. People
do act as if it's up for debate. Whenever we decide one death is worthy of it
and ignore others, or get into petty arguments if it doesn't appear fast
enough, or for the right person. An expectation builds which, if not properly
catered to, leads to insult and animosity. And given that it's Hacker News,
sometimes suspicion and paranoia.

It certainly is within the site owners' right to do whatever they like, but
for the community it's becoming a spectacle.

Although obviously, as the bar is up right now, my opinion on the matter isn't
going to prevail.

~~~
mikeash
I'd say the solution here is not to end the black bars, but to end the petty
disputes by being more civilized in the discussions. Perhaps that's too much
to ask, but we should give it a shot.

~~~
dang
Thank you.

~~~
JupiterMoon
Why?

~~~
jacquesm
Because it very strongly reflects the guiding idea of what is best for HN
given that 'petty disputes' are the opposite. They are destructive to a degree
that is hard to imagine until you put a figure on it.

~~~
JupiterMoon
Unfortunately to my eyes the comment that dang thanked looked like it was a
rather passive aggressive put down. Especially in the context that the OP was
_not_ being petty but was raising an important point in a measured way.

EDIT Civility is important but it should not be confused for everyone having
the same point of view on a topic. And censorship by "civility" causes people
to not join discussions. When I come to HN I want a intelligent but lively
discussion. However, some issues have reached such a consensus such that even
well thought out opposing views put politely get heavily downvoted.

~~~
tomhoward
Think about it this way...

Imagine you were the caretaker of a public establishment like a school or
business, and news broke of the passing of an eminent person who was deeply
respected and admired by many of the people who frequent that establishment.

So you went and lowered the flag to half-mast, because that is the customary
and respectful thing to do. And whilst most people appreciated the gesture and
felt comforted by the shared sense of mourning and respect for the deceased
person, a small minority erupted into a noisy debate about how appropriate it
was to lower the flag, and whether someone else was more worthy of having the
flag lowered in their honour, etc.

If you can imagine this scenario in real life, you can understand how dang
feels when this kind of argument erupts on a bereavement thread on a site he
runs and cares so deeply about cultivating as a pleasant site to visit.

He can't be the one to call people out for being insensitive, but he can at
least say "Thank you" to someone who does, and who in doing so, gives him some
much-needed reassurance about the level of emotional intelligence around this
place.

Discussions about the merits of customs and policies on the site are fair
enough, but if we're to be as humane and compassionate online as we would try
to be offline, the time and place of the mourning and honouring of a just-
deceased person is not the right time and place.

~~~
JupiterMoon
I can see this from both POV...

Just reverse that situation and imagine that you are a member of a public
establishment and that when certain people you particularly respect pass that
public establishment does not follow its usual customs.

~~~
tomhoward
If/when it happens, you'd politely discuss it with the caretaker and others in
the establishment (just like what happens here when someone says "hey can we
have the black bar?"), and you'd then respect the consensus outcome. And if
the caretaker and the other members rebuked such a request that was important
to you, it would be fair enough to express your feelings then and there, and
discuss it to the point of resolution.

That isn't what's happened here.

Seriously, civil behaviour around a bereavement is just not that hard.

Respectfully, I won't be commenting further on this thread.

------
endlessvoid94
Can we get a black bar for this one?

