
The world’s most-surveilled cities - cyanbane
https://www.comparitech.com/vpn-privacy/the-worlds-most-surveilled-cities/
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sho
2.6 million cameras in Chongqing!? that number is mind-boggling. In fact it's
borderline unbelievable. How could any one organisation possibly use, process
or even receive that much data?

I have questions about exactly where this data comes from. Does it include
every single camera in the city, eg. security in shops or apartment buildings?
Surely they're not linked into the government.

Or are they all supposed to be some kind of "smart" cameras that detect and
isolate faces, vehicles etc and then send only some kind of abstracted data
back to the mothership? That sounds like the only manageable methodology. It
also sounds unbelievably expensive.

This article raises more questions than answers.

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ddeck
The number is enormous, but is inline with the Chinese government figures of
170 million nationally (400 million expected by 2020).

 _> Or are they all supposed to be some kind of "smart" cameras that detect
and isolate faces, vehicles etc_

The cameras are part of the "Skynet" (天网) system, which is intended to perform
all of those things and a great deal more. It's powered by software from "the
world's most valuable AI startup", SenseTime.

[https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/2165372/how-...](https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/2165372/how-
tensions-west-are-putting-future-chinas-skynet-mass)

[http://paper.people.com.cn/rmzk/html/2017-11/20/content_1825...](http://paper.people.com.cn/rmzk/html/2017-11/20/content_1825998.htm)

[https://www.sensetime.com/en/Service/Security_SenseFace.html](https://www.sensetime.com/en/Service/Security_SenseFace.html)

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wil421
Atlanta is the most surveilled city in the US. The local news had this on TV
last week. They walked around and asked a bunch of random people what they
thought. Every single person said they were fine with surveillance if it made
things safer.

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psychrometer
> Every single person said they were fine with surveillance if it made things
> safer.

> A primary argument in favor of CCTV surveillance is improved law enforcement
> and crime prevention. We compared the number of public CCTV cameras with the
> crime and safety indices reported by Numbeo, which are based on surveys of
> that site’s visitors.

> For both indices, the correlation was weak (r = 0.168, r = -0.168, n = 120).
> A higher number of cameras just barely correlates with a higher safety index
> and lower crime index.

~~~
brlewis
> A higher number of cameras just barely correlates with a higher safety index
> and lower crime index.

That makes an impressive case for cameras. I would have expected a negative
correlation. People put up more cameras where there are more crimes.

~~~
AnthonyMouse
> People put up more cameras where there are more crimes.

There is no reason to expect that correlation to exist. People put up cameras
where they can afford to buy cameras and have a local legislature that can be
influenced by contractors who want to sell cameras, but having money is
inversely correlated with high crime rates.

There are more cameras in NYC than Detroit.

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davidhyde
There is a very big difference between standard CCTV cameras and automated
high resolution facial recognition ones. Standard CCTV is used to collect
evidence when a crime has been committed. Automated facial recognition cameras
are used for real time tracking. China makes extensive use of the facial
recognition ones and London only has those near Kings Cross station (which has
recently caused a public outcry). Source:
[https://www.dezeen.com/2019/08/14/kings-cross-facial-
recogni...](https://www.dezeen.com/2019/08/14/kings-cross-facial-recognition-
news/)

~~~
pjmlp
When in UK it always surprises how everyone tries to tidy park due to fear
that CCTV will trigger a patrol to come by and toll the car away.

~~~
apta
Seems that CCTV is doing its job then eh? :-)

~~~
pjmlp
Sure, but having been the first generation to learn about freedom, while
everyone else from previous generations were either forced into colonial war,
or had to enjoy a CCTV like state, I don't enjoy the feeling of not being able
to do stuff, because "someone might be watching".

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ourmandave
_A higher number of cameras just barely correlates with a higher safety index
and lower crime index._

What about conviction rates? For example, a lot of shootings in Chicago go
unsolved. Maybe for lack of a witness?

~~~
reaperducer
Chicago's shootings are almost all gang related. That means there are no
witnesses. Even if there are witnesses there are no witnesses.

A couple of police chiefs ago the chief said people unwilling to talk was the
number one reason crimes go unsolved in Chicago.

~~~
Arnt
I'm curious. Did he start a project to find out why people were unwilling to
talk? Or to find out how the police could adapt its behaviour to make people
more willing to talk?

~~~
n8henry
It's the unwritten law of the south side. If you are even seen to be talking
to the police, you are assumed to be a 'snitch.'

~~~
Arnt
I see, thanks.

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goblin89
Slightly tangential, but it’s interesting that Hong Kong’s safety index is
higher than one of Singapore, considering the apparently-stricter overall
regulations in the latter city. They don’t seem to disclose the sources for
safety & crime indices, though I assume they used a trustworthy source.

EDIT: They do credit the source to numbeo.com, which doesn’t rely on
government stats
([https://www.numbeo.com/crime/](https://www.numbeo.com/crime/)).

~~~
zadokshi
What do you suppose the source for crime rate statistics in Hong Kong/China
would be? What do you think is the trustworthiness of that source?

Given the answers to these question I am not sure helpful this analysis is.

~~~
goblin89
> What do you think is the trustworthiness of that source?

Relative to Singapore about the same, assuming they used government-provided
stats.

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lota-putty
These figures are per-capita in those cities; what about by per-sq-km?

Edit: Estimates always skew reality!

~~~
ferros
I came to post this same question :)

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bravura
I'm surprised to see Berlin on this list, which is generally a city that is
very surveillance-averse. I live in Berlin and am not even aware of the
presence of surveillance cameras. Any more information on this statistic?

~~~
Arnt
Look at the ceiling in most shops, lots of shop façades, all of the S-Bahn and
U-Bahn trains, lots of railway stations and similar. It adds up.

Semirelevant digression: A few years ago someone found that in Munich, the
shop façade cameras covered every meter of the main pedestrian street (Hbf to
Marienplatz). Not planned by anyone, it was just that each shop added a camera
to watch over its own expensive display window, and there are shops everywhere
there. Now the government is proposing a new law giving the police real-time
access.

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willis936
Why is Taipei not on this list?

There are 13,000 cameras [1] for 2.7 million people [2].

1\.
[http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2011/04/08/2...](http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2011/04/08/2003500223)

2\. [http://worldpopulationreview.com/world-cities/taipei-
populat...](http://worldpopulationreview.com/world-cities/taipei-population/)

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esotericn
I wonder how they come up with these stats.

I have a security camera on my house. I don't know how that would be captured
in the statistics at all.

~~~
close04
It wouldn't. That is surveillance for your private home, not the city.

> We focused primarily on public CCTV—cameras used by government entities such
> as law enforcement

> we have also tried to find the number of private CCTV cameras in use.
> However, as this isn’t possible for every city, we did not include private
> CCTV in the overall totals.

~~~
ourmandave
But police have asked people to submit security camera video if something
happened your camera happened to pick up.

~~~
close04
Perhaps but I was just pointing out that's not reflected in the statistic
above according to the article (see quotes above). In many parts of the world
you are not even allowed to point your private security camera at a public
space. In these cases you already know that legally there's no private camera
constantly watching you.

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keiferski
I’ve never seen this point made but: one response to the surveillance state is
to push for more remote work. It’s infinitely easier to set up surveillance
cameras in urban areas than in even a slightly rural area.

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excalibur
Looks like London has some catching up to do!

~~~
bcaa7f3a8bbc
I've read that London has _a lot_ of surveillance cameras, but most are
privately owned, not directly controlled by the government nor the police. Is
it true? Who control them? How it works?

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lvturner
Say for example you own a small store and you want to put a camera near the
cash register, both to ensure employees don't steal from it and to capture the
faces of anyone who may attempt a robbery (armed or otherwise) - this would be
a privately owned surveilence camera, now suppose you own a chain of these
similar stores, you now own and operate a surveilence camera network...

~~~
tunap
To expand on this, all the corporate big box retail chains have such networks
& add AI facial recognition to their ubiquitous feeds. It has been like this
for a couple decades now.

Anecdote: A manager of a Fortune 50 location I was working at received a call
from HQ to keep an eye on a known perp who entered the store no more than 5
minutes prior to the call. Very impressive & very scary.

~~~
bcaa7f3a8bbc
Wow, that's really scary, the "corporate overlord" trope is real! More scary
than the "Big Brother" trope we are all familiar with...

