
Humans hot, sweaty, natural-born runners - 6ren
http://www.physorg.com/news95954919.html
======
noelwelsh
Almost the first sentence in the article set a bad tone:

 _Even nature’s best animal distance runners — such as horses and dogs — will
run similar distances only if forced to do so_

This sentence is meaningless. When does a dog do anything uncomfortable
without coercion? It's not like a dog will voluntarily, say, go without food
because it needs to lose weight. Similarly, humans don't spontaneously run
marathons. There is a huge psychological build-up required, of which this
article is a part. It's notable that most Kenyan marathon champions don't
continue running once they retire. They get plenty of physical activity on the
farm and don't have the Western obsession with endurance sports.

\----

This article does not exist in a vacuum. There is a whole barefoot running /
endurance running movement that is taking over conventional sports shoes at
the moment. The general premise is:

\- humans evolved to run without shoes, so you should (or better, with
expensive shoes with minimal heals)

\- humans evolved to run long distances, so you should

I don't disagree with the statements, but I think it's oversimplified. I say
this as someone who wears Vivo Barefoot shoes. In particular, persistence
hunting (the form of hunting that relied on long distance running) was not
widely used outside of some specific niches (really hot places, for instance)
and a lot of humans have adapted away from endurance activities (which is
obvious is look at a Kenyan marathon runner next to a Scandinavian strong-man
competitor).

~~~
tomelders
Id say that running without shoes is only a good idea if you plan to die quite
young, and therefore wont be needing your feet, ankles and knees in old age.

~~~
jd
Nobody advocates running barefoot on asphalt. And yes, running can wear out
your joints, but even if you wear running shoes.

~~~
tomelders
They will certainly wear out faster without shoes, no matter what you're
running on.

Evolution is somewhat limited in what it can do. It must build upon things
that are already there, over very long periods of time through subtle genetic
mutations. Just because evolution didn't grace us with air cushioned soles and
decent bridge and ankle support doesn't mean it's no good for us. Evolution
had a lot less to play with and did the best it could. Humans made it better.

I do find it odd that some people like to look back at the way humans did
stuff in the past and somehow arrive at the conclusion that it's better for
us. They invariably neglect to take into account the pitifully short lifespans
our ancestors had. We also lived in caves, but I don't see many people eager
to do that these days.

And then there's stuff like the Palaeolithic diet which is absolute nonsense
that ranks up there with Hal-Al and Kosher butchering.

That became a rant... I had no idea it bothered me so much.

~~~
Game_Ender
This at least has some evidence. The guy pushing barefoot running has done
some a study showing you put less stress on your joints when running barefoot
then with shoes. I believe it had something to do with running with a better
stride then when in padded shoes because your feet now have more feedback
information. Just found his website here:
<http://barefootrunning.fas.harvard.edu/>

~~~
scott_s
My understanding of the mechanics are simple: when you heel-strike, your heel
hits the pavement hard, and the shock is absorbed by your knee. When you toe-
strike, your ankle can act as a spring and absorb the impact over a greater
period of time, meaning your joints experience less force. I think it's the
toe-strike versus heel-strike is what's important. Running shoes just
encourage heel-striking.

------
drostie
I've been compiling a list of these things which "set us apart" from most
other mammals: the "ones I'm more sure about" column contains: we can form
complex vocal patterns, we walk upright, we don't tiptoe everywhere, we're
essentially naked, we have large brains, we bleed when we menstruate, our
causal intuitions have come detached from their immediate objects. (There's
also a "less sure about" column which contains things like "we sing for the
hell of it" and "our hearts are distinctly on the left.")

The tiptoeing one comes from when I was trying to discuss evolution with some
intelligent design enthusiasts in the US (shudder). So the point they were
making was, you can't possibly say that we look similar to dogs. And with my
laptop I started pulling up skeletal diagrams of us and dogs, and showing that
pretty much the entire logical structure of dogs' skeletons is identical to
that of humans' skeletons, from shoulderblades to legs, if you think of them
as standing on their tiptoes. It also points out a clear parallel between our
arms, which have the same logical structure as our legs, and common ancestry
suggests an elegant solution -- once, there was no difference between arms and
legs, so of course they had the same structure -- natural selection just stole
the recipe for one leg and used it four times.

Anyway, it's very interesting to see that these observations about our nudity
and non-tiptoe bipedal walk come from such a simple, easily-expressible
underlying story. Thanks.

~~~
darklajid
"we bleed when we menstruate" sounded way too weird. Maybe it still is valid
if you set the emphasis on 'set apart from _most_' but it's nothing humans are
unique in - according to a couple simple search terms.

(See 1 - if Wikipedia is to believe what we consider normal menstruation _is_
common mostly for humans and our close relatives in the animal kingdom, but
also happens in simians and .. erm.. bats?)

1: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menstruation_%28mammal%29>

2: [https://myperiodblog.wordpress.com/2010/11/08/do-other-
anima...](https://myperiodblog.wordpress.com/2010/11/08/do-other-animals-
menstruate/)

~~~
drostie
"Most" is indeed key. For example, as far as "complex vocal patterns" go,
there are birds which can learn to duplicate human speech and therefore have
the vocal capacity of humans. Or, as far as bipedalism goes, you have the
kangaroo -- and actually, if I count the animals that I've seen take a few
steps on their hind legs, I'd have to also include dogs, a rabbit, a gerbil,
and an elephant that was trying to get his mating on. Even our nakedness is
shared by other species -- one of them is called the _naked mole rat_.

~~~
6ren
Also birds for bipedalism. At the extreme we have ostriches and emus.

BTW: cockatoos also have strikingly manipulative feet, which they use in
combination with their beak (though they can't use both feet simultaneously).
And a surprisingly high brain/body ratio. Although they lack a prefrontal
cortex, birds have separately developed a different structure, called the
hyperpallium. There's no necessary barrier for birds evolving sapience
independently from our line (any more than for aliens) - and there's no reason
that the architecture of our brains must be better/more efficient.

~~~
bitwize
Arguably, if Dr. Irene Pepperberg's work with Alex the African grey parrot is
to be believed, bird sapience has already been demonstrated.

------
harscoat
"Persistence hunting" is a fantastic sales approach for startups (once of
course you are good at qualifying and aiming the right prey for you). Because
in startups: we have no big weapons (exotic seminar to invite prospects, big
cars or offices to impress...), we are naked!

But if you are determined enough and get you and your team ready for a tough
decisive journey, I guarantee, somebody, something, will get tired before you
do, and you will win. Think if you are in a competitive sale. Your "incumbent"
competitor thinks they closed it, they "arrived", because they nuked your
pricing, your reputation, or they sent their big gun CEO in, and they are
already celebrating the end of negotiations, but you keep on making the extra-
mile (it really hurts (I do know that) to bite the bullet but keep at it). I
have many instances to prove it worked for me (my 1st jobs) or the cos I
worked for ( _Edit with specifics_ : Vivisimo US based startup, 3 Employees at
that time in Europe won Enterprise deals against Autonomy (based in the UK)
for Airbus, Organon (now Merck), against the French based Exalead for Danone;
we did it again for WorldWide famous consultancy firm).

For our current startup (rejected by YC this nov11, huge blow, but we kept at
it) we only got our 1st paying client last week. While we started running over
1.5 years ago... But hopefully will be profitable ramen before end of
August... if I just apply what I have just been telling you of course...
AirBnB story is huge inspiration for us - _AutoMotivational post for the new
starting week_

------
robinwarren
There is an annual 22 mile race held in Llanwrtyd Wells in Wales called Man vs
Horse. I was surprised when I first heard about it that there was even any
chance a human could win but apparently they have 2 times in recent years. The
horses I understand have a check up half way round (11 miles) to make sure
they are still safe to race.

~~~
drats
Presumably the horse has a human on its back which is a fairly significant
encumbrance. "Man vs Horse+Man" might be a better name in that case.

~~~
mahmud
that race would only be fair if it was a manned horse vs a man with a horse on
his back.

------
brazzy
"Even nature’s best animal distance runners — such as horses and dogs — will
run similar distances only if forced to do so, and the startling evidence is
that humans are better at it, Lieberman said. "

That doesn't seem to be true for sled dogs though, who can easily outrun
humans over long distances and are very eager to run.

Then again, they've been bred and trained by humans to do that, and they
usually run under conditions where overheating is not a problem.

~~~
waivej
I was thinking the same thing. My sister used to ride a bike with her dog. It
could go 20 miles at a fast clip before getting tired. It was in hot weather
with a thick coat of fur. Maybe they were good partners in hunting.

------
cfontes
I am a CS graduate and also a Biologist and there so much nonsense in this
article that I cannot believe it was published.

"Even nature’s best animal distance runners — such as horses and dogs — will
run similar distances only if forced to do so"

Those sentences are meaningless as arguments, we humans run for fun because we
CAN spend calories as much as we like OR because we do it for food or we die
like African long-range hunters, ask those guys to run 50km for fun. They do
it because otherwise they will die hungry, we can be as heat efficient as we
like, give us a small brain and we are DEAD.

Today we have an impossible large amount of food and medicine available thanks
to human civilization. A horse run for his life when needed and that's it,
there is no point in spending calories if everything is OK he will need to
work a lot to get them back inside.

How can a person conclude that we are the best long-range runners in the
nature with such a comparison ? What about scale ? I bet you that an Ant can
run in a day more that any human can bare.

A professional runner does only one single thing with it's energy RUN, he
doesn't need to hunt, or run for his life, get injured and heal for himself
without medicine aid and they can have the chance to sleep 8 or more hours at
night. Try being a gazelle and doing that, you will last 5 seconds in nature,
same thing for African long-range hunters they can sleep for 8 hours and
rest... try sleeping 15 minute periods and eating and drinking only what you
find on the run for all your life and chase a gazelle, good luck with that.

We are good at it, but the best in the planet ? I very much doubt it... most
of the animals have evolved millions of years to endure nature in it's full
power ( some got lucky and didn't had a very strong evolution force behind
them like Lemurs in Madagascar) they are probably better than we are in every
single thing besides thinking.

~~~
skittles
Sounds like you think humans aren't animals that have evolved to endure
nature's full power. The article made some dumb statements, but the overall
idea is sound. Humans can run prey animals into the ground in the same way
that the wild dogs of Africa do.

------
sw007
As someone who is currently trying to run all 450 miles of the London
Underground for charity I think that the greatest challenge of running is
mental and not physical. Whilst I take his point we are built better to run
long distances - I would love for there to be some analysis on the mental side
of running. An animal may not be able to run 26 miles for physical reasons but
I firmly believe humans can only run 26 miles if they have cause. If they are
inspired. If they are so inspired that giving up is not an option. There is
not a hope in hell I could run the distances I am running without being
massively inspired by the cause I am running for - that for me is what sets us
apart.

~~~
defrost
Not so sure about having to have a deep compelling cause, the first time Cliff
Young fronted up for an endurance race I believe it was because he just wanted
to have a go.

My father, now 77, has walked a 1000km track pretty much every year for the
past decade now. He doesn't run but he does carry a pack and sets a pretty
mean pace. His initial motivation was the death of my mother and the hole it
left in his life, now it's just another of his regular activities.

Cliff Young: <http://www.elitefeet.com/the-legend-of-cliff-young>

------
RyanMcGreal
Obligatory plug for Chris McDougall's great book _Born To Run_:

<http://www.chrismcdougall.com/>

~~~
mechnik
Fascinating story. One of this book's main characters, Micah True aka Caballo
Blanco, died last week on a remote Western wilderness run. Don't know if he
had his boots on. [http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hZ-
OB7jl7Y...](http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hZ-
OB7jl7YgmXamkSNtTboAargXw?docId)

~~~
rehack
RIP Caballo Blanco. Chris Mcdougal's tweet gives a fitting tribute to him,
from his id @McDougallChris :

"caballo had the only funeral he would have wanted: his friends spent days
running in the wilderness in his honor."

------
saalweachter
If humans did evolve to persistence hunt, to run indefinitely in pursuit of
our prey until it gives up and dies, I wonder how that has shaped us relative
to a baseline alien civilization. I can imagine one alien telling another,
"Don't mess with humans -- they will _hunt you down_."

------
latch
I thought it was already well-established that our species has long been king
of long distance running.

To me, what's interesting now, is how fast can the human body actually go.
Horse, dog and women sprinters all largely topped out in the 70s. Men's 100m
is expected to drop a bit more.

Both women and men are expected to continue to break marathon records, but
women seem to be doing it at a faster pace.

[http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2009/08/how-fast-
can-a-...](http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2009/08/how-fast-can-a-human-
ulitimately-run-is-a-50-second-100-meters-possible-.html)

[http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/11/081128082831.ht...](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/11/081128082831.htm)

------
jscipione
I disagree with the statement made in this paper. Humans are not hot, sweaty,
natural-born runners -- we are hot, sweaty, natural-born swimmers. Although
the theory is speculative, human evolution taking place in a semi-aquatic
rather than plains environment explains our upright posture to stay above the
water, our near hairless bodies to make us streamlined while swimming, our
webbed fingers and toes, the ability of human babies having the innate ability
to swim.

------
Zdkroot
[http://www.amazon.com/Born-Run-Superathletes-Greatest-
Vintag...](http://www.amazon.com/Born-Run-Superathletes-Greatest-
Vintage/dp/0307279189/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1333371636&sr=8-1)

There is a whole book written about this. There are several conversations in
the book with this same professor. I would definitely say this book has
changed my life.

In more than a few places, I was pretty sure that book was written
specifically for me. My dad was in the process of getting knee surgery right
when I picked it up. There was a section that detailed a doctor visit the
author had, where the doctor told him his only recourse was to have the same
surgery my dad was having. Two years later, the author (who didn't have the
surgery) is still running barefoot around central park, yes on asphalt and
concrete and any other substrate you can imagine. My dad is not. My dad used
to come home and run for hours every day after work. Now he doesn't run at
all.

Just thought I'd share some points in the book that I love and find relevant
to this discussion so far...

Not mentioned in the article but Lieberman talks about it in the book, is the
fact that all four-legged animals can only breath one time per stride. A
running cheetah operates like a large bellows. When he extends, his diaphragm
(which is attached to the pelvis) pulls back and forces the lungs open, forced
inhale. When they stride, all their organs literally slosh forward in their
horizontal bodies, compressing the diaphragm, forcing an exhale. Humans
standing upright allows us to breath whenever we feel like it while running.
No other animal can do that.

Also about the Man vs Horse race. Unless the dude sitting on the horses back
is a sumo wrestler, it probably doesn't count for much. A horse that is
1200lbs of muscle has a 150lb man sitting on his back. That's equivalent to
wearing a 10lb backpack. I'm not saying you wouldn't notice it, but you can't
blame the backpack for losing the race. The real reason is that a horse can
only outrun a human for 10-15 miles, at which point the horse has to slow down
to a maintainable pace, or die. Humans have no such restriction.

And as for running on asphalt - we have the best shock absorbers science has
ever seen...they're called knees. Air cushioned soles and arch support,
pronation and supination control, torsion bars, built in computer chips to
monitor your (incorrect) foot strike and adjust the shoe on the fly are all
awesome - if you won't be needing your feet ankles and knees in old age.

I don't recommend many books, but read this one. Even if you don't run, hate
running, have never run in your life. You will love your feet when you're
done.

------
nisse72
"While animals get rid of excess heat by panting, they can’t pant when they
gallop"

Why can't animals pant and gallop at the same time?

------
69_years_and
That was an inspiring story, now days, it's brain agility and endurance that
wins the day and feeds the family.

~~~
J3L2404
Programming often resembles persistence hunting.

~~~
jrockway
Especially the part where I sit at my desk and eat M&Ms.

------
user2459
_"We’re the tortoises of the animal kingdom"_

... That might be the deepest thing I've ever read.

Also, here's Attenborough narrating this article
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=826HMLoiE_o>

~~~
phylofx
"We’re the tortoises of the animal kingdom" such a beautiful and witty
analogy, isn't it?

~~~
bwldrbst
That's what separates us from the animals. Except for the weasel.

