
Why I Quit Microsoft To Join A 5-Person Start Up In Toronto (2012) - Flopsy
http://jaclynkonzelmann.tumblr.com/post/29070457063/why-i-quit-microsoft-to-join-a-5-person-start-up-in
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jacalulu
My friend just told me this made it to the front page of HN and I feel I
should add a quick follow up that a year later I haven't been happier about
the decision. I actually decided to start my own company a couple months ago
with a friend and former classmate, and we are actually part of the current YC
batch (www.amulyte.com) and I couldn't be more excited about how things have
turned out :)

~~~
mabbo
Out of curiosity, what city did you base the startup out of? (Couldn't find it
on the website). I recently moved back to Toronto (Amazon Seattle to Amazon
Toronto) and I've noticed that there really seems to be growth in the industry
here. Lots of little start-ups, and lots of large companies opening and
expanding offices. It's fantastic.

~~~
serverascode
There's an Amazon Toronto?

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CaveTech
It's worth noting that Amazon will pay the same employee less money to work in
Toronto than Seattle, yet cost of living in Toronto is slightly higher.

~~~
nasalgoat
You don't have to pay for healthcare is the justification I believe.

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rlu
Did you ever consider changing teams or org? The review process is of course
standard throughout all of MS but a lot of your complaints seemed to be local
to your team (e.g. status report noise) or Org ("Office needs robots"). Bug
triaging might also be less of a bore now that microsoft seems to be moving to
yearly release cycles.

Either way, seems like you ended up making the right decision for yourself.
Congrats!

~~~
hamburglar
I worked in many different parts of Microsoft over 10 years and I can tell you
that the culture doesn't change enough from team to team to make up for this
sort of thing.

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jjindev
When I was a young man, at my first job, I expressed my discontent. My dad
(Viggo Jensen, RIP) gave me sage advice. He nodded his head, and said "it
takes about 3 years to find out what's wrong with an organization. After that
it's harder." (Shockingly, this from a guy who spent 35 years in Los Angeles
City Schools.)

I would not suggest that Jaclyn is wrong in her choices. Not at all. But
sometimes it is a choice between working within an imperfect organization, and
moving on to another .. whose flaws you will discover over the next 3 years.

~~~
nahname
I lost four years in my career because I was afraid the next company would be
worse. It wasn't. Pick your battles carefully and know when it is time to move
on.

~~~
RogerL
Seconded. Plus, I don't really buy the 3 year thing. Once you know what to
look for, it isn't hard to detect serious problems. Horrible source code?
Engineers that don't know how to use SCM? Politics? Cargo cult processes? I
don't think it is that hard to figure out. You will have annoyances in any
job, but there are broken cultures, and then cultures that continually try to
do the right thing, and fix themselves when something goes wrong.

~~~
avty
Horrible source code is a good one, it's a great indicator of very deep
management problems that can not be solved. Run away after you see it.

~~~
yuhong
>that can not be solved.

Would not go that far.

~~~
avty
Depends on the size of the company I guess. At large corps, it's hopeless.

~~~
yuhong
Hopeless in theory?

~~~
vegor5
Ignorance is bliss.

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aaronbrethorst
So nothing changed in the five years after I quit. I guess that isn't too
surprising. The review process is toxic, especially stack ranking. I don't
think you could pay me enough to go back.

~~~
727374
I can't believe they still use stack ranking. I've come into contact with over
50 Microsoft people through my job and each one has been very high caliber and
hard working. Granted, it's a very biased sample, but these are not the kind
of folks we'd want to fire where I work.

~~~
bobbles
What is stack ranking?

~~~
aaronbrethorst
Background:

[http://www.forbes.com/sites/frederickallen/2012/07/03/the-
te...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/frederickallen/2012/07/03/the-terrible-
management-technique-that-cost-microsoft-its-creativity/)

[http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2012/07/microsoft-
dow...](http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2012/07/microsoft-downfall-
emails-steve-ballmer)

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filereaper
I'm a UW grad as well working for another behemoth of a software company.

We have the same common evils of legacy software where weeks are spent
triaging bugs and shipping stable code.

But I guess what I dislike the most is the stack ranking system.

Do all large software shops have stack ranking? I ask HN this as I'll honestly
skip any company now that uses stack ranking as a measure of performance.

Not sure about the rest of you but I find it to be incredibly detrimental to
team work, people start hoarding techniques and skills in order to get ahead.
The bus factor of the team shoots up. The work place environment just feels
adversarial. Its just quite sickening, but maybe I'm just very naive.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
A meta-comment:

If we are talking about Microsoft and Seattle, UW means University of
Washington; if we are talking about Toronto-area, UW means...University of
Waterloo, right?

~~~
jacalulu
Haha ya, this confused me a LOT when I first got to Seattle (when I say UW I
mean Waterloo).

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adventured
I currently run a technology company with VC backing. I've considered recently
leaving the US and moving my business to Canada (specifically Toronto). I
wonder if anyone here with experience in Canada's tech market has a short
bullet list of pros and cons of Canada and Toronto specifically when it comes
to that.

~~~
jacalulu
Just wanted to back what zmitri said about Kitchener/Waterloo being the
closest to SV in Canada. I went to school at the University of Waterloo, spent
2 years in Seattle, spent a year in Toronto, and have now been in Mountain
View for 2 months going through YC. My general conclusions are:

CONS: -Canada thinks smaller than SV (not as open to big ideas) -BDC is a big
player when it comes to Canadian money, we've had some interactions with them
and for the most part they run more like a bank/government organization than
they do a VC. They are getting better, but are just not quite there yet. In
the end we actually turned down money from them. -The accelerators there are
trying...but they are a far way off from being of the same quality as some of
the ones down here -When it comes to raising money you normally get a lower
valuation and the terms aren't usually as founder friendly

PROS -There are a few bigger players popping up in the Toronto/Kitchener scene
that are really helping the culture and community there grow -It's cheaper and
talent is easier to find (Waterloo produces some amazing talent) -There are a
lot of government grants and tax incentives

There are definitely people in the area worth meeting who are doing some
exciting things, but the buzz and excitement and opportunities down here are
still greater imo. I'm also partial to the West coast as a general lifestyle
choice.

~~~
nahname
What specifically do you find different between the east/west life styles?

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jacalulu
The outdoors and the mountains just breed a different culture from my
experience. Living out west I would go camping, hiking, climbing and I even
got into mountaineering. Toronto doesn't really offer any of those to the same
degree that you will find out west. I tried going outdoor climbing once up at
Rattlesnake point and it didn't even compare to places like Smith Rock or
Tieton. Being able to go jogging in the morning and seeing the Olympics or the
Cascades was breathtaking. People out west are just generally more active and
up for adventures outdoors.

~~~
nahname
Do you generally do these activities solo?

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jacalulu
No, I had a great group of friends in Seattle that I'd get outdoors with.
Managed to find a climbing partner in Toronto but just stuck to the local
climbing gym while there. Haven't had a chance to meet anyone in Mountain View
yet who climbs (also haven't had a chance to do much else apart from work the
past couple months). Hoping that will change soon and I'll be able to get back
into some of these things.

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RandallBrown
Yup, sounds like the Microsoft that I know. Microsoft is a company ruled by
fear. Everyone is afraid that a decision they make is going to blow up on
them, so very few people do anything beyond maintaining the status quo.

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mattholtom
If you haven't been already, the Rails Pub Night (run by the kind folks at
unspace.ca) is a great way to meet people in the Toronto startup community.
Very friendly, meets at The Rhino on Queen west the 3rd Monday of every month
at 7pm. I think I've met some people from Shoplocket there as well, so ask
them about it!

~~~
jacalulu
I also know the guys who run HackerNest. They have a monthly meetup too that I
used to really enjoy going to. Definitely check them out if you get a chance!

~~~
mattholtom
I definitely will check out the August one. Thanks for the tip, this is the
first I've heard of HackerNest.

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_random_
Valid reasons, but quick search for "option", "stock", "shares" did not find
anything in that post - strange.

~~~
jacalulu
Honestly, stock options never crossed my mind as a valid reason to stay. They
are a nice to have for sure - but they played no role in me wanting to stay. I
understand for some people this is a huge incentive, but just not for me.

~~~
CmonDev
Why not work for a charity then? I am sure they need IT people.

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bobbles
In part 3 she says she was given a ranking of '3' but never gives any context.
is 3 good? bad? average?

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dewiz
3 is average, while top performers, very very very few get a 1. 5s probably
are fired

~~~
CaveTech
IIRC 5 is fired, 4 is on their way out should they not improve, 3 is close to
"you're not doing anything wrong, but not doing anything great".

~~~
dewiz
you're right on the downside, however the 3 is seen quite positively afaik, 2s
are given to low % of employees. there is more math then actual merit in these
numbers, if too many people excel the evaluation becomes stricter to lower the
numbers and keep the majority at 3.

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michaelochurch
The geographic insight is interesting. I agree that San Francisco is taking
the Microsoft road, culturally, that spells the end of tech: project managers,
high house prices, 20-minute "standup" meetings in which the bosses sit,
laughably low equity slices used to justify long hours, mean-spirited
performance review systems, VPs of biz dev, etc.

Silicon Valley is the best place for VC-funded technology, by far, but the
culture that's sprung up in this current wave is just repulsive. People are
starting to figure that out.

Lots of smart people who, five years ago, would have only gone to New York or
San Francisco, are now going all kinds of cool places as a generation figures
out where the next maker culture is going to start (if it's going to be
limited to one or a few places at all, which I doubt). It's like a diaspora.
Austin, Toronto, Boulder, all seem quite strong.

Later this month I'm moving to Baltimore, which is somewhat of a dark horse
but I actually think it will win big in the longer term (5+ years). It's
already come a long way from what it used to be.

Seattle and Boston are quite nice places to live, too; but they're still kinda
pricey and that means the legacy of the last wave hasn't gone back into the
sea yet.

Toronto's a good pick. I spent a couple months there in the late '90s and it
struck me, even then, as a great place to live.

~~~
vegor5
Scrum masters, jira, process. It's even infecting startups now.

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pigscantfly
What do you think is bad about using jira at a startup? I'm not trying to be
obnoxious, but I've only ever worked at two startups (~120 people - I'm 21)
and both used jira for bug management.

~~~
seivan
It's poorly implemented. Slow, rendering kills browsers. Takes too much space
in the screen in order to be useful. It's just a shitty product and not built
for decent software engineering.. Not for all types of engineering either.

That's my biggest problem. Say iOS developemtn is asset heavy and requires a
decent way of sorting your assets with your stories. JIRA is complete shit for
that. Trying to explain that to the agile coach or scrum master... yeah.

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vegor5
Yup, sounds like the Microsoft I know. (Used to work there)

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yuhong
[http://programmers.stackexchange.com/a/45814/27304](http://programmers.stackexchange.com/a/45814/27304)

