
A Textbook Example of What’s Wrong with Education - jasonlbaptiste
http://www.edutopia.org/muddle-machine
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dantheman
Here's a classic by Feynman on textbooks:
<http://www.textbookleague.org/103feyn.htm>

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sethg
I think this problem is connected to the "teacher-proof curriculum".

School administrators don't trust teachers to actually make judgements based
on their professional training and what's going on in their own classrooms, so
they just hand them these kits that were chosen based on the buzzwords and
slick marketing brochures. Of course this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy,
because the teachers who are best able to endure this kind of spoon-feeding
are the ones who do not, in fact, have good judgement.

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tokenadult
That's one reason why the excellent Primary Mathematics Series developed in
Singapore

<http://www.singaporemath.com/Primary_Math_s/21.htm>

is not used in more United States schools. Even though there is a United
States version of that series, most school districts that have considered
adopting it have rejected it, as not having built-in scripted lessons for the
teachers to present. I personally find it EXTREMELY easy and intuitive to
teach lessons out of that series, to very good effect, but I'm not the kind of
person who goes into elementary school teaching in a government-operated
school in the United States. I do teach elementary-age pupils mathematics--
that is my current occupation--but I teach them subjects that would be deemed
"prealgebra" and "algebra" in terms of the United States curriculum.

~~~
ars
MCP math is better IMO. And there is no _one_ singapore math, there are many
versions of it, some better than others.

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tokenadult
What's your rationale for saying the other series is better?

After edit: yes, I am aware there are a few different textbook series under
the title "Primary Mathematics" from Singapore publishers, but I haven't noted
any significant differences among them. I still use the old third edition
Primary Mathematics series adopted in Singapore rather than the new United
States edition, for example.

~~~
ars
It's been a while since I researched it, so don't remember fully.

One problem was figuring out which version of singapore math to get (for
example the new one in singapore is not considered as good).

A bigger problem was that it doesn't meet state standards (I was researching
for a school) and MCP does - while still being very good. (BTW they ended up
using Addison Wesley grrr.)

Also an issue that some raised was the cultural differences that might show
up. (Not a big issue, but why add obstacles?)

I think there was some issues raised that singapore math is not as flexible in
dealing with students that have have varying learning styles, while MCP did a
better job of that.

To a homeschooler this might not matter though.

But MCP really is very good and has none of those drawbacks. (I also looked at
Saxon math, but it had WAY too much drill.)

Also, this is more of a "soft" reason, but a lot of reviews seemed to like it
_because_ it was from a different country. "They do well in school, so it must
be the book." But I think cultural emphasis has a larger role than the book.
There seems to be a lot of self-hate by homeschoolers - they don't like the
schools, so they don't like anything american, therefor anything imported must
be good.

I know none of this really gives a good answer for you. I had to pick
something and MCP just seemed better.

~~~
tokenadult
_A bigger problem was that it doesn't meet state standards_

I don't even think that's a problem.

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anigbrowl
I would have called it an educational example of what's wrong with textbooks
:-) Good link though, this is a serious issue. As a european I'm horrified by
most of what I see about the American school system; conservatives and
liberals both seem intent on wrecking it in different ways. Examples like this
make me wonder if the purpose of k-12 isn't so much to educate as to act as an
obstacle course for the less fortunate. I also wonder about the price of
textbooks here. I'm more familiar with college than k-12 books, but the prices
here are a major scam. In Europe I can walk into a bookshop and pay about $30
for an (American) book that sells for >$100 here. Over there the academic
books are almost always cheaper than the 'introduction to learning X in 24
hours for complete dummies'. In fact, I ended up owning a bunch of textbooks
on subjects that interested because they were the affordable option. The first
time I went looking for a CS book here in the US I nearly had a heart attack.

The problem is going to persist as long as education is a state matter but
economics leads most states to play 'me-too' and go with whatever is selected
in Texas. Kickbacks by academic publishers to selectors (which I hear
sometimes takes place) should be prosecuted criminally. Textbooks should be
certified by a panel of relevant academic associations, eg the AAAS or other
well-established groups - not the 'Brand New Hisotrical Revisionism Society'.
Those are just my superficial reactions, and not very good ones.

I was uncomfortably reminded of programming books by this article. There's a
lot of junk out there...makes me think of how many programming books are built
around things like administering a payroll system, which coincidentally
involves nothing more complex than arithmetic and the most primitive kind of
database. If you're a self-study sorta person like me, it's a real pain in the
ass for find good tutorial material.

~~~
Remake
IMHO Textbook based education is going to die. The next big thing - Game based
education. Check out Quest 2 Learn School in NY

~~~
anigbrowl
The idea is good, and we all know games are a source of great UI innovation
too. But the G-word is likely to be a problem for them. Most people think
'game theory' is what happens on ESPN at half time.

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dhimes
Fascinating and nauseating at the same time.

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jasonlbaptiste
Btw, if anyone's interested and passionate about this sector. Well, moreso the
disruption of it, feel free to drop me an email: j@jasonlbaptiste.com . Would
love to continue the conversation.

~~~
gustavo_duarte
I have been spending my free time lately building what I hope will become a
platform for collaboration on books and lengthier material. My immediate goal
is to put out a free x86 internals / Linux kernel book, the embryo of which
started as some blog posts.

I'm very interested in the sector and disruption thereof. I'm dropping you a
line, but if others are interested I'm at gustavo@duartes.org.

~~~
kalid
I'm also really interested in improving the state of education (I blog at
<http://betterexplained.com>). I'm dropping you both a line [Gustavo, I think
our paths have crossed before :)], but anyone can ping me at
kalid@instacalc.com.

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ckinnan
Interesting fact that Texas, despite having lower taxes, spends more per child
on public education than California.

~~~
__
Yeah, and Wyoming spends more per capita on healthcare than New York. That
doesn't necessarily mean it's better.

Higher-population states can better take advantage of economies of scale.
Overhead costs can be spread across a larger number of taxpayers, and for this
reason alone, higher-population states will often have lower per-capita costs.

~~~
ellyagg
Texas has fewer students than California, but spends the same absolute amount,
so your argument doesn't apply.

~~~
__
Sorry, I wasn't denying that Texas spends more money per capita on textbooks.
As you point out, it certainly does, according to the article.

I was worried that someone might read that Texas's per-capita spending is
higher than California's and draw the conclusion that this is a big reason for
why California's schools suck. I've heard a lot of people make arguments like
that. "Small Country X spends so much more per capita on Y! ( _Implied:_ That
must be why Y sucks for us, and our lives would be better if our country would
spend more on it.)"

So I gave one reason why the returns California and Texas get from their
respective textbook purchases are probably not proportional to their per-
capita budgets.

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dangoldin
This was an interesting read - thanks for posting.

It seems the problem is rooted in the fact that some states determine the
textbooks used for each district and that combined with the consolidation in
the industry leads to fewer textbooks being published that all look like one
another.

I think if districts had more control over the textbooks you'd see a lot more
diversity in textbooks with districts choosing books based on what fit their
needs most.

I think the author has some good ideas but I doubt the big publishing houses
will allow the system to change as they have too much vested in it.

An out there idea may be to teach directly from Wikipedia (what the author
calls the "core") and then have modules that build on top of that.

~~~
jasonlbaptiste
Well, my thought is that there's room for a new type of textbook publisher. I
think the textbook industry is on the cusp of a true innovator's dilemma. LOTS
of different ways to innovate here, but it would be insanely difficult.
Anything worth disrupting is though.

~~~
dangoldin
I agree. The market is huge and if you can break into it it would be great.
It's just insanely difficult as you said. My approach would be to target the
smaller districts that can choose for themselves and focus on supplementary
materials. After that I'd work my way up to the "core."

It just seems that when a state is making such a decision, it's difficult to
compete as the little guy. The other publishers have a lot more money behind
them and a probable lobbying effort.

You need parents to start reading the textbooks that kids have in order for
changes to happen - otherwise the textbooks will just appeal to the "average."

~~~
jasonlbaptiste
I wouldn't start with the k-12 sector at first. I'd start with areas where you
can impact at a more individual level to build up momentum: \- Non state
colleges \- Tutoring programs \- Abroad \- Home schooling

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edw519
So what's the problem? Sounds just like how enterprise software is written.

~~~
mahmud
Children are not automated business processes.

Textbooks should have character. We all have so many cherished technical, or
otherwise, textbooks as adults that we refer to them by nicknames. College-
level math students often refer to "baby Rudin", and it's a rite of passage
for many a mathematician. Same with GH Hardy's "Pure Course", it's just
"Hardy." Why can't all other subjects have authoritative texts written by
experts of the field who have excellent exposition AND .. style? taste?
personality?

~~~
Ardit20
Comparing college level with children seems bit much. Perhaps some children
have nicknames for literature books, they are children they like tales. How
exciting can maths be in grade 7!

~~~
gustavo_duarte
It can't be exciting at all because the kids are fed this bland Frankenstein
crap soup we just read about. But it _could_ be exciting. Bertrand Russel said
this is his autobiography:

"At the age of eleven, I began Euclid, with my brother as my tutor. This was
one of the great events of my life, as dazzling as first love. I had not
imagined that there was anything so delicious in the world."

Granted, maybe Russel is a little smarter than average, but we're denying that
same pleasure to kids everywhere through mediocre books and education.

Also, I think it is _more_ important to have good books for kids, as when
you're older you are better equipped to adjust for and handle crap books.

Another issue is that we don't give kids anywhere the credit we should. One of
my favorite things is to 'play math' with my kids on my whiteboard (8 and 5).
We play with things like graph theory and other math concepts that they
wouldn't normally see until later grades. It's simplified to be sure, but they
get a kick out of exploring a graph and seeing simple results and puzzles.

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msluyter
Like a lot of other folks here, I was vastly underchallenged in jr/high
school. I always figured that if I ever had kids I'd do my best to home school
them, and this article reinforces that desire.

~~~
dhimes
I've observed that homeschooling is an excellent option, especially for kids
in either tail of the "bell curve."

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jasonlbaptiste
I submitted this article because it's A) interesting b) I'd love to hear
everyone's thoughts here on what's wrong with the textbook industry + how to
innovate or fix it.

~~~
tokenadult
Give families the power to shop by funding learners rather than schools. This
is already done in the Netherlands, by per-capita enrollment payments to
schools and a system of general funding to all schools, even those with
religious affiliation or affiliation with a particular educational philosophy
(e.g., Montessori or Waldorf). The Dutch school system gets better results for
less money than the United States school system.

In the United States, some cities have tried experiments with voucher plans,
which again allow families to shop for schools, and generally deliver better
results at the same cost or the same results at less cost compared to the
current system of local oligopoly school systems.

If learners can shop, textbooks don't have captive markets, and better
textbooks will gain market share. (My basis for knowledge for this last
statement is that as a homeschooling parent, I can and do buy textbooks that
are MUCH superior to anything on offer in my friendly local public school
system.)

~~~
dhimes
_per-capita enrollment payments to schools and a system of general funding to
all schools_

Isn't that what's done here in the states? I know the charter system caused
huge political fights here in Massachusetts because, after being given a few
years to get established, they began taking money from the "regular" public
schools on a per-student-enrolled basis.

Many of those charter schools were consistently posting state test results
that surpassed the "regular" public schools' by a wide margin. We later
learned that at least some of those charter schools were exercising their
freedom to kick out students for whom they felt the experiment wasn't working
by return to the mainstream schools the ones who weren't doing well on their
exam preparation.

So, at least here, there is an ugly side too. It is unfortunate, because the
ability to experiment and determine what works the best is something we're
capable of doing in the US (it's so huge). Within a reasonably short time we
could probably come up with a pretty good system. I am still a fan of the
charter experiment, by the way, I just have to be careful judging the evidence
that I see.

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tokenadult
No state in the United States has the pervasive freedom to form new schools
and immediately obtain equal funding that one finds in the Netherlands.

[http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/recordD...](http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/recordDetails/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=ED316478&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=ED316478)

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dhimes
Thanks for the link, but I'll note here that it's from 1989.

~~~
tokenadult
The constitutional system of school finance in the Netherlands is more than a
century old.

~~~
dhimes
My point is that in the last 20 years things have changed here. For instance,
states obtained the right to start charter schools with funding.

~~~
tokenadult
All right. My point is that even with the most recent changes in the United
States (I live in the state with the very first charter school law, and with
the very first public school open enrollment law), there is still much more
power to shop for schools in the Netherlands than in any part of the United
States, and has been for a century.

~~~
dhimes
I'm not disputing your point at all. Here we are in the early experimenting
stage. Now that I've checked your profile, I recognize you from a group to
which we both subscribe (I lurk mainly, because my interests are commercial,
but occasionally I'll contact someone off-line if I think I can help).

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dinkumthinkum
I'd like to see more Great Books based curricula.But there is an argument to
be made that it would not work well in mass education. However, that's the
road I prefer.

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christopherolah
I'm working on writing an open-source math textbook. You can find it at
<http://christopherolah.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/math1.pdf> . I'd love any
feedback. It is very much a work in progress, though development will be
rather slow until June...

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rfreytag
I think textbooks might be like software. You don't build from scratch because
you are throwing out the hard won debugging that has gone into it. Here is
Joel Spolsky on this topic:
<http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html>

The problem is that a lot of the 'bugs' are artifacts of the political
sensitivities of various target market. The textbook business is only a
reflection of the nauseating educational system and the disservice it does to
our children.

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v4us
I think, that textbooks are "junk" knowlege products. It's good when you start
to study something, but not when you have a big knowlege backpack.

Think again.

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nazgulnarsil
mass education is, by its nature, about teaching kids with IQ's of 100. There
are many better ways to teach kids with IQ's of 85- and better ways to teach
kids with IQ's of 115+. But because we're more concerned with the ideal of
equality than concrete results we've made many avenues illegal.

~~~
joetrumpet
Do you have examples that follow this model and perform higher? I believe East
Asian countries, and Finland at the least in Europe, are very rigid and have
success. I'm curious to see the opposite approach too.

~~~
nazgulnarsil
it depends on how you define success. you can achieve great results with a
strict system if that system is oriented towards selecting the high performing
students. This is what the tiered college system in the european socialist
countries is according to what I've read.

I think In america we're trying to have our cake and eat it too. We spend our
time trying to make every student above average rather than orienting
ourselves to the reality of education.

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asciilifeform
Remember Paul Graham's "Things You Can't Say?"

A lot of you here probably suspect what the _real_ problem with education is.
Everything else (such as the textbook issue) is merely a symptom of it. Hint:
consider what country it appears to be almost entirely confined to, and
exactly when it began. I'll leave it at that.

~~~
eru
Not so fast. We also have (some) problems with education in Germany.

~~~
asciilifeform
There are some problems with education (and anything else) everywhere. But has
your country arrived at anything like the American situation, where high
school is worthless as a credential (e.g. does not guarantee basic literacy)
and college is the new high school?

~~~
eru
We have a three-tiered system. After elementary school, you go to either
Hauptschule, Realschule or Gymnasium. Hauptschule is essentially useless, and
Realschule does not guarantee literacy. After graduating Gymnasium pupils are
usually aged 19 years. And university can take another 6 years.

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sown
B-b-but it's a free market!!

~~~
gustavo_duarte
It's not. It's grossly distorted by government interference, as explained in
detail by the article.

~~~
dan_the_welder
More like lobbyist interference codified into law.

You got corporate lobbyists, you got religious lobbyists, you got idealistic
lobbyists. You got lots of laws.

Could you start a text book company today? Grab the smartest grads from your
local University to build a start up. Sell to the local district and grow from
there?

No you can't. Too may barriers to entry. Same problem in many other
industries. Intellectual property laws and copyright are mainly benefiting the
existing players.

Why does everyone want to do internet startups? Because the barriers to entry
are not fully locked down yet.

~~~
mseebach
The law _is_ government interference.

~~~
dan_the_welder
Yes it is, but where did the laws come from?

Did our elected representatives just wake up one day and say, "Let us make
laws so byzantine, that the people will weep and wail and rend their hair in
frustration!"

Well maybe, but I think it's really the lobbyists using carrots (money) and
sticks (fear o' God) on the government that got us into this boat.

~~~
mseebach
> Yes it is, but where did the laws come from?

From the government. What's wrong with government (including your carrots and
sticks), it what's inherently wrong with democracy. There will always be
benefits available to lawmakers who panders to those with money, and there
will always be interest groups (religious, unions etc.) to punish those who
don't pander to them.

Yes, I'm a small government conservative, and I can almost infer that you're
not, so let's just end the discussion here.

~~~
dan_the_welder
Do you just throw your hands in the air and say "Stupid PC!!!!" when your
program won't compile?

No, you debug.

This is about debugging a broken program.

Government is a broken program.

It has bad inputs and malformed syntax.

Immediately running for your existing label and attempting to label me
achieves nothing.

------
gregking
I've designed my solution from a student's financial perspective. If you can
build ideas with software and are passionate about this subject drop me a
line. Rails only thanks.

builderwanted@gmail.com

