
Police allow car break-ins to become a Seattle growth industry - kirillzubovsky
http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2024924914_westneat02xml.html
======
JumpCrisscross
I used to commute between Manhattan to Stamford. A 5AM train would take me up
and an 8, 9 or 10PM would haul me back. Staying awake for the duration of the
return journey was rare. This led to curiosities: going to sleep in Stamford
and waking up, four hours later, in Stamford again (Sartre had nothing on this
fate) because you slept through arriving and then re-departing from Grand
Central. Or waking up phoneless.

I lost my phone a few times. I have a habit of lolling over when dozing on
trains. This encourages my polished iPhone to slip out. The Metro-North line
tours a wide socioeconomic spectrum. I understand the temptation I was
taunting some of my fellow passengers with.

Most of the time the opportunists were savvy enough to turn off the radio. Not
always. Once I saw my phone blinking in from Rye. I stopped at their police
station and showed the officer my iPad. Without question, we were on our way.
The address I pinpointed resulted in a mother subjecting her son to an
Inquisition. Nothing came of it. We apologised. Copper suggested we try the
house across the street. Embarrassed from the last encounter, I demurred. He
walked up to the door.

A young man answered and yes: he had an iPhone. A few minutes later, I was
(mentally) $650 richer. (I went back to the lady at the first house with a
bottle of wine and the local bookstore's encyclopaedia of steamships—he had
boat models in his room).

New York City and State get a lot of shit for our police forces. And yes, we
have a high frequency of idiocy. But swinging the other way, towards
ineffectual policing—as Seattle appears to have—doesn't create strong
societies. +1 New York.

~~~
rayiner
I used to take Metro-North from New Rochelle down to Grand Central, and I miss
it so much. Four trains an hour during the rush, always arriving within a
minute or two of schedule. The 8:03 Amtrak between Baltimore and DC hasn't
been on time in two weeks. As for the wide socieconomic spectrum--the only
thing that ever bothered me about the crowd on MNR was the drunk suburban kids
that'd take the 1am with me Saturday morning. Nothing like coming home from a
long day at work and having some 19 year old Westchester brat puke all over
the floor.

------
lkrubner
This is the flip side of the new powers granted to police under laws such as
the Patriot Act. Yes, they have more power than ever before to spy on you. No,
they won't arrest criminals, even after you have tracked down the criminals
yourself. The government needs expanded powers so it can spy on you, not the
criminals. Certain classes of criminals are high profile (drug dealers!) and
there is a certain prestige in getting them, so the government is happy to go
after them. But if we are talking about ordinary criminals, then the
government can't be bothered.

This is the flip side of increasing police powers: the police are increasingly
immune to criticism, so they are increasingly lazy about going after the kinds
of criminals that ordinary people actually care about.

~~~
vorg
> the new powers granted to police under laws such as the Patriot Act. Yes,
> they have more power than ever before to spy on you. No, they won't arrest
> criminals, even after you have tracked down the criminals yourself. The
> government needs expanded powers so it can spy on you, not the criminal

Surely it's possible to use the same database collecting info on Patriot Act
violations to sift through and report on petty crimes also, even predict where
and to/by whom they might happen? If the police won't do it then surely
there's someone out there who could hack into the machines running the
algorithms for such terrorism and high profile crime prediction to do the same
for car breakins?

~~~
GhotiFish
>If the police won't do it then surely there's someone out there who could
hack into the machines running the algorithms for such terrorism and high
profile crime prediction to do the same for car breakins?

you were sane right up until you hit NCIS hacker territory.

------
panarky
Take care of the small stuff and the big stuff will take care of itself.

 _The broken windows theory is a criminological theory of the norm-setting and
signaling effect of urban disorder and vandalism on additional crime and anti-
social behavior. The theory states that maintaining and monitoring urban
environments in a well-ordered condition may stop further vandalism and
escalation into more serious crime[1]._

From the article: _There also was no proof who did the smash-and-grab, so even
if [the police] had come, it would have been tricky to charge them with
anything._

That's hogwash. Possession of stolen property is a criminal offence in
Washington State[2].

The crime and disorder in downtown Seattle is shocking, even to people from
other big cities[3]. In 2013, Seattle had 2,356 property crimes per 100,000
population[4]. By comparison, New York City had a property crime rate of just
795 per 100,000[5].

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory)

[2] [http://www.avvo.com/legal-guides/ugc/possession-stolen-
prope...](http://www.avvo.com/legal-guides/ugc/possession-stolen-property-
Washington-State)

[3]
[http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2021696782_westneat28...](http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2021696782_westneat28xml.html)

[4] [http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-
the-u.s/2013/p...](http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-
the-u.s/2013/preliminary-semiannual-uniform-crime-report-january-
june-2013/tables/table-4-cuts/table_4_offenses_reported_to_law_enforcement_by_state_oklahoma_through_wisconsin_2013.xls)

[5] [http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-
the-u.s/2013/p...](http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-
the-u.s/2013/preliminary-semiannual-uniform-crime-report-january-
june-2013/tables/table-4-cuts/table_4_offenses_reported_to_law_enforcement_by_state_montana_through_ohio_2013.xls)

~~~
BadassFractal
Just yesterday in the civic center area here in SF I'm getting a sandwich and
this mentally ill (or really high, or both) bum lady walks into the shop and
proceeds to howl at the top of her lungs for 10 minutes, dance around the
shop, kick down a bunch of seats. Right next to her is a hole in the wall
punched by some other mentally infirm person that same day.

Nothing. The staff is used to it, I'm used to it, the other patrons are used
to it, we just let them do their thing and hope they don't throw anything at
us in the process. This is right on Market St, you'd think the city would be
proud of its downtown.

What am I supposed to do as a resident? I'm not a cop, I'm not a lawyer, I'm
not a psychiatrist, I can't fix this. I'm just a guy who gives away something
like half of his income in taxes and it's not clear what's happening to all
that cash. If we're going to keep this place in an embarrassing state, I would
at least like some of my money back.

~~~
na85
Are you suggesting that the police need to intervene if someone is howling at
the top of their lungs and kicking seats? Did they do any damage?

Your attitude is the reason people with mental health issues often are
reluctant to seek help. Because they are stigmatized, and mental health is
quickly becoming criminalized.

~~~
BadassFractal
Unnecessary staw man, you're putting words in my mouth, I did not ask for a
police intervention or criminalization. I'm happy for this situation to be
resolved in whatever most humane and compassionate way possible. I'm in no
position to propose solutions, as I don't have any expertise in this field.

I would however love to feel safe when being outside of my apartment, instead
of wondering if one of these dozens of visibly infirm people I pass by on the
way to anything is about to assault me or do something else completely
unpredictable to me.

~~~
DanBC
People with a mental health problem are far more likely to be the victims, not
perpetrators, of violence.

Most violent crime is not committed by people with a mental illness.

While I appreciate the concern you show for the piss-poor inhumane brutal lack
of treatment your country provides to those with a mental illness (despite
spending more per capita on health) it'd be nice if you could do it without
stigmatising mental ill-health.

~~~
ketralnis
I appreciate what you're trying to say, but he's not talking about a random
sampling of mentally ill people. He's talking about a person that's kicking a
bunch of seats around and generally indicating a potential for violence.
Whether or not we're talking about mental illness, we're talking about someone
that's current _being_ violent.

~~~
DanBC
There's a clear extrapolation from that one person being violent[1] to the
idea that people with mental illness are in general violent.

> Right next to her is a hole in the wall punched by some other mentally
> infirm person that same day.

BadassFractal didn't witness that, but assumes it was done by someone with a
mental health problem rather than someone who's just an angry arsehole.

> I would however love to feel safe when being outside of my apartment,
> instead of wondering if one of these dozens of visibly infirm people I pass
> by on the way to anything is about to assault me

This is directly linking mental ill health to violence, and it's just as
abhorrent as linking violent crime to African Americans.

Those visibly infirm people are far more likely to be the victims, not
perpetrators, of violence -- even if you remove self-inflicted violence.

[1] to property, not as far as I know to people.

EDIT:
[http://depts.washington.edu/mhreport/facts_violence.php](http://depts.washington.edu/mhreport/facts_violence.php)

> \- "Although studies suggest a link between mental illnesses and violence,
> the contribution of people with mental illnesses to overall rates of
> violence is small, and further, the magnitude of the relationship is greatly
> exaggerated in the minds of the general population (Institute of Medicine,
> 2006)."

> \- "…the vast majority of people who are violent do not suffer from mental
> illnesses (American Psychiatric Association, 1994)."

> \- "The absolute risk of violence among the mentally ill as a group is very
> small. . . only a small proportion of the violence in our society can be
> attributed to persons who are mentally ill (Mulvey, 1994)."

> -"People with psychiatric disabilities are far more likely to be victims
> than perpetrators of violent crime (Appleby, et al., 2001). People with
> severe mental illnesses, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder or psychosis, are 2
> ½ times more likely to be attacked, raped or mugged than the general
> population (Hiday, et al.,1999)."

> The effects of stigma and discrimination are profound. The President’s New
> Freedom Commission on Mental Health found that, “Stigma leads others to
> avoid living, socializing, or working with, renting to, or employing people
> with mental disorders - especially severe disorders, such as schizophrenia.
> It leads to low self-esteem, isolation, and hopelessness. It deters the
> public from seeking and wanting to pay for care. Responding to stigma,
> people with mental health problems internalize public attitudes and become
> so embarrassed or ashamed that they often conceal symptoms and fail to seek
> treatment (New Freedom Commission, 2003).”

~~~
Kalium
OK. So now the question is "What can we do to help, given that there's already
lots of money sloshing around"?

Rather than lecture on what not to do, what do you propose as steps towards
resolving these problems?

~~~
DanBC
"don't stigmatise people with a mental illness" is the call to action.

Stigma prevents people getting help, even for mild MH problems that respond
well to talking therapy. Stigma increases social isolation and reduces
opportunities for work. We know that both of these make mental illness worse.

~~~
BadassFractal
Respectfully, I don't see how this is actionable for me as an individual. Ok,
I'm not stigmatizing people with mental illness, now what?

I still have hundreds, if not more people, with mental illness roaming
downtown, living on the streets, regularly leaving feces on sidewalks,
screaming at passerbys and expressing what appears violent behavior and
nothing is being done about it.

~~~
DanBC
I can't fix your police or healthcare systems, and I do appreciate that it
sucks if you have people behaving unpredictably around you. We do need to
remember that if they have a mental illness then they're probably not living
on the streets out of choice, and that if they had affordable meds and
healthcare you would be seeing a lot less people on the street.

What I can do is to ask you to not assume that violent behaviour is a result
of a mental health problem; or to not assume that a person with a mental
illness is going to be violent. (Apparently I can do that more politely than I
have so far.)

------
VLM
Its a stereotypical urban vs suburban vs rural thing. Its only new in the
sense of it being hip to live in urban areas. Always been this way.

There has always been a different social contract between the cops and each
social class. The cops have no idea why an urban person is calling them
because if they're upper class they are rich so they don't care and a normal
personal assistant isn't going to go all batman and hunt down thieves, and if
they're poor then they have their own ethnic / gang type of ways to fix this
in addition to deep seated victim shaming (she was asking for it, what kind of
idiot leaves her purse in a car in an urban area, etc). The urban cops just
don't know what to think about middle class people, or middle class outlooks
on policing.

In the burbs they'd do exactly what the author was expecting, dispatch a
squad, take care of business. In a rural area they wouldn't have a crime like
this, but something similar would be handled like the burb example. There's a
social contract and developed protocols and expectations and it would all be
OK.

Not saying its right or wrong, just saying its a fact that pioneers skeletons
always end up having arrows sticking outta their backs.

~~~
enobrev
I agree with your point that that's the way things go in the city. I've lived
in 4 major US cities in my life, and the cops respond to some things and don't
respond to others. It's generally a numbers game. I also agree that in the
suburbs and rural areas, the numbers work in the favor of the local police.

I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean in regards to the the ethnic /
gang type way of fixing things in poor neighborhoods.

Also, I'm not sure if you've been to Seattle. I lived there for two years,
recently. I wouldn't really call Seattle ethnic, gang-type, or poor.

------
freditup
I don't understand this story. Why wouldn't the police do anything? If I'm an
officer who's motivated by helping others, it's a clear way to do that. If I'm
motivated by a desire for justice, easy way to promote that. If I'm motivated
by power, I can go take down the thieves and bring them down a notch.

Perhaps one explanation is that the police get enough zany people calling in
about enough zany things that they don't take any info from ordinary people
seriously because it's that unreliable. But not sure if I even buy this
explanation myself.

Anybody with good knowledge of police workings have insight into why things
happen like they do in the linked article?

~~~
teddyh
The police are motivated by being _safe_ – actually dealing with criminals is
dangerous, so the police are motivated to avoid them.

[http://www.cracked.com/article_21830_cops-wont-help-
you-7-th...](http://www.cracked.com/article_21830_cops-wont-help-you-7-things-
i-saw-as-real-slasher-victim.html)

~~~
freditup
That's a great Cracked article, one of my favorites. But one guy's perspective
on a couple of cops in one specific incident is hardly conclusive. If being
safety is what motivates you, there are more sensible career paths than
policing.

~~~
teddyh
But there are no career paths that offer the same amount of power and
authority at the lowest level as being a police officer does. That is a
powerful attractor for the power hungry, but once they have the power, they
have absolutely no incentive to risk their personal safety.

------
donavanm
This is a silly op ed piece designed to generate outrage based on a single,
biased, anecdotal incident. The Seattle media, from kiro to the stranger, has
devolved to this on just about every issue. Whether the issue is crime, urban
planning, or bike lanes its much easier to generate their pennies from outrage
than actually reporting on a substantive issues. By reading these "stories" we
do nothing but reinforce the negative feedback loop.

If single sourced anecdotal evidence is all we need I'll share mine: In the
past two years my house has been broken in to once & prowled twice (that I
know of). My car has been broken in to twice. My neighbors cars have been
broken in to three times, at least. In every incident Seattle PD have been on
scene within 7 to 15 minutes. Reports after the fact usually get a single
car/officer. In progress has been multiple cars boxing in a sweeping the
neighborhood. As I recall canine has come out twice to try and track
perpetrators on foot. For the home burglary the responding officer spent about
an hour walking the scene, taking photos, and trying to recover prints.
Dispatch and responding officers have never been anything less than
responsive, courteous, and professional. But that's not enticing link bait, is
it?

Edit: The plethora of downvotes without comment are fun. Do you object to my
characterization of seattle media as "link bait" or posting my own anecdotal
incidents?

For context this is my neighborhood:
[http://spdblotter.seattle.gov/2014/10/24/shooting-suspect-
in...](http://spdblotter.seattle.gov/2014/10/24/shooting-suspect-in-custody-
after-standoff-in-south-seattle/)
[http://spdblotter.seattle.gov/2014/10/18/police-arrest-
man-f...](http://spdblotter.seattle.gov/2014/10/18/police-arrest-man-for-
shooting-which-sent-two-men-to-hospital/)

~~~
coderjames
So police kept showing up. Did any of that policing actually solve anything?
Sounds like a ridiculously high amount of crime for one person in two years.

~~~
donavanm
No. And even if it had led to conviction every time I personally dont believe
it would have solved anything either. However the main story is explicitly
about our police departments lack of "appropriate" reaction. And so my own
anecdote is explicitly about response and reaction, not results.

With regards to the high crime rate maybe Im just lucky. Some of those
incidents had overlap, like both my car and the neighbors. It's totaled about
5 calls in the past two years. The city of Seattle does a good job on
publishing crime & emergency services data in a timely manner. You're welcome
to browse from the original source or a number of third parties. For reference
my neighborhood is "Beacon Hill" bordering "Rainier Valley", south of I90.
[http://www.seattle.gov/police/crime/onlinecrimemaps.htm](http://www.seattle.gov/police/crime/onlinecrimemaps.htm)

~~~
cpwright
This is sure to be an unpopular opinion, but convictions and meaningful
sentences would likely have a positive affect. If there are only trivial
consequences to crime, then rational actors will be more willing to commit
them. If there are bigger consequences, they will be less likely to commit
them. Moreover, if the criminal is in jail; there is a period of time they are
taken out of circulation.

------
tonyplee
You can try to forward links to this article to all the current + future
politicians that is running in that area - anyone that is running for City,
County, State, Congress - CC a few the reporters in the area and asked for
statements from them on see what their responses, CC the head of police in the
mailing list also and CC dispatcher's name / email if possible.

From time to time, post their responses on some public forums.

My mom has accident in Sacramento downtown uneven sidewalk once, bruise pretty
badly. Her doctor take care of her. I just email the city manager + couple
elective officials 's public email addresses. I got 10+ follow up emails from
various folks in couple day and the issue was fixed in a few days.

------
Sonicmouse
If it were a celebrity or any other high-profile citizen, you know they would
bring out the SWAT team and the criminals would be locked up for 20 years.

But, when it's a "nobody important" tax paying citizen, then go f-yourself.

Congrats goes out to everyone who voted in the current representatives.

Wonderful job.

~~~
randallsquared
Do you really believe that voting in team A instead of team B would have
helped ordinary citizens?

~~~
PhantomGremlin
Yes, I believe that our republic is strengthened if, occasionally, "throw the
bums out" occurs. Even if it results in "meet the new boss, same as the old
boss".

~~~
psychometry
Not always. See: 2010 Tea Party backlash to Obama.

------
chrismealy
Seattle has half the cops that some big cities have (20 per 10,000 residents).
New York and Chicago have around 40, Boston 33.

[http://www.governing.com/gov-data/safety-justice/police-
offi...](http://www.governing.com/gov-data/safety-justice/police-officers-per-
capita-rates-employment-for-city-departments.html)

~~~
bhc
The level of public safety in a particular city frequently comes down to how
much property tax its population is wiling to pay.

~~~
icelancer
Property tax in King County is no joke; both percentage-wise and absolute
costs. Real estate prices are very high here and taxes are not friendly,
either (lack of state income tax is shifted elsewhere).

Spending two gazillion dollars on a stupid tunnel that is already going to
cost 2x estimates is just another fine feature of this idiotic bureaucracy in
my area.

------
iramiller
Perhaps this is a also a growth opportunity for a private security firm. Call
us, we will use our trained armed personnel to confront the suspects and
return your stuff.

I would hope that it would not take too many incidents of private security
'resolving' issues to see that a police force doing its job is a far more
preferred solution.

~~~
jedberg
I don't think it is legal to use deadly force to retrieve stolen goods, yours
or anyone else's. You'd have to staff your firm with off duty cops or
something to skirt that law.

~~~
GFK_of_xmaspast
In some states, you can use deadly force to prevent someone from stealing your
stuff.

~~~
npizzolato
But after they've stolen it you don't get to track them down and use deadly
force to get your stuff back.

------
homeinvasion333
Home Invaders, call all home invaders, Seattle and big City USA.

0.) alleged the Police are out chasing bank robbers and allow car break-in

1.)why important? the new 'cartel' pays extra for your PERSONAL info for
medical ID theft.

2.) the meth addicts who are up all night strike your mailbox to make sure
they have a complete profile on U.

3.)since your garage door opener or home address allows the HOME INVADERS to
get a copy of keys to your home.

4.) Mexican drug cartels have great stories they tell the neighbors, including
pesticide pest control, lost cat animal control with uniforms, etc. when a gun
is held to the head of your children, you will give up your pin, passwords to
online bank accounts and combination number to the secret safe.

5.) USA citizens Trust the Police, especially the Detroit ones who never sent
the rape kits to the lab. So, the serial criminals kept raping and home
invading.

6.) This pattern is nationwide. Police never use the Internet. In Florida, the
popular women fitness center car trunks break-ins target your wallet. Someone
keeps an eye on you while you are exercising at the fitness center. The new
master keys make it easy to take your WALLET, smartphone, HOME KEYS and even
spare set of car keys.

Does this happen during the day in broad daylight, with visitors from out of
town driving a 'rental car'?

when is your HOME INVADER going to invade?

------
efiftythree
Car prowl reports are generated by social networks in Seattle. Everything from
Facebook groups to community based Twitter accounts and blogs. Most everyone
here knows that the Police will do nothing so they have turned to a method
that basically tells people when prowl rates are up in their neighborhood. I
guess at least then they might have a chance to look up their insurance policy
info ahead of potential breakin activity.

------
jmspring
Washington is a conceal carry friendly state, I wonder how reporting an
attempt at a citizens arrest would have changed the situation.

Here in Santa Cruz we have a very high property/lifestyle crime problem,
thankfully the PD haven't given up, but the courts have made things here
basically catch and release.

The story basically comes down to laziness on the part of the police. Seattle
doesn't have the budget problems of Oakland where this same situation has
basically been going on for a decade.

~~~
PhantomGremlin
> Washington is a conceal carry friendly state, I wonder how reporting an
> attempt at a citizens arrest would have changed the situation.

I'm a big believer in the Second Amendment. It's not about duck hunting. And
in an ideal world what you suggest would be OK.

HOWEVER, we don't live in an ideal world. So IMO concealed carry is now about
_personal protection_ and not about retrieving stolen iPhones.

~~~
GFK_of_xmaspast
"It's not about duck hunting"

Yeah, it's about suppressing slave revolts.

~~~
PhantomGremlin
It's about a lot of things, not just slave revolts. E.g. the whiskey
rebellion:[1]

    
    
       [President] Washington responded by sending peace
       commissioners ... while at the same time calling on
       governors to send a militia force to enforce the tax.
       With 13,000 militia provided ...  Washington rode at
       the head of an army to suppress the insurgency
    

And also to help protect individual rights against an overbearing government.
Of course now that we've been providing every small town sheriff with APCs and
military weapons, that deterrent effect might no longer be as relevant as it
once was.

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_Rebellion](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_Rebellion)

------
kyleblarson
It seems like a day doesn't go by when I don't read an article like this one
and think of NWA's succinct summary of police in America.

------
ck2
So 911 honestly believed the thieves were armed and dangerous and refused to
dispatch? There's a lawsuit right there.

If they thought the victim was going to get shot, then you should have said, I
am going right over there now to 123 Main Street to confront them in so-and-so
colored car.

Then you wait and when the police show up at that car THEN you go over and
make the theft claim.

Victim was entirely too polite with dispatch.

------
wavesounds
When this happened to my friend in Berkeley CA we called the police and after
waiting almost an hour the officer that came didn't even get out of his car,
he told us to file a report online. There was a security camera pointed at the
lot which he said was "pointless" to try to access.

------
muyuu
This is the kind of environment that leads to the creation of vigilante
brigades and mafia-style syndicates.

------
rdl
I wish insurers could pay the direct costs of having state police (I think
there's statewide jurisdiction for all law enforcement agencies in WA, but WSP
would certainly have jurisdiction), bait cars, and some serious
resolution/retribution here.

------
azinman2
While a sad and interesting story, why is this on HN?

~~~
_delirium
Probably the same reason it's making the rounds on Facebook at the moment. All
else equal, this kind of website tends towards resharing/retweeting/upvoting
identitiarian, political, and outrage type stories. The management does make
an admirable effort to nudge it away from that, so a somewhat lower percentage
of HN stories are in that category, but it's still quite a lot of them. (Also,
it hits the "things of concern to affluent white American urbanites living in
the U.S.'s somewhat dysfunctional cities" category, which is somewhat
overrepresented here.)

------
dabockster
I'm learning Javascript and the MEAN stack right now, and I'm really
interested in building a small crowdsourced website for this.

------
adekok
The Seattle police lost a lawsuit about the ability to use overwhelming force:

[http://crosscut.com/2014/10/20/law-justice/122409/judge-
toss...](http://crosscut.com/2014/10/20/law-justice/122409/judge-tosses-out-
officer-lawsuit-against-use-force/)

But they won't use _any_ force against known criminals who are right in front
of them.

Could the two be related? Especially because the "non-arrest" policy for
break-ins appears to be recent.

~~~
GFK_of_xmaspast
Telling cops not to use overwhelming force is like telling white people not to
use racial slurs, the good ones are 'oh ok' and the others, hoo boy.

------
poopsintub
Call up your local news stations and see if they can put some pressure on the
police department?

------
rasz_pl
What you do when dispatch refuses to help you? you suddenly remember perp was
smoking pot and/or had a gun.

Or you could become an important politician. Couple of years ago whole police
force of my country capital city was mobilised because member of parliament
wifes car got stolen. Took them an hour to track it down using GSM
triangulation (purse with phone in the car).

Guess what happens when you tell cops your car was stolen, but you have active
tracker in it and can tell them where it is. Easier to get few big guys and
deal with it yourself.

------
autism_hurts
Again, the police are never there to help you.

~~~
danepowell
I disagree, and I don't think hyperbole furthers the discussion. I've been
helped by police in many cities (in America and elsewhere) on several
occasions. I've also witnessed harassment, abuse of power, and indifference-
fortunately less so than the former.

~~~
meandave
The above commenter stated "The police are never there to help you". as in,
that it is not their purpose. Although I have no doubt you have encountered
some police that went above and beyond their job description to help you, this
does not change the fact that helping you is not their job, or purpose.

~~~
brittonsmith
Many police cars used to have "To protect and serve" painted on their sides. I
certainly remember that, although I haven't seen it in years.

No one is saying they expect the police to carry your groceries inside. They
are law enforcement officers whose job description is to enforce laws. If they
can't/wont' do that because of external factors, then citizens should be told
the truth about why that is. Vigilantism comes from a sense of injustice, that
the system doesn't work for unknown reasons. Without that transparency, we are
left to fill that void in understanding with our imaginations.

------
tralala123
What??? I thought that if marijuana was legalized in Washington, that the
world would be a better place... Cops will be freed up to deal with "real
crime" and people would magically be better citizens...

What could have gone wrong? Nearly all crime rates have gone up.

------
IanDrake
"Help! A van with license plate XXX-123 just shot at a guy in the parking lot
here...hold on, what did you say...[muffled sound]...there's a badge on his
belt, I think he's a cop from (insert adjacent town). I can still see the van,
it just parked down the road at..."

You get the idea. Call it in from the nearest pay phone and leave. Guaranteed
response.

I'd only do this if I lived in an area with a bunch of deadbeat cops. In MA
our cops do their job without having to be tricked into doing it...the courts
on the other hand seem to let everyone off.

------
x0x0
This article is beyond stupid. The author spends a thousand words or more
whining without once mentioning either budgets or civilian oversight of the
police force. It's like the policy was created from thin fucking air, for no
reason at all! A cursory googling found this:

    
    
       In the weeks before Monday's formal unveiling, McGinn released several 
       details of his 2012 proposal, which will now be scrutinized by the City 
       Council. Councilmembers, who will pass a final plan in November, have 
       already indicated they're leery of the mayor's idea to reduce the Seattle 
       Police Budget by $2.4 million by keeping 26 sworn officer positions vacant. [1]
    

Wow, is there a possibility that could be related? I actually don't know; I
don't live in seattle and I don't really care. But a minimal amount of effort
for his readers would be asking the police chief or PR person why this policy
was created.

[1] [http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/McGinn-budget-
cuts-11...](http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/McGinn-budget-
cuts-112-jobs-deficit-90-mil-thru-2189304.php)

------
Chevalier
I really hate to see blind hatred for the police on HN. It's a tough goddamn
job, people, made all the more so by political pressure to improve statistics.
As pointed out elsewhere in this thread, police are forced to focus on serious
crimes and solvable crimes and avoid minor and unsolvable crimes. Nobody wants
it to work that way, but departments are hammered when they bring down crime
stats.

This story is pretty outrageous, but I understand why cops are leery of having
citizens pursue and enforce vigilante justice. This could EASILY have led to a
shootout. I have no explanation or excuse why the cops refused to investigate
the caller's lead -- and maybe there is no reasonable explanation -- but I'd
rather give them the benefit of the doubt than insist "police are never there
to help you."

~~~
vonklaus
Blind hatred for police seems to stem from experience. My father said once
(after I had a particularly horrible, and unfair besting, by the police) that
I had no respect for the police because I had never been in a situation where
I had seen heroism, or been helped. The police have never stopped a robber
from burgling my house, or stopped a violent crime from happening to me or
anyone I know.

The point is, that anecdotally, the police have never appeared to be a
positive force around me, except intangibly. They only seem to focus on things
I myself, and many of my peers, consider acceptable victimless crimes. They
focus on padding revenue by stopping speeding violations, and petty drug
offenses.

Largely, police appear to regularly abuse their authority, ignore relevant
data, and serve an agenda I am diametrically opposed to. Obviously, this isn't
a scientific study, but I think it encapsulates the hatred for police.

Also, there are many instances on youtube and the news, of them either
covering for fellow officers, or ignoring basic laws, like speeding, cell-
phone use ore petty drugs. They need to wear cameras for objective scrutiny
rather than be allowed to BE the law.

EDIT: I should say that of course, there are police officers who work hard,
are incorruptible and are genuine upstanding citizens who enforce laws and are
just. The simple fact is that a percentage of bad actors can disrupt the flow
enough to severely damage an institution if given significant power. See the
banking industry for an analogy of this. I do not mean to discount all police,
and many do positive things in society.

~~~
Chevalier
By comparison, have you ever had a really positive experience with the
dentist? Like cops, they're there to solve painful problems that cause very
unhappy memories. Anything that compels you to visit the dentist (or the
police to visit you) is not going to be associated with positive forces.

It's a tough job to recruit for, since so many people hate you:

1) Minorities hate you, since an overwhelming proportion of criminals emerge
from our ranks and successful crime prevention means locking up our families
and neighbors.

2) Liberals hate you because rappers do, and also everyone knows cops love to
frame black people for crimes nobody committed, and if they were committed it
was probably by a cis-male white patriarchy.

3) Conservatives hate you, because you're a public employee and an agent of
the gubmint that wants to seize everyone's guns and force gay sex on God-
fearing Americans.

Unsurprisingly, it's tough to recruit for the job. Plus, a huge number of cops
need to go undercover and are thereby recruiting from cultures that don't
share wealthier standards of etiquette. And even cops that don't come from
rough backgrounds are forced to constantly interact with awful people who
understand nothing but violence and rage. Mother Teresa would adopt thuggish
behavior after five minutes on the force.

This isn't to say there aren't bad cops, but they're a tiny minority of all
cops and largely reflect their communities. Isn't it weird how there are no
bad Canadian or Swedish cops? When you aren't faced with hatred and violence
all day, it's easier to be chill at traffic stops.

~~~
vezzy-fnord
_By comparison, have you ever had a really positive experience with the
dentist?_

Not the OP, but yes. All the time, in fact. Then there's also the crucial
difference that going to a dentist is a voluntary exchange, whereas being
stopped and frisked by police is an unsolicited act of aggression no matter
how you put it.

 _...successful crime prevention means locking up our families and neighbors_

Hardly. Locking up families and neighbors is the exact opposite of crime
prevention. It's treating the aftermath. Crime prevention should be analogous
to preventative medicine: minimizing the possibility of it occurring to begin
with.

Police by definition are reactionary agents. They don't have the competence or
the will to do anything other than handle aftermaths and create intimidation
in a dubiously effective attempt to scare off bad guys.

 _This isn 't to say there aren't bad cops, but they're a tiny minority of all
cops and largely reflect their communities._

Pareto principle: 20% of people do 80% of the work, or in this case make most
of the difference. It's also the reason why "Not all -ists are like that"
arguments don't work: they fail to realize that minorities in an in-group can
still be highly influential and destructive.

 _Isn 't it weird how there are no bad Canadian or Swedish cops?_

They aren't typically covered in international media. You don't see any bad
Serbian cops too often, either. Do they not exist?

~~~
Chevalier
"Hardly. Locking up families and neighbors is the exact opposite of crime
prevention. It's treating the aftermath. Crime prevention should be analogous
to preventative medicine: minimizing the possibility of it occurring to begin
with. Police by definition are reactionary agents. They don't have the
competence or the will to do anything other than handle aftermaths and create
intimidation in a dubiously effective attempt to scare off bad guys."

So... in your opinion, there's no value in removing criminals from the streets
because locking them up "is the exact opposite of crime prevention." There is
no such thing as a repeat criminal, and the fact that a small number of
criminals commit a disproportionate number of crimes is false.

In fact, black and Latino neighborhoods are enriched by the activities of
violent felons. Their presence inspires children to study and ensures the
safety of women young and old.

I would be very interested to visit your city and see this wonderland.

