
Ask HN: What is going on? - eoincathal
Bad day and ranting a bit, sorry. Just reached a very strange WTF moment. I&#x27;ll be submitting my notice at work on Tuesday (it&#x27;s a holiday on Monday). I&#x27;m no rock star programmer, I just hit my tolerance limits for ignoring problems on the purely professional front.<p>Then, later today I went for a drink with a colleague,  only to find he&#x27;s a holocaust denier, Hitler was only trying to do the right thing etc. I found I couldn&#x27;t mount any argument against his views - I had been indoctrinated etc, etc.<p>And then I come home and have a chat with my normally right-on room-mate, and somehow we get onto vaccinations,  and she&#x27;s considering not vaccinations her (future) kids on the basis her cousin hasn&#x27;t vaccinated here and they&#x27;re ok. And she is deeply suspicious of vaccinations in the face of decades of evidence supporting them. She left the room. I had tried to explain the basis of vaccinations, herd effect etc but just upset her (though calling her potentially negligent really did not help).<p>It&#x27;s a day where no amount of attempts at explanations are sticking.  On the professional front, oddly enough,  I&#x27;m more accepting of that.  But facts and history that I hold more dear are just getting eroded.  Is there a way to convince and persuade without alienating people?
======
pasbesoin
Once you start lying, you lose your credibility -- even when you are telling
the truth.

More and more people are coming to believe society -- "the state", doctors,
bankers, etc. -- has lied to them.

The thing is, they're not wrong. Just look at the "outsourcing/off-shoring's
good; we'll all become managers/bankers/lawyers/professionals" statements from
the '90's. (Here in the U.S.) Rescinding Glass-Steagall. (And don't forget the
Clinton administration's part in that) "Iraq has weapons of mass destruction."
Eat margarine (trans-fats), not butter. Bullies only hurt themselves... Oh,
and lately, "We'll only use these surveillance powers under extra-ordinary
circumstances. For terrorism. On foreigners. Well, unless they're talking to
someone from the U.S. Or we make a "mistake". Or we buy it from a third party.
Or we use a Stingray, that we definitely don't want to tell you about.
Parallel construction...

Authority is shifting its base, in many places, from credibility to power.

Making the incredible credible. Fostering a more base human nature.

The conspiracy theorists may be wrong about some things. But the authority
figures telling them this, have lost a lot of their credibility.

This is the real cost of the lies we're facing, from our "leadership" \--
political, economic, even scientific. (How many discredited studies,
advisories, medications, herbicides, pesticides, commercial processes...? And
not just discredited, but these results hidden as much and as long as
possible, for personal profit.)

How do I deal with this, in my personal life? I try to be as truthful as
possible.

Of course, my life experience with this puts me in mind of that song from
Depeche Mode:

[https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/depechemode/policyoftruth.ht...](https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/depechemode/policyoftruth.html)

But, the people I end up valuing, seem to value the truth I have -- warts and
all.

~~~
tptacek
The Holocaust deniers and antivaxers are, in fact, wrong. There's no "may"
about it.

------
phakding
Majority of people attach themselves to a viewpoint based on either emotions
or because someone they trust and respect told them so. And once they do, they
can't separate themselves from their views. If you try to attack their
beliefs, they take it as affront to themselves. When that happens, no amounts
of facts will change their mind. Instead they will just shut you out and their
beliefs will now be more firm.

I would love to tell you an alternative approach, but I don't know of any.

I have just given up. I just nod and say ok or change the topic. It's not my
job to change people's minds.

~~~
l33tbro
My only technique is to calmly ask them questions based on their beliefs. I
also don't really set out to change minds, but occasionally it can be amusing
to watch people walk you through the goofy logic of their fringe beliefs.

------
sasaf5
Once a friend went on a moon landing denial rant. I immediately started an
ironic spherical earth denial rant, copying every argument he was using.
Problem solved.

~~~
benbreen
I had a really bright student in one of my classes past year who was a moon
landing denialist. She said her best friend, who was a student at Berkeley,
had convinced her and was also a flat earther. I was shocked, until I learned
that they'd been indoctrinated via r/conspiracy and YouTube. Now I see that
stuff as a subset of the problems with social media in general - namely
distrust of the media and expert knowledge combined with the creation of
insular online communities that can lead into a new kind of groupthink.

~~~
sasaf5
Deep in my heart I still believe that the flat earth society is a massive joke
on conspiracies, and one day they will come out and say "ha!!! you thought we
were serious? super-gotcha!!!".

~~~
BjoernKW
I think they already did when they stated that there were flat Earth believers
all around the globe.

------
hjek
Yes, sometimes explanations and reasonable arguments can just derail
conversations completely. For preventing that, I find David Burns' disarming
technique[0] really useful. It is about "finding truth in what the other
person is saying, even if it seems blatantly wrong, or illogical, or
exaggerated." His podcast is amazing.

Perhaps part of what your room mate is saying is that she is concerned about
the well-being of her (future) children? Surely that's truly good. She's also
interested in avoiding certain medical treatments that are excessive or
unnecessary, which is also good.

Don't know about the Holocaust-denying colleague, but sometimes xenophones
have a fear of losing their job to someone else, which could leave them unable
to economically support themselves or their family, and maybe they really
enjoy the job they have. If your colleague talks about you being
indoctrinated, then he must have a high regard of the truth (which is good),
and if he's interested in how indoctrination works, he may even be interested
in reading about Chomsky's propaganda model[1].

Of course, this disarming stuff is only useful if you actually want to prevent
conflict with other people, and it's totally legitimate to have a conflict
with anti-vaxers and Holocaust deniers. But also, you live and work together,
and constant conflicts may not get you nor them anywhere but down.

Also, Last Week Tonight has quite a good episode on vaccines[2] (but showing
that to your roomie might not calm things down).

WTF indeed, though.

[0]: [https://feelinggood.com/2017/12/11/066-five-secrets-
training...](https://feelinggood.com/2017/12/11/066-five-secrets-training-the-
disarming-technique/)

[1]:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VG_s2PCH_c](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VG_s2PCH_c)

[2]: [https://chomsky.info/consent01/](https://chomsky.info/consent01/)

~~~
eoincathal
Thank you. I'll check out those links.

Long day, so will sleep on it before doing so.

Quite saddened by the day though.

------
csomar
Billions of people truly believe in the existence of a super-natural creature
up in the sky. Some devoting time, energy and tons of money.

Not something that should surprise given the scale.

~~~
tptacek
This is a facile and offensive argument. Non-atheists are not the intellectual
equivalent of Holocaust deniers or antivax advocates. All you're doing is
inviting religious flamewar, which is not allowed on HN.

~~~
csomar
Apologies if it was perceived this way. But I don't see how my comment link
non-atheists with Holocaust deniers? My point is: Some people are going to
believe things which are wrong (from your perspective) and that can happen at
large scales. There are extremes (like flat earth) or socially-emotionally
driven (like religious believes).

I say give anyone the freedom to have any opinion as long as he doesn't incite
violence or act on it.

For antivax it is really a complicated one. I don't have a problem with
antivax advocates but I have a problem with parents that don't vaccinate their
kids. And I think the government should act on the best interest of its minor
citizens.

~~~
tptacek
I'm sorry I misinterpreted you. My reaction to Holocaust deniers and, come to
think of it, to antivaxxers is visceral, and I saw an equivalence argument
that wasn't really being made. I'll work on being less jumpy!

------
bmarquez
You can only convince people that are open to being convinced. Usually I've
seen this take some sort of harsh real-world personal experience that
contradicts their existing world-view.

Personal example: I used to strongly defend Obamacare, and would dismiss any
arguments against it as trolling. Until I had to sign up with Covered
California, deal with the buggy website, wait on hold for hours, then deal
with higher deductibles and miscellaneous bureaucracy. Then I realized the
detractors had a point and basically switched sides.

Lastly, do you _have_ to persuade someone to take your point of view? Are you
able to be friends with them otherwise? If so, continue to be their friend and
wait until an event happens that leads them to question their beliefs. Then
subtly drop hints...remember, nobody likes to be told they're "wrong".

~~~
phakding
> Then I realized the detractors had a point and basically switched sides.

Just curious: you switched sides based on buggy website and "bureaucracy"? Did
the fact that ACA disallowed insurance companies from denying coverage because
of pre existing conditions or gap between coverage, got rid of insane life
time max limit of $1 million and brought millions of more Americans under
insurance coverage mean nothing to you?

~~~
bmarquez
And what good is "insurance" if you can't see your new doctor due to such
bureaucracy, or keep your previous doctor as promised?

Health insurance is not same as health care. Remember that.

------
scott_s
Something the skeptical community talks about when dealing with conspiracy
theories is that it's not enough to counter arguments and correct factual
claims. You need to give them an entirely different narrative. They've bought
into an entire narrative, a particular view of how everything works. THey're
not going to let go of that if they can't replace it with something else.

------
bjourne
I feel your pain but unfortunately I have no answers. There are people with
these insane opinions and they are spreading.

Two decades ago a school had a live debate between a teacher and a student
Holocaust denier. The teacher thoroughly demolished the students arguments
which made him look like a complete fool. Today the student (Björn Björkqvist)
is the leader of one of the largest Nazi groups and the teacher severely
regrets ever debating with him.

~~~
marktangotango
Sorry it’s not clear but why does the teacher regret debating him?

~~~
tomazio
I imagine it's because the teacher thought that destroying that person in a
debate with facts would change their opinion, but came to realize some people
just aren't worth the time or effort because they will never change their
opinions no matter how many facts you throw at them.

------
staunch
Consider that you're probably just in a bad state of mind. You shouldn't quit
your job or write these people off while you're in a bad place mentally.

When you're feeling better, you may find that your friend was just exploring
his dangerous thoughts in private with you, and your roommate is just ignorant
and/or nervous about vaccines.

You should probably just relax and focus on getting some strenuous exercise,
good sleep, healthy food until you feel better.

------
hluska
How are you? Are you okay? Do you need someone to talk to? My email is in my
profile.

I used to have this neighbour. The first time I met him, I thought he was
going to become a good friend. We talked for hours and I thought this cat was
alright.

The next time we talked, it turned out that he was a fucking anti-vaccer. Not
a word of a lie, he said "Do you notice there are more kids with problems, you
know, retards now?" He even put air quotes around 'retards'. In his cute
little worldview, that's all because of vaccines. Fuck! I lost another friend.

Or, there was this dude I worked with. I thought he was just about the coolest
person I'd ever met. He was so smart, he had amazing taste in music, he had a
great sense of humour and he even liked soccer. I thought I'd made a friend
for life.

It turns out that he takes freedom of expression literally and doesn't believe
in hate speech laws. In his mind, advocating for genocide against the poor or
mentally ill is totally fine.

This might be the most real thing I will ever write, but people will
disappoint you constantly. Some of the most amazing people will be nazis.
Other people won't believe in the scientific method. And still others will do
stupid fucking shit that will make your job suck.

Find people who you love and let them love you back. Be fiercely loyal to
those people because there won't be many of them.

And, when you meet fuckstains who believe in stupid shit, you likely can't
convince them. Or, you likely could though you don't want to. A vast part of
their identity relies upon this stupid shit. If you pierce the veil, you'll
have to put their shit back together. That's a fate worse than knowing anti-
vaccers and nazis.

~~~
raztogt21
I've never expected anything from anybody. Even the people I love; parents,
girlfriend, friends... all have flaws in their thoughts or opinions, just like
me.

Pick the best of each people and enjoy that.

------
htwillie
Why do you believe what you believe is true? Independant study? Easiest
possible explanation? Herd effect? Fear of standing out?

It's rare that you can change another persons mind. But you can try to
understand why they believe what they do.

You present vaccinations as an example, with "decades of evidence supporting
them." That's far less time than evidence supported a flat earth.

The thing is, some vaccines work pretty well. Others don't. It's complicated
by the fact that if they don't work, or if they injure or kill you, you can't
get your money back or bring lawsuits against the manufacturers or providers.

And there's no laws or regulations that say vaccines must work. Vaccine makers
can literally solubilize dog shit and call it a vaccine. And it will "work"
for quite a lot of people. There's billions of dollars counting on the us
believing they're effective. That blind faith in vaccines has been waning for
quite a while now.

~~~
open-source-ux
In many countries vaccines will only be licenced after rigorous safety testing
and extensive clinical trials. Those clinical trials will usually include
thousands of participants. After a new vaccine is introduced, it will continue
to be monitored.

It's simply not true that "Vaccine makers can literally solubilize dog shit
and call it a vaccine."

This information site from Oxford University provides an excellent summary of
how vaccines are tested, licensed and monitored in the UK. The process is
probably similar in many other countries:

[http://vk.ovg.ox.ac.uk/vaccine-development](http://vk.ovg.ox.ac.uk/vaccine-
development)

------
milestone
People are a lot less individualistic than you might think. If you want to
change opinions, change the messenger.

------
nso95
You have to pick your battles. Life isn’t going to get any easier.

------
sunseb
Why do you even care about other people's beliefs?

------
rajacombinator
Talking to people who disagreed with you made you have a bad day? Maybe it
could have been an interesting day if you put your ego aside and focused on
trying to understand them. What makes you so certain your beliefs are correct
anyway? Have you reviewed the evidence on both sides?

------
cmurf
>Is there a way to convince and persuade without alienating people?

In my opinion? No. Shame, humiliation, and ostracizing are the way to go. If
they refuse to think dynamically or critically, they need to feel rejected
from functioning society. In civil society, you follow certain normative rules
and laws. If you don't, you get ejected on way or another. This is good.

Insanity transfer theory: (I made it up, could be specious, buyer beware.)
Every person naturally generates a certain amount of insanity. To prevent
unhealthy build up, you need to transfer your insanity onto other people.
Basically the deniers are doing this to you, and it's making you nutty. So do
it back to them. I suggest ad hominem attacks in this case because a.) the
problem isn't about facts or arguments, these are flawed individuals actively
denying reality and trying to spread lies. b.) name calling in such a case is
fun, even if shaming them fails to change their behavior. Just make sure you
have fun doing it. And if not, dump them. If you can't make fun of their
stupidity, it's unhealthy to keep them around, they'll drive you crazy.

~~~
eoincathal
Nope. Can't take that line.

Colleague I'm not too bothered about - I wish I was better equiped to address
the attempts to bring me towards "Hitler was ok" but this is a person I can
walk away from. And that I'm unlikely to change.

And workwise, I need to be be assertive, but I think I'll always lose to the
argument with this owner - facts be damned. And those higher up the food chain
seem unwilling to say no.... This is a situation and behaviour I have little
control over.

But my room-mate I upset. She's a good friend and I have no wish to reduce or
demean her. The last thing on a trying day and I failed either to identify
with her concerns or find a way to get her (or myself) to think about them. I
just went off on one.

