
Apple Is Manufacturing a Siri Speaker - coloneltcb
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-05-31/apple-said-to-ready-siri-speaker-in-bid-to-rival-google-amazon
======
argonaut
People (rightfully) pointing out that Siri sucks compared to competitors
should realize that Apple is making a very serious tradeoff in favor of
privacy.

It's a huge handicap when you're only allowed to train models on device using
just one user's data, or only allowed to use various complicated privacy
preserving training methods (I'm not talking about taking a user's data,
removing the obviously identifying fields and sending it to the server, which
does not really preserve privacy except for simple statistics). There's no way
Apple can train the same super complicated deep learning models that Google
uses, for example, when Apple can't just gobble up all their users' data. And
all of the "provably" private methods for training models incur significant
accuracy penalties.

So it's a little rich that users on HN will complain about Siri on one hand,
and on the other hand complain about losing privacy.

In the end I think this is a fatal mistake for Apple: people love to complain
about privacy, but time and time again reveal through their purchasing choices
that they don't actually care, especially when there's usability tradeoffs.
Apple would be better off vacuuming up all their users' data if they don't
want to be crushed by Google/Amazon.

~~~
wand3r
Of the 3 companies, Apple is likely the _most_ privacy centric. However, they
have a fuck ton of private data. You raise an interesting point; it may
explain some percentage of why Siri is worse. Although, it has been in use
longer and is still pretty shit. Apple sends a lot of telemetry and search
data.

Also, I find it baffling anyone would want to put an internet connected always
on mic in their house no matter who makes it. Insane.

~~~
adpirz
How much worse is it than an internet connected always on mic on your person
at all times, which also tracks your every move to boot?

------
Sargos
Hmm, I think this will be a tough market to compete in for Apple. I think it's
generally accepted that Siri is the worst of the assistants out there right
now and that underlying technology will drive this entire new product. I
really think Apple is going to need to decide between privacy and AI research
as they are struggling to keep up and having a product like this will only
make that gap more pronounced.

~~~
vannevar
The problem may not be the Siri software, it may be the iPhone hardware. I
believe the Echo has a pretty sophisticated microphone setup that is light-
years better than an iPhone's. Apple is generally pretty good at hardware, so
they could catch up quickly there.

~~~
bobsam
The last 1/3 of your comment contradicts the first 1/3 :)

~~~
vannevar
The iPhone is a phone, with all the space and power limitations inherent in
that form factor. A standalone speaker is something else entirely.

~~~
IanDrake
True, but I speak directly into my phone, which I assume is a big advantage
for the phone?

~~~
vannevar
Seems like it would be. I never use Siri speaking directly into the phone,
because if I have the phone in hand, I just do whatever I need to do and skip
Siri. The only time I try it is when the phone is out of reach, or in the car.

------
ProfessorLayton
All these companies keep pushing voice input as _the_ way to interact with
their personal assistants, I personally feel that it would be 100x better to
let me interact with them however I choose. In my experience, voice
recognition is just not there yet, especially noisy environments, even if some
companies are better at it than others.

If I could just type something into Siri I would use it countless times more.
Most of my frustration comes from it misunderstanding me, often resulting in
me pulling out my phone and typing in my question into search engine anyway.

Additionally, I do not want my business spoken aloud.

~~~
eveningcoffee
Worse, using voice recognition allows companies to store your voice samples,
that allows them to generate your voice fingerprints, that allows your
presence to be detected once you happen to say something out loud in proximity
of such devices.

~~~
rubatuga
That's only google, Siri doesn't work that way.

~~~
pawadu
From Apple's website: _" processing is done by remote servers, it requires a
data connection"_

From Apple employee: _" only collects the Siri voice clips in order to improve
Siri itself"_

Which is basically what Google says.

EDIT: both companies have promised "off-line" processing, whatever that means,
but I don't know if any already does that. Note that off-line processing does
NOT mean they won't store your voice clips on their servers.

------
markolschesky
No Spotify, no buy. Being locked into Apple Music is a non-starter for me.
It's still mindboggling to me that Siri can't/won't interface with my Spotify
account. My lowly Amazon Echo supports this just fine. In fact, I prefer it to
the spotify UX/UI.

~~~
cptskippy
This is same reason why I refuse to use Fire TV, Android TV or Apple TV. I'll
stick with Roku until the walled gardens fall.

I would suggest Roku make a digital assistant as well but it would probably
come in 4 different models ranging from wholly unusable to outrageously
expensive, have a purple bow tie, and need to be replaced annually with the
latest model.

~~~
the_common_man
Roku itself is a walled garden. You cannot develop apps for them unless you
are blessed by them. Last I checked the SDK was closed (as in, closed to even
try out developing for Roku).

~~~
unwiredben
The BrightScript API for Roku app development is freely available, and any
Roku set-top box or Roku TV can be put in developer mode where you can
sideload your own channel. You can also upload private channels where users
can install your content via a weblink -- they have to go through
certification to be in the on-device Roku Channel Store. All developer docs
and samplers are all on GitHub, see
[https://github.com/rokudev](https://github.com/rokudev)

------
redial
I hope it is as impressive as the rumors claim as it'll help legitimize the
"Speaker AI" market, but...what Apple needs to learn is that a product, no
matter how advanced it may seem at launch, means nothing if they don't update
and support it continuously.

The iPad and to some extent the Apple TV both have top of the line hardware.
The software on the other hand...improvements every 2 or 3 years don't inspire
confidence.

Updates to Siri once a year would kill this product.

------
Yhippa
Normally I would count this as an auto-win for Apple but the interesting thing
about these speakers isn't necessarily the hardware itself but the many
services that back them. I play with both Home and Echo a lot and I'm most
impressed by how quickly Google is adding lots of useful functionality. Their
documentation and evangelism for developing on their platform seems to be
pretty good too. I think Apple will catch up quickly as they did with the
Watch.

~~~
stdgy
As far as I'm concerned, Siri is on death watch until Apple figures out a
strategy to open it up. Outside of setting timers, creating reminders, setting
alarms, doing a little dictating or mishearing directions, the product is
stagnant.

I just don't see a lot of utility going forward unless they liberalize the
service and allow other people to develop new experiences for users. That
should also give them new data to mine and allow good voice UI patterns to
bubble up.

Not sure how they should go about designing a framework for developers to
plug-in to, though. It's a tricky problem. But presumably they've learned some
things after 'sharing' some of Siri with Uber and Facebook and that could help
them move forward.

~~~
dkrich
I think that Apple has bet (correctly) that voice is a feature not a platform
and that great hardware will make people buy into its services. Voice is great
for a few things but very lousy for most things. Obviously it's all conjecture
at this point, but my guess is that this product will augment the use of its
devices for the things that voice is superior to GUI for (playing music and
basic queries). Since Apple typically blows the competition out of the water
with design and marketing, I imagine that this will do pretty well in this
space (just imagine walking into an Apple store and seeing an IKEA-like
display with a sleek home theatre and its speaker system on display).

I do think that the walled-garden is concerning since you can't use it with
all music services, for example, but on the other hand, if its a premium
speaker system that might be enough to push me the other way and switch to
Apple music. The question is is the product compelling enough to get people to
buy into the platform.

~~~
stdgy
I agree that voice is lousy for many things, maybe even most things. And I
think Apple is uniquely positioned to offer an end-to-end experience across
devices (desktop, laptop, phone, watch, house/speaker) and that their design
sensibilities could lead to a top notch speaker. I think the product will find
buyers. But it's ultimate utility will remain in question until Siri improves.

I think part of the problem is that the things 'voice' is good for tend to
have humans on the receiving end that then carry out complex, human actions.
"Stu, could you schedule a dinner for me at a good local Italian place at 7:30
and invite Scott and Robin?"

Well shoot, that is a lot to unpack! It's a hell of a lot for a computer to
unpack. It's a lot for anyone to unpack unless they know you and your circle
of contacts. Carrying it out would require interaction with at least 3 people
over a variety of mediums.

I suspect that by opening Siri up (And other digital 'assitants') it might
promote the growth of infrastructure and services that would begin to make
some of these more advanced queries a little more tractable.

~~~
TheOtherHobbes
I think that's very much the problem. Current voice systems are really just
API-command-by-voice, maybe with a tiny amount of context awareness.

To be really compelling, voice needs to offer the whole AI concierge
experience. At a basic level, it needs to be able to deal with queries like
"Find me a good place to stay in Barcelona" and "Find me a new jacket". It
needs to ask questions as needed, to operate with the initiative to search
tens or hundreds of sites, and to recognise the useful data in the results.

With Google, Amazon, and the rest, search is becoming more and more of a
problem, not less. For non-trivial searches, finding good products and/or
reliable information can be incredibly time-consuming.

So currently voice is a bandaid on top of search tools that aren't progressing
much, and may even be regressing. Voice has to solve the search problem first
before the recognition and context awareness problems really become important.

It looks as if the industry is to trying to do this the other way around. I'm
not convinced that's going to work. It works up to a point, but the point
isn't as advanced as users expect it to be, and the overall experience can be
disappointing.

------
stevewillows
I still don't understand the desire to have any sort of electronics constantly
listening for commands. In the balance between convenience and privacy, to me,
devices like this don't seem to add enough value to draw me in.

~~~
conductr
I agree. It's weird as f __* having every word spoke in my home recorded. I
guess they say they 're not recording, but you know they are or will soon.

~~~
grillvogel
they are recording, there was a murder case recently that used the alexa voice
recordings as evidence

~~~
hbosch
Incorrect. Police asked Amazon for a murder suspect's Alexa history, and
Amazon initially refused until the suspect/customer gave permission. It is yet
to be proven if anything was recorded without the wakeword.

------
philip1209
Last-mover advantage seems to be Apple's specialty.

------
tapoxi
Are these home speakers the new smartwatch? A product that every company has
to make because it's "the big new thing" but the actual functionality is
questionable?

I don't understand why I'd want a tiny speaker sitting in my house listening
for commands, when I already have that on my phone and it can provide a
display of the results, along with voice.

~~~
blakesterz
There was a great "Ask HN" thread a while ago on this and I read everything
thinking "oh good, power users will tell me what I'm missing here" and when I
was done I was left thinking "I am not missing anything here". In their
current form, they just didn't seem to do all that much that would make any
measurable difference in my life. I have an echo, it was plugged in a for a
week and everyone forgot about it.

~~~
Eridrus
I have a Google Home, rather than an Echo, but the biggest changes are the
fact that I listen to a lot more music and I have it hooked up to a Logitech
Harmony Hub so that I rarely need to hunt down the TV remote. "Hey Google,
Turn on the TV // Pause Roku // Volume down" are pretty useful shortcuts I
have configured.

------
dchuk
Going to be hard to outdo Google and Amazon with the dogshit that is Siri. Ok
Google and Alexa are lightyears ahead of Siri in terms of voice recognition
and response.

~~~
jrs95
But at least it probably won't activate when someone on your TV says "Alexis"

~~~
cptskippy
If that's all that's activating your Echo then consider yourself lucky.

------
mmanfrin
Macrumors says they are going to differentiate themselves by deeply
integrating with the Apple ecosystem and having a better speaker.

These aren't real selling points.

Google Home integrates very well with Google products (out of the box I
thought to try asking it to 'play the latest video from [youtube channel] on
my shield', and it worked, exactly as expected.

As far as speakers, Amazon _started_ with a device that had very good
speakers, and has since downgraded to a puck.

~~~
CharlesW
FWIW, the speaker on the original Amazon Echo isn't very good.

(I also own small Bluetooth speakers from Sony and Anker, and both are
appreciably better for music — enough so that I go out of my way to use them
while cleaning or whatnot, even though the Echo is right there.)

------
clintcparker
I keep wondering why they don't open Siri up to the command line or
applescripts. It seems like that would be a great way to grow the Siri
ecosystem. Does HN have any ideas why it is so locked down?

------
Analemma_
If they don't turn some kind of key that makes Siri about 10x better than it
is now simultaneously with release, this thing is DOA.

~~~
mortenjorck
Without visual feedback to see misheard phrases in real-time, the form factor
alone effectively necessitates a massive increase in accuracy.

------
robalfonso
It's not the hardware - it's the software. I went all in on Amazon Echo and
Dots. I have them in my living room, office, bathroom, bedroom.

The ecosystem that Amazon provides is far richer than Apple can hope to
provide. Google does seem to be better positioned.

Even if the hardware is amazing, I don't want Apple music (I have prime music)
the voice assistant is no better and I have serious doubts about the
integrations that will be available.

Whats going to make this DOA is integrations, it's not in Apple's DNA and its
going to be the best sounding, most beautiful, most seemless voice assistant
nobody wants. I hope I'm proven wrong.

------
ebbv
More evidence today's Apple lacks vision. These products are niche. Some
people love them I know. But look at the sales. They are not appealing to the
mainstream. The future of digital assistants is not dedicated devices in every
room of your home. I'm not sure what it is but it's not that.

------
rubatuga
I believe the best way to interact with Siri is through the Apple Watch,
something that is always attached to you and doesn't require you to shout
across the room. The Watch also connects to Wifi, and can work independently
of the iPhone, allowing Siri, iMessage, calling etc. Also, the siri speaker
has to deal with the possibility of multiple users using "Hey Siri" while the
apple watch can be tied to an individual person.

------
jerrysievert
I've had a hard time finding much useful with these devices - anecdotally even
my friends have been ditching their Echo's.

I've ended up dropping my usage to setting timers and turning on/off lights,
both of which don't work with Siri in MacOS.

I'd hope that they'd get their own ecosystem in order before adding yet
another gadget, but that's not happened time and time again under Cook's
leadership.

------
bitmapbrother
Multiuser voice recognition is now table stakes for these type of devices. Not
to mention contextual inference, free phone calls and screen casting.

------
myrandomcomment
So I really have tried to use Siri. Really. I want it to work. My home
ecosystem is all Apple (for the user facing devices). However most of the time
with anything beyond "set a reminder or set an alarm" I give up and just do it
the old fashioned way. Part of the issue is that the backend search results
are just no where as good as Google. IIRC Apple is using Bing for that..Ugh.

------
thebouv
If I could make Siri consistently "Call Mom" without asking "Which Mom?"
showing "Carla's Mom", "Erica's Mom", and "Mom" I'd be happy with Siri.

But I literally have a single contact named "Mom" that is also starred as a
favorite.

Yet sometimes Siri calls my mom, and sometimes she asks me "Which Mom?" even
though I always choose the same one.

Jerk.

~~~
cptskippy
Google's Assistant isn't any better at this sort of inference. I have my
wife's work and cell number and I get asked any time I use it which one though
I'm reasonably sure I have never once caller her work number.

The Google Assistant happily asks me if I want to finish researching "Care
Bears" because I once searched for them on Amazon using Firefox in Incognito
Mode on a friend's computer but it can't seem to figure out that I always only
ever call my wife on her cellphone.

~~~
bitmapbrother
Google Home is able to infer which "mom" you're referring to as demoed at
their I/O 2017 presentation.

[https://youtu.be/Y2VF8tmLFHw?t=33m32s](https://youtu.be/Y2VF8tmLFHw?t=33m32s)

~~~
cptskippy
Uhuh... I tried to ask it for directions to Mom's tonight in the car and then
for my mom's address by her full name and it failed on both attempts. It did
however manage to find her Pinterest account.

------
cmsimike
I wonder what condition this Siri will be in. I feel pretty slighted by Apple
in their decision not to include HomeKit in MacOS Siri.

------
draw_down
I still haven't seen a compelling use of these things. It could still happen,
but haven't seen it yet.

~~~
pbarnes_1
There really isn't one. But normal people (i.e. non techies) use these things
for small "factoid" type situations. Weather, sports scores, stuff like that.

It takes longer to ask a thing what the weather is than looking at my phone,
but that's just how it is.

------
paul7986
Maybe and finally a dedicated App Store will be established and developers can
make money from the apps/new skills they create for Apple's AI speaker!

Right now on the other platforms devs are creating skills but there is no
revenue stream for your efforts!

------
Jayakumark
Siri is worst for indian English Accent like me, Could not even compare it
with Google. Google is light years ahead , it can recognize my english 100%
and most of the times even transliterated tamil spoken in English (another
local indian language)

------
pbarnes_1
The problem, for me, is that Siri is just really dumb in comparison to Alexa
and Google Assistant. And those aren't that smart yet either.

------
tdburn
Hey if they can bring something that truly differentiates from the other two
that would be awesome. Home kit doesn't give much hope.

------
skdotdan
I don't understand this focus on speech-as-interface.

~~~
singularity2001
try to communicate with your friends without talking and you might understand
the usefulness of speech-as-interface

------
grillvogel
does apple still innovate anymore or just follow trends that are already on
their way out?

~~~
drewrv
Apple has always refined things that are almost working but clunky and awkward
to use. Mp3 players were terrible for non-nerds for example. Browsing the web
on a palm pilot sucked. Apple's problem now is that their competitors are
building pretty good stuff. Echo is a great combination of hardware and
software. Surface laptops and tablets are quality.

VR/AR is an area where everything is clunky and awkward to use and Apple could
probably build something really amazing here but the market size is tiny and
the use cases are outside of apples wheelhouse (industrial applications and
gaming right now).

------
dkonofalski
Oh great... another self-driving car project... /s

To me, this just feels like another jump on the bandwagon. I have an Echo and,
while it was awesome at first, with all the skills and everything it feels
less amazing than it did when I first got it. Now, I feel like it mishears us
all the time, it doesn't give the answers we'd normally get unless we say
things in a very specific way, and all the cool tricks ("Who is the mother of
dragons?") are just gimmicks now.

Unless Apple can actually make their version useful and able to understand
questions that aren't formed in "robot" as the language, I don't see the point
of this.

~~~
Yhippa
I've found the Home useful. All I can use the Echo for is to set multiple
simultaneous kitchen timers and to play music while cooking. The Echo just
doesn't seem to be able to handle natural language well or there isn't support
for what I'm asking.

~~~
Macsenour
I use my Alexa also for listening to Baseball which, correct me if I'm wrong
Internet, Home can't do.

~~~
Eridrus
I have no idea where one would listen to baseball, but Home has the ability to
play radio stations at least through TuneIn and iHeartRadio:
[https://support.google.com/googlehome/answer/7071793?hl=en](https://support.google.com/googlehome/answer/7071793?hl=en)

One of the examples is playing ESPN Radio.

------
thrillgore
It must be an unusual place for Apple to be in, chasing trends as opposed to
setting them.

~~~
Someone
Unusual? _If_ the 'outdo' of this article really is OUTDO, it would be a
repeat of what they did with MP3 players and mobile phones.

Thats a big if, though. Services aren't Apple's strongpoint, and their stance
on privacy means they may have to do a lot of the processing in the device,
and limit their ability to rapidly improve their offering.

~~~
eridius
> _Services aren 't Apple's strongpoint_

They aren't? Tell that to the teams that run iMessage and the iTunes Music
Store.

~~~
benburleson
Exactly; those are not mainstream services any more.

~~~
bykovich2
What do you mean? I use iMessage probably hundreds of times a day (to my
chagrin, but I digress). The Music Store has been overtaken by streaming
services, but it made a titanic impact on the market -- and as much hate as
Apple Music gets, it's actually a completely adequate service.

------
S_A_P
Here is where Steve Jobs would have said "No". stay focused apple...

~~~
proee
At least see the product first, before making such a statement. Apple does
quite well by entering a market late (digital music, phones, etc.) and then
dominating it by making superior products and user experiences.

If Apple releases the product and it's just a "me too device" with nothing
new, then your statement is reasonable.

------
itomato
Innovation via duplication.. Genius!

------
excalibur
> Apple Inc. is already in your pocket, on your desk and underneath your
> television. Soon, a device embossed with “Designed by Apple in California”
> may be on your nightstand or kitchen counter as well.

Nope, nope, nope, and nope.

