
A Week in the Life of a McDonald’s Cashier - danso
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/zmjjnj/how-i-get-by-a-week-in-the-life-of-a-mcdonalds-cashier
======
cixter
Coming from Norway, this article is horrendous. I can never understand the
mentality that lies behind all of the arguments most you guys are presenting
here - defending the employers shit salary and rights.

You guys know that McDonalds manages to run in countries with decent wages as
well, right? And that maybe a company with a yearly global profit of over 10
billion dollars might be able to afford giving their employees a livable wage.
Hell, just the fact that it`s possible to have a full time job in the US, and
still need food stamps should be a massive, red flag about your situation. But
for some reason you prefer to (by extension) defend the extremely rich owners
of these companies.

~~~
systemtest
I'm not from Norway but the Netherlands. If you have a fulltime job at
McDonalds, the only way to live on that wage is with heavy subsidies from the
government. You will need healthcare subsidy, rent subsidy, social housing,
various municipal arrangements and perhaps even go to the "voedselbank" (food
bank, free food charity).

So while you can live on a McDonalds income, it's only because your fellow
citizens are chipping in. Effectively we are subsidising McDonalds as they can
now give you a lower income and get away with it.

I'm not sure if that is the best way to go.

~~~
apexalpha
Dutch here, too. While everyone below a certain income gets benefits like
healthcare subsidy you can still live okay on a McDonalds salary. If you make
€10 an hour you get €1600 a month. And at that level you pay almost no income
tax. While not a lot, you don't necessarily need the foodbank or other
subsidies than the regular ones to make ends meet.

~~~
eptcyka
Just 5 years ago, I would've considered 1600 Euros or the pound equivalent a
month to be plenty of money. At the time, I was a student living in the UK.
Some years earlier still, whilst back in my native baltic state, that kind of
a monthly income would seem super comfortable.

~~~
ido
The biggest difference is that housing is a lot more expensive in western
cities - it is likely that even a modest 2-room (1-bedroom) apartment in a
major city like Amsterdam would cost the majority of that wage to rent (and
we're not talking about just students, but older people who can't get better
jobs).

~~~
tripzilch
You say it like you just grabbed a random example, but Amsterdam is one of the
most expensive places to rent in NL. It's also generally not at all
representative for the Netherlands as a whole.

~~~
ido
Ok, you may replace it with London, Paris, Zürich, Munich, Copenhagen,
Stockholm and probably a dozen other western european cities (not to mention
major American cities, which are sometimes even more extreme).

------
duxup
I worked a pizza (among others) job through high school and college.

I've been overworked at many professional technical jobs in different roles
before.

I'm paid a great deal more now, and yet I was never more tired or worn out or
found it hard to study than when I worked the ovens at the pizza place.

I often work with people who have never worked such jobs. They're upset that
they're 'overworked' and spend their time in the fancy break room with all the
perks. Many I suspect have no clue.

~~~
derg
>I often work with people who have never worked such jobs. They're upset that
they're 'overworked' and spend their time in the fancy break room with all the
perks. Many I suspect have no clue.

Not that it's a realistic idea but damn if everyone had experiencing working
in the demanding, underpaid, crappy jobs in the service industry, we might be
more empathetic and better off as a whole.

~~~
jackhack
I agree wholeheartedly with this. Everybody needs a &^%$ job once in a while
to reset their empathy scale.

Walmart does something interesting for their software development process. Say
a developer is working on a warehouse automation system -- that dev. is then
trained and works in the warehouse for a month. Same goes for
checkout/cashier, or customer service, or whatever. You WORK that job for a
month and you'll understand just how trying it can be to struggle with lousy
software on top of a sometimes difficult public. You'll know the trouble spots
and the workarounds, and can take that education back to a nice safe quiet
desk where you can then go on to help solve the problems.

~~~
freeflight
_> Everybody needs a &^%$ job once in a while to reset their empathy scale._

Imho that's trying to solve a symptom, not the actual problem.

Why does society tolerate &^%$ jobs in the first place? Why not strive to make
jobs non-&^%$?

Instead, it somehow has become completely normalized that these kinds of jobs
exist, and anybody who doesn't want to work them is considered "too entitled",
which all goes back to this notion of "work as a virtue".

And while the idea that this experience might help change something from the
desk job, the reality is most people will just be glad to be having their desk
job, with a lot having a mindset of "I went through the &^%$ jobs to get here,
everybody else should have to suffer like I did!".

~~~
scarface74
So are you saying that we shouldn’t have any jobs like the ones at McDonalds,
the convenience store, etc?

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
It's pretty obvious that @freeflight mean these jobs don't necessarily _have_
to be _shit_.

They can be low / lower pay and still be a fairly reasonable place to work
with fairly reasonable people to work with.

But, if we accept that work conditions fit some kind of natural distribution /
bell curve, it's probably unrealistic to believe there will be _no_ shit jobs.

------
soulofmischief
_I’ve worked in the fast food industry for 14 years—about half my life_

Can someone give me an anecdotal example of how this could come to be without
some fault in Brown's decision-making process?

For starters, I've always heard that commute time is inversely proportional to
career mobility. I made it a rule not to work anywhere farther than half an
hour away. And that is the absolute maximum which was necessary when I lived
rural area. Currently, I work remote, which has indeed provided more time for
further career training.

My mother has worked at the same minimum-wage food joint for almost eight
years. She tells me it's because she's "comfortable" and friends with everyone
there. Personally, I think it affords her the time and lack of responsibility
needed in order to engage in non-moderated drug use. This was certainly the
reason she was usually unemployed and unable to provide the most basic
resources for me as a child. If I bring up this or her other time-sucking
addictions such as mobile gaming / simulated gambling, she becomes very
defensive.

Regardless of the reason, comfort breeds complacency. Complacency leads to not
making a meaningful change to your career trajectory in a 15-year period. As
someone who grew up in relatively abject poverty, most of the positive things
in my life have only come from within, due to my determination to succeed
despite numerous setbacks. Sometimes I find myself having difficulty
empathizing with people who seem reasonably intelligent but have been in the
same situation for 10-20 years.

~~~
astronautjones
> My mother has worked at the same minimum-wage food joint for almost eight
> years. She tells me it's because she's "comfortable" and friends with
> everyone there. Personally, I think it affords her the time and lack of
> responsibility needed in order to engage in non-moderated drug use. This was
> certainly the reason she was usually unemployed and unable to provide the
> most basic resources for me as a child. If I bring up this or her other
> time-sucking addictions such as mobile gaming / simulated gambling, she
> becomes very defensi

a lot of society's problems come from people in power and/or wealth projecting
their anecdotal, perhaps personally bitter experiences (like yours with your
mother) onto everyone that isn't making a healthy wage. It's over 40 million
people, we are not all like your mother.

~~~
soulofmischief
I hope I don't come across as projecting. I am just sharing my own experience
in poverty. I am still not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination and I
have no support network.

Obviously everyone is different. This is why I asked for other points of view
for a better sample size.

~~~
oarsinsync
I come from a poor family. My parents made a point of never spending any more
than the bare minimum amount of money on me, and both had to work full time
jobs. I would make my own way home from school every day from the age of 7. I
would make my own way to school from the age of 11. School was a 90min bus
ride one way, or a 30 min drive (60 min round trip, x2 for start+end of day).

That doesn't change that I had both parents and teachers who cared about me,
educated me, disciplined me, and enabled me to succeed.

> As someone who grew up in relatively abject poverty, most of the positive
> things in my life have only come from within, due to my determination to
> succeed despite numerous setbacks.

There is nothing about my success in my adult life that has only come from
within. Even my determination isn't mine and mine alone. Everything about my
success is down to the opportunities that were afforded to me, to enable me to
have that determination and outlook. My parents, my teachers, and my peers
throughout my upbringing and adult life have all played a part. Nobody exists
in a vacuum.

I am immensely privileged to have had the amount of support I have had. I
expect the vast majority of commentators on this board have had similarly
privileged lives. The people stuck (either by 'choice' or by 'circumstance')
most likely have not.

At the risk of sounding like a <insert pejorative du jour here>, check your
privilege, appreciate it for what it is, and try not to look down on those
that didn't have the same opportunities that you did.

~~~
soulofmischief
_Nobody exists in a vacuum._

You're arguing a strawman. You are introducing absolutes into a conversation
which was purposefully framed as fluid. For example, I said _most_ of the
positive things. Your post is built upon the premise that I believe _all_
positive things in my life came only from within, however you said the word
_only_ , not me.

 _I am immensely privileged to have had the amount of support I have had._

That's great... almost comes off as bragging, but okay...

 _check your privilege, appreciate it for what it is, and try not to look down
on those that didn 't have the same opportunities that you did._

...Seriously? You are literally coming from a place of higher privilege and
looking down on me. You are projecting your own fortune onto me and
consequently expecting the same attitude. I have not had such fortune as you,
in fact most people haven't.

I don't need to _check my privilege_ , I am aware of everything I have and
wake up every day thankful I don't live in a place like Saudi Arabia. But we
aren't talking about Saudi Arabia. We are talking about America, and our
conversation about privilege is relative to America. And relative to America,
I have lived in abject poverty for most of my life.

~~~
oarsinsync
Apologies, I misread your statement, and my response was overly broad. This is
my mistake.

I may also have not been sufficiently clear in my messaging. I am talking from
the perspective of someone born and raised in a "first world" western
developed democracy similar in many ways to the USA (in this instance, the
UK).

> I am immensely privileged to have had the amount of support I have had.

The intent here is to drive the point that the support I have received is not
financial, and while coming from a financially wealthy family is hugely
advantageous to future financial success, there are many other variables in
play that are not financial.

When I talk about the support I have, I am recognising the time and effort
other people have given me.

Having good parents isn't a right. It's entirely luck of the draw. The same
largely applies to your teachers. It really shouldn't, but that's what the
situation looks like today. If you're in a good school district, your chances
of success are significantly better than if you're not.

I'm not talking about Saudi Arabia, I'm talking about being immensely grateful
that not only were my parents incredible, hard working people, who did the
best they could with what little they had; and that my teachers, overworked
and underpaid, never gave up on me, even when I was a total shit in school,
and persevered to ensure that I actually got a good education.

My relative financial poverty during my upbringing doesn't change any of that.
I still attribute my success to my upbringing. Not the (lack of) money, and
not myself.

~~~
bradlys
> My relative financial poverty during my upbringing doesn't change any of
> that. I still attribute my success to my upbringing. Not the (lack of)
> money, and not myself.

And some have neither money or the good upbringing. I was privileged enough to
have parents who were able to keep a full-time job (even if it was a minimum
wage one) most of my life. However, I would say mine were wildly poor on every
other front. In terms of their own education, ability to parent, and most
every other front beyond managing a positive bank account balance - they were
poor. (Didn't stop my mother from racking up over $10,000 in credit card debt
because she didn't know how they worked I guess)

I would align myself with soulofmischief in terms of the view on
determination. It was purely my determination more than anything that lead me
to getting to where I am now. (Beyond the basics like how I didn't grow in a
war torn country where clean water was a scarcity) I've hit pretty much every
setback a person in a first world country could give and persevered through
it. Sometimes it taking years of incredible pain for any kind of payoff. I
wouldn't attribute my success to my upbringing at all and neither would anyone
who knows me even a little. Not being in abject poverty probably had some
minor benefits for me but considering I had lived near that for the first 8-10
years of my life, I wouldn't consider it a huge amount of consequence. In fact
- I thought those years were probably more pleasant than the later years! The
only difference from going from near poverty to lower middle class was the age
of the house since my parents didn't have any addictions besides nicotine and
alcohol. (Alcoholism is ?probably? easier to deal with than an opioid
addiction - but I only know the experience of dealing with the former combined
with PTSD)

A little quote from a text I recently received: "You are exceptional to be
where you are given where you came from. That said, the working class chip on
your shoulder will hold you back from achieving what these people can achieve.
You gotta get rid of that chip. (It's that chip and the behavior it causes
that puts you on the edge of being fired. You aren't behaving the way these
one percenters are behaving and they want to punish you for it.)"

My point is this: Don't underestimate determination. Upbringing in all forms
is very important but a person with exceptional determination can overcome so
much. It doesn't mean that it's fair or that it's even worth it but it's
amazing how far someone can get with the refusal to give up. Something that
I'd think people here on HN would be all about since this is owned by a
startup incubator...

~~~
soulofmischief
I think one large motivator for me has been organizational theory:
[https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-
principle-...](https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-
the-office-according-to-the-office/)

I am either a bargainer, a clueless, or a sociopath (in the context of
organization). I will never be a bargainer, life is too short! I'm not
clueless and middle management is not for me. Only one path left.

I reached this decision through information like this. Perhaps Ms. Brown
needed something similar.

------
excalibur
Everybody seems to be latching on to the McDonald's part of her story, the
author included. But it's the hospital part I find mortifying. McDonald's is
pinching pennies left and right, it's their key to success. The hospital is
not. How much would you guess they're charging per day for the average patient
to stay there? I bet it's enough money to cover full-time employment and
benefits for their food service workers.

~~~
whack
I find it very interesting that most people assume it should be the employer's
responsibility to provide for the employee's wellbeing. Call me naive, but I
think it should be _society 's_ responsibility. What about Hedge Funds,
Technology companies, Law Firms and every other company that hires primarily
6-figure white collar employees. Should they be completely off the hook, just
because their business model only requires small numbers of white collar
workers? What about yuppies and millionaires who eat at nice restaurants, shop
at Whole Foods and cook our own meals, instead of buying from McDonalds.
Should we be immune from minimum wage increases just because we can afford to
pay for the finer things in life?

Minimum wage laws are fundamentally a tax on low-margin businesses and the
low-wage workers who frequent them. There's a better option available. The
Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC). It can ensure that workers take home
$15/hour, while also ensuring that the cost is borne by the entire society.
Not just a few specific industries and the specific demographics that rely on
them.

~~~
k-godwin
> Should we be completely immune from minimum wage increases just because we
> can afford to pay for the finer things in life?

You aren't immune.

Minimum wage laws impact the supply chain that feeds Whole Foods and nice
restaurants by increasing the cost of rural labor.

[https://www.indeed.com/salaries/farm-worker-
Salaries](https://www.indeed.com/salaries/farm-worker-Salaries)

A quick google will show you that farm workers are well below the $15/hour
goal most progressives are touting.

The argument that "society should carry the cost" is based on your opinion
that is in error. Society carries the cost of minimum wage increases because
we all have to eat. We all have to patronize low margin businesses to some
degree (even if it is indirect).

You can argue the EITC is a better "solution" than a minimum wage but if you
are trying to ensure $15/hour for people paid $10/hour, you are really talking
a negative income tax or UBI. At which point, you are probably better off
supporting those proposals instead of pushing the EITC.

Personally, I'm not a fan of subsidizing low margin businesses that from a
Capitalist perspective should probably be allowed to die if their workers
can't afford to live on what they pay.

~~~
whack
You're right that the "trickle down" effects of minimum wage laws will impact
everyone in society to some extent. But it seems like a fairly obvious
conclusion that people eating at McDonalds and shopping at Walmart, will be
impacted more than someone who only buys premium organic food and spends the
majority of his income on other luxuries.

> _you are really talking a negative income tax or UBI. At which point, you
> are probably better off supporting those proposals instead of pushing the
> EITC._

I do support UBI too but it seems like an extreme stretch to say that is
easier to sell than EITC. Especially when you consider that _EITC already
exists today_ as a federal law, and UBI does not.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earned_income_tax_credit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earned_income_tax_credit)

> _Personally, I 'm not a fan of subsidizing low margin businesses that from a
> Capitalist perspective should probably be allowed to die if their workers
> can't afford to live on what they pay._

Allowing McDonalds to hire workers at wages set by supply-and-demand, is the
very opposite of a subsidy. Killing off profitable low-margin businesses, will
by definition, lower the nation's GDP and tax base. Everyone, especially the
workers like the one featured in the article, will be far better off in a
world where profitable low-margin businesses aren't killed off by government
regulation. It's far more effective to tax McDonalds, as well as every other
profitable company, in order to fund the safety net that every citizen
deserves.

~~~
k-godwin
> I do support UBI too but it seems like an extreme stretch to say that is
> easier to sell than EITC. Especially when you consider that EITC already
> exists today as a federal law, and UBI does not.

To do what the person I'm replying to wants, it would be on the scale of
UBI/negative income tax. Otherwise, its not the equivalent to $15/hour when
they are being paid $10/hour.

------
outworlder
Other than the low salaries, there are two compounding issues here:

– Transportation. The US is very unfriendly to forms of transportation that
are not cars. There are a few exceptions, but these are exceptions. Good
public transport or even bike lanes would massively improve conditions for a
lot of people.

– Health care. Private companies are overcharging people and have made health
care(hospitals and medication) unreachable if you don't have your costs
subsidized by your employer.

– Education. Higher education would likely help this person. But how could she
afford it?

~~~
paulcole
> Good public transport or even bike lanes would massively improve conditions
> for a lot of people.

Bring up public transit or bicycling to people in nearly every non-urban part
of the United States and you'll get a million reasons why it won't work.

Car culture is so engrained in America that people have convinced themselves
there is no alternative. "I'd get sweaty", "Oh but I have to carry...",
"Walking to the stop would take...", "My kids...", "I don't want to sit next
to people..." . Even the rare people who actually have to drive refuse to
understand why they should be among the strongest proponents of alternative
and public transit.

~~~
smileysteve
A 80 year old man was remarking how Gen Z (and late millennials) aren't even
getting their licenses as teens anymore.

It's amazing to think that he was the first generation of the ubiquitous
automobile in the US and now can't comprehend how the generation before him
got around.

~~~
cnasc
> now can't comprehend how the generation before him got around.

The generation before him _didn’t_ get around, relatively speaking. Widespread
use of the automobile changed transportation patterns dramatically.

~~~
andrewem
The automobile also changed _land use_ patterns dramatically, and the truism
is that transportation is land use. See eg Cleveland, Ohio, which now has
roughly the same population as it did in I think 1940, but takes something
like 4 times the land. So people in 1900 didn't have to travel as much to
access a similar amount of opportunity, because things were closer together.

~~~
Gibbon1
I remember some pictures of Pittsburgh from the 1940's. With the steel mills
belching smoke. You can imagine why people fled to the Suburbs. Seems like
considering environmental regulations and the resulting clean up that that was
ultimately a mistake.

------
TurkishPoptart
This is why I get annoyed when people praise the successes of the economy (aka
artificially manipulated stock market) and our low unemployment rate. $9, $10,
$11 may be a _survivable_ wage in Durham, SC, but prices and costs of living
keep going up, and wages remain stagnant. In real wages this woman is probably
bringing home only $6-$7 an hour, effectively making _less_ than she would
have in, say, 2005 or 2010. I don't have any charts or tables to back this up,
but I sure pay a lot of attention to prices at the grocery store.

~~~
dls2016
> effectively making _less_ than she would have in, say, 2005 or 2010

I started working in 1998 at 16-years-old. I could make $9.50/hr washing
dishes or more as a bus boy on a busy night. Shit's whack.

Of course as a suburban kid I had reliable transportation. The constantly
rotating cast of dishwashers virtually never had this access.

~~~
tehwebguy
How? I made $6.25 bagging groceries in 2002

~~~
dls2016
Busy restaurant next to an amusement park (Hersheypark). They couldn't keep
anyone in the job. I didn't even want it because I was "bad at doing my taxes"
and could make more as a busser making $5.50/hour plus cash tips. But they
worked out a deal where I would bus tables and do just enough dishes to keep
things moving, then when it died down I'd clock in as a dishwasher at the
higher rate and close down.

Housing in town I guess was relatively expensive (not as much as now). And it
wasn't under the table, though I was responsible for claiming tips and they
didn't follow child labor laws. Built a studio with that money!

------
kevinqiu1
Even though it seems like she lives in an urban area (or urban enough to be
squeezed by rising home prices), the public transit is so poor that she spends
3-5x more time getting to work without a car than with one. Sometimes she
can't even get home. That's crazy, the car dependence of America means that
you need to pay for insurance + a car to even function in society. That is the
opposite of freedom

~~~
gwbas1c
Makes me think there is a business opportunity in urban areas?

~~~
DataGata
The economics of public transit essentially ask for government involvement:
operational costs are almost never paid for by fare prices, but instead are
essentially subsidized. If the bus/train lines are doing well, you often get
huge clusters of malls/retail/commercial buildings surrounding them, and they
of course reap the benefits without paying any extra costs.

However, there are things like the Dollar Vans in New York that do actually
fulfill the niche. They're also sometimes illegal.

------
x2f10
Her job is already going away; McDonald's around me have already replaced
cashiers with kiosks. Unionizing and requiring $15/hr + full benefits is only
going to accelerate McDonald's automation plans. Is the answer to fight for
$15/hr or is the answer to go back to school, apply to more jobs, and/or go
into a trade? Honest question.

~~~
larnmar
Honestly I think the solution is emigration.

There are places in the world where you can make a living without any
particular skill set, but I don’t think the US, or any other first-world
country, should really be among them.

The US needs immigration reform to bring more high-skilled people into the
country, but it also needs emigration reform to find new homes for people who
can’t necessarily make a reasonable living in a first-world country.

~~~
codedokode
Why do you think that people without skills will have better life in
developing countries? The salaries there are even lower, for example, in
Russia hourly rate in McDonalds is $2-4 depending on the city. The only kind
of housing the employee can afford is a room in a shared apartment or sharing
a room with a friend or living with parents for free.

~~~
michaelmrose
If your skill set is cashier you will almost certainly be denied moving even
to Russia

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Who knows, maybe they want to take advantage of cheap unskilled American
labor.

Seriously though, countries with labor shortages will allow unskilled people
to visit and work for awhile at least (eg Australia).

------
dekhn
I was a McDonald's cashier many years ago in high school. I could not figure
out any possible way to make it work (in the sense of being able to rent a
minimal apartment and feed myself). At the time I think my salary was $5/hour
and they wouldn't schedule more than 20 hours a week ($400/month). the
managers (all of whom had gone to "hamburger U" in Chicago) didn't seem to be
doing well, either- they worked 80 hours, often driving between multiple
stores all over the state every day.

The only person who seemed to be doing well was the person who bought the
store as a franchise. When I quit the manager said "I couldn't cut it as a
cashier".

~~~
npo9
It’s funny how people will try to make you feel guilty for walking away from a
bad deal.

------
justinsaccount
> It’s 8 p.m. and my scheduled shift is over, but they asked me to stay later

> The bus stops running at 10 p.m. on Sunday, but McDonald's asked me to stay
> until close at 1 a.m. They asked me to stay because they need my help.

Thats not a job, that's an abusive relationship.

~~~
itqwertz
Unfortunately, this seems to be the norm for a lot of low-level jobs in the
United States. You end up giving in because the job market for such jobs is
saturated and others will take it for lower wages/off-the-books.

When I was 18 (many years ago), I remember having a job that did the same "we
need you to stay later" BS. The buses stopped running at 8PM in the suburbs
and I had to regularly walk 5-6 miles back home. Cabs and Lyft/Uber aren't
much of an option when it would significantly eat into your paycheck. Most
people get tired of giving you rides because you cannot afford a car.

Using a bicycle was more dangerous than walking; some people would throw
things out their window at you or swerve/yell to scare you.

Factor in how managers "reward" certain employees with better shifts or punish
by cutting hours. I could see why many people switch to the dole or dealing.

~~~
pergadad
> Using a bicycle was more dangerous than walking; some people would throw
> things out their window at you or swerve/yell to scare you.

The USA really is a strange place.

~~~
madengr
I bicycled to work for several years. Mostly cars full of shit-head teenagers
that do that.

The really strange one was 5 AM on a 4 lane street, no other cars around, and
a single car comes up behind me and starts honking, about hitting my rear
tire.

------
Frondo
These questions like "why doesn't she simply x or y" make me sad. The person
in the article is poor, not dumb.

She likely can't move. It's expensive to move, no matter who you are, and
since she has two jobs, it seems like she's going to spend a lot of time on
the bus no matter what.

She definitely can't demand McDonald's pay for a taxi, or she can ask, be
turned down, and have her hours cut for next week. They'll cut her hours if
she just leaves at the end of her shift, and they ask her to stay.

She's already doing something that could ultimately have a positive material
impact on her life, organizing with her coworkers. It's just that the many
interlocking systems around her life all work against her; bad public transit,
bad pay for physically exhausting work, and having to fight so hard for
something as basic as a union at her workplace.

This is a situation that calls for compassion, understanding, and working
alongside her to change the systems that keep her in this situation, not
suggesting "why doesn't she".

~~~
codedokode
But if she and her boyfriend work full time even for $9.50/hr, they still earn
9.50 x 320 = $3040/month and that's not a little sum. With such income, do
they really have to live in some rural area with poor public transit and job
choice? Something doesn't add up here.

~~~
MultusSalus
That’s assuming they both get to work full time. The article mentions $215 as
a McDonalds paycheck. Assuming that’s typical, and they’re both working two
jobs, you get $1720/month.

~~~
badpun
She mentioned that it was less than she anticipated. Also, a month has 4.33
weeks on average, so even with the $215 weekly, they would be making $1863 per
month.

------
thorwasdfasdf
One thing that made her life so difficult is the difficulty of getting to and
from work.

It's pretty crazy that we spend nearly 15% of GDP on transportation costs. I
mean sure, we can all reduce the expenses by buying a 10 year old Prius and
get our travel costs down. but, a big part of the problem is that housing is
always so far away from work. 500 years ago, people lived within a mile or
less of their work places. now it's normal for people to live 20 miles or more
away. we need to start building our cities with residential and work places
closer by and hold employers accountable for where they create jobs. If you
want to regulate it, then by all means regulate as follows: no job can be
created unless there's an available residential place to live within 1000 feet
of it. this would not only save people's lives, but also significantly reduce
C02 pollution as transportation is a major source of c02.

~~~
npo9
A great short term solution would be to increase the investment in the local
bus system. Full buses have a much better carbon footprint than single
passenger cars.

The article highlights a real need for more bus stops and 24/hr bus service.

~~~
asdff
Enforced bus lanes would go a long way in getting people to use the bus, and
if more people use it then maybe headways can get to a reasonable number.

I ride the second busiest bus route in LA. Its serviced by a local and a rapid
route with less frequent stops, and only the double long accordion style
busses are run.

You would think the ridership and equipment would make for frequent and
reliable service. But sometimes the headways are 7 minutes, sometimes back to
back, sometimes over 25 minutes, sometimes skipping the stop. There is no
telling.

------
js2
In another America:

[https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/12/04/realestate/05...](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/12/04/realestate/05hunt-
polanyi.html)

(Yes, this an NYT Real Estate fluff piece, but god damn, sometimes I wonder
how this is the same country.)

~~~
iaabtpbtpnn
Perhaps it is the same country precisely _because_ of that disparity? Maybe
the rich's lavish lifestyles are only possible due to masses of hidden poor
people, who suffer primarily because such rich people exist?

------
nullbyte
Wow. This really makes me thankful for what I have.

------
amatecha
For people who have worked these kind of jobs: how much difference in your day
does it make when people are pleasant or friendly? I get takeout pretty often
and I am always super friendly and pay a tip of $2 when I'm picking up -- they
still had to do the work of packing up the food, right? And honestly, they
probably need the couple bucks more than me. I assume it is appreciated but I
always wonder how much of a difference it makes for the person. Whether it's
just a drop in the bucket or if they go home in better spirits or whatever.
I'm also always curious if it goes into a pool so the cooking staff get a cut
as well, cuz they deserve it as well.

~~~
igneo676
Back when I was a McManager, I appreciated anyone who treated my employees and
I like actual human beings. Whenever possible, I'd go above and beyond for
those people :)

At my peak I made $11/hour and employees started at ~$7.50 so a $2 tip was a
wonderful bump for the hour. Tips weren't generally shared since they never
officially happened. We weren't setup for them because of tax purposes. Other
fast food restaurants like Sonic rely on tips and are equipped to handle those
kind of situations.

Since then (2015) McDonald's raised their USA minimum to be $9 and likely more
since I last checked.

Source: I was a McDonald's employee for ~5 years, working my way up from an
entry level position to eventually Asst. Store Manager at a Midwestern
Franchise

~~~
amatecha
Interesting, yeah I pay by credit card so the $2 addition is definitely "on
the books", unfortunately. I think each restaurant or chain has a different
policy on how they disperse tips and I know some places do pool it (and I've
def heard horror stories where the manager or owner keeps a huge chunk of the
tips). But yeah I mean, everyone is valid and awesome and deserves to be
treated right. Even if they make a mistake I only mention it if it's massive
or repeated, and even then I don't want "a free meal", I just want to not have
a key ingredient in my dish missing (or whatever) hahaha ;)

------
scarface74
This by far not a popular opinion, but some jobs aren’t worth $15 an hour. We
shouldn’t force social policy on private corporations. Sure she needs more
than $9.15/hour to live as an adult and pay for insurance but a teenager
staying at home doesn’t.

I am strong believer in a social safety net but I think that should be the
role of government. She shouldn’t have to depend on private corporations for
insurance, that should be the taken care of by government like it is in every
other first world country.

We already have a program where the government (instead of corporate America)
recognizes that the monetary needs of an adult is different from that of a
teenager staying at home - the Earned Income Tax Credit. We as a country
should both make that more generous and easier to be distributed through out
the year. Historically, the EITC was supported by both Democratic and
Republican administrations.

It shouldn’t take her two hours to get to work, we need better public
transportation. Heck barring that I wouldn’t be opposed to subsidizing private
transportation solutions like working with Uber and Lyft if it’s cheaper long
term.

~~~
URSpider94
Here's a counter-argument: if people are taking jobs that don't cover their
cost of living, and the government is having to step in to subsidize them,
then that's effectively a subsidy from the government to the company's bottom
line.

In general, we Americans believe in the free market, but we also believe that
we need limits on what people can legally contract for. For example, we don't
let people sell organs. We don't let people sell themselves into slavery. We
don't let people put their pre-teen children to work. And we do indeed have a
minimum wage. Do you feel like we should abolish the minimum wage altogether,
or just that it shouldn't be $15/hour. If so, why?

~~~
scarface74
It’s not the role of every job to provide a livable income.

How many people on HN wouldn’t have a job at all if their company wasn’t
subsidized by VCs?

There was an article posted here a few months ago that the average 7/11 owner
makes $35K a year and that’s with them putting in 60+ hour weeks. Most small
business owners aren’t getting rich.

Actually, I wouldn’t be completely opposed to abolishing the minimum wage and
having a universal basic income.

~~~
taurath
> It’s not the role of every job to provide a livable income.

It’s the role of the economy for someone to get a livable income if that’s
what they’re seeking. If it’s not working then it needs a nudge.

~~~
scarface74
So should we force companies to pay a “livable income” for the teenager
staying at home? The couple with two small kids and the mom staying at home to
raise them? The single mom who has to raise three or four kids on her own? The
single person in the story who needs expensive medical care to stay alive?

~~~
taurath
Yes. Because people who need jobs to live shouldn’t have to suffer for those
people you mentioned. All those people you mentioned it’s a fucking optional
thing - don’t optimize for the optional.

~~~
scarface74
So it’s “optional” for the single mom who was married and whose husband
left/died? Is it “optional” in any circumstance for the kids?

~~~
taurath
She should get a living wage. The kids should take less hours so they have
more time to do things other than being a wage slave. Everyone who works
should get a living wage.

If everyone has a living wage, the businesses will do better because people
will have more money to spend. That’s the point of investment. Our economy is
built off of the consumer, who has been stagnating for decades. We could be
doing far better with a stronger middle class.

~~~
scarface74
So since the living wage is different for a single mom with two kids than a
single person living alone, should the minimum wage be different for one than
the other?

~~~
taurath
No, she should get different assistance for her situation, or if not, then
yes.

------
narrator
The people who do _ok_ with these jobs are people with tight nit families who
live 12 people to an apartment and share all expenses. For some reason, that
kind of living arrangement never works in America. Zoning can cause that to be
a problem, but there are other reasons it doesn't work.

I was reading a blog by an American who took a job at a hair cutter in China
and 12 people lived in 3 rooms in bunk beds in the back of the store and they
never fought. He commented that this living situation would never work in
America.

~~~
stevenwoo
That living situation describes migrant farm workers and day workers across
America, probably any industry that use illegal immigrants for most of their
labor.

------
jammygit
I worked as a cashier once and it wasn’t the same as it is for my friends who
still do. These days, they all have employment contracts, non-competes, and
self checkouts taking their jobs. Back in my day, you could just leave any
retail job like that and go across the street

~~~
owlninja
>employment contracts, non-competes

What retail stores have this in place for cashiers?

~~~
therealcamino
Until 2016, Jimmy John's was doing this to employees, until NY State made them
stop.

[https://www.cnbc.com/2016/06/22/jimmy-johns-drops-non-
compet...](https://www.cnbc.com/2016/06/22/jimmy-johns-drops-non-compete-
clauses-following-settlement.html)

------
rb808
In the old days middle class kids all had real service/manual jobs as
teenagers & college students. Its scary that now the new generation has to
read about what it is like.

~~~
EliRivers
Some of the middle class teenage kids I know would love to have service or
manual jobs - earn some cash around school and over the holidays - but those
jobs are now occupied by grown adults. It is scary, but not because middle
class teenagers miss out on them.

------
jdkee
Unions, unions, unions.

~~~
larrywright
There’s a compelling argument that unions, combined with the fight for $15
minimum wage, will do nothing but make the situation worse. Nobody is going to
pay $20 for a burger and fries. McDonald’s would either have to go almost
entirely automated or cease to exist as a company.

~~~
sterkekoffie
In 2017, McDonald's had 235,000 employees and paid its shareholders $7.7
billion. Compelling argument, all right.

~~~
larrywright
The restaurants are almost entirely owned by franchisees and run on fairly
tight margins. You can argue that the corporation makes too much money or
whatever, but they’re not the ones who will be screwed if I’m right.

~~~
rconti
Are you arguing the franchisees are hurting as well?

Or are you just arguing that the franchisees are also getting rich by paying
people as little as possible?

~~~
larrywright
I’m arguing that the restaurants aren’t especially profitable and their
margins are thin. It’s a bit like a rental property, in the sense that you
have to have more than a couple in order to make much money at it.

~~~
rconti
This has never been my understanding about the major ones, at least. The
licenses are incredibly expensive to buy, but they are quite profitable. But I
recognize we're both speaking totally vaguely and without sources, so I'm not
sure why I'm replying when I have so little to add myself :)

------
topologistics
>For the next four hours, I stand in one spot on a concrete floor working the
tray line. It’s like a constant assembly line, putting food on trays for
thousands of patients. I do milk, bread, butter, Ensure. Milk, bread, butter,
Ensure. A tray goes by every few seconds. Milk, bread, butter, Ensure. If I'm
slow, it backs up the line and it takes longer to finish. Standing in one
place so long makes my feet and my legs hurt. I know when I get up tomorrow, I
will wince when my feet touch the floor.

People should not have to do things like this. It is clearly a robot's job.
And if it weren't for the parasitic managerial class constantly collecting all
of the unclaimed resources for themselves, we would praise automation for
freeing people from such mundane painful existence.

Automation should free up humans time so that they can do things that humans
enjoy. The only reason that won't happen is that the people in charge of the
system are evil and greedy.

------
KingMachiavelli
> She says she plans to work for as long as possible, trying to provide for
> her baby. As part time employees, we don’t get health insurance or paid sick
> days.

And the cycle repeats. I know it's a cold, impersonal take, but when life
sucks, having a child is going to make it worse and most likely just lead to a
new generation of suffering.

As much as a $15 minimum wage _might_ help, even at $12 in Colorado,
McDonald's already has touchscreen machines you can order from instead of at
the counter - which might already not be manned all the time (it seems that
now they often have a single person taking orders at the front counter and the
drive through). So I'm skeptical if $15 minimum wage would work. It might work
for the hospital job, at least the margin's there are higher and they are less
able to automate the job away.

~~~
SolaceQuantum
_" I know it's a cold, impersonal take, but when life sucks, having a child is
going to make it worse and most likely just lead to a new generation of
suffering."_

She could've had the child when her economics were in a better place. She
could've been assaulted. She could've been denied the education to prevent the
pregnancy. There are a bajillion and one reasons why a child might exist and
she is responsible for it.

~~~
KingMachiavelli
> She could've had the child when her economics were in a better place. She
> could've been assaulted. She could've been denied the education to prevent
> the pregnancy

It's _possible_ but not _probable_ when you consider that 42.3% of births are
paid for via Medicaid [1].

[1]
[https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr68/nvsr68_13-508.pdf](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr68/nvsr68_13-508.pdf)

~~~
SolaceQuantum
Medicaid is also the largest insurance provider in the USA, so it makes sense
they have a lot of births. Doesn't explain much.

------
dm319
The lack of empathy and understanding in so many comments here makes me
slightly hopeless for mankind.

------
logfromblammo
I'm seeing a lot of comments in here made from the perspective of people who
have never had the experience of being caught on the poverty flypaper.

Preying upon the weak is an industry. The admonition to "work harder!" is
propaganda disseminated by those who passively benefit from the labor of
others. The fact is that wages have not risen along with productivity: it is
mostly just ownership dividends that rise.

A food-service worker should be able to enjoy the benefits that have accrued
to our civilization over many centuries of specialized labor, and still be a
functional person in civil society after a day's labor is done--even though
food-service work is one of our lowest-status specialties. Even the least of
us are still persons in their own right, and in a nation of temporarily
embarrassed millionaires, we are all far more likely to stumble into deeper
embarrassment than to recover those grandiose estates that were so
unfortunately lost when we erred in choosing our parents.

------
stakhanov
...so this is going to be unpopular and create some cognitive dissonance
around here, but I'm firmly convinced that an economic system that will allow
for the top earners to earn a lot (in international comparison) can only be
enabled if the bottom earners earn little (in international comparison).

In the United Arab Emirates, there are price-controls in place for certain
low-level services. Like the price that a hair salon can charge for a haircut
is price-controlled at a low price-level. This way they prevent a situation
where a hair stylist can start accumulating wealth beyond their socially
assigned (slave-like) status by becoming great at their craft, opening a
premium hair salon and charging premium prices and accumulating wealth in the
process. [Needless to say, craftsmanship is at a very low standard over there
as a result]. -- The U.S. system is basically that, only not as blatant. It
keeps down the underclass, because that's what's needed to enable the elites.

That makes it sound cruel and cynical. But the opposite is also cruel and
cynical.

Take Austria as a counter-example which has very high per-head GDP and is at
the same time one of the countries with the lowest Gini-coefficients in the
world (low income-disparity). Your yearly increment in wealth post wealth-
transfer like tax & government spending, social security, etc in Austria when
you're a McDonald's cashier is probably three times what it is in the U.S. But
for a highly qualified Software Engineer it's probably only a third of what it
would be if they worked an equivalent job in the U.S.

Imagine you earn a six-figure salary in the U.S. in a Software Engineering job
and you move to Austria: You might well find yourself in a situation where
your neighbor, who is a bricklayer, has a bigger house than you, drivers a
nicer car, works less hours, etc because they get paid in cash and cheat on
their taxes.

~~~
idiocratic
I'd much rather live in a country where disparity is not clear like in Austria
than the US. And I'm a software engineer but that doesn't change how I think
about social justice.

~~~
stakhanov
But government-mandated wealth-transfer is not "justice". "Justice" also
entails the ability to earn a return if you make an investment rather than
having the return taken away by the government.

Scenario A: Your dad is a bricklayer and teaches you how to do bricklaying.
You start taking jobs in the black economy, working at construction sites,
getting paid in cash and not paying taxes. You start doing that when you're 14
(which is the earliest age you can legally quit school). By the time you're 30
you will have built your own house and paid it off.

Scenario B: You're 28 years old when you graduate from university with a PhD
but you still cannot expect a level of income higher than the bricklayer's. In
Austria you wouldn't have student debts, as your university education would
have been paid for by the government, so that's good. But your daddy would
have had to pay for your living expenses until you were 28. So that's a lot of
money. Also, you've just spent 14 years not earning anything, so that's
opportunity cost. Maybe you worked very hard at university, working late,
instead of going out with your friends, doing summer internships instead of
going on holiday, etc. All of that is investment not only in financial terms,
but also in terms of "life energy" (if that's a word).

In Scenario B, as compared with A, there is no way you will ever be able to
earn a return on that investment or recoup it in financial terms. You will
never catch up with the level of wealth under Scenario A.

It doesn't work for the individual, and it doesn't work for the country as a
whole: This is an advanced economy, and it couldn't work if there weren't
doctors, lawyers, bankers, software engineers etc. But people are
disincentivized from wanting those jobs, because you can do far easier and
less stressful jobs that will get you to the same or even higher levels of
wealth.

------
fancyfry
I'm apply to be one, because its a fairly mindless simple job, not many
variables to handle so I wont have to think much at all. It will be a bit of
exercise instead of being stuck on my backside in front of a computer all the
time and I will get to interact with all sorts of people. I did a similar job
when I was younger, was quite good at it. Sure the money sucks, but I've also
experienced the other end of the scale, like writing a program which took a
week to build earning me £10k in two hours and saving 3 months of coding for a
major Charity. At least its paying money instead of spending money on games
like Candy Crush and in a way its no different to some of these types of games
so I'll still get my epinephrine, norepinephrine and dopamine buzz.

------
dennisgorelik
She is trying to shoot herself in the foot by supporting minimum wage limit
increase.

If minimum wage will go up to $15/hour -- her prospective employers will fire
her, because it would be better to either automate her service away or just
hire a more skillful worker.

------
archeantus
The higher I climb the corporate ladder, the higher my salary goes. This is
all well and good, but the expectations and stress climb with it too. I like
working and applying my brain to solving problems, but I sometimes pine for a
job that pays little and expects little. I can’t afford to make that change
now and there is a good chance I wouldn’t actually enjoy bagging groceries at
the store again, but it’s nice to dream about every now and then.

~~~
cameronbrown
There is no job where you're paid little and expected little of. You'll just
be paid little and you'll do some "low value" physical labour instead.

~~~
archeantus
Right now the leading candidate on my list is to be a school bus driver. The
responsibility is not trivial, but the work doesn’t seem too bad :)

~~~
progers7
You might enjoy this article about a professor who became one:
[https://stevesalaita.com/an-honest-living](https://stevesalaita.com/an-
honest-living). The job seems more complex and more rewarding than I had
imagined.

------
whatever1
I think it should be mandatory for all of the students to work even for a
short period of time in the services industry. They will gain perspective of
how shitty customers can be or how shitty bosses can be. When they eventually
get into their shoes, hopefully they will remember how it felt to be on the
other side of the cashier’s counter / boss’ desk.

------
rdevsrex
Wow, it makes me realize how easy my first job (pharmacy assistant) was in
comparison to food service.

But one thing I don’t understand is why so many people have to live on their
own before they have the skills and the job.

Some of my Indian friends don’t leave home until they get married lol.

As a parent now, I can’t imagine kicking my kid out at 18 and saying “go make
it on your own making minimum wage”.

------
agumonkey
Methink her job is secondary, she doesn't seem to be lazy. Systems who doesn't
help to avoid people getting under the bus are bad IMO. In another country,
she'd have just a bit of support to get it easier healthwise and transportwise
too.

------
partingshots
Universal basic income is far more comprehensive than raising the minimum
wage, which selectively benefits only the people that manage to get the
limited minimum wage jobs available.

------
alistairSH
Weird, in reader mode (Safari on MacOS), this is the text (other than the
title, nothing at all about McDonalds cashiers, other than a letter about
collecting receipts)...

How I Get By: A Week in the Life of a McDonald’s Cashier Cierra Brown is
trying to do all she can on her own, but it rarely feels like she’s doing
enough. By Maxwell Strachan Dec 5 2019, 11:11amShareTweetSnap

Got something on your mind? Email the Funbag. Your letters:

Eric:

My dear 80-something year old dad is normal in every respect. Except, he
collects McDonald's receipts. Yes, that McDonald's.

------
davidarcila
$9.50 an hour! I work as an interpreter from Colombia and I get paid $2.50

------
NicoJuicy
One of the best services a supermarket can have is: free-policy when you have
to wait > 2 people.

They do it with human cashier's and are insanely popular and low-cost.

No one truelly cares about self-service, it's just hype.

( Personal opinion)

~~~
ceejayoz
> No one truelly cares about self-service, it's just hype.

My grocery store recently instituted scan-as-you-go via a smartphone app, and
I love it. I bag as I go along, precisely the way I want everything bagged (no
crushed bread, no meat juice dripping on the candy) and basically walk out the
door.

~~~
Xavdidtheshadow
What grocery store is that, and what region?

~~~
ceejayoz
Wegmans, in upstate NY.

[https://www.wegmans.com/service/wegmans-
scan.html](https://www.wegmans.com/service/wegmans-scan.html)

------
sebringj
Before I had a programmer job when i was younger, i completely 100% empathize
with her in having those types of thankless jobs and constantly being tired. I
can't imagine being trapped in that going forward. I bootstrapped my situation
but I had a nice parents, a middle-class upbringing and a decent school to
start everything, and a knack for programming... but I know/met so many who do
not have this leg up in whatever they do in those experiences and have to
continue that scraping by. This is why I lean toward UBI. I know both people
who really want to succeed but are stuck from so many things or even people
that will never try. It is what it is and is only getting worse with
automation. I feel sorry for people that have not experienced these things
that insist of the work ethic being the answer and are blind to reality.

~~~
throwaway07Ju19
In the U.S. there is one presidential candidate championing a UBI of $1000/mo.
It would be paid for by a VAT tax.

Typically VAT tax is unpopular because it is regressive. But the UBI more than
compensates for the extra tax burden.

~~~
Miner49er
Yang's implementation is very regressive. You have the regressive VAT tax, but
then you also have the fact that you are cutting government benefits then
giving everyone $1000. So the poor just end up net poorer.

Example:

Now:

$12,000 a year + $12,000 in benefits = $24,000

$50,000 a year + $0 in benefits = $50,000

UBI:

$12,000 a year + $12,000 in UBI = $24,000

$50,000 a year + $12,000 in UBI = $62,000

The poorer person receiving benefits is actually poorer then before,
relatively.

Someone let me know if I'm missing something.

~~~
ameister14
You're missing a couple of things - first, it isn't zero sum. I don't care if
I'm poor __relatively __as long as I 'm not poor __absolutely. __

Second, the average benefit isn 't $1,000 a month and in almost all cases the
$1k per month is an increase on existing benefit numbers.

Third, since it doesn't come with strings, you don't have to worry about
losing your benefits when you get a job or a kid leaves the home, when you
relapse or when you get sick and can't manage the tangled web of government
red tape.

~~~
jfk13
> I don't care if I'm poor relatively as long as I'm not poor absolutely.

This might be true for you personally, but it is not true in general; whether
people are dissatisfied with their level of wealth/poverty has a great deal to
do with how it compares to others.

~~~
iamvfl
We're not talking about dissatisfaction here. We're talking about meeting
basic needs like food, housing, and health services. Wanting to be satisfied
of these things is absolutely true in general.

~~~
jfk13
> meeting basic needs like food

It's perfectly possible to get by with rice and lentils and a few vegetables,
and if that's the common lifestyle of everyone in the community/country, many
people are well satisfied with it. I've lived in such places.

But if you see the people around you enjoying an endless variety of steak and
sushi and lobster and so on, and you're working all hours yet still only able
to stretch to rice & lentils, your satisfaction may be less.

An illogical reaction? Maybe. A human one? I think so.

------
gazelle21
Wow reading some of these comments makes me sad. Some of you have no idea how
sad and hopeless situations can be. Before working as a dev I worked in fast
food for 5 year, full time and while going to college. I worked with some
people who were so trapped, I feel guilty at times.

------
gonational
I was born and raised just above dirt-poor, by American standards; e.g., lived
in a poor area (now a full-fledged ghetto), we reused milk to each have a bowl
of cereal with the same milk, we wore all hand-me-downs, any toys we had were
hand-me-downs from church friends, nobody in my extended family had ever
graduated high school, we never left the state once, we ate at restaurants a
few times ever, etc. Both of my parents’ parents were absolutely dirt-poor and
entirely uneducated. My maternal grandma couldn’t even read.

I worked my fucking ass off as a teenager, starting at 13, making minimum wage
for 2 years at various jobs; I slowly upgraded my job status to the point
where I was earning almost 3 dollars an hour more than minimum-wage by the
time I was 19, and I was proud of that at the time.

Needless to say, I didn’t go to college (nobody paid for that and I certainly
didn’t have the money).

I became motivated by learning how much profit some of the customers I helped
were making as entrepreneurs (always being nosy and asking questions, etc.),
and I started a half-ass business at 22 years old. I made a little bit of
money and learned some new skills burning the midnight oil till 3am for
months, which translated into a sort of graphic design job, now making more
money. I got acquainted with web design and web development just by reading
stuff on the Internet and reading books, seriously burning the midnight oil. I
worked my ass off nonstop and never stopped trying to learn more and more.
Fast-forward 6 years and many hundreds of hours studying, and I was earning
almost $200,000 a year as a software engineer.

Nobody gave me anything. Minimum-wage was much lower, inflation adjusted, when
I started out. I started out at a huge deficit with a poor family that was
uneducated and did not steer me in any particular direction. Yet, I made it.

The moral of my story is that all of the “adversity” that I experienced was
exactly what made me successful. Earning minimum-wage is for people who are
starting out for people who can’t make it past there. I certainly didn’t
deserve more than minimum wage money earned it; but I’ll tell you what, I did
deserve more when I got there, and I didn’t have to be thankful for it,
because I earned it. Nobody deserves anything by default, not even clean
water. Everybody has the freedom to make their own choices, including how to
create a safe and clean society. It’s not the job of some government overlords
to fix everything for us plebeians by passing laws. It’s our job. It’s our
world, until we give it away to hucksters masquerading as our saviors.

Listening to people on here whine like groveling animals about how they
deserve this and deserve that, because life is expensive, like that’s somebody
else’s job to fix for them... imagine trying to describe your woes to an Irish
immigrant, who just came home from a 12 hour day at the same factory where he
lost his finger a few months back; and you’re typing your message out to this
laborer on your $1400 phone.

Some people won’t make it; that’s OK. It sucks, but it’s how life has always
been for every species since the beginning of life on Earth.

~~~
baroffoos
This is either a troll comment or a mountain of survivors bias. For every
person who tries to "Pull themselves up by the bootstraps and start a
business" Most of them failed and likely ended up with less money than before.

You might as well advise people to buy lottery tickets because they give away
$1M for only $5

~~~
gonational
This is neither a troll nor survivor’s bias. My brother also makes great
money.

What does it have to do with lottery? I’m suggesting that hard work and
diligence makes you successful. Sure, I’m moderately intelligent (or I might
not have been able to learn web dev, etc.), but if others are not intelligent
enough to pull themselves up in the world, it’s not my job to pay them more
for not being intelligent. People that are less intelligent can do labor jobs
and get paid less. It’s not an insult. It’s common sense and it has always
been the case. Even the poorest of poor laborers in America have a better life
than the middle class in some countries. Anybody who’s got $1000 phone (read:
just about everyone) has no right to complain about how expensive it is to
afford an apartment and that somebody else should help them pay for that by
forcing them to pay higher wages... this nonsense is completely nuts.

~~~
baroffoos
>Anybody who’s got $1000 phone (read: just about everyone)

The ignorance of this alone makes the whole comment worthless.

~~~
gonational
$1,000 can feed an adult for 1 year.

$1,000 is much more than some sub-Saharan Africans and some Asians can afford
to eat in 1 year.

If you have enough money for a phone that costs as much as another man’s
year’s worth of food, your woes are irrelevant.

It sucks when people who don’t have the things they want, and live in areas
they don’t want to live. But in the grand scheme of things, these are all
conditions that we control. Unless you are incapable of providing for yourself
(truly handicapped), and then the only reason you don’t have, to a certain
degree, what you want, is that you don’t want it bad enough. If you have even
a moment of downtime (TV, gaming, relaxing), then you live in luxury compared
to those who relentlessly pursue their dreams.

------
hackerkskn
I started a Gofundme page: [https://www.gofundme.com/f/help-cierra-to-buy-a-
reliable-car...](https://www.gofundme.com/f/help-cierra-to-buy-a-reliable-
car?utm_source=customer&utm_medium=copy_link&utm_campaign=m_pd+share-sheet)

------
jumbopapa
I'm probably going to catch some flak, but I see some optimizations she can
make.

\- McDonald's offers college tuition reimbursement, when you're low income
this is one of the best ROI you have available to you.

\- McDonald's offers a 401k plan with up to 7% match. Even if you took the 10%
early withdrawal penalty this is money in your pocket.

I don't think the best use of her time is lobbying for a $15/hr minimum wage
that will more quickly move her to a $0/hr wage. Gain knowledge, skills, and
have a good work ethic and it is not that hard to get ahead in America.

~~~
davidcelis
> McDonald's offers a 401k plan with up to 7% match. Even if you took the 10%
> early withdrawal penalty this is money in your pocket.

This woman is literally living paycheck to paycheck, and your suggestion is
to... put money into a 401k? That simply isn't an option for people living in
poverty like this.

> Gain knowledge, skills, and have a good work ethic and it is not that hard
> to get ahead in America.

This is a really out-of-touch perspective. One's ability to gain knowledge and
skills is determined by the amount of free time they have when not working,
and when you're only earning $9.50/hr, you have to spend a _lot_ of your time
just earning enough to scrape by. It _is_ hard to get ahead in America when
you're poor. Lifting oneself out of poverty is not easy to do here (or
anywhere). If it were, we wouldn't have nearly 30% of our country's
inhabitants living in or very near to poverty levels.

~~~
jumbopapa
I'm saying she puts it in and takes it out as soon as she can. This gives her
more disposable income. The only issue I see is the time it takes her to make
the first distribution, but then she shouldn't have any issues with lagging
income if she budgets it properly.

It's not that out of touch. She doesn't have to work at McDonald's. I know
there's opportunities out there that pay better and are in LCOL areas, but
they have to be pursued.

I'm sorry, but I can't empathize when I read through an article and the only
thing she is doing to better her situation is use the power of government to
force someone to pay her more. I gave actionable advice that she herself has
the power to act on to improve her situation.

~~~
RcktMan77
The 401K administrators wouldn't allow this scheme of yours to be feasible.
When you open a 401K account and start contributing to it, you can't just keep
withdrawing from it at regular intervals like you suggest. At most you can
make a one time loan against a balance that exists in your account if you want
to keep using the account without closing it. You have to pay this loan amount
back with interest--you're paying yourself back with interest, but still when
you're in poverty paying anything back in excess of what you started out with
is just another hardship.

If you opt to take a loan against your 401K, then you will be required to re-
pay back the loaned amount through regular paycheck deductions until it is
paid back, and you aren't permitted to take another loan until this first loan
is repaid in full. Furthermore, a number of 401K plans that have employer
matching typically have some form vesting requirements before those funds can
be accessed; often a year or more.

Regardless, in this scheme withdrawing any amount (i.e. making a loan and not
repaying that loan, or withdrawing funds and closing the account) will end up
losing her money in the end given that McDonald's is only matching up to 7%
while withdrawing early from the account incurs a mandatory 10% early
withdrawal fee that 401K administrators are required to levy and report to the
IRS.

~~~
jumbopapa
You're right that YMMV, but it is an option with some providers. Even with the
penalty you get more income.

------
codedokode
> The bus stops running at 10 p.m. on Sunday, but McDonald's asked me to stay
> until close at 1 a.m. They asked me to stay because they need my help. I
> know it’s going to be rough to find a way home, but I need the money so I
> said yes.

Cannot she ask them to pay for a taxi then? Also I didn't understand why she
lives so far away from work.

~~~
Miner49er
Why would McDonald's pay for a taxi for her? I can't imagine them doing that.

She might not live that far from work. It might be a 20 minute drive, but with
the bus system in most towns in the US it's not crazy for that to take a
couple of hours on a bus with walking (the closest bus stop to her is a 30
minute walk it said). I'm sure if she could get a job closer that pays as well
she would've by now.

~~~
asdfasgasdgasdg
A bike would possibly be the ideal solution for someone in her shoes. Of
course, there's that lovely enhanced risk of dying you get for daring to brave
the streets on two wheels in the US. But if she gets back significant time
from changing it up, it might be worth it.

~~~
jhomedall
The average high in Durham is around 30C (86F) in the middle of summer
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durham,_North_Carolina#Climate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durham,_North_Carolina#Climate)).
Without a shower, she would be a stinking mess at work.

~~~
asdfasgasdgasdg
Ok, so cycling is not a 100% solution and won't work every single day. I did
not mean to present it as such.

Even if only 50% of days are suitable for cycling, if it saves her an hour a
day then, at her hourly rate, a decent bike will return it's investment in
less than half a year. And that's assuming her bus rides are free. She/a
person similarly situated would have to judge for themselves whether it is a
useful tool.

