
Water Revolution in Israel Overcomes Any Threat of Drought - davidf18
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/30/world/middleeast/water-revolution-in-israel-overcomes-any-threat-of-drought.html
======
OrwellianChild
What's interesting about this is the desalination costs... The Sorek plant
mentioned (largest of it's kind, 40 billion gallons/year) cost just $500
million to build. [1] They sell it back to Israel for $0.58/m^3 or
$0.0022/gallon profitably.

That's way cheaper than, for example, Glendale, California, whose residential
rates run anywhere between $0.0030 and $0.0052/gallon depending on consumption
levels. [2]

What will it take to bring this kind of technology to Southern California?

[1]
[http://www.technologyreview.com/featuredstory/534996/megasca...](http://www.technologyreview.com/featuredstory/534996/megascale-
desalination/)

[2] [http://www.glendaleca.gov/water-rates](http://www.glendaleca.gov/water-
rates)

~~~
jallmann
>What will it take to bring this kind of technology to Southern California?

San Diego county is already getting a desalination plant in Carlsbad, although
it's projected to cost more, for much less water: $530 million for ~18 billion
gallons a year. No idea why it's so expensive.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlsbad_desalination_plant](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlsbad_desalination_plant)

~~~
OrwellianChild
Great benchmark for California... Actually, it looks like the project is
closer to _$780 million_ for the plant (not sure why the Wikipedia summary is
off). [1] Central question is, can the Sorek method/scale be implemented in
SoCal to get better results? Can it be run on integrated solar or other
renewables?

[1] [http://carlsbaddesal.com/carlsbad-final-schedule-taking-
shap...](http://carlsbaddesal.com/carlsbad-final-schedule-taking-shape)

------
frandroid
The Israeli 'watergate' scandal: The facts about Palestinian water
[http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-
east/1.574554](http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/1.574554)

Not enough water in the West Bank? (Press the + in the top-right corner)
[http://visualizingpalestine.org/visuals/west-bank-
water?v=la...](http://visualizingpalestine.org/visuals/west-bank-
water?v=large)

Water supply and sanitation in the Palestinian territories
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_in_...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_in_the_Palestinian_territories)

~~~
davidf18
Sadly, the Palestinians elected for their government, Hamas, which has as part
of its charter the destruction of Israel when they could have elected the
Palestinian Authority to lead them which does recognize Israel. Hamas has
spent much of its money on missiles that it shoots at Israeli civilian
population centers. Consider, would the US be obligated to give water to
Mexico or Canada if these countries had as part of their charter the
destruction of the US and shot missiles at US civilian population centers?

I can assure you, that the Palestinian standard of living, esp. in Gaza, will
markedly improve once they elect a government which signs a peace agreement
with Israel.

~~~
stefantalpalaru
So the Israeli apartheid and ethnic cleansing is actually the Palestinians
fault? For electing the wrong political party? How long until Israel
implements the final solution for this evil minority?

~~~
ars
> Israeli apartheid

Let's assume for the sake of argument that there is apartheid (it's clear
there isn't, but let's assume it anyway). They are in Gaza! Gaza is not
Israel, the entire concept of apartheid doesn't even make any sense in that
concept.

> ethnic cleansing

Oh definitely. Most effective ethnic cleansing in history.

> implements the final solution for this evil minority?

Your antisemitism is showing.

You do know your github and other public data is linked from your profile?
Most people at least try to be anonymous before being antisemitic.

~~~
stefantalpalaru
> the entire concept of apartheid doesn't even make any sense in that concept

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analog...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analogy)

> Your antisemitism is showing.

In my criticism of Israel?

> You do know your github and other public data is linked from your profile?

Fear is the mind-killer.

~~~
ars
You try to criticize Israel and you don't actually know anything about the
area, do you?

Gaza. Does the word mean nothing to you? Apartheid is about two types of
citizens, Gaza is not in Israel, the concept make no sense there at all. (And
did you actually read the article you linked? I suspect you didn't.)

> In my criticism of Israel?

You didn't criticize Israel, you suggested they solve their problems by
massacring millions of people.

> Fear is the mind-killer.

And mindlessly hating other people is the civilization killer.

~~~
yongjik
> Apartheid is about two types of citizens, Gaza is not in Israel, the concept
> make no sense there at all.

Ah, the Guantanamo defense. I know that maneuver.

------
darklajid
So, let's state my affiliation first: I lived in Tel Aviv for a year, I still
work for a company that was founded in Israel. I have friends there and would
love to go back.

Now .. water? That's insane. You'll see lots of places that offer a 'lawn'.
Which doesn't work without a lot of water. People seem to be rather wasteful.
We (my wife and me) had discussions with Israelis about how to do the dishes
(the 'German way', if that is really special, is filling your sink with water
and washing your dishes. The 'Israeli way' \- anecdotally, among friends - was
running tap water) and about reusing glass bottles ("What? You have people
that prefer to buy Coke in a glass bottle, because that bottle will be washed
and reused? Isn't that totally baaah?").

We tried to discuss that topic a couple of times, but nobody local (in our
circles) cared One. Little. Bit.

(Ironically we were in a hotel before we found our final apartment for our
time in Israel and the management stole the bathtub plug from each and every
room, citing water shortage as a reason. That was before we had all the
conversations that are summarized above)

I'm glad that desalination works and helps. But the attitude might need
adjustment as well, based on my non-scientific observations.

~~~
ars
Keep in mind that because they recycle so much wastewater, "wasting" water by
running the tap is not as bad as it sounds.

Washing and reusing glass bottles is really stupid in a desert. You have
unlimited amounts of sand to make glass, but water is less plentiful. Plus
kosher issues make washing bottles problematic (doable, but more complicated).

~~~
darklajid
Hmm.

Now, water in Europe is recycled as well. Maybe I'm missing the context, but
.. so far I'm unconvinced. And even IFF that would be true, not using a
running tap would save more water.

Reusing bottles is stupid? Really? You want to create those from scratch,
because .. you have sand? What happens to the old/used bottles? I cannot even
begin to understand this point, tbh.

Kosher: I'm no expert on kosher regulations, but a bottle of coke (in a
specific form) will stay a bottle of coke. Washing it, refilling it should
(??) be irrelevant for people that want kosher stuff. If you consider Coke
kosher (which - ignoring Coke - is arguably something that you have to decide
for yourself. People often seemed to eat seafood but reject pork for example)
then this bottle is just going to be cleaned and .. refilled with the same
stuff. I don't see how kosher comes into play here?

~~~
selimthegrim
I think the issue is more you can't guarantee someone didn't do something with
said rewashed bottles that doesn't violate kashrut.

~~~
darklajid
Okay - I don't want to say "that's insane". If you have a religious reason for
not recycling glass bottles, there's no way to argue about that. None.

But that didn't apply in my social circles. My selection of citizens (say ..
more than one, less than two dozen people) were not observant. Some were gay.
Some recently immigrated and had more or less about as much idea about Jewish
laws as I did.

So while you might present a point for refusing recycling (?), people around
me were really mostly complaining about the 'Ewww' part of using a bottle that
someone else used. Maybe downed, and used as an ashtray afterwards. Etc. etc..

~~~
ars
> were really mostly complaining about the 'Ewww' part of using a bottle that
> someone else used.

Do they not eat at a restaurant that washes dishes?

I doubt they actually thought about what they were saying.

~~~
darklajid
We had that discussion (when talking about doing the dishes) and they were at
least convinced that restaurants do their dishes the same way - open the tap,
rinse the dishes...

There was no way to proceed. Obviously these guys did it that way at home.
Stating that this is wasteful (and even worse for a restaurant!) didn't help.
The 'sink full of water in which you dip all the dishes of the night and
whatever you need to clean' was considered 'ewww'.

I'm still baffled today (we returned about 2.5 years ago). I still have
exchanges about water usage (i.e. "It is our right to use as much water as we
want to grow our garden") with my coworkers to this day.

~~~
ars
> and they were at least convinced that restaurants do their dishes the same
> way - open the tap, rinse the dishes...

They are both right and wrong. Restaurants use the tap to wash food off of
plates (no soap). Then they sanitize (not wash) the dishes with bleach, and
minimal water.

> I'm still baffled ... with my coworkers to this day.

I hope you do not consider them representative of Israel. Israel has lots of
people, with lots of opinions and ways of doing things. I get that they were
who you knew there, but I hope you'll categorize them as "that's how they do
it", not "that's how Israel does it".

------
ars
The impact of this can not be overstated. Wars over water in the Middle East
are more common there than anywhere else.

By removing this casus belli peace with Israel is much more likely.

Look at Jordan for example: Once they had a good treaty for water everything
else fell into place.

~~~
mschuster91
Peace with Israel?! Never ever. Too much money for Big Weapons relies on
Israel pretending to be threatened by its surrounding countries.

No country leader right in his mind, not even Kim Yong (all NK is after is
more Western aid money and a bit of luxury goods for the elite, and potential
nukes are a perfect way of extorting), would _ever_ sign off a military attack
against Israel, given its nuclear abilities and the support of NATO. Still,
Israeli government successfully manipulates the entire world to believe
they're threatened.

The only threat for Israel is its corrupt, right-wing-extremist government.
Israel government complains all the time about raising anti-semitic behaviour
worldwide yet completely ignores that it is the fault of Israeli government.

~~~
TheGuyWhoCodes
"Pretending"... Just because you live in a place where the existence of your
country isn't threatened, doesn't make it not true for other places. Israel is
in a place where you have 10s of thousands of rockets aimed at your population
centers, UN member countries publicly threaten to wipe you off the map while
creating a nuclear program. History of your surrounding countries trying to
actually wipe you off the map, many many times...

The threat is real.

~~~
mschuster91
I don't believe that Iran would do as much as send a dummy conventional rocket
towards Israel. Israel and the US would likely send enough nukes flying
towards Teheran to vaporize the country for centuries before the Iranian
missile crosses the border, and Iran leadership knows that.

It's just exaggerated v-penis comparisons, imho.

~~~
TheGuyWhoCodes
Because they can't just give a dirty bomb and smuggle into into Israel?

You can say but.. they will hurt the Muslim population.. but hmmmm what did
Hezbollah did when they shot thousand of missiles at the norther part of
Israel and hit many Arab villages or Hamas shooting and hitting Bedouin
settlements in the south of Israel.. It's fine to kill "your own" as long as
you take the infidels with them..

That same "I don't believe that they will do that" was said about Nazi
Germany.. fool me once shame on me... fool me twice... oh nvm I'm dead...

The US promised to protect Israel in the first golf war, they shoot missiles
that hit Tel-Aviv. Israel wanted to respond but the US asked Israel to hold
back and they did.

US will not do Israels job for them.

~~~
dragonwriter
> You can say but.. they will hurt the Muslim population..

Well, I'd actually say that Iran would have no benefit from that.

Really, the main threat to Israel from Iran -- or any of Israel's other
regional foes -- getting nukes is that Israel's own nuclear arsenal would no
longer provide it as free a hand in its own policies towards it neighbors as
it has heretofore had, since it wouldn't be holding an unequaled trump in any
runaway escalation provoked by Israel's policy choices.

~~~
bsaul
I don't even understand what types of escalation you're talking about. Israel
has peace aggreements with all its neighbourhood countries, and Israel being a
nuclear power hasn't changed a thing for terrorist organisation which have
attacked israel for the last 30 years.

All the trouble in the region comes from non-national entities, or state-
sponsored terrorist organisations ( with daesh being a weird hybrid of the
two). Letting iran have the nuclear bomb will only push conflicts toward even
more terrorism, especially between shiite and sunnites.

~~~
dragonwriter
Israel has peace agreements with Jordan and Egypt, but not its other
neighbors, and fairly regularly engage in cross-border military operations,
recently particularly in Syria.

------
guelo
Imagine if the US used the $3 billion/year it sends Israel to instead build
desalinization plants in the south west.

~~~
killface
I like how you're downvoted for pointing out something very obvious, but not
100% pro-israel.

~~~
ars
He edited it. His original message was blatantly antisemetic.

~~~
guelo
It was anti-Israel which is not the same thing as antisemetic, no matter how
much zionists keep saying it is.

------
ChuckMcM
Basically pointing out, once again, that it really is a question of price, not
of availability. Cheaper energy would make this more doable. And water has
been proposed as a transfer medium for value from photovoltaic arrays (they
desalinate water by cracking it into hydrogen and oxygen, which then gets
recombined to produce local energy and exportable potable water. Only makes
sense if you are willing to pay more for the water.

That said, the ability of graphene to desalinate water is something I think
should get more investigation than it does. See
([http://cleantechnica.com/2015/04/03/methane-rescue-new-
energ...](http://cleantechnica.com/2015/04/03/methane-rescue-new-energy-
efficient-graphene-desalination-membrane-99/)) for example.

------
rokhayakebe
From the article:

 _Mr. Shezaf, who also grows olives, prefers older agricultural methods and
says desalination is essentially a privatization of Israel 's water supply
that benefits a few tycoons. _

------
pbreit
I have trouble getting behind desalination for California. Surely we have not
exhausted all our options in collection and storage?

~~~
killface
You exhausted those a decade ago. Now other states are shipping water to Cali,
and those states are starting to have their own issues.

~~~
PhantomGremlin
Reasonable options haven't been exhausted until California stops producing
crops like rice.[1]

    
    
       Our ideal climate, ample water supply and
       innovative farming techniques result in some
       of the highest rice yields in the world,
       while at the same time providing rice of the
       highest quality.
    

That was written a few years ago. Growing rice in a desert is hardly an "ideal
climate", and the recent drought has certainly changed the perception of an
"ample water supply".

Same thing with other water intensive crops like almonds. TV was recently
reiterating the trope that a single almond takes 1 gallon of water. That seems
way high, but I haven't searched further.

[1]
[http://web.archive.org/web/20060210141916/http://calrice.org...](http://web.archive.org/web/20060210141916/http://calrice.org/e7b_cas_rice_growing_region.htm)

------
dharma1
What's the state of the art of water desalination? I remember some interesting
research on graphene filters a year or two back. Is this doable on a micro
level for off grid living on coastlines?

------
oldmanjay
I'd love to have a conversation with the author of the piece and ask them what
sort of mental conception of the universe leads to calling desalinated water
"artificially produced."

~~~
civilian
"artificially produced water" just seems like a shortening of "artificially
produced freshwater", and that seems like a correct statement. It's just
semantics, man.

------
DanBC
Flagged because of the fucking awful comments in this thread.

And those comments were very predictable.

