
Does this look familiar to anyone? - lurkage
http://www.founderscoop.com/apply.php
======
brett
I would argue that if you're going to go the trouble of including a "Shout-
outs" page, you should mention the company who's application you stole
verbatim:

<http://www.founderscoop.com/shout-outs.php>

~~~
chengmi
Brad Feld, whose blog appears on that page, also has a hand in TechStars
(their application was copied from YC too).

------
brfox
Here's their apology:

[http://crashdev.blogspot.com/2008/04/sincere-apologies-to-
pa...](http://crashdev.blogspot.com/2008/04/sincere-apologies-to-paul-graham-
and-y.html)

------
aneesh
Actually, I don't think YC should mind. If they're not smart enough, or
dedicated enough to think of a few due diligence questions on their own, would
a really good startup want them on board as investors?

------
lux
Another thing is trust -- would you trust a knock-off to have that much
experience and insight, when you can verify via PG's essays the insight
they'll bring to the table? Hard sell if you ask me.

~~~
davidw
Supposing you 1) dont' want to live in the Bay Area, or 2) weren't accepted to
YC, or have some other issue with YC, having some other options isn't bad,
even if they're not as good as the original.

I don't get the need people seem to have to put these YC clones down. Yes,
copying the application is lame (we'll see if the guy responds), but having
more options is a _good thing_. If your idea (YC) is any good, people will try
and replicate it, and that's what we're seeing here. The early-stage-seed
whatever area is not some kind of network-effect amped winner-takes-all market
where PG needs to grow things at an insane pace to grab market share. Far from
it, he does well by his funded companies to dedicate his time to them, and not
worry if people copy his idea.

~~~
lux
I'm not putting the idea itself down at all. In my other comment I saw the
likelihood of these types of investment companies increasing since YC proved
the concept viable. This one here was blatant plagiarism though, which make it
look like they didn't put the time into starting it properly, which means
they're not likely to put due diligence into the companies they investing in.
Trust is a big factor in accepting someone's money in exchange for part of
your creation, and that doesn't instill it. Looks like they did apologize now
though (haven't read it yet).

Local is a definite plus, having to move to Boston or Cali can be a deal-
breaker for some I'm sure. I'm waiting to hear when a Canadian equivalent pops
up myself ;)

They also had one other interesting idea I haven't seen before, which is that
they ask companies to put up 5% to a pool that's shared among all the startups
from that funding round. They figure that will encourage more collaboration
and help, since everyone wins a little when anyone in the group wins. That was
in their FAQ. I wonder how that will turn out for people in practice.

------
brfox
hey guys, chill out. Is the application the same as YC? (It is not currently
posted on YC, so I don't know).

Other than the unattributed copying of the YC application... This seems like a
totally different deal. He's not just giving a tiny bit of money to fresh
college grads and making you move to San Jose for 3 months, it looks like it
is going to be an actual co-op where each group accepted gets part of the pie
from everyone else, and its not only limited to 10k. I live in Seattle and
have 2 little kids, so I can't exactly do the YC thing, so I'm actually kind
of fired up about this idea. I've read about the two founders of this group so
it seems legit.

~~~
vegashacker
Yeah, it's basically verbatim plagiarism. Check out, for example,
[http://web.archive.org/web/20060825161615/ycombinator.com/w7...](http://web.archive.org/web/20060825161615/ycombinator.com/w7app.txt)

~~~
brfox
Here's their apology:

[http://crashdev.blogspot.com/2008/04/sincere-apologies-to-
pa...](http://crashdev.blogspot.com/2008/04/sincere-apologies-to-paul-graham-
and-y.html)

------
aristus
Calm down. This is precisely how industries standardize. No one thought it was
"sickening" when search engines pages started to imitate each other's blue
title + grey descr + green url design. It was just an obviously good idea.

~~~
iamwil
My first reaction was also, "hey plagiarism". But then again, on second
thought, it'd be nice to have one application form to fill out, and then you
just send them to different programs.

Before the days of standardized applications forms for colleges, it was a pain
in the ass to fill out the same types of questions. I think it's rather lazy
of them. However, since they're all going for startups, it's rather likely
they'd ask a set of basic questions. It might do to have some sort of
standarized basic set of questions, and then tack on one or two specific
questions for that particular program.

~~~
randallsquared
I think there's a lot to be said for standardization, as you say. Founders who
are just getting started have little enough time as it is, without having to
come up with just slightly different answers to just slightly different
questions. If that's their reasoning, they probably should have mentioned it,
though.

------
chaostheory
what I don't understand is that why these people don't even try just changing
around the wording at least just by a little bit... are they that uncreative
and lazy? or at least (as brett mentions) give credit where it's due

~~~
rokhayakebe
becasue this is exactly what they intended to do. Have the entire YC community
talk about it and cr8 some interest about their program. It seems to work.

~~~
gruseom
I once had a philosophy professor who liked being provocative. He was a sort
of evangelical atheist. He gave a talk entitled, "Is Belief In God Immoral Or
Merely Irrational?"

That (unethical or merely incompetent?) is the sort of interesting debate
they've created about themselves.

------
lux
These all seem so blatant at this point, but if the trend is moving towards
early-stage/micro-investments like this, then most likely we'll be seeing lots
more where this came from.

But when YC has all the cred which serves to give a nice profile boost to YC-
funded startups, what can these others offer that amounts to the same thing?
There's the community, experience and hookups with further funding
opportunities, but these knock-offs just seem like they're lacking in
comparison to the full value proposition YC offers. I wonder how they can
compensate for that...

~~~
Raphael
Local is a plus.

------
wheels
Again, I don't understand the super-reactionary responses here every time that
there's something based on YC. By the YC founders own assessments they can't
accommodate all of the good ideas that they're receiving.

And what of this, "Well, they're going to suck..." Do you think YC was perfect
right off of the bat? Really? Sure, the copy-cats will be rough at first, then
they'll, like most ventures, find ways to differentiate themselves and do
their thing or die.

Or is the big objection that they copy-and-pasted the form? Other than very
minor copyright infringement, which I'm sure they'd rectify if asked, it's
obvious that they just went live. I can think of dumber ideas than copying
your role-model as a place-holder until you have time to rewrite the form.

~~~
wright
It's not about copying the idea.

It's about making yourself look like a total asshat by copying someone else's
writing verbatim and passing it off as your own.

> _which I'm sure they'd rectify if asked,_

"If you have to ask..."

> _then they'll, like most ventures, find ways to differentiate themselves and
> do their thing or die._

There's a YC copycat in India that differentiates itself by posting armed
guards to keep you in your office until midnight. And not let you sleep.
Seriously.

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=158049>

~~~
wheels
> It's about making yourself look like a total asshat by copying someone
> else's writing verbatim and passing it off as your own.

There's a famous line by Igor Stravinsky. "Good composers borrow. Great
composers steal."

If you're working on something, and you see someone else that's got part of it
righ, by all means copy them!

I don't mean plagiarize them, but emulate what they're doing and figure out
the parts that you're good at. If you read through what this co-op is about
there's some interesting stuff there. They're trying to get people in Seattle
for a year, are offering more funding and trying to build integration between
the companies they're investing in. This is a good thing. Ask them to reword
their questions if you must, but cheer these people on! Comparing this the
Indian proposal from a little while back is just silly.

~~~
mwerty
>"Good composers borrow. Great composers steal."

Interestingly, he probably stole that quote from T.S Eliot: "Immature poets
imitate; mature poets steal"

~~~
wright
It was Picasso and artists.

------
gruseom
The hackers they'd like to attract all know about YC. Most probably knew about
it long before they did. A good many probably have the YC application
memorized. To make a verbatim knock-off and pretend you didn't is just so...
inept. Certainly ineptitude is among the leading qualities I look for in an
investor, how about you?

To anyone who knows the first thing about hackers, it's obvious how to do
this: give full credit to YC, praise YC to the skies, point out that not
everyone is suited to YC and argue that there's room for more than one.
Differentiate yourself by being Seattle-focused or whatever.

------
reitzensteinm
Does anyone else find this sickening? I'd be unable to plagarise in a
professional setting even if I knew 100% that I wouldn't get caught. I'd feel
way too slimy afterwards to even consider it. What ever happened to taking
pride in your work?

Add in to that the absolute certainty of getting caught on the internet (hell,
you can automate the process), I'm just amazed that people still do it. I just
don't understand their thinking at all.

------
antoineg
Chris has responded to this issue on his blog:
[http://crashdev.blogspot.com/2008/04/sincere-apologies-to-
pa...](http://crashdev.blogspot.com/2008/04/sincere-apologies-to-paul-graham-
and-y.html). Those of you throwing around uninformed, flaming commentary would
benefit from a quick read followed by a few deep breaths.

~~~
webwright
He uses the phrase "modeled after", which is pretty light. They lifted most
questions verbatim, removed the references to boston and News.YC (usernames,
etc), and shuffled order on a question or two.

I'm a little iffy on whether I feel this is terribly unethical-- an
application is not really a creative work. I do think it shows a lack of
creativity! I can think of 2 or 3 questions that I'd add/adjust if I was
spinning up an early stage outfit.

~~~
antoineg
I agree it was a lapse in judgement - both the lifting and the lack of
attribution. However, in the grand scheme of things it's not that huge a deal,
and the important thing for me is that he is correcting the problem right away
as soon as possible after being informed of the criticism.

------
okeumeni
We have built a search of their sites and blogs, whatever you want to know
about Founder's co-op, just search for it here:
[http://www.intelliverb.com/Search/?ul=en-
us&six=src63343...](http://www.intelliverb.com/Search/?ul=en-
us&six=src633439433255440000f)

------
edw519
Look at how much you can learn about these people from this little bit of
data:

1\. They are creatively challenged.

2\. They are professionally challenged.

3\. They are ethically challenged.

Suppose you get involved with them. What do you imagine would happen as soon
as a difficult situation came up?

Personally, this tells me just enough to run, not walk, the other way.

~~~
davidw
Well, if by "learn", you mean "extrapolate", "surmise", "conjecture" or
"speculate". I don't think you can make such sweeping statements without
knowing more.

~~~
edw519
They copied someone else's intellectual property without giving credit.

What data could anyone possibly add that would change my thinking?

~~~
edw519
I sit here with egg on my face as I reply to myself. davidw, you were
absolutely right and I never saw it.

When I wrote, "What data could anyone possibly add that would change my
thinking?" I never expected an answer. I just read the Crash Dev apology, and
that's the data.

My apologies. Now I understand the difference between "learn" and "infer".

------
okeumeni
YC is a great idea, Founder's co-op is the proof. Honesty dictates that they
mention YC as their source of idea. This is another opportunity for startups
to get seed and backing. Coaching may not be as YCs, but hey why not try,
apply!!!!

------
smoody
I know this is off-topic, but isn't asking for the applicants' ages illegal,
as it can be used as a basis for discrimination? -- in the same way that
asking if the applicants have children would probably be illegal.

~~~
dcurtis
This isn't a housing application-- discrimination is completely legal.

In fact, the application is designed to discriminate against people who would
be bad founders.

~~~
brlewis
More relevant, this isn't a job application. Employers do have to avoid
discrimination.

------
paulgb
> 12\. Why would your project be hard for someone else to duplicate?

Heh

------
wright
I find it dubious not only for the massive plagiarism (even the word limit!)
but in that they seem to lack the l33t skills needed to make an HTML form
submission page.

I think having YC in your corner is a boost; these guys look like they'd HURT
your chances. Why would you want people who are unoriginal and unscrupulous
dragging you down?

~~~
trevelyan
saves you from writing two application forms?

~~~
rms
I think that was the idea Techstars had. Since they got away with it outside
of this community, I can see why other new microseed funds want to keep using
the same application.

