
A foundation course in reading German - romes
https://courses.dcs.wisc.edu/wp/readinggerman/
======
tom_mellior
Maybe I'm being too pedantic, but I found some errors on the first few pages
and am wondering about the accuracy of the rest.

[https://courses.dcs.wisc.edu/wp/readinggerman/introduction/](https://courses.dcs.wisc.edu/wp/readinggerman/introduction/):
"Einfluß" and "Zusammenfluß" have officially been spelled "Einfluss" and
"Zusammenfluss" since the reform of 1996, i.e., since before much of this
book's audience was born. "beeinflüssen" should be "beeinflussen".

[https://courses.dcs.wisc.edu/wp/readinggerman/noun-gender-
no...](https://courses.dcs.wisc.edu/wp/readinggerman/noun-gender-nominative-
case/): Not an error of German per se, but I find "memorizing the gender of
every noun is not particularly important" and "It is recommended that, as you
learn the nouns you choose to memorize, you learn each noun with its definite
article" contradictory and confusing.

On the same page: "All nouns that end in –ei, –heit, –ie, –in, –keit, –schaft,
–tät, –ung are feminine." Counterexamples I came up with in a minute or so:
_der_ Brei, _das_ Allerlei, _das_ Benzin. The reason is that in these cases
-ei and -in are not suffixes in the same sense as they are in the common case
illustrated by the authors' examples, but a beginner would not be able to
tell.

This feels like it could be a better resource with more attention to small
details.

~~~
vanusa
_Maybe I 'm being too pedantic,_

Nichts der Art.

 _" Einfluß" and "Zusammenfluß" have officially been spelled "Einfluss" and
"Zusammenfluss" since the reform of 1996,_

Which many adults I know continue to thumb their noses at, to this day (in
personal communication, at least). In any case, arguably one needs to be aware
of the pre-RSR spelling conventions to have a solid grip on the language as a
whole. So I would prefer a reference that made us aware of _both_ variants,
actually.

As to feminine nouns -- good call. It's a difficult task to put together
reference materials that are both comprehensive (and approachable) _and_
obsessively accurate.

~~~
ofrzeta
As someone who worked as a professional writer for many years I never
understood why that reform was so inconsistent. After all it was supposed to
simplify spelling. So why not go all the way and eradicate the 'ß' like they
did in Switzerland. And this is just one of many examples.

~~~
LukaD
How is it inconsistent? S, ss and ß all have distinct pronunciations.

~~~
bhaak
In Standard German ss and ß don't have distinct pronunciations.

That was one of the goals of the spelling reform to make the use of ß more
consistent and use simpler rules for it. Exactly because there is no
difference in pronounciation between ss and ß.

~~~
LukaD
You’re right, they are pronounced the same. What I was actually thinking about
was the different pronunciations of the vowel before the ss/ß. In the word
“Schoß” for example the ß tells you the the vowel is long and not short as it
would be in the word “schoss”.

So what I’m trying to say is that s/ss/ß have distinct use cases which follow
consistent rules.

~~~
_0ffh
This here to emphasise parent

------
ggambetta
I've found that the main difficulty in learning a new language is not so much
in picking up structure, but vocabulary! This book seems to address the first,
but not so much the second.

I happen to be learning German and Latvian right now. The way I'm approaching
them is to find easy-level texts
([https://www.nachrichtenleicht.de](https://www.nachrichtenleicht.de) for
German, children's books for Latvian), and reading a couple of paragraphs.
Whenever I find a word I don't know, I use Google Translate, and add it to a
custom Anki deck. Then I practice vocabulary every day.

This is a slightly more structured way of how I learned English back in the
day (my English improved tremendously by playing Monkey Island, especially
trying to understand the pirate insults).

~~~
superplussed
I built a website (and soon an app) for learning German, that has a focus on
both grammar and vocabulary. We have a frequency list with the top 5000 German
words. And we are a video-driven site, so each word has a video. And most
words also have sentences (also each with a video). This is good for getting a
feel for the spoken language, and hearing the vocabulary used in context. You
can check it out here: [http://www.seedlang.com](http://www.seedlang.com)

~~~
MobileVet
I started with German about a year and a half ago via Mango Languages. I love
the app because it approaches languages via phrases and conversations instead
of vocabulary (like Duolingo)

Your site looks really promising... I will definitely give it a shot!

What was your driver for creating it? Language is a very competitive space
these days.

~~~
ggambetta
I used Duolingo for a couple of languages, got pretty far in Italian and tried
some German. I found it either too slow, or too beginner-ish; I didn't feel
like I was learning much, and it didn't help me read news websites / novels
much. While I do like the approach - specifically, the use of words in
context, and the variety in exercises - it didn't really do it for me
(Severin, if you're reading this - sorry, man!)

~~~
bayesian_horse
Duolingo starts at the beginning. If you think a skill is too easy, try
testing out of it to get to a higher level or advance faster.

Duolingo says they don't currently aim too teach beyond A2/B1, so you may
already be past that.

Having learnt a few languages with and without duolingo, I think you will
usually need 2000+ words in a language, and close to 90% of the grammar to
read native texts well. Duolingo can get you quite close to, but not past that
mark.

------
irrational
I'd love to see this sort of thing in many languages. I have no interest in
conversational language learning or being able to write in any language. My
primary interest in any foreign language is to be able to read and comprehend
literature in that language (both ancient and modern).

~~~
Gravityloss
English language literature has had characters like Ernest Hemingway and Orson
Welles who had an effect that writing lost a lot of overcomplication. Did this
happen in other languages as well?

I feel that German newspapers use quite complicated language.

~~~
diego_moita
> English language literature has had [...] Orson Welles

?????

Orson Welles was a movie director. Did you misspell Oscar Wilde?

~~~
Gravityloss
You are right. I meant George Orwell!

~~~
machinecoffee
>who had an effect that writing lost a lot of overcomplication

I hope you're not referring to NewSpeak from 1984 which was an invention by
the party to limit people's expression so that they could not verbalize
disloyalty, and therefore not even think it.

A horrible example of state control.

~~~
Gravityloss
George Orwell - Politics and the English Language :
[https://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/politics/english/e_poli...](https://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/politics/english/e_polit)

------
Koshkin
I wish German was the language of international communication (rather than
English; I love English but I don’t like it, and I am yet to meet a non-native
speaker who wouldn’t have a horrible accent and who wouldn’t make a lot of
mistakes). German is the modern Latin.

~~~
wenc
German was the language of science in Europe before it was supplanted by
English.

It's unfair that English should be the international lingua franca. But we
can't change two facts of history: the British Empire, and America.

I agree English is not a particularly logical or phonetic language. However it
has two things going for it -- it's easy to speak badly and it is easy to
extend. Its grammar is simpler than most Germanic, Slavic, and Romance
languages (that I'm aware of -- correct me if I'm wrong). And being a mongrel
language, it's used to absorbing other languages.

Plus no need to come up with a grammatical gender for every neologism or
loanword. Chai latte? Done. Twitter? Done. Whereas in German, is it "der Tic-
tac" or "die Tic-tac"? Or default to "das Tic-tac" since we don't know the
origin of the word? This matters because the endings in all four cases of
German depend on the grammatical gender. For instance, in the dative case, if
it's "die Tic-tac", then it's "mit der Tic-tac", otherwise it is "mit dem Tic-
Tac". Or in accusative, if it's "der Tic-tac" then it's "fuer den Tic-Tac".
And then you have to get everyone to agree (for instance, der Joghurt or das
Joghurt? depends where you are.)

In practice it's not a big deal obviously (neologisms enter the German
language all the time), but in English there's just less friction and fuss.
English also doesn't have a central gatekeeping authority to maintain the
"purity" of the language -- it's more decentralized and driven by popular
consensus (more or less -- there are still rules).

~~~
bhaak
> English also doesn't have a central gatekeeping authority to maintain the
> "purity" of the language -- it's more decentralized and driven by popular
> consensus (more or less -- there are still rules).

Neither does German. If you refer to the "Rat für deutsche Rechtschreibung",
this is as the name implies just a transnational organisation from the German
speaking countries to keep the orthography (somewhat) consistent.

Which is something that English is dearly missing. A consistent orthography
actually helps language learners a lot. This is one of the few points where
English sucks as a lingua franca.

If you think about the "Duden" dictionary, this is also not true. The Duden
has always been a descriptive dictionary, not a normative one.

There is no organization in German on the level of the Académie française.

There are some small private clubs fighting for the "purity" of the language
(which of course is ridiculous for a language with so many imported
Latin/Greek/French and now English words) but nothing with enough authority to
dictate the evolution of the living language.

------
jobigoud
> If you need help with English grammar while working through this textbook,
> we recommend, for example, English Grammar for Students of German

I find this surprisingly specific. A help book on the source language specific
to the target language... What part of English grammar is only important to
students of German but not students of Dutch or Polish?

I'm a French native speaker trying to improve my Spanish at the moment. Should
I brush up on French shenanigans (yes even native speakers make mistakes and
need reference material) from a Romance language point of view?

~~~
petecox
There's a companion volume for Spanish learners, i.e. The publisher likely
just tweaks a chapter or two for each specific target language, i.e. English
Grammar for Students of $X.

The 'surprising specific' bit is in how concepts in German/Spanish map to
their English equivalents. e.g. the German edition might try and show how
English emulates declensions with prepositions, while the Spanish might
explain how the auxilary verb 'have' has multiple uses covered by tener/haber.

I'm not a native Romance speaker but yes, knowing 'French shenanigans' would
perhaps help understand the other - when I learned Catalan on duolingo (from
Spanish), I made more blunders in my rusty Spanish than in mistakes in the
Catalan I was trying to learn!

~~~
jobigoud
> how concepts in German/Spanish map to their English equivalents.

Yeah, if it has comparative grammar it's not that much surprising.

From the context of the paragraph I was assuming this would be a volume purely
about English grammar. Since it's aimed at native speakers that already know
the grammar of their own language, this would be an advanced text, for
students looking to improve their knowledge of English architecture itself.
And somehow improve this advanced knowledge in ways that are not generic, but
specific to the fact that they are simultaneously learning X or Y language...

------
dspig
This technical approach is how I tried and failed to learn German. In the end
what worked was exposure/absorption and getting a feel for what sounds right -
the same way I learnt my native language.

~~~
romes
I agree that you it would be very hard to know a language approaching it from
a completely technical standpoint...

In sharing this link I'm not advocating a total technical approach!

As for exposure/absorption you are completely right, I have attempted to
create a mini Germany head space.

What I'm doing and recommend to whoever interested:

\- I switched my Phone's language to Deutsch. When searching the web I end up
with results in German that I try to comprehend if I have time: looking up the
word on the translator (and less often on an online german dictionary - which
i should be doing more)

-I started listening to songs in German (I came to like the first albums by Tocotronic)

-I have joined a discord server titled "German Learning And Discussion" (should anyone want to search for it) , if I have time at night I join a call with a couple of natives and learners.

-I check Duolingo's stories and exercises now and then, although not my favourite methodology.

~~~
novaRom
Don't forget r/de on Reddit

~~~
siruncledrew
The memes and comments there actually helped me a lot with learning
expressions, idioms, and “shorthand” that modern German speakers use. Little
everyday nuances I would have missed from just reading books.

~~~
quelltext
Hmm, actually a lot of the memes there are parodies of the English ones you
find on Reddit. Just saying that a lot of them are almost nonsensical to
someone not familiar with Reddit's English language meme culture.

------
Tomte
As a native speaker I find it fascinating to read through the course.

OT: is there a good source for interlinear translations of texts on the
Internet? In whatever languages? I‘ve never come across such a source.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Two thoughts, oh wait, three thoughts ... The Holy Bible
(bible.cc/gospelcom.com), patent documents (espacenet), and _maybe_ for a
limited set of languages statutory documentation from countries with multiple
languages (or eg the EU: perhaps europa.eu)?

Is that the sort of thing?

------
lucb1e
Just as a tip to those who find the text somewhat light (too light grey,
perhaps also a little thin): there are add-ons that can turn off CSS and make
it easier on the eyes. For me, turning off CSS and making the browser window a
little less wide makes the "book" (website) a lot nicer to read.

Screenshot without CSS:
[https://snipboard.io/tkyu9Z.jpg](https://snipboard.io/tkyu9Z.jpg)

Add-on that I used: [https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/css-
toggler/](https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/css-toggler/)

~~~
pbhjpbhj
"reader mode" works too (eg in Firefox).

~~~
lucb1e
True! That's a thing these days (I've been using this for longer than reader
mode exists). Somehow I don't like it as much (I keep tweaking the settings
and never find one that I like), but indeed I guess that is the more modern
looking and easier way of doing this (no third party add-on needed).

------
bayesian_horse
I would recommend the Duolingo German from English course instead. It has an
app, so you can practice wherever you are, it has grammar, audio, speech
recognition, spaced repitition (how ever much you want of that) and
gameification. Duolingo courses and exercises are also improved through data-
based methods.

I have completed Spanish, Mandarin and Norwegian. The Spanish and Norwegian
ones are very comprehensive, the Mandarin tops off at around 1000 words.
German also seems to be one of their most polished languages, contrasted with
courses in Hawaiian and Navajo.

~~~
tasogare
Duolingo is really really bad at teaching you anything remotely useful. It
tried it for both languages I know (Japanese, French) and another I don't know
(Czech) and in both case the experience was terrible. It's basically just
quizzes with no lesson on grammar whatsoever. Sentences are taken from corpora
so they sometimes are really unnatural. Speech is TTS. It's a beautifully
designed glorified vocabulary app that has low educational value.

~~~
bayesian_horse
The mobile apps don't have grammar, but the web site does, for most skills in
most languages. Also, grammar is easy to get from other sites.

The sentences are not taken from corpora, but edited by Humans, mostly
volunteers. The courses are improved using user data. Some of the courses are
indeed not the best quality.

If TTS is used (many courses use natural speakers), it was OK for me, so far.

Duolingo isn't perfect but I think it's the most efficient way to learn a new
language from nothing up to a certain level (A2, maybe B1). If used correctly.
You need to decide yourself how much time you spend on repetition vs progress.
And yes, you probably need something else for full grammar explanation or
Chinese/Japanese Characters. Though they are reportedly working on better
Character exercises.

~~~
tasogare
> The mobile apps don't have grammar, but the web site does, for most skills
> in most languages.

Ok, I’ve never been far enough on their website to see it (I mostly test the
mobile app). I’ll check it soon.

> Also, grammar is easy to get from other sites.

Which defeat using Duolingo in the first place. And no, some language have
quite complicated grammar (Czech, Turkish, Finnish for instance) and somewhat
lacking in ressources if your native language isn’t English.

~~~
bayesian_horse
You won't be learning a language from a single source ever. Duolingo is the
most efficient for what it does, including teaching grammar, actually.

Yes, it might help to have a more organized grammar reference, but Duolingo
does make you practice grammar quite efficiently in my experience.

For those complaining about Duolingo: Are there better routes? The convenience
of the app, integrating audio, grammar and vocabulary are really hard to beat
in terms of learning efficiency, even if you might have an in-person course.

------
vonnik
I'd just like to point out that University of Wisconsin's German department
has been putting out great German learning material for about 100 years now.
If you're lucky enough to live in a university town with used book stores and
a foreign language section, you may find old primers there. There's even a
dialect of German called Wisconsin High German:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_German](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_German)

------
gandalfian
I worry I will learn the wrong pronunciation if I don't sort that out first.

~~~
romes
Both practice and theory should be part of learning, refer to an earlier
comment of mine for how i'm handling that

------
snambi
interesting.. what is the value in learning German?

~~~
unethical_ban
What is the value of learning any second language? Expanding cultural
understanding, increasing the number of places you can travel and be at ease.
German may not be as useful universally as Chinese or English, but there are
about 90,000,000 speakers of it, so.

