

Once a Dynamo, the Tech Sector Is Slow to Hire - j_baker
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/07/business/economy/07jobs.html?src=busln

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forkandwait
(Forgive me, I feel a barely related rant coming on...)

Quote:

'Corvallis was once a hotbed for tech start-ups. But Ms. Mann said that with
layoffs from other tech companies in the area, including Hewlett-Packard, the
city now has a glut of people like herself: unemployed engineers with multiple
degrees. “I apply for everything I can find, but there are just not that many
jobs out there,” she said.'

I used to live near Corvallis (a wonderful area, by the way), and was always
struck by how economic development discussions were ONLY focused on how to get
a large employer to move to town (both high and low tech). NEVER was there a
discussion about how to enable and facilitate "unemployed engineers with
multiple degrees" to start making their own damn companies and exporting
either goods or services.

It seems to me that entrepeneurship is requires no more special magic power
than getting a degree in CS, but we never even consider acculturating a bunch
of people to engage in it. Why always job training for somebody else's
company? Why not a massive effort to teach people how to do the basic
bookeeping and salesmanship to run small to medium size businesses? If 15% of
the unemployed engineers in Corvallis could start companies that hired 5 full
timers, they would (probably) have a booming economy all over again. Shit,
maybe we could start exporting to China (I think they value entrepeneurship
and industrialization there...).

Isn't this supposed to be a capitalist nation, for chrissakes? Carnegie didn't
wait around for someone to move to his town and give him a job because he had
the right training!

If I were a conspiracy theorist, I would say that we are all being trained to
be docile robots in large institutions that are initiated and controlled by
other people who are aware that there is an international class struggle, and
they are afraid that we might discover we can do it for ourselves and toss
them (and their tax breaks) over.

(Sorry, I just got a little emotional...)

~~~
tomjen3
>If I were a conspiracy theorist, I would say that we are all being trained to
be docile robots in large institutions that are initiated and controlled by
other people who are aware that there is an international class struggle, and
they are afraid that we might discover we can do it for ourselves and toss
them (and their tax breaks) over.

That is pretty much the theory put forward by John Taylor Gatto in
"Underground History of American Education"[1] which is actually a pretty
interesting book, even if I am not sure I buy everything he talks about.

Oh and unless he faked them, there are too many references from speeches from
famous people to just completely ignore him. Which is always the interesting
point...

[1] <http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/>

~~~
forkandwait
If I were both flip and a conspiracy theorist, I would say:

"The first thing we do is kill all the economists and professional educators"

------
b1twise
I've just been through a round of hiring--and it was more painful than it has
ever been. It was a telecommute position for US candidates only. The quality
of applications was abysmally low. The majority of applications were Java
programmers who couldn't be bothered to a) read the instructions on how to
submit their application or b) write a cover letter AT ALL.

I don't care if you have a degree. Write a good cover letter, have a resume
that isn't all HR keywords spam and actually tells me about your skills, and
PUBLISH somewhere. Have a blog that shows me what you're doing and that you
can write. Publish some code on Github or contribute to a larger project so I
can go look at your work.

~~~
tomjen3
>The majority of applications were Java programmers who couldn't be bothered
to a) read the instructions on how to submit their application or b) write a
cover letter AT ALL.

Properly because if you simply send the same letter you can send the same to
10 companies in the time it takes to conform to the wishes of one company. And
until you are ten times more likely to be hired that way, you are still ahead
(unless you are Google, all a large companies are essentially the same, so it
doesn't really matter where you get hired).

As for publishing a blog, you are hireing software engineers, not writers.
Sure you expect them to be able to write, just as you expect them to be able
to speak, but you don't hire speakers either.

~~~
jasonkester
_you can send the same to 10 companies in the time it takes to conform to the
wishes of one company. And until you are ten times more likely to be hired
that way_

Incorrect. 10 times zero is zero. If you don't put any thought into applying
for a job, you have next to no chance of getting called in for an interview.

On the other hand, 1 times something is something. If you take the time
(measured in minutes) to learn a bit about the company and job in question,
and change two sentences on your cover letter to talk about those things,
you'll find yourself moved off the big tall stack of "idiot who didn't even
bother" resumes and into the tiny little pile of "maybe we should call this
guy" ones.

~~~
tomjen3
I very much doubt the chance to get hired is zero, even if you filter them out
- there are properly people who don't do that.

~~~
jasonkester
Have you done much hiring in IT? If not, you'd be astounded by the sheer
amount of crap that comes flying at you for every job you post.

You'll have literally one thousand resumes to sort through, and of those,
roughly one thousand are terrible, poorly-written, undirected resumes from
unqualified people. You have a few seconds at most to decide if a given resume
is worth even reading, and you're in a headspace where you're pretty certain
the answer is "no".

In that atmosphere, the chance of me looking at your undirected boilerplate
resume with no cover letter and deciding that hey, this guy stands out, is
exactly zero.

Try it yourself if you want. Better still, look at all the people who can't
find a job in this industry, and the tactics they're using to market
themselves. Chances are you'll discover a lot of them using the "send the same
resume to every single job posting on monster.com" method that you recommend.

And they're going to stay unemployed until they change.

~~~
Symbol
I have to agree.

It is far, far too easy and too tempting for applicants to fire off a resume
and cover letter that is ill-aligned for the position, overly generic, rife
with mistakes, or a mix of all three. The humans screening these documents are
looking for an excuse to EXCLUDE you: spelling, a sense of appreciation for
the role and the business, and professionalism are all key here. Look, finding
a job is work. The courting process is involved and is much more than just a
submission of a resume. A gross rule of thumb: treat finding a new job like
finding a life partner. There are steps involved, and care and feeding along
the way. However, you'll likely find dividends down the road.

------
ericflo
This article doesn't seem to match up with reality. There are so many
companies out there looking for talented developers, it's staggering.

~~~
il
I think that's the problem. Everyone wants _talented_ developers. Many
companies can no longer afford to hire less talented developers who many have
been able to get a job in a booming economy.

And I'm not mentioning the millions of liberal arts majors who used to be
quietly employed but now are finding that many companies simply don't want or
need them.

That's why I think the recession and unemployment will persist for a very long
time- many of those lost jobs just aren't coming back.

~~~
muhfuhkuh
"the millions of liberal arts majors who used to be quietly employed but now
are finding that many companies simply don't want or need them"

Come on. I know the general disdain for liberal arts amongst this crowd, but
couldn't you instead pick on, oh I don't know, those who never even went to
college or even finished high school? The unemployment rate for those with
college degrees _of any kind_ is 4.5%. Among non-degree holders over 9%, and
among non-diploma holders over 12%. Yet, you're assuming it's all those
philosophy majors that make up the bulk of the unemployed?

Case in point, I'm an English major who has been working for a major mid-sized
public software company for over 8 years now making about 40k above the median
US household income, not including bonuses or stock options. Believe me when I
say I'm not one of the luckier ones, as I have colleagues in the same field
(technical publication writing, course developers, or technology journalists)
that make US$110000 or more depending on the region and experience level.

Employers look to a degree - _any_ degree - for proof that a candidate has
discipline and is a generalist who can adapt to fast-moving actions and
targets all under tight deadlines; a person who, through creativity _and_
technical prowess, can solve business problems and work with clients,
partners, and fellow associates. That seriously can't _just_ be CS majors. In
fact, what makes you think you're safe, if _FTA_ it says you'll have to bring
more to the table than just a CS degree with some C++ or Java skills? You're
just as vulnerable if you're an average coder than if you're an average
desktop support jockey or technical writer.

~~~
il
I'm actually a liberal arts graduate myself(Psychology), and the reason I went
the startup route is that it was easier than looking for a job with my degree.

As for the unemployment rate, you come on. Quoting that 4.5% figure is
intellectually dishonest when discussing the value of a degree NOW, in the
current economy.

People who were lucky to get a job years before the current recession are
mostly doing OK and surviving layoffs,etc.

For RECENT college graduates, the employment picture is far bleaker. The truth
is, employers are not hiring at nearly the rate they were before. I've seen
the unemployment rate for recent college graduates(aged 22-25) cited at
anywhere from 10% to 30%. 80% of college graduates finish school without a job
offer in hand.

If it's so easy to get a job with a liberal arts degree, I would love to refer
you to dozens of my friends who are desperate for any job at this point and
can't find ANYTHING. I'm sure you'll be able to help them out.

~~~
binomial
Heck, finding any engineering job now as a graduate with no experience is very
difficult. I would know, having just graduated as a mechanical engineer.

------
ojbyrne
“I’m sending out lots and lots and lots of applications, to everywhere within
a 50-mile radius,” says Rosamaria Carbonell Mann, 49....

... We are firing up our college recruiting program, enduring all manner of
humiliation to try to fill these jobs,” said Glenn Kelman, chief executive of
Redfin"

No disconnect there.

~~~
tptacek
The disconnect is called "572 miles of Interstate 5". Unfortunately, if we
were talking about, say, Intel instead of Redfin, the disconnect would be
called "81 miles of Interstate 5 to Portland", because this woman's problem is
that she lives in the middle of nowhere.

~~~
maxawaytoolong
I have to agree with this.

A startup I worked for long ago sold a contract to HP in Corvalis, Oregon. I
spent two weeks getting things set up and training the staff. It took an hour
to get there from Eugene, which required a 2-connection flight from Boston. I
was surprised there was such a huge campus out there where programmers could
work. It would have been great to work out there while it lasted. One of the
software engineers I worked with had a pretty typical programmer salary and
owned a small ranch, horses, an expensive BMW motorcycle, could support 3 kids
and a wife who only worked part time, etc.

Unfortunately, I think this sort of situation is rare and a bit risky to your
career... if your job disappears there aren't many alternatives unless you
move far away.

~~~
ojbyrne
The key part of the article might be this bit:

"The experience of Ms. Mann and others like her suggests that the technology
industry may not be the savior of the American job market and a magic bullet
for a moribund economy."

Fred Brooks told use quite a while ago that there's no magic bullet.

------
j_baker
Personally, I think the majority of the issue is that hiring is still
considered an open problem in the tech world. We know a lot about who _not_ to
hire, but little about who _to_ hire. I don't know what the solution to the
problem is either. Tech companies can't just open up the floodgates to every
idiot who says they can program.

~~~
kranner
The principal of a research lab I used to work at had 80%-solutions to common
management problems, which he stuck with and which seem to have paid off
remarkably well on average, at least at the scale of that lab.

His technique for hiring programmers: (unpaid) probation for 30 days, no
exceptions. He almost always confirms sooner than that, but 30 days is the
limit for someone who isn't working out.

edit: to stress: I AM NOT recommending this as general business practice.

~~~
tokenadult
How was that research lab organized? Organizations that aren't bona-fide
nonprofit charities trying to hire volunteers get themselves into really bad
legal exposure under Fair Labor Standards Acts and other regulations. Maybe
the desperate workers have never called him on that, but an unpaid month of
work from every worker the lab hires adds up to a lot of legal liability,
unless there is some specific exemption here you haven't told us about.

~~~
kranner
You're assuming it's in the US, it isn't.

~~~
jerf
Out of curiosity, then, where was it?

~~~
kranner
In India. This was an academic research lab in a bona fide university, and I
believe the same standards apply all over the world in academia.

~~~
tokenadult
I would check that last statement before counting on it.

------
carbocation
The author concludes, "The experience of Ms. Mann and others like her suggests
that the technology industry may not be the savior of the American job market
and a magic bullet for a moribund economy — even though the Obama
administration has called for a revival of math and science training and
emphasized the need for American companies to take the lead in fields like
clean energy."

She assumes that insights from a subset of the tech sector (programming) will
hold true for the entire sector. However, she has given me no reason to
believe this assumption of hers to be true.

~~~
petercooper
She also has a disconnect in the time periods involved. When politicians talk
about "re-educating" the work force, it's a mid to long term project. You
can't just roll out hundreds of six month PHP courses and expect tens of
thousands of smart, qualified developers overnight (or bridge engineers, or
machine operatives, or whatever).

------
locopati
Once upon a time, companies trained competent people to do specifically what
they needed.

~~~
j_baker
That only works in certain fields though. For example, would you see a Doctor
whose only training was on-the-job?

~~~
maxawaytoolong
Doctors pretty much are trained on the job during their residency.

~~~
akshayubhat
Wow, Doctors are different case altogether

Their supply is limited and controlled, anyone can come and say that they are
"web programmer" after reading HTML/CSS/Ruby, Even Universities increase class
sizes arbitrarily. All this is not possible in medical profession. Doctors are
few, they are trained extensively, not anyone reading anatomy book can go for
a residency!

~~~
Tamerlin
That's exactly the problem, IMO -- the bar for entry in the tech industry is
altogether too low. The glut of unqualified but formerly employed tech workers
is symptomatic of that.

And if anyone ever had any doubt about the veracity of claims that the bar is
too low, they have only to spend some time reading the Daily WTF... though I
suspect that most people outside of the tech industry would prefer to remain
blissfully ignorant and assume that the content at the Daily WTF is the
exception, rather than the rule.

------
chubs
Why don't more americans simply start your own business? If i was laid off for
an extended period, that'd be what i'd do.

~~~
forkandwait
See my rant at the top. We in the US don't train our young to be entrepeneurs
anymore.

