
Keybee: a new keyboard layout designed specifically for touchscreen devices - se7entime
http://keybee.it/
======
cdirkx
Looking at this Keybee layout it seems not very usable. The biggest change
when typing on touchscreen is using your two thumbs instead of ten fingers,
and IMO for the flow is more important that letters alternate the left (L) and
right (R) thumb, instead of minimizing distance. This way one finger can move
while the other is pressing. I'll take their "Hello there is a starman waiting
in the sky" as an example. On a qwerty layout the letters you type with L and
R are evenly distributed and the longest run with the same thumb is 3: "There"
is LRLLL. On Keybee however, the same sentence is typed almost entirely with
the right thumb (dominant hand, so I would probably use it to type the middle
letters W, H, A and space). Now the longest run is 16! I guess this would be a
bit more balanced is I figured out which of the middle keys to take with my
left thumb, but it doesnt seem worth it especially with the enormous keyboard.
As part of the younger generation I can type blind and relatively fast and
error free on touchscreen. If you really need to type a long email just switch
to a regular keyboard, having ten fingers typing is much faster than any
layout using only your thumbs will achieve.

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papaly1983
That's because Keybee is designed for one thumb typing. So it is correct to
use mostly the right thumb. Happy new year..!!!

~~~
nerdponx
Do you have a flipped version for left-handed typing then?

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papaly1983
No need to be flipped because the Keybee arrangement starts from the center of
the keyboard. So it is optimized for left and right handed at the same time.

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Fnoord
I thought you did not understand but rethinking I think Marco is mostly right,
actually.

If I am a right hand user, the right part of my keyboard is covered by my
hand, and is easier to be used. I've seen this in keyboard which don't have
any keys on a 1/4th circle on the bottom right of the screen.

If I am a left hand user, the left part of my keyboard is covered by my hand
and is easier to be used. But the left part of the keyboard has less important
keys than the right part.

Essentially, a mirror of the keyboard would be more optimal for left hand
users. Although the issue is less important than on say QWERTY. Because the
amount of space on the outer rings (most strain) is still the same for left
and right hand users. And that's Marco's point.

The amount of space your fingers can move back is smaller than the amount of
space they can reach up. Going back puts more strain on the fingers.
(Anecdotal experience.) (EDIT: and the arm, as well.)

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papaly1983
Perfect..!!!

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infodroid
Writing anything on modern touchscreen smartphones is so frustrating. I think
the problem is that the touchscreen is always going to be an inferior
interface to a physical button.

I remember what it was like using PDAs and smartphones with actual physical
keys. After a brief period of adjustment to a new device, I was soon typing
without any mistakes. It was such a low-friction transfer of my thoughts to
digital form, I took it for granted it would always be that easy.

I look forward to trying one of the new Blackberry phones for my next upgrade.

~~~
Cactus2018
You might be interested in the physical keyboard add-on module "Moto Mods" for
the Motorola Z series [https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/keyboard-mod-a-
physical-k...](https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/keyboard-mod-a-physical-
keyboard-for-the-moto-z#/)

~~~
Fnoord
Yay, QWERTY! QWERTY is being used for legacy reasons ("because we've always
had QWERTY"), because its the widely available standard (including on
computers not owned by the user meaning users need to ask or configure other
computers are swap back and forth between layouts), and because people don't
want to relearn a new layout. The original reason why QWERTY was desired is
due to typewriters getting stuck less quick because the movement wasn't
efficient. That was intentional, a legacy from the 19th century!

Programmer Dvorak or Colemak are alternatives to QWERTY but they suffer from a
lack of widespread adoption. Keyboard shortcuts might still be awkward, you're
still going to meet a massive learning curve (less with Colemak though since
it deviates only 6 key positions from QWERTY). See this post on SO for an in
depth, anecdotal comparison between the 3 [2]. A new keyboard layout is going
to suffer from these issues as well. Most of these are chicken-egg problems.
But that doesn't mean it isn't _better_ in the long run.

Without having used Keybee some things to keep in mind, apart from not being
programmer/sysadmin friendly, are that some users use a smartphone with one
hand whilst others use two. Another one seems that the screen is being used
more than with QWERTY.

I've sticked to SwiftKey because it can support multiple dictionaries, and I
like that there's a lot of themes available. However they got bought by
Microsoft recently. I also got Hacker Keyboard installed, so if I'm using CLI
(local via Termux or SSH) I can easily use common UNIX keybinds. So I'm
certainly interested trying something better, even if there's a learning curve
attached and even if its only going to be usable during touchscreen usage.

The keyboard you linked seems akin to what I had on a Nokia N900 / Nokia N950
or a Nokia Communicator. Its keys are small, it adds weight/space or takes
time to pull in/out. Plus, you're stuck to a Motorola Z (Motorola doesn't give
software updates for long). Take for example the iPad Pro case which includes
a keyboard. Its not a bad keyboard given its size but even that layout isn't
standard given the key spaces are different (small shift for example!). Both
very much not ideal IMO. Another thing one can consider is a Bluetooth
keyboard for situations where one ends up having to type a lot, or short,
quick bursts such as during keynote taking f.e. student during seminar. I'd
say that is a very viable use case. Disadvantage is these use batteries which
get eventually depleted and cannot be recharged. Plus the insecurities of
Bluetooth being wireless & sniffable.

Also important in these comparisons is how people use their keyboards
(touchscreen and physical). Which exact layout version do they use? Do they
swipe on their touchscreen? How long have they used layout X or Y? For
example, I never really got into swiping even though it has been available for
a decade. And finally, there's voice dictation which has taken some ground
past years.

[1]
[https://computer.howstuffworks.com/question458.htm](https://computer.howstuffworks.com/question458.htm)

[2] [https://stackoverflow.com/questions/23078626/are-
alternative...](https://stackoverflow.com/questions/23078626/are-alternative-
keyboard-layouts-like-dvorak-colemak-etc-better-than-qwerty)

~~~
ralfn
>The original reason why QWERTY was desired is due to typewriters getting
stuck less quick because the movement wasn't efficient. That was intentional,
a legacy from the 19th century!

That is an urban myth refuted by the author of qwerty, but it just doesn't
die.

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mankash666
They should have two layout options: Qwerty & Keybee. After all, the hexagonal
keys save space with qwerty as well.

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badsectoracula
> Yes, all the greatest tech innovations are free. So Keybee is free and it
> will be always free because the keyboard is the basic human

> Keybee was invented, developed and patented by Marco Papalia

That is dishonest, it isn't free if it is encumbered by patents. Also i'm not
sure how this works considering the author is from Italy and EU doesn't
consider software patentable.

~~~
rjcz
While I fully agree with you, there are several issues here:

\- the word "free" has several meanings in English, i.e. "free" as in "no
charge" and "free" as in "freedom" (free access, free software, etc.) - the
answer given there does not indicate which one of those is meant.

\- patents have most likely been granted in countries that recognise them -
this does not prevent from the patent being put into public domain. However,
the second sentence in question 17 seems to indicate that the license bears a
fee, which also contradicts one of the meanings of "free above.

Either way, the Q&A/FAQ is full of marketing mumble.

~~~
477353468463695
The sentence itself implies libre, not being patent-encumbered. Donating a
great innovation to humanity means making the knowledge freely available for
use. It does not mean using the knowledge to create a product and then making
this product freely available.

~~~
wbolster
thank you, random stranger, for sharing your gnu/extremism.

while i am in no way defending software patents (which I don't like at all), i
find the full-frontal attack attitude that you and many other gnu/zealots
exhibit towards random strangers on the internet so infuriating that i am
writing this comment here to let you know that people like you are exactly
what prevents me (and many others) from getting involved in some free (libre)
software projects.

thanks so much for your contribution to the advancement of libre software.

yuck.

~~~
477353468463695
My comment has absolutely nothing to do with preaching free software or even
trying to push people to make their software available under a free license.
You could even take out the word "libre" from my comment, if it irks you that
much. The meaning is the same. And the meaning is simply my interpretation of
that sentence. After having read that sentence, the last thing I expected was
for it to be patented and I was so sure of that, that I did also feel it was
dishonest to put that sentence on the webpage.

Yes, I generally would prefer for people to publish their software as libre,
especially if it does not interfere with their way of making money as is the
case here, yes, I was somewhat annoyed that I could not actually try this
keyboard out, since yes, I am enough of a free software zealot for my personal
use that I only have F-Droid installed and yes, I do actually find it
unacceptable for a keyboard app on Android to not at least allow its source
code to be inspected, as once enabled it can read everything you type from
personal conversations down to passwords and Android does fuckall to prevent a
keyboard app from just sending all of that to somewhere on the internet, but
none of that was expressed in my previous comment.

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petercooper
"swipe typing" is already streets ahead speed-wise on mobile devices. One
touch per word. And having a little travel distance is actually a benefit as
it helps distinguish the words.

~~~
wbolster
this is a very important point. i tried swiping in my phone using the colemak
keyboard layout which i use on normal keyboards, and found it utterly unusable
because the prediction quality dramatically goes down. this is most likely
caused by the lack of shapes made with the swiping gestures: colemak has the
most common letters on the home row so on practice you're mostly swiping
left/right.

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morganvachon
I'm confused by this statement:

> _" Keybee is simple and clear because all the letters are always available
> (no hidden keys) and they all have the same size"_

Checking my iPhone and my wife's Android phone, as well as an old Windows
Phone I have in a drawer, all of the letters of the alphabet are available on
the default board, none are hidden, and they are all the same size as each
other on each respective keyboard.

At first I thought you might be talking about non-English keyboards, but
looking at the Keybee board screenshots it's the same standard 26 English
letters.

So, from that particular standpoint, how does Keybee offer a more complete set
of English language characters than a device's default keyboard? This feels
like either a bad translation or dubious marketing.

~~~
papaly1983
Check this link (slide number 9) for the answer:
[https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/keybee2013/keybee-she-
smar...](https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/keybee2013/keybee-she-smart-
keyboard-pitch)

~~~
morganvachon
That does absolutely nothing to answer my question. You show a QWERTY layout
in the center, from a Windows Phone device, with every letter key the same
size relative to one another as I said above.

Maybe I'm just not smart enough to see the difference from a slide with
screenshots and captions that make dubious statements, but I'd appreciate if
you would explain anyway.

~~~
papaly1983
Of course. There is no difference between qwerty and keybee in term of
instantness. The difference is between other alternative layouts which claims
to be quicker even if they do not shows all the letters (lack of instantness).
Qwerty as Keybee shows all the letters at the same size. But Keybee can show
them two times bigger than qwerty thanks to the hex structure.

~~~
morganvachon
That's still a non-answer. I'm going to chalk it up to a language barrier as I
don't want to assume bad faith on your part.

~~~
papaly1983
I already answered at your question. There's no difference between qwerty and
keybee for your specific argument. Also the other user answered to you.

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btym
I don't see the point... QWERTY is great for touch screens, for the same
reason it was great for typewriters: common letter combinations are spaced
out. Typing with two thumbs on a small screen is comfortable due to greater
space between keys and high rate of alternating hands.

~~~
papaly1983
I understand your point but it is not only about speed..but ergonomoics, key
size and most importantly you can type just with one thumb and let the second
hand free..!!

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CapacitorSet
I think the concept is cool, I've always been interested in alternative input
methods. However, I agree that patenting it is bullshit.

The keyboard is interesting, it takes a while to get used to the new layout
but once you get the hang of it it seems fun.

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tinco
I just enabled it. I'm still a bit slow but so far it seems there's less fat
fingering. I'm in the smaller phones camp so I guess fat fingering is a larger
issue for me than it is for most who prefer the big flagship phones.

~~~
Fnoord
Problem with smaller phones is the hexagon shaped keyboard takes up more space
than the standard AOSP (even _with_ predictions and number row) or Hacker
Keyboard. Which matters more on smaller phones. Agreed on this seemingly
causing less fat fingering, but good prediction-based keyboards which have
users swiping take fat fingering into account.

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papaly1983
Thank you for the comments. Please note that I made this Keybee Keyboard first
for myself because I could not type good in a qwerty smartphone. Secondly I
decided to make it for everyone and give it for free (free apps and no ads). I
invested a lot of time, passion and money just to create a better typing
experience for more people. I also decided to protect my idea because, in case
of success, I can tranform this project in a full time job. There's nothing
wrong on that an nobody obliges you to use it as your definitive keyboard.
Happy 2018..!!! Marco. ;-)

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kristianlm
Interesting! I'm glad to see so many people are willing to learn a new
keyboard layout. I was looking at alternative keyboard layout for touch-
screens for a while, and ended up coding my own. It's based on two-thumbs
input and the layout is designed for alternating between them. There are only
5 buttons on each side/thumb so you don't really miss. You can swipe for
special keys like enter, backspace, symbols, emoji etc, and so you should have
the whole input spectrum available.

I've used it for over a year now. My friends beat me when their dictionary is
on. But without it, I'm around 30% faster. For writing commands, code or
formulas - it's superior, and that's why I like it.

It took me about 3 weeks to get on par with a normal dictionary-less QUERTY.
Learning new layouts like this takes really long as it has to go into your
muscle memory before you feel comfortable. I guess that's why we're still
stuck with QUERTY (which was designed to slow down typing on mechanical
typewriters).

It might be worth checking out for the technically-inclined. It's open source
and as far as I know - patent free. See
[https://github.com/Adellica/Thumbkeyboard](https://github.com/Adellica/Thumbkeyboard).

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jdietrich
I'll have a "P" please, Bob.

[https://youtu.be/7Kes23z_oAw?t=2m1s](https://youtu.be/7Kes23z_oAw?t=2m1s)

~~~
majikandy
Haha. That was my first thought too. This is in desperate need of an easter
egg where you get to go on a gold run!

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wscott
Does that website really just have a single sentence of explanation? I was
looking for the theory of what it is trying to solve and why they choose that
particular layout. And ideally, some reasonably done studies to demonstrate
that it is an improvement.

~~~
papaly1983
You can check the patent.

~~~
papaly1983
Also here: [https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/keybee2013/keybee-she-
smar...](https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/keybee2013/keybee-she-smart-
keyboard-pitch)

------
juliushuijnk
MessageEase keyboard works great for me.
[https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.exideas.me...](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.exideas.mekb&hl=en)

Once you have it in your muscle memory, you can sort of type blindly and use
symbols as quick as other letters. It doesn't look like KeyBee can improve my
typing.

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dsego
The 4/5 setup screen is confusing because the OK button is hidden. I actually
though it wanted me to type in PLAY and got frustrated until I figured out it
was just an animation. But I couldn't see the button until I scrolled
accidentally and the OK button appeared.

~~~
majikandy
I agree and did exactly the same. Also it describes twipe but the animation
shows it typed.

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majikandy
I really like the twipe straight up from '123' through '.' to ' ' but it feels
like an implementation mistake not to consider that action a space after a dot
which is supposed to return the keyboard to ABC. Instead it stays on 123.

~~~
papaly1983
There is a specific settings for dot-space combination. Check on Keybee
settings.

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Fnoord
Does it work in landscape mode? I had some odd issues with landscape mode
where the keyboard seemed to be in portrait mode instead, overlaying my other
app (WhatsApp in this case).

~~~
papaly1983
Hello. For now Keybee it is not optimized for smartphones in landscape mode.

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jaclaz
I think a small line should be drawn between "touchscreen devices" and
"handheld small touchscreen devices" (please read as "smartphones").

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simooooo
It's just too much muscle involved to switch layouts

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swrobel
Last updated 6 months ago

~~~
se7entime
"For 2018 we are working to add new layouts and more themes..!!!"

\-
[https://twitter.com/KeybeeKeyboard/status/947406254871281664](https://twitter.com/KeybeeKeyboard/status/947406254871281664)

