
Do Not Disclose Your Salary to Recruiters - dabent
http://jacquesmattheij.com/do-not-disclose-your-salary-to-recruiters
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bhaile
Previous discussion on same article with interesting comments:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9481487](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9481487)

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exstudent2
As stated in the article, it's best to ask them for _their_ budget. If I have
any interest at all I clearly state these two things on first contact with a
recruiter:

1\. I don't discuss my current or past compensation.

2\. Before I engage at all, I need to know what the baseline salary and
compensation package is for the role in question.

If they're coming to you, you have 100% of the negotiation leverage.

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abannin
Recruiters are often paid x% of one year's base salary. In this case, your
interests are aligned with the interest of the recruiter.

In my experience, recruiters are 'box checkers'. They have little to no
knowledge of your skill set or the skills required for the job outside of buzz
words that can be printed on a resume. The reason recruiters ask for your
salary is not to engage in price fixing but to ensure that they pursue a
placement where 1) the candidate is getting a pay bump and 2) the candidate is
priced competitively.

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mhurron
> Recruiters are often paid x% of one year's base salary. In this case, your
> interests are aligned with the interest of the recruiter.

Not entirely. It may be in your best interest to walk away from a position
that is not offering as much as you want. On the other hand, the recruiter
gets 0 if you walk away or are passed over because someone else asked for
less. So it is in the recruiters best interests to get you placed somewhere,
even if somewhere is a little lower yearly salary because they undercut
competition.

> The reason recruiters ask for your salary is not to engage in price fixing
> but to ensure that they pursue a placement where 1) the candidate is getting
> a pay bump and 2) the candidate is priced competitively.

No, it's so you don't look like your biting off more than you can chew, which
looks bad on them. If you move from somewhere with a low pay rate to somewhere
higher and you try to get that big pay bump, they're going to tell you that
you can't because you don't look like you're worth it based on your previous
low pay.

~~~
abannin
> It may be in your best interest to walk away from a position that is not
> offering as much as you want.

YES YES YES YES YES. This is far more important than any salary disclosure.
The recruiter is asking so they don't waste any one's time on a deal that will
fail because of price.

> On the other hand, the recruiter gets 0 if you walk away or are passed over
> because someone else asked for less. So it is in the recruiters best
> interests to get you placed somewhere, even if somewhere is a little lower
> yearly salary because they undercut competition.

The problem is that you're willing to sign for a lower salary. Disclosure has
no impact on you accepting or not accepting the offer, it just helps ensure
the offer will be accepted when/if presented.

> No, it's so you don't look like your biting off more than you can chew,
> which looks bad on them.

Seriously, if your recruiter is telling the hiring company information that
makes themselves look bad...they most likely are not going to close the deal.
If your current would be seen as 'too low' to the client, then they won't
disclose your current salary.

> If you move from somewhere with a low pay rate to somewhere higher and you
> try to get that big pay bump, they're going to tell you that you can't
> because you don't look like you're worth it based on your previous low pay.

If your recruiter tells you that, then drop them. Great recruiters know that
the value of the candidate is driven by the current market, not the
candidate's current pay.

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qudat
Ignoring the recruiter problem for a second, should I ever feel obligated to
disclose salary information? I have had potential employers straight up ask me
what my current salary is, should I just tell them I'm not going to answer
that question?

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weland
You're generally not even _allowed_ to discuss your salary with your
colleagues after (if) you're hired by one of those potential employers.

If it's confidential after that, it should be confidential before, too.

~~~
dantillberg
In the US, if your employer tells you that you are not allowed to discuss your
salary with your colleagues, they are breaking federal law.

~~~
antjanus
You're right. Doesn't mean there is a general stigma against doing so, is
generally frowned upon, and can put you into a position to be fired because of
"something completely unrelated but yes, totally related"

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halite
This is useful advice. I'm in Canada and thinking (and trying!) about moving
to states in very near future. honestly it's been challenging dealing with
this.

Here are few conversations (from what I remember):

Amazon Recruiter: So how much are you making right now?

Me: I'm in Canada and I'm interviewing for a position in NYC, how's that
relevant. In my Province, we've a central database with salary stats. If
you've something similar, I can use that to come up with a number backed by
data.

Amazon Recruiter: I'll get back with that info (he never did!)

Generic Recruiter: How much in CAD dollars you make right now?

(Me thinking: Do you've any idea about conversion rate? If so, you'd not be
asking this)

Me: Sorry I can't provide that information.

Recruiter: Just so you know when you work with US recruiters, this is a
standard requirement that you must provide your current salary for us to be
able to proceed.

Me: Thanks, I think I'll have to find someone else (and we ended there).

Based on news articles it seems it is difficult for tech companies to find
good people but it is equally difficult for individuals to weed out these
recruiters trickery from my experience.

Glad to see that asking for salary is not 'standard' requirement!

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X-Istence
The recruiter I went through this time around when I got hired didn't ask me
about my previous salary at all. Instead he asked what I was looking for, and
ended up giving me a higher number (hourly rate) than what I had asked for.

~~~
halite
Would you be able to share his / her details?

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antjanus
This is definitely a hard lesson to learn for many. Recruiters often cite that
it's a routine question. But just because it is, doesn't mean you should
answer it.

I've seen some recruiters straight up refuse to work with me when I wouldn't
disclose my current salary. Very glad they did.

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totalrobe
Did this thread get flagged or something? It was just on the homepage and now
don't see it.

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tomjen3
Ask yourself how much of a salary increase would I like to see, then add that
to your current salary and say that sum when asked. The recruiter knows you
are not going to take a salary that is below what you currently make, so they
will have to offer you a good salary or give the job to somebody else.

Also go read "A Strategy of Conflict", which will enable you to understand and
analyze all sorts of negotiations.

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myblake
Seriously, read this post, listen to this post. I am a terrible negotiator (as
in I have taken pay cuts because jobs seemed interesting and paid sticker
price for cars) and hate it like 95% of the rest of software engineers but
it's how the game is played and we're both ourselves individually and
ourselves as a group a disservice by not protecting this information.

~~~
fsloth
Why do you say 95% of software engineers hate price negotiations? This would
imply 95% of software engineers are unaware of their fair market price and
thus feel ill prepared for the most critical negotiations process of their
foreseeable future (even if that future extends only a few months or years).
It's only a job - you offer time and professional experience for a set price
and the prospective employer evaluates the value proposition.

Society at large does not work as a huge family - this does not mean that it's
a dog eat dog world but it's good to have some negotioations theory under ones
belt as one becomes a seasoned professional.

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abofh
When you know you're above market, it's not unreasonable to disclose, knowing
they'll go to your old employer and verify you are the "real" deal.

There's little that's a more powerful statement of your value to your prior
employer as the salary you'd previously negotiated.

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exstudent2
If you do that, you're only going to get an offer slightly above what you
currently make. Even if you're way above market, it's worth having them make
the first offer. You can potentially negotiate it well above your current
compensation from there.

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abofh
If cash is your only metric, I agree. When I'm negotiating for equity at a
startup, what the "big boys" paid is a good metric for my expectations on
equity+cash comp -- I understand you can't give me "big boy" cash, but "funny
money" is very near free - so let's talk percentages...

~~~
exstudent2
I would still insist on them making the first offer. If they offer $X /year
and Y% of equity in options, you can still say:

Y is going to have to come up quite a bit since X is too low.

When they make the first offer you have all the options. When you make the
first offer you may inadvertently undercut yourself.

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patorjk
This is a tough one, because you don't want to waste your time on jobs that
wont pay you what you're worth, so stating that you make X and need X + .2X is
a good way of weeding out the crap. The author does sort of advise this with
the notion of giving a salary requirement, but I've had friends who've used
this term and companies have ignored it, thinking they are bluffing. Also, I
do see how you could short change yourself if their actual budget was higher
when you state your salary or salary requirement. I've found the best thing to
do is to apply to multiple places and see what kind of offers you get (and
then to pit those offers against each other).

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ojgeojgaew
The ideal is not to say nothing, but to know what you're worth and state that
politely.

Most candidates who say nothing are either underpaid or overpaid and are
trying to dance around that, instead of simply reframing the conversation to
be about your market value.

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MisterBastahrd
Sure, don't tell them what you're earning. Tell them what it would take to get
you to leave... plus 15% for the inevitable downward negotiation with the
manager. If your current employer is unwilling to pay you what you think
you're worth, you have an obligation to yourself to go into the market and
find compensation that matches your expectations. With few exceptions,
compensation discussions with your current employer should be mutually
exclusive from compensation discussions with other firms. Businessmen don't
want to get into bidding wars when they can avoid it.

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russelluresti
The frustrating thing about this is that the entire concept of salary
negotiations is one of the prime causes of unequal pay between genders.

The entire culture of a company trying to offer you less than you're worth so
that they can save a few pennies is disgusting.

There shouldn't be salary negotiations - people who do the same job should be
paid the same salary. If you want to negotiate for extra vacation days or a
signing bonus or whatever, fine, but not salary. Just pay people a fair salary
and pay them the same.

The current salary negotiation setup is extremely detrimental to people and
should be eliminated, not encouraged.

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oskarth
Is there a crowdsourced list of startups that use shady recruiting practices
somewhere? Not too long ago I was approached by a recruiter for a Unicorn
company that repeatedly refused to move forward in the process before I
disclosed my "accepted salary range" (asking for their budget, as people have
suggested, gave me no response either). This was before I had even met a
single person employed at the company. Normally I would have gone around the
person in question, but this experience left a really bad impression of the
company to me.

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meatysnapper
It depends. If this a decent headhunter, and not just some chump recruiter
trying to find lukewarm bodies, then they are trying to answer the question:

"What will it take for you to switch jobs?"

No problem with telling them your current salary- their goal is to offer you
something better, and you can straight up say I'd need 30% more to switch.
Remember, they get paid a % of your salary to get you!

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Quiark
Eh, obviously. Now imagine my surprise when I came to Hong Kong and started to
see candidates' current salary on their CVs without even being asked for it.

Not to mention that many companies do 'require' it. Next time I should claim
it's confidential. Just to see how they react to a novel situation.

~~~
thenewwazoo
I've done this. It makes recruiters very, very uncomfortable. It lets you
retain all your bargaining power. It's also very, very hard to stick to, since
there's often an employment offer on the line.

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xacaxulu
Never never. The market is competitive. Just tell them "I'd be interested to
hear how your company/client values my experience" or "I'm open to competitive
offers". I've received crazy good job offers by simply never revealing salary.

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paulhauggis
Wait, what happened to freely disclosing your salary to everyone? Remember the
hashtag movement??

You mean to tell me that this is actually a bad idea?

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dantillberg
Disclosing your salary to fellow employees helps _them_ by increasing their
ability to bargain effectively with their employer. (and disclosing salaries
to each other helps both of you)

Similarly, disclosing your salary to a potential employer helps _them_ by
increasing their ability to bargain effectively with _you_.

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davidgrenier
Too bad this article makes the flawed assumption that getting a higher salary
is just better.

I recommend reading Kahneman... here:
[http://www.pnas.org/content/107/38/16489.full.pdf](http://www.pnas.org/content/107/38/16489.full.pdf)

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minimaxir
That's a rather poor interpretation of the study. The study profiles salary
among different income groups, not the difference between $110k/year and
$120k/year.

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davidgrenier
I read the paper but grant my ability to understand it is limited. My
interpretation is built on what's discussed at the end of Kahneman's Ted
presentation:
[https://youtu.be/XgRlrBl-7Yg?t=1015](https://youtu.be/XgRlrBl-7Yg?t=1015)

Is that why the downvote? I linked the paper people can make their own
interpretation... that's at least as praise worthy as "common sense".

