

The Fight to Save Japan’s Young Shut-Ins - executive
http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-fight-to-save-japans-young-shut-ins-1422292138?mod=WSJ_hp_EditorsPicks

======
patio11
One reason for this is the primacy of the workplace/school, to the total
exclusion of any third place. If you don't have a job or are harassed out of
your school, what _does one do_ when not working? Japan does not have great
ready-made answers to this question, for many people. (It seems like a silly
question, but after six years here, I honestly struggled with it after leaving
the day job. Where should one be at 3 PM on a Thursday? Is it _allowed_ for me
to just go to the gym? Shouldn't I just stay home a few more hours so that the
lady behind the counter will assume I am coming in after getting home from
work early at 8 or so?)

There exist people with similar levels of social isolation who nonetheless go
to work every day. They are occasionally written about in reports of him
hikikomori, which strikes at least some people as odd, since "I go to a place
where nobody cares about me and spend my entire day there" is not exactly out
of the mainstream of Japanese experience.

~~~
bane
I'm married into a South Korean family, and from my observation Korean society
has less intense version of Japan's social collective mood (IIR it's written
as '情' in both countries)

It's really difficult to read about this kind of thing and maintain an
appropriate feeling of cultural relativism without wanting go "oh Japan" or in
my case "oh Korea". There's been many times with my family and friends a
seemingly intractable situation will come up that a Westerner would simply
resolve with a bit of a Western Rock'n'Roll "well fuck 'em" attitude and get
on with life. As a Westerner, I find it incredibly frustrating at times. But
obviously it's more complicated then that and when I try to see things through
my family and friend's cultural lens it all makes a kind of sense.

On the flip side, I think lots of Western behavior is explained by an
insatiable desire for group membership -- despite social expectations of
individuality (especially for Americans).

People do all kinds of weird behaviors, bizarre clique joinerisms like wearing
crazy fashions, or obsess over the moment they turn old enough to join the
Marines or take on group-specific behavior patterns, and just like with 情 this
mood and desire seems indescribable to them (I don't know of any satisfactory
word in English for it). But you can go to any public place and look at groups
of people who all dress, act and try to be as "the same" as possible as their
clique-mates.

And then you end up with the strangest of all joiner group identities, the
ones made up of "individuals" who strive obsessively to be "individuals" just
exactly like all the rest of their clique-mates. Hipsterism seems to be a
particularly well known variant of this, but there are others.

I suspect a similar psychological mechanism is at play, but just on opposite
ends of the spectrum.

~~~
jpatokal
YMMV, but having seen both the Japanese and Korean sides of the coin, I'd
generalize Korea as being more "intense" on all counts: studying even harder,
working even longer, endurance being prized even more as a virtue. Although I
think both societies are slowly evolving out of this, Japan is just a bit
further down the path.

But yes, the let's-all-be-individuals-together cliques are still going strong.
Japanese Halloween illustrates this nicely: virtually everybody who dresses up
does so in matching groups.

[http://tokyofashion.com/halloween-in-japan-shibuya-
costumes/](http://tokyofashion.com/halloween-in-japan-shibuya-costumes/)

~~~
bane
It seems to tap into some kind of deep sub-cultural emotion. I mean, we _are_
social animals and all, but sometimes it gets weird.

[https://wedatenerds.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/frat-
guys.pn...](https://wedatenerds.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/frat-
guys.png?w=470&h=293)

I don't disagree at all with Koreans doing things in a particularly intense
way. Based on my readings of ancient to modern Korean history it seems to
definitely be a fairly modern cultural trait (at least not much older than the
occupation).

However, Japan seems to have a very intense cultural relationship with this
particular mood. I can't really think of a single k-drama that will spend half
the episode with a character fretting about how they may be threatening the
social harmony of their group, but I could probably pick a j-drama, anime or
manga that does at random. It seems to be an issue Japanese people spend an
extraordinary amount of time contemplating, expressing, acting upon, reacting
to, watching, evaluating, teaching and thinking about.

It can make consumption of some Japanese media quite interminable for people
who don't care.

------
jhou2
I might be way off, but I tend to view this from an economic perspective in
that these young (and not so young) shut-ins, in a pragmatic sense, don't need
to work to survive. Their parents are able to provide for them all the basic
needs for life - mostly shelter and food. It is a relatively small marginal
expense to the parents who usually already have fair incomes. Until the
parents pass away, which may take some time with Japan's famously long
lifespans, most of these shut-ins will probably be alright.

Another aspect I find interesting is that the article is written mostly from
an extrovert's perspective on culture. For an introvert, it seems like
paradise to be a shut-in. I get fed, cared for, and I can focus on my internal
life and interests, with no need to deal with others and all the problems they
bring. As an introvert focused on myself and my own well-being, there seems
nothing wrong with being a shut-in. Of course there are macro-economic
arguments against it, but from a micro-economic point of view where I only
care about my own needs, I would be satisfied with a shut-in life.

~~~
Red_Tarsius
I'm extremely introvert and – as a student, not a neet! – I've lived the past
months in a manner similar to that described by the article. I think no shut-
in nor introvert gets satisfaction from such behaviour.

~~~
marincounty
I apologize for the--know it all--you are responding to. The one thing that
really irritates me about Americans(including myself at one time) is we think
we know, or have the the answers to Everything! I can kind of stomach it when
it comes to our culture, but it become nauseous when we comment on other,
usually better cultures.

~~~
Ideka
I downvoted you.

You shouldn't generalize people (doing it by race is called racism; doing it
by country has no fancy name that I know of but it's wrong all the same), or
refer to some cultures as "better" than others.

~~~
jblok
Doing it by country is racism. Doing it by religion is also racism. These
things make up your race.

~~~
precisioncoder
That's simply not true, according to the definition of race it requires
sharing a biologically identifiable connection with other people. An Asian man
and a Native American could be born in the same place and raised in the same
family but would not share the same race. Discrimination on the basis of
country is a separate thing which I don't think has a specific term. Wasn't
able to find one with a quick Google at least.

------
wallflower
One of the nice things about having a 9-5ish job is that I have to go into the
office on a regular basis (not necessarily every day). Even just being in an
environment (yes, open workspace) with some kind of energy/noise is good for
someone who is so inwardly focused they tend to not need headphones in such an
environment.

As someone who has done mini shut-ins of almost double-digit days at a time
(with corresponding spike in News.YC activity), I believe that once you get
off a regular schedule it can be hard to recover. Having some facsimile or
proxy of human communication, be it Facebook or people 'liking' your News.YC
submissions (or even worse comments), is like empty fast food calories for
social attention - but still nourishing at some basic level.

Like they say for people who may be divorced, keeping busy with some project
or activity is a smoke screen for feeling lonely. Ultimately, the smoke may
clear and you'll feel intense spurts of sadness. Yet - your friends and
acquaintances won't know because they think you're always doing interesting
things with different circles of people. People tend to see what they want to
see.

~~~
doyoulikeworms
I left my job to make video games, mostly solo. I'm financially able to pursue
this lifestyle for the foreseeable future.

> One of the nice things about having a 9-5ish job is that I have to go into
> the office on a regular basis (not necessarily every day).

You hit the nail on the head for me. What I miss most from a normal job isn't
money or status, but simply being around other people. I never once thought
that I would have felt this way.

I'll be joining a coworking space when money permits, to be sure.

~~~
chipsy
Your HN profile says you are in the Bay Area. If Oakland is within reach, we
run a free coworking session every Tuesday afternoon. It is primarily social
in nature(with occasional "everybody is busy" days). [0]

More generally, I try to make my daily routine get me out of the house before
I turn on the computer. That is, either I go out of the house and go to the
gym, then work when I come back, or I go out of the house and sit down at a
coffeeshop and work for two-to-four hours, then go to the gym, then come back.
Changing locale tends to matter a lot to me, even if I'm not actually social
while I'm out.

[0] [http://www.meetup.com/SF-Bay-Area-Game-Jamming-Game-
Design/e...](http://www.meetup.com/SF-Bay-Area-Game-Jamming-Game-
Design/events/219976985/)

------
code_duck
This is of interest to me as a member of my family, here on the U.S. (totally
non Japanese) fits the syndrome quite closely.

As far as I can tell, a combination of social anxiety, depression, pressure,
laziness and lack of pressure (enabling behavior from his parents) has led him
to not work in over 20 years and live with his parents, socializing online but
showing no interest/ability in socializing with people in person... Or doing
any productive work.

As time goes on, it becomes harder and harder to join society - my relative
now is almost 40 but has very little experience in the 'real' world. He has no
experience doing things like buying a car, negotiating a mortgage or lease,
applying for a job, working at a job, maintaining a household in general,
sustaining or building a mature romantic relationship, or any of the other
skills he should have learned in his twenties. It's harder to be a 40 year old
18 year old than an 18 year old one.

~~~
prawn
I think we'll see more cases like this, but also we'll see technology
providing people with new ways of functioning.

I think a lot of it is about inertia and always choosing the easier path. If
your parents enable you to live without having to work, for a lot of people
the ease overrides the benefits of work (independence, sense of worth, etc).

Down the track, more and more socialising will be digital, more shopping will
be online and so on. Some people will exist publicly only as avatars bearing
little resemblance to their physical selves.

------
jkot
So first, economy in Japan sucks, there is not that many jobs and houses to go
around. Also problem is not just depression, but shame and lack of
alternatives. And hikomori also affects women at large scale.

Japan (and any Confucian culture) shames people who do not accept their
traditional roles. Men are expected to work until they fall dead. Women are
expected to take care of children (while optionally following career at the
same time). This sort of works in closed system, where people do not really
know about any alternatives.

But with internet everyone can see that ordinary western people live happy
lives, without working themselves to death. I bet most hikimori just want to
live western way. Go to nice college, have a few parties, eventually graduate
and work 9-5 job. This is simply not an option in Japan, with its elite
schools and work culture.

'Saving those people' without providing better alternative is a nonsense. They
are already on path they are most happy with. Shaming and dressing it as
mental illness is not going to work.

~~~
semperfaux
_Japan (and any Confucian culture) shames people who do not accept their
traditional roles. Men are expected to work until they fall dead. Women are
expected to take care of children (while optionally following career at the
same time). This sort of works in closed system, where people do not really
know about any alternatives._

You could look at it this way, I suppose, but it falls apart a bit when you
consider that Japan's falling birthrate is at least partially a product of
_women_ tossing out their traditional roles. Yeah, that still leaves plenty of
pressure on everyone, but it also sets a precedent, or at least enforces it.

But no, most Japanese -- hikikomori or not -- do not "just want to live
western way." The things you mention about that are largely the opposite of
Japanese experience and expectation, and to suggest that kids who have never
left the nation, let alone their own homes, have somehow adopted the cultural
norms of cultures thousands of miles away just by consuming their internet
leavings seems more than a bit questionable.

~~~
Morgawr
>to suggest that kids who have never left the nation, let alone their own
homes, have somehow adopted the cultural norms of cultures thousands of miles
away just by consuming their internet leavings seems more than a bit
questionable.

I don't completely agree with the post you're replying to, however this part
is not so far fetched to believe. It doesn't matter much how often these
people go outside, the Japanese media and culture is vastly focused on Anime
(at least for these shut-in people, which are one of their target audience)
and there has been a constant cross-pollination between the western and
eastern cultures. A lot of people are living a more western 'make-believe'
culture in Japan that easily goes against their traditional set of moral
values. The Japanese world is changing and we're still seeing this major
cultural shift, which very well might be the cause of this, or at least a
catalyst.

As a matter of fact, these people are much more detached than the rest of the
population and are much more susceptible to the western Internet cultural
phenomenon to such an extent that it might be changing their point of view in
such a way that they find themselves unable to fit into their actual culture.
Obviously this is all my hypothesis, it might very well be unfound.

~~~
jimmies
> As a matter of fact, these people are much more detached than the rest of
> the population and are much more susceptible to the western Internet
> cultural phenomenon to such an extent that it might be changing their point
> of view in such a way that they find themselves unable to fit into their
> actual culture.

Hmm. I think you might be right. I can tell for me, as an Asian guy that came
to the US about 6-7 years ago, I feel much more liberated and less stressful
being in the US than in where I came from. It is exactly the make-believe
culture that I have been exposed to thanks to the Internet that made me feel
detached from the culture over there. Whether it is the main reason that
people shut in, I can't tell. It is probably not the case (and it doesn't have
to be) for the majority of my fellow friends who came to the US to do post-
graduate studies (I came for undergrad after being a drop out). They often
find that it is more stressful to live in the US where they don't have friends
and their familiar environment.

------
nichtich
I think this is relevant.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8114547](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8114547)

As opposed to some other commentator, I don't think the shut-ins are actually
content with being isolated. It's more like a trap that you fell into and
don't know how to climb out of. If society don't try to help them, (some of)
them may fell down even further, to the point of suicide.

------
Red_Tarsius
I think the Hikikomori phenomenon has been widespreading due to its
popularization. imho being a shut-in has become a codified cry for help, a way
to express a certain discomfort backed up by social proof. It has nothing to
do with being lazy or spoiled, as implied in Japanese media like the _Welcome
to the NHK_ anime; I've yet to read the novel.

Hikikomori exists outside of Japan too. I recommend you to watch the following
video about hermitism and shut-ins:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70bv5gaN4LI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70bv5gaN4LI)

------
Kiro
I only skimmed the article but are there hikikomoris who are happy with their
life? I'm an introvert who is happily anti-social and wouldn't mind staying
home all the time if I could afford it.

~~~
tendies
It only works if you have a garuntee that you can be a shut in till the day
you die. Other things to worry about is getting health/dental care.

I've been a shut in for 5 years now, I was pretty content and happy for the
first few years. It was only until my parents started having financial
troubles and begun the process of divorce when it turned into hell. Everyday
I'm terrified by the thought that one day I'll have to go back to society. I
knew some people that went through this and they have mostly ended up homeless
because they simply were too under qualified to get a job. Health care is a
problem too, I do my best to stay in shape and eat healthy foods to prevent
any major illnesses because if I were to get sick it would mean severe debts
as I have 0 savings.

~~~
Kiro
Thank you for sharing this. Do you mind telling us a bit more? How do you earn
money? How are you spending your days?

------
jalcazar
The following paragraph is key to understand the phenomenon.

I'm a western who have been living in Japan for years and is still difficult
to understand how parents allow and support their children to be hikikomori.

“In western society, it’s difficult to understand this situation,” Dr. Kato
says. “Western society parents strongly push [their children] to go out. But
in Japan, parents are strongly afraid to push.”

~~~
Aeolun
What is your alternative then? Push them and if they don't respond throw them
out onto the street?

Once your children understand that you won't actually throw them out, any
conversation pushing them is just negatively reinforcing their impression that
interaction is a problem, not a solution.

------
kbart
"People who consider themselves hikikomori exhibit a wide range of symptoms,
including depressive, autistic and obsessive-compulsive tendencies. _A
minority appear addicted to the Internet_ "

That's strange, I always thought Internet was the main cause of this problem.
I've imagined hikikomori as those in S. Korea or Taiwan who die of exhaustion
while playing online few days straight.

~~~
semperfaux
That's definitely not hikikomori. The real thing basically never leaves its
room, with family providing food. Even a less extreme example almost certainly
would never leave the home for long enough to die anywhere else.

They do often spend a lot of time on the internet, but it's not a cause, it's
a related fixation (when you're trapped -- by what's probably some combination
of your own preference and perceived outside forces -- in a room, the internet
provides a wealth of things to do). It's a social malaise that might as well
be an extension of the NEET phenomenon.

~~~
anon4
>the real thing basically never leaves its room

>thing

>its

They are still people, even if you disagree or outright hate how they live
their life. If this was an attempt at making the sentence gender-neutral,
please use "one(s)" and "they" in the future like so: _The real ones basically
never leave their room, with..._

------
meow_mix
Reading over the comments it seems to me that there's some misunderstanding of
introversion. There's a large difference between being introverted and being
socially isolated. A healthy introvert rarely goes over a day without speaking
to someone. Keep in mind introversion does not mean that someone is against
seeing people at all.

------
peter303
Similar incidence of agrophobia in USA. This source says is 0.8% in USA.
0.5M/127M in Japan [http://www.uptodate.com/contents/agoraphobia-in-adults-
epide...](http://www.uptodate.com/contents/agoraphobia-in-adults-epidemiology-
pathogenesis-clinical-manifestations-course-and-diagnosis) Talking about .5%
to 1% range.

------
narrator
Does anyone who was born and raised in Japan have anything to say about all
this? I've read several threads over the last couple of days on this topic and
it seems that the only people who comment on these kinds of stories are at
best foreigners living in Japan. Is this a taboo topic for native born
Japanese?

~~~
w1ntermute
> Is this a taboo topic for native born Japanese?

No, it's just that there aren't that many native born Japanese who are fluent
in English or visit Western websites.

------
Animats
There's a public service announcement for hikikomori:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50Y7R5zP0wc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50Y7R5zP0wc)
This, strangely, is in English.

Support website for hikikomori: [http://www.newstart-
jimu.org](http://www.newstart-jimu.org)

------
nemesisrobot
The first time I'd heard of hikikomori was in _Ready Player One_ by Ernest
Cline

------
bpodgursky
I wonder if a mandatory national service or conscription would work to pull
some people out of their bubble. I'm not in love with the idea in general, but
if you can stop someone from wasting their whole life...

------
teh_klev
Possibly useful insights from similar discussion a couple of years ago:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5993441](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5993441)

------
spearo77
relavent music? [https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/child-
psychology/id6959497...](https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/child-
psychology/id695949726?i=695951271)

