
The French Language and Why We Learn It - ohaikbai
https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/the-useless-french-language-and-why-we-learn-it/
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gumby
As an English speaker since age 3 I found it both valuable and pleasurably to
learn French and German, as the three languages are like the vertices of a
common triangle, with so much shared history that speaking one provides
insights into the other two.

The article points out another factor though: I am lucky (?) enough to use all
three daily; in the US there is no reason for that to be the case. If you
learn a language as a "foreign" language it will forever be foreign to you; if
you learn another language as a living, thing that you _must_ use you will
internalize it. That's not a moral judgement; simply the way of the world. And
in many countries one language suffices.

~~~
pasbesoin
It's even more interesting with exposure to neighboring languages. You observe
more and more how they flow one into the other. Modern nationalities have
introduced something of a step function feature to this, but not at all
thoroughly.

Americans, for one, often wonder at how many languages a European may speak.
And there's significant instruction and emphasis on this, I understand. (My
own experience is with the U.S. education system.) But, too, there's simply
the fact that over relatively small distances -- in our modern world --
language changes. And you grow up accommodating that.

~~~
dorchadas
> It's even more interesting with exposure to neighboring languages. You
> observe more and more how they flow one into the other. Modern nationalities
> have introduced something of a step function feature to this, but not at all
> thoroughly.

This is called a dialect continuum [1] for those curious.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialect_continuum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialect_continuum)

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tragomaskhalos
UKer here: the French my daughter learns at school is very different from the
language I studied 40-odd years ago - much more emphasis on how young people
communicate and vastly more English loan words (and no French writers in sight
as far as I can see). At the same time, the French themselves, who were
infamous for their uncompromising linguistic pedantry in my youth are now far
more relaxed and accommodating: whereas before speaking English to a Parisian
seemed something akin to a crime, now it is considered quite normal.

~~~
moray
I can confirm, French people had always been so proud of their language, but
now not only tourists life is much easier in Paris, english words are also
being used daily incorporated in their language.

A very common example that younger generations use is the expression "c'est
cool ca" to simply say that something is cool.

source: I live in Paris

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jjgreen
I heard "On y go" in Paris, made me laugh.

~~~
skywhopper
I saw a shop in Köln with this name. Multiple layers of amusement.

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ironjunkie
Interesting take.

There is something to be said about how proud the French are about their
culture and language. What would be seen as exaggerated nationalism in other
country, seems perfectly acceptable for the French.

I'm wondering if that glowering pride pushes more people to learn French.

~~~
maelito
I think you're right on the first part, we're proud about some particular
aspects of our culture and society (bread, wine, holidays, hospitals). But
that doesn't make the french nationalists.

You will never see a flag of France in a garden. Except for the 2 weeks of the
world cup or during the terrorist attacks. Politically, we're lost trying to
copy the silicon valley and Germany. Most people are convinced today it's
better to in a sense dilute the country in the European union.

~~~
barry-cotter
If being proud of _your_ culture and history doesn’t make you a nationalist
what does? The fact that French and American nationalism are expressed
differently doesn't mean the French aren’t nationalist. Irish nationalism is
expressed to an amazing and annoying extent in hatred of the English. Flag
waving is not the be all and end all of nationalism.

~~~
watwut
Being proud does not make you nationalist. The issue with flag waving is the
association with expansive military actions, repression of minorities etc. As
in, outside sport match situation (where anybody waves flag), flag waving
people were and are usually pro expansion, quite hateful and fearful of other
ethnic groups, authoritarian etc.

Likely the association in USA is different. But here, when I see flag in
backyard, I would expect open or at least above average animosity toward
tourist of wrong color. And also expect support for authoritarian anti
democratic group.

~~~
chimeracoder
> The issue with flag waving is the association with expansive military
> actions, repression of minorities etc. As in, outside sport match situation
> (where anybody waves flag), flag waving people were and are usually pro
> expansion, quite hateful and fearful of other ethnic groups, authoritarian
> etc.

France has proven itself to be more than capable of that ugly side of
nationalism, whether or not they are waving flags.

~~~
watwut
The point here is that when/if it turns ugly, perpetrators will wave flag.
Hence association of open flag waving with "the ugly stuff is about to happen
in the open and for real".

~~~
chimeracoder
> The point here is that when/if it turns ugly, perpetrators will wave flag.

It already _is_ ugly, and in plain sight. That's my point: people who aren't
themselves directly affected by it don't notice it or dismiss it because it
doesn't look like the jingoistic, flag-waving nationalism that _they_ think
of, but that doesn't mean it's not there.

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chillacy
I’ve been learning for a couple years, and recently thought I’d practice on a
French speaker I met at a conference. He listened politely for a couple
sentences, remarked that I was “killing the French language”, and continued in
English. So I do see the authors point on that.

~~~
justanother
Chances are, he was just remarking on your pronunciation, which is all anyone
cares about with French. I studied it for 5 years (IB/college many years ago)
and still managed to get the brusque English-menu treatment in Quebec. For the
past year I've listened to almost exclusively French music and my
pronunciation has improved dramatically. Now even when I whip out a couple
lines of simple A1-level stuff, natives compliment my French. The only thing
that has changed is that I talk more like the songs I've learned.

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pazimzadeh
You wouldn't say "Je suis la jeune fille", you'd say "Je suis une jeune
fille". (I am the young girl vs. I am a young girl)

What was actually said in the ad: "Je suis le grand Muzzy"

Thanks anoncoward111

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anoncoward111
Je suis le grand Muzzi-- I am the great Muzzy!!

everybody knew Muzzy growing up :) also you're correct, but conceivably
there's a situation where one might say, "je suis la jeune fille avec qui tu
parlais hier soir"

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sbussard
This article just gave me a decently compelling reason to finish learning
Spanish - for business. I grew up right on the border of Mexico, so it's weird
that I don't know it. But I do know French fairly well and have never found it
very useful.

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latte
I learned French for a couple of years and would be happy to compare my own
experiences with the author's. However, having read the whole article, I
failed to understand the author's main ideas.

I would be very grateful if someone could give a tldr summary of it.

~~~
oska
It was surprisingly badly written for the LARB.

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anonu
Garbage review of a garbage book. Not sure why I spent all that time reading
something uselessly long.

Calling a language "useless" is shallow and trite. Learning a language,
wherever it ranks on the world's popularity list, is about learning a culture,
opening new doors, conversing with a people and broadening your mind.

The only way to learn a language properly is to immerse yourself in it. The
US-centric model of endless classes and then going off to Europe to party with
a bunch of your friends with whom you only converse in English will only set
you up for failure. The initial impetus to learn was potentially a romantic
one, to learn a foreign language. But your dream was dashed by the actual
difficulty and perseverance required to learn.

