
Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees - joker3
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/03/upshot/student-debt-big-culprit-graduate-school.html
======
ghobs91
This is what happens when there's 0 pressure on universities to price their
programs competitively. If the government is backing every loan, the schools
get paid up front, and the risk is then transferred to the gov to collect, why
WOULDN'T a university charge as high a tuition as possible and hop on the
gravy train?

Their non-profit status hasn't even done much to keep costs low, as they can
just keep hiring tons of redundant administrators and have never-ending
construction, thereby justifying higher tuitions as "operating costs".

The dept of education needs to treat universities the same way Medicaid treats
healthcare providers. Determine what it actually costs per student per year to
run a university, and tell the schools "Accept $x or shove off". If they're
going to benefit from gov backed loans, they should play by the govs rules.

Look no further than this chart
([https://i.imgur.com/B3sVMjg.png](https://i.imgur.com/B3sVMjg.png)), around
2010 was when the gov started fully backing and giving the loans directly, and
conveniently it's when students needs for loans skyrocketed. It's so obvious
that colleges took advantage of it.

Enough is enough, this college cost situation is entirely the fault of the gov
for allowing it to happen, and it's a massive drag on our economy and the
potential of our citizens.

~~~
freewilly1040
This is why I'm so skeptical of the "free college" rhetoric from Elizabeth
Warren and the like... The underlying problem is the giant wealth transfer to
colleges, and the progressive fixes seem to be to transfer even more wealth to
them.

~~~
jimmaswell
Free college works just fine elsewhere.

~~~
ngngngng
Yes, but do other places have the complication of having to replace systems
that are sucking billions of dollars out of students to line the pockets of
university presidents?

This is what makes me skeptical. A solution in the United States for our
education, healthcare, or other problems has to involve removing the leeches
from the system. But political bribery is legal in the US, and the leeches
have more than enough money to bribe the politicians.

So insurance companies will keep existing. University presidents will keep
taking home 7 figures. Turbotax won't go away anytime soon. You can either
find a way to suck money away from the vulnerable, or you can be poor.

~~~
Elv13
Canada did switch from "for profit" health care to universal one in the 60's.
Of course the doctors were furious, but it worked, eventually. Same thing for
electricity in Quebec in the 40's. Same thing from prying the education system
out of the church hands in the 60's.

In all the case of electricity, it is hugely profitable for the government and
used to balance the budget. I went to university and turned a good profit
working part time as a programmer (while paying everything and having an
apartment). My University had a balanced budget too and grew over 50% since I
graduated. Hospitals are as good as anywhere else. They spend billions
building them and replace the older facility as they become obsolete. Yet the
cost are totally under control.

Public infrastructure work as long as the bureaucracy is kept in check and
corruption is managed properly. Inefficiencies and corruption is unavoidable,
but at least the slippery slope of "on purpose" waste like US Universities is
avoided.

edit: typo

~~~
tastygreenapple
Unfortunately for America, the grift is part of the system. American colleges
aren't expensive because they've been investing in the organization, often
they budget for a worse university. Each year, more money is allocated to
administrators who aren't involved in teaching at the expense of instructional
material/quality.

Moving to a university as a center for education means ending the iron rice
bowl for overeducated good thinkers. Good luck.

------
prions
I went back for my masters in CS after being a civil engineer for two years
and learning cs my free time.

These articles panning formal education don't fully grasp how difficult it is
to get your foot in the door as a non-cs person whose also working full time.

I also wanted to do something more technical than just web dev, which most
career changers seem to land up in. Being a grad student opened a lot of doors
into more technical roles in companies that are _only_ reserved for grad
students.

Grad school is expensive, but I went in with a solid plan. I mitigated some of
this by going to an in-state school with a good CS program and commuting to
class. I was very focused in my course choices and was a 4.0 student, which
unlocked even more opportunities.

I was able to land two good internships (one in embedded development and one
in machine learning) and used that experience to springboard into a high
paying role in NYC. I have no problems living alone in the city, paying my
loans, and still saving a significant amount of money per paycheck.

This is completely anecdotal but what I'm arguing is that grad school can be a
good idea if you have a solid plan of how to get the most out of your
education. The people I see who haven't gotten their money's worth came into
school and just drifted through while assuming that opportunities would come
to them just by virtue of being a grad student.

~~~
iscrewyou
I’m a CE too and almost done with my PE. I want to stay engaged with learning
after I’m done. And CS is definitely something I want to do afterwards but
don’t really want to pursue a Master’s or any schooling. Can you recommend any
CS books you loved? Anything iOS related would be great but I’ll take any
recommendations from a fellow CE.

~~~
prions
One of my favorites when I was a CE and looking for interesting usecases for
my job was Automate the Boring Stuff with Python. I was able to automate and
speed up lot of slow, manual processes like signing and stamping shop
drawings.

~~~
iscrewyou
Ok thanks! I’ll get the book and go through it. Funnily enough, the only CS
course I took in college was Python. I am familiar with the language but I’ve
only made very simple scripts that are barely 20 lines of code. Looks like
it’s a good road to go down to get better at things.

------
crsv
As someone who's hiring folks right now, a shocking trend is applicants who
chained expensive middle tier private college expenses with middle to low tier
private college masters programs - often times unrelated to the ultimately
role they're applying to now.

These investments aren't setting them up to be compelling candidates against
folks who have equal and sometimes lesser tier schools as their undergraduate
education coupled with meaningful real world experience. This carries over to
performance in interviews as it related to applied knowledge as well. I'd say
when putting a risk lens to this, it doesn't bode well for the likelyhood of
timely repayment of this debt at scale.

~~~
mediaman
How much of what you see is people who had pursued master degrees during the
economic downturn?

I heard that there was an enormous amount of people exiting the workforce to
pursue education when there were few jobs available. Instead they likely got a
pile of debt with no real furtherance of career goals as the economy
recovered.

~~~
crsv
This is a great question. There may be some variability by role type, but for
the last two hires where I started noticing this trend usually the masters was
acquired 17-18 or 18-19 on the resume (2 year masters programs). These are
also for mid-level roles as opposed to entry level or senior. Probably a lot
of factors but I'd wonder if the readily available access to student loans was
the biggest enabler. Just off the cuff I'd be curious if these decisions
involved the perception of necessity for masters degrees or in how many cases
they simply wanted to prolong the experience of undergrad (college is often a
good time, I get it), and with the barrier being no more frictive than the
student loan process they navigated for under grad, the decision just being
the path of least resistance more than a calculated risk/reward decision.

------
rongenre
Grad school really needs to have a cost/benefit analysis applied. I'd have
loved to go and really deepen my understanding, but it's pretty clear that
both in terms of income lost and not a huge premium paid by the industry over
my BS and experience it's not worth it.

It is something I may pursue if I get a windfall and am no longer concerned
about retirement.

~~~
duxup
I think maybe the only real way to know what the cost benefit might be for an
individual is to just ... go work for a while and then see what you find in
your experience and life.

Then you're making a much more educated calculation as far as what you think
it might get you, and if you want to go back to school and that.

Just throwing that all on the front end while you're in school seems a bit
like gambling.

~~~
rongenre
The only advantage I can see to going for an MS straight out of undergrad is
that your lifestyle should be pretty low-rent.

But doing grad school because you're good at school and don't know what else
to do is a trap lots of otherwise smart people fall into.

~~~
fma
It's a major advantage. I went to the same state university for my masters, so
to me it was a continuation of my undergrad but in classes I was actually
interested in. Even dumping money into a startup, I graduated with a low
amount of debt. I lived a thrifty lifestyle, made money from internships, and
after my sign on bonus for my full time job, I was debt free after graduation.

My concentration for my MS was AI & Computer Networks...which I've never used
:) Because of market forces I'm an application developer.

I graduated 11 years ago and between then and now (married, 2 kids) I doubt I
would have found the time and motivation to go back to school. It was around
the housing crisis and jobs were crappy/not available so that was another
motivation to do my MS. I also had the connections to form a startup (which
failed) with other peers which has lead me to my current career.

------
permatech
In engineering the quip was always "if you're paying for graduate school
you're doing it wrong" ... to even get in the door for most hardware jobs
fresh out of school you need a MS. A PhD may be preferred, and will start with
a higher salary -- but put in ~5yrs instead of 2. As long as the tuition is
covered and you make money as a TA or RA in a low-cost of living area you
should come out ahead in the engineering field. Not sure how that translates
to software.

~~~
Ocerge
I did undergrad research in school (CS, moved on to industry after I got my
BS) and I heard the same thing; all of the grad students I worked with
(Masters as well as PhDs) were paid by grants and the like. I went to a large
state university that was pretty good at CS but not elite, yet all the people
I worked with managed to not go into debt to get their advanced degrees. It's
anecdotal I know, but I thought it was a given to never go into debt as a
CS/engineering grad student if you can help it.

~~~
bitcoinmoney
It’s not anecdotal. Some schools even don’t accept you if you don’t have a
scholarship for a PhD.

------
dpflan
I think a good example of good economic value are the growing offerings for
M.S. in C.S., like Georgia Tech's OSMCS program which is offered completely
online at a price less than $10K total.

""" Tuition & Fees for OMS CS: Tuition: $510 per 3-credit hour course (most
OMS CS courses will be 3 credit hours) Fees: $301 per academic term of
enrollment ($194 institutional fee + $107 technology fee). Fees are assessed
only for those terms in which students are enrolled in courses. """

> [https://www.omscs.gatech.edu/program-info/cost-payment-
> sched...](https://www.omscs.gatech.edu/program-info/cost-payment-schedule)

There are other programs, like Data Analytics.

------
JackFr
I'm not sure what societal purpose is being served by Federal student loans as
a class for graduate school. Eliminate them entirely.

The primary effect will be to reduce the disconnect between the cost and the
value. As an added benefit prices should come down, schools at the margin will
fail.

~~~
elliekelly
And number of graduate degrees conferred should come down. I'm not sure what
purpose is being served by the vast majority of graduate degrees other than
being a requirement to get your "foot in the door" because everyone else has
one, too.

------
duxup
I wonder as far as education goes if graduating college, working, and then
returning for a masters or similar things would be a better pattern. Or even
graduating high school, working, college, working, college, or something else
would be a better pattern.

I've worked with some folks with MBAs who have no clue about how to work with
people / think they're just "the boss" and what they say goes because no
reason at all. Worked with folks with CS degrees who I don't think really like
to code / can't troubleshoot at all.

Front heavy education seems efficient on the surface, but I'm not sure makes
sense without having a perspective on what life is like after that.

~~~
joker3
I really don't like the idea that education is a thing you do once in your
late teens/early twenties and then finish. There are good reasons to do
something then, but there's no good reason to stop.

~~~
duxup
I changed careers via a bootcamp. I've got VERY mixed feelings on how that
industry works...

But just the idea of going back to school to sort of "retool" or expand your
toolset for 3 months full time, or 6 or something and get something worthwhile
IMO could be the future. The question is if employers will support it.

Granted going back for a more traditional school experience could be a very
legitimate route too.

~~~
bunderbunder
I don't like the bootcamp model. I also don't like what a lot of graduate
programs have become, insofar as they're jockeying to become souped-up
bootcamps by making ever more grand career promises while trying to minimize
the amount of time it takes to earn a degree.

Just no. Schools shouldn't be selling jobs. They should be selling education.

To that end, what I really want to see is more schools than just community
colleges allowing you to take classes without being enrolled in a degree
program. Once upon a time I contacted a university to see about taking some
additional classes to fill in some gaps I didn't manage to fill while I was
getting my bachelor's, and they told me that I couldn't just take a few
classes; I'd have to enroll in a bachelor's program, become a major in the
school, and go through earning a second bachelor's degree in a field for which
I already held a bachelor's, just to get access to one or two classes.

That's ridiculous. And anachronistic. It's a model that's designed for an era
when postsecondary education was primarily reserved for children of a
privileged elite class, and a very few people who were trying to break into
the wealthy elite class. There's a huge gap between that model and what we
actually need nowadays. In failing to adapt, the orthodox educational
establishment is doing society a huge disservice, because the only other
people to address it are a bunch of for-profit organizations who see the
demand, first and foremost, as an arbitrage opportunity to exploit.

~~~
duxup
>Schools shouldn't be selling jobs. They should be selling education.

I think that is what we have now... the education is disconnected from the
jobs in the sense that the price makes no sense.

I think a lot of what you describe is what happens when an education system
thinks they're just selling "an education" without consideration that their
student's are can't afford it.

~~~
__full_pint
This seems to really come down to a couple of factors:

\- What program the student chooses

\- Is said program at the University recognized

\- If recognized does the program provide a proper mix of theory and
application

\- What opportunities does the program actively provide for the student

\- Is the student willing to be an active participant in their education

\- Is student and active participant in what resources the program offers

If yes to all of the above, then student really receives a proper well rounded
education practical knowledge, and the resources to find a job. Along with
that they have the tools to continue to be a competitor in the market and in
their current employment.

Far too often it seems that a degree just implies employment and competitive
salary. If properly used and taken advantage of it really implies being a much
better competitor when all else is held equal.

------
deepakhj
California already had free education. See the "California Master Plan for
Higher Education." We had to stop because of prop 13.

"The State’s higher education and prison systems are a study in opposites. The
prison system saw its state funding in dollars leap 436% between 1980 and
2011. Back then, spending on prisons was a mere 3% of California’s budget;
it’s now 10%."

[https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/10/california-
publ...](https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/10/california-public-
university-higher-education/)

[https://time.com/4276222/free-college/](https://time.com/4276222/free-
college/)

[https://senate.ucsf.edu/sites/default/files/2017-02/Reclaimi...](https://senate.ucsf.edu/sites/default/files/2017-02/Reclaiming-
Californias-Master-Plan-for-Higher-Education.pdf)

------
raleigh_user
I did school => work => now going back to school. Granted I didn’t study CS
undergrad but taught myself a lot.

Since, I’ve learned and worked on some interesting problems. I want to work in
big tech or in consulting. To do so, I need to be a lot better and/or have
great grades.

So spending 2 years going back to school and improving seems worth it to me.

I have 0 student loans from undergrad and very minimal commitments as is.

------
madengr
Who the hell pays for an MS?

At least back when I was in engineering grad school, everyone was covered by
RA or TA grants, in addition to being paid by those.

Of course in-state tuition at KU in 1996 was under $100/credit-hour, so if I
did pay, those 9 credits/semester would be under $1k total.

~~~
__full_pint
I’m confused as well, I’ve known a few MS CS students who didn’t do the RA TA
Route, but were paying out of pocket. I never asked why because it seemed to
be an infringement on their privacy.

~~~
bitcoinmoney
RA TA requires you are a slave of the professor. If you just want that degree
by taking classes and doing a small project then you gotta pay up. Trafeoff

~~~
__full_pint
Yeah but RA or TA requirements are A) pretty beneficial B) worth the thousands
of dollars that are in exchange especially when considering A

------
noodlesUK
Every time the topic of universities comes up, I’m reminded of how the
staffing makeup of my university has changed, even just in the past 5 years.
It’s gone from the majority of staff being academic to a majority being non-
academic. Whether this is a symptom or a cause is as yet unclear, but at least
here in the UK, a trend towards the wastefulness I hear about in US
institutions seems clear. Just this month we’ve started an academic
restructure which adds an additional layer of administration staff across the
university, replacing the few specifically departmental administrators with a
much larger body of admin staff who have a much larger remit.

------
F_J_H
Something I've speculated on - being a student provides a person with an
identity that is reasonably "high status", or certainly higher status than an
entry level position one might be forced to take in absence of a finding a job
in one's chosen field of study upon earning a Bachelor's degree. (Especially
if it's a Master's program.) So, for some, continuing on with a master's
degree is preferable, despite the questionable marginal return.

On the other hand, degree inflation is now a thing. In some fields, those you
are competing with you for a job likely have master's degrees already, and
you'll suffer by comparison.

*edit: typos

------
Merrill
A Master's Degree seems most useful in two cases: 1\. to change field if you
made a mistake with your Bachelor's, or 2\. to enter the US after getting a
Bachelor's in your home country.

------
blockchainman
“To quote an official of the U.S. Department of Education, many colleges
“choose to increase tuition because they can get away with it.” - The scandal
of tuition by Thomas Sowell

------
s1mon
Academy of Art is a real estate company with an education problem. They have
countless illegally modified buildings around SF
([https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/matier-
ross/article/Academy-o...](https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/matier-
ross/article/Academy-of-Art-agrees-to-60-million-settlement-10804028.php)),
with a ton of diesel buses spewing pollution to cart around wanna-be artists
from all over the world. Note that these students didn't have to show any
portfolio to get in, they just needed to come up with the $$$$$ somehow. The
owners have a showroom for their classic car collection which isn't generally
accessible to even the transportation design students
([https://thebolditalic.com/just-how-much-is-academy-of-
art-s-...](https://thebolditalic.com/just-how-much-is-academy-of-art-s-
vintage-car-collection-worth-the-bold-italic-san-francisco-32cc8bfa70ac)).

------
techpop10
What an idiotic story for the NYT.

OK, so you have a really awful Masters program for art at a for-profit school.
So that damns all masters programs?

The problem isn't the school or the loan program... it's that someone would be
so ignorant to think there is any sort of return on that kind of investment in
education. It's not like the school is lying (that's not the allegation at
least). There has got to be some level of personal accountability here. I'm
assuming people incurring the debt at this school are adults with an
undergraduate degree and I'm assuming if you've made it that far in life, you
probably understand debt, the job market and how you might repay that debt.

Normally I'd say a Masters in Journalism is a waste of money but clearly this
author might have benefited from learning some critical thinking.

------
heroHACK17
One thing I wish the article touched on: Why aren't we asking ourselves how
current tuition rates got so high in the first place? If the federal
government allows public universities to get away with creating administrative
roles like 'Director of Picking Blue or Yellow Gatorade for the Football
Team', that demands close to six-figure salaries, there's no wonder students
have to incur debt to go to school. They aren't paying for their degree, they
are paying the salaries of ballooning administrative chaff.

------
Stay_frostJebel
Let's face it, most humans do not want to think about financial reality, look
at Greece, look at a substantial number of the debtors owing that 1.5 Trillion
in loans for 'education'. It's one thing to get a meaningful degree, and
something entirely different to get a MFA at a school that didn't even review
an application portfolio. We try to have some standards for mortgage
borrowing, wouldn't it make sense to do the same for education borrowing?

------
diogenescynic
This is a big reason I chose a cheap state university for my MBA and have paid
for it in cash while taking classes part-time. I absolutely wasn’t willing to
take out $165,000 at a 9% I test rate for some of the top tier programs and
private schools.

------
blockchainman
Excellent article by my hero Thomas Sowell:

[http://thelawofentropy.blogspot.com/2015/03/the-scandal-
of-c...](http://thelawofentropy.blogspot.com/2015/03/the-scandal-of-college-
tuition-by.html)

------
kurthr
tldr

The Academy of Art (San Francisco) is just another place that figured out how
to scam the loan system by labeling itself a Graduate School where the $limits
are higher. Yale is substantially lower priced so it's not about quality or
student degree choice... it's about scamming.

~~~
sct202
Privately owned for-profit art school should be a giant warning to anyone
thinking of enrolling.

~~~
musicale
No kidding. And foisting massive debt on art students just seems abusive.

------
GcVmvNhBsU
Mentioned in the article is a company called 2U. The Huffington post had an
article not too long ago about how online program managers like 2U contribute
to the high cost of programs, and how masters programs are specifically
targeted because there are not reporting requirements on admissions.

[https://www.huffpost.com/highline/article/capitalist-
takeove...](https://www.huffpost.com/highline/article/capitalist-takeover-
college/)

