Ask HN: Where to go for the cheapest EE degree in the U.S.? In the World? - peter_d_sherman
======
startupdiscuss
I would have to guess that the best value is Germany.

Darmstadt is a lovely little fun, hip town and they have a reputable
engineering school at TU:

[https://www.tu-
darmstadt.de/studieren/abschluesse/bachelor/e...](https://www.tu-
darmstadt.de/studieren/abschluesse/bachelor/etit-elektrotechnik-
informationstechnik-bsc.en.jsp)

There is a lot of scholarship money to fund your living expenses here:
[https://www.tu-
darmstadt.de/international/home/funding/index...](https://www.tu-
darmstadt.de/international/home/funding/index.en.jsp)

But the actual costs are very low. A few hundred dollars a semester. I can't
find the one for EE bachelors but here are some ballpark figures for
comparative programs:

[https://www.tu-
darmstadt.de/studieren/beratung_hilfe/details...](https://www.tu-
darmstadt.de/studieren/beratung_hilfe/details_4_45376.en.jsp)

[https://www.trophee.tu-
darmstadt.de/course/coursefees/index....](https://www.trophee.tu-
darmstadt.de/course/coursefees/index.en.jsp)

~~~
praneshp
I spent a few months in Darmstadt. Agree about all the positives you
mentioned. One negative I want to add is that relatively few people speak
English.

~~~
startupdiscuss
I did the same thing -- a summer in grad school doing research -- but I did
think it was a great opportunity to learn German.

~~~
praneshp
Yep, iirc I was not officially "registered" with the uni, but they still
opened up free basic german classes if I was interested.

~~~
vram22
Interesting. On what status (i.e. type of visa) did you go to Germany?

~~~
praneshp
Sorry, I don't remember anymore. It was a scholarship called WISE, but I'm
unsure what type of work permit I got, etc. If I can hunt down my old passport
I'll check

~~~
vram22
Cool, thanks.

------
chrisBob
Are you just interested in the lowest up front cost in dollars? I went to the
US Military Academy. Tuition, room and board are free, you get a small stipend
each month and you have a guaranteed job at graduation. You pay for school
with 5 years of service as an Army officer. I was a Mechanical Engineering
major, but they have a decent EECS department also. The military academies
have an interesting setup where they are officially an engineering school, and
everyone, even the history or law majors have to take an "engineering track".
The engineering majors also have more humanities courses than their peers at
most schools.

~~~
pc86
I'd be interested in a comparison of your earnings over those five years of
service compared to the median income for the first five years after
graduating from public/private/Top-10 schools. I still think you'd be getting
the best deal overall but the community college + state school route may seem
more competitive in terms of cost after factoring in the relatively low pay of
O1-O3s.

~~~
spilk
I think after 5 years of military service as an officer and a military academy
EE degree you could easily obtain very lucrative military contractor work, but
of course this is generally going to be in the weapons/electronic warfare
sphere which may or may not be ethically compatible to some folks.

~~~
brettgriffin
The two aren't mutually exclusive; you could easily get contractor work with
five years of EE after going to another school (provided you can pass the
background and security checks).

~~~
pc86
Absolutely, but if they're hiring for the last slot and you're up against a
USMA grad former O3 (probably still in the reserves, too) that's very tall
hurdle to clear.

------
limeblack
In regards to the U.S. I would argue the absolute cheapest option would
involve going to a fairly large community college first then transferring to
the cheapest in state University.

This is a ranking vs cost issue somewhat. Ga tech is a good school in the top
5 but not as cheap as the Wyoming state schools for cost[0].

[0]: [https://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/04/10-states-with-the-
cheapest-...](https://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/04/10-states-with-the-cheapest-
public-college-tuition.html)

~~~
MrEfficiency
I did this for my chemical engineering degree.

~2 years of Community college, I got 60 credits over the 3.5 years I was in
school.

I also worked a full time midnight shift job.

Both were huge. The job gave me a heck of a story for my future interviews and
the community college was cheap.

------
kamyarg
I would say METU @ Ankara, Turkey:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East_Technical_Universi...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East_Technical_University)

You can see prices(~200$/term -- thanks to value drop in Turkish Lira) here:
[http://oidb.metu.edu.tr/en/tuition-fee-
amounts](http://oidb.metu.edu.tr/en/tuition-fee-amounts)

The EE department is infamous for being competitive.

Pros: Ankara is very cheap, the campus is huge and very active, the
technopolis is also very active with companies such as Siemens, Udemy,
OpsGenie etc. English is the main course language. Turkey is beautiful and
central for your summer plans. It accepts SAT with minimum 1200 out of 1600,
so for a native speaker with good math skills, you should be able to get in
easily, it is very competitive for Locals, arguably the best Engineering Uni
in Turkey with a huge alumni network in EU/US/CA.

Cons: Ankara is a bit boring, but campus being huge makes up for that, some
low-level staff(canteen clerks etc.) don't speak english, students would be
happy to help-out. Some Prof decide to teach mixed with Turkish, but this is
not very common, exams are always English.

Disclaimer: I have studied as foreign student in CS(CENG) department, I made a
really good choice choosing METU and CENG, EE I am not sure. Feel free to
reach out if you have questions.

------
programLyrique
Tuition fees in public universities are low in France:
[https://www.campusfrance.org/en/tuition-fees-
France](https://www.campusfrance.org/en/tuition-fees-France)

For instance, a bachelor degree is 170 euros per year (+ 90 euros of student
life and campus service fees). Housing can be expansive in some cities like
Paris...

For instance, the bachelor degree of EE at Sorbonne université (former Pierre
et Marie Curie university before it merged with the historical Sorbonne):
[http://sciences.sorbonne-
universite.fr/en/education/diplomas...](http://sciences.sorbonne-
universite.fr/en/education/diplomas/sciences_and_technologies/bachelor_s_degrees/department_of_electronic_engineering.html)

Bachelor degrees are typically taught in French though. Master degrees are
sometimes taught in English.

~~~
pstch
The rules on this are a bit complicated, though : officially, this price does
not apply to anyone who has worked more than two years since their last
diploma. Persons in this situation may have to pay thousands of euros (1k/2k
per year) to go to a public university. In most cases, the price is covered by
some institution (such as "Pole Emploi", which handles unemployment) or by
some professional reconversion organization.

Note that many universities don't follow these rules at all, and will let you
sign up (paying the normal price) even if you worked more than two years since
your last diploma.

I don't really know how it works for foreigners, and many people (including
social workers and advisers) are confused by this.

~~~
programLyrique
I found the tuition fees on campusfrance, which is the official website for
foreign students who wants to go into the French higher education system. They
actually state: "The difference is that in France, whether you are French or
foreign, the State pays most of the cost."

I also know some foreign students in French universities, who went doing
masters or PhD and they pay the same as a French student. I doubt it is
different for bachelor degrees.

This article from Le Monde implies that they charge foreigners the same price
as French students:
[https://www.lemonde.fr/education/article/2014/11/26/faire-
pa...](https://www.lemonde.fr/education/article/2014/11/26/faire-payer-plus-
cher-les-etudiants-etrangers_4529662_1473685.html)

I think that you speak about "formation continue" in your first paragraph. I
think that if you register of your own, you actually get the normal fees. It
is only if you qualify for "formation continue" which is more restrictive than
being out of school for 2 years. It seems that it means you are funded by Pôle
Emploi, or a company etc (see here: [https://www.univ-paris8.fr/Formation-
continue](https://www.univ-paris8.fr/Formation-continue)). So someone who is
jobless but not registered as jobless in PôleEmploi can do"formation
initiale". Also: [https://information-documentation.fr/scolarite/regimes-et-
mo...](https://information-documentation.fr/scolarite/regimes-et-modalites-de-
formation/formation-initiale-ou-continue) For sure, it does not seem to be
very clear.

~~~
pstch
Yes, I was referring to "formation continue". It is true that if you register
of your own, you always get to "formation initiale". However, most sources on
Internet state that "formation initiale" is only for persons that "have not
studied or did not stop their studies in the last two years".

Both my pedagogical (from the university) counseler and the one from Pôle
Emploi told me that I was not eligibile to "formation initiale", and that I
could only continue studying in "formation continue", since I had already
studied, and worked for more than two years. Many people told me the same.

Luckily, I did not listen to them, and still registered, successfully.

I think that many persons (including myself & many public education workers)
have a poor understanding of this (admittedly unclear) part of the education
code. From my understanding, everyone is eligible to "formation initiale",
while some people in a specific situation are eligible to "formation
continue", which has been misunderstood as meaning that people that are in
this situation are also not eligible to "formation initiale".

------
roma1n
The French École Normale Supérieure will pay you around 1200 euros per month
to study there. There are strings attached though (10 yrs public service
commitment).

~~~
captain_perl
Well, this is an American site, and Americans can communicate in any language
as long as it's English.

French is one of the most difficult Western languages to master, so keep that
in mind. Think a year of formal study.

Even for Germany, the visa office typically gives you a German language test
that requires you to speak the language well.

If you're one of those people that thinks "I'll pick up a new language on the
airplane", you're in for a rude awakening.

~~~
znpy
> Americans can communicate in any language as long as it's English.

Any language. As long as it's English.

I... I guess?

------
VLM
Time value of money is a serious issue.

There's a nice private engineering-focused school near me that costs $5424 for
8 credits per semester as a "part timer" or $13013 for 12 or more credits per
semester. So 50% more credits graduates you 50% sooner but costs a mere 139%
more money.

Of course you need to factor in the cost of living to come up with a total
cost of taking 8 years vs 4 years.

The math can get extremely weird if you can do scholarships; you might run a
moderately large net profit if you join the military in a support role (commo
tech?) and take some classes during your enlistment and some CLEP tests, then
collect the GI Bill afterward leaving the military while in school if you have
some financial self discipline. Or a ROTC scholarship, etc. Reserves will get
you less money but go quicker. National Guard service, depending on state, may
result in $0 tuition at a state school.

I would recommend against ROTC scholarship in that the military will assign
your branch based on stack ranking GPA, and engineering school GPAs tend to be
pretty low compared to anything else, not that there's anything inherently
wrong with chem corps or air defense. Also officer life is management not
technical so if you have an EE degree you're unlikely to get branched commo or
cyber you're statistically more likely to manage 50 truck drivers because in
the military management is interchangeable cogs. Still, if you're willing to
do work unrelated to EE for a couple years the military would provide a
negative cost AKA net profit if you want a "cheap degree".

------
kahlonel
Education is free in Germany. If all courses in the degree are offered in
English, you won't even have to learn German. You'll have to bear costs
associated to moving here, of course.

~~~
_jn
As a ballpark for expenses: I know people paying well under €300 per month for
rent in smaller cities. €2/day lunch at university is possible (though not
necessarily tasty).

------
orbifold
There are quite a few good technical universities in Germany. In no particular
order (although ranked roughly by prestige):

\- TUM Technical University Munich: Pros: Lots of interesting tech companies
in the Munich Area (such as Intel, Siemens, BMW etc.), TUM has a good
reputation, Munich is a very nice city to live in Cons: Munich is very
expensive

\- KIT Karlsruhe: Pros: Relatively cheap cost of living, lots of interesting
computer science / electrical engineering professors

\- TU Dresden: Pros: Cheap cost of living, nice city, Global Foundries lab is
located there, allegedly good EE department

\- TU Berlin: Pros: It's Berlin.

\- TU Darmstadt: Pros: Nice Fraunhofer institutes, but bigger focus on compsci
and mechanical engineering

------
antoinec
42 is free, their main campus is in Paris, but they opened a branch in the US
recently: [https://www.42.us.org/](https://www.42.us.org/)

~~~
chrisseaton
That's neither a degree, not EE, is it?

~~~
antoinec
Yeah looks like they are not doing EE actually. For the degree part, I assumed
the point of getting a degree is to find a job. Even though there is no formal
degree with this school, you won't have any troubles finding a job.

~~~
esmi
If your goal is to be employed and anywhere will do this might be true but if
you’re seeking a specific job, like research scientist, then you’ll have
trouble (not impossible but very difficult) finding that job without a degree.

------
ultrasounder
The cheapest yet probably recognized all over the world ( to a certain extent)
and with good track record of quality instruction would be the Indian
Institute of Technology, India. And they have quiet a few of them spread
across the country. EE dept was especially strong in my hometown (Madras) 10
years back and I am sure that's the case now. URL. Cost FREE.
Yes.[https://www.iitm.ac.in](https://www.iitm.ac.in) You heard that right. But
you have to go through a one of the most rigorous entrance examinations in the
world(IIT-JEE) to get placed. But once you get in like they say, your life is
made. Email in the profile so feel free to reach out.

~~~
startupdiscuss
Can anyone person from any country in the world apply after sitting for the
exam?

~~~
akhil_lb
I completed my undergraduate degree from IIT Madras. It is not free, there is
a tuition fee. I think the tuition fees for a foreign national would come
around 4k to 5k USD. You can find eligibility criteria for foreign nationals
over here[1]. 1\.
[https://www.iitm.ac.in/sites/default/files/uploads/adm._pro....](https://www.iitm.ac.in/sites/default/files/uploads/adm._pro._for_foreign_nationals.pdf)

~~~
arsalanb
AFAIK (Because I studied at one of these institutes) it's open to only NRIs
(non-resident Indians)

------
adminu
In Germany university is for free (except a half yearly sum around 270€) and
we have some fairly good universities I believe.

~~~
szatkus
Are you sure? I checked the site of my local UT and it seems it's not free for
non-EU residents (1200-1600 euro per semester).

~~~
adminu
I checked and I think it depends on the state you go to, most of them are free
though. You can look it up here: [https://www.studis-
online.de/StudInfo/Gebuehren/](https://www.studis-
online.de/StudInfo/Gebuehren/)

------
azhenley
I’m a professor in an EECS department in the US. A lot of students pay little
to nothing thanks to scholarships. There are also a plethora of student jobs
that can help as well.

The opportunity cost and your time are the actual costs.

------
kop316
(This is a US centric reply, I can't help as much if you are not in the US)

So a couple of question to pose first:

\- Can you live at home? If so, do you plan on living at home?

\- Are you looking for scholarships?

\- Are you working while at school?

\- Why are you going for absolute cheapest? Why not best value?

I ask these because they are important questions that will shape what you look
for.

I hesitate to say "cheapest" because like many other things, you will get what
you pay for. If you go to a crappy college that does not have any prospects of
getting you a EE job, then you just wasted a lot of money. I think best value
is looking into a 2-year community college that will transfer to a state
school in state. Make sure the in state school is a decent engineering school,
and it has partnerships with engineering companies. Those schools are
generally "feeders" into companies, and will offer internships and jobs after
college.

Housing is not a negligible cost either. If living at home is an option
(understandably, it may not be), that will also save a lot of money as well.
If that is not an option, you will likely have to work while in school to keep
costs down. I personally worked as a Resident Assistant and I got free room,
board, and a food allowance. But you can also find paid internships during the
year that are full time in the summer that will defer costs. My brother did
that, and was offered a full time job at a major company afterwards.

On the other hand, there are scholarships as well. I know that many government
jobs offer full ride scholarships in exchange for working for then for x years
afterwards (usually 4 years). ROTC will not only give you a scholarship, but
will offer subsidies as well.

~~~
pliftkl
The best piece of this post is hidden in a sentence in the middle, and I
wanted to call it out:

If cost is an issue, go to a community college BEFORE going to a 4-year
engineering school. Community colleges are a fraction of the price of a
university.

Any EE degree is going to require a significant investment in calculus, some
diff eq, linear algebra, chemistry, physics, and likely some humanities.

With some clever coursework you can do ~2 years of full time EE coursework at
a community college.

~~~
projectileboy
I'd second this advice if budget is the main driver. To add on to what you
said, if you're on an engineering track, your first two years are more or less
the same wherever you go anyway. And as an added bonus, if you didn't do
exceptionally well in high school, getting good grades at community college
can make it easier to transfer into a more competitive state school for your
third and fourth years.

------
buburum
Argentina.

Tuition is absolutely free (regardless of immigration status, you don't even
need to prove you are a resident), there are scholarships to cover transport,
study materials, and so on and so forth.

The only thing you'd have to pay is for your own living costs. Work is
unrestricted, so you could work to earn whatever money you need and, in fact,
it is customary for students to work through college.

The down side is that the career is harsh: 5 hours of class (usually 5pm to
10pm) every day + homework + school projects + exams is the norm, for at least
6 years (which is how long it takes to earn the degree), most people actually
finish in 7 or 8. And classes are only in Spanish.

------
peter_d_sherman
The reason this is posted on HN is because Google doesn't seem to understand
this query. Google comes up with entries such as "The 25 most affordable
Engineering schools" or "The 50 best Engineering degree programs". If the
cheapest "value" on these lists is around $12,000/yr, then that might be
considered affordable by some people -- but I'm looking for the absolute
cheapest. Please post if you know of an EE program in the U.S. or elsewhere
that costs less than $12K/yr. I'm guessing people are afraid to post, because
their answer might turn out to be "incorrect" by virtue of other posters
posting yet cheaper alternatives. But please post! No answer is wrong for
this! I'm just curious what the options are...

~~~
chrisseaton
You literally want the cheapest degree possible? No consideration for value or
quality whatsoever?

You can probably find some institution somewhere in the world which will give
you a degree that is legal according to their local laws for $5 and no time.
Is that what you want?

But even cheaper than that in terms of money would be free via a full
scholarship, which you can get any many institutions if you're good enough.
But then that costs you a lot of time.

~~~
peter_d_sherman
I'm not looking for a piece of paper, no. I'm looking for a hands-on learning
experience with competent instructors, and the collegiality of classmates. The
instructors don't have to be Harvard or MIT grade (note that electrons will
still flow in the ways electrons flow regardless of if I learn those ways from
a Harvard or MIT Professor, or someone else). I'm just a value shopper for
education, nothing more, nothing less. Thus far I think the responses to this
query have been fascinating and tremendously useful! But no, I don't want a
$5, no time, no learning degree. That would defeat my purpose, which is to
learn EE fully and thoroughly, not necessarily to get a job in EE...

~~~
phasetransition
You can arguably learn more about the practice of EE from Dave Jones' YouTube
channel, or local hardware Meetups, or "The Amp Hour" than college classes.
And those are free.

And go spend a couple of hundred bucks on Horowitz and Hill (2nd or 3rd Ed.)
if you want to learn about analog. That's a good bang for the buck.

In the traditional path, your best bet will be spending your last two years at
an abet accredited state school that is teaching focused, not research
focused.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
The "practice of EE" and an _actual_ EE education are not the same thing.

An example: this morning I was thinking of a model where I need to open and
close a door when a sensor is activated. The simplest way would be for it to
pivot on a horizontal axis like an old-school garage door. Now, given a
certain weight of door, how do I calculate the amount of torque my
motor/drive-train needs in order to open that door?

The average graduate with an EE degree should have no trouble getting the
answer in a few minutes: it's basic physics and algebra (maybe calculus if you
want precision). But the average person who learned EE from watching YouTube
channels probably will have difficulty.

------
rkjcx
This is for a US based university. Have not attended that many university's to
be able to do an actual comparison, but here is the info for my alma mater.
Additionally I studied CS, but I know they have a good EE program as well.

The school is California State University - Los Angeles (CSULA). It is an ABET
accredited school.

If you are just looking at tuition it runs $6,744/ 2 semester year for
California residents. Estimates for a non-resident living on campus run
$35,638/ 2 semester year.

Here is a link to the Universities cost and financial aid page:
[http://www.calstatela.edu/financialaid/2018-2019-cost-
attend...](http://www.calstatela.edu/financialaid/2018-2019-cost-attendance)

------
a-saleh
EE Means electrical engineering? In czech republic I have seen a year of study
for non EU citizens between 3000 and 5000 Eur a year, 3 year study is the
standard length.

Cost of living for a student was around 4000-6000 eur a year, when I was
student (~5 years ago), should still be comparable.

~~~
mlejva
I should note that two things've changed: (a) college dorms are often full and
students may not get one & (b) rent went up a lot in last 1-2 years because of
a shortage of rentable apartments.

But you definitely can live very cheap here if you manage to either get
yourself a dorm or find roommates (+ apartment).

(I'm CS student in Prague)

~~~
sannee
Basically, if you want a dorm here, you have to start reserving in May/June.

------
sloaken
US answer:

If I was doing it, the first thing I would do is look into CLEP (College Level
Examination Program) tests. About $30 a Credit hour I believe. You can knock
out 2 years of school with it. To be fair, some are not easy.

Like someone else mentioned look at community colleges. Different states have
different nomenclature. But generally public College is the first step, then
University to finish.

If you are thinking IT, I would recommend Western Governors. It is online, you
pay per 6 months, and you can take as much as you can handle. In theory you
could graduate in 6 months, but I doubt that is practical.

------
wprapido
Argentina. Some really good tech schools, like UTN. Free. Living costs for a
student should be about 5 grand a year. Spanish skills needed.

------
napsterbr
Brazil: it's free and extremely high quality if you go to a place like USP,
Unicamp or ITA. You didn't specify the language :) these places are hard to
get into though; it's common for people to spend 3+ years studying so they can
get approved in one of those.

------
zumu
Another route for the U.S. is to try and get a scholarship. If you're a high
school student and you test well, a high SAT or ACT score should get you a
full ride to a school some where.

------
wholien
If you have good grades & scores, most (all?) state schools have full-rides.
Ivies and stuff have full financial aid too if you qualify (family income
etc).

------
kull
In NYC the CUNY schools are affordable and have good courses

------
VK538FY
Some have mentioned Germany. I haven't noticed Canada. I know both university
systems, though not for electrical engineering specifically.

Germany is a solid choice. Far better conditions than in some neighbouring
countries (cough cough France). Depending on the state (Bundesland), the fees
can be very low to none. Again state-dependant, but in many cases foreign
students must lock a yearly amount into a bank account and can only withdraw
1/12 or so each month. Quite rightly so: unless you're a monk, you'll need a
bit more than they force you to lock up. Bachelor level is almost exclusively
in German (exceptions may exist) and I suggest learning German: there are
specific avenues granting university access and it's an investment of 6 months
to 1 year at least. Living expenses are fairly low from my perspective.

Canada is a good choice because even if most foreign students pay _much_ more
than Canadians or provincial residents, it's still several times cheaper than
the equivalent in the US. What I've seen in Québec is of very high quality.
Language (French or English) depends on the university. Linguistic questions
aside, and here I speak specifically of Québec (other provinces may vary), you
may be obliged to complete a series of pre-university college classes to bring
your maths to level. The university generally offers these. Living expenses
are probably a bit higher than Germany but still comparable.

Other things to consider, especially since we're talking about engineering:
recognition and professional orders. Recognition: diplomas from countries
known as diploma mills are like a stone around the neck whereas diplomas from
others are generally well regarded. Professional orders: if engineering jobs
in your target work country require membership in a professional order and
your diploma is foreign, well, good luck with that -- in the best case, it can
take months to join, in the worst case, they make you take corrective classes.

Finally, medium term. When you need a job. Canada vs Germany is a harder
question. I changed careers and moved between the two so my perspective is
skewed. I know that an EE diploma in Germany will definitely get you a good
first job that will teach you a lot. The thing is, unless you're German,
you're unlikely to want to stay there (some odd cultural issues, high taxes,
relatively low salaries for talented people -- those are the general
complaints of, let's say, North American and European foreigners). Canada has
a relatively good labour market with better social protection than the
southern neighbour. If you work in Canada, flexible people tend to fit in
quickly (unless problems with the linguistic divide), but the taxes are also
very high in some places, starting salaries are _sad_ , and the brain drain to
the US is unfortunately real. The winter in most parts is highly subjective.

