
The Hushed Dangers of Startup Depression - bproper
http://www.betabeat.com/2011/11/22/u-cant-haz-sadz-the-hushed-dangers-of-startup-depression/
======
benl
Just as broken bones are a danger inherent in riding a motorbike, depression
is one of the dangers inherent in trying to start a company.

Understanding this leads to two helpful realizations:

1\. It's nothing to be ashamed of and should not be stigmatised

2\. You would be wise to take precautions to protect against the danger (just
like you would wear a helmet when riding).

The danger is particularly strong for solo founders, simply because of the
lifestyle some have to live. Long periods of time spent on your own, slow
progress toward your goals -- these are signals that the depression-triggering
algorithms in your mind will latch onto.

Some things that may work to counter those signals:

* Socialise with friends, family or new people every day. If you can't socialise on a particular day, spend some time making plans with people to socialise in the near future.

* Be having sex, and regularly. Seriously, this is a very strong signal.

* Exercise a lot. Run, swim, work out -- even just walk around the neighbourhood.

* Plan your work to have near-term achievable milestones.

* Eat healthily and avoid alcohol. A weak immune system leads to frequent illness, which leads to slower progress.

~~~
davidhansen
> Be having sex, and regularly.

I know that hipsters and other socially capable people have invaded the
technology industry in the last few years, but it should be noted that an
entreaty to most technologists to "just have more sex" is extremely unhelpful.
Would you tell a homeless person to "just make more money"?

As a matter of fact, telling this to someone whose depression has a large
social disconnect component to it may trigger further feelings of inadequacy
via the mental model of "I'm the only one who seems to be incapable of doing
what is obviously so easy to this person, and everybody else."

~~~
nickpinkston
The "have sex" comment is less "you suck if you're not getting laid" and more
"if you have a SigOther, have sex". I've definitely found myself too tired for
it after all the craziness of a day...

~~~
lusr
The problem is that somebody who is depressed doesn't think rationally - in
fact, in the vast majority of the cases this dysfunctional thinking is
precisely WHY they are depressed to begin with. They WILL see the advice in
the negative way, not the positive way. Furthermore, in cases of severe
depression or stress, a diminished sex drive is quite normal so sex isn't even
an option - further fueling the feelings of inadequacies mentioned.

------
edw519
I know nothing about depression and even less about the "startup community",
but I still think that this might be a good thread to throw in some of my
thoughts, for what they're worth:

First, a little background...

In March, 2008, I attended my first Startup School. Even though I had been
programming for many years, it was my first in-person exposure to the "startup
community". It was incredible! For the first time in my life, I felt like I
was immersed into the group of people with whom I belong. (The closest feeling
I had before that was here at Hacker News.) Two great days talking about
passionate things with like minded people! Then I got on the plane home and
sat with 2 girls reading "People Magazine". All I could think was, "Welcome
back to the real world."

Fast forward to today...

Sorry to say, I'm having trouble distinguishing our "community" from the
"community" of those 2 girls. Sure, they were probably interested in
celebrities while we're interested in technology & business, but the
similarities are still striking: We're both often caught up in the latest
fads, the "cool" stuff, what the fanboys are interested in, who got funded,
who met with whom, who knows whom, where everyone's hanging out, etc., etc.,
etc. There are days when I come to Hacker News and have trouble finding a
single reference to the most important thing: our customers.

I became interested in building digital things because it was such an
incredibly cool way to provide for others. I still feel that way.

Whenever I start thinking about the "startup community" and all the details we
mistake for issues, it's no wonder people get depressed. Sometimes we just
lose our way.

But whenever I start thinking about my customers, what they need, why they
need it, and how cool it is to help them get it, it's almost impossible to get
depressed.

If you think you're getting depressed because of all the distracting details,
find someone who needs something, focus on them instead of yourself, and build
something.

Just a thought from an unqualified observer too busy and having too much fun
to get depressed.

~~~
tptacek
Suicidal depression rarely has anything to do with how much fun you're having.
It's an illness. You can't pushup your way out of cancer, jog your way out of
MS, and you can't fun your way out of real depression.

You make several good points, but let's not trivialize mental illness. I doubt
(a lot) that it's something endemic or "taboo" among startups, but any time we
can make any group of people more aware of the signs and symptoms of clinical
depression, let's do that.

(Lost several friends, one of them close, to suicide).

~~~
yummyfajitas
As far as I know, the standard treatment for depression is medication to
provide a short term fix (thereby convincing the patient that the therapist
can help) and cognitive behavioral therapy as a long term fix.

As I understand it, CBT is basically teaching the depressed person how to
"fun" (or stress manage/expectation manage) their way out of depression.

In any case, I believe the distinction between "illness" and "not an illness"
is usually not very important - it's usually an attempt to appeal to medical
authorities rather than address fundamentally social and ethical issues.

[http://lesswrong.com/lw/2as/diseased_thinking_dissolving_que...](http://lesswrong.com/lw/2as/diseased_thinking_dissolving_questions_about/)

~~~
billpatrianakos
I'm sorry but I take issue with your tone. I've been on around 4
antidepressants since reaching adulthood and I've dome (I'm still somewhat
still doing) CBT. I'm fine now without further treatment but while I was being
treated I must say that the pills work. Some more than others. Some people
need them forever and some don't. The point of taking them is to get you
motivated and just functional enough to start working out the cause. In my
case they gave me just enough energy to get slightly involved in a few things.
Those things then snowballed to the point where I didn't need the pills and
had other outlets. I still am prone to be depressed far easier and more often
than most but the treatment got me to a point where I have the tools lift
myself out of it each time despite the fact that depression really is totally
crippling and makes you believe there is no solution.

I still go to CBT though not often just because I really enjoy it and I get a
lot out of it. Even the therapist agrees I'd be fine without it but it makes
me happy so I go once or twice a month.

Depression _is_ an illness just like addiction or diabetes. I mention
addiction because that's another one people like to write off as a moral
failing or something that just isn't a real illness.

I could be misunderstanding your point but my experience tells me you're wrong
on this.

~~~
yummyfajitas
I'm sorry you dislike my tone. But do you disagree with any of the factual
claims I made? If so, which one?

From your comment, it sounds as if pills motivated you to try CBT, and then
you lifted yourself out of it (via fun or other methods). I.e., you underwent
the exact process I described - pills make you happier short term, therapist
taught you to solve your own problems long term.

I'm also glad that you've also discovered CBT is an enjoyable hobby.

 _Depression is an illness just like addiction or diabetes. I mention
addiction because that's another one people like to write off as a moral
failing or something that just isn't a real illness._

Why do you feel that being an illness and being a moral failing are mutually
exclusive?

Try reading the lesswrong link I posted. The gist of it is that the label
"disease" describes a collection of heterogeneous objects, and drawing
implications by analogy to some objects in the collection (e.g. cancer) can
give misleading results when applied to other objects in the collection (e.g.,
drug addiction).

Similarly, this claim is an example of the same logical fallacy: "A penguin is
a bird, just like a pigeon, therefore it can fly."

~~~
billpatrianakos
The thing I really didn't like was how you used the word "fun" as if to
minimize the seriousness of the problem. In fact, it came off to me as if you
were minimizing the seriousness of depression in general. I could have just
taken it that way without you meaning it like that.

Your comment about pills also came off as if to say its not a valid solution.
Like maybe pills are somehow for the weak or lazy.

Honestly, I just really detected a lot of snark in that comment and in this
one and I don't know why. You just called my participation in CBT "an
enjoyable hobby" like a backhanded compliment. I wouldn't call it a hobby at
all.

Maybe if you want to get technical and argue semantics a moral failing and
disease may not be mutually exclusive. But we're talking about the real world.
As it applies to depression and addiction, disease and moral failing _are_
mutually exclusive. People are looked down upon and carry a stigma because so
many people want to call it a moral failing. They say "just snap out of it"
for depression and they call addicts weak people when the reality is so far
from being so black and white.

Everyone can pull out studies to discredit the other guy's study that he
pulled out. Let's be real when we talk about this stuff and not hide behind
studies. Researchers disagree all the time so the best we can do is use our
own experience, best judgement, and widely accepted truths to argue our
points.

At the end of the day I took less issue with your facts than your ton. It just
sounded demeaning and like you were minimizing the seriousness of this stuff.
Plus there was a bit of snark detected. I don't think I was the only one
either. That's all, this isn't a personal attack, man. Correct me if I'm
wrong.

~~~
cop359
It seems you're being overly sensitive.

I don't really know what you mean by moral failing. To morally failyou have to
start doing something that is immoral, like killing kitten or something

Just out of curiosity (I don't really know what the answer is because I don't
have depression), but do you think it's impossible for a person to become
depressed due to being weak or having a weak character?

Could for example being a loser make your life difficult and lead to
depression?

Now I understand "loser" is kind of a meaningless term, but I'm just using it
as an illustrative example.

Say for a particular set of reasons (having to due with your
character/personality) everyone around you always teases you. Couldn't that
lead to depression; and if you were that kind of person, wouldn't addressing
what makes you a "loser" be the correct way ultimately to deal with your
depression.

Or is depression never caused by problems with one's own
personality/character?

~~~
drumdance
Never? No. And sometimes Type 2 diabetes is caused or exacerbated by bad life
choices. But no one denies that the symptoms are real.

------
tsunamifury
I work a full time job and am a small time weekend entrepreneur. I work with
one other partner at a distance and developers half way around the world.

I find it is very easy to slip into crippling depressions for a few reasons:

1) Working after you get home from work is exciting at first, then very
quickly becomes grueling and exhausting

2) Every time you take time off after work you begin to feel guilty and start
assigning all free time guilt because you should be working on your startup

3) You are constantly aware that when you work alone, or mostly alone, your
work can easily trail in scope and head in a useless direction. There is no
one to check this for you.

4) You have to be everything, your own marketer, designer, UX/UI dev, product
testing, QA not to mention planing and ideation for product features.

These all add up to really, biting off more than I can chew, which in itself
is probably the cause of a lot of depression -- the sense of an insurmountable
task.

Not sure the best way to combat that.

~~~
kerryfalk
Use it to your advantage. Seriously.

I have been there, several times now. Each time I learn a little more and each
time I come away more effective. I've found that when it gets really tight and
overwhelming by simply not giving up you begin to notice the things that are
critically important and that need to get done and the things that are just
nice to have.

In the end when you start noticing these things and get the important tasks
done and let the non-important ones slide it feels pretty good.

I still struggle with #2 though. It often feels like no one else I know ever
feels that same guilt. The only solution I've come up with so far is if I'm
doing something that isn't work then it needs to feel like I'm not wasting
time. For some reason I don't really understand yet playing golf doesn't feel
like I'm wasting time. Maybe because it's a solo sport and for me it's
competitive? I don't know. It helps though.

Edit: To acknowledge the spirit of this thread I am not suggesting a depressed
person push through and use the stress to their advantage. This is advice for
someone who is not depressed. I do know what depression is like, and if you're
depressed and experiencing the above then I don't think it's possible to make
it through. Acknowledge your mental state (Very hard to do, talk with other
people, seek help) and come back later.

~~~
tsunamifury
Your comment identifies that my above comments aren't really depression --
more of a dissapointing lull, and should not be confused with a real clinical
level of depression which I'm not sure I've ever experienced.

~~~
kerryfalk
I can only speak from my own experience. Taking that into account from the
points you identified that is not depression, rather a state of being knocked
down and overwhelmed. Something that in my experience you can push through and
learn from.

Depression is different. The best way I can explain it is if you've ever
experienced the kind of euphoria associated with a deep connection with
someone else. Not just lust but a deep connection or love - depression is the
exact opposite of that and just as powerful.

Unlike being in love, you may not know if you're actually depressed or just
experiencing what I have taken your points to be as a state of being knocked
down.

------
leelin
I'll admit I'm never a huge fan of other founders asking me how my startup is
going as a conversation starter. There are often three scenarios:

1.) Nothing new or exciting has happened since last time, in which case I feel
pretty crappy.

2.) Something cool has happened, but I don't feel particularly boastful nor do
I want to get into a long discussion of why that thing is cool.

3.) Something very amazing has happened, but I'm actually not allowed to talk
about it.

I do notice when I return the question, I almost always hear the answer this
article suggests ("awesome, best month ever, crushing it"). I guess that's why
people always gave me funny looks when I used to give an honest assessment.

Now I just always answer, "Good good, we're pretty close to (some lofty
feature or pseudo-pivot that is months away)". It's a convenient way to change
the subject. Keep in mind this primarily applies to casual meetups with people
I see regularly every 1-3 months but don't consider close friends.

~~~
dlikhten
2) To combat this, I make sure my partner shows off his stuff to me all the
time, and vice versa. Sometimes just showing someone who understands that
something is cool and getting just some truthful criticism is really
encouraging. If my partner builds something cool, even if I can figure it
out... "show me".

1) If nothing exciting happens, I try to talk about something good happening
in their life, try to keep focused on the happy part of your life vs the
frustrating/hard part to keep spirits up.

3) You can always talk about it with your partner. Or. You can talk about it,
with friends. Its good to have a friend who is willing to sit there and listen
even if they don't fully get it and you know they won't backstab you.

------
wheels
So, being pedantic, is Diaspora even a startup? I've thought of it more as an
open source project. And even if we're willing to label it a startup, why jump
to the conclusion that doing a startup was the trigger? Couldn't it just as
easily be a breakup, family problems, various emotional issues, etcetera? Why
do we assume that the incidence of depression and suicide is higher among
founders than non-founders?

I don't mean to trivialize the interplay, often strong, between emotions and
work, but we're making a lot of assumptions here that as far as I'm aware are
unfounded.

~~~
adbge

        1. Life as a founder is often incredibly stressful.
        2. Prolonged periods of stress exacerbate/cause mental illness.
    

If you agree with both of those statements, the logical conclusion is that
incidence of mental health related problems is likely higher among founders
than the general population. At any rate, talking about these issues is of
some value regardless.

~~~
billpatrianakos
I agree with those statements but the incidence of mental health problems
isn't necessarily higher among founders because it. Being a founder (a real
founder, not just an idea man with no execution) takes a special kind of
person. These people seem to be able to handle the lifestyle and the stresses
involved better than the general population. I wouldn't say they're immune but
I'd say their ability to execute on a great idea and even be marginally
successful at it puts them a cut above the rest.

So maybe we can safely say that founders are more likely to be at risk while
at the same time saying that they don't succumb to depression in as high of
numbers as other groups would despite that risk. I'd add to that lime of
thought by saying depression is still far more common than we realize as it
just isn't talked about so it doesn't show up on our radar.

------
tmugavero
It seems like the bigger problem may be denial. I don't think depression is
unique to entrepreneurs. Just living in NYC brings an exceptional set of
challenges for someone to overcome (The article tells stories from NYC). For
start-ups though, constantly having to put on a pretty face for everyone
(employees, investors, clients, customers, friends and family) and deny the
fact that you're a total mess on the inside technology-wise, business-wise and
personally is the root of the problem. It creates incredible pressure, and if
you can't live up to all the beauty you say you have, it makes you feel sad,
angry, frustrated, and lost. Throw in not eating properly, not exercising, and
not getting enough sleep and you have a recipe for depression. If we could
just talk about how messed up everything is, we might find that we aren't the
only ones and feel better about it. I'm a founder in NYC, so if anyone wants
to talk, hit me up!

------
tptacek
This is an article whose lede is about a 22 year old killing himself, with a
lolcat title ("U CANT HAZ SADZ"). I stopped reading right there. Can anyone
summarize?

~~~
swombat
"Depression is a taboo subject in the startup scene, despite being very
common. Be aware that it's common, don't be surprised when it hits you, and do
something about it (and be sympathetic to those other founders who are
depressed)."

~~~
tptacek
Is it really taboo, or is this just the simplest framing for a trend story now
that a writer at BetaBeat has heard two stories about startup founders killing
themselves?

~~~
swombat
There is certainly a chest-thumping habit in the startup world. 90% of the
startups you speak to in any meetup are probably doing dismally, but you'll
almost never hear them say anything negative until they suddenly fold and
start doing something else.

"How's it going?"

"Great! Our user base is growing, and they love the product, and blah blah
blah"

 _6 months later_

"Oh, you're doing something else?"

"Yeah, it worked well, but it wasn't successful enough." (or, if they're more
honest, "Our users loved us but we were making about $100 a month of
turnover")

------
dangero
I think what's happening is that all the positive spin about why you should
make a startup are just drowning out the negatives, and this makes sense. I
work for a company that makes over 100 million a year and one of the founders
told me that if he knew how much work starting the company would be, he
wouldn't have done it. There is a part of being an entrepreneur that is about
ignoring the negatives. It's a very Han Solo, "Never tell me the odds" kind of
thing.

I spent the first 3 years post college using all my free time in a new city
trying to bootstrap my startup by myself at home in front of a computer almost
every night and weekend after my day job. Luckily I met my now wife along the
way which helped keep me motivated and gave me someone to talk to. I didn't
really feel I had time to make any other friends. My business succeeded and
survived, but depression was probably the biggest obstacle. It will absolutely
crush your motivation, and when you get unmotivated, you see the project
stagnate which pushes you even deeper into a lack of motivation, burnout, and
depression. I felt I was really all alone in it. My now wife even stopped
being supportive after a couple years of no profits. She's not really someone
who has the same passion for entrepreneurship, so she just saw me spending all
my time on something that had gone nowhere, getting depressed, having no
social life. She was right to be concerned. This probably has something to do
with why co-founders are recommended. If someone would have been on the
journey along with me it would have made it so much easier, but I went it
alone because at the start I didn't feel I had enough skills to offer anyone
legitimate as a co-founder, and at the same time, I didn't want to partner up
with a friend who wasn't really interested in sticking it out through years of
after-work bootstrapping and no profits while we learned.

Right now I'm embarking on a new startup, but I'm doing many things
differently. It's important to understand yourself. The last 2 years I've
worked hard at making close friends in the area where I live. I need to keep
those friendships healthy even if it means less time working on the startup.
Secondly, I work out at least twice a week. Again, both of these take away
from my startup since I still have a day job too, but they are absolutely
crucial and I've come to realize that 4 hours of healthy motivated time is
better than 16 of depressed unmotivated time.

------
borski
Honestly, the hardest thing about running a company is that you have to be a
cynical bastard and a rosy-cheeked optimist at the same time. Juggling those
two paradigms of viewing the world is harder than anything else I've ever
done.

Improving your product almost requires cynicism, since you have to view what
isn't good enough; but you have to be able to stay optimistic and know you're
going to get "there" someday. Otherwise, you get depressed and feel massively
alone.

That is the dichotomy.

------
DanBC
Talking about mental health problems is important. Some of them commonly start
around the early twenties; stress[1] can be a trigger; having "rainy day
action plans" can be immensely helpful making any times of illness much less
disruptive to the sufferer.

Knowledge helps people around the person too -- knowing that pulling someone
aside and just talking to them about their feelings is a good, helpful, thing
could save lives. Knowing that this person has a disorder that makes them
incredibly effective for a few months but that comes with a risk of "crashing"
allows them to put support in and encourage taking of meds or contct with
professionals.

In the UK employers are not allowed[2] to discriminate against people with
mental health problems, so knowledge is again really useful.

[1] "Stress" means slightly different things to different people. I tend to
use it for unhealthy harmful stress, and "pressure" for the stuff that people
enjoy and thrive on. Pressure for one person could be stress for another.

[2] I guess there's some exceptions.

------
marquis
Is this particularly endemic to start-up culture? University was also
extremely demanding and brought many people to their knees. And while on the
one hand, you may work harder than you ever had in your life, you are working
for yourself, your own goals. There is a liberation in that (I can certainly
speak for myself - to be reminded that every drop of effort I'm putting in is
for my own forward movement keeps it going).

I hope those who are young and just learning how hard they can push themselves
have a mentor. I owe mine a million thanks a thousand times over.

~~~
mechanical_fish
_Is this particularly endemic to start-up culture?_

On the one hand, no. Depression is very common and strikes everywhere.

On the other hand, startup culture does make it unusually difficult to cope
with depression. There's a cult of very long hours and complete focus on work,
which is a recipe for burnout. Most startups need every employee to be a
marketing face of the company – which generally involves a constant projection
of optimism and energy, and which in the era of Twitter can require you to
keep your game face on 24/7.

Speaking of Twitter: Software startups are the first and most energetic
adopters of the internet, the social structure of the internet is not (yet?)
well designed – it is still early in its history – and frankly the internet is
not an emotionally healthy environment. It's a fishbowl the size of the
planet. There are all kinds of things that none of us are comfortable
discussing in public, mental health is right there on the top of that list (in
American culture, at any rate), and there is nothing more public than the
internet.

University is a far less scary environment. There's rituals and schedules.
There is, believe it or not, less time pressure. There are lots of peers who
are easy to interact with _in person_. There's restaurants and bars and
student unions and clubs and sports and hobbies. There's professional
counseling. There's bailout options (you can drop classes, petition for
pass/fail status, take leaves of absence). Most important of all, there's less
of the culture of relentless optimism. People _expect_ students to get into
funks now and then. Everyone knows that sophomores spend hours having crazy
philosophical discussions at three in the morning. The Ph.D. is practically
_basic training_ in depression-management techniques. Everyone knows that grad
students spend evenings sitting around sipping microbrews and moaning about
their advisers; back at Cornell they had a T-shirt: DON'T ASK ME ABOUT MY
THESIS.

~~~
mgkimsal
No one is giving a student $4,000,000 and expecting it to be $40,000,000
within 3 years either.

------
ams6110
Likely some useful insight to be found in the military. The "loneliness of
command" is not exactly a new phenomenon.

~~~
presidentender
Loneliness of Command is a very different sort of pressure.

------
coopr
One thing that exacerbates my startup depression (yep, I've got it too) is the
fiscal pressure of being a founder - even if I stick with founding startups
for many years, and do so many times, the odds are that I'll end up with
significantly less wealth than if I just got a "real job".

The #1 reason for this is that investors require that founders "stay hungry"
(aka get paid less than market compensation). Couple that with the periods of
getting paid nothing (before you raised money, and when you are in-between
startups) and the very low likelihood of a significant exit (thus all those
founders shares are usually worth $0) and the result is one more thing to be
depressed about; the fact that you are working your ass off, and being mostly
miserable, without getting paid for it.

------
andrewingram
Speaking from my own own experiences, I wouldn't class depression as a
disease, but as a disorder (wikipedia seems to agree).

I would describe it as having a heavy inertia towards negative thoughts and
feelings of hopelessness. It's totally possible to have moments of happiness,
be cheerful etc, but these moments are fleeting because they take such
considerable effort to maintain. It's even more effort to force yourself into
a good mood, and part of the problem is that you don't actually want to.

Whilst I'm skeptical about the efficacy of anti-depressants, I would say the
effect I've (subjectively) noticed is to decrease this inertia to the extent
that it's easier to have good moments. They don't actually make you happier,
they just make it easier for other methods to work, eg CBT or Meditation.

With regards to startup depression. I'd be very surprised if it's something
that affects everyone, but there are certainly people who aren't currently
depressed whom have character traits that would trigger depression in a
startup environment. These people are typically over-invested in outcomes, or
tie their ego up with their successes.

My advice to anyone considering joining a startup would be to honestly assess
themselves and work out whether they have some of the traits that would put
them at risk of depression. Then tackle them before getting involved, almost
all the lessons I've learned from books and therapists are applicable in some
way to everyone, not just those with depression.

------
tryitnow
I treat mental illness like I treat, race, gender, and other "sensitive"
issues. Honestly, outside of my personal experience, I don't understand and
probably won't ever understand the subjective experience of another.

So I try my best to listen. I don't always succeed, but I do understand that
listening is the first step.

------
EREFUNDO
you'll be surprised how much exercise, sports, meditation, or spending a
little bit of time doing something unrelated to your project can help a lot.
Unless it's really clinically severe anyone should do their best to avoid
anti-depressants.

------
krausejj
great article. founders need to read this - launching something new is such an
emotional rollercoaster and the incredible highs can be matched by devastating
lows.

any startup involves visualizing a future that doesn't yet exist, and the path
to trying to reach that version of the future is always more difficult than it
seems. most startups fail and this is depressing for the people who invest
their lives into them... we should step away from being cerebral coders
sometimes and just accept the emotional stress we come under when we try to
change the world!

------
nikcub
we should bring this up at the next startup community meeting

------
dextorious
Well, depression in this context doesn't surprise me.

I think of the "Let's build a company to sell and retire" startup as an
attempt, in desperation, to avoid the rat race, by working your ass and some
of your best years away, with extreme pressure and slim chances of success.

We only get to here the success stories, 99% of the time, though, which makes
it seem much more glamorous.

I much prefer the building of a sustainable business a la "37 Signals", or
failing that a series of good paying / sensible time jobs working in
interesting problems.

Come to think of it, most of the hackers I respect most weren't at all
"entrepreneurial", some were in academia and others worked in companies, from
Brian & Richie, to JWZ, to Knuth, to Guido, etc.

And I don't have much respect for the "successes" in the startup sense, like
Zuckenberg et al, nor I think Facebook, or Groupon, or Spotify (or whatever
the flavor of the day is) as "changing the world". Tim Berners Lee changed the
world from a small office at CERN. Mosaic/Mozilla also changed the world. The
IBM PC and the Mac changed the world.

Overhyped IPOs and social networks? Not so much. (And don't get me started on
the overselling of western media of the supposed role Twitter et al played in
Middle Eastern riots/revolutions).

~~~
drumdance
I prefer the 37 Signals approach as an ideal, but it's still a lot of hard
work and frequent disappointment. As far as I recall I've never seen anyone at
37 Signals acknowledge that. They make it sound like it's a nitgts & weekend
thing that will take off based on design alone.

~~~
dextorious
Well, there's always the fact that it took them several years to gradually get
to where they are now, including a couple of years of hard work in the
beginning that weren't even visible.

------
zackattack
These sorts of pressures are the reason that I made
<http://www.CompassionPit.com> \- a site where you can chat anonymously, 1-1,
with someone who will listen to you. Just join as a venter. Or, if you're
feeling charitable, join as a listener. "Get it off your chest without it
biting you in the ass".

