
Amazon will stop sales of used first-party Nintendo products starting November 1 - danso
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2019/10/amazon-no-more-third-party-sales-of-nintendo-products-without-approval/
======
jedberg
The sentiment here seems to be fairly negative, which is surprising, because
Amazon is doing exactly what we've been asking them to do for ages -- policing
their marketplace against counterfeit products.

They're starting with the easiest things to police, but at least they are
making an effort. It really sucks for the legit third party sellers, so
hopefully they make the approval process easy for them so they can continue to
sell their legit hardware.

~~~
wongarsu
What people were asking was "make it obvious who I'm buying from (i.e. no
commingling), and punish sellers of counterfeits". Just punishing sellers of
counterfeits goods might have been enough (reportedly Amazon does have item
level tracking despite commingling).

What Amazon is doing sounds more like stopping to be an open marketplace,
depending on how hard it is to get approved. That's a solution, but at that
point they are just another Target or Wal-Mart.

~~~
turc1656
As an Amazon seller, I can confirm that they have tracking linked to each
seller. Their system does this via their FNSKU (fullfillment network stock
keeping unit) and that is unique to each seller for each product. So if I want
to sell a product, that product has an ASIN that defines it specifically and
then any seller in the Amazon system that wants to sell that product needs
their own FNSKU that applies only to that ASIN. Those FNSKUs are tagged on the
items. If you've ever bought third party stuff on Amazon, the numbers are also
10 digits long just like ASINs but they usually begin with an X. FNSKUs can
also match the ASIN and that is usually given to the seller that creates the
listing so that seller has FNSKU=ASIN. So if you buy private label stuff that
is their own branded stuff that no one else sells, it just looks like the ASIN
and you probably ignored it. But if you buy a big brand name product like
Nintendo, Star Wars, or anything with multiple sellers that sell via
FBA/prime, you'll probably see the FNSKU beginning with X.

EDIT - in case it wasn't obvious, Amazon uses the FNSKU barcode for
fullfilling their orders. They might have 10 sellers with the same ASIN in
that specific warehouse, so the Amazon employees fullfill via FNSKU in those
cases, which is why they would require the FBA/prime items in their warehouse
to be tagged with the FNSKU to identify which seller owns that exact item vs
all the others that also have stock in that warehouse and perhaps even in that
exact same shelf/bin.

~~~
rashkov
Apologies if I’m misunderstanding, but are you implying that amazon doesn’t
commingle products? Allegedly this is the reason that you can order a “sold by
amazon” product but still receive a counterfeit item (likely provides by a 3rd
party seller).

~~~
wongarsu
No, when they get the product shipped in they stick a seller-specific label on
it, then commingle it. When I order an Xbox an employee goes to the Xbox bin,
picks any of them and scans it out of the system. Amazon now knows which one I
got and where it came from, because the barcode identifies it as originating
from seller X. If I complain to Amazon or send it back they can now look up
what they shipped me and see if some seller consistently ships them bad
product.

In essence commingling prevents you from efficiently grabbing something from a
specific seller, but it doesn't prevent you from knowing which one you
grabbed.

~~~
jjeaff
Is this a new change? Because previously, you could label your own commingled
products and the label was simply the UPC code.

~~~
bootlooped
I think all FBA items have had an FNSKU for at least 7 years.

~~~
beerandt
But optional, right?

------
ikeboy
>. Included in this move are DVDs and Apple products, which now require
similar approval processes to move forward.

This is incorrect. You can get approval in DVDs pretty easily if you have
invoices from a distributor. It's effectively impossible to get approval for
Apple unless you're one of a dozen or so authorized sellers that spends 8-9
figures with Apple yearly. (The official requirements to get approval for
refurbished Apple on Amazon is 2.5 million in invoices over 90 days).

It's not clear how the approval process for Nintendo will work, but if this is
like most brands, all you'll need is invoices from a distributor. Many brands
have this kind of restriction. It's nothing at all like the Apple deal, for
which you can't get approval just with invoices, and for which there was a
special announcement from Amazon; the Nintendo email isn't special, it's
standard (google phrases from it and you'll find many other brands with
similar emails from Amazon). E.g.
[https://sellercentral.amazon.com/forums/t/marvel-
warning/407...](https://sellercentral.amazon.com/forums/t/marvel-
warning/407578), [https://sellercentral.amazon.com/forums/t/dc-comic-
restricti...](https://sellercentral.amazon.com/forums/t/dc-comic-
restriction/329913)

Also, the email makes no mention of used vs new. All Nintendo are now
restricted regardless of condition.

Also, this is seller-specific. Many sellers can still sell; most likely Amazon
targeted this towards the sellers their algo determined were more suspicious
for whatever reason. See e.g. [https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-
listing/B07VGRJDFY/ref=olp_f...](https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-
listing/B07VGRJDFY/ref=olp_f_used?ie=UTF8&f_usedAcceptable=true&f_usedGood=true&f_used=true&f_usedLikeNew=true&f_usedVeryGood=true)

~~~
rwmurrayVT
I didn't find it "easy" to get approved for DVDs. I had over 20k a month in
used media sales for over 12 months and still got rejected. The worst part is
that you can buy the media, ask for approval, and then get stuck with the
inventory. On top of that what you buy from a distributor will never make you
any money. It's all in the used items so you hope to make it up by selling
DVDs you buy for a dollar at library sales, etc.

~~~
colejohnson66
Have you tried eBay?

~~~
rwmurrayVT
It just doesn't have the ease of FBA. We were primarily used book sellers and
occasional video games. Unfortunately, while I was incarcerated my partner
blew up the business.

------
ilamont
There is a problem with pirated Nintendo games showing up in the unpoliced
Amazon third party seller marketplace. I don't know how big the problem is,
but it's there (as I can personally attest, and as the article describes).
Unlike the source cited the article, the bootleg I purchased for my son didn't
"play fine."

~~~
dylz
It isn't just pirated games/getting fake carts, I've ordered things like a
"genuine" GBA, GBC, and gotten fully counterfeit hardware instead of a used
old device. Nearly a 100% counterfeit rate on certain lines of product (one
example is
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W39bZDu6zA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W39bZDu6zA))

~~~
behringer
And out of region stuff. I ordered a 3ds game brand new, I wanted to try to
get a club code so I ordered one that looked like it would be new old stock,
ended up getting a 3ds game intended for sale in Saudi Arabia.

Returned it and just bought it locally instead. Amazon is pretty much a
wasteland for collectors. Ebay is far better and more reliable overall.

~~~
PhasmaFelis
> _Returned it and just bought it locally instead. Amazon is pretty much a
> wasteland for collectors. Ebay is far better and more reliable overall._

And also, somehow, much lower-priced for the most part.

For out-of-print but popular and relatively recent toys and books, I've often
found things for half the price or less on eBay than what Amazon is pushing.
Now that Buy It Now is common and I don't have to mess with the auction
system, it's my first choice for stuff like that.

------
hprotagonist
How is this going to play out, legally? First-sale doctrine has been rather
firmly upheld by the courts:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirtsaeng_v._John_Wiley_%26_So...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirtsaeng_v._John_Wiley_%26_Sons,_Inc).

~~~
magduf
I don't see what first-sale doctrine has to do with this: Amazon is a private
(publicly-held) company and is free to disallow certain products from being
sold on its site.

First-sale doctrine means you're free to take your used Nintendo cartridges
and set up a table on the sidewalk (subject to local laws about street sellers
of course) and sell them to passers-by. Amazon doesn't have to provide you a
venue for selling them.

Personally, I don't understand why anyone would want to sell older Nintendo
gear on Amazon anyway. This is exactly what eBay is for. eBay's fees are
probably a little lower too.

~~~
thaumasiotes
> Personally, I don't understand why anyone would want to sell older Nintendo
> gear on Amazon anyway. This is exactly what eBay is for.

Because the customers are on Amazon, not eBay.

~~~
dawnerd
FYI buyers on are eBay too, esp. for vintage games.

~~~
thaumasiotes
I am confident that the reason I gave is an accurate answer to the question I
gave it in response to, for at least a very large share of sellers. Note that
you can do something for a given reason regardless of whether that reason is
true.

However, the fact that it's possible to run a business doing nothing but
selling things on Amazon that you buy on eBay when an order comes in strongly
suggests that the customers really are on Amazon and not on eBay.

~~~
yowlingcat
Interesting. I've long suspected the dropship arbitrageurs had existed on
Amazon for a while, but I thought they had long since become unprofitable, or
at least this Amazon to eBay channel had. Could you go into more detail about
this? I'm sorta curious about how big the market is.

~~~
dawnerd
It’s fairly common. I sell a lot on eBay and get maybe an order a week with a
message of “do not include invoice, item is a gift” which is dumb since we all
know they’r drop shipping. I love it, never have a problem with those buyers.
But I do include thank you cards in them with my eBay stores.

------
wgerard
> This decision seems to imply that either Nintendo or Amazon would rather
> limit all used sales of Nintendo products than build a more focused list of
> scrutinized software and products.

Seems like probably both, no?

> Users on the used-Nintendo forum thread have postulated that counterfeit
> retro Nintendo cartridges have been an open secret among Amazon sellers for
> some time.

I'm guessing Nintendo isn't too happy about this (in general they seem very
concerned about their brand) and Amazon is likely happy to stem some of the
negative backlash about counterfeit goods on their platform.

I'm not surprised to see that Apple products are likely to fall under this
umbrella - another company very concerned about their brand.

~~~
wlesieutre
I wonder if Apple's special deal is related to this lawsuit

[https://www.theverge.com/2016/10/20/13343682/fake-apple-
char...](https://www.theverge.com/2016/10/20/13343682/fake-apple-chargers-
amazon-lawsuit)

(note: they sued the 3rd party sellers, not Amazon)

~~~
ikeboy
Nope. Plenty of brands have sued sellers, but few get that kind of treatment.
Otterbox, Skullcandy, Standard Process, Popsocket, ecobee, The Noco Company,
Prevagen, Rainbow Light have all sued Amazon sellers.

------
drewrem11
Amazon now says the email sent to the third-party dealers was in error

[https://www.pcmag.com/news/371708/amazon-dealers-need-
approv...](https://www.pcmag.com/news/371708/amazon-dealers-need-approval-to-
sell-used-nintendo-games)

------
cik
This is the sort of chilling effect that increased corporatization of society
can have - but doesn't necessarily have to. Forbidding the sale of legal
items, is a form of increased censorship, one society seems to be okay with.

~~~
root_axis
This type of rhetoric is very frustrating to me. It seems the word censorship
has lost all meaning.

~~~
eropple
It is a tactic. This conflation allows easier confusion of corporate interests
and societal ones. And by rendering it so meaningless, it makes identifying
and protesting against actual censorship harder and recognizing "we're mad
they won't platform our garbage" also harder.

At the moment it is still intentional and usually malicious. The danger comes
when it is inculcated and we lose the real understanding entirely.

------
cptaj
Alternate title: Amazon destroys the livelihood of thousands of merchants
without process or appeal.

~~~
14
I see this time and time again here on HN. If your livelihood is dependent on
another persons platform you are in a very dangerous position. At any moment
the terms of use could be changed or they could decide they want to sell the
same business you are selling and you are out of luck. In this instance this
is a crappy deal and I don't like it and people will buy from other markets.

~~~
ikeboy
That's what happens when Amazon has a monopoly. Many customers will only look
on Amazon and won't buy anywhere else.

~~~
briffle
Back in 2003, people were saying the same thing about walmart. This article
talks about how the demand for 'lower prices' almost drove a pickle company
out of business:

[https://www.fastcompany.com/47593/wal-mart-you-dont-
know](https://www.fastcompany.com/47593/wal-mart-you-dont-know)

~~~
ikeboy
Yes, Amazon is doing a lot of the same things that Walmart did back in the
day.

------
naringas
alternatively headline: Amazon takes drastic measures to stop sale of
counterfeit Nintendo products

------
jchw
Can the headline be fixed? It’s currently stating Amazon will stop the sale of
Nintendo products. Absolutely not at all what the actual headline is saying.

> Amazon: No more third-party sales of “Nintendo products” without approval

------
the_watcher
It seems like this is pretty obviously what Nintendo would prefer, and can
probably put it in their terms of service. It would shock me if this weren't
being driven by Nintendo, much more so than Amazon.

~~~
chaostheory
This makes sense. Another issue with counterfeits is that many consumers are
unable to recognize them. Instead they'll think it's just a defective product
and waste Nintendo customer service's time.

------
syspec
Actual headline is:

Amazon: No more third-party sales of “Nintendo products” without approval

------
jordangoldstein
What I don't understand is why would Nintendo/Amazon care if people sold
things Nintendo were no longer manufacturing? It doesn't seem logical to
prevent counterfeiting by preventing all items from being sold on the
platform. I'm talking about out of print products only. So much for the
"everything store"...

~~~
ikeboy
It takes effort to segregate products like that, and Amazon doesn't want to
put in that effort. For most brands the approval decision is across the entire
brand, not individual items. On a handful of items they do have item specific
approvals but those are more expensive for Amazon to enforce.

~~~
jordangoldstein
How hard is it to request a list from Nintendo on what products they are
currently manufacturing? They can create a policy were they only gate products
those companies are currently selling. We are talking about millions of
dollars for this brand only. If this continues to happen across the platform
it can amount to billions of dollars of lost sales. Also Amazon would much
rather take a cut from a third party seller (regardless if that seller makes
money or not) versus sell it themselves.

------
ikeboy
[https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/1/20943772/amazon-
marketpla...](https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/1/20943772/amazon-marketplace-
nintendo-deal-used-retro-games-consoles-counterfeit)

Turns out it was all a mistake.

------
secabeen
Amazon did this for canon equipment some time back. I used to sell my older
cameras and lenses on Amazon as used items; I'm not allowed to any more. It's
too bad, but it just pushed me back to eBay, which has been perfectly fine,
for the limited number of sales I've done.

------
maerF0x0
IMO this is ok. Ebay has long been a better platform for these kinds of
transactions.

------
fullstop
I misread the headline and thought that they were no longer selling first-
party nintendo products and that it was a horrible decision.

No, this is a superb decision and I wish that they would do it with other
products.

------
RenRav
Ebay is still great for used goods, most rare and lucky finds seem to come
from random listings made by normal people. Amazon never seemed friendly for
small first time sellers.

------
diogenescynic
Why is the headline changed from "third-party" to "first-party"? It
fundamentally changes the story...

------
themagician
Amazon needs to do this for everything. The quality control problem with
Amazon is out of control.

------
Cyder
Ebay baby... I'm coming home...

------
r00fus
I've noticed I can't buy many Kirkland brand products on Amazon either.

------
tanilama
Nice. One step towards the right direction.

------
ct0
What about amazon warehouse?

~~~
CamelCaseName
Warehouse Deals is just returned / damaged products. If someone returns a
replica game cart to Amazon, it will likely end up being resold as authentic.

Unfortunately there's no real control here, but it's the same as any physical
store. Cashiers are not counterfeiting specialists and scammers are crafty.
Some will even shrink wrap and return an empty case. Ideally you would be able
to track issues with the sale of returned products back to a single
"customer", but not before several people are forced to return
fake/nonexistent products.

------
dang
We changed the URL from
[https://reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/dprlaw/amazon_will_stop...](https://reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/dprlaw/amazon_will_stop_allowing_the_sale_of_used/)
to an article which adds a bit more background.

