
Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes - akandiah
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22751415
======
RyanMcGreal
Now this is my kind of nanny state. A thought:

This program started for low-income families but was extended after a few
years to all families. The nice thing about universality rather than means
testing is that a) middle class families are more apt to continue supporting
it if they can experience its benefits first-hand; b) you save the money that
would otherwise be spent testing, enforcing and auditing the system; and c) it
builds solidarity and shared values rather than socioeconomic conflict and
what I've come to regard as _revenge egalitarianism_.

~~~
at-fates-hands
This is a great idea, until you remember Finland has a population of about 5
million. LA itself has a population of almost 4 million.

While I think this a great idea, it's pretty easy to do with such a small
population. Once you start talking about a scale the size of the US, it gets
rather spendy in a hurry.

~~~
eru
Why don't they chop up the US in 60 Finland sized bits, if it's so much easier
to have success in a small country?

~~~
samatman
I have to assume this was sarcasm, but they're called states, and many
Americans would like to see them regain power relative to the Federal
government.

A baby box is the kind of thing California would do, if we weren't broke like
everyone else. Though, California alone exceeds the population of all Nordic
countries combined.

------
ProcessBlue
Lovely article. However, I must say that the box is only the tip of the
iceberg. It's been almost four years since we went through the gauntlet so my
memory may be a bit fuzzy but if I remember correctly the FREE tier of forming
babby in Finland includes:

\- Initially monthly (increaing to weekly) pre-natal checkups that include
bloodwork, metabolism tests, ultrasounds and any treatments necessary to
ensure the baby's and mother's health.

\- About 12 hours of parental training which I found surprisingly useful
(containing none of the Lamaze class stereotypes I had been expecting). Also,
our group of people contained an absolutely adorable teenage couple, everybody
else was in their late twenties to mid thirties.

\- The whole "actual business". Now this bit we did have to pay for, about $80
per day that we stayed in one of the maternity ward's private rooms with full
room service.

\- First weekly and later monthly post natal checkups (also for the mom)
including vaccinations. At two years the schedule switches to annual checkups
and starts including dental chaeckups. At some point during the first months a
doctor actually visits your home to check up on how you are dealing with the
whole situation. If there are clear indicators of problems (e.g. alcoholism)
the doc can point you in the direction for help.

\- You start getting about $150/month from the state for the baby (until it is
18 years old), this is about half of the cost of municpal daycare. In addition
to this you get financial support during (m|p)aternity leave (the amount is
actually scaled based on your salary). Maternity leave is about 100 days,
paternity leave is about 50 days and on top of that you are entitled to 160
days of parental leave (either mom or dad can take this). Your place of
employment can get state compensation if they decide to pay you a full salaray
during your leave. Then there is a general child care leave than can extend to
three years, it gets nitty gritty with the bureaucracy of compensations but
effectively it is possible to take care of your kid for the first three years
and still have your old job back when you're done. In our circle of friends
there are at least a couple of "career women" who have checked out for ~5
years to have two kids and successfully gotten back into the game.

So yeah, the box is nice but it is only the icing on the fabulous cake that is
having a baby in Finland :-).

~~~
jan_g
It is worth noting that all this is not free, but paid for by the tax payer.
Many European countries have similar arrangements.

Personally, I think all this is money well spent by the governments as it
gives nice financial boost to young parents and a sense that someone/something
cares about them and their baby.

~~~
mikeash
Why exactly is this worth noting?

Nobody jumps to point out that there's still somebody paying for the "free"
tiers of Dropbox or GitHub or whatever. Yet the moment somebody mentions a
"free" social program, people suddenly have to hammer on the point that
_somebody_ pays for it.

We're not a bunch of imbeciles who think that social programs just rain from
the sky....

~~~
300bps
There are plenty of people that think the government has unlimited money and
should spend it on the people. These people don't know that it is literal
wealth transfer from one person to another with the government acting as
middle man. Sure, you may realize that this is the case but many people don't.

It's the same mentality that leads people to believe that insurance companies
should pay for everything until they realize that it is other insurance
company customers (including thenselves) that actually foot the bill for it.

~~~
mikeash
Do any of those people post on HN?

~~~
ceol
Or exist, for that matter?

~~~
protomyth
If you ever have the misfortune to work near or in social services, then you
realize yes they exist and are not an urban myth. Sadly, some government
programs encourage the behavior (e.g. "free" cellphones).

~~~
theorique
"Obama gave me a phone!"

------
pointyhats
They should do this in the UK. From observing the locals, the maternity grant
(until yanked by the government) was used to buy designer gear for the mother,
cigarettes and some expensive fashionable buggy for the baby (usually topped
up by the baby's grandparents).

Unfortunately essential stuff was forgotten.

This solves those problems.

~~~
oracuk
Could you publish a citation referencing these problems?

~~~
pointyhats
Stand outside ASDA in Feltham or Hounslow and observe.

~~~
peteretep
So, no?

~~~
pointyhats
Not everything needs citation in the form of a survey or scientific paper. I
doubt the results of it would be honest as the people who they would be
surveying have an interest in lying about the things they have purchased with
it.

Some things are blatantly obvious if you peel your eyes occasionally and
observe humanity.

~~~
alan_cx
No, but in the UK there is a wind of judgemental tabloid nastiness in this
area. Lies like this are made up daily, based on a very small minority, and
huge chunks of people are tarred with the same brush.

So, yeah, where is the research?

Well, there is none, because apart from tabloid smearing lies, there is none.

What is "obvious" is how nasty people are in the UK towards the poor working
classes, who are under constant attack.

~~~
pointyhats
And by making the distinction of working class are you not contributing to
that bias? I treat all people as classless.

The people described by myself are not bound by class, but by attitude and
morals. There is no class distinction involved.

The problem is not specific to one traditional "class".

The whole "tabloid smearing lies" drivel is another form of enforced division
by promoting classes of reading.

This sort of stuff annoys me.

(for reference I have never purchased a newspaper and rarely even bother to
look at the news unless it's technology related)

~~~
vidarh
> I treat all people as classless.

What a convenient fantasy.

> The problem is not specific to one traditional "class".

Except it is, because it is only a problem by the implication that signs of
wealth means that insufficient money must have been used on what is needed for
the infant

~~~
pointyhats
Firstly it's not a fantasy unless you make it one. As someone brought up on a
shoestring budget in one of the worst bits of London, I can assure you that in
the real world, class is entirely irrelevant and ethics and morals are. There
are people earning a quarter of what I do and three times what I do living
either side of me and we're all on the same page, have the same ideals, hopes
and goals.

There are no classes other than in the media.

Secondly, health is more important than purchasing branded and luxury goods.
That is universally accepted as to shortcut ones health is to cause harm and
the "golden rule" backs that up. To observe both signs of wealth and signs of
poverty at the same time has certain obvious implications.

It's all logic.

~~~
vidarh
> I can assure you that in the real world, class is entirely irrelevant and
> ethics and morals are.

I believe you in your claim that ethics and morals are independent of class.
But that is entirely irrelevant to the argument over the existence of classes.

> There are no classes other than in the media.

So everyone have the same economic means and same influence over their life?
The owner of a factory and the worker of a factory's interests are directly
aligned with each others?

> To observe both signs of wealth and signs of poverty at the same time has
> certain obvious implications.

I'm not quite so sure the implications are as obvious as what you claim. But
that is in any case irrelevant, as individual observations are still just
that.

> It's all logic.

Logic does not substitute for missing data.

------
bryanlarsen
The first thing that I noticed about the box is that all the baby clothes are
sex-neutral. Here in North America it's almost impossible to find baby clothes
that don't immediately scream "I'm a boy" or "I'm a girl".

~~~
belorn
To my understanding, parents in Finland don't normally know the biological sex
of the child before birth. If the box is given before the actually birth, then
it makes sense to make the colors gender neutral.

~~~
jpatokal
No, most parents in Finland do opt to find out. I presume it's just easier to
mass-produce a box of unisex clothing, and as the article says you can then
easily reuse the clothes for siblings.

~~~
belorn
I live in Sweden, so I assumed Finland had it similar. Here, parents are not
always offered to know the sex. This is sometimes because of hospital policy,
or because the ultrasound did not make it clear enough.

Thanks for giving a definitive answer.

~~~
ionforce
Why would there be a hospital policy against gender disclosure?

~~~
skreech
To prevent parents from aborting children of the "wrong" gender. It has sadly
happened, apparently.

~~~
fulafel
By the time you can tell, you can't have a legal abortion. Black market
ultrasound is probably not the limiting factor in illegal abortions in Sweden
or Finland.

~~~
skreech
They can't really tell with 100 % accuracy until birth, but by week 18 they
can tell with a very high level of accuracy. And Sweden permits abortions
until the end of week 18.

------
schoper
If we lived in a world where journalists knew the slightest bit about critical
thinking: Hmm, I wonder if the cardboard box cuts Finland's infant mortality.
Maybe I should look up infant mortality for Norway and Sweden? Oh, it's
exactly the same as Finland's? Can't be the box then.

I'm willing to bet that U.S. infant mortality is the same or even lower -- for
people of Finnish descent.

~~~
codeulike
It doesn't say the box cut infant mortality, it says that in the period 1940
to 1960, a combination of the box, encouraging visits to doctors and the
national health insurance system cut infant mortality.

~~~
krichman
I've done a small study and it turns out a combination of documenting,
preparing unit tests, and cardboard boxes improve my source code quality by
quite a bit.

~~~
pavlov
Duh. It's obviously not the box itself that has reduced mortality. The
"cardboard box" is a rhetorical shortcut that refers to the contents of the
box and all the associated materials such as the written guides on infant
care.

There's a strong autistic trait in HN discussion sometimes...

~~~
ars
> contents of the box and all the associated materials such as the written
> guides on infant care

None of that did anything either, since other countries didn't have them and
infant mortality went down there too.

~~~
eitland
Food for tought: if Norway has the same infant mortality rate and is
substantially richer, does that mean something?

I am not exactly a socialist but the Finnish people still impress me again and
again. (Happen to have a few friends and/or relatives from Finland. )

~~~
czr80
It means Norway found oil and gas.

~~~
naradaellis
And they are plowing (at least some of) the proceeds into public programs,
instead of private companies.

------
rayiner
> It's a tradition that dates back to the 1930s and it's designed to give all
> children in Finland, no matter what background they're from, an equal start
> in life.

What a wonderful idea. My daughter was born in Chicago last year, and the
hospital (Northwestern Memorial) gave us a little starter kit with bottles,
pacifiers, some swaddling blankets, etc. I remember thinking as I walked out
the door of the hospital that this was the last time that these kids would an
equal shot at life.

~~~
gbog
Not sure that the pacifiers are a good idea, do they have them in the Finland
box?

~~~
rayiner
What do you have against pacifiers?

~~~
gbog
It's inconvenient and better avoided. Toddlers cry, that's the normal thing.
Some are unbearable and then a pacifier is ok but they become addicted and
you're easily in deep shit if you travel and forget them or lose them (I had
one in each pocket when taking a plane).

I guess most kid don't really need it, parents need it, when they can't bear
the cries. But even then I think you just postpone the annoyance. I have a
friend whose pacifier story would make a good tv show, with the kid solemnly
taking the thing in the dustbin and the father frantically searching the bin
at 2am.

~~~
rayiner
> Toddlers cry, that's the normal thing.

Right, but toddlers also normally nurse to comfort themselves. If you're not
breastfeeding (or if you're like me and you're the night-time parent but have
no breasts) then a bink can be pretty clutch in terms of getting the kid to
sleep so you can go to work in the morning.

~~~
gbog
Why, I don't mind your kid or any other using pacifier. I mind a bit the
"pacifier by default" implied by its presence in the US baby box.

Also, if you can get a kid to control emotions early, it is all the better,
and pacifier may postpone this a bit.

------
ars
The BBC seems to have taken the story down.

You can see a list of what goes in the box here:
<http://www.kela.fi/web/en/maternitypackage>

~~~
hkmurakami
seems to be working fine for me as of 22:53 PST

~~~
eksith
Not working for me either at the moment, but it's in the search index :

<http://www.bbc.co.uk/search/news/?q=finnish%20babies>

Edit: Had the archive url here. Google cache instead :

[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22751415)

------
nej
Title of this article sounds a lot worst than what the article presents
(thankfully). This is off topic, but as refreshing as this article is, I
wonder how many readers avoided reading this due to the title as it could've
been a very depressing article.

~~~
adaml_623
That's interesting because I looked at the title and assumed almost the direct
opposite to you. I assumed that I would read the article and find something
uplifting and happy about babies in Finland. And something interesting about
cardboard boxes in Nordic climates.

I visited Iceland years ago and observed that babies were often left outside
in prams (rugged up and only during the day) and it turns out that the locals
believe that it's quite healthy to do so.

Reading about this more recently shows that this isn't unique and a lot of
cultures in colder climates do this.

------
cdoxsey
Infant mortality rates can also be quite deceptive in that they aren't
measured the same way between countries.

"Even the use of the most fundamental term, “live births,” greatly distorts
infant-mortality rates, because often the infants who die the soonest after
birth are not counted as live births outside the United States."

[http://www.nationalreview.com/content/infant-mortality-
decep...](http://www.nationalreview.com/content/infant-mortality-deceptive-
statistic)

~~~
miloshadzic
I don't think the point of the article was to compare infant mortality between
countries. Finland had a problem with infant mortality and this is one of the
steps they took to improve. The program seems to be working well and makes the
Finns happy.

------
steve19
But does it decrease infant mortality? According to the CIA Facebook 2013
figures, Finland has the 12th lowest infant mortality _. Not sure if this
means the scheme works, or if simply paying a pregnant woman $50 each time she
visits a doctor prior to birth would be a cheaper alternative (with the same
outcome).

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mor...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate)

_ The WHO recommends countries record all babies born alive as live births,
but some countries don't if the baby dies soon after (this makes them look
better).

~~~
davedx
Did you read the article?

"In the 1930s Finland was a poor country and infant mortality was high - 65
out of 1,000 babies died. But the figures improved rapidly in the decades that
followed."

It's now 3/1,000.

~~~
riffraff
correlation/causation.

E.g. Italy does not have baby boxes, and child mortality went from 60/1000 to
3/1000 in the last sixty years too.

This happened basically everywhere, and either cardboard boxes play a big role
and are used everywhere, or the effect is quite limited.

~~~
vidarh
The article does not claim that the cardboard box _itself_ played a big role.

It implies that the requirement to get prenatal care in order to receive the
box played a role. EDIT: And it's not even making a strong claim about that.
From the article "Mika Gissler, a professor at the National Institute for
Health and Welfare in Helsinki, gives several reasons for this - the maternity
box and pre-natal care for all women in the 1940s, followed in the 60s by a
national health insurance system and the central hospital network."

~~~
VLM
"It implies that the requirement to get prenatal care in order to receive the
box played a role."

This is the hack of the box that is not being understood here on HN. The hack
isn't that its a box or that cellulose is the ideal crib material, the hack is
this is the nearly ideal carrot/stick to get moms to prenatal care. There are
zillions of other ways to get moms to prenatal care across the whole spectrum
of human experience ranging from intensive education, shoved at army bayonet
point, bureaucracy and paperwork, tax codes, legal enforcement by goons with
guns, who knows what else.

The true hack, the reason this is on HACKER news, is this is an amazing
intersection of minimal overall total system cost and its incredibly polite
and pleasant and basically civilized.

Its like all the skinner box psychological manipulation brilliance of Zynga,
but applied to lowering infant mortality rates at the absolute minimum
possible cost.

Frankly I'm not surprised, as a cultural thing, Scandinavian types might not
have all the answers to everything, but when they do have an answer, its
inevitably always the most elegant and efficient. Health care, architecture...
baby boxes... no great surprise once again they rocked it.

~~~
sanoli
This x10. Same thing happens here in the state where I live (São Paulo,
Brazil). A similar box (it's actually a bag) is given to lower income
expecting women, but only if they sign-up to the Mãe Paulistana program (São
Paulo Mothers, loosely translated), which then has them going through all the
prenatal and postnatal care that is the actual main focus of the program.

------
glennos
I imagine the stress that this would take out of new parents' lives would be
enormous. Apart from the physical and financial pressures, one thing that I
think would weigh on me most when becoming a dad would be "are we doing this
right?" Especially for those that don't have parents or an experienced role
model to help them, at least as a concept this seems like a fantastic program
for a govt to run.

------
ceautery
I like that Finland has added cloth diapers and taken the bottle out. I wish,
though, that sleeping with baby wasn't stigmatized, and that ultrasounds
weren't deemed to be expected and normal during prenatal care (you may not
hear or feel it, but watch a baby who is further along react - they freak
out).

Anyway, the Finns seem to have their hearts in the right place. Well done.

------
lucb1e
Turns out the Netherlands also knows this kind of "happy box" as we call it,
and my parents had one as well. I never knew!

------
joshdance
I think the article is interesting, but they make the claim that the box may
have helped lower infant mortality. Is that supported by any data? Would love
to see a study, maybe pair Finland with a close neighbor country that does not
provide the box etc.

~~~
sesqu
Well, setting prenatal care as a prerequisite for the box almost certainly
did.

------
lysium
Funnily enough, in Germany parents are advised to not let their newborns sleep
in somewhere with all four sides closed (as is the case in this box).

The alleged reason is to reduce the risk of sudden infant death.

~~~
cafard
Fashions come and go in advice. Generations of American babies were put down
to sleep on their sides, now the thinking is that they should be on their
backs.

------
Aloha
Mirror: [http://updatednews.ca/2013/06/03/why-finnish-babies-
moslty-s...](http://updatednews.ca/2013/06/03/why-finnish-babies-moslty-sleep-
in-cardboard-boxes/)

------
xmr
Is it possible to buy these and get them shipped outside of Finland?

~~~
tommis
Unfortunately you can't, but you should be able to buy most of the items off
the shelf in Finland (except the original cardboard box).

This page displays the contents of this years box with the contents:

<http://www.kela.fi/aitiyspakkaus>

Here's an infomercial demoing the contents:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVPw2_A9V5Y>

Lot of the clothes are from finnish company Reima, which have an online shop:

<http://www.reimashop.fi/>

------
Uhhrrr
I'm jealous - not of the Finnish babies, but of the companies who provide the
boxes and the contents.

It must be a nice sinecure.

You'd probably have lots of free time to send press releases to the BBC.

------
pvdm
Nordic countries gets it, in more ways than just this.

------
jszlasa
A start up (or Google) ought to give a similar kind of thing to their
employees on their first day. At minimum it would get marketing buzz.

~~~
Nursie
??

"Hey Bob, glad you could join the team! Here's a big cardboard box to sleep
in, it should fit under your desk nicely. You'll find a couple of onesies in
there, some shampoo and shower gel, toothbrush, toothpaste etc. You'll never
need to leave the office again!"

"Oh, and don't worry about that 'I'm sleeping in a coffin' feeling, it goes
away after a couple of weeks"

~~~
codeulike
That convinces me its a good idea

~~~
jszlasa
Agreed. At my first company we used to make sure every employee had a fresh
packet of business cards and a mug on their desk for the first day. A nice box
packed with thoughtful stuff you'll need is a good idea especially if it
includes a few pair of gender-neutral-adult-size-onesies emblazoned with the
company logo.

------
duncan_bayne
Because they're easy to cut to size: <http://satwcomic.com/no-invitation>

------
calinet6
Gotta love that Infant Mortality graph... if that's not direct proof of a
systematic effect and success then I don't know what is.

~~~
ars
> if that's not direct proof of a systematic effect and success then I don't
> know what is

Two graphs. One for a country with a box, and one for one without.

Interestingly people have made such graphs, and there is no difference.

------
smallegan
Do all Finnish babies wear the same clothes then? Seems like a decent way to
mix up who's who :-)

------
uiwntelnz
Along with this, does anyone know if Finland provides coffins for their
recently deceased?

~~~
zurn
And do they get shipped to you shortly before you die?

------
squozzer
It's a pretty interesting case of how an idea becomes an institution.

------
gdonelli
It looks like the baby has been photoshopped over the box...

------
yoster
I would see how this box would give Finland one of the world's lowest infant
mortality rates. You can't lug a crib with you to different rooms. With a box,
you can bring it to the same room you occupy, greatly increasing the
observation time of the baby. This is a nice gesture of this country. I can't
say the same for the blatant waste of taxpayer money I experience in my
country.

