

Khan Academy: the bad - pixcavator
http://inperc.com/blog2/2011/04/10/khan-academy-the-bad/

======
burgerbrain
_"First, Khan has never lectured."_ _"Second, Khan has never taught."_

Odd, because I'm pretty damned sure that through his _lectures_ , he has
_taught_ me a good deal of basic chemistry.

Results are the only thing that matters. If and only if people find Khan's
material valuable, it will become popular. Guess what? It's pretty damned
popular.

~~~
arnorhs
Exactly.

Also:

    
    
      > What do you expect from a good lecture? Depth, 
      > insight, introspective. It shouldn’t be just
      > regurgitated material from a textbook and it
      > shouldn’t be a “how-to” manual on tape.
    

Is it possible that students don't feel the same way? For my part, the fact
that the courses get down to it and don't _over complicate_ things makes it
better.

If the courses were filled with "insights" and other off topic things I'd find
myself fast forwarding all the time.

I think this is a prime example of how having no domain knowledge actually can
help a lot and free you from years of this-is-how-it's-always-been-done.

~~~
burgerbrain
It could be that students don't in fact place the same value in those things.
_However_ , in my humble experience, the Khan videos are actually much better
at providing those things than most of the lecturers I have ever had.

Sure he doesn't go off on tangents about work he did as a grad student in some
tenuously related topic two decades ago, but I consider that a win and
unrelated to _"Depth, insight, introspective"_

------
ajays
"First, Khan has never lectured." "Second, Khan has never taught."

This is such BS. When I came to the US on an assistantship, I was assigned to
TA an intro to programming course. The problems were: a) I didn't have an
undergrad degree in computer science, having taken only 1 course in
programming (officially), b) I had never taught, c) my degree was from India,
and here I was in a different education system in a different country.

But you know what? I got rave reviews from students.

It doesn't matter whether you've taught or not. What matters is how well you
can explain the subject at hand, and how passionate and patient you are.

~~~
Lewisham
This was exactly what came to my mind too. No professors that I know of were
taught how to lecture, they just got thrown in and did it. When I've TA'd,
I've totally winged it. What Khan does is no different, but at least he does
it with charisma.

~~~
pixcavator
I remember winging teaching as a TA. After 10+ years I know I stunk, no
offense.

------
ramidarigaz
When reading this article, the thing that came to mind was his TED talk
([http://www.ted.com/talks/salman_khan_let_s_use_video_to_rein...](http://www.ted.com/talks/salman_khan_let_s_use_video_to_reinvent_education.html))

I think Salman Khan's biggest point in the talk seems to address this guy's
complaint. He's not aiming to replace the teacher, he's aiming to replace the
lecture. Students go home, watch his videos at whatever pace suits them, and
then they go to school and have the _really important_ interaction with the
teacher and other students, which can also happen at the student's desired
pace.

~~~
rubergly
I agree, and I thought of that too when reading the article. In some sense, it
doesn't matter if Khan is just underlining and emphasizing the same word that
the student doesn't understand over and over again, because the goal is for
the student to still have that really important interaction with the teacher
where that stuff is clarified.

But I think the implicit point in the article is that using Khan Academy in a
school classroom is just one use case and that Khan Academy should still be
useful for people who want to use it but don't have a teacher to talk to the
next day about questions. And that's a difficult issue; while changing the
education system is American public schools is amazing and all, the real
humanitarian benefits to the site is that it can bring education to people who
don't have access to other forms of education, and I have to agree that, as
is, it doesn't handle that case spectacularly. I trust that it is on their
minds and planned at some point, though (maybe though a better Q&A interface
or something).

------
fourspace
The OP seems to forget that the goal of the Khan Academy is not just to
produce videos. Of course there's no feedback with a one-way video lesson.

If you watch his (excellent) TED talk [1], you'll see that his organization
isn't just about video lectures, but rather an all-encompassing suite of tools
that allows students to learn at their own pace, repeat lessons that they
didn't understand at first, and provides teachers with analytics to target
their attention towards those students who need help.

[1] <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gM95HHI4gLk>

~~~
rubergly
This is very important. The article ends on the note of "they're not even
looking to hire educators; they're hiring _software developers_ " as if that's
an extremely poignant accusation of the misdirection of the Academy, but the
stuff that Khan shows in the TED talk, which is what they need the developers
for, is the real potential for the site.

~~~
dws
You could as easily say that it's a poignant accusation of the misdirection of
educators.

------
toddh
When you go to a process critique rather than argue results that's the sign of
a weak criticism. The article is more concerned about how he does what he does
rather than what he accomplishes. Khan has a system of which the videos are
just one part. Teachers are a key part of his program, they are just freed to
tackle more salient aspects of teaching, like helping kids get over problems.
It's an open source business model. The source is free, use it if you wish,
but for service, there could be a fee. Teachers could actually be paid to
teach and mentor instead of lecturing and giving tests. It's a successful
model elsewhere and worth trying in education. Teachers and others can produce
the content and then anyone else can charge a fee for teaching using the
infrastructure. There's no reason the lectures can't improve over time, but
you have to start somewhere, and he did. And the other parts of the system are
still very valid. Inversion of lecture and help time, a test until success
testing model, go at your pace, short modules that build on each other, a
dashboard helping teachers track progress and proactively solve problems. Why
is that a bad approach?

~~~
pixcavator
It’s not a bad approach. However, the lectures are the only results I can see
right now. I criticize the results that I see. And you don’t refute my points.
You just see “the sign of weak criticism”.

------
zdw
The advantage of the Khan Academy is that the teaching method:

\- Shows how the work was done in a step by step manner

\- Cuts the subjects up into short, easily digestible chunks

(note that both of these could be attributed to the medium, as screencasts
require showing nearly everything unless you want to edit heavily, and YouTube
has a length limitation)

The poster's points are valid - Khan's videos exist pretty much in a vaccum,
and having no active feedback means that people who don't get a concept are
sunk.

That said, there are solutions - I could imagine a teacher assigning "Watch
videos 1-3 on subject X" to a class, then in the class sessions students would
have to demonstrate competency and could get help.

I don't know anyone who thinks that Khan's work is the end-all solution to
teaching problems.

~~~
burgerbrain
_"I could imagine a teacher assigning "Watch videos 1-3 on subject X" to a
class, then in the class sessions students would have to demonstrate
competency and could get help."_

In fact, this is _exactly_ how Khan advocates that his site be integrated into
existing education.

~~~
yequalsx
I've done this and it didn't work. It was a disaster. Students weren't willing
to watch the videos. They weren't willing to do even this small amount of
work.

My experience is that they prefer the lecture/test format. It allows them to
slack off. A couple of days before the test they will study. The prefer to go
through this cycle 4 or 5 times a semester than to continually have to work.

~~~
rfrey
I've observed that students often aren't willing to do even a small amount of
work in some classes, take every opportunity to slack off, and study a few
days before the test in some classes, while in other classes those same
students are engaged; work hard, enthusiastically, and willingly; and in
general are model learners.

I have no explanation for the split personality these students show. Theories,
anyone?

~~~
pjscott
I've been thinking about that on and off for years, and I think the most
important factor is the teacher's apparent level of respect for the students.
In the classes where the students actually worked, the common thread I noticed
was that the teachers of those classes visibly _expected_ the students to work
hard and do their best. And vice versa: the teachers who were the most
obsessive about controlling their classes were also the ones who got the least
cooperation in this from the students. (I think the causation goes both ways
here.)

So if I were teaching, say, a math class, and I wanted to use Sal Khan's
videos for the lecture content, here's what I would want to do:

1\. Have less class time. They're watching videos outside of class, so it all
balances out, and makes the videos seem like a more legitimate part of the
class.

2\. Let the students know that, if they just cram before tests and don't watch
the videos, they'll probably flunk. Contrariwise, if they keep up with the
work, they should do just fine, and if they're having trouble, I'm happy to
help.

3\. Keep grading standards high enough that the preceding statement is true.

4\. Have the first test be difficult but not weighted heavily, as an official
kick in the pants to stir laggards from their lethargy.

I think this would go a long way toward creating the right mind-set in
students, if it's matched with the corresponding respect from the teacher.

------
yummyfajitas
tl;dr

Salman Khan is not an insider, and therefore I reject his attempts at
disruptive innovation.

~~~
forkandwait
$0.25 says the author thinks Mr. Khan should go through a (worthless, IMO)
teacher training program.

~~~
pixcavator
Wrong. Mr. Khan needs experience teaching real students. Oh yeah, and a PhD in
every field he wants to “disrupt”. Just kidding.

------
samrat
I think that Khan Academy is based on the idea that the curriculum schools
currently follow and the way the curriculum is taught is not ideal. So, in
that regard, the fact that Salman Khan has no experience in a formal teaching
environment could actually be an advantage. Also, I think that Khan receives a
significant amount of feedback in the form of Youtube comments, including
questions regarding the subject matter he has discussed in a video, so he can
actually interact with students.

------
swix
I dont think the poster has valid points really, at the khan academy a student
can follow in his or hers own pace, when they want as they want. That is not
something that can be done in a lecture room.

Also in a lecture room you cant participate in the lecture 40 times so you
really understand... unless you record the lecture, but in the khan academy..
if you need to watch a video 300 times.. goahead

~~~
joevandyk
I failed the first tine I took a class on scheme. A the second time.

------
codelurker
"The Khan Academy has a few good things that make the service useful.
Unfortunately, the good things about it don’t outweigh the bad ones."

Umm - Millions of people are learning. I'd say the good >>> the bad.

------
carmellevy
As videos on the internet, Khan is actually fine. The videos are largely
informative, and I like watching them. But classroom implementations are a
whole different ballgame.

If you want to actually improve the education kids are getting, there are a
huge number of moving parts you have to address. In this sense, as a classroom
implementation tool, Khan is just getting started. There's nothing to judge
yet!

I've spoken with them a bit, and they're still trying to decide on the
direction they want to take, how much they want to get involved in what they
call "change management" in the classroom, i.e. making sure the tool gets used
effectively. In my opinion, this is essential, but it takes manpower, and
that's not something they can offer for free.

Of course, that requires having an understanding of how such a tool should be
used, and as has been said, they're not teachers. The importance of them not
having any classroom educational expertise is that they don't actually have a
clear idea of how the tool would be used effectively. I work as an on-site PD
specialist for Reasoning Mind, my job is to help teachers use this kind of
technology. Khan learned a lot from their pilot in Los Altos, but they weren't
being used as the primary curriculum there.

They're looking to be a full curriculum, what they call a "textbook
replacement system". Doing that kind of thing effectively in communities that
aren't as well-off (economically and teacher-quality-wise) as Los Altos is
really, really hard. It takes a huge amount of work on the "change mgmt" side,
high quality material, a ton of training for the teachers in the new classroom
paradigm. This isn't the first foray into 100% differentiated classrooms, it's
just the first one to go viral.

In sum, take a step back guys. Give them a chance to grow into a mature
organization.

------
lyudmil
The first two points seem completely vacuous to me.

Khan has never lectured? So what? I know plenty of people who have lectured
every day for decades and they're still no good at it. It doesn't seem like
(professional) experience lecturing is necessary to be an effective teacher.

Khan has never taught, so he hasn't needed to deal with the difficulties of
the classroom? Yes, and to think that's a problem is to deny the premise of
The Khan Academy - that if people are allowed to learn autonomously, the
problems of the classroom go away. That argument basically reduces to "No,
they don't". That's hardly reasoned.

For me the greatest benefit of The Khan Academy is the fact that Khan is a
great teacher. We know there are teachers who are more engaging and
stimulating than their peers and we know there's very few of them. I see The
Khan Academy as an exercise in scaling great teaching. The institutional
effects are very interesting and important, but secondary to me.

------
erikb
As many other readers here I disagree with that statement as it stands. Saying
that a new idea is not valid because it is not like the old idea is wrong in
itself.

But when I look behind this little logical error, I find a quite valuable
analysis. Before I really thought K.A. might be the "university killer". Now I
see it more as opening up the spectrum of ways, we can teach and learn.

------
nathos
While I think Peter Saveliev's immediate conclusions regarding Khan are
incorrect, I do wonder: will Khan be bringing on more instructors to record
videos outside his fields of expertise?

The Academy has already started a revolution in education. Wouldn't it benefit
from more/better instructors, better production values, etc?

Also, I'd love to see Khan Academy-sponsored videos on the humanities. Of
course, I'm not sure how liberal arts content could fit into the automated
testing of the new exercise dashboard.

~~~
Kyotoku
This is a filtering/sorting problem. There is a lot of people and companies
working on this. It is good having something to be filtered/sorted

------
gnosis
Another critic of Khan Academy:

<http://andrewducker.livejournal.com/2332277.html>

------
kmfrk
This entire post makes no sense. It's like the author says that Khan Academy
is bad, because it doesn't copy the usual lecture format completely. It's
different, boo.

And then there's the part where he doesn't realize that Khan Academy is
supplemental, and not a replacement.

------
RBerenguel
I think (I'm a mathematician and I have lectured and taught in the University)
the poster has valid points... but will be trashed in the comments (here and
elsewhere).

~~~
pbreit
The poster may have valid points but the post is useless. Anyone can sit back
and say a maker didn't do it right. I actually don't think his points are all
that good.

~~~
pixcavator
You didn’t follow any of the links, did you?

------
swaits
Sorry, I couldn't get past the word "tuturing". It is, after all, a critique
on Khan's educational abilities. So embarrassing!

~~~
pixcavator
Always spell-check! Thanks.

------
andos
I always understood Khan Academy as complementary to conventional classes.

To cover all topics of high school and college curricula doesn't necessarily
mean supplanting high school and college or redefining education. If that is
the case, I think the OP has a point. I don't think it is the case, though. No
reason to worry.

~~~
pjscott
It's complementary to _some parts_ of conventional classes. It directly
competes with the part of conventional classes that consists of monologue-
style lectures paced too fast or too slow for most of the students.

------
patrickaljord
> If the student in the “audience” is struggling, he is free to turn the video
> off and try something else.

That's what his guided exercises are for
<http://www.khanacademy.org/exercises?exid=linear_equations_1>

------
andrest
I might not be the best solution in the long-term, but it's certainly a start
in the right direction.

Teaching is roughly the same as it was 50 years ago. We're yet to harness the
power of computational revolution and Khan Academy shows the way.

------
hexis
No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame.

------
teilo
Yeah. Tell that to my kids who are learning Algebra from Sal, and are learning
it quite well.

------
mattwdelong
As a student, I'm particular interested in learning the basics of any given
domain. With the basics, I'm given enough knowledge to go out and explore that
particular domain - this is how I learn and Khan Academy is AWESOME for this
method.

------
antoinevg
Khan Academy doesn't have to be bad for the thing you are doing to be good.

------
brudgers
I think the article misses the big point of Kahn's enterprise - finding an
alternative model for delivering education which can scale well.

It isn't meant to replace a top quality teacher at a highly selective
institution teaching an elite group of students. It's intended to make decent
education available on a large scale and accessible to learners in highly
diverse and non-traditional situations, e.g. home schoolers, adult learners,
and intellectually gifted individuals.

It still suffers from many of the issues that the factory model has because it
is still the factory model - just different and hopefully improved.

