

Why your brain just can't remember that word (btw bilingualism makes it harder) - amichail
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17263-why-your-brain-just-cant-remember-that-word.html

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whacked_new
This is why rapid switching between two native languages is the easiest way
for coordinate bilinguals to talk (listen to Latin American folks on the NYC
subway). No tip of the tongue there, and always the most apt expression at the
right time.

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knowtheory
That's really irrelevant to the point at hand (as well as rather speculative.

The disfluencies that this study looks at regards rarely used words. Fluent
casual speech isn't the best place to look for such disfluencies anyway, so i
don't know that listening to people on the subway is a good demonstration.

Also, while code-switching may be a way to get around tip of the tongue
experiences, it is a considerably more complicated phenomenon, and there is
likely to be a variety of other factors and considerations to take into
account when studying code-switching.

~~~
whacked_new
Good call.

The speculation isn't unfounded though, although it isn't appreciably strong
here. Word choice comes substantially faster when the most efficient
expression can be chosen without any self-monitoring. It's quite plausible
that in this case you'll find less instances of tip of the tongue.

While the experiment here relied on rare words, and I'm just one data point,
but I get ToT probably once for every 2000 words I say. When rapid code-
switching is consciously available, I can quickly avert it because I have fast
access to good candidate words, which reduces the apparent occurrence.

If ToT is taken as a speech disfluency from unresolved competition for word
access, you could mitigate it simply by creating an imbalance between the
signal strength such that winner takes all (in which case the subway example
does demonstrate something useful, although as you point out, the variables
are jumbled up). Somehow I got a deja vu just now. This has been discussed
here before, or somewhere, or what I am writing is coming from something else
I have read...

I also realize that ToT cannot be reduced to simple competition, but it is
also plausible that slow access and competition manifest similarly, i.e.
obstructed speech flow, while partial semantic access. WEAVER++ tried to
explain this and I liked it very much (obviously I don't know what's state of
the art now).

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joeyo
I think I would gladly put up with more tip-of-the-tongue syndrome in exchange
for for early-age bilingualism.

~~~
Timothee
Early-age is probably key. I am French and have lived in the US for a few
years and I can feel that I sometime struggle a little with French now... (I'm
not saying I'm exactly bilingual though, fluent seems enough to confuse me)

~~~
mahmud
I switch between 3 languages without thought while speaking, however, to write
in one I would need to pause for a few seconds to collect my thoughts (I need
a whole day to switch context to write poetry or reasoned prose.)

While skimming this text I caught myself saying this to my brother, see how
much of it can you understand:

"Accountkayga charge-garee caawa, depositku wuxuu ku dhacayaa yawmayn aw
thalatha".

Three English words with Somali conjugation suffixed with a pure arabic
phrase. Wrong in three languages :-P

~~~
aswanson
I'm impressed with the people who post here whose native language is not
English. Not only do they write passable posts, but they are even more well-
versed, phrased, and seem to possess a wider vocabulary than most native
speakers I run into. As an American, I am somewhat jealous of that ability.

[EDIT: Ironically, had a grammatical error!]

~~~
amichail
English is my third language and I resent it very much.

Fluency in English is the only thing that matters in today's world.

Anything that hinders your ability to speak it at the highest level possible
(e.g., learning other languages) is a mistake.

CLARIFICATION: What I resent is that English is not my first (and preferably
only) language.

~~~
mahmud
_English is my third language and resent it very much._

You're looking at it wrong. English is the closest thing we have to a human
lingua franca. I hope you're not bashing it for nationalistic reasons,
because, even if it owes its ubiquity to an imperialist past, English today is
the property of its non-colonial speakers as much as its native speakers.

You will appreciate this oddball pseudo-germanic, latin-esque language when
you venture out of its home turf: I tutored English to Arab students who were
learning it to communicate with Chinese manufacturers, and a Vietnamese
musician who wanted to reply to his Myspace fans, including a Thai girl who
has a crush on him :-D

~~~
amichail
What I resent is that English is not my first (and preferably only) language.

~~~
mahmud
Languages are keys to cultures; forsaking them all in favor of one is not only
silly, but a self-imposed intellectual and emotional exile.

Try to love whatever culture and language your parents gave you, for starters,
regardless of their utility or perceived social stature.

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joetrumpet
It's very interesting to see a study with negative effects of multilingualism.
I experience this a lot and never even considered it could partially be caused
by knowing multiple languages. I'm extremely curious to see how much the
effect increases as number of languages does (as far as I'm aware this is
fairly common for Europeans)--hopefully it's a diminishing effect!

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startingup
I am fluent in two languages, and I have encountered the exact problem
described in the article: I am trying to recall a word, and find that I can't.
At times I can recall the beginning letter, even the rough sound of the word,
but not the word itself. Then the word will come to me a few moments later in
a flash. The embarrassing part is when this happens during a conversation; I
have resorted to filler sentences or repeating myself as my brain searches
frantically for that right word.

I used to worry if it was some kind of early warning of Alzheimers ... good to
know this phenomenon has a more benign explanation too.

~~~
whacked_new
> I have resorted to filler sentences or repeating myself as my brain searches
> frantically for that right word.

I have gotten into the habit of first declaring what the word starts with,
sounds like, and approximates. This lets the listener help me out. Then I
usually use a metaphor, which is often inappropriate: "how much groping in the
dark did you have when you [started using this analysis software]?" Then I get
weird looks but you end up grabbing their attention, sometimes they find the
word for you, and other times the vocabulary comes back to you a few sentences
later.

In the above example, I didn't find the word, but thankfully the point made
its way across. It was further weird because this was at an MRI scanner, so
somebody was literally "groping in the dark."

I also remember embarrassingly forgetting the word for "fly" (bug), pointing
around in the air, and said, "the, the, the, thing." I use pronouns lavishly
too: did you cut a hole in the thing to put the thing in the thing? --> did
you cut a hole in the wood block to put the slab's protrusion into the wood
block?

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truebosko
I was born and raised Polish and lately I've been talking it way more since my
Grandpa is in the country. I've definitely experienced this.

I usually find myself knowing the word in English but instead of it coming
out, my brain keeps thinking and trying to spit out the Polish word. Then, a
second later it clicks or someone corrects me. It's annoying, but I'd rather
speak two languages than just one :)

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Hexstream
What about those people who know a high number of languages, say 8? Do they
get tip-of-the-tongue moments all the time?

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nicara
What I find similarly odd about bilingualism is that often I can't seem to
translate one of the languages I speak into another. I don't have any problems
expressing my thoughts in whatever form in either language, but converting
already thought stuff from one language to the other is extremely hard. Maybe
this stems from the way I learn languages (I've never been able to relate to
the classroom-way of teaching; learned everything from talking to friends /
reading prose in the foreign language - I don't think about which language to
speak in, it just comes naturally, maybe best seen by the fact that I can
dream in 3 languages, depending on what language I've spoken most on that
particular day), so it might be hard to reproduce so you guys probably can't
see what I'm saying, can you. :/

~~~
riahi
I learned three languages when I was younger (Persian first, then English and
Spanish at the same time) and can swap into them instantaneously. However, the
languages I learned later (Portuguese and now some smatterings of Chinese)
require me to stop, think, and listen for about 10-15 minutes before the
language takes over in my mind, and I may converse more fluidly. This contrast
alone is quite interesting for me.

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lionheart
Wow, that explains why this happens so often with me and my family. We're all
bilingual and quite often can't think of the right word.

However, if we are just speaking amongst ourselves its a lot easier because
usually while you can't remember the word in the language you should be using,
you remember its synonym in the other language.

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sahaj
i know three languages and i suck at remembering words when i need to. i am
fairly good at grabbing onto concepts, but have a hard time remembering the
word that's used to describe the concept.

~~~
mahmud
You're not reading or listening enough. Languages need maintenance.

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ahoyhere
This article made me feel much better about the sense of creeping doom I've
developed when I have become unable to think of the English word I wanted.
(I'm an American expat who moved to Austria.)

Who cares about the science... I feel validated! :)

