
Review: Touch Bar MacBook Pros give an expensive glimpse at the Mac’s future - dasmoth
http://arstechnica.com/video/2016/11/the-2016-13-and-15-inch-touch-bar-macbook-pros-reviewed/
======
cocktailpeanuts
People bitch about dongles but if you think about it, who would make this
progress if Apple doesn't?

Apple is probably the only consumer tech hardware company out there that can
do this. I almost think it's their responsibility to push the boundary.

People make fun of the term "Courage" and I thought that was funny at first
too. But the more I think about it the more I get what he's trying to say.
Right now NO ONE other than Apple has the "courage" to make this decision. Do
you think Dell would do it? Samsung? Only Apple has enough influence in the
industry to be able to do something like this and NOT lose all their users. If
Samsung got rid of all their ports, people would probably ditch them and buy a
Lenovo or something. So Samsung cant' do it. Coming back to Apple, I'm an
apple user and I have to buy it because it's just much better for me as a
developer. And honestly speaking, I don't care about all these dongles
arguments and "it's not for a pro" arguments. I'm not buying a device whose
primary purpose is to stick in my USB cable. And pros don't complain about
their tools.

Anyway Apple knows that if nobody makes this decision, laptops will just stay
as some stagnant genre of devices that are only able to do things that people
used to do in the 2000s.

In other words, if Apple didn't do this, I think the entire laptop category
will just stagnate and be cannibalized by other platforms. See TV as an
example.

~~~
jacquesc
PC Laptop world is actually really competitive. Check out Razer, Alienware,
Yoga line, and Microsoft Surface.

They're innovating like crazy. Touch screens, OLED displays, external GPUs,
different form factors, VR capable performance, etc. And many of those laptops
integrated Thunderbolt 3 a while ago.

Regrettably, Apple has us all locked into their ecosystem via software so it
feels like they are the only ones innovating.

~~~
cletus
See I don't see this as "innovating like crazy". I see it as "adding bullet-
list features like crazy", which isn't quite the same thing.

This is always where Apple has excelled eg not adding touch screens to laptops
cos it's ergonomically terrible (as Steve Jobs IMHO rightly said).

Apple has also historically taken technologies that have been in the market
for awhile and made them not suck. Wireless is a prime example. Anyone else
remember the days where you had to setup a wifi connection by specifying
encryption type and trying to figure out if you were WEP, WPA1, WPA2 or
WPA2-Enterprise? Apple came long and simply let you enter a password. OSX will
figure out the rest.

The problem with the new Macbooks (IMHO) is that it represents a change in
philosophy. As one review said "USB-C is the future but we're living
unfortunately still living in the present" (paraphrased from The Verge IIRC).

How much would it have hurt to have 2 A and 2 C ports?

This rush to market has also led to some compatibility issues between TB3
devices.

A comment I read online (on HN IIRC) went something like "we've moved from a
world where if the cable fits, it works to where the cable fits and nothing
works". It's a salient point: the cost of a universal connector is putting us
in cable hell.

PCs have long been a case of marketing pinheads building incoherent bullet
lists (ie throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks). You're seeing
negative reaction because people expect more from Apple.

~~~
thatswrong0
It would have hurt to have the USB-A ports because that would have led to
slower adoption of USB-C. All USB-C means that device manufacturers can't
ignore it for as long, esp. for manufacturers that want to have their products
featured in Apple stores.

So it is a bit painful for the end user, but in the long run everyone benefits
from quicker adoption.

------
olegkikin
Correct URL:

[http://arstechnica.com/video/2016/11/the-2016-13-and-15-inch...](http://arstechnica.com/video/2016/11/the-2016-13-and-15-inch-
touch-bar-macbook-pros-reviewed/)

------
davidf18
Many of us just want the 15" display preferring longer battery life and
smaller size/weight to using a discrete GPU. I am at a university and the 15"
rMBPs are popular with students as well as researchers. I currently have the
2015 rMBP 15".

Thus, it is disappointing that there is not replacement for the version that
uses only the integrated graphics. Also, the Intel 530 graphics of the 2016
rMBP 15" appears to be lower performing than the 2015 rMBP 15" integrated
graphics. While there were benchmarks for the battery life of the iGPU, there
were no performance benchmarks comparing the rMBP 15" 2016 iGPU vs. the 2015
iGPU.

I've looked online and it appears that the 530 is about 20% slower than the
2015 rMBP 15" iGPU.

EDIT: Source for Iris Pro 5200 vs. HD 530: 5200 about 20% faster than 530 for
same resolution.

[http://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Iris-Pro-
HD-5200-...](http://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Iris-Pro-
HD-5200-V2-Mobile-12-GHz-vs-Intel-HD-530-Desktop-Skylake/m8190vsm33102)

~~~
simonsarris
> I've looked online and it appears that the 530 is about 20% slower than the
> 2015 rMBP 15" iGPU.

This is probably due to the increased screen resolution. If you make the
resolutions of both models the same I _suspect_ it will be comparable or
faster in benchmarks.

(2015 MBP default resolution of 2880×1800 vs new, 3360×2100)

Something similar happened with iPads came out with retina displays. Pushing
lots of pixels consumes more performance.

~~~
merb
a little bit akward that they raised the resolution. 2880x1800 was just fine,
having 3360x2100 also means that you again needs to tweak everything if you
might use linux.

------
ThePhysicist
They also reviewed the new Lenovo Yoga 910, which seems to be a good
alternative for people that don't rely on MacOS:

[http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016/11/lenovo-
yoga-910-revie...](http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016/11/lenovo-
yoga-910-review-an-elegant-upgrade-with-minor-compromises/)

It even has a 4K touch-enabled display.

~~~
CountSessine
I sort of feel like anytime someone reviews a Lenovo laptop, they have a
responsibility to mention in the review whether there's any of Lenovo's EFI
dickery like self-reinstalling windows drivers, expunged options, or SSL-
interposing malware included. Right now the guidance seems to be that if you
get a Yoga you'll get the dickery, if you get a thinkpad you'll be ok. But I'd
really like to see reviewers call this out explicitly.

It's also worth pointing out that the 910 can't be a MacBook replacement with
that nonstandard keyboard layout.

~~~
WorldMaker
Third option is to buy a "Signature Edition" [1][2] from the Microsoft Store
(or participating retail stores such as some Best Buys and Staples, I think,
if you ask nicely to someone that has the right sort of a clue). Microsoft's
Signature Edition program expressly forbids selling the machine with anything
more than a clean Windows install. It's definitely what I've started
recommending anytime anyone mentions to me to be thinking about a new Windows
computer.

[1]
[https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/cat/categor...](https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/cat/categoryID.69916600)

[2] The Yoga, for example:
[https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/Lenovo-...](https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/Lenovo-
Yoga-910-13IKB-80VF-Signature-Edition-2-in-1-PC/productID.5072380300)

~~~
CountSessine
Interesting - so they would actually use a different/clean EFI image on those?

If so, then I agree - that's by far the best way to get a Windows laptop. I'll
pass on the recommendation next time someone asks me.

It does seem to be a bit more expensive, though; at least for Canadians. I'm
seeing a $700 delta between what I'm seeing there and on the Dell store. Is
that usual?

~~~
WorldMaker
That's typical PC par for the course of different stores selling roughly the
same machine at different prices. Just like some of the bad old days some of
the OEM's Signature Edition PCs aren't ever quite one-for-one comparable
models to their website/direct sales (or even to some of the other stores they
sell in). It has long been the case that manufacturers have slightly different
model numbers and subtly different configurations for every single retail
channel they interact with so you can't always tell if you are getting a good
deal or not.

There also is a case that some of the manufacturers do get enough advertising
kickbacks from the junk they bundle with the computer that you do see some of
that "savings" passed back to you as a consumer with the premium added to the
Signature Editions.

So far as I'm aware (merely as a consumer) Signature Edition does seem to
require a clean EFI image as well. I've seen reports that things like Lenovo's
EFI problems are things the Signature Edition team screens for (for instance
this PC Mag article specifically mentioning Superfish [1]), but I can't tell
you how thoroughly they check, just that I feel sure they try.

[1] [http://www.pcworld.com/article/2887213/microsofts-
signature-...](http://www.pcworld.com/article/2887213/microsofts-signature-
edition-laptops-deliver-the-clean-pc-experience-you-really-want.html)

------
santaclaus
Does Xcode come with touch bar support? Custom debugging controls could be
cool.

~~~
paws
Yes, 8.1 and later[1]

[1]
[https://developer.apple.com/library/content/releasenotes/Dev...](https://developer.apple.com/library/content/releasenotes/DeveloperTools/RN-
Xcode/Introduction.html)

------
Selfcommit
The comment "15-inch Pros have enough thermal headroom to fit in quad-core
Skylake processors..."

is interesting.

While the current offerings don't meet expectations set for the MBP... maybe
this is a long play by Apple?

How quickly will the disappointment be forgotten when 32 gig / quadcore /
nvidia GPU's are released?

~~~
headcanon
Apple's definitely playing the long game here. When the retinas came out, the
absence of an ethernet port was a bit inconvenient for me, but now I don't
miss it at all. It's possible that in a few years, when this model matures and
goes down in price, the touch bar gets more wide support, and everything uses
USB-C, then it will make a lot more sense to get one.

~~~
BinaryIdiot
Yeah I'm very convinced this is going to happen. At the same time, at least
for me, I can't afford to wait for this utopia of single-connectors. I need to
be able to plug in my daily cords and the last time I had to deal with dongles
I lost them all over the place.

I do think it was a big misstep that their flagship, brand new phone can't
connect to their flagship, brand new laptop without an adapter that has to be
bought separately. I also think they could have done it in a more phased
approach without losing anything. But ultimately it will turn out to be a good
decision.

~~~
thefalcon
When was the last time you plugged your iPhone in to your computer? I don't
think I've ever plugged my current phone in to my computer since syncs and
backs up to the cloud anyway for me.

~~~
BinaryIdiot
I haven't in years but everyone who isn't technically savvy in my family still
does. I don't know if that's indicative of anything larger than my anecdote
but I work with people who are very involved with technology who still sync
all of their stuff, with a cord, using iTunes and their iPhone 6s / 7.

No idea how common this is but I feel like it's common enough that it should
have been handled better.

------
raarts
Weird that I can't find a review anywhere that compares the battery life of
the 2013 macbook air with the new $1499 macbook pro. Anyone know of one?

~~~
spronkey
The 2013 Air has a the same size battery as the non-touchbar model, a lower
power GPU, the same TDP CPU. The display is possibly more efficient on the new
pro compared to the older display, but it's got many more pixels, so, I'd give
the nod to the Air, but they ought to be close.

------
digi_owl
Classic Cunningham...

------
rch
> I use 13-inch laptops almost exclusively these days

Stopped reading the review at this point.

~~~
threeseed
Why ? Most office workers for example only untether their laptops when going
to meetings. They are every bit as "power user" as those who use a 15 inch
laptop.

~~~
rch
Interesting. I guess my workflow and concerns are a little different since I
often work without benefit of an attached monitor, and my meetings start by
logging into whatever computer is in the conference room. If I'm at my desk,
I'm working on hardware that's well beyond what I'd expect from any laptop.

The 'thinner, lighter' perspective just doesn't fit well with my particular
requirements.

