
Airbnb asks people to donate money to landlords, backlash ensues - koolba
https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Airbnb-asks-people-to-donate-money-to-hosts-15407730.php
======
sleavey
This was really short sighted given Airbnb have claimed since the beginning to
regulators, local authorities and the public that they exist only to provide a
platform for people to rent out their spare rooms when it's convenient for
them. Their core claim is that they are not a hotel company, which is how they
manage to skirt so many hotel regulations. Built into these claims is the
assumption that the owners of the properties offered on the platform can
afford to keep them without renting then out full time, since it's supposed to
be their primary home.

In reality, Airbnb is a glorified hotel room broker but with added
facilitation of discrimination, normalisation of the charging of extra fees
such as for "cleaning" (how have hotels managed to get by since time
immemorial without charging one!?), rating obfuscation and a huge negative
impact on local rental prices with landlords assembling empires of dozens of
Airbnb properties. The fact Airbnb were so tone deaf to all this, asking the
public to offset the losses made by landlords in times like these is really
incredible.

~~~
monkeynotes
I have somewhat of a 'not in my backyard' opinion of Airbnb. I have admittedly
used the service multiple times, but since I moved into a new house I've
changed my view on the business model.

Our neighbour Airbnbs multiple rooms in his house full time. He barely has
parking for 3 cars, 2 cars if you don't want to be boxed in. However he rents
out room for 6 people. He constantly has business moving through his house,
occasionally his guests encroach on our driveway which is adjacent to his.

The city has not been able to catch up with the modern world and has no policy
or licensing for Airbnb style businesses.

The pandemic has had zero impact on his ability to rent out rooms, it's always
full.

TLDNR: I wish I had a neighbour and not a business next to me in a
residentially zoned street.

/rant

~~~
ericpauley
Have you looked into reporting a zoning violation? The operation may violate
existing laws relating to rental permitting or commercial use.

~~~
monkeynotes
We've called the city and consulted with a friend who worked in planning.
Basically they said they have no structure of vetting and dealing with Airbnb.
I don't think it's even on their agenda.

~~~
skbly7
Have you tried talking to your neighbour about the issue or adding a small A4
print saying "No Parking"?

------
mathattack
This seems counter-productive. Housing costs are up because of AirBnB. I’m not
thrilled, but that’s the market. The market needs to reprice. Folks who bet on
the market would get rich if the bet paid off. Let them sell their places, and
someone else can rent them out in the future.

Call me callous but I don’t feel the need to bail out someone who charged me
$500/night on a place with a $3000 monthly payment. I entered the transaction
freely, and the transaction is over.

~~~
mchusma
Housing costs are not up because of Airbnb, they are up because of government
regulation. If we wanted housing to cost to buy a house in the US to be $100k
average, we could do it almost overnight by lifting regulations unrelated to
safety. With existing automation tech (produce like industry instead of custom
each time) we could get it to $50k. In 10 years we could make housing
affordable if we had the societal will.

I think you can make many arguments that being more expensive is worth it
(more free parking is an example of what is included in the price of a home
today), but there is no technical reason homes cannot be very inexpensive. You
can also argue it's a "feature not a bug" from existing homeowners, who work
to reduce supply (zoning, NIMBY, etc).

~~~
nicoburns
> Housing costs are not up because of Airbnb

I think they are partially. In London, rents have decreased 25%-50% since
COVID. Part of that will be reduced demand. But I have also seen a _lot_ of
rooms advertised for long-term rental that were previously Airbnbs.

We could certainly ameliorate this by building more houses. But here in the UK
we're a lot more limited by available land space than you are in the US. And
while there is limited supply it makes sense to prioritise making primary
dwellings affordable over profit making for landlords.

~~~
DINKDINK
>> Housing costs are not up because of Airbnb

>I think they are partially.

You're mistaking housing _costs_ with prices. Housing costs are the input
prices of components that entrepreneurs accept or reject to produce housing.

Such as: * price materials producers demand for their products (concrete,
wood, electrical wire etc) * the labor prices, labor sellers demand
(Carpenters, iron workers, etc) * the prices land owners demand to either keep
land undeveloped or developed * the prices state agents demand to abstain from
interfering with home building.

Consumption can't drive up a producer's input costs. Consumers may abstain
from purchasing from a producer unless the producer meets different inputs ("I
demand you only buy the labor of architects who live near me and not people
far away").

~~~
nicoburns
"housing costs" can also refer to the cost to the consumer in order to obtain
housing. I think everyone in this thread is talking about what you refer to as
"prices" rather than what you refer to as "costs".

------
throwaway0a5e
You know who's still paying their rent on time?

The government.

The section 8 landlords are enjoying some serious schadenfreude right now
because even though they only cash small checks once a month they're the only
ones still cashing checks at all.

Short term rentals have an effective monthly rent far in excess of the normal
monthly rent for equivalent accommodations. With this payoff comes risk. The
money source can dry up on you much faster. I have no more sympathy for people
who went all in on AirBNB than I do for people who went all in on day trading.

~~~
yardie
This has been kept secret for years. Landlords that know what they are doing
go after those section 8 contracts. Most people wouldn't be able to recognize
a section 8 renter if they were standing right in front of them.

My old apartment, complete with modern amenities, had section 8 renters. It
was targeted towards young professionals. But new construction made it 100%
ADA-compliant. Which is perfect for wheelchair bound social security-
disability check receivers. According to the property manager, "no problem
with section, unlike you, they always pay rent on time!"

~~~
wow_no
This this this. Most Section 8 renters are elderly or disabled, nothing like
the stereotypes.

Section 8 is a fantastic program that deserves more credit for avoiding the
issues that plague the Projects.

------
setgree
I would prefer a world in which we didn't call some people griping on twitter
"news".

Two popular HN pieces have recently touched on how journalists and newspapers
give twitter too much weight:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23833267](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23833267)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23827073](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23827073)

All I'm seeing in this article is a few people trying to get that dopamine
rush of engagement by dunking on "landlords" (not that all AirBnB hosts are
landlords, some are just folks renting an extra room out), and sfgate happily
obliging them.

~~~
mdszy
"some are just folks renting an extra room out"

That's a landlord.

~~~
setgree
I think I should have said "full-time" or "professional" landlord. I had
thought that the word had a connotation of it being a full-time gig, but I was
wrong.

------
malechimp
Being a regular customer in a very hot market (Dublin) I can attest that most
of the places I've been to were grossly overpriced and let's not speak about
the quality.

Back in the fat cows era (up until a few months ago) it seemed that Airbnb was
synonymous to "if you have a spare doghouse in a hot overpriced market then
you can make very good money out of it". Not to mention how airbnb was
contributing to such markets to get even more overpriced by causing shortages.

And now they are urging customers to sponsor hosts...

Yup. Definitely someone there must have lost it entirely.

~~~
Raed667
They must be so disconnected that they feel their hosts and guests are
actually having a meaningful connection. Most of my Airbnb interactions don't
go beyond the exchange of keys (or not even that with the key boxes).

I have no sympathy for landlords or Airbnb, they are just going to have to
deal with the market like everyone else.

~~~
rrrazdan
I know your comment is for the majority but I have had meaningful connections
with my hosts. Some I am still in touch years later.

If the host reached out to me on their own, I would probably help them. But to
have Airbnb guilt trip people into donating is beyond me as well.

~~~
malechimp
I think we are mistaking Airbnb for couchsurf.

Even in the cases when I met my hosts the transaction was 100% monetary one.
Not one of them, ever, offered me to stay some more free of charge - just
because we got along well. And I did get along well with all of them. On the
contrary, I _have_ slept _on the floor_ at a friends house a few nights
because some of these hosts hanged me at the last moment (e.g. when they
realized that my flight was coming in too late for them).

Don't take me wrong. I'm not venting here. It took me a while to realize it
myself, that Airbnb is not couchsurfing. It is a market. And a hard one at
that. That's fine by me but donations are not part of such markets.

~~~
rrrazdan
It is possible to have a decent caring relationship on top of a commercial
one. I have restaurant owners who I have a really warm relationship with. I
know about their family, they enquire about mine. They will not give me a free
meal and neither do I expect one. Same with some shops that I frequent.

Airbnb is certainly a market. So are restaurants. You do see people supporting
their local restaurants in this crisis don't you?

~~~
sharkmerry
> Airbnb is certainly a market. So are restaurants. You do see people
> supporting their local restaurants in this crisis don't you?

Yes, people are patrons of restaurants, because restaurants are still
providing food.

------
freeAgent
It’s amazing to me that Airbnb tells people that it’s up to them to determine
if their contributions are tax deductible. Why would they even write this?
Hosts on Airbnb are for-profit enterprises. I’ve never heard or a registered
non-profit running Airbnb rentals. What are they thinking?

~~~
evancox100
I was baffled by this too. Maybe in the initial testing people saw this and
this question came up? Probably very few people overall know how this stuff
works.

~~~
ma2rten
Or maybe their lawyers told them to write that it's not tax deductible and
then a marketing person wrote this.

------
danpalmer
I wonder if AirBnB knows how delusional they are about their own product?

They originally pitched it on a social message – stay with other people who
enjoy travelling like you, sometimes you'll rent a room from someone, other
times you'll rent out your room. Everyone cares about making this a great
_community_.

However this is far from what they've become – most rooms/properties are full-
time AirBnB rooms, many managed by management companies trying to skim as much
profit as they can, and rented out by professional short-term landlords who
clearly don't care about the community.

In the former product, I can imagine having a connection to some hosts, I can
imagine emailing them to see if I could book a floating credit for some nights
next year or tipping a fair bit more on a booking.

But that's not AirBnB. I've not stayed in a single place like that. Surely
AirBnB must know what their product actually is? Does that mean this
communication is just gaslighting customers into thinking they're something
different?

------
Raed667
I got prompted to donate to a host I stayed with for a few days and only saw
once many-many months ago.

Heck NO! What is their reasoning here!? I have zero emotional connection with
that person. Nor do I think they are entitled to my charity.

~~~
ponyous
So don't donate?

I've been in AirBnB hosts where the landlady would make deserts for us and all
kinds of stuff, just because she was nice and bored. We enjoyed it very much
and I would tip her via AirBnb - she didn't want cash, except once - pre-
agreed for multi course meal where she fed a group of 4, and it was pretty
much just for the resources.

There was a guy in SF that took me around shown me the city, etc... I enjoyed
this too and would tip him.

I have more examples of that.

~~~
mateus1
Why would you donate money to people who are houseowners and up until few
months ago were racking in profits by renting?

This is not even charity, it's just pointless.

~~~
zenexer
There are hosts who aren’t abusing AirBnB—they’re just uncommon. When you do
get one, you know it. I can see why people would want to tip in those cases,
especially if you’re paying significantly less than a nearby hotel for much
greater value, and often a personalized experience. But it’s rare.

That doesn’t change the fact that AirBnB has a big problem, and what they’re
doing here is tone-deaf. Yeah, tips might make sense sometimes, but fix the
problem before you start soliciting tips.

~~~
mateus1
I don't mean the hosts on AirBnB are all bad.

I mean it's insane for a multibillion dollar company passing the hat for
homeowners. Both sides aren't charity cases.

------
pavel_lishin
> _Airbnb has lost its fucking head. Why would I donate to my host? I can 't
> even afford one house._

Well, at least it sounds like many of those hosts can't, either.

~~~
kozhevnikov
Other articles of this topic mentioned this titbit:

> The financial situation is especially dire for megahosts, some of whom
> bought up dozens of properties and built short-term-rental empires that made
> up their main source of income (about one-third of Airbnb hosts have more
> than 25 properties, according to the analytics site AirDNA).

[https://www.businessinsider.com/airbnb-asking-renters-to-
don...](https://www.businessinsider.com/airbnb-asking-renters-to-donate-
kindness-cards-backlash-2020-7)

~~~
sleavey
The attitude of many people towards property is incredible. People expect
house prices to rise and rise and somehow think they've been wronged by
society/government policy/acts of god if the bubble bursts and they lose
money. I've been called out by many ordinarily level headed people for saying
that owning property is a risky investment.

~~~
Nasrudith
It isn't just property but also jobs and industries. Look at the vastly
disproportionate amount of tears for coal miners. That feeling seems to apply
to any way to make a living that they react hostility to being told is risky.
Because everything is an investment and everything is a risk including not
taking one.

I suspect it has to do with Calvinism essentially and the religious fixation
of work as righteous and a guarantee such that anything going wrong is "bad
things happening to good people" and a fundamental sign that things Aren't
Right and Someone is to blame.

~~~
bagacrap
I'd rather live in a society that held work as righteous rather than idleness.
It seems to be a problem currently that we're paying many workers more to stay
home than they'd normally make on the job, and their personal attitudes
towards work are not enough to overcome this inverse monetary incentive. As
Musk put it, the economy is not just a free flowing cornucopia of "stuff" that
everyone has to squabble over. You gotta make "stuff".

Coal miners, to switch careers, probably have to uproot their lives, move to
another state, and take a much lower paying job. It seems obvious why they'd
resent being told to do that. Lucky for me software is going pretty good, but
if you told me I had to go install solar panels on a roof in Scottsdale
tomorrow I might be upset.

~~~
dhosek
If someone makes less money working than they do on unemployment, the problem
isn't that the unemployment payment is too generous, it's that their wages are
too low.

~~~
xsmasher
"Someone makes less money working than they do on unemployment" isn't enough
information to figure out which one is out of whack.

------
mattbee
I'm a UK-based host & was _mortified_ to hear they were going to ask guests
for tips by default. I rushed to disable the checkbox before any guests got
asked. Absolutely 100% what were they smoking.

------
netsharc
> In response to the backlash a spokesperson from Airbnb told SFGATE, “during
> this challenging time we heard from many Airbnb guests who were interested
> in supporting and reconnecting with past hosts. In the spirit of rekindling
> connections, we developed a new feature that allows guests to send virtual
> cards with messages of support and encouragement to hosts who provided
> excellent hospitality. If they wish, guests have the option to add a
> voluntary financial contribution.”

I wish journalists would stop rehashing PR bullshit that don't answer the
question. I look forward to an article that rephrases the above to something
like: "In response to the backlash a spokesperson from Airbnb SFGATE offered a
PR line which did not address the question.".

------
treebornfrog
I suspect that a lot of people jumped on the airbnb hype train and thought
they could be a landlord of multiple properties and probably got leveraged.

Now they're in trouble as their income dries up.

~~~
tirpen
> Now they're in trouble as their income dries up.

Good.

~~~
throwaway98797
Serves them right for taking a risk.

~~~
rrrrrrrrrrrryan
It serves them right for driving up rents and housing costs in their cities,
which contributes to homelessness.

It's a watered down version of the same schadenfreude people felt when the
guys that hoarded warehouses full of N95 masks got burned. They made a large
investment and took a risk, but their speculation was at the expense of the
wider community, so they shouldn't be surprised when the community had no pity
on them when their investment didn't work out.

------
gadders
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Chesky](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Chesky)
[AirBnB Co Founder] - Net Worth: $4.1billion

Yeah, I'll chip in some extra after working all year for my two weeks in the
sun. The fucking entitlement of Silicon Valley is unbelievable.

------
ws66
This to me looks like another form of privatizing profits, and socializing
losses [1].

[1] [https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/privatizing-profits-
and...](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/privatizing-profits-and-
socializing-losses.asp)

------
cowllin
One of the few here it seems who is actually an Airbnb host (a Superhost
actually).

For three years, I've managed my grandma's home in Wisconsin as a way to
generate income for her and allow the house to stay in the family. It has been
our vacation home for four generations and we certainly would have sold it by
now if not for Airbnb income during the months of June, August, September each
year.

I am trying to earn enough to buy the home and then will continue Airbnb'ing
(keeping July for family time) to pay much of the mortgage.

Just an anecdote admittedly, but hopefully one demonstrating that not all
hosts are evil landlords, and I would not be surprised if some of our (repeat)
annual guests _were_ interested in sending us a card/support because of the
relationships we've worked to build and maintain with them.

~~~
mattmanser
I can't really understand how you see yourself as 'good' in these
circumstances?

Look at it from another perspective. You've got a property sitting empty for
most of the year, driving up property values, so you can have a holiday on e a
year.

You're making poor use of that property, and you want people to give you
money, even though you could sell it? You need Zero help, you are not in a
position of needing food, your children hungry, or being kicked out of your
home. You create no, or at least negligible, employment for others.

You essentially think people would want to give you money so you can go on
holiday next July?

~~~
cowllin
Mostly fair points, but figured I'd clarify a bit.

"You've got a property sitting empty for most of the year, driving up property
values, so you can have a jolly holiday."

My grandmother (the homeowner) lives there more than 6 months each year. She
spends the rest of her time in a retirement community.

It's a town with <500 people that swells 10x during summer months, there is
very low demand besides vacation homes due to lack of nearby schools,
healthcare, etc.

We have two maintenance people and one cleaner from the local community that
we partner with; it is extremely common to have these "old school" side gigs
up there as it is such a vacation-driven community.

~~~
mattmanser
Yeah, the truth is usually somewhere in the middle, although here in the UK
those sort of holiday homes have become a real blight on our rural
communities.

------
treebornfrog
The second order effects are catastrophic too.

Think of all the companies that built their entire business model around
helping airbnb owners manage their bookings / rental

For examples,hostmaker, which was heavily advertising in London (transport
mainly) has gone bankrupt (1). They raised ~24M (2)

(1) [https://hostmaker.com/gb/london/](https://hostmaker.com/gb/london/) (2)
[https://angel.co/company/hostmaker/funding](https://angel.co/company/hostmaker/funding)

~~~
chupy
Do you think we should also start donating to them?

~~~
treebornfrog
Not at all, just adding to the fact that 1) hosts were leveraged and are
hurting. 2) entire companies are going bankrupt because their model is based
mainly on airbnb demand.

------
spuz
I really wonder how much pressure AirBnB must be feeling from hosts in order
to go through with this idea. There's no way that they have done thinking it
would not have some downsides. I really would like to know how they calculated
that going through with this idea would be a better option than doing nothing.

~~~
randomsearch
My thoughts too. But why does Airbnb care? Presumably the landlords will just
come back or be replaced, and it’s not like they have shown concern for ethics
in a long time.

~~~
dwater
AirBNB are hoping for quick reopening and a "V-shaped recovery". They want
things to get back to normal as quickly as possible, because the longer the
current situation drags on for, the more their business and billions of
invested money is at risk. They won't be able to do a quick reopening if 1/4
or 1/2 of the properties they list are being foreclosed on. That process can
take multiple years for a property to be occupied again.

~~~
randomsearch
Right, so the bit I was missing here is that you're saying the properties
won't be quickly re-listed or replaced by other landlords. Thanks.

------
mnm1
The expansion of tipping culture has been here for awhile. This particular
instance generated outrage, but usually people comply. First it was
restaurants because in some states waiters don't even make minimum wage. Then
it became almost all restaurants, regardless of whether the employees legally
make minimum wage before tips or not. Now it's ride sharing. And food trucks.
Anywhere they have Square. As if handing the food through the food truck
window is somehow worthy of a tip. Ice cream shops. Food delivery. In addition
to exorbitant fees and overpriced items, a tip is still required or the driver
is likely not even making money. I can accept this during the pandemic since
the driver is risking their life, but outside, every single one of these cases
is preposterous.

The underlying issue is that companies are allowed to not pay employees enough
and often are allowed to classify employees as contractors. Unless you're
easily paying your health insurance out of pocket (premiums, deductible, and
out of pocket max), there's no way one should be classified as a contractor.
It's absurd to think people making whatever uber offers have control over
their lives and their work. It's tiring that these multi-billion dollar
companies as refusing to pay living wages and externalizing their pay onto
their customers.

Unfortunately, the only recourse is to not tip and this, like so many things,
hurts the workers more than their companies. But what else to do? In a society
where learned helplessness is the norm and that has no practical way of
addressing one's concerns, boycotting remains the only viable action. What am
I going to do? Sue? Write my representative? Please. Let's not be delusional.
Hopefully if employees suffer enough, they might unionize, and claw back power
for themselves. Or these business will go out of business. It's sad, but
that's what it seems to take.

------
sdinsn
If landlords need money, they can always sell their properties. Lowering the
cost of living would be the best thing for the average person.

------
wil421
> “during this challenging time we heard from many Airbnb guests who were
> interested in supporting and reconnecting with past hosts.”

I call BS. No way they implemented this feature because people wanted to give
money to past hosts.

------
eanzenberg
This is hilarious, and I’m sure will be as popular as paying extra taxes on
your return when your state asks to donate because your heart feels it.

I’m surprised airbnb is still around. Hotels have been as expensive or cheaper
the past 3 years of booking. Why would anyone pay the same to have to deal
with rando stranger creeps at odd hours for check-in is beyond me. Knowing
there’s a front desk 24/7 is piece of mind.

~~~
aembleton
So that you can have a kitchen.

------
thealistra
Wouldn't it be a better idea to have some CTA for like future booking or
booking voucher so the hosts can get money now for a future service? So you
know if someone really likes a place and visits it every year can spare a few
bucks if they can to freeze it

~~~
julianlam
Honest question, how is this different from just booking in advance?

~~~
Jetroid
Presumably because with the current Pandemic, a lot of people don't know when
they will travel next, so can't really pick a date to book.

The intent here seems to be to ensure that your favourite family-owned chalet
can weather the pandemic without you necessariliy going there any time soon.

------
claudeganon
I wonder how much of Airbnb is a retread of 2008, where you have people
massively over-leveraged on rental properties that they could never afford
without constant, growing bookings.

------
thunkshift1
They tried to follow in foot steps of uber eats which asked consumers to
donate to restaurants earlier during the lockdown. Airbnb doing the same is
definitely not okay, but why there wasnt a similar hue and cry for uber doing
it.

------
jamesholden
ha.. haha.. haaaahahahahahahahahah No but seriously, Airbnb what were you
thinking.

------
mesozoic
I bet they were going to take a cut to keep themselves alive.

------
svntid
they indeed have lost their mind

------
chenpengcheng
is this thread locked?

------
codecamper
I guess AirBNB founders got tired of being interrupted during sushi.

------
lorsting
The world as a whole is fucked up real good if a plea to donate is causing so
much drama. Or is it that during these times only the crazy get promoted in
front?

~~~
bagacrap
There are a lot of worthwhile, needy causes, but a for profit business is not
one of them. Especially considering the amount of collateral damage airbnb has
caused in various markets. If property owners are forced to sell at a loss, so
be it. There's a theme here with various industries, such as airlines (save
LUV), where they choose to operate with zero piggy bank/ margin for error, and
when shit hits the fan they're immediately bankrupt. Fiscal irresponsibility
should not be rewarded with handouts, imo. It does rile me a bit to even hear
the suggestion that it should.

------
cwhiz
This is outrage porn, not news. Absolutely pointless article that has nothing
to do with technology, at all.

