
I can build an forever-free and anonymous personal finance web app - adrian_pop
I&#x27;ve always wanted to control my finance, to know where goes my money and one important thing: forecasting. All sites that I&#x27;ve found over this feature as a paid one. Well, listen my plan:<p>#1. completely free personal finance (home budgeting) web app<p>#2. most web apps offer overcomplicated interfaces; I think I can create a much more simpler version with the exact needed features<p>#3. my app will not connect to your bank account<p>#4. with the possibility to attach documents to your transactions, you have all the control of your files (they will be hosted on your own google drive&#x2F;dropbox account)<p>#5. ONLY oauth login with your google&#x2F;dropbox account (login =&gt; a connection is made to your dropbox account, logout =&gt; connection closed, tokens destroyed).<p>#6. Hack-free web app<p>#7. Provide most useful features for a home budgeting app.<p>I am still thinking how to monetize this, because I don&#x27;t want to put up any ad network (at least annual costs: 15$ domain + 120$ hosting)<p>What do you think of my plan? Would it worth pursuing?
I have no interest in knowing who you are, where you live, your name, address or any other personal info.
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Delmania
Look at YNAB.

However, what are you trying to forecast here? In terms of personal finance,
the single most important thing to get right is the budget, which is more
about planning, and not about forecasting. Everything else is nice, but unless
you've got a solid budget module, the app will useless.

However: > #3. my app will not connect to your bank account

Make sure you can process OFX, QFX, and QIF files so that users can clear
transactions and reconcile accounts.

> #6. Hack-free web app Big claim.

>I am still thinking how to monetize this, because I don't want to put up any
ad network (at least annual costs: 15$ domain + 120$ hosting)

Why do you think forecasting is a paid feature? Your value proposition to me
is not that it's free. It's the level of anonymity you offer.

~~~
adrian_pop
1\. YNAB is over complicated (just mho), but still has stuccess.

2\. Forecasting (more like planning): at this moment I have X in my account. I
have a big event in about 90 days from now. I want the app to "learn" from my
past months transactions(expenses & income), create a spending pattern and
give me some scenarios: the optimist, pessimist and the probable one.

Currently I am trying this in excel...but doesn't work as planned. I want the
app to be able "think" in advance.

Eg. you set a goal: $3,000 cash in next 3 months. Then the app should do:
check what you did in the past 3 months, check last year on this time if you
have any insurance to cover (car, house...etc, yearly recurring transactions)
and the result should be: well, you can't gather $3,000 because you might
spend them on: X, Y, Z. If you eliminate one of them, you reach your goal.
Some kind of rudimentary artificial intelligence.

3\. thanks for OFX, QFX and QIF.

4\. Honestly, I want to build something that matters. I think I can support
these yearly costs, even with a donate button (no ads).

5\. Everywhere the forecasting/planning feature is a paid one.

6\. As I initially said, I am trying to plan it as anonymous as possible: the
data will be tied to an oauth userID, nothing more.

~~~
Delmania
Taking a step back, who is your target audience?

YNAB is probably one of the simplest budgeting applications in the market.
It's successful because it only does budgeting, has extensive training, has a
strong community, and emphasizes fiscal responsibility as a lifestyle.
However, it's aim is for people who realize they need a budget, but don't know
how to do it.

> 4\. Honestly, I want to build something that matters. I think I can support
> these yearly costs, even with a donate button (no ads).

I think we all do, but if you set out to build "something that matters",
you're setting yourself up for massive disappointment. Either define a market
and build for them, or build the tool for yourself, and tell others about it.
Before you can make $100, you need to make $1.

Your comments about forecasting are interesting. The biggest issue with it is
variability. You can develop a plan to make $3000 in 3 months, but then have
an unexpected car repair that your car repair fund can't fully cover. However,
I don't think that's a strong enough argument to deter you from doing it.

I guess my questions would be how strong are you at budgeting and ML?

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mplewis
For me, the key benefit of Mint and BillGuard is that they link to my bank
account and categorize my transactions automatically. I have never been
disciplined enough to enter transactions by hand.

~~~
adrian_pop
I know both of them are 99.99999% safe, but honestly I don't trust any web app
to connect to my bank account(I don't own piles of cash/zeros there).

~~~
gohrt
The sad thing is that the main risk is that banks use the same token for Read
access as ReadWrite access to your accounts. There's no need for that; OAuth
solved this problem years ago.

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onion2k
_my app will not connect to your bank account_

Without that feature you're expecting users to manually type all their
transactions in to your app. Users, especially people who aren't already good
at keeping track of their money, are often too lazy to enter data well, so any
forecast you do based on their inputs will be wrong.

The pain point with managing your personal finances is maintaining a good
record of the data. That's what you need to solve.

~~~
Delmania
If people don't want to manually enter in transactions, they're not interested
in personal finance, they want a fire and forget solution that tells them if
they have enough money to buy something.

The reason that people need to manually enter in transactions is to they
understand the operating balance, not the physical balance. When I pay my
mortgage, there's a delay from when I submit the request to the lender to when
the lender draws the money. For the duration of those days, the money may be
in the account, but I need to ensure my finances take that into account.
Otherwise, I'll submit a transaction, forget about, then buy something, and
run into a bounced check or overdraft fee.

~~~
smeyer
I disagree. I don't care about a difference of a few days one way or the
other, because I keep enough cash in my checking account that I'm never in
danger of bouncing a check or not having money for a big purchase. However, I
do care about my finances.

For example, I often examine my spending over a period of a few months to see
how I'm spending my money and decide whether I want to make adjustments to my
spending habits or budgeting. I can (and sometimes do) do this by exporting a
CSV from my bank's website, but I like the convenience of using tools like
Mint and letting them auto-categorize my transactions.

~~~
ryandrake
It's almost as if... different people use financial tracking software in
different ways!

To me, not connecting to bank account(s) is a deal breaker, and I would have
no use for such a product. I've used (and suffered with) Quicken for years and
years because 1) it connects and downloads from every bank/investment account
I have ever had, 2) its interface is bearable, and 3) my data is stored
offline. I probably use about 2% of Quicken's features, but I can't do without
them. I don't use any of the budgeting features, the bill pay features, the
integration with tax software, etc. I just want to get a big picture overview
of my accounts, watch for fraudulent transactions, and not worry that my all
my data is online and ready to be compromised or lost.

If there was an alternative to Quicken that satisfied the above 3
requirements, I'd consider switching, and I would definitely be willing pay
for such software.

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stephengillie
This actually sounds like a bunch of features I won't use, and you're
excluding the features that I would want. I assume I'm not your target
audience.

1\. Nothing is free. Even if you provide it for free, there is still
awareness, evaluation, switching costs, and long-term trust (that you will
remain motivated in supporting this project across the next few years)

2\. I think I can create a self-driving robot. If you think you can create a
simpler interface, create a simpler interface. Put your money where your mouth
is. Pics or it didn't happen.

3\. If your service doesn't talk to my bank, how will it know where I'm
spending my money? I've got better things to do than data entry.

4\. What documents of my transactions? Do you mean your app will OCR my debit
receipts? I'm paperless and try to avoid receipts, so I'd rather just have you
talk to my bank.

5\. Oh, I don't have to trust you with my bank info, but I have to trust you
to login with my Dropbox/Google info? Those creds are more valuable to me. Why
not just do local storage to a local Dropbox?

6\. Accident-proof car!

7\. Features like?

I don't mean to completely shoot you down; I merely want to deflate you a
little. This granstanding post is quite the brag, but without substance it's
meaningless.

~~~
adrian_pop
1\. Free for the user, not for me

2\. pics will come with a landing page

3\. If you have better things to do, than personal finance or planning, you
don't need this service

4\. documents = bills. I add an entry: electric bill - 100$, but the interface
where I pay it keeps only my last 6 bills, not everything, so I want them
stored automatically somewhere/

5\. I don't need your dropbox/google info. You click a login button, redirect
to oauth interface, login on the oauth server then come back to me with a
token.

It's not shooting down, it's reality, it's the reason I posted this.

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wumbernang
Sounds reasonable but three points:

1\. It's not anonymous. The ledger is enough to identify someone.

2\. It's not 100% better than my current spreadsheet (one tab a month for the
coming 6 months).

3\. There's no motivation not to close it after a month I.e. no contract

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heimatau
Any idea that you are this passionate about, is worth endeavoring. Built it,
learn some things and relish any measure of success. Happy coding!

~~~
erikbigelow
Yeah, what he said.

If what you're building is something you'd use then it's probably something
others would use.

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tcfunk
I have considered doing this myself. I have used Mint for a long time, but
more and more I feel they are trying to push other services on me. Not to
mention it doesn't 100% fit my use case. I have also investigated other
solutions, like YNAB as someone else mentioned, but never was impressed enough
by them to spend money.

Ultimately, I decided I wasn't worried about it enough to dump my own time
into it, but if it's something you're passionate about I'd say go for it, and
I wish you luck!

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johnsocs
I'm actually a YNAB user. My wife and I started using it recently and really
enjoy application. The budgeting system works perfect but there are a few
features I wish it did have.

1\. Target goals - Take the thinking out of saving for a target, you should be
able to tell the system I want to save x in y time and it should tell you
exactly what you need and if you adjust your budget when the new target date
will be.

2\. I want to be able to enter my bills into the system when the arrive at my
house and have it remind me to pay them X days before they are due. I don't
want the paper bills sitting on / in my desk until I pay them (QuickBooks can
do this).

Also checkout: [https://www.everydollar.com/](https://www.everydollar.com/)

I believe Dave Ramsey and his people have put this together is free unless you
want bank connection BUT still makes the end user think and do some work. I a
totally automated system is BAD as people put their fiances on autopilot..
this SHOULD require some work.

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zuzuleinen
I also built a more slighter version for my personal use. You can check it out
at [http://www.moneytablet.com/](http://www.moneytablet.com/).

I know, UX is poor and options are poor but for me is perfect. I used it for
over a year now, and it's useful enough to pay 5$/month on a digital ocean
droplet.

~~~
adrian_pop
Way to basic for me. Good luck.

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patcon
Step one could be to define an open data format for personal budget data, like
todo.txt for finances :)

Then you can simply submit PR's to current system open finance tracking apps,
and you can sync state between with dropbox or syncthing or seafile or
whatever

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sdipchikov
I’ve already built something similar to that 5 years ago. Currently it is only
for Bulgarian’s local market, but it is behaving well in terms of popularity
given the fact that I haven’t invested a single penny in SEO or marketing.

[http://mypocket.bg/](http://mypocket.bg/)

You can check it out (use google translate to get the idea) we can partner in
going international I’m now looking to raise an investment to rebuild and
expand it. stoyan@dipchikov.com

~~~
gii2
You did good job. The web is fine, the mobile interface is limited, there is
no mobile app. But my overall impression is quite positive. (I've been using
the app for few months now)

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sandwell
Would you support importing transactions or bank statements?

How do I access my finances if I'm out and about with no internet connection?
Or if I forgot to pay my fiber bill?

~~~
adrian_pop
There won't be an "importt feature" from bank statement. As I said in the
post, I don't want to operate with personal/sensitive informations.

Let's be serious, we all have internet connection most of the time. When
there's no connection, there could be a mobile app (long wait till there).

And no, I don't want the app to pay your bills. You just add: $50, internet
bill (attach the pdf/picture or pick one from drive/dropbox) and submit. and
meanwhile the document will be uploaded to your drive/dropbox.

~~~
sandwell
> There won't be an "importt feature" from bank statement.

YNAB's budgeting philosophy discourages importing data from your bank
statement because it disconnects the user from the individual transaction that
take place. They ended up adding support for CSV/OFX/QIF because people wanted
it.

> As I said in the post, I don't want to operate with personal/sensitive
> informations.

All financial data is personal and sensitive, whether imported or manually
entered.

> Let's be serious, we all have internet connection most of the time.

Most of the time, not all of the time. Especially not in rural areas. I regard
my personal finances as pretty important, so not being able to access my
budget because I don't have an internet connection is a big problem.

> And no, I don't want the app to pay your bills.

Apologies I didn't phrase that right. I meant: What if I forget to pay my
internet bill, then can't access my personal finance app to see if I can
afford to pay my internet bill?

~~~
adrian_pop
> Apologies I didn't phrase that right. I meant: What if I forget to pay my
> internet bill, then can't access my personal finance app to see if I can
> afford to pay my internet bill?

You go to a good friend who'll let you use his computer for 3 mins, check your
finance: u have money? pay the ne; no money, ask him :P

The other solution would be to go to the ATM and check your balance :P

------
boothead
If you're going to do this, a lot of the guts are already available in the
form of [http://hledger.org/](http://hledger.org/) or [http://ledger-
cli.org/](http://ledger-cli.org/). (Can't remember the license offhand, but
you might be able to build on them)

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Grazester
So you want people to have to manually enter a transaction each time it
occurs? This means keeping receipts that can easily be lost along with
actually making the effort to do so. I dont see that happening.

Make it. If this is something you want to pursue then do so. You have nothing
to lose(I hope you don't at least).

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ryandrake
I would not use this app (due to #3) but best of luck and wishes for your
success. There are very few such apps/services out there, and this market is
in desperate need of disruption. I would love to see a real alternative to
Quicken/Mint emerge.

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barile
Doesnt look like a problem worth pursuing in 2015. Take a look at
[http://www.ledger-cli.org/](http://www.ledger-cli.org/) and their libraries
on github (there are haskell ports and a web frontend)

~~~
gohrt
Ledger is nor a solution to this problem.

> Ledger never creates or modifies your data. [...] no automated tool will
> ever change that data.

Therefore, Ledger is always stale, and only useful for obsessive stamp-
collectors.

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msallin
Hey man, I'm building something similar, I'd love to chat about it with you.
Used to work at Intuit, came up with this idea, I've been working on this for
5 years, full time for two.

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amirsonali
as someone in the fintech space I suggest you build it and check usage. I'd
totally pay for this if it can do exactly what you say and is secure. Don't
worry about the monetization. Any successful fintech app will get bought out,
or there are creative ways to monetize we can discuss later. Shoot me a
message if interested ali@sourced.fm

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faitswulff
Sounds like a candidate for sandstorm.io

~~~
adrian_pop
good idea.

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technicalfault
How would this compare to GNUcash, apart from it being on the web?

~~~
adrian_pop
Do you use GNUcash?

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hugocornejo
What do you think are those 'exact needed features'?

~~~
adrian_pop
I'll make a list and reply here. Do not forget to check.

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SeanAtkisson
I think that's a smacking great idea! Have you considered a freemium concept
where you could set a basic free package of features and then an enhanced set
of paid features?

~~~
adrian_pop
There are many ways to monetize a service, but I will try to keep it free.
Maybe a donation button :P

~~~
s73v3r
A donation button is a poor way to monetize. If you're actually proud of what
you've built, do not be afraid to ask money for it.

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s73v3r
I'm not gonna tell you not to go for it. However, the reason most of the other
apps connect to bank accounts is because that way they can actually get the
whole picture information that's needed to make them useful. How are you going
to get the transactions without connecting to their bank account? Have them
enter the transactions? I'm going to forget, and I might have far too many to
do by hand. I'll enter 3, mistype one, and then give up.

Also, the easiest way to monetize is for it to be paid. You did hard work; why
shouldn't you be paid for it?

