
Bird populations in French countryside have fallen by a third in fifteen years - YeGoblynQueenne
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/21/catastrophe-as-frances-bird-population-collapses-due-to-pesticides
======
bambax
What's so infuriating in France is that farmers are basically sacred: nothing
can be said, let alone done, to curb their behavior.

They benefit from all kinds of advantages: they don't pay taxes on fuel and
don't pay for water (water in France is very expensive for everyone else
except farmers), have all kinds of special conditions and fiscal deductions,
and that's in addition to the direct payments they get from the CAP (around 12
billion Euros / year).

All of this for less than 2% of French GDP and the active destruction of the
ecosystem, deforestation and pollution on a huge scale. In the French
countryside all one can see are immense fields of corn and wheat, watered all
the time (it's esp. infuriating to witness watering in the summer, at noon).
The French countryside isn't charming, it's horrible, it looks like a grand
experiment from an evil dictator.

Yet politicians from absolutely all parties from the extreme left to the
extreme right and including everything in-between, fall over themselves to
give more to farmers. Every single national politician attends the "Salon de
l'Agriculture" held in Paris in February, etc. etc.

Why is there no one to say, this has gone too far; why can't we hold those
people accountable for what they have done and what they are doing, I don't
understand.

~~~
ealhad
If farmers are “sacred”, how do you explain their horrible suicide rate?

There are a lot of problems with the french agro-food industry; but I wouldn't
blame farmers alone.

~~~
vincentperes
"horrible" is going a bit too far? It is 20% higher than average.
[http://www.lepoint.fr/sante/en-france-les-agriculteurs-se-
su...](http://www.lepoint.fr/sante/en-france-les-agriculteurs-se-suicident-
plus-que-les-autres-06-10-2016-2074089_40.php)

~~~
ealhad
Considering we are talking about people killing themselves, I don’t think so.

~~~
jwandborg
Yes any suicide rate would be horrible.

A suicide rate 20% higher than another suicide rate is 20% more horrible,
which is not horribly more horrible unless we've diluted the meaning of
horrible which would mean the we don't think the suicide rate is too bad.

------
sabertoothed
In some nature protected areas in Germany, researchers [1] have reported a 75%
decline in flying insects over 27 years. Study is from Oct 2017. This is
alarming.

[1]
[http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal....](http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0185809)

------
sverige
I don't know of any studies to prove it is true, but I suspect that the US
Midwest (in particular) has had a similar decline. Anecdotally I can say that
there are certainly far fewer insects here than there were in the 60s and 70s
when I was growing up, and also that there seem to be far fewer birds.

I wonder if we'll stop dumping this stuff into the environment before it's too
late. It would require a whole new way of thinking about the industrial scale
agriculture we have developed over the last 50 years, so I'm a little
pessimistic.

~~~
cjensen
No there are not fewer birds. Ornithologists _routinely_ census areas for
species and counts. They notice when species decline in an area. They notice
when new species arrive in an area. There have been zero reports of birds in
general declining.

EDIT: Here's a reference [1]. Note that it _specifically_ calls out species in
general decline: the Northern Bobwhite, American Kestrel, and the Loggerhead
Shrike.

[1] [http://www.audubon.org/news/the-118th-annual-audubon-
christm...](http://www.audubon.org/news/the-118th-annual-audubon-christmas-
bird-count-almost-here)

~~~
lowleveldrone
North American birds are absolutely in decline. From this article [1], the
overall population has decreased by about 1.5 billion birds since 1970. For
some groups of species, for instance, aerial insectivores [2], things are much
worse. For instance, the population of bank and barn swallows, chimney swifts
and common nighthawks has decreased by 70% over the past twenty years alone.

The Christmas Bird Survey is done after most birds have migrated and so
captures data on the relative abundance of resident birds, which as a group,
are doing better than birds in North America overall.

[1] [https://www.theglobeandmail.com/technology/science/report-
fi...](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/technology/science/report-finds-north-
american-skies-quieter-by-15-billion-fewer-birds/article31876053/) [2]
[http://www.bsc-eoc.org/download/BWCwi08.pdf](http://www.bsc-
eoc.org/download/BWCwi08.pdf)

------
almostApatriot1
Interestingly not mentioned is that many migratory birds that go through
Europe pass through a lot of hostile territory. Covered several years ago by
none other than Jonathan Franzen:

[http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2013/07/songbird-
migration...](http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2013/07/songbird-
migration/franzen-text)

Maybe not a significant reason for the decline; I don't know, but obviously
you can't blame the conditions in France alone for a decline in 70% of
migratory songbirds. France could not be the issue at all.

~~~
sologoub
Speechless after reading this...

EDIT: it’s fascinating that HN has people that don’t get that disbalancing a
fairly balanced system (ecosystem) will lead to severe and, usually, hard to
predict results. Birds and insects make up a vital part of our shared
ecosystem. By breaking the balance in it further and further we are
indangering ourself a further and further. The equation will balance itself,
but that balance may or may not include us (humans) in the long run. I’d
prefer we make significant concessions now, rather facing such dire
consequences later.

~~~
misnome
It's incredibly depressing, but it seems most people have trouble feeling
empathy for other humans, so what chance do the birds have?

------
randomerr
We've been seeing a similar issue in Ohio with our apiaries (bee hives). For
us it has been three items. I can image it's the same in Europe:

* Varroa mite - a Chinese mite that spread to Europe and then the by cross species breeds. It bites into the side of a bee. Adult bees are usually strong enough withstand the bites. But the mite's feeding leaves holes in the shell that never really heal and makes it easy to contact diseases like Fowl Brood Hive Disease.

When the mite hit the brood (aka larva) they'll grow up in cell with the
brood. Regular brood will have the mites cleaned off or the brood and mite
larva will be removed as soon as possible. But drones have a longer gestation
period and deeper cells. By the time the drone emerges the mite has already
gone through it's full life cycle and is ready to restart the process
attaching to nurse bees. Ohio would have eradicated it by now but neighboring
states don't regulate their hive.

* Fowl Brood Hive Disease - It's bacterium that spreads on contact between bees. Since bees are very social it spreads very easy. Remember when a bees stings something it dies, so why fight when you don't have to? Plus queens prefer to breed with other hives to prevent genetics stagnation.

When a brood has been infected it forms scales on it's shell and begins to for
scales similar to Harlequin Ichthyosis in humans. If they die in the cell the
nurse bees will remove the decaying brood. In the process the nurse bees also
get the spores on them spreading the disease in them. At the point the only
good way to stop the disease is to kill the whole hive, clean out the hive,
and boil everything. Again Ohio would have eradicated it by now but
neighboring states don't regulate their hive.

* Genetically altered crops - We have enough floral diversity in our wetlands, open fields, forests, and private gardens to feed our bees. But we sees build-up of genetically modified pollen that has a pesticide in it. The first couple years of a hive theirs no issue. But around year 3 we can almost count on total hive collapse. Its because the pesticide builds up in the wax they keep rebuilding for the brood, nectar, and honey storage. Eventually to get so strong it poisons the brood or the hive swarms to find a better location.

------
pvaldes
Pesticides are a big problem, but is more complex than that. The real
conservation of migrating species is a tricky problem. You can do your best
effort to save birds in France or Germany just to provide hunters in Malta or
Lebanon with plenty of birds (Is estimated than 2.6 millions of migrating
birds including many european protected species are killed each year just in
Lebanon for example). Is the drama with the vanishing european turtle dove and
shrikes for example.

[https://conservationaction.co.za/recent-news/stop-killing-
le...](https://conservationaction.co.za/recent-news/stop-killing-lebanese-
president-speaks-migratory-birds/)

------
AtomicOrbital
Possible contributing cause is a class of insecticides called neonicotinoids.
These are not sprayed, but rather coated on seeds, arguably even more
alarming.

    
    
        Seed coating with a neonicotinoid insecticide negatively affects wild bees
            https://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v521/n7550/full/nature14420.html

~~~
aurizon
With on the seed, there is a lot less neonicotinoid than in an area spray. I
tend to prefer minimalist use versus area use.

~~~
TaylorAlexander
I mean, it’s great that there’s not a whole lot of this stuff being used, but
if even small amounts are causing problems then it’s not that much of a saving
grace.

~~~
aurizon
I am suspicious of the neonics, but I am also suspicious of the many other
insecticides that are used indiscriminately, and possible in excess dosages. I
want to get rid of the bad materials and bad methods of use, and keep the good
ones/ways. It is fairly obvious that excess insect kill is harming birds, but
is it insecticides or a plague of spiders?

------
DoctorBit
"Despite a government plan to cut pesticide use in half by 2020, sales in
France have climbed steadily, reaching more than 75,000 tonnes of active
ingredient in 2014, according to European Union figures."

That's an incredibly large amount of pesticides - over two pounds of active
ingredient per French citizen per year.

~~~
seszett
And apparently the US used 1182 million pounds in 2012[0] which is almost four
pounds per US citizen, and 20% of world usage.

[0]
[https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2017-01/documents...](https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2017-01/documents/pesticides-
industry-sales-usage-2016_0.pdf)

------
nkurz
_Bird populations across the French countryside have fallen by a third over
the last decade and a half, researchers have said.

Dozens of species have seen their numbers decline, in some cases by two-
thirds, the scientists said in a pair of studies – one national in scope and
the other covering a large agricultural region in central France.

“The situation is catastrophic,” said Benoit Fontaine, a conservation
biologist at France’s National Museum of Natural History and co-author of one
of the studies._

Does anyone have a link to the actual studies that are referenced? The article
mentions Benoît Fontaine as one of the co-authors, but I don't see anything
that matches in his recent publications:

[http://cesco.mnhn.fr/search-
publications?field_auteurs_autho...](http://cesco.mnhn.fr/search-
publications?field_auteurs_author_publication=uid%3A61)

[https://scholar.google.com/citations?hl=en&user=f0kyLmwAAAAJ...](https://scholar.google.com/citations?hl=en&user=f0kyLmwAAAAJ&view_op=list_works&sortby=pubdate)

------
telesilla
Just this weekend I was visiting friends in a small town in the south-west of
France. I took a country walk on Sunday morning, and noticed there were very
few birds. The familiar, comforting sound of a distant woodpecker, but
considering how much forest I walked through and it is fully in Spring-bloom I
was very surprised to not see or hear birds in general.

------
propman
I've seen a drastic reduction in insects and just asked friends and family and
they say the same thing.

As for birds, I'm not as sure as I am about insects but I think they've been
far fewer in my area too.

------
tomahunt
Bats too? I'm very curious to know if bat populations have also fallen. They
are also dependent on the insects.

------
rhlala
There is a recent study showing decline of insects as well in similar
proportion, but i couldn't find it.

------
acd
The bird population going down can be summed up as Pesticides used in mono
culture farming.

------
a2tech
Cats. It’s always house cats.

~~~
jonyt
Possibly downvoted because of no references. So first, cats are a menace to
wild animals. Second, "We estimate that free-ranging domestic cats kill
1.3–4.0 billion birds and 6.3–22.3 billion mammals annually"[0]. Entirely
humans' fault of course. Without humans there wouldn't be so many cats.

[0]
[https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380](https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380)

~~~
a2tech
I'm sure the downvotes are because the people that are firm believers in
poisoning the environment with sprays are the same ones that refuse to believe
that little Fluffy needs to stay inside because its a relentless animal
killing machine.

------
debJC
GMO anyone?

~~~
nosuchthing
The purpose of many GMO plants is to be more resilient against pesticides.

The GMO plant itself isn't what kills the insects which than poison the
birds.. it's the poison that's sprayed on the plants.

~~~
glibgil
> The GMO plant itself isn't what kills the insects

[https://entomology.ca.uky.edu/ef130](https://entomology.ca.uky.edu/ef130)

~~~
nosuchthing
Wow interesting, thank you.

    
    
      Bt Delta Endotoxin
    

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipopolysaccharide#Health_effe...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipopolysaccharide#Health_effects)

an interesting side note, endotoxin test have relied on availability of
horseshoe crab blood:

    
    
      The standard assay for detecting presence of endotoxin is 
      the Limulus Amebocyte Lysate (LAL) assay, utilizing blood 
      from the Horseshoe crab (Limulus polyphemus).[44] Very low 
      levels of LPS can cause coagulation of the limulus lysate 
      due to a powerful amplification through an enzymatic 
      cascade. However, due to the dwindling population of 
      horseshoe crabs, and the fact that there are factors that 
      interfere with the LAL assay, efforts have been made to 
      develop alternative assays, with the most promising ones 
      being ELISA tests using a recombinant version of a protein 
      in the LAL assay, Factor C.[

------
John_KZ
That's sad, but until we get insecticides with high specificity I'd rather
have fewer birds and fewer insects over more birds and more insects.

Monocultures are definitely in need of becoming at least somewhat diversified
because besides the birds, right now we're still at a point where a stupid
plant virus or fungus can kill millions because it can wipe out half of the
world's wheat or rice production.

~~~
tzs
We know how to make insecticides that are very effective, almost impossible
for the target to develop resistance to, and harmless to most other species.

But to do so, we have to seriously understand the target species, bit there
aren't anywhere near enough entomologists for that.

Briefly, what you have to do is extensively study the life cycle of the
target. Insects are the biological equivalent of simple robots that follow a
bunch of pre-programmed behaviors triggered by their inputs. Hormones are
associated with this various behaviors.

Get a few PhD entomologists who make it their career to understand a
particular insect, and they can figure out what pre-programmed behavior that
insect has, and what triggers them, and most importantly what hormones are
involved with which trigger.

You can then make a pesticide based on one of that insect's hormones that will
trigger the associated behavior.

For example, suppose you have an insect that in its juvenile form causes a lot
of damage to crops. Later, in its adult form, when certain weather changes
occur, the females look for a particular plant growing in a still pond, and
lay their eggs on the leaves. The males, when that weather change occurs, also
seek those plants in still ponds, and fertilize any eggs they find. The adults
then die.

If you can find the hormone that triggers the "go lay/fertilize then die"
behavior, then you maybe can make a pesticide with that which you can spray on
the juveniles. It triggers the "reproduce and die" program, even though the
juvenile females cannot yet pay eggs and the males cannot yet fertilize eggs.
That doesn't matter. They are essentially biological automatons, and they are
running that program now. They find the pond, find the plant, go through the
motions, and die.

The cool thing about hormones is that the hormones for one species usually are
highly specific to that species. The hormone based pesticide probably will not
do anything to other insects. It also probably won't do anything to whatever
eats the target insect--things that eat insects and are not unharmed by insect
hormones tend to evolve away from eating insects. Another cool thing about
using hormones as the basis for pesticides is there is not much the target can
do to evolve resistance. An insect that evolves resistance to its own "go and
mate" hormone, for instance, is not going to be passing those genes on.

Another thing you can do when you have enough entomologists to actually
seriously study insect life cycles is try biological control. For many pest
insects there are predator insects that kill the pest. There are also often
parasites that can control the pests. If the pest is also a predator, there
are often other predators that compete with the pests for food. If you know
enough about this complex web of predator/prey/parasite, you can reasonably
safely try things like boosting the predators of your pests, or bringing in
non-pest competitors for the pest's prey.

But you need to really understand a lot about all the involved species to do
that safely, so it suffers the same problem as does hormone based pesticides,
but more so.

~~~
adrianN
Are you sure that hormones are species specific? A pregnant human's hormones
makes certain frogs lay eggs, insulin from pigs works in humans... at least
for vertebrates it seems that the hormonal pathways are fairly similar between
species.

