
Google bans reddit client from Play Store for "sexually explicit material" - veeti
http://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/r3dhg/reddit_is_fun_banned_for_sexually_explicit/
======
georgemcbay
The march towards being a half-assed Apple continues.

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3700731>

The disappointment continues as well.

I never would have thought replacing Eric Schmidt as CEO was a bad thing, and
I'm sure there are more factors at play here than just that, but I can trace
my waning support of Google to a pretty specific time that happens to coincide
with Page taking the CEO spot.

~~~
w1ntermute
And this is where the strength of Android shows. Just download and install the
APK: <https://github.com/talklittle/reddit-is-fun/downloads>

And if this keeps up, someone will just make an alternate market.

~~~
georgemcbay
You can jailbreak an iOS device and install whatever you want as well, that
doesn't change the fact that Apple makes ridiculous decisions about what can
and can't appear on the app store.

My problem with this decision isn't that it makes it impossible for me to
install this one app, but rather that it looks very much like the path towards
where Apple is, where maybe I have to install a custom Cyanogenmod build on my
Android phone just to have the option to install non-'Play' APKs (this isn't
the situation now, but I can much more easily see this happening today than I
could a year ago).

~~~
w1ntermute
> it looks very much like the path towards where Apple is, where maybe I have
> to install a custom Cyanogenmod build on my Android phone just to have the
> option to install non-'Play' APKs

I find it very difficult to believe that Google will remove sideloading.
Things have actually moved in the opposite direction. For example, after
preventing sideloading for years, AT&T made the decision to enable it last
May[0]. Apparently that was thanks to Amazon. So since there are already 2
dominant markets, I don't think it'll happen going forward.

Also, keep in mind that Google has a dominant position in the smartphone
market, so such restrictions could draw interest from antitrust regulators.

0: [http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2011/05/att-sideload-
android-...](http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2011/05/att-sideload-android-
amazon/)

~~~
rplnt
And it's not Google's decision either.

------
Pewpewarrows
For any curious devs: the distinction between this and the reason why web
browsers (like Chrome, Dolphin, or Firefox) aren't banned, according to Google
at least, is direct linking. An app is allowed to "browse" to NSFW material,
but cannot explicitly link (or come pre-loaded with favorites or bookmarks) to
said material.

That said, this is still an awful and draconian policy. I wouldn't have batted
an eyelash if this was a news story coming from Apple's App Store, because
that's just par for the course in their ecosystem. I love what Android used to
stand for, but lately I'm finding it harder to stand by my principles, with
Apple providing a very enticing walled garden that's getting harder to avoid.

~~~
nkohari
Except multiple Reddit clients exist for iOS, and have for years.

~~~
chrisrhoden
And none of them link directly to NSFW reddits.

~~~
nkohari
I guess I don't understand what you mean by "link directly," but NSFW links
appear on the Reddit homepage often, and touching them will open the link in
the app's browser. Also, (at least in Alien Blue) I can subscribe to any
subreddits I want, including NSFW ones.

~~~
Pewpewarrows
By "link directly" we mean that a subreddit devoted solely to NSFW content
appears as a default in a list of ones to browse from the moment the app is
launched.

You've always been free to add specific NSFW subreddits that you know about
after the fact. And NSFW links appearing on the frontpage is an occupational
hazard, that quite possibly never happened during the App Store review
process.

------
Urgo
I don't have any sexually explicit apps on my phone, I don't care to download
any, and I don't even care to have a reddit app (I don't use the site) but the
lack of censorship in the android marketplace was always the biggest reason I
supported Android. Yes its true you can get apps from other sources but you
shouldn't have to. I opposed the need for the amazon app store for example.
Anyway this really makes me sad that google feels the need to start filtering
for any reason other then malware. I've been a huge android supporter over the
past few years, and this in no way is making me get an iphone, but if they
continue down on this path I don't know if I'll follow in the future.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
> _the lack of censorship in the android marketplace was always the biggest
> reason I supported Android_ //

So you support Android only as far as they allow the undesired exposure of
users to hardcore porn or shock imagery? That seems a very strange line to
take.

~~~
Urgo
They have content filtering settings in the market.

[x] everyone

[x] low maturity

[x] medium maturity

[x] high maturity

[x] show all apps

With settings like that where the device owner can pick what they want to see
why block anything.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
So lack of censorship isn't the reason that you love Android it is instead
categorisation of censored material??

> _why block anything_ //

Presumably to retain users _and_ keep inside the relevant laws.

------
bostonvaulter2
This seems like a great place to plug f-droid which is basically an Android
"market" of all open-source apps that they compile themselves. Download reddit
is fun from f-droid here:

[http://f-droid.org/repository/browse/?fdid=com.andrewshu.and...](http://f-droid.org/repository/browse/?fdid=com.andrewshu.android.reddit&fdpage=6)

------
jballanc
In some ways, I wish this was a case of a company enforcing its own morals.
Chick-fil-a is closed on Sundays. Fine. I don't eat there. Enough people do to
keep them open. Great.

The thing about morals, though, is that everyone can have their own view. Taco
Bell is open on Sundays. So is McDonalds, Burger King, and literally thousands
of other restaurants. So why should I care that Chick-fil-a is closed?

No, I think this is about litigation. That's a lot more troubling because all
companies (at least those based in the US) are subject to the same threats of
litigation. Obviously, laws are based on morals, but ideally laws are based on
the union of a population's morals, not the intersection.

This does not bode well for America.

~~~
javert
_Obviously, laws are based on morals_

I think that's an astute observation... probably not obvious to most people.

 _ideally laws are based on the union of a population's morals, not the
intersection_

Did you mean this the other way around? The union of my morals and those of
Chick-fil-a would mean I can't work on Sunday. The intersection is probably
more like, don't initiate force against others.

------
tvon
So they don't want to promote it in the Android Market, but you can still
install it from other sources, can't you?

I mean, wouldn't a curated collection in "Play Store" (or whatever it's
called) along with the option to download outside apps be the best of both
worlds?

~~~
ajross
Yes, you can always install a .apk file directly via download, though there
are a few steps to the process (turn on "developer mode" or whatever, then
find the unassociated downloaded file and launch it). Amazon seems to be
making it work with their market app though, so it's probably not
insurmountable.

But no, I wouldn't consider that a "best" of the two worlds. Adult sites like
reddit mix "clean" content and NSFW stuff all the time, and dumping them in an
unsupported bin isn't likely to make anyone happy. If there's a curation step,
there also needs to be a opt-in for people who don't mind the occasional
nudity with their geek news.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
> _opt-in for people who don't mind the occasional nudity_ //

This sounds like a fanboy-like purposed miscategorisation. Reddit links to
hardcore pornography (and mirrors it in thumbnail form) and has until very
recently carried Child pornography. It is also a hub for extreme NSFL shock
imagery.

You can argue that someone should provide a repository for Android apps that
allow access to such things but I don't think you can fairly expect any
particular company to put their name to promotion of that sort of content. Any
company that wishes to remain with an appearance of respectability would
probably do well to keep a large distance between themselves and reddit (and
probably 4chan from what I've heard but I'm not that familiar with it - I've
visited a couple of times and what I found was relatively tame compared to
what I've seen on reddit, YMMV).

>'reddit is fun banned for "sexually explicit material"'

That sounds like the correct analysis to me.

~~~
ajross
_Reddit links to hardcore pornography (and mirrors it in thumbnail form)_

I guess that's true, because Reddit accepts and mirrors thumbnails from any
image link posted. But that doesn't make it a "porn site" either. Lots of
folks like me go there to read stuff like /r/askscience, which is about as
good a pop science hub as any in print or web form anywhere in the world.
You're saying you'd want to be censoring that forum because of stuff people do
elsewhere on the site? You're not alone, but I suspect you'll find very few
supporters for that opinion here.

And I think your information might be a little spun. When on earth did Reddit
carry child pornography? Doing so is a crime pretty much anywhere, and I don't
remember any FBI raids.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
> _But that doesn't make it a "porn site" either. Lots of folks like me go
> there to read stuff like /r/askscience, which is about as good a pop science
> hub as any in print or web form anywhere in the world. You're saying you'd
> want to be censoring that forum because of stuff people do elsewhere on the
> site?_ //

Nice and strawy. I never said that reddit was a "porn site"; probably because
it isn't primarily (though there's observer bias, that's not how I use it
shall we say). However subreddits do promote hardcore porn.

I didn't at any time say I was going to deny anyone access to, nor label as
adult material, /r/askscience.

> _And I think your information might be a little spun._ //

I visited a "bestof" thread that linked to what is almost certainly
categorised as child pornography in my jurisdiction (and in the US AFAICT
under the Dost test) and FWIW reported the content of that subreddit to the
IWF based on the thumbnails+titles (IWF is a UK watchdog, see
<https://www.iwf.org.uk/hotline/assessment-levels>). There was a previous
incident involving subreddits created by violentcrez (sp?) where the subreddit
was closed by reddit as users were making offers and requests explicitly for
images of an under-age girl.

See <http://i.imgur.com/mWqlJ.png> (NSFW, images there may be illegal in your
country - they're copies of reddit thumbnails) for example and the thread I
found that in
[http://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/pj804/are_you_fucking_k...](http://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/pj804/are_you_fucking_kidding_me_with_this/)
which started as a rather forceful apologia for paedophilic imagery.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
> _Yeah, that's pretty spun._ //

So you're saying that Dost isn't a test used in US law to determine whether
images are child pornography or not.

My point in referring to my report to IWF was that under their summary
recapitulation of the Sentencing Guidelines Council's Definitive Guidelines of
the Sexual Offences Act 2003 WRT such images I was convinced that this
material was child pornography.

Are you saying that crotch shots of pre-teen girls entitled "juicy" or making
reference to them as sexual objects is not child pornography or are you
defending child pornography as something that should be allowed?

Were there actual children exploited on/through reddit. Yes.

> _Most sane people I know are more liberally tolerant if the relative benefit
> is higher._ //

Ah gotcha: So I'm insane because you feel that a few sexually exploited
children should be perfectly fine as long as you get your fix of askscience in
a ready Android app?

Wow. I hope you're trolling.

~~~
Dylan16807
Why are you bringing up the creepy comments attached to the images? Those
thumbnails seem to be of clothed children not engaged in explicitly sexual
behavior. Cropping and making inappropriate lewd comments is exploitative but
it's not pornographic.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Someone raised that very point in the linked reddit thread (paraphrasing) "you
can see pics like these in the Sears catalogue". Presentation and intent make
it pornography.

One of those images as a picture in a family album (assuming they've not been
posed sexually) - not pornographic. Same image with sexualising content and
presented alongside similar images in a forum intend to pander to the
salacious nature of those who get aroused by sexualised images of children -
pornographic.

Or do you think that there is no such thing as pornographic image of a human
because you could see those same parts of the body in an anatomy book? If you
do go that far, then presumably you'd also not find anything to be erotic?
Would you also say that intent is not important?

~~~
Dylan16807
I believe that the intentions of the subject and photographer matter. I do not
believe that the intent of any distributor matters. A photograph is a moment
of time set in stone, and cannot be changed by appendices.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
So if someone posts your picture on the front page of your local paper with a
headline "rapist at large" then you're fine with that because it's just an
image and context doesn't matter?

~~~
Dylan16807
Wow, I sure screwed up communicating because you have my point exactly
backwards.

1\. I think it's bad and I'm not 'fine with it'.

BUT

2\. I think it's not an 'image of a rapist' because context can't change an
image.

------
gitarr
Why is the US such a prude country?

They show people blowing their head off with a gun in the afternoon news while
children are watching, but omg, a boob or even worse a nipple they go crazy!

This ban has to be taken back, or all other means to browse reddit must be
banned as well, including all google browsers, etc. I see a lawsuit coming
otherwise.

~~~
pohl
_This ban has to be taken back, or all other means to browse reddit must be
banned as well, including all google browsers, etc._

I don't understand your reasoning here. When a store decides to not devote
shelf space to an item, they are in no way trying to prevent you from going to
another store that carries it. My local grocer does not carry tomatillos, but
they're not going to sue me if I get them elsewhere.

~~~
darklajid
The analogy is crap.

Let me make it worse: You're the only store around for miles and miles and
people really just buy what you've got in stock. Sure, they could order online
or grow something in their backyards. Maybe there's this obscure and small
outlet for some of the missing things from your inventory, but most customers
don't know the place.

But you just decided to remove meat from your store now. You consider eating
meat distasteful and barbaric and really want to have nothing to do with that
sort of stuff.

In my book you'd be

\- abusive in your position as a quasi-monopoly

\- an asshole by forcing your morale standards on others

I think that's a good point the GP makes. I don't give a damn what the weirdo
moral limits are in the US. They are totally insane if you have my upbringing.

If you want to police the market, add proper age restrictions. Or use this
braindead misfeature of regional support and don't allow apps like this in the
US (now that would be a change, eh?).

------
stevejabs
Looks like Android users are going to start losing one of their "talking
points" if this is going to become a trend in the Google Marketplace.

Instead of making the choice to crack down on sexual content I wish they would
instead focus on getting ICS onto more handsets, cracking down on carriers /
manufactures modifying device OS, and bouncing malware apps.

~~~
pyre
Well, one of the "talking points" is that Google Marketplace isn't the only
way to install apps. If Google goes this route, someone else can create an app
market that competes. With Apple, you're stuck with what they spoon-feed you
(unless you're successful enough to launch a PR campaign against them that
works in getting them to back down).

------
gcb
They should remove gmail as well. I get some crazy things via that app

And it goes direct to my notification bar. talk about direct linking

------
benihana
...Redditors find some way to blame Apple and "hipsters"

