
Ask HN: At what point does being a loyal early hire become a poor choice? - uneasyearlyhire
I need advice weighing the benefits of being loyal through the struggles of an early-stage startup vs the importance of looking out for my career.  In other words, at what point does loyalty become stupid?<p>I am the first official (non-contract, non-founder) employee of an early-stage startup.  I was originally hired as a contractor to do some small jobs for the company, when one of the two technical co-founders left, I was bumped up to programmer lead, at which point, was offered a full-time position as an employee.  At this point I floated my resume to a few big name silicon valley companies to see what my prospects were in the hiring world.  I got a few interviews that didn't go anywhere so I accepted the job.  The job has been a huge opportunity for professional growth as I have had to become an expert on our full stack technologies from deployment and databases to client-side web technologies and my original plan was to stick with this company for a few years to build up my skills and experience.<p>However, there have been a number of warning signs which make me somewhat worried about staying here long term:<p>- As I've talked to other developers outside the company, I think I was taken advantage of in my compensation package (significantly lower salary than median entry level for most tech companies, no equity, and no benefits, though these have been promised to me 'as soon as we are profitable').<p>- Despite my position as lead programmer, I feel quite cut-off from the business side of the company and this divide between the business and technical sides of the company seems to go all the way up to the technical CTO and CEO.  I have no idea who our clients are, what our funding is like, what our income is like or what our business goals are (aside from vague descriptions).  Basically I get feature request and bug reports and commit them.<p>- This is partly because we are distributed across North America and do all our work remotely.  This wasn't an issue when I was contracting but has increasingly become an issue.  Furthermore, I am finding working alone to be extremely stifling.  It's lonely and I have no mentors to go to when I run into issues and I repeatedly find myself re-discovering best practices the hard way (doing it wrong before discovering the right way).<p>- Also, our development roadmap continues to be pushed back.  We were originally supposed to be live this time last year and a year later we are just barely beginning to meet those development goals.  This makes me wonder if we'll ever reach that magical 'profitable' status that will get me finally able to have some benefits.<p>I realize that working for a startup is a wild roller coaster and that success means sticking it through.  However, I also do not want to find myself loyally sticking with a sinking ship, to the detriment of my career and bank account.<p>(Edit: formatting)
======
neild
Loyalty is a wonderful thing. You should demonstrate your loyalty by giving
your company a full two weeks notice when you leave.

You're being taken advantage of, and you know it or you wouldn't have posted
this. You're taking an under-market salary and no benefits, which means you're
probably making about 50% of what you should be when you count health care,
401k and so forth. You have no equity, which is the traditional tradeoff at a
startup: Accept a reduced salary for the possibility of a large payoff at the
end.

Right now, your _best case scenario_ is that the company is wildly successful,
the founders go on to fame and fortune, and if you're very, very lucky, they
might just decide to throw you a bone. Which they won't.

Leave.

------
rst
One odd note: "equity ... promised to me 'as soon as we are profitable'".
Early employees are typically given large amounts of equity _in lieu of_ a
market salary and benefits --- because the company hasn't got the money to pay
market rates yet. There's ordinarily no need to wait for profitability, or
even for funds to be available (beyond what's required to pay for the legal
paperwork). And even without fully worked up contracts, it's still possible to
at least have a written arrangement of how equity will be divided and up as
and when things are formalized.

So, if you're getting below-market rates _and_ no equity, well... at the very
least, that's unusual. If you can't get straight answers about why it's
unusual, that could just be a sign of general cluelessness --- but management
being that clueless doesn't bode well for the future of the business.

------
jfarmer
You only owe your employer your loyalty insofar as they're fulfilling their
end of the bargain.

If what you've said is true, they're not.

There is no startup out there who gives zero equity for any developer, let
alone a lead developer. Salary varies widely depending on company stage and
location.

I'd be careful comparing the salary at an early stage startup to the median
salary at a place like Google or Facebook -- you get more cash when equity is
expensive for a startup, and vice versa -- but even at those companies you'd
get _some_ equity.

Quit now, or if you don't have the cash, as soon as you find a job. There is
no point in negotiating -- the kind of company that takes advantage of you
when you're ignorant isn't the kind of company you want to work for even after
you're fully-informed and can renegotiate a better deal.

Feel free to email me at jesse@everlane.com. No need to de-anonymize yourself,
but if you give me some details I'll be happy to help you decide what
companies to be looking at.

~~~
Deestan
> the kind of company that takes advantage of you when you're ignorant isn't
> the kind of company you want to work for even after you're fully-informed
> and can renegotiate a better deal.

This is the important bit. Don't waste loyalty on someone who isn't loyal
back. There's literally _nothing_ in it for you; it will only bring you pain,
frustration and health problems.

Sure, I have no problem working for an illoyal employer, and most of us do.
I'll do the most skilled work I can, with a professional attitude, as long as
I get my negotiated pay. But, they can not expect any loyalty if things go
bad.

If my employer refuses to compensate when people run off from the family
dinner to help out during emergencies, that is acceptable. The contract only
says they are required to pay for my 8 hours per day. But, then they should
not expect me to answer the phone outside working hours; I don't care if
there's a crisis at Important Customer's site. The contract only says I have
to work for 8 hours per day.

If my employer has a tendency to lay off people to meet arbitrary profit
goals, that is also acceptable. It's business - they're here to make money.
But, I will also not hesitate to jump ship to take better paid jobs when given
the opportunity. I don't care if I'm the only person left who knows Technology
Foo. It's business - I have kids to feed and loans to pay.

You should not be spiteful, you should just refuse to be exploited. Life's too
short to spend in abusive relationships.

------
patio11
It sounds like you're a remote contractor with precisely one client, where
relations are not that great. No problem, us contractors have a really easy
solution for that one. It's a seller's market for talent right now.

P.S. Next time, leave the title, take the money.

------
j_baker
Low salary and benefits may be acceptable at an early stage, but there is
absolutely no reason you shouldn't get any equity at this point. Personally, I
say hope for the best but prepare for the worst. Start looking for a new job
before you need one. It'll be much better than living on unemployment.

------
rdl
Fundamentally, you first need to ask yourself a few questions

* Do you have faith in the ability of the CEO and CTO to execute on all the things you don't have visibility into?

* What is your best alternative to this job? I'd put your resume out there and see what bites you get.

* What is preventing you from bringing these issues up with the management directly, vs. posting on HN?

Not having equity NOW is a big red flag, as are the communication issues with
the team. Substandard salary and health care is forgivable in certain stages
of a company, but only if you have substantial equity.

I think based on your answers to the above, you'll know what you want to do.
If you do decide to stay, you should make it a positive negotiation with your
management about wanting more visibility into the business side (so you can
contribute more), and to get at least the equity part resolved now.

IMO with no other data, if you live in the Bay Area or are willing to
relocate, your best bet is probably to find a new job with a winning team.
Assuming this was an early career move for you (full stack involvement with a
company which may or may not be doomed), it's probably worth taking a role in
a well-run engineering organization and business for a while to see how THAT
works (Palantir, Facebook, Google, Twitter, Quora, ... even pockets at
Microsoft, Yahoo, etc.), and maybe then try to get a cofounder or full early
tech hire (with equity, etc.) at a funded startup. You should be able to save
quite a bit of money while working for one of the larger companies, enough to
give you more flexibility with later jobs. You might also decide that you'd
rather do your own startup, in which case you could consider something like Y
Combinator.

------
rhizome
They've slipped for a _year_? GTFO. You're getting robbed as a tech lead and
you now have a ton of professional experience where before you got interviews
that went nowhere.

Just start shopping yourself around and find something else. You don't need to
make a big deal about it. You have no basis for loyalty except inertia. If you
don't know what the business is like and they've slipped for a year, they
don't have business. They would be bragging left and right if there was
anything coming in.

The only thing "early stage" about it is that they haven't launched, and
really, from what you describe, there is no launch forthcoming. Interview on
your lunch hour or in the early evening (people hiring know how it is) and
change boats like a good businessperson. If your absence would be so
catastrophic, then that's additional evidence they don't even prioritize the
business's interests.

------
mjs00
First, your job is 'CEO/Founder' of 'ME Inc' manage and watch your career
accordingly. Things you will need to do to advance your career, happiness, and
earnings are often not in alignment with what your employer needs. They are
not your Mom, and are only thinking of you as a resource or factor of
production. Some employers are very thoughtful and truly do watch out for
their employees. Many do not. Its not hard to tell the difference between the
two groups as the way they do some things is the way they do everything.
Things like no equity, no benefits, empty promises, no business exposure do
not bode well.

Second, you get what you negotiate. Over time you will learn that you have
more control over your 'rate' than you realize (pay, equity, etc), it's based
on what you accept, not what you are offered. Also at the early part of your
career you need to balance experience and exposure to things you enjoy vs
maximizing compensation. Trade cash compensation for exposure, mentoring, and
of course equity.

Lastly don't worry about business continuity if you leave, that's not your
job, it's the CEO's/CTO's. As long as you are ethical, don't destroy anything,
and give two weeks, you are following accepted practices. If tasks take longer
than two weeks to transition (not your problem), as your discretion you can
make yourself available after two weeks - maybe after hours or on-demand
consulting at 3x your current hourly rate:-) They may also make an offer you
'can't refuse' at which point you may be able to negotiate to stay at the pay
rate you think is appropriate, and with equity.

------
NerdGirl
I am in almost the same exact situation as you. Hopefully my experience can
help you a bit.

I am the lead/senior web developer at my company (a very small startup thats
been around a couple of years). I am paid ridiculously little for the kind of
work I do with NO benefits. I didn't realize this at first because I was so
naive fresh out of college, and I didn't know that the normal entry level
salary for my position was much higher. I do have a good relationship with my
boss, and I've managed to talk him into nudging up my pay a little bit.
However its become very clear that it will take forever (and maybe never) to
finally get closer to what I deserve, not to mention standard benefits. And
check this out, after over a year of working there, I'm still a contractor!
(AKA, more taxes for me because he isn't willing to pay his share by putting
me on payroll)

Your main question is about loyalty. Well, I feel the same as you. My company
is so dependent on me that it really would hurt it badly if I left. And to
make matters worse, I actually LOVE the work that I do. One side of me feels
awful- like adopting an animal from a shelter and taking it back because I
can't afford it. The other side wants proper compensation, gosh darn-it.

I did recently make the decision to leave, however, and it took me months to
accept that I needed to. (I am currently having interviews for new jobs right
now). I talked to my boss to let him know that I am leaving (and why), and I
can tell he is pretty upset because he put all of his eggs in one basket with
me and is going to have a really tough time replacing me. However, since we
have a good relationship, he will work with me to have a good transition out
of the company (and give me good reviews!).

I would suggest, like everyone else here has already, that you send out your
resume immediately (after making sure to update it, of course). Because you do
have a job and won't have to worry about money, you can really take the time
to make yourself look awesome and land a great job. Look at it this way: you
may feel bad about leaving because they are so dependent on you, but hopefully
this experience will make them realize that they need to value and take care
of their employees more.

~~~
ohyes
If he is going to have such a tough time replacing you, he should pay you more
and/or give you significant equity.

It doesn't make sense that he should take advantage of you for over a year,
and then act all upset when you finally get a clue and quit.

I seriously /boggle at employers like this.

------
davidandgoliath
Ditto on the 'ask'. If you don't ask them for benefits, equity, etc., you
won't receive. Sit down with them and have a talk, or, better yet, simply sit
down with them. Sounds like it's ripe time to hold a big ol' weekend of
collaboration & BBQ somewhere warm that everyone can meet, greet and socialize
a bit.

Getting to know the folks better face to face might make this an easier
longterm decision. Once you know them better you may also get more solid ideas
on how to approach them re: benefits / equity & such. "Waiting until we're
profitable" is merely bullshit, just note :)

~~~
uneasyearlyhire
There has been talk of such a meeting for quite a while and I think the
founders realize the need for this. However, like most things at this company,
its actual realization is long in the indefinite future.

~~~
donw
Move it into the immediate future.

Equity is something you want, and the founders aren't going to give it to you
unless you make it clear that this is important.

I don't know what your relationship is with the founders, so your lack of
equity could be simply due to inexperience at the time you were hired. That's
not to say you aren't being taken advantage of, but it's easier to negotiate
if you don't start from an adversarial position.

------
bfung
_I have no idea who our clients are, what our funding is like, what our income
is like or what our business goals are (aside from vague descriptions)._

have you asked or tried to talk about the business with the CTO and CEO?
Perhaps make it known that you're interested in that stuff so you can make
better judgments on your tasks.

------
ile
This sounds very much the type of company/guys that I worked for a period of
time. I wouldn't be surprised if they were actually the same people. I regret
the time deeply.

In the end I didn't even get paid as the company got bankrupt. Of course it
didn't come as a surprise to them, and they could have paid me earlier, but
they decided to spend the money on their company instead. So, they were
dishonest too.

Leave and work for some who know what they are doing.

------
iamdave
When you can't see the door out.

~~~
uneasyearlyhire
At that point isn't it already the case that you should have already left? I
mean, having no other options is exactly the sort of situation I want to
_avoid_.

~~~
lotusleaf1987
Stick with it until you find another job, especially now that you can leverage
the experience and everything you've learned. A paycheck is better than none
at all so I'd wait to find a replacement before you quit, also it's usually
easier to find a job when you're already employed.

~~~
uneasyearlyhire
Looking for a job though already feels like being disloyal. Given how early we
are and how much domain knowledge I have of our system and operations, I worry
that my leaving the company could be catastrophic for them. On the other hand,
do I even want to be with a company (as a non-founder) who's entire existence
is dependent on a single employee? If so, then, I feel I should be compensated
accordingly.

~~~
DavidAdams
I'm a serial startup founder, and I've been in the position that your CTO and
CEO are in right now. It's hard and expensive to get a company off the ground
and if you can find someone who will work for you, who's good, and they'll do
it for less than they're worth, then awesome. My feeling is that if I'm paying
someone 25% less than they're worth, then that makes it easier for me to give
them a nice raise once we're "on our feet" financially. But that's a moving
target, and it's always tempting to just let things ride. And if someone
doesn't ask for equity, maybe I'll just let that ride too, because who wants
to give up equity if they don't have to.

I think these guys are making a mistake, though, because they're not just
letting you get by making a little less that what you could make on the open
market, and they're not just giving you a small amount of equity when you
could perhaps demand more. They're playing with fire, because there's a good
chance you could go out and find a good job, and by the time they find out
you're dissatisfied, it's too late.

But here's what I'm certain of: If, as other commenters have recommended, you
have a meetup with them, and you let them know that you feel you're not being
adequately compensated, and you've been thinking of starting a job hunt, but
that your sense of loyalty dictates that you let them know now, before to get
fed up and before you find another job, they'll give you a sweeter deal.

They may not be able to afford to pay you more cash, but they can definitely
afford to give you a decent equity stake. I can't say how much would be okay,
but 0% is definitely not okay. In this case, you need to turn the tables. Once
you've agreed to work for equity in lieu of a full-market salary, you become
an investor, and they need to pitch you on the company's future. As for
deciding what's appropriate, I'd recommend not thinking in terms of a percent,
but have them make the case for the company being worth X amount. If they've
raised money from other investors, then that may already be determined. Then
you can agree on an amount of equity that's equal to a certain amount of the
company's value. If you think you've missed out on $50,000 of compensation so
far, then you should ask for that much equity, plus whatever extra you think
you should get for the work you'll do in the near future.

Then as the company's fortunes rise, then so will yours. Of course, if you're
going to take equity at all, you need to have them make the case, and you need
to believe it. Otherwise, keep working at this job long enough to get a new
one, and let the chips fall where they may.

~~~
lotusleaf1987
David Adams, you're exactly the type of boss to avoid. If you're paying me
less than you know I'm worth and hiring other people who contribute less and
are less important, but are being compensated more--then that means you
disrespect me as an employee and an individual and are taking advantage of me,
knowingly, which makes it far worse.

"et them know that you feel you're not being adequately compensated, and
you've been thinking of starting a job hunt, but that your sense of loyalty
dictates that you let them know now"

I absolutely would not do this. Wait until you have other offers, if you play
your cards now they could withhold giving you a reference or not as good of
one as you truly deserve since they know it will be to their detriment.

Do what is best for yourself, not some startup which has clearly illustrated,
by the facts presented, that it does not value you as an employee. Someone
else will, go find them--you owe it to yourself.

As jfarmer said above: the kind of company that takes advantage of you when
you're ignorant isn't the kind of company you want to work for even after
you're fully-informed and can renegotiate a better deal.

~~~
mattmanser
You're taking his post a little too personally, business is business.

In the end if you're not fighting your own corner compensation wise why do you
expect your boss to do so?

His incentive is to keep you happy enough to stay and be productive while
spending as little money as possible.

If the OP is genuinely happy with the job itself there's no downside to simply
voicing his actual dissatisfaction as long as he presents his employers,
especially as he's presenting a clear solution to the problem.

In your solution he's got to spend a bunch of his spare time applying for jobs
first, which could all be a waste of time.

Also your point about references makes no sense. If they're petty enough to be
asses now, they'll be petty enough to be asses in the future.

~~~
rhizome
Business is business, but is it good business?

 _If the OP is genuinely happy with the job itself_

If your tech lead is using the word "stupid" to describe their loyalty, I'd
say it's bad business. Note that the OP is not wondering whether they're
underpaid or under-equitized, or any other in-kind value judgement, they're
already past that. It's now a matter of pulling a simple switch and bailing
into a seller's market. Competent C-levels avoid this situation, especially in
a startup environment where the midstream boatchanging of technical leadership
can have painful consequences.

It's irresponsible for a company leader to exploit a crucial employee who can
learn the truth about their situation, not that letting the launch slip by a
year doesn't already mark them as possibly-incompetent. I can't recall if it's
Fred Brooks or something possibly-apocryphal, but the rule of thumb that I've
heard is that schedules slip by the units the milestone is measured. If the
deadline is "two months from now," the schedule will slip by two-month
periods. Slipping by a year? The business may not even get off the ground. I
realize that it may have slipped by a year in two month increments (e.g.), but
in hindsight the company's momentum sure doesn't look healthy.

 _In your solution he's got to spend a bunch of his spare time applying for
jobs first, which could all be a waste of time_

Pure FUD.

 _If they're petty enough to be asses now, they'll be petty enough to be asses
in the future._

True that.

------
earl
No equity. Are you fucking kidding? Why exactly are you taking substandard
comp then?

Stop being a sucker. Personally, I'd tell the owners 10% or two weeks, their
choice. Be willing to be negotiated down to maybe 3%. If they can't do that,
then they can find a new lead dev.

And get some health insurance. I just broke my ankle (well, not really -- I
popped my foot out of the ankle socket, severed 2 ligaments, tore a 3rd
ligament, broke two bones, have $1k of titanium holding stuff together while
it heals). The bill is $50K and counting with tons of physical therapy and
another surgery to come. I'd seriously question any employer that can't at
least buy minimal coverage for employees. Sometimes shit happens out of the
blue -- I at least did this snowboarding, but my brother did something similar
slipping in a parking lot -- and you'll have a medical problem that requires
spending a lot of money. Make sure this doesn't ruin you, either financially,
or physically by not getting the care you need when you need it.

edit: start here <http://yclist.com/> I bet a ton of those companies need a
full stack web dev.

~~~
rdl
Seconded on health insurance -- getting some kind of HSA compatible high
deductible plan SHOULD be fairly inexpensive (I'm 32, in good health, and $5k
deductible coverage is $81/mo). That covers the insurance-against-huge-risk
aspect of health care; you can still pay for smaller expenses out of cash.

Having an employee go bankrupt (or worse, not have health care) after a
surprise illness or injury is a major risk to a team; it seems prudent for
management or investors to want to mitigate this risk.

~~~
mgkimsal
Where are you located!? $5k HSA deductible here is $280(!) - I'm a bit older
than you, but not _that_ much older (and married, but no kids). Blue Cross NC.

~~~
rosser
As another data point, I'm paying ~$140/month for a $2.5k-deductible, HSA-
enabled plan at 38, in UT.

