
Friends Don't Let Friends Clap on One and Three: A Backbeat Clapping Study - Munksgaard
http://www.slideshare.net/ethanhein/friends-dont-let-friends-clap-on-one-and-three-a-backbeat-clapping-study
======
spenuke
Duke Ellington routinely gave his audiences a lesson in his inimitable style:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPcZ5ex2t-g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPcZ5ex2t-g)

Harry Connick Jr. didn't bother educating his European audience with any
explanation. He simply skips a beat, and then they're clapping on 2 and 4. It
happens after the first sung chorus. You can see the drummer raise his hands
in joy:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD3iaURppQw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD3iaURppQw)

And, of course, the great Slim Gaillard was so saturated in swing, his
predominantly white 1950s television audience SPONTANEOUSLY clapped on the 2
and 4:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKdrnTTDTqo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKdrnTTDTqo)

~~~
tmm
How can you tell he skips a beat? Or for that matter the difference between
beats 1 and 3 vs 2 and 4? Music is such a mystery to me. :/

~~~
spenuke
The vast majority of music has what's known as a meter, which is a cyclical
pattern. Just like we can think of time in terms of a neverending stream of
occurrences, or choose to think in terms of a 7-day week, we simplify the
understanding of musical events by counting in a regularly repeating _meter_.

This song's meter is in 4/4, which means you count 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4, etc. along
with the very pulse you feel. Tap your foot. Count "1" when he says the word
"Come [with me]". You'll find that they clap every time you say 1 and 3.

What he does is the equivalent of cutting out, say, Sunday from one week of
the calendar, and so their regularly repeating clap now falls on a different
day than it was falling on before. Does that help?

~~~
pavel_lishin
After reading your comment, I realized that I was counting at half the speed I
was supposed to.

~~~
SapphireSun
Only for common (4/4) time. That's the most popular one though. ;)

------
dnautics
actually the notion that european music is "harmonically rich and rhythmically
unsophisticated" is incorrect; it's relatively modern phenomenon that the
rhythms in european music were simplified. Traditional eastern european
rhythms are incredibly complex and western european liturgical and vernacular
music tended to have complex ryhthms until around the 16-17th century.

IIRC this was basically an effect of the church decided to try to monopolize
music in the service of liturgy _and_ "dumb down" the music so that everyone
could participate in hymnals, etc.

This could also partially be a result of music printing; it's harder to notate
complex rhythms - if you've ever sung medieval music that's pushed into modern
notation, sometimes wierd things happen, like time signatures that don't quite
line up with the all of the music lines because polyphony is going on;
invasions of 3/4 measures in an otherwise 2/4 song, etc.

~~~
gohrt
This sounds like how the early digital age of computers over-simplified analog
processing of audio and video and PDEs (and what other complex phenomenon?
Language AI?), and only later started to close the gap.

------
rlucas
My circle of friends used to joke about the "Republican Test." You administer
it like this: play the song "I Heard It Through the Grapevine," ideally the
Marvin Gaye version, and ask the subject to "clap along with the music"
however he or she feels.

Our unscientific observations showed a high correlation with 1/3 clapping and
being old, square, uptight, or an alien from an unfunky and obsolete dying
planet.

~~~
javert
Conversely, how do you detect a Democrat?

Don't worry, it's easy. They go around calling anyone who disagrees with them
names, like "old, square, uptight, or alien."

~~~
bonjovial
Oh.

And we all just learned not to expect Republicans or Libertarians to
understand the concept of..."joke".

You just confirmed the parent comment's point.

~~~
javert
Democrats definitely think that Republicans are morally inferior to them, and
vice versa. You can't really make jokes in a context like that because there
is no distinction between a joke and an actual malignment. I definitely make
jokes about Democrats, just not around Democrats, because there is just no
point in maligning people to their face.

~~~
rlucas
That should read culturally inferior, not morally.

------
rmxt
A YouTube link to the Taj Mahal concert mentioned:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HQOJQHJ8Sg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HQOJQHJ8Sg)

------
thangalin
The following blog post provides examples of swung beats and clapping, as it
pertains to dancing:

[http://vixswingjazz.wordpress.com/2013/03/18/can-you-hear-
th...](http://vixswingjazz.wordpress.com/2013/03/18/can-you-hear-the-beat/)

A few songs are missing from the page:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFtNC8BwKI0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFtNC8BwKI0)
(Dinah; NSFW)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YqDbd6pUC0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YqDbd6pUC0)
(Everything is Jumping)

To get a feel for clapping on the even beats:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_WZenJnT8M](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_WZenJnT8M)
(Shout, Sister, Shout!)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg_pi0r75mA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg_pi0r75mA)
(Lavender Coffin)

Harry Connick Jr. beat-shifts the audience from clapping on 1 & 3 to 2 & 4 (at
40 second mark):

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD3iaURppQw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD3iaURppQw)

Usually the Ultimate Lindy Hop Showdowns have live music, which induces the
audience to clap:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfWA4ClPnxk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfWA4ClPnxk)

A tradition called a jam circle involves encircling dancers who steal the
spotlight, with the audience clapping (on even beats) for encouragement:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTRNQAcXhJo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTRNQAcXhJo)

This tradition goes back a long way; see Hellzapoppin' (1941) and Keep
Punching (1939):

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSAOV6XEjXA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSAOV6XEjXA)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfgKMfexdPQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfgKMfexdPQ)

~~~
DanBC
I play the Lavender Coffin track. I listen to it carefully. I replay it and
try to clap on the claps. I fail. I try again. I still fail. I listen to the
song again. I replay the track, but this time try to tap my finger (which is
easier than clapping) and I still fail.

Will it get easier or am I just "beatdeaf"? (Here I can clearly hear the 1 2 3
4, and the claps, but I just cannot match the claps on 2 and 4.)

~~~
thangalin
Try these:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REzz-
My2PoI#t=100](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REzz-My2PoI#t=100)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Joo90ZWrUkU#t=20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Joo90ZWrUkU#t=20)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8Tiz6INF7I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8Tiz6INF7I)

It takes practice. Newer dancers clap on 1 & 3 until they learn. Sometimes all
it takes is for someone to clap quite loudly (almost passively-aggressively
so) on the 2 & 4 for the rest of the people to shift over.

~~~
dnautics
Oh man, I once went to (unnamed city) and everyone was clapping on 1 & 3, so I
_aggressively_ clapped on 2 & 4\. It wasn't enough.

~~~
Arnor
Living in the rural midwest, the concept of clapping on 2 and 4 was a foreign
concept to most people I knew growing up. I lucked out because my dad was a
music teacher. He caught me clapping on 1 and 3 once and promptly fixed it.
Thanks Dad!

------
brownbat
For those that didn't make it to slide 28:

Subject 5769, a tabla player only weakly familiar with Western or African
music, clapped on displaced backbeats or using complex 16th note rhythms,
that, if recorded, "would likely make an enjoyable work of art."

------
guelo
This presentation would much better as a youtube video with audible samples of
the beats.

~~~
Roedou
In case you're not the only one looking for them:

Michael Jackson - Billie Jean:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi_XLOBDo_Y#t=0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi_XLOBDo_Y#t=0)

The Honey Drippers - Impeach The President:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqbEsS5kFb8#t=0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqbEsS5kFb8#t=0)

Bob James - Take Me to the Mardi Gras:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaoCsmFDLcY#t=0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaoCsmFDLcY#t=0)

James Brown - Funky Drummer:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNP8tbDMZNE#t=332](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNP8tbDMZNE#t=332)

The Winstons - Amen Brother:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxZuq57_bYM#t=84](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxZuq57_bYM#t=84)

~~~
__david__
So I watched an old documentary online about the Amen break which was
phenomenal, but I've never heard of "Impeach the President" and "The Funky
Drummer". And yet, I know those drums like the back of my hand. I love finding
where stuff I've heard my whole life came from.

------
gpvos
Interestingly, the Schottische, a 19th-century dance which despite the name
originates from Central Europe, has strong and fairly complex backbeats (if
danced the traditional way): one-and-TWO, three-and-FOUR, one-AND-two-AND-
three-AND-four-AND.

This dance has influenced blues dancing. (Which is a partner dance; African-
American slaves had no tradition of partner dancing.)

------
zaius
Links to the songs discussed:

* Billie Jean - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi_XLOBDo_Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi_XLOBDo_Y)

* Impeach the President - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqbEsS5kFb8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqbEsS5kFb8)

* Take me to the Mardi Gras - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaoCsmFDLcY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaoCsmFDLcY)

* The Funky Drummer - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNP8tbDMZNE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNP8tbDMZNE)

* Amen Brother - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxZuq57_bYM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxZuq57_bYM)

------
brightsize
If you get tired of 2 and 4, try this.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVBoDx_1dTc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVBoDx_1dTc)

[The First Circle -- Metheny/Mays]

~~~
cnvogel
For the curious...

||: 12/8 -♪♪-♪-♪♪-♪-♪ | 10/8 -♪♪-♪♪-♪-♪ :||

(- being a 1/8th pause, for the lack of a proper unicode character in whatever
font I currently use to type this)

from:
[http://www.stuartgreenbaum.com/downloads/files/%20First%20Ci...](http://www.stuartgreenbaum.com/downloads/files/%20First%20Circle-
thesis.pdf)

See also:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_works_in_unusu...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_works_in_unusual_time_signatures#22.2F8)

~~~
brightsize
Thanks for that. It took me a while, but over time I finally figured out the
myriad time changes in that tune, at least for informal clapping purposes
anyway. That said, they implemented at least one variation of the rhythm in
some of their live concerts (see youtube) that still eludes me.

Pretty amazing that this one tune can result in a 50+ page analysis - your
linked PDF. The composition is a masterpiece, quite possibly the one that the
PMG will be most remembered for.

------
jdbernard
"Taj Mahal found it distressing when his audience clapped wrong because it
felt like a failure to emotionally connect with them."

How do they know this? Did they ask him or is this their assumption based on
their expectations. It is annoying enough when researchers impute motive and
thought to inanimate things. But people actually have them so it is all the
more frustrating if they are assuming they know what he's feeling.

The beat you emphasize has a great effect on the feel of the rhythm. Instead
of "feeling like he failed to connect on emotionally," it could just be that
he wanted them to hear the song as he intended to play it and without altering
it's rhythmic nature.

------
thornofmight
"We can determine the “metric salience” of each event in a rhythmic pattern
by“recursively breaking down a musical pattern (with an initially speciﬁed
length)into subpatterns of equal length.” __The more subdivisions it takes to
reach a given event __, the lower its metrical salience. In 4 /4 time, the
downbeat is themost salient position, followed by beat three. It would seem
natural to clap onthe strongest, most salient beat."

Anybody know what this quote is trying to say? What is a "given event"?

~~~
powrtoch
Roughly, a sound that happens during some measure of music, or an arbitrary
point during that duration.

Imagine folding a strip of paper exactly in half. Now you have a crease at the
middle of it. If you fold it again, you have a couple more creases at the 1/4
and 3/4 points. The above quote is talking about the same thing, but with a
length of time instead of a strip of paper. The more folds you have to make in
order to put a crease at a certain point (event), the less salient it is.

Hope that's helpful.

------
ArekDymalski
I'm genuinely grateful for this article, because I'm going to show it to my
wife as an explanation why I dance the way I do. (dnb and classical Indian
music fan)

------
mnemonik
Here is an excellent 18 minute piece on the Amen Break, mentioned in TFA:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SaFTm2bcac](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SaFTm2bcac)

------
krispyfi
The rhythm tengoku series of games will teach you about stuff like this.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMe-j0Lg5w8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMe-j0Lg5w8)

------
psenior
Barry Harris tells it like it is:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjnX_PkDwWs#t=2992](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjnX_PkDwWs#t=2992)

------
waterlesscloud
And then there's bluegrass clogging...

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs2j8f7H2WY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs2j8f7H2WY)

------
shangxiao
Nitpick: The slide author correctly spells "zwei" but deliberately misspells
"schwartz" and "vier".

~~~
adsche
Then a nitpick to your nitpick: "schwarze" (no 't')

~~~
shangxiao
Touché!

------
gavinking
Well both are wrong. You don't clap on two and four; you click your fingers. I
thought everyone knew that...

------
conitpicker
slide 28 (tabla player gets in the groove..) is fascinating.

~~~
nitid_name
I would like to hear his "complicated sixteenth note patterns."

~~~
dekhn
The spoken introduction in this album walks you through some basics of indian
classical music. [http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Indian-Music-Album-
Versio...](http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Indian-Music-Album-
Version/dp/B00137T9SI)

he walks you through the 16 beat cycle and counts things off.

he also make a very interest comment about jazz.

