
Business in a Box - conorwade
https://squareup.com/register/hardware/shop
======
drfritznunkie
I just helped a friend install a iPad POS at his coffee shop this past
December using BreadCrumb. We looked at Square Register, but it's rather
lackluster feature set ruled it out. Namely, it doesn't support multiple
printers or printer queuing (ex. food items get sent to kitchen printer), it
doesn't have a modifier system for items (maybe this has changed), and no
employee features (clock-in/out) etc..

I would say it's good for a small shop without too many needs. As soon as you
have to do funky stuff like modify orders (and report on them), you're better
off looking elsewhere.

I would also caution people against using the wireless printers and go with
hard wired ones instead. I know, wires are not fashionable, but they are damn
reliable and predictable. The restaurant next door uses wireless STARs with
their POSLavu system(should win an award for worst name), and a waitress there
told me they constantly had problems with them, and missed orders, etc.

Also, for anyone wondering why these thermal printers are $300+ on a good day,
they're built like tanks. I bought all the Epson TM printers for my friend
from a bankrupt Chinese restaurant. When I asked the owner if he'd had any
problems with them (they self tested okay), he said in his broken english
something like "even with roaches, they still print!"...

Well, I get them home and start pulling them apart to clean them, and they're
FULL of dead roaches. Every empty space inside the printers was chock full of
roach bodies. The circuit boards were caked with roach shit and all the feed
mechanisms had ingested and ground up the roaches that got in their way. And
ever single one of these printers still works flawlessly.

So yeah, they're worth the $400.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
* Every empty space inside the printers was chock full of roach bodies. The circuit boards were caked with roach shit and all the feed mechanisms had ingested and ground up the roaches that got in their way. And ever single one of these printers still works flawlessly.*

Now that's a product I'd be proud to say I designed. Seriously, that's the
kind of bulletproof performance I aspire towards.

~~~
drfritznunkie
I'm pretty sure Epson engineered these T88-TMs sometime in mid-80s and haven't
changed them since. It seems that the only difference between the versions is
the print speed due to upgraded processors, but nearly all the mechanicals are
exactly the same!

Stuff like this reminds me that at some point people really did give damn and
that you can still buy quality if you're willing to look. Like when I go to
the bank and they're still using a 20 year old Okidata Microline dot matrix
printer for receipts. My dad had one for his office that never skipped a beat
in over 15 years of service.

~~~
286c8cb04bda
_> Stuff like this reminds me that at some point people really did give damn
and that you can still buy quality if you're willing to look._

I agree with this, but it's getting pretty hard. I've got an HP Laserjet 4 --
It's a brute; A beautiful work of functionality which I expect to be able to
hand down onto my children when I pass. Hopefully somebody is still making
consumables for it then.

There are now 20x more products in the same inflation-adjusted price bracket,
but most are over-featured and over-marketed garbage.

------
mmanfrin
__Disclosure __: I work for GoPago, a direct competitor in this market. I am
approaching this with a lot of built-in bias.

Square is pretty late to the game. Their software is pretty, but it has a much
smaller featureset than every other tablet-based POS software out there
(including our own competitors).

Additionally, their prices do not include the cost of the iPad, which is
another $500 on top of this 'business in a box'. They are selling a cash box,
an ipad stand, and a card reader for $300, which is not a terribly great deal.

Their software does not include modifiers, which is of paramount importance if
you're dealing with any volume of customers over a trickle. Their reporting
system is slick, but bare.

Square works very, very well for P2P transactions. People at farmers markets,
flea markets, garage sales, or anywhere where the volume of orders is small
will find great value in Square's handheld offerings. But for businesses, it
is sincerely lacking.

Comparatively, GoPago (my employer) sells GoPago Live, a tablet-based POS
system that costs $99 a month, and comes with literally everything you need:
stand, swiper, cash drawer, plus the tablet, printer, optional scanner/upc
support, wireless chit printer, and a built-in 4G connection. And it comes
with the GoPago Mobile storefront -- which allows your customers to send
orders (with modifiers, instructions, etc) directly to your POS terminal.

I am obviously biased, so take all this with as much salt as you'd like -- but
Square has a lackluster offering polished behind a veneer of masterful
marketing. Their 'business in a box' is a misnomer, as it does not include the
core component: the tablet. GoPago truly offers the complete system.

~~~
johncampbelljr
But at this point I might bet on the company with masterful marketing. If
there is going to be a de facto standard for SMB POS Square might be able to
get there. If Clayton Christensen (Innovator Dilemma) taught me anything it's
that feature gaps can be closed quickly. Marketing/Mindshare gaps, not so
much.

~~~
UnoriginalGuy
I learned this lesson the hard way.

Imagine two competitors. Mine got to market first, it had a better feature
set, and was more similar to what the consumer was used to (based on similar
products on other platforms).

But a competitor shows up. Their product had less features and was "different"
to the established things. But their product was easier to use, it had better
marketing, and people just flocked to it.

It literally took six months for the competitor to match my offering in terms
of features but ultimately none of that matters because if the marketing is
good and the UI is easy to use people will just work around everything
else/put up with it.

By the time they matched my feature set the writing was already on the wall.
Even if I had released an update matching their UI it wouldn't have made a
damn bit of difference since they already had the reputation/user-base.

------
msteinert
Am I missing something here?

Square Readers free [1]

Heckler Design WindFall iPad Stand $129.99 (free shipping) [2]

APG Vasario 1616 Cash Drawer $102.18 (free shipping) [3]

I don't understand why I would pay $66.83 for the convenience of having these
items shipped to me in a pretty box.

[1]: <https://squareup.com/reader> [2]: <http://hecklerdesign.com/windfall/>
[3]: [http://www.amazon.com/APG-Vasario-VB-1616-MultiPRO-
interface...](http://www.amazon.com/APG-Vasario-VB-1616-MultiPRO-
interface/dp/B000V2ATRQ)

~~~
Cryode
One word: convenience. People will pay to have them give them everything they
need up front, instead of researching or finding it themselves.

~~~
smacktoward
Not to mention support. You don't want to have your system flake out and then
find out your vendor won't support you because you bought the wrong cash
drawer.

------
thinkcomp
It's too bad that Square gets all the press when the tech community should
really be spending (at least some of) its energy trying to defeat a law that
makes it a federal crime to start a payments company that actually does change
things.

See <http://www.aarongreenspan.com/writing/essay.html?id=86>

~~~
erikpukinskis
I support your cause, so I'm going to give you some feedback. Feel free to
ignore it.

I've seen a lot of posts and comments from you on HN. I've visited FaceCash a
number of times. You've built some cool infrastructure, and I think many of
your visions about what the future of money should look like are spot on.

That said, you come across as having a lot of anger and entitlement and that
makes me want to ignore you, even though I think you're totally right that our
payment laws are messed up. Complaining about competitors doesn't help you, it
just makes you look like a whiner.

Square is making very crafty strategic moves to slowly maneuver around the
regulatory issues that are sinking you. It's bullshit that they have to, yes.
But that's what they're doing. Criticizing them or the press they're getting
just looks like sour grapes to me.

If you made a strategic plan to actually route around the screwed up stuff in
the system, or to chip away at the edges of the problem with concrete steps,
without denigrating other people who are trying to innovate in the space, I
would feel a lot better about supporting you. But as it is it seems like
you're just going to complain about the state of affairs while your business
gets ensnared in well documented roadblocks.

Again, feel free to ignore this. I could be totally wrong about your strategy.
I just wanted to give you the feedback since you seem to be soliciting support
and may be interested in why people aren't lending it.

~~~
daemon13
Erik, great feedback

------
fijal
I would honestly love to have a flag saying [US only, don't bother if you're
not from there] on articles (like that one)

EDIT: this is genuinely not a snarky comment, but this this company will
likely go bankrupt before I could use it (for example paypal is not
universally available, in SA you need to have an account with a specific bank)

~~~
pbreit
I'll save the HN programmers some cycles: everything here is [US only].

~~~
fijal
That's provably not true. Everything that concerns actual software (and not
service!) is international by-default. That's my personal reason to hate
services, they can be (and often are) discriminatory.

------
gamblor956
Several local restaurants, farmers market vendors, and food trucks use the
Square register, but most others use a local competitor PayDragon or another
competitor (probably GoPago).

The vendors using Square tend to be low-volume, and the use is limited to
paying and tipping. Paper receipts are not included with the order, in
violation of California law (email is not enough! if you don't get a _paper_
receipt you can technically demand a free meal [EDIT: not actually California
law, it's part of the payment processor contract with the vendor]). The
vendors don't use Square for any sort of order management because it can't
handle that. Square is a good fit because these vendors don't need the
advanced features and the simplicity of the interface is a plus.

The food trucks using PayDragon or other competitors are much higher volume.
You also get printed receipts with your order. At least some of these Square
competitors include order management features. Most of them (my primary
experience is with PayDragon vendors) are not much more complicated than
Square. A lot of these vendors started off on Square and graduated to various
competitors when Square stopped being able to handle their needs.

------
iamwil
The design is great. Even though I don't have a brick and mortar store, it
kinda makes me want to buy one, inexplicably.

I wonder how many other things you can sell like this, an all-in-one box, that
doesn't smell cheap, like a 10-in-1 games CD?

The best thing I can think of right now is 'gardening in a box'. I wonder what
'startup in a box' looks like.

~~~
Simucal
This isn't exactly the same as a one time "box" but monthly subscription
services for "boxes" of different items have been taking off lately.

I currently subscribe to Barkbox[0], a monthly subscription to receive dog
treats, toys and accessories every month. A few months ago they had over
20,000 subscribers. They based their model off Birchbox[1], which provides a
monthly subscription of hand picked beauty products.

I've been trying to think of other niches that would be a good fit for this
box model.

[0] <http://barkbox.com>

[1] <http://www.birchbox.com/>

~~~
8bitliving
I love the idea of barkbox!

Ever since I saw this guy's project, <http://www.sotmclub.com/>, I've also
been racking my brain for other ways to leverage this model.

------
gmisra
I own a small business and we have experimented with Square Register and other
ipad-based POS systems. Register is by far the least feature rich of all of
the offerings we looked at - this is not necessarily a bad thing.
Specifically,

 _Cons_

* Register is _not_ designed for restaurant use - many of these reasons have already been discussed on this thread, the biggest being the lack of modifier support.

* Register does not support weight-based pricing (delis, produce, etc).

* Getting meaningful data out of Register is annoying

* There really isn't much tech support for Register - for a lot of businesses, being able to pay somebody to come set-up a POS and train the staff is a real feature.

* The card reader is unreliable - multiple swipes are often required. (A non-free, durable and reliable card reader would be a good thing for Square to consider offering). * No inventory management. (If there was a nice API, other people could solve this problem.)

 _Pros_

* It provides a nicely unified experience across Register and Wallet, which makes enabling Wallet easy.

* Square is still our preferred payment processor for credit card transactions. I especially appreciate how they transfer money into our bank account within 24 hours instead of trying to justify why they should be allowed to hold on to it until the end of the month.

* It is the easiest to set-up and use, and to train employees to use.

In terms of the ipad POS space, none of them are really mature POS systems
yet. If your transaction set is simple, or if you're willing to modify it to
fit into the POS feature-set, then one of them is probably right for you. If
you need Aloha-style customizability, you should wait. My guess is that
different POS solutions will generate traction in different markets, and then
it will become much clearer with solution is right for your business.

Personally, I think the old-style POS's are such a rip-off that figuring out
how to make your small business work with a newer technology is worth it.
Running a food business, however, I would not recommend Register. If I ran a
business with a simpler item set (e.g. a clothing store), then I would
seriously consider it.

 _Asides_

* Yeah, those printers are like tanks. Two thumbs up!

* You definitely want physical security. The bundled stand includes the ability to secure against grab-and-go theft (<http://hecklerdesign.com/windfall/>).

(edit: formatting)

~~~
drfritznunkie
Just curious, what system did you choose and for what type of business? As I
mentioned above, I set up my friend with BreadCrumb which is okay for
quickserve, but not great. There QS workflow needs to be extensively
overhauled, and they need to support sig-less CC transactions and gift cards.

If I were to do it over again, I might actually look a bit more at a QS
specific system, even if it's windows95 POS POS (ha!), because the
efficiencies of workflow may make it worth it.

~~~
gmisra
We actually switched from a retail focus to a wholesale focus, so we not
longer need a POS. We still use Square as our credit card processor.

I have helped set-up a QS implementation on top of the Revel POS and would not
recommend it at all. I've seen the Gopago POS and it's actually probably the
best fit for QS.

------
Kerrick
It's like the hardware bundles that Checkout, POS for Mac OS X, has done for a
long time [0]. It's a smart idea, it makes it easier for small business owners
because there is actually a _large_ variety of hardware to choose from, and
buying a bundle you know is compatible is one less thing to worry about.

[0]: <http://www.checkoutapp.com/features/hardware>

------
Robin_Message
Looks great, but seems to imply that the cash register doesn't open
automatically if you don't buy a printer, which rather ruins the paperless
option.

It might be a good business idea to create a simple piece of hardware that
does the opening if Square doesn't release one soon – hell, the hardware could
just be a broken printer by the sound of it.

But very cool ephemeralisation none-the-less.

~~~
RaphiePS
Where does it imply that?

~~~
danielpal
"Open wirelessly from your iPad when paired with a receipt printer, as
included in the Printing package."

~~~
rbritton
Those kinds of cash drawers tend to just have a RJ11-style port that the
printer can plug into and trigger whenever something prints. They're very dumb
devices otherwise and have no wireless capability.

------
dclowd9901
A friend of mine and myself had this idea a while back, while Square was still
in its infancy. It would allow people to find out _exactly_ where to find the
merchandise that they wanted, its price at that location, the number of items
they had in stock, a way to order it if they wanted to purchase it... It would
bring non big-box stores into the world of organized supply chain.

In order to do this, we posited, we'd have to create a dirt-cheap POS that was
also incredibly easy to setup, use, and track inventory.

The idea was hung up on the fact that we didn't have an "in" -- the clout to
get these smaller stores to invest in us. As we simmered on it, Square turned
hockey stick, created a mobile app, and we already saw that they were headed
in this direction.

Kudos. Even if it wasn't my implementation of the idea, I'm glad to see a step
happen in that direction.

------
abstractbill
_Mount your stand securely to any surface without drilling._

I wonder if "securely" just means my ipad won't fall over, or if it also
somehow means customers can't run away with my ipad while my back is turned.
That seems pretty important to me, and hard to achieve without drilling.

~~~
ravichhabra
Securely indeed means "customers can't run away with my ipad while my back is
turned" as can be seen in the pictures on the Heckler Design website:

<http://hecklerdesign.com/windfall/>

~~~
abstractbill
(that page says the security comes with extra purchases - a Kensington
ClickSafe cable lock, and/or an add-on bolt-down kit).

------
wmblaettler
This directly competes with Revel POS: <http://revelsystems.com>, though
pricing isn't visible on their site, I would believe that Square's offering is
also cheaper -- at least to get setup.

~~~
mmanfrin
Also GoPago Live: <http://www.gopago.com/>

$99/month, no startup costs, competitive credit-processing. Also has a _much_
more robust featureset than Square. It also makes your storefront work on
GoPago's mobile app, which is something that no other modern POS system does
out of the box.

Disclosure: I work at GoPago.

------
cleaver
I love it. Unfortunately, it wouldn't work where you need smartcard chip
readers. A lot of the world outside the US uses smartcard + PIN — I can't
imagine America is too far behind. Hopefully they have that under development.

~~~
mischanix
I believe America is indeed that far behind--a majority of businesses where I
live process credit card transactions over phone networks and have no internet
connection.

That said, for Square, I don't think it would be too difficult to integrate a
SmartCard reader over the audio line as they have with magstripes.

------
signed0
I had hoped they had come up with a more robust version of their card reader.
There have been several times where it has taken 5+ swipes to read my card. I
have also witnessed this happen to people in front of me in line. My credit
card has never had a problem anywhere else.

I've found it easier to just use the Square app on my phone, though I've yet
to see someone in front of me in line use it.

~~~
dmckeon
We found that the prompt after a failed Square swipe is poorly worded. It says
something like: _try again, only faster_ \- but it should say: _try again, at
a different speed_ since swiping the card more slowly often worked when trying
faster did not work.

------
obituary_latte
Dear everyone:

Might you please make use of the noscript functionality provided to you? Many
people like myself do not let arbitrary websites run javascript on their
machines. Without the use of noscript tags, as is the case here, I am met with
an entirely blank page.

Had there been something there, something describing what I'm missing and how
good it is, I very likely would have enabled js temporarily.

But there wasn't, and I didn't.

Very best regards,

ol

~~~
joshdotsmith
There's an awful lot of work involved in graceful degradation, which I'm sure
you know. Will a noscript tag that tells you have JavaScript disabled and that
you're missing out on a richer web experience really convert you?

The problem here is that "many people" is < 1.6% as of 2010; I'm guessing the
number's only dropped since.

Noscript is really only useful for telling people that they need JavaScript
enabled to use the site in case they don't realize they've accidentally
disabled its use.

~~~
obituary_latte
>Will a noscript tag that tells you have JavaScript disabled and that you're
missing out on a richer web experience really convert you?

No. But if it tells me what the content is, or the point of, or really any
decent info on what I'm missing, I usually do. In the case of HN links, I
always do.

I'm not sure where you got the < 1.6% figure -- I won't argue with it -- but
for a startup, that might be a huge number of people. Maybe it doesn't matter.
I don't know.

------
ssttoo
How do square's fees compare to paypal? I got a free square thingie at a
conference, gave it to a vet friend who does a lot of house calls and needs to
accept payments. He ended up not using it, preferring to manually type CC#s in
paypal's UI. Explanation: cheaper

~~~
Cryode
PayPal is not cheaper unless you do a lot of volume:
<https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/paypal-fees>

------
rohern
This is fantastic. The POS space has needed massive disruption for decades.
Kill the dinosaurs!

~~~
dreamdu5t
How is this disruptive? It's still a cash register. Most cash registers for
decades have been digital/electronic in terms of running/totals and counting
cash, and they all have credit card readers too.

~~~
rbritton
For restaurant POS systems the typical cost is typically around $15-20k plus
$2k per terminal. For smaller restaurants that don't need more than this
package offers it's a bargain.

~~~
ErrantX
Which is fine... except this system is pretty unsuitable for even small
restaurants (coffee shops, OK maybe :)).

The target market for this is very squarely (heh!) high end indie shops.

------
hoodq19
I'm not looking for them to include an iPad or a data connection. I'd buy it
if it came with customers. The "business in a box" marketing would then be
spot on.

------
prezjordan
Why is a receipt printer $300? Just curious.

~~~
jonknee
It's a thermal printer with network access, an automated cutter and is rated
to work reliably past 60m lines. That doesn't seem like a lot of money for a
good tool.

------
MatthewB
One thing Square continues to do right is design. Making a POS system sexy is
not an easy thing to do.

~~~
LyndsySimon
Yep - they're Apple for credit card processing. All they do is UX work and
strip out features.

That's a great thing. My wife and I own a small boutique, and we've been using
Square since before the public launch in the App Store. We've just about
outgrown it, but have been challenged to find another solution that fits in-
between the low cost, extremely easy to use Square and the traditional high-
cost, complex to set up POS solutions.

As one of their employees here has said, GoPago seems to fit that nicely, but
we're not decided yet whether we want to commit to a $100 / month payment.
Being a hacker, there's also the fact that I have a room full of hardware in
the back I've collected over the years, which includes a nice flash-based
small format PC, a comparably tiny monitor, bar code readers, and a couple of
retail thermal printers.

I _know_ I'll never actually sit down and hack out a POS system, but it's nice
to think about and the idea has helped in keeping me from sinking a wad of
cash into a system I don't absolutely have to have yet.

------
ForFreedom
Why don't they just do away with the bulky cash register too.

~~~
legutierr
Cash? There aren't many stores that are "credit card only". You'd be turning
away customers.

~~~
pc86
Not to mention that it's illegal.

You cannot turn someone away who wants to pay with cash, that whole "legal
tender" thing.

~~~
heywire
That is a common misconception [0]

[0] [http://www.treasury.gov/resource-
center/faqs/Currency/Pages/...](http://www.treasury.gov/resource-
center/faqs/Currency/Pages/legal-tender.aspx)

~~~
pc86
Thank you for this. From the relevant paragraph:

> _This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a
> valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor.
> There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a
> person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for
> goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own
> policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which
> says otherwise._

------
EToS
squaredown!

