

Betting the Company on Windows 8 - DanielRibeiro
http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2012/07/betting-the-company-on-windows-8.html

======
jpxxx
Microsoft is not composed of morons, their engineering is world-class, and
they're not out to ruin their business or their product line. And the problem
isn't Windows 8.

I'm guessing:

The Windows 8 Desktop side will be top-notch, comforting, and work as before
and as expected.

The Windows 8 Metro side will be top-notch, internally-coherent, well-
received, and offer a reduced complexity set for novice users and those
seeking clarity and easier consumption.

The core OS will be top-notch, work on a grand range of hardware, and work as
before and as expected.

It's not the problem with any of these pieces, it's how they're put together.

The first hour of Windows 8 is maddening, regardless of your technical skill
level, comfort with Windows idioms, or level of resistance to change.

Two thirds of system configuration has been gutted and stranded in Metro mode.
Login (if set up) is baffling and new. The computer violently flips between
Metro and Desktop for reasons you're never quite sure of. It's constantly
trying to drag you to this new place with completely different rules,
appearance, and behavior. UI is hidden and transient.

There's no _guide_. You're just dumped there, and all efforts to work your
computer like you did before are stymied. Yes, eventually YOU figure it out,
but someone who's spent 20 years baking in the same ultra-reduced set of magic
rituals to get the e-mail out is going to feel stupid. And they're not going
to blame themselves - the era when you had no choice but to blame yourself is
long over.

The Microsoft TABLET will be fine. The Microsoft SERVER will be fine. The
Microsoft POWER USER base will be fine. The Microsoft GAMER population will be
fine. The Microsoft DEVELOPERS will be fine.

It's the people who are only on the platform by virtue of "that's where
facebook and my email is" who are going to run away screaming "Vista 2".
That's the chip they're gambling with here, and I think they're going to lose
it.

~~~
jeltz
One advantage for Microsoft is that the Linux desktop environments currently
also mess around with their UIs. Maybe in the long run it may turn out well
but currently Gnome Shell and Unity make life hard for people who just want to
use Facebook.

~~~
jurre
How does Unity make your life hard? I'm on osx myself but I love the unity
interface and everyone that I've seen using it seems to easily find their way.

~~~
jeltz
Change in general is bad for non-power users short term. Especially now that
the interfaces grew less similar to the old windows paradigm it will get
harder to steal the theoretical people escaping the Metro UI.

I have personally not formed any opinion if Unity and Gnome Shell are good or
not. I have used them too little to say, I primarily use XFCE myself which was
very easy to get started with.

~~~
dredmorbius
Even (or especially) power users can resent gratuitous and/or negative change.

------
georgemcbay
"I'd argue that the last truly revolutionary version of Windows was Windows
95. In the subsequent 17 years, we've seen a stream of mostly minor and often
inconsequential design changes in Windows"

I know Jeff is looking at this more on the design side than the technical, but
I'd argue that Windows XP was a much bigger deal than Windows 95, being the
first consumer release based on the NT kernel and thus the first "home"
version of Windows with reasonable memory protection between processes. How
quickly we forget how terrible Windows was in the bad old days of daily BSODs.

~~~
geon
> Windows XP was a much bigger deal than Windows 95, being the first consumer
> release based on the NT kernel

I hung on to 98 until 2001 for gaming, but at that point most stuff worked
perfectly on 2k. While it wasn't intended for "home" users, 2k was the
preferred OS among my group of friends until XPsp2 or so.

I really don't get why the NT kernel wasn't introduced to the "home" market
until XP.

~~~
georgemcbay
I was a big proponent of Windows 2000 as well. Though not marketed/positioned
as such, it was really the start of the merging of the consumer and corporate
OSes... based on NT kernel, but had support for DirectX and other APIs
Microsoft never bothered to support in older NT releases.

~~~
ams6110
I think Windows 2000 Pro was the peak of the windows line.

~~~
chadzawistowski
Windows 2003 was also very good for similar reasons, though you did have to do
some configuring to make it more of a workstation OS than a server OS.

------
troygoode
Having played with the Release Preview I have to say that while Metro is
_very_ cool, the bipolar experience of constantly switching between Metro and
legacy (?) is very _not_ cool. I'm not sure if there was a better way to solve
the problem or not (obviously Microsoft prioritizes backwards-compatibility),
but right now it kills the experience for me.

If Metro apps take off we'll likely see the need to switch to legacy mode
dwindle over time, but with so many of our common day-to-day apps living in
legacy mode at launch I'm afraid Metro will just fade away in most users minds
ala the OSX Dashboard...

~~~
jjcm
Having been using win8 for around a year now (MS employee), I really haven't
noticed it getting in the way. I rarely find myself using a mix of both -
either I'm in metro mode or I'm in a desktop mode. If I'm on a desktop, the
keyboard shortcuts (win + type anything has gotten a lot better since windows
7) work wonders. They've made a lot of speed improvements that have been
really nice. If I'm in metro mode (which admittedly I rarely am, it's just not
that useful right now on a desktop), I tend to stay within that modality. I
think that right now Microsoft is preparing for future hardware with this
release. On traditional desktops, this doesn't make sense. But on things like
the new surface I can actually see it working well.

~~~
SoftwareMaven
I have also used products at the companies I've worked for that 1) worked well
for me and that 2) nobody else can figure out. Eating your own dog food is a
good first start, but never believe it is sufficient to really understand how
users will use a product.

------
mindcrime
_Updated Office 2010 style "ribbon" Explorer UI._

Bleah. Here's a thought: "Newer" and "innovative" do not necessarily equal
"better." As far as I'm concerned, the Ribbon UI sucks big hairy ones, and is
just one more reason to run screaming away from Windows 8.

Then again, since Windows 8 isn't F/OSS, I have exactly zero interest in
running it to begin with, so MS aren't losing a customer here.

~~~
chimi
You use linkedin, twitter, gmail, and quora. Those aren't open source. How do
you reconcile that? Sincere question.

~~~
mindcrime
For one, I don't view services like Quora as being in the same class as
"software I run on my own machine" in the first place. It's a subtle
distinction, granted. But I've just never viewed those services that way.

Secondly, because there aren't adequate F/OSS replacements available. I can
use Fedora Linux with KDE and get an experience that's better than Windows. I
don't know of a Quora like service that makes their code available, that gives
a better experience than Quora. That said, if such a thing were available, I
would prefer it.

~~~
Herring
I don't see it as a subtle distinction. Simple using shouldn't grant rights.
If I touch an ATM, or if I borrow someone's computer there's no reason I
should be able to demand the source.

~~~
rbanffy
Free Software is about user rights. If you are fine with having your rights
restricted by the software provider, then this kind of freedom is not for you.

But I like my own freedoms and I'll avoid buying software that prevents me
from exercising them.

------
stcredzero
_> In the post PC era, Microsoft is betting the company on Windows 8,
desperately trying to serve two masters with one operating system._

They could be onto something here, but it will only pan out if Microsoft can
execute it properly.

Instead of thinking of it as "serving two masters," think of it as treating
all HID paradigms as first class. You have one device that can hold all of
your data and can adapt to either a tablet or a workstation input mode.

Basically, it's the OQO with an iPad form factor.

This could be just as "Post PC" as anything else claiming the moniker. Instead
of all computing being embodied in a PC, the PC/workstation just becomes one
of many input form factors. Whether or not this will fly will depend on how
well Microsoft and partners can achieve the same sort of vertical integration
that Apple has. (It will also depend on how well Google can develop the same
and how well Apple can maintain theirs.)

~~~
tomjen3
Ha, well then I will predict the future with this quote:

>No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the
other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.

~~~
stcredzero
Do you hate your iPad and love your laptop, or vice versa? I don't think it's
an apt analogy.

~~~
AlexandrB
YOU are the master of the iPad/laptop, not the other way around.

~~~
stcredzero
Very good. That's a bigger reason why it's not an apt analogy.

------
emehrkay
> But I have to say, this choice seems, at least so far, to be a bit saner
> approach than the super hard totally incompatible iOS/OSX divide in Apple
> land.

Oh, this was a satire piece.

~~~
Tloewald
I think he must be referring to the change of scrolling direction in 10.7.
That stymied me for over ten seconds.

~~~
ams6110
I just changed it back in the Preferences. I tried to get used to it but
somehow while it makes total sense on-glass it seems absolutely backwards on a
touch pad. Maybe just too much muscle memory.

------
jiggy2011
The thing with Windows 8 is that the only devices it seems to make sense on
are the Surface laptop things.

The question remains as to whether OEMs will start to make similar devices and
try and compete with Microsoft (who will have an inherent advantage). For the
corporate desktop , there is still probably a lot of mileage left in Windows
7.

~~~
madoublet
I agree to a point. Windows 8 works without touch, but it doesn't have the
same wow factor. With that said, I cannot imagine buying a new device without
touch.

~~~
ori_b
I can't imagine getting real work done on a touch device. Touch device implies
it's screen is small enough to hold in one hand. In other words, the screen is
too small to spread a few browser windows on. Touch implies discouraging the
use of a mouse. Fingers are fuzzy and annoying for precise selection, and
onscreen keyboards suck. By the time you've gotten an external keyboard and
mouse to work around this, you no longer have a touch device.

I can't imagine buying a touch device for work. I wouldn't object to getting
one to watch movies or read books on.

~~~
jules
There are larger touch devices out there, e.g. Thinkpads. I don't see why a
screen has to be small to have touch.

~~~
ori_b
You're right. It can be clunky instead.

------
eande
I start to see two camps on Windows8. Some who love the surface usage idea,
tech people who can easily adapt and the other camp having a real challenge
with the new UI. The majority of users are the second part and I think it will
be a long hard battle for MS to convince that group. At least they tried
something new.

~~~
Zenst
As long as I can pull up a command prompt I realy don't care as it's the
easiest way to move all files starting in "A" and ending in "Z" (move A*Z
./wibble/wap/woo/.). Show me a GUI that does it easier and then we can talk
about progress.

~~~
pbz
Using Total Commander, hit F6 (move), hit tab to move to the "only files of
this type" box, type "A*Z", and then hit Enter.

------
snorkel
Windows 95 was the last time I can recall a major rev of Windows lived up to
its pre-release hype. This Windows 8 hype reminds me of the salivating over
Longhorn which turned out as Windows Vista, again.

~~~
rbanffy
Well... The difference between what has been show of Windows 8 and the preview
versions you can download and run are small when compared to the Longhorn
PDC'03 video and what was actually delivered as Vista.

In fact, the PDC'03 Longhorn is still light-years ahead of Windows 8.

------
erikpukinskis
Whenever anyone lists the new copy dialog as one of the top features of
Windows 8, it really makes Windows 8 sound bad.

I mean, seriously? The _copy dialog_? The thing whose job it is to say "OK,
you've got plenty of time, go take a shower" and "OK, we're almost there!"

I'm sorry, this is not a key piece of infrastructure. If that's one of the
most exciting things you can point to on Windows 8, that says to me _there's
not much exciting to point to_.

~~~
neotek
Come on, nobody is suggesting the copy dialog is the pinnacle of Windows 8,
but it's important because it solves a very common and very visible
frustration with previous versions of Windows.

~~~
ams6110
Does it? What frustration is that? Copying files takes time, everybody gets
that, what's the frustration? The animation isn't cute enough?

~~~
neotek
Users regularly express frustration with the inaccurate way Windows calculates
time estimates on file transfers and the fact that you can't add or remove
files in the queue without using a third party application like Teracopy.

~~~
hammersend
I would imagine I'm about as much of a "power user" as anyone else on here and
I couldn't care less about either of the things you just mentioned. Making a
big deal out of the file copy dialog on a new OS does seem a bit over the top.

------
jsz0
It's amazing how fast things change these days. Good 7" tablets for $200-$250
really undermine the whole Windows 8 strategy. Carrying around a laptop and a
cheap 7" tablet that is actually light enough to hold for long periods of time
is going to be a better choice for most people than the 2 pound Surface Pro
which may very well end up costing more than two separate devices.

------
yawgmoth
The trend of 'surface won't suffice! I need a workstation to get real work
done!' reminds me of 'a UI won't suffice! I need a command line to get real
work done!'.

~~~
lmm
You say that like it's not true. I've never met a decent developer who runs
windows, and the obvious explanation is that its command line is still
hopelessly inadequate.

~~~
yawgmoth
No, the obvious explanation is that you haven't met many Windows devs. There
are many talented .NET developers.

------
jamesaguilar
I just don't really get why they can't do what Apple does. There are two
metaphors here, one for fingers, one for keyboard and mouse. For systems with
a keyboard and mouse, use the metaphor that suits them better. Seems simple.

~~~
cooldeal
I for one am glad that someone is taking on the space between the Macbook Air
and iPad so that I don't need to spend on and lug around two devices.

If you want an iOS clone, there's always Android. Why should Windows too play
a me-too copycat and reduce choice to the user? What benefit is there to that?

~~~
jamesaguilar
I don't want an iOS clone. I want desktop Windows to continue to exist. As it
is, I will be forced to use a touch UI on my desktop, which is less than
optimal for keyboard-and-mouse.

------
awaretek
Microsoft abused me for years. They had a monopoly, I had to use Windows and
Office ( I still do at work for many things).

Now , thank god almighty, I have choices. They will have to do a lot better
than Windows 8 to rope me back into the corral.

Metro and Windows 8 might be good enough if introduced by any other company.
Microsoft is not any other company.

I am not a ludite nor a nutjob. I have real work to do and am forced to use
Microsoft products. But I will roast in hell before I give them any benefit of
the doubt. Ever.

I hate Microsoft.

~~~
Maascamp
Why are you here commenting on this then? Just avoid the Microsoft articles
and we can avoid your valueless commentary.

------
Zenst
I'm amazed that Windows is sold and tied to one user interface!

Why they don't afford the user choice like Linux I don't know.

Forcing users to make a limited choice of one is going to upset many, change
can be bad as well as good.

Come SP1/2 of windows8 they will offer alternative user interfaces - can smell
the outcome in the air. Failing that they will have a active market in
alternatives that will become more mainstream aware than the alternatives
currently.

~~~
jjcm
"Why they don't afford the user choice like Linux I don't know."

You can choose to have the standard desktop be the default, is that what you
mean?

~~~
Zenst
What i mean is you get the windows GUI and are not afforded any alternatives
like you are browsers, there are alternatives out there but they are not for
the faint hearted and that in itself is the issue. Tech's like us have no
issue with them but for joe public then they only see what they are given and
when they are not offered an option then they see no choice.

------
smashing
"But don't take my word for it. Download the free Release Preview and try
Windows 8 yourself."

Does this sound like marketing to anyone else?

~~~
zachwill
To me, it came off along the same vein as Daring Fireball, but in a worse
fashion — a little too pro-Windows and the new features.

~~~
tikhonj
I can certainly see how this is _like_ Daring Fireball: he does neglect to
talk about any downsides. But I can't imagine how this is _worse_ , except
that it's about Windows rather than OS X.

Personally, I find Daring Fireball significantly more smug and annoying--
unlike this post, Daring Fireball also likes to constantly rag on Android and
implicitly assumes almost everything Apple does is perfect.

------
lurkinggrue
It feels like they took the widgets that I never quite got into using and
shoved them in my face at full screen.

The new meto programs have no depth or maturity. I had the same problem trying
to do serious work on android.

It wasn't worth jumping though the extra hoops to get the same stuff done.

That being said... a tablet is the best bathroom computer.

------
thom
Oh look, they've updated the copy dialog again. Tell you what: maybe just make
it as fast as it can possibly be, and I'll promise not to ask how long it's
taking.

We seem to be heading towards a point where booting Windows is going to take
longer than copying a single file.

~~~
dpark
Oh look, copying 200GB of data across the network is slow. I wonder how long
it will take.

~~~
thom
Making every copy operation excruciating just to support the few cases where
you might actually benefit from the fullscreen 3D copy visualisation with
Dolby Surround Sound isn't a design tradeoff with which I've been particularly
satisfied. It'd be fine if you could hold down Shift or something to say
"please don't muck about". It's even worse when it's putting stuff in the
Recycle Bin, at which point you really, _really_ don't care.

Your mileage is entirely welcome to vary, and perhaps the performance of this
new dialog is such that I won't notice it as much as its Vista and Windows 7
counterparts. To be honest I couldn't work out the Windows 8 preview to the
point where I could even find a file, let alone copy it somewhere.

~~~
dpark
I'm not clear what your complaint actually is. Are you upset because the
dialog exists at all? Would you rather that you get no convenient way to know
when the copy is complete? Or are you annoyed by the extra visualizations and
such? It seems like you could simply not expand the additional info.

As for the recycle dialog, I'm pretty sure that's gone in Windows 8.

------
RivieraKid
Windows 8 is 2 operating systems for a price of one, that's one of the few
positive things about it :)

Metro is nice for tablets but it's clearly inefficient as a desktop OS.
Efficiency and features are more important than original and pretty UI.

~~~
sixothree
Well, unless you get one of the RT tablets.

------
capkutay
I'm actually pretty impressed by Windows 8...but do I see myself actually
buying an MSFT tablet over the next iPad? At this point...no.

~~~
sixothree
How about instead of a new notebook computer? I think that's where this is
really going to be a attractive to people.

------
mrdodge
How often do people use the Task Manager? I keep hearing about how great it is
in every Windows 8 review.

~~~
jinushaun
Every day. Ideally, I should never need to open the task manager, but I
do—even on OS X.

