
Housing official in SV resigns because she can't afford to live there - gdilla
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/aug/11/silicon-valley-housing-official-resigns-california-home-prices
======
chmaynard
From another article on this topic: "Many tech workers start out in San
Francisco to boost salary and establish themselves before moving to more
affordable markets." This is a key insight. Moving to the San Francisco Bay
Area to establish a career is the industry equivalent of earning a Ph.D. at a
major research university.

In this sense, the entire SF Bay Area is essentially a huge college town. It's
perfectly normal for a college graduate to pick up and move elsewhere to start
a family and live in a more affordable place. This is what Kate Downing and
many others are doing.

~~~
dalke
What? I strongly disagree. I moved to the Bay Area to establish a software
development career, and I've been in a PhD program at a major research
university.

The connection between them is tenuous at best. At the very least, why is it
equivalent to a PhD and not MS or BS?

~~~
chmaynard
A Ph.D. from a top university and 10 years working in the SF Bay Area tech
industry are comparable in terms of their potential to increase one's earning
power.

~~~
dalke
1) "10 years in the tech industry" is not the same as "Moving to the San
Francisco Bay Area to establish a career", which you originally said.

2) People rarely get a PhD to maximize earning power, so that's a weak proxy.
The career path are also different. I think developers after 20 years are more
than PhD researchers to become managers. (There are plenty of exceptions.)

3) Last I looked at the numbers, some years ago, a MS in computer science lead
to higher career earnings than a PhD. (That's specific to CS - other fields
are different.)

What is the source of your numbers? The best I could find was
[https://www2.census.gov/library/infographics/pathways/engine...](https://www2.census.gov/library/infographics/pathways/engineering.pdf)
which says that in general lifetime earnings for a software developer with a
BS is $3.3M while a MS is worth an additional $200K. The US Census numbers
don't appear to take cost-of-living into account.

I couldn't find numbers for people who started a career with 10 years in the
Bay Area, nor for PhD graduates of top research universities.

4) "Equivalent" is a very broad term. Had you said "career earnings" I
wouldn't have a problem. But a PhD nominally means that someone is able do to
independent research. 10 years in industry means, what, that someone is able
to be employed in industry? That's more like a MS than a PhD.

~~~
chmaynard
1) I'm not making a reasoned argument supported by data. I'm suggesting a new
metaphor that might help us understand what attracts and motivates many tech
workers in the SF Bay Area.

2,3,4) I think you're taking my metaphor literally, which is not very useful.

I lived in the South Bay for 22 years working in various tech jobs, and I
learned a few things about Silicon Valley culture (although I'm certainly no
expert). Many young people with some degree of formal education and technical
experience move to the Bay Area to establish careers and accumulate some
capital. A few get wealthy and can afford to acquire property in the Bay Area
and settle down to a reasonably normal life. Most, however, are transient
workers who get valuable training and experience that will serve them well
when they decide to move to a more affordable place. The "college town"
metaphor is my way of describing this pattern.

~~~
dalke
Yes, and I'm arguing that it's a poor metaphor.

I think the metaphor you're looking for is that they are journeymen, and the
time in the Bay Area their journeyman years.

In the college town metaphor, most of the students are working towards their
bachelor degree, not PhD.

Have you ever been in a PhD program? Do you know many PhD researchers who did
not end up in the Bay Area? Could you ask them if they think their PhD work
was equivalent to 10 years as a software developer?

~~~
chmaynard
My father was an organic chemist with a Ph.D. from Yale. After earning his
degree, he moved to Delaware to work for DuPont, along with thousands of other
scientists. He was paid very well in comparison to the average blue collar or
even white collar worker in the same city, so I think his Ph.D. paid off
handsomely.

My parents didn't wait to start a family, purchase property, and start
building personal wealth. They got involved in community affairs and local
politics. They put down roots and had a balanced life.

In contrast, many Bay Area tech workers are living like extended adolescents,
living in rental housing and working on a "corporate campus" for a company
that is essentially in loco parentis. Typically they are not engaged in local
community affairs or politics. Is this not somewhat like college?

~~~
dalke
The Baby Boomer era is past. What you describe of your father's experience no
longer really exists. If that's the only person you know, then your
impressions of the career possibilities of a PhD are seriously out of date.

In your father's era, many blue collar workers could also "start a family,
purchase property, and start building personal wealth" with their jobs,
including straight out of high school.

For that matter, the programmers of the 1960s and 1970s also had little
problem getting a solid job.

Nowadays with a PhD in chemistry you often end up doing a postdoc or two for
several years. As two data points,
[https://sankirnam.wordpress.com/category/chemistry-
jobs-2/](https://sankirnam.wordpress.com/category/chemistry-jobs-2/) :

> I didn’t do a postdoc because I wanted to get an industry job, but now it
> appears that a postdoc is necessary – and this is information that I only
> found out _after_ graduating.

That in turn points to [http://justlikecooking.blogspot.com/2016/05/postdoc-
required...](http://justlikecooking.blogspot.com/2016/05/postdoc-required-
check-job-ads.html) , which points out job ads for industry which require
post-doc experience.

An organic chemist now likely will be in the early 30s before being able to do
the things your father did immediately after graduating. And without having to
deal with issues like
[http://www.nature.com/naturejobs/science/articles/10.1038/nj...](http://www.nature.com/naturejobs/science/articles/10.1038/nj7568-279a)
or
[http://www.nature.com/naturejobs/science/articles/10.1038/nj...](http://www.nature.com/naturejobs/science/articles/10.1038/nj6924-766a)
. Yes, postdocs often have roommates:
[https://duckduckgo.com/?q=postdoc+roommate&t=ffsb&ia=web](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=postdoc+roommate&t=ffsb&ia=web)
.

You end with "Is this not somewhat like college". Absolutely, I agree. My
point is that what you describe is much more like the college experience than
it is the PhD experience.

Or like a journeyman, who _also_ , at least traditionally, does not 'put down
roots'.

