
Teenagers Hate Facebook, but They're Not Logging Off - duggieawesome
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/05/22/teenagers_hate_facebook_a_pew_study_says_that_94_percent_of_teens_use_facebook.html
======
dkulchenko
Teen here.

I'm firmly in the "hate it but can't stop using it" camp. I've tried G+, and
for a brief period a few of my friends tried it as well, but we switched back
when it failed to reach critical mass. That's all Facebook has going for it,
really, is the people using it; I'm sure most of us would switch to a better
network if given the chance, but we won't do it unless a significant majority
of our friends come along with us.

I don't like Facebook's approach to privacy, I absolutely hate how many
permissions the Facebook app requires on my Android phone, but if I cut myself
off of Facebook I'm losing out on a huge, huge percentage of social
interaction with people who I know but am not particularly close to (which for
most people is at least 80% of their friends list). Plus all the history I've
amassed on Facebook since grade 7.

For better or worse, teens are stuck on Facebook for the time being, and
unlike the move from MySpace, I don't see switching off of it happening any
time soon. Sure, there's Twitter, Instagram, etc. which are also heavily used
by my age group, but only as secondary networks - Facebook remains the
definition of online social interaction.

EDIT: A few more thoughts:

An important part of it mentioned elsewhere in the thread is the fact that
Facebook basically acts as a glorified address book/communications hub - if I
want Chris to come to my party or add him to a group conversation about
something or share a picture with him, all I need is his name. Not an email,
not a phone number, just a name. It's pretty incredible if you think about it.
Nothing else comes close.

~~~
Perceval
> if I cut myself off of Facebook I'm losing out on a huge, huge percentage of
> social interaction

Is it possible to have a Facebook account but just use it as a back-end? For
instance, don't use the website or the app. But use Cue to pull events out
onto your calendar, and Verbs to get Facebook chat, and so on?

<https://www.cueup.com/>

<http://verbs.im/>

Is there a way to use a constellation of apps that access Facebook info so
that you effectively don't have to be on Facebook itself?

~~~
gcr
There was a time (maybe it's still possible) when Facebook Chat used XMPP,
which means you could use a client like bitlbee or pdigin to connect.

~~~
rdl
It was never very stable.

~~~
plus9z
Define stable. Do you mean it crashes? or that it drops out once in a while?
Because I use Facebook over XMPP and I've never actually experienced any
problems.

~~~
rdl
It dropped a lot when I tried using it, and the "in browser and Adium and a
Pidgin" combination was super unstable -- caused it to crash a lot more. It
may have improved, but I couldn't get it to stay connected more than 15
minutes. This was about 2 years ago maybe?

------
mladenkovacevic
If anyone can leave Facebook it's teens. Their social networks aren't
developed/mature enough where they have to depend on other people's social
network preferences. Most teens could literally leave on a whim and bring most
of their friend with them. I still remember how quick the exodus from ICQ to
MSN was (and nobody hated ICQ.. it just kinda happened).

Also when a teen tells you that they hate something because there's too much
drama.. it means they fuckin' love it. They CAN leave but they don't want to
because Facebook is so effective at stoking their out-of-control hormones.
With Instagram in the fold this is especially true. As for why everyone else
is on Facebook? Well it's because everyone else is on Facebook. And how else
are you going to see pictures from your out-of-the-country relatives or creep
on your high-school crush. I think Facebook has reached enough critical mass
to not have to worry about becoming irrelevant for quite some time. For the
record I don't use Facebook much myself, other than to keep a reminder of when
everyone's birthday is.

~~~
k-mcgrady
>> "If anyone can leave Facebook it's teens. Their social networks aren't
developed/mature enough where they have to depend on other people's social
network preferences. Most teens could literally leave on a whim and bring most
of their friend with them. I still remember how quick the exodus from ICQ to
MSN was (and nobody hated ICQ.. it just kinda happened)."

I think it's completely the opposite. It's not bringing your friends to a new
network that's the hard part - it's bringing your data (mainly photos).
Getting thousands of photos out of Facebook that are nicely tagged and
commented on and into another network is impossible. Getting the photos out is
possible but it's a lot of work. Switching IM networks is much easier than
switching social networks which have so much data we value stored in them.

Another problem is that teenagers are constantly meeting new people. The
default is not to ask for a phone number but for an add on Facebook. If you
aren't on it you aren't going to be able to keep in touch with and develop a
friendship with this new person you've just met.

~~~
harryf
What's that saying? "It's not you that owns your possessions, it's your
possessions that owns you"

s/possessions/data/

~~~
k-mcgrady
Photos have too much sentimental value attached to them to think of them as
just another 'possession'. They will provide value to you in 10 years, 25
years, and 50 years and can't be easily replaced.

~~~
mladenkovacevic
I don't want to stereotype teens since I'm sure there are a lot of mature,
insightful teenagers, but do you think most teens place a lot of importance on
their data? Do they want to keep and treasure all their selfies and random
party pics well into their college years?

16-21 is like a personality black hole for most people. It's a time when
you're super self-absorbed and you're living from moment to moment, literally
changing every day. If I'm totally alone here then please ignore me, but once
in a while I will run into a random picture of me when I was 17 or something
and I can't help but think "who the fuck is this person".. and immediately
want to bury that particular picture. Pictures with family are a different
story, those I treasure immensely. But they are so few and far between, and
certainly would not have been considered Facebook-worthy in my teens.

~~~
k-mcgrady
As a 22 year old I grew up with social networks, and it was also the time when
digital cameras where first becoming more prevalent, so there are photos I
have of me online stretching back to when I was 14. Every now and then I enjoy
looking back on those photos. It's not like my profile is filled with photos
of me. It's photos of me with other people. Friends I don't know anymore, ex-
girlfriends, and people I still keep in touch with. The great thing about
Facebook is that I took probably less than 5% of these photos. Most were taken
by friends and I was tagged in them. I think that's the most valuable thing
about Facebook for me. I always feel awkward taking photos (like I'm
disturbing people or annoying them). The fact that other people I'm with can
take the photos and tag me in them and share the album is invaluable. Sure
there are always photos that make you cringe but I don't think age has
anything to do with it. I'm sure that when I'm 40 and look back at pictures of
me in my late 20s/early 30s there will be pictures that make me cringe too.

~~~
mladenkovacevic
Maybe it's a generational thing then; digitally native millennials vs. gen-y
or something. Either way, a decade makes a big difference in how you use the
technology around you.

------
_lex
I guess facebook has truly become a utility: It's a semi-monopolist users
hate, but they find it too hard to cut the cord. Sounds like AT&T, Comcast
etc.

~~~
mehrzad
As a teen who did cut the cord (edit: of Facebook) out of annoyance of rampant
reposting and other irritating stuff, I've been fine. I don't want to say I'm
popular because I'm not, but if you have a standing within your friend circle
you might be able to get them to use _your_ thing. For me, that was my IRC
channel.

~~~
AJ007
Ok, I'm an adult in my later 20s. I have a mixture of friends and business
associates on Facebook.

I have friends who post annoying stuff (blocked from feed) and friends who
posted really inappropriate comments on my stuff (unfriended.)

Is there some part to teen usage that discourages blocking a friend's feed or
unfriending someone?

~~~
mehrzad
>Is there some part to teen usage that discourages blocking a friend's feed or
unfriending someone?

Possibly, but for me I guess that seemed like losing a valuable news source
unless it got really bad, which had happened.. Looking back though, deleting
was probably too extreme, and I still use Twitter /and/ Instagram.

------
neilk
In 2007, danah boyd posited that teens don't get stuck to social networks. The
theory was that they didn't need to maintain a giant extended network, because
they saw their friends every day anyway. Besides they are shifting friend
groups constantly, so rebuilding a profile is like spring cleaning.

[http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2007/01/01/ephemer...](http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2007/01/01/ephemeral_profi.html)

She later argues that Facebook became the network of choice among college-
bound kids. Maybe that sort of person does want to maintain an extended
network (dkulchenko's example is about internships, for instance).

So was is it true that teens are more able to switch, or not? Was it always
wrong? Has it changed as Facebook ate the entire social networking universe? I
would appreciate it if younger HN'ers weighed in.

------
Zelphyr
"Facebook is the living dead: the most popular, least relevant social network
where teenagers and adults alike gather out of fear of missing out on things
that don't even make them happy."

Best description of Facebook I've ever read.

~~~
chm
I agree.

I have looked back only once since quitting Facebook three years ago. That was
yesterday, when I met with old-time friends who suggested I should keep a page
in order to get in more frequent contact with them.

------
redidas
I wonder if there's a market for several smaller "social" networks centered
around a single focus?

I was in college when facebook was expanding through universities. It was
great, and the experience and content on facebook mirrored college life.

When it expanded beyond college and added the news feed, I found myself using
it less. College-me was not the person I was for my grandma. I didn't care
about the political views of my parents' friend who I hadn't seen in 10 years.

And it wasn't just me - Every now and then I log in to facebook to see what
old classmates have been up to, and a lot of them have become inactive like
myself.

The article mentions teens liking instagram more - its has a purpose centered
around photos, and that it.

Writing this, I kind of miss old facebook and its limited uses.

~~~
k-mcgrady
I hate to be the one to say it but it sounds like you stopped using Facebook
because of the people you added. If you want to keep it for college-you don't
add your Grandma or parents. I've managed to keep my friends list quite small
by not adding people I meet once and never again, and by only adding a few
close family members (and then using the privacy controls when sharing to only
explicitly share to them when I need to). I've ignored lots of requests for
family members and strangers/acquaintances and the quality of my news feed is
still as good as it ever was.

Single focus social networks like Instagram are great but most people I know
that use them just share that stuff out to Facebook anyway.

------
crazygringo
Ummm... "hate"?! Give me a break. Sensationalist headline.

According to the article, _one_ 15-year-old girl said she "hated" it.
Otherwise, the majority complained about adults, negative interactions and
oversharing -- none of which really has anything to do with Facebook, but
rather the specific friends they've added, or the concept of a social network
in general.

~~~
supergauntlet
As one of the teens they're talking about - and one with friends who feel the
same - we really don't like Facebook. For some reason, Facebook thinks its
being useful by showing me random band fanpages that I never 'liked' in the
first place. They're just adding more noise. The game requests were bad
enough, but at least you could easily ban those from showing up.

That doesn't even begin to get into the privacy issues and the other
irritating shit.

The only thing I really use facebook for is an address book with chat.

~~~
threeseed
The plural of anecdote is not data. Just because you and your circle of
friends don't like Facebook doesn't mean much. Especially given that Facebook
is a worldwide service and attitudes/behaviours of people differ from country
to country.

The facts are that Facebook's user count is growing around 20% year on year
with extremely high engagement. So people aren't moving.

------
stephengillie
Mobile page looks down, but article is still up on main page:
[http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/05/22/teenagers_ha...](http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/05/22/teenagers_hate_facebook_a_pew_study_says_that_94_percent_of_teens_use_facebook.html)

~~~
examancer
Thanks for this link. Frustrated that posters think they are clever by linking
to a mobile version of a story, to avoid ads or whatever. I couldn't find the
non-mobile story on slate.com for some reason.

I'd rather support the magazine and view their silly ads. Plus, the mobile
version stretches paragraphs across the width of the entire browser window,
which is unreadable using the window size I normally use, and I'd prefer not
to have to resize my window to read an article.

~~~
chadgeidel
I'm going to give the poster the benefit of the doubt here. It's
extraordinarily difficult to post a non-mobile link from a mobile device. I've
had several instances where I've just given up trying to make a decent post on
my iPad and just wait until I'm home to make the post.

~~~
stephengillie
I still struggle to think of the iPad as a "mobile" device. Tablets, like
laptops, are too big for the pockets sewn into most clothing, so we need to
either carry them everywhere, or stow them inside a bag, and carry that
everywhere. Either way, bringing one requires more than just putting the
device in a pocket.

~~~
chadgeidel
Sure - I agree with your sentiment. Try telling that to every web developer
out there that is _sure_ you want a special experience for your "crippled"
machine (based on user agent obviously).

The problem is many, many sites identify the thing you are using as one of 2
devices: a "Desktop Computer" and a "Mobile/Tablet device".

------
xpose2000
Next headline. . . "Teens hate parents, but Can't Leave". Give me a break.

~~~
psbp
Um, I think the two might coincide.

------
fossuser
I'm always a little confused why hacker news seems to love to hate facebook.
Pretty weak posts like this appear and everyone in the comments gets to brag
about how they don't have a facebook or facebook is on the way out etc.

~~~
JoeKM
Posts like yours always show up too. It's cyclic insanity on HN. Any Facebook
thread devolves into: "I don't use Facebook." and "Why do people on HN hate
Facebook?"

Any PHP post devolves into: "I hate PHP." and "Why do HNers hate PHP?"

Any Google post devolves into "I hate Google." and "Why do HNers hate Google?"

Any Apple post..

On and on and on.

~~~
saraid216
I feel like someone should actually go through old threads that no one is
updating anymore and just analyze frequency and timing.

~~~
hayksaakian
this is true on reddit, and other social sites.

1st day/time X is (+over the top adjectives) good / bad 2nd day/time X is
actually bad / good 3rd day/time Why do people argue about whether is actually
bad / good 4th date/time meta post about meta post

repeat the following week/month/year/etc.

------
mosqutip
Facebook has no real incentive to reach out to this age group. They won't earn
much profit off of teens, and teens are younger than their original
demographic (college-aged students).

Also, I thought the line about "everyone says Facebook is dying" was quite
telling. The stats say otherwise, but people will believe what they want (or
what the media tells them).

~~~
chatmasta
What about in five years, when the same teens are college students?

~~~
mk1x
Exactly, of course you should focus on your most profitable demographic when
launching a new product. But once you have a sustainable business it's
important to think about where your money will be coming from in the future.

I doubt anyone will say that tobacco companies marketing to teenagers is a bad
idea because they can't even buy the product yet. It ensures the long term
profitability of the company.

~~~
Chronic24
If it is not a bad idea, then why don't I see them marketing cigarettes to
teens and/or lobbing congress (to get X law passed).

~~~
hkolek
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_advertising#Targeting_y...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_advertising#Targeting_youth)

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_advertising#Advertiseme...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_advertising#Advertisement_control)

------
protomyth
the link to the report: [http://www.pewinternet.org/Reports/2013/Teens-Social-
Media-A...](http://www.pewinternet.org/Reports/2013/Teens-Social-Media-And-
Privacy.aspx)

------
ethnt
I'm a senior in high school, and I've found that with college coming up,
Facebook is becoming increasingly important to talk with the other kids that
are in your college class. There's a group for my class, and I've already
befriended a few of them. This sort of community isn't found on places like
Twitter.

A large part of my high school class is on Twitter, but I can't stand to
follow them. Most of them are blithering idiots, spewing incomplete, barely
legible sentences about some stupid thing they've done.

I have tried to get people to use Path, but it hasn't caught. I see it as the
replacement for Facebook. However, as other commenters have said, it would be
impossible for Path to compete with Facebook because they don't have the sheer
numbers of people that Facebook has. If I meet someone and want to continue
communicating with them online, Facebook is the place to do that: I know that
they're there.

~~~
TillE
This is precisely the problem - all current "social networks" are terrible.
Facebook will be killed, but it won't be done by incremental change. Social
networking needs another revolution, something to make it relevant and
exciting as Facebook was in its first few years.

------
superuser2
When people I know (teens) say they "hate" Facebook, they mean they hate the
amount of time they waste on Facebook. That's my chief complaint. It's an easy
thing to do while mentally idling, and costs no effort, attention, or money.
And you're on a variable-ratio schedule for dopamine hits. I quickly developed
a habit where I spend dead time mindlessly browsing Facebook instead of doing
something productive.

This is the _only_ complaint I hear from my friends. Nobody in my age group
has ever mentioned ad targeting, and people with nosy adult "friends" know how
to use privacy settings to hide from them. The only reason I've ever been
given in person for quitting Facebook is the time-sink.

My point is that we don't want to "leave" to another social network. We want
to stop using social networking. But we can't, because spam-free email by real
name is powerful, locked in, and occasionally necessary.

------
coin
I absolutely hate these mobile "optimized" sites (Slate) that disable pinch
zoom.

------
LordHumungous
People "hate" facebook the same way that an older generation "hated" TV. Yeah
it's full of shallow, vapid content, but it's entertaining, and as long as it
continues to be entertaining people will use it.

------
pdenya
> “Honestly,” one 15-year-old girl told Pew, “I'm on it constantly but I hate
> it so much.”

Maybe I'm too far from high school but I can't picture a situation where you
would have to use FB "constantly" even though you "hate it". It's not really
explained in the article either, there's just some superficial quotes about
"Drama" and "Adult presence".

I know adult's who say they hate facebook but maintain accounts but this
equates to logging in for a couple minutes a couple times a week, liking some
photos, maybe posting a few and then getting on with their day.

~~~
mosqutip
It's probably more along the lines of "I hate that I have to use Facebook,
because that's the cool thing to do, but everyone else uses it, so I'd be even
more uncool if I didn't use it."

~~~
onlyup
No more like:

If I didn't use Facebook I wouldn't know what everyone is talking about. See
also: reality TV.

~~~
silvestrov
It's high school, it's so easy to become ostracized if you don't do the same
as all the other kids in class.

------
etjossem
Tangentially related: a Facebook app called Social Roulette (which purported
to have a 1/6 chance of "helping" a user delete his/her account) was recently
deactivated.

<http://fffff.at/when-you-dont-own-yourself/>

Facebook certainly doesn't want to make leaving easy, but really, what else
did we expect?

------
adregan
I really wish facebook could help me manage the outer reaches of my social
sphere—those I contact infrequently, whom I care about, but am not in constant
communication. Something that would prod me to send a message or something to
an old friend I hadn't remembered to email in the past month or so.

~~~
jacalata
facebook as CRM? I wonder if you could could build an app that did that...

------
Servora
There is a reason why Facebook remains the most popular social media website.
It's ability to link to thousands of different websites and apps gives its an
edge up against other social media websites.

------
nuttendorfer
Seems to me like people are returning to instant messaging in the form of
mobile messaging like WhatsApp and Kik. I wonder who will come out as the
winner in this race.

------
mrwnmonm
i don't like facebook, but i think it's the only service that got the social
network right, just tell me what are the real competitors to facebook, don't
say G+

~~~
zarify
I suspect that no answer will make you happy here, since a social network
"getting it right" is where all the people are. You can't be getting it right
if a significant number of people aren't there, and you can't be a competitor
unless you're getting it right (the threshold for 'significant' seems to
mainly depend on which network you personally use ;P).

I'm one of those strange people who is perfectly happy on G+. I was 'friends'
with a significantly larger number of people I knew in meatspace when I was on
Facebook compared to G+, but they were people I had lost touch with for a
reason (regardless if whether that was my fault or theirs). G+ has allowed me
to follow and interact with a broader range of interesting people that I don't
know personally or event tangentially, and so to me, that makes it a much more
useful social network that Facebook ever was.

------
calinet6
Teens hate everything. Don't worry, they'll grow out of it.

------
enriclluelles
Teens spend 30 seconds per minute hating facebook, right after the 30 seconds
they spent loving it

------
mtdewcmu
Robots have already become our masters, without firing a shot.

