
People using Venmo to spy on cheating spouses - maxshmax
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/venmo-stalkers-or-amateur-sleuths-they-out-cheating-boyfriends-spy-on-exes-and-see-who-buys-drugs-2018-05-11
======
gnicholas
When I first created a Venmo account, I was shocked to see users' payments
flowing through my feed and immediately found a way to make my payments
private.

But I could never find a way to effectively unlink the social media account
(FB) that I had used to find my first friend/payee. I think I unlinked the
account, but I still see payments from all the people that Venmo made me
follow as a result of linking the now-unlinked FB account.

I haven't used the app in a long time, and I wonder if this mass-unfollow
feature has been added. I know they think that people open Venmo to check
their feed, but some people find the public feed creepy, and it makes me use
the app less in favor of alternatives.

~~~
rconti
I'm utterly perplexed that Venmo is even a thing.

When I first started hearing about it maybe 5-6 years ago, I just figured, I
already have PayPal and Square Cash, I'm too old, nobody I know uses Venmo,
why bother.

I've mostly ignored that it existed except occasionally hearing (usually
younger) folks talking about it.

A couple of months ago I was telling some people at work that I'm too old for
it, and Square Cash works well enough for me, and commented that I can't see
how a newcomer could be any easier than just having the money go directly into
my bank account.

When a coworker informed me that Venmo payments stay in your account, my
exasperated reply was "wait, it's WORSE than Square Cash? It's like going back
to PayPal?" Well, you can imagine how incredulous I was when I found out that
Venmo _IS_ PayPal, just with different branding.

For the past 5 years I've been assuming Venmo is something new and cool that
"the kids" are using, but I'm too out of touch to bother, and suddenly I find
out it's a rebranding of PayPal with all of the drawbacks of it. It blows my
mind that something caught traction that is functionally worse than the
competitor of the product it's a rebranding of!

~~~
ajkjk
I imagine my feelings about Venmo reflect a lot of peoples':

Basically it was the first way to send money on mobile phones that wasn't
miserable or charged fees so everyone started using it. By the time PayPal
owned it it was already popular.

Everyone wanted to easily send money for at least, like, 10 years before that.
It was the first mainstream option and it still felt really late. (PayPal
already existed but was... disliked. I think because of lots of horror stories
about customer service, and maybe not having a convenient app interface, or
requiring a bank account connection?)

The competitors are all equivalent now (FB, Google, whatever), but I would
never embrace using a FB or Google product exclusively so Venmo feels like a
'neutral third-party option' , at least to an extent, which we can use as the
'default' payments app.

The Bank's versions (Zelle, etc) are way too coupled to banks and too big-
corporation to be excited about.

If there was, say, a startup that did exactly the same thing as Venmo but
wasn't affiliated with a big company (PayPal), I think everyone would happily
use it. If it was, like, a B-corp or non-profit that gives proceeds to
charity, I think everyone would jump ship instantly.

Basically I don't care at all about Venmo's social features, I just want to
send money and prefer not to support a big corporation or give more data to FB
or Google. I bet lots of people are of similar mind.

~~~
Kluny
I still don't get it. My bank's app lets me send money to people via interac
e-transfer. It's kind of a pain in the ass to add a new payee each time, but
the payee doesn't need to have any app themselves. It works through email and
the bank's website. It's free too. What does venmo have that isn't covered by
that?

~~~
megy
> I still don't get it. My bank's app lets me send money to people via interac
> e-transfer.

You don't get it that most banks do not do that? I am unsure why you are
confused about that?

~~~
Kluny
Every bank in Canada does it, even the tiny credit unions. It's common
throughout Europe. I don't know about Australia, but they probably have it
too. I don't know, just another example of Americans being backwards and
thinking everyone else has the same problems. I seriously can't believe it's
2018 and this isn't mandatory for every bank yet.

~~~
rdm_blackhole
Australia just got PayId this year which means you can send any amount of
money to anybody who signs up via their banks and receive money in seconds.

Until last year you had to wait up to 3 days to do an interbank transfer but
not anymore. (same bank transfer would usually clear within the day)

I have used it quite a bit since it was released and I have to say that it
does the job. The only downside is that it is tied to your phone number and I
am not really sure what the process is if you want to change it.

------
kinsomo
It boggles my mind that anyone would want to stream their payment history
publicly.

~~~
justboxing
Apparently people -- even the so called "Smart ones" at Harvard -- just submit
their private, personal info.

> Zuck: Yeah so if you ever need info about anyone at Harvard

> Zuck: Just ask.

> Zuck: I have over 4,000 emails, pictures, addresses, SNS

> [Redacted Friend's Name]: What? How'd you manage that one?

> Zuck: People just submitted it.

> Zuck: I don't know why.

> Zuck: They "trust me"

> Zuck: Dumb fucks.

Source: Mark Zuckerberg Called People Who Handed Over Their Data "Dumb F_cks"
=> [https://www.esquire.com/uk/latest-news/a19490586/mark-
zucker...](https://www.esquire.com/uk/latest-news/a19490586/mark-zuckerberg-
called-people-who-handed-over-their-data-dumb-f/)

~~~
ggg9990
In Facebook’s early days, everything you put on the site was shared with your
friends. So it was not “private, personal, info” but rather the opposite —
information that users wanted to publicize widely. I have never put anything
on Facebook that I care whether Mark Zuckerberg reads or not. It would be
weird and creepy, for sure, if he was looking at pictures of my baby, but I
willingly shared those with over a thousand people so am happy to share with
one more.

~~~
justboxing
> So it was not “private, personal, info” but rather the opposite —
> information that users wanted to publicize widely

SSN is not private, personal info?

I've never met anyone online or offline who wanted to publicize their SSN
widely. Oh wait... that LifeLock dude....
[https://www.wired.com/2010/05/lifelock-identity-
theft/](https://www.wired.com/2010/05/lifelock-identity-theft/)

~~~
yayadarsh
SNS is meant to mean SN's, or "screennames". This (now-outdated) term refers
to messenger accounts (AIM/ICQ) in the pre-Facebook world.

------
a-dub
Every time I encounter venmo whoever has it usually apologizes for it and
explains that you can turn the weird social stuff off. If that's the case,
then what's the point? Moreover, it demonstrates that the people who made it
have weird philosophies on things. What other choices have they made that I
don't know of, can't turn off and would disagree with?

Square Cash is great, btw. No bloat, very simple, does what you expect it to.
(I suppose PayPal is looking that way now these days too though)

~~~
X-Istence
IIRC you can in Venmo say that its private and thus turn off the weird social
thing per payment:

[https://imgur.com/She6BGE](https://imgur.com/She6BGE)

You can also change the default, although that seems to be an option I don't
remember having when I first started using the app...

That is located in Settings -> Privacy... although you get a popup saying "You
know you can change this per payment, you sure you want to do this" which to
me feels weird and pushy.

I agree with Square Cash or other services, instead of Venmo since the whole
idea of by default sharing my payments feels weird. Apple Pay works really
well too if you and the recipient are both Apple users.

------
fermienrico
In this thread - "You can do X to make it private."

In my view, that is not addressing the main issue with Venmo. Socializing
financial transactions shouldn't have taken off from back of the napkin stage.
It is simply unbelievable on 2 fronts: 1) Such an app exists and is doing fine
2) People simply do not care about their privacy.

I am utterly speechless.

Who in the right mind opens up Venmo to just browse what kind of transactions
are being made amongst their friends? What kind of social engagement is this?
How did the creators of Venmo pitched this idea to investors? So many
questions.

~~~
iamjaredwalters
Venmo solved the pain points of easily transferring money between
acquaintances regardless of the financial institutions that money may reside
in. Having social interaction in their app is a side affect or the purpose,
not the purpose itself.

------
djrogers
> Some users seem to forget that their transactions are public by default, and
> their payment activity provides an unfiltered paper trail of what’s really
> happening in their lives.

This is it in a nutshell - nobody pays attention to privacy settings, and they
don't think about the consequences of the fact that they can see other people
payments scroll by on their screens.

~~~
dpflan
I agree. I think there may be social pressure (implied, inherent, made-up) or
laziness or unawareness that perpetuates this. You can make _private_ the
default setting. The idea of broadcasting your finances only makes sense for
social messaging/indicating.

------
crazygringo
There are so many comments here from people not understanding why anybody
would ever want their history to be public, or shocked that that's the
default...

Here's the thing: you get to type whatever you want, so you turn everything
into _jokes_. Because it's public, you get to make up things that will
embarrass your friend. Cryptic emoji. It's _fun_. It's just silly. When you
pay back friends at a bar, you can browse their history and make fun of them.

None of the other payment platforms are fun like that!

~~~
pacetherace
Financial transactions are covered by a lot of complex laws and regulations. A
bad joke may end up costing a lot of time and money to clear your name.

It is equivalent to prank calling cops and telling them that a friend sexually
assaulted you.

Usually, stupid financial transactions bite you at the most inopportune times
like when you apply for home mortgages or deal with immigration issues.

~~~
iamjaredwalters
Drawing a comparison between a comment sent to a friend (a communication
between two parties that ostensibly know each other) and prank calling the
cops is a bit far fetched.

~~~
jasonjayr
You are not wrong, but anytime you involve a third party in your transaction,
especially when it comes to money, they take responsibility for that transfer,
and ensuring it complies with all relevant laws.

Cash is still king.

------
slow_donkey
It takes a few clicks to make everything private. Either way, I deleted my
account last week because Venmo is killing their website and forcing
Android/iOS only.

I'm not even sure why Venmo caught on, it is the worst option out of all the
possible payment systems (fb, Google pay, sq cash...) since they don't deposit
cash received into your bank account and rather hold it interest free.

~~~
hunter23
I was one of the early adopters of Venmo. Here's my take on it:

* Venmo launched the first out of all the systems you mentioned

* Venmo was one of the few (maybe only) system that allows you to pay users who are not on their system. Say you need to pay Joe and you were a Venmo user but Joe wasn't. You could still "pay" them on venmo and they would get a text back saying if they signed up they would get the payment. No one else did this well when they launched

* Venmo integrated with facebook so many of the people I needed to pay were already in the system

* Venmo was the first free system to use

* Venmo was the first mobile friendly system to use. It was the first major system where I could split the bill real time at a restaurant

* Venmo paid early adopters to join (I think I received $2 to make my first payment)

It seems like a clear case of first mover advantage. I'm sure the systems you
mentioned are now better, but at the time Venmo had the best UX and now that
everyone I need to pay is on it, why would I switch? The few cents of interest
loss I lose every year isn't worth finding out if everyone I need to pay is on
one of the alternative systems.

~~~
SmellyGeekBoy
PayPal was doing most of this years ago - and keeping your transactions
private...

~~~
dhruvrrp
PayPal didn't have a decent mobile app and it charged for all card
transactions (credit or debit).

If i'm sitting in a restaurant with friends, I'm not going to ask each of them
for their email/paypal IDs so I can charge them when you can already get that
info in venmo.

------
lyricaljoke
What a lot of people miss about the utility of Venmo is that it lowers the
social cost of squaring up minor debts.

Think of the example of a large group of friends often gathers in arbitrary
subsets of the group to go to dinner. If Alice orders salad every time and Bob
orders steak, and we split it down the middle each time, that kind of sucks
for Alice. Some people suggest rotating picking up the entire bill between
outings, but I'm unconvinced that this really ends up working out equitably in
practice.

Or, say Dora has a habit of leaving happy hour after the first round, which
was picked up by Charlie. It's not a huge cost, but...

In a world without instant electronic payment, the meek Alices and Charlies of
the world lose out because there's a social cost to asking somebody to repay a
small debt (paying <$10 by cash is a hassle). By making these frictionless,
I'd argue that Venmo reduces that cost by providing an easy way to equitably
split without levying the inconvenience on the restaurant, as with separate
checks.

------
BookmarkSaver
Guys, people aren't "exposing their finances" on Venmo. People don't use it to
buy stuff, or pay off CC bills, or anything. Nor are the transaction amounts
exposed.

It's used for balancing payments/debts between individuals. I don't consider
"A paid B for brunch yesterday" or "X paid Y for Rent+cable" in any way to be
"exposing finances". It's just another random (albeit unnecessary) social
network, one that takes literally no effort to use or disable.

Shocking, young people don't care if others know that they went out to dinner
with some friends. It's amazing to me that this level of exposure seems "nuts"
to you all and leaves you "speechless". Like, how paranoid and antisocial are
you all? Who cares about this stuff? Or is this all just some crazy slippery-
slope thing going on in your heads?

~~~
Guest9812398
> Shocking, young people don't care if others know that they went out to
> dinner with some friends

But, it seems like they do care. They want others to know they went for dinner
with friends, or settled a bill for brunch. It seems like they're obsessed
with finding ways to extract the most social presence from normal everyday
activities.

~~~
BookmarkSaver
It's enabled by default. It isn't an "obsession", it was something the company
threw in there and that users don't care enough about to disable. I'm sure
usage of it would vanish almost instantly if something like the actual $
amount was published in addition to the message.

------
adjkant
As someone who uses Venmo regularly and with friends who all have accounts
they use regularly, to summarize many of the points below:

1\. No one asked for this. This is Paypal trying to make a payments app social
and people staying for the payments app _despite_ the social feed.

2\. So long as you can change the defaults, no one cares about if the company
has sane default settings etc. Millenials / Gen Z care about privacy and most
of my friends default to private. A company's defaults is not reflective of
the privacy concerns of users because they know they have the better product.

3\. Venmo messages are often jokes and payment amounts aren't shown even when
public/friends

[https://qz.com/359903/the-emoji-of-venmo/](https://qz.com/359903/the-emoji-
of-venmo/)

4\. Square just didn't catch on and Venmo's integration with other apps makes
it locked in (Splitwise and Tab to name two main ones. My friends refer to
Venmo and those two as the payments holy trinity)

5\. This article is crap and no one I know looks at the feed. If you're dumb
enough to cheat and use a public Venmo payment, wow. When I hit it on the
splash page I see payments from a few people, nothing more interesting than
pizza, rent, or utilities. Incredible, I know people have basic functions! The
privacy invasion!

6\. Most people I know transfer to their bank immediately. The intermediary
step is a pain but far less than using any other payment service. I'll get
over not earning my .03% interest at my bank and letting Venmo skim the
interest on their end to keep the service free. Yes customer service is crap
and so is Paypal generally but the reality is that it removes far more pain in
life than it creates.

~~~
inteleng
> 1\. No one asked for this. This is Paypal trying to make a payments app
> social and people staying for the payments app despite the social feed.

PayPal acquired Venmo through their acquisition of Braintree.

~~~
adjkant
I'm aware - is there a contradiction above? I didn't mean to imply this is
new.

------
simonsarris
Cash App (by Square) cares more about your privacy, has more perks, and is IMO
from a much better company than PayPal.

[https://cash.app/](https://cash.app/)

They also are doing a lot _more_. Cash App issues a debit card and allows ATM
withdrawals and direct deposit. In effect, they've become a pop-up bank to the
under-banked.

~~~
jzebedee
Square Cash is every bit as bad as PayPal during their early "paypalsucks"
days, complete with opaque "security" policies and unreachable support.

I have had multiple Cash accounts (one business, a couple personal) which have
been stuck in limbo for more than a year. At some point, a transaction must
have flagged me because Square reverted all of my recent transactions, locked
my funds, and won't process any incoming or outgoing transactions on ANY of my
accounts.

I've contacted support over and over through their tool, and I have gotten
ZERO response. Not even a formulaic "you're off the platform" email. There's
no phone support for Square Cash, so outside of my emails going into a black
hole, there is no way to get a human to review any of it.

I have given up. If the filing fee for a small claims case wasn't higher than
the cash I still had left in there, I would have sued them long ago. They are
every bit as shady and uncommunicative as PayPal and I would never trust them
with my money again.

------
batbomb
I'm going to call out AirBnB on this one too. You end up seeing the activities
of anyone who has ever tagged you as being part of a trip, even if you haven't
signed up for the platform. Worse, you cannot make any part of your AirBnB
history private. I'm also not aware if there's a way to separate business from
personal accounts other than to sign up twice. I suppose eBay was historically
similar, but even with eBay there wasn't this social connectedness aspect that
you couldn't quite escape.

I understand the review aspect.

It's really strange to not have the option of privacy.

------
Paul-ish
Something about this reads like a viral ad for Venmo. It's as if it is trying
to draw you in to the app to see what your friends are doing.

~~~
wxuan
If it is, its a damn good one!

------
coupdejarnac
Add me to the list of people who were horrified to see a social feed when I
signed up for Venmo. Ain't no way I'm ever going to use it. Though I suppose
it would be interesting to see what other people are paying for/getting paid
for. Perhaps I know some drug dealers or "professional girlfriends", etc.

~~~
iamjaredwalters
You may be disappointed. Drug dealers and professional girlfriends are likely
still uninterested in paper trails and paying taxes on income.

~~~
coupdejarnac
You say that as if there aren't thousands of examples out there.

~~~
iamjaredwalters
You have thousands of drug dealers and prostitutes in your feed?!

------
jedberg
In use Venmo to pay my babysitter. By default when you open the app, it shows
the social feed.

It’s true, I learn new things about my friends every time I open the app.
Sometimes some fairly embarrassing things.

Despite the fact that we have a babysitter isn’t private, I still always keep
the transaction private.

------
45h34jh53k4j
Who would use Venmo? When I see people buying drugs (see vicemo.com), I shake
my head at the stupidity of it all.

I have been asked multiple times by people who want to pay me, and I have
flatted refused because of there approach to financial privacy. I try to get
them to stop using it also, for their own privacy. Lucky we have other options
-- I usually get them into cryptocurrency instead. Hey -- its also open by
default, but at least its hard to correlate an address to a person.

~~~
gowld
99% of those "people buying drugs" aren't buying drugs. It reports anything
with "drink", "speed", "grass", or "dope", and obvious jokes.

~~~
45h34jh53k4j
Right, but its just so stupid! People think they are being clever or funny.
Its as clever as going into a police station and admitting your crimes. Cool
joke!

------
duxup
So by default it doesn't say how much you pay or what for... is it supposed to
be kinda weirdly mysterious?

Also it's kinda funny how money is being used to track cheating here. Outside
splitting a bill (we just split it then and there) ... I can't imagine any
transactions were tied directly to my SO as in handing over money... maybe
that is a generational thing.

------
u90g4u8904
People who like the social feature of venmo: Can you explain why you enjoy
monitoring financial transactions between your friends? I'm genuinely
perplexed. Is this just a new norm that's emerging in our culture? In my
circle of friends, this behavior would be, at least, uninteresting, and at
most, intrusive.

~~~
shmerl
Sounds like snooping feature.

------
partycoder
Venmo should accept the rejection of a payment.

Someone can publicly send you a payment with any arbitrary message and there
is NO way for you to avoid it other than to send the money back.

------
jonahhorowitz
Venmo is evil. They have this whole concept of socializing how we spend money.
They're onboarding merchants like they're going to replace credit cards. I
don't want my money in a "Venmo account." I want it in my bank account. I
don't need all my friends knowing who I'm paying back, and for what.

The only time I've used it in the past year is when a guy at a gas station
asked to borrow $20 to fill his tank and he paid me back with Venmo. I was
worried it was a scam, but it worked out okay.

Cash is still king.

------
makecheck
The whole feed just makes no sense. I will _never_ care if person X just paid
person Y, even if I know them and certainly if I don’t.

------
joelrunyon
Is there a simple way to turn off the "feed" function?

------
nailer
Come from a country where people don't use Venmo, and was astounded to read:

> Some users seem to forget that their transactions are public by default

Well that's (expletive). Secure defaults anyone?

~~~
mipmap04
While it is weird, it's worth noting that the transaction information it shows
just shows who paid who and an optional narrative. They don't show actual
dollar amounts. That being said, you can always post privately. Not sure why
people post publicly.

~~~
gowld
It's still insane to make that public by default.

~~~
nailer
Was going to reply but you've basically said it. You could pay an ex-partner
when you're not supposed to be seing them, a liquor store when you're supposed
to be sober, or a sex worker when you're supposed to be ashamed. Not showing
dollar amounts doesn't make this sane.

------
owly
Wow. Why the hell would anyone use Venmo?

~~~
hoffbrau99
It is a cultural/generational thing. Millenials don't think twice about this.
They are shocked that anyone would care. Non-millennials are shocked that
anyone would share their financials publicly. We're all shocked at each
other's behavior.

~~~
X-Istence
Excuse me... but as a millennial, and knowing many other millennials that also
care, we do absolutely care.

There is a long list of people that I know that don't use Venmo because of the
"social" crap. Please don't try to brush this as a "millennials don't care".

~~~
aphextron
>Excuse me... but as a millennial, and knowing many other millennials that
also care, we do absolutely care.

I think by Millenials he really meant to say Gen Z.

"Millenials" has become a catch-all term for "young people" over the past 10
years, but the reality is that we are no longer the youngest generation. Older
folks just haven't caught up to that fact yet. Anyone below age 25 now is a
completely different generation from us. "Getting" Snapchat and Venmo seems to
be the dividing line.

------
azurelogic
This page was immediately taken over by the ad redirects for free iPhones and
crap. Can we get this replaced with a not shady source?

------
wand3r
Tt

------
anothergoogler
Nothing in the article about "cheating spouses."

~~~
craftyguy
> But Venmo users have found it’s also an extremely effective tool for keeping
> tabs on friends, partners and exes, researching crushes, and in some cases,
> uncovering infidelity.

~~~
anothergoogler
That line and the article title are unsubstantiated. The three interviews are
with two young college students and one 28 year-old guy whose ex-BF has a coke
problem. Unless I missed it, there's nothing in the article about a cheating
spouse.

~~~
gowld
It's just HN's daily 2minutes clickbait.

------
draw_down
This feature is completely nuts. _Completely_. I can't believe people want any
of their payment activity showing up in a public feed. Just, no.

~~~
twostorytower
Not defending this, but I think the default setting is "Friends". So it's
semi-public. But people are generically paying friends back for meals. You can
understand why a lot of people wouldn't think of this as a big deal.

------
Lexie

        I tried Ben's services and it worked ... I caught my ex with another guy ?? ... Ben helped me with his hacking services and I discovered all the deleted photos and conversations of my ex... Contact him now on Email: Benmcgregor011@gmail.com. just in case you suspect your spouse ??

------
paulie_a
Venmo is owned by PayPal therefore it is garbage and should be avoided.

~~~
dang
Maybe so, but please don't post unsubstantive comments here.

------
monochromatic
Holy shit, I didn’t realize this is how Venmo works.

I was just thinking last week that I should open an account for sending money
to friends to settle small balances... but now I don’t want anything to do
with the service.

------
turc1656
I am embarrassed (yet again) to admit I am part of the Millennial generation.
My generation has effectively destroyed every aspect of both privacy and human
interaction. It's truly pathetic.

------
Sol-
This article has an interesting (and strange) take on the issue, mostly,
though with some reservations, characterizing the lack of privacy as something
empowering. I liked the anecdotes about people digitally stalking their
partners and friends.

I guess you can make that argument if you believe that some aspects a post-
privacy world is something positive, but it is still strange to read.

