
Target’s gig workers will strike to protest switch to algorithmic pay model - elsewhen
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/v7gzd8/targets-gig-workers-will-strike-to-protest-switch-to-algorithmic-pay-model
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macspoofing
Are there any 'gig'-type jobs that don't rely on the worker having a car?
That's the math that most people don't seem to factor, that once you include
wear-and-tear, gas, and sometimes insurance, you're probably, at best, at
minimum wage. Those clever tech companies providing these 'gig' jobs, seem to
be relying on workers not making these calculations.

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dclusin
I think that there should be regulation requiring a minimum level of
compensation that includes the drivers time and vehicle depreciation as a
result of mileage. Drivers generally lack the sophistication to do financial
modelling for depreciation of their vehicles. Large corporations like target
know this and shamelessly take advantage of it to the benefit of their own
shareholders. Just because someone is willing to let themselves be exploited
doesn't make it okay. It's pretty despicable IMO.

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lotsofpulp
I think drivers know wear and tear and fuel and insurance costs $0.50+ per
mile.

They just don’t have an option for better pay:quality of life at work ratio.
Which generally applies to the work of 95% of the people in the world, they
simply don’t have a better option.

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ghaff
A lot of people seem to equate people without great financial options with
"stupid." I'm sure a lot of gig economy workers are pretty aware they're
borrowing from their future selves or at least they're choosing just not to
think about it.

I'm sure _some_ don't understand the real costs. But most are doing what they
think they need to do in the here and now and, to be honest, if people are
really trying to minimize car costs, they're probably at least a bit less than
IRS allowances.

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jjeaff
Many if not most just see Uber driving as a stop gap. So they are basically
just trading equity in the vehicle they already have for money to get by right
now and they know it.

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irl_zebra
“ For years, Shipt has used a clear commissioned-based pay model that ($5 plus
a 7.5 percent commission on all orders),...”

Outside the context of algorithmic pay models, I’ve always had a lingering
doubt in the context of the restaurant industry. I typically tip 20% across
the board, more for great service. If I order a $120 bottle of wine versus a
$20 bottle of wine, the wait staff is getting an extra $20, but what did they
do to get this extra $20? Everything else is the same. (Putting aside the
situations where you order a very nice multi-thousand dollar bottle and a
special person with wine knowledge comes out and handles everything, etc.)

Analogizing now to Shipts situation, should one person get paid more because I
got the fancy cheese rather than the store brand? They’re next to one another
and everything else remains the same. I’m not surprised pay drops
substantially when algorithmic pay only considers effort.

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lallysingh
For the wine situation, I think your standards for service would be higher at
places you pay $120 for a bottle than $20.

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akiselev
Maybe for a $1200 bottle, but not a $120 bottle. Even my local BBQ spot has a
$200 bottle and there it's self service except for drink and food orders. I'd
say most of my frequent spots ($20-30 for most expensive entree) have at least
one bottle in the three figure price range.

However, tipping 20% on a $120 bottle would be more than half of what I tipped
the last time I went to a fancy place where the staff folded the napkins every
time someone got up to go to the bathroom. That was a 40% tip on a $100 meal
for two (with corkage fee) where I felt the service was excellent and included
far more than just pouring a few glasses.

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lallysingh
Those sound like exceptions more than general trends. The tip algorithm makes
more sense for the general trend, and less so for the exceptions. That's a
reasonable situation.

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supernova87a
I think this is the real problem with "AI" and implemented algorithms. It's
not that they're biased or whatever, or that they'll target certain people,
etc. That's a small % problem. We have the ability to fight that and fix it.
And I'm sure we will, because it doesn't really cost us dearly to make things
more equitable.

No, it's that these algorithms will squeeze every living cent of inefficiency
out of a system and pit person against person on who's more willing to work
just a little harder for a little less. To take the momentary breaks out of
your day, make sure you're working every second. Because those things mean
real cash to some person watching the dollars flow in. Turning up the person-
utilization % factor or job bid price -- who's going to police against that?
Go and celebrate the equality of working to the bone for an unspecified wage.

It's interesting how society goes in waves of dog-eat-dog, every-man-for-
himself, until you reach some period of relative prosperity, rest, relaxation,
and then something happens to turn the clock back (or forward) some more.

In the meantime, let those profits flow in!

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thoraway1010
Wow - this is big news IF TRUE.

Shipt has something like 100k shoppers, the fact that they are going on strike
is HUGE - it's so hard to organize a group of 100,000.

One thing that I think is better about shipt vs uber etc. YOU get to pick
which orders to take I think. Rush hour traffic across down for a $10 order?
Forget it.

Here's an account from a shipt shopper:

"After 4 orders (remember, this is about 4 to five hours of work), I have made
a total of $110.55. If you do the math, that’s averaging out to be $27.63 per
order. Now, you also have to take into consideration gas and wear and tear on
your car, but I think I may have driven a total of 50 miles between these four
orders. And if you don’t want to deliver to a place far away, you don’t have
to. You get to pick which orders you want to accept."

Has Shipt announced any fallback planes when their 100K shoppers walk? Will be
interesting to see how they handle this - it may be the largest strike by any
workgroup in a long time!

My only worry is sometimes the headlines turn out to be basically total lies.
Hopefully that is not the case here. ie, they write a headline saying shipt
shoppers are striking, but it turns out to be actually 0.5% of shipt shoppers.

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HaloZero
I highly highly doubt that all 100,000 workers are striking. The article
mentions that workers will strike and that it's being organized by Gig Workers
Collective but I haven't ever found anyone indicating how many people actually
participated in these strikes (Instacart workers recently did one)

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thoraway1010
It's says target gig workers will strike - no qualification or limitation
whatsoever.

When fords union employees went on strike, they virtually all were on strike
as well.

Is the headline really 99.5% of target gig workers do not go on strike? 0.5%
go on strike? That's a BIG difference then everyone walking. They should at
least do a follow-up with how many people quit or struck (50,000 or whatever).

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syntheticcorp
I’ve always found it strange that some delivery apps use the value of the
order as part of the drivers compensation or delivery fee. It looks like this
is one of the changes Shipt are making, which probably would lower driver pay
for more expensive items.

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coding123
Someone should make an app that lets you put in you select which gig job you
are doing, enter fields that are specific to that job, and then have it spit
out your hourly wage minus costs (gas, car repair, etc..) and also a minimum
order/distance of the types of job you're willing to take to reach a certain
level of price/hour.

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Tinyyy
I guess the algorithm will just increase the pay for workers not on strike
then, due to the decreased supply.

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smabie
Which is why strikes like this rarely work: it's a prisoners dilemma. The
reason why they work for say, factory workers is that those unions are much
stronger, and there's a lot of social (and sometimes physical) pressure not to
cross the picket line. Hell, I'm sure there are a lot of workers who are
trying to convince people to strike, but won't themselves. And after all,
doing otherwise would be irrational.

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Ericson2314
Yes it is definitely harder to organize a distributed workforce, but your
mathematical modelling is extremely simplistic.

> And after all, doing otherwise would be irrational.

...Please...

\- Psycological harm results from trying to recruit strikers when you are a
secret scab. Unless you're a psycopath

\- You could organize a protest on the day you are striking to confirm each
others loyalty

\- You might already know other people who work for the app even if you don't
work with them (e.g. if you learned of the gig work through word-of-month).
Those people you already have social connections with.

Saying it's hard is valid. Saying it's impossible without real evidence reeks
of the stereotype of the freshman straight out of econ 101 who thinks they now
understand all human behavior.

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smabie
I don't remember anyone saying it was impossible. All I said was that it was
irrational. But people do irrational things pretty consistently, so
irrationality isn't going to stop (some) people.

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ebg13
Can someone with perspective on this explain to me how a percent commission
model makes any kind of sense vs evaluating actual labor effort for a courier
service with fewer guarantees? Delivering 100 pounds of potatoes is _way_ more
difficult than delivering a tiny diamond ring.

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swimfar
Probably just because it's much much simpler. How do you objectively compare
the delivery difficulty of 100 lbs of potatoes vs a diamond ring? Should the
delivery cost of 100 lbs of diamond rings be the same as 100 lbs of potatoes?
What about 100, 1-lb boxes vs 1, 100 lb box? Size also makes a difference. You
could charge per item, based on weight, like postal shipments. But then you
also need to have accurate weights and dimensions. And transporting two boxes
to the same address isn't twice as difficult as shipping one box. These aren't
insurmountable problems, but as long as most people aren't complaining,
there's little pressure to change.

edit: changed shipping to delivery, to avoid confusion.

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ebg13
> _You could charge per item, based on weight, like postal shipments._

I would say not exactly based on weight, but similar to that: total
dimensions&weight converted to dollars + miles converted to dollars + hours
converted to dollars.

> _What about 100, 1-lb boxes vs 1, 100 lb box?_

Nit: Very few services will allow you to send a 100 lb box. Anything over like
40 lbs is a hazard per OSHA and requires special treatment.

Anyway, besides that, delivering lots of small boxes isn't harder than
delivering one giant box if the fulfillment side is doing its job.

> _But then you also need to have accurate weights and dimensions._

Everything you buy from Target already has these.

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batmaniam
How does this scale with increased inflation or demand? I'm betting it
doesn't; it just feels like another way to keep wages down if the company
refuses to update their pay 'algorithm' against the current labor market.

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hartator
So much experimentation. After a couple of weeks trying the loot checkout
system now this.

