
North Korea defied world with nuclear test. Now it seeks aid for flood disaster - endswapper
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/north-korea-defied-world-with-nuclear-test-now-it-seeks-aid-for-flood-disaster/2016/09/12/3e710483-476f-4f04-aae4-52af58064e91_story.html?tid=pm_pop_b
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lisper
The fundamental problem with NK is that it successfully sustains the fiction
that the U.S. is going to attack "real soon now". That widespread (in NK)
belief combined with nukes is a very dangerous combination. We can't do much
about the nukes, but this humanitarian crisis provides an opportunity to move
the needle on the Dangerous Fiction: make a public offer to provide
humanitarian aid in exchange for a public acknowledgement that the aid is
coming from the U.S. This acknowledgement would have to be broadcast on NK
television so we can know that the NK people will see it.

Yes, it is unlikely that KJU would accept this. The goal here is not to
actually extract the concession, but rather to sow seeds of doubt in the
Dangerous Fiction in the minds of the NK elites by setting up a situation
where the only reason that people are starving is KJU's refusal to acknowledge
a simple truth: the U.S. is providing food.

~~~
redstripe
The US has sustained the fiction that terrorists are going to attack "real
soon now" and people still accept it like some existential threat. Meanwhile
we're onto the 15th year of toddlers killing parents with their own handguns
outnumbering terrorists attacks. So I guess we can't really be surprised by
their fears - it's the whole world against them and it sort of makes sense for
them to dig in deeper.

~~~
hxegon
Isn't it a little insensitive to say that imply terrorist attacks on US soil
are fiction when when 49 people got killed in an attack in June? I'll agree
that public fear, and public official rhetoric is out of proportion to say,
car accidents, but it's an apples to oranges comparison.

~~~
dredmorbius
There's reality and there's sensitivity.

Sensitivity would be an awareness of the tragedy the Florida nightclub attacks
were to the vicitms, their families, and friends.

Reality would be recognising that that event in no way, shape, or form
presented the least existential threat to the US itself, and that the ties of
the madman involved to organised international terrorist groups are tenuous at
best. And that armed toddlers and children present a far larger clear and
present danger to the United States.

------
John23832
Sadly, I think the best thing to do is to say no.

North Korea makes decisions that constantly harms it's people. Conducting
nuclear test after nuclear test, for what? To say you have one? To have
another toy to saber rattle with? All while preaching that it exists in a
sheltered paradise. All while its people starve.

Giving them aid even though they defy what pretty much everyone in the world
asks them to do (even China is getting towards their wits end), only allows
them to defy even more. To abuse their people even more. Not aiding them at
least gives their people a chance to see what is really going on. Sadly that
means some people may starve, and I'd hate to see that happen, but honestly,
what else do you do?

~~~
pattisapu
Speaking as an American -- to say no arguably puts us on a moral footing like
North Korea's -- playing political hardball at the expense of innocent people.

~~~
John23832
I agree. It's a shitty situation either way. But really, to give them even
MORE food that we already do, would be enabling abusers. They get fed if they
play ball. (Problems with the continent aside) Look at how much we break our
backs to feed Africa. We do it because it's the right thing to do.

At a certain point though, the politicians have to be held responsible to the
people. And people are never more hungry for change, than when they are hungry
for food.

~~~
linkregister
I'm pretty sure the U.S. doesn't provide food aid to African nations anymore;
when it was occurring it was considered a subsidy to U.S. farmers at the
expense of dumping food on local markets and destroying local agriculture.

U.S. foreign aid to developing nations is now delivered in the form of grants
to local NGOs to help improve local farming practices, infrastructure (water
wells mostly), and also military aid (aid earmarked to buying U.S.-made
weaponry). As a percentage of federal spending, foreign aid amounts to less
than one percent, dominated by aid to Israel and Egypt. West, Central, and
Eastern African aid is not a significantly high percentage of U.S. federal
spending.

I agree with your point about enabling abusers, I just thought I should let
you know that U.S. foreign aid is more sophisticated than simply dumping food
on local markets.

~~~
John23832
I didn't mean to say we just dump food in Africa. I meant that we make a
concerted effort to direct food there.

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endswapper
The headline and the conversation it provokes are part of the problem.

The point should be that humanitarian efforts exist for the sole benefit of
humanity.

Once a humanitarian effort becomes leverage for a political, or military, or
any other objective it ceases to be a humanitarian effort.

I don't think we should be concerned with the regime until it proves it is a
responsible actor domestically and in the global community.

Demonstrating our humanity is the only way to constructively engage the people
of North Korea. It's much more powerful to face the hate and vitriol in the
propaganda of North Korean with something as seemingly irrational as
humanitarian aid. What I mean is that the State's propaganda loses it's power,
it loses the idea that is reasonable when we continue to help them despite
nuclear threats, et al. Only then can the people of North Korea find their
power and choose a path. I imagine, at some point, they will reach a tipping
point like Egypt. Buying in to their provocations is simply taking the bait
and allowing them to continue with business as usual.

~~~
CWuestefeld
_Once a humanitarian effort becomes leverage_

But that was true from the start. I appears that NK makes humanitarian efforts
a political issue, but basing resource allocations on the assumption that the
rest of the world will bail them out.

Thus, our aid to them is effectively allowing them to invest greater resources
into weapons programs.

------
joshmn
There are so many jokes to be made about this country. I'm guilty as making
them and finding them humorous. But there are people who live in this country,
who can't escape, who are struck by fear, who are brainwashed, who know
nothing of the outside world.

~~~
acbabis
That's getting less and less common. Apparently its really easy for North
Koreans to get smuggled media from other countries, and a lot of the guards
look the other way or take bribes. Most North Koreans probably realize how bad
their situation is but don't say anything because they don't want to go to a
labor camp.

~~~
repler
Yeah! In Cuba there's a whole network of USB thumb drives with new content
each week. It's pretty awesome.

Of course, you still need a computer. Is this sort of thing going on in NK as
well?

~~~
froindt
Yes it is, but with some other challenges.

Redstar OS is a linux distribution which is distributed by the North Korean
government. It has a system built in pretty deep which watermarks files.
[https://youtu.be/KTBemKiSgWI?t=1737](https://youtu.be/KTBemKiSgWI?t=1737)

If the government gets a copy of the file from someone, they can to some
degree trace back where else the file has been.

------
jknoepfler
I don't think I'm better than any citizen of North Korea, and I have enormous
sympathy for the people of South Korea who are prospering while their friends
and relatives (such as they still have) may be suffering. That said, the North
is a home for one of the deadliest ideological diseases the world has ever
known. Democide by totalitarian governments with a "communist" flavor killed
more people in the 20th century than every war combined. We should not send
aid to the people of North Korea until North Korea changes internally. We
should leave the door open to trade, to peace, to free exchange of ideas, and
to offer support for democratization. We should make every effort to
destabilize the current regime in North Korea (which is still in a state of
war with us, lest we forget). Giving aid just helps stabilize the status quo,
which is not an acceptable outcome.

~~~
endswapper
Humanitarian aid is destabilizing when the status quo is defined by the
State's propaganda of hate.

At some point, and that may not be now, it begs the question: why should we
hate those that are helping?

To not help, to ignore their need, is the surest way to maintain the status
quo. That would preserve the framework and justifications for the State's
propaganda.

------
cprayingmantis
Why can't we treat this like a hostage situation? Tell NK we will provide X
amount of aid if they will release Y number of citizens of their choosing.
That way we lighten suffering on the country as a whole but also end suffering
for some of its citizens.

~~~
tsomctl
And where do they go? One of the reasons why China supports North Korea is
because they don't want a bunch of refugees coming in.

~~~
cprayingmantis
That's the beauty of tying it to aid. You'll have a slow trickle instead of a
huge flood. I'm sure the nations that are involved would figure something out
on accepting 5k refugees at a time.

~~~
foota
Right, just like how accepting the world has been of Syrian refugees?

~~~
hx87
I'm pretty sure if there was a South Syria, whose population considers
themselves to be Syrians and Syrians to be exceptional in the world, with a
stable government, a thriving economy, and a security guarantee from the US,
they'd have zero problems taking 5K Syrian refugees.

------
brudgers
Nuclear testing and flood relief are orthogonal issues. Particularly under a
regime with limited consent from the governed.

------
jedberg
This is like when teachers are getting screwed and can't go on strike. In the
teacher's case, if they go on strike it hurts the students the most, wheres
the administration just has to deal with a small backlash.

In this case if we deny them help, we hurt the people of the DPRK, not really
the administration.

So the global community are the teachers, who want to help the people of the
DPRK, are angry at the administration, and can't do anything but keep helping.

------
mmanfrin
These are linked; every time NK wants something, it starts rattling its sabres
so that when talks over _aid_ happen, they can leverage more.

------
frr149
Why not just form an international coalition, invade and free, once and for
all, the Korean people from that horror? It's gotta be the most justified
military intervention in History.

Yes, besides a funny hairdo, the crazy in chief has a few nuclear fire
crackers. Just destroy those installations before sending the troops.

~~~
hx87
It's a worthy task, and the key to doing so is getting China on board. On one
hand, NK is probably the most exasperating "ally" China has, but on the other
hand, China really doesn't want the combination of refugees and US bases on
its borders in the event the government collapses. So perhaps a deal where
North Korea becomes a Chinese SAR for a period of 25-50 years (since China is
much better prepared to absorb the cost than South Korea)?

------
Fej
Aiding DPRK would be a dangerous move. Either their populace starves or their
weapons program loses money. If the population starves, there's a huge higher
chance of revolution. As terrible as it is, it's a win-win for the
international community, and even North Korea as well, in the long term.

~~~
omginternets
I dunno. I see your point and if it were nearly any other nation, I'd even
agree, but there's something special about the DPRK. I frankly don't see them
_ever_ revolting. It's perhaps the only country that's so successfully
isolated it's population and -- as much as I dislike the term -- brainwashed
them.

I'm beginning to think they'd sooner starve than revolt. After all, they've
already been through this so many times...

------
Just_A_NBR
Generosity is the highest form of giving. The people in North Korea are in
need. Providing the basics of food can empower and help many, and provide us
with an opportunity for that kindness to be freely recognized, either directly
or indirectly. If we needed something from them, the kindest thing they could
do is give without expecting something in return. If they are our enemy, we
will not win the day treating them as such when given the opportunity to be a
friend.

------
slim
"defied the world"

Who are they talking about? I don't feel defied.

Mostly my feeling about North Korea is that they need help

------
gwbas1c
There's probably plenty of ways to use this as an opportunity to weaken the
regime. Perhaps even just meeting outsiders will help shatter the propaganda
bubble?

------
partycoder
I think it is important to make a distinction between the regime and the
people. In this perspective, it is wrong to start mocking their country.

------
hxegon
I'm a little disappointed in the US. We have the best case you could make for
an ethical forced regime change by a foreign power, (can you consent to be
governed when you are brainwashed and not consenting is punishable by
imprisonment?) and we aren't on this? I'd love to get some alternate reality
tv a la rick and morty to watch america world police kim jong un's face.

~~~
woah
Look at how successful we've been at regime change in the last 15 years! Do
you really want a war with Russia and China?

~~~
hxegon
I think Russia and China would be happy to (eventually) have a potential new
economically productive neighbor country, but I don't know that much about
politics so...

Either way though, the situation is already terrible. I don't think it could
get much worse (assuming we could disable their nuclear capabilities before
any kind of major military action). I'm not saying it's pretty, but it just
doesn't look like we are making much progress through usual diplomatic
channels.

------
justin66
North Korea's population is already starving.

------
ldehaan
I'm pretty cold, but that's ice cold.

What they should do is say, we'll give you aid if you let us build a military
base in Pyongyang and then litter the whole country with flyers announcing the
potential aide but on those conditions, and let it go from there.

~~~
Retr0spectrum
Their response would most likely be "no thanks". Would that make it any better
than not offering to help at all?

