
If Singapore is the most expensive city, then why Redmond costs more? - adib
http://cutecoder.org/career/living-cost-redmond-washington/?utm_campaign=HackerNews_140315&utm_source=HackerNews&utm_medium=SasmitoAdibowo&utm_content=SingaporeExpensive
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kevin_p
To answer the question in the title, you should look at the purpose of the
study. The study naming Singapore as the most expensive city come from the
Economist Intelligence Unit's Worldwide Cost of Living Index, which is
supposed to "help human resources and finance managers calculate cost-of-
living allowances and build compensation packages for expatriates and business
travellers" and is "based on the assumption that an expatriate has a right to
live at the assignment site in the same manner and with the same kind of goods
and services he would find at home" (source:
[https://www.eiu.com/public/topical_report.aspx?campaignid=Wc...](https://www.eiu.com/public/topical_report.aspx?campaignid=Wcol2014),
[http://www.worldwidecostofliving.com/asp/wcol_HelpWhatIsWCOL...](http://www.worldwidecostofliving.com/asp/wcol_HelpWhatIsWCOL.asp)).

In other words, it's comparing the price of living a Western executive
lifestyle, not the cost of living for a regular person. Transport costs are
high because Singapore has very high taxes on cars (more expensive than the
cost of the car itself) - the target audience isn't going to be using a bus
pass. Food costs are based on prices at high-end Western restaurants, not $5
worth of groceries. The housing comparison definitely isn't based on a studio
apartment. And so on and so forth.

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frankchn
The calculation the Economist Intelligence Unit uses is very different from
the one presented in this blog post. For instance, the price of a car is not
factored into the blog post as the author assumes a "student lifestyle."

For instance, in Singapore, a new Toyota Camry costs almost US$150,000 while
the same car in Seattle costs at most $30,000. The difference is worth the
downpayment to an apartment in Seattle. A public transport pass in Singapore
(EZLink Season Pass) is $134, which is more expensive than Seattle anyway.

~~~
chad_oliver
> in Singapore, a new Toyota Camry costs almost US$150,000

Wait, what? Surely that's a typo! If not, what makes it so expensive?

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sdepablos
Among other things the government wants to discourage the use of private cars:
Singapore is too crowded a city for everyone to have a car, you reduce noise
and pollution levels, the petroleum dependence of the country...

~~~
mdda
To emphasize the point : In Singapore, the MRT (subway) and bus systems are
excellent & frequent (and you can get exact ETA info via your phone). Taxis
are everywhere and cheap. There's even less reason to own a car in Singapore
than in NYC.

~~~
ewang1
Except that more and more wealthy people are moving to Singapore and so
there's no shortage of people buying up Mercedes and Lamborghinis...

~~~
mdda
I understand that wealthy people may be conspicuously buying Mercedes and
Lamborghinis : But that doesn't change the facts about the MRT, busses and
Taxis...

Agreed, it doesn't boost the morale of the general population to see, but it
also really doesn't make living in Singapore significantly worse (particularly
since the absolute numbers are pretty small, even if it's a popular/populist
talking point).

~~~
sdepablos
Exactly. Seeing a Ferrari does not boost their morale, but it also does not
boost mine and I own a car.

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Al-Khwarizmi
I lived in Singapore for a while last year.

Lodging and housing is indeed very expensive, I was living in a shared
apartment in a university dorm and I had to pay like 1K € per month. Certainly
very expensive, although not _that_ far from what I've seen in other expensive
places like some parts of Sweden or the UK.

On the other hand, food is ridiculously cheap. You can go to hawker stalls and
eat a fine meal for less than 3 €. In most European countries you can't have a
decent meal for less than 8 €. Damn, here in Spain I don't think I can even
match the price of Singaporean hawker stalls if I buy groceries and cook
myself, unless if I only eat fried eggs or pasta with tomato, and in Singapore
I was eating like a king.

Transportation is outrageously expensive if you need a car, but it's rather
cheap if you use public transport, which has a great coverage and is really
good. I don't really see much of a reason to use a car in Singapore, except if
you are a car-aholic. Even if you need to go somewhere out of reach of the
subway and bus network, taxis are cheap too.

To sum up, I would say that the relatively cheap food and transportation
compensate for the very expensive accomodation, and the overall result is that
Singapore is rather expensive, but there definitely are more expensive places
(at the very least in the north of Europe). I'm surprised that people are
saying it's the most expensive city.

~~~
sheepmullet
Three words: Work life balance

The average Singaporean is working an extra 15-20 hours each week than the
average European in an expensive city for about the same amount of money and a
similar cost of living. That 15-20 hours makes a huge impact on overall
quality of life

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com2kid
These prices are likely a dramatic underestimate.

1 bedroom Apartments start at ~1400 a month. You can of course go cheaper if
you rent a larger house with room mates (which in fact many people do). Food
prices are outrageous, expect to pay at least $10 per person per meal if you
go out to eat, $15 is more common.

But this page also doesn't mention any of the quality of life benefits of
living in Redmond.

For one thing, crime is almost non-existent. Police vehicles regularly patrol
the area 24/7\. There is no noise, no one partying outside, no cars driving
around blasting music, none of that.

And the city is maintained in an almost pristine state. The roads are damn
near perfect. Pot holes are fixed within a week, if not days. City services
are all around amazing, heck even the police are polite and a delight to deal
with.

The commute to work is excellent. From out my door to into the work parking
lot is about 5 minutes.

Direct access to Seattle, 15 minutes to downtown Seattle during non-rush
hours.

And finally, the math in this Article is so bonkers, it seems like it'd apply
to almost any major city. Rent in a "won't be stabbed" part of Seattle is
higher than it is in Redmond. Rent in NYC or SF for a comparable quality of
life is going to be much higher! (Can you even rent a place in SF proper that
in in a neighborhood with virtually no crime?)

Perhaps my main complaint about living here is the scarcity of restaurants
that deliver!

~~~
eruditely
Apparently residential areas that mean, "won't be stabbed" equals, 1400 a
month && 15 dollars per meal.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
How is $15 per meal outrages? Never been to Swiss or Denmark or London before?
The problem with Redmond is it's quite suburban and boring. Better to live
with the chance of getting stabbed, but Seattle is quite safe for something a
bit more grimy.

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tdicola
Interesting analysis, but just to set expectations there is no way you will be
taken seriously if you ask for $199k/year as a fresh from college new hire at
a large software company in Seattle. $200k+/year in Seattle is well into very
senior/principle/partner engineer territory.

~~~
judk
Please stop perpetuating this myth.

Post-economic-crash, equity packages have added quite a lot to salary.

$200k total money comp (incl 402k, bonus, equity) is well in range for a
career/intermediate software engineer.

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chrismcb
I've read this article a half dozen times, there is no mention of Singapore in
it, let alone how much it costs to live there. So I guess I'm supposed to just
take this made up headline at its word?

Also keep in mind, the author wants to SAVE $120K a year

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brwnll
I must be overlooking something. He mentions several times this is to
"maintain your current savings rate". Is $9,400 per month a normal savings
rate in Singapore? Perticulary for a student?? Everyone a millionaire in 10
years?

Secondly, just want to correct a few points for anyone who indeed is looking
to move to Washington (and you should, it's lovely here and we'd love to have
you).

Redmond is not the most expensive place to live, in fact, as long as you move
a small distance away from any MS campus, it is a good value.

We have the Puget Sound and a few large lakes in the greater Seattle area. As
a general rule, prices increase rapidly as distance to water decreases (most
expensive: Bellevue, Kirkland, Downtown Seattle). If you like urban living,
try west Seattle, for suburban, Issaquah.

Lastly, $5 a meal will get you nowhere. Period.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
West Seattle isn't that cheap given that it's surrounded by water. I love it
though, but commutes to ms would be hard. Lake City and surrounding in the
north is going to cheaper, or even kenmore/Bothell (or Lynwood for the
desperate). As for south, Renton has some affordable places...

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elandybarr
As someone who posted adverts for $10/hr coding gigs around Redmond and got
decent applicants, LOL @ $200,000 figure.

However your other expenses are near the mark for a 'student' lifestyle, but a
little on the low side...

Congrats to you if you currently save at that rate.

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stefan_kendall3
$5/meal? I spend more like $12-20 when I cook for myself, and $20-30 if I eat
lunch out.

And I live in a cheaper city than Redmond.

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thaumasiotes
On a completely unrelated note, I've felt for some time that students of
english should be taught to say "how come" instead of "why"; it doesn't
trigger the auxiliary inversion that "why" requires. Go ahead and note that
it's informal, but it would do a lot of good.

~~~
FireBeyond
“How come” is antiquated. I understand what you’re saying and actually agree.
I think a better way to do so would be “How is it”, as in “How is it that you
think you will be able to ask for $200K as a graduate programmer in a very IT
heavy city?"

~~~
thaumasiotes
Where do you live? I use "how come" frequently. To me it's a formality / feel
thing.

~~~
FireBeyond
Born in Scotland, lived most of my life in Australia, now in Washington State.

I hear it all over the place, but it's also less correct than how is... but
you're right, definitely more common.

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jsemrau
A a "Singaporean" founder I would ask: Does Redmond have: Gardens by the Bay,
Clarke Quay, Sentosa, Universal Studios, Casinos, Top Universities, huge Asian
Financing Hub, vibrant and multi-cultural environment, safety, affordable
health-care all within a 45 km radius?

~~~
quanticle
Redmond allows me to write about whatever I want, whenever I want. It also
allows me to chew gum. And, as of this year, I can partake in marijuana use,
something that in Singapore would earn me the death penalty.

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gexla
Damn, how does anyone live in these places? What supports this? Quantitative
Easing? ;)

Isn't minimum wage in Washington under $8 / hour? What do they eat?

Philippines...

Rent: You can get a decent house or apartment for $150 / month.

Food: I can eat a street meal here for around 50 cents. For something fancy, I
can eat out for $1.50. McDonald's is an expensive meal at $3.50 for 1/4
Pounder w/ cheese meal. A nice restaurant might charge $6. To get more
expensive than that you have to eat at a European owned place which imports
food I have never heard of with names I can't pronounce.

Electric: ~ $35 / month.

Water: ~ $15 / month.

Internet: ~ $25 / month.

I have lived here long enough that I have become completely out of touch with
the prices in places like the U.S. and Europe. Singapore is right in my
backyard though.

~~~
cadalac
What about wages and quality of life there? Seems like an interesting place to
be...

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Aqwis
Realistically, because the lists of the world's "most expensive cities"
usually only include cities with populations over a million, with exceptions
for capitals and smaller international jetset/business/gov't towns like Geneva
or SF.

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ulfw
I find it funny how people calculate ridiculously low rent prices and an
impossible $5/meal (isn't even unhealthy fast food slightly higher than
that?), yet magically come to the conclusion that at least $200,000 are
necessary.

~~~
FireBeyond
Well, bear in mind his goal, realistic or otherwise, is to save $10,000 a
month after all expenses. That contributes a huge deal to his $200K demand.
But sorry, walk into MSFT out of college and ask for $200K as a developer your
first year and you're not going to get it, despite what someone upstream
claims (source: myself, an ex-MSFT Group Program Manager - a few levels above.
This is fairly accurate: [http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Microsoft-Group-
Program-Mana...](http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Microsoft-Group-Program-
Manager-Salaries-E1651_D_KO10,31.htm))

~~~
ulfw
Totally agreed. It's also a bit odd to want to save 10,000 a month after tax
on a normal salary in general. The ratio between living expenses and savings
is somewhat off. I can also come up with wonderful ideas like 'oh I want to be
able to earn enough to save 200,000,000 a month and only spend 2000/month - so
I need to earn at least 4 Billion Dollars a year. Good'

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finalight
i'm a singaporean here

most expensive city? not sure too expensive to live? definitely

you ever heard of certificate of ownership? it's a cert that requires you to
own a car. a mazda biante here cost around $150k SGD, not sure about other
countries though.

furthermore, there's a lot of taxes we need to pay and we don't even know
where these tax goes to! it doesn't really even help the poor as far as i can
see. Furthermore, ministers' salaries are in millions per annum and there are
so many ministers and you defiinitely need to pull strings to get that job

still have a lot of more to complain, but then i'm too tired to keep typing so
much

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czr80
Here, let me help you: [http://youtube.com/watch?v=3S0mEJ-
aajM](http://youtube.com/watch?v=3S0mEJ-aajM)

~~~
victorhooi
That is pure awesomeness =).

My parents are from Singapore, and I've been back enough that I at least got
some of those jokes...haha.

Very cool.

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eCa
Not sure how much more expensive Redmond is compared to Seattle, but Numbeo
[1] would also be a good start when comparing locations. (Numbeo has no
numbers for Redmond.)

[1] [http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/compare_cities.jsp?coun...](http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Singapore&country2=United+States&city1=Singapore&city2=Seattle%2C+WA)

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redindian75
is that in Singapore Dollars? (comes to USD160K) still waay too much money for
a fresher. You also want to save 9k per month? hmm... looks like you have put
in a lot of time on analysis/charts, so when you surveyed for rental prices -
didnt you bother asking your friends if it these figures were even realistic?

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orky56
Very detailed work but you shouldn't be using cost as your primary basis. It's
more important to look at average salaries for your position and see how it
varies by city & state. That will give you an accurate depiction of how the
industry views relative cost of living.

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cincinnatus
Very literal naïveté.

