

My Response to the Accusation that Nerds are Misogynistic - justanotherlame
http://pastebin.com/QXsFTNvE

======
mercer
(Holy shit! My apologies for the length and, at times, the tone. Take it with
a grain of salt if you want to. All this just resonated with me and it comes
from a desire to help, not criticize!)

> You don't know what it's like to be in my shoes. To be extremely lonely with
> no friends. To have nothing but your intelligence to keep you company. To
> change your patterns of living, the places you eat, and the paths you walk,
> just to avoid certain social situations. To stay confined to one place for a
> while because to get to where you want to be, you have to pass through an
> anxiety-zone to get there.

I know what's it like to be in your shoes. You're describing me, or at least
who I have been for a long time, to a tee! I can elaborate, but suffice it to
say it's pretty much as you describe. It even made me consider suicide for a
while.

But more importantly, _tons_ of people know what it's like (especially in this
corner of the world).

It's just that 1) we're not very visible in popular culture on account of it
not being that interesting to watch an episode of a guy sit at a computer by
himself, and 2) lonely people, by definition, don't meet lonely people.

A very, _very_ common and _very_ harmful defense mechanism that I've seen and
experienced is to blame others for this, and to develop a sense of arrogance
("nothing but your intelligence"). While this is understandable, I think it's
completely untrue and most importantly: it's utterly pointless. Even _if_ it's
true, it's not going to change how you feel, it's not changing anything and,
worse, will make you focus on these negative emotions.

It's a downward spiral. Your resentment or anger prevents you from seeing
those instances where people _do_ reach out, because you're too busy feeling
bad for yourself. The arrogance you develop as a defense mechanism (however
subconscious this process might be) makes you insufferable, and, well, that's
what we call a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And you know what? Even _that_ is utterly common. There are tons of very
social people who exactly the way you do: lonely, bitter, angry, and
entitled/arrogant. It's just that their particular spiral just looks
different: they might become drama kings or queens, and they flit from
friendship to friendship and relationship to relationship because nobody can
stand them in the long run.

Now let me be less harsh and comment as constructively as I can on some
specific things you say that stand out to me:

> We can't hit you. Then you turn around and think you can slap me? Please.
> Don't slap me or I'm going to be really tempted to slap you back.

As a rule, I don't hit girls. There are all sorts of good reasons why this
rule is good. But there have been few occasions, few and far between, where I
warned a repeat-hitter (of the non-playful style of hitting) to cut it out or
I'll hit her back, 'conventions' be damned. And it's happened that I did
physically restrain or push a girl after she'd continue to be abusive.

Now, I never outright hit a woman, but that's because it was never necessary.
Maybe one day I might hit a woman. But you know what? It's not relevant. It
never happens, as I don't hang around women who punch me. If you do, then stop
doing that.

But letting that happen and making conclusions about 'women' seems like a bit
of a silly thing to do. It's like concluding all black people are thieves
because you decide to walk around in a gang-area with money flapping out of
your pockets.

But it does fit in the victim-role that I've once taken on, for understandable
reasons, and that you might find yourself taking on currently.

> Women can be ruthless. It's not just men.

Yes, they're human, and a lot of humans are shitty excuses for humans. But I
know very few people who think otherwise, and that includes people who are bit
too far on the militant feminism side of things. And again, why not just avoid
people who claim that women are _not_ ruthless.

> And a lot of this is that I don't get it. I don't. I am horrible socially.

You probably are. So was I, and I still am in many ways. That's why I like to
spend a lot of days alone with a computer, or the comfortably-distant company
of people on IRC or Hacker News. That way I can think about my responses and
not feel anxious.

The moment I realized that _it is okay to be an introvert or loner_ , I became
much happier. And as a result I found it easier to go out and learn to
socialize and deal with my anxiety find a balance. I will always be more
anxious kind of person, but that is why I seek out people who suit me in that
way. Other geeks are great for that.

But acceptance is key to this, and resentment and arrogance keep you from
accepting yourself, and then figuring out how else you could be.

> When will being a beta male be OK?

Go to a tech meetup. A programming camp. Stuff like that. Talk to a
psychologist. The world is filled with beta males and nobody cares. Nice
people care that you are _nice_ , and even plenty of 'alpha' males, hot and
social girls, and whatnot, can enjoy the company of nice beta-males. I've
experienced that, and it still surprises me sometimes that once you're out of
the high-school clique-mentality, we nerds can offer a lot to others.

Once I lost my anger and resentment, and decided to accept my nerdy, anxious,
socially-inept selp, I gradually became the guy people wanted to be friends
with. The guy who you talk to about serious stuff. The guy who gets carried
away by some nerdy topic, but isn't that kinda funny and interesting and you
can just tell him to shut up already and watch the football. The guy who girls
of many varieties like because he's got a mind that he likes to use, and
despite his oddness, he _cares_ about them and _respects_ them (and even alpha
males need nerd-love!).

> And I have to take you out, pay for your dinner, and your concert tickets
> [etc.]

No you don't. Part of the problem is that you don't really know what you
'have' to do, on account of being so stuck in your notions of what this
'outside' world is like. If I'm on a date, I usually split the bill. Or I pay
if I feel like it and if I like the girl enough to conform to 'conventions'
that might exist.

If she cares that I don't pay, that's the last date.

Just to be clear, I could be off about you. I'm just trying to interpret what
you're saying. But if you don't feel I'm being accurate, my apologies. I'm
just sharing this out of frustration over having seen so many people get lost
in loneliness (or even depression or homelessness) for precisely the reasons I
describe.

The core mechanism is simple:

1\. person can't 'function' in a way they themselves desire, for a variety of
reasons (mental issues, personality, personal history, etc). 2\. person gets
understandably sad and frustrated and lonely, and nobody seems to care 3\.
person develops a constant feeling of inferiority and failure, and their mind
shields them from this through inflated ego, arrogance, entitlement,
controlling behavior, extreme introspection (leading to a false
'understanding' of the world) and a variety of other defense mechanisms. 4\.
these two seemingly opposite things interact to both confirm his negative
feelings, and further destroy his sense of self-worth and self-acceptance.

The only way out is to suck it up, seek professional help, learn to be a nice
person, learn to comfortably reject shitty people (as a result of having the
self-worth and awareness to do so), and avoid especially the isolating, 'I am
a special snowflake' type of thinking, again and again.

I can still fall into the snowflake trap, as I am a self-involved human like
anyone else. But it's easier for me to get out of that now by remembering that
I am not alone, my problems are _shockingly_ common, and that everyone needs
good people to offset the shit that happens. Trying to be such a good person,
and finding help for my particular problems, has make me so much happier than
I've been for most of my life.

> I'm just so tired of everyone yelling this, that, and the other thing, and
> missing the picture that is mental illness

You (and I) might have legitimate issues, but the only purpose of labeling
them as illness is if we go and find a cure. Otherwise we're just emotional
hypochondriacs.

------
muhuk
Perhaps the author is an inadequate human being. Or perhaps he's perfectly
fine and everybody around him is broken and twisted. I guess he should find
out the answer himself. But a little perspective helps.

I'll risk suggesting some Stefan Molyneux and some Karen Straughan:

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-coVbPfh6k](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-coVbPfh6k)

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PO8J6SGy7o](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PO8J6SGy7o)

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfgbIM3gvyI](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfgbIM3gvyI)

OP: feel free email me if want to bounce off some ideas, be be warned I'm not
`nice`.

------
catinahat
Your sentiments aren't wrong, but your delivery is a bit cringe-worthy at
times, and probably isn't gonna get a lot of respect (much less help the
cause) as a result.

I highly recommend looking through Karen Straughan's youtube channel [0] to
help you gather your thoughts on the matter and deliver arguments in a less
'potentially inflammatory' way; because like it or not, unfortunately this
viewpoint is the underdog and is always met with _heavy_ , emotionally charged
criticism that doesn't look to understand the logic of the argument first.

Also, despite it's criticisms, the
[http://reddit.com/r/mensrights](http://reddit.com/r/mensrights) community is
very diverse, understanding and well-reasoned -- unlike a lot of the old
cliche misogynistic "No Ma'am"[1] MRA's of the 90's. So if you're looking for
support from others who have shared and/or noticed your type of experiences
(not just men!), it's a good place to hang out.

Also, here's a good intro to how people usually discover and fall into this
rabbithole/problem that's pretty enlightening:

[http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/24lqgf/came_here...](http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/24lqgf/came_here_mislead_i_absolutely_see_nothing_wrong/)

Hope that helps!

[0] [https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcmnLu5cGUGeLy744WS-
fsg](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcmnLu5cGUGeLy744WS-fsg)

[1]
[http://www.bundyology.com/nomaam.html](http://www.bundyology.com/nomaam.html)

~~~
justanotherlame
I agree. I'm not very good at getting my point across. People are often
confused by what I say and I can tell they didn't quite get what I meant. I
wish I could get past that.

Thanks for your comment (and the other guy's). I'll look through all the
links.

~~~
catinahat
Trust me, your phrasing wasn't even bad -- the problem is literally just how
_sensitive_ the actual subject is (as I'm sure you've noticed). It's worse
than debating race/politics/economy/etc, we just have to tread lighter than
walking on eggshells when bringing up these matters in our society
unfortunately.

And as you can see, this thread itself has already been flagged from the front
pages as a result...

~~~
justanotherlame
This is my first time posting. Was it flagged by a moderator or did it just
finally slip off the page?

I'm politically incorrect, and I kind of like it that way. It can cause
issues, and sometimes I hurt people I know when I don't want to, but it's hard
to have a real discussion when one side is whispering and the other is
yelling.

~~~
mercer
I'm sorry for being so 'meta' in here, but here I go again. One thing you
could ask yourself is why feel the need to that discussion in the first place.

I have my own thoughts on the male-female dynamic that are by no means
mainstream and could offend a whole bunch of people. But rather than inflate a
sense of 'disconnect', I now try to find the 'harmony' and to only discuss
these things in the right setting and with the right type of people.

In hindsight, I feel that seeking out such discussions was really just a
combination of on the one hand confirming how much more unique, smart and
reasonable/rational I was in comparisons to other, and on the other hand a way
of justifying my inability to deal with the 'otherness' (of women, social
people, etc.).

Not only did this behavior actively hurt others at times, it didn't really
matter that much to my own life. I could've simply quit engaging with people
who disagree with me to the point of 'active' disharmony, and spent my time
with people who are more, well, agree-able. Or I could've disliked their
beliefs, but given it a rest because in the grand scheme of things not being
lonely is often preferable to being 'right' (within certain limits, of
course).

