
San Diego School District's New 18-Ton Armored Vehicle - fizl
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/09/13/348242448/san-diego-school-district-s-new-15-ton-armored-vehicle-creates-stir
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iamleppert
Why aren't these things dismantled and the ports sold and stripped, and then
that money sent to schools to you know, pay for more teachers, get more
computers, and upgrade classrooms??

What the hell is wrong with people? You think that this thing is free, what
about the costs to store it, repaint it, service it, transport it? That's
certainly not free on the off-chance that they need to use it against some
(probably) student gunman? Really?

These vehicles need to not only be taken away from civilian use, but those
responsible for their procurement at the local and federal levels, including
whoever is in charge of this program, need to be brought to some kind of
justice and/or punished.

~~~
spindritf
I'm guessing that stripping it for parts, transport, and coordination would
cost about as much or maybe even more than whatever value you could extract
that way.

~~~
Crito
Then just drop the thing in the fucking ocean and call it "a reef". Why even
pay to have this sort of shit shipped back to the states?

~~~
benologist
Recycling a perfectly useful vehicle like that is better than throwing it away
for nobody to use. It's a used truck with superfluous armor.

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
They're unsafe. High center of gravity, probably have no emission controls,
too heavy for city streets, etc.

~~~
tzs
> too heavy for city streets

It weighs less than an empty garbage truck or a full school bus, both of which
are routinely allowed on city streets.

~~~
Crito
Both of which are actually useful for something other than fulfilling the
violent war fantasies of power-tripping bureaucrats.

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unethical_ban
The price isn't free, it's was more than $700,000. If these school districts
wanted to send a political message worth hearing, they'd protest government
fat and refuse shipment.

If they were to be completely practical, they still wouldn't take these. "It
will be carrying teddy bears"... buy a van! The maintenance costs on this are
incredibly expensive in the long-term, and I can only imagine what this would
do to small-town roads or fields with even semi-regular use.

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moxie
It was interesting to see that Uber is providing financial support for police
militarization:

[https://twitter.com/shane_bauer/status/507978633894313985](https://twitter.com/shane_bauer/status/507978633894313985)

Shane Bauer's full coverage of the "Urban Shield" police convention in Oakland
was great:

[http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2014/09/video-highlights-
oak...](http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2014/09/video-highlights-oaklands-
urbanshield-conference) [https://storify.com/smbauer1/urban-shield-swat-
convention-in...](https://storify.com/smbauer1/urban-shield-swat-convention-
in-oakland-2014)

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noonespecial
The waste is terrible but I'm thinking there's something worse going on here.
Children are being desensitized to seeing the weapons of war being used in
daily life by local authorities. This is a bad, bad thing.

~~~
electromagnetic
Honestly this is more insidious than the brain washing that went on in the
Hitler Youth. This has got to be what the Jews in the ghettos were seeing
before everyone found out who they were to be used on.

~~~
benologist
I don't really see how this is vastly different to the armored trucks used by
banks and security services for decades?

~~~
noonespecial
Its a tank. At school.

Where the children are suspended for nibbling a pop-tart into the shape of a
pistol.

~~~
benologist
Tank:
[http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Japanese_...](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Japanese_Type_90_Tank_-_2.jpg)

Armored truck:
[http://www.armoredcarssale.com/vehicledata/international/470...](http://www.armoredcarssale.com/vehicledata/international/4700/f1011/used_armored_truck_1280x960-053208.jpg)

Their vehicle: [http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2014/09/13/mrap-
ambulance_wi...](http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2014/09/13/mrap-
ambulance_wide-54bf7231fc1cc86cb1def00ac37882d44e3405f4-s40-c85.jpg)

~~~
LnxPrgr3
To be fair, an MRAP is quite a step above armored car—including being huge,
heavy, fuel-hungry, and designed for use in war zones.

And MRAP use was somewhat controversial even in Iraq, where they were designed
to be used:
[https://web.archive.org/web/20070718130937/http://www.defens...](https://web.archive.org/web/20070718130937/http://www.defensetech.org/archives/003798.html)

For a lighter look at what an MRAP really is, thanks to Top Gear (though this
is a South African vehicle, not the ones we deployed):
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDoRmT0iRic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDoRmT0iRic)

They're not tanks, but I can see why people would call them that.

~~~
electromagnetic
Armoured vans used by banks are highly dangerous on the roads, so are just
regular armoured cars.

Putting a MRAP into the hands of people who do not routinely drive them is
just gross negligence. If the drive hits _anything_ at road speeds and they're
killing it. This is not a vehicle that should be put anywhere near children,
it's just negligent.

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_cudgel
If the US Gov't wants to unload these things, how about donating them to the
UN for their use, while giving the US Gov't a credit toward back dues?

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DanBC
How much does it cost to insure and maintain these vehicles? And how much
would it cost to fuel it to drive from where er it's kept to where ever it
needs to go?

Because if you need a medical vehical there are probably better vehicles.
Unless you actually need a 15 ton mineproof vehicle.

~~~
maxerickson
Larger entities usually self insure, so the incremental cost for this type of
stuff probably isn't very high.

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ufmace
From what I've read about these things, the maintenance costs if they're used
for anything but sitting in a parking lot are insane, especially in the
civilian world. There's no established supply chain for special tools and
spare parts like there are for normal, mass-market vehicles, so they have to
pay through the nose and wait forever for them, or do without. Making this an
especially strange purchase. Any cost saved on getting the vehicle will soon
be eaten up by fuel and maintenance costs - I'm sure the gas mileage is
terrible too.

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defen
San Diego is coated in Navy bases...so the extent to which you could argue
that there is a plausible scenario where this thing would be useful is
completely obviated by the existing huge military presence. Furthermore, _even
if_ it were useful for civilians, why is it in the hands of a school district
rather than the police? Who is going to pay for the maintenance? This is
completely insane. People are putting their own desire for a "cool" piece of
hardware ahead of any rational justification for it relative to its costs.

~~~
jmccree
Like many school districts across the nation, the school district has it's own
police force: "San Diego Unified School District Police Department". Of course
many now want their own SWAT teams. For the children!

~~~
johan_larson
What kind of schools they're running if they need cops so often that they've
formed their own force? I'm pretty sure none of my schools in Canada and
Finland had even a security guard.

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spiritplumber
Clearly, we must lobby San Diego School District to start a Sensha-Do program,
since they've already got a tank...

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls_und_Panzer](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls_und_Panzer)

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cb18
The most ridiculous thing about this, apart from it being ridiculous in every
way, is that these are purpose built machines of war good for only one thing,
being resistant to mines. They would have no advantage in use over nearly any
other vehicle, police cruiser, ambulance, segway, bicycle, in the extreme
situations cited as potential use cases.

I don't know what the fuck the dipshits at OSU are thinking when they say
they'll use it in conjunction with football games. Maybe somebody got drunk
one night and a little too into an academic paper on college football as
pseudo warring tribes or something.

I guess these things are good for a couple other things besides being
resistant to mines. Namely burning a fuckton of oil and accelerating the
deterioration of roads. All the more reason to produce more machines of war to
commandeer the resources of hostile foreign nations to have the raw materials
to refine gasoline and produce asphalt.

Well that's probably not good thing, after all.

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moo
I'm not going to vote for more school funding when money will be spent to
maintain armored vehicles.

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smutticus
Proving once again that the purpose of war/fear is to transfer public wealth
into private hands.

~~~
jlcx
Of course, before it was taken by the government, that "public wealth" was
private wealth, and the taking of that private wealth was also justified with
fear.

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rdtsc
It is interesting that it got to this and I wonder how many in chain from next
down the chain of "hey let's give this to the school district" idea person, to
"i am painting a mine-resistant tank in white, so we can use it in a San Diego
school district" thought "surely this can't be right" but then did it anyway.

In general, with all the militarization of police articles and news. Maybe the
proper way is a militarized response to it. Crank it up a level and let it get
even more ridiculous. Petty thieves and drug dealers should learn about how to
build and detonate shaped charges to defeat these things. It shouldn't be too
hard. A copper cone with some explosive behind it should do it. Then wait for
the police to start flying drones with hellfire missiles through the inner
cities and blasting away whole city blocks. Then use home made SAM missiles to
defeat those and so on.

Pretty sure with proper PR one can easily invoke the spirit of Founding
Fathers and revolutionary and constitutionally sanctioned fight against
oppression in response the corresponding rhetoric about Drug or Terror War.

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georgemcbay
I live in San Diego and this has been big local news for about a week.

Obviously this is insane, not only because the militarization of domestic
police is a serious issue and their justification for getting one of these is
obviously a completely impractical use, but mainly because the reason the
military is dumping these things in the first place is because they cost too
much for them to maintain

TOO MUCH FOR THE MILITARY (budget: nearly 1 trillion) TO MAINTAIN!

Also... what's next, police getting all the Abrams tanks that the Army no
longer wants but which keep getting built due to pork-barreling
Congresspeople?

[http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/the-end-of-
th...](http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/the-end-of-the-tank-the-
army-says-it-doesnt-need-it-but-industry-wants-to-keep-building-
it/2014/01/31/c11e5ee0-60f0-11e3-94ad-004fefa61ee6_story.html)

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moo
A lot of downsides to this. High maintenance cost, conditioning children to
live in a militarized environment, more bureaucratic overhead for management
and administrative decisions (the administrative officials may see this as job
security).

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dba7dba
You can't even give these MRAPs away to our allies. S Korean govt was offered
2000 of these by Pentagon. SK Govt was basically getting them for free plus
transportation cost. Guess what? After a few trials in their nations, they
realized it wasn't suitable. Too big/heavy. Gas guzzler. Expensive to
maintain.

Invading Iraq was a mistake. Disbanding Iraqi army was a bigger mistake imo.

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kristopolous
even if you believed the entire narrative it still doesn't work. The efficacy
of a criminal is due to the response time of the enforcement.

It doesn't matter if 30 police show up in tanks if it takes them 45 minutes to
do so, except for instance of you know, mass protest and civil unrest.

It's like we're moving towards a day where the photograph of the tank man is
no longer shocking

~~~
tedunangst
? What narrative? What does efficacy of a criminal have to do with it?

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iterationx
These programs are a nice application of the "Stanford Prison Experiment".
Dress a man like RoboCop and he starts acting like RoboCop.

~~~
kabouseng
You know that experiment had some serious flaws making the results highly
suspect?

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lotsofcows
Free? How much does that thing cost to insure? And fuel?

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benihana
A school district buying one of these is like a guy that makes $40,000 a year
buying a Ferrari from the 1980s because it costs $10,000. Sure he can afford
to purchase it, but as soon as he needs to replace the $4,000 clutch, he's
going to go broke or have a broken, rotting vehicle stuck in his driveway.

