
GNU Users Who Have Never Heard of GNU (2006) - asamant
https://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-users-never-heard-of-gnu.html
======
kryptiskt
Most of the stuff in userland isn't GNU. What GNU brings to the table pales in
comparison to the technical complexity of the kernel or the GUI stack. While
the kernel has grown up over the years from a janky hobby project to be a
sophisticated base for smartphones and supercomputers, GNU still provides a
bunch of common Unix utilities from the 80s and a C standard library. Maybe
it's time to recognize that they aren't pulling their weight to get top
billing here.

~~~
PeCaN
err are you forgetting about GCC or something

(also theres emacs and 50 years of bloat have led to libc and common unix
utilities ending up surprisingly complicated but i digress)

~~~
new_realist
Most code these days is compiled using LLVM, thanks to mobile phones.

~~~
saagarjha
Most code doesn't end up on mobile phones.

~~~
0xdeadb00f
I beg to differ

------
pedrocr
The vast majority of what runs on a modern Linux system doesn't come from GNU
at all and that percentage is trending down over the years with things like
LLVM making even the last few generally used core pieces replaceable. I don't
think there's now anything to stop you from running a fully recognizable Linux
distribution without any GNU software at all.

It was a silly argument to be getting into 10 years ago. These days it just
seems like trying to take credit for other people's work. I have great respect
for the GNU project and the GPL was a great invention that I use when I
release stuff. Beating this dead horse just detracts from that.

~~~
devit
glibc and bash are needed to have a traditional Unix-like Linux-based system
and I don't think they have any fully compatible replacements (musl and BSD sh
aren't).

~~~
figomore
I think ZSH is a valid alternative to Bash.

~~~
bashinator
IIRC, not just a alternative, but a full super-set.

~~~
saagarjha
No, Zsh is not a full super-set of Bash.

------
retonom
I like this description why people should mention GNU. With "open source
software" or "Linux" or "Ubuntu" there are no moral implications, nothing to
stand for except that it should do the job.

But GNU is different. The idea is to emphasize sharing and freedom and
community.

In a world that is driven almost only by profit margins we do well to have
some ideals.

GNU has enabled Linux and Ubuntu to come to life. Without GNU there wouldn't
be any Linux as we know it today.

Also Torvalds had adopted the GNU GPL (what MS called the "cancer") for the
kernel. Who knows where we would be if that wouldn't have been the case.

~~~
salutonmundo
"Free" or "libre" also have moral implications, and are relevant even when
calling something "GNU" would be inaccurate.

------
stereo
[https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/GNU](https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/GNU) has
the list of software that the GNU project provides. While most systems that
run a Linux kernel will require having many of those installed (sed, tar,
grep, gzip, bash...), most of the software running on most of these computers
these days will not be from the GNU project.

Many users will likely never use any GNU software directly these days, and it
is increasingly possible to build systems with less and less parts from the
GNU project.

It would be fantastic for the GNU project's visibility if it expanded its
focus on software that would potentially be more widely used directly by
humans. Where's the GNU project's alternative to Zoom? Why is Savannah so far
behind GitLab? Where are the GNU apps for mobile?

~~~
yjftsjthsd-h
> It would be fantastic for the GNU project's visibility if it expanded its
> focus on software that would potentially be more widely used directly by
> humans.

Agreed, but...

> Where's the GNU project's alternative to Zoom?

[https://jami.net/](https://jami.net/) (formerly GNU Ring), I think

> Why is Savannah so far behind GitLab?

I'm inclined to agree with this, moreso as I hadn't even realized until now
that it was even a thing outside being used for official GNU repos (much like
how Canonical's Bazaar is technically open source but 100% only ever intended
to run Canonical's ... canonical... instance).

> Where are the GNU apps for mobile?

While the sibling comment is probably correct that GNU isn't fond of
supporting nonFree platforms, ex. IceCat is on F-Droid.

~~~
timClicks
"Canonical's Bazaar" .. do you mean launchpad.net?

~~~
yjftsjthsd-h
Ah, darn it, yes you're correct. Bazzar is the vcs, not the site.

------
saagarjha
Most Linux users have never heard of Linux, either ;)

------
coffeecat
> Most people have never heard of GNU. Even most of the people who use the GNU
> system have never heard of GNU, since so many people and companies teach
> them to call it “Linux”. Indeed, GNU users often say they are “running
> Linux”, which is like saying you are “driving your carburetor” or “driving
> your transmission”.

Did Stallman really write this in 2006? Cars haven't had carburetors since the
early 90s.

~~~
jshevek
Listening to politicians debate this year has reminded me how most people's
mental models of the world remain firmly stuck in the decades of their youth.

------
Fice
I usually refer to distributions like Debian or Fedora as GNU/Linux to
distinguish them from other systems that use Linux kernel (e.g. Android). GNU
defines the runtime environment, and by knowing that a system is GNU, we
understand what software it is supposed to run. The kernel is mostly relevant
for hardware support, the runtime defines software compatibility.

If we look deeper, we see that GNU/Linux is a C system, and I'd argue that
this is the most essential characteristic ("An operating system is a
collection of things that don’t fit inside a language; there shouldn’t be one”
— Dan Ingalls, Design Principles Behind Smalltalk). Of course, GNU system
supports many programming languages, but they all use C to interface with the
system. Get familiar with non-C systems like Smalltalk or Oberon to see how
programming language is essential. Also web browsers grew to become operating
systems of their own (running on top of C systems for now) — the JavaScript
systems.

~~~
linuxquestions8
Other users have touched on the fact that GNU makes up a very small part of
the current user-land ecosystem. It seems to me that the only reason to keep
GNU in the GNU/Linux title is for historical purposes, but even then I
wouldn't argue for that. Why is GNU worthy of being included when referring to
a Linux system in 2020? Linux, as I know it, seems to be pretty distinct from
what it was before my time.

~~~
imtringued
I use Gnome every single day. It's a pretty substantial part of the user
experience.

~~~
theamk
I don’t - and yet I work on the same OS, writing the same code and scripts
using the same tools (clang, bazel, python).

Gnome is not a defining part of a modern linux system, it is just one choice
of many DEs. And a large fraction of Linux systems don’t run any DE at all.

------
iso947
More accurate to call it “systemd/Linux” nowadays

