
Portugal electricity generation temporarily reaches 100% renewable - mgdo
https://reneweconomy.com.au/portugal-reaches-100-renewables-ends-fossil-fuel-subsidies-32820/
======
SCHiM
I see a number of people in this thread include biodiesel and wood burning
with other renewable energy sources. While in theory biodiesel and wood
burning are carbon neutral, the way they are used in Europe is anything but!

I wanted to warn you all that many countries in the EU currently enforce
renewable resource quotas. This is what you want, however the incentives are
incorrect, and the quotas are met by _importing_ the wood/diesel from
somewhere else. The EU does not oversee the reforestation/replanting of the
combustible matter that is burned. So there's no guarantee that the
wood/biodiesel consumed is actually carbon neutral. For all I know we're
burning forests down but not planting them back. Not to mention that the
biodiesel is competing with human food...

~~~
lawlessone
You should read about the Ash-for-Cash scandal in Northern Ireland. It was a
scheme to get people using renewables for heat but the end result was some
people wasting vast amounts of energy heating empty sheds to make a profit...
a little like crypto-mining in a way..

[https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-
ireland/far...](https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-
ireland/farmer-gets-1m-of-public-cash-to-heat-empty-shed-catastrophic-blunder-
threatening-to-drain-hundreds-of-millions-from-northern-irelands-block-
grant-34856610.html)

edit: If they just had proper checks and balances and worked out the reward
correctly it could have worked.

------
HugoDaniel
Currently we are passing through an atypical wind and rain period. Our dams
are full and pouring out water as we are producing more energy than we
consume.

Despite all of this energy prices don't drop as they are bound to one of the
few legal monopolies in Europe: the grid operation cartel (REN in the article,
there is only one allowed for each EU country).

Also this feels as fake news since we have a few very old (and historically
insecure, like sines power plant and carregado power plant) fossil fuel power
plants that are still operating with no signs of slowing down while making
profits through several scams in chemical engineering their way into the 0
emissions lot.

~~~
sergiosgc
Sines is the only coal plant in the country. Carregado has been converted to a
combined cycle natural gas plant. The remaining thermal power plants all burn
natural gas/biomass.

~~~
HugoDaniel
Thanks, i edited my comment accordingly :)

------
elmar
Portugal’s gas and electricity the most expensive in Europe

[https://algarvedailynews.com/news/8958-portugal-s-gas-and-
el...](https://algarvedailynews.com/news/8958-portugal-s-gas-and-electricity-
the-most-expensive-in-europe)

Portuguese with highest standardized energy bills in the EU
[http://www.theportugalnews.com/news/portuguese-with-
highest-...](http://www.theportugalnews.com/news/portuguese-with-highest-
standardised-energy-bills-in-the-eu/38360)

------
giocampa
"That shows how ridiculous a 27% target for 2030 is" Yeah well, if your
country has plenty of wind coming from the ocean and you are not a big
industrial nation with a lot of energy demand, then 27% seems to be a low
goal...

~~~
masklinn
These statements are utterly infuriating. Yeah Iceland has been 100% RE for
years, guess what when your country can do 40MWh/person/year on hydro alone
and isn't even at 100% hydro capacity yet _it kinda fucking helps_.

~~~
zaroth
> 40MWh/person/year of hydro

 _That can’t be right...._

<Google...google...google>

 _Well shit._

------
aembleton
That is brilliant. Right now, Portugal is getting 14% of its electricity from
gas and 8% from coal. But then it is also exporting 19% to Spain so it is very
close to being completely renewable.

[https://www.electricitymap.org/?page=country&solar=false&rem...](https://www.electricitymap.org/?page=country&solar=false&remote=true&wind=false&countryCode=PT)

------
pipio21
The complete history is that we had a drought in the Iberian Peninsula that
made electricity cost skyrocket last year.

Now last two months we had an abnormal rain season with lots of snow and rain,
so dams and water reservoirs are getting more water, and rivers Tagus and
Duero-Douro could carry more water to Portugal as the dams upstream are
getting full, like it should for this time of the year.

The complete history is that in the Iberian Peninsula there are three months
with almost no rain: June-July and August because of the Azores high and you
can not depend on hydro generation there.

~~~
icebraining
Hydro generation can happen even without rain, that's what reservoirs are for.
The problem is if this drought extends beyond that, as it did last year.

------
geezerjay
The article omits the fact that as a consequence Portugal has one of the
highest energy prices in europe and that fact played a significant role in the
portuguese economic crisis that started back in 2008 and culminated in the
2011 banktuptcy and subsequent bailout program.

~~~
Mashimo
>The article omits the fact that as a consequence Portugal has one of the
highest energy prices in europe

It's in the Top 6, yet only slightly more then Euro-area average. [0]

Though it might be higher if you take average income into account.

[0] [http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-
explained/images/7/7...](http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-
explained/images/7/79/Electricity_prices_for_household_consumers%2C_first_half_2017_%28EUR_per_kWh%29.png)

from [http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-
explained/index.php/...](http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-
explained/index.php/Electricity_price_statistics)

~~~
adrianN
Before taxes it's even below EU average.

~~~
dx034
Which doesn't matter because you have to pay taxes.

~~~
adrianN
It matters if you want to judge whether renewable energy makes production more
expensive or not.

~~~
geezerjay
You're missing the point. The portuguese state levies energy taxes as part of
the public-private partnership deals which subsidize corporations that took a
part of the national renewable energy program.

Those taxes are so eggregious that even the IMF demanded that the portuguese
government should lower them as they harmed the economic recovery.

------
asymmetric
On the one hand this is great news. On the other, (hydroelectric) dams appear
to me to be very invasive, with high costs for the environments and the
populations around them.

~~~
TomK32
They are but a lot of the old dams, fallen into disuse long ago are being
removed. A few new big ones are a nuisance but there's thousands upon
thousands that hinder small rivers

Here's a map, though nothing on Portugal, the Spanish map is quite impressive

[https://damremoval.eu](https://damremoval.eu)

~~~
asymmetric
Amazing resource, thank you. To quote[0] on the environmental impacts alone:

 _\- Dams impact every aspect of healthy rivers._

 _\- Dams lead to loss of river habitat as the river is transferred into
impoundments, (impoundments or reservoirs are not lakes)._

 _\- Dams lead to loss of river habitat as the hydro and sediments dynamics in
the river are severely modified. This impact can reach hundreds of kilometres
down the river and affect deltas._

 _\- Dams seriously impede the migrations of fish and this leads directly to
the decline and even local extinction of many species. If we want to keep
certain fish species in Europe, like eel, sturgeon, salmon, it is of great
importance to restore connectivity from sea to source. However, we tend to
focus on fish in relation to dam impacts; but many other species living in the
water and on land depend on natural rivers and would benefit from free-
flowing rivers._

 _\- Modification of water dynamics do also alter habitats and thereby
favouring different, often invasive species_

[0]: [https://damremoval.eu/about/](https://damremoval.eu/about/)

~~~
icebraining
Yes. In fact, the biggest dam in Portugal (Alqueva) has probably had a
negative impact on multiple species of land carnivores, including endangered
species like the Iberian lynx, due to its large extension of flooded land.

------
tasubotadas
>temporarily reaches

And that's a problem. You don't want "temporarily". If it is temporarily then
it is if it doesn't exist at all - there has to be a prepared reserve (read
power plants operating) for the cases when renewable doesn't reach 100%.

AFAIK, energy distributors have to have the equal amount of production
capacity in regular power plants as there is renewable energy (well, not
renewable but wind+solar - the ones that variate the most).

Until battery packs become widely available, I would say that solar+wind is
quite a poor choice to reduce CO2 (assuming that it is the reason why we do
renewable at all).

~~~
lukeschlather
If you read the article, you will see that 55% of the power in question was
hydro, so your comment seems a little beside the point, since we are not
talking about wind+solar, but wind+solar+hydro.

Though obviously it's spring so this isn't a year-round possibility.

------
JetSpiegel
> ends fossil fuel subsidies

With much teeth grinding from companies that sold all its production to the
network, and then bought the energy they needed at lower price. The subsidies
did their job, the installed capacity is now large enough.

~~~
icebraining
From what I can tell, they weren't ended, just suspended pending the reply of
the EU about whether they don't break the rules regarding public financing of
the energy sector.

Source (Portuguese):
[https://dre.pt/web/guest/home/-/dre/114949214/details/maximi...](https://dre.pt/web/guest/home/-/dre/114949214/details/maximized)

------
freedomben
This is great news. I'm especially happy to see fossil fuel subsidies
disappear as well. Energy sources should compete based on efficiency, and
efficiency gets mangled by interference on cost of goods. Renewables will
dominate soon as cost of production beats out fossils, and this is a great
thing for our wallets and our planet.

------
dwighttk
>The group noted that while fossil fuel plants still worked for short periods
to complement the electricity supply, those were fully compensated by other
periods of greater renewable production.

Portugal produced enough renewable energy in a month to cover their electrical
demand for that month if the demand had been at convenient times. They also
produced energy in non-renewable ways to meet short-term electrical demand
within that month.

------
scottishfiction
Scotland managed it from wind alone.

"On one day in particular, 15 May, output from turbines generated enough
electricity to power 190% of homes or 99% of Scotland's total electricity
demand."

[http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-40149604](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-
scotland-40149604)

------
Kazzok
Let’s hope more EU countries follow the path

~~~
skocznymroczny
Unfortunately the problem with renewables is that they work well only in
countries with a specific climate. For example in Poland, none of the
renewables are really worth it as much as it is in other countries. We don't
have enough sunny days to make solar great, we don't have enough strong winds
to make wind farms great and we don't have enough rivers to make hydro plants
great :(

~~~
tom_mellior
> We don't have enough sunny days to make solar great

That's what people say about Germany too, but they keep breaking surprising
solar records. Looking at the maps at
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_Germany#/media/...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_Germany#/media/File:SolarGIS-
Solar-map-Germany-en.png) and
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_Poland#/media/F...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_Poland#/media/File:SolarGIS-
Solar-map-Poland-en.png) it looks like the potential is not _that_ different,
though Southern Germany does have some areas with more peak sun. But those are
not the only areas where they have solar installations in Germany.

EDIT: Let me qualify this a bit, the colors are somewhat misleading in direct
comparison. Looking at the numbers, most of Poland seems to be roughly
comparable to the northern half of Germany in terms of solar potential. And
that potential _is_ used in Germany, even in the north.

> we don't have enough strong winds

I'm really just guessing here, but my impression was that having access to the
sea basically guarantees offshore wind power potential. Also, all of Eastern
Europe is basically a single flat pancake, you should get strong wind straight
from Russia, I think. That was the case when I was living in Eastern Austria,
at least (where there is a bunch of wind power).

~~~
gaius
_all of Eastern Europe is basically a single flat pancake_

The steppe, it’s called. But don’t forget the Urals.

~~~
spdionis
Which are in Russia

~~~
gaius
... so will affect winds coming from Russia

------
dgarceran
I wish I could say the same about Spain... [https://www.quora.com/Has-Spain-
really-banned-private-solar-...](https://www.quora.com/Has-Spain-really-
banned-private-solar-panels)

------
mtgx
It's sad that they could only end the fossil fuel subsidies when they had
already reached 100% renewable power.

Hopefully other countries will end fossil fuel subsidies much sooner than
that.

~~~
icebraining
Actually, the subsidies weren't ended, just suspended while the government
waits for EU decision about whether they are in accordance to the EU
directives. If the EU says they are, they will be resumed. The government does
say they plan to review them, but hasn't yet.

Still, the subsidies are just to ensure that the plants are kept ready to
assist if there's a need.

------
garethrees
This is a great achievement, but the headline is misleading because it's only
Portugal's ELECTRICITY GENERATION that (temporarily) reached 100% renewable,
and electricity constitutes only about 25% of Portugal's energy consumption
(source: Eurostat). A further 15% or so of Portgual's energy consumption is
renewable in other forms (wood burning, biodiesel), but that leaves a large
majority of fossil fuels (about 50% petroleum for transport and 10% natural
gas for heating).

~~~
lucideer
You're absolutely right that the article title is incorrect, but reaching 100%
renewables including heating and transport would be a sci-fi feat at this
stage so it's not really that misleading. The fact it's electrical generation
is almost implied by logic. Almost.

Still, it should be corrected for clarity. But it seems a remarkable
achievement.

On the fact that it's temporary, I'm curious to see how long any country or
even region takes to reach 100% permanent renewable generation. That could be
similarly sci-fi-ish, even if there's some recent hope in battery-related news
stories.

~~~
IgorPartola
If you have mountains, you have batteries. Pump water up the mountain when you
have extra juice, pump it down when you need extra. I was also curious about a
sort of spinning mass energy storage. Get a big cylinder of concrete or lead
spinning with the extra juice, then generate the energy back.

~~~
lucideer
You're thinking of flywheel storage. There are a few of these running. One
pretty big one in Ontario for example.

~~~
bluesroo
Tangentially, some car manufacturers have done prototypes of this as well.
Look up the Porsche GT3R Hybrid or the Volvo S60 prototype for an example...
Unfortunately it appears that for one reason or another no one has decided to
move forward with these into actual consumer cars.

~~~
saon
There are a few reasons including weight, safety, cost, package size, etc. A
flywheel that can hold appreciable energy requires high speed or high mass as
well as a low drag / bearing friction environment. The passengers must be
protected from catastrophic failure of the flywheel by some strong casing (
more weight ) and cant be 'turned off' in an emergency. In race cars where
heavy braking and acceleration are the norm and cost is not a factor, light,
strong, fast flywheels can do a good job provided they run on active bearings
in a low pressure casing. In a heavy road car the additional weight required
makes the engine less efficient in terms of mpg, and probably less safe during
a crash ( or if similarly safe, much heavier due to casing requirements ).
Combine this with the inability to externally charge the flywheel and there
arent really any great reasons to use it over electric energy storage

------
xxxdarrenxxx
While I don't want to take anything away from Portugal, we should maintain
objectivity. The Netherlands for example have a poor rating in regards to
renewable energy source.

Looking back at Portugal, their main source is a hydroelectric dam and their
second is wind.

The netherlands have basically no elevation, so they literally can't make an
(efficient) dam.

The Netherlands also have extremely bad ratio between landmass/population, so
there's quite literally little space for mass Wind turbines.

Portugal also has the luxury of not sharing their coast, while the netherlands
have to share the (small) northern sea with multiple countries (England for
one) so they literally can't build wind turbines randomly in the sea without
breaking a treaty.

Netherlands and England as well are not exactly sunny countries thus solar is
also inherently more inefficient than countries closer to the equator.

Then there's general climate arguments (annual wind amounts and speeds)

I think these are very important factors because the variable for a coal plant
is the same, so a direct comparison between Portugal and The Netherlands and
potentially other eu countries is somewhat apples and oranges.

