

OccupyGezi raises funds for full page ad - mtgx
http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/full-page-ad-for-turkish-democracy-in-action-occupygezi-for-the-world--33

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peace4democracy
Erdogan government is an oppressive government, with increasing authoritarian
and antidemocratic politics, and his supporters include a lot of Islamic
organizations, comprising elements of Al Kaida, Hizbullah and other salafist
organizations and they all have strong antisemitic tone. This government
recently released all the members of Islamic terrorist organizations, who
aggressively killed many innocent people. So watch out other comments, here,
mainly many supporters of the government, are here to just make a false
impression of peaceful environmental demonstrations, violently oppressed.

Be careful. some supporters of the government, are even forming Nazi SS style
mobs to attack demonstrating families. People like @cup, are cleverly embedded
opinion makers, who are there to hide the authoritarian, regime. Erdogan
yesterday called, Twitter a curse and social media an enemy. So be careful
about commenters here.

~~~
qubitsam
Your comment is full of emotionally sensational discourse, and very short on
data or sources to support it.

Furthermore, you attack a fellow HNer (@cup) and brand him a "Nazi" for
sharing sensible argument, instead of addressing the points he makes.

The recent discussions around Turkey on HN, and the fact that comments like
yours are getting upvoted, speaks heaps of the direction this site is heading
towards.

~~~
muhuk
He didn't brand @cup as a Nazi. He is talking about events like this:

[https://twitter.com/__VLKN__/status/341430566362697730/photo...](https://twitter.com/__VLKN__/status/341430566362697730/photo/1)

Oversimplified translations is; AKP members are given police uniforms to go
beat up protesters.

Please watch some of these videos:
<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5812290>

~~~
qubitsam
> Oversimplified translations is; AKP members are given police uniforms to go
> beat up protesters.

And I'm supposed to take this at face value, without this being corroborated
by different news outlets? For all I know, the people from both sides of this
matter are trying to social engineer me into being on their side. I am not on
either's side.

~~~
muhuk
I am not asking you to believe its authenticity. I was just pointing out to an
example of the events he was referring to when he said Nazi. You said he
called @cup a Nazi, that is not true.

------
csomar
Whatever is happening in Turkey, things don't get solved by a revolution. A
revolution is the worst thing that can happen to a country at this time. I'll
list here a few of key reasons:

1\. Vulnerability: A loss of the leader will cause wide internal and external
vulnerability. Any party will try to somehow colonize the vulnerable country
which doesn't have a clear leader or a clear path. Certainly, for their
economic, political and geographic benefits.

2\. Economic deterioration: It's even worse in Turkey. Loss of Touristic money
flow will cause the economy to deteriorate and joblessness to increase,
increasing instability and feeding that loop.

3\. Less Freedom and democracy: Indeed, a revolution on the streets doesn't
bring democracy or free speech. If anything, it encourages extremists to
kill/censor/stop the other party.

Seeing how things developed in Tunisia in the last 3 years, I'll advise
against revolutions at any time. And I'm talking about peaceful ones.

------
cup
Be very careful when it comes to issues about Turkey. There is a very
interesting and subtle social media campaign backed by yet to be seen figures
who are making this a much bigger/disingenious issue than it really is. The
interesting facts you should realise are that Erdogan and his political party
won the last three elctions, increasing their support by about 3 - 5% each
round. Their last win saw them secure 49.4% of the vote, which means over
three terms of power they've actually increased their support base by 15%.

So why are there protests?

Well theyre not about a tree unsurprisingly. There are 3 political factions
who have subverted the initial protest, the BDP, CHP and TKP parties which are
socialist, communist, secular or a combination of them (TKP being the most
extreme).

Surprisingly, these three parties were recently holding protest against
Erdogans decision to allow refugees from Syria to enter Turkey. Yes, the three
parties who are apparantly looking after the wellbeing of trees in a park
don't want refugees of war entering Turkey (though no one mentiosn the fact
that these three parties also support Assad because the Baath party is/was
communist and secular too).

Theres also the DHKP which is an extremist communist (terrorist?) party which
hates the fact that the leader of Turkey is a practising Muslim and that Islam
is seeing a revival in Turkey.

So try to read between the lines and see that theres more to the story than
trees. Redditors and HN folks seem to be falling hook line and sinker for a
fantastic marketing astro turfing campaign.

Just a few more pointers. During erdogans reign he improved the minimum wage
by 500%, allowed farmers to access capital at a 5% interest rate as opposed to
the initial 54% and paid off the last installment towards the IMF freeing them
of all their debts. For the first time in modern era, Turkey now owes no money
to the IMF and is the 15th largets economy in the world.

Turkey does have problems, but theres more to this story that meets the eye
and people need to wonder why and how this has blown up so successfully on
social media sites.

~~~
makmanalp
This is ridiculous. I'm at work so I can't do a point by point refutation but
I will later.

It's obvious that you know more than the average person on this subject, but
you're falling into the trap of thinking that just because you know some
things, you have a good (or even the best) picture of what is happening.

First of all, the main significant thing about these protests is that it was
the FIRST large scale protest to not be organized by any political group(s)
and instead is grassroots. People just started messaging each other and
walking outside of their houses to support others. A day or two later, parties
finally started organizing but the protest is nonpartisan. I have never
otherwise seen a TKP (left-communist party) and MHP (ultra-nationalist right)
flags flying together EVER! There are also people from Laz, soccer teams,
Kurds, workers unions, LGBT groups. I am getting daily updates from almost all
of my friends who are taking part in the protests. The idea that it was
"subverted", or is fake astroturfing is absurd. Read this:
<http://technosociology.org/?p=1255>

Second, yes, Erdogan's leadership resulted in economic reform (the costs of
this is another discussion altogether, but no one can deny the gains). But
this has nothing to do with his authoritarian ruling style. Under his tenure,
Turkey has had the great (!) achievements of dropping to 54th in the
corruption index (<http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/domestic/9967221.asp>)
and "noticable problems" the press freedom index with 33 journalists currently
jailed (<http://en.rsf.org/report-turkey,141.html>). Or political prisoners
(<http://www.fidh.org/International-delegation-finds>).

Third, you need to learn a lot more about election politics and demographics
in Turkey.

Democracy is not elected dictatorship. But Erdogan has made it clear that this
is his interpretation of it, many times.

P.S. There are so many videos (with context) / images of clear and unincited
police brutality that I want to puke when I hear you deny them. I've been
compiling a list. More on this later too.

<http://i.imgur.com/GdstgFu.jpg> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHFe7vK1hyw>
<https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151648526182702>
<http://i.imgur.com/ovsvTkg.jpg>
<https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=139362532926023>
<http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-981250>
[https://twitter.com/kurttberna/status/340734448146472960/pho...](https://twitter.com/kurttberna/status/340734448146472960/photo/1)
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDnrcsrhxGg> <http://i.imgur.com/tP6EIXI.jpg>
<http://i.imgur.com/n1VWYdI.jpg>
[https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=207394002740909&set...](https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=207394002740909&set=vb.126576117362399&type=2&theater)
[http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=248465715278711&s...](http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=248465715278711&set=a.248125328646083.1073741828.247993528659263&type=1)
[http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=654306227917990&set=...](http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=654306227917990&set=vb.215491745136618&type=2&theater)

~~~
kposehn
@cup has said nothing ridiculous, he just made a point: there is a lot more to
this than meets the eye.

You're closer to the grassroots portion of it apparently, but what you are
probably missing is larger context - other groups pushing into it trying to
use the protests for their own ends.

I'm no fan of the AKP (Erdogan's party) but there is indeed more going on
here.

The closer you are to a tree, the harder it is to see the forest.

~~~
corkill
"but what you are probably missing is larger context"

I would disagree, there is no larger context than the erosion of democracy.
That is what the protests are about.

The people on the streets are not trying to push any agenda except democracy.

Other groups trying to further their own agenda is inevitable in any system
and not related (this is obviously a much more favorable story line for the
current government to tell the world).

I cannot tell if the top comment knows this, but the comment about blowing up
on social media suggest he doesn't understand it is the only way to
communicate and get the message out.

A) there is a media blackout, no television station reporting this inside
Turkey. B) Turkcell the nations largest communications provider was pressured
to disrupt communications in Istanbul (which they did)

Point being social media is the only way to communicate about things like
this, as the press are either in prison already or afraid.
<https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=3103432560875> (police attacking random
people including a woman for no reason).

Here is the democratic leaders response “There is now a menace which is called
Twitter,” Erdogan said. “The best examples of lies can be found there. To me,
social media is the worst menace to society.” (you just can't make this stuff
up).

[http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/world/2013/06/02/Erdoga...](http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/world/2013/06/02/Erdogan-
rejects-dictator-claims.html)

------
lmartel
Does IndieGoGo allow a project to end early and take the money it's gathered
so far? The 28-day funding window makes me a little skeptical.

~~~
akx
This is a Flexible Funding campaign, so yes, they'll get the money they've
gathered thus far once the campaign ends...

But now that you mention it, not sure if that extends to ending a campaign
early.

------
13b9f227ecf0
Why the heck do these people want to advertise to Americans? This is a Turkish
issue among Turks. What does Uncle Sam have to do with this? Inviting foreign
involvement and commentary seems like an obviously horrible idea to me.

Reminds me of the "color revolutions" and the Iranian protests a while ago.
You knew it was all BS when they kept trotting out so many slick people
speaking flawless English.

~~~
cema
I think they may guess, not without reason, that the US would be involved
anyway, and want more of the American opinion on their side. Makes sense?

~~~
muhuk
Sadly, it makes sense.

I only hope American's don't get too generous and try to bring democracy to
Türkiye. You know, American flavored democracy with marines and smart bombs.

~~~
ceejayoz
Given Turkey's status as a NATO member, that's exceedingly unlikely.

------
liquidise
I've never understood the rush of groups to claim they are being ignored by
Big Media. Let's try an get a pulse from major outlets...

BBC (1st article): <http://www.bbc.co.uk/>

NYT (2nd article): <http://www.nytimes.com/pages/world/index.html>

CNN (1st article): <http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/>

AlJ (2nd article): <http://www.aljazeera.com/>

MSNBC (1st article): <http://www.nbcnews.com/id/3032507/ns/world_news/>

~~~
mtgx
In Turkey...

Do you think most people in Turkey are watching BBC? They watch local media.

~~~
muhuk
That's right. Most people watch mainstream media that was airing penguin
documentaries when police was brutally attacking to peaceful protesters (there
wasn't even provocateurs amongst them then, they joined much later).

I read anecdotes that when people try to explain what's happening these
citizens display disbelief. They are possibly the same people who sold their
votes for a bag of coal:

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-6hF12n73s>
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6nPyfoyrsg>
[http://t24.com.tr/haber/akp-8-yilda-136-ton-komur-
dagitti/21...](http://t24.com.tr/haber/akp-8-yilda-136-ton-komur-
dagitti/211012) <http://www.cumhuriyet.com.tr/?hn=300702>
[http://www.birgun.net/politics_index.php?news_code=128238067...](http://www.birgun.net/politics_index.php?news_code=1282380678&year=2010&month=08&day=21)

I know the links are all Turkish, I am not sure if these issues got any
coverage in international media.

