
Privilege and Inequality in Silicon Valley - dtran
https://medium.com/@rickyyean/privilege-and-inequality-in-silicon-valley-92d455b66860#.voi2xqzg3
======
rdlecler1
I had a similar experience starting life with opportunity debt. Single parent
family whose mother had no high school education. Have ADD and dyslexia, moved
around a lot with a good part my life in subsidized housing, and never
graduated from high school. No one teaches you the basics, so that when you do
start coming into your own and taking control of your own life you are so
incredibly behind your peers socially, politically, and intellectually. I
eventually went to community college as a mature student, eventually made my
way to university, did a masters and then a PhD at Yale. Through it all I was
always one or two steps behind and so many opportunities were missed because I
didn't have money. Similarly, now as an entrepreneur I find myself being a
little more conservative because you've been through a lot of bad times
without a safety net.

~~~
josephjrobison
The main story, this comment, and many other user comments are really
interesting and human. Would love to see someone compile a series of them,
HONY style. These stories don't get talked about enough in the startup world.

~~~
bloggerden
Sorry for my ignorance but what's "HONY" style?

~~~
marianoguerra
I think "Humans of New York"
[http://www.humansofnewyork.com/](http://www.humansofnewyork.com/)

~~~
josephjrobison
Yes that's the one - pretty amazing stuff.

------
yeureka
This sounds very familiar.

When I was in University I didn't understand why some people didn't care about
grades and partied so much. When we left school and got into the real world I
understood why: they had rich parents with contacts that could get them good
jobs or seed capital for their own businesses.

I had lots of ideas and worked in a lot of startups for more than 10 years but
now the following phrase from the article describes my situation very well:

"Most of the time, potential founders who share my background tend to work at
lucrative jobs in finance or tech until they can take care of everyone in
their families before they even dream about taking more risks — if they ever
get there."

~~~
nickff
The other possibility is that going to the parties is a good use of time, and
that is where many students develop their networks. In addition to that,
signalling theory would indicate that what classes you take and how well you
do are much less important than the university you attend and the faculty you
graduate from.

~~~
peckrob
> The other possibility is that going to the parties is a good use of time,
> and that is where many students develop their networks.

This was kind of my experience. I went to university two states away from
where I grew up, knowing a grand total of one person there. I had the academic
end more or less handled, but my first semester at university was the
loneliest I've ever been in my life. I made good grades, but otherwise I was
miserable, depressed and lonely.

It's easy to meet people in high school. Most high schools are small compared
to major universities, and you have classes with those in your grade. Many of
them you've been around for years. But now you're thrown into a new setting,
with thousands of people. It's hard to make that transition from high school
friendships to college friendships.

I spent my freshman fall pretty much just going to class and straight back to
my dorm. On the weekends I would go to the football game, but that was it. The
rest of the time I watched TV or played on the Internet. It was probably the
loneliest I've ever been in my life and, as Christmas came that year I was
seriously questioning whether or not I wanted to continue at my university. I
had moved two states and five hours away, just to sit around and be lonely.

I told myself going back from Christmas if Spring semester wasn't any better I
was going to transfer back home. Well, spring rolls around and one of the guys
I'd sat next to in the intro to engineering class invited me to rush his
fraternity.

 _Whut?_ I had been pretty vehemently anti-Greek; I was a nerdy computer
science guy who liked roleplaying games and science fiction movies - not
really what I assumed "frat" material was. So my first inclination was to say
no thank you.

But I then I stopped myself. "What's the worst that could happen?" I asked
myself. "The worst that happens is I don't like it, and I've wasted a few
hours. No matter what, it beats sitting in my dorm room, in the dark,
mindlessly surfing the web."

So I did it. And it turned out to be one of the best decisions I made.

I met so many amazing, awesome people it blew my mind. The guy that ended up
being my big brother (for non-fraternity folks, think of a big brother as a
mentor) could have been my twin separated at birth - we shared so many arcane
interests ( _including_ roleplaying games and science fiction movies - we had
a chapter D&D campaign running by the end of the semester).

I was eventually initiated, and throughout the remainder of college, the
fraternity was a big part of my social life. It was instrumental in breaking
me out of my shell and grounded me in the university community. I ended up
graduating, having never again considered transferring. And I learned so many
valuable social and leadership skills thanks to being involved in the
fraternity.

Fast forward 15 years, and the people I met in the fraternity are still some
of my best and closest friends. I still do a couple of concerts a year with
group of brothers, and have ever since we were in college together. My big
brother was the best man in my wedding a few years back and I was the best man
in his wedding last year. Several other brothers were groomsmen as well.
Several brothers drove up for my daughter's baptism a couple years, and we
still go to gatherings once a year or so.

About eight years ago one of the brothers had his house burn down. We all
pulled together and filled up a pickup truck worth of supplies to get them him
and family through the tough time until insurance kicked in.

A group of four of us have a long running iMessage group that sees thousands
of messages a year, especially involving our sports programs. When I'm
watching football, I'm usually doing it with one window on the game and
another on the chat window as we follow along. It's like being with your
friends at the pub.

And it goes without saying that brothers end up getting jobs from other
brothers. I think I know people in every conceivable industry at this point
thanks to having met them at university.

Pretty much every major event of my life since I pledged, fraternity brothers
have been a part of. All because I took a risk on something I thought I might
not like but decided to try anyway. I'm glad I was wrong.

So yes, those raucous parties and silly rituals do serve a purpose. We're
social creatures by nature and it's a way of building up your social life, and
blowing off the stress of school. Universities are institutions of learning,
yes, but we're not there _just_ to learn 24/7, just like I'm not at my job now
24/7\. These things are fun, and they build up your social network.

~~~
aninhumer
>I spent my freshman fall pretty much just going to class and straight back to
my dorm. [...] one of the guys I'd sat next to in the intro to engineering
class invited me to rush his fraternity. [...] I met so many amazing, awesome
people it blew my mind.

So I find this slightly confusing, because in my experience of university, the
fact I was living in dorms already offered me the opportunities to meet people
that you're talking about. Pretty much from the day I arrived, people were sat
talking in the corridors, and everyone else was as anxious to meet new people
as I was, so I don't know how I could have avoided making friends.

That said, I do know that despite my social anxieties, I tend to be pretty
comfortable talking to people I don't know that well (if anything, more so
than people I do), so that might have made it easier than I realised.

One thing that does occur to me though, is in the UK alcohol is readily
available to students. I realise US colleges are hardly dry, but I'd imagine
it's not quite the same as the UK, where almost every student will have their
own stock of preferred drinks ready for any social occasion.

~~~
peckrob
> That said, I do know that despite my social anxieties, I tend to be pretty
> comfortable talking to people I don't know that well (if anything, more so
> than people I do), so that might have made it easier than I realised.

In retrospect, some of it is probably social anxiety.

But I think the bigger part is simply feeling a lack of connection with other
people in the dorm. Other than living together we were all leading entirely
separate lives. Different majors, different friend groups, etc. We'd see each
other in the evenings but that was pretty much it.

The size of the school (~30k students) also didn't help me - the chances of me
sharing a class with someone in my dorm were pretty low. Even big classes like
Composition, there's probably 40 different composition classes being taught at
any semester. I did have one or two people from my History class in my dorm,
but that class had 400 people in the auditorium, so not really conducive to
discussions. I was just one fish in a really, really big sea.

It was compounded by being an out-of-state student from a long way away from
home. Many of the people in the dorm with me were in-state students, many from
the same large high schools in the major cities. They came with a built-in
networks of friends, many of whom were in the same or adjacent dorms. I knew
one other person from my city at all, and he lived on the other side of
campus.

So in my particular case, I had a lot working against me. I have no problems
believing many people had a great time socializing in dorm life, but I just
couldn't develop a connection with anyone there because of the sheer magnitude
of the issues.

Which was kinda why it was so weird my friend invited me to rush. We'd sat
next together in Intro to Engineering and chatted a few times, maybe sat
together once in the cafeteria and studied for class, but not exactly what I
would have called a deep connection. It was really surprising when I was
offered that invitation.

In a fraternity, though, you are _forced_ to build that connection. It's
pretty much the entire point of the organization. If you want to be a part of
the organization, you _have_ to be a part of the brotherhood. You _have_ to
develop a connection with those in your pledge class (those who join the
fraternity the same time you do), or you drop out or get dropped out.

I started with a smaller number of people that I could get to know (there were
11 people in my pledge class, a much smaller number for me to work with). And
because we had tasks to work towards together, both as a pledge class and as
an organization, we learned to work together with each other. I can't speak
for every fraternity, but mine was super, super big on requiring us to work
together. There was only one thing we were ever asked to do as individuals.
Every single other thing we were expected to do as a class or as an entire
organization. With requirements like that, I couldn't help but get to know
people.

I'm not saying this type of thing is for everyone, but it really did work out
well for me and for everyone else in my pledge class.

> One thing that does occur to me though, is in the UK alcohol is readily
> available to students. I realise US colleges are hardly dry, but I'd imagine
> it's not quite the same as the UK, where almost every student will have
> their own stock of preferred drinks ready for any social occasion.

My school, a large state university, was actually completely dry (officially,
at least). Part of it is the drinking age in the US is 21, so only
upperclassmen are even above that level at all. But even if you were over 21,
alcohol was prohibited on campus. All the dorms, buildings and grounds were
dry.

But this was pretty widely ignored, even by the administration. Generally
speaking, as long as you weren't making an ass out of yourself or driving, you
were okay. Sophomore year I traded beers with my RA (the person in charge of
the dorm) on a pretty regular basis.

------
ginsurge
This really resonates with me, I was the first person in my family to go to
university, and my grandparents had to work multiple jobs when they migrated
from Europe in order to survive. My dad did slightly better, but both my
parents only had high school education and worked blue collar jobs.

It does make it really hard to change your mindset when you come from this
sort of background, when you've achieved more than anyone in your family and
therefore can't really talk to them about your ambitions or career objectives.

It sounds awful, but sometimes I wish I had been born into a different family,
with highly educated parents I could have amazing conversations with, who
would encourage me to achieve and grow even more.

I find I constantly have a mindset of "I'm not good enough" and it's
paralysing. I want to interview for the top tech jobs out there, like Google
or Facebook, but my brain keeps telling me I'm not good enough, it's awful.

~~~
cloverich
> with highly educated parents I could have amazing conversations with, who
> would encourage me to achieve and grow even more.... I find I constantly
> have a mindset of "I'm not good enough" and it's paralysing.

I went to Medical school and for a period of time was surrounded by people
who, for the most part, came from affluent or otherwise successful families.
My experience was the opposite of what you might have expected: I met many
people who felt like they weren't good enough, whose parents weren't
encouraging to them, and in several cases had no relationship with them
whatsoever. Which I guess is only to say, if you want to be "Good enough" you
just have to accept yourself for who you are and continuously try to be
better. If you want to apply for the top tech jobs, you should. And if you
fail, you should ask how you can improve, do so, and try again. Ultimately,
you can only ever be good enough if you try. Failure isn't a disastrous
outcome; its absolutely a part of the process of getting better.

------
__jal
I found myself nodding along the whole article.

First, let me say that I am happy where I ended up. I'm successful, enjoy my
work, and when I compare my personal income with our family income when I was
growing up, it is an absurd multiple.

We were a very poor family in a poor part of the South. I went to a top-10
small private university on a full ride, felt completely alienated and never
quite figured out how to function in that environment. I dropped out and moved
to San Francisco at what turned out to be a very good time (early 90's), and
once Netscape dropped, discovered nobody else knew what they were doing with
this web thing either, and more or less faked it until I made it.

At the same time, I have had and do have ideas that others have executed on,
that I know I could have made a go at, if only…

The if only list is long, and most of it comes back to self-imposed
limitations that I can trace back to how I grew up. Frequently it relates to
economic security, but there are other habits of thought that stop me from
even getting to worrying about that.

One big one is that I never learned to think about entrepreneurship. A big
lesson hammered into me growing up was the importance of "finding a good job",
not figuring out how to make my own.

I did start a company in my mid-30s, and we did OK, until we didn't. And that
failure (I think) had nothing to do with the habits of thought of a poor kid.
But failing in a similar way in my 20s would have left me in a position to
learn from that and try again, something I'm unlikely to make a go at 10 years
later. I do little things for side income, but those are hobbies.

So it ends up being this thing that doesn't really bother me at this point,
but does leave me to wonder what would have happened if I had picked parents
from a very different walk of life.

And I am quietly amused when people tell me how they built everything
themselves "after a seed from Dad", or "with a great connection I made through
a family friend" or similar. Those are impossible blockers for a lot of
people, even if they get over some of the habits of mind better than I did.

~~~
nugget
I've known deca-millionaire trust fund kids who ended up broke (or dead).

I've known immigrants who started with nothing and ended up fantastically
independently wealthy.

And the vast, vast majority of people who settle somewhere near the middle.

What nobody teaches you is: it's all about luck.

Below that, the fine print: the harder you work and the more you sacrifice,
the luckier you will get.

''If only'' works both ways. If only - then I would have been successful in
some way. If only - then I wouldn't have met the partner who I fell in love
with. It works both ways but people tend to overweight the negative (regret)
and underweight the positive (gratitude). All you can do (young, old, or in
between) is get up every day, be realistic about where you are and where you
want to be, and keep moving forward.

~~~
tomcam

        it's all about luck
    

Bullshit. Luck sure goes a long way, but so do working very, very hard and
smart and making course corrections and constantly doing things people say
will fail.

~~~
PhasmaFelis
99% of the time, when you do something that lots of smart people say will
fail, you fail. People look at that 1% and conclude that if you just keep
whacking your head against a brick wall, it will eventually turn into gold,
completely ignoring the combination of smarts, habits, _and_ the sheer dumb
luck that are actually behind success. But the gutters are full of ambitious
failures.

~~~
tomcam
Ambition != working hard and smart

Spoken like a critic. Not a producer. I know lots and lots of smart people who
know how to criticize but not to create.

~~~
PhasmaFelis
Yeah, that's a standard rhetorical catch-22. Virtuous people always succeed,
so anyone who doesn't succeed is by definition not virtuous--the system works!
It's the same kind of thinking as "If God doesn't answer your prayers, it's
your fault for not praying hard enough," or "Communism cannot fail, it can
only be failed."

~~~
tomcam
Nothing to do with virtue. I have seen bad people succeed with the same
techniques. Please read more carefully before you make irrelevant remarks.
This does not serve you well.

~~~
PhasmaFelis
"Virtuous" was obviously shorthand for "working very, very hard and smart and"
etc.

------
nickbauman
There's a strong thread of meritocracy in the tech community, but there is no
such thing. When you choose the clearly better developer over the other,
you're often choosing the one who had better resources growing up, not just
natural ability. The poorer developer may have had a natural advantage over
the other one, but didn't have the money to develop it as much. So you're
really just selecting for wealth all over again.

This is what's behind the achievement gap anxiety: Wise rich people don't want
to perpetuate a world where only money selects success. It's wasteful and
ultimately unsustainable.

~~~
gozur88
>There's a strong thread of meritocracy in the tech community, but there is no
such thing. When you choose the clearly better developer over the other,
you're often choosing the one who had better resources growing up, not just
natural ability.

You're using an overly restrictive definition of "merit". When you hire the
best person for the job you're hiring based on merit. How they got there isn't
really that important from your perspective as an employer. That's a
meritocracy.

~~~
poof131
So could we then say based upon your comment and the parent that a meritocracy
is antagonistic to diversity. Not trying to be argumentative, just more of a
thought exercise. If a meritocracy chooses the best, and the wealthiest tend
to have the resources and opportunity to make themselves better, then always
choosing based upon merit means favoring less diverse backgrounds.
Additionally, we tend to always view ourselves as ‘having merit.’ So we will
also be predisposed to choose people like ourselves further hindering
diversity. I personally have always favored the idea of being meritocratic,
but am also leaning more toward purely favoring diversity, not diversity of
superficial attributes, but the diversity of peoples background. I feel it
helps to expand the breadth of knowledge of the team and avoid blindspots.

~~~
gozur88
>So could we then say based upon your comment and the parent that a
meritocracy is antagonistic to diversity.

Yes, I would say that's the bias. It's human nature to allocate your resources
to give your children the best possible start in life. In poor societies that
may be as simple as feeding them when you yourself go hungry. In our society
it means scheming to get them into the best college or giving them seed money
to start a business.

I would note that making alterations to promote diversity don't change that,
either. They just distort the system such that people with resources game the
system in unproductive ways. A good example is all those "women and minority
owned" businesses that get preferential treatment in government contracting.
From what I can tell nearly all of them are headed (wink wink) by the wife of
a white guy with a relatively upper class upbringing.

------
Htsthbjig
I believe this man is confusing lots of things.

I had lived in China for more than 5 years, Boston, Japan or Korea for more
than 9 months each.

In my opinion, minimizing conflict has nothing to do with being poor, and a
lot with being Chinese educated.

On the contrary, I volunteer helping poor kids like Spanish gypsies or
Subsaharan African and they(and their parents) are ultra confident, and
spontaneous. Being open is the default thing for them.

I managed Chinese people in China and there was a world of difference between
natives and those Chinese educated overseas.

When living on the US, I was shocked to see parents cheering their kids for
the most stupid thing, when in Europe as a kid you are forced to do 4x more
effort without rewards at all(like learning multiple languages). It is just
what it is expected from you.

In Asia, this pressure over kids is even higher than in Europe.

Family is very important for Chinese almost a religion. This has advantages
and disadvantages. For innovation, it is a big disadvantage. Innovation means
taking risks, being close to your family means having to convince lots of
people those risk are worth it. Most people won't understand you and it is
very hard.

In the US, everybody is on their own, basically, nobody gives a dam, which is
great for changing the world.

~~~
vasilipupkin
Minimizing conflict is just one minor tangential point in his essay. The main
thing, which I think you might have missed, is the insane pressure of being
poor and having no fallback and constantly worrying about money. I do think
that since he hasn't been not poor growing up, he doesn't realize that the
opposite state in many ways can have its own detrimental effects on motivation

~~~
tomcam
Nailed it. Source: have successful self-made career and Asian family.

------
mchu4545
Ricky mentions the guilt at not cashing out on his Stanford degree immediately
and providing for his family.

Day-to-day, how do founders in similar positions coming from cultures with
tight-knit families address this? Especially as parents age?

------
dtran
Has anyone done a survey of the family socio-economic status of startup
founders and early employees? I'd be curious to see how many founders/early
employees are from low-income families, whether their parents graduated
college, etc. If not, I'd love to create one.

~~~
rezistik
I'd like that survey. The lower class is completely unrepresented in tech.
It's been one of the weirdest and hardest things for me to handle personally.

~~~
ryandrake
You know what's weird and uncomfortable sometimes? Going to lunch with your
co-workers and listening to them talk about the awful problems of their lives,
like how they wish their maids could come twice a week instead of every two
weeks, and how difficult it is that they have to pay [my salary * 0.5] for
their kid's private school. How worried they are about things like the stock
market and how high the property taxes on their million dollar homes are.
Total culture shock, not coming from money.

~~~
WalterBright
My dad returned from combat in WW2 where 80% of his group were casualties and
he expected to die in combat. He said he was amused at the triviality of
everyday concerns. "What's your problem, you're not going to die tomorrow!"

And really, if you're able-bodied and able-minded and nobody is trying to
kill/maim/imprison you, then life is good. I went to retrieve the mail this
morning, and was greeted with a bright blue sky, and an eagle sitting on top
of a nearby doug fir tree giving me the eye. Pretty damn awesome to be alive.

~~~
AndrewKemendo
There are a lot of us out there with similar backgrounds, yet when you tell
people that any day that you aren't being shot at, or blown up or starving is
a good day, they look at you like you are crazy.

~~~
busterarm
I had to learn to just not share things about my life with coworkers. It's
very alienating though.

This is actually a bond that I find I have with many people I know who grew up
here in New York and work with mostly transplants (I'm not bashing
transplants...).

I know a lot of people across a wide class divide. I've done some interesting
stuff and I've also been in scary/dangerous situations that seem normal to me.
The times I've mentioned them I've seen people go wide-eyed and get very
uncomfortable.

I really hate the fact that I feel like I'm walking on egg shells whenever I'm
not talking exclusively about work with them.

------
ianphughes
What was that axiom that Red Auerbach was attributed with? "You can't teach
height." Ricky demonstrated he was hungry to learn and succeed at a very early
age, a quality that will always bring some level of success through life: "I
had to bring my dad to the office the next day and told him to pretend to say
some words in Mandarin while I just demanded that I get put in an honors-level
English class."

How do you identify those who are underprivileged, but carry that quality too?
It can be very difficult to identify.

------
nish1500
I grew up other side of the world, amazing by what I heard in the news - that
there existed a world beyond mine where smart people with smart ideas built
great companies overnight. I am smart. I have merit. I dropped out at 19,
taught my self how to code, and built a 6-figure business with my projects
online. I want to learn more.

I got turned down by 15+ companies and startups in the past few weeks because
they couldn't sponsor my work visa. This is Canada.

The USA? Being a dropout makes me ineligible for any US work visa.

So much for merit.

~~~
Inthenameofmine
Have you looked into remote jobs? Honestly, moving to the US is overrated. I'm
staying in a developing country myself. Get 50% of a US salary, live on the
other aide of the world, live a laid back and cheap life.

~~~
nish1500
I want more than a laid-back life. I already make more than an SF-salary. The
opportunities to grow and learn are very little in a developing country. I've
learnt more from 2 months spent in SF than I did 5 years in my country.

------
mempko
Excellent post. But I feel that we need to go beyond talking about what we can
personally do to improve our situation. Either the vast majority of people are
ill-adapted for success, or something else is going on. I think we should go
beyond the classic argument "If we just all recycle, the world will..." Or "If
we all buy electric cars, global warm....".

This post had some of that individualistic attitude to a much broader and
obviously systemic problem.

------
forrestthewoods
As someone who grew up in the exceptionally poor, rural South I'm not sure
what to take away. I don't know anyone who was able to go to Stanford despite
bad grades in high school. That's an enviable luxury.

------
Karunamon
Great read.

I've become allergic to words like "privilege" as they usually are seen in the
company of ill-thought-out and grandiose/insulting/wrong proclamations about
How Things Should Be Done,

..but this is none of that - it's an honest look and deep analysis of
someone's experience.

And knowing how important upbringing is, and the sheer (almost superhuman)
tenacity the author had to go through to even partially overcome the
(poisonous? non-optimum?) mindset that was completely a result of things out
of their control...

what the heck is everyone else supposed to do? How does society do right by
people like this? Overall, we're pretty horrible at dealing with things that
are as subtle as mindset.

~~~
Frondo
To be honest, one thing you can do is retrain yourself to be un-allergic to
words like "privilege", and see their use as the consequence of a lot of
people's suffering systemic unfairness and injustice.

When I see that word, "privilege," especially tied to attacks on
white/male/hetero/whatever, my response isn't "oh jeez, not that
again".....it's "yeah, that _is_ a problem, and I really wish the other white
male hetero folks in the room could see it and not just roll their eyes".

It sounds like you want to be an ally, and that's great. I think the hardest
part is probably recognizing that when people talk about privilege, it's
really not personal, it really isn't about you, even though you're a
beneficiary of it every day. Knowing about systemic injustice and doing
nothing/remaining silent, though, that's pretty callous, and knowing about
systemic injustice and perpetuating it, well, then it would be about you.

~~~
67726e
Or you could stop using the fact that someone is white, male, or straight as
some kind of attack, insult, or excuse.

There are certainly issues in society, real problems but I'm tired of hearing
it. Somehow all of my hardships in life are reduced to nothing, because I'm
"privileged".

~~~
paulv
"...if you think having privilege means that you’re a bad person, or that you
haven’t had struggles, or that you haven’t worked hard for what you have –
then I can totally feel why you might be frustrated. If that were the case,
then yes, it’d be completely unfair of me to claim that all white people or
straight people or men or people of any other dominant group are living easy
off their unearned privileges.

But having privilege doesn’t mean any of those things."

Maisha Z. Johnson, [http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/07/what-privilege-really-
me...](http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/07/what-privilege-really-means/)

~~~
BurningFrog
That's the formal definition, used when being scrutinized. The angrier one is
far more common in real life debate.

[http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/07/social-justice-and-
word...](http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/07/social-justice-and-words-words-
words/)

~~~
mfringel
Does it being said in anger make it any less applicable?

~~~
jschwartzi
It's usually used to quash disagreements. As in "check your privilege." It's
often used as a way to categorically exclude people from a discussion, and
this sense is the "angry" sense. So yes, it's less applicable because it's
used as a shortcut to avoid forming a real understanding with someone else.

------
ryanwitt112
interesting take. I'd like to hear what PG and others think. Coming from a
middle class background, I can relate a bit and see-observationally-the other
components to what Ricky's calling "mindset inequality". It's almost like "new
money" vs folks that have bigger dollars to spend growing up. I know a lot of
friends that have deeply entrenched psychological elements they need to
overcome before reaching that "next level" that were engrained because of
their upbringing. And, to Ricky's post, it's sometimes more of a challenge
than the monetary differentials.

~~~
jtolmar
My parents started out very poor and climbed into the middle class by the time
I got to high school. The extended family is still poor, so I'm still exposed
to how they think about money. I think the mindsets can break down into three
levels, but not cleanly.

Poor: You may have to make decisions about which bills to pay or which needs
to meet, and being able to pay all your bills and eat is considered a moral
virtue. Money is naturally transient, because your obligations have similar
weight to your income, and having excess money in your bank account is weird,
unnatural to the point that your instinct is to spend it before it goes away.
If you use a budget, line-items are on the size of a grocery trip. You're more
likely to budget small purchases than large purchases. If you are trying to
build savings, putting money into a savings account is another bill.

Middle class: Your bank account is the intermediary between your bills and
income, with a mean and a natural trajectory. If your account's trajectory is
positive, your natural instinct is to spend it, either on better lifestyle or
a large purchase, very occasionally savings. If you have a budget, components
are like "monthly food" and you deal with going over-budget by cutting a few
more corners next month. Savings are still another bill. Putting the right
amount into your savings account to retire in 40 years is a moral obligation.

Capital class: Interest on your earnings is your primary source of income.
Your rate of spending must be lower than the rate you earn interest; to do
otherwise is dipping into capital, which is morally wrong. Any interest you
don't plan to spend is folded back into your capital, giving you a small,
permanent raise. I don't understand this class too well because I'm still
working on entering it.

~~~
bbcbasic
I am planning a transition from middle class to capital class, which will take
10-20 years and require investing in real estate.

Real estate is a great investment (at least in Australia) because it allows
you to get access to larger amounts of credit to purchase assets which will
generally go up in value over time because of the policies of central banks to
target inflation. In addition buying in the right location will insure that on
top of location future scarcity will add more value to the investments.

It is also super transparent compared to stocks, where you don't really know
what is going on inside a company, land is land and all the data you need to
assess the investment is available. And you can control the asset (think
renovations, rebuilds, subdivisions etc.) so there is more you can do compared
to the stock (buy, and perhaps short the similar stocks)

The downside to real estate is you have to be a little bit patient. Did I
mention 20 years? :-)

~~~
jtolmar
I've heard that being too keen on real estate is a common pitfall for middle
class investors. Between that and personal bias, I'm avoiding it (at least
directly).

My portfolio is primarily stocks, which I find surprisingly easy to work with.
You just pick well-run companies in fields you understand, ignore financial
news, and wait. I should be capable of living off interest in four years.

~~~
dba7dba
_I 've heard that being too keen on real estate is a common pitfall for middle
class investors._

I'm in US but I agree. I'm not old enough yet (I hope) but most of friends'
parents lost all they had later in their life and from what I heard they were
heavily into real estate. Some owned few houses and others worked as realtor.

For those that owned houses, they were extended too thinly and couldn't sell
fast enough to cover mounting interest and cost when economy tanked, resulting
in bankruptcy.

------
bobby_9x
"but building and sustaining a company that is “designed to grow fast” is
especially hard if you grew up desperately poor"

Most people don't have the money or resources to build a company like this,
which is why we have VC. They know you are in a desperate situation and
exchange the money that you need for a % of the company.

The better thing to do is choose a solid business idea that can be built
slowly and at a certain point, put money you make from this venture into an
idea that needs more capital to succeed.

------
tomcam
Made me cry. Much of it rang true. Story has similarities except about 1/5th
as traumatic and am a white dude who grew up here. Have done well financially
but have a compromised home situation traceable to some of the same causes.

------
miiiiiike
An old friend and I were talking a few weeks ago and I smiled when he said "We
were so poor growing up we didn't even realize we were poor." And we didn't,
we were so poor we couldn't even pay attention. It's was good tho. It's still
easy for me to live in a tiny apartment and exist on a steady diet of
eggs'n'oatmeal, apples, and frozen chicken bought in bulk.

------
decisiveness
There might be many more success stories if children growing up closer to the
poverty line were able to do so in more nourishing environments. However,
discouragement, lack of confidence, anxiety are things not restricted to any
racial or economic background. Not having a silver spoon is in many ways a
better environment in which to be raised.

The OP does not say that his parents didn't show him any love, which is more
important for the development of a person than any economic status. Many of
the other struggles might be used as fuel for building positive character
traits, unless one doesn't let it.

Having read through the post, it doesn't appear that he's actually arrived at
a valid point, and is just trying to brand himself as being underprivileged
through the telling of his life story, which has turned out to be successful
by most standards. He uses the argument that "mindset inequality" gave him a
chip on his shoulder so he was able to succeed, and therefore others fail
because of it, which seems contradictory.

------
jmspring
I was soft in my earlier comment, but fine taking a rep hit.

This is not the only post recently where the topic is "oh golly gee, look at
the hardship I went through to get through college and the found something."

It's a millennial post, and there have been many of them.

Going through college is a challenge ... Having to work or be responsible
during such sucks (I interned at Borland as well as worked for an astronomical
research company).

Post college, more than a few have to deal with life obligations that come up.

Our profession certainly offers a bit of a cushion and flexibility, but we
have to manage that and our obligations.

I don't see someone here whining about having to support their parents due to
the last downturn or the many other personal decisions made.

The blog would have been better written as challenges met and overcome and
left out the for lack of tact whiny bits...

Yes, coming from poverty has challenges, and friends in such stretched into
their late 20s to complete a degree...but perspective and awareness of the
wider world is needed... Not another post about personal insecurities..

------
dsfyu404ed
He conspicuously missed the part where time spent working a job, studying and
generally acting like a responsible adult is time not spent networking.

The "poor" kids also tend to find each other at college and over the first few
semesters form separate networks from the rich kids. People tend to want to
hang out with people who are similar to them. One group goes out partying
together, the other sits in a dorm room listening to music and drinking a $15
handle. Their friend groups don't overlap over much.

The poor kids tend to build networks where the members personal skills and
resources they bring to the table in the present are important (or that was my
observation). I guess when you can't throw money at a problem knowing who's
the IT guy and the car guy becomes more important.

------
zanewill9
Excellent post. We like to think sometimes the underdog wins but sadly,
success is typically given to those that were born with it. The unfortunate
part to me is the credit they were given as if they were amazing, not born
lucky.

------
jcoffland
My favorite line:

> Compare that level of confidence to a kid with successful parents who’d say
> something along the lines of “If you can believe it, you can achieve it!”
> Now imagine walking into a VC office having to compete with that kid. He’s
> so convinced that he’s going to change the world, and that’s going to show
> in his pitch.

I enjoyed this article a lot but clearly this guy also made some of his own
hardships. Going on ski trips just to fit in and then running out of money is
incompatible with the image of a frugal poor kid.

~~~
dba7dba
Coming from a similar background like the original poster, I agree with him.

And no I didn't run out of money while in college because I went on ski trips.
I lived on student loan and credit card just to pay for food and not much
else. My parents couldn't send me much money. And yes I worked to earn money
while in college, which doesn't help with improving grade. And of course the
peers with no money worry can pick and choose non-paying internships or go do
something that adds to their resume.

Growing up poor (I mean poor) damages one's psyche that others just don't
understand. The degree of severity may vary but combine teen years + seeing
parent(s) struggle with money everyday, you have a recipe for a hurt in your
heart that lasts your life time that others just don't understand. And this
'hurt' is more noticeable when you know your peers around you are not
suffering same issue.

And no I don't advocate for a national program to eradicate poverty.

------
return0
> We think this is the reason why poor founders tend not to be successful.

The essay by PG actually meant that there are no poor founders at all. It
would be interesting to have statistics on whether poor founders fail more, or
don't even get a chance to try at all. I have reasons to believe that the rare
poor person is more motivated and determined than the average groomed-to-be
middle class entrepreneur, and there are plenty of cases of dirt-poor persons
becoming millionaires.

------
frodik
It is a good thing that privilege is becoming a topic in these circles. It's
fascinating to see how many people still try to present it as looking for
excuses. Perhaps because they just don't understand what it really is. Or they
need to validate their success by convincing everyone that it is only their
hard work that matters and nothing else. Also, beware of survival bias. We
don't exactly get to hear about the stories without a happy end here.

------
peter303
Im sorry, but if you graduate from Stanford you start near the top of the
opportunity heap. Maybe people arent satisified with what they have and want
more.

~~~
dang
That seems uncharitable. Going to a prominent school is a big boost—would
anyone deny that?—but it doesn't cancel years of personal or family trauma, or
economic or social adversity like the poverty the article is talking about.
Indeed the article is all about how those things persist and continue to
affect one at depth. If you'd read it with empathy, I think you'd agree, or at
least phrase your criticism differently.

------
ca98am79
There are a lot of advantages growing up poor, though, too. Learning how to
work hard early on, etc.. My parents do not understand how to manage money
very well, and they constantly struggled when I was growing up, and continue
to do so. But this forced me to learn a better way and helped me in my life.

Also growing up poor gives you an advantage in terms of risk, because you know
the worst that will happen is that you will just be poor like you were when
you grew up. Once you've been poor, it isn't as scary. I think many rich
friends have a nightmarish fear about it and are risk-averse because of this.

There is a lot of guilt, though. I care about my family and want to help them,
but giving them money doesn't work - it is wasted. So they remain forever poor
and I have money, and I feel bad about it.

------
bluishgreen
Paul Graham is my one of my biggest programming heroes. He single-handedly
changed the way I think about and do programming about a decade back, and I am
eternally grateful for it. One of the biggest lessons I got from him is
"succinctness is power". That essay was a game changer both in terms of the
math work and the programming work I do.

Here is one instance where that powerful way of thinking runs head on into a
stone wall. He said "few successful founders grew up desperately poor" and
moved on. Succinct. yes, but not powerful. This piece took a couple thousand
words to say the same one succinct thing that PG said, and nails it in terms
of the empathy it generates and the power with which it communicates. While
PGs writing in this issue comes out as aspie. This is the lesson he needs to
take from that latest article and the Internet's reaction, and not that “Life
is short” and totally miss the point.

Narrativity and Authenticity and Poetry and Verbosity is power! (when dealing
with humans).

------
dba7dba
This story really made me reflect on my own similar past. Growing up poor in
US as son of immigrant family and somehow getting into a nationally well known
college (public though), I was shocked to see things that I had never known
about.

The shock came from seeing how I lacked culture/experience/skills/confidence
others had. And these others had grown up in more stable environments with
either some or quite a bit of money.

I didn't know how to play any instrument. I wouldn't say everyone I knew in
college played an instrument since I wasn't at Standford :) but still it was
obvious to me I LACKED the soft skills my peers had.

I had not done many things as a teenager that are possible only when you grow
up in a family with some means. And this weakened already not so robust
confidence in myself, resulting in a mostly downward spiral as far as
confidence in myself.

You see growing up with money buys you a lot of soft skill that helps you
later.

I'm not bitter though. It is what it is. I try to be thankful for what I've
had so far.

------
tn13
As an Indian immigrant when I see people complaining about Privilege and
Inequality in SV (and in America) I feel like laughing.

I lived in a society where everyone was almost the same, similar economic
status, similar privilege etc. etc. Life sucked. I decided to move out to be
among the top 10% instead of one of the 100%. I eventually ended up in SV.

This place is awesome and the very reason I am here is because I can be in the
top 10%. I dont want to be equal but I seek privileged, extra-ordinary wealth
and stuff that most others can not afford. I think it is an amazing thing that
places like SV exist. If you somehow take out that incentive I think I will
move somewhere else. Of course I would be moving out of California sooner or
later given the taxes.

~~~
neilk
Seriously? What caste did your family belong to?

I'm allowed to ask these questions; the Indian side of my family are Brahmins,
and boy does it show! Most of us walked straight from the
lawyer/doctor/accountant/businessperson class in India into the
lawyer/doctor/accountant/businessperson class in the USA and Canada.

Sure things were difficult, but most of us had huge advantages.

~~~
refurb
I'm curious, why would your caste matter in the US?

~~~
kelukelugames
Because classism is a thing. So is legacy of privilege. Literally all of my
Indian co workers have been Brahmin.

~~~
walshemj
Agree I know one of the MPs in the UK who help get caste discrimination added
to the discrimination laws.

~~~
tn13
This is mostly a Christian missionary driven attempts to marginalize Hindus
even further by painting them as evil. From the sense I get it wont go
anywhere.

~~~
walshemj
Err what re you smoking? it was Asian MP's that piloted the bill through
parliament.

~~~
tn13
Yup they are the agents of missionaries in their countries. Look at Bobby
Jindal he is asian per say but in reality a hard core christian.

------
codingsaints
This is a great article. I'm more of a reader than a co tributor through these
articles. I just had to comment on a great, positive post. It makes me want to
provide more positive feedback to others to hopefully keep them going.

------
zmitri
What an excellent post. Respect.

------
lifeisstillgood
One thing striking me was how as s child the author had the "common"
responsibility of dealing with landlords bills etc for the family.

It may not be something a startup can solve but "administrivia as a service"
\- some means of connecting families who need with someone able to actually
advise and not be taken advantage of

In the uk we have a volunteer service called citizens advice bureau - I am
thinking something like this on tap might be beneficial in ways hard to
quantify

?

------
timewarrior
tldr; In spite of motivation, talent and hard work; financial situation and
immigration (in my case) play a big role in your entrepreneurship journey.

Excellent article by the writer. Apologies for the long post, however hope it
is helpful for someone in similar situation. I can relate to many things that
he has faced and feel incredibly lucky to not have faced some things that he
had to.

I grew up in a small town in a poor family in India as eldest of four
siblings. Our monthly budget was 20 dollars and things were really tight.
However my dad worked really hard 16 hours every day and made sure that my
studies do not get hindered. He told me every single day that with hard work I
can achieve anything that I can dream of.

I got into IIT Bombay (one of the most prestigious colleges in India). However
it was obvious to me, that I need to get a decent paying job right after
school to support siblings and my dad who couldn't do 16 hours any more.

It took my the next 8 years working for others, to save enough to pay for the
studies and marriage of me and my siblings and to help my dad retire.

During these 8 years, I built and ran the biggest social network to come of of
India. Apart from this also built something which is now the Twilio of India.
I was also the part of the team which built the current mobile offering at
LinkedIn.

If I had financial stability, I would have started working on mine own
ventures 3 years into my career. But it took 5 more years. As soon as I had
financial stability, I quit LinkedIn (with 2.5 years of stock unvested) to
start a company.

I started a company, where we had incredible opportunities. We built something
like Slack for consumers around the same time as Slack. However, being on H1
visa, I was a minority stake holder in the company. And it is a bad situation
to be in, if your traction is not already proven. It made sense to exit the
company, so we sold it to Dropbox in an acqui-hire.

Dropbox treated me really well. I met some of the smartest people I have ever
met over there and it can be a great place to work for many people. However, I
soon realized that it wasn't a good fit for me. Such companies are very top
driven, there is little creative freedom, and most of the work is cleaning up
the tangled code developed over 7-8 years. So I quit Dropbox after an year.

Now I am in a job that gives me more creative freedom and I am pretty happy on
that front. Meanwhile, I have been sole advisor for a few companies over the
past 2-3 years and they are all profitable and didn't need to raise any money.
The entrepreneur in me, keeps me raring to go and start another company.
However, because I am on H1 visa, I do not want build another company with
minority stake at formation (USCIS rules). To fix this, I would need to get a
Green Card. However if you are from India, it will take you 8-10 years to get
a Green Card in EB-2.

So the next steps are either move from US, or find a way to get a Green Card
on EB-1. If anyone knows any good immigration lawyers, please help introduce.

However, related to the original post. In spite of motivation, talent and hard
work; financial situation and immigration (in my case) play a big role in your
entrepreneurship journey.

~~~
dtran
Ricky's co-founder here. Loved reading about your story-- found it by ctrl-f-
ing your name after seeing your comment above :)

------
erichmond
Props for writing this. Often times I want to tell my (different but similar)
story, but never do. I don't know why. It probably has to do with a number of
the points you make in the article, so you are a couple steps ahead of me.

------
jdenning
Forgive me for being a bit sappy here, but this post, and the discussions that
it inspired here are _absolute gold_!

It's certainly not the first time I've thought about this topic, but for
whatever reason, the OP and much of the discussion is resonating very deeply
for me (and apparently for a lot of folks). IMHO, this is some of the most
productive discussion about privilege and opportunity that's ever appeared on
the internet; for the most part, this discussion has avoided the sort of
aggravated competition (i.e. pissing contests) and judgements that generally
arise out of internet discussions of privilege. In place of those nastier
(albeit very human) responses, this thread is full of empathy, support, and
offers of help.

I'm very proud of our little community here today.

I'm planning on writing a more detailed post in a few days after collecting my
thoughts a bit more, but I'd like to share some half-formed ideas which this
post has inspired (comments and criticisms are very welcome!):

1) Part of what's awesome about this discussion is that it seems to have
enabled a bit of ad-hoc group therapy. I think it's very helpful for folks who
are facing these hurdles to realize they are not alone; while everyone's
situation is unique, it's great that people have been acknowledging
similarities in their stories, rather than arguing about the differences. We
should try to do more of this (with other contentious topics as well)!

2) As several people have suggested, I believe that collecting these stories
could potentially help a lot of people. I'm totally down to build and host a
site towards that end - would anyone be interested in sharing their stories in
that sort of venue?

3) While the specific issues that people have had to deal with are different,
there seems to be some common 'flavors' that many have experienced: a) Socio-
economic disparity causing an aversion to risk later in life b) Lack of
confidence in oneself which adds an additional handicap compared to more self-
confident people, likely resulting in missed opportunities (you can't win if
you don't play vs you can't _lose_ if you don't play); impostor syndrome. c)
Lack of connections, again likely resulting in missed opportunities and
increased difficulty in building new things/finding a job/etc. d) Disparity in
access to knowledge that greatly improves chances of success (e.g. importance
of SAT scores to college admissions; efficient resource management; interview
skills)

Improving the situation in (a) seems to be what the world at large is most
interested in. Unfortunately, it's a difficult, heavily politicized, and
therefore divisive issue. By contrast (b), (c), and (d) seem like problems
that we could really improve, at least within our own community.

For example, someone might have a harder time getting the type of (tech) job
that they want due to a lack of personal connections (it can be really hard to
get your foot in the door), however, it's likely that the personal connections
they need are actually visiting this site every day. While we obviously can't
just start providing references for total strangers, how much effort would it
be to spend a few hours corresponding with someone and vetting their skills to
see if you feel comfortable in recommending them? (I'll put my money where my
mouth is on this one - if anyone feels like they'd be a good fit at Cloudera,
let's talk! EDIT: just to be clear, I don't really have any hiring authority,
but I'm happy to talk to anyone, and potentially help with a recommendation)

Likewise, it seems that (b) could be improved for a lot of people with simple
communication - impostor syndrome is very common in tech, so I assume that a
lot of people here have advice on the subject, or just an
empathetic/sympathetic ear.

Regarding (d), this type of information is all likely available already on the
internet, but perhaps it could be more usefully compiled for this particular
case, minimizing the number of unknown unknowns? What about a thread (like
"Who's Hiring") listing offers for mentorship ("Who Needs a Mentor?") ?

I dunno, am I just being overly optimistic here? It seems to me there's a lot
of low-hanging fruit here, if some of us are willing to dedicate a bit of time
to it.

More ideas? Criticisms?

------
kkajanaku
This article was very real, and I can’t help but identify with Ricky, and
other stories I’ve read on here, but it’s not just in SV, it’s
entrepreneurship in general, I thought I’d share my story as well:

I was born in Albania, a small, poor, European country with a GDP comparable
to Zimbabwe, Namibia, or Sudan. That same year marked the fall of it's
isolated strain of communism, and Albania's borders were opened for the first
time since WW2. In the late 90s, after the collapse of its economy and ponzi
schemes, social unrest reached its height following the violent murder of
peaceful protesters by the government and police. This sparked an uprising and
the government was toppled. The police and national guard deserted, leaving
armories open, then looted by militia, and criminal gangs, with factions
fighting in the streets to take control. My parents moved our beds to the
hallway of our small apartment as there were no windows, and my little sister
and I had to stay quiet so no one would hear we were there. After a UN
operation, the government was restored, and the situation was relatively calm.
Sometime that following summer, my dad found out about a US green card
lottery, filled out an application form, and because he was in a hurry, handed
it to a random stranger waiting in line to submit it for him. He then forgot
about it, until a year later, when we got a letter telling us that we had won.
My parent's weren't terribly off in Albania, they were comfortable, their
friends, families were there, they had great jobs, and the future looked
promising. But having just gone through that rebellion, then the Yugoslav Wars
to the north trickling across the border, and the allure of the American
Dream, they decided it would be best for my sister and I.

We moved to Philadelphia in 2000, in a working class neighborhood, with a few
suitcases and not one word of English. My parents took on multiple jobs, their
Albanian communist degrees were obviously not recognized in the US, so my dad,
once a doctor, is still working maintenance, and shoveling snow in the East
Coast, as I write this. Like Ricky said, and like all immigrant kids, my
family depended on me to learn english and deal with translation, and
everything in between. 5 years later when we became citizens, and received our
passports, my parents knew more about American History than was taught in my
inner-city high school.

My parents are incredibly supportive, but they moved to the US in their 40s,
they weren’t familiar with the language, culture, and even more importantly
capitalism. Apart from the classic model of education, they weren’t familiar
with the tools required to be successful in such a strange place like this.
But with their meager wages they were happy to support my hobbies, buy me lots
of books, and a computer with internet access which taught me much more than
my inner city schools.

Eventually I got a college degree, then went on to do a dual-masters in design
and engineering at the Royal College of Art and Imperial College in London. I
even got to go to Tokyo and work for Sony, while studying there. I graduated
this past summer, and then launched my final group project as a startup in
London with my friends, two English, Oxford educated engineers, and a Spanish
designer/engineer who’s father is the president of one of the largest
companies in the world.

Then reality sank in, I had to leave, I can’t be an entrepreneur just yet, and
I moved to SV to find a high paying job in tech for the next 5-10 years, so
that I can: a. afford to pay rent b. pay off my educational loans c. pay off
my parent’s home d. help my sister pay for her education e. send some money
home because my dad is getting too old to shovel snow

------
marincounty
I looked through your past posts, and you are legit!

I liked to that you went to a community college. I too screwed up in high
school. I didn't even know why people were taking another test--the SAT. That
said, I cleaned up my act in my senior year, but it was too late.

Everything, and a lot more, that I missed in high school, I made up for in two
semesters at community college.

If anyone in high school is reading this, and thinking, "I wish I could do it
over?". You can! I had a great time at my community college. I saved a lot of
money, and met some really wonderful people. The teachers really seemed to
care. I didn't find that at the four year school, or even my professional
school.

Just make sure to transfer, and get that four year degree. So many people
don't transfer to a four year university, or even get the associate degree.
Yes, so much of college is absolute bull shit, but degrees are still valued in
a lot of professions. It's changing though, and I couldn't be happier. British
companies are taking the lead. I know at Penguin books; HR isn't even allowed
to know if you went to college, or not. You are hired on your experience, and
maybe a test? The way it should be.

~~~
dang
We detached this comment from
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10956322](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10956322)
and marked it off-topic.

~~~
nitrogen
I'm just a random reader of HN, but I'm curious here: was that comment edited
after it was moved? As it reads now it doesn't seem far outside the tone of
the rest of the thread. As always when I ask such things, I ask because I want
to know what I'm missing, so I can see it in the future and/or avoid making
similar mistakes myself.

------
namenotrequired
Finally someone who talks about the consequences of economic inequality. PG
seemed to think all that mattered is the causes.

~~~
haberman
It's frustrating, not a single critique I've seen of PG's essay (including
this one) seem to understand what he is actually saying.

This essay _supports_ PG's point, it doesn't contradict it. PG's essay calls
out "kids with no chance of reaching their potential" as "very bad" aspect of
inequality in the fourth paragraph!

What essay did you read?

~~~
mikestew
_It 's frustrating, not a single critique I've seen of PG's essay (including
this one) seem to understand what he is actually saying._

It's time to start considering that either PG made his point poorly, or that
maybe you're the one that didn't understand it. I don't know what other
reasonable options there are.

~~~
haberman
If by "PG made his point poorly" you mean "PG didn't communicate in a way that
was misunderstanding-proof", I can agree with you. Inequality is an
emotionally-charged subject that is prone to misunderstanding. I think PG
underestimated how thoroughly the intellectual basis of his argument would be
missed once he uttered the words "I've been helping to increase economic
inequality."

Most of the critiques of PG accuse him of not caring about poor people. And
yet his essay specifically attacks poverty and lack of social mobility:

> Let's attack poverty, and if necessary damage wealth in the process. That's
> much more likely to work than attacking wealth in the hope that you will
> thereby fix poverty.

~~~
pavornyoh
_I think PG underestimated how thoroughly the intellectual basis of his
argument would be missed once he uttered the words "I've been helping to
increase economic inequality." Most of the critiques of PG accuse him of not
caring about poor people. And yet his essay specifically attacks poverty and
lack of social mobility:_

I have to agree with you. I am actually surprised PG tried to even write a
second essay to explain the first one and some people still didn't understand
it and it led me to this conclusion and points me to Dale Carnegie's " You
can't win an argument"..

 _Nine times out of ten, an argument ends with each of the contestants more
firmly convinced than ever that he is absolutely right.

You can’t win an argument. You can’t because if you lose it, you lose it; and
if you win it, you lose it. Why? Well, suppose you triumph over the other man
and shoot his argument full of holes and prove that he is non compos mentis.
Then what? You will feel fine. But what about him? You have made him feel
inferior. You have hurt his pride. He will resent your triumph. And -

"A man convinced against his will

"Is of the same opinion still."_

~~~
haberman
Agreed. People are downvoting my other comments in this thread too -- on a
visceral level, people seem to really want to believe that PG doesn't care
about poor people.

------
ryandrake
"I'm a self made millionaire [0]"

[0] - Apart from the safe suburban upper class childhood, the prep school and
Harvard education my parents paid for, the job at Goldman Sachs my uncle got
me straight out of school, and the finance network from that experience that
eventually helped me with my first funding rounds, but yea, besides all that
I'm TOTALLY SELF MADE!

~~~
dang
We detached this subthread from
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10956699](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10956699)
and marked it off-topic.

------
BurningFrog
> No one teaches you the basics

Room for a startup/free service that does that!

~~~
knowaveragejoe
It's called the Internet. The problem is that people generally don't know what
to search for, if they even know they should be learning more about some facet
of modern life.

~~~
CamatHN
This is a ridiculous comment. Certain ways of behaviour, certain nuances,
cannot accurately or reliably be picked up through reading online, only
through interactions.

~~~
brandmeyer
Reading about a topic involving social interaction can definitely serve as a
first step to raise awareness of why you're socially awkward. I'm only
slightly ashamed to admit that the Good Guy Greg and Good Girl Gina image
macros were a source of basic social enlightenment for me. Once your eyes have
been opened you can start to improve yourself by paying attention to those
interactions when they happen.

~~~
NhanH
"Socially awkward" seems to be a loaded term in your use case. If you are
"socially shy", then yes reading would help. But in the case you're not
socially awkward in your natural environment (ie you just lived in a different
culture), the nuisances are impossible to learn unless you encountered it.
Just think of it as a different culture, no East Asian will come to the US
without fucking up something small or big a few times, and vice versa. Same
for people of different classes.

~~~
tbrownaw
_impossible to learn unless you encountered it_

Why? How can there be such a thing? What is there that prevents someone from
recording what they encountered and learned, and passing that knowledge on to
others?

~~~
NhanH
I don't think the nuance can be conveyed effectively for many reasons (you
don't even know something is nuance when you're used to it). But regardless,
remember all the jokes about how someone meets their SO's parents for the
first time, preparing to not mess anything up, being told everything that
needed to be avoid, and end up doing it all wrong? It's similar to that. You
actually need practice.

~~~
brandmeyer
> You actually need practice.

I don't think anyone's disagreeing with you regarding the need for practice.
Reading, Discussion, and Practice are all part of a balanced education, on
_any_ topic. I'm objecting to the notion that there are topics for which the
written word is useless.

