

Computer Science Graduates are the Least Employable in the UK - sean-duffy
http://thenextweb.com/uk/2010/07/02/the-least-employable-graduates-in-the-uk-computer-science-graduates/

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ig1
I used to run a university comparison site largely based upon HESA data so I
have a reasonable level of expertise in this field.

The data is hugely flawed, primarily because under the title of "Computer
Science" they're aggregating together all technology related degree. So it
includes subjects like "Game Design" and "Multimedia" which have very low
employability which brings down the average substantially.

There's also a strong correlation between university quality and employment
rate. At the top CS departments employment is often in the high 90s.

I actually wrote to the government minister responsible for higher education
(David Willets) on this precise issue expressing my concern that the poor
classification of subjects was resulting in misleading news coverage which in
turn would scare much-needed students away from studying Computer Science.

Here's the reply I got:

[https://dl.dropbox.com/u/11248954/243427%20Signed%20letter%2...](https://dl.dropbox.com/u/11248954/243427%20Signed%20letter%20to%20Imran%20Ghory.pdf)

(apologies for it being in PDF)

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Eliezer
I wonder if this is due to graduating people who can't code Fizzbuzz.

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Aaronneyer
My thoughts exactly. Most schools teach Computer Science, very few schools
teach you how to actually program. People have to learn that on their own, and
many people don't, and as a result, aren't able to actually program.

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kleiba
That's because Computer Science != Programming.

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rorrr
I'd say computer science should contain programming. Pure theory is for
mathematicians.

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mvc
The problem for UK devs is that everything is so London centric. I bet there's
lots of open positions there and lots of talented but unemployed (or
underpaid) developers in Liverpool, Newcastle and Glasgow. I used to be one of
them until I moved.

I've seen attempts to try and create a UK equivalent of "Silicon Valley".
Where do they put it? London!!

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simonh
Frankly, any attempt to put it anywhere else would just end up with a split
between the anointed location and London. There's already a strong telecoms
presence in west London along with a fair few IT companies anyway. When you
have a genuine choice then fine, choose another region, but when the choice
has already essentially been made by the market, why introduce potentially
damaging artificial distortions to try and fight it?

Having said that, Cambridge is sort of it's own little world of specialist IT
outfits but it just doesn't have the scale to become much more than it already
is, or to develop synergies with other industries.

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mickeyp
The other issue with Cambridge is that they think they can get away with
paying people -- senior people -- £35,000 a year\ _. Even if you hate London
you're better off contracting in the midlands where you can probably get
£350/day if you're not completely hopeless.

\_ based roughly on my experience investigating the job market there a few
years ago.

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crntaylor
I know developers with 3-5 years experience in Cambridge earning significantly
more than that. Redgate Software, for example, pays its junior (i.e. zero
experience) engineers £35k / year.

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mickeyp
Really? That's good to know. Glad to know the salaries are higher.

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barrkel
Bear in mind that this blog post is 2 years old and relates to stats that are
3 years old; and that finance was and is a fairly major industry in the UK.

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chollida1
When I went to university I took engineering instead of Comp Sci.

The reason being is that most places when they need an developer will hire
someone with pretty much any background, and those that do care will usually
take an engineer, math or physics grad as being equivalent to a comp sci grad.

On the other hand when a company goes to hire an engineer, they really can
only hire an engineer as stipulated by law.

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matheusalmeida
Living and working in the UK for over a year now as a Software Engineer in a
medium-sized company I see this article as a bit of a shock because every
month I'm aware of available positions (including graduates) for developers
that "want to get their hands dirty", i.e., working on core software tools
like compilers and linkers and despite working closely with universities it's
not easy to find new recruits willing to work on low-level development.

I guess the reality can be different if we take into account the percentage of
programmers that want to work on "web technologies" and that's a completely
different market.

All in all I think if one is a good developer, he/she will not have any
problems finding a suitable position working on very interesting problems.

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mickeyp
Well, low-level roles are harder to come by, for one, but they also tend not
to pay terribly well; especially as they're competing against Finance in
London, which does.

Here's my top tip for attracting amazing candidates: pay them a lot of money.
Simple as that.

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ig1
Speaking as someone who used to hire low-level developers in the financial
sector (i.e we could pay them an above average salary) I'd disagree.

There's only a handful of universities now which teach C to a decent level,
and if a candidate doesn't know C already it's very hard to tell if they'll be
able to conceptually handle pointers and indirect referencing. So there's
actually a very small pool to recruit from compared to the number of
vacancies.

If someone can't understand pointers, recursion, etc, then paying them extra
money isn't going to make them understand.

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Argentevenin
A lot of finance companies have rejected me for placements for low A level
grades despite high firsts in all my CS modules, solid extra curricular's
etc...

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ig1
The problem with unit grades is that they're not standardized across
universities, so what might be a first at a lower-tier university might be a
2:2 equivalent at a top-tier university.

Hence companies relying on A-Level scores and university reputation when
filtering.

What ECs do you have ? - that's probably your best bet of getting visibility.
Assuming you're a second year student you might want to apply for a GSoC on a
low-level project.

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Argentevenin
ECs are Formula Student (Mostly embedded systems stuff, also did a lot of
sponsorship getting organisation type stuff last year), Cyber Security
Challenge UK (Got invited to a conference, have been told to keep the dates of
two more face to faces clear...) and general member for one of the uni's
bigger societies.

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dr_doom
I don't know what any of those academic terms mean but what have you coded and
are most proud of?

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Argentevenin
At the moment me and two fourth years are basically writing all the code for a
single seater formula style electric race car. This means Motor controller,
battery controller, HUD, sensors, telemetry and getting it all to communicate.
(on the way having to learn a lot about control, signal processing and
learning a new platform) Its by far the most complex system I've ever worked
on and coming together really well - the guys I'm working with really know
there shit.

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sean-duffy
After just the other week observing a few articles on HN regarding the
situation with jobs for CS graduates in the US, one article stating a 2:1
ratio between the number of available jobs for developers and the number of
developers, this came as much of a surprise to me, as well as being pretty
disconcerting since I'm in the UK and planning to study CS next year.

I'm very interested to hear the opinions on this from those actually in the
industry, is the situation really that polar opposite between the US and the
UK?

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crntaylor
If you study at a good university, and learn useful things while you study,
and build cool things in your spare time, then you will have no problem
finding a job. The company I work for routinely pays £100k+ ($160k+) per year
to fresh computer science grads if they're really good.

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Alan01252
I find this figure hard to accept. £100k+ a year for a developer with no
experience?

I've been doing software development for a while now, and know more than a few
developers, and I guarantee you not one of them started on anywhere near £100k
a year.

£100k a year is around what I _know_ experienced contractual developers earn
working for big Canary Wharf banks.

If this is true, then please let me know the name of the company and I'll
apply right now.

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crntaylor
That number includes bonus - but it's certainly accurate. These guys might
have no commercial experience, but they certainly have plenty of programming
experience (and are typically top 1 or 2 in their year at university).

I've emailed you the name of the company using the contact form on your
website. We look forward to your application!

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Alan01252
Well you've successfully called my bluff....

Unfortunately I have no particular interest in that industry, and more
importantly, if I'm honest, wouldn't have a chance of getting through the
application stage.

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nickporter
Not terribly suprising...

I think that most computer science grads are not interested in building
enterprise software or rails web apps, but would rather work on advancing the
field of theoretical computer science. Unfortunately, I doubt there's much
demand nowadays for this type of work.

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alinajaf
I read CompSci at UCL graduating in 2006. Of the people I'm still in touch
with, most do Java at ibanks or went on to non-computer work. The remainder
are smattered about higher education, bioinformatics and the web-startup
scene. Not a one has had trouble finding work, and they all studied a _lot_
harder than I did.

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cbgrey
And yet as an employer (not in the UK though) I have a hard time finding
talented developers.

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wheaties
Here's the three step trick that works across the board:

1\. Pay more

2\. Offer amazing benefits.

3\. Sponsor tech events and become active in a tech community.

That's what I say to everyone who "can't find anyone decent." Decent people
can pick and choose at the moment. If they aren't choosing you, you're not
giving them enough reasons.

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mickeyp
Actually, you know, you just need #1 if you're hiring people who aren't in
their early 20s, or something. Most "help us solve hard problems!" technology
firms/startups in London simply don't pay that well, and that makes it hard to
attract the older, experienced developers with families.

Hiring contractors is another way of quickly getting access to a very large
pool of skilled workers, but I find that most smaller companies never bother,
even though the TOC of having a contractor on board may not be all that much
more than a permanent employee.

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marshallp
Things will get much worse for everyone with the coming of intelligent
software in the next couple of years. This is the calm before the storm.

