
How I almost made a huge mistake in an exit interview - JoshDoody
http://www.joshdoody.com/2015/02/how-i-almost-made-a-huge-mistake-in-an-exit-interview/
======
drawkbox
At every opportunity to burn a bridge, don't do it. That bridge might be
rickety and you'd never cross again but it is a possible path in the future or
maybe a recommendation that brings in some other bridge to cross.

Exit interviews just gracefully decline or say the good things that happened
at work, I am sure over time there was some gained experience.

If you truly don't like the place and they did things that will lead them to
their ultimate ends, just let them. You are leaving, you are free, it isn't
your problem, you tried to help when you were there. Nothing amazing will
happen with words if you couldn't change it with actions in possibly years of
work.

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outside1234
The most important thing you can learn about working in a big company is that
HR exists to work for management, not you.

So take the exit interview (and all other HR interactions) with that in mind.

~~~
300bps
You are precisely correct. Said another way, HR exists to protect the company
from you.

One of the hidden purposes of an exit interview is to "lock in" your story
before you leave. For example, if you say in your exit interview you are
leaving because the commute is too long it will be harder for you to credibly
say a year from now that you left because your boss was sexually harassing
you.

------
mgkimsal
One place I left I "named names" during an exit interview. I know it didn't
help right then, but I also know I wasn't the first, and I told colleagues
that I named names. After a couple more people left, they also named the same
names. Many months later, there was a bit of a cleanup, and the named names
were dealt with. I almost wanted to go back because by all accounts it was a
much healthier environment after the named were let go.

~~~
noehp
There are at least ten great engineers who've left my current company at least
partially because of a single toxic individual.

Every one of them decided to be 'professional' to not 'burn bridges' and they
did not name names. The toxic individual is still there. He is still
incredibly powerful, and he is still destroying value left and right.

I really, really wish they'd named names. Right now management knows that they
had ten undesirable voluntary terminations. They don't realize that they all
have a single primary contributing factor. As such, there's no possible way
the problem will get fixed.

~~~
wesd
Is that person a manager? If not, how doesn't his manager not notice his
impact on other individuals to a point where ten people leave the company?

~~~
noehps
The toxic person was hired by the CEO and predates his manager.

The toxic person was likely valuable early in the company's history (he's
great at throwing together prototype-quality code), and that reputation makes
him hard to fire.

------
O____________O
_Well, that could’ve been awkward. If I had written what I really wanted to
say in the exit interview, our final conversation could have gone much
differently._

So? Leaving a company is always uncomfortable. And you're _leaving_. Who cares
if your parting conversation with your ineffectual boss is a slightly worse
experience?

 _If I had been harsh in my exit interview, what could have happened? What
might my old boss say if he was called to verify my previous employment?_

This seems like much anxiety over theoretical possibilities.

It seems to me that people's attitudes toward hiring would utterly doom anyone
who has ever had an incompetent, a-hole boss. Personally, I've found that
employers who actually want me will hire me on the spot. Ones who want to dink
around with references and confirming employment history have proved to be
wishy-washy and overly cautious in everything. If someone wants to chat with
your last employer, expect them to be reluctant to approve that new machine
you've been asking for all year.

~~~
SagelyGuru
I agree with saying it as it is. Also: don't you think that this "system",
whereby nobody is supposed to say what they really think, either in these
interviews, or in giving references, is deeply counter-productive and
demeaning to all concerned? Things did not always used to be this way.

I don't care for the high sounding "rights" justifications. What about the
most basic right of everyone to speak the truth as they see it?

Clearly, it is better not to needlessly exaggerate any criticism.
Nevertheless, it works both ways. If a leaving employee has only positive
things to say, I know he is being disingenuous - and if some friends ask about
him/her, I would actually be far less likely to recommend such an "a.se
licker".

~~~
ashark
A lot of the hiring process seems to be about making sure you'll write/say the
correct lies.

Look at common intro paragraphs for résumés. They're horse shit, and everyone
knows it, but deviate much from the usual "dedicated team player who blah blah
blah" and it goes in the bin. Doesn't matter that it's horse shit—it matters
that you follow convention.

"Where do you see yourself in 5 years" -> honest answer in 99% of cases is "I
don't know, but odds are it'll be more or less the same place as now but
slightly richer and fatter". You cannot say this. Doesn't matter that it's
true.

"What makes you want to work at our company?" -> honest answer in 99.9% of
cases is "it pays enough money and seems less awful than my other options for
performing activities that pay similar amounts of money". You _really_ can't
say this, and even a heavily buttered-up (that is, coated in bullshit) version
isn't likely to pass muster. Lie or GTFO.

Not telling the expected lies is a great way to end interviews, or never get
them in the first place. The only actual purpose it can possibly serve, that I
can think of, is to weed out some of the crazies and eccentrics very quickly.
Someone more conspiracy-minded might come up with a bunch of stuff about how
it ensures the applicant is sufficiently cowed by this horrible economic
machine we all serve, but I suspect the situation is more of an accident than
anything with much intention behind it.

Yes, yes, there are exceptions, but this is the reality that the mass of
employment-seekers face most of the time. Tell the right lies or go in the
bin. One of the more shocking and difficult-to-cope-with elements of adult
life if you're brought up to value honesty. Try to talk to people about it and
many seem to become confused. "But that's just what you put on it. Here, you
need to add something about how you're a self-starter." Sigh.

[edit] I would add that the "why do you want to work here?" question carries
the bonus stupidity/uselessness-factor in that no place where someone wanted
to work for reasons other than just money and it being less shitty than the
other options would _ever_ feel the urge to ask it. SpaceX doesn't have to
ask. They launch fucking rockets in to space. You sell ( _e.g._ ) Point of
Sale software, so you ask because there's no obvious answer other than "you
pay money, I want money". It's a question dripping with insecurity.

~~~
lisper
> "Where do you see yourself in 5 years"

My stock answer to this is to quote Carl Sagan and say that prophecy is a lost
art.

Maybe if enough people start giving that answer, employers will stop asking
this incredibly stupid question.

------
rogerbinns
Is there any point in doing an exit interview? It feels a lot like Miranda
rights - "anything you say can and will be used against you". Note: not for
you.

If you work somewhere good, then you will presumably have tried to change
things before leaving. If you work somewhere with issues, then the exit
interview won't change anything.

~~~
vosper
I think it's an opportunity to cast your employment in a good light, leave on
a positive note (maybe that's even true in a lot of cases), and maintain your
relationships.

I certainly don't see any value in venting or burning bridges - you've already
quit, now let it go; ranting doesn't do you any favours, even if it feels
great.

~~~
rogerbinns
I meant the alternative of not doing one at all. As opposed to venting, or
trying to change things. Even if you try to be positive it is problematic.

Firstly if you are so positive, then why are you leaving? Secondly even only
being positive means you leave things out. How is someone going to feel when
they read it, and see you don't mention them or mention them enough.

The good light/positive leaving can be better accomplished by your farewell
email, as you get to choose who it goes to (most likely far more people than
just the exit interview) and you can put in it whatever you want.

------
jader201
I disagree quite a bit with the advice left at the bottom. It seems many
people equate "being honest" with "being a jerk".

You can still provide very honest and valuable feedback when you exit a
company, without being a jerk. If the move is really about you, and nothing
that the company can or should change, then that's fine.

But if there are things that the company did to cause you to leave, or if a
once great company changed directions and started diverting from what you
considered an awesome place to work, then you are only hurting those you leave
behind when you "focus on yourself" and not "focus on others or the company".

If you're exit interview is with HR, then it may very well not do any good.
But if you're tactful and constructive with your feedback -- even if it is
about things the company could change -- then it _shouldn 't_ hurt you. And if
the interview is with someone above you -- or if it falls in their hands --
then it could very well benefit the company and the people you leave behind.

If I were your ex-coworker, I would be disappointed that you didn't take the
opportunity to help improve the culture I'm still a part of. If I were your
manager, I would want you to be honest so that I can improve the culture to
attract better talent going forward.

If the company/people you work with don't handle constructive feedback very
well, then that's their problem and not yours.

My advice: Be honest, but professional and constructive about it.

~~~
serve_yay
> You can still provide very honest and valuable feedback when you exit a
> company, without being a jerk.

You could also spruce up the decor a bit before you walk out the door for the
last time. But, why?

~~~
taeric
Because it is a frighteningly small world?

~~~
Iftheshoefits
It's small if one is geographically constrained or one has risen up to a
certain point on the promotion ladder.

Beyond those factors I am skeptical that it's worth worrying about whether a
past manager will have anything bad _or_ good to say about a person.

Even if the chance were worth considering, I think one would do better to view
it as a negative signal if a company makes the decision to not hire based on
one bad or negative reference. It means the company was looking for _any_
excuse to not hire the candidate, and it seems very likely in that case there
wasn't _really_ a good fit. This of course assumes that negative experiences
are (relatively) rare. There are people who just can't help but torch the
place everywhere they go, but no advice really applies in such extreme cases.

------
equalarrow
I think if you treat this situation like the lords and serfs, then yes, you
should probably not be honest with yourself. You should definitely not make
any trouble, ruffle any feathers, avoid 'staying foolish'..

But if you think of it in the reality of your life and you are your own
master, then you owe it to yourself to be honest and say what's on your mind.
This isn't illegal (yet) and yah, you might run into someone who knows someone
in the lords network.. But, is that the way to live?

I'm not saying to be rude or insensitive or a jerk on the way out. But once
you realize a place isn't for you, then why does it matter what they say or
think. Does Mark Hurd care what anyone connected to HP thinks? (Granted, he's
an extreme case and if only we didn't have to play by the rules too..)

If you're leaving a place where there were people that were jerks, then sure,
it's up to you to tone it down or turn it up. I've seen a lot of both kinds of
exits and the people I know that turned it up were never ostracized and denied
good jobs later. In fact, most found great jobs that could stay with for a
long time.

------
deedubaya
I'm all about not burning bridges. I'm also all about not being afraid of
confrontation.

It sounds like this article's main reason to avoid being HONEST is to avoid
the confrontation that be a product of being honest. Yay passive
aggressiveness!

ZOMG SOMEONE MIGHT READ MY FILE AND BE UPSET BECAUSE I CALLED THEM OUT.

In reality, if you haven't been honest and confronted the negatives in your
job by the time you leave, this is actually pretty good advice.

Life is too short to hate where you work, what you do, or who you work with.
Not happy? Put plans in motion to change that. Don't hide from reality.
Embrace the confrontation, you'll be happier and in a better place because of
it.

~~~
serve_yay
No, it is much simpler: there is no upside, and only downside. This is like
saying that when I walk down the street and don't pick fights for no reason,
it's because I'm conflict-avoidant.

------
patcon
This is so counter to how I've approached exit interviews. I try to give as
much concerned criticism as possible. And commendation on the things done
well, if course.

Why? To make the place better for the friends I'm leaving. And presumably you
like some of the management, so also to help them run a better company.

I can't quite understand the defensively posturing, so I'll assume it's that
I've been lucky enough to work in the sort of environments where I feel
comfortable saying the things above :)

------
amackera
I always conduct exit interviews in person (how on earth would it be possible
to conduct an exit interview _anonymously_!?). Often I have to press and poke
and ask the same question 10 different ways before I actually get to the real
meat of what the person wants to tell me. People naturally want to leave a
good impression, they don't want to rock the boat, even if they've had a
terrible experience. I don't want to hear your canned responses about getting
a better opportunity elsewhere. I want to know why _this_ company isn't that
kickass opportunity. I what to know where and when we went wrong so that I can
_improve_.

The article mentions

 _" If I had written what I really wanted to say in the exit interview, our
final conversation could have gone much differently"_

Yeah! With the sanitized responses, this conversation is just wasting my time.
With the _real_ responses, I can actually respond to your feedback and make
the job better for the next guy.

~~~
jackmaney
If an employee is leaving, why should they risk a negative reference in order
to be candid with you? There's absolutely nothing that they can possibly gain
from participating at all, let alone being honest.

~~~
patrickdavey
Do most people not line up a new job before leaving the last one? And my
referees are specific people from jobs, rather than the company at large, and
I'd not be asking someone I didn't respect to be a referee.

~~~
jackmaney
When HR/Recruiters check references, they do not always restrict themselves to
the list of people that you give them...

------
Slartibreakfast
The easiest way to avoid making mistakes in an exit interview is not to
participate in one. You're not obligated to do an exit interview, and nobody
takes it personally if you don't.

~~~
jackmaney
Agreed. You have absolutely nothing to gain by participating in an exit
interview.

~~~
joshschreuder
It has the potential to benefit your friends still working at the company
though, right?

Especially if the same themes crop up in multiple exit interviews, hopefully
someone in management can change the issues facing people leaving.

~~~
Slartibreakfast
I think user drawkbox says it best in his post:

"Nothing amazing will happen with words if you couldn't change it with actions
in possibly years of work."

This is it. Plain and simple.

------
drewrv
This really feels familiar for me. I was emailed an "anonymous" survey when
leaving a Big Corp, and filled it out honestly and mostly positive.

Of course they bring up my answers in the exit interview, and when I told them
"I thought that was anonymous." they told me, "Oh it is, only HR is allowed to
see it. We remove the names from the surveys before we send it to [the boss]."

Of course turnover is low enough there that the boss could easily match the
responses to the employees. So essentially, the "anonymous" aspect is a giant
lie. Wish I could go back and amend the anonymous survey to tell the what I
think about companies which lie to their employees, even if said employees are
on their way out.

~~~
jsprogrammer
You can post a review on glassdoor or similar site.

------
icedchai
What? At my last exit interview, I told them (HR) that the boss was a poor
communicator, incompetent technically, and didn't know how to manage a
project.

They asked me if I'd consider working for another team.

I laughed.

------
ChrisBland
This logic should also be applied to when past employees call for references.
Never give a statement, refer the person calling to your corporate HR
department. Your company most likely has a policy for this, in addition if you
say something you are not supposed to legally you could open yourself up to a
heap of trouble. INAL but I've sat through enough corporate HR presentations
to have this hammered home and hopefully can share this with startups who
haven't had the benefit of an experienced HR team.

~~~
vonmoltke
Yet companies still ask for references from supervisors, even companies that
have this very policy in place.

~~~
derekp7
That's because, as far as I know, a supervisor won't get in trouble for saying
"Jim was the brightest employee I've ever had, which we could have kept him".
And by referring the caller to HR, that is a closet way of giving a negative
reference.

~~~
Iftheshoefits
And if the former supervisor has an axe to grind his implicit negative
reference doesn't mean much.

Add to that the fact that employees carefully cultivate positive references
and you have just one more reason why references are a poor indicator of
basically anything.

------
willvarfar
The standard advise is to _never_ do an exit interview!

[http://www.asktheheadhunter.com/haexit.htm](http://www.asktheheadhunter.com/haexit.htm)

~~~
zo1
That's only half (or less?) the article, the rest is apparently locked away in
some "Amazing Secrets of HeadHunting" book that I "must buy". I'm half-
surprised it didn't try to tell me about some "Revolutionary New System for
Increasing my ..." you get the picture.

No thank you, it was an interesting read while it lasted.

------
tdees40
BTW - as someone who's in the financial industry (i.e. not software
development), it's shocking to me that companies ask for references from prior
employers. Positive feedback is obviously helpful, but there's a huge
incentive for false negative feedback. It's just really unimaginable why that
would be seen as a reliable source.

~~~
poikniok
It is pretty standard to give good references to bad employees in order to
make one's competitors suffer their incompetence. Likewise all things being
equal one does not want a great employee leaving to work for a competitor.
Overall this is widely understood so nobody pays any attention to references.

------
serve_yay
I feel it's best to not really say anything of substance. You're not there to
proffer advice, and it's not like they are disposed to listen to (what will be
perceived as) the disgruntled ramblings of someone who got fed up and quit. To
them, when you quit over problems in the organization, it doesn't mean they
need to change, it means you "couldn't handle it".

Basically, offer them your consulting services if they are actually interested
in fixing their problems (spoiler: they're not). Everything else, keep it
super anodyne and say the functional equivalent of nothing.

------
lmm
Would it really have been a mistake? Someone who'd lie to you in that way
doesn't seem like someone you gain a lot from being on good terms with.

------
kelukelugames
Go on LinkedIn and browse through your old bosses' networks. Everyone knows
everyone.

Another point: Companies are most willing to listen to feedback from the
people they like. If you are a superstar and leave because the work is not
challenging then management will take notice. If you whine about the job being
boring everyday then management will write you off as a chronic complainer.

~~~
Scuds
> Everyone knows everyone.

Oh God, this.

Microsoft stack consultants in New York City. You'd think "a few million
people live here..." but if you're in your 50's and have been in this game for
awhile, you'll know the heads of your competitors. This is doubly true if you
present at user groups or meetups.

------
sp332
How can the exit interview be anonymous? It's not like whoever's reading it
doesn't know it's you leaving.

------
RavneetGrewal
Atleast your manager did not show up un-announced in your exit interview with
the HR! Mine did :)

------
ericclemmons
Don't burn bridges, but please give honest, constructive feedback.

A good employee left recently and gave honest criticism to how projects were
managed and other deficiencies that meant myself and others still had a lot of
room for improvement.

------
dmourati
The first mistake in an exit interview is taking the exit interview.

------
GregQuinn
Never ever under any circumstances whether an employee or a contractor agree
to an exit interview. There is nothing for you to gain.

Take the lady's advice and just say NO!

------
jqm
"Yes, I could tell you what your problems are and how you could make the
workplace better, but then I would have to charge you as a consultant....."

~~~
jackmaney
My consulting rate is 4 * equivalent_hourly_rate(old_salary) dollars per hour.

------
d--b
You're right, better do it on the internet and post on hacker news. More
impact that way

