
Studies find having kids makes people less happy - cmcginnis
http://www.newsweek.com/id/143792
======
axod
Studies can show anything if you cherry pick the right statistics out.

Personal experience says being a parent is one of the coolest and most
enjoyable things you can do with your life.

You could also say that "being in a relationship makes people less happy" -
quite likely true if you pick out the right statistics.

~~~
timr
It's pretty funny when you criticize "cherry picking", then immediately cite
"personal experience" as evidence for a position.

~~~
axod
Yeah but the difference is, I labelled it as "personal experience", and not
some sort of "study". I also did _not_ state it was in any way evidence for
anything.

I simply said that in my experience, it's been great fun... It's up to you
though. Don't have kids.. Don't buy a house. Go travelling. Just don't get to
80 and wish you had done things differently.

~~~
timr
You absolutely _did_ use your opinion as an argument. Look at what you wrote:

"Personal experience says being a parent is one of the coolest and most
enjoyable things you can do with _your_ life."

If you weren't trying to use your personal opinion as as evidence, what you
should have written was:

"Personal experience says being a parent is one of the coolest and most
enjoyable things _I_ did with _my_ life."

The latter is a statement of opinion; the former is an argument.

~~~
timr
The OP is suggesting that a published study is "cherry-picking" data -- but
isn't providing any evidence to support his claim. His only argument is his
personal opinion.

It's sad that a blatant logical fallacy can become the second-highest-rated
comment attached to this article.

~~~
davidw
Published or not, "happiness research" is notoriously difficult. It isn't
exactly hard science.

Here's another personal opinion: our daughter is pretty much the most
important thing I've ever done, and even if something like Hecl were to become
hugely popular, she still would be _to me_ , although perhaps not to the world
at large. I would bet that someone like Linus might feel similarly.

Many other things you do in life might have significant impacts on lots of
other people (perhaps adding up to 'more overall impact'), but a child's life
and future is entirely in your hands, which is a _huge_ responsibility.

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electromagnetic
Happiness is subjective, and frankly my happiness is dependent on what I
achive in life, as I expect most people on here are. People on here are trying
to set up companies, most of whom will likely fail as most start-ups do in the
first couple of years and they bring a lot of stress and depression, but
everyone on here seems positively extatic that they're doing something that in
two decades they can say they did something with their life.

I would hate myself if I got to 80 and realised I'd never accomplished
anything. If I have kids, I know I'll have done at least _something_ with my
life, I'll be able to say 'I raised my 2.4 kids well' and be proud of it. Just
like I'm proud that I've moved to a different country.

I'm proud of my life already and I'm only in my 20's, having kids is only
going to make me more proud of my life, just as many other things I aim to
accomplish will. So I really don't care if I'm not as smiley happy for a few
years as I'll be happy that I've done things other people haven't.

------
electric
I'm waiting for this one to show up here..."Studies find having startups makes
people less happy."

;)

~~~
mechanical_fish
Actually, I think I remember an article claiming that having a startup _does_
make entrepreneurs happy. It's _everything else_ (income, social life, stress
level) that gets worse for entrepreneurs when they start their own business.

Working for myself has definitely lowered my income, at least for the short
term. But I'm fairly happy.

------
jimbokun
Burying the lede:

"Parents still report feeling a greater sense of purpose and meaning in their
lives than those who've never had kids."

So "happiness" or "sense of purpose and meaning." Take your pick.

~~~
reazalun
Is there any happy people who live without any sense of purpose and meaning?

~~~
Jem
Me?

I haven't got a clue what my purpose in life is. I'm still happy with what
I've got, though.

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notauser
It always amuses me when people point to their kids as their proudest
achievement. It puts me in mind of this:

function generation(input) { output = input + 0; generation(output); }

Lots of activity, no progress. Your greatest achievement should be something
you did that any kids you have would be proud of. Merely spwaning offspring is
something that anyone can do - and some of the best kids in every generation
come from the worst homes so 'doing it right' is hardly a value added
activity.

~~~
a10
Raising a child is a lot more than "spwaning offspring." You're obviously not
a parent and have no appreciation for what your parents have done for you.

In the meantime keep playing halo and wanking to online porn.

~~~
notauser
Insisting that only parents can have opinions on the subject of kids is a bit
odd. I would bet that you have an opinion on nuclear power, despite never
having built a reactor in your back yard.

Society pays quite a lot towards the cost of children as well (depending on
where you are). For example here roughly 10% of income is taxed to pay for
universal healthcare, of which a large chunk goes to subsidised and free care
for children. If society is picking up part of the bills it should get part of
the credit.

(And I don't play Halo, nor am I single. I'm not even that young. Ad hominem
is the lowest form of argument.)

~~~
axod
I don't know, I think kids are one of those things that change your mind about
a _lot_ of things, when you actually have them.

It's funny hearing non-parents views sometimes, as they bear little relation
to how things really go in practice.

Imagine taking relationship advice from someone who has never had a
girlfriend. Sure, they can have an opinion, but I'm not likely to take much
notice of it.

~~~
emmett
I wouldn't go to a non-parent for advice on how to quiet a toddler or get your
kids to help clean the house. On the other hand, parents can be somewhat
irrational when it comes to societal issues. Risk tolerance goes way down,
particularly for "dramatic" risks like child abduction.

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tx
At my old job we used to play basketball once a week after work. I can't say
either this article is true or not, but one thing for sure: guys with kids
were much less eager to leave the court and go home. They were the last to
leave and first to beg others (kidless) to stay and play a little longer.

~~~
Tichy
Scariest remark so far. I have long had the same suspicion about those co-
workers who love the extra-long hours: they are simply afraid to go home and
meet the family(?).

That might also (among other things) be the reason employers love to hear that
you have a family.

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ivankirigin
Happiness studies aren't worth your time. Also, generalizations about the
lives of others make bad advice.

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blurry
Every single study on couples that choose not to have children confirms that
they tend to be well-educated and well-off. If you pick a group that's better
off than most in every important category (money, social rank, health, etc),
you would expect them to be happier, duh. Correlating one of their many
choices with happiness is a classic example of selection bias.

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geuis
Well let's hand it to Newsweek for enforcing a crappy version of the page
because I'm viewing it from my iPhone. It doesn't take me to a mobile version
of the story, just a mini-list of "mobile stories".

Dear Newsweek, get a clue.

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sygzzy
Schopenhauer knew this - fulfilling our biological urges (to pair off and
multiply) is in no way related to human happiness. Where biology and happiness
butt heads biology is more likely to win.

------
DaniFong
Are self-filled surveys accurate in finding out whether someone is happy? I my
experience, verbal responses, action and body language often contradict each
other. Which is right?

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reazalun
Even having a very beautiful girlfriend can't make you happy all the time. You
can still cry while you are at the Disney Land.

All those studies failed to recognize that the state of happiness is not
something infinite. And how can you understand and appreciate the happiness if
you have never taste the wrath of sadness?

Yes, the studies show us the correlation between having kids and less
happiness in people. But remember, correlation does not imply causation.

------
ericb
What this leaves out is the elder years. I believe there is evidence that
looking back on an achievements like raising a family lead to happier grey
years. Additionally, having someone to care for you when your spouse is gone,
and having family to be a part of seems pretty likely to increase happiness.
I'd be willing to bet that having grandkids makes people happier. (all play,
no work!)

None of this was covered in the study.

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gscott
This article is a positive. Those people who read it and decide not to have
children, they are at least not replicating there DNA meaning future
generations will not have to deal with those who only have love for
themselves.

Reminds me of the story of Narcissus where Narcissus fell in love with himself
once he saw his reflection. He was so in love with his reflection he didn't
leave to eat and died.

~~~
khafra
I would characterize a person who decides to make partial copies of himself to
care for as more self-loving than a person who takes a sober look at resource
depletion and decides to seek other means of self-fulfilment, whether that
means taking care of already-existing humans or just self-actualizing in
solitude.

~~~
gscott
I am not sure if you have ever flown over the United States... it is mostly
empty land. It is not depleted. I happen to live in San Diego, we happen to
have thousands of new people moving in every day from Mexico. So if you are
not going to use it, it looks like others will.

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newt0311
wrong. See
[http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2008/06/selection_bias_1...](http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2008/06/selection_bias_1.html)

~~~
electromagnetic
Agreed, happiness has been proven to be subjective. Paraplegics are happy 1
year after their disability causing accident, so wouldn't parents of newborns
be the same? It's not a change in circumstances that makes the paraplegics
happy, they're still disabled, they didn't magically gain the ability to walk
and just not mention it so they keep getting disability. No the paraplegics
happiness is subjective, they become happy being a paraplegic just as a parent
of a newborn will become happy being a parent.

It's also safe to assume you'll only be happy for a year after your kids
leave, and this likely explains the newlywed syndrome that they're happy for
the first year and then reality kicks in.

~~~
qaexl
Going further with this, it also subtly screws up the kid when the kid feels
he is responsible for his parents' happiness.

This study shouldn't be that surprising. It is adequately explained by
Fruedian/Jungnian psychological theories.

