
The Impacts of Video Games on Cognition (2015) [pdf] - lainon
http://greenlab.psych.wisc.edu/documents/Policy_Insights_from_the_Behavioral_and_Brain_Sciences-2015-Green-101-10.pdf
======
WA
Having only read the abstract and key points: The question is if video games
have a better positive impact on cognitive abilities than other things you
could do in the meantime that may also improve other abilities as well.

I write this because I quit video games almost entirely a year ago. I played
probably 500-700 hours of video games in 2015. I played occasionally simple
games on my phone in 2016.

The major downside for me was that I felt video games only improve my ability
to play video games. I favored online games over single player games, but at
the same time, I felt the addiction behind it. I can't play video games "for
fun". I want to be good and that costs time. Video games have the downside of
giving players easy rewards. I think it does something bad to your brain. Not
necessarily altering it forever, but at least turning one into a little
dopamine junkie.

In 2016, I spend about 40 times 3 hours in a private art school. I improved my
drawing and painting skills a lot in merely 120 hours. That was a much better
investment of my time than video games and I wonder if the forced
concentration of looking at objects and colors for 3 hours straight had
comparable improvements of cognitive abilities.

Anyways, what I want to say is this: If you feel that you're wasting too much
time on video games, despite what research tries to spin positively about it,
try to quit them and see what happens.

~~~
Agentlien
If you cannot play games just for fun, then I definitely see how it can feel
like a stressful affair and an unhealthy addiction. And if that's your
relationship to games, then not playing them does sound like a very reasonable
choice.

On the other end of the spectrum, I myself see video games as my big passion
and it's a large part of what I do to unwind and have fun. I would estimate
that I typically play 10-20 hours of video games a week in my spare time.

In fact, I'm passionate enough about games that I decided from a young age
that I wanted to dedicate myself full time to game development and,
consequently, that is what I do for a living as a Software Engineer at Ghost
Games. So, that is another 40 hours a week that I spend on games.

But I do play games simply to have fun and there is the occasional week when I
simply don't feel like it. And then I fill my spare time with other activities
I enjoy.

~~~
rublev
>If you cannot play games just for fun, then I definitely see how it can feel
like a stressful affair and an unhealthy addiction.

The stress is in the losing.

~~~
notheguyouthink
Hell, it's in the winning too. MOBAs are a great example of a game i hate to
win or lose, but _(not currently)_ play purely for the rush, teamfights, depth
in meta, etc.

No game has made me hate winning more than DoTA. It's quite astounding,
really. I can fully not-enjoy a match and turn right around and want to play
another to hopefully get a good match. Not one i win, specifically, but one
that is enjoyable, even if a loss - which entirely depends on the players.

I quit playing DoTA _(currently)_ not because of the feelings, but because of
the time investment. Long games mean long iteration cycles on my above "just
one more game, i want a good game". At 40m chunks, suddenly you're entire
night was gone and all i wanted was one game that didn't make me feel like
hell.

Yes, this is all very addiction sounding, and it's likely not wrong.

~~~
url00
Have you looked at Battlerite before? I was in the same place as you, except
with League of Legends. Loved playing teamfights, tolerated a 15 minute lane
phase. But with queue times getting beyond 5 minutes and dodges becoming more
common a game could take upwards of an hour from start to finish.

Battlerite fixes these issues (and adds a few of course), but the biggest win
for me is that the iteration cycle is extremely short - games only last at max
15 minutes. Queue times are fast with no pick/ban phase. You just get in game
and get fighting.

As someone who was finding traditional MOBAs hard to find time for, I
recommend at least looking at it. The percentage of good games in my
experience is much higher. One final note though: I would stay away from the
subreddit. It makes r/leagueoflegends look good.

~~~
notheguyouthink
Yup, i actually own it, it's great! Granted, there is still a fair bit of
meta, heroes to learn, etc - something i've been avoiding because i've been
busy working on side projects.

These days with very limited time i've been focusing to co-op friendly time,
so my wife and i can play together. Even though i enjoy Battlerite/Dota/etc, i
need something that gives me my game enjoyment (whatever i want at the time),
and also builds relationships with my wife/etc.

That was another bad thing about DoTA, she's not big into PvP games and DoTA
is the king of those bad-manner gamers haha. Well, maybe Xbod + CoD holds that
record... but imo, DoTA players hurt you more, hah.

Anyway, these days we stick to offline co-op games. Astroneer, Divinity
Original Sin, and Pit People. All three are excellent for their respective
genres (though, 2 of them are in early access and short on content).

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xherberta
Summary: ... we need more research... existing studies have flaws...
guidelines for kids aren't even based on research... what gov't agency should
regulate games? ... some agency should regulate brain-training games.

Here's the gem:

When it comes to surgeons, "cross-sectional research shows action video game
experience is a better predictor of positive surgical outcomes than years of
training or number of surgeries performed."

~~~
faitswulff
I did a quick search and I am actually shocked at how many studies there are
on this:

[https://www.projectcredo.com/briankung/the-impact-of-
videoga...](https://www.projectcredo.com/briankung/the-impact-of-videogames-
on-surgeons-performance) †

I expected studies like "Does playing video games improve laparoscopic
skills?" but not "Impact of Super Monkey Ball and Underground video games on
basic and advanced laparoscopic skill training."

† Disclaimer: I built this site

~~~
tomcam
Whoa! I think the same may be true for fighter pilots

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greenail
It would be more interesting to compare playing video games to other pastimes
such as golf, coding, reading, watching tv...

I'm surprised no one else noticed the conflict of interest disclaimer:

A. R. Seitz is a founder and stakeholder in Carrot Neurotechnology, a company
that sells a vision brain game called ULTIMEYES. Carrot, and Seitz as an
individual, are involved in a case with the FTC regarding advertising claims
that Carrot made based upon Seitz’s University based research.

~~~
xherberta
He sure as shootin named the _hizzy_ out of that game.

------
Agentlien
Before I started working in AAA game development I spent a few years working
in the field of virtual training simulators for laparoscopic surgery.

In that context there were several similar studies. We mainly focused on those
performed in order to validate skill transfer from our own training simulation
to the operating room.[1][2][3]

However, there were also studies which showed that doctors who had spent a lot
of time playing video games in their spare time performed better in the
operating room, as well.[4]

[1] _Skills acquired on LapSim transfer into the operating room_ , Gunnar
Ahlberg et al., The American Journal of Surgery, 2007:193, p797

[2] _Novice performance level bypassed by VR simulation training_ , Christian
Rifbjerg Larsen et al., British Medical Journal, 2009:338, p1802

[3] _VR laparoscopic training outperforms traditional curriculum_ , Vanessa
Palter et al., Annals of Surgery, 2013:257, p 224

[4] _The impact of video games on training surgeons in the 21st century_ ,
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17309970](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17309970)

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matheusmoreira
There are genres of video games much more deserving of strict regulation than
"brain-training" games which may or may not be backed by science.

Way too many mobile games I've played function like casinos. Their goal is to
make players spend as much money as possible and the game design reinforces
such behavior and also keeps the player coming back like an addict attempting
to avoid the negative symptoms of withdrawal.

When it comes to the safety of players, I think these money sinks are a much
bigger concern than games that may or may not enhance cognitive abilities.

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jack9
My experience after over 35 years of hardcore gaming (since I first saw pong).

Largely, video games are about linear optimizations with multiple complex
variables in a highly dynamic (borderline chaotic) environment. This
approaches the complexity of day to day life, as many people can understand
their situation in life. Unlike life, there are known bounds for most games or
it takes a finite amount of time to explore these bounds to sufficient
understanding to progress in some metric (usually winning ratio, but also APM
or K/D ratio).

Frustration is largely a result of RNG punishment (that can FAIL? Why did my
mats disappear after my 4 hours of grinding? etc) or participation failure
(there were 3 of you and you couldn't handle 1?) or mechanics failure (imba
<mechanic> just wrecks everyone) which includes nerfing a mechanic a player
relies on. Every now and then you will also see player frustration related to
a lack of dextrous skill (bullet hell shooters, fps games, rts apm, etc) or
understanding (this game's <x> is just broken! - even though the game is
founded around that mechanic being the strongest - i.e. Chess/Queen, Counter
Strike/CT pistols > glock).

Like text puzzles or mindgames, video games allow for people to constantly
develop strategies and exercise them for a complexity level that is uncommon
in human experience. In group settings, the gamers generally come up with
solutions to problems (of various quality) quickly and decisively, then will
later discuss deeper strategy. Video game trial-and-error trains for that kind
of approach and lots of playtime tends to treat indecisiveness as
disadvantageous.

Does it make you smarter? Not that I have seen. Does it make you faster? Yes,
it trains you to optimize your reaction time at a moment's notice and there is
a dopamine feedback loop, even if you are a poor performer. Does it help you
long-term in staving off cognitive decline? Probably not directly, but there
was a study about constantly challenging your mind to combat decline, iirc.

Those are my thoughts.

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TulliusCicero
It's funny, because we'll talk all day long about how (physical) play is so
important to a child's cognitive development, never considering that maybe
mentally-focused play is also beneficial. The very fact that video games are
so compelling/addictive has given them the reputation of being nonproductive,
so we tend to assume that they must give little or no benefit to the
individual player.

~~~
6stringmerc
Games are quite passive in the grand scheme of things and do little to
actually challenge cognition. Compared to other basic toys / learning devices,
video games don't have compelling research because I don't think it'll work
out. There's no 3 dimensional space to work through (Legos), no emotional play
(dolls, action figures), visual imagination time (crayons, Play Doh)...on and
on and on with better examples that don't need batteries and are more
stimulating than being a button mashing monkey.

~~~
Agentlien
While I strongly agree about the necessity of physical play, I disagree that
games in general lack the things you are listing.

3 dimensional space: There are plenty of puzzle games focused on challenging
the player to understand how 3D spaces (or higher) are connected.

Emotional play: This is one of the main focuses of many RPG:s as well as
interactive fiction.

Visual imagination: Many games have this at least as a component. I'd say any
city building games, The Sims, Conway's Game of Life.

~~~
freeflight
>3 dimensional space/visual imaginiation

These do not even require puzzle/building games, most video games that require
the player to move trough a 3D virtual environment train the players ability
to "mentally rotate objects" and for "visual imagination" (gotta build a map
in your head of that virtual place), in this case the games world.

Many people who regularly play games don't realize this, but keeping oriented
in a virtual space is not something many people are good with by nature. It
only feels natural to many gamers because they are used to it.

And I'd say anything that involves some kind of "multiplayer" can add
emotional play, even more so in games that require coordination between
several players on a bigger scale, like MMORPGs. The social drama I've
witnessed in games like WoW is some of the worst drama I've ever seen ;)

------
rdiddly
Using Visual Studio is kind of like a simple video game. Make the red
underlined errors go away! Pew! Pew! Select the right intellisense on the fly
to complete the puzzle! Deploy the right code snippet for the situation!

Pretty sure it's enhancing my cognitive abilities too.

~~~
exodust
Hah! Yes, and there's a lot to be said for actual games which require problem
solving in order to progress. And even more those which result in something
unique being created as the outcome.

In fact, your comment has made me thought of an educational type game which
when completed results in a 3D model file produced, which when printed, can be
manipulated a certain way to provide access to the next stage in the game.

Right.. I'm gonna think some more about this. Meanwhile, someone else reading
this can steal the idea, it's all good, I'll probably never do it anyway 'cos
I'm too busy playing games every single day.

------
ismail
I wonder what the impact of pay to win type games?

Had an interesting discussion with my bro who is into gaming he says most of
his peers are playing "pay to win" the games are only superficially based on
skill and the only way to progress, compete and win is buying upgrades.

I stopped playing games seriously a while back so a bit out of the loop.

The games are rewarding $$$ over putting in the effort/time to learn. I'm
curious about a few things:

What are the effects of these types of games?

Could it discourage effort, make people believe they can buy their way to
skills without effort?

What are the impacts of constant gamification? The app stores are filled with
toddler games heavily gamified. Are we creating a generation of people that
will be purely extrinsically motivated?

~~~
Globz
F2P is a different approach to gaming where you play the game for Free so no
monthly fees and most of the time no need to buy the game, this way you can
attract even more player.

Here's a quick example for an F2P MMO with PVP and the difference between both
models :

You can have F2P (free to play) games where there's no P2W, meaning the
progression is EQUAL for paying and non paying players, the only difference is
that you can buy aesthetic items which change how you look, buy extra storage
space,etc but give no real advantage other than looking cool or giving you
very small benefits.

In P2W model, the way to progress through the game is that you can purchase
in-game currency with real money and unlock special items , stronger powers,
blessed items (if you die in PVP you won't lose everything), experience
booster while leveling your character,etc these items give you an edge over
non paying players, so if you stack all the paying items you basically win
every fights against non paying players. Therefore no matter what you do in
this game you MUST pay to compete.

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openfuture
I was a severe world of warcraft addict and I'm pretty sure it had a permanent
effect on my cognition, whether that effect was 'bad' is an open question but
there's no doubt in my mind that video games have an enormous effect on your
way of thinking.

~~~
exodust
Your comment needs elaboration. Claims of "permanent cognitive effects" and
"enormous effect on way of thinking" surely can be supported with examples.

If you can't describe those enormous effects, there's a good chance you simply
missed out on social occasions and a bunch of things happening around you
outside in your community while you played games, and that void of reality is
enough to warrant claims of "enormous effects". In other words, lifestyle
disruption and reality substitution. Just a theory I'm putting out there!

~~~
openfuture
Tbh I didn't want to say too much about myself but it's sort of useless info
anyway.

Mostly it's about the emotional connections I made with people many times my
age (at the time), the fact that I was treated based on the way I communicated
and prejudice was completely arbitrary (gnomes suck etc.) Basically a lot of
intangibles in my way of thinking that developed during that time which would
have been significantly different if I had spent that formative time in the
physical realm with kids from the same cultural bubble and in the same place
mentally.

It made me want to travel, a lot.

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edpichler
Guys, what tool usually is used to create beautiful papers like this, Latex or
Adobe Indesign, or other?

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mememachine
why are they interested in regulation?

