
The Poaching of a Talented Intern - argumentum
http://argumentum.posterous.com/167104440
======
pfisch
This whole thing raises a bunch of red flags imo.

First of all you guys seem to be very morally flexible in general. There needs
to be a lot of trust in employer-employee relationships.

"I totally understand about not wanting to go back on your word. But remember,
you aren't really doing that. When you signed the contract, you really
believed that you wanted that job. Now you dont. Human being can change their
mind, it's not ethically wrong to do so."

This is like saying you aren't responsible for any commitments you make and
can change your mind whenever you want. What if you change your mind about
paying your interns? I mean you totally intended to compensate them when you
hired them, but you know, you are a human being so you can really just change
your mind whenever. This combined with the massive cheap intern labor pool
makes you guys seem pretty sketchy. Like you basically want employees but you
don't want to pay them or share equity.

I don't know if those things are true, but that is the vibe I got. Also
bragging about stealing an intern from another company kinda reinforces that
image.

Also trying to develop the major parts of brand new systems with 8 interns and
3 full times sounds insane to me and kind of like you are just trying to get
tons of super cheap labor as if you can replace 1 experienced developer with 5
interns and get the same results. I'm not entirely sure what you intend to do
with a bunch of short term interns and like 3 fts to manage them while
simultaneously running an entire company but it certainly raises red flags.

~~~
argumentum
_Also bragging about stealing an intern from another company kinda reinforces
that image._

Stealing implies property. The point I made to Patrick was that human beings
are _not_ property.

~~~
pfisch
That was your title!

Poaching - Illegally hunt or catch (game or fish) on land that is not one's
own or is under official protection.

~~~
argumentum
Poaching is the standard term used to refer to convincing another company's
employee or future employee to leave for yours.

------
pwingo
Hello HN!

I'm Patrick from this thread. I agreed to having this thread published because
I thought it might do good for interns out there. Not everyone works for very
established tech companies, and there's inherently more risk in that. However,
there's a lot of potential to learn from the experience as well.

Some things that I hope people take away form this thread:

\- The dream is out there, but don't let anyone sell it to you easily. Do the
research, check your facts, and be aware. However, people in Silicon Valley
are generally good people, and they remember and understand what it is like to
be young and not know what to do. I always will.

\- Do what you think is the right thing: I would never have left my prior
engagement if my would-be boss had not okayed it (we had a very long
conversation at the time). This is a small world, and your word holds a lot of
weight. It's probably best not to throw your word around when you can't keep
your promises.

\- Take a risk, once you feel you're ready for it. By venturing into the
unknown, a lot could have happened to me, but I felt prepared to take on any
challenges. I am under the impression that not taking a conscious, calculated
risk (with positive expected value) is the biggest risk of all

Cheers, Patrick

~~~
tzs
> I would never have left my prior engagement if my would-be boss had not
> okayed it (we had a very long conversation at the time).

Once you broached the subject, did he really have any choice? At that point,
he has to question whether your heart would be in it if you came to work for
him, and whether you might bring down the rest of the team. At this point, you
are likely getting the OK regardless of whether it is just a minor
inconvenience to him or a major blow.

~~~
pwingo
I think it depends on the way you broach the subject. I made sure that he knew
my heart would be in whatever job I was doing, and that I would be perfectly
happy to remain in New York.

But, you make a valid point. The discussion itself makes it very hard to say
"no." I made serious errors in my judgement of the situation, and I wanted
this post to inform people about those errors so that they don't make them as
well.

I hope people (including myself) can learn both from what I did right and what
I did wrong.

~~~
argumentum
I'm obviously biased here. I don't think Patrick made errors because the
outcome for a personal standpoint will be greater due to the choices he made.

------
readymade
I initially bristled at the word "poaching", since it implies ownership. But
I'm actually far more repulsed by the fact that he laid the kid off just a few
days later. Ethics protip: don't try to convince someone to leave behind a
paying job offer and move across the country if you're on that shaky of
ground.

------
otakucode
I've never worked for a startup, or even interned for that matter, so I'm a
bit curious. I know it's illegal to have an unpaid intern work on anything
that actually has value to the business. Wouldn't that be difficult for a
startup? Is this law just generally flaunted or do startups have to take some
precautions?

~~~
46Bit
Generally SV interns are paid something on the order of $3000/month, higher at
the Googles and so forth.

~~~
philsnow
I don't know what Google internships pay these days, but when I did mine,
during those four months, I was paid in the same pay range as full time
employees in an equivalent position.

They even let me take three weeks of (unpaid) time off during my internship to
get married and go on my honeymoon.

------
hnwh
Patrick's version sounds less rosy

~~~
epoxyhockey
Yes, I feel like Patrick's version of the story should have been linked:
[http://startupquant.blogspot.com/2012/10/snapbite-or-how-
one...](http://startupquant.blogspot.com/2012/10/snapbite-or-how-one-becomes-
adult.html)

Reading the currently linked story implies that everything was rosy after
accepting the internship. But after reading his own account of being laid-off
shortly after taking the position, I would think that a humble founder would
be slightly embarrassed that they just recruited someone and had to lay them
off just days later. Why even publish this email chain?

~~~
argumentum
It is linked.. it is in the first paragraph of the article.

------
argumentum
I would like to add that if you read the first link in the article, I admit to
serious mistakes. I'm not posting this to paint a rosy picture of what
happened.. it sucked. In fact, that's why me and Patrick agreed to post
this... it was a learning experience to all involved.

I was a student my whole life until this startup, and I admit to naiveté, but
not maliciousness. And though I didn't intend to, I made terrible mistakes
that affected the lives of others, especially the interns. At the same time, I
saw an opportunity to meet and work with on equal terms with young and
talented hackers and undergrads (which was my comfort zone as a graduate
student).

I was lucky to get into YC (who isn't) and saw an chance to share this luck
with others. I was told time and time again by my co-founders that
productivity would suffer, especially since we didn't have a solid idea yet,
but I thought that the extra energy would help us get to that state in spite
of slowed productivity. For purely selfish reasons, I also anticipated that
this would make my own summer more enjoyable.

------
tzs
I'm curious what waiters would think of the startup's product. It sounds like
it would make it so the customer doesn't need to interact with their waiter to
order, and that the software would also take over much of the role of
recommending items to the customer.

That leaves the waiter to just be someone to carry food to the table.

I'd expect people would tip such waiters less, or even not at all. This would
probably annoy the waiters. Would that be enough to sink it, or are waiters
low enough on the restaurant totem pole that the restaurant owners would still
be interested?

~~~
argumentum
_That leaves the waiter to just be someone to carry food to the table._

Or, it could give them more time to talk to and engage with customers on a
more equal level.

------
dinkman
Cool article -- I think the most important thing going into any job is that
you're absolutely enthralled with the opportunity.

Patrick, it's never easy and the real world is complicated. As much as "YOLO"
has become overplayed, I do believe that time is our greatest asset.

As for hiring interns based on emails... well... :)

------
nedwin
Just so I'm clear this is what I understand of the situation:

You convinced a guy to reneg on a contract he had signed to join your company.

You convinced him by telling him what a great opportunity your company could
offer him.

A few days later you let him go because you couldn't sustain him with work.

Am I missing something?

~~~
argumentum
No, nothing missing. Except that the knowledge that we couldn't sustain his
work was not available when we made the offer.

That is life. That is risk. That is startups.

If you want to do something great, risk is a necessary condition, because
everything ordinary could be done by just hard work and no risk..

------
kami8845
I enjoyed reading both blog posts. Thanks for the transparency, Patrick and
Arjun

