
How I Feel as Young Father Involved in Early-stage Startup - VuongN
http://nguonthieng.com/thirty-ba-muoi/my-dear-daughter.html
======
Tyrannosaurs
"My dear Daughter, Wait for me."

Of all the things that might happen, much as we'd like it to be different, I
can guarantee that this is one which won't happen.

However upsetting it may be now (or looking back in the future), time isn't
going to wait for you and all those firsts, all those events and experiences
you miss, won't wait and won't happen again.

We tell ourselves it isn't a choice but for many of us it is. Most of us could
earn enough money to support our family comfortably in a relatively regular 9
- 5 job. We might not be personally as satisfied and we might not be as
financially well off, but we can choose one possible version of our life over
another.

It's absolutely fair to say that you have to balance the needs of being a
"good" father (which let's remember is a subjective term in many ways),
against your own personal needs (and indeed the needs of your partner, the
rest of your family and so on), but most people reading this board are
fortunate enough that there genuinely is an element of choice.

No-one should tell you that working long hours so your child need never go
without (or so you're personally happy and the time you spend with them you do
so without resentment) is better or worse than coaching their sports team and
being there every bath time, but whatever you decide to do, I think the most
important thing is to accept that you're doing it because you made a conscious
decision - ultimately that's going to be the only way you'll be at peace with
it.

And if you haven't made a conscious decision, the for heavens' sake sit down
with your other half and do so. Of all the outcomes, doing what you're doing
without thinking about what you want and what works best for your family maybe
the only truly bad one.

~~~
jdbernard
> We tell ourselves it isn't a choice but for many of us it is. Most of us
> could earn enough money to support our family comfortably in a relatively
> regular 9 - 5 job. We might not be personally as satisfied and we might not
> be as financially well off, but we can choose one possible version of our
> life over another.

I'm currently in the 9-5 job and maybe I'm just a whiner, but I feel the same
as this guy. I hate the commute through rush hour traffic that I am required
by the time window to make. I hate that once I get to the office I sit in a
8'x8' cube, with two 8'x4' desks taking up 50% of the space. I hate that I've
just been reassigned to a new cube, same size, same desks, but now with a
structural 4x4 pillar taking up another 25% and my back to the "door".

I hate that I spend all day patching the same kinds of holes again and again
without the authority to fix the root problems. I hate that I have no real
ability to influence the direction of my organization. Without agency it
become very difficult to keep caring about the product. I hate that nobody
else cares either. I work purely to support my family. That is the only
reason. I used to love writing software, and I still do, but I hate my job. I
hate that I feel like everything that makes me who I am is being slowly ground
away into nothing.

I get home with time for the kids but I have nothing left. My mental tank is
completely empty. I almost can't get up in the mornings, I don't want to get
up. If it wasn't for my wife and kids I wouldn't get up. Somehow this
wonderful, exciting process of solving problems and finding solutions to
people's needs has turned into torture. I'm on a sinking ship and am too
burdened with responsibility to jump off. So I'm frantically trying in my
spare time to build a raft so I can find my own island. I feel like I'm racing
against time. I have to finish the raft before I have a mental break and land
my family on welfare and me on a psychologist's couch.

There are great things about my job, those benefits that you mention: 40 hours
a week (well, 50 including the commute), an above-average salary (my wife can
spend her quality time teaching and raising our kids), job security (we've
been planning to end-of-life the product for longer than I've been here), a
reasonable boss (who is just as powerless to change things as I am).

I guess I'm not really disagreeing with you, just sharing an admittedly
depressed view from the other side. We do have a choice, and right now my
choice is to pull late nights after the kids go to bed. I'm scrambling to
create my own software that I can sell so I don't have to go to this 9-5 which
you advocate for OP.

~~~
japhyr
Having a job you hate is not beneficial to you or your family in the long run,
other than keeping food on the table. You don't want to look around the day
your kids leave the house and feel like you have lost yourself completely, and
no one in your family wants to see that either.

Have you started to look for other work? It's not easy to throw a job search
on top of everything else on your plate, but if it gives you some of your own
life back, it could be well worthwhile.

I have a 3-year-old son, and it's been an interesting ride. This year was
supposed to be more relaxing because we got into a better living situation,
but then my wife was getting bored staying at home every day. So she got a
really interesting job, but the job ended up being way more involved than
either of us expected. So our schedules are pretty hectic, but it's worth it
to see her mentally stimulated and avoiding the professional detachment that
can come from stay-at-home-parenting.

I have some really interesting personal projects going, which have been
affected by family stuff. I have responded by stretching out the timeframe on
these projects. That is better than giving up these projects entirely, and it
is way better than ignoring my family in order to finish the projects.

If you limit yourself to one or two kids, your kids will be grown up and out
of the house in no time, and you'll never get that time back with them. "Out
of the house" doesn't mean 18 and living somewhere else, it can mean 6 and in
school most of the day, or 12 and in all kinds of activities all the time.
Those early years are prime family time; I hope everyone is able to let
themselves enjoy that period of life.

~~~
jdbernard
I agree, and I've done that. In the last 5 years I have been at 4 different
jobs. Life-work balance, technical competence, and competitive compensation,
choose two. That about sums up my experience in that timeframe. I've only been
in my current position for 8 months, so on the one hand I feel like I
shouldn't bail this quickly. On the other hand, man have things changed from
the impression I had when I started.

I have looked at other jobs, and I'm thinking about picking up the search
again, especially given the volume of mail I get from recruiters. Basically
though I have given up on finding a job that matches what I want out of life.
I feel a bit ungrateful because there _is_ so much opportunity out there.
People with our skills are in high demand. But after the last few years I have
decided that the only reliable way to find a company that values what I value
is to create it myself.

------
josefresco
There is no amount of money that can make up for missing dinner times, bed
times, play times and even bad times that you experience with your kids.

Don't fool yourself into thinking "once I get this right, I'll have all the
time in the world to spend with my kids". This will never happen, and if it
does it will be too late to form that close bond, and share your life with
your kids.

I'm in to work (my own business) at 7:30, leave by 5 at the latest and make
sure to drop all my stress/anxieties at the door. I have weekends off, and
rarely miss events or chances to ditch work and support my two girls.

~~~
dustinbrownman
Do you feel like your colleagues secretly look down on you because of this? I
work with all single, younger folks, and while they're always supportive, I
can't help but feel like I'm seen as not pulling my wait. Almost certainly a
projection on my part, but I'm curious if others with strong family priorities
feel the same.

~~~
Loughla
I'll answer with a question; does that matter?

When I had a kid, I worried what the other individuals at my level would think
when I started taking vacation regularly, and paired my work day down to 8-5.
I know that one, who I used to work incredibly closely with, looks down on my
hours now, and believes that there is no way that I can still be productive in
8 hours instead of the 12 he pulls every day.

After a bit, though, I realized that co-workers' opinions only matters as long
as I'm at my current job, and that I can replace them at a moments notice,
whereas it's harder (and costlier) to replace my partner and kids.

Priorities realigned, I know my work output, my superiors know my work output,
the rest be damned.

~~~
npizzolato
Very well said. Realizing you can't please everyone has been very freeing. You
have to decide who's opinions matter to you and who's, frankly, just don't. If
your co-workers are going to be bitter that you don't constantly put in absurd
hours, maybe their opinion shouldn't be important to you.

------
tijs
There is no rule that people working at startups need to work more hours than
anybody else for the startup to 'be real'. Do yourself a favor and close up
shop at 6 and have dinner with your family. Your weekly productivity will go
up as your 'restless soul' finds the peace it needs. Your happiness levels
will go up and your effective productivity will follow suit.

~~~
dvirsky
I've worked in two early stage start-ups since I became a dad a few years ago,
as employee 1 and 2. I do a few things to help me stay involved as a father:

1\. Unless there's a real emergency, which is rare, I leave the office around
6-7, even if I still have work planned for today. It's not really early but it
leaves me a couple of hours with my kids (I live really close to work, like a
10 minute motorcycle ride).

2\. If I still have urgent work to complete, I just continue work from home
after they are in bed and I've spent some time with my wife. If you have to
work late, this makes for more productive midnight-crunching, because you're
at home with your family, you've eaten a proper dinner and not some pizza, had
a shower, etc.

3\. Once a week I leave work early (around 4pm) and pick my kids up from day
care, and I dedicate my entire afternoon to having fun with them. Of course
not every early stage start-up would agree to that, but luckily both my last
employers were start-ups founded by young dads as well, and they were
understanding, and do this themselves as well.

~~~
conorh
6-7pm seems very late to me, but I guess it depends what time you start at,
and what time your kids go to sleep at. That wouldn't leave me much time with
my kids. I usually stop work around 4:30 in order to have enough time with the
kids before bedtime.

~~~
bentcorner
I'm the same way (leave around 4:30). For awhile in my career I was coming
home around 7, and my wife still reminds me about it from time to time, and is
thankful I come home earlier now.

------
silverbax88
As a parent (of now a teenager who is barreling towards college) - I would
advise to work a lot, but work will always be there. Your kids will not. Your
life should be what you do when you are not working - not the other way
around.

Many years ago, I was working 80+ hour weeks, week after week, and my daughter
was very young. Consistently, I would not even SEE her from Thursday morning
until Saturday afternoon.

I burned out on that job. I felt shell-shocked. I went to dinner with my wife
and realized that we had grown apart. I hated that. I hated missing my
daughter growing up.

I hated that my daily thoughts were about work, what was happening with work,
and that my interactions with my coworkers had overridden my interaction with
my family.

So I decided that my life would revolve around my family, and who I was
outside of work, not the other way around. Over the years I have changed jobs,
started companies, had wild success, had some failures, but through it all I
felt even-keel because it all felt like my LIFE was the same. The cubicles,
the coworkers, the employees, those all change but my wife and daughter, the
life we share, that has been constant. I actually don't feel like I've changed
jobs at all even though in reality I've worked at about 6 different places and
started 2 companies.

Don't think that work and success will make it alright in the end. It won't.
Don't believe people who think you are slacking because you aren't working 100
hours a week. Those people aren't executing efficiently. I can promise you
this is true because I have left a trail of Type A 'go-go-go' personalities in
my wake because they couldn't match my output and drive, even though they were
burning midnight oil and I was at home watching Jeopardy! with the fam.

I guess what I'm trying to say is don't listen to all of those people who are
making horrible mistakes. Work hard, but read 'The Power of Full Engagement'
by Tony Shwartz and realize that you can work like mad and relax and you will
beat the crap out of everyone around you.

~~~
omilu
thanks for this! best thing i read all day.

------
justinpaulson
No one's tombstone says "Devoted Employee". I realized when my daughter was
born that I don't have to achieve anything in this world other than to make
her life wonderful. Me being there is part of that. I have also realized as
I've grown older that we are all just going to die. I had focused for a long
time on establishing myself, on building something, on achieving some
financial or personal goal, and then it all hit me that it really won't
matter. The thing I really need to focus on is enjoying every moment of my
life before it is over. And being with my family is the most enjoyment I ever
feel. Now, obviously everyone doesn't feel the same way or have the same
priorities and I'm not telling anyone how they need to feel, but personally
this realization has lifted a weight off of my shoulders and caused me to
enjoy life more and more every day.

Edit: That being said...I usually make sure to leave work at 5, and if I still
feel like I need to do some more, I wait until I put my daughter to bed to
fire up the laptop.

------
davedx
As a contractor who's interested in startups and who has a 6 month daughter, I
can certainly empathize. Throughout all of my crazy ideas, side projects,
contracts in different timezones, bits of overtime, all of it, I've constantly
kept a check on myself that I don't spend too much time away from my family. I
decided not to pursue a potential CTO position at a promising startup because
it might have required me to work abroad for months at a time.

One of the things that has influenced me here was an article that did the
rounds a few years ago. I think it was this one, "Top five regrets of the
dying" [1]:

"2\. I wish I hadn't worked so hard.

This came from every male patient that I nursed. They missed their children's
youth and their partner's companionship."

Do not miss your kids growing up, you might regret it forever.

Good luck! :)

[1] [http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2012/feb/01/top-
five...](http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2012/feb/01/top-five-regrets-
of-the-dying)

~~~
czbond
Your situation is mine exactly. I founded 2 startups, one died - one is going
strong, but I left to create a better balance. The "regrets of the dying" was
the exact article that made me re-shape everything. I've even turned down some
VPE/CTO roles to avoid the endless barrage of work.

------
lkrubner
I think Paul Graham summed up the situation fairly well when he wrote:

"Economically, you can think of a startup as a way to compress your whole
working life into a few years. Instead of working at a low intensity for forty
years, you work as hard as you possibly can for four. This pays especially
well in technology, where you earn a premium for working fast."

and this:

"Combine all these multipliers, and I'm claiming you could be 36 times more
productive than you're expected to be in a random corporate job."

and the reasons why we might want to do a startup:

"For example, one way to make a million dollars would be to work for the Post
Office your whole life, and save every penny of your salary. Imagine the
stress of working for the Post Office for fifty years. In a startup you
compress all this stress into three or four years. You do tend to get a
certain bulk discount if you buy the economy-size pain, but you can't evade
the fundamental conservation law. If starting a startup were easy, everyone
would do it."

[http://www.paulgraham.com/wealth.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/wealth.html)

That essay can be read both as an inspiration and as a warning. On the
positive side, it is good to realize how much you can achieve in a few short
years. On the negative side, you must be wholly focused on one thing during
those few short years. The rest of your life needs to put on hold.

A personal anecdote: I am a bit of a news junkie, and I typically spend an
hour or two a day reading the news, but when I had my own startup, I gave up
reading the news. For the years 2003 to 2004, and for most of 2006, I rarely
read the news. That was a huge change of personal habits for me. But avoiding
the news was important for me to stay focused. I would write code for 12 hours
a day, sometimes 14 hours a day. I think one has to have a very narrow focus
during the first year or two of a startup.

~~~
kimdouglasmason
Most startups fail. Throwing some of the best years of your life away and
shirking parental responsibilities for a remote chance of a payoff is simply a
dangerous form of gambling.

Paul Graham is basically just talking his own book. His model is to fund a
heap of cheap companies that overwork work young, naive people. Most of these
companies fail. The occasional one succeeds enormously which more than covers
the costs of the failures. Meanwhile, the starry-eyed young employees often
don't notice the system is rotten until their thirties.

I was once in the SF startup world, and it's a pretty disgusting place. It's
sexist, extremely ageist, intolerant of actual diversity, and anti-family. The
sooner that particular culture dies (and make no mistake, it's dying), the
better.

It's also lazy capitalism; it loads as much risk as possible onto the
employees instead of those providing the capital, and many of the twenty-
somethings love it. Machismo (look at how hard I work) and confirmation bias
abound.

You're being played, folks.

~~~
vishnugupta
This. I couldn't but agree with every single sentence you've written (though I
haven't worked at SF)!

I almost fell into this trap while I was _inspired_ to work for a super cool
team within a bigger company; a la start-up within a giant. I, unfortunately,
got inspired enough that I ignored my new born, didn't see him grow up. I
realized that I was being played just in the nick of time (after an year).

Irony is that now I'm in a real start up for almost two years and these two
years have been best years of my life, both professionally and personally. I
get to work on something that's really challenging and rewarding and at the
same time I get to spend a few hours of high-energy time with my son, wife and
family (I also am very active reader).

All this just because I figured out how to balance by spending sane hours at
work and work at home late night once in a while when everyone is asleep!

My take away from this experience is; after your needs are taken care of to a
comfortable extent never trade time for anything. Not for money, not for
equity not for anything. Especially if you have a young family. Watch your
child grow spend time with her; children develop emotional attachment by the
time they are 5 and it only comes with spending time.

Even if you don't have family don't trade your time; go see the world, read
something new, learn something interesting. But don't give away your time.

------
lynchdt
My son is a few months old and I work for an early-stage start-up. Man, stop
coding at 2am - what you're hacking will need re-hacking in the morning. Go
home to your daughter. There will always be tasks on your board. The only sure
thing is your daughter will grow up - quicker than your start-up will fail.

~~~
rralian
Oh it's quite likely his startup will fail before his daughter grows up. Same
for all of us. That's just the numbers.

------
laureny
It's a bit of a disturbing read for a couple of reasons:

\- Going to an early stage start up as a young father is not a sacrifice, it's
a selfish act. You are thinking more about yourself and what you want to do
(and not do) rather than what's best for your family. Hate the idea of a
9-to-5 job? Well, suck it: the regular hours and clockwork and guaranteed
paycheck will go a long way toward making your family more stable and stress
free. Maybe it's a good time to also ask yourself if there are no hidden
reasons behind choosing this line of work. I know I've seen fathers do this
because they didn't realize they were not interested in the chores involved in
raising a young age infant.

\- I'm guessing the infant is less than two years old (the text mentions
diapers) so I'm shocked that this text is not giving credit to who really,
really deserves it: the Mom. At that age, the infant doesn't really care much
whether Daddy is around at night time or to play with toys, but this father
really needs to realize how much stress his work situation is putting on his
wife.

I have a two year old son and I quit the start up I was working at before his
birth. I felt it just wouldn't be fair to my wife to stay there. There will
always be start ups to join should I ever want to try this again, but a child
growing up is an opportunity that doesn't occur often in one's life.

~~~
VuongN
I wrote this during a very tough run at the startup. Perhaps let me share a
little bit more so that is it in context.

First and foremost, most credits, indeed go to my wife and family. The reason
why I didn't mention my wife in this piece other than "You’re the only cool
shade in the hottest of days/For a weary soul/that your Mother saved many
years ago" is because this was a letter to my daughter. This piece was part of
a collection of my thoughts from last year (when I was thirty) and I did thank
my wife and family when I publish it: [http://vuongnguyen.com/thirty-ba-
muoi.html](http://vuongnguyen.com/thirty-ba-muoi.html).

I'm 31 last month and I've been with my wife for 11 years now. We're best
friends in many way and we support each other in our own dreams. Before my
daughter was born, I was mostly doing consulting. I made sure I spent time
walking and taking care of my wife. I made it a point to never miss a doctor
appointment or any pregnancy/childbirth classes we have together. I really
appreciated every step of the way.

Then my daughter was born, I stopped accepting new clients (as mentioned in
the piece). Spent time with my wife and newborn. Then I stayed home for
another three months with my daughter so my wife could return to work.

When I joined the startup, after much discussion and encouragement from my
wife, I also made a promise to never miss any doctor appointment. That is
still true. I feel blessed that I was able to afford much flexibility with my
family and I never take it for granted. I know many other folks who go through
a much more difficult time.

I think there is much more I could do and of course I'll continue to do my
very best to be a good person every day. This was written as a personal
thought and shared because I wanted to feel for myself and others, that we are
not sitting alone on that home-bound train, if that makes any sense.

I hope that clarifies things a bit more.

-V.

------
jader201
This is a good reminder, to me, of why I have chosen to delay any ambitions of
my own startup until after my kids are grown and no longer want to spend (as
much) time with me.

However, I think it's important to remember that we can just as easily get
caught in the trap of being present with our family, but not "present",
because we're stuck in a 9-5 job that is sucking the soul out of us.

I'm currently in a position that consists about 80% meetings and 20%
reading/responding to email, when I would so much rather be coding. I come
home feeling unfulfilled, and am irritated way too easily.

Some people can still cope with a job like this and separate themselves from
it as to not affect their home life. I wish I was one of those, but I'm not.
And since I recognize that I'm not, I have chosen to find -- and have found --
another job that without a doubt will not have this impact on me.

If you're in the same boat, and are not able to cope and separate yourself
from the drudgery of your 9-5 job, find one that you enjoy better. And I
personally think it's worth even taking a cut in pay, if you can and if you
have to.

------
normloman
Oh for fucks sake, go home. This is your kid we're talking about. If getting a
9 to 5 job means spending more time with your kid, I promise you won't regret
it. Better yet, keep your start up, just work a regular day. You only think
you need to work long hours. You don't. You'll be more productive just working
a regular schedule.

I can't believe we're even debating this. Reality check people: Your kids
should come before your job.

------
VuongN
A couple of friends from the HN community & IRC helped edit this piece. Just
thought I'd share with others as well.

~~~
karmajunkie
It's a beautiful piece. I well remember that same feeling. I've been meaning
for some time to write a piece about what my "startup dedication" (more
accurately, my workaholism) cost me: friends, divorce (and a lot of money with
that one), self respect, peace of mind... Always seem to have a difficult time
finding the words. It's good that you found your own words, but know when to
say when. It doesn't have to be this hard.

~~~
VuongN
Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me. I hope you have or will find your
words and your own happiness. Take care.

------
Killah911
Seriously! How are people giving "advice" to this guy? It's not a F#$%ing blog
post, it's a work of art... Do you guys write in to HBO after every episode of
Silicon Valley?

It's an great piece (IMHO) & if it helps you reflect, then it's done its job.
It's not a problem do be solved (yes, I know... that's what we do... but
really though....)

~~~
justinpaulson
Settle down guy, people are just discussing their feelings about the
situation. People do get on forums and discuss episodes of silicon valley
after they have aired, and they discuss it with their friends/coworkers in
real life.

Are these comments not the appropriate place to voice our
feelings/insights/experiences with the subject of the post??

~~~
Killah911
feelings/insights/experiences are fine. Comments were condemning the author
for staying at work till 2am.... that's just plain crazy to me. I wouldn't be
surprised if he took some creative licenses and that's totally OK to do in a
poem. I'm just glad that he shared a work of art which is relevant to our
community. If it evokes emotions, reflections, that's fine... If we look at it
as a blog post asking us to solve his problem for him, that's something else.
We don't need to solve the author's problem (i.e. by giving him advice on
finding work life balance).

Quite frankly, this piece made me think of the illusions we create for
ourselves. In some ways, we're happy to always be busy. I for one, wouldn't
really know what to do with "free" time (probably start another side project).

I agree that this is the place to discuss this matter. I guess I typically
hold HN to a higher standard and generally the comments are very insightful.

~~~
VuongN
I wrote this on the home-bound train one night during a tough time with the
startup. I assured you, no creative license here. The hours were pretty brutal
on a couple of occasions. I made sure that everything is well supported at
home first though.

I wrote this because I honestly was missing my daughter a lot and hope that
capture that feeling and put it into words. I do my best to take care of my
family and express my care to my love ones.

I think at the end of the day, we're all engineers, hackers, lovers etc. and
it's our nature to solve anything that seems like a problem coming our way.
This is why I decided to share it with everyone. Because I know that home-
bound train, I wasn't by myself and there were others who were on it with me.

Thank you for your kind words to me. I am flattered and somewhat embarrassed
when you call it "arts" though. I'm shy! I don't even call it poem because I
didn't want to offend those who truly dedicate themselves to the craft. I'm
simply a convert who wanted to share a feeling I captured.

Take care.

------
amurph
So, I am the child of a startup founder. Roughly a year before I was born my
dad founded a startup. Throughout most of my early childhood he would
routinely be working for 10+ hours at the office and then work after me and my
sibling were put to sleep. Plus, he was usually travelling 4-5 days a month
trying to pitch his idea (we didn't live in a big center for startups).
Basically, he wasn't there.

I love my dad. A lot. He is still one of my favorite people, and when I come
home it's always a joy to talk to him. But, he just wasn't around all that
often as a kid, and I know he really tried, but you just can't be in two
places at once. Honestly, I think it was a lot harder on my mom, what with the
financial difficulties (especially when the startup eventually went belly up
for a bit) raising me and my sibling on her own, all that stuff. I'm not angry
at my dad, he did something he really wanted to do, and worked really hard at
it, but you know you can't stop growing when you're five.

The only piece of 'advice' I have is try to carve out a regular time for being
with your kids. Every Friday night, my dad would take me and my sibling down
to the lake, and we'd get food, and talk, and play at an arcade (I still can
totally beat him at Space Invaders, by the way), and that w as a really
meaningful time for me and my sister, especially on the weekends he was
working, or when we found him passed out in his chair after working all night.

------
ryhanson
I too am a young father, my daughter is almost 10 months old. Last week I just
recently left the startup I was a part of. I was getting paid an alright
salary for it being an early startup who had raised funding or launched yet. I
made it a point to make sure I didn't stay late at the office unless it was an
absolutely necessity. So I didn't have the extreme hours to deal with, but
rather the uncertainty... Not knowing if your next paycheck is going to be one
of your lasts or not is not a way I want to live. Having a family to provide
for is a bigger and much more important job than grinding out code for a
startup that has the potential to be big.

Because of the uncertainty and risks that come with working in a startup, I
pursued other options. I ended up talking with a smaller software development
agency here that has the startup atmosphere in the office (doesnt feel like
some corporate job). They are very well off and there is very little chance of
them failing or running out of work. The increased salary and full benefits
were easily enough for me to leave the startup where I had a slightly less
salary, but 20% equity. The 20% equity definitely had the potential to have
some huge payoffs, but I wouldn't see those for atleast 5 years, and I much
rather have guaranteed stability now rather than hoping for it to come later.

------
babo
Cats in the cradle, about the same subject.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-s5r2spPJ8g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-s5r2spPJ8g)

------
bronson
"How can I explain to you The Gods and Angels had clipped Daddy’s wings?"

Because they didn't. Daddy's own choices and values have apparently clipped
his wings. Hope you're OK with it.

It's nice writing but ultimately it reads like a thin excuse. I hope daddy
uses better time management in the future.

------
jmspring
"Being the “professional” in a startup world, pushing last hopes of
entrepreneurial youth"

If you feel that "being professional" includes the need to push yourself and
miss events you can't recapture, it's not being "professional" \-- especially
if you are an employee. Startups that push the "we are a family -- we work
hard, play hard, stay late together" are in a sense delusional -- yes the
thrill of building a company is compelling, but unless it is your own company
- you are sacrificing yourself unnecessarily for someone else's benefit. There
will always be another startup, but early months of a child's life where
changes are there daily, hourly.

------
thom
Bill Foster: I'm the Bad Guy?

Sergeant Prendergast: Yeah.

Bill Foster: How'd that happen? I did everything they told me to. Did you know
I build missiles? I helped to protect America. You should be rewarded for
that. But instead they give it to the plastic surgeons, you know they lied to
me.

Sergeant Prendergast: Is that what this is about? You're angry because you got
lied to? Is that why my chicken dinner is drying out in the oven? Hey, they
lie to everyone. They lie to the fish. But that doesn't give you any special
right to do what you did today. The only that makes you special is that little
girl. Now let's go. Lets go!

------
mantis369
I think you have to pick one. Startup or kids. You can work at a burnout pace
for 5 years in the hope of getting rich, or you can be there for your young
children. In my opinion, if you're going to try the startup thing, there's
nothing stopping you from having kids afterwards. Except that if your
startup(s) didn't succeed, your skills might translate perfectly into a career
that can sustain a family. And having gone that route, you might have missed
out on opportunities to bond with a good partner.

~~~
smileysteve
Or you can work at your startup at a sustainable pace.

From a lean startup perspective, the more burnout pace you work at, the less
likely you are to close the feedback loop and actually produce the right
feature. From a Mythical Man hour perspective, you're more likely to be less
productive the more burnout pace that you try to maintain.

~~~
mantis369
I don't think VCs are interested in anyone who wants to work at a sustainable
pace. Also, the piece we're discussing doesn't make it sound like the author
works at a sustainable pace.

------
ThomPete
When I moved to New York to join 80/20, I left my then girlfriend and our son
who was 3 back in Denmark for almost a year.

A lot of my (now) wifes friends told her that I was crazy to do that, that
their husbands would never do that to them or their kids and that I chose
career instead of family.

The thought of disrupting ones life for something uncertain is to many the #1
fear and is the reason why many say "we would love to live and work abroad"
but when it comes down to it they don't.

My thinking one the choice I made was tactially problematic, it is never a
good idea move away from certainty in the short run. But strategically I feel
like I made the right decision and for a very simple reason.

Your kids grow up and while they might adore you when they are young they will
also grow up and become their own individual.

And while I definitely want to see them grow up I also want to be there with
them when they are older and perhaps even be something other than a dad.

Lifes complicated and there are no right or wrong choices. All we can do is
trust our intution and that might sometimes be trusting what seems counter
intuitive.

We all now live together in NY and had another son. And while I certainly
understand the difficulty of finding the balance between you and your family
but never forget that there will be a point where you are not that type of
father anymore and by that time if you are not careful you loose whats just as
important as seeing your kids grow up, you loost your ability to define you as
more than a dad.

------
ttcbj
I really appreciate this poem. I have a two year old and a six month old, and
I had no conception of how I committed I would feel to my children until I had
them.

I actually took some risks and worked super hard in my mid-20s to mid-30s,
prior to having kids. I am so glad I did it then.

Another way to read this post, if you are young, is as a warning - you may
think it is scary or hard to take risks now, but go for it. When you have
children, it will be much, much harder. Every minute you are working, you will
feel torn that you aren't with your kids, and every minute you are with your
kids, you will feel torn that you aren't working (to provide for them). If you
can use your twenties to gain some financial freedom and control of your time,
it is really worth it.

I went through a period of thinking that I had 'wasted' my 20s on hard work,
while everyone else was partying/backpacking/skiing/whatever. I now realize
that my 20s (and early 30s) were an investment for a vastly better reward -
the time and financial freedom to be with my family in my late 30s/early 40s
when my children are young. I couldn't be happier with the outcome of those
choices, and I didn't really see it coming, because I did not understand the
depth of feeling I would have for my children.

But for the young people out there in their 20s - your opportunity cost will
never be lower. Go for it. Invest in yourself. Working until 10pm on something
you care about won't always be without painful tradeoffs. Forgoing income to
try to start something won't always be so easy.

------
brikmaster
I like the sentiment. When I started my first true startup, after being an
executive in a high profile one, we put our own capital in and then literally
6 months later, we conceived triplets spontaneously while having a 2 year old
son.

While I was terrified of what would happen with the startup and the family,
there was no question to me that we had to stay on the path. That startup
ultimately was sold in a good outcome and I am now two startups past that. My
kids are now 11 and 9*3. They know that I work in startups and many times they
visit the office and hangout.

While I have some regrets, like flying to Europe every 2-3 weeks post
acquisition for over a year, I want my kids to know that I do what I do
because I love it and it is how I put bread on the table. While I don't wish
my life choices on them, I want them to know that being the master of their
own destiny is a choice their dad has fully embraced whatever they decide.

All of that said, even when I was flying to Europe, I made it a point to move
heaven and earth to be home with them every single weekend during that period
of time and was actively and highly engaged while at home. While you can
choose to work hard, you also have to choose to be a great father and role
model IMO.

Great piece.

------
orky56
Having been recently married and with no kids yet, I am fortunate enough to
have a supportive wife who is letting me pursue a partially selfish dream of
founding a startup. The glamor of the pursuit has long since faded. Execution
is my hammer for every type of hurdle while Time lurks in the shadows
conspiring with Denial and Self Doubt. I hope that I'll have the perfect
lifestyle that will allow me to spend quality time with the ones I have chosen
to be with and have brought into this world. Quality time can only exist if
they are provided for with more than just love, but also a roof over their
head, money to pay bills, and food on their plates. What we all seek is
security and founding a startup puts the burden on you more often than a
corporate job. There is no get rich quick scheme here but I have to try to see
if I can achieve immortality by killing myself through hard work. If I am a
mere mortal, I will succumb to the daily grind having a bit more certainty of
my capabilities and a steady paycheck.

------
beat
Two weeks ago, my daughter asked me if she could give up on college for a
while and come work with me on my startup instead. She's 20 now. I couldn't be
more pleased or proud.

For years, I worked in "safe" enterprise jobs, rather than the risk of
startups, for the financial security of my children. They're adults now, and
I'm starting over in many ways. I'm twice the age of the "startup founder"
trope. It feels very natural to me now.

As for my daughter... she has the entrepreneurial spirit. She wants to be
challenged, to learn and grow in ways she won't get to do in college. Working
for me, she'll get to do things she wouldn't get to do in a slower, safer
business. And she has a strong self-interest, too - if it succeeds, I'll
become very wealthy, almost as a side effect. As my heir, she eventually
benefits from that as well. So from the point of view of both her learning and
her long-term financial security, helping me is the best thing she can do for
herself. Smart kid.

------
VuongN
I've read everyone's comment thus far. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and
for allowing me the honor to be part of your discussion.

I figured that we're not trying to find a correct answer here. But knowing our
community of engineers, hackers, lovers etc. we'd always trying to solve any
problems coming our way :)

My humble opinion is: feelings are honesty trying to express themselves. Even
if we can't solve the problem of "feelings", I'm quite happy we can search for
it together as a group.

I wrote this piece during a tough part of the startup last year. I recently
looked at it again and realized it wasn't just about me but rather about all
my friends, I actually do refer to you folks on here as "friends", with the
common dream.

I think at some point on one train-ride home or another, we've searched for
some sort of understanding and hope to know that we're not the only one.
Today, I'm happy to know that my "friends" do share the same feeling at one
point or another. And we are not alone.

-Vuong.

------
kungfooey
Nope. Nope. Nope. She won't wait for you, mate. Time doesn't wait. If you want
to be with your family, _they_ have to be your priority before any fame,
glory, and wealth from your ability to churn out ideas or sling some code.

Don't live a life of regret. Make do with less. Maybe get there slower, but be
a happier person.

I'm in a similar situation in that I have two young children (under 5) and I
am the co-founder of a small-ish startup in healthcare. I make sure to leave
every day at 5pm so I can be with my kids for a few hours. If I have a busy
week, I'll get up earlier (5 or 6am) and get my work done earlier in the day.

If additional work needs to get done, it gets done after they go to bed.

Importantly, my co-founders also have families and value them as I do. If that
were not the case, I would not be involved in this company.

------
laohu
The endless "hours matter" debate.

For me, it's been a revolution at RescueTime. I had a 5 year old and new born
when I started.

You structure your day right, you should be able to get done what is useful in
a day's work in around 5-6 hours for most days. Otherwise, you need to
restructure your day. You're doing something wrong-- excess communications,
excess task-switching, excess research, over-engineering or something.

By consistently paying attention to getting the most out of the hours between
0830/0900 and 1530/1600, I am able to get at least 3-4 hours a day with my
kids. There's the odd day where I get back on the computer after they are in
bed.

The simple truth is you can restructure your work to match your life with
kids, you cannot restructure your kids to match your life with work.

------
guiye
this is a feeling that every father have: the contradiction between beeing
with our family and trying to make a better future for them, just find a
balance soon

------
__abc
I work in a rapid growing startup that requires more than 8 hours a day and I
have two young children. My priorities are

1 - Children 2 - Marriage 3 - Living arrangements / lifestyle (sans work) 4 -
Career (but I take my career VERY seriously, I've been an executive for 9
years and I'm 33)

My routine

1 - Alarm goes off at 4:30 am 2 - I pickup around the house, toss in laundry
as needed 3 - Catch the 5:45 am train to be into the office roughly @ 6:15 am
4 - I leave the office @ 5:30 pm to catch the 5:50 pm train to be home roughly
@ 6:15 pm 5 - I play with the kids 6 - We then eat dinner together as a family
7 - I bathe and put both kids to bed around 7:30 - 8:00 pm 8 - I help pick up
the rest of my house with my wife, it usually ends @ 8:30 pm (we talk a lot
while doing this) 9 - My wife and I sit down on the couch/porch/etc and hang
out for a few hours while I also work 10 - I'm usually in bed by 11 - 11:30 pm

If I have more work to do that evening I might have my laptop out while
hanging out with my wife or stay up later. This is usually 4 nights out of the
week.

Things that shift to "once in a while" given my priorities

1 - A full 8 hours of sleep 2 - Seeing that television show 3 - Seeing that
movie 4 - Random nights out with friends 5 - Etc

These simply just take a back seat.

Things I never miss, and spend as much time with as someone working a standard
9-5 (although I do head into the office earlier than most)

1 - My kids (first and foremost) 2 - My wife 3 - My house 4 - My career and
type of company I appreciate being involved with

To me, I keep the things that matter most and give up things that I found out
I didn't really need (for context, I never really watched a lot of
television).

This schedule works for me and I end up working 10 hours a day and never miss
a beat with my kids.

PS. I also about twice a day, for 5 minutes, FaceTime with my wife/kids while
at work. It's a nice break and a chance for me to see them during the day
given I miss them in the morning.

------
apierre
I have a 9 months old daughter. I've been trying productivity techniques for
years but I must say she has been the best motivator ever.

Knowing that I have to collect her from nursery, help with the bedtime
routine, I need to finish as much work as possible during the day, no time to
waste. At the beginning, it was just impossible for me to think finishing
working at 6pm but in fact, I just feel better in my mind and my productivity
skyrocketed since then.

Not to mention that I also stopped wasting time with bad projects and client.

Have a baby! Best pomodoro ever ;)

------
haily
What if, instead of "My dear daughter, Wait for me.", why not "My dear
daughter, join me.". It's the journey. Take your daughter with you on your
journey to build your experiences together. When she is ready, she will branch
off to continue with her journey. She will then learn from you and take your
grand children on her journey and so on...

------
Spooky23
You have to make choices.

I choose my wife, son & future kids as priority #1.

That choice came with costs -- I'd probably be the CIO of a pretty major org
at this point, but that means 10-12 hour days that I won't do.

That doesn't mean that life is over, it just means that you need to be more
strategic about opportunities, and may need to scope out some roles.

------
fasteo
Beautifully written. Exactly how I feel nowadays, but every time I think about
it, the great Walter White comes to my mind:

We are not doing it for our families; we are doing it because we f __cking
like what we do, we feel f __cking alive doing it and we are f __cking good at
it.

------
developer786
Not so long ago I posted a message I then reposted and managed a -4 Karma
somehow.

I was going to take a big leap in to a post with salaries far beyond what I
would pay myself. Many here told me to take the risk, go for it etc etc. But I
chose my family over a fat pay-check. No regrets!

------
rmgraham
I work from home for a startup. My daughter is in the next room, I can hear
her watching Curious George.

And I still teared up reading the poem, because I could have written it
myself.

I don't know about the author, but for me the startup part of the equation is
a symptom, not a cause.

------
dpeck
Intense, and newly sharpened, focus on earnings is a common trait of new
fathers. Its a beneficial trait, but one that has to be appropriately
governed.

A nice bit of prose about that struggle and the ways we coddle ourselves as we
get too far out of line.

------
angersock
From my mother's sleep I fell into the Startup,

And I hunched in its pixel mines unable to doze.

Sixty miles from home, loosed from its dream of life,

I ran into black tasks and the nightmare deadlines.

When I was canned they washed me out of the company with no equity.

(all apologies to Randall Jarrell)

------
digitalengineer
I think most people here have read REWORK, but for those that did not, there's
a chapter for the workaholic.
[http://37signals.com/rework/](http://37signals.com/rework/)

------
hajderr
Frankly, startup or no startup. You can only do so much work within a day.
With a bit of planning and discipline you can manage to stay effective and be
a part of the family while building your startup.

------
nasmorn
My rule is that I spend enough time with the kids if I rather go working than
be with them. That said I never work more than 45 hours a week and sometimes
only 30. Might not work if you do 60 or 80

------
sidcool
This has always been my quandary. What in an ideal life should a human do?
Dedicate his time to his professional dreams or to his family. Doing excess of
any induces a longing for the other.

~~~
whytaka
Desires that can be satisfied are blessings, are they not?

------
OneOneOneOne
Here is a calculation that might put things in perspective...

Your age + 25

This is how old you will be when a kid born this year graduates from college
(typical undergrad.)

If you are waiting to have kids add those years to your age.

------
maaku
Be there for your daughter, or you are not her father.

I feel sorry and pity for you.

I would suggest thinking about another job (and btw, it is 100% possible to
work normal hours at a startup).

------
marcelsalathe
Founders with kids: [http://priceonomics.com/founders-with-
kids/](http://priceonomics.com/founders-with-kids/)

------
koonsolo
I go to work for my family, and I go home for my family.

~~~
VuongN
A very short and sweet thought. Love it.

My wife and I have a pact: we'll live for our children and family but we'll
always continue to develop ourselves. This way, there is never a resentment
toward the people you love. I, too, work and go home for my family.

------
akras14
First comment on Hacker News. Related to this poem 100% and it brought tears
to my eyes. And I usually don't get poetry.

------
rjf1990
Even though I'm not a father I very much enjoyed this piece.

------
hrish2006
Hey thanks for sharing! . It's beautifully written.

~~~
VuongN
Thank you. I really appreciate the kind words. -V.

------
michaelochurch
Uncorrelated but perhaps relevant blog post I wrote this morning, on the value
of time: [http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2014/05/21/if-youll-
ever...](http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2014/05/21/if-youll-ever-die-
dont-apply/)

The only people who care about excellence are the excellent, and we almost
never get to call the shots (we're bad at politics). Since the people
evaluating our work are in no way qualified to assess excellence or even
slightly-better-than-mediocre-goodness, most of our work is just a commodity,
and the price is set by the winner's curse: schmucks who haven't learned
(either by raising children, or by having people close to them get sick and
die) how finite time is.

It's better to compete to excel than to compete to suffer, but the
software/startup world is run by people who don't value excellence in the
least, and who wouldn't be qualified to evaluate it even if they did. So that
steers us toward "compete to suffer" dynamics, also known as "fish frying"
([http://www.strikemag.org/bullshit-jobs/](http://www.strikemag.org/bullshit-
jobs/)).

