
Ask HN: What should I do in this situation? - minusthebrandon
So, I currently work for a company at a certain salary. I&#x27;ve worked there for two years now. As a condition of taking the job, I was allowed to work remotely when they moved their office (54 miles away from my house). The move was planned when I was interviewed.<p>Since then, we&#x27;ve gotten a new boss that wants everyone in the office more, including me. I told him we need to discuss my salary if he&#x27;s changing the conditions of the job I accepted. He&#x27;s been blowing me off for a few weeks now.<p>I haven&#x27;t received any raises there and I found out that they&#x27;re expanding the team and my salary is the lowest they&#x27;re willing to pay for a new person in my position.<p>What I want to know is, what should I do with this information? I&#x27;m afraid that if I ask for more money, they might fire me, since they&#x27;re hiring for my position anyway (for a different team, they say).<p>However, I don&#x27;t think it&#x27;s fair that I haven&#x27;t received a single raise and that I make the lowest amount for this position, especially after two years of nothing but great work.<p>What should I do? Any help would be appreciated.<p>EDIT: I received word from my boss about a gas card...
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patio11
They almost certainly won't fire you for asking for a raise. Like you said
yourself, your replacement would certainly be more expensive, and they'll lose
at least 3 months of productivity even if the replacement is adequate.

I'd start looking for other jobs and, in parallel, tell the boss that you
value the lack of the commute quite highly and that if they want you to
commute you'll be happy to consider their offer for what is essentially a new
job. If they suggest "Your current salary" you say "Hah, good one. No
seriously, what is your offer, knowing how valuable of an employee I am and
how difficult I would be to replace?"

More generally: most engineers who feel they are getting screwed are indeed
getting screwed. (And many engineers who feel adequately compensated are in
fact getting screwed but have psychological issues and asymmetric information
which makes this less than obvious.) People will NOT fix this for you. You
have to take responsibility for your own career.

P.S. Ducking meetings with you is a negotiating tactic! And it is _working_!
You have to summon a modicum of intestinal fortitude and say "Boss, the fact
of the upcoming move means my salary is going to get renegotiated. You get to
pick whether that renegotiation happens in your office or not."

~~~
gkoberger
Patrick (the commenter I'm replying to) happens to have written the best
article you'll ever read on the topic:

[http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-
negotiation/](http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/)

It really helps put things into perspective.

~~~
toomuchtodo
My brother recently tried Patrick's advice interviewing for a sysadmin
position at a small family business in the Chicago suburbs. When he attempted
to negotiate after they indicated they were offering him employment, his offer
was rescinded and they thanked him for his time.

This part of Patrick's article is still great advice in that regard:

"This means you need what political scientists call a commitment strategy: you
always, as a matter of policy, negotiate all offers. (In this wide world I’m
sure you can find a company who still makes exploding offers, where you get
one yay-or-nay and then the offer is gone. You have a simple recourse to them:
refuse them and deal with people who are willing to be professionals. You’re
not a peasant. Don’t act like one.)"

This I find to be a sticking point, and never forget: "You’re not a peasant.
Don’t act like one."

~~~
ryanSrich
Sounds like a win for your brother in my opinion. That company was probably an
awful place to work.

~~~
toomuchtodo
That was our consensus as well.

~~~
Mandatum
To be fair from a managers perspective this would act as a good filter, those
who are willing to demand negotiation over those who aren't are more likely to
want everything they can get in the current market (which is perfectly
reasonable). You're more likely to get those who are inexperienced in the job
market, or those who are so insecure/timid about their professional lives that
they are willing to take what they can get.

Which is great for an employer who doesn't care about his/her workers/

------
Sukotto
I was in somewhat of a similar position earlier in my career. I was afraid to
stand up for myself and ended up meekly accepting my employer's BS about how
there wasn't money in the budget for raises, but they liked me so much and
valued my work and can I please work just a little more unpaid overtime?

I gave away hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of salary for _nothing_
more than a smile and a thank you. And that's not counting the present value
of that money had I pooled it with the rest of my investments (nor the
opportunity cost of those extra hours worked). In fact the amount I "lost" by
being my company's bitch dwarfs my investment returns. And I could have had it
without taking on the much larger risks of the stock market. That's maybe the
most important lesson.

So don't make the same mistake as me. Get out there and look for a better job.
Always be looking for a better job[1]. Give each employer your full effort...
And don't hesitate to to jump ship the minute something better comes along.
Just like how they would not hesitate to lay you off if it made financial
sense to them.

[1] where we define "better" as "job that pays _a least_ the market rate; that
you enjoy; learning something that makes you more valuable to your next
employer."

You are a business just as much as your employer is. That means you promote
your service to potential buyers; understand the value of your service; and
charge what the market bear for your service

~~~
minusthebrandon
I totally get it. It's a complete mindset change and those are a little hard
to get started. Definitely appreciate the advice.

~~~
Sukotto
You're welcome, I hope you find it useful. And just in case it's not obvious,
let me point out that what you're getting here is free advice from strangers
on the internet. So please don't blindly follow anything here without taking
some time to seriously think through the possible outcomes and consequences.

\--

The first, small, step is to realize that you are the captain of your career.
Your boss might care a little bit, but is mostly concerned with his or her own
career prospects. Your company is a legal fiction that doesn't care about you
at all. If you want your career to be good, you either float along and hope to
get lucky, or you take charge of it yourself.

Personally I think you're likely to be ok. Even if you need to make some
career choices for long term strategy and taking the short term hit (like
accepting a smaller, or 0, increase than you're happy with so you can continue
paying your bills while looking for a better job)

If they are already planning to replace you then nothing you do is going to
help and you might as well start looking for another job.

If they are NOT planning to replace you, then I believe it's totally
reasonable for you to talk to them about level setting your salary to (at
least) the high end of what they currently pay plus offsetting your commute
costs (gas + wear&tear)...

AND start looking for another job. (Keeping in mind that you are not morally
or legally obligated to accept any job offers.)

For negotiating, the most important things to remember are:

\- What happens if you cannot find mutual ground with your boss? What are you
going to do? Walk out of your job or start commuting for the same salary? Can
you live with that until you find a different source of income?

\- Your own goals (eg, how much money do you want? What other perks are
important to you?)

For money, consider what you would reasonably expect to be paid if you were
coming into it with your current level of experience from a different company
(assuming no significant commute)

Separately consider how much someone would have to pay you to drive your
proposed commute, every day, during rush hour. How much would that need to be
feel like it's a worthwhile use of your time?

Summing those numbers gives you an idea of the _minimum_ baseline amount you
should aim for. If you can get that much, then you'll be reasonably happy. you
should, of course, try to get a higher number than that. DO NOT GIVE THAT
NUMBER TO YOUR BOSS

\- Your boss's goals. What does he care about? more importantly, what are you
in a position to give him that would make him want to make you happy?

The dark side to that, or course, is "what does your boss fear and how can you
take advantage of that" though personally I am unwilling to go there.

\- What other alternatives do you have RIGHT NOW in your hands? Do you have
significant savings? Do you have other sources of income?

Ok... this is getting too long and I'm enjoying the sound of my mental
"preaching" voice a little too much. Time to stop opining :)

Good luck! I hope you end up in a happier situation.

------
kjksf
Don't ever think of this as "what is fair".

This is a negotiation between you and employer and it comes down to supply &
demand, market value and who has the upper hand.

If you don't have another job lined up at same (or higher) salary, then the
company has the upper hand and you're too afraid to even ask for a raise
because you worry that you'll get fired.

As others said, you need to at least try to get another job. You can always
apply and not accept the offer but only by applying and going through the
process to the point of getting an offer you'll be able to answer the
following questions:

1\. how hard is it for you to get another job ?

2\. if you do get an offer, is it better or worse than the current job ?

If you do get a better offer then you can use it as a leverage to get a better
salary at your current company ("Hi boss. I really like working here but I'm
paid below my market rate. I have an opportunity to take another job paying $X
but I would rather stay here if you can match that salary. Your move.").

But when you do that, you have to be willing to take the other job if your
company says no. You can always wipe your tears with the additional dollar
bills.

------
sauronlord
You should have left 3+ months ago. Your not valued there.

No one gets a raise out of niceness. You get a raise because they're Damn
afraid you are going to leave.

If they don't push to promote you, then get out and promote yourself.

If they promote you, still get out and promote yourself harder.

Mind your own business.

------
davideschiera
Depending on the kind of job, remote working is a perfect way to get the job
done. If you feel this can be your case, then maybe your boss is not acting
very smart.

In terms of job alternatives, if you feel that you would need to commute
anyway, look around, I bet there are several open positions for which you
would be able to work remotely (in some cases you might trade something like 1
day a week at the office).

At the end, give your boss another chance to understand your situation, go
talk with him. It will be the ultimate way to know if that's the place you
still want to work at or not.

------
Turing_Machine
The gas card will pay for gas. It won't pay for wear and tear on your car and
the 2 hours (possibly much more, depending on traffic) that you're going to
lose every single workday.

Look at it this way: you're trading your time for their money. You're going to
increase your job-related time expenditure by 25% or more (if you normally
spend 8 hours working), plus incurring car expenses. It's going to take a
hefty raise to make up for that.

I agree with several of the others: it's probably time to look for a new job.

------
zhte415
I am speaking from my own experience.

My boss left as a result of corporate incompetence (not his, the company). I
will not go into that, but as a very senior and generally well liked person in
a very large company, with the ability to bring a lot of work in (100s of jobs
per year, approaching 1000s), these were big shoes to fill. He was the
greatest manager I'd ever had. He didn't manage, he led.

His role was filled by someone quite new to the organisation. I hated it for
months, but 1.5 years later, I liked him a lot.

He needed to show his boss that he could fill the shoes. That meant exceeding
expectations. New, out-larged goals, visible checklists for what should be
done, regular follow-ups.

But after a few months I realised his vulnerability in still feeling
vulnerable. We didn't chat explicitly, and in retrospect we should have, but
on a particularly difficult challenge that all thought impossible, we were
achieved a big result, and bonded on that.

This was a management role where it easy to hire 'workers' but painfully hard
to find people with requisite domain knowledge and demonstrable management
experience, in a location it was very hard to get people to relocate
(internally) to. If the salary offers you're seeing are higher, it is likely
you are in an equally illiquid market. I also never explicitly asked for a
raise, but after some time and trust had developed he bumped me up quite a
bit.

It may be the case that the new incumbent in the role feels they do not have
control. Let them feel they have control: document your work, stick to
deadlines, and see each other face-to-face to discuss. They could well feel
more vulnerable than you do now, despite a position of authority. Make it a
partnership.

~~~
zhte415
P.S.

No harm in circulating your CV around headhunters to learn your general market
worth.

------
danbmil99
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it seems very likely that you are not
highly appreciated by your new boss. He is probably hoping you quit; he's not
doing anything to encourage you to stay. I doubt he will offer much in the way
of a raise to keep you on.

In a situation like this, the fact that you are infrequently on site has
probably contributed to your ending up on the short side of the stick wrt
office politics. You have likely missed important social cues related to the
new boss' style and expectations. You have not been physically present to make
sure you get credit for your work, and to counteract any negative karma that
might have been thrown your way.

No it's not exactly fair, but employment is generally 'at will', there is no
guarantee of fairness or bulwark against capricious or petty treatment.

------
anupshinde
You have worked there for two years, without a single raise. And you make the
lowest amount for this position.

This is a good thing and a bad thing - Good thing: since it is the lowest
amount for this position, you have an upper hand. Its difficult (and costly)
for them to replace you.

Bad thing - why did you not get a raise and why you are at that lower end -
does it have something to do with your performance, or is it just some crappy
office politics keeping your pay down?

If you performed well you deserve to get a raise - at least to compensate for
the move to office. So definitely ask for it.

Also, do you go to office for 1-2 weeks in a period of about 6 months or so -
It is also important to get a feel of your office environment if you all were
not a completely remote team.

------
prawn
If you can avoid making it an adversarial situation, that may help. Make it
obvious to them that you feel like you're a very valuable employee, that you
are very productive for them and losing three hours/day on a commute is just
wasting either your time or theirs. You'll be most productive when you're
happy, not with the drudgery of an big drive twice a day.

Can they make an exception for your being in the office, or make it a day per
week or something like that? I agree with someone else who said that three
hours/day driving wouldn't be worth whatever they're likely to offer.

------
krapp
You should probably start looking for a new job _now_.

------
JSeymourATL
Before you pitch the new boss with the idea that you deserve more money and
the ability to continue working remote office-- read this book >
[http://pitchanything.com/book/](http://pitchanything.com/book/)

There's an attitude and posturing element to this, you're The Prize. He's
lucky you're on the team. Not arrogant, but self-assured.

------
greenyoda
Maybe it's time to start looking for a new job. Are there opportunities
available closer to your home?

~~~
minusthebrandon
Yes, but many involve a commute nearly as rough as the one I'm facing now. But
I suppose in that situation, I could negotiate a higher salary from the get-
go.

~~~
geerlingguy
If your current employer isn't entertaining the idea of a raise (especially a
substantial raise), you should wonder how much they really value you as an
employee (the answer: probably not too much).

You should always have your eyes open for a better opportunity, especially if
you don't feel all that happy with your current situation (that's one small
luxury we currently have in the software development industry—take advantage
of it!).

On the flip side, if you're satisfied where you are, and you're on a great
team, feel free to stay, but know that any kind of raise would be an uphill
battle.

~~~
minusthebrandon
This is how I'm starting to feel. I love the team. Part of me thinks I'm
blowing this out of proportion and ascribing nefarious motives to the higher-
ups when they don't actually have any... but I also think I'm telling myself
that so I don't have to face reality.

~~~
patio11
There's nothing particularly nefarious to "We have him at $X and have not been
presented with any rational reason to offer $X + $Y." ("I deserve more" is not
a rational reason. "You cannot purchase my services for $X and you want those
services" is a rational reason.)

------
dmourati
"wants everyone in the office more, including me"

Well, one day a year is more than none. You could make the trip once and talk
face to face.

In that meeting, you could reveal what you've learned about your salary
relative to new hires, ask for a raise, and schedule another trip for 6 months
down the line.

------
gnoway
I guess it depends on what kind of company you're working for. I work for an
enterprise software company, and if my situation were like yours, I would be
looking around for either a new job or a house/apartment closer to the office.

------
iampims
I can’t remember where I read it, but “studies“ have shown that to retain the
same level of happiness you need to make $40K more per additional hour of
commute.

Maybe that can be a starting point for negotiating a raise.

------
chadkruse
Using the lens of 'what makes the most sense in the long term', could you
really handle commuting 54 miles? Personally I couldn't handle that commute
for any price.

~~~
minusthebrandon
I tell myself I could, but it's rough. A good 3+ hours in the car every day.

~~~
nikanj
That's two good hobbies and sixpack abs right there, if you spend that time on
self improvement instead of sitting in a car. Commutes over on hour per day
are a huge sacrifice from your most precious resource: unallocated time

~~~
minusthebrandon
Honestly, the mornings and the evenings are the time I get to spend with my
wife and daughter. I value time with them infinitely more than I value
listening to audiobooks/podcasts in rush hour traffic for 15 hours a week.

~~~
praneshp
I think he means what you mean, that you could be doing far better things in
the 3 hours you waste in the car.

~~~
minusthebrandon
Yeah, you're totally right. I completely missed the "instead of sitting in the
car" part. Thanks. Sorry nikanj.

------
Seb86
Talk to a lawyer and get them to talk to your boss about the remote work
situation and the initial contract.

~~~
minusthebrandon
It was just an oral agreement. Nothing on paper.

~~~
krapp
In other words, it was a fiction entertained by two people, one of whom no
longer works there.

~~~
minusthebrandon
He still works there and can probably vouch for the agreement, but he's no
longer my direct supervisor.

~~~
krapp
Oh... my mistake then, sorry.

Still probably not binding though.

