

Bolivian Leader's Plane Rerouted on Snowden Fear - boi_v2
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2013/07/02/world/americas/ap-lt-nsa-surveillance-bolivia.html?hp

======
TillE
Can anyone think of another time this has ever happened? Two countries denying
airspace to an official transport from a third country with no existing war or
conflict involved? Bonus points if the head of state is onboard, but I'll
accept other examples with only lesser officials involved.

It's absolutely shocking.

~~~
mcphilip
Portugal is a mess recently with several cabinet members resigning, including
a key figure overseeing the implementation of terms agreed to in its bailout
by the EU. I can see Portugal being in a particularly compliant mood at the
moment in order to build good will with those that may have to help bail it
out again.

But France? What could possibly be the motive other than bending to pressure
from the US?

~~~
mark_l_watson
The NSA/US government probably has lots of dirt on politicians in these
countries, and are applying it. Democracies are not so much democracies when
the NSA can blackmail local politicians. I personally believe that this is the
whole point of our large scale sweep of "everyone" surveillance, no matter how
innocent they are.

~~~
ims
That could be it. _Or_ the United States could be applying the typical
measures of pressure in the diplomatic toolbox, consisting largely of economic
incentives, concessions that meet other countries' policy goals, and appeals
to mutual interest. You know, the standard tools of statecraft that have
barely changed since the Congress of Vienna.

You decide which seems more plausible.

~~~
mark_l_watson
Well my friend, I suggest we wait a year or two, and it might be clear which
of us is right.

I am old enough to have lived through the Pentagon Papers disclosures, when a
lot of people were calling for the execution of Daniel Ellesberg. Now, only
right wing whackos don't acknowledge that Ellesberg served interests of US
citizens.

EDIT: I am not being critical of you. I appreciate your comment, thanks.

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airesQ
The Portuguese authorities allowed ~150 CIA flights carrying "al-quaeda
sympathizers" to Guantanamo (and other places) [1].

Now they deny right-of-passage to a flight carrying the president of Bolivia.
Because? Well, you know, doing otherwise would upset the American authorities.
It's realpolitik.

[1] -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition#Portug...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition#Portugal)

------
dil8
I am really surprised at how great the gap has become between the US
Government's rhetoric and actual policy on human rights, foreign policy and
government transparency.

I just hope that Americans realise this and demand change sooner than later.

~~~
chao-
I completely agree, so please take this as an explanation and elucidation
rather than a criticism: The concept of merely "demanding change" is unlikely
to result in change, unless the term "demanding" includes actions that would
result in significant disruption of economics and daily life (in which case
that is an entirely different discussion).

The core piece in dampening a desire for change, in my thinking anyway, is the
two-party system. Both parties are complicit and supportive of all this
nonsense by an overwhelming internal majority. Outliers who join third parties
are historically unsuccessful and outliers as candidates within the Democratic
and Republican parties are rare. Even if you are lucky enough to have the
chance to vote for someone radically pro-transparency or pro-privacy in
federal election, the following still apply:

1\. They are likely new, and _years_ away from being in a leadership position
of an important committee (where real accountability and change might begin).

2\. They often fall into line over time. If they buck the party too often, too
publicly and on too central of an issue, it is possible that the party will
support them less in future national elections.

3\. Any legislation they introduce, if acceptable at all, might well be
diluted by amendments and through the committee process. Our congress appears
slow and deadlocked because, it is in some ways designed to be. That is not me
saying I agree with that design decision, but again just shining a light on
the point.

The two-party system is a barrier to expressing (electorally) desire for
change beyond a certain delta from the status quo. A multi-party system,
though it might be fraught with other issues, would go some distance toward
representing more varied sets of concerns.

~~~
dil8
I completely agree... It has almost become impossible to 'demand change' from
within the system, unless off course the change is within the acceptable
norms.

~~~
alexqgb
Indeed. That's exactly why the system has gotten so far out of kilter. Muting
or disabling the normal feedback loops has set the stage for the escalation of
abuse that we've been witnessing ever since the banksters that cratered the
economy got bonuses in place of prison terms.

The economy and state security are both suffering from a hugely captured
Congress. The flip side is that regaining control of our legislators would
mean solving myriad problems at once. Or at least, starting to address them in
ways that make sense to and for the people.

Breaking this hold isn't a one shot deal. Rather, it requires dismantling four
interlocking institutions which have, in combination, the toxic effect we're
becoming acutely aware of.

Specifically, we need to open closed primaries, end partisan redistricting,
switch from private campaign finance to public, and brick up the revolving
door between the public and private sectors by placing a lifetime hellban on
future employment of public officials by any private interest they've
overseen.

Obviously, these reforms will make a stint in public office far less lucrative
than it is right now, so there is a zero percent chance that Congress will
initiate them freely. That means support for these reforms must become the
primary condition for winning elected office in the first place.

I have no idea how to get a critical mass of Americans to single-mindedly
enforce this condition. But I can't think of any other way for them to recover
an essential measure of control over Congress. So that's the problem in a
nutshell.

------
qwertzlcoatl
The ability of the US government to bend other governments in a certain
direction, is like a leak in and of itself, as I surely did not expect so many
governments, including mine in germany, to be this intimidated by the US
powerhouse.

~~~
barry-cotter
I read a Crooked Timber thread recently comparing the US's treatment of Latin
America to the Soviet Union's treatment of the Warsaw Pact. The world made
slightly more sense after that.

The US is intimidating. It has made all non-democratic forms of government
illegitimate by waging wars of extermination against them, it is a quarter of
the world economy by itself, its military black budget is almost certainly
larger than anyone else's open budget and its open budget is greater than the
rest of the world's military budget summed.

The US is the global hegemon. Russia, China and maybe Iran are independent of
it. The US does not truly view the rest of the world as sovereigns but as
subjects.

~~~
WildUtah
_It has made all non-democratic forms of government illegitimate by waging
wars of extermination against them_

I agree with a lot of your post, but it wasn't anything the US government did
that made all non-democratic forms of government illegitimate. They have all
been illegitimate since the very first time a gang of stronger men beat and
killed a weaker one just because they could.

~~~
jemfinch
Except that democracy itself consists of a gang of _more_ people beating up
gangs of _fewer_ people just because they can. It merely substitutes numbers
for strength.

Neither might nor popularity makes right.

------
koops
Apparently the US government is trying to see just how craven and vindictive
it can be.

As Snowden says, they want to intimidate the next leaker.

------
mark_l_watson
I love my country (USA) but I feel like like we are on such a stupid path. I
get the "make the rich people a lot richer" thing, but we need to get our act
together and do it quickly. I think that Snowden is screwed, but he has given
us a chance, very small chance, to get our act together and bow out of this
Empire thing.

~~~
embolism
A good idea. It's time for someone else to have a turn. How about Putin? He
has 10 years left in his term and knows a thing or two about espionage. Maybe
the communist party of China - perhaps they could persuade us to adopt tougher
internal policing.

------
mpyne
Possibly was an actual plane malfunction according to another comment on HN
([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5981267](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5981267))

Radio exchange at [http://audioboo.fm/boos/1482009-bolivia-air-force-fuerza-
aer...](http://audioboo.fm/boos/1482009-bolivia-air-force-fuerza-aerea-
boliviana-fab001-flight-precaution-landing-vienna-austria)

~~~
vrepsys
According to The Guardian
([http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-
snowden-a...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-
asylum-live#block-51d36aace4b0300b24e64d7f)): 1.05am BST Associated Press has
published extracts from a statement issued by the Bolivian defence minister,
Ruben Saavedra, who was also on the redirected plane.

It says the plane was allowed to land in Spain for refueling before flying on
to Austria.

It describes the rerouting as a "hostile act" by the US goverment: This is a
hostile act by the United States State Department which has used various
European governments"

~~~
WildUtah
1\. Austria is not on the way from Spain to Bolivia by any plausible charter
routing.

2\. Portugal and France don't control airspace needed to fly from Spain to
Bolivia. Neither do they control airspace needed or very desirable to fly
between Austria and Bolivia.

3\. Therefore what we are hearing now is not likely to be the real story.

~~~
gaadd33
For a flight from Moscow to Bolivia with a refueling stop in Lisbon, it
appears that the great circle route takes you through Spain and France. From
Austria it appears as if traversing France is the best route too.

Are there strong jet streams or something which would cause it to choose a
different route?

------
tszyn
It's terrifying how far European "leaders" are willing to go to suck up to the
US Government.

~~~
icebraining
Oh, our governments here in Portugal never needed much to suck up to everyone
else. The US, Britain, Germany, Angola, Gaddafi's Libya, you name it - they
say jump, we ask "how high?"

During the Azores summit, while Bush, Blair and Aznar discussed the Iraq
invasion, our PM (Barroso - yeah, the guy from the EU) was more than happy to
be their busboy and serve drinks while the Great Leaders talked.

~~~
cpursley
Remind me of some classic RATM Bullet In The Head lyrics:

Just victims of the in-house drive-by They say jump, you say how high Just
victims of the in-house drive-by They say jump, you say how high...

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkIXPSWjmsk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkIXPSWjmsk)

------
rumbler
That's certainly a good way for Snowden to see where his friends and his
enemies are, and at the same time expose to the world how much leverage the US
has with many countries.

