
Microsoft is now a braver, more innovative company than Apple - ssuda
http://mashable.com/2016/10/27/microsoft-better-apple/#gGEqKo9ceqqw
======
whytaka
Microsoft is innovative because you can now purchase a dedicated hardware
peripheral for some software feature the touchscreen was designed to replace.

Let's completely forget that Microsoft 'upgrades' your OS without your
permission, spies on you, embeds ads into the Start Menu, and their OEMs like
Lenovo will listen in on everything you do at the hardware level. In my
opinion, these are actual reasons a company should completely fail and
dissolve.

I'll stick with Apple who, though not without faults, works hard to:

\- build quality machines that seemingly never wanes in performance while
provide enduring support that make them last so much longer than their
competitors that it shifts the arithmetic when comparing the YoY cost of their
wares to their competition

\- secure the integrity of my machine and my privacy

\- deliver industry-leading user experience

Apple isn't perfect. The 1st-gen Magic Mouse (I haven't tried the 2nd gen) is
utter garbage. Some iOS 10 UX are inconsistent and flawed. They probably
should have included a USB-C - Lightning cable in with their new iPhones.

But let's all calm down. Apple is still a cut above. USB-C connected
peripherals will likely storm into the marketplace. You'll probably get the
new MBP. If you really can't handle the dongles, get the 2nd to latest
version. It'll last you more than 4 years easily. If you're the type to get a
new model every year: either you work very closely with the MBP hardware
itself or you need to re-examine your life.

~~~
systemtest
I bought the first 13" Macbook Pro with the Thunderbolt port, expecting the
whole world to switch to Thunderbolt in a couple of years. It was predicted
that there would be Macbooks in the future with only Thunderbolt ports, as it
could connect to everything.

Guess what, that didn't happen. It became a high-end niche market. Not saying
that that's where USB-C will be going but I have a bad feeling about this.

~~~
croon
No, USB-C will be standard. What happened to Thunderbolt is what will happen
to Lightning. USB-C is here to stay, and they should've put it in iPhone 7 as
well.

~~~
eridius
Why should they have put it on the iPhone? People keep saying that, but
nobody's actually given a good reason. It's not like you're going to be
plugging any of your Mac peripherals into your iPhone. The only actual reason
anyone seems to have is "so you can plug your iPhone into an Android charger",
but that doesn't seem very compelling to me (do I even want to trust an
Android charger?).

~~~
taurath
USB-C is supplanting microUSB ports just about everywhere, just like microUSB
supplanted miniUSB. I don't understand why the iPhone isn't using it other
than to allow people to use their iPhone 6 peripherals.

~~~
eridius
Lightning was first, there is a vibrant ecosystem in place around Made For
iPhone accessories that use Lightning that a lot of existing iPhone users
already own, the Lightning port and connector are smaller than USB-C which is
probably useful in a few places (I saw someone suggest somewhere that the
Apple Pencil wouldn't even be able to fit a USB-C connector), someone else
also said that Lightning was designed to support the weight of the iPhone in a
dock configuration but USB-C probably wasn't, etc. And there's not really any
benefit to switching to USB-C besides being able to re-use Android chargers,
which isn't something that Apple or most of their customers particularly cares
about.

------
jfoutz
There's no real underdog now. Microsoft has a pretty consistent track record
of looking at other companies making money, and making a microsoft version of
that. Bing, xbox, azure, and zune are pretty obvious examples. Surface doesn't
seem to fit that mold at all. They're giving every indication of doing
something new.

I can't think of a real underdog right now. Apple had this sort of desperation
to do something good, right now, or die. Microsoft can throw a lot of money at
something and still be ok. The surface looks very good, and it's a unique
vision.

I wish someone would found the equivalent of BeOS, and sell BeBoxes for it. A
linux laptop with flawless hardware support. A slot for a stepper driver card
would be pretty cool. Maybe a geek port, or maybe a clever way to integrate a
breadboard or FPGA, or both.

Things feel really stable right now. Google will keep selling ads, Apple will
keep cranking out consumer electronics, Microsoft will keep selling its
windows/office pair to the universe, Amazon will keep getting better at
logistics, and Facebook will keep growing the social graph. None of them are
going to bet the farm on anything. And, really, they're all big clunky slow
organizations they rebelled against.

I hope there will be a big wave of innovation, I don't think it's going to
come from the big 5. But i'd agree, yes microsoft is some percentage more
innovative than apple. Big, radical, disruptive, change the world ideas? No,
none of the big 5 are capable anymore.

~~~
notalaser
I've been reading all these Mac-related posts lately because I'm very
seriously considering getting one. Why, you ask? Precisely because this:

> A linux laptop with flawless hardware support.

is hardly cutting it for me anymore, and I've used Linux for a very long time
(basically, since Be Inc. was still around and BeOS was still being sold,
since we're dabbling in nostalgia).

You can get a Linux laptop with flawless hardware support right now, really.
In fact, I haven't looked over HCLs when buying a Linux laptop for more than
five years now. Hardware support is realistically not a problem with Linux
anymore.

What _is_ a problem is the fact that, once again, we're going through one of
those Let's Rewrite Everything phases and nothing works, for any serious,
productive, professional definition of "works", not in Gnome land, not in KDE
land, and thanks to the ever-encroaching XDG & friends land, not in fuck-
it-i've-done-this-throughout-my-teenage-years-so-blackbox-and-a-bunch-of-
xterms-it-is land.

It's great, it's the system that gives you the most control over your system,
it's the one that doesn't spy on you and doesn't force you to buy overpriced
hardware (look, I'm all for good design and thinness and whatnot but Powerbook
G4s were a good bang for the buck, despite the funky hinges, not today's
MacBook Pros), and I've grown so accustomed to it and so fond of it on a
personal level that the thought of leaving it behind is unpleasant, and
compensated only by the fact that I'll still be using it at work.

But I'm sick of nursing my system back to health after every other dnf update.
Gnome 3 looks good and it's great to use, but it's a maintenance nightmare,
since virtually everything breaks from one _minor_ version to another. Plasma
5 is a step forward from KDE 4 but it still crashes and Kmail2 is still a
nightmare. Mind-boggling bugs pop into existence with each new release.

Whenever I show the latest and greatest to someone (this week it was my screen
going blank when switching virtual consoles, and if your next question is "why
would you switch virtual consoles in 2016", the reason is that gdm was
freezing and I wanted to restart it), they shrug and swear they've never seen
it before on _their_ system. Unfortunately, this type of thinking is so
ingrained in our community (by "our community" I mean "Linux programmers")
that I doubt we'll ever devise anything that will stay usable for more than
six months.

This was all very fun many, many years ago, when I was in high school and I
had a lot of free evenings and when, if something suddenly stopped working
after an update or crashed or whatnot, my reaction was "whoa, cool, what's
causing this" rather than "well, I'll think about how to fix this while I'm
making dinner so that I can still have an hour of two to hack on something".
This is not only no longer fun, it's not _understandable_. Fifteen years is a
long time.

I've been messing around with Windows on an old laptop I have around. Windows
10 is pretty slick (maybe it doesn't seem so impressive to you, but please
realize that the last time I used Windows routinely, it was Windows 2000) but
the *nix-style usage is too ingrained in my brain by now. However, I'm not
really looking forward to having to wrestle with my OS for privacy, nor do I
trust Microsoft with my computer-related well-being on a ten-year period --
and, being a programmer, I guess it's understandable that "computer-related
well-being" is a pretty big deal to me.

~~~
jfoutz
So, if you're willing to drop 2k on an experiment, i'd say go for it. I'm
leery of the new models because i use vim, and my fingers get cold and sweaty.
Touch devices don't respond perfectly and i have fear about `esc` working
reliably.

I've gone through my own versions of your frustrations, but i'll spare you the
war stories.

my 2 cents. macos is bsd, hacked up in odd ways. if you want to edit something
in /etc, you're doing something wrong. It's a little off putting figuring out
where stuff is. /Library/Frameworks is common. There's no C compiler, without
installing (part of) xcode.

You've got 2 choices for package management. macports is a shared nothing
approach, everything is compiled against libraries compiled to /opt/local/. Or
homebrew. brew tries to share everything with the built in libraries. Just be
consistent, i lost some time to libiconv, postgress and haskell the other day.
If i'd been consistent i'd have avoided the problem entirely. I've never used
brew seriously, but lots of people like it. I swear fealty to macports.

The biggest loss for me was no tiling window manager (although i think some
hacks exist to get the same effect).

osx is different. it will trip you up from time to time. a whole bunch of
stuff is reliable in ways that were not reliable for me in linux. (take that
with some salt, i haven't used linux as my desktop in quite a few years, and i
think things have come a long, long way).

If it sucks, you can always go back to linux. That touchbar support might take
a while to work right though, and no esc key till it does. ctrl-] will
probably be your friend.

You're looking at a different set of tradeoffs. you're a programmer, odds are
very good everything you want is there. You can always run a VM if you get
stuck. But it's not all sunshine and rainbows. I do think rainbow free days
are a little less frequent than either windows or linux, so it has generally
been a win for me.

~~~
notalaser
I had (well, I still have it) a Mac Mini and used it between 2007 and 2009. I
was pretty dissatisfied with its performance (then again, that was around the
time when Tiger got obsolete and the Leopard moved in, and the Mini was
already slow and old by that time) but, overall, I think it's the most
productive platform I used, short of my old WindowMaker setup which has aged
too much to be useful by now.

So I know what to expect _right now_. Frankly, what I'm afraid of is that I
don't know what to expect _next year_. 2K for an experiment is ok if I could
run it for three or four years. Right now, it looks like _if_ Apple has a
document called "Roadmap for Mac Computers, 2016-2020", there's a good chance
that it's a four-page summary of another document called "How to convince all
our customers to just get an iPad already for fun and profit".

~~~
jfoutz
The hardware is solid. I have zero complaints about build quality. You are not
obligated to upgrade to the latest OS (but you probably should...). I feel
really comfortable saying you can get 4 years out of a mbp. If you really need
the out, just in case you need to install windows or linux, wait 2-3 months,
just to make sure other people have done it reliably.

There is always risk it's not the "optimal" choice, but it's certainly not the
"wrong" choice. MacOS is fine. If you hate it just install something else.
(but the brand new stuff might be flakey under windows/linux for a while)

~~~
notalaser
Thanks! It's reassuring to hear this sort of things in the middle of the
current zomg MPB bad rage.

~~~
ixtli
Just read this thread and I'm also comfortable recommending the hardware for
three or four years easily. Also, the top level comment describes a small
amount of what I went through about 10 years ago that made me switch back to
Apple, though I built a hackintosh instead of a laptop.

------
wmccullough
Lot of people in this thread crapping on Microsoft. I don't know that
Microsoft is more brave or more innovative than Apple yet, but I know one
thing, they are more brave and innovative than Microsoft five years ago.
That's all that matters.

While I'm sure the grand plan is to eat Apple's lunch, they seem more focused
on being better than themselves. I think they are onto something with the
Surface line, they just need to keep iterating it. They also need to introduce
a Surface product that the average consumer can afford--even Apple has done
this with the Air line and the non-Pro line.

I have a MacBook now, but I'd love to go to a Surface Studio. If they can work
to get up-to-date hardware in all of their offerings, and provide a $1k
Macbook Air equivalent, along with a sub $2k iMac equivalent, they'll win.

Microsoft also has one other major hurdle. They lost a ton of ground they were
gaining because they chose to force upgrades to Windows 10. I can actually get
why they did this from a corporate perspective (Less OSes to support,
therefore more money freed up to do other things), but as a user it sucks.
They have to build an update to 10 that wins over the people they lost. They
have to come out and say "Yes, we want your telemetry data, but we aren't
going to force you to give it to us, so from now on, it's opt-in".

As far as Apple goes, I think they know they aren't innovating at the same
pace. I think the headphone jack, the escape key, and touch bar are them
trying to figure out how to innovate without Steve Jobs. I think Jony Ive is
capable, but he needs room to fail to learn. Steve Jobs talked a lot about how
as a company, you produce a lot of failures for each success. Steve Jobs was
just much better at having many of those failures never see the light of day.

Either way, I don't care who the most innovate company is. I'd rather see them
all trying to innovate, because the good stuff they come up with can only
benefit the consumer.

~~~
yodsanklai
> I have a MacBook now, but I'd love to go to a Surface Studio. If they can
> work to get up-to-date hardware in all of their offerings ...

The problem isn't so much the hardware but the OS. I have awful memories of
Windows. I suppose it has gotten better, but I wonder if it's a realistic
replacement to Mac OS X? Essentially, I want something that just works and
where I can use common unix tools. Maybe the new Unix subsystem + an X server
will do it.

Concerning the new MBP, I don't mind the touch bar or the specs but they are
really expensive (esp. in Europe). If they don't get cheaper, I may try a
windows machine.

~~~
cma
One big issue is still the 260-character path-name limitation. Deep source
directories choke on that, especially if you copy them around for backup, etc.

You end up abbreviating class names in the file names and mess up
searchability.

You end up using single letter directories like 'C:\b\' instead of
'C:\backup\', etc. as workarounds. It all feels very MS DOS.

~~~
pjc50
It looks like that's one of the things that they've finally, finally fixed
(but only if you turn it on): [https://mspoweruser.com/ntfs-260-character-
windows-10/](https://mspoweruser.com/ntfs-260-character-windows-10/)

~~~
novaleaf
yeah, and break all apps that use the old 255 char win32 api's.

another thing to note is that it requires the windows insider preview, which
in my experience required auto reboots every few days. very frustrating so I
had to revert....

Switching off of Insider Preview is a TERRIBLE experience of it's own: You
can't actually revert back. you either have to restore from backup (which
isn't mentioned when you switch to insider preview mode) or wait for the next
mainline release, which may be 6+ months away, and you have to MANUALLY TRACK
when insider syncs with main and then switch to main during the window in
which they are matched.

------
jpgvm
Microsoft has almost always been a more innovative company.

Microsoft Research alone is enough for this to be true.

Surface is a very very very old brand/moniker that goes back almost a decade
at this point - originally a tech demo of a table that you could interact with
in various ways. They explored touch, VR and all sorts of alternative
interfaces before anyone else. They took a stab at PDAs around the same time
as Palm (which was also an insanely innovative company). Their developer
tooling is really innovative, the CLR itself, their IDE integration.

Hell the NT kernel was/is a really innovative piece of technology - it's
driver model still completely stomps what is available in Linux/Mach.

Apple was never more innovative than Microsoft, they just executed way better.
Jobs might not have been a technical or even design genius (though plenty of
both worked for him), but he definitely was a business genius that really
understood the value of crisp execution and marketing.

I say all of this as an Apple user, that also happens to be a fan of the
technical and innovative achievements of Microsoft and as someone that
contributes to and relies on the OSS/Linux/GNU stack. I have a horse in every
race but at the end of the day you can't dispute that Microsoft is the clear
innovation powerhouse remaining with IBM/HP/Bell Labs mostly winding down in
comparison.

~~~
culturestate
Is Microsoft more innovative, or is Microsoft simply more _publicly_
innovative? Apple (and tons of other companies, for that matter) simply don't
make hay out of their R&D efforts until they have something sellable to
announce.

~~~
jpgvm
I don't think so.

If one is to assume R&D spending it roughly equatable with "non-public"
innovation than historically Microsoft is more innovative than even Google,
let alone Apple. This assumption may be weak but I think it would at least be
somewhat correlated.

------
simonh
The central premise is that Apple isn't innovative anymore. Let's look at the
technologies Apple has materially advanced over the last few years.

* Custom screen technology leap-frogging 4K displays directly to 5K, at a full-system price below that of a 4K screen alone from competitors at the time.

* wide colour gamut screen tech putting them several years ahead of the competition.

* Brand new screen digitiser technology in the iPad Pros that also puts them several years ahead of any of their competitors.

* 3D Touch technology nobody else even appears to have a path to implementing because it requires such close design integration with the hardware and software.

* mobile processor designs putting them years ahead of any of their competitors in yet another technology category.

* A new variant of iOS (Watch OS) that's now powering two completely different product categories.

I venture to suggest that the death of innovation at Apple is being declared
somewhat prematurely.

~~~
jhasse
> Brand new screen digitiser technology in the iPad Pros that also puts them
> several years ahead of any of their competitors.

What technology are you talking about?

> mobile processor designs putting them years ahead of any of their
> competitors in yet another technology category.

Are you talking about the A10 Fusion? It's the fastest single-core processor,
but according to [https://www.pcper.com/reviews/Mobile/Apple-
iPhone-7-and-7-Pl...](https://www.pcper.com/reviews/Mobile/Apple-
iPhone-7-and-7-Plus-Review/A10-Fusion-SoC) the Snapdragon 820 has a faster GPU
and the Kirin 950 a better mutli-core score in Geekbench. So I wouldn't say
that their mobile processor design is years ahead (it's more that iOS doesn't
need more than two cores and therefore they can really optimize single-core
performance).

> A new variant of iOS (Watch OS) that's now powering two completely different
> product categories.

How is this any different than Android Wear?

~~~
simonh
>What technology are you talking about?

The way the pen and screen work together, and the screen sandwich layering
that significantly reduces parallax between the pencil tip and image.

Regarding processor tech I was mainly thinking of the move to 64bit and secure
enclave which completely out-manoeuvred the competition.

I'm not saying Apple is the only company innovating, Android Wear is a
credible and innovative alternative that's holding its own in the market.

~~~
jhasse
> Regarding processor tech I was mainly thinking of the move to 64bit and
> secure enclave which completely out-manoeuvred the competition.

Why is the move to 64 bit so important, but the move to 4 cores isn't? I don't
really see why 64 bit makes sense for < 4 GB RAM devices and I also bet that
no one can really tell the difference performance wise.

This is also the first time I hear about Secure Enclave. TouchID isn't that
secure anyway ([https://www.ccc.de/en/updates/2013/ccc-breaks-apple-
touchid](https://www.ccc.de/en/updates/2013/ccc-breaks-apple-touchid)), so I
really don't care how the fingerprint is stored.

~~~
simonh
Pass codes aren't perfectly secure either. Someone can see you type it in, or
infer it from finger smudges. If your criterion for accepting a technology is
perfection in all circumstances you're not going to find many technologies
that satisfy it.

------
giancarlostoro
They're working themselves there, it still feels like parts of Microsoft
haven't caught up. Windows 10 comes to mind, and other areas that still seem
painfully behind the times. It would be nice if Microsoft made some Windows
Components that are open sourced out of the box, like full disk encryption
software. I've personally moved to Linux for over a year now because it meets
all my needs without getting in my way. Linux has come a long way, but Windows
10 feels like it's pushing me away. There should be a minimalist / developer
centric version of Windows that has no ridiculous services on or even
installed on the OS, has sane update installation (once a month or so is fine,
unless critical). Maybe even turn the old dated Windows Update into the same
style as a Linux package manager if that's possible enough for Windows.
There's also two different Windows Update screens and they each fight each
other.

~~~
teh_klev
I'm curious, what leads you to believe there's two different Windows Update
screens?

~~~
taspeotis
In Windows 8 at least, you had a "desktop" Windows Update accessible from the
control panel and a "modern" Windows Update accessible from the Start Screen.

From memory they beefed up the "modern" one then ditched the "desktop" one in
Windows 10 sometime around the Anniversary Update.

~~~
teh_klev
I've used Windows 10 since just after RTM and it's only ever had one Windows
Update tool. Could well be it was present in the beta releases?

------
delegate
I wonder how much propaganda do we read every day ? Tip: A lot.

I think that almost every piece of information which is not pure art or
mathematical formulas - is some sort of propaganda..

Meaning someone somewhere is pushing his own agenda, directly or indirectly.

It is strategically wise for Apple competitors to put out all kinds of
negative articles right now.

Apple does something unpopular - use that as a lever to swing the opinion -
that's when some customers fall into your own nets.

After all, competition is not messiah - they desperately want to push their
own products and inflict as much damage as possible to the top dog, which
happens to be Apple right now..

I don't know about this particular article, but I'm just saying - I've seen so
much negativity and wining about the MacBook Pros - that the "pro" people are
left behind, there's no ESC key and so on - I'm really curious to actually try
it for myself..

What if I like it ? Is that a strategy too ?

I find it harder and harder to believe anything on the Internet now, because
it's all twisted and bended and distorted.. It's a war out there and the
battlefield is our minds.

~~~
dstryr
I agree with you that we are constantly bombarded with propaganda, but a lot
of the backlash is coming from long-time Apple users such as myself, who feel
that Apple is no longer making computers for us. And you know what? That's
perfectly fine, they're a business and are catering to the high end where the
margins are best.

The proof is littered all over HN and Reddit where blog posts all begin with
the same defense, "I"ve been using Macs since... and have bought Apple since
this, this and this."

Personally, I wish there were a company selling a generic looking, uni-body
notebook, similar in aesthetic and price to the new Xiaomi laptop. If some
company could optimize hardware like that specifically for Linux, from the
ground up, then maybe I could ditch this aging mid-2011 Macbook Air running
Linux.

~~~
GVIrish
> ...but a lot of the backlash is coming from long-time Apple users such as
> myself, who feel that Apple is no longer making computers for us. And you
> know what? That's perfectly fine, they're a business and are catering to the
> high end where the margins are best.

I don't even think Apple is catering to the high end here. If they were, the
new MBP would be shipping with a lot more horsepower. It seems like they are
catering to the casual user who is happy to pay a premium to have a slick-
looking Apple product but doesn't actually have demanding computing needs.
Many college students would fall in this category.

The high-end buyers that would pay a premium to have a powerful Macbook to do
serious development or multimedia computing have been left out in the cold.

Maybe there are enough of the casual buyers that Apple thought it made more
sense to cater to them than the professionals. But Apple easily could've made
a machine that catered to both markets if they had better vision.

~~~
dstryr
I should have probably clarified that 'high end' was referencing the luxury
goods crowd, not high end professionals.

------
ingenieros
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBma82g3Uag](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBma82g3Uag)
Young Steve warned us about the risk of having "toner heads" running tech
monopolies. So weird that it was Jobs himself who picked this guy to be his
successor just as they were becoming the biggest corporation in the world.

~~~
hanief
IMHO, Apple removing headphone jack and legacy ports is exactly the kind of
things that opposite of having "toner heads" running the company. If "toner
heads" are really running Apple they will be scared taking the risk and moving
forward because they know it will hurt sales. If "toner heads" are really
running Apple they will not take the risks of creating a new interaction model
with unproven reception among customers.

I love Apple for this and I am buying the new Macbook Pro tomorrow. :)

~~~
rorykoehler
The headphone jack is not a legacy port. It is the single most impressive
industrial design for a port in history. That's the reason it lasted so long
and also the reason it will outlive any wireless nonsense apple brings out to
increase their landfill impact.

~~~
jamesrcole
Speaking for myself, I hate headphone cables. They always get knotted up when
stored away, and they're always getting caught on things while I'm wearing the
headphones.

I'm looking forwards to when wireless headphones are more ubiquitous and
cheaper.

~~~
croon
Sure, headphone cables are a mess. So use wireless ones instead. For me; not
having to ever charge my headphones far outweigh that hassle. As well as any
issues with pairing and sound quality.

> I'm looking forwards to when wireless headphones are more ubiquitous and
> cheaper.

So wait for that before you remove the port. Otherwise we're just trading
3.5mm cable hassles for Lightning adapter/cable hassles.

~~~
jamesrcole
>>> I'm looking forwards to when wireless headphones are more ubiquitous and
cheaper.

> So wait for that before you remove the port.

Err, I was stating my personal opinion on wireless headphones. I'm not Apple.

Obviously people have different preferences on removing the port. I'm glad
that it will help push the availability of wireless headphones, and speed up
their marketplace penetration.

> Otherwise we're just trading 3.5mm cable hassles for Lightning adapter/cable
> hassles.

Again, for my own situation, I wouldn't have any Lightning adapter/cable
hassles.

------
Waterluvian
The word "brave" still feels laughable in the corporate context. At most, a
company has calculated it wants to take a larger risk.

"Brave" probably makes sense in the context where a company is ready to
literally bet it all on something they believe in when they're in a
sustainable position.

------
sidlls
Apple has for a very long time been a marketing and branding innovator. Jobs
recognized something important: branding and marketing matters more than
technology, but the technology has to be good enough to support the branding
and marketing efforts. So he took the company in a direction that was quite
clever: wait until the tech was good enough to wrap in a marketable package,
then blitz the market with it suggesting they'd been the technology driver the
entire time.

It has worked fabulously. Just look at the number of people who think Apple
innovated computing at any level: from portable music to smart phones to
displays and on and on. These days you're a "tech geek" if you have a couple
of Apple devices in your kit. This phenomenon has almost nothing to do with
innovation in technology but quite a lot with their marketing efforts to
present themselves as fashionable technology innovators.

In the last 20 years or so there aren't very many technologies Apple has
actually innovated on that didn't already exist in some form or another, just
without the Apple Marketing Magic behind it.

------
therein
No doubt really. I would have left my MBP and bought a Surface Book 2 had
their OS not spied on me or the hardware had perfect Linux support.

~~~
wbillingsley
Curiously, one of the things I'm rather liking about Windows 10 is that it now
has an Ubuntu module in it... Back at the end of my PhD I switched from a
combination of Windows and a Linux server, to a Mac, largely because of bash
on Mac. It sort of feels like Windows has started to one-up them there too.
(Though it's still prettier on a Mac)

Some of the cool stuff from HCI labs in the early 2000s seems to be arriving
in products on Windows faster than on Macs too (tangibles, large touch
displays, etc).

It seems to me that Apple is somehow now missing the "obvious plays". They put
a bunch of effort into Siri, but were late putting it on the Mac. They put a
bunch of effort into multi-touch; but Macs are now just about the only
notebooks without a multi-touch screen. They put a bunch of effort into the
Pencil to make it low-latency for artists; but you can't use it on a Mac.
Another obvious play was to make it so you can plug in the ipad and use it as
a secondary display with pencil support, but it took Duet Display to do that
for them so they've never been able to promote that you can do that.

Perhaps they bet single-mindedly on the tablet replacing the computer, and
were caught out when the tablet market saturated and started getting eaten by
phablets? Either way, it seems to me they've found themselves left with an
anaemic laptop product pipeline.

------
sidcool
Not so fast. Let the respective products come to market. Armchair visionary
technologists have already spelled death of Apple and Resurrection of
Microsoft. Not so fast.

~~~
SamUK96
To be fair, Apple's last 3-4 Quarters have been huge consecutive
disappointments, and this line up was their last chance to turn that around I
believe. And they've clearly failed. Who will pay $1,500 on a laptop that has
second-grade components, a rather standard keyboard, etc. etc.

Heck, Asus' Zenbook 3 line costs around $1500 and it has the best possible
components, better screen, better keyboard, better everything.

~~~
cygned
I have spent twice the money you stated for a new MacBook Pro 13". I'd say,
the primary point is "it just works". I know, once it's been delivered, I'll
install a couple of tools, transfer some files and it will work. It won't get
slower, it won't crash, the hardware won't break. And I don't have to waste
time keeping that thing alive.

Maybe I was just lucky with my previous Macs but that's the experience I've
had in the last years.

~~~
UnoriginalGuy
The latest iPhone literally cannot plug into the latest MBPs. The MBP also
lacks the chip the AirPods need to work smoothly. I think it is safe to say
"just works" is officially dead at Apple.

~~~
huxley
You can retire the AirPods argument.

The W1 chip is in the AirPods, the device that it connects to doesn't need to
have a W1, the only requirement is OS support, that includes Macs running
Sierra.

Under system requirements: "Mac models with macOS Sierra or later"

------
mhomde
Yeah I don't know. I mean it's great that Microsoft is starting to actually
being able to bring innovative products to market rather than staying at the
concept stage. Panos seems to infuse that part of Microsoft with some great
leadership and design ethos. They are are on an upwards trajectory while Apple
can be seen as being on the down slope.

But Apple has and still is doing some great things when it comes to
innovation. The taptic engine is a great addition, so was touch 3D, Touch ID,
and a few of the other things they've introduced. The problem with Apple is
more that they now seem to lack some judgement and vision together with a
putting the bottom line before everything else.

That could be perceived as "braver" than Microsoft if it weren't for the fact
that Microsoft isn't exactly throwing money at problems either any more, but
seems to keeps things more focused and picking its battles. Overall though the
competition is great and will lead to better products.

------
exabrial
"Apple used to be focused on making their devices better, now they're just
focused on making them even thinner" \- Some guy on Reddit

I don't claim to know a whole lot about the design of Windows, but what would
be the possibility of seeing them become POSIX compatible at some point?

~~~
benaadams
You can even pipe between Windows and Unix commands on Windows these days
[https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/wsl/2016/10/19/windows-
and-...](https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/wsl/2016/10/19/windows-and-ubuntu-
interoperability/)

------
ungzd
I'm sceptical about Microsoft innovations, especially adding touch screen to
laptops and AI/VR, but at least they're still interested in desktops, unlike
Apple and Google that are thinking that everyone need only Instagram and Clash
of kings.

------
caseymarquis
I thought this was going to be about OSS, Linux on Windows, S2016 docker
containers, etc. That's where MS has been moving in an innovative direction.
Instead it's making gross over-predictions based on the release of a very
large tablet.

------
themihai
I think it would be fair to say that Apple is not that great anymore and
Microsoft sucks less. However Apple is still a better choice for many pro
consumers. For example Microsoft/Windows doesn't have avb support.

------
usrusr
Is it bravery when you have no other choice? Microsoft is trying to "make the
PC great again" because everything else they tried has failed. If the "Windows
workstation" (oxymoron alert, I know, but it is the best way to think about PC
vs smart devices) goes down, Microsoft goes down.

Compared to this amount of existential dependency, Apple continuing the Mac
line is more like when Microsoft was still continuing their Flight Simulator
despite already chasing much bigger prey in computer entertainment with the
Xbox division.

~~~
adventured
> Is it bravery when you have no other choice?

If you're a student of - particularly - the last 50 years of tech industry
history, then you understand there is always another choice: established tech
companies have frequently chosen to stubbornly die off tightly clinging to
their own past, rather than attempt something else. Microsoft was previously
well on its way to that land of eroded or dead tech giants.

------
pessimizer
This Microsoft media push is becoming tiring. Surface Studio is an expensive
touchscreen on a stand and for some reason it seems to be worthy of 20
articles a day, and dozens of articles 'spontaneously' wondering whether some
mantle of genius has passed from Apple to Microsoft. Neither Apple nor
Microsoft are particularly innovative companies. Microsoft is gradually moving
from the general purpose computer OS business to the locked down appliance
business that Apple pioneered, aiming for an unprotected flank _(did graphics
people really need Apple laptops? Nope - they 'd probably like a drafting
table with a tablet surface better)_, furiously press releasing its ass off,
and unleashing the shills.

edit:

"Apple just handed Microsoft the keys to the kingdom"

[https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-microsoft-macbook-pro-
surfac...](https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-microsoft-macbook-pro-surface-
studio-creative-professionals/)

How dumb do they think Mac users are? Pretty fucking dumb. I'm not sure
they're wrong, but it's going to take a lot more than a touchscreen on a stand
and a flood of credulous articles to make Microsoft cool.

------
amnesiac_200
So far at least; Candy Crush Saga has not repeatedly downloaded onto my Mac
without my permission and installed itself into my Dock; as 'a suggestion'. In
this respect at least; I will take the less innovative Apple every time.
Microsoft have embraced and extended the Apple App store concept into
something profoundly irritating; intrusive and annoying.

~~~
benaadams
Right click on the "suggestion" and select "turn off all suggestions" from the
menu provided

------
qwertyuiop924
When has it not been? Apple for the most part, doesn't innovate. They take
ideas and polish them to a mirror shine. MS actually does: they have a really
strong research department, and did a lot of things that were unheard of when
they did them.

Face it, Thinking Different has always been MS's ball. Them and the Unixes.

------
dirtbox
I feel like there aren't many professional artists on HN, but from that point
of view, Apple have been criminally negligent of the industry that made them
and MS have blown their doors clean off. It's a great time for artists, maybe
not so much for anyone else.

------
rorykoehler
Apple's ace is osx or macos as it's now called. Without this they would be
struggling in the professional computing market. They are already starting to
drop the ball on the hardware front. Luckily for them it will take far longer
to destroy osx.

~~~
erikbye
Will it take far longer? I don't know... if they continue this push of
implementing mobile features on macOS, trying to make it more and more like
iOS. This seems like it could be a very effective way of alienating even more
pro users. To an extent it has already happened.

Seems like Apple has become unwilling to spend resources on features pro users
want.

~~~
pivo
What, in your opinion, has Apple done to macOS to make it more like iOS that
alienates pro users? Has any iOS-like feature of macOS actually prevented you
from using macOS functionality?

I'm using Sierra and honestly haven't even noticed much difference from the
previous OS except for the siri icon on my toolbar.

~~~
erikbye
No, you’re right, it is not about a single iOS-like feature hampering "pro
user functionality". It is the amalgam effect of Apple’s efforts of catering
to the iPhone user, or the average Mac user, that alienates pro users. If you
look at headline features for Yosemite, El Capitan, and Sierra, there is not a
single "pro user" feature there, but plenty for your average Joe.

In short: the pro user segment is alienated by Apple’s seemingly indifferent
attitude towards them, and the increased integration, or synergy, of iOS with
macOS does not help in any way. Generally, pro and power users want
flexibility, options, customizability.

Apple seems hell bent on removing choice. Pro users were alienated when they
removed firewire connectivity, you need adapters and dongles for just about
everything now, and it’s not like this will be remedied with the 2016 MBP is
it? Then there is the sad thing that is Mac Pro... That is how Apple actually
forced a lot of pro users onto hackintosh systems, as unbelievable as that
sounds, but you can run a hackintosh and have a better, more flexible, more
performant, macOS experience, than with the real Mac Pro...

------
dschuetz
Well, okay, I admit. That they finally decided to build own hardware IS brave
(it's very expensive) and I think they will have success if they find
consumers who need it. The Surface line still lacks streamlined designs, the
products feel disconnected from each other. The only thing that connects them
is Windows 10 and that's also their weakness at the same time. So much
Microsoft wants me to love it, I just don't. Now that Microsoft build their
own hardware, they should start re-thinking their software business. Office?
Ugh.

~~~
mrweasel
I think Microsoft needs built it's own hardware. Windows isn't exactly a
delight to use, but it's only made worse by the crappy hardware most people
are running it on.

Currently my work laptop is an HP ProBook, and just as much to blame for my
poor Windows experience as Windows it self is.

------
MrScruff
This is a bizarre comparison. The Surface Studio is not in competition with
the MacBook Pro. It's closest analogue is something like the iPad Pro with a
stand I guess. Apple will not be making a direct competitor to the Surface
Studio because they aren't going to make a touch screen MacOS (the right
decision IMO).

I mean the Studio looks nice if you're an illustrator but there's no
obligation to compete with every niche product out there.

There are legitimate gripes with the new MacBook Pros (price mainly) but this
article's premise seems confused.

~~~
lmm
As a happy Surface Book user, I don't see how the Surface Studio is niche? I
don't use the touchscreen that often, but it's great to have it - why would
you ever not want touch to work? And there are some things that are a _lot_
better on a touchscreen. In 5 or 10 years every desktop computer will look
like the Surface Studio. At the moment it's a premium product (but so is
everything Apple makes).

~~~
oneeyedpigeon
> In 5 or 10 years every desktop computer will look like the Surface Studio.

Disagree. Maybe a lot of 'home' desktops will, but there will still be a need
for alternative form factors. In fact, I think desktop computers will look a
lot more diverse than maybe they ever have in 10 years time. I think we'll
have a bunch that look more or less like the Surface studio, for use by
illustrators, graphic designers, etc. But we'll also have computers that are
optimised for writers, developers, etc. These will have great keyboards.
They'll probably have a smaller, non-touch screen (I certainly don't want a
touch interface on my desktop, and I hope that option remains). I hope they'll
all have really, really good screens that are as 'flexible' as the studio (or
the old iMac G4).

~~~
lmm
But what illustrator/designer would choose to use a bad keyboard? And if we're
already assuming a desk, I don't think any writer or developer would choose a
small screen (and indeed today's "small" desktop screens are the same size as
the "artist/designer-only large" screens of a decade ago). Nor do I think
anyone would deliberately choose non-touch, since other things being equal
touch sensitivity is purely an upgrade (and the surface book shows touch
doesn't have to mean compromises on other aspects of the screen). At its
current price point the Surface Studio only makes sense for those who really
need its capabilities, but as a writer/developer I would absolutely use one if
it were cheap enough.

~~~
oneeyedpigeon
I have many non-technical acquaintances who don't want 'the biggest screen
possible' \- at a certain size, screens just get too big for most people. In
fact, 24" is probably about my personal limit - bigger than that, and I'm just
going to be moving my head too much for comfort.

I definitely wouldn't want a touchscreen on a desktop monitor. Unless it was
literally no more expensive or the only option - which, of course, may well be
the case one day. Don't get me wrong, I _do_ see the advantage of touch - the
original iPad is probably one of the most usable devices I've ever owned - but
it would be utterly wasted on a desktop for me. Again, maybe a family
computer, but not one that I wish to work on.

I would also love a Surface Studio, as a toy. I'm sure it's still a great
machine besides that, but I know I definitely wouldn't make good enough use of
it - I'm just not that good an artist.

~~~
lmm
I don't make "good enough use of" most of my computer's features - I'm not
really enough of a hardcore gamer for the graphics card, I rarely if ever need
as much memory/CPU/etc. as the machine. I don't think I've ever used the SD
card slot. Just like I don't think I've ever run my oven at maximum
temperature, or driven a car at top speed. Once a tool reaches the point where
it's cheap enough it's worth having a version that's a bit overbuilt.

------
OliverJones
Not being a designer who can justify a giant touchscreen, I don't know much
about that aspect of these new products.

But I do know Microsoft seems to be escaping the "BinG" (Ballmer is not Gates)
era. They no longer assume their customers are all either fleecable home users
or large orgs with deep pockets. Under Nadella, they've made life much easier
for independent and small developers.

It's good to applaud innovation. The mac vs. pc argument has been entirely
boring for an entire generation now.

------
erichocean
Someone give the people at Microsoft PR a raise: they are taking great
advantage of Apple's (hopefully) momentary weakness. Bravo!

------
zpallin
Neither Microsoft nor Apple are "brave". Both have tons of cash and
recognition. Neither are taking a company-threatening risk to release their
weird attempts at paradigm shifts in technology. Stop calling it "brave"
dammit or that word is going to become as meaningless as "pivot".

------
tmat
Windows as a software developer is not a fun experience. Until Windows
improves my ability to build shit in something other than .net, C#, etc(video
game dev not withstanding) and improves the command prompt to function more
like a console, I have no interest in going back what so ever.

~~~
tolger
As a heavy bash user I have to agree. Even the new Linux subsystem for Windows
terminals use the horrible command prompt. I wish they would port Ubuntu's
terminal app with tabs and much better usability.

------
pistle
Two things. "Brave" = risk and cost/benefited to death decisions that a bunch
of people don't understand

Generally speaking... Apple sells iPhones, Microsoft sells software

The overlap of their profit centers is minimal. Comparing perceived corporate
personalities is your click-bait for the day.

------
Zigurd
Are you that easily impressed by old wine (pun intended) in new bottles?

What happens when you have that fancy desktop tabletoid thing configured as an
easel and you use some non-touch, legacy application? On real touch devices,
you never have to change out of touch mode.

------
crb002
Microsoft's efforts in Z3 and Lean to make IDEs interactive theorem provers is
going to change how we code. I'm curious which will be the first to adopt
FPGAs and Micron Automata style processors in memory.

------
eva1984
Well it is not that hard to admit, actually it is quite obvious.

------
kyriakos
I'm surprised to see an article on Mashable with negative opinion about Apple.
Mashable and the likes are usually big Apple supporters.

------
snowwrestler
As opposed to writers at Mashable, who recognize a clear case of "pile on for
page views" when they see one.

------
scandox
Office 365 does not support opening CSV files and we're supposed to call them
innovative?

~~~
hyperbovine
Well, they do appear to be first to market with this "feature".

------
georgehaake
Nothing like being motivated by necessity...

------
joe563323
Fuck apple. Fuck Microsoft.

------
oldmanjay
One of my favorite things is when people who would have been in tech but for
the lack of ability then write articles using fuzzy emotional metrics to start
arguments about things they wish they understood.

------
pinaceae
how's the microsoft phone going?

MS always had concepts flying around, remember the fully automated house, the
courier, etc etc etc.

they always stumble on the last mile though - but now they release into
production anyway.

we had customers try to deploy surfacebooks and encounter failure rates of
more than 40%. turns out MS couldn't get the Intel Drivers straight. oh
shucks. innovation.

------
ebbv
Can we not post obvious clickbait horse shit like this on HN?

------
draw_down
Sure, just don't forget how that came to pass.

