
Chinese telecoms must use "AI and other technical means" to identify phone users - sahin-boydas
https://www.afp.com/en/news/3954/china-introduces-mandatory-face-scans-phone-users-doc-1mp8yr2
======
dang
All: if you comment in this thread, make sure your comments are substantive
and that they stay off the nationalistic indignation track. That is all too
easy to fall into, and it's off topic here.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
jakeogh
@dang I sincerely appreciate what you do. Euphemistically, it's not easy.
Please consider unflagging:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21679829](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21679829)

Code is speech.

------
devy
Just offering another perspective than most others had done here:

I grew up in China and have been in China a few times in the past 10 years -
the amount of Robocalls and phone scams was overwhelming (in fact, it was so
bad that dual SIM mobile phones became popular because you can have a
disposable SIM card for non-essential website registrations and one for family
members that you keep private use). I had my identity stolen after somehow I
went into China Mobile pop-up service storefront in PEK airport to get a local
SIM card. People on the line on my back was so close to the counter and
peeking application forms with all sorts of private data, which made me very
uncomfortable. There are also organized gangs that are operating in selling
people's private identity data like mobile phone numbers. Later it made sense
how my identify was stolen in retrospect.

Also, mobile phone number is essentially Chinese citizen's digital identity in
a way in that 99% of the website/online services use mobile phone number
instead of emails for authentications and 2FA. It's nearly impossible to sign
up for any Chinese website without giving your mobile phone number to complete
the sign up.

Given China's mobile-centric Internet boom, the amount of phone scams and
frauds and identity thefts going on and all businesses (including financial
institutions) are relying heavily on, it's a reasonably measure to counter
fraud with real identity tying in with mobile phone number issuance.

So no I don't think it's a political motivated move, even though the side
effect is making the abuse much more convenient.

~~~
datashow
I think you gave too much benefit of doubt to the CCP. The CCP can't care less
about phone scams and frauds. As a totalitarian state having total control of
the society, the government can track down the scammers anytime they want to.

There is no reason to believe the CCP does this to solve the robocalls or
phone scams. It would be laughable to think XiJinping and his gangs put this
issue on his priority list. The only reason is to locate every individual has
a different thought against the government.

~~~
mc32
I’m curious about one thing here. And maybe someone has ideas.

Both China and Soviet Union (probably others too but I don’t know), pre-
liberalization were your typical socialist state with lots of means to control
people, so they did but... but people didn’t engage in much petty crime or
gang crime.

Those types of crimes were more or less very unusual. But in those same states
today with more tools to control people, petty crime and gang-related crime
(as well as corruption but that kind of always existed), are through the roof.

And it’s not like either are soft on crime.

So what has given a rise to that criminal activity which for practical
purposes didn’t exist before. Is it opportunity? That is there was nothing to
gain from it before?

~~~
vkou
There wasn't much organized crime, in the sense of street gangs, in the more
urban areas of the Soviet Union. (The various rural provinces, especially in
the Soviet-occupied middle east are another story.) There was, of course,
plenty of petty crime, smuggling, and un-organized property and violent crime,
etc. [1]

The reason for this isn't surveillance or the harshness of punishments.

The reason for it was that when there's an easy default roadmap for your life
(School -> Gainful employment), you're not going to drop out of civilized
society, and into criminality at the age of 15.

It's not that there's more to gain from criminality now, compared to fifty
years ago. It's that there's less to lose. Instead of a social contract that
guarantees[2] employment, a shitty apartment, and food on your table, if you
just go through the motions, it's a dog-eat-dog-every-man-for-himself world.
Unsurprisingly, many people find it easier to drop out of that, and make a
living through crime.

[1] Without even mentioning the truly mind-blowing amount of low-level, and
high-level corruption that the USSR experienced.

[2] Employment wasn't _guaranteed_ \- people had to go apply for jobs, have
their employment and social records get checked, there was competition for
getting into good jobs, etc - but 100% employment was an official goal of the
state. This is not the case in either the West, or the East, anymore.

~~~
mc32
Thanks I think that explains the carrot portion. The various stick options
likely helped too—the various efforts to “eradicate counterrevolutionaries”
and decrying leniency and favoring resoluteness and setting goals for
executions likely has an impact.

~~~
vkou
After destalinization, nobody doing law enforcement in the USSR had execution
quotas, or was inventing counterrevolutionaries to eradicate.

------
MrBuddyCasino
They are already monitoring the chat apps. If you say unseemly things, expect
this:
[https://twitter.com/intypython/status/1200466904734785536?s=...](https://twitter.com/intypython/status/1200466904734785536?s=21)

Edit: changed link to original source

~~~
CWuestefeld
My wife has had a few messages "disappear" from WeChat (the Chinese Facebook),
and that were not removed by group admins. It seems that at the low end, at
least, they're content do just censor, and not take action against the
speaker.

~~~
CharlesColeman
> My wife has had a few messages "disappear" from WeChat (the Chinese
> Facebook), and that were not removed by group admins. It seems that at the
> low end, at least, they're content do just censor, and not take action
> against the speaker.

Is she in China or overseas? WeChat has different censorship policies for
domestic vs foreign accounts, and silent blocking sometimes occurs when
foreign accounts communicate with domestic accounts about sensitive topics
[1]. It's also not encrypted, and it appears messages are automatically
getting forwarded to the local (Chinese) police for investigation [2].

[1] We (can’t) Chat “709 Crackdown” Discussions Blocked on Weibo and WeChat:
[https://citizenlab.ca/2017/04/we-cant-chat-709-crackdown-
dis...](https://citizenlab.ca/2017/04/we-cant-chat-709-crackdown-discussions-
blocked-on-weibo-and-wechat/)

[2] Over 300 million Chinese private messages were left exposed online:
[https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/4/18250474/chinese-
messages-...](https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/4/18250474/chinese-messages-
millions-wechat-qq-yy-data-breach-police)

~~~
CWuestefeld
_Is she in China or overseas? WeChat has different censorship policies for
domestic vs foreign accounts_

Fair enough. This was with an account that was registered within China, but
the traffic is physically originating from the USA.

------
crazygringo
The title sounds intentionally provocative -- "face scanned" appears to be
just "have their photo taken". I can't find a single source that suggests
anything more than that.

Which isn't much different from having your photo taken for your driver's
license, passport, or at the border, all of which the US does.

Burner phones are mostly associated with criminal activity, so tying phones to
identities feels like a legitimate function -- which many countries do. And if
criminals are trying to register phones through identity theft, this seems
like it would be an additional protection.

If you're concerned with privacy, that's what encrypted communications are
for, and if you don't want to be tracked by radio, then don't take _any_ phone
with you.

~~~
dang
Ok, we've put "photo taken" in the title above. Thanks.

~~~
kevcampb
It's not "photo taken"

[https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/12/02/china-tightens-
cybersp...](https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/12/02/china-tightens-cyberspace-
controls-introducing-mandatory-face-scans-phone-users)

A China Unicom customer service representative told AFP that the December 1
“portrait matching” requirement means customers registering for a new phone
number may have to record themselves turning their head and blinking.

~~~
dang
Thanks—that's a better article. I've switched to the AFP version of it.
(Submitted URL was [https://www.technologyreview.com/f/614781/all-new-
cellphone-...](https://www.technologyreview.com/f/614781/all-new-cellphone-
users-in-china-must-now-have-their-face-scanned/.))

Reading it closely, though, the evidence on the face-scanning point seems
weak. The source is a customer service representative who said _may_. That's
two weak points: a customer service representative is not who you'd normally
ask about policy, and "may" also means "may not". Also, that's the only thing
that particular source is quoted about.

I'm not sure what to do, because there doesn't seem to be anything unambiguous
in the English-language press. All the articles I've looked are reporting on
the same directive that was issued in Sept and took effect Dec 1. So I guess
we'll quote the directive in the title above. If anyone can suggest a more
accurate title we can change it again.

------
classichasclass
Not that there's any moral equivalence, but when I'm in Australia visiting in-
laws, I have to provide my passport or similar ID to get my PAYG SIM
activated. I just have them swipe it at the airport and my SIM is on in 10
minutes. My wife admits it's a lot easier in the States to get a PAYG SIM;
AT&T doesn't care who she is as long as there's money in the account.

I'm not sure why Australia does that, but it's really annoying.

~~~
grecy
I just drove around Africa, and I bought a pre-paid SIM in about 30 different
countries. Every single one of them required a copy of my passport.

~~~
sudosysgen
In Morocco at least they do ask for your passport if you want free or
discounted cell service, but you can always go to a corner store and just get
a Sim card from there.

~~~
grecy
Sure, and it stops working a few days later. I had that happen a few times,
then stopped buying SIM cards from random people on the street (or corner
stores) and so would go into the actual carrier store (MTN or whatever)

~~~
sudosysgen
Well, at least in Morocco when I lived there I got my SIM card from the corner
store and used it for a good year and a half.

------
proc0
I feel there are rising tensions in China between their pseudo-free market and
their apparent attempts at controlling and micro-managing the lives of their
people. It would seem the rise of their consumer economy would also give rise
to a demand for more freedom on a day to day basis to allow for innovation.
It's interesting to see China going simultaneously in both contradicting
directions.

~~~
asdff
I can't imagine the cognitive dissonance required to go to university in the
U.S. for 4 years then return to China after being exposed to uncensored media.

------
Erwin
SIM cards bought in Italy have long required showing photo ID in person and
also some kind of SSN like number used for various financial transactions.

I needed to acquire that fiscal SSN when buying wine from an Italian web shop
but weirdly it's a computed value, not a unique ID you get from some
organization:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_fiscal_code](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_fiscal_code)

~~~
qxnqd
SIM cards bought in Spain require you to show your ID card, which means the
authorities can link such SIM to your name, your face, and your fingerprints.

~~~
int_19h
It's very common around the world in general. That doesn't make it right, of
course - it just means that the surveillance state is more widespread than
commonly assumed.

------
bllguo
China's decisions are easy to understand if you grok the underlying motives.
HN should know better than most how things become more difficult at scale.
Governance at China's scale is a different beast. Clearly the way the CCP is
tackling it is by prioritizing efficiency and the good of the whole, over
individuals and personal liberties. If you want to effect change then think
about how you might make a case against that philosophy. The west certainly
isn't doing a good job right now. Not sure if democracy has ever looked worse
than it does today.

~~~
kerakaali
I feel it's important to make reference to primary material [0] to bring more
attention to CCP goals. It certainly helped me in becoming aware of their
actions as another major state actor.

[0]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Document_Number_Nine](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Document_Number_Nine)

------
gregimba
Traveling to Germany I had to provide my passport to get a SIM card. When I
was going through customs stateside I had a photo taken with my passport. Not
sure if this is the new standard but other countries are implementing the same
laws/procedures and while I disagree with china we shouldn't hold them to a
different standard than other nations.

~~~
Vesuvium
There are countries where getting a SIM card always required an ID or
passport.

------
usaar333
I'm confused about the enforcement here. I just bought a temporary sim from
[https://www.3gsolutions.com.cn](https://www.3gsolutions.com.cn) (which I've
used multiple times before when visiting) and didn't provide any id.

~~~
yorwba
The SIM you bought was almost certainly registered by an employee of the
company. Unless you do something that makes the authorities want to find the
person behind your phone number, it's unlikely they'll get in trouble.

~~~
bowmessage
Wow, that’s brazen. Explains how I was able to top up my WeChat wallet through
PayPal once before a visit, though.

------
tanilama
Does this affect foreigners? If I have a AT&T plan, it should work out-of-box
in China via roaming? Hope that is the case...

~~~
z2
Always roam when in China for short trips. The way cellular networks work is
that roaming plans tend to route back home, so that your access is unfiltered.

The plan could affect foreigners but it was hard for years already, in that
most cellular stores require a Chinese ID to register monthly service (not all
take passports). I used to get the salesperson or security guard to lend their
ID in my stead, and this is exactly what this policy seems designed to
prevent. Hotels and train stations have operated under facial authentication
for a couple of years too for Chinese nationals. This seems to be along the
same vein, to ensure the person is who the ID says they are. In other words,
it's handing over the ID-checking from a person to an awkward police-
sanctioned box.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
The China Mobile stands in the airport that sell SIMs take passports...you’ll
find them in international baggage claim, and also in the terminal.

I’ve only successfully roamed with T-mobile on WiFi. Maybe its better now?

~~~
CharlesColeman
> I’ve only successfully roamed with T-mobile on WiFi. Maybe its better now?

I roamed on T-Mobile pretty successfully using a cell connection last year,
but I had to buy a $20 1G data pass and some other passes for it to work. It
was worth it for the reliable unfiltered internet access.

My current T-Mobile One plan was worse for this than my old grandfathered
(Select Choice?) plan, which could limp along at 2G speeds out of the box and
only needed the data pass for usable speed.

------
gruez
for point of comparison: map of European countries that require ID to buy
prepaid sim cards[1], worldwide list[2]

[1] [https://i.imgur.com/cCFX1wC.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/cCFX1wC.jpg)

[2] [https://prepaid-data-sim-
card.fandom.com/wiki/Registration_P...](https://prepaid-data-sim-
card.fandom.com/wiki/Registration_Policies_Per_Country)

~~~
x__x
It's been 10+ years since I signed up for a cell phone. What is required today
when you get a new account at the major carriers today in the US?

~~~
dylz
SSN and hard pull at all postpaid carriers, even if you bring your own phone.

Most major[0] stores I've seen check ID at checkout time before activating a
prepaid SIM.

[0] Go to any immigrant-dense area, look for a corner store, and you can
probably just top up in cash and ignore this.

------
NedIsakoff
I live in China for over 10 years and I don't see the purpose of this.

Remember that this doesn't apply to roaming users or people buying Travel SIM
for China, but those people are not a big worry.

To get a SIM card right now in China you need to have valid identification.
The only ones that are acceptable are: 1) China Resident Identity Card; or 2)
non-Chinese passport. Both of these already have photos.

------
elliotlee
I searched for the law. They need a photo id for a new phone number to reduce
phone scams. I think it is good.

~~~
stri8ed
Spammers don't use cell phones to make their calls. Most often they just spoof
calls using random peoples phone numbers. This would have no effect on spam
calls. (I assume you mean phone-spam when you say phone scam?)

Not to be paranoid, but you really created a HN account just to add this
comment?

~~~
throw476543
I’m not the person you asked, but I create throwaway accounts when commenting
on sensitive topics so I don’t get harassed irl and since you can’t delete
accounts on HN.

------
mytailorisrich
China has been requiring IDs to buy SIM card for at least 20 years.

Chinese also already have ID cards, 'hukou' (a sort of domestic passport),
etc. so I would imagine that the government already has everyone's face on
record.

Thus, this seems about enforcing the requirement to provide ID when buying a
SIM, because enforcement of rules can be problematic in China.

Which reminds me...

They are (obviously?) having problems collecting sales tax. So at one point
they are issuing formal receipts as vouchers that eg. restaurants had to buy
form the tax office. A sort of advance payment. When a customer asked for a
receipt the restaurant gave them a number of these vouchers.

The smart idea is that they had turned these vouchers into scratch cards to
encourage people to request a receipt...

------
brndnmg
In South Africa we have had to abide by FICA act for many years already,
months of bank statements, identity document, proof of address etc., there has
already been abuses of this information to identify corruption leaks to
reporters...

------
throw476543
At first I got the impression a photo was required when buying a new
cellphone, but this appears to be just for new numbers.

China already requires an ID to get a number, so I don’t see how requiring a
photo will help them track people even more? Maybe it gives them an updated
photo? However, if you don’t get a new number every few years, then it’s
useless.

My own country requires a photo ID to get a number and I’ve been to several
other countries that do as well. I guess I’m just used to it now. Similar to
how we put our photos on resumes, but my American friends were shocked by
that.

~~~
officeplant
Photo's on a resume is still a pretty strange request in America because it
factors into possible discrimination.

However identification is required in the US only when starting a contract
phone servie (for Credit inquiries). If you don't want your name attached to
the phone number it has to be prepaid. Which always made me chuckle
considering the two most common people to give us obviously fake names for
prepaid phones were drug dealers and police. I've had days working in phone
retail where someone came in and started a prepaid line under "John Doe" and
paid for it out of a roll of 100's in their sock. Then an hour later I've got
an officer in uniform handing me a name and address he needs put on a cheap
burner prepaid phone.

------
CalChris
Are we any different? I want to think so but drivers licenses and passports
are scanned photos. The California DMV even sells this information.

~~~
proc0
Just look up videos on youtube of westerners who live in China so that you can
easily understand the giant chasm of difference between the cultures and
system. Even if CA does something similar, there are ways to keep your privacy
protected, especially if you're willing to go out of your way and get a
lawyer. In China you're basically owned by the government and good luck trying
to find workarounds without feeling like you're a wanted criminal.

~~~
thereare5lights
> especially if you're willing to go out of your way and get a lawyer.

That is out of reach for the vast majority of Americans

------
azifali
All cellphone users in India also have their biometrics (Aadhar) linked to
their phone numbers..

This has been a requirement for a while now..

------
Shivetya
I am not going to defend it nor denounce it.

Having reread Oath of Fealty recently I am really of the belief it won't be
long before we end up with heavily monitored enclaves simply out of a desire
of many to not put one thought into their own safety and security if
surrounded by like minded individuals who all give up privacy in order to
guarantee the safety and security of the group.

All the photo apps today that are associated with youth involve many many
pictures of themselves they tag with identifiable information so it is not a
big leap to think that this level of privacy is not something they consider a
big deal. To them their image is their identity and they want to be
recognized. Privacy would only mean protecting what they chose not to make
public.

There certainly is this odd occurrence where we have many denouncing loss of
privacy who at the same time ask the government to do more for them which
requires giving up more information to more groups. It really comes down to,
which items of your identity are public and private. your image certainly is
public and why would you in any sane society be afraid of that association?

------
EGreg
I already wrote about this in the past and assumed it was the case in the USA.
Hard to get a burner phone in person these days. As long as our infrastructure
is run by centralized or federated organizations, this is what will be the
case.

I suggested sending in homeless people to get the phone if it’s a prepaid one.

But more to the point, if you want anonymity in such a regime, you have to
commandeer other people’s accounts and hope they don’t get in trouble. This is
what botnets do, etc. But you may be able to use payphones or libraries or
hotel phones etc. as long as you cover your face, fake your gait etc. and even
that may not be enough when we are talking about heartbeat signatures,
infrared signatures and so on.

Timing attacks, style of writing analysis etc. can also be used to easily out
someone these days. Anonymity is quite fragile.

Read more about the mechanics here... it goes back to the Digital Imprimatur
of 2003 which started it all for me

[http://magarshak.com/blog/?p=114](http://magarshak.com/blog/?p=114)

------
aaron695
Interesting, slightly credible claim they got caught jaywalking through facial
recognition and had their account automatically deducted with a fine.

They are unsure how -

[https://youtu.be/taZJblMAuko?t=1535](https://youtu.be/taZJblMAuko?t=1535)

------
ParanoidShroom
Registering a sim card in Vietnam also requires your photo to be taken. Is
this an Asia thing ?

~~~
vbezhenar
Kazakhstan implemented identification for SIM cards few years ago, just ID, no
photo. Also recently it implemented identification for IMEI numbers as well.
I'm not sure why, apparently they want to fight phone stealing, but I'm not
very convinced.

------
s9w
In Germany you can't have a SIM card without registration (address, ID and
everything).

------
devy
Interestingly, there is another post about a tangential topic about privacy
and data collection.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21684708](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21684708)

------
zeroes
Getting a SIM card in Taiwan also requires a photo taken at the computer (for
foreigners) in addition to passport. In HK, you can buy sim for roaming use in
mainland and Taiwan without any form of registration.

------
oh_sigh
This doesn't seem much different from Spain, where I need to scan my passport
to buy a SIM, and they already have my face on record?

------
epx
In Brazil, was taken a face picture when lost a phone and had to get a new SIM
card, no change in number or contract.

------
corporate_shi11
When a nation is a superpower, it is able to influence the behavior of weaker
states. It will exert its influence for a variety of reasons, but it is
inevitable that with power comes the exertion of influence.

China will use its power to prop up autocratic regimes across the world and
export its technology and methods to make such autocracy possible and
sustainable.

China represents a threat to global democracy which must be recognized and
must be treated as such.

~~~
braythwayt
Without agreeing or disagreeing with them, we should accept that people have
said exactly the same things about the USA, about the Soviet Union, about
Russia, about Britain... And on and on.

I am not trying to play “whatabout,” but I do ask: Is there anything different
about China’s behaviour as a superpower? Or are we just seeing a shift in
which superpowers have world influence?

At the moment I write this, the front page of HN has an article about China
and facial recognition... But also an article about US schools monitoring
student emails.

Which seems to me like training a generation of citizens to understand that
they live in a prison without walls.

~~~
corporate_shi11
I think comparisons like this ignore something fundamental, which is the
values that both countries champion.

The USA is a democracy and has by and large championed democracy around the
world. China is ruled by a 1974 style dictatorship, a country ruled by a
single Party not the rule of law.

Comparisons between the US and the CCP conveniently ignore this, yet it is
what really matters.

Law enforcement will always exist in a nation of laws, yet the simple fact
that law enforcement exists both in a dictatorship and in a democracy does not
lead us to conclude democracy and dictatorship exist on an equal moral
footing.

The underlying values matter.

~~~
Miner49er
If you look at China's constitution they value the same stuff as the United
States. They are a democracy by their values, just like the U.S.

Words are meaningless if not backed up by action.

~~~
readbeard
Interesting! As I was completely unfamiliar with China's constitution, I
pulled up the Wikipedia article and the source document. Supporting your
point, here is a particularly surprising (to me) article:

> Article 35. Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of
> speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession and of
> demonstration. [0]

Also, from the introduction section of the Wikipedia article:

> Though technically the "supreme legal authority" and "fundamental law of the
> state", the ruling Chinese Communist Party has a documented history of
> violating many of the constitution's provisions and censoring calls for
> greater adherence to it. Furthermore, claims of violations of constitutional
> rights cannot be used in Chinese courts, and the National People's Congress
> Constitution and Law Committee, the legislative committee responsible for
> constitutional review, has never ruled a law or regulation unconstitutional.
> [1]

[0]
[http://en.people.cn/constitution/constitution.html](http://en.people.cn/constitution/constitution.html)
[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_People%27s...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China)

~~~
whoevercares
The Constitution of China changes every few years. There’s no enforcement or
practical meaning at all

------
walrus01
Canadian here: Ezra Levant is far, far right. He was part of the now defunct
Sun news Network. This may be a case of a broken clock being right twice a
day.

He's basically the Canadian version of Breitbart.

~~~
dang
We detached this subthread from
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21685294](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21685294)
and marked it off-topic.

~~~
MrBuddyCasino
thanks!

------
2OEH8eoCRo0
I've had past accounts shadow banned for what I assume is posting in threads
like this.

~~~
dang
If you want to mention specific links we can take a look at what happened
there. Without links, though, a comment like this doesn't add much
information.

We detached this comment from
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21685327](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21685327).

------
givinguflac
When I was younger I wanted to visit China. Currently I have no plans to ever
do so, China is a scary country.

~~~
dang
Ok, but please don't post unsubstantive comments to HN, and definitely not
nationalistic flamebait.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
serf
I think 'nationalistic flamebait' should be better defined; as time goes on it
feels as if any negative comment about any world power is being pigeon-holed
into that category, and I think that's incorrect.

It's important to talk about the worlds' woes. Shining light onto issues is
how they're resolved.

This thread's topic is about yet another step to reduce anonymity in China.
This trend of full-disclosure with regards to any kind of society move (
getting a cell phone, paying a bill, boarding a bus, etc ) _IS_ scary,
regardless of the country that employs it.

Lots of countries, not excluding China, have terrible human rights violations
that need to be talked about. These kind of issues _do_ make the place a scary
proposition to visit for foreigners and tourists -- and furthermore I share
the commenters opinion; as a younger person I wanted to travel around China,
as an older person who has witnessed recent events, I no longer want to. It's
not flamebait, and it's relevant to the thread; these kind of societal
decisions sway tourists like myself away from your coutry, regardless of which
country it may be.

Can't we reserve 'nationalistic flamebait' for the really ludicrous and racist
comments that float around the nation-based threads, rather than the useless
anecdotes?

~~~
dang
I think you've picked a bad example to make this argument about. "China is a
scary country" is an unsubstantive negative statement about an entire country.
It isn't nuanced. It's not qualified in any way. That easily falls under
whatever moderation rule we might apply.

People often seem to think they're making nuanced factual statements when
they're actually making blanket emotional ones. Those have degrading effects
on discussion here when they're about entire nations, entire classes of
people, and so on—and they're easy to avoid if one chooses to.

Part of the issue is that HN threads feel like intimate conversation—which is
wonderful and something we consciously cultivate. But it's all fully in public
and the audience is large and highly international. Because that gap isn't
obvious, it leads people to say things which might be inconsequential in a
small group, but are just the opposite here.

It only takes a little objectivity and/or empathy to get what it must feel
like to come to HN and encounter putdowns of one's country or one's
demographic. That's not cool, and fortunately it's not necessary, so
commenters here are responsible for clearly disambiguating their comments from
that.

~~~
givinguflac
You are really insulting. If you want to remove my comment, remove my comment.
Don’t sit there and make up crap about it. Please tell me how it’s an
emotional statement and not purely objective unless you wanna hide your head
in the sand from the horrific things China has done and is continuing to do.

Edit: seems you can't even follow your own rules, both for insulting me and
"Don't feed egregious comments by replying; flag them instead. If you flag,
please don't also comment that you did." So is my comment egregious and
shouldn't be replied to, or is it fine??

------
dfcagency
I had to provide a passport to purchase a throwaway T-Mobile data SIM in
Germany. Seems normal to me.

------
rpmcmurdo
The irony is that the people complaining about this are the same ones who are
gleefully sharing their personal details and narrative on social media, and
Facebook in particular. The only difference between mass surveillance in the
US and China is that 99% of the US population happily opts in or doesn't care.

~~~
JPKab
I don't disagree with you, but government compulsion makes this a different
animal entirely.

The bigger context is that in the US, there is SUPPOSED to be a system in
which companies can successfully resist government demands (remember that
Apple did this to the FBI when they wanted to crack a criminal's phone
passcode), whereas in China, that cannot happen. So yes, people give away
their data for stupid conveniences, but Facebook/Google etc aren't supposed to
share the data with the government. They have done so, as Snowden revealed, so
this is by no means a perfect system.

What really upsets me about China's system is the bigger system of social
credit this ties into. You can't get on flights want your score gets too low.
The guy exposing fake martial arts masters isn't allowed to leave the country.

~~~
mindslight
There is much less "government compulsion" in the US, but in its place is
still de facto compulsion. In general, comparisons with the US are difficult
because in the US large corporations are given the power of defining much of
societal policy.

Saying that " _Facebook /Google etc aren't supposed to share the data with the
government_" only makes sense in some abstract sense of it wasn't supposed to
be like this. But power tends to coalesce - the only "supposed to" is in some
abstract moral stewardship sense, a responsibility that has been long
forgotten by the business community, if it ever existed in the first place.
Facebook/Google want to agglomerate data from the financial surveillance
bureaus, and the (nominal) government buys the proceeds from both of them in a
"free market" transaction. And then on the output/control side, companies use
these surveillance databases to weed out "undesirable" customers, with their
competitors following in lock step lest they end up with even more
undesirables.

