
Mercedes kills their only electric car - prostoalex
https://electrek.co/2017/07/31/mercedes-kills-electric-b-class/
======
headconnect
Here in Norway, where electric cars abound, I've only seen a few electric
B's.. Considering the incentives, it's not the price putting people off, it's
a combination of the overall value proposition compared to the alternatives
and the dedication and support from the manufacturer. This news makes sense in
light of that.

I've always seen the B as and attractive alternative to the Leaf, e-golf,
Renault Zoë and Hyundai ionic, but it's never received the attention in the
form of battery updates, range improvement and general buzz that the
aforementioned have. It's basically a large city car (as in size of the car,
not the city), and while that makes sense, without the secondary capability of
making it to the cabin (norwegians are quite fond of their cabins), it's
become a bit of a non-starter. People are then more likely to go for a Tesla
(which is an insane value proposition here) or an i3.

~~~
struppi
A while ago, I tried to configure an electric B, just for fun. Not that I was
trying to buy one, because I don't have a permanent parking lot where I would
mount the charger right now...

There were only two things that would really put me off:

* The car was super-expensive. With a few extras, it was ~45000 Euros, IIRC * Range was too limited (160km IIRC).

Now, if I could mount a charger, I would probably consider a <35000€, >300km
A-Class, if such a thing existed.

------
protomyth
“The B-class EV was originally a collaboration between Mercedes and Tesla.
Mercedes, who used to be a big investor in Tesla but has since sold their
stake, used a Tesla drive system to power the car.”

I would imagine they are going in a new direction and want to clear away the
old.

~~~
manmal
Yes, they clean the house before the Bs damage their electric car reputation.

------
adrianN
In Germany there are discussions about banning diesels from cities because of
the emission scandal. All car manufacturers have their PR machine in overdrive
to try and prevent any such bans. One of the central arguments is that they
are pushing for electric vehicles and the market will self-regulate...

~~~
awjr
The argument fails to a certain degree. I own a 10 year old 3L Diesel Jeep
(tow horses at the weekends). Given the lifecycle of the average car, we're
not talking about eradicating diesels the moment the EVs go on sale, but 15+
years before most vanish from the streets of our cities.

Diesels are going to be a problem for decades even if we stopped all sales
right now.

I still have not seen a capable towing e SUV on the market yet .

~~~
perbu
I've seen the Tesla Model X can tow horses, camping trailers, cars and boats
without breaking a sweat. The power consumption naturally goes up and towing
something heavy for hundreds of kilometers is problematic if you're going
outside the Tesla supercharger network.

The X is quite expensive, though. Hopefully there will be more affordable
models coming to market over the next few years. But the technology to build a
SUV capable of towing several tons is already here.

Quite a few cities will likely ban diesel driven cars from entering the city
core at some point in the near future and this will to a certain extent
obviate diesel powered cars.

~~~
briandear
The problem with electric SUVs is that if you’re in the back country for days
or weeks at a time, the ability to carry extra fuel or have the reliability
required is a major selling point. When you’re up in the mountains or in very
rural areas, the last thing you need is to wonder where a charging station
might be. Additionally, in emergency situations when power might be down, you
can’t easily charge a vehicle from a generator, but you can easily (and
quickly) fill up from storage tanks. I also wonder about a model X’s ability
to cross high water or remain capable in harsh conditions. For example, what’s
the Model X performance in Alaska or Yukon style subarctic conditions? I would
be not particularly good.

However, the vast majority of SUV users are essentially commuter vehicles so
electric might be a suitable replacement. Most people don’t use SUVs for their
intended purpose, but more as a stylish minivan – an area an X would seem to
excel. It’s essentially a rich soccer mom car.

$100k for a Tesla X is a bit ridiculous. I could buy a nicely equipped Land
Rover for that and not have to worry where the closest supercharger might be.
I also can be confident of cold and harsh condition performance.

Obviously this will change as tech improves, but for the near term, an
electric SUV isn’t a serious car, but a show-off toy, albeit a very expensive
and nice one.

~~~
kbart
_" what’s the Model X performance in Alaska or Yukon style subarctic
conditions? I would be not particularly good."_

There are many Teslas in Norway, which is also known for its harsh conditions,
so I'd guess it's not that bad at least.

~~~
justadeveloper2
For whatever reason, when I think of Norway, I don't imagine hard-working blue
collar type people who work out in the cold or need to get to work in sub-zero
temps the way we do here in the northern US states and Alaska. I'm sure some
people in Norway can't screw around with unreliable crap, though, right?

------
_ph_
I can really only hope that this is done in preparation of a truly well
designed Mercedes electric car. The cancelled car was a car usually sold with
combustion engines, equipped with a Tesla supplied electrical drivetrain. So
it was a pretty crummy electrical car.

~~~
grecy
> _I can really only hope that this is done in preparation of a truly well
> designed Mercedes electric car._

I was thinking the same thing.

Surely being so soon after the Model 3 launch can't be pure coincidence.

------
thewhitetulip
Yes, they are now trying to lobby against electric. Here, in India the Merc
India CEO says that full electric would be as harmful to the environment as
BS4 standards etc

~~~
mukundmr
India is fast adapting solar and it is expected to wean off coal in the next
few decades. Solar, not coal, is India's future by 2030: Report -
[http://www.business-standard.com/article/economy-
policy/sola...](http://www.business-standard.com/article/economy-policy/solar-
not-coal-is-india-s-future-by-2030-report-117061500891_1.html) There is a
bigger and more pressing problem with internal combustion engines. Due to the
population and vehicle density, smog is a real issue in cities and the air is
becoming toxic. Electric vehicles help address that issue.

~~~
thewhitetulip
I am waiting for the day I can buy reliable solar lanterns which work :-)

------
jamesmattis
Scared by Tesla? I believe that Tesla is far ahead of any electric car maker
in the world right now. The three stage vision of making an affordable car by
Elon Musk is now a reality.

Most of the elite car makers like Mercedes and BMW cannot price their units
down to $35000.

Tesla didn't only think of making a car but also they have created a web of
charging stations in US.

Tesla Model 3 will be everywhere by 2020.

~~~
dovdovdov
Well, I only saw a model X on Cebit, although the materials are good quality,
the build quality is poor for the price. Then I saw a hybrid Porsche, and the
X felt like a higher mid class suv in comparison. Worry not about German
carmakers, they have infinite money to throw at any project. Once they decide
to go serious about electric, Tesla won't be able to keep up with the
competition. Don't get me wrong, I root for everyone, mainly for our future,
but stop daydreaming.

~~~
flexie
German car makers don't have infinite money. They run huge operations on tiny
margins and cannot afford to cannibalize the sale of their upper-end cars with
cheaper electric cars.

The Model 3 is comparable to the C-Class in both price and size but vastly
outperforms the C-Class on driving performance if the reviews are to be
believed. The bling-bling leather, chrome and wood of the German high-end cars
is more luxurious, but is not for everyone.

Let's see. My guess is as good as yours but I think the Germans will bleed if
they don't transition to EVs very fast. If Tesla has the market for itself in
all of 2018-2020, it might be too late for VW, BMW and Mercedes-Benz.

Right now, they have plans and talk, but not a single competitive EV on the
market, no fleet of hundreds of thousands of self driving cars recording and
learning, no network of superchargers, no thousands of talented EV and AI
engineers, no remote update, no battery factories.

I sure hope they wake up. Competition will only be good for us consumers.

~~~
bgarbiak
There are many other cars that could be compared to Model 3. Mazdas, VWs,
Hyundais, Hondas. If we take only size, price, performance and interior
quality into consideration then Model 3 is certainly not the best choice. But
it's an EV. And others are not.

~~~
Thlom
There's a lot of EV's comparable to the Model 3 in both price and range.
There's a lot of EV's comparable to the Model 3 in range and price. VW e-golf
costs about the same (or less) with comparable range and size. Hyundai IONIQ
is cheaper with about the same range and size. Then you have the ugly EV's
like Nissan Leaf and Kia Soul. Cheaper and with comparable range and size
(perhaps a bit smaller trunk).

~~~
grecy
> _There 's a lot of EV's comparable to the Model 3 in both price and range_

No, there isn't.

Here's a chart made by a Redditor comparing price with range of all the Evs on
the market. Checkout how much of an outlier the Model 3 Long Range is.

Even the Standard Model 3 has much more range than all the other EVs except
the Bolt, and other Teslas.

[http://i.imgur.com/M4o8czW.png](http://i.imgur.com/M4o8czW.png)

~~~
dingo_bat
Why are people not hyped about the bolt as much as they are about 3? It looks
like a comparable car which is available now, instead of in 2019.

~~~
justin66
It's a GM, so it looks like it was made to appear in a Transformers movie and
people trust a largely unproven manufacturer like Tesla to make something more
reliable.

------
dingo_bat
Mercedes and BMW and Volkswagen are going to be dead (or faint shadows of
their current state) within this decade (2027). Exactly what has happened to
Nokia, Siemens and Ericsson is going to repeat itself. I would wager smaller
players like Hyundai will adapt and hang on, maybe even innovate at a later
date. Tough to predict Toyota and Honda though. The Japanese are clever in
their ways.

Say what you want but American entrepreneurs do have an unbelievable appetite
for disruption.

~~~
eknkc
BMW has i3 (pure electric) and i8 (plug in hybrid). I drive a i3 daily and I'd
say they have done a good job. It looks ugly but range is acceptable,
performance is better than other options (Tesla is not here in my country) and
the quality seems to be good overall.

I believe they'll adapt just fine.

~~~
dingo_bat
The difference is Tesla has a plan to scale up. How is BMW going to acquire
all the batteries needed if they want to start selling 10x the number of i3s?
They may adapt, but will surely lose their comfortable position in the market.

~~~
bildung
I very much doubt that Tesla is in any special position right now. Tesla just
has better marketing. First, Tesla needs to scale up because it currently
produces tiny numbers of cars (70k) compared to Toyota (10 million), VW (10
million) and the other existing car companies.

And Teslas Giga Factory is nothing special. Much of the know how is bought in
from Panasonic. Gigafacory is behind the planned production time. And China
alone is expected to produce more than 3 times the output of Gigafactory in
2021 ([https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-28/china-
is-...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-28/china-is-about-to-
bury-elon-musk-in-batteries)).

~~~
dingo_bat
> Tesla just has better marketing.

Agreed. But that doesn't mean they aren't better technically, too. Case in
point: Apple

> First, Tesla needs to scale up because it currently produces tiny numbers of
> cars (70k) compared to Toyota (10 million), VW (10 million) and the other
> existing car companies.

Except that the 10 million number does not matter if their entire system is
set up to make exploding-fuel cars. The only thing common is the external
shell and the dash electronics. The real expertise and resource is needed to
make the rest of the stuff. And Tesla is ahead in that.

> And Teslas Giga Factory is nothing special.

Please point me to a battery factory this big, set up exclusively to supply
batteries for one EV model.

> And China alone is expected to produce more than 3 times the output of
> Gigafactory in 2021

Oh you mean an entire country (also one of the biggest producers of
manufactured goods) is going to produce only 3x the amount of batteries made
by _one_ factory, about 3 years later? Man that makes me more hyped for Tesla!

~~~
bildung
_> Except that the 10 million number does not matter if their entire system is
set up to make exploding-fuel cars. The only thing common is the external
shell and the dash electronics. The real expertise and resource is needed to
make the rest of the stuff. And Tesla is ahead in that._

It's all about logistics, infrastructure and capital. Have a look at this
video:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VreG1iC65Lc&feature=youtu.be...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VreG1iC65Lc&feature=youtu.be&t=23)

Switching to batteries essentially just means reprogramming those robots.

 _> Please point me to a battery factory this big, set up exclusively to
supply batteries for one EV model._

Please point me to a factory that actually produces 35GWh/a ;)

~~~
dingo_bat
That video is awesome, it almost looks like the car factory in minority
report!

------
demarq
I would have thought the car would have been a valuable platform for them gain
knowledge and insight into the electric side of the industry.

If some years later they decide to start again, they'll have lost significant
advantage, and I'm not talking about the technology side of things but the
rest of the business mix that's involved.

~~~
skgoa
The electric B-class used Tesla drivetrains. Mercedes are switching to their
own electric drivetrains.

------
merb
> So there’s a tip for everyone – if you don’t want a dealership to call you
> back, just tell them you’re looking to buy an EV.

lol.

------
pmlnr
Good. Now start working on hydrogen-cell, like the Japanese.

~~~
MagnumOpus
They've been working for it for 25 years and have been the first-mover in the
area: [https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-
Benz_NECAR](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_NECAR)

Current iteration of their fuel cell efforts:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_F-
Cell](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_F-Cell)

However they don't believe in it any more and will likely stop
development/research: [http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1109713_did-
mercedes-tur...](http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1109713_did-mercedes-
turn-its-back-on-hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicles)

~~~
skgoa
That last article is not true. They are actively working on it right now. In
fact they are incredibly proud of a recent breakthrough: having reduced the
required rare earths to 90% of what is currently available on the market.
Source: the head of that R&D program said it.

