
The Serenity of a 5pm Bedtime - ngokevin
http://ngokevin.com/blog/5pm/
======
AlexDanger
I always considered myself a night owl. I'd stay up until 2-3am for the night
time serenity. My partner and others disapproved and considered it unhealthy.

Now I wake around 3-4 am and get the same night time serenity. But the
perception of this patten is different. I'm considered an early riser -
disciplined and driven.

I've noticed my concentration is much better under the new early rising
regime.

Here's my schedule:

\- 4 am. Wake up. Depending on my mood and deadlines I'll either jump straight
into work or take some leisure time surfing the web.

\- 5 am. Dog wakes up and makes it clear that we're going for a walk. So we go
to the park and play. The park is empty at this early hour so its good for
training.

\- 7am. If I havent done so already I start work to coincide with my team on
the other side of the country.

\- 3pm. Start winding down. Have a beer.

\- 5pm. Parter comes home from work and we go to the park with the dog. Lots
of dogs at this time and its great fun for all.

\- 7pm. Dinner.

\- 8pm. Bed.

\- 4am. Wake.

Does my social life suffer? Well i've found that its a case of diminishing
returns. I used to be the guy who partied until 3am. Now I party until 10pm.
And I've discovered I'm having just as much fun. It would seem socialising is
a case of diminishing returns for me. I also avoid the shattering hangover.

~~~
_delirium
I've tried this, but find waking up in the darkness hard to get used to. I
mean, I can set an alarm and get up, drink some coffee, and pretend I'm now
up, but it still feels like weird zombie-time until the sun starts rising to
mark it "really" being morning. Whereas when I stay up late the nighttime
doesn't feel like that. Could just be familiarity, but seems like the
sleep->wake transition happening during darkness could be an issue. Maybe it
could be artificially assisted if my apartment interior had more/brighter
lights.

~~~
niggler
It's much easier than you think. The hardest part isn't the lack of light but
getting past the instinct to go back to sleep.

This is a habit you can break regardless of your sleep time: when you first
notice you are awake, just roll off the bed and do 20 pushups.

~~~
lasome
I used to have an hour-long train commute to work each day, and I'd sleep as
late as possible while still leaving myself enough time to catch my train. So
at 5:40am my alarm would go off, and I _HAD_ to get up. There was no snooze.

The commute is long gone but the habit of rolling out of bed immediately never
broke. I'm grateful for it. I used to spend half an hour snoozing, groggily
working my way out of the bed to start my day. I didn't get a whole lot of
extra rest, just wasted half an hour not really sleeping, but not doing
anything else either.

------
networked
A few select previous stories on sleep:

– Good sleep, good learning, good life --
<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5244619>

– How Little Sleep Can You Get Away With? --
<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2548665>

– How to Naturally Reset Your Sleep Cycle In One Night --
<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=739213>

– Sleep Deficit: The Performance Killer --
<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3367789>

– Why Entrepreneurs Can't Sleep --
<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3017740>

– Small areas of the brain go to sleep when we're up too late --
<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2491603>

– The importance of sleep in a startup --
<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3556102>

– Poll: How much sleep do you get per night? --
<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3479410>

– The myth of the eight-hour sleep --
<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3620742>

Wikipedia articles I'd recommend reading:

–
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm_sleep_disorde...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm_sleep_disorder)

– [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-24-hour_sleep-
wake_disorde...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-24-hour_sleep-
wake_disorder)

------
AndrewKemendo
The author mentions it at the end but this schedule is really only good for
the asocial. I submit that unless you truly have a aversion to social
interaction, it will get lonely.

I know this because I used to work night shifts and pretty much had this
schedule. You end up losing the period of socialization which is typically
4-10PM, where people go to dance classes, have dinners with friends, go get
drinks etc... and things feel lonely.

~~~
javascripter9
I think it works for maker's who take a long term view of returns on social
investments. Sacrificing friends of a certain quality today in order to put in
the work it takes to make friends with the people one admires, but doesn't
currently know, and whom can raise their stock in life, so to speak, has a
higher relative return than being present with his college bar crowd. I'm not
suggesting friendship should be a business move only, but that one doesn't
miss out on all that much by forgoing the maintenance of superficial
connections in the present to focus on their goals. Of course not all college
age friendships are superficial, and some can last throughout life, but these
are the minority, whereas the majority are much more ephemeral.

~~~
lukehorvat
Hilarious.

------
logn
I tend to sleep from 5am - 10am and take a 3 hour nap during the day, say 1pm
- 4pm. It's a bit degenerate but I work from home and can do this.

The advantages are I fulfill all my night-owl hacking needs and have a good
social life. And I can make any morning meetings by adjusting my first sleep
to 4am - 8am.

Apparently before the invention of the light bulb, most people divided their
sleep into two sections. The details are sketchy but there's widespread
reference of "second sleep" throughout history. I think it was the sort of
thing they went to bed at 9pm - 1am and then 4am - 8am.

~~~
AlexDanger
I wasnt aware of this 'second sleep' phenomenon. Sort of a reverse siesta?

~~~
logn
It basically is the siesta model. See:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep>

------
n3rdy
It looks like you didn't get the memo.

Those of us who embrace this magical nocturnal world don't praise it to the
day walkers. It gives them the terrible idea that it may be good for them to
try. If this pattern were to continue, our reign over the darkness would
surely end.

Do be more careful in the future. Thanks.

~~~
InformalRelief
Night gathers, and now my watch begins

------
onemorepassword
There is a serious disconnect if you suggest that there is very little
distracting content being generated and at the same time note that your day
starts at the same time as your coworkers in the UK.

But then again the whole thing suggests total isolation from anything other
then work and study, with the alternative rhythm just being a way of making
that easier.

This is a story about someone socially isolating themselves, the 5pm bedtime
thing might just as well be "living on the north pole".

~~~
ngokevin
With school and two part-times, I had not much purely social time reserved
during weekdays, sleep schedule aside.

The experimental sleep schedule is temporary until I finish school. But given
the fickle nature of sleep schedules, this will not likely last that long
regardless. But for now, I don't mind it!

~~~
thoughtcriminal
I admire what you're doing, and the post was well written btw. Continue to
follow your own rules, most great people in history do. And if ever you feel
like you need to tweak your social life, you'll know what to do.

~~~
ngokevin
Thanks for the encouragement! And yes, it might need a tweak :)

------
mtkd
Quite coincidentally - I've just come back from the butchers, who shared with
me his opinion that 3am was the optimal time to wake up and 'get stuff done
before people start getting in the way'.

~~~
personlurking
When I have too much on my mind and I wake up around 3 or 4am (and don't go
back to bed), I realize it's awesome to have that extra time before the day
starts. However, when I've done jobs where I must get up at 5am, I almost need
to be forced out of bed.

I've got an uncle who, for over a decade, has woken up at 3am, though he
doesn't go to bed until 10pm. It makes me wonder if just doing it makes one
better at it since we're talking about something we've done our whole lives.
My personal sleep pattern (12-7/7:30) hasn't changed since the early 90s.

------
dfc
Its also worth noting that after college a 5pm bedtime is going to put a
serious damper on your sex life.

~~~
graue
That seems like a silly generalization. Surely it depends who your partner
happens to be and what schedule they follow.

~~~
dfc
To be honest my generalization has less to do with schedules/who your partner
is and more to do with the supply of partners. I think that (in the US at
least) in college sex is less dependent on one partner compared to later in
life.

 _I read your profile and appreciate the sentiment re: votes. I am not trying
to be crude. Within this context this is my best effort at a thoughtful
response._

~~~
graue
Y'know, maybe I'm off base, but my perception is that for people not in a
committed relationship, college sex was basically like this:

1\. Go to party

2\. Get wasted

3\. ????

4\. Wake up hungover: "What, I'm really in bed with this person? WTF, how did
that happen?"

Anyone disciplined enough to maintain an unconventional sleep schedule,
probably isn't doing _that_ to begin with. And doesn't it fall under the
general "lack of social interaction" complaint?

But I don't know if this is a particularly productive line of discussion. I'm
only here because there were no posts about Haskell on the front page. :)

~~~
dfc
My impression/experience was that there were no time or inebriation
requirements. But that was a little while ago now so things may be different.

------
aw3c2
That would throw me into deep depression from loneliness since my social
activities outside work are in the evenings (since that is when other people
do that kind of thing).

~~~
TheBoff
Yeah, whilst he mentions work and school, there's nowhere to just be social
with people in that schedule. What do you do if you want to go to the cinema
or the theatre, or just the pub?

------
t0
I've also been doing this for the past few months. Only difference is I have
to get 10-12 hours for some reason. So it turns out to be either 12pm-12am,
3pm-3am or 5pm-5am. All of which are great.

I think the greatest merit of doing this is not being tired when you start
your day. When you wake up at 8am and go to class or work at 9am, your brain
just hasn't had enough time to wake up. I've failed many exams for this
reason. Now when I take my exam, I've already been up 8 hours and I even get
all that extra time to study.

~~~
wuest
This is true! It also helps the work(/school?)day go by much quicker, since
the first half isn't dragging due to grogginess and the second half isn't
suffering from the poor mood the dragging first half generated.

------
dave1619
I would imagine one of the weaknesses of this kind of schedule is the
variations that occur when you have an evening function that you just need to
go to, ie., birthday party of your best friend. And what happens when you have
a few evening functions you need to go to in a week? I would imagine that
would mess up one's rhythm. Sure, you could try to get back to your schedule
with diligence and effort, but I can't imagine it's that simple. Over time,
that might become draining. But it seems like you get so much stuff done from
midnight to 8am, maybe it's worth skipping the evening functions altogether or
if you need to go just re-adjusting to your schedule (even being a bit groggy)
because of the huge productivity gains you're seeing.

One of the interesting things from the blog post was how it's easier to
concentrate when the Internet slows down. I find that 9am to 5pm on weekdays
there's just so much content being published everywhere, and so much of that
content is interesting, that I find myself easily distracted during the day.
I've had to hack my own system of focused goals, pomodoro work sessions, and
other homemade hacks to get the productivity I need during the day. So, I can
totally see how someone can get tons of stuff done during the middle of the
night while everyone else is sleeping.

Btw, Kevin - how long have you been doing this schedule?

~~~
ngokevin
I agree, this sleep schedule is not very sustainable due to can't-miss evening
functions. But it is working out very well for me for now because it is late
in my school quarter. I spend a lot of time studying and working, and I
haven't had any things come up during the evening. Since I'm in school, my
rhythm gets messed up easily regardless.

Another productivity hack, I use LeechBlock during the day so I limit my
Internet breaks. I find myself compulsively visiting distracting websites.
There's self-control, but why not delegate it to the browser.

I have only been doing it for a week and continue to keep it up for at least
the next week. I think I plan on tweaking it towards something slightly more
normal, like 8pm-4am.

~~~
antoko
You've only been doing it a week... going to bed at 5pm when it is sunset is
well and good in February. Come summer time trying to tell your body to sleep
when the Sun is high in the sky might be a big problem. Certainly not
impossible but it might not feel so great for you. I fell into a very natural
(seeming) sleep pattern from 8am - 3pm which worked for me at the time. That
was a lifetime ago though and it simply isn't practical for me now.

~~~
vidarh
Speaking as someone who grew up in the South-East of Norway, where there's
very short dark parts of the night during the summer, it is certainly _harder_
to go to bed when it's light outside, but it is still manageable. Heat was a
much bigger issue for me in terms of getting sleep. Dark blinds, and a strict
bedtime ritual to calm down and prepare for sleep helps. you get used to it.
Up North there are substantial parts (though sparsely populated) of Norway
where it doesn't get dark during the night in summer and people still manage.

------
wuest
At work I'm known for having a weird sleep schedule (usually 18:00-02:00,
though circumstance can push that out occasionally). I've similarly found that
my days tend to be more relaxing and more productive since adopting this
schedule. I suspect that the value of this schedule is inversely proportionate
to the number of those who adopt it.

------
shalmanese
My most productive period was when I was waking up at 8pm, grabbing dinner and
drinks with friends from 9pm to midnight (I would drink water), hacking at the
lab from 12:30am to 8:30am, run errands from 8:30 to 10 and then sleep from
10am to 8pm.

~~~
jthol
This worked pretty well for me in my final year of school when the only time
the lab was open for our project was midnight to 8am. Weird having an end of
the day beer at 10:30 in the morning though :)

------
tobeportable
I did this same thing for the exams of my last year only. Had I known before
....

Here's the pattern :

while exams{

    
    
      0. Study
    
      1. Go to the exam
    
      2. succeed
    
      3. Come back, get fresh a go to sleep
    
      [... idle ... forget everything ... reboot ...]
    
      4. Wake up, get fresh   & back to 0. for next exam
    

}

Here's some advantages :

\- when you wake up you actually have plenty of time till the exam

\- you don't have to calculate how much sleep you will get or when to squeeze
it

\- your going to arrive fresh at the exam and not fall asleep on your sheet-
keyboard

~~~
eertami
I switch to this pretty much every exam period, mostly because I hate doing
anything when I've only just woken up, nevermind take an exam.

The rest of the year however, there are far too many things to do between
5pm-1am that make this viable. Instead I flip it and go for the 5am-1pm which
I think works well as a University student.

------
jeggers5
I'm uncertain of why anybody would do this to their life.

You lay out some advantages:

1) The rest of the internet is "asleep", there's not much content being
generated and so you are less distracted.

2) You get the gym to yourself.

3) No alarm clock

Admittedly, all three are good things. But, I'm uncertain if it's a good trade
off. I mean, I'd go crazy if I did what you do on a daily basis. For one,
going to sleep at 5pm would completely cut me off from any after-work/school
social aspect of my life. It just seems silly to do that just for the ability
to make it easier for yourself to work at night. I for one, find it much
better to just not mess around on HN/Facebook all day and just do what I have
to do (use SelfControl). Just do it. My gym is very empty early, at about 8am,
infact thinging about it now, your sleep timetable doesn't help you have an
empty gym. Most people get up that early anyway for work.

I just don't get why you need to change your sleeping habits to something so
backward that cuts you off from so many of the social aspects of life that
aren't mingled in with work/school.

Not having to use an alarm clock, though, is good.

~~~
nwh
> The rest of the internet is "asleep", there's not much content being
> generated and so you are less distracted.

Thanks to the zones, that never happens.

~~~
Fargren
This happens because there are time zones that are significantly more active
than others on the parts of the internet one tends to use. Sure, there's
content being uploaded when it's 10:00 in Japan or China, but except for
what's coming from Australia (not really much), I'm unlikely to be browsing
any of that.

------
taylorbuley
For the very productive, I think there's a tendency to think oneself exempt
from the rules of sleep. But only for "a small group of people—perhaps just 1%
to 3% of the population" is sleep a waste of time according to researchers.

[http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870371250457624...](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703712504576242701752957910.html)

------
jmt7les
Everything here revolves around the sun, literally. If you're depriving
yourself of the natural energy you naturally attempt to get I can only imagine
you'll have to turn to artificial energy eventually (a lot of it). Just seems
too unnatural to me to fight what your body was made to do.

------
theologic
While many comments bring up the anti-social aspects, I think it interesting
to use the thread to think about one of the biggest, and often overlooked
personal productivity attributes: making sure that your body gets a good dose
of sleep every day.

Good sleep means better cognitive behavior, less accidents, lower bodyfat,
lower inflammation, and many other benefits.

Sleep has a long list of very positive effects, and I might suggest reading
Coren's "The Sleep Thieves" to get a full idea of this.

One of the central cores of getting a good night's sleep is "sleep hygiene,"
which includes having a regular schedule. In other words, get to a schedule
and stick to it. Also, exposure to light seems to keep the schedule synced.

As many have written, 5pm hardly seems to be reinforcing of the above points.

~~~
AlexDanger
I couldnt agree more.

Dont hesitate to see a doctor if you think your sleep is low quality _. There
are a number of non-obvious medical issues that can impact your sleep.

_ I'm not talking about getting a prescription for sleeping tablets.
Personally they make me feel like shit when I wake up.

------
biafra
At least in Berlin, you would have no problem on weekends to find a party
between 1am and 5pm. :-)

------
rexreed
I like this schedule as well. Benjamin Franklin is well-quoted as saying
"early to bed, early to rise, makes a man healthy, wealthy, and wise".

In particular, the 1am to 8am work cycle can be highly productive since email
and other distractions are generally quiet then.

~~~
qu4z-2
I believe the counter to that quote is "Early to rise and early to bed makes a
man healthy but socially dead."

------
jspiros
I experimented with this exact sleep schedule when I went from working
entirely remotely for 8 years to working in an office for a year and a half. I
found that physically going to an office would exhaust me anyway to the point
that I couldn't accomplish much after coming home, so this schedule was great
for optimizing the time where I'd be most productive anyway, and putting me to
sleep when I'd otherwise be useless anyway.

I'm introverted enough that the social interaction I had at the office was
sufficient for the day, so I wouldn't be going out afterwards anyway. I'm also
a night-owl and find myself much more productive at night.

------
joshualastdon
For a long time, I used to have a "night owl" schedule and I thought I was
very productive until I switched to 12am-5:30am sleep schedule. I sleep at
most 1-1:30am, but if I ever stay awake past 2:30am, I don't go to sleep
anynmore. I also take a 15 minute nap during the day at about 3pm, after which
if I would be very refreshed for the rest of the day.

I think the early-to-rise sleep pattern is very productive and best even for
some people that consider themselves night owls now. Most times, a lot of
people think they are night owls from their late night sleep schedule from
their teenage years. There are some exceptions, however.

------
f1codz
The best part i like about your schedule is resting immediately after a full
days work. This gap (of rest) between your work day and the time you aside for
yourself to do some parttime learning/work is very appealing.

------
umjames
I came up with the same idea a while ago, except I would fit dinner in either
after work/before bed or after waking up/before the day job. I never got to
try it out though, because when you live with others who are on a regular
sleep schedule, there will be plenty of conflicts.

I'm still itching to try this if/when I ever get my own place. It's basically
a normal day with the sleep and personal time portions swapped. It's easy to
come up with the idea since it's the only flexibility possible when your work
time is non-adjustable.

------
yoos
I've noticed the same kind of distraction-free productivity in the wee hours
and thought about starting my day at midnight, but usually I have a hard time
taking my hands off whatever task is on hand. Consequently, I am usually a
night owl who wakes up nearly at noon (I'm a student, as well), and when I
actually need to be somewhere in the morning, I power through with a few bags
of black tea.

I admit the 5pm bedtime schedule is a lot healthier and syncs with the 9-to-5
work schedule nicely, though.

------
mcartyem
What the author does is something people used to do in the past.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep>

[http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/feb/24/sleep-
tw...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/feb/24/sleep-twice-a-
night-anxiety)

------
fxthea
I've done this once and I think it's a pretty good idea especially if you work
a 9 to 5 and are moonlighting. The most productive hours of the day (the hours
that you have the most energy because you just woke up) are yours and then the
hours that you are more tired are for your 9 to 5.

------
mistermcgruff
Having three young boys, all this discussion is rendered meaningless. I wake
when they jump on my face.

------
javascripter9
This was my schedule too, but it kept shifting 1 hour forward until it circled
back to a normal 10pm-6am schedule, though my partner did appreciate not
having to listen to my laptop's abnormally loud mouse button's clicking sound
all night.

------
jrockway
I wish I could work a 7 hour day and magically be in my bed 0 seconds after it
ended.

------
dfc
Dec-Feb is the only time that the sun sets at 5pm. I think this schedule would
be next to impossible for me Mar-Nov when it is still light out well past 5pm.
The lack of social interaction would make it terroibly hard Dec-Feb.

~~~
ngokevin
I agree, it would become difficult to maintain this schedule as days become
longer, and the lack of social interaction is a glaring flaw.

Maybe it'd be better for someone that lived in Alaska.

------
hdra
isn't it lonely? i tried similar schedule, even though not intentionally few
years ago, and i find it hard to find time to catch up with friends,

~~~
ngokevin
Yes, it can be. But with school and work, I have the same amount of social
time as I did before. It is not too bad as much of my social network are
classmates and coworkers.

I have been doing it for a week so far, but I expect on dropping it once I
graduate and once time frees up.

~~~
cevaris
I would have to agree. Most of my social activities are with my classmates and
coworkers, all between 10am-5pm. I code better after a good nights rest.
Totally going to give this a shot.

------
dysoco
Sounds interesting, I love the night: however my problem is that I have school
from 7am to 5pm , which is kind of the full day for me.

------
Wump
This sounds isolating, and you'll lose a few hours of sunlight in
spring/summer months.

To quote Seinfeld: Serenity now, insanity later.

------
hakaaaaak
Sleeping from 5-midnight is taking the "early to bed, early to rise" thing a
little too seriously. Napoleon woke at 4am each morning to get the jump on
everyone else, but that didn't help him in the end.

I think that the most natural thing is to (1) sleep when it gets dark and wake
when it's light, and (2) not live to close to the parts of the world where
that doesn't work because of the length of days and nights.

------
namuol
This is great if you're happy to forego all social activity outside
professional/academic endeavors...

------
jh3
Why would you want to have this kind of schedule while you're in school?

------
rco8786
This is cool as long as you have no friends or social calendar?

------
philco
Upvoted for the title. Reading the post now.

------
bliker
when do you eat dinner?

~~~
ngokevin
Probably in the afternoon.

