
If Amazon is the future of work, then be afraid - antitrust
http://pro.gigaom.com/blog/if-amazon-is-the-future-of-work/
======
ef4
Amazon's warehouses aren't the future of work. They're its history.

That kind of zero-skilled, follow-the-instructions work is going fully
robotic, much more quickly than people realize. Amazon themselves are
investing heavily in robotics.

~~~
DamnYuppie
The question then becomes what happens to all of those unskilled and now
unneeded workers?

~~~
unabridged
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income)

~~~
protomyth
Do you see a Guaranteed minimum income as a viable alternative? Do you
consider basic income and guaranteed minimum income the same thing?

~~~
unabridged
I think guaranteed minimum income creates worse incentives, everyone making
under the limit would be persuaded to work less or work under the table. With
basic income the incentive to make more still exists at all levels of income.

~~~
protomyth
I can see that. I was thinking that some hybrid would be interesting since I
am just not sure a basic income would actually be affordable. Something like
everyone is guaranteed X and anyone working for Y subtracts Y/F from X where F
is some factor (2 or 3 maybe). I get the feeling the "When the people find
they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic."[1]
might manifest. I do wonder[2] if something radical like takers of basic
income cannot vote or serve jury duty might push people to work.

1) Benjamin Franklin

2) not advocating - this part violates some of my basic beliefs

------
DannoHung
Man, fuck this world.

Go into a STEM job? Well, maybe you'll get hired, maybe you won't, you have to
hope that you picked an area that was hot 4 years ahead of time and that the
people managing recruitment don't have their heads up their asses. Also you
need to hope that any company isn't already in the process of globalizing or
outsourcing said STEM jobs because they can do _those_ cheaper elsewhere (see
IBM story yesterday).

And if you didn't go into STEM, well, fuck you because STEM is the only
college that's any good by 95% of all accounts.

And if you didn't go into college, then fuck you because you're going to do
back-breaking labor with no guarantee of financial security.

Something's gotta change or things are going to be grim. They're already
getting grim.

~~~
eshvk
Things have always been grim. The crows are just coming home to roost in
America. Why do you think so many Indians and Chinese people are doctors or
engineers? Fear. It is not about competence. It is not about passion. It is
the fear that drives them. Because life is hard there without a safety net. A
life where health care has to be paid for out of pocket. A life where your
daughter's marriage requires piles of money.

“The world is what it is; men who are nothing, who allow themselves to become
nothing, have no place in it”

What is the solution? I don't know. The future is going to belong to people
who refuse to let themselves be nothing. It is not going to be about STEM
jobs, math or science or art. The future is something you are going to have to
find. Or become irrelevant. Scary, but sometimes that fear is useful.

~~~
throwaway1979
Hold on ...

Life in India and China for the middle class isn't as bad as your comment
makes it out to be (perhaps unintentionally). Human beings have an amazing
ability to adapt. Health care and other costs in many developing countries
aren't totally insane. The big difference is hope for progress - the middle
class is growing in many developing countries. Also, people have a support
network that would seem surprising to a westerner. E.g. the joint family
system.

------
cm2012
I'm going to copy and paste from something I wrote in another thread.

From my experience with warehouses/fulfillment centers, all the other options
are same or worse than Amazon with regards to worker treatment. Besides, on
Amazon plenty of merchants do their own fulfillment, and those that do fulfill
with Amazon are going to fulfill with Amazon on eBay or Rakuten or their own
website anyway. To do so morally you'll have to look into the fulfillment
details of any individual company you do business with.

Honestly, it just sucks to be an unskilled worker in today's society, its not
something new to Amazon.

~~~
metricman
I hear this often if I try to discuss Amazon.com work conditions, but I don't
like the excuse. Costco is the largest company that comes to mind which makes
much stronger claims and (if you believe them) treats employees, even
'unskilled' employees, better.

Here are some Glassdoor reviews for Costco Wholesale:

[http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Costco-Wholesale-
Reviews-E2...](http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Costco-Wholesale-
Reviews-E2590.htm)

I'm sure this isn't a good comparison. But Costco is doing fine and has a
large market cap (52B).

This isn't new to Amazon.com, but Amazon.com is exemplary in treating
employees in high-demand (i.e. easily replaceable) positions poorly. We should
talk about their warehouses because their policies alone could nudge the
industry to being more compassionate.

Bezos repeats that "long-term" "willing to be misunderstood" stuff a lot, but
how many companies have tried really treating replaceable workers well? Maybe
the current conditions inhibit workers from fulfilling their potential and
making larger impacts than carrying boxes.

------
DamnYuppie
For the life of me I can't fathom how moving the bulk of our workforce to
temporary employees benefits us as a nation in the long run. Is there anyone
here who an provide any metric to support this as a good thing?

I do see where some wish to blame the consumer for this trend which is a bit
surprising to me. That idea seems paradoxical in that the majority of people
do not have good paying would, by necessity, want things to cost less. Yet if
you propagate this throughout ecosystem you end up in a viscous cycle where
companies, in order to meet lower price points, squeeze their employees which
only propagates the cycle.

Most of us on this site are not the type of unskilled laborers who are
currently impacted by this. Yet such trends have a way of working their way up
the the food chain so to speak. Companies will trumpet "think of the consumer"
as a way to depress or wages.

~~~
gaius
It is the consumer tho'. I can't count the number of people I know who are
very vocal about workers rights, human rights, living wage etc but happily
wear clothes and carry personal electronics made in sweatshops. Ironically,
it's the rabid capitalist types who are willing to pay for locally produced
items made by skilled workers.

~~~
icebraining
Stuff made in sweatshops pays a wage to extremely poor workers. Stuff made
locally pays a wage to workers in a developed country with reasonable safety
net protections. Why would you expect the human rights defender to privilege
the comparatively wealthier worker over the poorer one?

------
DanielBMarkham
This has been going on in warehousing and Distribution Centers for a long time
-- over a decade. Same goes for many call centers.

I don't like the nature of the work, but I look at it like this: if you want
robots to take dreary work from people, then that work needs to be quantified
and structured. These kinds of things are the last step before total
automation.

So in a way, the news is even worse than crappy jobs. These jobs are leaving.
This is just the last vestiges of them. What will replace them? Beats me. I
think the question itself is wrong, that is, as things change and become more
efficient, there are new scarcities having nothing to do with food or shelter
that people pay for. If you could predict the future of these scarcities you'd
be rich beyond belief. So while it sounds like a good question, "Where do all
these people go?", it's not one that's answerable in this case -- nor was it
ever answerable.

One thing I know: this issue has nothing to do with Amazon. They're just being
used as a prop here.

~~~
brandonbica
The type of work that is being described is very typical of best of breed
warehouse management systems. I agree that Amazon is a prop in this story as
there a tons of other large scale companies that have the same types of
systems. Maybe they don't all use temp workers, but labor management systems
are not rare.

------
Tichy
They (media, leftist groups) tried to create a scandal about this in Germany
and succeeded to some extent. I found it kind of amusing that the mere
description of people having to do actual work already seems to be so shocking
to middle class people. If you don't work with your brain, you work with your
body... I don't think working a farm or maybe a slaughterhouse or whatever
other manual labor jobs there are are much better than an Amazon warehouse. I
saw a documentary about garbage men recently and apparently they have to be
fit like Marathon runners. Some jobs simply are hard.

Now I am glad I don't have to do that kind of job, but people should question
what they are really asking for. They should then really support basic income,
and also be prepared to pay a lot more for stuff. In fact, I wish instead of
complaining people would just cough up more money. I wonder how big the
engagement would then still be.

Or, you know, go full communism and have everybody take turns at doing the
hard manual labor, no matter what education they have. In Christmass time,
there would be a random selection of people who would be sent to Santa's
warehouse (I mean Amazon) to work.

~~~
tjic
> I found it kind of amusing that the mere description of people having to do
> actual work already seems to be so shocking to middle class people.

Indeed. "They don't have air conditioning!"

Oh...so the Amazon warehouse workers are like every other warehouse worker,
factory worker, agricultural worker, miner, oil drilling hand...

------
nbuggia
I spend a lot of time thinking about this too - because computer/ robotic
automation is not just going to take warehouse jobs, it will eventually come
for all of our jobs.

But this doesn't have to be a bad thing, if you think about it from a
community perspective, how great would it be if all our basic needs were
automated and low cost? Theoretically, this should free people up to pursue
other interests, like science, art, sports, religion -- kind of like the
premise Star Trek TNG.

Unfortunately, this isn't the reality today. If things keep going like they
are, then this automation will enable a small oligarchy even greater wealth
and power, and leverage over the civilization. I don't mean this to be
alarmist, this is a really logical progression, and 'they way things are' has
created some pretty amazing achievements for us to-date. I think this will be
the next big social evolution and I can't wait to see how it unfolds.

~~~
Florin_Andrei
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income)

------
eksith
Amazon: Building better robots with human flesh.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Amazon suddenly announces a secret R&D
project involving a floor of robots pretty soon. In fact, the type of
monotonous line-following, retrieval and packing fits well within the line of
past factory workers who've been all but replaced with robots.

I'd even cheer them on if they did that instead of dehumanizing those workers.

~~~
jwoah12
_I 'd even cheer them on if they did that instead of dehumanizing those
workers._

And I'm sure those workers would be grateful for your cheering when they're
standing in the unemployment line.

~~~
eksith
Once upon a time, I've stood in both a factory floor and in the unemployment
line.

At one of them, I still felt like a human being. Guess which.

------
Houshalter
This reminds me a lot of the story Manna. In the story, robotics and machine
vision is still behind human workers, however computers are able to perfectly
optimize every other detail, and so tell human workers what to do step by step
through an earpiece.

I love the idea actually, but I think most people would find it unsettling.
But why not have perfectly optimized work routines and get the same amount of
stuff done in half the time? Unfortunately I doubt the benefits would go to
the workers and they'd still have to work the same amount of time, but that's
true for all increases in efficiency.

~~~
msluyter
ObReference:
[http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm](http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm)

------
aetherson
> “The feedback we’re getting is it’s like being in a slave camp,” said Brian
> Garner, the dapper chairman of the Lea Hall Miners Welfare Centre and Social
> Club, still a popular drinking spot.

Just like a slave camp. You know, besides the fact that you get paid, can own
property, have the full rights of citizens, can quit at any time, and go home
at the end of the day.

> There is much to admire in Amazon’s rise, but in some dark corners of that
> sprawling empire the top line numbers and razor-thin earnings are being
> boosted by a dystopian model of neofeudalism that is jarringly out of step
> with the company’s shiny, ‘leaning into the future’ brand.

A "dystopian model of neofeudalism"? For reals, guys?

I have complained about jobs that were doubtless better in every way than
warehouse jobs at Amazon, and I'm sure that there are legitimate complaints,
but it's hard to take this article seriously. The axe to grind is so
prominently on display that it's difficult to know what part of the story can
be read as an objective description of the facts.

~~~
gdulli
> Just like a slave camp. You know, besides the fact that you get paid...

Each successive future we strive for should have standards higher than the
previous. We can do better than putting literal slave labor behind us. We
should achieve a standard where the metaphor doesn't even apply.

------
jlund
It sounds like they treat people the same way all of us treat EC2 instances.

~~~
Florin_Andrei
> _It sounds like they treat people the same way all of us treat EC2
> instances._

Well, the Borg Collective has perfected that technique, actually. But yeah.

------
tenpoundhammer
This sounds bizarrely similar to a portion of the Ken Burns documentary about
the dust bowl. Basically, towards the end of the great depression tons of
people migrated to California looking for work. Upon arriving they found
little employment and those that did find work were doing hard labour,farms
along with employment agencies were working together to drive down the cost
human labour even further.

This created an enormous class of extremely poor that could be let go at any
moment for any reason. While farms and employment agencies raked in profits.

Just because a company is acting within the law doesn't mean they are ethical
or moral.

Maybe robots are better than human subjugation, maybe this is the beginning of
new type of economy.

------
tomorgan
I think it's just capitalism, and economics.

Consumers are constantly pushing down the prices on everything, expecting more
and more for less and less. Faced with this reality, companies have to
streamline and become more effective in order to succeed and profit. This is
what Amazon are doing.

We moan about having to pay for baggage, choosing seats, food and even using
the bathroom on flights now - but this is solely because of our want to push
down the headline price of flights. The price has been reduced...but the cost
is still there.

AFAIK, Amazon aren't doing any illegal, they're just working very efficiently.

~~~
toomuchtodo
And the only solution is regulation. Minimum wage too low? Raise it.

If Amazon wants to be efficient, it can be on the back of its margins, not at
the expense of humans.

EDIT: Ran into this on reddit, thought it was very timely:

"Sorry, It's Not A 'Law Of Capitalism' That You Pay Your Employees As Little
As Possible"

[http://www.businessinsider.com/companies-need-to-pay-
people-...](http://www.businessinsider.com/companies-need-to-pay-people-
more-2013-8)

~~~
icebraining
Or, they'll just accelerate the automation plans they're already pursuing, and
simply fire people. What good is an higher wage, if you're unable to get a
job?

~~~
toomuchtodo
What good is automation if your customers don't have any money?

------
shabble
I'm reminded of the first half of the fictional short(ish) story "Manna"[1] by
Marshall Brain.

[1] [http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm](http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm)

------
sailfast
It is asserted multiple times in the article, but is there any evidence that
Amazon uses temp workers at all their facilities or just in this one UK
example? I haven't seen any accounts of heavy use in US warehouses, but they
could be out there.

~~~
rndmize
There's been a whole lot of articles about heavy use of temps in US
warehouses. I think I recall one from a few months ago which talked about how
the average temp in some CA warehouses was around 90 degrees most of the day
and was staffed almost entirely by temp workers.

Edit: found it.

> Amazon uses temporary employees in its Breinigsville warehouse, works them
> to the point of heat exhaustion--no, really, it parks ambulances outside--
> and then lets them go after they've failed to perform.

[http://www.theatlanticwire.com/technology/2011/09/what-it-
ta...](http://www.theatlanticwire.com/technology/2011/09/what-it-takes-ship-
amazon-purchases-you-overnight/42704/)

And it seems there's an update -
[http://www.theatlanticwire.com/technology/2012/06/amazons-
wa...](http://www.theatlanticwire.com/technology/2012/06/amazons-warehouses-
sound-cooler-more-humane-these-days/53157/)

------
fireflash38
It's perfectly reminiscent of factory work. Drudgery, efficient drudgery.

------
san86
The contracting culture is indeed awful. It gives companies a way to fire
workers without making the headlines. Also let's them not dirty their hands
with benifits. But it's unfair to blame Amazon alone. Many organizations do
this, including the US Federal Government. The DC metro area is filled with
offices where the "employees" walk in and the "contractors" badge in. The tech
contractors still make handsome cash, but the job scurity is not where it
should be

------
njharman
If the future of work is work I'm extremely depressed / afraid. We are beyond
the point of continued human labor to support ever increasing consumption.
Buckminster Fuller showed the way
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckminster_Fuller](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckminster_Fuller)

------
Someone
Same story, in the US, IMO told better:
[http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/mac-
mcclelland-f...](http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/mac-mcclelland-
free-online-shipping-warehouses-labor)

------
forgotAgain
So how long after robot warehouse workers do you think we'll have robots
enforcing laws? I'm getting a picture of Soylent Green but with robots instead
of humans controlling the crowds.

~~~
throwaway1979
Doesn't Elysium come out this Friday?

