
Long Life Vehicle - keeganjw
https://postalmuseum.si.edu/collections/object-spotlight/llv.html
======
adanto6840
My father was a postal delivery worker for some 35+ years (with a law degree,
LOL) and I distinctly recall him loving his "LLV". He maybe took it a bit too
seriously, but I also recall him occasionally getting "new" test vehicles and
hating them compared to his trusty LLV (and it makes me chuckle to recall him
often saying 'LLV' out loud & quite proudly; we just thought he was geeky,
even if technically accurate).

He absolutely loved these vehicles though. The only consistent complaint he
had was their winter performance -- they would get stuck extremely easily, and
my recollection was that he'd have to be "pulled out" 1-3 times during most
winters.

We were in the midwest, so typically somewhat moderate winters (perhaps a bit
less so 20-30 years ago now), but just a bit of snow or ice and they could get
hung up pretty easily. I recall the wheels being tiny, and the tires tending
towards the bald side, so maybe was preventable but nonetheless they would
quite quickly send someone to pull LLVs out any time they got hung up!

Edit -- They also have an incredibly distinct 'whir' sound when in reverse;
it's truly unmistakable and 20+ years later I can still identify one by that
sound. My father's route included our neighborhood so he'd have a "cookie
break" when he dropped our mail off & take his lunch at home, too; the unique
reverse sound was an instant giveaway that the LLV was backing into the
driveway. Good memories. :)

~~~
pm90
Why did your father become a postal delivery worker if he had a law degree?
Its a rather personal question so please don't feel like you have to answer,
but it seems like a non-traditional career path.

~~~
adanto6840
It's a good question, and one that I probably asked him on many multiple
occasions. His answer was always multi-pronged, but the main points were
approximately (in order of importance, as I perceived it):

1) Law = Higher stress career.

2) Office vs Outdoors; he loved being outdoors every day, especially loved
talking to people -- most everyone on his route knew him by name and he
strongly believed in [perhaps incorrectly, as things have changed
dramatically] in mail carriers being very 'customer/service oriented'. He
loved talking to people, he'd bring mail up to elder-aged peoples homes every
day and talk to them for a few minutes, etc. Perhaps a bit Mayberry-esque,
even. ;)

3) Moral reasons; a general dislike of bureaucracy (though plenty of that at
USPS, and more towards end of his career, which we heard about over dinner
~nightly!); generally a preference for meritocracy (his 'sorting speed' was N
times faster than the 'baseline', he would tell us); an extreme disdain for
"schmoozing" for lack of a better term.

He never even took the bar exam, which actually surprises me a bit even today.
As a young teenager I found it borderline insane, selfishly of course -- I can
remember thinking "we'd be in the nicer neighborhood if Dad would just go be a
lawyer!", and I remember wondering if my grandfather was upset by it but I was
a bit surprised to not really get the impression that it was an issue.

He also had owned & sold a bar in his 30s, had the only home we lived in my
entire life paid off in his ~50s, the USPS insurance & pension plans were
great, and we lived quite frugally -- so he was comfortable, he carried our
own route so he was home 2x each day, the rotating schedule was nice to get
Saturdays off occasionally, and he was off work by ~3-4PM every day (except
near holiday times when they'd have 20ft of mail and tons of parcels). I
actually believe he initially began carrying mail just as a summer job while
in college, and then probably kept at it simply because it was fulfilling for
him.

He retired a bit early, with >2 years of PTO & Sick Leave time saved up;
proceeded to get hip replacement surgery almost immediately -- likely somewhat
attributable to walking up/down ~100 flights of stairs each for a nearby
apartment complex on his route.

Unfortunately he passed away just 6 weeks after retiring. The funeral
procession had ~50 (ish) LLVs in it, and I think he'd have liked it. It made
me smile, on what was an otherwise cold day both literally & figuratively
speaking. :)

I miss his advice tremendously, he was a very smart person and I often reflect
on his decision to become a mailman, despite having a law degree. I have but a
[honors!] GED, though more philosophically sometimes I wonder if more succinct
& 'adventurous' job -- and a more frugal lifestyle -- might be more
fulfilling. I respected his decision though, and as I've aged I definitely
feel that I better understand it, as well.

~~~
t0mbstone
Passing away only six weeks after retiring... man...

~~~
dsfyu404ed
When your old a decrease in physical activity can be very bad for your overall
health.

Many people live into old age being very active for their age, suffer some
minor injury that leaves them bedridden simply because of age then their
health declines and they die shortly thereafter. Ask anyone who works in a
nursing home and they'll have plenty of stories of 90yr old ladies who were
walking a mile a day until they fell and then wound up in the nursing home and
died there.

Sounds like the person you're replying to's father got hip surgery right after
retiring. I wouldn'd be surprised if the recovery was what killed him.

~~~
adanto6840
A heart attack ~10 years prior to death, had otherwise been in relatively good
health though a little bit overweight.

I agree though and think you're generally correct; his route required a decent
bit of walking/stairs and probably kept him in much better shape.

He became ill about 6wk post-op and passed the night before Valentines Day; an
ice storm had just come through and the power was out at his house. Was quite
sudden & unexpected, he had been doing well, walking & I'd been taking him to
some of his follow-ups. He'd even left me a message on my "voicemail"
(answering machine, hah) a few hours prior to passing -- jokingly chastising
me for calling him the night before in the middle of 'the' IU college
basketball game ("How dare you call me in the middle of...!" hah). Sadly, I've
lost the recording since then. =)

An autopsy later revealed, from memory, something like 80-90% calcification of
vessels within his heart. Is almost 15 years ago now, and probably only really
come to grips with his passing in the last 5 years or so -- I wouldn't wish
the experience on anyone, and definitely not something you want to go through
as a young 'adult'.

------
nimbius
as an automotive mechanic by trade, these little suckers have always had a
place in my heart. Bless the fleet teams that keep them running! the LLV is
powered by one of these:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Duke_engine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Duke_engine)

technically its a pontiac engine, but its powered a ton of stuff including the
92 Chevy Lumina. parts for this engine are almost free, and you wont find a
cheaper fleet vehicle other than maybe Crown Victoria.

Mileage...people are complaining about 10mpg but forget to mention this is a
V4 and geared at the mission to haul 1 ton of cargo. coming from the shop
floor of our diesel engine repair building, 10mpg for a 4 cylinder iron block
mail truck is _good._ freight trucks are often lucky to see 6.

Your lumina engine however is geared much more respectably and will see 18-22
city/highway.

~~~
bluedino
>> V4 and geared at the mission to haul 1 ton of cargo

I’m sure you made an honest mistake, but a V4 is very rare - the Duke was an
inline-4.

I had one in a 1984 Fiero, and even in a small car like that it was lacking in
power. Not that it didn’t have bigger problems, like _catching the damn car on
fire_ , which they recalled them for.

Somehow that engine ended up in the even larger Firebird/Camaro...

------
WalterBright
If you're willing to do the maintenance, vehicles can last forever. Most cars
will last a very long time if you keep up with the lubrication maintenance.

But the mail trucks are perfect candidates for replacement with electrics.

~~~
jchw
Question from somebody who does not know jack about automobiles: would
electric vehicles last longer? Tesla was boasting its powertrain's longevity
and it got me wondering if that was normally a limiting factor to a vehicle's
lifespan and whether electric vehicles were better off. I mean, I'm guessing
you've gotta replace the battery a fair few times, but are they as promising
as they sound for longevity?

~~~
ip26
Honestly from my perspective as an ex-gearhead, older cars die from engine
failure but newer cars just tend to wear out (assuming maintenance). The whole
suspension starts to go (shocks, springs, ball joints, rubber bushings
everywhere) and body welds, door joints, etc start to crack and sag. All of
this is fixable, but at too high a cost. Thus electric cars won't really help
this, to my eyes.

Although, it's very possibly a legacy of planned obsolescence (the good cost-
saving kind) where the engine would last 200k so the rest of the car was only
made to last 200k as well. Perhaps as engines start to last far longer, the
rest of the car will be built to match.

~~~
Analemma_
> Although, it's very possibly a legacy of planned obsolescence (the good
> cost-saving kind) where the engine would last 200k so the rest of the car
> was only made to last 200k as well.

I think this is the answer. If a critical component of the car only lasts X
miles, then building any other piece to last more than X miles is pure waste.
As counterintuitive (and annoying) as it might seem, having all the parts of
the car fail around the same time actually indicates that it was engineered
perfectly.

~~~
ghaff
A very fun poem on the theme by Oliver Wendell Holmes (the father of the famed
American jurist):
[http://holyjoe.org/poetry/holmes1.htm](http://holyjoe.org/poetry/holmes1.htm)

------
kevin_thibedeau
> the FFV is a more fuel efficient vehicle, operating on a combination of
> unleaded gas and ethanol

Gasahol is not "more fuel efficient". It is a corn lobby subsidy that delivers
less MPG than straight gas due to the lower energy density.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
I agree, it's misleading marketing speak lobbyist crap

That said on a multi year timescale ethanol is far more efficient in terms of
carbon output per joule since much of the carbon released was captured when
the corn was grown so the only net carbon output is from the fossil fuel
portion of the fuel. It's similiar to the argument for why heating with wood
is better for the environment in the long term.

------
costcopizza
With the amount of stop and go, these things are begging for at _least_ a
hybrid power train. I’ve heard they’re very uncomfortable inside during summer
temps.

Also, long live the Iron Duke!

------
reaperducer
Those little trucklings are durable as heck. A few months ago I saw one
bounding across the desert scrubland between two remote ranches knocking
tumbleweeds out of its way like it was channeling a monster truck.

Amusing a heck to me. Probably not to anyone on the receiving end of a package
marked "Fragile."

~~~
newnewpdro
Your description reminds me of our FedEx guy here on dirt/sand roads near
Joshua Tree National Park.

He drives one of the smaller box trucks, from the sound of it I assume it's a
gas V8. It's always towards the end of the day and he's clearly in a hurry to
finish his final deliveries in an empty truck and it's like seeing a FedEx
truck compete in a rally race. I can hear him coming a mile away with the taps
wide open, and the thing is fishtailing and bouncing all over the place
blasting across the desert at 80+ MPH.

None of the locals I've seen, not even the guys on ATVs, sustain the FedEx
guy's pace.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
>None of the locals I've seen, not even the guys on ATVs, sustain the FedEx
guy's pace.

Fedex driver probably doesn't own the truck.

~~~
reaperducer
_Not the 18yo who launches his Ranger over the train tracks berm._

Do NOT do this! Also, if you try to crash through a snowbank in a Ranger. You
do not get a majestic slow-motion explosion of beautiful snow like in the TV
commercials. You get a missing bumper that you have to dig out from under your
now-stuck Ranger.

Yes, I speak from experience on both.

~~~
jacquesm
Employee of mine did this to my Jeep Grand Cherokee while I lived in Canada.
Of course not only did he not get the majestic slow-motion explosion of
beautiful snow, he got the concrete barrier buried in snowbank for free. That
was an expensive joy ride in the parking lot, years later I would still find
damage related to that accident (Dana 44 cracked right down the middle...).
Fortunately him and his gf were ok.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
In the employees defense it was a POS aluminum D44...

~~~
jacquesm
Haha :) Happy New Year!

------
aasasd
I've recently learned that Russian LiAZ 677 aka "cattle truck," which I rode
almost daily through most of the 2000s, is already considered "retro"―because
it was in production since '63 till '94.

It's quite jarring to see what was recently your daily ride, in a procession
together with buses from the 50s.

~~~
varjag
To be fair when I rode LiAZ in 1980s they were already considered long in the
tooth.

------
stevenwoo
One thing that is not mentioned is the actual mileage of the vehicles in use
is only 10 miles per gallon. Also rural carriers seem to be mostly now to be
private vehicles sometimes with the magnetic sticker on the side indicating a
postal service vehicle.

~~~
refurb
The mileage probably has more to do with the use than the design, no?

Starting a vehicle, driving it 30 ft to the next mailbox, the repeating
hundreds of times a day probably kills mileage for any vehicle.

~~~
r00fus
Unless that vehicle is a hybrid. Hybrids’ mileage goes way up for start/stop
unless it requires a complete cool down.

No reason today the fleet shouldn’t be mainly hybrid or EV.

------
noonespecial
They're all probably little Ships of Theseus by now.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus)

------
mannykannot
Grumman became informally known as the Grumman Iron Works for its rugged
airplanes.

~~~
reaperducer
I find that interesting because every time I hear "Grumman" I think of the big
brouhaha in the 1980's in New York City. The MTA ordered dozens? hundreds? of
new "flexible buses" from Grumman and within months they all cracked down the
middle. There was a transit shortage while the buses were sent out to Long
Island to be repaired.

It was a very long time ago, and Google fails me right now, so I'm not sure
what the exact problem was, or what exactly a "flexible bus" meant. The only
thing I can think of is that was the term of the day for articulated bus.

~~~
johnmaguire2013
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flxible_Metro](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flxible_Metro)

~~~
reaperducer
Thanks for that. Here's the relevant paragraph:

 _The Metropolitan Transportation Authority (MTA), in whose buses where the
first cracked A-frame problem was noticed in early December 1980 at their
Ulmer Park Depot, yanked its NYC Transit Authority fleet for the first time in
1980 (a separate batch for MSBA was built with the problem rectified the next
year) and sued Grumman. This lawsuit would result in a settlement to fix all
870 buses built until that time (2,656 examples in all), along with an early
termination of the build contract where the final 200 buses of the order were
transferred to General Motors._

------
detaro
Other examples:

While I couldn't find a source quickly, I'd guess the typical brown UPS truck
is a custom design, as are their newer, electric(?) variants?

German Post/DHL couldn't get the car industry to make them an affordable
electric delivery vehicle, so they bought an electric vehicle startup out of
RWTH Aachen and made their own (now also starting to sell these to others,
although I think they're teaming up with Ford to produce more of them)

~~~
indemnity
NZ Post use these things (Paxster), and I always laugh my ass off when they’re
scooting past.

[https://www.nzpost.co.nz/about-us/sustainability/electric-
ve...](https://www.nzpost.co.nz/about-us/sustainability/electric-vehicles-
powering-deliveries)

~~~
dingaling
I really don't like the idea of a 200kg powered vehicle on the pavements. Have
there been pedestrian objections?

In the UK postmen have a large 'pram' that they push on the pavements and
which are often found bicycle-chained to lamps whilst the postie visits a cul
de sac.

~~~
Symbiote
I think those "prams" have a battery assist, although they're presumably
limited to walking pace.

In Copenhagen, the postmen ride electric cargo bicycles [1], but mostly on the
cycle paths. As with most bicycles, they just lock the rear wheel to the
frame[2] if it's left for a while.

[1] [https://www.dreamstime.com/editorial-photo-postnord-
copenhag...](https://www.dreamstime.com/editorial-photo-postnord-copenhagen-
denmark-nd-november-mail-man-delivery-bike-photo-francis-joseph-dean-
deanpictures-image79872961)

[2] [https://bicycles.stackexchange.com/questions/54206/how-to-
lo...](https://bicycles.stackexchange.com/questions/54206/how-to-lock-up-a-
bike-with-a-rear-wheel-lock)

------
known
1966 Volvo P1800 belonging to Irv Gordon of Long Island, NY. Gordon claimed
the Guinness World Record back in 2014 when he’d posted 3.04 million miles.

[https://www.cheatsheet.com/automobiles/going-the-
distance-7-...](https://www.cheatsheet.com/automobiles/going-the-
distance-7-cars-that-have-gone-1m-miles.html/)

------
cat199
"Until the 1980s, when postal officials looked to buy new vehicles for the
service, they combed through existing models for one that best fit their
needs."

Bit too young to have a clear memory, but I thought they were usually jeeps?

Or maybe this was because there were alot of surplus jeeps in those days since
the jeep was still heavily used in the military?

~~~
zrail
Not surplus Jeep stock as much as surplus capacity for building more Jeeps.
IIRC most of the USPS Jeeps were right hand drive.

~~~
LyndsySimon
Yep. Mail Jeeps (DJs) are somewhat collectible these days.

------
lb1lf
I was puzzled for an instant as to why on earth would they be RHD, until I
realised that this enables the driver to deliver mail without having to get
out in the street and walk around the vehicle, thus being both safer and more
efficient.

------
jtokoph
Interesting video with a hypothetical redesign of the trucks:
[https://youtu.be/6oDVsf29tyk](https://youtu.be/6oDVsf29tyk)

~~~
rhn_mk1
It's interesting how they list problems with gas mileage and fire safety in
the previous model, and they conclude that a redesign is needed to correct the
flaws, and then proceed to start off with adding features like replaceable
cargo area, additional doors and airbags.

I stopped watching when they recommended integrating tablets as something that
should increase longevity.

------
iscrewyou
I see one of these everyday during my lunch but I never connected the dots
that these were likely special made and are likely very old.

I will look at it differently during my lunch today.

------
dsfyu404ed
It's kind of hilarious to see a bunch of upscale tech workers singing the
praise of the LLV when they would otherwise deride the vehicle it's built on.

If you went on /r/cars and said "I'm thinking of buying an '80s S10 with the
4cyl" you'd have people calling you crazy. They you say "but I'm going to put
small tires on it and give it 4.10 gears so that the rear end doesn't spew
parts and the transmission lives a long time" and they'd call you an idiot.

Somehow a special purpose truck body makes it more acceptable.

It goes to show you how much context/framing matter.

------
RickJWagner
Awesome. It's good to hear of government spending that results in long service
life, lessons learned, and value for the taxpayer.

------
PaulHoule
In Upstate New York our postal workers prefer asian small cars to official
Post Office truck because they handle better in the snow.

------
matte_black
Do these ever get sold off to the public?

~~~
s0rce
Yes, here was one:
[https://www.govdeals.com/?fa=Main.Item&itemid=6463&acctid=35...](https://www.govdeals.com/?fa=Main.Item&itemid=6463&acctid=357#media)

Doesn't look like any are listed at the moment.

~~~
matte_black
Wow they are cheap!!

------
m23khan
very interesting read. US Postal service had some rigorous requirements and
these trucks are definitely an engineering feat. Here in Canada, the Canada
Post trucks are similar looking too.

~~~
bryanlarsen
According to wikipedia, it is the same vehicle. It looks like we've chosen a
different replacement than USPS, though.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_LLV](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_LLV)

~~~
stan_rogers
We don't need to worry so much about the "not American" thing. The Transit is
a proven, off-the-shelf product... but while Ford, it's European. That's not
going to fly south of the border.

------
gcb0
offtopic: Love how it have a youtube embed from youtube-nocookie.com, yet i
can see 1 cookie attempt for youtube-nocookie.com, 10 cookies for google.com,
3 for www.google.com

------
benj111
This appears to be based on an earlier British design
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postman_Pat](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postman_Pat)

Edit: With tongue firmly in cheek of course.

------
morcutt
I see Dodge Promasters replacing some of these in Austin, Texas.

~~~
zachkatz
Same with Portland, Oregon

------
black-tea
Why are they right-hand drive?

~~~
grzm
So you can put mail a mailbox without getting out from behind the wheel.

------
Latteland
Good job in 1980s. They have probably already considered the replacements and
I think it will be a difficult choice. It is probably too early to switch to
electric vehicles. I think (without any real info) they should shoot for
investigating electric vehicles in 3 years. In 3 years the cost benefits will
have conclusively gone to EVs, but just as important Congress and
conservatives should be okay with with one of those newfangled "gasless
carriages".

~~~
Xylakant
Most postal delivery in somewhat urban environment is a prime case for
electric vehicles: low mileage per day, lots of stop and go, low average and
low top speed combine with a central spot where vehicles can be charged for
extended periods.

It’s not a coincidence that DHL is operating a large electric fleet.

