
A backyard mechanic who is taking on Tesla - lelf
https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2019/03/04/the-backyard-mechanic-who-taking-tesla/Sv1l8q2sxpQvTFMp13VFwM/story.html
======
userbinator
_A Tesla representative, in a statement to the Globe, said “there are
significant safety concerns when salvaged Teslas are repaired improperly or
when Tesla parts are used outside of their original design intent, as these
vehicles could pose a danger to both the mechanic and other drivers on the
road.”_

It seems Tesla is deliberately ignoring or trying to squash the
aftermarket/custom-car culture which has basically existed since cars
existed... and in contrast, Chrysler/Ford/GM are happy to sell you parts like
engines and transmissions without caring whether they'll even be used in a
car, and have been doing so for literally decades, so obviously they're aware
of and not worried about any legal liability issues.

~~~
twothamendment
"Chrysler/Ford/GM are happy to sell you parts like engines and transmissions
without caring whether they'll even be used in a car"

Ancedata says some of the big 3 do care. A guy down the road from me ordered
500 engines from Ford. They followed up on the order and when he explained
they were for airplanes, they cancelled it, saying they didn't want to be
liable for an automotive engine in a plane.

His plan to turn his custom plane into a kit stopped at a beautiful one-off
that sits in his museum when he isn't flying it.

If he was going to put the engines in a tractor, I bet they would have sold
them, but they didn't want to be liable for something in a plane.

*Edit - it was 1000 engines, not 500. Also found a link some might find interesting: [http://stonehengeairmuseum.org/1992-montaniar](http://stonehengeairmuseum.org/1992-montaniar)

~~~
OldFatCactus
The regulations around airplane engines are nuts (for good reason). I would've
been wary as well

~~~
ryandrake
If he was building an experimental amateur-built (E-AB) category airplane,
then there was likely no regulatory issue. Just lawsuit-scared lawyers. Not
passing judgment--If I had lawyers I would want them to be conservative and
cautious too.

You can put pretty much any engine you want in an airplane you build yourself,
as long as you comply with the (reasonably light) homebuilt regulations:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homebuilt_aircraft](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homebuilt_aircraft)

~~~
al2o3cr

        If he was building an experimental amateur-built (E-AB) category airplane,
        then there was likely no regulatory issue.
    

I have no idea how much these particular engines cost, but even at $100 a pop
buying hundreds of them at once puts the applicability of "amateur" under some
strain (or that of "experimental", TBH).

OTOH, something about this story doesn't entirely make sense: who would get to
the point they were ready to drop six figures on buying engines without,
y'know, _checking_ the regulations?

~~~
twothamendment
"who would get to the point they were ready to drop six figures on buying
engines..."

Right, what kind of guy is this? The kind who built a full size, accurate
working Stonehenge just for fun.

~~~
Phillipharryt
Working Stonehenge? Is it possible to have an accurate but not working
Stonehenge?

~~~
sneak
Those won’t open portals to the ancient alien homeworld, they just sit on the
ground on Earth and look cool.

------
Spooky23
This kind of bullshit is why I’m solidly in the “fuck Tesla” camp. The battles
over auto repair and nonsense “safety” excuses were fought 100 years ago and
shouldn’t need to be fought again, only in this dysfunctional era of American
government is it possible for Tesla to even exist.

Like any big company, they demonstrate every day why it’s so important to have
independent service. As a company, they are too incompetent to run retail
outlets, unable to supply spare parts for cars that are mostly unchanged year
to to year, and unable to actually repair cars in the handful of service
centers that exist.

Hopefully the successor company that buys them out doesn’t go down this path.

~~~
decebalus1
I think it's more than repairs. The model to which this is converging is the
abandonment of ownership. You do want to get YOUR car repaired but if it's not
your car in the first place, you can't. I think the narrative is slowly
building towards that. You're licensed to drive the car, you bought the
license, not the car. It doesn't matter if you are in physical possession of
the metal parts as long as the software running them is updated automatically
and you're not allowed to repair them.

[https://www.teslarati.com/do-you-own-a-tesla-or-does-a-
tesla...](https://www.teslarati.com/do-you-own-a-tesla-or-does-a-tesla-own-
you/)

John Deere managed to do this [https://www.wired.com/2015/04/dmca-ownership-
john-deere/](https://www.wired.com/2015/04/dmca-ownership-john-deere/) so it's
all the history repeating. And I agree with you, the dysfunctional
anticonsumer regulatory environment enabled this.

~~~
rchaud
This recently happened to a Kobo e-reader I bought in 2013 and have been using
happily. On March 1, the company announced some firmware upgrade that I was
required to install to continue even using the device. This was not a security
patch and wasn't related to the ereader's core functionality. We're talking
about a $50 ereader that only connects to my laptop once in a blue moon to
transfer EPUB files.

Can't use it anymore without installing a firmware upgrade now. Turns out, I
have a license to use the device, just not to own it.

~~~
Gibbon1
My opinion is a company that does that should be if you so desire, required to
buy the device back from you at retail and pay for shipping.

------
LeonM
I'd strongly recommend checking out Rich's youtube channel (0). It's a great
mix of humor, geeky details and good tesla-rant every now and then.

Rich is currently running a crowdfunding campaign to start his own shop, which
I am not to sure about. So far they have invested in wheel balancers and
alignment equipment, which has nothing to do with EV's, that's just car
maintenance.

[0]
[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfV0_wbjG8KJADuZT2ct4SA](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfV0_wbjG8KJADuZT2ct4SA)

~~~
Theodores
Particularly the episode where 'Daisy' catches fire. This being some Disney
themed car that is made of wood and came with lead acid batteries.

The dramatic fire happens after the Tesla batteries go in. Luckily some quick
thinking saved the day and no buildings were burned to the ground.

Regarding his ambitions for a shop, I think that there is demand for the
services of someone who knows the innards of the Tesla and happens to have a
lot of spare parts. If a Tesla owner is going to have their car in repair for
months and they have the choice of someone else having a look at it, to maybe
fix it for less than what Tesla would charge then there is a niche there.

The crowdfunding is also about publicity. Sadly banks don't invest in
businesses as a general rule, hence the crowdfunding option beckons for many
people who should be able to go to the bank with a business plan, borrow the
money at today's low interest rates and pay it off.

With crowdfunding you have to pay the funders something or be begging on a
charitable basis. With the bank it should be a straightforward business
proposition.

Anyway, I wish Rich the best of success and his willingness to show incidents
such as the fire.

------
Shivetya
I work for a major parts supplier; probably the most well known in America;
and I am still very curious how the company will adapt to an EV future. Simple
look at the components listing of an EV reveals that outside of the parts most
cars share; suspension components, brakes components, some fluids, filters,
lights, compressors (think HVAC), and frills, there is little in common among
the brands that third party service centers can work on.

I haven't seen really any commonality among packs or even motor designs. I am
sure with sufficient volume the motors will eventually be a part that can be
rebuilt, replaced, and such, but unless there is an industry move towards a
standardized pack design its pretty much going to be full replacement and at
the behest of the manufacturer.

Owning a TM3 my only real fear is an accident that requires replacement parts.
My auto insurance is slightly higher than normal as my agent stated its
flagged as difficult to repair and costly. The cost factor includes length of
rental reimbursement.

People like to put EV adoption solely on range anxiety and some point to
charging but long term it is also come down to ease of service and that must
include choice of who does that.

~~~
phkahler
>> People like to put EV adoption solely on range anxiety...

This is a term that irritates me every time I see it. EVs have a range
problem. You can't drive them long distances without running into charging
issues and doing careful planning around it. Telsa has longer range and their
network of charging stations, but it still requires planning to deal with.
This is an issue with the cars, and to call it "range anxiety" feels like
making it some kind of perceptual issue with the driver. Like hey dude, get
over it. In my mind this is a subtle way to blame shift from the technology to
the would-be customers. Tesla being the one company taking it the most
seriously and providing good range and a network of fairly quick chargers. But
still, cars don't have anxiety - people do and the problem here is the cars
don't meet peoples expectations.

~~~
turtlebits
Range anxiety absolutely exists. It's the fear that you'll run out of power on
your trip. It's the same anxiety you get when you're low on gas an unsure if
you can make it to a gas station.

You do get over it. It takes a while to realize that you generally will have a
full charge every day and you stop looking at the gauge.

~~~
phkahler
>> Range anxiety absolutely exists.

But it's still a problem with the vehicle. Go ahead, take your EV on a cross
country trip.

I worked on the Focus Electric and realized I couldn't even use it as a daily
commuter without paying extra attention. Most days it would be more than
adequate, but if for some reason I wanted to make a detour from my daily drive
- like up to our motor manufacturing plant - it would not make it on the
overnight charge. Granted, that car has fairly short range. A Tesla (or
Rivian) should go all day in local driving, so they punt the range problem
down the road to mostly long trips. But it's still a problem compared to ICE
vehicles.

My problem with the wording is this: The shortcomings of EVs rightly cause
anxiety in people. But lets stop focusing on the anxiety in the humans and
start talking about the issues with EVs. Until companies change that attitude,
they'll make things like the Focus, Leaf, Volt. Yeah, I think the Volt was a
mistake but some people love it and feel that it addressed the range issue
nicely. It did address the issues head on, just not in a way that I like.

~~~
Forbo
Why was the Volt a mistake? I was genuinely looking forward to purchasing one
until they decided to discontinue it. It seems to me like series hybrids could
be the fastest way to drastic reduction of emissions short of massive
government intervention. Judging by the way things have gone with the EPA
under Trump, I'm doubting that's going to be happening soon.

------
benguild
There’s a great Motherboard episode about him:
[https://youtu.be/NuAMczraBIM](https://youtu.be/NuAMczraBIM)

~~~
runemadsen
This should be the top comment. Motherboard did all the research and work to
show this guy to the world.

------
jasoncartwright
This chap is very impressive, and pretty crazy - spending tens (hundreds?) of
thousands of $ on apparently unserviceable cars, then opening up the high
voltage systems on them with no help from the manufacturer.

His YouTube channel is here
[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfV0_wbjG8KJADuZT2ct4SA](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfV0_wbjG8KJADuZT2ct4SA)

~~~
joncrane
>pending tens (hundreds?) of thousands of $ on apparently unserviceable cars

If you read the article, his net cost for the one Tesla he drives was $6500.
This is because he bought two junked cars for about $30k, assembled the one
"Good" car out of the combined parts, then was able to resell the remaining
duplicate good parts for the difference.

~~~
gambiting
That's great, but at the start he had no idea if he would ever and up with a
working car or recoup any cost at all. I don't know how rich I'd need to be to
bet $30k on a broken car.

~~~
jgust
It's a fine line between

> bet $30k on a broken car

and spending $30k on your "hobby". I think it's just a shift in mindset.

------
zzzeek
going to go out on a limb as I might not know what I'm talking about - a tesla
is blurring the lines between mechanics and software to an even greater degree
than most/all other conusmer-level cars on the road. IIUC,
Chrysler/Ford/GM/Toyota etc. don't give consumers any ability to mess with the
electronics or software in these cars. I can see how Tesla engineers would be
uncomfortable with hobbyists putting the cars together themselves. The Teslas
are really super different than any other car I've driven (I've driven a few).

That said I absolutely _support_ what this guy is doing, I'm just saying
allowing your highly computerized car to also be hackable without adding new
safety risks adds a lot of engineering expense to it and I can see why Tesla
doesn't want to allow that. I don't want people messing with the source code
of my libraries that I release and then suing me when they unsuccessfully
tried using it to calculate how much fuel their plane has left.

~~~
3pt14159
I'm afraid you do not understand correctly.

When I started to become concerned about the mass weaponization of autonomous
systems I looked into what was actually happening in the field. Tesla is _by
far_ the safest out of any consumer-car company with respect to cybersecurity.
(Waymo is safer, but their cars aren't in the possession of consumers yet.)

There are some other car companies (e.g., Audi) that are better than others,
but many of them are downright disasters. Because many large car manufacturers
refused to sell tools to engage the software that is used in cars, but
mechanics want to interact with it anyway, what they've resorted to doing is
relying on third party diagnostic tools. Most of the times these tools are
running some horrible out of date version of linux or, if they're lucky, an
Arduino.

Many of the components within automotives are vulnerable. Ironically, some
that tried to take safety seriously often bought into promises from vendors
that didn't work out as expected. For example, QNX was damn vulnerable (broken
SRNG, admin password backdoor, etc) and it's in countless subcomponents of
vehicles of many types, including cars, but also military tanks and freight
trucks. (I've even heard that it's been used in scarier stuff, like nuclear
power plants, but that's third hand.)

Anyway, I don't have all the answers or information, but at least as things
stand right now, I'm with Tesla on this one. The last thing we want for our
computerized cars is Joe programmer teaming up with Jane mechanic thinking
they know what they're doing when they don't.

~~~
zzzeek
i was responding to the notion that "all car companies allow their cars to be
hackable" and how that is not really true. I know very well that the software
in modern cars is really insecure, buggy, and sometimes even willfully
lawbreaking. Opening it up to consumers should be done but how to do it
without introducing the risk of hobbyists driving dangerous cars on the road
that endangers others is an unsolved problem. Asking Tesla to do this and not
any of the other manufacturers else wouldn't be fair to them, it should be
across the board.

Longer term I think driving on public roads should itself be illegal once
things are autonomous, but even then, allowing hacked autonomous cars on the
road are still a problem. It points towards a future where self-owned cars
just aren't allowed on roads anymore. If you traveled in time 300 years and
landed on the spot a major highway existed in the present, what would be
there?

~~~
snazz
As soon as you disallow self-modified cars, where is the line drawn? These
kinds of regulations give big companies that can acquire “car-making licenses”
lots of power and take away a valid and perfectly legal hobby from millions of
people.

~~~
zzzeek
> As soon as you disallow self-modified cars, where is the line drawn?

the road :) that's your line. a hundred years from now.

------
agumonkey
Honestly, I believe Tesla is not lying. They may profit from not having a
backmarket.. but as of now, people doing part swap on cars is super terrible.
It's also pretty easy to imagine that if anything happens on a Tesla, the
company will be blamed no matter what. Some people might even sue.

------
almost_usual
So we're supposed to treat these Teslas that are 'good' for the environment
like an old iPhone and toss them in the landfill when they stop working? Not
try to repair them? What a joke.

Larry Ellison can shove it. People are going to figure out how to repair their
own vehicle no matter what. You can't hide DIY information like that, someone
will eventually figure it out and document it.

~~~
asavadatti
Larry Ellison?

~~~
almost_usual
[https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/tesla-
stock-...](https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/tesla-stock-price-
larry-ellison-kathleen-wilson-thompson-named-to-board-2018-12-1027835823)

------
AltmousGadfly
Fantastic story! That's what America is all about!

To lawmakers - the "Right to Repair" law clearly has a loophole. What is to
stop other auto manufacturers from going to an online only sales model in
order to bypass the law? Might wanna fix that.

~~~
phkahler
No company is under any obligation to sell parts to anyone in particular. The
law worked in this case (perhaps by accident). He was able to swap parts from
one car to another, which is something that car manufacturers don't want in
some cases. You may find replacing electronic components on one vehicle with
those from another doesn't work - it's in the name of theft prevention, but
that's at odds with right to repair. That didn't happen here, the only
obstacles he really had were availability of information and parts.

------
reddog
If you have an inalienable right to repair/rebuild/modify your Tesla do you
also have the right to do the same to your future level 5, fully-autonomous
self driving car?

Rich is a true engineering rock star for pulling off what he did with the
Tesla. And I fully support his right to do so and think Tesla should be more
supportive to the backyard mechanics. But if he was trying to do the same
thing by kludging together a couple of broken, fully-autonomous cars? I think
that is where I would draw the line.

~~~
jaak
_If you have an inalienable right to repair /rebuild/modify your Tesla do you
also have the right to do the same to your future level 5, fully-autonomous
self driving car?_

Absolutely you do. I expect there to be a certain amount of certification and
oversight in safety critical systems - perhaps similar to how the FAA
regulates repair and maintenance for general aviation.

~~~
reddog
Would it then be OK for the autonomous car DIYer to modify the software to
drive a bit more aggressively? Or to always favor passenger survival over
pedestrian/bicyclist survival in an emergency situation? Or maybe he just
wants to use a less expensive LIDAR than the the one car was originally
equipped with and wants to mount it in a different place?

For that matter, would you be OK with Tesla open sourcing their existing lane
keeping/auto pilot system so current owners could hack it however they want?

------
rb808
What if Tesla goes bankrupt? Are we allowed to repair then?

~~~
kw71
Maybe they won't try to sue you for distributing the documentation and
software, then :)

------
ForHackernews
This guy is amazing. I love his Boston accent and his total DGAF attitude. A
true hacker.

------
benj111
You know how its all over the news everytime a Tesla has a crash?

EVs are an unknown quantity for most people, if someone repaired their Tesla
badly and something happened, all that would be reported is 'Tesla catches
fire', but you wouldn't see 'petrol powered Ford catches fire'.

So I think its understandable that Tesla would want to be protective. That's
not to say that I think they should be allowed to do it though. One would hope
that there's an independent testing regime to check that the car is actually
roadworthy.

~~~
dwighttk
to be fair: Tesla is selling you the battery, Ford isn't selling you the
petrol

~~~
benj111
Is that a correct metaphor?

Surely the battery is a petrol tank, and electricity, petrol.

~~~
sjwright
The metaphor barely works either way and breaks down entirely once you factor
in home solar.

~~~
benj111
Home solar would be a nodding donkey on the patio.

------
benmorris
Rich brought to light recently how much of a mess the used Tesla experience
(no longer CPO) is as well. There are two more videos, the situation is
resolved after many months and Tesla execs intervening.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgMTx_xFezM&t=4s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgMTx_xFezM&t=4s)

Wife and I were seriously considering a used Model S but there is no chance
we'd go through what he did to buy a used car.

------
oblib
The notion that a "backyard" mechanic cannot repair or modify a Tesla or most
anything else is bullshit.

So is the notion they can.

What's truly at stake here is the right to try.

------
atonse
Love his YouTube channel and also that we can see the innards of Teslas and
how they work at such a detailed level.

------
ykevinator
No need to disparage tree huggers, but this is a great story.

~~~
TomK32
You can hug a tree with any car, be it a Tesla, Corvette or Porsche. Once.

~~~
robohoe
Cool fact: Porsche 930 is nicknamed "Widowmaker" because it had a tendency to
steer rear-first into trees back in the day.

------
chriscaruso
Cool stuff. Love people who are passionate enough to embark on a tenuous DIY
journey!

------
willart4food
LOL. I Love this!

------
mtw
There's a genuine risk in this case, the car was flooded, and so were the
batteries. Who knows if the frame are still in place or if the wires are still
connected to the right place.

Imagine a "mechanic" who duct-tapes it, then charge it, the person can put
everything on fire and injure people. Then others will sue Tesla. I haven't
heard of mechanic setting regular cars on fire when repairing them though.

I understand the right of owners to repair their propriety, especially in a
time where we consume too much stuff, but a Tesla is just to dangerous for
people to work with.

~~~
MrFoof
As others have stated, this is irrelevant.

There are plenty of ways to get cars with gasoline engines to catch fire, and
any attempts to sue every other manufacturer over the poor work of shade-tree
mechanics is already something that has been dealt with for decades.

Moreover there are other manufacturers that are long as annoying to deal with
as Tesla, particularly exotics -- they're just that, annoying -- that do
things by the book, no worse than any certified manufacturer mechanic.

Hell, some independents are invaluable. My personal mechanic has had to have
video calls with Porsche Classic (in Stuttgart) to tell them how Porsche badly
did work (at great expense) on cars like the 959, that he then had to do
right, because Porsche's official Classic restoration shop effed it up. He's
functionally restoring lost knowledge at Porsche because the domain knowledge
of those cars was lost -- and you'll find independent mechanics for Ferrari,
Lamborghini, Aston Martin, McLaren, etc. that are also equally invaluable to
keep classics running and dead reliable, and helping the manufacturers out by
providing training, and ensuring there's a (very profitable) customer base
with an interest for the old metal.

I buy and repair/flip lots of popular used commodity cars -- including hybrids
-- as a hobby. Hybrids are increasingly popular for me because there's demand,
and most mechanics haven't bothered with them yet, so it's a pretty easy $1800
- $2500 to turn around a Prius that needed a rebuilt battery from a reliable
battery re-manufacturer that stands by 6-year warranties on their battery
packs.

I've met Rich a few times at car shows. He's not a knucklehead, and Teslas
aren't rocket surgery. Those battery packs are a different beast than the
40-50kg packs in a hybrid, but if you can remove a rear subframe with the
engine, transaxle and rear suspension from a mid-or-rear engine sports car
with a 6-to-12 cylinder, you're ready for a Tesla battery pack replacement.

~~~
geon
> if you can remove a rear subframe with the engine, transaxle and rear
> suspension from a mid-or-rear engine sports car with a 6-to-12 cylinder,
> you're ready for a Tesla battery pack replacement.

I think the problem might be that a lot of people will assume replacing the
battery in a Tesla isn't much different from replacing the battery in their
1998 Toyota.

Electric cars are kind of new, and it will take a while for our culture to
catch up.

~~~
vkou
So Tesla should, as they are expected to, by law, provide training and repair
manuals to third parties.

