

Laziness, greed, and stupidity - karjaluoto
http://www.ideasonideas.com/2010/08/dark-forces-are-gathering/

======
crystalis
This seems to read like
[http://www.recombinantrecords.net/docs/2009-05-Amusing-
Ourse...](http://www.recombinantrecords.net/docs/2009-05-Amusing-Ourselves-to-
Death.html) and its source- is there anything new here?

(That is, other than the suggestion that the best way to combat large-scale
industrial waste is through personal actions not unlike turning off the lights
at home?)

~~~
karjaluoto
I did read Postman's book a few years back, so there certainly may be themes
from there that I've inadvertently referenced. I feel that Postman was talking
more about the challenges associated with media, while I was looking at our
ideas surrounding consumption.

For the record, though, "Amusing Ourselves to Death" was quite a good read.
:-)

------
lionhearted
> The American government bails out giants of industry, while a substantial
> part of the populace still protests universal health care. Isn’t that a sort
> of strange thing?

I think the people protesting government-run healthcare are also protesting GM
and bank bailouts even louder. But regardless, this submission seems pretty
conducive to an unproductive politics mudsling, so going to just flag and move
on.

~~~
karjaluoto
Do you really think the post boiled down to just "an unproductive politics
mudsling"?

Although you're free to hold that opinion, I have to say that it does perplex
me. Either it means that you didn't give it a thorough read, or I simply
failed in writing it.

In my mind, the political component was a rather small part of the overall
argument--which I'd hope would be worthy of more discussion.

Perhaps I'm a little on the hyperbolic side at times, but I keep thinking that
we're doing very little to address a problem that's going to have enormous
impacts on all of us.

As for the GM/Healthcare discussion, you'll have to forgive me. Being on the
northern side of the border, it's hard to understand why so many in America
seem so angry about it.

~~~
lionhearted
> Do you really think the post boiled down to just "an unproductive politics
> mudsling"?

No, but I think the discussion on HN is likely to devolve into that. There's a
reason politics articles are more or less banned here. I know it's your own
site you're promoting so it makes sense to just submit wherever, but you're
talking about politics, economics, egalatarianism, regulation, socialism,
healthcare, bailouts, environmental atrocities - this is all crammed into one
post.

No one who sees your post is going to get convinced one way or another -
people who were sympathetic are going to remain sympathetic, people who were
hostile are going to remain hostile. That's we try to stay away from politics
here.

~~~
macrael
Why do you think that is? Why is it so hard to discuss these things in a
meaningful way. We all like to think we are reasonable people, that we are
open to having our minds changed, and yet it does seem to be impossible to
talk about big ideas in any setting other than a dialogue between friends.

~~~
karjaluoto
I don't really know. To me, it's always seemed that the best, and most
interesting, discussions are the ones with some "meat" to them.

My wife's uncle was a very loud man. He was also well read and intelligent. I
didn't agree with him on everything, but greatly enjoyed our discussions
(particularly the ones accompanied by good scotch).

His sons later recounted a phrase he had used commonly. I paraphrase, but it
was something akin to: "Argue with the person across the table as though you
love them." I'm butchering the phrasing here, but I believe the sentiment
holds.

To Terry, a heated debate was a positive thing, and never an attack--no matter
how fierce the discussion became. I've always liked that thinking, and believe
it's the way we actually learn new things and strengthen our resolve on what
we believe.

~~~
loup-vaillant
> "Argue with the person across the table as though you love them."

Excellent. Probably one of the best way to be willing to actually change your
mind.
[http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/How_To_Actually_Change_Your_M...](http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/How_To_Actually_Change_Your_Mind)

