
Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident - gigq
http://durham.io/2013/07/09/seth-vidal-creator-of-yum-open-source-software-killed-in-bike-accident-off-hillandale-rd/
======
cagenut
I just met Seth in-person for the first time at ansiblefest a few weeks ago,
after having crossed paths with him on irc for nearly a decade. Every time I
renewed a RHEL subscription at work his was a specific name I had in mind that
I wanted to fund the work of. I've built my entire career on the
redhat/fedora/centos/yum/cobbler/func/ansible projects he's been a major part
of.

He wasn't just a prolific contributor, he was a really good guy. He helped
people out in irc channels near constantly. After my first ever conference
presentation he came up to me and complimented and thanked me for it. He was
both a code and cultural pillar of the greater redhat community, I will miss
him.

~~~
3am
What a huge loss for the RDU tech community. A very decent guy by all accounts
and a huge legacy in the open source world. It's very difficult seeing his
handle still logged into a number of freenode channels, where he was so active
and helpful.

Deepest sympathies to his colleagues, friends, and family.

------
oinksoft
The sad truth is that while bicycles should be respected as vehicles, they are
given lip service at best in driver education and there is little attempt made
at going after motorists who drive aggressively around them. As a result, you
put yourself at great risk of life and limb when you ride on a road like this
one:
[http://www.mapquest.com/?version=1.0&hk=6-LvU0mhA3](http://www.mapquest.com/?version=1.0&hk=6-LvU0mhA3)
(Hillandale Rd, Durham, NC)

I accomplish all of my short-range transport by bicycle or foot, and I only
very rarely will even ride on the main thoroughfare through downtown
Alexandria, Washington St., because its practical speed limit is 40mph
although the posted one is 25mph. Too many times drivers cut it close, honk at
me to point out the audacity of crowding the auto-space, or slam their brakes
without noticing my bike behind them.

Riding a bicycle on any street that has a speed limit greater than 25mph,
lacks frequent stops (lights or signs), or has more than one lane is simply
treacherous even for the skilled cyclist because you never know when a self-
important jerk like the mystery murderer here will feel the need to shave
twenty seconds off of their commute.

~~~
enraged_camel
I only ride my bike on dedicated bike lanes (by "dedicated" I mean those
blocked from the main road) and bike paths. Everywhere else, I ride on the
sidewalk. Fortunately, most sidewalks where I live are sparsely populated, and
I make sure to slow down to walking speed or dismount completely when going
through areas with lots of pedestrians.

Someone told me I could get cited for riding my bike on a sidewalk. Fuck that
shit. I'd rather pay $50 than get hit by a car.

~~~
preinheimer
As a pedestrian, you terrify and bully me.

As a driver managing turns, you're traveling at a very different speed than
the people I'm expecting on the sidewalk which makes turning safely much more
difficult.

~~~
darth_aardvark
How does the speed of someone on the sidewalk affect a driver?

~~~
ianferrel
A driver turning off the street onto a side street or down a driveway needs to
ensure that there will be no one in his driving path before starting the turn.
If people are walking on the sidewalk, he needs to look 10 feet or so to
either side. If they're riding bikes or skateboards or something that travels
much faster than a walking person, he needs to look much further to either
side.

------
joeyh
I'm a Debian guy. I randomly encountered Seth at a hotel in Berlin, and we
spent several very jetlagged hours in the lobby waiting for rooms to open up
and talking about everything from yum performance to peak oil to
blacksmithing. That trip turned out to be my worst European trip ever -- most
of my other memories of it involve shivering under an expensive feather duvet
and trying not to infect anyone when I dragged myself to meetings. Seth let me
have a positive memory of that trip. We swam in different circles online and I
only knew him briefly, but he was clearly a great guy.

(Also, this is the second friend of mime to be killed in a hit and run car vs
bike. The other was lilo. Sucks.)

------
eddieroger
It's a shame that this has to turn from a really sad event to another bikes
versus car debate, especially with so little information available other than
it was a hit and run.

~~~
larrys
On HN as on any forum (or where people get together and discuss something that
just happened) that _is what happens_.

The event is merely a spark for a discussion.

Would it be better if all you saw was a string of "sorry to hear that" type
responses (similar to a guest book in a funeral home). My opinion is no, I
like the discussion.

~~~
Zikes
It would be more appropriate to share stories of our personal interactions
with the deceased and to discuss their contributions to the world.

------
stevesalevan
I had the opportunity to work with Seth on the Func project and knew him to be
a seriously stand-up dude who cared deeply about the quality of his work and
the people who used it. You just had to say 'skvidal' on #fedora-devel and, as
if by magic, he'd appear and get you unblocked on whatever it was you were
hacking on. It was just unbelievable, I've never known a developer that cared
so much about making people's lives easier.

Everyone who had the privilege to be in Seth's orbit knew he was a hell of a
developer, a hell of a sysadmin, and a man who worked his ass off to make the
world of Linux a better place, and by god did he make it so.

RIP Seth, I will miss you greatly and I know that there must be a massive
crowd of folks up there vouching for you, having saved this mortal world from
dependency hell.

~~~
mpdehaan2
Hi Steve (and fellow Func contributor!).

Amen.

The influence Seth has had on my career, in fact the way I look at so many
things, has been so incredibly huge I don't know what to say. He's helped me
so much in so many ways, influenced the way I think in so many ways, without
Func my current company wouldn't even exist and who knows what I'd be doing.

If there's any advice here to take away that I might have learned from a lot
of great memo-list posts from Seth, if anything at all, is go make the world a
better place. Don't just write software. Care about stuff and making the world
a better place. It's important. And take some time to let your yard get mowed
by goats, because it's funny to watch :)

We will all miss you a ton.

------
portlander52232
"Hit and run bike accident". No, a hit and run automobile homicide.

~~~
danso
Fatal vehicle accidents are not always vehicular homicide/manslaughter. A
standard of negligence (such as being past the DUI limit) has to be
established. Hit-and-run also does not necessarily result in a homicide (or
assault) charge being filed.

~~~
xanderstrike
Someone struck him with a car and killed him. I think leaving the scene after
killing someone with a vehicle should satisfy any any standard of negligence.

~~~
FireBeyond
Let me paint you a picture - an accurate picture, as agreed by both parties in
a court of law. Whilst I did not witness the incident, I was an EMS responder.
And whilst this did not end in a death, there are many a parallel.

A young man, in a hurry, changes his plans, and driving. He pulls in to an old
fire station, turned scout hall, where some boy scouts are having a meeting.
In the courtyard that was the engine apron, he yanks the steering wheel and
makes his wheels squeal, sprays a little gravel.

Two parents who are outside waiting for their children yell at him. He gives
them the finger. They say he's a dangerous driver and that they're calling the
cops, and he'd better stay. He says "No, I'm leaving". Voices are raised.

The driver decides no, he really is leaving. The parents decide (rightly or
wrongly) that he isn't - they're making a citizen's arrest. He puts his car in
gear. From each side, at the same time, the parents open his car door.

They admit that it's to stop him.

He admits he panics. He puts the car in reverse and hits the accelerator - the
open doors catch both parents and knock them down. The older parent breaks his
hip.

The younger one, however - much worse. His head is caught between the asphalt
and the bottom of the car door, and as he reverses, the man's head is dribbled
almost like a basketball between the two, before the driver gets free, and
flees the scene.

The other parents call the police (and EMS). The driver is picked up nearby
and charged with vehicular assault and leaving the scene.

Had he, however, left the scene and immediately called 911, the parents would
have been the ones charged, with kidnapping / false imprisonment. The driver's
defense, and one which stood in court a great deal, was that the parents had
already demonstrated a willingness to physically restrain him against his will
for a tenuous "crime", and after his panic, who is to say that he wouldn't be
in further physical danger?

The younger driver, as it happens, recovered fully - after an intracranial
hemorrhage, surgery, a medically-induced coma, and a 1 1/2" hole placed in his
skull to drain blood.

So, no - be careful to paint such broad black and white brush strokes.

~~~
xanderstrike
Sorry, I don't see how this is relevant. Kemp struck Seth with his car,
killing him, and ran away. That is a black and white issue, he hit someone
minding their own business and ran without taking responsibility, turning his
accident into a crime.

The situation you describe is about an altercation between parties that
results in injury. It's so different from a hit and run that I'm not even sure
where the logical connection is (besides both stories involving a car).

~~~
FireBeyond
That it can't be assumed to be a fait accompli that "negligence" or vehicular
homicide is involved in the scenario of anyone leaving the scene of an
accident.

------
pigs
Damn, this is sad. I'll echo the other comments here that he was a nice guy. I
was an undergrad at Duke circa 1999-2000 and knew him through the Duke LUG. I
was a noob, and he always showed a fair amount of patience with my questions
on the mailing list. Later on the LUG started meeting for beers on Friday
afternoons and he was just as friendly in real life. He was one of those guys
that seemed like a computing god for me so early in my career.

------
collinvandyck76
At some point in the future we will look back on the era of the automobile as
the era of carnage; the amount of life lost is staggering. I bike to work
every day in a pretty bike-friendly city (compared to most) and it is still
unnerving most days.

------
josh2600
This is terrible, but I wonder if there's a technical way we can provide a
black box for bicyclists so that these sorts of injustices don't go
unpunished.

RIP :(.

~~~
antr
A camera mounted on the bike/helmet is the best solution
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqSp4XZX0CU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqSp4XZX0CU)

~~~
dusing
Funny how the video also shows them running a stop sign. I think you have to
follow lights and stop signs even in the bike lane, right?

~~~
notatoad
Not necessarily. In some regions cyclists are legally allowed to treat a stop
sign as a yield sign.

~~~
cobrausn
This sounds like an incredibly bad idea. This pushes even more responsibility
onto the person operating several thousand pounds of metal, assuming they will
make the correct snap judgement when a bike they didn't see rides out in front
of them.

It seems to me the bike riders have a lot more to lose at that stop sign than
any car driver who doesn't see the bike.

~~~
_neil
This is getting further off-topic, but I generally treat stop signs as a yield
when I'm riding. I approach slowly and if there is a car stopped/nearing the
intersection, I will absolutely yield to them as I would in a car. The only
difference is that, if possible, I will try to avoid wasting energy by
stopping entirely.

This is both for my own benefit and for those who may come after me. If I can
maintain some of my kinetic energy, I can be out of the way much faster for
the next person in line.

I sometimes treat red lights as stop signs for the same reason. If I continue
through the light safely, the people behind me will be less annoyed (and
therefore less aggressive) about waiting for me to accelerate. Not everything
cyclists do is simply because fuck cars.

~~~
jberryman
I do the same thing. One thing I'm careful about now though is always slowing
down in acknowledgement of the stop sign, even if there's no one in the other
directions. I started doing that after I noticed bikers bringing cars along
with them when pedaling through a stop (presumably because the cars didn't
notice the stop).

------
rufugee
So very sad.

I personally think the world would be a much better place if cars were
relegated to intercity travel and walking/biking/public transit were the only
means of intracity movement. The world would be cleaner and in all likelihood
much healthier, and needless accidents like this would be avoided.

RIP.

~~~
JonSkeptic
Unfortunately, this is not remotely feasible in many of the most populated
cities of the US, nor many of the rural cities. [0] It's a nice thought, but
not one that could ever happen.

Till we learn to drive responsibly and be aware of our environment as a matter
of course, these accidents will continue to happen.

RIP.

[http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/03/05/c...](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/03/05/commuting-
in-the-u-s-is-long-and-hellish-but-at-least-it-hasnt-gotten-worse/)

~~~
bluepen44
"JonSkeptic"..not surprised by the sentiment of your comment.

I think it is feasible..certainly not in all cities and maybe not in any
established cities..but some small cities could implement such a solution.
That or entirely new cities could be created with this design.

Just require cars to be parked when entering city limits and traded for a golf
cart or Segway or something of the sort. The boundaries could be expanded as
the city grows if the idea was popular..

~~~
jlgreco
Even if you start designing new small cities to accommodate no automobiles,
you will not be able to eliminate automobiles outside those cities, nor will
you be able to force everyone to live in them.

You'd basically just be building a car-less retirement community and hope that
young people opt into it.

~~~
betterunix
Build light rail in existing cities, build parking lots for people who need to
drive to a light rail station, and start charging a toll for people who drive
in places where light rail could take them. Slowly but surely you can turn a
city built around cars into a city built around public transit. This is
possible in small and large cities and would reduce congestion, pollution, and
the danger to pedestrians and cyclists.

------
timboisvert
So sad to hear this. Condolences to his family and to all my former colleagues
at Red Hat. This is a huge loss for the open source community.

------
betterunix
So sad to hear this! I met Seth at FUDCon a few years ago, he was a nice guy
and very interesting to talk to. My condolences to his family and loved ones.

------
joonix
When will we stop tolerating the flagrant waste of life that occurs every day
as a result of our addiction and worship of the automobile?

~~~
Terretta
Probably the day after we stop tolerating the even more egregious waste of
life that occurs every day from mass over consumption of alcohol, tobacco,
and, well, food.[1]

Accidents are only 7th in the top 10 killers, and automobile accidents are a
fraction of that category[2].

If we want to tackle major causes of death, this is the place to start:

1\. [http://www.policymic.com/articles/24365/9-leading-causes-
of-...](http://www.policymic.com/articles/24365/9-leading-causes-of-death-in-
the-united-states)

2\.
[http://danger.mongabay.com/injury_death.htm](http://danger.mongabay.com/injury_death.htm)

~~~
weland
On the other hand, when it comes to alcohol and, to some extent, tobacco, one
can at least make the plea that most of the damage isn't external. I can't
kill anyone other than myself if I drink too much, whereas if I'm speeding on
the road, chances are I'm going to kill whatever I smash into, not only
myself. Of course, there's the added penalty related to the social
consequences of alcohol consumption (e.g. alienating those around me and
wrecking a couple of lives).

Don't get me wrong -- I agree with your premise and with the point you are
making -- but I think that, as far as the legal and public safety systems are
concerned, traffic issues don't go into the same category as alcohol
consumption. Alcohol consumption is primarily self-destructive, whereas
dangerous driving is not (arguably, someone wearing a seatbelt and protected
by airbags is probably safer than someone riding a bike when they get hit by a
car).

A good first step would probably be to discourage the superfluous use of cars.
I passionately hate people who absolutely have to drive their cars over a
distance they could cover, on foot, in thirty minutes, when they aren't really
rushed by anything. Seriously, get off your lazy ass and walk, or at least
take the bus...

~~~
Terretta
> _most of the damage isn 't external_

There are real dollar costs to our overall quality of life from society's
health self abuse expense. Excuse the graphic image, but a car accident is
generally walk away or dead, while health care for the long term unhealthy
keeps bleeding once it starts.

 _" The motorist advocacy group AAA said accidents cost $164.2 billion each
year, which based on the methodology used in the report comes to an annual per
person cost of $1,051." (2008)_

By comparison, some other systemic costs:

 _\- $190 billion in annual medical costs due to obesity (2012)_

 _\- CDC reports excessive alcohol consumption cost the U.S. $224 billion
(2006)_

 _\- Total annual public and private health care expenditures caused by
smoking: $96 billion_

 _\- Taxpayers yearly fed /state tax burden from smoking-caused gov’t
spending: $70.7 billion_

 _\- Productivity losses caused by smoking each year: $97 billion_

Obesity alone or alcohol alone cost us all more than accidents. I for one have
other "quality of life" things I'd like to do with my money than subsidize
"self destructive" choice.

> _I passionately hate people who absolutely have to drive their cars_

I clock under 4K miles a year, mostly long distance trips with four or more
passengers. But I'm fortunate enough to live near NYC and use public
transportation. It's a lot harder in most of the US. Comparing communities
across the US and Europe, it seems the best way to affect driving culture is
with community layouts that put food (groceries and restaurants) within easy
walking distance.

~~~
weland
> There are real dollar costs to our overall quality of life from society's
> health self abuse expense. Excuse the graphic image, but a car accident is
> generally walk away or dead, while health care for the long term unhealthy
> keeps bleeding once it starts.

Agreed. But there are other factors at stake in alcoholism or obesity, too.
Excluding drunk driving, which is in a league of its own (and alcoholism
definitely plays a factor there!), most of the people who drive dangerously
are simply jerks. Many alcoholics have legitimate economic, social, personal
or even psychical problems that lead them on this track, and many obese people
are obese as a result of, or partly due to underlying conditions (e.g.
endocrine system problems) or simply due to not being able to easily get the
amount healthy food and exercise they need. Whereas a lot of people involved
in accidents like this one are just idiots.

------
jcastro
I met Seth at a Linux conference once, he was a really friendly guy and well
liked, such a shame.

------
Eisbar
UK residents - please consider signing the .gov.uk epetition [1] for the
government to implement the "Get Britain Cycling Report" [2]. Report Summary
[3].

The petition is close to 70,000 signatures and should be debated in parliament
when it gets to 100,000.

RIP

[1]
[http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/49196](http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/49196)
[2] [http://allpartycycling.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/get-
brita...](http://allpartycycling.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/get-britain-
cycling_goodwin-report.pdf) [3]
[https://allpartycycling.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/get-
brit...](https://allpartycycling.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/get-britain-
cycling1.pdf)

------
ethomson
A tragedy. I knew Seth - albeit just barely - through friends in Durham. Great
guy; I knew he was a fellow cyclist but I had no idea that he was also a
programmer.

One of his most recent tweets is about bike commuting: "Just enjoy the ride."

My heart goes out to his friends and family.

------
gaoshan
The general availability of bike friendly travel options in the United States
is one that it woefully underserved.

In the past couple of years I have heard of so many bike/vehicle accidents
that I no longer ride anywhere that can be reached by a motor vehicle.

I used to ride on the road but the best option for me was a bike lane that
offered about a meter of space between myself and vehicles in a 55 mph zone.
In many places I had to risk just riding on the edge of the roadway and hoping
for the best and I had my share of getting brushed by side-view mirrors. No
more. It is simply too unsafe to risk riding anywhere that I am not physically
separated from traffic.

------
1qaz2wsx3edc
.

We've lost a lot of great people in the last year it seems.

~~~
GuiA
That's one of the both wonderful and sad things about our field; it is so
young and burgeoning that we get to interact with many of its founders and
grandmasters on a daily basis, but we also get to see them pass away.

We miss you, Seth :(

~~~
jpeg_hero
the human condition?

~~~
GuiA
You will likely see Gates, Stallman, Torvalds, Lessig, Knuth, Norman, Minsky,
Alan Kay, Abelson, Rivest, Sussman, [...] die in your lifetime. Sure, Turing,
Church, Curry and others have already died, but their numbers are low compared
to the ones that have not yet (and some of the older users here might actually
have been alive at the time of their passing).

If you were in a field such as chemistry/philosophy/biology/etc., you would
also be alive for the deaths of some eminent people in your field, but not in
the same proportions.

------
kacy
The guy turned himself in. [http://www.wral.com/man-charged-in-durham-hit-and-
run-that-k...](http://www.wral.com/man-charged-in-durham-hit-and-run-that-
killed-bicyclist/12644209/)

------
tlear
Sad truth is that if you get hit and hurt or killed while riding a bike,
chances of guilty part being punished are almost non-existent. In some places
people will actively try to run you from the road, almost everywhere you gona
get doored time to time. Thats just the reality of biking in a city in North
America.

Still chances of death or a really bad accident are relatively low, and biking
is way more fun then public transit. I have not been doored or hit in a few
years so I continue with it, but I am also very defensive while riding
basically assuming that every car will try to run me from the road so I try as
much as I can to give myself space to react. Remember police do not give a
shit at all, so your life is in your hands and those of random fucks trying to
shave 5 seconds from getting to wherever they are going.

~~~
russianbandit
Is this true? If someone is killed by a car while biking, the car driver won't
get time in jail?

------
nnq
I used to drive a bike trafficked roads, even at night, but I stopped doing
this _after almost hitting a biker while driving_ when I realized how hard it
is for a driver to see and avoid bikers in traffic or for bikers to go through
heavy trafficked area safely.

Driving a bike through traffic or on a trafficked road at night or driving
through a bikers area is basically the same as _driving while drunk and stoned
at the same time,_ only you don't realize it until you get hit by a car or you
hit a biker with your car and its too late for both of you then (though if you
do it, have at least the freakin _decency and humanity_ to call an ambulance
before running from the scene!)...

~~~
mindslight
> _though if you do it, have at least the freakin decency and humanity to call
> an ambulance before running from the scene_

Due to the non-anonymous nature of current telephones, this is impossible.

~~~
nnq
...there's a very simple non-technical solution to this, but I won't tell you
(read: "everyone" instead of "you" as we're on a public forum) what the
solution is because after knowing it you may be more tempted to flee from an
accident scene (you can probably figure out the solution by yourself if you
have a brain and an opsec oriented mind) and I'd feel morally responsive for
it :P

------
dylandrop
Really young too. What a shame.

------
talos
How is this a "bike accident"? It sounds like a hit-and-run murder, for which
the driver ought be prosecuted at the very least for vehicular manslaughter.

------
jwildeboer
Disgusting that so many post about what bicycle riders are to blame for
instead of getting together here and work hard on identifying the driver of
the car that killed Seth. Community, show your power and do something good in
all this evil.

A hit and run driver ranks very low on my acceptance level. As a fellow Red
Hatter that knew Seth I want to have the driver identified and brought to
justice.

------
blinkingled
People, avoid biking on roads, especially after dark. There's just too much
risk for it to be worth. What a terrible tragedy. RIP Seth.

~~~
ldh
People, avoid driving on roads, especially after dark. There's too much risk
involved in your negligent handling of several thousand pounds of metal for it
to be worth carelessly ending the life of somebody simply going about their
business using public infrastructure that they pay for and use in a manner
much less obtrusive and obnoxious than your own.

~~~
blinkingled
I guess you are also a proponent of walking through shady neighborhoods at
late nights then? While at it, do you also recommend carrying a holier than
thou placard to appeal any wandering criminals to change their ways? :)

~~~
jessaustin
I thought it was obvious that you should be _biking_ through your
neighborhood. Why would you walk?

------
johnfowler
This is awful. R.I.P.

------
oddshocks
The family wanted to keep this off social media for now. Unfortunate that you
posted this.

~~~
JeremyNT
Author of the blog post here.

My blog is intended for a small local audience, and I never intended it to
"break" this story to the Internet.

I wrote my post for a couple of reasons:

\- I wanted to add some context for my readers who might not be familiar with
Seth's work; in the original WRAL.com article, Seth is mentioned only by name,
with no other information about his accomplishments.

\- I feel horrible about what happened to Seth, almost physically ill. A man I
admired, an experienced cyclist, was killed on a road I have biked on many
times myself. I just felt the need to write... something.

I sincerely apologize if my actions have caused grief to the family.

~~~
oddshocks
I don't think you've harmed anything. The story's all over the place by now,
anyway. I am similarly sorry for the loss.

------
antitrust
I am sorry to hear of his death. He sounds like someone I would have liked to
know.

------
MrBra
damn... how stupid human beings can be? One's life is priceless, and we
sacrifice it because we have no patience for traffic ?

Damn... this is so hard to bear, I hope family will receive all positive
energy and love we are sharing here and beyond, and that this energy will
surprisingly shape their life in the future in a way that it will somehow ease
up their suffering a bit, and then one day make their life normal again,
togheter with the reaching of the wisdom that he is still around us/them.

With love..

------
kickingvegas
FWIW, I turn on my bike lights during the day for safety.

------
D9u
My condolences to Mr Vidal's family & friends.

------
ferdo
Seth was also outspoken and political. In the political environment in which
Americans live, which seems to resemble the old Soviet system in some ways,
one cannot discount the possibility of it not being an accident.

~~~
antitrust
> In the political environment in which Americans live, which seems to
> resemble the old Soviet system in some ways,

Can you tell us more about this?

~~~
ferdo
As only one example, Michael Hastings is a warning. Political dissent and
protest are now being met with death and prison. Barrett Brown is another
example. Smart, literate and technically proficient outspoken people are in
danger if they fall afoul of the Powers That Be.

I'm not saying that this is what happened to Seth. I'm merely saying that it
can't be discounted.

> I answered what I always answer: “I’m going to write a story; some of the
> stuff you’ll like, some of the stuff you probably won’t like.

> Jake came up to me. “We’ll hunt you down and kill you if we don’t like what
> you write,” he said. C. will hunt you down and kill you.”

> The Operators: The Wild and Terrifying Inside Story of America's War in
> Afghanistan

> by Michael Hastings

