
How Yoga Can Wreck Your Body - georgecmu
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/08/magazine/how-yoga-can-wreck-your-body.html?_r=2&pagewanted=all
======
danso
It's "no-duh" that yoga can hurt you. But what makes the exercise particularly
dangerous is that people go into it because it is seen as a recuperative,
healing exercise. And the nature of it makes it easy to get into and possibly
go too far.

Compare it to swimming, which is also seen as a recuperative exercise. But in
swimming, it is very difficult to accidentally over-exert yourself...you'll
get too tired. So the danger of someone who is completely out of shape going
too far is minimal. However, in yoga, it is very _easy_ to go too far because
just _entering_ or holding (what seemed easy to get into) the poses may
overstrain a muscle or joint.

And let's not discount the mindset of many yoga practitioners, novice and
expert. Swimming may be a healing sport, but it has the connotation of being a
_sport_. Yoga is seen as not just a physical activity, but as a way to connect
spiritually, be at inner peace, and not worry about competition (even if it
implicitly happens, as demonstrated in the article). So there is additional
danger is in the naive mindset of yoga practitioners...comparatively few
people go into long-distance running with the belief that it won't have impact
on their knees or back.

* Another way to look at it...speaking from personal experience...there is a high correlation between people who are really into yoga and people who are really into doing periodical "cleanses"...that is, diets in which they spend $200 (no exaggeration) for three days of juice-only servings. This may also be a peculiarity of living in Manhattan...yet I know of other athletes in the city who would never consider doing a juice-diet, or who believe in the "science" of cleanses.

The point is is that yoga attracts people who want a less rigorous way of
being healthy, and these people may not realize that yoga can be as damaging
as standard weightlifting.

~~~
chunky1994
As you rightly pointed out, Yoga attracts people who want a less rigorous way
of being healthy.

Ironically Yoga was created as one of the most disciplined arts and was hand
in glove with nerve-wrecking penance. That's what most people who want to do
yoga miss nowadays, they don't really know what it was _for_ , they just get
into it because it's easy, and that ends up being a big mistake because it was
made to _not_ be easy.

Also funnily enough, even if people practice yoga on their own, it was
developed with the inherent fail-safe of body pain in mind, so it wouldn't
harm them. However nowadays you have _expert_ teachers who push you beyond
your body's limits and that's truly dangerous.

So to sum up, if you want to get into Yoga, get a good book and do it on your
own. OR Make sure you find a really really good teacher and do a thorough
check before joining a class, and don't just enter into a Yoga program on a
whim.

Those are the only two ways I see to stay safe, and still benefit from
learning Yoga.

~~~
sbarre
Wow.. NO NO NO, DO NOT do it on your own at first. The second tip however,
find a good teacher is a MUST..

Doing yoga by yourself with no experience and just a book and no one to help
you understand proper alignment in your foundation poses at first is a great
way to hurt yourself at worst, or get nothing out of the effort at best.

~~~
chunky1994
Which is why I said get a _good_ book. As I said earlier Yoga was designed
with a fail-safe (although I cannot cite references right now). Unless you
just trudge through the discomfort in your body, you will not get hurt doing
it on your own.

~~~
sbarre
Sorry but this is false. Sensing pain can mean it's already too late and
damage is already occurring.

Would you learn to fly a plane from a book? "When you are upside down in a
flat spin, you may be in trouble"..

Get a good teacher who can guide you through the foundation alignments and do
hands-on adjustments when you are starting out. A book can certainly help but
it can't be your only guide.

~~~
mrtron
Yes, I would learn to fly a plane from a book.

Pain isn't necessarily a bad thing and doesn't necessarily mean 'damage is
already occurring'.

If you are remotely in touch with your own body and athletic you can teach
yourself yoga from books/youtube/podcasts. The best progress I had doing yoga
was when I was living in Taiwan and 90% of the class was in Mandarin (which I
don't speak). It caused me to focus more and listen to my body.

------
saalweachter
"The naturalistic fallacy", sometimes with a dash of "argument from
antiquity".

I think Yoga is more subject to this than some other forms of exercise, except
maybe running. When you're wobbling around on top of a bicycle or have
strapped yourself to a plank of wood on a mountain side, I hope something in
your head tells you you're doing something unnatural. But a lot of people tend
to take the line of argument that exercise is NATURAL is GOOD is SHUT UP.

Just because something is passed down through the ages or "natural" to humans
doesn't make it _good_. It just makes it _old_. Something being practiced for
hundreds or thousands (or in the case of running, hundreds of thousands) of
years may give something a baseline plausibility that makes it worth
investigating, but it itself is not scientific evidence.

Many people have run regularly over the years and most of them didn't
instantly burst into flames, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be conducting
long-term studies of the health benefits and risks of running at various
intensities. Just because yoga is considered "ancient wisdom" doesn't mean we
shouldn't test it rigorously and without preconceived notions of its efficacy
or inefficacy.

Science is the only way to distinguish ancient wisdom from ancient hogwash;
anecdotes and arguments only confirm pre-existing biases.

~~~
gnosis
_"Many people have run regularly over the years and most of them didn't
instantly burst into flames, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be conducting
long-term studies of the health benefits and risks of running at various
intensities."_

Who and where exactly is anyone arguing that _"we shouldn't be conducting
long-term studies of the health benefits and risks of running at various
intensities"_?

To your list of fallacies you should perhaps add the strawman argument.

 _"Just because yoga is considered "ancient wisdom" doesn't mean we shouldn't
test it rigorously and without preconceived notions of its efficacy or
inefficacy."_

Another strawman.

 _"Science is the only way to distinguish ancient wisdom from ancient hogwash;
anecdotes and arguments only confirm pre-existing biases."_

Is this a "scientifically proven claim"? Or is this just an expression of a
"pre-existing bias"?

~~~
pessimizer
Those are not strawmen, those are called examples. What he's saying is that
"naturalness" or "antiquity" does not mean that something shouldn't be tested.
For _example_ , running is obviously very natural and old, and that doesn't
mean that it shouldn't be tested.

So:

> _Who and where exactly is anyone arguing that_ "we shouldn't be conducting
> long-term studies of the health benefits and risks of running at various
> intensities" _?_

just reinforces his point, because it was meant to be a statement that
_everyone could easily agree with._

Pre-existing bias towards testing and researching in order to approach the
truth is a virtue, and to dismiss it while simultaneously attacking by
misusing the tools of reason and logic that are its fruits when it is
situationally convenient to you is both silly and entirely dishonest.

------
itmag
In the weight training community, yoga is seen as problematic because it
involves a lot of spinal flexion (ie bending the spine forward). This is seen
as a general no-no (which is why sit-ups are generally viewed as bad as well
today).

Stuart McGill is often quoted in these matters, as he has done extensive
studies on the mechanics of the spine.

[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-440309/Is-
Pilates-...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-440309/Is-Pilates-bad-
back.html)

[http://www.amazon.com/Back-Disorders-Second-Stuart-
McGill/dp...](http://www.amazon.com/Back-Disorders-Second-Stuart-
McGill/dp/0736066926)

[http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_trai...](http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_interviews/back_to_mcgill)

[http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_trai...](http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_interviews/mister_spine)

~~~
timr
I'm not an expert on Yoga by any means, but in all the classes I've taken (and
with the exception of the "relaxation" poses), the instructors have emphasized
maintaining a straight back. Spinal flexion hasn't been explicitly encouraged,
unless (perhaps) it was in the context of a forward fold, where the goal is to
relax the muscles of the back after some other strenuous exercise.

Also, reading through your links, the McGill fellow seems to have a fairly
nuanced position on core strength. It's not as simple as _"don't bend the
spine forward"_.

~~~
dugmartin
The "cobra pose" is done in the beginner class I go to but I skip it - my core
is still not strong enough to keep my lower back from getting hurt.

Instead I do the "sphinx pose" while I keep my lower abdominals pulled in:

Cobra pose - <http://www.yogajournal.com/poses/471>

Sphinx pose - <http://www.yogajournal.com/poses/2464>

~~~
rquantz
Those poses show spinal extension, not flexion. It may be the GP was using the
wrong word here. I've never seen a yoga class that focused on spinal flexion,
but there are a lot of poses that extend the spine, and if done wrong they can
cause injury. Most yoga teachers know this, though, and encourage students not
to over-extend, either by keeping abdominals active as you describe, or by
focusing the extension on the mid- and upper-back rather than the lumbar.

On an only slightly related note, why doesn't gecko spell checker recognize
flexion?

------
suprgeek
"How cycling can wreak your body" or "how exercise can wreak your body" may
not have the same catchiness to it but it is perfectly plausible headline.

Yoga needs to be done under expert supervision just like almost any activity
that puts your body thru a range of motions not encountered in daily life.

Having personally experienced both Indian and American Yoga lessons - there is
a fascinating aspect that comes up. In the US almost always the discussions
devolved into "I can master X pose for Y minutes without breaking a sweat"
type ego stroking - exactly like "I can do 20 reps at 100 Pounds" boasting in
a Gym. the whole mindset was Yoga was something that you had to master to beat
in some sense.

In India (personal anecdote) the yoga teacher always emphasized "FLOW" - how
smoothly can you transition between a set of fairly simple poses with maximum
awareness. It almost felt like a totally different thing compared to the US
style.

------
stiff
Most of the problems described have more to do with human nature then with
yoga in particular. If you are 100 pounds overweight and live a sedentary
lifestyle, then one day try to run a marathon just like that, there are high
chances you will get injured. This is a bit of a hyperbole, but for many
people going into sports is exactly this way, after years of inactivity there
is some sudden abrupt strike of enthusiasm (e. g. a new years resolution),
which leads people to apply too much intensity to a body that isn't prepared
for it, ultimately ending with an injury. I have seen plenty of examples of
this just among friends and relatives.

I haven't been in a yoga class and I am not a practitioner, but as far as I
know from secondary sources the kind of instruction one will receive in yoga
is in fact much wiser in this respect then in almost any other sport. Most of
books written about yoga I have seen are full of precautions about not rushing
things on yourself, starting with the simplest positions, going into the
positions very slowly, getting out of the position as soon as you experience
the slightest discomfort, warnings about not doing the inverted positions
without consulting a doctor and so on. I don't think the article does justice
to this. The example with the men kneeling each day for hours is especially
absurd and I fail to see what it has to do with yoga.

Of course I don't doubt some of the more unnatural positions might really be
doing more harm then good to the body even for experienced practicioners, the
set of yoga positions as far I understand was invented very long ago and there
is no reason it shouldn't be revised using modern knowledge of anatomy etc. I
just don't believe most people would experience any of the problems described
in the article if they actually followed the teachings, especially beginners
just looking to improve their health, who are advised to use really simple
positions and are in fact unable to perform the advanced ones according to the
principles outlined above.

~~~
snth
This article focuses on injuries sustained by experienced yoga practitioners
(even instructors). It's not about beginners moving too quickly.

~~~
zacharycohn
That is EXACTLY what it's about. Just because you're a Yoga teacher doesn't
mean you know what you're doing.

~~~
tibbon
Moreso, just because you know what you're doing or experienced doesn't mean
you should do it. Knowledge of how to stand on your head, and the wisdom of if
you should stand on your head are two different things.

Many instructors probably shouldn't do things that their students are doing.
Why? Because they might be teaching 3 classes that day, and the student is in
there three times a week.

------
dugmartin
I've been going to a yoga class once a week for the last nine months or so. I
guess I'm lucky that I have a very gentle instructor who repeats something
like this many times in each class: "let go of any preconceived notions and
judgments of what you should be doing and pay attention to yourself". I've
stopped looking around the room to see what others are doing and just try to
push myself a bit more each week. Its been slow but I think its paying off.

~~~
mike_h
Problem is, some limits are hard to detect until you've exceeded them; "listen
to your body" really must be augmented by details and rigor around safe
progressions through the practice (which, to complicate things, obviously vary
by individual).

~~~
Czarnian
Also, there are some limits that should not be exceeded, period. Like the
cases in the article where they exceeded the operating tolerances of the neck
and gave themselves strokes.

Yoga certifications really ought to include a basic anatomy and physiology
component.

------
akuchling
An author (who does yoga himself) on the Knight Science Journalism Tracker
argued that this story is sensationalized and somewhat unfair:
[http://ksjtracker.mit.edu/2012/01/05/ny-times-unfairly-
trash...](http://ksjtracker.mit.edu/2012/01/05/ny-times-unfairly-trashes-
yoga/)

~~~
chunky1994
Okay, so first off as a person who's had experience with an actual Himalayan
Yogi, most of what Black says is true. These Yoga classes are usually a
contracted form of what the Yogic monks practice and therefore if carried on
unchecked can be quite dangerous.

Yoga (for a first timer) starts of primarily with simple postures and more
importantly breathing, and there are absolutely NO difficult postures for at
least the first six months. Then he/she learns two new postures over a period
of two months and adds that to their usual routine, and this iterates.

So, in about two years the person should be in good physical shape. That is
how Yoga should be done. I'd recommend an immensely useful book on Hatha Yoga,
but I can't find the link. I shall add it as soon as I do.

Yoga is a quite like going to the gym, except you don't need a gym and it
affects your whole body within the same time, not just whatever body parts you
work out.

EDIT: Here's the link: [http://www.amazon.com/Hatha-Yoga-Manual-v-
Samskrti/dp/089389...](http://www.amazon.com/Hatha-Yoga-Manual-v-
Samskrti/dp/0893890820)

~~~
wollw
I spent about half of last year living at a Buddhist monastery and one of the
other people staying for part of that time was a yoga instructor who talked
about the same things. I've meditated for some years now and one of the main
things he had me pay attention to were the smooth transitions between poses
and quality of breath in particular. He seemed to agree with an observation I
made about it being much like breath meditation with movement added in.
Keeping a steady and concentrated mind with careful movements that flow
together with the breath were important to maintain and he only gave me a
handful of simple poses to work with, things like just raising and lowering
legs and turning my legs to the side. No fancy poses or anything. He talked
about the ignorance of many yoga instructors too and how dangerous it can be
if not taken slowly and with great care.

------
rs212
Ok, firstly, I am Indian too. I have been doing yoga for the past two decades.

At one point I wanted to take my yoga "to the next level", whatever that
meant. So I asked my teacher to teach me something more elaborate. She did (a
variant of shoulder-stand), and I got a back pain that lasted for two weeks.
From then on I have been sticking to my routine - two quick surya-namaskars,
followed by 8 simple postures. This is all I have done for the past 2 decades.
It makes me feel energetic during the day. I ask for no more.

If your job is sedentary/indoors, do a little yoga and see if it helps. Start
small, and stick with what is comfortable. There is no need to compete for
higher levels of achievement. If you feel good that's all that is important.

About Swami Vivekananda - I have read his complete works, it is an interesting
read, very inspiring (helped me through a bout of depression in my late
teens), and for history buffs, it offers some nice historical views of India,
Europe and the US at the end of the 19th century. Vivekananda was a
philosopher who explored the deep questions of life, and a social commentator
with a keen eye for detail.

So read his works by all means, but you don't need that to benefit from some
simple exercises.

------
sbarre
The article states something that a lot of us yoga practitioners already take
for granted:

"Yoga is for people in good physical condition."

If you're overweight and/or in poor physical condition, yoga is not for you,
at least not at first.

~~~
araneae
My mother is in great physical condition, and certainly not overweight, but
she still managed to destroy her shoulder doing yoga.

So while it's true that people in poor condition shouldn't do yoga, there are
still risks to people in good condition.

~~~
freehunter
This is a valid criticism of every exercise: done improperly, anyone can get
hurt... done properly, there is still a small chance of injury.

Exercise is important for everyone's health, but the fact remains that the
human body is poorly cobbled together and still not well-understood by
science. Do what you can to help yourself stay healthy, but there is never a
zero risk of critical failure.

~~~
Czarnian
The difference is that when I go to my regular trainer, he is very specific
about not letting me exceed my physical limits. He's also very conscientious
about making sure I know my physical limits so I don't hurt myself when he's
not around.

In a yoga class, the instructor can regularly instruct people to do things
that are inherently dangerous (even if they aren't painful.)

Pushing the risk onto the students is not particularly helpful. The student
has placed (or misplaced, depending) their trust in the instructor not to hurt
them. It's the instructors job to make sure they don't get hurt, including not
having them do inherently dangerous things.

You'd be surprised how much science understands about how the body works.

~~~
dlsspy
So you have a good trainer and a bad yoga teacher?

------
senthilnayagam
I studied in Kendriya Vidhyalaya(central school) and we used to have yoga
classes weekly.

my observations,

your body needs flexibility and it needs practice to loosen your body just
like warming up.

it is easier for kids to begin yoga as their bodies are already flexible.

based on your fitness, flexibility and comfort levels you can discover newer
levels of asanas, just like all those poses in Kamasutra.

let us be clear, yoga is for relaxing mind and body, not acrobatic displays as
it has been marketed in america

~~~
pelemele
let us be clear, yoga is for relaxing mind and body, not acrobatic displays as
it has been marketed in america.

Exactly.

------
noonespecial
Yoga can be harmful, but not as harmful as sitting on your couch all day, but
not as harmful as sitting on your couch all day and then thinking an hour of
magic postures will fix it.

------
_debug_
Well, exercise injury is an entire field of study, and hence the existence of
the profession of physiotherapy. Yoga is just one more way you can hurt
yourself and need a physiotherapist.

There was a great comment on the NYTimes article by someone called Stevi that
I would like to quote here, "Yoga doesn't wreck the body. People wreck their
bodies by practicing yoga with a lack of awareness and by taking classes from
instructors who don't have enough experience. Yoga is an ancient discipline--a
tool for self-realization. It's unfair to hold yoga responsible for our misuse
of it. Yoga involves an eight-fold path of which asana is only one tenant. If
you are practicing asana without without the other aspects of yoga such as
ahimsa (non-harm), santosha (contentment), aparigraha (non-greed), etc., then
you are destined for problems. Find a good teacher, and yoga is the greatest
gift."

------
blrgeek
Yes, Yoga practiced incorrectly can screw your body. Even the breathing
exercises if done incorrectly can screw your body. Tip: Do NOT practice Yoga
from a book.

A close friend of mine started breathing exercises & yoga from a book. He's
been doing some forms of these for many years, and this was the first time he
was doing them from a book, and doing newer things.

He did or overdid something, and some balance in his body was disturbed. His
weight dropped from 85kg to 54kg within a couple of months, becoming almost
literally skin and bones.

He had to go for some intensive treatment to get his body back in line.

And this is a guy who I've known personally for 8 years now - not an anecdote
I've heard.

So stick to the basic exercises, don't tie yourself up in knots, don't do any
crazy breathing exercises, and certainly don't over do anything.

------
carlsednaoui
Makes total sense.

The reason Yoga was invented (if I'm not mistaken) was to allow Yogis to
meditate for long periods of time - often hours or days. In essence, Yoga was
used to ensure that your body could stay still for long periods of time.

It feels that people here in the West use Yoga as a "workout". Which is kind
of crazy since, in my opinion, you're supposed to do Yoga to be in tune with
yourself, bring awareness to your body and calm your mind (with the ultimate
goal of being able to meditate).

Whenever I go to a Yoga class I personally prefer to stay in the back and do
the poses at my own pace, and only focus on those where I feel comfortable -
if a pose is stopping me from breathing properly I know that something is
wrong.

------
lnanek
I do contemporary US fitness oriented yoga quite often. It isn't my first
choice for a sport, personally, but it works great as a compromise when I'm
with my parents, their friends, or with girls. I'd rather do something other
than my first choice if it can include more of the people I'm trying to
socialize with at the time.

Anyway, for some reason, I look like I'm really struggling when I do it. My
arms shake, etc.. This despite being able to run 14 miles throwing myself
forward each step, do 30 pull-ups in a row, 100 sit-ups, etc.. Seeing me
seemingly suffer, the yoga instructors are constantly telling me things: just
do the poses that are within your practice, focus on your breathing and
relaxing and not copying the poses, go into an easy child's pose or down dog
pose whenever you feel things are too much, don't muscle yourself into a pose,
do a few more sun salutations to warm and loosen your body before continuing,
do you have any injuries I should be aware of, here is a modified pose that is
easier, here is a pose to increase your upper body strength before doing
inversions, etc..

Long story short, most people seem to try really hard to copy poses and force
their body. That's apparently not the way to do it and teachers try hard to
make that clear. I've never been injured, but I imagine it is much less likely
doing it their way, which focuses on relaxation and breath.

------
kamaal
Ok, firstly. I am an Indian.

What is wrong with Yoga? Answer : Wrong question!

The right question is, What is wrong with our understand of Yoga?

As per most people and if you ask them, they would reply Yoga means twisting,
bending and turning your body in crazy ways to heal/medicinal use. Nothing
would be further from the truth. Unfortunately things have come down to a
level where people only give ritualistic definition of Yoga! Yoga also has
many branches.

To understand Yoga in its essence I would advice you to read Swami
Vivekananda's complete works.

I practice Yoga. Yoga is not a 2 hour exercise session. Yoga is a way of life.
I practice Yoga, Its a branch of Yoga called Karma Yoga! So what does Karma
Yoga mean? Its exemplified from a verse in Gita:

 _You have power to your actions only, not its outcome. Act therefore forth
right without succumbing to inaction_

This is to dedicate yourself towards a goal, consciously iterating and
eliminating your faults in moments of self reflection improvising and not
giving up until you reach your goal.

This is easier said than done! The key here is self reflection. I felt that
David Allen's Getting things done took me to a better enabler to following
Karma Yoga! I started following these techniques since last February.

I started taking one day a time, trying to most productive in a day.
Eliminating distraction. And working towards a larger goal. The results have
been astounding to me.

Karma Yoga! for westerners can be explain by a poem by Rudyard Kipling -
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If%E2%80%94>

\---

If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it
on you; If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you, But make allowance
for their doubting too: If you can wait and not be tired by waiting, Or being
lied about, don’t deal in lies, Or being hated don’t give way to hating, And
yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise;

If you can dream—and not make dreams your master; If you can think—and not
make thoughts your aim, If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster And treat
those two impostors just the same: If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve
spoken Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools, Or watch the things you
gave your life to, broken, And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools;

If you can make one heap of all your winnings And risk it on one turn of
pitch-and-toss, And lose, and start again at your beginnings And never breathe
a word about your loss: If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew To
serve your turn long after they are gone, And so hold on when there is nothing
in you Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, Or walk with Kings—nor lose
the common touch, If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you, If all men
count with you, but none too much: If you can fill the unforgiving minute With
sixty seconds’ worth of distance run, Yours is the Earth and everything that’s
in it, And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!

\---

There are also other forms of Yoga! My mother practices Pranayama. Which is
basically meditation and breathing practices.

You also need a good teacher. Who knows Yoga! Else you will end up making
mistakes which can be dangerous.

Yoga is a way of life. Stop thinking it in terms of gym sessions.

Ultimate aim of Yoga is to make you bring you to a state of self
actualization. Like what Buddha was! And healthy body plays a important role
in that. So Yoga helps you build that too. But people tend to understand Yoga
only as some form of medical exercises.

~~~
dxbydt
It is quite unfortunate that OP is getting upvoted. He has hijacked the
discussion by completely redefining yoga. Yoga might have meant all those
spiritual aspects you've outlined, but as practised here in the USA and even
in India, none of those aspects are even remotely brought to bear. I have been
taught yoga formally in India both as a kid ( in most CBSE middle schools, you
are auto-enrolled in 1 hour of yoga per week ) and as an adult. Swami
Vivekananda was mentioned not even in passing.

> To understand Yoga in its essence I would advice you to read Swami
> Vivekananda's complete works.

Yeah and likewise to understand Computer Scienmce in its essence I would
advice you to read D.E. Knuth's complete works and not profess to know any CS
until you memorize each and every algorithm in TAOCP! You see how ridiculous
that sounds ? That's the whole problem. Yoga a few centuries ago might have
meant what you said, but as practised today, in the here and now, simply means
acrobatic gym sessions with contortions paid for by your montly paycheck. Its
unfortunate, but that's what it is.

Bringing in Kipling into this discussion is hugely ironic considering how much
of a royal prick he was in his attitude towards Indians ( Kipling's
transparently racist portrayals of Indian characters in Kim and Gunga Din,
among others )

The Times article is about genuine medical risks posed by spinal twists and
headstands, which are, unfortunately becoming more and more commonplace as
sedentary officegoers frequent yoga studios to add some yoga to their fitness
regimen. None of those people are remotely interested in karmayoga or
nyanayoga - they just want to learn the asanas.

Asanas minus Yoga is not yoga.

But that's the reality of today. Learning shirasasana without learning its
spiritual yogic root is akin to calling yourself a programmer and not knowing
what a red-black tree is. But guess what, most programmers today don't know
what a red-black tree is. That's sad, but its also a reality and we have to
deal with reality as it exists, not based on Kipling's delusional rants. There
are hundreds of actual people with actual broken ribs who desperately want to
learn matsyasana and don't give a flying f--- who gautama buddha or
ramakrishna paramahamsa or swami vivekananda was. That's just the way it is.

~~~
senthil_rajasek
>Bringing in Kipling into this discussion is hugely ironic >considering how
much of a royal prick he was in his attitude towards Indians ( Kipling's
transparently racist portrayals of Indian characters in Kim and Gunga Din,
among others )

If you consider Rudyard Kipling's characterization as racist then perhaps you
are missing a few subtleties and humanizing nature of such character
portrayals. I am from India and I do not consider Kipling's characterization
as racist but rather a dig at the ills of society that existed during the
British rule similar to Mark Twain's characterization of Native Americans and
African Americans in the pre-civil war American south.

------
tripzilch
I think this is mainly a USA thing. I've practiced Yoga for years in the
Netherlands, and if anything, it is about _not_ straining yourself, or if you
do stretch something, to only stretch it when you can be completely feeling
and aware of the thing you're stretching. You need that awareness _first and
foremost_ , and then the posture.

It's incredibly hard, nearly impossible, to feel and be aware in a body part
when it's in pain from overstretching or tension. Consciousness doesn't like
to go there, as long as the nerves are occupied with sending pain signals,
they're not doing much feeling. If you ignore or block the pain you're not
being aware, but if you do, the pain is "louder" than anything else, so you're
still not getting much.

It's stupid and useless. The goal should be the awareness, so you're _much_
better off doing simple postures, or simplified versions of complex postures,
or just see how far you can go while still being comfortable and _aware_.

If you practice it this way, you'll know when you're going too far, because
your awareness will fade (you'll often just realize it in hindsight, though,
in the moment, you're not aware that you're not aware, just like Dunning-
Kruger) and if you don't, that's what the teacher is for. S/he will pay
attention to the students and notice when they're more involved with doing a
posture than with paying attention to what all there is to feel inside their
bodies.

I just can't get my head around this, to get all the benefits of Yoga, you can
just stick to the simplest postures _and do them a lot_ (unless you're injured
in which case you do them even simpler, the Sawasana is just lying down flat
on your back, so there's always that one). If you try postures that are too
complicated or straining for your body-flexibility, you'll get nothing! Except
injury! It's just stupid, these supposed "experienced" Yoga practitioners,
"advancing" to more and more complicated postures, I suppose every time they
feel "comfortable" in some posture they move on to something new! They're
missing the whole point! Feeling comfortable? _Good._ Everything you did
before was not Yoga, but warming-up and stretch exercises. It's Yoga when you
can relax in a posture, without strain, without pain. And if there's some
posture for which that seems impossible to you, do a different one. It's okay,
they're not "better" than the ones you're comfortable in.

------
jonstjohn
I practiced yoga for several years on a very regular basis. Although I
personally did not experience any significant injury, I can really understand
how people can get caught up in pushing their body beyond its means, even
through pain. Despite the fact that teachers often emphasize staying within
your ability and focusing on your own practice, the ego often creeps in.
Either between students or even w/i yourself, struggling to further 'perfect'
a pose or match what you did last week, is too easy to fall into.

I think it is probably similar to other pursuits, whether it be running,
weight lifting, or swimming. It's easy to over do it, and you have to keep
your ego in check.

Yoga is an amazing practice with a lot of benefits. The take away that I get
from this is to not assume that yoga is always harmless, and to check your ego
at the door and really pay attention to your body. Sometimes easier said than
done (especially as I currently nurse a knee injury from a long run last week,
which I really knew I shouldn't have done, but badly wanted).

------
danbmil99
I've done yoga with an excellent teacher for years and never had a problem.
One day with a substitute was all it took to put my upper vertebrae in a bad
state for two years.

There is wide variation in teacher knowledge and experience. Maybe they should
be licensed, or, if you prefer the libertarian approach, caveat emptor.

BTW I am in my 50's, most of the class was 40+ yrs old

~~~
danbmil99
On further consideration, I think yoga is best thought of as a sport, rather
than a therapy. You risk injury in all sport activities, but you decide it's
worth it, not just for the physical benefits but because you enjoy the
challenge, it makes you feel good about yourself. Yoga definitely gives
benefits that are more than physical, and like almost any physical activity,
you have to understand the risks, and especially be very aware of your level
of competence to avoid pushing your risk profile dangerously high. The teacher
is really a trainer, and should be competent enough not to have you do
something that will hurt you. This is hard in a big class; the best teachers
constantly remind you to listen to your body, and be aware of your limits.

It should definitely not be used as a replacement for physical therapy, though
it can help with general problems such as joint and back stiffness and mild
pain.

------
md1515
My takeaway from the article is that yoga, like any other physical activity,
can be dangerous when one does not know how to do it properly, but more
importantly, has too large an ego to know when to quit/pause.

I've been doing yoga for only a little over a month, but I go at my own pace
at home. I'm not in a class where I force myself to "keep up" or whatnot.

------
netmau5
Trust yourself. In most forms of physical activity, if you are uncomfortable
doing it, there is probably damage being done. But that doesn't mean damage
isn't a good thing. In weight training, you purposely push yourself to the
edge to break down your muscles and build them back stronger. The edge is an
undecipherable gray for most novices so don't travel anywhere close without
the advice of a trusted advisor. I learned that lesson the hard way when I
first started lifting, "push as hard as I can to see the best results."

An experienced advisor makes all the difference in the world. Some things in
life just never change: from startups to fitness, seek wisdom for great
justice.

------
InclinedPlane
Yes, you can hurt yourself doing Yoga. More so if you do it incorrectly.

See also: running, weight lifting, swimming, biking, walking.

You can also hurt yourself while doing nothing.

Should that mean you should stop doing yoga? No, you should just be careful.

------
api
It's just like any other form of exercise: do what you can do, and be careful.
Some types of Yoga can be quite heavy, almost like heavy weight lifting, and
similar caveats apply.

------
GigabyteCoin
I don't doubt you can get hurt badly in a Yoga class and I never have.

That's why I only generally attend the less intense classes. I know I'm not
lance armstrong.

My girlfriend manages a studio and has seen her share of nasty injuries from
exactly what this article warns about: "Now urbanites who sit in chairs all
day walk into a studio a couple of times a week and strain to twist themselves
into ever-more-difficult postures despite their lack of flexibility and other
physical problems..."

------
barnaby
Interesting that Yoga is marketed heavily for people who sit in front of a
computer for hours a day, even though the article points out that it's more
dangerous for them because they're not already exercising the way that the
people for whom yoga was invented for did.

------
Shenglong
I think it's worth pointing out that physical yoga, much like any sort of
physical exercise, can damage the body. Yet, if you're young and in good
physical condition, it can strengthen your body a lot. The article has a
strong point: lots of people shouldn't be doing these intense exercises.

I took three months to train in Shaolin Kung Fu, near the Shaolin Temple in
China about two years back. I trained for 7-9 hours a day, 6 days a week. I
ate over 5,000 calories a day, and ended up losing 16 pounds by the end (and I
was decently fit to begin with).

The stretching was intense and almost made me cry, I cut myself with swords,
bruised myself with meteor hammers, and even lashed my own flesh with whips
(by mistake, of course). Yet, I easily doubled my explosive strength,
multiplied my endurance by fifteen times, and even managed to learn to throw a
sewing needle through glass.

Everything has a downside if you do it wrong, but you're not _supposed_ to do
it wrong.

------
rokhayakebe
This applies to people who lift weights too. "I bench 7564550969 pounds.
You?". Ego.

------
deepkut
"With power comes great responsibility." Yoga is powerful, use it wisely.

------
rohitarondekar
Doesn't this apply to any form of exercise though?

------
kamakazizuru
It's sensationalized headlines like this that ruin something that is
inherently good but has been bastardized by peoples needs to be super good at
everything they do!

Yoga will not wreck your body - doing it wrongly will. Just like driving drunk
can get you killed - doing yoga without understanding it - and knowing what
your bodys own limits are will get you killed too.

Anything powerful is always double edged. The author in fact highlights
example that prove just that - people who overdo their yoga (the kid who sat
in a pose praying for world peace for days) - or jump into it to quickly
without any checks or training (the guy who popped his ribs) will definitely
wreck themselves.

BUT - so will first time swimmers who decide to try swim across the english
channel. Or amateur weightlifters who decide to benchpress twice their
bodyweight on the first go. Putting out an article like this just scares
people off from something that is inherently good - rather than making them
more aware of the fact that its good - but ONLY if used correctly.

I started yoga in India as a kid. The ashram I went to is in Bombay and I was
not allowed to start anything without a certificate from a doctor saying I was
physically sound - the ashram itself also had a doctor at hand who did yet
another check - specific to yoga and had me fill out a full medical history.
Based on this history the doctor selected very basic exercises and marked them
out in a little book that I was provided. The trainer had me do just those
exercises (relaxation exercises, simple leg raises and basic stretches) for
almost a month - before I could do them without any trouble - before he moved
on to slightly more challenging positions, also again with the approval of the
inhouse doctor. Those years of yoga helped me tremendously to overcome some
health issues I had - and I am sure there are plenty more out there who's
lives have been enriched by yoga.

This is how yoga should be done - and was done through the years - there were
people who knew what it was about and had practiced for decades before they
started teaching others.

However, as is typical to the consumerization of anything in this world -
people try to industrialize things and take short cuts to make a quick buck.
We have fancy sounding forms of yoga like hot yoga or power yoga that try to
create the fad of the season. Folks do a few months of training in yoga and
become "instructors" and charge money to train people in exercises that they
really should not be training.

I'd rephrase that article - and say that yoga is great and if done correctly
can actually save lives (especially in the overstressed obese and sedentary
societies we live in these days). However being the powerful skill that it is
- it must be handled with care by people trained and experienced.

TL;DR - Yoga is not bad, people who are doing too much too fast or "teaching"
new fancy forms of yoga with no real sound backing are ruining the experience
for over enthusiastic beginners who dont get that it has to be taken slow. Do
yoga its good for you - but make sure someone who knows what your conditions
are and what yoga is all about is teaching you!

------
adrianwaj
tl;dr

Do you do Yoga?

I do the asanas.

Do you attain enlightenment?

I attain injuries.

------
hackermom
I'm now eagerly awaiting NY Times' revelational "why jogging or any other
physical activity can hurt you if you are not in adequate physical condition
for it" article.

~~~
jon_dahl
Exactly. Other things that can wreck your body: running, weight lifting,
competitive sports, and failing to do any of these things.

------
ahoyhere
I've attended quite a lot of yoga classes in different parts of the country,
and none of them have included any kind of inversion -- no head stands,
shoulder stands, or "bridge" (aka wheel). For that matter, none have included
the leg extension done by the guy in the green shirt, either.

This article is both factual and sensationalist at the same time.

~~~
drumdance
I've done that leg etension pose in Bikram yoga. I liked the challenge of
Bikram, but it definitely was bad for my back so I stopped going.

------
georgieporgie
This article is inflammatory and poorly written. 20 million practice in the US
but a handful of anecdotes and second-hand claims of injury are mentioned?
Sounds like good odd to me.

How many are injured by ego, ignorance, or bad advice in gyms, on tracks and
fields, or in pools every day? Lose the ego and be selective about your coach.

