

Why I Write Books Even Though I’ve Lost Money on Every Book I’ve Written - processing
http://www.jamesaltucher.com/2011/02/why-i-write-books-even-though-ive-lost-money-on-every-book-ive-written/

======
gwern
> He called me back one time. We had known each other forever but had never
> had an issue where someone didn’t want one of my books. So now I saw what
> happened when someone didn’t want one of my books. “If you are going to tell
> me how to do my job,” he said, “this relationship is over.” I mumbled an
> apology and he hung up.

When I first read this, it seemed to me that the agent is at fault. If every
editor rejected the proposal, _shouldn't he find out why?_

> So I wrote an email to Hollis and explained why the book would be good for
> her. She agreed to meet me. She said to me, “this proposal seems like it was
> written by wikipedia. You need to give us a real methodology for what to do
> when the end of the world hits.”

So our author had to do the agent's work for him?

~~~
apotheon
Yeah -- that moment and the moment at the very end where he found his happy
ending were the only two moments in the whole thing where I felt any sympathy
for the author at all.

The rest of the time, where he wrote crappy books he knew were crappy,
alienated editors, and contemplated insurance fraud plus suicide in one swell
foop, all whilst capitalizing on others' credulity to sell them financial
advice when his own finances have run like a yo-yo, he came off like a
complete ass.

Congratulations to Altucher for writing in such an engaging, and hypnotically,
brutally honest style that I felt compelled to read all the way through,
despite the fact he induced me to distantly hate him through about 98% of the
tale.

~~~
geoffw8
Some people on HN are dicks sometimes. You weren't asked to judge him, I don't
even think he wanted your sympathy. Read and enjoy, take what you need to take
from it, and leave the rest.

One of my key takeaways was that he's since come a long way, are your feelings
aimed at him 10 years ago? Doesn't read like that. I for one enjoyed it, and
look forwards to the next installment landing in my inbox.

Genuinely, I don't understand how or why someone would read that post, and
think to write the words you wrote. Full-circle: you came off like an ass.

~~~
apotheon
When did I say that he wanted my sympathy? I explained something, from my
point of view, about the character of the tale -- which is pretty much what
_everyone_ else here is doing, when not just asking questions. Are you such a
fan of the man that you cannot accept that? Am I not allowed to engage in
discussion here just because my opinion of how he came off in the story
differs from yours?

> Full-circle: you came off like an ass.

Fair enough. Maybe it looks that way to you. Too bad for me.

Your "sit down and shut up" routine makes you look a bit worse than merely
abrasive judgment of his self-portrayal, though -- at least in my opinion.

~~~
geoffw8
My routine isn't sit down shut up (Did you just assume that?)

I just think you said something that didn't need to be said. The second piece,
"how he came off in the story" is almost my exact point: I don't really see
how your opinion on how he came off is valuable, unless your really going to
delve into some psychological reasoning, use an anecdote or note a similar
example - which you didn't. HN is for intelligent discussion i.e. value, not
how you thought the guy came off.

Maybe if you'd have made a REAL comment, i.e. "hey, seems like a bumpy ride
but it sure does seem like persistence prevails. [enter your comment here]"
then it would have been fine.

But as it was, you just attacked him personally based on what you read in that
post. Maybe its just a lesson in looking at things from other peoples
perspectives, I'm sure I wasn't the only one who thought what I thought.

------
littledanehren
I don't get it. He was spending $40,000/month on his living expenses while
being afraid that he wouldn't be able to afford diapers and food for his baby?
How was this guy running his life so wrong? Did it somehow cost him that much
to maintain his unsellable house in the financial district of New York? Are we
supposed to feel sympathy for him?

~~~
panacea
EDIT: I've deleted my comment and my other replies to this discussion. As
irrational as it is, my silly e-psyche recognizes it's easy to hit the delete
button rather than watch my opinion down-arrowed.

~~~
apotheon
Maybe he should. I write for a publisher whose offices are more than a
thousand miles away from me. We have this nifty thing called the Internet now,
and postal mail works even when you don't live in the same city anyway (postal
mail being how most book proposals and manuscripts are delivered when they are
not sent digitally). Even if you have to fly halfway across the country twice
a year for meetings, which is more often than many people would have to
actually meet face-to-face with editors at publishers (judging by my limited
experience at least), it costs less than sweet digs in the financial district
of one of the most expensive cities in the world.

~~~
panacea
"We have this nifty thing called the Internet now"

I accept your criticism of my comment (in support of living in areas beyond
your means), but that's unnecessarily snarky, sir.

~~~
apotheon
Nothing personal. It was meant to be merely "flippant", and not so much
"snarky".

------
pamelafox
Make sure you read that article until the very last paragraph. It has a heart-
warming ending. I awwww'ed. :)

~~~
glaucon
Better still read the last paragraph first .... you may save yourself five
minutes of reading.

I'm at a complete loss as to why this artice is on the front page - to say
that I didn't learn much from it is an understatement of some magnitude.

~~~
electromagnetic
> Better still read the last paragraph first .... you may save yourself five
> minutes of reading.

Started reading, realized it wasn't worth my bacon, check the comments, found
yours and read the only meaningful thing I could deduce from the article.

------
coryl
Just an observation on the first bit:

Wow, kind of concerning how money centric some people are. He would rather
kill himself to leave his family money, than try to raise his family poor? I
don't have kids so I don't know. Is this a realistic thought for any of you?
Would you commit suicide in lieu of being a failure, to try and leave
something for your kids? Is that making the best out of a bad situation?

------
sriramk
Writing a book (my O'Reilly book) was the hardest thing I've ever done. It
took me a year and I can't count the number of days I just sat in front of a
blank screen just willing myself to write something (and usually failing).

All that was worth it when I first got to walk into a bookstore and see my
book on the bookshelves. :)

~~~
apotheon
On that subject . . .

Have you worked with any competing platforms, or is Azure pretty much the
platform you know? I'm just curious about your thoughts on Azure from a
comparative, rather than strictly technical in-a-vacuum, perspective.

~~~
sriramk
It is impossible to be good at any technical niche if you don't know the nitty
gritties of every other option out there. I just happen to talk about Windows
Azure a lot because that's what I work on :).

~~~
apotheon
Would you mind giving me a quick, thousand-foot view of your thoughts on the
various options, relative to each other, then? I must admit to knowing little
more about Azure than the simple fact of its existence (in part by having seen
your book on the shelf at Barnes & Noble), and I am afflicted by idle
curiosity.

~~~
sriramk
That really depends on what your application is, what your constraints and
priorities are and what your appetite for risk is. The discussion I have with
a large NY financial services company is very different from the one I have
with a 2 person YC startup. There are many, many ways to slice up your
options.

I'll be happy to help (my email address is in my profile) but remember that
I'm not unbiased - I work on one of those options :)

------
araneae
If you're _losing_ money on your books you're doing it wrong. With self-
publishing companies like lulu.com and the negligible costs of selling e-books
on the Nook there's no reason to have negative costs

... unless you're so caught up in image that you're willing pay money for the
fake "prestige" of having a "real" publisher.

~~~
apotheon
As a throw-away statement, he referred to the fact that losing money on his
books factors in the time he spent (and, presumably, the money he could have
made doing other things). I'm not sure I buy that means of estimation, given
the way he also informed his readers of his tendency to get himself into
crushing debt and nigh-homelessness even when he wasn't writing, but if you
accept his premise that his time could have been more (directly) lucratively
spent, he does in fact kinda-sorta "lose" money through the writing process
itself, regardless of what it costs to publish.

~~~
conesus
Sure, but opportunity cost is not a line item on a budget.

~~~
apotheon
I didn't say it was. I said that was his point.

------
ShabbyDoo
As James is participating on this thread, I will simply ask this question
rather than speculate: How many good things have come as a result of the
credibility being a "published author" has given you?

~~~
jaltucher
Great question. There's definitely been some good thats come of it. Let me
think for a bit and respond. Probably in a blog post.

------
allwein
You know, I started investing heavily in the stock market around the time that
"Forever Portfolio" came out in late 2008. By not being frightened about the
current economic turmoil and actually investing with a long-term outlook, I'm
sitting pretty damn good now 2.5 years later.

------
stevejohnson
"...I eeked out my $40,000 a month..."

OH NOOOOOOOOO

(I write insightful comments so that I may also write cathartic ones like
this. Vote however you like.)

Edit: This comment was ill-conceived in every way possible.

~~~
il
I'm probably going to get downvoted for saying this, but putting "vote however
you like" or "I expect downvotes for this" or "I know this isn't going to get
upvotes" in a comment almost guarantees your comment lots of upvotes. It's
almost as if when you say you expect people to downvote you their instinctive
reaction is "Don't tell me what to think!" and they do the opposite.

EDIT: Apparently implying a parent comment is pandering for karma is an
equally rapid way to get it downvoted. Please don't downvote the parent
comment because of this one- I actually found it quite witty.

~~~
stevejohnson
This comes up almost every time someone does what I just did. You're right
about the Voting-Based Social Media Site Psychology of it, but I think we've
covered it enough that it doesn't need to be said.

I do regret adding that to the end. I really didn't mean to influence the
votes. Now, of course, I can't remove it without eliminating the context for
our discussion.

Edit for more meta: Apparently I am now That Guy In The Thread Whose Comments
Are All Downvoted Regardless of Contribution to the Discussion. I am also That
Guy Who Left A Stupid Reddit-Style Comment, That Guy Who Is Spending To Much
Time in the Thread, and That Guy Who Thinks Hacker News is Going Downhill.
Time for a sandwich.

~~~
il
I don't mean to come across as criticizing you for that comment in any way!
Seriously, I think it's a fine and well placed comment! (Plus HN is always
more mellow on Sundays).

I'm just incredibly interested in crowd psychology and mass control, and
pointing this out as an effective tactic.

------
GiraffeNecktie
I'm not surprised noone bought his books. Trade Like a Hedge Fund is $35.08 on
Kindle. People will always opt for the $9 book (even if they think the book
that's $25 more expensive will make them more money)

~~~
jaltucher
You know, thats just not true for finance books. Trade Like a hedge fund was
$70 when it first came out and sold more than all of my other books combined.

~~~
GiraffeNecktie
Oh really? Look at the best-selling investing books on Amazon.
[http://www.amazon.com/Investing-Business-
Books/b/ref=bw_ab_3...](http://www.amazon.com/Investing-Business-
Books/b/ref=bw_ab_3_8?ie=UTF8&node=2665&pf_rd_p=236877501&pf_rd_s=browse&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_i=3&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1DKJKB467RJ1VZGDPART)

~~~
jaltucher
I'm just telling you the facts on my books. My most expensive one was the one
that sold the best. For high-end finance books price-point doesn't matter as
much (one successful trade makes up for it, 100x).

------
andrewtbham
the new book seems likely to be another case of bad timing... the apocalypse
seems to be over, at least on wall street.

------
Charuru
I feel like you could've made yourself sound a lot more sympathetic than you
actually did. You come across as an asshole?

~~~
stevejohnson
I think you mean "worthy of sympathy." And while I agree with you, I wish you
would provide examples to back up your assertion.

I came to my opinion by observing that he spent most of the article
cataloguing his unsuccessful writing career, and then brings in a one-
paragraph love story out of absolutely nowhere.

~~~
apotheon
Contemplating suicide plus insurance fraud in a single act without talking
about the background for why he would have thought this was a good idea is not
well-calculated to induce sympathy.

Foisting books he thought sucked onto editors while scamming them for ever-
larger advances by bushwhacking them with out-of-nowhere agents is not well-
calculated to induce sympathy.

Talking about how he lies to people about his career -- especially when
casting the reader directly in the hypothetical role of wronged target of
these lies -- is not well-calculated to induce sympathy.

Writing a book about how to claw your way to riches as a means to make money
off credulous readers to forestall your own bankruptcy (and/or suicide) is not
well-calculated to induce sympathy.

Acts of desperation redolent of co-dependent personal issues, such as writing
strident appeals to the most vulnerable people on the insides of one's books
in the hopes of essentially tricking people into buying them, is not well-
calculated to induce sympathy.

He paints himself as an asshole and a fuck-up who lucked out despite his best
efforts to make a lot of money (off and on) and uses that to get people to
listen to him. It's certainly not the most sympathetic picture he could have
painted of himself.

Also . . . whether the previous person meant "sympathetic" or "worthy of
sympathy", it is entirely reasonable -- and in the context of literary
criticism (formal or otherwise), quite common -- to refer to a "sympathetic
character", which is exactly what Altucher is _not_ by his own presentation
other than once probably by accident, and another time at the end quite
surprisingly. This is because "sympathy" is not the same thing as "empathy",
though many think it is.

From the American Heritage Dictionary, third definition of "sympathetic":

> Agreeably suited to one's disposition or mood; congenial: sympathetic
> surroundings.

Other definitions hint at the idea as well. That idea is, simply put, that
there is a sense of connection and sameness between subject and object. Even
those who are not much different from Altucher in all the myriad ways he
presents himself poorly are likely to feel his is an unsympathetic character,
if only because they would not want to admit to themselves the same depths two
which they have descended. If it were not for the engaging style with which he
beats the crap out of his own image, I suspect almost nobody would read all
the way through such a painful litany of character flaws as he presents.

It helps that he ended it when he did. If it went on for another half-dozen
paragraphs, I might have gotten sick of it, engaging style or otherwise.

~~~
jaltucher
\- never contemplated insurance fraud. not sure where in story you got that.
\- i never foisted a book i thought sucked onto editors. i liked all my books
and the only one i dont like right now is Supercash. \- i never lied to anyone
about my career. not sure where you got that. \- i never needed to write a
book to forestall bankruptcy. i was already well-recovered. please read the
story.

I dont think you really read the article. but maybe i did paint myself as a
"fuck-up".

~~~
danhak
You explicitly talked about contemplating ways to make your suicide look
accidental as to allow your family to collect the insurance benefits. i.e.
insurance fraud.

~~~
jaltucher
no , i did not. most insurance policies actually allow for suicide after a
year. The real reason for making it look accidental is for effect on
daughters. its an insane way to look at it (any discussion of suicide is
insane but this was 10 years ago) but thats the way it was.

~~~
delackner
Normally I would not reply to anything in this whole thread because people are
saying a lot of rather harsh things to you. But it may help to know that your
perspective on how you wrote the text is clouding how the text actually reads
to someone who is not in your own skull.

I don't know a single person who actually has a life insurance policy, but
movies have taught us (rightly or wrongly) that people who buy life insurance
policies and then talk about killing themselves to make it look like an
accident, these people are trying to do so specifically because, in movie-
plot-reality, and who knows, maybe in some actual contracts, suicide would not
be covered.

The appropriate response here is to say "gosh I didn't think of that, you're
right, people are likely to get the wrong idea since I didn't say WHY I was
thinking about making it look like an accident." Simply saying "no no you're
wrong, I never said anything like that" is fighting with the reality that what
you think about what you say has little bearing on the most natural way that
other people are going to perceive what you say.

~~~
apotheon
. . . and while I do not currently have a life insurance policy, I did at one
time -- and the exception for suicide never went away on that policy.

