
Scratch that: Cats film to be 'resupplied' with 'improved visuals' - cpeterso
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2019/dec/23/cats-film-resupplied-improved-visuals
======
bo1024
This could end up being a really interesting precedent in film (not in a way I
like, personally). akersten writes farther down:

> _We 're going to wind up in some terrible place where if you pre-order your
> movie ticket you can see the Target special edition of Avengers Endgame 8
> that is only available in theaters for two weeks before it switches to some
> other version. Maybe we'll get to the point where movie theaters will just
> perpetually have the same film on roll and update it every couple of months
> with the latest patches like an MMO. Remember, your Avengers and Superman
> subscriptions are different._

Not sure about the last one, but you could imagine lots of possibilities:

\- Regional versions of films with anything from chunks of dialog ("I'm from
X") up through entire cityscape backgrounds changed depending on the theater
location. With CG, even things like character appearance (e.g. race) could be
regional.

\- Brand placement: Top sponsor's products appear in the first two weeks of
showings, then second bidder for the next two weeks, etc.

\- A/B testing different versions of films with live audiences and tweaking.

\- The opposite of what akersten said: introduce new little easter eggs or
features regularly over the course of the film's theater run to encourage
repeat ticket buying from the hardcore fans.

What else?

~~~
mroche
> This could end up being a really interesting precedent in film

The problem is that this doesn’t play out well at all and isn’t sustainable
for the production houses actually working on the film. VFX work on a film can
finish months, and few weeks, of days before a release date. As soon as that
deadline is hit, workers either: go on break, get reallocated to another show,
or leave as their contract is up (non-contract artists are very few in this
industry). Having to pull people that worked on a show back to fixes after
being put on a new one, or they may be completely gone, will only damage the
show they are currently working on.

It’s not a practice that is sustainable, and with the pretty thin margins of
VFX right now isn’t something that is as simple to solve as keep people around
or hire more. And most studios can’t follow MPC/Technicolor’s philosophy of
throwing as many junior bodies at the task.

~~~
Corrado
I think you're discounting the possibility that this can be (at least
partially) automated. Specifically things like changing sponsor logos or
animation models. I can envision tools that allow a sign in a store front to
change from "Coke" to "Pepsi" automatically, or even replace that Audi car the
hero is driving to a Mercedes.

Of course, not everything could be automated but I think a good portion of it
could be. The original VFX team would just have to insert "markers" into the
workflow which could then be replaced and re-rendered. Almost like changing
build flags and recompiling a program.

~~~
TeMPOraL
The other day someone sent me this:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLg5CZ-
AG0g&feature=emb_titl...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLg5CZ-
AG0g&feature=emb_title)

This shows a product that apparently can scan a video for good places to put
ads, and then replace or insert advertisements into it. And by "insert" I mean
"add branded cups on the table where none existed" or "add a billboard to the
cityscape where none existed". Scary stuff, I absolutely hate that people are
working on such things.

------
firefoxd
Interesting that no one has mentioned Sonic the Hedgehog movie.

The first trailer came out and everyone thought it was terrible:
[https://youtu.be/4mW9FE5ILJs](https://youtu.be/4mW9FE5ILJs)

It had to be taken back to the drawing boards, and they pushed back the
release date. The new one is much better. This must be the first case of movie
trailer A/B test

~~~
hinkley
Think I heard the FX team behind Sonic went bankrupt. That’s going to serve as
a cautionary tale, if anything.

~~~
ravedave5
why speculate when it's so easy to google?

~~~
RandomBacon
I'm sorry that you're being downvoted. It would be nice if people verified
facts they aren't sure of before spreading them and furthering misinformation.

~~~
meddlepal
Funnily enough a search for "sonic fx team bankrupt" on Google now links to
the original comment on HN.

------
caymanjim
It's silly of them to dump more money into this trainwreck. It's been savaged
by every reviewer, and while some criticism has been directed at the "uncanny
valley" CGI, most of the criticism has been about the story and
characterizations.

~~~
cameronfraser
The only reason they are trying to "fix" it, is because they had so many big
name people attached to it. Which, to be honest, I'm really confused about.
The only reason I can think of is that it was based on a stage musical.

~~~
hinkley
I’m not even an actor and if someone said they wanted me to have a bit part
“in a movie with Judy Dench” I’d be like yeah okay. Poor Idris. I want to love
him but he’s in so, so many bad movies.

You get a couple of names on board based on an early draft of the script, they
took a chance on you or they had a moment of bad judgement. But your peers
come on board because you did, and pretty soon you have an all star cast
and... dreck.

Then it seems like everyone remembers that star power can’t fix everything and
it’s a while before the same thing happens again. Cats just seems to be this
cycle’s cautionary tale.

~~~
solarkraft
This is exactly how the supposedly terrible film _Movie 43_
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movie_43](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movie_43))
was made.

------
isopede
When does this patch land? I was hoping to see the original in all its glory,
but don't have time until later this week...

~~~
ObsoleteNerd
I’m sure it’ll leak to torrents soon (if it hasn’t already). It’s too much of
a meme-fest not to.

------
heinrichf
Previously discussed at
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21861294](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21861294)
, where I also linked to an interesting analysis of a VFX supervisor, and the
original Hollywood reporter article

------
tjpnz
This actually happens quite a bit between the premiere and general release of
a film, more so for VFX heavy features. Often the version screened at the
premiere and crew screenings will omit shots or be cut with early versions of
a shot that's still on the renderwall. Sometimes you also get alternate
versions of the end crawl with eulogies for crew members who've died during
production.

This wasn't possible up until relatively recently; you would have to lock
everything down by reel for printing. But given the prevalence of digital
projectors and distribution you can go right down to the minute.

------
skore
Since some people might pay again to see the "improved" version (after some of
them likely saw the original version to see for themselves what all the
screaming was about) - is this a film industry version of a DLC?

------
ctdonath
Recall that Highlander 2 and Highlander 2: Director’s Cut are practically
different movies thanks to significant editing (H2 being so bad that H3
actually apologized and reset the plot line to the end of H1).

~~~
philwelch
To be fair you have to pretty heavily retcon at least the implied ending of
Highlander 1 to even have a sequel at all.

~~~
ctdonath
Yeah, H3 actually reset storyline to about 10 minutes before the end of H1. (I
was trying to be concise.)

And by "H3 apologized for H2" I mean the main character literally sat in a
chair, looked into the camera, broke the 4th Wall, and in flowery terms
apologized for H2.

------
Uehreka
This reminds me of the interesting metaphysical argument that happened when
Kanye released The Life of Pablo to streaming services and then tweeted “Imma
fix Wolves”. To my knowledge, you have to really Google around to find the
original version of the song Wolves today (it would probably be harder if
Kanye had “fixed” it without announcing it first).

Basically, what is “Cats (2019)”? Is it the thing people saw last weekend? The
thing people will see next weekend? The further edited thing that shows up on
streaming services in a few months? Or does “Cats” just refer to the _idea_ of
a motion-captured live adaptation of the book musical “Cats” that stars a
certain group of people but takes many forms depending on when it was viewed?

~~~
paxys
Editing already-released media isn't that novel a concept. Books have been
getting updated in reprints since forever. Video games are constantly patched.
Movies have always put out "re-cut" or other editions in later releases and on
home video. The big change now is really the frequency of it, as everything
continues to go digital.

The way things are going, soon it'll be common to say "I'm going to watch the
movie a few weeks after release once they have worked out all the bugs".

~~~
mdasen
Are fiction books really that updated (in terms of the words, not formatting)?
I'd argue that a movie's visuals are part of the experience, but something
like the font or pagination doesn't change the experience of a book in a
significant way. Movies have been changed, but it's usually due to where it's
being watched (like different screen shapes) or in more minor ways.

And when movies get changed, people have problems with it. People want to see
the original Star Wars, but can't. Did Han shoot first? Still, the changes in
Star Wars seem minor by comparison. Yes, they updated the special effects and
made some edits. This sounds like they're changing the whole visual effect of
the movie because it's weirding people out. Like, imagine if they updated R2D2
and C3PO to be completely different; imagine if they changed Darth Vader to
David Prowse's voice after initially being released as James Earl Jones.

I think we historically haven't seen this in theaters because of the cost
involved. It's not like a streaming service where you just get Netflix to
encode the new version you give them.

Yea, things have always been altered, but this feels like it's breaking the
shared experience of seeing _Cats_. Whether Han shot first is subtle and I
probably wouldn't have noticed the change and I think people can ultimately
share in the common experience of seeing Star Wars even if they've seen
different versions. I guess it's just a matter of how drastic the changes feel
and whether it will break the shared experience we generally feel. We don't
know what "improved visuals" really means yet and how that will change the
experience.

~~~
lmm
> Are fiction books really that updated (in terms of the words, not
> formatting)?

I read _American Gods_ and was amazed that such a bloated story could have won
the Hugo and Nebula awards. And it turned out it didn't; despite advertising
those awards on the cover, the text I had read was 12,000 words longer than
the one that had been awarded.

~~~
tialaramex
Why would you be surprised for a Hugo? The Hugos are deliberately pure
popularity contest, they're a fan award. There is nothing wrong with that, but
it makes winning a Hugo more like having a gold YouTube plaque than say
winning a conventional literary prize like the Booker. It doesn't have to be
any "good" whatever that means so long as enough members of the fan community
like it.

The Nebula has a smaller problem because its members are at least nominally
actual authors, so you don't have fan contigents bloc voting like the Hugos
and most SFWA members know something about what makes a good novel but it's
still definitely there.

~~~
lmm
You seem to have posted a free-floating critique of the Hugo that has nothing
to do with what I wrote. (If anything, I have more faith in the Hugo award to
reject overwrought and overlong works than a more conventional literary
award).

~~~
tialaramex
So, your theory is that fans aren't the ones who uncritically support overlong
works? Presumably in your mind the Transformers and Pirates movies kept being
made because although fans noticed they were long slogs with nothing left to
say and stayed away, the critical acclaim ensured the studios reinvested?

Wait, no, those franchises got horrible reviews and they were made because
fans kept turning out to buy tickets for each iteration. Exactly the opposite
of what you seem to believe.

It's not a critique of the Hugos, they aren't pretending to be anything else
except a popularity contest. A whole bunch of the voters (including some
people I know) voted for that novel having read the version you feel is
bloated. They liked it. That's fans for you.

~~~
lmm
> Presumably in your mind the Transformers and Pirates movies kept being made
> because although fans noticed they were long slogs with nothing left to say
> and stayed away, the critical acclaim ensured the studios reinvested?

The critical attack on those movies is just the opposite: that they're overly
flighty, hyperactive even. A large part of their popular success is that they
keep their pacing up even at the expense of things that the critical
establishment might consider more important.

> A whole bunch of the voters (including some people I know) voted for that
> novel having read the version you feel is bloated.

No, they didn't. That version wasn't published until a year after the Hugo.
That was my whole point.

~~~
tialaramex
> The critical attack on those movies is just the opposite: that they're
> overly flighty, hyperactive even

That's not the opposite. "What you end up with is something that spends an
awfully long time, although not as long as its predecessors, doing a load of
things that don't ever actually get anywhere". That's a quote from Mark
Kermode reviewing "On Stranger Tides" the fourth of the Pirates movies. The
main thrust of his criticism is that this movie is faithful to its origins
specifically in the sense that it's an amusement park ride, a bunch of
superficially exciting things happen in a pre-determined order that doesn't
mean anything, nobody is changed by the experience and the operators of the
ride don't care because now they have your money.

Frenetic action is NOT the opposite of "long slogs with nothing left to say"
any more than a carousel ride is the opposite of going nowhere.

> That version wasn't published until a year after the Hugo.

That's correct. But my understanding is that Neil's "preferred text" largely
existed before the initial publication and a version of that was seen by fan
readers. His editor, like you, thought it needed substantial trimming. His
fans don't agree. The text you have also includes some bug fixes, but they're
not why it's so long.

~~~
lmm
> That's not the opposite. "What you end up with is something that spends an
> awfully long time, although not as long as its predecessors, doing a load of
> things that don't ever actually get anywhere". That's a quote from Mark
> Kermode reviewing "On Stranger Tides" the fourth of the Pirates movies. The
> main thrust of his criticism is that this movie is faithful to its origins
> specifically in the sense that it's an amusement park ride, a bunch of
> superficially exciting things happen in a pre-determined order that doesn't
> mean anything, nobody is changed by the experience and the operators of the
> ride don't care because now they have your money.

The attack here is that it has nothing to say, not that it's overlong/bloated.
If you think a movie is saying nothing then even 10 minutes would be "too
long", but the movie's length isn't the salient problem.

> my understanding is that Neil's "preferred text" largely existed before the
> initial publication and a version of that was seen by fan readers

A handful of fan readers may have seen that text, but surely not a significant
fraction of Hugo voters. Again this is a case where a popular vote has an
advantage: voting will necessarily be based on what was widely published,
whereas when an award is given by insiders it's more common for them to have
access to a different edit.

------
kbos87
I wonder if Cats really deserved the fait it wrought. You have to wonder if it
was universally seen to be terrible, or if a couple of early opinions led a
wave of negative opinions. Tough to really know.

~~~
anonymfus
The peak weirdness is probably this part:

[https://twitter.com/data_bayes/status/1209340322767081472](https://twitter.com/data_bayes/status/1209340322767081472)

~~~
SpaceManNabs
Why is this so weird? Maybe I watch too many weird films...

~~~
anonymfus
It is not specifically weird, but it seems like public someway started to
associate anthropomorphic animals with sexual fetishes, so when they see cat
eating cockroach in that scene for example they think about vore fetish and so
on.

~~~
ShamelessC
I'm aware of the vore associations.

However, were the original characters in the Cats play actually humanoid cats?
Or were they just humans dressing up as cats and the audience was meant to
suspend disbelief that what they were looking at were just regular cats?

I ask because obviously a play can't get "live talking cats" without human
actors but a movie can easily do so with CG.

Why did they decide to go with humanoid cats instead of regular cats with
voice actors? Was it just to match the aesthetic of the play? Or does the plot
actually involve the cats being canonicaly humanoid?

~~~
tialaramex
The musical is performed in costume. Yes audiences suspend disbelief, just as
they do when, say, Romeo clearly isn't really dead in a typical performance of
Shakespeare's play.

The musical is based on an existing work, a correction of amusing poems about
actual cats by T S Eliot.

Probably the movie just shouldn't exist. An animated movie of the poems using
some famous songs from the musical could have worked for example, but that's
not what this is.

~~~
Dylan16807
> The musical is performed in costume. Yes audiences suspend disbelief, just
> as they do when, say, Romeo clearly isn't really dead in a typical
> performance of Shakespeare's play.

They were asking what specifically the costumes represent. They weren't
confused about the concept of costumes in a play.

The cats are anthropomorphized somewhat, or they wouldn't be having proper
conversations with each other. This already requires suspension of disbelief,
accepting that it's a fantasy world. The question is how far that
anthropomorphization goes, in the internal logic/canon of the play.

------
moomin
Ironically this may actually reduce its long term appeal. The original cut has
the making of a cult favourite.

------
yellow_lead
It's interesting that producers still send physical copies to theaters.

~~~
ekianjo
Not all, I believe. There are theaters that get movies thru digital
transmission as well. How much it is widespread, however, I don't know.

EDIT:
[https://www.bizjournals.com/losangeles/news/2017/03/23/75-of...](https://www.bizjournals.com/losangeles/news/2017/03/23/75-of-
u-s-theaters-get-their-movies-delivered-by.html) 75% of cinemas in the US get
their movies digitally distributed.

~~~
danso
Incidentally, I tried to see the new Star Wars movie today. But the projector
stopped working and the employees blamed it on a computer failure.

------
noonespecial
You don't remember that scene? Oh wait, my copy is _Cats v2.0.36_ , you've
still got 2.0.22, just git pull the latest.

I can't friggin wait...

------
clSTophEjUdRanu
Kanye West - The Life of Pablo was changed like 10+ times after release.

~~~
krapp
Also, George Lucas or somebody is _still_ messing with the OT. For the Disney+
release of A New Hope, the scene between Greedo and Han Solo now has Greedo
say "Maclunkey[0]" before shooting.

This is apparently a Huttese insult that means something like "I will end
you," and it's supposed to provide moral justification for Han percieving
Greedo as an imminent threat and shooting him. This is also apparently in the
Dug's dialogue in The Phantom Menace. I forget the thing's name.

Also I think the timing of their shots are tweaked so they happen almost
simultaneously.

[0][https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mH19gKo7W7w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mH19gKo7W7w)

------
nikanj
This will, maybe, drive some people into the theatres to see the original.

