
The Oldest Living Civilization (1944) - benbreen
https://www.historians.org/about-aha-and-membership/aha-history-and-archives/gi-roundtable-series/pamphlets/em-42-our-chinese-ally-(1944)/the-oldest-living-civilization
======
Iv
Does it make sense to talk about the Chinese civilization like a single
continuous civilization? That's a bit like saying Italy's civilization dates
from the first Etruscan settlements or that French civilization is as old as
the megaliths in Brittany.

I am a bit suspicious of these claims as they are central to Chinese
nationalism. In order to hold them you have to disregard the several periods
where the country was split in several parts and have to integrate somehow the
mongol conquest.

To the best of my knowledge, the best claimants to the longest enduring and
continuously existing organizations are the Holy See and when it comes to
governing bodies, Iceland's Althing (founded in 930)

~~~
austincheney
Continuous civilization only means the defining characteristics of
civilization remain unbroken through regime change.

Only China and India have had continuous civilization from the ancient to the
present. That remains true even though the Yuan dynasty were foreign invaders.

Contrast that to the Saxon invasion of Britain or the Spanish conquest of the
Aztecs or the gothic conquest of Italy.

~~~
svaigsq
Oh, come on... maybe get some interest in history and dig through at least
some of the things that you are touching.

Paper is written in 1944. None of that was true for that time and does not
apply to modern days at all. It seems to be influenced by pre-war mystical New
Ageish movements in Europe, that claimed many things... like, that Europeans
came from Tibet...

I'm really confused about definitions here. What we define as Western,
Chinese, Indian civilization and what we define as civilization at all.

You can like it or hate it, but modern Chinese nowadays belong to Western
civilization - they use Western inventions(and they still steal them - no
offense, but I think, it is a right thing to do for them to get into better
economical position and you should do the same) - phones, computers,
mechanisms, medicine, sanitation, building, use western clothing and even Mao
spread western ideas... At this point Chinese civilization as such certainly
does not exist and it is a myth. Same applies to others.

Let's clarify some things about Western civilization: Western civilization
does not apply exclusively to Western Europe. Roman Empire, that was melting
pot of nations and cultures was spread in northern Africa and for most of what
is considered world of Islam. Not bothering with colonies, core lands of
ancient Greeks were in what is now called west of modern Turkey. Most of the
world still does not know about great Chinese works, but they too don't
predate works of ancient Greeks(as they were written more recently). There
certainly existed even more ancient literature works in ancient China, but so
did in civilization, what we consider western.

What you are talking about continuity of Chinese applies the same to Europeans
as well, as they stem from steppe people, that were initially located in
Eastern Europe and they even more efficiently than Chinese replaced local
population. Heck, those steppe people even invaded civilization of Indus
valley, eventually destroying it and replacing male population for most of
northern India. Talk about continuity of ancient India - did you meant Tamil
people or Harappans? Because if Harappans(Indus valley civilization) is
considered Indian, then Tamil ancestors are thought to come from somewhere
west of India and are not really native to India... unlike Veddas in Sri Lanka
or Sentinelese of Andaman islands.

Now some nitpicks: Goths did not left any traces of Gothic civilization in
Italy - besides, how do you even dear to consider Goths not belonging to Roman
Empire, as they were employed by Romans! As far as I know, Goths did not
invade only Italy, but also invaded Spain and settled in most fertile part of
Roman Empire - Africa, so they walked over whole Roman Empire. There was no
specific civilization of Britain during Saxon invasions. What did they even
replace? And how do you differ them from Normans, Angles or even earlier
Viking invasions? For all I know - all of them might belong to the same
culture. Because of Spanish conquest, Americas are now considered part of
Western civilization. Aztecs came from deserts of modern USA and were rulers
over natives, so what's your point? And even then Aztecs were not unique
civilization, but only part of civilization region of what we call
Mesoamerica. Isn't is a hypocrisy to consider multiple states of China, that
fought among themselves as continuous civilization(even today there are 2
Chinese states)... while looking on different European countries, who share
the same civilization not consider them as continuous...

~~~
austincheney
Here is the Wikipedia definition

> A civilization or civilisation (see English spelling differences) is any
> complex society characterized by urban development, social stratification
> imposed by a cultural elite, symbolic systems of communication (for example,
> writing systems), and a perceived separation from and domination over the
> natural environment.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8]

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilization)

In my college ancient history class I learned civilization was any group
comprising the following:

* Fixed and defined geographical boundaries

* A systematically developed art/culture

* A government, even something as primitive as despotism

* A developed institution of one or more religions and/or science

~~~
svaigsq
I can read wiki, but the source of 1944 article is hardly wiki material, as
there is no mention of similar ideas about ancient China. If you scroll that
wiki link you posted, then you can find this link with dates for
civilizations: [http://www.ancienthistorylists.com/ancient-
civilizations/10-...](http://www.ancienthistorylists.com/ancient-
civilizations/10-oldest-ancient-civilizations-ever-existed/)

What's the use of learned knowledge, if it can't be used for practical
purposes? Your definition of civilization is enough to ponder what makes
civilization now:

one internet for communication, K-POP, impossibility to do isolated science,
global corporations with factories in China, that will suffer shortages
because of Coronavirus, that can be spread by connecting airlines. Suddenly
Chinese eating habits is concern for the rest of the world.

------
docdeek
I was taught as a child in Australia that the Indigenous Australians were the
world’s oldest living/surviving civilization.

~~~
ars
They are probably excluded for not having any sort of symbolic communication
system (writing, hieroglyphics, knot patterns, stuff like that).

~~~
garmaine
Or cities, monumental architecture, or unified government. The term
"civilization" in this context is an academic category for historical
societies, and its absence does not imply the pejorative "uncivilized."

------
m-app
Related to this, reading some Chinese science-fiction (mainly Ken Liu's
translations of full books and collections of short stories) has made me
realize the gap in knowledge I have with regards to Chinese history. In some
of the time travel-related stories some dynasties and other historical events
are mentioned as easily as we do our Roman or Greek histories for example,
which of course makes sense.

Does anyone have any recommendations on books covering the major Chinese
historical eras? This article and the diagram in it are a great start that I
would love to dig deeper into.

------
analyst74
> Until the Japanese invasion her conquerors have been barbarians who looked
> up to the higher civilization of China and eagerly adopted it.

I always thought this is uniquely Chinese thing, but recently learnt that
Athens had a similar history. Many of Athens architectures are actually built
by its conquerors who admired its culture.

~~~
_iyig
The echoes of Roman (and Greek) admiration are still visible in Europe, and
even throughout the Americas:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoclassical_architecture](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoclassical_architecture)

Another example - the common language of ancient Rome, Latin, is still the
official spoken language of the Catholic Church. Until the 1960s, priestly
instruction and most Catholic masses were conducted in Latin:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesiastical_Latin#Current_u...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesiastical_Latin#Current_use)

------
peteretep
> Even a poor Chinese with no education is likely to have the instincts and
> bearing of an educated man. He sets great store by such things as personal
> dignity, self-respect, and respect for others.

I get the impression that Taiwanese and Hong Kong people might not agree with
this point to describe the mainlanders.

~~~
H_Pylori
The article was written before communism. I've heard from different accounts
that communism has had a deleterious effect on people's manner. I don't know
if this is true or not, but it's a reasonable explanation.

~~~
ekianjo
> communism has had a deleterious effect on people's manner.

Thats an understatement. Look at the history with the Great Leap Forward and
how it changed chinese culture forever.

~~~
osullivj
Yes - "bourgeois" manners were rejected as affectation.

------
ravish-tech
That’s based on what we found of once humans started writing. Civilisation
have been going on long before that. Many cultures like Hindus preferred oral
methods to written books so no single person/object has the power. Having said
that. China did give the world lot of things and I respect them food it.

------
_iyig
To what extent did the Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution, and
destruction of the "Four Olds" (Old Customs, Old Culture, Old Habits, and Old
Ideas) damage this extensive cultural and historical tradition? Was the damage
mostly material e.g. temples razed and books burnt, or did China's early
Communist period have significant cultural/behavioral impacts as well?

I've heard some commentators say that Taiwan preserves much of this "lost"
Chinese culture and history, but outside of temples and dragon dancing, I
don't really know what this means. Could anyone shine a light?

~~~
est
> damage this extensive cultural and historical tradition

Damaging tradition is one of the traditions. Think of the first emperor
literally damaged the culture of the six kingdoms to unite China in 213 B.C.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_of_books_and_burying_o...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_of_books_and_burying_of_scholars)

~~~
_iyig
I certainly remember Emperor Qin Shi Huang from his appearance in both "The
Three-Body Problem" and the somewhat lesser-known "Day of the Dragon King," an
entry in Magic Tree House children's fantasy series :)

Ironically given the book-burning context, our youthful protagonists in the
latter are equipped with magic library cards.

------
beardedman
I wonder how connected our deep desire for culture (community) is connected to
having far right/left views.

------
bra4you
"Until the Opium War of 1840–42 the European merchants and voyagers who
reached the distant land of China had looked upon the Chinese with a good deal
of awe as a people of superior culture."

Bullshit and Chinese Propaganda with their "5000 years old culture".

5000 years ago we are talking about bones inscribed with precursors of the
Chinese writing system. Not bad, but compare this to the Pyramids at the same
time?

Around the year 0 the Chinese culture was en par with the level of western
culture and technology - speak Rome.

Only during the middle ages the west fell so far beyond and Chinese had indeed
a superior level of technology, knowledge and administration. Things reversed
again with the industrial revolution and the center of industrial GDP moved to
the west again. Now since China and the rest of Asia has also industrialized
and due to far more people in Asia, the center of world GDP has shifted back
to the East.

If you can really talk about a "continuous civilization" for 5000, 3500 or
even 2000 years is doubtful.

The experience from businessman with Chinese: 30 years ago they had an
inferior complex because they were technological too far behind and a feeling
of cultural superiority. Now the have the feeling of technological superiority
combined with cultural superiority.

Chinese culture has a lot of strengths. But it also comes with a lot of
weaknesses. I am skeptical about the "Chinese Century"

~~~
geowwy

      > Around the year 0 the Chinese culture was en par with the level of western
      > culture and technology - speak Rome.
      >
      > Only during the middle ages the west fell so far beyond and Chinese had indeed
      > a superior level of technology, knowledge and administration. Things reversed
      > again with the industrial revolution and the center of industrial GDP moved to
      > the west again.
    

I think you've got shifting definitions of the West.

The Roman Empire was on par with China, but the Roman Empire was centred
around the Near East – Greece, Turkey, Syria, Egypt, etc.

Western European parts of the Empire were very under-developed, and only
really served as a buffer for Rome. (Consider how quickly the Roman Empire
gave up the West after moving its capital to the East.)

In the Middle Ages the West was behind, but it was in ancient times too, so no
difference. And the Near East was still on par – no difference again.

It's only really modern times that have been difference, with the West
exploding out of nowhere. But that is probably just a blip, and in the grand
scheme we will probably end up with China and the Near East rising again.

~~~
cygx
That's not the impression I get from
[https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/byzantine-
philosophy/](https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/byzantine-philosophy/)

Quote:

 _There was never in Byzantium anything resembling the autonomous universities
of the Latin West. Higher education was designed to train officials of the
state and church, not masters of the arts and sciences._

 _edit:_ I guess that's a reference to later developments, though...

~~~
mdiesel
I can only really comment on UK institutions.

The article is talking about between 730 and 1453. Oxf*rd wasn't teaching
until 1096, so I think it's fair to say England was behind for at least 300
years. It wouldn't be until the renaissance (after 1450) that you started
seeing a break from scholastic teaching and academics like Bacon.

------
amriksohata
Reading about the GDP of India and China, both two were the richest countries
in the world before Mughal and British invasions. There was a reason they
called India the jewel in the crown, it was the biggest transfer of wealth
from the east to the west

~~~
elfexec
As awful as the theft of wealth was, the bigger crime was the prevention of
industrialization. India was directly stopped by britain from industrializing
because britain didn't want a competitor and rather wanted to use india for
resources to power its industrialization. China directly somewhat, but mostly
indirectly was prevented from industrialization by western powers ( and
eventually japan ) who destabilized china and seized its major ports,
industries, resources, etc.

If india and china were able to free itself and industrialize when japan did,
india and china would easily have the two largest economies in the world
today. It's disheartening thinking about all the wealth, knowledge, goods,
discoveries etc the world missed out because of shortsighted greed and
brutality.

~~~
amriksohata
India before industralisation, did not need industralisation. It was rich
because it had the oil of the time, which was cotton, spices, fertile land.
The industry was removed and moved to Britain. Britain needed the industry as
it was a relatively poor country, India did not.

~~~
sifar
I think you are conflating industry and markets. Britain already had the
industries when it started colonizing India.

What it needed were the markets to sell the factory produce. That is what they
traded in return for the spices and raw materials.

Hence it destroyed the competing industries in it's colonies like India -
which was a huge market.

~~~
amriksohata
It had industries, but India did not need these industries. This was not
trade, this was loot. Read up on the East India Company. It did not destroy
competing industries, they shut down Muslin cloth production in Bengal lol.

