
Ask HN: How do I persuade my designer that a character is useful - interdrift
Hi guys, we are a couple of friends building a product. I&#x27;m the so called &#x27;leader&#x27;, and I&#x27;m having the following problem -<p>I&#x27;m a huge fan of Github and Travis CI design. I just love the characters and the way they help the marketing of the product.  I have a great idea of a character that fits the purpose of the product. The problem is that the designer doesn&#x27;t like having a character in the logo as it is &#x27;too childish&#x27; .Of course, I mentioned we can use it in email marketing etc.In my opinion having the character in the logo is crucial to the marketing. How do I persuade her that we must do this? What are the pros and cons to having a character? In short... can you compare the success of top products who feature a character in their logo and top products which do not. e.g which one maximizes the probability of a &#x27;unicorn&#x27;.
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meagher
TL;DR: You don't have to convince the designer of anything---you can "disagree
and commit" and spend time on other decisions. Maybe some help:

> _Third, use the phrase “disagree and commit.” This phrase will save a lot of
> time. If you have conviction on a particular direction even though there’s
> no consensus, it’s helpful to say, “Look, I know we disagree on this but
> will you gamble with me on it? Disagree and commit?” By the time you’re at
> this point, no one can know the answer for sure, and you’ll probably get a
> quick yes._

> _Consider how much slower this decision cycle would have been if the team
> had actually had to convince me rather than simply get my commitment._

From Jeff Bezos' Annual Letter
([https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1018724/000119312517...](https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1018724/000119312517120198/d373368dex991.htm))

~~~
anigbrowl
Ugh. Added to my list of 'manipulation tactics to be on the lookout for.'

~~~
true_religion
It's not a manipulation, it's acknowledgement of the reality that one party
has the power and the other doesn't. Why have a leader who cannot make
decisions without taking a vote?

~~~
anigbrowl
Then what is the point of asking for buy-in? As opposed to 'Interesting views
everyone, thanks. I'm gonna go with option B.' Then there's no ambiguity about
who took the decision.

I didn't remember it when I commented earlier, about 15 years ago I was in a
job where boss walked in when I was with clients and asked me to proofread
some ad copy. I did and made one minor correction (with a pen, I didn't talk
about it). He called me into his office a few moments later and reamed me for
'undermining him in front of clients' because I had failed to understand that
his intention was to show off rather than actually have me proofread the copy.
He became so abusive (threatening violence and so on) that I quit on the spot.

tl;dr don't ask an open-ended question if what you actually want is validation
of your decision.

~~~
true_religion
I'm not really seeing a buy-in clause.

It's called 'disagree and commit', wherein you can disagree with the direction
the leader has decided to go in, but still commit to following direction.

This is opposed to 'disagree and dig your heels in' which is the default
expectation. Or 'disagree and implement poorly'.

~~~
anigbrowl
Where Bezos asks 'will you take a gamble with me on this?' If you're not
seeing it that's because it's already fallen below your language-processing
radar and you're not actually evaluating the words coming out of his mouth,
but rather the subtext you feel is being communicated. This isn't an accident.

------
wavefunction
I don't even know how to approach this question.

There are grammatical typos. The poster appears to have little professional
experience in an area they're attempting to get reinforcing opinions for their
stance from HN for, and the entire question seems both shallow, stupid and
ridiculous.

Someone with apparently no experience in branding or marketing wants to
override their experienced colleague and thinks it's going to mean the
difference between a 'unicorn' and a... moderately successful company?

~~~
interdrift
You are currently not adding any value to my question and I did not force you
to answer.

~~~
skylark
There was actually significant value there, but I fear you're going to do what
the other poster suggested, flex your position of power and drop the
"disagree/commit" line on one of your friends to get your way.

You came here looking for validation, but what you really need to do is focus
on the things that actually matter and trust your team to make the best
decisions they can. At the very least you might still have friends a few
months from now.

~~~
interdrift
We are taking decisions as a team and I don't see how friendship matters while
you design something.

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erulabs
Single biggest problem in the startup world is the "founder's vision". You
either do or do not need a designer. If you know better, don't hire a
designer. If you don't know better, hire a designer.

Now, since you _already have a designer_... How about let them do their job
and if there is poor response or if the employee is twiddling their thumbs at
some point you can ask them to make the version you want.

I have long since lost track of the number of times a small startup, which
finally got some funding, hired experienced senior employees at the request of
their investors and proceeded to ignore everything those new employees
recommended. This applies to everything from design to devops to running the
reception desk.

------
dllthomas
Clearly, the probability of a unicorn is maximized by putting a unicorn in the
logo. Boom. Unicorn. Probability 1.

~~~
interdrift
Nailed it.

------
suresk
I don't know that any hard data exists on this because, frankly, it seems kind
of silly. Plenty of companies have been incredibly successful without any sort
of character as part of their branding (Uber, Twitter, Facebook, Google, Apple
- to name just a few) and there are plenty of "characters" in the graveyards
of internet startups. Sure, some successful ones may stand out to you, but is
it because the characters sold the product, or is it because the product
itself was so good that you got a lot of exposure to the characters?

It doesn't seem like design/marketing is your area of expertise, yet you are
trying to push someone who is more experienced in that area to follow your
vision, which you don't really have any good validation for (hence the reason
you are asking here) - that doesn't seem like very good leadership to me.

You are still building a product - is it worth expending this much time,
energy, and conflict with your designer over something that most of us think
is pretty trivial? Is your product in a good enough state that you have the
luxury of fighting over something like this?

~~~
true_religion
Twitter has the bird.

~~~
suresk
Isn't that more of a logo than a character? I'm not really sure where you draw
the line, but it doesn't feel like the bird has been much more than a logo for
Twitter.

~~~
true_religion
At many points in its evolution, Twitter's logo was very cartoonish [1]. Third
party companies often seized on this to make the bird even more of a character
on their websites.

People would also often reference the bird, because of the connection that
birds "tweet".

I can't say if they used the bird extensively in their documentation and
backend tools, but that's where it's more likely to have been playfully
included since their frontend was always pretty simple and to the point.

[1]
[https://www.imore.com/sites/imore.com/files/styles/larger/pu...](https://www.imore.com/sites/imore.com/files/styles/larger/public/field/image/2016/05/twitter-
logo-evolution-01.jpg?itok=sE51Fnhu)

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raverbashing
How about you listen to the specialist you hired for this specific purpose?

You can have a character, just not as part of the logo

------
admax88q
> In short... can you compare the success of top products who feature a
> character in their logo and top products which do not. e.g which one
> maximizes the probability of a 'unicorn'.

Why don't you do your own research to compare the success of products with and
without a character in their logos.

~~~
interdrift
You can't answer a question with a question. I'm interested in how people
generally feel about it.

------
anigbrowl
Well how are we supposed to assess this without knowing anything about your
product or target demographic? Will it be used by quirky individual geeks, or
are you aiming at market position in an established industry or...?

If you're offering funeral services, for example, even the world's cutest
cartoon skeleton might not be an appropriate logo element. Your HN bia says
'builds software for chemical diagnosis' \- sounds like your target demo is
doctors and hospitals but I'm just guessing. I presume you wish to be
different from other firms competing in the same market, but different isn't
always better.

 _In short... can you compare the success of top products who feature a
character in their logo and top products which do not. e.g which one maximizes
the probability of a 'unicorn'._

I could...what are you offering in return? Right now it sounds like you want
other people to do stuff for you for free so you can get what you want, which
isn't a very compelling come-on. That might be why everyone is taking your
designer's side instead of yours, hm?

~~~
interdrift
Maybe 'unicorn' wasn't the correct word, how many of the products you
absolutely love feature a character in their logo? Yes, it does depend on the
context but you can consider the context to be as appropriate as octocat is to
github.

~~~
anigbrowl
I don't want to be rude to you but you're trying to get validation for your
opinion from social media to win an argument, which is rather immature. This
is disrespectful to your designer.

~~~
interdrift
Not really, I want to understand how a lot of smart people feel about a
conflicting topic. There's no right or wrong in the situation, there's optimal
and suboptimal.

~~~
jotux
>There's no right or wrong in the situation, there's optimal and suboptimal.

>In my opinion having the character in the logo is crucial to the marketing.
How do I persuade her that we must do this?

These statements seem to conflict with each other.

~~~
interdrift
Not necessarily, I'm not saying her idea is wrong, I'm saying that mine is
slightly better in this case.

~~~
anigbrowl
But not, apparently, in any way that you are able to articulate. For example
your designer feels the idea is childish, but if your agreed-upon strategy is
to position your firm as the most friendly and accessible vendor for new
buyers that might be OK. If you want to be the safe choice of professionals,
then maybe not.

Taste is highly subjective, but your designer is a specialist in visual
communication and literally sees the world in a different way from how you do.

------
nik736
Maybe you shouldn't persuade her but listen to the expert you hired?

~~~
interdrift
IMO great products come with mutual agreement.

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rubbingalcohol
You're not a designer, so come off it.

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neuronexmachina
If this is the sort of thing you're worrying about as a "leader," you're going
to have a bad time.

~~~
interdrift
Why?

~~~
neuronexmachina
To be honest, your post sets off a number of red flags: micromanaging, second-
guessing employees in their area of expertise, and asking "how do I become a
unicorn".

You should take this as a cautionary tale:
[http://www.theverge.com/2016/2/2/10898762/uber-ceo-travis-
ka...](http://www.theverge.com/2016/2/2/10898762/uber-ceo-travis-kalanick-
logo-redesign-self-discovery)

> Kalanick is not a designer... Yet he refused to entrust the rebranding
> process to someone else. This was an unusual decision, on his part. When
> overhauling the identify of their company, most CEOs hire experts—branding
> agencies that specialize in translating corporate values into fonts and
> colors—or assign the task to an in-house design team. Not Kalanick. For the
> past three years, he’s worked alongside Uber design director Shalim Amin and
> a dozen-or-so other folks, hammering out ideas from a poorly ventilated
> space they call the War Room. Along the way, he studied up on concepts
> ranging from kerning to color palettes. "I didn’t know any of this stuff,"
> says Kalanick. "I just knew it was important, and so I wanted it to be
> good."

~~~
interdrift
Okay, that makes sense to me. Thanks

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anthony_franco
Ask your customers how they'd feel about a character in the logo, they're a
better audience to poll.

And if you don't have customers to ask, then that should be your #1 priority
instead of worrying about your logo. Github launched and worried about their
octocat way, way later.

~~~
interdrift
Great! Thank you!

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adambratt
How many of these companies were successful because of a character in their
logo?

[http://fortune.com/unicorns/](http://fortune.com/unicorns/)

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tabeth
It doesn't matter. Don't you have better things to be doing?

~~~
interdrift
Doing what I believe is the correct thing to be doing now.

