
Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next? - throw-away1979
&lt;Using a throwaway account for privacy&gt;<p>I have been looking to change jobs over the last 8 months. I am in a product management leadership position at my current job, and looking to shift to a similar role in either a slightly smaller company or in a different industry. However, I have found it extremely hard to accomplish this. I have no idea why I am failing in final rounds, but in most instances the feedback has been &quot;You are a great candidate, and we would like you to interview with this other role. But this particular role is not a good fit&quot;<p>What am I doing wrong ? Few facts about me&quot; 
- I have over 12 years of work experience across 4 companies (well known brands)
- I am in my mid 30s - I am Indian, and FOB, with an accent (not a heavy accent though)<p>I have run completely out of ideas now. I have probably spoken with 100 people during the course of 15 interviews and I haven&#x27;t gotten any feedback on what I am doing wrong. I absolutely HATE my current job. I get depressed thinking about working in my current job for the foreseeable future. But looks like I don&#x27;t have any recourse. I am almost thinking of halting my job search and finding some kind of hobby to keep me occupied and keep my mind off work. Any advice would be appreciated.
======
lr4444lr
Taking your description at face value, something is incongruous between how
you present yourself in person vs. on your resumé. I can't see how otherwise
despite your qualifications on paper and in your phone conversation why a
company would spend their time bringing you onsite for a specific position,
and then find you unfit but still want to consider you for something else.
There seems to be a disconnect that doesn't manifest until that late stage.
And I don't think any further online diagnosis of the problem will help. I
think you should seek out a trusted individual you know in person to help you
identify that incongruity. Realize, it might mean you get rejected earlier in
the process, but maybe that's for the best if it saves you time in interview
processes that will eventually not work out anyway, and attract the attention
of the ones that will faster.

~~~
uptownfunk
Definitely agree with the above.

Some thoughts.. I'm Indian-bodied but was born and raised in the states. When
I was in my early 20s I lived on and off in India for about 5 years (about 6
months at a time). So I've had a decent amount of exposure to Indians of all
types (Indian and American born). I've also worked with a fair amount of
Indians over the course of the last few years.

These may not be the case with you, but as someone who has had a fair amount
of exposure to Indians form India, and as someone who has coached and
interviewed a fair amount of Indians for a variety of roles, the following may
help:

+A lot of it boils down to personality. I've noticed a very wide spectrum of
attitudes coming from Indians. I think a fair amount of introspection and
awareness about how you are coming across to the other side is a really
powerful tool to employ. I've seen a lot of ego and general lack of
sophistication and at times class from some Indians that I've met, and I'm
certainly not saying that this may be the case with you, but it may be worth
considering if there's something about your mannerism / tone that maybe
rubbing people the wrong way.

+Being a FOB language skills can be a natural weakness but judging by your
post this doesn't seem to be the case. I think being yourself and honing your
personality will have more impact, but taking a little extra care in how you
communicate can really work wonders.

+You say you're in a product management role, there's generally an axis of
management skill vs. technical ability. Some companies may be looking for one
or the other, and in the interview you may or may not be emphasizing the one
they're looking for.

+And finally there's leadership ability, particularly important in management
roles. Have you led your teams to success in your career? Reflect about what
got you to that point, and try and channel that into your interviews.

+Above all, stay the course if you can. If you're convinced you're on the path
you want to go, then persist. If you want something else and have the runway
to pursue it, then a change of environment is a great first step towards
finding your next step into something that motivates you.

No offense intended in any of the above, and best of luck to you!

~~~
raverbashing
You are right.

The thing with stereotypes is that it lingers. But people from different
generations might do away with that

Now, a Project Management position in a smaller company might require
different skills. Being a Product Owner of a feature in a bigger product with
broken down requirements coming from upstream is a _very different job_ than
POing at a smaller company where you have to come up with requirements based
on goals.

------
throawayname
What are you willing to sacrifice? I can give you an answer, but you won't
like it. As an Indian man you'll be discriminated against. Period. Lots of
empirical proof for that, not just job wise but in lots of other cases
(dating, etc).

While folks here will give you lots of tips on the professional side, here are
a few actionable things you can do to minimize racial bias:

\- Change your name to an americanized version. I know someone who did this.
Lots of research that proves this point:
[http://bit.ly/1mcsxdJ](http://bit.ly/1mcsxdJ)

\- Take acting classes and learn to speak with no accent It wont be permanent,
but you'll be able to minimize your accent for a few hours in the interview.
It's akin to speaking with a fake French accent. See:
[http://bit.ly/2loPQwy](http://bit.ly/2loPQwy)

\- Pay people to give you mock interviews and record them. Pay someone else to
review the footage and give you interviewing tips.

\- Improve your appearance: Bleach your hair lighter shade of brown and try to
dress comfortably casual.

\- Take some dating classes, learn to improve your confidence (or at least
fake it for the in-person interview0.

\- Improve your public speaking ability: Join a toastmasters group, get a
mentor and give a few speeches.

A job interview is a bit like dating. If you're getting rejected during in-
person interviews, then learn to "date better". A lot of racial biases here in
SFbay are pretty rough. Even if you graduated top of your class at Stanford
and had a successful exit you'll be near the bottom of the pile when it comes
to dating.

~~~
throw_xyz
Amen.

There are very strong racial stereotypes. They also vary by who holds them.

I'm a 40+ yo Russian system programmer, moved to States when I was 25, worked
in a bunch of places from smaller startups to Fortune-500 shops. Here are my
stereotypes:

* Russians are frustrated know-it-alls with strong NIH syndrom wanting to redo everything from scratch. The language barrier often makes it hard for them to clearly express their grand ideas, hence the frustration. They will solve things backwards because it's more interesting that way.

* Chinese will cut corners to fit deadlines. They _can_ write beautiful code, but more often than not they don't bother and go with absolute minimal something that fits the spec.

* Swedes, Finns, Germans and Brits are very much OK. Easily the best in terms of working together.

* Canadians and Australians are solid if a bit slow.

* Eastern Europeans are immensely productive hacks, opinionated as hell, but very good for rapid prototyping.

* Indians ...

Now, Indians are arrogant know-it-alls that _lust_ for respect and power.
Frequently the source of pointless drama in the workplace. They are very
smart, write good code, but they also have very hard time admitting their
mistakes. This often makes it hard to work with them as _colleagues_.

Stereotypes are VERY important to keep in mind, because that's the starting
point for every candidate assessment. The best the OP can do is to throw the
interviewers off their footing. Say something like I'm Indian, but I was born
in Argentina - and, bam, they can't sort you in a default bucket, so they are
forced to actually start assessing you from scratch. The same goes for dyeing
your hair, fixing the accent, changing the name - it's all for trying to
separate yourself from a stereotype and make them view you as an _individual_.

~~~
akappa
That's interesting. Are you aware of any stereotype about/against italians?

~~~
raverbashing
In Canada the stereotypes I heard about Italians weren't the nicest ones but I
see their reasons

But the perception is usually neutral it seems

~~~
akappa
What kind of reasons? Old stuff like mafia or instead something (semi-)factual
like our relaxed relationship with time management?

~~~
raverbashing
The Mafia is not "old stuff" in some parts of Quebec (and maybe other places)

------
monster2control
Not to be mean spirited, but it sounds like you either need to learn how to
close or you are going for positions you really aren't a good fit for.

I've gotten every job I've ever interviewed for that I really wanted. In the
end, it's about perception and desire. If you don't go in acting like you
deserve the job and can be an asset to the company, you are not likely to get
an offer.

You also have to be able to sell yourself as the perfect fit. Trust me, no one
is, but if you believe you can become it, it will show and they will believe
it too. That's when the offers come in.

Go through your skill sets, really step back and evaluate if it's up to date
enough for these newer positions you are going for.

Also, if you go into an interview with the attitude that you hate your current
job, it will show. You need to make peace with whatever your current job is,
find something positive about it, and reflect on that. This will help you to
be positive in your interviews and talk well about your current company, which
employers want to hear.

~~~
santoshalper
> Not to be mean spirited

In the history of human interaction, has anyone said that and not then
followed it up with something arrogant and dickish?

> I've gotten every job I've ever interviewed for that I really wanted

Of course you have. And the jobs you didn't get you later decided you must not
have really wanted enough. I wonder how you would have felt about those jobs
if you had gotten them.

We get it, you're a super impressive person. You can stop trying so hard to
impress us now.

~~~
a_t48
He may also be in an industry or an area where given a certain bar of quality
and a friend at whatever company you are applying to, you get in. From my
viewpoint, it's super common in engineering.

------
fecak
I've got ~20 years of recruiting for startups, write resumes (and profiles,
etc), and coach job seekers. 50 apps and 15 interviews isn't a bad result in
most cases, so you seem relatively effective in getting interviews. Whatever
you are doing to get in is working.

Sometimes the resume "oversells" the applicant. I wonder if they are expecting
someone a bit more knowledgeable and skilled based on how you present
yourself. This is just a guess of course, but do you feel the resume truly
represents (and does not overstate) your accomplishments?

How about price? You say you've worked for 4 "brands", so I'd expect you are
paid well. Maybe they all like you, but not as much as the others when
comparing price and experience of others.

Your mention accent, so that is obviously at least on your mind. Doesn't sound
like a huge factor if you're making it onsite 50%.

These problems can be tricky. Stay at it, and maybe ask a past interviewer for
some helpful feedback. They will likely be reluctant to give it to you (legal
reasons, nothing to gain but goodwill), but worth a shot.

Good luck.

~~~
dnautics
> Sometimes the resume "oversells" the applicant. I wonder if they are
> expecting someone a bit more knowledgeable and skilled based on how you
> present yourself.

I ran into this problem myself. One of the headhunting services rated me as an
excellent programmer (I managed to get a sneak peek at the sheet that got sent
to the places I recruited at). I think I'm a decent programmer - I wrote a DSL
that converts Julia to verilog - but not having any real industry experience,
my whiteboarding sucks and I don't do things like "default to hash" even
though I actually do that when I program.

Consequently, I got no offers and repeatedly got told they were "looking for
someone more senior". Probably for OP, being Asian also totally hurts, because
as an overrepresented minority, hirers are looking for any reason to not take
him.

I'd tell the OP, try to get hired by a friend.

------
mchannon
Pretty much all of these other posters appear to agree that it's some form of
"here's what's wrong with you", when in fact, none of us can know if that's
the case.

But let's look at the numbers. Pretend every onsite interview had a random 10%
chance of resulting in an offer. 10% offends certain people's sensibilities,
but in this crazy bubble, I'd say for some businesses, it's on the high side.
Management is a political game, and it's rigged, often against high
performers. One interviewer may have made their employer pass on you because
they felt you'd jeopardize their cushy monday-morning work habits, despite the
fact the project is months behind schedule and falling further behind.

If you were to publish your experiences to a peer-reviewed scientific
publication, everybody would tell you "need more data". 50 job applications is
simply not enough, and 7 onsites nowhere near enough. If the search is
grueling and bumming you out, maybe let up a bit, take a month or two
breather, and try to focus on higher quality at the beginning of the funnel
(if you're not thrilled about the job, don't waste any time on it).

~~~
dorfsmay
I'm in a much more technical role, so it might be different, I agree that 50
application is low, but 7 onsites with no result seems high. My experience is
that by the time a company brings you on site, you're in the 3 candidate, or
even the only one and this is the last check.

~~~
LoSboccacc
I've had lot of one sites going wrong, as anecdotal as it might be, I mostly
changed jobs by a connection bringing me in and once by just a phone
screening.

------
okabat
I work in product management and have been an interviewer in hiring cycles for
a number of functions: product management, engineering, design, data science,
legal, QA, marketing.

Candidates for product management, more than any of the other functions, are
often strong but a wrong fit. PMs at B2B companies do very different tasks
than PMs at consumer web companies. There are a lot of skills that go into
product management, and different companies have very different opinions of
their relative value. Look at the component skills: customer empathy, process
refinement / project management, technical understanding, data manipulation
skills, strategy/business, lateral/upwards management, and vision setting. For
leaders, there's also org design and hiring. Almost nobody is super strong at
all of these. Where are you strong and where are you weaker? What do the
companies you're hiring for actually need?

I'd recommend getting tighter on your criteria for your next job. If you
ruthlessly self evaluate, you'll probably realize there are only a few
companies out there that can perfectly leverage your experience, so think
about what you want to learn and consider lowering your "level" expectations
(if you're looking at director positions, look at first-level manager or
senior IC instead) to broaden your experience. 15 phone interviews to 7
onsites is solid, but 50 applications to 15 phone screens is low. Most
companies are going to be very cautious when hiring external senior PM
managers, so consider a stronger emphasis on networking to evaluate fit and
the company's needs, so you can tailor your interview to demonstrate the right
skills.

You said the feedback is often "interview for a different role". Did you
interview for those other roles? What's different about those roles from the
one you want?

~~~
jbl
I also work in product management and couldn't agree more with okabat's
comment. PM means so many different things in so many different places.

One thing to try... if the shop isn't probing you to find out what _you_ want
to do as a PM, then you need to be probing the shop to find out what they're
looking for.

------
dpweb
You could have a problem with your interviewing. You may want to get someone
you trust and will give you HONEST feedback to mock interview you and get some
feedback. The companies turning you down, you're not going to get any useful
info from them.

That and just keep trying. Its a numbers game though, if you aren't getting
any offers there must be something wrong with your interviews.

~~~
amenghra
> The companies turning you down, you're not going to get any useful info from
> them.

My understanding is that companies won't give you feedback because they are
afraid to get sued. So don't expect any feedback from them. Read some
books/websites on how to improve your skills and do a few mock interviews.

If you can get on the other side of the table by interviewing candidates at
your current job, it might help build confidence.

------
bsvalley
You should seek advice from people who are looking for jobs right now, or
people who got freshly hired (within the last 2 months). If you listen to
people who aren't in the market now then you won't hear anything relevant.
Things change, the market moves up and down, if you're not in it then you're
disconnected from reality.

Reality is - it is not a candidate's market anymore for many reasons. It is
early 2017, things have changed since the end of last year. The amount of jobs
available hasn't changed but the number of candidates has raised
significantly. It is extremely high and will remain high until April, when
visa applications will stop, as well as a lot of other high profiles who won't
be on the market anymore. Right now companies are super picky and treat
candidates like crap. They line up 10 interviews, give you assignments after a
few calls and an onsite. They reject you even if you haven't failed any tests,
etc.

Give it a month or two and it'll come down. You're not doing anything wrong,
it's just that a lot of very very good candidates are out there right now
looking for jobs. You might be a second/third pick since they bring you
onsite.

~~~
JajaMan
Can you elaborate on the visa thing?

~~~
bsvalley
Sure, I'm referring to the H1B visa. Applications start on April 1st and
usually end a day after (when the economy is good like this year). After they
reach their quota the visa application shuts down until April next year.

So from January to March companies also look at candidates who need
sponsorship. If you already have an H1B it doesn't count, this is only for new
applications.

Though, this year Trump will change everything on April 3rd. Premium
processing (15 days) will be stopped, which will make H1 visa transfers harder
and more painful for companies. We're talking about a few months to transfer a
visa from one employer to another. If you're an H1 holder, you will most
likely be stuck with your current employer because companies will never wait a
few months for you to start.

With that being said, in April the job market will settle down a little bit.
Less candidates and maybe even more jobs out there.

------
dahart
The most common reason I've turned down very qualified candidates is that they
didn't appear to want the job very badly, relative to other candidates, and
didn't seem willing to extend much effort to appear interested in the job they
were applying for.

Some very experienced applicants seem to assume their experience weighs so
heavily that their chances of getting the job are better than anyone else's,
and that there's nothing else they can do to get the job aside from fill out
the form and show up for the interview.

I've had very experienced candidates come to an interview and complain about
their current jobs, and complain about how stupid all the young inexperienced
kids around them are. I love hiring experienced people, but that is a total
turn-off, and an indicator that this person will not try to work with others,
will not fit in, and generally will not perform well.

You mentioned that you hate your current job. So my question is whether you're
knowingly or unknowingly communicating that during your interviews. Even if
you're not saying it out loud, one's demeanor, body language, tone, excitement
level, etc. can all expose someone who's unhappy doing what they're doing, and
presenting yourself as unhappy being a PM is - in my experience - the worst
thing you can do.

Some other ways experience can work against you include that your salary is at
the high end so employers feel they can get equally good work for less money,
and that your experience has hardened you in the operating procedures of other
companies. Employers want to feel that you're open to adapting, willing to
learn, and will go out of your way to shed any old dogma you have that doesn't
fit, and adopt new dogma that benefits the new company. A PM job also involves
a lot of rallying people, so you have to come off as a person who's able to
tell a good story and convince others to do what you need and follow your
lead.

Good luck to you, and please keep in mind that nobody here knows what's wrong.
It could be you or could be racial or could be a bubble job market in the area
you're applying... all of these things are absolute speculation. Your question
doesn't have enough information for anyone to know.

~~~
coldtea
> _The most common reason I 've turned down very qualified candidates is that
> they didn't appear to want the job very badly, relative to other candidates,
> and didn't seem willing to extend much effort to appear interested in the
> job they were applying for._

So no ass-kissing, looking desperate or acting over-eager at working for some
random company out of tens of thousands of other companies like it was a dream
coming true?

~~~
l_t
Nobody said anything about that. The point is, even if you have experience,
you can't phone it in during the interview.

If you aren't likeable, many people won't want to hire you no matter how
experienced you are. It's just basic psychology.

~~~
coldtea
Asking that people should "appear to want to job very badly" (and on a later
comment changed to suggest they should be "dying for the job") is not merely
about not phoning it it, or not being likeable.

~~~
l_t
Well, I think there is a semantic difference between saying that they "don't
appear to want it very badly" and stating that they "should appear to want it
very badly". If someone seems diffident, you might say they don't want the job
very badly, right? But you wouldn't say that about someone who seemed excited
about it. It's just an idiom. You have to show _some_ interest, but you don't
have to be desperate.

About the "dying for the job" comment, though, I agree that is going too far.
Personally, I think you should project a positive attitude about both your
previous job, and about the possibility of working at the new place. But never
act in a way that implies you aren't on equal footing with the interviewer. It
should be a discussion, not a petition.

------
throw_away_777
The lack of feedback from interviews is definitely one of the most frustrating
parts. But remember that the success rate for onsite interviews is around
20-50% depending on company (companies don't publish this stat, but see for
instance [https://www.quora.com/How-many-people-who-take-the-Google-
on...](https://www.quora.com/How-many-people-who-take-the-Google-onsite-
interviews-end-up-getting-the-job)). Even if you had a success rate of around
50%, you would fail 7 onsite interviews around 1% of the time - which is
unlikely, but unlikely things do happen. So my advice would be to keep trying
- getting 7 onsite interviews is a good sign. Also try to figure out what
areas of interviewing did not go well and improve on those areas.

------
enknamel
I've noticed a definite increase in companies doing bait and switches. They
list higher level positions to attract good people and then try to offer them
lower level positions. That's been my experience.

~~~
jghn
We don't do this but it might appear that way to a candidate. We're hiring
people of all levels and if someone comes in who we feel we like but at a
lower level we'll offer them that level instead.

~~~
enknamel
My experience inside and out of companies has been that this tactic is
employed quite a bit. I really dislike it but it's the truth. Everyone wants a
top notch team and sometimes the only way to get amazing people in less
amazing roles is to bait and switch them. You are getting someone who is
likely zero risk and will be highly successful in a lower role. And if you
ever actually need someone in the higher level role you have someone who can
do it.

~~~
watwut
"And if you ever actually need someone in the higher level role you have
someone who can do it."

Assuming that person stays long enough. I would expect either high turnover or
low morale in such workplace. Partly because people resent being lied to and
this is apparent, partly because the company is full of people on positions
they did not wanted to do.

------
jerkstate
I work in a different job role than you but I can relate to your lengthy
search. I was in a senior leadership position prior to taking about a year
off. When I wanted to go back to work I did a lot of interviews. I was
starting to think that I should apply for more junior positions or take a pay
cut, but I went back and hit the books pretty hard and really reviewed all of
the interview prep stuff for my field, like studied intently for several
weeks. I lined up interviews with 3 top companies in the same week and got 2
offers, and I'm very happy with my new job. So don't give up hope, but make
sure you are as well prepared as you possibly can be.

~~~
newman314
Can you get into more detail re interview prep?

------
hluska
I'm sorry that you're going through this.

You mentioned that the feedback you've received has always suggested that
you're a great candidate, but they see you in a different role. What kind of
role is it? And, is it possible that that role really may be a better fit for
you?

If so, you have a choice. Either change careers or try to take corrective
action and become a better fit for a PM gig.

Good luck and again, I'm very sorry. Feel free to email me - my address is in
my profile.

------
uberduber
I had a very similar experience as you with interviewing and feedback. Some
places I felt did genuinely find a better fit and would provide some
specifics, others were oddly evasive when I tried to question them further.

I eventually figured out that in many cases they had an internal candidate
that they were going to hire and they were interviewing you to satisfy some
requirement.

At the onsite, when they ask if you have any questions at the end, I now
always ask how I stack up to the other candidates and listen to that. If they
don't mention anything, I will follow up with "Do you have any internal
candidates?" and often they will just casually mention, "Oh yeah, Steve's
great, he'd make a good PM."

Now when I follow up for feedback I would say 80-90% sound genuine about
better fit and will usually explain why. Before I would say it was around
50/50\. So it's possible in your 7 interviews, 3 or 4 of them weren't real,
and they did find a better fit for the others which doesn't sound as abnormal.

------
white-flame
> _" You are a great candidate, and we would like you to interview with this
> other role. But this particular role is not a good fit"_

If that's common, then your sales pitch for yourself isn't targeting the job
you're applying for. You need to downplay some of your prior accomplishments,
if they're tied to whatever the "other" tends to be, and play up more of
what's focused on the particular role you have, even if it's weaker.

------
MarkMc
Just keep trying. You have just been unlucky so far.

A lot of success comes down to dogged persistence. Here's a great book on the
subject: [https://www.amazon.com/dp/B010MH9V3W/ref=dp-kindle-
redirect?...](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B010MH9V3W/ref=dp-kindle-
redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1)

~~~
henryw
I just finished the book on audible. I highly recommend it. Here are my notes
for it, but don't let this substitute the book.

Talent x effort = skill

Skill x effort = achievement

Grit is required in life. Watch out for claims of otherwise

Grit is not just working hard, but sticking to it for months. Doing what you
love and staying in love.

There's a pyramid of goals. Concrete ones on the bottom, like getting up at
8am. As you move up, it gets more abstract. The very top one is the ultimate
goal. Grit is holding the same ultimate goal without changing for a very long
time.

Grit means doing mid and lower level support goals. "Positive fantasizing"
(not focusing on lower and middle level goals) is people without grit do.
Short term payoff is feeling good with long term cost of failing.

Story of Buffet's advise: write down 25 career goals. Circle top 5 and do
them. Actively ignore others as distractions. Point is time is limited.

Expect to change low level goals. Keep the ultimate goal in mind. Improvise,
adapt, overcome.

Grit grows. 70 year olds grittier than 20 year olds. Grit can change.

Grit stages: interest (love doing), practice to be better (improve) than
yesterday for years (zero in on weakness), purpose so that work matters (to me
and others), and hope (in every stage) so that we get up when knocked down.

People are happier and perform better when their work fit their interest.

Practice: set a stretch goal in one weak area. Seek out challenges not yet
met. Seek feedback on what's wrong. Repeat.

Deliberate practice at most one hour at a time, 3-5 hours per day. Deliberate
practice is not the same as flow. Challenge above skill level. Requires a lot
of effort.

Grittier people experience more deliberate practice and flow. Practice is not
supposed to be fun. More effortful practice is more enjoyable (thrill of
getting better).

Flow is when not analyzing because most feedback are positive. Deliberate
practice is for preparation and flow is for performance.

Quality of deliberate practice is more important than length. 3-5 max hours
per day.

Develop a habit of practice, a routine. The author describes rereading last
days draft to start off the day. If there's a routine, getting started to
practice is easy to start.

Don't be ashamed to make errors. Important to practicing. Emotion-free mistake
making.

Purpose starts off selfish, but later must effect other people. Evolutionary
roots in both for happiness. People who cooperate are more likely to survive
than loners.

Reflect how work help society.

Hope in grit means believing my effort will make tomorrow better. Own efforts
can improve the future. I resolve to make tomorrow better.

It isn't suffering that leads to hopelessness, it is suffering that one cannot
control.

The optimist are just as likely to encounter bad events as pessimists. But
optimists search for temporary causes for the suffering. Pessimists assume
permanent causes to blame.

Pessimists say "I'm a loser", a permanent situation. Optimists say "I
mismanaged my time," fixable issues.

Pessimists more likely to be depressed and less healthy.

Optimists think of failures as lessons.

Subjective interpretation to objective events give rise to feelings.

CBT aims to treat by helping people to think more objectives by observing self
talk and change the bad behavior.

When you keep searching for ways to better the situation, you stand a better
chance of finding them. When you stop searching, you are guaranteed to not
find them.

Failure is a cue to try harder.

No road is without bumps. Having a growth mindset (believe intelligence is
changeable), you believe you can learn to do better. Growth mindset students
are much grittier. The opposite is a fixed mindset about intelligence.

People who believe it is their effort rather than natural talent are grittier.

People often have both mindsets. It's important to watch self when slipped up
and bring the right mindset.

Grittierness requires recognizing that people get better.

The quote "what doesn't kill us makes us stronger" is only partially true.
Only by believing we are in control to try to make things better is it the
case. Finding a way out of the suffering is what makes us stronger.

Growth mentality leads to optimistic self talk, leading to perseverance over
adversity. Starts with belief of being able to improve intelligence, which is
proven true. Next is to practice optimistic self talk.

Best parenting style is authoritative and supportive.

Students with 2 years of the same extracurricular activity has higher grit and
success later in life.

Rats that have to work to get food last longer at other harder tasks. Learned
industrialness. Applies to humans.

Use group conformity to build grit by being around gritty people.

~~~
mrg3_2013
Appreciate you sharing the notes. I am going to keep this handy

~~~
seppin
is there a site / service that provides these types of notes for non-fiction
books?

------
MilnerRoute
I was having trouble getting an offer about 10 years ago. I finally just
picked a second geographic area, and eventually was able to find a job there.
I'll never know for sure, but it's possible that the market in the Bay Area
was just over-saturated with good candidates at the time of my job search. So
don't get discouraged; it's not that you're not a great candidate. It could be
that there's just not enough good jobs.

Also, do you not want to interview for that other role they're offering you?
If so, that's fine -- but then feel good about the fact that you're the one
making that choice.

------
telebone_man
If you're not a good a fit then, you're not a good fit!

I will say, in my experience, a companies interpretation of what a Product
Manager sometimes varies like British weather.. It can feel like a Product
Manager is something new, but they've existed in their traditional capacity
for AT LEAST 25 years (using a friend of mine as an example).

But recently I've seen a trend for Product Manager job descriptions to vary
more.. Sometimes being so vague as to describe some sort of wistful 'jack-of-
all-trades turd-polisher'.

Perhaps it's as simple as that. You're applying as an experienced Product
Manager to businesses that don't understand the role as a veteran like you
does.

You also describe yourself as a Product Manager 'leader'. So you manage other
Product Managers? I would think that 'smaller companies' have very few or even
one Product Manager, and maybe you're seen as overqualified for this?

Good luck.

------
dbg31415
Look man, getting hired as a Product Manager has a lot to do with personality.
It's a role where you are perpetually having to explain, advocate, and
negotiate on behalf of various interests. If you don't find a way to make
everyone feel like you are on their side during the interviews... if you talk
over the head of a VP, if you don't know about the tech, if you don't manage
to sound confident in all your dealings... they may just say, "Gosh, we got
this guy with 3 years experience... let's give him a go... he's a lot
cheaper."

There's certainly a funk that PMs go through... mid-30s sounds about right. If
you aren't getting jobs through connections by your mid 30s... it's going to
be REALLY hard to land jobs. Don't forget you're competing against people
here... 5, 10, 25... who knows. So you may not be doing anything wrong, you
may just not be that top 4% for that one role. That one role isn't all
roles... each company is going to need something a little different. So just
keep trying.

If you can, find a PM who is a little more senior than you -- someone you
trust -- and do a mock interview with them so they can give you their
feedback. Ideally this would be someone you meet through a friend of a friend
so they can be objective as possible.

Have faith in yourself and others will too. Finding the right job take time.

------
rezashirazian
I think your resume is probably more impressive than your ability to
interview. Learning to be impressive on interviews is difficult. I would
suggest trying out a less impressive resume so you don't lead into your
interview with too much of a high standard.

~~~
thinkmassive
Or keep the resume, since that really leads to initial screens (which he's
passing), and learn how to interview better. Like other commenters mentioned,
it would help to know the other positions being offered and how they compare
to his current+desired positions.

------
appreciateya
Hey OP. Sorry to hear about your unsatisfactory experiences. Sounds like
you've had a successful career-- Don't feel down. Remember everything you've
accomplished. To unsuccessful plebs without solid careers like myself, and I
don't even know ya-- you sound pretty damn successful already. That's
something to be proud of.

Opportunity could be just around the corner. Don't give up now! What if it's
that 8th or 9th interview that leads to the position you want? Persevere! You
could be super close to the end of the race--i.e. to getting the job you're
looking for!

For me at least, sometimes opportunity comes when I least expect it, or when I
am feeling most down on my luck...

Just out of curiosity-- Why don't you like the product management position?

I have friends for whom 'product management' is their ultimate dream job,
hence I am curious about your experiences. I guess the grass is always
greener.

What sort of product? What sort of company? What are the major downsides in
your view, which are causing you to be depressed?

------
ChuckMcM
So there are a lot of good comments here for you to consider, a couple of
things stand out.

1) You're perception of yourself and other's perception of you appears to be
different. This can occur for a couple of reasons, either your resume says
you're something that people don't see when you talk to them in person, or
people around you are giving feedback about you that doesn't match what you
believe their feedback would be.

In a company setting you can get a "360" review which is basically a survey
about you that you take, people who either report to you or are your
"customers" take, people who work with you take, and the people you work for
(your boss and perhaps their peers). Those exercises, suitably anonymous, can
be really helpful in pinning down mismatches between what you think and what
others think. The bigger the gap the bigger the problem.

2) A big influence in person to person interviews can be how you take
responsibility and give credit. I interviewed a guy once who was great on
paper, really knew his stuff when it came to interview questions, but all of
the people who interviewed him mentioned that at some point in the interview
he spent some time talking about how another person at a former company
"screwed him" or "had it out for him" or "sabotaged the project" Etc. Every
time the project that wasn't successful was somebody else's problem. I'm sure
he wanted us to see him as not the problem in past failures, but instead by
blaming everyone else and not taking any of the responsibility he seemed like
someone who wasn't a team player. Nobody wants to work with someone who will
turn on them if the project is behind schedule.

I don't have any idea if either of those things apply to you so please don't
take it personally if I got it all wrong. Good luck with your job search.

------
physcab
How are you interviewing? Have you tapped into your network? Do you have past
co-worker friends who have left and found jobs elsewhere?

Most companies value referrals much higher than unknown applicants. If you
have a friend who can vouch for your work ethic and can give you straight
forward feedback, that will be the best route. You'll iterate much quicker.
Also friends may give you insight on the inside of their companies about how
decision-making is going. Once you have sizable work experience and sizable
network, you shouldn't be doing the shotgun approach. In my very first job I
reached out to a 3rd party recruiter and they helped me get a job in 2 weeks
from me doing it on my own for 2 months (not a software dev). After that, my
jobs have all been referral based.

------
whineBuster
Nothing is wrong with you.

It's neat, your answer is in your question. These companies are coming back
and saying they have a different role for you.

Yet, instead of being curious for a change, you turn them down? Bizarre.

Perhaps you don't want change after all, since your skillset is similar, they
probably want to help you.

------
echo419
Hrmmmm, I'm interviewing now for general helpdesk roles in my area, and my
numbers for comparison are as such: 172 Applications 14 Interviews 4 Onsite 2
Offers

I very much understand your frustration with the job market and how things go,
because before I was in my current location, I sent out 200+ applications and
got 2 interviews with no responses. The cop out advice is to just keep trying,
but I would echo sentiments to find a set of friends to interview you in panel
interviews and one on one and see what kind of feedback they give, or if you
can do better and get a friend of a friend to do it, that may be better since
they don't explicitly know you and may give you more constructive criticism.

------
gregshap
1) Are you discussing in the interview that you HATE your current job? That is
likely somewhere between a 'yellow' and a big red alert, depending on how you
describe it and what prior beliefs the interviewer has about your
company/industry.

Let's say you interview pretty well overall, and the interviewer guesses that
there's a 80% chance that your previous company is really that bad, but a 20%
chance that you are the toxic personality.

In general, a smaller company filling one of its few leadership roles will
have less stomach for risk, so any real or perceived warning signs can be
grounds for rejection. Even more so if they are small and not growing very
quickly.

2) 7 interviews without an offer doesn't mean you are damaged goods, but you
didn't mention any feedback or learnings from those 7 interviews. Its ok to
ask how you did at the end of an interview. Even without that, what are they
telling you without telling you?

* Statement questions like "so it sounds like you don't have direct experience with X?" or "is there a reason why you didn't do Y?" * Enthusiasm/body language changes during the interview - whats the topic when they occur? * Leadership questions like "that does sound like a problem, what did you do to address that?" * Do you feel like you are doing well with some interviewers but not others? peers, senior leadership, engineers, direct reports... they are grading different things

------
jwilliams
If the companies are worth their salt, they should be giving (or willing to
give) you detailed feedback. _Especially_ if you got to a face-to-face
interview. If they don't, then I'd consider that a lucky miss.

First step would be to ask, at least, the 7 on-sites for feedback. If it's
insufficient, ask for more. Explain that you're having trouble at the last
hurdle and that their feedback will help. Take that feedback and integrate it
in to your approach. Getting feedback can be difficult, especially when it's
just you. Consider giving it to some friends and/or mentors to get a clearer
view. Choose someone that can bring the most amount of objectivity.

Otherwise... Attend some meetups. Consider blogging and producing some
content. Build a profile that projects where you want to be (you should
consider, a little, what that might be). If you're passionate and visible in a
domain, combined with good skills and experience, then you're gold to these
organizations. Often they will come to you.

Also consider being proactive to companies that you want to work for. Engage
and see if they have any jobs. Many roles get filled without a Job Description
seeing the light of day. Part of doing the above should achieve that.

Finally, consider tackling the problem in a structured way. Interview for a
job that's well within your capabilities. Apply for roles that stretch you.
These give you a broader understanding on the needs out there in the market
(and hopefully what you're capable of).

Good luck.

~~~
SeanBoocock
"If the companies are worth their salt, they should be giving (or willing to
give) you detailed feedback. _Especially_ if you got to a face-to-face
interview. If they don't, then I'd consider that a lucky miss."

Really? It's been my experience that companies will not give feedback, at
least anything that could be considered detailed feedback, as a blanket
policy. The perception at least is that giving feedback opens up the company
to potential litigation and provides the company no benefit.

~~~
cookiecaper
Yeah, this has been my experience. The one time I got a company to provide
feedback, it was that I "didn't seem assertive enough", which really couldn't
be further from the truth (I'm usually getting in hot water for being _too_
assertive), so I assume that it was a randomly chosen from a grab bag of
meaningless-but-legally-sanitized "useful feedback" phrases.

Even if someone does provide feedback, it usually can't be trusted, and often
times, interviewers can't even articulate why they're passing certain
candidates.

~~~
abraae
We do recruitment software, and one of the features that just never seems to
take life is asking managers why they have rejected a candidate - even though
that would be extremely useful for fine tuning the process.

It seems people just don't like to be pinned down.

~~~
mjevans
It probably boils down to feelings, which seems unfair to introverts and those
who tend to undersell themselves (but is probably how 'society' works).

~~~
cookiecaper
Yeah, when you're interviewing and have more than one technically qualified
candidate, you pick based on "culture fit", i.e., "do they seem likeable?"

A freeform box for rejection rationale will probably never get a good response
rate, because it's work for people to make up a plausible-sounding explanation
for why they liked someone else more (and this explanation is rarely if ever
reflective of reality; people make up intellectually-satisfying stories to
justify their impulsive/emotional decisions). However, a radio box that
offered rejection reasons like "bad technical fit", "bad culture fit", or
"good candidate for the future; not enough slots right now" may see better
response rates.

------
natch
1) Look on the bright side. You have a current job.

2) How do you present yourself? Are you easy to talk to, relaxed, comfortable,
confident?

3) Are you well qualified in the areas you are targeting? I'm not just talking
about the job function, product management. I'm talking about the specific
ecosystem of the products (web, mobile, cloud, hardware devices, etc.) and
which industry segment (medical, energy, transportation, etc.)

4) Related to that, if you do have a specific area of expertise, maybe try
going after just that area.

5) Really hope this is not part of it, but do you live in a bigoted or
(sometimes a different thing) a non-diverse part of the country? If yes, that
could be one piece of the puzzle. Not with every interview, but some of them.
For that case, short of moving somewhere else, I guess it's mostly out of your
hands. Again hopefully it's not this.

6) You didn't mention if you ended up interviewing for the other role they
suggested, and if not, why not. Seems like they are offering you a chance to
get in the door, so maybe you're just blind to what is being offered. You
didn't say what was wrong with the other roles.

In any case to find out if it's related to question 2 above, maybe you should
do some practice interviews with local friends or better yet experienced
coaches. Could be eye opening if they are willing to give you frank feedback.

------
raincom
When I was working at a start up (not in the league of FAGM), which was just
going to IPO 3 months later, I found on a network share a file that contained
interview feedback for different people. Thats what companies do when they
interview a dozen for a job; they compare candidates against each other. This
info is not given out to the public. I can recall two profiles from that file:
one, white with an MBA from Kellogg; the other, Indian with an MBA from
Cornell. They picked the Kellogg guy as a contractor for first three months,
later converted him into full time. That's when I realized I should not get an
MBA, since I won't get admitted to H/S/W MBA programs, even tho these schools
tell everyone to apply in order to reduce the acceptance rate.

The other issue is the kind of job you have: product management. Every guy in
IT wanna move up; so, the first thing was told to these guys to get an MBA.
(Now we have morning, evening and day time MBAs, on campus and off campus
MBAs. Even Wharton is called MBA factory these days.) So, we have a glut of
candidates in the product management.

Top tier start ups don't like to deal with non-elite candidates. Here,
eliteness = which MBA school one went to--whether Stanford/Harvard/Wharton;
which company did he work for, if any. I remember a guy here, who worked at
Yahoo in product mgmt; he is not white, but born in America; he did not not
have an MBA from H/S/W, but from somewhere else. FB interviewed him and
rejected him later. I know of one who graduated from Stanford GSB, and joined
FB in the product management just before FB went to public.

Product management jobs at top companies like Google and Facebook look for
eliteness. So, just start talking to people, and get some referral and see how
it goes.

------
dsjoerg
I had to look up FOB. Didnt get much help here;
[http://www.acronymfinder.com/FOB.html](http://www.acronymfinder.com/FOB.html)
But I'm guessing you meant
[http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Fob&defid=333...](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Fob&defid=3330925)

------
joeax
Look at the patterns. You are in a "product management" role yet you hate it.
You are interviewing for a similar role, and they are all signaling that you
are not a good fit. My guess is you are telegraphing to these prospective
employers that you are desperate, that you will take whatever is out there.

Perhaps it's time for a career change. If you are not made for software
engineering, perhaps QA? Maybe you strive for something more technical, maybe
scrum master? Technical writer? Graphic designer? Technical evangelist? Sales
engineer?

These are things only you know. Perhaps taking a personality assessment, or
scanning blogs for career ideas are steps you can take. Maybe answering this
question: If you could be an expert at anything, what would that be?

P.S.: I don't believe it is your accent, or your ethnicity. I've interviewed
plenty of Indians, Russians, and Eastern Europeans over the years. If they can
code and/or know their stuff, they get the job.

------
alexpritchett
It sounds to me like you're analyzing your job-hunting process like one would
a sales funnel. You're probably thinking that if you put in enough into the
top of the funnel, then you're bound to get a closed deal out of the bottom.

My recommendation would be to identify a handful of companies that you'd
really want to work for and instead invest heavily in building relationships
with people connected to those companies. Attend meetups at the company's
office, reach out to employees on linkedin to chat, or find out who the hiring
manager is and see if they'd be willing to speak with you over the phone.

During my limited time as a hiring manager, I've experienced the impact that a
pre-existing relationship has on the hiring process. Even if I've only had a
coffee or phone conversation with someone, they're almost always guaranteed a
better shot at landing a job than if they apply cold.

------
throwawayxysd
I was in exact same situation until a week ago. Indian, mid 30s, 4-past
companies, 15+ interviews, 7+ onsites and only one went fine. On top of it, I
was going through a layoff. I may be able to offer some insight. Lets talk
over the weekend. Email in profile. (I am on engineering side)

Keep two things in mind 1) You are the interviewer's bitch. They can ask any
and every question from your resume. And in product management, all questions
are subjective. 2) Interview is not reflection of your on job performance, its
a reflection of how much you can convince a new guy. You only have to convince
one company unlike sales people who have to convince someone every single
time.

But, looking at what you have written, my guess is that your leadership aspect
is not showing up well. Atleast, thats what happened to me.

------
oldjobhunter
Take some time off. Instead of getting frustrated at your current job and
doing something rash like quitting without a backup plan, take a week or two
off from work asap. Give yourself some breathing room.

Think about why you're being rejected - you have just not yet found the job
that fits you. So keep looking. It's hard but it will happen. Be positive yaar
:)

You also should think of the people in your network who work at companies
you're interested in. Finding a good role once you cross a certain threshold
is difficult, is it possible that you have high standards and are looking down
on some of the interviewers?

Forget about being Indian. If you don't care about it, you'll only be focused
on what you bring to the table. You don't want to work in a team where race
matters anyway.

------
johnmc408
In this market, switching industries can be difficult. If the goal is to
switch industries, get in at a (slightly) lower position and work up.

Otherwise, try to stay in the same industry and go for a company that isn't as
well known and where your experience would be especially helpful.

What are those "other roles"? How much of product marketing vs product
management vs project management vs people management do you currently do? For
the "other role" what is the same vs different to what you currently do (not
what your job title is, but what you do)?

I feel you will get the best insight if you take a look at the differences
between your current day to day tasks and the tasks for the "other roles".

I also think that interviewing for a leadership PM position is much more
difficult...

------
dbcurtis
A lot of people are suggesting talking to a friend, which is good. But at your
level you might consider a short engagement with an executive coach. 3 or 4
hour long sessions might give you a new attack on the problem and some ideas
on how to present yourself differently.

~~~
jerkstate
This is a pretty good idea. I was surprised how helpful an executive coach was
to talk to when you're having a work problem and you're not sure what to do.
I'm not sure how to find one outside of a corporate-sponsored management
coaching program, though.

------
slantedview
> You are a great candidate, and we would like you to interview with this
> other role

What is the other role companies are suggesting you for? Perhaps your resume,
which is helping you get so many PM interviews, doesn't match with where your
experience actually is. That's not to say you don't have valuable experience,
but it may not align with the role you think it does at other companies even
if, in theory, the titles are the same.

Another way to put it, maybe your current PM role and experience is, for some
reason, misaligned with what it means to be a PM at the companies you're
interviewing with?

------
soheil
The fact that you're getting onsites after phone interviews is a good sign,
it's almost a 2 to 1 ratio. Although 7 onsites is not huge but is a sign that
something may not be working. Let's assume you're doing pretty decent on the
other fronts and the issue is with onsites. So here are some things that come
to mind that only apply to onsites:

\- team-fit: this is a big one specially for smaller companies, they wanna be
100% sure this new hire will be just like everyone else so they can all get
along, so next time you're doing an onsite do a quick look up of people you'll
be interviewing to find as much as about their hobbies, side-projects, etc. as
you can and talk about those things

\- your presentation: how you carry yourself and behave is another thing that
only applies to onsites, you gotta be confident or let your inner geek out if
that's who you are, acting super nervous and non-confident sends the wrong
signal

\- answering the questions the way they want you to, it might have been a
while since you last successfully interviewed and got a job so brush up on
what the trendy interview questions are for role nowadays, go to Glassdoor
look up similar roles and see what the questions were and what answers were
the best, you don't wanna deviate too far from those, but you gotta treat like
the ACT it's bs for the most parts but that'll determine if you end up at MIT
or the city community college.

~~~
navalsaini
Most of your suggestions are quite standard and do make sense. I think its a
little difficult to show that one will be a good team fit. (1) you are Indian,
coming from a very different culture (2) One can have more of an introverted
personality or a mixture of extrovert and introvert depending on who they are
talking to)... Are you an HR?

------
lIlIl
The biggest thing I look for in the later interviews is the candidates ability
to tell a story. Achievements, awards, schooling, and all that stuff aren't
very reliable (look at how many cars win "car of the year"). If a candidate
can go into detail about a particular event, that means they worked closely
enough to it to actually care enough to remember the details. If they can
explain the concepts I don't understand, that means they have a deep
understanding.

Other than that, there are some aspects of Indian culture that are daunting to
a potential employer. "How many people do you manage" is a common question to
get during arranged marriages. The American equivalent would be "how much
money do you make". It's a lot easier to pay someone more than give them more
people to manage. You really need to show that you've bought into the American
versions of self-worth, work ethic, and personal responsibility (that last one
may seem weird, but it's often the case in India that if someone forgets to do
something, you are the idiot for not reminding them).

P.S. Your stats honestly aren't that bad. People used to wallpaper their
rooms/corridors with rejection letters before things went digital. Getting
more perspectives never hurts though.

------
sharp11
Just to add one more perspective, and not making any assumptions, what have
you done to assess your accent? It's a really tough thing to self-assess.

Is it possible that it's heavier than you think? Depending on the role, if
your accent is heavy enough to add cognitive burden for listeners, it could be
part of what's holding you back. Fortunately, it's something that can be
addressed - it takes work, but it can be done!

------
mathattack
I've had job searches that lasted 3+ months, and involved several hundred
applications. Sometimes it just takes volume. A very talented friend had to
take 190 coffee meetings to find his job.

When you are fresh out of school, you're hired for general human capital. It's
many people chasing many jobs. The best people get many offers. When you're
later in your career, it's more of a matching problem.

Net - hang in there!

------
cjhanks
Product Manager is a position which is not always easily transferable.

As a software engineer these are the character traits I most value for a
product manager:

\- Knowledge about the history of a specific class of products; CAD, Mapping,
consumer electronics... whatever it is we are selling.

\- Capable of effectively translating customer needs to engineers.

\- Capable of effectively translating engineer concerns to customers.

\- The ability to prioritize requirements in succinct communication in both
e-mail and in person.

Unfortunately "12 years of well known brands" does not mean much to me unless
that experience is very closely related to the domain of the company. In a
parallel example; I am not going to hire an 12 year expert in kernel hacking
to build my SAAS payment system.

Unfortunately (for many people) software trends come and go fairly quickly.
Business models of yesterday become the pejoratives of today. If your specific
area of expertise has met such a fate... you need to re-tool.

Find a specific narrow niche in the larger business market and become an
expert in that 1 thing. Grow outwardly from there. But target it based on your
true personal interest... not what you think will be most profitable.

------
glenngillen
Would be happy to privately review your resume and do a mock screening call to
see if there's any constructive feedback I can give.

Email is me @ glenngillen.com

------
dlandis
> in most instances the feedback has been "You are a great candidate, and we
> would like you to interview with this other role. But this particular role
> is not a good fit"

What are the other roles? So you've had a bunch of instances where they're
eager to hire you it sounds like, and you hate your current job, so why no
grab one of those other, slightly different, opportunities?

------
mrg3_2013
This indeed can be frustrating. It might help to take a step back and see how
the onsite went. a) Think hard about how the onsite interviews went. Did you
get enough sleep and were you fresh ? How did you dress up ? Engineer roles
are quite forgiving in these aspects, but product management roles need not be
b) "Great candidate, wrong fit" is not necessarily an honest comment. Often it
means, they did not think you were fit for the right role - but they didn't
see any red flags so the comment is meant to allow you to apply for other
positions. Often companies have blacklist of candidates [for example, if the
interview went rather poorly, they cannot re-apply for a certain period of
time]. c) Do you explicitly say "I hate my job" or give the vibes that you are
desperately looking for a change ?

I suspect it may be your interview style and recommend asking a close
confidante about it. For PM type role, it is more about the ability to
influence and earning trust. Keep trying! We all have rough patches !

------
nakovet
With only these 3 paragraphs it's hard to tell what you are doing wrong, if
anything.

Like a few people said already, it's very likely that your resume is
overselling you, suggestion: remove the bells & whistles.

A few common "red" flags come to my mind: \- Tell me something you like about
your current job? Nothing. (Really, nada, zap, nothing?) \- Why do you want to
leave your current job? My manager sucks, my peers are the worst, yada yada.
(Blame others, have nothing good to say about your current job) \- Why do you
want to work with us? I like startups. (Shows zero research on the company,
area, industry). \- Tell me about a time you had a impossible deadline, what
did you do? I worked really hard and communicated effectively (Some utterly
vague response).

Find something you are excited about it, be genuine when applying (like
prepare a cover letter, explain what you would do in the first month on that
position, etc), be humble and show interest on the company, explain how you
will make a difference.

------
dokein
I've been in the process of hiring for product management person. Good
candidates (who get interviewed) often show great work experience, knowledge
about product management cycles, knowledge of the products they own,
leadership directing teams, etc. Really great candidates (who get hired)
usually have something extra: an unexpectedly deep engineering background
allowing them to understand the actual building process at a higher level,
non-trivial insights into customers' unexpressed needs (beyond surveys, data-
driven bullshit), etc.

To my view, the interview is to screen out the "business" types who are just
repeating or rehashing well-known processes you can get from watching a few
podcasts and read a couple books. Teach me something I do not know (I am not a
professional product manager, so if the person I am hiring cannot tell me
something novel then they shouldn't be a professional product manager either).

------
cavisne
In america it is super hard to give feedback to applicants, most mature
workplaces ban it, and instruct you to route any such requests through the
recruitment/HR team.

I think it sucks, but this is way to litigious a society for it to work any
other way.

It makes me wonder if there is some opportunity for a middle man service that
anonymizes the source of the feedback.

~~~
navalsaini
It should not be that difficult to give honest feedback to someone who came
onsite (from a different country) for the interview.

------
futhey
Fellow PM. It's really hard to get this feedback from people making a real
hiring decision, because any experienced HR professional knows the legal
liabilities of slipping up and saying the wrong thing, or mis-representing the
actual reason why you were not chosen for a position.

If I were in this position (I've done something similar for a friend in the
Design industry), I would:

1.) find someone in your LinkedIn network in a senior PM or PM management
position from your chosen industry, 2.) send them a few job reqs. from
positions where you have applied, your resume, etc. 3.) do a couple short mock
interviews (10m-15m) 4.) discuss patterns that emerge, and compare / contrast
your experiences in previous interviews.

Likely, this person can be totally upfront and honest about his/her
impressions, and how he would frame his hiring decision, or anything that may
jump out as to why you might be getting a lot of `NO`s.

Best of luck in the job hunt!

------
venture_lol
The ultimate product owner: Mike Row :) Talk like this guy the way he talks
about a pencil and everyone will want you

[http://americandigest.org/mt-
archives/5minute_arguments/mike...](http://americandigest.org/mt-
archives/5minute_arguments/mike_rowe_on_a_pencil.php)

------
NirDremer
In Yodas.com we've helped hundreds of developers to discover & connect with
opportunities. Even though it's not PM roles we gained enough experience that
I think would be helpful here.

I'm happy to jump on a call to learn more and give you honest feedback that
would hopefully be helpful.

Feel free to drop me a line - nir AT yodas.com

------
imd23
I did hundreds. Still alive. Got to work for the kind of company I really
wanted to work. PATIENCE. Lots of it.

------
brkpn
Something to avoid during a job interview is getting too carried away talking
about how much you HATE your current job/boss/role etc. You may not have done
that, but it's something to check for which can cause you to sound
demotivated/negative etc.

------
catshirt
hope i don't sound patronizing, just want to send a friendly reminder that
hating your job is, as we say, a good problem to have! :) and a normal one...
unfortunately.

that out of the way. not getting feedback is probably not an option at this
point. you need _honest_ feedback from someone who is able to _accurately_
evaluate your interview performance. i would be pressing for more honest
feedback in my interviews. it might help to humble up a little bit and explain
to them what you've explained to us. (post-rejection, of course...)

might be unorthodox but if i were you i would consider scrounging up 30 bucks
or something and soliciting an "interview consultation" on craigslist or some
Slack channels or something.

~~~
pacaro
On the "hating your job" thing, you really need to internalize better reasons
for wanting to change jobs. Desperation is as unattractive in a job interview
as it is in other areas of life.

Maybe focus on what attracts you to the company at which you're interviewing

------
feliciajune
Here's a tip: ask a lot of questions. It shows interest in the role, and keeps
your interviewer from asking questions you might get wrong or simply are
biased about regarding previous people they've worked with. Strategize. Your
interview is only so long.

------
ohstopitu
I don't want to discourage you, but those numbers are very good (7/50 onsite
means you got to almost the final stage and considering that you are not
applying for every job under the sun - this is a good number - 10/50 would be
a great number imo).

Don't give up now even though you feel like it!

While I don't have 12 yrs of experience as you do, I had almost 2 yrs of exp
leaving Uni and still had a hard time getting a job!

Just out of curiosity - are you looking for jobs at startups? and are they
located in SF/SV?

As a final point, from what I've been told it's a better idea to deal with
good recruiters instead. Maybe asking your colleagues for recruiter
recommendations and contacting them would get the results you are looking for.

------
wpietri
Interviews are tricky, and it will be very hard for us to guess what you're
missing.

In your shoes I'd hire somebody to do practice interviews with. Look either
for somebody who does that for a living or, perhaps better, a product
management consultant who will consult on your career.

One thought, though: it sounds like you're running from, not running toward.
When I'm interviewing product managers, key characteristics include excitement
for the domain and energy for the work. That's because they need to have
enough enthusiasm for what they're building to get everybody else charged up
too. If you're burnt out and just looking to escape, people may be spotting
that.

------
uniclaude
Simple questions :

\- Where are you based, and are you legally able to work where you're applying
without too much overhead? Sometimes a company may like you but not be willing
to jump through hoops after they realize how hard it will be to hire you, in
which case they still interview to check if your talent justifies the hassle.

\- Are you always on time, and always replying fast to emails? Lack of
punctuality hurts bad, especially in a management role.

\- Do you have a tendency to blame your current environment or your co-workers
in interviews? No one wants to work with someone who's going to blame them or
their company.

\- What do you answer to the classic "where do you see yourself in 10 years?"
Interview questions? This has a very strong impact on any large company.

\- How long did you stay in your previous and current gigs? Job hopping can be
a red flag.

\- Did you ever get to the salary negotiation phase? If so, were you the one
asking first? A candidate asking for too much might not look attractive.

\- What is the size of the organizations you apply to? Your experience might
not match what they're looking for.

\- How do you define product management? Product Management is such a wide net
(Design / Management / understanding of tech/...) that what you're currently
doing and what the companies are looking for might not match. This happens
more often than we could expect.

To anyone else reading this, but looking for a programming job (and not
product management like OP), add those questions to your list:

\- Do you contribute to open source? A lack of contributions will prevent your
interviewer from selling you properly to a team.

\- How good are you with algorithms and data structures on a whiteboard? This
is like a sport, and as backwards as it is, it is different from actual
programming, so you should actually train interviewing as a separate skill if
you're not proficient.

Finally, 15 interviews for 50 application is not terrible, answer those
questions honestly and you're probably going to do better!

------
the-dude
Are you mentioning in the process that 'you absolutely _hate_ your job' ?

------
free2rhyme214
I applied to over 500 jobs, had about 11 interviews, got rejected by 9 out of
11, and got rejected twice by the company I'm working for. (Once a hiring
freeze, once they didn't like me) To me, you're not applying enough.

Also I don't count phone interviews as interviews. Those are just to weed out
candidates from the in person interview.

Lastly, I think we're missing some info. You must be doing something odd on
the phone or you would've had an in person interview. Do you have any friends
in management who can do mock interviews with you to figure out what it is?

------
pcurve
I hate to go down this route, but can you describe your appearance / physical
style? What do you wear when you go in for interview? Do all the companies
that you apply to have your linked in profile?

------
1dundundun
Your depression and hatred of your current role is impacting your energy and
the impression you're making on people. Perceptive people pick up on that,
especially face to face. Change your outlook and also push for critical
feedback when they reject you. You have nothing to lose by asking every person
you interact with in the process for feedback after they've passed on you.
Some will ignore your request and some will offer you some actionable advice.
Change your outlook. It's going to work out. Good luck.

------
Kaizyn
Why don't you research the job agencies and find one that says it works with
candidates to help them with interviews and the like? Since the agency will be
paid only when you are placed in a good role, their incentives and yours would
be aligned. They would also have no reason to lie to you or hold back on the
feedback they received from the prospective employer.

Even if you go off on your own to find a job apart from the recruiter, the
advice they give you on candidate assessment will be invaluable feedback for
you.

------
navalsaini
I have a question for people here too. Lets say the company is a startup with
50 or lesser people and has most of the employees under age of 30 (and
western).

How prominent is the question that "Will s/he be able to fit into our
culture?" ... when it comes to hiring above 30 people out of India, with an
Indian accent? (..haha)

I may have thrown too many boxes there... disclaimer: I have been applying to
many such companies and I am above 30 Indian guy (with an accent) and many
times the company has most developers under 30.

------
late2part
You are not convincing them that you will be a good hire.

Your article talks about what you want and how you feel.

Consider what those companies want and how they feel and try to determine why
they failed to pick you over another candidate.

Talk to people you trust and ask for honest feedback on your weaknesses.
Compare those to the things you learned during the interview.

Improve your skill, your communication style, and your contacts.

Continue to drive for the role you want, you will get it when you shape
yourself into someone that can genuinely convince people you have the right
stuff.

------
avichal
It's hard to be helpful here without specifics. What sorts of jobs are you
applying for at which companies? What industry are you in? What are the brands
you've worked at before? What industry switch are you hoping to make? Do they
get to a background check stage or no? 7 offsites to 0 offers is a pretty
steep drop off but if, for example, you were only interviewing for VP of
Product at series A startups in the Bay Area backed by Sequoia and Benchmark,
then that's not unexpected.

------
Swizec
If you hate your current job, why would a company want to hire you for a
similar job?

The number of QA managers we rejected because they said they don't want to be
QA managers ... eesh.

------
TheSaaSGuy
Hi, fully understand your desire to move on from a frustrating situation. Good
luck, keep at it, man. Based on your post, it seems like you can land the
interview, including final in-person ones. I suspect your body language
probably communicates that you are too desperate. Hiring managers (consciously
and unconsciously) resist hiring folks when they sense desperation. My
recommendation to you is getting a coach to provide pointers for in-person
interviews.

------
giis
You mentioned about 4 companies - Are you in Indian Outsourced companies? Now
you trying to join startups? If so,sorry to say, there is wide spread
perception, most Indian outsourced managers are not technically good. I agree
with them too.

If you are one of those rare exception and technically sound person, then you
need to keep trying to overcome the general perception created by fellow
Indian managers. Good luck.

------
dorfsmay
The one thing that strikes me is "I hate my current job". If you can afford
it, have you given thoughts to take a different type of job at a lower level
(project manager, or something more technical), something where you are less
emotionally invested?

I'm wondering if you come across as hating your current job so much that you
are ready to take anything that will get you off you current job

------
dnautics
As an Asian male (overrepresented minority) remember that hirers are often
looking for any legal reason to not hire you. The standard employment
narrative does not apply to you.

You may have to beat it statistically (more interviews) or go with the
"unspoken" employment narratives - get hired by a friend, figure out how to
get someone to make a position for you.

------
gigatexal
Keep at it. Keep leveraging your network. Even people you interviewed with who
didn't call you back could be network potential. If there is racial bias you
have to keep persevering because you won't be able to change them, and the
alternative is a job you hate. Maybe you could look to move to a different
department within your current firm?

------
jbverschoor
Maybe you're depressed, and that is why you hate your job. I'm not sure how
your 'leadership' translates to all this. How can you properly lead the
product dept. when you hate your job and are depressed? And why would you want
to switch to the same job, the one you hate so much, but at a different
company?

------
laktek
Just curious what's your visa situation?

~~~
whatever_dude
This is what I'm curious about too. It's not clear if this is a factor in your
case. The Visa process can be an expensive and very long process, and I have
seen companies turning down great candidates because they can't afford to wait
a year to MAYBE get the candidate a visa.

------
bborud
First question: what is the feedback from the people you have interviewed
with?

Have you considered looking for jobs that aren't in product management? Do you
have any other strengths you could leverage? Could you learn and develop a
skill that would open up more jobs to you while at your current job (eg in
your spare time)?

------
stale2002
"You are a great candidate, and we would like you to interview with this other
role. But this particular role is not a good fit"

Why not interview for this other role?

It sounds like people like you. They want to hire you. But they perhaps they
want to hire you for a slightly different role. Why not consider this role?

------
throwthisawayt
How much product management experience do you have ? What type of companies
have you had PM experience at? What were you doing before product ?

It's very hard to get people to diagnose the problem online but maybe if you
give more details we can help you out. Otherwise reach out to a trusted
colleague.

------
0xcolton
Keep positive man - as you know so much of product development is about
feedback and iteration. I would really push your ex-interviewers or even the
recruiting folks to share their exact thoughts on what didn't go well - even
if you have to go through a few people to get the truth.

------
known
Hope it's not due to [https://qz.com/918834/indians-around-the-world-are-
realizing...](https://qz.com/918834/indians-around-the-world-are-realizing-
the-harsh-reality-of-trumps-america-first-policies/)

------
brown-dragon
What roles are you applying for? Perhaps there are other roles you would be a
better fit for and you could try applying for those.

Otherwise, as others say, just be persistent. Sometimes you have a run of bad
luck but it will pass. Don't read too much into it.

------
jmchuster
If you're willing to apply to another company (LocalMotion by Zipcar, San
Mateo, CA), I'll give you comprehensive honest feedback on your onsite,
whether or not you get the job. We're looking for more Product people.

~~~
JajaMan
Whats your email, sounds interesting.

~~~
jmchuster
jchu at zipcar dot com

------
skypather
This is not a rely to the original question. I just want to express my
surprise that so many people here giving comprehensive and insightful opinions
to the question. I earned a lot by reading these replies. Way to go guys!

------
snovv_crash
You're moving to a smaller company, so I hope your comp expectations are
smaller too.

This would be my first guess. Ask for less money. Even phone up places where
you were rejected and say your expectations have changed.

------
Kiro
I just think it's the nature of your field. The market for PMs is congested so
when you're actually recruiting a PM you can set the bar very high and still
expect a great number of applicants.

------
throw-away-3984
Was in a similar boat, also Indian, I don't know what the cutoff for FOB is, I
been hear 7 years now. This happened about 5 years back, after I learned this
one weird trick that I am about to espouse, I couldn't close interviews. Since
then I have been getting multiple offers each time I look for a job, and I am
currently in a senior role at a "Fortune 10 best places to work for”.

(Accent yes, but no one has asked me to repeat anything in many years. In
recent times folks have asked me if I was born in the US. So let's get that
out of the way)

Ok, what is the one weird trick. Its actually two.

1\. Know yourself: I wasn't really into software engineering, I was a
scientist, and I really wanted to get into SE because those jobs were more
abundant, esply when you are junior you can't crack into the scientist job
unless you have a Phd - I dropped out. When I am at an interview, I couldn't
help but convey that deep down I really didn't want this job. This will show,
you could pretend on the phone, its harder when in person. Folks still do it,
I couldn't. Understand who you are, and that you really want this job, you are
hungry for it. Go ahead and show it, let them feel your animal energy! For all
his faults, and almost all of his person is a fault, the current US president
has "raw animal energy” (RAE), which people like, love even. You can get a job
you are not even qualified for by just having this RAE. So get to know some of
that in your own personality.

2\. Dude(or girl) I can't stress this second point enough. One of the biggest
things that is different about Indian culture is this. In India if you are
confident and know a lot - you are trained to show that power by being Quiet.
Silent. Calm. This is the case with many cultures. It is not however the case
with American business culture. Please read my point above about bringing out
your animal awesomeness. In the US, I don't know how else to say this: being
bombastic is what will pass for confidence. (Bombastic from an Indian
perspective, of course it is just awesomeness from the American perspective).
Show your energy, jump around. I know, it will be very unnatural if you are
new to it. So I’d recommend acting classes like some of the other comments,
but I didn’t take any. I was able to channel my inner panda by just being
aware of this problem.

Think of your personality itself as having an accent. It is not a crime to
have an accent, but if you can tone it down, it helps everyone involved. This
is what you need to do. You have to not only be confident, you have also to
convey it effectively in the language of the culture you are in.

------
make3
Are you charming? Are you sociable? How is your appearance. Is your accent
really not that bad? You need to find honest feedback on these things. These
are a few things that can only be seen in person

------
amorphid
I was a technical recruiter for several years, and am now a software engineer,
doing both in San Francisco. If you'd like, I'd be happy to chat with you. My
email is in my profile.

------
philfra
If you hate your current job get away there as fast as you can. Maybe it's a
good start to get interviewed for one of the other roles as you said? Why not?

------
jacquelineo
What about checking out some sort of website like interviewing.io where you
will get assessment on your interview skills?

------
omegote
What does a product manager leader do? I mean "do" in the "actual
productivity" meaning.

------
tyingq
What is the alternate position you get offered? Product management, but at a
lower level?

------
rajacombinator
You're clearly not FOB based on your written English. Don't demean yourself.

------
nerdponx
Maybe spend a few bucks on a career counselor?

------
venture_lol
New term: Product Owner :)

------
NumberSix
How long have the onsite interviews been? An in-person interview with at least
three people and at least three hours total duration is what I call "a serious
interview." At least for software engineers, there seems to be a roughly 1 in
2 to 1 in 3 chance of a job offer if you get a "serious interview." In
general, shorter in-person interviews -- say one person for 1/2 to 1 hour are
not very serious and can have very low success rate, usually at best they lead
to a further "serious interview."

If all seven onsite interviews have been "serious interviews" then zero job
offers is a bit low, but still could be just bad luck: 1 chance in 2 to the 7
(128).

That said, mid thirties -- thirty-five to be exact -- is the age where
employees in the high technology industry start to report increased
difficulties finding jobs. Look around -- not a lot of people who _look_ over
thirty-five.

Very few companies seem to be looking for 10+ years of experience. Most job
postings on LinkedIn and other job boards will ask for 3-5 or 3-7 years of
experience. Some for ten years, but not that many. You state you have twelve
(12) years of experience.

It is difficult to know the reasons for this pattern in high tech. Probably
all of these contribute:

o conscious and sub-conscious age discrimination

o companies are looking for young people who can work long hours, unpaid
overtime. Overall stamina does decline with age. It is also harder to get more
experienced people to work _unpaid_ overtime as they recognize what is
happening -- aren't fooled by unrealistic schedules, manufactured crunches
over trade show appearances, and other deceptions and demand to be paid.

o Companies and managers feel threatened by employees who know a lot,
preferring young people with little or limited experience.

US born "native" white men with perfect English report same difficulties
frequently. It may have little to do with being Indian or having an accent,
although it is surely good advice to work on accent and mastery of American
English which differs in a number of ways from Indian English. Indian English
is derived from British English in the 1940's and 1950's that was taught in
missionary schools in India. There are a lot of web sites and blog posts now
on the differences between the two dialects.

Also, if you are on a visa like the H1-B, that can be an issue as well.
Probably easier to switch jobs with US permanent residency (green card) or US
citizenship.

If you are unhappy with your current job and have trouble leaving it, non-work
social activities, physical exercise, and sometimes meditation can be helpful.
Unfortunately, under stress it is very easy to cut back on social activities
and exercise, but actually you should do the opposite -- increase these --
under sustained stress.

Perhaps talk to some older product managers who are not trying to hire you,
colleagues rather than employers, about their experiences and what might be an
issue in the job hunt.

Good luck!

------
whineBuster
Patience?

------
jowiar
Regardless of whether you continue the job search or not, pick up that hobby.
I love my job, but non-work hobbies keep me sane. Relying on career to be the
sole provider of personal fulfillment is a recipe for an abusive relationship
with your job.

~~~
wenbert
Spot on!

I'm lucky enough that my day job isn't that stressful that I do not get
"burned out" when I get home to work on my personal projects.

I love my job and I love working with the people in the company. The culture
is very good and not toxic. However, trying something new or building
something fun, it is not possible always within the job. It's fixing bugs;
figuring out processes, etc. But as long as I am not burned out at work, I
still find a few hours every night to do something I really want.

Without my personal projects I would be bored to death.

------
toodlebunions
Work on your interview skills is my best guess.

