
Violated: A traveler’s lost faith, a difficult lesson learned  - foxit
http://ejroundtheworld.blogspot.com/2011/06/violated-travelers-lost-faith-difficult.html
======
brianchesky
Hey everyone - we were shocked when we heard about this unsettling event. We
have been working closely with the authorities, and we want to reassure our
community that, with the help of our security infrastructure, we were able to
assist the police in their investigation, and we understand from authorities
that a suspect is now in custody.

We've created a marketplace built on trust, transparency and authenticity
within our community, and we hold the safety of our community members as our
highest priority. We will continue to work with our users to stamp out those
who would put that community at risk in any way. The vast majority of our
community members genuinely respect and protect each other, but we urge users
to be careful and discerning with each other and to hold others accountable
through reviews, flagging and our customer service channel. Our hearts go out
to our host and we will continue to work with her and with the authorities to
make this right.

~~~
hammock
Emotionally devastating story, but it seems like there is an easy solution to
this. Have AirBnb contract include an insurance policy (superseding the
homeowners insurance) for the time of rental. Also, have Airbnb keep credit
card info on hand and hold guest responsible for any damage. Pretty standard
business practices.

~~~
mikecaron
What about regular homeowner's insurance? Surely there can be policies that
can cover this kind of thing which a host can obtain on their own. AirBnB
doesn't have to muddy their business model with doing insurance, let the
insurance people do this.

~~~
_delirium
I think this case of unofficially renting out your house/apt is difficult to
buy insurance for. Most homeowner's insurance policies explicitly exclude
damages caused when renting your house. You need a separate landlord insurance
to cover rental, but you typically can't buy landlord insurance unless your
property is properly registered/licensed/inspected by your municipality as a
rental property.

------
varunsrin
I always found AirBnB's model based on a surprising amount of trust - I for
one would never be comfortable just handing over they keys to my place to a
total stranger.

Even if they didn't ransack my place completely, as happened to the
unfortunate author - I would be concerned about unintentional damage to my
property that I might not discover till too late. Renting out something as
private as my primary place of residence just seems like a generally bad idea,
especially when I am not around to constantly check in on it. Even if I got to
meet them, and they seemed like nice people whats to stop them from leaving
without paying if they accidentally broke my TV ?

As the service expands, and becomes more craigslist-y (in terms of audience) I
can only see problems like this getting worse, and apart from implementing
some kind of guest / host rating system (like ecommerce portals do with
sellers) I see no clear solution to the problem.

~~~
michaeldhopkins
As the service expands, regular people's homes (with unrestorable personal
value and charm) will be replaced with commercial properties using airBnB as
just another advertising channel. When that happens the fresh appeal will be
gone and airBnB will be successful if they have become popular and stable
enough that an airBnB listing is mandatory for people in the property
management business.

~~~
dlss
I hope this happens soon.

The risk/reward trade-offs don't seem to be understood by most AirBnB
landlords (99.99% chance of earning $100, 0.01% chance of losing $50k+). Even
though this is strongly positive expected value, for a family that can't
afford to lose $50k this is a game of russian roulette.

My heart goes out to the author of this; I hope the person who did this to her
is put in jail, and the system (AirBnB) that enabled that person prevents
landlords who can't afford the financial & emotional risk from listing
properties going forward.

This is one those places where laws make sense to me; the average person needs
to be protected from unknowingly gambling with their family's future.

~~~
kragen
I think you are dramatically overstating the risk at 0.01%. Suppose past
performance predicts future results. AirBnB has had, what, 10 million rental
deals? And this has only happened, as far as we can tell, once. That's not an
0.01% risk. It's more like 0.000001%.

Overstating the risk by a factor of ten thousand is a very substantial
exaggeration.

It's hard for human beings to understand very large and very small numbers, so
to put that in context, <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_traffic_safety>
says about ten people are killed per billion vehicle kilometers in most
developed countries, so perhaps five people per billion passenger kilometers.
So you have a one in ten million chance of getting killed by riding about
twenty kilometers in a car.

Surely you would not advocate making laws to "protect" "the average person"
"from unknowingly gambling with their family's future" by traveling tens of
kilometers by car, thus possibly orphaning their children?

~~~
kragen
Update: Airbnb's new post [http://techcrunch.com/2011/07/27/on-safety-a-word-
from-airbn...](http://techcrunch.com/2011/07/27/on-safety-a-word-from-airbnb/)
says "undermined what had been – for 2 million nights – a case study
demonstrating that people are fundamentally good." If I take that to mean that
2 million nights had been booked via Airbnb to date, then I underestimated the
(frequentist) risk by a factor of around 350: 2 million nights are only a
quarter of a million weeks, so this is a one-in-a-quarter-million chance,
0.00035% rather than 0.000001%. Also, my original figure, "It's more like
0.000001%," was wrong; that would have been one in a hundred million, not one
in ten million. And the original "0.01%" was an overestimate by only about a
factor of 300, not ten thousand.

So the risk of this happening to you is not like the risk of dying by
traveling 20 kilometers by car, but more like the risk of dying by traveling
700 kilometers by car.

(Of course that's assuming that past performance is some kind of a guide to
future results. It could be that all kinds of tweakers are going to get on
Airbnb now and trash things that one of their friends has had a taste, or it
could be that future people thinking of doing this kind of thing will be
deterred by the rapid arrest of the apparent culprit in this case.)

------
edw519
_I get angry when I realize I will never again be who I've always been before,
someone who lived strong and free by the creed that people are essentially
good, that if you think optimistically, trust others._

Please don't let them steal this too.

I'm really sorry for your bad experience, but remember:

    
    
      - You can still live strong and free.
      - People are still essentially good.
      - You can still think optimistically.
      - You can still trust others.
    

It's true, you will never be who you've always been. But you can be _almost_
the same person, still optimistic and trusting, just a little less naive. You
many not realize it now, but the time will come when you may actually
appreciate this as a learning experience.

There are bad people out there and some of them will want to hurt you. You
don't have to sacrifice who you really are because of them. You just have to
live a little bit differently.

Don't let them take away you really are. Believe it or not, that would be much
worse than what they've already done.

Lots of well wishes for your quick recovery.

~~~
AretNCarlsen
> People are still essentially good.

Experiment indicates that the majority (65%) are not:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment>

I am sorry to be a downer, and I agree that it is nice to pretend that people
are essentially good. Ignoring the Milgram results, however, leads us to
forget why we have to maintain societies with complex crime deterrent schemes,
and why we should not trust anonymous individuals who cannot be located for
punishment.

"[H]alf ... were female, and their rate of obedience was virtually identical
to that of the male participants." "Where participants had to physically hold
the "learner's" arm onto a shock plate, ... 30 percent of participants
completed the experiment."

~~~
dbingham
"I don't think that means what you think it means."

That experiment deals with ability to disobey authority, not with the basic
goodness of the people performing the actions. Nearly 100% of the people
performing the actions questioned what they were doing. That indicates they
knew it was wrong, instinctively and didn't wish to do it. But we are well
trained to listen to authority, and the authority figure was telling them to
continue.

This actually backs up the idea that people are essentially good. But it also
provides evidence for the idea that most people can be easily lead into
violating their natural conscience.

Studies of innate "goodness" performed on children reveal that most people,
from birth, have an innate moral conscience that we would consider 'good'.
I'll see if I can find a link to back this up.

Here we go:
[http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/01/science/01human.html?adxnn...](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/01/science/01human.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1311784203-lIy+svrV0/54Iv1qUUfs6A)

~~~
ZoFreX
I don't find it that surprising, given that we are taught from birth to obey
authority figures (parents, family, teachers, policemen) /without question/.
It's perhaps a useful simplification in early life but is one I've long-
considered harmful.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
> _given that we are taught from birth to obey authority figures (parents,
> family, teachers, policemen) /without question/_

One of the important aspects I'm trying to maintain with my kids is a right to
reply and express their opinion. My eldest's teacher goes against this, she
demands "do it first time" whilst I demand a response - he can refuse but he
can't ignore a request, if he can reason his way out/in to something then
that's far better IMO than blind obedience.

It can be a useful simplification in the sense that one needs a child to obey
commands like "don't touch the hot stove" and "don't run in to the road"
("stop" covers both).

~~~
cookiecaper
It's important to teach children to obey authority figures. It's also
important to teach them critical thinking skills and learn how to detect when
a thing is arbitrary. However, instead of teaching the child to disrupt the
authority in place, I think it is preferable to teach the children to obey
unless there is a moral imperative against doing so.

For instance, while your son's teacher may assign him some silly work, while
there is no reason to do this work other than the teacher said so, he should
learn to work within the framework and do the work anyway because he is
subject to the teacher in his current circumstances. If the teacher, however,
assigns him to physically harm another student or participate in another
morally objectionable act, he should refuse to comply. Things go much smoother
this way than they do if people are constantly nagging and arguing over things
that really have no incident; much energy could be saved by both your son and
his teacher by compliance with non-useful but non-harmful requests rather than
disrupting the flow of instruction and encouraging further disorder and
disrespect to authority.

~~~
aedocw
It's INCREDIBLY important to teach children to obey authority figures WITHIN
REASON. If a teacher, cop or fireman is asking your kid to do something that
doesn't seem quite right, their first instinct should be to ignore them, and
get help from someone they know. The only people a kid should blindly obey is
their own parents.

As far as I know, very few people teach their kids that it's OK to question
authority (within reason - and yes, respect authority always. If you're in a
teachers classroom, you follow their rules.)

------
gojomo
The guests sound like drug addicts. (Maybe meth? Tweakers do bizarre things
like move furniture at odd hours or burn fires without opening the flue.)

I've been a happy AirBnb guest on a few occasions; the one time I had
someone's whole usual studio apartment I found it a bit strange how much of
their life was left on display for me – like the host's prescriptions still in
the fridge! – but of course respected their privacy.

Each time I've been a guest, we've seen photos of each other on the site, and
the keys were handed off in person. While I didn't expect anyone to stop by
and check on me during my stays, I always had the impression the host or
host's friends were nearby.

A guest with criminal intent would try to pick a place for a longer stay, in a
more anonymous building, with a host known to be out-of-town. But then again,
that's also what someone seeking to burglarize any vacation-emptied residence
would do. More or less this same sort of crime could happen without AirBnb, or
perhaps be enabled by nothing more than tracking public tweets/'check-ins' to
predict unit vacancy.

(Another development I eventually expect in this progression of tech-mediated
sharing: a bad-faith host who surveils their guests.)

~~~
mml
Definitely tweakers. I wouldn't use that sink near open flame for a while.

~~~
earino
Dude, did you just predict that AirBNB is going to be used for mobile meth
labs?

------
vladd
AirBnB can be used without issues if you own a property and you're willing to
operate it like a hotel: you're present on the premises to check in the
guests, you have a room or a reception-like place from where you can monitor
the situation, and you're able to inspect the place when they leave.

Operating a property remotely via AirBnB implies all sorts of risks, which
makes me think that it might be an unsustainable model, because a black swan
event might ruin the property to such extent that it offsets the income made
in all the other cases.

AirBnB handles property promotion and property booking on the Internet --
that's fine -- but when it advertised itself it included in the message ways
to do property administration (as in rent-your-home-while-away). While this is
not connected intricately with their core business, it is the model that some
owners assumed by default, without realizing the risks involved or the fact
that you are still exposed to one-in-one-hundred unpleasant events.

If they manage to warn about this upfront similar to the way Craiglist does,
without losing their brand and their community support, then owners will
become aware of those issues and take the necessary protection (by i.e.
requesting guarantees/deposits/passports or by using their social network to
validate the guests). If they don't, I'm afraid a couple of bad PR articles
will be enough to destroy their reputation.

P.S.: I haven't heard of hotels managed remotely; there are some hotels where
you check in automatically and you get the keys via some sort of robot system
but in the morning there is someone handling the checkout, the cleaning etc.
In addition they have your credit card on file, your passport, probably your
cam photo when you picked up the keys and the most you can destroy is a hotel
room (still a great deal of value but somehow limited and the hotel probably
has insurance for it). But automation didn't pick up at scale in the hotel
industry. In the current state, it thrives partially because the reception
provides the safety-checks and balances needed to prevent and offset these
black swan events. I'm not sure the remote administration model is scalable or
even manage-able due to this.

~~~
dlss
Um, this is incorrect. Hotels are vandalized all the time... having a
"reception-like place from where you can monitor the situation", and
"inspect[ing] the place when they leave" doesn't prevent people from trashing
your room/apt.

It sounds like the person who trashed the OP's apartment /enjoyed/ trashing it
-- it didn't sound like someone inconsiderate, or in a hurry; it sounded like
someone who deliberately and knowingly ruined the place. The security measures
you suggest won't stop that sort of attacker.

~~~
vladd
I've said "to prevent and offset". It's about managing the event (offsetting
the bad cases when prevention fails). Having a reception area allows you to
have their signature on the contract, to validate their identity (name,
nationality, passport) based on the photo ID and how they look in real life
and to have on record a lot of validated information about them (which will
sure help with police and insurance in case something bad happens).

~~~
dlss
You said "can be used without issues".

I agree identity validation, and being there to hear loud noises/odd behavior
makes it harder / less fun for an attacker -- but this is not what allows
hotels to operate effectively. Some percentage of hotel registrations surely
occur with stolen passports, etc. Hotels rather build this cost into their
business model in a manner similar to an insurance company.

Because hotels rent so many rooms at a time, they can treat these costs in the
same way that your car insurance company treats accident risk -- something
that is always happening that can be offset in real time by honest people
using the hotel as per the contract.

Letting people into your home does not have that risk-sharing property -- it's
insuring a single driver instead of tens of thousands -- you open yourself up
to a very real risk of losing a lot of money.

(Not to mention that hotels are not personally attached to the rental rooms).

------
Luyt
How is this:

 _"... emphasize that the customer service team at airbnb.com has been
wonderful..."_

reconcilable with this:

 _"...My next call was to airbnb.com - I tried their "urgent" line, their
email address, their general customer support line. I heard nothing - no
response whatsoever - until the following day, 14 sleepless hours later, and
only after a desperate call to an airbnb.com freelancer I happen to know
helped my case get some attention..."_

Does that mean you'd have to know someone who works at AirBnB before you can
get customer service? I've heard similar stories about Google, too.

~~~
mbreese
Customer service was apparently wonderful... _after_ they were able to get
ahold of them.

One of their suggestions was that airbnb add _immediately_ a 24/7 customer
service line, which would have fixed the initial delay.

------
sequoia
Moral of the story: By using a service like AirBnB to make some cash, you are
_Rolling the fucking dice_. It's naïve to think otherwise, and if you're not
comfortable with that kind of risk, _don't do it_. It seems some people see
the service as "easy money" and don't consider outcomes like this.

I think it's best compared to hitchhiking: Is it cheap? Hell yes. Is it
consistant/reliable? no. Is it as safe as a bus/plane? _usually_ yes,
sometimes no in a big way.

I travelled in my youth (5 years ago :p) around several states via thumb. It
was a calculated risk I was taking, and both I and other hitchhikers I knew
were aware of this risk and took steps to mitigate it (carrying mace, turning
down rides– one friend would take a photo of the plates and text them to a
friend each ride, informing the driver that he/she was not anonymous).

AirBnB is like this: you save/make some money, but rather than a Hotel (or bus
company) being on the hook for a bad outcome, YOU are on the hook. If you're
not prepared for that, don't do it. It's not "easy money."

------
econgeeker
AirBnB makes us travelers vulnerable to being scammed as well. In the most
recent rental, it really was a roll of the dice to see if we were going to
have an apartment or not (and of course, by the time we could have contacted
AirBnB to say we'd been scammed, the scammer would already have our money, due
to the way AirBnB works, and their lack of any way to contact them.)

I travel full time. I'm a nomad. I would rent thru AirBnB for 365 nights a
year if they provided the service that they originally set out to provide. I
think they changed their focus, and rather than building an organic community
of people renting their places to each other, they are pursuing the expensive
travel market. This makes sense given the profits are higher and it is easier
to get vacation rentals in the system than individuals. But they're not the
ebay of travel anymore, they've become a HomeAway clone.

They also really need to change their policies on communication- they inhibit
our ability to talk to the owners before renting, and this is worsened given
that many owners may not speak english. Letting us call them or email them is
not going to want us to cut AirBnB out of the deal, because the primary value
AirBnB provides is the fraud protection of letting us pay by credit card.

There's no reason for any company of this size not to have a 24/hour hotline.
It may be midnight in california, but it is 5pm somewhere. You have listings
around the world.

AirBnB's priorities seem to have shifted away from building an organic "ebay
of travel" with regular people to maximum growth in revenue, by going after
the high end travel market, with a distinct lack of customer service. This may
not be intentional, but I'm part of the market-- a heavy use part of the
market- and that's how it is looking to me.

So, 24 hour hotline, policies for dealing with things that go wrong, to help
customers, and letting the people use the site communicate are the changes I'd
make. I bet you'll find that more communications means more confidence and
more nights rented.

~~~
johnx123-up
Agreed. Couple of days back, I went through one AirBnB competitor
[http://www.quora.com/Airbnb/Will-Agriya-Burrow-be-a-
threat-t...](http://www.quora.com/Airbnb/Will-Agriya-Burrow-be-a-threat-to-
Airbnb) There comments suggest that HomeAway model is better and also they're
adding SecondPorch.

I initially thought that their comparison
<http://www.launchfeed.com/launches/view/1308830151> is weird. But, that makes
sense now.

------
lwhi
I remember a while back, someone on HN commented that they preferred the
AirBnB model to CouchSurfing; because they felt that they were under no
obligation to spend time with their host, or try to repay their hospitality
with a meal or gift.

CouchSurfing relies upon (and in turn reinforces) a culture of good-will.

Because AirBnB converts the CouchSurfing model into a simple cash transaction
- I think a lot of the positive norms that are inherent to CouchSurfing are
lost.

~~~
micheljansen
Exactly, it seems much harder to blatantly vandalize the home of a like-minded
person who personally welcomes you into their home, offers to show you around
etc. than the fancy loft of some faceless traveling businessman. Also paying
for something tends to give certain people a sense of entitlement.

Of course none of this makes what happened to the poor person in this case OK
or even remotely acceptable. Nonetheless, I think understanding why things
happen is a good step towards coming up with a solution.

Maybe if AirBnB can get some of the personality of the Couchsurfing community,
it can get some of these positive norms that go with it as well. The trick
would be how to do that without losing the low social barrier to entry they
have now.

------
rdl
I am non-representatively paranoid, and have always been afraid of this kind
of thing when having guests not personally known to me, visitors to "open
house" office events, etc. I think there is little actual risk with almost
anyone as a guest (most people ARE good, or at least non-malicious, or at
least lazy), but this is why the AirBnB reputation system is so key to their
value (and why they'll have a strong network effect).

Maybe the effect of this will be to make people want personal connections (via
fb graph or whatever) to their AirBnB guests, or at least requiring minimum
numbers of positive reviews from known sources (to prevent the
sockpuppet/shill issue).

I wonder if your renter's or homeowners insurance might cover this kind of
thing. If it doesn't generally, it'd be awesome if AirBnB could work with a
third party insurer (per jurisdiction) to offer optional insurance to hosts
(and guests) against this kind of thing.

~~~
wheels
I suspect home owner's insurance would not cover this since they would
probably see it as an unlicensed rental. I've thought for a while that Airbnb
will need to develop an insurance system. I'm sure that lesser incidents of
property destruction / theft are far more commonplace (carpet stains,
cigarette burns, appliances damaged, "borrowing" something that doesn't get
returned) and I've thought dealing with such is going to be eventually crucial
to making the model sustainable over time.

And then, of course, there are going to be rare catastrophes like this one --
or worse. Eventually, if the system gets large enough, there will be a sexual
assault case. I wonder if Airbnb has pre-baked disaster scenario plans.
Eventually they'll have to deal with the emotional, PR, legal and political
fallout.

It's still one of the things that keeps me queasy about listing my extra
bedroom. I'd guesstimate the replacement value of the contents of my apartment
is circa $50k and I'm loathe to gamble with such.

~~~
moe
$50k?

I'd be more worried about a guest setting the house on fire, by accident or
not. Fire-damage can easily clock in north of $500k. Good luck explaining the
AirBnB concept to your insurance company after a stranger turns out to be "not
available anymore" (stolen CC, etc.).

~~~
timr
A thousand times, yes. You'd be insane not to carry _at least_ a half million
dollars in coverage for fire loss in a city like San Francisco. I think my own
rental insurance covers something like $1M, and they explicitly don't cover
losses incurred to property that I'm renting to others. That's another class
of insurance -- much more expensive, because the risks are so much higher.

I think you have to be incredibly naive to rent out your personal apartment on
AirBnB. The downside risk is virtually unbounded (and lest you think I'm
exaggerating: what happens if a tweaker AirBnB renter burns down your
building, and _your neighbors die in the fire?_ Hello, civil judgment.)

------
rkalla
Why was the title of this post changed? It used to have the name "airbnb" in
it earlier this morning, around 400 votes.

~~~
pg
When submitters rewrite titles of posts we almost always (if we notice)
replace them with the original title. We've done that since HN started.
Otherwise submitters compete to make attention-getting titles, and you end up
with the frontpage of reddit.

~~~
CamperBob
_Otherwise submitters compete to make attention-getting titles, and you end up
with the frontpage of reddit._

That sounds like an excellent matter to leave in the hands of the users who
vote for/against stories.

~~~
walexander
The purpose is to _prevent_ it being left in the hands of users. "Linkbait" is
named as such for a reason.

It's just too tempting to not reflexively upvote a juicy title.

------
g123g
With internet almost run over by all kinds of scam artists, spammers, pedos
etc. is there any surprise that such a thing can happen? You have crackers
trying their level best to install keyloggers and other tools to read the
passwords to your accounts. And in this environment if you hand over the key
of your apartment to some complete stranger, I think the writer should also
take some blame for his naivety. Just because airbnb is current flavor of the
month it does not mean you throw your basic common sense out the door.

Even if you are present in an apartment yourself, it is still too risky to
allow a complete stranger to sleep in the room next to you. How much
verification can be done by you or airbnb? The Norwegian shooter had no
criminal history that could have been caught by any verification. So how can
you be comfortable with allowing a stranger into your home with no
verification done at all from your side?

I think there should be a service which will allow you to rent the room only
to your friends or to friends of friends but no further than that. This friend
list can be from facebook, linkedin or Google+. This will reduce the chances
of getting a rental but give peace of mind that you are not letting some
hardened criminal into your home.

~~~
Robin_Message
I know this is a horrible and shocking event, and my thoughts are with the
person who has had their life violated, but I feel compelled to comment that
you are wrong.

The internet is not "almost run over [with] scam artists, spammers, pedos
etc." They are visible and use anonymity to do what they do on the internet,
certainly, but it is far from overrun.

Secondly, is it really too risky to be asleep without a locked door between
you and the world? That is a scary, closed world to live in. You are also
wrong to blame the victim; they say themselves they made a mistake not to do
more verification, but the blame can only be on the perpetrator †.

Finally, let's not forget that most sexual assaults and rapes [1] are carried
out by friends and acquaintances, so limiting your contact to friends of
friends is unlikely to make you significantly safer.

Overall, I think your conclusions are the worst to draw from this attack. Take
care, but don't go crazy keeping out the "other".

† It might be useful to make a distinction between casual responsibility and
moral responsibility. The victim may have done something that helped cause the
attack, but they are not at fault.

[1] According to (admitted a random googling) the American Centre for Victims
of Crime, 77% of rapes are committed by non-strangers.
[http://www.ncvc.org/ncvc/main.aspx?dbName=DocumentViewer&...](http://www.ncvc.org/ncvc/main.aspx?dbName=DocumentViewer&DocumentID=32306)

~~~
ceejayoz
> Finally, let's not forget that most sexual assaults and rapes [1] are
> carried out by friends and acquaintances, so limiting your contact to
> friends of friends is unlikely to make you significantly safer.

I'd imagine that's because those people tend to get let into one's home more
than a stranger, which means the stat doesn't help your point much.

------
joshfraser
This is not the first story like this I have heard about AirBnB. They have
just done a good job keeping them hush hush and talking people out of going to
the cops. Obviously stories like this are horrible for their reputation and
AirBnB have a big incentive to try and take care of issues on their own.

~~~
patrickod
Have you any links for this? Those sound like pretty big accusations to be
making without citations.

~~~
jnordstrom
If there were links, wouldn't that disprove his point?

~~~
patrickod
I don't see what users would have to gain in not going to the police and
reporting these crimes. Unless he's implying airbnb is buying their silence

~~~
watchandwait
A victim host might be violating the terms of the lease by subletting their
apartment, or could be violating local zoning or hotel permitting laws.

~~~
pavel_lishin
And how much is their lease that paying the penalty is worth having their
entire apartment trashed, their identity stolen, etc., etc?

------
speckledjim
Always bound to happen. Up next, the host who fits spycams in his shower and
posts pics of his naked visitors to porn sites.

~~~
jrockway
That's what I would do. I once got a letter from my management company that
said, "we are conducting random apartment inspections tomorrow. be aware."
This bothered me because I don't really like people in my house, and they
didn't give the 24 hours notice required by law. So, I set up some cameras,
broadcast it to the Internet, and told my twitter followers to watch my
apartment for me while I was at work.

They never showed up.

~~~
speckledjim
Good reason why renting sucks. (It's not _your_ house).

~~~
Luyt
Yes and no. There are also situations where state inspectors can come into
your _bought_ house: building structural safety inspection, fire safety, pest
control etc... It also depends on where you live, of course.

------
danenania
What happened to this person is awful and it´s understandable that she/he is
very emotional at this point, but I don´t think the lesson is you can´t ever
trust people, or that the AirBnB model is flawed. It´s more like: hope for the
best, plan for the worst. There is always going to be some black swan risk
even if AirBnB does do more vetting. There´s no reason for example to leave
valuables anywhere in the residence while strangers are there. You can´t be
100% protected unless you´re willing to get insurance, which probably doesn´t
make sense for the occasional provider, but you can at least remove the low
hanging fruit risk-wise. Perhaps AirBnB should take a more active role in
educating its providers on basic precautions.

~~~
carbonica
> There´s no reason for example to leave valuables anywhere in the residence
> while strangers are there.

So you're saying AirBnB should advocate against rentals while you're away?

Or are you saying, if you want to rent while you're gone for a week, that you
should get a week's worth of self-storage (which I've never heard of, but
might exist in a city), move all your important belongings to the self-storage
unit, and move them back after the guest is gone? That seems quite onerous.

~~~
danenania
That or drop them with a friend or relative. Why is that so onerous?

I think people should use AirBnB however they see fit, but understand the
risks in doing so and take whatever precautions are realistic to lessen them.

This situation would still suck, but not be nearly as bad/scary/expensive if
the victim hadn't left cash, credit cards, expensive electronics, legal
documents etc. in the apartment. I'm just recommending easy steps to lower the
potential downside and increase the overall EV of being an AirBnB provider
given that this sort of nightmare is a slight but real possibility.

~~~
carbonica
It's not onerous until you consider that desktop computers and flat-screen TVs
are "valuables".

------
DrStalker
Does AirBnB offer any help with insurance? I know my home & contents insurance
wouldn't cover any of this: I'd need to get (expensive) commerical insurance
or some sort, and I'm guessing most AirBnB hosts don't have that.

The idea of renting out my place with no recourse to insurance if it is
destroyed is far too insane to contemplate for me.

~~~
lutorm
Given the exposure, I would expect AirBnB to have liability insurance up the
wazoo. It seems likely they would lose a lawsuit in this case, and even with
just partial liability it could be very expensive.

~~~
sequoia
Why would they lose a lawsuit if one were brought in this case? I haven't read
it but I'd wager their TOS gives them the right to your first born child
(hmm... I'm trying to say it probably disclaims any possible liability in the
broadest possible terms, bad analogy perhaps). Then again, whether that holds
in court is something we couldn't know until after a case.

------
bluesmoon
I haven't use AirBnB before, but I do use CouchSurfing a lot. CouchSurfing's
system of verification, vouching and references makes a big difference to how
much you feel you can trust someone who asks to use your home. I do still
sometimes accept guests with no references, particularly if it's a last
minute, but I check their IDs first, and only give them limited access to my
home.

------
yalogin
The most important thing to note is this has happened even before it hit
critical mass, hell its in its infancy still. This is the reason why Airbnb
never made sense to me as a business. The author is lucky there was no bodily
harm done to him. It's too much of a risk to rent out your personal property
to total strangers. Now they forever know where you live and more so know the
complete layout of your house and what you have in it and your schedule. At
the end of the day it cannot be more than bedandbreakfast.com used as a
listing sits for businesses. That is why the 1billion valuation does not make
sense either.

------
morganwarstler
Airbnb should willingly do MORE to verify users than CarFax, Paypal, Facebook,
etc.

Screw your bizmodel.

Run a credit and criminal background check - and charge 4%.

~~~
wisty
Simple - first time users submit scan of a photo ID, and a picture of
themselves. AirBnB checks the ID, and publishes the photo. After booking, the
owner can use Skype to see if they match the photo.

~~~
domador
Great idea! However, AirBnB should not only post the photo, but also be in
charge of verifying over Skype that it matches the person posting it. If it'd
be too expensive to verify every single new user, they could just verify them
once they make their first booking.

AirBnB should be the one matching photos to real, living individuals since not
everyone renting out their home is likely to be as through as a company with a
well-established procedure.

------
jakarta
To me, this underscores one of the key risks to having an AirBnB room for
rent.

I think if you are going to do it, you really have to be careful.

1\. You should probably be someone that works from home / is home often. At
least then you can monitor your place more often. You wont be seeing inside
the room, but you could at least hear if anything insane is going on in it.

2\. You should not have much by way of valuables around your place, nothing
easy to steal. The first place I rented on AirBnB was like this. There was no
TV/dvd player/ps3, the host had a laptop which he took with him. It consisted
mostly of cheap Ikea-ish furniture. This works in my mind because it mitigates
what can/can't be stolen.

------
caf
A reminder that there's more to scaling out to millions of users than ensuring
your hardware is up to the task.

------
matdwyer
I just was quoted in a national article here in Canada (the Globe & Mail) that
talked about using AirBNB... I've passed this story along to the author who is
going to see about a followup.

This wont stop me from using AirBNB as a guest, but I was never comfortable
with renting my own home anyway.

edit - if AirBNB kept a drivers license scan on file to confirm the credit
card was the users, that would be helpful. I know that is difficult with
privacy laws, etc, but when I check into a hotel I always have to show my ID
to make sure it has my name on it....

~~~
evilduck
_if AirBNB kept a drivers license scan on file to confirm the credit card was
the users_

Don't credit card companies prohibit this?

------
prof
I cannot believe he did not meet them in person first. And left valuable
things behind.

edit: or she..

~~~
darklajid
How is that relevant? Apart from the fact that valuables were locked in, I
don't get the point:

\- You cannot take everything with you, you have to leave stuff at your _home_
(all the documents mentioned for example).

\- I won't try to claim that I can speak for the author, but I'd guess that
the valuables lost are less a problem. The violation/emotional troubles seem
to be worse.

\- Giving the nature of the destruction (it seems so much on purpose, so
carefully done) I don't even know if 'did not meet them in person first'
would've helped. At least the author would recognize these guys again on the
street, but I don't believe that it is proven that you would've sensed
something that wrong.. It kind of reads like someone enjoyed a dark fetish by
destroying random stuff.

~~~
erikpukinskis
_You cannot take everything with you, you have to leave stuff at your _home_
(all the documents mentioned for example)._

In light of this article, if I ever rented my apartment out for a week, I
would box up any sensitive documents, or particularly valuable items, and
leave them at a friend's house.

 _I don't even know if 'did not meet them in person first' would've helped._

Getting a scan of a photo ID, matching it to the person, and possibly getting
a current photo of them, along with a license plate number all would be
reasonable measures that you could take in a five minute meeting. Not only
would they give you more leverage in police investigations, they would
probably deter people from trashing/taking your stuff.

 _The violation/emotional troubles seem to be worse._

Some of the violation comes from the feeling that she can't really do very
much about it, and that she was totally unprepared for it. AirBnB offering a
few tips, of the "here are some things people to do protect themselves, you
might consider them" variety, seems totally reasonable.

------
cageface
It's yet another tragedy of the commons. As AirBNB becomes more popular I
expect this is going to happen more often. Unfortunately I think this is only
going to have to happen a few more times before people start to seriously
question the wisdom of inviting a relative stranger into their homes.

~~~
gaius
Exactly this. A service thorougly tested with (for want of a better term)
early-adopter Internet hipsters is going to fail in entirely predictable ways
when exposed to the Internet that gave us 4chan.

------
prawn
Looks like a couple of reporters have already hit the comments area looking
for more info for a story. It goes far, far beyond a basic theft or incident
of vandalism and could easily blow up internationally and do a great deal of
damage to the AirBnB brand.

I don't know the blogger in any way at all, but have to admit that my first
thought was to wonder if this might've been arranged by a competing industry
or service at all. Sounds a bit over the top to be a pre-conceived plan
though. Doubt various hotel associations would be desperately unhappy to see
this story though, you have to admit.

Between Google and AirBnB, I'm sure the police could have IP addresses of the
perpetrator(s) and track them down unless they were particularly smart (and if
they are particularly smart, they'd be picking bigger targets...).

~~~
mike-cardwell
I don't think what you're suggesting is _that_ paranoid. There has to have
been _some_ motive. Perhaps it was just somebody seeking revenge, either
against the person whos flat it was, or against AirBnB.

~~~
carbonica
To suggest it might not be paranoid, but merely prudent. To think it's at all
more likely that this is a setup against AirBnB and not just... you know,
crime... I think is in fact paranoid.

If you want motive, here's one that you might be surprised to learn motivates
a lot of crime: the guest needed money for drugs/debt/food/just wanted money,
and thought he might get away with it.

Houses get broken into. People get mugged. There doesn't need to be a
conspiracy for these things to happen.

~~~
prawn
Not many opportunistic thieves would pay to rent a target which they haven't
cased, right? And meet whoever handed over the keys. Seems pretty bizarre.

------
watty
So anything remotely related to YC companies that shed good light are
immediately frontpaged but something potentially dangerous that is bad PR gets
title changed?

------
ffffruit
Is there anything stopping the renter from taking extra precautions? Like for
example photocopy the tenants passport?

I am finding it hard to believe that somebody would drop off the keys to his
own apartment to a total stranger, regardless of any guarantees the site does,
without even wanting to briefly meet them.

~~~
xentronium
> Like for example photocopy the tenants passport?

Doesn't AirBnB do that? If no, then why?!

Disclaimer: never used the service.

------
nhangen
Why would you ever rent your place, important valuables inside the property,
without being home?

I can understand leaving the place empty of valuables and renting it remotely,
but to rent your primary residence while you are away is incredibly foolish. I
just don't get it.

------
rdl
I'm curious what the specific crime is if you're in a place like NYC or SF
(where <30 day rentals are illegal for zoning reasons), you legally permit
someone entry to your space, and he just trashes (vs. stealing) stuff. It
should be a crime, but what is it? Not theft, not trespass.

"Criminal damage to property", or vandalism, probably counts, but that's
really up to the jurisdiction on what it includes.

I wish this guy would try this in Singapore; 3 years in prison and/or caning.

~~~
mseebach
Grand theft auto of a car that's parked illegally is still grand theft auto.
Ie. that renting the place out is in violation of zoning laws does not make
any difference to what crime the guest commits.

The bigger problem is insurance, which, as others point out, probably does not
cover.

------
jaredmck
Why was the title of this submission changed? Was it because the old title
mentioned AirBnB?

------
varunsrin
Can someone please explain why the post name was changed? If it was to
'protect' AirBnB I find that in poor taste - this is a legitimate problem that
occurred with the service, though it is likely not a specific problem. if the
OP (foxit) requested or made this change, let us know.

------
pabloiv
I really hope this incident doesn't break her spirit. As someone who's been
shot at, beat up, robbed, held up, and still trusts people: What doesn't kill
you makes you stronger.

That said, I also rent out my place through AirBnB.
(<http://www.airbnb.com/rooms/106355>) I interview everyone who stays with me
through Skype before confirming any reservation. AirBnB, has a very classy
membership, and we've had great experiences with all our guests, but due
diligence is still a must. Communicating with your potential guests is
essential, as is reading between the lines. You should also make an effort to
look at their face at least once before booking. Skype is perfect for this and
AirBnB doesn't block it.

------
jv22222
This could resolved if airbnb insisted on a refundable deposit of $500-$1000
per visit.

~~~
Omnipresent
500 to 1000 is not bad of a seed funding for a thief. I think better security
measure would be to provide some sort of valid state or federal or national
identifications. Any decent hotel requires this so why not AirBnB?

~~~
marquis
I would pay to be verified by AirBnB, by uploading a picture ID and having a
human verify this. A service I use provids added verification by mailing you a
code that you enter on the site to prove your address. Things like this could
help a lot to assisting with identity scams.

------
VladRussian
whats wrong with renting through Craigslist (except obvious problem of spam
from companies like AirBnB) ? Both parties may request and provide any
documents/verifications until their mutual full satisfaction. We had no
problem renting space in Europe from US for example though some amount of
communication and search was involved - we didn't like some people, some
people didn't like us as we needed full paperwork from them for visas, etc...
i wonder how such fine tuning of mutual requirements would be possible through
"blind renting" service like AirBnB.

------
jarek
I'm shocked by some things I've read in this article. I don't want to blame
the victim, but the author has rented out their home for a full week and left
identity and financial documents behind a plywood or MDF door. Data, passport,
birth certificate, and cash. Trusting people is nice, but surely there's a
limit at which it becomes insane. I get a little nervous when I leave my
documents in my (empty) apartment over a long weekend; I'm flabbergasted as to
why the author seemingly wasn't bothered until after the crime.

------
hluska
There is a big chicken or egg problem right at the core Of this sad case. On
one hand, why would anyone trust someone they have only had limited
conversations with to stay in their home...alone? On the other hand, if Airbnb
allows renters to do background checks before the agreement is finalized, how
do they avoid private sales?

I can't resolve this, so I wouldn't dream of renting my place out unless I was
going to be there. And even then, I'd sleep with one eye open!

~~~
kenjackson
Why doesn't AirBnB simply do the checks you would do? In fact AirBnB can give
a checklist of services they can run from nationwide background to credit
checks. You check off what you want done, and AirBnB bills you for them.

------
grannyg00se
"They ... found the passport, cash, credit card and grandmother's jewelry I
had hidden inside. They found my birth certificate and social security card,
which I believe they photocopied "

Why would you leave your birth certificate and social security card behind
when you have strangers occupying your home?

Passports, ids, hard drives, diamonds .... these are all small but very
important items that fit perfectly into a safety deposit box.

------
timsally
After someone has copies of your passport, birth certificate, social security
card, etc, what do you even do? Isn't your identity compromised forever?

~~~
Ixiaus
Not really. Often copies or stolen birth certificates, SS cards, and passports
are sold to forgers that can use them to make fake passports and identities.
So it isn't to necessarily impersonate you (although it can be used for that).

You can get a new SS number, and you can get a new passport which makes the
old ones null - but as far as a birth certificate goes - I'm not too privy on
the security features of those documents. I do know though that they are
rarely used to impersonate and more often used as forgery material.

(please correct me if I'm wrong)

------
Uchikoma
Woman gives apartment keys to complete stranger. Gets robbed.

279 points and 124 comments on HN.

~~~
Uchikoma
Thanks for the -4, I think a.) that's worth it b.) proves my point. A "new"
business model aka AirBnB does not change any facts.

~~~
fjabre
+1.

It's because HN is fundamentally biased and always will be. The top 2 comments
are not surprisingly pro airbnb:

a) People are still good fundamentally - because that's exactly what I'd want
to hear if someone ransacked my place.

b) PR from a guy who works there.

I personally wouldn't want to stay in a stranger's house and I don't think I
ever will - no matter how big airbnb becomes I believe there will always be a
percentage of people who are uncomfortable with the airbnb business model.

Obviously a lot of people don't care and airbnb will go on to be successful
I'm sure but it's a shame this community has such a hard time being honest
with itself.

------
deathflute
I have always been skeptical about such services. It is like collecting
pennies in front of a steamroller. Sooner or later, a tail event like this is
bound to happen. A distribution of hosting experiences has to be fat-tailed.
It is okay to deal with that risk when even the worst case scenario is
acceptable. But, for your own home how can it be acceptable?

------
jackwagon
"They found my coupons for Bed Bath & Beyond and used the discount, along with
my Mastercard, to shop online."

Are you kidding me? Seriously.

~~~
tonystubblebine
My home was burglarized once and among all the serious stuff that they took
they also took: tortillas, salsa, ground beef, and cheddar cheese. I still
can't believe that.

~~~
boucher
The first time my home was robbed (while I was sleeping upstairs), the
perpetrators did a whole bunch of bizarre things, like taking a jar of pickles
out of the fridge and leaving them on the front porch and taking the laundry
detergent from our laundry room and pouring it out in the back yard.

In an unrelated story, I happened to be moving out of that apartment the same
day. And the very next day my new apartment also got robbed.

~~~
dredmorbius
Remind me not to rent in your neighborhood ;-)

------
Creyels
I like the (security) services offered by Onefinestay
<http://www.onefinestay.com/hosts>

Everyday someone checks your home and cleans it.

Additionaly they actually turn your home into a more hotel-like experience -
so guests are provided with towels etc. At least for higher priced
accomodations a good choice.

------
eric-hu
Is no one else struck by the peculiar behavior of the tenants?

Scattering bleach powder across the apartment and taking the time to hang up
strange photos seems a bit _too_ erratic to me.

I wonder if the renter has serious mental issues or if this was part of some
intelligent plan (i.e. hired by couchsurfing).

This is PURE speculation, don't cite this post as anything else.

~~~
rdl
one word explains all of this: methamphetamine. (and I say this as someone who
believes in drug decriminalization or legalization)

~~~
eric-hu
I'm generally for (soft) drug decriminalization, too, but I don't have much
experience with meth heads :)

Would someone upped on meth be able to conduct himself well via email, sending
polite thank-you's?

~~~
elliottcarlson
Yes - my experience with meth heads is that they can be perfectly normal in
their interactions, but once high on meth they can be aggressive, obsessive
compulsive and destructive. Granted, this can't only be blamed on meth (or
drugs in general) - the person was obviously sober at some point during this
trip - or at least sober enough to know what they were doing. This all seems
like a planned out event to have fun with a couple of 8-balls and have a fun
couple of days without worrying about what happened to the apartment in the
end.

~~~
shoota
I have seen a Meth head steal something from someone, and then politely offer
to help them look for what they just stole from them.

------
Syama
Personally I think the poster is stupid as f@#&, leaving her apt to complete
strangers and then blaming her loss on someone else. What did she expect?
B&B's usually have someone onsite to prevent things like this from happening.
The person to blame here is the poster and of course the tweakers, not Airbnb.

------
justhw
She trusted them and left for the weekend?

~~~
swolchok
That struck me as odd too -- is this a normal use case for airbnb?

~~~
benmccann
Yeah. The one time I used it, my brother sent a phtocopy of his driver's
license to the apartment owner and she sent him the keys in the mail. I was a
little nervous about it all working out, but all the hotels in the area were
booked or were $600+/night. It ended up being a pretty good experience for us,
but it did require both sides to be pretty trusting.

------
buster
Wow.. that's terrible! I really enjoyed all my couchsurfing and airbnb
experiences so far, they resulted in the best travels i ever had.. it's sad to
see such a thing happen, and i hope the criminaly will be catched and
punished.

Still, i am looking forward for my next airbnb trip, it's a great way to
travel!

------
hobbsmeter2
Why isn't the title the original one explicitly mentioning AirBnb? Bad PR for
YC's portfolio company?

------
danberger
Just out of curiosity, why didn't the victim post any pictures of the damage?

~~~
YooLi
They stole his camera?

~~~
danberger
I would hope she took pictures for documentation purposes... even if her
camera was stolen, she should have borrowed one or bought one for this
purpose.

------
gord
Heartbreaking to read this.

Hang in there.

It may help to think that a) these people are broken in some profound way,
possibly from some early abuse b) this may not be directed at you personally,
you did not deserve this, and this was not your fault

I do think the AirBnB business model needs to take into account some kind of
insurance cover, or set aside some percentage of funds to apply to help in the
edge cases like this - so that some of the practicalities are taken care of [
such as cleaning the apartment, temporary accommodation ] giving the victim
some breathing space to heal from this.

------
blinkingled
I so wish he had a camera at least on the entrance of the apartment. Besides I
hope that since the burglar used Internet for communication the IP address is
recorded with AirBNB or Google and that will help track him/her down.

Horrible story to be sure. Trust no one goes too far but trust and verify
should be the norm. I for one would have thought twice before giving out house
keys to a person who misspelled his/her own last name. I guess as he seems to
indicate AirBNB model/markting fooled him into 100% trust.

------
jasonshen
This sort of thing is bound to happen when you have helped over 1 million
stays between two people who are usually strangers. I think what's more
impressive is how long it took for something this big and this public to
happen. Human beings act in strange ways and you take a risk anytime you
interact with one. I feel awful that this happened to this woman but I don't
think it means Airbnb has a flawed business model or needs to dramatically
change the way they sign up users.

------
imaverickk2
It begs the question, what would be a good verification system for online
identities so that sites like AirBnB can leverage? Also, will your property
insurance cover this or would this be considered albeit _rightly_ to some
extent a carelessness on your part. Come to think of it, like any other
insurance industry, providing insurance (dedicated?) for such people for an
additional X% wouldn't be a bad start - though it might need more volume for
it to be profitable.

------
justin_vanw
Reading this article, my spidey sense was tingling the entire time. For
whatever reason, I instinctively do not believe that the story this person is
telling is the truth.

------
int3rnaut
I wrote a comment 2 days ago about some of the psychological barriers of this
model that AirBnB would have to overcome--and I never even considered the
traveler to be the one who's sketchy/troublesome.

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2802898>

On that note though, it'll be really interesting to see how AirBnB tries to
counter this problem--there's a reason why people are so secluded and things
are so private and fenced.

------
Omnipresent
victim is correct, this was bound to happen to someone and as the service goes
popularity, there will be more victims in the future. AirBnB should have other
security measures in place like providing driver license #, ssn, etc. so that
identity of the person renting the place is assured. With all the recent
funding leading to great PR, bad elements will start coming in. Site is no
longer bound to the nice educated customer base.

~~~
caf
How do you verify that the drivers license, ssn etc are genuine, and not
simply stolen as the credit card numbers are?

~~~
marquis
Send a physical letter to the address of the user's bank account, or other
form of ID?

------
rglover
This is one of those things that made me weary about the home rental business
(not necessarily just AirBnB). While I do feel the idea is great, I'm not sure
I'd be as composed as this person; especially coming back to a destroyed and
violated home. I guess there's no way around it, but this should definitely
add an extra layer of thought before posting your home on AirBnB or any other
service. Scary stuff.

------
inmygarage
I wouldn't be surprised if this was organized and executed by an AirBnB
competitor.

It is just too malicious and meticulously done to constitute a random crime
(do I watch too many crime shows? maybe.) AirBnB just closed a gigantic $100m
round and they are doing phenomenally well, and here comes someone who makes
"everyone's worst fears" about lending out their apartment to a stranger come
true.

~~~
chanon
If the competitor was in the same business, I think this kind of story would
negatively affect them too.

Well, unless hotel chains are cooperating in doing it to tarnish AirBNB's
repuatation - but I still think that is unlikely.

------
chris1024
Is this real? It sounds like a fictional story.It's awfully flowery prose for
someone who was just victimized and "laying in fetal position in her
stairwell." Nowhere does it say this isn't fiction. Awful lot of buzz and no
further response from the author?

The journalist who commented on the blog who checked with SFPD was unable to
find the case.

So -- real or fiction? Someone call in SNOPES!

------
mrinterweb
It is unfortunate that stories like that could really harm AirBnB's
reputation. I am sure that there are plenty of vacation rental stories of
people trashing and burglarizing properties, but the difference is that this
was not a vacation rental. I hope that thieves do not make a trend of preying
on AirBnB hosts to gain access to their private residences.

~~~
mcantelon
AirBnB's policy of "disallowing the exchange of personal contact information
until the point in which a reservation is already confirmed and paid for"
seems like it makes this kind of story inevitable.

------
dools
_"I certainly cannot and do not blame the agency for what has occurred. If
anything, I blame myself"_

Yeah no shit. You let strangers stay in your house for a week and all your
valuables were still in the apartment?

I guess Airbnb could have a "safety" section but this type of warning would be
similar to the "Caution! Hot!" they're forced to put on coffee cup lids now.

------
zeteo
Welcome to the real world, such things are bound to happen. The main question
is: to what degree does AirBnB know the identity of the perpetrator? Let alone
helping the police catch them; but is AirBnB even able to prevent this person
from making a new account and repeating the deed?

------
njharman
Yeah, guess people are different. I would __NEVER __invite strangers to be in
my house alone. Esp not with my stuff still there. I can't comprehend why
anyone would. Can't understand how airbnb is popular service. But, it is. Like
I said people are different...

------
bignoggins
My wife and I been traveling around the world staying at airbnb's for the last
4 months (www.shenventure.com is our travel blog). During our stay in Hong
Kong, our host required a photocopy of our passport or driver's license. I
think this was a clever deterrent on his part.

------
veyron
Of all of the items discussed, the birth certificate, social security and
passport are the most important (imho). Supposing I kept them in a bank safety
deposit box, what would a thief need to get access to that box?

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peterwwillis
Does AirBnB have owner's/hoster's testimonials like CouchSurfing? It really
goes a long way to show someone is trustworthy if they've stayed at 100
people's homes and everyone said nice things about them.

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jackpirate
How could you, in principle, even tell that it was the bnb'ers who did it?
What's to say that they didn't accidentally leave the door unlocked when they
left, and someone else broke in?

~~~
vacri
If nothing else, it takes a while for wet towels to get mildew.

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lurker19
Good explanation of why hotel rooms cost more than AirBnB rooms.

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jmm
Call me insensitive, but I think the drama here is overblown. Renting out your
room to strangers comes with risks. Theft is an obvious one. Could have been a
one or two paragraph post, but maybe this is part of the catharsis in getting
over a robbery.

And now call me a cynic, but I kind of have the feeling that the the public
drama of this complaint is a way of getting the sweetest customer service
response ever from AirBnB. Like, new gear, near apartment, moving costs, all
of it. Almost like a cooked up insurance claim... if it's not that, AirBnB
will probably experience that kind of scam at some point.

------
prayag
AirBnb is not legally liable. They are however morally liable. Every company
does legal. It's the moral compass that differentiates a company and their
founders.

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grandalf
I dunno this seems like a hoax to me. Something is fishy about it. I suspect
it is a negative PR scam aimed at airbnb.

------
hnsmurf
Does homeowner's/renter's insurance cover the property damage from renting out
your place?

~~~
Nutella2
No, it doesn't cover illegal transactions. In many places the Airbnb rentals
are violations of local or state hotel laws. Even in places not covered by
those kinds of laws, it's unlikely that insurance for owners and renters of a
private home covers commercial services in the home. Of course everyone should
check their own policy to be sure.

------
badclient
With a name like Dj Paterson I'm not sure you could even sign up on google+ or
fb.

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swah
There is no way those guys lived there for a week and left no fingerprints.

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sweetchar
How sad. I hope you'll be able to cope from this experience soon.

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cookiecaper
I hate that the author broke out the short skirt rape thing. I don't think
someone that leaves their house to strangers while they go out of town for a
week is quite as innocent as a rape victim that was targeted for lack of
modesty.

~~~
praptak
_Innocent?_ Careless != guilty.

~~~
cookiecaper
Right, but it's bad taste to equate a short skirt with letting someone you've
never met live in your house completely unattended for a week. Most people
have the sense to understand that that is a dangerous idea. I don't endorse
either ransacking or rape, and I recognize that there was a crime that was
committed here and that the victim is still a victim. But I think comparing
that to comments that a woman "deserved" to be raped because of her attire is
over the line and insensitive to rape victims.

~~~
praptak
I only criticized your choice of words: _"I don't think someone that leaves
their house [...] is quite as _innocent_ [...]"_ implies that this somehow
makes them guilty.

I believe that both the homeowner and the figurative rape victim are equally
_innocent_.

------
katieben
It would be interesting to see AirBnB's response to this.

------
innes
Hmmm, somebody changed the title of this HN post from _"AirBnB: Crimes
committed against a host"_...

~~~
jaredmck
yeah, i'm interested to see what the reasoning behind this change is. seems
suspect.

------
fakeer
Trust me, be it AirBnB or FairBnB, just never hand over your home keys to a
stranger - a stranger to "you". Make it a thumb rule.

PS. sad to hear the loss and trauma BTW.

------
shareme
It sounds like AirBnB need to educate first-time users more..

It obviously is not for those people who have property that cannot remove
personal items from said property before doing a earn-my-trust AirBnB person
trial run..

------
mkramlich
The description of what happened, supposedly, is so weird, that I'd bet most
likely this was an astroturfed (setup) incident. On the other hand, never
underestimate just how stupid, mean, random, evil or rude a human can be. The
more I live the greater depths you see. Also, even if this was a
faked/fraudulent event, regardless, it would still be true that this kind of
thing could naturally happen to anybody that makes their place available via
AirBNB. It's statistically inevitable, given the nature of the service and the
nature of humanity.

------
extension
I wonder if the hotel chains would hire goons to do this.

~~~
extension
Ouch. Not sure what everyone has against this simple speculation. The hotels
have already used some sleazy legal tactics against Airbnb and corporations
have been known to do worse when an entire industry is under threat.

I just find it odd that a mere thief would go to so much extra trouble to
destroy things and cause grief.

------
asciilifeform
_Cui bono?_

Hotels.

It seems likely that this "mysterious" crime was paid for by an organization
serving the interests of hotels.

~~~
innes
_Cui bono?_

On some level, the bad bastards who did it.

Alternatively yes, of course. Building 7, Area 51, Chemtrails etc...

~~~
asciilifeform
The apartment-trashing was entirely senseless. The motive was clearly not
theft, for example.

The _simplest_ hypothesis is that the purpose of the crime was to create
outrage - in order to destroy the reputation of AirBnB and its business model.
It may yet succeed in doing so.

~~~
innes
You are aware that there exist nasty people? People who take pleasure in
inflicting pain? _That's_ the simplest hypothesis. There's no need to lurch
into dark conspiracy theories without any supporting evidence.

~~~
asciilifeform
The polite "everything is beautiful" emails suggest against meth addicts. And
it seems like too much work for a run-of-the-mill sadist.

~~~
innes
You're right. This has the fingerprints of Big Hotel all over it.

It's clearly black-ops by a Hospitality-Industrial Complex team.

 _Gimme strength..._

