

Firefox OS devices officially released - mokkol
https://hacks.mozilla.org/2013/07/firefox-os-devices-officially-released/

======
diggan
This is my lucky day to be in Spain! Have been following the project from the
B2G[0] days and will order a phone ASAP. If you are in Spain, you can order
the phone from Telefonica[1] and if you are like me and want to talk with
other Firefox OS nerds, there is a Google Plus community for that[2]

Also, don't forget that if you want to develop for Firefox OS but don't yet
have a device for it, you can run the superfast Firefox OS Simulator[3], super
simple and currently the best emulator for a mobile OS.

[0] [https://wiki.mozilla.org/B2G](https://wiki.mozilla.org/B2G)

[1] [http://www.movistar.es/particulares/movil/moviles-
tarjeta/fi...](http://www.movistar.es/particulares/movil/moviles-
tarjeta/ficha/zte-open-prepago)

[2]
[https://plus.google.com/communities/100988731864612801878](https://plus.google.com/communities/100988731864612801878)

[3] [https://developer.mozilla.org/en-
US/docs/Tools/Firefox_OS_Si...](https://developer.mozilla.org/en-
US/docs/Tools/Firefox_OS_Simulator)

~~~
gebe
I can't say that I have used the Firefox OS simulator extensively but I have
been fiddling around with it a little bit and a lot of stuff didn't seem to
work for me at least (like landscape mode, buttons in the notification menu,
scroll seem to behave very weird in lists and/or gets stuck quite often
resulting in me accidentally clicking on stuff, strange text formatting so
that text gets printed outside of the screen, it crashes when I turn on WIFI,
can't seem to change screen resolution, etc.). So "the best" might be pushing
it, especially compared to the Windows Phone emulator and tools which are
really, really great (but sadly won't be used by most mobile developers for
obvious reasons :) ).

However I am excited to see where Firefox OS might be heading even though I
think they will have a though time fighting it out with other potential "third
spot" platforms for starters.

~~~
soapdog
What version of the emulator you are running? The most recent one 3.0.1 is
pretty solid. Landscape mode and buttons works correctly.

------
pja
Huge kudos to Mozilla for branching out and trying something different. I hope
it works out for them: we could really do with an open competitor to the
Google/Apple duopoly.

~~~
PommeDeTerre
Firefox OS will need to successfully compete against BlackBerry OS, Windows
Mobile, bada and the other quite obscure mobile OSes long before it'll have a
chance to even begin competing against Android or iOS. Many of these
alternative systems have actually shipped on numerous devices, and have actual
users.

And how exactly is it "different"? Firefox OS is really just a limited subset
of what we already have available (and have had for years, in some cases)
under these various existing systems. We can already quite successfully run
HTML5/CSS/JavaScript-based apps on Android, iOS, and BlackBerry OS for
instance. And this is ignoring Firefox OS's inflexibility when it comes to
using languages other than JavaScript (sorry, Asm.js and Emscripten are hacks,
at best), or writing native applications.

It's hard to see how it'll compete on vague notions of "openness" that most
consumers really could not care any less about, while failing to compete on
things that consumers do care about, like functionality and experience. It
can't even really compete on price, given the existence of Android.

~~~
glogla
If I understand it correctly, Firefox OS is different in how it is not bound
to one particular corporation. Mozilla's objective here is "build mobile OS"
and not "sell more devices" like Apple or "get info on people so we can sell
advertising" like Google.

This makes me wonder about privacy and Firefox OS. Does it require arbitrary
account with credit card paired like iOS or Windows Phone? Does it require
account to get most of the functionality like Android? Does it require you to
agree that Google will get your location data for network location service to
function like Android? Does it not allow you to use it without sending (paid)
sms to Nokia with your location, like new Nokia phones?

If it doesn't do any of those things, it is different.

~~~
freehunter
Windows Phone does not require an account paired with a credit card.

~~~
GFischer
However, it is VERY restrictive in its Live account interaction.

I had some very ugly experiences setting up one for my cousin (I stupidly
didn't lie and registered her as being from Uruguay and under 18), which made
the phone behave like a brick ("sorry, no apps available in your country",
"sorry, you have to be over 18 under laws from another country to use most of
the features of this phone").

Changing the Live account did not work, I had to reset the phone and create
another account for her, lying about her age and country so the phone could
work properly (she wanted to use Skype and WhatsApp, not exactly the most
demanding use case).

That stupidity turned me off Windows Phone for the foreseeable future
(although the hardware is top-notch).

~~~
freehunter
That doesn't surprise me. Regional restrictions on apps might not make much
sense, but they're well known and exist on every platform. Same with age
restrictions. You can't enter into a contract with Microsoft or a third party
developer unless you're over 18. It's not just Microsoft that forces this.

~~~
GFischer
"You can't enter into a contract with Microsoft or a third party developer
unless you're over 18"

That only applies for the United States and I guess most European countries,
but it's not universal.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_majority](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_majority)

For example, here in Uruguay, there's a distinction between minors up to 16
years, then they can enter some contracts (for example work contracts, I don't
know where downloading apps falls), and they become full adults at 18.

In the U.S. there are some restrictions up to 21 years old, but they can drive
at 16 (!). My cousin was 17 at the time I was setting up her phone, I'm not
sure, but I guess she might have been legally able to enter a contract with
Microsft at the time.

Google is more lax with its settings, or has better lawyers. Also, if you move
to another country, you CAN change your settings (it's extremely ridiculous
that Microsoft doesn't let you do that).

I can totally understand that Microsoft doesn't want to go over the minutiae
of every small nation to see whether someone is eligible or not to enter a
contract.

I wonder what Firefox OS will do with all these legal restrictions (offload to
the app developers?)

------
nakedrobot2
I think Firefox OS has potentially huge geek (read: early adopter) appeal,
which Blackberry and Windows Mobile do not have - they are dead. Tizen, Jolla,
and others are just obscure specks.

I am rooting for Firefox OS to be a serious contender within a couple of
years. I think it has a strong chance to be #3. Likewise I don't think it has
any chance whatsoever of taking the #1 or #2 spots - those are going to stay
as they are for many years to come.

~~~
shmerl
Jolla has a better appeal I think. Firstly it's a full pledged Linux, not
limited to JavaScript applications only. Secondly one will be able to run
Firefox OS applications on Jolla as well, since the browser there is using
Gecko.

~~~
bad_user
Jolla also inherits all the problems associated with desktop Linux and it
would also have most of the same problems that Android does (fragmentation,
upgrade cycle, etc...).

I like the Firefox OS concept because it has a better chance at being popular
amongst non-technical folks and because, even if it had like 5% of the market
share and no more, even so it would bring benefits to everybody, including
developers, including end-users - because those Web APIs are also pushed by
Mozilla for standardization.

~~~
shmerl
What are those problems inherited from desktop Linux? I don't like the concept
of limited systems like Firefox OS (for me personally) since I prefer more
flexible and feature rich systems, but I see nothing wrong with them in
general, they can be useful in some cases.

The discussion above was about the _huge geek appeal_ , not about the general
appeal. That's why I answered that Jolla has a better geek appeal. Although
they work hard to address the general public needs as well, in order not to
make their system targeted to the tech crowd only.

------
ippisl
I fail to see the value of such devices to the consumer. With android devices
available at $100 with 1gb, android 4, a large screen, and huge market of
highly optimised apps, what can Firefox is offer, except from marketing by
carriers which are usually hated by consumers?

liliputing.com/2013/06/android-gets-cheaper-meet-the-100-quad-core-
phone-59-dual-core-tablet.html

~~~
netcan
I think you need to compare these to whatever low end android you are likely
to find in a local retailer: galaxy mini, Xperia tipo, etc.

My guess is that Mozilla see the low end as the most vulnerable angle. Apple
aren't going low end. Android aren't excluding it, but <$100 phones are an
afterthought.

There is always demand at the lower end. Handset makers are happy to fill it.
Android might be the best current option, but Google aren't focused on this
segment specifically and I think most app developers are developing for high
or midrange phones first. A lot of stuff doesn't work well on a cheap android.
By focusing on less power and smaller screens, they will encourage developers
to make simpler apps that run well on this hardware.

It's still early to tell if they have an advantage over android in this
market, but it makes sense in theory.

~~~
dan1234
Although it's not generally their style, I wouldn't rule Apple out of a grab
for the budget sector. Rumours concerning a low end, plastic iPhone have been
gaining momentum for some time now and they already practically give away the
previous generation spec'd phones.

~~~
seabrookmx
Agreed. They used to do this with the plastic Macbooks (hence their popularity
at Colleges/Universities). Also the iPad mini, though more expensive than some
of its Android competitors, doesn't command the premium price usually
associated with an Apple product.

------
AndrewDucker
I'll be very interested to see how well these take off in the countries
they're launched in.

I don't see them as much of a competitor in the UK/US/etc.- the people there
that want a smartphone have one that's much more higher powered.

But in countries where most people can't currently afford smartphones, this
offers them the chance of having one. And if they can then start to
cannibalise sales from beneath, they have a chance of being a real global
competitor.

~~~
fauigerzigerk
I don't believe people anywhere in the world will keep buying phones for $800.
I believe this has been a fad and it's starting to fade.

~~~
Yoric
I wonder about that.

I see around me a few people replacing their work computer with a cellphone.
That cellphone is more useful for them, cheaper, easier to carry and, with
respect to what they manage to use it for, more powerful.

Of course, that's just a few samples, so I have no idea about general trends.

~~~
roc
Even still, at some point the pocket computer people have will be "good
enough" that they no longer see the value in an expensive upgrade every couple
years.

If people are trying to replace their desktop, perhaps it will take a couple
additional years for pocket computers to be "good enough" at those tasks. But
that won't break the inevitable trend. That will just postpone it a bit.

------
rodolphoarruda
I think we are "almost there" in terms of freedom of choice and usage of our
mobile device. We are still dependent on the carrier - e.g. Telefonica - to
have our phone running our OS of choice. Of course, we have unlocked phones,
but that's another thing, another price too.

I wish my experience with mobile phones were the same as with laptops: every
two years or so I step into a shop and buy a low-end machine on sale, go home
and install the latest Ubuntu LTS version.

When I first read about Firefox OS I thought I would have the experience as
described above. I would buy ANY phone, donwload the Firefox OS, install it
and enjoy mobile life from a different perspective. As I said, I think we are
"almost there". Maybe that's where Ubuntu Mobile is aiming to.

~~~
sergiosgc
I used to do that with laptops. Then, I switched to the opposite end of the
spectrum. I spend inordinate amounts of time in front of my laptop. If I'm
going to outspend myself, it is on the laptop. The personal concession is that
laptops must now last at least four years.

Now, whenever I need a laptop, I buy the best Lenovo I can find (well, not the
absolute best, I aim for best-ish; price curves on laptops are stupid at the
very high-end).

So far, it has worked better than the expendable machine style.

~~~
voltagex_
I managed to limit my laptop's lifespan to ~1 year by ignoring this advice. I
bought the X1 Carbon with 4GB of RAM, instead of waiting for the 8GB (with a
significant processor bump too).

Oh for a laptop trade-in program.

------
mariusmg
I'm very curios to see how FirefoxOS compares to WP7 on low power devices. If
the UI is as smooth as WP7 i'm looking forward to getting one.

------
jdmitch
It seems to be the same hardware as the ZTE V790 but with half the memory :
[http://www.gsmarena.com/compare.php3?idPhone1=5134&idPhone2=...](http://www.gsmarena.com/compare.php3?idPhone1=5134&idPhone2=5320)

------
arantius
This release prodded me to look into Firefox OS again. I have a Nexus S lying
around unused, and that's one of the supported "tier two" devices. So I
installed it.

I really want to love it. I love Firefox, but Firefox OS is very much "not
there" based on my experience. The browser is significantly worse than Firefox
for Android. As far as I can tell, Sync is not available at all. Tapping the
URL bar just/always puts your cursor where you tapped (does not select the
text for easy replacement). Lots of smaller fit/polish things seemed much
worse.

And the device experience is really strange. There's the "marketplace" but
also the .. I don't know what it's called, two swipes to the left of the app
launcher screen. The experience is very poor compared to Android/iOS; using
familiar "apps" is really the mobile site for that service, and doesn't work
as well as the Android apps I'm used to. (I.E.: Rating a movive in IMDB takes
one tap to load another page, one tap to open the select box, another to pick
the value, then another to submit that form. Versus one tap on Android.)

Lots of the "real apps" from the marketplace are also immediately greyed out
if you lose data. Including simple games that totally should work offline.
(Though I was recently surprised by how many games refused to run without an
internet connection on my Android tablet recently, also.)

~~~
Yoric
> And the device experience is really strange. There's the "marketplace" but
> also the .. I don't know what it's called, two swipes to the left of the app
> launcher screen. The experience is very poor compared to Android/iOS; using
> familiar "apps" is really the mobile site for that service, and doesn't work
> as well as the Android apps I'm used to. (I.E.: Rating a movive in IMDB
> takes one tap to load another page, one tap to open the select box, another
> to pick the value, then another to submit that form. Versus one tap on
> Android.) > > Lots of the "real apps" from the marketplace are also
> immediately greyed out if you lose data. Including simple games that totally
> should work offline. (Though I was recently surprised by how many games
> refused to run without an internet connection on my Android tablet recently,
> also.)

You should complain with the app authors and get them to improve their mobile
website and/or their manifest. This will be beneficial to everyone.

------
znowi
I'm really excited about Firefox OS. It's a timely alternative to iPhone
Garden and Android PRISM :)

------
indeyets
I wonder why ZTE chose to sell this device thru operators. Just push them to
retailers or sell online with worldwide delivery!

~~~
mogrim
Presumably lowers the risk: try the devices out on a smaller market, iron out
the inevitable bugs, and then release worldwide?

Lower costs, too: Telefónica will be paying for most of the marketing, the
sales channels, they might also be providing engineering help...

------
mogrim
And here it is in on sale: [http://www.movistar.es/particulares/movil/moviles-
tarjeta/fi...](http://www.movistar.es/particulares/movil/moviles-
tarjeta/ficha/zte-open-prepago)

------
shmerl
While I'm excited for Mozilla and for creation of wider choice in the mobile
space, Firefox OS targeted devices aren't that interesting to me. I'd rather
wait for Jolla's handsets to arrive. Not only they'll run glibc Linux proper
(Mer based Sailfish OS), they'll also have a Gecko based browser which will be
able to run Firefox OS applications as well.

------
AndrewDucker
I'm curious - does it automatically get the latest version of FF when it's
released for desktop/Android? And does it support all of the functionality
that comes with it?

i.e. will it now have the asm.js optimisations and similar?

~~~
Yoric
I'm not sure about asm.js/OdinMonkey. I believe that FirefoxOS 1.0 does not
have it, but that FirefoxOS 1.1 (which should be available as a free over-the-
air update) has it.

More generally, FirefoxOS does not automatically get the latest version of
Gecko, because the process for mobile operating systems is more complex. The
operating system must first pass certification by (if I recall) both the
constructors and the operators. This operation is both long and costly, so it
is probably impossible to follow the Firefox desktop/Android 6 week release
cycle for the time being.

However, if I had to guess, I would assume that FirefoxOS will receive about
one big update every few months, with all the new features and optimizations
of Gecko. I know, for instance, that some of the optimizations I have added
recently to Gecko have missed the release train for the next version of
FirefoxOS (I believe that's still 1.1) but should be part of the release after
that.

~~~
mcintyre1994
Can you give an idea of how you expect that to work compared with Android?
Given that Firefox OS devices seem to be cheap and low end, how likely are
constructors and operators to perform a "long and costly" process to upgrade
them regularly? Cheap and low end Android devices have terrible support from
both, even for upgrades without new hardware requirements, is there any
indication that they will better support similar Firefox OS devices?

~~~
shardling
I _believe_ that in a previous thread, FirefoxOS devs were hopeful that the
way the OS is "layered" will make this less painful -- that upgrading Gecko
should be much easier than upgrading Android versions, because it wouldn't
introduce driver issues etc.

Updating the underlying kernel would be more arduous.

------
frankblizzard
make them available already for developers world wide! geeksphone is always
sold out

~~~
Yoric
Well, it's easier to make software available for developers world wide than to
make hardware available for developers world wide.

Anybody interested in porting FirefoxOS to every single Android device on
Earth? :)

~~~
diggan
You can always do it yourself!

[https://developer.mozilla.org/en-
US/docs/Mozilla/Firefox_OS/...](https://developer.mozilla.org/en-
US/docs/Mozilla/Firefox_OS/Building_and_installing_Firefox_OS)

[https://developer.mozilla.org/en-
US/docs/Mozilla/Firefox_OS/...](https://developer.mozilla.org/en-
US/docs/Mozilla/Firefox_OS/Porting)

------
jb-
So far, HN has directed me towards some considerable profits (see Bitcoin,
TSLA). Where should I go this time? Telefonica Stock? Alcatel stock?

------
shacharz
Do they support WebRTC?

~~~
diggan
Well, not right now but they are working on it. You can follow the progress
here:
[https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=750011](https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=750011)

