
On the Symmetry between Microsoft and Apple - sharmanaetor
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/24/on-the-symmetry-between-microsoft-and-apple/?_r=0
======
aculver
Stopped reading at: "[Apple is] selling products that are little if any better
than competitors, at premium prices. How can it do that?"

This is such a ridiculous statement. Apple's notebook line is dominating, not
because it's "little if any better" than the competitors, but because it's
head and shoulders above the competition. They've systematically and
iteratively refined, both in software and hardware, all the most important
bits of portable computing. Battery life. Display quality. Weight. Size.
Noise. Keyboard. Trackpad. Durability.

~~~
MichaelGG
I'd say the design, keyboard and trackpad are rather subjective if you think
they're "systematically better". The Retina display currently is better than
other offerings, but even the Nexus 10 offers similar DPI. Give me a ThinkPad
with a N10 display over a MacBook anyday.

Also, there's no real reason Lenovo, Dell, etc. can't start shipping higher
quality displays, keyboards, etc. While Apple's products are apparently
solidly engineered, most of it is perception and design.

~~~
kposehn
> Also, there's no real reason Lenovo, Dell, etc. can't start shipping higher
> quality displays, keyboards, etc. While Apple's products are apparently
> solidly engineered, most of it is perception and design.

I disagree with this statement entirely, for one big reason: you're leaving
out Apple's mastery of the supply chain.

There are certainly component makers out there that will build stuff and slap
it together for you, but Apple is the champ of running the whole stack with a
relentless eye towards quality control. Think about the design and
manufacturing of an iPhone, iPad or MacBook Pro. These are not things that you
can compete with easily.

There is a massive amount of effort involved in order to build a machine of
comparable quality to an Apple device, and that remains one of their key
advantages in the market. This is also an advantage they are dead-set on
keeping. Most competitors don't have anywhere near the supply chain controls
that Apple commands, and often don't even design their own devices (Dell).

Finally, quality is a very important component of design. The prettiest laptop
in the world is bad design if it falls apart or feels flimsy. Think less about
design being the way something looks - instead, add how it feels, sounds,
_smells_ even, and every other part of the way you interact with it. That is
design.

~~~
MichaelGG
Dunno about your experience, but mine and everyone I've talked to seem to
think IBM ThinkPads had top notch build quality (minus the gripe about the
screens). The keyboards, even on the 12" X-series are as good as any full-size
kb save the Ergo 4000. Trackpad with 3 buttons is amazingly useful. Then
again, ThinkPads are in another realm, and aren't cheap for good
configurations. So Lenovo certainly _could_ pull it off if they don't screw it
up.

------
CrunchyJams
"By 2005 or so, it will become clear that the Internet's impact on the economy
has been no greater than the fax machine's." \- Paul Krugman, 1998

[http://web.archive.org/web/19980610100009/www.redherring.com...](http://web.archive.org/web/19980610100009/www.redherring.com/mag/issue55/economics.html)

~~~
shawkinaw
Thus proving the title "Why most economists' predictions are wrong".

~~~
pachydermic
Of course, that's just a corollary to "the future is hard to predict."
Honestly, what group of people gets it 'right' with any kind respectable
frequency?

------
jonnathanson
He's a little out of his element in this space, and a lot of his article feels
like off-the-cuff ramble without much support.

But he does raise one really strong point: namely, that Microsoft's lead was
largely secured on the back of enterprise sales -- a tougher moat to build,
but a very protective and lucrative one once built. Apple's lead was secured
on the consumer side, and consumers tend to be two things in the long run:
price-conscious and fickle. Consumers picked cheaper and more ubiquitous
Wintel machines over the more beautiful and expensive Apple machines in the
90s. Now they're picking cheaper and more ubiquitous Android devices in
sufficient numbers to threaten Apple pretty seriously.

It's way too early to write Apple's epitaph in the mobile war, but things
aren't as rosy as they once were.

------
liber8
This is ludicrously, hilariously, almost unbelievably ironic, coming from
Krugman:

>> _" In general, the thing about Apple is that it reflects the spirit of
Steve Jobs, who knew what was good for you — and left you no way to do things
differently. And if you are an atypical user, you end up putting a lot of
effort into fighting iOS in order to do simple things."_<<

It should baffle me that this problem is so obvious to Krugman and others in
the field of electronics, but simply beyond mention when it comes to
governance. It doesn't baffle me because it's clear that Krugman and others
stopped being scholarly thinkers as soon as they gained a national audience to
preach to.

------
dragonwriter
The headline here is, well, bizarre. The headline on Krugman's article is "On
The Symmetry Between Microsoft And Apple", and the conclusion is that Apple's
dominance now on mobile is less secure than Microsoft's on the desktop at the
peak of Microsoft's desktop dominance.

Which is, for one thing, quite a bit different than the characterization in
the current HN headline (he doesn't say anything like "Apple Is Doomed") and,
for another, quite obvious (I mean, just compare Apple's current marketshare
in any relevant market to Microsoft's at the peak of its desktop dominance, or
compare the trends.) Apple is well past its peak dominance in, say, mobile --
and at its peak it was less dominant there than Microsoft was on the desktop
at its (much longer) peak. Heck, less so than Microsoft is on the desktop
_now_.

In fact, Apple's trajectory in mobile is a _lot_ like Apple's trajectory in
the "personal computing" space in the 1980s -- lead initially, establish a
firm loyal base willing to pay premium prices, and then starting losing the
rest of the market (which has lower margins) to other players. Really, except
to exploit attention directed at Microsoft because of the current CEO drama,
there's not a lot of reason to look to Microsoft's history for a comparison,
when Apple provides a better one in its own history.

~~~
pessimizer
The headline is genius. It's meant to appeal to the frenzied foamy
intersection of pro-Apple and anti-Krugman maniacs.

------
guylhem
Krugman says so many wrong things - about bitcoin for example, but not just
about that.

So, who cares ?

Also, he seems to miss how many people complained about Microsoft in the 90s
while most people seem very happy with their Apple products.

~~~
tristan_juricek
Right, it's a little disappointing that the blog of a fairly well-known
economist just uses some basic anecdotal evidence. I'd hope he'd provide some
kind of deeper insight, but I guess that's what passes for quality on the
Times these days.

------
joshstrange
> the wonderful people in the Wilson School IT department, who have saved my
> life multiple times, aren’t set up to deal with Apple products.

I would argue that not only do you have full access to the Apple Store
geniuses but if you happen to not have a Apple Store near you there will be
Apple certified repair people you can use. Also I would guess that you would
not have to get your mac repaired anywhere near as often as you do your
windows machine.

------
cyphunk
"I’ve had an iPhone — which, sad to say, did not survive dunking in water —
and now have a Samsung, and the differences don’t seem huge"

everyone new to contemplating the mobile scene always seems to miss out on the
longer term advantage of apple phones due to upgradability. it's an absolute
hell with andriod. im not saying this will create a swing back in apples
direction for marketshare, not at all. I'm just saying that difference is
indeed huge to anyone that looks at it.

(disclaimer, I've had iphones and andriod phones and i think they all suck
equally. i role on motorola c155 with 3 text line display)

~~~
tadfisher
OS updates are not something non-techies think about, in my experience. For
the vast majority of users, they mostly care that their favorite apps continue
to work, and this is something that Android provides good tools for.

~~~
saltyknuckles
The problem is when your favorite app stops supporting your Android Frosted
Cup Cake on a phone that was abandoned by its maker.

~~~
tadfisher
That's an issue with the maker of your favorite app, as it is their choice to
abandon older versions of the platform.

~~~
cyphunk
and hence we come full circle to the argument that the fragmented update
makeup in andriod adversely effects apps and users than ios. (again, i have
neither and dont care... but one clearly has a problem)

------
clarky07
This article is pathetic on so many levels. He starts off saying he basically
has no clue about technology or the industry, and then concludes with Apple is
doomed because it's hard to organize his youtube downloads in iTunes. Really?

There is no reason this should be on the front page, and the only reason it is
there is because the headline has been editorialized.

Edit: also, this from the guy who said the internet's impact on the economy
would be no bigger than the fax machine -
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6342272](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6342272)

------
mathattack
Apple may or may not be doomed, but one thing I've learned over time is not to
trust economists straying too far from their turf. Krugman blaming a dead CEO
on his inability to use an iPhone does not equate to calling up the corporate
coffin maker.

When I saw the title, I was hoping for a more economic reason about trade,
network effects or competitive advantage.

------
ericssmith
I have to back him up on iTunes. I hate it. I've always hated it. I'm not sure
it dooms Apple, but I've seen lots of products die as a result of infuriating
design choices. It takes a while, but it does happen.

------
mtarnovan
This article, along with most of the stuff Krugman wrote about bitcoin, is
utter bs. Apple is doomed cause iOS doesn't let Krugman organize his Youtube
downloads.

~~~
msane
Completely agree. The parallel he is drawing between MS in the 80's and Apple
now is some kind of uninformed fantasy. He even says "I am not a tech industry
maven, so I am busy coming up to speed"... Then he side-steps and says his
real complaint is:

>So, my problem with Apple. In general, the thing about Apple is that it
reflects the spirit of Steve Jobs, who knew what was good for you — and left
you no way to do things differently.

His example is that iTunes doesn't do what he wants it to do.

Well it doesn't always do what I want it to do either, but as a product it is
an enormous success and it earns _Billions_ of dollars. So that's nonsense.

The best part of this article is that Paul Krugman listens to Arcade Fire!

------
pachydermic
Weird post - he's definitely a smart guy, but clearly not an expert in this
area. In fact, he sounds a lot like my dad.

Why do we care what he thinks here?

I am a big android fan, but I definitely see differences in quality between
Apple products and others. I don't care as much about the polish, though - I
like the freedom that android can afford.

But comparing Apple now to Microsoft in their hay day is not original,
compelling or even that accurate. I mean, they're still selling computers,
true, but the whole space seems pretty different than how it was when
Microsoft was dominating... isn't that why Microsoft's in trouble in the first
place?

I guess his point is more general - that Microsoft gained market dominance not
through making a superior product, but simply by gaining traction and having
the largest consumer base - that may be true, but Microsoft allowed a lot of
freedom and control over your devices while Apple does not. Furthermore,
Android has dominated the market in terms of numbers for a while now and yet
Apple is still in the game - presumably due to the quality of their products,
not the fact that lots of people use them.

Anyways, I'm probably rambling. My point is simply that Krugman should
probably sick to his area of expertise.

------
mcd3
Eh. He is right about Apple forcing you to work their way, and only their way.
Try to select all on iPhone email, or try to access the file system. For the
computer literate, the lack of these options on a stock iPhone is beyond
annoying. they are just a sample of frustration encountered when using Apple
products, no mater how good their quality is.

------
makerops
Krugman orders a pizza. Guy asks if he wants it cut into 6 or 8 slices.
Krugman says, '8 please. I'm very hungry today.

-GSelevator

------
gutnor
> "My casual impression is that Apple’s lock isn’t nearly as secure, in part
> because it’s relying on the loyalty of individual customers — in contrast to
> Microsoft, which was largely relying on the loyalty of corporate IT
> managers, who are inherently more conservative."

The important thing is right in this quote. Apple cares about making product
we want to buy, not product we are forced to use.

To stay relevant, Apple needs to keep going. And because they rose so high,
they pushed other players to offer amazing product to compete. That's almost
like capitalism at its best.

Of course they could fail, and they will not be saved by IT Managers inertia.
Well too bad, I will have fond memories like I have fond memories of my C64
and Amiga500.

I certainly prefer that to the bland pc market.

------
Tloewald
Krugman's a smart guy about a lot of things, but he didn't get computers and
the internet, didn't believe that measured productivity gains from using them
were real (to his credit, he did publish a mea culpa or two years later) and I
think he's just as ignorant about what differentiates Apple's products from
Microsoft's. It's interesting that he doesn't understand the difference
between their value propositions (Microsoft is competing, in a sense, with
Google -- which sucks because Google gives away its products -- while Apple is
competing with Amazon and Samsung).

~~~
dragonwriter
> It's interesting that he doesn't understand the difference between their
> value propositions (Microsoft is competing, in a sense, with Google -- which
> sucks because Google gives away its products -- while Apple is competing
> with Amazon and Samsung).

In what space is Apple competing with Amazon or Samsung where it is not also
competing with Google?

------
rafski
He doesn't get that iTunes is not a media player, but a music and video shop
sneakily embedded in your computer. Media player functionality is only added
there to lure you in so you would buy content from Apple.

Obviously, Apple doesn't care for your youtube videos. But I wouldn't expect a
Keynesist to understand the nuances of how modern products are structured and
real product often concealed behind a freebie.

If you want a media player, just download one. My favourite is AVPlayer for
iPhone (and AVPlayer HD for iPad). Plays all formats I tried.

~~~
lurkinggrue
Shame they don't offer an easy way to get files into the iPhone.

But that would get in the way of lock in.

------
jack-r-abbit
Huh.. if he says that then it isn't in this article. The word "doomed" does
not appear anywhere in the article... not even the title.

------
gshakir
Not sure if I agree. Apple consistently provides better experience because
they control both hardware and software. Google is now realizing that or else
they wouldn't have built nexus.

------
saltyknuckles
I feel like its just one of those days where you have to turn something in but
procrastinated and said "Fuck it, I'll just compare Apple and Microsoft". Slow
day...

------
andmarios
Just hit a paywall, so it would be nice to read at least a summary of the
article.

------
teilo
The Mantle of John C. Dvorak has been passed to Paul Krugman.

------
crazychrome
it's an important lesson: someone i respected wrote something he has little
knowledge about destroyed the respect.

------
tn13
Isn't he the same Economist who went bankrupt himself ?

~~~
robkeane
No, that was satire that breitbart and the boston globe fell for:
[http://www.mediaite.com/online/paul-krugman-bankrupt-
boston-...](http://www.mediaite.com/online/paul-krugman-bankrupt-boston-globe-
breitbart-com-fall-for-satirical-daily-currant-story/)

