

Ask YC: MBP or Thinkpad - speedwagon

[Note: I've been reading here for a while but I haven't posted before, so I apologize for making my first post a self-centered request...]<p>I'm currently laptop shopping, and can either pick up Thinkpad T61 or a Macbook Pro (pre-Penryn refurb) for roughly the same price. I've always liked the Thinkpad keyboard and sturdiness, but a lot of people I respect seem to be migrating to Macs. It would be nice to buy a computer and not have to install a new OS right away, but I worry that I'll break the MBP.<p>I'm a college student and greenhorn programmer, so I'd love to hear your advice or experience.
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vlad
1) Join Apple's Student Dev Program for $99.

2) Buy a Macbook Pro 15 inch glossy screen Penryn for $1599 from the Dev
Store, with an upgrade to the 250GB drive.

3) Buy VMWare Fusion for $39 from Studica.com.

4) Buy 4GB of memory for $99 from Crucial.com.

5) Install OS X, Windows, and Linux into VMWare Fusion and break the operating
systems as much as you want.

Total cost for a mobile machine you can take with you so you can break it as
often as you want: about 2,000 after taxes. I'll have all the steps up
(including other things to install) at some point for everybody to see.

~~~
elai
All of that gives you an extra $100 discount on the MBP vs. the normal student
discount. If your willing to wait, there's usually a special extra promotion
(like a free ipod nano in the last one) for students starting around june/july
to sept. In the iPod nano case, if you sell it, you can get a $150 extra
discount. Wait for the student promo and see what it is before you do what
this guy says. (Also newegg.com or ncix.com is a better deal than crucial)

~~~
vlad
If you get the 17inch high resolution Macbook Pro or the Mac Pro, you're
talking about savings of $400-$500 by my estimate.

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mattmaroon
I can tell you that the Thinkpads are better built and far more reliable. Even
most Macbook owners I know who've had both will agree. We had 3 newer MBPs and
a 1 yr old Lenovo X60 for 6 months in California. It seemed like the Macs were
in and out of the shop constantly, experiencing all sorts of weird problems.
Like most Apple products, the hardware is of mediocre quality and drastically
overpriced, and the service is atrocious.

But you don't buy Apple comps for the hardware. If you like OSX better (and if
you're programming, you most likely will) get a Macbook. Even with the
troubles we had, our 3 programmers all agreed that they would not have
switched back to Windows. We joked that we'd just keep an extra MBP on hand at
all times, and honestly it's not such a bad idea.

Either way though I'd never buy a MBP refurb. That's just asking for trouble.

~~~
mariorz
You know there is also this new OS called Linux. Reportedly works great on
apple hardware too... And also, yes, many people buy apple machines for the
hardware.

~~~
mattmaroon
If using Linux, I'd recommend the Lenovo hands down. The hardware is clearly
superior and significantly cheaper.

~~~
mariorz
I'd recommend a macbook for linux, precisely for the superior hardware to
price ratio, but many aspects of how you define superiority come down to
personal preference I guess. My point only was that lenovo+windows and mac+osx
aren't the only choices at all. In fact, I may be mistaken, but I think
speedwagon wasn't even considering windows as an option.

~~~
mattmaroon
I don't understand how you could ever recommend a macbook for "hardware to
price ratio". They usually cost at least 50% more than a Lenovo, and maybe my
experiences and those of my friends have been unusual, but they generally seem
to be pretty poor. Battery life is atrocious, all sorts of display problems,
same hard drive problems that every OEM has. Lap-burning heat. Ridiculously
expensive power bricks. Poor wi-fi antenna (my Lenovo's antenna is sickeningly
good.)

I gotta give them credit though, their magnetic power cord connector is nice.
I haven't gotten to play with the multitouch pad either, that might be nice.

~~~
mariorz
thank you for that completely anecdotal evaluation of apple's hardware. My
personal experience has been different, however, unless you have some kind of
defects-per-million data or some such, I'll stick with what I said, it mostly
comes down to personal preference. Anyway I didn't intend to get into a
useless argument. My point, as I've stated before, was that you seemed to be
not considering a decent OS to go with the thinkpad

~~~
mattmaroon
Ha, yeah, this subject is as close to religion as you get here. I more than
anything wanted to see how far I'd get down-modded for saying something bad
about Apple. Even though I think it's true (Apple's hardware really is pretty
poor and expensive) based on what I'd consider a large anecdotal sample size,
and just using each for a little bit, I was just curious to see what happened.
I'm shocked to still be in the positive.

~~~
mariorz
I don't see why most of the people here would have any problem criticizing
apple. Like say, on all their evil attempts at music industry domination,
restrictive apis and what not. We do admit they make some sexy hardware tough.

~~~
mattmaroon
You're applying logic to religion. It just doesn't work that way.

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tptacek
Consider the Macbook, instead of the Pro; the extra thousand dollars doesn't
really buy you that much. One of the best things about the current Apple
portable line is that you can always buy the cheapest (at around $1100) and
still get an excellent machine.

~~~
halo
I'd like to extend that principle to computer hardware in general.

Unless money really isn't a priority, or you're doing something which
absolutely relies on top-end performance, buying high-end hardware is
unnecessary and the cost will outweigh the surprisingly slight real-world
advantage.

Buying mid-range is the sweet spot in terms of build quality, performance and
price and even if it means upgrading 6 months earlier the savings are
considerable.

~~~
neilc
If you're a professional developer, I think a slight improvement in
productivity can be surprisingly valuable. When it comes to monitors, for
example, I'm quite willing to pay the extra for a 30" monitor or for dual 24",
as opposed to just buying mid-range (say, a single 22"). Of course, not all
high-end equipment is worth the premium, but IMHO if you're spending a
significant amount of time on the computer and using it to make your living,
it's a false economy to not buy the best equipment.

~~~
whalliburton
Eh, I'm currently running with a $25 craigslisted sony trinitron 21" and an
IBM thinkpad that I think I paid $200. Plus some old dell keyboard. Don't
forget about the used market. The key is that I'm really only using it as a
terminal into servers out there somewhere.

I consider myself a professional developer.

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rms
OSX is great, but you can get a really powerful new Thinkpad with SUSE
enterprise preinstalled for a good price. An effectively maxed out Thinkpad
with 4 gigs of RAM and discrete graphics is $1200.

I've been using a Thinkpad X41 tablet as my laptop for a while. Nothing
important has broken, but some non reinforced plastic has broken/is breaking
off, like the door to the PC card slot. The build quality is still better than
all other Windows laptops, which is really sad.

~~~
rms
I should probably note that most people seem to treat their laptops better
than I do. I've dropped it several times, splashed it with liquids, etc. So
it's holding together pretty well, all things considered. It's old enough that
it is still branded IBM, it may be true that the build quality has gotten
worse over time.

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Zak
I was faced with this decision about a year ago. I went with the Thinkpad in
large part because of the pointing device; I love the trackpoint. I've also
disassembled quite a few Powerbooks, iBooks and Thinkpads and found Thinkpads
to be less fragile in general. Pinched video cables and bad BGAs seem to be
pretty common on the Macs, but it's easier to damage the outer case on a
Thinkpad.

Both are fine laptops, and much better made than the average machine. You
won't go wrong either way.

~~~
bluelu
When I bought my first laptop with a university discount, I could only buy
thinkpads and was a little worried because it had no touchpad at all. Luckely,
I bought one anyway. The trackpoint is awesome, like the thinkpad's
themselves.

I only had to replace one motherboard once (2 days until I got hte motherboard
back) on an old R32. It still works today, even though it has now 5 years. As
does a T42 and T60 which are used daily.

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obelix
I have a MBP [pre penryn, btw, amazon sells it now for $1520 after rebate,
which is what I bought, not refurbished].

I also have a Thinkpad T42. I use the ThinkPad for 'work' and MBP for personal
coding.

I prefer the MBP for almost every aspect. It is not flawless, like the mouse
acceleration with external mouse SUCKS and it does not play well in a docked
situation [has its quirks].

My T42 has had 4 HD crashes in 2 years, a fan death. The Thinkpad feels very
flimsy. MBP is built rock solid.

Finally having OS X [I do RoR on the MBP on *nix platforms] pretty much
settles it. I used to run Ubuntu on the T42, but somehow the MBP feels
complete for coding.

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nickb
What will you use it for? Are you going to use it for development?

To me, the choice is simple: MBP runs OS X, other laptop doesn't. Since my
whole toolchain depends on unix tools and TextMate, I really don't look at it
as having a choice.

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AF
Please be smart and go with the ThinkPad (parcticularly a T61p).

Right now they have a 25% off sale on them, not to mention you can get another
5% off if you have a Visa card, or are a student, or a number of other things.
In addition to this there are usually other coupons you can use.

I was able to purchase a T61p (more or less the same specs as a Macbook Pro,
including the same graphics card (same internally) for $1250 (this includes
tax). I got that price because the discount ended up being some 40% or more.

To get about the same Macbook Pro would cost me another $400 at the very
least, closer to $500, and I don't think that's including the upgrades I'd
have to make to the Pro to get certain features (like a 7200 RPM HD).

I received the ThinkPad several weeks ago. It is very sturdy, and so far I
have really liked it. I've had quality issues with Macs before, but I see no
problem with this laptop.

If you want to save at least $500 for an equivalent machine and you don't need
OS X or some other Mac-specific item, I would definitely recommend looking
into the T61p.

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apathy
What you said -- you're going to install Ubuntu -- leads me to believe that
the Thinkpad will provide better value. I have serious trouble using any
laptop without a Thinkpoint anymore, because I hate moving my hands away from
typing position.

Plus, you can always get parts to repair the Thinkpads on eBay. It's harder
and more expensive to repair a Macbook. Having rebuilt both types, I'd stick
with the Thinkpad, and that in fact is exactly what I do -- get used Thinkpads
that other people are discarding, fix them, and use them. When I've completely
destroyed a laptop, I sell it for parts on eBay, and start looking for a new
one to fix.

I haven't paid for a computer in 10 years, as a result.

However, it occurs to me that this has insulated me from the Lenovo takeover.
I'm pecking on an X31 right now. It's great. Took some fussing to get it to
hibernate in Linux, but now it works fine. I don't know if the newer Lenovo
models are as reliable as the old IBM warhorses.

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brent
t61. Mine has been rock solid. I run ubuntu and everything works great. This
is my second thinkpad (last one was ~4 yrs ago). I have not had any of the
issues anyone has listed about thinkpads with either one. Mine have worked
like a champ. That said, it won't pick up chicks like the Macs ;-) <see Guy
Kawasaki's Air article>.

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tx
I have ThinkPad T61, MBP and a regular Macbook. For programmers Linux running
on a ThinkPad is the thing to get. OS X isn't nowhere close to Linux if you're
a coder.

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thrill
After years of using Thinkpads of various types myself, for my son's college
work I got him an HP 2710p convertible tablet, and it has worked very well for
him (I didn't like the Thinkpad tablet at all) - I'm thinking of getting a
second HP tablet for myself to run Ubuntu on it (I use that exclusively these
days on half a dozen different servers and notebooks around here (including my
still going strong old A20P), after using several other distros over the last
decade). We had gotten him a Motion Computing tablet, but were quite
disappointed, and not that surprised nor unhappy when it broke a few days
after the warranty expired. Anyway, the HP tablet is fairly nice and might be
a third option for you.

~~~
neilc
Have you or your son used the HP tablet with Linux?

A tablet seems nice, but not nice enough to justify using XP or Vista...

~~~
thrill
Not yet. Even with the slowness of Vista the (convertible) tablet is an
awfully handy device frequently enough to be worth the premium. When he
returns this summer we're going to install Ubuntu and, if needed, setup XP (or
maybe Vista) in Virtualbox (which works beautifully with XP for my single need
of checking web development renderings with IE - Virtualbox is untested by me
with Vista). There are Onenote-like programs for Linux these day, but I
haven't tried them.

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stcredzero
I'm still using a G4 Powerbook. The aluminum mac laptops are a pain to
disassemble. The MacBook Pros are improved over the Powerbooks, but you're
still dealing with lots of little jeweler's screws. If that's not an issue,
then I think Mac laptops are great. Also, do not drop them on their hinges.
That won't necessarily break them, but they will get distorted and not close
in exactly the same way again.

I also own an old Thinkpad T22. I like them as no-nonsense laptops that run
Linux well. But if you want something that is just put together and just
works, and ultimate ruggedness and graphics card speed is not a priority, I
recommend the Mac.

~~~
hassy
I heard that more screws is better in laptops, though I'm not sure why.

I'm still using a 12" Powerbook as my laptop too. I've had it for 3 years now,
and don't have a single complaint. I love how it fits into pretty much any
bag, and how the battery lasts 3 to 5 hours.

~~~
stcredzero
Yeah, the design aspect is great. The thing looks great, it fits anywhere, but
if you need to repair/upgrade the thing, it's a major pain!

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initself
I like the T43 better than the T60p I have, but of course the specs aren't as
good. There is something more straightforward about it. I've gotten
refurbished models that have never let me down.

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kjell
I can't speak to thinkpads, but I've had two silvery mac laptops: first a 12"
powerbook and now a 15" MBP. Both have treated me exceedingly well. The one
problem I've had was that I managed to knock the shift key off of the
powerbook keyboard one time. It was a bitch to get back on properly, but once
I did, it was good as new and stayed put. The 12" is still going strong—I
passed it off to my sister after upgrading. The 15er is a bit big and a bit
heavy for my tastes, but the extra screen space is worth it.

My only testimony towards the durability of my macbook pro is this. I bike
everywhere, and two times now I've fallen with the MBP in my backpack and
knocked it with some force against the ground. The remainder of those rides
I'm always sure that the $2000+ hunk of aluminum in my bag will be ruined, but
when I get where I'm going and pull it out, it works like a champ.

~~~
speedwagon
This is good to know - I also commute by bike, hence my concern about build
quality.

Incidentally, I'm overwhelmed by the response rate to my question. I posted it
two hours ago, expecting to be ignored as a newcomer, and went off to do some
reading. I can't thank everyone enough for the feedback, although I'm still on
the fence.

~~~
apathy
Get a padded sleeve for your laptop. I paid $9 for a Timbuk2 sleeve at REI on
sale. I've taken some whoppers on my bike with my laptops in my messenger bag
(enough to put me in the hospital) and the sleeves seem to do a really good
job of protecting them.

If you are in the market for a new messenger bag, the re:Load people have a
particularly thick sleeve that they used to offer at a discount when you
bought one of their bags. (which rule)

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sashas
I was looking at both types of computers as well: I chose the MBP (pre-
penryn). I made the switch to Mac but also have VMWare fusion to run XP VM's
for my java developing (work) and Vista (from my boot camp partition). I feel
like I definitely made the right decision--I have a hassle-free computer (OS X
is amazing) and the option to run windows when I need to (IBM Rational Java
development for work). The T61 is one solid computer--but having to muck
around with Linux is a pain and Windows Vista/XP, though decent, just aren't
as versatile as OS X (of course this is based on my experience). Plus, you get
to work in an environment with the option to use a Unix Terminal (no need to
mention MS's Unix Terminal here...). The experience you'll get learning and
using Unix commands for your development is invaluable.

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xirium
I've had four laptops: two Mac Powerbooks, one iBook, one IBM Thinkpad T43.
The T43 was definitely the worst. With the T43, recovering from suspend was
the most dicey and the build quality was junk. I hear the quality has declined
since the division became Lenovo.

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kirubakaran
You may also find this thread useful:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=131359>

(I have a T61 and asked YC if buying a MBP will give me significant
advantages.)

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madsgormlarsen
Mac users are often said to be religious about their choice of computer, but
they just love the product they have.

I love my Mac :-)

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morbidkk
what about sony vaio? vaio has very nice keypad and excellent battery life.

