
Why N95 masks are hard to make - aaavl2821
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/03/16/814929294/covid-19-has-caused-a-shortage-of-face-masks-but-theyre-surprisingly-hard-to-mak
======
creddit
I do believe these masks are also made in the US, but this situation
highlights exactly why a country having its own major manufacturing base is
not just an economic need but rather also a national security need. The US
needs to invest in itself immediately to rebuild its lost manufacturing base.

In economic terms, under certain definitions and assumptions that are typical
under modern economics, a trade war such as the current US-China trade war
result in welfare losses. I believe, however, that when national security is
taken into account (ie having the ability for the country to rapidly respond
to productive capacity needs in a time of crisis), the trade war along with
serious investment in expanding industrial capacity is likely net good.

~~~
echelon
All the workers being replaced by automation and having to rely on "gig
economy" work could pursue manufacturing instead. We have the workforce.

We can pay workers livable wages and give them meaningful work. Cost of goods
could be reduced through greater efficiency. Research into robotics and
automation could fuel a new decade of American growth.

~~~
jdietrich
_> We have the workforce._

That's the problem - you don't. By definition, the kind of efficient, highly-
automated manufacturing you're thinking of doesn't need many unskilled or
semi-skilled workers, but it does need skilled and experienced engineers and
machinists. It needs a massive and complex ecosystem of suppliers and support.

The depletion of America's industrial base has created a massive skills gap
that would take decades to remedy. You can't create a new Silicon Valley with
a bunch of bootcamp graduates and some wishful thinking; likewise, you can't
create a manufacturing economy through sheer force of will.

~~~
hguant
This reminds me of a conversation I had at a New Year's party not too long ago
- a gentleman I'd never met before and I got to talking, and in the process of
getting to know one another (however much you can know someone after 4-5
drinks at a black tie party you go to once a year), he bemoaned the issues he
was having trying to open a US branch of his company. Apparently medium scale
sheet metal forming operations in the States have all but disappeared -
everything is either outsourced to China, or is small scale, high precision
work that can't meet demand of more than N hundred pieces a week. It's a
boring issue - "oh no, there's no one to subcontract this work to, you have to
buy from China for X percent of what it would cost to do here" \- but speak
volumes as to the loss of a critical component of that manufacturing
ecosystem.

~~~
owenversteeg
>Apparently medium scale sheet metal forming operations in the States have all
but disappeared - everything is either outsourced to China, or is small scale,
high precision work that can't meet demand of more than N hundred pieces a
week.

I can personally confirm this. Very unfortunate, and I'm positive it's helping
stifle innovation. Having to go to China for your custom sheet metal needs
(with the communication difficulties and shipping times involved) can be
-really- debilitating.

~~~
rwmurrayVT
You can get custom sheet metal work, if you're willing the pay the price and
possibly are in the right industry. Sheet metal, welding, carpentry,
pipefitters, and pretty much every trade are in massive demand in
shipbuilding/repair.

NNSY fails a significant portion of welder applicants just because they can't
lay a proper weld. They pay... a lot of money.

~~~
owenversteeg
"the price" being something borderline extortionate, in many cases. And there
aren't a lot of options. In China there's someone everywhere that can do what
you want; in America, you'll have to search.

You can get lucky and find someone with some brakes and benders that does
cheap work for farmers, but people like that are usually extremely hard to
find and mostly in rural areas.

And yes, welders do make more than someone at McDonalds or doing landscaping,
but the myth of the super-high paid welder is mostly that. I just looked up
NNSY welder salaries - average of 49K, and that's with a lot people there
being experienced and there for a long time.

~~~
rwmurrayVT
Completing the welding apprenticeship at NNSY results in an hourly wage of
$29.73. The overtime pay schedule at NNSY. The issue online is complicated
because NNSY also has "shipfitters/welders". They are paid substantially less
than production welders. Production welders at a repair yard like
BAE/Colanna/Lyon make in the range of $27-$30. They also make significant
overtime.

I agree that the myth of the super-high paid welder is mostly fabricated, but
when it comes to shipbuilding at a nuclear yard it's a lot higher than you
would expect.

------
Leary
"Currently, of the 200 million masks China makes a day, only 600,000 are N95
standard masks, used by medical personnel, according to the National
Development and Reform Commission, a state planning body. "

Wow, that is not enough.

~~~
chuckledog
There is quite is quite a bit of information readily available about
sterilizing disposable N95 masks with UV-C light. While not nearly as good as
a fresh mask, this might be a preferable alternative to reusing the same mask
unsterilized.

[https://www.ajicjournal.org/article/S0196-6553(18)30140-8/pd...](https://www.ajicjournal.org/article/S0196-6553\(18\)30140-8/pdf)

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4699414/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4699414/)

[https://www.peakprosperity.com/forum-topic/can-uv-light-
disi...](https://www.peakprosperity.com/forum-topic/can-uv-light-disinfectant-
box-kill-viruses-off-n95-mask/)

The UV light needs to have a wavelength around 260nm (shorter wavelength than
standard UV light). Such UVC lamps are cheap and readily available, commonly
used in consumer products for aquarium water sterilization and air
purification. Example replacement bulb: GermGuardian LB4000 GENUINE UV-C
Replacement Bulb for AC4300BPTCA, AC4825, AC4850PT & AC4900CA Germ Guardian
Air Purifiers
[https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0055522F6/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_4D...](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0055522F6/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_4DzCEbW8QFQ9V)

~~~
doodlebugging
I believe that microwaving a used mask could also be an effective way to
sterilize the mask. (0)

I found this information by following links from the CDC website a few weeks
ago when I was exploring the possibility of buying masks for my family and
found that they were already being hawked online at ridiculous prices.

Perhaps steam and/or use of a pressure cooker could also be effective. Many
people who do home canning of food goods have a pressure cooker and are
already familiar with usage and cleaning.

The article posted suggests that this could be a viable method of home
decontamination of used masks if I read it right. I also found an article that
touched on use of a steamer to accomplish similar results. I can't find that
article right now but if I do I will post it for review. Microwaving alone,
without adding water to generate the steam should kill most water-based
organisms. The article I read stated that microwave times from 30 seconds to 5
minutes were used. I need to find that article...

What does everyone else think? I'd be interested in hearing.

(0)
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3078131/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3078131/)

~~~
SirLuxuryYacht
This[0] article goes over recommendations for extended use, reuse, and risks.
It also has a healthy list of references, some of which are by Fisher et al.,
the author of the paper you linked.

Most masks have a metal tab bending over the bridge of the nose, as well as
metal staples for the elastic bands, which would prevent you from microwaving.
Cartridge type filters would work though.

[0][https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3373043/#!po=12...](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3373043/#!po=12.5000)

~~~
doodlebugging
I had considered the metal parts of the mask to be a potential problem. In the
worst case scenario it should be relatively simple for mask owners to remove
the metal tab from the nose and the staples holding the elastic bands before
microwaving.

Once they are done in the microwave the bands could be stapled in place with
your ordinary stapler and the band reattached with hot glue. Those who have a
needle and thread could also stitch a sleeve onto the nose piece that is open
at one end and just reinsert the metal nose piece once it is out of the
microwave. The thin metal should withstand several bend cycles before needing
to be replaced and it can be replaced with any thin aluminum strip which one
could obtain from lots of places around the house or at the hardware store.

The bands and straps could be washed in ordinary soap to sterilize them before
reuse.

Just thinking outside the box here. What do you think?

~~~
tim333
Apparently salt on the mask kills viruses
[https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/01/170105160228.h...](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/01/170105160228.htm)
[https://www.businessinsider.com/mask-coated-in-salt-
neutrali...](https://www.businessinsider.com/mask-coated-in-salt-neutralizes-
viruses-like-coronavirus-2020-2)

I was going to DIY. Soak in brine then dry the thing.

~~~
Engineering-MD
I believe it also recommends the addition of a surfactant to make small
crystals and a more even coating

~~~
doodlebugging
I read the same thing. Glad to see others investigating their options.

I'm not sure a DIYer could accomplish this without compromising the filter
media unless there were kits available or a crystal clear guide for the task.

I realize that you can just wash the mask to remove the salt and surfactant
and in the process any pathogens will be killed by the salt and soap. However,
if you have to wait on this to dry between uses since the washing will fill
some percentage of the pore spaces with water then you haven't accomplished as
much as you could have if you had simply microwaved the mask in a boil-in bag
allowing the steam to do the same work. As a bonus, people already know how to
use microwaves and most have them at home.

I'm not trying to say that salt and surfactant doesn't work, only to say that
this is better accomplished in a controlled environment with equipment that
can insure that crystal size is controlled and filter media is relatively
unaffected.

------
aaron695
As has already been talked about on HN, during Ebola, research was done into
any mask.

And yes normal masks do work.

Once again the medical community needed 100% and people thinking of they are
clever because they know a factoid are hurting reality.

------
koolba
> China now makes 200 million face masks a day — more than twenty times the
> amount it made at the start of February.

That’s an insane number of masks.

Does one in seven Chinese wear a fresh one _every day_? Is this gonna be the
new normal?

~~~
stubish
Only 600,000 of those are N95 standard, suitable for health care and using the
special fabric in short supply.

Mask wear in Asia is common, for smog, smoke and controlling flu. The cheap
ones don't last long, and often replaced instead of put through the wash.
Common mask usage requires use of cheaper, more comfortable masks rather than
the health care certified ones.

~~~
bootlooped
I would wear an N95 mask sometimes in Asia, to mitigate the pollution. I
didn't throw it away after each use. I imagine their use by medical
professionals to be a much different case though.

I think a lot of Asian people wore the cheap cloth ones. I have learned
recently that these sometimes have replaceable inserts inside them.

~~~
adrianN
The masks filter pollution about as effectively after prolonged use as when
they're new. The problem for medical use is contamination with germs.

~~~
Scoundreller
> The masks filter pollution about as effectively after prolonged use as when
> they're new.

Filters generally get _better_ at filtering as they get dirty. A pore with a
mountain of dirt/dust over it gets even better at only permitting gasses
through. But that also means less and less flow, until you're letting nothing
through at all.

I think the other problem for medical use is moisture buildup. A
damp/wet/sweaty N95 doesn't let gasses through very well.

~~~
jhanschoo
Do you have a source for that? The recommendations I've seen suggest
otherwise, and this matches my intuition.

Wear creates and enlarges pores, and also, pores of the right size get clogged
resulting in more flow over pores that are too large to filter.

~~~
Scoundreller
Depends on what's hitting the filter. All "wear" will enlarge pores by
definition, otherwise it's not wear.

And in your example, if pores are 0.1-0.3micron, and you have uniform
0.2micron particles hitting it, yes. But reality isn't usually so uniform.

Shards of glass will create more problems for the filter media than shredded
N95 mask dust :)

A mask covered in saw dust will slow down and make a particle hit against the
filter more turbulent = less chance of forcing its way through.

------
wigiv
Does anyone here have any personal, specific, actionable knowledge of the
melt-blown plastics process? Are there alternatives for achieving the N95 (or
sufficient) filtration levels in a different sheet material?

Automating many steps of assembly are [more] straightforward, but this
precursor material supply really is a problematic bottleneck.

------
arminiusreturns
Not all masks are N95 people. It's crazy the amount of grandstanding and
virtue signaling going on here. I have had a P100 mask for years with filters
in stock, and I am wearing it out on town if I have to.

[https://www.coopersafety.com/respirator-
types](https://www.coopersafety.com/respirator-types)

~~~
kkarakk
P100 doesn't stop coronavirus...

~~~
tomerico
Can you explain why a P100 would be worse than N95?

~~~
seppin
N95 doesn't "stop" COVID19 other unless you wear it over your eyes too.

~~~
newguy1234
but it does stop covid from entering through your nose and mouth....which is
the most likely path you are to get it.

------
bitL
Difference between surgical and N95 mask characteristics straight from CDC:

[https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/pdfs/UnderstandDifferenceInf...](https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/pdfs/UnderstandDifferenceInfographic-508.pdf)

------
Ixqprint
In fact, ordinary people do not need N95 masks. General medical surgical masks
will do. Even as long as the mask is waterproof. After all, wearing a mask is
mainly to prevent the virus from spreading through saliva.

~~~
muyuu
Ordinary people benefit from the extra protection as well. N95/FFP2 masks are
more effective protecting from virus in the coronavirus family and this is
tested.

Obviously, the more exposed you are the more you benefit from extra measures.

------
anticensor
They become so scarce that Turkey has put these masks under a prescription
regime.

------
dehrmann
Generally good quote about Chinese manufacturing:

> China can be all over the place. Sometimes you think you're in a Western
> factory. Others are kind of like a dirt floor sort of shanty trying to pass
> their stuff off as good as the other guys. And maybe it is.

~~~
canada_dry
Not representative of medical equipment manufacture in China (I trust), but an
interesting look nonetheless into typical manufacturing process and it's utter
lack of OSHA and environmental controls:

[https://youtu.be/83GDV0xsTTs?t=545](https://youtu.be/83GDV0xsTTs?t=545)

------
agumonkey
any simpler process to make nanofiltering ? not necessarily tissue but maybe
ceramic, or other solids (like activated charcoal)

~~~
tcbawo
Do we even have to do nanofiltering? What about a breathing mask/apparatus
like firefighters use? In theory they should be quite reusable.

~~~
redisman
A gas mask is very taxing to breathe in. I'd imagine the doctors doing 12-16h
days would be passing out left and right.

------
droithomme
Surgical and homemade masks are much better than nothing. And by better than
nothing we mean reasonably effective.

Going into close contact with a person who has a known transmissible
respiratory illness? N95 is minimum if you are a professional. And get your
union to scream bloody murder if you are not allowed this essential safety
equipment, and put complaints in writing so your heirs can later sue to
oblivion.

Trying to massively reduce your risk when going out for supplies, or living
with someone infected and have no other options? Surgical and homemade are
vastly vastly vastly better than nothing.

Extremely antisocial, harmful, dangerous? Shaming those wearing masks.

~~~
treparist
Surgical and homemade masks are much better than nothing.

/Thats basically a misinformation. They are completely useless, and if you
dont change them each 40-50 minutes - bring you more damage then good

~~~
1996
> Thats basically a misinformation. They are completely useless, and if you
> dont change them each 40-50 minutes - bring you more damage then good

Evidence required.

If mist forms on my glasses from breathing, I assume the mask must be doing
something.

I read a comment the other day on how many efforts are impeded by the "quest
for perfection"

I know such homemade masks are not 100% proof. But even if they only work to
reduce 10% of the risks if everybody wore them, than can be the difference
between a R0 of 1.1 and 1.0 - and gives great results overall.

Don't just think about yourself. We are young and at no real risk of dying
(0.1%, whatever). But we may cause the death of other people by simply
contaminating more people.

Small actions are better than doing nothing when facing exponential growth

~~~
stubish
Even the N95 are not 100% proof, even if used correctly. Any barrier helps,
and the claim that mask use promotes false confidence is highly dubious.

~~~
ardit33
So, are condoms, they fail, can be worn improperly, etc... yet they are
recommend over and over for safety reason....

Same with masks, they are not perfect, they could be miss-handled, yet they
provide some degree of safety and are better than nothing.... otherwise why
would health officials wear them at all?

------
ironmagma
This is the price we pay for outsourcing our manufacturing capabilities. We
should have kept in-house manufacturing alive, there is plenty of capacity for
it here in the States.

~~~
dan_quixote
Easy to say now, but there's just not enough manpower to make _everything_ in
house that we deem strategically important. And if the price isn't viable on
the free market, how is it justifiable long term? I generally agree with your
sentiment though.

~~~
ironmagma
Not enough manpower at the moment, for sure, but we should create it through
education and social investment. It's generally a strategic advantage to have
manufacturing capabilities no matter what discipline; it's less that we are
reliant on China for this one particular thing and more that we have allowed
our once-strong manufacturing muscle to atrophy. We subsidize gas heavily
because it's a strategic advantage to the nation; call it a hunch but I think
there are more knock-on benefits to being able to make stuff than is readily
apparent (and I thought such a view would be more popular on _Hacker_ News to
be frank).

~~~
generatorguy
I think you are bang on with capabilities vs capacity. We should have one
factory for anything critical so that in case we can’t get as much as we need
on the free market we can ramp up capacity by building more of the machine
that makes the product. If you don’t have all of the know how that is in that
machine or plant design already in your one factory making the product you are
starting from zero. Hence why all of China’s cheap labour deals had technology
transfer riders.

------
droithomme
I made a dozen good homemade masks in a few hours, and I am inept at sewing.
With some practice I could make 200 a day. There's no point to doing so, it
would be illegal for me to sell them.

US is doing nothing whatsoever to ramp up mask or ventilator production. It's
going to result in a lot of deaths.

~~~
creddit
Of a material that is sufficient to meet the standards of N95 masks?

~~~
stubish
Doubtful, given poster said masks and not N95 masks. Like the 199 million
masks being produced in China daily that are not N95 per the article. Cheap,
easy to make, comfortable enough to use for extended periods of time, and
reduce chances of catching and spreading respiratory disease (but not
considered good enough for hospital use, at least until the good ones run
out).

------
dba7dba
To all those MBAs who excelled at squeezing out the last dollar at any cost to
the US society, thanks.

~~~
mardifoufs
What? How is it the MBAs fault that production was cheaper elsewhere and that
consumers always seek the lowest prices? Do you think they should've just ran
losses to cover for the rest of us in case of a global pandemic? This has
nothing to do with corporate executives and everything to do with national
policy.

