
Suicide Rates Among Adolescents and Young Adults in the United States, 2000-2017 - laurex
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2735809
======
gwbas1c
Over the last two decades I've seen a dramatic increase in stressful academics
at schools: More homework, more intense classes, ect, ect.

I went to a "college prep" high school that was harder than my college. As I
became independent, I realized that intense academics stole my childhood and
didn't have the value that the adults believe they have.

At the same time, when I lived in Palo Alto, I used to hear about how one of
the high schools, (Gunn?) had a very high suicide rate due to the stress of
academics. Someone (Caltrans?) put fences around the train tracks to try and
stop suicides.

(I wish commenters wouldn't immediately blame social media.)

~~~
rygxqpbsngav
Stress at schools? I hail from India and when I was a kid in 90s, I carry 10Kg
bag to school and has to do homework in 7 subjects, and get beaten by stick if
I fail to do any of them separately by respective teachers, and has to spend
time till 10pm after school (ends at 5 pm) at tuition to finish the homework.

My view on social media and parents giving smartphones to kids is the primary
reason. When kids start overusing phones and digital world, everything seems
binary, they can feel like they can control people in real-world as if thy do
a 3d character in their latest game. And can get depressed when others don't
behave as they intend to. A friend becomes a removable entity in a list or
circle(google+) they can add or pluck out anytime, without considering the
emotional factor others feel. I can talk on this topic whole day, i believe
kids don'e need smartphones etc. and I will never bring my kids near them at-
least till they reach their teen years.

~~~
sandworm101
The stress in the US system is very different. Indian schools (basically the
oldschool british system I grew up with in boarding school) are _hard_ but not
stressful. Performance metrics are clear and students know what they have to
do. US schools have become strange minefields of nebulous collage prep. Grades
are given, everyone gets As. So students are forced to pad their resumes is
other ways. You don't see indian students picking sports based on whether they
can make team captain. You don't see average Indian students participating in
4+ team sports during a given week.

I've talked to Canadian kids who, when caught using steroids, have said that
their performance on the field was part of their entrance plan. They had
consciously decided to take drugs not to become pro athletes, or even to win a
scholarship, but simply to get into a proper university. Similarly, I haven't
heard of many indian students taking "learning drugs". I heard an ivy league
admissions person talk about the sports thing. She spoke of a boarderline case
involving an athlete who had competed at the Olympics. He had failed to medal.
THAT was part of the schools decision, whether they metaled or not actually
mattered.

~~~
mrfredward
I rarely see others mention it but I have a pet theory that grade inflation
makes school more stressful. When A's are expected, a single bad day can
easily sink a semester of effort. Additionally, as you say, grades don't leave
much room for students to distinguish themselves positively anymore. Student
have little room to excel, but every day is a chance to screw up.

~~~
dgabriel
My son is a junior now in a very competitive high school, and they had to do
away with valedictorian/salutatorian because the difference between that and,
say, just top 5% would be a 99.6 vs a 99.4 in one class in the 10th grade. It
was so stressful for these kids, like it even fucking matters long term.

~~~
SolaceQuantum
The narrative is that it does matter long term- it supposedly defines which
college you get into.

~~~
AlexandrB
How much does getting into the right college matter though? I'm not sure about
the US system, but in Canada it doesn't feel like it matters all that much.
Some schools are a _little bit_ better than others, but it doesn't feel like a
world of difference (at least when it comes to STEM). I've especially noticed
this when interviewing candidates from various schools.

~~~
saltminer
It doesn't really matter outside of fields like investment banking, parents
(and college prep companies) place an artificial importance on it for the most
part. In a tougher economy prestigious schools can provide useful connections,
but in a bullish economy a degree from a regionally-known state school is
equally valid.

------
armandososa
I am a voluntary youth minister at a local low-to-middle class church in
Mexico so I have a lot of contact with adolescents (Which is unusual because
I'm married, almost 40 and have no kids of my own). And what I've seen is that
it has become cool or fashonable to be depressed, anxious and to have some
mild mental disorder like TOC or ADHD. Kids "brag" about it on social media
and sometimes discuss who is more miserable and make fun on people who are
"wholesome" or "happy" as being shallow. They constantly make jokes about
being worthless and wanting to die and being secretly sad (even when they are
broadcasting it on the internet).

I'm not saying that they are faking it, and I know their lives look
significantly shittier than mine at their age and the future looks bleak for
most, but I have a theory that when it becomes viral some people try to act
depressed and end up being depressed for real. Like, when I was adolescent I
knew a lot of girls with eating disorders (bulimia/anorexia) in my immediate
circle (before social media) but I don't think I know anybody with those
problems today, because having those issues became uncool, now you have others
to pick from.

So yes, what I'm trying to say is that I had paralyzing social anxiety before
it was cool.

~~~
everdrive
Thanks for mentioning this. This has been the norm for at least 15-20 years.
It wasn't until I was in college (early 2000s) that I realized popular and
happy people weren't inherently bad. Where did I get the idea that popular
people were malevolent? And where did I get the idea suffering gave me
validity? Who knows. What I do know is that this misconception was a big waste
of time.

~~~
throwaway876123
> Where did I get the idea that popular people were malevolent?

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master%E2%80%93slave_morality](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master%E2%80%93slave_morality)

~~~
everdrive
Thanks, I've seen this idea espoused, but didn't realize it had a formal name,
or originated with Nietzsche. I'll read further.

~~~
pwodhouse
It's my older. Aesop published the gable of Sour Grapes.

------
mullingitover
My big-picture theory of this is anomie[1]:

> The nineteenth century French pioneer sociologist Émile Durkheim borrowed
> the word from French philosopher Jean-Marie Guyau and used it in his
> influential book Suicide (1897), outlining the social (and not individual)
> causes of suicide, characterized by a rapid change of the standards or
> values of societies (often erroneously referred to as normlessness), and an
> associated feeling of alienation and purposelessness. He believed that
> anomie is common when the surrounding society has undergone significant
> changes in its economic fortunes, whether for better or for worse and, more
> generally, when there is a significant discrepancy between the ideological
> theories and values commonly professed and what was actually achievable in
> everyday life. This was contrary to previous theories on suicide which
> generally maintained that suicide was precipitated by negative events in a
> person's life and their subsequent depression.

Just look at when this took off: right after 2008, when any notion that they'd
be taken care of and their futures were secure was swept away. The adolescents
who came of age during that event will probably spend the rest of their lives
with lingering economic insecurity and fear about the future.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anomie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anomie)

~~~
hestipod
That's what really did it for me. Losing any notion of security or a future.
Initially I thought losing my physical health was the worst of it, but the
losses of relationship and financial (and thus physical) security were an
order of magnitude worse.

------
hristov
There have been many articles on rising suicide rates especially among kids
and young adults, but they tend to not mention a very important possible
factor. And that is antidepressants.

It is well known that antidepressants increase the risk of suicide for
children, teenagers and young adults (i.e. people under 25). The FDA has
acknowledged this and even put warnings on the drug packaging. Yet
antidepressants are still routinely prescribed for children and teenagers.

This is something the media does not like to talk about considering how pharma
companies spend a lot of money on advertising. But it is a very important
possible factor and it should be considered.

~~~
jamesmp98
When I was 11 or 12 I was put on anti-depressant and anti-psychotic
medications (some off label). Several years later, it's discovered the company
had illegally marketed one of the drugs to minors and it had developed into
negative side effects in some patients, for which there was a class action
lawsuit. Luckily, I never developed said side effects personally, but it did
leave a level of distrust with pharma companies and to an extant the medical
field

~~~
avgDev
I mean big pharma creates mistrust time after time. Look up Bayer selling HIV
infected blood products in Africa after removing it from the North American
market.

Opiates were marketed as sleeping aid for babies.

Synthetic opiates, such as tramadol were marketed not to be addictive that
turned out to be a lie.

Many medications were taken of the market due to side effects, and often the
pharmaceutical company knew and downplayed the side effects.

Anti-depressants were also supposed to be safe and non addicting, but
withdrawals are actually insane.

I have been nearly crippled by an antibiotic and again side effects are
downplayed, and FDA is updating the label year after year adding more and more
side effects and not recommending the medication as first line treatment
anymore.

~~~
opportune
It's also an issue that sometimes statistically insignificant adverse side
effects can be successfully used to litigate against pharma companies.

For example as a teenager, I desperately needed accutane. Other solutions
weren't working and some had actually more severe side effects than accutane;
one tetracycline gave me heartburn so severe I basically couldn't eat
anything, whereas the most accutane did was dry out my skin.

But because of studies that found a link to increased rates of
depression/suicide among people taking accutane, it took years for me to work
my way up to taking it, with very bad damage to my self esteem over that time.
And if you look up the studies that promote this link, they are obviously not
properly controlled, because they compare accutane users to the general
population, and not to a subpopulation that has acne bad enough to need
accutane. Which is dumb because lots of people (like me) who were taking
accutane already had depression not because of the medicine, but in part due
to very low self esteem and social ostracization due to the acne that was bad
enough to warrant taking that drug.

So the symptom they were trying to prevent was something I already had, and
withholding the drug because of concerns about that symptom contributed to
making the symptom even worse for me.

~~~
fucking_tragedy
To contrast your experience, I was prescribed an oral retinoid as a teenager.
As someone who was already depressed, what followed was one of the worst
depressive episodes of my life.

There's definitely a fine line to walk between effective treatment and harm
reduction when it comes to that class of medication.

Sorry to hear about your experience. I hope things are better now.

------
nonwifehaver3
This has some graphs showing the suicide rates for different age groups:
[https://www.newscientist.com/article/2207007-us-suicide-
rate...](https://www.newscientist.com/article/2207007-us-suicide-rate-at-its-
highest-since-the-end-of-the-second-world-war/)

There is a clear curve upward in the 15-24 and to a lesser degree the 25-34
group starting in 2013. I don't think there was a big economic downswing at
the time, so it could be other cultural or technological factors at play.

~~~
GhostVII
The suicide rates by ethnicity are very interesting as well - white people
have a significantly higher suicide rate (2x) than most other ethnicity,
despite presumably facing fewer problems overall.

My theory is that they can't attribute issues in their life to things like
racism/discrimination, so they perceive failures in their own life as their
own fault rather than the fault of a racist society. That also seems to fit
with suicides dropping during the world wars, when there is something else
which you can blame for your problems, suicide rates are lower. I have nothing
to back this up though so idk but it makes sense to me, blaming someone else
for your situation is a common way to make yourself feel better about it (and
is reasonable in many cases I think, there are lots of things you can't
control which contribute to failures in your life).

~~~
Miner49er
Maybe, another theory I've heard from Chris Hedges is that minorities never
believed in the myth of the American Dream.

White americans have been told as kids that if you go to college, and then
work hard, you'll be rewarded with a good life. This generation of people are
finding this to be a con. Look at the lack of wage increases since the 70s
even though productivity has increased a lot or look at the student debt
crisis for some proof that it was.

Minorities, on the otherhand, were never taught to believe in the American
dream, because they haven't really had it in the past.

Now that white people are figuring out it was a myth, and that they are going
to likely end up with a worse life then their parents they are commiting
suicide, commiting mass shootings, etc.

Here's the article. There's some stuff in there I'm not so sure about it, but
I think the general idea has some merit.
[https://www.truthdig.com/articles/american-
anomie/](https://www.truthdig.com/articles/american-anomie/)

~~~
jniedrauer
This rings true to me. They told me that if I worked hard, then I'd be
successful by default. At some point in my early 20s, I realized that it
wasn't true at all, and it hit me like a ton of bricks. I was severely
depressed and felt like a failure, right up until the point where I
accidentally stumbled into being a programmer and turned out to be good at it.

~~~
unicornfinder
I know this feeling very well, made considerably worse by the fact that I
happened to be friends with some people who for various reasons did end up
being very, very successful. It took me a very long time to realise that they
were the outliers rather than me being a failure, and I still doubt myself.

------
WhompingWindows
They feel pressure socially and academically; they look ahead in time and see
inequality, climate change and automation; they look at their phones and see
social media and its ills; they look around them and see others committing
suicide, being addicted to something or other, or they just generally see a
shitty society in the US today. Their politicians are old white men catering
to old white folks and rural folks. They see the Iraq/Afghanistan Wars and the
financial crisis, low wages, hollowed out Rust Belt...It's not hard to list
many reasons why my peers have been lost to suicide in increasing numbers.

I myself have lost a close friend from scouts. He was a complex person, orphan
from another country adopted into affluent US family. Struggled to fit in, he
was short and heavy, but he had a kind soul and loved to blacksmith, making
swords and weaponry. He never quite succeeded with girls or social circles,
but eventually he met a girl on WoW finally, moved across country for her,
since he felt he had nothing else positive in his life. She married then
divorced him within 2 years, and he killed himself soon after, feeling he had
no other prospects and having no adequate treatments for his depression.

~~~
mooseburger
More fundamentally, it's a problem with secular society. Really, if the only
goal of life is achieving material prosperity, and you're not achieving it,
there's no particular reason not to kill yourself, other than holding on to
hope, which is quite irrational in some circumstances.

------
whatshisface
Everyone wants to jump on this with their personal theory of what's wrong with
the world (because that's what bothers them), but suicide isn't based on
rational negative beliefs like the ones we have. It is a symptom of mental
illness, which has completely different causes.

~~~
flatline
Mental illness is one - very modern - modality for why one may want to do any
number of seemingly irrational things. I think that a blanket lumping of
everything into the bucket of "mental illness" is problematic for a few
reasons:

\- the only implied remedy is seeking help from a mental health professional.

\- said professionals are in short supply and high demand and are inaccessible
to many people for financial and other reasons.

\- there is often a proximate cause of acute depression that may be remedied
to prevent suicide without addressing deeper underlying causes.

\- a blanket labeling of "mental illness" is about as specific and helpful as
"demonic possession" or any similarly vague term.

\- many psychological issues have organic components that are better addressed
by a doctor.

~~~
whatshisface
All of those apply to physical illnesses: they usually mean you should see a
doctor, doctors are in short supply and often inaccessible for financial
reasons, oftentimes there is a proximate cause that a healthy lifestyle can
get rid of, and being told you have a "physical illness" isn't specific enough
to be helpful. All of these things are true, but it doesn't make "physical
illness" a non-true or useless idea.

~~~
flatline
Indeed, and just saying “physical illness” is pretty meaningless. Beyond that
though, there’s sadly a lot more empirical data and practices behind medicine
than psychology/psychiatry. You go to a doctor, you can get a diagnosis and
effective treatment for many conditions in relatively short order. Therapy is
generally the start of a years-long process. Psychiatry is more guesswork than
science. That’s not to say they aren’t extremely helpful for many people, but
I don’t see the two fields as being equivalent.

------
ravenstine
You can use sci-hub.shop to read the full text.

Interestingly, the trend of suicide among females seems to be unaffected. The
rate is steadily increasing, but the trend has been nearly the same since at
least 2000. There's a noticeable increase in the suicide trend for males
starting in 2013. (If I'm interpreting the graphs correctly)

~~~
user17843
Since the media is all about feminist propaganda nowadays, this fact is not
being mentioned in the headline.

Although it is the most important part of the data. Why are men increasingly
chosing to end their lifes?

Could there be a relation between the growing dominance of anti-male 4. wave
feminist viewpoints in society and propaganda in the media and this
statistics?

Coincidentally the fourth wave feminism started exactly one year before the
increase in suicides.

~~~
dang
" _Eschew flamebait. Don 't introduce flamewar topics unless you have
something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic
tangents._"

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
user17843
The question of corellation between both aspects is definitely worth to be
asked, and it's relevant.

~~~
dang
It's ideological battle, which the site guidelines explicitly ask you not to
do on HN. Once someone starts going on about "feminist propaganda" or any
other classic ideological flamewar topic, curiosity departs, the same way wild
animals depart a forest fire. Please don't do that to the threads here.

------
jackschultz
I've always felt this fit into Gladwell's article from the New Yorker about
gun violence:

[https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/10/19/thresholds-
of-...](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/10/19/thresholds-of-violence)

The overview is that for gun violence, one act makes the next one slightly
more likely. When people see someone perform an act, ones like shootings or
suicides, others see it as somewhat more acceptable.

Here's a relevant quote:

> In the elegant theoretical model Granovetter proposed, riots were started by
> people with a threshold of zero—instigators willing to throw a rock through
> a window at the slightest provocation. Then comes the person who will throw
> a rock if someone else goes first. He has a threshold of one. Next in is the
> person with the threshold of two. His qualms are overcome when he sees the
> instigator and the instigator’s accomplice. Next to him is someone with a
> threshold of three, who would never break windows and loot stores unless
> there were three people right in front of him who were already doing
> that—and so on up to the hundredth person, a righteous upstanding citizen
> who nonetheless could set his beliefs aside and grab a camera from the
> broken window of the electronics store if everyone around him was grabbing
> cameras from the electronics store.

Take out riots, and add suicides, and there's a match.

I know people can have different opinions on Gladwell, but I feel this is a
very well thought out writing about it, and in a way that isn't talked about.

Here's a podcast episode where he talks about it too:

[https://www.newyorker.com/podcast/political-scene/malcolm-
gl...](https://www.newyorker.com/podcast/political-scene/malcolm-gladwell-on-
understanding-school-shooters)

------
sambull
I'd expect to see a sharp increase. Hope is a key component to mental health,
as hope erodes people will feel lost and sad. The very real crisis that many
of us have start to feel will only get more pronounced as time goes on.
Further resource constraints like less water, additional heat and bad news as
people will have to move, causing local instabilities that balloon into
regional or international conflict. The future for young adults is grim, where
I live they compete with multinational banks to buy homes. Then end up renting
from the same people. Like many other large issues in our country those
entrenched in power have taken the 'it doesn't exist' approach to the current
climate destruction. This further exacerbates hopelessness. It is not a very
good situation to be in.

------
kradroy
To any teens out there reading this:

It's okay to be a failure or a loser. Don't listen to your parents', teachers'
or peers' bullshit. Live the life that makes you happy.

~~~
faissaloo
No this isn't it at all, things are real bad right now, we need to take charge
if we want a future and we should be preparing for the coming storm. Life is
tough but we are tougher.

------
overcast
[https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/66/wr/mm6630a6.htm](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/66/wr/mm6630a6.htm)

Do these charts not coincide exactly with the introduction and pervasiveness
of smart phones and social media? The rates were dropping until 2007 when the
iPhone was introduced, and it only went up from there as more and more social
apps rolled out.

~~~
fwip
There are a lot of things that correlate with other things. For example, the
financial crisis started in 2007 too.

~~~
overcast
Why would adolescents care about the financial crisis?

~~~
fwip
A) They might be directly affected. Maybe their family lost their house. B)
Kids (and young adults) aren't stupid. They know they're not gonna be kids
forever - and when the world is suddenly starting to suck more than you were
told it would, it's normal to get kinda bummed about that.

------
gardncl
I attempted suicide at fifteen years old (~2009)--three schools, two
countries, and dad had lost his job twice in just three years. I'd say for me
it was entirely based on social isolation and lack of self worth. I hadn't
been able to participate in any sports teams or academics like I wanted since
I started over twice back-to-back (in different countries, even). Very
hopeless time for me and didn't feel like our family was ever going to get out
of that situation.

Computers did not help me because I spent long hours on them in my room alone
and if I didn't have them I likely would have found some group at school to
fit in with.

------
everdrive
I was surprised to learn the suicide rates were so much higher before WWII. I
suppose that's not too shocking given the events of the time, however I never
see todays suicide rates noted in that context.

~~~
biophysboy
Wait, were they low during WWII? Or did they drop after?

~~~
DanBC
The highest risk group - men aged between 18 to 41 - were conscripted.

It's likely that counting of deaths was disrupted by the war, and it was
already inconsistent because of the criminality of suicide and the desire of
coroners to "protect" the relatives from a highly stigmatising suicide
verdict.

------
DanBC
The Lancet has some nice investigation around what might be causing increases
in deaths by suicide in the UK in this age group:
[https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736\(19\)31102-X/fulltext)

The rate of death has increased in this agre group on both sides of the
Atlantic.

------
SomeOldThrow
In that time, the US has waged the longest war in our history, average college
debt has only increased, easily accessible good paying jobs have continued to
vanish, health care costs have continued to skyrocket, the minimum wage has
stayed pitifully low, and real estate investment firms are gobbling up housing
in the places that do have jobs.

~~~
yters
I don't see a rush of people leaving the US for greener pastures...

~~~
hestipod
Because it's not as simple as you think to do that. I'd have left permanently
long ago. I have lived abroad a few times but could never get legitimized
because of my wrecked health and life collapsing interrupting the process each
time. You cannot just go swap your passport and be done with it. I'd have
signed up for that program in a snap. My quality of life was measurably better
in Europe. I hate that every time this topic comes up the nationalistic egos
come out. You can like America and think it's amazing without trying to argue
down anyone who does not. It's not a threat to your identity if someone
criticizes this country or doesn't find it the "greatest in the world".

~~~
yters
Not trying to be nationalist. Just it seems to be a bit odd for people to say
life in the US is atrocious, so much they'd end their lives, yet do not seem
willing to take the somewhat less drastic option of moving to another country.

~~~
hestipod
My sincere apologies if I ascribed intent to you that wasn't there. Your
comment is the sort of thing nationalistic egoists say all the time and I am
self admittedly extremely sensitive to this because of how much the topic has
affected my life.

The confusion many have comes from not understanding how complicated it is to
immigrate even in the best conditions. It's the same sort of idea people in
the US use against immigrants here claiming "they can just do it legally". You
cannot just "move" to another country because you want to. There are legal,
financial, situational requirements that must be met and it's not something
just anyone can up and do. Quite often those who want to move to other
countries the most due to ideological or quality of life reasons are the least
able to legally as a result of their experiences in their home nations. I lost
my health and financial security due to for-profit healthcare. Then the
adversarial and broken social security system denied me help. There is no
social safety net here and opportunity to rebuild once you are crushed. So
with that in mind I'd LOVE to immigrate but cannot meet the requirements
because of what was taken from me. I have tried and worsening conditions as a
result of the above derailed the process. You have no protection until you are
legitimized and/or attain citizenship. To add insult to injury did you know
that the USA is the only country that CHARGES a fee to give up your
citizenship? It was nearly $3000 last time I checked and increases based on
assets. Also one of the only that taxes it's citizens' income earned abroad.
I'd happily exit this place and never look back were it an option.

~~~
yters
Whoa, did not realize it cost so much to renounce citizenship!

Definitely not representative of the Lockian free association of commonwealths
that US was founded on!

------
rolltiide
I'm starting to think that copy and pasting a suicide prevention phone number
doesn't address the underlying issue

------
bluedino
Are they counting drug overdoses as suicides?

~~~
DanBC
Probably not.

Page 21 - [https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/self-directed-
vio...](https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/self-directed-
violence-a.pdf)

There are a huge number of drug-related deaths in the US, so if these were
counted we'd expect to see huge rises in all ages.

------
citilife
This is paywalled, so there's very little information -- anyone have a link?

Most of these comments don't appear to have read anything, just discussing....

------
simonebrunozzi
TL;DR: +30% increase in suicides in the United States from 2000 to 2016, with
rates increasing in all age groups.

------
qwsxyh
I envy those who are able to bring themselves to escape from this hell world.

~~~
yters
One thing to consider is that life circumstances that make us stressed and
feel suicidal are transitory, but suicide is permanent. I felt pretty bad when
younger, but I am fine now. It would have sucked if I'd killed myself back
then.

~~~
hestipod
>One thing to consider is that life circumstances that make us stressed and
feel suicidal are transitory, but suicide is permanent

Mine haven't been transitory. If anything they get worse. Sure it's sensible
for a kid to see if they can get out into life and improve their
circumstances, or someone in some acute situation like losing a loved one etc
to navigate the situation, but the "it gets better" and "permanent solution to
a temporary problem" tropes are fallacies beyond a select few groups.

~~~
yters
Well, one counter point is the religious one. If one holds onto hope until the
natural end of life, then they are guaranteed a great final situation in
heaven that will never get worse. Conversely, despair and suicide are often
considered the sure way to enter hell. In this hypothetical scenario, the
tropes of "it gets better" and "permanent solution to a temporary problem" are
literally true, regardless of how difficult a person's life is.

~~~
hestipod
I didn't downvote you and don't like how that tool is used as a "disagree"
button. However, you are describing the well known "Pascal's Wager" and it
doesn't do it for me. IF, and I don't think it likely, there is a god who
would punish someone for not being able to endure suffering, and who has
created a place like "hell" then we are all screwed anyway because that's a
horrible and cruel thing for anyone to do, let alone a creator. It all sounds
like a very human construct to me anyway since so many humans do love
inflicting punishment to feel some sense of control and justice.

~~~
yters
There are a lot of qualifications around the scenario I wrote. For example, in
Catholicism, for something to be a mortal sin a person needs to have at least
performed the action voluntarily and with full knowledge of its gravity. So,
there are caveats that could potentially make suicide not punishable by hell.
However, going to hell is a possibility that we would probably all want to do
our best to avoid, although it should not be our only or even primary
motivation.

Additionally, the concept of hell is surprisingly prevalent across many
religions and philosophies. It is not just in the Christian New Testament.
Plato describes something like hell in the dialogue Republic, for those who
have repeatedly chosen their passions over their reason. There is a similar
concept in Buddhism. The idea is that hell is not a place people get thrown
arbitrarily for actions beyond their control, but it is essentially a place
they put themselves through their repeated, knowledgeable and voluntary
choices.

All that being said, thinking about the possibility of hell I believe was
helpful at least to make me reconsider whether things in my life were really
all that bad, all things considered. Trying my best to imagine endless torment
(tough to do, try it!) is at the very least sobering and a bit of a wakeup
call.

------
m23khan
would be awesome to overlap the data about suicide rates with levels of
physical activity and social media involvement among the concerned age group
during 2000-2017.

Any type/form of exercising act as the detox for the mind's negative energy.
Not saying this is the magic pill (I understand, depression is a real thing
and needs to be treated) but I am sure exercising can help in some cases.

Similarly, we are all too familiar with the negative impacts of social media.

------
yters
I wonder if there is a correlation between the increase in suicide and
decrease in religiosity.

I'd imagine suicide is a much tougher sell if someone believes in an eternal
hell for suicides, and an eternal heaven for those who hold onto hope.

~~~
sampleinajar
It seems to go even deeper than that. Though there are likely other factors
missing from this broad observation.
[https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/03/study-
of-...](https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/03/study-of-the-day-
protestants-may-be-more-suicidal-than-catholics/254547/)

~~~
yters
I'd say that's consistent with my claim. While the official Catholic teaching
is suicide is a mortal sin and deserves hell, Protestantism has no official
teaching on the matter. Plus, numerous Protestants believe they cannot lose
their salvation regardless of what they do, in which case suicide is a quick
ticket to heaven.

