
Amazon Vehicles - kjhughes
https://www.amazon.com/b?node=10677469011
======
simonsarris
Before you laugh that you'd never use this to buy a car, it may be worth
taking the time to find your make/model and add it to your "Garage" on amazon.
Amazon will then try to confirm or not if the cabin air filter you are about
to buy is a correct fit for your car. Amazon tries to do the same thing with
camera gear.

At least, that's the theory. In practice you still need to do 100% of the due
diligence or you'll end up with spark plug wires that are for the _non-
California version_ of the engine of your girlfriend's 2004 Outback, and then
you have to build an awkward bracket over the motor because you're too
stubborn to return them...

~~~
chaostheory
> Before you laugh that you'd never use this to buy a car, it may be worth
> taking the time to find your make/model and add it to your "Garage" on
> amazon. Amazon will then try to confirm or not if the cabin air filter you
> are about to buy is a correct fit for your car. Amazon tries to do the same
> thing with camera gear.

If that's the case, why didn't Amazon include older model cars? I know the
Chevy Volt has models starting from 2012 or 2011, yet only 2016 and 2017
models are shown

UPDATE: I was wrong. The different models do show up if you search for it, but
for some reason I did not see it while browsing.

I just wish that Amazon could start selling cars directly.

~~~
ceejayoz
> If that's the case, why didn't Amazon include older model cars?

Given that I can add an 1896 Duryea
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duryea_Motor_Wagon_Company](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duryea_Motor_Wagon_Company))
to my garage, I think it's safe to say they include older model cars.

------
ThePhysicist
What's really interesting about this business model is not the fact that you
can buy a car online, it's the price transparency that you create with this:
Car dealers often have 10-20 % margin on a car sale, and they make most of
their money by providing services to you after you bought the car, so they are
usually able to give you some big discounts. Also, as they usually receive a
bonus by the car maker for selling a given number of cars, they have a strong
incentive to sell more. The money that they make for themselves depends
therefore on the margin that they can achieve, which in turn depends on the
customer's knowledge of the "fair" price. Having all the transaction prices
out in the open would therefore be quite a nightmare for most of them, as it
will allow customers to push the price down quite a bit. Especially for small
dealerships (that have higher fixed cost in comparison to their sales and
receive less bonus as they sell fewer cars than big dealers) this could be
highly problematic, while it could be beneficial for the larger dealerships.
Truecar has been doing this model for a while, and I guess Amazon finally
wanted to have a share of this market too (and the data associated with it).

On the technical side it looks like they're using the JATO database for their
search/configuration tool ([http://www.jato.com/](http://www.jato.com/)). A
few years ago I also implemented a car configuration website/app for a German
startup (which doesn't exist anymore) using this data. The most challenging
aspect was the huge amount of possible configurations/options that exist for
some models (especially BMW and Mercedes), which would also have very complex
inter-dependencies (e.g. choosing package A + B means you can't choose package
C except if you also choose D). To resolve this I had to write a dynamic
constraint solver: Finally some abstract computer science that was usable in
practice :D

As far as I understand, in the US there are usually less options to choose
from, which makes extensive configurators unnecessary. Still, it was an
interesting challenge.

~~~
driverdan
You should never pay more than invoice for a new car. For that matter you
should never buy a new car, it doesn't make economic sense.

~~~
UnoriginalGuy
> it doesn't make economic sense

People repeat this a lot, but it isn't that cut and dry.

People often ONLY include the direct cost of the two vehicles. They don't
include the massively discounted loans on new vehicles (e.g. 0% APR), the
warranties (e.g. 3-5 years bumper to bumper), sometimes better MPG (newer
model, etc), cheaper insurance, skipping state inspection for the first three-
five years, new tires & other consumables, et al.

Obviously you have to look at specific vehicles to know for sure; but when I
last looked at exactly this (recently used Vs. new) without the externalities
it was approx $2-3K cheaper (talking CarMax, non-negotiable pricing) but after
factoring in all the things listed above it was damn close (within $500-800).

And as you go more used are you really getting a deal or just exchanging
miles/wear&tear for cash? The asset also has depreciated in value by then.

Just to be clear, I am simply saying you have to look at each vehicle one by
one, a lot of models/manufacturers depreciate at varying speeds (e.g. a Kia
depreciates a lot faster than a used Toyota or Honda).

~~~
pdwetz
Cheaper insurance? I don't follow the logic for that one. If you have an older
car you don't need full coverage = less out of pocket.

~~~
lmm
I think they're talking about the reduced-price (or even free) insurance you
often get as part of the deal when you buy a new car.

------
hardwaresofton
Yes please.

Anything that will get us closer to direct-to-consumer sales of cars. I'm
ready for car dealerships to be a relic of the past.

~~~
overcast
Seriously. My last car (BMW) from seven years ago, I did entirely through
email. Sent a handful of dealerships their cost sheet with the options I
wanted, until I got the price I was looking for. Few months later when it was
built and shipped from Germany, I drove my old car to the dealership, and
drove off with the new one. Done.

As an aside, I just ordered a mattress site unseen from an online only
company, and it turned out to be one of the best mattresses I've ever slept
in. [https://www.saatva.com/](https://www.saatva.com/) $1000 for the luxury
firm Queen, and that included shipping and taking the old one.

~~~
criddell
I tried to buy a car via email. I picked out four different cars (a Kia
Optima, a Honda Fit, a Toyota Prius, and a Subaru Outback) and emailed all the
dealerships for those cars within a three hour drive. None of them would give
me anything other than MSRP by email. Most of them called my phone within 15
minutes of me sending the email and all they wanted was for me to come in and
talk to them.

I eventually went to the Toyota dealership because although they wouldn't
negotiate via email, they didn't phone me either. When I told that to the
salesman, he said that he could get in trouble for that because he was
supposed to call.

Like every other car buying experience I've had, buying the Toyota sucked.
They want to know what payment I want and all I want them to tell me is the
out-the-door price. We would go back and forth and eventually they would bring
some paperwork with an offer and they had accidentally changed the term from
48 to 60 months. Whoops! I think it ended up taking close to 3 hours to come
to an agreement.

To this day, I'm still getting emails and phone calls from some of the dealers
I initially contacted and there seems to be no way to make it stop. I would
happily pay a small premium to buy from Amazon or direct if I could avoid
giving my details to a local dealer.

That reminds me, I'm always getting junk mail and phone calls from scammers
trying to sell me some aftermarket warranty. How did they get my name, phone,
address, and car information? Is that a public record? The dealer swears they
don't sell or share their customer lists.

~~~
massysett
I bought a Honda Accord and many dealers would not quote by email at all. The
remaining dealers quoted a price that did not include a $1000 package of
addons that were worth much less (door guards, nitrogen tires, wheel locks,
etc.) Every Honda dealer I have seen in this region puts these add-ons on each
and every car.

People talk as though the "get quotes by email" thing makes buying a car
painless but the simple fact is that it's still a minefield.

My experience with Honda dealers (sales and service) has been so awful that I
doubt I will buy another Honda, even though I generally like the car.

~~~
criddell
I noticed that the window tinting on my car isn't factory tint (some bubbles
have started). The Toyota dealer orders cars for the lot with no tinting then
they add it themselves. I'm guessing this makes them more money.

The Kia dealer I talked didn't have a car with the upholstery I was interested
in and I found out later that the quote they gave me included a charge for
taking the car to a local guy and getting the seats re-upholstered.

My wife bought an Acura and so far that dealership seems very good. If they
keep treating us right, that's where I'll buy my next car.

------
ejcx
I think it would be great to buy a car from Amazon. The WYSISYG pricing is
something missing from car buying. Negotiating a car price can be a lot of fun
if you're a good negotiator, but people who aren't might love this.

It also gives you a tool for negotiating if you DO plan to take the offer in
to a local dealership.

~~~
__derek__
Oops. Beaten to the punch.

\---

In the used-car market, this is what CarMax does.[1]

[1]: [https://www.carmax.com/car-buying-process/why-
carmax](https://www.carmax.com/car-buying-process/why-carmax)

~~~
lfowles
Forgot to note that it was only for the used-car market, but would also be
great for the new car market.

------
htedatsu
This will be a... clarifying moment for eBay. I make my living on eBay and
gross about 10x the average USA wage. Used stuff is involved. eBay once loveed
people who bought and sold used stuff. They are one of the biggest used car
venues in the world. They want to sell new stuff and become Amazon. Now Amazon
is beating eBay on its own turf. Maybe eBay will have to remember their roots
and start taking care of both its sellers and its end users in the used stuff
sector.

~~~
vecinu
You make about $300k/yr by selling used items on eBay? Consistently?

~~~
htedatsu
More than that ($500k) for 9 years. Sorry, will not reveal niche. Douche move,
I know

~~~
hueving
Sorry, but an unverifiable income brag is effectively made up from the
perspective of readers. "I just click ads all day and make $5k a week" is
basically the same thing.

~~~
gambiting
My dad was making fantastic money on ebay selling used items, but that was
only because he had a cheap source of them - we have a company that sells
second hand clothing, but the thing is, when you buy a truckload of second
hand clothes, it comes with all sorts of crap that people give away to
charities - watches, jewelery, shoes, toys, handbags, electronics, board
games, books, etc etc etc. So we bought it for say(not a real value) $1/kg,
but then my dad would put all of it on ebay. Thousands and thousands of items
per month. Since we were buying per weight but selling individually, the
profit on it was huge, and you wouldn't believe what sort of nonsense people
would buy - old broken watch from a brand no one ever heard about for $5?
Sold!

~~~
hueving
:)

I have bought and old broken alarm clock off of eBay for parts to repair one
with sentimental value to my father. So I can definitely see the watch thing.

------
deegles
Where's the one-click button? :)

Seriously though, if I were in the market for buying a car I would love to use
Amazon. I wonder what the restrictions are for them to register as a
dealership in each state...

~~~
nhumrich
People seem to be missing the point. You can't actually buy cars on amazon (at
least not yet) its just a shopping tool where it lists details, reviews, and
msrp

~~~
adventured
People aren't missing the point. The parent comment directly recognized that
you can't buy the vehicle from Amazon.

------
rudedogg
Has anyone used Costco to buy a new vehicle? Their program isn't direct or
anything, but you're supposed to get better prices than working with a
dealership directly.

I've been curious how much below invoice they are. The closest one is 4 hours
away from me, so I'm not a member (and can't see prices).

~~~
vvanders
We weren't overly impressed. Costco price was ~$2k above what we ended up
negotiating separately.

~~~
rblatz
Did you bring your own financing, did you let the dealer find you the best
deal? A lot of dealers bump the APR on your loan and get the majority of that
higher APR back from the lender as a finders fee.

------
jflowers45
here's some context: [https://www.engadget.com/2016/08/25/amazon-vehicles-
announce...](https://www.engadget.com/2016/08/25/amazon-vehicles-announced/)

------
paulrosenzweig
I wonder if once Tesla fights back all the local monopoly regulation around
dealerships, this will naturally transition to an online car dealership.
They'll have to figure out test drives though.

~~~
swang
easy. just crowdsource the test drives.

~~~
libria
Car owners volunteer their cars for test drives and get a kickback if the
customer purchases that model? Essentially crowd sourced micro-commissions,
that's brilliant.

~~~
BinaryIdiot
I dunno have you seen the average person take a car for a test drive? Half the
times they don't really want to buy it and just want to play with it. I don't
know that I would want tens or hundreds of people in my [figurative] Tesla,
possibly beating it up only for a chance at some sort of small kickback.

Then again I didn't think Uber could work and now I take them all the time so
who knows!

~~~
Johnny555
The kickback has to be large enough to make it worthwhile. You might not do it
for $100, but maybe for $1000?

~~~
BinaryIdiot
Maybe? Depends on what the ratio shakes out to be. If I have to let 10 people
drive my car then maybe. 20? Probably not worth my time. This will also raise
insurance rates as you have to be covered for other drivers on your vehicle.

------
GBond
Serious question. What exactly is new here? I've used the My Garage to buy
part from amzn before. Did they add a new homepage for My Garage? Some of the
comments are suggesting this is a one-click direct car shopping but doesn't
seem to be. Just wondering if I missed something.

------
dchuk
How do they already have so many reviews and content for this? Private Beta?
Pulled from other sources?

~~~
tekklloneer
I viewed some of the reviews. They appear to be spammers or testers. For
example,

Five Stars

By wangchengxuan on July 21, 2016

lalala

~~~
superbatfish
The reviews for the car I looked at (Honda Fit 2008) all looked legit.

------
webwanderings
I was just wondering yesterday, if there is a service out there, which would
let me see the type and model of cars which are popular, and most-bought? I
assume there must be such a dataset available somewhere through government
sources? Or perhaps not. Such a data could be a valuable service based on
crowd's wisdom. Amazon here seems to provide public comments, which is
generally available via Google.

~~~
tdicola
I doubt the government has any data, there's no need or desire for dealers to
send them info on their sales. Look at things like Consumer Reports who go out
and survey large audiences of everyday people to see what they purchased, how
much they paid, how much they like the car, etc.

~~~
kalleboo
Doesn't the licence plate database include the make and model?

------
qntty
How do I buy one? I don't see an "add to cart" button anywhere.

~~~
jamiesonbecker
Via the aptly named Amazon Dash buttons* or by saying "Alexa... I wish I had a
red Ferrari."

* keep away from pets and small children

~~~
CocaKoala
I'm imagining somebody saying "Alexa..." and then playing Skee Lo "I Wish" and
getting just a multitude of things shipped to their home.

------
mattiemass
"like hell Tesla is going to be the only one selling cars online"

~~~
bonestamp2
Not sure how they would pull off new vehicles though. I'm pretty sure existing
dealers would take the manufacturers to court if they made amazon a dealer who
could sell cars in their exclusivity region. Tesla on the other hand is the
manufacturer so they can do it (where legal).

------
MasterYoda
I was hoping for Volvo Amazon vehicles :)

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo_Amazon](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo_Amazon)

------
santiagobasulto
There'll be a lot of people saying "I'd never buy a car on Amazon"...

The same people that said "I'd never buy a book on the Internet" back in 2000.

------
Loic
In Germany you have a very nice service if you want price transparency before
buying a car: [http://www.meinauto.de/](http://www.meinauto.de/)

Basically, car dealers register their offer on the portal and you can _shop_
without knowing about the dealer. Just at the end, you sign a _middle man_
agreement and the website is forwarding your request to the car dealer.

At the end, you need to travel maybe 300km to get your car, but you get it
from a normal dealer with standard guarantees. If you still want to buy at
your _home_ car dealer, this gives you a good idea of the discount you could
try to negotiate.

------
niciliketo
For high value items like vehicles reverse auctions can work, as long as you
can specify what you want and are not too emotionally attached to the model
that you want [http://blog.marketdojo.com/2016/03/buying-a-car-via-
auction....](http://blog.marketdojo.com/2016/03/buying-a-car-via-
auction.html?m=1)

------
jsight
Didn't they actually have a car sales service at one time? It seems like I
remember them doing something with this about 15 years ago.

~~~
Normal_gaussian
Kind of. They partnered with Nissan to deliver a car to somebody in a huge
box; it was never meant as a continual or long term thing just a marketing
stunt.

Here is a truly horrid video about it:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yISx15OYogU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yISx15OYogU)

------
erickhill
Now, if they delivered one of these via Prime ...

~~~
ipsi
In the not-too-distant future: "Amazon now largest car dealer in the US, and
fleets of Amazonian drones flying cars across the country are now a common
sight. Fatalities from dropped cars are down 25% on the previous quarter. More
news at 11".

~~~
erickhill
Or, self-driving cars deliver themselves, perhaps.

------
daljeetv
Soon we'll rent cars, like we rent books. :)

~~~
chadgeidel
Many folks do just that. It's called "leasing". ;-)

~~~
amorphid
Why lock yourself into a lease? I can rent a private car w/ chauffeur right
from my phone.

------
grecy
Does anyone know if they'll do Amazon Associates on a car sales? 5% of the
purchase price would be very nice indeed.

------
CodeSheikh
Boy, good thing Amazon does not need to ship them with USPS. "Pime Drivers"
will drive them to your door steps.

------
camtarn
Hah! When I worked at Amazon, we occasionally used to joke that the only thing
you couldn't buy in the Automotive and Industrial department was actual cars.
That discrepancy has now been corrected :)

[edit] Aw. No, it hasn't: this is just a way to "See specs, read reviews, and
ask owners" about vehicles. Pity.

------
soheil
You can't actually buy a car, but could this be a prelude to a near future
when you can?

------
ameliaquining
Was anyone else expecting this to be an announcement of an Amazon self-driving
car project?

------
rm_-rf_slash
I wonder how long it will take until you can buy a house on Amazon.

~~~
massysett
Redfin would do this first.

Since they have a fair number of listings, I'm waiting for them to offer
something where the buyer gets a substantial discount for buying it directly
from the Redfin agent, without using a buyer's agent. Next step would be to
sell listings exclusively through Redfin and not through the MLS, though this
would be riskier.

~~~
rb808
I think this was the original business plan of Zillow & Trulia - they wanted
people to list without the help of agents. It never really became successful
enough so they sold out.

I don't understand how agents can charge 6% in America when they charge 1 or
1.5% in the UK.

~~~
prplhaz4
It is rare to see a buyers agent earning their 3% in the US. The amount of
information and tools available to consumers is nearly in parity with agents.
The more hands-on you are with the process, the less value the agents bring.
They can still provide value in competitive markets or through complex deals,
but your inspector and lawyer are the ones doing the real work.

------
bdrool
Oh awesome, I can't wait to buy a knock off truck from "Ford-Motors" that has
a handful of fake 5-star reviews and doesn't meet safety standards. Thanks,
Amazon!

(See here for explanation:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11939829](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11939829))

~~~
diogenescynic
The last few things I've bought from Amazon were all knockoffs--Hanes socks
that wore out and the fabric pilled up immediately and gave me blisters,
boxers, sunglasses, etc. Pretty disappointing. Now I try to avoid any Prime
products fulfilled by third parties, but I'm not sure if buying directly from
Amazon mitigates the risk.

------
kyyd
So many 5 star reviews.

~~~
shogun21
I would think if you're dropping tens of thousands of dollars for a product,
you'd be satisfied with it or convince yourself you're satisfied.

------
bluedino
I don't really get what this is - if I want to find parts for my car, I can
just type something like '2012 Honda Accord Wipers'

I already have my car in my 'garage', they've had that functionality for
years.

------
robbiemitchell
It will surprise many that this is already a thing. e.g., vroom.com

~~~
grahamburger
Is there something like this for buying new cars online? I thought I something
a while back about a company like this working directly with dealerships
selling new cars but I can't find it now.

I'm planning on buying an EV car this year for the tax benefits, but I'm
dreading the dealership.

~~~
jmstickney
Carvana ?

~~~
grahamburger
Maybe that was it. Looks like they only do used as well, but I might have been
mis-remembering about new cars being available.

------
mikeevans
Waiting for the time that I can referral link a car purchase.

------
madengr
I don't believe those ratings. I was looking at Ram truck ratings the other
day from (from an unbiased site) and they were 1.5/5.

~~~
ceejayoz
What's the "unbiased site"?

~~~
madengr
[https://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/dodge_ram.html](https://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/dodge_ram.html)

------
codecamper
I couldn't find any Trabants for sale. Lame.

------
grandalf
Ever since CarWoo bit the dust I've been hoping for some actual innovation in
this space. Let's hope this is it!

~~~
rblatz
CarWoo wasn't exactly innovative. It was another middleman between you and the
dealers that sold the cars. They had to be careful to not be too aggressive or
they would lose their dealer partners. There are already multiple innovative
companies out there acting as entirely online direct to consumer vehicle
dealers. Just google buy a car online.

------
Overtonwindow
I just added two Bentley's and a Porsche to my online garage, since I'll never
have these in my real garage.

------
bowmessage
no motorcycles? :(

~~~
itajaja
Same question. Hopefully they are going to extend it soon, I see no reason why
bikes are left out

------
Negative1
Getting through "The Everything Store" right now, and, yep. Wow.

------
paxunix
A number of people have commented about the quality (or its lack) of Amazon's
"this fits/doesn't fit your car" data. Let me explain a little about how that
works:

In North America, this fitment data conforms to a popular (but not the only)
schema called ACES (Aftermarket Catalog Exchange Standard). It's a long and
pretty well-defined XML schema that specifies things like year, make, model,
and all kinds of attributes like engine configuration, fuel type, wheelbase,
etc., as well as brand name, part number, quantity, and so on. Fitment data
providers create an XML document according to this schema and populate it
based on the products they say fit particular vehicles.

For example, say you are the manufacturer of a FRAM oil filter (FRAM is a
common aftermarket filter brand in the US). It has a part number A123. You
know it fits the 2000-2010 Honda Accord with engine XYZ. You add to your
fitment XML document an entry for this filter that specifies brand=FRAM,
partnumber=A123, parttype=oil filter, years=2000-2010, make=Honda,
model=Accord, engine=XYZ. Now, you (or some 3rd party you designate that
specializes in turning your catalog of products into fitment data), sends this
fitment document on to companies that care about fitment information because
they are selling your FRAM oil filter and want to be sure their customers can
tell if it will fit their car or not (Amazon, Ebay, Rock Auto, etc.).

They take that fitment data and join it against their product database and out
pops the yes/no fitment data you see on their website.

Now scale it up: there is no requirement that only one company produce these
fitment records. Anyone else can produce a fitment record that says all the
above, but for the 2000-2010 Honda Civic. Maybe that's a mistake, but as a
receiver of the fitment data, Amazon or Ebay can't know it's a mistake--they
can only presume the fitment data they are given is valid.

Now, complicate it further by adding the human element: e.g. some fitment data
providers have fitment data in Excel spreadsheets. Some poor human fat-
fingered that data from the spreadsheet into XML and maybe they left off the
leading 0 on all the part numbers (because that's Excel's default for number
cells). Oops. Now none of those fitment records will match to any parts in the
database of the companies that sell them. Or they're entering this data off a
piece of paper and can't tell if that's a 0 (zero) or an O (oh). Oops.

Or, worse: the fitment provider gets the wrong vehicle ID (because the schema
is all based on IDs, not human-readable names) and submits fitment data that
says that FRAM filter fits a 2000-2010 Tesla Model S. Well, that's extremely
unlikely, but the receiver of the fitment data is a machine and the machine
doesn't know that is completely ridiculous.

Or equally bad: the fitment provider says it fits a 2000-2010 Honda Accord,
but doesn't specify the engine type at all. Now, Amazon's machines see that
and think "the customer only needs to tell me their year, make, and model". A
smart human knows it also needs the engine configuration, but the machine
can't easily know that because none of its data specifies an engine
configuration is needed for fitment. So Amazon sends out the filter because
its data says "it fits!" and the customer is unhappy.

So, in the end, the customer is displeased because Amazon shipped them an oil
filter that can't possibly fit their car, even though it told them it would
because they can only go on what the data tells them.

A closely related problem is that sometimes a seller will have a product that
they know should require fitment data (like an oil filter), but there has been
no fitment data submitted for it. In that case, the company can neither say it
fits, nor it doesn't fit--it doesn't have enough data to make the
determination. This is common as the new model-years start to hit the
marketplace: the car exists; you can buy it; you can buy parts for it;
however, the aftermarket fitment data hasn't caught up with the car's
attributes yet. It also happens when Amazon has fitment data for some models
but not for others, even if the part will fit those other models--without data
saying so, there's no way to say "yes that will fit your new 2017".

To complicate it even further, if you're talking about this stuff outside of
North America, there are other schemas and data providers with very little
overlap of the NA offerings. This is visible in the very different fitment
experience you see in most EU countries on Amazon (for example, try
[https://www.amazon.co.uk/auto](https://www.amazon.co.uk/auto) and select a
car).

The takeaway? Unhappy customers result when you have complex data quality
problems, and sometimes it's no fault of the implementation at all.

------
MicroBerto
Will the Associates program pay commissions for this??? If so.....

------
praveenster
Where does this leave the likes of Edmunds, AutoTrader etc.?

------
mikehines
Self-driving car market research under the cover?

------
briansugar
checkout [http://roadster.com](http://roadster.com)

------
known
Can we buy car engines?

------
tapeman
Psh, no Prime delivery?

------
ruffrey
Where are the Teslas?

------
_audakel
I would like an Amazon Prime Air to deliver my new car plz.

------
avisser
Killer URL. /s Would it kill them to add a route?

------
partycoder
They need VR

------
bedros
where's the lease offer?

------
codecamper
So if I buy the car with my amazon card, I get 3% back? woot!

