
Why I’m making my family German (2017) - Tomte
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/jun/03/why-im-making-my-family-german
======
Tomte
Article 116 Grundgesetz, paragraph 2:

"Former German citizens who between 30 January 1933 and 8 May 1945 were
deprived of their citizenship on political, racial or religious grounds, and
their descendants, shall on application have their citizenship restored. They
shall be deemed never to have been deprived of their citizenship if they have
established their domicile in Germany after 8 May 1945 and have not expressed
a contrary intention."

So, if you were denaturalized, you aren't automatically a German citizen
again, because that would obviously be insulting to those who were persecuted,
fled Germany, and never wanted to have anything to do with Germany ever again.

If you apply for citizenship, it will be granted. If you live in Germany
again, the reasoning above doesn't hold anymore, and you are spared the
formality of a full application for citizenship.

~~~
tim333
I was considering doing one of those but there's quite a lot of paperwork and
it looks quite likely us Brits will keep our EU citizenships.

~~~
sonnyblarney
I don't think it's very likely. Rather, it's more likely that UK citizens will
have a fair degree of privilege with respect to mobility etc on the Continent
vis-a-vis arbitrary foreigners.

The article is in fact loaded and a little misrepresentative, implying that
somehow UK citizens won't have any rights to reside or work in the UK which is
not fair.

I'm not a citizen of any European country and I've lived and worked in Europe
without a whole lot of trouble.

Obviously, there's nuance to these issues, always lost in the fog of 'word
wars'.

~~~
pjc50
> implying that somehow UK citizens won't have any rights to reside or work in
> the UK which is not fair.

I'm assuming that one of those is a typo? But if you think EU citizens will be
entirely safe and comfortable in the UK after a hypothetical Brexit, you've
not been paying attention to the "hostile environment" and the deportation of
actual Brits in the _Windrush_ fiasco.

~~~
sonnyblarney
"But if you think EU citizens will be entirely safe and comfortable in the UK
after a hypothetical Brexit, you've not been paying attention to the "hostile
environment" and the deportation of actual Brits in the Windrush fiasco."

It's a little populist and inflammatory to suggest that the UK is a 'hostile
environment' for EU citizens.

Literally _millions_ of EU citizens and other naturalized immigrants from EU
countries - and others around the world, live in UK, and they don't 'live in
fear'.

There are obviously many ambiguities, and people caught up in immigration
snafus.

 _Neither of these issues are new_.

As treaties are realigned (and they have been forever and will continue to
evolve), citizenship status will be adjust, but neither the UK or the EU are
going to start mass deportations.

And to indicate an individual getting caught up in the system as evidence of
much is not fair; have you considered the problems right now in Germany,
Poland, Greece, Italy? Just to start the list?

Sadly, even the most modern nations have loopholes in their systems and
outcomes are not always just, but overall, most modern nations have lawful,
well regulated and reasonable policies, for the most part.

~~~
pjc50
"Hostile environment" is literally what the policy is called by its
supporters.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Office_hostile_environmen...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Office_hostile_environment_policy)

The intention was to make the system as unreasonable as possible in order to
reduce overall immigration numbers.

> have you considered the problems right now in Germany, Poland, Greece,
> Italy?

Which problems are you referring to?

------
uasm
> "My children will now always have the right to study, work, live and love
> abroad. That can’t be taken away from them. I am incredibly proud I have
> given that to them. And now that I have the personal, individual right to do
> the same – a right that no politician can take away from me – I find my
> horizons widening too."

I share her happiness and enthusiasm, and commend her for acting on her
beliefs. But this quote from the very end of the article is what many Brits
believed to be the truth, up until Brexit. One important lesson here - nothing
is forever. A wave of xenophobia and nationalism is sweeping the world and
separatism is back in fashion. Freedom is under threat.

~~~
sparkling
I know this is hard to belive for some people but you don't need to be a
xenophobe/nastionalist to have voted for "leave". The insults really don't
help anyone.

~~~
ollie87
Not all the people who voted leave are xenophobe/nationalist/racist, but all
the xenophobes/nationalists/racists voted to leave.

~~~
RcouF1uZ4gsC
Not all people who voted remain want to exploit immigrants to keep wages down.
But all people who want to exploit immigrants to keep wages down voted for
remain.

~~~
rvieira
I think that someone wishing to exploit immigrants and keeping wages down
would actually vote for Brexit.

With Brexit, a "race to the bottom" and bonfire of EU work regulations is more
likely.

~~~
ollie87
Agreed, above commenter is a bloody loon.

------
lqet
As a descendant of Danube Swabians who re-immigrated to their original village
after 6 generations in Serbia, I can only say: Willkommen zurück!

However:

> We are no longer prisoners of a country whose politicians do not and will
> not, likely for a generation or more, reflect me in any shape or form.

Given her family's experience with Germany, I find it heartbreakingly naive
that she obviously thinks that this will not be the case here, not now and not
in 25 or 50 or 75 years.

~~~
falsedan
The 'prisoners' part refers to how citizens are captive to their government,
and if their government does something they truly do not agree with, they have
no recourse and must go along with the law of the land.

With multiple citizenship you at least can emigrate somewhere and, while not
as integrated as native citizens, at least will never be ejected as unwanted
immigrants.

~~~
lqet
I understood that part. However, there is no guarantee that Germany will still
accept dual citizenship in 50 years. There is no guarantee that Germany will
not (again) become a dictatorship where people are interned in camps if the
ruling class finds it politically useful. There is no guarantee that Germany
will even allow you to leave the country in 50 years, even if you have dual
citizenship.

This is all seems improbable, of course, even ridiculous. But I don't think
anyone in Germany could've seriously imagined the situation of 1939-45 30
years earlier.

------
YeGoblynQueenne
This article reinforces my suspicion that the British, even the ones who
supported the Remain vote in the referendum, simply have no idea what the EU
is about. For the author, for example, it is a matter of "identity". For the
Remain campaign, the argument was that Brexit would be bad for business and
industry.

The British can just not comprehend the need for a united Europe in the modern
world, where European countries are beset on all sides by many times more
powerful rivals (Russia, China and now even the US is turning against us). To
think that the little nation-states of Europe can survive and prosper on their
own like they did back in the days of Napoleon and Queen Victoria ignores
reality for the warm fuzzy feeling of epic fantasy.

The EU's goal is to promote peace an the well-being of its people (Treaty of
the European Union, article 3, par. 1). The British either ignore this, or, if
they know it, they don't believe it. Therefore, the public conversation about
the EU revolves either around irrelevancies, like bendy bananas and fast-track
airport lanes, or around issues that most people cannot really connnect with,
like the benefits to industry (as if there is anyone left in the UK who
believes that what is good for industry is good for everyone).

No wonder the Leave side carried the referendum vote. Their message was simple
and to the point: "us versus them" (all of them - the EU, those krauts and
frogs and those PIGS countires, Poles, Romanians... everyone). You cannot
argue against nationalistic slogans and battle buses with "Brexit is bad for
business". Nor with "I want my kids to be able to travel to the EU cheaply and
without a visa". A powerful message is needed and it needs to make it clear to
everyone what awaits us if we divide up and withdraw each in our little
borders.

But, nobody has done that for the British- so, it's all identity, bendy
bananas and travel privileges.

~~~
tim333
>To think that the little nation-states of Europe can survive and prosper on
their own... fantasy...

I'm a remainer but I think little nation states that are non EU like
Switzerland or Singapore survive and prosper quite well.

I admit I don't know that much about the EU - I think of it mostly as an admin
for free trade and travel between the countries mostly. Which I quite like.

One of the troubles with the 2016 leave/remain referendum was remain is clear
enough but no one really knew what leave would consist of. When you clarify it
none of the options are very popular for instance the polls on remain/May's
deal are about 60:40 to remain. Even remain/no deal polls about 56-44 towards
remain so to leave politicians will have to force it through against the
wishes of the majority of the people and of their parliament. Which is kind of
a mess.

~~~
rayiner
> I admit I don't know that much about the EU - I think of it mostly as an
> admin for free trade and travel between the countries mostly. Which I quite
> like.

That has not been true since the Lisbon treaty. Now, it’s an EU-wide
government supreme over the EU national governments. In key respects, the EU
is even more powerful compared to the EU national governments than the US
federal government is compared to the US state governments. For example, the
federal government cannot pass laws then force the state governments to
enforce them. The EU can.

If the EU stayed on its pre-Brexit track, all the stuff that renders US
politics intractable would be coming to the EU faster than anyone would think.
You’re already seeing it—for example, with Sweden and Finland having to
strengthen gun control to accommodate the sensibilities of the rest of Europe.

~~~
mnky9800n
The us federal government via Congress can certainly pass laws that supersede
state laws. That's the purpose of the 9th amendment and the commerce Clause in
the us Constitution.

~~~
rayiner
Under the Supremacy Clause, the federal government can pass laws that preempt
state laws. What it cannot do is coerce states into enforcing federal laws.
(That's the whole premise behind sanctuary cities--states cannot be compelled
to enforce federal immigration laws.) The EU can do both--it can pass laws
that override national laws, and it can enforce member states to enforce EU
laws, or to pass national laws to comply with EU directives.

------
mnm1
Living in America, this is the same way I feel about my EU passport. It's more
precious than anything I own or will ever own. Being able to leave the
insanity here is such a lifeline, extremely similar to being able to leave the
insanity in Britain. One can tell these two nations, America and Britain,
share the same roots and they're both going to shit at the same time in
similar ways.

------
peterlk
Around the time that Donald Trump appeared to be a serious contender for the
presidential race, I finished up my German dual citizenship application. When
I was at the consulate, the person that I met with mentioned that they were
absolutely swamped with applications for citizenship and proof of citizenship.

Anecdotally, I know two other people who are working on acquiring their
Italian citizenship, one other who acquired their German (dual) citizenship
(and moved to Europe), and several who are applying for citizenship in non-EU
countries. I don't think the US and Britain (and those who would like to
follow their lead) appreciate the energy and means of the people who they are
pushing out. We all talk about immigration as the onslaught of poor people
(degrading some cherished way of life or needing shelter from persecution
etc.) without seeing the full picture. To be clear, I'm not saying that these
immigrants are unimportant, just that there is a bigger picture. The person at
the consulate said that they had _thousands_ of pending applications for
citizenship documents. This is for one country (Germany).

Friends of friends in the Philippines are not interested in coming to the US
any more. They want to go to Canada. Filipino immigrants run the US health
care system. This relationship is genuinely helpful to the US. US needs more
nurses, the Philippines trains them and sends them (not so good for the
Philippines, but I'm not looking through that lens in this comment). Why cut
off that labor force? Limiting supply (by telling immigrants that they are not
welcome) causes real and direct harm to people who need to be taken care of in
the US.

The damage of xenophobia and nationalism takes longer than one (US) political
term to appear, but the cultural shift is hugely negative for the future. I
believe that there are failure modes in globalization, and we are experiencing
one now, but scrapping the whole idea is an overreaction. If you want to be
part of the solution, find ways to tell people around the world that the US
(or the UK) is better than what its politicians say and do.

