
The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From the CIA - salient
http://www.newsweek.com/day-mandela-was-arrested-little-help-cia-223935
======
moolriaz
Shocked by how misinformed people are about Mandela/Apartheid, or by the
amount of trolling going on here.

Thousands of white people have not died in SA thanks to Mandela. Mandela was
not a 'terrorist'. Apartheid was BAD, and still affects the country
significantly today. Here's some context for you. This all applied pre 1994/2:

I am a non white South African. The only reason I got a good education was
because with the release of Nelson Mandela, my parents were one of few to
study at a previously white only university, and qualify for positions
previously reserved for whites only. They went on to run companies that they
COULD NOT have run during Apartheid, have offices in places they could not
have had before, have clients they could not have before etc. I live in a
neighbourhood my parents could not have lived in prior to 1994, and study at a
university my parents were not allowed to. These were white only areas only,
because they are good.

My father was a lawyer during Apartheid. Black people were only allowed to
represent black people. Almost all of the people he defended in court were put
to death, in many cases before their trials were even heard by courts! Post
apartheid, the death penalty was dropped.

My family had family friends that were white. They were never allowed to mix.
My aunt wanted to marry a white (American) man but was forbidden to. They got
married illegally. She was not entitled to live in the property he owned, as
black people could not legally own property. She came close to being arrested
many times.

Post apartheid my aunt and her white husband were married. She was allowed to
legally own the property after he died.

My birth certificate does not have my parents names on it, due to Apartheid.
Families were not formally recognised. I need to get an amended birth
certificate to prove who my parents are, and I can now do this post apartheid.

My parents were also forcefully removed from their legally owned properties
that were taken from them during Apartheid. Their property was seized by the
government and never returned. My parents could barely even travel out of
South Africa as flying over/travelling other African countries were
restricted. They were even not allowed to enter many countries abroad.

And I'm not even 'Black'. My ethnicity is Indian. I am an Indian South Africa
(of which there are millions). Everyone who wasn't white was counted as
'Black'. This accounts for over 85% of South Africa's population.

It is well known in SA that the US government actively supported Apartheid,
and many people have a poor opinion of the US because of this.

If it wasn't for Nelson Mandela, I probably wouldn't even be able to post
this. My family, and millions others, now live lives they simply could not
have lived before.

Please explain to me how this is the work of a terrorist, or how in any way
the work of the armed wing of the ANC was not justified by the Apartheid
regimes massacre of innocent children and women , and torture of prisoners
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soweto_uprising](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soweto_uprising),
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharpeville_massacre](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharpeville_massacre),
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Biko](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Biko))
and their numerous policies and their effects as explained above.

~~~
pessimizer
Mandela was a terrorist. You're just having cognitive dissonance because you
agree with him (as all right-thinking people should have.)

To the extent that "terrorist" has any meaning, it is when a less powerful
actor attempts to advance an agenda through creating an unmanageable situation
for a more powerful institution by causing an increased sense of risk within
individuals who are part of the support structure of that institution, thereby
making it too expensive for the institution to continue preventing that agenda
from being advanced.

Where conventional war wins by killing enough people on the other side that
they can't stop you from doing what you want, instead terrorism makes people
so expensive (in lost government support from a targeted public, increased
salaries and heightened security, and/or lost inflows of money from targeted
clients and customers) that allowing the terrorist agenda to advance turns out
to be cheaper for the institution being attacked than continuing to fight.

That's what the ANC did.

~~~
moolriaz
That's a bit condescending. Terrorism doesn't have an accepted definition, and
that definitely isn't my definition of terrorism, nor many others. Perhaps
people living in America are more inclined to your definition.

I believe that terrorism is defined by the desire to cause mass fear in the
general populace by intentionally targeting innocent people, to send across
some political message in whichever guise. 9/11 was a terrorist attack.

The Spear of the Nation targeted infrastructure of the Apartheid regime, and
the policies of equality upheld by the ANC and Nelson Mandela were widely
supported by both white and non-white people in South Africa. I do not think
these actions were aimed at provoking mass fear or lobbying an ideal not
commonly accepted in South Africa.

This period is often referred to as a revolution, and successful
revolutionaries are not historically known as 'terrorists'. In the Anglo-Boer
war a similar tactic was employed by the Boers to great effect, but I have
never heard of anyone referring to their actions during this war as acts of
terrorism. They fought against an act of war initiated by the British, the
same way that the ANC fought against acts of violence by the ruling regime,
except the ANC were severely under resourced.

Again, the spear of the nation may have done this. This doesn't make Nelson
Mandela a terrorist. If he armed a bomb, killed someone, held someone hostage
for international attention, I would be far more inclined to accept your
definition, as with others.

Given that even the Iron Lady apologised for calling Mandela a terrorist, I'd
say the commonly accepted belief is that he is and was not a terrorist.

~~~
pessimizer
>Terrorism doesn't have an accepted definition,

Then it's going to be very difficult to make an argument that Mandela was not
a terrorist.

>In the Anglo-Boer war a similar tactic was employed by the Boers to great
effect, but I have never heard of anyone referring to their actions during
this war as acts of terrorism.

The first hit I get for "Boer terrorism" is:
[http://www.angloboerwar.com/books/78-stevens-the-complete-
hi...](http://www.angloboerwar.com/books/78-stevens-the-complete-history-of-
the-war/1714-stevens-chapter-xl-the-boer-terrorism)

(
[https://duckduckgo.com/?t=lm&q=Boer+terrorism](https://duckduckgo.com/?t=lm&q=Boer+terrorism)
)

Edit:

Sorry about going on about this, but I think that saying people are not
terrorists because we agree with them is closely related to saying that people
are terrorists because we don't agree with them. If "terrorism" has a meaning,
the question of whether Mandela was a terrorist should be answered based on
that meaning. If what we really mean to say is that we think Mandela was a
great man who improved the lives of millions, we can just say that instead of
arguing or insulting each other over semantics.

~~~
moolriaz
The connotations associated with terrorism are simply too strong to associate
with Mandela. People will take great offence at this, no matter what pedantic
definition you want to use for it. Regardless, your definition still doesn't
account for the fact that Nelson Mandela did not personally do any of these
things, or intentionally target innocents.

------
jd_free
Coverage of Mandela is a testament to the prevailing powers' ability to
rewrite history. Millions of people think he was put in jail for protesting
apartheid or something else noble. He was actually a terrorist leader - his
group killed thousands of innocents in bombings and other attacks. The
"activism" he's credited with while in prison was mostly arranging more
killings.

Read about a practice his group created while he was in prison:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necklacing](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necklacing)

~~~
mrleinad
This is the same bull __*t that is thrown at Castro, Che Guevara, and many
others. You can 't make a revolution without guns, when the other side has all
the power and lots of guns as well. Almost all independence wars (and I say
almost, because there's this nice dude Gandhi, but I'm not sure it was an
actual war) were fought with weapons, not with flowers and nice thoughts. If
you're from the US you should know better, considering that your Constitution
clearly states (paraphrasing) that you have a right to bear arms, in case the
government tries to take away your freedoms.

~~~
gwern
> This is the same bull*t that is thrown at Castro, Che Guevara, and many
> others.

Bullshit? Should we infer that you think Castro's Cuba was a smashing success
and has totally justified all the bad things he and his followers did?

~~~
tcdent
Care to elaborate on "all of the bad things"? If there's anything to take away
from this discussion on Mandela, it's that there are a lot of
misunderstandings about what actually happened, especially if you are
primarily informed by American media.

~~~
noarchy
"all of the bad things" seem to continue:

 _Cuba remains the only country in Latin America that represses virtually all
forms of political dissent. The government of Raúl Castro continues to enforce
political conformity using short-term detentions, beatings, public acts of
repudiation, travel restrictions, and forced exile. Although the Cuban
government released dozens of political prisoners on the condition that they
leave the country, the government continues to sentence dissidents in closed,
summary trials. The government has also relied increasingly upon arbitrary
arrests and short-term detentions to restrict the basic rights of its critics,
including the right to assemble and move freely._

[http://www.hrw.org/americas/cuba](http://www.hrw.org/americas/cuba)

Another source for info, if you don't like HRW:
[http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/cuba](http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/cuba)

~~~
mrleinad
How about this quote to reply to your post, and we remain on topic as well?

"Freedom is meaningless if people cannot put food in their stomachs, if they
can have no shelter, if illiteracy and disease continue to dog them." \-
Nelson Mandela

I encourage you to read about how illiterate people were before Castro, and
after Castro. Also if there was hunger, if people could afford to go to a
doctor, and how unequal their society was.

~~~
noarchy
I don't want to get drawn into a false dichotomy. The pre-Castro period was no
paradise, I'm fully aware.

~~~
mrleinad
There's no point in critizicing Castro unless you also acknowledge everything
he changed for good, and how the United States in the name of freedom and
democracy wants to undo all that. Once you put everything at the same level,
then you can start analyzing what's actually best for them.

~~~
noarchy
>There's no point in critizicing Castro unless you also acknowledge everything
he changed for good, and how the United States in the name of freedom and
democracy wants to undo all that. Once you put everything at the same level,
then you can start analyzing what's actually best for them.

I've never made a statement about what is "best for them". That is up to them,
or at least it should be. They currently have no opportunity to decide what is
best for themselves, and apparently you think this is a great deal, and we
shouldn't complain about anyone living under authoritarian regimes.

------
CraigJPerry
I only found out today how Nelson Mandella place in Glasgow city centre got
its name.

To piss off SA, the street their embassy was on was renamed while he was still
being held.

There's more the story: [http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-
scotland-22976781](http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-22976781)

~~~
owenmarshall
This is the same reason that there is a Bobby Sands Street in downtown Tehran.

The UK embassy responded by moving their main entrance to a side door on a
different street so they wouldn't be forced to put Bobby Sands on their
letterhead, official documents, etc.

------
trekky1700
I would like to point out that the article, despite it's leading title, states
that there's little evidence to suggest the agent was working for the CIA at
the time. He owned a security company and was hired by a South African
government agency.

Title really should be: "The Day Mandela Was Arrested, With A Little Help From
A Hired Private Security Contractor Who Happened To Have Worked For The CIA In
The Past"

~~~
jokoon
Maybe the CIA should not have worked with those guys in the first place ?

That's one part of capitalism I hate, paying fat checks, and knowing it will
never backfire to you. When you're a government agency, when you hire
somebody, there's espionage/politics involved, don't pretend the CIA is pinky
pony. It's strategic moves from start to end.

I've seen worse headlines.

~~~
Shivetya
This has nothing to do with capitalism and more to do with anything,
colonialism and the Cold War. It was politics as usual, help allies to keep
them.

While it is easy to sit back and judge the past we have to realize that some
actions were seen as prudent at the time. The nation Mandela came up in is far
different from what it is today but so is the world. This by no means excuses
actions of the past, but at the time who would have ever figured the
transformation that took place in him at the time.

~~~
the_af
With this mindset, is it ever possible to judge anything?

"At the time, it made sense to help racists (who happened to be our allies)
imprison and possibly hang a black agitator. We now know it was wrong, but
back then who knew?" Um, ok. So _when_ is it right to denounce those who
helped racist regimes?

~~~
vasilipupkin
I agree with your general point, but at the time U.S. was locked in an
existential struggle with the Soviet Union and essentially was taking all
sorts of actions around the world against many parties sympathetic to
communist causes. Not saying it's an excuse, but it does provide some context

~~~
avenger123
Sorry, this line is getting very very old.

It's extremely tiresome to watch actions being justified because the "big bad"
communists were out there. And what is this about an existential struggle?

The only real struggle between the two nations was who would dominate the rest
of the world. I don't consider this existential. China is doing just fine
without wanting to take over the rest of the world.

It's great revisionist history going on right now with Nelson Mandela's death.
If you don't know the real history, you would think the States was right there
beside Mandela fighting for freedom.

~~~
vasilipupkin
makes me think you didn't live in the Soviet Union. Trust me, it was a very
bad place

------
tokipin
best historical overview on Mandela for those of us who have only heard the
word 'apartheid' but didn't know what it refered to (video):
[http://on.msnbc.com/1cpfpAr](http://on.msnbc.com/1cpfpAr)

------
ismail
Also to get a more accurate reflection, tune in to Radio 702 (Wont be much now
since its 11pm) but you could possibly catch some clips from people who
actually knew him.

[http://www.ourmadiba.com/reflect.html](http://www.ourmadiba.com/reflect.html)

[http://www.702.co.za/index_site.asp](http://www.702.co.za/index_site.asp)

------
bananacurve
Vapid articles like this are up voted on HN on the mistaken idea that this
somehow is bringing America down a notch. Inaccuracies of this story aside,
people that want America to fail would be much better served by actually
building something useful themselves.

------
snrip
F*ck apartheid, but for all I know Mandela pretty much deserved to go to jail.

Big disgrace if the CIA actively sponsored this regime, but the allegations in
the article are just from one source not directly related to the affairs. All
the "Who knows" and "My guess" doesn't make the case any stronger.

~~~
jbooth
Thought experiment:

Some other civilization (let's say the Arabs) comes to America and puts us in
a system analogous to apartheid, where the groups are whites on bottom and
arabs on top.

In that hypothetical, would your opinions be different?

~~~
pstuart
Of course they would. But only then.

~~~
cglee
So you basically lack empathy.

~~~
pstuart
Huh? I've got plenty to spare. I was referring to the parent.

