

Americans Disapprove of Government Surveillance Programs - DamnYuppie
http://www.gallup.com/poll/163043/americans-disapprove-government-surveillance-programs.aspx
This poll is almost the exact opposite of the one Pew Research did, http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.people-press.org&#x2F;2013&#x2F;06&#x2F;10&#x2F;majority-views-nsa-phone-tracking-as-acceptable-anti-terror-tactic&#x2F;.
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jpdoctor
> _There are significant partisan differences in views of the government 's
> program to obtain call logs and Internet communication. Democrats are more
> likely to approve, by 49% to 40%. Independents (34% vs. 56%) and Republicans
> (32% to 63%) are much more likely to disapprove than approve._

It's too bad they didn't bother to separate "technologically clueless" from
the "technologically clueful", which would probably speak volumes.

~~~
MichaelApproved
I'm curious what HN users would ask as a qualifier to being technologically
knowledgeable. What would the ideal question for that be?

~~~
youngerdryas
Can the internet fit in a small box?

~~~
charonn0
No, but it will fit in an oil tanker[1]

[1]: [http://what-if.xkcd.com/23/](http://what-if.xkcd.com/23/) (second from
the last answer)

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gmisra
And yet, this Pew Research poll from two days ago:

> _" Overall, 56 percent of Americans consider the NSA’s accessing of
> telephone call records of millions of Americans through secret court orders
> “acceptable,” while 41 percent call the practice “unacceptable.”"_ [1]

The Pew question only specifies phone data monitoring, while the Gallup
question mentions both phone and internet data. I'm sure the poll-question-
phrasing-savvy can provide some more insight on the differences.

How much of the difference can be attributed to people's minds changing in
response to further revelations, the quality of the government's response, the
opinions of their peers, etc?

[1] [http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/most-americans-
suppor...](http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/most-americans-support-nsa-
tracking-phone-records-prioritize-investigations-over-
privacy/2013/06/10/51e721d6-d204-11e2-9f1a-1a7cdee20287_story.html)

~~~
mpyne
Well we've always known that both the wording and sequence of questions can
affect poll results. I don't know by how much exactly but the effect has been
seen to be significant enough to mislead pundits on seemingly every side of a
given issue until right before an election.

------
rayiner
The key takeaway is this: "Twenty-one percent of Americans disapprove of the
government's actions, but say there could be circumstances in which it would
be right for the government to carry out such a program, yielding a combined
total of 58% of all Americans who either approve or could theoretically
approve under certain circumstances."

I'd bet there are a lot of people in the administration who dislike the idea
of surveillance in general, but approve of surveillance in this particular
case because of the specifics of the situation. Not saying the belief is
justified, but rather that this is always how such beliefs are justified. See
the movie The Siege.

~~~
gbhn
And if you look at poll data from similar scandals in 2006, a very healthy
(about half) of people who objected now, when a Democrat is in charge, thought
it was awesome then, and vice versa.

If you were an intelligence professional, how could you not look at this and
shrug? Is there really a message from the public when about half the people
who seem to care apparently care only for the political hay they can make of
it, and about half the rest just don't know enough to know whether they
approve or not?

To me, that's a real negative of the secrecy -- it sets up low-information
scenarios where the public can't have a real opinion, and so is easily
discounted by insiders, leading to yet more secrecy and potential abuses.

~~~
dllthomas
Well, nothing demonstrates that they're the same people. Strictly, there could
be a chunk of the populace that shifts their allegiance to whoever is more
spy-happy.

... don't think that's actually the case, though.

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rickdale
Over the past few years every company listed in the Prism scandal has done
everything possible to ink information out of us, including the information we
were giving them by using their service. It seems to me like over the past
decade or so more of these companies applications have been developed around
the information gathering protocol. Back in 09 when I left facebook it was
because at the time I was getting friended by people that were just random
from my neighborhood and it sorta hit me that I bet facebook could pin point
my childhood address by looking at my friends and other data. Its all creepy.
But its all worth a ton of money to the government. In my opinion, facebook or
google wouldn't have the value it has today without the information sharing. I
thought that was a given before this scandal broke out.

My point is that I am afraid that the big tech companies were acting as robots
for the government and relying on developing technology around the
surveillance program, rather than innovation.

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MichaelApproved
A more important question is "How passionately do you disapprove?"

For example, even though most Americans believe in tougher gun restrictions,
it's not a high priority in how they vote. That meant politicians weren't
going to spend any of their political capital fighting for that issue.

I suspect privacy isn't a major voting issue with many Americans, so this
number is probably even weaker in terms of swaying politicians. It's
politically easier for a politician to be strong on security with spying than
to stand up for privacy and later have it revealed that information about an
attack could have been known through these spying methods.

Edit: topic clarification and paragraph structure.

------
lvs
to speculate a bit, the 49% of democrats who approve must be viewing this
whole kerfuffle through the partisan lens that it's an attack on the
administration, rather than as an attack on the Patriot Act and other
post-9/11 apparatus that, at least in part, predate the current
administration.

~~~
tptacek
I think the converse is true, and the partisan effect is increasing
disapproval because of conservatives who want to believe that the Obama
government is inept and overreaching.

Either way, not a great discussion to have on HN.

------
RyanMcGreal
Obligatory:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA)

------
Uhhrrr
37% approve, which seems pretty high. I wonder what the response would have
been if it the question wasn't phrased as "the government obtained records",
but as "the government obtained _your_ records".

~~~
TamDenholm
This is why a majority of polls are absolutely useless, you can get the
answers you want by asking the questions in certain ways.

Also, what people say they'd do and what they actually do are two completely
different things. You could ask people if they are sick of hearing about a
tabloid scandal thats been running in the press for a few weeks and they'll
say they are, yet any publication that runs the story has their circulation
numbers go up.

As the saying goes: "Lies, damned lies, and statistics".

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tghw
The problem with these polls is the phrasing. For example:

 _Are you comfortable with the NSA listening in on private phone calls and
reading private emails in order to prevent terrorism?_

vs

 _Are you comfortable with the NSA listening in on your private phone calls
and reading your private emails in order to prevent terrorism?_

People have a strong bias towards thinking that it wouldn't happen to them,
but, as we all know, it has to happen to someone.

~~~
MichaelApproved
_" listening in on your private phone calls"_

I thought the programs that were in the news had nothing to do with
_listening_ in on phone calls. This poll also has nothing to do with the
question of _listening_ to phone calls.

Listening on a call and collecting metadata are two extremely different
things. I'm personally opposed to both but they are miles apart from each
other and shouldn't be confused.

~~~
tghw
You're right, that part is incorrectly phrased, but it's also not really the
point. Change "listening in on" to "collecting metadata about" if you like.
It's still the same problem.

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ericdykstra
What does it matter if "most Americans" disapprove, from any standpoint? It
doesn't mean they won't vote in the same bastards that did this to us in the
first place. And, philosophically, "A lynch mob is majority rule stripped of
its fancy trappings and its facade of respectability." If 90% of Americans
said they're ok with the programs, would that make it alright to violate the
rights of the other 10%?

------
hawkharris
To me it's significant that 37% of Americans support a program that's
undoubtedly unconstitutional. I wonder how much the poll participants actually
knew about PRISM. Either they support it out of ignorance or for political
reasons -- or there's widespread, fundamental misunderstanding of the federal
Constitution.

~~~
malandrew
I'd take this further and do a poll of people to find out how many people
agree with individual provisions of the Constitution. Like literally show
people one clause/section at a time, have them read it and ask them what parts
they agree and disagree with.

~~~
jessaustin
Some experiments have been performed, and the results are not pretty:

[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/24/when-congress-
voted...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/24/when-congress-voted-down-
_n_3332586.html)

 _The House killed Watt 's amendment [the literal text of the Fourth
Amendment] by nearly a 3-1 margin._

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arbuge
Very surprised that Democrats would be in favor... perhaps because it's a
Democrat president in office that's presiding over these programs? I can't
think of any other rational reason.

~~~
sp332
It's possible, but it's probably more indirect. E.g. the Democratic leadership
is playing damage control, and the media that panders to Democrats plays
along, so the Democratic public see the played-down version in the media they
watch.

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readme
The title of this article is wrong. That is why you should be scared.

37% Approve. 57% Disapprove. 10% Don't care.

That means only 20% more disapprove than approve. 10% of people are blissfully
ignorant. 37% are deliberately ignorant. 57% are actually thinking.

You call those good numbers? I call that: fucked.

We are only 7% stronger than the blissfully and deliberately ignorant.

~~~
tsotha
Why do you assume people who disagree with you are "deliberately ignorant"?
Maybe they feel that way because they know know more than you.

~~~
readme
No.

They feel that way because they believe in the ability of a government to
protect them, without making any mistakes.

I would give them credit for thinking this way, the idea that they could be
protected, or that it's good.

What makes them stupid is thinking such a system is so infallible that it wont
end up putting them behind bars one day because of a clerical error.

~~~
tsotha
And you know this... how?

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skwirl
Public opinion is a double edged sword. Be careful when you grasp onto it. One
terrorist attack and it swings back the other way in a hurry. If you truly
believe that these programs violate the fourth amendment, then it doesn't
matter what the majority thinks, your individual rights are protected from the
majority by the constitution.

------
meepmorp
I guess what I find somewhat disappointing is that "most Americans" in this
context means 53%.

~~~
DamnYuppie
I agree I would have thought well over 70% would have found this horrific. Yet
we have been "wussified" so much that many people feel anything that "keeps
them safe" is worth it. So the terror propaganda has worked.....

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mwnz1
And we have all their names.

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Alex3917
According to Gallup, Mitt Romney is also the current president.

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varelse
So basically, whatever party is in power tends to get a pass for its bad
behavior... SSND...

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outside1234
i'm surprised at the democrat vs. republican split on this. i would have
guessed the opposite result.

~~~
noarchy
This is enough to make me suspicious of the poll numbers. This has a very
partisan slant. The Democrats are, to a small extent, rallying around a
Democratic president, while Republican respondents are doing the opposite. The
numbers would likely be flipped around, had this NSA scandal been exposed
during the previous (Republican) president's administration.

------
fourstar
It took a poll to figure this out?

