
Thank you HN - throwAwayXYZ69
About a couple of years ago, I submitted a thread here called &quot;Ask HN: I&#x27;m depressed, what should I do?&quot; [0].<p>I was in a very dark place personally and professionally. I had turned to my family and friends without success, and posted here looking for a moral boost.<p>I would like to thank all the people that have responded with kindness.<p>I just wanted to say that your words helped, that I think about this thread often, and that your effort did actually help someone from a tough spot.<p>Update on my situation:<p>By the time that I got an offer I could live with, I had sent over 250 applications and done around 20 interviews.<p>I started with 33k€ a year (translates to a little less than 2000€ per month), now I&#x27;m at 38k€.<p>I rented a place downtown, and started working out (lost 18kg and counting), I&#x27;m going to run a marathon in 3 months!!!<p>Overall, I&#x27;m not exactly where I want to be, but -for once- I can see myself getting there.<p>I&#x27;m hopeful for the future, and I would like to thank the many people that helped me to get here.<p>Just to sum up, be kind when you can, it can change someone&#x27;s life.<p>[0]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=13134183" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=13134183</a>
======
anotherevan
“When I was young, I used to admire intelligent people; as I grow older, I
admire kind people.”

— Abraham Joshua Heschel

Words I am always reminded of whenever I try to be too clever on the internet.

Glad you're doing better.

~~~
tribesman
>“When I was young, I used to admire intelligent people; as I grow older, I
admire kind people.”

It's the function of their risk profile. Young want to maximize payoff which
is possible through intelligence, old ones want to reduce their risk so are
subject to soceity's kindness.

~~~
qntty
You seem very intelligent

~~~
anotherevan
I was going to write something similar about him being young, but then decided
I was being too clever on the internet.

------
sleepychu
> _Just to sum up, be kind when you can, it can change someone 's life._

This is so great, thank you for the lovely sentiment.

------
braythwayt
Speaking as someone who has lived through dark days myself...

I want to point out that we _know_ that exercise helps with moods. The data is
there. That being said, mood disorders are like autoimmune diseases of the
emotions. Feeling blue or anxious or clinically depressed makes it harder to
work out.

And if you don't, you can easily beat yourself up for not "fixing yourself."

On the other side of the fence, lots of people self-report that exercise
helped them. And it did. But what sometimes gets missed is that they were
already starting to get better, and what motivated them to exercise was that
they were already feeling better.

So it's not as simple as "correlation does not equal causation," but there can
be BOTH correlation and causation at work when you exercise and feel better.

I say all this mainly because some folks have real trouble getting the
motivation together to exercise when feeling down. Same with personal hygiene,
appearance, eating well, and so forth. If anyone reading this knows
intellectually that they ought to exercise, but just _can 't_, please know
that you are not unusual, this is what mood disorders do.

But also know that there are many things that can help, so find the thing you
can do—be it CBT, anti-depressants, whatever—and you will get yourself to a
place where you are better able to do self-care like exercise.

JM2C. My office walls are bereft of credentials in psychiatry.

~~~
mpodlasin
This is said so often and yet for me personally gym helps only very
temporarily - just after workout I feel great, but the next day anxiety might
kick-in again.

~~~
DanBC
The research we have says exercise is moderately better than doing nothing,
unless you only include good quality research in which case the benefit is
harder to see.

[https://www.cochrane.org/CD004366/DEPRESSN_exercise-for-
depr...](https://www.cochrane.org/CD004366/DEPRESSN_exercise-for-depression)

~~~
braythwayt
Thanks for posting this. The conclusion on that page is:

    
    
      > Exercise is moderately more effective than a control intervention for
      > reducing symptoms of depression, but analysis of methodologically robust
      > trials only shows a smaller effect in favour of exercise. When compared
      > to psychological or pharmacological therapies, exercise appears to be no
      > more effective, though this conclusion is based on a few small trials.
    

My personal take is that the big things to note are:

1\. Reducing symptoms of depression is not the same thing as treating
depression.

Thus, if you exercise and it works for you to reduce the symptoms, you aren't
"better," you just aren't feeling as depressed. This is valuable in its own
right, as the symptoms of depression can interfere with you seeking actual
treatment... But it is not helpful if you think you're better, stop exercising
for some reason, and fall back into depression again, possibly with a side-
order of pessimism that nothing seems to work.

2\. Exercise is not more effective than psychological or pharmacological
therapies.

Although they say there are only a few trials to establish this, I personally
feel it's quite safe to assume that it is not more effective, and as per 1
above, that it can be harmful to take an "either/or" approach to exercise and
other therapies. Until someone shows me research saying that exercise in
conjunction with therapy is worse than therapy alone, I personally try to do
both.

\---

The uncomfortable truth about exercise is that a large number of people with
mood disorders self-medicate their symptoms with endorphins. When that is used
as an alternative to therapy, it may be harmful.

------
gfodor
> Overall, I'm not exactly where I want to be, but -for once- I can see myself
> getting there.

Belief in humanity's eternal capacity for self improvement, collectively,
individually, and in ones own self lies at the heart of living a good,
rewarding, and just life. It's becoming increasingly rare. Good luck to you!

------
CodeWriter23
Thanks for sharing your story of strength and perseverance. I’m sure it will
bring hope to others who may be in despair.

I want to add to this conversation, I found my own personal experience with
depression was intertwined with anger and rage. Once I started addressing the
anger and rage, my depression was significantly reduced.

~~~
throwaway874
I'm curious, how did you address the anger and rage?

~~~
CodeWriter23
Someone suggested to me that my anger was inwardly focused and that had a
direct causative effect on my depression. That rang true for me. So my first
work on that was to get my anger directed in an outward fashion. At first,
that entailed literally breaking stuff, chopping wood, climbing steep hills on
my bike until it hurt, just get that energy going in the right direction. Get
it out in the moment instead of bottling it up, fermenting it, then serving an
explosion of it to some undeserving person who happened to be in my proximity.

Later some anger management came in. When I felt anger, I would pause, take a
breath and assess why I felt wronged in a situation. If the reality check was
the other person was crossing one of my boundaries, I would express that
boundary and uphold it in as gentle a way as I was able. Which sometimes was
pretty brutal, but my intent was always to de-escalate and ask for what I
needed without expectation. If the reality check was I had expectations,
particularly unreasonable ones, I would just own it, laugh at myself and move
on. Maybe share it with some people in my support network.

Later, as naikrovek alluded to in his reply, I started working through
childhood trauma issues with a therapist. That's when I got the most relief,
though I'm not sure I could have skipped straight to therapy without doing all
that other stuff first. Discovering my primary trauma as feelings of being
unseen and unheard put things into perspective that made it very manageable. I
just make sure I'm being seen and heard, and those skills evolve over time.

When I feel anger and it isn't about any of the above, I take it as a call to
action to try to invoke some change. Mostly with myself, though at times I
will put ideas out there for other people to contemplate. Acceptance is the
key, however I should not accept the unacceptable. If it has to do with
others, I invoke a cost benefit analysis to see if I want to fight, and if so,
then I do. If I don't feel the fight is worth it, then I use what I call the
short version of The Serenity Prayer, which is "Fuck it". I can't say I let it
go, but I leave it alone. If it comes up in a recurring resentment kind of
pattern, I just remind myself I'm leaving it alone. That gets a lot easier
with time.

Perhaps I'm oversharing for a forum such as this. I hope it is helpful in some
way; we all have our own journeys. Maybe none of this applies to you. I feel
the key things are, be honest with yourself about how well your choices and
strategies are working for you, and make sure you have some support. Some real
people who really care enough to listen to you and help you without judgment.
And most importantly, people who will tell you the truth no matter how painful
it may be to you.

~~~
pknerd
> When I felt anger, I would pause, take a breath and assess why I felt
> wronged in a situation

For me, it is not easy. How do you manage to pause at first place?

~~~
OmIsMyShield
I too struggle very often with the pause and the recognition of emotion before
acting on it.

Something that has been somewhat helpful _to me_ is a meditation method called
mental noting. Please note no method will work for everyone but in case it's
useful to you, here goes.

Basically, my version, please do search for more qualified people's version of
mental noting on the internet:

1) Rest attention on my breathing

2) Notice (I don't always notice, I don't often notice, but sometimes I do)
that I'm distracted

3) Note and label the distraction (mentally say "I'm thinking" or "I'm
itching" or "I'm worrying" or "I'm replaying conversation" etc)

4) Thank the distraction for allowing me to flex the mental "noticing muscle"

4.5) Remind myself not to beat myself up about how long I was distracted, haha

5) GOTO 1

This practice has helped me in slowly building up a mental observer that can
pause from time to time. But, as I said, I still struggle with the pause.

------
durbatuluk
Congrats, I'm your old one at the moment. I'm a bit more desperate because my
wife is pregnant. Happy father's day to me I guess

~~~
CodeWriter23
Showing up and being present is about 80% of the battle of being a great dad.
You can hack the other 30%. At least that was my experience. Smell that baby’s
hair when (s)he is new. The pheromones will bond you and engage you in being
an awesome dad. You might also want to come up with a womb song and sing it
regularly. I chose “You are my sunshine”. It still calms my DD at 9 years old.

~~~
austinjp
110%? I hope so :)

~~~
salmo
If you wanna be a good dad you have to give 100%!

Actually I think the 110% is apropos because, especially early on, you find
out you can do so much more than you think is possible.

------
fisherjeff
I find it increasingly difficult to relate to the optimism and idealism of the
early Web – the use of it to amplify some of humanity’s worst impulses can be
devastating. Fortunately, stories like this one make it possible to catch a
little glimmer of that magic and it’s... exhilarating.

Congratulations, and I wish you all the best, and that you may serve as an
inspiration to others.

------
far_far_away
Just want thank HN as well... my previous submissions:

"I am depressed and I need someone to talk to"
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4928031](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4928031)

and

"Thank you HN, sorry HN"
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5348589](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5348589)

Thanks again. I am fine now.

------
mariopt
> Overall, I'm not exactly where I want to be, but -for once- I can see myself
> getting there.

Depression is the inability to construct a future. It is hard to reinvent
yourself but worth it. The key is to find a daily routine that will get you,
bit by bit, closer to your goals.

Keep up the good work you've been doing.

------
swat535
Congratulations on your success!

I personally find the HN community both inspiring and incredibly generous at
times. I am glad to consider myself an unimportant part of it.

------
adityapurwa
Congratulations OP, really happy for your improvements. I had my fair share of
dark days, but whenever that happens, I believed that it happened to me
because I am strong and I can handle that. I am sure whatever happens to you
is a prove that you are stronger than you think you are.

I used to live alone on a very low salary. When the money ran out, I started
to drink tap water (which arent really drinkable on my region), and just
eating cheap biscuits.

It was only few days before my next month payroll, I was sad that it happened
to me, I dont want to borrow money, and i felt so alone that time.

I just prayed, and that night someone delivered a food to me as they were
celebrating something. Tomorrow and after I also got food, enough until my
payday.

Staying positive is the only way for us to defeat depression. Happy days are
like sunny days, it is easy to seek the sun. Our down times are dark night, we
just need to seek a little harder to see the beauty of the stars.

Hope OP and everyone else is always in good condition and happy.

------
gigatexal
I’m so glad this turned out the way it did. Kudos to you for having the
courage to turn to strangers. And kudos to the community for not having a
4Chan like response. Good luck to you!

------
Improvotter
> I'm going to run a marathon in 3 months!!!

Congratulations, I was gonna run one at the end of October. But because of
exams I really cannot work out 3x a week so I cannot keep my pace up. I had
also broken my toe so I was out for a long while. Can still do 10ks though.
Good luck with the marathon!

------
sbmthakur
Good to read this! If will be great if you could write a blog detailing your
journey. I am especially interested in the improvement of your health.
Depression has claimed many lives and I think your story could help some
people.

------
blacksoil
I'm so happy to read this post. I also wanna testify on how amazing running
is. For me personally, it changed my mood drastically. I was in the moment
when things felt very gloomy and depressed: I didn't feel like doing anything,
activities that were supposedly fun didn't seem like one, I didn't feel like
going out to socialize, etc. Then I started running and it was amazing how it
changed my life. After a run, I always felt very energetic and much happier. I
liked it so much that initially I couldn't even do 3K without stopping, slowly
and surely I kept practicing until I could do an 18K marathon. Perhaps this
wasn't a huge accomplishment for many people, but considering how unfit and
inconsistent of a person I had been, this was a feat for me.

Not only the endorphin produced during a run helped out with moods and
balancing out hormones in the body, it also taught me a very important lesson
about consistency and how life in general is never about competing with
anybody but ourselves.

For those who are interested to start running, follow your own comfortable
pace. Although it might seem very slow at first, don't push yourself too much
cos if you do so, it wouldn't be enjoyable and you wouldn't feel like running
again. Just keep doing it consistently it at the pace you're comfortable with.
Before you realize it, you'll be much fitter than you started with :)

~~~
frereubu
I'd like to reiterate the advice to go slowly at first, both from first- and
second-hand experience. I know an ex-addict friend who was trying to improve
his fitness after years of neglecting it and tried running. He always came
back five / ten minutes later completely destroyed, feeling humiliated about
his lack of ability. Took a while to figure out that he was trying to sprint
for as long as he could as soon as he left the door, which of course meant
that his body gave up almost immediately.

I used the free NHS / BBC Couch To 5K app -
[https://www.nhs.uk/Tools/Pages/couch-
to-5k.aspx](https://www.nhs.uk/Tools/Pages/couch-to-5k.aspx) \- which gives
you a good framework to pace yourself (you start with alternating periods of
walking and running) and has voiceovers from Michael Johnson, as well as a few
others. There are other C25K apps out there, but they tend to be paid - this
one is simple and works well. It was amusing how motivating I found him saying
"you're doing really well" despite knowing this was probably recorded a few
years ago in breaks between Olympic commentary for the BBC.

------
mratzloff
Good to hear. Keep in mind, this part is true for literally everyone:

> Overall, I'm not exactly where I want to be

~~~
acjohnson55
Respectfully, I suggest avoiding saying this kind of thing to someone who may
still be recovering from depression. There's a tendency to want to make what
they are going through relatable, but that risks minimizing the severity of
what they may be dealing with.

Imagine having lost a family member and hearing from someone, "well, everyone
loses things". There's orders of magnitude difference.

I just know from experience that when I've been depressed, the level of
futility I have felt about any dissatisfaction in my life was so much worse
than when I've been mentally healthy. I'm really thankful for more than a
decade free of that level depression.

As an alternative, I suggest simply sticking to statements that are affirming
of how they have described themselves feeling.

~~~
mratzloff
I understand. My point is that you never reach a perfect place because your
goal line keeps shifting. It's easy to undercut your view of your own progress
by noting you aren't where you want to be. There is only ever "in progress,"
and that's OK.

------
geff82
Write mail to eriklistserve [at] gmail dot com and I might have a job paying
20k more a year.

------
lisper
Congrats! Now pay it forward by finding someone feeling blue near you and
helping them out.

~~~
mgiannopoulos
Given the responses here I think he has accomplished this already. Plus, there
is no need to put more pressure on him. :)

------
mikorym
For everyone here on the running bandwagon, I would like to add my 2 cents.

I generally _do not_ encourage people to exercise, at least not like I once
did. Exercise I think is one of those things where discussion never is
anything like the real thing. This discourages a lot of people.

I would generally recommend something like social soccer, since there is a
more balanced support structure imho. I used to easily run a 20 km jog on a
Saturday, but this serves no purpose to mention other than to seem
competitive.

For me, exercise is _not_ an easy fix. It is one thing of many, which can
greatly enrich one's life. Something like being into music can be on par with
exercising, especially if one is unlikely to be able to exercise, whether
because of mood or physical barriers.

But having some sort of encouragement, whether exercise, music or intellectual
or otherwise engaging pursuits is key to me to become a happier person. Dark
days in and of themselves are not necessarily a burden. In some way I would
paraphrase this: "more life, not more effort". Being more relaxed towards life
has been a strong motivator for me.

~~~
joekrill
I know you mean well, but this is not good advice. The benefits of exercise
are so vast and varied, and study after study has confirmed not only the
physical benefits, but the mental benefits as well. To compare it to listening
to music or some other "engaging pursuits" is just completely wrong.

Is it hard to start exercising? Sure. I imagine it's hard to do _a lot_ of
things initially, especially when someone is depressed. To steer folks away
from doing something that could really help in a very significant way is a
huge disservice.

~~~
mikec3010
You recommend soccer but discourage running because it's competitive?

~~~
mikorym
I recommend alternatives, since I find runners to be intimidating to non-
runners. I find it to be similar to the cycling community. Perhaps it is more
about the social stress around it. Soccer can be very competitive, but in
general people would be accommodating if, for instance, you are very unfit or
if you're not good at it. There are no "times" and no "how many times per
week".

Personally I like running a lot, but many of my friends do not. I dislike
running with other people and generally avoid the runner's fad. I am not sure
if my intention is clear, but I wanted to point out that a balance of
activities is often (and in my case) what works for a person going through a
dark time.

In my case, I can go through a dark period while at the same time exercising
regularly. Someone mentioned the need for external stimuli in recovery. I
think for some people, running can be overstimulation. I do think for this
reason other activities are important—a good example is drumming, which after
an hour or two can be a work out. If people want to achieve their goals, there
needs to be a large enough pool of possible goals (which, perhaps, there is)
that fits personality and physical circumstances.

------
toren
Life can be tough as we all know.. Glad to hear that you're doing well, keep
it up.

------
neuro_imager
Really pleased to hear you're doing well. As someone who has faced a similar
situation in the past I can attest as to how hard it can be to pull yourself
out of that downward spiral.

I went through your previous thread and was really impressed by some of the
advice/comments you were given.

I was wondering if anyone with some time on their hands on here could possibly
prepare a repository of all the good advice in this thread (and the OP's
previous thread, and one's like it) as a resource for people who face similar
circumstances. (I have no doubt there are a lot of us out there).

------
throwaway8879
Glad to hear you're doing better, friend. Please keep it up. Taking care of
the mind and the body is the right way to do it.

------
52-6F-62
That's great! Really great!

It's always worth giving it another shot, no matter how hard it seems.

I also want to back up the positive effect exercise has on mental health— it
really can't be overstated.

And to any others who feel the same way: get outside. It might change your
life. And don't forget to maintain a sense of humour—it really helps with
perspective.

------
cdman
Happy to hear that you're doing well and on your path. Just a quick
suggestion: you could take a look at honeypot.io. They take care of pre-
filtering both the companies and candidates, so using their "market place" is
less stressful and less time-consuming than going directly to the companies /
recruiters.

------
humantiy
Congrats and glad you were able to persevere. I've had my share of down times
as well, but at those points I always told myself you don't know happiness if
you've never been on the other side of it and that it will pass. It sucks when
you are but when you make it through it is that much sweeter!

------
austinjp
Good work, you deserve every single bit of it. Keep going. You can do it.

------
binbag
I wasn't contributing then, but it's still very nice to hear, so thanks for
posting. Well done - keep going. And well done to those that gave their time
to support someone.

------
budadre75
What exercises do you do in gym, and how do you keep at it? It's hard to hit
the gym after work because of exhaustion, or early morning before work because
I need my sleep.

------
navs
Well done. As someone that's been dealing with depression and trying to do
many of the things you've been doing, this post is like a form of validation.

Great job!

------
weishigoname
I am glad it helps, everyone have tough period, some you can't just get out
alone, glad you made it, and hope everyone in the same situation will do.

------
pololee
Thank you for sharing. It's such an inspiring story. Ellen said, "It's nice to
be important, but it's also important to be nice".

------
kulu2002
Congratulations! Happy to hear that your time has changed. May all your dreams
come true.

------
luord
That's awesome to read, and things will continue improving for you. :thumbsup:

------
jxub
It's great to hear about your story! Cheers and good luck ;)

------
adventured
Wonderful progress, congratulations. Good luck on the marathon.

~~~
DmenshunlAnlsis
It’s also amazing progress as they’re able to recognize being partway along
the journey as progress! Depressed people tend to think in absolutes (I’m not
where I want to be, and never will be) and being able to see progress as
valuable and sustainable, even when incomplete is a sign of real mental
health. The combination of more activity, a better job, and the ability to
imagine a brighter future bodes very well indeed.

------
c0mpute
Greate going! Wish you all the virtual support I/we can.

------
pknerd
posts like these make HN a unique forum.

Congrats! More power to you!

------
ransom1538
Get some (of life). No one escapes alive.

------
RGamma
Thank you for reporting back!

------
koolhead17
Congrats.

------
movedx
Great job! Keep going :)

------
idonotknowwhy
I really hope n-gate.com goes easy on this one.

~~~
aws_ls
Sometimes, I like to read the funny side of things. (Even though I many not
agree with it.) Thanks for sharing. Hope it lives up.

~~~
idonotknowwhy
Yep, it was decent, and I got a shout-out.

~~~
sverige
If that's a shout-out, I feel really sad for you.

------
ajaygeorge91
If some one post a question like that today, I would reply with a Jordan
Peterson video ;)

------
irregular-john
> I'm going to run a marathon in 3 months

That's not really a time to brag about, my friend. Most people finish in about
four hours.

~~~
taneq
"I finished this Lego set in six months, which is really good because the box
says 6 - 8 years."

------
dgudkov
>...and started working out

I can't emphasize enough how much this helps. If anyone is suffering from
depressions, anxiety and overthinking -- consider starting working out. It
will make wonders to your mood. I'm not saying that it will fix your suffering
entirely, because it typically requires a mental effort as well. But it will
make your life noticeably more enjoyable.

~~~
DanBC
All the evidence we have tells us that people exercise because their illness
has reduced.

We know that exercise has minimal benefits as a treatment for depression.

We should be pushing people towards evidence based treatments, not suggesting
they spend considerabe effort doing something that probably won't work, and
will increase their negative feelings when they fail.

~~~
solidr53
What evidence is that?

------
tehlike
I am not sure if you'd consider a life change, but if you are interested in
moving to US, please also try that. Pay is better here, and life is probably
better too. Being among like-minded people would help you reach where you want
to be.

~~~
adwww
> life is probably better too

What a fucked up assumption. Pay for skilled jobs is way higher in the US than
almost anywhere else apart from maybe Switzerland or Norway, but quality of
life is way more complicated than that.

Not least because of the decent healthcare, paid time off, and social
protections in France.

~~~
tehlike
Make little sacrifices today - with the additional money you save in us, you
can invest in your retirement - buy plenty of places in france and live off of
rent income.

Having worked in the us for a bit over 6 years full time, I am ready to retire
in my home country. I just don't want to, i will probably die in the states -
that's where home is now.

But that's not even what I mean. Life in United States is really good -
especially if you are healthy. Plenty of outdoors activities. People love
their outdoors - they invented even more exciting sports to take advantage of
it. A really good food scene (due to its diverse culture - you can find great
indian, chinese, japanese, italian etc food).

As you said, healthcare and social net is lacking, but you make good money to
make up for it.

------
wellboy
Is it really that competitive these days after uni when you have "no
experience" and are a junior dev?

I assume you have a top 10% GPA?

I always hear in the bay area you get $150,000 straight out of uni, at least
when you're from Stanford etc. Is this not the case anymore?

Edit: Ok, I see you're in France. Then 33k€ is rather reasonable.

There don't really exist exciting software companies in France or Germany,
except maybe blockchain companies.

~~~
throwAwayXYZ69
I was indeed in the top 10% of my school. Even a smaller percentile I guess
since I was on the top 2 or 3 people in my class.

But unless the job is in Paris (which is extremely expensive) I havent found
anything starting close to 40k€

~~~
nicoburns
In the UK my experience has been that graduate developer salaries aren't that
great, but can double for someone woth as little as 1-2 years experience post
university.

~~~
user5994461
French who moved to London here.

Yes, that's what happens in London however that's not what happens in France.
Expect zero increase for the next many years, even if changing company.

