
The forbidden railway: Vienna – Pyongyang (2008) - pantalaimon
http://vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.com
======
willscott
Some contextual notes on how this compares to today:

* American citizens have been denied access to anything except specially chartered train cars since 2013.

* Train service runs daily between Pyongyang and the Chinese border at Dandong. It takes much of a day to travel to the borer.

* Train service from Rason up through Tumangang runs twice each month, and a car from that train will hook up with the next trans-Siberian train outside of Vladivostok and continue to Moscow.

* It shouldn't be expected that the same train runs from Pyongyang to rason as onwards to Russia. The state of the tracks between rason and Pyongyang have apparently deteriorated (largely in terms of intermittent power) such that it can take several days to make the trip down the east coast.

* Russians in the Pyongyang embassy regularly book train passage between the city and the Russian border.

* Standard visas issued by DPRK continue to list tumangang as a valid port of entry.

~~~
fooyc
Do they really have a specific rule for American citizens ?

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yequalsx
Is it ever immoral to visit a country as a tourist? If North Korea does not
fall into this category what country does? I can't imagine being excited about
visiting Phnom Penh during the Khemer Rouge killing field days. Is visiting
Pyongyang acceptable when conditions in North Korea are so deplorable? Why
contribute to propping up such an evil regime?

~~~
atemerev
Not only it isn't immoral, it is highly moral and the best you personally can
do for them.

I was born in the Soviet Union. It has fallen because of Western tourists
coming there, providing the real evidence of the world from the other side of
the curtain. Soviet government welcomed foreign tourists, as they were
genuinely concerned about what Western countries are thinking about the USSR
(for some reason; BTW, Russia is still very sensitive to this). But soon,
Soviet people started to think of unthinkable questions, such as "why all
these tourists from purposedly struggling capitalist countries are so well fed
and well dressed?".

North Korea's government is making the same mistake.

~~~
cfcef
That's absurd. We are talking about a totalitarian regime which does not care
in the least what the West thinks, which carefully ushers tourists who feed it
the hard foreign currency it needs through a well-honed propaganda machine
(read the blog posts of people doing the tour - they all get bused to the same
damn statues and propaganda museums and places) surrounded only by hand-picked
minders & chaperones chosen for their loyalty with no contact with the general
population, with most tours in a city, Pyongyang, whose populations is also
chosen for loyalty to the regime. Try to go 'off script' and you'll see how
they treat tourists. Thinking you'll change anyone's mind is as sad and
pathetic as the people who go there and drop a Bible behind a toilet and think
they have any chance of making a difference.

 _Real_ evidence of the world from the other side of the curtain is provided
by Chinese & Korean smugglers smuggling in K-dramas and hard drives stuffed
full of forbidden foreign media and balloon drops from missionary networks.

You aren't doing jack by going to NK as a tourist. You're propping up one of
the most evil regimes with your money - no ifs, ands, or buts. At least when
people waste money climbing Mount Everest, they're only endangering
themselves.

~~~
atemerev
> We are talking about a totalitarian regime which does not care in the least
> what the West thinks

You are wrong. First, totalitarian regimes care _a lot_ about what the West
thinks. I know it because I grew up in one. They have to be just scary enough,
look crazy enough, and display some signs of "progress" enough (like — can
anybody in the West organise Mass Games? Look at our highly efficient
society!) Modern Russia is, unfortunately, now falling in the same behaviour
pattern.

Now, of course, tourists that are allowed to contact foreigners, especially
Westerners, are filtered through layers and layers of state security. But it
is impossible to do thorough filtering. You can't stop kitchen talks (they
attempted to do it in Soviet Union and East Germany, but failed). Despite you
always are in well-staged Truman show, it is not perfect, and real world is
always showing through cracks, and most importantly, they can see _you_
through cracks.

Back in USSR, in town of Omsk in Siberia where I grew up, a foreign tourist
was a legendary event to be talked about for months (which is why it is of
uttermost importance to travel beyond capital cities, where life is less
staged and opportunities of random encounters are more numerous) — and if he
managed to leave some artefacts, like US-made pen or postage stamps, they were
caressed as real treasures, the evidence of world beyond the wall.

And, of course, smugglers and missionaries are also doing their jobs (VHSs
with Hollywood movies also played their part in the fall of USSR). But not
everybody can be a smuggler or missionary. Everybody can be a tourist and do
their part, though.

And about the money — as a tourist, you'll hardly help the evil regime with
more than $1000-$2000 (do you know how much a rocket costs? This is a small
change). North Korean government is not doing it for your money. They want to
look good in your eyes, to pretend they are not that evil (see that other
comment in this thread — they want more people to think that way).

~~~
cfcef
> I know it because I grew up in one.

You did not grow up in North Korea. North Korea is not the USSR, and it
operates differently. I laid out several ways in which it differed in
explaining why being a tourist is only harmful.

> Everybody can be a tourist and do their part, though.

You know what part you can do which is even more helpful? Donate to malaria
bed nets, or donate to the missionaries and other NGOs.

> And about the money — as a tourist, you'll hardly help the evil regime with
> more than $1000-$2000 (do you know how much a rocket costs? This is a small
> change).

And how 'small change' is _maybe_ contacting a regular North Korean and
_maybe_ changing their view about something and this someday _maybe_ having an
effect?

Every dollar of hard foreign currency counts for a tiny impoverished country
under sanctions. The NK economy is small and stagnant and regularly straining
under the burden of the rocket & nuclear programs.

The NK regime believes that the tourism is very useful and effective, and it
is not endangered in the least by the prospect of toilets with Bibles behind
them, or the chance a tourist will see through 'a crack', and I agree with
them.

> North Korean government is not doing it for your money.

They are absolutely doing it for the money. Just like they were doing Kaesong
for the money, not to 'look good' based on some obsolete analogy to the USSR.

~~~
atemerev
Have you ever had an actual conversation with a live North Korean? Because I
had, and I still insist on my point of view. :)

------
peterburkimsher
I visited North Korea on a tour in 2010. Back then, I had to leave my mobile
phone in China, and the Google Maps of North Korea was totally blank.

The most important things for me - Jesus and technology - are illegal in North
Korea. It was a fascinating experience! What surprised me most is that it is a
"country", with working trains and postal service and businesses. The
government just has totally different priorities to me.

I'd recommend North Korea for a honeymoon. There's no choice of hotels or
restaurants, because you have to go to the government-approved ones. Other
people can't contact you, so there's no disturbances. It was actually very
relaxing!

On another note, I took the Trans-Siberian train across Russia in 2009, and
narrowly avoided being arrested when trying to see if a North Korean logging
camp is still active (I guess it is). Do you think it's safe to write up that
experience now?

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TacoWednesdays
This was a great post when I read it last. I really wish the author would
repost the pictures or post them to a service that they eventually don't
disappear from.

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guard-of-terra
[http://eurasia2005.blogspot.ru/](http://eurasia2005.blogspot.ru/) \- wanted
to check another blog by same author

Unfortunately, all images here have bit rotten.

~~~
tobik
Luckily it was archived with at least some of the images:
[https://web.archive.org/web/20150707005712/http://eurasia200...](https://web.archive.org/web/20150707005712/http://eurasia2005.blogspot.de/)

------
sbose78
Hi, I can only see a few lines in the post. Could you please help me with the
significance?

~~~
Flockster
There is a link to the 'detailed travelogue'

[http://vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.de/2008/04/how-
everything-b...](http://vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.de/2008/04/how-everything-
began.html)

------
ersii
Previous discussions/HN links:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10875434](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10875434)
(4 points, 41 days ago, 2 comments)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2155794](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2155794)
(124 points, 1847 days ago, 19 comments)

