
Burger King launches WhopperCoin crypto-cash in Russia - colinscape
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-41082388
======
moxious
> However, in a later conversation, he warned that they could be used for
> money laundering and ransomware payments.

Maybe I just don't get it but I found this article unintentionally hilarious.

First, the idea of running a distributed ledger to keep track of burger
points. This is the tech equivalent of using a bazooka to address an ant
problem.

Second, the idea of money laundering and ransom ware...imagining Colombian
drug lords cleaning narco dollars into Russian burger points, and my hard
drive ending up infected...you can have your files back in exchange for 100
Whoppers in St. Petersburg.

is this what a block chain bubble looks like?

~~~
mcgarnagle
Say what you will, at least the whoppercoins are backed by something that has
survived the test of time, the whopper.

~~~
test6554
Whopper coins being tied to whoppers is a one-way street. You can't just take
some two week old whoppers to an ATM and feed the bread and patty into the
machine to get whopper coins.

~~~
cgb223
Idk that video of the Big Mac that never decomposed after being left out for
months shows some compelling evedence in the other direction...

------
simias
>Russians will be able to buy a Whopper with the virtual cash, once they have
amassed 1,700 whoppercoins.

>The tech company will run the blockchain ledger for the coin to keep track of
who has coins and what has been done with them.

>Customers will be able to claim their coins by scanning a receipt with a
smartphone.

>[...]the company would be able to shut the system down if it found it was
being abused.

So... BK has a database tracking loyalty rewards and they decided to brand it
"crypto-cash" for marketing? I mean, if they effectively own the ledger, the
coin supply and fix the conversion rate, what's the point?

~~~
eterm
I imagine the conversation went something like this:

"I keep hearing about all this Blockchain hype, how do we leverage that?"

~~~
mixedbit
Or like in this remake of the classic Dilbert about sql database:
[http://www.sytaylor.net/wp-
content/uploads/2015/05/dilbert-c...](http://www.sytaylor.net/wp-
content/uploads/2015/05/dilbert-chain.jpg)

~~~
corysama
Some context makes it even funnier.
[https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Colored_Coins](https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Colored_Coins)

------
flashdance
This is being launched on the WAVES platform. It's pretty much colored coins
with a built-in decentralized exchange. I guess that means you'll be able to
trade your WhopperCoins for Bitcoin/Ethereum/Coinye West.

Some high-level details:
[http://www.waveswiki.org/index.php?title=Features#Custom_App...](http://www.waveswiki.org/index.php?title=Features#Custom_Application_Tokens_.28CATs.29)

Whitepaper: [https://blog.wavesplatform.com/waves-
whitepaper-164dd6ca6a23](https://blog.wavesplatform.com/waves-
whitepaper-164dd6ca6a23)

 _I don 't own any WAVES: this isn't an endorsement, just figured you guys
might want to know how this works "under the hood". Honestly, it seems pretty
sketchy. The whitepaper doesn't cite anything other than some github repos and
the ethereum whitepaper. There's so many platforms out there that promise
they're the best thing since sliced bread: I'd stay away if I were you..._

~~~
shepardrtc
I haven't heard Coinye West in years. Biggest competitor to Dogecoin back in
the day, if I remember correctly.

~~~
flashdance
...until all the developers dumped their coins after they got hit with a
lawsuit from Kanye West's lawyers.

 _Who could have seen that coming?_

------
paulgb
> "Reward points are actually a good use case for blockchains," he said.

This doesn't make sense to me. The whole "innovation" of cryptocurrency is
that you don't centralize trust in one party. In this case you already need to
trust BK to redeem the coin, so what does an untrusted mechanism of exchange
actually give you?

This just seems like cashing in on crypto hype.

~~~
exelius
Actually, it's actually a great use of blockchain.

That way, your customers can transfer points with eachother, etc -- then spend
them at your restaurant. It does in fact decentralize trust -- the key here is
that it's the restaurant trusting the customer, not the other way around.

Each point only gets spent once, and there's a built-in automated mechanism
for "cashing in" those points.

I mean, I agree it's probably dumb for hamburger loyalty points. But it makes
a ton of sense for hotel/airline points if you build the wallet into your
mobile app and allow consumers to transfer points with each other offline. If
it's transparent to the user, there's no reason it couldn't work.

~~~
eisa01
Other loyalty program skim a percentage if you want to gift points, so I'm not
sure that is a feature

~~~
exelius
You can do that via blockchain as well; I imagine BK will own all the
transaction processors, so for any transaction to an external wallet, you add
on a fee. Ethereum and Bitcoin also do this; only the mechanism for
determining the transaction fee is algorithmic rather than a fixed % of the
transaction value.

All that said, loyalty points have a lot in common with crypto currencies
simply from a functional perspective. It's a pretty natural application. You
just merge the points back into the blockchain via an app or something. But
this way it's secure, auditable and likely costs the company less to operate.

------
45h34jh53k4j
For clarity -- this is not cryptocash or cryptocurrency. Its is a User Issued
Asset (aka token) on the WAVES cryptocurrency blockchain. We typically call
these 'cryptoassets' or 'tokens'. You cannot mine these. They are purchased
via the WAVES network, in 'BTC' (which is another 'pegged' asset on the WAVES
chain).

Edit; I bought one whopper coin 3 days ago via WAVES. I paid $0.50USD (majorly
overpaid for it!)

~~~
jargon_hater
Wait, so does that mean a whopper's market price is $850 usd on the exchange?

------
rlpb
"""The crypto-currency is a stand-alone system that has some technical
similarities to Bitcoin but is distinct from it.

This means the company would be able to shut the system down if it found it
was being abused."""

Sounds like it's some kind of centrally controlled ledger where no technical
purpose is served by a blockchain (if there is even one). So not a
"cryptocurrency", then.

~~~
45h34jh53k4j
Nah, this is wrong. BK has no influence over the WAVES blockchain. If they
say, lost the private key with the ~1B whopper coins not in circulation, there
isn't a person who can stop it. (baring ethereum style hard fork, and this
wont happen in Waves).

~~~
rlpb
Perhaps, but the linked article says the exact opposite - as I quoted.

------
moomin
2025 and half of the clientele at Burger King aren't talking to the other half
over the future of Whoopercoin, leading to the first time in history "Burger
King" appears in the same sentence as "fork".

~~~
kyle-rb
I feel like maybe you're neglecting other uses of the word 'fork'?

~~~
iopuy
That was the joke, it's a pun.

------
delegate
I don't really see the point of a block chain in this situation.

Why not implement it on a centralised Burger King server ? Why bother with a
distributed p2p network, mining, apps, when a simple mysql database plus a php
file can achieve the same thing ?

Am I missing something ? If they want crypto so much, just let people withdraw
their points in bitcoin..

I can see the point of a generic "FoodCoin", where each restaurant is a miner
and the coins can be used to buy food in any other restaurant in the network..
Or is that their ultimate purpose ?

But then it's not truly decentralised, I guess the model would be BurgerKing
and a bunch of satellite restaurants using the same coin somehow...

Anyway, don't really see the point of a block chain, beyond hype..

~~~
nxsynonym
Lots of hype and for all the wrong usages of crypto.

There is exactly 0 reasons why BK needs a coin of their own. It's all about
generating hype and trying to cash in on a fad. The worst part is this is the
story that will make headlines and will drive up other bullcrap alt-coins and
ICOs because "if BK is doing it then surely there are riches to be made!".

It's gross.

~~~
bluGill
In Burgerking's case HYPE is more important than anything else. Thus this is
probably the right choice for them even though from a pure technology
standpoint it is wrong. Unlike most alt-coins, this one isn't pure hype
unlikely to ever make it: BK backs it.

On the other hand I expect BK will drop this sometime between 3 months and 5
years from now, and your BK coins will be worthless. 3 months is all the
longer they can sustain the hype, 5 years is longest before the costs of
maintaining all their mining machines will budget cut. I won't speculate on if
there will be a transition plan for whatever replaces it: if you get these
coins turn them in quickly.

~~~
spiznnx
I don't see a particularly good reason to ever have a balance over 1 burger
anyway. It's unlikely you went to burger king and spent money and didn't want
to eat a burger.

------
jefe_
Wondering why they structured it the way they did:

1 Ruble spent generates 1 WhopperCoin

1700 WhopperCoin may be redeemed for 1 Whopper

It seems the 1700 will need to change with currency / pricing fluctuations.

Why not structure it as:

1 Whopper purchased generates .25 WhopperCoin

1 Order of Fries purchased is equivalent to purchasing .3 Whopper (.075
Whopper Coin)

etc.

1 WhopperCoin may be redeemed for 1 Whopper

They would need to adjust the reward generation rates of non-Whopper items
occasionally to accommodate price disparities between various menu options in
relation to the Whopper, but they would not need to alter the redeemable value
of the WhopperCoin. This would essentially create a currency backed by food,
which is interesting.

~~~
flashdance
If they implemented it that way, people might hoard WhopperCoins as a hedge
against inflation / currency collapse.

~~~
spiznnx
Plus, as soon as you have 1 coin = 1 burger, you can't ever reduce the value
of a coin without upsetting people. People still get mad when you devalue
rewards points, but they are less likely to noticed.

~~~
jandrese
In order to have proper inflation, 1 coin is now worth one Whopper Jr...

------
CPLX
For the love of god can someone create a FuckedCompany.com 2.0 version for
this cryptocurrency insanity? The world needs it.

~~~
patrickmay
Good idea! We can keep the comments in a blockchain.

------
technofiend
Sounds like the plot line to a dystopian science fiction where loyalty program
memberships have morphed into mandatory dining requirements. In a few
generations families fracture and split as they become generational fast food
chain supporters along with their football (soccer) clubs...

Against this backdrop we have poor Teddy who only ever wanted Nandos but his
family are die hard Maccabies to the end. And then his favorite player is
traded to Liverpool and the dreaded Chippy Skipper's fry up fish and chips
chain.

~~~
ohyes
It's been done!

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_Government](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_Government)

~~~
technofiend
Sure enough and they took it a bit farther with corporate surnames. Nice.

------
ransom1538
My favorite Burger King stunt was: Delete 10 Of Your Facebook Friends For A
Free Whopper

It did so well that the FB team actually got involved. I always wondered why
apps don't do this to each other. "Delete UBER get 1 Free Lyft Ride!"

[http://geekologie.com/2009/01/the-burger-king-whopper-
sacrif...](http://geekologie.com/2009/01/the-burger-king-whopper-sacrif.php)

------
659087
Just when I thought I could escape the endless ads on Reddit by visiting HN
for a bit.

------
elif
I bet the russia part is to avoid US taxation policies on crypto, which, if
i'm not mistaken, would make BK liable for paying taxes on "income" for the
dollar-value of their own coins "created" at the time of pre-mine, or require
them to know the financial details of someone using them to buy a whopper in
NY due to bitlicense anti-laundering laws.

corporations have been doing equivalent gift card/promo "pseudo-currency"
stuff for a long time, and a bad court decision over this could upend that
entire practice.

maybe this is a harbinger of the US being left behind in an economic paradigm
shift.

------
l5870uoo9y
Is it even legal in Russia? From what I could find:

> "There are at present no legal acts that specifically regulate the use of
> bitcoins in the Russian Federation," but a Russian law firm thinks that
> using it to buy things there could be illegal given that the Russian ruble
> is the exclusive means of payment in the Russian Federation per the law. [1]

[1]:
[https://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2014/01/31/bitcoins...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2014/01/31/bitcoins-
legality-around-the-world/#3333af3f3ccd)

~~~
baybal2
There is a law prohibiting what those dogs call "money surrogates".

Well, if somebody gets wind of somebody having 1m+ of what is effectively
cash, that person will likely get raided by somebody anyways. Happens all the
time

------
gexla
Whopper: a gross or blatant lie.

Of course, this gets started in Russia. Next, we'll see Western Union start a
419 coin in Nigeria.

------
koolba
I wonder how long until this gets forked.

------
duxup
Just from an insane marketing ploy aspect I kinda like this.

It would be fun if you could mine WhopperCoins and such too.

------
ender89
forget the gold standard, I want the burger standard.

~~~
didsomeonesay
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Mac_Index](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Mac_Index)

------
acjohnson55
Sounds like we're only a couple steps away from companies paying their
employees in scrip.

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrip](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrip)

------
avs733
I'm thinking that someone (maybe me) should start a 'shark coin' to just be
blunt about the excitement and interest in crypto-currency officially having
jumped the shark.

------
depsypher
This is either a sign we've reached peak cryptobubble or a smart way to invest
in beef futures. Who can even tell anymore?

------
SurrealSoul
Is this a Mr. Robot episode?

------
odammit
This is definitely more efficient than loyalty punch cards. Bravo.

------
crescentfresh
So... this is just another loyalty/rewards/points system. That everyone does
already. But using "cryptocash". That you can only use at BK. Wow.

~~~
sdiepend
Aren't most loyalty/rewards/points systems tied to one chain/vendor/... ?

------
cgb223
And now we wait for the next version of Cryptowall or Wannacry which will
demand payment in tasty, tasty Whoppercoin

What a time to be alive

------
Keeeeeeeks
Is this just a vehicle for oligarchs to convert their money into crypto?

------
jmull
This article is a perfect fit for reading HN at lunch time.

------
matthew349hall
Could be used in a survival situation

------
rokhayakebe
Crypto-cash or Crypto-loyalty points?

------
castratikron
How can I mine WhopperCoin?

~~~
TremendousJudge
Eat burgers I guess? We're seeing the death of the term cryptocurrency being
used somewhat seriously. A new buzzword will have to be invented

~~~
lucb1e
I've long given up on trusting the terms cryptocurrency and blockchain in
media, or even at events.

A few months ago I happened to walk by some start-up-themed blockchain event
and I stopped to listen to the talk that was going on, and later also listened
to part of the next talk. It was fabulous. They must have read "blockchain is
just a sequence of blocks with info in them" and went wild from there.

------
jimjimjim
Shark. Jumped.

------
No1
E

------
dagenleg
Russian Burger King division has the wildest marketing department.

------
quoquoquo
If you read the Red Notice by Bill Browder, you will know this to be true
about Russia: It's a lost cause.

It's a lost cause because the good people in Russia are killed and eliminated
with impunity by thugocracy.

You can't have a future when everyone in power is stealing from their own
people.

рыба гниет с головы

------
gexla
I predict the price of whoppers goes up 1000% in Russia and you have to be in
the Russian Mafia to even afford one. And even if you can afford one, don't
let them catch you buying one. They will take over the supply.

Drive-through: I'll take a Whopper with... BOOM. Sniper takes out the civilian
for ordering the wrong menu item.

