

Ask HN: Ideas on how to change the Culture at a big Corporate Bank - sw1205

Hi guys,<p>I work for a large bank and work in the technology part of that bank. I am trying to put a presentation together with the aim of trying to highlight ways of changing the culture within the technology part of the bank.<p>Currently I work in a sterile, dreary office. We have to wear suits. We are bogged down by process and the people I work with have ideas, good ideas, but have not got the time or inclination to do anything with those ideas.<p>I want to change this. I know that is an almost impossible task but I have read various articles across the web on why people enjoy working where they do and how they promote a culture that promotes collaboration, idea generation, a culture that is non corporate.<p>Do any of you work for corporate companies and witnessed a changing culture? Do any of you work for non corporates and are able to explain why you enjoy working where you do?<p>In my mind there is no reason why just because I work for a bank that the technology part of the bank can't operate a similiar culture to web startups and leading tech companies like Google, Apple etc.<p>Any help you can give would be great!<p>Thanks in advance..
======
Robin_Message
Read <http://www.ribbonfarm.com/>, <http://www.sebastianmarshall.com/>, and
anything else you get your hands on about strategy. Seriously, the things that
are holding you back are corporate, office and national politics. These aren't
insurmountable obstacles, just impressions of them. It's a bank for goodness
sake, it's not meant to be interesting.

Suits and a sterile office are not the problem. They are the symptom; and more
than that, they are the signal and the filter for the type of people that work
there (so I can see you having just as much problem getting your comrades-in-
arms to agree to "collaboration, idea generation and non-corporatism" as your
managers.)

(I've written this assuming you're not a manager. If you are, great, it'll be
easier to do either of these options and you can probably shave a couple of
years of the timeline!)

The best advice I can think of (other than give up, obviously) is to first
prove technical competence, in the form a high-level executive understands (I
saved us X million dollars on Y different occasions) and then get them to
support you in setting up a team (which you will lead and will almost
certainly need to recruit from outside to fill — quick, who's the first person
you phone?) that will do the projects you want to do (quick, what can you do
that might add a billion the bank's bottom line?) and provide the political
cover to do what you want. It'll take 5-10 years, it's risky and it requires
political skill.

An alternative tactic would be to think of the best technical practice that
your office doesn't use that you could introduce via your co-workers, without
threatening your manager, and start trying to do that. It's low key but if its
an effective practice you could see payoffs quicker than the above plan. It
won't get rid of the suits on its own though.

Anyway, good luck! I just really hope you weren't thinking of standing up and
saying "I wish we had more foosball, fewer suits and daily pushes to our
online banking app (which we are gonna rewrite in Ruby)."

(edit to add: The "How to Manage Geeks" current on the front page is also
quite good, but doesn't really help you. <http://www.wikihow.com/Manage-
Geeks>. I also recommend: <http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/management>
[http://blogs.hbr.org/cs/2010/08/managing_older_managers_a_gu...](http://blogs.hbr.org/cs/2010/08/managing_older_managers_a_guid.html)
<http://www.randsinrepose.com/archives/cat_management.html>)

~~~
kaitnieks
> prove technical competence, in the form a high-level executive understands
> (I saved us X million dollars on Y different occasions)

Wouldn't this imply that their current process works since it allows saving
huge amounts already?

~~~
Robin_Message
Saying I can achieve 10X on the back of X is more credible than saying I would
be able to do 10X, but the current process is holding us back. It's rare for
the current process to be so broken you can't achieve anything; although I
accept you may need to break some rules to even get the X.

------
jjm
I once thought like this however things changed once I realized at least a few
interesting insights (read: NOT rules!). And this is strictly my opinion,
which the OP has asked for.

* Not only must change absolutely come from the top, but so must the attitude. This may require getting new management, takes __money__, and time, and full support from your board. I really want to point to this one article by FC [1] but it's half link bait. None the less this list has characteristics (most of them, not all) of desired change (when you read it, remove 'social'). Sometimes, you may need to get rid of board members. The ones that say "If it ain't broke why fix it?" (because you found out it was never fixed in the first place, or it's broke cause customers don't exist anymore).

* Attitude must be filtered down from the top to the _lowest_ of ranks. This takes time, and may require getting rid of dead weight _just like Silicon valley companies_. [2][3]

* Moving fast means just that. A large amount of people grew up with 'process', love to feel important, is all they know, and firmly believe there is nothing better. (Wish I could site some psychology papers on this with related research in 'process engineering'/'re-engineering' but I don't follow the field anymore and can't remember off the top of my head any...). Even for getting rid of people there is a huge, long process. Microsoft is also seen as NOT moving fast enough [4] (well, in comparison to some banks and health insurance corps MS moves at light speed).

* Get rid of people rather than 're-education'. Sometimes your teams need to be reborn and you _can't_ teach everyone to be at the same level and expect them to have new enthusiasm. Especially so when you have a huge honking boat of people at your Big Corp. People are different, and most likely they were hired for different reasons from when you 'started change'. Many older people (40+) at big corps today surprisingly don't have degrees (which Doesn't matter) nor want to learn anything new (what really matters). If they can't get excited over new tools (read: programming languages, platforms) how they heck will you get them excited with what your going to build (you need passionate people, impossible to have 100% on board with your passion. It's like finding co-founders for a startup).

* Applications and process are entrenched deep so that Big Corp must rely on them. This is really FEAR. Fear of change! See my first point, and if fear still exists keep firing.

* Once you eliminate dead wood, got rid of fear, have board approval, have great teams, you'll need to engrain in to the new culture some form of 'iterative process'. Customers are always moving targets and you should always be ready - to move and catch new ones. Well, unless your a Monopoly (in which case it doesn't matter and any change means less profit on the CEOs quarterly).

* Last bit of insight, sometimes you just can't change people. You can only assemble people, so assemble the ones you need.

[1] [http://www.fastcompany.com/1761924/top-ten-ways-ceo-s-
must-c...](http://www.fastcompany.com/1761924/top-ten-ways-ceo-s-must-change-
to-lead-in-the-social-business-marketplace)

[2] [http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/2011/03/17/whom-should-
yo...](http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/2011/03/17/whom-should-you-hire-at-
a-startup-attitude-over-aptitude/)

[3] [http://venturebeat.com/2010/05/05/23-insights-from-the-
netfl...](http://venturebeat.com/2010/05/05/23-insights-from-the-netflix-
culture-deck/)

[4]
[http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_39/b3952001....](http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_39/b3952001.htm)

------
Peroni
_In my mind there is no reason why just because I work for a bank that the
technology part of the bank can't operate a similiar culture to web startups
and leading tech companies like Google, Apple etc._

The issue with working in FInancial Services is Corporate governance &
compliance. Every single detail in a bank is monitored & regulated to the
point where there are unbelievably strict rules covering every element of the
business. I appreciate culture can't be controlled by rules & regulations but
it does tend to cripple creativity & freedom quite significantly.

Good luck.

~~~
gte525u
I agree - it seems like any regulated environment tends to evolve into a
dreary office culture. That being said it's likely the OP could create a
_group_ that supports innovation or has a radically different culture,
however, it'll be a target for internal politics. Best bet is cherry-picking
best practices and then adopting them in phases.

------
malandrew
I've been in your shoes. I used to work at Banco Itaú in Brazil and spent 6
months trying to get them to let in Apple or Linux machines in a company with
like 28,000 windows machines. I also got away with having large plants on my
desk even though it was against the rules.

How did I get away with even that much and was it worth it?

To get a new technology introduced, I had to escalate my issue all the way to
the CEO of the Bank. This was only possible because I was not an IT employee.
I was one of the well paid financial analysts with a fair amount of clout in
our area of the bank. I would not have been able to convince the bank of any
change had I not worked for a profit center of the bank. As you are in IT, you
are part of a cost center (accept this as a fact of life). The only way you
are going to make any changes in any reasonable time frame is if someone in a
profit center champions your cause. Cost center areas of the bank rarely will
be able to raise their issue high enough to make any difference. Banks make
money hand over fist so as long as a cost center like IT doesn't get in the
way of making money, the top brass just won't care. They won't and no amount
of believing that they will will make them think otherwise. Banks are large
rent-seeking institutions run by people who just want to make as much money as
possible to retire early or keep up with the joneses. I promise you that few
if any of these people will care about your plight. They certainly don't see
suits and dull dreary offices as part of the problem. Watch American Psycho.
Many like the suits (because they are probably wearing Armani and Gucci suits
and then spend their evenings in restaurants and bars where women notice that
kind of thing). The fact that you are wearing suits will not be seen as
problem for them. They may even wonder why you wouldn't want to wear a suit. I
was the only financial analyst that didn't leave the bank for lunch without my
suit jacket when it was 100 degrees outside and humid. They like the suits.
They command power and respect.

Was it worth wasting my time on trying to change the culture at the bank? NO.
NO. NO. NO. Don't bother. You'll fight tooth and nail for a year for a tiny
concession if you are lucky and you'll always wish things were better. Well
they can be better, but not in the bank. Go elsewhere. Go work with real
engineers and tech people in a business where tech is a profit center. You
will only ever be happy in a company where the job you do is part of a profit
center.

Leave. Trust me. Leave.

I've been out of the bank for 3 years now and after working at two tech
companies in the meantime, I'm now building my own startup with some friends
and learning so much more about tech and business than a lifetime of working
at a bank would have taught me. If I had stayed at the bank, I probably would
be making a half million to a million dollars per year with bonus by now. I'm
currently near broke and bootstrapping and could not be happier. I can't
afford vacations or nice cars, but I also don't work a shit job where those
are the only things in my life that I have to look forward to.

If you still decide to give it a shot, check out the links from
Robin_Message's answer and the book Fearless Change, which is a pattern
language book with culture change patterns to help you solve the problems you
encounter. I wish I had had that book when I was trying to change things at
the bank.

------
thristian
Believe it or not, Zed Shaw once gave a great talk on doing quality work in
the stifling corporate culture of large financial institutions:
<http://vimeo.com/2723800>

It's not directly related to _reforming_ that corporate culture, but it'll
probably give you some good tips if you decided that your particular ocean is
taking too long to boil.

~~~
allenp
Great link - thanks for that.

------
locopati
1) Figure out your motives - what are you looking for? Are you trying to
satisfy a personal craving, do your job better, fulfill the goals of your
employer better? Accept that it is possible your motives may not be able to be
satisfied where you are now; accepting that, you may need to find something
that is a better fit for you.

2) Start where you are. What can you do personally or within your team to make
things better. Are there processes that you follow but don't really need to
follow because they don't serve real goals (i.e. they're done because that's
how it's done)? Are there things in your immediate reach that can be improved
and how do those improvements serve the larger goals (e.g. do they save money,
time, reduce tedium)?

3) It can be better to ask forgiveness than ask permission (sometimes). Are
there ways you can change things that can be justified after the fact? What if
you started using a different approach because the team decided it was the
right thing to do and knew from experience that it would work and be an
improvement. Once it was working, then present it as a 'better way' with the
proof already laid out. Realize too that there's a time and a place for this
and only you can know when that might be (e.g. the time to try something new
might not be during a frantic push to release a new feature).

4) Find a sponsor. Is there someone higher up who you can show successes to
and who would support you? Technology is not just about clean code and good
technical architectures, there is also a cultural architecture that must be
considered. We don't develop software or create systems in a vacuum of ideal
decisions; we work with the constraints of time/demands of the larger
organization. Having someone to help navigate the political ground can help
accomplish your goals while also improving things. A sponsor can help build
trust within the organization.

5) Be patient. Cultural change can take years. Maybe that's not what you want
to be doing with your time. That's fine too. Maybe it will never happen.
That's also fine. The question is are you finding satisfaction in your job and
remaining flexible and vibrant while doing what needs to be done?

------
kaitnieks
Please, please keep us updated about how it goes for you, whether you
succeeded or failed. I generally don't believe in change in culture and
thinking, unless it comes from a leader or authority figure, so I always kind
of work around these things, but I would be so glad to know that it is
possible and that you succeeded.

From my experience, it's even hard from a leader to change an existing
culture, the most effective way that has worked for me is to make up a set of
clever rules that reward the "correct" thinking and punishes the "wrong"
thinking, instead of trying to talk people into doing things in a new way.

------
illdave
Sorry if this is slightly off-topic (as it doesn't really necessarily improve
"culture"), but it sounds like your bank could do with something like a
password protected version of My Starbucks Idea:
[http://mystarbucksidea.force.com/apex/idealist?lsi=0&cat...](http://mystarbucksidea.force.com/apex/idealist?lsi=0&cat=Coffee+%26+Espresso+Drinks)
(but for employees, instead - or maybe just your tech team).

I mention it because of the fact that you have people coming up with ideas
that then get ignored. Having somewhere were ideas can go, and get voted up
could be a small shift towards making those ideas actually happen.

Incidentally, Does anyone know if there's a commercially available version of
that that isn't outrageously expensive? Starbucks' seems to be custom-built
with Salesforce, I could be wrong.

To answer your question about working for non-corporates - I've spent a lot of
time working at marketing agencies, the jobs I enjoyed the most didn't have a
dress code and allowed me the time & freedom to actually implement the ideas I
came up with.

------
gorbachev
Good luck. This is one of the main reasons why I just left a company with a
very similar culture. It wasn't going to change.

Our "achilles heel" was security. Simple deployments were a nightmare, because
of approvals and need to wait for someone with top secret credentials to
actually execute them.

Collaboration and idea generation only existed, if someone scheduled a meeting
to do it. Really?

------
j_col
In the same boat myself right now, currently putting together slides on open
source for senior management, showing them how it could save them a fortune.
Always try to make a business case when trying to push through changes, as
most managers (even outside of the financial services area) will not be won
over by technical arguements, no matter how strong they are.

------
angdis
Changing culture (or changing anything for that matter) is a REALLY DIFFICULT
job and it takes a long time.

There's an excellent substantial podcast/interview on this subject on
"software engineering radio": [http://www.se-
radio.net/2009/06/episode-139-fearless-change-...](http://www.se-
radio.net/2009/06/episode-139-fearless-change-with-linda-rising/)

Linda Rising wrote a great book about changing culture, "Fearless Change". She
actually approaches this topic pragmatically using the concept of "patterns"
as the tool. ([http://www.amazon.com/Fearless-Change-Patterns-
Introducing-I...](http://www.amazon.com/Fearless-Change-Patterns-Introducing-
Ideas/dp/0201741571))

IMHO, you're in for a long ride if you want to make substantial changes in
culture. I think you really have to love the place and people you're working
with to be able to tolerate the amount of highly cooperative effort and
"politics" it will take.

------
mcfunley
What are your motivations for wanting to do this? Do you think this
undertaking is easier than finding a job that would make you happier? Do you
care deeply about the mission of the ... bank? Is this your first job out of
college?

------
talkingtab
An organization such as a bank is a self-consistent entity. And the culture
_is_ the organization. Organization === culture. If you don't believe it, look
at Microsoft - they cannot change for the life of them. You want to try to
change part of the organism and what that will do is to make you foreign to
the rest of it. Bad news.

People think that "saving money" will justify changes. It is not true, an
organism will not destroy itself in order to become more efficient.

------
mryan
Driving Technical Change sounds like an appropriate book. I have not read it,
but it has been on my tech books wish-list for a while now:

<http://pragprog.com/book/trevan/driving-technical-change>

~~~
JustAGeek
I was about to suggest that book, too. Also, check out this blog post:
<http://agilitrix.com/2011/03/how-to-make-your-culture-work/> which outlines
some of the ideas presented in the book "The Reengineering Alternative: A plan
for making your current culture work" by William Schneider.

------
franze
the best way: start a more successful competing company - yeah, that's hard in
the corporate bank sectors, but much easier than changing a behemoth that does
not see the need for change - and behemoths only see the need for change when
their survival is seriously threatened.

if that is not a strategy you want to pursue - then first change yourself! do
you wear a suit? get rid of it. do you were shoes? get rid of them! so you
work in a cubicle? buy a mac air and sit on the floor or at the cafeteria
instead? to many meetings - for the next one wear a dress (oh, the good old
times...).

first change yourself, then change the company.

------
sw1205
This is great - thanks for all your comments guys. I will read through all
these links and build them into the presentation. I will also share the
presentation with you all if any of you are interested.

------
known
Promote
[https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Intrapreneurs...](https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Intrapreneurship)
in your Bank. Google does the same.

------
michaelochurch
The first question: what power do you have to affect change? Are you senior
management? Or "protege" of someone high up in the company? If not, your odds
of bringing in sweeping cultural change are low. Very low.

Second question: how much reach do you need? Do you want to work in: (a) an
environment where no one wears a suit, (b) an environment where no one has to
wear a suit, (c) an environment where tech people don't have to wear suits,
(d) an environment where suits aren't required but everyone seeking promotion
still wears one? The more people who will have to change to suit your vision,
the lower your chances of success.

Third: the problems with your work aren't abstract cultural issues. They're
concrete. So focus on those, because some are very easy to fix and some are
get-another-job-now intractible. What's the _real_ problem? If you enjoy the
work but hate the "sterile, dreary" office decorum, suck it up because that's
a small issue. If the problem is bad management and you're a grunt, best to
leave on your own terms because raising the issue could have you leaving not
on your own terms. If the problem is bureaucracy, ask your manager if it's
possible to hire another person to manage the bureaucracy so technology people
can be more productive. Abstract cultural problems are vague and hard to
specify, much less solve. Concrete problems have solutions (but the solution
may be that you need to get another job.)

------
Hisoka
Stop playing a losing battle. if you want change, change your surroundings,
change your job, and change yourself. Start your own business, and make your
own rules. Show others how management and culture is supposed to be done.
Start a real revolution. Don't start a revolution inside prison walls. It's
hard, most people probably will resist (they just wanna get a paycheck and go
home to drink a cold beer/play with kids), and you probably won't get credit
for it.

