
How Mapbox Is Winning Over Developers to Challenge Google's Mapping Dominance - coloneltcb
https://www.forbes.com/sites/bizcarson/2018/05/08/mapbox-maps-developers/#79431e78164d
======
lukeqsee
There are more alternatives to Google & Mapbox that mostly use OpenStreetMap
as a backing data source:

    
    
        https://openmaptiles.org (only map tiles)
        https://stadiamaps.com (map tiles, static maps & routing)
        https://www.thunderforest.com (only maps)
        https://geocoder.opencagedata.com (only geocoding)
        https://geocode.earth (only geocoding)
    

A laundry listing:
[https://switch2osm.org/providers/](https://switch2osm.org/providers/)

Tile providers are very thankful for the excellent rendering libraries built
by Mapbox, Mapzen, and the Leaflet project. Most maps either use Leaflet.js or
MapBox GL JS (open source) for their rendering agent, now that Mapzen is
defunct (although their rendering library, tangrams, is now open source).

(I am a co-founder of Stadia Maps.)

~~~
plopz
Do you know of any tile service offering colored, shaded elevation reliefs?
I've been trying to find something for our meteorologists to use and the best
I've found is [https://maps-for-free.com](https://maps-for-free.com)

~~~
lukeqsee
> Do you know of any tile service offering colored, shaded elevation reliefs?

Does that imply variation in coloration based on elevation? (Just making sure
I understand your question.) We have limited support for basic hillshading and
are actively looking into contour lines. Coloration for various elevations is
something we do not currently offer (nor am I aware of any other providers),
but it is something we would be willing to investigate.

Depending on what precise application you need, this may be possible one the
web using our normal vector maps and contour lines.

~~~
plopz
Yes, color for elevation and shading for slope.

Another use case that I've been searching for is a tile set not of images, but
of just elevation data. So that I could implement something similar to google
earth's lat/lng/elevation info wherever your mouse cursor is.

~~~
Const-me
You don't need a web service for that. The data is free, search for "SRTM" and
download the continents you need.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuttle_Radar_Topography_Missi...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuttle_Radar_Topography_Mission)

~~~
plopz
Sure but I have no expertise on how to take those files and turn them into a
tiles that correspond with the same basemap image tiles. Also ideally the
service would incorporate more than just SRTM, including for example the USGS
high res DEM where available.

~~~
jsgo
Same boat, but does this help at all?
[https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/SRTM](https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/SRTM)

~~~
traek
This is just what the comments you replied to were discussing

~~~
jsgo
You’re right, but seems to include implementations the user may be able to
leverage? Specifically "In Use" and "Data in OSM format (XML)"

------
tboyd47
More crucially, they are winning over executives of medium-to-large internet
businesses with superior sales and marketing.

Individual engineers at these places do not have the power to make decisions
about which map software to use, which are often six- or seven-figure
contracts. Mapbox offers a service that is comparable to Google Maps in terms
of price, quality and flexibility. From a technical standpoint, there are pros
and cons to both services; Mapbox's toolkit is more modern than Google, which
means documentation is a pro for Mapbox but legacy browser support is a con
(though it's just a minor annoyance).

Where they far outstrip Google is in sales and customer support. Google Maps
won't bat an eye for you, even if you're paying them millions of dollars a
year. The Mapbox team, in contrast, will devote developer time to answering
your questions, respond to GitHub issues for you in a timely manner, and even
create new plugins and repos if you have a legitimate need. That is their big
advantage and that is what is driving adoption.

Source: I was employed at a medium-sized internet publisher, and tasked with
evaluating Mapbox to replace Google Maps, was a primary developer working on
the switch-over, and even wrote a blog post about the experience [0]. They
even invited me to their office to work with them for a day (which,
regrettably, I wasn't able to follow up on).

[0]: [https://blog.rentpathcode.com/webpack-progressive-
enhancemen...](https://blog.rentpathcode.com/webpack-progressive-enhancement-
for-humans-e2af9a4fef9f)

~~~
jpatokal
Out of curiosity, did you have a paid support plan for Google Maps, or what
are you basing your impressions of their support on?

Also, part of the Google Maps Platform launch is that support (as in, being
able to file tickets and get answers) will be extended to _all_ users:
[https://mapsplatform.googleblog.com/2018/05/introducing-
goog...](https://mapsplatform.googleblog.com/2018/05/introducing-google-maps-
platform.html)

Disclaimer: I used to work on Maps Support at Google.

~~~
tboyd47
I'm just relaying the reason the senior director gave us for the switch. I
evaluated Mapbox, but more from the angle of _can_ we use this rather than
_should_ we. It was really as if the decision had been made already.

We did have a paid package with Google Maps. Good to hear that Maps is amping
up their support.

------
bazizbaziz
Last I checked, MapBox's WebGL based vector tile renderer was a cut above the
rest. For simple mapping, Google's stuff may cut it, but MapBox has the
ability to draw complex vector polygons over a wide area that
render/zoom/scroll fast and provide a nice experience. This is pretty
important if you want to provide fine grained analysis of geographic areas.

If you wanted this on GMaps, you were stuck rendering all your vectors to
image tiles, hugely increasing the size. MapBox's vector support made this
very easy! It may be that Google/free options have caught up in this space,
but I haven't re-evaluated in a few years.

I think MapBox could also be a winner in the GIS space as the GIS options have
not made the most graceful move to the web.

~~~
zerebubuth
Mapzen, a now sadly defunct mapping startup, also had an awesome (if I say so
myself - I used to work there, but not on that team) vector tile renderer for
browser and mobile. Check it out at
[https://github.com/tangrams](https://github.com/tangrams)

Also, there was a great interactive style editor
([https://github.com/tangrams/tangram-
play](https://github.com/tangrams/tangram-play)), although it seems the demo
site is broken now :-(

~~~
skate22
Any chance mapzen would open source the code used to make metro extracts? The
formats your team had to offer were so much nicer than working with raw OSM
data

~~~
zerebubuth
I'm glad you found them useful! The code which made all the metro extracts was
embedded as a Chef recipe, although I'm sure you could just extract the bits
which do stuff from the Chef wrappers: [https://github.com/mapzen/chef-
metroextractor](https://github.com/mapzen/chef-metroextractor)

~~~
skate22
Cool! Thanks you!!

------
dabernathy89
Since Google Maps jacked up their prices a few days ago, I've been exploring
alternatives, including Mapbox. Unfortunately Mapbox is also very steep for a
solo developer developer who wants to build a side project - at least if it's
considered 'commercial'. $500 / month for only 250 users, and no way to plan
beyond that without inquiring with them about an "enterprise" plan.

Also, if anyone from Mapbox is reading this, you need to be more clear about
what is considered "commercial". At the top of the pricing page you define a
commercial app as:

    
    
      Paid web app or website (fee or subscription)
      Private web app or website with restricted access
      Asset tracking app or website to monitor people or things
    

But then lower down on the page, you seem to indicate a more permissive
definition:

    
    
      If your app is for internal business use by employees,
      or if it is not accessible or functional for members
      of the general public then we consider that a
      Commercial app.
    

Even with these two definitions, it's not clear how this pricing works for
freemium websites or websites paid for by advertising.

There are some other alternatives that are more truly "pay as you go" or have
affordable tiers for commercial apps:

TomTom - [https://developer.tomtom.com/store/maps-
api](https://developer.tomtom.com/store/maps-api)

MapQuest -
[https://developer.mapquest.com/plans](https://developer.mapquest.com/plans)

Stadia Maps - [https://stadiamaps.com/](https://stadiamaps.com/)

There is also MapFit, which says it has "Clear pricing that scales with you"
but doesn't actually explain any of their pricing:

[https://mapfit.com/pricing](https://mapfit.com/pricing)

If anyone else has good alternatives that are affordable for solo devs,
especially ones with good alternatives to the Google Maps Places API, I'd love
to hear about them.

~~~
lukeqsee
We don't have Places API support, but we definitely are aiming for products
from solo devs and smaller businesses at Stadia Maps. We have a few
suggestions for places to look when our services have a hole.

For instance, Foursquare has a pretty good places API we've used before.

~~~
dabernathy89
Ah thanks for mentioning Foursquare - I meant to list it. It's another one
that has a huge upfront cost for solo devs building a commercial app ($600 /
month).

~~~
lukeqsee
> It's another one that has a huge upfront cost for solo devs building a
> commercial app ($600 / month).

Yeah. :(

This problem seems to extend to the whole industry. Everyone charges big bucks
to even very small players. We want to solve pieces of that we can, but it's a
tough road to build quality databases.

------
valar_m
I have no evidence to support it, but this article feels like bought and paid
for PR.

~~~
ropeadopepope
All media is bought and paid for PR. The only question is who's paying for it
and why. That's not necessarily a bad thing, either. It's just the way it is.

~~~
jefurii
I wouldn't say that all media is _PR_ specifically, but it's true that all
media is bought and paid for by somebody. It might be a giant corporation
paying a mechanical turk to write what they want. It might be somebody with
the luxury of taking their own time to write. It might be a professional
journalist working for a publication that sells ad space to pay its bills, and
which doesn't want to piss off ad buyers.

------
pcwalton
Mapbox has some really cool tech. They care a lot about rendering performance
and do a lot of open-source work in the GPU vector graphics space; e.g.
[https://github.com/mapbox/mapbox-gl-js](https://github.com/mapbox/mapbox-gl-
js)

I've always enjoyed chatting with their engineers about vector graphics stuff.
:)

------
chrishynes
Not so surprising after Google's recent pricing changes. They reduced the free
tier by an order of magnitude and 10xed prices.

Google maps is no longer good for hobby projects as the free tier is so low.

It's like they're trying to drive away everybody but but big enterprise shops.

~~~
wccrawford
It depends on your hobby project. Google's free tier gives unlimited map
views, commercial or not. (Edit: On native apps.)

Mapbox's free tier only gives 50k map views, and only for non-commercial apps.
If you're a paid app, you also have to pay $499 per month on top of your
usage.

~~~
dabernathy89
Mapbox also gives unlimited map views for native mobile apps. Pricing is
instead based on monthly active users (50k free).

~~~
wastedhours
Not if your app is paid though, and then the $499 only covers you to 250 seats
(!).

I like what they're doing, and wanted to use them for a web app with
restricted access, but certainly not going to pay $499pcm for a side project.

~~~
EQmapbox
Happy to chat custom pricing, I work at Mapbox with many of the solo /
independent developers. I'm @EqMapbox on twitter.

------
xando
Speaking from the perspective of someone who did some amount of web stuff with
maps.

Mapbox feels really good. API, docs and rendering performance all of this is
really good. Although it's not an obvious choice if you are starting fresh. I
personally find the pricing impossible to digest. Probably sounds reasonable
for well-founded startups from developed countries. If your doing a
bootstrapped product and can't pay 500$ it's not for you.

Google Maps. the v3 it's here for a while. The API feels good, but not great,
Stack Overflow is your documentation. Rendering performance is bad, rendering
performance with (many) markers without some hacks is terrible, rendering
performance on mobile is even worse. I'm trying to figure out what new the
pricing means for me.

Leaflet and OpenStreetMap look like a better choice for all hobby projects and
small product from now on.

------
Quanttek
> _Widespread adoption has other benefits. Mapbox doesn 't need to send out
> pricey cars or satellites in space to map the world. "Map data is not like
> food, air, water that's just around. It takes active work to make it," says
> Young Hahn, Mapbox's CTO. Whenever someone opens a Mapbox map, that person's
> phone or computer sends three pieces of anonymous data back to the company:
> longitude, latitude and a time stamp. These billions of data points
> constantly improve Mapbox's real-time plug-and-play map of the world. "Every
> time you touch the map, the map is learning," Gundersen says. "It's that
> flywheel."_

What do they mean by that?

~~~
mtmail
The Mapbox map is tracking its users. Based on that location data they can
derive unmapped roads, turning restrictions, traffic jams (and time-of-day
congestion), construction. And feeding other machine learning system to
improve the data set. In a recent press release they talk about deployed
sensors, no longer users. Google Maps knows when rush hour at your local gym
is, Mapbox wants the same. It's a big selling point to their investors because
staff editing/fixing the map doesn't scale well.

~~~
jstandard
Any ideas about how they're solving the need to constantly update meta data
like speed limits or POI names? This is the part of the OSM data set I found
particularly weak when comparing vs. Google Maps.

~~~
mtmail
For those I assume licensing data from commercial providers. For Germany
geocoding for example Mapbox uses government data, not OpenStreetMap (found
out reading a github issue when another user asked why an OSM change wasn't
reflected).

[https://www.mapillary.com/imagery](https://www.mapillary.com/imagery) is
using image recognition for traffic signs and lists Mapbox as a user.

------
yosito
Mapbox has some excellent software. And they're hiring. Sadly, they're moving
away from remote work, which probably eliminates a lot of good talent who are
also heavy map users.

------
solipsism
_" Every time you touch the map, the map is learning," Gundersen says. "It's
that flywheel."_

Curious quote. A flywheel stores energy. What does that have to do with a
system learning as it's used? Also curious phrasing. "That flywheel"? Which
flywheel?

~~~
napoleond
I suspect it is a reference to "The Flywheel Effect" espoused by business
author Jim Collins: [https://www.jimcollins.com/concepts/the-
flywheel.html](https://www.jimcollins.com/concepts/the-flywheel.html)

I'm not an expert, and I'm not sure that this in fact a valid interpretation
of that concept, but I know that it's a popular concept in certain business
circles.

~~~
cpeterso
Amazon is also keen on the "flywheel" terminology:

[http://www.samseely.com/blog/2016/5/2/the-amazon-flywheel-
pa...](http://www.samseely.com/blog/2016/5/2/the-amazon-flywheel-part-1)

------
kirchhoff
The era of mashups / cool web projects using Google Maps has ended. Their
recent 28x price change (from $0.50 / 1000 views to $14 per 1000) has been
cleverly disguised by the simultaneous rebranding to the "Google Maps
Platform".

~~~
edgarvaldes
I wonder how many of the projects showcased over googlemapsmania.blogspot.com
are just going to close the door.

------
rglover
Mapbox is a better product and a better development experience. It's also a
better styling experience. It's a great case study on the pursuit of quality
as a way to draw people in.

------
nik736
We started switching to MapBox some weeks ago, really liking it so far. There
are some quirks but one can see that a lot of things are happening at a fast
pace.

------
jordigh
I generally like Mapbox but I've had some problems with the quality of their
geocoding and still would get better results from Google's geocoding. It was a
pretty niche thing, though: mapbox doesn't have as many European postcodes,
but Europeans in several countries don't really treat postcodes with much
respect to begin with. In particular, mapbox has no Eircodes whatsoever.

~~~
juliangoldsmith
The quality of OpenAddresses' geocoding (which, I'd imagine, Mapbox uses)
seems to be a bit spotty here in the United States as well.

Google's entire advantage here is the amount of resources they've poured into
their data; nobody else has been able to match it so far.

EDIT: After doing a bit of poking and prodding, it does seem to be a lot
better than it used to be.

------
baby
We're using it for [https://www.citymayor.co](https://www.citymayor.co) and it
is getting expensive quite quickly (.5 for 1k page views), but the API is
really good and the themes are really pretty as well. I've tried playing with
open street map directly to create a theme and it was quite a mess.

~~~
lukeqsee
Check out one of the services that base their data on OpenStreetMap.

My company ([https://stadiamaps.com](https://stadiamaps.com)) does that.
OpenMapTiles ([https://openmaptiles.org](https://openmaptiles.org)) sells
vector tiles you can use. There a many more over at
[https://switch2osm.org/providers/](https://switch2osm.org/providers/).

------
nsx147
A bit tangential, but I have been unable to find a price-friendly static maps
provider for embedding in PDF and print. Anyone have suggestions?

~~~
lukeqsee
We would be happy to support this type of application! Please email me at
luke@stadiamaps.com if you'd like more information pertaining to your use-
case.

[https://stadiamaps.com](https://stadiamaps.com)

------
marricks
Surprising to see competition in a space that is so dominated by Google. I
hoped it’d be some open source endeavor, but seeing the link was Forbes I
shouldn’t have gotten my hopes up... that said competition and options is
good!

~~~
dmitriid
It's not surprising at all. Google have essentially built a moat that is very
hard to cross: [https://www.justinobeirne.com/google-maps-
moat](https://www.justinobeirne.com/google-maps-moat)

~~~
tallytalwar
Specific map rendering projects from mapzen:

Web Renderer:
[https://github.com/tangrams/tangram](https://github.com/tangrams/tangram)
Native/Mobile Renderer: [https://github.com/tangrams/tangram-
es](https://github.com/tangrams/tangram-es)

Native renderer can be accessed for android through gradle, ios through
cocoapods and even available on raspberry pi.

Scene file documentation: [https://github.com/tangrams/tangram-
docs](https://github.com/tangrams/tangram-docs)
[https://mapzen.com/documentation/tangram/](https://mapzen.com/documentation/tangram/)
(still seems to work :D)

Scene file authoring tool: [https://github.com/tangrams/tangram-
play](https://github.com/tangrams/tangram-play) Which continues to live at
[http://tangram.city/play/](http://tangram.city/play/)

One of the great features of tangram is to embed any glsl shader in the scene
file, which gets injected during rendering and "transforms" the map rendering
and the map experience to a all new level, giving the some great flexibility
cartographer/designer/developer will like.

As an example check this demo "tron" scene: [https://tangrams.github.io/tron-
style/#15/37.7926/-122.4003](https://tangrams.github.io/tron-
style/#15/37.7926/-122.4003) (source: [https://github.com/tangrams/tron-
style](https://github.com/tangrams/tron-style))

Tangram had some great consumer base including this amazing project called
StreetComplete
([https://github.com/westnordost/StreetComplete/](https://github.com/westnordost/StreetComplete/)).
Check it out and use it to improve osm street data.

Also mapzen's geocode engine Pelias, continues to live as geocode.earch, which
it out at [https://geocode.earth/](https://geocode.earth/).

Disclamer, I used to work for mapzen on the tangram-es (native rendering)
project and still supporting the project in the open source world (along with
other tangram-es developers).

If anyone interested has any questions, you can contact me @tallytalwar on
twitter.

------
bangonkeyboard
What are the stumbling blocks to self-hosting Mapbox?

~~~
butz
None. Start here:
[https://openmaptiles.com/server/](https://openmaptiles.com/server/)

------
ape4
Am I crazy, I can't see a live demo page.

~~~
efraim
You're not crazy. Go to products -> maps, click on one of the themes, click on
View live map. Like this one for example
[https://www.mapbox.com/maps/streets/](https://www.mapbox.com/maps/streets/)

It's like they don't want to show it.

~~~
EQmapbox
I love this thread. I have not one but two tickets asking we elevate the
actual maps - I'm going to tap it again! Stay tuned for a nice redesign
shortly that hopefully pulls them front and center.

Note - I work at Mapbox.

------
wodenokoto
How does it handle Japanese addresses?

I have a messy address list I would like to geocode, but not sure where to
turn

------
iagovar
How does mapbox compare to carto.com ?

~~~
mtmail
Carto is using Mapbox technology in the background. This blog posts explains
some differentiation on top [https://carto.com/blog/partnering-with-
mapbox/](https://carto.com/blog/partnering-with-mapbox/)

~~~
klokantech
Carto uses geocoding and routing services from Mapbox - but their vector and
raster map tiles are powered by OpenMapTiles. See:
[https://blog.klokantech.com/2018/05/openmaptiles-gives-
you-f...](https://blog.klokantech.com/2018/05/openmaptiles-gives-you-freedom-
of-sdks.html)

