

Sensationalism, over the top? - lux

We're sitting here eating up stories about Yahoo and Twitter, and we're ignoring stories or questions that have actual relevance to startup founders.  Why is that?  Please don't tell me YC and HN are reducing themselves to the intellectual tedium of sensationalist media, or disinterest for our core subject matter, which is the successful steps to starting startups?  We're reporting more about Yahoo than about startups these past few days... (which is abnormal compared to PG's essays or the best interests of YC).<p>We're starting a startup that will be profitable very quickly (a la David Heinemeier Hansson's Startup School speech) due to a dual subscription and content licensing model, but we've submitted a couple stories to YC/HN recently, which were almost immediately buried.  We really would appreciate help/feedback from others, and we can't see why the insight from this community wouldn't be valuable for others as well.  But my submission today didn't make the homepage or even within 160+ submissions of the home page within 2-3 seconds.  We were almost instantly reduced to worthless in the submission list, since we disappeared within seconds of submission...<p>Are we missing a step, or could the HN algorithm stand to be tweaked to improve relevance for startups as opposed to generic reddit-style stories?  If these types of stories are deliberately killed, then that leads to questions about the usefulness of the whole YC experience, since avoiding questions at such a low level really doesn't instill confidence at higher ones.  Although I've read PG's Hacker's and Painters, I'd like to see more out of the HN community if we're going to call it a communal success...
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pg
Though there may be too many stories about Yahoo, there's a simpler
explanation for the average submitter who's bummed because his stuff didn't
get a lot of votes: it wasn't as interesting to everyone else as it was to
him.

I don't see what you mean about disappearing within seconds of submission,
though. The 30th story on the new page is currently 5 hours old. That gives
submissions plenty of time to get voted up.

~~~
wheels
The current ranking scheme is such that just after submitting a story that it
only lives a few seconds on the front page, meaning that luck plays a big part
in if it ever gets its first upvote, and whether or not anyone notices it at
all. And for those of us that primarily browse via the RSS feed, most stories
never make it there.

Perhaps a side-bar on the front page listing the most recently submitted
articles would be nice so that they at least creep into the peripheral vision
of those visiting the front page.

I've started making a point to dig through the "new" page to upvote where
appropriate, but I suspect most readers don't bother.

~~~
pg
_The current ranking scheme is such that just after submitting a story that it
only lives a few seconds on the front page_

Not even a few seconds. A brand new story is only visible on the new page.

------
brlewis
I think pg is right that the problem isn't the algorithm, but people's
interests. I do share lux's dissatisfaction with what everybody else likes,
though.

Here's what interests me most:

    
    
      1. Things startups have actually done to improve their product or service.
      2. Things startups have actually done to understand customers better.
      3. Things startups have actually done to increase market share.
    

I respect that other people are interested in mergers, acquisitions, VC
funding, dividing equity, etc. These are valid startup topics. I'm just not as
interested.

I'm especially disinterested in abstract language/framework wars that aren't
tied to any particular application. I never feel like I've learned anything
from those discussions. I would be interested in a specific example of how
language X worked well for doing Y.

If somebody would keep up with the new page and comment on every story about
things startups have actually done, I would follow their comments and vote up
those stories.

------
thaumaturgy
Not everyone finds the same questions interesting or useful.

I found only two submissions from you, both 10 or 11 days old, so the current
mix of news on the front page isn't really relevant. In one case, as rms
notes, the question would've been better posed to an accountant. In the other
case, you never bothered joining in on the discussion, which is a good way to
kill a thread.

I definitely don't think there's cause for saying that HN has a glut of
'generic reddit-style stories', or that the discussion here is reducing itself
to 'the intellectual tedium of sensationalist media', just because the two
questions you posed didn't get any traction at the time. I would expect that
the archetypal successful entrepreneur wouldn't give up and cry foul quite so
quickly.

------
rms
Keep in mind that the mainstream media has mostly ignored and/or misunderstood
the Yahoo/Microsoft story. We are much better than the mainstream media. Have
you watched TV lately?

This is something that is very interesting to the majority of the audience
here, even if it is distracting from actually creating a startup. There is
nothing you can do to stop this discussion. We are discussing one of the
biggest things to happen in the history of Big Internet. Ask more interesting
questions if you want to engage the community, hackers are not interested in
accounting questions. Ask your accountant.

------
TrevorJ
When I played basketball in High School, we spent a lot of time talking about
the NBA. I think these stories are of interest because hopefully, some of you
will be sitting there with your own deal from MS in your hands someday, or
with scaling issues of your own due to the incredible popularity of your site.
Hopefully, at those points the insight regarding Yahoo and Twitter will become
extremely relevant.

------
bdfh42
It is my observation that the time of day (when you make your submission) is
very important. I have seen many a good link lost in a flood of (in my
opinion) dross. At quieter times new posts pause for sufficient time to
attract some attention - you need the first two or three votes to get to the
lower ranks of the front page and thus come to a wider audience.

~~~
rms
If you're posting something great during such a time of day, ask a friend to
vote for you. Yes, this is a slippery slope.

~~~
rms
Touchy subject?

------
ldambra
Someone (pg ?) makes a "Hacker News 2" portal up and running. Seriously, I've
seen this kind of stuff happen a couple of times before and it always works
fine. There is a need for something that cannot be solved in any other way :
less traffic.

From what I've seen before, this works like a charm. Everybody keeps up
visiting the main site, but the few that needs more focus start to feed the
second portal. Interesting stories of the second portal will get into the main
one, adding value to submissions. Win-Win.

Remember the early days of HN ? There is a need for this kind of environment
that disappeared when HN got popular. So make a second portal running,
announce it, and it'll take off slowly effortlessly.

------
aneesh
Gah, it's not like DHH invented the concept of profitability!! It annoys me
every time someone mentions they're being profitable "DHH-style". I enjoyed
his speech too, but you don't need to pay royalties to DHH.

------
axod
How about splitting things up into 2 sections?

"ASK" type comments, which are pretty much a forum. And a separate reddit news
type thing.

It seems like if these 2 things were separated, then what are essentially
forum posts, would have a better chance of a response.

~~~
rms
I am strongly in favor of the segmentation of this site but PG has said that
he intends to make one site that is the best list of links for hackers, not
one segmented site with different lists.

~~~
axod
Sure, but IMHO forum posts (ASK YC:) etc, are not really links. They're forum
posts - I'm not sure of the value added by lumping them in with news
stories/links/articles. By doing this, the forum posts don't seem to get the
attention they actually deserve.

Personally I think separating it and having a specific forum for startup
topics would really improve things.

------
edw519
You're right. Good stuff is constantly being buried.

Resubmit it. Tweak the headline somehow. Say something like, "Really need some
help..." or "Ask YC: How do you handle..." I, for one, would be glad to help
if I can.

This board is like a "mini startup world" in itself (although much more
sympathetic). Things go wrong. Things aren't fair. The world isn't quite
ready. Don't complain. Do something about it. Consider it practice for when
things really get unfair.

