
We Roam’s Death Stranded Its Customers Overseas, With No Refunds - rmason
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-12-03/we-roam-s-death-stranded-its-customers-overseas-with-no-refunds
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neya
I don't think these startups deserve sympathy. There's actually a handful of
these scams going on. I've seen heavy advertising of these type of startups
promising digital-nomad-work-from-anywhere lifestyle on Instagram and
elsewhere.

At first I thought that for a fixed sum they were going to supply you X
clients every month that would help you live those flashy digital nomad
lifestyles they show - laptop on a cruise ship and what not. But that wasn't
the case.

When I enquired one of them, they told me I need to deposit close to $10,000
first and they'll simply just arrange my travel plan for the next 3 months or
so.

Basically a travel agent business model and not even a good one at that. You
know what I did? I searched online for some decent local agents and asked them
to give me the best price for a travel plan for 3 months, and spent much less
than that $10,000.

A few weeks later, at a cloud conference, I bumped into one of their marketing
people. I shared with her my feedback and why I thought it was deceiving. Her
response? "Growth hacking" and I didn't even bother to exchange name cards. A
few weeks later, they were in the local media for alleged lawsuits against
them. And I was really happy.

I really, really hate these dishonest startups and I think they deserve no
sympathy. They aren't victims, their customers are.

Edit: typo

~~~
maxxxxx
That's a problem with "Fake it till you make it" strategies. Some get stuck at
the "faking" stage.

~~~
r00fus
There's a huge difference between "faking it" and "frauding it".

Lying that you are providing a real service or being overtly oblivious about
logical obvious outcomes of sunny day scenarios... that's way shady.

~~~
maxxxxx
I have read stories about now famous startups and some of them did quite
questionable things which they eventually corrected. they could easily have
gone the other way.

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brianbreslin
There are 2 interesting facts in this article: 1. They were sued for
name/trademark infringement by Roam (global shared living spaces), 2. They
were sued for theft of trade secrets by RemoteYear (ostensibly the same
business model). The article then talks about a huge % of their revenue was
going to those settlements.

I feel bad for the customers who got stiffed on this startup. I don't really
feel bad for the founders who built this company though.

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hartator
On another point, I wonder how it worked from a visa perspective.

My understanding is working for your day job from another country can be
tolerated, but it's usually outside of the law in most countries if you are on
a regular tourist visa. So having a business resolving around that seems
careless, as your customers might be subject to jail time and deportation.
Think about it, it makes sense that this is not allowed, it will be way too
easy to evade immigration laws if that was allowed on a massive scale.

~~~
isostatic
“Digital nomads”, like many modern “disruptive” industry’s, tend to ignore
pesky things like laws

Being found to be breaching your visa conditions, especially in a pre-
meditated way, is somewhat worse than being kicked out of an Airbnb.

Tread carefully.

~~~
toomuchtodo
I'm honestly surprised more "digital nomads" don't get caught at
customs/border control with the advent of government surveillance of social
media and LinkedIn.

CBP Agent: Purpose of stay?

Nomad: Pleasure

CBP Agent: _types_ It appears you work for a remote startup. Are you currently
working for them and/or do you plan on continuing to work within our country?

Maybe they let you stay if you're honest? Likely you're on the next flight out
and you incur the possibility of a visa blacklist.

Disclaimer: Have an associate who has been blacklisted from US entry due to
lying to CBP. Don't lie at border control.

~~~
coldtea
> _CBP Agent: types It appears you work for a remote startup. Are you
> currently working for them and /or do you plan on continuing to work within
> our country? Maybe they let you stay if you're honest? Likely you're on the
> next flight out and you incur the possibility of a visa blacklist._

More likely they could not care less, and welcome the money you'll spend in
the country.

Those "work" restrictions are for poor immigrants that they want to discourage
coming in (the kind you see on Mexican border and such) not for first worlders
with mucho dinero.

~~~
detaro
On the other hand, there's a bunch of stories about people traveling to
present something at a conference getting into trouble because that the border
guard said it needs a business visa of some kind. That's maybe different kind
of work, but also something one would think not that important.

~~~
ghaff
Because that’s clearly business, especially if you’re being paid or sponsored.
If you get a specifically tourist visa and then admit to being in the country
on business there’s probably going to be an issue.

If you're, say, a US citizen visas aren't required in a lot of cases and visas
on arrival often don't distinguish between business and tourism.

~~~
isostatic
ESTAs do differentiate between business and tourism. “WB” or “WT”.

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pjc50
A series of these is why the UK has
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_British_Travel_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_British_Travel_Agents)
: group insurance for travel agents against going bankrupt which guarantees to
un-strand people.

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rchaud
I do feel bad for the customers that lost money, especially those who paid up
and didn't even get to Destination 1 before the company went belly-up.

That being said, this sounds like a case of people who read aspirational
Medium.com articles, getting got by the type of people who write those
articles.

A business model that offers you the chance to seamlessly jet across different
countries, with your lodging and workspace already set up the moment you land?
I would think the logistics of such a business would need more local staff,
more money and more liability protection than what a few dudes could put
together with their savings and personal loans.

~~~
ghaff
I definitely take some trips where my approach is to pick a destination and
give someone a credit card number and say "Make it so."

But I got a weird vibe reading this article about effectively "digital nomad
as a service" sort of thing.

And, as you say, you're either just a travel agent--in which case, how much
value are you actually adding? Or you really are handholding and that requires
a lot of feet on the street. (And brings me back to this being some sort of
digital nomad as a service with guides. Which is OK I guess. But seems
strange.)

~~~
jermaustin1
It seems like they were the second, each group had 2 employees travelling with
them. Which isn't bad especially in countries you might not be familiar with
or speak the language.

~~~
ghaff
I get it. I have taken guided trips when I have either not felt comfortable
doing it myself, it was complicated/impossible logistically, or I just wanted
a group. Something about a guided year-long digital nomad experience just
feels odd though.

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joejerryronnie
If you can't figure out how to book a flight home, maybe the "digital nomad"
lifestyle is a bit too complex for you.

~~~
mreome
"I had set my life up and housing up to be gone for a year. I’d found people
to watch my dogs. And now I’m five months in. I can’t just go back."

I think the issue is more about the lack of refunds and sudden need to make
drastic life changes. These people had made a major commitment to a company
that folded, sure they can get home, but their lives are still in chaos. It's
a reasonable cautionary tale about making such a major life-changing
commitment based on the services of a startup.

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ghaff
That's quite the read. Though I would be really surprised that there was much
a market for people willing and able to be digital nomads for an extended
period _and_ wanting a company to handle all the details for them. It seems a
niche of a niche.

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torgian
Digital nomads.. it works for short term I think. But this is why I’m opening
my own business in Hong Kong. At least then, I have a business and an account
that clients can pay me through. And I’ll open a rep office in Taiwan, which
is where I’ll live. Yes I have to report everything to the US IRS, including
my own income. But I won’t be double taxed, I stay legal with local laws, and
I can still work remotely.

Just takes more effort. Anyone can do it, as long as you make enough money.
And it’s worth it in the long run.

~~~
InGodsName
Opening a bank account for Americans in Hong Kong is impossible.

~~~
torgian
No, just difficult.

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jlangenauer
Really, it's time we started to reevaluate the whole "limited liability"
thing. There's been numerous examples of people who start businesses, run too
close to the wind, and then push the cost onto their suppliers, customers and
employees (rather than the investors, who morally should wear the cost as they
will be recieving the gains).

~~~
TheOtherHobbes
Old problem. Using limited liability to scam customers, employees, and
suppliers is almost as old as limited liability itself.

Some individuals do it professionally. It's very hard - and expensive - to
prove bad faith and fraudulent intent. It's even more expensive for victims to
chase money owed even if fraud is proven.

There should definitely be more attention paid to directors/CEOs with a long
trail of insolvencies and legal challenges. Instead of informal consumer
reviews or nasty feedback on the BBB, it wouldn't be bad for every country to
issue businesses and individuals with their own business equivalent of a
credit (credibility) rating - one that's lenient on reasonable failure but
comes down hard on anything that looks like a pattern of premeditated scamming
and corporate legal trolling.

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qwerty456127
> What if you could live in Thailand and Indonesia and Australia and Croatia
> for $2,000 a month, all while keeping your day job?

I'd say this is too expensive, you can live for much less in these countries.

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rmason
I think WeRoam had a great idea, there was no shortage of customers. Here's
what I think they did wrong:

1\. Solve the legal issues before you take the first dollar

2\. Know your costs to the penny

3\. Watch cash flow like a hawk

Like to see someone try this again because I might be a future customer.

~~~
wgerard
> 1\. Solve the legal issues before you take the first dollar

Err, it actually seems like they _generated_ a lot of legal issues that they
could've easily avoided.

You should read the attached court documents from their fight with Remote
Year. It's pretty damning.

~~~
ac29
Link to court doc: [https://www.morganlewis.com/~/media/files/document/remote-
ye...](https://www.morganlewis.com/~/media/files/document/remote-year-we-roam-
plaintiff-memorandum.ashx)

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Digit-Al
Shouldn't companies like that be forced to have insurance so if things go
belly up customer's will at least be got home?

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dmitrygr
Move fast and break lives

