

It's me again, seeking advice. This time: Women. - alnayyir

So, I'm just going to go ahead and put myself out there for the heck of it.
Met a girl a few weeks ago, we really hit it off first night, then she ditches me for an older guy.
Met a girl last Thursday, AMAZING night. (No sex, it's just that we were incredibly compatible, she was a great cuddler, etc etc.) And she's ditched me for an older guy because he has money and quote, "that's what I need right now".
I'm furious and hurt. Everyone, guy and girl, has been hurt in some relationship or another, but I seem to be getting the short end of the stick from a moving average and from a career average perspective.
I have pretty much no chance at meeting any decent girls in town (Columbus, OH) because I don't go to school right now (no parents to cosign, so I have to save up the cash to return).
The two I did meet were via craigslist. I can't really afford match.com because I'm trying to put money away for tuition, as I mentioned. I could afford it, I'm just trying to get back into school ASAP.
I don't like bars, I don't like getting drunk, and I don't like the kind of women that troll bars, so that venue is out. Oh, and I'm 20 years old too.
Any ideas for meeting women who uh...have a soul? Any fellow yc'ers in Columbus? I just moved here in May and this is worse than that small town I was in before.
Thanks.
======
SwellJoe
Internet dating is interesting, because it re-arranges peoples priorities in
weird ways for both men and women. As you've seen, women, when given a
checklist of items that includes looks, hobbies, taste in
music/movies/literature, money, etc. will (consciously or otherwise) take
money as the most reliable indicator of the qualities that they consider most
important (confidence, primarily). I'm extremely surprised that younger women
are making the "money over other qualities" choice, though...in my experience
women in their twenties are still looking for other qualities than "good
provider" (like "rides a motorcycle", "has tattoos", "treats me like crap and
looks good doing it", which funnily enough are also proxies for confidence,
just expressed in a different and less productive direction). But maybe with
the economy in the shitter, priorities get more focused. I dunno.

Of course, it goes both ways, and women are not at all the only ones to be
made more shallow by the Internet dating thing. Men, when looking at a concise
snapshot of a woman look at the pictures, look at whether her answers are sexy
or not, check for fatness, and pretty much go from there. Things are tough all
over, and Internet dating is frustrating for women, just like it is for
men...maybe moreso, because women have to contend with the career Internet
daters: Guys who look good on paper, and are looking to get laid by as many
women as possible. There are a few women in this category, as well, but I
think they're operating a bit differently.

Anyway, there have been studies that have shown that as a mans salary
increases, women can overlook more and more negative qualities, like being
short.

But "make more money" is not really the ideal answer. As you've noted, the
women who are consciously making this choice are not women you want in your
life, particularly in your youth when you still want to have flexibility to
try new things--starting a company, for example, when you have people
depending on you is much harder and riskier, and it effects your decisions and
your ability to be "all-in" on a new business. So what is?

noodle is spot on: Meet more women in real life. Chemistry is a surprising
thing. Put yourself in the position to meet lots of new people--activities
like sports or theatre, volunteering, a part-time job working with the public
(bartenders meet a _lot_ of girls, though you've ruled out that type of girl,
but there are others: baristas do almost as well, record stores used to be a
great place to meet girls, but the record store is a dead and dying
model...maybe an Apple Store--something cool enough to not be "that guy that
works retail"). You'll be surprised by how many girls take a liking to you,
once you're interacting with them on a daily basis. For one thing, your
confidence goes up, and for another, chemistry has a chance to work up close,
where it has no impact on the Internet (and when you meet girls from the
Internet, odds are good there simply isn't any chemistry there--in real life
you'd know it before you ever even asked her out, because _you_ wouldn't have
liked her and she wouldn't have given you any signals that she liked you, and
you wouldn't have wasted your time or hers with a fruitless date and
conversation).

And, of course, self improvement is good, too. If you find yourself thinking
the only girls who have time for you are too chubby for your tastes, check
your own waistline and get in shape. If you find they're too dumb and poorly
read, make sure you're hanging out in places where folks are smart and well-
read and reading good books yourself. This is another weird side-effect of
Internet dating: You begin to think you need to find someone exactly like you.
Same books, same music, same movies, same hobbies, etc. And that's probably
not at all a positive thing. When you meet people in real life you don't know
what music they listen to, what books they read, and what hobbies they have,
until _after_ you've already discovered that you get a little flushed when you
see each other.

For what it's worth, on paper I'm epically unpopular with the girls--I tried
Internet dating and was monumentally disappointed by the results. I reckon I'm
just not very photogenic. But in real life, with face to face meetings, I've
found that about a third of the girls I'm attracted to are almost immediately
reciprocally attracted to me (even among girls I'd consider well "out of my
league" looks-wise). I'm not particularly wealthy (yet), and I'd never wear or
say anything to give off "wealthy" vibes (I wear plastic shoes from PayLess,
for example, and I've been told that a large percentage of women look at a
mans shoes right after his face), so it's not the money factor. But, I do
think confidence has something to do with it, and you don't need proxies for
confidence in the real world...people can immediately see if you're confident
or not.

~~~
alnayyir
Only on YC would I get so thorough and insightful a response. Thank you VERY
much for your time. You're exemplary of why I love this tight-knit community.
You guys are great.

I'm definitely following up on the real life angle. A second job in the areas
you recommended isn't sounding like such a bad idea other than that it'll be
hard to balance a full-time job along with a second job and school (in
future).

~~~
SwellJoe
The beauty of this kind of job is that they are throwaways. You don't put them
on your resume, and you don't care if the pay sucks, as long as the hours are
good for you, and you can leave when you've had enough of it. Since you'd
probably be willing to work weekends (since your real job keeps you occupied
during the week), you'll likely be able to take your pick...and since
everybody is more leisurely and chatty on the weekends, that is likely to work
in your favor.

If it were me (and I were your age), I think I'd try for a coffee shop,
bookstore, or Apple store, around the school. I've heard that bicycle couriers
are "swimmin' in women", but it seems like it'd be hard to get enough daily
interactions with women your age to make it worthwhile...I think maybe there's
some fantasy element at work there. It'd get you in great shape, though, so
it's got that going for it. Which is nice.

Also, don't rule out non-work type situations that get you into crowds.
Volunteering is a great option, for example. If the money isn't a big deal to
you, volunteering will crank up your real world karma, at the very least, and
that's always a win.

In any of these situations, you're _expected_ to be friendly and chatty and
you have numerous stock lines that always work and are not considered trite,
which helps with the introversion (I'm guessing you're an introvert, since
you've made it through high school and some college and don't really know how
to meet girls--I've been there). All you then have to do is hone your senses
for when the friendliness being returned is greater than the usual. I've
always been much better at detecting the cues in face to face conversation
than from across the room or in large group situations, perhaps it'll be the
same for you. And you'll get better at it every time you meet someone new.

~~~
alnayyir
I can talk to girls just fine, and I can talk to strangers, but I've just
ended up dating good friends or random girls from facebook/craigslist in the
past. My last ex was a random chick I got into a philosophical argument with
about nihilistic value on IRC.

I've just kind of had that sort thing "come to me" naturally. I don't know
what the "typical" means of meeting people are.

As for stock lines, I've never needed them, I just strike up conversation. I
had a job in sales a few years ago, it trained me to talk to complete
strangers without needing pre-rehearsed lines.

Coffeeshop and bookstore are sounding promising. Actually, I'll go do the
former now. Thanks for the advice.

P.S. I'm terrible at detecting cues, but face to face has generally been
better for me.

------
FunGus
WTF??? No one has stated the obvious yet, so here it goes...

You're telling me that you're 20, have essentially no disposabal cash, you're
NOT currently in college, and you're wondering why it's so hard to connect
with an attractive 18-24yo woman??? JEEEZ!

First of all, a guy your age shouldn't be trying to get into any sort of
extended relationship in the first place. That's insane. This is the age
you're supposed to enjoy the myriad delights of countless, nameless women.
Already done that you say?? Keep doing it. TRUST ME.

Second, you can't get "hurt" after a single date unless she bluntly calls you
a "fucking idiot." And then only if you're a pussy.

But let's say despite my first point you still insit on trying to find a girl
with soul...

Buddy, it's time to grow the fuck up.

Your financial situation is completely unacceptable to women unless you're a
student. You're not going to be able to land a quality woman based on your
guitar playing and fun attitude alone. Those days are gone. Women in this
demographic are getting MUCH better offers than what you've apparently got
going. This demo happens to be in very high demand by guys twith a lot more
going on than you do. And yeah, most of them are "older."

So, if you really want to pursue this, you're going to shuffle your priorities
around and START MAKING SOME MONEY! Or hell, if you have it stashed away start
spending some of it. And no, I'm not talking about buying better clothes or
cologne (though that's not a bad idea!). Instead, I'm suggesting that you take
whatever financial, physical or intellectual resources you have and make some
BIG moves-in the stock market, technology, IP, start-up, whatever. Use the
enormous energy of your youth to bust your ass 12 to 16 hours a day - or more.
(It's nearly impossible to do it after you're 30.)

Then, as your future takes shape, and money and purpose start flooding in,
finding a cool girl that wants to stick around will be EASY. In fact, if you
execute the next 10 years of your life correctly, your "problem" with women
will be of an entirely different kind.

And Jeez, one of your dates was kind enough to explain this right to your
face: "[money is] what I need right now."

By the way, I hope you don't take this as a FLAME. I'm telling you this
because I'm rooting for you. :-)

~~~
alnayyir
I have plenty of disposable income, I just save a lot of money. I just had my
business (I was self employed) crash after a two year run, and I'm cleaning up
the wreckage right now.

I'm going back to college fairly soon. I already have enough saved up to live
off of and pay a full year's tuition.

I don't play guitar.

My ex appreciated my personality just fine, actually, she loved me dearly, we
just couldn't work because of the obscene distance (Canada). I'm sorry if
being appreciated for who I am is too much to expect out of the average woman.

All I care about is money, it already is a priority. Hence, business that
recently failed. Hence, having plenty of money saved up.

That chica _thought_ I was poor. I live extremely frugally. My bank account is
just fine. her fault for being stupid. I could afford on my income to pay all
of her bills and food, all my bills and food, and all the bills and food of
one of my roommates, and still have one or two hundred left over for random
bullshit.

And that's not dipping into savings.

I'm planning on getting a nicer car, tbh. My car is too ugly. I hate to get
rid of something that 'works', but it's just so fuck-ugly that I've got to get
into a better vehicle. I was thinking about getting into more like an '02 year
car, rather than my 91' Olds.

I've been poking around for a second job. A second job would catapult me into
school in fairly short order. That or a car.

I'll start another business when the right opportunity or idea comes along.
Most of my best ideas require 100-150k. I don't have that much.

Not taking it as a flame, it's just that through no fault of your own, you
made some miscalculated assumptions about me.

I give off the appearance of poverty on purpose when in fact I have more money
in my bank account than my father who earns twice what I do.

If a relationship is to be a purely mercenary transaction then I'd rather be
alone or buy a wife from another country. I don't tolerate that kind of banal
materialism in my girlfriends.

Again, I had a woman who understand and shared my values and appreciated me
for who I am absent all other things. I don't see what's so hard about not
being a completely vacant cavity of a person.

------
raju
Hello there. I too am in Columbus, OH, and although I don't see eye to eye
with you (I am thirty, working full time), but I have to admit, I am surprised
to hear that you find it hard to meet someone.

IMO, Columbus is a very balanced city, in that there is a good mix of
students, young professionals, and everybody else. I would recommend what a
lot of the others have suggested, get out there, do something that interests
you in a social setting. Join a book club, go to a gym, study martial arts,
study at the library or a local coffee shop.

I have learned that familiarity is a good thing. Going to the same coffee shop
lets you to get to know the regulars. Its easy to strike up conversations with
people who come there often and have seen you a few times. I would go to
places where students hang out (places near the OSU campus like Grandview) is
a good choice.

If you feel like meeting up, drop me a line, email is in profile.

~~~
alnayyir
emailed you.

~~~
raju
alnayyir - I haven't gotten your email yet. Maybe you can put yours up (here
or profile) and that way I can keep an eye out for it.

~~~
alnayyir
my email is alnayyir at gmail dot com

Shoot me an email and we'll see how that works.

------
menloparkbum
Take a class where there are going to be a lot of women - yoga or hip hop
dancing are always good choices. These recently popular "adult kids' game
leagues" like kickball or dodgeball have good male/female ratios and seem to
have the underlying subtext of meeting potential dates.

Outside of that, it is hard to say without additional details. If you are
tall, dark and handsome you just need to get over your social anxiety and get
out there. If you're short, fat and ugly, you may need to strategize a bit
more. Either way, 80% of winning is showing up - you aren't going to meet many
people if you don't leave your house.

~~~
alnayyir
Not tall, not dark, and handsome...eh...I don't know.

Not especially short, not fat, and I don't think I'm ugly.

 _shrugs_ I'm quite horrible at sports. Well, dodgeball I might be able to do.

------
noodle
it sounds like you're going about things in the opposite direction. you don't
want to try to form a relationship before you really get to know someone.
leads to failure and poor self esteem.

it works best the other way around.

take up hobbies, be social, try something new, etc.. basically, get out there
and don't rely on the computer to do the legwork for you. don't chase after
every girl you meet, as it comes off weird and its not really the point. the
point is to make some new friends and expand your social circle. if this means
going to bars and having the occasional drink, do it even if you don't like it
-- doesn't have to be a regular thing. eventually you will run into someone
that peaks your interest. take your time, gauge the person, and then act.

or at least, thats my $0.02.

~~~
alnayyir
All I do is work-out at the Y, work, and study.

I can't think of a single activity that gets me out the door other than to
swap books at the library. Not really good venues for meeting people my age
around here.

Everyone my age either has three kids or goes to OSU. OSU kids only go to OSU
venues and bars.

(I have a serious aversion to bars. Bad experiences.)

Thanks for the advice though.

~~~
mechanical_fish
_OSU kids only go to OSU venues and bars._

I seriously doubt this. Even if only 5% of OSU avoids bars like the plague,
that's thousands and thousands of people.

Get ye to the Short North and find some coffeehouses. I know for a fact that
these exist.

There are also other universities near Columbus than OSU, hard as it is to
believe.

~~~
alnayyir
I guess I'll just start reading at the coffeehouse. This has been suggested
before and I have no idea how it leads to meeting people, but fair enough.
I'll give it a serious run.

~~~
noodle
by becoming a 'regular' at an establishment, the employees and other regulars
become familiar with you. these can be good starting points for new
friendships/relationships.

whats the difference in this and you taking a martial arts (example used
elsewhere) class together with a group of regular people? not too much. you
just interact less in a coffeehouse.

------
rms
okcupid is the best free dating site if you want to stick with that route

~~~
pius
Haven't used okcupid much for dating, but plentyoffish.com is pretty solid in
my experience . . . lots of Ohio people on too.

~~~
alnayyir
Tried plentyoffish. Everyone my age has kids or is a drunk on there. Eek.

~~~
SwellJoe
And, to keep it fair, everyone on OkCupid is "poly" and looking for a friend
on the side, or has herpes, or both. (At least one of the OkCupid developers
has been known to comment here on HN...and if he's around, I extend apologies
for the vicious and unfounded accusations.)

~~~
alnayyir
I've already noticed something along those lines. Jeeeesus.

