
Ask HN: What do you hate about finding a new job? - varunjuice
I&#x27;m trying to learn about a candidate&#x27;s perspective on recruiting.<p>+ What do you like and dislike about finding a new job?
+ What do you value when looking for a new job?
+ If you could change one thing about &quot;job search&quot;, what would you change?
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omnivore
The process for applying is laborious and sort of demoralizing. I mean, think
of it like a blind date in a lot of ways without the payoff of a really great
conversations that might lead to friendship. The best interviews often feel
fine, but the process requires you to expend a lot emotionally and you don't
really get that back most of the time even if you're offered the gig.

The salary comments are accurate, too. I don't expect a hard number, but want
to know where the range is though I tend to do my own homework and look that
stuff up because in my field it's usually findable.

I think the biggest deterrent is the application process. If I have to fill
out the official application AND send a cover letter/resume, it's a lot less
appealing and often times, I'm not going to do it. I totally get making it
more onerous to limit the number of applications, but...I think you can just
have shorter windows for hiring then rather than wasting a lot of time.

Lastly, being transparent about timeframes. Politics being what it is, I know
you can't always nail down dates, but giving people a sense of what they're
working with in terms of a week or three weeks to wait to hear something is
really helpful, especially if they're truly considering the opportunity with
you and not just using it as a hedge against the thing they really want.

~~~
cylinder
I'm morally opposed to requiring or preferring custom cover letters tailored
to the job being applied to.

I think people who demand this really are disconnected from the realities of a
job seeker. It's simply a ridiculous burden in an age where you must apply for
hundreds of jobs and almost all of them don't even make a single response to
your application.

If I'm ever hiring, I will not require a cover letter. I also believe that
candidates should be compensated for their time interviewing. As a graduate I
once had a very small employer literally interview what seemed like 50% of my
class for one single position. He spent over an hour talking to each of us,
mostly just conversing and looking for ego stroking. This is abusive in my
mind.

~~~
fsk
After sending out lots of resumes over the years, I noticed almost zero
correlation with making a careful cover letter, and whether they follow up
with an interview.

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byoung2
I wish more companies would be transparent about salary ranges in job postings
(e.g. more like CyberCoders -
[http://www.cybercoders.com/search/?searchterms=php&searchloc...](http://www.cybercoders.com/search/?searchterms=php&searchlocation=91367&newsearch=true&sorttype=salary)).
It is a waste of time going through the process of applying and interviewing
only to find out we are in different zip codes on compensation. There are a
few job search sites that have thankfully addressed this issue, and working
with a recruiter also helps.

~~~
varunjuice
This makes a ton of sense. Role and salary should be discussed up front, so
necessary conditions are established.

Follow up - what stops you, as a candidate, from discussing this upfront?

~~~
byoung2
_Follow up - what stops you, as a candidate, from discussing this upfront?_

It makes you look greedy. I am greedy, but it's bad form to appear that way.
In the same way you want sex on the first date, but you can't make that known
before the waiter has even taken your drink orders. That's why I like working
with recruiters (not the sex part)...the recruiter can get the ballpark for me
(or already knows it if the company is a client) and we can decide whether to
even pursue it.

------
fandawg195
Probably the biggest thing that ticks me off is hiring managers who don't even
know what they are looking for and as a result 'shop' thru candidates
essentially wasting your time. I've seen this before when I was rejected for a
position, and it got filled only to be reposted after 3 months. Go figure!

------
Blackthorn
Just went through a job hunt myself and here's what really stood out to me
about the process.

1) The sheer latency. This is by far the biggest annoyance. From first
contact, to phone interviews, to onsite, to decision...generally a month or
more passes. It's awful.

2) No up-front salary expectations. Have had so many job interviews that went
well and suddenly turned around when they were like "soooo...salary?" and they
were looking to get a senior engineer on the cheap. What a waste of everyone's
time. Compounded by the above bit about latency.

3) Literally any company that uses that horrible ICIMS system I will not even
bother applying anymore. I saw a number of job adverts looking for remote
engineers from Red Hat, Rackspace, Amazon (AWS division), and a few more. The
only way from the advert to actually apply was through that ICIMS system. This
_universally_ (not exaggerating) meant that I would submit my resume and it
would sit in limbo for 2+ months (Red Hat was the fastest, with a turnaround
time of 2 months). At this point, if a company wants me to apply through this
system, I just won't even bother with them. They'll need to contact me first
through a hiring manager, internal recruiter, or something similar so I can be
guaranteed the process will actually be started at all.

4) This one's a little more specific but consulting agencies that want to put
you on some of their contracts and never bother talking to you can go suck
eggs. A specific one had an "urgent need" (exact words) for a certain type of
engineer. I talked to the owner for a bit...I followed up for over _two
months_ with me instigating the conversation every time. At the end of the two
months I figured I would stop bothering and if they really needed an engineer
like me so urgently, they could initiate conversation with me rather than
having me constantly follow up with them to drag out details. Last I heard,
they were still looking for someone to fill the contract.

5) Anyone who wants to make you do some kind of "homework" (generally writing
a bunch of code) before you even get to a phone interview. Something that
takes half an hour is okay. The ones I've seen always take multiple hours. No.
Just, no.

6) This one is more of a general gripe but idiot startups think they can get
senior talent for cheap salaries and nonexistent equity. This has been the
case at every funding round (seed, series A, series B). It's practically a
joke at this point and in the past month has been discussed on HN ad nauseam.

~~~
varunjuice
Thanks. This is helpful. Given choice, would you apply directly or through an
internal referral?

~~~
Blackthorn
Internal referral but only because it at least guarantees that my resume will
actually be looked at and I'll get a response (see the ICIMS bullshit for the
other side of that coin).

------
m1k3r420
As someone currently on the job hunt I find it very frustrating to not even
receive acknowledgement of your application.

Failing that a polite, "Sod off" would be much appreciated when your not
successful as well!

~~~
phantom_oracle
Posting anon?

Treat them like they treat you.

You're just a bottleneck in the hiring managers process, so make companies a
bottleneck in your job process.

There may be some "holy-grail" of working at FaceGooOrStartup where you can do
"work you love", but after a while you realize that all work is balls and
you'd much rather not work at all (or run your own shin-dig).

Apply the technique of a "smart" spray and spread your CV gently across a
wide-enough net.

------
zhte415
As a hiring manager, working with other hiring managers, mainly on the
interview side:

Job description: Write it out. Hopes and expectations. Be honest when certain
experience doesn't really matter. Copy and paste general descriptions of the
team's responsibilities are not enough. Be specific where specific skills are
needed, and be general but guiding where job development paths are possible.

Speed: You're playing with people's lives. They depend on you for a job. Get
your responses out quickly, and don't insist on interview upon interview. If
you're not prepared enough in the initial interview to offer the candidate the
position after interviewing all other candidates (within a week), make sure
the second interview is for a well thought out alternate position. An
organization that has 3rd or 4th placed interviews has no respect for a
candidate, IMHO, or is poorly planned, or basically doesn't know what it is
doing.

Don't make it a competition with 2 to X people in the same room, especially as
some of who are in the room may know each other, or know of each other. You
simply don't know the relationships of the people seemingly competing
'independently'. If you need to test team work with elementary school style
tasks like how to a bridge out of 4 rolls of newspaper, and I don't think you
do, do it with the existing team and the candidate, and analyze the team as
much as the candidate.

------
bitshepherd
Just one thing? The whole process of the job search is tedious, painful and
just downright frustrating, and employers make it harder and harder because
reasons. Not to mention the whole dog and pony show that the candidate has to
go through just to even get a chance to maybe plead their case with someone
with hire/fire power.

Having been on both sides of the table, I don't like participating in either
process. It's broken all around, and the only solution is to burn it down for
the insurance money.

------
chrisbennet
I can't remember the last time I had a poor interview experience. I get to
talk with nice people, maybe learn something, etc. Afterwards, I tell my
friends that they should try to work there.

The pre-interview part of the job search for companies that don't use outside
recruiters leaves something to be desired.

Advice for companies trying to hire:

1) Remember that you will probably be hiring again - don't piss off your
future applicant pool because you don't need them for your _current_ position.
Treat them how you would like to be treated i.e. communicate with them even if
it is automated.

2) Post a salary range - If you want to know what range applicants are looking
for "so we don't waste your time". Post a range, problem solved. Oh, posting a
range will upset your current employees? Maybe you should pay your current
developers at the market rate.

3) Do the work. I realize that making candidates jump through arbitrary hoops
is an easy way to limit the number of resume's your hiring team has to look at
but don't be surprised if the best candidates go to companies that actually
put in the work (read the cover letters, look at the portfolios, talk to the
candidates, etc).

I would love to know how long a position has been open. I've seen job ads
running for months, possibly years. Obviously this wouldn't be in the interest
of the hiring companies. For a job searcher it would be a way to weed out the
companies that aren't going to hire anyone.

------
wavesounds
1\. Being asked to code things on a white board or shared online doc that the
interviewer knows are hard just so they can watch you sweat. It's just testing
how well you perform under pressure, not if you know how to program well or
not. Candidates should have the option to code without someone breathing down
their neck if they prefer.

2\. Not being up front about how many hours people actually work. In my
experience, everyone lies about this. Companies claim they work 40 hour weeks
but really work 60+ with time expected at home and on the weekends. And their
"unlimited vacation" time really means "no vacation time". You shouldn't have
to wait to start the job before finding out the answer to this question. That
kind of bait and switch leads to resentment.

------
alok-g
What I dislike: Going through the typical interview processes where the
outcome seldom correlates with the job performance that the interview process
is there to predict. Far from predicting job performance from an interview, in
most cases they cannot correctly estimate job performance even from the
employee actually performing the job. While failing to understand true job
performance of their own employees, they still trust them with conducting
interviews which is a different skill altogether.

------
fsk
Asking candidates to take a 1-10 hour test or assignment before you even talk
with the hiring manager.

I already have a job and don't have the time to waste.

------
MichaelCrawford
To be honest, the thing I hate the most about recruiters, is they don't read
my resume from beginning to end.

Next in line to that are hiring managers who don't believe I have any
experience in a skill that I have a great deal of experience with, such as a
Nike manager who thought I didn't know how to write Mac OS X applications,
despite my having been an Apple developer since 1986.

