
Ask HN: Telling my boss about a Headhunter - peterburkimsher
I work for a tech company in Taiwan. My boss is a good friend who I&#x27;ve known for 7 years.<p>On Sunday night, I got an email from an Engineering Director of a very famous company, asking if I want to meet them to talk about work.<p>My current job actually doesn&#x27;t keep me busy enough, so I do many personal projects in addition to my corporate work. I know my skills could be used well at the Famous Company. I wrote back to tell the Famous Company about several personal projects I did that might interest them. They were pleased.<p>I also said that I want to tell my boss about the conversation. I just signed a contract for all of 2018, but I could ask my boss about doing some part-time work earlier on a contract basis.<p>The Famous Company says that it would be unusual to introduce my boss, I&#x27;ll need to sign an NDA if I want to talk about actual projects, and they offered to have a video chat instead of meeting in real life.<p>I feel uncomfortable &quot;flirting&quot; with a Famous Company if I can&#x27;t also tell my boss. If a pretty girl tries to seduce me, I will tell my girlfriend about the incident.<p>This also seems to be a cultural difference. See &quot;Connections and contacts&quot; in Yang Liu&#x27;s photos.<p>http:&#x2F;&#x2F;bsix12.com&#x2F;east-meets-west&#x2F;<p>It would be a dream to work for the Famous Company. I know they&#x27;d pay at least 10x my current salary. But I want to be loyal and maintain good &quot;關係&quot; (guanxi) with my boss here, and money doesn&#x27;t buy commitment.<p>If I tell my boss, he knows I&#x27;m under-utilised, and maybe he will want me to go to the Famous Company. But then the Famous Company will be angry because I told him. So then both of them don&#x27;t want me.<p>If I reject the Famous Company, I might lose an amazing opportunity. I want to be friends and build 關係 with them too, because I will be available in 2019.<p>The only person I told about this whole thing is my girlfriend. (not even my parents yet).<p>Who should I tell, and what should I tell them?
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chrisbennet
Your situation/culture sounds so foreign to my American ears that I can’t give
(good) advice and I would be cautious taking advice from other people with a
very different culture from yours.

In the US, we aren’t contracted to a company and thus we can be let go, or
leave, at any time. We tend to have little loyalty to a company because, with
some exceptions, companies generally don’t offer us much loyalty. We also (in
tech) tend to work for many companies in our careers. Early in our careers we
discover that we are responsible for our own careers and frankly, I think a
lot of us like this more independent arrangement.

For myself, I always found it easier to just give myself a raise by going to
another company that valued me more (or was will to pay the market rate) than
to work 20% longer hours just get a 3% raise for my efforts.

~~~
peterburkimsher
I agree that this is all about culture.

To make it even more interesting, the Famous Company (multinational) recently
expanded their business by buying a local company, and I think that's why
they're interested in hiring people who have experience working in both
countries (me).

The name of the Famous Company would look amazing on a résumé, and it would be
really exciting to work for them.

But I'm not motivated by money or fame. I need years of continuous relevant
work experience to help with my visa applications.

I wish I can find a way for everyone to benefit, and maintain trust with all
the people involved.

~~~
codegeek
"I agree that this is all about culture."

Not just about culture but also legal. In the US, most states have employment
at-will which means employers can fire an employee anytime without any notice
and vice versa. Of course, exceptions are there for things like discrimination
but you still have to prove it. In the US, a lot of states do not require you
to provide any benefit to your employees other than a salary if you are a
small enough business.

In many parts of the world including Asia/Europe, employers cannot just fire
someone (with exceptions in extreme circumstances like a crime) and employees
cannot leave immediately either. 90 days advance notice is very common.

------
siamtheman
I think that maybe you have talked to much already. Meet with Famous Company
and get a firm offer. Tell them of whatever notification period will be
necessary to terminate your 2018 contract. The contract you signed will have
the required amount (days) of notification needed before you quit. Your boss
is not your friend, he may be friendly and a great guy, but unless you are
married (almost in your case) to his daughter, this is work, a job. I know
this because I was a Boss for many years, if I liked you then I would have
said exactly the same thing as he did, you need to move on, because I can't
pay you what you are worth. If you have been there seven years it's time to
move up in the world anyway. Tell Boss how great it was working there with him
and how you will miss working at the company. I say it this way because you
seem to be young. It is difficult to tell when loyalty is due or when self-
interest is the best move. Perhaps a better way of looking at this would be to
think of this as more of a overdue promotion. So now is the time to go for the
glory (and money). Also you will learn many new things, things that will help
you later when you move even further up the latter. I read that most people
have 3 - 7 jobs (full-time) in their lifetime, so you are right on course.

~~~
peterburkimsher
I'm 28 years old. I did a summer job for my boss's startup company in 2010,
but then he invited me back to work for his other company in 2014. I've now
been here for 3 years, the longest I stayed in any country.

You probably have a country, a home, a stable safety net where you can always
go back to. I don't.

My hope is to get the qualifications for Permanent Resident status somewhere.
The fastest is New Zealand, which needs only 2 years for the Skilled Migrant
Category. But they also need 3 years continuous relevant work experience.

I finally have the work experience, but my girlfriend wants me to stay in
Taiwan for one more year, and I want to be with her. I'm also really worried
that when I choose to move on, if I burn my bridges, I won't be able to come
back. I like my quiet stable life here, and I'm a little disappointed that my
boss wants me to leave in 2019, even though I do agree that I should try to
settle elsewhere.

Moving to the Famous Company would mean moving city as well, which would
affect my relationship with my girlfriend. She's more important than my
career.

~~~
siamtheman
Ah.. you left out a lot of important parameters on the initial query. You
nailed me - I do enjoy all the privileges, home, wife, pay checks. My son is
two years younger than you are, working on a masters computer engineer. So now
the real important things appear, citizenship - girlfriend, Both are very
important to you so these are now the determining factors for your decisions.
1\. Forget Famous company, you can't live without the girl. 2\. 2019 go to New
Zealand and get your citizenship.(w/girl) This is what you want, right? so now
this is the plan, every small and large decision you make should move you
toward this outcome. Everything else is noise, twist it and turn it over if it
can't be converted to your goal then discard it.

~~~
peterburkimsher
Famous Company could help me reach my goal. Having the Famous Company name on
my résumé would increase my chances of getting job offers in future, whichever
country that would be in.

If they really wanted, Famous Company has a lot of money. They could buy
citizenship for me and my girlfriend at a cost of $250,000 USD each. Then I'd
be able to work for them anywhere.

These parameters are personal though, not job-interview criteria. It's about
relationships, friendships, trust, and life goals. "Networking", in the social
sense.

But if Famous Company doesn't want me to tell my boss, I feel like they don't
respect that social network. I'm committed to being a good boyfriend,
employee, and foreign resident.

I'd like to make friends with the person from the Famous Company, and build a
connection with them too! Maybe stay longer in Taiwan to work for the Famous
Company in 2019, or apply for their jobs in another country. I just don't want
those communications to disrespect my existing commitments.

~~~
siamtheman
It sounds like you know the life codes pretty good, Maybe the girl will move
with you to work at Famous Corp in 2019? It might take a ring to persuade her.
I lived in Taiwan 3 years as a teenager, I loved the country, so I know a
little about living there. At 27 there is still plenty of time to get
everything ready for what will be your future. So as long as there is a plan
it will work out for you. I think that maybe Famous Corp doesn't want you to
tell the Boss because it is actually their way of saving face for "poaching"
you or they don't wish to get entangled with your present employer. It is
actually pretty standard procedure, whats different is that you are actual
friends with your boss.

The main problem seems to be ,should I tell my boss now... because he is your
friend the only answer is yes. anything less will likely haunt you for years.
Famous Company does not need to know who you told about their offer, so do not
tell them. Tell the boss now, then go get the offer, with a solid offer in
hand ask the girl what "we" should do, then ask boss what he thinks. I'm sure
that whatever advice they give will be better than anything else you will
find.

------
vfulco
US-centric perspective after 25 years on/off Wall Street often working
ridiculous hours and now working for myself overseas for 2+ years. Be a
mercenary, all the smarties and C-suiters (senior executives) do it. Companies
in the US ask for their pound of flesh so be sure you are paid accordingly.
Compensation schemes for elites in companies are heads I win huge, tails I
lose and still walk away with a big pay package, enough to live on for years.
So learn to play their game fast. Your loyalty is to provide for your family
in the best manner possible and not kill yourself in the process. When
downturns come due to the global economy, industry issues or company/strategic
mis-steps, you can bet loyalty has zero value in the equation.

~~~
peterburkimsher
When inflation comes, the money that should last for years is spent within
days.

Right now I'm still not married, so I have no obligation to provide for a
family. When I do have a family though, then I want that to be a permanent
commitment.

"Is cheating in a relationship always wrong?" is a question I asked several
women during my single days, and I was very surprised that the answers I
received were not all consistent. My opinion is strongly that it's wrong, so I
could immediately know that I couldn't trust those women for a relationship.

------
muzani
Asian millennial here.

I think you're stuck between two very difficult choices. I had to do a very
similar choice before - continue working for a family friend or take the route
with career growth. Usually people also feel some loyalty to an old boss
because they were also a mentor.

But try not to just think about yourself and your boss. Or even your
girlfriend. As this decision also affects your income, it could provide you
and your family a better life.

Ask yourself: "Which choice would benefit society more?"

Which of the two choices would benefit more people overall? This is also a
good way to estimate which would be more profitable or a better career.

The startup could have the potential to have a very big impact, or it could
just remain a really small company that doesn't affect many. Similarly, the
Famous Company might be affecting people all over the world, but how much
impact would you really have in it? So I would just pick the utilitarian
decision as the more moral one.

Your personal projects could also be another factor, as they could be
beneficial to society. Which decision would let you work on them more?

~~~
peterburkimsher
I'm not yet at the point of a job offer from the Famous Company. It's just the
question of meeting them privately, or telling my boss about it also.

The extra income would be nice, but money doesn't solve my citizenship issues.
(unless they give me half a million to buy a passport).

Working for the Famous Company would use more of my skills to help a lot more
people. I'm also quite confident that as the big multinational completes their
acquisition of a local company, there will be cultural issues like this one,
and they need people who are aware of both cultures. I could be very helpful
to the Famous Company if I maintain my morals and teach colleagues there about
them. Compromising my morals in order to get the interview seems like the
route where everyone would lose.

My personal projects are things I can talk about freely in any interviews in
future. I think the Famous Company would give me time to work on them, but
also keep them as their own IP and not let me self-publish. I've tried
publishing them here though (see my Show HN) and my biggest issue is marketing
- something the Famous Company could help with.

I have another friend at the Famous Company, and I wonder if I should ask him
how to proceed. So far I've only told my girlfriend, my mum, and this
(anonymised) thread. I don't want to overthink it when I haven't been offered
a job yet. But however I proceed, I want it to be with a clean conscience.

------
eesmith
So hey, what would have happened if you hadn't responded right away on Sunday
but waited until Monday, talked to your boss, and then replied to Famous
Company?

They wouldn't have known. Their message didn't say "you are obligated to keep
this secret". And even if it did, you have no such obligation.

If you want to make the seduction analog - which I don't think is the right
one - then Famous Company flirted with you, you responded, and now they are
using your response as blackmail to control what you do.

Why do you even need to tell Famous Company that you have talked with your
boss?

I think you should say that you just signed a contract for all of 2018 so you
need to talk with your boss to get an idea of what free time you have during
the 2018 period before taking on other work.

They want to do things under NDA, so your argument might be that you want to
figure out your availability before signing the NDA, to help limit needless
information disclosure. (Eg, if they have a project which requires 6 months of
work but you only have 3, then there's no reason for them to tell you about
it.)

BTW, I'm a Westerner. Don't read all that much into those infographics. For
example, stereotypical German punctuality ("the West" in those graphics) is
not the same as stereotypical Latin punctuality.

In my experience it isn't uncommon for employees to use poaching attempts like
this for negotiation power. That is, you could go to your current boss and say
that Famous Company is looking to hire you, in hopes that your current boss
would raise your pay or promote you. And if that happens, then go back to
Famous Company to see if you can get an even higher offer.

This can be done in both good and bad ways. You should be aware that some
people play this game, so bosses on either side might be sensitive either to
you playing that game, or them thinking that that's what you are doing.

But I don't think that telling your current boss - who already lets you do
some part-time work - that you have the opportunity to do more part-time work
for Famous Company, is part of playing that game. That won't start until they
ask for more time than you have to give them. And you don't know how much time
that is unless you talk with your current boss.

~~~
peterburkimsher
Thank you for sharing your thoughts!

My boss isn't punctual with his emails. My reply to Famous Company said that I
just signed a contract for 2018, but they still wanted to meet during a
business trip in January. I'm busy during working hours, obviously, but I'm
confident that I can ask my boss and get permission to leave the office to go
and meet them. I feel uncomfortable not telling my boss though, because he's a
friend.

BTW, I grew up in Geneva and my parents are British, but I've had more work
experience in Asia. Ironically, the person pursuing me is an Asian-American.

The Famous Company isn't trying to blackmail. They didn't actually say "NDA",
they said "significant legal paperwork... protects both parties". I don't care
about a promotion, I just want a stable job. I know that in 2019, my boss
wants me to move on (he already told me). I want to make sure I do this
honestly, maintaining friendship with my boss, instead of sneaking behind his
back and slipping out of the office unannounced.

~~~
eesmith
My use of the term "blackmail" was related to them expressing possible
negative consequences for you telling your boss about your conversation, and
in the context of "seduction".

When they sent their first email, they had no idea of if you would immediately
go to your boss/friend to discuss things. Only when you told them of the
possibility did they want to control what you did.

It's best not to think of this as seduction, or in the context of a pretty
girl flirting with you. It's a company looking to hire your services, when you
already have obligations.

Tell your boss. Don't tell Famous Company. If Famous Company asks you if you
talked with your boss, say "of course I did - I want to make sure that I could
take time off to meet with you without disrupting things at work."

The only reasons I can think of for Famous Company to have you not talk with
your boss are 1) they are poaching you so they can compete with your current
company, and 2) they don't want your boss to offer a raise.

Yes, you say you don't care about a promotion. But they don't know who you are
or what you want. It's to their benefit for someone like you to be left in the
dark about what your options are.

~~~
peterburkimsher
Thank you. I'm so happy that there's opposite advice coming from you and
siamtheman's top-level comment.

Whatever I finally choose to do, I'm pleased that there's a variety of
perspectives here on HN. Cultural diversity is a wonderful thing.

------
siamtheman
You have already talked too much, tell current boss goodbye, ask famous
company when do you want me to start work . This is how life works, a real
friend will tell you now is time to move up in the world. Siam

~~~
peterburkimsher
My boss is first and foremost a friend. After knowing him for several years, I
started working for him.

I think it would be rude to hurt the friendship by just saying goodbye.

My boss thinks I can do better so he wants me to leave in 2019 anyway. I just
don't want to go around interviewing before then, without telling my
boss/friend.

~~~
ricksharp
If he wants you to go do better, then he should be happy for you to go now
when you have the opportunity.

I would tell him about it and I'm sure he will have a favorable response. Help
him make a good transition and find someone to replace you.

Oh and it's non of the other company's business what you say between you and
your friend. Don't tell them anything about it, it's not ok for them to even
ask.

------
kelnos
The cultural differences between working where you are and for a western-style
company can be significant, to be sure, and if you choose to pursue a job at a
western company you're going to have to find some sort of compromise between
the two.

I wouldn't worry too much about Famous Company not wanting you to talk to your
current boss about it. Certainly you can't tell your current boss anything FC
tells you that is confidential, but merely telling your current boss that you
are talking to FC, and any non-confidential bits about the opportunity, is
frankly none of their business. I can understand that FC doesn't want your
current boss to be involved directly while you talk with FC (that's normal),
but I doubt they care who you discuss your opportunities with (again, as long
as you don't discuss any of FC's confidential information).

But I'm not sure any of that matters yet; from some of your replies in this
post, I think it's pretty clear what you want to do. You want to be with your
girlfriend, and that means staying where you are for at least the next year.

So, realistically, you couldn't accept an offer from Famous Company if they
were to give you one in the next few weeks, and still do what seems to me is a
higher priority to you.

I think it's fine to talk to Famous Company, but don't lead them on: be clear
that you're not looking for new employment outside of your current city right
now and that you may not be available for work until 2019. If they still want
to talk to you, great. If not, I'm sure they'll be pleased that you were
straight with them and didn't waste their time. A year from now, you might
contact them and they may still be open to talking to you (they might even
suggest this to you!). If your work impresses them now, I'm sure it will still
impress them a year from now, and maybe more, as you gain more experience.

Regarding not burning bridges, that's a good instinct to have, and I think you
have the right idea. Don't force yourself to act toward your existing
connections in a way that makes you uncomfortable or makes you feel like it
would make them uncomfortable, even if you think it's what a future company
will expect. I'm not that much older than you (I'm 36), but I can attribute
the majority of success in my life to the connections I've made and maintained
over my professional career. Connections can always help lead you to new and
better things. If a requirement for pursuing a new opportunity is that you
have to treat your connections poorly, maybe it isn't such a great
opportunity.

With that in mind, if you _do_ decide you want to pursue something with FC
now, absolutely feel free to talk to your current boss. From your description
it does seem like he has your interests in mind, and you shouldn't keep things
secret from him if you don't feel like that's the right thing to do. FC has no
business in how you deal with your current employment; I don't see how they
would get angry about you talking to your current boss about the opportunity
with FC. You also have no obligation to tell FC that you've talked to your
boss about it, at any rate. You shouldn't introduce your current boss to the
people you talk to at FC, and your boss should not be involved with your
discussions with FC. A western company would indeed find that very strange.
But that doesn't keep you from talking to him about it privately.

Regardless of what you end up deciding, best of luck!

~~~
peterburkimsher
Regarding the "current city", there is a little flexibility. It's only 50 km
to the nearest Famous Company branch in Tainan, like San Francisco to San
José. I go there every week anyway to study Chinese.

I think I found a solution, though.

I'll email my boss first. But I won't tell him anything. Instead, I'll ask him
a question!

"When should I start looking for jobs for 2019?"

That way I'm not breaching anybody's trust, but I still get an answer that can
direct my practical actions. I'll also tell Famous Company whatever he
replies. According to you and others, they shouldn't be angry by that. I'm
probably overthinking, but I like how it's gone from being a dilemma to a
cultural and moral lesson.

~~~
kelnos
Yeah, I'm wondering if there was a miscommunication between you and FC on that
particular point: I cannot imagine a company caring at all who you are talking
to about the fact that you're talking to them. You really don't need to tell
FC anything about your conversations with your current boss.

