
The Evolution of Pleasure and Pain - dnetesn
http://nautil.us/issue/56/perspective/antonio-damasio-tells-us-why-pain-is-necessary
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tremendulo
Pain and pleasure may not be as distinct as common sense assumes. The purpose
of both seems to be to draw one's attention.

A simple example would be eating chilli which is painful the first time. After
one has learnt to enjoy it then the experience becomes pleasurable.

More controversially perhaps is when I stub my toe these days. Instead of
yelling and hopping around the room I try to transfer as much of my attention
to the affected toe as I possibly can. I won't say it feels exactly nice now
but it's a heck of a lot better than when I was a kid trying to distract
myself from the pain.

It seems plausible that if one could get very proficient at paying attention
then the experience might be comparable to a highly intense pleasure (a
pleasure _too_ intense to be comfortable, at least to begin with).

~~~
WalterBright
> chili

More precisely, peppers get their flavor from stimulating the pain receptors
on the tongue. Somehow, this morphs into pleasure.

~~~
chongli
Probably has something to do with endogenous morphine.

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incompatible
>How does consciousness emerge out of nerve cells? Well, it doesn’t. You’re
not dealing with the brain alone.

I'm not sure that this gives any real insight. Perhaps some other types of
cells in the body are also involved in creating consciousness, but then the
question is "How does consciousness emerge out of cells?".

Saying the brain is "just a computer" understates the complexity of computers
with arbitrary software. Just because the brain (and any other cells involved)
isn't implemented as a simple Turing machine, it doesn't follow that it does
anything that couldn't be alternatively implemented using a simple Turing
machine.

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Afforess
I dislike the title here: Pain isn't necessary. The path evolution took - why
pain exists makes sense - but the author's statement in the title is absurd.

I can easily imagine a future where we have obsoleted pain as a communication
channel. Pain is a neurological version of a healthcheck system and not even a
particularly good one; it's slow, has no off or way to silence false reports,
and lacks context. Pain doesn't tell you what the problem is; only that there
is a problem. Any engineer who had to deal with such a low-bandwidth protocol
would be complaining about it loudly.

Pain is not necessary. And I hope it is replaced soon.

~~~
fest
I'd argue having an easy way to snooze the alarm would lead to more health
damage than dealing with acute pain promptly (i.e. burst appendix is something
you really need to take care of now, not when it's most convenient).

However, I agree on having an off switch for chronic pain would probably be
better than what we have now.

~~~
NeoBasilisk
As someone who has dealt with chronic nerve disorders for the better part of a
decade, I can tell you that numbness is preferable to raw chronic neuropathic
pain.

~~~
weego
Counter point from my perspective as someone with a sports related spinal
injury is that pain is an essential proprioceptive device allowing me to keep
active within the boundaries of my injury.

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martin1975
I see pain and suffering as the necessary tools for carving out meaning in our
own lives.

~~~
freedomben
I would agree, but I carve a giant exception for chronic, relentless pain.
After developing a condition with chronic pain, it's a constant struggle
deciding whether to continue to exist or not. Any benefit of meaning is lost,
and there is only misery and darkness from which you cannot escape. Modern
medication can provide relief, but these days it's a battle to even get that
because we have decided that the risk that somebody might "get high" is worth
allowing people to suffer.

In related comment, the trend of medical professionals (let's be honest, it's
politicians and lawmakers primarily driving it) to ignore and turn their backs
on chronic pain patients is comparable in my opinion to allowing torture to
continue. Internal wounds are just as real as external wounds, but humans
typically only acknowledge in others what is visible. We pity the man with no
legs, but we disregard the man with paralyzing and crippling pain.

~~~
tachyonbeam
I agree with you. In my opinion, people turn their back on chronic pain
because, just like with depression (or other mental health conditions), it's
something they can't see or measure. They have no idea what it's like to be in
your shoes. Most people have never experienced it, so they don't really have
any kind of reference.

I would argue that chronic pain is an evolutionary "bug", similarly to eczema,
psoriasis, peanut allergies, and chronic depression. Most people can probably
understand the notion that there are plenty of minor genetic issues that we
all are affected with. I have a friend who has a sensitive stomach, she
routinely feels sick and vomits. People understand that we all have unique
genetics, but they somehow have a hard time understanding that we all have
unique brains and nervous systems. I think the current political climate might
be partially to blame: it's almost taboo to suggest that our brains are, in
fact, unique, that we don't all experience the world the same way, in large
part because of our genetics.

Biology is quite fragile. Humans have about 20,000 genes. Each one of these
genes exists in multiple variants in the human population. You are a random
combination of subsets of your parent's genes. We've evolved in such a way
that most combinations of genes work reasonably well together. However, it
shouldn't be so surprising that some random combinations of genes do not, in
fact, work well together, and give rise to "genetic bugs". It shouldn't be so
hard to conceive that it's possible that some people are made in such a way
that they are more sensitive to pain than others. Maybe the regions of their
brains that handle pain are hyperactive, maybe it's something in their nerves,
maybe it's their pain sensors that fire too much. We don't have the medical
technology to really assess these things, but that doesn't mean they can't
exist.

~~~
photojosh
> it's almost taboo to suggest that our brains are, in fact, unique, that we
> don't all experience the world the same way

We can only hope (and work towards) that will change. Of all the things I've
read in the last year, Andy Clark's "Surfing Uncertainty" [0] has most changed
my view on the experience of being.

You can read a synopsis at the link, but my quick take is that its core
premise is that based on the totality of our life experience, our brain
creates models of the world and our interactions with it. Our everyday
experience of the world is then the interaction between what our brain
predicts will happen from the model, error corrected via our sensory input.

So yes, everyone is unique and experiences the world differently. Where this
is relevant to pain is realising how much of pain is in our head (so to
speak). I started thinking about this originally when I was trying to work out
why I would voluntarily put myself through the "pain" of long-distance
running...

[0] [https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25823558-surfing-
uncerta...](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25823558-surfing-uncertainty)

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maxxxxx
My girlfriend has chronic neuropathic pain. Like everything else in life,
moderation is key. Some pain is useful but too much of it is not a good thing.

~~~
fapjacks
I lived for some years with incredible chronic back pain. It really is a kind
of nightmare. If you're lucky, your doctor will give you something addictive
and dangerous for a bit of temporary relief. But more probably, it's just a
burden you're expected to shoulder and get on with your life.

~~~
verteu
As someone in a similar situation, how were you able to get rid of it?

~~~
fapjacks
For me it was muscular and joint issues. Initially, it was a combination of
steroid injections and kratom for the pain (a TENS unit also helped). I had a
very good friend of mine die of opiate overdose and get really skittish at the
thought of an opiate prescription for pain management. Also, opiate
painkillers make me very lazy and totally kills my ability to focus -- a death
knell for a programmer -- while the kratom keeps my head clear and my
motivation up.

Those things combined allowed me to start working out every day, both cardio
and weightlifting. I also began seeing a physical therapist at the VA
regularly. Finally, I also worked at a company that generously bought standing
desks for those that wanted them. That allowed me to strength train my way out
of the muscular issues. I still do deal with joint pain, but I found it _much_
easier to deal with by itself. On bad days I take kratom to help with the
pain, but those are far and few between nowadays.

