
Gut directly connected to brain, by a newly discovered neuron circuit - everybodyknows
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/09/your-gut-directly-connected-your-brain-newly-discovered-neuron-circuit
======
theprotocol
Dozens of doctors over the years have rolled their eyes at me whenever I
reported that my excruciating migraines were connected with flare ups in
intestinal pain.

Many would make passive aggressive remarks like "What?... Maybe you should
have a psychiatric evaluation." At one point I decided to trust them and go
along with it, resulting in years of medication and dealing with withdrawal
symptoms upon deciding to quit, which they claimed did not exist at all and
that I was making it up.

I am happy that numerous studies like this one continue to vindicate all the
things I reported to doctors over the years, although it is likely that the
arrogant doctors continue to lack the introspection to realize what they did
to me and many other patients, and thus admit nothing, in spite of the
increasing evidence that they were flat out wrong.

~~~
ilove_banh_mi
Unfortunately medical doctors are not scientists. They do not collect new
evidence, they just try to fit their observations (the symptoms) in the
straight-jacket of the catalog of drugs or surgery they are aware of (the
cure). Sometimes they choose to ignore symptoms you report, and sometimes they
recommend a cure that can have terrible secondary effects without saying one
word about those.

If you make the mistake of believing that they are scientists, and present
your own observations of possible cause and effect, they will either ignore
you or mock you. I have so many examples of my own and close relatives, from
the glaringly perceptual to the more subtle and personal, and have very little
respect left for their profession and insane costs.

~~~
Razengan
Doctors in that sense, and similarly lawyers, seem like the best candidates to
be replaced by ML/AI.

Why aren't we on this yet? (or are we?) That would be one of the best
applications of AI, with wide benefits for civilians the world over but also
causing social upheaval and thus facing resistance from the humans it attempts
to supplant.

~~~
threeseed
1\. Because the health industry is about as regulated as it gets so even if
ML/AI is possible there is zero chance of it being allowed to replace the
advice of a doctor.

2\. Because most people like seeing their doctor and talking to someone about
their issues. There isn't exactly an appetite for disruption here.

~~~
peteretep
I make reasonable use of:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr_Fox_Pharmacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr_Fox_Pharmacy)

When I want a medicine that requires a Dr's prescription, I can go and fill
out a survey on their site. A real Dr (presumably) makes the actual
prescription and my drugs show up. I am much happier for not seeing a doctor
or talking to someone about my issues.

The survey I take isn't traditional ML/AI, but it's definitely AI, as it boots
me out of the process if I answer some of the questions incorrectly.

Anyway, my point is: there's already disruption here, and it's awesome.

~~~
Timmah
That's not awesome that you hacked the system to prescribe yourself anything
you want. At best you're going to get the least efficient path to treatment.
At worst you could miss a serious condition and kill yourself.

~~~
peteretep
I am using the system directly as it is intended to be used, exactly as the UK
government is intending it is to be used. I'm not sure what you think the hack
is here. How the process works is detailed here:

[https://www.doctorfox.co.uk/how-it-
works.html](https://www.doctorfox.co.uk/how-it-works.html)

And you can see how they're regulated in the UK here:

[https://www.doctorfox.co.uk/regulation.html](https://www.doctorfox.co.uk/regulation.html)

------
apo
The link to Science in the article has a much more precise description of what
was found:

 _The anatomist Friedrich S. Merkel predicted in 1880 that sensory systems are
composed of epithelial cells and sensory nerves, which together transform
environmental cues into neural signals that trigger our rich sensory
experiences (1). We now know that this hypothesis mostly holds true for the
canonical senses of vision, hearing, taste, and touch. Perhaps surprisingly,
the peripheral outposts of these classical sensory systems (eyes, ears,
tongue, and skin) are dwarfed by the human body 's largest sensory organ—the
gut. Enteroendocrine cells, which are rare epithelial cells that decorate the
gut lining, have long been suspected to be sensory receptor cells that inform
the brain about ingested nutrients (2). Since their description, these cells
were assumed to play a role in metabolism and gut physiology by releasing
slow-acting peptide hormones that stimulate neurons throughout the gut and in
the brain. On page 1219 of this issue, Kaelberer et al. (3) challenge this
view by demonstrating that gut enteroendocrine cells locally excite sensory
nerves through release of the neurotransmitter glutamate. A recent study of
enterochromaffin cells, a subset of enteroendocrine cells, also found that gut
signals are transmitted at epithelial-neural synapses through release of the
neurotransmitter serotonin (4). Together, these findings overturn a decades-
old dogma that enteroendocrine cells signal exclusively through hormones._

[http://science.sciencemag.org/content/361/6408/1203](http://science.sciencemag.org/content/361/6408/1203)

What's new here appears to be the finding that the small molecules serotonin
and glutamate are acting as neurotransmitters in the Enteroendocrine system,
in addition to the peptide hormones that had originally been known.

The brain tends to use small molecule neurotransmitters rather than peptide
hormones to signal. So the finding, AFAICT, appears to link the brain and gut
even more chemically close together than had originally been thought.

------
nonbel
This headline is so wrong. The vagus nerve has been known about for thousands
of years: [http://www.acnr.co.uk/2017/09/naming-the-cranial-nerves-a-
hi...](http://www.acnr.co.uk/2017/09/naming-the-cranial-nerves-a-historical-
note/)

What they are claiming to have discovered is that an unexpected type of info
is being transmitted along this circuit.

~~~
jessriedel
I don't think they're talking about the vagus nerve, but rather some neuron-
like components of enteroendocrine cells in the gut that allow a faster
connection between those enteroendocrine cells and the brain (which of course
travels through the vagus nerve).

> Enteroendocrine cells, which stud the lining of the gut and produce hormones
> that spur digestion and suppress hunger, had footlike protrusions that
> resemble the synapses neurons use to communicate with each other. Bohórquez
> knew the enteroendocrine cells could send hormonal messages to the central
> nervous system, but he also wondered whether they could “talk” to the brain
> using electrical signals, the way that neurons do. If so, they would have to
> send the signals through the vagus nerve, which travels from the gut to the
> brain stem.

In other words, just because the vagus nerve innervates the small intestines
on the macroscopic scale does not mean enteroendocrine cells have a complete
electrical connection to the brain on the microscopic scale.

------
tim333
Just last night I bought a copy of Gut by Giulia Enders, partly as a present
for someone. She goes into a lot brain/gut stuff. There's some on youtube here
[https://youtu.be/BJ-C99FwRHQ](https://youtu.be/BJ-C99FwRHQ)

------
bananamansion
i could sense a correlation within my own body at a period in my life where i
was eating just sugar and processed food, that habit manifested a deep
depression which was only cured by water fasting for 23 days. After that
experience, there was no doubt in my mind that the gut and mind are connected.

~~~
oldgradstudent
The fact that diet may be deeply connected to mental state, does not
necessarily mean the mechanism is neural.

It could be as simple as high blood glucose levels causing depression (there's
some evidence for that).

------
perpetualcrayon
I was thinking about this (sort of) the other day. Trying to think generally
about the first animal life and how that translated to what we are today.
Basically the insight I had was that we're just stomachs with arms and legs
and brain.

~~~
shawn
Sort of. The essential quality is that you're likely to have children who then
have children. A walking pair of gonads or ovaries is more accurate.

Here's the human body scaled proportional to brain usage:

[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Front_of...](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Front_of_Sensory_Homunculus.gif)

(Mildly NSFW?)

The genital areas were not scaled because – seriously – they would far eclipse
the hands.

~~~
minhazm423
then isnt this picture kind of pointless and not supportive of your point at
all?

do you know if a picture exists thats truer to scale including genitals?

~~~
shawn
I was _just_ looking for that. It's annoying how difficult it is to find.

The only result I found was
[https://imgur.com/R24W168](https://imgur.com/R24W168) (definitely NSFW).

I wish it were possible to represent the female body in the same way for
comparison, since motherhood may give rise to some surprising differences.

Still, these pictures seem closer to "Let's imagine what might be true" rather
than "this is rigorously scientific," given the inconsistencies between
models. Nonetheless it seems generally true.

------
village-idiot
“Alternative” medical people have been saying it for a few years now: gut
health matters a lot.

It’s kind of frustrating having industrialized medicine scoff at people’s
experiences, only to turn around and “discover” what they’d been told about
repeatedly.

~~~
johnchristopher
I rarely hear alternative medicine proponents saying anything about gut
health. Chakras, bach flowers, essential oils, that kind of things.

~~~
Valmar
Then you've not heard from any real alternative medical practitioners, then!

A naturopath who focuses on diet and nutrition will not push this kind of
stuff on you! They've known about the gut-brain connection for years, now.

~~~
johnchristopher
I just realized I raised confusion between proponents and practitioners,
sorry. I never reached for a naturopath, only hear about alternative medicine
from people into it.

~~~
village-idiot
Also: there is a huge range of “alternative” medical practices. Some are
straight up quackery, while others are actually interested in science but
aren’t following the standard party line.

It’s why I put alternative in scare quotes.

------
superasn
This study could be another feather in the cap of late Dr.John Sarno who
advocated that a lot of diseases including gut problems, stomach pain, back
pain, etc are caused by TMS. Which is basically saying that your brain can
cause stomach ulcers, Gerd, etc using the peptide network whenever it feels
the need for it (like to manage stress, hide emotional abuse, etc)

~~~
johnchristopher
TMS ?

~~~
superasn
Tension Myositis Syndrome (1)

(1)
[http://www.tmswiki.org/ppd/An_Introduction_to_Tension_Myosit...](http://www.tmswiki.org/ppd/An_Introduction_to_Tension_Myositis_Syndrome_\(TMS\))

------
flashman
I bet this is why you get a sense of impending doom when you have to vomit.

~~~
steve_adams_86
I always thought it was so strange that something as relieving and safe as
vomiting makes us feel like the world is ending.

~~~
officialjunk
Maybe so you don't want to repeat what led to the vomiting in the first place.

------
jacob019
I get migraines a few times a month lately, 90% of the time it coincides with
a stomachache. I've heard that the gut uses more serotonin than the brain. I
am not surprised to find more communication.

~~~
mtgx
This might help:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0C6zoIgraWs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0C6zoIgraWs)

------
nyc111
Unfortunately most comments are about problems with medical doctors and not
about the subject of the article.

Can you share your personal experiences about how gut issues effect your mood
and decisions. For instance, I observe that when I have gas in the digestive
system the world is colored as a place of pending doom or catastrophy. The
smallest problems turn into unsurmountable imaginary disasters. I believe the
microbes (or parasites) in the gut color the world this way. When the stomach
is happily filled and satisfied the world looks like a nice place.

For food addiction, like craving sugar, I observe that I could never keep
promises to myself not to eat chocolate. I was guessing that the microbes or
parasites in the gut had direct access to the nervous system and they could
always override the decisions of the mind. Now I know that there is such a
mechanism as explained in the article.

I think the gut is what we used to call the sixth sense because the mind can
only perceive senses one at a time but it seems that the gut can synthesize
all sensory input and make a better decision. Also the gut knows more than the
mind. But how do microbes in the microbiome who have brief lifetimes make such
decisions I dont know. So what are your observations about your sixth sense?

~~~
kishoresurana
There is a simple solution. What if I tell you that there is a simple hand
posture will take all the gas from your body?

Read about Apana vayu mudra. Do it for 10 minutes when you have a gas trouble
and see what happens. Hint: you can’t stop burping and farting.

Some random site I found online which has a hand picture of how to do the
mudra: [http://www.healthmelody.com/heart-health/apana-vayu-mudra-
he...](http://www.healthmelody.com/heart-health/apana-vayu-mudra-heart-blood-
pressure/)

~~~
nyc111
The point was not about the elimination of gas, although thanks for mentioning
that. The point was to have examples of how the gut effect the mood. Because
the article talks about nervous system in the gut.

------
singularity2001
The vagus nerve is know for a long time, what exactly is new?

~~~
blennon
Indeed. What's new is what sort of information is conveyed from the gut to the
brain via the vagus nerve. Note: information is also conveyed in the other
direction from the brain to the gut.

This study shows that your gut is equipped with environmental sensors
(enteroendocrine cells) that can convey nutritional information from the gut
to the brain on short time scales (~seconds or faster). It's like your gut's
"eye" in that it can "see" what's going on, like sugars are present, and
convey this to your brain.

I'm not an expert on the gut-brain field but I've always wondered where food
cravings come from, especially specific ones that pregnant women often
exhibit. E.g. craving dirt. My conclusion is that your body must have a way of
sensing what nutrients you're ingesting and missing.

------
loblollyboy
I started drinking kefir and I think it is making me just generally better at
a lot of things

~~~
liftbigweights
From a few days ago.

"Probiotics labelled 'quite useless'"

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17927802](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17927802)

I wonder how much of "X helped me" is a result of the placebo effect and how
much of it is truly helpful.

~~~
darkerside
The science is still out and likely will be for a long time, but I think
people are generally too eager to label anything they don't understand as
impossible or a placebo effect. Not everything true is scientifically known,
or ever will be.

------
progr4mmatic
Interesting. I wonder if that could explain the stomach problems I get when
taking some pharmaceuticals that are meant to target my central nervous
system.

~~~
chillacy
Depending on the drug it could just be that the gut has receptors for common
neurotransmitters also used in the brain like serotonin and opiates.

------
Fire-Dragon-DoL
Oh, that explains why I have heartburn when I don't sleep well!

------
danschumann
What implications does this have for the scifi severed heads of futurama?

------
aagha
I'm fascinated by the fact that even now we're making new discoveries about
the human body.

Similarly, I'm fascinated how Western science tends to look down upon Eastern
"medicine", often ridiculing those that believe in herbal treatments or
homeopathy. While I'm not advocating either of those approaches to healing--I
don't know enough about either--it seems that Eastern medicine tends to take
an individualized approach to medicine that Western medicine is only now
starting to realize as important. Furthermore, discoveries like this one seem
to indicate that there are constantly new things for us to learn and consider.
We should pause to think that other, older cultures, may have made these
discoveries (or relationships/inferences) years ago and started to think about
ways of leveraging the to improve health.

~~~
kumarvvr
> homeopathy

Homeopathy is not 'eastern'. It was started by a German.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy)

