
Alcohol without the hangover? - Fice
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/11/alcohol-benefits-no-dangers-closer-think
======
Angostura
My take on this story is that this is basically David Nutt trolling the UK
government. I don't believe it's his intention at all to look at the
practicalities of manufacturing such a drug.

What he _does_ want to do, however is to get the government into a knot with
regard to its drugs policy. Nutt has always been for a drugs policy based
solely on the harm that a drug would do. He wants drug policy to be
stringently evidence-based.

So he starts talking about a drug with zero harmful side effects but with the
enjoyable effects. He wants to try and goad ministers into talking about
whether such a drug would be banned or allowed. So far the media hasn't really
taken the bit between the teeth, however.

~~~
Pitarou
Yup.

For a moment, I thought he'd made synthonol (that's one for Star Trek fans),
but your explanation makes much more sense.

Here's the background:

UK drugs law places drugs on 3 levels of illegality.

Class 1 (e.g. heroin): very illegal. Strict punishments for possession.

Class 2 (e.g. marijuana): illegal. If you're caught with a small quantity,
you'll probably be let off with just a caution.

Class 3 (e.g. body-building steroids): illegal to sell. Legal to possess in
small quantities.

The law requires the Secretary of State, under the advisement of a panel of
experts, to classify drugs according to the level of harm they cause. David
Nutt was on that panel.

The panel advised, among other things, that marijuana should be moved to Class
3. And, for a time, that was what happened. It was actually legal to smoke
marijuana in the UK. Then the government changed its mind, and moved marijuana
back to Class 2. The panel resigned in protest. David Nutt complained
especially loudly, and started comparing the risks of MDMA to horse-riding and
so on.

Apologies for any errors. This is just from memory.

~~~
erichocean
_For a moment, I thought he 'd made synthonol_

There's also _soma_ from _Brave New World_. Not sure if Aldous Huxley was the
first to write about the idea, but it's hard to argue that he wasn't the first
to bring it up _well_.

------
dbcooper
Please don't post pharmaceutical claims from the "Mother Nature Network." :-/

The Guardian article this was scavenged from is very light on details too.

[http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/11/alcohol...](http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/11/alcohol-
benefits-no-dangers-closer-think)

It looks to be a GABA agonist, which as HarryHirsch points out, are hardly
pharmaceuticals with a history of low risk ...

~~~
chimeracoder
> It looks to be a GABA agonist, which as HarryHirsch points out, are hardly
> pharmaceuticals with a history of low risk ...

GHB[0], diazepam (benzo), phenobarbitol (barbiturate)....

GHB is in some sense safer than people think it is (the trouble is that
overdoses are difficult to treat when they happen), but otherwise I'd agree -
alcohol is in many ways one of the most dangerous drugs known to man, but
sometimes it's better to stick to the devil you know.

[0] Common club drug, as well as a common date rape drug

~~~
jlgreco
> _" [0] Common club drug, as well as a common date rape drug"_

GHB is used for that far less frequently than many people seem to think. The
common date rape drug seems to be alcohol itself:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_rape_drug#Frequency_of_occ...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_rape_drug#Frequency_of_occurrence)

This realization is important because it changes what sort of caution should
be used with drinks in clubs. First and foremost, it is important to have a
strong grasp on how much ethanol your drinks have in them. Letting somebody
order you an unfamiliar cocktail might not be a good idea if you don't have a
solid grasp on how that extra drink will affect you _(whereas conventional
wisdom about date rape drugs might have you believe that accepting a random
cocktail straight from the bartender is perfectly safe)_.

~~~
weland
> This realization is important because it changes what sort of caution should
> be used with drinks in clubs.

This is very, very sound advice!

I have a somewhat unusually high tolerance to alcohol, which means that by the
time everyone around me is drunk as fuck, I'm just getting worked up, and I'm
no fun at drinking contests. As a consequence, I have witnessed an unspeakable
number of people leaving with people they just met (or worse, _driving_ ) when
they were drunk beyond belief. Having a history of alcohol intake myself, I
know perfectly well that you can be quite sure you're in perfect share when
you're barely dragging your feet.

GHB may be fancy and slick, but I have often seen people who were so drunk
that it wouldn't have had any obvious, immediate effect.

Obligatory disclaimer: my heavy alcohol intake coincided with a period when I
suffered from, and actually sought treatment for depression. I never slipped
into alcoholism, but drank heavily. I still drink, and still more than your
average Joe, but when I feel I get dizzy, I switch to soda. "Stay away from
the booze!" is not something I'd advocate, but being _careful_ with the booze
is an advice I give wholeheartedly and out of quite some sorrow experience.
Your liver may well survive the intake, but your brain and your soul are a lot
more fragile than they seem.

------
carbocation
We already have benzodiazepines, which are a class of drug that fits the
description here perfectly: they affect GABA without doing all of the other
things that alcohol does, and they have an antidote (flumazenil).

Like many drugs, they put you at risk for impaired driving, disinhibited
behavior, etc. People use them on the street and they can certainly come in
with benzodiazepine withdrawal, which looks pretty much like alcohol
withdrawal (both of which can be life-threatening, unlike most other types of
withdrawal).

There is little reason to think that a new GABAergic compound would be "safe"
by any stretch of the imagination. The proof will have to come in the form of
clinical trials.

~~~
shenberg
Alcohol actually doesn't bind to the same site as benzodiazepines, which is
why valium doesn't make you feel drunk. Something that mimics alcohol's
binding behavior is in fact new.

~~~
carbocation
It is true that alcohol and benzodiazepines (and barbiturates and z-drugs, for
that matter) bind to different sites on GABA. While noteworthy
pharmacologically, it does not address my comment about the organism-level
effects of GABAergic stimulation.

~~~
shenberg
'course it does - valium doesn't feel like being drunk.

------
theboywho
The same story from 2009
[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/6874884/Alcohol...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/6874884/Alcohol-
substitute-that-avoids-drunkenness-and-hangovers-in-development.html)

------
driverdan
Very poorly written blogspam. Try the original link:
[http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/11/alcohol...](http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/11/alcohol-
benefits-no-dangers-closer-think)

------
rickdale
I just want to point out that no matter how beneficial a drug is and even if
it claims its minus the health risks, there is an inherent risk in taking any
drug. Drugs can affect everyone differently and even a healthier version of
something will have some effects, whether short or long term. Plus, if its
just alcohol with no downside, the abuse of this drug seems like it would be
rampant.

Although my comment might seem like I am against the drug, I am all for it.
Especially from a business perspective.

~~~
graeme
Good point. I'll also add that we're reasonably sure what alcohol does. We've
been drinking it for thousands of years, and it's been extensively studied.

Does this drug have unknown side effects that outweigh the visible benefits?
Only time and extensive testing will tell. Alcohol's already been through that
gauntlet.

Of course, as with the parents comment, I'd love to see this work. Just don't
assume that it's "safe" because we've shown it doesn't have X number of
adverse effects we specifically looked for, within a limited timeframe.

~~~
neltnerb
Alcohol has been through that gauntlet and failed miserably...

~~~
graeme
I didn't say alcohol is safe, I said we have a pretty good idea what it does.

------
HarryHirsch
WTF? I don't know what drug is being sold in that article, but it's likely
that it is a GABA agonist. And if it's that there is the risk of drug
dependency. We know it because the benzodiazepines and barbiturates are quite
addictive.

~~~
simonster
Alcohol can also be quite addictive. The question is whether people who
wouldn't get addicted to alcohol would get addicted to this substance.

~~~
dmckeon
The referenced articles seem to repeat assertions that this new drug may be
{less|not} addictive without providing {pharmo|neuro|pyscho} reasons for those
assertions.

My guess is that people will be able to find old or new ways to abuse or
become addicted.

The idea of an antidote or antagonist is initially appealing, but we may see
the pattern that made the narcotic antagonist nalaxone (Narcan) subject to
abuse - people take a long lunch break, inject a narcotic, enjoy the buzz, and
then use the antagonist before returning to work, _supposedly_ no worse for
wear.

Would someone who does the benzo-equivalent of a three-martini lunch and then
takes the benzo-antagonist be ready to return to coding, planning, or digital
networking no worse than they were when they left work?

Will the antagonist really convert someone who is too benzo'd to drive to
someone capable of driving as well as their pre-impaired self?

How long will it take for societies to work out those details and differences?

This is something that has great potential, if it could replace ethanol
without bad effects of ethanol - but to believe that it might have _no_ bad
effects seems naïve.

~~~
shabble
Do you have any reliable references for this use of Naloxone as a "lunch hour
fix-ender"? I'm led to believe the administration of it isn't particularly
pleasant under any circumstances, and the risk of an excessive dose causing
precipitated withdrawal symptoms is probably the worst.

Not to mention, the mere idea that you'd waste money by ending it early would
send many users away laughing.

And if you have the money and time/connections to be sourcing Naloxone on a
regular basis, why not just use a short-acting opioid like Fentanyl (or even
just Heroin?)

In what ways would the 3-martini-equiv benzo + nominal antidote be worse than,
say, 3 martini lunch? It seems like the problem is more with irresponsible
people consuming drugs for recreation when they shouldn't, rather than the
drugs themselves[1].

Giving such irresponsible people the ability to hide either consumption
without totally reversing its effects would indeed be a net negative, but same
can be argued of breath mints or dark glasses, neither of which are known to
make you a better drunk-driver.

Overall, I'd be deeply surprised if there wasn't something objectively better
than alcohol in every way, but agreed that it's going to take society a long
time and a good number of missteps to accept and adapt to it.

[1] Ignoring for brevity the issues of dependence, addiction and tolerance
that might _require_ them to dose regularly, or risk even greater impairment
or harm to themselves.

~~~
girvo
I've been hit with Narcan. That shit is horrible and put me in instant
withdrawals. The overlap of people who inject heroin and other opiates, who
aren't already at risk of being put into withdrawals from Narcan would be
exceedingly low, IMO.

It did save my life, though.

------
smoyer
So it's going to be illegal as a controlled substance right? Our policies are
so hit-and-miss that the chance of it being one of the three legalized drugs
(coffee/tea, tobacco and alcohol), is miniscule.

~~~
chimeracoder
It all depends on whether (and how long) the big players (Pharma, etc.) can
profit off of it.

Case-in-point: we're starting to treat heroin dependence with a drug that is
just as recreationally potent, and has similar risk of overdose[0], when we
could just easily be treating it with heroin itself (diacetylmorphine
maintenance[1]).

Currently, buprenorphine is the "right" drug to be addicted to, but even its
makers started advertising its high addictive potential (in an attempt to push
their new "safer" version, which is still under patent protection and
therefore more profitable[2]).

At some point, we can only imagine that Reckitt Benckiser (the makers) will
have milked as much as they can out of the drug, and we will declare
buprenorphine a "bad" drug to be addicted to, just like heroin, and treat its
addiction with the latest shiny, new drug.

We've seen this cycle many, many times. In fact, it's worth mentioning here
that the word "heroin" was originally a Bayer trademark[3]. It was a cough
suppressant invented as a "safer" over-the-counter substitute for the
recreational bogeyman of the time: morphine.

How times change!

(By the way, I recognize that buprenorphine can be very helpful in treatment.
this is not to say that buprenorphine is either right or wrong for everyone,
just that the laws and policies that we construct around these drugs often
represent financial interests more than they represent scientific or medical
facts.)

[0] [http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/17/health/in-demand-in-
clinic...](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/17/health/in-demand-in-clinics-and-
on-the-street-bupe-can-be-savior-or-menace.html?_r=0)

[1] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin-
assisted_treatment](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin-assisted_treatment)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evergreening](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evergreening)

[3]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin#Etymology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin#Etymology)

~~~
smoyer
So what you're saying is that it all depends on whether the politicians whose
palms are greased by the pharmaceutical companies have enough clout to even
their debts.

------
deletes
Reminds me of soma from Brave New World.

If the drug is really that marvelous and the author has problems with alcohol
competitors, he should just open source the preparation procedure.

~~~
vertr07
"If nobody wants to buy your startup _right now_ , you should just give up and
open source it."

------
nomercy400
Alcohol industry not interested? Transform it in a startup, buy rights to
produce some sort of existing brand and show them otherwise. If it catches on,
good for you. If it doesn't, apparently it wasn't a good idea. Complaining
about how difficult it is to be accepted won't change the world. He has the
hype already going.

~~~
dmritard96
I would argue your fundamental assumption that good ideas will always succeed
is faulty. There are plenty of examples to prove it.

~~~
javanix
Cite them then.

------
colinbartlett
"Want to go to the bar after work and pop pills?"

~~~
mburns
"Want to go to the arcade now that we don't have open containers to worry
about?"

------
tracker1
Easy two step process to avoid a hangover...

1\. pace yourself (one drink every 45+ minutes) 2\. drink water between
alcohol drinks.

I usually don't have more than 2-3 drinks when I go out. Even when I was
younger, and drank more, following the steps above I only ever had a hangover
when I broke those rules.

------
maxander
Alcohol production has thousands of years of refinement and tradition behind
it- pretty hard to beat as a marketing establishment. If the majority of
people were just after pleasurable effects we would have most likely shifted
to a more effective drug a long time ago.

~~~
baby
Maybe, but if this thing works it's way more appealing to me and I would quit
completely alcohol. I've been looking for a healthier replacement but it's
pretty hard to find.

~~~
HarryHirsch
To me proper beer in a proper bar is to a short-acting benzodiazepine what a
proper meal is to Soylent. Drugs are part of human culture after all, like
food, and part of the enjoyment comes from the social environment.

I don't think the health effects are that much of a concern. The liver is
quite capable of dealing with alcohol consumed in moderation, and if you are
drinking that much that you are getting worried about the state of your liver
you should also worry how you are treating the people around you while
continuously under the influence.

~~~
DanBC
> I don't think the health effects are that much of a concern.

Very many people (especially in the UK) do not drink alcohol in moderation.
Liver disease and cirrhosis is seen more commonly in young people than it used
to be.

> and if you are drinking that much that you are getting worried about the
> state of your liver you should also worry how you are treating the people
> around you while continuously under the influence.

This appears to over-estimate the amount of alcohol needed to destroy a liver.
A person does not need to be continuously drunk to severely damage their
liver. Tolerance to alcohol would probably mean that they are not drunk all
the time.

A woman drinking a glass of wine each evening, with an extra glass on Friday,
Saturday, and Sunday is drinking (10 glasses of wine per week) is drinking
something like 26 units a week, assuming a 200 ml serving size and a 13% ABV
strength. WHO suggest that women drinking more than 14 units per week are at
risk (although this is old advice) and men should drink less than 21 units per
week. This woman will not see her drinking as anything extreme, and most
people in the UK wouldn't see that as a worrying drinking pattern.

Current recommendations include some alcohol free days to allow the liver to
repair itself.

~~~
HarryHirsch
> Very many people (especially in the UK) do not drink alcohol in moderation.
> Liver disease and cirrhosis is seen more commonly in young people than it
> used to be.

The British problem is more of a social problem of really, really overdoing it
on the weekend - Everything2 has a lovely writeup on the "vertical drinking
establishment". If you substitute benzos for alcohol you may have less
vomiting in the streets, but just as much fighting at chuck-out time.

There seem to be more cases of liver diseases in Britain than in other
European nations. Since binge-drinking does not affect the liver quite as much
as drinking smaller amounts more often, it seem that these are due to
alcoholism. If you substitute benzodiazepines for alcohol, this wouldn't be
much of an improvement, instead of a whiny, angry alcoholic whose life
revolves around his stash you'd have a whiny angry benzo addict whose life
still revolves around their stash. Their liver would be in better shape,
though.

(Full disclosure: I have alcoholic family members and am deeply suspicious of
quick cures)

~~~
a8da6b0c91d
Are we sure alcohol alone explains increases in liver problems? People are
also increasingly fat and have poor diet related problems that would impact
the liver.

~~~
HarryHirsch
The main risk factors for cirrhosis are alcohol and hepatitis B and C. The UK
doesn't have a worse drug problem than the rest of Western Europe,
consequently it must be the drinking.

~~~
DanBC
The UK does have worse obesity problems than the rest of western europe, so
parent asks a reasonable question.

Is obesity a factor in greater rates of liver disease?

~~~
HarryHirsch
Here is an analysis of the risk factors:
[http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/www.dh.gov.uk/en...](http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/AnnualReports/Browsable/DH_4903444)

This report from the British government says that virus hepatitis and alcohol
are the biggest risk factors and that a strategy needs to be devised against
these to fight chronic liver disease.

------
leoc
But such a drug already exists, does it not?
[http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-compass-
pleasure/201...](http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-compass-
pleasure/201106/the-irish-ether-drinking-craze-0)

------
ericmsimons
Sounds like an amazing breakthrough; I'd love to know more about this. How
closely do the effects mimic that of alcohol? Can you overdose? Is there
reason to believe that this could be similarly priced to alcohol?

------
tobyjsullivan
> The only proven way to reduce alcohol harms is to limit consumption through
> increased pricing and limiting availability. Most governments have shied
> away from this...

This article lost me pretty early with these words. Here in British Columbia,
Canada, minimum pricing is also in effect. I can tell you full well it does
nothing to control consumption and, as with most prohibitions, only increases
the amount of social problems. I've looked into the research proving it is
effective and haven't managed to find any. I question where the author gets
his facts.

------
anonyfox
I'd buy it immediately. Is there any webshop that sells this stuff?

~~~
robinduckett
It's a compound being experimented with in a university. It's not your run of
the mill, garage created designer drug.

~~~
jes5199
Plenty of street drugs are manufactured in university labs

------
6d0debc071
I guess the question is how easily this thing can be studied for health
effects. Ecigs look to be getting the kiss of death in the UK from the MHRA
because of a lack of long-term studies, the only people who tried to get their
ecigs up to a consistent and studied standard beforehand ran out of money as
far as I know, so I'm not particularly hopeful that this'll manage to avoid
regulatory hurdles.

~~~
mistercow
>Ecigs look to be getting the kiss of death in the UK from the MHRA because of
a lack of long-term studies

Doesn't look that way to me. It just looks like the MHRA has decided to
regulate them.

~~~
6d0debc071
Still looks like they're trying to give it the kiss of death to me.

Relevant:

[http://www.mhra.gov.uk/home/groups/comms-
ic/documents/websit...](http://www.mhra.gov.uk/home/groups/comms-
ic/documents/websiteresources/con286852.pdf)

Now, complying with regulation for medical devices is very expensive. Their
high end estimate for the costs to a company that wanted to import _ _a_ _
product into the UK for sale sits at £266,000. A figure I consider to be
rather optimistically low. And that assuming that

'57\. Our MA cost estimates assume that applicants would not have to conduct
expensive animal and post-market-authorisation human clinical trials to
satisfy MHRA that the risks to health from long term inhalation of ENDS vapour
are acceptable. However, this may not be the case and MHRA assessors might ask
for these additional trials. The one-off costs of conducting these additional
trials would probably run into several hundreds of thousands of pounds. '

A lot of the strength of the e-cig market is in its diversity, you can get a
lot of different flavours, and a lot of different devices to get the
experience you want. Which this sort of thing would make very costly. And it's
worth noting that the MHRA is fairly blatantly against diversity in flavours,
it's even mentioned as one of the things they'd do in options 1.

And all this in a paper that notes:

'The policy might only need to be marginally unsuccessful for it to be
considered a costly failure. If the design and implementation of the policy
has the effect of reducing access to NCPs (particularly ENDS) then it is
possible that the number of successful quit attempts could decline. If there
were no substantial countervailing health gains from improvements in safety,
the policy’s overall impact could be highly negative.'

If they push this through to the hilt, I rather suspect that we'll end up with
just the big companies trading their crappy little fake-cigs.

At this stage it's a matter of seeing how the EU breaks on the issue. With big
tobacco attempting to kill off their competitors before they become large
enough to defend themselves, BT being one of the few who can afford that sort
of thing, I'm not hugely hopeful of that.

~~~
mistercow
Hmm, it seems you're right. They aren't saying they're going to outlaw it.
They're just going to regulate it to death.

I say "good luck". These things are rapidly approaching critical mass, and
with tons of availability on the internet, all they're going to do is siphon
the economic benefits into other countries.

------
pbreit
That the incumbents are supposedly giving it the cold shoulder is such a lame
angle. Who cares? Go out and make a great new product category!

------
cowsandmilk
I too can write an article claiming I have 5 magical new compounds that are
untested, but have the properties I declare.

~~~
Goopplesoft
Sure, but do you have ethos of this guy?
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Nutt](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Nutt)

------
robinduckett
Synthahol

------
dlsym
Synthehol, here we come.

~~~
fergal
Exactly what I was thinking

------
wturner
This already somewhat exists naturally in the form of kava kava.

~~~
VLM
I have drank a fair amount of that; Before "survivor" went there I think it
was the only thing the country of Vanuatu was widely known for. Although some
claim only the Hawaiian varieties are any good. I hope they can improve on the
taste of the raw product which can best be compared to muddy, slightly gritty,
river water. Kava subjectively compares well to the claims in the article. The
mouth numbness is a little weird. Every year or two I buy some; probably due
for some more, soon.

No commentary at all about the proposed antidote or its possible properties? I
suspect the most obvious interesting drug interaction would be the proposed
antidote vs something similar yet different like good old fashioned ethanol.

~~~
wturner
If you want to improve on the taste mix it with mango powder, stevia and
cinnamon (personal recipe). The mango powder kills the taste, the rest just
adds some flavor. ;)

------
mistercow
Phenibut is actually pretty close, except that it's still addictive
(physically; the psychological component isn't that strong).

~~~
girvo
Ugh, not in my experience. Fun, for sure, but very easy to over do and end up
sleeping far far too much.

~~~
mistercow
Getting up the next morning if you use too much is difficult, but in my
experience it's almost the opposite of a hangover; instead of the world
seeming horrible and impossible to face, my bed is simply the most wonderful
place I can imagine being. Keeping a caffeine pill next to the bed can be an
effective countermeasure.

------
mixmastamyk
The author didn't mention if or why-not they are working on an antidote to
alcohol itself. Anyone have any information on that?

~~~
girvo
It's hard. Ethanol is a pretty horrible drug in terms of how it works.

------
TausAmmer
By allowing unrestricted consumption of any kind of drug or/and substance you
will see the state of civilization you are in.

------
bhitov
With absolutely no specifics this article is useless.

------
lemagaz
It's best to drink in moderation

------
jheriko
HAH!

No hangovers.

------
niix
\o/

------
fit2rule
Beware anything you can't manufacture/grow yourself. If its fun, and you
didn't cook it yourself: forget it. You're going to lose.

~~~
jlgreco
So you're saying I shouldn't eat souffles?

~~~
fit2rule
I'm saying you shouldn't wire yourself up to an industrial drug supply over
which you, and your political representatives, clearly have _zero_ sovereign
control.

~~~
jlgreco
You'd be amazed at the variety of compounds you can pay to have synthesized.

~~~
fit2rule
You might be more amazed at what you yourself can grow for free and with all
the universe at your disposal. But then again, maybe not ..

