
Russian scientists have created a breed of domesticated foxes (costs $6K) - vaksel
http://www.sibfox.com/
======
Nekojoe
I remember seeing a documentary about these foxes last year. IIRC they were
part of a science experiment to see if it was nature or nurture that was the
key factor in the domestication of dogs.

Basically with each litter of foxes they selected the most friendly, and
allowed them to breed, creating more friendly / domesticated foxes. They also
selected the most vicious and bred them separately as a control. Later when
the behaviours became more pronounced they artificially inseminated the
vicious foxes with the domesticated foxes embryos to find out if they would be
aggressive or domestic. They turned out to be domestic.

Interestingly because foxes are solitary animals they behave more like cats
than dogs.

~~~
araneae
Sort of mostly right. You can't artificially inseminate with an embryo though,
only semen.

What was interesting about the experiment is that while they only selected for
tameness, a lot of the characteristics you see in modern dogs arose. For
instance, piebald fur, curly fur, curly tails, floppy ears, shortened snout,
etc. Basically what was happening was that by selecting for tameness, they
were both selecting for a lengthier juvenile period and more paedomorphic
traits.

So this answered the question of how humans managed to select for traits in
domesticated dogs that don't appear in wolves. How do you select for piebald
color if it isn't present in the initial gene pool? Or a curly tail? Well,
those variations are a consequence of domestication.

For instance, only in domesticated animals do you see that characteristic
white forehead star, and they made that discovery of what was happening from
these animals. As an animal grows, cells containing melanin migrate throughout
the body. But if you length the juvenile period and make them move more
slowly, some die before they reach their final destination. The white star on
the forehead, seen in these foxes as well as horses, cows, and others, is
because the melanin containing cells reach there last, and they don't quite
make it.

~~~
pygy_
> You can't artificially inseminate with an embryo though, only semen.

Of course you can. Fertilize the eggs in vitro then transplant them.

</386>

~~~
araneae
It was a tongue-in-cheek comment. "Inseminate" means "to introduce semen into
the reproductive tract of a female." You _implant_ embryos, not inseminate.

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Psyonic
While this is interesting for a scientific point of view, I really hope these
don't become popular in the US. The last thing we need is another "cute"
animal that gets over-bred. Visit your local humane society and see how well
thats working out for cats and dogs.

------
joubert
They sell neutered pups only. Artificial scarcity.

~~~
mootothemax
Their FAQ says: _All foxes come neutered. It is illegal to breed Sibirian tame
foxes bought from Siberian farm._

I'd love to know if that's true, or if it's some hell-bent crazy
interpretation of IP laws.

~~~
ars
It's neither - it's wishful thinking. They hope if they say it people will
believe them.

~~~
electromagnetic
True, but it's better than some redneck retard seeing an opportunity and
buying a male and female and inbreeding them to make $3000 a pop until they
turn viscous, like German Shepherds, Golden Retrievers, etc.

I know they're doing this to keep their profit artificially high, however I'd
rather someone be making $6000 selling healthy well cared for animals rather
than see idiots abusing animals because they're a new novelty.

I own exotic pets and I've heard true horror stories of people buying sick
pets, I'd hate to see that happening with a new species. I'd love it if the
domestic fox could be the one domesticated species we don't bastardize over
sheer greed.

------
jacquesm
Ancient hunters have created a breed of domesticated wolves/dingos, cost $100
or less in countries where they're subsidised at your nearby humane society.

edit: updated for a less euro-centric view. Thanks araneae

~~~
gwern
Yeah, but they don't look like these.

(Also, I suppose a small fraction of the money goes to support their IMO
interesting research. Which is approximately infinite percent more for a
charitable cause than from the price of a designer cat or dog.)

~~~
jacquesm
Agreed, they're beautiful animals.

You can actually befriend foxes in the wild near your home relatively easily
if you are patient. I'd be very wary of letting one of them (or one of the
'tame' ones above) near very young children though.

Dogs have been bred for many thousands of generations and yet there still are
plenty of them that bear careful watching in spite of being tame, with these
animals I'd be extra careful, their roots are much more wild than any regular
dog you'll ever meet.

The brother of one of my ex employees in Canada had a half-wolf, half
Sheppard. An absolutely amazing animal but imprinted on one person only, dog
to him, wolf to the rest of the world. I imagine these foxes to be _much_ more
tame than their wild cousins but until you've seen them in stressful
situations you'd have to be careful with individual specimen, even if as a
breed they're considered tame enough for being around the house. The same goes
for dogs.

In Australia there are people that hold dingos as pets, that's another
interesting option.

~~~
btilly
Said brother should be careful. The problem with pet wolves and wolf hybrids
is that they are happy to view you as pack, but are still wired to try to take
over the pack when they grow up and get the opportunity.

This can lead to the situation where the pet is just fine until the owner gets
injured. Then the "pet" seizes the opportunity to take leadership and breeding
rights. As you can imagine, this is rather distressing for the humans
involved.

~~~
jacquesm
Yes, that's absolutely true, and they've had a 'battle for dominance' already,
he came out of it with nothing more than a bunch of scratches though
(fortunately).

The guy is _very_ well aware of what he's doing and is not taking any chances.

He lives in Northern Ontario, just North of Sault ste. Marie, in the bush, on
his own, no other family members nearby, and he knows the risks involved.

~~~
mkramlich
I think this statement:

> The guy ... is not taking any chances.

is contra-indicated by the fact he knowingly lives with a half-wolf and that:

> He lives in Northern Ontario, just North of Sault ste. Marie, in the bush,
> on his own, no other family members nearby

it reminds me of when people who skydive out of airplanes describe themselves
as "safety conscious". :)

~~~
jacquesm
Well, with not taking chances - aside from living with his four footed friend
- he is very much conscious of the nature of his friend and takes all the
precautions to make sure that it will not have some tragic ending.

He's as knowledgeable about wild animals as any person I've met.

Living with another human being is also taking a chance, after all one night
they might turn out to be the latest incarnation of Hanibal Lecter after all.
Life is risk, some of it you can mitigate, some of it you feel you have to
take.

But you can limit the damage from the risks you take if you think things
through in advance and that's what I mean with 'he doesn't take any chances'.

Just like the skydiver you mention, they usually go to extremes to make sure
their gear is in proper working order. The skydiver may take a risk jumping
out of the plane, the pilot still has to land it, which is a risky operation
all by itself. Risk is simply unavoidable, not thinking about risks increases
the risks sometimes far more than the risks themselves.

------
ars
Talk about DRM - they are neutered!

------
chopsueyar
I'd rather go for a fennec.

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXp9RyBzsSI>

------
gamble
I tried to contact these people about a year ago, but never received a
response. Couldn't find any evidence that they've ever imported a fox for
anyone else, either. They may not be a going concern.

------
gus_massa
Video with the foxs: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enrLSfxTqZ0>

~~~
chopsueyar
Is that John Lithgow narrating?

~~~
Oompa
It certainly sounds like it.

------
tomjen3
Now all I have to do is get a startup to sell, then I can get a pet that
nobody in my family is allergic to.

Great.

~~~
rdj
Are they all allergic to snakes (or reptiles in general)?

~~~
tomjen3
No, I don't think so but I don't like snakes and have no particular love for
reptiles - they aren't that nice to pet.

------
dailo10
If you want a dog that looks (and sometimes acts) like a fox, check out the
Shiba Inu.

[http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8...](http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=shiba+inu)

------
socram2k
Foxes spread a horrible smell, most people don't know because they've never
been next to a fox and they think they will smell like a cat or a dog(wich
also smell but it isn't comparable)

------
nphase
Foxes are beautiful creatures. Not sure why they picked the ugliest ones to
showcase.

~~~
dchest
These are cute: <http://www.sibfox.com/foxes/> :-)

~~~
nphase
OK, now i want one again!

------
gaius
These are not the usual kind of Siberian Foxes one finds on the Internet... ;)

------
brc
Yeah, if I were a politician I'd be heading this one off at the pass and
banning it before it became popular. The last thing the world needs is another
designer pet. Sure, do scientific research but don't release these things on
the world.

This can only end badly for everyone involved, the foxes, the owners, children
and various native species in the vicinity of the adopting home.

