
Uber's experiment in behavioral science to subtly entice drivers - nikolasavic
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/04/02/technology/uber-drivers-psychological-tricks.html
======
joelrunyon
> It has even concocted an algorithm similar to a Netflix feature that
> automatically loads the next program, which many experts believe encourages
> binge-watching. In Uber’s case, this means sending drivers their next fare
> opportunity before their current ride is even over.

I have to say that as a USER, I've noticed this change (I think it's been
fairly recent) that they assign you a driver who hasn't yet finished a trip.

What ends up happening is Uber tells you an "estimate" of 3 minutes to arrival
before you book. Then it assigns the driver and says "10 minutes" to arrival,
but the driver hasn't even dropped off their last passenger yet. So, what's
happened _multiple_ times is that the 10 minute estimate ends up staying at
"10 minutes" for 5-10 minutes straight and 15-20 minutes after I booked, the
driver shows up.

I would understand this if I ordered an Uber pool, but I ordered a black car
and it still operated like that.

I'm not sure when they made this specific change, but I've noticed it a lot
more in 2017 and overall I've been really disappointed with the _uber app_
this year as they seem to be trying to over-optimize everything to the hilt
and it's starting to backfire

~~~
joelrunyon
They also sweeten the deal so that if you cancel more than 5 minutes AFTER you
accept the fare, they still charge you a cancellation fee.

So, they give you a pie-in-the-sky estimate, you wait ten minutes, realize
it's still gonna be an extra 10 minutes and then cancel because you can grab a
taxi _right there_ and they want to charge you a cancellation fee.

I understood that when they were at least _close_ on their estimate times, but
now it just seems like they're intentionally being difficult.

~~~
macNchz
I stopped using Uber after a couple of instances where a driver accepted my
ride request and then drove steadily in the opposite direction for quite a
while before canceling and triggering a charge to my account for not 'being
where I was supposed to be'.

Each time this happened on a busy Manhattan avenue where I watched empty
yellowcabs fly past for 15 minutes. Totally infuriating. Used to take a few
per month but now haven't taken an Uber since September.

~~~
cynicalkane
I live in NYC. That used to be a frequent problem, but I haven't had that
happen to me recently. Whenever it did happen, I would cancel, contact
support, and get my $5 back. It only takes a few minutes to contact support
from within the app.

~~~
macNchz
I was able contest the fee each time (with an extra step to get it actually
refunded rather than a credit for future rides), but the reason I started
using Uber to begin with was largely about accountability and convenience,
both of which seemed to be on the decline when this was happening. Plus
there's something especially insulting about being charged a fee for the
privilege of being stood up.

Maybe things have improved recently but their corporate behavior hasn't given
me much reason to start using the app again.

------
DigitalSea
>"We've underinvested in the driver experience," a senior official said. "We
are now re-examining everything we do in order to rebuild that love."

This just seems so crazy to me. A company who's very foundations are built on
its number one assets: drivers has been neglecting them. It's like an airline
neglecting its pilots or hospital neglecting its surgeons. Without drivers,
Uber dies. I know they're investing in self-driving vehicles, but self-driving
Uber's are a long way off after a spate of incidents and the pending Waymo
lawsuit. It's going to take many more millions and countless lobbying to adopt
laws for self-driving vehicles.

Seems to me that Uber see their drivers as temporary pawns in a long game of
chess. Eventually, Uber hopes to replace their drivers with self-driving
vehicles a dream they've been aggressively trying to make happen. What a
horrible business.

~~~
hkmurakami
Hospitals abuse residents who are the future lifeblood of the hospitals. Just
because the personnel are essential doesn't preclude the abuse.

~~~
puranjay
Hospitals have the luxury of choice. Where else are the doctors going to
practice?

------
hn_throwaway_99
I'll just point out that every two-sided marketplace in existence uses tons of
data and behavioral techniques to get "suppliers" (e.g. drivers on Uber, hosts
on AirBnB, sellers on eBay, manufacturers on Alibaba, etc. etc.) to offer the
best buyer experience at the lowest cost.

------
minimaxir
That's certainly one approach toward interactive journalism.

Works incredibly well on mobile devices too.

------
Bartweiss
Did anyone else find the treatment of "forward dispatch" here strange?

Obviously a lot of the things in this article are gross (why the hell does
Uber give out badges?), but forward dispatch makes a lot of sense. It
convinces drivers to work longer hours _by making them more money_. Driver
downtime is uniformly terrible - it delays rides, diminishes Uber's revenue,
and cuts drivers' wages. It's textbook market inefficiency (unmet supply and
demand at once), and reducing it is a win for everyone.

Some of the things surrounding forward dispatch are messy, yes. It makes for
inaccurate estimates, activating it every login is ugly, and deploying it
without a pause button was malicious or idiotic (remember that drivers take
hits for rejecting rides). But why is a central piece of this article a claim
that a driver-requested, wage-increasing feature really just undermines self-
control?

------
romanticreptile
A slightly off-topic question: when was the last time when Hacker News front
page hasn't featured a negative post about Uber?

~~~
throwanem
When was the last time anyone had anything positive to say about Uber?

~~~
Anderkent
> When was the last time anyone had anything positive to say about Uber?

This is the exact reason why I find it hard to take seriously anything anyone
says about Uber on the internet. The completely one-sided 'discussion' is so
divorced from reality - if there was really nothing positive to say about
Uber, why do people still choose to use and drive for them?

~~~
DannyBee
"if there was really nothing positive to say about Uber, why do people still
choose to use and drive for them?"

if there was really nothing positive to say about Comcast, why do people still
choose to use them?

~~~
throwaway40483
Because in many markets, Comcast is the only provider.

------
Animats
On a somewhat unrelated note, I saw a Uber-labeled vehicle tday on I-280 near
Woodside, equipped with an older model rotating Velodyne scanner on top. It
didn't look like Uber's publicly known self-driving cars. It was doing a
steady 45 in the middle lane, and I suspect it was mapping, not self-driving.

~~~
bri3d
[https://www.uber.com/info/mapping/](https://www.uber.com/info/mapping/)

Uber have had mapping cars for quite some time - they also acquired Bing Maps
from Microsoft in 2015.

~~~
jeffjose
What do you mean they acquired Bing Maps from Microsoft? Bing Maps is owned by
Uber now? Sorry if this is common-knowledge to everyone; I don't remember
reading about it.

~~~
mikeyouse
News to me too, but apparently they bought a bunch of tech and 100 Bing Maps
employees in 2015:

[http://mashable.com/2015/06/29/uber-bing-
maps/#yo4ZMCPC1aqj](http://mashable.com/2015/06/29/uber-bing-
maps/#yo4ZMCPC1aqj)

------
a_c
Not related. Can someone share what are those interactive "images" made of? Or
what are the correct terms to call those "images"?

~~~
jeffjose
My initial assumption was they were made of d3.js (SVG) but looking at the
inspector they seem to be canvas elements (<canvas>).

I didn't see any mention on d3.js in the js libraries being pulled in, so not
sure.

------
ianamartin
I had a really bad date about a month ago. In a part of Brooklyn I'm not
familiar with. Things started well, and the woman asked me if I would help her
move some stuff because she was having some remodeling done. I was all, "Okay.
Sure."

I wasn't set up all that well to begin with. Long day at work, tired. My phone
was close to dead. So euphemism for hooking up or not, I went home with her.
And she's legit trying to move stuff. So I start helping out. She has a lot of
art, and she's telling me really specifically about where to put stuff. I take
one painting and put it where I thought she wanted it.

That was not where she wanted it. Because the way I placed it in the closet it
was touching some of her clothes. This was not okay. And she flips the fuck
out on me and starts screaming at me about how I don't care about her things.

Okay, okay. I'm sorry. We're cool now, right honey bunny? We're cool. She's
cool. So then we're trying to move her biggest piece out of the living room.
It's an 8'x15'-ish mural. Large. Heavy. We get it off the wall hooks holding
it up, and she straight up drops her end of it, causing the corner of the
thing I was holding over my head to crash down on my face. The corner landed
straight on my left eye and cut me on the eyebrow before sinking into the eye
itself.

And then she starts screaming again about how this is what I deserve for
disrespecting her art.

At this point, I'm out. I just left. I left my man purse and everything. Did
not care. Just wanted out. Because this woman is crazy.

I had about 5% on my phone at that point, and I tried to get an uber to take
me home. Got a connection to a driver, and my phone died. About this time, I
started feeling really sketchy. Like something was wrong. Not wrong in a "I've
had too much to drink." but more like, "There are probably drugs involved
here." And I don't do drugs.

Uber driver never showed up. I woke up in my apartment about 8 hours later.
Have no idea how I got there. Judging from the way my legs felt, I suspect I
walked the whole way home from Williamsburg to Ditmas Park. My entire face was
caked in blood, and I had to get 6 stitches put in my left eyebrow and a badly
blackened eye. Also ruined my favorite sweater and jeans. I mean, it was a
date. I was dressed up nice.

Bonus points to Uber for charging me the cancellation fee. I get it, they are
not an ambulance service or a medical team. But come on, you have to have a
better solution to a user whose phone dies than, "fuck you. give me five
bucks."

~~~
rajathagasthya
You have good writing skills. Your story, though shocking, had me gripped :)

Did you ever find out why you felt sketchy and why you don't remember how you
got home? Was that because of the injury?

As far as Uber charging cancellation fee, I don't think they have a way to
know if your phone died. For them, it's equivalent to the driver being unable
to contact you.

~~~
ianamartin
Thank you for the compliment. I try to write as well as I can.

I did talk to the woman later to get my man purse back. She straight up
ruffied me. I have no idea for what purpose.

As for Uber seeing stuff, I have some posts below on the topic. I think this
is not a difficult problem to solve.

Actually, what it really boils down to is CAP theorem. Uber is just making the
wrong choices about CAP.

In this case we aren't talking about a networked system in the normal way we
do with distributed database systems. We're talking about a network of people.
How do you handle it when there's a partition event? Uber's default choice is
fuck it. Write one part of the transaction to the database and charge the user
a disconnect fee.

That's not in anyway the correct way to handle a network partition. That's
like if you have an application that receives a message and logs it, but can't
get a response to my callback, and it just says, "Okay. My work here is done."
And then makes a new entry in a table that says the failed callback owes 5
bucks.

That's absolutely stupid and wrong. Network partitions are going to happen.
All the damn time. And if your best mechanism for dealing with them is blame
the callback . . . you have some serious thinking to do. Because that shit is
broken.

~~~
sulam
Ignoring the rest of your story, which is interesting and weird, I think your
analogy to CAP breaks down fast. The driver cannot roll back their time spent.
You called them to a spot, presumably they went there and you weren't there.
They are out their time, it's gone. Any number of bad things could have
happened to you, but the user agreement is that if you don't show, you pay.

~~~
wastedhours
Based on the assumption that he wasn't actually where he was supposed to be.
I've had several cancellations from drivers, when being worse for wear, for
not being where I'm supposed to be even when I've not moved and seen the car
drive past without a phonecall. Probably don't want the hassle of a half-cut
passenger, but it's a nuisance from their end. Do they get a cut of the
charge?

~~~
sulam
I think they do -- and agreed it's a problem when it's their fault. That's
what the call button is for after all.

------
cyphunk
Do Taxi services with employeed drivers simply not exist in the US anymore? So
curious why people complain about how Uber treats their drivers when they
could support Taxi companies that employ drivers. They may even have app's for
generation Y to use for hailing as well.

~~~
throwanem
Taxis cost a lot more, but to make up for it, they provide a much shittier
service.

------
_pmf_
I'd like to say you have hit rock bottom when you treat your employes (or
"independent contractors") like whales in a pay-for-play MMO, but Uber always
finds a way to go lower.

------
kartickv
The article says that some companies have switched to an employee model to
ensure workers are available during peak hours. But there are other ways to do
that:

\- Pay workers more during rush hours, and less during other times. This could
be surge pricing, or the platform choosing to not take a commission during
rush hour, and take a higher commission than normal during off-peak hours.

\- Tell workers they should be available from 8 AM to 11 AM and 5 - 8, at
least four days of every work week, but are free at other times to work or not
work.

I don't think it's necessary to have employees to make them available at
certain times.

------
blr246
There seems to me to be an optimal, market-based solution to this: form a
Rideshare Drivers Alliance, hire brilliant former Uber programmers and data
scientists, and build an app intended to run in the background on drivers'
phones that optimizes for their interests. If you build something awesome, you
should be able to charge millions of drivers a small monthly fee to show them
metrics and data aligned to their interests. The real difficulty​ to overcome
is the information imbalance between drivers and rideshare services.

Edit: typo

------
briandear
"While surges do mitigate shortages, they do so in part by repelling
passengers..."

Supply and demand -- what will those crafty manipulators at Uber dream up
next? The author makes it sound like some kind of voodoo magic.

~~~
throwanem
The point is that Uber would rather mitigate shortages in ways less likely to
impact revenue. An increase in drivers has less bottom-line impact than a
reduction in passengers.

------
MarkMc
TL;DR: here's the list of psychological tricks mentioned in the article:

1\. When driver's are about to log off, it tells them that they are very close
to reaching an earnings target, such as "You are $6 away from making $40 net
earnings". The target is set by Uber, and is always just out of reach.

2\. Uber suggests to drivers that they should go to a certain area for better
chance of finding riders. The article says this might be an example of where
Uber benefits at the expense of drivers because Uber does not prefer surge
pricing.

3\. Uber prompts drivers to accept the next fare opportunity before the
current ride is over.

4\. Uber tells new drivers when they are 50% towards the goal of 25 first
rides. At 25 rides Uber will pay a 'signing on' bonus.

5\. Some Uber employee's would pretend to be women when communicating with the
(overwhelmingly male) drivers.

6\. Lyft did a split test of two different calls to action: (a) "You're losing
$15 per hour by driving on Tuesday mornings instead of Friday evenings"; and
(b) "You would make $15 per hour more by driving on Friday evenings instead of
Tuesday mornings". They found that (a) was more effective, but eventually
decided not to use this approach [for reasons not explained in the article]

7\. Uber provides non-cash rewards to drivers in the form of 'badges' like
"Above and Beyond", "Excellent Service" and "Entertaining Drive". It also
gives drivers stats like how many trips they have taken in the current week,
how much money they have made, how much time they have spent logged on and
what their overall rating from passengers is.

~~~
hn_throw_1234
1) Probably the most manipulative by far. Interesting to learn.

2) Also how driver get the most rides helping to maximize their earnings. In
fact isn't this the whole point of surge in the first place? To push drivers
to high surge areas? I would hardly call this a "psychological trick" and is
very reasonable.

3) How is this a "psychological trick"? This clearly is in the drivers'
benefit as it helps maximize the number of rides they take. All their time
becomes productive if they get dispatched to another trip ahead of their
current trip ending. Also, it's clear this makes Uber more efficient as a
platform as they can treat occupied cars as active supply.

4) Is this not simply providing transparency of the bonuses/incentives Uber is
offering?

5) Weird but even weirder that it works. Not the first time I've heard of
this. Apparently works on emails too. A number of companies use this. A quick
google show's it's well known.

6) Not shocking. Seems like relatively standard A/B testing of copy.

7) Some of this is gamification and some is transparency. All standard.

This article to me largely seems like an attempt to play on the recent many
bad deeds of Uber for a click-bait article that deliberately perturbs some
facts to fit the narrative. This article could very easily have been written
about any other company in the world. But writing it about Uber now, generates
clicks and upvotes.

~~~
manmal
I agree very much with you. I would categorize point 6) as manipulation
though, because it is about choosing wording to change behavior. IMO this
creates stress though, and connecting your service with stress can backfire in
the long term.

~~~
medell
The wording is an example of loss aversion, and has been studied many times in
behavioral psychology. The company's intent is to change behavior (getting the
driver to drive on a different day). Anyone would choose the better outcome.
Is that manipulation? Or optimization? And the driver could benefit from
having this information vs not at all (though of course the company benefits
most of all).

~~~
manmal
I try to view manipulation neutrally. In the end, I think what makes us
despise certain manipulations is a concurrent lack of empathy, or the intent
to only further one's own goals (vs seeking win-win solutions through
manipulation).

Parents manipulate their kids a lot, but with the kids' very best interests in
mind (mostly :)).

------
spectistcles
>"We've underinvested in the driver experience," a senior official said. "We
are now re-examining everything we do in order to rebuild that love."

This is a pretty troubling way to phrase using behavioral science to
manipulate your employees.

~~~
Spooky23
Not employees. Free agents, totally independent contractors.

~~~
r00fus
Who have no control over their work schedule or fares among other things.
They're technically contractors but the super court in California has ruled
otherwise.

~~~
tehlike
they probably control their work schedule, but not fare?

------
NegatioN
That sounds like an extremely creepy evening. Sounds like you got away cheaper
than the worst outcome that night, and that's saying something.

Were there any other signs that things were gonna turn out like they did with
that lady, before the picture escapade?

~~~
ianamartin
I really got nothing. She wasn't any more flaggy than any other woman I've met
on OKCupid who is born and raised in NYC.

I'm starting to think that born and raised in NYC is itself a flag.

~~~
phaed
You should have left the second she freaked out on you over her clothes. That
was the red flag.

~~~
thret
You should have left when you realised it wasn't an euphemism. It is not okay
for her to use first dates as slave labour.

~~~
sprafa
I would not have left. She could just be seeing whether he was a nice guy
before them bangin'. The minute she started yelling, yes, probably. But
before? Why? Because she needed help moving a painting around.

Anyway it all depends on the contents of the conversation, how he request was
made etc.

~~~
nommm-nommm
>She could just be seeing whether he was a nice guy before them bangin'.

^^^ I find it incredibly sexy when someone attractive does me a nice favor.

------
zasz
I'm so sorry but this is hilarious.

~~~
marvin
It's super funny the way date rape is funny.

~~~
ianamartin
Oh tone it down a little bit. I'm an upper middle class white male. I'm pretty
fucking privileged. I was trying to get laid. And I was being stupid. I own my
mistakes here, okay?

It's okay to laugh about it in retrospect.

No one got raped. And I learned a lesson. Sort of. I kind of want to hang out
with her again. That kind of crazy is a little hot.

I mean, sometimes you just need to put your dick in crazy. Even when you know
it's bad idea.

(I'm trolling you, by the way. I can't not troll you. You're like my boss who
hates it when I shoot him in the crotch with a nerf gun in client meetings. I
just have to do it. 38-year-old me will never stop acting like a 12-year-old.
But trolling is nicer than downvoting.)

~~~
debaserab2
Man I dunno call me crazy but I don't care what your demographic privilege is:
getting roofied in a strange part of NYC sounds pretty terrifying and not like
a "laugh it off" moment. It's great that you survived with just a few stitches
and ruined clothes, but that could have ended far worse, no?

Given that there was no consequences for this woman's actions, what are the
chances she did or will do this again to another person?

~~~
unprepare
Man, i dunno call me crazy but policing other people's emotional responses to
events seems insane.

maybe you should take a look at this [1]

/petpeeve

[1][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laughter#Causes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laughter#Causes)

~~~
debaserab2
Dude gets roofied, hit in the face, and walks around bloodied in a city and
it's not okay to say "That's fucked up"?

If common sense triggered my pet peeves that much I'd have to stay out of
internet comments.

~~~
ianamartin
It was fucked up, and there's nothing wrong with saying that.

I don't know, as a pretty recent transplant from Texas to NYC, I find _a lot_
of things to be fucked up here. I have a choice about how to respond. I can
get very deeply upset by how messed up everything is, or I can accept
responsibility for my choices, realize when I've made a bad one, and find some
humor in the situation while I make a mental note to not do _that_ again.

~~~
debaserab2
Sounds like a healthy outlook to have on life. As someone else mentioned,
you're a great writer and compelled my response. My initial response was more
"holy shit that person needs to be locked away" than "you need to be offended
by that".

Did you ever file a police report or anything? Sure, it could be your fault
for getting yourself in that situation, but this person sounds
violent/dangerous.

------
mattbillenstein
Please google Susan Fowler and stop using Uber altogether -- like it really
shouldn't be a debate about how crappy their arrival estimates are at this
point -- they are a company that has no soul.

~~~
nikolasavic
[https://www.susanjfowler.com/blog/2017/2/19/reflecting-on-
on...](https://www.susanjfowler.com/blog/2017/2/19/reflecting-on-one-very-
strange-year-at-uber)

For those that didn't google her. The first hit I got was a blog post about
her sexual harassment at Uber.

After reporting the incident: "I was then told that I had to make a choice:
(i) I could either go and find another team and then never have to interact
with this man again, or (ii) I could stay on the team, but I would have to
understand that he would most likely give me a poor performance review when
review time came around, and there was nothing they could do about that. I
remarked that this didn't seem like much of a choice, and that I wanted to
stay on the team because I had significant expertise in the exact project that
the team was struggling to complete (it was genuinely in the company's best
interest to have me on that team), but they told me the same thing again and
again. One HR rep even explicitly told me that it wouldn't be retaliation if I
received a negative review later because I had been "given an option". I tried
to escalate the situation but got nowhere with either HR or with my own
management chain (who continued to insist that they had given him a stern-
talking to and didn't want to ruin his career over his "first offense")."

~~~
darkkindness
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13682022](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13682022)

Corresponding Hacker News submission.

------
username223
> Some local managers who were men went so far as to adopt a female persona
> for texting drivers, having found that the uptake was higher when they did.
> [...] Uber acknowledged that it had experimented with female personas to
> increase engagement with drivers.

Classic. Men are predictable, and Uber is predictably amoral.

~~~
colmvp
Many, many years ago, when I was thinking of moving, I was looking for salary
ranges for a particular American city. It was pre-Glassdoor so there wasn't a
website that aggregated that information.

I decided to go the HackerNews of that particular industry, except instead of
using my own account, I decided to make a fake one with an avatar of an
attractive but non-famous female. Basically it looked like it was a genuine
personal photograph rather than a professionally shot photo you would've found
in a magazine. I basically posted one post, introducing myself and asked if
anyone had an idea of salary ranges for that city given a specific job
position.

Holy. Crap. The number of replies I got was unbelievable. I think on average
threads on that news site had double digit responses but this one had over
100. I even had people private message me to say they wanted to interview me
despite not including any links to a personal website or resume.

~~~
YCode
When I sign up for services where the goal is to get tech support (i.e.
StackExchange, Discord, Slack) I use a female persona.

I've had to explain to a few people (including my wife) that it's not a gender
confusion thing at all, it's purely for the perks.

It's ridiculous how far people will go to help a "woman" online.

~~~
chipperyman573
Does this actually work on SO? You don't see the avatar until after you read
both the title AND the problem (since it's at the bottom of the page instead
of alongside it). Plus, the avatar is very tiny. I feel like most people would
either have a solution by the time they finish reading or they won't, but a
female picture wouldn't change that.

(Serious question by the way, this is an interesting idea)

~~~
stouset
They might have an answer to the question in their heads, but whether or not
they choose to type it up and submit is a different question.

------
known
Thank you for TL;DR

Machiavellianism (willingness to manipulate and deceive others), Narcissism
(egotism and self-obsession), Psychopathy (lack of remorse and empathy),
Sadism (pleasure in suffering of others);

~~~
wingerlang
> Psychopathy (lack of remorse and empathy), Sadism (pleasure in suffering of
> others)

Where did you get these from? Especially the second one.

~~~
blablabla123
Actually the second one is connected to the former. I'm too lazy to cite a
reference but there is evidence that psychopaths feel relaxed when others are
not. (There are a few popular documentaries about that one Youtube) Of course
'psychopath' is a spectrum, so this doesn't mean Uber management consists of
complete psychopaths. Actually there are clinical psychopaths that end up
being altruistic - obviously not in this case though.

~~~
wingerlang
> Actually the second one is connected to the former.

Sure, but I am asking where it even came from to begin with. Like sadism, what
bullet point does it apply to on the top comment?

> .. but there is evidence that psychopaths feel relaxed when others are not.

Also, sure it might be true but why do you even bring this point into the
discussion? Does the article or comment mention anything about "calmness" (or
similar)? I didn't find it but I might be missing.

~~~
blablabla123
I guess when looking at the articles about Uber from this years that made it
onto the front page here, we are seeing a pattern of unethical behaviour. Even
Uber admitted that something like this exists by letting go one Executive and
planning to transform the company into a more benevolent direction.

Why do people repeatedly do things that are bad for others and generally
considered unethical, likely even being aware of that? In my opinion this
needs no further explanation.

