
The Social Credit System in China [video] - DyslexicAtheist
https://media.ccc.de/v/35c3-9904-the_social_credit_system
======
jpatokal
A lot of the comments here seem to be based on speculation, not the actual
content of the video. A few key points:

* There is no one system (which is why the title is "The" Social Credit System, the scare quotes are there on purpose!), but ~70 local experiments, with the talk focusing on three of these (~19:45)

* Alibaba's Sesame/Zhima system is _not_ government-accredited (~26:00) and has a lot of shopping/loyalty card features (pay with Alipay, earn points!)

* The current systems have many crippling flaws, like rich people being trivially able to buy their way to good scores to paper over their sins (~35:00)

* Some type of nationwide system is likely to be rolled out nationally at some point, but the details are still very fuzzy (~49:00)

~~~
thetechlead
Living in China and lived in the US. In general the credit systems in China
aren't much different from those of the US.

* There is no one system (which is why the title is "The" Social Credit System, the scare quotes are there on purpose!), but ~70 local experiments, with the talk focusing on three of these (~19:45)

There isn't a central one. To be fair many credit systems exist for a while,
for example financial credits from banks, traffic violation credit from DOT,
airplane/train black-list, Dang'an system (rongcheng), etc. All of them aren't
much different from their western counterparts, with one exception (Dang'an).

* Alibaba's Sesame/Zhima system is not government-accredited (~26:00) and has a lot of shopping/loyalty card features (pay with Alipay, earn points!)

Worked in Alibaba before and can confirm. Not government-accredited and not
much different from a financial credit score, though much more commercial
institutes are adapting it. For example, you don't need to pay deposit when
opening a bike sharing account if you sesame score is above a threshold.

* The current systems have many crippling flaws, like rich people being trivially able to buy their way to good scores to paper over their sins (~35:00)

Not true for the majority but there's one exception. You can pay others to
'deduct' your traffic violation points. However it's not exactly buying way to
good scores. Let me explain. In China violation is caught on traffic camera
99% of the time, while in the US most tickets are issued by a police officer.
Thus the violation is issued on the vehicle since there's no way to identify
who's the driver from camera footage. So people literally can claim someone
else is driving the vehicle and points will be deducted from their account.
Everyone has 12 points, refreshed every year. Most time that's enough to cover
minor incidents.

* Some type of nationwide system is likely to be rolled out nationally at some point, but the details are still very fuzzy (~49:00)

There's proposal but I think it's both stupid and infeasible to design such a
score. And various credit scores are already implemented and functioning,
there's no need to get a new one.

~~~
est
There is a central one actually, 失信人名单[1], maintained by the judicial branch.
Other credit scores can be used as evidence on a court.

Recently ZTE lost a case and its legal representative was on that list. If you
are doing business in China, make sure checkout that list first. You can
search for both corporations and citizens. Actually personally I think if
Chinese stole so many IPs, western companies should embrace the system to
fight dishonest Chinese companies.

But it's certainly _not_ Zhima/sesame credit.

[1]: [http://zxgk.court.gov.cn/shixin/](http://zxgk.court.gov.cn/shixin/)

~~~
thetechlead
Thanks. Didn't know this.

Looks like breach of contract is the main reason to get on that list and most
listed personals are legal representative of a company.

------
oldoverholt
It's strange to me that the social credit system in China seems to rarely be
discussed alongside credit scores in the United States, an already existing,
massively opaque, punitive system that keeps people in cycles of debt and
poverty.

~~~
mc32
Are they equitable? There is some resemblance, but it's different enough.

Let's put it this way, despite the ills of the US Credit Bureaux, I would want
the Chinese Social Credit system much less. Even with no credit, one can still
get on a train, it does not affect what schools you can put your kids in, or
penalize my spot in a gov't queue.

~~~
oldoverholt
Credit score absolutely affects what neighborhoods you can buy or rent in (so
public schools) and whether you can afford private school. It’s obviously not
a 1:1 comparison or “this one is better than the other,” but when like Bill
Kristol is floating the idea of regime change in China in response to news
about the social credit system, I think it’s important to do some reflecting
on our own oppressive systems.

~~~
mc32
It's not a direct comparison. I think it's a bit of a stretch. Of course, not
having money means you can't afford housing in a good school district, but if
you happen to be poor or have bad credit but live in a good district (or
borrow a relatives address) you can still put that kid in the district school.
Basically, it's not a direct result. The most obvious difference is my
_knowing_ someone with a bad score does not lower my score by loose
association.

Kristol is a war hawk, like many of the other conservative in name Neo-Cons.
Glad their influence is now on the wane. What China is doing is not good, in
many cases, but it's their problem and they can sort them out like they did in
'49 and '66-'67.

Somewhat more comparable is the German Schufa system --but it's till not the
same.

~~~
oldoverholt
It’s not direct, but the result can be the same (and it’s not just about being
poor, it’s about a low credit score meaning you get shitty loan terms or a
landlord isn’t willing to rent to you). I won’t defend the social credit
system, but I do think there are enough parallels with credit scores that it’s
worth mentioning in the interest of getting some justice in that area.

~~~
chii
credit score is purely financial. It "purely" indicates how likely you're
going to default on your loans.

A social "credit score" system is a way to control the behaviour of people in
a society - by those who deem the control necessary for "the greater good".

They are different classes of things - a financial credit score can be
improved if your finances improve (by luck or by hardwork). A social credit
score can't be improved unless you change your person/beliefs.

~~~
ouid
it's not _purely_ financial. If you're a tenant and you get in a non-financial
dispute with your landlord, for instance, your credit score can be affected
easily.

~~~
dwild
> in a non-financial dispute with your landlord, for instance, your credit
> score can be affected easily

How?

~~~
ouid
eviction

~~~
chii
only if you refuse to pay the rent.

~~~
oldoverholt
Virtually every state lets landlords evict you for no reason at all.

------
ConfusedDog
The "driving point system" is very ubiquitous in China.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_system_(driving)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_system_\(driving\))
It is also very common in the states and other countries. Funny thing is, in
China, offenders can "buy" points from other people so that they still can
drive. I wonder if that would work for this "social credit system" as well at
some point...

~~~
neom
In the social credit system you can indeed show up to government-run booths
and pay to have your points changed, the government says the cash goes to
charity.

~~~
ConfusedDog
In that case, it would just be fines for violating their "code of conduct," a
revenue stream for the government... nothing really changed. Bad&&poor people
get poorer, might become less bad. Bad&&rich people might be "badder" because
they can afford it. So, ended up with a society with really rich villains and
docile peasants?

~~~
jahbrewski
Isn't this largely how society plays out already, albeit less explicitly? From
what little I know of our legal system (I'm in the US), it isn't too hard to
buy yourself a great lawyer and get out of significant legal trouble.

------
neom
Vice did a pretty interesting mini-doc about it a couple of weeks ago:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dkw15LkZ_Kw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dkw15LkZ_Kw)

~~~
dayaz36
This is very one sided. Only shows the opinions of people that support the
system even though vast majority do not. Seems like Vice is doing propaganda
for China's Orwellian/Black Mirroresque system

~~~
chillacy
A rejection by comparison to dystopian fiction is like saying "welfare is
turning us into Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged" or "capitalism is ending up like
Rapture in Bioshock". A lotta slippery slopes and ideology.

------
anonymousab
The fun part will be extending it to track and apply to foreigners, even
outside of China.

It's a very small thing to make people second-guess a critical blog post or
Reddit comment about China in case they ever want to visit or do business with
a company that has any Chinese presence.

~~~
tivert
> The fun part will be extending it to track and apply to foreigners, even
> outside of China.

> It's a very small thing to make people second-guess a critical blog post or
> Reddit comment about China in case they ever want to visit or do business
> with a company that has any Chinese presence.

That would be difficult to extend to activity in non-cooperative regimes.
China has been working to de-anonymize internet access by making phone numbers
traceable to national ID numbers, network connections/IP addresses traceable
to phone numbers [1], and forum posts traceable to IP addresses.

I think it's unlikely that they'd be able to _automatically_ trace a
pseudonymous post on reddit made by an American in the US to a particular US
passport number to factor reddit posts into a social credit score at a large
scale.

However, they might be able to do it for public posts on a real-name policy
site like Facebook. With facial recognition and a real name, they could
probably reliably match an account to a passport to sanction posts they
dislike. They'd probably be fine with any false positives due to fake
accounts, etc.

[1] e.g. to connect to airport wifi, the landing page asks for your (local)
cell number, and texts you a code for access.

~~~
godelski
Most people reuse usernames.

~~~
tivert
That kinda misses the point. Pseudo-anonymous accounts can be doxxed based on
personal idiosyncrasies (like username reuse), but not at scale (yet).

------
walrus01
Every year the US State Department publishes a report on human rights in
China:
[https://www.state.gov/documents/organization/277317.pdf](https://www.state.gov/documents/organization/277317.pdf)

and every year the Chinese government publishes a report on how terrible the
United States is in regards to human rights:

[http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-04/24/c_137133826.htm](http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-04/24/c_137133826.htm)

It's interesting to see the very different perspective of both agencies. Both
countries have significant problems.

~~~
danbolt
What’s your take of China’s reports on the US, compared to vice versa?

------
miguelrochefort
As much as I like the idea of a social credit score, their implementation is
absurdly naive. Not to mention centralized and authoritarian.

Do they really think they can manually craft a fair and balanced system, when
they arbitrarily decide that jaywalking costs a person 10 points?

They use the same unidimensional score affected by jaywalking to assess a
person's ability to pay debt? What could possibly go wrong.

They should keep collecting data about people, but they should rethink the way
they attribute scores. Ideally, a person's score should be calculated based on
the values and preferences of the perceiver. The score of Donald Trump, for
example, could differ significantly depending on who you ask.

~~~
anonymousab
It does not need to be fair or balanced to accomplish their primary goal.

They do not need to care about edge cases - a citizen unfairly falling through
the cracks is just as unimportant as any other citizen, so the gestalt effect
matters more.

------
smdyc1
This can only be a means for the Chinese Communist Party to exert more
authoritarian control over it's population. Depending on the actual
implementation, I'd compare this to East Germany except in this case, the
social credit system replaces the Stasi and their network of informers. If
there is no way to opt out of such a system then freedom of thought and action
are potentially gone. My question is, how do they justify such a system when
the only apparent threat is to the Chinese Communist Party's waning influence
and control in this information age.

~~~
ep103
I asked a Chinese national friend of mine. He said that the system sounded
good, because it would decrease the rate of crime.

When I brought up privacy concerns, social concerns, etc, he looked at me like
I was talking Swahili. I tried bringing up the Stasi, and he didn't know what
I was talking about. 1984, had never read it. Secret police... they apparently
only go after bad people.

The sorts of things you're talking about are genuinely not on the radar of the
average person over there. It would require education they specifically and
intentionally don't have. (And, if I were to guess, are encouraged never to
learn)

~~~
walrus01
The average mainland Chinese person who attended their public school system
will simply not be aware of a great many historical events, such as:

The Stasi

Romanians lynching Ceaușescu

Tiennamen Square (they'll know it exists as an innocent landmark in the
capital, not the history of what happened there)

1984 and the whole genre of dystopian police-state literature

~~~
theseadroid
Chinese here. I dont wanna argue about other misinformation this thread have
presented so far but just one thing: Access to the book 1984. jd.com is like
amazon equivalent in mainland China (amazon.cn has less traffic there)

Searching 1984 returns:
[http://search.jd.com/Search?keyword=1984&enc=utf-8&wq=1984&p...](http://search.jd.com/Search?keyword=1984&enc=utf-8&wq=1984&pvid=4619e0e60c4d4f8bbc611b9028f834de)

the first item has 93k reviews. On taobao (by alibaba) the search results are:
[https://www.taobao.com/list/product/1984%E5%A5%A5%E5%A8%81%E...](https://www.taobao.com/list/product/1984%E5%A5%A5%E5%A8%81%E5%B0%94.htm)

I dont know where you get the idea that average mainland Chinese person who
attended their public school system (we dont really have a private school
system yet, for better or worse) are not aware of those things.

~~~
tivert
>> Access to the book 1984. jd.com is like amazon equivalent in mainland China
(amazon.cn has less traffic there)

> I dont know where you get the idea that average mainland Chinese person who
> attended their public school system...are not aware of those things.

I just asked my Chinese friend, and they haven't heard of _1984_ and report
that they mainly read textbooks in high school or college. They didn't read
novels because they weren't tested on that material.

I would guess that mainland Chinese people are less aware of dystopian, anti-
authoritarian novels like _1984_ than Americans, even if they are available,
if only because those books are commonly part of US high-school curriculums
and not Chinese curriculums.

~~~
posterboy
You might be surprised to learn that they don't know Star Wars either, or
Dallas, or Moby Dick.

I met many visiting students, e.g. from India or Bangladesh, who do not know
Star Wars, which was kind of a reality check for me, for how deep in a bubble
we live.

~~~
chillacy
Yea talk about a bubble: how many Americans know the romance of the three
kingdoms or the monkey king? At this point people are just talking past each
other, instead of trying to see the cultural factors of another person.

------
rblion
Just like in 'Black Mirror'.

------
org3432
The Chinese are formalizing it and adding the system to places that haven't
been too political in the past, but the west has its own unwritten social
credit system and if you don't figure it out and kowtow to it then you're
secretly penalized.

e.g. Cross an insecure manager or exec in your company by saying something
that's true and better for the company, you'll get dingined without knowing
it. Focus solely on learning at school and not enough on figuring out the game
too, there again you're going against the system.

~~~
ribs
You’re comparing a) word of mouth that might spread across parts of a company,
maybe a little further, impacting you when you apply for a job, to b) a
nationwide, government-run system that will be involved in a wide variety of
life situations. A) and b) are of wildly different scope, formality, import.

~~~
zandl
If you’re black for example, you’re treated like you have a low score, yet you
can’t do anything about it.

------
evdubs
As a completely unverified anecdote perhaps related to the Social Credit
System (and more so the amount of information being collected and distributed
in China), my SO recently told me about her Dad's attempt to order pizza. It
went something like:

SO Dad: Hi, I'd like to get a large supreme pizza

Pizza Op: Hello, SO Dad. I can help you with your order. Is the food being
delivered to 123 Main St?

SO Dad: Yes.

Pizza Op: And can I call you at 123-4567 when the food is delivered?

SO Dad: Yes.

Pizza Op: Ok. I see that you are reported to have high cholesterol. Can I
perhaps interest you in a vegetarian pizza?

SO Dad: Okay. That's fine.

Pizza Op: And I see that you have a family of 5 people. Should I add another
pizza to the order?

SO Dad: Sure.

Pizza Op: Alright, that will be $30. Will you be using the payment information
we have on file?

SO Dad: Yes, please.

Pizza Op: One moment ... Sir, the payment information we have is not working.

SO Dad: I can't see why that is. I drive a nice car. Can you try again?

Pizza Op: I tried again and it did not work. I see you are 100m away from our
store. Can you just come down and pay in cash?

SO Dad: Ok. I can do that.

Pizza Op: Great! The pizza will be ready in 20 minutes. Please pick it up
then. Good bye.

Again, this is unverified and I don't know if she embellished parts of the
story, but the idea that a pizza clerk can pull up your location, family
information, and brief health record so easily is shocking. I suppose
customers talking to clerks at restaurants they frequent will be able to glean
some of this information over time, but the impression I got was that this was
a "first time" order and the clerk was able to just look all of this up.

~~~
david-gpu
Can anybody please offer any primary sources to back up these claims?

~~~
gammateam
Its an old meme against obamacare when it was merely a campaign promise

Ive seen this video on youtube back in like 2008

~~~
evdubs
Just clarified with my SO. I am an idiot. This is the case. Sorry, all.

------
miguelrochefort
I'm probably the only person I know who believes that privacy is unsustainable
and overrated, and that a social credit system is unavoidable and massively
underrated.

I have never understood people's obsession with privacy, Orwell's 1984, etc.
It always seemed motivated by selfishness and irrational fear.

For the longest time, I've been wondering what was wrong with me. Why don't
other people share my preference for transparency and efficiency? Why is
everyone trying to make things more difficult for people around them?

Then I discovered China. It seemed like WeChat and Sesame Credit were what I
had been looking for all these years. How come don't we have these things in
the west? Why are we so conservative and technophobe?

I quickly realized that WeChat and Sesame Credit were poor (centralized,
authoritarian) implementations of great visions. It is now overwhelmingly
clear to me that we need a decentralized version of WeChat and Sesame Credit.
This would be the greatest innovation since the invention of the Internet.

Yet, I can't seem to find anyone willing or capable to appreciate these ideas.
What am I missing?

~~~
IanHalbwachs
It fills me with existential dread to know that there are smart people out
there who don't see this as an atrocity waiting to happen. I'll go ahead and
guess that you've never suffered at the hands of a capricious authority
figure.

Maybe think of privacy like closet space? You might not need what you have
right now, but you wouldn't want to share it with the world either, would you?

~~~
Viker
But privacy is a very arbitrary and usually differs from culture to culture.

~~~
abc-xyz
The desire for privacy is universally shared by people across all countries.
Sadly not everyone understands how technology works and how online privacy
violations affect them, their loved ones and strangers.

Not to mention when you're stuck living in a shithole then fighting for
privacy might not be your biggest concern (especially when doing so is likely
to put you in great danger).

