
The secret to a higher salary is to ask for nothing at all - robdoherty2
http://qz.com/77020/the-secret-to-a-higher-salary-is-to-ask-for-nothing-at-all/
======
scotch_drinker
Throughout my career and my life I've followed this strategy disparagingly
called being a doormat below. I have a friend who has followed the opposite
strategy, always asking for and fighting for the most he can squeeze out of an
employer and life. Strangely, I have often been paid more, been given more
benefits and been generally happier. I think this works because unlike what
many people seem to think, the other side aren't typically sociopaths trying
to squeeze the last drop of blood out of the employees. But they will respond
that way when pushed.

People generally have a solid understanding of what is fair and what isn't.
When we start a negotiation from a point of unfairness and unreasonableness,
both sides are then on the defensive which anyone who has read Dale Carnegie
knows is a recipe for failure. I'm not sure I buy into the OP's idea of asking
for $0 since that's just as unreasonable but it's unreasonable in a way that
brings the other side closer instead of pushing them away. If you sincerely
say you want to work for what you make, the majority of people will want to
give you what you deserve. Are there people out there who will immediately try
to screw you? Yes but that happens, you get as far away from them as possible.
And if you can't recognize those people, you have far bigger problems than
learning how to maximize your negotiations.

Negotiations seems to work best when they are discussions, not attempts to get
the most of of the other side. Of course, if you're working for a boss who
used to be a used car salesman or a sociopath, by all means, be prepared to
have to fight for everything you want. And be prepared to be miserable to
boot.

~~~
pakitan
Are you and your friend working in the same field and having the same
capabilities? I'm pretty sure a brilliant "doormat" programmer will make more
than, say, an average "maximizer" salesman.

~~~
svachalek
I was with you until the example. At any company I've ever worked at that had
both sales and engineering, the salesfolks were making 50%-100% more. And
those are the typical negotiating strategies of each group.

~~~
czbond
Exactly. At a software company, the sales people are paid dramatically more.
At one company I was at, the new salesman made more than the CTO.

~~~
matwood
Well the adage is, the closer you are to where money comes into the company
the more you can make. Most sales jobs are also commission based which means
if a sales person is making a lot of money the company also made a lot of
money.

~~~
czbond
I agree - I would rather pay sales guys all day. I tell each that I'd love to
keep writing them big checks, as big as I can make them.

------
Filligree
"Seventeen years later, I'm still with the same firm."

This isn't a small sample, it's a _single_ sample. It barely qualifies as an
anecdote. OP just had the good luck to find a good company and recruiter.

~~~
mijustin
I also wonder if his situation is unique to his industry:

He works in the "securities industry as a proprietary trader and hedge fund
manager".

------
rayiner
He didn't ask for nothing. He asked for zero salary along with the highest
profit sharing percentage in the industry. He works as a prop trader and hedge
fund manager, so his value delivered is totally quantifiable. In othe words,
he offered to take on more risk in exchange for a higher percentage return in
a business where it's hard for your employer to be dishonest about exactly how
much value you delivered.

~~~
marshray
It also seems like the type of business where effective game-theoretic methods
that maximize positive cashflow are going to be valued higher than, say,
teamwork and team loyalty.

~~~
Pwnguinz
But aren't teamwork and team loyalty just two means to the same end--which is
to maximize profits. So why does it matter that it's a type of business that
only value the end instead of the means?

Reminds me of designer friends of mine that constantly harp on about their
'design process'--but, do your users like your product in the end or not?
That's the key. The process is merely _a_ means to an end (there are many
means in business, but generally one end: profit). If the end sucks, the means
is worth very little (it's only worth is as a lesson in what _not_ to do).

~~~
marshray
You want the job don't you? The job involves working with people.

Here's how that negotiation would go with any hiring process I've ever worked
with:

"So Mr. Pwnguinz, what are your salary requirements?"

"On this piece of paper I've written down the least I would work for. Now you
please write down the most you are prepared to offer a perfect person,
irrespective of whether I am that person or not. Then we shall exchange
papers."

"This is highly irregular."

"If after exchanging papers, we find that your number is less than mine then
we can save time."

Two ways I see this going:

A. "Thank you for your time Mr. Pwnguinz".

B. The hiring manager writes down what they were considering as an initial
offer, you write down $0, and you become an HR office legend.

------
Wonderdonkey
Here's another, equally replicable secret to a higher salary: Go for a walk.
Run into a billionaire. You both get knocked down. Tell the billionaire to
watch where he's walking. The billionaire stands up, says, "Hey, kid, you got
moxie. I'm now going to hire you at twice your current salary." Say, "That's
insulting." The billionaire responds, "All right, make it quadruple your
current salary." Enjoy your new career and 4x pay raise!

It's that simple.

------
mpeg
This seems like the secret to get paid minimum wage.

~~~
Kequc
Just keep demanding they pay you less, go lower man!

------
don_draper
I think HN is reaching a tipping point with spam on this one.

~~~
niggler
You are rewarded for using Ghostery and other anti-spam measures when reading
HN

~~~
Throwadev
What do you mean? Would Ghostery have blocked this post, or the article it
links to?

~~~
niggler
In my experience, likelihood of spam content is correlated with number of ads
or tracking cookies (the indicator number in ghostery). I expect posts with
more than 5 tracking cookies/ads to be spam

(and yes, techcrunch rings in at 15, and almost all of their content is
garbage)

------
jellicle
> "Brooke Allen has worked for 30 years in the securities industry as a
> proprietary trader and hedge fund manager."

Let me translate:

"Brooke Allen has worked for thirty years in a industry dedicated to fleecing
the stupid rich. Hedge funds uniformly deliver lower-than-average returns with
high volatility, but high payouts to the staff involved sucking from other
people's money. Mr. Allen believes that working in an extremely-well-paid
industry where he managed to get extremely-well-paid makes him a good salary
negotiator."

------
bane
Okay, this is a very interesting article with a high risk approach used by
somebody who hasn't ever had to change jobs so comes from the point of view of
somebody with a single data point. I'm not saying disregard it, just
that...your mileage will vary. As an employer, I'd never ever play these games
with a prospect.

As an employee, I've used a different approach (note: this is not intended to
be reflected on the very strange environment of a startup, but on more
established businesses)

When you start the job, ask for a salary that you'd be happy with, in fact
give them $5-7 thousand dollar range with your ideal salary somewhere on that
range (usually on the low end), and would stay happy with so long as it
continued to rise at a reasonable percentage slightly higher than inflation.
You also get information based on where they come in on your range.

The very first time you get a pay raise under that percentage or that doesn't
keep up with inflation? Change jobs. If your pay raise isn't even keeping up
with inflation, congratulations your reward for your last year's work is a de
facto pay cut. That's what your employer thinks about you. Time to leave,
period.

In one case I secured a better paying job in another part of the company, gave
my intent to leave and was given a counter offer with a promotion and a double
digit pay raise that beat where I was going. I told them that if I stayed, I
would be committing to 12 more months, if my pay raise was again unacceptable
I would leave. The next year the raise was below inflation, and I left for a
much better job.

If the economy is good, give yourself a raise when changing jobs, treat it
like a promotion, give yourself two years worth of pay raises for the new job
when getting down to salary negotiations.

If you get promoted, expect at least two years worth of pay increase
percentages. If you don't receive that, it's not a promotion, it's just more
work for you. Never take-on additional responsibility without additional
reward.

If they don't ask for your salary requirement, see what they offer, if it's
low don't feel afraid to point that out and ask for a more realistic salary.
In many cases I've worked in expensive cities, in small offices, that are part
of very large companies in different states. Their salary expectations may be
great where their HQ is, but might stink in the city. Point that out.

I've also worked in places where the yearly raise percentages reduce as your
pay increases. So a starting employee on a starting salary might easily see
double digit increases year over year, while an experienced employee might
barely keep up with inflation. They struggled to keep experienced talent
around.

If you're offered a choice between a small bonus and a pay raise, take the pay
raise. That increased base pay _makes a difference forever_. Say the bonus is
$5000 and the pay raise amounts to $2000 the next year. In three years it's
worth $6000. In ten it's worth $20000 _even if you never get another pay raise
again_. It's pretty much the best guaranteed investment you can ever make.
Now, consider that it'll become part of your base pay history that you then
make raises off of, which are percents of your salary, that raise is worth
even more! Employers know this and try and convert pay increases into bonuses
all the time, it's a one time payment that then gets off their books if they
have a bad year the next year. Don't fall for it. There are exceptions,
extraordinarily large bonuses shouldn't be turned down of course.

One you accept a salary (this includes your pay increase), commit to working
there for at least 12 months. It can suck sometimes, but long term it looks
better on your resume. I've typically put in 3-5 years at most places. I've
never had to have one of those "why did you leave this prior employer after 3
months?" discussions, but I have had to have "why did you leave this place
after working there so long?". In this market, working too short or too long
can be unusual. The employee who's working someplace for 17 years and then
suddenly wants to change jobs is a red flag. It wasn't boredom that made them
change their job, any job is boring after a few years. Getting to 17 means
they can beat that problem. _Something else_ happened.

Following this plan, Over the last 18 or so years, starting out with a yearly
pay of under $18k, I've managed to get consistent pay increases that are more
than double inflation while working for bigCos, year over year pay increases
of 15 to 20% have not been uncommon (if you aren't too stuck to a single
company). I'm not "rich" by any means, but I live a _very_ comfortable boring
suburban life free from any debt beyond a rapidly disappearing mortgage on a
very comfortable home with enough left over for lots of overseas travel every
year. In about 5-6 years I'll have paid off my home, gone completely debt
free, and then will literally have more money than I can spend in a normal
day-to-day life. I still have to work, but I rarely have to think much about
what things will cost when going out shopping. I went to normal boring state
school for university, and have managed to consistently make (or grow my
salary faster) than every single one of my peers who went to a "better
school". Any advantage they had starting out has more than disappeared over
the years.

Startups are a very different beast. And I know that alot of this won't be
popular with the startup founders here ;)

#1 Don't accept a bad salary. You'll get all the lines about equity and stock
options etc. In the end, unless you are one of the first employees and you
happen to hit the lottery and end up at the next billion dollar company, your
equity will be worth at or less than most normal bonus packages you'd receive
anyway if it's worth anything at all. Take a normal salary. A company with
good funding shouldn't squawk at paying their people decent salaries. But you
might take a small hit on the salary. Keep a mental note of what this hit is
if you go back to a BigCo. Correct for it, act like you were paid the higher
amount, when negotiating your new salary with BigCo.

#2 You are very tied to the ups and downs of the company. Expect not to get a
pay raise from time to time, especially in the early days until the company
starts making a profit. If the goal of the company is not to make a profit and
that you'll get your reward out of options, consider your payout divided by
the number of years you'll have to put in and see if that makes you happy.
Consider what would happen if the payout is $0.

#3 If the business booms, time to renegotiate your salary. Sometimes the
company hits super profitability, point out that you took a smaller salary to
get the company through the lean years and now it's no longer lean. If you
went multiple years without a pay increase, expect the first increase to be
unusually large (to make up for it) and future increases to be more normal.

#4 Don't accept ridiculous paycaps. They're stupid. A couple very well known
startups cap their employee pay at $120k. One I know of hasn't paid raises for
years. The employees who took a pittance first-out-of-college salary are still
getting paid that 3,4 and 5 years later -- but now many are married and quite
a few are having kids. Their company recently advertised that their valuation
is nearing double digit billions (but now in their 5th or 6th funding round
with no public plans to sell or go public so equity these days is almost
worthless). Does that sound right?

Remember, what's your payout going to be divided by years. Suppose bigCo buys
this startup tomorrow, many of those employees might see a sweet $150k payout.
Or $30k per year for 5 years of work. Suppose their starting salary was $50k
that means they've been working for $80k the entire time. Instead of 5 lean
years they could have had 5 satisfied pay years elsewhere.

Even worse, when moving on to another company, especially a bigCo, their
suppressed salary puts them way down at the bottom of the pay scale. It's
"diseased" their future salary prospects. Just like taking a small raise
instead of a bonus "boosts" your future salary prospects, they've managed the
inverse...and because the caps and pay policy of this startup are very
publicly known, they can't negotiate or talk their way it.

#5 All is not lost, perks are awesome, figure out how much it would cost you
out of pocket _for the perks you use_ and then figure that into your total
compensation. Some places are receptive to "my total compensation at my last
place was $xyz, but I'm looking for a different kind of mix of $qrzw". These
are more complicated, but you can say "my last employer gave me about $5k a
year in perks that I used. I'd rather have that as salary here". It's
reasonable, even if not every place is receptive to it.

~~~
bconway
_Don't accept ridiculous paycaps. They're stupid. A couple very well known
startups cap their employee pay at $120k. One I know of hasn't paid raises for
years._

That is startling. Is this a popular thing in the Valley?

~~~
rdouble
I worked at a startup in NYC that had a $200K pay cap. It applied to everyone,
including executives. However, I believe they abandoned the policy because it
made it too hard to hire.

------
coldtea
> _"I explained that my goal is to live a debt-free life, and therefore I
> wanted to give value before receiving compensation."_

Really, "live a debt free life" by letting other people pile HUGE debts on
you?

So the top dogs get lear jets, nice Jaguars and golden parachutes with the
fruits of the work you and others like you contribute, since they get to keep
all the extra profits off of your work (besides those needed to keep the
company going and moving forward).

If you really want to eliminate debt, eliminate it on BOTH sides.

------
ryanmarsh
I am a "taker" and, strangely, I love this approach. Why? Because this
strategy leaves both parties feeling the opposite of driving off a used car
lot (where someone got squeezed, and someone did the squeezing). Yet, it
maximizes value.

For most of my career I've made more than my peers, simply because I asked,
and asked, and asked. More often than not, when I asked my salary went up.
It's that simple. The problem is that eventually my employers have begun to
felt a little squeezed and when a rough spot came around, that smoldering
ember lit a fire that sometimes ended with me leaving the company. It's not
easy being the highest paid person in the company by a margin of 30%. I don't
say that to boast. I mean it. Theres a massive expectation placed upon you.

I think I'll use this new negotiation strategy in the future instead.

------
mijustin
Part of what the OP is saying is true: I've been rewarded by employers
(especially at the beginning) by working hard, not making demands, and
delivering more "value" than I received in compensation.

Working hard and delivering more value than your receive is generally a good
strategy.

However, eventually you will need to learn the art of asking for things:
raises, benefits, etc... In my experience the squeaky wheel DOES get the
grease.

~~~
MicahWedemeyer
Imagine two people working hard, doing their best. Imagine their boss, also
working hard, too busy to stop and think about the future. One day, one of the
workers asks the boss for a raise and a promotion. The other worker just
assumes his hard work will be noticed and rewarded.

Who do you think gets the raise? The boss makes the easy decision and goes
with the person who asked for it.

I've seen it happen time and again. You can either cry that the world is
unfair, or just be the person who asks for what you want.

~~~
mijustin
Exactly. This has been my experience as well (especially in companies with no
set process for salary reviews).

------
cynusx
tl;dr employers will like you if you tie all your compensation with
performance. For some positions this is a good thing when you have control
over the outcome and you're confident you're upto par. Sales and trading for
example are good areas as the performance is easy to quantify. Creative
professions... not so much.

------
fghh45sdfhr3
This seems like a very long way to describe the very old advice of never being
the first to say a number. There are better articles online, specific to
salary negotiation and how to refuse to give a number without being a dick
about it.

~~~
GFischer
I hadn't realized, but you're right, he got them to give the number first.

Also, as many pointed out, the authors' industry is VERY special.

------
Stranger2013
Reason for posting on HN: "come to our start-up and work for free. We will
compensate. Maybe. Sometime. See that one hedgie-trader did that and was OK!"

~~~
Ixiaus
Almost everyone is cynical in the comments today...must be the weather.

I actually found the article interesting; sure the author didn't test his
theory over multiple jobs but one might argue that his approach was SO
SUCCESSFUL that he deemed it worth staying there for 17 years (and likewise
for the company).

The method sounds like a doormat approach (particularly the title, but it's
meant to grab your attention) but what it really is doing is forcing both
parties to be _honest about what they want_. Which, honestly, is a pretty
smart move because it engages a less exploitive psychology in both parties and
reveals _what the true value to be provided is_.

~~~
coldtea
> _Almost everyone is cynical in the comments today...must be the weather._

Or the cynicism inducing post?

------
drsim
I'm certainly going to try this in future negotiations. However I'm sceptical
that a prospective client/customer is going to show their hand by revealing
(albeit on a swapped piece of paper) their maximum bid in many cases.

No-one wants to pay the maximum for any commodity. It runs contrary to game
theory.

------
zuppy
I strongly disagree with this. If you think that you can bring a good value to
a company, you should price yourself at a premium level. If you don't believe
in yourself, why would you expect the company to do that? After you get hired,
every raise will be based on your current salary (so a 5% increase of a higher
starting point will get you to a higher salary). After that, the only way to
have a significant raise is to change jobs. At least this is what I've noticed
in my case.

I know what I'm doing, I'm good at that and I know that it's hard for
companies to find good people (most of them either lack experience or they
simple don't care about the quality of their code). Why shouldn't I ask for
more? I care about the job I'm doing and I'm expecting the same thing from my
employer.

------
DSingularity
A job where I can swing that type of contract and have the onus completely on
me to prove my worth sounds perfect. The sad reality is that it seems like in
my field of work the dependencies on others is enough to make such a move very
risky. From my experiences I can imagine a few situations which of results in
a "you didn't have a good year" kind of reward even though it wasn't my fault
and I truly did the best that anybody could have.

When your work in a job that requires leverage and you have dependencies you
need your entire dependency chain to do their job so yours can be judged
accurately.

------
stkni
The article says that the OP 'developed an approach'. If I'm to believe that
this is a technique, and not just a fortunate hiring for employee and
employer, then there would need to be more examples of how this works, not
just one.

From the content of the article alone it seems like finding a good employer
might be a way of securing a good salary. No shit.

------
jondot
This theory should be strongly coupled to a culture. In many countries this
will just never work.

------
Millennium
I'm forced to admit that this strategy reads like something out of the
Vorkosigan Saga. Then again, there's a reason the Vorkosigan Saga is awesome.
The question is, can it really be made to work outside the sample size of one?

~~~
GFischer
I guess I'll have to read the Vorkosigan Saga sometime, then :) (note: I'm not
the articles' author)

------
niggler
In the securities industry high salaries are common because they usually are
paired with lower percentage payouts. If you want a higher payout, you are
generally expected to take a small or no salary (in the extreme case)

~~~
czbond
I'd take that deal all day. It's like being a founder, with lots of resources,
and much less risk!

------
nawitus
"I explained that my goal is to live a debt-free life, and therefore I wanted
to give value before receiving compensation."

Why? If someone is hiring you to do something, they're taking the risk of you
not delivering enough value, but they're also entitled to whatever rewards
they can get from your work, which can be several times what they're paying
you. Basically the author wants to take all the risk, and if he doesn't have a
substantial bonus, very little of the rewards.

Well, of course anyone can live to make other people profit more, but it's a
bit strange to tell everyone to live like that.

------
davidcollantes
Excerpt from the link:

"We started with base pay. I wrote down the least I would work for and asked
them to write down the most they would offer a perfect person, irrespective of
whether I was that person or not. If when we exchanged papers, their number
wasn’t higher than mine then we could stop there and save time. Their number
was twice the best base pay I had ever received in past jobs, and my request
was for $0."

I am not understanding. The least he would work for is nothing? That can't be
a "start base pay", can it? Could someone clarify? Thanks!

~~~
corin_
> _We did the same thing with profit sharing percentages. However, this time I
> wanted the highest payout standard for our industry_

He was confident that his % share of any profit he generated would be enough
that he didn't require a base pay.

------
yekko
Hahaha, go ahead and try it, and then you wonder why you are getting paid less
than 100k while a incompetent new hire is making 150k fresh off of school.

------
mark_l_watson
Slightly off topic, but not too much: the article offers good advice as far as
compensation goes. I have found another trick works really well in consulting:
avoid locking in customers. Document everything, be willing to help train
replacements, train employees to take over your tasks, etc. This gives
customers a warm-fuzzy feeling about using your services, which seems to
attract more work.

------
jrochkind1
Why does Ghostery[1] keep the blog content from showing up at all?

Hmm, seems to be in particular "Adobe Digital Marketing (Omniture) [2]. If you
have ghostery block this, you can not see the blog text.

[1] <http://www.ghostery.com/>

[2]
[http://www.ghostery.com/apps/adobe_digital_marketing_(omnitu...](http://www.ghostery.com/apps/adobe_digital_marketing_\(omniture\))

~~~
spindritf
> Hmm, seems to be in particular "Adobe Digital Marketing (Omniture) [2]. If
> you have ghostery block this, you can not see the blog text.

I have it blocked and the site works fine.

~~~
jrochkind1
Huh, weird.

------
wtvanhest
Does anyone else have trouble reading this on Android? Every time I touch the
screen to scroll it bumbs the text to an unknown location.

~~~
usea
In Windows I cannot scroll with the keyboard or the mouse wheel. I have to
grab the scroll bar and drag it down. Their layout is FUBAR.

------
cpdean
anyone else feel like qz.com's layout is awful and cramped?

------
alanh
I can’t read the article. This URL ends up showing me “All the paths to
immigration” or something. Does anyone have a copy of the actual content I can
read?

~~~
alanh
Content mirror: <http://peg.gd/38G>

------
auctiontheory
Ironic that someone who has spent his life working as a trader (i.e. producing
_nothing_ ) is so concerned with "debt and honor."

------
ehosca
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoners_dilemma>

------
jokoon
in france, you cant

fuck my life

~~~
pekk
What can't you do? Get paid enough to live very comfortably in one of the
world's great and interesting places?

~~~
jokoon
getting fucking HIRED.

The left has FINALLY tried to pass a bill here to let companies fire people a
little. Many yelled, but in soviet france, it has been a real issue, and the
right/sarkozy did not manage to change something about it. It's sad, because
this is the #1 cause of unemployment here, it's the total opposite of the US.
The minimum wage is also a big issue which adds up to the fact companies
almost cannot fire people.

That means companies are too much careful and cannot hire without being the
employee will not drag everyone down. It boils down to companies hiring only
people they trust, e.g. the friends of employees or their relatives.

It's weird, because for some time now, since 2004 or something, I have been so
much interested and obsessed into the american culture in general, without
really thinking about working there, or going to canada. I love the US and its
issues, since the 2008 crisis I've been fascinated by how an economy works.

"best place in the world" oh boy, well I won't argue with this, but when you
live a developed country, wherever you go, there's nothing to work on, because
of human nature, and you can't say shit about it.

You either wait for some global conflict to make leaders and big owners react
to the problem or force them to, which is really stupid to wish a thing like
war, or watch terrorism happen and say "not surprising". You can also wait for
the older generation to die out to leave room, but in the end it's just
biology.

------
michaelochurch
I think of it differently. There are maximizers, satisficers, and doormats.
Maximizers are the ones who will go all-out to get the best deal, and
sometimes even play the system. They're the ones who know that you can get a
box of cereal for $3.79 instead of $5.29 at another store. They'll also come
up with excuses to line their job interviews on the same week so the offers
roll in at the same time and they can start a "bidding war".

Most people look at maximizers, in the context of negotiation, as being a bit
sociopathic. I disagree; I think it's sometimes quite reasonable to take a
maximizing strategy. It can be exhausting, but I wouldn't call it sociopathic.

Satisficers have a goal and a sense of "good enough" and, as long as they're
north of it, they're happy. Doormats are the ones who take what's given to
them. Being a doormat is the worst. You never win by being a doormat.

The problem with "ask for nothing at all", in the workplace, is that it makes
you a doormat, not a satisficer.

On the other hand, you have to know when to maximize and when to satisfice (is
that a word? It is now.) There's a time for each. Usually, you want to
satisfice on salary and maximize on project quality and work culture. But
there are exceptions to that rule.

~~~
Adrock
The author seems to be recommending that you present as a doormat. You're
exposing your jugular as a sign of trust, similar to the practice of shaking
our right (weapon) hands as a greeting. If the other party is going to try to
take advantage of you in this situation, walk away. You've now seen how
they'll behave when they think you're in a weak position.

~~~
kyllo
This only works if you are actually in a strong negotiating position (you have
or can get equivalent/better offers elsewhere), but you are willing to pretend
to put yourself in a weak one, to test the other party's good faith. Risky. If
you expose your jugular, you might establish trust, but you also might get
your throat slashed.

~~~
Poyeyo
Or, psychologically speaking, it puts you in a strong position.

Think about poker. Do you really know the other player knows all your cards
when he/she bluffs?

