

Asians may face tougher college admission process, study finds - tokenadult
http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2009/10/12/24103/

======
patio11
I find it darkly humorous that people express surprise that institutions which
publish studies in support of racial discrimination, file briefs with the
Supreme Court in favor of racial discrimination, write (and write, and write)
in favor of racial discrimination, and have officers with six figure salaries
put in charge of their departments of racial discrimination, might actually be
engaged in racial discrimination.

~~~
jimmybot
True and nicely put. But, I would say the "surprise" here is not that it's
harder for Asian Americans to get in relative to African Americans. You'd
think that if you are guaranteeing or biasing towards a certain number of
select groups, then the unselected groups would be equally biased against. But
that's not what this study is finding. It's pointing towards the possibility
that Asians are not just disadvantaged relative to their fellow minorities;
they are disadvantaged relative to whites as well.

~~~
patio11
That's an interesting perspective that honestly had not occurred to me. I've
have an unhealthy interest with admissions policies for, crikey, more than a
decade now. The fact that affirmative action would require a disproportionate
discrimination against Asians was obvious from the public data, and much
remarked upon, more than a decade ago. It was also frequently remarked that
this concern was just a stalking horse for white Republicans, for what its
worth.

Speaking of public data: universities have gotten very good at shutting it up
like a drum because when it surfaces (in, for example, the Grantz vs.
Bollinger litigation) it typically reveals that they are bald-faced liars on
this subject.

Relatedly, Princeton's written Affirmative Action Plan is available for
inspection only if you go to campus and read it in their presence, but you
won't be allowed to make copies.

------
sachinag
Schools are not looking to admit the best students - they are looking to admit
the best _class_. That means that they have an idea of what the shape and
character of that class will look like, after taking into account certain
restrictions (legacies, athletes, the band needs a tuba player, whatnot).
There are only so many slots for high-achieving student council presidents.

I look like every other Indian kid to the admissions committees; I needed to
distinguish myself in other ways. If you're poor and Latino and you qualify
academically, guess what, _you've already distinguished yourself_. Anti-Asian
quotas aren't anti-Asian. They're anti-homogenous.

~~~
codexon
I would think a school wants more future billionaires and Nobel prize winners
instead of cherry picking 10 whites 10 asians 10 hispanics 10 blacks majoring
in Art History and Divinity.

This is certainly the image that Harvard et al. are cultivating.

~~~
amichail
Perhaps diversity is part of the education.

~~~
btilly
Absolutely. Elite schools are selling a product. And the product that Harvard,
Yale, etc sell is the image that they create well-rounded future leaders who
are going places.

There is an easy way to see whether you're part of the target market the
school is selling to. Just look at how much financial aid they are willing to
give you. If they are willing to give you generous financial aid, then you're
part of the product being sold, not the target market. According to Harvard's
current financial aid packages, if your parents make under $60,000, you're
part of the product. If they make up to $120,000, you get steep discounts.

If you're honest, there is an even easier way to judge. When I was at
Dartmouth College the figure I heard was that they got more in donations each
year than tuition. If your family is able to make those donations, then you
are _really_ in their target market.

------
bilbo0s
I actually have some experience in university admissions procedures at the
University of Wisconsin. It is interesting that Princeton is being sued
because it was one of the schools following a program that many had considered
to hold some promise. It is based on socio-economic standing. So Mr. Li is
saying Blacks, Hispanics, and Whites were admitted to Princeton, even though
they were less qualified. Now I don't work at Princeton, but I am familiar
with the admissions there. I am almost positive that lower and middle class
students were admitted to the University in lieu of better qualified students
from the elite classes. Probably causing Mr. Li to be rejected. The article
alludes to this fact when it talks about poor whites being given admission
over better qualified wealthy whites. I am also all but certain that poor
asians were given admission over better qualified wealthy asians at Princeton
that same year. Though I don't have the data to back up these assertions, it
seems that the gentleman in the article does.

It is pretty safe to say that the nation's universities will be watching this
law suit with great interest. It will determine whether this socio-economics
based admissions practice is wrong or if it is acceptable. More importantly,
if it is acceptable, under what circumstances is it acceptable?

This one will be VERY interesting. Not just an ordinary affirmative action
suit. This one is quite out of the everyday.

~~~
tokenadult
_It is interesting that Princeton is being sued_

Strictly speaking, Princeton is not being sued by anyone. There is no lawsuit
here. There was a complaint by a rejected applicant to the federal Department
of Education Office of Civil Rights

[http://www.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/complaintprocess.ht...](http://www.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/complaintprocess.html)

and while the complainant first matriculated at Yale and then transferred to
Harvard the inquiry was expanded.

<http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2008/09/08/21307/>

There still has not been any announcement of findings from the inquiry.

The controlling law is a federal statute prohibiting discrimination by race in
any higher education institution receiving federal funds.

<http://www.ed.gov/policy/rights/guid/ocr/raceoverview.html>

(All elite institutions of higher education receive federal funds.)

Amazingly, this law has been on the books since the 1960s, but apparently most
students have not been aware of their opportunity to make complaints to the
federal Department of Education Office of Civil Rights in regard to the
practices of privately operated colleges and universities. Previous Supreme
Court cases on affirmative action have been based on a different body of law,
the equal protection clause of the fourteenth amendment of the Constitution as
applied to state universities.

~~~
bilbo0s
So are they going to opine on whether there was discrimination by race, or
perhaps not opine at all? Or is there any chance that they would look at data,
like that of Thomas Espenshade, that points to widespread socio-economic
discrimination? Perhaps give some guidance as to whether that is acceptable or
not?

~~~
tokenadult
The Department of Education may not issue an informative finding at all.

------
johnnybgoode
I don't really want to fight the last war. The real evil to be fought here is
credentialism. Apparently even PG might agree:
<http://www.paulgraham.com/credentials.html>

If you take care of that, both from a social angle and for employment, it
won't feel like your life has taken a hit if you don't get into one of these
schools. In fact you might not even want to go anymore.

~~~
tokenadult
_The real evil to be fought here is credentialism._

That's a very good point, and thanks for the link to pg's essay on that issue.

------
TheElder
As a white, it makes me somewhat sick to my stomach to think that I might have
benefited from affirmative action. If Asians are better than me, score better
than me, I shouldn't displace any of them in the university.

I almost always assume that blacks who are in any kind of engineering, math,
physics, or hard science schools are placed there because of their race. I
don't want to be thought of in that manner.

Now, was it wrong that the first thing I thought of when I saw a black in the
engineering department was affirmative action? Maybe so, but what is one to
think when affirmative action programs are in place?

~~~
tokenadult
_what is one to think when affirmative action programs are in place?_

I wish I could be 100 percent sure that today's affirmative action programs
operate like the first one I heard of (in 1968), when the idea of the program
is that it connected students who didn't have college-educated parents to
colleges that easily gained applications from children of alumni, but didn't
get many applications from first-generation college students. Then what I
would think of anyone admitted under an affirmative action program is, "It's
only fair that he is here too, even though he didn't have the advantage I had
of being a third-generation college student." But it's not clear now, college-
by-college, just what happens in detail when the admission committee meets to
decide whom to admit.

The great majority of United States colleges admit nearly all of their
applicants. Hundreds of colleges have explicit open-enrollment policies. So
this whole issue only pertains to a small subset of the most desired colleges,
colleges that reject the majority of their applicants.

~~~
amichail
FYI, the whole idea of affirmative action used to bother me enormously.

But not so much now that I realize that working for others is not a desirable
goal.

------
albertsun
At least part of the problem is that it isn't well defined what colleges look
for in applicants. For applying to something like YC, the goal is pretty
clear. Applications are selected based on their likelihood of making lots of
money in the future.

Colleges select (I think) looking for people who will be "successful". Being
"successful" in life is fortunately very hard to define.

------
johnnybgoode
I remember reading an article about this a while back. A college admissions
officer was interviewed, and she admitted to thinking something like, "Oh
great, another one of these kids" whenever she saw another Asian applicant who
plays a musical instrument, (insert other stereotypical activities), etc.

Your first reaction might be to accuse her of racism, but you can see why she
would have the reaction she does. In certain areas, especially with large,
high-achieving Asian communities, a lot of Asian children are encouraged by
their parents to do essentially the same things to increase their chances of
being admitted to the "top" schools. Is it any surprise that college
admissions officers are getting bored of seeing very similar applications?

Not that this necessarily justifies the decisions, or that this is the only
reason for this phenomenon; obviously, it is not.

------
sayrer
The study could show that Asian applicants are less likely to apply to lower
ranking private colleges. Or, the "soft factors" they talk about could be
something obvious, like admitting student athletes with lower SAT scores.
Asian students might be less likely to focus on sports in high school.

~~~
tokenadult
A different study reported in various news sources this year

<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/04/20/mismatch>

suggests other possibilities.

------
Alex3917
College admissions ain't YC. If schools actually admitted students based on
merit, I'd be against this. But since they admit mostly based on grades and
SAT scores, I find it difficult to complain.

(And while they do theoretically factor in other stuff, for the most part that
just means that in the event of a tie they choose the person who made a
documented appearance at more after school 'clubs'.)

