
Dungeons and Developers - flipstewart
http://www.dungeonsanddevelopers.com
======
icambron
It's very cool, but some complaints:

\- I shouldn't have to know advanced database management to do AJAX or user
authentication. Seems like a dependency bug.

\- The tree emphasizes jQuery effects to an odd degree (three levels) and it
doesn't depend on JS mastery. Seems obscure and out of place.

\- There's too much specificity in a lot of the descriptions and links. I'd
focus less on tools and more on skills. For example, instead of "You can use
frameworks like Ember.js,...", say "you can build a complete, highly
interactive SPA". Instead of "You can use mod_rewrite", say "You are
comfortable deploying, configuring, and maintaining high-traffic sites in a
complex environment." The User Testing and Prototypes skills are much better
in this regard.

\- I'm not sure I love the Web Development Mastery skill, because I'm not sure
what it captures besides "I checked off all the other boxes".

Edit: removed use of "just" that makes it sound more critical than I meant it.

~~~
flipstewart
> "The tree emphasizes jQuery effects to an odd degree (three levels) and it
> doesn't depend on JS mastery."

Do you find that use of jQuery requires a mastery of JavaScript? There was a
time when I could use jQuery(especially jQuery plugins) but didn't have a clue
about how to do very basic things with JavaScript.

~~~
Torn
There should be a Javascript tree to this too.

Unless you mean web designers, not web developers?

~~~
stephengillie
Where's the Canvas\HTML5 game made achievement?

For that matter, where's the rest of the server administration tree? It could
branch, with helpdesk administration into enterprise desktop support, with
network administration into BGP routing, and with corporate server
administration into enterprise server administration.

------
karpathy
Content aside, I love the idea of visualizing various skills and their
relationships in this World of Warcraft - like style! Nicely done.

Khan Academy could be taking notes and inspiration to replace their current
Knowledge Map:

[https://www.khanacademy.org/exercisedashboard](https://www.khanacademy.org/exercisedashboard)

Perhaps this would be a little over the top with gamification, but it could be
cute to have a character sheet for every student with their level, experience
points, skills and talent specs listed out in tabs. It's fun to look at Online
Education as being essentially an MMORPG.

~~~
xerophtye
>t's fun to look at Online Education as being essentially an MMORPG.

Hell yeah!

>have a character sheet for every student with their level, experience points,
skills and talent specs listed out in tabs

Isn't that one of the goals of Khan Academy? Because I remember them saying
that they were against grades and that every student deserved a specialized
reprot of their skills abilities projects etc

~~~
X4
MOOC → MMORPG, not a big difference, but a huge impact. Education should be
more fun, less hostile/prison.

------
Jtsummers
Not a skill tree, but this reminds me of the challenge map from
[http://hacker.org](http://hacker.org).

EDIT: To add, the intent of the challenge map is that many of the challenges
build directly or indirectly on past challenges. Basic crypto challenges (by
basic, I mean simple substitution ciphers) to simple XOR ciphers with
increasing levels of difficulty (intended, sometimes there are shortcuts the
designer didn't perceive). Programming challenges using their own esoteric
languages or solving problems with potential exponential algorithms (until you
figure out the shortcuts) and the like.

~~~
ryalfalpha
Definitely recommend this site, it was a big influence in my early programming
days, I found it way more interesting than Project Euler.

~~~
Jtsummers
Agreed. I didn't get too far in Project Euler myself before finding other
programming problems to solve. Logging in I only solved 4, apparently. Which
doesn't seem right, maybe I accidentally created a second account, I've done
that a few times.

The main issue was, though I have a math degree, there was no way it would
appeal to most of my friends when we'd turn these sorts of things into a
(mostly) friendly competition. Hacker.org hit just the right buttons to keep a
few of them interested long enough to even plough through the problems they
didn't enjoy just to make progress.

------
hackula1
Things seem aimed a bit more at designers than developers. If it was to be
more developer-centric it would definitely need some references to things like
GoF patterns, dependency injection, code reuse, testing/testability, loose
coupling, etc. Someone could have a perfect score on this and potentially be
terrible, even at web development specifically. If someone had a perfect score
on the programmers competency matrix, however, they would be a sure thing.

[http://sijinjoseph.com/programmer-competency-
matrix/](http://sijinjoseph.com/programmer-competency-matrix/)

The best sort of skill tree is one where it is hard enough that you cannot
make it down every path in the time that it takes to play the game (in this
case a career). Someone needs to create a new competency matrix with a broader
scope.

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Sir_Cmpwn
Dungeons and _web_ developers.

~~~
Rhapso
Sometimes I wonder if I still count as a developer because I don't do web
tech.

~~~
jff
Yes. Oh god yes. Don't let the HN world get you down, there's more out there
than HTML and Javascript.

~~~
contingencies
return(false);

------
lifeformed
What if a company implemented this in their workplace?

They would have different classes for general positions in the company, and
you could get a skill by passing a rigorous test. Each skill point would get
you a raise. You get promotions or change roles based on your class
specialization and level.

I know, I know, it'd be a disaster. But maybe there could be lower stakes at
hand to encourage employees to learn new skills, like cashing in XP for little
perks.

~~~
andrewb
I don't agree that'd be a disaster, I personally like the idea or at least
something similar.

Essentially it's about basing promotions & pay based off meritocracy. There
could be concerns about the Peter Principle [0] but at a high level, it
appeals to me to work in an environment where people can "prove" they have the
skills, instead of talking the talk or simply being the oldest employee.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle)

~~~
tesseractive
The fact that you can point to some credential that asserts that you learned
something doesn't speak to your ability to actually use it effectively[1],
much less achieve business objectives by using it.

Also, the people who you believe have been promoted by virtue of being the
"oldest employee" may actually possess skills that you are unaware of --
perhaps even skills you are unaware are useful and important. Speaking as
someone who has been around the block but prefers to work as an individual
contributor rather than a manager, I have observed any number of important
skills that are prevalent among effective managers that most technical folks
start out unaware of. Risk assessment skills -- which are often based in
having enough experience with both successful and failed projects -- are a
good example. Another is the willingness to take responsibility for what often
seem like nonsensical decisions that have to be made due to business or
practical constraints. The latter is something that virtually no one _likes_
to do, but often needs to be done in real life.[2] I could go on indefinitely,
but I hope a couple of examples will suffice for now.

[1]
[http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lh0blbt3bs1qz8yeno1_400.jp...](http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lh0blbt3bs1qz8yeno1_400.jpg)

[2] I was too slow to pick up on this lesson in real life until I saw the way
Tom Hanks told Gary Sinise he was being dropped from the mission in the movie
_Apollo 13_. In the time since, this has been a useful observation about how
managers can be more effective when they don't try to do whatever will make
you like them the most (which is typically a negative trait in a manager).

------
patio11
jQuery Effects is a pre-req for the ultimate (Web Development Mastery) but
jQuery Effects does not arrow into the ultimate. Instead, Web Design Mastery,
which is a pre-req for jQuery Effects, does. This appears to be a bug. You
could resolve it by moving WDM up a level and moving jQuery Effects into its
current position.

------
rurounijones
Very cute and nice but the categories are too broad in name and narrow in
focus "Server administration" = Apache setup etc.

------
kybernetyk
Nice idea - though it's a pity that it's so web dev centered.

------
vertis
Very interesting concept, but it is very limited currently. I'd like to see
some other 'classes'.

A class for Ops/DevOps, and for Technical Management for instance

------
vyrotek
If this is the skill tree, is doing a startup a raid?

~~~
saraid216
Nah, the better analogy is forming a guild. The raid is every time there's a
fire you have to put out because a key customer is unhappy or you aren't
making enough money and need to pivot or your landlord kicks you out or you go
for VC funding.

...I can't believe I bothered to write this.

------
nrivadeneira
Myself:
[http://www.dungeonsanddevelopers.com/#_a2b2cde3hijklm2nopqxy...](http://www.dungeonsanddevelopers.com/#_a2b2cde3hijklm2nopqxy2_15_Nick)

This is actually an interesting way to display credentials. You could
potentially put this up as supplementary on your LinkedIn profile or something
along those lines.

~~~
dak1
I find it intriguing how close yours was to what I came up with quick for
myself
([http://www.dungeonsanddevelopers.com/#_a2b2c2de3hi2jklmnopqx...](http://www.dungeonsanddevelopers.com/#_a2b2c2de3hi2jklmnopqxy_17_Dak)).

I wonder what percentage of web developers on HN fall into the same broad
category.

------
natural219
Aww. I guess not knowing stored procedures prevents me from obtaining Web
Development mastery. Fair enough, I suppose.

~~~
jessedhillon
Yeah, there should be a step before that involves joins, using composite
primary keys and foreign key constraints, views ... just some things that I
would say are a step above "I wrote a model file and my ORM issued the
appropriate DDLs"

------
Wintamute
I love this! I think there's some real mileage in something like this realised
a little better. For example:

\- Let users upload their own portraits

\- Sort out the skill dependencies to be more logical. Why do the 3 levels of
jQuery effects not depend on JS mastery for example?

\- Less emphasis on specific tools and more on types of skill, as pointed out
by some other commenters

\- Let us pick classes, perhaps with two components to the class, e.g.
"Frontend ranger", "Devops Paladin", "Database barbarian", "Data Scientist
High Elf" etc.

\- Sort out the ugly looking pushState url to something cleaner that people
would be proud to link to

------
cfontes
Really nice !

But Server Side programming should have more levels...

~~~
bhauer
Agreed, on both points. Fun and awesome design. Since I have so few skills on
the left side of this talent sheet, I really appreciate how polished it looks.

I was a little sad that our framework benchmarks [1] and/or a "server-side
performance" talent category were missing. :)

[1]
[http://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/](http://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/)

------
lmartel
This is fun! Great work.

One small suggestion: consider using replaceState instead of pushState,
pressing the back button just removes one skill point when it should probably
leave the site (or at least remove all skill points).

------
ewzimm
This is fun as a "what don't I know" test. I think we all know of some
professional software developers who wouldn't pass the advanced database
talent. I might be one!

------
yohann305
Any MMORPG player would tell you that a build tree decreases flexibilty and
annihilates creativity as only 2 or 3 major "build trees" end up being viable.

------
kedar5
Stylish, Sizzlin, Crafty, Nimble, Beefcake, XXL Knapsack, Mindweaver,
Mindreader, Artistic, Conjurer, Stewardship, Spectral Guide.... From Dungeons
and Developers

------
jeybalachandran
Spaces in your names should be encoded/decoded as %20.

------
jaimebuelta
This is pretty cool but shows up how unrealistic talent trees are in real
life. Will be a pretty good idea for a customised CV in game industry,
though... :-P

------
scrabble
I really enjoy this, but I think it might not have enough levels. I'm level 28
according to the tree, but I certainly don't feel like a 28.

------
dlitvakb
Should be able to "Save and Share" my profile

Really nice work

~~~
NhanH
All the changed are in the URL, you can just copy and share it.

~~~
gberger
But what if I gain a new skill? The URL won't update if I have posted it
somewhere.

~~~
dlitvakb
Exactly

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enraged_camel
It would be pretty awesome if they created a fully editable/customizable
version of this talent tree. I would totally pay for it.

------
d0m
Too much awesomeness in one page. Now, needs to make a real game out of it.
The web developer shaman and their enemy, the mighty IE6.

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maxburkhardt
You should add security in there somewhere!

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frozenport
Back button is broken in Firefox 23.0

~~~
gee_totes
Yeah, same with chrome. looks like every skill you clicked on created an entry
in the browser's history. Not sure why they did the UX like that; it's very
annoying.

------
X4
This is awesome, but makes no sense without:

    
    
         * Business Skills
         * Social Skills
         * Mastery of a Start-up
         * Entrepreneur Skills
         * Organizational Skills ($ and PM)
         * Marketing Skills (most importantly)
    

Unfortunately I know that I mastered all of these topics on site already more
or less, but not the mentioned ones.

------
johngalt
I enjoy the subtleties. Leveling deployment adds dexterity and fortitude :)

