
Researchers identify sleep as a reason why personality traits predict longevity - laurex
https://digest.bps.org.uk/2019/05/01/researchers-identity-sleep-as-a-key-reason-why-personality-traits-predict-longevity
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oarabbus_
I understand this is correlation not causation, but we have tons and tons of
evidence for the negative effects of sleep deprivation.

Color me highly skeptical that there are negative effects associated with
sleeping 8.5+ hours, up to say, 11 hours. Beyond 11 hours of sleep, I can see
an argument being made for physical morbidity from lack of movement etc. But
8-9 hours of sleep nightly - my guess would be that people who get only 7
hours of sleep tend to be more successful, have jobs and families, and access
to health care. Whereas those sleeping 10 hours a night are less likely to
have the income to get health care when necessary.

In other words, I'd be interested to see studies which test the hypothesis
that sleep deprivation has a causal effect on morbidity, while excessive sleep
only has a correlation.

~~~
dragontamer
Let me reveal some of my personal health for this discussion.

I was diagnosed with minor sleep apnea, and my doctor prescribed an anti-
snoring mouthguard (a $1000 device that is basically a mouthguard with a screw
in it... ugghhh). Costs aside, the device works, and I've been getting LESS
sleep recently.

Why? Because 7ish hours of sleep is all I need now... because I'm not getting
minor "self-wakeup events" during night. Before this mouthguard, I needed 9ish
hours of sleep to feel rested.

The mouthguard definitely works (for my case anyway. I did some research and
its apparently because I've got a large tongue or something, which means my
snoring / sleep apnea could be cured by a mouth-guard forcing my jaw into a
different position). Apparently, other cases of sleep apnea can only be solved
with a CPAP, while still other cases of sleep apnea can be solved with a
simple "sleeping backpack" (to prevent sleeping on your back).

\---------

Undiagnosed Sleep Apnea is associated with longer sleep, less-restful sleep,
and a variety of ailments like obesity and high-blood pressure. I don't think
cause-and-effect has been figured out yet (maybe obesity causes sleep apnea,
or maybe vice versa).

It is quite possible that excessive sleep is correlated with a variety of
sleep-issues, like Sleep Apnea. People who fix their sleeping issues may live
longer, higher quality lives.

~~~
ccvannorman
I suspect I may have a condition similar to yours. I googled anti-snoring
mouth guard and came back with $50-100 solutions, but no "bolt" inside that I
could see. What differs between these and yours? Can you give more details eg
a brand, a picture, or better description?

Thanks!

~~~
Draiken
I have to warn you that I spent a lot of money on one of those and it simply
did not work.

CPAP was my salvation.

Glad to see it works for some people, but for me I felt scammed by the doctor
that after a while simply said "you should find a way to control your jaw
while asleep, it's a mental thing".

~~~
pstuart
The doctors at the sleep center were happy to prescribe the CPAP machine
(which their "partner" business supplied), as well as prescribing sleep meds
and scheduling regular checkups on me.

Interestingly enough, at the end of my sleep study the technician commented to
me that I appeared to have a deviated septum and perhaps I should have that
looked at. The doctor who reviewed my study didn't mention that and never
suggested I see an ENT for a second opinion.

Instead, I was pitched an implanted device that would ostensibly "cure" the
apnea (no thank you!).

I did see an ENT, did get surgery and now sleep soundly. I've never gone back
to that sleep center where they were only interested in extracting as much
money from me as possible.

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acconrad
> _the research showed that too little or too much sleep was associated with
> increased risk of dying – approximately 65 minutes more than, or under, the
> average nightly sleep duration (7 hours in this sample) was associated with
> a 10 per cent increased risk of dying over the course of the study_

This seems inaccurate on the high end. Under 6 hours has repeatedly shown to
be bad. But over 8 hrs and 5 min? If the average REM sleep cycle is 1.5 hrs,
then your only "perfect" window is 7.5 hrs of sleep - 9 would be detrimental?

Other data suggests otherwise:

[https://www.nichd.nih.gov/health/topics/sleep/conditioninfo/...](https://www.nichd.nih.gov/health/topics/sleep/conditioninfo/how-
much)

~~~
klipt
I usually feel like I need 9 hours sleep after a good workout. Am I doomed?

~~~
dcolkitt
Take note that what sleep researchers count as hours of sleep is not the same
as what we colloquially count as sleep.

Let's say you get in bed, lights off, at 11 PM and wake up at 7 AM. Most
people would call that an eight hour night of sleep. But in reality it takes
the average person 20-30 minutes before actually falling into sleep. The
average person also wakes up four or more times a night, sometimes for ten
minutes or longer. Often we don't even remember all the times we get up. A lot
of people also awaken before their scheduled wakeup times, and spend 20+
minutes in pre-dawn twilight.

Add it altogether and an "eight hour night" may actually only constitute 6.5
hours of actual physiological sleep. The only way to know for sure how much
sleep you get is to use a device specifically designed for the purpose.

~~~
redka
Do you have any specific devices in mind?

~~~
loudmax
I have a Xiaomi fitness band 2. As far as I can tell, the sleep metrics it
reports are pretty good. I wouldn't attempt to compare its accuracy to an
Apple watch, but the Xiaomi's battery charge lasts about a week and it cost
$30.

~~~
neves
I'm really impressed with Mi Band 2 sleep tracking. It correctly matches the
time I go to bed, and get up. Also gets each time I wake up during the night,
or when I'm reading before sleep. I'm not sure about the "deep sleep"
recording, and maybe I'm being suggested, but in nights with low deep sleep I
fell terrible. Just monitoring my sleep I improved it. Sorry that it does not
have a smart alarm neither an alarm to go to bed.

------
theptip
I've always been interested in the direction of causation behind the claim
"too little sleep is correlated with an increased rate of death". People talk
about it like it's proven that lack of sleep causes death, but is it just that
many health issues cause you to sleep more/less than average?

Applying that line of thought to the article, if you have a health issue that
is causing you to lose sleep (e.g. due to pain or hormonal issues), is it
unreasonable to think that might increase your neuroticism or decrease your
extraversion?

I've no idea if anyone has ever managed to determine the direction of
causation here, seems like these longitudinal studies don't have the ability
to disambiguate.

~~~
dntrkv
If you're really interested, read the book Why We Sleep by Matthew Walker. The
book references a ton of studies that show, definitively, getting less than 7
hours of sleep is hugely detrimental to your health.

The book actually talks about how psychiatric disorders cause insomnia which
creates a feedback loop of getting less sleep, which amplifies the detrimental
effects of the disorder, which in turn worsens the insomnia.

~~~
TaupeRanger
It does not show that at all, especially not "definitively". Matt Walker's
career is based on fearmongering about sleep. The actual studies are quite
mixed. Here's a recent one that showed little to no effect of short or long
sleep lengths on cancer risk:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30463535](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30463535).

Feel free to read the book, but don't do so without strong skepticism. In
particular, the book never actually attempts to answer the question in its
title, other than to present some vague, unfalsifiable theories. It presents
tons of information, but no answer to the question.

~~~
dntrkv
There were parts of the book that I was definitely skeptical of, and after
doing some research, found were not supported by any studies that I could
find. So I will agree that you should remain skeptical about some claims...
Really, you should be skeptical of anything you hear.

But the fact that under sleeping has serious detrimental effects on your
health is supported by many studies.

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2845795/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2845795/)
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8621064](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8621064)
[https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar...](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/486518)
[https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar...](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/410883)
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19109114](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19109114)
[https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar...](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/414701)
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6878979](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6878979)
[https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/01.HYP.00002173...](https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/01.HYP.0000217362.34748.e0)

There are so many studies out there about this, I don't see how you can deny
this fact.

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mevile
I can't imagine that all that stress to min/max health outcomes through strict
behavior changes is good for you or worth it in the long run.

I subscribe to some nutrition and fitness subreddits and I see people
obsessing about minute details of what they eat, how much they sleep,
obsessing to take control over every facet of their lives because of some
study they read on the internet.

I contend that worrying about these things is counter productive. Of course
you should get enough sleep, you should exercise regularly and generally eat
healthy. Check with your doctor, but this will probably be enough to avoid
life style inflicted harm long term.

Strict controls and obsessive attention to your everyday life to maybe
postpone death by some unknown amount of time, probably not worth it. Death
sucks, but it's inevitable and no amount of finessing health choices will
change that.

~~~
carrier_lost
I agree. Sacrificing your mental health for your physical health is
counterproductive to the goal of whole well-being. Obsession is harmful.
Moderation is key.

------
rofo1
Based on my experience, I can say that after very difficult strength workout
like rings, 1 arm pullups, iron cross, etc., there is a huge difference in
recovery on the days that I sleep 11 hours vs. the days that I sleep 8 hours
only.

On the other hand, sleeping less than 8 hours a day is devastating (check the
book 'Why We Sleep' for details)

Moreover, I've read that this was known among 19th century strongmen (Eugene
Sandow slept 11+ hours a day).

So whatever happens during sleep, we need more of it (if we stress our body
more).

I highly doubt that in itself (sleeping more) is detrimental in any way.

~~~
wppick
I have also seen similar recovery benefits from longer (11+) hours sleeps.
During a period of a few months I worked out heavily every day, and noticed
better recovery and faster strength gains from the longer sleeps. One downside
with the longer sleeps was that I would not get tired at the same time each
night, so my sleep window moved later and later until I needed to skip a
night's sleep to reset, so I was probably sleeping more than my normal rhythms
required

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djmips
Maybe "the indirect link between higher trait agreeableness and risk of dying"
is due to others in their environment keeping them up and they going along
with it even when they are tired.

~~~
theatraine
I saw this with a partner. She was extremely agreeable and would compromise
her own sleep to make time for others. I suppose that doing this over time
adds up and extracts a toll.

------
majkinetor
I always sleep like a baby on weed, that must mean I will live forever
(yeeey).

On the other hand, tomorrow I often feel tired throughout a day, even more
then as if I slept 4-5 hours without a weed, which might mean I should start
looking for a parcel (meh).

This study just gave me cognitive dissonance.

~~~
rriepe
Weed withdrawal causes insomnia, especially in heavy/daily users. If you want
to see how much sleep you actually get without being on weed, you should take
an 8-week break first.

~~~
opportune
I recently took an 8 week break and I noticed sleep returning to "normal"
after about 1-2 weeks. I had a couple nightmares while in REM rebound though
which really sucked and never happens to me otherwise

~~~
majkinetor
My experience too. Around second week insomnia is away but dreams return...
often not in a good way.

------
elamje
I find that people tend to believe there is a specific amount of time, or even
range of time that is ideal. The body is massively complex and ideal sleep
time is completely different on a person to person basis. You must understand
that there is no ideal sleep for you that a study will be able to identify,
you need to test your own hypotheses and decide for yourself.

------
tylerjwilk00
For anyone with sever deviated septum who has trouble sleeping because they
can't breath through their nose which often causes excessive dry mouth, I
highly recommend trying [1] _Nose Vents_.

Since using them I get much better sleep, don't wake up with dry mouth and a
need to drink water all night. It only takes a few nights to get used to them.
I use the largest silicone pair, despite the fact that it seems like its a tad
to large, because it widens the nostril to ease breathing. Your mileage may
vary.

[1]
[https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0743KZK88/](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0743KZK88/)

~~~
sameAsYou
Thanks for the suggestion. I'd like to add that I use Breathe Right strips and
they seem to help a lot.

------
Fogest
It all seems to come down to sleep when looking at lifespan. Despite knowing
about all the risks from not sleeping enough I still struggle to want to sleep
a full 7 hours.

And as the article mentions I do see those links in my personality associated
with people getting a lack of sleep.

~~~
blunte
I'm a natural night owl, and I love being awake while most people around me
are asleep. However, with "normal" life/jobs, that is a recipe for chronic
under-sleep.

However, once I started working for myself, following my own schedule, I found
it quite easy to get 7-8 hours of sleep per "night". I go to sleep when I
want, and I usually wake up when my body wakes me up. I almost never feel
tired anymore.

So in my opinion, the problem is the forced schedule most people have to
suffer.

~~~
Fogest
I have the same kind of problem, I much prefer the nights, but am constrained
by the "normal" job schedules. Also to compound the problem I do a side
medical job at events which typically happen at late evening/night or on the
other side sometimes start early in the day. It makes it hard to maintain a
regular schedule.

------
throwayEngineer
Article gave a harsh summary, then you go to the study and they give you an
abstract that explains almost nothing more without a pay wall. I would rather
have the data be free, and everything else pay. There's no way to know if this
is a bad study without giving them money.

>Lower conscientiousness predicted increased death risk via the direct,
indirect, and total effect of quadratic sleep duration. Although there were no
other direct personality-mortality effects, higher neuroticism and
agreeableness and lower conscientiousness predicted increased death risk via
the joint indirect effects of quadratic sleep duration and higher daytime
dysfunction.

~~~
sampo
> nothing more without a pay wall

As (almost) always, you can find the full article in Sci-Hub. It's not 2010
anymore.

------
thewhitetulip
Can someone be genetically blessed with not requiring 8hrs sleep?

How much sleep do we need and why?

A friend of mine is a security researcher and he has been awake for one entire
week by napping barely 10min for the full week

~~~
wolf7
You can be genetically blessed. The "gene variant ‘p.Tyr362His’" let's one get
by on less than 5 hrs of sleep. See: Margaret Thatcher. A friend of mine that
got 2 Bachelors and 2 Masters degrees in 4 years might've had that, though he
said he just got used to the lack of sleep.

source: [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-
news/110061...](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-
news/11006181/Thatcher-gene-is-key-to-needing-less-sleep.html)

~~~
013a
Its kind of amazing to me that we haven't heard more, or maybe aren't seeing
more, research into drugs or therapy which could reduce the amount of sleep
people need. We'd be talking about the greatest boon to global productivity in
the history of mankind, likely singularly more impactful than any other
technology we've ever developed. The company which develops it could sell it
for literally any price and they'd have people scrambling for it.

Not suggesting its easy, or possible, but its just surprising to me that I
don't hear anyone talking about it. Modafinil might be the closest I've seen
but its obviously not for long-term use. Google/Alphabet is pouring hundreds
of millions into Calico to fight aging, but fighting Sleep feels like a much
easier target that could have much more impactful consequences (extending life
from 80 to 100 isn't nearly as interesting as giving a ~30 year old even 10%
more time with their younger body and mind).

And once its solved we'll inevitably flip into a dystopian society where the
poor either can't afford the drug and thus become poorer, or are the only ones
taking it because they now have to work 22 hours a day, but Hey, we'll worry
about that when we get there.

~~~
pugz
Why do you say modafinil is not for long-term use? I take it 7 times a week,
have done so for years and my doctor tells me it's likely that I will be
taking it as long as I need it (in my case: a lifetime, as it's treating a
chronic condition).

------
fauigerzigerk
I wonder whether the link between sleeping less and eating more (or for longer
hours) has been studied.

What if you sleep only five hours but restrict eating to the same hours as
someone sleeping seven hours?

If sleeping is about giving the body a break, it seems pretty obvious that not
eating would be a major part of that.

------
coldtea
In other words, the wages of hustle are death.

------
sigstoat
since everyone is so hot on correlation and causation in this thread: i've
seen some nice looking charts of all(?) the ways causation might work between
two variables that are correlated. they have maybe 14-16 nice little directed
graphs to them.

anyone happen to remember/recognize what i'm describing and have a link to it?

~~~
AdamSC1
I don't think this is what you are looking for, but, it put me in mind of the
book Spurious Correlation that shows how easy it is for things to seem
related:

[https://tylervigen.com/spurious-
correlations](https://tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations)

------
viburnum
Ok, so if I’m anxious or depressed but I sleep the optimal number of hours,
I’ll maximize longevity anyway?

~~~
Aromasin
I suppose it depends on the quality of sleep. AFAIK, anxiety and depression
reduce quality sleep time, which reciprocates itself into worsening anxiety
and depression.

Undiagnosed issues that cause the depression and anxiety in the first place
often _also_ cause sleep issues (thinking food intolerances and underlying
inflammation), so it's hard to extract data to separate the two symptoms.

------
blunte
Summary: 7 hours of sleep is ideal; +/\- 1 hour of sleep is related to
increased risk of death.

Everything else in the article seemed to be a lot of assumption and guessing
about why people got more or less sleep.

Perhaps the article poorly represented the content of the study...

~~~
smartbit
According to a military study referenced by William Dement
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hAw1z8GdE8?t=29m](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hAw1z8GdE8?t=29m)
it is 8h:15m +- 50min

~~~
blunte
I like this number better :). 7h is ok for me, but 8 feels so much better.

------
frequentnapper
i'm wondering if midday napping was factored in

~~~
derangedHorse
A fitting username lol

~~~
quickthrower2
I hope your's isn't.

------
julienreszka
Garbage in garbage out. Their data is worthless

