
Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order - danso
https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news/tesla-blames-drivers-who-wreck-its-cars-but-wont-hand-over-crash-data-without-a-court-order-053018.html
======
robrenaud
This is a bunch of PR nonsense.

> When asked why Tesla has an apparent policy requiring drivers who want their
> own data to file for a subpoena, a spokesperson framed it as a privacy
> issue.

> “We handle all customer data in accordance with our Owner’s Manual and
> privacy policy, which clearly outlines the type of data we collect and the
> lengths that we go to protect a customers’ privacy in the process,” Tesla
> said via email, referencing back to a statement on the Tesla website about
> the company’s data collection practices.

You can pay a third party $1000 to access the data, or Telsa will publicly
shame your driving if they think you are in the wrong during a crash, but they
really need to fight you to protect your privacy from yourself?

~~~
arghwhat
Ah, how wonderful that the GDPR is now in place, making this as easy as
issuing a subject access request.

~~~
craftyguy
Only if you are in the EU. Many Tesla drivers aren't.

~~~
nemoniac
The GDPR also holds for European Tesla drivers outside the EU.

~~~
stordoff
I don't believe that's true. For processors outside of the Union, it applies
to "data subjects in the Union" or "monitoring [...] within the Union".

[https://gdpr-info.eu/art-3-gdpr/](https://gdpr-info.eu/art-3-gdpr/)

~~~
dpwm
Does this mean that if a US citizen goes on holiday to a country in the
European Union, that they are a data subject in the European Union?

~~~
s3krit
Yes, as I understand it, that is correct. When you are in a country that is a
member of the EU, your data held by companies is subject to the GDPR.

~~~
lenocinor
Doesn't this mean that even a US company which explicitly verifies it only
works with US citizens must still IP block all of Europe to comply?

EDIT: A nasty surprise that might be, too, if it turns out there was important
data via that service that you wanted to access abroad but couldn't.

~~~
iofiiiiiiiii
Only if they actually have a legal presence in the EU. If they are a US
company that has no legal entity established in the EU, the laws of the EU
have no effect on them.

~~~
lenocinor
Thanks for the info.

------
pwagland
So this is something that has always kind of bugged me about Tesla. If you
have an accident, they are more than happy to drop the crash data "proving"
that you were at fault, look at the recent stories about running into a road
barrier and the back of a firetruck for recent examples of this. And, of
course, they don't ask you first if they can release it.

However, if you want the data, you can't have it… you have to go to court to
get it.

~~~
jopsen
GDPR doesn't sound so bad now, does it? :)

~~~
gonational
No.

You know what sounds nice?

Having the choice to not buy a Tesla.

I don’t need Government™ to tell me what kind of contracts I can agree to.

~~~
smnrchrds
> Having the choice to not buy a Tesla.

If Tesla's business model proves successful, all other car makers will copy
it, and then it doesn't matter which brand you buy.

Look at the TV market. You technically have the choice not to buy a "Smart
TV," which sells your info to god-knows how many third-parties and spies on
you 24/7\. But good luck finding one. Sony, Samsung, LG? They all have the
same spyware features. Your only option is to buy brandless Chinese TVs with
terrible picture and worse sound quality.

How long until all manufacturers start acting like Tesla? What choice will we
have then? Start walking everywhere like our ancient ancestors?

~~~
cataphract
Can't you just not connect them to the Internet?

~~~
taejo
You can try. I recently learned that Ethernet-over-HDMI is a thing: now that
you know that, you can potentially disable it on the other end of the
connection, but lots of people are connecting their TVs to the internet
without even knowing.

~~~
lozaning
The protocol supports it yes, but I think you'd have a hard time finding a
single person who has ever inadvertently connected their TV to the internet
through HDMI. Hell I think you'd have a hard time finding a TV that even
supports this functionality, and if you do my bet is it's a specialty thing
made for the hospitality/service industry.

------
adrianN
Can we make a law that all data collected by devices that I bought belongs to
me? Yes, that includes everything the websites I visit send back to the
mothership.

~~~
jimmaswell
There's no real justification for anyone having that right. The device
manufacturer/website owner/etc does the work of creating the data, yet you
think it's yours?

~~~
kofejnik
No, it's my device that creates the data, so it is mine. Otherwise, does the
typewriter manufacturer own the stories you type?

~~~
cblades
I don't think that analogy holds up. Maybe: does the typewriter manufacturer
own meta data such as letter frequency, average work length, etc that their
product calculates based on your usage?

~~~
kofejnik
No, of course not.

Once money exchanged hands, it's not their product, it's mine, as is _all_ of
its output, including logs, etc.

Otherwise, I'd call it 'spyware'.

~~~
jimmaswell
This already isn't the case in many instances where you don't actually "own"
the thing, you just have a license to use it.

------
MisterTea
Can we please go back to selling physical things instead of EULAs? If I bought
the car it's mine along with all the data _I_ generate while inside of _MY_
vehicle. This is why I will not buy newer computer filled vehicles; they don't
belong to you anymore.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Welcome to the next stage of the economy - now that we've created products for
almost all daily needs, it's time to turn them into services. _sigh_.

I'm with you and 'adrianN on this. I hate this direction and wish we could
turn it back somewhat, or at least cover for the negative aspects of
servicization of products. Regulation might be a necessary tool for that.

~~~
MisterTea
It's starting to become maddening when you look around you and realize that in
a few short years everything is shifting to SaaS. The part that really bothers
me is it feels degrading in the sense that you are not allowed to control your
own property anymore. This is when technology becomes oppressive.

~~~
gm-conspiracy
The hegemony is coming. There will be a not insignificant portion that is
unwilling to embrace this.

------
gcheong
Just a point of clarification as I was confused reading the description. The
$1000 to access data isn't on an event by event basis. It's for the cables to
connect to the EDR so presumably once you have them you can access all the
data in the EDR at any time. [http://www.crashdatagroup.com/tesla-edr-
kit/](http://www.crashdatagroup.com/tesla-edr-kit/)

~~~
slededit
They can get the data remotely from a smashed car on the side of the road to
slander the driver. But somehow if you want it, a $1000 cable is totally
necessary.

~~~
gm-conspiracy
Is it really that difficult to use a hacked femtocell and MitM the Tesla's
telemetrics?

And remember this story:

[https://arstechnica.com/cars/2016/03/man-hacks-tesla-
firmwar...](https://arstechnica.com/cars/2016/03/man-hacks-tesla-firmware-
finds-new-model-has-car-remotely-downgraded/)

~~~
Matheus28
Communication with the mothership is done through a VPN. The only way to
listen in is to have root access to the cid (that computer in the middle with
the large screen).

------
danso
I imagine this policy would have to be different for those in the UK, right? I
thought I had read that the Data Protection Act (of 1998) forced companies to
send data in situations they would not for other countries:

[https://www.gov.uk/respond-data-protection-
request](https://www.gov.uk/respond-data-protection-request)

> _Under data protection law, anyone can ask if your organisation holds
> personal information about them - you must respond to their request as soon
> as possible, and within one month at most._

~~~
CiaranMcNulty
Crash data is not necessarily Personally Identifiable Information

~~~
Someone1234
You added the word "Identifiable." The DPA isn't limited to just that.

------
emodendroket
It seems like Tesla's on the fast-track to an Uber-tier reputation.

~~~
aerovistae
Yeah, if any imperfect company is instantly equated with a pure evil company,
then sure. Seems fair.

But, then again, I can see how you'd think Tesla was pure evil too if you buy
into all the endless nonsense published about them without doing any research.

~~~
emodendroket
What is it you think is "nonsense" or inaccurate?

~~~
aerovistae
Not going to get sucked into this. If you have to ask, it implies you already
believe that all of the dozens of articles published daily have total merit,
in which case nothing I'm going to say will convince you because your position
is pretty well set in concrete.

~~~
emodendroket
If I'm not already convinced Tesla is being unfairly attacked, I'm not
amenable to changing my position? I find that line hard to understand.

~~~
aerovistae
True, perhaps you are amenable to it. But 95% of people encountered online
already have their minds made up one way or the other pretty firmly, and I
don't care to take the chance you're a unicorn.

Which begs the question, why do I comment in these discussions at all? I do
not know.

~~~
emodendroket
You seem to be making quite a habit of it.

~~~
aerovistae
Don’t think I don’t know it. Sigh.

------
vinceguidry
Oh boy, I was so excited to get a Tesla when the time finally came, but if
they're still pulling this crap when that happens, guess I'm getting a Benz
instead.

~~~
ovao
Will Mercedes Benz release your collected crash data to you?

~~~
vinceguidry
Doesn't matter. They have an established history and have been making cars for
almost a hundred years. I drive a Mazda now. If it's looking like drive-by-
wire technology is too dangerous, I'll just keep driving that and hope my
cruise control doesn't decide to cause an accident.

~~~
ovao
I don't quite follow the logic that it doesn't matter. If the reason for
someone _not_ to buy a Tesla is because they do (A), why is the alternative to
buy from another manufacturer that also does (A)?

~~~
vinceguidry
I don't need a reason to not buy Tesla, I need a reason _to_ buy Tesla. Belief
in Musk's vision and the awesomeness of the car was that reason. Without both
of those things being true, there's no reason to buy something that new and
untested. It's like asking me to buy a Kickstarter car.

~~~
ovao
Maybe there's an element to this that I'm simply missing, but I don't believe
Musk's vision has changed, and Tesla's internal policies regarding the release
of crash data to consumers doesn't say anything about the 'awesomeness' of the
car itself. Your ownership experience of the car will be affected by Tesla's
policies, for sure, but regardless of what Tesla does or does not do with
crash data, the car itself doesn't change. That might be nuanced a bit by what
Tesla can do so easily with OTA updates, but just speaking generally.

I have no real dog in this fight though. Any reasons you have to choose one
car over the other are your own, and it's not my intent to criticize one
choice or the other. The reasoning here just seems slightly difficult to
follow.

~~~
lolc
> Maybe there's an element to this that I'm simply missing,

From a consumer standpoint you're buying a black box controlled by a company
that frequently behaves in a overtly hostile manner towards the "owners".

Imagine Apple not letting you use the accelerometer or GPS sensors in your
phone. Instead they'd just collect telemetry from it. Now imagine you claim a
"spontaneous shattering of the screen". To counter this, Apple publishes
select pieces to show that the phone experienced acceleration consistent with
a crash after a drop. On Twitter.

Now would you expect Apple to do that? I'm not finished. Would Apple go on the
record to say that you personally have not been taking proper care of your
phone? That's what Tesla is doing.

> Tesla's internal policies regarding the release of crash data to consumers
> doesn't say anything about the 'awesomeness' of the car itself.

Much like food by a cook that doesn't wash hands can still be delicious.

~~~
ovao
Those aren’t the issues the commenter to which I responded claims to be
concerned with. You’re making an argument based on separate concerns, which is
valid, but those aren’t the things that we were discussing.

~~~
lolc
Sorry if I got lost in the woods.

------
dsfyu404ed
>But Tesla also took time to publish a blog post characterizing Cordaro as
someone who did not take care of his Model S.

>"The suspension ball joint experienced very abnormal rust,” Tesla said of his
car, adding that Cordaro “lives down such a long dirt road that it required
two tow trucks to retrieve the car.” The car, Tesla also added, was “caked in
dirt."

I'll be one of the first people to tell you that Pennsylvanians are a bunch of
loud mouth complainers who don't really have it as bad as they say when it
comes to vehicle rust.

However, the idea that a low volume, relatively new (there are no 20yo Teslas
let alone Teslas that have spend those 20yr in salt states) car company,
primarily located in California (!!!), that primarily recruits in California
(!!!), is going to be able to determine "normal corrosion" looks like is
laughable. Even established car companies can't accurately and consistently
predict corrosion 10yr out. Tesla doesn't even have a big enough data-set to
make that prediction, let alone the expertise.

~~~
saalweachter
When I bought a used truck out of PA I was alarmed by the quantity of rust on
the frame, with chunks flaking off here and there. My mechanic assures me it's
holding up fine, with below-average rust for its age.

------
exabrial
It would appear that US law states that the owner of the vehicle owns the
Event Data.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event_data_recorder](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event_data_recorder)

------
spaceisballer
Serious question, Can you get data from any other car manufacturer? I know ICE
cars collect information but do you have access to it?

~~~
foepys
At least the local data can be accessed with OBD interfaces [1] most of the
time. I don't know about stuff like theft prevention where the GPS location of
the car is being constantly transmitted over GSM/UMTS/LTE, though.

1: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On-
board_diagnostics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On-board_diagnostics)

------
thierryzoller
Interested to see how this would play out in Europe under the GDPR. Data
should be personal data and hence each data subject has full rights to access
it.

~~~
tankenmate
Not only that the GDPR requires that organisations provide the data in a
standardised format that is easy to use / export.

------
gwbas1c
Accelerator pedal immediately went from 0% to 100%?

Really?

Even I don't press my brake like that when parking.

~~~
Maybestring
They say abruptly.

And this is normal in a mistaken accelerator pedal application. You press down
on the 'brake', the car speeds up, you panic stomp down on the 'brake' as hard
as you can.

~~~
zootboy
Which would not result in an instant 0% -> 100% reading. One would expect a
gradual slope from 0% to, say, 30%, then a sharp increase to 100% some tens or
hundreds of milliseconds later.

------
toss1
Since there is clearly an interface to obtain the data, used at least by
third-party vendor 'Crash Data Group', it seems it'd be possible to develop an
external logger to plug in while driving.

Such data loggers are commonly used in racecars, using either their own
sensors, or in stock versions, also tied into the OBDII ports. It looks at
everyghing from driver inputs, to engine performance, 6-axis G loads, etc.

Seems it'd be pretty nice to get the data anyway to help manage your own
driving (or check the habits of someone borrowing your car, like your kid),
and in case of an incident, your own log of the events so you don't have to
pester/subpoena Tesla.

------
danso
I have an anecdote, somewhat in defense of Tesla: a few years ago I was the
victim of an armed robbery. One of the things I lost was my iPod touch, which
was logged into a few media services, including Netflix. A few days later,
logging into my Netflix account, I noticed that my "Recently played/Continue
watching" list had some things I had never watched (including the show "Prison
Break").

I called Netflix customer support and asked if I could get location/IP logs.
The Netflix support person was very sympathetic but said that it was not
company policy to release that info. I didn't ask for the issue to be
elevated, or ask about a subpoena (I assume Netflix would respond to a
subpoena).

But IMO, the difference between my situation with Netflix, and Tesla is:

1\. Netflix does not seem to have a practice of divulging my user data in a
public forum.

2\. The circumstances for my data request were unusual -- it's not as if every
time a Netflix-equipped device gets stolen, Netflix is expected to respond, or
even be aware of it. But presumably, Tesla has a data process ready in the
event of every kind of accident, no matter the actual cause or circumstances.

In other words, what I was asking from Netflix was refused because they don't
have a standard operating procedure for responding to info about IP/location
requests. If such a thing were needed, it's not hard to imagine Netflix making
it a service, just as FB and Google data takeouts include login location
history.

But Tesla _does_ have standard procedure for retrieving, storing, and
transmitting vehicle logs, including divulging the data publicly without being
compelled by the government. Which is why users seem to have a greater
expectation that Tesla should be able to send them their own data.

~~~
vkou
Under GDPR, Netflix would probably have to divulge this data.

------
pseudometa
Isn't this true of any car company? BMW, Mercedes, and Lexus aren't going to
hand over vehicle data. You can't just ask Google for your Android Auto data.

~~~
EpicEng
Those companies aren't in the news blaming drivers for crashes which occur
while using their "autopilot" tech. So you may be right, but context matters.
Maybe someday it will be them in the hot seat, but today, it's Tesla.

~~~
ams6110
As I recall, when Toyota was dealing with accidents involving electronic
throttles and "unintended acceleration" they did publicly claim that the
accidents were a case of drivers stepping on the throttle instead of the
brake.

(Note, this was separate from the real problem of floor mats interfering with
the pedals, for which there was a recall).

The NHTSA apparently agreed.

 _Because proof that the ETCS-i caused the reported UAs was not found does not
mean it could not occur. However, the testing and analysis described in this
report did not find that TMC ETCS-i electronics are a likely cause of large
throttle openings as described in the VOQs_

Acronyms and details in the report:

[https://one.nhtsa.gov/About-NHTSA/Press-
Releases/ci.NHTSA%E2...](https://one.nhtsa.gov/About-NHTSA/Press-
Releases/ci.NHTSA%E2%80%93NASA-Study-of-Unintended-Acceleration-in-Toyota-
Vehicles.print#)

------
kerng
For European customers that's a non-issue thanks to GDPR.

------
mysticfluff
A few months ago my valet backed my brand new X into a wall in the garage. I
asked Tesla for the data to help use this for insurance. At no point was Tesla
possibly at fault, but they still told me that in order to get the data I
would need a subpoena.

~~~
thebluehawk
I mean, that seems like a pretty open and shut case for insurance... What is
the purpose of needing the additional data from Tesla?

------
beauzero
Stupid question but don't insurance companies require access to this data?
Seems odd.

------
heisenbit
For Europeans the GDPR may come to rescue. This is data that is highly
personal and thus getting a copy of it or having the right to get it erased
should be possible.

------
radley
1) Does Tesla enforce an arbitration clause with their customers? Most
(shady?) companies do this these days.

2) If so, can the customer actually get a court order in arbitration?

------
macinjosh
I am curious if GDPR has any impact on customer's rights to this data?

------
funwie
What if this request was under GDPR jurisdiction?

------
decacorn1
Toxic decision on Tesla’s part. Yet another fire needing to be put out that
never should have started in the first place. They’re really making things
more difficult for themselves.

~~~
bo1024
This isn't really a single decision, it's an attitude baked into Tesla's
philosophy. You don't own the car; you just decide where to drive it. Tesla
owns your car in every meaningful way (except liability apparently).

------
ASalazarMX
What's the deal with the recent flood of anti-Tesla news? Does someone want to
buy Tesla stock, or is Tesla just no longer cool?

~~~
toomuchtodo
This article [+] explains it pretty succinctly, with as little bias as
possible (TL;DR Tesla is the most shorted stock in the US, while also
endangering entrenched interests).

[+] [https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/5/29/1767826/-The-
War-...](https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/5/29/1767826/-The-War-on-Tesla-
Musk-and-the-Fight-for-the-Future)

EDIT: below content moved up to this comment from danso reply in order to be
more concise as well as to keep signal to post ratio high:

I do my best to provide non-biased sources/citations, as well as provide
arguments without any intellectual disingenuity. If you can find something
that is inaccurate or subjective, please point it out.

It's fairly obvious that the data used by Reveal was manipulated in their
sensational Tesla piece, and I'm happy to continue to aggregate additional
sources that bear that out. You left out the next six paragraphs that explain
why there is no basis in fact for what Reveal wrote.

~~~
danso
> _Step up Reveal, an “independent journalism organization” to start
> “reporting” on Tesla. Quotation marks are normally considered to denote
> sarcasm, and boy do I ever mean it._

Sounds like an article committed to defending Tesla. Not that there's anything
wrong with that, but "with as little bias as possible" is debatable.

~~~
chc
I don't see how you take the writer saying "These people are reporting
outright falsehoods and their falsehoods appear to closely match the talking
points of a PR campaign" as an indication that they're committed to defending
Tesla. If those facts are true, that seems like the sort of thing an unbiased
analysis would explain.

~~~
danso
Yes, but this purportedly-unbiased analysis does not explain these assertions,
and resorts to strawman arguments:

For example:

> _The first of their “personal stories” was about how a person involved in
> developing the factory was told that they can’t use yellow caution tape or
> beeping forklifts because they offend Musk’s sensibilities. The lack of
> these things, according to Reveal, could be to blame for the “high” rate of
> injuries._

The assertion that Tesla lacked yellow because of Musk's preference is
attributed to the factory's former safety lead, Justine White, and documented
in her 2017 resignation letter:
[https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4437759-Resignation-...](https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4437759-Resignation-
Letter-Excerpt.html)

You can argue about whether Reveal should have talked to Tesla's former safety
lead, but the story doesn't assign blame to lack of yellow or whatever for the
rate of injuries. In fact, the story is not about Tesla's "high" rate of
injuries. The story notes that Tesla's injury rate in 2017 fell steeply. The
point of the story is that, according to Tesla's own internal log, injuries
that are mandated to be reported were not listed on the official report.

According to a Reveal followup a month later, Tesla's official injuries report
has been amended with the injuries that Reveal accused Tesla of hiding:

[https://www.revealnews.org/article/tesla-left-injuries-
off-t...](https://www.revealnews.org/article/tesla-left-injuries-off-the-
books-but-it-might-not-face-penalties/)

The dailykos article doesn't have to agree that Reveal was overall in the
right to investigate Tesla, but an objective analysis would note Tesla's
actions in response to the investigation.

In fact, if you read the Reveal followup, you'll see that the added injuries
don't even make Tesla a particular outlier:

> _The additions raise Tesla’s 2017 injury rate to 6.3 injuries per 100
> workers, just above the 2016 industry average of 6.2._

So noting the followup, and the adjusted stat, is well within the comfort zone
of an article that attempts to objectively defend Tesla. Yet the dailykos
writer seems to have completely missed reading the followup and can only throw
insults at Reveal. That does not seem like an "unbiased" analysis to me.

------
caio1982
Danso, by no means I wanted to "stalk" you but I noticed you posted at least 5
negative/harsh articles about Tesla last month, which is fine to me as HN has
a lot of Musk fanboys to counterbalance, anyways, I was wondering if you have
any customer story to share about Tesla that affected you, i.e. did you own
one and it was a bad car or did you lost money investing in them? I am
genuinely interested in that background so if it may read offensive to you
please let me know so maybe I can rephrase it! PS: I would like to buy a Tesla
myself but I can't because of where I live, so I can only read people's
account about them

~~~
pseudometa
Doing it perhaps for the click-bait karma?

Edit: I'm one of those people that believe in what Elon is doing and while I
don't consider myself a fan-boy, I get plenty frustrated by all of the biased
negativity I somehow feel the need to inject some balance by saying something.
That may come across as only ever defending, but the amount of negative fluff
articles is astonishing.

~~~
danso
OK, you've accused me of submitting "click-bait karma" and "negative fluff
articles". Care to elaborate on why you think the article under discussion is
not legitimate?

~~~
pseudometa
It singles out Tesla and provides no broader context. Specifically there is no
mention of the policies of other car companies. It is like saying that Kumo
tires have been in 5 million car accidents. Sounds bad for Kumo, but there is
no context to other types of tires. Will BMW or Lexus provide vehicle data
after a crash? Will Google provide Android Auto data upon request?

~~~
danso
OK, so it's incumbent on you to show where other companies have used data in
the way that Tesla has done in response to accidents. Here's a Guardian
article from last year that made a related allegation about Tesla and user
data:

[https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/apr/03/the-
custo...](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/apr/03/the-customer-is-
always-wrong-tesla-lets-out-self-driving-car-data-when-it-suits)

> _The Guardian could not find a single case in which Tesla had sought the
> permission of a customer who had been involved in an accident before sharing
> detailed information from the customer’s car with the press when its self-
> driving software was called into question. Tesla declined to provide any
> such examples and disputed the description of its automation software,
> called Autopilot, as “self-driving”._

I've Googled around but haven't been able to find instances of other companies
releasing data in the wake of an incident, or being criticized by owners for
not releasing data, though obviously the average car does not have the data
systems that are standard on Tesla.

When Facebook gets criticized in an article for exposing/sharing user data, do
you ignore the article if it doesn't have a complete rundown of how every
other tech company may or may not abuse user data?

------
crb002
No big deal just serve a subpoena on their registered agent.

------
berdon
What use would this type of data be to the average consumer? Outside of the
obvious question of ownership and argument of who owns the data - isn't this
otherwise very similar to being in a plane crash and demanding the black box
data? Surely the data, itself, isn't very helpful compared to the analysis of
the data?

Note: My question is in no way trying to argue against the consumer owning the
data. I'm just wondering how this kind of data could be useful without access
to the means to analyze it.

Edit: Not sure why all the down votes. I explicitly tried to indicate I was
asking a question about the data value and avoiding the ownership question. I,
personally, think the data should be the device owner's property. But my
opinion on ownership and my question wasn't related to the ownership.

~~~
bjpbakker
> What use would this type of data be to the average consumer?

We can also reverse this question: why would Tesla hide this type of data from
their customers so intensely?

One reason that comes to mind on both questions, is that customer's (or
someone on their behalf) are able to review if the crash is due to software
malfunction.

> isn't this otherwise very similar to being in a plane crash and demanding
> the black box data

Most people don't buy (hence own) a plane but buy a ticket with an airplane
company instead. The airline company actually does get to access the black box
data in case of a crash. So do the authorities.

~~~
berdon
This isn't reversing the question - it's asking an entirely different
question. My question was about the value of the data to a consumer.
Presumably, this data is a mixture of location history, sensor/actuator logs
(maybe human readable?), and maybe various state data for ML algorithms.

Depending on the human "readability" of this data - how could someone without
proprietary knowledge find any value in it? That's my question - which is more
leading towards "Tesla won't give drivers a means to analyze their crashes"
which is a much harder pill to swallow as a Tesla driver, law enforcement
officer, etc.

~~~
danso
But Tesla's defense is not that the data is in a proprietary format that can't
be decoded. And even if it were, are you suggesting Tesla logs and stores data
solely in a non-industry format for which there is not an ETL function that
turns it into something less opaque?

And what do you base this speculation that Tesla does something so strange?
Because Tesla has a machine-learning heavy reputation? Google does far more
machine-learning and yet allows us to export data, such as geolocation, in
portable JSON format:

[https://blog.rakam.io/rakam-google-takeout-importer-
analyze-...](https://blog.rakam.io/rakam-google-takeout-importer-analyze-your-
google-search-and-location-history-data-ba45e4c66b1c)

~~~
berdon
"But Tesla's defense is not that the data is in a proprietary format that
can't be decoded."

I never said it was. I'm not sure why you continue to try to come up with
unrelated arguments to push your agenda in a discussion completely unrelated
to what you're talking about.

"And what do you base this speculation that Tesla does something so strange?"

Because educated speculation can lead to positive and constructive discourse?
I have a fair amount of experience in the ML and CS field and I could imagine
a situation where the data is in fact difficult to analyze.

Also, logging geolocation data is a fair amount different than logging neural
weights or other types of ML data. Without knowledge of the types and
composition of ML algorithms those numbers simply won't help you. Which was my
point to begin with.

~~~
danso
You've proposed a reason for Tesla's reluctance to release data that Tesla
itself has not used, so it's you that's bringing up unrelated arguments. Why
speculate on the proprietary formats Tesla may or may not use when Tesla
doesn't appear to have argued that the data was proprietary?

~~~
berdon
You're the only one talking about Tesla in this situation. I never mentioned
Tesla's reluctance to release data. That's your fabrication.

I'm talking about data that's incapable of being analyzed in a meaningful way
without contextual / proprietary knowledge of how that data was created, is
used, and is stored. In reality, I'd wager that most companies have more of
that type of data than not.

~~~
danso
My mistake, I see that your initial post was asking this speculative question.
The first response to you shifted the topic to "What does Tesla have to
hide?", which seems reasonable given the topic of the submitted article, but
that wasn't in your original question.

