
Hacker Scouts is served Cease and Desist letter from Boy Scouts of America - acgourley
http://hacker-scouts.org/blog/hacker-scouts-and-bsa
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peter-fogg
What's that? The BSA is acting in a decidedly unfriendly way? No!

I say this as an Eagle Scout, and someone who had a great time as a Boy Scout
from around age ten to eighteen. The Scouts are a great organization _on a
local level_ , where there's little bureaucracy, and most decisions are made
by or with the boys. You gain a good sense of responsibility when you're the
one in charge of overseeing all the camping gear for your trip, or planning an
outing over a weekend. There's also a lot to be said for the personal growth
that comes from starting as a ten-year-old, learning from the older boys, and
then realizing at age eighteen that you're one of those older boys who is
looked up to by the young ones.

However, the BSA at a _national_ level is a pretty awful organization. They
routinely discriminate against atheists and homosexuals. I'm an atheist
myself, as were many in my troop. Again, at the local level this was fine --
nobody cares, provided the other members of the troop are sensible people
(which, in my case, they were). But at the national level, any atheist is
treated as a Godless Communist.

The same goes for gay boys and leaders. The BSA takes the delightfully
antiquated stance of equating homosexuality with pedophilia, with no shortage
of moral indignation at the idea that people could feel affection for those of
the same gender. Until they do a bit of soul-searching and come into the 21st
century, I'll have nothing to do with the national level of the BSA.

~~~
s-phi-nl
They recently changed their membership standards to not discriminate against
homosexuals.
[http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/MembershipStandards...](http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/MembershipStandards/Resolution/results.aspx)

~~~
tadfisher
Homosexual _scouts_. Homosexual and bisexual adults are still banned from the
organization.

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tingletech
[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:hacker-...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:hacker-
scouts.org/blog/hacker-scouts-and-bsa&strip=1)

Dear Hacker Scouts Family,

For the past several months we have been dealing with an issue that we now
feel is at a point where it is important to let you know what is going on. A
few months ago, we received a Cease and Desist letter from the Boy Scouts of
America when we tried to trademark our name. Through various letters, we have
tried to quietly come to a compromise, but the BSA position is clear: change
our name or they will take us to court.

This is a difficult situation for us. We believe in our name and our right to
use the word "scouts". The BSA's main argument is that they have a
constitutional charter that they interpret to mean they have the right to use
and trademark any word they choose. We disagree. We believe the charter itself
may be unconstitutional, and that "scouts" is a world-wide connotation for a
youth organization that existed before them and will exist long after them. We
have also tried to be very clear in our message that we are not affiliated
with the Boy Scouts nor are we trying to replace them. We do not offer the
same experience, nor do we have a similar model as they do. We did not base
our organization on them.

Our board will be making a decision soon, based on advice from our lawyers and
our own sense of duty. Our primary responsibility is to act in service of our
mission and the kids we serve. We have been thinking a lot about our core
values and what path models those values to the community we care so deeply
about; moving on when it is necessary or standing up for what is right.
Thinking about this situation in that context has been powerful and meaningful
for us.

We will let you know soon what the decision is, and how you can help. Thank
you for your support and understanding.

The Hacker Scouts Staff, Board, Leaders, and Mentors.

~~~
tingletech
This is also interesting:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America#Federally...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America#Federally_chartered_corporation)

The BSA holds a Congressional charter under Title 36 of the United States
Code,[19] which means that it is one of the comparatively rare "Title 36"
corporations in the United States.[20] The 1916 statute of incorporation
established this institution amongst a small number of other patriotic and
national organizations which are similarly chartered,[21] such as the Girl
Scouts of the USA, the American Legion, the Red Cross, Little League Baseball,
and the National Academy of Sciences. The federal incorporation was originally
construed primarily as an honor, however it does grant the chartered
organization some special privileges and rights, including freedom from
antitrust and monopoly regulation, and complete control over the
organization's symbols and insignia. As example, outside of the Boy Scouts and
Girl Scouts, no other youth organizations may use the term "scouts" or
"scouting" in their name.

~~~
dsrguru
So provided Wikipedia's description is correct, the name Hacker Scouts is
indisputably a trademark violation. The question is solely whether or not the
BSA charter is constitutional.

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m0nastic
I haven't been able to get the site to load, so I'm committing the venial
Hacker News sin of commenting without reading the article, but I'm assuming
this is somehow "trademark-related".

I don't know what the branding of Hacker Scouts is, movies have always seemed
able to skirt the BSA trademark issue by calling themselves things like
"Wilderness Scouts", etc. So I'd imagine it would be hard for the BSA to claim
ownership of the entire "scouting" landscape.

I assume these people don't have access to the capital necessary to fight this
in court, which is a shame.

As an Eagle Scout who has been pretty unhappy with the conduct of the BSA
since my teenage years, I would be very happy to see them lose a case like
this (although that's easy for me to say, as I'm not on the hook financially
for it).

~~~
anigbrowl
With movies it's a little different. If I write a fictional story featuring
the 'imagination scouts' I'm not really infringing on their mark because I'm
mentioning a fictional organization with a similar name - I can't mention BSA
because that might imply endorsement or participation by them, but it's OK to
mention an organization of similar type.

But if I'm running Hacker Scouts, now I'm actually competing with BSA for
members to some degree, so if there's any danger of consumers being confused
by the similarity of the marks then the obligation is on me to change it.

Courts treat this 'consumer confusion' as key. As a third example, if I came
up with a brand called 'Night Scouts,' but the brand was attached to a line of
night-vision goggles rather than a membership organization, a court would (I
hope) find a low probability of confusion between the two as long as the
packaging for my product didn't use any graphics, slogans, iconography etc.
that suggested a connection with BSA. BSA might claim that they had total
ownership of anything involving the word 'scout' whatsoever, but a court would
usually find that claim overbroad.

However, that doesn't mean BSA would be wrong to make the claim. One peculiar
things about trademarks (and quite different from copyright) is that courts
take a 'defend it or lose it' view - so if there's a possibility of
infringement, then the trademark owner basically _has_ to make a fuss about
it. If they don't, then later they may have trouble with halting a genuine
case of infringement. So when you hear stories of trademark holders suing over
very faint similarities, it's not that they really really want to shut
everyone else down, but that they're going on the legal record as aggressively
defending their mark against any possible infringer. If they failed to do so,
someone else might point to their non-action as evidence that they had
voluntarily abandoned the mark. Sort of perverse, but there you go.

~~~
eru
> One peculiar things about trademarks (and quite different from copyright) is
> that courts take a 'defend it or lose it' view - so if there's a possibility
> of infringement, then the trademark owner basically has to make a fuss about
> it. If they don't, then later they may have trouble with halting a genuine
> case of infringement.

And that's not only US law. If memory serves right, e.g. German laws are
similar.

~~~
anigbrowl
I forget the name but there's a fairly widely accepted international treaty
about this, since trademarks are almost as old as trade itself.

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Oculus
What I don't understand is what's the purpose of doing this? From what it
seems, Hacker Scouts are merely trying to do good. Why go out and fight that?
I'm curious to hear BSA's side of the story and see if they're being shitty
people or if there are real reasons to them doing this.

~~~
driverdan
(IANAL)

All corps fight to protect their trademarks, even when the 3rd party use is
beneficial. If they don't rigorously defend them it could weaken the trademark
and they could lose it in the future.

~~~
homosaur
See the Red Cross forcing id Software to change the red crosses on medpacks to
pills. I mean who gives a shit, on any level? But some enforcement lawyer got
a bug up their butt and they are paid to do this exact thing.

One of the many reasons I don't donate to Red Cross, actually. Too much money
on advertising and lawyers.

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robbiet480
Boing Boing has an article. [http://boingboing.net/2013/08/19/bsa-to-hacker-
scouts-change...](http://boingboing.net/2013/08/19/bsa-to-hacker-scouts-
change-y.html)

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jevinskie
Here is the relevant law:
[http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36/30905](http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36/30905)

I can't believe that they can claim "scout". After all, scouting is a global
phenomena!

~~~
kevinpet
It's contradicted by title 36 itself, which gives the same exclusive use of
words the organization adopts to girl scouts.

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splendidfailure
This doesn't seem to be unusual behavior for the BSA:
[http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/v?pnam=Boy%20Scouts%20of%20...](http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/v?pnam=Boy%20Scouts%20of%20America&page=1)

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jdnier
I wonder if BSA has a similar problem with the Madison Scouts Drum & Bugle
Corps, which has been around for 75 years?
[http://www.madisonscouts.org/](http://www.madisonscouts.org/)

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samstave
BSA: Cease

HS: No.

Seriously - fark off BSA. You do not own the word "scouts".

And frankly, if ___ANY_ __court said they "legally" did - I would never accept
such a statement. I'd offer BSA exclusivity over the word "Asshole" instead.

~~~
rbanffy
> I'd offer BSA exclusivity over the word "Asshole" instead.

Absolutely no. I use it a lot.

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codezero
Their site isn't responding for me right now, but does this org take
donations? Is there any way people can help fight this?

~~~
splendidfailure
It looks like they've added a PayPal donate button to the bottom right side of
the page

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rbanffy
I see lots of pedobears in their future...

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splendidfailure
The site's back up!

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wavesounds
When I first saw hacker-scouts I immediately thought it had something to do
with the BSA. Probably similar to how if you see something starting with a
lower case i you associate it with Apple. Both organizations are based on
their users trusting their brand so its not surprising they would both
aggressive in defending that brand. Full disclosure: I'm an Eagle Scout

