
Backcountry.com sues anyone who uses its namesake - NorthOf33rd
https://coloradosun.com/2019/10/31/backcountry-com-sues-anyone-who-uses-its-namesake-is-it-bullying-or-just-business/
======
crikli
I’m a climber / skier / runner etc based out of Colorado and between my wife
and we’ve spent a small fortune with backcountry.com. I didn’t know about any
of this. Suing a maker of backcountry skis? Well, fuck you too, private equity
jerkoffs. I’m going to light up my rep on this and let them know my spend and
my recommendations are going elsewhere.

\---

Edit3: GoFundMe for the legal costs of one of their targets:
[https://www.gofundme.com/f/legal-defense-to-fight-
backcountr...](https://www.gofundme.com/f/legal-defense-to-fight-
backcountrycom)

Edit2: A follow-up article with more details on just how predatory and
unreasonable BC (by proxy through their attorneys) have become:
[https://coloradosun.com/2019/11/05/backcountry-com-
trademark...](https://coloradosun.com/2019/11/05/backcountry-com-trademark-
lawsuits-boycotts-backlash/)

Edit, @skierjerry, et, al, here's what I just sent my rep:

Heya <person>,

I read an article about Backcountry in the Colorado Sun that really
disappointed me. Your employer has adopted ugly business tactics and begun
using its size to attack smaller businesses who have the ubiquitous term
“backcountry” in their name.

Please look at my lifetime spend with Backcountry as well as that of my wife.
It is significant. It also stops now, and I’ll be making significant
contributions to the legal funds of the boutique makes and businesses that
your employer is assaulting.

I wish you nothing but the best on a personal level and hope that your
employer chooses to take a better path."

~~~
jngreenlee
Worth a mention...Colorado Sun is a great example of what local journalists
can do after local legacy organizations are snapped up by national/global
organizations.

After the Denver Post was acquired by Alden Global Capital, the paper's hedge
fund owner,they laid of 1/3 of newsroom staff to maintain a profit margin on
the property in the 20 percent range.

Several of those laid off (and some volunteered to migrate), they formed the
Colorado Sun, which is online-only and does actual deep investigations
locally. It's probably still hard and the money isn't easy, but its better
than what we had!

~~~
elandrum
I was quite surprised to see a Sun article on HN today. Been a member as soon
as I moved to Denver last year and have loved seeing it be such a high quality
source of journalism.

------
codingdave
We're seeing this all over. Even on small scales - my wife just had many of
her listings taken down on etsy because a patent troll claimed she owned an
entire genre of crafts. This isn't the place to get into details, though,
because my instance isn't the problem. Even the people doing the bullying, and
etsy letting them get away with it, aren't the full problem. The court system
is a bigger part, because many claims have no merit, but people know that not
everyone can afford to go through the legal procedures to get that answer
declared by a court. We've gotten to a point that you have to have money to
fight some battles. Which means sometimes bullies win because others can't
afford the fight. And setting up GoFundMe accounts every time someone gets
bullied isn't scalable.

We need this to be resolved at a cultural, societal, and/or legislative level.

~~~
rectang
These abuses are a consequence of "money is free speech" and other court
decisions which have moved the US towards one-dollar-one-vote rather than one-
individual-one-vote.

~~~
zentiggr
Don't downvote this, look up James Buchanan and his 'corporate freedom' school
instead, and then come back and say they're wrong.

~~~
jessaustin
hint for those as confused as I was: parent means James _McGill_ Buchanan, who
won the Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred
Nobel. A recent biography has suggested he had a political influence far in
excess of what has been reported in the papers.

------
PietdeVries
And just in the news:

T-Mobile says it owns exclusive rights to the color magenta

[https://adage.com/article/digital/t-mobile-says-it-owns-
excl...](https://adage.com/article/digital/t-mobile-says-it-owns-exclusive-
rights-color-magenta/2212556?utm_source=ad-age-media-
buzz&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20191104&utm_content=hero-headline)

~~~
samsolomon
Well that's outrageous.

It's one thing to sue over similar names—I can see a case that people might
have misconceptions over products. Saying you own the rights to a color is
ridiculous. T-Mobile and Lemonade are in different industries.

~~~
ip26
I still remember when Sony patented (trademarked?) a number.

~~~
michaelmrose
There is a fundamental equivalence between numbers and other concepts. Any
concept can be mapped to any particular number based on the method of encoding
chosen.

Intellectual property is saying that I own this particular result of turning a
number into usable output regardless of starting number.

This is to say that we can't tell without actually decoding the number so we
are in fact asserting that there is a chance we own any and all numbers if
someone later publishes the encoding that would turn your number into a
picture of a cartoon mouse.

~~~
pgreenwood
There is a fundamental equivalence between unique pictures of a cartoon mice
and automobiles. Any automobile can be mapped to any particular unique cartoon
mouse picture based on the method of encoding chosen.

Automobile ownership is saying that I own this particular result of turning a
unique cartoon mouse picture into usable car regardless of starting cartoon
mouse picture.

This is to say that we can't tell without actually decoding the cartoon mouse
picture so we are in fact asserting that there is a chance we own any and all
cartoon mouse pictures if someone later publishes the encoding that would turn
your cartoon mouse picture into an automobile.

~~~
whichquestion
This makes me think of
[https://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23](https://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23)

------
benatkin
I hope that with the proliferation of TLDs this happens often enough that
people get sick of it and we start enforcing the rule that generic words like
_mountain_ and _road_ can't be trademarked. I'd prefer nothing, including
Apple, get grandfathered in. Apple can go back to being Apple Computer or
apple.com, whichever they prefer. I'd like the startup community to insist
that startups like remote.com keep the .com in their name. Some companies,
like hotels.com / hoteles.com still get it :)

~~~
gatherhunterer
What constitutes a generic term? Could I use Rottweiler as a trademarked
brand? What about Dog or Canine? What if I combined “generic” terms like
DogHead?

I think this proposal is too obtuse. These cases bother us because the man who
founded Backcountry Denim was not proven beyond a reasonable doubt to have
intended to encroach on the “backcountry.com” brand, nor was it proven that he
failed to take reasonable precautions to avoid doing so. If that is the fair
and just way to rule on these cases then that should be made to be the way
that the judiciary rules. Proof of innocence beyond a reasonable doubt may not
be exactly the right burden of proof in this case but the point stands that
changing how the judges rule would solve more problems than arguing the
semantics of the term “generic”.

~~~
ben_w
In the UK, a trademark has to be associated with a specific product category.
A business that isn’t Apple Inc., could set up as “Apple T-shirts” or “Apple
Foods” or “Apple Taxis”.

I’m not sure of this is good or bad.

~~~
ip26
Well, it's what prevents Apple Inc. from suing Safeway over their ridiculous
use of the term "apple" to describe red fruit.

------
troydavis
They also quietly share/sell your personal info to third parties (along with
customer info from subsidiaries CompetitiveCyclist.com, Motosport.com, and
SteepandCheap.com). From [https://www.backcountry.com/sc/privacy-
policy](https://www.backcountry.com/sc/privacy-policy):

“We may share information about you as follows or as otherwise described in
this Privacy Policy:

\- With third parties for their direct marketing purposes.”

At least as described in the “privacy” policy, this can include purchase
history, device, geo location, and more, though just name and address would be
bad enough.

~~~
cproctor
Also for the purpose of lawsuits against their customers.

"In September, the website went after David Ollila, a serial entrepreneur who
in 2010 created a short ski for climbing snowy hills he called the Marquette
Backcountry Ski...Backcountry.com argued that Ollila knew he was intentionally
abusing the Backcountry.com mark because he had ordered products from the
website in 2002 and 2010."

~~~
jessaustin
I guess we have to order some Marquette _Backcountry_ Skis now...

------
mmaunder
Backcountry is descriptive, which makes it a weak trademark. One defendant
tried to claim they were in a different category. Why not claim the word is
descriptive and argue to invalidate their use of the mark.

~~~
gnopgnip
Trademarks are granted in specific categories for instance there are at least
three large companies using the name delta, airline, electronics, and faucet
company.

~~~
mynameisvlad
Also a hotel brand now owned by Marriott.

------
BenFrantzDale
I contacted EFF about this yesterday and got this response: “Thanks for
reaching out to us at the EFF and for making us aware of this issue. I'll
share this with the team that works on trademark issues, but in the event you
know or speak with anyone being targeted by backcountry.com, please do have
them reach out to us!“

------
kevlawrence
Interestingly, backcuntry.com redirects to their website. If they don’t have a
trademark on that, they at least exemplify the sentiment.

~~~
ozi
Looks like a redirect w/ affiliate link

------
dottenad
I’ve been on the receiving end of one of these. I used to run the snowboarding
blog bckcntry.com and was given an ultimatum by backcountry.com, either take
down the blog entirely, or advertise solely for backcountry.com and receive
affiliate commissions. I chose the latter.

~~~
markdown
Sellout! :P

------
mark-r
My personal experience has been that a generic phrase in common use cannot be
used as a trademark. There has to be something added to it to make it unique.
I wonder how they obtained the trademark in the first place?

~~~
snowwrestler
Generally speaking you can file a trademark for whatever you want; you just
have to show it is being actively used in the way you say it is being used.

That doesn’t mean the trademark will hold up under a challenge. But a
challenge takes time and money, and a recurring theme in this story (and many
like it) is that one party is way bigger and richer than the other. For a
small business, it’s generally going to be way cheaper to just change their
name than to take on a federal court case against a national company backed by
private equity—even if they think they would win.

~~~
magduf
This is absolutely why we need a "loser pays" civil court system: interested
attorneys should be able to volunteer to take on the case on behalf of the
small business, with an agreement with their client that they only get paid if
they win. Then when they do, they charge the big corporation an absolutely
enormous amount of money in legal fees, which the big company is required to
pay.

A system like this would keep frivolous lawsuits to a minimum.

~~~
chrisBob
I like this idea until I try honestly to defend myself and fail, and the
company says "ok we would like our $10k judgement and $10M legal fees paid
today please."

~~~
magduf
Well it probably needs some adjustments.

So maybe it should be automatic that when a huge company sues a small company
and loses, the small company gets all its legal fees paid plus a big payout
for their time being wasted.

And maybe it should be different if small companies sue huge ones (e.g.,
patent trolls), or if small companies sue each other.

------
23B1
Guys, with the exception of safety and climbing equipment, buy all your
outdoor equipment used, ideally on the local market. Reduce landfill and save
money. Most of the stuff you buy is crap made in China anyway.

~~~
thfuran
It's hard enough to find a decent selection _new_ in the local market. Buying
used isn't a viable option.

~~~
23B1
That's weird because I find a ton of stuff at REI's Garage Sales and on eBay.
A little elbow grease, a light dusting of hydrophobic spray, maybe a little
patching here and there... and my stuff works great!

Also try Patagonia's Worn Wear site!

~~~
thfuran
>That's weird because I find a ton of stuff at REI's Garage Sales and on eBay.

I bet you don't live where I live.

~~~
23B1
But I probably use the same e-commerce sites as you! I'm genuinely curious:
where do you live that ebay doesn't deliver?

~~~
thfuran
How is that the local market?

------
irrational
I wish there was a bullycompanies.com website that listed every bully company,
like backcountry.com, with links to their bullying tactics. Then I could
quickly check the list before making a purchase.

~~~
mLuby
Such a website would likely be a bully itself, so the list of links to
specific instances of bullying should include its list of bullyings. Use of
infinite scroll would appropriate here.

~~~
jdmichal
Would it have to list bullying itself? Or is that the recursion base case?

------
jasonmp85
As a Denverite I was pleasantly surprised to see the Sun on HN. I did sort of
wonder why Backcountry Delicatessen suddenly changed their name to Yampa
(yuck) last year, and the article acknowledges the change states the owner was
never contacted by backcountry.com. So at least they didn’t cause that
monstrosity.

Still, I think I’ve ordered things from them before, but never again.

~~~
milkytron
I was wondering why backcountry changed to yampa as well.

Can’t believe a sandwich shop was targeted by them... and I wonder how
business has been impacted.

------
iicc
1) buy something from backcountry.com

2) be not in the US

3) realise you can't access their website for support because they use geoip
to 302 their entire domain to a different website.

~~~
scrumbledober
1) try to buy something from backcountry.com 2) realize you can't access their
website because you're not in the US

~~~
saithir
Yeah, because no US citizens and customers of that website would ever travel
to Europe.

------
pro_zac
Similar issue that happened with Specialized and the name Roubaix in 2013.

[https://www.bicycleretailer.com/retail-
news/2013/12/09/socia...](https://www.bicycleretailer.com/retail-
news/2013/12/09/social-media-explosion-over-specializeds-roubaix-lawsuit)

~~~
cullenking
I buy lots of custom water bottles from specialized, for our bike business. I
sent an email to our rep saying we had a philosophical disagreement with their
actions, and would stop using them. They received enough backlash which
filtered up to management, apologized, and stopped. It was an effective use of
boycott.

------
bredren
Entrepreneur Magazine does this same thing with the word “entrepreneur.”

[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2011-05-19/entrepren...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2011-05-19/entrepreneur-
the-magazine-that-sues-entrepreneurs)

------
imglorp
This is insane. The term goes back to the 1700s. You can't just take over
random words from the dictionary and start suing.

~~~
c3534l
You absolutely can. I can't come up with a Linux distro and call it "Windows"
for instance.

~~~
magduf
That's because you're doing something that directly competes with an existing
trademarked product. Windows is a computer operating system, so of course you
can't make another computer operating system and call it "Windows".

However, if you want to make some breakfast cereal called "Windows bran
flakes", you're absolutely allowed to do that under trademark law, because it
has zero to do with computer operating systems. Just make sure the box doesn't
look like Windows 10, or the Microsoft/Windows logos, or anything like that.

What we're seeing here is total overreach. "Backcountry" is a common word
that's been around for centuries. So yeah, it would certainly be wrong for
someone to start an online retail business selling outdoor stuff and call it
"backcountry-equipper.com" or something like that. But they're suing people
who are doing totally different stuff, like making jeans, not people operating
online retailers of various outdoor equipment.

~~~
anonymfus
The point could be that window in Windows means an area of the screen
dedicated for an application to display output and receive input from the
user, and such meaning is generic for operating systems.

------
alphag
Kuhl.com has been doing the same thing. Backcountry.com and Kuhl.com are going
after the small guy over nonsense. Both Utah based companies too...

~~~
dylan604
But are they really based in Utah, or just have their paperwork on file there
because it made the most sense to file there? I was given the several options
including Utah and Delaware as a place to file my company. Not sure what the
implication you're making is.

~~~
Jamwinner
No, they are utah based. Utah has a very specific mindset. Its neither better
not worse, but distinct from the nation, and neighboring states, in a way hard
to pin down. Yes, tons of mormons play a large factor, but does not encompass
the whole distinction. Not every implication is nuanced or implying something
large, often we just see something is going on beyond the normal noise.

~~~
dfcagency
I wanted to reply and add on to this, but you're already getting downvoted.
Utah is a very strange place to do business, I'd almost argue it as sort of
isolationist with a love for lawyers, so this makes complete sense.

------
mbostleman
What exactly is the motivation for Backcountry.com to invest the time and
money in doing this? None of the tiny companies and groups they're going after
would cause confusion to customers. Nor is that the intent of the other
businesses. So what's the point?

~~~
burkaman
I imagine they have retained a law firm for trademark issues, and the law firm
is making busywork for itself so it can get paid. And there's some salesperson
at the firm who has convinced Backcountry.com management that "you have to do
this to defend your trademark" or whatever.

~~~
crb002
[https://www.name.com/domain/search/brokebackcountry.com](https://www.name.com/domain/search/brokebackcountry.com)

:)

------
dsleno
Donated to the GoFundMe page, because as a small business owner, this kind of
abuse of our copyright and patent systems really tees me off. I could not ever
spend a cent with backcountry.com now, because to me their brand means
bullying and abuse.

------
kstrauser
That's a false dichotomy: it's both. "Business" doesn't have to mean
"bullying". They're choosing to act that way, even though nothing's making
them.

Also, burn that crappy trademark to the ground. If I tried to make an
inflatable raft company named "River", they should laugh me out of the
trademark office.

------
PhasmaFelis
As long as we allow businesses to bully people with no consequences, bullying
will be remain a common business tactic.

Edit: I cannot imagine what people are finding offensive about this.

~~~
semiotagonal
Indeed. This type of behavior only makes sense if defending trademarks never
incurs a penalty when it gets overly aggressive.

I will avoid buying anything at backcountry.com (unless I forget, which
hopefully I won't), so I guess that's a bit of a penalty this time.

~~~
magduf
I won't forget; I've looked at them before when comparison shopping certain
more-expensive items at REI.

I'll just use REI now; they don't seem to sue people (plus, REI isn't a common
word anyway), they have a fantastic return policy I've used a couple times
now, and I get 10% back for being a member, plus various coupons throughout
the year.

------
hardtke
I always confused backcountry.com with The Back Country, a cool shop in
Truckee ([https://thebackcountry.net/](https://thebackcountry.net/)). I wonder
if The Back Country is old enough to predate the trademark, or they are about
to get sued.

~~~
jozefwhite
i hope not i love that shop!

------
blairanderson
If you aren't sure how you can help, I would suggest returning anything you've
bought there (within the 30-day return window).

Also, click on their ads.

------
deedubaya
I just started a chat on their website, and got an immediate canned response
that "management is looking into it".

What a weak move. Screw them.

------
didibus
Why aren't things like this just addressed promptly and quickly by some
legislative body. Its dumb to allow trademarking of common words and
descriptive terms, can't we just have it legislated already?

How can consumers be confused by that word. If I'm searching google for
backcountry gear, I am not searching for backcountry.com's brand. I'm
searching for backcountry gear. There's no other way to say it. This is
nonsense. It actually harms all other seller of that category. Allowing
trademark of that word makes no sense.

Unless I'm missing something and backcountry.com literally coined the term and
is responsible for its inclusion in the dictionary.

~~~
ISL
The rise of 'backcountry' into prominence roughly corresponded with the rise
of Backcountry as a retailer.

In 2006, ski touring was called 'randonee' as often as it was called
'backcountry' (even moreso in prior years). Similarly, off-trail/rugged hiking
was in the wilderness, not the backcountry, prior to the mid/late 2000s.

I'm not sure how germane that is in this case, as I understand Backcountry has
only filed for the trademark recently.

I don't think the founding spirit of the company is in line with the current
legal strategy -- Backcountry may feel that they must aggressively defend the
trademark in order to have any sort of trademark. As an online retailer, a
trademark seems sensible (a competitor named Backcountry.net seems uncouth).
Suing Marquette Backcountry Skis is utterly inappropriate and absolutely out
of line for the corporate culture I associate with Backcountry.com.

~~~
taude
We called it backcountry skiing in the mid-90s. It was a common name. Euros
probably called it randonnee. But out in Lake Tahoe, California, we called it
playing in the backcountry, sometimes with touring, etc. Backcountry.com
definitely didn't create the word.

~~~
CPLX
I moved to Colorado in the early 90’s and backcountry was already a super
common term. It certainly predates these guys.

I have no idea what this guy is talking about. I’ve never heard the term
randonee until today, and at least in Colorado the term wilderness has always
had a very specific jargon type meaning as referring to designated wilderness
areas, like the Big Blue Wilderness, for example. The term is clearly defined
by the US Forest Service.

------
JohnFen
Bullying or business? It can be both.

To me, whether suing for trademark infringement is ethically supportable or
not comes down to the purpose of trademarks: to prevent consumer confusion
(consumers thinking they're buying the product of one company when they're
actually buying the product of another company).

If a company is suing for trademark infringement, but there isn't any
reasonable chance that consumers will be confused, then the lawsuit isn't
legitimate -- it's just plain old bullying.

------
kbos87
Another avid outdoorsperson here. The industry is full of good people and
great brands - we don’t have to put up with this. I’m done with them, even if
they apologize.

------
beaker52
Worry about naming your company/product due to trademarks, worry about selling
your product due to patents.

Makes me think twice and I haven't even got an idea yet!

------
jfee
I recently listened to a podcast about trademarks which does a good job of
explaining why this, seemingly nonsensical, bully behaviour occurs.

[https://www.cbc.ca/listen/live-radio/1-70-under-the-
influenc...](https://www.cbc.ca/listen/live-radio/1-70-under-the-
influence/clip/11301364-s6e01-archive-the-crazy-world-of-trademarks)

------
icedistilled
One of their gearheads messaged me in one of the regular marketing emails. I
told him I could not do business with them due to their lawsuits. You should
email them too.

Backcountry is a place not a trade-marketable name. Owning the word
'backcountry' is strictly against the outdoor ethos.

If they wanted a company name they could trade mark then they should have
selected a different name.

------
ericmay
I've always had good service/support from Backcountry, but today I emailed my
account manager and let them know that I was disappointed in their recent
actions and that it is a factor in future purchases. Hopefully if enough of us
let them know we disagree with their actions, they'll change tune.

------
diebir
I spend so much money on Backcountry.com, I get personal emails from a
"gearhead" (a rep assigned to me). I have sent him a (very polite) email
asking to inform the corporate that I will be suspending my spending until
this is resolved.

------
chapium
When you can't compete, sue.

~~~
mtbcoder
Eh, they do compete. Service and prices are solid and often better than
competitors. There's zero need to be doling out lawsuits.

------
rolph
if your brand name is so easily confused, with upstart unknown business then
you have a problem with brand awareness and its your fault.

why would you want your brand to be known for lawsuits, rather than a reliable
value added product?

------
briandear
They are suing people with registered trademarks that use the word
Backcountry? How’s that supposed to work? Perhaps the trademark owners should
be suing Backcountry.com!

------
ljsmith93
As someone who has spent a lot of money on backcountry.com I have to say i'm
really disappointed and will be directing my money elsewhere.

------
newshorts
I have a child and it’s this kind of stuff that makes me wonder if we
shouldn’t move out of the US. I worry about the future of this county.

~~~
jessaustin
The land is great, the people are fairly good. It's the system that holds us
back. That doesn't mean the government, although there are aspects of the
government that should be disbanded immediately (hi CIA/NSA!). Mostly we need
to put up with a lot less authority, including in this case that of the
trademark courts.

------
poulsbohemian
Years ago I tried buying some ski skins for a buddy as a gift. Somehow the box
arrived without all the parts (and there isn't much to ski skins, so this was
dumbfounding). Took multiple phone calls and emails with support, where they
seemed at a loss of what to do (I dunno - replace the item / do a return,
duh?). Think I finally got my money back and bought them at REI. Love their
little goat icon, but otherwise soured me from buying from them.

------
PatrolX
Trademark holders are "required" to defend their registration, failure to do
so will result in losing it.

------
imgabe
From what I understand the nature of trademark law is that if you don't defend
your trademark, you lose it. It's not nice, but what are they supposed to do?
Abandon their trademark?

~~~
logfromblammo
They are supposed to do an existing brands search--which starts with the no-
cost-to-the-user registered trademark search provided by the USPTO--before
consciously designing a defensible mark.

That means no one in your category or nearby categories is already using it,
and it isn't already a one-word generic term.

A term like "backcountry outfitters" is more defensible together than either
word alone, but still isn't very good, because it describes a lot of existing
business. Selecting just "backcountry"\--a dictionary word--as your whole
trademark is pure madness. It's analogous to claiming "zymurgy" as your
trademark and sending C&D letters to every micro-brewery in the US, ordering
them to stop using the plain dictionary term for what they do when describing
what they do.

Examples of defensible trademarks would be "Goatsbeard Gear",
"Spelunkatorium", "Voyageur's Choice", "Trailhead Traders", "Avalanchador",
"Rockspider", "Backwild Country", "The Hinterlandery", "Boondock Swamp
Charters".

The point is generating a _unique, distinct, memorable, and non-confusing_
term.

------
kpU8efre7r
Checked out back countrybabes.com and was disappointed.

------
kick
Why not both? Bullying and business aren't exclusive, they go hand in hand.

It's a consequence of capitalism in a market that isn't free.

A free market is bad, obviously, but a lack of it has these sorts of problems.
This company's abuse of the system can be stopped through legislation or
government ruling, but until then it will have to be suffered through.

