
Sick Building Syndrome - wensley
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/sick-building-syndrome/
======
cowpewter
I worked in a building like this. Over the year I worked in that office, my
asthma got gradually worse and worse. I went from using my rescue inhaler
maybe once every couple months (for minor cough/discomfort), to using it
multiple times per day just to breathe. Inhaled steroids (Advair Diskus) were
added to my asthma prescriptions. Eventually I could barely get through the
day without prolonged fits of coughing and multiple asthma attacks.

Went to the doctor again, got diagnosed with bronchitis, sent home with
prescription cough medicine and even more steroids (prednisone) and was told
not to work for at least a week. Got better.

Started coughing again within 30 minutes of entering the building when I went
back to work. Then put together that with the fact that I always felt a little
better after my lunch breaks to realize it was the building itself making me
sick.

We were getting ready to move to a larger office anyway, so got permission to
work from home when necessary until the move. We moved offices, my coughing
stopped. I discontinued all the steroids and now am back to using my rescue
inhaler almost never.

I can't imagine the building had no effect on anyone else, but I definitely
got the worst of it. No one else got sick the way I did.

The building itself was a historic building, a Firestone car repair place that
had been retro-fitted to be an office. It was built in 1927, and then sat
empty since the 1950s, until it was renovated in 2014.

~~~
itronitron
In addition to mold, mildew, and pollen, a lot of people are allergic to
various types of critters and their droppings. I don't want to think about
what can accumulate over 50 years in an empty building.

------
z3t4
Use scientific methods to measure air flow and quality (CO2), and humidity.
You want around 50% humidity and CO2 to be below 700 ppm. CO2 doesn't directly
measure air quality, only how often that air is changed. The more like outside
(around 300 ppm) the better. 35% or lower humidity will effect your your skin
and mucous membrane. A dried out mucous membrane makes it easier to catch a
cold. And dried out skin leads to cracks and itching. But too high humidity
80% + is also bad. If the temperature between outside and inside differs more
then 7 degrees C, it's enough to effect the humidity, for example if it's cold
outside, the cold air expand, leading to less relative water. You can get a
humidifier or dehumidifier to control humidity, and use ventilation to control
air ventilation. Then there's also temperature, you want around 20-23 C to be
comfortable, but I guess you already figured that one =)

~~~
the_jeremy
I recently bought a CO2 monitor, and found that my girlfriend's apartment is
regularly over 1200 ppm. Is there anything I can do about this issue? We can't
just open the windows as it currently ~40F outside.

~~~
z3t4
First check if existing ventilation works. In (old) apartments, leaky doors
and windows works as intake, and air go out from toilets and kitchen
ventilation. Hold a toilet paper tissue at the outtake in the toilet or
kitchen, the air flow should be big enough so that the paper get stuck. If it
doesn't - try opening the door or windows. If it helped to open the door, or
window, you can install window ventilation, which is basically a hole with an
adjustable opening. If opening the window doesn't help you need to move the
air mechanically by installing a fan in the kitchen outtake and/or the toilet.
A fan might solve the problem for you, but might push the air (and smell) into
someone else's apartment ... so it's best to work with the rest of the house,
and do a whole house solution, sometimes it's as easy as cleaning the
ventilation channel, as birds love buildings nests in them because warm air
make it cosy.

------
Dumblydorr
Can anyone recommend a method to be happy in a depressing office for 40 hours?
I am an outdoorsy active person and it is very hard to code in the coldly
manufactured cubicle that I must stay in. Window view is very minimal, walls
are drab, workplace has no fun activities whatsoever, coworkers are quiet at
least, but not welcoming or fun. I just feel spending so much time in that
confined space really hurts my coding and mental game.

~~~
Forge36
Ask for laptop, work next to Windows. Ask for work at home days, remote in. No
luck? Design on paper first, write out your ideas. Spend time in sun outside
writing. Wear graphics like headphones, listen to music, get a "sunlight"
lamp. Bring a space heater, wear heavier shirts/sweaters.

You might need to be the fun person. Invite the team on a hike, plan a picnic.
Set a timer, 8 hours in? Just leave

I don't want to suggest "change jobs". However: if you can't find a way to
make your work better. Set an end date and go for three drastic change. If you
can, move to a new city. Downsize your current living situation.

~~~
Forge36
Someone else suggested stoicism. Try meditating, take walking breaks (helps
warm you up). Take a week cut all caffeine.

~~~
maxxxxx
You have to careful with stoicism. If you have nothing that feeds your soul
then stoicism can also deplete your psychological reserves. There are plenty
of stories of high ranking Buddhist teachers who had a breakdown after many
years because they just pretended to be OK with their circumstances but deep
down weren't.

I used to work from home but the last 6 years I have worked in an office with
brown cubes, no windows, tons of useless meetings, noise and I more and more
realize that this is starting to eat me up from the inside. I think I am
pretty good at dealing with adversity, I live healthily, I exercise, I
meditate, but this is slowly killing my spirit and my motivation. I don't
think changing my attitude would help.

------
mitchtbaum
Literature Review – Microbial Growth in Buildings

[http://paradigmchange.me/building-
literature/](http://paradigmchange.me/building-literature/)

Health Effects of Moldy Buildings – Sick Building Syndrome

[http://paradigmchange.me/buildings-sbs/](http://paradigmchange.me/buildings-
sbs/)

Health Effects of Moldy Buildings

[http://paradigmchange.me/buildings/](http://paradigmchange.me/buildings/)

~~~
davej
I suffered from a wide variety of issues (inflammatory symptoms, weight loss,
extreme fatigue, severe joint issues, gastro etc...) when living in a moldy
house. At first I was sceptical that mold could be the cause because there is
no scientific or medical consensus established for mold and the huge list of
symptoms I was experiencing.

My GP tested me for Aspergillus antibodies and I came back very high. My GP
remained open-minded and went along with treating me with cholestyramine (a
binder that can supposedly bind up mold spores, according to the "Shoemaker
Protocol") and I'm gradually getting better. My Aspergillus antibodies have
dropped significantly. I'm functionally 80% better now but I still have a bit
of a road to travel to return to how I was feeling before all of this
happened. I generally avoid discussing this too deeply with friends because I
know they would be sceptical (as indeed I would be if I had not experienced it
directly).

It's difficult to explain how it feels to be in a situation where you've been
healthy for your whole life and you suddenly come down with a whole host of
symptoms in your late 20s for which doctors can find no biological markers.
You get used to recognising the "internal eye roll" from doctors when you list
your symptoms. It wasn't mentioned directly but you can tell they are
dismissing it as either hypochondria or depression (I have no history of
either and never even visited a GP before any of this started). The most
positive thing that I can take from these last couple of years is that it has
thought me a much higher level of empathy for other people and their
experiences.

~~~
snowwindwaves
How prevalent was the mold in your house ?

~~~
davej
My shower leaked quite badly, whenever I used it then water would drip from
the ceiling below. I did my best to seal it up and forgot about it. Then, I
was away on holidays for 6 weeks during the cold months here in Ireland. The
heating was kept off and there was no natural ventilation in the house. There
was quite a bit of mold on the ceiling when I arrived back but nothing
horrendous. I cleaned up the surface mold with some bleach as best I could and
then painted over it.

There was a very slight musty odour in the house that I masked with fragrances
but mostly I forgot about it. Over the next year I started to develop a lot of
non-specific symptoms.

I never even considered that the mold could be an issue until I started
googling for a really weird symptom that I was having. Everytime I touched
something grounded I would get a static shock, it was happening all day long.
Anytime I touched a shelf in a supermarket or even if my touched my
girlfriend's forehead (depending on the shoes she was wearing and the surface
of the floor).

What was happening here was that the serum osmolality was very high (311
mmol/kg). Essentially there were too many electrolytes in my blood and these
salts were being excreted onto my skin giving my skin a positive charge.
Googling around led me to an interview between Chris Kresser and Dr. Shoemaker
who highlighted it as a red flag for people suffering with mold issues.

------
DoreenMichele
Anecdotally, this can happen without it being the building per se.

When I worked in a cubicle farm, cubicles were not necessarily cleaned out if
someone left. I have serious health issues, including respiratory problems,
and I'm very sensitive to dust, germs, etc. My immediate boss was asthmatic
and yadda.

There was an abandoned cubicle very near both of us that had about two linear
feet of papers in it. They were covered in a visible layer of dust. I
concluded this was negatively impacting my health. I knew no one would believe
me or care. Everyone always acts like I have an overactive imagination.

I began quietly carting the papers out. Anything still usable got
redistributed and re-used. Anything in such bad shape it couldn't be mailed to
customers got dumped in the recycling bins a handful at a time.

It probably took me a week or two to do this in small enough amounts at a time
so that no one would notice what I was doing. My asthmatic boss was on like
round three of antibiotics for bronchitis that wouldn't clear up. After all
the musty, dusty papers were removed, she "coincidentally" finally got better.

~~~
alex__c
And sometimes it's an entire city that's the problem. My girlfriend comes from
a mountainous zone. We live in the city that I was born, a dusty place in the
plains.

Guess what, within one year she developed respiratory problems. We are
actually considering moving towns because it's literally impossible to get rid
of the dust effectively, here.

------
userbinator
I suspect a lot of it is caused by an emphasis on energy efficiency, which
means tightly sealed rooms and HVAC that's set to recirculate the majority of
air rather than bring in fresh air from outside. I've noticed that a lot of
older buildings tend to have more fresh-air ventilation than newer ones for
this reason.

~~~
alexis_fr
Worked in 7 of them, million dollars of brand new buildings... Energy efficent
buildings are efficient because they’re not as mild as they should be, always
too cold in winter, always above 25° in summer (in actual on-the-desk
thermometer measurement), lights switch off at set times when you still work
and no proper way to override anything « because consumption would get out of
the target ». Those building are built for the norms, not for the human
inside. In fact they make you well notice that the human is the intruder. And
they’re here for the next 30-70 years.

~~~
saeranv
Yes. We run energy/thermal comfort simulations to figure out where it's
reasonable to to impose thermal discomfort on our inhabitants. If our energy
models tell us that there's one extreme week that will be really hot, but we
can reduce the HVAC sizing (for cost and energy efficiency), I think it's
prudent to do so. I always argue on the side of reducing energy whenever
possible. That's a couple of days over the course of the year though, we're
not imposing discomfort every day! The industry has also been shifting towards
different thermal comfort models (PMV or Predicted Mean Vote to ATC Adaptive
Thermal Comfort) which takes into account inhabitants changing their clothing
(i.e removing sweater), using personal fans, opening windows to modify their
environment for comfort.

FYI, I work in an office that actively uses all these strategies, and
personally I don't mind it. Even if it's initially uncomfortable, human beings
usually adapt to different thermal stresses in about two weeks of exposure.
And yes, it does require some social/cultural shifts (in N. America
especially) if you're expected to be a more active participant in making
yourself feel thermally comfortable.

ETA: Clarifying thermal comfort strategies.

------
shocks
Five Ways Tower[1] in Birmingham, UK has been closed for years because of
this.

> The building is vacant due to the last tenants evacuating the building due
> to ill health amongst the workforce.

1:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Ways_Tower](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Ways_Tower)

------
honksillet
I had terribly allergic rhinitis throughout my youth, but only at my family's
home. When, after I moved out, my parents pulled out the carpet in my old
bedroom, my allergies at that house vanished.

~~~
redcalx
For me removal of carpets is the #1 thing to do if you have allergic rhinitis,
especially if there are pets.

------
fubarito
been there. landed a great job, loved the coding tasks, had great colleagues.
the office was an open-plan one. seemed cold rightaway for me. sitting under a
ventilation shaft, the cool air flowing was not pleasant but still liveable.
cold all day long but also sweating at the same time as the office didnt seem
to have oxygen. gasping out of a small kitchen window for air - one of few
openable ones :) did some air vents hacking. 4 months i start to feel weird.
cold empassing my bladder, lower stomach. total allergy to any airflow. took a
-20 degree celsius sleeping bag to work. spending my days wrapped in it. didnt
help. switching office desks to see if there's a chair i can sit at. the 40+
people in the open plan obviously see theres a nutcase in the building. my
direct bosses are compassionate though. they see im not kidding. under-table-
portable heating is suggested. geopathogenic zones are suggested existing in
place. i go see doctors. im in pain, my bladder us killing me,
doctors/urologists say everything is fine with me. i cant drive the subway
because theres draught. i google sick building syndrome. us this really
hapenning ? i quit. they let me go rightaway (thx) im fine in two weeks.
havent experienced that since (6-7 years?) but been working in non-
airconditioned buildings since then. fearing the moment a next job has similar
fucked up problems. ill say bye bye right away, wont be waiting for months!!!

~~~
Jarwain
The only thing I can think of is mold-related, but at low enough concentration
that it doesn't affect most people? Sounds like a spooky experience though

~~~
fubarito
yeah, who knows. im not a fan of air conditioning. never been. maybe my mind
just decided "youre not gonna spend your time here boy, open plan offices are
nonsense" and it was all psychosomatic.

funny is the three months contract i had right before this experience was in
winter and i had the pleasure to sit right next to a window having it open
almost all the time facing my back, letting in precious oxygen. paradise ! so
it was not cold air per-se.

to hell with open-plan & air conditioning!

------
ratsimihah
"Hi boss, I can't show up today, I have sick building syndrome. Actually, I
won't be able to show up ever again."

------
beerlord
I'd highly recommend buying a CO2/PM2.5 measurer and seeing what the levels
are in your house or workplace. CO2 over 1,000 PPM has been linked to reduced
cognitive performance. As an aside they function as excellent temperate and
humidity readers for general use.

~~~
gruez
do you have one that you'd recommend?

~~~
elektor
I use the Plume Flow to measure PM2.5.(1)

Then I turn on my Coway AP-1512HH Mighty Air Purifier to clear the air up.

(1)[https://flow.plumelabs.com/](https://flow.plumelabs.com/)

~~~
ThrowMeDown01
> I use the Plume Flow

Uhm.. how?

"Shipping November 2018" and the order button is labeled "Pre-Order".

I'm a bit amazed - and disappointed - by how little information there is on
that product page. The "tech specs" are size and weight and that's it, for
this kind of product? Pretty much everything is missing that I would expect to
know for this kind of product specifically. I even played the clip, still not
a single piece of actually relevant information. The only sentence that says
anything regarding the intended use is

> _Flow measures real-time concentrations of NO2, VOC, PM2.5 and PM10:
> everything you need to understand your exposure and build healthy routines._

Given that they seem to target the "average person" they should probably
explain somewhere what those abbreviations mean (I do, but what "average
person" knows what VOC is?).

No way I would order given the lack of information, given that the price is
$139 (or Euros).

After a quick search for similar products I found this comparison of several
products (2016): [http://energysmartohio.com/indoor-air-quality/which-
indoor-a...](http://energysmartohio.com/indoor-air-quality/which-indoor-air-
quality-monitors-are-best-and-why/)

~~~
elektor
I've already received mine. They've been shipping the Plume Flow for a few
months now, as you can see from these tweets of other customers:

[https://twitter.com/mwt2008/status/1050499520176553985](https://twitter.com/mwt2008/status/1050499520176553985)
[https://twitter.com/BrianScifiFan/status/1040153420001370113](https://twitter.com/BrianScifiFan/status/1040153420001370113)

As I understand it, the Plume is meant for a more general audience so I don't
mind that they don't define what VOCs are in their video. This device is
mobile, which makes it more useful to me than the traditional indoor products.

------
baybal2
Up until around year 2000, very few buildings in Russia were built with
artificial ventilation, and that with non-stop indoor smoking. Any "big box"
building was survivable to me. Back then, it was thought as something normal,
to the point that people regarded not having stuffy air and +26~ indoors as
"cold and inhospitable."

This is one of reasons I don't like the country. I think, even today, when
Russian people who never been abroad, come to America, the first thing they
notice is how good is the ventilation indoors.

~~~
baybal2
Typo *unsurvivable

------
tokyodude
Does anyone have any experience with air quality sensors what would easily
tell me if the air in the building I'm in is bad along the lines of sick
building syndrome?

Ideally some sensor that's relatively inexpensive and easy to use and connects
to smart phone? There's several out there for home use but I'd love to carry
around something that just told me constantly and also that was more than just
particle density sensor.

~~~
Something1234
I saw quite a few arduino sensors so you could build your own. I've linked a
couple, but I haven't bought them yet.

[https://www.amazon.com/KEYESTUDIO-Particle-Monitor-
Arduino-R...](https://www.amazon.com/KEYESTUDIO-Particle-Monitor-Arduino-
Raspberry/dp/B07B2PFPB5/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1541976906&sr=8-3&keywords=arduino+air+sensor)

[https://www.amazon.com/Keywish-Detector-
Mega2560-Raspberry-B...](https://www.amazon.com/Keywish-Detector-
Mega2560-Raspberry-
Beginners-x/dp/B01N1UB89A/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1541976906&sr=8-7&keywords=arduino+air+sensor)

~~~
ungzd
The first one does not have filter so it will count large particles, such as
regular dust, too. This does not makes it useless but this should be taken
into consideration.

~~~
ungzd
Sorry, seems that similar sensors doesn't need filters and detect particle
size ranges by intensity of scattered light. However, I can't find information
about what sizes this sensor detects.

------
Spooky23
My father in law was the fire chief in a city where a locally famous
government building was notorious for sick building syndrome in the 90s.

The building was and is a soulless cube farm with floors alternating in color
from institutional green/gray/orange/blue.

It was 90% psychology, usually kicked off by a smell, anything from wet hair
to popcorn to paint. They were medically evacuating a dozen people a day at
the peak hysteria.

His solution was to park the fire truck and ambulance behind well out of site
and respond in a UHaul truck. The fireman/paramedic left turnout gear behind
and wore a hoodie over their uniform, and turned off radios. Once they did
that, the calls went down to 1-2 a day and went away about a week after that.

------
sershe
Heh, now that I got reminded of this... I had throat pain for 7-8 weeks or so
after moving into an old house. It would go away when I was away from home.
There's no obvious mold, dust, moisture etc. problem; so I was about to
schedule a professional air test, when the throat pain stopped and never came
back. Also, my wife never had any problems.

What would you think that was? A temporary sick building? My only hypothesis
is that I am allergic to something outside the house that is not there anymore
now that it's fall. However, the plants around the house are basically the
same stuff that's present everywhere around town.

~~~
itronitron
Pollens tend to be very seasonal so it could be a specific type of pollen
outside, or it could be due to an inadequately ventilated or insulated (and
very hot) attic pushing stuff into the rest of the house during the summer
months.

If you have lived in the same town for over five years without any issues then
it probably is not pollen. In which case if you own the house then you can
have someone check the attic ventilation, and schedule the hvac system to be
cleaned out or replaced. If you rent then just plan on moving within a year.

------
rabidrat
It's so weird, I've had something like this at a co-working space I was at.
Upper level smelled "musty" or something to me, and I felt half-sick every
time I would spend a full day up there. Went to the lower level and was fine.
When they consolidated to the upper level only, I went with, and my symptoms
returned. It was so consistent that I had to leave, but I still feel weird
about it...how come no one else was experiencing this? They couldn't smell the
same smell and seem to be fine working there day in and day out. Am I really
that hypersensitive?

------
tartoran
I think carpets are the source of a lot of problems with office buildings.
Carpets and problematic central air, with possible mold, bad filters, etc. In
the US it is not possible to open the widows in these types of offices.

------
moneytide1
Reduced body movement, "conditioned" air, relatively stagnant airflow (even
when turned by metal fans, not the quality air that has most recently blown
through vegetation)

------
noobermin
I'm surprised they didn't mention allergies. Dust mites and mold can cause
many of these symptoms in people (this is what I deal with in my own
apartment).

------
itronitron
It would be interesting to see a comparison of office spaces broken down by
age and type of HVAC ducting (or other types of heating in general such as
radiators).

~~~
specialist
Central HVAC is like carpeting: a disease reservoir and vector.

FWIW, my house had central heating, forced air. I had the ducts regularly
serviced, vacuumed.

I recently ripped out all the ductwork. The inside was still nasty. No wonder
my allergies had never really improved. (Much better now with electric
heaters.)

I try to not think about HVAC in offices. Newer is better, I suppose. Less
time to absorb scuz.

~~~
itronitron
Yeah, it's too bad that in so many homes the ductwork is inaccessible for
cleaning.

