
So, leboncoin.fr doesn't like my email alert webapp - jfoucher
http://lebonmail.com/courrier_lebonmail.com.pdf
======
hbbio
Almost incredible.

An extract (translated to English): "no hyperlink TO [our site] can be done
without prior agreement". I hope they're suing Google too :)

~~~
kubiiii
I'm ashamed to be french when I see this kind of horse shit. The internet is
not compatible with their TOS.

~~~
skrebbel
Why are all the French so ashamed to be French all the time?

I've seen Frenchmen ashamed to be French when a Le Pen won something
somewhere. I've seen Frenchmen ashamed to be French when an anti piracy group
pirates a logo. I've seen Frenchmen ashamed to be French when some president
felt the need to compensate for something by blowing up a nuclear bomb in the
pacific.

Somehow, anecdotally, being ashamed to be born somewhere is a particularly
French phenomenon. Why?

France has all the above things, but also a great healthcare system, nice
people, a somewhat functional democracy, and many other great things.

There's 60 million Frenchmen. Are you going to be ashamed every time one of
them does something wrong? Do you expect them to be ashamed every time you do
something wrong?

Instead of shame, maybe it would be more constructive to organize and do
something about it. The ivory tower of the French political elite is
notorious, but not unsurmountable.

~~~
madeofpalk
Americans are ashamed of being American, Australians are ashamed of being
Australian, the French are ashamed of being French.

It's a pretty common thing across every culture where people attribute the bad
things that happen around them to the geography or culture when in reality,
there are crappy drivers all over the world.

~~~
skrebbel
Might be just me, but I've never seen Americans be ashamed of being American
in situations like these. Their standard reaction seems to be "boo! call your
representative!"

------
meepmorp
This post is confusing both because I do not speak French and because the
caffeine hasn't kicked in yet, so I read that as LeBron Coin. Which doesn't
seem all that bad for a gimmicky crypto currency, honestly.

~~~
jfoucher
So there's this website that's the 7th in france according to Alexa
([http://www.alexa.com/topsites/countries/FR](http://www.alexa.com/topsites/countries/FR))
It's the craigslist of france. They don't have email alerts so I built a web
app that does just that.

Then they noticed the traffic from my server (I guess) and blocked my IP from
scraping their site, making the app basically useless, so I just forgot about
it.

Now they are telling that I'm using their trademark in a way that can make
users confuse my service with theirs, that according to their TOS I can't
event link to their website without authorization (am I even bound by their
TOS if I don't use their website?) and so on and so forth.

It was just a side project for me, so I don't mind dropping it.

The source code is on Github though if anyone is interested
([https://github.com/jfoucher/lebonmail](https://github.com/jfoucher/lebonmail))

~~~
ekianjo
Use proxies.

~~~
alistairjcbrown
That's a bad idea - doing that shows intent to circumvent an intended block.

See the last notable case "Craigslist v. 3Taps":
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Fraud_and_Abuse_Act#No...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Fraud_and_Abuse_Act#Notable_cases_and_decisions_referring_to_the_Act)

~~~
wukerplank
I'm not sure if this is applicable to French/European law.

Nevertheless: If somebody doesn't want you to scrape, don't do it.

------
wallzz
In brief , Craiglist french website version known as "leboncoin.fr" sent a
letter to the author of "lebonmail.fr" a website that uses leboncoin.fr API to
send its users a daily email alerts of items to be sold on "leboncoin.fr". The
letter ask the author to stop using the service provided by leboncoin.fr
immediately .

~~~
kubiiii
There is no official API for Leboncoin, neither alert option, explaining the
creation of the op website.

~~~
wallzz
Yes there is no official API , basically the tool scrap HTML website content,
I don't know if that is legal or illegal according to EU laws. but its like
scrapping Google search result, and I remember that it was illegal in the US
law.

I think leboncoin.fr has the right to ask him to stop the service. but they
also have to offer an API to the developers who seek to tweak the service .

~~~
mivv
They have to? I don't think so...

------
eloisant
Next time build a browser extension or a mobile app.

This way the traffic comes from all your users, not one single IP address and
you have a better chance to stay off the radar.

------
bertil
Scraping is clearly covered by robots.txt, one of the earliest conventions on
the web. In their case
([http://www.leboncoin.fr/robots.txt](http://www.leboncoin.fr/robots.txt))
they allow the spiders from most commercial search engine, but disallow all
others.

I think it's a terrible idea from Schibsted (the Norwegian owners of the
company) to react like this; but then again, lawyers...

------
baby
Leboncoin is so badly made it's a joke, and they completely monopolize the
market. I'm raging just thinking I'm gonna have to use it to look for an
apartment and sell my furniture in Bordeaux those next months. Makes me want
to build a competition.

~~~
kubiiii
Salut confrère Bordelais! The thing is that with 24 M+ listings and a free
basic service, no one will ever be able to compete. Maybe alternatives would
be possible if limited to a specific area.

The weak spot of leboncoin is that you need to pay a stranger before getting
your stuff. There is a non negligible portion of scam.

If you want a hand...

~~~
dgerges
Hello Bordeaux, Ici Rennes.

LeBonCoin spent like 2M€ in adwords the year they started. I've seen them grow
like crazy. I really doubt someone can compete head to head with them today.
That would need to be very disruptive or very niche.

------
julie1
to sum up the author of the news and recipient of the mail cannot read french
correctly.

It is a cease and desist letter on the use of a name «lebonXXX.fr» that in all
due respect seem is a clear parasitism of a registred brand: it bears a
similar name, it is related to the activity of the original site. And le
boncoin.fr is registered @ l'INPI (national registration office of brands).

In PI law, the infringement is about the confusion that results in the brand
aka reputation and not on the use of an external API.

It does not mean I support leboncoin, because I could not care less. @ least I
don't appreciate people misleading others based on fake victimisation.

Cher jonathan: en matière de droit «nul ne peut se prévaloir de ses propres
turpitudes»

~~~
kubiiii
You have a point, but even if the author rebranded his website, he would still
violate the TOS when providing direct links to listings (and maybe when
scraping the website but this is not clearly forbidden in the TOS). The
discussion is mostly about this (I think).

~~~
julie1
This would be another infraction :)

And the author is misdirecting the readers by providing a document not related
to the claim he makes (TOS infringement vs «droit des marques» infringement).

EDIT/PS «nul ne peut se prévaloir de ses propres turpitudes» means that you
cannot prevail your self of any wrongs if it is initially resulting from you
not respecting the law. For instance if you build your company on a clearly
fraudulent base (parasitism), you cannot claim for any reparation if you are
shut down because it is a clear consequence of your actions. As a result, for
the lawyer «faisceau de présomption valant preuve» his credibility in front of
any juridiction would be voided.

~~~
kubiiii
This other infraction is also clearly mentionned in the lawyer letter.

------
torvix
they did the same thing to lebitcoin.fr last year

[http://www.numerama.com/magazine/26352-le-bon-coin-
demande-a...](http://www.numerama.com/magazine/26352-le-bon-coin-demande-a-
lebitcoin-de-cesser-son-activite.html)

~~~
Royaleagle
It's interesting to see that they allow [http://www.site-
annonce.fr](http://www.site-annonce.fr) to use their ads.

I think there is a lack of a geolocalisation service on the lbc website.

I know that [http://www.spothers.com/fr/](http://www.spothers.com/fr/) is
working on it. A umpteenth tentative to beat lbc.

------
yp_all
Correct me if I am wrong, but maybe one way to look at the CFAA or situations
like this one is that every website has the right to deny access to any
particular user.

This can be done via firewall ruleset but also via cease and desist letter.

That seems reasonable.

But... for this type of approach to make sense with respect to a website that
wants as much traffic as posssible, we have to make certain assumptions.

One assumption is that few if any users will automate their usage.

If hundreds of people began to write their own "apps" to automate how they use
this website, then the lawyers would have a more serious problem that they
might not be able to solve.

The website operators might have to reconsider their access model.

Could they move to a subscription-only service?

Could they use a whitelist of IP address blocks?

Could they still be competitive if they began to move away from open access?

In my opinion, the practicality of the cease and desist letter approach to
website access (anyone can access except if we tell you to stop) is reliant on
expected patterns of usage.

When kids learn how to program in school, should that day ever come, then they
will learn how to automate. They wil be able to write their own "apps".

Will cease and desist letters and the judicial system be fully automated at
that point? (The evolution of the DMCA comes to mind.)

The RIAA and others have tried to sue large groups of users all at once and it
did not achieve anything except bad PR. Could website operators bring
proceedings against large numbers of users and succeed?

------
eaxbin
Anyone care to explain, to the non-french-speaking crowd, exactly what
leboncoin is? And what the letter says?

~~~
kubiiii
This is our craiglist. And they also have the craiglist of many other
countries. The website op made crawls leboncoin and other websites to look for
specific items for people. The letter mentions both the use of a "closely"
related name and the linking of listings as in violation of the TOS.

~~~
eaxbin
Thanks!

That's, fairly crazy.

------
dgerges
Hi Johnathan, they deliberately don't want to provide email alerts or even a
decent search because that would break their rather excellent business models
(users spend hours browsing pages of listing rather than searching which
drives page views and ads impressions). They killed a site similar to yours a
few years ago (leboncoinrss or something along the lines I believe). I
wouldn't try to base a business on something which hijack the user experience
they have created. On my spare time I'm scrapping their site to do some data
analysis and so far despite the traffic I generate no problem. Let me know if
you want to discuss that.

------
lbr78480
Hello,

I am now building some kind of (read) API to the website.

The work is in progress, and on a restricted area (one country) I am able to
index all pages in near real time (near...).

Maybe someone of you may be interested into some info or collaboration ?

Here is my email jhin2g9e8o2ik7j at jetable dot org

Bye Lbr

~~~
Royaleagle
I have mailed you

------
pilooch
leboncoin.fr is known for developing all necessary tools internally. So...
they should hire this guy, that's all! losers...

