
Canada's Toughest Border Crossing - pseudolus
https://thewalrus.ca/canadas-toughest-border-crossing/
======
Scoundreller
A short summary of what’s going on here:

The land in question involves an aboriginal reserve that has a border going
through it.

Canada used to have its border post at the physical border. But felt that this
allowed too much smuggling with the reserve all around it.

So the feds move the border post inland: at the border of the reserve and the
rest of Canada.

As a result, the “correct” procedure to enter the Canadian side of the reserve
is to:

1) exit USA

2) drive past your intended destination to the border post (I suppose they
could create the world’s largest duty free or free trade zone)

3) drive back to wherever you were going.

~~~
snambi
Should Canada leave the aboriginal reserve, because it makes more sense?

~~~
vkou
The thing that would make the most sense would be to allow the First Nations
tribe in question to vote on which country it should belong to, and,
regardless of the outcome of the vote, to grant all residents of it dual
citizenship (Due to existing ties that members of the tribe have to persons
living outside of the reserve.)

Everything else either:

1\. Compromises the border. (If you don't care about the border, then this
point is, of course, negotiable.)

2\. Draws an arbitrary geopolitical line, that benefits[1] two super-
powers[2], at the expense of the rights and freedoms of a nation, that has
been there long before the existence of Canada and the United States, and will
likely remain long after.

[1] Actually, it's not even clear if there are any benefits to the current
state of affairs.

[2] Think Germany, being split in half by the East/West border - or the Berlin
wall. It sure as hell wasn't built for the benefit of the Germans.

~~~
labster
The obvious solution is for the United States to negotiate an open border with
Canada. Policy changes might be needed on both sides, but the economic
benefits of open borders between allies with similar economies is undeniable.

~~~
bmer
Canadian here, and I'd like to say: uh, no, thanks.

Canada has a very different culture than the US. Examples:

* compare types of crimes, and rates of crimes in major Canadian cities versus major US cities

* existence of many "socialist" policies, which all work on the following: "you contribute a small amount uniform across all citizens, to the national piggy bank, and the national piggy bank doles out to those in need (which may very well be you, but hopefully not, because things are likely not going to be in a good place for you then)"

* existence of media which would be "drowned" out by the US, if it weren't protected/supported by the government (e.g. CBC)

* different viewpoint on how to integrate minorities and First Nations so that _everyone_ can prosper, together---partially because of the way history played out (not because "we're better")

* different take on nationalism

I actually get the US's immigration concerns. I really wouldn't want Americans
flooding into Canada (no offense, but yeah, there are just major cultural
issues which would need to be fixed first, otherwise the majority will just
"win out").

Reading my post, I begin to realize that it could be taken very negatively. I
want to convey the fact that my parents chose to immigrate to Canada, and not
the US, for a reason. We would feel really weird if the countries somehow
started to "integrate" further, unless it was Canadian "culture" that
dominated. Otherwise, I am not sure if home would feel like home anymore (I
don't feel like an outsider in Canada, but I often do feel like an outsider
when I visit the US).

Immigrants who arrive to the country are usually extremely grateful, and
willing to integrate into the bigger picture, or at least, that's the vision
that Canada seems to operate under. This seems to create lower levels of
"tension", less "ghetto-ization", and so on. I think that's the biggest
culture difference between Canada and the US: most people aren't constantly
thinking about the worst that could happen, and the worst generally doesn't
happen.

I might be totally wrong. Scratch that: I really hope I am totally wrong.

~~~
labster
I don't see how _any_ of those things relate to open borders. Having different
cultures doesn't preclude an open border; see Scotland and England for
reference. Can you please clarify?

It's funny. I asked a friend of mine if she would oppose open borders with
Canada, and she said that the US couldn't afford to deal with all of the
Canadians that would flood into the United States. So which is it? I feel like
this is a reflexive conservative argument that all of these X are going to
come to our country and change our culture and take our stuff. Why is the
first one bad, and is there even any evidence for the second?

Meanwhile, we're all leaving money on the table because of our fears:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17382400](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17382400)

~~~
amscanne
Scotland and England are not really different countries, despite what people
there might say. They’re just local political divisions, less significant than
a Canadian province.

I assume that the theoretical open borders policy you’re describing would
still leave in place immigration restrictions, so I don’t see why the rush of
Canadians would overwhelm the U.S. (since they can’t work legally).

I see at least a couple big road blocks though. First, both Canada and the
U.S. impose selective tariffs and restrictions on imported products from
across the world. An open border would effectively allow venue shopping, as
products imported to Canada would find themselves in the U.S. and vice versa.
Even for local products, Canada standards for e.g. cheese seem like they would
be much harder to enforce. Second, both Canada and the U.S. choose who to
admit to the county based on their own polices (criminal backgrounds, specific
blacklists, etc.). These would have the same problem with an open border.

An open border would effectively require a lot of these policies to be unified
for Canada and the U.S., much like the E.U. While there are benefits, that’s a
lot of autonomy to give up.

------
CoolGuySteve
There's an entertaining CGP Grey video about other oddities in the US-Canada
border.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMkYlIA7mgw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMkYlIA7mgw)

Considering how inconvenient it is in some geographies and how small the
patches of land are, I'm always surprised the State Department doesn't
negotiate a land exchange treaty with Canada to fix what are essentially
cartography bugs.

Both sides would spend a few tens of millions compensating people for land
seizures and dealing with the administrative overhead of negotiating and
ratifying the deal but would gain it back over time with simplified border
stations.

~~~
grawprog
I grew up in Delta near Point Roberts. It's a part of America located on the
southern end of a peninsula, the rest of which, is part of British Columbia.
They have an elementary school but not a high school in point roberts. So,
when I was in high school, most of the people from Point Roberts would be
bussed into Tsawwassen but we had a bus that would bring a few of them to the
high school I went to.

That seems like a perfect area that could be part of your land exchange idea.
All the teenagers there end up going to school in Canada anyway. There's only
one crossing between Point Roberts and Canada.

~~~
Scoundreller
Then where will Canadians deliver their EBay, Amazon and other US vendor
packages?

Have you seen how much cheaper auto parts are in USA?

~~~
snaveed
Blaine. :)

------
ilamont
The article covers the issues quite well. It's hell for the people who live on
either side of the border, and relations with the authorities on the Canadian
side have been especially bad - in addition to the protest about CBSA border
guards carrying guns earlier in the decade, there was a violent land dispute
at another Mohawk reservation about 30 miles to the east in 1990 in which two
people including a Quebec police officer lost their lives
([http://www.rcinet.ca/en/2018/07/09/shooting-death-police-
ind...](http://www.rcinet.ca/en/2018/07/09/shooting-death-police-indian-
canada-history-july-11-1990-the-crisis-and-death-at-oka/)).

The smuggling issue is not just something that takes place on the Akwesasne
area of the St. Lawrence, either. It happens throughout the Thousand Islands.

------
refurb
Back when tobacco tax were much higher in Ontario and Quebec, the Akwesasne
reserve was a key smuggling area for bringing low tax US cigarettes into
Canada. I remember seeing videos of Ski-doos hauling sleds stacked high with
cartons of cigarettes.

Eventually Ontario and Quebec (and a few other provinces) dropped their
tobacco taxes to remove the incentive to smuggle.[1]

[1][https://www.nytimes.com/1994/02/09/world/canada-cuts-
cigaret...](https://www.nytimes.com/1994/02/09/world/canada-cuts-cigarette-
taxes-to-fight-smuggling.html)

~~~
flyGuyOnTheSly
How much higher could they have possibly been in Ontario? A pack of Du Maurier
runs you almost $20 CAD these days...

~~~
refurb
This was a long time ago. NY Times article says $44 for a carton in Ontario
versus $15 or so in the US.

Obviously different times. However, the increase in taxes in the US made even
higher taxes in Canada possible.

~~~
Scoundreller
The price disparities between untaxed "reserve" cigarettes and non-reserve
cigarettes is still there.

But they're often manufactured in Ontario now and find their way around.

Currency exchange rates can play some element.

New York State already has a lot of domestic demand for untaxed tobacco now
that they're upped their taxes (again).

------
rkagerer
I recall camping on a small island on the Canadian side of the Thousand
Islands. We planned to visit a dive site a short boat trip away, on the US
side. Since tying up to a mooring was technically "making landfall" in the
other country (even though there was no land involved), you had to go two
hours out of your way to check in with the border post first.

At the time you could apply for an I-68 pass allowing boaters to report in by
phone when doing short, innocuous crossings like this (with some restrictions,
i.e. the trip is less than 72 hours and you stay within 25 miles of the
shoreline).

It was super convenient. I wonder if a system like that could work here?

~~~
Spooky23
Probably not.

The part that’s missing in the article is that the reservation is a major hub
of smuggling and various frauds.

------
kuhhk
Reminds me of the Northwest Angle, which requires you to cross the Canada
border to get back into a small piece of America that is self-contained within
Canada. And odd piece of geographic borders:
[https://lakeofthewoodsmn.com/northwest-
angle/](https://lakeofthewoodsmn.com/northwest-angle/)

~~~
bonestamp2
Also Point Roberts Washington. School kids are bussed daily from the US
through Canada to the US, and then back again at the end of the day.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_Roberts,_Washington#Educ...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_Roberts,_Washington#Education)

~~~
tropo
We could trade those of course, but we could also connect them.

It looks like Point Roberts needs an 8-mile tunnel and the Northwest Angle
needs an 11-mile tunnel. Causeways would probably work too.

------
syrrim
The policy under which they might gain the right to mobility - proof of
ancestral custom - fixes in place what would have been a continually evolving
aspect of historical culture. _The Orenda_ discusses a particular huron tribe
picking up their whole village, including their dead, and moving it somewhere
else - a practice they would repeat every few years or so. They couldn't
recall any one place to say "thats where our ancestors lived" except to point
at the whole territory where they made their various villages. The policy of
requiring 50% native blood seems also geared towards eventually ending this
allowance, given that entropy never decreases.

~~~
lainga
By that same logic, every noble house in Europe would have gone extinct by
now. It's not hard, especially when you're dealing with isolated communities,
to keep a lot of genetic continuity for a long time.

~~~
yholio
You don't need a 50% blood line to maintain your nobility title, you inherit
the title from someone else, usually your father just like, and usually along
with, a house or an estate.

To make it like aristocracy the rule should apply recursively, you are a
Mohawk if 50% of your ascendants are Mohawks as defined by the same rule.

~~~
milesvp
I once new a guy who was working really hard to keep a blood % out of his
tribe treaty in Washington state. Said it was really hard to get his tribe to
realize just how valuable it was to only have to show lineage, and not how
much. The US (state?) government wanted to pay a small sum of money as due
consideration for the treaty change, and he just couldn’t get the tribe to
understand that the money would be gone in less than a few years, but that
their grandchildren would likely have a harder time. I don’t think it helped
that this guy looked pretty white, and wonder if there were people in the
tribe who thought this % clause would help keep people out of the tribe who
maybe didn’t look like they belonged.

------
vermontdevil
The Haskell Free Library in Derby Line and Stanstead Quebec is quirky. Half in
Canada and half in the US.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haskell_Free_Library_and_Opera...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haskell_Free_Library_and_Opera_House)

Both towns are fascinating as well. Worth a visit in the summer/fall.

~~~
iggldiggl
In relation to that, some time ago I also stumbled across this photographic
documentary of the whole US/Canada border:

[http://www.clui.org/section/united-divide-a-linear-
portrait-...](http://www.clui.org/section/united-divide-a-linear-portrait-
usacanada-border)

------
em-bee
how about putting the US border-crossing on the canadian side and the canadian
border-crossing onto the US side?

though politically unlikely, this would be the most practical.

in order to enter the reservation from the US side you need to be cleared to
enter canada but you are not actually leaving the US until you leave the
reservation on the canadian side.

the reverse process from the other direction.

people who live in the reservation never need to cross any border checking. it
also means you are only able to enter the reservation if you are allowed to
stay in the US and in canada. not a problem for locals, but maybe for tourists
who eg. have a visa for canada but not for the US.

it would also mean that the stricter laws of both countries would apply. no
guns in the reservation as per canada's laws for example...

------
drinkcrudeoil
What's so great about those two countries that makes the border control to be
overly diligent?

~~~
CoolGuySteve
They both have a surplus of bored and/or vindictive officials.

------
agjacobson
Escape at Dannemora

------
lawnchair_larry
Seems off topic?

~~~
deathanatos
If you click "Guidelines" at the bottom:

> _On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes
> more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the
> answer might be: anything that gratifies one 's intellectual curiosity._

Frankly, I enjoy this "topic"; people post interesting things that I would
have never otherwise learned about. Particularly Wikipedia articles; for
example, I learned about Pando[1], one of the largest organisms on Earth: it
is an Aspen grove occupying 106 acres, but it's still a single _thing_. To me,
that was mind blowing the first time I read it; I wouldn't have ever
recognized such a thing even if I were there in person.

[1]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pando_(tree)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pando_\(tree\))

~~~
pseudolus
Pando is fascinating and would definitely be worth visiting. Another large
organism that got some press recently is the "Humongous Fungus" which covers
2,385 acres of forest in Oregon and is apparently one of the oldest organisms
on earth [0]. There's definitely the potential for a sci-fi movie.

[0] [https://www.nationalgeographic.com.au/nature/the-worlds-
larg...](https://www.nationalgeographic.com.au/nature/the-worlds-largest-
living-organism.aspx)

