
Handwriting vs. typing: is the pen still mightier than the keyboard? - benbreen
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/dec/16/cognitive-benefits-handwriting-decline-typing
======
andreastt
I'm constantly bewildered by this notion that writing by hand is slow and thus
bad, and that typing is fast and consequently good.

In my daily routine work as a programmer I find most of my work consists of
thinking rather than writing. Or to twist the words a little: I don't think my
typing impairs my creative ability, because the hard part of my job is
thinking out the right solution. If you can't hold that thought in your head
without typing the solution into your program quick enough to run and test it,
perhaps you're not seeing patterns clearly.

As I work I constantly scribble notes on paper as I find it helps me think.
When debugging a concrete problem, I find myself jotting down elements of the
stack trace on paper so I can more easily retrace my steps. Concurrently I
write down interesting things I come across that needs checking which I can
return to when I'm done with my current line of thought.

Yet I'm fully aware I'm moving against the tide. I occasionally write longer
pieces by hand several times a week, such as theories and findings. This helps
me internalise patterns, solutions, and conclusions to interesting problems.
Occasionally there are patterns and I can correlate good solutions to a
problem to one I've solved in the past. But foremost it helps me _think_
better about the types of problems I'm trying to solve.

Programming is a creative discipline and not always about reapplying the same
old patterns others have used before you. It's about craftsmanship and about
learning the trade; about recognising those patterns and seeing new
opportunity.

More to the point, my limitation isn't the speed at which I type things into
my computer. The limitation is my brain not thinking fast enough.

~~~
Xcelerate
For me, it's not that handwriting is a bottleneck in getting my work done;
it's that it's psychologically annoying.

For instance, I also get severely annoyed sitting at red lights or driving
behind someone going 10 mph under the speed limit (I joke with people that the
only thing that ever makes me angry is having a green light turn red right
before I get to it). Is it really going to make that much of a difference in
getting where I'm going? No, maybe 1-2 minutes top. But the mental anguish it
causes is quite bothersome to me, and it's the same way with writing by hand.

~~~
taeric
I can hope you are merely invoking hyperbole. Otherwise... wow.

~~~
Xcelerate
"I joke with people that..."

~~~
taeric
Fair enough. Even the speed of writing felt overstated to me. And going below
the speed limit. I mean, sure there are some days someone going slow annoys
me. There are some days I'm sure I'm that person. They are thankfully low on
the realm of crap I notice, though.

For me, writing is a bit slower than typing. However, arranging thoughts on
paper is faster than the same in a computer. Heaven help you if you want to
write something that includes basic graphs or spacial information. And I'm not
an artist.

~~~
gknoy
I don't think the speed of writing is overstated. I am not a touch typist, and
don't type fast (without typos), but it's __still__ faster and neater than
writing by hand. Nearly every time I write something, I get part-way in, and
think, "Man, this would be so much faster if I were typing ...", or "This
would be easier to read if I could insert a few lines here".

I still like writing, though.

------
ssivark
The most crucial distinction where paper wins is that writing is a _"
nonlinear"_ process whereas typing with the tools we have today is "linear".
You could use something like a mindmapping tool, but you're again constrained
to a fairly rigid format rather than giving you the ease of switching. _Eg:
you can write down a bunch of things and draw arrows between them. Or draw a
graph /sketch. Or draw a link between the thing you had on the first line and
something related that came up towards the end of the page, etc._ To me, that
means that thinking on paper is much more free than typing, and one has
available a space of a larger dimensionality, to represent one's ideas.

However fast one can type, the rigidity of typing is the biggest obstacle,
imho. I do not think speed of typing-vs-writing ought to be a significant
factor; I can think while I write, but not while I type (but that may be
because I've written a lot, over decades, as a student growing up in India --
and nowhere near as much typing).

I've tried typing(laptop, phone, tablet), writing on a convertible tablet
(Lenovo X230T and Xournal/linux) and paper is still the most usable, by far.
Once I have something worked out on paper, I transfer the notes to the
computer for storage -- either typed-up using markdown/Pandoc (since I use a
lot of LaTeX math) or handwritten. Of late, I also occasionally use Google
Keep for jotting down small things.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
> _I can think while I write, but not while I type_ //

To me handwriting is more rigid in that one can't rearrange thoughts without
drawing big arrows and having lots of crossings out. But then I only type and
don't hand-write so perhaps I've lost track of what I'm missing out on.

Do you touch type? I don't by the strictest definition but I don't look at the
keyboard and can have a conversation whilst typing - I'm not even sure any
more if I can hand-write and think on an alternate topic, but I can type as I
internally oralise thoughts without having to consider the physical movement.
I'm sure this is true for most people who can type without looking.

Whenever I'm thinking about something with visual creative elements or
anything with maths/equations then I'll use pencil and paper but as my working
life has moved away from that, except in doing pure sketches without text,
then it's quite rare for me to sit down with a pad.

I've just finished doing a python course and it's the first time I've listened
to lectures and not used pad & pencil for note taking, instead just using
PyCharm and a python console for "notes" and "doodles".

~~~
niels_olson
I did a survey of my classmates' study habits in medical school. Two of the
habits most strongly associated with good performance were taking hand-written
notes and reviewing them. The worst habit was typing in class. I heard Clay
Shirky has even banned screens in his lectures because he found a "second hand
smoking" effect: the person _next to_ the person with the laptop had poorer
performance.

I think a major part of handwritten notes is that it does force you to select
what you're actually going to write down, and that is an inherently synthetic
activity. Synthetic activities lead to more effective memory formation.

------
fsloth
A quote from the article: "...a paper published in April in the journal
Psychological Science... claim that note-taking with a pen, rather than a
laptop, gives students a better grasp of the subject."

I find it odd that when some praise handwriting as a great mental tool, others
obviously consider this as a some sort of ... ailment?

I assure you, handwriting is not a symptom of slow typing speed, and it does
not need to be remedied by typing faster.

With Vim I can touch type quite fast enough. But the typing speed is useless
unless I can understand what I am supposed to write.

Writing on paper improves my thinking to a point where I'm obviously partially
incapacitated when implementing algorithms if I don't have a pen and paper at
hand. And this is no exaggeration, I've tried in the past to go long periods
without paper.

There is a threshold in algorithmic complexity after which I cannot hold all
the variables in my head that I need to work out the solution.

The paper and pen feels like giving me 3x amount the working memory and
increased reasoning skills.

Maybe the act of handwriting stimulates more areas of the brain, thus creating
more associations along the way?

~~~
ObviousScience
I type rather quickly (fast enough that I can type faster than I can compose),
but still prefer pen and paper when reasoning.

It's because the pen and paper mixes diagramming, text, and non-linear note
taking in a completely different way.

There's just no good typing analog to drawing a box around something, and then
an arrow to another boxed item with some notes next to the line about the
relationship. There's no good typing analog to writing notes off to the side,
and then notes on those notes, and arrows between them. (There are okay mouse
analogs, but constantly shifting my hands from keyboard to mouse is fairly
annoying; much more so than just writing.)

It's not that I can get a computer to do those things with various editors,
but rather, that typing in the instructions to do them is fundamentally
mentally different than actually doing the motions of the boxes and arrows by
hand. (My pet theory is that my brain is using information about the tactile
movements to store relationship information in a way that it doesn't
understand for digital documents, but I am not a psychologist.)

This difference has nothing to do with typing speed, but rather, the nature of
the input device you're using.

------
gdilla
Funny, just got an email from my 4y/o's montessori school explaining why they
start with cursive!

"It is commonly asked why children learn cursive writing instead of print in
Montessori classrooms. From a practical point of view, it is thought that very
young children's scribbles and early drawings are flowing and circular, more
like cursive writing; making it more natural to learn first. At the Casa
level, children love to repeat things making it a good time to practice
penmanship. Given the distinct shape of each cursive letter, there is less
confusion and less tendency to reverse letters such as b, d, p, and q. In
printing there can be a tendency to mix upper and lower case letters together
(e.g. CaNada,) which does not usually happen with cursive letters. Cursive
also seems to be a more efficient way of writing since the letters are joined
together.

Another reason stems from the fact that in Montessori schools children write
before they read. In traditional schools, children in the first years of
school are learning to read and write simultaneously and can be confused if
they are learning to write in cursive and read in print. In Montessori, when
the child is three and four years old, he is learning how to 'write'. He
learns the sounds the letters make, learns to recognize them and learns how to
form them. Once he knows the sounds, he can put sounds together to write words
with the Movable Alphabet (cut out cursive letters that can be moved about
freely and combined to make words) and eventually, with pencil and paper. For
children who come to school knowing the alphabet names associated to print
letters, it helps that the cursive letters look different when they learn the
sounds of the letters. As a further step, children learn to read. When this
happens they read print letters. Once children know the cursive letters, they
are usually able to easily recognize the printed letters. So, they have the
advantage over children who have learned to recognize print first and do not
necessarily recognize cursive letters."

------
Xcelerate
I can't stand writing. It's slow and it's messy, and I can't read a lot of
other people's handwriting. I write about 30 words per minute and I type 167
wpm. Perhaps there are some cognitive benefits but I'm willing to give them up
in exchange for the ease of getting my thoughts down quickly.

The only case that I still prefer handwriting is doing math. It's much easier
for me to write out equations and "explore" things with pencil and paper over
using a program. That said, I normally find that having something like
Mathematica or a Julia notebook open in addition to pencil/paper is the best
combination. One tool for drafting and thinking, and another tool for testing
my ideas out.

~~~
ohquu
What are you typing at 167 wpm? I played on typeracer.com and topped out
around 130 wpm.

~~~
Xcelerate
10fastfingers.com. I was pretty proud of that run because I was 4/120,000 (I
normally average about 142 wpm though). I think my Typeracer record is like
150-155 wpm but I don't play that as often.

~~~
MichaelCrawford
Just now I tried typeracer, the best I could get was 61 wpm.

However I am very tired, lying on my back in bed with my legs cross and my
laptop resting on my stomach, propped against one leg.

I do know for sure I can type a lot faster when I am just thinking about what
to type, than when I am transcribing someone else's text.

------
KaiserPro
Handwriting is only good if you can actually read your own handwriting.

My handwriting is shit. Terrible. Infact it is so bad I almost failed school.

At the age of 5 I was told by various authority figures that I was thick
because I couldn't write. I vividly remember being told that some people have
dyslexia, and that why they can't write, however I'm just slow, and that I'll
have to just try harder.

Fortunately my mother decided that this was bollocks and forced the school to
actually try. All through first, middle and high school my handwriting held me
back. It is exceeding tedious to have all the correct answers but not be able
to express them in a written format, the only format that gets you marks. When
I was choosing my GCSEs at the age of 14, I had to weight up my potential
career choices for someone who appears illiterate, and had a very high chance
of leaving school at 16 with no qualifications. (the standard thing to do in
my situation is to only do maths, a single science and English).

Fortunately my school was progressive and decided to try giving me an apple
eMate
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMate_300](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMate_300)).
This literally changed my life.

It was the beginning of me realising that perhaps I wasn't a failure, and that
I might be able to actually achieve something other than living in the family
home.

I have a house, a wife, child and a first class degree. All of which would not
have been possible without typing.

So the next time someone says that typing is inferior to hand writing, and
that its very simple to write at the speed of thought, have some empathy for
the legions of people that cannot write for shit.

~~~
duncanawoods
Out of curiosity, why do you think your handwriting is so bad? Motor skills or
something cognitive? E.g. can you draw, solder, sculpt?

Do you believe its a trade-off with a different type of skill that you have as
a particular strength?

Mine tends to vary. Occasionally its beautiful, mostly its average and
sometimes its scrawl no matter the effort. I'm not sure about the mechanism
behind the difference.

~~~
KaiserPro
My fine motor skills are "unrefined" shall we say. My drawing is equally
rubbish, soldering is good though (surface mount and everything!)

the label that was finally attached was dysgraphia. However any skill that I
learned after the age of about 16 is largely unaffected. I learnt drumming
from 16, and fencing at 19, and there is no problem there, however tennis I
fail horribly at, lacrosse I'm ok at.

I have a journal that I draw in, however its a real effort to write legibly.
Its terribly frustrating to write long words so I sort of scribble the
intermediate letters.

------
rdtsc
> The group that learned to write letters by hand were better at recognising
> them than the group that learned to type them on a computer.

I have noticed for the physical act of writing with a pen on paper concepts
and diagrams helps me internalize and learn them more. There is some kind of
an improved feedback mechanism of sorts. Than, say if I do it in an editor,
mind mapping software, or some kind of diagram creating app.

When I program and design I always think with paper and pen (or whiteboard if
in a group). A lot of it is not really "writing or typing" as in actaully
writing code, but mostly it is scribbling blocks, arrows, labels. Maybe an API
description.

For price + "user experience" ( here = responsiveness, latency ). Nothing
compares to pen, paper or whiteboard and marker.

------
nathanb
I hate it that there's such a large dichotomy between typing and handwriting.

I hand-write stuff all the time. Not because I'm a doddering fossil or because
I'm a luddite or anything like that...I find that hand-writing notes from
class helps me remember them better, and hand-writing letters and cards gives
a much more personal touch.

But then I have all these sheafs of dead trees that I have to deal with. I
need to make sure I have my notebook if I think I'm going to take notes. And
afterwards, if I think "I took a class...maybe three months ago? Four? How far
back in this notebook was that? Is this even in the same notebook?" Nothing is
searchable.

I've looked into Evernote, modnotebook, and a few other solutions (including a
fancy smartpen-and-paper combo that's supposed to read and digitize my
writing), none of which actually work for me. Sometimes it's just that my
tiny, illegible scribblings are incomprehensible to OCR software, and
sometimes it's that the "solution" involves changing my workflow in a way that
makes it not work for me anymore.

Microsoft have tried to solve this problem a few times (Windows for Pen
Computing, anybody? OneNote?). Others have taken a stab at it too. I'm not at
all close to the right answer myself; I only know that everything I've seen so
far has not been it.

I bet this is one of those problems that, if you could solve it in the right
way, you would legitimately change the world.

~~~
grimman
One of the best things I did personally was to overhaul my shitty handwriting
into something I'm actually happy with, and isn't just "how things panned
out".

I'm saying this because doing such a thing, in your case, could very well turn
out to work towards making your handwriting tech compatible as well, thus
eliminating that hurdle. Win-win, really.

 _Edit: As a further advantage, I actively think of the way I write and
incrementally improve upon certain letters for efficiency and legibility.
Pardon me for tooting my horn so vigorously. XD_

~~~
godDLL
Could you please post an example of your handwriting?

~~~
grimman
Sure, here's a small sample:
[https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19268997/20141218_013221...](https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19268997/20141218_013221.jpg)

~~~
nathanb
I find all caps / block letters slower to write and harder to read. What made
you decide to go with that approach?

~~~
grimman
I think the term is small caps. :) In either case, I went for it when I was
15-16, so it's more than half a lifetime ago. The underlying reason was simply
that my handwriting was absolutely terrible, and if notes were left for too
long, even I couldn't decipher them.

So... I saw a problem, and I fixed it. ;)

------
japhyr
I definitely think more freely with pen and paper than when I'm sitting at a
keyboard. I have no idea if this is innate, or because I grew up in the 70's
and 80's and learned to write by hand. I do feel fortunate to have learned to
write by hand at an early age, but also to feel totally at home in front of a
keyboard.

I'm just about to finish writing my first book, and it's been really
interesting to see which mode I use the most. I'd love to be able to write my
initial draft at the keyboard, because it would make my work a lot easier. But
often times I need to put my computer aside, take a stack of blank paper, and
write out my initial draft by hand. I kept a journal for many years, including
the year I spent living on a bicycle. I slept in a tent every night, and wrote
in a journal by headlamp or candlelight every night for a year. I don't know
if that's what cemented my dependence on writing by hand to express my
thoughts clearly, or if it's human nature to think more clearly when writing
by hand.

The same holds true for revising and editing. I do my best revision work by
printing out a copy of what I'm working on, and marking it up with a pen and
then entering those revisions. I can't edit well working on a screen.

This article was really interesting to me because I have a son who'll be four
soon. I'd been assuming that I need to write by hand because that's how I
learned to put my thoughts into writing. This article makes me want to teach
him handwriting so he'll be able to choose between the two modes as well.

------
aluhut
As a lefty who was forced to write with my right hand because of some
superstitions, I won't look back. Never. I will always prefer the key before
the pen.

Using a pen to write caused a trauma I tried to turn into something useful by
learning to write with my left hand. It ended up nice. I have two different
styles now but I'll never be as fast as with my right hand because there are
not enough chances to train it in real life (and no, I'll never fill sheets of
paper with pointless words just for the sake of it again!).

I think (and hope) we'll pass the point where we'll have to write at all and I
see the touch screen example not really as a development. I haven't seen
anybody use that feature. Most will just pop up the keyboard and type using
their trained routine that is so much faster. And everybody can read it...The
possibility to write on a touch pad is a salute to pen & paper. Signing is the
only really advantage we get from it and that can be solved also. I think the
future is in talk (how about eye tracking?) and further on in brain
interfaces. Moving a pen will of course still be there then. Like people
riding horses today. Maybe my semi-readable writing style will become art
then...

------
kruczek
> Operating a keyboard is not the same at all: all you have to do is press the
> right key.

Well, that's quite a biased notion. I could as well just say that operating a
pen is just pressing it against the paper, while using a keyboard means a lot
more: proper alignment of fingers on the home row, learning which finger
should be used for which keys, etc.

~~~
stinos
True, but proper cursive writing requires much finer motor skills then hitting
keys on your a typical keyboard.

Btw a couple of years ago I noticed I couldn't properly write cursive anymore.
Quite a terrifying experience really, finding out a skill I pretty much
mastered was now fading away. Due to the rise of the keyboard and a job which
made me usually only write diagrams and capitals. So I devoted myself to
learning it again and after a couple of weeks I was back at the same level I
was in engineering school. Now I really don't care if a pen is mightier than a
keyboard, or faster, or better in any way (if it even is). It's just that I
consider it another skill, just like typing, or just woodworking, whatnot, and
trying to master a skill is what some humans instinctively do.

------
adwf
I've got two points to consider with this:

1) On a proper keyboard, I'm faster typing than writing. But on a "soft"
keyboard like a tablet/phone (which I'm more likely to have with me), I'm much
slower. This is probably due to a combination of inherent response times in
the screen, and some increased degree of lag between keystrokes to aid touch
detection.

2) When writing, I can easily jot down things like rough graphs to accompany
data. Or rough layouts of a webpage to accompany the copy. I can quickly
circle a block of text and draw an arrow to another block with a note about
why they are linked. Whilst typing is faster for block text, I have yet to
find an app that can even come remotely close to the ease of pen and paper for
these quick sketches.

EXTRA: Not to mention the ease with which you can pass a sheet of paper to a
colleague for them to read, markup edits, etc...

EXTRA 2: Plus it all works during a power cut ;)

~~~
sumo
I actually research this kind of thing a lot, Pen and paper is surely great,
and passing it physically, and being offline are certainly its benefits.

[https://collusionapp.com/](https://collusionapp.com/) tries to solve the
quick sketches and the sharing, which is the winnable battle, the fact that
pen and paper is tangible can be won with tablets, but my company tried that,
we made a pen and I thought it was good, but it didn't really stick. That
might have been for a variety of confusing reasons though.

One thing though is that we are definitely getting closer, and I can at least
attest that both hand writing and typing have their place, and the digital and
real life hand writing also have their own special places.

------
Htsthbjig
I use handwriting a lot, on tablets.

Handwriting lets you express in an artistic way, in some ways it is like
voice, as it let's you use nuances.

We use mindmaps a lot, and graphs and drawings, storyboards. They are very
powerful tools for communicating with other humans.

Text alone is so rigid, rational, absent of emotions.

(normal)Keyboards are very slow, if what you want is velocity, learn
stenography.

------
dnquark
Phasing out cursive in favor of typing reflects an unfortunate reality in
which the ability to bang out TPS reports is more important than writing a
nice card to Grandma. But while I spend most waking hours at the keyboard, any
creative process that involves translating thoughts into symbols is
unsatisfying to me if keyboard is my _only_ input device.

I am excited about the shift to mobile computing partly because it forces us
to come up with input paradigms that are more appropriate to the digital
medium. My pipe dream is for inking on phones and tables to become ubiquitous.
Between Samsung and Microsoft hardware, we are slowly inching in that
direction. Now if I could only get off my ass and port Xournal to Android (I
find myself living in a bizarro world where I fire up Linux mostly to take
handwritten notes.)

------
normloman
What a false dichotomy. Nobody's saying we should stop teaching kids to write.
We're just not teaching them cursive. If writing by hand helps kids learn to
read, they will still receive these benefits as they learn to write in print.

Does anyone know of a school that doesn't teach print anymore?

~~~
ernesth
Finland has chosen to not teach handwriting anymore, teaching typing instead.
[http://thelearnersway.net/ideas/2014/12/12/handwriting-vs-
ty...](http://thelearnersway.net/ideas/2014/12/12/handwriting-vs-typing-
reflecting-on-finlands-changing-policy-on-cursive-writing)

It is not just cursive versus block letters (which is not very important) but
really should handwriting still be taught.

~~~
normloman
But in the first line:

"Finland recently made the news for its decision to shift away from a focus on
handwriting. Beginning in 2016 students will not be required to learn cursive
handwriting and instead will be taught typing skills."

So again, this is a school system ditching cursive. Not handwriting.

I disagree that cursive vs block letters is not important. In the past schools
have taught both. But as typing replaces writing for long texts, cursive has
become obsolete. Yet I still find many uses for block lettering. Let's teach
block, and ditch cursive for typing instruction.

------
UhUhUhUh
Typing just adds another level to writing. For me it's like a check function
that spots flow inconsistencies or brings up better choices of words, whereas
the handwriting feels "organic". There is a more archaic, immediate, sensual
sensori-motor connection between the ideas and the output. That's the type of
connection that cursive consolidates (which is why I think it's priceless to
teach kids cursive vs. script). Having learned to type on a typewriter (!) I
see a huge difference in the way ideas flow due to the way word-processors
have evolved. Maybe speed has something to do with this but I'm not sure.
Using both definitely enriches writing.

------
stefanix
This article is full of bogus arguments about the limitations and rigid nature
of word processors. Nobody stops you from using Inkscape, iPython Notebooks,
or some other app for your scripts and get creative with your notes.

Certainly handwriting notes helps memorization but so does any other active
participation. Personally I found coding little models and simulations about
the subject matter far superior to handwriting notes. Maybe latter is not
always compatible with the pace of the curriculum but this may only suggest
the curriculum is designed for students handwriting along.

------
kondro
I personally find the act of handwriting something helps me recall it later. I
barely even read-back my handwritten notes because they become irrelevant
almost the moment I write them down.

~~~
MichaelCrawford
When I was in school I found that I rarely read my notes after class, not even
when studying for exams. However the act of writing notes helps me follow
lectures.

------
myg204
Haven't heard anyone mention taking notes on a voice recorder. I have never
done it, but wonder if this is efficient or not.

As for pen vs keyboard, I'm definitely for the pen, specially when thinking.
On a small page, I can start with words, switch to a diagram, putting few
arrows here and there linking parts , put a formula easily, it's basically too
hard to do that much on a computer (as quickly).

Although, after scribbling things, I usually put a clean version on file
somewhere.

------
leni536
One is not replaceable with the other. For typing out pure English text typing
could be faster. However for writing equations even with the maddest LaTeX
skills you are far behind from handwriting. Also it's quite impossible for me
to replace pen and throwaway papers for thinking (I know, poor forests) with
anything computer related. Even for consulting with my supervisor a blackboard
and handwriting is essential.

------
cafard
I learned cursive many years ago, and Handwriting was a reliable C- (or maybe
D) for me during most of the primary grades. I can write a legible hand now,
but find that I use cursive for Christmas cards and notes of condolence. I do
take notes with pen and notebook, but generally not in cursive. If a genie
showed up offering only one of clearer cursive or better typing, I'd choose
the latter.

~~~
KateGladstone
An alternative to genies:
[http://www.HandwritingThatWorks.com](http://www.HandwritingThatWorks.com)

------
wallflower
If you want to challenge yourself, I highly recommend learning visual note
taking. The goal is not to do it at a level where you can show off - but to
learn how to visually capture the themes and some details of what is being
said.

[http://www.danroam.com/the-back-of-the-napkin/](http://www.danroam.com/the-
back-of-the-napkin/)

------
tboyd47
> “cursive” writing – in which the pen is not raised between each character –
> has been dropped from the Common Core Curriculum Standards, shared by all
> states. Since 2013 American children have been required to learn how to use
> a keyboard and write in print.

I'm sorry. This is so ludicrous. If you can't write legibly unless you're
using a computer, how can you be called literate?

And don't come back and say, "it's perfectly fine for them to use print." I
attended public school myself, learned to write cursive in the 3rd grade, and
never used it again. I thought my natural printing style was good enough, to
the point where, to this day, I still sign my name in the jagged, chopped-up,
pseudo-cursive printing style that I invented in 4th grade, and only I can
read.

Now, I'm a person who loves to listen to classes and take notes with a pen.
About 6 months ago, I looked at the piles of jumbled-up notebooks in my closet
and was horrified at the chicken scratch on it. I could barely make sense of
it. I might as well have not even been taking notes. So I decided to try
cursive again. Now, I refuse to print anything unless I have to. Cursive is so
much easier, so much faster, so much more legible, so much neater. I simply
can't believe I didn't use it for 20 years of my life. People always tell me
how good my handwriting is now.

Maybe some people came out of grade school with a neater printing style than I
did, but I really, really doubt they can keep that neatness while writing as
quickly as they WOULD be if they were using cursive. I would really like to
know what the standards people were thinking when they made this decision.

~~~
viewer5
> And don't come back and say, "it's perfectly fine for them to use print."

I'm going to do exactly that. You having garbage print handwriting and pretty
cursive hardly means that everyone is the same way. With the lack of cursive
practice that most people get, you're much more likely to find someone with
legibile printed handwriting than legible cursive.

> If you can't write legibly unless you're using a computer, how can you be
> called literate?

How can you even say this, and then go on to say "About 6 months ago, I looked
at the piles of jumbled-up notebooks in my closet and was horrified at the
chicken scratch on it. I could barely make sense of it. I might as well have
not even been taking notes." ?

~~~
tboyd47
I can say that because I don't consider myself to have truly been literate
until 6 months ago, when I started using cursive. If I had written a letter to
someone the way I usually wrote, they wouldn't have been able to read it if
they tried. And I considered my own writing back then to be pretty okay,
because I made it all the way through high school and college with it. Why all
my teachers allowed me to write like that is a mystery to me.

I'm able to say this stuff because I spent about 20 years of my life not using
cursive at all, filling whole notebooks with print, then suddenly using it and
filling notebooks with cursive. So the difference is very clear to me.

Edit: And plus, you missed the whole second part of my comment where I said
that even if they can print neatly, they certainly can't do it quickly, so
it's still not as good as cursive in that regard.

~~~
Someone1234
Your definition of literacy and the popular view are dissimilar. The common
definition is just "the ability to read and write." Nothing more, nothing
less.

I looked for a definition which contained the term "cursive" and was unable to
find one.

~~~
tboyd47
That's true, and thanks for pointing that out. I wasn't saying that we should
draft a law to redefine literacy. I was only trying to make a point, which
was: if I can write, but no one can read what I write except for me, then have
I really achieved the goals of learning how to write?

------
Jonovono
Some things I wish:

\- I could write on paper and have that sent to a document on the computer as
if it was typed out. Something like those digital pens do, but actually ocr
the text.

\- To learn Stenography ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpv-Qb-
dB6g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpv-Qb-dB6g))

~~~
gumby
I have a livescribe 3 which does what you ask -- OCRs the handwriting. It's
OK. The pen firmware is fantastic but the live scribe client software is
painful. I hear the pen firmware was done by someone else. I carry it with me
always. Despite the OCR capability, its main value is that my paper notebook
is backed up.

And yes, I find typing effortless (I rarely touch the mouse/touchpad) but
still, using a pen to take down notes or for musing is a crucial skill I use
every day, and could not substitute the keyboard for.

------
bane
Depends on the keyboard?

Screen-input devices like phones and tablets really are lousy keyboards. I get
unbelievably better work done with my Note 3 and Shield Tablet then by poking
away at a fussy keyboard.

But for sitting at my desk or on my laptop, the keyboard is far superior for
most things. So it depends.

------
olefoo
I'm kind of surprised that the popularity of tablets hasn't enabled a
resurgence of calligraphy. I mean tablets are ideal for practicing
calligraphy. You draw your shapes and if they aren't good, don't have rhythm
and don't sing; erase and start over.

~~~
Pamar
Except that on most tablets and with most "styli" your penmanship does not
really work. Most calligraphy effects depend on two elements: how much
pressure you apply, and how fast you move on paper (this is especially true
for Eastern calligraphy, but I suppose it holds for western styles, too)...
pressure requires an expensive stylus, and a tablet that can interact with it
(usually by Bluetooth) so it requires quite an investment (a cheap fountain
pen will cost you 1/20th of it probably, a good roller gel pen would cost even
less).

About the speed, I suppose it's less of a problem than pressure, but low-cost
tablets would probably struggle with that, too.

------
fsiefken
Yes, partly for this reason I switch to a mixture of voice, drawings and
cursive for my personal diary. I also intend to use a variant of quickscript
crossed with the phonetic alfabet and shorthand techniques for speed and semi-
encryption (currently using the greek alphabet)

------
eveningcoffee
What? Are you saying that writing by hand is not taught in US any more?

Are you telling me that American children are cut off from a most basic and
easily affordable ability to express their thoughts where only things
necessary are pen and paper?

Do I miss something?

------
fsloth
Related anecdote: Neil Gaiman writes his stories with a fountain pen (well, at
least during the period 1994 - 2012):

[http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-18071830](http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-18071830)

~~~
otoburb
He still does[1].

[1]
[https://twitter.com/neilhimself/status/545236792908451840](https://twitter.com/neilhimself/status/545236792908451840)

------
anw
> In an editorial published on 4 September 2013, the Los Angeles Times hailed
> a step forward. “States and schools shouldn’t cling to cursive based on the
> romantic idea that it’s a tradition, an art form or a basic skill whose
> disappearance would be a cultural tragedy. Of course, everyone needs to be
> able to write without computers, but longhand printing generally works fine
> […] Print is clearer and easier to read than script. For many, it’s easier
> to write and just about as fast.”

Not all hand writing is meant to just express a point. Some hand writing is
also—by itself—an art form. I can easily draw a parallel between penmanship
skills and something such as creative writing. An easy to write, and fast way
of writing is akin to "Jon kills Joe. Jon marries Susan. The end." Easily
written, fast, to the point. And entirely worthless unless you only want to
convey the absolute minimum. A fluid style in writing can display nuances,
such as which side the gradient leans, what letters have a flourish, or how
round the letters are (and which ones aren't).

As a programmer, I need to physically draw and write out how an application
and its input/output will all come together. Even something stupid such as a
simple box with multiple arrows coming in and out of it can have a big
meaning. On paper, it looks like a few lines. But it represents what I
actually am thinking about; and putting the pen to paper helps create an
extension of my own thoughts, and allows me to move on in my head to further
down the problem.

I have tried using text files to keep track of this information, but it can
not contain the same meaning for me. Lines of text can change, and the visual
representation is foreign, compared to something like my own hand writing and
drawings. Even tablets aren't the same. The feeling of ink spilling out has an
ephemeral high that is given, where a finger or touch-pen to a tablet just
doesn't produce the same kind of feeling or relationship.

It may be an upbringing thing, though. I had been taught in a private school
that pushed writing and penmanship from a young age. Any rough drafts had to
be hand-written, and it wasn't until the final draft that we were allowed to
type. Math problems as well had to be worked out by hand on paper, and
calculators were not allowed until we reached pre-calc and geometry. I can see
the point of view from someone coming up in a computer-only schooling, and how
they might be more comfortable in using a keyboard to express their thoughts,
though.

When learning a foreign language, I've found actually writing the words and
characters out have a tremendous impact in helping me remember them later on.
This is especially true for something like Japanese or Chinese, where I
retrace which radical starts the character, and the order in which they go.
For someone native to these languages, it may not be as big a deal due to the
daily usage. However, it also seems some youths in Asia are forgetting the
actual writing of some kanji/hanzi due the convenience of computers[1]. So now
we can recognize a kanji and know its meaning, but knowing the kanji and being
able to write it without aid may be more difficult.

[1] [http://www.tofugu.com/2010/08/27/kanji-amnesia-and-why-
its-o...](http://www.tofugu.com/2010/08/27/kanji-amnesia-and-why-its-okay-to-
forget-kanji/)

------
MichaelCrawford
I think it is. Scientists all carry around laboratory notebooks that they
write in by hand.

While I can type faster than I can write, if I observe something that I want
to record for later consideration, it's a lot quicker for me to whip out my
notebook and a pen, than to whip out my computer, log in, launch a text editor
then save my document.

~~~
cwe
Agreed. There's just something about the pen and paper right there, ready to
go, always. Even on a phone, with the app open, you'll probably have to unlock
the screen first, and tap or something to bring up the keyboard and start
typing.

~~~
w1ntermute
This assumes that you actually have a pen and paper with you at all times. I
don't know about you, but there are a lot of times when I don't. Also, the
amount of time it takes to unlock my phone's screen, open Evernote, and create
a new note is actually less than that required to open my bag (if I have it
with me), take out a notebook, open another compartment, take out a pen, close
both compartments, open the notebook, uncap the pen, and start writing.

~~~
MichaelCrawford
While I work as a programmer, my degree is in Physics.

I always have a notebook. I carry a small one in my back-left pocket, and take
care always to have a pen.

I have a regular-sized notebook that I carry in my computer bag, that has
graph paper rather than just lines for text, however as you say I don't have
it with me.

With scientific notebooks, what's important is not to be neat, but to write it
down so it's not forgotten.

At one time, for inventors, it was crucial to record the date upon which one
invented something, however the US patent law was revised a few years ago so
that we have "first to file" rather than "first to invent".

I even do stuff like take notes during TV commercials, if I see a product
advertised that I might like to buy.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
> _take notes during TV commercials, if I see a product advertised that I
> might like to buy_ //

Perhaps I'm an aberration here but I've never seen a commercial and thought
"oh, I'll buy that". I've often seen them and thought "that's cool" or even "I
wonder how that works". It's clearly a conscious decision to consider buying
things simply because they bought an ad slot in a show you watch, I find that
quite strange.

[Senior Soft. Eng. in USA, guess you can afford anything that takes your
fancy.]

Is it a common thing to do that with adverts?

On a side note you should still be recording when you "invented" something. If
you were using it prior to the priority date of a patent application then you
can't be prevented from continuing to use it; prior use is an absolute defence
in patent infringement proceedings [ordinarily in patent law, you'd want to
check this one in USC]. If you publicised it, even within a narrow definition
of "public" then it can obviate the patent too; using a patent in public is
sometimes enough for it to be considered citable against teh novelty of the
later application.

~~~
MichaelCrawford
I'm not going to write down notes about how I should take up smoking, if
that's what you're asking, nor do I think I'll be lucky in love as a result of
driving a fast, red car.

There are lots of ads for things I really do find useful. Consider the
controversial superbowl ad for the machine that makes homemade carbonated
soda. Sodastream? It's controversial because it's manufactured in an Israeli
settlement in the West Bank, however the factory employs many Palestinians.

I like to drink soda, so that's something I would conceivably buy based on the
ad.

It wasn't just brand advertising, nor image advertising, but actually
demonstrated how one actually uses the machine.

------
icantthinkofone
On the Tonight Show with Jay Leno, years ago, they had a contest between a ham
radio operator using Morse code and a 20-something texting to his friend.
Morse code was faster.

Therefore, I propose we all exchange texting for Morse code.

