
Snowden accuses U.S. of industrial espionage - colinprince
http://gigaom.com/2014/01/25/snowden-accuses-u-s-of-industrial-espionage/
======
SkyMarshal
He's treading on thin ice here. It's one thing to whistleblow the NSA
illegally/unconstitutionally spying on Americans in America, but he risks
losing popular support when he goes on to expose the NSA spying on foreigners
overseas.

I think a majority of US citizens recognize that's the NSA's job, and are
aware the same is being done to the US (esp by China), and hence are more
ambivalent, if not supportive, of that role, even if it annoys our allies.

I don't know what Snowden thinks he can gain from this, especially now that
Russia has extended his stay indefinitely. I would hate for the tide of public
opinion to turn decisively against him for something like this. Stick to
exposing only illegal intelligence activities on US soil against US citizens,
imho.

~~~
coldtea
>* He's treading on thin ice here. It's one thing to whistleblow the NSA
illegally/unconstitutionally spying on Americans in America, but he risks
losing popular support when he goes on to expose the NSA spying on foreigners
overseas. I think a majority of US citizens recognize that's the NSA's job*

If they recognize its doing industrial espionage and accept it, that's
disgusting. Until now it was only "we just do it for the bad guys", not "to
fuck France and Sweden businesses over".

> _and are aware the same is being done to the US (esp by China), and hence
> are more ambivalent, if not supportive, of that role, even if it annoys our
> allies._

The "we're just as much a victim" oft repeated line is BS.

For one, it's not only China. It's EU and other "allies" they're taking
advantage of. Second, China mostly BUILDS stuff for US companies. Doesn't
compete directly with them in most tech areas (Lenovo was bought from IBM,
wasn't created based on stolen IP).

And no, France or Germany or even Russia don't have 1/10 the spying resources
to spy on the US, nor the diplomatic and economic might to take advantage of
such spying even if they could do it. Much less smaller countries. Anyone who
thinks Italy or Portugal or Hungary etc have the same kind of access to
industrial espionage on the US (or would do it, if they could, despite the 100
pound gorilla being ready to pound on them if they were caught) is delluded.

Heck, there are European countries that in past decades had government policy
being dictated by the US -- or even had dictatorships established.

~~~
tptacek
France is actively and aggressively involved in industrial espionage against
US companies. Be careful any time you try to draw a moral line between EU
countries and the US. It's not popular to acknowledge it, but we're far, far
more alike than different.

~~~
coldtea
> _France is actively and aggressively involved in industrial espionage
> against US companies._

Yeah, I already covered that: with 1/10 the resources to take advantage of it.
And 1/100 the scale.

What's France and the US's GDP again? How many French companies compete in the
same sector and at the same level as US multinationals? How much political
pressure can France assert to a third country to take advantage of it for its
own interests compared to the US?

There are only few French companies playing in the big leagues. And France is
an old colonial power -- with some illusions of grandeur still and active
secret agencies. It's not a representative of most European countries --
there's tens of European and EU countries with less than half the resources of
France.

~~~
doe88
> And France is an old colonial power -- with some illusions of grandeur still
> and active secret agencies.

 _Old colonial power_ what a laugh, are you waking-up from the 60'? _with some
illusions of grandeur_ when all anglo-saxons medias report how much French are
_depressed_ and always _pessimists_. Anyway, I always like a bit of French
bashing based on caricatures, always very accurate...

~~~
coldtea
> _Old colonial power what a laugh, are you waking-up from the 60 '?_

Not sure what you mean. France has had extended colonies up until the sixties,
so it's very much one of the "old colonial powers". Is there another way to
put it?

Fact is, they still like to meddle worldwide, and they still have claims on
places that they have no place to be except by their colonial past:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_departments_and_territ...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_departments_and_territories_of_France#Overseas_departments_and_regions)

Not to mention stuff like this:

[http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/inside-
france...](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/inside-frances-
secret-war-396062.html)

and the post-colonial behavior of companies such as Elf (now Total) et al.

------
stannol
The article is wrong. They already aired a short segment of the nterview and
Siemens was just used as an example by the interviewer. Snowden said something
like "The US intelligence agencies would spy on Siemens if they had
information that could be exploited by American corporations even if said
information had nothing to do with national security". At no point did he
claim that specifically Siemens was affected.

~~~
Zigurd
The example of spying on Petrobras shortly before a major oilfield auction is
already known. Is there a credible national security reason for that?

~~~
sokoloff
Ensuring ongoing access to petro fuels for the US is absolutely a credible
national security interest, IMO.

~~~
Zigurd
That was a nice couple decades of having it both ways, but now we have to
choose between taking an oil deal away from nominally friendly nations by
seeing their bids, versus having an export market for our technology
companies, who are suspected of collaborating to make that spying possible.

------
jrs235
While the NSA itself and higher ups may not be actively involved in espionage,
seeing how the agency didn't/doesn't know what its agents are doing/do... it's
very plausible that agents within the organization are spying on companies and
selling that information.

~~~
ItendToDisagree
If one of those companies is a multi-national or has a headquarters in say
Japan or Germany are the agents who sold the information to them then
'traitors'?

------
betterunix
Old news:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Examples_of_industrial...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Examples_of_industrial_espionage)

Americans were not outraged back then; is there some reason to think they will
be outraged today?

~~~
coldtea
Well, back in 50's Americans were not outraged for seggregation either. Yet
today they are.

Public opinion changes, different eras have different limits, etc.

~~~
betterunix
Except that the NSA's involvement in industrial espionage was revealed in the
90s and 00s. We are not talking about the prevailing attitude three
generations ago, we are talking about the current generation.

~~~
coldtea
Well, that was a historical example of something that completely changed over
a few decades.

You wan't fewer? Compared attitudes to seggregation in the 60s and 70s.

~~~
betterunix
I do not think you can say that the general attitude about segregation had
changed significantly until at least the 80s, when people who had grown up
without segregation had entered adulthood. Even with that change, there are
still lingering pockets of segregation _now_ , in 2014 -- two generations
after Brown v. Board of Education.

I doubt that assumptions or attitudes can be changed within a single
generation.

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ChrisAntaki
How do the beneficiaries reciprocate?

~~~
coldtea
They sponsor politicians to Washington.

------
hbbio
What does the sentence "France is generally seen as a world leader in that
regard" actually mean when the linked article does not even contain the
keyword?

~~~
CapitalistCartr
France is notorious for aggressive industrial espionage. Businessmen visiting
France routinely have their hotel rooms searched while out, their papers (and
now computers) copied, and all of it turned over to French corporations.

~~~
kawera
Sources?

~~~
CapitalistCartr
Google is full of stories to keep you reading for hours, such as
[http://m.france24.com/en/20110104-france-industrial-
espionag...](http://m.france24.com/en/20110104-france-industrial-espionage-
economy-germany-russia-china-business/) Even when I was a kid, such stories
were common enough; this isn't new.

