
Living on $5,000 a year, on purpose: Meet America's 'intentional poor' - ca98am79
http://inplainsight.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/13/20923154-living-on-5000-a-year-on-purpose-meet-americas-intentional-poor
======
fennecfoxen
> “I don’t believe in houses or mortgages. Who in their right mind would spend
> their lifetime paying for a building they never get to spend time in because
> they are always working?”

> The intentional poor are “looking for something real that goes beyond
> commodity,” said Karen Halnon, a sociology professor at Pennsylvania State
> University and author of "Consumption of Inequality."

See, the historical edition of "something real" and the mainstream reason to
pay for the house is called "your children". I don't expect many of these
people are raising any, so there you go.

~~~
codegeek
Exactly. I bought a house right after my first kid was born (second on the
way) and I would not trade it for anything else. Yes I am paying the mortgage+
taxes and what not but I know that my kids are getting the environment _we_
want as a family to grow up. Yes you can always argue that kids can be raised
in rented apartments, condos etc. but to each his own. I recently painted one
of the rooms for the kid and loved doing it. Imagine dealing with landlords
asking for permission to put a nail on the wall. Many more things like this.

tl;dr: People buy houses not because they see it as investment in terms of
money (well thats also there to an extent but besides the point in this
context), they buy it to call it their home where they have the _freedom_ to
do whatever the heck they want.

~~~
VLM
"Imagine dealing with landlords asking for permission to put a nail on the
wall."

LOL back in the real world, it never costs a penny over the security deposit.

Usually people who cry the loudest about home=freedom live in a HOA where you
need to ask the Warden's permission to plant flowers, which I always find
pretty amusing. Thank god I'm free of that landlord, although now the HOA
controls my every decision and waking moment...

In my younger years I found that you tend to get what you optimize for WRT
real estate. So if you optimize solely for location size and price, all you
get is a good location size and price. The landlord will probably be a total
jerk or insane. My bachelor pad was not the most convenient and relatively
small and somewhat expensive but the landlord was awesome and reasonable and
fast and effective. "permitted" to paint? Heck, he not only permitted it, he
paid for it. You tend to get what you optimize for.

~~~
codegeek
"back in the real world, it never costs a penny over the security deposit."

Funny you say that. I have had many landlords in the past when I was renting
and at least 2 of them were shady and tried to take a portion out of my
deposit with false claims that I did something wrong. One specific case, the
landlord claimed that renters are supposed to pay for carpet cleaning when
leaving. We had nothing of that in the contract. I pointed it out and her
response "thats the state law" and she forwarded me a PDF of the state law for
landlord/tenants. Guess what, I actually found a section in that same PDF that
clearly said that tenants are not responsible for usual wear and tear cleaning
unless agreed in the contract.

Overall, I think you are missing the point of why to own vs rent. I would
rather deal with an HOA than a scheming landlord.

~~~
VLM
"Point is: you cannot generalize."

Why? You get what you optimize for. Sometimes it doesn't work, but usually it
does. Also in the olden days a landlord might have gotten away with bait and
switch, but it seems unlikely it'll happen now.

Also given crooks, why risk more financial assets than necessary; I don't get
the desire to deal with a HOA over a landlord. I don't trust that homeless
person with $5, so I'll hand my wallet to that panhandler instead; what could
possibly go wrong?

~~~
jack-r-abbit
Somehow you have convinced yourself that everybody has to deal with an HOA
(and that all of them are nightmares). I own two houses and neither have an
HOA. When I was house shopping a couple years ago, I think maybe 1 in 5 that
we looked at had an HOA.

~~~
VLM
I don't live in a HOA either, intentionally. The ratio of free vs nonfree
housing varies greatly by geography and date of construction. In some markets
almost all SFRs are nonfree and in others almost all SFRs are free.

However, none of the above discussion about local real estate variations and
trends conflicts with or relates to the observation that those who complain
the most about landlords statistically seem to live as a subject of a HOA or
in a condo.

Also some zoning and CCR regs are almost as bad as a HOA. And some HOA are not
too bad. Most of them, on the other hand...

~~~
jack-r-abbit
Zoning regulations are going to equally effect everybody so that is kind of a
moot point in this context. Unless you live in a historic neighborhood (where
often nearly every aspect of your historic house is regulated), an HOA has no
authority on what you do in the _inside_ of your house. So when renting, you
have almost no freedom to alter any aspect of your dwelling (unless otherwise
allowed by your landlord). Owning a home with an HOA, you have complete
freedom to alter the interior any way you like and have some (varied) level of
restriction on the exterior. Owning a home without an HOA, you have complete
freedom in and out. Plus there is the issue of pets being allowed or not in
rentals. So, I don't see any conflict with a person with an HOA complaining
about landlords. Even _with_ an HOA, you are statistically more free to do
stuff than with a landlord.

------
ColinWright
Discussed at length just over 2 weeks ago:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6544012](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6544012)

However, that's now old enough that comments are closed, so if you have
anything extra to say, you'll need to say it here.

------
netcan
It's often useful to have someone exploring extremes. Philosophical extremes,
lifestyle extremes, physical, etc. For example, I think reading Ayn Rand is
useful even though I disagree with here on many points.

I think many people feel like much of our modern wealth is "wealth." Long
hours at Jobs we don't like. No free time. Dept. Constant financial worries.
Social alienation.

Hopefully they find some useful things that other people can use.

~~~
hrkristian
The article makes no mention things like health insurance and other safety
nets. What will he do when he grows too old to be autonomous?

I'm all for the idea of going back to basics, advanced stages of anything
usually comes with a lot of negative baggage, our western society included.

However, living "intentionally poor" means you're distancing yourself from
everything, you're essentially back to the Middle Ages, and your quality of
life depends solely on your genetics and luck in life. He breaks his foot, and
suddenly he has to come crawling back to the "system" he once was a slave of.
A system he no longer deserves to be a part of because he's stopped
contributing to it.

~~~
netcan
I'm not sure that living "intentionally poor" means anything in particular.
The article gives two example: a guy in a hobbit hole and a girl in a cheap NY
room. Both are using macs and making a little money online. Doesn't sound
medieval to me.

Anyway, the article isn't about a "mid sized country" deciding to live in a
hobbit hole. It's about a few individuals. They're trying to find a satisfying
way of living. This anger about not contributing to the system feels very off
to me.

------
ctdonath
$13/day. I want your suggestions on how to make it work.

Starters: $1 per meal, see
[http://abuckaplate.blogspot.com](http://abuckaplate.blogspot.com) ; creative
use of [http://Zillow.com](http://Zillow.com) or
[http://Trulia.com](http://Trulia.com) can find undeveloped building lots for
under $2000.

(Naysayers, this subthread isn't for you.)

~~~
rubidium
It's easier to do if you're willing to live without a car and health
insurance.

I keep good track of what I spend, and live pretty frugally, so here's some
info on "what's possible" (assuming a single person living in the midwest US).

I eat for ~$90 a month (oatmeal, fruit, beans and rice, peanut butter and
jelly, spaghetti, chicken once a week, ground beef once a week).

I pay:

-$200/month for rent and utilities (live in a house with 4 others guys in midwest collegetown). And it's a decent sized place with cable internet, so you could probably get cheaper (though likely not on the east or west coast).

-$30/month for cell phone plan.

-Computer was homebuilt from parts and is 4 years old.

-$200/year for clothes/toiletries.

That comes to about $11 a day.

Now, my expenses or higher because I opt to have health insurance, a car,
travel, and go out every now and then.

It's the health insurance, living in high cost-of-living places, car, going
out, and travel that makes your goal difficult.

~~~
drbawb
As far as maintaing cars on a budget goes, I feel I could offer some pointers.
Going by the "$5000" figure I guess I spent about "$2/day per car." (My yearly
maintenance costs are about $1,000 on years when I'm buying fresh rubber or
doing large jobs. Significantly less than that on years that only require
servicing consumables like brakes and fluids.)

0) Find a reliable car. This seems like a no brainer, but honestly some cars
are just _built like tanks._ This is the toughest part as you'll end up
spending more money since these cars naturally hold their resale value a bit
better.

    
    
       Find something like an older Toyota with an S engine [Camry], or perhaps a Volvo, etc.
       My rule of thumb? If you don't get search results for "[Car in question] + 300,000 miles" -- you're about to buy the wrong car!
    
       My Mustang has 300,000mi+ on the clock, my old minivan had 240,000, and it's not hard to imagine my Camry making it to 300,000mi
       if I continue to maintain it.
    

1) Find an honest mechanic that's _willing to install customer supplied
parts._ Sadly: all shops will charge [what I consider] an outrageous markup on
parts. This is usually to "subsidize" whatever warranty they offer on their
work.

    
    
       So be aware that you're effectively making a bet that the part you're buying isn't a dud. Otherwise you're going to find out
       why they charge such a ridiculous markup. (Hint: the shop won't make you wait 2 weeks while their parts supplier processes the RMA. -- 
       They swap in a brand new part in 24 hours, and hope that the RMA goes through.)
    

2) Perform certain maintenance yourself. Here's how I see it.

    
    
       * You should be able to: rotate your tires, change your own oil, change air & cabin air filters, check the levels of all other fluids.
       
       * It's nice if you can: top off & change other fluids, replace belts, change spark plugs & wires, replace a distributor cap or similar component. (Only applies to older vehicles with a cap or external ignition control module driving the ignition coils. On modern vehicles you'll have coil-on-plug fired directly from the ECU.)
       
       * You're doing _really well_ if you can: change your own brakes [pads, rotors, drums, and shoes], swap out components on the accessory belt (anything pulley driven, like your pumps, alternator, etc.), replace _any_ suspension or steering components.
    
    

Unless something goes _wrong_, nothing above really requires any specialty
tooling. Air tooling is nice, but honestly I've gotten by for years with
nothing but an electric impact wrench [for removing & installing wheels]...
everything else can be done with a good set of wrenches, a breaker bar, and a
dash of blood and tears.

(As a precaution: the last category involves some _very dangerous jobs._ --
Improper installation of brakes will at best render your vehicle immobile, at
worst it will endanger the safety of yourself and others on the road.

As for suspension: those springs support a significant amount of weight. They
are _incredibly dangerous_ if not handled properly.)

\---

To elaborate a bit on point #1 we will use a fairly recent example.

I had a timing belt installed: I purchased the components [the belt, idler
pulleys, water pump, various gaskets] myself for $90. These components have a
5-year/50,000 mi warranty on the parts themselves.

(The shop offered a 2 year / 12,000 mi. warranty for comparison.)

The labor comes to $375 because I have a mechanic that will install customer
supplied parts. Total I spent: $465 for a job that costs $600-$800 in my area.

If you want to know where the extra money comes from: let's look at the parts
I _didn't supply._

I needed a thermostat & gasket, a power steering belt, an a serpentine belt.
The thermostat and gasket were $25, the belts were $40 a piece, for a total of
$105. I could've bought my own thermostat and gasket for $12, and I could've
gotten _the same exact belts_ for $9/piece. (A savings of $75 dollars.)

At this kind of markup: my timing belt kit would've cost $200+ instead of $90,
which falls right in line with the $600-$800 estimate from other shops.

If you're used to paying for parts through a garage: you're probably paying
twice as much as you need to for parts. Finding parts is a cinch: you can
either ask your local part store [and then source the parts there, or online]
-- or you can use a parts catalog like RockAuto which has their inventory
broken down by make, model, year, and engine. When it comes to car parts: it's
worth shopping around to save money on shipping; auto parts can get quite
heavy, and it makes a huge difference if you can get them shipped from a
single warehouse.

~~~
VLM
That's a pretty good post; I'd add a small comment to:

"As a precaution: the last category involves some _very dangerous jobs._ --
Improper installation of brakes will at best render your vehicle immobile, at
worst it will endanger the safety of yourself and others on the road."

You have to evaluate yourself and your ability to follow directions closely.
Can you bake a cake and it is edible? Can you do basic sysadmin / programming
stuff from instructions? Can you build ikea type furniture without damaging
yourself or the tools or the furniture? If not, the odds of a successful brake
job are pretty low. If you can, it'll probably be OK.

What I enjoy about working on my brakes, is because I'm doing it myself I can
go as slow and methodical and detailed as possible; no boss standing over me
complaining that book labor is 2 hrs and I'm at 1.75 hrs and we're both losing
money in 15 minutes so slap it together and hope for the best. Its my life on
the line and I've got all the time in the world; I'll triple check, just
because I can.

And the money saved I can put into brand new top of the line parts, not re
manufactured or merely as good as stock. Zero labor cost means I can buy the
most expensive ridiculous "racing" "pro" level stuff and still come out ahead
of taking it into a shop. Just like a synthetic oil change at home is cheaper
than the used french fry grease or whatever it is the quickie lube place
claims is motor oil.

The biggest problem I've found is you're not doing "real" suspension work
until you crack an impact socket (been there, done that) or bend a one meter
cheater bar by putting a ten foot pipe on it. Also you have to be pretty hard
core to own a brake cylinder hone or spring compressor, some specialized stuff
is pretty expensive.

~~~
drbawb
>zero labor cost means I can buy the most ridiculous . . .

Amen! I spend $50 an oil change. Not because I take it to a shop, but because
my cars only get the best of the best.

You bet I've tried running royal purple in my Mustang for shits and giggles!

Both my camry and mustang are little eco-tuned 4 cylinders, but they purr like
kittens!

>until you crack an impact socket

I'm sure you know this, but for the benefit of others: that's actually what an
impact socket is _designed to do._ They are made out of a different type of
metal that cracks instead of shatters.

At the speed & torque these impact guns are capable of: using the right socket
is the difference between being slightly bummed that you have to buy a new
socket, and becoming legally blind in one eye.

>some specialized stuff is pretty expensive

At least around here: many autoparts stores will rent out such equipment for
fairly reasonable prices.

(Of course they usually have a "you break it you bought it" policy if they
don't offer some kind of insurance; and then you're paying full price for a
broken machine.)

(You also may need _other_ equipment to drive it; for instance I don't really
have a compressor suitable for pneumatic tooling at home.)

> I'm at 1.75 hrs and we're both losing money in 15 minutes so slap it
> together and hope for the best

My recent timing belt job is actually the first time either of my cars has
been at a shop.

I dropped it off right before close in the middle of the week and the guy
says: "and let me guess, you need it in a hurry?"

And I'm like: "of course not, take all the time you need!" (Writing this out:
it may sound a little sarcastic. In context however it wasn't, this guy's shop
is literally halfway between my home and my job, and both are in
walking/biking distance. So I was in no rush for him to finish.)

At my last computer repair job we had a similar motto: the only way we lose
money is if the customer comes back. Obviously expedience is something of a
virtue when doing repairs [or any sort of billable work]: but I hope that many
shops value doing a good job above beating the book time.

------
personlurking
I've lived poor on a little more than $5000/yr for several years now, though
it's due to living in developing nations and/or countries with hard-hit
economies.

I still want things but I fully recognize it's just a want and not a need.
Would I live 'normally' if I made more money? Well, I've come to find that
paying for experiences is more important than having status or things that
represent it.

Most of my current friends are not as poor as me but they aren't rich either.
Though, I spent all of my teens with 'rich kids', for one reason or another,
and they seemed to have no clue about how good they had/have it. If we all had
to start from scratch, I'd survive while they wouldn't.

When the basics aren't covered automatically, there's a large psychological
toll (the scarcity trap) that affects every single decision made. I'd rather
know the art of being frugal than be oblivious to it (and how much of the
world lives)...but I must say, the scarcity trap can be hell to deal with.

------
Shivetya
Living on 5000 is enough is simple enough when you start out with everything
that is expensive already in your possession.

I have seen people live frugally, none of the cases in this story are
meaningful. I am more interested in the unintentional poor, because by calling
these people intentional means its a lifestyle choice. Lifestyle choices let
you stack the deck prior to taking the choice. Its the perfect choice of vapid
selfish people.

~~~
bluedino
$50/month for a phone, plus a MBA and iPad is an easy $1500, and that's buying
used stuff.

~~~
pilom
Its not like he has to buy the MBA or the iPad every year. Also cell phones in
the US are way less than $50/month if you don't go with ATT, Verizon, Sprint,
or T-mobile. I get Unlimited everything (with no data caps) for $20/month on
Republic Wireless.

------
goshx
[off-topic] I feel like I have been experiencing many dejavu's here lately.
Doesn't HN have a detection for re-posts?

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6544012](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6544012)

~~~
sp332
The repost detection is pretty fragile and often just doesn't work. It's up to
the poster to make sure the story isn't a dup.

------
pinaceae
only rich and bored people want to be poor. this is like painting yourself
black to prove you can live under racism.

~~~
sanoli
In Brazil there's a saying: "Poor people like luxury. The ones who like
poverty are intellectuals."

~~~
oftenwrong
I would say "The ones who like poverty are not poor"

------
poulsbohemian
Joseph, OR, where the guy with the "Hobbit House" lives is a really unique
place. There are a lot of people who live on very little there - many are
artists, some are hermits, most are just plain poor as it is a difficult place
to make a living. My family ranched there for several generations and we still
spend vacation time in the area. The people that live there - and really, you
could extrapolate this to much of middle america - are living for a lifestyle,
not in pursuit of the almighty dollar. It's pretty typical in Joseph to see a
$50K pickup and $30K snowmobiles in front of a 40 year old single-wide trailer
- whatever money they have goes into their "toys." Is this existence better or
worse than the urban "keeping up with the Jones?" Depends on what you want in
life. But make no mistake about it, even someone who _chooses_ to downgrade
their wants and needs doesn't automatically have life easy. There is already
snow on the ground around Joseph and it won't warm up again until about June.
I've been snowed on there on the 4th of July. You could spend thousands just
keeping yourself from freezing to death. The Oregon department of fish and
wildlife has to deal with a lot of poachers - some because they feel entitled
to a "lifestyle" but others, it's probably pure survival. I see articles like
this as mostly propaganda, trying to position the reality in which most
americans live as a positive choice rather than the consequences of stagnate
incomes, et al. We have shanty towns, hunger, malnutrition, unclean water -
all the problems of the developing world - but they are perhaps less visible
and/or effect a smaller number of the overall population in a visible way.

------
tehwalrus
I'd love to try this sort of lifestyle, but I can't help thinking I'd be bored
out of my mind after a few weeks (without power to run a computer -
programming problems in the evening might be interesting enough.)

I once worked minimum wage at Starbucks for a couple of weeks full time (gap
between A-levels and starting uni.) I had worked there a day a week for about
a year, and I enjoyed working there for that proportion of my time, alongside
challenging-ish studies. _But_ \- when I hit the third or fourth day, the
tiredness set in. Sweeping/mopping/hoovering a large store three evenings in a
row, after being on your feet all day making coffee and smiling at people, is
seriously hard work. And don't get me started on cleaning the loos. I am
_very_ courteous to people who work in retail.

It's not quite doing odd jobs around the town, but it's certainly the order of
magnitude of work required to live this kind of lifestyle. Also, does the
$5,000 a year seriously cover a return flight to Hawaii?!

------
up_and_up
I had friends that lived like kings in Santa Cruz CA for easily less than
$500/year.

They lived for free in hidden tents/camps above UCSC, ate/made free food with
Food Not Bombs, biked everywhere around CA and generally just lived it up.

There are other ways to exist and thrive in this world outside the grind.

------
kfk
If you charge the costs of your pension (I challenge you can make even 5k when
you are 80+ years old) and health on society, sure, you can live on that
amount.

~~~
VLM
That was also my first reaction to the title, "so I see they've met my
grandmother". Prop tax on half a house and some maintenance is a couple
hundred a month, and some food, that's about it. She obtained about 4,5,6 who
knows how many times as much from pensions and from SS but she actually only
spent perhaps $5K/yr on herself. Too old to drive safely, not into consumer
electronics other than a top of the line TV and top of the line satellite
subscription (only old people watch TV anymore), loved to cook / didn't like
restaurant food / very picky about food, not into clothing fashions, what is
someone like that supposed to spend money on for themselves, anyway? Mostly
gave her money away to charities, family, etc.

------
matt__rose
Umm, this has been happening since the 60s. They called it "Going back to the
land" Anyone interested should look up The Farm in Tennessee

------
jlneder
with that much you would live like a king in Argentine.

