

Study: High-Skilled Immigrants Are Neither Better Nor Brighter Than U.S. Workers - zpk
http://techcrunch.com/2013/03/01/study-stem-immigrants-are-neither-better-nor-brighter-than-u-s-workers/

======
eshvk
Personally, I think Matloff is rather biased in most of his studies. However,
I will say this, I was on an H1B for 5 months or so of my life. I can agree
with the perception that one feels like a indentured servant. There is always
that worry in your mind's eye that one can get fired and would be kicked out
of the country. My company went through layoffs two weeks before my green card
interview and that was an insanely stressful experience because I was in the
situation where if I had gotten laid off, I would probably have to leave the
country. If I left the country, my green card application would have been
deemed abandoned which means I would have to start over. If you want real
immigration reform, make the H1B visa a portable work visa for 5 years. Of
course, this doesn't serve the owners of companies. They would rather have the
current situation that probably depresses wages but certainly leads to a
situation where the employee can be exploited by unscrupulous managers.

~~~
pmelendez
Just curious... How long did it take to get the green card once you got the
H1B visa?

~~~
jholman
IANAL.

Asking someone else is not useful to you, because there are several buckets
into which one can fall, that have different waiting times.

As I understand it, there are two questions of timing: how long will an
applicant have to wait until given an immigrant visa number, and how long will
it take to turn the immigrant visa number into a permanent residency. The
latter is, I believe, consistent across buckets but varies over time,
depending on the wheels of bureaucracy. It's a year or two, I think? The
former, however, depends on your level of training and country of birth.

The wikipedia page is pretty good, in particular a few sections:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_residence_%28United_S...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_residence_%28United_States%29#Application_process)

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_residence_%28United_S...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_residence_%28United_States%29#Immigration_eligibility_and_quotas)

In the latter, note the difference between EB-3 and EB-2, and note the bolded
footer (b).

EDIT STARTING HERE:

Oh, this helps too:

<http://www.travel.state.gov/visa/bulletin/bulletin_5885.html>

Depending on country of birth, if you have a BSc you're looking at 5-11 years
of backlog. If you have a higher degree or 5+ years of "progressive"
experience you're looking at 0 years of backlog, except 5 years for Chinese
and 9 years for Indians. If you are doing family-based immigration, some
category/nationality combinations are only just getting around to applications
created in 15OCT98 (Philipinos and Mexicans are worst off here).

------
HarryHirsch
They determine who belongs to the "best and brightest" by looking at wages.

An alternative hypothesis is that in an industry where getting a raise means
switching jobs the H1B program is successful in suppressing wage levels of
foreigners.

~~~
analyst74
While determining one's skill by how much he/she gets paid sounds ridiculous,
this makes sense if you consider macro trends, as this article is talking
about.

If an industry (like finance) routinely pays multiple times the compensation
of another industry (say, engineering) that requires similar skillset, it's
rational that more of the top graduates will choose finance over engineering.

~~~
piyush_soni
No it doesn't make much sense even if you consider macro trends. Bright
Chinese or Indian workers will almost always be ready to work for lesser wages
than a 'Native American' (if there's something like that) will be ready to
work for. There's a macro economics involved here, but it's not what you
think.

~~~
analyst74
Trust me, in a country with reasonable immigration laws, like Canada, highly
skilled foreign workers do not make less money than locals.

The biggest problem with H1B, which Matloff is critical of, is that it puts
foreign worker and local worker in uneven legal grounds, thus unable to demand
the same wage.

------
ahmad19526
Can we talk about racism? If you're brown or yellow or black... chances are
you don't make the company club (as easily) as well, white people... I've seen
it with my own eyes...

If you're not well networked in a corporation, but still work very well, you
__don't get a higher wage or as much opportunity to a promotion __..

non-white ethnicity is a huge network barrier. It's not like people wanna golf
with you and then go have a fancy chicken tiki massala or eat injera.

Also, could foreign workers be much more ok with simple lives rather than
being ambitious corporate thugs?.. but what's the measure of ambition for
higher salary btwn immigrant and native wokers?

If I came from a village I'd settle for any salary. Using salaries for
understanding is absolutely pathetic..

~~~
JPKab
Until a few months ago I was on the 6th floor of an office building. There was
my office, which was a diverse company (minority woman owned, lots of black,
white, hispanic, Asian, etc). Then next to us was a .NET shop. All they do is
.NET software for the government. ALL Indian/Pakistani. They had one white guy
working for them, and he and I talked on the elevator. He said that the only
reason he was hired was because they couldn't find an Indian guy that knew his
particular specialty. 2 weeks later I saw him on the street corner, and they
had fired him and replaced him with an Indian guy. We shared a floor with this
company for years, and they wouldn't even talk to any of the non Urdu/Hindi
speaking people in my company.

This is the part where you say that I don't have all the information, and
maybe he was a terrible worker. That's also the part where I say that you
likely don't have the full picture of the "company club" either. The cultural
divide can be huge. My former coworker grew up in Punjab. He was very
apprehensive when he tagged along with me on a roadtrip (he loved football)
and my wife wanted to drive. He told me "the women in my family don't drive."
This is the kind of stuff that makes it hard to get into the "company club."

~~~
eshvk
Sadly enough, I have seen this sort of stuff happen. I have worked in teams
which are overwhelmingly South Asian, there are definite situations where they
find it hard to have casual conversations in English with American
counterparts. They form self-selecting groups and there are conversations
which are peppered with Indian languages. Now, this is in someways a reverse
company club. I have no sympathy for people who then complain that they don't
have enough visibility in the company and don't know how to get ahead in the
game.

------
segmondy
They are cheaper. Many people are willing to work for cheaper if that means
that a company will file for them to stay in the US. Companies exploit this.

------
ashwinaj
My graduate STEM classes did not have many US citizens. I bet it's the same in
most universities. I don't think that H1B workers like myself are brighter or
smarter than someone local, but the argument that technology companies are
losing jobs to Wall Street as a validation criteria for his hypothesis is
absurd. Just because Gates says that we need to keep the "best and the
brightest" doesn't mean that we're all Nobel laureates in STEM. We have
certain technical skills which cannot be fulfilled by Americans (due to lack
of American STEM students in universities). That's all.

~~~
eshvk
This is true for my graduate school experience. On the other hand, I have a
rather controversial viewpoint: People trained for four years in an excellent
undergrad program are way better than people who came from an incompetent
undergrad program and have 2 years of a good grad program. Furthermore, the
demographics for undergraduate STEM programs has a huge majority of US
Citizens. So I am not super sure there are technical skills that graduate
students have that cannot be fulfilled by undergraduate students. I think what
has happened is that industry (Computer Science/EE) has become obsessed with
people with graduate degrees. I work as a data scientist and most of what is
done in this field could be done by a competent undergraduate student with
some math, computer science.

~~~
ashwinaj
But compare the number of undergraduate American students in STEM vs number of
students in BBA/pre-med/law/dance/arts/humanities?

There in lies the problem.

~~~
eli_gottlieb
The number of Americans in Comp Sci versus English doesn't matter. What
matters is supply of Americans with BSc Comp Sci versus demand for Americans
with BSc Comp Sci.

~~~
ashwinaj
There is always a demand for software engineers/designers/programmers.
According to recent reports there are 3 million open tech jobs in the US.
Assuming a pessimistic 50% variation in that number, you still have 1.5
million jobs. The popular dislike for "geek/nerd" STEM subjects in American
schools doesn't help. That's unfortunately a societal problem that needs to be
overcomed ("I don't know math", "that's for nerds" etc. fine flip my burger
then).

~~~
eli_gottlieb
_According to recent reports there are 3 million open tech jobs in the US._

Really? Source?

 _("I don't know math", "that's for nerds" etc. fine flip my burger then)._

Not everyone can or should be a programmer.

~~~
ashwinaj
Sure not everyone can or should become a programmer/software engineer. But you
would expect a progressive forward thinking society like the United States,
who has pioneered most of the technological advances in the 20th century to
have a steady flow of STEM graduates, wouldn't you?

I believe there was 60 minutes episode for this.
[http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-25/companies-
say-3-mil...](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-25/companies-
say-3-million-unfilled-positions-in-skill-crisis-jobs.html)

This story includes all open jobs which require "high-tech skills", not
necessarily being software engineers/programmers, and they don't have a
breakdown by job function, unfortunately. Maybe I was misled by the over use
of IT and high-tech that led me to believe they meant IT jobs only.

This snippet is from Obama's Google+ Hangout:
\--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps the most notable exchange during the Hangout was when participant
Jennifer Wedel of Texas, whose husband has had trouble finding permanent
employment for the past three years, interrupted the president.

Obama had said he had a list of folks looking to hire engineers, her husband's
specialty. "There's a huge demand for engineers around the country right now,"
he added, when Wedel jumped in.

"Um, I understand that, but how — given the list that you're getting, I mean
we're not getting that — You said in the State of the Union address that
business leaders should ask themselves what can they do to bring jobs to
America," she said.

The president had a very personal response which Wedel seemed satisfied with.

"If you send me your husband's resume, I'd be interested to find out what's
happening," Obama said. "But the word we're getting is somebody in that high
tech field should be able to find something right away."

"I'll have to take you up on that," she replied.
\--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Although he was getting calls from companies he couldn't move away from North
Texas: [http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2012/04/09/144558/texas-
engineer-...](http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2012/04/09/144558/texas-engineer-who-
sent-obama.html)

And in typical brain-dead, southern conservative fashion his wife blames H1B's
for his inability to get a job (I lived in Texas for over seven years, I know
these things first hand).

------
ricardobeat

        Instead, foreign immigrants have saturated the market, 
        pushing science, technology, engineering, and mathematics 
        students onto other career paths
    

This is contradictory. If immigrants are no better than american workers, and
there is no shortage of the latter, why would immigrants be hired through
complicated and costly processes in the first place?

~~~
JPKab
Because once they are hired, they can be treated like modern day slaves. If
they lose their job, they have to leave the country. This lack of labor force
mobility makes them immediately cheaper. Why pay a competitive salary if you
don't have to compete for this person?

~~~
y1426i
Well, even if they are not treated that way, the bondage feels that way. The
boldness while doing your job well goes away. We cannot ask for promotions
since there is no point. I worked with a huge pay cut for years and today I
question if my decision to come to US was a right one. I could have been in
any of the other open developed countries instead and would have happily
settled down.

------
zpk
If there was a real talent shortage and a real Visa need, then we would allow
H1-B's to self sponsor. Let the company elicit one visa and employee, and have
the Fed gov garnish 5-10k over the first year from the employees' wages. After
that he/shes a free man/woman to look where they choose. Stay employed, stay
out of trouble, and pay another 5-10k and get an additional 3 years. The visa
is tied to the person, which is the way it should be. That's a semi
compromise, but I still would keep the # capped at < 100k new per year. As it
stands with 8% UE we had an increase of 110k in 2010 to 129k in 2011 ,
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa#H-1B_Applications_App...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa#H-1B_Applications_Approved).

------
wjnc
They don't have to be better or brighter to make everyone better off. If there
are jobs and they fill them: they create wealth for the US economy. There's no
fixed sized pie in the economy. They fill a job: the pie increases. Economics
101 for HN

~~~
rayiner
The size of the pie isn't the only thing that matters. Consider two scenarios
of GDP allocation:

Scenario A Shareholder: $100,000, Native programmer: $100,000

Scenario B Shareholder: $150,000, Native programmer: $75,000, H1B programmer:
$75,000

There are good reasons in a democracy to favor scenario A over scenario B. It
just depends on the following premises:

1) the income of non-Americans is irrelevant to American policy;

2) we care more about the income of the median American than the aggregate
GDP;

3) we don't not care about the standard deviation of income

Econ 101 or not, these are not unreasonable premises.

~~~
dman
How about factoring in the tax revenue from American enterprises into the
equation?

~~~
rayiner
Corporate taxes are less than 10% of U.S. revenue and falling. Not a
particularly compelling reason to push for policies that increase corporate
profits.

~~~
jvm
I think parent was talking about the increase in income and consumption taxes
as a result of the new worker paying income tax, capital gains tax due to the
higher returns to capital, and the increase in consumption all around
(resulting in increased sales taxes). Corporate taxes are sort of irrelevant
and are arguably double-taxation since corporate earnings will ultimately be
subject to those other taxes.

~~~
rayiner
Corporate taxes are not arguably double taxation. They just aren't double
taxation, period.

Here is an easy way to figure out if something is double taxation: income that
counts once for GDP but is taxed more than once. If I make $100,000 in NY as
an Illinois resident, and both NY and Illinois tax me on that income without
giving me credit for taxes paid in the other jurisdiction, that's double
taxation. My income is only counted once in GDP, but is taxed more than once.

Corporate taxes are just the natural consequence of passing money through a
distinct legal person (the corporation) in a system that taxes income to legal
persons. Say there is a 10% income tax. I make $100,000. I'm taxed 10% on
that, leaving $90,000. I give $50,000 to you. You're taxed 10% on that,
leaving $45,000. Total income, for the purposes of GDP, is $150,000. Total
taxes collected is $15,000, or 10% of GDP. No double taxation!

So why does anyone create corporate entities? To get the benefit of the
corporation being a distinct legal person: limited liability. It's symmetric:
the corporation is treated as a separate person for liability purposes, and is
treated as a separate person for tax purposes.

------
sonabinu
wish someone would look at the human side of the story - you give so many
years here, have kids who are citizens, you identify with the country and the
culture, you came here legally, you worked hard, you are still waiting to call
this home (at the current state with wait times upto 50 years)

~~~
EduardoBautista
Wait times for H1B visas are not 50 years. You can become a citizen after 8
years of having permanent residency.

~~~
eshvk
1\. Wait times for an Indian/Chinese born person under the EB3 quota are
varied but the backlog as it stands now looks like it might hit 25+ years. I
am not offhand sure about the 50 years number but have heard of it mentioned
earlier.

2\. One becomes a citizen after 5 years of permanent residency. (3 if one is
married to a US citizen.)

------
piyush_soni
Shit Article. Since they're earning less wages (or they're ready to work at
lesser wages than U.S. workers) that means they are "neither brighter nor
better"?

------
emu
This study appears to ignore non-wage compensation (e.g. stock grants). I know
that for me, as a H1B worker who graduated from a US graduate program and
working for one of the large companies named, that stock based compensation is
a substantial fraction of my total pay.

------
eugenemor
Bingo, study showed that because foreign workers are paid no less than us
workers, it is unlikely they are discriminated against. That's a good start.
Now it would be nice if they help address the shortage of _skilled_ workers
(foreign or not) by reforming the visa system

------
InvisibleCities
Yes, but they are "cheaper", which is all that matters, unfortunately.

~~~
piyush_soni
Oh, cheaper, and many times better and brighter, _contrary_ to what the
article says.

------
omonra
But are they better or brighter than low-skilled immigrants?

------
cooldeal
The graph seems to be assuming that an immigrant becoming a citizen suddenly
makes them America's "best and brightest" and are no longer included in the
temporary workers' column. I don't seem them getting filtered out to make the
comparison fairer.

