

Spain government rethinks ban as youth protests grow - chailatte
http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/wbfo/news.newsmain/article/0/0/1805476/World/Spain.government.rethinks.ban.as.youth.protests.grow

======
ghostDancer
The protests are not only because unemployment, in Spain the the two main
political parties are at service of banks and corporations, the protest is
also against the other big party not only the one in the government, people
want a change and a real democracy. There are big problems of corruption and
personal enrichment in both parties.

~~~
rfrey
_people want a change and a real democracy_

Are you claiming elections in Spain are rigged? Or does "real democracy" mean
"folks in power we approve of"?

~~~
potatolicious
The implication of "no real democracy" is not necessarily "rigged/fake
elections", especially since the definition of "democracy" is vague at best,
highly relative, and difficult to specify.

Say, for example, you have a traditional British parliamentary system (that's
in use in many countries around the world). This imaginary country has 50
seats in government spread around geographically... there are some obvious
issues that may arise here:

\- Distribution of seats: should be it population-proportionate? Or should it
account for land mass? Or economic output? There is already a huge point of
contention here.

\- Determination of seat: if Party A wins 51% of the popular vote in every
single district, then will claim 100% governance of the entire country,
despite the fact that 49% of the population voted for someone else. This
problem is exacerbated in countries that have more than two major political
parties, where the ruling party can be given the mandate despite having what
would appear to be a shockingly small portion of the popular vote.

\- Appointed vs. elected positions: many countries do not have elected posts
throughout the government. Which roles should be appointed instead of elected,
and if so by whom?

There are many legitimate claims that you don't have "real democracy" - i.e.,
the government does not accurately represent the will of the people, before
you get into claims of illegitimate and rigged elections.

~~~
tropin
>> if Party A wins 51% of the popular vote in every single district, then will
claim 100% governance of the entire country

What about 51% of the votes in 51% of the districts?

~~~
potatolicious
Ahah, in most places that's 51% of governance - which will appease the macro-
scale proportional-representation folk, but is not without issues.

Let's say you are in a rural district with a great deal of natural lumber
resources. There's a party that's for clearcutting, and two parties adamantly
against it. The party for clearcutting gets 35% of the vote and wins the
election - is it democratic that governance power in the local district is
handed to the _minority_ vote?

Of course, the "easy" solution to this is to do things California-style - i.e.
put every major controversial issue up to a popular vote, to remove the
association of specific issues to party lines. That has its dangers also -
here in Seattle it's resulted in deadlock on major issues and just a complete
clogging of government.

Even if we ignore local governance, the _drawing_ of district boundaries can
also be used to disenfranchise certain demographics. In one city I used to
live in, they redrew the districts to carve up the urban-center population and
mixed them in with the suburban voter base. In this way, pro-urban issues
didn't have a _chance_ , and urban residents couldn't win representation
effectively. Is that democracy?

etc etc. These issues never end - "democracy" is hard to define.

------
joakin
As I heard this morning they will not revoke the ban but treat people with
dignity and dont send the police to hit them.

If we keep the protests without flags and political bias it shouldn't be a
problem with sunday's elections.

I just hope the protests continue until the next year general elections, we
need a change... a big one.

~~~
anamax
> If we keep the protests without flags

Huh? What flags are objectionable?

> and political bias it shouldn't be a problem with sunday's elections.

What's the point of a protest without "political bias"?

Heck - what is a protest without political bias? "We want gravity?"

~~~
Vargas
You cannot change a fundamental law if you have a Democrat or Republican
agenda. You need a broad consensus, only achievable if you focus on the big
issues.

Say that you are trying to pass a new amendment to U.S. Constitution. You have
to stay away from the most partisan issues like, say, gun control.

------
timfpark
yes, it must be the government's fault that the people don't have jobs. it
couldn't be that they have priced themselves out of the market with the
prevailing wage in Spain vs. China. and, of course, they couldn't possibly
start a company to employ themselves. it must be the government's fault. let's
protest.

