

Facebook sued over 'like' button - danso
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-21411622

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adrianonantua
This is getting ridiculous by the minute. Being a software developer, I fear
sooner or later I'll be a target. I feel it's just a matter of time.

But worst of all is the feeling of helplessness of it all: it's a big dog
fight. Small ones either have to run with tail between legs (pay up, give up,
throw work away) or fight to eventually get crushed (by the outcome or by
being out of financial breath in the process).

I apologize for the negative rant, but frankly, as I re-read it, it really
looks more realistic then pessimistic.

~~~
DannyBee
Lobby. Really. Be the guy who writes letters to his congress person and
senator. All the time, every time. Form groups. Stop complaining about it on
an internet forum, get together in real life, and talk to people. Not "random
like-minded techies". Go meet with your senators or congressmen. They take
meetings from constituents. You'll probably end up talking to an LA or
something, but if you _all_ do it, it'll start to have an impact. Tell them
exactly how much money you are spending, and how much time you are wasting,
worrying about this stuff. Form lobbying groups, and advocate.

There are other effective things than the above, it's just an example.

One of the reasons I became a lawyer, instead of just a software engineer, is
because it was clear to me, even 15 years ago, that patents were going to
destroy our industry.

It was also clear that the majority of software engineers would do one of
three things:

1\. Pretend it did not matter.

2\. Dismiss the threat until it became huge.

3\. Complain about it on Usenet (now "random blogs, internet forums, and
social media sites").

It took a long time to get to the point it is now. It will, realistically,
take a long time to get to a better point. Yes, everyone has a quick fix
solution, like "ban software patents" or "pray the federal circuit/supreme
court saves us from years of bad policy and legal decisions". These are all
long shots. They may happen. But it's all short term plays. You need the long
term play as well, in the background, in case these don't work out.

People have this weird idea that the content industry/etc simply backed up a
truck of money to congress people and got the laws they wanted. Instead, they
spend 20+ years meeting with politicians, advocating their position, forming
lobbying groups, and slowly winning politicians over. They showed (mostly
fake) economic benefit, had studies done, kept harping them over and over.
Certainly they donated, but if you think it was simply because they gave some
congressman some money, you don't understand how things get done.

If you want to stop software patents, you need to take this long term approach
as well. Don't get me wrong, I hope the supreme court reigns in the federal
circuit as well. But if you want real change, it often takes time. At least in
the current world, there is a 0% chance this change will happen if the only
action is to write comments about news stories on internet sites.

~~~
IamBren
I find your tone incredibly condescending. What average person has the time,
energy, and expertise for all of this? What you propose doesn't sound
practical to me at all. Take this statement:

> they spend 20+ years meeting with politicians, advocating their position,
> forming lobbying groups, and slowly winning politicians over.

This is exactly what I'm talking about - what average working person with a
family can compete with an army of full time lobbyists whose job it is to meet
with congress, take them out for meals, and do whatever else they do to get
what they want?

Doing all this is a lobbyist's full time job. They're backed by various
industries with seemingly unlimited wealth. Compared to the average person's
net worth, their funding may as well be unlimited. What average person with a
full time job and family could ever compete with this in his or her limited
off time? How practical and useful is it for us to flood congress with
letters, emails and faxes "all the time, every time"? I don't think this is a
useful strategy at all!

And what's wrong with "complaining about it on an internet forum"? Sometimes
it's nice to vent the frustration and hopelessness to people who understand. I
certainly do. There's nothing wrong with this. Sometimes complaining is all we
CAN do right now.

The only practical solution I have found is to fund those whose full time job
it is to be watchdogs and to fight back, like the EFF. That's about the best I
can do for now. I haven't been shown another reasonable action that I can take
that would be truly useful.

~~~
DannyBee
It's fine to find it condescending, it is in fact, mildly condescending.

But it's condescending because of statements like this: "This is exactly what
I'm talking about - what average working person with a family can compete with
an army of full time lobbyists whose job it is to meet with congress, take
them out for meals, and do whatever else they do to get what they want?" and
"And what's wrong with "complaining about it on an internet forum"? Sometimes
it's nice to vent the frustration and hopelessness to people who understand. I
certainly do. There's nothing wrong with this. Sometimes complaining is all we
CAN do right now."

So let's start with the first one. I first suggested you write letters, and
take an occasional meeting. Lunch is fine. Heck even telephone is fine if you
really don't have the time. Average working people get lunch, and have
telephones. They can also write letters. So i find your complaint
disingenuous.

Second, lobbyists are not backed by industries with unlimited wealth. They
aren't magical boogeymen. This is just another way you are trying to make it
seem like there is nothing you can do, so you shouldn't feel bad about
complaining instead of doing something. Most lobbyists are also not full-time
on anything. They are firms, they have a lot of engagements. Maybe some very
small subset is full time on strategy or PR for a few months of a campaign,
for some really big client, but past that, nope. It's like paying a lawyer,
not paying a personal assistant. Most tech folks are pretty well off. They
could probably afford to buy enough lobbyist time to have your lobbyist take
the meetings above if you wanted. This would be less effective than doing it
yourself, and less effective than what I suggested.

You then say "How practical and useful is it for us to flood congress with
letters, emails and faxes "all the time, every time"? I don't think this is a
useful strategy at all!" It is absolutely practical, and absolutely useful.
Congressmen live and die by statistics on what their constituents want,
contrary to popular belief. They track letters, faxes, and phone calls on
issues from constituents. They are briefed on issues and constituent
viewpoints probably every morning. If you flooded them all the time, every
time, it would make an actual impact. They care less about lobbyists than
direct constituents. I'll point out that you didn't actually refute my point,
just again went into "throw up my hands and pretend i can't do anything" mode.

As for the second larger point about complaining, there is no hopelessness
except the hopelessness you are creating by pretending you can do nothing, and
trying to make it seem okay. It's _never_ the case that all you can do is
complain. Never.

I already gave you a reasonable action. You apparently believe your action in
giving the EFF a few bucks is truly useful, and "that's about the best you can
do for now". So let me ask: Has it stemmed the tide of patents? Has it won a
court case? Gotten a law on patents passed? Why do you expect this to change
if you gave them a few more bucks?

Not to belittle the work of the EFF (some of my good friends work there, and
they do what they can), but they should be the support. They are also a fairly
general digital rights org. When congressmen all jump up and down and say "oh
shit, all my constituents are yelling about patents, what the hell should we
be doing?", that's when the EFF is useful to help. Besides that, finding or
providing cheap legal representation for the guy who is getting screwed, or
lending a voice here or there. Past that, if the EFF had a billion dollars,
nothing would change in the current state of the world of patents. Money for
the EFF or lobbyists is not the missing piece of the puzzle here to effect
real change.

You know, its funny. My job puts me in a position where I can see what the
money at least one large tech company spends on lobbyists goes to. I also get
asked to help with these plans from time to time. You know what these
lobbyists spend a lot of their time doing? Trying to get tech folks to write
letters, email, call, or meet with congress people. That thing you claim isn't
effective or practical. The last time I asked a high powered, well monied
lobbyist what the lowest effort, highest impact thing tech folks could do to
win these political fights would be, his answer was simple: "Show up"

FWIW: I am condescending not because I think I am better than you, but because
_you_ are better than this. Do the simple and practical things. Do the things
you haven't tried before. If you want to complain, I certainly can't stop you,
and venting is a wonderful thing to do. But don't act like you can't do
anything, and don't act like doing nothing, helps.

~~~
crusso
_You know what these lobbyists spend a lot of their time doing? Trying to get
tech folks to write letters, email, call, or meet with congress people. That
thing you claim isn't effective or practical._

Amazingly interesting insight. Thanks, DannyBee, for weighing in on this and
other issues. Your comments are really worth reading.

------
homosaur
Tim Berners-Lee should have patented "text pages over a network," dude would
be a bajillionaire.

~~~
astrodust
Also the World Wide Web would never have happened because who would want to
marry themselves to a platform encumbered by so many patents?

~~~
homosaur
So you're saying that patents can be destructive to markets???

Man, I wish someone in the US government agreed with you on thatOH WAIT
<http://research.stlouisfed.org/wp/more/2012-035>

Not that a single report means anything for policy, I just saw this on HN a
few days ago and thought it was relevant to that point.

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omgsean
I too would like to patent the emotional response to seeing something that
brings you joy or amusement.

~~~
homosaur
I'm sorry, this violates my patent on making jokes about patents, I'm going to
need some licensing fees for that...

~~~
leeoniya
someone should patent Patent Trolling. oh wait, so much prior art.

~~~
flyinRyan
IBM is trying to. No really.

EDIT: Here you go lazy downvoters: [http://news.priorsmart.com/ibm-files-the-
patent-troll-patent...](http://news.priorsmart.com/ibm-files-the-patent-troll-
patent-tCcWG/)

------
bluetidepro
The article is pretty vague, it would be nice if they had more details on
these two patents.

~~~
blauwbilgorgel
Here is the original complaint (pdf)

[http://www.rembrandtip.com/pdf/2013-02-04RembrandtSocialComp...](http://www.rembrandtip.com/pdf/2013-02-04RembrandtSocialComplaint.pdf)
(With Facebook and AddThis as defendants)

Here are the two patents in question

<http://www.google.com/patents/US6415316> (1998, Method and apparatus for
implementing a web page diary)

<http://www.google.com/patents/US6289362> (2001, System and method for
generating, transferring and using an annotated universal address)

And here is a patent supposedly in the hands of Facebook right now, that
references one of the above patents. This is now used to claim that Facebook
knew of the patents, and willfully infringed them.

<http://www.google.com/patents/US7907966> (2011, System and method for cross-
platform applications on a wireless phone).

~~~
L4mppu
When will these stupid patents die out?

~~~
logn
Now that all of the tech companies have invested billions in them and would
logically want to protect their investment and competitive advantage, I don't
ever see it ending (since of course corps control government). If we're lucky
someone will get an iPhone banned in the US and then all hell will break
loose.

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tragomaskhalos
The guy who invented the "submit" button is lawyering up as we speak ...

~~~
easytiger
As should the guy who invented clicking.

~~~
speeder
Microsoft once tried to patent the double click. (good that this one failed).

~~~
Aardwolf
Circumvention: the triple click.

~~~
philipmcgarvey
Not a circumvention, since triple-clicking requires double-clicking.

~~~
kamjam
Should have just patented the single click then, as a catch all...

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tathagatadg
What should a 2-3 person startup do if they find themselves in such a
situation (i.e. get sued by a patent troll)?

~~~
tuxidomasx
This makes me wonder if there is a market for patent troll insurance. Pay a
small monthly fee and get legal protection or money to hire your own counsel
in the event of a lawsuit. It seems to be a pain point that small startups
worry about, since it can be pretty deadly to a busines, even if they are
innocent.

~~~
astrodust
Ah, you mean what Intellectual Ventures was supposed to be?

Pay a small membership fee to have access to their "technology" as well as
immunity from being sued with regard to their patents. It's not unlike the
mob, though, having to pay a 'protection fee'.

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giis
I'm planning to get patent for the keyword 'main' then go and sue every
programming application that uses 'main' :P -- patents are ridiculous

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friendly_chap
We herd you like patents dawgs, so we sued you over the like button.

