
So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish - lelf
https://aralbalkan.com/notes/so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-fish/
======
no1youknowz
Honestly, good luck to you and bai!

I am happy for all those that voted Tory. The country would have been a
complete shambles had Labour got in. Do you people have short memories of the
last Labour Goverment?

There was no money left.

Immigration was out of control.

There were musings of ditching the pound and having the euro as the currency.

Giving more powers to the EU.

Complete madness. Labour would not have been more happier if the UK was sold
off like Greece.

Now under a Tory parliament, the UK has a chance of being great again. Being
fiscally responsible and fostering a climate for more jobs for people and
better wages. Last I heard the UK was outpacing Germany!

It's funny, where will you go. Yeah, no-where IS perfect.

~~~
harel
You are being downvoted (and probably me to follow) because you said something
'unpopular' in a context of a quite lefty post. To be honest I think the
British public voted for the better candidate out of the existing options.
They were not presented with stellar choices, so they had to make do. Online
privacy, I believe was not why most people voted or did not vote Tory.

Yes, apps like Aral's (which good on him, I support it), have a _chance_ of
being affected. Maybe. Its just as likely that it won't be. Who knows? The
whole world is snooping and listening so it might as well be happening
wherever he goes.

However, had Labour won you'd see the exact same post created by someone else,
leaving the country because Labour had won, stating his/hers reasons and
telling the public to be ashamed of themselves. This is how democracy works.
half the people will be unhappy.

~~~
dijit
Labour is increasingly right wing, but you're wrong about Tory's being a good
option.

Tories now have majority rule in the house of commons for 5 years, which means
they can push whatever they want as long as they're aligned without being
reigned in. Last time this happened the gap between rich and poor deepened
massively, benefits were slashed, our rail system was privatised and Libraries
closed- oh, and Miners went on strike due to terrible conditions.

38% is not a Majority vote, in my mind, and leveraging young voters because
they "don't know better" and have very little consideration to other issues
that do not affect young fit workers is a very American thing to do.

honestly, growing up poor has taught me to respect socialist ideals such as
public free healthcare and benefits for the unable. - But there was a time in
my teen years where even I would have voted conservative because "these
issues" wouldn't have affected me as a young worker- but they will one day and
people should be quick to recognise that.

Tories scare the life out of me, they have a history of being self-serving. :\
and you're right about the choices not being stellar.

I'd suggest creating another party- but we have so many!

~~~
harel
By the way, I don't' see myself as left or right wing. I look at an issue, and
sometimes the left has a good solution, sometimes the right does. What we need
is not a new party - we need a new way of governance which is issue based, not
'time' based. Maybe one day technology will be advanced and easy enough to
allow safe referendums from your mobile device. Continuous referendums...

~~~
dcabrera1436
Continuous referendums... mind blown. Anyone working on this?

~~~
MCRed
This is what libertarians would like.

We would also like that the "consent of the governed" be unanimous. Or at
least very high.

Just because %60 of the population, for instance, wants to ban gay marriage,
they should't be able to. IT should take %95 or something like that.

We no longer have the multi-week latency between our hometown and washington.
Votes can be instantaneous-- and in the 1990s MIT made software that would
allow anyone to audit an election and prove it was legitimate, and prove that
their vote was counted, electronically. Everyone could do a recount in a few
minutes. Things like the blockchain might even be a better way to do the same
thing.

So we no longer need "representatives" that don't even represent us-- because
they are picked by the two party heads in a system that keeps any other party
out, structurally with "election rules"\-- not even getting into the
shenanigans that keep them out of debates, and off the ballots in many cases.

Frankly, I think our election system is deeply compromised (whoever controls
the software controls the outcome) and representational government is no
longer necessary.

~~~
URSpider94
So, rewind 10 years or so, when there was a de facto ban on gay marriage.
Would you have required the same 90% margin to repeal the ban?

How about to pass a budget?

In a direct democracy, who writes the bills?

Should people be taking 10 hours out of their week to read and vote on all of
the items that would be put before them?

------
mschuster91
> Our list includes Germany (Berlin, Hamburg?)

Seriously? I'm a German and I'm simply surprised no one is out on the streets
or that there is no nationwide strike after the revelation that our current
government has:

\- blatantly lied to us wrt NSA "no-spy deal"

\- the BND tries to conceal just how deep they were up the NSA's butthole

\- Heckler&Koch tried to get MAD (the military's (counter)-espionage agency)
to silence the press over the G36 scandal.

As soon as I got some money together, I'm out. That's not what I consider an
acceptable environment here, and I honestly don't see any political force
trying to change the way things run (or those who try have no serious hope of
ever gaining power).

~~~
girvo
Where are you going to go, though... all of the western countries seem to have
this exact same problem. My home, Australia, is just as secretive if not
worse, the UK is bust, and more and more info is coming out showing that no
government is immune. It's really disheartening.

The worst part is, the Australian government really did foil a possible
terrorist attack. Guess where the info on the perp came from? Mass
surveillance? Their new metadata retention laws (okay, that's a cheap shot as
it hasn't been implemented yet)?

Nope. It was a tip-off to the national security hotline.

~~~
andrewstuart
>> the Australian government really did foil a possible terrorist attack

If you buy that.

~~~
girvo
I dunno, I'm as skeptical as anyone else I know but this time I don't see why
it'd be worth lying about -- considering it was the tip-off not the other
surveillance programs that led them to him, and it's public knowledge.

------
rashkov
Aral Balkan gave a superlative talk a few days ago at re:publica 2015, called
Beyond The Camera Panopticon:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh8supIUj6c](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh8supIUj6c)

It's a broad overview the current state of the internet as seen through a
cyberpunk, pro- freedom, human rights, and privacy perspective. Aral is a
dynamic speaker and delivers it with a delightfully dark and sardonic voice.
Really one of the best talks I've seen on the topic.

~~~
dragontamer
This was an absolutely disgusting talk.

I prefer this style:

[http://dontbubble.us/](http://dontbubble.us/)
[http://donttrack.us/](http://donttrack.us/)

You know... the kind of talks that don't constantly disparage audience members
for being white, or religious... or those who have slightly political views.

~~~
jchrome
"constantly disparage audience members for being white or religious.."

Hyperbole much? He may have been disparaging of religions (once in the talk,
mind you) but never white people.

The talk's great.

~~~
dragontamer
[https://youtu.be/jh8supIUj6c?t=16m13s](https://youtu.be/jh8supIUj6c?t=16m13s)

No one but the White man can bring the Internet to you.

Dude, I'm not even white and I find it disparaging. The talk is terrible. It
is politically charged when it really shouldn't be. The issue is simple:
Privacy concerns are not being respected by Facebook or Google.

I don't know why he keeps bringing up "White People" conquering nations, or
"The White Dude who lives in a Cloud and watches over Us" , or any of the
other disparaging remarks. What the hell? How many times does he call Mark
Zuckerberg _white_? Why have any emphasis there at all?

If it were a black man in charge of Facebook violating our privacy, it'd be
just as bad. Why did he have to bring Mark Zuckerberg's race into this?

Its one thing to be against the system, or to expose the system's flaws to the
world. But disparaging the audience is not the answer. His harmful speech is
going to hurt the cause in the long term.

~~~
jchrome
"I don't know why he keeps bringing up "White People" conquering nations, or
"The White Dude who lives in a Cloud and watches over Us" , or any of the
other disparaging remarks. What the hell? How many times does he call Mark
Zuckerberg white? Why have any emphasis there at all?"

You obviously don't understand the main point he is driving at. It's about
colonialism. And throughout history, the White Man is typically the colonizer.
He's just furthering his point.

I am* white and I don't find it disparaging.

~~~
dragontamer
> You obviously don't understand the main point he is driving at. It's about
> colonialism. And throughout history, the White Man is typically the
> colonizer. He's just furthering his point.

When Google starts to suck the blood out of southeast Asian coolies (to make
it harder for them to run away) and furthers the Opium trade to establish
economic dominance over China, then he can start comparing modern companies to
1800s-style century colonialism.

Mind you, the East India Company was a privately owned enterprise. And as far
as I can tell, that's what he's implicitly comparing Google to.

And as he compares Google to 1800s colonialism, he is making a _complete_
mockery of history. Are you freaking serious? Free Internet offered on
balloons is equivalent to EIC-style Imperialism / Colonialism ?

It's equivalent to murdering hundreds-of-thousands of Zulu spearmen with
Gatling Guns to establish South Africa Diamond Trade?

His arguments are a _mockery_ of history, and anyone who knows the brutal
history of colonialism can only shake their head at the comparison. You are a
FOOL to even attempt to draw an equivalency here.

Again, I _agree_ with the point he is _trying_ to make. The problem is that
he's an absolutely horrible speaker and horrible arguer. I told you, I
_refuse_ to use Facebook or Twitter on privacy grounds. And I've switched my
search engine to DDG.gg. I'm living the practice dude, I take online privacy
very seriously.

But the hyperbolic elitist aura eminated from Aral Balkan is going to harm the
privacy cause in the long run. I prefer to see people on my side of the
argument making solid points. Again: Search Bubble. Search privacy. Metadata
collection. It is pretty easy to point out the issues of the modern internet:
you don't need to make a mockery of history to make good points here.

~~~
jchrome
> "And as he compares Google to 1800s colonialism, he is making a _complete_
> mockery of history. Are you freaking serious? Free Internet offered on
> balloons is equivalent to EIC-style Imperialism / Colonialism ?"

Colonialism comes in many forms. Sure, there are obvious forms such as
enslaving a population and making them mine ore from a mountain so that the
colonist can get physical goods. Then there are less obvious forms, cultural
imperialism as an example (or as Aral calls it, Digital Imperialism).

Open your mind a bit and criticize him for what he's really saying. You're
fighting a straw-man here.

------
dash2
I do think this is a fairly silly example of throwing your toys out of the
pram. Yes, we should be concerned about threats to civil liberties and human
rights - which exist under governments of every shade (hi, Obama). A citizen's
response to this, as opposed to a globe-trotting metic's, is to fight
diligently and patiently to minimize harm and make small improvements. The
threat to ind.ie's business model seems remote; presumably whether they might
be forced to backdoor their products would depend on whether they sell them in
the UK, not where the code was written.

As for "feeling ashamed of myself" and "being held responsible" by these
chaps, who "don't want to hear my excuses" for voting Tory: ha ha ha, sorry
stranger but why should I give two hoots?

------
stonogo
I have long been convinced that people throwing meaningless public temper
tantrums like this was an American habit. Nice to see people across the pond
slam the door too.

~~~
themartorana
SOPA.

Edit: down votes? What exactly is the problem with pointing out a huge victory
for "meaningless public temper tantrums?"

~~~
MCRed
Well, I didn't vote you up or down, I'm replying instead-- but SOPA was
passed... when they tried again and called it "net neutrality". Everyone was
for it, but did you read the 800 pages?

~~~
zerocrates
The actual "rules" part of the Open Internet order is 8 pages long.

~~~
tzs
And the rest, part that is explanations and cites and summaries of the
comments received during the commentary period isn't anywhere near 800 pages.

------
pcmonk
Welfare cuts, privatization, etc. "widen the already unsustainable systemic
inequality that poses an existential threat for our entire species."? That's
insanely hyperbolic, and it makes it difficult for me to take the rest of the
article seriously. If our species disappears any time soon, it's not going to
be because of welfare cuts.

~~~
objclxt
That's not what Aral is saying, though. He's saying "unsustainable systemic
inequality" poses an existential threat, and that welfare cuts contribute to
that. He is clearly not talking about welfare cuts alone.

------
Animats
Good for him!

Fortunately, he can work anywhere in the EU. If the UK leaves the EU, it will
be too late for UK subjects. (Under this government, "subjects" is more than a
historical reference).

~~~
makeitsuckless
His pro-EU argument and the notion of staying in the EU and short listing
places like surveillance state Sweden undermines the credibility of most of
his arguments.

The corrupt, undemocratic super state the EU, inventors of the data retention
law and other shit, strives for is a far worse prospect than a UK that has
survived Thatcher and will survive Cameron because at least it's still a
democracy.

The possibility of blowing up the EU is the only good thing that might come
out of this UK government.

If he wants freedom, democracy and no surveillance state, he should get out of
the EU.

------
themodelplumber
Interesting to read--best of luck to Aral. Nationalism seems to be spreading
all over Europe, so I can understand why "where to go next" is a tough
decision.

~~~
Mithaldu
As a german with not a iota of patriotism, aside from a little pride in the
social institutions still maintained here, i'm honestly curious:

Where do you see nationalism increasing in germany?

~~~
coldtea
> _Where do you see nationalism increasing in germany?_

In Germany's behavior within the E.U. and open desire to rule Europe?

In their characterizing of Southern countries (even in popular media read by
millions, etc) with terms used in the past to describe Jews? (from "lazy" and
"pests" to "traitors" and "PIIGS").

In the frequent verbal attacks immigrants from Greece (for example) face in
Germany, in shops and public spaces?

~~~
jpatokal
> In Germany's behavior within the E.U. and open desire to rule Europe?

Citation needed. It's Germany's money that's bankrolling the bailouts, and as
far as I can tell (from quite some distance away, mind you), the public
opinion is less "We need Lebensraum! Let's take over southern Europe!" and
more "Fund Greece & co with my tax money? NOPE NOPE NOPE."

~~~
coldtea
> _Citation needed.It 's Germany's money that's bankrolling the bailouts, and
> as far as I can tell (from quite some distance away, mind you)_

First, it's not just about the current bailout. It's a pattern of behavior
going back to the eighties, and especially evident after the re-union with
East Germany, and it has to do with control of EU directives and policies
(including, but not limited to, monetary policies).

(Or rather, one could say, it's a pattern of behavior going back to the first
and second world wars, as the whole European Union, as an initiative was
thought up to constrain future German foul-play ( [http://www.amazon.com/The-
New-World-Perry-Anderson/dp/184467...](http://www.amazon.com/The-New-World-
Perry-Anderson/dp/1844677214) )).

> _It 's Germany's money that's bankrolling the bailouts, and as far as I can
> tell_

Not really. In fact they could care less about Greece or the South in general,
it's about saving their banks and using tax-payer money to siphon it to the
German (and French etc) equivalent of Wall Street:

[http://www.economist.com/node/18560535](http://www.economist.com/node/18560535)

[http://speri.dept.shef.ac.uk/2013/11/11/dirty-secret-euro-
zo...](http://speri.dept.shef.ac.uk/2013/11/11/dirty-secret-euro-zone-crisis-
german-banks/)

[http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2013-09-12/is-
germany-r...](http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2013-09-12/is-germany-
responsible-for-the-euro-crisis)

[http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-06-11/crisis-
sav...](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-06-11/crisis-saves-
germany-about-100-billion-kiel-institute-says)

[http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/germany-
profiting...](http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/germany-profiting-
from-euro-crisis-through-low-interest-rates-a-917296.html)

[https://euobserver.com/economic/114231](https://euobserver.com/economic/114231)

------
cobweb
Nice if you can do it. I swore I'd leave if the Tories got in in 2010. But I
didn't... I have roots in the UK with family and friends, and they are
difficult bonds to break. A few hundred miles from some people already feels
like it is too wide a gulf.

------
tangled
The author does have a choice as to whether to stay or leave. (They are
actually in a very fortunate position if they can just leave the country.)
It's also premature to presume that all of the Tory policies will actually be
implemented. An alternative course of action would be to stay and campaign
against the referenced policies.

~~~
sekasi
I'm not sure what your point is here. Yes, he has a choice and that's a good
thing. Why do you bring that up? They are making a choice based off
fundamental disagreements with policies that the now-ruling party stands for.
Of course it's impossible to work out exactly what policy will be implemented,
that's not really the point.

~~~
tangled
No, the author claims he has no choice: "By voting in a Tory government, you
basically did not leave us any other choice." This feels like a dishonest
representation of the situation.

------
arthur_debert
Sorry. Here's the dissonance: we're building tools (including secure
messaging) that are government snooping safe. We care deeply about the privacy
and security of our users. And the web page that tells us that has mixed
content warnings on ssl.

Maybe nitpicking, but security and OPSEC in particular requires insane focus
and attention to every little detail. If you can trip up on the small things,
I could hardly trust you to get the hard things right.

~~~
ChrisAntaki
To be fair, the script is
"[http://localhost:35729/livereload.js"](http://localhost:35729/livereload.js").
That shouldn't leak anything to an adversary, if the request doesn't leave the
client's computer.

Still should be fixed though, so the HTTPS warning can serve its function and
call out real threats.

~~~
arthur_debert
You're 100% right. It's just that security is so hard to get right. Only
(maybe not even) the paranoid survive on that front. All it takes is one tiny
detail to screw everything up. Leaving development artifacts on your live
server is not very tranquilizing on that front.

~~~
aral
Indeed :) And thanks for the heads up, Arthur. Was a bit of debugging code
left in by mistake. Fixed it when I was skimming these comments yesterday but
haven’t had a chance to reply and say thanks until now :)

------
vilmosi
When your vision is:

>> While Apple is a closed, proprietary company, they are not a spyware
company like Google.

>> Together, we can build a future where we have independent alternatives to
the spyware of companies like Google and Facebook.

I can just say... good luck and good bye!

------
eswat
Good luck!

I wonder if similar actions would be considered in Canada if C-51 passes the
Supreme Court.

------
kirubakaran
How about Costa Rica? Fast Internet. Good weather. Beautiful country. Friendly
people. And they don't even have a military.

~~~
fredtp
Your are good at avoiding the US immigration system why do you help out lelf

------
cobweb
I am not quite sure I understand the ramifications for the indie phone with
something like the snoopers charter.

I would hope there was no such thing as an indie cloud (all your address book,
call history, online searches etc. tucked away in some silo that is ripe for
picking), but rather a decentralised system that was impervious to snooping.

~~~
mindcrash
Speaking as a friend of Aral (living abroad) here; Indie Cloud _is_ planned to
have a completely decentralized storage infrastructure, which makes it
impervious to snooping. However, if Aral remains in the UK there's a pretty
big, let's say 100%, chance that the Cameron government will force him or
anyone else working on Indie in the UK to either place backdoors in the code
or the completely optional hosting services (which can be used while you, as
the customer, are still in possession and control of your own data). That's
why he's leaving -- if he stays he simply cannot build a organization and
service portfolio based on the principles Indie has.

------
arde
Why didn't he mention the Netherlands?

~~~
simondelacourt
I don't know, but I can't say the Netherlands is that much more progressive
when it comes to privacy.

The data retention law has been put on hold, but the ruling VVD is looking for
ways to get it back.

Bits for Freedom is an organisation worth checking out;
[https://www.bof.nl/category/english/](https://www.bof.nl/category/english/)

------
sparkzilla
The only way you always get the government want is when you are a dictator in
North Korea. Instead of throwing a tantrum that has no real result, spread the
word about your beliefs in a non-condescending way. You might even get some
people to change their minds.

------
seesomesense
You might have to leave the planet.

Every country with the ability has it's citizens under surveillance.

Some of my clients are in counter-terrorism roles in my country ( Western,
democratic ) and they confirm that they have extensive extra-judicial
surveillance abilities.

~~~
mavdi
I'm pretty sure you broke ~20 laws just there.

------
web007
I'm curious - will leaving the country affect eligibility for the ind.ie
domain?

~~~
dnlbyl
.ie is Ireland's TLD.

~~~
web007
Yes, but does UK citizenship / resident-alien status / locality have anything
to do with eligibility for .ie TLD registration?

The description of who can use *.ie is slightly vague on Wikipedia, but
indicates there has to be a "tie" to Ireland. Moving the company out of the
country seems like it might break whatever tie was there if it's based on any
of the above criteria.

It's already too complicated to me as an Ugly American to differentiate
Ireland, Northern Ireland, the UK, (Great) Britain and/or England, I'm hoping
someone with more expertise can comment.

~~~
Twirrim
Ireland is not part of the UK, but it is part of Britain.

Northern Ireland is part of the UK, but that's a completely different country
from Ireland. Being UK born or based gives you no privileges over the .ie
domain at all.

The best thing to do is to watch this great, quick and witty primer on the
whole thing Britain/UK/England thing:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNu8XDBSn10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNu8XDBSn10)

~~~
tagawa
> Ireland is not part of the UK, but it is part of Britain.

Ireland is part of the British Isles, not Britain (which is England, Scotland
& Wales).

~~~
Twirrim
Blargh.. of course, perfect time to have a brain fart :)

------
tacone
> It’s quite possible that all this will backfire spectacularly as England
> shifts ever further right in its xenophobia and that the British will vote
> to leave the EU.

Referendum on EU exit == xenophoby? Seriously?

~~~
necrodawg
Brits aren't xenophobic at all. Just classist. If you're poor AND and
immigrant, that really sucks. If you're a well off immigrant that's fine.

------
excalq
Why not Ireland? You do have a .ie domain, afterall!

------
xupybd
Have you considered NZ?

~~~
squidsoup
New Zealand is part of the 'Five eyes' intelligence network, which also
includes Australia, Britain, Canada and the US. I can't imagine things are any
better here, despite our government's claim that it does not participate in
mass surveillance.

~~~
rdc12
And the evidence that is never "right", but never explained why.

------
fubvr
Why not Greece?

------
pellmellism
Dolphins are the smart ones....42

