
France’s Zone Rouge – A Forbidden No Man’s Land Poisoned by War (2015) - ourmandave
http://www.messynessychic.com/2015/05/26/the-real-no-go-zone-of-france-a-forbidden-no-mans-land-poisoned-by-war/
======
kakwa_
I used to live in the area of the Battle of the Somme. Red zones are not
common, nearly all the land of the former battlefield is now cultivated.

In fact, after the war, the red zones were quite extensive, but there was an
intense lobbying to reopen these lands to agriculture.

In the 20ies, a farmer detonated an unexploded ammunition was not an uncommon
occurrence.

Nowadays, this is a really rare event, I think there was a case in Belgium
about 10 years ago, but it's quite uncommon.

However, when you dig, you always find something. My mother started a small
garden (about 4 x 8 meters) a few years ago and when she worked the soil for
the first time, she found various leftovers like shell heads, shell fragments,
bullets, lead spheres used in shrapnel rounds, etc.

And it's not uncommon to find unexploded shells on the side of the roads,
farmers when they find them, put them on the side of their fields.

When my mother was a child in the 50ies and 60ies, she used to help her
parents collect these various metal fragments as it was a way to get a small
additional revenue for the family. When we cleaned-up my late grand-father's
house, there were buckets full of those in fact. There was also an unpinned
unexploded grenade by the way. If I recall correctly, they called the local
"garde champetre" to deal with it, and it's still in his attributions to deal
with such finds.

However, there are some big ammunition depots in north of France with all
these WWI shells collected over the years. And a lot of those shells are still
not neutralized.

Also, another interesting side effect is all the cemeteries in the area, the
land is literally peppered with them. And these cemeteries are UK territories
(In fact the Thiepval monument is one of the highest structure on UK soil and
in continental Europe). This was actually a blocker for a nearby city (Albert)
when they tried to extend their airport, they were blocked by these
cemeteries.

~~~
tom_mellior
> However, when you dig, you always find something.

This seems to be something that some British tourists like to do. At Paris
Gare du Nord where you board the Eurostar train to London there are signs
saying that _you are not allowed to bring explosives that you dug up as
souvenirs on board a fricking train_.

> In fact the Thiepval monument is one of the highest structure on UK soil and
> in continental Europe

What do you mean? Highest in what sense? According to Wikipedia it's 43 meters
high, which isn't a lot, so that cannot be what you mean.

~~~
kakwa_
Yes, that doesn't surprise me that much. Also, there is a tourism industry
that has developed around the years. There are a lot of decedents of WWI
soldiers coming to see where their ((great-)great)-grand father fought/died
100 years ago, we see people from Australia, New-Zealand, Canada, the UK.

As for the Thiepval monument, I meant one of the tallest building on sovereign
UK soil, but outside the British Isles. However, I've heard in a casual
conversation, I'm not sure it's actually true. Yet, it's definitely a big
memorial monument ^^, you can see it from miles away.

~~~
tom_mellior
Ah, OK. _Both_ on UK soil _and_ in continental Europe, I see. Yes, that's
quite possible, since other than that there's only Gibraltar, I think.

(Though, off-topically, I don't necessarily buy the "UK soil" part. Supposedly
even the "embassies are foreign soil" thing is more of an urban legend than
legal reality. Also, the monument being the _property_ of the UK should be
enough to block its destruction.)

~~~
jcranmer
> Supposedly even the "embassies are foreign soil" thing is more of an urban
> legend than legal reality.

It depends on what you mean by "foreign soil." Embassies are extraterritorial
--as the name implies, it does not represent a claim on land, but the laws of
the diplomat's country, not the host country, generally apply. This difference
is sometimes crucial: being born in an embassy would not give you jus soli
citizenship and GWB set up the terrorist prison in Guantanamo Bay to try to
ensure that the Constitution wouldn't apply (since Guantanamo Bay isn't US
soil, it's a base leased to the US by Cuba).

------
stupidcar
There's something very sci-fi seeming about the idea of a huge battlefield
from a long-ago war, still too contaminated with old poisons and weaponry to
safely enter. Which nature has mostly reclaimed, except in dead zones so toxic
that not even plants can grow there.

And yet, this is a real thing that happened, and is a part of our past. A
generation who very soon will only be ancestors the living participated in
battles so destructive that they did this to the land they were fought on. I
find that difficult to fathom.

Of course, humans have only gotten better at killing each other since, and WW2
was more destructive overall. But the static nature of the Western front,
combined with the unrestrained use of artillery and gas, and the total
commitment of manpower on both sides in places like Verdun, gave its battles
an apocalyptic intensity that I think is unmatched in any war before or since.
And that, hopefully, we won't ever see again.

~~~
Clubber
It's just not WWI, there are minefields all over the world that still kill
people that wander into them.

The only reason WW2 had more combat casualties than WWI is that the USSR
decided to defend their country with a meat wall of unprepared soldiers. That
generation of Russians had like an 80% casualty rate or something crazy like
that. Nearly wiped out an entire generation.

~~~
John_KZ
Let me correct that phrase: One of the main reasons WW2 _ended_ , was because
the Russians defended their country fiercely with their lives, and because the
communism establishment industrialized Russia enough to produce war munitions
and equipment. I hate to see people injecting anti-communist bullshit
everywhere, even when it's irrelevant.

The Russians, and the people of the USSR, like all the allied forces, died
heroically in the battlefield fighting fascists. Calling them a "meat wall"
really fucking grinds my gears as it's extremely insulting and derogatory to
the dead.

~~~
gandhium
> communism establishment industrialized Russia enough to produce war
> munitions and equipment

They lost most of the munitions and equipment in first _months_ of war, and
lost half of the factories as well.

So they had to rely on lend-lease from much-hated capitalists.

And yes, human waves (if you don't like other term) and general disregard for
human lives were common in Soviet tactics. That's the reason for staggering
losses (they still cannot get their number right, now there are talks that
USSR losses were 2x higher, i.e. ~40 millions).

~~~
ethelward
I'm sorry, but you have no idea what you're talking about. Please read some
actual historians work concerning the Eastern Front like Glantz or Zaloga
before spewing pop history nonsense.

~~~
gandhium
Yeah, definitely no idea. Several years spent researching into WW2 history -
and all are for nothing.

Thank you, good sir, I will drink myself out.

But before I indulge myself into drowning myself in beer, can you please
elaborate, where you'd saw a 'pop history nonsense'?

~~~
ethelward
> Several years spent researching into WW2 history - and all are for nothing.

Well, I don't know where you did, but you shild ask for a refund if that's
what you got on the Eastern Front after several years.

> where you'd saw a 'pop history nonsense'?

> They lost most of the munitions and equipment in first _months_ of war, and
> lost half of the factories as well.

Indeed, they lost a lot of (mostly obsolete) equipment, but still were able to
out produce the Germans from 1942 on in most areas.

> and lost half of the factories as well.

And still had enough to bring back to the Urals (as well as pre-established
ones) to keep war industry running.

> And yes, human waves (if you don't like other term) and general disregard
> for human lives were common in Soviet tactics.

Yah, that's German propaganda for you man. They were

> That's the reason for staggering losses

Absolutely nothing to do with the litteral extermination of Soviet PoW by the
Germans (more than 3M deaths).

> now there are talks that USSR losses were 2x higher, i.e. ~40 millions

Is unsourced rumor that literally more than one out of 5 Soviet citizen died
in the war really worth to mention?

> human waves were common in Soviet tactics

Please let me show you some orders directly from Zhukov:

The commanders of the divisions are personally at fault for the 49th Army's
failure to accomplish its objectives and for its heavy casualties. __They
still grossly violate the instructions of Comrade Stalin and the order of the
Front regarding the use of massed artillery to achieve a breakthrough __, and
about the tactics and techniques of attacking the defenses of populated areas.
The units of the 49th Army for many days criminally continue their head-on
attacks on Kostino, Ostrozhnoye, Bogdanovo and Potapovo without any success,
while suffering heavy losses.

Even a person with basic military education can understand that these
settlements are very suitable defensive positions. The areas in front of these
settlements are ideal for firing upon, but despite this the criminally
conducted attacks continue in the same places. As a result of the stupidity
and indiscipline of the organizers, people pay with their lives, without
bringing any benefit to the Motherland.

If you still want to keep your current ranks, I demand:

Immediately __stop the criminal head-on attacks on the settlements. Stop the
head-on attacks on heights with good firing positions __. When attacking make
full use of ravines, forests and terrain that is not easily fired upon.
Immediately breakthrough between the settlements and, without waiting for
their complete fall, tomorrow capture Sloboda, Rassvet and advance up to
Levshina. Report the execution of the order to me by 24:00 of 27 January.

Yes, there were stupid head-on attacks from inexperienced and/or incompetent
officers. No, they were not “common Soviet tactics”.

~~~
gandhium
> Is unsourced rumor that literally more than one out of 5 Soviet citizen died
> in the war really worth to mention?

Are you aware of their reluctancy to show true numbers? In 1946 they've
declared the number of losses as 7 millions. 15 years later - 20 millions. 40
years later - 27 millions.

Now, 70 years later, they're talking about 40 millions.

------
cletus
I've just been listening to Dan Carlin's Hardcore History podcast and it's
amazing. I'm listening to Blueprint for Armageddon, which is a 6 part series
(3+ hours each!) About the First Works War and it's fascinating and
horrifying.

He speaks at length about the Battle of Verdun. And it toss house list of
places and battles he's never want to be at.

~~~
tenaciousDaniel
It's the best. I love Dan Carlin.

~~~
prawn
I was a late Carlin convert. For anyone on the fence, give it a shot - his
material in Blueprint is rarely over the top, it never feels unduly expanded,
etc. He shows it respect, but you can feel his passion for the subject and he
makes every detail interesting.

I also enjoyed Celtic Holocaust, which is a more approachable length.

~~~
refurb
I have one of his Blueprint for Armageddon episodes a try and couldn't get
through it. Seemed very long winded and too much literary flourish.

Maybe I picked a wrong episode or need to give it another try.

~~~
mstade
He does get long winded at times, but it’s worth sticking with it. There’s a
lot of detail in there that is often lost in <hour long documentaries,
including a fair bit of comparison to modern times. The first episode, where
he discusses the importance of Gavrilo Princip and how his actions depends on
the eye of the beholder is particularly enlightening. There are some
comparisons to the Kennedy assasination which can feel like a stretch at
times, but definitely thought provoking.

I think if you come into the series believing you’ll hear a straight up
factual recount of events without bias, you’ll be disappointed. It’s more of a
discussion (albeit in monologue form) than documentary. That said I find he
treads the topic very carefully, trying hard to present the case in different
lights – I think this might be why it’s a bit long winded at times. At the
same time, this is what gives it color in my opinion. He’s also a very good
narrator I feel.

I wouldn’t base a history paper off of these episodes, but I’d be comfortable
in using them as a starting point for deeper dives.

------
sengork
They say that a photo is worth a thousand words. This is certainly the case
with the the last few photos of the landscape how it looked before and after.

Likewise Black Adder series concluded with a similar visual contrast:
[https://youtu.be/vH3-Gt7mgyM?t=176](https://youtu.be/vH3-Gt7mgyM?t=176)

~~~
zeristor
Thanks for that

------
Fradow
It's important to keep in mind most of those zones are not a No Man's land
anymore. I often go around Lens, Béthune and Arras (family live in that area),
and never heard about or seen anything like pictured in the article, except in
museums.

People live there, there are farms everywhere, and many, many small cities and
villages.

Some forbidden areas might still exists, and I wouldn't be surprised about
people finding relics of the war (bunkers ruins are a common sight on the
nearby beaches for example), but it's nowhere near as pictured on the map.

~~~
ItsMe000001
You can't see soil contamination though. The visible scars are the least of
the problems.

> _Until the mid 1970s, much of the “clean-up” was only done superficially,
> destroying hundreds of thousands of unexplored WWI chemical bombs without
> considering the leaks and contamination to the soil and water._

> _Alarming amounts of lead debris scattered by shrapnel were also left in
> place, contaminating the soil with non biodegradable lead, mercury and zinc
> likely to remain for at least 10,000 years to come._

In addition, you don't get obviously sick from heavy metals such as mercury or
lead unless it's a large enough amount to result in acute poisoning symptoms.
It has an effect in the tiniest amounts though, and it bio-accumulates.

~~~
Fradow
I can see land is actively used for farming, which means it's probably not
contamined anymore.

I never saw any of the "forbidden" signs anywhere on the other hand.

Which doesn't mean it's not a thing, I don't pretend to know all the area, it
just means it's small enough in size and in remote areas, so that a local
don't stumble upon this anymore.

~~~
ItsMe000001
> _I can see land is actively used for farming, which means it 's probably not
> contamined anymore._

Given my own experience as someone who had a (lab test proven) chronic heavy
metal poisoning and what my (university researcher) doctor told me, but also
what I know from the history of lead until and even after it got banned from
gasoline, your assumption that people (officials) care is probably
unwarranted.

What cannot be seen, and what does not have any immediately recognizable and
attributable effects, but on the other hand causes large costs, is usually
dismissed by most people, and pointing it out is "irrational" and "fear
mongering". There are people who want to go back to Chernobyl, only recently
(on HN?) there was an article about young people illegally going there,
claiming there is no problem. That's individuals - the incentive is even
higher for officials not impacted by any negative effects, but who are
impacted when they "hinder the economy with useless regulations".

> _a local don 't stumble upon this anymore._

A local won't notice. Not even if they themselves slowly get poisoned by small
trace amounts. From experience, you cannot tell the effects of low-dose
chronic heavy metal poisoning from thousands of other little problems _(unless
you take chelators for long periods to see if they change anything; but they
themselves don 't do all that much since they only work in extracellular
space, but much or most of the poison is stored inside cells in chronic
poisoning)_. Eye sight suffers? RSI symptoms? Dry eyes? Occasional muscle
cramps here and there? Bowel problems? Skin issues (e.g. psoriasis, etc.)?
Easily stressed? Occasionally slightly aggressive for no apparent reason? It
is _subtle_ , and every single symptom can be attributed to "age", "stress",
"that's normal" ("everybody has problems"). As I said, you don't get
recognizably sick in any traditional sense. In addition, even if a doctor
knows about the problem and would be willing to diagnose it, it actually is
impossible on an individual basis since you cannot reliably measure body
burden unless you cut pieces off of organs and send them to a lab.
Alternatively, one can try chelation for very long periods (6-12 months at
least) and see if that helps with anything. All very impractical.

So, since it's impossible to reliably recognize (on an individual basis - it
would require population statistics, large samples), nothing happens. See the
lead discussions that came up after Flint, when it was in the news that there
were a lot more places than Flint with lead problems. It's all out of the news
again by now - guess what is going to happen with all those places.... I'd say
nothing at all.

For perspective, in the German state of Bavaria there still is an active alert
for radioactive wild boar caused by Chernobyl fallout, which I would think was
a lot less than what happened in the trenches of WWI (scale, yes I know, one
is about radioactivity, the other one about "only" heavy metals and chemical
poisons): [http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/a-quarter-
cent...](http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/a-quarter-century-
after-chernobyl-radioactive-boar-on-the-rise-in-germany-a-709345.html)

------
mdturnerphys
"German researchers found extremely dangerous levels of up to 17% arsenic in
the soil"

That seems too high to be true. The page doesn't give the source, but I wonder
if something like bioavailability got misinterpreted as composition.

~~~
valinor4
Wikipedia
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_Rouge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_Rouge))
states that "as arsenic can constitute up to 17% of some soil samples" and
references "Bausinger, Bonnaire, and Preuß, 2007".

I found this study ([https://hal-insu.archives-
ouvertes.fr/insu-01267232/document](https://hal-insu.archives-
ouvertes.fr/insu-01267232/document)) but I am afraid I don't know how to read
the results.

I assume that 17% is the absolute maximum proportion of arsenic ever found in
a single small sample.

~~~
tom_mellior
I don't really know how to read this either, but the number 17 as such does
not appear anywhere in that paper. This quote may be relevant: "Concentrations
of As vary between 72,820 and 1,937 mg/kg" (page 13).

These commas appear to be thousands separators, so that's a maximum of 73
grams per kilogram or 7% per mass of a soil sample. I'm not a doctor, but I
would advise against eating significant amounts of these soil samples.

~~~
jacquesm
I'm not a doctor either, but I would advise against eating soil altogether.

~~~
coldacid
Eh, it's good for building up the immune system.

------
jvkersch
Related: there are zones off the coast of Belgium and France that have been
used as ammunition dumps after the 1st world war. There's one such zone
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paardenmarkt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paardenmarkt))
that is close to a very busy shipping route and whose existence was forgotten
until the 70s, when people realized that they had 10000 tons of unexploded
chemical ammunition lying around just off the coast. In practice there's a
thick mud layer on top of the dumped ammo which keeps things stable, but if
e.g. a ship were to get stranded, this could cause extensive environmental
damage...

------
interfixus
Swedish historian Peter Englund, writing about French and Belgian WW1 front-
zones in the early nineties, claimed that the risk of tetanus-poisoning was
still highly elevated if you happened to cut yourself in such a place, and
that in damp weather the smell of rot decay was still discernible.

I always found that hard to credit, but the man is otherwise always sober in
reporting, so perhaps not.

~~~
mstade
I’d imagine the smell of decay is taking creative liberties with the truth.
Any damp forest will have a certain smell of decay to it, more likely due to
the fungus and rotting wood, than the smell of rotting bodies. That said, I’m
sure being in the area will amplify this, given the gravitas of the event. I
visited Normandy a couple of years ago and seeing the beaches, the American
cemetery, the bunkers... it was like a punch to the gut. I’d imagine going to
Verdun or Somme has a similar effect, even if you’re only slightly aware of
history.

------
dang
Discussed in 2015:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9609091](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9609091).

------
anovikov
In all of Eastern Russia, finding shell fragments, bullets, bayonets, helmets,
and human bones is quite common to this day. Almost every place was an area of
fighting of executions at some point in the last 100 years.

Countless millions of people were killed - not known even to the million
precision - in many wars and terror campaigns there during XX century.

------
dmichulke
Verdun and the 30 years war are to me symbols of what happens if you follow
people greedy people with an inflated ego.

In each case, there's were lot of red lines that threatened the "country's
honour" (read: the governments credibility), quite a few powerful factions
that were to gain of a war and somehow , partly with the help of those
factions and those read lines, it all spiraled out of control.

Not unlike what we see today with US (or NATO) vs Russia/Iran/Syria/NK and
China to a somewhat lesser extent.

------
madeuptempacct
>Pictured above is an artist’s impression of the forsaken territory,
originally covering more than 1,200 square kilometres (460 sq miles) in the
years following the Great War.

Yea, no, that's S.T.A.L.K.E.R. concept art.

~~~
duskwuff
The original appears to be a piece called "Fog" by Mac Rebisz:

[https://www.artstation.com/artwork/Dxk4E](https://www.artstation.com/artwork/Dxk4E)

It's been commonly used in web pieces about the Zone Rouge, but there doesn't
appear to be any real connection. (And some of the details of the piece make
no sense in that context, like the unburied corpse in the foreground or the
heavily armed figure on the left side.)

