
I Survived the “Destroying Angel” (2006) - rococode
http://blog.mycology.cornell.edu/2006/11/22/i-survived-the-destroying-angel/
======
dmitrybrant
I grew up in Russia, and like in many other Slavic cultures, mushroom foraging
was a time-honored family affair. Some of my fondest memories are of picking
mushrooms with my grandmother, who taught me all I know about identifying
them. I still forage them all the time here in the States.

I'm sorry, but it continues to baffle me how someone can mistake an Amanita
for a Coprinus (or Agaricus). To my eyes they're as different as a bottle of
milk and a bottle of Drano. I suppose I can see how very young specimens of
Amanita can resemble other varieties, but then you can follow a simple rule:
if it looks _remotely_ like a baby Amanita... don't take it! There are plenty
of other mushrooms that are virtually unmistakable.

And then the idea of not _double-checking_ what you foraged before cooking and
eating it? That's... unconscionable. I've been foraging for 30+ years, and I
still examine each individual specimen before putting it in the pot.

It's a shame because these kinds of stories create unnecessary fear in
Americans about picking things from the wild, when there are so many great
tastes and experiences right there at your fingertips.

~~~
peanutz454
> when there are so many great tastes and experiences right there at your
> fingertips.

As someone who has cooked with exactly one kind of mushroom (button) I find
this intriguing. I thought all mushrooms taste more or less the same. I may
have eaten something at a restaurant, but don't remember anything unique.

~~~
sharpneli
They taste wildly different. Just like not all fruits taste the same. Or all
veggies. Or all meat.

My personal favourite is Chanterelle. Yellowfoot is pretty great too.

~~~
greencore
It's the only kosher mushroom.

~~~
mrguyorama
Any way you can expand on this? What would make a mushroom non-kosher?

~~~
greencore
It has lowest change of having worms inside which are not kosher. Most other
mushrooms needs checking if it's not worm-eaten.

------
AlphaGeekZulu
Mushroom foraging was common in my family and the ruleset was quite simple –
we learnt this as children:

\- you have to know a mushroom, that you want to eat, by 100%. You not only
have to know the appearance in all possible states (young/old, colour
variations, environmental context) but also you have to know the lookalikes
and how to differentiate. The point here is: NEVER follow any generic rules
(like avoid mushrooms with this or that feature), but reliably identify the
type you want to eat!

\- to learn to absolutely positively identify a mushroom therefore takes a lot
of time. In my childhood I learnt about a dozen edible types, that I would
dare to eat. And this knowledge only applies to the geographic region I lived.
The same mushroom might have other lookalikes in other regions.

\- if there is the slightest doubt, do not eat it.

\- when picking, make plausibility checks. For example: does the sample fit to
the environment?

\- if you have trouble to differentiate a potentially edible mushroom from its
lookalike, avoid both.

\- if there is the slightest doubt, do not eat it.

\- as long as you are learning a new type, do not eat it. If you pick one to
examine at home, keep it separated from the others. Buy samples from the
market for comparison.

\- when you are sure that you have learnt a new edible type and that you can
absolutely identify it, pick one. Double check with the books, when at home.
Ask someone else for reassurance, if possible.

\- When still sure: prepare one very small sample together with the other
mushrooms and only for one member of the family (in my case, that would
usually be my father). Observe for reactions for at least 24 hours. If
everything is fine, repeat with a somewhat larger ratio the next time. Do so
one more time and if everything is still fine, that type would be approved for
family use. As a child, it was always a little exciting, not to say creepy,
when father tried a new type. But never anything happened of course.

\- Some mushrooms only become edible with certain preparation. Make sure to
know them. My family would usually avoid those.

\- if there is the slightest doubt, do not eat it.

~~~
saiya-jin
Yeah something along those lines, apart from testing new stuff (god knows how
long some toxins take to manifest or how strong they are, why risk life/health
for few bites). We knew around 10+ of types that grow around us and all their
variations, didn't touch anything else.

It is a wonderful activity, hike in dense forests for hours, coupled with
treasure hunt that you can eat afterwards (or dry for later). Great for kids
too.

The thing is, when I moved to Switzerland, the amount and types of mushrooms
changed dramatically, for the worse in this case. Alps around here seem to be
pretty desolate place, and of those mushrooms I can find most are not known to
me, so big no-no. Funny how things can change dramatically when you move only
1500km.

The worst people are those that collect all mushrooms they see and then they
study them at home. We used to make fun of big city dwellers for this. But
this approach is dangerous - not only is there unnecessary destruction to
beautiful fungus that will be just thrown away, but also eating something that
was touching / has bits of death cap on it cap ain't the brightest idea. Plus
without expertise, many edible mushroom might look very similar to dangerous
ones.

One of the reasons I never dared to pick up magic mushrooms in the wilderness
- they are too similar to some poisonous ones back home. Not worth the risk,
not unless I would know all variations of them by heart.

~~~
AlphaGeekZulu
"[...]apart from testing new stuff (god knows how long some toxins take to
manifest or how strong they are, why risk life/health for few bites).[...]"

In our case, the procedure - of course - was not to approve the edibility of
an unknown type of mushroom, but to approve the reliability of our
identification of a well known and documented type. Somewhat over-cautious
maybe, but better so.

"[...]It is a wonderful activity, hike in dense forests for hours, coupled
with treasure hunt that you can eat afterwards (or dry for later). Great for
kids too.[...]"

Yes! I miss it a lot. Mushroom foraging came to a complete halt after the
Chernobyl desaster.

"[...]The worst people are those that collect all mushrooms they see and then
they study them at home.[...]"

Or that would rip the mushrooms from the ground instead of cutting them
properly...

------
rectangletangle
Although it's not quite the same thing, this reminds me a bit of amnesic
shellfish poisoning. In addition to all the terrible gastric problems ASP has
the curious side-effect of severe permanent anterograde amnesia, where all
memories before the incident are retrained, but the poisoned individual can't
create new long term memories. So they're limited to working memory which only
lasts a few seconds.

However research has shown that some specific types of long term memories can
be still be made. For instance if an amnesiac individual is asked to draw the
same image repeatedly, they may still improve in speed and efficiency without
any apparent conscious memory of having drawn the image before.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amnesic_shellfish_poisoning](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amnesic_shellfish_poisoning)

~~~
taneq
Well you can add that to my list of horrifying potential outcomes of being
human.

> For instance if an amnesiac individual is asked to draw the same image
> repeatedly, they may still improve in speed and efficiency without any
> conscious memory of drawing the image.

So it's basically a human version of cache timing attacks. O.o

~~~
rectangletangle
>Well you can add that to my list of horrifying potential outcomes of being
human.

Pretty much, fortunately it's very rare. However you shouldn't eat sport
caught shellfish without first checking for local warnings regarding harmful
algal blooms.

At least in the US/Canada all store bought Seafood is thoroughly screened for
this specific problem, because ASP was discovered in Canada after a mass
poisoning event in the late 1980s.

Alfred Hitchcock's film The Birds was loosely based on an invasion of tens of
thousands of delirious seabirds thought to be suffering with ASP in Santa Cruz
in 1961.

------
catalogia
> _" With early diagnosis, another experimental treatment includes massive
> doses of penicillin to stimulate the liver’s defenses."_

The solution to fungus is... more fungus! Really goes to show the incredible
breadth of this form of life.

~~~
thaumasiotes
How so? This is pretty much the same idea as an Irish petty king inviting in
some Norman troops to show the other petty kings who's boss. (It turned out to
be the Normans, of course.)

Penicillin works by killing other similar things.

~~~
catalogia
Some mushrooms kill you, others save your life, and yet others expand your
mind. It's subjective, but I consider it incredible.

~~~
Scoundreller
In other words, they're all edible. But some of them only once.

~~~
workmandan
Edible does not mean "can physically be eaten" it means "is safe to eat". So
no, poisonous mushrooms are not edible.

------
ridaj
In France, you can bring your wild mushrooms to any local pharmacy, and they
will ID them for you as a free service. Seems like it would be a useful
service to US foragers too!

~~~
mizzao
How do all these pharmacists get trained in mushroom identification?

~~~
ridaj
It's part of the curriculum. The most important thing for them though is to
focus on mushrooms in their region not having encyclopedic knowledge... Still,
some will refuse to provide this service if they don't feel confident.

------
jimueller
Sorry, but this is just so irresponsible. I'm sure I'll be corrected, but it
almost needlessly resulted in taking a liver away from someone that needed it
not as a result of their own stupidity. Oh, and then while in an emergency
room on the brink of death questions why the alternative medicine some friend
found online was never used.

~~~
gatherhunterer
The ending almost reads like satire. He was picturing a happy, smiling liver
and wonders whether it was that positive visualization or the massive doses of
penicillin that did the trick? It’s like something from the Onion.

~~~
Enginerrrd
To be fair, I've watched a lot of people on the brink of death. (I was a
paramedic for a time.) You could often tell the ones that would die despite
very similar presentation to one's that would live. The difference was the
ones that would live had fight in their eyes. You see that too with folks
waiting for a loved one to get there before they die. They can push it back
for hours or even days if they've got the fight to do it. They even teach that
to rescuers in search and rescue: often people that have hung in for days
fighting to survive see their rescue and then they relax and start going
downhill fast.

Long story short, there definitely is something to your mental game in a
situation like this.

It's a smaller effect than the others, but it's there.

~~~
justanotherjoe
Do you have anything i can read on the rescue stuff? This all might come in
handy for when I'm dying one day.

~~~
divbyzer0
May not be the same thing, but afterdrop is an issue with rescued drowning
victims which can lead to Circum-Rescue Collapse which can lead to cardiac
arrest.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afterdrop](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afterdrop)

I'm not sure if there is consensus on this but the adivce I was given for
rescue scenarios is to keep the patient tense. Raising voice at them,
increasing stress, telling them they are still in danger and need to keep
fighting.

------
daveslash
I grew up _deep_ in the woods. Like any good mother, mine was a little over-
protective; I was instructed to not even _touch_ _any_ mushrooms (or other
fungus). Period. But if I did touch them, to wash my hands as soon as
possible. To this day, I generally leave them alone. If I do pick one up while
on a hike, I'll generally wash my hands with whatever drinking water I have on
me.

~~~
cm2012
No mushroom exists in the world that can poison you through touching it. Even
licking. Your body has to digest it.

Edit: I'm currently at -5 but this is a fact.

[http://www.botany.hawaii.edu/faculty/wong/BOT135/Lect17a.htm](http://www.botany.hawaii.edu/faculty/wong/BOT135/Lect17a.htm)

[http://www.mushroomexpert.com/studying.html#odortaste](http://www.mushroomexpert.com/studying.html#odortaste)

[https://www.reddit.com/r/mycology/comments/2ps3q5/are_there_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/mycology/comments/2ps3q5/are_there_any_mushrooms_that_are_dangerous_to/)

~~~
kwasson
There is one mushroom called the Poison Fire Coral that can poison through
touch. It just made the news rounds for being found for the first time in
North Queensland.

[https://www.jcu.edu.au/news/releases/2019/october/deadly-
fun...](https://www.jcu.edu.au/news/releases/2019/october/deadly-fungus-found-
in-far-north-queenslan)

~~~
cm2012
Cool, so there is an exception of 1!

“If found, the fungus should not be touched, and definitely not eaten. Of the
hundred or so toxic mushrooms that are known to researchers, this is the only
one in which the toxins can be absorbed through the skin,” said Dr Barrett, a
mycologist from the JCU Australian Tropical Herbarium (ATH) who specialises in
the study of fungi.

------
gbronner
I'm curious if parents still admonish their kids not to eat wild mushrooms.

The first time I was with a family friend and watched him pick and eat wild
mushrooms, it was as if I'd discovered a new strain of magic.

Today, I'll eat chicken mushrooms if they look exactly like the ones I've seen
before. Otherwise I'll pass.

I sort of feel like those killer whales that have to be taught by other whales
that fish are food, as their pod specialized in seals or penguins.

~~~
egdod
> I'm curious if parents still admonish their kids not to eat wild mushrooms.

Absolutely. Really, eating anything you find in the wild is risky unless
you’re completely sure what it is. (Wild strawberries are pretty easy to
identify, for example.)

~~~
zipwitch
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mock_strawberry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mock_strawberry)

They fooled me once. I picked and ate one, noticed it didn't taste right
almost immediately. Once you look more closely, the fruit is quite obviously
different in shape and texture, but the leaves are near-perfect and the fruit
is the right color.

It certainly gave me a quick and fortunately danger-free reminder that there's
a world of difference between "hey that looks like..." and "yes, after careful
examination, this is...".

~~~
girvo
Did it taste any good on its own behalf? What a neat plant!

~~~
liability
I used to hunt for these for fun when I was a kid. They taste plantish,
nothing like real strawberries. But when you're bored and locked outside to
keep you away from screens, they're fun to pick.

------
ayakura
When I was younger, I was taught not to pick up or eat colorful mushrooms -
the more colors they had, the deadlier they were, supposedly. At the time, I
thought it made sense as the same rule applied for poisonous frogs.

After reading the article and looking at Wikipedia's list of deadly fungus
species, I'm not so sure if that rule also applies to mushrooms:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deadly_fungus_species](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deadly_fungus_species)

~~~
throwaway2048
There are essentially no general hard and fast rules like that when it comes
to mushroom hunting, there is no substitute for knowing how to positively
identify specific species, where specific species should be growing, and
knowing what distinguishes them from similar poisonous species.

~~~
dmurray
I don't see why this could possibly get downvoted, it's absolutely true. If
you do have a "hard and fast" rule in mind, it may work in your region but not
in other places.

~~~
DuskStar
Besides the trivial rule of "pick no mushrooms", of course.

------
nlh
Can someone give me a quick explainer on why it’s appealing to pick & eat ANY
mushrooms in the wild at all? I’m probably just a dumb “city kid”, but I don’t
see the appeal whatsoever.

I’d love to get some perspective on why folks enjoy this.

~~~
tsimionescu
As a city kid who likes doing this, there are two aspects for me.

One is simply the game of going through the forest and carefully scanning the
ground, looking at bunches of leaves - is that just leaves? Or a young
mushroom just coming out? Then, when you do find a mushroom, checking if it's
firm and good to eat, enjoying the alien aspect of the thing etc.

The other aspect is the wonderful taste of these. In my country we have
porcini and chanterelle mushrooms in the wild, and finding some makes for an
absolutely delicious breakfast the next day. You usually can't get fresh
forest mushrooms any other way here, and in the rare occasions that you do
find them, they are extremely expensive.

~~~
marvin
Morels are absolutely scrumptious. My partner and I buy them dried for $20 a
meal in France, but it would be cool to be able to pick then in the woods :)

------
AceJohnny2
For a more positive outlook on why people get enthusiastic about mushrooms, I
recommend the amazing book "All That The Rain Promises And More...", which has
probably the best cover of a non-fiction book I've ever seen:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_That_the_Rain_Promises_and...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_That_the_Rain_Promises_and_More..).

~~~
barbs
The link is missing a period at the end (should be
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_That_the_Rain_Promises_and...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_That_the_Rain_Promises_and_More...))

------
alistproducer2
Unless im in a cow field and looking for a certain easily identifiable party
mushroom, I leave the mushroom foraging to the experts.

------
dekhn
Almost every year, I read an article about a family (usually from Eastern
Europe) that was picking mushrooms and misidentified an amanita as somethign
they recognized from their home country. THey usually end up at UCSF (world-
class transplants) and it's typically the kids who are affected the most.

~~~
emmelaich
That happens here in Australia.

What looks very much like an edible mushroom from Asia or elsewhere can be
poisonous.

And vice versa.

------
martingoodson
If anyone wants to start eating wild mushrooms and doesn't want to poison
themselves I recommend this approach:

1\. Choose one edible mushroom species that is often found in your region and
is difficult to mis-identify (ceps, giant puffballs, beefsteak, field
mushrooms etc)

2\. Get to know this species inside out and learn which species look similar
to it, especially any poisonous species. Learn the visual differences.

3.Learn the diagnostic tests (spore prints, smell tests, color changes on
bruising).

4\. Go mushroom picking!

5\. Don't eat anything until you've picked this species so many times that you
have become expert in identifying it.

6\. Start learning about a new species and repeat.

------
jpuderer
I am surprised this mistake is possible. Inky caps don't look anything like
Amanitas of any kind, IMO.

I am assuming that the author doesn't drink alcohol, otherwise Inky Caps
aren't so great either (though not generally fatal).

~~~
amatecha
They look a lot more similar when they are a bit earlier in the life cycle, I
think

------
supernova87a
The thing that was most frustrating for me to read was the 30 minute wait at
the hospital to even be registered and diagnosed. (in the critical -- I assume
-- first hours when the thing is making it's way into your bloodstream)

In a situation like that, I like to tell myself at least, I would loudly and
firmly say, "I've been poisoned, time is of the essence, can you please stop
what you're doing and help me, this is urgent!"

~~~
9nGQluzmnq3M
There is no antidote for Amanita poisoning, so treatment is entirely
supportive. Drinking that liter of charcoal 30 min earlier would not have made
a perceptible difference, given that the author's body was already busy
expelling at both ends.

Personally I was more astonished that it took him over five hours after the
symptoms started to get himself medical attention, _even though he himself
realized it was likely Amanita poisoning_!

------
hc91
The author seems highly irresponsible. You don't just play around with
mushrooms that you pick yourself from the woods - and you especially not cook
/ eat them, without double / triple checking them. When you are in doubt - you
simply avoid eating them and taking risks. What happened to him is 100% his
fault and was easily avoidable, I cannot have sympathy for that.

------
AceJohnny2
While everyone's commenting about how foolish the author was with his choices,
I think the main point point is that this is a very well written chronicle of
facing certain but not immediate death and what that feels like, down to the
minutiae at the hospital.

------
wsc981
Not directly related but mushroom-guru Paul Stamets recommends against eating
Portobello mushrooms or -if you eat them- at least cook them very very well.
Paul doesn't dare to go into too many details regarding this mushroom though:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPqWstVnRjQ&t=6300s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPqWstVnRjQ&t=6300s)

Also, Enoki mushrooms should prevent some cancers as was seen in Japan:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPqWstVnRjQ&t=6495s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPqWstVnRjQ&t=6495s)

------
dannykwells
Is there an app for mushroom ID? Seems like a no brainer now-a-days. Foraging
is coming back with the kids. Could probably raise 80M from it, especially if
you invent a social networking aspect around foraging.

~~~
Grangar
Would you really want people to blindly trust that? Like the posted article
image recognition might falsely consider a deadly mushroom to be harmless,
suddenly you've got potential deaths on your hands.

------
JohnJamesRambo
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amatoxin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amatoxin)

Amatoxins are one of my favorite chemical structures, so beautiful.

~~~
teh_klev
Genuine question, why so?

~~~
JohnJamesRambo
Just the beauty of the circle arrangement and then boom plops the Tryptophan
down right in the middle and links both sides.

------
dugditches
If you're ever uncertain of a mushroom you can take a spore print to help. Say
you have some in your yard and worried about a pet or child.

It's very vague sometimes trying to identify a 'typical' looking mushroom.

But if you just place the cap on a piece of paper, and cover it overnight
you'll be left with a sporeprint(think like a mushroom finger print).

The color can help you narrow down a vague search.

------
anyfoo
Huh:

"I mistook them for inky caps [...] even though I spotted an Amanita nearby
[...] I should have been more suspicious as mushrooms do grow in colonies."

"I couldn’t find my Mushroom book, was in a hurry, so I trusted my judgment,
fried them up in olive oil, and ate them as a side dish."

"I should have recognized then that they weren’t inky caps, because inky caps
exude a black substance when you fry them."

"At that point, I got concerned. I covered it up by saying, “I’m OK, I know
what I’m doing and I don’t feel sick.”"

That's... a lot of interesting decisions, for something potentially so deadly.
Had I known this person afterwards, I think I might have politely declined any
dinner invitations.

~~~
arkades
I found interesting that he closes his post with an excerpt about how safe
mushroom picking is, and how adverse outcomes only happen to ignorant fools
who know nothing about mushrooms and don’t bother learning.

In an article that opens with “here is a list of things I know and books I
read, and here’s how I poisoned myself anyway.”

~~~
fortran77
And instead of thanking the doctors for their heroic effort, he credits his
woo-woo "visualization" techniques.

~~~
Thorrez
That was in the section wondering why he survived but the other 2 people in
the same hospital didn't. Would those 2 people have gotten different doctors
or gotten less effort from the doctors?

~~~
tapland
"I found out that of three people admitted in 2006 to Strong Memorial with
Amanita poisoning, I am the only one to have survived; 66% died."

The death rate for Mushroom Poisoning in the US was apparently something like
2.9 per year since year 2000.

He's really just discounting the 99.something% who survive for effect because
two died in the hospital he was at. If that is even true.

~~~
catalogia
> _" the 99.something% who survive"_

For this mushroom, it's certainly worse than that. It seems likely to me
somebody quoted him the "without medical attention" survival rate.

> _" Mushroom poisoning is more common in Europe than in America.[71] Up to
> the mid-20th century, the mortality rate was around 60–70%, but this has
> been greatly reduced with advances in medical care. A review of death cap
> poisoning throughout Europe from 1971 to 1980 found the overall mortality
> rate to be 22.4% (51.3% in children under ten and 16.5% in those older than
> ten).[72] This has fallen further in more recent surveys to around
> 10–15%.[73]"_

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amanita_phalloides#Similarity_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amanita_phalloides#Similarity_to_edible_species)

~~~
tapland
That doesn't change the point that he ended up in the same hospital that by
chase had >2/3 of the total number of related deaths in the country.

The people dying was the outlier

------
cm2012
I recommend /r/mycology for all your mushroom identification needs.

------
hcarvalhoalves
> I found out that of three people admitted in 2006 to Strong Memorial with
> Amanita poisoning (...)

Three people poisoning themselves in the span of one year in a particular
region sounds like _a lot_.

~~~
linuskendall
Where I am from (Sweden) many, many people make mushroom picking a regular
habit. However, most who do are aware of what mushrooms are safe, which ones
to take extra care in identifying (definitely all white ones) and which ones
to never pick. Wild mushrooms are perfectly safe as long as you have some
knowledge about it. We were taught by parents and on school trips.

~~~
klipt
Provided you don't assume that knowledge that works in Sweden works anywhere
else in the world.

~~~
alkonaut
It doesn't - which is why a lot of people get sick in Sweden every year and
it's heavily skewed to people who aren't Swedish. I'm not sure if it's because
they lack knowledge entirely, or because the knowledge they had didn't
transfer.

Few swedes would pick a white mushroom at all, and most would know that it at
least shouldn't be white both on top and underneath because that's deadly.

~~~
cc81
That fits me, I just wrote a comment saying that while I feel very comfortable
picking the standard 2-4 mushrooms in Sweden I would never try and pick a
white one even if know we have some edible species.

------
pvaldes
Confusing Coprinus and Amanita is like confusing a zebra with a jiraffe.
Totally different textures

------
kbos87
> “ The thought that these guys might be trying to get my liver for someone
> else did cross my mind. I let it go.”

...but the thought that carelessness on your part may mean you take a liver
from someone waiting for a long time on the transplant list didn’t?

------
rkachowski
The author seems to have an encyclopedic knowledge of the bible (referencing
individual psalms by number), wears a cross around his neck to hospital,
practises all kinds of eastern religious meditations (recommends "Awaken the
Healing Light of the Tao" in the midst of describing himself in a diaper on a
CAT scan machine). On top of this he works as a particle accelerator operator
at cornell. And still eats some of the mushrooms he previously identified as
growing next to some clearly poisonous mushroom colony.

At the end of the article he questions whether it was an act of god or
meditation that saved him, yet concludes that realistically it was not taking
the time to identify the mushrooms correctly which caused the whole process.
Yet starts the article with the comment that he was somehow in an altered
mental state from a "Aligning the Three Tan Tiens" exercise which left him
feeling invincible. Surely if you belive that god or meditation was the cure,
you would have to believe that they could also be the cause - especially in
this case when you're doing the "nothing can kill me" meditation before
picking mushrooms.

It's a weird half baked half-rational half-esoteric thought process that
staggers me. Religion and science are always a controversial mix, but this is
an extreme example.

~~~
Udo
I know it's maybe even the norm, but I can't get my head around this
disconnect between doing deep scientific work on the one hand and having such
a profoundly mystical world view that seems to sometimes eschew rational
reflections on cause-and-effect.

 _> Why did I live and the rest not live?_

There are many factors at play. Among those not listed by the author are: age,
genetics and biochemical happenstances, and pure random luck. Yet, the
question seems to angle for a deeper meaning, as if to evoke the intent of a
higher power who lets people live or die for personal or moral reasons.

 _> Was it the amount of toxin? Was it that I knew what had happened to me and
sought care and help quickly?_

Yes.

 _> Was it my meditation/visualization and somatic self care/self help
practice?_

It's been shown that a patient's determination and outlooks do have a
noticeable effect on their outcome, so your mental framework may very well
have helped here for reasons that are not related to specific practices
themselves, but because they have a positive effect on your attitude.

 _> Was it the prayers of my friends and family and my faith?_

No. And I would object to this even if I was a religious person. The idea that
an all-powerful and infinetely wise entity, who decided on the fate of the
entire universe well in advance, would change their mind and let someone live
on account of the amount of fawning being performed on behalf of that person -
that idea is both intellectually _and_ theologically bankrupt.

 _> Was it the doctors’ care? One of them said it was a miracle!_

Yes, it was the doctors' care, which was most likely necessary to save you.
Using a throwaway utterance like this as evidence in support of a miracle-
based world view seems self-deceiving.

If we're going to assign miracle status to improbable events, it should
probably not be those that fall within the 20-50% range. The most
disconcerting thing is that we would expect someone whose work involves
particle physics to have a better grasp of probabilities, but I think once a
person subscribes to the idea of a personalized universe that cares about the
conduct of individual humans, a whole different set of rules suddenly comes
into play.

~~~
SuoDuanDao
On the subject of 'prayers from friends and family' being an intellectually
and theologically bankrupt theory, here's a meta-study on the phenomenon.

[https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Cindy_Crawford/publicat...](https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Cindy_Crawford/publication/10735353_A_systematic_review_of_the_quality_of_research_on_hands-
on_and_distance_healing_Clinical_and_laboratory_studies/links/563d12a108ae34e98c4ad363/A-systematic-
review-of-the-quality-of-research-on-hands-on-and-distance-healing-Clinical-
and-laboratory-studies.pdf)

~~~
Udo
That doesn't address my criticism of the premise. I chose to critique the
assertions made of _why_ prayer helps. You address the question of _whether_
it helps. It's one of these "distance healing" prayer studies, and a meta-
study at that. If you dig down into any of these data sources, you will find
plenty of wishful thinking is involved in the design of the individual
studies.

But again, whether you believe that it works or not, I wanted to move the
discussion to address the claims of _why_ it supposedly works. What I mean by
"bankrupt" is the idea that people believe there is an omniscient
superintelligence who actively controls the universe on a micro level and
takes a direct interest in your personal life choices, who at the same time
can be made to change its mind whenever enough people get together to praise
it in a transparent attempt to beg for someone's life.

Even putting aside the obvious scientific problems with this concept, I call
it also theologically bankrupt because - while it's not _completely_
inconceivable that the universe works like that - it still flies in the face
of what most religions portray their deities as.

~~~
hajile
There seems to be a deep misunderstanding of religion here.

"Prayer is the opening of the heart to God as to a friend. Not that it is
necessary in order to make known to God what we are, but in order to enable us
to receive Him. Prayer does not bring God down to us, but brings us up to Him"

Just before giving His disciples the Lord's Prayer in the New Testament, Jesus
says, "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they
think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore
like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye
ask him."

Then the prayer itself follows up saying, "After this manner therefore pray
ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.Thy kingdom come. Thy
will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into
temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power,
and the glory, for ever. Amen."

There's a lot of philosophy tied up in all of that (even for non-Christians).
Most people who win the lottery go bankrupt in short order. If you aren't
ready for a good thing, it can be destructive. Prayer is an acceptance that
God knows what is best for the universe. It helps the person praying to become
"in tune" with God's plan and accept that plan no matter if it is personally
costly.

As you can see, "Begging for someone's life" is a very different mindset. The
change in mindset from prayer's self-reflection can instill a positive outlook
which improves medical outcomes. If the outcome is terminal, that same self-
reflection can help a person reach acceptance and turn their remaining time
into a more positive experience (and help with their loved ones after they
have passed away).

That is all true _even if there were nobody listening_ because they believe it
to be true.

~~~
Udo
It's true that I lack a good understanding of religious thinking, thank you
for helping out there.

 _> That is all true even if there were nobody listening because they believe
it to be true._

I absolutely agree, whatever contributes to the patient's positive attitude
helps. As does the involvement of friends and family. This is why I felt that
I shouldn't criticize the perception of the overall effect so much, because I
do agree that there is a positive mechanism at work here.

It is with the metaphysical aspects themselves where I have trouble, and in a
sense that's how this whole thread got started because it seems a stark
contradiction.

But coming back to your explanation, I agree, if your god wants to see signs
of compliance from you and your social circle, it does stand to reason that
people would believe this would cause him to intercede in the universe's
processes in order to spare your life when he would not have seen the
necessity to do so before.

SuoDuanDao's point then was that the idea that your god would change his mind
on account of prayers is not theologically bankrupt (in hindsight this was a
very poor choice of words by me) because it _works_. My thesis however, was
that even _if_ prayer works that doesn't mean the specific reasoning behind it
is automatically valid.

