
Why Germany Educates International Students for Free - imartin2k
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/04/27/germany-sees-benefits-educating-international-students-free
======
anon_7523
My personal experience says, that it is not working out. I cannot tell for the
whole country, but I do have some insights, since I am hiring and interviewing
students and studied in one of the universities mentioned elsewhere in the
thread. There is an English speaking Master program, consisting almost
entirely of Pakistani and Indian students. Some facts about them:

\- They are not required to learn German, so they speak very little to
sometimes none at all. \- They can only pick companies where speaking only
English is tolerated. \- Since they speak English, they tend to stick to
themselves and cannot integrate. Some of them have a hard time even ordering
food. \- Indian Bachelor degrees are not comparable to German degrees. I have
the feeling that there are some good universities, but others are nowhere near
the German standard. Their skill levels are usually lower than these of their
German counterparts. It makes sense: I have talked to people, who came from a
small village and used a computer in their undergraduate course for the first
time. \- When you talk about their plans, it becomes clear, that they aimed
for the US or the UK and took Germany only for the price and are often not
planning to stay, but to take the next opportunity to board a plane to the US.

At the moment I do not think it makes any economical sense for Germany. I
would do the following:

\- mandatory German language courses \- mandatory German language knowledge,
even for English speaking courses \- much stricter admission standards,
individual tests instead of trusting non-EU standards \- better integration
with the labor market \- maximum to the number of months you can stay in a
dorm (already the case for German students) \- initiatives to form German +
foreign flat shares (primary way of living for students in Germany)

At the moment we are just sending the bad students back home and the good
students to the US, after they got a free education here.

The local university close by reacted and increased the required GRE test
scores to Ivy League level. The admissions dropped by an order of magnitude.

Germany is very social-democratic when it comes to education, so politicians
avoid the word "elite", but when it comes to picking talent, you really should
not. I think Germany should capitalize on the political climate in other
countries and pick quality over quantity. A tax paid university should not be
a third-world aid program.

~~~
discordianfish
This comment is so German on so many levels.

The reason those people aim for jobs in the UK or US is because there aren't
good tech jobs in Germany. Arguing for mandatory German classes to 'lock in'
talent somehow is simiarly uninspired as tech companies here. What about
creating jobs that good people are willing to work at?

~~~
ed_balls
If you'd double my salary I still wouldn't move to Germany. Learning a new
language is too big investment.

~~~
jernfrost
I can't speak for Germany, but e.g. in Norway and the Netherlands which I know
best, there are a lot of nice tech jobs and you don't have to speak a word of
the native language. I know because I've had colleagues over a decade who
don't speak the native language and who are still just fine.

Most tech companies today use english as work language anyway. Not necessarily
social talk among people, but usually in meetings, emails, documentation etc.

Still I recommend learning the local language. It has advantages but it is not
something you are completely dependent on.

~~~
ed_balls
You can survive sure, but I'd be really hard and expensive to start a company.
How am I suppose to read german law and fill government forms? Have a lawyer
to everything for me? Thanks no thanks.

~~~
fbender
You'll have a hard time starting a company or anything without consulting a
lawyer or legal service in Germany. And you won't be taken seriously e.g. by
banks etc. Fortunately, cost for legal advice on this matter is significantly
less than in the US, AFAIK. Plus, you have the bonus of being able to do
business in 27+ countries with marginal or no extra effort.

~~~
ed_balls
In that case I'd prefer to start a company in Poland. Much lower taxes, cost
of infrastructure, legal, labour, capital requirement for LTD (25000 EUR vs
1200 EUR).

------
sparkling
The article is wrong on so many ways.

The author states that foreign students _plan_ on staying in Germany, however
that is not what is actually happening. 41% of students abandon their studies
before they have a degree. Out of the students that finish their degree, only
36% remain in Germany. Out of those remaining, more than half of them need
more than 1 year(!) to land a job, indicating that they may not have the best
grades or skills.

Furthermore, many seem to assume that Germany somehow needs to offer this tax
payer subsidized "free" university program to attract foreign students to fill
shortages in the workforce. This is not the case. First, despite constant
media reports saying otherwise, there is no major talent shortage expect in
very few niches. Second, any EU-citizen (thats 600+ million people outside of
Germany) can work in Germany without any permission required. Third, for non-
EU citizens there already is a visa program (the "blue card") that allows them
to work in the EU if they are qualified, e.g. have a Masters degree from their
home country.

In summary: German tax payers are asked to fund the education of foreigners at
little to no return. Given the "free" nature of the program, it attracts
rather unqualified students (or, lets say at least not the top notch).

All this may sound harsh but it is simply not the job of German tax payers to
provide some sort of indirect third-world aid to middle/upper-class students
from foreign countries.

~~~
fauigerzigerk
_> First, despite constant media reports saying otherwise, there is no major
talent shortage expect in very few niches._

"Shortage" is not the right frame of refrence here, because it implies a
fixed-size pie. Having an educated population tends to grow the pie for
everyone (on average over a longer observation period).

It's not like there is a fixed number of jobs mined from the soil of each
country. This sort of flawed thinking is at the core of most "immigrants are
taking our jobs" sort of fears.

~~~
biswaroop
>It's not like there is a fixed number of jobs mined from the soil of each
country.

This is so true. It applies to any system with competition. People tend to
treat things like jobs and startups like natural resources, and tend to assume
that competition is necessarily bad. In reality, feedback processes and strong
interactions between players turn economies into highly unpredictable emergent
phenomena. It's more like a flock of geese than an elementary chemical
reaction.

For such large systems, it's hard to tell what the Nash equilibrium is, and
whether it matches with the optimum global outcome. Animals (especially
humans) have evolved to cooperate well in small groups (e.g. tribes,
families). Over larger scales (e.g. countries, between language families), we
have a strange balance between distrust, competition, and compassion.

------
MarkMc
If you are a young person living in a poor country, the two best investments
you can make to improve your standard of living are (a) get a university
education; and (b) immigrate to a rich country.

Germany offers both:

1\. A free undergraduate university degree

2\. For every graduate: 18 month work visa after graduation

3\. For every STEM graduate who earns more than EUR 40,000 per year: approval
to work in Germany forever (ie. a 'blue card')

Yes, you must first learn German, have good high school grades and be able to
borrow EUR 9,000 to apply for the student visa. But for millions of people
living in third-world countries that is achievable and a great investment
given the enormous returns on offer.

So why isn't Germany flooded with foreign university students?

~~~
paganel
> Yes, you must first learn German,

Maybe because of this?

> be able to borrow EUR 9,000 to apply for the student visa

Also, this. 9,000 euros does not seem like too much for people from first-
world countries, but for people coming from relatively speaking much poorer
countries that sum is quite high.

~~~
cagataygurturk
Why learning German is a big issue? These are young people who can learn a
language easily and in the beginning nobody expects you so high proficiency
and people will always help and encourage you to learn the language. In Europe
many educated folks know min 2 languages more and very open to learn more, you
just need to leave your comfort zone. Learning languages also develops
intellectually.

~~~
paganel
> In Europe many educated folks know min 2 languages more and very open to
> learn more

Am Eastern-European, my mother tongue is a Romance language, I speak and read
English, read and understand Italian, French and Spanish. German has proved
too much of a hurdle for me.

~~~
wolfgke
> Am Eastern-European, my mother tongue is a Romance language, I speak and
> read English, read and understand Italian, French and Spanish. German has
> proved too much of a hurdle for me.

Of course if you speak some Romance language natively, other Romance languages
will be a lot easier than a Germanic language as German. Here you should
rather compare German with a language from a different language family, such
as some Slavic language.

I (native German speaker) think that at least for English speakers French and
German are about equally hard. The main difference is that French has a
"smoother" learning curve, while German's grammar is really grueling at the
beginning (but this is also said of the Russian grammar).

What in my opinion many people don't get is learning German means learning the
unpleasant grammar (IMHO best by rote drill) inside out. Concentrating on the
vocabulary and getting the grammar later might work for other languages that
are less grammar-centric than German, but I can imagine German is very
confusing for non-native speakers, if they are not rather certain in the
grammar.

As soon as one is sufficiently certain in German's grammar (i.e. you don't
have to think about conjugation and declination anymore), the learning
experience will become much more pleasant, since in my opinion how words are
"built up from parts" (in German in particular prominently by juxtaposition)
is "in some sense much more logical and memorable" than how words are built in
English or Romance language. A rather funny take on this for German animal
names can be found under [https://www.babbel.com/en/magazine/funny-animal-
names-in-ger...](https://www.babbel.com/en/magazine/funny-animal-names-in-
german)

------
ilamont
For a point of comparison, the annual tuition prices for colleges in
Massachusetts:

[http://www.collegecalc.org/lists/massachusetts/most-
affordab...](http://www.collegecalc.org/lists/massachusetts/most-affordable-
in-state-tuition/?view=all)

Tufts, BC, BU, Olin, MIT, Northeastern, Brandeis all between 45k and 50k.
Harvard 41k. When room, board, and books are factored in it's a quarter
million dollars over four years.

Public colleges (Umass) are a lot cheaper but I've heard "fees" can run up to
10K a semester.

Lucrative for U.S. schools, ludicrous for students and families.

~~~
kough
Some of those schools are unlike the others. It makes absolute sense to go
$250k in debt for an MIT or Harvard degree, makes less but still some sense
for Tufts and Olin, and makes no sense at all for the rest. And the average
college that Americans experience is a 2 year community college; very, very
few attend schools of the caliber you're mentioning. It makes no sense to lump
all these different schools together when arguing for your position on tuition
prices and their effects on students and families.

~~~
alpha_squared
> It makes absolute sense to go $250k in debt for an MIT or Harvard degree

No it doesn't? I think we should stop putting schools on a pedestal because of
their name. I admire some of the research and work that comes out of those
schools, but in the end their degrees are no better or worse than other
schools' (regarding undergraduate, I can't speak for graduate).

The only differences come down to network and academic history. If you're
justifying that level of debt purely on those two criteria, then I understand
that's the value those things mean to you -- and that's okay. Personally,
that's not worth it to me. I'm not sure there's "absolute sense" here.

~~~
whack
There can be an "absolute sense" from a financial perspective. For better or
worse, having a degree from Harvard/Stanford/MIT can open a number of doors
that may be otherwise shut. Doors which can be very financially lucrative.

For example, suppose you want to work in finance/law. Most prestigious firms
place a very high premium on having a degree from a top university, and pay
extremely generously if you get your foot in the door. In these contexts, the
$250k investment on your college will easily pay for itself within 10 years.

Conversely, suppose you're trying to break into a field that's extremely hard
to crack (writing?). In such situations, you'll need every edge you can get,
and having a great network or an eye-catching degree in your resume can make
the difference between you getting a toe-hold and you calling it quits.

To be sure, it certainly is very context dependent. Getting a cheap Bachelor's
degree from a public university, and a Master's degree from a brand name
university, might be a good way to get the best of both worlds. In general
though, anyone who's smart enough to get admission into Harvard/Stanford is
likely going to make multiple millions of dollars over the course of their
lifetime. Given this baseline, investing 250k for a top-notch
education/network/resume certainly seems well worth it.

~~~
dalbasal
_Can_ and will pay off is not exactly the same thing. To break even on an
extra 100k within 10 years of graduating, the pre-tax premium on your salary
needs to $1.5k -$2k on gross monthly salary. I wouldn't call that a brilliant
investment even if it was a lot more certain than it is in reality.

But importantly, there are lot of potential loss scenarios. The student could
drop out, get sick at some point in the next 15 years. They could decide they
don't want to be a lawyer, get pregnant, go to jail. Anything that gets them
off a high earning path becomes a disaster with that kind of debt.

A debt burden like this taken on by young people seems to me to be
incompatible with the concept of free society. I can't understand how
Americans tolerate it. In most countries, I think the public outcry would be
too great.

~~~
whack
> _" To break even on an extra 100k within 10 years of graduating_"

Why are you limiting yourself to a 10 year window? The average career last 30+
years. Over a time period that long, it's much easier to recoup the initial
investment costs.

> _" The student could drop out... get pregnant, go to jail"_

Ironically, many of these dangers are much more likely to occur at non-elite
universities, due to peer-influence and peer-pressure. This is actually a
great reason to attend elite universities where you'll be ensconced in a
ivory-tower-bubble.

> _" A debt burden like this taken on by young people seems to me to be
> incompatible with the concept of free society."_

I guess you and I define freedom differently. A society where only the ultra-
wealthy attend elite universities, doesn't sound nearly as free to me.
Allowing extremely bright middle-class kids to invest $0.25M in their
education, so that they can optimize for their millions of dollars of lifetime
earnings, as well as get the education they've dreamed of, sounds perfectly
reasonable to me.

Would I prefer it if elite schools like Harvard weren't so damn expensive? Of
course. But the current situation still sounds far better than getting rid of
student loans entirely.

------
lispm
> Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

One thing to remember: That university education may not be that expensive
does not mean everybody is allowed to study. Universities often set high
barriers.

In Germany 27% of young adults get an university degree. OECD average is 40%.
It's not because Germans are more stupid, but because there are less students
allowed to enter University education. Also there are other means of advanced
education outside of traditional Universities. Many jobs base their education
on the dual education system.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_education_system](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_education_system)

~~~
markdown
That's interesting. Are there options for the 73% that don't go to Uni? Trade
schools?

What about at lower levels (ages 5-12)... do kids get to progress to the next
level regardless of performance in an annual exam (like the US "no child left
behind" policy), or do they have to have to repeat a year/level if they fail?

~~~
JanSt
Yes, nearly everyone in Germany either has a university degree or a so called
"Berufsausbildung". The Berufsausbildung is a specific training to do a
certain kind of occupation (craftsman, computer programmer, carpenter) and is
based on approximately 50% of schooling and 50% of hands-on work in a company.
It typically takes three years and usually you stay at that company as a
worker afterwards

~~~
markdown
Interesting. Thank you.

------
MichailP
While I think it is good for both Germany and students, it probably has a bit
of geopolitics mixed in. All those young people, if they return to their home
countries, will be naturally more oriented toward German products thus
indirectly making German economy stronger. I saw a similar theme in Russia,
where there is even a specialized university for this [1]

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoples%27_Friendship_Universi...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoples%27_Friendship_University_of_Russia)

~~~
woodpanel
Very odd statement to include economical geopolitics here. Do you really
believe that German companies lobbied each of the 16 German state-governments
to lure in foreign students just so they buy German stuff back at home?
Wouldn't it make more sense to influence foreigners directly with this thing
called "marketing"?

If you're Adidas, why the hell go through this hassle and conspire with << all
the other german companies >> to use the german education system as a proxy
for getting a little bit of good PR - not even for your product, just German
products in general.

If there's a geopolitical factor involved at all it's inter-cultural
relations, which for a country that ruined most of Europe once is a rather
good thing.

~~~
MichailP
Not just common consumer goods, but say, electrical engineer educated in
Germany would be inclined to use Siemens software and hardware, and he/she
would need to put extra effort to learn about alternatives.

------
captainmuon
The thing is, the fees discussed in Germany ( ~1000€ / semester) are no where
near covering the costs of a seat for one student. It's just a drop in the
ocean, so they might as well keep it free. And when tutition is free for
Germans, it seems wierd and discriminatory to take fees from foreigners. I
grew up in Germany, but don't have a German passport. Should I pay more? Where
do you draw the line?

I was studying when they introduced the tutition fees around 2006, and
protested against them. We strongly had the impression that it was never about
covering costs, but rather an "educating" measure: to teach students that
education has a monetary value, and so that they view themselves as customers.

In the US, people view their education usually as an investment on which they
expect return (from this thread, "It makes absolute sense to go $250k in debt
for an MIT or Harvard degree, makes less but still some sense for Tufts and
Olin, and makes no sense at all for the rest."). Some people view it that way
in Germany, too, but I think many others, like me, find that very strange. We
study mainly whatever we are talented at, and what we enjoy. Financial
considerations are made, but not the main driver.

I believe certain people find that mindset threatening or wrong, and work(ed)
actively against it. In Germany most notably neoliberal and
center/conservative think tanks, like Bertelsmann foundation. These
organisations lobbied for tutition fees, but also for the introduction of the
Bachelor+Master system, which is much more schoolish and streamlined than the
old Diplom/Magister system (which let you more freedom to study at your own
pace and according to our interests).

When I look at how the money from tutition fees was used, it didn't improve
teaching at all (which was the stated goal), but we got fancy new desks and
cashback for books (ridiculously). This reinforces my feeling that it was
driven by ideology and not by necessity.

~~~
sparkling
> when tutition is free for Germans, it seems wierd and discriminatory to take
> fees from foreigners

German citizens subsidize this "free" university with their taxes. This
includes low-level workers who have never visited a university. So essentially
you are asking poor people in Germany to pay for the education of middle-class
or rich people from other countries.

~~~
louithethrid
The poor dont pay much taxes in germany either. So its the middle class
supporting a open world view. And i found it quite enriching. Sorry, that
WYSIWYG doesent work with universitys, because you have by condition of
usefullness not yet seen what you get and can only afterward value it
apropriatly.

I love the german enducation system. In it great endavours may still be
possible.

------
aphextron
Should I study engineering in Germany?

I'm looking at undergrad programs in California right now and the numbers
don't add up for me. Not just tuition, but cost of living as a full time
student as well. I also feel like it would be much easier for me (a non-
traditional student) to get into a better university over there, as they
pretty much just look at your test scores. Not all this GPA/extra-curricular
"well rounded" stuff they do here. Do they provide many undergrad programs in
English? Are the degrees accredited in the US?

~~~
kriro
AFAIK only the GPA matters as you have said (it's called Numerus Clausus or NC
in Germany). If you look it up in a list, keep in mind that the German scale
and the US 4 point GPA scale are reversed. 4.0 is the worst passing grade here
and a 4.0 was an A+ at my US high school (I think there are different scales
in different states?).

For many degrees there's no GPA requirement at all. Engineering might very
well be one of the cases as it tends to be one of the "harder" degrees
(natural sciences, math, engineering etc.) and GPA requirements are mostly for
the "popular" ones like business, social sciences etc. Always depends how many
slots are available at a given university, too.

Also: if your GPA isn't good enough you can get on a list and "wait" a couple
of semesters and for each semester your GPA is virtually improved.

Note: that's how it works for German students but I'm pretty sure it's the
same for foreign students (but most will have a requirement of C1 or sometimes
B2 German skills). All universities have international offices that you can
contact though.

I think Germany is still very much considered an "engineering country". Career
wise it's probably going to be a very good thing to hold a German engineering
degree. The education is good and there's usually great contacts to
engineering companies. I'd be shocked if the degrees weren't accredited in the
US. If you can pick a university I'd go with a "TU" (Technische Universität).
Also note that we have two different kinds of universities. Universität =
"proper" university and Fachhochschule aka FH or Hochschule = university of
applied sciences...I'd stay away from these mostly because there's subtle
differences that will probably make it harder to have the degree accredited in
the US (and they are usually considered lower tier by employers as well).

University regulations differ on a state level so it might be wise to check
out different German states. If saving money is one of the focus points I'd
advise against Munich. RWTH Aachen is probably the best university in that
field, TU Dresden and TU Dortmund are relatively cheap from a cost of living
point of view and still good universities.

~~~
hengheng
Don't discount FHs, especially for engineering. With the right niche you can
out-earn almost every other graduate - say in chemical engineering, in some EE
niches or with economics degrees that focus on a particular industry.

Also, rents in Jena, Tübingen or Ilmenau are often on a Munich level, but you
can always find a few shortcuts (like living in Weimar and taking the train to
Jena).

Lastly, if the bachelor isn't meant to be your final degree it doesn't matter
as much where you got it.

------
gumby
One thing to consider is the very trade-focused nature of the degree.

My son is a German citizen, educated until high school in the German language,
but he enrolled in a US university. Why? The US system offers a broader
education at the undergraduate level. In fact there aren't undergraduate
medical or law degrees the way there are in Germany (where you graduate and
start practicing / start residency).

Honestly I think this distinction is part of a cluster of characteristics that
make the US more entrepreneurial than Germany(and why I'd rather drive a
German car than an American).

(This isn't an argument that one country is better than the other, just that
they've picked different local maxima on various issues. FWIW I'm not a
citizen of either).

~~~
aphextron
>Honestly I think this distinction is part of a cluster of characteristics
that make the US more entrepreneurial than Germany(and why I'd rather drive a
German car than an American).

There's a bit of trade off involved with this though. Not everyone is suited
for entrepreneurship, nor would a healthy economy encourage _most people_ to
become entrepreneurs. The stable middle class of highly trained, well paid
technical workers in Germany is precisely what the US needs right now. It
seems that both systems could benefit from each other's strengths. A liberal
education founded in general studies is valuable for many, but most people
will spend their lives working technical jobs.

~~~
gumby
But that's my point: people seem generally happy with the respective systems.
Americans by and large seem to like their system, but while I love _working_
in Silicon Valley it's pretty hard not to notice every day that it has a
pretty low quality of life versus other OECD countries. If people like it who
am I to complain?

------
TazeTSchnitzel
> in Germany, students -- on the whole -- famously pay no tuition fees,
> regardless of where they come from. Seen from the U.S. or Britain, this
> policy may appear either supremely principled or incredibly naïve

“Britain”? Do they perhaps mean England?

The other three nations of the United Kingdom have either free (Scotland) or
vastly cheaper (Wales, Northern Ireland) university tuition fees.

~~~
stable-point
I think the key part is "regardless of where they come from". For instance,
Scotland has free tuition for the Scottish and other EU citizens, but not for
citizens of England/Wales/NI or international students. (The fees for an
English person are typically cheaper than other English universities, but
still not to be sniffed at).

I am not sure about NI or Wales, but I imagine there's a similar situation.

~~~
ekr
Scotland and free tuition? I was thinking about a MSc in computer science at
the University of Edinburgh, and it's definitely not free, even for EU
citizens:
[http://www.ed.ac.uk/studying/postgraduate/fees?programme_cod...](http://www.ed.ac.uk/studying/postgraduate/fees?programme_code=PTMSCCMPSI1F).

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
That's a postgraduate course. I guess free tuition applies only to
undergraduates.

------
rodri_vera
The article has many points that are not correct. I was a foreign student who
did studienkolleg (preparatory university course), bachelor and master degrees
in German in Bavaria. In total, I spent 6 years in their educational system.

One thing to highlight is that German universities are very different to the
American system of small groups, interaction with students, labs, hand-
holding, etc. Traditional German education is one where you are not obliged to
go to classes and you only have one final exam at the end of the semester.
Some classes had up to 800 students. In other classes, we never got to see the
professor and we were taught by a PhD student. Nobody knew your name and you
were just another face, if you ever showed up to class. Thus, the marginal
cost of having an additional local or foreign student is minimum.

This system is not for everyone and given that my classes were all in German,
it was very challenging. University-level German (vocabulary, idioms, etc) is
very different from the one you learn at the Sprachkurs. Most foreign students
dropped out and went back home. This is also accentuated by the fact that if
you fail an exam 3 times, you are expelled from the university and you are
banned from studying that study field for life across all German universities.

Moreover, German universities do not have their own sport facilities and
luxurious campuses as their American counterparts. Normally, for sports, there
is a shared facility for all local universities and you pay an extra semester
ticket to have access. The average German university has old facilities and no
luxuries. Thus, the cost base is completely different to universities in the
US.

Back then, we were told that Germany offers education to foreigners to foster
relations with foreign countries. If we foreigners study in Germany and are
shaped the German way, once we go home, not only we will be well qualified,
but also we will be keen to establish business relations with German
companies.

During my study times, around 2006, they introduced at my university fees for
everyone. The idea was not popular and it was not covering the cost of
education. The idea did not last long. Some years later it went back to be
free for everyone. German universities are very left-leaning and in the German
society there is a wide consensus that university education should be free for
all.

The CDU and FDP, two political parties on the right spectrum, constantly push
the idea of charging foreign students to help finance public education, but
the idea has never gotten any type of support in the society.

------
FredrikMeyer
It is the same situation in Norway. International students pay no tuition (and
we have the same debate here whether to continue this situation...).

On the other hand, living costs in Norway are quite high.

~~~
chrismealy
Are courses in Norwegian?

~~~
nattmat
None of the comp. sci. courses I have been to at least. Norwegian lecturers
will usually ask if anyone does not speak Norwegian. This is at masters level
at UiO; I am not sure about bachelor courses.

~~~
Aqwis
Bachelor's level courses are in Norwegian.

------
bisRepetita
One argument, not made, is that it may help German students too. Having
various nationalities at home expose them to other ways of thinking. And it
increases their abilities to deal with them culturally later in life/business.

I do find a parallel, at a completely different scale, with the strategy of
Loh, the coach of the US high-school team for the Math Olympiads. An important
part of his strategy is to invite his international opponents to train with
his team. It is counter intuitive, but he says it makes his team better, and
they're less scared of competition. They won twice in a row since.

NYT article:
[https://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/wordplay/2016/07/18/imo-201...](https://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/wordplay/2016/07/18/imo-2016/)

------
MarkMc
> starting in fall 2017, the southwestern state of Baden-Württemberg will
> start charging non-E.U. students 1,500 euros ($1,634) per semester

That's still incredibly cheap for a quality university degree.

~~~
behrendtio
It's cheap but not quality.

~~~
ar0
> It's cheap but not quality.

Do you care to elaborate on that? If I look at the Times Higher Education
ranking for Teaching, I see e.g. Heidelberg University on world rank 43:

[https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-
rankin...](https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-
rankings/universitat-heidelberg#ranking-dataset/589595)

(Just picked because it's the first university in Baden-Württemberg I found;
obviously, for specific subjects the rankings might vary a bit.)

That's not MIT or Harvard, but if that's your standard of "quality" than very
few people in the world will have "quality" education.

~~~
orless
In Baden-Württemberg, KIT (Karlsruhe Institute of Technology) is the "place to
go" in computer science.

------
wslh
My country, Argentina, does the same just in case you want to study here. The
courses are obviously in Spanish. Postgraduate studies are paid.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Would you have more information? Definitely interested!

~~~
wslh
Information from the government here:
[http://elbno.cancilleria.gov.ar/en/node/5176](http://elbno.cancilleria.gov.ar/en/node/5176)

------
faragon
In my opinion, unless German IT companies accept to work in English because
available workforce in neighbor countries already know English, or they're
going to have problems attracting world-class talent. I.e. accepting as
"acceptable behavior" people not willing to learn German as a requirement.

~~~
wolfgke
> German IT companies accept to work in English because available workforce in
> neighbor countries already know English

Let's look at the neighbor countries of Germany and my impressions of their
German language skills:

Austria: German is spoken there

Belgium: ?

Czechia: Czechs who want to work in Germany often know German (to me)
surprisingly well (this can perhaps be explained by German history (keyword:
Sudetenland))

Denmark: ?

France: French people IMHO are typically neither good at English nor German

Luxembourg: German is one of the languages spoken there

the Netherlands: They typically know German quite well (though they often
don't like using this language)

Poland: Poles who want to work in Germany often know German (to me)
surprisingly well (this can perhaps be explained by the German history with
the historical expanse of the German Reich)

Switzerland: German is one of the languages spoken there (not that the Swiss
would prefer to work in Germany over their own country for obvious reasons)

TLDR: In many Germany's neighboring countries it is common to know German on a
decent level - at least if you plan to work in Germany. If there was I second
language from a neighboring country in which work should be accepted, this
should rather be French (for France and Belgium) instead of English.

~~~
faragon
> TLDR: In many Germany's neighboring countries it is common to know German on
> a decent level - at least if you plan to work in Germany. If there was I
> second language from a neighboring country in which work should be accepted,
> this should rather be French (for France and Belgium) instead of English.

Sure, e.g. I did myself one year of German courses (I forgot most of it,
because it was long time ago). In my opinion the point is to make attractive
world-class talent for working in Germany, even for short periods of time.
I.e. the "nationalist barrier", that is still very strong in Germany and also
e.g. in France, in my opinion hurts badly IT companies (fortunately, now is a
much smaller problem versus how it was 15-20 years ago, when it was very
difficult to work in Germany or France with just English).

In my opinion, unless European Union countries become more pragmatic,
accepting the English as the "IT language", or the handicap for hiring world-
class talent will still be a issue, for both the internal EU job market, and
also for getting international talent (e.g. a talented Indian would try first
to work in the USA or the UK just because he already did English in the
school, being ha handicap having to learn French or German for a temporary
job).

~~~
wolfgke
You explicitly talked of "neighboring countries" of Germany - here I provided
evidence that the situation is different.

> being ha handicap having to learn French or German for a temporary job

Here I rather see the problem: The people only want a temporary job in Germany
- so they see Germany just as a stepping stone for their career. If I were a
staff manager at a company, I would be very cautious to hire such a person,
since in Germany it is seen as a desirable trait that a person does not switch
jobs every few years. There are "legal period of notice" which hold for _bot_
h sides: An employer can after some probation period not simply fire an
employee without a period of notice, but the other implication does also hold:
After the probation period an employee cannot simply quit the job without a
period of notice, too.

~~~
faragon
Well, for neighboring countries I meant EU countries. You can have near
unlimited low-qualification worker supply from your strictly speaking
neighboring countries, but not necessarily world-class skilled workers,
specially, if those workers willing to move from one country to another can
pick options with less conditions. Also, you can have potential supply, not
willing to move, just because of nationalist stuff (forced "integration") or
other elements that could make a country less attractive than another.

Don't get me wrong: I would love Germany, and all EU countries getting as much
talent as possible, from the internal EU area, and also from other countries
as well. I'm worried about nationalism and the lack of pragmatism ruining job
flexibility and business attractiveness, so European companies have such a
huge handicap for competing in the international market.

~~~
wolfgke
> Well, for neighboring countries I meant EU countries.

There are only three EU countries (UK, Ireland, Malta) where English is an
official language - soon there will be only two. For comparison: German is
official language in four EU countries (Germany, Austria, Belgium, Luxembourg)
and French in three (France, Belgium, Luxembourg).

Now let's look at data for language knowledge in the EU:

>
> [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Languages_of_the_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Languages_of_the_European_Union&oldid=776168976#Knowledge)

The most common first language in the EU is German. Other important first
languages are English, French and Italian (this table has not yet included the
fact that soon for English this number has to be much lower).

Totally (in number of native and non-native speakers) English (51%) looks more
important than German (32%) or French (26%).

Now I tell you an observation: When (EU) people are talking that they know
English as an additional language, this often means "really bad English" (just
try to converse with Italians in English ;-) ). This is clearly not sufficient
knowledge for using English in a professional environment. On the other hand
when they claim to know German or French as an additional language, this
typically promises much better language skills than if such a claim is made
for English by some person. So I would argue that "people knowing enough of
the language such that in, say, half a year they could use this language in a
professional environment" for English the "51%" must be made smaller by a lot,
while for German and French a similar correction should be much more minor.

Really: On a wordwide scale English might have a large role, but if you talk
about _EU_ , there are other languages (in particular German and French) that
are at least of similar importance "for EU purposes" (just as in South America
Spanish and Portuguese are the important languages and not English) - and with
Brexit their importance will surely even increase.

~~~
faragon
English is the lingua franca in IT, worldwide. Everyone in IT knows it, to
some extent. And even general population get English as second or third
language. English teaching is generalized at developed countries, while German
it is not.

P.S. My English is also "bad", being a Spaniard myself, but enough for working
in English in IT (not for writing novels, obviously).

~~~
wolfgke
> English is the lingua franca in IT, worldwide. Everyone in IT knows it, to
> some extent.

At an internship at a German-French software company there also was a French
programming department (alongside the German one, where I interned). I can
assure you: They hardly knew English, at best it was a mixture between French
and English, where to understand the English (in the source code) you often
had to translate it back to French in your mind (because otherwise it made no
sense).

~~~
faragon
Sure, that's precisely what I'm warning about: if you need to adapt to the
international market you can not wait 2 or 3 years for someone to adapt to a
local "circumstance". Not taking advance that in all EU countries English is
at least in primary and secondary education, it is a mistake, in my opinion.
More pragmatism in IT through the EU would increase the capability for
reaching regional full potential.

E.g. Imagine you're in Germany and you can not hire an expert in some specific
specialty because language issues (i.e. because your staff is not able to work
in English). Also, when doing collaboration between European companies:
imagine having to deal with documentation written in French, German, Italian,
Spanish, Dutch, Swedish, etc. Fortunately, most European IT companies do most
of the code and documentation in English (that was not the case of 20-30 years
ago, e.g. Imagine having to reprogram 6502 assembly stuff commented in French
-or a CPU-less logic circuit, for adding more fun-, or understanding the
German documentation for a 25 year old ticket issue machine built in Austria).

------
MarkMc
I'm interested in setting up a small non-profit school for poor, young adults
in Indonesia to teach them German and other skills necessary for admission to
Studienkolleg (the one-year preparatory course for foreign students wishing to
apply to a German university).

The main goal is to get the student a good IT job in Germany within 5 or 6
years. In return, the student must commit to giving a percentage of his or her
income back to the school, so the school can grow without requiring external
donations.

What does HN think of this plan? Is it achievable? If not, what is the most
likely cause of failure?

PS: If anyone knows a good lawyer in Indonesia for setting up a yayasan or
obtaining KITAS please contact me - see profile.

------
MarkMc
Is there a fixed quota for the number of international students studying at
German universities?

That is, if the number of international student applications doubled would it
make it harder for German students to be accepted into university?

~~~
tmalsburg2
To my knowledge there is no quota either for foreign students or students in
general. If we'd get twice as many applications in one year, we have to fit
twice as many people in the lecture halls. In Germany, education is actually a
right and a lot of people sue their way into universities when they are
rejected based on their grades.

------
mrkgnao
I'm a graduating senior in India, interested in studying math as an
undergraduate.

Considering that I know some German (~B1), could this work out for me?

~~~
brabus
I would advice you to learn till C1 level. B1 is not enough and Bachelor in
Math is mostly in German and you must take TestDAF, so I think you should
spend one year or so clearing upto C1 and TestDAF, which is highly advisable.
But you can also do the same in Germany, but you have to spend more money in
Germany. Since your German level is good, maybe you can find a part time job,
but that's no guaranteed thing.

------
yowkow
Certainly laudable. How does one "stick around" after graduation - do you have
to learn German?

~~~
HarryHirsch
_do you have to learn German?_

Why wouldn't you want to? It's a lovely country, with a huge body of
literature that you'd deprive yourself of if you refuse to learn the language.
And why isolate yourself from the locals? Weird attitude, that.

~~~
chrisseaton
They didn't say they didn't want to did they? You imagined that. It'd be
fantastic to be able to learn the languages of all the countries you visit,
but not everyone finds that easy do they.

~~~
HarryHirsch
The OP didn't talk about visiting a country, he asked about settling in
Germany. The words were "do you have to", not "I wish I could"; he made
learning your adopted country's language sound like a chore instead of a
challenge. Full immersion makes the learning process much easier.

Besides, taking citizenship of any country requires a language exam.

------
jernfrost
Several places in Europe are like this. E.g. in my home country Norway you
also don't have to pay tuition: [https://www.studyinnorway.no/study-in-
norway/Tuition](https://www.studyinnorway.no/study-in-norway/Tuition), and a
lot of courses are taught in english. In the Netherlands all master level
degrees at all universities are taught in english if there are any non-dutch
speakers in class.

Both Norway and the Netherlands are perhaps easier if you don't speak the
native language than Germany as pretty much everybody speaks quite good
english in both places. I have friends in Norway I've known over decades who
still don't speak a word of Norwegian.

For an english speaker dutch is probably easier to learn than German, as dutch
is closer to english. E.g. "I sit in the train and drink water", in dutch
becomes something like "Ik sit in de trein en drink water". Not sure about
Norwegian, but it is probably an easier language than German. Not quite as
complicated grammar.

Having studied at very different universities with respect to ranking, I got
to say I don't think ranking means very much for the average student. It is
overhyped, I can't see a huge difference. Ultimately results are going to
depend on you and your efforts.

In fact there has been studies of this. Ivy League universities don't actually
improve your grades or earning prospects. It just looks like that due to
creaming. But when they compare SAT scores of students who could get into an
Ivy League but chose not to with those who did, one doesn't see a difference
in salary afterwards: [https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/the-college-
solution/...](https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/the-college-
solution/2011/03/01/the-ivy-league-earnings-myth)

I read in another study that if you are at the lower tier in an ivy league you
will actually end up worse, because it will kill your confidence to be around
so many people smarter than you. Go to a normal college where you are among
the better and it will boost your confidence and ability to excel.

And many might already have read that Google does in fact not favor ivy league
students as they are typically to dependent on external drive, grades etc,
rather than internal drive to make good products which is what matters at
google.

Anyway I think people should focus more on going a place they would enjoy. I
think many European universities are very nice to attend because in Europe
there are lots of cities which are easy to walk and with great public
transport. That makes life a lot nicer for students. You can easily get around
town and do all sorts of stuff, either, with bike, walking, tram, bus etc.
Also at least in northern Europe societies tend to offer more freedom for
youngsters. I've studied in the US for a year and found it too restrictive.
There is too much control on young people. You can't drink until 21.
Dormitories have a lot of rules and are gender segregated. In e.g. Norway or
the Netherlands, student housing means sharing a real apartment with people.
You got mixed gender and you cook food together, can invite people over, come
and go when you like.

------
anotheryou
You still need rich parents, because you're not allowed to work much to
support yourself.

~~~
MarkMc
A German student visa allows you to work 120 days per year [0]. At minimum
wage [1] that is about EUR 9,000 per year. I think there would be many
international students who could support themselves with that. Standard of
living would be low compared to Germans, but it's possible.

You do however need to show you have EUR 8,640 before you get the student visa
[2]. Very poor families would not be able to borrow this amount, so it acts as
a barrier for them.

[0] [https://www.daad.de/deutschland/in-
deutschland/arbeit/en/914...](https://www.daad.de/deutschland/in-
deutschland/arbeit/en/9148-earning-money/)

[1]
[https://www.google.com.au/publicdata/explore?ds=ml9s8a132hlg...](https://www.google.com.au/publicdata/explore?ds=ml9s8a132hlg_&met_y=minimum_wage&idim=country:de:fr:uk&fdim_y=currency:eur&hl=en&dl=en)

[2] [https://www.daad.de/deutschland/nach-
deutschland/bewerbung/e...](https://www.daad.de/deutschland/nach-
deutschland/bewerbung/en/9199-visa-application/)

~~~
beberlei
At least minimum wage. You can aern a lot more as a computer science student
and probably in other fields.

------
louithethrid
You grow them, we poach them, they build it, you buy it. What a nice little
buisness model. Could be very historic soon.

I wonder if with youtube lectures and automated courseware- open source
universitys could be errected in nearly any country. Finance the food, finance
the healthcare and roof, and those students could study anywhere.

------
Boothroid
Another possible reason - they may well have little choice! Lists of top
ranked universities are generally dominated by the US/UK. In this list the
highest ranked German institution is at number 30:
[https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-
rankin...](https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-
rankings/2017/world-
ranking#!/page/0/length/25/sort_by/rank/sort_order/asc/cols/stats)

It's always going to be hard to charge the same as a competitor when your
product is inferior.

~~~
yardie
Most of the top universities in the US are effectively free. The pool of
students they get to choose from would enter with a basket of scholarship
money to the point they wouldn't have to pay. The other group is so wealthy
the price of tuition is the cost of a new luxury car, every year. Effectively
a single percentage expense.

Germany doesn't have to make their schools to compete free because the schools
they compete against are basically free to the type of students they are
pursuing.

~~~
Boothroid
I seriously doubt the average Ivy League/Oxbridge aspirant would ever consider
a Germany university as an alternative. Below these few elite universities you
have another upper tier which in the UK would be Imperial/UCL/Durham etc.
(although some departments in this supposedly lower tier are superior to the
top tier). Below that you have another tier, and looking at this tier in the
global rankings you are starting to see some German universities crop up.
Basically, and I'm not looking to be offensive, but with these universities
your market is by definition the more mediocre students, and it is in this
group that I think you would start to find students for whom price is more of
a priority than quality. Students at the better than average universities
expect their degree to deliver a premium that will easily wipe out the cost.

~~~
thesumofall
Just because some students don't aspire to go to a German university doesn't
mean the quality of education would be any worse. Many of my close friends
(and me personally as well) did their undergrad in Germany and then a semester
abroad and/or their Master's in top-10 universities in the US. I have yet to
hear from anyone that they felt in any way more challenged in the US
(typically the opposite). Yes studying in the US is great fun compared to
Germany (sports, extracurriculars, nice spirit of community, ...) but in terms
of learning I doubt there is much of a difference

~~~
jernfrost
Same experience. I think despite the ranking, European universities are
actually higher quality. American universities use too much student
assistants. Too much of the teaching is hand holding and high school like.
When I compare my dutch university experience with my American, it was more
research oriented in the Netherlands. You learned to think more
scientifically. In the US it felt like it was just about learning lots of
stuff. Also the grading system in the US is a weak spot. It is usually far too
easy to get an A in the US.

I've also have friends who have gone to top US universities, but who mainly
can speak of the advantage being that, because they are big, they can offer
more variation of course, but with respect to quality there was little
difference.

~~~
yardie
It's a double edged sword. I didn't attend a European university but I have
many friends who have. Their complaints were the subjects were book heavy with
very little practical overlap. Professors were unreachable, office hours did
not exist.

This was for the normal universities. The technical schools are a different
animal. Extrememly competitive to the point of mental breakdown. And if that
happened? Tough luck, they don't care.

