
A scammer stole $500 from me and in the end begged me not to tell his parents - geek_at
https://blog.haschek.at/2016/how-a-scammer-stole-500-dollars-from-me
======
hoodoof
Tell his parents is precisely what you should do. That's what would lead to
possible behavior change. Letting him get away with it validates the behavior
and teaches that it's OK and he will be able to talk his way out of such
things again.

It does everyone a disservice to not tell his parents.

The author got manipulated twice. First convinced to hand over his money and
then convinced not to tell the parents.

The scammer player the author like a guitar. Right there is the psychopath's
first big lesson - "people listen when I cry".

The genius of the scammer/budding psychopath being that the blogger thinks he
"won".

~~~
Udik
Downvoted you. It's a big jump from "somebody, 22 yo, scammed somebody else
online at least once" to "psychopath".

To be frank, I think I wish the word "psychopath" was deleted from the
dictionary altogether. It's just a handy label to apply to all sorts of
baddies, effectively dehumanizing them (he's a psychopath- he would do
anything to you, so you're justified in doing anything to him).

~~~
jondubois
I disagree. It would never have entered my mind to do such a thing at age 22.

These people rarely change; if you don't punish them severely, you're giving
them an unfair advantage over honest people. We don't want to live in a
society dominated by crooks.

~~~
vanderreeah
Respectfully, I cannot see that what "would have entered your mind at the age
of 22" has any bearing on your argument. The experience of one person
(yourself) is not a valid basis for extrapolating blanket judgements of
others, whether they're positive or negative. I'm not making a comment on your
attitude towards severe punishment, more on your stated reasons for holding
that attitude.

~~~
jondubois
I'm sure there is a reason why people behave like this: Childhood trauma,
poverty, bad parenting, etc...

I can sympathize to some extent - But in a broader context, if you don't
severely punish this behaviour (when caught), it becomes a beneficial
attribute for people to have... Fast forward a few generations and society
would be filled with such people.

------
ufmace
Yeah, I'm not buying that apology for a second. Probably the first thing any
con artist learns is how to fake being really sorry as well as they faked
being legitimate anytime somebody manages to turn the tables on them. I bet
you can get your money back and then report him to the police too. He's way
beyond being corrected by his parents, and he probably threw that in just to
make you think there's an option besides the police, assuming that you're too
nice to put him in jail, where he belongs. Maybe some jail time will lead him
to reevaluate his choices. Or at least keep him from stealing from anybody
else for a little while.

~~~
Artoemius
I agree. Begging is a skill, and this scammer is already a professional in
that respect.

If he was 16 or 17, it probably wouldn't be too late to tell his parents,
although that depends on the family. 22 is way too old for that.

In addition, I think the author should at least release the details of the
eBay account to the public to make them googleable in connection with the
scam. Since it was the eBay account that convinced the author to go first, it
can convince other people too.

~~~
xan0v
Scream 'doxx' if you want, but the right thing to do here would be to educate
the public about this guy so the rest of us can steer clear. The rest is up to
the wronged here.

~~~
geek_at
I didn't write it in the blog but I sure as hell shouldhave looked up his
account on reddit.

Later found out that the very user he made the deal with me was banned from
most trading subs.. my mistake, glad it worked out for me though :D

------
fataliss
I find like 22 is already fairly old to do something stupid like that and call
it a day with a "sorry". You are fully responsible legally and you should know
better. I agree that going all out to make sure that person gets the worst
punishment possible for it would be over the top. But I'd definitely at least
tell the parents.

------
overcast
Sounds a lot like a kid who attempted to scam me out of a GPU.

He sent me a bogus Bitcoin transfer email from a well known escrow service.

I stupidly did not check header information, as I was in a rush at the time,
and shipped without confirming it.

All was well, until he sends me a picture of the card, with essentially a
HAHAHAHA, various derogatory remarks, name calling, you name it. I was calm,
and collective, tried various bargaining options to recover it. His arrogance
was overwhelming.

He posts all over forums, showing how clever he was. This is where he made his
fatal mistake.

Investigation begins. I sift through tons, and tons of forum posts, all over
the internet. Come up with a handful of names, and various aliases he uses.
Was able to confirm that his current location, was around the area where the
package was sent(to a home).

Got in contact with the feds regarding online scams, no response.

Got in contact with local police, they tell me nothing can be done, contact
feds.

Got in contact with the local news of where the package was shipped, who gets
me in contact with the local police that they are friends with.

Police contacts me, and I send over all my logs and information. Police make
some visits to the destination address, and it turns out they are actually the
friend of the kid.

The kid finally breaks, and furiously emails me scared that the cops are
coming for him, and he demands that I send him my return address so he can
give me back the card. Apparently he threw out the box. He wants to know how I
could do this to him, and that it was all just a big joke. I refuse, and
ignore future pleas.

I speak with the cops, who now have tracked down the kid, and they speak with
him and his parents. They said I can press charges, which I did.

His father emails me, and starts tearing into ME, questioning how I could
possibly sell to a minor, without parents authorization. Over, and over, and
over. I tell him this isn't my problem anymore, either the card is paid for,
or I'll see them in court.

A couple days go by, his mother emails me, apologizing profusely, we set up a
Paypal transaction for far more than the card is worth(I initially listed it
at an inflated value). Done.

Speak with the cop, give the OK, case closed.

Feds email me a month or two later, saying nothing they can do, contact local
police. :)

~~~
Paul_S
This the correct way to deal with criminals - it's not your call to decide if
they're a minor, a psychopath etc.. This way society can deal with criminals,
hopefully his parents will make an effort now. Had you not done all this work
we'd be guaranteed to have one more criminal to incarcerate in the future.

~~~
SamBam
It may be the correct way to deal with criminals in some situations, and it
sounds like in this case it was.

However, as individuals we can still decide that _our_ code of ethics
precludes us from involving the state in matters of petty crime, if we think
the state's response may be disproportionately harsh.

If we think the state is incorrect to classify marijuana was a class I drug,
the same as heroine, for example, we have every right to make our own
judgement about whether to report every pot smoker to the police.

Sometimes, depending on the alleged crime, people may have very real fears
that bringing in the state may have lethal consequences. In America, many
black people are more hesitant to call the cops, because of excessive risks to
the petty criminal, or even to themselves. Here's a homeowner who decided to
call the cops who ended up shot, because the cops appeared to assume that any
black man emerging from the house must be the criminal:
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-
nation/wp/2016/08/2...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-
nation/wp/2016/08/24/a-black-homeowner-called-911-to-report-a-carjacking-he-
wound-up-getting-shot-by-police/)

The point is, we could all be robots and always trust the state to deal with
every issue correctly, or we could decide occasionally to trust our own morals
and code of ethics, and use our own discretionary powers when deciding what to
report.

~~~
tzakrajs
The state is more consistent than our personal ethics and we should regularly
exercise the system so that if unfair convictions start happening we can
change the law or vote in new judges and district attorneys.

~~~
triplesec
except that the state is manifestly _not_ more consistent than our personal
ethics. See how each state varies in its treatment of punishment? See how in
each state, some groups (often black, or minority, or hackers) get a lot worse
treatment?

------
maxxxxx
I have dealt with chronic liars before and I believe his apology is a scam
too. He just wants you to go away so he can get back to business.

He should be reported to police.

~~~
tzakrajs
We should give this 22 year old man the respect he deserves by holding him
accountable for his actions.

------
noonespecial
I'm a cynic, I know, but the I'm sorry sounds like a prepared cut and paste
for when it goes bad. He had _other_ Apple giftcards in large amounts laying
around that he could use to appease the author??? This is a well worn machine.

~~~
nerdponx
Eh? He got paid in bitcoin at the end I thought

~~~
smellf
"I'm broke and don't have the BTC otherwise I would have given it to you
already, here's an Apple gift card for $477 and the remainder is still on this
other card here." \-- something like what the scammer said.

~~~
sealjam
The author after that quote:

"He wanted to give my my cards back but I tried for years to get rid of them
so I say he can sell them and give me the BTC. Which he did and our deal was
finally forfilled."

~~~
Shanea93
I wonder if the bitcoins he sent to the author in return for the cards were
actually scammed from another unwitting party?

------
mtriano
So he had no money, but he had an apple card for $477 and your $250 card with
the balance? Sounds like evidence that he's scammed other people with this
scam. Sounds like there are already other victims out there, sans justice.

~~~
ryhamz
The author has 2 x $250, so $500 total.

The scammer had spent $23.

~~~
mtriano
Yes, but the story said the scammer wanted to repay Haschek with 1 card worth
$477 (note that $477 is greater than $250, this will be important in the next
sentence) and another card worth the difference. You can't add money to an
Apple gift card after the initialization of the card.

Therefore, the $477 card wasn't one of the 2 cards that the scammer scammed
from Haschek. It was separate, and evidence of another crime. Hence my post.

~~~
tzakrajs
And accepting it as payment would make him complicit in harboring stolen
property.

------
megablast
> I think he won't be scamming anyone for a while

Yeah, maybe. You can never really tell. He got away with this one really, by
just returning the cards. It might convince him he was the skills to keep
going.

I would have told his mum.

------
ryandrake
Agree with the others: You were scammed twice. That "apology" was 100% fake
and in no time he'll be back to scamming others who aren't that skilled at
doxing. Seriously. What 22 year old grown adult is afraid about what mommy
thinks? Totally unbelievable.

------
gertef
Essentially, author believes it's more important to help the scammer recover
than to help the other victims get their stolen money back.

~~~
yuja_wang
Exactly! That's why he should have gone to the Police.

~~~
joecool1029
You should report to his family and his details should be publicized should
their response not be sufficient. Even then it's likely he won't stop. Only
take back what he stole as anything else is likely stolen goods. The point
here is to provide assistance for any other victims in locating who scammed
them as well as making the scammer painfully aware of the damage he will cause
himself by continuing with this behavior.

Why am I deprioritizing police? Police really don't handle this sort of thing
well. They'll likely consider it a civil matter or just won't make the stretch
to pursue. It doesn't help the victim is not in the US (lower that priority
some more) Sure you can log the complaint, but unless he's brazen and lots
come forward about him, they likely will not bring charges. (go read up on
bitscotty scamming bitcoin-otc'ers, he did it for years even after being
doxxed and reported to police) I'm not saying not to report though. Make sure
his details are accessible so others can follow your report.

If you want another fast track, he said he's in college so report to their
administration. Without rights or due process in the way they'll probably
sanction his ass immediately. Did he scam from the school's network? If so it
is now a school issue and they don't like looking bad. :)

------
greenshackle
I don't do these sort of trades but if I did I'd try:

Buyer sends 1/4 of the BTC

Sellers sends 1st card

Buyer sends 1/2 of the BTC

Seller sends 2nd card

Buyer sends 1/4 of BTC

That way the risk is shared, and both parties stand to lose at most 1/4 of the
value (if seller defects after receiving the first payment, or buyer defects
and fails to make the last payment).

~~~
dragontamer
Or use an escrow service / middleman that people trust.

Bitcoin transfers aren't the problem here. Its transferring money to a trusted
3rd party, and then that 3rd party transferring the money forward (or back)
once the items are confirmed to be transferred.

The problem then becomes dispute resolution. Even priority mail can be faked.
Close the envelope with fake cards or whatever... so no matter what, dispute
resolution becomes the limiting factor.

But a trusted middleman using a protocol that is hard to fake with harsh
penalties on the scammers that do break the protocol is the answer.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
Which are the best ones?

~~~
DonHopkins
This one looks totally legit:
[http://cardingmafia.ws/f60/](http://cardingmafia.ws/f60/)

"Forum: Carding Mafia Escrow Service: Do you need to buy in safe way And Not
To Get Ripped From some kid ? Come here and use CM Escrow Service Its Free..
Warning Not allowed To reply in threads .. who allowed to reply in thread just
seller and buyer and escrow man anyone else will got banned for 7 days"

Pulsating banner ads: $0.00

PHPNuke discussion board: $0.00

Blinking animated emoticons: $0.00

Mafia run escrow service: $0.00

Knowing the little bastard will end up with a decapitated horse head in his
bed if he doesn't pay up: priceless.

------
disillusioned
We had someone scam us on eBay for a laptop YEARS ago (like, 15 years ago)
before they had the full buyer protections they have now. There wasn't really
any recourse, but he had used his real phone number on his account. Or, I
should say, his _mother 's_ real phone number, since he lived at home. We
ended up calling, and reaching her, and when we told her what had happened she
lost her shit, forced him to refund the order and, I presume, ensured that
never happened again.

~~~
brianwawok
People still get EBay scammed for laptops today. Buy laptop. You ship it. They
claim it doesn't work. EBay forces a refund when they ship it back. They ship
back a brick. You are out a laptop.

~~~
triplesec
That's why I video the wrap, send and receive parts on valuable ebay sales

------
apatters
What the scammer did is wrong, and the plight of the victim is easy to relate
to here. It's easy to have a sense of personal outrage after reading this
story. But let's keep a sense of proportion in mind: it is $500 worth of gift
cards that the victim couldn't use and had been trying to get rid of for 4
years. I suspect that anyone trying to get free gift cards off of Reddit is
pretty small-time.

I think telling the parents and leaving it at that is probably the right thing
to do. We should reserve our energy, outrage, and enforcement for the scammers
who do the greatest damage. Scammers that have made millions, hired armies of
lawyers, even made friends in power who have rewritten the law to favor them.
The petty criminal deserves a petty punishment.

~~~
tamana
$500 x how many victims?

------
driverdan
As a seller never _ever_ send something first before payment. Never send
samples and never accept partial payment. Scammers know all the tricks and
have the upper hand.

~~~
caf
Doesn't the same advice apply to the buyer as well, though?

~~~
beefhash
It does. That's the problem and the reason why Internet trading is so
frustrating an experience.

------
ohstopitu
A while back I was trying to buy a macbook online and while searching for
cheap macbooks, I went down the rabbit hole that is Alibaba (here's an example
of what I was talking about[1]).

The seller claimed to be based in USA, had warehouses in Brazil and demanded
that I pay via Western Union. After confirming all the details (via email). I
decided to give it a shot. After sending him about $250 CAD (of the $500) he
sent me a shipping code which had a description of a GTX 970. After
complaining to him about it, he claimed that there was some mistake and his
wearhouse in London would have it fixed and sent me another tracking number.

After a day of shipping, he emailed me claiming that he had a talk with the
shipping company and they had decided to keep the laptop in escrow till I paid
the entire amount (and sent him the confirmation numbers). At this point, I
realized I was getting duped (if it's too good to be true, it's generally
false), and canceled my payment.

A year later, both those shipping numbers still work and claim that the items
are on the way.

I did try to follow up on his "company" and the shipping company, but there
had been some serious work put into it (they had good SEO, support accounts,
forums etc - all of which were fake btw).

I wanted to contact the local authorities, but in all honesty, no action would
be taken - the scammer was located in a different country and I had nothing
but an email and a name to go ahead on.

The reason I felt bad after this was not because I got scammed, but because
"I" got scammed. (I was always proud that I could not get duped or fall into
such scams but I had)

[1] - [https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Price-For-Aple-
Macboo...](https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Price-For-Aple-Macbook-PRO-
MGXC2_101461408.html?spm=a2700.7724838.0.0.qOOfm3)

~~~
elmigranto
I mean, at your link they are "selling" top of the line MacBooks for $200 a
piece; that's kind of asking for it.

~~~
puddintane
I noticed they intentionally remove a "p" from Apple to avoid getting Apple
after them. I wonder if it would be smart to report these listings to Apple
directly since they have a far better bankroll to tackle those problems.
Although I'm sure it is difficult even for Apple to address them.

~~~
anotheryou
Product Type: Black Tea

------
barking
The guy is 22, telling mum and dad shouldn't come into it, he got off very
lightly, it's the police he needs to talk to.

I've met one or two he reminds me off and they have no shame. Doing a cry-baby
act like he did at the end took nothing out of him. His true nature was
revealed in his previous actions.

Came across as a parasitical, POS to me.

------
chillacy
The buyer assumed ebay feedback was good enough, but even veteran ebay buyers
with good feedback will try to scam sellers by transacting outside of the site
to save the transaction fees... and of course that's how you get scammed. The
transaction fees are partially insurance for these things: if you buy and get
scammed, ebay will eat the cost of it, much like credit card companies do in
cases of fraud.

~~~
withdavidli
> if you buy and get scammed, ebay will eat the cost of it, much like credit
> card companies do in cases of fraud.

This is not true unless things have changed in the last few years. eBay will
try to get the money back by flagging the fraudster's account. But if that
account has been emptied there's nothing they can do and eBay does not refund
your money from their pocket.

For the credit card comment. I don't think this is true either since I worked
in retail before (family owned). Credit card companies are really quick to
credit the account in case of fraud (I deal with this with my own CC every
year). Thinking through this it makes sense since it doesn't come from the
CC's pockets, they freeze assets in the merchant's account and forcefully
refund the money from merchant's account if it was determined to be a
fraudulent charge (in some cases merchant still pays the transaction fee for
the CC charge).

~~~
DrScump
The eBay workflow in a fraud case is this: 1) if the money can be regained
from the seller in any way (e.g. charging the card they use for the seller
account or pulling back the Paypal proceeds from account balance or bank
account(s)), they will do so and refund the buyer. 2) if not, they will throw
up every possible barrier to the buyer, including (I have experienced) giving
you phony tracking data to "prove" you got the item, etc.

I've _never_ been refunded from eBay/Paypal no matter how obvious the fraud --
I've always had to do credit card chargebacks.

Never, _ever_ fund a Paypal payment with anything but a credit card unless
it's for something you can't possibly need refunded ever.

~~~
sireat
My anecdotal experience: as much as I despise eBay and Paypal (various reasons
going back to 2001) I have had only positive experiences with refunds from
eBay.

Recently I had a $20 IP camera(that price was too cheap but I was not doing my
research) not arrive from China from a seemingly reputable seller with 500+
selling feedback over 2 years.

I filed a complaint with eBay and seller claimed a fake tracking number.

More interestingly, the seller had gone rogue, turning feedback private and
acquiring about 100 negatives in a month.

So either the seller was hacked or had just pulled a long con.

My payment had come from Paypal balance and I got a very quick refund once I
informed eBay that I wanted a refund.

------
MichaelBurge
I can tell you haven't been scammed before. I've been fobbed off with that
same "I'm sorry" message before. They do it just to buy time, since you
eventually lose interest in them.

He's not sorry, and is just manipulating you into going away.

------
wott
I don't believe his 'sorry' message for a second. Way too dramatical.

Or I could be wrong and the brother is the city thug #1 :-)

------
ebbv
You are really naive if you buy his claims that he's never gonna do it again.
You weren't his first victim and probably weren't even the first refund he
gave.

------
tempestn
Regarding the final point, if you're using BTC already, there are some
alternatives to a classical escrow service:
[http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/13841/how-do-i-
us...](http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/13841/how-do-i-use-multisig-
transactions-to-handle-escrow-needs)

------
EasyTiger_
100% sure he will do this again. He's not some sort of teenage delinquent
going through a phase, he's an adult and this is a police matter. The
apologies and excuses are all well rehearsed.

------
nickodell
What was the point of using Bitcoin to avoid chargebacks if you sent the
giftcard first?

------
diegorbaquero
Doxing at its finest. I've had to do this too. For this type of cards, you can
use sythe.org and an official middle man (escrow), most likely free :) (Hit me
up if you need one, I have over 1200 feedbacks -> Nick: The Black Tux)

------
caub
I think he will do it again soon

------
lisper
> As I prepared the cards to ship them to him I sent him photos I uploaded via
> my open source image hosting service: PictShare. This fact is very important
> later on.

I think I must have missed something. I read the whole story and I still don't
see why the photos of the cards mattered.

~~~
josu
>His IP address from opening the image I sent him (also confirmed his
location)

~~~
lisper
Ah. Thanks!

------
ajeet_dhaliwal
Great detective work, well done! Like some others say I would have told the
parents too. I've met scammers and some of these people will say anything to
get away but then be scamming someone else the next day with a new account.

------
Jemmeh
> _Your privacy settings on facebook are only as good as your friends '_

This. I can reverse search anyone in seconds just by typing in any scrap of
information I have about them into the Facebook search bar. 90% of the time
there's a result. They might think they're careful with their own page, but
most of them have a friend who isn't.

------
m4tthumphrey
I don't think you need 100% unique usernames across the web, just use a unique
one on reddit!

------
jscardella
Very good explanation of good opsec by you and bad opsec by the target!

------
xupybd
Reading this was as satisfying as watching taken.

------
35bge57dtjku
And the idiot gets scammed again. :|

------
dessant
So much for blurring and redaction, the identity of the scammer is given away
in the blog post.

~~~
MattBearman
Unless it's been changed since you posted this, I can't see anything that
would give away the scammer's identity.

~~~
dessant
The elance overview contained a unique description, but now it is blurred[0].
The original is still up on archive.org.

[0]
[https://www.pictshare.net/ee61c0c5ba.jpg](https://www.pictshare.net/ee61c0c5ba.jpg)

~~~
EasyTiger_
So he's been scamming over Steam too and for years. And author thinks he won't
do this again, seriously? This is a way of life for him.

~~~
tomelders
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice? Well... a fool can't get fooled
again.

~~~
EasyTiger_
Seriously can't remember what this originally was anymore

------
thedanzing
This was an enjoyable read. I love when scammers get their comeuppance.

------
poidog44
That was well worth the read

------
poidog44
lol, that was well worth the read.

------
balabaster
That. Was. Poetic.

You sir, are legend.

------
bbcbasic
Wow! Why not just spend the gift card at Apple?

I only sell stuff face to face for the reasons mentioned here.

eBay/PayPal is flakey as they side with the buyer and lost a couple of times
there. I then lost as a buyer buying services using Paypal as they only help
the buyer if it is a physical product. Fortunately in aggregate lost a lot
less than this dude. Let alone sending stuff to some random address on the
promise of some bitcoin.

~~~
kbart
_" Wow! Why not just spend the gift card at Apple?'_

The author has specifically mentioned that he's not in US and these gift cards
are "USA only".

------
ommunist
Like you said - use escrow.

------
isolli
Why not sell the gift cards on eBay?

------
kahrkunne
"someone scammed me, so I doxed and threatened him, then made him sell my
cards for me" Impressive, tough guy.

~~~
ryguytilidie
I too get upset when someone has the gall to do something about thieves...?

------
mhluongo
It's the fact that the author paid in bitcoin that made this work. Most other
online payment methods can be easily reversed with evidence of fraud.

We deal with this sort of stuff all the time running cardforcoin.com. Social
evidence is a great fraud deterrent.

Edit: My mistake, I reversed the payment direction. All the author needed to
do was call Apple to have the cards cleared and replaced.

~~~
reefoctopus
PayPal is just as bad in my experience. I was sent pirated software. They
ruled against me and let the scammer keep the money.

------
downandout
Obviously what the kid did was illegal and morally wrong, and contacting his
family was certainly effective. But I believe that contacting his family
probably violated most state and federal debt collection laws. After all,
essentially what happened is that he was late on a $380 debt payment.

Imagine if you were a few days late on a credit card payment, and they started
calling your relatives telling them that if they weren't paid, they would be
going to the cops. That is very illegal, and in that scenario the credit card
company could be sued for damages. These two scenarios have some legal
equivalence - someone that is owed a debt contacts family and uses
embarrassment as leverage to collect. There have been many cases where
criminals have successfully sued their victims and this may be a good
candidate. This blog post, which this kid's lawyer would paint as a public
celebration of the damage done to his client's life, doesn't help matters.

So what he did in this case was logical, and probably even cut the kid a
break, but it probably exposed him to legal liability. He should have just
gone to the cops and let it play out if that was his actual intention after
not being paid.

~~~
mikkom
> After all, essentially what happened is that he was late on a $500 debt
> payment.

That is far too nice way to describe the issue and I would assume that even in
US these are two separate issues (being late from mutually agreed payment and
trying to scam someone)

~~~
downandout
The problem is that legally, unless and until the kid is found guilty of fraud
or theft (or he pleads guilty to such a crime), the money owed is nothing more
than a debt that this guy attempted to collect in illegal ways.

~~~
andruby
This is like trying to collect a debt and the other person wilfully denying
there was ever a transaction. I doubt this is legally the same as being late
on a debt. IANAL

