
Ask HN: Do you cold-contact peers when considering working at a company? - mandytolliver
I&#x27;m thinking about my next software development job. I think I might find a developer in a similar job in a company, cold-email them, and ask a few questions about what it&#x27;s really like to work there. (I&#x27;ll include a link to my personal site so that they understand I&#x27;m worth responding to.)<p>I&#x27;ll be more comfortable talking to them rather applying for a job directly which makes me seem needy.<p>They&#x27;ll probably be more honest and open  than a hiring manager. And if it goes well, they may pass on my resume.<p>I&#x27;m surprised that I haven&#x27;t heard this done more often. Have you tried this? Does it work for you?  Or does it seem rude?
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SandB0x
When I was a minion at a medium sized software company, if you had emailed me
at my work address I would have either not replied or would have done so very
cautiously.

If we had met through friends or at a meetup, I'd have been happy to talk to
you much more openly about my job and the workplace.

The best developers I know have contacts all over town. They occasionally go
along to meetups and user-groups on things they are interested in - not in a
cynical way, they just enjoy chatting to like-minded folk and learning.

I would suggest you start doing the same, with the warnings about appearing
desperate as mentioned in jonnathanson's comment. You don't have to sacrifice
your personal/family life, just go along to a meetup on some
technology/language/topic of interest once or twice a month, be friendly and
personable, swap details with any like-minded people and stay in touch with
them on occasion.

~~~
joe_the_user
_The best developers I know have contacts all over town. They occasionally go
along to meetups and user-groups on things they are interested in, not in a
cynical way, and just enjoy chatting to like-minded folk._

Interesting. Seeing it laid that way, one could easily see that as selection
bias. The good developers _you know_ have contacts all over town. The good
developers you don't know don't have contact all over town and so you don't
know and can't compare them to the developers you know.

Not that this an argument against socializing, just the opposite.

~~~
nahname
Passionate people enjoy what they do and are better at it than non-passionate
people. Seems obvious.

~~~
pavlov
An active social life is not an indicator of passion for work. Are the best
artists the ones who spend the most time in bars?

------
auctiontheory
You can do this, but you'd be _much_ better off finding a common connection,
perhaps through LinkedIn. No company is perfect, but someone who knows you
only through a cold email would be a fool to trust you with criticism of his
employer.

I'm not sure why you think that your personal site proves that you're "worth
responding to." The problem with your post is that it's all about you - you're
not thinking of what's in it for the recipient of your email, or what risks it
poses for them.

~~~
mandytolliver
OK, getting a referral is good.

The link to my personal site has the role of a resume -- it is to show that
I'm not sure random person off the street, I am someone who may well be worth
recruiting.

The idea is that the contact will see that a serious, experienced, front-end
designer/developer just made contact and may well want to pitch their company
to me.

I'm not looking for them to slag off their company, of course.

I am fine being pitched to, but I'd prefer that a fellow developer does this.

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impendia
I did this, with great success, when I was applying to math graduate schools.

I was in an unusual situation -- had been out of school for five years, and so
did not have any useful contacts. So I browsed the personal home pages of
graduate students at programs I was interested in, e-mailed several of them
out of the blue, and asked them about what they liked about their programs.

For the most part, they were wonderfully supportive. I got several very
substantive and encouraging replies, and learned some useful information about
programs I was interested in. I'm very glad I did it.

The situation was somewhat different from OP's --- I didn't want anything from
them (and indeed there was nothing they could have done for me) other than to
reply to my messages. In particular, I didn't entertain the thought of sending
them a resume to pass on (it wouldn't have helped).

So different situation, but for me it worked.

~~~
mandytolliver
Wow, great! And the idea of getting my resume passed on is very much secondary
-- the main purpose here is informational only -- I want to learn about the
company.

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myth_drannon
I will not reply to you or if I do my response will be neutral. An employee
can get in trouble if he is critical of his current employer.

~~~
mandytolliver
I completely agree.

But it's still possible to respond neutrally, truthfully, and informatively.

For example, it's possible to just answer with positive aspects and leave out
the negatives--that's still valuable info.

Or someone can honestly talk about whether the culture is, for example, high-
energy or more laid-back -- each has its advantages.

Are you saying that it is _not_ at all worth cold-emailing a peer in a
potential workplace?

~~~
impendia
I am on the hiring committee at a university mathematics department. As such,
I read a bunch of rec letters. All of them are positive and praise the
applicants. But, some of them say things like "Candidate X ingeniously solved
Problem Y which I, along with Famous People A, B, and C, had no idea how to
do." And others just say "Candidate X is diligent, cheerful, and a hard
worker."

In short, +1 to the parent comment. It should definitely be possible to gain
useful information from an e-mail that focuses on the positives.

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dmourati
When I applied, I used Glassdoor/Facebook/LinkedIn to search through my
current social/professional network and to find people one layer removed from
me who worked at my now current company. I then asked my contacts how well
they knew the employees at my current company. One was able to put me in touch
via email. I contacted the employee via email, said I need 15 minutes to chat
with him and that it needed to be fast because I was going in for an interview
that afternoon. He never got back to me but wound up being one of my
interviewers. Obviously, I got the job.

Short version, showing interest helps. Showing you are connected helps.

~~~
mandytolliver
Good idea!

You got the best of both worlds: Even though you didn't know anyone, you were
able to contact someone who you were already "connected" to.

------
amarantha
We developers keep hearing that we need to do "networking." In general, I
don't even know what that means -- but here is an excellent example of what
you _should_ do.

~~~
jonnathanson
Well, yes and no. The point of "networking" is to develop a web of connections
within one's industry (or within the business world in general). Build a
strong enough network, the theory goes, and you'll never _have_ to go in cold.
You may not know someone at every company out there, but if you've got a
strong network, you'll get a referral from someone you know who knows someone
there.

The worst time to be networking is when you're looking for a new job. (That's
not to say you shouldn't do it; it's just a bad time to be starting the
process.) The best time to network is when you're not looking. When you've got
no hidden, job-seeking agenda in mind, you're psychologically in a less
desperate and more genuinely curious place. And the people you talk to will be
less skeptical or cynical, because they'll see that you're not just using them
to get a job. The "networking" becomes less transactional and more social, and
the connections developed are more likely to be mutually interesting and
beneficial.

That's not to say that reaching out to someone within a company is a bad
thing, even when applying for a job. Indeed, it's better to have _anyone_ on
the inside than to drop a resume completely blind. And it's better to get the
inside scoop on a company that's made you an offer than to accept the offer
without diligence. Ideally, though, you don't want your first contact with
someone inside the company to be simultaneous to your application to work
there.

Much more can be said about "networking" \-- how to do it, when to do it,
ethical considerations about it, social qualms about it, or even whether
"networking" is really a less ideal form of some other, presumably more
meaningful activity (e.g., making friends on an agenda-free basis). But I'll
leave those considerations for a different discussion.

------
loumf
This is commonly called an "informational interview".

I don't get how applying for a job makes you seem needy, though. If there's
actually a job opening and you are qualified for it, then why not apply? I
think of informational interviews as being a way to network into jobs that
don't exist (or before they are posted)

~~~
mandytolliver
Employers often prefer passive candidates to actives--it's the "playing hard
to get" thing.

As to the informational interview -- is that also the term used when the
candidate makes contact to a peer? If so, then it's good to know that the
concept exists.

~~~
loumf
The term is used for candidate generated interviews with whoever they can get
them with (usually through their network). It's often used to generate a
position or to be top-of-mind by a set of companies when they open a position.
It's a short leap from there to what you are saying.

Setting up informational interviews (to me, someone who has been hiring
developers for 20+ years) is a sign of maturity. I think of such a person as
"active", but knows enough not to put a resume in a pile. It only assures them
of a real interview -- not the job (they jump to the top of the pile)

I personally would never apply blind.

~~~
mandytolliver
Thanks! So I see that the concept exists and is considered a sign of maturity,
not rudeness. Good! I think I'll do it.

As to whether it is through my network or not -- I'll try my network, but a
well-phrased email that shows I am a serious professional is usually enough to
get a foot in the door, even with someone who doesn't know me.

------
stevewilhelm
I would try something slightly different. Use a 'Trojan Horse' topic or
subject. Email saying you are trying to use the company's product or service
in a current project.

Ask them questions about the product or service. If they are enthusiastic and
helpful, that will be an indicator that the company is a good place to work.
If they don't respond, or forward you to marketing or sales, that tells you
something else about the company.

After the initial contact, you might then ask questions about the company in
general. Something like: we like the product, but are unsure if the company
will be around in a year, etc. At that point the developer might just give you
the standard company line, or might be more forth coming.

~~~
loumf
Starting off a relationship with a series of lies (even small ones) isn't a
good idea. If you are actually trying to use the product, great -- if not,
there are plenty of truthful openings.

------
dustingetz
I do this quite aggressively about local companies but i know them and have
mutual respect through meetups. Once you have a relationship you get lots of
inside info that they would NEVER say to a stranger.

------
fanshen
I recently did my first job search (about to graduate). I emailed one company
cold and this resulted in a useful informational interview. I tried it a few
other places and got no reply.

Note: I was not emailing a specific developer, but instead the main company
contact info. Like you, I asked to talk to determine fit.

I got much better results when I already knew someone at the company.

------
robszumski
I recently had a interested party connect with me via LinkedIn specifically
because I has _just left_ the company and he wanted to know why. Our
professions didn't overlap too much but he was very interested in what I was
doing now and what I had to say about the company. Struck me as a very smart
tactic.

------
rodrodrod
Yeap. Being on the employed side of things now, I've had acquaintances reach
out to me with questions about the company/work/culture and ask me to pass
their resume along. It's only a few minutes of my time and people are quite
appreciative of it, so I'm always happy to help out.

~~~
mandytolliver
Thanks. For some of these companies, I don't know anyone. Would you just cold-
email someone, even if you didn't have any acquaintances there?

~~~
rodrodrod
I wouldn't, for the most part. Not saying that it would or wouldn't work out,
but I don't feel comfortable with doing that. Going through friends who might
know someone there could help, as that way you wouldn't be a complete
stranger. The only instances where I might do so is if I know someone there
with which we share the same background (e.g. same college) which provides
some sort of common ground.

I've only ever cold e-mailed recruiters (or some job listing e-mail), which is
pretty much expected.

------
wsxcde
I haven't done exactly this but I have "cold" contacted people who I had some
sort of connection with - same college, common friends, etc.

I usually mention this in my e-mail saying something like "I'm contacting you
because we both did X so I thought it might be alright to bother you."

~~~
mandytolliver
Thanks, that makes sense. But if you don't know anyone, why not find some
developer and their email address (a bit of Google-Fu will do it) and contact
them?

To me, it seems polite enough.

Wouldn't _you_ answer such an email if it was polite and seemed to come from a
serious developer?

~~~
loumf
Of course I would -- it's hard to find people. Some companies give referral
bonuses to incent their employees to recruit on their behalf. If the idea is
to get "inside information", I think it will fail (or at least, hope it will).
Not treating company information as secret (especially to strangers) is a sign
of a dysfunctional organization.

If it's just "feel" that you are looking for -- then I think you'll get that.

~~~
mandytolliver
Yes, it's just feel. A peppy intelligent response will give me a more positive
feel than no response or a cold, guarded response.

That is far from a good indicator, but it is a start.

And if the communication goes well, I can schedule a call or continue the
email correspondence.

------
brodyp
Yes, I've learned a lot and made some good industry contacts this way. You
have to do it gently though -- people are jealous of there time unless they
understand you are a colleague worthy of respect.

~~~
amys
If you contact the manager/VP directly, then as long as you write a good email
and include some professional links, you'll usually get a response.

Contacting a peer has advantages, but on the other hand the manager gives you
a straighter path to a job -- if you decide that that's what you want.

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scottalpert
Of course you mean doing this BEFORE any interview. (After the first
interview, hopefully they'd set you up with people to talk to.)

~~~
mandytolliver
Sure thing, this is about the exploration stage when I am just wondering what
workplaces are right for me.

------
mandytolliver
Thank you folks. I'm still wondering though -- why don't we hear of this more
often?

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calcsam
Offer to take them out to lunch. Keep the email short. Five sentences or less.

That usually works.

