
Why 30 is the decade friends disappear - pmcpinto
http://www.vox.com/2016/7/12/12148938/friendship-adult-challenges-solutions
======
niftich
The article recounts several anecdotes that hint at causes but stops short of
authoritatively declaring a set of reasons (and answer its own headline). But
the key point seems to be that social settings like high school and college
result in the acquisition of most of one's friends, and as that group of
friends goes their separate ways and people settle down to focus on
themselves, work, or starting a family, there are fewer settings to get to
know new people. But this is an unsatisfactory conclusion -- if every new
family, every fresh-on-their-own adult, every new arrival in town within the
same age and peer group experiencing the same social decline, why is this
phenomenon so widely unsolved, and not self-correcting?

My hypothesis is that cultural changes have caused interactions with strangers
to be largely perceived as unwelcome. When interactions do occur and aren't
immediately dismissed, they're mentally filed as one-off events not requiring
a follow-up -- talking with the person next to you on a plane, or striking up
a conversation in the store.

There is a wide continuum of behaviors and interactions between courteous
banter and harassment. This isn't the usual lament about how people don't talk
to each other; this is the lament that people don't talk to each other because
we don't want to be bothersome to others, even if sometimes we wouldn't mind
being talked to.

The fact that 'friend dating' is now a real phenomenon, where people
explicitly consent to having a mutual conversation, potentially pre-selected
by interests and appearance, lends credence to this hypothesis.

~~~
bane
I observed when I was growing up, and have heard similar anecdotes from many
other people, that many people attend Church or a similar regular religious
setting because of the social activities and opportunities to make friends and
acquaintances. I know more than a handful of family members who's entire
social circle revolves around church activities -- and many of them aren't
really terribly religious. It makes quite a bit of sense, in most big metros
you can find plenty of churches with congregations of well over a thousand
members, giving you a large pool of possible social connections.

It seems as people in general become less religious, there's less of a default
gathering place. But I've noticed that various types of fandoms seem to be
filling in some of that gap. For example, if you have an interest in old
computers and games there's a couple dozen big shows all over the U.S. every
year and it's my understanding that many people have formed regular
friendships because of these shows.

I almost wish there was a "Church of the Rational Mind" that met for service
every Sunday morning at a local University auditorium, and you could hear
lectures on various topics for an hour, then socialize afterwards. The Bible
provides fodder for a tremendous number of sermons, on many topics, but there
isn't the same kind of focused equivalent book for secularists.

~~~
WorldMaker
Unitarian Universalist Churches are often brought up as a good option for
those seeking a "Rational Mind" church with a decent reach in most cities. As
with any church the communities vary from church to church based upon the mix
of people that show up every week. Most UU churches especially the growing few
that prefer to place Universalist first in the name (Univeralist Unitarian) as
something of a signal tend to draw from an increasingly broad set of spiritual
sources/practices beyond just the bible [1] and sermons/lectures on a wide
variety of topics.

The UU Churches are often very focused on their socialization side, with an
old joke being that the UU sacrament is the social "miracle" of turning water
into coffee.

There are a lot of more secular/atheist attendees of UU churches and UUs tend
to embrace the diversity and the spectrum of beliefs. It's not a bad idea to
give your local UU church a try if you haven't already.

[1] The interesting history of it is that both the Unitarians and the
Universalists (once different groups) split from the mainstream Christian
churches surprisingly early and relatively much more quietly compared to the
Protestant revolution. The Unitarian dispute, especially, dates back the
Nicene Convention that resulted in the Nicene Creed still central to modern
Roman Catholicism and still often referred to by Protestants as well, although
the organized church is quite a bit newer than that originating dispute in
which the Trinitarians won the orthodoxy; UUs will tell you've they've been
bucking orthodoxy for centuries.

~~~
drdeadringer
I just attended a UU church's 150th anniversary yesterday and the main sermon
mentioned this very topic. "We need to change how we do church" type of thing,
because "young people share many of our UU beliefs but do little more than
stop by for one Sunday".

To me it's not a "attract them" problem, it's a "keep them" problem.

~~~
WorldMaker
That's an interesting point. (Certainly there still is an attract there
problem too, because I know a lot of atheists/non-believers/secular
humanists/pantheists don't always know that a UU church can be a kind and
gentle social option, just as the person I was responding to seemed to be
seeking.)

I know that I've long considered myself a UU "irregular", which makes me "part
of the problem". I show up as I feel like it when the whim hits me or there's
a lecture/speaker I want to hear that week or I generally just feel a need for
some coffee with a group I know I can typically count on to socialize with.
Without the implicit coercion of "traditional" services have behind them
telling people they must show up every week, UU can be seen as having a bit of
a disadvantage on that front in keeping/maintaining/growing their communities
over time. (The little UU church that is my favorite in my hometown is not
quite 150 itself yet, I don't think, but probably shares a lot of similar
tales of growth and shrinking over a nearly as long of a lifespan.)

At that point, so far as my advice may be, for what little it might be worth,
finding repeat visitors that become irregulars that become regulars are a
marketing problem like just about any other social club or an MMO videogame.
There probably are things to draw from some of how those cope (or don't) with
very similar problems. Help people feel welcome, help them feel engaged, help
them find reasons to keep coming back.

~~~
drdeadringer
> a UU "irregular"

That's a nice phrase, and it seems to describe be at the moment as well.

------
elktea
It's because your cities are bad.

Wait, let me explain. Around 30 is the age people start having a bit of
financial independence and put down a mortgage on a place in the suburbs,
move, and start a family. Noble and normal goals, except that in North America
(and other anglosphere countries) the suburbs are hugely spread out and
isolated from the city and other people not in your immediate street. What are
the chances your friend group all decide to live in the same suburb, let alone
the same street? You're already spending most of your free time driving to and
from work, how much do you time do you have left after meals, kids and
shopping to spend _more_ time driving to your friend's suburb to hang out?

~~~
skrebbel
I live in the Netherlands. Our cities, by your definition, are definitely not
bad.

A single one of my college friends still lives in the same city as me. On the
far other side, about 8km away. Everybody else moved all over the country.

This matches America, in some way - after all from my city (Eindhoven) to
Amsterdam is about as far as from San Jose to San Francisco (just with better
trains). But still, we don't have urban sprawl and our friends still disappear
at 30.

~~~
mjhagen
>we don't have urban sprawl

What would you call people moving from central Amsterdam out to Haarlem,
Amstelveen, Almere, Zaandam, Purmerend as soon as they have kids?

~~~
skrebbel
I can tell you've never seen American suburbs :-)

Almere might count, if you squint your eyes a bit, but all those other towns
are really true towns in their own right. They have a historical center,
things to do, shopping streets (instead of a just a big mall), a _soul_ of
sorts.

Mountain View is a miserably sad joke compared to Haarlem.

------
droopybuns
I'm 39...so here is some perspective:

If you decide to have kids, you will sacrifice everything for your spouse and
children, and have very little left for yourself. It is totally worthwhile.
You will chose yourself and solitude over scrambling for friendship.

If you decide not to have kids, you will still be incredibly busy, however you
won't have access to your friends who do have children because of reasons
outlined above.

I am in category A. My ideal vacation involves going to a country alone where
I don't speak the language for two weeks. The best part is coming home to my
wife and kids.

Friendship becomes more rare as you age because your friendships don't have
the desperation of youth. It was always rare to find people you truly relate
to. When you get older, you almost don't have the option of wasting your time
with people you don't relate to. It's awesome.

~~~
alistproducer2
I agree. Once you have kids, especially when they're young, you don't have the
time to sit around on the couch with the boys. I came to terms with the fact
that I don't actually want friends anymore. I want relationships based around
common interest in tech, politics or a hobby. Other than that, I'd rather be
alone.

~~~
VLM
"don't have the time to sit around on the couch with the boys"

There's a lot of binary thinking in this thread.

First of all the article is weirdly misleading where the cheezy intro picture
(cheezy as in giant intro pix are so 2011 and its not 2011 anymore, although
the stock photo itself is a bit cheezey) is mom with a "Waltons"-full or
"Bradys"-full herd of her own small children, but the article clearly states
she has no kids and is waiting for her biological clock to ring off the hook
or something. Maybe this "I'm bored" is mother natures evolutionary way of
subconsciously motivating women to start squirting out kids. One thing that is
unarguable is the editor who picked out the intro pix didn't bother even
skimming the article.

When my kids were infants and toddlers I had a pretty good excuse to burn a
ridiculous amount of time on IRC and discussion groups and multiplayer games,
which were kinda the social media of their day. But that only lasts a couple
years and now I socialize more than when I was single!

Kids often participate in scouts, church, after school clubs (Vex Robotics,
etc) and especially sports. Theoretically at least a small part of the
rationalization for making (forcing?) kids to do that stuff is to teach kids
how to make friends and socialize, but it hardly stops at 18... There's two
couples specifically we hang out with constantly during soccer season because
our kids play, and another couple hangs out with us at every basketball
practice and everyone hangs out together and basically tailgates at baseball.
My wife became friends with a mom at a "kids learn how to cook" class and
they're always talking and my wife got her friend's daughter a job where she
works etc etc etc. My daughter is on a bowling team and has made a friend on
the team and no my wife hangs out with her mom quite a bit.

There's a lot of fake sounding rationalization about parents "forcing" their
kids into activities and I think a much more practical realistic explanation
is the parents don't really care if their kid is making lego robots or baking
cookies or playing sportball, the parents just want a couple hours a week to
gossip and eat junk food and maybe tailgate or maybe everyone goes to the
restaurant afterwards, or just hang out and watch the game together or
whatever.

And with respect to the increase in kids programmed activities and decrease in
kids ages, no 2 year old ever asked their mom for ballet class or toddler yoga
or WTF, but plenty of moms and dads of 2 years olds want to hang out with
other parents. The purpose of ballet class and modern dance class is for the
moms to hang out, and likewise cub scouts is basically the dads want to hang
out together, oh and in both cases the kids do something to stay mostly safe
and out of trouble as a secondary thing.

I'm happily married longer than I have kids so this doesn't directly matter to
me, but I've observed that some of the local single moms think the sole
purpose of scouting is to provide a meat market of single men for them, oh and
the kids learn to tie knots or something to stay out of the way. If people
have nothing else to gossip about, they'll start on that topic...

~~~
nommm-nommm
The intro picture is friends at a birthday party.

------
fowlerpower
The crazy thing is that working in a tech startup I feel like I've lost more
friends than any other part or time in my life.

Long hours (which have paid off and I have no regrets about) have caused me to
become distant and not reach out to friends. At times turn down friends when
they want to have causal drinks or just meet up. Now that things have calmed
down a bit at work I find it challenging to just reach out to my old friends
and rekindle those friendships. I try but it's not the same. I thought this
was normal.

I think it's important to be vigilant and not lose our friendships. This
reminds me to try harder, I think without friends and people life isn't as
enjoyable.

~~~
asdfasdfa11112
Now 34. For me, realization that group interactions were not what i like.

I used to have e.g. 64 friends, i would hang out with 8 at a time.

Now, I maybe have 8 friends, hang out 1-1. Can't have more and actually know
them.

Depth, not breadth. That is my 30s.

------
adim86
I think this might be a cultural issue... let me explain.

I am originally from Nigeria and I just turned 30 but I went to college in the
US and ended up living there for 10 years. I have lived in 4 different cities
there and have traveled around the US a lot while I lived there.

One thing that struck me immediately after college was how hard it was to make
friends. Secondly, I realized a lot of friends I made did not have old
friends. Growing up in Nigeria, I still have friends I talk to from elementary
school that I catch up with from time to time and still share a deep
connection. I have friends from high school I intentionally travel to see and
they visit me as frequently as they can and in college I made life long
friends who I talk to every day now. Maybe it was the circle of friends I had
but with my American friends, it was unusual for them to have friends that ran
that deep. They rarely mentioned people from college and I knew of only one
person that regularly maintained a friend from high school. After college,
they seemed to be only able to make acquaintances and found it hard to make
REAL friends.

In America, I feel people are quick to label things that they do not perceive
as "normal" interaction and write it off. Like someone randomly approaching
you at a grocery store can easily be seen as creepy or weird. A stranger or
acquaintance sharing emotionally charged information can be seen as
overbearing/burdensome and so on and so forth. Basically, anything outside
small talk and a logical approach gets red flagged from my experience.

This is not the way things are in some other countries around the world.
Individualism is a strong part of American culture, which can encourage people
to create the best version of themselves, but it also leads to loneliness as
we start to self-actualize.

My parents in Nigeria still regularly hang out with friends from elementary
school and high school and college. They share their ups and downs and life
changes and they are still making and losing friends and they are 60. This is
not strange in Nigeria.

Countries who have a communal culture do not suffer from what this article is
about, they have their own problems but making good friends, or the ability to
are not one of the problems. If people opened themselves up to things that are
different from them, were open to serendipity and supported strangers and
acquaintances emotionally when they can, they would find friends in the
strangest of places.

~~~
koevet
As an Italian living abroad, I can relate to your experiences (I'm not US-
based though). I still have friends from elementary school, which I talk to
regularly. I live in the German part of Switzerland, which is not exactly the
friendliest part of Europe. I got here with my family, and I couldn't speak
the language and didn't know a soul. So, as I'm into photography, I started a
meetup group in Zurich and started organizing events. Now the group has 1000
people in it - mostly expats - and I have more friends than I need to (joking,
but sometime I have to deflect invitations to dinners etc. to be with family).

------
huffpopo
I'm an expat who has lived in 15 cities in 4 countries. I'm 32 and have been
doing this my whole life so it is roughly 2 years per city. I have had to make
a whole new set of friends every time. A few insights that I think my add
perspective on what I've noticed as I've gotten older.

1) The odds that a new person I meet will be more interesting than people I
already know are in constant decline. This is because I let go of my less
interesting friends. As a result meeting random people has gotten a lot less
fun over the years. I'm ok with this.

2) It is far more difficult to make friends in some cities than in others.
Seattle and SF are by far the worst cities for making new friends that I have
ever lived in. Seattle has the Seattle freeze and SF has constant social
climbing and virtue signalling. Best to move to a better city like NY, London,
Sydney etc. (it's a long list)

3) If you can't move and you still want to make friends I recommend joining a
religion or a cult, e.g. crossfit or november project. People in these
environments are signalling that they value making new friends over the cost
of believing something stupid, doing dangerous exercises, and or getting up
and some ungodly hour in the morning. You don't need to stay in the group for
long as there are always people looking for others to become 'disillusioned'
with. Instant circle friends.

~~~
mdlcc
Care to elaborate on the Seattle-freeze? I'm about to relocate to the region.
Is it really that bad?

~~~
huffpopo
People are polite to you but no one wants to hang out with you. Ever.
Coworkers will tell you about a great party they're going to and will not
invite you to come along. It's thoroughly depressing.

I highly recommend joining a cult. AFAIK crossfit and november project are up
there. If you're young enough Maestro Wenarto has a 'personality cult' that is
a lot of fun. Seek him out, tell him you heard that he and his friends are
really fun to hang out with, offer to be in one of his youtube videos (1) ,
bring top shelf alcohol as a gift. It'll help if you're good looking,
outgoing, and a fun loving extrovert. Don't mention the 'cult' aspect ;)

(1) 'cults' require a negative aspect to define an inner group. You don't get
to be in this cult without publicly embarrassing yourself. Still better than
crossfit or november project IMO.

BTW - treat SAD with blue light therapy or you'll be depressed 9 months of the
year.

Best of luck.

------
hackuser
Another reason that I think friendships diminish as people age: People become
much more concerned about status and the value brought to the table by people
they associate with than they do about friendship per se. We split up into
social classes more.

Rarely do you see the executive making friends with the dry cleaner, or
hanging out with their friend who became a landscaper. They dine with people
they can do business with and who enhance their status, and if they still talk
to to the landscaper, they don't invite them to socialize with their executive
friends.

I don't like that social segregation, but it's a reality.

~~~
gaius
_Rarely do you see the executive making friends with the dry cleaner, or
hanging out with their friend who became a landscaper_

It used to be quite common in both London and NYC to see a banker and a street
sweeper or a cab driver, chatting over a fag outside an office building. One
of the unintended consequences of widespread smoking bans is that this
interaction stopped.

~~~
Symbiote
That can't be directly due to smoking bans, since smoking outside buildings is
much more common after than ban than it was before it.

I reckon it's more likely because of smartphones -- all three people are more
likely to fiddle on a phone than cross the street to talk to the other smoker.

~~~
niftich
Aren't people who pull out their phones on break more likely to be texting a
friend or checking a social networking site than doing something devoid of
socialization on their phones?

So they're opting for their existing social circle instead of the company of
strangers; even just based on app downloads and usage patterns I'd hardly
suggest that most smartphone usage is net loss for humans being social.

------
Lonely30s
I'm 34 and am going through a very rough patch (for me) right now. I feel like
I literally have nobody to turn to for help. It's so hard. I've never been
able to make friends easily, and the few I have made seem to have been easy
for me to get because they're already so social and likable. So I end up not
being a primary focus. :(

~~~
Lonely30s
It makes me wish I (cliche!) knew then what I know now. I'd have picked (and
hopefully been able to recognize) better people to try to follow so I could
have lasting relationships. The only person I speak to with any regularity
from my high school days isn't somebody I feel I could call with this, and
they live four states away anyway.

~~~
zemvpferreira
If you live in either SF or NYC, I'm happy to go out for coffee and a
conversation some time. I can't promise we'll be best friends, but we can sure
have a try ;)

~~~
Lonely30s
I appreciate that, zemvpferreira. I'm in Denver, though. Thanks for the offer.

~~~
sakopov
I'm also in my 30s, in Denver and struggling with the same problem. I moved to
Denver 2 months ago and realized something rather painful - I haven't actually
made new friends in over a decade. It's always been difficult and I've been
comfortable with a few folks I am close with. The problem is now they're not
here and I just can't seem to take the next step with people I meet and move
past the acquaintances stage. Anyway, if you'd like to meet sometime for
coffee or something let me know. I'd be happy to chat :)

~~~
Lonely30s
Thanks, sakopov. How do I contact you?

~~~
rgbrenner
I'm also in Denver and happy to meet up. My email is in my profile. (Anyone
reading this is welcome to email me too.)

------
FLUX-YOU
>In the final years of my 20s, I learned how easy, and how lonely, it can be
to keep to yourself

It's not that bad, honestly.

It's probably better to choose activities which have a higher engagement
between two people for actually forging close relationships. Most of the stuff
mentioned puts the focus on something else (preacher, yoga instructor, movie).
Those things don't leave time for adding bits to an ongoing conversation. You
don't learn anything about the other person doing those things with them other
than the fact that they like to do those things.

For nerds, D&D, table-top games, card games, etc. succeed here. It's pretty
difficult to not interact with other people doing those things even though the
focus is not necessarily the other person.

~~~
shados
That last part is key. When i entered my 30s, is when I went from being a
loner (I had been a loner all my life, by choice) to being "my calendar is
always full" social. Mainly because I started mixing table-top board games and
role play in the mix. 2 board game nights and one tabletop RP session a week,
all with different people, ensure you see a lot of people. Then every time you
see those people, they always end up suggesting extra (often unrelated)
things, like going to a movies, a party, going for dinner, etc.

Makes for one busy (and fun!) life.

I do also live smack in the middle of a very densely populated city, right by
a primary subway station, so most of my friends live within 15-20 minutes.
That doesn't hurt.

~~~
cableshaft
Same. Started going to board game nights (and other meetups) and eventually
that turned getting invited to more social events that I can really keep up
with, especially since I need time to myself to create things and unwind. But
I do my best to maintain those friendships as much as I can.

I just hosted a Halloween/Housewarming party a few weeks ago that had almost
40 people RSVP. I would have struggled to get 5 people to do the same 5 years
ago (I had more friends than that, but they were very flaky).

------
iliketosleep
i reached a point where i realised that my friends were more important to me
than i was to them. it was a horrible feeling, but i couldn't blame them..
they were all getting married and having kids - after which my friendship was
waaay down their list of priorities. one of the benefits of being in a
relationship is to have somebody to whom you're at the top of the list for.
friends just cannot be counted on as much, a realization that only hit me
after age 30.

~~~
77pt77
> one of the benefits of being in a relationship is to have somebody to whom
> you're at the top of the list for

Not true.

If this were true sexual attraction would not be the primary driver for
relationships.

That's why you don't see heterosexual people marrying same sex people just
because they are great friends and at "the top of the list".

Relationships (romantic) are primarily sexual affairs.

The whole "top of the list" thing is a recent western "invention".

Edit: I guess you can also say they are economic affairs, but there is always
a sexual/reproductive element involved way before friendship

~~~
hackuser
All I can say is that, based only on the comment (I don't know you at all, of
course) you may be missing out on literally the best things in life. I don't
think I've seen a long-term relationship that matches your description, I
haven't read an expert describe them that way, and I don't think it would be
healthy or tenable. Sex drives, for example, diminish as people age; and IME
relationships primarily focused on sex don't last to become long-term ones.
Another way of looking at it is that long-term relationships with prostitutes
would fit your description.

Sex is great and valuable; it's probably necessary at certain points in the
relationship; but it's certainly not sufficient or the most important thing.
Love, intimacy and human bonding are far more rewarding and valuable (and all
enhanced by positive sex). As another easy example, beyond a doubt anyone I
know with kids would give up sex before they gave up their child; it wouldn't
be a close decision - it would be offensive to suggest otherwise to them.

EDIT: I omitted a very valuable reason for long term relationships: To have
someone to care for, for whom you matter. I believe research (and plenty of
anecdotal examples) shows that, lacking this benefit, isolated people feel
like they don't really exist.

~~~
77pt77
All I'm stating is that all romantic relationships start with sexual
attraction. Otherwise they are friendships. The two are different concepts.
They can and many times overlap, but don't have to. The conflation of these
two concepts is a recent phenomenon and far from universal (far less common in
the far east and in the so called underdeveloped world where survival is
difficult)

> Another way of looking at it is that long-term relationships with
> prostitutes would fit your description.

There's not much data on that but I remember vividly reading an academic study
that interviewed many prostitutes and cases where regular "clients" used their
services for more than 2 decades while racking several divorces in that time
where common.

I was really surprised at the time.

Maybe friends disappearing (like the article states) leads those men (in that
study it was only male "clients") to pay to have a permanent human element in
their lives.

~~~
coldtea
> _All I 'm stating is that all romantic relationships start with sexual
> attraction._

You'd be surprised, but the qualifier "romantic" messes up with clearly
addressing this (since it presupposes sexuality).

Marriage in most cultures have been more about the economic and companionship
part than about sexuality up until recently. Heck, marriages were mostly
arranged in most cultures until the last 1-2 centuries...

After all you can "play" around without getting married too, no need to marry
for that.

~~~
colx
Marriage used to be mainly economic. If anything the friendship was at best a
third reason.

------
alistproducer2
Friendship is an opaque, organic process. No one understands how to "make it
happen." So it pretty much becomes a numbers game. The more people you are in
steady contact with, the higher your chances of that process taking hold.
Before 30, people are in institutions that provide this kind of environment:
school.

Work can provide it as well, if you want it to. A lot of people aren't
comfortable with trying the process there because, unlike school, it's really
hard to avoid someone if things go sour. For this same reason there's usually
a little taboo around workplace relationships.

Then there's the knock effect of having a couple real friends in our youth:
all their friends become our acquaintances and maybe even our friends. The
numbers game at work again. All these acquaintances make our social circle
feel a lot bigger than it actually is. This is what makes the drop off after a
certain age so hard. When we look back, it felt like we had so many friends,
but most of us really didn't.

------
JohnKacz
I have a wise older friend who is fond of saying, "Our attention is our most
valuable asset." Sometimes, depending on the setting, he will add that in our
culture it has been stolen.

I certainly often feel like I'm in a losing battle to keep my attention on
what is essential. I've had 3 close friends move away in the past year. There
are and handful of new people I've thought, "Hey, I'd like to be friends with
them." Each time one or both of us don't seem to have the time to connect or
if we do it's once with a "We should do this again soon."

Still looking for answers I guess.

~~~
ethbro
Step #1 for making new friends: both people silent their phones and drop them
on the table, face down

~~~
danudey
I've taken to doing this whenever I go out, whoever I'm with. I'm always on
call at work so I can't just ignore my phone, but having it face down and
peeking every now and then to see if any of my notifications are slack or
texts works quite well, and anything important goes to my watch anyway.

I find this really helps me be present, especially given I have ADHD and have
a hard time focussing at all.

------
sverige
Not sure why the author "actively resists" having her spouse as best friend.
My wife and I have known each other since high school. She's the only one from
high school I still talk to regularly, and she is definitely my best friend.

We're in our 50s. She has always been more social than me, and struggles to
make female friends. I'm not sure that it works as well for her as it does for
me, but the casual acquaintances and handful of friends I've had since hitting
my 30s have been enough for me.

~~~
solitaire_asdf
> She's the only one from high school I still talk to regularly, and she is
> definitely my best friend. We're in our 50s.

I wonder if this is a generational thing, I've kept in touch with a few high
school friends, and none of them are married in their early 30's.

In the past decade I've forgone serious relationships for studies and work,
and I'm alone at 31. It's sad in some ways, but at this point I'm more afraid
of a bad partner and financial ruin than taking a chance at a happier life.

~~~
sndean
> I'm more afraid of a bad partner and financial ruin than taking a chance at
> a happier life.

Just curious, what would cause financial ruin?

Dating being expensive, etc? Or divorce?

~~~
theparanoid
Divorce

~~~
logicchains
What about prenuptial agreements? Anyone who isn't marrying you for your
income should be open to one.

~~~
snerbles
Courts are known to throw out the occasional pre-nup, depending on
jurisdiction.

------
yaantc
The book "Algorithms to live by - The computer science of human decisions" [1]
has an hypothesis on this in the chapter on explore vs exploit.

It is that in the early part of life, we focus on exploration (extreme case:
young kids), which includes meeting lots of new people and having many
friends. Then as we age, we focus more on the "exploitation" part: focusing on
what we liked best. This leads to reducing the circle of friends to a reduced
core of very good friends.

Of course, it would be reductive to only consider this angle (e.g.: having
kids tends to reduce quite a lot social activities, and often happen in this
age range). But it's an interesting perspective, and the CS part of it may
resonate with the HN crowd ;)

[1] [http://algorithmstoliveby.com/](http://algorithmstoliveby.com/)

------
tuna-piano
How many of your neighbors do you know? In many places in the world I've been
(generally poorer than the US) - it would be absolutely insane not to know,
and talk often with your neighbors. In the four or so places I've lived since
college in the USA, I don't think I've more than introduced myself to a
neighbor.

I posted the below before, but still think about it a lot.

"As time went by, the settlers from Europe noticed something: No Indians were
defecting to join colonial society, but many whites were defecting to live in
the Native American one."

The passage shocked me, as it is extremely surprising, and speaks to the core
of our societal growth over the past few hundreds of years not leading to
maximum happiness. The passage is from this David Brooks column (which I think
is definitely worth the three minutes to read):
[http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/09/opinion/the-great-
affluenc...](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/09/opinion/the-great-affluence-
fallacy.html)

The core thought is that people trade up for comfort (including privacy), but
that they lose out on the overall bonds with other people that are what really
makes us happy. One extremely clear choice: Do you work from home (more comfy)
or an office (more social)?

The work from home choice seems extremely relevant to me. Is it actually bad
for happiness in the long term to do something that's so much more comfortable
(no commuting, no dressing up, feeling of being at home, etc)? When I think
about the best times in my own life, they were the times when I had a close
group of people I lived and hung out with (college, summer camp, etc). I
assume it's the same for many others reading this. So why do we not live more
like that into our adult years?

Originally posted here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12299621](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12299621)

~~~
Immutant
In the late 90's my dad started to telecommute. Never large to begin with, his
circle of friendships started to die off and he stopped really going out and
engaging with the world. He'd wake up early and go to work and honestly it was
kind of sad to see him in his home office intermittently working and then
watching news and refreshing webpages. His view of the world dwindled down to
input from mainstream media and his imagination rather than real interactions
and unexpected experiences. His life was just a cloistered, insulated routine.
Two years ago he got laid off after well over a decade of working from home
(HSBC) and had a nervous breakdown and had to be hospitalized because his
comfortable life came crumbling down and he had spent so much time not
building his defenses and resolve to face any kind of life uncertainty. He's
ended up a frustrated, lonely, newly-divorced, angry old man who a few days
ago voted for Donald Trump. The only positive thing to note is that in the
last few months he's started to drive for Uber and he's actually gotten out
into the world actually meeting strangers in interactions that aren't strictly
premised on transactions (like you have when you buy groceries or get your
tire changed). Since then he's even gotten drunk with a lady his age when she
invited him into a bar he drove her to. He's got a little pep in his step for
once.

------
oelmekki
I'm 34, I totally experience that. Then funny part is that I thought it was a
decision of mine, and not a social phenomenon.

The more time I passed closed to some people, the more I was disappointed.
There was always this time they would do this unclassy or even totally ugly
thing. This made me ask a lot of questions: "Is it me?", "Am I attracted to
that kind of people?", "Could it be that it's just how humans are?". And then
I realized something that was a cornerstone in my relationship with humans:
it's not that they are that bad in intimacy, it's just that they do incredible
and unsustainable efforts in casual relations.

It stroke me that what I felt was a problem was not being plainly "bad guys",
but rather not living up to the expectations. How could they? The way they
shown themselves in casual relations was nearing perfection. I've come to
embrace this. Let's acknowledge the huge efforts people do to be nice and be
part of that, and allow them to "rest" outside those social occasions. I'm
perfectly fine to have no close friends (except those early friends, but we
see each other like twice a year so we can maintain that effort without
problem), and I'm glad to be able to tip in the best of humanity.

------
kentlyons
This old story seems relevant:
[http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4247488](http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4247488)

"three conditions that sociologists since the 1950s have considered crucial to
making close friends: proximity; repeated, unplanned interactions; and a
setting that encourages people to let their guard down and confide in each
other"

If anyone is up for an app/company to address these issues, ping me.

~~~
simonsarris
Coffee houses solved this since the 1600's, not every solution needs an app.
The solution probably involves the opposite: put down your phone in public
places and engage people.

I've made most of my friend/circle by going to the same coffeehouse
consistently.

~~~
kentlyons
I totally agree about engaging with the real world and it not happening
(directly) through an app. However, in my experience having spent a fair bit
of time in the same coffee shop: proximity is easy; repeated unplanned
_interactions_, not so much. Maybe there are regulars, but there is nothing
about (my) coffee shop that led to regular interaction. Nor is there something
to let their guard down. Maybe a coffee shop is a good setting (or maybe
another is better), but I think something more is needed to hit these criteria
beyond just random luck.

------
craigds
It is possible to make friends after 30, and it's very much worth doing. You
have to be patient though, as friendships aren't made overnight.

I'm a moderate introvert and find it difficult to talk to people and
especially to turn casual acquaintances into friends. I turned 30 last year
and about the same time realised that I didn't have any close friends in the
same city any more, apart from my wife.

Spending time with my wife is awesome, but I realised I really missed spending
time with other people, and doing other activities (e.g. video games,
snowboarding or cycling) that my wife isn't really into.

I decided to find a compatible person and try really hard to become good close
friends with them. I found an ideal person at a friend's party shortly after
who had very similar interests, was in a similar life stage, and who I could
easily have thought-provoking conversation with.

For about six months I carefully cultivated a friendship with him from a
distance (so as to not scare him off), attending parties he and his wife were
at, inviting them round for barbeques with other people present etc. My wife
was supportive - as an outgoing person with lots of friends of her own it was
difficult for her to understand how it felt to run out of friends but she was
happy to come along and help me make friends.

For a long time I was the only one making contact, and he would be polite and
hang out, but never suggest things to do or invite us to their place, and I
had to wrestle with the idea that maybe he has enough friends and doesn't
really want me. Eventually we pushed through this stage though, and recently
he has begun to initiate contact and I'm getting the sense that he's really
enjoying hanging out with me, which is amazing. We've continued to have really
meaningful and resourceful talks about all sorts of things (kids, politics,
work, other friends, house renovations, ....) which both of us clearly really
enjoy.

We're still in the early stages of our friendship but it seems like it's going
somewhere. We're not yet at the stage where we could comfortably hang out
"doing nothing", but probably not too far away.

------
beefman
This article is light on content and the headline is misleading, but the issue
discussed is real.

I'm convinced the explanation is biological. Same with interest in music. Of
course I still like music, but occupying myself for an hour doing nothing but
listening to music whilst staring at the album cover -- not any more.

I came of old age (I'm 39) right around the time music was also declining in
our culture generally, so there's a bit of confounding there. Music is simply
not as important for today's young men and women as it was for my generation.
But there's still the old trope about dad's albums in the garage (mine are
CDs), so I think the biology part is real too.

Kids don't like music that much either, nor do they form deep best-
friendships. These are phenomena of adolescence, likely related to fertility.

The ease with which ordinary relationships take on deeper meaning for teens
and twenty-somethings is also one reason it's hard for old-heads like myself
to work at startups. We just don't mesh in the company-as-family zone as
easily. Age discrimination is real, but it's also a bit of a two-way street.

------
mwfunk
Totally anecdotal of course, but I think as people get older they also tend to
appreciate alone time a little bit more, while other forces in life (family,
career) start making peaceful alone time that much scarcer, if not
nonexistent.

By "alone time" I just mean time spent doing something on your own, apart from
friends/family/significant others. It could be creative activities like
writing or hobby projects, or it could just be quiet time spent reading or
playing video games. When I was a kid I sometimes just didn't know what to do
with myself if I was alone, so of course I sought other people out all the
time.

As an adult, it feels like the other way around sometimes. Work/family/social
obligations are just relentless, and sometimes what I really cherish are the
quiet moments away from it all, where I can just relax or reflect or do
nothing at all. A big part of the reason why it's so nice is because it's so
rare, whereas in childhood being alone can feel intolerable, so children
naturally seek out others to interact with.

------
jokoon
As someone in his 30s who is still having bits of social anxiety, I deal with
it the same way my parents deal with it: by just starting small talk by
finding meaningless things to say or ask to strangers, and trying to make the
conversation last.

Being politically correct and trying not to offend is also something you must
do with strangers, or at least be polite and non-aggressive with your
opinions.

I've realized that my own social problems are in fact much more widespread
that I would think, and thus if you understand those problems, it makes it
much easier to handle them and live with them.

------
dragonzooord
One solution to the 'getting friends' problem is to just live with roommates
(And change roommates if you don't get along with them). Even if you can
afford to live by yourself.

This works a bit better if you're single and in major cities like New York or
London (where no one will think it is odd that a person in their 30s lives
with roommates)

------
tootie
Had first kid in my early 30s. Stopped hanging out with friends. Never been
happier. My biggest regret is how much time I wasted on friends in my youth.

~~~
cortesoft
Right? I could not relate to the author's need for friends at all. I am mid-
thirties, married with a young kid. The best thing about meeting my wife and
moving in together is no longer having to go hang out with friends to get my
social fix. We are both introverts, and don't need lots of 'hanging out' time
with friends. We work, we come home and hang out with the kid, and spend some
time together talking and planning our life. Then we spend whatever extra free
time we have enjoying our alone time. It is wonderful.

I mean, I have friends. I play online games with some friends from highschool,
I play basketball once a week with some friends from college, and we
occasionally get together for dinner with coworkers and their families. We
visit with family 8 to 10 times a year. I have no time and no need for the
sort of 'hanging out' the author talks about.

I think a key tidbit the author mentions but doesn't focus on is that she is a
military wife with a husband on deployment and no kids, and it doesn't sound
like she has an office job (sounds like she writes from home for work) Of
course she would get lonely then! Between work, wife and kid, and other
family, I feel like I get plenty of socialization without needing more
friends.

~~~
nommm-nommm
>I play online games with some friends from highschool, I play basketball once
a week with some friends from college, and we occasionally get together for
dinner with coworkers and their families. We visit with family 8 to 10 times a
year.

This sounds like a very active social life to me.

------
gina650
There is a Y Combinator company called Simbi (YC S16) that has a pretty cool
mission, is a fun way to meet people & be a useful/caring friend at the same
time. I think they are onto something because people want more than just a
life full of emotionless transactions.

Just interviewed the founder [https://soundcloud.com/user-925097294/simbi-
ceo-11116-316-pm](https://soundcloud.com/user-925097294/simbi-
ceo-11116-316-pm)

& the #1 poweruser of the site [https://soundcloud.com/user-925097294/simbi-
poweruser-mike-w...](https://soundcloud.com/user-925097294/simbi-poweruser-
mike-wietecha)

------
beenfired
For counter example, I'm in my mid 30's and have more friends than ever, have
a more active social life than ever, date more than ever, and generally am
having the most social, most enjoyable decade yet.

X is the decade that Y happens is a bullshit hypothesis that everyone is the
same. FTS.

------
InclinedPlane
I think it's more a matter of people tending to have fairly "loosely bound"
friends through their 20s. People they went to school with, people they didn't
mind hanging out with when there was nothing better to do. But not necessarily
the close friendships that are indispensable. As people get busier and as the
novelty of "just hanging out" wears off, people find they weren't as close to
a lot of their "friends" as they thought, and those friendships sort of fade
into the background. If you don't have a way of making new friends, that's
going to set the trend for your friend group overall as you age. People who
are younger tend to be thrust into a lot more circumstances where they are in
touch with a lot of peers regularly than adults, especially school. Adults
have work, but there tends to be a much smaller group of peers there in
comparison, and not everyone is good at making friends through work.

For my own personal experience though, at 40, I don't think it's particularly
hard to make new friends, you just have to actually do things and meet people
every once in a while. I'm pretty much a homebody in a lot of ways and yet I
continually meet new people and make new friends year after year. A lot of
that is meeting friends of friends, and of engaging in things like
volunteering and participating in various hobbies and meeting people that way.
Strangers aren't going to come walking into your living room and demand that
you be friends, you have to meet people, engage with them, and actually be
willing to form new friendships.

------
zw123456
IMO, as you age, you become more self actualized and do not need the
validation of peers, acceptance of others becomes less important and you find
that you have more confidence to be independent and start to enjoy solitude
more. At least that is my experience (fyi, I am 59).

------
NicolasBeuzeboc
I made friends in my thirties by joining a local tabletop role-playing group.
We meet a couple times a month, aside from gaming we also have cheerful
conversations while having dinner to break the session that last about 8
hours. We take turn hosting, bringing and preparing the food. Some of them
have kids but make arrangements. A few people have moved away and new ones
joined over the years. Some came back to play with us over skype. They are now
among my best friends.

------
sndean
At least for me, I've found that in order to maintain friendships I need to
see the person at least once per month. (Go get drinks or something.) If it
goes more than a few months, then we pretty much stop talking.

Is that ~1 month timeframe normal? Just curious what other people think.

Looking back, recently, there's been a few friends where I say to myself "I
really should've hung out with them that weekend," because now we're not
talking..

~~~
cesarbs
One of my best friends lives across the world in the southern hemisphere.
Another lives across the Atlantic in Europe.

Some weeks we chat online almost every day. But sometimes we'll go 2-3 months
without communicating at all. When we touch base again, the friendship seems
as great as ever.

To me those are the best kind of friends :)

------
mb_72
Seems to me some geographic map of interested HN posters + contact info might
slow and even reverse this 'friendship loss'; HN 'friendship dating' if you
will. People posting here already would have a lot in common, and even if an
ongoing friendship doesn't eventuate it's always interesting and inspiring
talking with others in your field of expertise.

------
MaulingMonkey
As an overachiever, I got this done in my 20s. It's in my 30s that I've begun
to reverse course when I didn't even have casual friends left in meatspace.

> We should hang out!

This isn't actionable. It's a statement about how it's such a shame the
universe doesn't conspire to make you accidentally hang out with each other.
And I agree it is a shame - however, fortunately, one can make do without such
contrivances!

> Wanna do X on Y?

This is actionable. It's the switch of passive to active in the social
relationship. It's strange and weird, way outside of my comfort zone, and I do
so awkwardly and nervously - but it works! Sure, they notice I'm awkward and
nervous - they just don't care. Or if they do, it's a sign I don't want to
hang out with them anyways. Realizing this - not just on an intellectual
level, but actually internalizing that logic - makes it surprisingly bearable
to be awkward and nervous.

Busy lives do mean the answer is often "I can't make it". But sometimes they
can, and sometimes it's yes to "Hey, want me to send you a text the next time
we're thinking about doing X?" \- I'll take the answer to this at face value.
Some people might only be available 10% of the time, but it's good to see them
when they do. And sometimes they'll suggest a different time - and hey, that
might work too. Few I know will go that far to merely feign polite interest -
they no longer have time for that.

I consider myself rather deeply introverted, and yet I'm playing the role of
the social butterfly in causing things to happen in my circles, if only
occasionally. It's very strange.

I should start dating again at some point. Don't ask me how one works such
strange and powerful magic. Baby steps...

------
RyanOD
When I was growing up, I was very fortunate to live in a small midwest
community and have a very strong group of close friends. I've since moved west
and rarely talk to most of them. Texting has helped us stay in touch, but the
reality is, we just don't prioritize talking with each other over work,
family, etc. We just don't.

And that's okay because these friends...our true friends, never go away. We
never lose them and they never lose us.

We're bound by the many memories we shared - both good and bad. Memories that
will be with us until the day we die. First loves, tragic deaths, school
dances, snowball fights, fist fights, video games, D&D, last days of school,
songs, first cars, etc, etc, etc.

After 30, I just don't believe we're "losing friends". Maybe we're not hanging
out as frequently, but that is far cry from "losing". True friendship never
dies. Don't believe me? Grab your phone and make some calls this weekend.

------
tehwalrus
I've made plenty of friends in my late twenties at work and postgrad with
people who are also computer nerds.

Seriously, just being able to complain about how Python is broken today over a
coffee was a gateway into hanging out to watch rugby (I had forgotten that I
used to do that until a colleague suggested it.)

One thing I am terrible at, though, is remembering to keep in touch with old
friends. I don't use Facebook anymore, my twitter feed is full of complete
strangers, so actually noticing/remembering about old friends enough to invite
them to meet is hard! I can't bring myself to actually put a calendar reminder
in to "talk to so-and-so". I have no idea how the author manages to call a
friend on the phone to talk about random things.

------
meddlepal
My dad when he was about 60 once said beyond your SO there is only business
partners and acquaintances. I didn't believe him at the time but he's been
very right so far. I try to keep my acquaintance pool large but my connection
is shallow to all of them.

~~~
ionised
I'm living proof that what he said doesn't apply to everyone.

I have five people that I consider true friends and they have been true
friends since I was a teenager.

My life would be much poorer without them. My SO is not a replacement for
them.

~~~
nommm-nommm
I'm married and I agree with you. I couldn't imagine my life without my close
friends.

------
andreiw
For everyone the "30" comes at a different age bracket...it's fine to have
noticed, but ultimately...does it matter? Socialization is not the end goal of
our existence. There is no value to try too hard to make new connections for
the sake of making connections, nor to be faning the flames of connections
that had naturally been grown out of. People change. Sometimes they change
together, but most times they don't. Instead of forcing friendship, just enjoy
the memories of what was good at the time when it made sense.

I have a feeling that for some people the thought of being alone with your own
thoughts is the most ominous and scariest thing to imagine. _that_ is what
really needs to be addressed.

~~~
kareemm
We are social animals. Close social ties are one of the biggest predictors of
happiness.

I'll just leave this here[1]:

> The upshot of 50 years of happiness research is that the quantity and
> quality of a person's social connections—friendships, relationships with
> family members, closeness to neighbors, etc.—is so closely related to well-
> being and personal happiness the two can practically be equated.

1 -
[http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/raising_happiness/post/happi...](http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/raising_happiness/post/happiness_is_being_socially_connected)

~~~
htns
>We are social animals

More like murder-anyone-not-from-our-low-double-digits-headcount-community
animals ;) The way the phrase is popularly used is an equivocation.

~~~
hackuser
I'm pretty sure that's wrong. People need social relationships to survive;
it's not optional. People literally go insane without social contact.

~~~
htns
That's ludicrous. There are countless hermits, castaways, and such who
retained their sanity just fine. Even cabin fever is not insanity.

~~~
colx
> Even cabin fever is not insanity.

If anything, the fact that cabin fever is so prevalent should be an indication
that maybe humans haven't evolved to live in very close proximity for most of
the time.

------
shoefly
Places like school make it easy to connect with people you like. Same if you
work in a large social environment. Leave this space and everything changes.
As soon as I left college and got a job in tech, I was surrounded by few
people of my age and gender.

------
readme
It's important to realize that the research mentioned by the article is just
that. It's not going to be applicable individually to everyone. There are
people who make brand new best friends, when they are in their 30s. It's just
uncommon.

------
yason
You get best friends for free when you're a kid and they last till about
midway through your life. After about 35 you must actively work for the
friendships you desire and when enough time has passed, you might have a few
best friends again.

------
chrisan
I think the most important thing in _keeping_ your friends is frequent
interaction. I'm over 35, I can't stand Facebook/Twitter, my closest friend
(distance wise) is 1 state away, and most of my friends are married with
children.

That said, I remain in _daily_ contact with my actual close friends, some
friends going back to middle school, via games and group chats (then IRC, AIM,
now Telegram).

I will say it is rare for _everyone_ to be online at the same time with
juggling life/kids etc but no one goes missing for more than a couple weeks on
vacation

Through games I have acquired more close friends

------
sotojuan
I'm only 22 so it hasn't hit me yet but I don't feel bad about only hanging
out with my girlfriend. I know it's not the best thing to do but after work
(where I get along with coworkers very well such that it feels like hanging
out sometimes) I just want to read, do some personal programming, and watch
films in my bed.

Every now and then I'll see someone during a weekend but aside from girlfriend
things I have a strong desire to be alone[1] whenever I get free time.

[1] Not literally alone but doing something by myself like study an algorithm
or read a book.

~~~
cortesoft
Why is it not the best thing to do? Introverts like my wife and me (and it
sounds like you too) don't need a ton of extra socializing to get our fill. If
you don't feel lonely (and I don't, after a fun work environment and hanging
out with my wife), then you shouldn't feel bad about or obligated to change
your routine. You aren't a hermit, so enjoy your alone time as much as you
want! Don't let someone else's need for more socializing make you feel like
everyone should need that.

~~~
VLM
If you combine your post and the GP and the article itself, there is an
interesting insightful result that culturally we indoctrinate our youth such
that only extroversion is acceptable behavior and introversion is morally and
ethically wrong perhaps worthy of clinical chemical intervention and
definitely worth of derision.

However, at some point in their lives, most introverts take the red pill, say
"F that" to the intensive cultural indoctrination, and move on with their now
very happily introverted lives, they smile while reading a book or meditating
or doing their hobbies or whatever floats their boat. Some take that red pill
before they graduate and have a rough time in school for obvious reasons,
others might not take the pill until they're retired, but "most introverts in
our society take the red pill, WRT to introversion, in their 20s" is a
tolerable disprovable scientific hypothesis that leads to a lot of very happy
introverts in their 30s and up while simultaneously resulting in a lot of
bewildered lonely extroverts in their 30s freaked out wondering where everyone
went to and how will they survive without their vampiric victims, er I mean
"friends"?

So lets say 15 years ago sotojuan's girlfriend for social / cultural reasons
was intensively socially culturally pressured into playing soccer with the
article's author or maybe they would have been in girl scouts together or
cheerleading it doesn't matter in detail, the point is they were together as
kids because society forced them together for various reasons, making the
article author very happy (and probably not making sotojuan's girlfriend very
happy, but culturally introverts are hated, as much as white males if not
more, so there's no problem there) And now because someone took the red pill,
sotojuan's girlfriend is assumed to be happy hanging out with sotojuan
resulting in the article author being very lonely "uh, isn't the girl scout
troop leader supposed to assign me a partner?" "Hello, coach? Wheres the rest
of my team?" "I'm living the way society says I'm supposed to live, now why is
the other half of the contract not being enforced to make me happy?". Because
the women involved are not 10 years old anymore, the original article author
can either be sad, or get drugged up, or work a whole heck of a lot harder
than she's ever had to work before, or take the red pill herself (can people
convert themselves to/from introversion or extroversion?).

Something interesting to think about... nobody likes to be told to toughen up
or work harder, so this explains the intense discrimination against
introverts... At age 13 it seems to serve no purpose other than to
psychologically torture innocent kids, but it actually does have a purpose
when bitter extroverted cat ladies get lonely and angry in their 30s or
whatever. The "mean girls" of the 2000s movie are going to be lonely bitter
cat ladies in the 2010s or 2020s unless they effectively indoctrinate their
cohort against introversion. True, that kind of action is about as likely to
succeed as "praying the gay away" in other words they're pretty much doomed to
fail, but certain failure never stopped a true believer from doing something
dumb before nor will it ever stop them in the future.

------
sunshiney
As I read the responses to this article, I thought of the pontification upon
science-based reasons and, what I experience as simply reality. My life
experience has taught me that as we age, family gains greater dominance as the
source of social connection and support than friends -- and a lack of
immediate and/or extended family results in greater and greater lonliness as
the years pass. Family can range from one person -- a spouse or significant
other -- to a large family including siblings, children, cousins. One's tribe
becomes more important. Friends grow busy with their tribe and those outside
the tribe become "my dear friends" but not your close, daily bud.

I have seen this change occur over the decades and wish I had known when I was
younger. I may have made different choices that would have changed my life
today.

Today I work from a home office, live alone, have no family within 2000 miles
and my home is in country. I love business, tech and the outdoors. I am also
at that everything is work stage in a start up. I am told that I am confident,
smart and independent.

What others do not know is that I am so deeply aware of my aloneness that I do
crazy tests to determine if I die here how long will it take for someone to
wonder about me and find me -- and more important..find and feed the two cats
that live with me?

Right now, it is day 36. In that time not one person has contacted me as a
friend. I am overwhelmed with strangers -- in my spam folder, in my twitter
box, in posts on Facebook

My husband died recently..in his 50s. That same year, my inlaws, my parents
and my sister passed away. My 20'ish son did what sons do...graduate from
college and move to a beach area far, far away and start his life.

Clubs? Civic groups? A community center? None of those are here.

When I am actively calling wives, I can get companionship. But the refrain I
hear over and over is about family or work obligations. There are women who
are out hunting for a male partner. Note.. they are not looking for a female
best friend. I am not looking for a new spouse.

So I wonder how long I can live like this as it is so very quiet and deeply
sad in an odd way. I never anticipated that my crazy busy and people-filled
life would evolve to this stage. I do not recommend it.

------
mcv
I've heard this before, but I'm not so sure friends suddenly disappear.
Friends have always disappeared, to be replaced by new friends. When I went to
secondary school, I lost touch with most of my primary school friends (except
for my former "best friend", but we stopped being best friends). When I went
to university, I lost touch with all my secondary school friends. We did agree
to meet again 10 years later, and about half showed up, but our lives changed,
so our relationship changed.

I'm 42 now, but I'm actually still in touch with my university friends. Most
stayed in or near the same city, we're all in the same line of work, and most
importantly: we kept our monthly RPG sessions.

I also made new friends. To me, my 30s were the decade where I met my wife,
got married, moved to a new church, and made a ton of friends there (currently
playing regular Star Wars games with a couple that originally met on World of
Warcraft). Also, having kids gets you tons of acquaintance in the form of
parents of your kids' friends, and many of those turn out to be pretty cool
too. (I just found out the comic artist dad of a friend my son plays board
games with, is himself a board game fanatic who is always interested in
meeting new gamers.)

Now that I write this, maybe I measure friendship mostly by how often I play
games with people. I suppose others may have different standards.

------
Falkon1313
I'm surprised no one in this thread has mentioned decades of cultural
conditioning to fear "Stranger Danger". That makes us both less likely to
approach others and more likely to perceive others as creepy or dangerous if
they approach us (and vice-versa, of course). Friends mostly come from
acquaintance pools.

When we were kids, we were forced into a casual recurring social situation
surrounded by acquaintances that we saw every day at school. Some of those
became our friends for the long evenings and summer vacations of just hanging
out. They were the ones that we could relax and be ourselves with.

But as adults, the only regular acquaintances that we have are our coworkers.
If we ever even have time to hang out then we have to maintain our work
personas, which is stressful and feels like work even when talking shop is
forbidden. The relaxing, hang out and be yourself friendships are less likely
to form.

Unlike our childhood, we have no one forcing us into a regular ongoing
situation with acquaintances. We have to come up with some kind of pretext
(hobby or whatever), approach a bunch of strangers (something that we're
culturally conditioned against), and set up that ongoing regular time together
ourselves. And unlike school, we can't do it during work hours so there is far
less time for it, as others have mentioned.

There are some third places left, like churches and bars, that provide a ready
context for acquaintances. But if you're not into whatever their focus is,
religion, drinking, sports, or whatever, they don't really seem appropriate.

------
magicfractal
I thought it was interesting that all the match making apps for friends
mentioned are for women to make friends with other women. I wonder if guys are
just too proud for this.

------
tuna-piano
One interesting and potentially good development: Co-living. Apartment
building with your own bedroom and shared common areas. I have no personal
knowledge, but I hope it works and could definitely see it catching on for
those in their 20s and 30s.

[http://www.wsj.com/articles/inside-londons-largest-co-
living...](http://www.wsj.com/articles/inside-londons-largest-co-living-
development-1478794347)

------
johndoez
It's a case of energy depletion. Now I'm in my 30s I've decided to exchange
deep friendships for acquaintances/drinking buddies. This is because deep
friendships involve time, effort and sacrifice. This is fine for when you are
a student or retired, but full-time work and family demands all your time, all
your effort, and all your sacrifice. I'm sure I will re-establish deep
friendships when I retire.

------
wazoox
Nowadays most people (most people reading this at least I suppose) live in a
metropolis (SF, LA, NY, London, Paris...). If you're an adult wit a family,
chances are that you're living in some suburb because of housing prices.

I live one hour or more of traffic jams away from these places where people
cultivates their friendships (trendy bars, inner city restaurants, concert
venues, etc).

Almost all of my friends seem to spend their time around République in Paris.
All in all, either you're living in Paris _intra muros_ and it's a few minutes
of metro away, or you're simply not getting there at all (I myself go there
not more than two or three times a year).

Most of the time and understandably, I lack any motivation to spend more than
3 hours to have the chance of having a talk with a friend around a coffee, or
even a dinner. It's 25 km away, but as far as I'm concerned it's as out of
reach as Marseilles. Unsurprisingly, I go to République about as often as I go
to Marseilles.

So either it's a large party with many people, or I don't go. No more quick
interactions with friends, it's just too much work.

~~~
3d-avid
A fellow from Orsay/Palaisseau I suppose?

~~~
wazoox
No, but about the same distance from the Périph.

------
mathattack
IMHO the difference is time. When you are single in college or just out of
school, you can socialize every night. When you are married, and have kids and
a demanding job, you barely have enough time for existing obligations. Just
less time for new social bonds, or they come at the expense of old ones.

I used to have 2x the personal social network connections (Facebook) than
professional (LinkedIn). Now it's flipped.

------
hellofunk
While I would say that I have fewer close social encounters in my 30s that I
did in my 20s, I also have the hindsight of realizing how superficial many of
my friendships were when I was younger. I prefer having fewer but more
meaningful friendships as I've gotten older.

------
binarysolo
And this is why you need hobbies -- >50% of my friends are from my hobbies,
with work/school/misc friends rounding out the rest.

Also a possible disconnect I felt after reading: "written by a 29-year old".
Sure some of these things are common phenomena, but I think it's one thing to
collect the missives of Louis CK and what not and report on it, another to
actually live it. Having lived through my thirties myself -- the reason why I
don't make many new friends is because I'm doubling down on all the friends
who are around -- and I have no mental bandwidth to keep growing more. The
cost of building one deep friendship >> having pleasant company with a ton of
acquaintances.

------
protomyth
Interesting, must be an urban thing. Personally, I lost a lot of my friends in
the my 20's, but that was mortality for you on a reservation. Those that made
it to our 30s, I am still in touch with daily. I would think technology would
actually help this.

------
drdre2001
Wow, this thread has made me realize that I don't actually have any friends
(I'm 20 btw). I just have acquaintances, and I realize that I actually like
being alone as long as I entertain myself. Anyone else like me out there?

~~~
clarry
I love being alone, but I don't like being lonely. That is to say, life would
probably be much better if I had friends I could occassionally meet up with
and more often stay in contact with without physically meeting.

------
shadyrudy
Louis CK captured the weirdness friends after 30 in season 3 episode 3. This
episode captures the awkwardness of starting up a new friendship between two
adult males. If you haven't seen that episode, you should check it out.

------
jsemrau
Over the last 17 years I have moved continents 5 times and lived in 10
different cities. It is really hard to start new everytime you move to a new
place and at some point in time you stop caring. However it is not impossible.
As a helper I developed this event app drop!in [buff.ly/2fCsdKE ] which always
gives me events that I can go to if I feel I need to talk to someone outside
of my direct family. The app was awarded Accenture Customer Innovation Award
Finalist.

------
Lucadg
I also think that both capitalism (or better, consumerism) and government
(with its need for control) actively push us to isolate yourselves. A divided
society is easier to sell to and to control. So, while we need to actively
find and nurture new friendships (and we mostly don't) these forces actively
want to keep us separate. I know it sounds like a conspiracy theory, but it's
pretty obvious to me.

------
dbg31415
If you and your friends have their shit together pick at most two: social
life, family life, work life. Work and family tend to take priority for people
in their 30s... and even if they don't for you, it takes two to make
friendships work.

------
luckydude
Umm how many of the people talking here have kids? I'm guessing very few.

I was in my mid 30's when I had my first kid, lots of friends. Kids make you
friends.

As a 55 year old dude, I worry about when the kids are gone. Until then, it's
fine.

------
MarcusVorenus
Perhaps people over 30 just prefer quality over quantity in personal
relationships.

------
wjh_
A lot of the discussion here makes me think that perhaps there should be a
coffee meetup HN thread or something similar posted regularly. Comment where
you are, a way to contact you, and try to meet new people :)

------
Kiro
For me the reason is simply that I don't want new friends. I'm perfectly happy
with the few close friends I have even if I only see them occasionally.

------
noonespecial
Perhaps we spend the first 30 years of our lives trying desperately to
convince ourselves that we're not alone... and the rest of it trying to be.

------
peter303
Any set of fri nds not nutured fades after several years. In your 20s you may
drift from your high school firends; 30s your college friends and so on.

------
Entangled
At 20s it is about sharing and cooperation while at 30s it is about
competition and protection. They don't disappear, we retreat.

------
Ericson2314
If life was more like school, then we wouldn't have this problem. Maybe school
could then be more strictly study, too?

------
ajmurmann
The article mentions a dating app for female friends. Anyone know of something
similar for men?

------
JoeAltmaier
Hm. In my 50's, still have my youthful friends. Is this phenomenon
generational?

------
smnplk
It's Sunday 4:12 am and I'm watching UFC alone :)

~~~
eliben
I wouldn't feel so bad about that... UFC 205 should be amazing

------
Fifer82
Friends are overrated.

------
OliverJones
Gotta do a back-story post on this.

Developmental psychology (specifically the work of Robert Kegan) offers a good
way to understand the life transition Ms. Shellnutt described so eloquently.

([http://www.worldcat.org/title/evolving-self-problem-and-
proc...](http://www.worldcat.org/title/evolving-self-problem-and-process-in-
human-development/oclc/7672087))

Developmental psychology by stages isn't just for middle schoolers. It it
continues until we close our eyes for the last time.

Lemme do some broad strokes on this, even though it grossly oversimplifies
things.

When we're kiddos growing up, we go through a bunch of stages of
socialization. Most of us emerge in our late teens and young adulthood into a
stage Kegan calls "interpersonal." In that stage we define ourselves by our
relationships. We learn to tell our own stories by telling the stories of how
we relate to the people around us. "BFF" is a shorthand for that. In the world
of social media, lots of followers / friends / links is a goal -- in itself --
of this stage. "I know this many people."

After a decade or so, may of us make a switch to a new developmental stage.
Kegan calls it the "institutional" stage. Again, to oversimplify, in this
stage we become our business cards or our families. We tell our stories by the
institutions we serve and our relationships to them. Silicon valley rituals
like deciding whether to have job titles are part of the dance of this stage.
So is the glory that comes from having a short domain name. "I am the VP of
design for ZZZ Corp" is a statement made into the matrix of the institutional
stage. "Work-life balance" is a dichotomy born of this stage.

There's another stage after the institutional stage. Kegan calls it the
"interindividual" stage. The transition to this stage is often accelerated by
a layoff. When ZZZ Corp takes away my business card saying "VP of design,"
that can trigger my transition to this new stage. "Wait! There has to be more
to life than ZZZ Corp!" That's right. But could I possibly have felt that in
my gut ten years ago? Probably no.

In this interindividual stage, we resume telling the stories of our lives by
how people and institutions interact. This sort of thing often is mistaken for
wisdom, and sometimes is wisdom.

The transitions between stages can be difficult and perilous times. Some
people don't make the transitions cleanly. Ms. Shelnutt's article describes
some of the struggles of her transition into the institutional phase of her
life. Being laid off "from a job I poured my soul into" is a nasty way to move
into the interindividual stage. "My advice to you is to start drinking
heavily" was Bluto's advice (John Belushi's character in Animal House), and
that's a way to dull the pain of the stage transitions and slow them down.

These stages are all good. Not one of them is better than another.

Getting stuck in an age-inappropriate stage is probably not so good: a
40-year-old who spends a lot of time looking for Instagram clicks will make us
wonder. (If you were wondering, yes I will probably look at this post in a few
days to see if I have upvotes or responses. :-) :-)

Getting stuck with co-workers who mostly are in different developmental stages
from ourselves can be frustrating.
[http://thedailywtf.com/](http://thedailywtf.com/) is full of stories of
software screwups that stem from this frustration.

Are there any lessons besides "life sucks in many and various ways and then
you die" to draw from this? Yes, of course. It can give us a broader
perspective on each other and help us understand our own struggles with
transition.

When we observe the behaviors of coworker and friends, the ability to tie them
to a framework like this one helps give us a little empathy for them.

Ms. Shellnutt mentions church communities. A core mission of many
congregations is to provide a way for people in the various development stages
to interact with each other, and to support people having a tough time with
their own stage transitions. But, in the 21st century people understand
congregations as oppressive loyalty-demanding institutions. That understanding
is often exactly right. Therefore, that source of stage diversity is
unavailable to lots of people.

There aren't many stage-diverse institutions around. I wonder if places like
my fictional ZZZ Corp could figure this out? It looks like Kegan and his
colleagues have just popped out a new book on the topic.

[http://www.worldcat.org/title/everyone-culture-becoming-a-
de...](http://www.worldcat.org/title/everyone-culture-becoming-a-deliberately-
developmental-organization/oclc/907194200)

------
zizzles
To sum up everything in this thread: Life becomes less appealing as you get
older. You lose friends because "career" and "kids" and "my wife would not
agree to this". The novelty and wonderment of being a child is LONG GONE, ie.
your brain oxytocin, serotonin and β-endorphin receptors are all but
ERADICATED from the grudges of the mundanity of your boring 9 to 5 suburban
lifestyle. No time for friends and riding bikes and adventures in the forest
and first-kisses under the tree and kickball, those TPS reports need to be
finished as soon as possible. You are a walking zombie; living in a biological
sense, but not really living. Do not fret because your life is nearing it's
end surely but slowly; cell stress, telometre shortening and calcium
disposition within collagen has you taking an aged "old-person" appearance as
you are scientifically dying from the inside-out as the seconds on the clock
tick and tock and by the way is Docker or Vagrant better for deploying a
NodeJS + MongoDB app?

~~~
untog
Beg to differ. Priorities change. "Kids" are an absolute life highlight, and
come above pretty much everything else.

~~~
hyperbovine
For you.

------
supercoder
I joined a group sex club and have met loads of friends through that past 30

~~~
marvin
I did that in my 20s before meeting my fiancée. Would be a great place to meet
friends with similar interests again if we gave it priority (also on the
platonic level, surprisingly).

------
ar15saveslives
Friendship is all about common experience. If there's no any - there're no
friends, plain and simple.

------
77pt77
I'm not speaking in personal terms. Who I am or my experiences are almost
irrelevant.

What I stated is such a fundamental reality that the fact that it is routinely
dismissed is borderline delusional.

~~~
ux-app
> What I stated is such a basic reality that the fact that it is routinely
> dismissed is borderline delusional.

In that case, 15 years into my relationship we're still blissfully delusional
;)

