
Hawaii Court Rescinds Permit to Build Thirty Meter Telescope - anigbrowl
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/04/science/space/hawaii-court-rescinds-permit-to-build-thirty-meter-telescope.html
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dstyrb
This site outlines the actions that tmt takes to improve Hawaii and science
education in general... 300 jobs. 26 million per year in revenue. 1 million
per year just in paying a lease, 800k of which is earmarked to pay for
conservation of the mountain. The site was deliberately moved to a suboptimal
location so that it would be less visible to people. Includes a statement
regarding this HSC hearing.

[http://www.maunakeaandtmt.org](http://www.maunakeaandtmt.org)

I honestly don't see how telescopes are disrespectful to begin with.
Stonehenge, the Pyramids, countless other ancient monoliths were astronomical
temples... These are literally the temples of the one 'religion' all humanity
shares-- the love of space and the stars.

Whatever. Good job random celebrities on twitter who have never even been to
Mauna Kea; you've successfully done whatever this is. We will in fact “take
[our] toys and play in another sandbox,” because some of us actually care
about the past and future of humanity as a race and our place in the stars.

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Steko
Just because 'science is good' doesn't mean it gets to trump the normal
permitting procedures and rule of law.

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dstyrb
I don't understand. They haven't been denied a permit, they had the permit.
Construction had begun. They were given the go ahead, handshook on a deal with
the state of Hawaii-- giving way more than any telescope before. And now,
they've been cut off in the middle of full scale production.

It's a bit of a sucker punch because, for eight years, survey planning,
software programming, building design, etc. have been underway with this
specific site in mind. There are hundreds of people working on this. Tens to
hundreds of thousands of man hours are wasted if this decision stands. PhD
work on "site predictions for TMT" "Error estimations for TMT" "Optic
Performance for TMT" etc. etc. are worthless.

This isn't a back-yard telescope you just prop up anywhere. This is a
precision instrument that was designed for this exact spot. The optics
designed Mauna Kea atmospheric seeing; the dome designed for Mauna Kea
atmospheric temperature, air pressure and turbulence; the survey strategy
planned for Mauna Kea weather patterns and sky visibility.

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Steko
Yes they had the permit but it was issued in violation of apparent rules.
Appeals to lost investment and appeals to how great science is don't
automatically trump this or do you want to live in a world where one
government bureaucrat's wrong decision is set in stone?

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ekianjo
> In 2005, a court-ordered environmental impact statement concluded that 30
> years of astronomy had had an adverse effect on nature and culture on the
> mountain.

Wow, really ? It's like reading some document from the Middle-Ages or
something.

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Steko
I'm not sure what the disconnect is, this seems like fairly minor language. If
you build roads and buildings where there's nothing it's going to have some
impact, that's all I read from that.

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Steuard
I very much understand the frustration on display here about the setback to
science from this decision. But (admitting up front that I don't know a lot
about the specific cultural context) I'm surprised by the lack of sympathy
being shown for the people who evidently hold this space sacred.

All the (great!) scientific rationale in the world doesn't change the fact
that this fits _really_ well into the age-old pattern of Western societies
barging in and imposing their will on other cultures. Pretty much every step
of the displacement and marginalization of native peoples in history was seen
as perfectly justified by the Western societies carrying it out. Now,
personally, I'm much happier with the argument "we must seize this unique
scientific opportunity" than with "we must seize these natural resources for a
profit". But I expect that from the point of view of the native community, the
result feels pretty much the same either way. I'm not happy with the pattern
in Western history of condoning this sort of imperialism, and I'd very much
like us as a society to quit it.

(And for the record, I can't shake the feeling that if it turned out that the
Temple Mount in Jerusalem had turned out to be the ideal site for this
telescope, most people would not be so immediately dismissive of the voices
raised in opposition to building it there. Heck, I even expect there would be
more sympathy if the best place for the telescope were a "secular sacred site"
like Mount Rushmore: "Don't make Honest Abe wear a flying saucer for a hat!"
the nation would cry, and nobody would accuse them of "tribalism".)

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xiaoma
>this fits really well into the age-old pattern of Western societies barging
in and imposing their will on other cultures

>...justified by the Western societies

>...the pattern in Western history

You should try living in the East. A similar scenario in China would _not_ go
down the same way. The telescope would go up and there would be very little
hand wringing involved in the decision.

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Steuard
Fair point: Europe and its descendants don't have anything like a monopoly on
imperialism (and China in particular has that history going back a long,
_long_ time). I'm presumably focused on European imperialism because it's my
heritage, and because Europe's age of imperial expansion has played a
particularly widespread role in world history for the past few centuries. And
also, because it's the one involved in the conflict in question here.

It's probably worth considering how these attitudes evolve over time, too. I'd
guess that a hundred years ago, the U.S. wouldn't have done much hand wringing
in this case, either.

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enraged_camel
>>The mountain, however, is also a state-designated conservation district.
Opponents of the project have contended that the planned telescope, which at
18 stories high would be the biggest building on the Big Island, represents
industrial development and would violate the rules for such zones.

Since when does a research and education institution qualify as "industrial"?
All over the US we have schools and universities smack in the middle of
residential zones.

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detaro
Since conservation areas and city zoning don't have the same goals and don't
follow the same principles, e.g. when it comes to impact of construction. Note
that this wasn't even the issue at hand, it seems like the court decision was
mostly based on a technicality.

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Wingman4l7
Short-sighted tribalism.

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runholm
Can someone clarify to me why they are insisting on building it on that
specific mountain where it has been met with resistance from day one?

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dingaling
Mauna Kea was in competition with a site in Chile's Atacama desert ( already
popular for very large scopes ).

Technically they were both very close but in the end the decision went to
Mauna Kea mainly for proximity to other facilities.

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noobermin
Any astronomers want to weigh in? If the natives are so against it being
built, why not build elsewhere?

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xiaoma
Yeah, just as long as they make sure their permits are in order first... oh
wait, that didn't work so well.

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mikro2nd
Well, it would seem that their permits were _not_ "in order" and therein lies
the problem.

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xiaoma
The permits were, but apparently the process for issuing them wasn't.

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roflchoppa
i mean its not like they are building housing up there or something. at least
its for science.

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obrero
From 1887 on, foreigners have been stealing from the Hawaiians. Now they're
trying to steal Mauna Kea, and with all that money in play, broke their own
laws to issue a permit. Thankfully, the Hawaiians have succeeded and have
stopped yet one more thing - Mauna Kea - being stolen from them. The people
against them have the same attitude as a thief - they want it, so they'll do
whatever is needed to steal it.

