
Tesla Autopilot retrofit on a classic P85 (2016) - sathackr
https://skie.net/skynet/projects/tesla/view_post/14_Autopilot+Retrofit+on+Classic+P85
======
mikeash
I was not expecting the massively negative responses here. For a site called
“Hacker News,” you folks sure seem to stand in complete opposition to any
hacking that’s outside your comfort zone.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
People are afraid of stuff they don't know about. Most of us work in offices
and don't even own a 3/8 socket set. (Of course they have no problem with some
dude who barely reads English, or whatever language the service literature is
in, performing service on their vehicle because he's a "professional").
There's also the fact that with physical objects you can't just revert them if
you do it wrong like you can with code. People here are used to having that
capability. Working with things where you don't have a near-zero cost option
to revert is going to make a lot of people here uneasy. There's a vocal
minority here who just hates cars to begin with and has no problem saying
things that feed those fears. Then there's the fact that lot of people here
are afraid of liability so they start going crazy when any entity that isn't a
multi-million dollar company they can sue starts modifying anything
tangentially involving safety even if the risks involved are on the order of
being eaten by a shark on dry land in Kansas.

Tl;DR the subject matter and the user-base of HN react in a way that brings
out more negativity than each one could normally on its own.

~~~
mikeash
This isn’t my story, I’m just an early upvoter hoping to come back to find
interesting commentary instead of a bunch of whining.

I think your assessment is correct. Adding even more negativity to the mix, a
lot of HN users are skeptical of Tesla in general and Autopilot in particular.

~~~
danso
Autopilot continues to be advertised [0] as if it were fully or even near-
autonomous driving, so I think those of us who know better are reasonable to
start from a position of skepticism.

[0] [https://www.tesla.com/autopilot](https://www.tesla.com/autopilot)

~~~
mikeash
I don’t see how Autopilot marketing is at all relevant here.

------
post_break
So many people here shitting on this guy but it's going to be the future
pretty much. Hell I have a GM truck and to add a front camera (for off
roading) I'd have to pay like $2,000 for a 480p camera...

That said this guy is brave, not for the mod, but for posting pretty much all
of the vin, the name of his car, and showing the color. Will not be hard for
tesla to find it and blacklist charging, updates, parts, etc. Musk's ban
hammer will be swift and harsh.

~~~
joering2
> Musk's ban hammer will be swift and harsh.

A friend of mine is highly regarded engineer at one of electric car
manufacturer. He supposed to be getting 8% corp discount for buying their
vehicle. He doesnt so I asked him why since he’s so lucky. He told me
eventually the day will come that local government or LE will force them to
update their car’s OS to report continuesly on the speed you drive, similar to
how tachometers work on trucks where cops stop you and can review your speed
for the last 14 days you drove your rig nd either report you to your employee
or guve you a retro-ticket for speeding. This update, he says will come and
nothing you can do to stop it. I take my friend’s word very seriously although
getting EV is as tempting as never before!

~~~
bluesroo
I don't see how this is unique to EVs... Couldn't any car have this kind of
tracking?

~~~
cptskippy
They already do. Most modern cars have what's effectively a black box data
recorder in them. Unlike Tesla however, most cars cannot receive over the air
updates and require you to take them to the dealership.

------
dkhenry
Amazingly detailed write up. I would love to know the reference material used
to figure out the pinout's of the control units. One of the things I miss from
older cars is how hackable they were. It feels like new cars are just a bunch
of black boxes strapped together with no labels on them, so reading someone
able to actually mod one is super impressive.

------
sneak
> _First, don’t expect this to open the floodgates for people to start
> retrofitting autopilot on to older Model S. This was a pretty crazy project
> to take on, and honestly I’m not going to do it again. It requires the
> ability to modify the vehicle’s internal configuration and the ability to
> calibrate and VIN-burn various modules once they’re installed and wired,
> none of which I am disclosing methods for accomplishing, sorry._

:/

The difference between showing off and publishing research, I guess.

~~~
StudentStuff
Yeah, its not great, but unsurprising considering how this person's website
has a floating bottom bar asserting that all rights are reserved. Just looking
to show off, not help others follow in their footsteps.

~~~
mschuster91
Well, VIN-burning could be used to launder stolen or un-QA'd parts from
salvage-titled vehicles, so it's understandable to refrain from publishing the
methods used.

~~~
sneak
Jailbreaking can be used for piracy. Exploit code can be used for illegal
access. Lock picks can be used for burglary. Guns can be used for murder. Cars
can be used to rob banks. Radios can be used to jam communications. Encryption
can be used for child porn.

We’d better not discuss methods. Hackers might pick them up.

~~~
mschuster91
IMHO the decision which methods to publish and which not solely relies upon
the person who discovered them.

Some people might feel fine with the knowledge that their work might be used
for evil, some not.

------
muzika
Excellent write up and project! Wish I had that much patience.

I am suprised it actually worked. Probably required some good connections at a
Tesla service facility / input from someone who knows these cars in and out.

------
syntaxing
Surprising rhetoric in the comments. Serious question, at what point does
working on a car become irresponsible? Does changing the brakes or tires
count? How about changing the power steering fluid? Both of these examples can
kill yourself or others if performed incorrectly. Should only mechanics be
allowed to change this then? I wonder what is the threshold for "common sense"
modifications and what is "an easy way to kill him and his wife"?

~~~
brixon
Should people be allowed to build their own computer or upgrade/install
software? /s Working on cars is no harder than working on other things
especially when they are just swapping components.

~~~
ntsplnkv2
If you build a computer and it fails, I doubt most people will care.

If you try to fix a car and fail, you could end someone's life.

While I'm not against these kind of projects, to equate these things is
ridiculous. Where is the line drawn? Vehicles are far more dangerous than your
own PC.

~~~
conception
I'm edging on hyperbole here but wanted to play Devil's Advocate. You can
easily misconfigure a computer build and have it be part of a botnet that does
substantial harm and potentially causing death. In fact, there are millions of
people who have such computers.

Vehicles are dangerous to the few people around you, but a PC can be dangerous
to millions.

~~~
sp332
At least in the case of an unsecured computer, there needs to be a malicious
actor added who will take control and direct the botnet. But in the case of a
car, the negligence of the owner can lead directly to fatality without anyone
involved being malicious.

------
segmondy
I love it! the last time I tinkered with cars, I was boosting and racing
sufficiently powerful 4 bangers. Glad to see that hacking and modding electric
cars is going to be a thing and the future generation can keep the tradition
going.

~~~
olivermarks
'Boosting' and racing cars within their designed safety parameters and to
defined racing scrutineering approval is one thing, grafting very immature
self driving technology into an early version of a mass produced EV and then
driving it on public roads is something very different. I say this as a very
current car builder and modifier.

~~~
elsonrodriguez
What you're saying holds true if you assume that everyone modding their car is
doing so for the benefit of passing inspection at a track day.

How many people slap a turbo on their car without touching the wheels or
brakes?

Nevermind if the upgrades or tune are sound to begin with.

~~~
olivermarks
I put different, more powerful engines in street cars too, also update drive
trains and brakes. My point is there is a world of difference between
generally understood car building safety metrics and what the insurers are ok
with and grafting immature 'self driving' tech into a vehicle. I'm not
knocking it or saying it's wrong, just a very different project with very
different safety implications

------
ivan1783
Opening up wire harnesses introduces corrosion - I would not trust an
autopilot car with hand soldered wire harnesses. There is a reason Tesla would
replace all of the harnesses if they were to do this...Sure its fine now but
in a few years those connections will start to fail.

~~~
Washuu
Disconnecting or cutting the wiring harnesses does not introduce corrosion.
Assuming the connections are made well using the correct methods it will not
be an issue. From the pictures it looks like they soldered and heat shrunk the
connections which should be a long lasting repair.

~~~
ivan1783
It absolutely does. A wire inside of a harness is a closed system. You have
water tight sealing on the end of the connector on both ends of the cable. As
soon as you open the sheath and expose the bare copper to atmosphere,
corrosion starts. You cannot splice an automotive harness and keep the same
characteristics as when it came from the factory.

~~~
mveety
None of this is true. Wiring harnesses aren't water tight, primarily to
prevent corrosion. If you have a totally water tight harness, and water some
how gets in, it has no way to dry and will cause corrosion. You absolutely can
splice a harness and have it have the same characteristics, I do it every day.

~~~
ivan1783
We are talking about two different things. Notice I did not say wire harnesses
are water tight. Each individual wire inside the harness - the copper inside -
is sealed to the environment. You will get corrosion on copper if you expose
it to atmosphere - exactly what happens when you splice it. By the way - I do
development / testing of automotive electronics and am well aware of the specs
/ test procedure and design decisions of wire harnesses...

------
frk1206
This is amazing! Takes serious guts to open up a car like that! Of course
there's lots of questions like how did you recalibrate the radars later on?
And also how did you get hold of that new firmware to flash?

------
stereo
It’s hard to believe that $9000 + 50 hours of labour + time spent planning
would be worth less than trading in the car for a new one.

~~~
King-Aaron
I guess the same comment could be made about modifying any consumer product.

~~~
mikeash
Or about most of the hobby software projects that show up on the HN front
page.

------
jedberg
"Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they
didn’t stop to think if they should."

As others have noted, this seems like a terrible idea. One small mistake, and
it could kill his wife, himself, or someone else on the road. All the other
self driving Teslas have at least gone through testing to make sure they are
road safe.

I know I'll be avoiding any yellow Teslas from now on!

~~~
King-Aaron
Let me describe to you the 900-kilogram car I'm building, with forged pistons
and a turbo big enough to fit your head inside. It probably won't hold
traction until third or fourth gear. One small mistake and it would kill all
sorts of stakeholders.

People like me drive highly modified cars day in, day out. Though I'd honestly
trust the handiwork of someone who can figure out the sophistication behind a
tesla and it's electronics more readily than I'd trust your general backyard
mechanic.

It's not uncommon to see 40 year old cars driving around with stock suspension
and brakes, that have had a 6.2L LSx engine fitted (as an example). I'd be
more concerned with those kinds of conversions before I'd worry about the one
Tesla in the united states that has a jerry-rigged autopilot.

~~~
swarnie_
> Let me describe to you the 900-kilogram car I'm building, with forged
> pistons and a turbo big enough to fit your head inside. It probably won't
> hold traction until third or fourth gear.

Sarcasm is hard to pick up via a written media so i'm going to assume you're
legit. Where is this thing even legal to drive??

~~~
function_seven
What he described sounds like a lot of street legal cars in the US. As long as
it has turn signals, windshield wipers, seat belts, and some other things on a
short list, it's allowed on the road.

Here's one example:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariel_Atom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariel_Atom)

EDIT: And another:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_MX-5_(NA)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_MX-5_\(NA\))

~~~
King-Aaron
Yeah not to mention guys like Saleen and Hennessey who make some downright
ludicrous road cars. When you're talking about the power levels they make, the
difference between 900kg and 1200kg is negligible :P

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hennessey_Venom_GT](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hennessey_Venom_GT)

Edit, and a more serious note, this is the flip side of the kinds of things
we're discussing though. Not all modified cars are built to equal safety
considerations, and not all modified car stories end well.

[https://jalopnik.com/man-dies-after-crash-in-home-built-
hond...](https://jalopnik.com/man-dies-after-crash-in-home-built-honda-civic-
based-ka-1825681533)

------
lathiat
Great write-up. Elon talked last week about Tesla cars constantly evolving.
Sounds like he figured out workable combinations of different parts from the
software update metadata. Nifty.

Also expecting it to be blacklisted by Tesla next week.

~~~
RankingMember
This post is from 2016 and has been well-publicized. If it wasn't blacklisted
thus far, why would it be now?

~~~
rtkwe
Sometimes even well publicized articles don't reach just the right person for
action to take place. On top of that company culture and their legal stance
changes over time, they could have seen it in 2016 and figured it's not a big
enough issue to their liability to ban the guy that did this.

~~~
joering2
Okay so provide us some evidence that this time it reached right person or
whos working at their legal department now that didnt before that you assume
this time it will get banned.

~~~
rtkwe
You misunderstand I'm not saying it has all I was saying was the fact that it
was from 2016 and he hasn't been banned doesn't me he won't be. Company's
tolerance for things like this wax and wane over time and sometimes news flies
under their radar.

------
ahoka
This reads like a very sophisticated method to kill his wife.

~~~
jacobush
Sort of agree, sort of not. There are people who can do such modifications
safely. The problem is, one might have the belief of belonging to said group,
while being mistaken.

~~~
tjoff
I'd say the problem is that it is pretty much impossible to make such an
assumption in the first place without extensive inside information.

I would not be surprised if there is not one single person at Tesla that would
be confident in knowing each possible pitfall from doing this. And I would
certainly not expect anyone from the outside spending a few weeks on this to
gain that knowledge either.

Very impressive, but in my eyes he have ruined a perfectly fine Tesla.

------
tr33house
Friends at Tesla?

~~~
sogjis
Probably. Otherwise changing firmware would be the main topic of article :)

~~~
swiley
I remember a blog post from a year ago that at least explained how to get root
on a Tesla. So I don’t know if that’s so much of a big deal.

------
ricardobeat
Can't see the point on publicizing this. There is so much that can go wrong;
auto steering could fail due to a slight misalignment in sensors, noise from
the custom wiring, any kind of mismatch in the hardware or software. It is
irresponsible to use the feature on public roads.

Tesla has _all_ the reasons in the world to find this car and take it out of
service. On top of that, he killed the resale value.

~~~
LoSboccacc
> Tesla

Police as well. For sure it's going to be suck getting hit by this and having
their insurance refuse to cover the damage

------
ashleyn
Not something I'd consider roadworthy due to lack of rigorous testing.

~~~
akersten
Seriously. The thought of this thing being on the road scares the heck out of
me. All it takes is for there to be one assumption the autopilot software
makes about the hardware that didn't get retrofitted, and you've got an
accident on your hands.

~~~
AnthonyMouse
People are always so paranoid about autonomous cars, as if we expect cars and
drivers to otherwise be infallible, contrary to all available evidence.

People have been modifying their cars since there have been cars. Sometimes
the modifications are problematic. Sometimes problems result in accidents.
Those cases are rare. Moreover, since the modifications are all bespoke, the
odd erroneous one affects only that single vehicle.

On the other hand, the modifications let people learn. It's how we get new
ideas. That improve safety. For more than just one car.

~~~
lwhi
If the modifications a person makes have the potential to kill members of the
public, I think you're wrong.

This is new technology; laws and regulations need to reach a stage where
they're able to protect against the worst from happening.

People have to take driving tests. Is there an equivalent safeguard for an
autonomous vehicle?

~~~
AnthonyMouse
> If the modifications a person makes have the potential to kill members of
> the public, I think you're wrong.

Literally everything has the potential to kill members of the public. A bug in
your mobile device app could interact with a bug in the hardware and cause the
battery to catch fire in the middle of the night and burn down an apartment
building. If you install casters on the office copy machine, it may slide down
an incline, through a 10th story window and kill someone in the street.

> This is new technology; laws and regulations need to reach a stage where
> they're able to protect against the worst from happening.

There are two classic methods of discouraging harm. The original, which works
fine for low volume modifications, is that if you do something reckless you
get held liable after the fact.

The method you're proposing is to do safety testing ahead of time. But that is
only reasonable for products that are mass produced. If you're going to make a
million of something, it makes sense to analyze it ahead of time because the
high fixed cost of doing that can be _amortized_ over a million units whereas
the amount of harm prevented is _multiplied_ by a million units. That method
is highly inefficient for one off modifications where the opposite is true.

~~~
lwhi
I think you're greatly underestimating the danger involved.

------
samirm
richiebkidd[1] is that you?

1\.
[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfV0_wbjG8KJADuZT2ct4SA](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfV0_wbjG8KJADuZT2ct4SA)

------
steveharman
Apart from getting home from the pub after a few too many beers, what's wrong
with just driving a car?

Despite the billions of $ being poured into autonymous vehicles I've yet to
find anyone who actually sees the need, or even less so would buy one.

~~~
fit2rule
Auto-Driving cars have the potential to help the world cut carbon emissions.
Cars that can synchronise their travel, and coordinate their movements can use
fuel more efficiently.

People are not good at driving efficiently. Over-braking, over-idle, under-
steer .. all of these things contribute to fuel waste at scale.

~~~
notahacker
That sounds likely to be massively cancelled out by people taking car journeys
that otherwise wouldn't happen because they don't have to be awake, sober or
focused on driving for hours at a time, because the cheapest autoparking is
way outside the city centre or because the taxi/courier is really cheap now
the driver salary isn't included.

And electric vehicles are already relatively efficient in energy use even if
driven badly, particularly if charged using renewables.

~~~
fit2rule
Could also go the other way: people ride-share more frequently, even as a
socialising activity, since they can sit and talk with each other while the
car does all the work ..

And, the next obvious step: private car ownership becomes a distant memory.

------
esaysimyan
Impressive

