

Moving to New York: a Guide for Software Engineers - dblock
http://code.dblock.org/ShowPost.aspx?id=225

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msluyter
_The idea that New York cost of living is much higher is just false. You can
sacrifice a bit of space and maybe the location and pay the same amount as
you’re paying now._

This seems objectively false. By definition, if it costs more to buy the same
size apartment, then the cost of living (vis a vis housing) is higher. Yes,
you can downsize and accept having to live with roommates to get by, but that
doesn't mean the cost of living isn't higher.

According to a cost of living comparison between Austin, TX (where I live) and
NYC, you would need to make 140k in NYC to match 90k in Austin:

[http://www.bestplaces.net/col/?salary=90000&city1=548050...](http://www.bestplaces.net/col/?salary=90000&city1=54805000&city2=53651000)

~~~
krschultz
The real mitigating factor is the car. When you cut out car payment/car
depreciation, insurance, gas, maitenance and take that money and put it
towards your housing, it evens out.

I own my car outright, but I expect maybe $100 a month in maitenance, $100 a
month in insurance, $200 in gas, and probably $100-$200 a month in
depreciation. My current rent for a 3BR house with a yard is $1400. I don't
need a 3BR, but I literally can not rent anything smaller that isn't a shitty
apartment, so basically I can't spend less than that.

So what can I get for $1900 in NYC? From what I've seen, I'd like it better
than what I have right now. Will I get exactly the same square footage? Of
course not. I will have someone living above me and below me where now I have
a single family home. But it's an apples to oranges comparison, it would take
millions of dollars to buy the amount of land I'm currently renting and build
a single family home - becuase its a _city_. It's just inherently different.

I want enough room to have a bedroom, a bathroom, an office with my computer
and a pull-out couch for friends, a kitchen to cook in and a family
room/dining room to have a couch, a TV and a table to eat at. I can pull that
off on my current salary whether its in NYC or elsewhere. So a cost of living
calculator doesn't take into effect the fact that although the dimensions of
the room are smaller, the NYC apartment is functionally the same as my current
one that is far, far, bigger.

~~~
larrykubin
Another data point: I've lived in Austin for 13 years witbout a car. I am 31.
I live in what I consider the best part of Central Austin and ride the bus to
downtown for concerts/drinks or to the University area, walk to nearby bars
and coffee shops. 1100 sq ft with front and back yard, garage for 900. Split
with roommate is 450. No state income tax. I understand that New York has a
million options and many city amenities, but I dont understand how one could
say the costs even out.

~~~
potatolicious
It won't even out from everywhere - I would say that living for $450 a month
in a decent place in an urban part of a major American city is abnormally
inexpensive.

The article's author came from Seattle - and I can say without a doubt that
this city is _expensive_. Not NYC expensive, but if you took a nice place in
Bellevue or Kirkland, and included the cost you're paying for your car - it
would come up to NYC rent.

I'm in the middle of a relocation to SF right now, and equivalent rents in SF
are maybe ~30% higher than here in Seattle... When you're in the ballpark as
SF, you're an expensive city.

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rdouble
_You will always a job in any city, state or country. Even if you suck, there
will always be someone to hire you because the market of software engineers is
hot and the numbers play in your favor_

As someone who has tried to figure out how to live in the area I grew up
(northwestern Minnesota) instead of New York or the Bay area, this isn't quite
accurate. In many (most?) flyover states software jobs pay 1/5-1/3 what you
would make in NYC. The only technology needed is .NET or sometimes Java - the
last 5 years of "scaling Ruby" or whatever you were doing, are more like a
five year gap in your resume. The number of available positions are orders of
magnitude less than NYC or the Bay. Often, you can get paid more and have an
easier time getting work if you're an IT dude, rather than a software
developer. The other option is being a remote worker for someplace cool but
you usually need to have a career somewhere else for a few years to make
connections. Of course, the American outback might be a good place to hole up
and work on your own software startup for a while, but as soon as you need to
hire you'll have to move again.

If you want to be able to throw a dart at a map and pick up high paying work
wherever you want, the answer is still being an MD. The worst MD in North
Dakota can make what the best software engineer in Manhattan makes. In a weird
inversion of most employment reality, doctors can often make far more in a
rural setting than they can in a mid-sided metro, due to "hardship post" style
compensation. The career that is a close second for job mobility is
"physicians assistant" - they make 80 grand no matter where they live.

~~~
100k
Your "scaling Ruby" experience is in great demand in Minnesota, as one would
notice from the volume of postings on the Ruby Users of Minnesota
(<http://ruby.mn>) mailing list. At least in the Twin Cities, there are a lot
of developer jobs now. Most of them suck, but most jobs suck everywhere. There
are fewer startups, that is very true.

~~~
rdouble
Cool, I'll check it out. However, I live five hours north of the Twin Cities,
and am not really looking for a job unless its something really cool.

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wccrawford
"The idea that New York cost of living is much higher is just false. You can
sacrifice a bit of space and maybe the location and pay the same amount as
you’re paying now."

Or I could do that HERE and pay less, too. So it's -true-.

~~~
donohoe
Agreed. I just left NYC for Seattle. There were many reasons behind that -
cost of living being one of them.

However, its all relative...

If I were single and wanted to eat noodles and share an apartment I could
easily make NYC work - but things are still a bit more expensive, even buying
beer on tap ($5 for Bud-like-quality, $6 for Guinness in many places). Don't
forget you need to keep up with all those ironic t-shirts and that lomo camera
ain't cheap :)

However, now that I have kids and would want very simple things like a garden,
a good school, in a relatively safe neighborhood then you have to be prepared
to pay a huge amount in rent to be in that school district and to get that
ground-sloor apartment in a nice brownstone (in Park Slope, Brooklyn that
would be close to $4K a month in rent for a 2bdr - thats based on some parents
I know and what they pay).

~~~
dblock
What's that place in Seattle that you're comparing with a ground floor
apartment in a brownstone in Park Slope (the hot place to live for families)?

~~~
donohoe
There might be better examples - but right now Ballard. 3bdr, 2br, loft, more
sq feet, garage, in great school district, garden, separate deck, washer,
dryer = <$2K. Probably pay $4K to 5K in NYC (Park Slope). 35 min commute to
work (or I can cycle)

~~~
nicholasjbs
I live in Park Slope, and those numbers are a bit high. You can get a
beautiful 3BR brownstone (exposed brick, high ceilings, hardwood floors, etc)
in Park Slope for well under $3500.

~~~
old-gregg
Hm... I failed to find any liveable 2br apartments for $2,700 in Park Slope in
the fall of 08, despite banks going bust left&right. And from what I hear it
only got more expensive since then. Ironically, UWS turned out to be cheaper
so that's where I lived.

Haha, this was a typical NYC experience: comparing rents and not believing the
deals other people are getting :)

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zavulon
> Drinking happens in New York every day, except Saturday. On Saturday people
> try to hide as those people that only go out on week-ends take over. Life
> resumes on Sunday night.

So true

~~~
dblock
Finally someone noticed the important paragraph of my post! +1

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greenail
Simple little tip: You can save a ton of money for you and the rental owner if
you go directly to the property management company and leave out the rental
broker. I found several great apartments this way, I called the property
management company told them what I wanted and they gave me a hand full of
keys and addresses and I showed my self the apartments. The brokers make money
from you and they charge the property managers a fee so you can actually get a
place with lower rent this way.

~~~
klbarry
Where can you find the numbers of property management companies?

~~~
notJim
<http://www.nybits.com/> lists no fee apartments Also, there is often a sign
outside the building with the number of the management co. on it.

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lkrubner
This is my current apartment:

[http://www.flickr.com/photos/squidiculous/sets/7215762598544...](http://www.flickr.com/photos/squidiculous/sets/72157625985445247/)

It does not look that nice right now. Those photos were taken by the previous
tenant, who was an artist and put some time into the place. Still, I love this
apartment. I pay $1,600 a month for it. I'm in Brooklyn (16 Waverly Ave, right
by the old Naval Yards, about 12 blocks outside of Dumbo).

I agree with the person who said the main cost savings in New York is that you
do not need a car. I get everywhere with my bicycle. When it is raining, I
take the MTA. The unlimited MTA is about $100 a month, which is slightly more
than $3 a day for unlimited travel by subway and bus. Not a bad deal.

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steipete
I'd love to read the article "Moving to San Francisco: a Guide for Software
Engineers" ... moving there in august.

~~~
zaveri
[http://paulstamatiou.com/atlanta-to-san-francisco-moving-
cro...](http://paulstamatiou.com/atlanta-to-san-francisco-moving-cross-
country)

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cmontgomeryb
An interesting read. I'm born and raised in the UK, 23 years old and would
love to move to NYC in the next few years. The problem for people outside of
the UK is always going to be the immigration process - I'm having trouble
figuring out the chicken and egg problem (job first, or move first?) and how
exactly I should go about moving.

That aside, I found this article interesting, especially with regards to rent.
I loved every second I've spent in NYC, hopefully I'll be there to work
eventually.

~~~
mdda
FYI : I'm a UK national that's been running a UK-majority owned LLC in NYC for
the last ~12 years (check out the E-2 visa). If you'd like to discuss doing
something productive software-wise in NYC, let me know.

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mtogo
Hey look, an interesting article.

 _As a software engineer you’re very privileged. You will always a job in any
city, state or country. Even if you suck, there will always be someone to hire
you because the market of software engineers is hot and the numbers play in
your favor._

Oh, it's satire.

EDIT: Okay, wow, apparently it's _not_ satire. In that case, i have no idea
how the author got this idea but i don't think he could be more far off.

~~~
dblock
If you have a different experience, you should write about it! About a 100% of
engineers around me have succeeded in finding jobs very quickly and had
choices, which is not the experience of 95% of people in this world.

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schleyfox
Shameless plug, but should you decide to follow the article and move to New
York, my startup can help you figure out where to live and hang out:
<http://nabewise.com/nyc> . We also cover many other places that engineers
might want to live.

~~~
For_Iconoclasm
This site looks pretty cool. I'd like to see some more cities listed.

~~~
schleyfox
We're working on it! Our current plan is to get new cities up every week or
two. We perform a lot of curation and research on top of raw data sources to
get the cities in. Any places you'd like to see in particular?

~~~
renshaw
Pittsburgh!

------
T-hawk
One of the best places to live in New York is actually New Jersey. Large areas
of Jersey City and Hoboken and their surroundings are just as easy to commute
via the PATH subway or a bus or even a ferry. Rent goes very roughly 20%
cheaper than Manhattan for similar digs, everything from tiny studios to
ultramodern luxury towers. Hoboken has plenty of nightlife in its own right
too. Car rentals for weekend trips are as much as 50% cheaper in NJ. Bonus:
you don't pay NYC income tax, and NJ sales tax is a bit less than NY.

I've lived in NJ and commuted to NY for essentially my entire professional
life, and quite happy with that setup.

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m0nastic
I'll get to put this to the test in another month or so as I move from DC to
NYC.

It helps that DC is almost as expensive, everything I've seen so far
apartment-wise looks like I'll be paying the same amount of money for a 2
bedroom that I'm currently paying for a 1 bedroom (albeit smaller overall
square footage).

I'll also have an extra 200 a month from not having a car (insurance and
parking), and most other costs seem to be about the same.

If I were moving from somewhere cheaper, maybe I'd feel differently.

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mindotus
Great article! If anyone is in the NYC area and interested in working on
<http://min.us/pages/about> , feel free to send me an email! john@min.us

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frankdenbow
Some are making it even cheaper to live in NYC with a Startup Co-Living space

<http://www.indiegogo.com/scls>

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elefont2
Awesome article, if anyone knows of an equivalent article about moving to
London, please provide a link

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lpgauth
A little off-topic, but how hard is it to move/work in NYC if you're Canadian?

~~~
spolsky
If you have a bachelors degree in a useful field it's very easy with a NAFTA
(TN) Visa.

~~~
alxp
This is correct, but US immigration are quite picky about the kinds of job
titles that they will allow you to gat a TN visa for. The general rule is the
job title needs to say "computer analyst" and "management consultant", and
avoid the words 'developer', 'programmer' and 'manager'.

Also smaller border crossings tend to be better than large airports. YVR and
YYZ are quite strict about documentation requirements and are a bit power-
trippy from my and friends' experiences. Land crossings are better.

~~~
untog
I've actually found the opposite. The people working at the smaller crossings
seemed bored out of their minds, so they went crazy when we arrived.

