
When Asbestos Was a Gift Fit for a King - onychomys
https://daily.jstor.org/when-asbestos-was-a-gift-fit-for-a-king/
======
reyoz
For a short backstory on Wittenoom, an former asbestos mining town in remote
Western Australia see this video
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3LDoI7H1Gc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3LDoI7H1Gc)

I once worked with an environmental engineer who had a grandfather that worked
at Wittenoom. He passed away due to mesothelioma, but her father who grew up
there has not been affected, which is quite amazing given the circumstances. I
have seen footage from Wittenoom of children playing in mounds of asbestos.

Today there are two general types of legacy asbestos products, friable and
non-friable. Generally non-friable products such as asbestos-cement sheeting
are considered safe to leave in place and are only dangerous when cut, broken
or otherwise damaged. Friable products such as pipe lagging are very dangerous
as they easily break down into fibers that can be inhaled.

It can be found in many old homes in odd places. I was removing some old putty
around a window and a friend of mine who was an asbestos hygienist suggested
that it could contain asbestos and took a sample for testing (all clear
thankfully).

In another instance I worked on a demolition of a 1960's era multistory
apartment complex. During construction of the concrete core walls the builder
had used asbestos in the formwork, leaving some embedded in the wall at
regular intervals. This meant that all of demolition waste was considered
contaminated and was going to a special dump at a huge cost.

Finally, there was an infamous case in Canberra, Australia where a company
called Mr Fluffy [1] installed loose friable asbestos as insulation in homes.
A cleanup program in the 90's did not adequately fix the problem and so in
2014 the government finally purchased affected properties and demolished the
houses.

Asbestos is bad stuff, but exposure causing mesothelioma seems to be a bit
like Russian roulette. You might get it, you might not. But if you do, you
will die.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr_Fluffy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr_Fluffy)

~~~
shadowprofile77
From what I know and was also told by several doctors when a family member was
dying of mesothelioma in his early 70's (despite never having worked more than
casually a few times around asbestos in his much younger years), the illness
is strongly suspected of being tied to a genetic predisposition that only
affects a certain small percentage of people.

If one has this genetic disposition, it's apparently possible that even
moderate or modest exposure early in life is enough to cause the (extremely
deadly and almost impossible to treat) disease at some point later in life.
This point can come years or decades after exposure.

And if one isn't predisposed, then even heavy exposure to asbestos probably
won't cause mesothelioma. It is of course still possible to get other really
shitty lung problems from the mineral regardless of genetic factors, but meso
itself seems to be very selective. This apparently is why it's relatively rare
despite widespread asbestos use for decades before recent years in much of the
world.

~~~
userbinator
Smoking also _greatly increases_ the chances:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3749214/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3749214/)

~~~
nikanj
Now to find the construction worker in the 1970s who did not smoke

------
aresant
Build on this even in 1942, just prior to the discovery of the link to
Mesothelioma, we were busily figuring out every use case we could for asbestos
-
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tC8L8ooBSgQ&t=1m8s](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tC8L8ooBSgQ&t=1m8s)

Despite the recognition of Mesothelioma in the early 1900s it took almost 40
years to associate the disease with Asbestos.

My understanding is that this was due to the 10 - 40 year average post
exposure timeline for Mesothelioma to show up.

If Asbestos was discovered today would our contemporary understanding of
materials science & safety prevent us from spinning up factories and use cases
like this?

(1) [https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-
conditions/asbestosis/sy...](https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-
conditions/asbestosis/symptoms-causes/syc-20354637)

~~~
skellera
At least we think about it. The miracle material, graphene, has properties
that could potentially cause problems when breathed in [0]. So at least we
know what to look for and can mitigate.

That said, who knows what other material might come about that causes problems
40 years later in a different way. We will learn when it comes but at least
we’re starting to be more aware of potential problems.

[0]
[https://www.materialstoday.com/carbon/articles/s136970211270...](https://www.materialstoday.com/carbon/articles/s1369702112701013/)

~~~
shawnz
Somewhat related: carbon nanotubes have been shown to cause mesothelioma, just
like asbestos

~~~
jhoechtl
That sounds amazing and seems like a huge set-back to certain envisioned
application areas of carbon nanotubes. Do you have a link to a study?

~~~
shawnz
Here you are:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4243371/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4243371/)

~~~
thedudeabides5
Interesting thanks.

If this guy is to be believed, asbestos and other "amphiboles" are different
from nanotubes insofar as they have small metal/iron content, which you can
imagine reacting with oxygen in the lungs in a harmful way that something made
from pure carbon may not.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuHL7hiFTnc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuHL7hiFTnc)

Now, on the other hand, if those carbon nanotube particles were all as sharp
as tiny diamonds, you could imagine them being pretty bad to inhale.

------
liability
I've heard this Charlemagne legend before but I'd love to see somebody put it
to the test. I'm thinking the tablecloth would come out of the fire soiled
with ash and bits of charcoal. I suppose it might still impress his guests but
I don't think this party trick would work quite as well as the legend
suggests.

Also, 'Salamander Cotton' is a delightful name for asbestos.

~~~
sandworm101
Less a tablecloth, more a placemat. And it is doubtful it was thrown _onto_
the fire, where it would probably put the fire mostly out, rather than thrown
_into_ the fireplace to hang on something over the fire. There are also
translation issues from royal to plain speak. Royals like this rarely did
physical things. When the king is observed to "throw" something, it is more
likely that he _had it thrown_ by a servant who then placed the valuable
object on a rack as planned. Readers of the time would not see a practical
difference.

~~~
labster
> Royals like this rarely did physical things.

That might be true now but historically kings led armies into war, and had to
be skilled enough to fight.

We know the name of Charlemagne’s sword, Joyeuse.

------
ermir
For those that are unaware, if you or a loved one was diagnosed with
Mesothelioma you may be entitled to financial compensation.

~~~
leptoniscool
who's paying out?

~~~
mypalmike
I believe the parent post is sarcastically referring to the pervasive
mesothelioma lawsuit commercials on US television.

------
interestica
The town of Asbestos, Quebec, Canada is planning on changing its name this
year to get away from the stigma.

[https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/asbestos-quebec-
chan...](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/asbestos-quebec-change-
name-1.5375703)

------
userbinator
Franklin's asbestos purse can be seen here:
[https://www.sciencephoto.com/media/530102/view/benjamin-
fran...](https://www.sciencephoto.com/media/530102/view/benjamin-franklin-s-
asbestos-purse)

You may also enjoy this 1940 book from an asbestos manufacturer:
[https://archive.org/details/LegendsOfAsbestosBeingAnIllustra...](https://archive.org/details/LegendsOfAsbestosBeingAnIllustratedCompilationOfUnusualHistorical)

~~~
kristofferR
Haha wow, that didn't look as impressive as I imagined it.

Were it hard/impossible to finely weave it back in those days?

------
coding123
Tiger's Eye. A rock that is pretty much stabilized (sealed) asbestos. It's
pretty popular with kids. You can buy it at rock shops. And yes, if it breaks
in half, get rid of all traces of it.

------
g8oz
>>Asbestos is the only exception; it’s the only rock that can be woven into
cloth.

Not true anymore. Basalt fiber is now commercially available.

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
If remelting counts then fiberglass would also be included.

------
Codesleuth
An exquisite read. The author (Amelia Soth) should be proud of something so
captivating.

------
Mitzz
There is a fascinating 16 minute documentary about an Australian ghost town
that once was a thriving asbestos mining town:

Australia's Ghost Town: The contaminated city Wittenoom
[https://youtu.be/PaHw_bGI2ME](https://youtu.be/PaHw_bGI2ME)

SPOILER ALERT: it turns out the town is not uninhabited.

------
zelphirkalt
Funnily "gift" in German means "poison" in English.

~~~
Snild
In Swedish, it can mean both "poison" (noun) and "married" (adjective).

~~~
zelphirkalt
OK Swedish definitely wins. That's upping it by one, _chuckles_.

------
jiggawatts
“Trump is on our side,” said Vladimir V. Kochelayev, chairman of the board of
Uralasbest, one of the world’s few remaining producers of asbestos, citing
what he said were reports that the Trump administration was easing
restrictions on asbestos use.

Remember the good old times, before the thousand deaths per day, when the
President of the United States stepped in front of the television cameras and
went on and on about the virtues of Asbestos to help out a struggling Russian
town? Fun times, fun times...

[https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/trump-
as...](https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/trump-
asbestos-707642/)

[https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/07/world/europe/asbestos-
rus...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/07/world/europe/asbestos-russia-
mine.html)

------
FriedPickles
Did we overreact in banning asbestos from everything? In many applications it
seems well contained. Maybe we can use it if we're careful about its
manufacture and disposal?

UPDATE: Apparently it's not outright banned in the US, but it is in many other
countries.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asbestos#United_States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asbestos#United_States)

~~~
grawprog
It's not just the danger in consumer products. Asbestos mining is incredibly
dangerous and has led to serious health problems for thousands of people.

[https://mesowatch.com/asbestos-exposure/risk-
industries/asbe...](https://mesowatch.com/asbestos-exposure/risk-
industries/asbestos-mining/)

>Because of this enormous risk of death from asbestos exposure and general
mining operations, many experts consider asbestos mining to be one of the most
dangerous occupations in history.

------
PHGamer
is asbestos really that bad? or is it the long term affects. if charlemagne
just used it a show off thing in the diner would it have really mattered?

~~~
paulgerhardt
Yes, but in insidious ways. In the era of Charlemagne, many other things would
have had significantly higher micromorts. As a dinner guest, I would have
enjoyed the show rather than headed for the doors. At a dinner party today? No
way.

According to the official CDC report which was used by the EPA to ban new uses
of asbestos [1] the gist is that asbestos isn't a traditional poison. We
measure most "poisons" in terms of Lethal Dose (LD50) or roughly paraphrased
"how much of this would it take to kill 50% of subjects." We tend to think of
something, like cyanide, as "very poisonous" if a small amount of something
will kill you very quickly. But we measure lethality in other ways - "lethal
concentration" (LC0 - whats the lowest concentration in air that has been
observed to caused a fatality, LC50 at what concentration is 50% affected),
lowest observed adverse affects level (will this mess you up like lead
poisoning?), lethal time (LT0 - lowest amount of time observed to cause
fatality, LT50 - time to cause fatality in 50% of population), and a host of
others.

Asbestos doesn't have an observed LD50 (at least not in that report). No one
has died within a few hours of inhaling asbestos like they would if, say, they
ate Fugu pufferfish.

What it does have, is a very low LC0 and very long LT0 numbers. Only a little
bit needs to get into your lungs, which unlike the pathway we observe in
cigarettes, will stick around for a very long time, where it will eventually
(on a long enough timeline) cause cancer. Exposure makes these numbers go up.
10% of asbestos mill workers die of mesothelioma, 2% of people who work with
asbestos insulating boats and planes die of mesothelioma or related cancers -
most within 5-20 years. If you're a smoker, the synergistic effects can
further increase your risk of cancer by 90x(!). Other figures in other reports
are a bit lower, but the panic was over the issue that there was no 'safe'
dose of asbestos unlike with other toxins and no trivial environmental
remediation.

I only gave it a scan; happy to be corrected by someone more informed on the
subject.

[1]
[https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp61.pdf](https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp61.pdf)
\- since updated in 2001

~~~
pottertheotter
Interesting info. Thanks!

By the way, whatever happened with Lockitron? I backed it in 2012 and the
device I received never really worked. Reached out and was told there was a
fix coming but nothing ever happened. I've never backed any sort of
crowdfunding since.

~~~
paulgerhardt
The short version is we came out with an updated model in 2014 which fixed
those issues and sold to Chamberlain in 2018. It's now the "Keyless Smart Lock
by Liftmaster" [1].

With a few exceptions, crowdfunding is much more tame these days. You should
look into again. There are some particularly great products on
[https://www.crowdsupply.com/](https://www.crowdsupply.com/) for instance.
Aside from a few COVID delays from March-June, I back and receive projects
nearly every month.

[1] [https://www.liftmaster.com/keyless-smart-
lock](https://www.liftmaster.com/keyless-smart-lock)

------
knolax
Apparently asbestos has been used since at least 5000 years ago[0]. I wonder
what prevented large scale extraction between then and the 19th century.

[0]
[https://books.google.com/books?id=eYHEEWhye94C&pg=PA449#v=on...](https://books.google.com/books?id=eYHEEWhye94C&pg=PA449#v=onepage&q&f=false)

------
aaron695
Asbestos is amazing and has undoubtedly saved many lives.

But thanks to technology we can do even better, we don't live like Kings, we
live better than Kings. (Those of us in the 1%, aka West)

~~~
iamkroot
Has anyone compiled a list of all the everyday things that used belong only to
the fabulously wealthy? Ice cream remains my favorite example.

