
Chimpanzees Spontaneously Dance to Music - dnetesn
https://phys.org/news/2019-12-chimpanzees-spontaneously-music.html
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buss
This looks a lot like stereotypical behavior seen in many captive animals:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotypy_(non-
human)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotypy_\(non-human\))

FTA:

"Many stereotypies can be induced by confinement; for example, cats pace in
zoo cages.[11] Pregnant sows whose feed is restricted bite at their stalls'
bars and chew without anything in their mouths.[12] In laboratory rats and
mice, grooming is the most common activity other than sleep, and grooming
stereotypies have been used to investigate several animal models of anxiety
and depression.[13]

Examples of stereotypical behaviours include pacing, rocking, swimming in
circles, excessive sleeping, self-mutilation (including feather picking and
excessive grooming), and mouthing cage bars."

~~~
fiblye
The left to right swinging is the textbook example of animals undergoing
prolonged extreme stress and insufficient stimulation. It’s probably the most
recognizable sign.

It’s baffling that any researcher was honestly thinking otherwise.

~~~
KC8ZKF
Ya. It’s almost enough to give the researchers the benefit of the doubt. Nah.

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stewbrew
"researchers played music to a group of chimps (three adult males and four
females) and found that all of the chimps responded to the music by moving in
dance-like ways—though the degree to which they danced varied greatly between
them. [...] the chimps had different moves."

So, we have 7 chimps that responded to an unusual sound (we really don't want
to call that danceable music) from a source unknown to them in 7 different
ways, and we have n researchers that were set out to interpret that as dance?
And these researchers can make a living out of that and get published?

p.s. I skimmed through the original article. It looks like science and this
might even be a standard approach in this field (I don't know) but ... I
cannot describe what I think of it.

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nikkwong
No kidding. This is a quintessential example of what is wrong in research. If
you were to just read the paper you’d definitely come to the conclusion that
the researchers want to make—that monkeys dance much like we do. Then you go
and watch the video and find their conclusion...biased at the least.

The instances in which this type of tomfoolery becomes truly malignant are the
ones in which it’s less obvious. I.e researchers have hidden or hashed the
original data and then published something that we can’t unscramble.

I’m literally expecting to hear “everybody dance now” and end up hearing that
charade instead. Lol.

~~~
ChuckMcM
Which is the really super awesome part of science. You find chimps that don't
care when they hear music. You find chimps that make "dance like moves" when
you play atonal non-syncopated note structures, you find chimps that make
"dance like moves" when you play dialog. Then you go through and plot your
results and you show that this particular study isn't really indicative of
what is going on.

My mother once lamented "How can they call that science? That isn't a valid
way to test that statement." And I reminded her, publishing a paper isn't
"science", forming a hypothesis and a set of experiments to prove or disprove
that hypothesis, and then _having others test your hypothesis in different
ways and getting the same result._ THAT is the scientific process. And after
that happens you know something new and you can demonstrate it on demand, each
time, every time, because you _know_ what is going on.

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summm
This is not music, but machine noise. And the animal moves in a rhythm
unrelated to said noise. So I'd guess it's a sign of stress.

~~~
pmoriarty
There is a genre of music called "noise", which is much like what the term
sounds like.

I remember coming home from a noise concert with a friend one day, and going
down in to the subway, where there was a construction worker hammering away
with a jackhammer. My friend and I found ourselves really enjoying it, and
appreciatively nodded our heads to the beat.

Lots of experimental and avant garde music is also frequently described as
"noise" to people who aren't fans of it. Back at the dawn of the rock-and-roll
genre and of jazz, people to whom these were new types of music also
frequently characterized them as "just noise". I've heard the "that's not
music" accusation being thrown at heavy metal and dissonant traditional
Japanese music.

That's not to say that chimpanzees must be fans of what was played to them,
but the realm of music is much wider than most people that listen only to
mainstream music appreciate.

~~~
mc32
I don't think that is a fair comparison/conclusion because you could also then
argue that torture is pleasurable because we can find some people who feel
that (at least a subset of torture) is pleasurable to them and therefore
people who feel that torture is torture should learn to enjoy it as pleasure.

~~~
nsomaru
I think this points to the conclusion that you can literally enjoy anything if
you contact it repeatedly with the right attitude.

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dr_dshiv
What is truly bizarre is how rare rhythmic entrainment seems to be [1].
Powered oscillators naturally entrain to one another, like the synchronization
of metronomes. Since neurons are powered oscillators, it would seem that even
simple animals would be able to move to a beat.

Yet, we are unable to train mice, birds or primates to tap out the beat to a
song!

My theory is that all animals have extensive defense mechanisms to prevent
motor entrainment to external stimuli, since that would make one very
vulnerable. Therefore, they only exhibit entrainment during ritualized mating,
etc.

Humans have evolved to let down our defenses, on occasion, to support social
entrainment. Yet, it is still really hard to dance or appreciate music when we
are uncomfortable or stressed.

One test of this theory would involve giving animals drugs like mdma to see if
it helps them loosen up and appreciate the beat. It works with people, after
all. But I suppose proposals like that would be taboo science. Or, perhaps it
would be unethical to give chimps mdma?

[1]
[https://link.springer.com/article/10.3758/s13423-016-1013-x](https://link.springer.com/article/10.3758/s13423-016-1013-x)

~~~
r34
>>> My theory is that all animals have extensive defense mechanisms to prevent
motor entrainment to external stimuli, since that would make one very
vulnerable. Therefore, they only exhibit entrainment during ritualized mating,
etc.

Wow, seems very reasonable! It made mi think about it in a bit different way:
as other animals are thought as "following instinct" and "closer to nature"
maybe this inhibition systems are way more advanced in humans than in other
animals. It would make explaining dance harder, but would fit great to big
literary topos "men vs nature".

Is it completely your theory or was it inspired by something that you could
recommend?

~~~
dr_dshiv
[https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-13239-6#ref-
CR80](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-13239-6#ref-CR80)

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grecy
I spent a lot of time with Chimps in West Africa, getting to play with, carry
and interact with them a couple of different times [1]

Sitting with a fully-grown chimp on your lap with her face inches from yours
while she grooms your beard is a very, very special experience. It's
impossible to spent more than 10 minutes with them and not clearly see they
are us and we are them. Their facial expressions, they happiness, their
playfulness, their grief. Everything about them is like looking in a mirror,
or watching a ~5 year old child play.

Absolutely amazing.

I have no doubt they would dance to music, and do _a lot_ more things that
show intelligence and higher thinking.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mfdo3s8tPUk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mfdo3s8tPUk)

~~~
xixixao
I am certain we are them. Emotions and feelings are entirely an animal trait
in us.

Whether they are us is a more complicated question. What are their language
and reasoning abilities? Apparently no animals ask questions, even after being
“asked”. Seems that questioning and reasoning is what makes us human
(sapient).

I’m pointing this out because most people would say that it’s the emotions and
feelings that distinguish us. That’s not the case.

~~~
ivanhoe
> What are their language and reasoning abilities? Apparently no animals ask
> questions, even after being “asked”.

I might misunderstood your statement here, but e.g. dogs can understand a lot
of things people say, not just purely pre-learned "commands" but the context
of what is going on. They also ask (simple) questions all the time, but they
use their body language for that. Most of the time it's some form of "what's
going on", but pretty much every dog lover knows the specific "are you taking
me with you" pose & look when you dress up to go out, and they're unsure if
you'll take them too. Now, obviously it's nothing nearly as complex as "Why do
we exists" which are uniquely human type of questions to ask, but IMHO very
comparable to the level of my kid when he was 1-2 years old.

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firefoxd
I haven't gone through all the research to fully understand the argument, but
I watched the videos. Not convincing at all.

If I were to make this claim, I'd show a chimpanzee at rest in the video,
without any music, then start the music. And actual music, not this loud
machinery that would make me sway left and right due to stress.

Edit: not saying that chimps don't dance. Just that this is a very unusual
setting.

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hetspookjee
The cages these animals are in looks horrendous and I think that any result
that comes forward from such an experiment is biased at the very least. With
the current state of technologyouldnt it be more possible to set up these
experiments in their natural habitat? I'm thinking about a large amount of
cameras that track the animals. At least the animals have a better habitat to
live in because this view is abhorrent, and so far I've het to see an animal
experimention plant that has a beter environment for animals.

And in another light, how valuable is this kind of research where an extremely
intelligent animal is out in solitary confinement and is given tests? There is
so much information lost in the process due to interpretation and external
factors. Let alone the hilariously low N size.

Also horses, elephants and a large swath or other animals have been shown to
appreciate music. I don't even get why this party got funded to study an even
higher echelon animal of which it is very reasonable to assume it is able to
dance.

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GrumpyNl
Those rooms look like torture rooms and then that music.

~~~
allovernow
Honestly the choice of music could make this a response to an unusual
stressor, but an expert could probably infer from posture and facial
expression whether they are in distress.

~~~
dmix
Agreed, this is a lot of speculation from short clips by people who probably
don't know what they are talking about or what conditions these animals were
really in.

But I have to say the article description:

> He was subjected to periods of piano music with a repetitive bass note for
> 24 days.

combined with the choice of music in the videos is just asking for the
internet outrage machine to react.

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trhway
upon hearing some very rhythmic joyfull children music our dog when he was
younger would jump on his feet and start kind of happily bouncing around, not
just like running or jumping, more like rhythmically walking and turning while
swinging body (very profoundly shifting weight between the paws of different
sides) from side to side - it was as close to dancing as i suppose a dog
untrained to dance can get, reminded a lot how very young children do it.

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OrgNet
That "music" sounds like what they would play to someone being tortured to
keep him awake for days.

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m463
Birds can dance too - with really good rhythm. Dogs, not so much.

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amelius
They never tested this before??

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stephc_int13
I checked the video and it sounds like torture to my hears.

I wouldn't be surprised if they used the same tracks in Guantanamo...

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Jamwinner
This is kinda disturbing. Animal experimentation that saves lives is being
disrupted while this kind of thing, with no observable value, and clear
detriment to the animal, persists?

Sure, I am curious about animals and music, but this just seems to
misrepresent both.

Someone please explan how I am wrong and overreacting, since that is usually
my rally cry in comments.

~~~
CobrastanJorji
Sometimes science involves learning things for which an immediate economic
benefit is not apparent. It could very well be that a decade or two from now,
our knowledge that animals brains universally react to rhythms is a useful
datum in cracking some critical piece of knowledge about how brains work and,
potentially, how to fix them. Or, alternately, it could turn out to be
practically worthless. But we don't know, and knowing more things is almost
always not worse than knowing fewer things.

Also, your argument assumes a lot of things: 1.) animal experimentation is
being disrupted, 2.) playing music for chimps is clearly detrimental to them,
and 3.) the resources that went into this study (these particular chimps,
these researchers, and their funding) could have gone into some specific but
unidentified better study which did have an pre-observable value. If all of
those things are true, which has definitely not been established, than I would
grant that science is likely not being conducted in a way that is maximally
efficient, but unless there's some hugely valuable experiment that is being
overlooked for this, I don't see why you're disturbed.

~~~
randyrand
tho if there is one field that almost always results in nothing from random
experimentation, it’s psychology.

