
Two Uber managers detained in France over 'illicit' low-cost service - edward
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jun/29/uber-managers-detained-france
======
jkoudys
Every time this topic comes up, the discussion always revolves around whether
or not Uber is properly licensed, or if it's fair for them to operate. What's
often overlooked is the very reason so many of these licenses became as
valuable as they did in the first place, and like so many economic issues it
boils down to one thing: trust.

For example, anyone who's seen more of NYC than just JFK airport and Times
Square knows that that city has plenty of unlicensed rides available. This was
true long before uber: white cars whose driver will only say "do you need a
taxi?", and dollar-vans are everywhere. Yet, even though they offer an
identical service to a licensed cab, people value them far less and fares are
often 1/4 what's paid for a yellow taxi.

When it's an officially licensed taxi, you trust that their fares are
regulated, your driver isn't a violent criminal, and that their vehicle's in
safe working order. This is the real value uber brings: geolocation and well-
designed apps are nice frills, but ultimately people are deciding more and
more that they trust a business with a rating system for drivers + passengers,
upfront rates (even if they vary), and GPS so in the unlikely event you are
detained, you can be found.

Seriously, unless you're a lawyer, I have no idea why you'd go around debating
what's legal or illegal. Instead, as citizens, we should look at the
regulations we have and ask if they still serve to protect people as they once
did, or if they now exist to protect political and business interests.

~~~
Shivetya
When government conspires with business to create a shortage it needs to be
shaken up. The cost to entry for taxi services should not be the absurd
numbers quoted in many cities, a number which only exists to benefit the
existing companies and the politicians they support.

What likely annoys these people the most is that their little game is being
called out. Regulation has its place, that is not stifling competition and
restricting people from having jobs

~~~
mcuk2k
The good thing about governments conspiring to create a shortage is that taxi
drivers make a reasonable income.

This is an aspect that Silcon-Valley-style technology platforms have no
apparent interest in supporting. For example, as time progresses Adsense might
sign up more and more publisher capacity, yet that pushes down the income and
discourages respectable publishers from using the service.

You go from a fairly well respected public service, to something that's got a
nice brand and run by virtual slaves.

~~~
dylanjermiah
A large majority of Uber drivers are former taxi drivers, you don't have to
lease a vehicle for 45k per year, choose hours of work, and you have more
control over passengers bad behaviour (two way rating system).

~~~
mrgoldenbrown
And what happens when Uber continues to lower the rates Uber drivers earn at?
Eventually taxis will look like a better job again.

~~~
dylanjermiah
That's a meaningless hypothetical. Why would Uber do that? They have every
incentive to make sure that drivers are getting paid as much as possible and
that riders have the cheapest prices possible, they literally have hundreds of
people working on finding the equilibrium.

~~~
mcuk2k
Once you become the de facto platform and you move from a start-up to a
multinational public company, there's no longer a need to look after the
contractors. There's added pressure to milk those contractors for all they've
got. The contractors are easily replaceable and will live under constant
threat of upcoming automation.

~~~
dylanjermiah
No. Uber will always have the incentive to keep drivers happy, as they are
competing with every other job. If another position values their time more
they will move there.

On the topic of self driving cars, full saturation is at least a couple of
decades away.

------
crdb
The context is important. France happens to have a very influential taxi
monopoly headquartered in Paris. The broad lines have been sketched by a
recent Nouvel Obs article [1].

Amongst other things, the former head of the French FBI is now chairman of one
of the group's taxi companies, right after he delivered an internal government
report skewering taxi competitors (and that was probably just the tip of the
iceberg). No new licenses were given in Paris between 1990 and 2002 despite a
49% increase in airport passenger traffic and 17% increase in population.

The system itself is designed to maximise revenue; for example, taxis will not
be allocated on the basis of proximity to the customer, but on the basis of
which has waited longest, time that (according to the Nouvel Obs anyway - I
haven't taken a taxi in Paris in ages) is charged to the customer immediately.
Drivers pay a fortune to the company and often work 7-day weeks to make ends
meet as a result. This, by the way, is why drivers on call in Paris will often
refuse to drive you if your destination is too close.

Uber's strategy was simple, to gain so much popularity as to make it extremely
expensive for the lobbying effort to continue. Rule of law? Personally, I do
not think that people buying themselves favorable laws should be legal and
defendable. For both executives to be on police watch when they are clearly
not a flight risk is a sign that the monopoly is well connected and has
obtained favour with the government.

[1] edit: link is now offline, Web Archive:
[https://web.archive.org/web/20150317180809/http://tempsreel....](https://web.archive.org/web/20150317180809/http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/economie/20150212.OBS2398/comment-
le-roi-des-taxis-compte-contrer-uber-au-detriment-des-clients.html)

~~~
at-fates-hands
Are there no unions in France? I thought this was a big part of the argument
as well.

------
david_p
So as to make things clear, UberPop has been outlawed in France months ago but
keeps operating.

The fines are considered "operating costs" by UberPop, who takes care of
paying the fines when UberPop drivers are getting caught.

You can remove the quotes at illicit.

~~~
aikah
To be accurate, the website and app itself (UberPop) aren't outlawed YET.

BUT it is illegal for UberPop drivers to continue taking clients and driving
for UBER.

So technically UberPop isn't illegal, UberPop drivers ARE on the other hand
performing an illegal activity.

HOWEVER in France, it is illegal to promote an illegal activity. Yesterday I
heard an ad on GenerationFM promoting Uber and recruiting drivers.

So on this ground, managers at Uber France can be sued.

I think it's foolish to work for Uber France. Uber might pay you a lawyer or
any fines if you get sued, but If you're sentenced and sent to prison? is it
worth it to go to prison for Uber? or to have a record? because you're career
will basically be over. And good luck moving to US with a record even if it is
what Uber promised you if it would happen.

------
steve19
I am astounded that the French government is doing exactly what the violent
Taxi protesters (rioters?) wanted. This sends a clear message to any other
groups: burn enough cars and blockade an airport and you will get what you
want.

I thought the Taxi drivers would be condemned by politicians and the French
public.

~~~
aikah
Well that's how you get stuffs in France, taxis, farmers, truckers,
nurses,alike... If you want something from the government in France you've got
to set on fire, or destroy something in Paris or you won't be heard.

No surprise here.

It has always been that way. Elections are meaningless in this country, chaos
in the streets of Paris has always been more effective than a vote to bend a
government that knows nothing but reaction, that never acts nor has a long
term political vision for this country.

Everything makes perfect sense. The french government is always in that
defensive position. That's an unfortunate but direct consequence of the
structure of the 5th republic.

------
seren
Just to be clear, because it is not mentioned in the article, this is about
UberPop. Uber is legal with some caveats.

------
ddalex_ro
I like Uber's service, but it's obvious that they are a taxi. A better taxi
company, but a taxi; and they should get their licenses in order.

~~~
dylanjermiah
The licenses are what made the taxi system so inefficient.

~~~
therobot24
you are correct, but blatantly ignoring the law is usually not the best way to
fix that

~~~
murbard2
Tell that to Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks, Ghandi...

~~~
ginko
Yes, because providing unlicensed taxi service is the same thing as civil
rights.

~~~
murbard2
First of all, the OP was making a general point about the best way to go about
challenging existing laws. Since the point is general, a counter example
suffice, even if it differs from the specifics of the situation being
discussed. If those specifics make a difference in the OP's point, the onus of
outlining why they make a difference is on the OP. This is how logical
reasoning works, but every. single. time. someone points out a counter example
to a general statement, there is someone like who who comes and moves the
goalpost by saying "oh yeah, because X is like Y", and we're all worse off
because of this lack of debating etiquette.

Second, you would be wrong to trivialize the importance of expanding the
offering in cabs. Uber will go into neighborhood where Taxis don't, they can
also be substantially cheaper depending on the city and the specifics. Having
access to a ride late at night can mean the difference between being raped or
not raped for many people living in high crime neighborhood. In addition, Uber
provides a livelihood for a large number of drivers. The taxis that it compete
are generally renting their license from a large company who is collecting the
monopoly rent.

~~~
ginko
>Uber will go into neighborhood where Taxis don't, they can also be
substantially cheaper depending on the city and the specifics. Having access
to a ride late at night can mean the difference between being raped or not
raped for many people living in high crime neighborhood.

This sounds like an American problem. Part of being a licensed taxi driver in
Europe is that you can't refuse service in certain parts of town. Same for
taxi hours. I have never not gotten a taxi by phone in Vienna.

------
jwildeboer
Interesting. I read French articles that claim two drivers were arrested, not
managers. [http://www.europe1.fr/faits-divers/uberpop-deux-
chauffeurs-e...](http://www.europe1.fr/faits-divers/uberpop-deux-chauffeurs-
en-garde-a-vue-a-paris-1361708)

------
karambahh
They are also detained for unlawful data retention (the 1981 "Information &
Libertés" law, which is seen by many as very strict regarding personal data).

It seems likely they will get them either directly or indirectly (ala
"AlCapone" who got caught on tax related offences, not alcohol smuggling).

------
ForHackernews
Good. You don't get to just pay a fine and ignore the law because you've got
the money. Would that the US followed this example and started sentencing
flagrant lawbreakers to jail time.

------
makeitsuckless
> The standoff reflects larger tensions in France over how to regulate fast-
> moving technology and stay globally competitive while ensuring labour
> protections.

This kind of biased journalism just pisses me off. Uber has nothing to do with
"fast-moving technology". They could have done this service with on old
fashioned phone dispatch in the 50s and it would still be the same illegal
operation.

Sure, they've added some bells and whistle, but that merely serves to disguise
what it really is: offering a cheaper service by breaking multiple laws.

Uber is about breaking the law, not about technology, and I'm glad they
finally get treated as the criminals they are.

~~~
hyperion2010
They pay the fines and the fines are cheaper than complying with laws designed
to protect monopolistic interests. You can call it illegal, but when the
economics works out such that the fines for something illegal are less than
the competing regulated service something needs to change.

~~~
GFK_of_xmaspast
Something like "start arresting executives"?

