
Passenger airlines start shifting idled planes into freight business - JumpCrisscross
https://www.wsj.com/articles/passenger-airlines-start-shifting-idled-planes-into-freight-business-11584737793
======
duxup
I have some visibility to the logistics industry.

It's a strange and old fashioned industry, but also fairly flexible.

This seems more like a move for the airlines than a serious need outside of a
few lanes. Generally speaking there isn't a lack of logistics capacity right
now from what I've seen. Airlines have been in the logistics game for ages
anyway. The amount they participate / effort ebs and flows at times, but
they've always been there.

~~~
twomoretime
>Generally speaking there isn't a lack of logistics capacity right now

How sure are you about that? In my large Texas city, grocery stores have been
packed all day every day for like 2 weeks. How long can out country operate at
such capacity before supply shortages start? Stores are already unable to keep
shelves stocked.,.

~~~
foota
How long can our country continue to purchase at the current rate before
everyone has built a stockpile?

~~~
Androider
What percentage of meals were previously consumed outside the home, at
workplaces, schools and daycares? Add all of those to the baseline grocery
shopping rates pre-coronavirus, add on some anxiety factor, and you'll have
the new baseline.

Similar for toilet paper in stores. Previously you spent 8-12 hours at work
using your company's supply, now you have to use and buy your own. The in-home
usage per day has pretty much doubled and shifted to retail.

~~~
jedberg
> now you have to use and buy your own.

Yeah, but the office was buying it at Costco too, and now they aren't. The
total demand for TP hasn't increased, it's just shifted. Once everyone has a
stockpile at home, they won't buy it anymore.

Same with food. The restaurants were buying it and now consumers are instead.
The demand is shifting but the level is the same.

~~~
luckylion
Don't consumers have more food waste than restaurants? I believe I read
something about that a while ago.

You're right for TP though. Imho that was simply a reaction to people
understanding "you might have to be quarantined at home" as "you can't go out
or get things delivered during that time, ever", and preparing adequately.
Once they have their stash and/or realize that quarantined doesn't mean post-
apocalyptic head-for-the-bunker, they'll relax and return to normal rates.
It's important to quickly stock the shelves though, empty shelves make people
nervous, and they'll overreact when they're nervous, buying more than they
need ("the government and companies can't handle this situation, better stock
up") and thus increase the problem.

~~~
thechao
Any future movies that take place in an apocalypse and _don’t_ reference
toilet paper are going to have real fidelity issues.

------
ryanmarsh
All of the major airlines already have cargo departments (American calls it
"cargo" anyway, not freight). Just for those who don't have experience in the
industry. It's not like American Airlines is suddenly leasing planes to FedEx
like one might guess. The unfortunate aspect is sending something through the
cargo department of a passenger airline is a much bigger pain in the ass than
going with UPS or FedEx. Their package tracking and delivery estimates are
substandard relative to UPS/FedEx. Also they don't deliver to businesses or
residences, it's airport to airport.

~~~
jackschultz
Isn't this why they charge for extra bags? Because passenger bags takes up
space and weight that other people want to pay for? People argue about whether
that's fair or not to charge passengers for more baggage when they're already
paying, but thinking about a plane being for transfer of things, we can see
why they charge more.

~~~
bluGill
I'm not sure if they can put freight on the same flight as passengers anymore.
Before 911 it was done.

~~~
Symbiote
They do, certainly.

You have probably seen these being loaded onto passenger planes at airports:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_load_device](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_load_device)

This is the last serious terrorist incident I recall:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_transatlantic_aircraft_bo...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_transatlantic_aircraft_bomb_plot)

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chris_va
(maybe not a useful question, given the logistical difficulty)

Could idled planes be re-tasked as medivac flights, to load balance
hospitalization around the country and avoid locally overloaded resources?

~~~
tomp
I was thinking about this the other day, when Croatia, besides dealing with
coronavirus and its fallout, also got hit by a pretty powerful earthquake and
had to evacuate a birthing ward / hospital.

But then I asked myself, that given how much pain and annoyances us _regular_
(and healthy) passengers have to go through on perfectly ordinary flights, is
it really feasible to be transporting sick and/or vulnerable individuals in
planes? I'm imagining it's very non-trivial, and would require a lot of
support (a lot of doctors), so might not even be a net gain...

~~~
iso1631
Sick and vulnerable people get transported by planes all the time. They don't
go through the TSA.

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SilasX
At risk of sounding snarky, what's the rate of return on finding better uses
of their existing capital, like this, compared to just lobbying the government
for free money?

~~~
thephyber
Are you under the impression that airline companies wouldn’t do both at the
same time if they can get away with it?

~~~
SilasX
Getting a reasonable return on their planes would hamper the case that "woe is
us, we're helpless and need money", and yes, it's a common tactic, across many
domains, to beg for help based on feigned helplessness.

~~~
tomerico
But if other airliners are doing it, wouldn’t this create a case for the
government to let you go bankrupt since you are clearly less efficient then
other airliners?

~~~
SilasX
You mean like how it let lots of banks fail because some of them weren't
stupid and didn't need the money, proving that the failing ones were just
inefficient and deserved to go bankrupt?

~~~
dmoy
It did let a lot of banks fail in 2008-12 as fallout from that crisis.

Somewhere around 500 banks failed, with something in the neighborhood of half
a billion dollars of assets.

Just certain banks were propped up because the powers that be decided it would
have too big of an impact on things.

Too big to fail and all that.

~~~
SilasX
The point is, the fact that you could point to another business and say "oh,
they don't seem to need it" wasn't a definitive refutation of "woe is us we
need the money".

~~~
dmoy
Bank bailouts were given to banks that didn't need it. It was then paid back
super fast.

For example US Bancorp didn't partake in much if any of the crazy stuff, and
was financially pretty fine, but it still got a bunch of tarp funds it didn't
need.

It wasn't always a case of pointing or whatever, it was a giant broad effort
to prop up many sectors of the economy.

~~~
btilly
There is a good reason for that. If they only gave to banks in need, giving
tells people that that bank is in trouble. And nobody would do business with
the ones identified which guarantees that they are in trouble.

But they lent to everyone, and every bank knew that every other bank was good.
Which meant that they all did business with each other.

However the eye-popping sums were misleading since these were short term
loans. In fact that USA officially made $15.3 billion in profit off of TARP.
(Which was about breakeven if you consider inflation.)

There are also many sets of numbers going around. For example TARP originally
was supposed to be $700 billion, but only $475 billion was authorized, we
spent $426.4 billion and got $441.7 billion back. The $15.3 billion profit
that we made is very close to break-even when you consider inflation.

------
bluedino
Greyhound has offered freight shipping for quite a while, the rates are pretty
reasonable.

~~~
tathougies
Amtrak loads are cheaper for large items. Did a whole interstate move for a
few hundred dollars v the 3000 being quoted by a moving company.

------
Theodores
There will be winners and losers, mostly losers.

Some of the remaining 747's will be flown to the boneyards a year or two ahead
of schedule, never to make the transition to freight. This could be the end of
them, with a few exceptions such Air Force One.

Then the current requirements related to 'panic buying' or disruption in
supply chains are a bubble. Can't invest in something that is going to be over
in three months.

These requirements related to the disease won't provide work for the whole
industry. Particularly when the depression sets in and nobody has money to
spend on plane flights even if they can fly anywhere.

~~~
Faint
If Saudi-Russia game of chicken keeps on going, there will be very cheap air
tickets. I doubt it will go on much longer than Covid though.

------
leptoniscool
Here's an idea: as part of airline bailout package being discussed in
congress, mandate airlift of masks/medical supplies to severely affected
areas.

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dba7dba
Passengers airlines making big money from shipping cargo is not new.

From 2018 [https://thepointsguy.com/news/how-airlines-make-big-bucks-
fr...](https://thepointsguy.com/news/how-airlines-make-big-bucks-from-cargo/)

 _Airlines don’t make money just from flying passengers: air cargo is a big
business. It doesn’t fly just in dedicated freighter aircraft, but also in the
belly holds of passenger flights. And right now it’s booming._

Also, the WSJ.com article seems to indicate American Airlines is the first in
doing this in this covid-19 crisis, and that other airlines are following.

However I believe it was Korean Air that started to focus on shipping cargo on
passenger airlines without having passengers onboard. This timeline makes
sense as Korea was the first nation outside of China that had a big spike in
covid-19 infections. S. Korea was one of the first nation that saw its
citizens barred from entering other nations in this covid-19 crisis.

------
blackrock
It does seem that shipping by air is more time and labor efficient than
shipping by boat, rail, or truck.

Maybe the next step is to turn the jumbo jets into flying drones. And improve
on the fuel efficiency, and maybe switch to fuel cells powered by hydrogen or
liquid ammonia instead.

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kylehotchkiss
Brilliant, too bad they can't remove seats from the planes to take advantage
of upper floor to move lighter/bigger things at good prices. They couldn't get
ULDs up there but could definitely stuff a lot of lighter boxes in and tie
them down to the floor rails.

~~~
BurningFrog
Seats move around and are replaced all the time. This is how legroom keeps
shrinking.

~~~
SilasX
Right, but only to configurations that have gotten FAA approval, right?

~~~
redis_mlc
> only to configurations that have gotten FAA approval, right?

No, the FAA doesn't regulate seating layouts.

Weight and balance have to be met, and exit time is verified.

~~~
SilasX
So ... only to FAA approved configurations, then, as judged by weight
distribution and exit time.

~~~
burnte
No, FAA doesn't deal with configurations. They have regs as to how to balance
loads, but that's a hot-to rule, not something you need to get approved or
they'd have to approve every single flight. Nothing is stopping Southwest from
removign all their seats right now.

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whalesalad
I really hope we allow these companies to fail. Let it happen. A safety net
should only protect people who can’t help themselves.

I’d hold a little celebration of life party if I heard American was done and
dead and over as an airline.

~~~
pcurve
I don’t think airlines deserve to be punished though. It’s a tough industry
with not a lot of profit. They didn’t cause the pandemic. Companies are also
punished by shareholders for sitting on too much cash.

~~~
positr0n
I don't necessary disagree with the rest of your comment, but to me the last
sentence falls on the "pro" side to let them fail.

If shareholders like that are wiped out then maybe next time they won't punish
companies for having a cash reserve!

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core_dumped
It's funny, I looked out my airplane's window earlier and saw a FedEx labeled
package getting loaded with luggage. I thought it was curious and came upon
this article around 15 minutes later. Makes sense now.

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johnmoonyy
What would cruise lines do? They suggested using it as temporary hospitals but
what could they realistically do with their ships without keeping it idle for
the next 7-9 months?

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neonate
[https://archive.md/BGXqQ](https://archive.md/BGXqQ)

------
m23khan
could recently retired cargo aircraft (ex FedEx/UPS/DHL) be pulled back into
service to help deliver critical supplies around the World?

I imagine quiet a few cargo B727, B757, A300s and even some B747F aircrafts
sitting at Mojave.

~~~
close04
They already have too many idle planes that used to carry passengers. It's
down to what's cheaper/safer: bringing mothballed planes back in use and
making sure they are airworthy, or adapting the current passenger plane fleet
to carry freight. Which likely means nothing more than covering the seats with
sturdy covers to accommodate stuff like airmail or emergency medical supplies.
Dismantling seats is more expensive and less useful since squeezing bulky
cargo through a passenger door is "a bit" of a hassle.

~~~
9nGQluzmnq3M
> _Which likely means nothing more than covering the seats with sturdy covers
> to accommodate stuff like airmail or emergency medical supplies_

No, that's not how it works. Air freight is containerized, so you need space
that can take those containers, and converting a passenger plane into a
freighter takes about three months.

~~~
close04
> converting a passenger plane into a freighter takes about three months

No, that's not how it works. Airlines will hate to make the best out of a bad
situation which means maximizing results while minimizing expenditure. If
we're talking about (quote) "emergency medical supplies" (and not only) it
will be done exactly as I described. Sturdy seat covers and airmail bags are
actually a practice today for some companies.

And rules change in emergencies. Converting a GM, Tesla, or Ford factory to
build ventilators would take fornever. And yet here we are with them
volunteering to do it on short notice.

------
DoreenMichele
So, we can adapt.

Re-use, reduce, repurpose, redirect. An axiom for the current situation.

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FartyMcFarter
Now there's a use for the 737 MAX. Assuming pilots think it's safe to fly one
now I guess...

~~~
redis_mlc
> Assuming pilots think it's safe to fly one now I guess...

1) They never were safe.

2) After being grounded for up to a year, it will take 2 weeks of maintenance
each to make them airworthy after the repairs are done (wiring, FOD in fuel
tanks, software and hardware updates for MCAS system.)

