
Mark Zuckerberg launches FWD.us political action group - Fletch137
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57579078-93/mark-zuckerberg-launches-fwd.us-political-action-group/
======
rayiner
I find it difficult to take at face value any claims of a "shortage of tech
people" when huge numbers of engineering majors at top schools are still going
into finance and consulting: <http://web.mit.edu/facts/alum.html>. At MIT
there are still about 50% more people going into finance and consulting than
computer technologies.[1]

When Google, Apple, Microsoft, etc, start paying comparable salaries to
Goldman and Morgan Stanley, and still can't find enough qualified workers,
then I'll believe that there really is a shortage. Until then, I'm going to
consider this the latest in a long line of anti-competitive moves to depress
engineering wages:
<http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2010/September/10-at-1076.html>.

[1] And it's not because financial firms make more money per worker. Google is
at about $1m in revenue per employee, Apple is at about double that. Goldman
Sachs is at about $1.25 million.

~~~
enraged_camel
An engineer is not worth the same everywhere or to everyone. It's a matter of
supply and demand. Goldman and Morgan Stanley pay engineers more than Google
et al, because they know it's the only way to convince them to work on their
shitty legacy systems rather than on cutting edge technology in Silicon
Valley.

~~~
rayiner
Most of the people Goldman, etc, hire from MIT are going into banking or
programming trading systems, not doing back office infrastructure work. And if
you look at revenues per employee, Google makes more money off its engineers,
on average, than Morgan Stanley does off its bankers. And Google makes a lot
more money per engineer than McKinsey or BCG/Bain do per consultant, and tons
of MIT grads go to those companies instead of going into engineering (though
for consulting less for the pay and more for the prospect of upward career
mobility).

There is certainly a desirability aspect to it--all else being equal an
engineer would probably rather be an engineer at Google than a banker at
Goldman, but that's besides the point. You can't complain that the supply
isn't there when you're paying a lot less money than other organizations with
whom you are directly competing for top engineering graduates. If there are a
ton of graduates available, but they're just going to do other things, it
means you're not paying enough money.

~~~
enraged_camel
>>If there are a ton of graduates available, but they're just going to do
other things, it means you're not paying enough money.

I think you are a bit too hasty with jumping to this conclusion. It can mean
you're not paying enough money. It can also mean a thousand other things.
Maybe their parents are in banking and finance and they want to walk in their
footsteps. Maybe they have friends in banking and finance. Maybe they just
enjoy banking and finance. Alternatively, maybe they don't want to move to
Silicon Valley. Or maybe they don't like the elite tech culture perpetuated by
Google, Facebook, Apple, etc.

I mean really, it seems like you have made up your mind about programmers not
getting paid enough, and you are interpreting everything to fit that
conclusion.

~~~
tptacek
I think you're straining credibility a bit to suggest that finance is
outcompeting technology on anything other than compensation. Engineers aren't
going to work on clearing systems and tradable product catalog systems
(zzzzzzz) because their parents were bankers (if that was the case, they'd be
bankers). They're doing it because the pay is reliably much better.

~~~
enraged_camel
>>Engineers aren't going to work on clearing systems and tradable product
catalog systems (zzzzzzz) because their parents were bankers (if that was the
case, they'd be bankers).

I think this is a strawman.

Let me give you an example: my parents are doctors. For a long time I thought
about being a doctor, but ultimately decided against it. I like healthcare a
lot, and I like the types of people in healthcare. I just did not want to
become a doctor. I became an engineer instead.

That said, even as an engineer, I have a predisposition towards working in the
healthcare industry. I'm familiar with it and I understand how it works. I
know people in it, through my parents. As such, it makes sense for me to get a
job in healthcare.

It has nothing to do with money. In fact, research clearly shows that after a
certain amount (around $75k on average), money stops being a motivator for
knowledge workers. At the end of the day, doing what you enjoy and working
with people you like is priceless.

------
thomasjames
You'd think these companies all had a vested interest in underpaying a bunch
of H-1B visa holders or something...

~~~
untog
Contrary to common belief (common meme?) a lot of H1B employees are not
underpaid. Particularly at large companies like Facebook and Google.

Weird consulting shops in New Jersey, on the other hand...

~~~
thomasjames
I just see this as somehow linking the manufactured labor shortage tech
companies have been trying to whine about for years with the very real problem
of illegal immigration and the social consequences that brings... consequences
which I do not think anyone on that list of people cares about. They would
have better luck creating this need out of no where when the country was
closer to full employment, but the US is a long, long ways off from that.

~~~
untog
How do you figure that the labour shortage in tech is manufactured?

In any case, everyone has been fighting to separate skilled immigration from
ilegal immigration- them being combined is what has held back reform. There's
broad political agreement that skilled immigration needs reform, but until
recently no politician has wanted to touch it for fear of being "soft on
illegals".

~~~
thomasjames
After the dot-com bubble many people were not hired again. We are not even
five years out from the greatest recession in many decades. Many of these
people have fundamental technical skills. They might know more perl than most
and not have much love for ruby hipsters, but they understand the permanent
aspects of programming and related disciplines, like the logic behind it. I
think a lot of this comes down to Silicon Valley's ageism problem (you know
the one no one here ever talks about). There are many technical workers who
people think are outdated, despite being responsible for the first P.C. and
later internet revolution. For the record, I am 24, and such things do not
affect me. But I think opinion here might be skewed on an age basis.

------
gyardley
The United States should just go the route of Canada, and give permanent
residency to individuals with in-demand skills who meet a high standard for
linguistic ability, educational achievement, and work experience. If a
person's got the skills, there's no reason for the country to mess around with
a temporary visa.

Once this is done, the United States should bump up the numbers of skilled
people it can admit by cutting back on the unskilled people it bizarrely
decides to admit every year. The over fifty thousand people given permanent
residency each year through the diversity visa lottery have no real
qualifications other than being lucky. We could replace each and every one of
them with someone with an advanced degree and strong work experience in an in-
demand field.

Never going to happen, though - not when the government's primary focus is
figuring out how to make citizens out of low-skilled economic migrants who've
already shown they don't care about following laws.

~~~
thomasjames
They do; they are called the E1, E2, E3... visa programs. A lot of the
positions these companies are looking to fill frankly just don't require the
skills or experience this program demands, because they are looking for young
workers in a start-up style work environment.

------
avichal
I'm not sure why there is so much talk about ulterior motives on this one. In
this case, I think everyone's incentives are aligned. Successful tech
companies like Google and Facebook hold their engineers in the highest esteem
and pay very generously for them (far above prevailing wage). The best workers
want to work at these companies. Our economy, tax base, and society needs
these people for the long term.

Stapling a Green Card to anyone that gets a phd from a top 25 US university,
giving an automatic h1b to anyone who can raise $1 million in funding, making
companies pay 2x prevailing wage to guarantee an h1b...these are all
reasonable ideas. And I think discussing the merits of different proposals and
how to make sure top tech talent stays in the US is where our energy should
go.

------
pinaceae
Speaking as someone who is currently in the process of getting L1 visa status
to switch to the US HQ of a startup, I applaud this move.

I hear the arguments about well-skilled US workers who could do the same job.
(Money is not a factor, I lead a global team, earn normal US wage.)

There's actually only a few people who can do my job without extensive ramp up
time. It's the global background and experience that is necessary.

And still I am moving me and my family to the US. My wife will get a L2, will
be not be allowed to work immediately (a work permit can later be applied
for).

Why?

a) The US is the perfect ground to start a software company. Single currency,
single language, single legal system. No other country comes close. Your new
business can reach a scale here that is unreachable outside of US for the same
effort. Start in Germany and France is your first stumbling block.

b) Hence the US has the highest density of software jobs. My current job
profile exists a handful of times in Europe.

c) I am good in my job, my job exists in US, US companies need people like me
- why would you step in between? I will pay (high) taxes immediately, won't
hop the border fence or form a gang. I won't depress any wages, I am here to
make money and live in the Bay Area, which is freaking expensive.

What I don't get anyhow - White Americans are in the minority in IT anyhow. My
current employer? More than 50% are of Chinese or Indian decent.

And famous founders? A lot of Eastern Europe, Asia, etc. The world comes to
the Bay to build software. Why not make this easier?

~~~
ktsmith
The L1 works the way it's supposed to and part of the reason there are
restrictions on spouses/children working has to do with how the L1 is issued.
For example I've got a client that brings L1s (blanket L1) in at a rate of
5-10 a month. These workers are here from anywhere between 10 days and several
years. The US government doesn't want to issue an EAD card to the spouse of
someone that's not going to be here for very long.

The biggest problem with the immigration system that I have has to do with
students going into the H1-B pool after graduation. We should either hand
anyone that graduates with a STEM degree from a US university permanent
residence upon graduation or make a new class of H visa that doesn't count
against the cap. I see companies cheating but following the letter of the law
all the time when they have an F1 student intern that is about to graduate and
they want to keep on so they sponsor an H1 for them. This has nothing to do
with wages, just the technicalities and paper work. We should be trying
desperately to keep these people in the US, not making it luck of the draw if
they get an H1.

Any wage depression issues could be resolved if H1-B workers had to work for
their employers directly and not as consultants for other employers.

edit: removed bit about L1 and permanent residence, the L1 is dual intent.

------
mwnz
I've read a lot of the comments here and thought I would chime in as a current
H1B holder. I have two degrees, and received many concrete offers before
moving to the U.S. However, I still found the process incredibly difficult. I
have lived in many countries around the world, but this has been the least
tolerant of highly skilled migrants.

Am I underpaid? No, I am paid market rate. Is there a demand for my skills? An
emphatic yes. Do I feel the visa system is broken? Hell yes.

It is not desirable to live in the U.S on an H1B. My wife, is not allowed to
work here, despite being qualified and experienced. This broken rule alone is
making us consider leaving. Will the void be filled by a U.S citizen? Unlikely
- demand is far exceeding supply here.

Contrast this with competitors to the U.S (European countries, Australia etc),
where immigration policy is far more accepting of highly skilled migrants.
There, I did not even have to be married for my partner of 7 years to work. I
was given tax breaks, as I would likely not see the benefits of a percentage
of the tax I contributed.

My advice to any highly skilled foreigner considering moving here with the
current immigration policy would be - don't. Move to Europe, Australia, Canada
or New Zealand instead (just picking countries I am familiar with there).

~~~
mwnz
My bad - I meant countries and continents.

One further note: While some companies may abuse the system and bring over
workers so that the underpay them, the H1B permits transfer to other
companies, so they are free to leave.

------
jellicle
Yay, tech companies band together to benefit from importing more foreign
workers to the U.S. to work for half of the prevailing wage.

I'd support this change to the H1B program: it's now totally unlimited, with
this caveat: hiring companies must pay 150% of the prevailing wage to any
hired workers.

This should be a win-win - companies like Facebook and Yahoo get to hire as
many workers as they want, from anywhere in the world. And with multi-billion
dollar profit margins, slightly increased salaries should not be a problem.
After all, we know that good tech workers make much more for their companies
than their salaries cost.

Any takers? No? Huh.

~~~
untog
Any citation of "half the prevailing wage"? I've seen this cited time and time
again, but with little evidence to back it up. I am an H1B holder and I know a
number of others- we are all paid very well.

~~~
chime
Being paid very well is different from being paid the market wages. Could you
get a higher paying job with your credentials in your area doing similar work?

/former H1B

~~~
untog
I have done exactly that a number of times- I am on my third job in the US on
my H1B visa, and am absolutely paid market rate for my time.

------
appleseed1234
I'm curious to know what his ulterior motive is behind this, as I've never
been able to take anything he says at face value.

~~~
clicks
Reading the article, it's not just Mark Zuckerberg who's behind this (there's
also our Paul Graham, Marissa Myers, Drew Houston, etc. etc.). But if you
really want to find an ulterior motive to go off on them, I suppose you could
view the immigration reform as being something sinister. Why siphon all the
high talent from all other places? I mean, for example, places like India need
their smart people more than we need them, they have their own problems they
need to solve. W're depriving them of resources to solve problems much more
dire than ones we have. Why not just put all their might into putting their
energy on properly educating our youth, our unemployed, giving them an
environment in which they can excel (more financial help, grants, etc.). What
truly _would_ be a noble change to immigration policies would be heightening
acceptance of refugee asylum cases -- let the homosexuals, atheists, etc. flee
here from places where they're persecuted. The article says they'll push for
'higher standards and accountability' in schools... but you could view that as
just a cover (if you're intent on having a cynical interpretation to all
things Mr. Zuckerberg).

------
vjeux
The problem with H1B is that you have to apply April 1st to have the best
chances of getting one. And you actually get it in October.

If you want to work in the US being a foreigner you've got to find a job more
than 6 months in advance and only at one time every year.

------
PunkRockDoc
This could become very interesting. I wonder if Zuckerberg will have the
strength of character to keep his own corporate interests removed from his
politcal group.

~~~
apalmer
ummmm of course not, that's kinda the whole point of political lobbying.

------
samstave
Can someone explain like I am five:

Briefly, What is the current immigration policy?

Why is it so broken?

WHY/HOW did it get the way it is (who benefits from having it the way it is)?

~~~
yid
Here are a few of the problems (by no means comprehensive):

The H1B Problem

===============

* Foreign high-tech workers need a document called an H-1B visa.

* A limited number of H-1B visas are handed out each year.

* If more people apply than the limit of visas, the recipients are picked by lottery.

* H-1B visas go to two types of workers: (a) low-grade skills, underpaid, working in "consulting" sweatshops in Edison, NJ, and (b) mid- to high-grade skills, paid at or above market, working at reputable companies like FB, Google, etc.

* It's questionable whether people of type (a) are needed or good for the economy. It's pretty clear that people of type (b) are needed and good for the economy. However, the balance doesn't reflect that.

The citizenship problem

=======================

* A foreign student can get a U.S. undergraduate degree, go on to get a Ph.D. at a U.S. university, all the while paying federal, state, and other taxes. They can go on to get a sweet job at Facebook or Google, and get put on a "path to citizenship". If they happen to be from India or China, they then have to wait anywhere from 5-9 years to get their permanent residence ("green card"). For a portion of this time, if they switch employers, they get to start the process all over again, from scratch.

* A pedophile drug dealer puppy strangling wife-beater can arrange a faux wedding with an American citizen and get their permanent residence in less than a year, regardless of where they are from.

~~~
ktsmith

       * A foreign student can get a U.S. undergraduate degree, go on to get a Ph.D. at a U.S. university, all the while paying federal, state, and other taxes.
    

Not exactly, depending on status these students are going to be tax exempt.

    
    
       For a portion of this time, if they switch employers, they get to start the process all over again, from scratch.
    

AC-21 portability allows those that are on an H1-B to transfer jobs even if
they've applied for permanent residency with a few minor restrictions. For
example, you can't change jobs within 180 days of applying, must be changing
to a job within the same or similar type/classification (not well defined),
must be paid a similar wage, and a couple of technical eligibility questions
must be true in regards to form filings.

~~~
isb
You do get extra tax deductions as an international student if your country
has a treaty with the U.S. Which countries are completely exempt?

AC-21 portability doesn't come into play until you are almost at the end of
the green card process. The long wait is before you get to that stage.

~~~
ktsmith
For student tax exemption you would be best off referring to the following
link. Deductions has to do with treaties, exemption not so much.
[http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-
Taxpayers/Forei...](http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-
Taxpayers/Foreign-Student-Liability-for-Social-Security-and-Medicare-Taxes)

> AC-21 portability doesn't come into play until you are almost at the end of
> the green card process. The long wait is before you get to that stage.

This is not true at all. AC-21 portability allows the transfer of employment
to another employer willing to sponsor the visa. Employment with the new
employer can begin as soon as a request to transfer has been filed. The
confusion is usually surrounding the idea that once permanent residency has
been applied for the employee is stuck, which is true for 180 days post
application.

From the M-274 Handbook for employers (documentation on Form I-9 but relevant
to this case)

    
    
      Under the American Competitiveness Act in the Twenty First Century (AC-21), 
      an H-1B employee who is changing employers within the H-1B program may begin 
      working for you as soon as you file a Form I-129 petition on his or her behalf. To 
      qualify for AC-21 benefits, the new petition must not be frivolous and must have 
      been filed prior to the expiration of the individual’s period of authorized stay. You 
      must complete a new Form I-9 for this newly hired employee. An H-1B employee’s 
      Form I-94/Form I-94A issued for employment with the previous employer, along with 
      his or her foreign passport, would qualify as a List A document. You should write 
      “AC-21” and enter the date you submitted Form I-129 to USCIS in the margin of Form 
      I-9 next to Section 2. See Completing Form I-9 for Nonimmigrant Categories when 
      Requesting Extensions of Stay below. 
    
      For more information about employing H-1B workers, please visit www.uscis.gov.

------
marze
There is little that is more backward and corrupt than the path to citizenship
in the US.

------
ryanSrich
So another strategy to continue underpaying engineers. Sounds novel.

------
13b9f227ecf0
Immigration benefits the economic elite, but is either financially neutral or
harmful to the larger population. [http://cis.org/immigration-and-the-
american-worker-review-ac...](http://cis.org/immigration-and-the-american-
worker-review-academic-literature)

That's just a financial perspective but there are other costs to consider. As
NumbersUSA and others document immigration is harming the environment. Robert
Putnam and others have documented how immigration is eroding trust and social
capital in American communities.

