
American Airlines Has Cameras in Their Screens Too - sricola
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/nicolenguyen/american-airlines-planes-entertainment-system-cameras
======
SketchySeaBeast
They already take a high resolution back scatter shot of my genitals on the
way in, what's a little more humiliation among friends? If they want to spend
6 hours watching me make pained expressions as I shift and turn and feel the
bits that make me human slowly slip away, leaving me a crippled, grunting
inhuman beast by the time I get out of the aluminum can full of other peoples
farts, I guess they are welcome to it.

~~~
ngngngng
For all the crap we give China and their authoritarian government, airport
security is FAR easier at every Chinese airport I've been to. Walk through a
metal detector and get a quick non-invasive pat down.

~~~
criley2
When you've already locked down your citizens, control all guns, and record
their wrongthink in databases linked to credit and their livelihoods, there's
probably less danger at any one point.

Hell there aren't mass shootings in China either. Again, authoritarians often
cite Order as the result of just giving in to their oppressive tactics.

~~~
Untit1ed
There certainly are mass stabbings though...

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netsharc
To me this is just a distraction. Yes there's a hardware camera. I will bet
some money that they have not been used nefariously by AA or SQ. Some are
raging about the non-existant theoretical privacy violation (again, not 100%
non-existant, but I will bet money there's no surveillance through this
camera), meanwhile we are ignoring actual privacy violations being done by
e.g. Facebook or Twitter, or the millions of ad networks (which that webpage
has too, btw).

One might say "But what about hackers?", luckily unlike Alexa or Google Home,
it's hard for hackers to tinker with one these devices and find remotely-
triggerable exploits.

~~~
jackhack
>>I will bet some money that they have not been used nefariously by AA or SQ.

not yet

Given the last 20 years of bad behavior from tech companies overall, and the
steady erosion of privacy in nearly all quarters, I question your confidence
and must ask "based on _what_?"

~~~
kortilla
AA isn’t a tech company. There revenue isn’t based on selling eyeballs.

~~~
Teever
Those in seat screens have advertisements on them you know.

~~~
trophycase
Don't forget the brainwash about their company they make you watch while
you're strapped into a seat with nowhere else to look.

------
cbhl
Most of these are just COTS Android tablets. When they reboot the IFE, you
sometimes see the Android soft home/menu button on the bottom.

It's easy enough to repair, too -- just apply some opaque tape to the camera.

~~~
objclxt
> Most of these are just COTS Android tablets

This isn't quite true. They're not off-the-shelf (COTS) Android tablets - the
hardware is custom, especially in terms of industrial design (although the
chipset is pretty standard). IFE manufacturers aren't going to OEMs and re-
purposing commercial tablet designs.

You couldn't use off-the-shelf tablets anyway, because they have lithium
batteries in them - and whilst the form factors might work for economy
seating, in business and first class you often see very large units, larger
than any tablet available today. IFE systems also need a much wider variety of
I/O than "consumer" Android tablets provide.

There are also requirements vis a vis safety and impact that make commercial
tablets unsuitable. For example, the display is usually made of plastic rather
than glass, since these units have to survive a lot of abuse.

Some example components from one of the two big manufacturers:
[https://www.panasonic.aero/inflight-systems/x-series/key-
com...](https://www.panasonic.aero/inflight-systems/x-series/key-
components-2/)

Source: I worked in the IFE industry when they were transitioning from Linux
based systems over to Android. One of the primary drivers for doing so was
software, rather than hardware.

~~~
freeflight
Thank you for the more detailed explanation!

But if this is custom hardware then somebody must have wanted these cameras on
there? To what end?

~~~
nordsieck
> But if this is custom hardware then somebody must have wanted these cameras
> on there?

I mean, the explanation could be as simple as "it's semi-custom hardware with
the minimum number of changes from a commercial tablet". In that case, it has
a camera for the same reason brown sugar is refined sugar with molasses added
back in: it's cheaper to stay on the path of high volume as much as possible.

Of course, it could also be a more nefarious explanation. Short of mass
surveillance by the government, I can't think of one: it's not like the
airlines don't know exactly who is in which seat.

------
crazygringo
I mean, I'm a big fan of privacy but I consider an airline cabin to be a
pretty public place.

I'm already used to security cameras in pretty much every public building I
walk in...

...can anyone think of something nefarious that could be done with these
cameras?

The only possible "threat" I can think of would be to eavesdrop on someone's
laptop/conversation for potential business secrets or otherwise, but the
cameras are pointed at someone's face (not screen) and no mention is made of a
microphone... although planes used to have those phones (obviously with a
microphone) in them for many years.

And in any case, a commercial flight is probably not the best place to be
discussing top-secret info anyways.

~~~
bitxbitxbitcoin
If Facebook paid the airlines a dollar per flight to be able to study your
facial expressions during moments of turbulence, would that be considered
nefarious?

------
filmgirlcw
I understand why airlines and other industries are using off-the-shelf parts;
I actually prefer this because it gets us closer to more modular IFE systems
like what Delta/GoGo are doing on the A220, which means airlines can
conceivably upgrade their IFE systems more frequently and at lower costs.

What I don’t understand is why there aren’t commodify parts available sans
cameras, given the myriad of use-cases and the customer volume for camera-free
Android/Linux/QNX (I doubt QNX is even a player given their royalties but just
thinking of what embedded systems are available) tablets.

Anyway, it would take very little effort to assuage customers by blocking the
cameras. If a 2¢ cover is too much, gaffer tape would work. It’s disappointing
— though not surprising — that the airline industry hasn’t done this.

~~~
jbay808
>> What I don’t understand is why there aren’t commodify parts available sans
cameras, given the myriad of use-cases and the customer volume for camera-free
Android

Yes. In fact, an acquaintance of mine is staying at a psychiatric hospital
being treated for schizophrenia. He has absolutely nothing to do all day and
wants to read books from the library. But he can't easily access the library.

This is possible (but slow and inconvenient) to do with an e-reader, but very
convenient with a tablet.

However, devices with cameras or microphones are not permitted in the psych
ward. They can be used to compromise the privacy of other patients. So the
hospital would not allow tablets.

I "upgraded" a cheap tablet for him by permanently disabling the
microphoneaand camera using a power drill and some epoxy. He's thrilled with
it and the hospital has asked for more!

~~~
xg15
> _Yes. In fact, an acquaintance of mine is staying at a psychiatric hospital
> being treated for schizophrenia. He has absolutely nothing to do all day and
> wants to read books from the library. But he can 't easily access the
> library._

Nice. I guess this is the psychological equivalent of crappy hospital food
right when your body is recovering and has the highest need of nutrients.

------
bearcobra
Given the state of surveillance at airports already, I'm honestly kind of
surprised the cameras aren't active & recording the whole time to try to
"detect threats"

~~~
freeflight
No worries, I'm sure we will still be alive to see that happen. Ain't living
in the future just wonderful?

------
yters
It's ironic that in the book 1984 all the citizens have hidden cameras in
their TVs. Today, in 2019, all the citizens have non-hidden cameras and
microphones in pretty much every electronic device they use. We also have the
customary day of rage, where we all direct our collective rage at some
political opponent. Don't get me started on the butchering of the English
language...

~~~
hiccuphippo
Sorry to nitpick but the cameras in the TVs in 1984 where not hidden. They
even had a speaker and the government was able to talk directly to an
individual through them.

The problem there, and here, is people don't really care.

~~~
bobthepanda
Except people do care, as evidenced by the fact that this is even an article
about a controversy in the first place.

~~~
docker_up
Some journalists care. Don't conflate journalists or HN forum with the general
public. Most people likely don't care at all.

~~~
bobthepanda
People is just the plural of person. Journalists are people too.

A small amount of disgruntled air travelers stranded on the tarmac led to the
establishment of a Passenger Bill of Rights:
[https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/us-
department-t...](https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/us-department-
transportation-expands-airline-passenger-protections). So I wouldn't say that
this is worthless or that this is not impactful.

~~~
docker_up
Then say "some people" if you don't want to be deceptive in what you're
portraying. Just saying "people" implies that most people believe it, which is
not the case.

------
yalogin
This is the reason we need laws surrounding data its collection, usage,
retention and sharing. Companies and people will willfully or through sheer
incompetence collect data, create privacy violations. For consumers there is
no option but to rail against every new find. As we saw every company big and
small do it. There is no solution but laws. At least that way we have a line
drawn and we can fight for that line and about that line. Right now we are all
screaming into a void hoping someone will listen and in some cases we yell
into a void when its not warranted.

------
dawnerd
Actually surprised there's no cameras on planes (that I know of at least).
Buses, subways, other mass transit have cameras.

And I've seen no one complain about the cameras some food chains use in their
table-side checkout systems. Red Robin is the first that comes to mind. It
sits there your entire meal... Obviously it's to take your pic when you swipe
your credit card (and apparently scan coupons and gift cards).

~~~
jackpirate
Those kiosks have cameras in them? I've used them dozens of times and never
realized, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

~~~
dawnerd
Yep

[https://www.ziosk.com/the-experience](https://www.ziosk.com/the-experience)

"Scan coupons and gift cards with the built-in camera"

------
Gpetrium
The real question is, why didn't AA & Singapore Airlines not put a sticker on
top of the camera instead of having all this negative publicity? QA was
probably concerned about something else.

------
minikites
I flew on a plane similar to the one cited in the article this past Monday. It
was a late night flight and I turned the screen off to try and sleep, only to
have the screen turn itself back on (and disable the power button) to show me
advertisements. Between this and "smart" TVs that secretly surveil the end
user, I'm not optimistic about the future of humane consumer electronics.

~~~
Nextgrid
Should’ve grabbed keys or something sharp and scratched the screen.

------
adrianmonk
Griping at and shaming companies who may or may not have a legitimate use case
is a battle that will never end. You don't necessarily know which products
have cameras, and you don't have a ton of leverage anyway.

Instead, what would make sense to me is to have an across the board regulatory
requirement that cameras, regardless of purpose, product type, etc.:

(1) must be clearly marked (logo, wording, etc.), and

(2) must have some kind of reliable, independent way to shut them down or
defeat them (such as a plastic shutter to cover the camera, etc. -- not just a
software controlled indicator light).

That way there is considerably less need for complicated agree-to-disagree
debates about whether a camera should or shouldn't exist in this or that
context. Instead, there would be one thing that is clear cut, objective, and
possible to enforce, and people would be empowered to do something about the
cameras around them. (Except for security cameras, which would need to be a
separate category.)

------
derekdahmer
Most airplanes have built-in CCTV cameras whose explicit purpose is to record
everyone in the cabin for the entire flight. So do MUNI buses.

Instead people are raising the issue of a stock camera that's obviously not
being used to record. There would be no way to keep that a secret, everything
in an airplane has to be FAA approved.

~~~
MrStonedOne
A CCTV camera from an angle far(relatively) away at the front and back of the
cabin isn't the same level as one in the device staring you in the face.

How long until that camera gets enabled to do eyetracking for ad and premium
services tracking. Whos to say its not already?

Mixed it in with facial recognition so they can sell that data to other ad
agencies and now you see the problem with allowing the camera to exist at that
location in the first place.

~~~
derekdahmer
The recently passed California Consumer Privacy Act (CCPA) requires that any
collection of biometric information to be disclosed and along with who the
data is being sold to. The law goes into effect on January 1st, 2020 so we'll
know then and in the future if they are doing any kind of personal
identification at all.

Given the tablets can't even scroll through a list of movies without lagging
and show everyone the same 2 minute Honda commercial before each movie despite
already knowing who you are from your ID and frequent flyer number, I'd
venture that the airlines haven't figured out how to do eye tracking yet.

------
robszumski
United has several planes with what appear to be active IR LEDs in the same
spot on the front bezel. Any idea what those are doing? Tracking empty seats?
Movement for some reason?

~~~
objclxt
It's for detecting when your hands move towards the display, and turning on
LEDs in response (for instance, many in-seat monitors have a USB socket with a
LED ring around it) - I worked on those units many years ago.

~~~
robszumski
Pretty cool, I guess I never picked up on the behavior because I am mostly on
my laptop.

------
post_break
If you're in a taxi cab the driver will have a camera pointed at them and you,
the passenger. You're paying to get transported from A to B. If you're on an
airplane you're doing the same thing only paying more and going up in the air.
I guess I don't see the issue? Maybe, and I mean maybe if you paid for a plane
ticket that had a "private" seat with a door, could this be a gray area.

~~~
jpollock
Taxis have cameras because passengers have a terrible habit of beating up and
robbing drivers.

~~~
berbec
Such history exists in air travel as well.

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exabrial
Security concerns aside, I thought the cameras were there so you could swipe
in front of it to turn the infotainment system on? Is there proof they are
recording? Planes have weight limitations. A long-haul 8-12hr flight for 300
passengers is a significant commitment to storage space and the weight of said
drives.

~~~
jonahx
1 TB fits on a flash drive these days. If they were transferring semi-
regularly when grounded and recording in SD, you'd be talking on the order of
a few pounds.

~~~
exabrial
I forgot security cameras only run at like 5fps, so that's a good point.

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sys_64738
These cameras will eventually be enabled plus they're pointing at your face.
This becomes especially important when facial recognition software gets to the
point that it can, with high probability, capture your mood. If you look angry
or aggressive then you are a risk to a safe flight. It might get to the point
where you're escorted from the plane before it takes off due to you looking
mad because you couldn't find an overhead bin. An extension of this would be
for air marshals to Taser you inflight before you can causes an incident, all
because you look drunk or look mad due to sneezing giving you a red face.

------
mcrae
What's the big deal, though? Its not like these devices are in your home --
they are in a public space that is well known to be heavily surveiled.

So I guess, even in the worst case scenario where these cameras were recording
you, what is so different from the other 500x camera FOVs you step into during
your journey? What am I missing?

~~~
bobthepanda
An airport is a public space. A plane seat is semi-private or at least has
always had that expectation. And given that it was placed there by the people
owning the plane, it is well within the bounds of what passengers can expect
to demand changed by said owners.

~~~
kelnos
> A plane seat is semi-private or at least has always had that expectation.

Really? I've never had that expectation. I consider it the same as sitting on
a seat on a public transit bus or subway train.

I still think the airline should disclose when and how they're recording me,
but an expectation of privacy? Nah.

~~~
nacs
So when you're sitting next to your significant other and talking about
personal issues, you have no problem with being audio/video recorded?

Most people expect some level of privacy when sitting at their seat. This is
not a general/overview cabin camera, this is literally a foot in front of you
and pointed directly at your face.

~~~
kelnos
For topics that I wouldn't like recorded, I don't speak about them on a plane.
I don't think I'm abnormal in not thinking of a plane seat as a private place,
and disagree with your assertion that "most people" do.

------
King-Aaron
It's been about a year or so since I've flown, but from memory there were
tablets on my last QANTAS flight that also had run of the mill hardware
cameras on the tablets. They looked like any ol' chinese made tablet to be
honest, I didn't think too much of it.

------
hprotagonist
This seems like a cost issue. Aside from the privacy issues, it’s gotta be
cheaper to buy a pile of COTS tablets and bolt them to your airline seats than
commission a custom form factor and hardware spec.

That said, this is actually a time when physically occluding the camera makes
sense.

~~~
rwc
Interestingly, Delta just launched a group (Delta Flight Products) recognizing
that this is an area for differentiation: [https://news.delta.com/3-ways-
delta-flight-products-revoluti...](https://news.delta.com/3-ways-delta-flight-
products-revolutionizing-aircraft-interiors)

------
jasonjei
I think I remember reading Cathay Pacific has cameras in the first class cabin
for a customer service reason—to attend to you when you were awake...

------
rootusrootus
I give it about a week until the airlines cover all the cameras with stickers.
Maybe a nice little company logo.

------
peeters
The overwhelming availability of gum in an airplane cabin might suggest a
solution to the privacy-conscious.

------
andy-x
Wait until they start embedding cameras in toilet seats. "For better passenger
comfort".

------
monksy
I've seen these in:

SAS Emirites Cathray Pacific

flights.

------
JohnFen
Hmm. I guess I need to start carrying post-it notes when I fly.

------
subjoriented
Soon the TSA will be confiscating sticky notes.

~~~
berbec
More dangerous than Dasani!

------
madrox
There's security cameras in every mass transit vehicle I've ever been in. Why
is this a privacy issue?

~~~
sverige
Then we have to hope that someone leaks a cell phone video of the incident as
it plays on a screen in a security hut somewhere. No way any airline is going
to publish video of airport security dragging a paying customer down the aisle
of an aircraft.

------
backtoyoujim
I can't wait for the MKBHD breakdown of them.

------
DigiMortal
You're in public on an airline, so whatever, they can have all the cameras
they want on that airline.

------
mnm1
How can you have privacy concerns in a completely public space?

~~~
Someone1234
I think the people who disagree with this reply should explain their
reasoning.

You're in public on an aircraft, you have no reasonable expectation of
privacy. The people around you, including the airline's staff, can listen to
your conversations/see you.

I'm not even arguing legally, even just in terms of common sense, everything
you do or say is isn't private in those circumstances. So a camera being there
(regardless of if it is used) isn't moving the needle either direction.

~~~
tomjakubowski
Sure, there are other, strange people on board. It would be uncomfortable if
one of them positioned their face right in front of mine and stared at me,
listening, the entire flight. The camera would bother me likewise.

~~~
Someone1234
Even if they blocked the camera then the argument would shift to the
microphone which may still work even if physically blocked.

Plus you're contrasting the invasion of personal space, with the perception
that a non-privacy space is now non-privacy.

But since the space was never private to being with has anything changed or
has the airline just ruined your own fiction about the space?

------
nkkollaw
Buzzfeed confirms his focus on writing articles for the sole purpose of
provoking outrage to get the last few clicks before they finally go bankrupt.

------
gwbas1c
These stories remind me of something that happened in my first internship in
2000.

One of the interns that I worked with left a week earlier than I did so he
could have some R & R. That Monday, we all got an email from him that went
something like, "Check out my WebCam!!!!"

I clicked on the link, and my screen was filled with a picture of him with his
finger fully up his nose, picking a winner.

Would have been better if we saw the full booger.

