
How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master - emptybits
http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20200415-how-to-make-pizza-like-a-neapolitan-master
======
albmoriconi
I am from Naples and eat regularly at Gino Sorbillo's and Ciro Salvo's places.
As it often happens here, everyone will swear by its pretty small and obscure
"favorite place", but they are masters without doubt ;)

The dough recipe from the article is pretty legit and exactly the way I do it
at home; the main problem I see is that it would be pretty hard to find good
Mozzarella or Fiordilatte cheese (Fiordilatte di Agerola is slightly drier
than Mozzarella, therefore producing less liquid in the oven, and also costs
less), and I find that pizza done according to the Neapolitan recipe loses
much when using a different kind of cheese.

A pet peeve of mine is that many recipes, while getting most of it right, use
instant yeast; an important part of Neapolitan pizza is the slow dough rise
using very little amounts of yeast, that should take from a minimum of 7/8
hours to an entire day or more (of course by storing it in a fridge).

~~~
misiti3780
Ciao, Come siete ?

I'm not sure if you have ever been to NYC but an interesting observation I
have had with Gino Sorbillo is the pizza in Napoli is very good, but he/they
opened a restaurant in NYC and it's absolutely average at best.

I assume they import everything, but quality wise, the places are polar
opposites.

Also curious your thoughts of Da Michele?

~~~
TeMPOraL
Given the stories I hear from pretty much everyone in my circle who's been to
the US, there's a general problem with food there tasting bland, in comparison
to Europe. Like others, I suspect the ingredients in the States are worse for
some reason (perhaps they've been optimized too much for shelf life).

~~~
bsder
Send them to Santa Fe.

Bland will _NOT_ be your problem.

However, you have to understand that a lot of the US really doesn't deal well
with food that isn't bland--a holdover from WWII rationing and canned foods,
probably. IIRC, McDonalds(?) went through a huge engineering process to
attempt to add an ingredient to their pipeline. They found that adding
cucumber was fine, but avocado was a step too far for the midwest.

~~~
TeMPOraL
> _McDonalds(?) went through a huge engineering process to attempt to add an
> ingredient to their pipeline. They found that adding cucumber was fine, but
> avocado was a step too far for the midwest._

That's something I'd love to read in more details about. Personally, I'd say
avocado is a step too far in anything that isn't fruit salad. But so is
(pickled) cucumber. I wish they'd remove it from their burgers altogether. The
reasoning is, pickled cucumber overwhelms everything else with its sour
flavor. McD burgers I experienced (in several countries, Europe and Asia) have
a balanced composition of tastes, and that slice of cucumber there is as if
someone threw a grenade into it. I usually hunt it down and eat it with my
first bite, so that I can enjoy the rest of the burger in peace.

------
Obi_Juan_Kenobi
Neopolitan is a setup for failure in the home kitchen. It's one of the most
demanding styles in terms of equipment and preparation. It makes zero sense to
pursue it at home unless you actually have a very strong preference for this
style (highly unlikely if commercial pizza is even a crude reflection of
preferences).

It's fetishism. It's sought because it has cultural cachet, it's hard to
obtain, it's 'authentic', etc.

~~~
emptybits
> setup for failure ... most demanding ... makes zero sense ... It's
> fetishism. It's sought because it has cultural cachet, it's hard to obtain,
> it's 'authentic', etc.

Totally agree. There's beauty in such crazy pursuits, don't you think?

I shared the link in the spirit of HN, knowing this place is full of people
who enjoy chasing obsessions that are risky, or just because, or because
someone said it was impossible.

Long live kitchen hackers with zero sense! It's always enriching and
occasionally successful. :-)

------
JackMcMack
My favorite read on pizza:
[http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm](http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm)

~~~
ThePhysicist
Damn, he bakes those at 825F (440 °C), which unfortunately is unattainable
with most regular home ovens. Mine e.g. maxes out at 300 °C so it's not hot
enough to let the crust rise significantly and produce a nicely charred
underside, at least not before completely burning the top.

What I'm currently experimenting with to solve this problem is to put the
pizza on a flat, heavy and preheated iron pan or plancha and heat it at
maximum power on the induction stove for 3 minutes to get the metal really
hot. Then I put it in the oven at 300 °C for around 10 minutes. Doesn't
produce perfectly charred pizza but comes a lot closer to what you can achieve
with a real pizza oven. Still I'm not fully satisfied with the result, so
thanks for the article link, I'll definitely try to apply some tricks
mentioned there!

~~~
stevievee
For a quick pizza, I use a "Ooni" pizza oven and the results have been great.
It's relatively cheap and you can get the temperatures you are looking for. I
joined their first kickstarter and have been buying their ovens ever since:

[https://uk.ooni.com/collections/shop-all/products/ooni-
koda](https://uk.ooni.com/collections/shop-all/products/ooni-koda)

~~~
pbowyer
For years I've dreamed of building a wood-fired pizza oven, or buying one of
the cast kits from [https://www.fornobravo.com/](https://www.fornobravo.com/).
But this looks way easier and cheaper.

How long does a gas cylinder last?

~~~
gdubs
I have a green-egg[1] style ceramic grill that works really well for pizza.
Wood-fired, and can get up to a pretty good temperature. I use a pizza stone
in it.

1: The exact brand is a Kamado ceramic grill.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Cool, but why do those cost like a Rolls Royce? Just a big ceramic ball, but
priced like its made of gold.

~~~
gdubs
With the Green Egg, you’re paying for a brand name for sure. The Kamado is
definitely not _cheap_ , but it’s typically around half the price.

------
syedkarim
Nothing beats Neapolitan-style pizza. If you are ever in Chicago, skip the
deep dish and instead head over to Spacca Napoli on the city's northside.

[https://www.spaccanapolipizzeria.com/](https://www.spaccanapolipizzeria.com/)

Supposedly, the owner shipped in Italian raw materials for the clay oven, as
well as Italian masons to build it. I don't know that the oven is the reason
for why their product is so good, but it is just miles apart from any other
type of pizza in Chicago.

They also have wines that can't be found anywhere else in the US.

~~~
nwsm
Personally prefer both NY style and deep dish over Neapolitan. Neapolitans are
beautiful and have good flavors, but I think the floppy structure is much
worse.

------
alanfranz
Norther Italian here: the recipe for the dough is reasonable. I usually go for
500g flour (typically a mix of 0 and 00 which I find at my grocery store) and
300ml water.

If you want a much quicker fermentation, You can use between 15g and 25g of
yeast. Put a couple teaspoons of sugar to let the yeast work better, and make
sure the water is between 20°C and 45°C.

But the most interesting idea for home baking is the "double fermentation":
let the dough rest for about one hour in a slightly warm environment (20°C -
40°C - usually that means starting the oven for one minute, then turning it
off and putting the covered dough in). Then prepare the base for the pizza on
your baking tin, but DO NOT PUT anything on it; instead, leave it for 30-45
min more resting in the oven. Then, extract it, put the tomato and other
things, and cook it.

~~~
phonypc
> _Norther Italian here_

No offence intended, I'm genuinely curious; isn't pizza a southern thing? This
reads to me like a person from the northern US weighing in on BBQ. It's
perfectly allowed, but why qualify with northern?

~~~
alanfranz
> This reads to me like a person from the northern US weighing in on BBQ

The US is much larger than Italy, you know!

By the way, I qualified as "Northern" exactly for the "southern thing" reason.
Pizza is an italian staple and, as such, different regions have different
recipes and dough styles - not just trying to imitate the "original" version.
Such original version is Neapolitan pizza, which is indeed very good.

But it's hard to bake a true Neapolitan pizza at home. Would you prepare your
dough 24 hours before? Have you got the right temperature where to leave it?
Does your oven reach 450°C ? So I chimed in with some suggestions to bake a
good pizza at home - and, as far as I know, most people use a variation of
such recipe when at home. Including people from Neaples!

I wasn't commenting on the perfect dough for the perfect Neapolitan pizza for
a pizzeria; that's far beyond my competence levels.

EDIT: after all, from my comment it COULD look like I was commenting on the
"Neapolitan master" pizza recipe; that was not my intention. My bad. My
suggestion is valid for HOME BAKING.

------
mishkovski
Our last attempt:

[https://www.instagram.com/p/B_TDukylKSj/](https://www.instagram.com/p/B_TDukylKSj/)

We made it in a regular home oven but on maximum temperature of 285°C (545°F)
and broiler on. It takes no more than 2-3 minutes.

We followed this recipe:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-SJGQ2HLp8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-SJGQ2HLp8)

~~~
lisper
Wow, Instagram has really gone over to the dark side. They haven't just broken
the back button, they have entirely disabled it. There is no way to escape
that site other than typing in a new URL or going to your browser history.

~~~
jasonlotito
Works fine in desktop Safari, so it's a problem with your browser.

~~~
lisper
Interesting. I'm using firefox with noscript. So it's not that Instagram has
intentionally disabled the back button, it's (apparently) that they're trying
to intercept it somehow and when they fail it ends up disabled. Still kinda
hinky if you ask me.

------
skosch
I have found that the key to getting the dough really stretchy is the autolyse
part: first mix ~⅔ of the flour/yeast with all of the water to make something
like a pancake batter, stir for a few minutes, and let that sit for at least
20 minutes. _Then_ add in the rest of the flour, knead, and let rest
overnight.

This isn't mentioned in the linked BBC article, but both
[http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm](http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm)
and [http://www.perfekte-pizza.de/](http://www.perfekte-pizza.de/) swear by
it, and I think it has made a noticeable difference to my dough.

------
lisper
I can't speak to pizza, but I have an espresso story to tell.

One of my favorite things about going to Italy is the quality of the coffee. I
really like extreme dark roast (your typical American diner coffee doesn't
even count as coffee in my book). In Italy you can go into pretty much any
coffee shop and come away with a top-quality espresso. (Don't even get me
started on Starbucks.) It's a taste I inherited from my parents, who have
European roots.

Now, my parents are seriously old-school. They still live in the house I grew
up in, a house they bought new in 1975 and pretty much never updated. It still
has the original flower-pattern wall paper. Walking into their house today
feels like stepping into a time machine that transports you to an episode of
the Brady Bunch. And in their kitchen is a 40-year-old Mr. Coffee which my
father loves to futz with. On a good day he can coax it into producing an
acceptable cup of joe, but that's about it. So for their 50th anniversary I
decided I was going to buy them a proper espresso machine.

Now, I know next to nothing about espresso except that I love to drink it, so
I started doing some homework and very soon got lost in a morass of coffee
geekdom. The range of options available in the espresso machine market is
truly mind-boggling, as are the prices. I didn't mind dropping some serious
coin (this was their 50th anniversary after all) but I wanted to make sure I
was actually getting something for my money. So I decided to do some
experiments.

At the time I worked in a co-working office that had a high-end espresso
machine (retail price $5000) and several Italians so I asked one of them to
show me how to make a proper espresso. I wanted to use the espresso that came
out of the office machine as a baseline and compare it to what I could make on
a less expensive machine to see if the machine actually made a difference.
"The first thing you have to do," he told me, "is to get the right beans. You
have to go to this little specialty shop that's a half-hour drive away and get
this particular brand of beans..." which, of course, cost $50 a pound or
something absurd like that. But I love my parents, so I dutifully complied.

Proper beanage having been procured, we spent several hours brewing espresso
with just about every possible variation on the theme you could imagine.
Different grinds (we had a high-end burr grinder in the office too), different
packings, different machine settings. Not once did we manage to produce a cup
that any of us considered even remotely drinkable. It was all acidic and
awful, probably because the machine had never been cleaned since it was
installed god-only-knows how many years before.

I ended up getting them a Keurig. I got one for myself too. It makes a decent
cup of coffee, but nothing compared to what you find in Italy. It is still a
mystery to me how the Italians manage to produce such consistently good
coffee, but only in Italy. When they come to the U.S. they seem to lose the
touch. Maybe there's something in the water.

~~~
gregkerzhner
I don't know much about espresso, but the pourover coffee I make at home is
certainly much higher quality than a Keurig machine. The beans are the most
important part - you should get them roasted within the last few weeks.

Even the fanciest pourover funnel costs only 50 dollars, but you can certainly
get by with a cheap plastic one for a few bucks. If you want to go full
hipster, you will also need a temperature controlled electric kettle, and a
scale to exactly portion out your coffee.

Then of course there is the grinder. If you are patient enough to hand grind,
you can get a Hario ceramic manual grinder for $50 that produces a high
quality grind. Otherwise, a quality electric grinder will be more expensive.

All and all, a hipster pourover setup will cost you less than $500 if you go
all in. I don't use a scale, a temperature control, or a fancy grinder - I
just use a cheap grinder and eyeball my beans, while pouring boiled water over
them, so my whole setup cost me about $50 dollars. That coffee still blows the
pants off Keurig any day of the week, and I can compost my filters so I am not
filling a hole in our planet with a tiny plastic cup every time I want a
coffee.

~~~
sevencolors
Last month I got a simple pour over setup that's not full-hipster. Coffee is
10x better than a Keurig or instant coffee. Both of which i have. Maybe it's
partially being trapped in house but it's bordering on better than the coffee
shops nearby.

Setup:

Hario v60 ~ $20

Pour Over Filter ~ $10

Grinder - $30 (already had)

Kitchen Scale - $10 (already had)

This guide is a good start: [https://www.stumptowncoffee.com/brew-
guides/v60](https://www.stumptowncoffee.com/brew-guides/v60)

~~~
gregkerzhner
Nice, thats a good guide!

I dare say that if you are capable of following instructions, and have $15 to
invest into a freshly roasted bag of beans from a coffee shop, then your
coffee is exactly the same quality as to what you would get from a high end
coffee shop. The only difference is that the coffee shop will charge you up to
5 dollars for a fancy pourover, while your 15 dollar bag of beans will last
you several weeks.

~~~
sevencolors
Oh yes! That is a great point, I've been buying from local roasters/shops and
it definitely makes a difference

------
airstrike
I'm quarantined with two Italians (father-in-law and his mother) from Northern
Italy and had been planning on making pizza from scratch to surprise them but
always thought I would make a huge mess in the kitchen... from the video, it
looks totally manageable! The hardest part is having to wait 11 hours to eat
it!

~~~
C19is20
N.Italy: I'm quarantined [well, it's lockdown, really] with two Italians, one
is my wife (other is son): I'm not allowed even remotely near the kitchen.
Every mealtime has become a stereotypically-italian ultra-marathon. 2.4kg
heavier since. Yes, i am trying to keep fit but going from 30-200km daily
bicycle rides (eas 28km commute and back for work) to balconia+pasta+pasta
sure takes it toll.

~~~
muxator
> I'm not allowed even remotely near the kitchen

Ahha! I do not know why, but in every international couple I have met
(including mine) the Italian part always ends up taking over the kitchen.

My non-Italian wife says it is a matter of low adaptability to different
cooking styles on our part.

Maybe it's true. But she seems to be happy to accept it :-)

~~~
toyg
As an Italian, I agree with your wife: my countrymen can be downright racist
when it comes to food. Often they struggle to accept even other Italian food
that is not from their own city. Then again, that's how Italian cuisine
managed to survive the industrial revolution whereas others didn't make it.

------
throw0101a
Previous discussion from last week:

* [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22897962](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22897962)

------
ggurgone
Hear me out this is one of the best how-to
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SN2HkepzPhU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SN2HkepzPhU)

– an Italian who eats 2 pies per week on average

~~~
chadcmulligan
since we're sharing - I love watching this lady cook Italian food
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjXWVSbWBV4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjXWVSbWBV4)

~~~
ggurgone
haha that accent! The recipes seem legit. This type of cuisine is quite
healthy

------
salimmadjd
Like many, I've been learning new recipes recently and that includes pizza -

I've been using this dough recipe (it has wholewheat in it) [0] and been
really liking the flavor of the dough. I've also moved to slow rise, the dough
flavor seems more complex (or it could be psychosomatic). I leave it in the
fridge for 2 days or 3 days, depending on how quickly we go through one batch.

But for cooking, I'm following this method (which is similar to what suggested
in the OP). Basically to cook the pizza with tomato sauce first and then add
the cheese [1] (PSA - this guy has such fun personality, be prepared to watch
hours of his pizza videos)

I've also bought canned peel san marzano tomatoes (from both Whole Foods and
TJs) and just used an impression blender to puree it with some basil.

I watched an interview with the owner of Lucali in NY [2] and he said he cooks
his tomato sauce. So I've been cooking my tomato puree simmering it for 30-40
min. It makes it much richer. Still not sure if I like it more or not.

[0] [https://www.billyparisi.com/homemade-pizza-homemade-pizza-
do...](https://www.billyparisi.com/homemade-pizza-homemade-pizza-dough-
recipe/)

[1] [https://youtu.be/xuy8sP4Wb2k?t=142](https://youtu.be/xuy8sP4Wb2k?t=142)

[2] [https://youtu.be/BSHh0MmJM1U?t=339](https://youtu.be/BSHh0MmJM1U?t=339)

------
orangesquirrel
For anyone interested in more information:

I recently discovered Vito Iacopelli's excellent YouTube channel on
(predominantly Neapolitan) pizza making. He runs a Neapolitan pizzaria in Los
Angeles and covers things like stretching techniques, tests with different
ingredients and fermentation processes, and methods specifically designed to
be used at home.

[https://www.youtube.com/user/maestrovitoiacopelli](https://www.youtube.com/user/maestrovitoiacopelli)

------
34679
I highly recommend the book "American Pie: My Search for the Perfect Pizza". I
have a digital version and it took my pizza game to the next level.

>Master bread baker Peter Reinhart follows the origins of pizza from Italy to
the States, capturing the stories behind the greatest artisanal pizzas of the
Old World and the New.

>Beginning his journey in Genoa, Reinhart scours the countryside in search of
the fabled focaccia col formaggio. He next heads to Rome to sample the famed
seven-foot-long pizza al taglio, and then to Naples for the archetypal pizza
napoletana. Back in America, the hunt resumes in the unlikely locale of
Phoenix, Arizona, where Chris Bianco of Pizzeria Bianco has convinced many
that his pie sets the new standard in the country. The pizza mecca of New
Haven, grilled pizza in Providence, the deep-dish pies of Chicago, California-
style pizza in San Francisco and Los Angeles—these are just a few of the tasty
attractions on Reinhart's epic tour.

>Returning to the kitchen, Reinhart gives a master class on pizza-making
techniques and provides more than 60 recipes for doughs, sauces and toppings,
and the pizzas that bring them all together. His insatiable curiosity and gift
for storytelling make American Pie essential reading for those who aspire to
make great pizza at home, as well as for anyone who enjoys the thrill of the
hunt.

~~~
cmain
Mastering Pizza by Marc Vetri is another good one. As well as The Pizza Bible
by Tony Gemignani.

------
rv-de
I very much enjoy making pizza (or pasta) in the evening after work. It's a
great way to relax, watch something on the side and provides some kind of
Italian style escapism where you enter semi-consciously a fantasy world of
Mediterranean savoir vivre (what's the Italian term here?). In the end I enjoy
(usually together with my girlfriend or guests) the result with a nice bottle
of red wine which provides the elevating intoxication to round up the
experience.

I like to experiment with my pizza and pasta recipes and place focus on trying
to keep it simple. I believe that art benefits of some structure. Think
rhyming patterns in poems or tonality in music. I'm aware of atonal music or
not rhyming poetry but that's my point - it's a very different experience -
more difficult. That's why I also like to not go and buy the best most
expensive ingredients but instead attempt to restrict them to what I get from
ALDI. Sometimes I'm just going crazy in some bio market and just buy the top
notch stuff. But it seems that the taste is not that much depending on whether
the tomatoes are from San Marzano or your run-of-the-mill variety from a
regular super market.

My latest - not yet used - pizza gadget is an oven stone. Can't wait to find
out how it will affect the outcome.

~~~
joefourier
A pizza stone is a definite improvement, but what will make an absolute world
of difference is a proper pizza oven (preferably wood-fired, but gas also
works).

I instantly went from mediocre home pizza to almost restaurant grade simply by
switching from my household oven to an Ooni, despite using the same
ingredients and preparation method.

------
chiefalchemist
I typically buy my dough from Trader Joe's but what to start doing it myself.
There's a recipe in the article, but anyone else have a goto recipe they love?

~~~
mhh__
[https://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza-
recipes.html](https://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza-recipes.html)

Perhaps start with the New York style

~~~
KozmoNau7
Specifically this one: [https://www.pizzamaking.com/lehmann-
nystyle.php](https://www.pizzamaking.com/lehmann-nystyle.php)

Which should really be called a Roman-style pizza tonde dough, which is the
style that was predominantly adopted in NYC.

------
balls187
The first episode of Ugly Delicious on Netflix was about Pizza, including
Neapolitan pizza.

Chef Chang ordered Domino's pizza to one of the restaurants. Hilarious.

------
Krasnol
I prefer thicker dough for my pizza.

Those ultra-thin doughs just feel like a cheat.

550 flour, half cube yeast, a tiny spoon salt and sugar, 150ml milk filled up
by water to ~275ml fluid. 5 spoons oil. Knead the dough and add the fluid.
When it's nice textured leave it for the rest of the day or at least a few
hours.

You get a dough you can load full with whatever you want and you'll have
enough food for a few days.

------
nonamenoslogan
Personally, I like my Pizazz Pizza plate/oven thing. I make dough out of like
5 ingredients and let it rise for a few hours in the fridge. Top with whatever
and eat--pizza is about enjoyment to me, not this Anthony Bourdain never
ending quest for the perfect slice of sushi, its about making it, enjoying it,
eating it.

------
cmod
This is the best video on making neapolitan style at home with an cast iron
pan and oven:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXAW2GseICs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXAW2GseICs)

I've used this method a few times to superb results.

~~~
rv-de
pizza from a pan ... that's downright frivolous - can't wait to give that a
try!

------
dredmorbius
For a practical, home-bakable, sourdough recipe I can vouch for:

[https://youtube.com/watch?v=HXAW2GseICs](https://youtube.com/watch?v=HXAW2GseICs)

Top comment: "There is more drama in this video than in the entire
Transformers franchise."

------
ykevinator
Great read, thanks for sharing, there was just a new oven announced, I think
it's ooni, which is for this kind of pizza. It's an outdoor propane pizza
oven. BTW, I'm not sure you can cook pizza at 500 degrees in 90 seconds like
the article says.

~~~
kellycor
I have an Ooni 3 (burns wood pellets). It gets up to 800-900 degrees. The
first pizza cooks in 60 seconds. Each pizza after that takes a little longer.
It’s an impressive little oven.

------
tomcooks
The article fails to mention Roman "pinsa", which was commonplace a _bit_
earlier than 1700 and is what gave pizza its name.

[https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinsa](https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinsa)

~~~
toyg
Damn, the pinsa is delicious. Very hard to find outside of the Roma/Lazio
region though.

~~~
tomcooks
Yes? You can find it in most big cities around Northern Italy

~~~
toyg
Not really - you can find _focaccia_ of various types which is close but not
quite that.

~~~
tomcooks
I know the difference between a focaccia and a pinsa.

Turin, Milan, Bergamo, Brescia and other cities have a lot of "pinseria"
joints. Ma tipo tante eh. Saluti!

~~~
toyg
Maybe they don't cross the Po then, not really seen them in Emilia :)

------
nakedrobot2
Get the G3 Ferrari electric pizza oven. you can cook a pizza in 2-3 minutes in
that. There is even (of course!) an online community of pizza oven hackers who
install additional electric heating elements in the oven to get the
temperature even higher :)

------
pachico
Disclaimer: I grew up in Italy and frequently travel there.

Best pizza I ever had was in Vienna, yes, made by an Italian but not the
classical Napolitan pizza. I strongly prefer Rome as reference for it.

------
teekert
I'm surprised they use yeast and not sourdough as that would add more flavor.
Sourdough is surprisingly easy to make and maintain btw. During these wfh days
especially: Just mix 50grams of flour with 50 grams of water and leave in an
open container for a couple of days, when you see bubbles, put half of is
(50gr) together with 25gr of flour and 25gr of water, repeat. In a bread of
500 grams of meal and 250 ml of water, add 100 gr of your bubbling sourdough,
kneed, let rise for 3 hours, and overnight into the fridge, easy peasy.

Btw, that standard kneeding hook of the Kitchen aid is really a pos: Get a
better one asap.

~~~
toyg
For the daily "HN teaches you to" segment: HN teaches Neapolitan pizza master
how to make pizza.

~~~
1123581321
This comment lessens the discussion; the one you replied to does not, even if
it is not the best suggestion.

~~~
toyg
Sometime the discussion needs a reality check.

~~~
teekert
My surprise needs a reality check? I guess a surprise is always a reality
check...

------
auiya
Source ingredients that are only available in one location on earth, and cook
using a device which is very uncommon in most households. Sure, easy.

------
carlesfe
A question for italians: do you use raw tomato puree, or do you fry it? I've
always used fried tomato puree (fried at home with olive oil)

~~~
1024core
I'm not Italian, but from what I've seen (from watching YT videos on pizzas)
they say always use the raw puree.

------
jpm_sd
I always have a hard time getting the dough stretched out really thin. I end
up with super floof pizza. What am I doing wrong?

~~~
nkozyra
You may not be letting it sit long enough or you may not be stretching it long
enough.

The advantage of the dough toss is the centrifugal force that adds enough
force to stretch the dough a lot and evenly.

If I don't spin my dough I get a pie crust that's too thick.

------
hellofunk
The term “margherita pizza” suggests a different authentic meaning compared to
the widespread conception.

------
tmaly
My biggest challenge has been making a good sauce. I love making pizza at home
with my kids.

~~~
KozmoNau7
Honestly, I prefer using _good_ passata and just a bit of salt and olive oil.
If you can't get passata, use crushed tomatoes and blend them first. Don't
cook it, any canned tomato product has already been heated as part of the
canning process. Quality matters, don't use the cheap cans from the
supermarket.

I'm lucky that I have an absolutely fantastic Italian specialty store here in
Copenhagen, where I can get amazing quality canned tomatoes and great cuts of
cured meat for toppings. And 'nduja, oh boy the 'nduja. For cheese I actually
use completely ordinary Danish Havarti, it's like a slightly aged low-moisture
whole milk mozzarella, it melts great and it's available literally everywhere
here.

Neapolitan pizza is something you really need a wood-fired oven or something
that gets similarly hot. An ordinary oven won't cut it. As I live in an
apartment and have very limited space for gadgets, I stick to Roman-style
pizza tonde, where you can get absolutely amazing results in an ordinary oven
with a baking steel (mine is an 8mm thick 8kg slab of iron from an industrial
steelworks, but the commercial ones are great too).

------
xchip
Please ignore all these experts, all they want is to make you feel special
because you drink/eat their stuff.

Above a certain threshold one cannot tell the difference between good and very
good. Wine tasters know it and it has been very well documented.

When it comes to flavours, as long as it doesn't harm you, your judgement is
as good as anybody else.

~~~
keiferski
I really wish this wine meme would die. Essentially every test done to ‘prove’
that there’s no difference between cheap and expensive wines has had two
massive flaws:

1\. The label of ‘wine expert’ is left undefined. True sommeliers have spent
thousands of hours studying wine and are not the same thing as a guy that
takes a weekend wine-tasting course and gets a certificate. Yet most ‘studies’
fail to mention this.

 _Just as importantly here, what literally every single source we could find
not only leaves out when reporting this story, but in the vast majority of
cases falsely states, is the actual qualifications of those being tested by
Brochet. It turns out, the people he was using as taste testers were not
experts at all, simply undergraduate students studying oenology (wine and wine
making). While certainly probably more knowledgeable than your average person
on the street, nobody would call an undergraduate mathematics major just
learning the ropes a “math expert”, nor would their skills be indicative of
what their professors who have vastly more experience and are actual experts
are capable of doing._

2\. The ‘experiments’ are done in a totally unscientific arbitrary way, with
massive amounts of suggestion and psychological influence. If this were any
other scientific study, it would be laughed out of the room for its total lack
of rigor.

 _As the Master Sommeliers demonstrate by passing the taste test they are
subjected to in the first place, with enough time and study, there are
actually people who are exceptionally good at identifying and judging
attributes of wines in the right circumstances. But overwhelm there sense with
100 wines or change their expectations about what they are tasting and their
perceptions will change significantly, seemingly, making them little better
than a random person off the street at telling anything definitive about the
wine._

[https://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2019/07/can-
profess...](https://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2019/07/can-professional-
wine-connoisseurs-really-not-tell-the-difference-between-expensive-wines-and-
cheap-wines/)

~~~
saiya-jin
A simple flaw in your reasoning - none of the target audience of this
comparison is actually a sommelier expert. The whole argument is about an
average joe sampling say a wine costing say 15 euros in france and one costing
500. And the same average joe benefiting very little if at all from paying too
much. Its like buying La Ferrari which all experts praise, when all you need
is to drive 80kmh to next town.

I personally, by no means an expert in any way, can attest the difference is
minimal and mostly comes down to one's own preferences / pairing of wine with
food in given situation.

Its often one of those markets where you buy your own emotions with higher
price rather than actual, measurable subjective added value.

But yes, if you use a wine costing 2-3 euros, quality of taste in many aspects
will be incomparable even to that average joe.

~~~
easytiger
> But yes, if you use a wine costing 2-3 euros, quality of taste in many
> aspects will be incomparable even to that average joe.

2-3 euro wine tastes disgusting to even an "average joe"

~~~
saiya-jin
I mentioned prices in euro and France for a reason - there are wine in 2-3
euros category that can be bought there ie in Carrefour/Casino, that qualify
as say 'table wine' and are perfectly fine for having say with lunch and
dinner. No bad/sour aftertaste, taste is simple but very smooth.

The country I come from, this would be put in above-average quality (which
isn't very nice to my home country, but that's my experience).

------
867-5309
someone mentioned honey instead of sugar, can I have some thoughts on milk
instead of water and brown instead of white flour?

~~~
nakedrobot2
\- don't use sugar at all

\- no

\- no

~~~
867-5309
I've seen them all in recipes and am seeking alternatives, but thanks anyway..

------
chesterarthur
The secret to great pizza sauce is more sugar than you’d expect.

~~~
tomcooks
I don't understand the downvotes, given that sugar both feeds the yeast
bacteria needed for proper rising, and to balance the high acidity of
tomatoes.

~~~
gnrlst
yes but you don't mix the dough with the tomatoes until the very end so it
wouldn't impact the yeast. With proper flour sugar is not necessary, as the
flour itself will be broken down by the yeast (hence the maturing/proofing
stage). If you "exhaust" the flour, then you'll need sugar to get an
"artificial" Maillard reaction and a nice browning of the crust.

~~~
tomcooks
Yes obviously you don't add tomatoes and sugar to the dough, you prepare a
sauce on the side and add a bit of sugar to that.

Yeast needing no sugar to work is something I've never heard of, could you
please forward more information about this? Thank you.

~~~
cyphar
Dough will rise just as well without any added sugar -- the starches in the
flour are the primary food source for the yeast. If you don't believe me, try
it yourself. The purpose of sugar in doughs is to assist browning --
especially at home-oven temperatures -- and "improve" the flavour. I
personally prefer baking dough without sugar, but you do whatever you prefer.

~~~
tomcooks
I prefer to experiment, that's why I'm asking more details. I'll try right
now.

------
cosmodisk
Pizza is a dough base with some veg and cheese sprinkled on top of it. Lets
not make it more special than it needs to be. It's not very hard to make it
and even first time it will taste good enough.Maybe not as good as if some
Italian would do it but definitely not bad either.

~~~
C19is20
Your beer thoughts?

~~~
progre
Using this exact reasoning I have gone from microbrew IPA:s to cheap straight
vodka.

