
Mindfulness may have been over-hyped - abhi3
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20180502-does-mindfulness-really-improve-our-health
======
ecwilson
Well, mindfulness certainly has been overhyped. Apps and gurus have pushed it
as a cure-all and people have eaten it up because our society is broken and
people are over stressed. Mindfulness is simply an introductory technique
meant to be expanded upon.

Personally, I've still found it very useful. When I'm meditating frequently,
I'm less reactive -- it's like there's this new sense of "self" that is
observing and controlling my brain, whereas before, or when my meditation
habit lapses, my brain is just doing it's thing in a more reactive way. This
has been incredibly useful both personally and professionally.

~~~
jonny_eh
I don't think our society is broken, at least not more-so compared to any
other generation.

~~~
sudosteph
You're spot on. Anyone who thinks our society is broken now compared to the
past is being ignorant of how downright terrible life was for most of humanity
throughout history.

This society has given me, a female individual, full autonomy over my body, my
education, and my career prospects (for most anything short of being a
catholic priest!) and protects my right to that autonomy via law. My
grandmother didn't even have that. This society has produced and distributed
vaccines that protect my entire generation from devastating illness. This
society has seen the harm that inhumane treatment towards people of color and
homosexual people has and legislated protections for both (cultural norms are
still behind in some places, but vastly improved over previous generations).

You may think that too many facebook notifications is stressful, but how
stressed do you think Alan Turing felt when he was tried for indecency and
medically castrated for being gay? Heck, compared to many generations before
that (and some deeply conservative societies that still exist in theocracies
today), he was lucky to not be murdered by the government.

I freaking love modern western society and refuse to shrug off all the
progress we've made and cast it aside as "broken".

~~~
ecwilson
If you think nothing is wrong with society and everything is great, that's
interesting to me. It makes me wonder how much luck you've experienced in your
life. I have certainly experienced a ton.

For most Americans, their reality is massive income inequality, insane
healthcare expenses, working shitty jobs for 40+ hours a week, suffering from
some kind chronic or preventable illness, and numbing the pain with 5 hours of
TV per day. It's total shit.

Granted, it's less shit than it was 50 years ago in terms of social progress,
medical advances, etc. But fundamentally, I believe it's still broken for the
vast majority of people, if you were to somehow measure the NPS of being a
human. ("Would you recommend being a human to a friend or colleague?")

~~~
sudosteph
I never said nothing is wrong. I said that compared to every point in time
before now it is fundamentally much better, especially for people who were
invisible or oppressed due to sex, race or disability. Because it is so
improved calling it broken is meaningless, because it has always been broken.

Working your life away for a substandard living is not a new thing. Not by a
mile. It's the norm for history. Someone is always getting exploited. The 40
hour work week was a right that we fought for. The fact that we even have
treatments and preventions for illnesses (and get new ones every day, that hep
C cure for example) means we are improving, and ensuring people have access is
a problem many people are invested in fixing (millenials are big supporters of
universal healthcare, it will be a thing one day).

I do think I'm lucky though. I was the first person in my family to grow up
middle class. I never had to rely on food banks or welfare, I didn't have to
spend all my free time caring for my siblings while my parents worked. My mom
had to do those things growing up, but she escaped it because she earned a
scholarship to a state university and could get by with that and a part time
job. Society is the one who built that college and gave her that chance, even
when her family would not or could not. I am thankful for that, because at
least I now have the knowledge and opportunity to fix things that do need
fixing. And there are plenty. But I don't think for a second that I would have
had more opportunity to do that if I had been born at any point in time
before.

~~~
ecwilson
Thank you for the thoughtful reply. You're completely right about life being
fundamentally better for the invisible/oppressed. I take your point -- it was
always broken for them.

------
thepumpkin1979
I can tell it’s a billion dollar business, I launched a Meditation app two
months ago, we had good retention and users were loving the app. Then the guy
we hired to do the voice over disappeared with no explanation so we couldn’t
fulfill our promise of “daily meditation” because the voice was not the same.
15 days later I understood why: We received a Cease and Desist from one of the
companies behind the top meditation and mindfulness apps in the AppStore. They
certainly don’t want anybody to enter that niche.

~~~
fwip
Your voice guy quit because he knew 15 days from then you'd receive a cease &
desist letter from another company?

~~~
thepumpkin1979
We hired him in a talent website, when I say he disappeared is because he was
just unavailable to continue doing the voice over for us, he was not available
for booking anymore. I suspect this company reached out to him, booked him
heavily or something so he was not available for us.

------
Insanity
When I see mindfulness mentioned, I am often reminded of my eastern philosophy
classes. Mindfulness is not a 'moment of the day', it's a way of living your
life.

The idea was that in the west, we would take these ideas and try to fit them
into a western world which is a world where time == money. So you get these
things like 'mindfulness classes' where, for one hour, you practice being in a
state of mindfulness whilst the rest of the week you go through your life as
usual.

I guess that when we took the idea of mindfulness and put it in a package that
fit our society, it might have gotten hyped and more distant from its essence.
This just to state that mindfulness might still be worth your time - just not
the 'prepackaged' version.

* Small disclaimer: I do not practice it, I'm just being a parrot of some philosophy classes that I thought were interesting.

~~~
criddell
Kurt Vonnegut made me more mindful before I even knew that was a word. In _A
Man Without a Country_ he relays some advice given to him by his uncle:

> I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or
> think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.

Since reading that ten years ago I've done that almost daily. Often I'm only
saying it to my dog but it certainly has made me appreciate the small moments
that can be wonderful.

------
qntty
Alternatively: meditation turns out to be harder than popularizers tend to let
on

~~~
agumonkey
It's also probably impossible to assess whether someone is or not meditating.

~~~
the-pigeon
I thought there was particular brain wave patterns associated with it. Which
if so you could certainly measure them.

~~~
proverbialbunny
There was a study where they wrote some software with a bar on it representing
brain activity in the area of the brain that decreases when meditating. They
then told people to try to get the bar to go down. This worked, and showed
that meditation can one day be made easy, and is a valuable tool that can be
studied in a clear way.

------
hikarudo
There's an article [1] entitled "Meditation en masse - how colonialism sparked
the global Vipassana movement".

When the British conquered the Buddhist kingdom of Burma, Buddhism lost the
protection it had from the king. The laity then organized in order to defend
their Buddhist institutions, and people began to study the dhamma like never
before.

This gave rise to talented monks who preached to the laity. Then Ledi Sayadaw,
a Burmese monk, began preaching that meditation was not something that only
monks who dedicated their lives to it could do, but was available to anyone.
This led to a lineage of lay teachers of meditation, one of whom was Goenka,
the founder of the Vipassana meditation movement.

In short, the modern Vipassana movement has its origins in the popularization
of meditation which was a result of British colonialism in Burma.

[1] [https://tricycle.org/magazine/meditation-en-
masse/](https://tricycle.org/magazine/meditation-en-masse/)

~~~
curlcntr
I have the book the author of that article wrote (The Birth of Insight:
Meditation, Modern Buddhism, and the Burmese Monk Ledi Sayadaw). Its an
interesting book. Historical perspective on ideas is fascinating.

------
jknoepfler
As someone who meditates daily, I would be surprised if meditation had
substantial therapeutic benefit for anything beyond some behavioral disorders.

Meditation for me is about truth seeking. I emerge from zazen feeling as
though I understand myself and the world around me more honestly. It has long
term implications for how I think and behave, certainly, but probably not in
any medically interesting sense.

I don't expect studying physics or building a deck to change my health
outcomes measurably. Meditating isn't different in kind.

The value that I gain from "just sitting" is not something I can articulate
very well in words. I would certainly encourage others to meditate daily, but
meditation won't mend broken bones or unclog arteries or replace
neurotransmitters the body can't produce enough of naturally. It's just
sitting, after all.

~~~
dwaltrip
> feeling as though I understand myself and the world around me more honestly

That sounds like it could be rather therapeutic for many folks. Small changes
in perspectives can make a big difference, I think.

------
chaseha
The comments here so far seem to be focusing on the click-baity title... the
article is actually a good review of mindfulness research and next steps in
the field

~~~
dimal
90% of it was touting the benefits. I kept reading to see if it would get to
the part where it’s all bunk, but it never did.

------
jacquesm
You don't say. I've seen companies that really couldn't afford it get sucked
in to this nonsense at great expense and with very little to show for it. But
some 'mindfulness consultant' made off with the loot. Besides the fact that
you can't really force employees into stuff that they wouldn't do out of their
own volition (imagine a company that suddenly forced all the employees to
visit Scientology sessions regularly or something that effect).

These hype cycles only serve the people that peddle the hype.

Of course people are totally free to do what they want in their own time and
if they feel like spending that on 'mindfulness' (which conveniently is so
vague it could mean just about anything) then that's fine. Back in the 80's
everybody seemed to have their personal Guru, now we have this. 20 years from
now we'll probably have something else that takes its place.

~~~
heckanoobs
You should separate trendy goal-oriented mindfulness from the thousands year
old concept so you aren't throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

A mindfulness consultant forced onto a workforce sounds about as effective as
forcing all your employees to run five miles every week. But that doesn't mean
that running is bad for you.

~~~
rayiner
People believed a lot of dumb things for millenia. The fact that people have
believed it a long time is no reason to think the idea has merit.

~~~
Erik816
It's actually an amazingly good reason to think an idea has merit. Unless you
think all your ancestors were just idiots.

~~~
brian_cloutier
> Unless you think all your ancestors were just idiots

This doesn't follow, you can be smart and also wrong. It's also possible to be
smart and not have good enough tools. The randomized controlled trial (RCT),
for instance, is a marvelous tool that might sound obvious to you, but that's
only because you received the kind of education which wasn't possible for most
of history. Those ancestors from a millenia ago, however smart they were,
didn't have RCTs and didn't have the world-view which would make them value
RCTs and even if they did their peers certainly didn't have the right world-
view to value things learned from RCTs and as a result, through no fault of
their own, those ancestors had a much harder time understanding reality than
we do.

~~~
jacquesm
You could also be super smart and be giving the wrong information.

------
dvcrn
If it wasn’t this overhyped, and if not everyone and their dog told me to try
it, it would have never crossed my mind.

If it works or not, I don’t know but I enjoy my moment of silence a lot. I
also love that it gives me more and more frequently moments where I realize
where and when I actually am instead of moving on autopilot through my day.

As cliche as it sounds, I for example stopped listening to music on the train
and just listen to my surroundings and “be there”. My social media and phone
addiction almost completely disappeared and I’m just in general a nicer
person.

Again, what of that is actually attributed to meditation and mindfulness, I
don’t know but it’s been great.

------
eptcyka
Usually, practicing being mindful just brings about more anxiety than if I
were to lose myself into doing something that has the capability of swallowing
me whole - such as playing video games, running, driving, having long walks.

~~~
phailhaus
> lose myself into doing something that has the capability of swallowing me
> whole

That's what being mindful is all about! It teaches you how to be present in
the moment and let those negative anxious thoughts pass by rather than consume
you.

~~~
sridca
> let those negative anxious thoughts pass by rather than consume you.

Lol, I'd much rather prefer for those negative anxious thoughts to not occur
in the first place (and there is a superior method to achieve this), much less
having to have to let them pass by or consume me. This is why meditation is
not a solution.

~~~
phailhaus
Trying to suppress your thoughts is not a solution either, that just gives
them more weight. When you let them by, you realize that they were not worth
the attention in the first place, and they fade away over time. There is no
quick fix.

~~~
sridca
suppression != not-occurring

~~~
phailhaus
Unfortunately I think you'll find that not everything can be solved, and that
you'll always have _some_ anxiety. It would actually be strange if you didn't,
everyone has these thoughts every so often. The trick is to not let them take
over you, and just move on.

I suspect you're doing this without realizing it; you're analyzing your
anxieties until you understand them, and then they stop happening over time as
you stop giving them so much attention.

~~~
sridca
I've met people who have eliminated all of their anxieties (and more), so it
is certainly possible. I do not armchair analyze or suppress feelings
(sincerity is an essential ingredient). There is no need to guess; you could
just ask me as to how I investigate and eventually eliminate; though mind you
it will likely conflict with much of your cherished values about humanity :-P

~~~
phailhaus
Sure, would you mind explaining what you did?

~~~
sridca
It takes some effort to grasp the method of actualism, so I've linked the wiki
below[1] if you're interested in exploring further (most people run away at
this stage :P), but the basic method is to feel good, as a bottom-line, each
and every moment again ... and sincerely explore (neither withdrawing nor
psychoanalyzing) any hindrances to that feeling good until one can clearly see
the silliness (whatever it is) of it preventing one from enjoying this moment
(which clear seeing is sufficient to get back to feeling good). It is as
simple as that (and, before you bring up any parallel, it is 180 degrees
opposite to any meditation/ stoicism practices that HN is so fond of).

[1]
[https://github.com/ActualFreedom/home/wiki](https://github.com/ActualFreedom/home/wiki)

~~~
phailhaus
What is the depth of emotion that you can experience if you are constantly
trying to feel good?

------
duncan_bayne
Is there a name for this cycle?

1\. Useful $THING gets mentioned in the news (mindfulness, AI, cryptocurrency,
...)

2\. $THING gets hyped into orbit ($THING consultants, $THING apps, $THING
books, $THING as a way of life, ...)

3\. We start seeing articles like "$THING has been over-hyped" or "$THING
results not replicated".

4\. $THING drops out of the limelight, sometimes into a worse position than it
started in because of the 'negative' press.

5\. A new $THING emerges ...

 _Edited_ : not trying to be snarky here (see below for the actual term I was
looking for). It's just that this is a pattern I've seen repeated so many
times, in tech. and elsewhere.

~~~
jdelaney
There's something similar to what you describe called the Hype Cycle -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hype_cycle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hype_cycle)

~~~
alex_young
Alternatively: Six phases of a big project \-
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_phases_of_a_big_project](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_phases_of_a_big_project)

------
Zak
I'd compare it to a physical workout: it's not necessarily a good treatment
for a specific disease or injury and may even be harmful to a person who isn't
well. Being in shape, however makes a person generally more resilient to
disease and injury.

------
tim333
The article talks a lot about PTSD but mindfulness meditation was not designed
for that so it's maybe not surprising it doesn't fix it. Funnily enough they
recently seem to have found a fix with MDMA
[https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/mdma-ecstasy-
mdma-...](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/mdma-ecstasy-mdma-post-
traumatic-stress-disorder-veterans-a8332561.html)

Mindfulness, according to Wikipedia:

>In Buddhist teachings, mindfulness is utilized to develop self-knowledge and
wisdom that gradually lead to what is described as enlightenment

(by the way there were recent discussions of meditation, more of the get thing
done variety, by the Sapiens guy here
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13905249](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13905249)
and a link to Seinfeld on Meditation
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13909346](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13909346)
which I'm having a look at)

~~~
ghthor
Id consider the induced state when I've tried MDMA to be very similar to
mindfulness. It feels like I have better communication with my body, and it's
easier to listen to it.

------
suneilp
There is too much analysis of mindfulness and meditation. So you'll end up
with analyzing yourself too much while looking for that glorious state of
detaching your self from your self to get into that witness mode and apply all
the philosophies, ideals, influences crammed into your head to each thought
you have.

So my suggestion is while meditating, drop all that stuff, sit alone at
home/indoor, or quiet outdoor area, and just be meditative while listening to
your breath instead of "meditating", and trust you understand basic human
decency. Being yogic-like, or whatever, doesn't mean you have to be what
people commonly think that means. Just be you.

That's how I've always viewed yoga/tantra as at it's core. There is more to
yoga and tantra than that but there is no need to go there unless you're
interested. For most people, they just want to de-stress and heal their mind
and body and be themselves. The regular practice of meditation like this
extends into regular activities and has improved my productivity, tempered my
reactivity to shit, etc.

------
gowld
I never understood the difference or relationship between trace-like
"meditation" and "mindfulness" (which I thought is something like
introspecting into your mental state to recognize and defuse your emotions,
like the "HALT: Hunger, Anger, Loneliness, and Tiredness" self-check)

~~~
sudosteph
Transcendental meditation is probably the trance like one you have in mind,
and that's very different from the far more established Buddhist practice of
"mindfulness" which is traditionally practiced via meditation. Transcendental
meditation is just repeating a nonsense phrase over and over. Both practices
typically have you sit still for 15 minutes, but that's where the similarities
end.

Mindfulness practice encompasses cultivating awareness of internal states, so
the HALT thing can be seen as a limited form of that. The meditation aspect is
typically used more to practice non-reactivity, body awareness, and to
understand the temporary nature of things. For example, in one practice you
sit still and make a mental note of all the sounds you hear. You hear them
start and end, consider the qualities of the sound (loud, rhythmic, high
pitch, etc) and you notice your reaction to them (do you get startled when the
ice maker goes off? Are the sounds of birds calming?). You allow yourself to
welcome new sounds into your perception, and try not to linger or dwell on old
ones when they're gone. Obviously it's not directly practical to most things,
but the idea is that you learn to feel alright with the temporary nature of
things, pleasant or unpleasant, and can then apply that to your own emotions
or other external situations.

------
shekharshan
Buddha gave the path of end of suffering as eight noble qualities: "right
view", "right intention", "right speech", "right action", "right effort",
"right livelihood", "right mindfulness", and "right concentration".

Notice "right mindfulness" is different than "right concentration" and it is
just 1/8th of the path. When your hypothesis is 1/8th of the complete picture,
of course your studies will prove it does not work.

------
ahartmetz
This seems to be a phenomenon similar to "agile washing". It actually works if
you internalize it, turn it over in your mind and make it your own. It doesn't
work if you just hire a trainer and otherwise treat it as a necessary evil.
Based on the opinion of a friend who reports good results from reading a book
about mindfulness and practicing it.

There are a bunch of similar comments here, this is just a slightly different
angle on it.

------
anoncoward1234
Mindfulness isn't over-hyped. Mindfulness takes __effort __. There 's crazy
videos of buddhist monks walking on their thumbs. People can raise their body
temperature several degrees at will (and it's how a lot of open ocean swimmers
survive, say, crossing the english channel). But it takes practice, every day,
for years and you can't fake it - you're body knows you're cheating and can't
be bribed.

Given that - how do you do a statistical analysis across the population of
mindfulness meditation vs. pill popping? Pills always work, often with
horrible debilitating side effects (yay Opioids!). Meanwhile the monk I met
who learned to walk again after being confined to a wheelchair (gymnastics
injury) had to sit under a tree for several years doing muscle exercises and
willing the pain away.

So of course science can't rationalize it. How do you measure the strength of
will of people? It's not so easy to put these sorts of things into a study. So
I guess we'll keep eating the poison pill. Shrug.

~~~
wilsonnb
People heal from injuries using physical therapy on a regular basis.

I also don't know what walking on ones thumbs has to do with mindfullness.

You don't need to do a statistical analysis. We have other tools that can be
used like double blind trials comparing meditation and medication.

Anyways, I think you should be very careful about placing much stock in
anything that can't be studied in a scientific way. Such a thing would by
definition have no measurable effect on the world or be unchangeable.

------
silentsea90
$$$ via attention seeking articles : First X gets hyped thanks to tons of
articles from publications like this, then there are counter articles calling
X overhyped. Then there are articles calling for balance/nuance in X. X = AI,
mindfulness, blockchain, health tracking apps, self driving cars, yoga...

News businesses will create a hype curve for every phenomenon.

~~~
wepple
I realized this the other day in the shower: media outlets basically argue
with themselves to create their own hype cycles.

First it’s a fringe crazy idea, then it’s the new hotness, then it should be a
part of your daily life, then someone decides they’re edgy and it’s not for
them, then it’s basically cancer, then a story of how it grew too fast and has
collapsed.

And the funny thing is, it’s almost a negative signal of what’s valuable. By
the time The Guardian or CNN is talking about bitcoin, you have no chance of
making a dime.

------
macawfish
Say the same people responsible for the overhyping headlines. Obnoxious!

Meanwhile at University of Wisconsin, Madison:

 _Study reveals gene expression changes with meditation_

[https://news.wisc.edu/study-reveals-gene-expression-
changes-...](https://news.wisc.edu/study-reveals-gene-expression-changes-with-
meditation/)

------
maroonblazer
The original article appears here with the much less click-baity headline:

"Peering into the meditating mind"

[https://www.knowablemagazine.org/article/mind/2018/peering-m...](https://www.knowablemagazine.org/article/mind/2018/peering-
meditating-mind)

------
spicymaki
Yes, extracting the mindfulness techniques out of vipassana practice and then
trying to use it to cure PTSD, anxiety, and poor work performance is bound to
fail. Being mindful of your neurotic behavior is useful, but it does not help
unless you act and change the circumstances that is causing the problem.

~~~
glenndebacker
I have PTSD and practice mindfulness/buddhism and while it doesn't cure it, it
certainly does help a lot. You can only act and change the circumstances when
you have some new insights and there is where mindfulness/buddhism helps me.
It is certainly not the case of I'm meditating and miraculously all my
problems go away...

Personally I don't think that mindfulness/medition/... is overhyped but the
tools/apps/courses are. There is really no need to spends hunderds of euro's
to being mindfull or learn the practices.

------
Mikeb85
Mindfulness isn't overhyped, but it also doesn't work if you're not committed.
Mindfulness seminars or apps aren't going to change you, they might be a nice
introduction, but meditation is a practice that you need to make part of your
life to truly get results.

------
qwerty456127
It can be considered "over-hyped" in a way but I believe it is not hyped
sufficiently as long as the majority of people still haven't mastered it. Lack
of mindfulness skill and habit is pretty much like the "gluteal amnesia"
syndrome: there is a natural thing your butt muscles should be doing all the
way you go but in just so many people it doesn't, same thing with your mind
and mindfulness. And you don't necessarily need an instructor for this: it's a
valid way to get started but for many people (not for everybody, of course)
some books and free YouTube videos can be enough as well.

------
thisisit
I am not surprised because Mindfulness is not a cure-all.

I recently read Goleman's Emotional Intelligence. One of the key takeaways for
me was the nature of mindfulness/meditation. To paraphase Goleman
Mindfulness/meditation works by alleviating your mood. So, if there is lot of
anger or you tend to get worried a lot, meditation works.

But, if you tend to be more dispirited most of the time then meditation
actually doesn't work for you. A better solution is to try and get into an
upbeat mood. Exercise, exciting adventure sports etc might be a better option.

------
matte_black
Mindfulness brings no advantage except the realization that we are not our
mind, that we exist as a being beyond it, that our thoughts are mostly
response to stimulus. If you ignore stimulus, there are no thoughts. If you
observe the mind intently, it inevitably struggles to do much thinking about
anything. What is profound about this conclusion?

Nothing.

It does not lead to better memories. It does not lead to more satisfaction. It
does not bring more joy. It does not make you more productive. Does it help
you focus better? Maybe. But practicing to actually _focus_ is much more
efficient.

~~~
jm__87
There is a difference between knowing something objectively and experiencing
it subjectively. The really hardcore meditators do it not just so they can
recount the experience of emptiness to someone but so they can actually feel
it and learn from the experience itself firsthand.

It's like asking someone who did psychedelics to explain it to you. They'll
always tell you the experience is not something you can understand with words
alone.

------
wizardofmysore
I have been practicing mindfulness meditation for the past five years and it
has shown positive benefits for mental health in terms of being less reactive
and calm. My immunity has also increased, I used to have a lot of allergies
and used to get throat infection regularly but I don't now.

One observation is that mindfulness meditation in the night reduced sleep
quality.

Second is that mindfulness meditation is another exercise. It is aimed at
increasing focus, since what you are doing is trying to focus. It isn't a cure
for every mental ailment.

------
fourthark
"Or it may not have. We don't really know anything."

I find these articles very frustrating.

"Maybe it's good, sounds like of good, right? But studies are inconclusive!"

So what are you saying? And why so many stock photos?

------
keeptrying
The article seems to be struggling to differentiate between mindfulness,
meditation and negative aspects of the same like rumination.

As the battle for our attention increases rapidly, its going to be ever more
important to truly understand all these tools and make use of them.

I think the meaning of mindfulness is mis-understood in a very large part of
the population rather than it being over-hyped.

------
c12
The self-help 'there is a book and a subscription and an app for that' modern
take on mindfulness which is entirely in place to make money is of course
over-hyped and largely predatory in nature.

This shouldn't take away from the fact that mindfulness does help people. Just
that if you're paying for it, you are quite likely doing it wrong.

------
throwaway84742
I think the entire benefit of this (assuming there is any) is in setting aside
a few minutes per day to fully relax. I’m also pretty sure a power nap would
be better, but it’s generally less socially acceptable, especially in a work
environment.

------
curlcntr
Mindfulness style meditation without any goals or objectives, no clock or
apps. No expectations. Just the beauty of it. For me, that has been most
consistent with the nature of the practice itself.

------
danschumann
Wim Hof is where it's at though. Cold exposure and breathing

------
mmajcher
Here's a talk on the subject from famous buddhist monk and teacher Ajahn
Brahm.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGjXEM1HZ54&t=1s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGjXEM1HZ54&t=1s)

TLDR There are other things necessary for mindfulness/meditation to really
take off. Things like ethics, right view and other parts of Eightfold Path
(buddhist practice). Those give a mind basic clarity and joy necessary for
successful practice.

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moreorless
Ask 20 "experts" on what it is and you get 20 different answers. :P

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vermaden
A lot of things today are overhyped.

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sfRattan
No kidding. Dealt with pitches for 'mindfulness' as a practicing stoic for
years.

"Dude, you should check out mindfulness. You'd really be into it."

Nope. As best I could ever tell, mindfulness was a pop-psych pastiche of
various bits of Buddhism, Daoism, and Stoicism designed to sell self-help
books and consulting hours.

I can't speak for Buddhism and I've heard that the Daodejing appears cryptic
now because the body of contemporary Chinese literature it frequently alludes
to has been largely lost to history. But the surviving late stoic works are
surprisingly accessible, even in stilted translations, making it much easier
to see through attempts to repackage old ideas and make a quick buck.

~~~
thomasfromcdnjs
Don't think you deserve the downvotes though you do come off snarky =D

But I always reply the same way to people who preach mindfulness and
meditation to me.

I've independently studied the stoics, the east etc etc for years. And always
made my time for "vita contemplativa" which doesn't necessarily mean sitting
down trying to escape thought.

I am generally much more grounded than anyone even telling me to do it.

Highly recommend these two scholarly volumes about Eastern philosophy ->
[https://www.amazon.com/History-Chinese-Philosophy-Vol-
Philos...](https://www.amazon.com/History-Chinese-Philosophy-Vol-
Philosophers/dp/0691020213)

Can't find the matching references, but he speaks of meditation actually
beginning as a walking ritual. There is also a chapter on the Taoist's who
found mindfulness through being drunk aha

Edit: Also obligatory Nietzche quote -> "Thoughts that come with doves'
footsteps guide the world"

~~~
sfRattan
Thanks for the recommendation. A more thorough investigation of Chinese
history, philosophy, and literature is on my list of long term reading goals.
From what I understand already, we have lost a large amount of literature from
the same period as Laozi, but we have surviving later commentaries on that
literature and on the Daodejing (which give some context).

