
Tesla worst for reliability in American driver survey - TekMol
https://www.driving.co.uk/news/american-survey-claims-tesla-build-quality-issues/
======
darth_avocado
This survey is garbage. Survey design is an art. And unfortunately, this
survey does not differentiate between a big problem like "brakes are shot" and
a small one like "My spotify playlist doesn't show up like I want". Dig a bit
deeper, for Tesla,

> Infotainment is the source of more than a quarter of all problems

Another thing to point out is that J.D. Power’s IQS does not differentiate
between a problem that is the result of a physical fault or a design issue in
which everything works as intended but the learning curve might be too steep.

No doubt Tesla has production issues like any other car maker in the world.
But to truly compare them, a more credible source of information is necessary.

~~~
codazoda
It's also useless in time frame. This is over the first few months of
ownership. I've owned two of the cars that rank near the top of this list and
it's problems after 5 years that I care about. That's when you start to pay
out of pocket and the problems get big. Most cars, now, don't survive ten
years, but I want a car that's reliable from year 5 to year 10.

~~~
kbenson
It's not useless, it's just targeted at a specific audience. Some people only
keep cars for 5 years and then get a new car. I buy used cars about 3 years
old and keep them for 5-6 years, so reliability ratings over later years is
more important for me (which is why I generally buy Honda or Toyota for my
minivan/car needs), but it might not be for those people.

Consumer reports has traditionally been good about showing reliability over
different stages of car lifetime, but it's been a while since I looked.

~~~
brookside
Consumer Reports relies on elective responses to their reliability survey.
Doesn't this make their rankings problematic and statistically invalid?

~~~
kbenson
As opposed to what? JD Powers seems to do the same. If you have a better
survey with more rigorous standards that actually has enough data to by useful
and comparable across many cars and years, I'm all ears.

Here's what both Consumer Reports[1] and JD Powers say about how they collect
their data.

1: [https://auto.howstuffworks.com/buying-selling/consumer-
repor...](https://auto.howstuffworks.com/buying-selling/consumer-reports-
automotive-ratings.htm)

2: [https://www.jdpower.com/faq](https://www.jdpower.com/faq)

------
milkytron
JD Power is clearly in bed with the traditional Detroit automakers.

If you look at their history of rewards[0], you'll find that many times they
choose the big three american companies vehicles over clearly superior import
vehicles. They're vehicles on the page show one vehicle from each of the three
big automakers in the US, one Chevy, one Ford, and a Dodge. There's also a
Volvo in there that I'm sure fought some battles in conference rooms to get
there.

I nearly get triggered every time I heard about these awards in commercials.
They are not to be trusted.

[0]
[https://www.jdpower.com/Cars/Ratings](https://www.jdpower.com/Cars/Ratings)

~~~
screye
As someone who used to be an automobile engineer working for a big automaker
in the a previous life, J.D power rankings are a complete farce.

Their surveys are designed so that a particular automaker will win (overrating
certain metrics for no reason) and then make money by charging automakers to
use those awards.

They have a vested interest in giving awards to automakers that are more in
need of them. (not German or Japanese automakers)

~~~
devy
So technically this is a pay-for-play kind of shenanigans?

~~~
screye
Yes and No.

What JD power does is make a massive number of categories to give awards in.
They then choose metrics for the survey that prioritize certain traits of the
vehicle.

The surveys themselves are conducted in a fair manner and awarded companies
truly deserve those awards. But, in some sense, them winning it was a foregone
conclusion the second the metrics were selected.

It is like conducting a strongest man competition that prioritized height over
anything else. Then the competition was conducted and people from Netherlands
won handedly. By the metrics, Netherlands has won the competition fair and
square. But, using height as the main metric for strength made their victory a
foregone conclusion. Same thing.

Their surveys are free. But, they charge automakers money to use the awards in
marketing. Honda or Toyota doesn't quite care for JD power awards because they
win a lot in other comparisons. But, American manufacturers rely on these
awards to look better, because frankly they don't have much going for them.

~~~
kenhwang
Yep. If you create enough awards, everyone's a winner. My understanding is
that the data itself and the surveying services they offer is actually rather
good, and many automakers actually pay for the raw data and that service.

It's the marketing/awards side that's quite literally garbage. And certain
automakers will pay for this as well.

~~~
screye
Yes. You're absolutely correct

We did used to buy the surveys to understand the results. But the awards
themselves weren't worth much.

------
ALittleLight
I drove a rental Tesla recently. We were parked in a long line waiting to
board a ferry and I was playing chess on the main console. When the line
started to move, I tried to too and car just wouldn't go or start. People
stuck behind me started getting impatient and honking while I was trying to
figure out what had happened, turning off and on again, pressing random
buttons, accidentally popping the trunk, etc. It took several minutes to
realize that the car wouldn't start while you were playing a game on the
console, so I had to quit the game, and then drive.

My point with this anecdote is that it seems to me that Tesla has many such
features, some of which may change with software updates, and, given the
expansive definition of "reliability" used here, perhaps this is a driver of
issues.

I wonder what the rates would be if you restricted it to "issues requiring
professional repair" or something like that.

~~~
brianwawok
As a Tesla owner, I think it’s not a great rental car. A lot to learn.

~~~
ex3ndr
I think it is clearly opposite: media in mazda is insanely hard to learn.

~~~
gambiting
I bet that Mazda is stupidly easy to get into, start, put it in gear and drive
though, and I bet it will behave predictably on the road like a normal car
would. Everything else is secondary. Teslas definitely have a learning curve
if you have never driven one.

~~~
ex3ndr
No, tesla behaves just like a normal car. Changing gear is the same as
Mercedes, default settings makes tesla same as any other car.

If you will change it's settings to something different than it is have to
learn something. Chill Mode + No recuperation + no "one pedal driving" and you
will get typical Mazda behavior.

The biggest issue with tesla is that it is freaking powerful if you are moving
from other car.

~~~
kbenson
> Chill Mode + No recuperation + no "one pedal driving" and you will get
> typical Mazda behavior.

And how likely are you to get exactly that after receiving a rental that
someone else has played with all the settings for? My guess is that the
combined effect of rental agencies not taking the time to reset settings
(bluetooth pairing is never empty on anything I rent) and people wanting to
play with all the extra settings Tesla gives you means you more than likely
receive a Tesla rental in a configuration that is not entirely the same as
driving other cars.

~~~
brianwawok
Also, I don't think that is fully normal car driving.

Does a normal car have a situation where you need to reboot the MCU (media
control unit, basically the computer that powers the screen) in order to open
the glovebox?

Does a normal car have 2 ways to open the door, one of which damages the trim?

Does a normal car have no obvious way to "lock" the doors when you leave?

I am a _VERY_ happy Tesla owner as I said. There is still a lot to them that I
think might be a bit much to throw on someone for a 1 day rental.

------
spodek
> _the Elon Musk-founded firm_

Musk didn't found Tesla. From Wikipedia
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Tesla,_Inc](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Tesla,_Inc).

> Tesla was incorporated on July 1, 2003 by Martin Eberhard and Marc
> Tarpenning.

and that they, with a third employee,

> connected with Elon Musk, who contributed US$6.5 million of the initial
> (Series A) US$7.5 million round of investment in February 2004

~~~
AgloeDreams
Technically speaking his investment came with a retroactive co-founder status
according to the company. But yeah no he wasn't there in the beginning.

~~~
TekMol
"Retroactive co-founder" \- I wonder if that approach would work in other
areas too. Like, how much would it cost to buy the status of an "Original
member of the Beatles"?

~~~
filmgirlcw
Ask Ringo?

Like, Pete Best was replaced by Ringo b/c George Martin thought he wasn’t good
enough in the initial recording sessions with the band.

Pete Best can claim to be an early member but that doesn’t take away from the
fact that Ringo was there from the beginning. The analogy works pretty well
with Musk here.

Now, if you’re talking a Destiny’s Child situation where two of the early
members were replaced in music videos — for songs they performed on and a
record with their faces on the cover, you’d be correct. Michelle Williams can
never claim to be an “original” member of the band, but she was part of the
band from the time it started to take off, even if she didn’t get to accept a
Grammy for the second album with her two band mates (who had to awkwardly go
on stage with the girls they replaced).

~~~
TylerE
> but that doesn’t take away from the fact that Ringo was there from the
> beginning

That's a rather curious bit of revisionist history. They played hundreds of
live shows and made several released recordings before they hired Ringo - and
that's not even counting the Quarrymen/Johnny and the Moondogs days which
represent another 2 years before that.

------
A4ET8a8uTh0
This is one of the more damning articles for me. It includes nuggets I used to
say as joke about what would happen if MS made a car including:

“I have tried a reset but the glove compartment will not open after pressing
the button…any ideas?” One response asked if the car was in Valet mode. When
told it wasn’t, they followed with: “ok. That’s the ‘normal’ cause of random
glove locking. Try putting it on and turning it off?”

The fact that it is normal is amazing to me.

I love what Tesla did to the industry in terms of advancing battery tech to
force other players to move, but talk about Stockholm syndrome.

~~~
dredds
Some might consider it a feature if the glove box needs some known-only-to-
the-owner quirk to open as basic security, at least prior to having
voice/phone activation as an option. As i understood it, the valet mode is an
early preparation for autopilot ride-hailing activity while the owner is
working, otherwise known as robo-taxi mode, in order to keep the compartment
locked in non-privileged cases. Can any owners confirm this?

~~~
aidenn0
Valet mode is a common feature on luxury cars; prior to the fancy infotainment
stuff, it was a valet key that wouldn't unlock the glovebox or trunk, but
would drive the car.

------
tidwall
I traded in my Tesla Model S last December due to its degrading reliability. I
ran into numerous issues towards the end such as:

\- The touchscreen bubbling and tearing away due to "delamination". \- Door
handles "not presenting". \- The radiator breaking and dumping all its fluid
on the garage floor. \- The fast wall charger overheating. It got so hot I
often needed to use my shirt as a buffer between my hand and charger handle. I
was told it was normal behavior for summer time.

Then there were driving issues such as autopilot glitching out and steering
out of the lane. It got frequent enough that I had just stopped using that
feature altogether. Then there was the time when I was on the I-10 going 75
mph in the HOV lane and the car beeped a warning and quickly slowed down to 15
mph. I had to put on my hazards and weave through rush hour traffic to get off
the freeway and park the car. I got out of the car and back in, rebooted the
computer and it started worked normally. Rebooting seemed to fix various
things.

This isn't to say that my entire Tesla experience was entirely bad. I use to
be a big fanboy, and in fact this was my second Tesla Model S, my first being
a 2013 P85+. But sadly that era has passed I don't see myself ever buying a
Tesla again.

~~~
enachb
Same anecdotal evidence on my end (S85). Despite the fact that it's technology
(less moving parts) could make it the most reliable car, it ended up being the
least reliable. Usually one service appointment fixed 3 things and broke 2
other things in the process. Wait time for an appointment was 3 weeks. I was
done after 3 years and 40k Miles. Life is too short.

------
frei
>The J.D. Power US Initial Quality Study, which gauges problems encountered in
the first three months of ownership.

A very questionable definition of "reliability".

~~~
chadash
I don't doubt that Tesla's are less reliable by other definitions, but I agree
that this isn't a great measure.

Tesla's have lots of new and untested technology. That's their appeal. If
toyota wanted to be less conservative and start using blazing new technologies
in their cars, I'm sure we'd see the same issues there.

Teslas are notorious for software bugs that eventually get fixed. What i'm
more interested in is whether Teslas end up lasting a long time. Electric
motors are a lot simpler and so in a sense, I suspect they have the potential
to last for more years with fewer issues.

~~~
jonathankoren
> Tesla's have lots of new and untested technology. That's their appeal.

This saw gets trotted out whenever Tesla gets dinged for reliability. So let’s
dig into it. What untested technologies are Tesla deploying and how does the
affect reliability?

Well let’s review. The Model 3’s initial problems were metal panels not being
installed correctly. A technology that has been successfully deployed on
automobiles for over a century.

Now gaps are fixed, but they shouldn’t have been a problem _at all_. From what
I understand the problem was caused by trying to have robots do final assembly
and just lax quality controls, problems “legacy” manufacturers had solved
decades ago.

Tesla’s iconic touch screens are delaminating [0] because Elon ordered screens
to be installed that aren’t up to automotive grade standards. This is another
unforced error.

And we haven’t even touched on the problems with the actual advanced
technology, autopilot, which is once again oversold and underdelivers.

[0] [https://www.thedrive.com/tech/27989/teslas-screen-saga-
shows...](https://www.thedrive.com/tech/27989/teslas-screen-saga-shows-why-
automotive-grade-matters)

~~~
rootusrootus
> Now gaps are fixed

Not really. They've improved on the 3, but people still routinely get some
really wild tolerances on current Model 3s. And the Y has had an absolutely
awful beginning of production, facing many of the same build quality problems
that early Model 3s had.

Tesla is relying too much on buyer enthusiasm. As they expand into the
mainstream, they need to avoid building a strong reputation of poor quality
that will be really hard to shake.

~~~
jonathankoren
I wouldn’t buy a Tesla. I don’t like the interiors, and like you said they've
burned their reputation with me.

I was skeptical of how wide spread the the panel problems were with the 3’s
initial rollout, until I examined the 3s in the parking lot at work. Every car
was bad, including one that was a shockigly horrible.

------
asperous
Here's another source (consumer reports) that backs up the idea that Teslas
are on the less reliable end:

[https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-makes-big-leap-
consume...](https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-makes-big-leap-consumer-
reports-car-brand-survey-ranking-2020-2)

My thoughts are that Tesla is a newer company, they are trying things that
others aren't, and third, reliability never seemed to be a top goal for them.

~~~
DubiousPusher
I think it's more that reliability only really comes with maturity as a car
company. In the same way that the reliability of a code base increases with
maturity. A car is like a code base in that no one person ever fully
understands the entire thing.

~~~
tomohawk
I've seen plenty of code bases become less reliable over time. I once took
over a project that had been going on for 10+ years. Reliability was terrible.
The first thing I did was stop all changes, and only allow critical blockers
to be fixed. That eventually made it stable enough to be useful.

Reliability takes more that time. It takes competence and attention to detail.

~~~
dingaling
Mature does not imply old; it means feature-stable, proven and understood.

An example I know, Canon's pro-level cameras are mature on the day that they
go on sale to the public because they have been tested around the world for a
year or more to verify and debug the design. That's part of their appeal,
users know that they're putting $8000 into a mature camera that will get the
job done, though with fewer features and baubles than a Sony.

------
SpookyBits
Everytime Tesla is mentioned here the deluge of hate is overwhelming. I
genuinely don't understand it. Here comes a company that is actually doing
something fundamentally transformative and good for the planet and its
inhabitants instead just another in the countless line of garbage apps that at
best are a solution looking for a problem and at worst actively contributing
to the destruction of our species (Facebook). Seperate the man from the
accomplishments.

~~~
fataliss
I will not argue that Tesla is doing things differently. I have one gripe with
the absolute truth suggested by "good for the planet and its inhabitants" that
so many EV manufacturers ride on. Are electric cars good for the planet? Nope.
Are they less bad than gas cars? Maybe. It's like saying that Diet coke is
good for you because it replaces normal coke that is bad for you. That's an
erroneous and arguably dangerous dichotomy. Sorry if I'm being facetious but
that kind of marketing bothers me and I believe is damaging (to the
environment in this case) by making us more inclined to settle for non optimal
solutions.

~~~
SpookyBits
I understand your reasoning but this is a perfect example of the saying "Never
let the perfect be the enemy of the good". I agree that there are better
solutions in terms of environmental cost for mobility but given the
constraints of human behavior and urgent need for massive immediate reduction
of carbon emissions, EV's are currently our best shot.

~~~
xkjkls
Why? Why isn't more public transit, which in ever study is massively more
greenhouse gas efficient than electric cars and is also already an existing
and proven technology a better option?

Why aren't plugin hybrids a better option? Battery electric vehicles require
massive emissions in assembling a Li+ battery of that size. Given that most
trips for people are short distances that wouldn't end up using the fuel tank
of a plugin hybrid, why is encouraging their adoption not a better solution.

There seems to be a belief that BEVs are the obvious and accepted solution to
the climate crisis that I don't think meets muster.

------
hrolfgar
It seems odd that Dodge has the top score here, with Toyota and Honda
significantly below the industry average. This runs counter to my personal
experience and general perceptions. I wonder if historically unreliable brands
like Dodge are becoming more reliable than Japanese brands, or if this is
related to how this survey is conducted?

~~~
DubiousPusher
These surveys are a bit suspect. They tend to fluctuate a lot from year to
year which makes little sense because car companies very minorly change their
cars from one procution year to another. Major changes to design and
construction only come every 5-10 years when a few models are often
reintroduced together. Toyota ever ranking below any U.S. brand is almost
hilarious but it will probably change on next year's survey. You can use these
surveys to get a general idea of who is building more unbreakable cars by
looking at them across multiple years.

Tesla though consistently ranks low on these kind of surveys. It's not really
a surprise as small design or manufacturing issues take years to work out.
There's a reason car companies that are very conservative with change like
Toyota often top this list and companies that are pushing new technology into
their cars frequently like BMW do not as well.

As an example, around 2000 BMW was one of the first companies to introduce
variable valve timing on its whole line of cars. It was new and unsurprisingly
VANOS seal failures soon became a frequent issue on higher milage cars.
Basically every car has variable valve timing now and it's usually not an
issue.

Edit: I use the term unbreakable instead of reliable because the kinds of
issues that this survey tracks include things that aren't really about
reliability in the traditional sense we think of it. If a company introcudes a
particularly flimsy door handle and people are breaking them it comes up in
this survey just as much as check engine lights. Minivans for example get
docked a lot in surveys like this even though they are often well built
because kids are hell on car interiors.

------
jsmith12673
This survey is incredibly suspect ... as the author themself states, there's
an inherent bias for non-american brands.

I find it surprising the FCA and GM cars are topping the list, while being
notoriously unreliable in the car community.

Also worth noting that both Toyota and Ford have been ranked as worse than
industry average.

I'm not saying that Tesla(s) don't have quality issues, but this survey seems
pretty meaningless.

~~~
kogus
It sounds like you are saying that this survey is meaningless because it
disagrees with your anecdotal experience. If the survey is conducted in a
rigorous and valid way, then it's the perception, not the study, that needs to
be suspect. Does J.D. publish their methodology and data? The best I could
find was this PDF:
[https://www.jdpower.com/sites/default/files/file/2020-06/202...](https://www.jdpower.com/sites/default/files/file/2020-06/2020070%20U.S.%20IQS.pdf).

~~~
abfan1127
review consumer reports reviews of FCA and GM cars. They are crap. JD Power
looks at the first 3 months. That's before the first oil change! The reality
is that high-reliability cars require no mechanical repairs in the first 100k
miles.

anecdotal evidence: 1989 Honda Civic only needed a/c compressor from 100-180k
miles. 1991 Honda Civic only needed a/c compressor from 98-140k miles. 2007
Toyota Camry required a CV joint and a sun visor in the first 100k miles. It
needed a Power steering hose at 120k. 2010 Honda Pilot required a Fuel Tank
Vacuum Valve in the first 100k miles, and a a/c compressor, power steering
pump and rack at 190k. 2012 Chevy Sonic needed a new turbo in first 50k miles.
2003 Chevy Cavalier went through alternators like underpants, and would quit
running if you turned off the a/c while stopped.

I won't by GM or FCA vehicles with the exception of Dodge RAM diesels. I do
maintenance myself and always use OEM parts when I sub work out.

~~~
kogus
I don't think it's as black-and-white as you suggest. This link seems to
support the narrative that FCA has greatly improved, and it also agrees that
Subaru and BMW, in spite of their high quality stereotype, statistically
suffer from more than their fair share of issues:
[https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-
satisf...](https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-
satisfaction/who-makes-the-most-reliable-cars/)

Anecdotal evidence is fun, but it's useless for making any kind of informed
decision. We happen to have a 2008 Toyota Sienna. The general consensus for
that vehicle is that its practically bulletproof. But we've had chronic issues
with it since 50,000 miles. AC went out, plastic seals falling off, engine
knocking, and many other issues. But I wouldn't hesitate to consider a Toyota
when we replace it, because I know our experience has been an outlier.

~~~
abfan1127
when has BMW had a high quality sterotype? Fancy pants? sure. but Audi/BMW/MB
all suffer from reliability issues, with BMW leading the pack.

Completely agree about anecdotal evidence.

------
mcguire
" _...as the Elon Musk-founded firm reportedly wouldn’t allow its customers to
be surveyed in 15 of America’s 50 states..._ "

Sigh. This again? Tesla has joined the list of producers of quality products
like Oracle?

~~~
jedieaston
In the other thread, this was phrased as Tesla not allowing those states to
release the information of people who bought a car to third-parties because
privacy. I'm sure if you wanted to take the survey in one of those states you
can just reach out to JD Power yourself, they can't scrape your information
though.

~~~
mcguire
How does Tesla "not allowing those states to release the information of people
who bought a car to third-parties"? That's purely between you, the state motor
vehicle registration office, and the state's regulations, right?

~~~
xkjkls
Other automakers release this information.

------
rashkov
Previously discussed here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23637920](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23637920)

------
georgeecollins
I agree with others that the survey is a bit suspect, but I do believe it is
possible that Dodges don't have a lot of problems. Look at the cars they sell!
They haven't changed their cars much in at least ten years. That is not a
knock on them, Americans like Chargers and Challengers. If you are making the
same car for ten years or more I hope you get very good at it.

~~~
jonathankoren
The Tesla S was introduced eight years ago.

~~~
georgeecollins
That is a long time, but the Charger (and the Challenger is essentially a two
door Charger) was introduced 14 years ago. More to the point, the Tesla S was
revolutionary in 2012, the Charger was old fashioned in 2012.

------
SkyPuncher
I saw that exact chart discussed elsewhere. The general trend I concluded was
this is a measure of how picky a brand's customers are. Since "problems" is
left undefined these could be anything from "I don't like this button" to "the
engine randomly stops running".

Audi and Volkswagen; Chevy, GMC, and Cadillac; Ford and Lincoln, etc are
essentially the same vehicles. I suspect the more luxury you go, the higher
the expectations you have for your vehicle. The interesting exception is Lexus
and Toyota.

Anecdotally, I'm surprised to see Subaru with such high defects. I know a lot
of friends with Subaru's and have only heard one bad thing - the seat springs
wore out after several years of daily driving.

------
kogus
It would be really interesting to take brands that have improved dramatically
over the years, and do a thorough analysis of what internal processes they
changed to achieve that result. You know that there are QA folks within each
company doing that kind of analysis.

After doing that analysis, it would then be a fun project to try to apply
those manufacturing or design process changes to software development.

I suppose in such a competitive and proprietary industry, such transparency is
not likely.

------
aeternum
The survey is meaningless if they do not disclose the questions.

~~~
giarc
You could also argue that Tesla is misleading since it won't allow customers
in 15 states to fill out surveys.

~~~
ardy42
> You could also argue that Tesla is misleading since it won't allow customers
> in 15 states to fill out surveys.

What? Can you go into more detail?

~~~
giarc
In the article it says only customers from 35 states could fill out the survey
since Tesla blocks customers in 15 states. So the data on Tesla isn't
representative of the 50 states.

------
blackrock
One thing that worries me about Tesla, is all the electronics.

Modern consumer grade electronics, are not known for lasting very long. And by
long, I mean on the scale of 20 to 30 years.

Often, circuit boards deteriorate. Either the solder goes bad, or some
resistor, or what not fails.

This is one reason why I prefer old style appliances, with minimal
electronics. And I refuse to buy a smart refrigerator, because when that
circuit board goes bad, then your refrigerator is now a huge paperweight.

With an expensive Tesla Model 3, that can cost upwards of $50,000 USD, then
the risk of an expensive paperweight here, is very real. And Elon is not in
the business of repairing old Tesla cars, since it does nothing to boost his
stock price.

And with all critical instrumentation now being virtual, and displayed to you
on the center monitor, then, you now have a very high risk of cascading
failures.

A better design, would have been to keep separate, the critical instruments
needed to drive the vehicle, like the speedometer, battery charge meter, etc.,
from the infotainment system used to provide auxiliary support, like the GPS
mapping, music, video, internet, browser, Netflix, etc. And especially the
AutoPilot program, should definitely be kept separate.

Or maybe, the people who can easily afford to spend $50k to $80k on an
experimental car, doesn’t concern themselves with such frivolous things. And
they buy themselves a new car every 5 years, so to them, everything I
mentioned above is all irrelevant.

And a lot of people who bought the $80k Model S, did so just to drive in the
car pool lane. Once that privilege is revoked, then, its importance will
diminish.

------
tomxor
Since the criteria isn't disclosed I will just have to assume tesla have the
least reliable cup holders.

------
bstockton
I think this is a bit misleading. The metric is "problems" per 100 cars. That
could mean the car's transmission gave out or it could mean there is a
software bug or paint issue that is causing the driver problems. In the case
of Tesla it could be the case a lot of problems are due to software bugs that
can be corrected over the air seamlessly for free. I think classifying each
problem into categories with associated weights would help to make the metric
more meaningful

~~~
mola
Why? Because we're used to software bugs?

~~~
bstockton
What? Just saying a minor software bug (possibly Spotify not integrating
correctly) is not the same as a transmission or brake failure. Also, in
Tesla's case the minor bugs can be fixed relatively quickly and for free. I
don't know what you're talking about being used to software bugs.

------
csours
JD Power has a number of surveys and it is important to understand the context
for each.

IQS is the Initial Quality Survey, and it is basically "What defects did new
owners notice". Historically, vehicle models with more years of production
since model change/update have done better on the IQS Survey, which is why
some unexpected cars score higher. Additionally, simpler cars have fewer
things to go wrong.

Disclaimer: I work for General Motors, this post consists solely of my
opinions.

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lazyjones
Necessary info because poor media are summarizing this incorrectly as
"reliability":

> _Tesla’s issues are primarily with production and things such as paint
> imperfections and poor fit of body panels, according to J.D. Power_

[https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/24/tesla-lags-auto-industry-
in-...](https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/24/tesla-lags-auto-industry-in-quality-
finds-new-jd-power-study.html)

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dutch3000
Tesla cars haven’t been around long enough in a quantity to be able to even
determine long term reliability. Short term reliability is obviously a joke
assessment. My bet is as time carries on Tesla cars will rank low. No reason
other than they are a new comer and you learn and improve reliability through
real world experience like Honda. I would never buy a Tesla.

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AngryData
Ive hear the wheel bearings are garbage because they use special ceramic ball
bearings, rather than roller or spindle bearings which are like a bajillion
times better at handling wheel loads and shocks. Maybe they have changed it in
newer versions but I havent heard anything about it since.

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eruci
I own a model 3. It is a great car, far ahead of the competition. I've had
more issues with it than i did with my previous car (honda accord). Eg,
blackscreen - many times, and once an unintended acceleration.

~~~
p_j_w
Great car with unintended acceleration?

~~~
eruci
That only happened once.

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bitxbit
Manufacturing quality is hard. Tesla, as a SV company, isn’t really interested
in manufacturing it seems. Think they could really benefit from merging with
Toyota especially at this valuation.

~~~
throwaway0a5e
>Think they could really benefit from merging with Toyota especially at this
valuation.

Merging them would create a mass of online fanboys so dense that it creates an
automotive black hole. It will be impossible for discussion of any other brand
to build up enough speed to exit the fanboy-well.

Joking aside, brands that start with T and end with A seem to have a
disproportionate number of very loud online fanboys. I can understand why they
have the following they do but it doesn't make them any less insufferable.

~~~
rootusrootus
> Merging them would create a mass of online fanboys so dense that it creates
> an automotive black hole

Ha! It might not be as bad as you think, there are a lot of Model 3 owners who
used to own a Prius, so there's already a lot of commonality there.

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pengaru
> the Elon Musk-founded firm reportedly wouldn’t allow its customers to be
> surveyed in 15 of America’s 50 states

If this is true, I don't care how reliable Tesla's are, I already know enough
to never be a customer.

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sim_card_map
I thought Mahk made it clear JD Power is garbage

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ForrestN
Warning: anecdote.

My boomer parents have a Tesla and complain constantly about its reliability.
However, often this is a consequence of their own disinclination to the more
"techy" interfaces that Tesla favors. There are several cases where what they
see as the car's failures might be seen, by Tesla say, as user error.

There's a good lesson about design and demographics there. If you're selling
expensive cars in the United States, consider building interfaces that are
generationally appropriate to the only generation that has much disposable
income in the U.S.

~~~
jacquesm
> There are several cases where what they see as the car's failures might be
> seen, by Tesla say, as user error.

That includes fatalities at Tesla so this should be no surprise.

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taf2
2014 I got my tesla. I’ve had one issue and one recall... equivalent expensive
luxury cars range rover,bmw, Benz of the past... by 2-3 year mark all are
thousands in maintenance monthly. Tesla for me at least has been a game
changer. Cost aside I don’t think about my car much except for the occasional
thread like this...

~~~
jeffbee
I don't doubt that your Benz is expensive to maintain but I have a feeling
that thousands per month in year 3 is somewhat exaggerated. Edmunds estimates
the 5-year maintenance cost of the most expensive Benz I can think of (the E63
AMG) at less than $9000, which is maybe a lot but that's $150/month.

