

The Portuguese Experiment: Did Drug Decriminalization Work? - EGF
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html?xid=rss-topstories

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russell
This is a very encouraging report. In Portugal there was a significant drop in
drug usage, hospitalization, and deaths after decriminalization. The savings
in enforcement paid for improved treatment. Selling drugs was not
decriminalized.

The situation here in CA is insane. Medical use of marijuana is legal, but the
feds raid the shops. We spend billions turning minor drug dealers and users
into prisoners and billions more building new prisons. The prison guards union
is one of the most powerful lobbying groups in the state. I remember reading
around the turn of the century that nationally 40% of black males, teens to
early 20's, were on parole, in jail, or awaiting trial. Insane.

It seems that decriminalization reduces the attractiveness of drugs. I
speculate that it reduces peer pressure, hard sell drug dealers, and the
profitability of drug sales.

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randomtask
The title is wrong. Portugal hasn't legalised drugs, but rather decriminalised
possession for personal use. In effect they have the same laws, but whereas
users could be sent to prison before they will now instead be assessed and
treated by the state. Proper legalisation would remove all consequences of
drug use, rather than just reducing penalties. To argue that this proves any
arguments for or against legalisation is wrong in my opinion.

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EGF
You are right an upon further review I wanted to change the title. What would
be a better representation of a summary without getting too long? "Effects of
Portugals changes to drug possession punishment?" I keep getting too jumbled,
and would like to properly rename if you can help.

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randomtask
How about "Effect of decriminalizing drugs in Portugal - stats included"?

Don't take my comment personally. The title Time gave the article is
misleading too especially since they later on quote someone who calls it
decriminalization.

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kyro
Uh, so, I usually really hate comments about how an article isn't related to
HN, but with this submission and the one about China on the front page, I felt
like I needed to write one too.

I sort of feel like I'm looking at the front page of CNN or the NYT when I see
stories about national legalization of drugs and the problems in a nation's
infrastructure.

I think some of us have taken the guideline of 'stories that are interesting
to hackers' to a bit of an extreme. It's almost become 'ok, some hackers take
drugs, this story is about drugs, it should be interesting.' I still think
that stories submitted should have a basic level of hackishness to them. As
someone who'd consider himself a non-hacker, I find more hack related stories
to be much more interesting than any of these Time/etc. articles, and I come
here to read them because I wouldn't have been able to find them elsewhere,
whereas these globally related articles are relatively easy to come by.

So, flag. And the other one.

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phugoid
I don't mind a _handful_ of non-tech articles.

I'm more interested in the comments: what do smart tech people think about
this or that? Then I add my own comment, and the smart bit gets cleared. Ah
well.

In any case, I assume the point-based algorithm is sufficient for moderating
which articles should reach the front page.... Just my two cents' worth.

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swombat
We've really had enough marijuana threads already. And past experience has
shown that they lead to no useful discussion whatsoever.

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miguelpais
Wow, I didn't know the Netherlands had never really legalized cannabis...

Also, I'm from Portugal, and although I knew being caught using some drugs
would take no action from the police, I didn't know we were that liberal...

Anyway, whoever is caught selling goes to jail...

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jvdh
The situation in the Netherlands is a little more complicated than the article
leads you to believe.

It is legal to possess cannabis, it is also legal to grow it at home, as long
as it is for personal use.

What they say about not enforcing the laws against the shops is partly true.
The shops are allowed to have a very small amount in stock. However, the legal
amount is ridiculously small, and less than what most stores sell in a day.
The shops solve this by having regular drops during the day.

I'm not completely sure, but I believe that the warehouses where the shops get
their drops from are legally allowed. And I'm also not completely sure about
the legallity of importing cannabis from other countries, although it does
happen a lot.

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wheels
False. Possession is illegal in the Netherlands. The Netherlands is a
signatory to international treaties which it would have to back out of to
formally legalize certain drugs.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_the_Netherlands#...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_the_Netherlands#Non-
enforcement)

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jvdh
ah right, there is no cop that will arrest you for it, nor is there a judge
that will sentence you if you do get arrested.

sorry that I thought it was legal, what was I thinking ;-)

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wheels
There are all sorts of things that you won't get arrested for that aren't
legal.

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krschultz
The big red flag is the sponsor - the CATO institute is hardcore pro-
legalization. I love the findings as much as the next libertarian but the
report would be more persuasive if it came from a neutral commission.

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1gor
Are you as well doubting Amnesty International findings simply because they
are anti-torture? What is wrong with people having convictions and spending
money to find facts that support these convictions?

I find the trend towards quick character assassination (rather than looking at
the facts) quite annoying. We see it in climate debate, for example, way too
often.

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philwelch
"What is wrong with people having convictions and spending money to find facts
that support these convictions?"

That's rationalization instead of rationality. Rationality dictates
discovering the facts BEFORE you reach the conclusions.

~~~
rms
They're still actual facts that other people can use to reach their own
conclusions.

~~~
philwelch
Cleverly omitted are other actual facts that other people can use to reach
conclusions other than your own.

Maybe an adversarial method would be a better way of addressing these issues
in practice, but only when we're responsible enough to read both sides.

Also, it's intellectually dishonest to pick your conclusions first and find
the facts later. Even if CATO finds good facts (I'm sure they do), there is
most definitely something "wrong with" them.

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MaysonL
Link to the Cato Institute, where you can download the report they sponsored:
<http://cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=10080>

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catzaa
Singapore also have an excelent system to minimize drug use.

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donaq
Capital punishment for possession, you mean? I think that's a little extreme,
even though I am Singaporean.

