
Efforts to change the Japanese culture of extreme work weeks - pseudolus
https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200114-how-the-japanese-are-putting-an-end-to-death-from-overwork
======
vorpalhex
I think one of the easiest wins here would be what some US startups with
unlimited leave were practicing: a required minimum of days off.

Usually there were two check ins and if you didn't burn a minimum of leave by
then, your manager would take your work laptop and send you home on paid leave
until you met it.

Once leave becomes mandatory.. you can't judge people for taking it. Obviously
the goal is for them to want to use the leave (and plan what they want to do
with it) instead of forcing them to take it, but it's a leveling action.

~~~
president
> I think one of the easiest wins here would be what some US startups with
> unlimited leave were practicing: a required minimum of days off.

Any examples of companies that are doing this? I haven't heard of many, at
least in the SF Bay Area.

~~~
lukego
This reminds me of being an employee in Stockholm. You get scolded if you
haven't booked thirty days of vacation into the calendar. Someone comes to
your desk and makes you pick the dates.

You come back with a lot of energy too :-)

~~~
johnchristopher
Happened to me last week. Had to pick 23 days between now and 13th of April.

I picked at random, the `manager` and I both know I'll be working at home
anyway.

~~~
gsk22
I honestly do not understand this mentality. You're given 23 paid days off,
why would you donate that time back to your employer?

~~~
sfRattan
So that the employer will see him more favorably than the other employees at
the same level when making decisions in which all other things are equal.

From the candor of GP's comment, I would venture to guess that both he and the
manager are type-A personalities who want to be at work all the time. My dad
was and is like that. He progressed much further in his career than he would
have otherwise and our family was none-the-worse for it. Not everyone is like
that, but I don't see it as incomprehensible (or even a problem).

Although I'm not the same as my dad, I've long felt an individualist
stubbornness that leads me to a similar conclusions. When I was a kid, we had
a birthday party at a bowling alley and the attendants put the bumpers[1] up
in our alley and wouldn't take them down. I was so incensed that I instead
made a game of trying to whack the bowling ball hard enough against the
bumpers to bounce over them. I was elated when I got one all the way into the
next alley.

My gut reacts to the idea of "mandatory days off" in an intuitively similar
way, even though I probably wouldn't be incensed about it the way I was about
the bumpers in the bowling alley as a child. I'm probably on the extreme end
of a cultural and value difference between Americans and Europeans.

[1]: [https://cdn.mykidlist.com/wp-
content/uploads/2017/04/0211010...](https://cdn.mykidlist.com/wp-
content/uploads/2017/04/02110106/kid-friendly-bowling-alleys.png)

~~~
johnchristopher
> So that the employer will see him more favorably than the other employees at
> the same level when making decisions in which all other things are equal.

There's a bit of that. The main reason though is that I am way out of touch
and unable to separate work/whatever life for a bunch of different reasons.
Let's say I am a mess right now and not caring much about losing vacation.

> From the candor of GP's comment, I would venture to guess that both he and
> the manager are type-A personalities who want to be at work all the time. My
> dad was and is like that. He progressed much further in his career than he
> would have otherwise and our family was none-the-worse for it. Not everyone
> is like that, but I don't see it as incomprehensible (or even a problem).

Not really, maybe. I am a teamplayer and a people pleaser but I have some type
A tendencies (types only tell a part of the story anyway). I have nothing to
show for that though (not a top leet coder, not a top lead manager, etc. I am
good, reliable but I am not shining).

I think if I was more "type A" I would not let such things happen.

> [1]: [https://cdn.mykidlist.com/wp-
> content/uploads/2017/04/0211010...](https://cdn.mykidlist.com/wp-
> content/uploads/2017/04/0211010..).

How did you do that :D

------
aeyes
This law change is a first step but I don't see why you can't pass a law which
forces companies to make a worker take the full minimum annual leave.

When I worked in Germany the company I worked at did that. You had until the
end of the first quarter of the next year to use all of your vacation days. If
you still had vacation left after this date, they forced you to take them
until the end of the second quarter - this was frowned upon and managers made
sure it wouldn't happen.

I'm not sure if this is a law or just something the company did but the
problem here isn't peer pressure. It seems to be part of the business model of
Japanese companies because implementing and enforcing such a policy is easy.

~~~
blackearl
As strange as it may sound, passing that law might be really difficult. The
article mentions "In September, Shinjiro Koizumi, Japan’s environment
minister, faced widespread opposition and even calls to resign over his plans
to take paternity leave after his wife gives birth."

Things are changing in Japan, but progress appears to be moving at a glacial
pace.

~~~
Hamuko
Ironically enough, Japan has one of the most generous paternity leaves in the
entire world. It's just that no one* uses it.

[https://qz.com/1084591/despite-japans-generous-paternity-
lea...](https://qz.com/1084591/despite-japans-generous-paternity-leave-
only-2-3-of-men-take-it-because-they-think-their-peers-would-disapprove/)

------
pixelcort
One additional challenge that will need to be addressed in Japan is unreported
overtime (サービス残業). Often my friends, upon preparing for a day off, will work
about 8 hours of overtime beforehand and not report it on the time and
attendance systems at their companies. From my understanding, unreported
overtime is not always reflected in most statistics; even when self reporting
I bet many people forget all the unreported overtime they do. Another example
is rounding down: work 2.5 hours of overtime but only report 2.

I’m not sure what the solution is, but one idea is to lock out work laptops
after a time limit, or at least record overtime when a work laptop is being
used.

Until we can begin to accurately track and measure the unreported overtime, we
won’t be able to improve it.

Finally, I think working in multicultural teams helps. When you see your peers
have diverse beliefs and actions about work and life, you may be more willing
to take more time off, and more accurately report the overtime you do take.

------
michaelbuckbee
I'm always curious to what extent work hours correlate with productivity. I
think it was patio11 who shared his story of a salaryman co-worker fixing his
bike in his cubicle on a Saturday he was "working" in the office.

And while I haven't seen first-hand the Japanese style overwork, I have seen
Silicon Valley startup "overwork" up close and have similar concerns. My pet
theory is that in early-stage startups it's so unclear what is actually
valuable and productive work that the overwork becomes a proxy for
productivity.

~~~
riantogo
The issue is that most startups are in survival mode and hence has a natural
pressure from that. The trick is to manage expectation at IC level. Knowing
that there is this natural pressure commit to only what you can deliver in
15hrs/week. Then work "hard" and overdeliver equivalent of 30hrs/week. Spend
10hrs on above the weed activity (evaluate, measure, communicate, course
correct etc.). Be religious about this template.

------
acd
Both Japan and US/Vacation should have more yearly vacation at least 4-5
weeks. I think it would be very beneficial to general mental health. Also to
have less exposure to advertisement which recently has also shown to have a
negative effect on health - [https://hbr.org/2020/01/advertising-makes-us-
unhappy](https://hbr.org/2020/01/advertising-makes-us-unhappy).

It used to be in Japan that you would not leave the office before your manager
left whatever time that was.

~~~
flanbiscuit
> It used to be in Japan that you would not leave the office before your
> manager left whatever time that was.

"used to be"? has this changed? I thought this was still the case in the older
salary-men type companies.

~~~
james_s_tayler
My sister-in-law works in a tiny company doing graphic design. It's the same
thing. Can't leave until the boss does.

She recently came to visit us in my home country for Christmas whereupon I
learned that she has a 2 hour commute each way on purpose because of this. I
asked her isn't commuting 4 hours a day just awful, why don't you live closer
to work? And she replied that if she lived closer to work she would simply be
at work longer and having a long commute means 4 hours a day she can spend not
doing work stuff but doing things like listening to music and playing games on
her phone.

------
james_s_tayler
"When asked about colleagues’ reactions to taking time off, he adds: They
would react negatively. They will not say anything directly to that person but
they will speak ill of that person behind their back"

This nails it. That pang of guilt and horror knowing you'll be reacted to in
such a seemingly viscous way just stops you dead in your tracks.

I think the silly thing is it's always framed as "maintaining the group
harmony" but it's more like maintaining the group misery.

Why do the co-workers react the way they do? It's such a bitter way to react.
"I can't take time off because you'd be mad at me for doing so, because it
would put you out, yet you're ok with taking time off and putting me out? What
kind of bullshit is that? I'm definitely very mad at you!".

So the idea is that you don't want to do anything that would make anyone mad
at you because "that's not what Japanese do".

It's just so circular.

~~~
jaequery
I think it’s much simpler than that. They are rewarded to stay late by you
keeping a job. The guy who leaves early will be the first to get let go. That
is the real problem.

------
twblalock
I keep hearing that Japanese workers work very long hours, but every time I've
been in Tokyo the rush hour on the trains is about when I'd expect it to be --
between about 5 and 7 pm. I don't see how that would be the case if everyone
was still at work.

~~~
pixelcort
There’s another rush hour between 9 and 11 pm.

Another way to confirm this is to compare with the morning rush hour. Way more
crowded as most people start work at around the same time (most companies have
a starting time of 9 or 10 am).

~~~
linguae
I can confirm. I used to live in Kawasaki in 2010 and I regularly visit Japan
from California for vacation and business. The morning rush hour is relatively
short (roughly 7am to past 9am) but intensely congested due to the fact that
most companies start work around the same time, and lateness is verboten.
However, the evening commute is not as sharply congested, although it can
still be standing room-only on the trains. The evening commute begins as early
as 5pm but could last until the last train, typically around midnight. This is
not only due to people working overtime, but also due to coworkers and
colleagues going out at night for drinking and other activities. This was a
regular occurrence for my colleagues and me back when I was interning at a
Japanese company a decade ago in Kawasaki.

------
andrekandre
> “While Western society is individualistic and non-hierarchical, Japanese
> society is collectivist and hierarchical,” explains Hiroshi Ono, professor
> of human resources management at Hitotsubashi University, who specialises in
> Japan’s work culture.

i am not a researcher, but i dont think that’s the root cause, since

1\. there are many types of “western culture” and 2\. if it were a sign of
collectivist vs individualistic the the u.s should be fairly low on the list
but appears above japan! [1]

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time#OECD_ranking](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time#OECD_ranking)

——-

just my opinion from working in jp for more than 10 years, but the only thing
that will truly fix the overwork problem will be to officially change the
workweek to 4 days... they tried something like this with “premium friday” [2]
which went absolutely nowhere...

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premium_Friday](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premium_Friday)

------
archeantus
I feel very fortunate and grateful that I was able to send this Slack message
to my team on December 19:

“ @here I want to thank everyone for a great year. We’ve accomplished a ton,
and I think we need to stop and recognize it. My ask for everyone is to take
the week off next week. We have a few things we need to be on-call for, and
heaven knows we could use the time to write more tests, but I think it is
important to pause, rest, and reflect.”

Im so glad that this is totally cool in our company and our culture. I wish
this was the rule and not the exception.

~~~
jbay808
Your team might have appreciated more notice! Then maybe their SOs could have
coordinated spending time with them, childcare, etc.

~~~
archeantus
That’s a fair point. The reality is that they all could have taken the time
off individually anyway, this was just a small gesture to show my thanks for a
great year!

------
umvi
USA gets bashed a lot on employment front, but only because we are way more
transparent about our problems than Japan. Yes, the extreme work culture
causing karōshi is a big issue. However, Japan also has _serious_ workplace
discrimination issues that never get talked about.

For example, how many here have ever heard of Burakumin[1]? It's a taboo
subject to talk about in Japan, so it is rare you'll hear of it through
mainstream news.

Basically, in many places in southern Japan, when you apply for a job,
employers will look up your surname to see if your ancestors were burakumin
(held "impure" occupations in the feudal era like butcher, tanner, etc). If
so, they won't hire you.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burakumin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burakumin)

~~~
pretendscholar
Can you not change your surname?

~~~
czep
It's actually exceedingly difficult. The family registry, koseki, is steeped
in a thousand years of tradition. You can't simply walk into the nearest city
ward office and fill out a form.

There are also restrictions on the kinds of names you are allowed to choose,
if for example you are naturalizing. The list of allowed names clearly
distinguishes you and your family from "true" Japanese.

~~~
Aeolun
That seems a bit crazy? When I married I also had the option of taking my
wife’s (Japanese) name, so that would make me indistinguishable from a native.

------
bitxbit
There’s a lot of sitting around and doing nothing in East Asian office work
culture. It’s similar to investment banking where you are not necessarily
using your brain/energy but you are still at the office for insane hours
churning out 100 different versions of the handouts.

------
claudeganon
> “While Western society is individualistic and non-hierarchical, Japanese
> society is collectivist and hierarchical,” explains Hiroshi Ono, professor
> of human resources management at Hitotsubashi University, who specialises in
> Japan’s work culture. “Thus, many people refrain from taking holiday because
> their bosses do not take holiday, or they are afraid that it will disrupt
> the group harmony.”

Just FYI, this is complete pablum. While it’s true that Japanese society has a
collectivist bent, that this by default maps to some authoritarian business
culture, elides the political and ideological project of the right wing in
Japan.

Prior to the war and up into the 1970s, Japan was a hotbed of radical politics
and labor activism that roiled the country. Unions dominated many industries,
socialists and communists won major parliamentary victories, and Japanese
thinkers and activists were on the vanguard of many left wing movements.

This state of affairs was, however, completely unacceptable to the US. And so
they proceeded to massively subsidize right wing politicians, work with
organized crime to intimidate and disrupt unionized workers, and gather
intelligence against opposition to the LDP’s rule.

[https://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/09/world/cia-spent-
millions-...](https://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/09/world/cia-spent-millions-to-
support-japanese-right-in-50-s-and-60-s.html)

So if you want to understand why the country has devolved into this kind of
crushing exploitation and culture of suffering, you really need to begin with
the fact that the US rehabilitated a bunch of fascists, helped orchestrate
their rule over the postwar order, and crushed all meaningful challenge to
this state of affairs. There’s nothing inherent to the Japanese people that
makes any of this necessary.

~~~
paganel
Similar thing happened in Italy after WW2. There's a small wiki entry for it
[1] but for those curious I guess a quick google search will reveal lots of
related articles.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Italy#Cold_W...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Italy#Cold_War)

~~~
claudeganon
Yes, it was actually Europe-wide. Secret weapon caches were spread across
Europe so that right-wing paramilitaries could stage coups if leftists ever
took power:

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio)

------
yomly
I wonder if there is opportunity to set up a startup in Japan where you
actually treat your staff like real human beings and set the precedence of an
inclusive and sustainable culture from day 1

~~~
Aeolun
You would face an uphill battle against culture, and people might honestly be
uncomfortable working for you.

Maybe younger people?

------
kqr
Can someone explain something to me? I hear a lot about Japan's extreme work
culture; I've even heard of a workplace where your contributions were scored
-- but only negative (penalty) scores existed.

How can this come out of the same country as the Toyota production system, the
popularization of quality control, and the intense study of Deming?

------
duxup
I feel like I've seen articles like this for decades.

~~~
ahartmetz
...though what I hear is that they are really serious about it in Japan, and
Korea, too. And slowly the worked hours are decreasing. For sure it is slowed
down by the Keiretsus and the Jaebols almost having power of government.

------
wiggler00m
How would people react in the US if the Secretary of Energy took paternity
leave?

~~~
redisman
Great! Less damage those oil lobbyists can do.

------
tokyoHacker
Disclosure: work in japan

What I have realized talking to the native people here is that working late is
due to :

1\. Impress peers and managers 2\. Impress wife and her friends that you are
important to the company 3\. (For people with young kids) Not be a nuisance to
the sleeping schedule of kids by coming early 4\. Nothing much to do after
going home because of lack of intimacy with spouse/partner 5\. Actual work
requirements 6\. To earn overtime pay since basic pay is too low to cover all
the expenses.

People have different reasons at different points in time.

------
Razengan
After all, wouldn't it help a country's overall economy if more if its
citizens took holidays and vacations locally more often?

Japan has an amazing diversity of environments, biomes and subcultures. It's a
shame if their own people are usually too busy to enjoy much of that.

------
Aeolun
Note: Working in Japan

The entire company got a mail from HR last week asking people to please take
at least 5 days off every year.

My team is international, so we all had a good laugh, but it was a bit
disturbing to think enough of my colleagues take so little time off that it
prompts this email...

------
rs23296008n1
Two days off for the whole year?!

Let's remove the Japanese cultural aspect for the sake of argument. Its
relevant but lets keep it general.

You'd be amazed how much you can glean from even something as apparently
simple as staff leave entitlements.

Based on my experience in a previous type of role interacting with "less than
stellar" businesses, here's how I'd review that guys manager and company
performance:

That guy's manager is either incompetent or in a high stress environment
themselves from on-high. They don't know how to manage people. Likely running
all staff at overload. They are therefore underperforming with fatigue an
issue. Likely error rate is excessive, or worse, minor mistakes are being
covered up and are already on slow burn to becoming larger ones. Fear is a
factor in all decisions involving responsibility. CYA is overused.

Leadership is probably running the business poorly across multiple measures.
Untested or non-existent disaster contingency plans. Every person is either a
critical link or near one. Too much in each persons head because they are too
scared to share information. Proliferation of business silos. Entire groups
are isolated from each other. Pointless duplication of work or systems.
Managers increase headcount for power but then purge when expenses get
flagged.

Embezzlement or some other fraud is likely because no one is second guessing
the day-in-day-out work. The corrupt group are left to run continuously and
uninterrupted because no one honest takes the reins at regular intervals. No
rotation of staff at any particular point needed because no one really goes on
leave. Financial mismanagement at minimum is likely even if fraud is not
present.

Poor social inclusion/cohesion. Staff are isolated from their communities and
those links are shaky or broken. This is not good for anyone and the damage
will flow back in other ways. Low cohesive people later turn into messes of
their own and in turn result in increasing turnover overall or worse they stay
and lower performance of themselves or others. Bullying/mobbing are likely
present.

Since corporations are legal individuals, this one is a workaholic jerk that
doesn't play well with others and at extreme is headed for prison / bankruptcy
/ or both. Even if the corporation succeeds its still a failure since it had
to sacrifice so much to get there it barely got there at all. Dying at the
summit is not success when the real success is returning to what matters.
Plenty of companies are run this close to failure. Next financial hiccup will
cause this company to trip or fall over.

And that's how much you can link from staff leave entitlements. Its a lazy way
of identifying red flags for sure. Some of these are only related because a
company with bad leave arrangements is of a certain design or style. But the
financial aspects have served me well as a rule of thumb. Culture matters. Be
very suspicious of short leave entitlements and actual usage as they hide a
multitude of sins and dysfunctions.

