

Ask HN: My employer doesn't want to pay me - ukdev

Hi HN,<p>I&#x27;m UK based dev. My employer is avoiding me. I&#x27;m sure he&#x2F;she doesn&#x27;t want to pay me. What can I do?<p>- I have signed contract but without a witness. Is it still valid to go to county court?<p>- I have the access to the server so I&#x27;m going to take down the website (I can do other suff as well)<p>- I&#x27;ll use my SEO skill so the first result on Google will be &quot;XXX is someone cannot be trusted&quot;<p>- I have a evidence that he&#x2F;she was acting in a conflict of interest. I&#x27;m gonna email board members and investor.<p>What would you do and in which order?
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tptacek
_\- I have signed contract but without a witness. Is it still valid to go to
county court?_

Yes.

 _\- I have the access to the server so I 'm going to take down the website (I
can do other suff as well)_

No. Ask lawyer first.

 _\- I 'll use my SEO skill so the first result on Google will be "XXX is
someone cannot be trusted"_

No.

 _\- I have a evidence that he /she was acting in a conflict of interest. I'm
gonna email board members and investor._

No.

 _Later_

It seems to turn out that this:

 _\- I have the access to the server so I 'm going to take down the website (I
can do other suff as well)_

... refers to the company's website. Thus stipulated, my "No, talk to a
lawyer" is "No, that would be insane; you could end up criminally liable".

------
anigbrowl
Call a solicitor! If you don't know who to call then call your local bar
association and explain that you have an employment problem. Typically a first
consultation will be free.

 _\- I have the access to the server so I 'm going to take down the website (I
can do other suff as well)_

...and stop posting nonsense stuff like this, even though you may be
justifiably angry. That sort of thing is a good way to end up being the
defendant in a lawsuit, instead of the plaintiff.

Stop with the revenge fantasies and call a professional. Right now you are
angry because you have been shafted by this employer, who has basically put
one over on you. If you start making angry threats you are likely to end up in
even worse trouble and your employer will end up looking like the victim while
you will look like the villain. I promise you that getting a letter from a
solicitor will rattle your employer a hell of a lot more than any threatening
behavior you could possibly engage in.

~~~
ukdev
I called them and they said it's too small amount and they cannot help me.
They said I should go to employment tribunal or to small claim court, but
first I should draft a letter and send them explaining that I'm serious.

Does anyone have an example of a well written letter?

[http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/wales/consumer_w/consumer_taki...](http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/wales/consumer_w/consumer_taking_action_e/consumer_legal_actions_e/consumer_going_to_court_e/consumer_taking_court_action_e/letter_before_action.htm)

[http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/action/letter-
before-...](http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/action/letter-before-small-
claims-court-claim)

~~~
tehwebguy
Are they actually your employer or a client of yours?

~~~
ukdev
I'm salaried employee.

~~~
dalke
Why are you looking under the consumer section? Since you are an employee, you
should be reading the work fact sheets, at
[http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/work_e/work_factsheets...](http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/work_e/work_factsheets.htm)
. The specific one is "Employer withholds your pay", at
[http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/e_employer_withholds_y...](http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/e_employer_withholds_your_pay.pdf)
.

They don't have a sample letter for that case, such a letter is straight-
forward: "I have not yet received my salary for the period XXX to YYY. I trust
this grievance will be fixed quickly and amicably now that I have brought it
to your attention."

That's all - no threats of legal action (because they better know that
already, and if they don't, that's their problem, not yours), no threats of
personal retribution or revenge (because that's a VERY BAD IDEA).

Ah! See also
[http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/work_e/work_problems_a...](http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/work_e/work_problems_at_work_e/letter_to_raise_a_grievance_at_work)
for longer text, though not specifically for this case. It then has a fill-in-
the-fields form to guide you through the letter making.

You still have plenty of options to pursue besides talking to a solicitor.
Have you contacted your local CAB, or the other options I mentioned earlier?

That fact sheet mentions Acas. They say "Call our Helpline on 0300 123 1100
for free support and advice or to check your workplace policies and practices.
The Acas Helpline provides free and impartial advice for employers, employees
and representatives on a range of employment relations, employment rights, HR
and management issues."
[http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1461](http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1461)

See also [http://www.acas.org.uk/media/pdf/h/b/Problems_at_work_-
_empl...](http://www.acas.org.uk/media/pdf/h/b/Problems_at_work_-
_employees.pdf) for their description of how an employee can handle a
grievance.

Another option is to visit your local library and talk with a librarian to see
what resources they have.

------
junto
You don't do anything that could jeopardise your position. Your first step is
to get help.

    
    
      If you haven't been paid in full
      Speak to your employer first to try to sort the problem informally.
    
      If this doesn't work, talk to Acas (Advisory, Conciliation and
      Arbitration Service), Citizens Advice or your trade union 
      representative.
    
      You have the right to go to an Employment Tribunal to get your money.
    

I was in a similar position a few years ago. We were told though that the
company was in financial difficulty. We later found out that the company had
been withholding pensions payments (and PPP employer payments). It is a
illegal and your employer can be prosecuted. If you have similar concerns then
you can report them:

[http://www.thepensionsregulator.gov.uk/individuals/reporting...](http://www.thepensionsregulator.gov.uk/individuals/reporting-
a-concern.aspx)

The following links will help you:

\- ACAS:
[http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1461](http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1461)

\- Citizen's Advice:
[http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/index/getadvice.htm#searchb...](http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/index/getadvice.htm#searchbox)

\- Gov: [https://www.gov.uk/understanding-your-pay/deductions-from-
yo...](https://www.gov.uk/understanding-your-pay/deductions-from-your-pay)

If your employer is refusing the talk to you, then you are left with little
choice but to move on to arbitration. That's what ACAS are there for.

Approach the whole thing calmly. Do not get angry and make stupid mistakes
(like deleting websites or code). Do not shout and scream at your employer.
Remain calm and civil. I often like to pretend that I am acting as a
consultant for myself when dealing with situations like this. It helps you to
remain more impartial.

Your job is first to understand exactly what is owed. Then you need to extract
£x.xx from your employer. You then would also like an explanation if they feel
like keeping you in their employment. Then should you choose to leave, because
their explanation was not to satisfaction, then you would like a letter of
recommendation. However, do not quit until you speak to Citizen's advice
first. There maybe implications if you quit before your resolve your
greviances.

------
viraptor
[https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/going-to-
court](https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/going-to-court) Do not
break anything, or you'll be also liable. There are official ways of dealing
with people not paying - use them.

------
facorreia
If you take any of these actions (specially the "other stuff") you'll open
yourself to criminal and civil prosecution including damages, defamation and
cyber crimes. You need legal assistance. Maybe you can start here:
[http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/work_e/work_rights_at_...](http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/work_e/work_rights_at_work_e/basic_rights_at_work.htm),
[http://www.lawontheweb.co.uk/employment_law](http://www.lawontheweb.co.uk/employment_law)

~~~
ukdev
The problem is the contract is not signed by the witness and before I'd go to
court and burn the cash I'd like to threaten that my legal and "PR" actions
will cause 10x damage.

~~~
dalke
Quoting from
[https://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=200810131547...](https://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081013154733AApY1eo)
:

> Few if any business contracts actually require witnesses in order to be
> valid. In very general terms all you need is terms that are clear enough to
> be enforced.

> The contract would be considered legally binding as both parties agreed to
> it, put their signatures on it and had it in writing. Witnesses are not
> always necessary. You could even have a contract by word of mouth.

> get some free legal advice from someone who can look over the contract. This
> could be at a CAB. Or, if you're near to a University that has a law school,
> the students there often hold free legal advice clinics - excellent quality
> of advice (overseen by tutors)

The CAB home page for England, which facorreia already pointed out, is at
[http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england.htm](http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england.htm)
(or you can choose Wales, etc.). Search for "unpaid wages", for an additional
list of helpful pages.

 _Do_ _not_ retaliate or threaten to retaliate. This could get you in 100x
trouble.

------
dllthomas
Others have cautioned against taking down the site or similar, and I second
those. I'd also like to point out that libel laws in the UK can bite you _even
when you tell the truth_ so I'd be careful with the bad press approach as
well.

As virtually everyone has said, the very first thing to do is get in touch
with a solicitor. The next thing to do is follow their advice, which I would
_expect_ would be first sending a "srsly, pay me" letter, and then going to
court if that doesn't work.

------
issa
It's already been said, but take heed: do not do anything illegal or unethical
yourself. Be professional.

------
CyberFonic
I'm not a lawyer. AND I do recommend you consult with one. The following is a
suggestion you might want to discuss.

Based on your contract, you should be able to get an enforceable demand for
your employer to pay you. If you are not paid and the deadline for payment
expires, you might be able to get a lien over the server and other property.
At that stage you can shut things down, etc. If the employer is a company then
there might be a case for flagging them as trading whilst insolvent. Under UK
law that is a biggie.

As @issa suggests maintain your dignity and professionalism. Taking revenge
could put a dark cloud above your reputation.

Unless you have political skillz be very careful with how and with what you
contact board members. They might be in cahoots with your problem person. I'd
suggest in person meeting so you can better assess the situation. Emails are
often very unsuitable for such information.

------
Spoom
_What would you do and in which order?_

If I was your employer? I'd get a restraining order against you and use this
post as cause to fire you, as well as keeping it for a _great_ defense against
a lawsuit (since you've painted yourself as a malicious hacker).

------
brudgers
My advice, consider just walking away and finding another job. I'm not saying
that that's what you should do, only something that is worth considering.

Collecting may take a lot of time and energy. That time and energy is on top
of the time and energy spent actually showing up at the office and doing the
work, and the time already spent is a sunk cost.

Finding other gainful work gives a person options. It gives a person time, and
reduces financial pressure. It lets a person look forward.

Good luck.

------
jason_slack
My advice: be more professional. What you posted makes you sound childish with
how you might "get even" for them doing this to you.

Remove this post, walk away from the job, gain other employment and try and
get paid from them for the work you have done.

Have you seen the movie "Office Space"? There is a scene where they just stop
paying an employee in hopes they get the picture and just leave on their own.
A non-confrontational way to part ways....

------
duncan_bayne
Either: speak to a lawyer, or go to county court (if it's a small amount; it
sounds like a county court is something like the small claims court where I
live).

Don't do anything retaliatory or hostile until you've exhausted your legal
options, because it will either leave you liable for damages, or harm your
case, or both.

