
Coffee may have hastened the Ottoman Empire’s demise - Anon84
https://www.1843magazine.com/food-drink/world-in-a-dish/how-turkish-coffee-destroyed-an-empire
======
t_mann
The article doesn’t seem to deliver on its headline. It seems plausible that
urbanisation, economic growth and the emergence of a wealthy class with
sufficient leisure time to hang out and discuss might also have had something
to do with the spread of ideas about political freedoms. The article doesn’t
touch on these at all, and doesn’t provide a compelling reason why the
mentioned historic events wouldn’t have occurred without coffee. It seems more
like a spurious correlation.

~~~
mortenjorck
My reading of the article is that the missing piece from all that you mention
was the right kind of “third place” for people to assemble outside their
places of work, yet away from their homes.

In other cultures, that might have been an ale house. But with the prohibition
on alcohol in the region’s majority faith, it would appear there was nothing
comparable until a beverage-based drug with socially acceptable effects gained
a foothold and a market arose of social spaces serving it.

~~~
kingofpandora
Why not the church or mosque (especially mosques with their open courtyards)?
Or the every-present bathhouses which spread right through the Middle East,
Anatloia and the Balkans?

I agree with the comment above that the article fails to really establish
whether the _kahvehane_ s really were unique.

~~~
Amygaz
Your observations about ‘why not this!’ support OP:

Religious place aren’t typically a place where people meet casually to scheme
some new social structure that would weaken its clergy and royalty.

Bathhouses aren’t exactly discrete or quiet. You can’t really have a
conversation in there without anyone else listening. Plus there is function to
it, it’s not just a casual place to meet and greet.

------
Jun8
For more information about religious fatwa's against coffee use and early
adoption see
([https://books.google.com/books?id=7CP7fYghBFQC&pg=PA633&lpg=...](https://books.google.com/books?id=7CP7fYghBFQC&pg=PA633&lpg=PA633&dq=ahmed+sunbati+fatwa+coffee&source=bl&ots=F8JskkJCa4&sig=ACfU3U2qSicQEG0u7iK_NGWaGTOvw53kxg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiW_-
XHtvLlAhXT6Z4KHZm3AR8Q6AEwAXoECAgQAg#v=onepage&q=ahmed%20sunbati%20fatwa%20coffee&f=false))

One interesting thing about coffee culture in Turkey is the tradition of
"fortune telling": After one finishes their coffee the cup is turned upside
down on the saucer and waits for 5-10 minutes. Then, the shapes that the
grounds make in the cup and the saucer is interpreted, usually for fun. For
more info: [http://www.turkishstylegroundcoffee.com/turkish-coffee-
readi...](http://www.turkishstylegroundcoffee.com/turkish-coffee-reading)

~~~
aorth
> For more information about religious fatwa's against coffee use and early
> adoption see
> ([https://books.google.com/books?id=7CP7fYghBFQC&pg=PA633&lpg=...](https://books.google.com/books?id=7CP7fYghBFQC&pg=PA633&lpg=PA633&dq=ahmed+sunbati+fatwa+coffee&source=bl&ots=F8JskkJCa4&sig=ACfU3U2qSicQEG0u7iK_NGWaGTOvw53kxg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiW_-
> XHtvLlAhXT6Z4KHZm3AR8Q6AEwAXoECAgQAg#v=onepage&q=ahmed%20sunbati%20fatwa%20coffee&f=false))

Excellent resource! It's an anecdote, but once I heard that governments
criminalized coffee more readily than alcohol because people got together and
conspired. In the case of alcohol the conspirators forgot what they had talked
about by the morning, but with coffee they did not. Your source seems to hint
at that as well:

> _The fact that current politics were discussed in the coffee-houses, the
> government 's acts criticised and intrigues woven, was the principal cause
> for the intervention of the authorities._

~~~
DrScump

      people got together and conspired
    

Hence Charles II's claim that London coffeehouses were nurseries of sedition
and rebellion.

~~~
em-bee
and today the same thing is happening with the internet.

------
coldtea
> _Ethnic groups in European regions of the empire with an Eastern Orthodox
> Christian majority started agitating for independence. Nationalist leaders
> planned their tactics and cemented alliances in the coffee houses of
> Thessaloniki, Sofia and Belgrade. Their caffeine-fuelled efforts succeeded
> with the establishment of an independent Greece in 1821, Serbia in 1835, and
> Bulgaria in 1878. The reign of kahve was over._

Those things (the rise of nation states) would have happened with, or without
the coffee, as they happened all around central and western Europe as well
even earlier, and in the 20th century, all around the world.

There were several factors for that, including the rise of national awareness,
easier promotion of such causes through typography, the decline of the Ottoman
empire itself (the "Sick man of Europe" as it was called at the time), and the
plain old fact that many regional majorities, especially Christians, were
ruled over as second class citizens...

------
air7
An interesting similarity can be drawn to today's digital social network. The
main idea of the article is that coffee created cafe culture which in turn
created a shift in the way people interacted and eased the exchange of ideas
that eventually helped fuel the effort that led to fall of the empire.

In a way, Facebook created a a similar shift in the way people communicate and
made exchange of ideas easier. And this, arguable, has already supported
several major real-world changes such as the Arab Spring, US election
meddling, etc.

~~~
petre
You forgot about Sri Lanka sectarian violence. If coffee (or tea) eases the
exchange of ideas, social media eases the exchange and amplification of
outrage.

------
cryptozeus
Imo this has nothing to do with coffee itself. It could have very well been
some other drink or food that was used as a medium to socialize over.

~~~
Schoolmeister
Yes, but nowhere is it implied that it is because of something inherent to
coffee. It probably could have been another delicious drink, like hot
chocolate. That doesn't diminish the content of this article though.

~~~
BurningFrog
The thing with coffee isn't that it's delicious. It's actually quite hard to
make it palatable.

But coffee is (1) addictive, and (2) induces wakefulness and action.

I've seen loose theories that coffee was the real reason for the Industrial
Revolution. It's not hard to imagine the extra energy it produces to also go
into political efforts.

~~~
smt88
> _The thing with coffee isn 't that it's delicious. It's actually quite hard
> to make it palatable_

This is like saying it's hard to make chocolate, tea, or many other ultra-
popular foods/drinks palatable.

Step 1 of 1: add sweetener. Not hard at all.

Many people (including me) would argue that coffee is delicious without
sweetener, though. Perhaps you don't understand how people like it, but that's
far from a universal opinion.

~~~
em-bee
i never liked coffee. the addiction and wakefulness it induces takes more than
one cup. but i was turned off from coffee after just having one sip. so i
suspect that there must be more to it than that and that i simply don't
understand how people like it.

probably things like mild peer pressure, fitting in with the grown ups, etc,
much like smoking, and maybe even drinking.

~~~
smt88
I don't totally understand what you're trying to say, but again: some people
enjoy black coffee, smoking, and alcohol _just on their own_.

Yes, social factors increase usage of all these things and people will force
themselves to do it, but that's not universal.

I also love the flavor of smoking tobacco products (including cigarettes),
although I only smoke a few times a year for social, health, and convenience
reasons.

~~~
em-bee
the point is, addiction and side effects only take hold after consuming coffee
for a while. for someone who doesn't like coffee there is a low risk of
getting addicted. therefore there either must be people who do like coffee as
it is or they are pushed by some form of peer pressure.

obviously, tastes vary strongly, so both groups must exist.

in my case i escape the peer pressure by discovering that strong coffee
actually made me sick, and i used that as an excuse to reject coffee even in
situations where it was considered impolite to reject an offer when i was
visiting people.

------
nl
This is ridiculous.

The Ottoman empire was a huge, multi-ethinic and multi-religous empire and the
amazing thing is that is stayed together as long as it did.

Saying the the Greeks, the Bulgarians and the Serbians revolts succeeded
because of caffeine ignores the long history of revolts which at time were
moderately successful for a while. For example, in the 1770s there was a Greek
revolt which led to partial de-facto independence of Laconia for many
years[1].

The bigger difference after the 1820s was the interest of the great European
powers in supporting these movements. With Great Britain, France and Russia
all supporting these revolutions militarly it would have been surprising if
they hadn't succeeded.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maniots#18th_century](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maniots#18th_century)

------
pcmaffey
Fun fact: Turkish coffee, Cypriot coffee, and Greek coffee are all exactly the
same thing... except perhaps for the ethnicity of the hand serving it.

~~~
harel
That's true. Turkish coffee is the most political coffee there is. In Israel,
it's a national drink (and referred to as Turkish coffee, no appropriation on
that one). However, there is a proper version and a lazy version. The proper
one is where one would cook the coffee on a hob. Takes some time and care. The
lazy one, which I sin with 3-4 times every day, is a a heaped spoon at the
bottom of a glass (never china/porcelain, and usually larger than a proper
turkish coffee cup), hot water on top and a hefty mix. Quick, dirty and hits
so many spots I can't even begin to imagine life without it.

~~~
Florin_Andrei
> _at the bottom of a glass_

Is that tradition, or just the way you (personally) prepare it?

~~~
oeuviz
I have never heard of that lazy version. Here is how probably most Bosnian
families would do it:

\- Grind coffee beans as fine as you can, much finer than for espresso

\- in the meantime, make sure to boil your water and then put it aside.

\- heat up the _džezva_ (turk: cezve) slowly for a few seconds (so that water
that is poured in does not cool down too quickly)

\- take 9g of coffee powder per cup and put it into your _džezva_. You can
vary the amount to your likings. I take 18g of coffee for around 360ml of
water.

\- with the _džezva_ still on the hot plate pour around 1/3 of the water
slowly into the _džezva_. The water turns into a foamy dark liquid. Gently
adjust temperature so that the liquid is slowly heated. This will make it rise
due to the foam on top.

\- Let it rise to about 2/3 of the _džezva_. Remove _džezva_ from the plate,
let the coffee set a little (to about 1/2).

\- Pour more water into the coffee, again to 2/3 of the _džezva_

\- put _džezva_ back on plate, heat it up and let the coffee rise to 1/1 of
the _džezva_

\- remove from plate, slowly fill with water until the level is back to 1/1
(foamy liquid is setting again and will allow you to add more water)

Your coffee is ready to serve. Serve in _fildžan_ or small cups.

Edit: formatting.

~~~
acqq
What was the name of coffee in Bosnia historically? I can't believe it wasn't
"Turkish coffee". I would expect that the name "Bosnian coffee" (that the
article claims is now used) is something very recent (something similar to
what bigwheeler here writes about "Greek" coffee). Is the name even really
used?

Btw, the proper formatting here is to separate paragraphs with an empty line
and to remove all leading spaces in front of every paragraph, to avoid the
text being treated as the source code.

~~~
oeuviz
I was there recently and visited Sarajevo and actualy faced this as a real
world problem: wanted to order bosnian coffee in a restaurant but was kind of
unable to express myself.

If you order coffee (kahva/kafa) in Bosnia nowadays, you are likely to get
whatever comes out of the machine installed at the bar.

To get the real deal I had to order using one of these expressions: domaća
kafa/kahva (homeland coffee? native coffee?) naša kafa/kahva (translates to
"our coffee")

or

bosanska kafa.

However, traditionally I guess coffee was just called kahva/kafa as it
probably was not distingueshed between the verious forms of preparation. And
also calling it turkish coffee would seem ok, as the whole area is highly
influenced by (ancient) Turkey, not only linguistically.

~~~
acqq
Thanks. I believe you can still fix the formatting above to avoid “source
code” look which can’t be read easily, especially on mobile.

~~~
oeuviz
Done, thanks for pointing it out!

------
sn41
This is a fairly ridiculous premise. You cannot trivialise an empire that
lasted more than 400 years and held together one of the most fractious region
on earth (look at what happened after the Ottomans) and say that it was so
brittle that a drink could bring it down. Very few empires in history last
that long.

It may just be that other regions went ahead in historical pace. Even with all
the outpacing, battles like Gallipoli (which is the basis of the Anzac Day in
Australia and NZ) show that Ottomans were a force to be reckoned with, even in
their twilight.

Just like pop science, pop history is also a form of spam.

~~~
macspoofing
>You cannot trivialise an empire that lasted more than 400 years

Why not? It wouldn't be the first time that a great empire was brought to its
knees due to the introduction of something novel.

~~~
kingofpandora
How novel was coffee though really? Tea is the real drink of the Middle East
and if coffee was really that of a distabling influence, why did it take
several hundred years for the effect to take hold?

And why did this coffee-inspired nationalism in the Ottoman Empire just happen
to coincide with its emergence in Europe?

~~~
Mediterraneo10
Tea did not take off in the Ottoman Empire until the 19th century. While yes,
now tea has utterly eclipsed coffee in Turkey as the everyday beverage, it is
actually a pretty recent introduction.

~~~
kingofpandora
Absolutely - and that's when the alleged impact of coffee struck the Ottoman
Empire (19th-century national movements).

So even more likely it was tea than coffee, no?

------
tugberkk
Somewhat true. Of course, this is a headline and it is a little exaggerated,
however as I said, somewhat true. But I would like to correct something as a
Turkish. These places were also called "kiraathane". -hane is "house".
Kahvehane means coffee house, kiraathane means kiraat house. The word "kiraat"
means "to read".

Therefore people were not only doing conspiracy, they were "learning" at the
same time.

------
mirimir
> Even when taken sade, or plain, the flavour profile depends on the roast;
> the medium-to-darker beans of the Turkish variety produce coffee with an
> earthy taste, smoky notes and thick texture. When you drain your cup, you
> will see fine grains coating the bottom. The effects soon hit. Emperors of
> the world, beware.

It's my understanding that lighter roasts have more caffeine, because it gets
destroyed at high temperatures. Also, lighter roasts are more palatable when
made very strong. Or conversely, darker roasts taste OK when made weaker.

~~~
Godel_unicode
There's no change in caffeine content with different roasts, this is a popular
myth. Also, properly roasted dark roasts are much better (where better means
richer and more complex) than light roasts, as the maillard reaction has been
allowed to do it's magic more fully than under-roasted (or light roast)
coffee. Most coffee specialty roasters sell far more City or Italian roast
than light roasts.

This whole "dark roast is bad" thing is really Starbucks fault, since they
burn their dark roast for consistency reasons.

[https://www.kickinghorsecoffee.com/en/blog/caffeine-myths-
da...](https://www.kickinghorsecoffee.com/en/blog/caffeine-myths-dark-vs-
light)

[https://www.partnerscoffee.com/blogs/news/roasting-and-
caffe...](https://www.partnerscoffee.com/blogs/news/roasting-and-caffeine-
content)

~~~
mirimir
Well, I use ~40 gm coffee per mug. And if that were dark roast, I'd be adding
way too much sugar to make it palatable.

------
fasteo
I have no knowledge about Ottoman Empire history, but my immediate thought
after finishing reading was "This makes sense, maybe not as-is, but as an
important contributing factor", and Twitter came to my mind as the new coffee
shop [1]

[1] [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/07/exists-demobilise-
opp...](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/07/exists-demobilise-opposition-
twitter-fails-arabs-190716080010123.html)

------
0db532a0
A couple of interesting facts related to the article:

1\. The arabic word "finjan" adapted to "fincan" in Turkish means cup, as in
the type of vessel used for any type of coffee, not only kahve. The "fincan"
may have a handle. 2\. Greeks are not the only ones to use mastic in their
kahve. Some Turkish people not necessarily of Greek descent add it to their
kahve and many other things.

~~~
sdiq
I am not Turkish and neither write nor speak the language, however, based on
how i see the Erdogan's first name with a 'c' ia pronounced, the two words are
probably pronounced the same i.e. 'finjan'. I am Somali and we used to use the
same word for a vessel bigger than a cup. I don't see people use the same
nowadays tho.

~~~
0db532a0
Yes, c is pronounced as ‘j’ in ‘jacket’.

------
frio
There's a book called The Devil's Cup, which is one of those travel/history
hybrids, that follows along with a similar tale. It feels a bit cavalier with
the facts; it has a hypothesis and seeks to prove that out rather than
disprove it -- but it's an interesting read nonetheless.

------
golergka
Does the author seriously assume that before coffee, people of the Ottoman
empire had no public place for casual gatherings?

Had he never heard of hookahs?

~~~
kingofpandora
Or bathhouses? Or mosques? Or gardens?

It's a fairly absurd claim that the author makes.

------
simula67
@Dang, can we have a rule about editing away clickbaity headlines?

The story here seems to be: coffee shops allowed people another venue to
socialize and challenge existing power structures.

There is nothing special about Turkish coffee and coffee may not even have
been important. As people got educated and had more free time, they may have
found other venues to communicate and exchange ideas. 'Increasing leisure time
and freedom destroyed an autocratic empire' may be a more accurate and still
interesting headline that takes the discussion away from complaints about the
headline.

~~~
rtpg
I agree with sibling, but:

> As people got educated and had more free time, they may have found other
> venues to communicate and exchange ideas.

The point is that in this particular case it was the coffee shops. They were
popular, they were profitable, they were lead by “literate people” (something
to think about).

It’s interesting to think about why this thing happened in these kinds of
places. There are other examples of revolutions instead being triggered from
religious places, from work places, from battlefields... the “non-uniqueness”
is debatable.

Even just the tidbit about state power being unable to outright shut these
down. There are so many axes you can go down when thinking about it. There’s
the power struggle itself, both between state and capital and between state
and the people (which ones though?). There are difficulties of empire. There’s
so much.

Good stuff is available here

