
I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Protection - stryk
https://vc.gg/blog/so-its-been-a-while.html
======
Steeeve
As an American citizen who travelled extensively up until TSA made me too
miserable to continue, I am absolutely embarrassed about the travel situation
in the United States.

I grew up in the land of freedom, and grew up hating overzealous and pointless
"security" associated with the iron curtain.

We have freedom of speech, which inherently means freedom of thought. At one
point we were the bastion of freedom and hope, and a leader in this regard.
Nobody should fear harassment because they happened to speak at DEFCON anymore
than one should fear harassment because they spoke at Jesus camp, or the
science fair for that matter.

We SHOULD be encouraging people to come here and talk about things that might
get them in trouble in their home countries. We SHOULD take a position of
leadership and protect the basic inalienable rights of all people regardless
of their citizenship, alliances, or thoughts.

I am absolutely appalled at the state that our government has arrived at. I am
stunned that after such a strong revocation of the previous leadership that
Obama's generation sought to increase security theater, decrease freedom, and
decrease the rights afforded to our own citizens and our visitors.

The enemy of our freedom isn't thousands of miles away in some terrorist
training camp. It's the people we freely elect who have seemingly no
forethought and no historical understanding of our fundamental values.

A leader isn't someone who looks to cover his ass at every opportunity. A
leader is someone who stands up, tells people there is something wrong, and
pushes us back to the values that we were raised to be proud of. You don't
have to be president to be a leader. Every police officer, every border agent,
every engineer, janitor, and unemployed citizen can stand up at some point and
see enough is enough. People need to stop arguing about politics and stop
worrying about the boogey man. People need to start caring about freedom and
they need to stop the culture of fear.

Sorry... This whole discussion hit a sore spot for me. I have always been a
proud american and this kind of behavior just flies in the face of the values
I was raised to embrace.

~~~
aryehof
The constant affirmation of being "free", the need to "protect our freedom"
and "the greatest country in the world", simply stops people questioning
anything about the relative state of society and freedom.

Instead of being 1st in the world, the USA ranks 23rd in the world for freedom
[1], and 11th for economic freedom [2].

It's only likely to get worse.

Even sadder is that there are countries where people have a average life
expectancy up to 5% longer than the USA.

[1] [https://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index](https://www.cato.org/human-
freedom-index) [2]
[http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking](http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking)

~~~
edblarney
And in that 'ranking' they put 'Hong Kong' as the #1 'most free' place in the
world.

Yes, the same Hong Kong that is not a democracy, wherein the CCP can and will
come and get you anytime they please, wherein if you speak out against the
government, you can go to jail, wherein every action of every citizen is
monitored by the CPP.

I find this to be somewhat problematic.

Apparently they forgot to include 'political freedom' \- which is a rather odd
thing to overlook :)

They also place nations such as UAE far ahead of the US in terms of 'economic
freedom' \- this, a 'nation' wherein the various 'mini monarchs' have absolute
authority, can pluck your finances, do as they please with you - for whatever
reason they want, at any time, and are completely above the law. Of course
total censorship of information, and absolute power by the police to intervene
in your personal affairs have something to do with 'economic freedom'.

The Cato institute does some good (but opinionated work), but find this is
irresponsible.

~~~
seanp2k2
Agree. Also:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_United_Arab_Emi...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_United_Arab_Emirates)

------
ploddington
It would be fun to start a meme of carrying antiquated electronic waste
devices, and getting them confiscated as a means of disposal.

Encrypt them with spacefiller data and start crossing borders, and then refuse
to provide passwords and abandon them for sheer amusement.

Way more fun than recycling old laptops and batteries. And better than
planning to travel empty handed, in anticipation of getting ripped off by
pesky customs guards.

~~~
psybin
> Encrypt them with spacefiller data and start crossing borders, and then
> refuse to provide passwords and abandon them for sheer amusement.

You don't get that option. The first thing that happens to everybody who is
attempting to enter the US and flagged is that they give you a form to write
down all keys and passwords you might have, they will then unlock your phone
and attempt to find anything that might be used to bar you from entering.

A common method of confirming a profiled person seems to be using the "I have
not done illegal drugs" checkbox on the entry documentation, they will find
any drug reference on your devices using the passwords they just discovered.
If you answer "yes", you're a criminal and you are barred from entry. If you
answer "no" and they find any reference to any recreational drug, no matter
the context, you just lied to a federal officer and you are barred from entry.

One rejection is enough to ban you for life from ESTA, so for most people
entering the US who don't have a temporary working visa, being profiled is the
last time you'll ever be able to enter the united states. A woman I was
speaking to was bumped back onto their flight for a 3 year old SMS on her
phone where a friend asked if she wanted to come over and smoke a joint.

~~~
rdslw
I will refuse giving keys to hdd/usb, pretending they are randomly empty. I
will give it to the phone (and have nothing there).

This prohibits them from barring me from entering, and allow them only to
seize the hdd/usb.

~~~
jamessb
The advice I've heard is that if you're concerned about being compelled to
release passwords or encyption keys you should cross borders with no
personal/work data on your devices. This avoids any 'half-truths' that could
still get you into trouble. Once you have safely crosed, download what you
need from during your trip from your server (and consider using it as a VPN
for all your internet browsing).

If the authorities take your device out of your sight, and you're sufficiently
paranoid, then discard it and buy fresh hardware.

~~~
Asooka
What if I overwrite the partition table with an empty one, say "I'm just
carrying empty HDDs", then restore it later? If all the data is encrypted, it
will just look random, even if they dump all of it, which is what I imagine a
new HDD looks like.

~~~
csydas
I'm not quite sure what you're trying to accomplish - TSA agents are no more
trained in computers than your average mall-cop and if they do decide to
inspect your electronics, it's likely because you were flagged already when
the ticket was purchased or you rubbed the agent the wrong way. What your
drive looks like is probably irrelevant as the decision to copy isn't based on
evidence or practicality it's based on an order from higher up or a whim, and
then procedure is followed, which for electronics is to plug the drive in and
do a copy of some sort.

I mean you can do whatever you want but only the encryption is going to do you
any good for actual security. Even if you make it really convincing that the
drives are empty, procedure is still going to make them plug it into the
copier anyways. I mean, from the article, they're confiscating headphones and
power cords - there's no rhyme or reason here except intimidation; the agents
don't investigate - someone else does.

Do what you like, but it sounds like hassle you're adding to what is going to
happen anyways.

~~~
Zak
_I 'm not quite sure what you're trying to accomplish - TSA agents are no more
trained in computers than your average mall-cop and if they do decide to
inspect your electronics_

This depends entirely on the context. If you're a high-value target to an
intelligence agency, there's a very high probability they would have someone
pose as an agent of the TSA or CBP, or that they would have one of those
agencies grant them access to your electronics. Someone involved in the
publication of leaks or creation of security-related software would count as a
high-value target.

 _they 're confiscating headphones and power cords - there's no rhyme or
reason here except intimidation_

This, too depends on context. For the average person, the purpose is obviously
nothing more than harassment. It's not difficult for a flash drive to be
concealed inside a USB cable though, and if you're being targeted for a
search, it makes sense for them to take everything.

On the other hand, a MicroSD card can be hidden just about anywhere, so if
they're not going through _all_ your stuff with a fine-toothed comb, the whole
thing is theater.

~~~
bigbugbag
> If you're a high-value target to an intelligence agency...

They have threatened to shoot a presidential plane flying over Europe and
searched it on the possibility that Snowden might be on board. So yes be aware
when you are a person of interest.

------
vowelless
This is ridiculous!

Some colleagues and I get back from Barcelona in December and while I didn't
have any problems [1], my colleague who is Indian born, but with a green card,
was questioned for 30 or so minutes. Gladly he didn't have his electronics
seized but as a permanent resident of this country, one would have expected
some better treatment.

American border security has been among the most draconian one since I set
foot into this country in 2007 [2]. I don't have high hopes from the next 4 to
8 years either. Conferences should start moving outside of the US. I don't see
a point in non-Americans wanting to vacation in the US either -- there are a
lot of other great places in the world.

[1] I am born in the Middle East, with a name that raises all the alarm bells
for the DHS and was on the NSEERS list. I was detained in 2010 for a few hours
in DC on my way back from the Middle East (everything short of a full cavity
search was done). As soon as I got my green card, I applied for Global Entry
and now don't have to interact with any border security agents on my way back
into the country.

[2] In my early days, my boarding pass would have SSSS either hand written or
printed on it:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_Security_Screening_S...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_Security_Screening_Selection)

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
I once knew a Mexican green card holder whose name was a soundex match to
someone on the most wanted list. Suffice to say re-entering the US was a
challenge for him.

~~~
lrem
A friend of mine happens to have a somewhat similar surname and come from the
same country as a known terrorist. He just gave up and refuses to travel to
USA any more, despite being a senior engineer in Google.

------
2ion
I've always been guarding against such things whenever I passed through a non-
free or otherwise questionable country's air ports: Laptop contents were
pruned of everything, leaving just the base OS, and data was stored
redundantly on dedicated servers connected to the internet. I then would
connect via SSH or VPN, unlock the encrypted partitions and download whatever
I needed.

The only countries where I got treated in an appropriate, respectful manner at
airports were Japan (both entry and exit as a foreign citizen) and Germany. UK
(Heathrow) and VAE just had idiots and bullies for security and were my worst
experiences. Which I'm assuming is entirely intentional. Going for the
headphones even is really a bit stark I'd say.

Needlessly to say, I don't fly to or via these countries whenever I can avoid
it at a good price.

~~~
Periodic
The most awkward experience I've had with an airport as a US Citizen is LHR.
It seemed disorganized, lots policies being enforced by people who had no
context on how to enforce them.

The most invasive experience I've had with an airport was TLV. Though it was
helped by the fact that I knew they were going to be thorough, they had plenty
of staff, and the staff all seemed very well trained. However, I've heard that
it can be a lot worse if you provide the wrong answers or aren't a white
American traveling on business.

Other airports like FRA or AMS have been relatively pleasant.

~~~
pvdebbe
LHR is just awful, strongly enforcing the stereotype of Britain being
succumbed into Orwellian dystopy. Lucky me, JFK has always been very friendly
with me. I do have a very trustable face, people tell me.

------
rdslw
Might be slightly off-topic, but I'm still curious about one experience:

On return flight from US I refused to use full body scanner. I got 'thorough
pat' (called that way probably to scare us, although it wasn't so bad), also
my carry-on was checked in detailed way.Interesting things happened further, I
have two stage flight.

1\. On first landing in Germany, while moving by foot to next connection, I
was picked by Germany border officers from all passengers going through
corridor, and examined for about 5 minutes, also my carry on was scanned.
Nothing serious, but happened first time ever (try of 20 I would say)

2\. on final destination, while I picked my checked bag, it was marked with
stickers, and I was picked by border people of my country, also asked, both
bags checked.

3\. At home I saw TSA notice inside of my checked bag.

Last thing wasn't unusual, I would say I had it on 30% flights from US, but
all three items in a row connected somehow (?) to the full body scan refusal,
were a little bit too much for a pure coincidence.

~~~
HappyTypist
As someone who refuses body scans every time and have never had anything
happen (Other than a brief secondary that involved waiting for 5 minutes and a
"Sorry, you're good to go"), I don't think refusing the full body scanners has
anything to do with it

~~~
ninjin
Likewise, I have refused scanning in the US, England, and the Netherlands, for
the last 8 years and don't have much to report. As much as I hate security
theatre, I try to be polite and when asked for the reason I opt out I state
that it is political, the devices don't make us safer, and I'd like them to
hire more personnel instead ("just like you fine Sir"). In the US, apart from
an occasional sigh, my worst experiences have been being insulted by an agent
at SFO and an agent putting my shoes with the soles down on my laptop at ORD
despite me asking him not to. I do however find that agents in the UK are much
less cooperative with "nutcases" such as me, with one officer stating that I
made her feel "uncomfortable" by standing as opposed to sitting while waiting
since I insisted on seeing my belongings as they take no responsibility for
them.

~~~
kwhitefoot
> with one officer stating that I made her feel "uncomfortable"

This is becoming a common reaction in the UK, not just at borders and not just
with customs and immigration officers. I encountered a similar attitude once
when I was accosted by a security guard in Tesco who demanded that I put shoes
on. When I politely asked him why he immediately called his supervisor on the
radio and told her that I was threatening him.

~~~
BillinghamJ
Uhh, why were you wandering around Tesco with no shoes on?

~~~
cardiffspaceman
Seems like it's a statement being made about excessive hygiene norms.
Personally I feel the soles of my feet afford some protection, but not enough
for certain public places. I have no direct experience of Tesco, maybe they
are especially clean.

~~~
BillinghamJ
I think it may be more a question of how clean the patron is. If they tend to
walk around public places with no shoes on, one might imagine that their
overall hygiene may not be particularly good.

Most likely though it's a health and safety policy - sharp things on the
floor, etc.

~~~
cardiffspaceman
I'm a fairly square, non-trouble-making, shower-positive individual who loves
going around barefoot. I might think Tesco is the wrong place, but I wouldn't
assume anything about a barefooted person.

------
109981283091
The bizarre thing is that once upon a time these "contraband" checks were a
thing at the East German (communist) border.

You would be checked for unwanted newspapers, literature etc.

At the time the U.S. was vehemently against the practice ...

~~~
PythonicAlpha
When you compare things, you will end up, that today those people have for
more elaborate techniques for spying on us. When the people which have done it
in East Germany, look at what is done in the West today, they have tears in
their eyes, because what they did was Kindergarden in comparison.

------
un-devmox
For those that don't know who don't know who Vincent Canfield is (I didn't),
it is worth reading up on the man as he is a fascinating if not controversial
person with a flair for raw/abrasive humor and a confrontational manner. He
faced extradition and criminal charges in Germany [0] and his email service,
cock.li, was at the center of the terrorist hoax against US schools [1].

[0]
[https://twitter.com/gexcolo/status/715640881651564544?lang=e...](https://twitter.com/gexcolo/status/715640881651564544?lang=en)
[1] [http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-story-of-cockli-the-
sit...](http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-story-of-cockli-the-site-used-to-
shut-down-the-la-school-district)

I would like to respond to a few comments:

> Why do we only hear stories about this from the US and not from China or
> Russia?
> [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13454966](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13454966)

As a proud US citizen, I understand the slight you are feeling. It's as if we
are continually being picked on and singled out for every misstep. In these
types of thread I always see comments like:

> USA: make East Germany great again.
> [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13454689](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13454689)

> Yip. Traveling to the US is ironically the one place where I'd be concerned
> about my rights & freedom. Their tourist harassment force really needs to
> relax.
> [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13455194](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13455194)

Which infuriate me! But, we (as US citizens) __should __be held to the highest
of standards because at times what we preach as a country is contradicted by
our actions. It 's not good enough to say, "Well, this is an isolated
incident," or "Look at what x_country does." To justify abusive over reaching
actions by our government based on what another country does is not logical or
constructive. What we need to do is improve ourselves as a country and by
doing so maybe set an example for others.

------
ChuckMcM
Sadly this is feeling more and more like the new 'normal'. Carry a copy of
your essential data, heavily encrypted, in an 'attachable' hard drive. Leave
the expensive display and keyboard (aka laptop) at home.

Now I'm wondering if I can patch Asterix so that if I text it a particular
challenge and response will it take the number that is texting it and route my
phone number to it.

~~~
walrus01
Or don't carry anything, and take an old thinkpad with basically a throwaway
thin client OS on it set up to allow you access to a vnc-over-ssh session
elsewhere.

~~~
bjelkeman-again
What would be a good tutorial for those that aren't familiar with this?

~~~
pizza
These links might be a good step in the direction of familiarization

[http://askubuntu.com/questions/304017/how-to-set-up-
remote-d...](http://askubuntu.com/questions/304017/how-to-set-up-remote-
desktop-sharing-through-ssh)

[http://security.stackexchange.com/questions/86666/how-to-
han...](http://security.stackexchange.com/questions/86666/how-to-handle-disk-
encryption-for-remote-connection)

------
mirimir
The safest option is traveling light. Just a cheap notebook and phone,
containing no sensitive data, which you will abandon if
compromised/confiscated. That way, you attract little attention at borders.
Keep your data online, securely encrypted, and buy equipment "anonymously" for
cash.

~~~
Anderkent
The safest option, and what I recommend to all my friends, is to simply take
vacation somewhere else. Lots of countries around in europe and asia that
actually welcome visitors. Especially if you'd need a visa to visit the USA;
seriously, not worth the effort.

~~~
tajen
Exactly, I refuse to go to USA even for conferences I'm invited to speak at.

Many countries invite you without compromising your phone or telling you that
drugs you've done are a national security threat. Plus if you have ever
watched porn on your phone or laptop, you can be blackmailed with jail time.
USA just doesn't desire people like us.

~~~
hueving
>Plus if you have ever watched porn on your phone or laptop, you can be
blackmailed with jail time

You lost me here. Porn isn't illegal in the US. Are you thinking of the new UK
porn laws?

~~~
tajen
Sorry I've skipped a step. I'm quite confident that the day they want to
corner you, they'll claim the porn pics in your browser cache are child porn.
Even a drawing counts as "depiction of child pornography" and if you don't
have the ID of the actor on file, good luck claiming your innocence.

------
rwmj
Good job they've seized those dangerous headphones and USB cables ...

It makes no rational sense because if you think the headphones are more than
they appear to be (eg. they have a secret memory card), then why not seize
every other solid item -- pens, toothbrush, even the suitcase itself could be
suspicious. So the conclusion is this is just designed to intimidate and
inconvenience.

~~~
lolikoisuru
>Good job they've seized those dangerous headphones and USB cables ...

You need to seize them if you want to hide spying devices in them.

------
walrus01
For those not in the loop, this is the guy who runs
[http://cock.li](http://cock.li)

~~~
angry-hacker
Why are all the names profanities? Serious questions.. Some are pretty..
Racist. Why people use this service, because of transparency and anonymity?

~~~
luckystartup
He's an active member of 4chan, and that's how this email service was started.
Similar to Imgur being made for Reddit users.

It's basically a culture of trolling people and making lots of overly sexual
and racist jokes. The porn on his phone was "nude anime girls with MAGA hats".
A lot of 4chan users seem to be Trump supporters. I'm not sure what percentage
are actual Trump supporters, versus people who just want to troll the US with
memes and watch the world burn.

One of the email domains is "tfwno.gf", which means: "That feel(ing) when (you
have) no girlfriend". Depression and loneliness is a common theme, so there's
a lot of lonely people taking out their frustration. There's also a lot of
pretty normal people who just enjoy being rude and gross for no reason.

4chan can be a pretty dark and weird place. But I've heard there can also be
some fairly positive sub-communities and good discussions.

------
ergot
Worth listening to Jake Appelbaum's 'digital anti repression workshop' [1]. In
this he explains why he takes the hard-drive out of his laptop and just uses a
TailsOS thumb-drive for his computing. It would be actually hilarious when
staff ask to peruse the contents of your computer for contraband, only to
discover the laptop doesn't have a hard-drive.

[1]: part 1
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHoJ9pQ0cn8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHoJ9pQ0cn8)

[#]: part 2
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9fByRmAHgU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9fByRmAHgU)

------
marak830
These officers refused to identify themselves to me at all, which is
interesting "

Is that even legal?

~~~
syshum
Since when has something being legal or illegal ever stopped US law
enforcement.

There is no actual accountability, so why should they care if what they do is
illegal. They are the law, and they make shit up as they go

~~~
gorbachev
Border entry points aren't legally in United States and you have absolutely no
rights whatsoever, even if a US citizen, when at those locations.

There is nothing new about this, but it's been getting worse ever since the
evul hackers started subverting the US Government by encrypting and leaking
the Government's illegal activities.

~~~
zeroer
I missed that part in the constitution where it said these rights not
available in all areas.

~~~
rhizome
Not in the Constitution per se, but:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception)

~~~
zeroer
That was kind of my point. It's not in the constitution and conflicts with the
constitution.

~~~
Nrsolis
It doesn't conflict with the Constitution and this is a common
misunderstanding by laymen about how the law works in the USA.

"Case Law" vs "Statutory Law" is the name of the game here.

To not beat a dead horse: every single decision made by the Supreme Court is
_effectively_ in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

Any part of the Constitution can be interpreted, modified, or nullified by a
decision of the Supreme Court.

So, when the SCOTUS decides that an exemption against prohibitions against
unreasonable search and seizure applies at the border, you can be assured that
they view it as "constitutional".

~~~
syshum
Which is contrary to how many of the framers wanted the nation to be run... I
cite Jefferson

>>"The Constitution... meant that its coordinate branches should be checks on
each other. But the opinion which gives to the judges the right to decide what
laws are constitutional and what not, not only for themselves in their own
sphere of action but for the Legislature and Executive also in their spheres,
would make the Judiciary a despotic branch." \--Thomas Jefferson [1804]

>>"To consider the judges as the ultimate arbiters of all constitutional
questions [is] a very dangerous doctrine indeed, and one which would place us
under the despotism of an oligarchy. Our judges are as honest as other men and
not more so. They have with others the same passions for party, for power, and
the privilege of their corps. Their maxim is boni judicis est ampliare
jurisdictionem [good justice is broad jurisdiction], and their power the more
dangerous as they are in office for life and not responsible, as the other
functionaries are, to the elective control. The Constitution has erected no
such single tribunal, knowing that to whatever hands confided, with the
corruptions of time and party, its members would become despots. It has more
wisely made all the departments co-equal and co-sovereign within themselves."
\--Thomas Jefferson [1820]

>>"This member of the Government was at first considered as the most harmless
and helpless of all its organs. But it has proved that the power of declaring
what the law is, ad libitum, by sapping and mining slyly and without alarm the
foundations of the Constitution, can do what open force would not dare to
attempt." \--Thomas Jefferson [1825]

Over the last 200 years to much reverence and power has been placed in the
hands of the Supreme Court, and the federal government in general.

~~~
Nrsolis
I'm not arguing for one side or the other. I'm telling you how it works _in
practice_.

Complain all you like. Our Constitution spells out in very clear terms that
blacks are to be considered 3/5th of a white man for the purposes of
representation in Congress. If that term itself isn't an example of how wrong
it is to be a strict textualist I don't know a better example.

I wouldn't make the mistake of pretending that the Constitution is a perfect
document. You shouldn't either.

~~~
wtbob
> Our Constitution spells out in very clear terms that blacks are to be
> considered 3/5th of a white man for the purposes of representation in
> Congress. If that term itself isn't an example of how wrong it is to be a
> strict textualist I don't know a better example.

No, it doesn't; it states, 'Representatives and direct Taxes shall be
apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union,
according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to
the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term
of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.'

It doesn't say a word about blacks or whites (although it does mention untaxed
Indians).

And that clause no longer applies, because it was removed by a later
amendment. So: a) the Constitution does _not_ and never _did_ say that blacks
count as 3/5 of a person; and b) the clause not counting slaves and those
serving life prison sentences for purposes of representation has been deleted.

> I wouldn't make the mistake of pretending that the Constitution is a perfect
> document.

Of course it's not perfect. It's a damn sight better than what we've got now
though.

------
em3rgent0rdr
The porn on the burner phone trip back seemed to defuse the agents. So maybe a
strategy could be to have all your important work be encrypted, but have the a
decoy boot which you reluctantly unlock after acting all nervous which
contains legal porn in an open browser.

------
Havoc
Yip. Traveling to the US is ironically the one place where I'd be concerned
about my rights & freedom. Their tourist harassment force really needs to
relax.

~~~
hackits
Ironically we have a company memo a couple of weeks back advising all
employees if traveling to the US to wipe all data on their laptops (Even paid
for new SSD's), and download everything via the cloud when we arrive over VPN.

I think the guys and I just cleared out as much stuff as possible and then had
to images on the server (clean) and (business).

~~~
Havoc
That's pretty intense. What line of business is that in?

~~~
hackits
Defense Contracts (back then). Ironically the Employer at the time didn't
really pay that well and I moved over to doing web-dev work that was resulted
in my wages doubling over night.

------
rwoodley
Hmm... coming from the Chaos conference. Refuses to answer questions. Has a
ton of equipment. Resides in Romania. And, get this: already involved in a
terror hoax that shut every school in LA!!
[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3367044/Maine-
colleg...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3367044/Maine-college-
drop-21-center-hoax-terrorist-threat-emails-New-York-Las-Vegas-issue-
subpoenas-former-student-claims-knows-origin-posts.html)

What a sense of entitlement.

Seems like the TSA was doing their job.

~~~
vorpalhex
Certainly their job isn't to illegally deny him his right to representation or
confiscate without returning his headphones?

The CC conference is hardly some blackhat meetup. Likewise, Romania is by no
means our enemy.

So a guy, who has followed the law entirely, coming from a friendly country
from a well known meeting, should be denied his basic legal rights and have
his equipment confiscated... why exactly? What law did he break? How did TSA
(or what you actually mean in this case, the CBP) "save us" from this
gentleman?

------
jimnotgym
Wow a page full of horrifying border control experiences. Perhaps all those
people who like to say Schengen free movement is a bad idea might want to
reconsider?

~~~
throwanem
Perhaps we in the US simply need to rein in our border guards, and have done
for quite a long time. The experience of other nations proves it is possible
to arrive at a satisfactory medium between the extremes of Schengen and Stasi.
I'd hoped under Obama we'd do so, but lots of people hoped for lots of things
under Obama that didn't happen. Under Trump it doesn't seem likely we'll
improve on the current situation; if anything, I'd expect it will get worse.
But perhaps the man will surprise us.

------
orbitingpluto
Why would you cross _any_ border with electronics with data on them?
Especially if you went to 33C3? Especially in this climate?

Why didn't you just SSH everything? You can easily resync your contacts/data
on your phone after you cross the border. You can keep the few you must have
on the recently reset phone. If you travel often, why don't you have a second
phone for just this to save you time?

I'd think most of us have tech junk piling up. It's less effort to reset or
have a 'travel drive' than top go through all the paperwork to (maybe) get
stuff back.

Maximum laziness. If customs asks you to unlock your phone, nothing gets you
through quicker then quick unquestioning compliance. (Of course the current
climate is stupid and needs to change.)

~~~
cpayne
I travel with my wife and 2 kids. I have NOTHING! And yet, I am hyper aware of
how I might be perceived.

It's one thing to fight the good fight! And its another to poke the bear.

I don't agree with your "maximum laziness", perhaps the author was arrogant?
Or ignorance?

I love the idea of porn on a burner phone, but even then... (Legal) porn has a
very different meaning in different countries. The author is really playing
with fire.

Scott Adams (Dilbert guy) suggested a few months ago a "Better Surrender
Technique"[1]. Surely this could be applied to the U.S. Customs...

[1] [http://blog.dilbert.com/post/147192672916/better-
surrender-t...](http://blog.dilbert.com/post/147192672916/better-surrender-
technique)

~~~
orbitingpluto
When I said maximum laziness, I tend to think of things in maximizing the
expected value of my time.

Crossing the border with $3-4k in electronics? Say there's a 5% chance they
demand passwords & access. I don't want some nosepicker TSA agent going
through my stuff. Refusal to give access means I lose it.

So E(X) is $150-200 worth of my time. That means an old i5 laptop. If I need
anything I can grab an SSH key off the web somewhere that lets me get another
SSH key somewhere else...

Plus, you're more at risk of your stuff being stolen when traveling anyway.
You shouldn't be risking all of your data getting taken away for good. Even if
you comply, that doesn't mean they won't take everything away from you. That
raises the potential loss significantly.

And fuck Dilbert. I bet that guy has late stage syphilis by now. He's becoming
increasingly deranged and disconnected from reality. Oh, the irony.

------
nraynaud
USA: make East Germany great again.

------
anondon
Genuinely curious if anyone here experienced something similar (being asked to
unlock all your devices) and if so how often?

~~~
psybin
It's standard. All people who are taken aside by customs in the US are given a
standard form which asks for all passwords and keys for all devices they own.
This is so they can immediately use the content on them to reject you from the
country. It's presented to you in such a way that you are to believe you have
no option but to fill out the form. You're offered the ability to talk to your
embassy, but are told that is a useless opportunity that won't get you
anything of value.

~~~
0xffff2
Since no one is explicitly saltating it, this only applies to non-citizens,
right? What's the process when a U.S. citizen is "taken aside"? I would
categorically tell them to fuck off. Do I face jail time instrad of refused
entry?

~~~
ubernostrum
In general, a US citizen can be detained for some time, interrogated and
searched in an unpleasant fashion, have property they carry with them seized,
and be subjected to (illegal, but it happens regardless) retaliatory
prosecution under nuisance-type charges for being uncooperative or for being
perceived to challenge the authority of the CBP employee, but cannot be denied
entry to the United States.

~~~
angry_octet
But you can get added to the no fly list, which is effectively the same thing,
as no carrier will take you. (You have to fly to e.g. Canada and cross at a
land crossing.)

------
dirkg
So if a friend or family member from Europe wants to visit, they shouldn't
travel with their personal laptops, phones etc?

All this talk of 'keep your data on a private vpn server and ssh' is so far
outside of what a normal person can do its ridiculous. I understand the
concerns but 99.999999% of people aren't even aware of these things.

And yet they can be arrested, detained indefinitely, and much much worse, for
no reason whatsoever, and have their devices confiscated at the very least -
and this isn't just a possibility now (as in its possible a black hole will
spontaneously emerge and swallow us all) but a very likely probability.

So what do we do? Not have any visitors, never travel?

------
aestetix
Why do we only hear stories about this from the US and not from China or
Russia?

~~~
Asooka
Russia aren't interested in pointless security theatre, if they're interested
in you, you just wake up at an enhanced interrogation facility, or you have
all your stuff searched without anyone notifying you. Both also have tighter
controls on what gets posted. I'd say Russia also have a big interest in
appearing better than the USA, so they can just tell their citizens: "Look at
the kind of shit they do in the USA; while when you enter our great country of
Russia, you just come in peacefully". Back in the day part of anti-USA
propaganda was "USA treats blacks in horrific ways, we treat everyone
equally".

~~~
mjolk
I think it ultimately comes down to the type of person working in airport
security -- in Russia, you interact with police or military affiliated staff
when you "enjoy" special attention. In the US, you're dealing with a very
numerous staff of people without special training being paraded as a type of
"elite security" for the country.

Anecdotally, at the US border, I've had TSA deny a small wooden children's toy
because they got drunk on a fiction that I could break it or combine it with
other items to make some sort of weapon (a ridiculous idea), and, on another
instance, deny a carabiner because they believed I could use it as a sort of
"brass knuckles" (also ridiculous and demonstrative that none of the involved
parties were even passingly familiar with punching (as a carabiner would
simply cut into the puncher's hand)). At the Russian border, I misheard an
important question and answered incorrectly, and the treatment was
professional and grounded in reality (confirmation of the type of work I do,
my documents, and my purpose for being in the country). On the American side,
the workers have big imaginations and are incentivized to invent things to
catch. On the Russian side, they're looking for suspicious outliers.

------
aaronmdjones
I was wondering why I could not resolve cock.li from where I am right now; and
thought this may be related, but it turns out the DNSSEC signatures have
expired[1] so my resolver is rejecting the answers.

[1] [http://dnsviz.net/d/cock.li/dnssec/](http://dnsviz.net/d/cock.li/dnssec/)

~~~
gexcolo
This is probably because I had set up DNSSEC on my nameservers, but my
registrar doesn't yet support DNSSEC for .li. I plan on moving to another
registrar once the domain is closer to expiry. I guess I'll try to do
something sooner than that to remove the DNSSEC entries that my nameserver is
returning.

------
dirkg
TSA, HS and Border protection are a bunch of unqualified, uneducated,
underpaid thugs put in a position of absolute power with zero consequences,
and rewarded for every 'criminal' they catch. What exactly do you think will
happen?

These are people whose dream job is becoming a cop and being allowed to wield
lethal force on anyone with zero questions.

The best part is most everyone in this country is so brainwashed they'll
actually support this because it keeps us 'great'.

------
beezischillin
Oh, awesome.

I'm planning to go visit my business partner in Texas in October, now I'm
having serious doubts about the whole trip. (I am dual nationality, Hungarian
and Romanian and I have a Hungarian passport which, theoretically, allows me
to enter under the Visa Waiver program). By the way, I always travel with my
Hungarian passport, because people at the border DO treat you differently. If
you're on Romanian papers, you face way more harassment, more waiting and in
general it's a lot more of a struggle.

I find it incredibly obnoxious that the only who are affected by this entire
BS are the people who, I'm quite sure, are not planning to do acts of
terrorism, in fact, has anyone noticed that the ones who do are the only ones
this sh _t never managed to stop?

Btw, travelling within the EU has gotten a bit more annoying, too. When I left
the UK at the beginning of April, last year, I pretty much got through without
any issues, they haven't even bothered to look at my passport. I've not been
searched, harassed, stolen from by border officials, etc., however in
November, I've harassed, scanned, made to take my shoes off (your poison,
brother), scanned to sh_t, and to top it off, the agent who was scanning my
backpack stole out of it (2 PS4 video games, worth 20 quid, really?).

I'm planning trips to US, Germany, Austria, Ukraine and France this year,
however based on experience from last year and now this, I'm pretty much
questioning if I should by now.

I would've wanted to bring some of my photography equipment with me on these
trips, so how risky would you think it would be to travel (for example to the
US), if I had a mirrorless camera on me (Sony A6000), two batteries, 5 lenses,
a tripod, a 13" laptop and two phones (always prefer to have a backup while
traveling abroad)?

Background info: I have no convictions, I don't do drugs, I haven't been
arrested, I don't attend security conferences and in fact, I'm generally a
nobody.

~~~
snuze
You should have nothing to worry about. Just follow directions and be
cooperative. The people at the border get off on authority. Don't give them a
reason to harass you.

~~~
beezischillin
I try to be the nice to anyone in similar situations and not to obstruct stuff
because we all have better things to do than to argue over stupid stuff at the
border. Thanks for the information, you kinda put me at ease!

------
mhomde
Question, say that I travel with an reset telephone, can you be forced to
"install" it, complete setup and enter account information so it syncs it with
your icloud/google/microsoft acocunt?

~~~
nraynaud
the issue is: "do you want to cross this border or not?". If you want to
cross, unless it's your country, you have to comply with everything, without
any oversight or appeal. You're outside of every single Constitutional
protection, in an international zone.

------
nodamage
Is this person a US citizen?

~~~
lolikoisuru
Yes, he is. Tho he moved to Romania last year.

------
finid
_All of my devices are encrypted. Though I 'll be doing some key rotation as a
result of this, I'm confident none of the devices will be able to be
decrypted._

That's what I always advice folks to do.

~~~
finid
Kali Linux has a nuke option for Luks-encrypted devices [1]. Just not sure if
that patch has been updated.

[1]: [http://linuxbsdos.com/2014/01/09/a-kali-linux-cryptsetup-
pat...](http://linuxbsdos.com/2014/01/09/a-kali-linux-cryptsetup-patch-that-
can-nuke-an-encrypted-disk/)

------
tmaly
I was flying from Indiana back to New York last week. I got flagged for a
search because they said my bag had some residue.

Utter BS I have travelled with the bag for over 20 years.

On the plane I was talking with the person next to me. I told her it was all
security theater and she could not believe I could say that.

~~~
brokenmachine
Any cash from your wallet would set off those ion scan detectors as well,
since it has probably at some point come in contact with other cash that has
at some point in time come in contact with drugs.

They are ridiculously oversensitive to the point of being useless.

The lady on the plane probably has no original thoughts beyond what Fox News
has told her.

------
paradite
Related discussions on border control:

U.S. government begins asking foreign travelers about social media

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13242620](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13242620)

~~~
gexcolo
I'm the author of the OP's post. When I left the U.S. one of the questions
that I was asked (that I refused to answer) was whether I used any social
media and what the accounts were. The sites that they listed as examples were
Facebook and WhatsApp, which I found particularly interesting.

------
pjc50
Reports of people being denied entry for political reasons even though they
should be guaranteed entry:
[https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/1/21/1623180/-Canadian...](https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/1/21/1623180/-Canadians-
French-British-Denied-Entry-to-the-United-States-to-attend-Protest-March)

(yes, it's dailykos, I'm sure there will be a claim of fake news)

~~~
andrewpi
Legally there is no such thing as 'guaranteed entry' to the US except for
citizens. Even possessing a visa doesn't guarantee entry.

------
RichardHeart
I don't foresee any event which would cause the right to be free from
unreasonable searches at the border to be acquired. I guess the only hope is
the supreme court?

~~~
mjolk
He runs services for 4chan that were used to send threats. Unreasonable is
hard to quantify, but to be careful, this shouldn't be confused with a routine
traveller.

------
dman
Wonder if I can get TSA to do data recovery for some HDDs that I have that
crashed.

~~~
kps
Hah. A couple years ago I flew across the border with a suitcase full of
9-track tapes. I did get a TSA inspection notice, but I strongly doubt they
read them — I'm sure it was just a “WTF is _that_?” on the baggage x-ray.

------
Fiahil
I wonder, would it be possible to ship sensible devices through another medium
(fedex?) instead of taking them through border security? Sure it would be
expensive, but at least you don't get confiscated $2k worth of electronics
because your name sounds funny.

------
loydb
We're heading to Italy in the Spring (from the US). I'll buy a cheap
chromebook the week we leave, never use anything but incognito mode, and we'll
rent phones in Italy once we're there.

------
london888
US CBP and others often seem to see themselves as a kind of Special Forces
detachment.

------
maerF0x0
What does one do if they dont have a lawyer's number on hand?

------
arnon
Terrifying

------
known
Facism?

------
isuckatcoding
CBP is cancer.

------
lolikoisuru
That title is editorialized. Cock.li is not an anonymous email server, it's a
regularemail service.

~~~
rdslw
This makes it even more interesting.

Also this creates us cool insight how to do them DOS: let's bring old hdd/sdd
drives with random on it, and let them spend their CPU to break it. Sensible
recycle for the environment and freedom.

~~~
throws9001
Probably they are not really after the data here. This is way to intimidate
people and to discourage others from participant in projects which are not
appreciated by the US officials.

This kind of publicity is actually beneficial for the officials. More people
see what kind of trouble you maybe get into should you start contributing to
Tor or other similar projects.

~~~
stryk
IIRC, wasn't Tor originally either funded by, or some sort of results of a
project by, the US Navy?

~~~
compuguy
Yes, and DARPA also contributed:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tor_(anonymity_network)#Histor...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tor_\(anonymity_network\)#History)

------
pcardh0
Is there something more to the story? I travel with laptops and iPads all the
time. Never been stopped.

~~~
gorbachev
You're not on a Government watch list.

Start working on Tor, LavaBit, Wikileaks or any other technology initiative
the Government sees as a risk, and see what happens. Alternatively you could
also start acting as a publisher of leaked Government documents.

~~~
angry_octet
And in MAGA land, probably many other thought crimes. Like, going to a women's
rights march.

~~~
shrimp_emoji
You've got it wrong; it's the regressive left who convicts people of thought
time. In "MAGA land", you're free to piss the left off in defiance of their
byzantine schemes of political correctness.

~~~
angry_octet
CBP are known to be resoundingly pro-Trump. It was a great example of
perverting their authority to discriminate against views they don't like.

The next step will be to mark NGOs as having 'foreign influence'. Pretty soon
RT'ing Amnesty International or the EFF will exclude you from government or
sub-contractor employment. Just look at what happens in Russia.

------
WildUtah
This story inspired me to get my own @cocaine.ninja email address. I'll be
putting it on my resume and all official bank or government correspondence
from now on.

------
beegeezuz
I was going to visit Defcon this year for the first in my life, never been to
USA before. I think I'll take a rain check.

