
Why I'm Moving My Business From San Francisco To St. Louis - j0ncc
http://needwant.com/p/im-moving-san-francisco-st-louis/
======
timr
The current San Francisco influx is unsustainable. If you're somewhere else in
the world and thinking about coming here to do a startup, I wish I could
convince you to change your mind.

San Francisco is incredibly expensive. Rents have shot up by ~50% since 2008,
office space is following the same trend, and competition for (even mediocre)
programmers is intense. Worse, a lot of the cultural diversity that made San
Francisco interesting has been driven out by the high prices -- it's a much
more homogenous city than a few years ago, where mom-and-pop shops and other
neighborhood amenities have been replaced by places selling $10 "artisinal
grilled cheese" sandwiches and "mixology" bars where you can buy your choice
of $15 cocktail. SF feels increasingly like a city for wealthy yuppies,
because...it _is_ a city for wealthy yuppies. Living here on anything less
than a good engineer's salary is becoming a tall order.

Which brings us to a very important point for all the young programmer dudes:
when you all crowd into the same tiny city and bid up the rents into the
stratosphere, your available dating pool shrinks to a puddle (yet another
consequence of the skewed gender balance in tech. sigh.) All the pour-over
coffee in the world doesn't make you happy when you can't get a date, and
those artisan cocktails are far less cute when you're jockeying for position
at the bar in a crowded room full of guys. If you're a 20-something male
programmer looking for a date in SF, I feel badly for you. Hope you like BART,
because you're going to Oakland (if you're lucky!)

Once upon a time it was only a mildly bad decision to locate your startup in
San Francisco, but you could justify it with the appeal of a diverse,
cosmopolitan city. Right now, there's a very real financial penalty (rents,
salaries, taxes), and the cultural benefits are waning. There are a lot of
great cities in the US, and on the internet, you can work from anywhere. Try
those instead.

~~~
pkinsky
>Which brings us to a very important point for all the young programmer dudes:
when you all crowd into the same tiny city and bid up the rents into the
stratosphere, your available dating pool shrinks to a puddle (yet another
consequence of the skewed gender balance in tech. sigh.) All the pour-over
coffee in the world doesn't make you happy when you can't get a date, and
those artisan cocktails are far less cute when you're jockeying for position
at the bar in a crowded room full of guys. If you're a 20-something male
programmer looking for a date in SF, I feel badly for you. Hope you like BART,
because you're going to Oakland (if you're lucky!)

So what you're saying is San Francisco is now highly optimized for
homosexuals? (part of why I want to move there from Boston, to be honest)

~~~
auctiontheory
This is totally wrong. Yes SF has a ridiculous cost of living, but it still
has an amazing ratio of single women to straight guys. Unlike the Peninsula,
you do not need to be rich to meet and date attractive women in the City.

If you are an employed (white?) guy who can't get a date in SF (not to be
confused with Palo Alto), you need to get out more, or just get on okC.
There's a whole lot more to the City than yuppie bars in SOMA or the Marina.

~~~
davidw
Like anywhere, it can help to stand out a bit, and being a straight white guy
without tons of money who works with computers is about as far from 'standing
out' as you can get in that area, from my experience. I was a lot happier from
that point of view when I got out of there and moved to Italy, where I ended
up meeting and marrying a very smart and beautiful woman.

On the subject of "gay", something that I liked about the bay area was that
gay is pretty common, and of course accepted and so it's just something that
_is_ , rather than someone's "defining attribute", so it's not this big deal.
That's how things should be.

------
howradical
Former STL startup founder here (slicehost). We were from St Louis, so
starting the business here made sense and gave us several distinct advantages
(cheap power, data center space, etc).

For startups, it's currently an ideal place IMO. There are quality people here
doing whatever it takes to help people get a business started. Money? They can
help. Space? They can help. Introductions? They can help. A low cost of living
gives you plenty of time to figure things out. Throw in a ton of good
restaurants, a decent art/music scene, a couple of good universities and you
have something worth serious consideration. Biggest downsides are weather
(winters are chilly) and you need a car.

------
carsongross
> If you’re trying to bootstrap, being based in San Francisco is awful.

Especially if you have a family. I rented a four bedroom house in a great
neighborhood in Sacramento that was a bike ride from Midtown for $2900/mo. We
ended up buying a bigger house in the same neighborhood for even _less_ per
month. No commute, food is cheap, etc. The cost savings are enormous, and I'm
sure it's more expensive than St. Louis...

Yep:

[http://www.bestplaces.net/cost-of-living/sacramento-
ca/st.-l...](http://www.bestplaces.net/cost-of-living/sacramento-ca/st.-louis-
mo/50000)

The trick outside the Bay Area, if you are consult-strapping, is keeping the
contracts coming in. Probably better in areas like St. Louis than in Sac.

~~~
slm_HN
I know this isn't exactly the best metric, but the demand for programmers in
St. Louis seems very low. When I look at Craigslist I see a couple Java jobs,
a couple PHP jobs and even one godforsaken VB.net job. Even Jeff Atwood
doesn't use VB.net.

So I'm doubtful that it would be easier to keep the contracts coming in while
in St. Louis.

~~~
thecoffman
As a coder living in St. Louis, I can say that this hasn't been my experience
at all. There is an exceptionally high demand for coders around here. Barely a
week goes by without someone trying to poach good programmers. Its not
necessarily all sexy startups, but there is an excellent market for
programmers in general.

We have a fairly good startup scene (though obviously nothing on SF) and a
large number of more traditional corporate employers of programmers like
Express Scripts, Monsanto, Wells Fargo, Scottrade, Ameren, Charter, Anheuser
Busch, Boeing, and Northrop Grumman. There is also an exceptionally active
biotechnology scene here.

~~~
doorhammer
I'm hoping this is the case in a year or so, when I plan on moving back to Stl
from Atlanta. I know a few guys doing C# and f# work in stl. They seem to
think prospects are pretty good.

------
randallsquared
I was in St. Louis for Strange Loop 2013, and I was pretty astonished at how
nice (and uncrowded) the downtown was. I asked about it at
[http://www.reddit.com/r/StLouis/comments/1mlum2/whats_wrong_...](http://www.reddit.com/r/StLouis/comments/1mlum2/whats_wrong_with_st_louis/)
and got some interesting responses. The "what's wrong with..." was in the
sense of "surely it can't be as great as it seems here?", by the way.

~~~
hapless
Most midwestern cities have no pedestrian traffic downtown. That is perfectly
normal across much of America.

In a typical midwestern city, anyone who can afford it commutes to the central
business district by car. They live, shop, and eat in the suburbs. They use
their cars for all of these activities.

The C.B.D. ends up deserted at night when the office workers leave. Any
successful night-time businesses have parking, in order to attract suburban
customers. There is little reason for anyone to be on foot.

The reddit thread mentions very specific districts where you find pedestrians.
I imagine those areas have excellent central parking, and deliberately-created
"walkable" areas for browsing. A great development pattern to bring life back
to deserted downtowns.

~~~
randallsquared
"In a typical midwestern city, anyone who can afford it commutes to the
central business district by car."

And, as I was walking about at rush hour, I expected to see a lot of car
traffic, but the streets were practically empty of autos. The nearby freeway
across the river was quite busy, however. I think the reddit thread had good
things to say about the former decline of the city center.

------
zinssmeister
And so it begins. The Bay Area is starting to lose some of its talent to other
areas (in an already tight talent market). This is just one example and I ran
into a few others in the past 2 months, that are in a gtfo state. I have also
tried to hire good people from other areas of the country that used to be
interested in SF but are no longer seeing it as a nice place to actually live,
because they too can do the math.

------
petercooper
This is one of the things I'm jealous of America for coming from a British
perspective: that is, a wide variety of cities being technologically advanced
and good for startups, tech and businesses generally. Think Austin, think
Raleigh-Durhan, think Philadelphia, think Seattle..

Everything in the UK is so grotesquely skewed towards London when it comes to
modern tech. Some other cities aren't entirely horrible (Manchester, say) and
some have a technically progressive air going for them (Brighton) but it
sounds like even St Louis as a relatively small US city has more going for it
in one place than most top tier British cities that aren't London (say Leeds,
Nottingham, or Birmingham).

~~~
joshAg
just to throw some figures at you about how big st. louis is or isn't:

> As of the 2010 census, the population was 319,294, and a 2012 estimate put
> the population at 318,172,[6] making it the 58th-largest U.S. city in 2012.
> The metropolitan St. Louis area, known as Greater St. Louis (CSA), is the
> 19th-largest metropolitan area in the United States with a population of
> 2,900,605.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Louis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Louis)

~~~
dionidium
And I'll be the annoying St. Louisan who feels compelled to put these numbers
into some context for what feels like the billionth time.

St. Louis City is entirely independent from the surrounding St. Louis County
and covers an exceptionally small area by the standards of most big cities
(~66 sq/mi). Some similar cities have addressed this by merging with their
surrounding county (Indianapolis, for example, which is about 368 sq/mi), but
even those that haven't (e.g. Kansas City) still cover a much larger portion
of their region (316 sq/mi for KC).

It's very easy to exit the city-proper in St. Louis and not feel at all as
though you've left the core of the city. The inner-ring suburbs are quite
urban and, while the distinction between them and the City itself is the
source of much local posturing, it's a misleading delineation if you're trying
to figure out just how big St. Louis really is.

(As a side note, this way of dividing up the region also has a significant
effect on the City's infamous crime statistics, for reasons that should be
pretty obvious with a little bit of thought. That is to say, if you define
almost any city as only its most inner core, then you're going to end up with
much higher crime rates than if you include its suburbs. And if you're
comparing one city that doesn't include its suburbs with cities that
predominantly do, then, well, you get the idea.)

In other words, the larger MSA/CSA numbers more accurately reflect the
relative size of both St. Louis's urban core and the surrounding region.

~~~
jaiball
> (As a side note, this way of dividing up the region also has a significant
> effect on the City's infamous crime statistics, for reasons that should be
> pretty obvious with a little bit of thought. That is to say, if you define
> almost any city as only its most inner core, then you're going to end up
> with much higher crime rates than if you include its suburbs. And if you're
> comparing one city that doesn't include its suburbs with cities that
> predominantly do, then, well, you get the idea.)

This applies to many cities in the Northeast as well. The cities are tiny
compared to cities in other parts of the country.

------
ChrisNorstrom
If you're looking for "San Francisco" feel, crowd, look, shops, and trendy
neighborhoods in St. Louis. Go to the "Central West End" District. If there's
one thing St. Louis can be proud of it's that district. That whole area from
Forest Park (bigger than Central Park in New York) including the neighborhoods
around it, Barnes Jewish Hospital, Children's Hospital Complex, GasLamp
District, Central West End is really nice.

~~~
doorhammer
I miss tower grove park, forest park, and the botanical gardens most about
having left stl. Partly because I could see the botanical gardens from the
balcony on the back of my apt, though

------
clavalle
I love St. Louis. Certain parts have a European feel that no other city
outside of Canada has. There are a lot of extremely bright, hard working
people there too. It is odd. It is a city that seems to not know how much
untapped talent it has.

That being said, there are parts that are rundown and sketchy. There are huge
problems with drugs like methamphetamine outside of the 'normal' urban drug
issues that most cities have. In addition, from what I understand, the
Missouri tax system is _terrible_ (property tax on many large items you own
like cars in addition to your homestead tax and sales tax on top of income
tax).

~~~
doorhammer
There are definitely some bad parts of st. louis, but I have to say, the one
main rule: stay out of east st. louis. It's pretty bad news.

Luckily, if you're in the missouri section of saint louis, you'd have to
stumble pretty badly to accidentally cross the Mississippi and end up there.

~~~
icantthinkofone
To be clear, East St. Louis is not part of St. Louis and isn't even in the
same state.

~~~
doorhammer
Yeah. But how the city is technically setup doesn't stop people from being
confused and stopping there.

I'm not saying that east st. louis is terrible as an indictment of st. louis.
I love stl. I can't wait to move back. I've just met a lot of random folks who
don't realize that east st. louis is different, and stop by.

Luckily, if you stay on the west side of the river, you're pretty much fine. I
lived in the city near the botanical gardens for awhile and it was great.

There are sketchy places in St. Louis itself, but they're not as bad as east
st. louis, and that's like just about any other city I've been.

------
jack-r-abbit
Right now it is noon in St. Louis and 19 degrees.

Right now it is 10:00 in SF and 53 degrees.

I think weather plays a large part in why people like to live in the Bay Area.
Many refer to the high cost of living here as the "sun tax." As I sit in my
office wearing shorts and a t-shirt, I can't even fathom living in St. Louis.

~~~
zinssmeister
"sun tax" is cheaper in Texas. It's zero as in 0% income tax.

~~~
mjn
The average property tax rate is 4x California's, though. On the other hand,
the average property value is lower. How all those factors combine depends on
your income/location/etc. The group that comes out worst is the middle class
in cheaper areas, around 40th-70th percentile incomes. If you make mid 5
figures, and live in a $150k house, your tax situation would be better
Bakersfield than in Houston.

~~~
saryant
For single-income household of two making $55k, the annual difference shakes
out to about $500. Not an insignificant sum but also not a huge difference.

But your comparison is between Bakersfield, a medium-sized city whose largest
employer is Kern County, and Houston, the world capital of energy and a major
player in shipping, healthcare and aerospace.

Which city is more likely to actually pan out a $55k job for our hypothetical
middle-class family? Houston (median income, $58k) or Bakersfield ($38k)?
Where is that barely higher tax burden buying better schools? (I'll take any
of Houston's suburbs on that count)

I grew up all over California but I've lived in Texas for the last nine years,
I've seen the difference. Texas certainly isn't perfect but our cities are
actually affordable.

------
dugmartin
The last picture is of the City Musuem. If you are ever near St Louis with
kids you have to go there. It is one of the coolest places I've ever been to.

[http://www.citymuseum.org/site/](http://www.citymuseum.org/site/)

~~~
colanderman
You don't need kids to have fun there.

~~~
dugmartin
I think I might have had more fun than my kids did. Climbing outside in rebar
tubes 40 feet above the ground is a lot of fun. We didn't do the 7 story slide
though - we walked up there but the line was not moving at all.

We are going back this summer (I live in New England but go home to Southern
Illinois every summer for a visit).

------
diziet
This is all great, but if you're building a company focused on earning money
by doing sales (especially one that has you interacting with other tech
companies), the amount of clients you can meet face to face in St. Louis (and
the size of the deals) is not something I'd suspect to be competitive with
what you'd find in SF.

~~~
smcnally
This is where the rubber hits the road. Staff talent -- especially creative,
tech, sales, marketing -- can be identified and managed as a distributed
workforce. Most clients need face time. Most prospects need face time before
they are clients. It's anachronistic, but mostly the way of the world. I'd
love to hear differently.

------
jskonhovd
St. Louis is great. I wouldn't live there. It's very similar, at least in my
experience, to my hometown of Memphis. The Italian food is obviously better,
but we have barbecue. :)

America has a lot of great cities. They all don't have the technical talent
level that San Francisco has, but good culture is not monopolized in San
Francisco.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
> The Italian food is obviously better, but we have barbecue.

St. Louis (and much of the midwest/south) also has a very high obesity rate
compared to SF.

I would visit Memphis as a kid living in Mississippi. I could at least say
that Memphis was better than anywhere in Mississippi :)

------
california_roll
Welcome to St Louis!

There is a very active Meetup group for entrepreneurs here - StartLouis.
Please check us out!

------
aliston
St. Louis is cheap, but it's cheap for a reason. If you think 6th and Market
is bad, take a stroll through East St. Louis. It has the 3rd highest murder
rate in the country. Violent crime is on the rise. [1] Basically, it's one of
the most dangerous cities in the country.

If that sort of thing doesn't bother you, then you'd probably be better off
just moving your startup to Oakland and maintaining a connection to the Bay
Area startup network. Or, if it does, move to a more modern, safer city in the
South that still has a low cost of living without many of the economic
problems of the rust belt cities (and better weather to boot!).

[1] [http://www.nbcnews.com/business/most-dangerous-cities-
americ...](http://www.nbcnews.com/business/most-dangerous-cities-
america-832351)

~~~
inspectahdeck
Having grown up in St. Louis, I will say that the statistics about violence
are highly skewed. Yes, the rates of violent crime in East/North St. Louis are
extremely high. However, it's not terribly difficult to avoid these areas
(unless you're really into strip clubs). The suburbs and most of the rest of
the city are no less safe than comparable areas in the bay area.

~~~
cgore
I grew up in the area too, and moved back a few years ago. People often give
me weird looks when I say I live on the Illinois side, assuming I'm living
next to Pop's or something. The Illinois side is all really nice farmland if
you just go a few miles out from the city. That is one of the nice things
about Saint Louis. I grew up on several acres of land, my dad was able to
commute to downtown in less than 30 minutes, and he was able to afford that on
a mid-level government employee salary.

------
nilsimsa
Why do you have to live in San Francisco city itself. There are many places in
the Bay Area more affordable than San Francisco.

~~~
zobzu
they're pretty close to the price of SF. else, please mention one that is less
than an hour of commute away.

~~~
mahyarm
You can get a 2bed for $1k in east bay richmond :p

------
geebee
You're reminding me of a quote from Patti Smith: it's about New York, but it
could easily be about SF as well...

[http://gothamist.com/2010/05/03/patti_smith_suggests_finding...](http://gothamist.com/2010/05/03/patti_smith_suggests_finding_anothe.php)

"New York has closed itself off to the young and the struggling. But there are
other cities. Detroit. Poughkeepsie. New York City has been taken away from
you. So my advice is: Find a new city."

------
wj
I moved to STL last year for family reasons. I had been struggling a bit to
figure out things to do so the list in this post is much appreciated.

Good luck with your startup!

------
beachstartup
if i had a business based in SF and wanted to move, i would move to west LA.

actually, i already did that, years ago.

SF is a pain in the ass to live in, even if you have lots of money.

~~~
anandvc
How do you like West LA so far?

~~~
beachstartup
i live in santa monica, which in my mind is like an improved san francisco,
and an improved los angeles, combined. i can always see a tiny twinge of
jealousy when i tell current-SFers that i live in SM now. :)

it's not perfect but it's good for me. i have an amazing view from both home
and the office, i can walk OR drive OR cab to get
food/coffee/clothes/entertainment, and have access to the rest of LA if i
choose to leave the sm/westside bubble.

------
auctiontheory
St. Louis may have the best chess scene in the US, or perhaps second only to
NYC. Among other things, it hosts the US Championships every year. And Magnus
Carlsen has played there. And Anna Sharevich lives there. (I.e. a lot more
than the "Hall of Fame.")

------
mathrawka
I used to live in St. Louis and worked at a startup that was located in
downtown (right on Washington Ave) 13 years ago. Back then downtown was dead
after 5pm, as everyone left to go home back in the suburbs and not much of a
night life in the city.

Recently, I went back to visit for the first time in over 10 years. I was
amazed that there was a night life, and families would go out to eat in the
city! It seems to be turning it self around well, but I am sure there are more
hurdles to make it even safer.

In addition to it being easier to get funding [1], it sounds like St. Louis is
really looking to be a good spot for a startup in the US.

1: [http://archgrants.org/](http://archgrants.org/)

------
mark_l_watson
It is not only rent but other things like higher sales and income tax rates in
California. My wife and I live in the mountains in Central Arizona and the
cost of living is lower than California in many ways.

------
gkoberger
Economics aside, and on a more personal note: it's a shame to lose Jon. He's
one of the kindest, most talented founders (and friends) I've met in SF, and
it's a shame he's leaving.

------
bluesnowmonkey
> 3.8x cheaper than San Francisco. Moving to St Louis is going to almost
> quadruple my company’s runway.

It's inversely proportional to your personal rent? Your company has no
revenue, no employees, no office, no servers, no contractors, no contracts, no
other costs in general? Is that really a company?

I don't think you're moving a business, I think you're just moving.

------
hussong
I wonder what's going to happen to Need/Want's "Designed in San Francisco"
claim. Would "Designed in Saint Louis" work just as well?

------
MetaCards
Long-time lurker, just saw this post about my hometown so I created an
account.

I have a tech business in St. Louis. I love living in St. Louis and will never
live anywhere else.

A few comments:

It is extremely hard to hire\find good programmers. I've posted job ads on
Dice and Craigslist, and received 2 or 3 replies. I don't think I received ONE
reply from Dice. The replies you get are people that can't answer the most
basic questions.

You will HAVE to use a recruiting firm that will try to poach the talent and
you have to search out resumes. It will cost at least $50k for a programmer
that can't even answer the most basic questions in an interview. Fortunately,
I got very lucky and found one of the most kick-ass people on the planet.

In regards to East. St Louis, as other people mentioned, it is NOT in
Missouri, it's in ILLINOIS. The only reason people in St Louis go to East St
Louis is because the bars stop serving at 1:30 or 2AM. If you want to drink
past that, everyone goes to East St. Louis. Either that, or to go to strip
clubs. Given that, if it's a Friday or Saturday night, you'll see a bunch of
other St Louisians over in East St Louis at Pops, or the Oz, or at strip
clubs. It is definitely a bad area though. I've been to East St Louis many
times and have never felt threatened.

The bad part of St Louis is North County. Unless you live there, the only
reason to go there is for drugs. I've never been there, and as far as I know,
you can't drink past 2AM there, and they don't have any strip clubs. I've
driven by there many times, and I knew someone that worked in North County for
years and never had any issues. It's like any other city, there are parts you
don't want to venture through by yourself, late at night.

Unfortunately, I think most of the crime in both E St Louis, and North county,
is local, black on black crime.

Downtown is somewhat desolate. If you want to live downtown, there are some
cool areas like Soulard which is making a come back. Most people live in West
County, South County, St Charles county, etc. I would never live downtown.
Most of the action is outside of downtown. There are good sized office
buildings in Clayton, West County, etc.

In the county areas, there are cops all over the place(which is a good thing).
I've lived in a lot of places, and the bottom line is it's one of the safest
places I've lived.

I read HN all the time, but don't know much about this start-up. Welcome to
St. Louis though! As others mentioned, there are a lot of talented people
here.

------
sabbatic13
The problem with these places is what happens, when you need to hire people to
build your company. The tech world is full of impressionistic statements like
'they have a startup scene,' but when you start getting numbers on available
talent, you'll see you're putting yourself in a bad position.

To take an example where I have better data, people have commented on the
vibrant and growing startup scene in Santiago, Chile. Maybe it is vibrant and
growing, but the total number of people professionally employed in software
development (devs, testers, manager, product managers, etc.) is only about
2000.

Split that 2000 into 50 different companies (and 50 tech companies would often
be held up as proof of viability for the location), eliminate the high
percentage with the wrong skill set for your company, and how likely is it,
really, that you could build an engineering team of 20 and sustain that in the
face of attrition over time?

St. Louis isn't going to have more than a few thousand of the same sort of
people. Most of them are also not products of local universities with strong
engineering programs relevant to most of the kinds of software behind most
tech startups these days. The supply therefore is not growing at a steady rate
or being replenished.

75 startups in one location? What happens, when the half that make it past the
founder stage need to hire 3-4 people? Not only are there only a few available
devs of any skill level available for each, but they all have dozens of
options on the same block.

For startups, a higher percentage of engineers in an area employed by
companies of 50-people or less actually makes hiring harder. In such a
situation, they all have options of more or less equal value, and you have
little to distinguish yourself from the others. The fact that SV has Google,
Yahoo, Mcsft, etc. alongside a ton of mid-sized and smaller companies makes it
easier.

If you've ever tried to recruit for a startup, think about how often you bring
up ownership, autonomy, "startup culture," etc. as selling points? How well
does that work in an environment, when nearly everyone already has that where
they are?

This is just a quick set of reflections, but the overall point I hope is made.
The truth is that staffing your startup is one of the most brutal forms of
competition your business will experience. You're one of many, many players
competing for an extremely scarce resource that very few founders even know
how to identify, qualify, or retain, once they've got them.

If you ever plan on building your company beyond a small team of friends and
local referrals, you should be doing everything you can to stack the deck in
your favor. The Bering Sea may be an expensive and crowded area for gold
prospecting, but you're still more likely to find gold there than in Lake
Michigan.

~~~
lostcolony
That's why you offer relocation.

If a startup has a cool mission, a cool tech stack, -and- operates in an area
with a low cost of living, low congestion, and plenty of culture, art, and
restaurant variety/quality, it can compete quite nicely with yet another
Silicon Valley company when it comes to attracting talent.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Relocation for a startup? If your startup employer fails, you are stuck in a
city far away from your support network. If you chanced a startup in the city
you lived in, at least you could recover quickly, get a new job, whatever.

Relocation can work well for more established companies (and even then, two
body problems often kill that), but it doesn't make sense at all for a semi-
risky startup.

~~~
lostcolony
What happened to all those startups that "need to hire people to build (your)
company", to quote the prior post and argument? I mean, you "have dozens of
options on the same block." Just take a job with one of them.

EDIT: A bit more seriously, and to your argument in particular, that's where
low cost of living comes in your favor. "Hmm, I could take $90k in Silicon
Valley where I will have to be careful with my budget, or I could take $75k in
St. Louis, where I will live comfortably"; why in the world would you accept a
startup in the Valley (thus moving there) given that decision, all other
factors being equal (they're not, but there are plenty in favor of St. Louis,
as this article points out)?

You're showing yourself willing to move (a software dev willing to relocate
will not be short of a job for long; heck, you could always later -look- to
move to the Valley), and you'll be able to sock away funds for emergencies
much more easily..

~~~
seanmcdirmid
You moved for a startup because it was a great fit for your skills, the
startup failed...now what? If there are only a few other startups, what is to
say one will be a good fit? Also, your network isn't fully developed yet,
maybe you've only been in town for 6 months...getting the right job via word
of mouth will be very difficult.

If you don't believe developers are basically exchangeable commodities, then
it is easy to see that we need a very large pool of jobs + a decent support
network to find those jobs.

SF having critical mass of startups and people you already know (they moved
from where you were before) makes it very appealing. SLT has none of that.

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brosco45
SF is all about making money fast for yourself.

~~~
zobzu
and sleeping in your car then. because if you rent, no luck.

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csense
Why relocate instead of hiring remote workers?

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GFK_of_xmaspast
A lot of people say SF/SV/etc is terrible because it's full of Californians,
but I've lived all over the country and known lots of people from lots of
states and I'd rather live among Californians than Missourians or (god forbid)
Texans.

~~~
hippee-lee
I work with a Texan. Really nice guy and smarter then me but he never talks
down to me. He phrases his suggestions as questions and the thicker he lays on
the drawl the more likely it is that his opinion will turn out to be good
advice.

~~~
sophacles
I know a guy like that. He's not a Texan, I don't think that part matters.
He's a retired Chicago cop. I interact with him in the context of volunteer
work for a few organizations locally. I have no idea how he does it, but he'll
walk up, start chatting, have a question or two, maybe relate a musing he was
having, and go on to talk to someone else. Every damn time I find myself doing
his bidding and about an hour realizing that fact. I have no idea how he does
it, other than he's a wizard. He never says "do this", or "i think you should
...". I've seen it work on many other people as well.

One day I'll unlock that superpower.

