
How to Tell a Real 1959 Gibson Les Paul Guitar From a Fake - bookofjoe
https://www.wsj.com/articles/1959-gibson-les-paul-guitar-real-or-fake-jimmy-page-slash-cheap-trick-nashville-11594412649
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qppo
I always heard that the '59s were prized for their PAFs [0] and the aged
mahogany, but I've only ever heard one on a record and never played one
myself. We've come a long way since 1959 in terms of neck dimensions/radii and
modern CNCs can carve out pretty much any shape, rather reliably. Seems weird
to prize since Gibson necks are horrible. But hey, guitarists are weird
people.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAF_(pickup)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAF_\(pickup\))

~~~
silverdemon
They're collectable and valuable because of the association with famous
players in the classic rock era, and the rarity of examples. A perfect copy of
the Mona Lisa would be worth a few $, not a few milion $, even if it were
indistinguishable to the viewer.

Many guitarists fetishize the 59 Les Paul because of the sound. The trick is
that '59 Les Paul might not sound any different objectively, but the musician
knows they are playing an iconic and rare instrument. This can make the
musician play better than usual. Guitarists often attribute this to the "mojo"
in the guitar; the trick is the mojo is in the player's belief.

~~~
elihu
On one hand, I think the 59 Les Paul would be valuable to people who collect
those sorts of rare things regardless of whether they actually intend to play
it.

On the other hand, I could see that for some successful performers, the
purchase could be a sound financial investment if fans are just a bit more
excited about hearing their favorite musician playing a rare instrument live
than they would otherwise be. One might be able to recover the purchase price
of the instrument through increased ticket sales.

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dmcginty
Given that they're offering a $59k reward for their missing ledger I'm curious
if anybody is going to try to make a fake ledger instead of a fake guitar.

~~~
Zhenya
Seems like the price should be much higher as it will validate hundreds of
multi-hundred thousand dollars per each guitar.

Imagine owning this ledger and charging per request for validation.

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bookofjoe
[https://archive.vn/AHyBf#selection-204.1-222.0](https://archive.vn/AHyBf#selection-204.1-222.0)

~~~
sildur
Thanks. I feel like a link to a subscription-only website should be considered
spam.

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analog31
I'm a double bassist, and with a tiny handful of exceptions, the value of a
bass depends on its quality. Maybe because basses are so big and cumbersome,
there are fewer collectors and investors driving prices. And old basses are
usually modernized with no regrets if they are not playable by today's
standards.

~~~
sosborn
Bassists are great because you guys don't get bogged down with traditionalism
like us guitarists. Active pickups? No problem. Solid state amp? No problem.

~~~
analog31
Just don't get us started with bows and rosin. ;-)

~~~
C1sc0cat
I remember about 20 years ago one of our PM's was also a semi pro musician
(violin in a Jazz group) - commenting that his second best bow was worth
£1200-1500.

But he was a fairly high end player as his group had a residency at the
Balmoral during the Edinburgh festival

~~~
analog31
I've been extremely fortunate to get away with using carbon fiber bows, both
for my cello and bass. Then again I'm not a pro-level player. And most of my
arco work is actually arco soloing in a jazz context. Also practicing. Jazz
players are typically encouraged to practice with the bow, as it brings out
flaws in left hand technique.

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Traubenfuchs
Paying for the history of an item instead of its practical properties is
incomprehensible to me. It is peak human ridiculousness. Just like a lot of
"art".

~~~
deelly
So, basically you hate any emotions?

~~~
Traubenfuchs
No. But I don't understand why a perfectly replicated painting by an art
student is worth less than the aged original, I don't understand why new music
instruments that sound better or equal are worth less than their antique
counterparts.

No one can tell the difference, besides by using techniques like a ledger or
scientific analysis. Both can be easily tricked by anyone involved. This means
your perception of those items is strongly colored by completely external
"facts" (rather, assumptions based on your trust into experts, at best). We
could show the countless tourists that want to see her a replicated Mona Lisa
and no one would ever be able to tell. Yet if we'd tell them there'd be at
least a small outroar.

All of this is really off putting. Reminds me of placebo. And being
emotionally invested in sports teams.

~~~
jhayward
> _But I don 't understand why a perfectly replicated painting by an art
> student is worth less than the aged original_

I would suggest that this is because you place no value on the act of
creation, the creative genius that pulls the artifact out of thin air into the
material world. The view you are describing is purely utilitarian.

The counterfeiter is stealing that creative value, without which the artifact
they are manufacturing isn’t possible.

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TrackerFF
Finally a topic I feel very confident on - I've flipped many hundred guitars,
and owned a bunch of "true" vintage ones. Fender Strats from 1957 - 1963,
Gibson Les Pauls from 1957 - 1960 (though no "true" bursts, and probably not
something I'm going to own unless I hit it big...), and tried a bunch of very,
very expensive vintage guitars.

I've seen a bunch of articles the past years, in websites like WSJ, where
they've started to ride the vintage guitars/amps "investment" wagon. I know
the vintage community hates this notion - because for every Joe B that
actually plays the instruments, there are probably 10 collectors that just
stow away the instruments in safe storage.

Furthermore, you need to either be incredibly experienced yourself, or find
some person that really, really knows their sh!t. Fakes can of course be a
huge problem, especially if they're high-end replicas from over the years.

But IMO the biggest risk would be pieces that simply aren't original. There's
quite a difference between an original burst, and some conversion burst. Both
only one of them will yield extraordinary good ROI.

~~~
libertine
>But IMO the biggest risk would be pieces that simply aren't original. There's
quite a difference between an original burst, and some conversion burst. Both
only one of them will yield extraordinary good ROI.

This is what I was going to ask you: what about the modifications?

One quite famous LP is the one from Jimmy Page, and I think that when he
bought it either it came with a wider neck, or he changed it after getting it
- one thing is sure, it wasn't the original neck. Plus he had many other mods.
This would devalue a lot the guitar no?

If that happens, and it belonged to a super star, then it will get the value
as an item from the super star, and not the item itself?

It's just odd the perceived value of collectibles - some people value the
story behind items, others love the story of the item itself, others do it
because they think it's a good investment. But when it comes to guitars,
despite the history of Gibson, I'm pretty sure any '59 LP that reached 2020
must have a hell of a story to tell, with mods or no mods - unless it stood in
a former studio player attic getting dust.

~~~
TrackerFF
Mods, on very old guitars, are almost unavoidable. That's why you see original
parts going for thousands of dollars on Ebay etc.

Often times a pickups has been re-wound, pots have been swapped out, or what
not. If you own a bone stock burst these days, you'll take it to luthiers that
specialize on this kind of stuff - but back in the 70s, people didn't really
give it much thought. Sure, they were valuable and collectible already back
then, but not to the degree we see today - so people just modded / repaired
them without much thought.

If some celeb has owned a guitar, then there's some inherent "bonus" on that -
or at least, the value won't drop.

Now, if it's some regular Burst with no celeb history, that has new pickups
and tuners - then that's probably going to take a good hit on the price.

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ericseppanen
For those that enjoy stories about the early days of electric guitar, I
recommend picking up the book "The Birth of Loud: Leo Fender, Les Paul, and
the Guitar-Pioneering Rivalry That Shaped Rock 'n' Roll" by Ian S. Port. It's
a great story about the first electric guitars and their creators.

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11thEarlOfMar
I learned about Joe Bonamassa when assembling a collection of songs that
represented each of the great players. I went with Blues Deluxe for Joe. Here
he is on that Les Paul:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w86Jym1eZCI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w86Jym1eZCI)

What the hell, here's Jimmy on his, Since I've Been Lovin' You (Bonham finally
oiled his bass pedal):

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZiN_NqT-
Us](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZiN_NqT-Us)

The full collection:

[https://festivalpeak.com/https-medium-com-davisjames-
guitar-...](https://festivalpeak.com/https-medium-com-davisjames-
guitar-1a2b67c0f869)

~~~
cpursley
Great link, thanks!

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catmistake
I met George Wilson, Toolmaker of Williamsburg. He was old when I met him in
the 90's and I don't know if he is still around, but I hope so. He was a
luthier and made some amazing guitars, and I got to play some of them at his
house. He also liked to make Gretsch copies. I am not familiar with the
models, but one I got to play was a large hollow body, perhaps it was known as
a Country Gentleman. Gretsch guitars are highly collectable, and expensive,
which belies the fact that the vintage models were often not made well, and
play terribly. George's copy was perfect right down to the serial number and
stamp on the volume and tone knobs. The only way to know it was a copy is that
no Gretsch was ever made so well, and the fact that George's guitar would have
3-4 times the market value than the original vintage guitar he copied. I was
naive then and I think George took advantage of me. I had a flawless blonde
1989 ES-335 dot, and he talked me into trading him for it for a Bedrock amp
that he wanted to dump, an AC-30 copy. He sold that guitar in less than 2
weeks on consignment and got considerably more than I paid for it new a couple
years earlier. I still have that amp, loaned to a studio, and it has gotten
work on many records over the years. It always sounded better than any
original Vox AC-30, though still faithful to the original sound. But that amp
was never worth nearly as much as that 335 I have been missing ever since, I
doubt even half as much.

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danbmil99
Somehow this reminds me of a recent article about a guy who stole a
Stratovarius.

He played it for the rest of his life and never told anybody what it was.

~~~
kranner
A Stradivarius, but Stratovarius is a nice name for a guitar/violin hybrid!

~~~
rob74
...or for a 1980s symphonic metal band.

Edit: honestly, I first thought "hey, that _would_ be a cool name", then I
wrote the comment above, then I googled it and found out that yes, there is
actually a Finnish metal band founded in 1984 with this name:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratovarius](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratovarius)
But yeah, I guess the name is too good to not be already taken...

~~~
kranner
Oh man, I thought it was familiar.

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neonate
[https://archive.is/lmB9B](https://archive.is/lmB9B)

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ebg13
If you can't tell by the way it sounds, then maybe they're all fake?

~~~
twelvechairs
The quality of the replicas and originals both varied. It is reasonably well
acknowledged now that at least by the end of the "lawsuit era" (in 1977 Gibson
sued the distributor of Ibanez who was the main brand behind them) the
Japanese copies were higher quality than the official product.

There is vale in the name though and particularly when they were still
producing a quality product.

~~~
electricdot
I'm lucky enough to own a Japanese Ibanez from that era. Even though it was
abused badly by previous owners, it's one of the best instruments I've ever
owned.

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m3kw9
Low ball price for sure.

