
A link between video games and unemployment - nabla9
https://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2017/03/economist-explains-24
======
jboggan
Video games become the sole source of agency in many people's lives. This
isn't just for the unemployed, but also for folks stuck in a job where they
feel like they lack control. I couldn't understand at first why my fellow
Googlers found so much time to play video games, but after a couple of months
I understood. Afternoon Halo matches became the highlight of my day, I felt
like I had more choice and responsibility in a 20 minute match than I did the
rest of my programming work.

~~~
kemiller2002
A friend of mine felt the same way. He was undergoing a tragedy in his family,
and he would play video games after returning from the hospital at night. It's
funny, looking at him and talking to him, you'd never think he'd be a huge
video game player, but it really was a source of stress relief. He could focus
his unspent frustrations and hurt into competing online, and the way he
explained it, I think it kept him sane during those times.

It's funny, I can tell how in control of my life by gauging how much I play
games. When I start obsessing about playing games (I like playing them, but
when I feel I have to play them to escape), I know something needs to change
in my life. I'm saying it's that way for everyone, but it really is a great
tool for stress relief for some.

~~~
J-dawg
I haven't been able to find it, but I remember a comment here on HN by a guy
who basically said that gaming saved his life by helping him to zone out
during a period of severe depression.

I guess it's a form of mindfulness, in a way.

~~~
sametmax
That's the exact opposite actually. Nit saying it's a bad thing though. But
it's important to understand that screens are taking your attention away. You
are not in the moment at all.

~~~
jboggan
I agree with that, you are completely taken out of your actual context, or at
least I am.

I used to game really heavily during a pretty terrible period (divorce + grad
school) in an attempt to cope. Of course it actually just made things worse
overall while distracting my brain to make it seem temporarily better, it
diverted a lot of the energy I might have used towards engaging and fixing the
problems.

When I game severely (FPS shooters are my crack) I can get focused for a dozen
hours at a time. My body almost shuts down, I get into a trancelike state and
my metabolism recedes. I forget to eat, I don't get tired. When I finally do
sleep I will wake up the next day and actually have a headache until I play
again for a little while. It was that kind of physical withdrawal that made me
realize long ago how pernicious it was, at least for my particular physiology
and brain. Now I will only play games like that in a social setting, never
alone lest I fall back into that spell.

One time in grad school I stayed up all night gaming and I slept through my
alarm. I missed an exam. That I was proctoring. I went straight to a pawn shop
and sold my console when I realized what I was doing to myself.

~~~
kqr
> I forget to eat, I don't get tired.

Sound like dopamine at play!

------
dimitar
Video games are cheap compared to other entertainment. I can buy a good enough
PC for $400 and I can clock almost an infinite amount of game-time on it with
friends all over the world. Most other activities - playing pool, eating out,
bars, most sports, vacationing - cost a lot more per hour of possible
entertainment.

So if you don't have the money and you have the time you should choose
activities that provide the most entertainment for the least $

Previously unemployed people would watch a lot of TV for affordable
entertainment, an they probably still do it a lot. However video games can be
more cognitively engaging and more social, so they might be actually an
improvement.

~~~
emodendroket
I think it's hard to beat books for economical. But certainly games are in
reach.

~~~
ddebernardy
Are they really? I've never spent more than a few days on a book, but I've
certainly spent well over 300 hours on some video games. I love reading, but
to me books seem quite expensive as an entertainment medium in comparison with
computer games.

~~~
dozzie
...until you realize that we _still_ have this old-fashioned institutions
called _libraries_.

~~~
emodendroket
Uber for books, except you don't have to pay.

------
GuiA
There is an episode of "It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia" where Charlie, a
character who never gets any success in life (a janitor living in a dump of an
apartment, gets rejected by his love interest constantly, abused by his
friends, etc) gets really engrossed in an online videogame. He becomes really
good at it, and exclaims "I'm thriving! I never get to thrive, and I want to
be the guy who thrives for once! It's like when I'm doing good in the game,
I'm doing good in real life!"

It feels like there's an interesting insight there - if you're near the bottom
of ladder in life (in an area with few/no jobs, have a hard time making
friends, have no money for activities, etc), positive feedback loops can be
few and far between, and it is very hard to get a feel for whether you're
actually making progress or not. Work hard in life, and maybe you can reap
some rewards years and years later, or maybe not (working at Walmart 20 years
won't make you wealthy, or a respected Walmart executive). But work hard in a
videogame for a few weeks or months, and you can have very concrete evidence
of your progress. It's not hard to see why people would prefer investing hours
in the latter then.

Maybe that's where the appeal of the army lies for some. The very clear
hierarchy means you know exactly where you fit, and what the path to the next
rung of the ladder is - something that is true in very few other
organizations.

~~~
noonespecial
Video games also provide a quality sorely lacking in real life. They try very
hard to prevent cheating, because if there's too much cheating, or too much
inequality between players, no one will play.

Hmmm...

~~~
btdiehr
Exactly, that's why runescape and world of warcraft have adopted the marxist
game mechanic of automatically redistributing all resources and exp between
all players at the end of every day.

~~~
Can_Not
That's funny that to you "turning off cheating" somehow becomes fully
automated communism.

If I were a kid and there was some game where my one of my peers always won
because their parents let them spend literally hundreds of dollars on advanced
gear that would cost me months of gameplay hours, I wouldn't want to play it.
The game's updates and design would probably drift towards rpping off that
kid's parents instead of maximzing fun. For some people, this is already real
life for them.

In WoW, if my peer has a rare sword, it's not because his mom bought it.

~~~
trentmb
People don't pay real money for in game items?

~~~
Can_Not
Lots of people don't pay extra for in game items.

------
jorgemf
Of course, because the lower salaries, the high prices of the houses and the
global crisis during these years has nothing to do with the unemployment in
the young population.

~~~
Analemma_
This is the easy response to the article. It is partially true, but the
article is more true than you're giving it credit for.

There are other articles about this (e.g.
[http://www.vulture.com/2017/02/video-games-are-better-
than-r...](http://www.vulture.com/2017/02/video-games-are-better-than-real-
life.html)) all confirming that unemployed people who play video games don't
have the same increase in unhappiness that other unemployed people have. Which
might be good for their short-term well-being, and is something to keep in
mind for the post-scarcity UBI future if that ever happens, but in the medium
term worrying, both for the individuals and for the economy generally.

There are currently sectors- like construction- which are having trouble
finding labor as the economy picks back up. Are these people going to avoid
re-entering the labor force even when they can get a job, and are we ready for
the consequences of that? And even if they do, they'll be starting out way
behind on building household wealth and work experience.

~~~
pharrington
-if the post-scarcity UBI future ever happens-

I live in a country that throws away half of its prepared food. Like we're not
even talking about some chopped up animal corpse that sits out for too long
and has to be discarded before it goes rancid - in the US we strait-up
assemble food in some factory, wrap it plastic, burn fuel shipping said
wrapped and assembled food to a store halfway across the country, unwrap the
food, put it in another container, and then at the end of the day just toss
the remaining contents of the container into the garbage bin because you've
got a few more tons of shipped and prepared food already in storage that needs
to be sold. This is the post-scarcity future.

~~~
kpil
It won't be a problem* unless we make more of us. Political and religious
leaders that oppose education and planned parenthood are the long term
problem.

Ok, slaughtering is a problem, but I think it will sort itself out eventually.

~~~
metaphorm
don't you think it's a much bigger issue that we are normalized to a
profoundly wasteful life style? this isn't really a population problem, it's
an energy per capita problem.

~~~
kpil
No. It's primarily a population problem, although that does not mean that we
should not manage the resources we have as efficient as possible.

------
voidhorse
Video games are sometimes hammered a bit too hard. They certainly have their
negative impacts, but the media harps on the downsides so much they often
obscure benefits. They're one of the few forms of entertainment that actually
force you to think--it's very easy to consume movies, television, and even
leisurely books without thinking hard or at all, 'passive consumption'. Video
games, by their nature, force you to at least use your noggin a little. Sure
it probably becomes passive consumption too once you've played a particular
game enough and have habituated skills, but at least it's engaging your mind
on some level at the start. They can also fuel a healthy (though of course,
potentially unhealthy) sense of competition, which other entertainment, aside
from physical sports, can't.

I've become more aware of these little benefits as I've stopped playing games
in lieu of other priorities. That being said, I don't think I'll go back to
playing video games to any intense or serious degree any time soon--they
really are quite addictive. I guess because they tap into those natural human
drives for accomplishment, control, and competition, unlike other forms of
entertainment. It's a fun hobby, and probably third best as far as general
benefits go, behind creative hobbies and sports. That being said, it is way
too easy to get sucked in, and to, as this article seems to suggest, let games
become a substitute for more meaningful structures in your life.

~~~
edem
I also play games because it keeps my mind active even when I have fun. That's
the reason why I don't like watching series beacuse it is passive. I've also
noticed that I have more fun nowadays _writing_ games than playing them.

------
jumpkickhit
There's worse forms of escapism that are far less stimulating.

Alcohol or drugs, for example.

It's nice we live in an age where there's engaging entertainment like video
games instead of just more passive entertainment like TV.

~~~
dominotw
>Alcohol or drugs, for example.

drugs like marijuana make everything more stimulating. Food tastes better,
music sounds better, you can enjoy movies from almost any genre.You can get
into great conversations with your partner where you are actually interested
in what they are saying. Get over musicians block and let the music flow. so
on.

~~~
posterboy
Utter bollocks. That's the placebo effect that comes with being so doped up
that one couldn't tell a good painting from a bad one, eg.

~~~
dominotw
millions of people smoking marijuana for the placebo effect? ok.

read this [https://munchies.vice.com/en_us/article/science-says-weed-
ma...](https://munchies.vice.com/en_us/article/science-says-weed-makes-food-
taste-and-smell-better)

You think it's being perceived to chemo patients for the placebo effect?

[https://www.cancer.org/treatment/treatments-and-side-
effects...](https://www.cancer.org/treatment/treatments-and-side-
effects/complementary-and-alternative-medicine/marijuana-and-cancer.html)

~~~
posterboy
No, I'm not gonna read that and I'm still going to call bullshit. Neither did
I claim any reason for anyone to smoke. Nor does the rest of your comment make
any sense.

> perceived

prescribed

> chemo patients

are we still talking about stimulation or in fact about the opposite? You just
said chemo patients want to feel their pain intensified, if I got that right.

I'm sure you are looking for a stimulating conversation to learn more about
it. In return you should stop trying to educate other people, even more so
when you get your information from vice of all places.

~~~
posterboy
To restate my point, there is no intrinsic quality in dope that would boost
creativity and sensibility, quite the opposite actually. Only once the effects
start wearing down, a relative increase will be felt.

Most people are just expecting _something_ out of doing it so they become
convinced to have achieved something and that might actually be the case to
some degree, but mostly it appears bigger in hindsight than it actually was
because of clouded judgment.

Edit:

The consequence is that people get exited anyway and exhaust that because of
numbing effects until much later after the fact.

------
nabla9
The actual paper is really interesting.

Leisure Luxuries and the Labor Supply of Young Men
[http://economics.sas.upenn.edu/system/files/event_papers/lei...](http://economics.sas.upenn.edu/system/files/event_papers/leisure-
luxuries-labor.pdf?download=1)

------
minimaxir
After recently becoming unemployed, and in my spare time when not looking for
jobs, I finally started working on my gaming backlog from sales (e.g. Witcher
3) and experimented with games that have a time commitment I have been
avoiding, such as MMOs and League of Legends (which I ended up stopping
because the rumors of a toxic playerbase are not inaccurate)

At the least, I got it out of my system and am now back to personal technical
projects/blogging.

~~~
toomuchtodo
I think it's important to be mindful that entertainment like video games in
moderation is entirely acceptable. We must not squeeze productivity out of
every waking hour in the day.

~~~
ouid
If you replace "productivity" with "utility" you might find more consistency.

------
jakozaur
On positive side, until recently economic crisis caused crime rate to go up.
However, after 2007-2008 crisis the overall crime rate has not increased.

[https://phys.org/news/2015-09-link-economy-crime-
broken.html](https://phys.org/news/2015-09-link-economy-crime-broken.html)

There are a lot of hypothesis to explain that, but I believe computer games
played some role in that.

~~~
nabla9
There also seems to be inverse relation between consuming porn and rapes.

However I think the strongest connection seems to be in the amount of lead in
the blood and crime. The crime rates seem to fall everywhere in the world
(with predictable delay) after that country restricts lead in gasoline. We
know that lead is causes developmental problems in children (like problems
with impulse control).

------
ajeet_dhaliwal
I used to joke that unemployed players with nothing else to do ruin online
play with hyper competitiveness when someone like me wants to play once a week
or month. May not be far fetched after all.

Aside being a former gamer (no time anymore) and having worked in the games
industry for 6 years, that stock photo is a prime example of the ridiculous
way game playing is portrayed on TV and film and by publications that don't
know much about games. No one ever plays games with their controller held that
way and their arms reaching out.

~~~
aidenn0
Anyone new to video games does things like that photo (push the controller
forward when punch/kick/shoot/go fast, turn the controller to the side you
want your character to go, &c.)

------
pzh
If nothing else, at least those economists have found the solution to keep
people occupied when AI renders half the world unemployed. Now the premise of
the Matrix doesn't seem so far fetched after all.

~~~
hanoz
Isn't the premise, unbearably absurd even by the standards of the rest of the
movie, that humans are used as a power supply?

~~~
desdiv
NEO: The human body is the most inefficient source of energy you could
possibly imagine. The efficiency of a power plant at converting thermal energy
into electricity decreases as you run the turbines at lower temperatures. If
you had any sort of food humans could eat, it would be more efficient to burn
it in a furnace than feed it to humans. And now you're telling me that their
food is the bodies of the dead, fed to the living? Haven't you ever heard of
the laws of thermodynamics?

MORPHEUS: Where did you hear about the laws of thermodynamics, Neo?

NEO: Anyone who's made it past one science class in high school ought to know
about the laws of thermodynamics!

MORPHEUS: Where did you go to high school, Neo?

(Pause.)

NEO: ...in the Matrix.

MORPHEUS: The machines tell elegant lies.

(Pause.)

NEO (in a small voice): Could I please have a real physics textbook?

MORPHEUS: There is no such thing, Neo. The universe doesn't run on math.

[0] [https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/1263/is-the-
basic-...](https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/1263/is-the-basic-
premise-of-humans-as-a-power-source-in-the-matrix-reasonable)

~~~
pimlottc
Now that's a movie I'd like to see. I mean, if you're going to simulate a
universe, what's stopping you from playing around with the parameters a bit?
Or at the very least, cutting some corners to save processing time.

~~~
J-dawg
Isn't this a theory that's sometimes used to support the simulation
hypothesis? The idea that weird effects in nature such as wave/particle
duality are the simulation's way of cutting down on processing time, something
like reducing draw distance in a 3D game.

It's probably the kind of thing that will be easily debunked by a real
physicist (if you are one, go ahead) but I find the idea quite mind-blowing if
I think about it for too long.

~~~
posterboy
Rather, it's a reduction of our processing, in our head, if anything. The
dialog is correct, noone in school manages to verify quantum physics.

------
chasing
This is a weird article.

"Young people earn less, face higher unemployment rates than ever, and have
been hit hard by financial recessions. Are video games to blame?"

------
teekert
Why is this piece all about jobs? Where's the family aspect? The hours playing
games that could have been spent socializing, courting, going to a bar, having
sex? Those things are even more important than working hard at a career. Sorry
but this does sound very American to me. You have a very work focused culture,
it's where esteem is earned it seems. I think that is also a bit troubling.

In the end it is very simply though wherever you are from, you can either
spend your time consuming or you can spend it creating.

~~~
bootloop
Depends on who you ask. Some people tend to work harder on their careers than
their social life. Might benefit them more even if it looks different to you.
In my opinion there is not much difference (in regards to being social)
between me going to the bar with my friends or joining a voice server to play
games with my friends.

------
DamonHD
The direction of causation (if there is one at all) is rather important as the
article states. I have no time for video games at all, no I have no good feel
for how likely they would be preferred over work and real financial
independence for all but a very few.

------
ouid
>games will go on getting better

I don't think there's any evidence for this, and the call to panic is based on
it.

~~~
boubiyeah
yeah that makes no sense. Games will go on getting visually better but
Gameplay, fun, replayability has very little to do with it.

~~~
EthanHeilman
I have spent some time going back and replaying older games that I found
amazing when I originally played them. Outside of simple reflex games like
Tetris or Mario, game play has not aged well. Play a strategy or RPG video
game from the mid 90s and see how fast it takes you to find some exploitable
feature that makes the game trivial to beat.

Compare:

1\. "Shogun: Total War" to "Warhammer: Total War" or

2\. Civ2's city spamming to Civ5 really well designed gameplay.

3\. 1993's Stronghold [0] is so easy for modern gamers to win it feels more
like an interactive screensaver than a game and it was a great game when it
was released.

The only real exception to this rule is RTS games like Starcraft or C&C, but
only in multi-player.

tl;dr Gamers and game play are in a Red Queen's race with each other.

[0]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stronghold_(1993_video_game)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stronghold_\(1993_video_game\))

~~~
ouid
Games which were cpu limited in 1993 have improved for obvious reasons, but
I'd argue that the best games between 2000 and 2008 were qualitatively better
than the best games between 2008 and 2016, certainly of equal quality at
least.

------
ensiferum
It's time to start questioning the underlying idea if jobs. We're close to a
society that could make work optional or at least people could spend much less
time doing it.

------
MichaelMoser123
the article says that a lack of good jobs in the real word is contributing to
this.

Now gamers have their own online communities; I guess that the network of
online friends could help to build a real world network to solve real world
problems. This would be of great value to the players.

I wonder if future games will have a built in social networking
functionality...

~~~
RugnirViking
Many modern games (especially MMOs) already do, not to mention platforms like
steam or xbox live that facilitate both buying games and talking to friends

------
prodmerc
More like a link between easy entertainment and unemployment. Before games, TV
and movies did the same thing.

------
sksareen1
^Clearly written by a non-gamer.

------
bhewes
Leisure time comes from wealth. So a bunch of young men are wealthy enough to
not work and play video games instead. All these articles miss the point
someone is paying to keep these men playing games.

~~~
hbosch
That's a very broad generalization. Videos games, computers/consoles, and
internet access are essentially commoditized to the point where an Xbox, some
games, and a TV (+ maybe internet) can be found cheaper than an iPhone.

You could easily drive part time for Uber and get your emotional fulfillment
from video games without being supported by wealthy parents.

~~~
bhewes
Perfect point Uber is paying them and they play video games. (I love games,
and the US is a wealthy country across the board so it does not surprise me
that men are enjoying more leisure time at a younger age.) I am pro more video
games.

------
kpil
The causation is clear. If you have free time, you spend it.

There might be an indirect causation which is homework vs games, but I suspect
that students with less encouragement from their parents to do their homework
spend the time on games.

So forbid homework and make the schools take responsibility for actually
learning their students something.

