

The death toll from guns no one talks about: suicides - imitationdame
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2015/09/03/the-death-toll-from-guns-no-one-talks-about/

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hirundo
Suicide is a perfectly legitimate use for guns. If someone is so miserable
that they want to die do we really want to make it harder for them? In most
such cases the appropriate pill would be a better option: more sure, less
dangerous to others. But since we've made those so hard to get, do we really
want to condemn the use of other available tools to get the job done?

When my father was dying of brain cancer and his time was short, he walked up
to me as angry as I'd every seen him, asking what I had done with his gun. He
was prepared at that moment to use it to end his life, fully dressed when he
hadn't been out of bed except for the bathroom in more than a month. I hadn't
hidden his gun from him, it was misplaced for other reasons. If he had found
it where it belonged, the first I'd have heard about it would have been his
final gunshot.

Instead he changed his mind and decided to die at the pace of his disease, as
his father had. It took about another three weeks, and there was nothing
positive about those weeks for him, even with plenty of pain killers at hand.
He lost control over himself, his personality, and his dignity. I try not to
remember that part of his life.

I don't know that he made the wrong decision. But I do know that it was right
that he had that decision to make.

Certainly there are many cases where guns are used for suicides that are
tragically misjudged. But since we can't know what those people are feeling,
they're in a better place to make that judgment than we are.

~~~
zzalpha
_If someone is so miserable that they want to die do we really want to make it
harder for them?_

That's such a deeply complicated question I'm not sure where to start.

To begin with, suicide and euthanasia are not interchangeable concepts. We
have two different words for those concepts for a reason.

So let's not begin by conflating them.

Now, as for suicide specifically, the question is: how many folks choose to
commit suicide, and then in the absence of any easy method, don't, and then
ultimately be glad they _didn 't_?

That's the real challenge of any easy method of suicide. Someone who is
depressed may make a snap decision to end their life, and then do so, when, if
they'd only had some time to consider their decision, they might have chosen
to do otherwise.

So, to answer your question, yes, I think we _should_ make it harder for them.
Hard enough that it requires a bit of second thought before the decision can
be made. If someone is truly determined to end their own life, a barrier like
that won't stop them. But it will prevent those snap decisions from leading to
a death that may have been avoided.

Lastly, regarding your father, without hearing him speak, we the reader can't
know if _he_ regretted his choice to live out his days. I'm sure it was
horrible and painful and a relief when it was done, but that doesn't mean his
choice was the wrong one. Going back to my central thesis, I believe
euthanasia should be a conscious, thoughtful decision, and never one made on
the spur of the moment.

 _But since we can 't know what those people are feeling, they're in a better
place to make that judgment than we are._

I actually _deeply_ disagree with this statement. Are you telling me you
believe all folks considering suicide are in a state where they can make an
accurate judgment?

Have you ever deeply known someone with profound depression?

Trust me: someone sufficiently depressed to consider suicide is suffering from
an illness, and that illness deeply compromises their ability to make a
considered decision in this topic.

Yes, I agree, absolutely folks should be able to make their own decision,
assuming they are of sound mind.

But the vast majority of suicide is not by someone of sound mind.

~~~
hirundo
> how many folks choose to commit suicide, and then in the absence of any easy
> method, don't, and then ultimately be glad they didn't?

I'm one of them. Yet that gives no one the right to substitute their will to
live for mine. I have made many, many wrong decisions in life. Suicide may
well one day be my last. But a life in which I'm prevented from making those
mistakes is one more worth leaving.

> So, to answer your question, yes, I think we should make it harder for them.

That would be unethical aggression against another person, and not a mild one.
If I resolutely stood between someone and their means of suicide they would be
justified in using using deadly force to veto me.

> Yes, I agree, absolutely folks should be able to make their own decision,
> assuming they are of sound mind. But the vast majority of suicide is not by
> someone of sound mind.

That's a Soviet approach to mental health, where having a disfavored opinion
was enough to make you legally incompetent. I understand deep depression
intimately, yet disagree that it's grounds to infantilize another human.

~~~
zzalpha
_I understand deep depression intimately, yet disagree that it 's grounds to
infantilize another human._

So what about other mental illnesses? Dementia? Schizophrenia? Is it your
position that, regardless of the mental state of the individual, their
personal decisions should be paramount, no matter the cost, including their
own life?

If so, then we'll have to agree to disagree. There are many many contexts in
which we, as a society, determine that someone is mentally unfit to make
decisions, and then treat them differently, whether that be a schizophrenic
who is given a different sentence in a trial, a person delirious on pain
medication unable to sign a legal contract, or a minor who is denied the right
to vote. If you disagree with that basic principle, you disagree with one of
the fundamental tenants of the society in which you live.

Of course, you're free to feel that way, but don't be surprised if others
don't share your views.

~~~
hirundo
> There are many many contexts in which we, as a society, determine that
> someone is mentally unfit to make decisions

And in many of those contexts those determinations are routinely unjustified,
and have resulted in massive institutionalized civil rights violations over
generations. You can read Thomas Szasz for heartbreaking details (e.g.
[http://www.amazon.com/Manufacture-Madness-Comparative-
Inquis...](http://www.amazon.com/Manufacture-Madness-Comparative-Inquisition-
Movement/dp/0815604610)). Hopefully someday we can look back on such policies
with similar horror to how we now see 17th century Bedlam. Instead of using
them as arguments for further authoritarianism.

~~~
zzalpha
_And in many of those contexts those determinations are routinely unjustified_

And many contexts where they are. And 'round and 'round we go...

But, I think you answered my question, however indirectly: you believe all
such rules/laws/whatever are unjustified.

I believe that's madness, but hey, we'll agree to disagree.

Have a nice day! And I wish you luck with your depression, it really is a
constant challenge (my wife struggles with it, so while I can't speak from
direct experience, I have an enormous amount of sympathy).

