
Soylent hits its 1.0 formula, nears release - shawndumas
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/12/soylent-hits-its-1-0-formula-nears-release/
======
mixmastamyk
I've been supportive of the idea of soylent, but this article actually made me
worried, is it accurate?

Only rice protein? Not complete... there's a reason it is usually paired with
beans.

That amount of carbs does not match the early human diet, but rather the
modern one. Not the end of the world, though.

Also a physician isn't a dietitian/nutritionist. The fact they've brought the
former on board instead of the latter is another unfortunate red flag re:
cluelessness. Hopefully I've missed something.

~~~
asdasf
Wow, where to start. You are seriously repeating the protein combining myth?
In 2013? Protein is measured by scaling its amino acid profile compared to the
ideal for a human. 100g of rice protein provides 100g of usable protein for a
human, the same as 100g of beef protein does. That 100g of rice protein is
just significantly more than 100g of raw ingredient, as there's a bunch of
"wasted" amino acids.

We have little to no evidence to support the paleo fad. Human beings have
consumed grains for at least 100,000 years.

A physician is not a dietitian or a nutritionist. They are far more qualified.
A dietitian requires simply a bachelor's degree in pretty much anything
(social sciences is fine) and then a short internship where you learn to
repeat what the book says. Nutritionist is just something anyone can call
themselves with absolutely no qualifications whatsoever. Picking a doctor over
those options is not a red flag.

~~~
mixmastamyk
As a sole nutrition source as soylent is, the increased biological value of
vegetable protein combining would be a valuable improvement in efficiency. The
"myth" is that micromanaging every meal is necessary (it's not), ... unless of
course you are on a meal replacement product for weeks at a time.

A higher number of nutrition sources is better than a single one... a varied
diet.

Grains, not in large quantity. Agriculture is about 10,000 years old. Yes, the
diet of ~4 million years is a "fad" while the one 400 times shorter is normal.
Taken to extreme, the modern diet, where everything is pumped full of sugar
has lead to an obesity epidemic.

Also, physicians are far more qualified in _other_ subjects and take only a
fraction of the nutrition courses a dietitian would. There's a reason a doctor
will refer you to one--it's not because they are less qualified.

~~~
asdasf
Efficiency of what? You need X protein. They provide far more than X. There is
absolutely no problem with their protein source. The fact that they could use
slightly less raw ingredient to get there doesn't matter if that other
ingredient is hard to source consistently.

We've had proof of grains being milled 100,000 years ago for several years
now. The 10,000 myth that is used to promote fad diets is not accurate.

Dietitians require barely any training. Just a degree in whatever and a brief
"read this book and learn how to repeat what it says". You can do it in two
weeks. They are absolutely less qualified than doctors. Doctors refer you to
them because doctors have limited time and teaching people the food pyramid is
not a valuable use of it.

------
powertower
> One is that the carbohydrate mixture has been nailed: one 500g bag of
> Soylent will contain 210g of oat flour and 132g of maltodextrin. The protein
> mix has also shifted—our beta Soylent contained a mix of rice and pea
> protein, but production Soylent will contain 102g of brown rice protein
> isolate.

Anyone else tried Brown Rice protein, and found it's undrinkable, harsh, and
indigestible, probably because they use also the bran and germ to derive the
protein from?

Maltodextrin pretty much made me feel terrible and weak when I took it in the
past.

And eating oats in the morning these days for some reason messes with my
ability to fall asleep later on.

> This has been simplified, with the main oil switching from grapeseed to
> canola.

I consider grapeseed oil to be the perfect oil. It's light and easily
digestible. All other oils have been known to give people headaches and
migraine that have sensitive digestive systems. Especially when mixed with
whatever you're eating - causing digestive issues with that food.

They've turned their product into 1 big allergen for me. Though that's just
me, you might not have any problems with it.

~~~
danudey
But in any complex system there can be various factors that lead to things
being out of balance. I know someone who can't take multivitamins because
there's too much iron in them and it upsets her system. If she were getting
too much iron somewhere else, though, and cut that back, then they would be
fine.

The point I guess is that perhaps these things aren't bad for you, but rather
they're bad for you in the current context of your environment, health, and
current dietary intake.

On the other hand, maybe they're just a bunch of things that are awful for
your specific metabolism. Given the issues you posted, I probably wouldn't
want to try it out if I were you.

------
blhack
They've also done a REALLY good job of addressing peoples' critiques.

For instance: manufacturing. They've contracted with an experienced, FDA-
certified manufacturing facility that Does This Sort of Things.

Can't wait to get my soylent!

(My girlfriend has been trying to create DIY soylent, so I'm really curious
how hers will taste different than the "real" thing. The experiment from last
night: soylent flatbread!)

~~~
hcarvalhoalves
The hype around Soylent is unbelievable. You realize you don't need to wait
for it if you want, you can just go out and buy Ensure and similars?

~~~
Shamanmuni
I'm no expert, but as I understand Ensure is a supplement for your meals,
Soylent is a replacement for them.

You shouldn't consume only Ensure, but you could do it with Soylent. They are
completely different products.

~~~
ceejayoz
> You shouldn't consume only Ensure, but you could do it with Soylent.

[citation needed]

Malnutrition can have effects years down the line. A bunch of early-adopters
with confirmation bias trying it for a couple months proves little about its
long-term safety.

~~~
Shamanmuni
Sure, but if your regular meals are pizza, hamburguers, instant noodles, junk
food and the like then you are on your way to malnutrition already. Soylent
could be a very positive change for those people.

It's not like meals are an arcane science working some unknown magic on your
body, it's about biological needs and chemistry. And it's not like there are
chefs cooking healthy food in every home. I don't claim anything about
Soylent, I have never consumed it, but it sounds like a possible solution to a
big problem. Time will tell.

~~~
ceejayoz
> Soylent could be a very positive change for those people.

It could also be _worse_. Without long-term, scientifically valid studies, no
one knows for sure.

> It's not like meals are an arcane science working some unknown magic on your
> body, it's about biological needs and chemistry.

The workings of the body are not fully known, even today. There are many
unknowns in nutrition, which is precisely why none of the pharmaceutical
companies have a "replace all meals!" product.

~~~
Shamanmuni
Again, I'm not disagreeing (at least completely) with you. Research is
necessary.

I would like to try this for those times when I'm short of time to cook and
resort to ordering a pizza for example, not as a complete replacement. And I
think it would be advisable for the people interested to do that as long as
there's not serious research.

However, currently there are serious studies about the bad effects of fast
food on your health, it's not an unknown. The way I see it, you are more
worried about something that could be bad than about something we know is bad.
It doesn't add up to me. Sounds like neophobia. And I'm sorry in advance if I
seem rude.

~~~
ceejayoz
The risks of fast food are a known quantity, and folks eating it as a large
component of their diet tend to be folks doing so for financial reasons.
Soylent is comparatively expensive.

------
patrickg_zill
It is absolutely ridiculous - if you want a real cutting edge diet, check out
keto or paleo. Too many carbs, too processed, not enough (or any? not sure)
animal protein.

That he would be quoted talking about "saturated fat" as if it is evil, shows
how clueless he is.

~~~
psychometry
Soylent is not a diet; it is a food product. I don't think you understand the
problem they're trying to solve. I can't go online and order a supply of keto,
can I?

~~~
anonymoushn
You can go online and order a supply of 50/30/20 carbs/fat/protein, though.

~~~
kazagistar
Which I can poor into a blender and make and consume as a meal in less then 5
min? Is it cheap? Does it require minimal consideration on my part? Then you
are pushing something totally different and irrelevant.

~~~
anonymoushn
Yes, it's more expensive than cooking but less expensive than eating out, yes,
rude.

------
ufmace
I've been thinking some about Soylent and the criticisms leveled against them,
mainly that we still don't know as much as we'd like about exactly what types
of food the human body needs to survive.

One the one hand, it was my understanding that most nutritional deficiencies
are relatively slow to develop, and whatever happens as a consequence of them
usually goes away after the sufferer resumes normal eating. So if there is a
problem with it, whoever notices it will probably be able to just go back to
whatever they were eating before and be no worse off.

On the other hand, what better way to learn more about what the human body
really needs than to create a food like Soylent and have a bunch of people try
to live off of it long-term? If it turns out that there's some vitamin or
something that we need a little bit of every so often and didn't know about,
then we'll find out about it from people eating Soylent, and they'll add that
to it and keep going. So good for them on actually getting out there and
trying it, instead of talking about how impossible they think it is.

~~~
stcredzero
A really big contribution to the effort to get to Mars and other destinations
farther from Earth would be to have a bunch of people try to eat nothing but
stabilized foodstuffs for a period of time like 2 years. It would be something
like: nothing but Soylent and MREs for two years.

~~~
kazagistar
Seems like they have plenty of people willing to give it a try already. If you
wanna try it now you can. If you wanna wait a few years to see if it is safe,
you can do that too.

------
awestroke
I'm concerned about the macronutritient ratio... I mean, 50% carbonhydrates?
Half of which (132g of 500g, according to the article) is maltodextrin (which
has a higher glucemic index than SUGAR)? I don't consider a diet healthy if it
consists of 25% sugar.

If they changed the ratio to perhaps 20/50/30 or similar and elimitated the
sugar, I'd be interested.

------
rblatz
I still don't understand the excitement behind this, but apparently everyone
here can't stop talking about them. So I guess they are doing something right.

~~~
danudey
It's the ultimate in appeal to the geek crowd. It optimizes away a process
which is a balance of expensive, inefficient, time consuming, and often
unhealthy.

Breakfast and lunch are throwaway meals for me; I eat because I have to in
order to live and be productive and healthy, but none of my choices seem
optimal. I can eat a fresh, healthy meal at work (expensive), I can reheat
yesterday's dinner (microwaved food is less appetizing and often not as
healthy), I can grab a quick meal (unhealthy and often expensive), or I can
prepare a proper lunch ahead of time (time consuming).

The promise of soylent is simple: from now on, you can eat meals because you
want to, not because you have to. On top of that, you only get what you need,
and not what you don't want.

I compare it to, say, Linux. You can compile all your software from scratch,
install dependencies, and customize absolutely everything, and some people do
that because they enjoy it. Many people don't, and don't want to deal with it,
and we have distributions like Ubuntu that take away 80% of what you used to
need to do to get a proper Linux distribution running.

With Soylent, you still have the option of other meals; it's entirely up to
you. You can drink it as your sole nutritional intake, you can have a Friday
dinner out, or you can eat dinner with the family and just replace breakfast
and lunch.

~~~
rblatz
They have meal replacement shakes out, and have for years. They have much more
attractive sounding names.

------
shaunxcode
Wow this is great news! unless I read wrong it should be totally vegan now as
the fish oil is not required? I love the idea of cooking being a collaborative
ritualistic experience you engage in for holidays/celebrations and soylent
being something you use the rest of the time.

~~~
sp332
_The EPA / DHA fatty acids from fish oil are incorporated directly into the
oil blend now._

Sounds like the fish oil is still there, it's even pre-mixed so you can only
avoid it by replacing the oils entirely.

------
RankingMember
They really need to redo the source footage of their intro video. The audio is
awful and the green-screen they used had some not-great lighting.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSkOVkgd8hY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSkOVkgd8hY)

------
_fs
Hopefully they got all of the rats [1] out of the production facility.

[1] [http://www.vice.com/motherboard/life-after-
food/](http://www.vice.com/motherboard/life-after-food/)

~~~
jljljl
They addressed this here [http://blog.soylent.me/post/66807143901/this-
morning-vices-b...](http://blog.soylent.me/post/66807143901/this-morning-
vices-brian-merchant-published-a)

>> We would also like to emphasize the fact that Soylent 1.0, the product for
which we have accepted over $1.5M in preorders, will not be manufactured by
hand by our executive team. We have signed a purchase order with RFI
Ingredients, a contract manufacturer with over 20 years of experience
producing FDA-approved food products.

I was extremely skeptical of these guys, but they seem to be addressing some
of the major concerns I had. I still think there's a lot of testing to be done
before this lives up to all the promises, but they get some definite kudos for
their quick responses.

------
Cthulhu_
So, average male's daily need in one 500 gram bag... How much does this cost
again? I mean I'd be interested in replacing one or two meals with something
like this, but only if it's not too expensive.

~~~
soperj
Why don't you start using some of the ones currently on the market then?? Why
wait?

~~~
georgebashi
Could you link some of these products available for purchase for purchase
please? I've heard a few times times that there are soylent equivalents
currently available, but from my searching I've only ever been able to find
meal supplements and not complete replacements.

~~~
randallsquared
[http://abbottstore.com/sub-brand/Ensure-
Complete-31.aspx](http://abbottstore.com/sub-brand/Ensure-Complete-31.aspx)

Ensure Complete has an interesting nutrition panel: it's 25% of everything
listed, if I remember correctly. A four pack is 1400 calories and everything
you need for a day. In my local stores, it's about $8. Jevity isn't marketed
in grocers like Ensure Complete is.

~~~
asdasf
>it's 25% of everything listed, if I remember correctly

You don't. If you tried to live on ensure complete (which they seem to only
sell in the US?) you need to add potassium, choline, more fat, more calories
in general, more fiber, more sodium and chloride, but unfortunately not in the
ratio they are found in salt (that was bright) and you now have diarrhea all
the time from the magnesium. All that and it is more expensive than soylent.
This crap is precisely why people are stoked about soylent, we've tried the
existing products and they suck.

~~~
randallsquared
Ah, quite right, I see that's on their site:

[http://abbottstore.com/adult-nutrition/ensure-complete-
milk-...](http://abbottstore.com/adult-nutrition/ensure-complete-milk-
chocolate-8-fl-oz-bottle-case-of-16-62758)

But, this crap is not why people are stoked about soylent, since the vast
majority of people who are excited about soylent don't seem to be aware that
there are a bunch of products that are pretty close (or possibly better in
some cases) already.

~~~
asdasf
But there aren't a bunch of products that are pretty close or better, that's
the point. The only 100% complete nutrition products are medical products for
tube feeding, and they are expensive.

------
dmazin
This is exciting, especially the updated texture.

I used Soylent because my dinners were so depressing (crumbled tofu with
deactivated yeast) that I figured I might as well just gulp liquid nutrition.
But, honestly, that was even more depressing. So I just learned to make some
nicer simpler dishes, and I've been fine.

------
crististm
"Dr F. Xavier Pi-Sunyer, a professor of medicine at Columbia University
College of Physicians and Surgeons and senior attending physician at St
Luke's-Roosevelt Hospital and the New York-Presbyterian Hospital."

\- that's one handful of buzzwords and reinforcement degrees to hush the
infidels

------
jchung
This is definitely looking much better. The marketing folks at Soylent seem to
have kicked in. The packaging looks sort of like space food. The texture looks
more "substantial", and the color is a step up from beige. I wouldn't be
surprised to see flavoring coming next, with more color varieties.

~~~
adambard
I believe the color was added by the author for the photo; it still comes
beige and unflavored. But, the author also experimented with adding flavoring,
too, to reasonable effect.

------
maxk42
Like many of you, I have some pretty serious concerns about soylent. I
encourage you to check out [http://diy.soylent.me/](http://diy.soylent.me/)
and consider mixing your own formula or trying one of the others that have
been developed in an open-source manner.

------
simplemath
Anyone who would willingly forgo food for Soylent on any kind of ongoing basis
should have their Homo Sapiens card revoked.

Eating healthy, delicious food (not mutually exclusive, for the record) is one
of the simplest, most fundamental joys of existence.

~~~
tlb
Like sex, delicious food is a fundamental joy of existence. But also like sex,
eating 3 delicious meals a day is past the point of diminishing rewards.

I find I enjoy life most when I eat real, delicious, handmade food a few times
a week in a relaxed setting with friends or family, and something quick and
healthy I don't have to think about the rest of the time. Currently I
alternate tuna+beans with protein shakes for the quick meals, but I can't wait
for my Soylent to get here.

(I'm a Soylent investor)

~~~
simplemath
Eating 3 delicious meals a day is diminishing returns only if you consistently
prepare one off meals with no leftovers. I understand using Soylent as an an
occasional meal replacement, but Soylent's message has consistently been one
of "food replacement" which while certainly provocative, I find antithetical
to optimizing enjoying being alive

------
widdershins
I find the idea of a foodstuff reaching a '1.0 release' somewhat...
offputting.

~~~
jbigelow76
Top notch chefs have been doing it for decades just without the gimmicky
software versioning nomenclature.

