
I founded Happy Cow Milk to make a difference in dairying. I failed - colinprince
https://thespinoff.co.nz/business/21-04-2018/i-founded-happy-cow-to-make-a-difference-in-dairying-i-failed/
======
ChuckMcM
Ah a full stack failure. That is when you decide to change (or implement)
everything in the full stack from raw material to consumer in one go. As a "go
to market" strategy it is usually fatal. In the technology business it is a
company that makes their own CPU, their own operating system, and then opens
their own retail stores for selling their computers with their own software.
Plastic Logic failed this way when instead of just marketing their screens
they tried to build an entire reader (screen/case/os/etc).

Based on the telling of the tale, a different strategy might have been to a
milk packer that used re-usable glass bottles. Buy milk from Fronterra, then
package it in re-usable packaging, and work with the grocery stores to stock
it and handle the returns. Work that cycle developing tools and processes that
get the use of reusable containers to the same level of efficiency as the
plastic containers. That is like a 5 year project right there. Surveys of
stores on their return process, helping them improve it, maybe building
receiving kiosks that handle it without the store having to train employees to
do the return.

Just doing that and you have helped the dairy business be more sustainable.
Once that is running, _then_ start looking at remote milking the cows. Your
bottling company now has two brands, "earth friendly" milk in sustainable
bottles, and "earth and cow friendly" milk in sustainable bottles from happy
cows.

~~~
tomohawk
Many problem solvers fail to take into account that a solution does not all
have to be done in one swoop, but that it can be made much less risky and more
likely to succeed by proceeding in stages. Only Superman jumps buildings in a
single bound. The rest of us have to use the stairs.

~~~
LifeLiverTransp
I propably shouldnt say this- but i always loved farmers and there fast, and
practical solutions to problems. Have yet to see a farmer meeting where a
bunch of yesman and naysayers boil great ideas down to the smallest comon
demnominator.

The fact that he even got this far- doing it all by himself, where others
would have run out of money just making plans for a bottling plant- that alone
is quite impressive.

The valley can learn a thing or two from those proto-typing maniacs out there,
who dont spend half a year on there knees to get the procurement management to
sign of on some vital investment just so that some hierarchy and kings-court
do feel important.

------
miles
Two related quotes[0]:

 _The human body has no more need for cows ' milk than it does for dogs' milk,
horses' milk, or giraffes' milk._

 _The very saddest sound in all my memory was burned into my awareness at age
five on my uncle 's dairy farm in Wisconsin. A cow had given birth to a
beautiful male calf. The mother was allowed to nurse her calf but for a single
night. On the second day after birth, my uncle took the calf from the mother
and placed him in the veal pen in the barn—only ten yards away, in plain view
of the mother. The mother cow could see her infant, smell him, hear him, but
could not touch him, comfort him, or nurse him. The heartrending bellows that
she poured forth—minute after minute, hour after hour, for five long days—were
excruciating to listen to. They are the most poignant and painful auditory
memories I carry in my brain. Since that age, whenever I hear anyone postulate
that animals cannot really feel emotions, I need only to replay that torturous
sound in my memory of that mother cow crying her bovine heart out to her
infant. Mother's love knows no species barriers..._

[0]
[https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Michael_Klaper](https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Michael_Klaper)

------
jimmaswell
Why not just compromise on the plastic jugs? I don't understand why he was so
hung up on the plastic jugs. The humane milking part seems much more
important, and more people would probably buy it in that form.

Why would customers who didn't recycle the plastic bottles be more inclined to
recycle the glass jugs? Just to get a tiny deposit back?

~~~
chrissnell
Here in small-town Kansas, we buy our milk at the supermarket. You can choose
from the store brand in plastic or a local dairy, Hildebrand Farms, in glass
jars. If you go with the local stuff, you pay a $3 deposit on the bottle. It's
a strong incentive to return them. We wait until we have four or five jars and
return them in a batch. The milk is fantastic and I've toured their dairy so I
know what I'm getting and where it came from.

[http://hildebrandfarmsdairy.com](http://hildebrandfarmsdairy.com)

~~~
atomical
That implies that if you don't know that it's dangerous. That may not be the
case because milk naturally contains hormones that can effect the endocrine
system.

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4524299/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4524299/)

> In summary, it seems that steroid hormones are very potent compounds in
> dairy foods, which exerting profound biological effects in animals and
> humans. Most of the previous knowledge about the steroids is according on
> their physiologic and sometimes supra-physiologic concentrations of steroids
> but recently it is found that these compounds even at very low doses may
> have significant biological effects.

~~~
allannienhuis
Not sure how your'e making the jump from bottled milk to hormones in milk.

That said, hormones in dairy products are a real issue. It's illegal to use
hormones in Dairy Cows in Canada, and when antibiotics are necessary for
treatment of sick cows, their milk is discarded until it tests clean. Diary
products typically cost more in Canada than the U.S. as a result, but I don't
mind paying for the extra safety.

[https://bcdairy.ca/milk/articles/does-milk-contain-growth-
ho...](https://bcdairy.ca/milk/articles/does-milk-contain-growth-hormones-and-
antibiotics)

~~~
betterbeehome
"That may not be the case because milk naturally contains hormones that can
effect the endocrine system."

NATURALLY CONTAINS HORMONES. This isn't about added hormones for growth. But
the fact it contains natural hormones which grow baby cows as fast as
possible. Basically, unless you're a calf, you shouldn't drink milk. I'm less
sure about processed milk products (butter, hard cheeses, etc)

------
chias
For those who didn't actually get to the end of the article, he hasn't given
up yet -- he made the decision to, and then the overwhelming support he
received changed his mind. He's still "fighting the good fight" for the sake
of kinder treatment of cows and letting them stay with their calves.

More info (and you can also support him) here:
[https://www.happycowmilk.co.nz/](https://www.happycowmilk.co.nz/)

~~~
igravious
Last four lines of the article

“And then my fatal flaw emerged. The one that got me past all those early
‘no’s and sustained me through four years of hard graft – my relentless
optimism.

So 24 hours later, I was back on Facebook, sketching out ideas on how Happy
Cow V.2 might work.

Change is hard. You have to climb over a lot of ‘no’s to get there. But this
story might not be quite over.

If you would like to help our cause please consider signing up for updates at
happycowmilk.co.nz“

------
pera
This part left me thinking:

> _So you’d ask, what about reusable milk cans or kegs to supply cafes? Again.
> No._

Every time I go to a coffeehouse I see that, even in the biggest chains,
baristas serve milks (animal/plant based) from normal bottles. I have always
wondered why is that: aside of how wasteful it is, isn't it also more
expensive?

~~~
cjrp
I've just started going to a cafe in London which uses a kind of tap to fill
the milk jug from a keg. They get a keg delivered, and then when the keg's
empty it goes back, gets cleaned and refilled for another customer. It's one
of those things that when you see it, you think why isn't everywhere doing
this? Especially eco-conscious coffee shops.

Similar to this: [http://www.moobar.com.au/](http://www.moobar.com.au/)

~~~
lostlogin
The cleaning of the lines must be a pain and it would be a bit of a downside
I’d think.

~~~
corobo
The pub and bar industry seem to have it figured out. I get that it's milk so
it'd probably need doing more frequently but as starting points go it's
probably not a bad one

------
robocat
And here is a _successful_ way to do a similar idea in NZ with unpasteurised
milk in reusable containers that has been going for many years on a few farms:

[http://www.villagemilk.co.nz](http://www.villagemilk.co.nz)

[http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2017/04/raw-
milk-v...](http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2017/04/raw-milk-vending-
machine-an-udder-success-for-canterbury-farmer.html)

------
wes-k
The problem is there is no way to have humane milk. It will always require
impregnating cows and taking the calf’s milk.

~~~
anoncoward111
There are some frontiers where vegan replacements aren't particularly tasty to
me (vegan cheese for example, at least in its cold form).

But as for almond milk and soy milk and coconut milk, their taste, to me, is
clearly superior to cow's milk.

~~~
wes-k
Vegan cheese may never have the variety and taste, but that’s something I
decided I can accept.

That said, there have been improvements and more awesome brands appearing
every year! Check out miyoko’s cheeses and butter!

[https://miyokoskitchen.com](https://miyokoskitchen.com)

~~~
anoncoward111
Awesome :) I think I've tried "Go Veggie!" and "Daiya" brands from the super
market. If you melt the Go Veggie brand into vegetable chili and then put that
on top of some baked pita chips, you are in for an enjoyable meal ^.^

~~~
castle-bravo
Just FYI, Go Veggie isn't vegan or dairy free (at least last time I checked),
it's _lactose free_.

Also, Daiya isn't the state of the art by a long shot. If you're adventurous
and have a large grocery budget, Chao (served cold) is the most cheese-like
cheeze that I've had so far.

------
pipio21
I feel sorry for this man. He is a perfectionist.

He believes everything has to be perfect or if not he does not do it. Because
of that at the end of the day we have nothing.

With a company you need to compromise. Probably you can no use glass, but you
can use polyethylene and paper (tetrabrick).

Step by step you could do a lot. We take lots of technical debt, if we make
something that is not a perfect solution but it is better than anything that
exist on the world, we ship it. The world improves.

Yes, it is not perfect, but if the product success over time you could pay
your technical debt and make it perfect. If not , it just means that people's
pockets is not where their mouth is(which is common by the way).

------
RcouF1uZ4gsC
I think it was Seymour Cray that said to push the boundary in one dimension at
a time.

However, in this person was trying to do two new things at the same time:
reusable glass bottles and humane cow treatment. Both of those caused friction
with the existing infrastructure. I think that if he had just tried to have
humane cow treatment and just used the disposable bottles that everyone was
using, he would have had a better chance to succeed.

------
btcindivist
The thing is, people don't really care about animals. Especially not the kind,
calm and docile ones.

A holocaust is happening currently, 60 billion most docile and mostly female
cows and fowls are eliminated every year. No one gives a damn.

Heck, even I don't. I drink my milk and eat my chicken. I consider those
things mine and don't care if the milk is a product of forced selection that
created a monster of a species, or that chicken is a flesh of an innocent
animal.

I do not even care about what it does to the environment.

I'm voting with my money to have this practice continue.

The whole system is built for meat and milk to work. Yeah, it's some wierd
suboptimal local minimum but that's what it is. I live in a meat culture and
don't care if I can survive eating only plants.

~~~
hirundo
People care enough to pay extra for cage-free chicken eggs at the supermarket.
My local Safeway has about as many cage-free offerings as not. So people do
care, and enough that catering to it is profitable. The question is whether
they care enough to pay enough extra to significantly affect treatment of
animals.

And who knows what the limit is as we grow wealthy enough to willingly pay
extra to salve our souls. With enough wealth and wokeness, could we someday
provide our livestock with an actually good, and perhaps even idyllic life ...
before we kill and eat them?

~~~
btcindivist
Cage free is still factory farming, there's just no cages, but a huge big
closed dark cage. I'm in no denial when I'm buying those eggs.

~~~
dilap
you can get pastured eggs. those are (supposedly) happy chickens running
around, living a very good chicken life.

the difference in the eggs is striking: thicker shells, much deeper orange
yolks.

~~~
em500
Yolk color is fully controlled by the producer using feed supplements:
[https://www.dsm.com/markets/anh/en_US/products/products-
caro...](https://www.dsm.com/markets/anh/en_US/products/products-
carotenoids/products-carotenoids-carophyll.html)

~~~
dilap
interesting!

------
HIPisTheAnswer
He went way too big. This is a business plan that needs to start _very_
locally. Trying to hit retailer shelves with this is counter to the premise of
sustainability; if a combustion engine is used for shipping the milk, and if
refrigeration is used, there is no sustainability left. We ferment milk, using
what's called 'kefir' bacteria's - the health benefits compared to raw milk
are hard to believe, and the milk can sit at room temperature for _over a
year_ without any problems. We make cheese with it and it ages very well. Raw
milk isn't sustainable.

~~~
newscracker
> We ferment milk, using what's called 'kefir' bacteria's - the health
> benefits compared to raw milk are hard to believe, and the milk can sit at
> room temperature for over a year without any problems.

Once you ferment it, isn't it yogurt, and no longer milk? Do you use it for
beverages like coffee, tea, shakes, etc.? If you leave it out for a year (or
even a few weeks), doesn't it get completely fermented and become sour?
Doesn't it get fungus after a few weeks? Or do you turn it into cheese soon
after fermenting (which has a much longer life)?

~~~
scottie_m
I’m not an expert, and a year sounds like a long time, but here’s some
information to answer a few of your questions.

Is it yogurt? Sort of. Sour cream is also fermented milk products, but we
don’t call it yogurt. That’s maybe a bit arbitrary, but there it is. In the
case of kefir, I’d argue that the distinction is valid. Yogurt is just
inoculated with various strains of bacteria, which eat milk sugars and produce
lactic acid. That lactic acid is delicious, and it also tends to kill any
invading microbes that might make us sick, like fungi. Kefir is similar, but
is inoculated with “grains” of a symbiotic culture of bacteria _and_ yeast.
Kefir is like... milk kombucha. Sort of. (Real) Kefir is actually carbonated
and very slightly alcoholic, because the yeast is doing part of the sugar-
eating, producing CO2 and ethanol as a result. In that sense it’s kind of like
milk beer, or milk-yogurt-beer, you get the idea.

Cheese is a whole different beast! When you make cheese you use an enzyme,
rennet, to separate curds from whey in fresh milk. What you next depends on
the cheese, and doesn’t have to even involve aging or fermentation. Of course,
some cheese is allowed to react with fungi (Brie), or swabbed with bacterial
cultures(Muenster), or exposed to wild strains of both. Incidentally you can
also ferment butter, which develops a somewhat cheesy flavor due to lactic
acid fermentation, but because it’s not treated with rennet and is almost pure
fat is Not cheese.

Finally, the lactic acid produced in any fermentation process will eventually
be concentrated enough to kill _everything_ including the “good” bacteria,
just like yeast will eventually kill itself with a high enough concentration
of alcohol. So there is a limit to how fermented something can be, and after
that you’re just aging it. Of course the traditional way with kefir was to
keep adding milk and kefir grains to the existing kefir. The result was sort
of perpetual fermentation, almost like a sourdough starter, or kombucha
“mother” can be continuously fed and fed upon.

~~~
newscracker
Thanks for the detailed reply. I do know a bit about kefir and have used it to
ferment things. So I was wondering what product is it that stays out for long,
which I now understand is kefir itself. For some reason I thought maybe it was
referring to something else in the GPs comment.

As for the process of straining it and feeding it to perpetually make more
kefir, I've known about that for quite sometime.

------
bambax
> _But I wasn’t comfortable with the practice of removing calves from mothers
> and sending four-day-old calves to be slaughtered._

Calves are a by-product of milk. The world doesn't need calves, doesn't want
(or like) veal. Calves exist because in order to get milk, we need to get the
cows pregnant. Then we kill the calves.

There is no other way to get cow milk; there is no way to make "humane" milk.
We can either, not use milk, or devise a way to produce synthetic milk.

But cow milk == killing calves.

~~~
txsh
There’s consumer demand for veal. It’s delicious. Companies just don’t want
the headaches caused by the finger-waggers. So many male calves are shot and
discarded instead of becoming food. It’s insane.

~~~
mschuster91
> So many male calves are shot and discarded instead of becoming food.

Well, at least now I think I found out where all that cat and dog food comes
from. Seriously, 90 million cats and 70 million dogs alone in the US, that's a
huuuuuge load of food.

------
creep
That's weird. In Canada every health food store carries organic milk in glass
bottles for about $3/L. Not sure if the calves are taken from their mothers or
not, but the farming practices of the particular brand I'm talking about
ensure healthy soil. It's not as cheap as plastic jug milk, but the stores
give you I think $.50 for returning the bottles.

------
karmakaze
> At this point you might just decide that there’s no way around this and put
> your milk in plastic bottles. This is what most smart people would do. But I
> know that most of the plastic milk bottles in New Zealand are not actually
> recycled. And so I built my own milk factory.

This where I stopped reading. Don't let lesser issues get in the way of
solving a major one.

~~~
craftyguy
That is a pretty major issue itself.

------
bayesian_horse
The dairy industry is about the worst industry to start anything. I've seen it
up close in Germany, where some milk farmers still want to expand or set up
new farms, despite lamenting about the poor price of milk. The farmers seem to
have some kind of myopia where all they see is milk farming, and damn if the
market needs it.

And it's going to get worst. Pretty soon we will discover that you don't need
a whole cow to make some milk. Substitutes for milk components are already in
use everywhere, but it shouldn't be that difficult to produce "authentic" milk
proteins and other components using synthetic biology.

Before that, maybe we don't need a calve from every cow, improving at least
that part of the animal welfare issue.

And even a "disruptor" with cow-less milk may fail quickly, as consumers don't
like change and milk is so damn cheap anyway.

------
netfire
Why not just go with paper milk cartons? They are very recyclable and
biodegradeable and I think it would be easy to find a supplier/packager and
the stores would have no problem selling it.

------
apahwa
if your customers are willing to pay a premium for your product just because
you are doing things in a more humane way then they are probably also the type
to actually recycle their cartons.

~~~
BLanen
Honestly, going for carton seems like it would have made his whole thing a lot
easier and it's not that bad. Also easier to brand I think since the whole
thing can be printed on.

------
tomohawk
Why couldn't he just print an MSRP (manufacturers suggested retail price) on
his bottles... Make the retailers justify the higher price.

------
bradknowles
IMO, the biggest mistake he made was not keeping in touch with the final
consumers of the product, as he was building the rest of the process. If he’d
done regular posts on social media about what he was trying to do, he could
have gotten good feedback and contacts with like-minded people much earlier.

And then he wouldn’t have had to shoulder that burden himself all by his
lonesome.

------
mrfusion
I find the biggest problem with gallon milk containers is that they’re too
heavy for kids to pour themselves.

I’m not sure what the answer is. Maybe something that can sit in your fridge
with a valve a kid could turn.

It’s such a simple thing but if your best customers can’t access your product
without assistance the industry could actually be losing a lot of money.

------
sudosteph
I wonder if he could patent that portable milking station thing and just
license it to other milk producers. I definitely would be more likely to buy
milk that didn't require the slaughter of calves. Not aware of any options for
that in the US though.

~~~
subpixel
Male dairy calves are always slaughtered, b/c (with rare cross-breed
exceptions on tiny farms) they are the wrong breed for meat and nobody wants
to buy and raise them as pets.

------
amriksohata
Farmers in the UK inject cows with estrogen and antibiotics to make them grow
faster and bigger. We are messing with nature and making them and ourselves
sick. Cows need milking, they feel pain with full udders, but not at the mass
production level where they are also subjected to being killed for meat.

~~~
open-source-ux
_Farmers in the UK inject cows with estrogen and antibiotics to make them grow
faster and bigger._

This is not true. EU rules ban the use of growth hormones and antibiotics as a
growth agent in livestock. Antibiotics are still (overused) for disease
prevention but there is a realisation that this needs to change (whether it
will is a different matter).

I can't find more recent data, but here are figures from 2011 on antibiotic
use in livestock in countries around the world, including New Zealand, the US
and the EU.

[https://amr-review.org/sites/default/files/Info%204%20bar%20...](https://amr-
review.org/sites/default/files/Info%204%20bar%20chart%20white.jpg)

Also, some British supermarkets are now publishing farm antibiotics data from
their supply chains:

[http://www.fwi.co.uk/livestock/waitrose-asda-ms-publish-
farm...](http://www.fwi.co.uk/livestock/waitrose-asda-ms-publish-farm-
antibiotics-data.htm)

