
Dear Apple, DUNS is a scam, but you already know that - guptaneil
http://blog.metamorphium.com/2012/12/03/apple-duns/#
======
davidjgraph
I received my number within a week for free without hassle, but I applied some
years ago. After that, I received continued phone calls on the registered
phone number from companies claiming to have some association with DUNS.

This continued to the point that we actually changed the company phone number
to avoid these people. We left the old number working for a while, and the
only calls were DUNS spam.

After we dropped the old number we found only one disadvantage to having our
DUNS contact details being out of date. When we applied for one of the more
verified SSL certificate packages available, the company phoned the number on
the DUNS database to verify.

But that could be worked around, and a bit of hassle there was far outweighed
by the advantage of stopping the spam calls.

So linkbait headline? No, I would agree from several years of having been on
their database.

~~~
Tloewald
Registering a business name seems to have much the same effect, so I'm not
sure it's merely DUNS.

Similarly my wife at some point had to register some kind of entity to get
reimbursed for speaking at a conference and immediately unleashed a torrent of
spam. (Correction — my wife's torrent of spam was from DUNS :-)). But hey,
mine was just a normal business name registration, and i got the same result.

The US is plagued with cold-calling spammers — just part of the American
Experience.

~~~
davidjgraph
I'm not in the US, I'm in the UK. Cold calling is against the law to TPS
registered phone numbers and very rarely happens.

DUNS is the main exception in the time I've been in business.

~~~
Tloewald
It's supposed to be against the law in the US, especially to cell phones, but
it's still horribly common,

~~~
UnoriginalGuy
If it is against the law but nobody enforces the law then it is a meaningless
law.

In the UK they rarely enforce it but often enough so companies think twice.
They also tell the telephone networks hosting the spam callers to kick them
off.

~~~
eli
Enforcing a US law against VoIP scam artists in other countries is not
trivial.

------
ChrisTaggart
The wider problem with the DUNS number, especially as far as its use within
government, is that it is a proprietary identifier, which makes it unsuitable
for use in a public domain context, especially as far as combining with other
data (e.g. combining data from different federal agencies) or in an open data
context. Having said that the UK government is now using it in procurement
just as the US government is now starting to understand the underlying
problems and having second thoughts about its use. See
[http://blog.opencorporates.com/2012/07/24/are-duns-
numbers-t...](http://blog.opencorporates.com/2012/07/24/are-duns-numbers-the-
crack-cocaine-of-id-systems-and-is-the-uk-the-latest-addict/) for more details

------
michaelpinto
I hate linkbait headlines like this because DUNS is not a scam:

It's a useful tool used in the real world of business. Need to see how long a
company typically takes to pay? You use DUNS. Want to get and Federal work?
You have to have a DUNS before you can register (in addition to your IRS
paperwork).

Of course I get the idea that if you're a lone coder how that can be a pain. I
also get that if you aren't in the US that it might not make any sense.
However that's no reason to call it a scam.

~~~
nhebb
D&B makes money selling their rating information, but while a DUNS number is
free, you have to pay to manage your rating. I can't recall the exact wording
but the salesman's phone pitch bordered on "Nice little business you got
there. It'd be a shame if anything happened to your DUNS rating."

These two links share similar experiences:

[http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?biz.5.505486.1...](http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?biz.5.505486.11)

[http://www.cartoonbarry.com/2010/06/dun_bradstreet_seems_sca...](http://www.cartoonbarry.com/2010/06/dun_bradstreet_seems_scammy_he.html)

~~~
illuminate
"while a DUNS number is free, you have to pay to manage your rating"

Sounds like they're going with the Better Business Bureau's model, only with
less consumer pretense that they're a legitimate governmental agency with the
power to do anything and less charitable "we're a volunteer-staffed agency and
thus neutral" airs.

------
theone
For India, they don't even have any option of getting it free. You have to pay
a minimum 7500 Rs (~ $ 150) + taxes. Though after payment they gave it in 4
days.

This is a sear monopolistic policy, why should I pay fucking 150$ to any
agency for just getting a DUNS number. On top of that, there is this annoying
wait period and delays.

~~~
Tloewald
Not wanting to defend DUNS but what's the process for getting Indian
government contracts? In Australia there were voodoo lists of approved
contractors, and I have no idea how one got onto them, how long it took, or
how much it cost.

------
olgeni
I think this is very good news: it could mean that Apple ran out of ways to
torment developers and brought in a third party to fill the gap. Personally I
would have opted for forcing new developers to cross-validate each other's
documentation after translating it into Esperanto.

------
larrys
"As a startup, you probably don’t have a DUNS number, since they are primarily
used when doing business with the government."

Flat out wrong.

DUNS numbers are not a scam. I've had them at past companies and my fathers
company had one many many years ago. And I've used them to check credit on
companies that I've dealt with. Has nothing to do with the goverment.

It's simply wrong to call DUNS numbers a scam.

------
bkraz
I registered for a DUNS number circa 2003 at no cost, and also experienced
high-pressure sales calls/emails regarding upgraded credit monitoring
services. One sales rep even mentioned 9/11 as a reason that I should care
about my business's credit rating. That's pretty scammy as well as pretty
stupid. If you actually want to do business with the government, then you'll
also have to register your new DUNS number with the CCR, and ORCA, which are
_much_ more time-consuming processes, but not at all scammy.

------
alternize
in several (european?) countries, incorporated businesses automatically are
assigned a DUNS number by D&B. head to <http://www.upik.de/en/upik_suche.cgi>
and search for your company before requesting a number. surely enough, all of
my companies already had one, even the one incorporated two weeks ago.

~~~
rickmb
Great tip. I couldn't find it through D&B's own website (the search result
found our companies but only tried to sell me shit), but apparently we have
DUNS numbers without ever applying for it.

------
thomseddon
For companies in the UK finding your DUNS number can be real pain, so for the
record you can actually look it up yourself for free, with no wait:
[http://blog.thomseddon.co.uk/find-your-d-u-n-s-number-if-
you...](http://blog.thomseddon.co.uk/find-your-d-u-n-s-number-if-youre-in-the-
uk/)

And the TL;DR: <http://www.dnb.co.uk/myduns>

~~~
mmahemoff
Thanks for this! Took 5 minutes and they mailed my number back immediately.

Any idea why it's free in the UK?

~~~
jrabone
You could probably submit a request under the Data Protection Act to force
them to reveal it anyway, so it makes sense for them to just have a web
form...

------
zem
at what point do people decide that the apple app store is not worth
developing for? the early gold-rush days have passed, so there's not even the
lure of making loads of money from a minimum-effort app, and from what i hear
the store is now so crowded, and the search and sort tools so bad that even
getting your app _noticed_ is a struggle - so why continue to deal with
apple's abusive hoops and requirements?

~~~
sedev
For Apple's App Store to become less appealing, you'd need at least a couple
of the following to happen:

* Android App Store/Google Play becomes a viable business proposition

* Windows App Store becomes a viable business proposition

* Blackberry App Store becomes a viable business proposition

* The demographics of Apple device owners shift away from the current favorable, affluent, app-buying profile

* The app screening process gets easier, such that malware and other liability-causing software infests it the way that Google Play is infested (and remember, Apple and Disney are longtime buddies and Apple is working a lot harder for media companies' cooperation than Google is)

* The developer program entry barriers become something that bother serious coders already invested in the Apple ecosystem, as opposed to random grumpy developers on the Internet (it is rarely a good business move to treasure the opinion of people who aren't your customers and don't intend to become customers)

Currently, none of these things have happened.

~~~
zem
good points, especially the last one. i guess if you're already invested in
the apple ecosystem ios development seems like a natural extension to mobile.

i was surprised to see you list the screening process as a plus though - that
alone would be enough to make sure i never go anywhere near apple mobile dev.
i can sees users being (justifiably!) nervous about malware, but as a
developer the process looks onerous and capricious. (though again i suppose i
mostly hear about it from disgruntled people)

~~~
sedev
The app screening and approval process has problems, sure, but they're dwarfed
by the upside. Users think nothing of downloading and installing a new app on
their iThing, and when they don't want they app, they delete it and it's gone
for real. Contrast this to the Windows desktop that formed a lot of people's
learning experiences, where a new app can fuck things up tremendously and
where it's gratuitously hard to make sure that something is gone for real.

That trust that users have in the app ecosystem is, from Apple's point of
view, a tremendously valuable asset, and so they are taking logical steps to
preserve it. If they lose it, people stop buying apps, the virtuous circle
goes to pot, and Apple is in deep trouble. Sure, being assholes about the app
approval process has costs, and it's really annoying from the developer side -
but from Apple's point of view, the cost of _not_ being hardasses about the
approval process, is absolutely ruinous.

------
apike
Upon actually completing the form, it currently responds that it is "currently
unavailable".

Still, I'll definitely be bookmarking this and coming back - if the article is
correct, this is really helpful. Will be good to hand to clients too.

~~~
killahpriest
Same.

------
watson
How does this affect non-US companies? I guess the DUNS rule only apply if
you're incorporated in the US

~~~
xuki
We need it in Singapore, and we don't have the option to get it for free, we
had to paid around 30 USD for it. And it took weeks to sync with Apple
database.

------
Zaephyr
When I applied for a number under the 'free' option, D&B said they would to
contact the company. However, they would never leave a voicemail - the
'accounting' IVR option goes straight VM because it's not a full time
position.

When I called them I was told I need some ~$700/yr service if I wanted to
initiate the process on that phone call (though it was strongly recommend that
I go with $1500/yr option).

Some time later, using their business search function, I found that they had
issued a number for my company.

------
jpdoctor
Completely agree. And the fact that D&B gets to sell the info? Inexcusable.

This is a service that is simply begging for some competition, and I'm waiting
for a startup entrant.

~~~
eduardordm
Actually, the info is already public, they just offer some sort of web
service. They do have competitors: PwC, S&P, BBB, Moody's but they do not
offer the 'registration' service alone, they want to rate the company which is
somewhat expensive.

------
OrionSeven
Well DUNS isn't exactly a scam, it does help identify the uniqueness and the
validity of a business. But...

1) It's painful to use (horrible navigation) and they constantly try to up-
sell you (thus the horrible navigation).

2) If you need to correct information on your DUNS account it takes forever.

This is what happened to me while getting my Apple Developer Account. There
are multiple departments at D&B , ones that can only verify domains, or others
that look up your business information. They coordinate very poorly. For
whatever reason they already had my business, but old information and the
incorrect domain. It ended up taking 3 tries and six weeks for D&B to update
my information.

------
eduardordm
I'll have to wait 60 working days for the DUNS number. My app got finished in
october, we only managed to get all documents D&B asks in november.

Right now, it takes at least 4 months for non-US companies to put an app in
the app store. This is ridiculous, immoral.

Relevant <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4977889>

I took this to local authorities, but they are not willing to act on this yet.

------
terrywilcox
I own a Canadian corporation and had zero problems getting a DUNS number, once
I figured out what it is. It was free and only took a couple of weeks from
start to finish.

It wasn't half as annoying as having to snail mail a piece of paper to Apple
(Canadian government GST agent form, must be paper).

I don't see how it's any different from all the other hoops I have to jump
through to run a business.

------
latchkey
They just called me, asked me to verify my information and said that my number
would be emailed to me within 24-48 hours. No hassle at all.

------
kristopher
Hmm, DUNS was discussed in great length recently (4 days ago) on HN[0][1]...
Not sure why we need another thread on the topic.

[0] <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4977889>

[1] <http://sam-dunne.com/post/39040255207>

~~~
guptaneil
This post provides a workaround to the problem those links describe.

------
nirvana
While I agree that Dunn & Bradstreet (the issuers of the DUNS number) is a
"scam"[1], there are several errors in this article.

The first is, that Apple was getting extreme heat for how long it was taking
for them to verify companies. There were many posts from Rogue amoeba, and
many linkbait articles complaining about the "App store lottery" and how Apple
wouldn't let many people play.

Apple switching to DUNS is clearly an attempt to make this process go more
smoothly for everyone.

More importantly, though, because of the potential for liability that Apple
has in selling items thru the App Store on behalf of developers, Apple needs
to assure, via some "reasonable" process, that they are dealing with real
entities.

A business isa fictitious entity, almost by definition, and so to protect
itself from knowingly or negligently selling copyrighted material it's not
authorized to, it has to authenticate that the businesses it is entering into
contracts with are legitimate businesses. IF it does that, then putting warez
on the appstore becomes the liability of the business, not apple.

Apple is a huge target and has been harassed by frivolous and obnoxious
lawsuits seemingly forever... so it is not unreasonable for them to ensure
that their contracts with App developers are legitimate because they are with
legitimate entities.

Thirdly, DUNS numbers are not some obscure number used only when doing
business with the government.

They are the primary credit reporting agency for businesses in the USA. Most
businesses (or at least many) get a DUNS number just in the course of doing
business and don't ever have to apply. For instance D&B has a feed of
incorporation info from many state's secretaries of state, and as a matter of
course, issues DUNS numbers to businesses after they incorporate.

Building credit for a business, because of limited liability laws, is more
difficult than individual credit. The fees DUNS charges are usually for their
"credit builder" programs, and given the value of the service to a business
that needs credit (think your mom & pop flower shop, etc.) they are probably a
good deal.

This doesn't exclude shady sales practices or make them right. There's
certainly a great deal of reform that the whole credit reporting agency
business should go thru...mostly removing government protections of liability
for false information, etc.

Consider, though, that it is rather easy in the US to form a business and to
dissolve one. Combine that with credit and you risk scammers forming
businesses, running up debt and then shutting them down in bankruptcy and
making off with the loot.

So, unfortunately, some of the obnoxiousness of D&B comes from their desire to
prevent this... but at the same time, their practices are pretty incompetently
done (as is the case with all Credit Reporting Agencies) and so what may seem
like a scam is often really just poorly implemented policies, with a
reasonable motive.

The choice here for Apple is either use DUNS, a third party whom they can
effectively offload compliance liability to

[1] As currently set up by the US government, really. The US government passed
laws that allow credit reporting agencies to violate privacy in all kinds of
ways. This is why DUNS and the other CRAs are such problems for consumers in a
huge variety of ways. They are "regulated" such that they are very difficult
to hold accountable. The only upside- you get a single free copy of the info
they are holding on you, but only once a year. (Which is weak sauce, to say
the least.)

