
Hillbillies Need No Elegy - zigzaggy
https://bittersoutherner.com/hillbillies-need-no-elegy-appalachian-reckoning
======
temp-dude-87844
These sorts of elaborate rebuttals, like the article or the art project it
references, aren't that different from the works of outsiders that they seek
to prove wrong. It seemingly is the case that Appalachia attracts a kind of
journalist-meets-artist who finds plenty of material for a culture-tinged
exposé of somewhat-thoughtful poverty and hardship porn, but a curated
photoset of Sides of Appalachia You May Not Know is aimed at the level of The
New Yorker, and not something relatable to everyday folk in the suburbs or the
Midwest. It does little to dissuade the notion that Appalachia still has an
odd mystique, which is a disservice to region.

The fact is, Appalachia is largely "just" economically depressed region like
Northwest Kansas or the Mississippi Floodplain or the drive from Tucson to El
Paso, where most jobs are retail and government and the best jobs are in
mineral extraction or transportation or industry, but far fewer than in times
past. Transportation is a pain but yet it's crisscrossed by critical routes,
and life there is pretty normal for rural America. Really, there's only a
handful of areas in the US where you can ride the a boom if you time it right,
everywhere else things are just okay. In some places you have fewer options.
People try to get by, or try to leave. It's odd how much Appalachia has
gripped the popular imagination, and how outsiders and a few well-positioned
insiders perpetuate it.

~~~
jessaustin
Sure, but Vance is more "wrong" than his detractors are. He's the one who sees
all poor people, and all poor people alike.

~~~
mieseratte
Wrong in what regard? I found nothing wrong with Vance’s book. Having a
similar family background to Vance, I think he has a great outlook on the
matter.

~~~
moorhosj
I think his biggest miss was failing to connect the region to the rest of the
country. He could have easily compared Appalachia to Rust Belt cities facing
urban decay but never made the connection. It could have made the story of the
region more approachable to more people. It seemed so obvious to me how the
areas are linked by economic circumstances, environmental degradation, poor
education levels, distinct culture and problems with drug addiction.

~~~
mieseratte
> He could have easily compared Appalachia to Rust Belt cities facing urban
> decay but never made the connection.

Did you and I read the same book? Most of this story is occurring in the Rust
Belt[0], in Middletown, Ohio[1]. He discusses the mass Appalachian flight into
Rust Belt towns and the mixing and clashing of culture.

If anything, I'm glad the author kept things largely, as the subtitle would
imply, a memoir of sorts. He focuses on his family history and his life to
give a face to the problem, but makes you aware that these are major problems
in that community. From there you can draw your own comparison based on your
experiences.

[0] -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust_Belt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust_Belt)

[1] -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middletown,_Ohio](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middletown,_Ohio)

~~~
moorhosj
I think we read the same book. I don’t really think of Middletown as a Rust
Belt city. It’s a town of 50,000 people. I am talking about big cities like
Detroit, Milwaukee, Chicago, Cleveland and smaller ones like Youngstown and
Erie.

As someone who lives in one of those cities, it seemed like a clear
correlation could have been made. It was chance to unite a rural and an urban
problem across race and I thought it was a missed opportunity. I still enjoyed
the book, but think it is even more powerful when read in tandem with a book
like Evicted [1] that views the problem from another perspective.

[1] [https://www.amazon.com/Evicted-Poverty-Profit-American-
City/...](https://www.amazon.com/Evicted-Poverty-Profit-American-
City/dp/0553447459)

------
ixtli
“The perception that mountain folk like to be poor serves someone — but it’s
not the poor mountain folk. The representation of Appalachia as all white is
not only inaccurate, but it preserves a false and destructive ideal of
imaginary “pure white stock.” Images of decay and absence allow those in power
to turn away from a place that has been forgotten, but has not disappeared.
The narrow ideas that circulate about this broad place do active harm.”

Brilliant.

~~~
danesparza
I'm assuming the commentary is about this book:
[https://www.amazon.com/Hillbilly-Elegy-Memoir-Family-
Culture...](https://www.amazon.com/Hillbilly-Elegy-Memoir-Family-
Culture/dp/0062300555)

This book is specifically written from one (white guy's) point of view --
somebody who grew up in the area.

I'm not sure how the ideas that circulate about this place do active harm.
Most (if not all) accounts I've heard about this place are personal accounts.
The truth from people who have lived or traveled there.

Sometimes the truth hurts. Denying it's truthful isn't helping anybody.

~~~
mbreese
It’s right in the first lines of the article.

“In the new book “Appalachian Reckoning,” dozens of mountain voices combine to
talk back to J.D. Vance’s best-selling “Hillbilly Elegy.” Today, an exclusive
story from its co-editor and a powerful essay (which involves Granny, her .38
pistol, and some coal trucks) excerpted from the book.”

Part of the point of the article (which was very good) was that there is not
singular truth about a place a vast and varied as Appalachia. This new book
seems to be much more than a commentary on Hillbilly Elegy.

------
scarejunba
I've got to tell you: every subculture of humans has fractal complexity that
is not captured by any representation. We're reduced to using blind men's
descriptions of elephants. Nothing can be adequately explained in any book,
not Appalachia and not the subculture of people in a semi-urban locality
outside of Kandy.

This is natural, so we use shortcuts as heuristic predictive tools: so the
Russians throw numbers at war, the Chinese steal your secrets, the
Appalachians are poor, the New Yorkers rude, the Japanese clean and neat. And
the San Frannigans bristle at that demonym while they shit themselves in the
street.

So, no, the fact that there is complexity and uniqueness in culture is normal.
It is not interesting. The only value is what you extract as the weak
trendline. Imagine a scatterplot with loads of overlapping red and blue dots,
but there are more blue dots above some line than red dots, by a considerable
number. Most of them will interact, some red dot may even be higher than any
blue dots, but you will be reduced to the fact that blue is higher than red on
the graph. It is a weak decisioning tool because the complexity is both
incompressible and useless for prediction.

~~~
SKILNER
> every subculture of humans has fractal complexity that is not captured by
> any representation

Yes, and the facile reduction of that complexity is the source for much of the
political stupidity making us miserable. Also, thank you, Internet, for
spreading it around so prolifically.

~~~
dash2
Counterpoint: "fuck nuance".

[https://kieranhealy.org/files/papers/fuck-
nuance.pdf](https://kieranhealy.org/files/papers/fuck-nuance.pdf)

"I do claim that the more we tend to value nuance as such—that is, as a virtue
to be cultivated, or as the first thing to look for when assessing
arguments—the more we will tend to slide toward one or more of three nuance
traps. First is the ever more detailed, merely empirical description of the
world. This is the _nuance of the fine-grain_. It is a rejection of theory
masquerading as increased accuracy...."

------
gffyfnhdv
“Morgantown, West Virginia [...] We were in the heart of Appalachia“

BS! Morgantown is definitely not the heart of Appalachia:

\- It’s only 9 mi into WV!

\- has population that doubles during the school semester

\- has three or four federal agencies (FBI, NETL, NIOSH)

\- showered with federal and state largess (thank you senator Byrd)

\- has traffic jams worthy of a city with 10x it’s population

\- has one of my favorite restaurants in the US

\- has a significant private sector economy (Mylan, for one)

-if I recall, technically it didn’t have a recession in ‘08.

I’ve lived in Morgantown for a while. And while I certainly caught a glimpse
of Appalachia, it certainly isn’t the heart. Maybe it’s about as redneck as
the president of WVU dares to venture.

~~~
RegBarclay
I agree. I'm originally from Charleston and have always said that it's not
like the rest of WV.

I'd say the real heart of Appalachia is Pikeville KY.

~~~
atwebb
Well, Hillbilly Bear is the representative picture for Pikeville on Google
Maps which is a vote in your favor.

------
huffmsa
> _The room was packed with intellectuals, artists, donors, students, the
> president of West Virginia University and the dean of its law school._

Nary a coal miner, nor axeman to be found in this ivory tower meeting.

~~~
sebular
Yeah, that was the point of the sentence. A man who wasn't Appalachian was
telling a room full of educated Appalachian intellectuals that Appalachians
are happy making 24k a year because they don't "need to show off".

Also, it wasn't an "ivory tower" (such a limp, worn-out descriptor) meeting,
it was a book launch, and it was literally open to the public.

------
golemotron
The best way to understand what makes Appalachia what it is culturally, is to
read _Albion's Seed_. The people who ended up there came from parts of Britain
that required extreme self-sufficiency and had no real functional government.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albion%27s_Seed](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albion%27s_Seed)

[https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/04/27/book-review-albions-
se...](https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/04/27/book-review-albions-seed/)

~~~
sudosteph
I'd argue the best way would be to travel there and read actual histories from
local sources. While it's nice to imagine a simple root cause to everything -
it's not enough. When my great-grandparents settled in Appalachia about 100
years ago, they did it to find opportunity and escape the terrible working
conditions of cotton mills. That side of the family are religious democrats
who support unions and new-deal style economic reform and public education.
They and their kids integrated culturally, most of them never left and never
plan to. Their story is not an uncommon one, their desire for better
government support is not out of the norm, and it does nobody any good to
propagate a myth saying their culture of self-sufficency was decided 300 years
ago when it was actually developed as a necessity after continuously being
ignored. Cultures grow and Appalachian culture is no exception - we need to
get past this shallow type of categorization based on original settlers.

~~~
50208
Yes, but don't travel to Asheville or Morgantown ... go to Elkhorn City or
Ashland, Ky ... or Nitro, WV. Bring your own water.

------
camelite
It's really bizarre the lengths to which the author goes to weave the
"criticism by outsiders" motif into a critique which ostensibly targets a
born-and-bred Appalacian. Three full introductory paragraphs about the guy who
says “The thing I like about Appalachians is that they don’t need much to be
happy. They’re content with making $24,000 year. They’re not showing off...” A
massive full-screen width "When outsiders tell the story" Two long paragraphs
introducing Vance without mentioning where he's from. A criticism of the
Netflix adaption as "filmmakers from elsewhere will put[ting] their visual
stamp on the region." 2 long paragraphs complaining about outsiders defining
its territorial extent. 2 paragraphs explaining how politicians and outside
media represent it. It goes on to promote it's own take on the region,
unsurprisingly dominated by artists, activists and academics. But the force
and worth of Vance's take would be ZERO if he was an outsider. They don't, of
course, lie at any point about Vance's background, but it's a flagrantly
dishonest critique nonetheless.

If the other commenter here is correct about Morganstown being only kind of
half-Appalacian, as opposed to their claim of hailing from the heart of
Appalacia, that really just puts the cherry on top.

~~~
jessaustin
_But the force and worth of Vance 's take would be ZERO if he was an
outsider._

JD Vance was born and raised in Middletown OH. This is far SW Ohio, on the
border with Indiana. (It was something of a surprise to me that _any_ part of
Ohio is considered Appalachian, but then I've spent most of my Ohio time in
Toledo. [0]) There are hills, but those hills are not the Appalachians. JD
Vance is from the Midwest. Has he actually claimed to be Appalachian? As far
as I can tell he has claimed to be a "hillbilly", which is fine but hardly
limited to Ohio or the Appalachians. My neighbors and I in the Ozarks have at
least as strong a claim to the term, but we don't seem to get as uptight about
this stuff as the folks back East get.

[0]
[https://lookingatappalachia.org/region](https://lookingatappalachia.org/region)

~~~
50208
Vance' detailed the large migration of Eastern Kentucky folks moving to Ohio /
Indiana for jobs in the generations before he was born ... and noting how they
all maintained a lifeline and frequented remaining Eastern Kentucky family.
His claim is solid IMO.

~~~
jessaustin
It's cool that he identifies with another region where he never lived and his
parents never lived. Lots of humans feel a special connection to places from
their family histories. The fact that his family hasn't lived there in several
generations (he was raised by grandparents in western Ohio) makes his broad
statements about the region and about his own family history with respect to
the region problematic. There's no need (besides a psychological one, perhaps)
to invoke something about eastern Kentucky to explain his mother's addictions.
There are addicts all over the world, including (especially, if reports in
other media are believed) in Ohio. If a similar book had been written
attributing family and personal dysfunction to a distant descent from any
other region or nation, it would have received a different reception. Why are
the Appalachians different?

~~~
50208
Technically, according to the book, his parents grew up there and he spent
summers there. I would say that is "lived". And as you surely know, a larger
percentage of the population is addicted to opiates in Appalachia than in most
other areas. I would say that is "problematic".

~~~
jessaustin
Citation sorely needed. Every time we read about the "opiate catastrophe",
Ohio or Indiana features prominently. You know, where he actually was born and
also graduated high school and university. I can't believe I'm having this
argument with a greenbean account. Why are you embarrassed to denigrate the
Appalachian region using a permanent pseudonym?

And this _is_ denigration, which would be accepted for no other region or
nation. In the first place, because it defies logic that some lawyer with no
particular sociological training would be accepted as some sort of authority
about a region he visited as a child during some summers when his hectic home
life allowed. Second, because blaming culture for the misfortunes of any
particular group of people is the oldest trick of racists, trickle-down
economists, and other awful people. This book is full of corny anecdotes
proving Vance is one of those awful people; he judged this person for showing
up to work late and that person for smoking too many cigarettes. Third,
because ITT we've seen _Morgantown WV_ questioned as "authentically
Appalachian"; this is serious double standards.

~~~
50208
My "pseudonym" or green account is not an issue. Google for any map of opioid
crisis ... you'll see the same thing: KY, WV OH lead the way. Just pointing
out you seem to have misspoke about his family and how "appalachiany" they
were. BTW: You haven't worked with that guy he was describing, the smoker that
shows up late (if at all) and takes breaks all the time? I've worked with
several of those types. His judgement is on target.
[https://www.statnews.com/2017/04/25/opioid-deaths-
map/](https://www.statnews.com/2017/04/25/opioid-deaths-map/)

~~~
jessaustin
Your link is interesting, Mr. Vance. It indicates that "drug overdose
mortality" has changed over time in various regions of USA. Apparently in 1999
all the Appalachian hillbillies lived in California and the Southwest. For
some reason they gradually moved East? Yours is a confusing worldview, to say
the least.

It's one thing to dislike a particular person, for whatever reason. It's quite
another to see that person as an exemplar of the negative attributes of all
the residents of another region where you have never lived. It's another yet
when the exemplary person you dislike is _also_ not from that region...

------
DanielBMarkham
This is important, not because of Appalachia but because of art itself.

As a history buff, I have a difficult time watching many "based on a true
story" movies or movies claiming to represent some important person or event
in history. It's for the same reason: people consume information through
narrative, and narrative forces reality into predefined tracks. This means
that any art form claiming to represent a people, region, person, or event
must necessarily be lying to you. The better the art the more likely the lies
are big ones.

And so storytellers are forced to lie, both by drastically-reducing scope and
by smoothing out the edges. Then they consolidate characters, generalize over
things that are not part of the narrative. They find a hero. They bump the
contrast up a bit to make the narrative consumption more enjoyable.

I love this, I love art and storytelling, but it means that there are great
masses of people who don't know jack squat about a ton of topics that they
think they do.

I grew up here. I've traveled all over, spending quite a bit of time in SF and
other very cosmopolitan places, but this is home. If I were forced to scope it
down, I'd probably start with the mountains, then the coal mines, then the
Scots-Irish cultural backdrop. The writer made an astute point when they
mentioned all the outsiders passing through and screwing us over in various
ways for their own selfish reasons. That's been a persistent theme, but it is
slowly dying off. There's also the tent revival culture, but that's also going
away.

The only other generality I'd add if I were scoping down a story about this
place is the stereotype of the ornery eccentric. This character has been
played up for comic relief over the years, many times making them out to be
simpletons. Instead, there are a lot of PhD-level folks who just don't give a
damn about society and don't want to. They're nice enough. They just want to
be left alone. You find that plenty of other places as well, but Appalachia
has a long history of those folks and we tend to cherish them, even if we're
making fun of them.

Andrew Jackson almost beat a man to death with his cane after he tried to
assassinate him (His gun misfired. He grabbed a backup. It also misfired.
Jackson commenced to beating on him and had to be pulled off). After the Civil
War, Ewell went back to his home, picked back up his law practice, and started
writing books about what a bunch of jackasses all those people who
misunderstood the war were. We always wave at people here: the best way to
tell if people are from far away is when they don't wave. Had a neighbor once
that when I waved at him he would make various obscene gestures and curse. He
just wanted to be left alone.

I wouldn't live anywhere else, and it's not because I haven't tried out a
bunch of other places. There's something about the mountains that keep calling
me back. I don't know what.

~~~
gerikson
Thanks for sharing your experiences. I've never visited Appalachia, and I'm
afraid my views are filtered through popular media. But even if a TV show like
"Justified" (I've seen the first 3 seasons) bends to narrative constraints, I
felt it took its setting and the people living there seriously. I'm sure I'm
missing a lot though.

Another piece of media that I felt was a strong statement about Appalachia is
Ever South[1] by Drive-by Truckers.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwM2yd2QZ2Q](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwM2yd2QZ2Q)
\- live rendition at KEXP

~~~
DanielBMarkham
Thanks. It's an interesting place.

I think the saddest thing about Appalachia is the fact that much of the really
interesting parts are disappearing. Everything in the country, including
Appalachia, is WalMart-i-fied. It's all strip malls and chain stores.
Everybody listens to the same music, surfs the same sites, and buys the same
swag. As a species we are homogenizing everything.

I have fond memories of walking into a country store in Grundy, Virginia where
I bought a coke. The guy behind the counter spoke in a language I couldn't
understand at first. Then I realized it was English. I have another fond
memory of walking into a startup where they were on their way to making
billions. These memories happened only several dozen miles from each other.
There's a lot of cool stuff going on here. I can guarantee that whatever media
you've consumed about it misled you in many ways.

~~~
50208
I had a eerily similar experience in the Pikeville, KY WalMart: Stopped in to
pick up some last minute groceries for a weekend excursion to the Russell
Fork. While walking around I heard a voice over the intercom that I literally
could not understand a word that was said. I looked at my wife (both of us
born and raised in KY) and said, "What was that?". She also had no idea what
was said. It was a different language, not really English.

------
harimau777
I understand where the author is coming from with wanting to depict a more
diverse/nuanced view of Appalachia.

However, I think that Hillbilly Elegy has been influential based specifically
on insight it gives into why the region supported someone like Trump. The
author may be correct that Hillbilly Elegy is incorrect; however, since the
article doesn't present an alternative explanation I'm not sure that it is
very useful.

------
frumiousirc
47 entries in uMatrix, a banner shows, no visible content. Today's web is
garbage.

------
50208
Seriously, if "Appalachia" is doing so great let's stop taking from wealthier
states and redirecting to these poor ones. Let them clean up their broken down
coal mines and polluted water resources. They can handle all the opium addicts
and disability deadbeats. They should be able to prop up their own economies
without handouts and programs from wealthier parts of the country. Let them
continue their war against the "War on Coal". Maybe they can eat their coal.
And don't get me started on the litter pretty much everywhere and trash dumped
in every river of my home state (KY). I'm sure they will eventually handle
that too.

~~~
dang
Regional flamewar isn't ok here, just like nationalistic flamewar or race
flamewar or other flamewars. Could you please not post like this to HN?

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
50208
Isn't this what the article "Hillbillies Need No Elegy" is about? Isn't this
about their response to a book about the region? I grew up in the region and
this is my experience.

~~~
dang
Your experience is welcome, but you need to actually share your experience.
That's very different from posting a putdown rant about a region and the
people who live there.

The fact that you grew up there is relevant to what you're saying, of course.
But it's not relevant to whether your comment broke the site guidelines.
Internet forums can't handle that level of nuance, and a comment like this is
going to lead to a big old flamewar by default.

