
Finding a tech co-founder is like trying to get married - Major_Grooves
http://wannabevc.wordpress.com/2013/09/26/finding-a-tech-co-founder-is-like-trying-to-get-married/
======
rch
As compared with being a prospective tech co-founder, which is more like
hanging out in a Vietnamese pool hall in a short dress. There's money to be
made, but you know the chances of being mistreated are pretty high.

~~~
AznHisoka
I think there is a difference though between a tech guy who wants to implement
an idea a business guy has, and a tech guy who HAS an idea already and wants a
business guy to help sell it.

The latter is hard to find too, so it's not like tech guys have it any easier.

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ludicast
Your simile is right, but I think the problem is always in part these things:

1) Programming isn't impossible to learn. An outsourced MVP might be a sign
that the non-tech founder is not fully committed (my grandpa owned a small
factory, but stressed the importance of knowing how to work all the equipment
even if he stayed in the office).

2) Technical people (of which I am one) frequently underestimate technical
challenges. I'm a good developer but at times have have massively missed
deadlines, released buggy/untested shite, and mis-predicted technologies (e.g.
I once thought Flex would take over the world).

So if we have worked for years in a field and made these mistakes, we have a
hard time trusting a non-technical person the even _guess_ at the
challenges/tradeoffs up ahead. And to tell when it's time to right the ship or
pivot from an idea they are attached to.

 __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __

So to flip it, you need to market yourself more than your project. I think the
best non-technical cofounder is somebody who is a some-time developer. As a
manager at Vanderlay Industries once said:

"If you think I'm looking for a guy to sit at a desk pushing around papers,
forget about it. I got enough headaches trying to manufacture the stuff."

------
sbarre
The other end of this would be that splitting up from a co-founder (especially
on less than great terms) is pretty much the same thing as getting a divorce,
in terms of stress, hassle and potential emotional toll...

~~~
Major_Grooves
Yup - that's what I've been saying - and potentially more expensive!

------
quaffapint
Of course, coming from the other side of the coin - trying to find a proper
business guy that you match well with is just as challenging. Unless you work
well and it just feels right, well, it will just be a marriage that won't
last.

~~~
Major_Grooves
True - trying to find a good match is difficult, but if we're honest, the tech
guys are in much higher demand than your "biz guy" (excuse the generalisations
- of course tech guy can be biz guy).

------
makerops
It is surprising you are having a tough time finding a tech co-founder; of all
the bullshit MBA types, you have traction, a site that seems fairly developed,
and a decent idea. In theory, I for one, after a cold intro, would be
interested in what you have to say, as opposed to my typical "I am too busy to
build your idea for you" default. Honestly, I think your biggest problem is
Java, it's just not going to hit a large enough cross section of 20/30 year
olds, that want to take a risk, that are into tech.

~~~
Major_Grooves
well tbh I don't have any trouble getting people initially interested. As you
say, I do have some filters that should separate me from the "MBA chaff" It's
getting the few people that I have felt I could work with to actually decide I
am the one for them.

hold on... "of all the bullshit MBA types" \- that means you are calling me
one of the bullshit MBA types! :( Perhaps you meant "compared to the usual
bullshit MBA types"? ;)

The Java point is interesting, and something I have discussed lots with
various people - including people who have contacted me today after posting
this blogpost. Half the people think I should stick to Java - it's a fine tool
for the job, half the people think I will need to switch language. No doubt
being in Java reduces my pool of potential co-founders.

~~~
al1x
There is no reason whatsoever to switch from Java. Ignore this noise.

~~~
makerops
Of course there is, if he can't find someone to work on it for equity, but can
convince someone to write it in PHP for equity.

~~~
al1x
Everyone knows Java. It's the first programming language taught to every
freshman Computer Science undergrad, everywhere in the world. Even most die
hard Rubyists know how to write Java. They may hate it, but they know it. Who
in the world teaches PHP?

~~~
dragonwriter
> Everyone knows Java.

Untrue.

> It's the first programming language taught to every freshman Computer
> Science undergrad, everywhere in the world.

Except where Python is used. Or something else.

> Even most die hard Rubyists know how to write Java.

Well, a lot of the move to Ruby (particularly Rails) was a reaction to
perceived issues with Java, so, yeah, Java skill is probably overrepresented
in the Ruby (particularly Rails) community.

> Who in the world teaches PHP?

Judging from a quick googling, plenty of places teach PHP.

------
integraton
The website referenced in the post, FounderDating, is unusable, unfortunately.
They got in trouble recently for using dark patterns to spam the linkedin
contacts of potential users' references, and when called out on it the CEO
tried to debate the use of the word "spam" when referring to their behavior:

[http://ilikestuffblog.com/2013/04/26/do-you-want-to-spam-
you...](http://ilikestuffblog.com/2013/04/26/do-you-want-to-spam-your-
linkedin-contacts-and-be-humiliated-try-founderdating/)

That you have to get approved and give references is also the biggest "f* you"
to potential users. Why would any sensible person waste their references' time
and goodwill with this nonsense?

Hopefully someone will make a worthwhile "founder dating" service that just
lets users find others who want to work on something and gives them a way to
make contact. Don't make users jump through hoops, and don't abuse users.

~~~
Major_Grooves
yeah - did you read the blog post (mine) I linked to?:
[http://wannabevc.wordpress.com/2013/04/28/founderdating-
nice...](http://wannabevc.wordpress.com/2013/04/28/founderdating-nice-concept-
dodgy-viral-mechanism/)

Not good.

------
gotrecruit
as the business guy in a tech startup, i feel your pain. everything you've
said, i've gone through myself on a smaller scale. the difference between us
is that i, fortunately or unfortunately, was blessed/cursed with a mildly
successful startup exit which gave me a substantial amount of money to build
my next startup. why unfortunately? i squandered almost all the money by
trying to make too bold of a leap from my unsophisticated first startup to
what i aspired to be a very technologically-driven and innovative startup. i
too used a contractor, except it wasn't just one dude but i hired an indian
software firm to build my product with a team. this was a terrible decision
because the machine i wanted to build was too ambitious, and far too complex
for the indians to understand.

anyway, i started seeking tech co-founders after the failure of that
outsourcing attempt. it was too hard - the few talented people in my school (i
was still in college at the time) who i befriended were either more interested
in gainful employment with competitive salaries after graduation, or they
wanted to do their own startups and not ride on mine. i believe i have
successfully sold my vision to a few of them, and a few of them have informed
me that when i described my ideas, it has changed the way they look at the
industry i'm tackling (advertising). some has expressed interest, but without
external funding and significant traction, they usually fizzle off after a
short period.

so anyway, right now i'm at a stage where since i can't find a tech cofounder,
i've decided to BECOME one myself. that's right - i'm returning to school for
a computer science degree. i start school in january next year, and hopefully
over the next 3-4 years i will build my skills up to a level where i'm either
a successful founder, or i'm one of those engineers you mentioned in your
article who are deluged with attractive offers.

good luck to you and your startup though, as a fellow entrepreneur i sincerely
wish you the best. it's a hard road to tread.

~~~
Major_Grooves
That's cool that you're going back to school to learn CS. Can I ask how old
you are? It's something I've thought about, but I'm 33, and at some point you
have to accept your skill set and focus on your strengths. If I was 23, I
would probably try to learn programming.

That sort of talk usually prompts a bunch of people to say - hey - you can
teach yourself to be quite decent in just 6 months! Possibly true - but that
requires a lot of spare time that I don't have. Also, there's no way I would
have been able to build Satago with 6months of experience.

In fact I briefly tried and started blogging about it:
[http://newbiehacker.wordpress.com/](http://newbiehacker.wordpress.com/)

~~~
gotrecruit
i'm 27 this year, and i too consider myself very old to return to school.
unfortunately, i'm also a foreigner (to US) and the only viable way i can
continue pursuing a startup in the US, where i want to be, is to return as a
student. so i guess there are a few different reasons i choose to return to
school, including getting a visa as well as pursuing technical knowledge.

if i was allowed to return on a different visa, i would not choose to go back
to sch for CS and would instead learn these stuff on my own. unfortunately, i
was denied such a visa and thus... here we are.

------
AznHisoka
While it's hard to find a tech co-founder, it's twice as hard to find a tech
co-founder willing to work on an existing codebase. Techies love to create new
things from scratch.

~~~
integraton
If there's existing code then it typically means one of two things: 1) it was
outsourced and, therefore, terrible and painful to work with or 2) there was a
developer who was either pushed off or decided to part ways with the project
at a very early stage, which isn't a good sign considering how self-described
"business" people often view and treat developers.

------
touristtam
"You need to have someone in the team that can fix a crashed server at 3am, or
burn the midnight oil to hit a new feature deadline."

Looks like this guy needs to write down the list of qualities his co-founder
will need to have and which one he is prepared to discuss; I mean if he is in
his late 20s, early 30s, it is likely he would choose someone around his age
and that's probably around the time someone is starting to be concerned about
settling down.

------
websitescenes
I have been looking for years. I have been applying to Ycombinator by myself.
I live in El Paso Texas, which apparently, is the equivalent of the moon when
it comes to finding like minded tech driven partners. This is a really
frustrating topic for me. I hope to move to San Francisco soon so I can be
around other developers.

------
gremlinsinc
personally as a Dev and entrepreneur with about 50 ideas for startups I would
like a confounding team to simply bounce ideas off and share the load... my
top idea is a CRM for rental property that - collect rent, schedule
maintenance, list rentals, handled roommate splits, background checks,
financials, and more... but would be nice to have another back end coder to
help(laravel), and a designer for front end, a business developer..
monetization would be 6-7$ per month per unit. Building something great can be
hard when you are a one person shop.

------
solve
Dear Europe,

Stop trying to turn middle-manger types into tech startup CEOs.

~~~
Major_Grooves
What does that even mean??

~~~
solve
It wasn't directed towards you in particular, I promise. It's just that since
I moved to Europe, I've noticed an incredible difference in how many middle-
manager types get funding from the accelerators here vs the US. In fact, here
they strongly encourage former middle-managers to become founders. In US
accelerators, often the whole founding team in engineers.

In response to your article, maybe you might consider showing more of a love
and understanding for technology? Perhaps even acknowledging that traditional
business knowledge may be a hindrance to a startup, instead of a clear
benefit? [1]

[1] [http://www.avc.com/a_vc/2012/01/the-management-team-while-
bu...](http://www.avc.com/a_vc/2012/01/the-management-team-while-building-
product.html)

~~~
jval
Don't insult people and then deny that you've insulted them and attempt to
back it up with a blog post that isn't an authority for what you just said.

OP worked at Rocket Internet for 2 years. Say what you like about them, there
is nothing 'traditional' or 'middle-manager' about a role like that. OP also
has a PhD in genetics and an MBA, a not-too-dissimilar set of qualifications
to US founders. You don't have to be a software engineer to have useful
startup skills...

~~~
solve
I am insulting Europe's tech business culture, yes, if that's what it takes
for us to begin to discuss this topic. Coming from me, that's saying a lot,
because I usually never find culture similarities that span the whole of
Europe. Please don't take this as a personal insult towards anyone.

The obsession with PHDs and higher level education.. great, another Euro-
obsession.

Look, I'm not saying that he can't be a great startup founder. I'm just
offering a different perspective for how to present one's self to potential
tech cofounders. Emphasizing "business skills" and higher level education is
definitely not the best way.

------
Shish2k
Easy to do by accident while drunk in Vegas?

~~~
Major_Grooves
I hadn't actually thought about trying to get a developer drunk.... Underhand
tactic, but it could work. Unfortunately I'd probably end up married to
Britney Spears!

------
al1x
Do you really _need_ a co-founder? I think co-founders are over-rated.

> You need to have someone in the team that can fix a crashed server at 3am,
> or burn the midnight oil to hit a new feature deadline.

Almost every contractor I've worked with on elance has been willing to work
whatever hours were required. For $5 an hour. Why give up precious equity for
something you could hire out for a few dollars an hour?

> To date I have been using a contractor to build Satago, and whilst he is
> very good (one of the best developers I’ve worked with to be honest, but
> sadly based very far away from me in Russia) the fear is that without the
> large chunk of equity that a co-founder would be working towards, he could
> just down tools, and then Satago would grind to a halt.

If I were you I would find a few other good developers to work with. Elance
has them in abundance and they'll be more than happy to work for you at
$5-$10/hr. (I prefer fixed-budget projects, personally.)

Here's how I get projects done: I take a few INDEPENDENT features from the
product roadmap, set clear expectations with the developers, hand off the
code, iterate, finalize, then pay my main developer to integrate their code
into the main code-base. In my case I'm the lead developer so I do the code
integration, in your case maybe it would be your contractor from Russia.

If the developers I've hired write good code and deliver as promised I keep
them. If they don't I move on to someone else. In one year I've gone through 6
developers and kept 2 of them. 2 competent, hard working, reliable developers.

When I said "set clear expectations", some expectations I've found useful to
establish with a contractor are: clearly define the project specifications
(you need to be able to tell them exactly what needs to be done), clearly
define the project deadlines (first iteration due in 2 weeks), clearly define
the budget ($300 for features X, Y, and Z), and clearly define the
communication requirements (respond to emails within 24 hours, provide
constant work status updates). It's also a good idea to let them know that
you're looking for developers with whom you can establish a long-term
relationship and that this small project they're about to work on is a test.
If they meet your expectations you will keep working with them, if they don't
you won't be repeating business.

I also make sure to tell them that the code needs to be thoroughly documented.
It helps the other developers who have to work with their code and it could
help you get an idea of what's going on under the hood.

In summary, I think technical co-founders are over-rated. I see no reason to
give up equity for something that can be easily contracted out. Ok, finding
good contractors isn't "easy". It takes a lot of time -- it's taken me 9
months to find 2 solid ones. But the ones I've found can reliably get the job
done, on time, within budget, guaranteed. I own 100% of my company.

~~~
Major_Grooves
well tbh, it depends how you determine "need". The need has really been driven
by the VCs - they all insist on it.

I don't think that is just because of the code-ownership. Doing this stuff is
tough and I really need to delegate to someone - and at this stage I can't
afford to hire someone on good money, so I'd rather find someone who is
apssionate about the idea and with whom I could work well.

In fact the technical development has gone very well - I am working with a
great contractor.

~~~
al1x
> The need has really been driven by the VCs

Do you really _need_ VC money? I mean _really_ need it. Most projects I've
come across can be bootstrapped.

> they all insist on it

Did you counter them with "I have 3 contractors at my disposal on-call, round-
the-clock"?

> I can't afford to hire someone on good money

£30k is a lot of money. Nearly $50,000 USD. How much do you have left? How
much are you paying your Russian developer? (too much, I'd bet). $50,000 is 5
developers salaries, full-time, from India, for a year.

> I'd rather find someone who is passionate about the idea and with whom I
> could work well.

If that's the direction you want to take it, I wish you all the best of luck.
I personally would go a different route.

> I am working with a great contractor.

It's entirely plausible that a business run by 1 technical contractor will
fall apart (life happens... I've had contractors break contract several times
due to personal issues that arose). It is, however, much less likely that a
business run by 5, competent, well managed developers will fall apart.

Just sharing what's worked for me. Best of luck whichever direction you go.

~~~
Major_Grooves
Thanks for comments.

No I don't really need VC money. I need more money, but I'm pretty sure I can
crowd-source it again via Seedrs.

£30k is a lot but not that much... I had to pay for non-tech stuff too. My
Russian dev is very good value compared to hiring in Europe. I'd really rather
have one top-notch guy than 5 ok guys. The quality of dev so far has been 1st
class.

~~~
al1x
> I'd really rather have one top-notch guy than 5 ok guys

1\. Your one top-notch guy who getting in a car crash would put your business
on hold for months until you could find a replacement. My 5 "ok" guys are
fault tolerant, providing constant development regardless of what life throws
at them.

2\. My 2 developers aren't just "ok", they're rock stars. 1st class all the
way. I pay them $5/hr. Don't underestimate India or the Philippines because
they're low cost. Don't overestimate the difficulty of programming. It may
seem hard to you but to someone who knows how to program it's incredibly
simple. To a fluent developer, writing code is like writing an essay.

