
Tech workers in China’s Silicon Valley face burnout before they reach 30 - theBashShell
https://www.scmp.com/tech/apps-social/article/3002533/no-sleep-no-sex-no-life-tech-workers-chinas-silicon-valley-face
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rafiki6
> “One thing Chinese founders or unicorns haven’t figured out is how to become
> a sustainable business. If you continue those [long hours] for 10 years,
> people will have no personal life any more, they will have no kids, they
> will go crazy,” Wingender said.

I wonder if this is simply symptomatic of a labor market imbalance. China has
a lot of people, and proportionally they have a lot of people who can do
software. Employers can demand what they want. This model is only sustainable
so long as the stream of labor is constant, which I suspect it is.

~~~
roymurdock
there are 2 inputs to the classical production function (e.g. the 2 things
businesses need to purchase/obtain in order to stay in business) - labor and
capital

if labor is continuing to improve its value (through education, training
business skills, learning new technology, etc.) then it continues to have
bargaining power in wage/contract negotiations

if a company can produce the same or more output with more capital (generally
cheaper/scales better) and less and/or cheaper (younger/less experienced)
labor, then it generally will

this is why we're seeing so many "ageist" layoffs at the large tech and
industrial companies in the west

old employees are very expensive (especially with pension programs) and
they're often not necessary to keep the output constant, or can be
replaced/outsourced, for the sake of pumping up equity/shareholder value
because cost cutting is currently a lot easier in tech than the
R&D/acquisitions needed for increased revenue gen

there are a few things that could happen to increase the bargaining power of
labor and increase wages/time off work (benefits): 1. the supply of labor
drops (a war/natural disaster) 2. the supply of capital drops
(luddites/natural disaster) 3. the quality of education increases 4. labor
unionizes 5. TFP (total factor productivity) increases

i don't know chinese labor market specifics but my general impression is that
it's much more cut throat because there are just so many more people, the tech
companies are playing catch-up in some sense to their western counterparts,
the jobs are more blue-collar oriented (rather than white-collar services jobs
which have more wiggle room), and because of cultural/government/societal
factors that prioritize hard work and family/society dynamics over individual
liberty and health

~~~
chillacy
Isn’t “the labor unionizes” just a special case of “the supply drops” since
labor unions enforce their power by controlling the supply of labor? (Eg
strikes)

~~~
roymurdock
yea there are other ways to increase labor bargaining power too i just listed
the most common off the top of my head

------
ctoth
Interesting, from 10 months ago: The Fate of Most Silicon Valley Drones: ‘Live
Work Work Work Die’ [0]

[0]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17201057](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17201057)

------
cheesymuffin
I honestly wonder whether anyone else has had my philosophical crisis this
past few years. I started to think all of my attempts to be part of an elite
group that's "changing the world" through technology are actually fucking it
up more.

Whether this is fueled by burnout or a feeling of uneasiness with world events
I can't be sure. I'm getting scared though because if I don't get my
motivation back in a few years being broke is going to suck.

~~~
jakeinspace
Yeah, I think anybody with some kind of moral compass in tech has that thought
at the back of their mind. When I was 18, the thought of working somewhere
like Google was the dream, but now I'm not so sure.

~~~
xiphias2
Google itself changed a lot. 13 years ago it was amazing to work there. In
2008 there was a feeling of slowing down luxury expenses, but the real change
was when Larry came instead of Eric Schmidt as a CEO: he's boring (and Sundar
is just his puppet) and forces boredom on the employees.

Eric Schmidt had a great way of saying no to employees while still making them
excited about the possibilities ahead of Google.

------
stuntkite
This sounds like my life. I come from poverty and now I make decent money and
my company doesn’t request this. I have really been trying to figure out how
to turn it off, or at least down. It’s very hard. I get depressed and a bit
paranoid if I’m not martyring myself for work.

~~~
noir_lord
Pick one day a week, doesn't matter which one, finish early and plan an
activity you enjoy.

Hell or high water stick to that activity on that day.

You'll naturally start to look forwards to that day.

Then make it two days and so on.

Don't try to make massive changes, make little ones that become habits.

As someone who went from working 70 hours a week (or more technically in
hindsight sitting behind a computer for 70 hours and working for _maybe_ 30 of
those productively to working 37 hrs a week with about the same level of
productivity) it matters.

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nacho2sweet
Same thing in the real Silicon Valley. Wasn't there adoring stories about
"dedicated" people sleeping under their desks or in parking lot vans. Doubt
everyone is banging out kids to move into their $3600/month studio apartments.

------
papermill
Doesn't every tech worker face burnout before they reach 30. Especially in
silicon valley or the startup scene. Why should it be any different in china.

It's pretty much high risk, high reward. The startup I worked at, we all slept
in our offices working 24/7 to reach milestones every few months. The point
work hard and get the company sold off within 10 years and retire.

------
swuecho
[https://996.icu/#/en_US](https://996.icu/#/en_US)

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dblotsky
And also in America’s Silicon Valley.

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goalieca
Maybe this is a controversial opinion but the world is too competitive but in
all the wrong ways.

~~~
jplayer01
Human society has been great at and thrived on exploiting people for a very
long time now. We'd probably have to go all the way back to hunter and
gatherer tribes before we find a point in time where that wasn't a normal fact
of life. Capitalism is just the most efficient form of exploitation that we've
found. It's not really controversial though.

~~~
goodfight
It's unfortunate that we can't come to a world agreement to work 32 hours a
week or something reasonable like that. There can still be a healthy
competition without all of us working ourselves to death.

~~~
EpicEng
Easy to say when you're salaried. Not so easy when you work for hourly wages.
It's not as though pay would suddenly increase by ~20%. Also, 40 hours / week
is already a decrease from what it was ~100 years ago.

~~~
SketchySeaBeast
100 years ago the average industrial working hours was apparently 45, so not
that many - I feel like today 40 is more the exception than the rule.

[https://www.jstor.org/stable/1820827?seq=1#metadata_info_tab...](https://www.jstor.org/stable/1820827?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents)

In fact the hours were starting to change to 40 that year. Funny coincidence.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hours_of_Work_(Industry)_Conve...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hours_of_Work_\(Industry\)_Convention,_1919)

Edit: Did some more research and in 1890 we have some truly ridiculous
numbers.
[http://www.pbs.org/livelyhood/workday/weekend/8hourday.html](http://www.pbs.org/livelyhood/workday/weekend/8hourday.html)

But there's a good reason we turned from those.

~~~
EpicEng
> I feel like today 40 is more the exception than the rule.

Is it though? Most people aren't you and I. Most are working hourly jobs and
their employers are not paying out overtime.

My only meaningful point is that a shorter work week would likely only benefit
those among us who are already better off (in terms of compensation.) I don't
see how it helps my friend working at the Chrysler plant.

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sokoloff
> A young couple want their own family but have no energy for sex after work.

Well, I'd recommend against having kids until that situation changes somehow.

If you're too tired for sex, what are you going to do with _an infant_?

~~~
reidjs
Correct me if I’m wrong but culturally I believe it’s much more important to
have children in China vs USA

~~~
mawburn
Sorry, but I don't see how this is relevant to what the other person said.
Important or not, if you're too tired for _sex_ then wtf are you going to do
with an infant?

~~~
ralph84
In China the infant gets shipped to the grandparents while the parents
continue working.

~~~
mc32
To add, often it’s these parents (potential grandparents to be) who pressure
their children to have children to continue the line. It goes beyond what
people are used to in the US, ie “when are you guys gonna have kids?” No, it’s
more, “hey, hurry up, you owe me grandkids now, that’s why I helped you with
mortgage, now get to work and deliver!”

~~~
dranka
One Chinese I talked to said there are two reasons that can play into this
pressure. First reason is that the grandparents probably had the same
situation themselves, they were raised by their grandparents, so now they have
a urge to take the parent role themselves since they never were that close
when their own children grew up. Second is the age aspect, they want to do
this before they get to old and tired.

------
AlexandrB
> Tech firms in China typically expect their employees to work long hours to
> prove their dedication.

> By the end of 2018, many tech companies were announcing plans to cut
> benefits, bonuses and jobs as they hunkered down amid the country’s worst
> economic slowdown in nearly three decades.

> Yang is pondering what comes next. With more than 10 years of experience, he
> now holds a mid-level position at a top-tier internet company but has
> reached a career ceiling. He compares himself to a construction worker, who
> can earn good money due to high work intensity but can easily be replaced by
> younger, cheaper labour.

There's a lesson here. Anyone who asks you to be "dedicated" to their business
or cause is looking to exploit you. When things get tough, they will not repay
your dedication in-kind.

~~~
kartan
> Anyone who asks you to be "dedicated" to their business or cause is looking
> to exploit you. When things get tough, they will not repay your dedication
> in-kind.

If you give your time for free to a company. The company will assume that your
time is worth nothing. And once the expectation is created, there is no
gratefulness for doing it. The only thing that you will get is a bad looks if
you stop giving your time for free because now it is expected.

~~~
lotsofpulp
Easier said than done when you're only other option is toiling in a field.

~~~
kartan
> Easier said than done when you're only other option is toiling in a field.

Yes. There is times that developer do not have a real option to say no. But,
it is good for junior developers to understand what they are agreeing to and
what are the consequences.

In the end businesses are going to ask for so much as legally is possible. If
15 hours/day where legalized, it is what people would get.

------
BadassFractal
Maybe this is an excessively callous view, but isn't all of this voluntary and
self-imposed? Is the expectation for the reader to pity their condition?

There is no totalitarian government that's relocating these people to a gulag
and forcing them into 996 labor work for their motherland. These are people
who are trying to break into upper middle class or beyond by pursuing high
risk high reward economic opportunities and sacrificing much in exchange. When
you start with nothing, and you want a lot, you end up getting exploited by a
system that has major leverage over you.

~~~
jjoonathan
> isn't all of this voluntary and self-imposed

> you end up getting exploited by a system that has major leverage over you

~~~
BadassFractal
Is it unfair to voluntarily give another party leverage over you? Or is that a
fair choice?

~~~
goodfight
I think it's less about fairness and more about the harsh facts of reality. In
a perfect world, the workers would be able to come to fair agreements with
employers and get exploited less.

