
Shenmue's Much-Hated Forklifts Feel Revolutionary Today - danso
https://kotaku.com/shenmues-much-hated-forklifts-feel-revolutionary-today-1833817433
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jmkd
Forklifts were a highlight for me.

When you took Ryu to the arcade to play Space Harrier etc there's a well-
established if indirect teasing of the fourth wall. After spending in-game
money to beat your in-game (in-game) high score, you begin to ask yourself
what on earth you are doing.

When Ryu gets the job as the forklift driver this same question leads directly
to a beautifully uncomfortable awareness of your self, and of your quest, and
of Ryu's.

I don't like the way this writer put it, but the forklifts were at least
evolutionary.

They follow a path set by some early 80s job-simulator games[1], but perhaps
most memorably by 1995's unreleased Desert Bus by Penn & Teller for the 3DO
[2].

[1] [https://www.digitiser2000.com/main-page/10-mundane-jobs-
that...](https://www.digitiser2000.com/main-page/10-mundane-jobs-that-got-
turned-into-games) [2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_%26_Teller%27s_Smoke_and_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_%26_Teller%27s_Smoke_and_Mirrors#Desert_Bus)

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bgeeek
I was wracking my brain trying to think of early '80s job-simulator games,
mostly because there aren't many at all. I'm not sure that I'd class Trashman,
Paperboy or Tapper (fond of all 3 btw) as job-simulators. Other than driving
and flightsims, I can't think of any from the early '80s :) Late '80s perhaps.

~~~
aasasd
Star Trader from '74 seems to be the inspiration for Trade Wars and Drugwars
of '84―they're essentially ‘grind simulators’ with the player looking at
sheets of numbers for a lot of the time. However, the apex of popularity of
such games was likely in the early-mid 90s when office drones apparently
sought to get their minds off the grind with a different grind, and countless
knock-offs appeared for DOS.

Still, this ‘spreadsheet’ gameplay is rather different from box stacking. Some
Game & Watch titles might be closer.

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myself248
I always took Tradewars and [Barren|Solar] Realms Elite to be descendents of
Lemonade Stand, 1973.

If there's an earlier instance in the genre, I don't know it.

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aasasd
Huh, Lemonade Stand does look closer to the static reports of Drugwars clones.

However, Chris Sherrick apparently specifically modeled Trade Wars on Star
Trader—according to Wikipedia. And, if those Realm Elites are anything like
_the other_ Elite, they should also involve travel like Star Trader and
unlike, fittingly, the Stand.

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whywhywhywhy
Loved the virtual flaneur aspect of this game, just wandering around the
neighborhood, checking out shops, buying things, talking to people, heading
home in the evening were so enjoyable.

My Summer Car is the only modern game that comes to mind that captures the
same kind of experience for me, if anyone has any other suggestions I'd love
to hear them.

~~~
Wowfunhappy
Persona 4 has a lot of this. Very strong sense of place—you feel bonded to the
town and the people.

~~~
JohnBooty
It really did establish a strong sense of place. And it was a somewhat unique
place, too - a "boring" and unremarkable suburb. Many (most?) of us grew up
someplace similar, but few games are set in such places because of the lack of
coolness.

Also: I can't look at a retail display of TVs without thinking of that game
and hearing the department store jingle!

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awill
One of my favourite games growing up. I was disappointed when the sequel
became an Xbox exclusive in the west. I imported the Japanese copy of Shenmue
II and played it on my Dreamcast. Fortunately there were English subtitles.

I of course picked up the Shenmue 1+2 remaster on PS4, and have backed the
kickstarter for the third (coming out this August!). You can bet the third
will have forklifts! 1+2 don't really hold up that well today, but like many
fans, I bought this purely for nostalgic reasons.

If I were to bet, I'd say Shenmue 3 will get metacritic scores in the 70s. It
feels like an impossible task honestly. How to update the game for 2019 whilst
also pleasing die-hard fans.

~~~
Merem
What do you mean? Shenmue II was released in Europe with Japanese audio and
subtitles even (which is the best kind of release, in my opinion).

I also think that both games hold up very well today. Played them for the
first time around seven years ago and was blown away. Personally, I prefer the
first one because it has a more concentrated setting as well as a nostalgic
atmosphere. Despite being rather familiar with games in general, I haven't
encountered anything comparable.

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83457
It wasn't released in the US. I believe Microsoft bought the rights to make it
an Xbox exclusive here.

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b_tterc_p
I was too stupid to do drive the forklift when I played this as a kid. Maybe I
was missing something obvious but I recall getting stuck in the game and just
doing my forklift job so poorly that I was not allowed to advance for months
of in game time.

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83457
I recall the controls took some getting used to. I believe the left/right
controls actually started movement of a slow turning wheel on the forklift
that moved at a constant rate that then turned the wheels, as opposed to
direct/real-time input like racing games.

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lostgame
The Dreamcast is by far and large my favourite console to actually _play_
games on.

The level of innovation and quality of software was astounding.

And, while they suffered from awful battery life, the little VMU visual memory
cards were adorable.

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outericky
I barely remember the forklifting... All I seem to remember is everyone saying
"Oh, hello Ryo" and talking about "that day, when the snow turned to rain"

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MrMember
Do you know where I can find some sailors?

What can you tell me about the four wudu?

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colanderman
Games now have crates _on_ forklifts, but still are missing the essential
element connecting the two, the pallet? [1]

[1]
[http://www.oldmanmurray.com/features/39.html](http://www.oldmanmurray.com/features/39.html)

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minikites
The idea of a game playing the player is also explored in Spec Ops: The Line
where (according to the developers) a valid response to the atrocities in the
game is to simply stop playing the game, giving up before completing it.

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jahabrewer
Oh man, Spec Ops is one of my top games, but I've only played it once. Same
feeling as watching Requiem for a Dream--once is enough. It's difficult to
recommend it to people without giving away the experience of walking in to it
thinking "it's just another mideast shooter".

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ekianjo
Never hated the forklift. A claim without basis, common on clickbaity Kotaku.

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tdb7893
A ton of other people hated it though. Is there a reason people hate Kotaku so
much? It's always seemed like a pretty normal game site to me except for the
fact it leans a little more liberal on social issues.

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livueta
Social issues definitely seem like part of it now, but Kotaku was disliked in
hardcore communities well before Gamergate or any of that other nonsense. My
recollections of late-2000s Kotaku are similar to how I feel today about a lot
of tech publications where personal expertise in their subject area makes it
painfully obvious that they don't really know what they're talking about.

When you spend hundreds to thousands of hours mastering a game and immersing
yourself in the culture surrounding it, an article on "your" game, unless it's
written by someone as keyed-in to the meta as you are, is likely to come off
as a series of poorly informed hot takes. In other words, generalist
journalists frequently have a hard time developing the level of experience in
a particular area necessary to write about it in such a way that's not
laughable to the "experts". This effect is particularly bad in video games,
where the amount of rabbit holes you can pour yourself into is practically
uncountable. Everyone's an expert on something, and it only takes one crappy
article on your pet game to destroy your confidence in anything that outlet
produces, even if you lack the experience to see the lie in each and every
piece.

~~~
smacktoward
_> When you spend hundreds to thousands of hours mastering a game and
immersing yourself in the culture surrounding it, an article on "your" game,
unless it's written by someone as keyed-in to the meta as you are, is likely
to come off as a series of poorly informed hot takes. In other words,
generalist journalists frequently have a hard time developing the level of
experience in a particular area necessary to write about it in such a way
that's not laughable to the "experts"._

An alternate way to say this is that these communities are incredibly insular,
and the most active participants work hard to keep them that way by using
their status in the group to set themselves up as gatekeepers, policing the
bounds of acceptable opinion. Perspectives that differ from that of the in-
group threaten their status, so they react against them violently in order to
signal to the group that they're still in charge, nothing to see here, move
along.

These gatekeepers also often see their "elite" status in the group as a
fundamental part of their self-worth, so they interpret challenges to their
ideas as attacks on them personally, and respond in kind. And it doesn't help
either that gaming communities tend to disproportionately attract teenagers
and young adults, who are right at that moment in life when their passions
tend to run hottest.

~~~
s_m_t
Never really seen anything like this

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dsfyu404ed
>Driving with the forks up

I guess that's what passes for realism in the pre-Klaus[1] era of forklift
video game design.

[1][https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPpwLCvPAME](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPpwLCvPAME)

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curtisalbert
why would so many hate Kotaku? I never found anything wrong with it. Maybe
even the liberal aspect should make it more appealing. [https://cheapest-
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service.com/rewrite-my-essay/)

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vertline3
Who hated forklift driving? Also lots of spoilers here.

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FactolSarin
The game is 20 years old. I think the spoiler warning period has lapsed.

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danso
This made me think on a tangent, on whether divulging spoilers for an
interactive experience have a heavier "stigma" than for books or movies. Five
or 10 years from now, or even a month from now, I can't imagine being offended
if someone were to spoil who dies in "Avengers: Infinity War", or the 3rd
season of GoT. Whereas a video game is much more inherently about the
"journey" \-- e.g. you have to do some work to get to the end. I think I'd be
annoyed if people were just spoiling "The Last of Us" 10 years after its
release (which is likely to be after its sequel is released).

That said, I don't think I'll ever find time to play the original Shenmue. But
hearing more details about why it has cultivated such a fond following makes
me very interested in playing its Kickstarted sequel.

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0xADADA
best game ever.

~~~
LanceH
Are you a sailor?

