
Intel Announces 9th Gen Core CPUs - Tomte
https://www.anandtech.com/show/13401/intel-9th-gen-cpus-9900k-9700k-9600k
======
berbec
Once again it's amazing what Intel finds in the couch cushions when pushed by
AMD. i7 consumer chips went from 4-core to 8-core since Ryzen launched. Where
was this innovation before? Oh yeah, why would they bother. Ryzen is the best
thing to happen to CPU architecture in years, even if you don't buy one.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
Yeah, I wouldn't buy a Ryzen, but I'm glad competition is forcing Intel to put
the work in again. They sat on their laurels for a really long time.

~~~
blihp
Dunno... this looks like the bare minimum Intel thought they could get away
with. Sure, they added a couple cores but you give up HT on many models, no
Spectre/Meltdown architectural fixes (ok, might still be early to expect
that), iGPU stagnant, cutting back on cache size, every variant still
significantly more expensive than Ryzen counterpart. Be curious to see how the
overall performance comes out. It doesn't look so much like they're trying to
compete as they are trying to not compete with their server processors. I'll
probably be going Ryzen when I'm next in the market.

~~~
dunpeal
Yeah, this looks very underwhelming. I also think you're letting them off too
easy with "too early to expect a Spectre/Meltdown fix".

This is a critical security bug that was discovered __over a year ago __.
Intel just ignoring the problem and casually releasing yet another
(underwhelming) upgrade that doesn 't address it all...

The fact anyone accepts that just goes to show how low our expectations have
dipped when it comes to Intel.

~~~
blihp
Not letting them off, just trying to set realistic expectations. I'm not in
chip design, but everything I've seen on the subject suggests that 2-3 years
from design to fabrication is the general (minimum) ETA on architectural
fixes. The testing needs to be extensive or they risk releasing a worse
problem to the world.

~~~
dunpeal
They were aware of these bugs for (at least) 16 months. They could delay
releasing new chips until they addressed the problem, even if it took them
another year. They did not. Instead, they released a chip with a widely known
critical vulnerability. That's on them.

~~~
vbezhenar
Metldown is already fixed by software. So their hardware fixes will just
improve performance in some workloads and those workloads are typical for
servers, I know that on my PC meltdown fixes did not affect performance in any
noticeable way.

------
josu

      Core Generation | Microarchitecture | Process Node | Release Year 
     -----------------|-------------------|--------------|-------------- 
      2nd             | Sandy Bridge      | 32nm         | 2011         
      3rd             | Ivy  Bridge       | 22nm         | 2012         
      4th             | Haswell           | 22nm         | 2013         
      5th             | Broadwell         | 14nm         | 2014         
      6th             | Skylake           | 14nm         | 2015         
      7th             | Kaby Lake         | 14nm+        | 2016         
      8th             | Kaby Lake-R       | 14nm+        | 2017         
                      | Coffee Lake-S     | 14nm++       | 2017-2018    
                      | Kaby Lake-G       | 14nm+        | 2018         
                      | Coffee Lake-U/H   | 14nm++       | 2018         
                      | Whiskey Lake-U    | 14nm++       | 2018         
                      | Amber Lake-Y      | 14nm+        | 2018         
                      | Cannon Lake-U     | 10nm         | 2017*        
      9th             | C. Lake Refre     | 14nm%        | 2018
    
    

* Single CPU For Revenue

% Intel '14nm Class'

~~~
Aardwolf
Why did they introduce so confusingly many microarchitecture names for 8th
gen...

~~~
szatkus
Because 10nm is horribly delayed. Skylake was going to be replaced by Cannon
Lake, but instead they introduced bunch of Skylake's flavours (and one
horrible chip based on Cannon Lake which was just a marketing stunt).

~~~
phinnaeus
Are you referring to the 8086k?

~~~
bpye
Na, the i3 8121U [1] is actually a 10nm part but it is worse than Intel's 14nm
parts.

[1] -
[https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/intel/core_i3/i3-8121u](https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/intel/core_i3/i3-8121u)

------
tetrazine
One important niche where Intel is ripe to lose their lead is deep learning
workstations. The issue at hand: they don't put high enough PCIe lane counts
on all but the highest end desktop processors. It's unclear if these
processors will address that (I can't find lane counts on a quick google
search).

Let's say you want to run 4 GPUs off your CPU for a powerful workstation or
small server (e.g. for a research group). There's debate over whether you need
to run cards in x8 or x16 mode for most deep learning applications, so let's
say 8x as a conservative choice. That means you need 32 lanes (or 16 for just
two cards). But your drive and other peripherals might take some lanes too. So
40 looks like a safer number. Easy enough to find that on a motherboard...

Most of the mid-high range Intel desktop CPUs only have _16_ lanes total. Base
model Threadripper (1900x) which is price-competitive with those has 64. You
can go to Xeon but that (AFAIK) can be problematic in several ways for
midrange or mixed use workstations (no integrated graphics, less mobo
selection for the needed features).

I think this is pretty important. If enough researchers go to Ryzen then math
libraries will get written there and the lead that libs like MKL provide could
be nullified[0]. This will filter into the server market, where CPU is used
even in deep learning production deployments (e.g. for inference servers). And
having lower end processors is important because there are lots of independent
researchers doing important work in the field who don't have huge budgets, as
well as academics who can't get budget and might be spending out of pocket on
their workstation.

[0] I'll admit I don't know enough about the math hardware in Ryzen vs Intel
to say if this is possible.

~~~
brigade
Threadripper CPUs might be price competitive with LGA1151 CPUs, but X399
motherboards _start_ at more than the lower-end CPUs; combined you really
should be comparing to Intel's HEDT X299 platform, which starts at about the
same overall price for motherboard+CPU. And Intel's HEDT chips all have 44
lanes this year thanks to Threadripper.

More importantly for deep learning (this price difference is lost in the cost
of GPUs), AFAIK all X399 motherboards for Threadripper are set up as
16x/8x/16x/8x, whereas there are X299 motherboards with PCIe switches that
give you 16x/16x/16x/16x with neighboring GPUs sharing bandwidth. For deep
learning, each individual GPU having 16 lanes of bandwidth is more important
than having to share with another GPU.

~~~
tetrazine
I think you're right about this for many people but not all.

Intel stepping up the lane counts in HEDT is definitely a good reactionary
move but won't affect the budget-constrained scenarios I discussed until a few
years from now because you can just buy a couple generations back. I might be
wrong but I believe many X299 chips before gen 9 had 16-24 lanes?

I also don't think your point about price difference insignificance is
universally applicable because buying extra GPUs over time is quite common and
having an extensible box with 1-2 GPUs at the start is potentially a good
move. As for the PCIe switches on the X399 chipset IMO this depends on the
assertion that 16x is X% better than 8x. This depends on use case and analysis
of the penalty you get at 8x vary but many people would take a 10-15% penalty
down the road @ 4 cards (really 5-7.5% because it only affects 2/4 cards) to
save money now.

I built a box with Intel because I had the capital, and most people at an
industry job probably should, but if you read forum and mailing list threads
many people are faced with this economic decision and are going TR - I see
quite a few academics doing this. Math libraries are a good thesis topic :)

------
mothsonasloth
Its funny how about 4 years ago when I was building my last gaming rig people
were saying don't bother with AMD unless you're getting a GPU.

Oh how the tables have turned.

Speaking of which, time for a new gaming rig...

~~~
theandrewbailey
A 4 year old gaming CPU should still be plenty today. It's great that we're
getting more cores, but they aren't much faster than the old ones, and many
games haven't figured out how to use more than about 4.

GPUs? I have a few hundred old unplayed games on Steam that I'm working
through. See you next gen!

~~~
babypuncher
I would hope games know how to use more than 4 cores seeing as the current
crop of consoles all have 8-core APUs, even if one or two of those cores are
reserved for the OS/network stack.

~~~
paulmd
XB1 and PS4 have been out with their 8-core APUs for 5 years now, hasn't
changed the importance of single-threaded performance. Amdahl's law still
applies.

------
jimnotgym
I work a lot with lower-mid end office desktops, I3 sort of level. Last year I
bought my daughter a Ryzen 3 mobo and processor for £140, and I was blown away
by how much better it was than the work machines. I didn't do any
benchmarking, but in terms of feel, it felt so much faster. Btw £140 is
bargain basement price for a cpu and mobo in the UK, yet this was a regular
price for a relatively new set up.

I am not really being offered Ryzens at work though. I get sent lots of Dell
and HP offers and they are all Intel atm. I wonder if this is about to change?

~~~
d0100
Did you add an SSD?

~~~
jimnotgym
Nope, like for like 5400 HDD

------
jordigh
All I really want to know is, are they still backdoored? Can we get them
without Intel ME/AMT?

~~~
_emacsomancer_
Of course they are. The advantage is that you get a full MINIX install on
newer MEs!

------
josu
2nd Sandy Bridge 32nm 2011

3rd Ivy Bridge 22nm 2012

4th Haswell 22nm 2013

5th Broadwell 14nm 2014

6th Skylake 14nm 2015

7th Kaby Lake 14nm+ 2016

8th Kaby Lake-R 14nm+ 2017

Coffee Lake-S 14nm++ 2017-2018

Kaby Lake-G 14nm+ 2018

Coffee Lake-U/H 14nm++ 2018

Whiskey Lake-U 14nm++ 2018

Amber Lake-Y 14nm+ 2018

Cannon Lake-U 10nm 2017*

9th C. Lake Refre 14nm __2018

* Single CPU For Revenue

 __Intel '14nm Class'

------
ocdtrekkie
Hardware mitigations for Meltdown and Spectre are the real heroes here, and
the main reason I've been holding off on building a new machine. Once I can
find the ninth gen stuff without being bled dry on cost, I'll be building with
these.

~~~
MattSteelblade
From the article:

"What makes this a little different are the eight-core products. In order to
make these, Intel had to create new die masks for the manufacturing line, as
their previous masks only went up to six cores (and before that, four cores).
This would, theoretically, give Intel a chance to implement some of the
hardware mitigations for Spectre/Meltdown. As of the time of writing, we have
not been given any indication that this is the case, perhaps due to the core
design being essentially a variant of Skylake in a new processor. We will have
to wait until a new microarchitecture comes to the forefront to see any
changes."

~~~
ocdtrekkie
I must've read a different article than the one linked here, which said these
_were_ the first generation with those mitigations. :/

~~~
iforgotpassword
That would be great if true, do you have a link?

~~~
tedunangst
That's what ars claims. [https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/10/intels-new-
performan...](https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/10/intels-new-performance-
desktop-lineup-an-overclockable-xeon-9th-gen-core/)

~~~
bscphil
That's interesting. Would love to hear something definitive, as I've been
holding off on all new computer purchases until something changes, or until
you can get a powerful AMD chip in a high quality laptop like the Dell XPS
line.

------
growlist
We have Ryzen now..

~~~
jaxtellerSoA
Yup. Oh wow, Intel you have an 8 core 16 thread chip for $488. Which probably
has the same security flaws as their current chips, so say goodbye to the
hyperthreading, since that should be disabled. Or I can get the Ryzen 7 2700X
for $320. Gee, which one should I choose?

~~~
polskibus
Please note that hyperthreading may not have the same benefits in AMD and
Intel.

From
[https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~pavlo/papers/p2209-kersten.pdf](https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~pavlo/papers/p2209-kersten.pdf)

"The only significant difference between the two platforms is that, although
both platforms offer 2-way Simultaneous Multi-Threading (SMT), Intel’s hyper-
threading implementation seems to be much better. On the Skylake, we see a
performance boost from hyper- threading for all queries. On the AMD system,
the benefit of SMT is either very small, and for some queries the use of
hyper-threads results in a performance degradation."

~~~
gamedevs_cancer
Most synthetic benchmarks have proven amd's SMT scales far better than
hyperthreading. It might be the paper's domain that's more suited for HT.
Moreover, they appear to be using AVX instructions, which are arguably faster,
but don't provide an accurate picture on hyperthreading performance

------
coretx
Reading about a new Intel ME (11) makes me slightly anxious and worried.
Reading about Intel ME and a integrated Wifi MAC & integrated SDXC makes me
very anxious and worried, as I am right now. In the past janking a Intel nic
out of a machine and replacing it by a different one knocked out some Intel ME
"features"; it's something that can hardly be done with that integrated Wifi
MAC i'm afraid.

------
fabian2k
It'll be interesting how far away from the offical $488 price the 9900K will
end up. Due to the limited supply, the prices for the existing high-end Intel
processors are not competitive anymore right now. The 8700K costs around 490€
right now here, that's something like a 150€ premium compared to previous
prices.

I would suspect that the 9900K will also end up being priced way above the
official price.

------
013a
I can't believe they're dropping hyperthreading on the i5/i7 models. Depending
on what kind of inter-generational process improvements we see and how those
translate to performance boosts, it seems possible that the 8700k could have
higher multicore performance than the 9700k, especially given that maxing out
8+0 physical cores will stress the turbo thermals more than 6+6.

But for single core perf/gaming... these things are going to be unmatched.
Stock turbo frequency of 4.9 ghz? You could OC to over 5ghz with _ease_.

I think I'm beginning to understand Intel's market positioning with these.
They know that for most consumers, even including gamers, single core perf
dominates everything. So if they can drop some multicore perf by killing
hyperthreading, and trade that for a higher turbo, that's a huge win for their
bread and butter. And they'll sell you the i9 or Xeon if you need the higher
core counts, though maybe they recognize that the HEDT segment is already
being dominated by AMD so its back to the labs to R&D a strategy for that.

------
nik736
The new i7 without HT and a lower base clock, shouldn't the i7-8700k overall
be faster than?

~~~
miahi
Base clock is meaningless now. HT performance depends on the application
(sometimes HT cores mean only a few percents of improvement or performance
decrease - it depends on what the "main" core does, as they share resources).
The new 9700K is not something I would upgrade to (from 8700K), but it's
surely the way to go if you upgrade from an older system and you stick with
Intel.

~~~
polskibus
No it's not. We see linear improvement of c# compilation speed with clock
speed.

------
modzu
big deal. if you're chasing new cpus for more ghz you're a dog chasing your
tail..

It would be nice to see some low voltage cpus that aren't just reserved for
OEMs only.. unfortunately this is one area AMD hasn't pressured intel (amds
offerings all > 100W)

~~~
vetinari
Ryzen CPUs are 65W and 95W; Threadrippers are over 100W.

------
stormcrowsx
That is the ugliest CPU box on the market

~~~
fermienrico
Have you seen AMD's wankery? This is all due to the awful taste of the "Gamer"
crowd. Gaming performance, "VR Ready" on every product, big retail experience,
etc. - The whole RGB enchilada.

The marketing team does whatever the customers demand and value.

~~~
Sohcahtoa82
As a gamer, this is pretty rude.

I go to an event called PDXLAN twice a year. It was previously a 550-person
event, until this next one and future ones where we've expanded into a new
venue and will have 800 gamers present with the possible option of further
expanding to 3,200 in the future. It's one of the largest bring-your-own-
computer events in the USA, sponsored by nVidia, AMD, Intel, and several other
companies that produce hardware for gamers.

We RGB our cases and equipment because it's fun to personalize your stuff.
There are over 500 people there, and seeing so many unique setups is
entertaining. We've had someone make their computer look like a boombox [0], a
centipede [1], or Rey's Speeder from Star Wars [2], complete with custom
painted mouse and keyboard.

You might think it's all silly and stupid, but we get a lot of entertainment
out of it.

[0]
[https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1330926013706204&set...](https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1330926013706204&set=g.2204769514&type=1&theater&ifg=1)

[1]
[https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10209758136100415&se...](https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10209758136100415&set=g.2204769514&type=1&theater&ifg=1)

[2]
[http://www.pdxlan.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=216438&sid=28fa...](http://www.pdxlan.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=216438&sid=28faa4fe6e8c1124c564601bcbe9e755)

~~~
jackpeterfletch
If thats your thing, thats fine, but so often it means that the 'gamery'
aesthetic is the only option if you want high end hardware.

Im a professional software engineer, that likes to game, but doesn't wish to
outwardly identify with it, I like interior design, and I like nice clean
hardware that fits in with my flat.

This excludes me from having the top end Acer Predator Monitor, because its
made to look like a throbbing red quantum spaceship component, which it isnt,
its just a damn display, and it would look ridiculous.

If you want a laptop with decent GPU hardware, most of the options have all
these edges, and lights, dressed up to look like some kind of weapon or
something. If I need to bring my laptop to a meeting, I can't have that and
and be taken seriously.

It just feels childish, and its hard to believe that the number of people like
me isn't enough for the manufacturers to support that.

~~~
fermienrico
We are trying to build a startup around this - contact us at
fermi.design@gmail.com if you are interested.

------
LinuxBender
Are these all the version of the i9? Do they have a version with more L3
cache?

~~~
ac29
The rest of the i9 are in the HEDT platform, and yes, the have more L3:
[https://www.anandtech.com/show/13402/intel-basin-falls-
refre...](https://www.anandtech.com/show/13402/intel-basin-falls-refresh-
core-i9-9980xe)

~~~
LinuxBender
Very nice. Pricey, but nice. Thankyou!

------
tylerplz
I was half hoping that Intel would differentiate themselves from AMD by
increasing frequency instead of playing the number-of-cores game against AMD..
Or is further push in frequency meaningless?

~~~
paulmd
Stock clocks are up and the solder is reportedly allowing a slight increase in
peak OC.

Frequency is mostly determined by process node and can't be increased without
a die shrink. In fact, early 10nm nodes will actually be slower than what
Intel can do on their highly-refined 14nm node. Jokes aside, 14+++ is actually
amazingly fast.

------
antaviana
I wonder if the Mac Mini will get an upgrade.

~~~
kbd
This was my first thought as well, since Apple is coming out with (supposedly)
"pro-focused" new Minis very shortly.

------
purplezooey
Why do they call all their first table columns AnandTech. That's annoying.

------
bsenftner
I'm confused, I just got a Dell with an i9-7940x, it has 14 cores, for 28
CPUs. Why is this processor not mentioned?

~~~
slivym
The Intel product lines going iX-YZ00(x) where X=Product Line, Y= Generation,
Z = Spec, and (x) is present for chips that can be overclocked. So yours is a
top product line 7th gen unlocked chip.

~~~
marssaxman
Thank you for the explanation! I completely lost track of Intel processor
branding after the "Core"/"Core 2"/"Core 2 Duo" era, and these model names
have been a complete mystery.

------
gamedevs_cancer
I bought an intel chip a few months ago because ryzen 7nm isn't out yet and I
use a high frequency display. At this point, it's blatantly obvious intel is
playing catchup, with worse SMT,worse node size,and less flexible architecture

~~~
en4bz
Node sizes are not directly comparable and haven't been for years. It's all
marketing BS. Please stop perpetuating this myth. Intel's 14nm process is
still better than everyone else's and will be until at least the release of
TSMC 7nm.

~~~
etaoins
TMSC’s 7nm is in volume manufacturing. It’s used for the A12 SOC in the latest
iPhones.

------
zenovision
Jet another 14nm CPU... so don't expect any noticeable performance boost. Even
low-voltage iPhone XS CPU has the same single core performance as top-notch
Intel processors for workstations... Apple is already using 7nm, but Intel
needs at least 1-2 years more to make their 10nm manufacturing process
working. This is what happend when a tech company only cares about high margin
and nothing else.

~~~
jcelerier
> Even low-voltage iPhone XS CPU has the same single core performance as top-
> notch Intel processors for workstations...

yeah right, if that was the case I'd rig up a compile farm with iphones

~~~
zenovision
I have a proof for you. Please check the single core performance here:

iPhone XS: 4794 scores
[https://browser.geekbench.com/ios_devices/56](https://browser.geekbench.com/ios_devices/56)

The newest Xeon E-2176M: 4900 scores
[https://browser.geekbench.com/processors/2500](https://browser.geekbench.com/processors/2500)

the difference is only 2%...

~~~
nwallin
That's a low power laptop cpu, not a workstation cpu.

~~~
zenovision
Actually, this CPU is in 15 fastest single core CPUs ever, including all
desktop processors:
[https://www.cpubenchmark.net/singleThread.html](https://www.cpubenchmark.net/singleThread.html)

