
Chemical flavorings found in e-cigarettes linked to lung disease - kevindeasis
http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2015/12/popcorn-lung-seen-in-e-cigarette-smokers/?
======
notlisted
In _some_ e-cigarette _flavors_. Look at the actual study [1] and you'll see
the dangers are mainly limited to some buttery/fruity/nutty flavors. The fact
that Diacetyl occurs at much higher concentrations in regular cigarettes goes
unmentioned. 'Popcorn lung' disease occurred with workers who were exposed to
enough Diacetyl vapor in a day as an e-cig 'smoker' would be in a month.
Finally, I'll leave the conclusion of the UK Department of Health [2] :
"E-cigarettes around 95% less harmful than tobacco estimates landmark review"

As indicated in the second link, the scaremongering of studies such as this
one mislead smokers into thinking that e-cigarettes are about as dangerous as
regular ones. The dangers are not equivalent, by a long shot. Every smoker
that switches to e-cigs, as I did 3 years ago after a 20 year habit and three
failed attempts to quit, is much better off. Haven't smoked a 'real' one
since. I know at least 50 people with the same experience (anecdotal, I know,
but still...).

[1] [http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/wp-
content/uploads/advpub/2015/12/e...](http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/wp-
content/uploads/advpub/2015/12/ehp.1510185.acco.pdf) [2]
[https://www.gov.uk/government/news/e-cigarettes-
around-95-le...](https://www.gov.uk/government/news/e-cigarettes-
around-95-less-harmful-than-tobacco-estimates-landmark-review)

~~~
ptaipale
Indeed. It seems that two very different sects combine forces in the battle
against e-cigs: traditional tobacco industry, who sees e-cig transition as a
threat, and health authorities and activists, who see second-best (e-cigs) as
the greatest threat to what they think is best (total abstinence).

This unholy alliance seems unfortunately quite strong. I'm not a smoker, but
I'm all for every smoker around me converting to e-cigs, and even at the
"risk" of having some non-smokers start e-cigs it's really a no contest: if
some e-cig flavourings are unhealthy, investigate and regulate those, but
please please do not stop the transition which is great for absolutely
everybody (except traditional tobacco providers).

~~~
jwr
The transition is indeed an improvement, but there is a dangerous myth
spreading: that e-cigarette smoke (as exhaled by smokers) is "completely
harmless". I've heard people describe it as "just water vapor".

Well it isn't harmless, and transitioning from a traditional tobacco cigarette
to an e-cigarette doesn't mean you can just start smoking everywhere.

~~~
TeMPOraL
So let's put this fair - e-cigarette smoke is basically the same stuff we've
been using for ages as the stage smoke. If you aren't afraid of going to a
concert, you shouldn't be afraid of passive e-cig smoking either.

~~~
metalliqaz
I'm less concerned with the safety of second-hand vapor than the offensive
odor. It has been so nice these past few years to be able to go to bars and
restaurants and not come back with my entire wardrobe reeking. I don't want to
give that up.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Fair enough. I sympathize with that concern, though as 'ptaipale pointed out,
at this point you should start worrying about perfumes as well. But it's no
longer about danger - it's just about being nice to other people.

~~~
ptaipale
With perfumes it's also a somewhat actual health hazard, for some people (if
someone is allergic or over-sensitive).

For me it is just an inconvenience, but I do feel a bit sick in department
stores because in so many of them, you have to enter via the 1st floor
fragrance department. But apparently that makes commercial sense, i.e. the
additional sales to impulsive perfume-buyers (profiled mostly to be women) is
more important than the non-sales of anything to me.

------
srameshc
I am sure production of Vape juice is totally unregulated. I have heard tales
where budding entrepreneurs are starting their own Vape Juice factories.
People who just understand a little bit of what goes in are running these
production units. All they need is a minimum bulk order and they will label
and package as per one's wish. So there are many brands right now that are
being sold in stores but no body knows a thing about it, probably not even the
guys who runs the manufacturing if those are harmful or not. Bottom line is
don't trust the nicely packaged bottles of that harmful liquid. You never know
what is inside.

------
binarymax
Nicotine users just can't catch a break.

Based on the real subject of the article, diacetyl, I'm surprised the chemical
has not been regulated by now.

Here is the federal register snippet [0]

§184.1278 Diacetyl.

(a) Diacetyl (C4H6O2, CAS Reg. No. 431-03-8) is a clear yellow to yellowish
green liquid with a strong pungent odor. It is also known as 2,3-butanedione
and is chemically synthesized from methyl ethyl ketone. It is miscible in
water, glycerin, alcohol, and ether, and in very dilute water solution, it has
a typical buttery odor and flavor.

(b) The ingredient meets the specifications of the Food Chemicals Codex, 3d
Ed. (1981), p. 368, which is incorporated by reference. Copies are available
from the National Academy Press, 2101 Constitution Ave. NW., Washington, DC
20418, or available for inspection at the National Archives and Records
Administration (NARA). For information on the availability of this material at
NARA, call 202-741-6030, or go to:
[http://www.archives.gov/federal_register/code_of_federal_reg...](http://www.archives.gov/federal_register/code_of_federal_regulations/ibr_locations.html).

(c) In accordance with §184.1(b)(1), the ingredient is used in food with no
limitation other than current good manufacturing practice. The affirmation of
this ingredient as generally recognized as safe (GRAS) as a direct human food
ingredient is based upon the following current good manufacturing practice
conditions of use:

(1) The ingredient is used as a flavoring agent and adjuvant as defined in
§170.3(o)(12) of this chapter.

(2) The ingredient is used in food at levels not to exceed current good
manufacturing practice.

(d) Prior sanctions for this ingredient different from the uses established in
this section do not exist or have been waived.

[48 FR 51907, Nov. 15, 1983]

[0] [http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-
idx?rgn=div5&node=21:3.0.1....](http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-
idx?rgn=div5&node=21:3.0.1.1.14#se21.3.184_11278)

~~~
notlisted
I'm not clear if you are being sarcastic, but note the GRAS (generally
recognized as safe), for _ingestion_ at least...

~~~
binarymax
I am not being sarcastic. That entry hasn't changed in the FR since 1983.
"Generally recognized as safe" is out of date and the chemical needs another
regulatory review and update.

~~~
daveguy
FR is a log of all regulations and you are referencing an old GRAS
notification. GRAS is valid and up to date _FOR INGESTION ONLY_. Here is the
most current information on GRAS _food additives_ (not pharma additives) from
the FDA:
[http://www.fda.gov/Food/IngredientsPackagingLabeling/GRAS/](http://www.fda.gov/Food/IngredientsPackagingLabeling/GRAS/)

Here is the inactive ingredients database for approved pharmaceutical
additives which depends on route of administration:
[http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cder/iig/index.Cfm](http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cder/iig/index.Cfm)

------
EliRivers
Life imitates art :)

[http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/health/put-cancer-in-e-
ci...](http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/health/put-cancer-in-e-cigarettes-
say-non-smokers-2014021983765)

------
sneak
It is important to note that the levels of these chemicals in the vapor from
vaporizers is 50-100x lower than found in traditional, "analog" cigarettes.

~~~
m_eiman
Why is that important? What might be important is whether the level of
chemicals is high enough to pose a risk, not if something else is worse.

~~~
frozenport
Not clear why you are being downvoted. Many people start smoking with e-cigs.
These are people who otherwise wouldn't smoke.

~~~
mistermann
> Many people start smoking with e-cigs

Are you saying: Nothing > ecigs > regular cigarettes?

If so, could you provide a citation for that claim?

~~~
e1ven
I don't smoke - I never have. I've personally considered taking up ecigs on
several occasions.

I haven't done so because the ingredients in the fluid flavorings are so oddly
unregulated - You end up with weird things which really aren't safe to be
heated and inhaled.

If I had confidence that there was sufficient oversight, such that they were
only moderately dangerous, not "close our eyes, and hope for the best", I'd
likely start using the devices.

~~~
frozenport
You do know that nicotine is addictive? Why would you take them up?

My roommate did it a few times now he gets sick if he doesn't vape. The thing
doesn't even vet you high! Its literally pure evil, there are much more
interesting substances to use.

~~~
p_eter_p
This reads like an 80's anti drug commercial.

------
noxToken
Quoting directly from Reddit [1]:

>Oh boy, time to crosspost for information's sake.

>Even diactyl containing e-juice still contains 100x less diacetyl than
traditional cigarettes. [Citation:
[http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/tox.20153/pdf](http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/tox.20153/pdf)
] And no smoker to date has ever gotten "Popcorn Lung" (Named because it
occurs years after dumping pure uncut diactyl into vats and bins when making
cheapo microwave popcorn in the factories.)

>And despite all that- It's still largely the other factors and chemicals and
tar and actual combustion that damages your lungs when smoking is involved.
Not diacetyl specifically.

>Even 100x the amount of diacetyl as e-juice is apparently not enough to cause
the "Popcorn Lung" issue related to the compound specifically. So why would
100x less than the amount that does not cause it suddenly start to cause it?
Not that it's 100 percent safe (As mentioned by a replier as well- So I have
appended my post some for accuracy and fairness.) Just that it's not the
immediate or unavoidable threat it's being presented as.

>And in the span of 7+ years even in the heaviest vape users no one has (yet,
mind. For the sake of fairness and caution.) reported any major health issues
tied to vaping or the compounds contained in e-juice. If the 75ml a day heavy
diactyl juice user doesn't get popcorn lung then I highly doubt popcorn lung
is a problem to watch for regarding it.

>Also there are many many e-juices available without diactyl. So even if it
was an issue you can actively avoid it. And most manufacturers have
discontinued it's use or clearely state if their juices are diacetyl free so
the risk factors that are purely tied to diacetyl are avoidable and
preventable.

>As far as being paranoid about what's put in it- This is purely my opinion
but, I think that is razorblades in your kid's halloween candy or "Shadey
people handing out drugs for free/Lacing your kid's flintstones vitamins with
PCP" levels of unfounded overconcern.

>Caution is important- But so is research and fact checking.

>Edit: To append this to- I am not defending the use or previous use of the
substance, merely dispelling the immediate "Popcorn Lung" panic around it. I
personally don't use e-juice containing it for the sake of risk reduction in
general as I like to limit as many potential factors as possible in general.
And there are hundreds- if not thousands of brands and types which do not
contain diacetyl to choose from which I would recommend.

>I am also not claiming vaping is 100 percent safe- Just that this instance is
an avoidable factor and has been for a while.

>Personal safety and active research should always be practiced in all facets
of life.

[1]
[https://np.reddit.com/r/science/comments/3vxbzo/chemical_fla...](https://np.reddit.com/r/science/comments/3vxbzo/chemical_flavorings_found_in_ecigarettes_linked/cxrq6ro)

Edit: For the record, that is not my Reddit post. I found it to be very
informative, so I thought I'd share it with the HN community. Please respect
Reddit's no brigading policy - for both upvoting and downvoting posts.

------
ssewell
For those are interested in a source of e-juice that doesn't contain Diacetyl
or 2,3-Pentanedione, Johnson Creek provides third-party lab test results for
many their products. For example:
[https://d1fardvzz27152.cloudfront.net/skin/frontend/jcosj/be...](https://d1fardvzz27152.cloudfront.net/skin/frontend/jcosj/beta2/pdfs/Baked%20Apples%20Cert.pdf)

------
jaunkst
I would never go back to smoking cigarettes. There is no comparison to e-cigs
and cigarettes, obviously this is backed by the tobacco industry and that is
the reason why its not a comparison of cigarettes and e-cigs; which is the
real story that wasn't written.

~~~
joslin01
Do you miss the subtler aspects of smoking cigarettes -- the smoke leaving the
cigarette, the real fire at the tip, etc?

~~~
noelsusman
I'm not the other guy, but the answer is yes, absolutely. E-cigarettes are not
a full replacement for cigarettes. Like you mentioned a lot of the subtler
aspects of cigarettes are completely missing from e-cigarettes.

It's a great way to stop smoking, but a lot of people act like you'll pick up
an e-cigarette and never think about cigarettes again, which is absolutely
untrue. It still takes a concerted effort to not fall off the wagon (I've
fallen off twice so far).

------
gabemart
Additional comments on post from 14 hours ago:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10700914](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10700914)

------
techload
I would appreciate if anyone could point me to some good links about e-cigs.
I'm interested in switching but know nothing about. Thanks.

~~~
andrewrice
There's a great subreddit that can point you in the right direction:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/electronic_cigarette/](https://www.reddit.com/r/electronic_cigarette/)

------
desireco42
This is a problem when you don't really solve your problem (smoking) but
trying to find ways around it. Same thing is happening with diet.

~~~
AlexandrB
That's assuming they think it's a problem. Just because you do doesn't make it
so (and I'm a non-smoker, for the record).

Edit: If e-cigarettes allow someone to get their nicotine fix without the
nasty health effects, all the more power to them.

