
Ask HN: Stuck with an unpronounceable product name - throwaway190620
Hi everyone,<p>Throwaway account. Been on HN since 2008, but first time asking anything.<p>Here&#x27;s the situation - we have a mature desktop product, IT-oriented, with a very good reputation and strong loyal following of people who know about it. Started as a side project, so didn&#x27;t spend much thought on naming it and just picked something. It finally grew to a point of being worthy of proper marketing and promotion and... that name choice is now a problem. It is hard to pronounce and it doesn&#x27;t sound nice if you manage to do that.<p>This complicates things when trying to sponsor video channels and podcasts for obvious reasons, but these are one of our best options for reaching people we are interested in.<p>Obviously, we can rename it, but this translates into a massive amount of work, in part because of several years worth of accumulated support&#x2F;kb&#x2F;forum material, all of which refers to the existing name.<p>Another option is to adopt the &quot;Called Hahaha, but written HxHxHx&quot; approach. This feels needlessly complicated if not forced.<p>Third option is to launch a clone of the product with a different name, use it for capturing the ad traffic and then direct it towards the original product. This seems workable, but also a bit too experimental for comfort.<p>---<p>Anyone&#x27;s been in a similar situation before?<p>Do you have any experience with renaming a _mature_ product?<p>Thanks!
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kowdermeister
Just do the rebranding, it's better to do it on the long run. Yes, it's a huge
amount of work, but it could be done in a finite amount of time. The two names
can co-exist, like

    
    
        New name (formerly HxHxHx)
    

Furthermore not all name updates are equally important, some can be done with
a DB find and replace some is shit manual work, but you can hire for this job
someone.

Read about stories how companies did this before. Currently I can think of one
case that's ongoing: Taxify -> Bolt. They still have the Taxify logo on their
cabs in Hungary but the app updated to Bolt (taxify).

~~~
pessimizer
> They still have the Taxify logo on their cabs in Hungary but the app updated
> to Bolt (taxify).

This might be a solution: wait for a fairly large UI overhaul or reskinning,
announce that reskinning with the name that you want the product to have, then
slap the new branding on the reskin while maintaining the company with the old
application name (this is assuming the the company is named after the
product.) That way, whether people use tho old name or the new name, they're
talking about the application or the company that has a single application.

You might even be able to gaslight many old customers into thinking that the
product never had a name change, and that the split always existed.

~~~
afarrell
> gaslight

How do you gaslight someone you have only passing contact with? Its certainly
possible to deceive them into believing a particular thing, but I think it
would be impossible to make them feel that they are losing touch with their
core ability to perceive reality unless they were already going through some
difficult mental health struggles.

------
legitster
Marketing wankateer here. This is a really great question even for
professionals.

It's super hard to make a judgement call without knowing the name - keep in
mind one of the options here is that you are overreacting. Changing a name can
be _really, really bad_ if you don't do it right. But here's a couple of
things you should do:

\- Approach this as a UX problem. Is the name negatively affecting people's
ability to approach or remember the brand? Do people actually need to know the
exact spelling of your company name in order to discover your product?

\- Check with existing customers to see how they pronounce the name. Or if
they have trouble with it. You may find customers already have their own fun
or cute ways to say it, and you can formalize these alternate pronunciations.
It can be a great nod to the community.

\- Can you simplify the name but keep most of it? Kind of like Dunking Donuts
going to DNKN.

\- Others have the excellent idea where you add to the name and slowly turn it
into an acronym. Very few people care that UTM actually stands for _Urchin_
Tracking Module. But it gave a nice shoulder period for forums and naming to
not be too confusing.

If you do go the route of a complete rename - yeah, it's better to rip off the
bandaid at once and be done with it. But you had better follow some best
practices:

\- Plan on a HUGE marketing spend afterwards to break in the new name.

\- Don't just pick something random and trendy out of the grabbag of available
domain names. "HxHxHx is now Grokly!"

\- Spend good money on an SEO expert so you don't royally screw up your web
presence.

~~~
mrpotato
> Approach this as a UX problem. Is the name negatively affecting people's
> ability to approach or remember the brand? Do people actually need to know
> the exact spelling of your company name in order to discover your product?

Reminds me of the STIHL commercial from a couple of years ago:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWSynIB68rE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWSynIB68rE)

tl;dw people are interviewed and each person says the company name
differently. The video starts the sales pitch with "No matter how you say
STIHL..."

~~~
dmitriid
Winning an award helps, too :)
[https://youtu.be/xKfU_5jgupo?t=14](https://youtu.be/xKfU_5jgupo?t=14)
(Hyundai)

------
crucialfelix
I pronounced a certain webserver "en-jinx" for years until I finally realized
it was "engine x". Which is a really daft name. Should be:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGQXRICAEAE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGQXRICAEAE)

The Beatles is also a really bad name for a band but they managed it.

~~~
throwaway190620
Beatles is a pun, it's good because of that.

~~~
skyyler
Much better than "The Quarrymen".

------
aasasd
> > _Other than the fact Linux has a cool name, could someone explain why I
> should use Linux over BSD?_

> _No. That 's it. The cool name, that is. We worked very hard on creating a
> name that would appeal to the majority of people, and it certainly paid off:
> thousands of people are using linux just to be able to say "OS/2? Hah. I've
> got Linux. What a cool name". 386BSD made the mistake of putting a lot of
> numbers and weird abbreviations into the name, and is scaring away a lot of
> people just because it sounds too technical._

— [https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.unix.pc-
clone.32b...](https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.unix.pc-
clone.32bit/_tl4WBguewE/x-00eYR0u4AJ)

~~~
yongjik
I'm pretty sure Linus was joking...

~~~
Aromasin
I'm also pretty sure he's right.

~~~
aasasd
On a related notion, I wonder how native English speakers were able to take
‘Windows’ seriously, back in the time when they didn't regularly encounter
hundreds of apps with whatever names are left available. In the native
language, the brain supposedly fires associations for you before you think
consciously about what you hear. Like, do you browse window installation
inventory in this program or what?

------
itcmcgrath
I've been around a company that was 180+ years old (so rebranding was non-
trivial ;)). They switched to an acronym based on the original name, so there
was was 1) a direct link between old and new, 2) old branded tgat was mussed
wasnt a big deal for bew customers, and 3) everyone called it by the acronym
going forward.

A similar approach might work for you and allow an incremential phase out of
the old brand over time. Instead of HxHxHx, it's now HITD (HxHxHx IT Desktop)

~~~
nullspace
> I've been around a company that was 180+ years old (so rebranding was non-
> trivial ;))

It's not fair to mention this and NOT tell which company and link to the story
about this! :)

~~~
DoreenMichele
There may not be a story to link to.

I once did a write up about Aflac's rebranding because I worked there for over
five years and couldn't find a write up of it anywhere. I think that blog is
no longer available to the public, so we may be back to "It doesn't exist
anywhere online that I can tell."

------
notacoward
I used to work for a company called Revivio. It was quite funny hearing
sales/marketing folks try to spell it out over the phone without sounding like
they were singing Old McDonald. Thanks, self-styled genius marketing VP!

~~~
SAI_Peregrinus
"Romeo Echo Victo India Victor India Oscar" (or similar) is probably the only
way to not sing that spelling.

------
endriju
'"Third option is to launch a clone of the product with a different name, use
it for capturing the ad traffic and then direct it towards the original
product. This seems workable, but also a bit too experimental for comfort."'

You might also have the option to twist the above - similar to what I did with
my product [http://exmerg.com](http://exmerg.com). I created a copy of it at
[http://gridoc.com](http://gridoc.com) and directed the traffic from the old
product to the new one. Users gradually started going directly to the new one
(gridoc) and the original web is now almost forgotten.

------
billwear
Years ago, HP had an incredibly powerful product (secure banking server, using
NSA's CMW code), placed in all 325 of the largest banks in the world (not
kidding) with a _very_ stupid name. I've forgotten it, but it was a humdinger-
darlin'-dumba$$ name that meant something sexually grotesque in Swedish or
something. I took over as the product manager in 2000, and immediately went
for the rebranding. Granted, HP was large, but the rebranding went absolutely
great. First, the customers were actually _happy_ to not have to refer to this
mature product by a stupid name, and second, the uptake increased almost
immediately to encompass about another 150 large banks, who said, "yeah, we
wanted the features, but we weren't going to tell our customers we were
protected with the "VirtualVulvaScraper" (or whatever the $#%^&&*@!! name
was). It only worked to our advantage to do this, and it paid off at every
stage. Never underestimate how relieved a customer will be to see a product
they like grow up and start using more elegant branding.

~~~
mosdl
Mongo is another example

------
maxxxxx
I am not a marketer but it seems to me that people are too concerned about
things like naming, icons and others. There are successful products with bad
names (it took years to find consensus on pronouncing “azure”). Craigslist is
successful without constant redesigns. At a minimum make only name change and
then keep it. I have seen products go through several changes and they pretty
much always were in decline and it seemed renaming or redesigning was the only
idea management had left.

In short I don’t think it’s that important.

~~~
cheschire
There are only two hard things in Computer Science: cache invalidation and
naming things. -Phil Karlton

~~~
Scarblac
There's really only one hard problem in computer science: people.

~~~
cheschire
Good ol' layer 8

------
SippinLean
I worked at Time Warner Cable when they got acquired by Charter, and rebranded
to their "Spectrum" cable product.

We got a customer email that went:

"Great, you went from being The Worst Company to Speculum, you're literally
f*cking us!"

Point is: rebranding is hard and expensive, but it will get more expensive the
longer you wait.

If you doubt it's possible for a _mature_ product, remember Kinko's?

~~~
nlawalker
_> If you doubt it's possible for a _mature_ product, remember Kinko's?_

Yes: it's now called "the copier place" \- still frequently shortened to
"Kinko's" \- because FedEx is where one goes to ship packages (or where one
avoids going when they want to ship packages, if they've had any experience
there).

------
perennate
If your concern over a rename is more about the work in updating material than
the potential loss in revenue due to confusion about the name, then I think
you should rename, since it'll be worth the effort in the long run.

------
dirktheman
Matomo handled this very well, they communicate 'Matomo formerly known as
Piwik'.

On a slightly related note: I uses to work for a travel company that merged
and got a new name that was horribly unpronounceable. Good luck answering the
telephone with 'TQ3 Travel Solutions' when English isn't your native tongue. I
have some choice words for whoever came up with that name...

------
Operyl
It's a hassle, but it's not impossible.

For example, Matomo (previously Piwik):
[https://www.google.com/search?q=piwik](https://www.google.com/search?q=piwik)

------
docker_up
Change the name. Any other solution is foolish and short-sighted.

A terrible name is something that is haunt you for the rest of your time at
the company. Just have the page links properly managed so that they mention
the new name and the old name. In 6 months, no one will care or remember the
old name.

Internally, you can refer to it as the old name, and you can keep the
filenames as is. It's a pain but that probably isn't worth the effort to
migrate.

------
pryelluw
Yes, I've done it before. It wasn't a software product, but it applies.

Had a client who had written a collection of really interesting books. They
sold well given that the client is a world renowned scientist.

The latest book sold well during her live presentations but poorly
online/offline.

The reason was that the name absolutely sucked. It was just awful.

The client wanted to rewrite the book and re-launch it with another awful
name. I just told them to rename it, change the cover image to something
related to the new name, get a new isbn, and ship it.

They worried about about people recognizing the product. And well, it really
wasnt a big deal. All materials were updated with the new name and a press
release was sent to sort of make it official.

No one cared. People loved the new name (I came up with it!). The book sold
really well.

I told them to use this as a funny anecdote when presenting the book. They did
and people loved the story.

So, go ahead and change the name, the branding in all related materials (you
can even lazy out and include a pop up that states the change and not update
anything else), and post a press release. Have everyone refer to it by the new
name and get on with sales.

If you have any _specific_ questions feel free to reply or email me.

------
indeed30
This instantly made me think of Qbserve.

~~~
throwaway190620
This is perfectly pronounceable though - Cue-Bee-Serve.

~~~
mishac
Hmmm, I instinctively pronounced as "Cube-zerve"

------
alanpage
Do the rebranding now, before you get so big that you have to spend HUGE sums
of money to get people to understand the pronunciation.

Don't be Rakuten, who spent millions on a Super Bowl commercial, and gave away
thousands in stacks of cash, to get people to understand it:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6sxz4vuxRg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6sxz4vuxRg)

~~~
iaabtpbtpnn
All that commercial did was let me know how important it is to them that I
pronounce their silly name the way they want. So I never will! It's raKOOten
and it'll be raKOOten forever. Every time I pass by 101 and 92, "oh look it's
the raKOOten building!"

------
kangnkodos
Can you add an additional name? HxHxHx - DesktopThing

Over time, you could transition to using the additional name more and more,
and finally, rename the product.

~~~
throwaway190620
Might've worked if the thing wasn't sitting on its own site.

~~~
notahacker
That transition can happen gradually too: NewAppName becomes the leadgen site
all the video ad watchers get sent to, then gradually support and FAQ and
company emails get migrated over to it, and the actual app url migrates later,
if at all.

------
Jugurtha
I like how the balena team executed with a name change and an open source
release.[0] They went over the reason of the name change (evolution of scope)
and clearly stated they wanted to introduce the new name with a splash:

> _We wanted to introduce the balena name to the world with a splash, and what
> better way to do that than releasing our open source server._

Also, the OpenERP --> Odoo change.[1]

[0]: [https://www.balena.io/blog/resin-io-changes-name-to-
balena-r...](https://www.balena.io/blog/resin-io-changes-name-to-balena-
releases-open-source-edition/)

[1]: [https://www.odoo.com/blog/odoo-news-5/post/the-odoo-
story-56](https://www.odoo.com/blog/odoo-news-5/post/the-odoo-story-56)

------
rmetzler
If your company and the product share a name, rename one for a year and then
transition fully to the new name.

You could also launch a second product with a different focus but
complimentary to you first one. If this gets traction, rebrand your original
product to a name based on your second product.

------
leot
"Spark" the IoT company renamed itself to "Particle" and it seems to have gone
ok.

------
uberdru
Rip the Band-Aid off! I was in this same situation. It was a product whose
name include "SQL". So when you called anyone, you had to say "sequel, by
which I mean, just the letters, S-Q-L. . .", which just killed the magic, if
there was any to begin with.

~~~
RmDen
Was that SQLSentry (SentryOne now)?

------
matchagaucho
Acronyms and abbreviations are an option. The name of my previous company was
a mouthful, so we simply rebranded using an acronym.

Consider companies like "International Business Machines" became IBM.

Instead of "HaHaHa", maybe "Ha3 by {CompanyName}"

~~~
jpttsn
FL Studio pka FruityLoops pulled this off

------
motohagiography
What you need is an umbrella concept for the product and its needs, named for
the new business and marketing view, for which the codebase is a realization
of it. Think of it as a set of new abstractions that wrap your product
functionality.

This is an unexpected application for an ontology like Webprotege.
([https://webprotege.stanford.edu/](https://webprotege.stanford.edu/))

Essentially, you build an ontology of needs and features and these become the
new abstractions, and then reference the code bases that realize them in its
nodes and attributes.

------
cddotdotslash
It might not be as bad as you think. First, you've gotten the following you
have based on reputation and your following so far. Second, most IT
applications are written about more than they are talked about. I think
consumer apps need a pronounceable name because people talking about them
provides marketing value. But the discovery of most IT apps comes from written
communication - blog posts, Google searches, etc.

Finally, if you're really concerned about it, maybe incorporate a
pronunciation guide (phonetic symbols) into your branding somehow.

~~~
throwaway190620
> _But the discovery of most IT apps comes from written communication - blog
> posts, Google searches, etc._

Well, yeah, precisely the original reasoning behind the name. The problem is
that we can't promote through any channels that require pronouncing the name
and there are quite a few really good ones.

~~~
jessaustin
So the name is vulgar when pronounced? That's awesome! You must work in a
really chill organization.

Also, you definitely want to change the name. Lots of organizations aren't
that chill, and you haven't sold anything to them yet.

------
tones411
RealTimeBoard recently did a name change to Miro. I did a search for "miro
realtimeboard" and saw an ad that said "Miro, formerly Realtimeboard...".
Also, check out their post about the name change:
[https://miro.com/blog/features/realtimeboard-is-now-
miro/](https://miro.com/blog/features/realtimeboard-is-now-miro/)

------
ergothus
I dont have a suggestion, but as a datapoints you could look at testacular =>
karma. It definitely took a while to complete, but was definitely done for
similar-sounding reasons. You can use searches to see how long it took, if
usage took a hit in the interim, even reach out to that team to see if they
have any experiences to share.

------
Starwatcher2001
If the spelling of the product name is uncommon, that might be a plus on
search engines.

------
relaunched
Re-branding is the best option, if you can afford the cost and work. If not,
try introducing a new logo, that might call out the name (or part of it) and
start branding that. Then, you can use that logo in sponsorships. Good luck!

------
blue_devil
Add something to the current name to make it sound "nicer"? A recent example I
came across for a mature product is "Goeuro" \--> "Omio". They use the
"formerly" approach.

------
whatshisface
Maybe you don't have to rename. It might be awkward to pronounce the current
name, but unless you have any data indicating that people's purchasing
decisions are being affected...

~~~
throwaway190620
We have no way to measure this, but common logic would suggest that there _is_
a negative effect there too. Imagine a junior sysadmin coming over the
manager's desk and suggesting to use a tool that sounds like someone profusely
swearing in Parseltongue.

But that's a secondary concern compared to not being promote product through
any channels with an audio track.

~~~
whatshisface
Would people be less likely to buy it if the podcaster had to spell out the
name? It depends on how rational the decision to purchase it is.

~~~
throwaway190620
I suspect that yes, they would be actually.

It's one thing to say "Sponsored by Apple" and another "Sponsored, erm, by
Q-Z-W-C-K-I, which is actually much better than what its name might imply".
The less friction there is, the better. Especially for placements that last
mere seconds.

~~~
legitster
Lots of companies spell out their names on podcasts. I think it's unfair to
compare your brand to the most recognized brand in the world. You should
really do some testing to see how random people perceive it.

------
tomahunt
"Hacker school" rebranded to "The Recurse Center"

www.recurse.com

------
the-dude
The Artist Formerly Known As Prince

------
DoreenMichele
TLDR of the Aflac story, FWIW:

They were founded in 1955 under the name _American Family Life Insurance
Company_ in Columbus, Georgia. At some point early on, some other insurance
company headquartered in some other state had the exact same name. Internal
stories at the company indicate the name dispute was settled with "a
gentleman's coin toss" and Aflac lost. So they changed the name to _American
Family Life Assurance Company._

So that's why it's _Aflac_ and not _Aflic_ , because American Family Life
Assurance Company is still their legal name. Aflac is just the acronym.

When they decided to do a rebranding, they contemplated the cost and hassle of
redoing the name legally in all fifty states (because insurance is highly
regulated) and weren't thrilled. They ultimately went with the acronym, which
avoided the need to do a legal name change.

Kind of like calling someone _Bill_ instead of _William_. Everyone knows their
legal name is actually William and no one really cares. There is no deception
going on.

Then they set a goal of getting better name recognition. They had really poor
numbers for an industry that isn't "sexy" to begin with.

They hired a marketing firm and tested two initial commercials. One had some
TV star and test figures suggested it would improve name recognition to 40
percent, which was in line with industry standards. The other was the famous
duck mocking the fact that no one knew who they were. It was a much riskier
approach, but offered the potential to get name recognition up to 90 percent.

That's what they went with and it became a household name. All because the
marketing people they hired went "It sounds like a duck quacking" and the new
CEO, son of one of the founders and a sales guy, was willing to take a risk.

------
orasis
Is it “zipper cooter”?

------
friedman23
if it's something like HxHxHx you could call it Hx3?

~~~
notahacker
Actually persuaded my dad to do more or less exactly that for his consulting
business by pointing out he'd be better off creating a brand based on the
number of Ts in our surname than have clients calling all the time to ask him
to spell it out so their emails stopped bouncing...

------
robodale
FogBugz

------
linuxasheviller
Say hi to the other folks on the Azure team from us.

~~~
hn_throwaway_99
I have literally never heard anyone mispronounce Azure.

~~~
varikin
Really? I never know if it's AZH-uhr or az-YOOR. I just googled it and
apparently it's the first for US pronunciation and the second for the UK.
[https://english.stackexchange.com/a/26645](https://english.stackexchange.com/a/26645)

~~~
quickthrower2
Clearly the latter gov’nr

------
nullwasamistake
Renaming is easy. The corporate types spend months on a new logo. All you need
to do is find replace the old name in the codebase, maybe a day of work max.
The marketing materials can be updated to reflect that over time

