
Tickling (2018) - luu
https://www.jefftk.com/p/tickling
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Evan_Hellmuth
This short post has caused a war in my own mind!

On the one hand, sometimes my girlfriend and I tickle each other and sometimes
she gets the better of me. She can be relentless. I'll plead for her to stop,
and I really truly want her to stop because I can barely breath, but she won't
because she's interpreting my laughter as a "keep going" signal. So I've had
to resort to ruthless counterattacks or ruins-the-fun physical defense (grab
her wrists and force her to stop), which makes me feel like a jerk. Thus I
fully support the "no means no" rule when it comes to tickling.

On the other hand, when your kid giggles and says "no..." but clearly wants to
be tickled, you should tickle them! Just keep a careful eye out for signals
that the fun is over. What kind of heartless monster trains kids to be as
literal as possible all the time? Why not strive to teach them about
appropriate context instead?

This post has made me realize that I hold these conflicting opinions
simultaneously.

~~~
randallsquared
> What kind of heartless monster trains kids to be as literal as possible all
> the time? Why not strive to teach them about appropriate context instead?

A heartless monster who understands that "appropriate context" is a rapidly
moving target in the modern world, and who wants to ensure that their kids
grow up safe from either side of both misunderstandings and
"misunderstandings", insofar as that is possible.

~~~
misnome
Honestly interested, do you have kids that you make this statement?

I don't, but _appreciate_ that as an adult, "appropriate context" is a rapidly
moving target, and it seems that being trained to be and assume all-literal,
all the time would have left me deeply unprepared for interacting with other
human beings in the real world.

~~~
lupire
Yes, I have kids. It's especially important for kids to learn how to express
consent/non-consent clearly, because they can be easily manipulated, confused,
and lied to.

I don't want a molester or bully to teach my child that molestation was my
child's fault because "'no' means 'yes'".

"literal all the time" is absurd hyperbole. Literal about personal bodily
safety is good sense. And frankly, sarcasm is a "low" way of speaking, and
we'd all do better to have less of is, particularly because people tend to
forget that sarcasm is communicated through tone, so they keep trying and
failing to use sarcasm effectively in text communication.

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deogeo
I think, in many ways, not respecting personal boundaries is how people show
closeness, and how they get close. Asking a prying question, telling a hard
truth unprompted, or giving a hug out of nowhere. Asking for permission before
every little thing feels like it makes people more distant, and reading that
story just made me sad.

It's how we treat strangers, not friends and family.

~~~
alexpetralia
I think you should always respect personal boundaries, but it's precisely with
those whom you are closest that you feel comfortable tinkering with those
boundaries. If you never pushed the boundaries, you wouldn't have gotten so
close to begin with. But once you find them, you never intentionally cross
them too much - that would be a breach of trust.

[Edit] I write a little about the topic of play here:
[https://goo.gl/jHuUQn](https://goo.gl/jHuUQn)

~~~
jmts
Exactly. The boundaries aren't disrespected - they change as relationships
change. Disrespect for boundaries is a disrespect of the person whose boundary
you are crossing. If you do it out of ignorance then it can often be forgiven
and trust can be rebuilt if you show you can be trusted, but if it is
repeated, knowing, or as a display of power, the relationships get worse - not
better.

You are okay with a close friend touching you on the shoulder or asking
personal questions because your relationship has evolved to a point where your
boundaries permit it. It is not okay for a person you dislike to do those
things because your relationship is such that your boundaries forbid it.

------
charismaman2007
This reminds me of an interesting and related story (that I'll post from a
throwaway).

I'm an American who moved to Japan many years ago. When I was dating here, a
girl made her intentions extremely obvious so I took her back to my place
after a night out. Soon after we starting having sex, she said, "No no!" so I
stopped an apologized. Then she initiated again, but before long, "No no!" So
I stopped and apologized again, very confused.

After two or three times, I realized what was happening. If you've ever
watched Japanese porn, you're probably familiar with it, and that's likely
where she learned it too. Or maybe she got the habit from guys that were into
the rape myth.

After I realized what she was doing I told her clearly, "Look, I'm not into
that at all and it's actually a complete turn off. If you don't like this, we
can stop and I'm totally fine with you staying the night and I'll sleep over
here. But if you do want to do this, don't say no again." She understood and
we continued a good relationship after that without anymore "play no"s.

~~~
lupire
Perhaps Japanese porn got it from Japanese sex culture?

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umvi
On the one hand, I guess this is good training for the modern "explicit verbal
consent" world we live in.

On the other... IMO takes a lot of the playfulness out of it. I do this with
my son, and part of the "game" is that he is saying no and running away
screaming (with a huge grin), and I am chasing him. If he simply says "yes"
and waits for me to tackle him without a chase, what fun is that? Obviously
requires being able to read beyond verbal cues.

~~~
jefftk
Several people have suggested using a safeword for this. Something like: "I'm
going to tickle you, even if you say 'no stop', but if you say 'potato' I'll
stop right away". I think this is something my kids would have done well with,
though now they're just used to my taking their explicit "no"s literally.

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rosser
This is so incredibly important a thing to teach children. Between this, and
not forcing them to hug or kiss people they don't want to, they learn that
their body belongs to _them_. I can't think of much that matters more for
people to know at an embodied, felt level.

~~~
Pfhreak
Thank you! We've taught our daughter to emphatically say "No thank you", and
told her she doesn't need to hug or kiss anyone if she doesn't want to, and
I've gotten some real angry responses from adults. I've had to intervene when
an adult insisted on coming in and hugging after a totally unambiguous no
thank you.

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sxates
This reminds me of a time back in college when I was getting to know my future
ex-wife - I was teasing her about something, and made some kind of tickle
attempt and her response was to immediately punch me in the stomach. Her
father had never respected the 'too much tickle' line, and her tolerance for
it as a result was zero. She was in fact terrified by the threat of it. So
yeah, have to make sure you're not crossing those limits...

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1e-9
I ascribe to the theory that tickling is a mechanism children instinctively
use to learn important survival skills. The seemingly contradictory behavior
of wanting something while also not wanting it makes perfect sense in this
light. Appearing to want tickling encourages others to "attack," while truly
not wanting it motivates a child to vigorously defend. Relatedly, children
seem to universally enjoy games of hide-and-seek and chase. Even more fun, are
combinations of these such as an adult acting as though they are a horrible
monster while chasing children who hide and do their best to avoid a tickle
mauling. Similar behavior appears in a variety of juvenile animals who
actively encourage being chased and play-attacked. A child who learns to
perform well in these play scenarios can apply such skills to the real world
when they truly need to evade, hide, or defend themselves while still small
and weak. I think that trying to impose adult consent behaviors upon young
children in these areas is unnatural and counter productive.

------
ars
It's easy enough to tell if a child actually wants to be tickled: Stop
tickling and then wait and watch if they move further away from you or closer
to you. (If necessary move slightly away from them first.)

Based on which direction they're moving you can tell what they really want.

Another way to tell is to do a pretend tickle motion and then backup. Do they
follow you? Or do they just stay where they are?

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bargl
This is fantastic advice.

I have the same issue with my 5 year old. Sometimes no means no and sometimes
it means, no but I actually want you to tickle me.

This is a good policy and I'll be using it going forward. It teaches clear
communication and I really like that.

~~~
lygaret
My 4yo and I have been using "stop" to mean "use your judgment" and "stop for
real" to mean exactly what it sounds like. It's been fascinating to watch her
internalize that, start leading with the correct one, or sometimes have a late
lazy "for real" as she susses out what she's up for.

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cgsmith
I don't think that it is surprising that children do the "no-with-giggles"
right away. It is a learned behavior. As far as teaching them to say yes to
tickles or not... I don't think it will have any bearing on language
development. Some may benefit from knowing that some people will not adhere to
your "no" command.

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coldtea
> _This was very surprising to me: I wouldn 't have expected the mixed signals
> response to come so naturally, and need explicit practice to learn to
> suppress._

It's called being playful. Of course it comes naturally.

We're not Hilbertian axiomatic language machines.

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dusted
I remember this as a kid.. Tickling is interesting in that the initial
reaction signals pleasure (laughing) while the experience could be rather
unpleasant. I recall multiple times as a kid that an adult would say "I'm
gonna tickle you!" and I could feel my mouth widen in a smile but I sincerely
didn't want to be tickled and would say no, I'd try to frown, but they'd
interpret it as me being playful and go ahead, at which point I'd laugh until
I started crying and they'd get the point.

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m463
I have a solution to this dilemma.

I have found with kids that virtual tickling works just as well as actual
ticking. Who can resist laughing when a parent with a goofy look tickles you
without actually touching you?

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patsplat
It's never to early to teach consent

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Waterluvian
I wonder if tickling them when they giggle-no might eventually teach them to
give clear signals too.

I'd try with mine but he loooves tickling.

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bitforger
My father used to tickle me to tears. I think OP has the right idea here.

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enriquto
This text reads as obvious sarcasm to me. The saying "no means no" refers to
rape. To apply it to playful tickling in family is so ridiculous that it is
even offensive. Of course, kids say NO when you tickle them, and they love it!

