
Call for retraction of 400 papers amid fears organs came from Chinese prisoners - howard941
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/feb/06/call-for-retraction-of-400-scientific-papers-amid-fears-organs-came-from-chinese-prisoners
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gotocake
Horrific, not surprising, but horrific. It’s a little slice of Niven-esque
sci-fi hell, here and now. Still, while a crackdown on the groups that based
their research on these organs is a must, I’m not sure that retracting the
research is the way to do it. Suspend their licenses to practice, cut their
funding and subject them to scrutiny, but if the research is good it should be
agnostic as to the source.

It should be possible both to set an example which discourages this practice
in the future, without the loss of the research itself.

~~~
krastanov
I understand your suggestion about not retracting the research and I am
certain reasonable people would fall on both sides of this question. But it is
not unreasonable to destroy something useful that appeared thanks to something
horrible, in a show of moral leadership and an absolutist refutation of the
horrible practice.

For a much lower stakes example: The bounty confiscated from poachers (ivory
for instance) is destroyed instead of being legally sold to fund the anti-
poaching efforts.

~~~
gotocake
Of course destruction of ivory makes the remaining ivory more rare, more
valuable, and desireable. The issue with ivory poaching isn’t going to be
solved by Drug War tactics, and just like burning a pile of cocaine it does
nothing to solve the problem, it just makes people feel better.

~~~
krastanov
Experts tend to find the question much more complicated than your armchair
economics would suggest. The real world rarely follows what you learn in the
first week of Econ 101.

[https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/08/wildlife-
watch-i...](https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/08/wildlife-watch-ivory-
crush-elephant-poaching/)

Mind you, I am not saying that your thesis has no value, rather that you have
way more confidence in it than it deserves.

~~~
gotocake
Did you even read the opinion presented in the article you posted? I don’t
think it’s quite the comeback the tone of your post would suggest. The two
camps seem to break down in terms of “signaling” or “sending a message”, and
the argument I represented which is grounded in the evidence. For spice we
have the person pointing out that in fact these burns/crushes present a ripe
opportunity to steal the ivory.

 _In some corrupt countries, ivory burns and crushes can act as a way to steal
ivory because it is not all carefully recorded in its destruction. Although
initially these acts made a statement as a cry for help, such as with the
first Kenya burn in 1989 that helped put ivory out of fashion in the U.S. and
Europe, many in Asia find destruction to be against their culture and think
the ivory could be used for making an artistic monument as a long-term
statement instead. It is the Asians, especially the Chinese, whose viewpoints
on this issue count the most, as they are the main consumers of ivory. Ivory
crushes can detract from what is really needed to save elephants: much greater
efforts on law enforcement and improving ways to protect elephants in their
natural habitat._

Experts clearly disagree, but I find arguments about sending messages or
deterrence unconvincing, as they tend to come from the gut rather than the
evidence. It’s just that kind of sloppy thinking that death penalty advocates
often use when confronted with evidence as well.

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lbj
Destroying the knowledge now is counter productive and if anything it makes
all lives lost in vain

~~~
anigbrowl
The corollary of this argument is that the deaths contribute to some noble
purpose and and are thus justified to some degree. That instinct to engage in
retroactive bargaining is understandable but dangerous. What is the point of
having ethical standards if there isn't a high cost for breaking them?

~~~
maccio92
The cost should be paid by those who allowed the organs to be provided in this
way, not by destroying the learnings that came from the science.

~~~
asib
Er, the people conducting the research who took the organs were at the very
least not following ethical guidelines. This is sufficient grounds for
punishment in my eyes.

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toss1
>>While the government says 10,000 transplants occur each year, hospital data
shows between 60,000 to 100,000 organs are transplanted each year. The report
provides evidence that this gap is being made up by executed prisoners of
conscience.

This indicates between 50,000 and 90,000 'prisoners of conscience' EVERY YEAR
are executed and have their organs harvested. That is 1,000 to 2,000 people
_per week_ executed essentially for opposing the govt.

Yet we continue to do business with this government and allow them into world
trade and govt organizations as if they were somehow ethical or legitimate.

This needs to be re-thought.

~~~
p1esk
Do you use products made in China? If so, you indirectly (or in some cases,
directly) support Chinese government.

Are you going to stop, now that you think they are unethical?

~~~
bdamm
That's ridiculous, it's the same fallacy as believing that a single person's
choice to drive less somehow helps reduce global warming. The massive systemic
abuses completely overshadow the noise of individual selection. It's not even
clear to me that a social-media storm resulting in a global boycott of "Made
in China" goods within developed nations would have much of a long-term dent
in the Chinese economy or domestic policy.

~~~
p1esk
Can you propose something more effective, that you personally can do?

Or are you suggesting we ignore (alleged) dozen of people executed every hour
for organ harvesting?

~~~
bdamm
Discussing the issue with your representatives would be a good start.

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99_00
Horrifyingly, Ground Baby Pills Are a Real Thing

In news that will make you want to shut the blinds, go back to bed until next
week ... there's disturbing news out of South Korea that since August,
officials have found over 17,000 pills filled with human flesh, in particular
the placentas and ground up bodies of dead Chinese babies.

[https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/05/ho...](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/05/horrifyingly-
ground-baby-pills-are-real-thing/328490/)

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tombert
Maybe I'm missing something; it mentioned it was using organs from _executed_
prisoners. Is that a bad thing?

Again, I feel like I missed a part of this article, so I'm genuinely confused.

EDIT: I was under the (erroneous) impression that these people were being
executed for other crimes, like murder or rape or something. I didn't realize
people were being executed on demand. That's terrifying.

~~~
xiii1408
Yes, that's a bad thing. The Chinese state has a documented history of
executing people on demand in order to harvest their organs:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Gong_practitioners_in_China).

Even if you were going to be executed anyway, you obviously have a right to
determine what happens to your organs, particularly in cultures like China's,
where it's seen as very important that the body remain whole.

~~~
tombert
Ah, I wasn't aware that they were being executed for that reason. Then I
definitely agree it's horrifying.

~~~
debt
Regardless, that's a really fucked up incentive structure if ya think about
it.

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downrightmike
This is disgusting. What is the point of sacrificing so much? A few more
years?

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crb002
Retraction is a coverup. They should publish how they did it.

