
Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote - artur_makly
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/07/06/politics/international-college-students-ice-online-learning/index.html
======
dang
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23751931](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23751931)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23755301](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23755301)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23753413](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23753413)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23753182](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23753182)

~~~
jb775
@dang - Flagging as [dupe] shouldn't remove an article from the HN front page,
especially when none of the other articles are actively on the front page.

Also, all [dupe] article comments should be merged and visible under each
separate [dupe] article, so organic user dialogue isn't split up and
minimized.

~~~
dang
Front page space is the scarcest resource on HN [1]. If we didn't remove
dupes, the site would be Dupes R Us. Also, since the idea of HN is to avoid
repetition [2], there wouldn't be anyone left here because readers would
mutiny.

We commonly merge duplicate threads, but we don't catch them all. In the case
of a sensational story like this one, where there's an endless supply of
comments and the threads are more or less interchangeable, it's perhaps less
important.

[1]
[https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...](https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20scarce&sort=byDate&type=comment)

[2]
[https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...](https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20curiosity%20repetition&sort=byDate&type=comment)

~~~
kerneltime
Wow! no sign of this or any other thread from the front page..

------
curiousllama
This is just another step in a broad-based program to make sure as few highly
qualified people as possible can come to learn and work in the US.

(1) F1 visas have been effectively banned in much of the world since COVID
started - the required interviews could only be done in now-closed centers.
(2) H1B, L1, H4, and J1 visas have been suspended until the end of the year,
leaving OPT transfers, H1B lottery winners (already a 1 in 3 shot), H1B
transfers, and others in the lurch. (3) RFEs (a first step to visa denials)
have been on a steep rise.

As a result, not only are we kicking people out, but international
applications to US schools have absolutely collapsed; fewer people are even
trying. The US is actively abandoning its goal of being the land of
opportunity, and it makes me sad.

~~~
twsttest
The US allows over 1 million immigrants per year. Maybe less the past year,
but still extremely high on an immigrant per capita basis.

H1B was being abused and needed to be reigned in.

There are still plenty of people coming into the country through various
means, the US is still extremely generous with immigration.

There are plenty of qualified citizens here and in the zero sum game that is
hiring national immigration policy should put their needs first before anyone
else's.

~~~
cr1895
>the US is still extremely generous with immigration.

Everything I read about it convinces me it's a byzantine and capricious
process, and largely down to chance.

My process of gaining permanent residence in the Netherlands is a cakewalk by
comparison. University MSc, then free access to the job market for a year,
then after some years of employment and passing a relatively simple
integration exam, I have long-term European residence. At no point was this up
to the arbitrary whims of some immigration officer or a far-fetched lottery
chance.

To me the idea that immigration is zero sum is repugnant and wrong.

~~~
twsttest
There are hundreds of millions of people who want to come into the US each
year. It's inevitably going to be a difficult process.

------
the_svd_doctor
Original press release is [https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/sevp-modifies-
temporary-ex...](https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/sevp-modifies-temporary-
exemptions-nonimmigrant-students-taking-online-courses-
during?fbclid=IwAR1q6W8g6uikfadS8eZDZI8ocer-Pv-mxEg5RWGZIwmb6lCu58KRklAgoL8)

Key fact:

\- International student cannot legally attend a 100% online school from the
US (with an F or M status).

\- International student in school with "Hybrid" models (some in person, some
online) cannot have a 100% "online semester". The school will need to certify
that the student is not taking 100% online classes.

\- If a Hybrid school moves to a fully online halfway through, the student
needs to depart the US (or transfer to another school)

This only applies for the student to be legally _within_ the US of course.

EDIT: The law already prevented this, basically. Spring and Summer had special
exemptions granted by DHS. So this is just a reversal to the "usual policy",
which it seems many school expected would not happen (at least not that
quickly). My university is scrambling to understand the exact consequences.

------
mc32
Key quote:

>” Visa requirements for students have always been strict and coming to the US
to take online-only courses has been prohibited.”

So it’s a reinforcement of policy rather than change although some
institutions would like to see accommodation for this kind of circumstance
—which is understandable if students came here with the intent to attend in
person, but it’s worth noting the the visa requirements have not changed

~~~
roywiggins
That requirement was waived this spring. They're unwaiving it.[0]

Rigid enforcement of rules designed for a world that doesn't exist anymore,
and won't for a while, is a deliberate choice and not one that we have to
make.

The pandemic is an ongoing rolling emergency. Making life worse for people for
no good reason may be the default, but that doesn't mean that the people who
can waive the rule shouldn't be held responsible when they decide not to.
Inaction and action are nearly indistinguishable from the side of the people
being affected.

[0] See this guidance from March: "Given the extraordinary nature of the
COVID-19 emergency, SEVP will allow F-1 and/or M-1 students to temporarily
count online classes towards a full course of study in excess of the limits...
This temporary provision is only in effect for the duration of the emergency"
Absolutely nothing substantive has changed since then, but ICE has apparently
changed its mind and- implausibly- decided the emergency is over. It's absurd.

[https://www.ice.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Document/2...](https://www.ice.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Document/2020/Coronavirus%20Guidance_3.13.20.pdf)

~~~
gcbw3
The university i'm associated with, because of the pandemic, not only all the
international students are having online classes, but the international grad
students teaching the classes are giving them online too.

And all those grad students on a teaching scholarship were told to remain in
the US because their scholarship is tied to being residents of the State for
some tax reason or another for the institution.

fun times.

~~~
compscistd
Couldn't they offer a required in-class portion of their degree (INT 5001:
"Let's Talk about COVID and being international students for 20 minutes") for
all international students where completion is required for their degree but
attendance is optional? Effectively, no one physically goes to the class, but
it's enough to keep students in the US because it's not an online-only class.

~~~
roywiggins
The regulations are written so as to exclude the possibility[0]. I wouldn't
play chicken with ICE. Get this wrong, and you can be held in immigration
detention until ICE can convince your home country to let them deport you
back[1], which may be a while considering countries have been travel-banning
the US on public health grounds.

[0] "For F-1 students enrolled in classes for credit or classroom hours, no
more than the equivalent of one class or three credits per session, term,
semester, trimester, or quarter may be counted toward the full course of study
requirement if the class is taken on-line or through distance education and
does not require the student's physical attendance for classes, examination or
other purposes integral to completion of the class."
[https://www.nafsa.org/_/file/_/amresource/8cfr2142f.htm](https://www.nafsa.org/_/file/_/amresource/8cfr2142f.htm)

[1] [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/ice-
fake-u...](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/ice-fake-
university-scame-detroit-immigrants-students-india-a9220861.html)

~~~
diebeforei485
The regulations will be updated (new regs will be in the Federal Register as a
Temporary Final Rule) and the limit of one class / three credits will be
lifted for students attending universities following a hybrid model.

[https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/sevp-modifies-temporary-
ex...](https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/sevp-modifies-temporary-exemptions-
nonimmigrant-students-taking-online-courses-during)

------
jb775
International students should be allowed to stay as long as they're full-time,
and are accepted into an accredited university with the intention of attending
in person.

I guess the gray area here is that colleges, many of them being for-profit
entities, are facing big drops in enrollment and can essentially sell US
citizenship in exchange for tuition payments. Once an online course system is
set up, the only cost is generating new user credentials.

~~~
gnulinux
Going from a student with F visa to Green Card is a >10 year adventure with
all sorts of problems and complex legal framework. Not to mention, it's
practically impossible for some majors, in particular if your major does not
apply to OPT STEM extension, it's very hard to get H1B as you have 1 chance to
be picked in lottery.

This "universities sell US citizenship" thing is plain misinformation.

~~~
sg47
If you are from India, it's a 150-year adventure.

------
thefrozenone
To add a bit of color:

* One of my friends went to live with her parents after her OPT expired. She was supposed to enroll in an M.S. in August, but due to COVID, the embassies in her country were shut down. While her university is hybrid, she chose to stay in her home country to take the online-only courses, which are (fortunately) discounted.

* My sister, who is trying to renew her F-1 and has no other status options, is hoping that her school doesn't go online.

* My mom, an immunocompromised professor, is asking the university for an exemption to their in-person requirement. The university said no. The word around is that a financial analyst explained to administration that if people don't have the "campus experience" and therefore stop paying for housing/dining halls, the university would face insolvency within 2 semesters.

All in all, it seems like a way to pressure universities to open. They cannot
reasonably close and lose like 5-10% _more_ of their revenue by losing all
international students, especially if they haven't figured out online course
delivery to recoup some fees from F-1s.

~~~
krnsll
The point about your mom (and more broadly older faculty) is important. I hope
it works out for her.

Vulnerable faculty will likely be forced to hold "in-person" lectures (ergo
worsening their risk profiles) for the universities to create quasi-in-person
courses: in that, videos will still be recorded and students probably won't
show up but, on paper, it wouldn't be classified as an online course. This
would likely be coupled with batch-scheduled exams being the only occasion the
students need to show up in person for (or perhaps, those too are obviated via
take-home exams?). This is essentially identical to some large enrollment,
advanced CS theory courses I've taken.

------
arrayjumper
As someone who studied in the US on an F1 visa, I can tell you that this rule
has always been in place. The F1 visa was always extremely restrictive whether
it was regarding minimum number of in person credits or regarding allowing
students to work part time.

It seems especially cruel that they'd choose to enforce the rule at a time
like this.

~~~
the_svd_doctor
Exactly. F-1 is already very very restrictive. Enforcing this rule is bad and
doesn't take any account any sort of local differences.

What if the state close all college campuses ? Sorry, bye bye, go home.

------
hpoe
I know this will be very unpleasant and will entail a lot of hardship for a
lot of people but I can't help but wonder if in the long term this will help
to start reversing the "brain drain" problem that many developing nations are
struggling with. They'll still have access to their classes and be able to
acquire the requisite skills, but now they'll be building something in their
home country not stuck in a middle tier position within the US.

Of course not saying that means the policies made are good or bad, I am just
curious to the second order effect this will have.

~~~
Afton
I know several developers from developing nations that have strong ties to
their countries of origin, and engage heavily in various "good works" there.
They have massively more resources to do so due to their salaries in the US
than they would if they were stuck in their countries of origin.

~~~
bdcravens
Is the value of their charity greater than the cost of the country losing
their talent? The "teach a man to fish" proverb comes to mind.

~~~
kyawzazaw
It is. Infrastructure, strong simple institutions simply do not exist.

And these people brain drained for a while and coming back later is better for
those countries.

~~~
ninjinxo
Do you have any actual examples or research? Remittance and charity didn't
exactly help East Germany prosper after the mass exodus of its young,
professionals, and farmers...

~~~
kyawzazaw
Oh I am not talking about remittance.

I am talking about emigrants that come to more developed countries and then
going back afterwards.

------
siraben
As an international student myself, it has been a very confusing last few
months, and now this. I am fortunate enough to be back in my home country but
I know of many others who are stuck in the US due to travel restrictions or
financial reasons. Forcing them to leave for a situation they cannot control
during a pandemic is cruel.

I urge everyone to sign this petition[0] to help international students who
are here to pursue higher education in the US, by asking ICE to rescind their
decision.

[0] [https://www.change.org/p/ice-let-international-students-
stay](https://www.change.org/p/ice-let-international-students-stay)

------
humanistbot
All of those students who came to the US to try to get an education will
remember this for the rest of their lives. When all of those future
scientists, business leaders, journalists, politicians, artists, and so on
think about the US, they will think back to how the US treated them at a time
of global crisis.

------
eloisius
I really hope universities can find a loophole around this. Three days of in-
class lecture per semester, but allow for three unexcused absences for any
reason.

~~~
dx87
The college I go to uses a loophole to allow military veterans to get the full
monetary benefits of attending an in person class, while doing everything
online. They don't have attendance requirements, all the material taught in
class has to be available online, and no exercises or in class assignments
count towards your final grade. That way the school can say you enrolled in an
in-person class, and the student gets to decide whether or not they want to
show up. Admittedly, the in class instruction normally isn't very good, and
maybe 5-10 people still come in after the first few weeks.

------
sm0ss117
Just another step on the way to the US becoming a pariah state. I'm really not
looking forward to the next few years here. While electing a Democratic
government might be able to reverse some of the policies, check out what the
senate is doing to the judicial branch to see why that might not be enough, it
won't return the trust or reputation of the US.

The nativist, anti-intellectual, and outright fascist elements of the US have
gone from a vocal minority to a genuine force in American politics thanks to
the Senate. While they still are a minority of the population, probably 20% if
you cast the absolute widest net possible, due to gerrymandering, 2 Senators
per state, lifetime judicial appointments, the electoral college, and extreme
voter suppression they are in charge of huge swaths of the government. It's
gonna be a wild ride.

------
dangoor
In an ideal world, this is where the legislature steps in and passes a law
that allows these students to stay for the 2020-21 school year, rather than
assuming the executive branch just selectively continues non-enforcement of
this requirement.

If you're a US citizen, you can contact your representative/senators offices
and ask them to deal with this.

------
ISL
I'm expecting universities to begin to encourage international students to
sign up for in-person lab classes to bypass this rule.

Are any HN'ers aware of policies emerging to this effect? I expect there to be
some back-and-forth between educational institutions and the government on
this one.

~~~
RHSeeger
I had a similar first thought. A 0 credit, single class (1 hour per semester),
in-person lab classes would reduce the 100% online to ... not. I wonder if
there's rules in place to prevent this.

------
blue11
The whole thing is optimized for maximum cruelty, but the suggestion that
students should transfer to another school that has in-person classes is just
mockery.

In normal times transferring to another college is a process that takes 9-10
months. The admission rate for transfer applications is really low. And that's
just for domestic transfer students. It is not even theoretically possible to
transfer to another school in a couple of months. Not to mention that the F-1
student visa and the I-20 form needed to obtain such a visa are for a specific
school only, so international students would also have to go back to their
home countries and obtain new visas.

------
paganel
On the plus side, maybe this will help with the talent brain affecting the
countries from where those students come. If it matters I live in a country
heavily affected by emigration.

------
yizhang7210
I'm genuine curious what economic benefits this brings. With the very limited
economics I've learned, most students are net spenders in the country, them
being here will only pour more money in. Economically, how does stopping them
coming in help anyone?

~~~
maxchisto
Driving down aggregate demand for higher education can help bring down the
cost (how effectively would depend on the elasticity of supply, which I'm not
sure about). Fresh grads coming out of college with less debt should lead to
higher aggregate spending in other sectors.

~~~
yizhang7210
This is interesting. But this sounds like a long term effect right? Presumably
universities aren't lowering tuitions just because of this semester?

~~~
maxchisto
Yeah, long term. Also, idk if that was the intention or if it will work. I
just tried to think of any theoretical benefits.

Not shure what universities are doing. There are a lot of them. So far I've
heard that Harvard will continue charging the same while pushing big chunk of
students online.

You're right about benefits of foriegn capital flowing into US through
international students. Net result can very well be negative.

------
notacoward
My academic friends are going absolutely _bananas_ over this. Particularly at
the graduate level, and particularly in technical fields, this will leave some
departments unable to function. Even domestic students will suffer. And that's
all aside from the long term effect on national competitiveness. I've seen
some mention mercantilism, but this isn't even effective as that. True
mercantilism would mean doing even more to keep other countries from
benefiting from those students' knowledge and labor. This is not mercantilism;
it's a very different and almost suicidal kind of nativism.

------
xixixao
What this policy completely misses is that some courses are real-time online,
not recorded, and that people live in different timezones across the globe.

This is extremely personally harmful to people affected.

~~~
Panini_Jones
Moreover, some classes use online services like GDocs. GDocs aren't accessible
from certain countries.

------
ralmidani
Instructors want to reduce their risk of exposure, which is understandable.
But serving that interest also means a lot of international students will lose
their visas. Would limiting seats in class to just international students be a
good way to reconcile both parties' interests?

Edit: this would raise issues of fairness and equal treatment (a lot of
students, especially those not accustomed to remote learning, would feel
cheated). There probably is no perfect solution.

~~~
st1ck
With in-person classes, instructors (and students, and everyone) will get
infected because of how the virus works, and there is not that much one can do
about it until vaccine or herd immunity is developed.

Students will lose their visas because of bureaucratic BS which can be changed
anytime, but probably won't be because of the current political climate.

So, one concern is grounded in nature, another in bureaucracy, I don't think
there is much of reconciliation. Although I agree completely that students are
not getting what they paid for (if they paid for in-person classes).

------
dopamean
Seems like bs to me. If you're on the other side of the planet you're expected
to be online at 3am for lectures and exams? Ridiculous.

~~~
thehappypm
You’ve clearly never taken an online class.

Lectures are recorded, exams are usually flexible open windows

~~~
JoeAltmaier
My wife's online classes are real-time. She logs in at lecture time, asks
questions with the other students. Same with section.

We're talking University experience here, which is all about engagement.

------
atoav
The most impotant part of studying is often the interaction with peers (IMO).
This is very hard to replicate digitally.

------
artur_makly
Harvard and MIT are suing.
[https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2020/7/8/harvard-mit-
sue-...](https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2020/7/8/harvard-mit-sue-
immigration-authorities/)

------
nickdothutton
Some of you may find this quite interesting.
[https://www.ineteconomics.org/uploads/papers/Weinstein-
GUI_N...](https://www.ineteconomics.org/uploads/papers/Weinstein-
GUI_NSF_SG_Complete_INET.pdf)

------
simonkafan
It's truly remarkable how ignorant the US now acts towards foreign students
and talents given that a lot of world class scientists, artists and innovators
are 1st or 2nd generation immigrants.

I hope this will give Europa and Asia the chance to get some of their
emigrated talents back.

------
hristov
The last thing we need right now is to force a bunch people into international
air travel. They should not enforce the policy for classes that have been
temporarily moved online due to covid.

------
nine_zeros
International folks need to realize that life is too precious. You don't want
to spend time with bureaucracy and threat of deportation while getting
education and pursuing productive careers.

America of the past is gone. It's rapidly deteriorating. Save your lives and
don't enter into any educational or business arrangement with America.

------
elchin
This is extra horrible for European, Asian and African students, due to
timezones.

------
akerro
and they will have to pay full price tuition, what a deal!

------
cpufry
vote plz tnx

------
snackematician
This is yet another attack against immigrant students as noted in sibling
comments.

But it is also an attempt to force universities to open in the Fall despite
the dangers of doing so. Many universities depend on the tuition from foreign
students. The timing shows this (right after Harvard announced plans to go
online), as well as Trump's tweets that schools must open in Fall.

------
pjc50
Nicely timed to deport HK students back there.

------
conanbatt
I think this is done on purpose but not as an immigration move. Its a play
against universities, a political enemy of Trump.

At the same time this is happening, they are waiving the degree requirement
for federal employment: a nice little monopoly rent universities had, as well
as the immigration one. Americans might not appreciate this but not only
colleges subsist on international students: they subsist on them requiring
degrees for visas and to get preferential visa treatment. It's a path to
residency.

I would have much preferred that there was a semblance of Rule of Law, and it
would be more like discounting college degrees entirely for immigration and
remove special visa privileges for students, but this gov is stupidly against
immigration.

~~~
sg47
Satya Nadella and Sundar Pichai came through this route. It's not a degree for
visa like you think it is.

------
stormdennis
$50,000 a year for a Harvard undergraduate course exclusive of accommodation
and food. Sounds like there's a lot of fat that could be trimmed. Sounds
immoral in fact.

~~~
whalesalad
It's not immoral, it's business. Harvard has presented a product and you are
free to take it or leave it. What _is unfortuntate_ though is that we've been
conditioned as a society to believe that a higher education is the most
valuable thing you could ever earn.

~~~
augustt
So, still immoral. It's gatekeeping upwards mobility with absurd prices.

~~~
whalesalad
You're missing the entire point of my comment - college is antiquated.

~~~
pinkfoot
For neurosurgeons ? Come now.

~~~
whalesalad
Of course there are going to be exceptions to any blanket internet hot take.

------
thehappypm
Well, duh.

If you could get a student visa just by enrolling in a US-based online class,
that would be quite the loophole for immigration.

------
HarryHirsch
The missing perspective is that there are visa mills just as there are diploma
mills, and that enforcement from both Immigration and Customs and Department
of Education is piss-weak. They should have gotten on top of these
institutions long ago, but they wouldn't, so here we are.

There is Georgia Tech, but there is also the College of Northern Virginia.
Here is some background: [https://cis.org/Report/Dregs-Higher-Education-
Damage-Our-Imm...](https://cis.org/Report/Dregs-Higher-Education-Damage-Our-
Immigration-System)

~~~
jhpriestley
The missing context on your comment is that the CIS is a hate group according
to the SPLC, which is among other heinous things in favor of the family
separation policy, a crime against humanity.

~~~
x3n0ph3n3
SPLC is a joke nowadays. They scoop up all sorts of names and label them
hatemongers. It takes a lawsuit to get them to recant: [1]

1\.
[https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/06/maajid-...](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/06/maajid-
nawaz-v-splc/562646/)

~~~
jhpriestley
If you think that one high-profile mistake makes them "a joke" then you might
not be aware of how much work SPLC does. For example, here is their page on
CIS, with hundreds of citations and direct quotes
[https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-
files/grou...](https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-
files/group/center-immigration-studies)

~~~
corey_moncure
Approximately half of these quotes are completely void of race or hate at all.
It's just that one disagrees with the politics of the other.

------
ausjke
Learn from the immigration in Canada is a good idea.

USA immigration system needs reform. No free welfare for anyone who is able to
work. For those who supports excessive welfare, set a donation page for them
to put their money where their mouth is, tax deduction is fine with me though
considering they actually did something instead of just talking the talk or
expecting others do what they talk.

Most importantly, better the education system here first, no more trophy
generation, no more AA for college admission, and reward STEM kids instead of
treating them as nerds in school. Until then, you have to depend on H1B/F1 to
stay ahead, which should only be a temporary fix.

------
LockAndLol
Well it makes sense... If you done actually have to be in the country to take
the courses, then your stay is optional. For students that cannot go back due
to travel restrictions or that have other obligations in the country, it would
make sense to let them stay.

Of course if they come from countries that do not possess the facilities
necessary to access online content, that would put some students in quite a
pickle. Maybe those could also be treated in a special manner, but I doubt
that many would be affected.

Maybe the article wasn't explicit enough, but I'm not quite seeing the problem
with this decision. Maybe the manner of communication?

~~~
humanistbot
> For students that cannot go back due to travel restrictions or that have
> other obligations in the country, it would make sense to let them stay.

These students will not be allowed to stay.

