
Don’t Fly During Ramadan (2013) - luu
https://adityamukerjee.net/2013/08/22/dont-fly-during-ramadan/
======
jiggawatts
By the way, this is the primary reason I've never travelled to the United
States.

The US is missing out on tourism because people overseas read horror stories
like this and scratch it off their want-to-go list. I categorise the US
alongside wonderful places like Saudi Arabia, China, and Russia as a place
where human rights _aren 't_.

I'm a white male of Christian background, I'm not on any "lists" that I know
of, and have no reason to be. I work with government departments in my home
country and have multiple clearance checks, some of which are _very_ thorough.
I sail through airport customs checks in every country.

But clearly the US is number one mainly at being a police state. It's the
world's richest third-world country. It's authoritarian to its core.

In our country we have state-local police, one branch of federal police that
exists only to protect politicians and a few other special duties. That's
about it for uniformed people with arrest powers. Oh, technically we have the
Office of the Sheriff for enforcing court orders, and I think Border Patrol
aren't technically Police. I don't even know. It doesn't really come up as an
issue for law abiding people, irrespective of their skin colour or time of
year. Oh sure, you hear the homeless drug addicts complain about "the pigs"
loudly, but... yeah. They're bound to.

Meanwhile, allow me to list the US police forces or police-like groups that I
know of _the top of my head_ just by watching US-made television shows: State
Troopers, Local and county police, Sherrifs, DEA, ATF, DHS, Military Police,
FBI, ICE, Marshalls, Campus Police(!), Secret Service, and I'm probably
_forgetting a few_.

This is why the black-lives-matter riots are still going on. Your nation's law
enforcement is a militarised, authoritarian nightmare. For someone who doesn't
like being "not arrested for 18 hours" for "looking wrong" and using cleaning
products, it's a place to avoid, not visit.

~~~
Stratoscope
Mind if I ask what country you live in? It sounds like a place we could learn
from.

~~~
sah2ed
IMHO, the parent might be in a former british colony, judging by their
spelling of ‘colour’ instead of the American ‘color’.

~~~
eveningcoffee
It also depends on what spelling corrector you prefer. In Europe you are more
likely to choose British English than US English.

~~~
soco
I'm not sure how important the difference is for a non-native speaker. For me
it definitely isn't, and I mean no offense. It's just, color or colour, both
foreign words so its gonna be whatever the default software thought
appropriate. But we're digressing :)

------
rallison
Great read. And scary, and frustrating.

What might be entirely coincidence, but I found interesting, was that this was
a JetBlue flight from JFK. The one time I triggered the explosives detection
machine was a JetBlue flight from JFK. I had almost nothing special - a
carryon I've used many times before, with clothes and toiletries. I also had
two small fossils I bought from the Evolution store in NYC, which the TSA
agent seemed especially interested in retesting.

In my case though, I just had to deal with a thorough search of the carryon,
confusion from other TSA agents (something like "oh, you searched the carryon?
That wasn't necessary" from one agent to another) and listening to the main
TSA agent wax poetic about how evolution is a lie and how climate change is a
hoax.

~~~
nucleardog
Meanwhile I’ve gone gun range to airport without a change of clothes between
and neither my skin or clothing apparently triggered anything when they
swabbed me...

Not sure what specifically their explosives test is testing for, but when I
realized what I’d done while waiting in the security line the scenario that
played out in my head definitely included them picking up on a wackload of
gunpowder residue.

~~~
kweks
Pyrotechnician here. I've walked off gigs with my hands black from powder,
smelling of powder, with so much powder falling from my bags that the security
guards laughed about how "dirty" my bag was, got swabbed and went through
without issue. Likewise, I have had colleagues travel with 12" mortar shells
in their baggage without any issue.

I can only assume they're checking for deflagrating explosives (TATP, ampho,
etc).

~~~
rrrrrrrrrrrryan
This is tremendously ballsy, and hilarious.

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bengale
I've only travelled to America once, and its the only place of all the places
I've been to where I've been essentially interrogated in the departure lounge
at Heathrow. I don't really recall what he was asking but I remember thinking
it was very strange how rude and hostile he was being. It wasn't much better
on the other side either to be honest. I haven't been back, and don't really
have any intention of going to be honest.

~~~
hkai
I think that's because America made quite a few enemies in the process of
policing the world. Israel is much tougher on inbound travelers for the same
reason.

If America didn't police the world, China would, and we would still have
Soviet Union, and probably Taiwan would not be on the map.

~~~
Ar-Curunir
this is self-righteous “protectors of the world” nonsense

~~~
hkai
Well you can think that way until you are the one they are protecting. Then
it's nice having freedom of travel (thanks to the collapse of the USSR) or
having the most progressive government in Asia (Taiwan). I'm really grateful
to America for doing this.

------
9nGQluzmnq3M
Previous discussion from 2013, when this got 2744 upvotes and 966 comments:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6258422](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6258422)

------
bArray
Outside of the US, every time I go through airport security I am always
"randomly" searched. "Sir, this is just a random search, we do this all the
time" \- I must be incredibly unlucky. Strangely, when I shave I get through
fine.

~~~
hnarn
This might sound cynical but in that case I'd just shave before every flight.
It's the same reason I always fly in a shirt when on business, it's one of
many markers that makes you look like a business flyer, which will mean you're
probably gonna be treated more like one.

In my opinion, we can accept that reality is very severely non-optimal while
still trying our best to avoid the problems that reality causes. Or in the
words of Hunter S. Thompson (maybe misattributed): 'Pray to God, but row away
from the rocks.'

~~~
viklove
I like my beard though, and I'm not bending over backwards to conform to some
security agent's bigoted views. Fuck 'em. My mom called me frantically when I
was in college once and told me to shave my beard because she didn't want me
to be targeted (I'm brown) -- I didn't do it then, and I'm sure as hell not
doing it now.

------
bArray
The lack of rights one has when traveling through an airport is genuinely
scary. As far as I'm aware once you start the security process I don't believe
you can actually stop it without some similar interrogation like this.

I remember a while back I believe it was New Zealand that wanted the ability
to search your devices for BitCoins. I believe at least in the UK it's a
criminal offense to not provide the password to your encrypted device. Unless
things change I'm sure this will just get worse.

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enriquto
Oh my god. I do not know how people can have such patience. If I was subjected
to the same absurd humiliation as the author, I'm afraid I would have
"snapped" angrily and ended in a much worse situation.

~~~
iliekcomputers
When people talk about privilege, this is what they're talking about. A white
person would probably just not be in this situation enough for the need to
comply.

I remember the first time I was flying to the US, I was adviced by multiple
people in the days leading up to the flight, to get rid of my beard, because
it made me look Muslim. From all the stories, it's probably a good precaution
to take. Stuff like this and complying to authority in a polite way even
though all human instinct tells you to be pissed is normal.

------
hyko
People are scared of exploding airplanes, but not of turning the whole world
into prison from which there is no escape.

~~~
hnarn
> turning the whole world into prison from which there is no escape

This kind of alarmist sentiment is meaningless without elaboration. It could
equally be a marxist criticism of wage-slavery as it could be a neo-liberal
critique of the surveillance state.

~~~
hyko
It’s not a Marxist or Neo-liberal critique, just an observation. People are
(rightly) viscerally afraid of dying in a fireball, but are far less animated
about the horrors of living as a non-person, without the right to privacy,
freedom of movement, freedom of speech, freedom of thought, the presumption of
innocence, due process in law, and just all round basic human dignity. The
right to life is an important one, but it can and should be upheld _without
setting fire to all the others_.

Worth just reminding everyone that those rights exist whether the powerful of
the day want to undermine or uphold them; they exist everywhere in the
universe _including airports_. They exist for _all_ people _regardless of
their religion or ethnicity_.

We’re not fooled into forgetting about these immutable rights just because
someone acts as if that they have the authority to negate them. They most
certainly do not.

------
iobug
TSA looks like a govt. run molestation program in internet testimonials.

~~~
blunte
Based on the many stories published about TSA experiences, and based on my own
personal experiences (nothing scary like this 2013 story), I conclude that TSA
does not have particularly high standards for intelligence or empathy.

And to be fair to some of the TSA employees, their jobs look really sucky. Add
to that a sense of power (because obviously they have the power to ruin your
trip and perhaps your life if it causes you to end up on the no-fly list), and
you've got a volatile situation.

~~~
xnyan
I can’t imagine a worse job government job than being a TSA agent. Other
federal agencies think you are a joke, the public mostly hates you and/or
thinks you are a joke, and you make no money, and it’s a boring job were you
have to stand up all day and talk to people at an airport. Oh and there are no
real prospects of career advancement especially at the lower levels, and the
job skills are not incredibly applicable in the outside world.

------
matsemann
Previous discussion from 2017
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13901327](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13901327)
(knew I had read this before)

------
sub7
Cold fact - America is amazing to you if you're wealthy. They're still slave
owners and if you don't know that you're wealthy, then sorry but you're the
slave.

~~~
rtpg
I mean this guy was working in Venture Capital? Probably not hurting for cash.
This seems like clear-cut profiling + law enforcement paranoia and inability
to de-escalate things.

~~~
Scoundreller
And just plain over-resourcing. Doesn’t seem clear why so many different
people from different agencies were required.

~~~
majewsky
In a twisted way, the agents' behavior is actually kind of rational if you
think about it. They prefer false positives to false negatives because the
cost of a false negative is a successful terrorist attack, whereas the cost of
a false positive is an annoyed traveler.

~~~
throwaway4666
The cost of _many_ false negatives is an overall worse quality of life for
everyone, especially for targeted groups, _and_ the enactment of a massive
surveillance apparatus to enforce that QoL degradation.

~~~
donpott
which is the stated end goal of many a terrorist organisation.

------
growlist
I've been around a fair bit including a few trips across borders at which
you'd expect a bit of a grilling, such as the Eastern Bloc before the fall of
the Berlin Wall, and Israel; but nothing prepared me for the absolute
aggressive rudeness of US immigration.

------
mnm1
Interesting how the TSA pretends it is police when it isn't. Also interesting
the level of stupidity and incompetence shown by every asshole of every
organization involved. Perhaps people are starting to see now, thanks to BLM,
that law enforcement is made up of extreme assholes who enjoy cruelty and
hate. Not just cops but even non law enforcement organizations with power like
the TSA. It's built into the culture, this sick power-hungry drive to hurt and
control others so that one can feel superior. Even the airline agent displays
it because of that. I doubt there are many people in power in the US who don't
display this. Certainly have never met any myself.

------
ciconia
I have been mostly flying to visit my family who live in another country, but
in the last 10 years flying has become such an unpleasant experience, even
when not being singled-out by airport security. Actually, with the current
crisis going on I am quite content about not having to deal with going on a
plane again.

I mean, airports are such hostile places, it feels like you're just a chunk of
meat going through a meat grinder. As others here have remarked, it wasn't
always like that, but then again, people haven't been flying that often, so
maybe scale has something to with it as well.

------
9nGQluzmnq3M
(2013). Not that anything has changed for the better.

------
fegu
As most I have only anecdotal evidence for border police differences. But I do
still sometimes think about how it once took 4 hours of queueing with no
toilet no water and a sign that said no mobile phone use to get in to the US
at Newark (after thorough passport examinations), while in Iran that same year
there was no queue and a smile and a wave. I am a white Scandinavian.

------
sdan
Just shows how much implicit (and in this case, explicit) bias there is

------
stareatgoats
One may lament the state of things in the US after 9/11, and be justified to
so to some extent. The thing I want to lament however, is the near zero
insight into the dynamics and logic of terrorism: in essence, that this is
what terrorists want.

Terrorists want to strike fear into normal citizens so that they ask for
revenge - and more protection. Which results in draconian measures that paves
way for authoritarianism which leads to more recruits for the terrorists (on
all sides). And so a vicious circle takes off. We are being played,
essentially.

In some distant future maybe this logic could be taught in primary schools, so
that society could be forever inoculated. Sadly such a vaccine seems a long
way off.

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z3t4
Maybe the photo got him free. Like an agent took it in order to explain to the
others he was not in fact a Usama Bin laden guy.

------
Scoundreller
What’s missing was the DOT complaint for compensation for JetBlue for
Involuntarily Denied Boarding.

------
TimSchumann
Good read and a great reminder. That shaking feeling described is... yeah.

------
RalfWausE
Its funny... in the past (up to the aftermath of 9/11) i wanted to visit the
US, but the urge dropped significantly every year since then.

Even more funny: As a totally "aryan" looking dude without any political
involvement i would not even have problems getting there.

------
KingOfCoders
Luckily he wasn't Sikh.

~~~
enriquto
Does the TSA hold a special grudge against Sikhs? (not that it would surprise
me, just asking why you pointed that)

~~~
kweks
In theory, Sikhs must carry five items of faith, one of which is a "kırpan",
which is a type of dagger.

~~~
hnarn
Interesting, I had never heard about this before. Apparently it "only" dates
back to the year 1699, and it was a commandment for the "Khalsa" Sikhs, which
to my understanding is a subset of Sikhs. Wikipedia says that:

> In the United Kingdom, there have been tensions between the Khalsa Sikhs and
> the non-Khalsa Sikhs. Many Sikhs in Britain have insisted on their right of
> not conforming to the Khalsa norms while maintaining that they are truly
> Sikh. On the other hand, some of the Khalsa Sikhs think of the non-Khalsa
> Sikhs as having abandoned the Sikh faith altogether.

Anyway, for reference, the five K:s are: Kesh (uncut hair), Kangha (a wooden
comb for the hair), Kara (an iron bracelet), Kachera (100% cotton tieable
undergarment, not an elastic one) and Kirpan (an iron dagger large enough to
defend oneself).

------
taneq
My days of not ever wanting to revisit the U.S. - especially by air - are
certainly coming to a middle.

~~~
bryanrasmussen
what does coming to a middle mean - I would take it to mean that if you will
have a range of 2000 consecutive days of not wanting to visit the US you would
be at day 1000.

~~~
xwdv
It means he stopped wanting to visit some time ago, and after a similar
duration from back then to now passes he will like to visit again.

~~~
taneq
Yep, I mean there were a lot of good things about the U.S. and I'd like to go
back _someday_ but stories like this would give me pause even if COVID-19
wasn't running rampant and social unrest amplifying.

Also Firefly, though.

