
U.S. Blacklists Alibaba Unit Over Counterfeit Sales - CapitalistCartr
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/21/business/us-blacklists-alibaba-taobao.html
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imjustsaying
I intentionally bought a 512GB usb drive from Taobao to see what would happen.
It was something ridiculously cheap like $10, far cheaper than any other 512GB
at the time.

Taobao said I needed to return the product to the seller in order to get a
refund. I told them I would send it to Taobao corporate or the police, but
under no other circumstances would I ship counterfeit materials through the
mail, reinforcing the supplies of the scammer and perpetuating the fraud.

I sent them a disk space audit demonstrating that there was in fact only 32GB
on the device, showed them articles showing that there was only one other
512GB USB drive on the market at the time and that it cost well over 10x the
amount listed.

I invited them repeatedly to view the product itself, but I only ever got the
same standard canned response to return the counterfeit products to the
seller.

~~~
sandworm101
Thats not a counterfiet good. It's fraud, it's claiming something is more than
it is, but it isnt counterfeit unless they are abusing trademarks. Which marks
were at issue? You might consider contacting them as they are as much a victim
as you.

~~~
imjustsaying
You're correct, initially it was merely fraud, but counterfeit dimensions soon
emerged.

I should also mention that when I received the package, the USB drive was
inside of Kingston USB drive packaging, which surprised me because they didn't
describe it as a Kingston product on the listing page.

I can suppose the rationale for Kingston packaging was that Kingston was the
only provider of 512GBs at the time, and its addition was a way to sell the
fraud's narrative should any doubt later arise, such as after getting
mysteriously corrupted data whenever more than 32GB was used.

I had live chats about the case with different customer service agents over a
period of months. However, every time I spoke about the issue, it was like the
previous hour-long conversations had never happened. Each time, I had to get
the agent up to speed on the situation from the ground up, resending the
images of evidence, re-explaining that I would be happy to return the item but
only to the police or to Taobao corporate instead of resupplying and becoming
the accomplice of a suspected criminal.

As far as I could tell, there was no internal procedure for investigating the
possibility of fraud or counterfeit. The customer service agents only ever
viewed the case through a general return heuristic. The first and final
recommendation was always to "return the product to the seller."

~~~
sandworm101
THAT's counterfiet. Im betting that the use whatevet cases they can get cheap
out the back door of a factory.

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tyingq
It doesn't mention what the "blacklist" actually is, or does.

Does it actually prevent purchases on world.taobao.com from US buyers?

Edit: Found the actual document "2016 Out of Cycle Review - Notorious
Markets". Pretty much a curated list of where to buy counterfeit stuff, if
you're so inclined: [https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/2016-Out-of-Cycle-
Revie...](https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/2016-Out-of-Cycle-Review-
Notorious-Markets.pdf)

~~~
gravypod
I'll need to check out some of these places

> The GongChang platform specializes in industrial products

> Nanjing Imperiosus, based in China, is reported to disproportionately
> provide services to illegal online pharmacies

Anyone know if buying things from these sites is illegal? I'm interested in
Nanjing Imperiosus for the curiosity of what the hell they could even be
selling and GongChang for buying some industrial equiptment eventually (I want
to get into machining and so I need a heavy supply of shady Chinese garbadge
to help build cool things)

~~~
untog
Items manufactured in China then officially sold in the US will have to pass
safety tests. Fakes you buy online will not.

To each their own, but I wouldn't be thinking about buying industrial
equipment that doesn't have safety checks attached.

~~~
contingencies
Just look for a manufacturer with a decent rating on Taobao/Alibaba/whatever,
a decent product range and website. It's not that hard.

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beambot
Lollipuff (YC W'13 - [https://www.lollipuff.com](https://www.lollipuff.com))
was started precisely to address this counterfeit issue -- focused on high-end
women's fashion. We built out a backend that allows us to authenticate luxury
goods using photos alone. It works through a combination of (1) very specific
photos; (2) automated software; and (3) a trained (non-expert) authenticator.

We recently expanded from being just a P2P auction service (competing with the
likes of Alibaba & eBay) to offering our Authentication Tool as a service,
which can compliment their sites: [https://www.lollipuff.com/authentication-
service/](https://www.lollipuff.com/authentication-service/)

~~~
squeaky-clean
Not a downvoter, but I also don't see Alibaba as a "problem" this fixes. I
know a few people who buy luxury fashion goods on there entirely because it's
fake/replicas. If you're buying $900 boots for $90, I hope you don't believe
they're real.

It's like downloading something from thepiratebay and being surprised that
it's not a legal means of download. It's more of a problem on Amazon or eBay,
where prices are closer/equal to retail and things are falsely listed.

~~~
beambot
(I removed the downvote kvetching; sorry.)

I'd encourage you to look at the frontpage of Lollipuff or in the eBay fashion
sections -- you can absolutely find items that retail for $900 new for
purchase in a resale market for $90 used. It's sort of like going to GoodWill.

If people want to buy "replicas", that's fine. In some jurisdictions it's even
legally permissible to sell replicas without running afoul of laws, so long as
they are marketed accordingly (though stamps & logos tend to be strongly
protected).

But if Taobao / Alibaba would like to sell in the US, they must make the
distinction between replicas and original brands clear -- and must enforce it.
That's not an easy task.

~~~
squeaky-clean
> I'd encourage you to look at the frontpage of Lollipuff or in the eBay
> fashion sections -- you can absolutely find items that retail for $900 new
> for purchase in a resale market for $90 used. It's sort of like going to
> GoodWill.

Used, yeah of course. But you won't find them for that cheap new, which you
definitely can on Alibaba (obviously not legitimate).

edit: Just checked out the site. Can't seem to find anything for Men?

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stevesun21
I can buy a lot of counterfeit stuff on eBay and Amazon. Blacklisting Alibaba
sounds to me is like that U.S gov is trying to block other companies to
compete with U.S companies, like eBay and Amazon.

~~~
plandis
What products are you finding that are counterfeit on Amazon? You should
report them to Amazon.

~~~
microtherion
Apple products have already been mentioned, and one of the risks there is that
counterfeit chargers tend to cut corners in their design and thus can be much
less safe.

Another category I know of are Arduinos. It has often been noted that, since
Amazon warehouses commingle stock of "identical" products from different
vendors, the reputation of the marketplace vendor won't even protect you,
since the vendors have no control whether you got a genuine item or a
counterfeit off the pile (Not sure whether that is an ongoing practice, but it
was widely reported a few years ago).

~~~
contingencies
AFAIK original Arduino hardware is not a copyright design, and has actually
been improved upon for most deployments (ie. made cheaper) in China, eg. by
replacing with cheaper UART chipset.

~~~
icebraining
Nitpick: the Arduino hardware design is copyrighted, but released under a CC
license.

~~~
microtherion
And the Arduino designers do not object to people copying the electronic
design (even less so if there are design changes like substituting in a
different serial chip). What they ARE objecting to is people copying the
branding and graphics (down to the "made in Italy"):
[https://blog.arduino.cc/2013/07/10/send-in-the-
clones/](https://blog.arduino.cc/2013/07/10/send-in-the-clones/)

Still, different serial chips mean different device drivers, so one product
shouldn't be sold under the other's name.

------
donquichotte
Interesting, it seems like they're trying to protect Amazon. I can understand
people moving from Amazon to Aliexpress though. When I'm looking for stuff on
Amazon, it is often difficult to find out whether they ship to my country and
if so, how much the delivery costs. Often, great deals from the US don't ship
to Europe. On Aliexpress, everything ships everywhere. You type in you country
and currency and have full information.

~~~
pen2l
Huh, is Alibaba really very comparable to Amazon for the everyday consumer?

I was under the impression that they weren't exactly targeting the same
consumers. I thought Alibaba was moreso for resellers, folks who buy in large
quantities and such to sell it themselves later.

Would you recommend that I, an American, start looking at Alibaba as an Amazon
alternative for everyday things?

~~~
paganel
> Huh, is Alibaba really very comparable to Amazon for the everyday consumer

I live in Romania and around these parts Aliexpress already has a big presence
among your "everyday consumer". I visit the Postal office closest to my
workplace every week and during the last or so year I've started seeing more
and more young people (under 25, mostly women) who had come to collect the
stuff they had ordered from China (most probably from Aliexpress). Around
these parts Amazon is only known and partially used for purchasing books.

~~~
Freak_NL
I've noticed that a lot of the feedback on AliExpress comes from Russia,
Eastern European countries, and the assorted former Soviet Union satellite
states. Do you know why it is so popular there? Is it a lack of local web
shops?

From what I can tell AliExpress is mostly popular as a cheap source of (low
voltage) electrical components here in The Netherlands. People buy clothing
from local web shops (or traditional brick and mortar shops) due to speed,
quality, and friendly returns policies though.

~~~
niftich
There are local web shops, but most I've seen are specialized around
electronics vs. generic home goods. There are also online portals for brick-
and-mortar stores, but the experience is clearly not the same.

AliExpress offers a smattering of stuff you didn't know you needed until you
see it, and it melds several businesses into one: the Newegg-knockoff website
you've used before, the phone case stall at the mall, the Chinese clothing
market that sets up at the fairgrounds, the random home goods from that
downtown department store you haven't been to in five years.

------
bskdjx
Hmmm I've received so much counterfeit stuff from amazon. I wonder if we'll
also block the American company of a politically well connected billionaire?

Well I can dream.

~~~
sschueller
Amazon does an extremely poor job. There are items that are clearly
counterfeit, review after review states it, yet the item is still available.

For example, there is a device called the "Split-Ender" which is only sold
directly. The items is not sold on Amazon yet there are tons of fakes on
Amazon [1]. The manufacture seems unable to get Amazon to remove them. Amazon
doesn't even have to distinguish if the items is real or not in this case. The
device should not be on Amazon, period.

[1] [https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-
alias%3...](https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-
alias%3Daps&field-keywords=split+ender)

~~~
ikeboy
How do you know people aren't buying from the manufacturer or indirect sources
(other countries, liquidation/clearance from stores, any number of other grey
market sources) and reselling?

There are many items sold on Amazon that the manufacturer doesn't sell direct
nor sell to sellers to sell direct, but somehow people still manage to get
stock.

Amazon isn't going to take down a listing unless the manufacturer can prove
that it's infringing. They will block specific sellers if you can show they're
selling fakes, and it's not that hard to do (place a test order, then report).

~~~
sschueller
The manufacturer does not permit it.

Here is another example: Crestron, they specifically do not permit sales on
Amazon, ebay etc. The only way to acquire their hardware is to go via a
Crestron authorized dealer or becoming one yourself. Yet there is crestron
hardware on Amazon...

The reason being is that their hardware requires programming and unless you
are familiar with how it works you will have a very bad experience.

~~~
wbl
If the store closes shop and goes bankrupt, and the court orders the goods
auctioned off, whoever buys them buys them. Heck, when you go to the store,
you own the thing you buy and can do whatever the heck you want with it,
including selling it.

~~~
throwaw12ay
Counterfeit products are destroyed, they are never auctioned. A court cannot
order the auction of known counterfeit items, thats just crazy talk. And one
cannot resell a counterfeit product, that's illegal.

~~~
detaro
They are talking about a seller of the original stuff, not about counterfeits.

It's possible that there are ways for the manufacturer to maintain control in
case of an authorized seller's bankruptcy (e.g. not actually selling it to
them until it's transferred to customer should work), but if they actually
transfer it to them they only can demand contractual damages from them, not
stop a buyer from doing anything with the product.

------
finid
After watching/reading [1], I did a search for "fake rice" on Alibaba and got
back almost 500 results.

[1] [http://www.bbc.com/news/world-
africa-38402696](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-38402696)

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jister
Hmm...I don't think it's not about counterfeit sales. It's more on politics.

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hackalaugh
So does this mean there are good deals on alibaba?

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sandworm101
Realize that submissions to these lists come from industry reps. They are not
created by some team of investigators. There is no budget for such things.
Groups like the MPAA submit names and a yearly list is issued. Thats why
nobody beyond diplomats pay any attention. It's only about the headline.

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intrasight
I don't even see what it has to do with me as an American shopper as they are
a Chinese shopping portal.

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ww520
OT: does NTY have a voting ring? Seeing lots of posts from them these days.

~~~
icameron
Also OT: but how do I view the article? I get subscription advertisements and
the link won't show the article. How are you all reading the article?

~~~
rando444
If you ever have any problems viewing an article, click on 'web' up at the top
and then open the link from google.

If you still have problems, try using an incognito window.

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wcummings
In this context "IP rights" are a protectionist policy, just one that happens
to benefit America, which exports heaps of IP. If it's the same handbags made
in the same factory but cheaper...

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throwawayqts
wowie......... this obviously goes too for ali express?

I read the article because I'm a U.S. citizen and have ordered things from ali
express (I'm not in the u.s. tho'). It says only "Being blacklisted does not
carry any penalties, but it is a blow to Alibaba."

As an individual, or if I were in the u.s., can I continue to order non-
namebrand things from Ali express?

What exactly is the "blacklist"?

Like everyone else, I'm careful not to do stuff like trade with embargod
country's etc.

Question: What does this mean for individuals? (Like me.) Or small businesses
for that case.

Actually the things I order aren't name-brand anyway but I'm curious if this
has any other meaning other than "buyer be ware"....

