
 Is IE8 already a legacy browser? Google thinks so. - jabo
http://jasonbos.co/ie8-a-legacy-web-browser-0
======
code_duck
Compared to the latest browsers from everyone else, yes.

Unfortunately, Microsoft's style seems to be to release browsers that are
obsolete before they're even available. IE9 is a nice step ahead, but it
leaves out a lot of nice technologies that could have moved the web forward.
As Mozilla shifts to faster releases, and Chrome, Safari and webkit in general
steam ahead, it's sad to think that we won't see IE 10 for another couple of
years at the soonest.

The way IE is developed is a relic of the desktop software era. Mozilla
recognized that to keep up with Google, they needed to change how their
browser is developed and released - I pray that something vital is changed to
make that possible for MS and IE as well.

~~~
Meai
There are already previews of ie10 floating around, and it was shown on
mix'11. I think it's going to be released with Windows 8

~~~
code_duck
Which will be released in... 18 to 24 months? Will the adoption rate of IE 9
even be 25% of IE users by then?

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jabo
One thing that surprises me is how when MS comes up with non-standard
technologies for IE it makes them look like the bad guys, but when Google
comes up with non-standard stuff (aka bleeding edge innovation) everyone
embraces it. Imagine Microsoft launching something like the IE App Store.

~~~
yid
IE's worst sins were MS-only extensions for which standards _already existed_.
Goog, on the other hand, at least aims for backwards compatibility and
standards compliance (see SPDY and false start SSL handshakes)

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asadotzler
Modern browsers share several things in common. If you're not a modern
browser, then you're a legacy browser.

Modern browsers have most of these:

Super-fast JavaScript engines Hardware acceleration for graphics and text HTML
audio and video elements and APIs SVG for vector graphics ForeignObject for
bringing HTML into SVG HTML canvas element and API for 2D Some useful CSS 3
support like border radius, text shadow, transforms and transitions, etc. HTML
History API WebGL for 3D graphics Web Workers Application Cache

These are the features that let Web developers build a richer caliber of Web
applications. IE 9 is a little bit short on some of these items, but I think
it's got enough to qualify it as being part of the gang of Modern browsers.

IE 8 has none of this. IE 8 was really not much more than IE7 with improved
CSS 2.1 support, and IE7 wasn't much more than IE6 with tabbed browsing.

So, yes, IE 8 is a legacy browser. It's the new IE6 -- the boat anchor around
the necks of Web developers who want to move the Web forward.

Even worse, Microsoft is leaving behind hundreds of millions of users who are
currently running IE 7 and 8, saying that IE8 is the end of the road for
Windows XP. It's pretty clear that Microsoft is making the big break with
legacy between IE8 and IE9. 8 is the past, 9 is the present.

~~~
Silhouette
> Modern browsers have most of these:

Well, modern browsers have some form of most of those, often different to the
form in any other modern browser.

HTML5 video is a great example. It's a nice idea, but as long as everyone is
having childish arguments over which formats they're going to support, many of
us who have to produce real world applications for real world users are still
going to use Flash. (Sorry, Apple.)

If and when the sorts of features you described are standardised such that web
developers can write one version of their code and have a fair chance of it
running on all modern browsers, then you'll have a case. Until then, I'm
afraid it's just your personal, and inevitably biased, wish list.

> These are the features that let Web developers build a richer caliber of Web
> applications.

Can you give us some examples?

> IE 8 has none of this. IE 8 was really not much more than IE7 with improved
> CSS 2.1 support, and IE7 wasn't much more than IE6 with tabbed browsing.

Writing silly things like that makes you look rather foolish. For example,
you've just defined "super-fast JavaScript engines" as a necessary criteria
for a modern browser, and then immediately glossed over orders-of-magnitude
improvements in real world JS performance between successive versions of IE.
Of course faster JS engines are never going to do any harm, other things being
equal, but IE8 runs JS fast enough to be useful.

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glhaynes
Good. IE9’s failings are annoying but not _nearly_ as annoying as IE8's.

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pohl
Well, being that it only runs on a legacy OS...

Seriously, though, isn't 9 current and 10 expected soon?

~~~
jabo
IE 9 is already out there. It works on Vista and 7 only though. If only Google
comes up with a way to work fully with MS's Group Policies, Chrome will most
surely take over the enterprise world. I think the big enterprises which use
MS technologies keep IE still going. It's not like they have a choice though.

~~~
911-inside_job
IE 6.0 is the perfect browser for the enterprise or at least the perfect
stable platform for enterprise web applications.

Chrome updates are released every few days, who is supposed to test if all
internal apps still work?

~~~
evilduck
Selenium? Are you saying you _don't_ have automated testing in an enterprise
situation?

~~~
Silhouette
Automated testing of UIs will only ever cover a relatively limited range of
observable behaviour we might care about. Like a lot of unit testing, it's one
of those ideas that works really neatly if you're writing a simple database
front-end or calculator that deals only with easily parsed/rendered data that
is input and output via well-defined, programmable interfaces.

Unfortunately, most UIs aren't built with that kind of code. Tools like
Selenium aren't going to help you spot that the browser is rendering your page
elements with a z-order bug, the canvas/SVG output has an aliasing problem,
and your entire page design is getting a flickering scrollbar effect because
of a change in the font rendering when the underline for a link appears. (And
those are just examples of possible browser bugs, not even counting testing
your own code to make sure the UI is rendering properly to a human looking at
a screen.)

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robryan
From a developer standpoint it feels like IE8 is closer to IE7 than the modern
browsers, still needs hacks plenty of hacks.

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dstein
Considering IE9 is one whole generation behind the other browsers, it too
should be considered a legacy browser.

~~~
etaty
Douglas Crockford said : "I have good hope for IE10, but all previous IE
should die".

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jabo
Silhouette and 911-inside_job: You guys should really read this:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2575632>

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mickeyben
Do you know some big websites using the Google Chrome Frame in production ?

If you're using it, any experience to share ?

~~~
jabo
Using Chrome Frame is just a matter of adding "<meta http-equiv="X-UA-
Compatible" content="IE=Edge,chrome=1">" to a page. I haven't used it yet, but
the Chrome team recently announced at Google I/O that users can install Chrome
Frame without the need for admin rights. Given that Google is taking an effort
to promote Chrome Frame and making it accessible to several users restricted
by corporate IT policies, there should be more adopters soon.

~~~
Silhouette
Google are actively encouraging people to circumvent corporate IT policies?!
No wonder so many corporate IT departments are sticking by Microsoft: at least
they make it reasonably straightforward for sysadmins to manage policies
across a whole workplace.

I hadn't heard of Chrome Frame until this discussion, but the basic
suggestions at <http://code.google.com/chrome/chromeframe/> sound a lot like
"This page best viewed in $BROWSER at $RESOLUTION". Didn't we learn that
lesson yet?

~~~
jabo
"I hadn't heard of Chrome Frame until this discussion"

> Google I/O 2011 -
> [http://www.google.com/events/io/2011/sessions/html5-today-
> wi...](http://www.google.com/events/io/2011/sessions/html5-today-with-
> google-chrome-frame.html)

> Google I/O 2010 - [http://www.google.com/events/io/2010/sessions/using-
> chrome-f...](http://www.google.com/events/io/2010/sessions/using-chrome-
> frame.html)

"at least they make it reasonably straightforward for sysadmins to manage
policies across a whole workplace."

> Google recently came up Administrative templates for Chrome. But I wonder
> why they didn't push it enough to IT departments -
> [http://www.google.com/support/installer/bin/answer.py?answer...](http://www.google.com/support/installer/bin/answer.py?answer=146164#Technical_Overview)

~~~
Silhouette
I appreciate the links from a personal perspective, but they don't seem to
contradict the advice on the Google Chrome Frame project page I mentioned,
which actually suggests redirecting users to an installation page if they
visit your site in IE and don't already have GCF installed. That sort of
tactic is usually associated with either malware or the 1990s where I come
from...

In any case, there is something very shady about the whole project. If people
want to use Chrome, let them use Chrome, but please let's not start making IE
pretend it's Chrome (or was it the other way around?). How on earth are
corporate IT support people supposed to deal with requests for help from non-
technical people once we start down that path?

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Ruudjah
IE8 does not do html5. Therefore, it's a legacy browser. Makes perfect sense
to me.

