
Unclogging Toilets at $400k a Flush Hits Navy’s Costs - smacktoward
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-24/unclogging-toilets-at-400-000-a-flush-among-navy-cost-overruns
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evan_
People are having a lot of fun with this headline, and it is shockingly
expensive, but it's pretty important to point out that the costly "flush" is a
periodic maintenance procedure. It doesn't literally cost $400k every time
someone flushes a toilet.

~~~
Fezzik
It is confusing as written - the $400k us for the occasional system flush, not
per each flush of each sailor. I get that they wanted the word-play, but it
would have been clearer to just write “400k for a periodic system flush”,
instead of un/intentionally obfuscating it.

~~~
manigandham
Nobody would click on this article otherwise.

~~~
Nuzzerino
That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be.

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jdxcode
This is wild. You really only need the first and (weirdly) last paragraphs
though:

> "New toilets on the Navy’s two newest aircraft carriers clog so frequently
> that the ships’ sewage systems must be cleaned periodically with specialized
> acids costing about $400,000 a flush, according to a new congressional audit
> outlining $130 billion in underestimated long-term maintenance costs."

> ...

> “The pipes are too narrow and when there are a bunch of sailors flushing the
> toilet at the same time, like in the morning, the suction doesn’t work,”
> said Oakley. “The Navy didn’t anticipate this problem.”

~~~
mjevans
Root cause: Insufficient engineering safety margins.

Solution: Re-engineer a new solution, retrofit.

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anovikov
This isn't an apartment block. That's a combat ship. If they see a problem
they might even fix it with administrative measures like locking out a part of
bathrooms to limit their peak load, that's it. There are strict space and
weight concerns, especially as any weight on a ship, especially top weight,
pulls a lot, lot of other weight with it...

~~~
scarejunba
They actually did what the other guy is saying, though.

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joshsabol46
> Overall, the Ford’s estimated lifetime operations and sustainment costs have
> grown to $123 billion from $77.3 billion, the most of six programs GAO
> evaluated.

That's an expensive boat.

~~~
pjleonhardt
Its a floating city, a floating airport, 2 nuclear reactors, supports 4500
people, and go at > 30 knots. Yeah, that comes at a cost.

~~~
Dylan16807
27 million dollars of upkeep per person is still pretty ridiculous. How many
parts are they burning up on a daily basis?

~~~
manigandham
Why is the "per-person" cost relevant?

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Dylan16807
Because, after you remove the cost of having the crew and supplying them with
basic maintenance parts, it gives you an idea of how many people on the ground
are needed to support each person onboard, _just_ to supply expensive parts
that are being constantly burned through.

Ideally this supply of burned-up parts would not be particularly huge.

But I didn't realize that number was for a full fifty years, so I'll take back
the 'ridiculous'. It's still a whole lot.

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pcurve
“New toilets on the Navy’s two newest aircraft carriers clog so frequently
that the ships’ sewage systems must be cleaned periodically with specialized
acids costing about $400,000 a flush..... The pipes are too narrow and when
there are a bunch of sailors flushing the toilet at the same time, like in the
morning, the suction doesn’t work,” said Oakley. “The Navy didn’t anticipate
this problem.”

Sure you can quantify the cost of the flush job. Harder to quantify is the
cumulative stress put on sailors due to basics things like toilet not working
properly.

My home toilet is serviceable, but it isn't great. So I absolutely adore
powerful toilet flush at our corporate office. It's like airplane toilet at
sea level.

~~~
youeseh
This can also be fixed by fixing what they feed the sailors.

~~~
DonHopkins
I don't know if giving all the sailors diarrhea just so the pipes don't clog
is such a wise trade-off.

~~~
youeseh
I'm sure there's a middle ground between bricks and slurry =).

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malandrew
Just place all toilets at the outside wall of the ship and have them go to the
bathroom right into the ocean. the waste will trivially dilute in 352
quintillion gallons of water.

~~~
eesmith
My limited understanding is that Marpol Annex IV says that's not allowed,
except in US waters and if US law allows.

[http://www.marpoltraining.com/MMSKOREAN/MARPOL/Annex_IV/r11....](http://www.marpoltraining.com/MMSKOREAN/MARPOL/Annex_IV/r11.htm)

I wonder if a country can prohibit a US Navy ship from free passage if it
violates MARPOL.

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DonHopkins
My god, that's 40 toilet seat covers per flush!!!

[https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/jul/10/senator-
dem...](https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/jul/10/senator-demands-
answers-pentagons-10k-toilet-seat/)

(Or adjusted for inflation: 625 toilet seat covers per flush, in 1986 toilet
seats.)

[https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-
xpm-1986-07-30-vw-18804-...](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-
xpm-1986-07-30-vw-18804-story.html)

~~~
vesinisa
> that's 40 toilet seat covers per flush

Yes, another example of scandalous but misleading article headline. Reading
along, the astronomical cost is in fact quite understandable:

> while the actual cost of the toilet cover is relatively low, it’s not
> something a manufacturer regularly produces. So the company ends up halting
> other production to make the cover, and the government ends up paying the
> costs of lost production. [...] C-5 is an old aircraft with limited
> manufacturing resources. Producing a new latrine cover required reverse-
> engineering the part, with new drawings and recasting a new mold. And since
> so few replacements are needed, the amortized cost is high.

Also:

> toilet covers, which can be 3D printed for $300 [...] service is looking at
> ways to bring down those costs by turning to methods such as 3D printing.
> [...] “We are reproducing those parts now, so we are no longer buying seats
> at that price,” Air Force spokesperson said.

So by the time the article was written the $10k toilet cover was in fact
history.

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Fire-Dragon-DoL
I can't help but think "that's some costly s--t!"

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jacknews
surely just add a minimum-pressure latch to the flush?

If there's not enough suck, it won't flush, reducing the problem to
absolutely-simultaneous flushes etc?

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peteretep
Aside: do the US really still need carriers to project air power? I wonder
where in the world the US can't just lean on a local ally to provide an
airbase + some cash.

~~~
simonblack
Air power is pretty much the transfer of explosives from one place to another.
In other words, a carrier is a better battleship than a battleship.

In modern times, however, a ship with a bunch of missiles is a better carrier
than a carrier. An electronic circuit board is a braver and more accurate
pilot than a pilot.

Even better, cut out the middle man. Forget the ship, just send the missiles
directly from home to the enemy.

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m0zg
A year's worth of FAANG salary flushed down the drain every time someone drops
too heavy a deuce. As far as government waste goes, this example is very
impressive, and should take the crown from $30K toilet seats, $5K screwdrivers
and $1300 coffee cups. And if you want to audit it, you can do so for a small
fee of $400M:

[https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-
features/pent...](https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-
features/pentagon-budget-mystery-807276/)

~~~
jtms
Nice hot take on the headline... maybe actually read the article and add
something a bit more substantial to the discussion?

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m0zg
Is there anything more "substantial" to add? US Military is legendary for
flushing money down the drain. Quite literally in this case.

