
Penn Station Reborn - uptown
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/09/30/opinion/penn-station-reborn.html
======
dluan
For the past month I've lived two blocks from Penn Station. In fact, I go
through the 34th St Penn Station subway stop at least twice a day.

Midtown is such a barren wasteland of concreteness. Walking through the
garment district feels like you're a tiny mouse in a gigantic grey maze. If
you happen to be on 7th or 8th looking north or south, then you get blinded by
the lights of MSG or times square. The entire environment is aggressively
imposing and claustrophobic, and going underground into Penn Station is 10x
worse. I've ridden the LIRR and NJ transit a few times now, and if I were to
go in today I would still get lost.

One of the coolest things about Tokyo's train lines is the layers of walkways
stacked vertically above roads and between other paths (e.g. shibuya), so that
you're often looking into the shared space that's the big public intersection
in the middle. It feels more open and there's trees.

Cool cities make you feel like you're part of something bigger, and a big
factor of that is shared open public space. Penn station makes you feel like a
pinball bouncing between turnstiles.

~~~
vdnkh
Midtown Manhattan is a sinfully ugly tourist trap, especially around Penn. I'd
argue it's the worst neighborhood by far. It's a twinkle in tourist's eyes but
I avoid it like the plague.

The thing about Penn too is that it's extremely difficult to calculate your
bearings. There's no significant landmarks to orient yourself by - every
corridor looks the same. I use Penn regularly and I occasionally get lost if I
happen to use a different entrance.

~~~
cafard
The other thing about Penn is that the city dealt with the homeless by
removing most of the seating. If you aren't an Acela passenger, you can go
into a restaurant or you can stand. I don't really mind standing, but I find
it annoying as the only real choice.

~~~
sampo
Not a lot of seats in the Grand Central, either.

~~~
sbmassey
There are a bunch downstairs in the food area, if you count that

------
alexhutcheson
As a counterpoint, I'd recommend reading Alon Levy's blog post "Why the Focus
On Penn Station?"[1]. The TL;DR is that the 650,000/day ridership number
significantly overstates actual ridership, and includes subway ridership that
wouldn't really benefit from most proposed improvements.

There are far better uses for transit funding in the NYC area. Even within
Penn Station, the low-hanging fruit would come by improving the track level
(wider platforms/fewer tracks), rather than the concourses.

If this piques your interest, Levy's "Eliminate Penn Station" proposal[2] is
worth a read, although he admits it's somewhat trollish.

[1]
[https://pedestrianobservations.wordpress.com/2013/05/31/quic...](https://pedestrianobservations.wordpress.com/2013/05/31/quick-
note-why-the-focus-on-penn-station/) [2]
[https://pedestrianobservations.wordpress.com/2015/07/15/elim...](https://pedestrianobservations.wordpress.com/2015/07/15/eliminate-
penn-station/)

~~~
bradleyjg
I have to agree. The destruction of the old Penn Station was a tragedy, but it
is over and done with. We need to look forward to what the best use of
resources is today for the people of NYC. And that's not a pretty building --
it's increased capacity, resiliency, and safety.

~~~
bogomipz
"We need to look forward to what the best use of resources is today for the
people of NYC. And that's not a pretty building -- it's increased capacity,
resiliency, and safety."

But those two things needn't be be mutually exclusive right? There are plenty
of modern examples that offer both.

The Santiago Calatrava World Trade Center Station in downtown Manhattan, The
Gare de Oriente in Lisbon, the Rotterdam Centraal in the Netherlands, Liège-
Guillemins railway station in Belgium are all examples that combine both
practicality and good aesthetics.

For those interested:

[http://www.archdaily.com/783965/world-trade-center-
transport...](http://www.archdaily.com/783965/world-trade-center-
transportation-hub-santiago-calatrava)

[http://inhabitat.com/santiago-calatravas-gorgeous-oriente-
st...](http://inhabitat.com/santiago-calatravas-gorgeous-oriente-station-is-
topped-with-a-leaf-like-canopy-that-looks-lighter-than-air/oriente-station-
lisbon-portugal-1/)

[http://www.dezeen.com/2009/12/02/liege-guillemins-station-
by...](http://www.dezeen.com/2009/12/02/liege-guillemins-station-by-santiago-
calatrava/)

[http://www.archdaily.com/588218/rotterdam-central-station-
be...](http://www.archdaily.com/588218/rotterdam-central-station-benthem-
crouwel-architects-mvsa-meyer-en-van-schooten-architecten-and-west-8)

~~~
moogly
Call me old-fashioned, but all of those look positively hideous to me.

------
sampo
For comparison, the new (opened in 2006) Berlin Hauptbahnhof (main railway
station) is a similar multilevel open space all the way down to the railway
tracks at the bottom, all under a shell of glass walls and ceiling.

[http://architektur.mapolismagazin.com/sites/default/files/be...](http://architektur.mapolismagazin.com/sites/default/files/berlin-3.jpg)

[http://tfrisch.de/wp-
content/gallery/u55-berlin/HBF%20Berlin...](http://tfrisch.de/wp-
content/gallery/u55-berlin/HBF%20Berlin-11.jpg)

[http://www.e-architect.co.uk/images/jpgs/berlin/berlin_haupt...](http://www.e-architect.co.uk/images/jpgs/berlin/berlin_hauptbahnhof_aw050909_8.jpg)

[http://awesomeberlin.net/wp-
content/uploads/2016/08/hauptbah...](http://awesomeberlin.net/wp-
content/uploads/2016/08/hauptbahn.jpg)

~~~
bogomipz
The Berlin Hauptbahnhof is good looking with good functionality. I was there
recently and it looked like there was a new phase of construction starting,
its also visible in the aerial shot in on one of you links. Any idea what
those plans are?

~~~
detaro
new S-Bahn S21, connecting Hauptbahnhof to Gesundbrunnen (northern "center" of
the circle lines)

------
pavement
That the old Penn Station was destroyed in 1963, in favor of what stands today
really sounds like some kind of horrible urban planning debacle no one likes
to think about or talk about anymore. But New York was a different place back
then, or so I'm told.

Penn Station, the way it is now is just something you sort of shrug at, given
the way Midtown is, in general.

Everything on 8th Avenue from 23rd Street to 59th Street is seedy and weird,
but the creeps and transients really occupy a strip between 34th Street and
42nd Street.

I've always figured it was a legacy of The Old 42nd Street, from the 1970's.
That place ancient New Yorkers still talk about, from a time before
Giulliani's Disnified Times Square took root in the 90's, but honestly who
knows.

Somtimes I wonder, though, if that part of town would be different now, if
Madison Square Garden weren't there, and the original, grander Penn Station
had still remained. Throughout the 20th century many other parts of Manhattan
endured similar transformations, and even Grand Central went through a period
of neglect, but to compare Grand Central to Penn Station now, is like night
and day.

I figure there's something to that.

~~~
sotojuan
Midtown is a strange combination of seedy, dirty, weird, sketchy, and "cleaned
up" tourist destinations. It's busy, full of massage parlors and bad souvenir
stores, safe, and full of families on vacation. Probably my least favorite
part of Manhattan to work in.

~~~
rm999
Midtown West is like that.

Midtown East is much less touristy and includes great restaurants, a lot of
office buildings, and fairly residential parts (like Murray Hill). It also
includes Penn Station's foil - Grand Central (Grand Central was actually saved
because of the lessons learned from Penn Station).

~~~
potatolicious
Agree, I think that discounting Midtown entirely as a concrete bore lacks
enough nuance. There are certain parts of Midtown that are quite pleasant
(well, assuming you're cool with lots of people).

Each of the Avenues have their own character, it so happens that 7th Ave and
8th Ave tends to be seedy, under-utilized, deserted, and altogether
unpleasant.

Compare with, say, 5th Ave or 6th Ave, which even in its most tourist-trap-
laden spots are actually reasonably pleasant places to be.

Or like you said, further east. I don't really consider Murray Hill/Kips Bay
part of Midtown, but even Midtown East (42nd thru 59th) is rather nice and
suffers from few/none of the problems that plague 7th and 8th Ave.

I think much of the problem comes down to the under-development of the Far
West Side. The east side of Manhattan is extensively developed for commercial
and residential use all the way to the edge of the water. The west side on the
other hand continues to be a mix of light industry, auto shops, warehouses,
and general usage that discourages public traffic.

The development of Hudson Yards (the form of which I disagree with) will
hopefully alleviate some of this problem. As it is the area around Penn serves
no useful purpose for anyone besides commuters passing through. The
introduction of mass residential and commercial use should hopefully fix some
of this.

~~~
ghaff
In addition to Hudson Yards (which I don't really have an opinion on) and the
completion of the High Line's northern end, there's also been a fair bit of
other building and, I guess, gentrification in Hell's Kitchen generally. New
restaurants, hotels, etc. If I'm going to a show at the Javits and/or want to
otherwise be in the vicinity of midtown theaters, that's where I tend to stay
these days. It's convenient, has good access to reasonably priced restaurants,
and is close to many of the theaters and other Midtown attractions while being
outside of Times Square craziness/crush.

~~~
potatolicious
Yes, Hell's Kitchen is nowadays quite nice and it has an impact on the 7th/8th
Ave corridor. The stretch of 7th/8th adjacent to Hell's Kitchen is noticeably
nicer than the more southern stretches from 23rd thru 42nd. The lack of
development west of those areas is definitely a major issue.

My main beef with Hudson Yards is that it fails to follow the Manhattan grid,
and favors massive complexes with idyllic parks and public spaces between
buildings, rather than streets. This is the same fatally flawed planning that
has created innumerable empty concrete plazas around the country - that whole
area will be defined by the desertedness of its public spaces.

Ultimately the best public space are the streets were life and commerce
happens, not isolated courtyards between skyscrapers.

~~~
ghaff
>This is the same fatally flawed planning that has created innumerable empty
concrete plazas around the country - that whole area will be defined by the
desertedness of its public spaces.

I don't disagree with your general point. Boston has one of the worst examples
around City Hall (which the city is finally trying to do something about).
That said, probably because of its density, much of Manhattan doesn't seem to
suffer from empty pocket parks and plazas--at least in nicer weather--to the
degree that other cities may. I wonder if the High Line will also help with
respect to Hudson Yards specifically although I haven't really taken a close
look at the plans.

------
helloworld
Just a meta note about this article: I loved the swipeable before-and-after
graphics. They really helped me understand the proposed design in a way that
the words alone couldn't.

(BTW, I'm typing this from an Amtrak train bound for Penn Station, which has
long been my least favorite place in Manhattan!)

------
icehawk219
I like this idea as much as I like some of the others I've heard over the
years. I was a daily NJ Transit commuter for almost 8 years but am now down to
twice a week. Upgrades to Penn Station are as needed as are upgrades to the
rest of our nations infrastructure. But to me, therein lies the problem.
Infrastructure. Something our country seems hellbent on destroying through
neglect. I would _love_ to see one of these big "fix Penn Station" projects be
made into a reality and actually have the intended affect, but the cynical
part of me (which seems to grow a bit every birthday) simply can't be brought
to believe I'll see it happen anytime in the next couple decades.

To me Penn Station as it exists today is a prime example of how we've come to
treat our vital infrastructure.

On an average morning it takes 5+ minutes to get off the platform because it's
normal for two, or three, rush hour trains to be unloaded onto a single
platform back-to-back which results in thousands of people trying to squeeze
up four or five small staircases.

Looking around the platform the concrete is cracked, some of it creaks when
you walk over it, there are huge chunks of concrete missing everywhere. Lights
are constantly out, even when they're on its perpetually dark, everything is
covered in a layer of filth.

The rest is the same. Cracked walls and ceilings. Filth, trash, stink, and
overcrowding everywhere. Perpetually bad lighting. One good delay for any of
the transit systems that converge under Penn and it becomes impossible to move
as thousands of people stand around hoping for their train to arrive.

On the NJ Transit side track numbers aren't posted ahead of time. If you're
lucky you might get ~10 minutes notice but during rush hour it's normal for
tracks to be posted minutes before departure. So you get train fulls of people
rushing back and forth to make it to the few stairs or escalators (which are
usually going up even when trains down on the platform are boarding) to get to
their train on time.

And despite all this Penn Station is vitally important to the area. NJ and
NYC's economies benefit immeasurably from it. Even as far as Philadelphia, DC,
and Boston. Yet, there it rots and crumbles. For decades. And the best we can
do so far is hope for some more fancy computer renderings of something that
maybe could make things better. And while we wait delays become more frequent,
trains and stations get more crowded, things continue to fall apart, and the
costs continue to rise.

~~~
dluan
Seattle just completed a much needed light rail extension north to the UW, and
it's gorgeous. Construction only took three years, it works incredibly well,
and it's not some ugly building meant to hide from view. It ends up adding a
lot to the campus.

It's possible, but folks in NYC do seem more used to political inertia and
cynical resignation.

([http://www.washington.edu/news/2016/03/25/geology-and-art-
co...](http://www.washington.edu/news/2016/03/25/geology-and-art-connect-at-
uw-light-rail-station/))

------
rspeer
This proposal looks beautiful, but a minor point stuck out for me. Putting
large maps on the ceiling sounds like a terrible UX that will confuse people
more than orient them.

You'll end up with one axis that corresponds to actual directions in the real
world, while its perpendicular axis is exactly the opposite. If the "north"
and "south" ends of the map are actually to the north and south, for example,
east and west will be on the wrong sides.

If you put all four compass directions in their real-world locations, then the
entire map is mirrored when seen from below. Maybe this rat's-eye-view of New
York would be appropriate, but it would also be deeply unfamiliar and look
like an enormous mistake.

There's a really good convention for public maps that are standing up on a
sign (left and right correspond to what's to your left and right in the real
world, and up corresponds to what's ahead of you), and there's a completely
obvious convention for maps on the floor. There's no sensible convention for
ceiling maps.

~~~
RockyMcNuts
The Grand Central ceiling star map is reversed, maybe they should do the same
in homage
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Central_Terminal#Ceiling](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Central_Terminal#Ceiling)

~~~
rspeer
Huh. That just sounds like an unnecessary mistake, as a star map is the one
kind of map that makes perfect intuitive sense on the ceiling (and its
directionality is less intuitive on a piece of paper or a screen).

(I could have added that if anyone would understand why a ceiling map of NYC
should be mirrored, it would be people who are familiar with star maps or
people who play _Kerbal Space Program_.)

------
Steko
As someone who hasn't been to New York in decades my main interaction with
Penn Station has been the regular appearance of Amtrak's Kafkaesque Large
Station Boarding Procedures as a whipping horse in Matt Yglesias blog posts
[1, for example].Then I realized I hadn't seen one in awhile and maybe Amtrak
changed to normal train boarding at major stations.

[1] [http://www.vox.com/2014/3/31/5563600/everything-you-need-
to-...](http://www.vox.com/2014/3/31/5563600/everything-you-need-to-know-
about-boarding-an-amtrak-train)

~~~
ghaff
Nope. No change.

However, to Yglesias' post I'd add that, in all fairness, the underground
platforms at Penn are really too narrow to have people waiting for the train
on the platform and then heading into an assigned car as is common in Europe.
So whether or not they checked the ticket at the top of the escalator in Penn,
there would still be something of a crush as people went down to the platform
from the very congested boarding area.

(What is a reasonable question is why Amtrak doesn't actually have reserved
seating even on their "all reserved" trains like Acela.)

------
wodahs02
This is great. I took accela into Penn Station for 4 years from DC. I always
wish they could revitalize that whole area. They can do so much with it. Today
it's feels like a 3rd world train station.

------
jrockway
I am not sure why everyone cares so much about flash infrastructure. I go to
Penn Station to ride the train from time to time. It's fine. You can get a
coffee down there. You buy a ticket and get on your train. It's not a work of
art, it's not a beautiful space that inspires me to be excellent. But I don't
expect it to be, it's a train station. I go there to get on the train.

Trump was droning on about this during the debate, how our airports make us
look like a third-world country or something. I don't see why anyone cares.
I've taken numerous flights in and out of Laguardia. You show up there, go
through security, and get on an airplane. I am not looking for excitement or a
work of art. It's an airport. I want to be in and out as quickly as possible.

I only want two transportation-related improvements -- more service so I can
get a seat during the day and not wait around for 30 minutes at night, and
positive train control so that I don't die when someone forgets to stop at the
last station. Everything else is ego-driven money wasting. (I'm looking at
you, Andrew Cuomo.)

~~~
mancerayder
Read icehawk's comment below regarding infrastructure. It's not the lack of
works of art, architectural details, or coffee shops that's the issue. As an
occasional rider you don't know, but the station hasn't scaled its ridership
over the years. Coming up from the tracks or down to there, during rush hour
or even a typical weekend, is a slow nightmare. Frequently commuters coming up
and down colide and cause a deadlock, as there are no designated up and down
areas. The layout is old. The station is large and poorly organized. I was in
a very busy station with a bad rap in London a few weeks ago, called Victoria,
and while the British complain about everything this station handles multiple
commuter lines and several Tube lines with sophisticated aplomb. It's wide and
open, like I see the new Penn design is intended to be.

It's not an issue of beauty, it's an issue of efficiency and scale. The
infrastructure hasn't scaled.

~~~
Symbiote
I think it just proves your point: Victoria Underground Station is considered
overcrowded, and is being upgraded at the moment with the construction of
additional entrances.

It looks like everything new will be underground, so there's not so much room
for beauty. Unlike my memories of NYC, it will at least be very well lit and
kept clean.

[https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/improvements-and-
proje...](https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/improvements-and-
projects/victoria)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Victoria_station#Curren...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Victoria_station#Current_upgrade)

~~~
mancerayder
You make me jealous of my time in London.

My main complaints when I lived in London (in East-Central London, in E1W): a)
long east-west travel times b) no overnight Tube options c) (though less
important) no A/C on the Tube, are ALL being addressed.

It's depressing and sad that a city with three times the GDP (per the last
time I checked), NYC, my now-home, has a shoddy and corrupt, slow-moving
infrastructure upgrade plan. Every infrastructure plan costs smaller-country-
budget levels of spend, takes longer than expected, and after the ribbon is
cut is still behind its competition (because let's face it, international
cities compete) in Europe and Asia.

------
TYPE_FASTER
NYP is actually the perfect introduction to midtown and Manhattan in general.
There are a ton of people moving quickly to a destination in a confusing maze
of stuff that you can't find your way out of without asking somebody.

At least there's a Taco Bell.

~~~
yolesaber
> a confusing maze of stuff that you can't find your way out of

Manhattan above Houston St is basically a grid with an X/Y street / ave
system. It's really not that confusing nor a maze

------
chiph
I see similarities in this plan with the new Liege-Guillemins (Belgium) train
station. Light, airy, modern.

[https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2009/sep/16/liege-g...](https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2009/sep/16/liege-
guillemins-train-station)

[http://www.e-architect.co.uk/belgium/liege-guillemins-tgv-
st...](http://www.e-architect.co.uk/belgium/liege-guillemins-tgv-station)

------
yummyfajitas
Realistically, we shouldn't build anything big in NY. The costs are out of
control, insanely slow, and wildly unpredictable. No one even knows where the
money goes.

[https://pedestrianobservations.wordpress.com/2013/06/03/comp...](https://pedestrianobservations.wordpress.com/2013/06/03/comparative-
subway-construction-costs-revised/)

[https://pedestrianobservations.wordpress.com/2011/05/16/us-r...](https://pedestrianobservations.wordpress.com/2011/05/16/us-
rail-construction-costs/)

[http://www.wsj.com/article_email/mtas-costs-loom-
large-14688...](http://www.wsj.com/article_email/mtas-costs-loom-
large-1468803446-lMyQjAxMTE2OTE0ODAxODg5Wj)

What we should do is focus on a completing few small projects with time and
budget constraints comparable to the rest of the world (e.g. Spain, Hong Kong
or Delhi). This should be done with the goal of excluding all the current
people who are robbing us blind (i.e. no MTA workers); bring in French,
Japanese or Indian contractors as needed.

Once we can build and maintain a transit system at reasonable cost, then we
should think about big projects. Until then, why throw good money after bad?

------
hackuser
Every time I see more investment in Manhattan I wonder, would the money be
better spent in the other boroughs?

------
lstyls
Did anyone else notice the test string at the bottom of the article?

------
virgil_disgr4ce
I love this—but is there any interactivity? Does it go beyond the short canned
animation? I keep clicking everywhere but I guess that was it?

~~~
toxican
In case you didn't realize, scroll down. Lots of information and a few more
scroll-triggered animations.

