
Linux is the best shot at a granny proof OS in 2013 - Tsiolkovsky
http://readmystuff.wordpress.com/2013/09/16/linux-is-the-best-shot-at-a-granny-proof-os-in-2013/
======
Piskvorrr
Yes. I have multiple "granny users" using Linux (Ubuntu+derivatives of classic
Gnome), exactly the way author describes: Here's e-mail, here's web, here's
(video)chat, that's it.

No user-hostile distractions of the type "the computer has decided that it
WILL reboot NOW", no useless "everything is all right, update has been
installed" popups, no "oh look, a new flashdisk - guess what, the computer has
decided that it needs yet another product reactivation," no "new printer? lol
no, insert driver glork splurk mumbo jumbo" which I've come to know and loathe
in Windows.

Updates are completely under the hood, devices simply work when plugged in
(which shocks me to no end, after previous experiences with Linux and W8
driver issues), no crapware, no spyware.

~~~
pjmlp
Until you get that Ubuntu update that breaks the wireless driver.

For example, [https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-
manager/+b...](https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-
manager/+bug/995165)

~~~
Piskvorrr
I didn't quite say it was _perfect_, shit happens - and I've had my share of
systems hosed by buggy updates everywhere: be it Windows, Linux, Mac or BSD. I
still hold that in 2013, a modern Linux distro has _the fewest_ of such
problems.

Or, to put it differently, of my simplified boxes for basic users, Linux
generates the fewest trouble tickets.

~~~
spongle
I disagree. Ubuntu hosed our central devops MySQL completely on a 10.04 LTS
update...

As with everything in IT, YMMV.

~~~
Piskvorrr
To reiterate: I'm _not_ saying that Linux is the silver bullet, or problem-
free; just that switching _a specific set of users_ to Linux has, so far,
ensured the least problematic operation for them.

How does your anecdote fit into that, apart from "it both says Linux, so a
single user desktop and a MySQL server is totally the same situation"?

~~~
spongle
Well I'll bite on the whole anecdote thing.

My anecdote simply states that nothing is perfect and things do go wrong.

A more pertinent question is: is that less problematic as far as you are
concerned or as far as the users are concerned? Also are you fully sure that
you are qualified to judge this as a success based on the metrics you set out?
Perhaps things take them ten times longer but they are ignorant to that fact?

~~~
Piskvorrr
Ten times longer in the same Firefox, Skype, Libreoffice, Thunderbird combo
that they already had before? Not likely. (No, I'm not an UX expert, nor do I
play one on TV; but I have seen the users "in action" enough to make an
educated guess)

------
wzdd
I realise what is meant, but not only is the term "granny" both sexist and
ageist, it is also unnecessary. There is no useful distinction between a
"granny" and a "user" in this person's hierarchy. MOST people view computers
as tools to get things done and aren't interested in "exploring beyond that"
\-- or are we going to distinguish between "car drivers" and "granny car
drivers" as well, when talking about simplifying the interface?

~~~
marrs
More likely than being sexist or ageist, the author probably had his granny in
mind when he was trying to think of the label. I agree that it's not a very
good one though; it's too specific.

I don't really agree on your wider point, though. Car manufacturers do
absolutely distinguish between "car drivers" and "granny car drivers", and
also between "boy racers", "mums on the school run", and so on.

If you're going to manufacture a new car, you need to know who you want to
sell it to. The same should be true of computer platforms.

------
gamache
ChromeOS is a better choice for today's grannies on today's hardware.

Linux can be made that granny-proof. And that's what ChromeOS is. Hell, it's
so granny-proof that it doesn't ship with gcc, or even header files!

~~~
fauigerzigerk
Chromebooks don't support Skype.

~~~
gamache
Google Hangouts provides a lot of Skypeishness, for what that's worth.

------
jiggy2011
The biggest problem isn't ease of use as such, it's consistency.

If you set granny up with Windows and she has a problem, you know she can
probably find another grandson or nephew who at least knows how to google for
the solution, failing that it's probably easy to hire a cheap tech support
person to go to her house and fix it for her.

Once you set her up with a Linux distro , you're probably on the hook for that
thing for it's entire lifetime. Granted it's probably easier to find Linux
nerds now than it used to be but they're more likely to say "oh, this is
Ubuntu.. I only use Arch".

~~~
johnchristopher
That's not a problem because good boys and girls come visit their grandparents
more often than their linux computer need fixing.

~~~
jiggy2011
I'd be worried about the co-occurrence of me arranging to go out and get drunk
for the evening, granny wanting to watch an important episode of coronation
street on BBC iplayer and adobe releasing another broken flash update. "It was
very strange! They painted all the actors blue, I didn't like it!"

~~~
johnchristopher
You are in the IT/CS/computer field. Murphy's law is part of the deal :)

------
frank_boyd
What's stopping Grannies from adopting Linux is the fact that legislators
still seem to believe that it's not an abuse of monopolistic power by
Microsoft to force laptop manufacturers into forcing the consumer to pay for
an OS he doesn't need.

The EU's commission whose job it is to ensure healthy competition has been
sleeping on this since a few decades now. They should get some of that coffee.
It's really beyond me how MS is still allowed to operate like this. Why have
companies like Redhat, Canonical, etc. not filed a complaint with the EU yet?

~~~
poolpool
"pay for an OS he doesn't need."

Pay for an os HE? doesn't need. I know the hn community isn't exactly
sensitive to gender and age issues but come on. Why is the consumer he?
Especially when we are speaking about this mythical "granny."

~~~
theandrewbailey
This is one of the countless known bugs in the English language. You're
welcome to try to fix it (the core developers died centuries ago), but the
large userbase is unlikely to accept fixes.

------
bpatrianakos
This makes sense if you look at it through your own tech-centric lenses. It
seems plausible that Linux is good for a normal user when you try to put
yourself in their shoes but the problem is that you can't really do that
without bringing along your own knowledge and experience without realizing it.
Linux is not okay for the basic user described in this post but it can be
great for a lot of non techies.

"Grannies" don't like to deviate from the norm. The library has windows,
friends have windows, by this point in time a person has come into contact
with computers outside the home lots and they're almost always windows with an
occasional Mac. You put Ubuntu on Granny's machine and she'll be asking why
this doesn't look like what she saw elsewhere. Even if the function and UI are
eerily similar there's this weird mental block that stops people from seeing
the similarities and focus only on the differences.

The distribution described in this post is basically a Chromebook. Honestly,
if your "Granny" needs email, skype, and the web then get an iPad + keyboard
or a Chromebook. Not a full Linux install that you rip stuff out of. In fact,
people with these granny use cases are already flocking to tablets over
desktops in droves. A copy of Ubuntu "Gutsy Granny" as described here is
bending a desktop to work not like a desktop save for the mouse.

I'm annoyed with the 2 mainstream OSes like anyone else and I especially hate
having to troubleshoot problems that shouldn't come up for these Grannies but
as annoying as it is I think switching these people to Linux is partly us
trying to enlighten others (which comes off really condescendingly) and partly
trying to make our lives easier rather than the user's by putting the user in
the equivalent of a bubble where they can't break anything and if they do it's
very convenient for us to fix.

------
eliben
No. I don't think Linux (Ubuntu et al) is or will become so in the next 5
years (FWIW I use Linux both at home and at work).

But a Chromebook is - and I'm speaking with years of experience observing my
grandfather's use of a computer. Chromebooks are hard to screw up. You kill
one? Replace it and get all the settings back. No viruses. No antiviruses
(worse than viruses, usually). It just works. And the price is very low too.

------
coldtea
> _Linux is the best shot at a granny proof OS in 2013_

No, it's not. Been following the "dream" since 1998. Then it was "a matter of
1-2 years" to "be ready for the desktop", nay, to conquer it.

Since then, the same three responses always come up:

1) "Well, I already use it for MY desktop, so there". Doesn't matter, you are
an outlier. We're talking people at large here.

2) "Well, I installed it for my Dad and he goes along just fine". Sorry, a
non-user with a friend to install Linux for him (and perhaps admin it) not
representative of casual users.

3) Normal users are like "grannies" and "moms" (slightly sexist description
which they use to mean: they do very little stuff with their PCs, like browse
the web and check their email). Well, not really.

Some users are like that -- mainly older people. But most users are not, and
as they spend more time with their PCs they become even less so. They would at
some point want to: edit video from their compact camera, play a (specific,
popular) game, create a presentation and share it, etc etc. As soon as they
try a lot of those things, they find out that Linux doesn't cut it 100%.

~~~
snarfy
Step 2 definitely counts for something, because "grannies and moms" aren't
exactly buying bare bones PCs and installing Windows on them from scratch
either.

~~~
coldtea
Well, that's the old wives tale, but I've seen people like my dad (wholesale
merchant, never used a computer or cared about them until 55+) that has, in
the 3 years of buying one, reinstalled his Windows 2-3 times.

It's not that difficult. Insert DVD, next-next, done. With a Mac, perhaps,
it's even easier.

~~~
tluyben2
But did he install it on a barebone pc? Getting all the missing drivers etc?
This sounds like this was a factory installed PC with all drivers on the DVD
ready to go. That's not barebone exactly. Also the question is why he was
doing that; I haven't reinstalled anything (not Linux, not Mac) for many years
and I actually like screwing around with hardware and drivers?

~~~
spongle
It's actually pretty easy these days. I haven't seen a single machine since
about 2008 that doesn't work straight away off a vanilla windows cd.

occasionally you get a missing graphics driver but windows update just pulls a
WHQL driver.

As for recovery DVDs: these are the first point of call usually and are pretty
good generally.

there are many paths and they are all navigable by an average user.

~~~
tluyben2
Yeah ok, I didn't know that. I have the same experience with Linux these days,
but I'm not a good example. I know what hardware to buy and what distro's to
use in what cases. The last Windows install I personally did was Windows 7 on
a 2007 Acer and 2009 Toshiba and that was an incredibly horrible experience;
almost nothing worked out of the box and finding drivers was hard ('no drivers
found' was the message and on the vendor sites it said that it didn't have
drivers for Win7 yet; the drivers for XP half worked and half did not).
Needless to say this was not the DVD or partition I installed; I used a shiny
new Win7 USB.

I think though that although some people will reinstall their system (why?),
it should not be needed and that's where we are growing to with, on the low
end, tablets (mostly linux: android)/chromeos (linux)/windows laptops and on
the higher end macbooks. These machines get thrown out before a reinstall
would be needed by the less computer savvy (and even by the computer savvy who
earn too much :).

In the mac space people buy a new macbook / iPad when the new shiny upgrades
are announced (october?) and on the other end of the spectrum people abuse the
stuff OR it gets 'too slow' and replace it. In between is the high end Windows
market, which, so far, seems to be split between business users (which are
more and more going tablet), high end gaming and geeks. And those three all do
(or their company does) in fact reinstall / upgrade (hard and soft) their
systems. But that's very far from 'most users'.

------
indeyets
OS X works perfectly for grannies of my kid :)

the good thing is, that it is absolutely stable and requires close to zero
support from me (I do updates 2 times a year)

~~~
cygwin98
Don't know why you got downvoted. An old iMac has worked wonders for my
parents.

------
bunderbunder
No, the best [insert unfavorable stereotype here]-proof OS in 2013 is iOS.
Compared to iOS, Linux compares unfavorably on almost every factor:

\- For truly casual, non-savvy users the iPad is the ideal hardware platform.
It's small, it's unintimidating, it's inexpensive.

\- Touchscreens are great. They're the natural interface for a casual user. I
have a grandmother who became somewhat notorious for breaking LCDs in my
family. This was back in the early 2000s before touchscreens were remotely
common, but that interface mode still managed to stick in her head so firmly
that she never did develop an instinct for using the mouse.

\- For users this casual, a Linux setup depends critically on having a friend
or family member who's able and willing to set up and administer their
computer for them. Very few people have that.

\- By contrast, the biggest problem I've had to support with non-nerdy
friends/family and their iPads is, "I can't get this Send to Evernote
bookmarklet working in Safari." That's obviously coming from one of the less
intimidated ones.

\- The onscreen keyboard is generally fine because people this uncomfortable
with computers generally don't touch-type anyway. For those who do, a case
with a built-in keyboard is an easy solution.

Now I'll grant there are some political objections to iOS out there, and for
people to whom those political objections are important, Linux is less
problematic. To them I say, get over yourself. This isn't a computer for you.
This is a computer for people who neither know nor give a damn about the GNU
Manifesto.

Or if you think they really do want something that folds, a Chromebook
probably works too. Haven't had a chance to try one of those, honestly.

~~~
betterunix
"This isn't a computer for you. This is a computer for people who neither know
nor give a damn about the GNU Manifesto."

The point of the GNU manifesto is that nobody, not even people who are
hopelessly unable to manage their own computer, should be forced to give up
control of their computers. It is one thing to lack a working knowledge of
computers, but quite another to receive a computer that deliberately traps
you. Beyond that, the GNU manifesto is about _not_ dividing people into
special social classes like "programmers" and "end users;" everyone should
have the same rights over their computers, regardless of their ability to
exercise those rights on their own.

Some of us are not going to recommend computers that are designed to be
controlled by their manufacturers. I would rather deal with a million annoying
demands for computer help from my family members than to see their technical
ignorance taken advantage of by Apple or by anyone else.

Consider what you are saying in the context of free speech (not such a
stretch, considering the censorship of political apps in the Apple app store).
Would you say that free speech only matters for philosophers and political
commentators? Would you say that it is OK to curtail certain speech for
everyone else, because most people never say those things anyway? That is what
you are saying about computers: that the freedom to hack belongs only to
people who have the technical knowledge needed to do so.

~~~
bunderbunder
Yes. And for all that, if you present it as an argument for why people need to
be using a computer that's inscrutable to them, they'll dismiss you as a
hopeless ideologue at best. At worst, they'll get offended by your nerd
chauvinism.

"No you can't do as much with this system and are generally much more
dependent on others if you use it, but the point is that you _could_ be if you
did have the technical knowledge. Which you don't, but that's beside the
point!" might be a well-intentioned position, but it's horrendously
privileged. For someone to whom the abstract Freedom offered by free software
is, by any practical measure, inaccessible, the concrete freedom offered by
well-designed user-friendly products is vastly more valuable.

~~~
betterunix
I do not think you can say that the freedoms offered by Free software are
entirely inaccessible to even the most technically illiterate users. We
usually talk about things like the freedom to copy or study or modify
software, but the most basic freedom is the freedom to _use_ software (and by
extension, your computer) however you wish. That is not something Apple's
snappy interfaces deliver -- you are only free to use iOS for the things Apple
approves, and subverting that control (i.e. jailbreaking) is no less
intimidating than using a modern GNU/Linux distro.

My experience has been that deliberate restrictions on software use affect
non-technical people as much as they affect me:

"What does 'activation failed' mean?"

"Why can't I copy this DVD?"

"I want to record this TV show and then watch it on my tablet, how do I copy
it from my DVR?"

"My friend had that app, why can't I find it in the app store? How do I
install it?"

Dismissing the freedoms offered by Free software as abstract and inaccessible
ignores the reality of how people use their computers. Nobody is claiming that
someone who never touched a computer in their life is going to be hacking the
kernel, but it is not far-fetched to think that they might want to copy a
movie or that they might be angry if their books mysteriously disappear one
night. The snappy UI is little more than bait -- it is attractive to people
who are frustrated by more complicated systems, but hidden behind it is a
system that denies people the right to use their computers they way they want
to use their computers. In other words, what I said in my comment: an attempt
to take advantage of technical ignorance.

~~~
bunderbunder
How can you say that the freedom to use the software however you wish exists
for someone whose ability to use the software is contingent on them having an
acquaintance to set it up and then lock them into a sandbox so that they don't
break it?

Maybe in principle that freedom _could_ exist for the non-nerdy Linux user.
But in practice it simply doesn't.

Example: Retail Linux netbooks were an incredibly short-lived experiment.
Reason? Customers kept returning them because they were having so many _more_
of the kinds of issues you list than they did with even Windows computers.

~~~
betterunix
"How can you say that the freedom to use the software however you wish exists
for someone whose ability to use the software is contingent on them having an
acquaintance to set it up and then lock them into a sandbox so that they don't
break it?"

A sandbox that stops someone from breaking their computer is a lot different
from a sandbox that stops someone from installing software that a distant
corporation did not approve. It is not a sandbox that stops people from doing
things that make sense for them and that they do understand, like copying a
movie from a DVD to their tablet.

In other words, it is a stretch to even call it a "sandbox." It is not any
different than what I do for _my own user account_ on _my own computer_.

"Maybe in principle that freedom could exist for the non-nerdy Linux user. But
in practice it simply doesn't."

Again, my experience differs. I have found that non-technical people are
somewhat intimidated by complicated UIs, but that they become much more
frustrated by simple UIs that tell them they are not allowed to do what they
are trying to do, especially when they are trying to do something that seems
simple and obvious. When my mother inserted a DVD into her computer and said,
"Why can't I just copy this the way I copy files from a thumb drive?" was she
not complaining about her lack of freedom? Do you really think it would be
better for her to have a snappier UI, but to lack that freedom?

I have also found that non-technical people are more constrained by the fact
that they do not realize what their computer can do than by the UI, regardless
of what OS they are using. Of course my mother did not turn her desktop into a
DVR on her own -- the idea that it was possible to do so never even occurred
to her. Now that she has that set up, it has become something she relies on.
The UI may be ugly (even by "geek standards"), but do you really think she
would be better off paying a monthly fee to use some locked-down DVR that does
not even let her copy her recordings to her tablet, or that only allows her to
record certain shows?

(Yes, I like to use my mom as an example. Yes, I know she might be an
exceptional case; however, other non-technical users I have interacted with
seem to react similarly to these things, so I suspect this is not so
uncommon.)

I think you are not giving people enough credit. Example: the outrage when
Amazon deleted books from Kindles. People were complaining about the violation
of a freedom they simply took for granted, a freedom they never realized they
had given up when they purchased a Kindle, a freedom that had nothing to do
with the UI.

------
gum_ina_package
Yes, yes, this is all fine and dandy until your linux distro updates and
something causes the wifi drivers to crash or simply not work anymore. I think
the OP wanted to have his granny just use an iPad or tablet of some kind where
it's literally impossible to screw something up.

~~~
betterunix
That sort of thing is the reason I switched from Fedora to ScientificLinux
(i.e. RHEL). That switch happened years ago and I have yet to see anything
critical break (in fact, I cannot think of anything beyond very obscure,
configuration-specific breakage that is beyond what you would see for end user
setups).

Why give your grandparents a toy someone else owns and controls when you could
give them the real thing?

------
Schiphol
I've seen the kind of user ranking proposed in this article many times (from
clueless users on to power users on to developers and elite hackers). The
assumption being that those up the ranking have an all-around better command
of computers than those down.

But it seems to me that a developer need not be a power user. It doesn't seem
far fetched that one might be competent in (say) python while ignoring most of
the innards of a unix-like system (modulo the part that she actually uses in
her programming). Being able to code doesn't automagically turn you into an
expert in, say, systemd service files.

~~~
hobs
In my experience some devs are power users, but many business devs are writers
of code, they don't know dick about anything outside of their purview, and
frankly, they don't care.

------
mikeryan
If by Granny proof OS you mean a kiosk with 3 apps.

~~~
th0br0
But most people don't need anything else! I'd even go as far as saying that
ChromeOS is a better "granny OS" than your stock Ubuntu...

~~~
mikeryan
Look I may have been snide but I totally reject the entire premise that a
"Granny proof" OS is a terminal locked down to three main apps. Heck the whole
article goes through pains to say "Granny isn't stupid" but they only need a
browser. I mean at this point why give them skype and email when they can use
webmail and Skype via a browser? (requires Outlook.com so your mail is there
to)

Granny proof to me is an OS where my granny can easily install their damn
solitaire or scrabble games without too much hassle. They can get around to
their downloaded images, create a gallery and maybe edit a Word Doc or excel
spreadsheet. Its not some mythical strawman dummy user who really just needs
an iPad. Right now an iPad is more powerful and usable device for a less tech
savvy user then this stripped down - non-existant Linux distro.

------
tux1968
We're not too far from a time when every Granny grew up in a highly technical
age where basic digital competency is as assured as knowing how to tie
shoelaces. Hopefully then we can stop the over emphasis on providing systems
for the least technically capable.

~~~
ledge
Systems can be intuitive and novice-friendly without limiting the capabilities
of technical users.

Also don't count on basic digital competency anytime soon worldwide. Where I
live, young and old alike stare blankly into computer screens with no clue
what's happening. Two days ago I unsuccessfully tried to explain to a 25 year
old woman what a website is.

There are so many emerging markets for computers that intuitive UIs will be
crucial for a long time to come. I'm glad for that, since the ease of opening
my web browser or music player has never once prevented me from using command
line tools, editing system/configuration files, etc.

