
Fiat will effectively fund Tesla’s German factory - ryzvonusef
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-09/fiat-will-effectively-fund-tesla-s-german-factory-baird-says
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dsalzman
“Fiat Chrysler is going to launch a new version of its Fiat 500 battery-
powered vehicle in Europe this year, along with plug-in hybrid versions of its
Jeep Compass, Renegade and Wrangler models. That, combined with the Tesla
credits, should make the company compliant with Europe’s emissions rules, CEO
Mike Manley told analysts in July.

While Fiat Chrysler would otherwise struggle to meet new carbon-dioxide
emissions standards in Europe, the so-called open-pool option available in the
European Union allows automakers to group their fleets together to meet
targets.“ Fiat is paying Tesla for emission credits to meet EU regulations.

~~~
new_realist
Tesla is a compliance car manufacturer for-hire. If they were serious about
the planet (and their own mission statement) they would cease this dirty
practice.

~~~
HeavenFox
Why? Sounds like the law is working as intended: subsidizing electric car with
ICE car profits

~~~
new_realist
It undoes all the good from buying their cars. For every Tesla I buy, someone
else gets to pollute more. It’s legal, but it’s immoral.

~~~
lern_too_spel
It's the opposite. For every Fiat that is purchased, Teslas become cheaper.
Purchasing a Tesla does not make a Fiat cheaper.

~~~
new_realist
My interest is greenhouse gas emissions, not in wealth transfer shell games.

If Tesla did not sell the right to pollute to the highest bidder, produced
Teslas would reduce greenhouse gas emissions. But they do, so every Tesla sold
results in a mirror SUV created. Buying a Tesla does not help with climate
change. I might as well buy the SUV and let some sucker on the other side of
the trade deal with the premium prices, charging hassle, and range anxiety
that comes with EV ownership.

What good is a marginally cheaper Tesla if, at the end of day, it doesn’t
reduce pollution one bit?

~~~
lern_too_spel
If Tesla did not sell the right to pollute to the highest bidder, it wouldn't
be able to fund itself. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how carbon
permit equivalent systems work. Each year, the number of permits decreases and
the price of polluting goes up. If you immediately drop the number of permits
to zero, the production infrastructure won't be in place.

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KingMachiavelli
[https://web.archive.org/web/20200110194339/https://www.bloom...](https://web.archive.org/web/20200110194339/https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-09/fiat-
will-effectively-fund-tesla-s-german-factory-baird-says)

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hogFeast
One thing that pretty much everyone underestimated here is exactly how good
Musk is at finding other people to pay for stuff.

The loans from the Chinese govt...insane...he found literally the only people
on earth (perhaps aside from German bankers, although they have lost too much
money to carry on for now) that will light fire to huge stacks of cash with no
hesitation.

Fiat are shrewd but he clearly had them up against a wall here. Genius.

I would still much rather take my money down to the track rather than invest
with Musk but it is genuinely difficult to think of another CEO with as much
capital markets hustle.

~~~
etaioinshrdlu
Musk seems to be really really good at working his customers, suppliers,
governments, financiers, media, and public. In addition to having rather
spectacular engineering sense. It's like a perfect storm for being a business
magnet.

~~~
seieste
I think you mean magnate; a magnet goes on your refrigerator.

~~~
etaioinshrdlu
[https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1037976743963840512?lang...](https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1037976743963840512?lang=en)

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mprev
Fiat have made mostly terrible cars and could have done what Tesla did but
chose not to.

My concern, though, is that Fiat get to continue making mostly terrible ICE
cars thanks to what feels like green washing.

~~~
LoSboccacc
fiat has marvelous compacts. the fire engine derivatives just run forever, the
diesel made school twenty years ago and have an edge still today.

they have no clue on full size cars, and still pay for the socialized handling
the Italian car sector was subject into the nineties, but below management
they still have good tech and when they put their eggs into the right basket,
the output is just phenomenal.

and the Alfa tonale was a thing from unsuspecting times.

~~~
inferiorhuman
_fiat has marvelous compacts. the fire engine derivatives just run forever,
the diesel made school twenty years ago and have an edge still today._

Whatever FIAT is importing for the US market hasn't been particularly
reliable.

 _they still have good tech and when they put their eggs into the right
basket, the output is just phenomenal._

Speaking of, the one thing that surprised me with the 500 was how primitive
its bluetooth support was. I think it will only sync contacts with a phone
(playing audio is just not in the cards).

~~~
jimmux
My 500 has been great, but I always hear horror stories about the 500 in the
US. I believe they have assembly in Mexico, which I assume is for the North
American market. They are also built in Poland(?) if memory serves, so it may
be that I have a European vehicle here.

And yes, bluetooth is weirdly primitive. I prefer aux anyway, so no big deal.

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rapsey
EU laws forcing an EU car maker to fund their (foreign) competition. Classic
foot gun moment as a result of over regulation.

~~~
avianlyric
Not sure how this is an example of over regulation.

Regulations goal is to reduce CO2 output. If a private company want to achieve
that by funding a foreign electric car company to create a reduced total
footprint, that’s their choice.

Ultimately the regulation achieves its goal, reducing CO2. That fact it’s done
by increasing competition in the automotive industry can only be seen as an
extra win.

~~~
rapsey
> Regulations goal is to reduce CO2 output.

Maybe that regulation is stupid and it causes the wrong incentives? If you
wanted more electric cars, there are plenty of ways of making them more
appealing thus creating a market for them. Like improving charging
infrastructure.

Putting a gun to the head of one if not the largest manufacturing industry on
the continent is pretty stupid way of doing so.

> That fact it’s done by increasing competition in the automotive industry can
> only be seen as an extra win.

Yeah great, us europeans will all be thrilled by the increased foreign
competition and dead local manufacturers who have EU regulation burdens and
foreigners who don't.

~~~
avianlyric
The goal is to reduce CO2, not create more electric cars. That’s just one
possible solution.

Additionally have you seen how small Tesla is compared to someone like VW?
They’re easily an order of magnitude smaller.

Finally if Tesla are building _in the EU_ then they’re contributing to the EU
manufacturing industry, and they’re beholden to EU regulation.

~~~
rapsey
> The goal is to reduce CO2, not create more electric cars. That’s just one
> possible solution.

Well shooting yourself in the foot is a pretty bad way to achieve those goals.

> Additionally have you seen how small Tesla is compared to someone like VW?
> They’re easily an order of magnitude smaller.

A US company benefiting from much looser regulation at home and most of all
the insane FED money printing making its way to the stock market and funding
them with free money.

> Finally if Tesla are building in the EU then they’re contributing to the EU
> manufacturing industry, and they’re beholden to EU regulation.

So we can all be factory workers for americans. Great.

~~~
avianlyric
> Well shooting yourself in the foot is a pretty bad way to achieve those
> goals.

You’re going to have to explain why this is shooting ourselves in the foot.
I’m still not seeing it.

> A US company benefiting from much looser regulation at home and most of all
> the insane FED money printing making its way to the stock market and funding
> them with free money.

I’m not entirely sure I understand what your trying to say. Which regulations
are so much looser and can you explain what advantages they provide to Tesla
vs an EU company.

> So we can all be factory workers for americans. Great.

EU companies own factories in the US (VW is a notable example), and US
companies own factories in the EU. Nothing wrong with that.

