
Free-range parenting outside the US - GolDDranks
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/02/reader-center/free-range-parenting-outside-united-states.html
======
ericdykstra
It's easy to tell people to "chill" when you live in a high trust society like
Tokyo (where I've called home for over 3 years; I can't speak for the other
cities mentioned).

I've not once feared for my own safety. Children as young as ~5 or 6 walk on
my street alone or in small groups regularly, and they, likewise, have no
reason to fear. There's even a culture of teaching your kid at a very young
age to do things on their own. A regular TV show documents it (link with
English sub:
[https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4lme5a](https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4lme5a)).

I spent 3 and a half years in San Francisco, and the difference is stark.
People riding the bus grab their phones hard with one hand while using it with
the other, for fear of it being stolen (as happened to a friend of mine). You
would never leave your phone on a table while going to the bathroom unless you
were with someone to watch it. If you lost your wallet, you'd be lucky if you
got your driver's license back in the mail.

Are American parents overbearing as a group? Likely. But it's easy to
criticize from afar if you've never lived in a low-trust society.

~~~
tluyben2
I agree with you but then again the US is a massive country; it cannot be the
same all over. So something gives the parents the idea they need to be
(over?)protective or we just do not hear from the regions where that is not
needed because it is not newsworthy?

~~~
alkonaut
I suspect there are places where you wouldn’t and shouldn’t leave your 5yo
alone in the playground a short walk from home. And I assume that the culture
will spread within a country (shared news etc) so that people in areas where
this would be perfectly safe don’t do that either. I’m not sure what to do
about that their than encourage people to make their own judgements and also
see the cost of overprotecting. I think that’s a key here: parents think that
watching over kids is invariably best, and don’t assign a value to
independence.

~~~
tluyben2
> suspect there are places where you wouldn’t and shouldn’t leave your 5yo
> alone in the playground a short walk from home.

You have that almost everywhere; sometimes depending, unfortunately, on color
of skin or social standing. But I am just surprised because of the size of the
US; in the Netherlands, which is miniscule, ‘people in the south’ think
Amsterdam and Rotterdam are Sodom and Gomorrah which is mostly not true. I
thought it was because it is such a small country that people would have such
ideas about cities which are basically less than 2 hours drive from them, but
then you see this in massive countries too. The tabloid press seems to do a
lot of harm really.

------
doppel
In Denmark, and probably elsewhere, we have the term "helicopter parents" for
parents who constantly hover near their kids, never letting them out of sight.
Similarly, we also have the term "curling parents", because they do everything
to clear the path of their offspring (to the point of going to job interviews
with them).

Both are obviously used in a teasing-not-quite-nice way to signal that maybe
these parents should take a deep breath and assume that they raised their kids
well, and that scraping your knee or getting frightened is something that
happens in life sooner or later, and the parents' job is to guide and comfort
their kids when they do happen.

There was a very high profile case (in DK at least) from 1997 about a mother
who left her child outside the restaurant where she was eating (with line-of-
sight to the stroller): [https://www.theguardian.com/us-
news/2017/nov/26/anette-soren...](https://www.theguardian.com/us-
news/2017/nov/26/anette-sorenson-denmark-new-york-baby-left-outside)

I might not want to do the same in New York, but in Denmark no one would bat
an eye if this happened.

~~~
duiker101
I recently visited a friend in Copenhagen and when I got to his place, a condo
on the third floor, he mentioned that his kid was outside sleeping. I thought
that he mentioned on the balcony and I thought "weird but ok". About half an
hour later we left and I learnt that the kid wasn't on the balcony bit out, in
the common garden of the building, where anyone could have just came in
because the main gate was simply always wide open... I am not a parent yet and
I don't want to be an helicopter parent, but that still kind of shocked me.
Can't decide if in a good or bad way.

~~~
Sharlin
That’s how it works in a high-trust society. The idea that someone would just
waltz into a courtyard and snatch a baby is just preposterous.

~~~
yomly
Tony Judt outlines some observations on the dynamics between social trust and
cultural homogeneity in "Ill Fares the Land".

I guess the differences between America and Denmark are one manifestation of
these differences

------
dstick
The single best thing you can give your kid is the confidence to face the
world alone.

Consequently, its one of the few things you can exert a modicum of control
over as well ;-)

Let them burn their fingers, let them fall, let them do stupid shit and just
be there to advise, help and guide them in a loving matter after the fact so
they can learn and grow to become a confident, decent adult.

------
neverminder
I walked to school 3 kilometeres one way since the first grade (6 years old).
Nowadays I've seen kids of the same age who can't even tie their shoes. It is
even more concerning considering authorities are actually reinforcing this.
The world did not become more violent or dangerous, but somehow people became
more scared and paranoid.

~~~
tonyedgecombe
The one thing that has got much worse is traffic, there are many more cars on
the roads and they tend to be much bigger. I liked to let my kids road around
when they were young but playing with the traffic didn't seem like a good
idea.

~~~
avar

        > The one thing that has got much worse is traffic
    

Where has traffic gotten much worse? E.g. here's the US statistics on traffic
deaths since the 1920s:

[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/US_traff...](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/US_traffic_deaths_per_VMT%2C_VMT%2C_per_capita%2C_and_total_annual_deaths.png)

In terms of absolute numbers traffic deaths today are at the same level as the
1950s, but as the chart also shows the population has more than doubled.
Statistics in any developed western country are likely to look the same.

Traffic deaths per million people are down to the levels of the 1920s, where
there were much fewer cars, and the 1920s are a period where it would have
been typical to kick your kids out at sunrise and expect them to be back
before sundown.

We live in the safest period in human history, parents are just being
paranoid.

~~~
tonyedgecombe
Vehicle miles travelled has gone through the roof in that time, look at the
blue line on your chart.

 _parents are just being paranoid_

Or perhaps they are behaving rationally given the amount of traffic on the
roads, those figures might have been worse otherwise.

~~~
avar
Distance traveled has gone through the roof, but at the same time deaths per
million people has been going down. Clearly "the amount of traffic on the
roads" isn't a rational indicator for how paranoid you should be about
traffic.

~~~
tonyedgecombe
No it isn't clear, the obvious answer is parents reacted to a risk and in
doing so kept their children safe.

------
intothemild
I’m Australian and my wife Norwegian. Norwegians are very very relaxed with
their kids, and so are Australians for the most part...

That said my wife, left unchecked, is a helicopter parent... it’s inherited by
her mother who is the most anxious person I’ve ever met, my sister in law is
also as anxious. So I always have to try and help my wife relax and have less
anxiety with our daughter.

One thing is when our daughter falls over... my wife and her side of the
family’s reaction is to run over and repeat in Norwegian “you poor thing” or
something to it’s like. Where as my side of the family.. we almost celebrate
falling over, we treat it like a positive. “Ohh come on get up” said in a very
positive tone. Then we clap our hands and say “yay” when my daughter gets up.

The difference, my daughter almost never cries when she falls over. If she
really hurts herself of course we will go to her, I’m not a monster... but
other kids could fall over and scream for an hour over the smallest of falls.
Why? Because their parents run to them and try to wrap them in cotton wool.

My point with all this, is parenting styles from what I’ve witnessed isn’t
really based on nationality.. but more the cultural norms, and how you were
brought up.

I have read that the great generation, had a very very hands off parental
approach. The boomers had a more hands on approach, and then gen X and gen Y
seem for the more part to have a much more hands on approach than their
parents.

I’m gen Y, my wife gen X.

I think there’s a lot more factors involved here than just nationality.

~~~
andreshb
Reaction to a child falling across cultures is so interesting in its
differences. In a lot of countries in Latin America, when a toddler falls, all
adults look away, to pretend as if we did not notice the child fell. The logic
goes that if the child has an audience, they will cry, otherwise, they will
just dust it off and keep playing.

~~~
intothemild
I've had other parents explain to me that if you run to your child and make a
huge fuss, that they will react as such. So in future if they fall and don't
hurt themselves, they will cry.

I don't know what the efficacy of this is, but it doesn't hurt to try.

------
radicalbyte
As a father from The Netherlands, I can tell you that no parent would let
their 5 year old have a birthday party unsupervised by adults. If they did
then you expect social services to get involved.

What actually happens is that the HOST PARENTS supervise the group. So if your
kids are invited to a friend's birthday party then yeah, you don't stay. I
assume that it's the same in the US and pretty much every other country.

We also don't leave our four-year-old kids in the car alone. Well, some people
do, which is why the local newspapers have been full of stories about the
parents getting arrested for it and social services getting involved.

~~~
fs111
> I assume that it's the same in the US and pretty much every other country.

No, in the US all parents are expected to stay. Not just the host parents.

~~~
thomasfedb
Please tell me this is a joke. A birthday party (in Australia) is an
invitation for you to dump your kids for 3 hours. How do the kids have any fun
with so many adults around?

~~~
fs111
no, that is not a joke

------
charmides
_I have three kids. I’ve left them home alone since the age of 7 to drop off
dry cleaning, grab a coffee or pick up milk at the local store. My only
requests were no cooking, fighting or using the iron. Read, play or clean your
room. Never a problem. And if one goes missing I still have two left._

This made me laugh.

~~~
rb808
Me too - I wonder if that is actually an important cause though. 100 years ago
people regularly had 4-8 children and expected some to die. Now its common to
have 1-2, so its both more life altering to lose one, and easier to track
them.

------
alkonaut
I stuck around for my kids friends birthday parties when he was 2-3 and didn’t
want me to leave. Once I could leave him there without him crying (or even
noticing), of course I got the hell out of there. Being in a room full of 5
year olds isn’t really my idea of a great Saturday. The parents hosting the
party do the suffering, those are the rules.

------
baxtr
As a parent in Germany I can say that there is a trend towards the American
model. People watch their kids more closely on the playgrounds (helicopters
parents), bring their kids to school by car. The latter has spark a lot of
discussion here because roads around schools get blocked a lot and school
principals are annoyed.

~~~
_ph_
And ironically, the biggest danger to children on their way to school is all
the cars around the school...

~~~
r00fus
I'd say it's not ironic at all. It's part and parcel of auto dominated
society.

~~~
SmellyGeekBoy
It's ironic in that by trying to create a safer environment for their kids
they're actually creating a more dangerous one.

------
a-saleh
T.b.h. as a young parent with a 4yo daughter, I am kinda affraid to give her
more free reign. Currently, I am fine with she doing whatever if a) I know
where she is

b) I know there is at least some obstacle between her and the traffic.

c) if she hurts herself, I would know, and could get to her in 3 minutes

So I am fine with her being inside of a 100x100 m playground mostly
unsupervised, as long as I know it is fenced and I have at least some idea
where she is.

So my question would be this. Today, I wouldn't let my 4yo kid cross the road
without adult supervision. In 15 years she will probably be in college
somewhere, having to pay her own rent. How do you handle the progression?

I.e. I remember that from the school when I was 11 years old was a Big Deal™
.. but by the time I was 14, taking bikes with my friend and disappearing for
half a day was normal.

~~~
ck425
Why the concern about fences?

I remember being taught to cross roads both at school and by my dad aged 4ish.
IIRC they would teach you first, then they would start to ask me 'how do we
going to cross then?' and make me lead the way. I had to stop, look both ways
to check for traffic, then walk not run. And I had to talk out each step to my
dad. After a few months he trusted me to not talk it out but if I missed a
step, say not looking right, he'd point it out and make me do it again. Then a
while later he let me cross roads myself but would watch. For example let me
go to the park but watch from the front door. By 7/8 I was trusted to go to
the supermarket and shop alone via some occasionally busy roads - the only
really busy road had a lollipop lady to help you cross.

So yeah, make sure they know what they are doing. Make them prove it to you.
Then give them a bit more freedom step by step.

------
kasey_junk
I’ll note that helicopter parenting in America is very much an affluence
thing.

In poorer parts of the country kids spend lots of time, from a young age,
unsupervised. Because their parents and care givers don’t have a choice.

------
ck425
I wonder how much urbanisation plays into this. If your city is designed
entirely around cars there's far less opportunity for kids to go out
themselves.

I've always lived in a walkable places (ie in the UK) and growing up was told
to walk everywhere. From a young age (maybe 8?) I could walk faster than my
mum so she let me power off on my own to school. Naturally I became very
independent.

But if there are no sidewalks, if your town is car centric and drivers have no
regard for pedestrians? How in those places do you create opportunities for
independence?

------
asimpletune
I grew up in the US but my parents are both Italian. They pretty let me run
around unsupervised, and it was wonderful. I remember though my mom receiving
a lot of flak for that however.

------
runarb
There was an interesting map posted here a while back on how children lost the
right to roam. In 1919 the grandfather could walk 6 miles to go fishing but
today the son is only allowed to walk in the street where the family live:
[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-462091/How-
children-...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-462091/How-children-
lost-right-roam-generations.html)

~~~
kasey_junk
That’s largely an outcome of additional cars/lack of green space not a
parenting mindset change.

------
naveen99
Didn’t France just ban phones in school.

I wish the legal age would be lowered to 12 or 14. At least then kids could be
given more financial and contractual independence. Children can’t participate
in movie pass, take Uber...

I wouldn’t attend most meetings / talks where they refused to let me in
without my phone. I don’t know how we let kids suffer through the humiliation.

------
spicyusername
American child and parent here, can report that American is a large and varied
place. In my experience most children and parents here behave appropriately
and American child raising is not some dystopian nightmare as these articles
would have you believe.

The kids will be alright.

------
chrisan
> Some have called the police or child protective services after witnessing a
> parent leave a child in a car to run into Starbucks or attend a job
> interview.

I get what the gist of the article is about however isn't this a real risk?

Maybe in the other countries they leave the windows down but in America
windows are up for security fears?

[http://noheatstroke.org/](http://noheatstroke.org/) (hopefully not a
sensationalist website, just first thing that came up in google that seems to
have numbers)

edit: For the down voters I'm talking about the job interview, not 5min to go
get a coffee. It just seemed like a bad example to prove the articles point

Plus it was just a question...

~~~
alkonaut
Leaving a child in a car for a long time is a bad idea everywhere. It’s fine
to do if you have to pop into a store and the child is old enough to
understand (and it isn’t hot and sunny, and/or the child can handle the door
on their own). But for a job interview??

------
jimjimjim
cue the people needing to chill.

~~~
Hnrobert42
Exactly. People raise their children differently in different places. There
are plusses and minuses. Who cares?

My frustration with tjis article is that it is tge epitome of anecdotal fluff.
It is an article about the commebts on an article. Why is this tripe on hacker
news?

~~~
mcphage
What are the pluses about how we raise our kids in the US? I’m not really
seeing any.

------
joaomacp
I live in Portugal, right next to a school from 5th to 9th grade (10-15 year
old kids).

In the morning, you can see parents and grandparents outside the school fences
watching the inside like it was some zoo! It's painful to watch. I went to
that school and I know I would HATE it if my parents did it, and I live right
next to it!

It's explainable if it's the kids first day of school, but you see this year
round. I think this is happening more frequently, I don't remember seeing it
as much some years ago.

I believe the cause is the same as in America: the news on TV focuses only on
the crime and scandal, increasing the perception of danger, when it's actually
decreasing.

~~~
Markoff
but do they stay there watching all day? what would be point stay and watch
for few minutes or even hour? don't these people need to go to work? maybe
they just enjoy seeing child happy with classmates?

------
xienze
> Some have called the police or child protective services after witnessing a
> parent leave a child in a car to run into Starbucks or attend a job
> interview.

Not sure why they included this little nugget in the article. Letting your
child roam free is just a little bit different than locking them in a car and
possibly forgetting about them. Parents absolutely need to make arrangements
such that this situation can be avoided, and I can’t fault anyone who calls
the police if they see a child left unattended in a car. They don’t know how
long they’ve been in there or will be in there.

~~~
avar
The article isn't talking about parents leaving infants in their cars, one
example cited is a younger kid being left in a car with their 10 year old
sibling. If you're passing buy and concerned about those kids, it's going to
be pretty easy to see if they're doing fine.

Much of the article is also discussing countries where the predominant weather
is such that even if you left an infant in a car for 3 hours to sleep without
AC they'd be fine. Sweden isn't Los Angeles.

------
theBadOldDays

      High Trust Society
    

I love the snobby ring to that term. Very elitist.

I grew up around dirtbag kids, scummy weirdos, freaks and fuck ups, during an
era and in a zone where people are still uncertain about what the effects from
lead poisoning were, immediately prior to my childhood.

I have older siblings with... stories.

I look around now, and I have to admit, the world does not seem to be strewn
with the human wreckage that existed prior to the crack epidemic that emerged
in the 1980's, but I do remember what people were like back then.

I really think leaded gasoline, coupled with alcoholism, drunk driving and
many other drugs, ripped the banality of the 1950's to shreds, and scared the
hell out of a lot of people, who still remember what that looked like.

The world was not "safe" or anything that looked like it. People were scary.

I'm not going to go into details, because HN winces to think of such things,
but really, I could paint vivid pictures of the fears people have.

I'll say this much, illicit gambling was rampant and normal in dens of vice,
rendered an impenetrable haze of cigarette smoke that hung four feet off the
ceiling, right down to the tops of the door jams. That gambling atmosphere was
pervasive. Everyone just felt like the abandon of wagering it all, any old
time was normal. Such was the case with so many freaks on the loose.

Things aren't like that now. But it's not as far away as anyone would love to
claim.

Helicopter parents seem uptight, and relative to the world as it has been for
but a pair of decades or less, they are. But a lot can happen in a single
generation.

We'll see how things go.

