
How to Understand Systems - neilkakkar
https://neilkakkar.com/understanding-systems.html
======
ismail
I Have been learning about various systems theories over the last two years
and it is a massive field.

Starting of with a general theory of systems all the way to the present. The
practical use cases are immense. Complex adaptive systems is just one of the
many perspectives.

Reading the post it seems the assumption is “the system” can be controlled
with the “requisite variety”. This is very much a hard systems stance. Useful
when people are not involved, and to keep variables within an acceptable
range.

The soft systems perspective is very different, rather than viewing the system
as out there in the world it begins with the assumption that the system is
actually a construction in our heads.

With different people operating from different mental models of the system.
Differences and tensions stem from this.

Rather than being a negative this diversity is actually a positive as one can
see a More holistic picture of “the system”, the tensions between perspectives
on the system are opportunities for creativity and innovation.

Put another way. In the soft systems view, the system is actually the process
of inquiry. The inquiry process defines the system in our minds. Thus, it is a
process of learning that is recursive.

~~~
agumonkey
Care to share a reading list ? I only have von bertalanffy GST primer.

~~~
ismail
It would depend in what scenario you wanted to apply the concepts. I find that
the best ROT (return on time) can be had by reading research papers. You need
to have an understanding of the terminology or be prepared to slog through it.
There are some books that have very useful information.

Below are some of the resources i have been using/used:

A brilliant introduction to systems thinking by John Sterman who is a legend
in the field.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnTwZVviXyY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnTwZVviXyY)

Limits to Growth by Donella Meadows is a classic and a great introduction to
some of the concepts.

[https://www.amazon.com/Limits-Growth-Donella-H-
Meadows/dp/19...](https://www.amazon.com/Limits-Growth-Donella-H-
Meadows/dp/193149858X)

My review:

[https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/2231577740](https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/2231577740)

Books focused on Application of the theory, with various approaches to systems
thinking that can be applied to solve challenges. There is some overlap
between the two books below as they both have a catalogue of methods. They are
categorized differently. I would read the introductory chapters of both of
these and then review the chapter layout and see which of the two i prefer.

Systems Thinking: Creative Holism for Managers by Michael C. Jackson

[https://www.amazon.com/Systems-Thinking-Creative-Holism-
Mana...](https://www.amazon.com/Systems-Thinking-Creative-Holism-Managers-
dp-0470845228/dp/0470845228/)

And

Systems Concepts In Action by Bob Williams and Richard Hummelbrunner

[https://www.amazon.com/Systems-Concepts-Action-
Practitioners...](https://www.amazon.com/Systems-Concepts-Action-
Practitioners-Toolkit-ebook/dp/B005HG5430/)

Research Papers/Book Extracts:

A Definition of Systems Thinking: A Systems Approach by Ross D. Arnold, Jon P.
Wade

Soft systems methodology: a thirty year retrospective by Peter Checkland

Guidelines for Drawing Causal Loop Diagrams By: Daniel H. Kim The Systems
Thinker, Vol 3, No 1, pp5-6 (Feb 1992)

More at: [https://thesystemsthinker.com/](https://thesystemsthinker.com/)

A brief guide to interactive planning and idealized design by Russel Ackoff

Application of soft systems methodology to the real world process of teaching
and learning by Nandish V. Patel

An Application of Checkland’s Soft Systems Methodology to the Development of a
Military Information Operations Capability for the Australian Defence Force by
R. J. Staker

Defining innovation: Using soft systems methodology to approach the complexity
of innovation in educational technology by Glenda Cox

The viable system model: A briefing about organisational structure by Raul
Espejo

Complex Adaptive Systems by JASON BROWNLEE

Sustainability, complexity and learning: insights from complex systems
approaches by A. Espinosa, T. Porter

Stafford Beer’s Viable System Model An Interpretation By Trevor Hilder

Principles of the self-organizing system by W. Ross Ashby

Guidance on applying the viable system model by Sandra Hildbrand Shamim
Bodhanya

Embracing Human Experience in Applied Systems-Thinking by José-Rodrigo
Córdoba-Pachón

The Need for a Systemic Approach to Change Management—A Case Study by
Guangming Cao, Steve Clarke and Brian Lehaney

I have just included titles and authors, not direct download links to the PDF
as unsure about copyrights. Some of my copies of the PDF are stamped with the
date-time i downloaded. My email is in my profile if you want more.

~~~
agumonkey
No worries, I can manage to find books, if I ever need one I'll ping you.

And about the application, I was mostly curious about social dynamics. For
instance how to model society in order to find weak points (Donella Meadows
talks about the idea IIRC) in order to restructure/migrate population
lifestyles smooth and fast towards better ones (energy use, social tissue,
health etc).

Thanks again

~~~
neilkakkar
Have a look at Jay Forresters' paper. I quote it at the end of the article.
[https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/sloan-school-of-
management/15-98...](https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/sloan-school-of-
management/15-988-system-dynamics-self-study-
fall-1998-spring-1999/readings/behavior.pdf)

It's beautiful. The three principles are worth internalising.

~~~
agumonkey
Nice, a short piece.

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alexpetralia
I've always thought complex systems explained a lot of the world (ironically,
how little we know!) and I've found it to be a great mental model for
understanding the world.

Some of my thoughts are here:
[https://alexpetralia.github.io/2018/05/28/NL-2018-05-28.html](https://alexpetralia.github.io/2018/05/28/NL-2018-05-28.html)

~~~
wlib
Every once in a while I find a site like yours that has conveniently
aggregated a ton of stray thoughts and expands my world a little bit. Just
wanted to take a moment to say thanks for doing this

~~~
alexpetralia
Thank you for the kind words! :)

------
platz
Systems thinking is better used as an oblique strategy to drive inspiration
than as a formal discipline. Often the conclusions rest on assumptions &
axioms that even practicing statisticians would feel queasy about.

~~~
neilkakkar
This is something I struggled with a lot. Internal me would scream, _show me
the numbers!!_. But when I go into mathematical modelling, too many
assumptions make the model very.. basic. (Like you say)

However, if you aren't trying to control the system, but merely influence it -
this helps figure out the leverage points, and what will happen with
perturbations on said leverage points.

As far as understanding a system goes, that is good enough to use it to your
advantage.

A formal discipline gets detached from reality (mathematical modelling). This
I think rests somewhere in the middle.

Or, atleast, that's what I've come to see.

