
Selling England by the offshore pound - robin_reala
http://www.private-eye.co.uk/registry
======
smcl
First for any non-UK'ers who happen to be having trouble with the terminology
used:

If you own the "freehold" on a property it means you own the building and the
land

If you own "leasehold" you have a sort of long-term lease on the property for
a fixed and agreed upon length of time (could be 50 years, could be 100
years).

On a slightly different but related note (i.e not necessarily foreign owned
properties) the Private Eye article only shows the data for England, its
actually a good deal worse in Scotland where huge chunks of the country are
owned privately and indeed sometimes the owners are not even known. Take a
look at the map in the link below for a bleak picture
[http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/aug/10/scotland-
land...](http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/aug/10/scotland-land-rights)

~~~
cmdkeen
As someone who bought a city property last year the Scottish system is
lightyears ahead of England. I don't have to worry about leasehold, freehold
etc - I bought my flat, it is mine. Buying through solicitors and the
associated regulation produces a much more civilised system without gazumping
(or at least much less of it).

If you've ever spent much time in the Highlands you'll realise how remote and
limited it actually is. You're realistically always going to have very large
tracts of land owned by individuals or groups because it requires economies of
scale to run. Short of making almost all of it national parks I'm not
convinced the current state of play is that bad. Plus there is the right to
roam legislation enabling people to actually use the land, it isn't like
you're not allowed to walk on it.

~~~
JetSetWilly
Political sorts in Scotland like to produce statistics like "70% of the land
area of Scotland is owned by 500 people!" in order to shock people into
supporting their generally redistributive political views - it is endlessly
brought up.

But when you factor in land area value - if you could distort the area of
Scotland such that the land value and the area were 1:1 - then suddenly it
doesn't look anything like as bad. As the market says that owning a 4 bedroom
flat in the west end of Glasgow in fact is worth more then 10,000 acres of
land in the highlands.

Given as well that Scotland has very robust "right to roam" \- people can walk
on privately owned land as long as it isn't your back garden - and also laws
to allow "wild camping" and so on, it just doesn't seem like that big of an
issue to me either.

But nationalists in every country become obsessed with who owns the country,
especially if it is people outwith the country, people against their cause etc
- the SNP are no different.

~~~
willyt
I'm not Scottish but I live in the Highlands. I think it's less to do with
nationalism and more to do with to do with security of tenure. A lot of rural
housing and farmland is owned by these large estates. The houses that have not
been converted to holiday lets are often badly maintained and leased on very
short term tenancies by absentee landlords. Tenant farmers on these estates
have the additional problem that they can be also be evicted from the
farmland.

------
JonAtkinson
For those looking to research this further, there was also an excellent piece
on the Private Eye podcast which explores this in more detail:

[https://soundcloud.com/privateeyenews/page-94-episode-8](https://soundcloud.com/privateeyenews/page-94-episode-8)

~~~
branchless
Private Eye is doing the work our press should be doing. They are a true
bastion of freedom shining a light into the dark cesspool of the UK
establishment.

Subscribe to support them!

------
Brakenshire
Incidentally, if we are going to have global trade deals like TTIP and TPP,
which roll in all sorts of domestic regulations in the name of a level playing
field for global trade, I'd also like to see rules included which level the
playing field for democratic governments, campaigners and ordinary citizens.
For instance land ownership comes with liabilities, I can't see how it is
possible for that to be enforceable if the land can be owned by a brass plate
in the Cayman Islands. What reason is there, other than vested interests, not
to include some sort of transparent ownership of property and assets in these
international deals?

------
andy_ppp
It's almost as people are buying property in Britain as if it's some kind of
international ponzi scheme for the ultra rich...

~~~
go1979
Britain is hardly alone in this. Prices in Vancouver and Toronto are
absolutely insane when one considers incomes in the region. Sensible minds
have been claiming a crash for years but property prices continue to go up.
Funny thing is that the crazy housing in Britain/Canada make Bay area housing
appear like a good deal :-p

If anyone has a book/documentary suggestion on understanding what is going on,
would appreciate it.

~~~
corin_
Central London is really the only place in Britain that makes the Bay area
look OK in comparison.

According to Numbeo.com's cost of living comparisons, SF is a bit more
expensive to rent in than London, and a bit cheaper to buy in. But of course,
these are very generalised/averaged numbers, not looking at anything as
specific as "the bay area".

    
    
      SF
      Apartment (1 bedroom) in City Centre 			3,321.03 $ 	
      Apartment (1 bedroom) Outside of Centre 		2,580.00 $ 	
      Apartment (3 bedrooms) in City Centre 		6,393.33 $ 	
      Apartment (3 bedrooms) Outside of Centre 		4,928.57 $ 	
      Price per SQM to Buy Apartment in City Centre 	14,819.28 $ 	
      Price per SQM to Buy Apartment Outside of Centre 	9,543.88 $ 
      
      London
      Apartment (1 bedroom) in City Centre 			2,510.87 $
      Apartment (1 bedroom) Outside of Centre 		1,700.43 $
      Apartment (3 bedrooms) in City Centre 		5,099.81 $
      Apartment (3 bedrooms) Outside of Centre 		2,985.64 $
      Price per SQM to Buy Apartment in City Centre 	23,868.09 $
      Price per SQM to Buy Apartment Outside of Centre 	12,413.72 $
    

Obviously there are specific stupidly-expensive areas in London, and indeed
outside London in the UK.

~~~
jzwinck
Either I have a very different idea of what London's "City Centre" is, or the
numbers above for London look quite low. That said, for some people, Zone 4 is
"central" and for others only Zone 1 is. Curious how the SF numbers compare in
this regard.

~~~
abritinthebay
Traditionally Zone 1-2 is central.

Anyone who calls Zone 4 central is deluded.

------
Asbostos
Why does this matter? Somebody's going to own the land. If English people
don't want foreign companies owning it, then they should make that illegal. If
they don't have a stranglehold on who must pay tax to the UK government then
they should tax something else they they do have control over instead. If
these things have side effects that are even worse then welcome to the free
market - you have to make yourself attractive to taxpayers if you want them to
come and pay tax.

Australian have similar concerns. They don't like rich foreigners buying their
property. Yet somehow they still allow it.

~~~
m-i-l
I don't think the concern is about foreign ownership _per se_ , but rather the
lack of transparency associated with the offshore companies, particularly in
relation to potential tax (Stamp Duty) avoidance and money laundering[0].

[0] [http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jul/25/london-
housin...](http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jul/25/london-housing-
market-launder-offshore-tax-havens)

~~~
pauly
agreed, I looked around the area I live in Kent and it looks like people
buying a house "tax efficiently" ahem, via companies in the Channel islands,
rather than oligarchs buying up swathes of the town.

------
Fizzadar
This explains why (my) rent is so high - and why the first time buyer is a
thing of the past in London.

------
mkj
Most of the "foreigners" seem to Jersey, British Virgin Isles, Guernsey,
Gibraltar, Isle of Man. Are they just tax dodges from UK citizens?

~~~
notahacker
Many of them will be British. But regardless of nationality, there's a logic
in domiciling your holding company for British assets in a tax haven familiar
with the intricacies of British property law. And Crown Dependencies make up a
surprisingly large percentage of reliable tax havens...

------
IkmoIkmo
It's not all bad. For example I found Giorgio Armani to hold a 4 million pound
property, based in Italy, the italian high-fashion company of course. The map
isn't a list of only tax-avoiding cayman-island listed oil doller financed
foreign ownership that you could criticise.

Another fun one is the new American embassy, 64 million pounds. Proprietor
listed as 'United states of america', country listed as 'unable to confirm',
haha. One of the few freeholds on the map by the way and one of the biggest,
too. Not finished if anyone's wondering.

Other than that, the majority of the map is pretty insane. Isle of man,
panama, cayman, jersey, it just keeps on going.

------
Flimm
Anna Powell-Smith... I thought I recognised that name. She's done quite a few
of these interesting visualisations. Her website is
[http://anna.ps/](http://anna.ps/)

------
lucaspiller
A lot of the properties in my area are addressed as "Airspace above ...". Any
idea what this is about?

~~~
andyjohnson0
At a guess - flats / apartments located above an area of land.

------
branchless
Sadly not a new concept. The UK has been on the slide for a hell of a while.

Genesis from 1973: Selling England by the Pound

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Rn9tzirks4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Rn9tzirks4)

------
tired_man
Is this a case of wealth UK residents fleeing to less tax-greedy locales and
leaving the land for whomever is willing to deal with inland revenue?

~~~
Joeboy
Like Phil Collins of the band that made "Selling England by the Pound".

Edit: What's with the thing where I get downvoted and my comment shows as
downvoted for other people (or at least for me when I'm not logged in), but
not for me? It's like a kind of half-arsed shadowban or something. Bug?

~~~
e40
Peter Gabriel was the lead singer at the time that album was made. Phil didn't
join until much later.

~~~
elsurudo
Collins was already in the band (IIRC he may even have been a founding
member). The difference is he wasn't yet the frontman – he was the drummer.
Pre-Collins-fronted Genesis is way better though, IMO (I do like me some
progressive rock, though).

~~~
tired_man
The things I learn visiting here amaze me. I liked their music but never
placed a group/faces to songs I saw one on MTV with PC as lead. I thought they
formed the group with that format.

------
1971genocide
Crocodile tears are being shed.

Britain has been enriching itself using outright aggression prior to WW2, and
since then using its influence in the global monetary system.

Mexico, Bangladesh and india has been for years trying to pursuade the british
govt to help them get all the black money locked up in the UK back to them.
And I am not sure what is going on with all the Russian black money. The
Saudis too use London to hide their petroldollars and so do countless african
dictators and terrorist organiznations.

It will be sweet to watch when the chickens come home to roost.

~~~
mikecmpbll
Empire is of no relevance to British citizens today, or for a long time,
whereas this is.

Also, I've never read anything about this
mexican/bangladeshi/indian/russian/saudi black money that you're talking
about—link?

~~~
pascalmemories
The downvotes for the original poster in this thread are probably due to the
rather vitriolic sounding language used.

But, setting that aside and responding to your question :

It's ironic that if you had ever followed Private Eye, you would have read all
the details of money laundering through London; the original article is really
about exactly that and how people can use anonymous companies (often in Nevis)
to launder huge sums through London property and the lack of action by UK
authorities even when egregious abuses take place.

So, a starting link is [http://www.private-
eye.co.uk/registry](http://www.private-eye.co.uk/registry) \- EXACTLY the one
that this discussion is about.

~~~
branchless
Exactly - the UK is _the home_ of financial fraud. Many of the problems of tax
evasion stem from their tax havens set up around the world.

The City is a cancer that is feeding on the entire world. The City needs
exorcising from the UK. And like all parasites it would not survive without
protection for long.

