
China unveils 600 kph maglev train prototype - mparramon
http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1151282.shtml
======
athenot
The article mentions "designed top speed of 600 km per hour". But then a bit
further it mentions "Now the prototype has achieved _static_ levitation and is
in good condition" (emphasis mine). That leaves me wondering what was the
actual speed reached during testing and what will be the actual operational
speed.

Don't get me wrong, I still find this project impressive.

But there's a fair amount of boasting going on as well. For example the French
TGV boasted a measured record of 574 km/h. But that's on a (modified) test
unit and a test track. Operational speed is about 320 km/h on most tracks.

Perhaps they simply haven't gotten to the testing/benchmark phase yet.

~~~
bufferoverflow
The Beijing–Shanghai HSR train _averages_ 300 km/h over an almost 5-hour ride,
two years ago they upgraded it to peak at 350 km/h.

~~~
dis-sys
The Beijing-Shanghai line was designed to operate at 350km/h with the plan to
upgrade to 380km/h, it was downgraded to 300km/h after the 2011 Wenzhou
accident in which 40 people killed.

~~~
lostmsu
In WA we recently had a deadly accident at under 100kph...

~~~
konspence
That was ~125 km/h (78 mph)

[https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Pages/RR...](https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Pages/RRD18MR001-prelim.aspx)

------
gnode
The cabin is interesting. There doesn't seem to be much visibility through the
windows. I guess at such speeds the driver can only rely on information feeds
from far up ahead, and there's little advantage to being able to see with the
naked eye. Large windows would probably make it less safe in the event of
flying debris too.

It makes me wonder why not get rid of them all together and make the cabin
like a tank. To get some sunlight perhaps?

~~~
SiempreViernes
That's a good point, wonder if they can even open the side windows to look
out?

I think the windows on trains generally serve to give situational awareness at
the station, once you are up to speed reacting to unexpected impediments isn't
so time critical since the train isn't likely to stop fast enough anyway.

~~~
gnode
Reacting to things is still important and time critical. You just can't react
to anything in sight. Instead the things you can react to are data and camera
feeds from far up ahead. What are the other trains doing? Did the next
junction switch successfully?

I think that raises a question of: what is the point of having a driver on the
train? Why not have people in a control room drive the trains, coordinating
the system as a whole? Arguably this is already the case, with some trains
automatically stopping in cases of signal violation. Maybe the reason is
simply that passengers would rather trust a driver whose life is invested
along with theirs.

~~~
dmitriid
Remote control systems can and will fail.

~~~
Symbiote
I don't know what's considered a safe speed for moving a train without working
safety systems on a European high-speed railway, but it's almost certainly so
slow (20-40km/h) that the system is designed such that failure of the control
system is extremely rare. Should it fail, the priority will be to restore it,
rather than move trains around very slowly.

~~~
dmitriid
On-train systems will stop the train in case of failure.

I was responding to “Why not have people in a control room drive the trains,
coordinating the system as a whole”. Infrastructure and timetables are
centrally coordinated (or actoss several centers). Controlling a train
remotely introduces multiple points of failure:

\- connection lag

\- connection quality

\- remote operators don’t have the full details on a train (unless you have
one operator per train)

Remote/automatic control works in smaller systems (such as subways, see e.g.
Copenhagen), but the speeds there are usually smaller, the “fleet” is smaller,
you can reach the trains in case of failure faster etc.

------
tty2300
I really wish we had high speed rail in Australia. I'd pick a 600km/h train
over a plane any day.

~~~
GorgeRonde
High speed train works well in France (and it's just 300km/h) because the
country is small. Australia is huge. And so is the US.

This would make sense along coasts though but you wouldn't be able to cross
the country from sea to sea in a few hours of course.

What's good with trains is that you can hop in at the very last moment (when
the bell rings, happened to me a couple times) and the train stops in the
center of cities, instead of the suburbs. This is the main reason why high
speed train in France can compete with airplanes when crossing the country. By
plane I must first reach the airport (30 mins), have some time ahead before
embarking (30 mins), the flight is 1 hour long but the time to actually take
off and pick back your luggages it's almost 2 hours long, and then you have to
reach the center of your destination city (30 mins). By my generous estimates,
it takes 3h30 to travel by plane North/South in France vs 4 hours by train.

And because currently not every railroad segment can support high speed trains
going at full velocity (but work is in progress) it could take 3 hours. 300
km/h

Also note that Amdahl's law [1] applies in this context (there are diminishing
returns in optimizing the speed of only one segment of the full path) and
travelling the last kilometers accounts for a significant portion of the
travel time.

For instance the TGV has to slow down when entering cities (because of the
noise) and at some point in the development of the high speed rail network, it
might become more interesting to dig long tunnels under cities for these
trains rather than increasing the train's maximum speed.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amdahl%27s_law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amdahl%27s_law)

~~~
rswail
Australia is huge, but everyone lives in 7 cities (within a margin of error).
A high speed rail that covered
Melbourne/Albury/Canberra/Sydney/Newcastle/Tamworth?/Brisbane would have a
huge impact.

The distances are (as the crow flies): Melbourne-Albury: 260km Albury-
Canberra: 219km Canberra-Sydney: 247km Sydney-Newcastle: 117km Newcastle-
Tamworth: 219km Tamworth-Brisbane: 450km

That last leg might need another break in it.

But at 300kph average speed that's 2.5 hours Melbourne - Sydney (CBD-CBD), say
3.5 hours with stopovers.

To get to Sydney for a 9:00 start in the CBD from Melbourne now takes (CBD -
CBD): Taxi: 30m + 1hr check in + 1.5 hour flight + 30m taxi: 3.5 hours.

I'd take the train any day. Space, able to work, sleep, dining car etc. Not
affected by weather or other airport backlogs. You still get up at a god-awful
time of the morning, but the actual travel would be much more tolerable.

~~~
chrismorgan
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_Australia_by...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_Australia_by_population):
it’s actually under 70% of the population in the top 7 cities in that list,
with the two giants being Sydney and Melbourne with 20% each. 30% is a fairly
large rounding error! :-)

I agree with your judgement in general, nonetheless.

~~~
kuzehanka
That 30% rounding error are people who don't have any interest in travelling
to major cities.

Giving mobility to those people would unlock new use cases of its own, but the
GP post is actually accurate to commercial reality.

~~~
vonmoltke
Perth doesn't count as a major city? (% of that 30% live within its metro
area. This isn't to say the 7-city grid is a bad idea, but your statement is
inaccurate.

~~~
dredmorbius
Perth (and Darwin) are essentally islands of their own.

Perth-Adelaide (nearest major metro) is 2,131km _air mles_ , over the Great
Austrailian Bight (ocean). Land route is 2,695 km (1,675 mi).

Darwin-Brisbane is even further: 2,848 km by air, 3,425 km by ground (2,128
mi).

By 300 kph HSR, those are 7+ hour trips, vs about 3 by air. And those are
nearest-nighbour trips.

There is effectively no population between either location -- unless somehow
induced (a possibility), a high-speed rail service would have tpo rely on
endpoint-traffic only. Climate, economy, and ag productivity (low) make
development unlikely.

[https://www.distancecalculator.net/from-perth-to-
adelaide](https://www.distancecalculator.net/from-perth-to-adelaide)

[https://www.distancecalculator.net/from-brisbane-to-
darwin](https://www.distancecalculator.net/from-brisbane-to-darwin)

By contrast, the southeastern zone of Adelaide-Melbourne-Canberra-Sydny-
Brisbane, is compact with five major metros over 1,601 km (air), though the
ground route is still 2,005 km (1,246 mi).

[https://www.distancecalculator.net/from-adelaide-to-
brisbane](https://www.distancecalculator.net/from-adelaide-to-brisbane)

And still, the only HSR corridor that's been seriously considered is
SydneyMelbourne. Quite validly.

Australia is almost wholly empty space.

[https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=5/-24.921/134.272](https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=5/-24.921/134.272)

Populations:

Perth: 2m

Adelaide: 1.7m

Melbourne: 5m

Canberra: 0.4m

Sydney: 5.2m

Brisbane: 3.6m (metro area)

Darwin: 0.1m

------
gattilorenz
Naive, irrelevant question. Is kph the correct way to signal "kilometers per
hour" in English?

I think I have seen this before in videogames maybe. Is it an US-only thing?

~~~
Tor3
"kph" makes no sense - kilos per hour? Offical SI notation is km/h, and IMO
that's what should be used.

~~~
timbit42
...or kmph

------
stirlo
I’ve ridden on the Changsha Maglev, China’s first indigenous maglev and I was
thoroughly unimpressed. The ride was rough and quite slow, nothing like their
High Speed Rail which is world leading. I’m surprised they’d be able to
develop world leading technology so quickly. But then again for areas of
strategic interest we’ve seen China make similar bounds before. Makes me
wonder how their Made in China 2025 efforts in CPU design/production is
fairing...

~~~
kuschku
Most of their "world leading" High Speed Rail, as you call it, is actually
using Siemens Velaro D/E rolling stock — the same train used in Europe as
"ICE" or for some of the Eurostar lines :)

~~~
88840-8855
Siemens Velaro have gigantic issues in good old Germany. And China has indeed
homegrown machines, such as the CRH380A or the CR400AF.

Further, there is also a lot of shit tier technology in Germany.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-Bahn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-Bahn)

Siemens is actually still offering that system. If you ride it, you will
wonder how it was possible to combine all disadvantages of all existing people
mover rail technology and to produce that.

~~~
kuschku
> Siemens Velaro have gigantic issues in good old Germany.

I have heard about a _lot_ of issues with many kinds of rolling stock, but so
far I haven’t heard anything negative about the DB Br 407. The Br 412/812?
yeah, that one’s fucked, but so far I’ve heard few complaints about the Br 407
(and personally, the Br 407 is probably the smoothest ride there is)

Could you describe some of the issues you’ve had with the ICE 3 (MS)?

------
LargoLasskhyfv
So i've been following this and feel unsatisfied with the "buzz" about it. Let
me explain why:

The best Pictures can be seen here

[http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-05/23/c_138082738.htm](http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-05/23/c_138082738.htm)

whereby the third is the most interesting to me, because it allows comparing
whith the existing pictures of the Transrapids "Track-Train-Interface" (for
lack of a better term). It looks similar, but not exactly. Would it matter?
Who really cares?

What i do care about is how "real" this thing is. Because for all we know this
just a mockup on stilts. There is nothing wrong with mockups as such. Except
for this mockup on stilts there is no footage to be found which shows this
thing on a longer test track, or this thing on a test stand where at least it
is levitating in the configuration like shown in the press. Any footage, if
existing at all shows different systems. Furthermore neither

[https://binged.it/2M6k70R](https://binged.it/2M6k70R)

nor

[https://goo.gl/maps/h687Cptq2U4kH2Pm9](https://goo.gl/maps/h687Cptq2U4kH2Pm9)

show any signs of testing track at the factory, or its surroundings.

So until further notice i consider this as a notion of intent to build, but
far from ready. As i said, for all we know, the "production rollout" is that
of the modelmaker without the real innards.

Btw.: Anybody remembering

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transit_Elevated_Bus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transit_Elevated_Bus)
?

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aPPXB7gqYU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aPPXB7gqYU)

( first 12 seconds only ^v^ )

~~~
LargoLasskhyfv
_sigh_ in case someone mentions the dotted track to the SW

[https://osm.org/go/5yfE0BZx--?m=](https://osm.org/go/5yfE0BZx--?m=)

THAT looked interesting, especially with the stationlike structure at the end.
But level crossings like can be seen on gmaps? Doesn't look like
separate/different track at all.

Correct me, if i'm wrong.

~~~
LargoLasskhyfv
_i can 't get no levitation_

[https://j.map.baidu.com/rybf-](https://j.map.baidu.com/rybf-)

Mysteriously the end of the branch/spur about a mile to the SW is not visible
there. Anyways, doesn't look different to what's visible in gmaps, looks all
like conventional tracks.

------
brainwipe
"Roll off the production line" triggered me a number of times in the article.
Perhaps "glide off" would be a better phrase?

------
robin_reala
Just 3 km/h less than Japan’s current prototype (but approaching production)
system:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L0_Series](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L0_Series)

~~~
Grue3
Interesting that there are plans to run this between Washington DC and
Baltimore and finish it in the same year Tokyo-Nagoya is finished. Probably
won't happen, but still.

------
nayuki
This news site is strange. Every article headline has a rather positive view
of China.

~~~
gok
Global Times is a party-run foreign affairs tabloid. So yes, it's pro-China
bordering on nationalistic. Still, it's a useful source of what the CCP likes
to say when they have a small sense of plausible deniability.

------
raverbashing
That's faster than your average turboprop plane, the Q400 can get up to
~660km/h but that's one of the fastests (commercially available today)

------
zeristor
At these high velocities air resistance becomes a huge problem, making it
impracticable. Wasn't this the main reason for putting very fast trains
through evacuated tubes, my copy of the Usborne Book of the Future had this in
seventies. Although Musk had a go at reviving it, the ideas Hyperloop has been
based on have been around for ages.

~~~
adamlett
There's rumours of a vehicle that has somehow overcome the problem of air
resistance and is able to go faster even than this train: "The Aeroplane".
Maybe you've heard of it?

~~~
blu42
Propeller-based airplanes are not that much faster than this train -- current
propeller world record stands at 855 km/h. For higher speeds jet/turbofan
engines would be the choice, as they are among the few propulsion forms that
can operate very efficiently _with_ the atmospheric medium, rather than fully
_against_ it (up to certain speeds). So unless you equip that train with jet
turbines (impractical for a number of reasons), you will be paying a huge
energy price for airplane speeds at ground altitudes (holds true for any kind
of ground transportation). As a result those trains are seldom operated at
their peak speeds.

------
bjnord
Interesting that this was just on HN a few days ago: "What Happened to
Hovertrains? (2018)"
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19944382](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19944382)

------
SllX
Let’s put this kind of speed into perspective using distances between North
American cities and existing highways, from Google Maps. This is not a
proposal, this is merely perspective.

Note: this is also not a proposed route map, but it is probably bleedin’
obvious that some major cities lend themselves to being high speed rail hubs
more than others, because they were and/or are historical rail hubs.

I tried to cover the entire lower 48 and the a good portion of Canada and a
small part of Mexico so that hopefully most everyone in the US sees a possible
line in the data that would 1. Interest them and 2. Give them a sense of scale
as to how far two points of interest really are and 3. Imagine how long it
would take to get from one point of interest to another along a 600 kph
railway.

\- Seattle to Portland: 280 kilometers

\- Seattle to Spokane: 449 kilometers

\- Seattle to Fargo: 2296 kilometers

\- Seattle to Minneapolis: 2666 kilometers

\- Seattle to Chicago: 3322 kilometers

\- San Francisco to Los Angeles: 617 kilometers

\- San Francisco to San Diego: 807 kilometers

\- San Francisco to Ensenada, Baja California: 937 kilometers

\- San Francisco to Cabo San Lucas, Baja California Sur: 2456 Baja California
Sur (from San Diego: 1654 kilometers)

\- San Francisco to Reno: 352 kilometers

\- San Francisco to Sacramento: 141 kilometers

\- San Francisco to Salt Lake City: 1184 kilometers

\- San Francisco to Chicago: 3426 kilometers

\- San Francisco to Portland: 1022 kilometers

\- San Francisco to Seattle: 1300 kilometers

\- San Francisco to Vancouver, British Columbia: 1529 kilometers

\- Los Angeles to Las Vegas: 435 kilometers

\- Los Angeles to Phoenix: 600 Kilometers

\- Los Angeles to Salt Lake City: 1108 kilometers

\- Los Angeles to Denver: 1635 kilometers

\- Los Angeles to Chicago: 3244 kilometers

\- San Diego to Mexicali: 198 kilometers

\- San Diego to Tucson: 655 kilometers

\- San Diego to El Paso: 1165 kilometers

\- San Diego to Houston: 2366 kilometers

\- San Diego to New Orleans: 2922 kilometers

\- Dallas to Corpus Christi: 662 kilometers

\- Houston to Austin: 266 kilometers

\- Houston to San Antonio: 317 kilometers

\- Houston to El Paso: 1199 kilometers

\- Houston to Dallas: 385 kilometers

\- Houston to Corpus Christi: 334 kilometers

\- Houston to New Orleans: 560 kilometers

\- Houston to Tallahassee: 1141 kilometers

\- Houston to Miami: 1911 kilometers

\- Houston to Denver: 1656 kilometers

\- Houston to Oklahoma City: 716 kilometers

\- Houston to Kansas City: 1198 kilometers

\- Houston to St. Louis: 1253 kilometers

\- (Trans-Missouri Express! Kansas City to St. Louis: 399 kilometers)

\- Houston to Chicago: 1741 kilometers

\- Houston to Nashville: 1253 kilometers

\- Houston to Atlanta: 1276 kilometers

\- Houston to Charleston: 1756 kilometers

\- Houston to Charlotte: 1668 kilometers

\- Houston to Washington: 2270 kilometers

\- Chicago to Winnipeg: 1392 kilometers

\- Chicago to Saskatoon: 2109 kilometers

\- Chicago to Edmonton: 2633 kilometers

\- Chicago to Calgary: 2570 kilometers

\- Chicago to Milwaukee: 148 kilometers

\- Chicago to Minneapolis: 657 kilometers

\- Chicago to Des Moines: 537 kilometers

\- Chicago to Lincoln: 841 kilometers

\- Chicago to Denver: 1617 kilometers

\- Chicago to Kansas City: 820 kilometers

\- Chicago to St. Louis: 503 kilometers

\- Chicago to Memphis: 850 kilometers

\- Chicago to Indianapolis: 292 kilometers

\- Chicago to Nashville: 757 kilometers

\- Chicago to Louisville: 476 kilometers

\- Chicago to Washington: 1124 Kilometers

\- Chicago to Philadelphia: 1221 kilometers

\- Chicago to New York: 1270 kilometers

\- Chicago to Detroit: 453 kilometers

\- Chicago to London, Ontario: 648 kilometers

\- Chicago to Toronto: 835 kilometers

\- Chicago to Ottawa: 1271 kilometers

\- Chicago to Montreal: 1363 kilometers

\- Chicago to Boston: 1581 kilometers

\- Chicago to Portland, Maine: 1740 kilometers

\- Boston to Portland, Maine: 180 kilometers

\- Boston to New York: 353 kilometers

\- New York to Albany: 249 kilometers

\- New York to Syracuse: 397 kilometers

\- New York to Montreal: 596 kilometers

\- New York to Montauk: 190 kilometers

\- New York to New Haven: 130 kilometers

\- New York to Buffalo: 600 kilometers

\- New York to Philadelphia: 151 kilometers

\- New York to Washington: 364 kilometers

\- New York to Raleigh: 811 kilometers

\- New York to Charleston: 1219 kilometers

\- New York to Atlanta: 1390 kilometers

\- New York to Miami: 2059 kilometers

\- Miami to Orlando: 380 kilometers

\- Miami to Jacksonville: 558 kilometers

\- Miami to Savannah: 783 kilometers

\- Miami to Tampa: 454 kilometers

\- Miami to Tallahassee: 777 kilometers

------
christkv
In three years they developed the technology needed, more likely just ripped
off the tech from Siemens on the Shanghai line.

~~~
simion314
Your sentiment is popular this days with the big propaganda we see but is
there any hint that what you say is true, maybe they stole it from other
company or maybe in a country with such a large population you will have a
large number of smart people.

~~~
frostburg
There are lawsuits involving the issue, as another comment reports. Jumping to
''big propaganda'' is unwarranted.

~~~
yorwba
The lawsuit in the other comment doesn't involve Siemens though, hence "maybe
they stole it from other company" might be more accurate.

------
Numberwang
That's less than 12hrs London to New Delhi. Imagine the possibilities.

