
Buy a Sofa Online? Wayfair Is Counting on It - jseliger
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/15/business/wayfair-online-furniture.html
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lobster_johnson
Wayfair (and their various demographically-targeted brands, which include Joss
and Main, All Modern, Birch Lane and Dwell Studio) is such a horrible mix of
crap and quality. I believe they really have to overcome this to become
successful.

One confusing and annoying problem with retailers like Wayfair, and the many
other outlets (Overstock, Barcelona Designs and many others), is that most of
their inventory is white-labeled; they buy no-brand products from Asia (China
being the main one) which they sell under fictional brand names such as "Ivy
Bronx", "Langley Street", "Wade Logan" and so on. You'll find the exact same
products elsewhere under other fictional brand names. Often I've been able to
find a product, such as a lamp, that's maybe $100 on Wayfair, being sold for
$200 in a different online store; _exact_ same product, made in the same
Chinese factory, but differently branded.

The shadiness undermines the integrity of the brand, but it means it's also
impossible to predict the quality of what you order. "Langley Street" is just
a style, and isn't necessarily all from the same manufacturer. This confusion
is compounded by the fact that Wayfair also mixes "authentic" products such as
Flos and Artemide into their inventory.

But also, a lot of these products are just complete junk. So much is laminate,
cardboard and fiberboard. There's surprisingly good, solid-wood furniture made
in places like India and Thailand, but usually the online descriptions doesn't
give you the full materials list. A lot of times you can get quality hardwood,
but the joinery is terrible (lots of patching, glue, etc.).

~~~
Matthias247
Isn’t that model the same in normal furniture shops? When I visited the bigger
ones (XXXL Lutz chain in Germany) they always had lots of furniture under
their in-house brands, which I guess is relabeled other stuff. More funky then
the names is the pricing, because it’s always reduced. You will never see
anything for full price, it will always be labeled with something like 30-50%
off. Which however just reflects real market value. that’s actually the thing
I like most about Ikea. Pricing and product range are stable.

~~~
wlesieutre
But with the physical store you can walk into the showroom and get a feel for
whether a couch is a cheap because it’s a piece of garbage or if it’s a good
deal on a piece of solid furniture.

Not with 100 percent certainly, but a lot better than some staged photos on a
website.

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wiremine
We recently moved and my wife attempted to purchase 5 different items from
Wayfair: we ended up returning 4 of them.

The problem was color: the photography online was typically very different
from the final product. We kept thinking there was a simple fix: send sample
veneers to a customer to let them see what the actual product looks like. They
could rent them out like lots of other furniture places do with fabric. I'd
easily drop $100 on rent if I didn't have to deal with returning something.

We also had one coffee table that was half-stained: they literally forgot to
stain half the table.

~~~
vas123
My wife purchased some pendant lights for our kitchen, and what arrived was a
totally different color. Return was handled no problem.

Second time ordering lights, they were missing a part. After trying
unsuccessfully of having the manufacturer ship us the missing part the order
was cancelled. Again the return was handled no problem.

Third order the product was satisfactory.

Gotta hand it to their support though, returns were handled no questions asked
and seamless. Makes putting up with the hassle almost worth it.

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nsxwolf
I've been burned by online furniture too many times. There's just no way to
get a sense of something's quality online. You need to be able to touch it.

Price is not an indicator. My grandfather bought a couch and coffee table from
Ethan Allen in the 1960s. They seemed to have been carved from a single block
of wood and weighed a ton. Now everything they sell feels like it is made of
cardboard, but it costs thousands and thousands of dollars.

~~~
tekstar
so.. you're saying shipping weight is an indicator?

~~~
s73ver_
Well, it can indicate what the materials are, like if it's solid wood or not.
It can't really indicate how it's put together.

~~~
otterley
Solid wood is actually far lighter per cubic food than most composite
materials. Glue is rather dense compared to wood.

~~~
princeb
Depends. The most popular engineered wood for furniture is MDF, which from the
name ("medium density") you can imagine is not too dense and not too light.

The solid wood choices I thought were really beautiful for furniture (for the
aesthetics and tactile qualities) are teak, oak, mahogany, and american
walnut, all of which are rather dense (e.g. Asian teak is extremely heavy,
while walnut is just as dense as MDF).

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jedberg
I bought one online from Costco.com. After I ordered, they sent me a fabric
sample and made me sign a sheet that had things like "I have checked the
fabric sample and the color and texture are to my liking", and "I understand
that this couch is firmer than most".

When it arrived they put it together and everything was fine. Then a month
later a seam popped. I called them and they said, "We can send someone to fix
it, no charge, or give you $230, your choice". I assume $230 was the cost of
repair.

~~~
drchickensalad
Costco is absolutely insane. I have no idea how they're in business and I
enjoy every minute of it.

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vintageseltzer
Writing this as my wife and I are on the way to Ikea for the second time this
week to choose a couch ...

You really need to see the couch in person before buying it. It’s really hard
to judge quality otherwise. You need to feel the fabric of the sofa, sit and
lay down on it to feel the cushions, and see the color in person. Our first
trip to Ikea was meticulously researched, but when we saw the options we had
chosen online in person we completely changed our minds.

We did find a couch we loved on Wayfair but there were few photos and the
description of the item was incorrect. The item was a chaise sectional listed
as reversible (the chaise could be switched between the left and right sides)
but the item listed two separate prices for left vs. right. When I messaged
Wayfair about the issue through their ‘Questions’ option on the item they
responded quickly only to say that the item description was incorrect and it
was not reversible. However, the item’s description currently remains
incorrect and my question was not made public like the others. This, combined
with the fact that no official dimensions are included in the item description
makes me think Wayfair is a dressed up Alibaba for furniture, and not a
serious online option like Article, which at least has a lot of good quality
photos per item.

~~~
bonniemuffin
+1 on the sketchy item descriptions. I ordered an item that turned out to not
have a feature listed in the description.

Interestingly, I just checked and it looks like they've corrected the
description after I left a 1-star review about it.

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bluedino
If you're looking for a $249 couch, it's the way to go.

Around here, at least the low-end furniture stores like Art Van stock a ton of
low-end Chinese-built furniture. Everything is particleboard and laminate, it
scratches and peels and is basically junk, but they want to charge full price
for it. At least when you buy a cheap table from Amazon it's priced
accordingly.

I can see their industry turning upside very quickly. Furniture store are
huge, they have tons of sales people making handsome commissions, they rely on
selling furniture marked off by 40% with a different 'sale' each week, and
make most of their money on the financing arm and fabric protection packages
and wood polish extras.

~~~
Varcht
Not just brick and mortars, recently I was looking at a couch on OverStock.com
at ~ $1,100 , they have good prices right? I shopped around, found the same
couch from a local company online (LA area) for $399 shipped. Transaction went
smoothly quality was good.

~~~
Alupis
> on OverStock.com at ~ $1,100 , they have good prices right? I shopped
> around, found the same couch from a local company online (LA area) for $399
> shipped

Overstock.com, like Amazon.com (and Walmart.com), is mainly a marketplace
these days, with the overwhelming majority of products sold by 3rd party
vendors. You will see a wide range of products, and pricing, as you noticed
here.

Always shop around. Don't assume that just because its on
Amazon|Overstock|Walmart|whatever, that it must be a good deal.

------
andrewl
I think there's room for more companies like Home Reserve
([https://homereserve.com](https://homereserve.com)) which ships you a couch
or chair in a few boxes you can carry up to a fourth-floor walkup and assemble
yourself. If you get tired of the fabric you chose, or it gets damaged, you
can order replacements. The covers zip off and zip on. Beyond the testimonials
on their site (which all seem to be glowing, unsurprisingly) I have no idea of
their quality. But when I was younger I'd have been happy with something
convenient that was a step up from Ikea.

~~~
everybodyknows
Interestingly specialized vendor. Made to order, in USA. Upholstered furniture
only.

Frame looks to be oriented strandboard:
[https://homereserve.com/features](https://homereserve.com/features)

~~~
e1ven
I've been using one of their products for a few months now. It was easy enough
to assemble, and is reasonably comfortable for the price. It's nice to be able
to cheaply and easily design the layout which works for my house.

I'm pretty rough on things, and one of the strand board back pieces has broken
twice. They've mailed me replacements pretty quickly, but I do wish it were a
stronger material.

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
Reinforce it.

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basseq
Quality is really hard to judge. I bought a $500 desk on Wayfair last month,
and was unhappy with the quality: cheap-o joining and cheap-looking laminate.
It was chipped and broken when we got it, and because it would be too
expensive (and worthless) to ship back, they just refunded our money and told
us to donate it. I found a veneer desk locally for 50% of the price that I'm
much happier with.

------
alxvio
I purchased a $350 dresser from Overstock a few weeks ago. It arrived with ~10
pieces in ruins or had large visual defects. After giving Overstock a call,
they sent out a box of replacement parts; however, they sent it to the wrong
address. After another call, we finally got the parts. Of course, one of the
replacement parts is also defective...

That's the last time I purchase furniture online.

~~~
unit91
Same experience with Overstock when I bought a table. Three months and several
frustrations later, I got the table and they offered me a 10% discount on my
next furniture order. Needless to say, I'll never shop there again.

However, when my wife bought a chair on Wayfair, we didn't have any issues.
I'd definitely do it again. It all depends on who you buy from.

------
Digory
Furniture has a huge warehousing problem. Buying furniture without seeing it
is the pits.

That means successful furniture stores have become massive, so you can see the
goods and buy immediately. In the midwest, Berkshire's Nebraska Furniture Mart
and Ikea are are difficult to beat for staple furniture.

But once you see it at Nebraska Furniture Mart (or something from the same
manufacturer) you get an awfully sweet deal on it online. That's the near-term
play. The long-term play of getting people to buy sight unseen will be far
more difficult; Wayfair has traditionally tried price and ease of
shipping/returns, but that only goes so far.

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pfooti
I bought a couple of rugs from wayfair, mainly because it was a convenient way
to buy rugs, as in: I didn't really want to go shopping for a long time to
find a rug that met my needs (dimension, colors, price).

I'm currently in the market for a sofa, but this is more of a hobby than
anything else - my wife and I don't have the same taste in sofa design, it
turns out, so the overlap between what each like is small to start with.
Factor in the need to be a nap-comfortable sofa and there's a lot of
limitations there. A good sofa should last 20+ years, so I'm willing to take
the time to find the right one.

~~~
Sangermaine
What was your experience buying rugs from them? I'm in the same boat as you in
terms of wanting a rug but not wanting to spend time physically going around.

~~~
pfooti
It was pretty positive. I bought two area rugs from them, both are holding up
well. According to my order history, they're now 2.8 years old, so I'd say I'm
pleased. Not super-cheap ($375 for the two of them), but free shipping.
Neither seem to be available anymore, which isn't super-surprising given stock
turnover and so on.

------
shostack
I would LOVE to buy furniture online, but the kickers are that quality is so
hit or miss (usually miss), and there are expensive penalties in the form of
return shipping fees. So I usually avoid it because I'm not ok paying
$50-$100+ just to find out the photography was misleading so the colors are
all wrong, and the built quality is exceptionally cheap.

I don't mind buying online as long as there are free in-store returns, but
that tends to limit me to things like Target, Bed Bath, and a couple others.
Some, like West Elm are really sneaky here. A lot of their items are just in a
warehouse and are "web only." If it isn't a local warehouse, they don't do
free in-store returns, so you again get hit with the ridiculous fee.

I hope to god Amazon does something with free in-store returns with all the
Whole Foods real estate they purchased. If you could drop something off (and
not worry about packaging it up for return shipping with FedEx), have them
handle the return and be done with it, that would save me a lot of headaches
AND make me spend a lot more for large online furniture purchases.

In the meantime, I've started experimenting with Modsy, which is great because
they have 3d renderings of all the products from various stores, so at least I
know the dimensions will be right, and the color should hopefully be a bit
more on point. It also lets me visualize it in my space with lots of other
stuff which is half the problem. Seriously, the renderings have to be seen to
be believed.

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jseliger
I bought a sofa online and it is, frustratingly, one inch too short.

I find the Campaign Living concept:
[https://www.campaignliving.com/products/the-
sofa?variant=416...](https://www.campaignliving.com/products/the-
sofa?variant=41637138252) to be an interesting one, however.

~~~
Impossible
I think AR will find a useful niche here, IKEA already has an ARKit app and I
think it will become standard for any large furniture or home improvement
store. One problem with AR is that is won't solve the comfort problem. You
don't need to get a "feel" for a bookshelf or a cabinet, but couches, beds and
chairs vary a lot in terms of comfort level and you can't really know if
something will be comfortable unless you sit or lay on it.

~~~
GFischer
I have no idea why you were downvoted - big ticket items are ideal for AR :) .

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pm90
I have mixed feelings about Wayfair. My hunch is that Amazon is eyeing the
market and will aggressively target it once it becomes a focus. That would be
interesting to see: Amazon's supply chain management is perhaps one of the
best (maybe Walmart is about the same) and I don't think Wayfair would be able
to compete.

Now, my personal experience with Wayfair has been mixed. They don't
manufacture anything themselves, so its usually a hit or miss. I LOVE the
bedframe I bought from them, which turned out to be actually manufactured by a
Korean company called Zinus. However, a nice headboard that I purchased was of
poor quality (it looks nice at first, but the wood is soft... dents easily.
The workmanship is not very good, and this is clear even to an untrained eye
like mine).

~~~
twoodfin
I wonder if it would be worth the square footage to showcase a limited
selection of furniture in various corners of a Whole Foods.

~~~
ghaff
Showrooming any significant amount of furniture takes a lot of room. At that
point you might as well have a separate store in the right location which may
or may not be the same setting as the high-end grocery store. And, at that
point, you've just reinvented the furniture store.

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javitury
The article compares how difficult is it to ship sofas with shipping
mattresses. However you can order online rolled and compressed mattresses for
~60€ that are the size of a thick pillow. Once the plastic wrap is removed it
will unroll. Then wait 24h and it will grow to its full size.

~~~
_puk
Non spring, memory foam mattresses compress surprisingly well. Bigger than a
pillow. Still weighs the same regardless of dimensions though.

Anecdotally, I had a fantastic experience ordering one through Argos (UK brick
and mortar catalogue store that is finally getting its act together online),
same day delivery on a Sunday, fit the bill of "I need a cheap mattress
tonight".

If I didn't need it same day, then there is no way I'd buy something as
subjective as a mattress online..

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alistproducer2
Who are these people buying sofas, mattresses, pillows etc online? Bedframes,
end tables, storage? Sure. Amazon knows what's up and realizes it has to have
some form of brick-and-mortar to sell goods that [normal] humans will never be
comfortable buying sight unseen.

~~~
eli
Who would ever buy a book online without being able to leaf through its pages?

~~~
KGIII
The two are very different. With a book, you have a reasonably known quantity
and it's much easier to ship it back. I'm half convinced people keep IKEA
furniture because they can't figure out how to get it back in the box.

~~~
fullsailor
You don't necessarily need to disassemble and return it in the box. I bought
and returned two bedside tables (HEMNES) recently. I only constructed the
first and was unhappy with how it looked once it was in my room. They accepted
the returns no questions asked.

~~~
KGIII
Has that changed? I know several who have complained about needing to return
it in its original packaging. At least I'm pretty sure it was IKEA that they
conplained about - and there have been several.

I'll defer to you, as I haven't actually even been in one, personally.

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elchief
I bought a bed from Wayfair. It was inexpensive and is fine. Except FedEx made
me help carry it up to my apartment, because it was too heavy for the driver.
I'm a large healthy male, but I can't imagine my mother doing that.

~~~
j2bax
Yeah, they really shouldn't deliver anything their driver can't get at least
to the door. I doubt if their insurance policy covers injuries that might
happen to a customer helping move a package from the truck to the dwelling.

------
philfrasty
There was an article the other day here in multiple German newspapers that
IKEA will start selling through shops like Amazon and Alibaba besides their
own ecommerce presence. If I remember correctly they mentioned that IKEA has
twice the margin compared to all other competitors. They also mentioned that
the biggest problem in the delivery process seems to be damage to these bulky
items.

[1][http://www.handelsblatt.com/unternehmen/handel-
konsumgueter/...](http://www.handelsblatt.com/unternehmen/handel-
konsumgueter/onlinehandel-ikea-verlaesst-das-moebelhaus/20435896.html) (can't
find the exact print-article I read...)

edit: grammar

~~~
AJ007
Every time I've ordered from IKEA the items have been damaged. Fortunately it
has been minimal and they are so cheap it doesn't really matter.

This is an example of where you want an item to be shipped a single time.
Amazon has a problem where big items can end up looking like they've been
shipped two or three times, which of course increases the chances of damage.

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marmalade92
I cannot disclose the process of "proof checking" and quality checking in
Wayfair but lets say only less than 10% of their products are validated.

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buckhx
Just got one from Joybird. The swatch samples are a big plus. It definitely
creates some anxiety not knowing how things will actually play out though.

~~~
WillPostForFood
How do you like it? Their products look great online, but have never seen one
in person.

~~~
buckhx
Happy with the build quality and comfort so far. The color itself surprised me
even after seeing the swatch in person.

------
emodendroket
I bought a mattress from Amazon and it was fine. I probably wouldn't have
considered it if it weren't so much cheaper than local alternatives though.

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dogruck
Reminds me of furniture.com's high profile failure -- worth reading about.

In addition to the dot com madness, furniture is expensive to warehouse and
ship.

