
The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed] - rythie
http://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/417952/bf6a55b67170ff0e/
======
acangiano
A few thoughts:

* This is one of the most factual, well written articles that I've encountered on the subject.

* It's just sad to see socially awkward people manifest their sexual frustration in this manner. And it's even sadder to see that the few women we have in our profession feel threatened at conferences. The overwhelming majority of good people need to intervene to interrupt any form of harassment towards anyone and above all report them to whoever appropriate.

* It's important to remember that sexual harassment is not simple unwanted attention from someone you find unattractive. magamiako deleted his comment, but he was right on the money when he said that certain actions will be interpreted as innocuous flirting if the person perpetuating it is attractive, and as harassment if their are not. It may not be PC to say this, but it's important to distinguish unpleasant, but fundamentally innocuos flirting from awkward people, from bona fide sexual harassment like groping or inappropriate touching. The latter must be eliminated from tech conferences.

* Sexism and unprofessionalism can be avoided without being prudish about the content of your presentation. This is a slide I used in one of my Italian presentations. The title reads "Eye candy is important": <http://grab.by/grabs/bd8b294c0aa850b4b577012a258979a3.png> (Actual slides here: [http://www.slideshare.net/antonio.cangiano/tu-vu-fa-lamerica...](http://www.slideshare.net/antonio.cangiano/tu-vu-fa-lamericano-startup-in-italia-e-nel-mondo-1428557)). This was just after the "CouchDB performs like a porn star" scandal, and several women at the conference complimented me for pulling it off without objectifying anyone.

~~~
idm
"It may not be PC to say this, but it's important to distinguish unpleasant,
but fundamentally innocuos flirting from awkward people, from bona fide sexual
harassment like groping or inappropriate touching."

Sexual harassment includes the comments like the "how much for a sexual
favor?" example. That constitutes bona fide harassment.

Here's my example from the last 2 years. I'm blanking on the conference now,
but there was a live IRC session running on the overhead, and each time a
question was asked by a woman, IRC would be filled with lude and aggressively
sexual remarks. It was totally uncomfortable! I think this situation qualifies
as bona fide sexual harassment.

Touching or groping someone in a sexual manner is assault (at least it can be
in the US.) It's so far beyond mere harassment that it's not the point of the
article...

EDIT: for clarity...

~~~
callahad
Are you perhaps thinking of Ian Bicking's "Topics of Interest" talk [0] from
PyCon 2009? It definitely veered into the uncomfortable, but there was some
reasonable handling of the situation during the talk, IIRC, and was definitely
a catalyst in the PSF adopting a formal diversity statement [1] and trying to
be encourage inclusivity in the community.

[0]: <http://us.pycon.org/2009/conference/schedule/event/76/>

[1]: <http://www.python.org/community/diversity/>

~~~
idm
Yeah, that's the talk I was thinking about.

UPDATE - after watching it again, they handled it pretty well.

------
btilly
Ah, yes.

I remember once casually joking at a get together, _Someone needs to tell ESR
that he's not God's gift to women._ When everyone was done laughing, it turned
out that both women present at the table had actually been propositioned by
ESR. (And had turned him down.)

A small minority of men cause the vast majority of the problem. Unfortunately
it doesn't take many to create a real problem.

~~~
robg
_A small minority of men cause the vast majority of the problem. Unfortunately
it doesn't take many to create a real problem._

This seems like the most important point. Moreover, it's critical that all men
who see and hear of such things work to stomp them out. If individuals don't
have the social skills on how to woo, it's a topic for personal discussion.
Dating isn't hard if basic respect is the first item to be debugged.

It makes me think of pg's nerd essay and with having just found the fantastic
TV show _Freaks and Geeks_. Sexual socialization ripens when we're most
vulnerable. If those hurts are carried into adulthood by otherwise successful
people, we need to work as a community to help our friends and colleagues
along.

EDIT: For a more positive final note.

~~~
guylhem
here a copy of an email I sent after reading that article. It's not only guys
hitting girl, it can take may other forms. The problem is, being mostly
outcasts, we lean to tolerate untolerable behaviour.

\--

Following an HN link, I read your article today on LWN
<http://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/417952/bf6a55b67170ff0e/> and it rang a bell.
There's an event I remember from a conference in LSM around 2002 IIRC in
Bordeaux, France where I was part of the org team and giving a couple of
conferences. It is way more social than most other conferences I attended at
that time - in fact, it's now the only conference I keep attending. Everyone
is housed on university dorms, the conferences are given in a university, and
many social events occur during the conference.

There's a big "dinner night" which I can only compare to the dinners in Harry
Potter - long lines of tables, everyone seated to eat but also demoing some
technical stuff time to time.

Anyway, that year the dinner was preceded by a cocktail. We were all enjoying
french wine and appetizers, when a guy grabbed a bottle from the table next to
which we were standing and started running around with the bottle in his
hands. I thought this was a playful way to show its running skills, and back
then since I enjoyed running too, I started running after him, caught him and
started laughting. When I asked him as a prize for my win, with a smile and in
a non threatening way, to share the bottle with the rest of us, he suddently
turned weird. There was 2 or 3 people around, and he started telling about us
about growing in Illinois, having had bullet wounds, knowing how to defend
himself, and finally threatening violence.

It was so weird. I didn't know what to do at that time. I let it slip over as
the actions of some socially awkward guy. Now if something similar was ever to
happen again, after reading your paper I would act very differently -
including clearly stating that he should apologize, that such behaviour is not
acceptable, and if he thought he could get away with it, as part of the
organisation team I would do my best to have him expelled from the conference
at once - not the next morning, but right now. And if that could not be made
to work with the rest of the team, I would call the police and them deal with
him.

It did strike me as odd, because I've been attending that conference since the
beginning, 10 years ago, and never noticed something like that again. I went
to the OSCON, Linux World and various others I can't remember ATM, in north
and south america, but this is the only example I have.

Yet I'm sure the guy had the potential to scare away many other guests. I am
forwarding this message to the organizers , along with a link to your original
article to make sure a policy get enacted against unacceptable behaviour by
guests.

~~~
rue
You realise that your actions, as described, can be construed as rather creepy
and that maybe _you_ should have apologised?

~~~
guylhem
(Some details I forgot to say: the cocktail was in big garden. it was summer
time. people where waiting around a table to have their glasses refilled)

Please enlighten me.

I have 2 scenarios - either he stole or he was playing tag. If he played tag,
threatening is wrong.

If he stole, what exactly should I have apologised for ? \- letting him steal
from an open bar ? \- letting him run away with what he stole ? \- daring to
catch up with him ? \- smiling to him ? \- asking him to fill the empty
glasses of the people around him with the full bottle he stole ?

For god sake, he was no hobo but a kernel hacker invited to a conference!

I believed it was a dare - like playing tag. Maybe he did believe otherwise -
but why exactly would you take a full bottle from an open bar and run around
laughting?? But when confronted I repeat _in a non threatening way_ , why try
to escalate instead of going back to normal mode and sharing with the folks
having empty glasses around?

I mean it's an open bar. You are not paying per drink, but that's not a reason
to grab a bottle and run away or like come with a big back and fill it up as
in a supermarket.

That's rude. Following up with threats of violence now crosses my line of "non
acceptable behaviour".

~~~
sedachv
How did you "catch" him? If you grabbed onto him a certain way it could have
been a trigger for PTSD behavior from a similar thing someone did to him in a
fight or something.

I encountered a person with very similar behavior at a party once. There was a
bunch of horsing around in a mosh pit sort of thing and this other guy grabbed
onto him from behind. He flips the other guy over his back and slams him onto
the floor so hard the other guy's ankle literally breaks in two.

Be careful with doing things that may potentially be seen as aggressive to
other people, your story could have turned out worse.

For the record, the guy with the broken ankle wasn't angry about it, and
there's now a pretty cool photo of the broken ankle on the Internet (I mean it
literally got broken in two - his foot was fully separated with the bones
sticking out). I talked to the PTSD guy about it later. He was defensive and
wanted to kick my ass at first, then he also told me about the rough things
that happened to him, and then we shared some drinks. He was on ok guy
otherwise.

In your case I'm not sure trying to get the guy kicked out would have been the
right thing to do. It would have probably escalated a situation that he didn't
intend on creating and wasn't consciously responsible for. Handling it so that
the guy would have calmed down instead of threatening people would have been
better for maintaining decorum and for helping the guy get over his PTSD.

~~~
guylhem
Honestly I can't remember about how. I think I might have tapped twice on his
shoulder but I'm not sure. Anyway it was during the following conversation
that it happened - when I asked to share the wine and that I remember quite
well.

The situation you describe looks like an honest mistake to me - being grabbed
from behind is weird. I wouldn't blame him for reacting and hurting the
grabber while he was simply slamming him onto the flow. Bad things happen.

But later on, the guy is still threatening you? To me, the honnest mistake
apology is gone. PSTD my *ss - he's abusive. I wasn't there and can't say for
sure but to me that's totally different.

~~~
sedachv
Oh no, he was doing it totally indirectly - like, sizing me up while being
defensive. I guess that's not being threatening, but only after the
interaction I realized that he was really preparing a plan for how to kick my
ass in case I did anything wrong, until I calmed him down. It was also pretty
appropriate for the setting.

------
gyardley
The gender imbalance at open source conferences means that the small
proportion of men throughout society that harass women have a much smaller
pool of targets to choose from.

The result - while open-source conferences might have the same amount of
harassment per male attendee as any other conference, the percentage of female
attendees affected by it is much higher.

This creates dramatically different perceptions. As a male, I haven't seen any
more sexual harassment at tech conferences than I have at academic conferences
on Russian history, so it doesn't feel like there's much of a problem. But
from the female perspective, the situation looks like an epidemic.

I have no solution to this unfortunate situation. Perhaps open source
conferences should ban alcohol, so everyone can stay properly inhibited. This
hardly seems fair to those of us who enjoy having a beer and can do it without
molesting others, but a minor inconvenience to the majority is usually
acceptable when it prevents a devastating experience for a minority.

~~~
cosgroveb
Or perhaps instead of banning beer they should adopt non-harassment policies
which are enforced and make sure that they respond to complaints swiftly?

Beer doesn't make people creeps... Their personalities do.

------
JonnieCache
The thing that shocks me is that people seem to describe so many of these
incidents, yet they just seem to have passed by with little fallout. At least
none was described in the article.

In most circles of independent minded, proactive people (like those in the OSS
scene) that I have moved in, such blatant acts of sexual assault would lead to
a massive commotion, probably violence. How can you walk up behind a stranger
in a public place full of your peers, grab them on the ass and proposition
them for sex without getting something broken over your head, or at the very
least being shouted and screamed at?

Sounds like people need to be more willing to stand up for themselves and
their friends, to more clearly establish group norms of what is and isnt
acceptable.

Articles like this are very depressing to me as a young idealistic developer
who sees the open source world as a progressive and egalitarian model for how
to live our lives.

~~~
Tichy
"without getting something broken over your head"

What is the point of getting into a potentially life-threatening situation
just to teach a jerk a lesson?

As for less drastic responses, I agree that the best way to enlighten people
would probably be when caught in the act. It seems unlikely that "photograph
upskirt guy" is reading this article and just now it dawns on him "maybe I
shouldn't have been doing that".

~~~
JonnieCache
I'm not advocating breaking things over peoples heads. I'm saying that I'm
shocked that the heads of said upskirt photographers havent been used to break
anything yet.

It shows a level of restraint that is certainly morally commendable, whether
it has benefitted the community long term I am not so sure.

> What is the point of getting into a potentially life-threatening situation
> just to teach a jerk a lesson?

What is the point of getting into a potentially life-threatening situation
just to be on the other side of a street? Your question is tautological.

~~~
Tichy
Cracking a bottle over someones head could escalate (and land you in jail
anyway).

~~~
hugh3
I know I'm at the risk of taking an offhand turn of phrase too literally here,
but just in case anyone is ever tempted to break a bottle over someone's head
like they do in the movies: don't. Glass bottles are surprisingly strong, and
breaking one over a slightly springy surface like someone's head requires a
very forceful blow which could cause serious injuries. And that's before we
get to the broken-glass-going-everywhere problem.

If you _do_ ever need to deal appropriately with some pervert taking upskirt
photos, I recommend putting him in a headlock and getting a couple of other
guys to help you wrestle him to the ground, where they can hold him down while
you lecture him on the subject of good manners and appropriate behaviour.

~~~
sliverstorm
Breaking glass bottles over heads mostly happens in old westerns and that sort
of thing. Is it possible glass bottles of the time were more fragile?

In other news, I love the image of a cordial lecture on good manners and being
polite to women directed towards a guy in a headlock on the ground beneath me.
Hopefully I'll have the guts to do it if needed.

------
seanc
I couldn't get over how powerful the message was when presented in clear
technical language. By articulating the problem in a simple factual manner and
offering specific concrete solutions, some of which are already under way, she
makes it impossible to dismiss her concerns.

The medium is the message I suppose.

I wonder if this style, applied to this issue, is powerful only for technical
people, or it it would be equally compelling to other groups.

~~~
sp332
I found this SO much more helpful than other essays and blog posts on
harassment I have seen lately (and I've been looking around a lot). I think we
can relate to this better because we share some mental and social structures
with the writer. Its a lot easier to relate to her though patterns, and the
suggestions seem both desirable and realistic.

I doubt other groups would find this so compelling, because a lot of
intelligent, engaged, perceptive people have been writing about this for a
long time and I've never seen something like this from a non-technical writer.

------
rb2k_
What annoys me is that the article talks about a "problem of a sexualized
environment", but the [post](<http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/418/>) that is
being refered to describes things like this:

> I lay across the bed, sat on laps, generally tried to squish in to any
> available space and get time to talk to all the fabulous people thronging
> the place. [...] I had a few drinks. I was wearing a skirt of such a length
> that I had cycling shorts on under it to make me feel more comfortable
> getting up on stage and dancing. I had been flirting with a couple of other
> boys at the party.

Way to be professional...

~~~
achompas
Your comment blames the victim. Don't do this.

Whether it's a professional networking event or a fun, crazy, not-so-
professional party, no one should be treated in this manner. No matter her (or
his) behavior or the atmosphere. Period. Also, she mentioned "sitting on laps"
because there was no room in the party, and people have a right to flirt
without being, uh, sexually molested.

Finally, the linked article cites this as _one_ example. There are many
others, like when the author

 _organized a group outing to a pub, only to have one of the invited workshop
attendees grab my ass while I was having a completely normal conversation._

(EDIT) sp332 points out that GP is discussing the environment at these events,
but we're operating in shades of gray here.

The author talks about how the attitude towards women at these events is
"institutionalized sexism." That is, people hired strippers etc. for years,
and that attitude still exists at conferences/events. Noira could've been out-
of-bounds by sitting in someone's lap, but we don't have any information on
whether she knows the person, has a relationship with them, etc.

Still, GP's comment implies that Noira's behavior fosters the "sexualized
environment" the author is complaining about. My point is that there's a big
leap from Noira's flirting to women being groped. (/edit)

~~~
sp332
Hang on, GP is addressing a different issue, not the groping. The article
complains that "sexualized environments" are bad, but Noirin sought out - and
actively participated in - a sexualized environment and had no problem with it
(the groping was a separate thing). Obviously there is a distinction to be
made, but it's not clear what the distinction is...

~~~
robg
A party isn't a "sexualized environment". An orgy is. Let's be perfectly clear
that there's a huge difference between the two. People go to parties for all
sorts of reasons.

Look guys, women flirt to signal interest. You can never assume anything more
than that is intended. It's not fair to them and you'll look foolish (or
worse) if you go too fast.

~~~
yummyfajitas
In that case, the author of the article is also wrong. There are no public sex
acts, so open source conferences are similarly not sexualized environments.

~~~
achompas
A party isn't a sexualized environment unless there's some overtly-sexual
influence. Similarly, open-source conferences are completely tame until the
organizers hire strippers. And strippers are as "sexualized" as it gets (well,
except for orgies or prostitutes).

~~~
jules
Strippers are of course ridiculous to have at a conference. I can't even begin
to imagine how anyone could think that it's a good idea.

However, read the proposed policy:
[http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/index.php?title=Conference_ant...](http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/index.php?title=Conference_anti-
harassment_policy)

> We do not tolerate harassment of conference participants in any form. Sexual
> language and imagery is not appropriate for any conference venue, including
> talks. Conference participants violating these rules may be sanctioned or
> expelled from the conference [without a refund] at the discretion of the
> conference organizers.

Sexual language is forbidden. I think we can agree that this too, is
ridiculous.

~~~
enneff
I agree it sounds ridiculous, but now I am having a hard time thinking of an
appropriate example of sexual language at a tech conference. These rules set
clearly defined boundaries that even the most tactless, socially inept people
can understand and abide by.

~~~
jules
A joke perhaps? It is ridiculous also because the punishment is far too
severe.

~~~
enneff
A sexual joke would be appropriate? Not IMO.

------
alexh
This happens in a lot of organizations.

One that I think is most relevant is CUSID( Canadian University Society for
Intercollegiate Debate )

It was very much an organization which had a problem with women feeling pushed
out, harassed, and uncomfortable. The result of that was that very few women
were getting involved or staying involved.

In 2001 they decided to do something about it. They had a long discussion, and
implemented a very strict policy about offensive conduct. You can see it here
[http://www.cusid.ca/documents/official-documents/cusid-
code-...](http://www.cusid.ca/documents/official-documents/cusid-code-of-
conduct-by-law/)

The TL;DR; of it, is that every tournament is obligated to have an
approachable "Equity Officer" as well as an anonymous way of submitting
"Equity" complaints. These are comments on things that made someone
uncomfortable, feel offended, or feel harassed. The equity officer then takes
action, at their discretion, usually informing the offender that what they did
was not cool, with no tangible punishment. Sometimes ignoring the complaint.
Or in rare cases, taking drastic action against an individual.

Having been at the receiving end of two complaints, they take this policy very
seriously. There is a very vocal group that believes that the policy is
harmful, because it is too restrictive. There is another group that feels it
is necessary and should get stronger. It is a political debate, and the two
groups keep each other in check, at the current level.

The IMPORTANT result. In 2001, very few women were involved, particularly in
upper levels of the community. This year, female involvement has risen to the
point that fully half of the 32 finalists in the BP Nationals held two weeks
ago, were female.

There are still issues, and a new discussion is being had on refinements to
the policy. The point is that confronting the problem head on, did a lot of
good. Particularly the point of having a formal way to complain and have the
offensive parties made aware of the inappropriateness of their actions, and
hold them accountable.

------
theophani
I've [only] been to three tech conferences. The only "sexism" I observed was
excessive delight: "Oh wow, a woman!" which I hardly consider harassing. No
one meant disrespect; rather the opposite. Possibly offensive is the notion
that it would be a surprise to find me there at all. I might say something
similar to a man at a needlepoint conference.

Yes, I got sexual attention, but only in a social context, and nothing
inappropriate. I've also gotten "Let's be friends!" attention from people,
including other women. In other words, we are there to meet people who share
our interests, on a social as well as professional level.

~~~
follower
> The only "sexism" I observed was excessive delight: "Oh wow, a woman!" which
> I hardly consider harassing.

FWIW some people would consider that unwelcoming/harassing--I think the term
is "othering". i.e. what's treated as important is not the person or their
skill but their gender.

And, yes, it can be annoying for guy in a "traditionally female" domain as
well.

~~~
orangecat
And this is where harder-core feminism can devolve into "everything men do is
wrong". Notice that a woman is a woman and you're
patronizing/harassing/"othering". Treat her as one of the guys and you're
being deliberately exclusive and maintaining a boys club.

~~~
follower
What you present is a false dichotomy.

Have you considered treating people as people?

See someone (whatever the gender) at a tech conference? Talk to them about
tech. Simple.

------
masterponomo
I'm sure this will sound sexist as well, but the chivalrous guys far outnumber
the jerks. If someone crosses the line, by all means call the cops but also
consider making an immediate and loud protest, and you might get help from an
ad hoc group of temporary big (or little) brothers. A black eye and split lip
might be the quickest way to teach some of these guys the right way to act.

~~~
evilduck
While emotionally appealing, the problem with that type of "chivalry" is that
you may get to enjoy the sights and sounds of your local county jail. Unless
there's a couple of very helpful witnesses to the catalyst behavior, you're
going to get slapped with an assault charge, moreso if it was verbal sexual
harassment you started a fight over, or just so the original assailant can
save face regarding the situation.

I'm not advising that you never come to someone's aid, but be careful before
you commit a misdemeanor crime based on someone's claim, especially when
alcohol may be involved.

~~~
masterponomo
True. The black eye and split lip idea was wishful thinking. Perhaps a number
of people showing up and glaring at the bully, or at least getting between him
and the victim, would suffice.

------
geedee77
I think this is a good article and a great reminder to us all about the
underside to the world. I do want to say, though, that the 'men' (and they are
only described as such due to their gender) in this story are a very small
minority that you would find in any group of people.

I'm not so naive to say that sexism doesn't exist in our industry, because it
clearly does, but I would say that the vast majority of people would neither
encourage or stand for any sort of sexism, whether overt or not.

I think it is tempting to create a link between the stereotypical 'geek' - who
is a guy that lives in his mom's basement and never meets women - and the sort
of overt sexism and abuse as described in this article, but that is dangerous.
That stereotype no longer exists, if it ever did, and there will always be
men, from whatever industry or walk of life, who view women as objects and not
equals. We need to work on this attitude in every walk of life, not just in
the tech world.

~~~
ErrantX
Indeed. In fact that stereotypical geek has, I think, never been the one to
pull of these sorts of overt sexual advances (so the link is/was an unfair
one).

But because the industry is so female light a (relatively speaking) large
proportion of the women in it _have_ been propositioned or assaulted by the
more forward members of the group.

~~~
follower
> In fact that stereotypical geek has, I think, never been the one to pull of
> these sorts of overt sexual advances (so the link is/was an unfair one).

But if the people at these conferences aren't "stereotypical geeks" then who
are they?

------
Yaggo
Wow, I'm truly shocked. I mean, it's 2010. Apparently there are minority of
people how can't behave and ruin the reputation of the whole community.

> Later someone was caught taking up-skirt photos of my friend's partner.

Would be interesting to know if he was kicked out of the conference, and
whether the harassment cases were reported to authorities / organizers.

~~~
nkassis
Yeah I had the same reaction. Someone doing that should be reported to the
police.That's just plain wrong.

~~~
sp332
(not rhetorical or trolling) What will the police do to help?

~~~
alextp
Hold him, have a talk with him, let him go. This usually shakes people up and
is completely legal

------
follower
While I'm pleased to see this article on HN, is it appropriate to use a
"subscriber link" in a public forum like HN?

~~~
unwind
Yes, that is exactly the purpose of LWN's subscriber links. It lets
subscribers share content with non-subscribers in a "controlled" manner, which
I guess means LWN can track usage and so on. I think it's awesome; thanks for
sharing, rythie.

See their FAQ: <http://lwn.net/op/FAQ.lwn#slinks>.

~~~
follower
I guess I should have RTFF. :)

"Where is it appropriate to post a subscriber link? Almost anywhere. Private
mail, messages to project mailing lists, and weblog entries are all
appropriate. As long as people do not use subscriber links as a way to defeat
our attempts to gain subscribers, we are happy to see them shared."

Thanks for pointing that out.

------
viraptor
There is an interesting part to some of those stories... kind of captured in
some of those paragraphs. For example "If I go to CES in Vegas I go with the
understanding that porn is part of the business of that conference". Many
gamers' expos would have naked girls with game logos painted over them if they
could get away with that.

Also, have you lately been to a students' club? In some places (and not even
of the lowest quality) kissing and proposing sex to people you barely know is
pretty much a normal behaviour. (this happens from both genders)

Now you have lots of people coming out of that environment and expect them to
figure out by themselves that this is a different environment? Of course there
will be someone who doesn't quite get it.

It also doesn't help when in some environments women are ok with as much
attention as they can get. I've seen a couple of IRC channels of open-source
projects where there's a regular female user appearing there. Strictly no-
offtopic channels suddenly switch to 2h "what's new in your life in any
details you want" discussions between her and 10 random guys that includes
innuendos every once in a while. Again - do you expect those people to figure
out themselves that it's not the same environment?

I really don't think this is a problem "of open source conferences". It might
be something that manifests there more often than in other places.

------
StudyAnimal
That reminds me, what happened with the Florian Leibert scandal? Any word from
him since the event?

~~~
wyclif
What happened is that she called the Atlanta police, who found no cause to
charge him. End of story.

~~~
follower
[Citation needed.]

~~~
wyclif
<http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/418/>

~~~
maco
Yes, it says she went to the police. Where does it say the police didn't care?

~~~
wyclif
I didn't say the police didn't care, I said they didn't file charges. The
difference is instructive.

------
timelinex
As a general rule: Don't shit where you eat. Some of the incident she describe
are legit sexual harassment and others are a male trying to pick up a lady.
Don't do that ever where you work or have important business to attend[your
technique maybe lacking].

I Genuinely think this is not really a Geek problem. There is statistically
large number of people with sexual deviation. For instance, it is estimated
that between 3-9% of the population are Pedophiles[1]. At a conference with
about 100 people there maybe 3 persons there with a sexual deviation. But it
only takes one of those guys to approach all the women in the conference and
spoil the whole thing for all of us.

My suggestion is if ever you were to encounter a situation of sexual assault
report it immediately to the police[not the conference organizer]. I don't
want that guy who hits ladies on the bum to be walking around freely in
society. He would not be operating at Conferences alone.

As a side note to how important it's to report these things:"nonincestuous
pedophiles who molest boys had committed an average of 282 offenses against
150 victims"[1]. As I said previously, just one deviant can crash the party
for a whole lot of people.

[1][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia#Prevalence_and_child...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia#Prevalence_and_child_molestation)

~~~
brazzy
None of the incidents described carry any hint of sexual deviancy. The worst
of them are "just" cases of someone making unwanted sexual advances - being
(way) too quick to go beyond flirting and too slow to back off.

This _can_ be due to a lack of respect for women in general, but also due to a
mix of social ineptness and sheer desparation. And you can't tell me the
latter is not statistically more likely to occur in geeks.

~~~
timelinex
I think the my first paragraph pointed that out that there are two types of
things happening here. One guys aren't aware that they over steps some bounds.

But putting your hand down a females underwear and hitting someone's bum
unexpectedly. Normal people don't do that.

------
robryan
An interesting question would be if those men which did the wrong thing were
regulars to these conferences or new to the scene? From similar things I have
been to I just couldn't imagine a community in which the core regulars would
have anyone doing these kinds of things.

~~~
maco
I'm Mackenzie in the article. The guy who made the comment about why someone
else was agreeing with me...he wasn't new. I don't know about the guy who
grabbed/kissed me.

Going a little broader in the tech field... I know of some people in the
hacking/security community who are...well, when you're new to the scene,
you're warned about them. I can only think of one guy I was warned about, but
he's well known. I can think of two others I was told new guys to the scene
(particularly if fairly young) should be warned about, and those two are
around-since-phreaking-days levels of established and well known. Being icky
doesn't mean ostracism.

------
pbhjpbhj
>Cat says, "If I think an event organizer turns a blind eye to questionable
behavior I'll pass on the event."

I'm surprised that conference organisers would ignore sexual assault
particularly with the bad press it must bring - assuming that these women are
reporting the sexual assaults (someone fondling your genitals against your
express will is pretty clearly sexual assault IMO).

But then if the women assaulted choose not to report such things to the police
(I think the onus lies with them as opposed to any witnesses) how can the
conference organisers act? They can't assume an uncharged person is guilty,
can they?

------
STHayden
I've always been saddened by some of the vitriol that has come up on hacker
news when talking about women. But this seems like a pleasant conversation.

------
binspace
My personal experience is that tech conferences tend to encourage cliquish and
hierarchal (based on popularity and tech-sphere influence) behavior which
feels dehumanizing.

I think there is a common thread with my observation to sexual harassment at
conferences. When people relate to each other on a human (rather than
hierarchal level), people tend to respect each other more.

 _edit_

Women also bring greater social cohesion to groups.

[http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/09/100930143339.ht...](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/09/100930143339.htm?sms_ss=facebook&at_xt=4ca65e219f93ce34,0)

The fact that women are sexually harassed could be solved by having more women
at conferences.

------
lhnn
I get tired of women complaining about sexism in the startup/tech field.

Yes, ladies, you will be hit on a lot at a conference filled with mostly guys.
You are an attractive minority. Now, to the point:

\--- There is no excuse for physical assault. I can even _almost_ excuse a guy
going in for a peck, but grab-ass and worse are not cool. If you're going to
proposition a girl, do it with your wits and your words, not a firm, open
palmed slap on the behind.

On behalf of all young, healthy, mate-seeking males, I apologize for the few
who make us all out to be classless jerks.

\--- Of course, it can be argued that you shouldn't be looking to hook up at a
FOSS conference, but really... when ISN'T a single guy looking for a woman
with similar interests (inside and outside the bedroom)? This isn't a 'geek'
problem, it's a 'human' problem.

~~~
cturner
It's interesting that you agree with the points, but put your tiredness down
to the complaints of the affected women. Of the things on offer, that's an odd
thing to put your frustration down to. I think it would be better to be tired
of the guys who act like jerks and ruin things for everyone else.

~~~
lhnn
I was commenting as much on the recent deluge of 'sexism in tech is rampant'
threads on HN as I was commenting on the article. I was emphasizing that even
as someone now jaded by such complaints, I find this to be a valid article.

I also comment on how inappropriate groping a woman is; I would consider my
entire 3rd and 4th lines to be expressing frustration at immature male
actions.

I consider all sides of an argument, and for that, I will not apologize.

~~~
cturner
In your original post you said it was a human problem. Among social animals,
humans are unusually effective at avoiding being pushed around by selfish
males, probably due to communication.

So I think it's good to talk about it. If more people recognise the problem
then they're more likely to intervene next time they see it happen, and to
marginalise troublemakers. They're good outcomes.

~~~
matwood
_probably due to communication_

This is key at all times, not just in a post hoc analysis. If a guy and girl
are flirting and one takes it too far some of the responsibility does fall on
the other to immediately let them know. When this communication is ignored is
when there is a problem.

For example, I was out with friends one time at a club and was
talking/flirting with a couple different girls. At one point in the night one
girl simply grabbed my crotch. She was obviously intoxicated, but once I told
her that wasn't very cool she apologized and went on her way. We had been
flirting for most of the night, but any girl who does that and wants to hook
up the first night I meet them isn't a girl I want to hang out with.

------
rmc
A lot of complaints about sexism in FLOSS conference mainly refer to sexual
references, or (semi-)pornography. If you want to have a professional
conference, then yes you should have a 'no sex' policy.

However, are women really that anti-sex?

~~~
follower
In short, no.

You might be interested in reading:
<http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Sex_is_beautiful>

Also, don't assume that it's only women who object to sexual content in
technical contexts.

~~~
rmc
I read that article. It seems quite biased against the 'sex is beautiful'
idea.

------
calebgilbert
I guess the 180-degree alternative to "women being harrassed" is the the
Drupal community, in which a small, but very vocal, women run around and use
'women being harrassed' as a sledgehammer to intimidate and enforce their own
standards of values/behavior on anyone and everyone.

No one seems to mourn that kind of harassment. Until they do, I remain suspect
when I read titles like this. Based on experience I believe that as often as
not someone just needs to call the wahmbulance and/or quit using their gender
as a weapon of control.

I will add as a side note, and I have no idea if it pertains to this
particular article or not, but many (even most) of the women I have seen
complaining about 'being harassed' in the Drupal community are openly lesbian.
I could care less about someone's personal sexual choices in the bedroom, but
it does raise more questions about what is going on with many of these
'harassment' complaints, at least in my mind. There is something dishonest to
me about those who have sworn their life to not-include men, also
simultaneously want to tell all the men exactly how they are _allowed_ to
act/speak/think.

UPDATE: For the record I _do_ acknowledge the very real possibly/problem of
actual harassment. I do not wish my comments to diminish the seriousness of
those cases. Just sharing my experience of seeing 'harassment' complaints
being weaponized, and calling for some balance/sanity.

~~~
mambodog
Wait, so, because they're lesbians (so you say) it's not possible for them to
be sexually harassed by men? I don't follow your train of thought.

~~~
calebgilbert
It's about any women (lesbians and non-lesbians alike) not actually being
harassed, but rather just running around trying to enforce their own agenda on
the world. My bottom line is this - if I say something to someone and did not
mean any offense/harassment, did not consider it to be offensive/harassing -
and someone else still wants to cry about it, then f-*ck them.

I guess in the particular case of the particular lesbians I mentioned above -
they seem to be looking/seeking to find something, anything, that they can
hold up as harassment and persecute the shit out of someone. That's bullying
in my book plain and simple.

UPDATE: Maybe I'm ascribing too many personal motivations for their behavior -
all I can say that many/most of loudest voices in the Drupal community
regarding all things 'harassement' are lesbians. At the very least they have a
hair trigger response and get set-off by comments that their straight
counterparts do not.

~~~
wtracy
I've dealt with my share of reverse-chauvinism-disguised-as-feminism, so I
know where you're coming from, but consider what you just said:

"if I say something to someone and did not mean any offense/harassment, did
not consider it to be offensive/harassing - and someone else still wants to
cry about it, then f-*ck them"

You are the only one who gets to decide whether your actions are considered
offensive? Really?

I bet that the conference organizer who hired strippers didn't consider it
offensive, nor the presenters who show slides of bikini babes "to get
everyone's attention". That doesn't make those actions not offensive.

~~~
calebgilbert
Yes, actually - we all, at some point, get to be the final arbiters of
deciding whether what what we said was offensive or not. (which I suppose also
means that everyone else gets to decided to the final arbiter of whether
they're offended or not - a right some have proven time again that they're not
giving up)

So again - I guess my bottom line is, if I didn't mean to offend a person, and
they want to get offended and make a big damn deal out of it - they can go
right ahead. I'm not changing what I do just to keep up with the most offended
person in the room. :-)

~~~
bostonvaulter2
I'd like to give you a mantra that I try my best to live by. "Judge others by
their intentions and yourself by your actions". That is to say that other
people can and will interpret your actions in ways other than how you
intended.

~~~
calebgilbert
I do actually live by that myself, but there's also people who just can't give
anyone a break ever and want others to defer, defer, defer to their whining
and complaining. I allow myself to draw a line too. For every time there is a
season. :)

