
The Ketamine Chronicles, April 2019 - keypusher
https://humanparts.medium.com/30-years-of-depression-gone-3dffafabc7cf
======
empath75
I did a bunch of ketamine and mdma in the early 2000s. They’re miracle
substances and they changed my life in positive ways that I can’t even begin
to talk about, but they are not cures for depression. Eventually the effect
wears off and all of the stuff that bothered you before will start bothering
you again.

If you don’t figure out how to give your life meaning, the drugs aren’t going
to do it for you. They’ll give you time and space to do it, but you really
need to make the best of the opportunity while you have it.

This guy’s blog post sounds exactly like a hundred conversations I had with
people I met at raves. We all knew that it was making our lives better, but
most of us were broken people going into the scene and at best a lot of us
were slightly less broken coming out of it.

Someone I’m sure is going to say that it’s a medicine and not a party drug now
because a nurse is giving it and someone wrote a prescription, but it’s the
same drug with the same effect. I’m not saying that to be judge-y. I think
people should have a right to improve themselves or have fun anyway they want
to without hurting any body. Just that if this thing cured depression, there
would have been a whole lot of ravers that were permanently cured and I know
from personal experience that it isn’t the case.

I’d really hate to see people try this thinking they’re going to be happy and
be even worse off after the fog settles in again.

~~~
kaikai
Your anecdata doesn’t match up with current ketamine research. The protocol
for depression is really different than using it for a party drug. Same for
mdma for things like ptsd- it’s paired with therapy that helps you work
through things. You’re right that just taking drugs isn’t enough, but please
don’t discount medical treatment that changes the lives of many people.

~~~
empath75
Rubbing ‘medical’ on something doesn’t magically change how it works. And it’s
pretty much impossible to take mdma and not engage in talk therapy. I had
conversations that went from favorite djs to the time they were raped in
middle school with complete strangers. And then you go out and dance. I don’t
think a hospital is going to improve the situation much. It’s just a loophole
people have to go through to make it socially acceptable.

~~~
kaikai
What? Talking about hard or traumatizing experiences is NOT the same as
working through trauma with a trained therapist. It’s great, and it can be
helpful, but just talking about something is the first step.

Also, I don’t why y’all are acting like folks who use things like mdma and
ketamine in a medical/therapeutic context haven’t also used them
recreationally. It’s different, because the environment, intention, and often
the dosage are all different. You taking drugs at a party is not the same, and
using absolutist language to say otherwise when there’s actual medical
research that contradicts you is an odd choice.

~~~
scarejunba
Do therapists actually contribute? I'm sceptical. For me, I got so much of the
value from taking MDMA and just knowing my friends were around and actually
loved me. Ended so much anxiety. Between Molly and Acid and these folks, I
think I'm pretty much safe for the rest of my life.

------
whalesalad
This was written a month after the treatment ended. I would love to hear how
the author is doing now, because all of my research has conluded that this
therapy -- while really powerful -- does not make a lasting and permanent
change in your brain.

I would really like to give it a shot -- but for a couple thousand bucks for
the initial series of treatments, I would hope that the change is more
lasting.

~~~
callesgg
It holds for a few months. During that time you can get your shit together.
Try to figure out what is triggering the depression and try to change that
thing. If you fail you can just do it again.

~~~
sneak
In many cases, depression is not triggered by some external influence.

~~~
solinent
The issue with saying this is we should probably have many words for different
types of depression.

Probably not only split on this one variate (externally or internally
triggered), but it means that certain types of depression are usually
triggered externally and certain types not externally.

It's like saying that "in some cases, a broken leg is not triggered by some
external influence". Sure, you could develop some bone density issue and break
a leg when walking normally, so we tend to distinguish treatment of these
cases--we may recommend a more permanent solution for someone who is prone to
breaking their leg.

How can we even falsify your statement? To do so would require self-reports or
some sort of real-time 24/7 measurement of the brain, the first doesn't really
falsify anything, and the second is not very viable at the present.

Self-reports can easily lie. They also may simply not remember, or be in
denial.

------
cmrdporcupine
Long term use of ketamine can cause irreversible damage to the urinary tract.
I'm not how well it's been studied, and I doubt it's known how much and use
for how long causes this damage. It is best to be careful.

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4544340/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4544340/)

[https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160318090442.h...](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160318090442.htm)

[https://www.nursingtimes.net/clinical-archive/medicine-
manag...](https://www.nursingtimes.net/clinical-archive/medicine-
management/addressing-ketamine-bladder-syndrome-19-06-2011/)

~~~
0xdeadb00f
This is very true for long term recreational doses and is often overlooked by
many.

------
throw12345sss
I took twice, three times racemic pills and then a couple grams of esketamine
in five or six sessions, everything illegal.

Racemic was funny. Esketamine is extra-weird, I felt the movie on tv was real
and I was chatting with Antonio Banderas, an undercover CIA operative. Later
my body felt as a paper balloon. No K-hole though.

A year later: I haven't smoke weed since. I just got uninterested. No more
ketamine, but I'm considering buying again. For months after the binge,
alcohol didn't get me drunk, _that_ was weird. Anxiety, a little better. Block
was no better.

------
dundercoder
I’ve been on prescribed ketamine for over a year and I can’t even begin to
articulate the improvement I’ve made.

~~~
leoh
What is the protocol you are using (dose, frequency, method)?

~~~
dundercoder
1.85mg/kg injection IM once or twice a month in office, then 200mg sublingual
or 80mg intranasal at home twice a week. Improvement has been steady for over
a year.

------
mistermann
Any given document, or event in reality, can be read (interpreted) from a wide
variety of perspectives, often with completely contradictory conclusions.

Individuals reading this article from a purely logical, scientific materialist
perspective, may form drastically different conclusions than those reading
from the wide variety of different possible perspectives. And that's fine, it
is the nature of humanity. But it seems very plausible to me that an inability
(or _unwillingness_ ) of people to interpret ideas from multiple perspectives,
is not fine.

There are many problems in the world (yes, I know, this has always been the
case... _from a binary perspective_ , but that is only one perspective on it).
The world is complex, and getting more complex. Perhaps the manner in which we
currently evaluate the world lacks the dimensional complexity required to
manage it in a reasonably optimum way?

If(!) this was the case, what might that look like? What would discussions
about reality look like? Is it _possible_ that we might be in a situation
similar to this? How might we know?

~~~
mistermann
What that I've written is offensive or incorrect downvoters? You have a
_sense_ of righteousness, but do you have any _courage_? How do you know your
ideas are correct if you never put them to the test? Hiding in a mob seems
like a waste of something precious.

~~~
narag
I'm curious, how is your comment related to the article? Or in other words,
don't you think your comment could be posted in any other entry and would be
equally (ir)relevant? It's not that it's incorrect, more like it's kind of
non-sequitur-ish, as if you omitted a part of it that connects the comment to
what it's commenting on.

~~~
mistermann
My comment could indeed be posted in many other threads and be relevant, but
not equally relevant.

I felt this article did a well above-average job communicating details about
what alternate states of consciousness are like, and how it can fundamentally
change your thinking, in at least a semi-permanent manner. However, most of
the comments on the article seem to be written very much from a scientific
materialist perspectives, and are often utterly lacking in epistemic humility.

Take the very first sentence from the top voted comment in the thread:

>> I did a bunch of ketamine and mdma in the early 2000s. They’re miracle
substances and they changed my life in positive ways that I can’t even begin
to talk about, but _they are not cures for depression. Eventually the effect
wears off and all of the stuff that bothered you before will start bothering
you again_.

This is fairly representative of many comments. Some obvious questions:

\- how does he know this to be true?

\- it may be pedantically true that they aren't 100% cures on their own for
every single person, but might they get us 75% or more of the way there for
most people?

\- it's true that the effect diminishes over time, but do you completely
revert to the previous state? Can the improved state be maintained with
ongoing usage (something which is rarely disputed for mainstream
pharmaceuticals, but often seems to be considered unacceptable for
psychedelics)

>> If you don’t figure out how to give your life meaning, the drugs aren’t
going to do it for you.

This is another one of those comments that may be _pedentically technically_
true, if read very generously, but also very misleading. Might the
subconscious mind choose casual expressions like "do it for you" to maximize
persuasion, while minimizing opportunity for criticism ("hey, I was speaking
colloquially, man"). The next sentence _appears to_ undo much of the harm, but
_what impression is left in the mind of an unknowing reader_? Who knows. Does
it matter? I think it probably does, and maybe a lot.

I would argue that result of this style of speaking is a kind of
epistemological chaos - we are discussing substances that may finally offer at
least a partial solutions for much of what ails the world, but the status quo
aggregate opinion (~nothing particularly noteworthy to be seen here, just woo
woo, move along citizen) in most threads like this seems completely incorrect
to me. At least, there is a serious lack of epistemic humility - strong,
conclusive opinions, on topics where the facts are currently _unknown_ \-
literally. _And no one can admit it (that such things are unknown)._ To me,
this is a utterly surreal state of affairs, and it is incredibly frustrating
to experience this, and then open the next thread on HN and hear people
complaining about problem-of-the-day that could be fixed if group <x> would
"just" stop being "stupid". The irony is bitter sweet.

>> Someone I’m sure is going to say that it’s a medicine and not a party drug
now because a nurse is giving it and someone wrote a prescription, but it’s
the same drug with the same effect.

Again, _pedentically technically_ true _as written_ (maybe, if read
generously), but completely overlooks the essentially undisputed (among
knowledgeable people) notion of the importance of set and setting. Ignorant
and misleading comments like "not a party drug now because a nurse is giving
it and someone wrote a prescription" getting heavily upvoted kind of disgusts
me to be honest. I am of the opinion that that thinking like this, and the
people that support it, are preventing the world from improving. And most
likely, many of the people complaining about faults in the world are the very
same people who _refuse_ to consider alternative ways of thinking about
issues, and downvote anyone who makes such a suggestion.

These substances, and articles like this, are finally giving us some new
insights into possible underlying reasons of why people behave like they do,
and believe the things they do (anti-vaxx, climate change deniers, I have no
reason to be happy, etc), in spite of overwhelming and "obvious" (or so it
seems) evidence to the contrary.

And it seems if you try to point this possibility out to people, _they will
get angry at you_. What could explain these effects (of the substances), and
this behavior (~refusal to even consider certain possibilites)? How about
this: the human ego. The human ego often doesn't like to be disagreed with.
This is clear as day, _if one is willing to look_. But it seems like the ego
will only allow this on certain topics, almost as kind of a self-defense
mechanism.

> It's not that it's incorrect, more like it's kind of non-sequitur-ish, as if
> you omitted a part of it that connects the comment to what it's commenting
> on.

I don't think it's so much that it's a non-sequitur (it isn't), but perhaps
that it _seems_ (but actually isn't, _if one is willing to think_ , which is
my point) irrelevant (or blatantly obvious) to the degree that it is
considered useless. With any topic, if people refuse to use their minds (and
that very much is the case), there's a good chance they won't understand the
material. Mocking various out-groups for refusing to acknowledge facts and
think properly is a popular pastime on HN, but rare is the individual who is
able to even consider the possibility that they suffer from the very same
psychological affliction.

~~~
narag
Trust me, without reading this last comment, I couldn't have known what you
meant with the original comment. I tend to fall in the same trap, thinking
that people understand what I have in mind with minimal explanation.

~~~
mistermann
Ah, well thank you for your patience!

I wonder how often this is the case, where the shortcomings of language, the
medium, and many other things, result in incorrect perceptions of
disagreement, where none actually exists.

That's the kind of thing I wish people would be able to take away from essays
like this.

>> ...and began to understand, on an emotional plane that overshoots the
academic level at which I’d only previously understood this— that all that’s
come today comes from all that’s come before, and as all things must pass, so
must we always find ourselves fighting the same battles forever and ever,
until the lesson is learned.

>> I emerged from that realization inspired, empowered and with a newfound
sense of gravitas where rage and anger once resided. Where we are, now, as a
human collective, is further along on the continuum of progress, yet no closer
to achieving it. The moral arc of the universe is long, and bends toward
justice, but that bend is fraught with fractious regressions, pauses, and
misfires.

>> ...continuing for the next several paragraphs.

>> I began to confront things I felt I had forgotten. People I’d hurt. People
I’d wronged. People who’d hurt me. People who’d wronged me. Traumas of every
degree, gradient, and sub-genre stretching as far back as preschool. My
brother who severed contact with me five years ago. Friends I’d let down.
Bosses who’d fired me. Drugs I wished I’d never done. Drinks I wished I’d
never drank. Decisions I made and regretted. Decisions I never made and
regretted not making.

>> I was not scared — I gazed at them right in the eyes, and forgave them
right in the moment. I forgave myself, too. “It’s okay,” I told them. “You are
free.” And then they would leave, or I would leave. Determining who “leaves”
during a ketamine trip is a bit like trying to choose which half of the car
you want to drive while the other half is a boat. I rose in a grain elevator I
didn’t willingly enter, and I escaped the minus-world as it crumbled and
roared behind me. Safe.

And so on.

These sorts of sentiments seems potentially more productive than the "You're
wrong, no you're wrong, and stupid..." mode that much of humanity seems
stubbornly dedicated to currently, but then it doesn't seem clear to me that
everyone experiences these things in the same way, and many seem(!) opposed to
the very idea.

~~~
narag
This place seems a little less infuriating taken into context, much in the
"zen" spirit of the article that you quote.

Ten years ago I used to find tech news from other forums. The two more popular
were Reddit and Slashdot. Both had unfortunate trends that made discusion
tiresome to follow. Reddit had those pun threads in which everybody seemed to
compete to be the funniest guy in the room while Slashdot was the church of
the Free Software and Saint IGNUtius.

It was as if in any conversation that you tried to have, a bunch of laughing
teenagers making jokes, or a bunch of quasi-religious zealots took over.
Hacker News on the other hand was the forum for YC startup founders, with a
practical approach to the same subjects, so it was a welcome change.

Ten years later it has been slowly degrading. It's full of self-serious young
people that instead of making tons of jokes, frown upon any attempt of humour
and, instead of the classic FSF zealotry, we have the usual offline causes,
trying to shame everybody into thinking "the right way". If you take this
place as some kind of contest to defend the best ideas, you're going to be
sorely disappointed. Such place doesn't exist. It's enough that there's a
place where interesting ideas are at least presented as articles and some
comments.

About the drugs discusion, there has been a couple of topics here that may
explain the caution some of us have. One was modafinil. A few years ago a
bunch of articles were posted telling wonders about it. A guy said that he had
learnt quantum physics in an infamous article, other guy that his
procrastination problems had disappeared thanks to the drug.

[https://duckduckgo.com/?q=site%3Aycombinator.com+modafinil](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=site%3Aycombinator.com+modafinil)

You'll see that recent comments that appear in the search were starting to be
negative. Modify the search to show last years results. There is none. That
was a fad, people spent their money because what do you expect in a site like
this where everybody wants to be more creative, smart and procrastinate less?

Similar things are being said now about hallucinogens. Most repeated line is
that the experience is life changing. I dropped an acid more than 30 years
ago. It was spectacular, but I wouldn't call it "life changing" and I haven't
had the desire to repeat since. I don't feel like I have the right to
recommend against it because "do as I say, not as I did" doesn't seem like
honest advice. But I wouldn't tell anybody to do it, specially after I've seen
three acquitances to lose their minds because they abused LSD.

Ketamine seems very promising. But it's illegal, unless you want to spend big
dollars in it. The problem I see is: should we recommend a drug that will
probably be acquired illegally and taken in unknown sets to a bunch of people
that might be desperate to find something to cure chronic depression, burnout
or blocking? I'm sure you understand what could go wrong. I know what I would
do, but I know myself, I don't know what's in the minds of everybody reading
HN, so I would be very catious to create false hopes and real risks.

