
A study of ethicists finds they’re no more ethical than the rest of us - EndXA
https://qz.com/1582149/ethicists-are-no-more-ethical-than-the-rest-of-us-study-finds/
======
paultopia
This is consistent with a few previous studies along the same lines, but also
shouldn't be that surprising. Ethical _knowledge_ or _reasoning_ not only
isn't sufficient for ethical _behavior_ (weakness of will exists!), it might
not even be necessary. It's easy to believe, e.g. with Hume (more or less)
that we have a pretty good natural sense of right and wrong in day to day
behavior.

But this doesn't mean ethical philosophy is useless. We might have a pretty
good innate sense of what we ought to do on a day-to-day basis as individuals,
but there are lots more complex situations---in politics, in business, in
science (bioethics, e.g.)---where our innate sense of right and wrong leads us
to conflicting judgments or might mislead us altogether. Those situations are
where we need professionals. Not in asking whether we ought to steal candy
from babies or cheat on our spouses.

(Bias/credibility check: credentialed political theorist, has been paid to
help companies figure out ethical things.)

~~~
Judgmentality
How do you get paid as a consultant for ethics? Sounds like a really
interesting job and I'm curious how you found your way into this position.

~~~
paultopia
Not my main gig (which is professoring at the moment), but: sort of the same
way one does any kind of consulting thing: know people at companies that have
a problem that needs solving, and be known to have the relevant expertise!

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burfog
Missed the prime example: Eric Clanton

He taught ethics at a couple colleges in California. He evidently thought that
it would be ethical, in his properly educated professional opinion, to attempt
to murder people with different political views. Over multiple days and
locations, he bashed a half dozen people in the head with a heavy metal
bicycle lock.

[https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/may/26/eric-
clanto...](https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/may/26/eric-clanton-
former-calif-professor-arrested-in-vi/)

~~~
rudiv
The link says it was three people, during confrontations at/near a political
tally. I don't know if you're speaking from further knowledge and the link is
a preliminary report or something like that.

~~~
grandmczeb
It was seven people[1] over multiple separate incidents during protests at
Berkeley. The most famous video of one of the assaults is this one[2].

[1] [https://www.berkeleyside.com/2018/08/08/eric-clanton-
takes-3...](https://www.berkeleyside.com/2018/08/08/eric-clanton-takes-3-year-
probation-deal-in-berkeley-rally-bike-lock-assault-case)

[2] [https://youtu.be/9qKCl9NL1Cg](https://youtu.be/9qKCl9NL1Cg)

~~~
jeffdavis
Curious why that resulted in misdemeanor probation rather than felony with
prison time.

~~~
burfog
His violent actions are aligned with the prevailing politics in that area. He
is thus protected. The politics also go against a meritocracy, and this is
extended even to the court system. The merits of the case were less important,
while the values espoused were more important.

IMHO this is corrupt and is a path toward being 3rd-world country.

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droithomme
Thanks. There was a thread on HN yesterday about the benefits of a college
education. There was a subthread arguing that without going to a formal
college process of study of topics such as ethics and philosophy, a person
could not hope to become a moral person, and therefore, the implication goes,
college is not only necessary but fundamental to a moral society, and also
obviously graduates are more moral and ethical than non-graduates. This
argument that morality comes exposure to higher education and is thus an
imperative for civilization can perhaps be considered a modernist successor to
the argument that morality comes from exposure to one or another particular
religion and is thus an imperative for civilization.

Several people objected to these claims.

This study you post is a very good formal rebuttal. In the best case scenario,
where the person intentionally focuses on the study of ethics in college, it
has no effect on personal moral/ethical advancement.

~~~
mcguire
I disbelieve.

I apparently missed the thread yesterday, but I doubt anyone seriously
suggested that formal college classes were a requirement for moral behavior.
If they did, they're fools.

Higher education, philosophy, and ethics classes are beneficial because they
put the student in an environment where they can be exposed to a variety of
ideas, in an efficient manner. But, you cannot make a horse drink even if you
lead them to the water, and they'll find something to drink some of the time
even if you don't hold the harness.

~~~
darkpuma
Here is the thread:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19324670](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19324670)

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jorgesborges
Morality isn't supposed to be an intellectual edifice from which experts
expound rational arguments. It's a living practice. It's unsurprising to me
that the people who devote their lives to making useful distinctions between
words, or cooking up situations with babies and trains, aren't as moral as we
might think. There's a reason Jesus was more influential than Socrates.

~~~
hopler
Jesus (unwittingly) had armies killing and subjugating people in his name to
spread his influence, and promising impossible rewards. Jesus isn't popular
because people lived his practice.

~~~
jorgesborges
I'm admittedly not an expert in this area but my point is that Jesus didn't
write anything down or intellectualize his teaching: he led by example. That
was the foundation of his influence. The subsequent centuries of writing and
hermeneutics over his life and teaching is another matter entirely.

------
winchling
_> The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao._

[http://tao-in-you.com/lao-tzu-tao-te-ching-chapter-1/](http://tao-in-
you.com/lao-tzu-tao-te-ching-chapter-1/)

A lot of people say that _fantasy fiction_ has helped them learn morality. A
modern form of parables?

~~~
whatshisface
What everyone in this discussion seems to be missing is that the number one
source of moral failures is not trying. The inborn human conscience provides
so much ignored guidance that trying to help it out with books is pointless.
Instead, we need to be thinking about how to get people to put some effort and
sacrifice into having morals. It doesn't matter if you know one ethical truth
or ten billion if you are not willing to sacrifice anything.

~~~
astazangasta
Empathy is not inborn, it is taught. Ask anyone with a toddler. Also people
must be taught to broaden their circle of empathy to include foreigners,
animals, etc. The capacity may be innate but it must be shaped by education,
formal or otherwise.

~~~
whatshisface
Is it taught, or does it "grow in?" Toddlers don't get empathy training.

~~~
asark
I can't say whether it's what makes the difference or it's a natural
development, but they 100% for sure do. Both direct instruction and example
behavior.

~~~
whatshisface
There are many parent who never instruct their kids to care about other
people, and those kids turn out fine. The vast majority of what you have to
tell a todller is variants of "don't put that in your mouth," and sometimes
"stop hitting your sister." I've never heard of an admonition to "be more
caring." (Note: that sounds like a heartwarming idea unless you have met a
toddler before)

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_emacsomancer_
And physicists presumably aren't better at riding bicycles or playing
basketball than non-physicists.

~~~
mping
Doesn't really apply because you need a good physical condition to be better
at sports (besides knowing how the sports work), an ethicist doesn't need
anything to be more ethical.

~~~
_emacsomancer_
Ok, take more simply figuring out how balance yourself on a bicycle (rather
than anything like being a professional cyclist). Studying physics isn't
likely to make much difference in how long it takes you learn how to balance
on a bike and not fall over.

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salawat
_Not so fast!_

Any ethicist or philosopher who claims ethical or moral superiority in day to
day conversation is a bit like the Buddha you cross paths with during your
lifetime.

You brutally murder him, and continue on the road to true enlightenment.

What exposure to philosophical and ethical studies does for a person is to
open their eyes to the fact that, guess what? There's more than one way to
look at ethics, and none of them is necessarily any more correct than any of
the others (Except whatever one appeals most to the student, which may change
over time).

It also equips you with a framework for beginning to articulate and come to
grips with the unknown or inarticulable. It allows self-examination and can
lead to fairly non-intuitive discoveries over one's lifetime.

In short, it doesn't justify being a smug arse about anything, and you could
live life without it.

But honestly, where's the fun in that?

------
RickJWagner
Not surprising. Ethicists, preachers, politicians, software developers. We're
all human, and all subject to human frailty.

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otakucode
The cobbler's children always go shoeless. This sort of observation is that
old.

------
mcstafford
I don't believe that any widespread group (as a whole) tends to avoid
fallibility at an unusual rate. So psychologists aren't more sane, police more
lawful, judges more just ... People are people.

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apocalypstyx
Contemporary ethicists tendency to employ the terms ethics and morality
interchangeably may be the most unethical and immoral act of the profession in
general.

~~~
effie
Could you elaborate? What do you think the difference is?

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amelius
Could they be worse? The abuse in certain religious circles comes to mind.

~~~
ars
Rate in religious circles is not higher then in the general population. The
issues are about coverup and things like that, but that happens in all
organizations, it's not specific to religious groups.

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AlexTWithBeard
There are multiple studies ([https://qz.com/work/1170682/employees-at-
socially-conscious-...](https://qz.com/work/1170682/employees-at-socially-
conscious-companies-are-more-likely-to-lie/) being an example) which point to
existence of some kind of a "good deed pool" in humans. Once you've filled it
by doing your share of good stuff for today, you can relax and become a true
awful self.

For a lot of people doing something good (giving to charity, writing a post
condemning racism, saying a morning prayer) grants an indulgence to be nasty
for the rest of the day.

