
Children for Sale, 1948 - marvindanig
https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/4-children-sale-1948/
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frankbreetz
Here is a comment from the article (not me)

Cheri Hofstater JULY 20, 2018 Unfortunately I am the granddaughter of this
women. My mother, (Lana) was lucky enough to get sent to live with her
grandmother on a farm in Wisconsin. At the age of 12 or 13 I believe, was when
her mother came back for her. I remember my mom telling the story like it was
yesterday. Her mother loved to drink and play bingo, but with four new
children now she found it difficult to maintain her social life, so when my
mother was old enough Lucille went and got her for the sole purpose of
babysitting. At least that's my mother take on the situation. With no place
else to go, my mother stuck around and eventually married and had 7 children.
Me, I'm right in the middle. I don't remember much about my grandmother except
that she was a strong and demanding women, and I feared her. I remember my
half aunt's who were always wonderful to me and my siblings. My mother
eventually left her abusive and alcoholic husband and we moved away, never to
see them again. Until after my mom died that is. We reconnected, breifly, with
some of my mother's half sisters and there view of the situation is totally
different. Because of that we never really talked about the relationship
between my mother and grandmother, we were just glad to have the time
together. I suppose being raised by your mother and being given away by your
mother would have a tremendous impact on your opinion and thoughts about your
life and the people in it. My mother never seemed bitter or angry at her, just
afraid, of being hurt, I suppose. I thank God everyday for giving my mom the
strength to endure her life, as lonely as it was. I guess you could say the
pain, and or love, we receive throughout our lives doesn't have to dictate who
we will become. My mom was proof of that. Thanks for listening. Respectfully,
A tender soul.

~~~
thaumasiotes
> I suppose being raised by your mother and being given away by your mother
> would have a tremendous impact on your opinion

Yeah, that seems pretty clear. Although I don't see why the impact should
extend to your relationship with other random people.

My grandfather was given away by his mother a little before the Great
Depression, the theory being that she couldn't afford to keep him. (The other
two children were kept.) He understandably bore a grudge -- he never spoke
about her, and when she tried once, a long time later, to reestablish contact,
he refused.

But the only obvious candidate for a lasting impact on his relationships with
people other than her was his habit of assuring us "Remember -- your
(grand)father always loves you."

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raducu
Being abandoned is a primeval fear of every child. Actually being abandoned
has a tremendous negative and traumatic effect on a child.

Even not actual "abandonment", but emotional abandonment is the main culprint
for borderline personality dissorder. It will impact a person's emotional
stability and wellbeing, the way he is attracted to other people, his self
esteem and so on.

~~~
exolymph
BPD probably has a substantial genetic basis, although it's not implausible
that BPD-leaning parents are more likely to abandon or abuse their children.
(Not guaranteed, just more likely!)

Mental illnesses of all kinds, like virtually everything, are heritable. Of
course, environment can play into heritability, but it's like the IQ debate...
full of Culture War and the science of "why the brain does X thing" is
unsettled.

~~~
raducu
BPD probably does have a strong genetic substrate as well since 25% of people
diagnosed with BPD also have ADHD, at least that's what the psychiatrist that
diagnosed me with BPD told me when she handed me questionaires for ADHD.

I've researched a lot about BPD therapies and the most promising one -- Schema
Therapy -- models heavily BPD as being rooted in abandonment issues in
childhood -- and everything I've read rang like hitting a nail on it's head,
at least in my case.

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steve19
This story is so heartbreaking. I expected to see an old restored photo from
the distant past, and being sold by a slaver not a parent.

Sadly, this plays out today in many countries with parents or grandparents
selling children into sex slavery, with motives ranging from pure evil to
(still terrible) justifcstion of sacrificing one child so that the others can
be fed.

~~~
mruts
I mean, this is just adoption essentially.

Would it be more or less heart-breaking if they all starved homeless on the
street instead?

~~~
ReptileMan
It is "just adoption" if the kid is lucky. Otherwise it is horror story.

Edit: Also it was not done for the good of the kids, but for the good of the
parents. Which puts it into different situation.

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mruts
Over history, it seems like people disagree on the monetary value of children.
Sometimes people get paid for their children, and sometimes they have to pay.

Also the standard deviation of prices (in 19th century London and current day
Russia) is quite high. My wife’s sister is a professor who studies human
trafficking and has quite a bit of data on this sort of thing.

One unsurprising trend is that girls are significantly more value than boys:
they can potential do housework, cause less problems, and their sexual access
can be monetized.

~~~
Mirioron
I wonder how much of a role culture plays in this as opposed to economics. We
say that the reason kids worked in factories and were sold was due to economic
hardship, but most people wouldn't find that acceptable nowadays even when
they are going through economic hardship. I guess the reason why we care less
about the economic aspect nowadays is that we have enough social services that
will at least minimally take care of the kids if necessary.

~~~
Tsubasachan
Actually not so long ago countries like Sri Lanka and Colombia made a lot of
money providing "orphans" to couples who wanted children in Europe. Caused
quite the scandal.

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Ballu
Grand Daughter comment in comments section complete the story... (If she
really was her grand daughter).

~~~
pergadad
Thank you for pointing this out. Moving indeed, in particular how this pain is
passed on to further generations.

~~~
eee_honda
Every so often on HN someone recommends the book "the body keeps the score" by
dr. Bessel van der Kolk. Im a fan, so I'll do that here.

A chunk of the book talks about intergenerational transmission of trauma. The
rest of it is a fascinating insight into the mind-body connection. It's
Thorough and well worth the read.

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throw2016
The article mentions horrific abuse of 2 of the children including being tied
up in chains and forced to work and the rape and abuse of the other leading to
an unwanted pregnancy an being sent to a home for pregnant girls. And one of
the kids becoming violent and sent to prison.

This is clearly not the road to a civilized society. History shows all
cultures and religion dominated by stable societies and family structures
going back thousands of years, and while things like famines, war, epidemics,
slavery and others led to breakdown, desperation and widespread suffering they
cannot be passed as 'normal' in any age or gloss over abnormal human behavior.

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jacquesm
That's a horrific story. The historical nature of the photograph might soften
the impact a bit but there is plenty of nastiness going on today, even if a
sign like that today would be unthinkable.

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duxup
Just heartbreaking looking at those kids faces. No child deserves that.

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pizzapill
My step-grandfather grew up in a very poor part of south Germany. He was sold
by his parents at 7 years to herd sheep. That must've been ~ 1920. During WW2
he fought in Stalingrad and survived a Russian POW camp with maybe 10%
survival rate. He lived to become 98 years old. With half his limbs and organs
missing. A very hard life, but he was one of the happiest people I knew.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
When your life improves that dramatically it's hard not to be positive.

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gwbas1c
Just seeing the headline "Children for Sale" drove me into a panic. I could
never imagine selling my children. Perhaps if I was in distress I would give
them to someone willing to do some form of open adoption, and only until my
personal situation recovered.

The whole situation was formidably cruel.

~~~
taneq
> The whole situation was formidably cruel.

This is the natural state of the world. The fact that it's so abhorrent to us
now is a testament to how far we've managed to come.

~~~
serpi
The world is what we make of it. There is the shadow and there is the light.
Still I believe our natural state is that of love, before all concepts of
anything that is all there is.

~~~
mruts
Well, we can look at evolution on other animals to understand where we came
from at what the “natural” state of the world. And the answer is clear: the
natural state of the world is suffering, sex, and death.

I’m not sure how you could ever think that love is somehow the a priori
concept of the world. Do single-celled organisms “love”? What about insects?

The answer is no, and evolution tells us what this cruel world is all about:
propogation of genes through sex. We, as beings, are irrelevent: just hosts
for a game that is being played at a different level.

~~~
ripsawridge
Ridiculous. If the natural state of the world is "suffering, sex, and death,"
it's also joy, sex and birth. Sex is at least value neutral -- if you are
going to sandwich it between suffering and death I may as well put it between
joy and birth -- which are real experiences. Animals seem to experience joy,
to play, etc.

Animals also take care of their young, they often mourn those who died.

Plus, your incredulity at the thought of "love" between single-celled
organisms is without basis. Love is a subjective state which we can only
infer. We (well, some of us, not you I guess) think it's real because we've
felt it at a level to which to describe it as not real would do violence to
our conception of real/unreal.

And then we infer that it's felt in other organisms around us based on their
actions.

Now, a single-celled organism really doesn't have a great range of
"actions/behaviors" it can show us. Therefore we don't get to see it. This
says nothing about whether it's experienced or not.

~~~
mruts
>Animals also take care of their young, they often mourn those who died

Animals also kill their young on purpose, including people.

Do your cells in your eyes and in your butt love each other? If so, you have a
pretty flexible definition of love.

Of course love is a thing, but is a much more recent phenomenon than pain.
This is why it's much easier to feel pain, that in it is to feel love.

Humans and elements have a "S-shaped" function in which they rather avoid pain
than feel pleasure. Would you rather feel a lot of joy for an hour or not be
tortured for an hour? Most choose the latter: the stick is more powerful than
the carrot.

I think it's a little disingenuous to that animals feel "love."
Neurochemically, it's a little unclear as to what the feeling of love even is.
Pain, on the other hand, is quite clear.

Therefore, we can reasonably conclude that pain has been more of driving
factor of evolution than love. And then in it also follows that pain has been
more prevalent than love in the history of the world.

~~~
ripsawridge
There are subjective and unknowable states. The whole world is not inside your
head. By asserting that the cells in my butt can't possibly love each other,
you've made a pretty lifeless machine psychology that I don't have to accept,
happily. You can't even prove your idea -- I would like you to be aware you
are making a faith-based argument. Anyway, cheers. :)

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dasil003
How did she afford the professional sign painting?

~~~
truebosko
I read this awhile back, but it helps explain your question
[https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/7kiu0r/how_w...](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/7kiu0r/how_were_protest_signs_in_the_30s50s_us_so/)

~~~
Alterlife
From your reference:

> (If your question is more of a technical one: These signs weren't all
> individually hand-lettered. A professional lettering artist makes one copy,
> then the artwork is photographed and turned into a plate for silkscreening
> or lithography.)

Holy crap, was this so common they had it made produced like the baby on board
signs? :(

~~~
rangibaby
I'm guessing whoever made the sign arranged 4, CHILDREN, FOR, SALE words into
the horrid sentence

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hi41
>>Within two years all of the children pictures,

Is there a typo there? Should it have been - Within two years all of the
children in the pictures

~~~
cimmanom
Probably a typo, meant to be "all of the children pictured".

~~~
hi41
Yes. Your correction is better than mine. Thank you!

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sytelus
I have wondered if drive for mothering is powered by built-in gene
programming. If that was the case, I'd say there was possibly a mutation in
this case.

~~~
mruts
Mothering is about propogation of 50% of your genes. Your interests aren’t
fully aligned. In many situations, it makes sense to kill or get rid of
children, in order to improve the chances of future offspring.

Moreover, if the child is a girl, their reproductive skew is very low: it’s
highly unlikely she will produce more than 15 offspring in her entire life. So
it might make sense to sell your girls, and keep your boys.

Why, you might ask? Because in an ideal world, each boy could potentially have
thousands of children.

This, of course, is unlikely but we can look at history to just see how
reproductively successful a man can be. Genghis Khan in all likelyhood had
thousands of children.

~~~
sytelus
You are missing the point here, may be. Man could not be reproductively
successful without women. If a boy has thousands of children, there needs to
be corresponding women who can carry them.

~~~
mruts
Of course you need one mother per dad. But I’m talking about the skew of the
probability density function of the distribution. If I’m a sucessful man I can
get more than my “fair share” of reproductive access.

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ConcernedCoder
How/why is this even legal?

~~~
yitchelle
It's probably not, but that doesn't stop it.

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jotjotzzz
Initially, I thought it said "Chicken for Sale" and I was alright with that.

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excalibur
I thought this photo was hilarious until I realized it was serious.

~~~
dang
Please don't post unsubstantive comments here.

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hossbeast
Is this illegal today?

