
“Faking It Till You Make It” Is Disingenuous - charlesbai
http://www.charlesbai.com/faking-it-till-you-make-it-is-horrible-advice/
======
GrinningFool
> I never liked this quote because it implies being something that you are
> not, which leads to disingenuous behaviour.

I've always liked the quote, but I've also interpreted it differently than the
author has. Rather than "pretend to be what you are not", I view it more like,
"to be what you want, start being what you want and stick to it".

That is, start doing the things that it requires. Commit to it - these are the
things you do when you're alone as well as when others can see. Let it guide
your decisions - you're changing yourself, and that takes a lot of conscious
effort at first.

I consider that as 'faking it' because it feels unnatural - the new behaviors
feel like you're putting on act. As time goes on, this changes. Until one day,
you realize that you've integrated that thing you wanted to be into who you
actually are. [Or so it has worked out for me in cases that I've done it and
stuck with it...]

~~~
charlesbai
Ah I see, from this angle I can understand - the unnaturalness of new
conscious behavioural changes. But overall, that is just discomfort. If you
have internalized the values and your actions align with those values, I still
do not view it as "faking" it per say.

When learning how to swim for the first time, it may feel unnatural. But you
are not faking it. You are trying something new, and you have the chance of
failure (the source of the discomfort, possibly?) - but you are being true to
the task at hand

~~~
khedoros1
Swimming is something you _do_. "A swimmer" is someone you _are_. A swimmer
swims. If you can't already swim, you learn how to. But when you _can_ swim,
you aren't necessarily a swimmer yet.

I don't think it's about some particular skill, but more about an identity.
Taking on a new identity might involve learning some new skills, but those are
just the prerequisites to even successfully "faking it".

Put another way, it's more about establishing patterns of behavior. You start
off making decisions consciously, and maybe even with difficulty, like "I'm
going to get up at 6am, warm up, and swim 10 laps". And "I'm switching my diet
to complement my new exercise routine". They'll start out feeling novel, like
they're someone else's actions. Then eventually, they'll be your norm. They'll
still take effort, but of course you'll _make_ the effort, because "this is
just what I _do_ ".

------
nostrademons
"Fake it till you make it" is usually applied to situations other than the one
he describes. If you're _already_ an employee on some project, working on a
team that you trust and work well with, then sure, just ask your peers how to
do it. At that point, you've already "made it".

"Fake it till you make it" usually applies to "how do you _get_ to that
point?" If you're a fresh college grad with no particular accomplishments to
your name, how do you convince people that they should invest time and energy
teaching you the ropes so that you're even qualified to work on a team with
peers who you can ask for help? Because the default answer when a stranger
asks to pick your brain to get into a hot, highly-competitive field is usually
"Yeah, sure, maybe when I get around to it", if you get an answer at all. And
if you're asking for a _job_ , where they pay you money, then unless you've
carefully chosen a field where they're desperate for people regardless of your
prior background, you're going to have a tough time demonstrating value
without at least some form of "faking it", even if that's just networking
politely, cold-calling, and doing some basic research on the companies you're
applying to.

~~~
whatshisface
> "faking it", even if that's just networking politely, cold-calling, and
> doing some basic research on the companies you're applying to.

That's definitely not faking in any sense of the word!

Well, I've really heard it three ways. "Fake it till you make it," can mean
any of: \- Slightly untrue positive thinking will help you build up enough
confidence to get started. \- Present yourself to other people with the
confidence of someone who's already done what you want to convince them you
can do. \- Falsify your qualifications and dodge questions about what you've
done in the past, don't worry it never catches up with you.

I think 1. can work for some people, 2. works for essentially anyone in every
situation, and 3. is very, very false.

~~~
nostrademons
I usually see it used in the sense of 1 & 2.

3 _can_ work - I've seen a lot of people who get ahead, at least temporarily,
by blatantly exaggerating their contributions and competency. It's taking a
big risk, though, more than I'd be comfortable with in my own professional
life, and these people often flame out spectacularly when it catches up with
them.

------
dsp1234
_but its not an effective strategy for learning._

'Fake it til you make it' is about getting access to opportunities you
wouldn't generally have otherwise. It's not a learning strategy, so it's not
surprising that it's not an effective learning strategy.

------
michaelbuckbee
There's a different phrase that I think makes more sense: "Act As If".

People suffering from and trying to overcome Impostor Syndrome (the feeling
that even though you are doing good work and have made some big
accomplishments that you’re really an “impostor” at your job and people are
going find out) are somewhat endemic to startup and tech circles.

I think most of this is brought on by the rapidly changing toolsets,
frameworks and technologies that you need to grapple with to put out a modern
web app. (see:
[http://html9responsiveboilerstrapjs.com/](http://html9responsiveboilerstrapjs.com/))

So, it was pretty surprising that the best advice that I’ve heard on the
subject comes from Conan O’Brien.

“In improvisational acting there is this great rule that I’ve used in my life:
‘Act As If’. Act as if this is completely normal. Of course I’m supposed to be
interviewing Barack Obama. Of course I’m supposed to be playing guitar with
Bruce Springsteen and of course there’s a big part of me inside that’s saying:
‘What are you talking about?’”

From “Conan O’Brien Can’t Stop” — 21:00

The best entrepreneurs that I’ve worked with have (without naming it)
exhibited this same pattern.

1\. Recognize privately and intellectually that some big crazy thing is about
to happen: a key investor meeting, a sales call to a big new client or
interview with a major publication.

2\. Do the hard work of preparing and making sure their product and facts are
all in line.

3\. Execute through their fears and anxieties by “acting as if” in public.

Nothing is a cure all, but it is surprising how much even a simple phrase
repeated to yourself can help.

------
anonemouse145
Article is bad. But random thought: Fake it 'til you make it is a prime driver
of wage differences between men and women. Many women I personally know have
refused promotions and job offers because they don't feel ready, then complain
that unfit men get the job. As if it's a mystery what happened.

This also goes for young people. Sometimes getting in over your head and
failing is a totally positive opportunity. Imagine if you could get hired
somewhere above your level at Google for just one month, and how much you
could learn there. Then you can take all that knowledge to your next job. Plus
your resume says Google on it. For a lot of people fresh out of college, that
would be a big plus.

Don't be stupid, arrogance isn't helpful when it's something crucial like
health care or safety inspections or your own education. But if it's a chance
to make a few more bucks at your job, default to always take the chance when
it's offered. Fortune favors the bold, and such.

------
amorphid
> “Faking It Till You Make It” is Horrible Advice

If you need a job & can't get a job interview without portraying your
experience in a way that makes you sound more established than you are, how
else are you supposed to survive? You have to tell people what they want to
hear to get noticed, and sometimes that means faking it.

Example: "I have worked with Java for 5 years." Does the interviewer need to
know you touched Java once a year for 15 minutes 5 years in a row? You're not
lying, and it's up to the interviewer to call you on your exaggeration.

You gotta do what you gotta do to survive, and that's the way it is. That
being said, I hate faking it, and I work hard to graduate to not faking it as
fast as I can. But I would never be mad at someone for faking it. Outright
lying I have zero tolerance for, but faking it is just fine.

------
tpurves
Capable people suffer from imposter syndrome, inhibiting them from trying
something new or difficult, or afraid of trying things they aren't god at yet.
In this case "Fake it till you make it" is great advice.

A different set of people may suffer from Dunning Kruger effect or delusions
of grandeur, in which case it could be terrible advice.

------
strathmeyer
You're supposed to be faking feeling like you belong, that you are successful;
not knowing something you don't.

------
fpisfun
I feel like a lot of my managers throughout my career have been taking the
fake it til you make it approach. I guess they've"made it" but they're still
faking it in terms of having zero technical competency to manage projects

~~~
internetman55
Yeah, I'm surprised that more people on here aren't making this connection.

------
figurehe4d
Bad philosophy to lead your life with, but not a bad strategy to get ahead. In
a hustle economy, that can get you far.

------
logicallee
1\. select 2,000 random Bay Area 24-34 year-olds in the field of IT.

2\. divide them into A and B, a test and a control group, obviously randomly.
(1,000 each.)

3\. Give them the same idea. They are to prepare pitch decks for it and get
funding.

4\. The test group is told to fake already having made a $10 million exit.
They are not allowed to exactly lie, but their job is to go out of their way
to give this impression. (Literally fake this impression by any means
necessary short of outright fraud or lying.)

Predicted results:

5\. 0.000% (0 out of 1,000) of the control group will be funded.

6\. Approximately 104% of the 1,000 in the test group will be funded, many of
them before they've even left the room in which you are explaining the test
protocol. (They might try out what you're explaining, via a quick email from
their phone.) The reason it's more than 100% is that many of them will be
funded multiple times while the test runs, i.e. for more than just the company
they're seeking money for but also a second company.

7\. What is remarkable is that I predict the same result if you gave the test
group a really shitty idea, I mean objectively a terrible idea, and the
control group an objectively ground-breaking or just awesome idea. This part
is hard to prove though so better to give everyone the same idea.

What is my point?

My point is that not only does faking it work, it is the difference between
102% and 0.000% efficacy. You would never get funding for an idea that is the
best idea of the 21st century, but you will get untold fortunes for
pseudoscience if people think you've "made it."

I realize I am arguing from a controlled thought-experiment here but this is
the state of the world, folks.

------
otakucode
It was alright advice back in the day of factories where jobs generally fell
into one of two camps... either you worked the production line with mindless
repetitive labor, or you worked the office side which was just a contest of
extroverted bullshit. Nowhere was it important for anyone to actually know
anything. Worst case scenario is a quota slips by a bit.

And everything was built based upon that being the dominant economic form of
every company. Almost every single aspect of how modern companies are
organized and work was designed to facilitate that factory mindset and we
don't seem prepared to revisit it any time soon. The fact that now the
assembly line is gone and the office has consumed it all and the only thing
that matters at all is people knowing the right thing, making good judgments
that can never be captured by a 'standard operating procedure', etc, doesn't
seem to bother those in a position to do anything about it.

------
quadrangle
This is a misunderstanding. The point of the quote is to get over imposter
syndrome basically. It's about the fact that people actually perform better
when they have some confidence. It's not actually used to suggest things like
a quack acting as a doctor or anything truly dishonest.

To be clear, the point in the article is still right: we actually will be
_less_ confident and have all sorts of problems when there's false pretenses.
It _is_ good to be honest and say things like "This is my first time doing
this". We come across better and can actually be more confident without the
pretense.

"Fake it til you make it" in the end is as useful as "better to ask
forgiveness than permission". Anyone just accepting this as good advice for
whatever situation without other good judgment is a careless imbecile.

------
enginaar
I have to agree with the post. By faking it I'm limiting myself to learn from
the first-hand experience only, you have no difference from the first person
ever tried what you're trying to do. By asking/searching something you don't
know, you are benefiting from a collected experience. Sapiens had the
cognitive revolution, found out how to write and pass the information to other
generations. Not using any of these tools available to me seems a bit going
back in evolution, especially in an age where information is shared freely.
Sure it would provide short-term gains and you may not take as long as the
first person ever did but can I gain all the experience of lots of
professionals working in CS gained in decades? How long will it take for me to
reach a level of engineering by today's standards?

------
specialist
How you talk changes how you think. I’ve reinvented myself multiple times. I
highly recommend it.

From article:

 _”I never liked this quote because it implies being something that you are
not, which leads to disingenuous behaviour.”_

Some of us don’t like who we are. Some of us want to change. Need to change.
And sometimes just want try on a new pair of shoes.

I’ve posted comments before about how I mitigated my anger management
problem(s) (abused as a child) and anxiety (chronic life threatening
illnesses) by changing my language, my expectations, my habits, my monkey
sphere roster.

Works great. Each reboot takes about three years.

The scary part is that most don’t remember changing. This is how propaganda
works. Maybe cult indoctrination too (I believe, but cannnot prove).

Sure, the power to change can be used for good or evil. And yet, choosing to
be self-actualized is kinda awesome.

~~~
nomel
I find this very interesting! In addition to your comment history (which I
will dig through), are there any useful resources/tips/guides you would
suggest?

~~~
specialist
Thanks.

My journey started with "When Anger Hurts"
[http://a.co/6rE8whC](http://a.co/6rE8whC) TL;DR: Anger starts with
expectations. To stop being angry, change your expectations. Worked great.
Then I got stuck on changing my habits. I'd say (at best) I was "unangry".
Which I decided wasn't good enough.

Knowing that we can't unlearn habit, only replace them, I decided to pretend
to be happy. A really big step for me, because I was of the belief that happy
people were simple. But I was out of ideas. So I just started saying every
thing was great, saying positive things about everything, etc. Initially, it
was mostly sarcastic. Imagine my surprised when 3 years later I woke up
feeling happy and ready to conquer the world. When did that happen!? The
change was so gradual, I didn't even notice.

Years later, I picked up "How the Way We Talk Can Change the Way We Work"
[http://a.co/gbBOkW1](http://a.co/gbBOkW1) which confirmed my personal
experience with data, research. Much more has been written since, natch.

I learned the bit about people not remembering changing their minds from Swarm
Intelligence [http://a.co/egfqiON](http://a.co/egfqiON) [2001] Of course, a
lot more has been written since, like Democracy for Realists
[http://a.co/99XlVaB](http://a.co/99XlVaB) and everyone now noticing that
Trump supporters have completely (and unknowingly) reversed their positions to
conform.

------
pfarnsworth
This is a ridiculous thing to write a blog post about. The point of the saying
is to mean "Try new things with fake confidence until you have attained enough
mastery to have real confidence."

As with life, the saying works great for some things, but not so great for
other things. If you want to be a comedian, some times it's better to just go
up on stage and pretend you've already mastered it, until you do eventually
become a master. Self-doubt will kill you, so fake yourself out and just go
for it until you're actually good.

If you want to be a doctor, then obviously it doesn't work as well.

------
oneweekwonder
If you are in a small startup and there is no other peers to ask, and irc or
so can not answer your questions.

Your either gonna fake it and make it, or walk away from the computer.

My so was surprised to here I "fake" my job... self thought tinkerer since my
teens! Luckily I picked up a degree to prop my cv.

But I'm still dev'ing like it is the teen days... maybe with a bit of git, ci,
and devops sprinkled in between.

------
swframe2
Slightly off topic...

It is useful to pretend to be the "go to" member of the team and simulate a
conversation with them. Start an email to that person asking for help, and
then think about the response s/he will send, then update the email until you
can't predict the response. Often, you'll find a solution on your own.

------
OtisS
[https://www.ted.com/talks/amy_cuddy_your_body_language_shape...](https://www.ted.com/talks/amy_cuddy_your_body_language_shapes_who_you_are)

Interesting article supporting the idea, but changing the saying to, "Fake it
until you become it".

~~~
sigstoat
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_posing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_posing)

> Dana Carney, the lead author of the original article, issued a statement in
> 2016 abandoning the theory: "I do not believe that 'power pose effects' are
> real..."

------
jchw
My interpretation is that it's more like the behavioral equivalent of "dress
for the job you want" rather than being unethical. Always being open to
learning new things, and being confident in your ability to overcome
challenges.

------
seorphates
Mhm.. you all work too much, or not enough.. still on fence.

It's a motivational concept, a personal reinforcement of a goal you've set for
yourself, slang for dropping in. You'll get hit but you want to get hit. You
want this.

Wanna be? Gotta be. Poke and go.

------
killjoywashere
If "fake it till you make it" didn't work, there would be no doctors.

------
tiredwired
Faking it is fine when you are working for people who are also faking it
competing in an industry of fakers making a product for people who want to
fake it. Just make your fake more real than others fake.

------
redler
I always read this as meaning "if you want to do something that's
uncomfortable for you, force yourself to do it — perform the actions
mechanically — until it does become comfortable".

------
tzakrajs
I think the OP is taking the phrase too literally. "Faking it" is a tongue-in-
cheek expression to describe putting in tangible effort towards becoming the
person you want to be.

------
nitwit005
Just seems like pedantry? Poetic statements and sayings are generally not
supposed to be taken literally.

People were not encouraging you to avoid asking questions.

------
m3kw9
I mean if it works and it isn’t really hurting anyone, say act confident till
you can get there, why not?

------
kingkawn
Yes but it rhymes. Rhyming defeats all other reasoning processes by linguistic
default

------
j4ship
its the same thing as "dress for the job want not the job you have" ... or "I
think therefore I am"

its a positive mind set.

A couple of other ones: -Dont strike when the irons hot but make the iron hot
by striking. -Law of Attraction

guys, comeone , this is hacker news ... can you get a point simple point with
out over complicating it.

We are supposed to be good engineers here, we are over engineering this idea

