
Ask HN: How many programmers out there keep a paper notebook for their projects? - yellowboxtenant
What kind of notes do you take? Sketch out component views? Pseudo code?<p>My grandfather is a retired electrical engineer who used to plan out and record progression on all his projects. He has boxes filled with his old notebooks. Is this just an old school take on project management and source control? Or do people find benefit in actual note taking during their projects? I&#x27;ve worked with dozens of programmers through out the years and I don&#x27;t think I&#x27;ve ever seen someone approach it this way. I (briefly) attended one of the top IT schools, and outside of scratching pseudo code down on a napkin I don&#x27;t recall it being practiced there either.
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joezydeco
Your grandfather probably came from a shop where engineers were encouraged or
required to write _everything_ down as they discovered problems and worked on
solutions. Those notes became critically important when the patent
applications were started. Some larger companies even provided nice leather-
bound blank books for the engineers to use and keep on their shelves for later
reference.

Capturing ideas and visualizing your problems is something they don't teach
you in IT school. Over my career I've leaned that an on-hand notebook is _way_
more useful than carrying a laptop around. I can sketch out ideas, graph out
signals, and do dozens of other things quickly and silently. It's a lot less
intrusive in meetings. Plus, you can doodle.

I've used everything from pocket steno books to college spiral notebooks.
Moleskines are nice, but way too expensive.

My current go-to notebook is a college notebook I picked up in Germany for a
couple of Euro. It's the right size (not a toy steno book and not a massive
8x10 binder). Side-spiral bound is critical, you can fold it open on a desk
without taking up twice the space. Grid paper is killer for mapping out things
out. A nice touch is the microperfed edges.

Looks like they're on Amazon but in packs of 5. Still, not a bad deal:

[https://www.amazon.co.uk/Landre-100050630-Wood-Free-
Perforat...](https://www.amazon.co.uk/Landre-100050630-Wood-Free-Perforated-
Tear-Out/dp/B00KL49JZC)

~~~
tmaly
that looks really nice, I have a this one [https://www.amazon.com/Engineering-
Computation-Letter-Sheets...](https://www.amazon.com/Engineering-Computation-
Letter-Sheets-35500/dp/B001J87JTM/) but I wish it were spiral bound.

Do you know if there are any US suppliers for yours?

~~~
joezydeco
Unfortunately, I've never seen anything like this at this price point in the
US. There's Moleskine, obviously, but they're crazy expensive and the journals
don't lay flat on a desktop which drives me nuts. There are grid books at art
stores like Blick, but those are even more expensive.

This might a be a good compromise. I should go to my local Blick and check
this one out:

[http://www.dickblick.com/items/77825-1310/](http://www.dickblick.com/items/77825-1310/)

The only thing I've ever had from the US that came close was a 5x7"
JournalBooks 91340 that Freescale gave me as a promotional giveaway. It's a
little larger, but had a durable plastic cover and a pen holder which was
pretty sweet. It seems you can only order these in bulk as a custom-branded
item. Perhaps someone enterprising could kickstart up 100 orders and do a
foil-embossed HN-branded cover for people to purchase. I guess HN needs a
logo, too. =)

[https://www.journalbooks.com/products/24-hour/24-hour-
journa...](https://www.journalbooks.com/products/24-hour/24-hour-
journals/value-books)

~~~
tmaly
I use to get these fantastic blank journals that were hard cover bound back in
the day from Borders Books before they went out of business. I still have a
few from the late 90s. I would love to see something like that with a grid.

------
davismwfl
I keep notebooks still for most things. I use them to jot down ideas, sketch
out designs and just generally write down my thoughts so I don't forget them,
I usually have one to many per company and one per project. I also use them to
take notes in meetings versus trying to take notes on my computer in real
time. Personally, I find it pretty rude to be typing away on a computer while
people are presenting or we are discussing ideas. It seems far less rude to
jot down notes on paper and then come back to it an flush things out after the
meeting.

I do translate my notes as I work through the problems and put them in a tool
like OneNote or Evernote etc. But I always start off with sketches and notes
in a notebook. My bet is if you looked at the pattern of those who use
notebooks vs those who don't, you'd find those of us using notebooks still
skew to an older average age. 40ish+ likely.

Personally, I also jot down pseudo code on paper to get my thoughts right
before starting to code the problem. This lets me get my thoughts straight
before coding it and I find I make fewer mistakes, plus I am faster when I do
this. It is also one of the reasons I dislike coding interviews where someone
wants you to just start writing code in the IDE. I don't do that well, because
to me the process is, understand the problem, design the solution, engineer
the solution, then start coding.

~~~
yellowboxtenant
Have you found any writing or organizational patterns to be useful? When you
design a solution, does that look like a flow diagram? When you engineer a
solution, do you jot down in natural language what you think you should do?

~~~
davismwfl
So, I do follow patterns. For notes they are just notes, written down in my
own shorthand methods many times, but I leave space around each note so I can
come back and jot down extra information or revise myself. So usually I leave
a line or two of space depending on what it is.

When I am trying to solve a problem, I write the problem down first, then move
into breaking it down in a process. I define the actors involved, the expected
input and the expected output and any error conditions that I identify. Then
from there I generate a simple hand written flow chart (not fancy) that will
serve as a happy path through the problem.

When I get to the engineering of the problem that is where I start identifying
parameter limits, error conditions, output limits and then generally write
down some pseudo code to give me something to look at, sometimes that means
flushing out a more complete flow diagram first. And I generally use just
natural language, as none of what I am writing down is real code, although I
may use abbreviations or C syntax at times to express something if it is
easier. For example, I use the conditional ? : quite often for simple flow
control statements just because it is compact to write, even though in code I
may not use that operator in that instance.

------
robobro
I use a Hipster PDA.

Step 1: get 3"x5" (~8cm x 12cm) index cards. They can be ruled, gridded,
blank, colored, whatever. Step 2: Get a binder clip. Step 3: Clip the cards
together.

It's pretty easy to get index card storage bins, and it's convenient to take
around a little stack in your pocket. If you have a lot of cards, a rubber
band works almost better than a clip, but it works better with fewer cards.
There's a lot of templates you can print onto cards, but I usually just use
gridded / blank cards for code ideas. An added bonus is, you can rearrange
cards with different functions to help structure out code ideas. Or you can
print out code, cut out relevant bits, and glue them onto cards.

I tend to manage task lists/todos, mind mapping, and pseudo-code on cards.
Very handy on long bus rides.

~~~
RUG3Y
I use quite a few index cards as well. I recently outlined an ebook I'm
writing, a card to each section. I'll use them to physically map out the flow
of products as well - use a card for each feature/ button and move them
around. I also use them to make drawings, some of which I saved and published
in a zine.

------
LaurenceW1
I keep a notebook. I use it to take finer grain notes about tasks than can be
expressed on a ticket. Also whenever I am going through an unfamiliar codebase
I take hand written notes . I know there are a few iPad apps that are
effectively an infinite whiteboard but I like to handwrite stuff.

------
Ronsenshi
I sketch design elements/components, sometimes structures, various lists very
rarely pseudocode. I prefer to write down ideas which have to be realized,
instead of jumping straight to realization (pseudocode).

I don't have boxes of notebooks, but I do have couple of small shelves filled
with years of notebooks. From time to time I like to go through that stuff -
it's actually very interesting to see your though process from years ago.
Besides notebooks I have small binder filled with hundreds of post it notes
for projects which I store.

Overall I vastly prefer handwritten notes for projects than some kind of
digital notes. It's easy to open page for the recent feature, easy to see what
you have in mind, how something should be done or what should be considered.
ON the same page I could have multiple "data structures": reminders, lists,
summaries and descriptions which easily show state of the progress for
project/feature.

I very much like Moleskin-type notepads with dot-grids with around 100 pages.
I have 2 notepads - one for work and one for personal projects.

------
chrisbennet
I use a composition notebook for each large project. I'm a consultant so I
also put notes from client meetings in it as well as sketches, ideas, and
calculations especially those of a visual nature.

------
jotux
I use one of these:
[http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.ACCT126734/it.A/id.5/.f](http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.ACCT126734/it.A/id.5/.f)

My job is half hardware/firmware so I put a lot of meeting notes, specs, and
calculations in it.

------
titanix2
I use paper a lot, but no notebook. What I find disturbing with them is the
mixing of different projects stuff. Also I prefer to have a lot of space for
drawing.

That's why I use blank gridded A4 paper sheet. Then I put together project
related notes. If a project starts to be big enough, it will naturally lead to
a pack of papers that I can carry along. Otherwise the project can kind of
fade away be laying around or being mixed with other sheets.

I mainly draw application architecture and app screens. I also tend to note in
natural language problem related to those. So this is design notes. For
technical notes about deployment for example, I use One Note.

------
kejaed
My company issues standard notebooks to every employee. A manager / former
systems engineer retired last week after ~30 years and had 50 or so of these
notebooks on his shelf.

I've been going back and forth lately between keeping notes in a Markdown file
on a shared drive and using my notebook. The Markdown file is much better for
searching and ease of access (I'm on 4 or 5 different computers around the
office during a week), but for some unknown reason I keep going back to pencil
and paper to sketch things out. When I had to do some light mathematical
derivations it was all on paper though.

------
abc_lisper
I was searching for exactly the same stuff yesterday, and I found this:

[http://lifehacker.com/five-best-paper-
notebooks-1157038442](http://lifehacker.com/five-best-paper-
notebooks-1157038442)

I usually keep notebooks, but I am ever more convinced of using one because of
Rich hickey's talk:
[https://youtu.be/f84n5oFoZBc](https://youtu.be/f84n5oFoZBc)

and we have a better chance of remembering something if we write than type.
[http://lifehacker.com/5738093/why-you-learn-more-
effectively...](http://lifehacker.com/5738093/why-you-learn-more-effectively-
by-writing-than-typing).

I have previously read that people like Martin Gardner had an awesome system
of keeping notes. I would love to know more about your tips.

How do keep your notes? How do you organize stuff, while retaining the freedom
to doodle. How do you find stuff again(which is the killer feature for typed
notes). Would love to learn from the masters - do you have any books to
recommend?

~~~
yellowboxtenant
I've always had a difficult time keeping notes organized. I think because I'm
a web developer I always have a gazillion projects going on. I can't justify
having a notebook for each project. I've tried keeping up manilla folders with
loose leaf papers, but that was a mess. I tried three-ring binders, but that's
not very convenient. A few weeks ago I tried the bullet journal technique and
it's been working out well for me. It combines your daily calendar / todo list
with project notes. I think it's just the simple idea of having an index that
helps me most.

------
CyberFonic
I use notebooks for general notes, ideas, sketches, todo lists. Also make
notes on stuff that I finally gotten to work, e.g. scripts, etc.

Early in a project I use a pre-punched pad and file the pages into a ring
binder, under categories, topics. Once the project is well underway, I tend to
use those pages to write up the detailed documentation in files which are
stored in the same directory hierarchy as the source and other files.

------
nekopa
I was a habitual moleskine user, I think I have about 30-40 filled ones
sitting in a closet somewhere.

But about 3 years ago, I bought a Samsung Galaxy note 8.0. Because it has a
pen.

I had the original iPad, and a stylus, but you either try to write with your
finger (no good) or use a stylus (write holding someone else's finger) and it
sucked big time.

But with the Note, and actually the stock S-Note app, I had everything I
needed - nice size, pressure sensitive pen - plus extra benefits: I like to
diagram out stuff, draw circles and squares and link between them, and the old
version of S-Note has a great feature where I can draw a crappy circle, and it
will automagically turn it into a perfect circle. Same deal with squares and
lines.

So now I use it exclusively, have my ~200 notebooks backed up in various
places, native form, image and pdf.

Shame though, it looks like it is going to be EOL'd. I am seriously
considering buying a bunch of spare parts to mke sure that I can keep mine
running for a while.

But to sum up: best of both worlds - like writing on paper, but with the
convenience of all that is digital.

------
zhte415
I take A4 paper from the printer, cut it in half (making A5), and clip it
together with a large bull-clip at the top left.

Discard pieces of paper when done, or file them (or scan/photo) when need to
retain. Can discard in groups, creating small folders, clipped together with
other bull-clips.

A never-ending, revolving notebook.

------
psyc
I have always used lined note pads at work, for meeting notes and task lists.

At home, I've always used large, letter-sized books of drawing paper. I have
about 10 of these filled with diagrams and notes, mostly for 3D engines and
games I've worked on in the last 15 years.

------
jordancampbell
I'm doing a PhD in computer science and use a notebook religiously.

I couldn't imagine life without it.

~~~
yellowboxtenant
How do you organize? Do you keep a notebook for each project? Do you use an
index?

Do you start off with a todo list for you projects? Or do you use something
like trello for that?

For me, most of my projects aren't large projects. They're lots of little
ones. Bug fixes, feature add-ons, website extensions... those kind of things.
I can be juggling 20-30 "projects" through-out the year and only need 1-4
pages for each one. Whenever I tried to keep a notebook I quickly get un-
organized and lose energy for keeping it up.

I'm starting to think a 3 ring binder might fit my needs better. Do you ever
use one of those?

~~~
ThatGeoGuy
I'm a grad student in Geomatics engineering, and I organize my workflow with a
notebook and trello.

Notebook / Notepad: I've started transitioning away from notepads because
loose sheets of paper aren't very good for long-term documentation. They are
good for meetings and mocking something up, however, so I keep my notepad
around for that, while I use a line-grid moleskine to document procedures /
math that I am currently working through. This is mostly for long-form
documentation, or working through ideas on paper first. I wouldn't suggest
managing tasks via a notebook, it becomes too cumbersome and you may not
always have your notebook on you when you need to check a todo (in an
impromptu meeting, or if you think of something at the grocery store, etc).

Trello: This helps break down tasks and organizes which tasks / todos are
left. Think of it more as project management, and don't try to document the
world in Trello. Of course, whenever I do an expense claim I take pictures of
the receipts and store them in trello in case I need to look them up again,
but otherwise I don't store too much outside of basic tasks / todos. My only
personal gripe is that Trello doesn't really offer Bitbucket integration (only
Github), so referencing my Bitbucket issues on project boards can be somewhat
tiresome. But specific features, issues, and tasks from Bitbucket projects do
make it on Trello, and I move / archive / delete tasks based on how things end
up getting implemented. Usually if I delete or archive a task, I leave a short
comment (e.g. deleted in favour of doing X, or resolved via issue #Y on
Bitbucket, with any specifics for that issue put into the issue tracker).

I've been trying my best to quantify things into tasks and just throw them on
Trello, rather than have things scattered between my email inbox, Bitbucket
issues, etc, that I'm currently working on. As for indices / an index, I don't
really find it necessary. Most of the long-form stuff I care about is in my
"current" notebook, and I can more or less figure out where other
documentation is if I need to find it.

------
cdhdc
Guidelines for using an engineering notebook.

[http://www.bookfactory.com/special_info/engr_notebook_guidel...](http://www.bookfactory.com/special_info/engr_notebook_guidelines.html)

------
RUG3Y
I have a notebook that I keep various important thoughts in. It's only semi-
organized, and it's not dedicated to a specific project, but many project
notes are kept in it. I think this is a habit that I retained from my time in
the Marine Corps. Pen and paper just has a certain feel to it - when I'm
completely focused on my thoughts, it's much less distracting to dump right
into the notebook rather than into a phone or a computer. One time I misplaced
my notebook for about a week and it was a rough time.

------
afarrell
I always have a pen and paper notebook on my left when I program. It is super
useful to have the swap space. I always take notes so that I can remember what
was agreed on, especially action items.

------
jdiscar
I use a paper notebook to sketch out diagrams and sometimes make todo lists. I
like to use the notebook during useful meetings too, I feel like it's less
distracting than a computer.

------
paulzerkel
I like to use a notebook for random thoughts, todo lists, and diagrams. Taking
notes on paper in meetings helps me commit important details to memory and
having them all in a book keeps me more organized.

I used to always buy Moleskine notebooks but have switched to Forestry
Suppliers #49352 field book. It is a combo of ruled and graph paper and
intended for surveyors, but it is a nice mix for developing software as well.

------
cableshaft
I use paper for random notes or to work out the flow of logic or data that's a
little too hard to do entirely in my head, but other than it being naturally
more or less chronological, I don't do any further organization.

I usually don't need to refer to those notes for more than a few days after I
write them, so it's usually not much more than an archive of thoughts.

I try to digitize some of it, but I don't do that enough.

------
nikdaheratik
I keep some paper notes especially when sketching out visual UI aspects before
trying to implement them. But I keep _extremely detailed_ text files for each
ticket as I'm working on it as well. It helps my pick up right where I left
off and to find something that was thorny if I need to work with it again a
few months later.

------
leojg
I do, but never manage to find a way of keeping them usefull in the long term.
I write some stuff related to current tasks or random thoughs but after a
couple of days they become irrelevant and several unrelated projects get
mixed.

Any ideas about how to organize notes?

------
seanwilson
For balance, I try my hardest to be completely paperless! I prefer having my
notes searchable on a computer.

