
Be Kind - austenallred
http://boz.com/articles/be-kind.html
======
mankyd
I really like these two paragraphs towards the end:

    
    
        Being kind isn’t the same as being nice. It isn’t about superficial praise. 
        It doesn’t mean dulling your opinions. And it shouldn’t diminish the passion 
        with which you present them.
        
        Being kind is fundamentally about taking responsibility for your impact on 
        the people around you. It requires you be mindful of their feelings and 
        considerate of the way your presence affects them.
    

This get's missed a lot here on Hacker News. Many people are often hostile
towards content creators or other commenters.

It's perfectly OK to disagree with someone; but please consider doing so in a
respectful and thoughtful tone. Remember that others often shut-down when they
read criticism, even when well warranted. The way you phrase and present
yourself defines whether you're giving criticism or critique.

~~~
drzaiusapelord
To be fair, this is also incredibly exhausting. Most peoples' reactions to
things are arbitrary at best and constant worrying about how they will take
something is just way too much BS to put into my day. I bought pretty deeply
into this philosophy once and it just made me neurotic and quiet at a time of
my life where those things very much hurt me.

I think being selectively kind makes a lot more sense. I'm kind to children
and animals and my loved ones. People at work, retail staff, etc should be
prepared to not have their emotions constantly validated and deal with
disagreement and other things that are unpleasant.

I'm not one of those "grow a thick skin, jerk" types, but there's this cheap
sentiment I see about how everyone needs to be more kind and compassionate,
and when its not phoned in, it usually ends up as a way to take advantage of
others. Its easy for celebrity millionaire Kurt Vonnegut to write about
compassion and be quoted by tumblerinas and its totally another thing for some
kid no one gives a shit about trying to make his way in the world try to live
it.

I find high-concept philosophies are often the playthings of the well-off and
comfortable. If you're fighting for your living, its not a luxury most of us
can have. Sadly, this often justifies hostility, but I think there's a sane
middle-ground here, but curt statements like "be kind" just seems so classist
and off-putting to me. Like a soccer mom telling me how wonderful the
Maharishi is or how relaxing doing 4 hours of Yoga is (no, she doesnt work,
her husband does) and after I got off a long shift and dealt with a lot of
shit and a crappy commute.

Cheap sentiment just doesn't resolve the fundamental issue facing humanity
today and probably until our final extinction event: we are all competing for
the very same resources and competition can sometimes be ugly. It doesn't need
to be truly awful and we shouldn't be encouraged to be overly negative and
vindictive, but conflict and disagreement happens on a certain level and
pretending we can kindly make it go away is just being unrealistic about our
fundamental economic beings. Kindness is often taken advantage of as one party
feels obligated to engage in it moreso than the other. This is a fairly large
problem in gender politics where we raise women to be kind and then they find
themselves at a disadvantage to men in the workplace who don't have these
values.

Considering everyone here is visiting a hard-nosed libertarian-leaning
entrepreneur forum about becoming wealthy quickly, but the second something
pseudo-spiritual gets posted suddenly we're all Siddhartha under the Bodhi
tree. We're not. If anything, the personality types here are very, very far
from any sort of selfless ideal. Patting ourselves on the back because our
six-figure salaries let us rise above the struggle doesn't mean the struggle
doesn't exist and that struggle means acting in a rational, usually unkind
way. High class pseudo-spirituality is such a hilariously hypocritical thing
its a running gag on HBO's Silicon Valley, yet here we are Gavin Belson'ing it
up. At least I'm honest with myself to say that, no, I'm not "kind" by these
standards and that I will argue and fight with you when I feel its appropriate
and more importantly -- I will not feel bad about it afterwards.

Sadly, most of the replies to my comment are fairly unkind responses telling
me how much of a horrible person I am, especially to retail staff even though
I gave no concrete examples of how I act. How ironic. If anyone is truly
interested, I meditate daily and follow Buddhist ideals. I just refuse to go
to the yogi-like extremes of insincere self-love in an attempt to con my way
out of the struggle of Samsara. Accepting the reality of who I am is real
mindfulness and liberating, and that person is not this uber-kind enlightened
being who is 'above it all' and I doubt anyone here reading this is either. If
anything, if we're buying into cheap manufactured sentiment that just happens
to be self-complimentary, I'd say we're fairly far from that ideal. The same
way we point at the nasty evangelicals will hearts full of hate who pat each
other on the back for being so pious. Lets not go that route, as tempting as
it is. All the technology is showing you this message was made by sweatshop-
style labor. We're just not kind.

~~~
ericabiz
> "People at work, retail staff, etc should be prepared to not have their
> emotions constantly validated and deal with disagreement and other things
> that are unpleasant."

The addition of "retail staff" here surprised me.

I'm a techie who took a break from tech and startups the past few months to
help out my S.O., who owns a retail store. I worked the front counter, ran
inventory, etc. for the past 3 months.

I had never worked retail before. I got into tech at an early age and skipped
most of the "menial" jobs that typical American teenagers have. So working
retail was eye-opening for me.

Retail workers get paid shit wages to deal with your crap. Yes, you. Whatever
crap you've been dealing with, we have to take it with a smile and help you
out. I've stood behind a counter and listened to a homeless guy ramble about
anything and everything for 12 minutes (I had a small clock within view.)

Your attitude in this post indicates to me that you could probably use a bit
of this type of work yourself. If you think it's beneath you, doubly so.

If you're curious what it's like for a techie/introvert/successful
entrepreneur to work retail, I've been blogging about it. (Blog link in my
profile) To be honest, the 3 months I spent there made me a far better person
than any given 3 months I spent in the tech industry (I've run tech companies
for 14 years now.) It humbled me, and gave me far more respect for my fellow
human beings. And I learned there's nothing like the priceless joy in
someone's eyes when you do something for them and can see pure joy radiate
from them. I hope you, too, can experience this.

~~~
gnaritas
Not the OP, and cool story; however, what they're paid doesn't matter, it's a
red herring. It's their JOB to deal with people and and it's not my job as a
shopper to validate the emotions of the counter worker or my co-workers. Ring
up my stuff, take my money, and let me leave.

You're chastising him for his "attitude"; what attitude? He's correct and he
didn't display any attitude other than simple honesty.

~~~
npizzolato
GP's attitude is the same attitude you have when you claim "it's their JOB to
deal with people" and when you equate being nice to "[validating] the emotions
of the counter worker". Sure, their job is to deal with shitty people with a
smile, but it's also your job (as a nice, respectable member of society) to be
a person who is pleasant to deal with.

~~~
drzaiusapelord
> Sure, their job is to deal with shitty people with a smile

There is so much projection here I'm not even sure where to start.

Lets say I'm working with retail worker who has been trained to be as
difficult as possible to stop my RMA attempt for something I bought that was
broken. I can see things from her point of view and understand her paycheck
comes from her financial masters who want her to deny my RMA, but that
infringes on my return rights. Now I express this as clearly as I can. Guess
what, now I'm an "asshole" because $big_co wants to be able to casually rip
people off.

I pretty much got into a yelling match about a serious engine fault on my
wife's warrantied car a few years ago. Its only after I was particularly nasty
did they relent and do the work. Why does the guy making $12 an hour behind
the counter want to deny me my entitled service? Because Jeep told him to
limit this kind of very expensive work.

This is so much more complex than you make it. Niceness and kindness do not
resolve the fundamental conflict we are having. If anything, it allows the
kind person to be taken advantage of. If I wasn't at the dealer with my wife
they would have steamrolled her the same way other mechanics have steamrolled
her.

The world is a nasty place and how we handle it is situation dependent. Want
me to be nice to you? Treat me with some goddamn respect and don't try to rip
me off. Because if you don't, you'll deal with a lot of "assholes." "Assholes"
who are just working schmucks trying to get through the day without being
ripped off.

I think the "kind" people of HN need to stop calling everyone who disagrees
with them or have different motivators "assholes." Disagreement, argument, and
negotiation are fundamentals in life. Retail staff need to learn to handle
that. Its a huge entitlement to be this snotty retail person who hates all his
customers. The lady who wants to return the broken food processor isn't a
"bitch" because she got you off your freemium game for a minute and she's not
a "mindless breeder" because she fed her crying baby on your counter. Or
"stuck up" because she had to answer the pediatricians call on her iphone
while you were processing the return.

~~~
nostrademons
It's possible to be assertive and insistent and yet still be polite and calm
about it. The cynic in me would label this as "fuck you said with a smile",
but the pragmatist in me notes that "fuck you" really does get a very
different reaction from people when said with a smile.

Think of communication as having two layers, an emotional one and a factual
one. In your car example, the factual layer remains the same, "You are going
to fix my car." But you can either combine that with an emotional layer of
"And I am fucking pissed off with you right now because you fucking don't do
your job, you useless twit", or you could layer it with "I understand that
your job is difficult and you're doing the best you can, I don't want to make
things difficult for you, but the contract clearly says that the car is under
warranty, the car is clearly broken, and I'm not leaving until it's fixed."

~~~
gnaritas
And experience says the emotional one is more effective because most people
are primarily emotional creatures. Nice and assertive doesn't work as well as
pissed off.

------
aristus
This is a fantastic article from Boz. I have to be blunt in my criticism,
however, as I imagine Boz would expect and appreciate. I had a few run-ins
with him in the early 2010s and I don't see much evidence that he learned from
these experiences or changed his basic working pattern. Or maybe he was even
more raw before I met him. :) I learned very early on not to have anything Boz
wanted nor to cross him. It's hard to judge the impact of what people don't
say, once they get into the habit of not saying certain things around you.

~~~
thisisboz
Yup, this post is about the start of a journey that is still ongoing for me.
It still takes work and I still lose focus and do poorly and tried to call
that out at the end.

To your specific point, I probably was _even_ worse in 2008 than what you
experienced in 2010. That's probably true at every point since. I'm getting
better, but I am sure you can find people even in the last year who would say
this post doesn't reflect the Boz they met. I believe those people are getting
fewer and their experiences less bad, but I am definitely not great at this
yet so the post should be taken as a belief I hold and a behavior I aspire to.

~~~
pdkl95
> Being kind is fundamentally about taking responsibility for your impact on
> the people around you.

> the start of a journey that is still ongoing

Then you still have a long way to go on that journey, because you apparently
have no idea the damage you've done to the _world_ with Facebook. You have
help lead people into undermining their own privacy, straight into the hands
of a surveillance state.

So keep on that journey. Maybe in a few decades, when it is far too late,
you'll realize how much you have hurt humanity. For the time being, I expect
you'll just dismiss this entire post.

/sigh/ I don't have many regrets in life, but you, "Boz", are one of them. I
wish I never ran those 4-H programming projects, and never worked to get you
interested in computers. It probably wouldn't have changed much, but maybe the
problem we call "Facebook" would be just a little bit easier to fight.

~~~
hashtree
I really hope there is a joke in there I am missing, besides the obvious irony
in relation to the article content.

~~~
ffaust
^^^thinks it would be kinder to netizens if 'Dan-o' found no means by which to
facebook us...

------
iamcreasy
I am an Engineering major(I have been programming since I was 13), and I have
a bad habit of over-analyzing everything. I never skim over the details, and I
always try to dig into a topic as much as I can to make sure my
interpretations are correct.

Because of this attitude, I can not enjoy fantasy novels. They ask me to
bridge the gap between multiple paragraphs with insufficient information. But
at the same time, I am really comfortable with technical writing; no matter
how complicated they are.

My girlfriend tells me I am mean to people, and I am not very kind. But it
can't be furthest from the truth(from my perspective). I have never had any
intention to hurt anyone. Gosh! I don't even hurt an ant. All she tells me is
that I am `good person`.

So I asked her to demonstrate me some of the variants of conversation where I
don't come of as an unkind person. I thought with enough examples, I'd able to
extract a pattern.

She has been trying this for the last couple of years. But it's not working. I
am yet to find a pattern, and unless I find a pattern I don't know what the
anti-pattern will be.

The best solution I've found thus far is to smile and remain silent. But that
can't be the only solution. So my question to HN crowd,

How do I learn to be kind?

~~~
kaeluka
I needed to learn that others _are_ interesting even though they have nothing
to say about what's on my mind right now.

From that came everything else.

~~~
ffaust
_a suggestion to everyone: read that last comment again._

beautiful. and well put. thank you.

------
morgante
This is a fantastic post and hits really close to home. I'm currently going
through almost the exact same situation, where I'm effectively being demoted
due to my general lack of kindness.

It's also important to note that if boz is anything like me, he probably _had_
to be almost fired for the lesson to go through. For most of my life, people
have been telling me I need to be kinder (especially my parents), but I've
never cared until now. It's certainly held me back socially, but never
professionally. I never received a worse grade for being unkind. I never lost
out on a job opportunity (being unkind is different from being an asshole).
Until getting demoted, I never felt kindness was relevant to success.

It stings, but I've finally realized that I need to act on this. I'm re-
reading Dale Carnegie and am, more importantly, trying to deliberately
consider the emotional impact of everything I say. (If anyone has advice or
resources, I'm all ears.)

\-----

I probably should have posted this on a throwaway, but decided to be
transparent. Please be kind.

~~~
athenot
I find it easier to be kind when I try to see things from the perspective of
the other person. I quickly put myself in their position & try to understand
what would be helpful and what would be counter-productive.

Observing and listening to others goes a long way.

That needy coworker that's annoying may be craving affirmation: smile when
appropriate and avoid blaming their identity for their actions ("you failed"
vs. "your stuff doesn't work").

Or that boss who's asking for stupid reports all the time may in fact be under
intense pressure from above. While handling the pressure is technically his
job, giving him some ammo to help reduce uncertainty helps reduce his
headache.

Most religions have codified kindness as "do to others what you want them to
do to you".

From a networking / interop perspective, it's "be strict in what you provide
and lenient in what you accept".

~~~
morgante
> Most religions have codified kindness as "do to others what you want them to
> do to you".

I actually think the Golden Rule is very ineffective. Personally, I'd prefer
if everyone got quickly to the point with me and said things quickly and
plainly. While this is great for many engineers, some other people prefer a
lot more subtlety.

~~~
glinia
Agreed. Anything else is a waste of time, and usually leaves me with more
questions than answers.

At the same time, the quick and efficient version can still be presented in a
positive - or at least nonnegative - way, which I think OP mentions: "callous
indifference" is indistinguishable from "mean", for many people, which makes
it difficult to work together.

------
fsk
I had a completely different interpretation of the incident at Facebook.

He had developed some key features that were now important. Instead of
mentoring him to work better with others, his boss demoted him.

The boss was giving someone else a favor, making them the lead of this now-
important project, some up-and-coming hotshot. He made up an excuse about "bad
attitude", while just using it as cover for backstabbing him.

The OP probably had big $$$ in unvested options, so he had to play along and
play nice, instead of quitting on the spot.

~~~
thisisboz
I'm going to write a follow up about how I wasn't mad about the feedback as
much as I was mad nobody had told me sooner. We were a young company and
didn't really have a management or mentorship skillset yet. We would all
develop that together in the ensuing years and this was a major part of my
motivation for pushing for it.

~~~
fsk
I still say that someone gave you a shit sandwich, and tricked you into
believing that it tasted good.

~~~
thisisboz
I'm a lot happier. If that's a trick, I'm not mad about it.

~~~
hinkley
Are they making you say this? Blink once for yes, two for no.

------
eclipxe
The best manager I ever had (and continues to be my inspiration today) was
also one of the kindest, genuine, and empowering people I've ever met. Not
necessarily nice, but kind.

The worst manager I ever had once told me "you're too kind to your team". He
wore his ability to bring fear to a room like a badge of honor.

I never worked harder and more passionately than under the first and I never
felt more apathetic and unmotivated from work than under the second. A single
data point, but something I'll never forget.

~~~
vijayr
Not disagreeing with you, but there are also leaders like Jobs, Gates, Ellison
etc. How come they are able to get amazing results, while being really nasty
to their people?

~~~
eclipxe
Outliers, lucky, Right place, right time.

The problem is with the people that try to emulate leaders like that - they
try to play Steve Jobs in meetings and end up causing all of the damage
without any of the greatness.

~~~
mucker
They aren't outliers.

~~~
tempestn
Can you explain why you say that? It seems you're suggesting that there is in
fact a correlation between genius, or at least effective management, and
unkindness. Is that what you meant? If so, why?

I can see how high high achievers could tend to be extremely focused and
driven, which in some cases would present in this way. I wouldn't expect it to
be the norm though; do you believe otherwise? How do you know?

~~~
vijayr
I guess the parent is saying that there are lots of people with nasty behavior
who are successful - may be not bill gates level successful, but successful
nevertheless. Just a guess though

------
slvv
"Being kind is fundamentally about taking responsibility for your impact on
the people around you. It requires you be mindful of their feelings and
considerate of the way your presence affects them."

I think this advice is so apt and so needed. There's a perception that to be
effective or powerful, one must also be harsh, stern, a little bit mean. That
stems from a misunderstanding of what kindness is. Hopefully people will heed
his advice!

------
realrocker
Notice how it was OK for him to be mean while Facebook was growing up it's
infrastructure. Being right unfortunately is a necessary evil for the first
wave in any project. In the nascent stages a project often needs firm almost
machine like guidance. As the project matures the sense of stability trickles
down organically to it's members. Some make the transition well while others
dont. Often the best of our champions don't make the cut. The author has
rightly pointed out the importance of Kindness, but that's not enough. The
leadership should also be kind and help these mean incumbents make the
transition.

~~~
borski
I disagree. You can absolutely be a powerful leader with a powerful vision
without being mean or being, for lack of a better term, an asshole. That
doesn't mean you acquiesce or agree with everything everyone else says, it
just means you lead by example and with a keen understanding of how what you
say and do affects those around you, rather than ignoring that.

It's similar to taking medication to treat the causes of an issue without
being concerned with the side effects. It's totally cool if your headache goes
away, but less cool if you then have seizures for 2 years. It's even worse if
it makes those around you have seizures for 2 years, while your headache has
gone away.

~~~
realrocker
I think being always right in this context means being less open to consensus
and taking up more responsibility of execution. This could be very crucial in
a fight or flight situation. Most of the time this is a very natural response
to adverse situations. Like I said such a response has a very short shelf
life. But being persistently in the same state long after the crunch time has
passed is definitely not ok.

------
hellbanTHIS
Maybe this is a low blow but if there's one place that needs a little less
kindness and a lot more truth it's the Facebook News Feed. It's real nice that
they only show you news they think you'll like but it seems pretty
irresponsible.

If they really want to make the world a better place they should come up with
some way of spotting some of the verifiably false news stories that get posted
there. They could do it nicely, maybe: "Hey did you know this story may
contain many factual errors? Check it out on Snopes.com!" Facebook could even
set up their own fact checking service if they wanted to, it would be good PR
for them.

And it's important to be nice but you have to be able to say "this sucks"
sometimes too. With a guy like this Boz who's doing a good job but has a
natural inclination to steamroll people maybe they should have set him up with
some sturdier folks and let them fight it out instead of creating an
atmosphere where he's afraid of being fired for being direct. That sounds like
poor management, IMO.

~~~
shaneofalltrad
That is an interesting perspective; "have set him up with sturdier folks".
Coming from a construction background myself, I find I need to work on my
behavior, as engineers are much more sensitive than construction workers and
actually anyone I have ever worked with, even sales people. I work with
another guy, who was a previous auto-mechanic and we get along great. Might
make sense to add a study as to personalities, dynamics of these teams and
what personality combinations make for the most successful teams.

~~~
hellbanTHIS
Yeah programmers can be delicate. Maybe they used up all the sturdy folks they
could find. "Dammit Boz that's the third dev you've broken this week! This
time it's coming out of your salary!"

------
dcpdx
I'm currently re-reading the classic "How to Win Friends and Influence People"
by Dale Carnegie, and one of the principles he outlines to win people over to
your way of thinking is to "show respect for the other person's opinion. Never
say 'you're wrong'." He tells a story from Ben Franklin's autobiography
outlining how insolent and opinionated he used to be, to the point that nobody
could stand being around him. One day, someone wiser and older pointed this
out to him and from that moment, Franklin made it a point to never directly
contradict people or positively assert his own opinions. Instead, he'd say
things like "I may be wrong. Let's examine the facts." This warmed people up
instead of immediately putting them on the defensive and completely changed
the success he had in dealing with people. A little tact and diplomacy goes a
long way towards persuading others towards your way of thinking. And you never
have to say "you're wrong."

~~~
mark-r
An amazing story, when you consider that later in life Benjamin Franklin was a
diplomat.

------
aethertap
I had almost that exact conversation with my boss a few years back (except for
the part about almost getting fired). I was completely stunned that people
thought I was indifferent to their ideas and bent on finding flaws, because I
had actually made an effort _not_ to do that for quite a while before the
conversation. It turns out that, at least for me, navigating through people's
sensitivities while having a technical discussion and making sure the truth is
discovered is extremely difficult.

The effect it had on me was to basically make me clam up, because I decided
that pointing out issues that would eventually crop up was not worth the risk
of alienating my coworkers. It's hard for me to say whether this was a net
positive or negative in terms of overall productivity, because if my shutting
up makes the team more cohesive, I can see how finding the problems for
themselves would grow their strengths over time. On the other hand, we often
make decisions now that I would have questioned before in the process of
talking it out (that includes my own decisions often enough because the whole
discussion process is chilled). Ultimately, we seem to have a more congenial
team (at least on the surface) at the price of having more bugfixes to deal
with. Very unclear to me whether I did the right thing, but I can't really
think of another way to handle it.

 __Edit to add:

The other big effect I noticed after learning to let stuff go was that I
generally feel a lot less invested in the projects now. Before, I would treat
every project I was on like it was my baby, and now I feel much more like I'm
just working on somebody else's thing. That's not necessarily a bad thing (my
phrasing is poor above, but I'm too tired to fix it at the moment), because it
probably more accurately represents the real situation. The sense of
detachment does tend to mean that I don't push as hard to go beyond
expectations though.

------
grandalf
While the author may have been a very talented engineer, there are also a lot
of mediocre engineers (and members of other professions) who happen to act
like jerks.

Don't assume that just because someone is crotchety, indignant, or combative
that he/she is intelligent.

~~~
spb
I generally assume the opposite.

If an engineer is outstanding, their actions can speak for themselves, and
they won't have to put on airs; if an engineer is mediocre, their only option
to hide it will be arrogance.

~~~
orand
There's a third type: the engineer who is outstanding but is addicted to being
perceived as brilliant, so they layer extra arrogance on top, never conceding
points, overstating facts and contributions, etc. to make themselves appear
even more brilliant. When I encounter these types, I think to myself "If you
just didn't feel compelled to overstate things, you'd be truly awesome."

------
20andup
I am not sure I agree 100% with this. If both people are working on a really
hard problem and the argument is based on theory, then yes, you should be
kind. But if a colleague routinely creates more work for you and he thinks he
is a competent programmer when not, then being kind will only further stroke
his ego.

I am literally facing this at work. One of my colleague has an opinion on
everything. Its quite frustrating because he is neither the most experienced
person in the topic nor is he any good. I literally caught him using an if
else statement for check whether a dictionary contained a key when one line
would have done. Its programming 101, pick up a book and you will learn it in
chapter 3. But he goes on saying he has 5 years in this industry... I am like
okay bro. How he got a job is beyond me.

In the end, kindness is a tool in EQ. You should use it when needed and be
stern when another approach calls for it. Hiding your dissatisfaction just to
be kind will do the company long-term dis-service. Especially to the code
base.

~~~
shockzzz
Oh, the engineerian contrarian. A legend as old as time itself.

~~~
20andup
:)

------
tptacek
Happy to be a data point:

If you couldn't have guessed from my HN personality, this is me, as well.

Different companies have had different ways of putting it; in the current
incarnation, with Erin and Patrick, I'm called "Kanye", as in, "I'ma let you
finish".

Working on it!

~~~
0throwaway0
Don't change too much. Your comments are usually very critical and very
technically correct, even if they might offend a project owner.

Based on your HN personality, I know that you're a no-bullshit kind of guy,
and that means that your company is at the top of my list for when I start
looking for my next gig.

------
midnightmonster
Author's 'before' picture is me very often. I'm nearly ego-less in pursuit of
the truth--more than ready to be shown wrong myself--but that doesn't mean
that coworkers and loved ones end up feeling good about the conversation.

I hope he will write a "how to" follow up, because I would like to change, but
I don't see how to do it in a way that doesn't sound impossibly exhausting.

I'm hopeful that it actually is possible, though, because for 30+ years I had
never been able to keep any space well-ordered for more than a few weeks, nor
had any reason to think I ever would be able to. I read "the life changing
magic of tidying up" and it turns out I can do it--I just needed to be taught
how. This may not seem relevant, but it's been life-changing not so much to
have a tidy office, but to learn that what I assumed was a fixed personal
trait was changeable after all.

~~~
fsniper
I think reading, "How To Win Friends and Influence People " from Dale Carnegie
helps.

Took me years to understand soft skills are as much or more important than
technical skills.

(Fixed book's name)

~~~
spb
It's "How to Win Friends and Influence People", and it's one of Paul Graham's
recommended books (see
[http://www.paulgraham.com/startupfaq.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/startupfaq.html)
), along with the Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin.

There's also "7 Habits of Highly Effective People", which is often recommended
in the same breath.

~~~
beat
I did a lightning talk a while back called "7 Habits of Highly Effective
DevOps", adapting the habits and the organization of them to doing DevOps
well.

~~~
trusche
Would you mind sharing your notes on that, if you have any?

~~~
beat
Here are the slides, at least. [http://www.slideshare.net/davestagner/seven-
habits-of-highly...](http://www.slideshare.net/davestagner/seven-habits-of-
highly-effective-devops)

------
duncanawoods
Has anyone tried Loving Kindness meditation? "Empty your mind" type of thing
never did much for me but Loving Kindness meditation featured in New Scientist
so I gave it a go out of curiosity.

I found it remarkable. If you spend deliberate concentrated time imagining
someone you know or might meet and them becoming happy, you later get a weird
sense of joy when you do meet them. You anticipate and look forward to nice
things happening to them and unconsciously strive to make that happen. What's
fascinating is that it works with people you dislike/have trouble with. It
really does foster empathy.

Kindness when treated as just a behaviour will be an uphill struggle, there
will be conflict between what you want to do versus a correction. However when
your first instinct, your desire without thinking about it, is to be kind -
its no bother.

------
bsder
Don't know boz, but would probably like him. Hopefully I will bump into him
someday.

Somehow, I seem to get along with all of these "raging assholes" that
everybody complains about when I meet them. They tend to do interesting stuff,
are interesting to talk to, and, generally, aren't attempting to do active
harm to you because they're too busy doing stuff.

Of course, if they accidentally do something that harms me or ticks me off, _I
WILL TELL THEM_. Normally, they are the first to apologize and help fix the
issue they caused.

I only flip someone into the true asshole category when I tell them what they
did to cause me grief, and they don't try to make amends somehow.

~~~
pellaeon
I've also been holding the same view as you since teenage, I believe the world
operates by continuous contradictions and compromises or amendments. I expect
myself to honestly directly pointing out the wrong of others, but also to
proactively recognize and amend my own faults when others point out.

From my own recent experience and Boz's article, I am forced to realize that
not just all people operates this way, I should simply adjust. Though I still
genuinely believe this is the most efficient way for people to grow and
improve, because this way eliminates all the overhead of misinterpretations.

I guess Boz's personality is close to "the debater"
[http://www.16personalities.com/entp-
personality](http://www.16personalities.com/entp-personality) and so do you
and I.

------
jasonwocky
I dunno. I'm not a big fan of the "be kind" angle on things. Too often that
translates to, "Withhold the feedback you have for fear that you'll upset the
other person." Or, "Don't tell anyone that you think you have a better idea
than the one someone else is championing."

I generally think that people are "too kind" at work in a lot of ways, and it
leads to a lot of grousing and internal stress on the part of the people who
have to bite their lip rather than contribute to their fullest.

Rather than "Be Kind", I prefer the duo of, "Be Honest, but Be Thoughtful
First".

~~~
pekk
It would be useful if people carefully considered their real motivations for
their feedback, and whether it was really all correct and relevant. Feedback
which hasn't passed a strong internal filter for whether it is basically
constructive, objective and well-informed isn't worth voicing and really
should be withheld. So I like that you say "be thoughtful."

~~~
jasonwocky
Yeah, I'm a big proponent of the thoughtfulness you describe. I don't like it
when people shroud rudeness & cognitive miserliness as "just calling things
like they see them." I prefer "See it, think about it, then call it."

I really value honesty, but not every emotion-laden thought that passes
through our heads deserves airtime.

------
weeksie
Spot on. I think it's tough, particularly as a young guy, to hold back on
being overly confrontational. I used to be horrible to be around, not just
professionally, but in nearly every way. Super fighty and abrasive.

I'd like to think that it was through mindful practice that I've managed to
tame my aggression. Perhaps it is, partly. But the real reason that I'm a lot
easier to get along with now probably has to do with aging out of the
testosterone-flooded decade of my 20s.

~~~
aidenn0
I think it is mindful practice; I'm in my mid 30s and probably more abrasive
than in my early 20s, despite having much less testosterone-fueled aggression.

~~~
weeksie
Ha! Perhaps. I'm sure it's a lot of things. I also grew up working on fishing
boats in Alaska and what passed for civil discourse out there would be
fighting words in most professional environments.

Mindfulness is tough though. I've actually had to work pretty hard on being
aware of my reactions and the intentions behind them. If I find myself getting
upset, my face getting hot or my fingers tingling, then I ask myself what it
is I want out of the situation I'm in. Usually the best way to get that is to
take a deep breath and try to understand _why_ the other person doesn't
understand my point of view.

Of course, being aggressive is a very useful trait at times. Learning when to
use that trait is the tricky part.

------
fideloper
IDK, maybe I'm forgetting what it's like to be earlier in a dev career (I'm
30), but how much I see "this resonates me" more than "duh" is a bit scary.

I suppose we're all on a scale of ability to be empathetic (and can learn be
more emphatic), but who goes into a job with this attitude?

Cheers for learning! I just wish all of our upbringings could bring us this
lesson earlier in life. Because...it should. You graduated Harvard, and got a
job where you acted like you knew everything. I suppose that's typical of
college grads everywhere though, I'm not trying to be too harsh.

------
thisisboz
I've been blown away by the thoughtfulness on this thread. For those who are
interested, here is the first in a series of follow up posts about the same
period of time in my life that gets into some of the very fair issues raised
in this thread (namely, that Dustin really should have given me this feedback
long before it got to the point of nearly getting fired)

[http://boz.com/articles/give-hard-feedback-
fast.html](http://boz.com/articles/give-hard-feedback-fast.html)

------
nashashmi
I am sorry I did not come across this submission sooner today. There are lots
of opinions being passed around here, and all of those opinions are being
framed from the point the OP focused on: kindness.

I am not sure if kindness is the right remedy. In fact I don't know what the
right remedy is. But my insight is a little different here. These past couple
of years I have been slowly reading a book called "The Multiplier." It has
been a very difficult read, mostly because every page of every chapter has
been a slap in the face. I am constantly having regrets over the past. The
book is related to management, and in essence, it says that intelligent people
get miscarried by their intelligence. And then the book gives situations upon
situations and examples upon examples of how intelligent people are terrible
managers.

The book also says that the best possible thing for a team is to remove its
most obnoxiously intelligent person. Similar to when you remove a queen from a
chess board, the weight of winning and accomplishing great things now equally
rests on the shoulders of all players, positioning everybody for growth.

And if you are still reading, some quotes: one guy makes you feel like he is
the most intelligent person in the world; his rival makes you feel like you
are the most intelligent person in the world. I started off reading the book
to know how to multiply my skills across my team, but the book was about how
to multiply people to do more than they've ever done before.

~~~
kabouseng
Hi this sounds like a really interesting book. Would you mind sharing the link
to the book on Amazon, searching for the "the multiplier" gives three possible
books you might be talking about :D.

Thanks in advance.

~~~
ck425
I think this is the book he's referring to:

[http://www.amazon.co.uk/Multipliers-Best-Leaders-Everyone-
Sm...](http://www.amazon.co.uk/Multipliers-Best-Leaders-Everyone-
Smarter/dp/0061964395)

~~~
nashashmi
Yup that is the one.

~~~
kabouseng
Thanks!

------
fillskills
On of my co-founders advised me starting my first role as a CEO - "Listen."
That one word changed how I perceive the world around me.

Sidenote: this is one of the most beautiful sites I have ever seen

------
pellaeon
It leaves me great ponder after reading the comments. After all, is "being
kind" the general rule? Should it be a general rule? Or is it just an attitude
towards certain kinds of personality (or the belief by people who have these
personalities)?

Recently read about the 16 personality types of psychology
[http://www.16personalities.com/personality-
types](http://www.16personalities.com/personality-types), I guess Boz is more
of a "debater", like myself, who doesn't care much about the attitudes,
instead we focus on the idea itself that is being conveyed, to fully
understand it, and to dig out all implications and foundations.

The article seems to encourage us to become more like the "diplomats", to
understand people's feelings.

Should I change? should we change? or should we just "be kind" to the
sensitive people, and be ourself, ie. direct, honest but probably not kind,
around other people?

The doubt I have on being kind boils down to overhead, it leaves a huge hole
to misinterpretations, and just as people say in the comments, sometimes
people see your kindness as unimportance.

For myself, I'd rather be offended then to be "protected by
(mis)interpretations" of others on me. I hate to find out people specially
crafting their speech in order to convince me. I am intelligent and mature
enough to seperate the attitudes and the ideas of speech.

Nevertheless, I do see the value of what's Boz suggesting, I guess being kind
is maybe an overstatement, instead, being thoughtful is more conservative, and
thus, a more general rule.

------
decisiveness
It's hard for me to say that being overly upset about someone else's argument
winning over yours is not as significant a character flaw as sounding like a
know it all.

Should we be always singling out those born and developed with little empathy
to appease those born and developed with high emotional sensitivity? It would
serve both to put forth effort in improving their flaws.

------
alashley
Totally agree with the premise of this article. Being kind involves being
empathetic and putting yourself in the other person's shoes. Most times, this
involves taking a step back and not reacting in the moment (to the best of
one's ability). Passion can be a good thing, but not without restraint and
self-awareness.

------
brendangregg
Well written. Some companies have "no asshole" or "no brilliant jerks"
policies to stop hiring or tolerating such behavior. Eg, it's included in the
Netflix culture deck:
[http://www.slideshare.net/reed2001/culture-1798664/35](http://www.slideshare.net/reed2001/culture-1798664/35)
. That slide deck is promoted during the hiring process, and you are
encouraged to study it.

As Boz writes, you might not have thought it through before, and if you do,
you can realize that being kind can mean being more productive than just being
right. So perhaps having it in a culture deck, given to job applicants, could
help some people make that realization before they walk in the door.

------
borski
This is hard. It's something I struggle with because once you get the hang of
it, it's actually pretty easy to convince other people to like you; it takes
time to learn that too, but once you have the patterns down it's not that bad.

What is infinitely harder is /actually/ respecting other people's opinions and
beliefs, rather than simply making them think you are. These aren't the same
thing, and are easy to confuse, in my experience. Be really careful, on your
journey, to be watchful of that. I screwed that up and am still trying to
figure out where the line lies.

------
dools
I came to the realisation about a year ago that I was pathologically obsessed
with being right about everything.

I discussed this with a good friends who pointed me at this stuff about phases
of adult development:

[http://www.slideshare.net/mobile/MargoBoster/how-being-an-
ex...](http://www.slideshare.net/mobile/MargoBoster/how-being-an-expert-can-
stall-your-career)

------
drincruz
Great read. I was in a similar boat; reading Dale Carnegie's "How to Win
Friends and Influence People" changed the way I interact with people a lot.

Sasha Laundy's talk at PyCon 2015 is a great example of how to interact with
other engineers:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hY14Er6JX2s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hY14Er6JX2s)

------
mavdi
People seem to underestimate this but I've learned this lesson myself the hard
way. Your absolute most important skill is not to make a dick of yourself next
to your co-workers. Even if it means doing things wrong for a while, it is
essential you don't hurt feelings while slowly pushing for things to change.

------
nickbauman
We get so caught up in what is the "correct" answer. We forget software is
made by humans and almost always meant to make human lives better (in some
cases make life even possible). So it makes sense to put humanity ahead of the
work. Otherwise, isn't this the grandest conflict of mission?

------
butterfi
Good for you Boz! Some people go their whole lives without learning that
lesson. One of my favorite pieces of advice I ever received was "be direct, be
specific, and be non-punishing." At the time, I thought it was trite advice,
but its one of the more useful tidbits I've heard.

------
igl
From my experience there are a few people in IT who can learn from this and
start self-reflecting. They are NOT the majority but there are angry white
sociopathic nerds.

The monoculture is often criticized in the programming departments and being
nice would be the first thing for diversity happen sooner.

------
balls187
They may forget what you said — but they will never forget how you made them
feel. —Carl W. Buehner

------
chrisbennet
I wonder how much of this inability to be nice to others/empathize is due to
tech selection bias and how much is due to lack of socialization as children?
Before computer games, etc., kids spent a lot more time playing outside with
their friends in person.

------
istvan__
I really like a presentation from Jeff Hackert in the subject:

[https://twitter.com/jchackert/status/330674979198861314](https://twitter.com/jchackert/status/330674979198861314)

------
gesman
>> I’m still not as good as I’d like to be at any of this...

...

>> But believing deeply that I am responsible for how I make others feel ...

...

Don't make a guilt trip out of this.

You're cool, smart and capable.

Go ahead and conquer higher heights.

Pleasing others neither been a winning nor beneficial strategy for anyone.

------
cjdrake
Several well-known people in tech are notorious jerks. So I don't think being
kind is a necessary condition for career success (though it can't hurt). But I
suspect it's necessary to have a happy life.

~~~
Zelphyr
Imagine what they could achieve if they were kinder to people.

~~~
gnaritas
Or what they couldn't if they were. Sometimes being an asshole contributes to
success rather than stymies it, see Linus and Linux.

------
morpheous
"Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle".

Something unfortunately, we all have to keep reminding ourselves off (Yes, I
know it's difficult to remember that when dealing with a jerk!).

------
nichochar
Funnily enough, his about page is entitled: "Who Are You and Why Should I
Care?"

Link: [http://boz.com/about.html](http://boz.com/about.html)

------
euphoria83
Not being kind also blinds you to other people's achievements.

------
fixxer
I wonder how the community would evolve if commenting was simply turned off
for a month? If karma could only be gained through up votes, you might see
better submissions.

------
babababa
The author is self aware and empathetic. But even if he wasn't or his natural
inclination was not to become more kind, it's a really good thing to fake (and
will hopefully become natural over time). Being kind is the right thing to do
even if you're selfish/looking out only for yourself. A lot of really smart
jerks are held back because other people don't want to work with them. Even if
they're promoted for their individual contributions, they will always be
limited by how much they individually can achieve vs. as a team.

------
PSeitz
Japan already does this (yes I mean the whole country)

------
mpoloton
It requires courage and wisdom to openly accept feedback and reflect on
yourself instead of playing the blame game in situations like this.

------
ausjke
Well said. This is especially useful to some of the nice geek/nerds. I'm
printing it out and put it on the wall for a while.

------
pschastain
An excellent article. Unfortunately, you can't comment on it on the site
without a Facebook account, and that I don't have.

------
jqm
I dunno. There's a balance. Kindness in some situations just isn't the right
thing. But it certainly is in most situations.

------
kamilszybalski
Don't they also call this empathy. I think it's critically important to resist
the temptation to fire back at someone the moment you think you disagree. Take
a few seconds, repeat in your head what the other person has said, then repeat
that back to the person, then formulate a response. Remember, the hardest
thing to do is to control your emotions, especially during times where most
people can't help but get defensive.

------
ryan-allen
I don't necessarily think I'm 'that great engineer', but I sure could take
this advice.

------
vorg
But do you be kind to some of your coworkers all of the time, and all of your
coworkers some of the time?

------
mdconner
Working at Facebook does not make you an authority on any of the things he's
talking about...

------
hit8run
I wonder how this could be news to someone? Usually you learn this at
kindergarten.

------
doctorstupid
And yet the opening paragraph of the about page is still fairly pretentious.

------
wehadfun
This guy has a 3 letter domain for his personal blog. How did he land that?

~~~
scott_karana
WHOIS shows this:

Registered On February 08, 1999

I guess availability was better then, or he made some good cash in the .dot
era and bought it outright from someone else?

------
ofir_geller
bug report: In the article search type in some non English chars like : "אאא".
JavaScript exception then breaks the search for good, this must be the first
search you make.

------
diminoten4
Whoa, this hit a little closer to home than I would have liked...

------
datashovel
There is such a fine line between "hearing" and "listening". In the same
respect there is such a fine line between someone "being taught" something,
and that same person "wanting to learn".

------
neverartful
Nice article. When did the golden rule get invalidated?

~~~
thisisboz
The Golden Rule (treating others as you want to be treated) isn't actually
very good. I prefer the Platinum Rule (treat others as THEY want to be
treated)

~~~
duderific
Yes, the Golden Rule is good, because it assumes that you are the same as the
other person (generally most people want to be treated with kindness and
respect), rather than assuming that they are somehow different from you.

~~~
KaoruAoiShiho
Agree with the Platinum rule. If you meet a big variety of people you'll learn
fast that they want to be treated differently. There's a lot of room for
social or cultural differences in humanity.

Just as an obvious example, the golden rule is why a lot of guys send dick
pics.

------
spullara
Took a long time for me to learn this important lesson. You can be right and
someone else be wrong and get the right outcome without hurting them.

------
ridgeguy
OT, but I want to thank everyone for their comments. I've found them unusually
thoughtful and challenging. Merci.

------
kind_throwaway
I've heard this feedback from time-to-time - generally a very nice guy, but I
strive to be rational, ego-less and results-oriented. "Be Kind", I couldn't
agree more, but here are 3 nuances I've had trouble reconciling when applying
this mindset, maybe you've had experience that could be helpful?

1\. Stress & Results. Sometimes being kind can get in the way, and directly
lead to a loss of results or respect from others. You wouldn't be kind to
someone trying to convince you not to run out of a burning building. As the
author says "when I'm under stress.."

"Because a lot of his value, when you’re making giant decisions for huge
amounts of money, is saying, ‘Why aren’t you f-ing considering this and this
and this?’" \- Ben Horowitz on his A16Z partner from "Tomorrow’s Advance Man"
in The New Yorker.

There are times when we weight effectiveness above feelings when we think
about impacting others, so where's the right line? What if one person's stress
threshold is higher than another's? What if one employee is less stressed
because they just don't care about your company that much?

2\. Passive Aggressiveness. "but more inhibited members of the team avoid any
discussions with him". In an ideal growth culture, every member is giving open
feedback in context, in real-time. For someone seeking the "truth", nothing is
more unkind that passive aggressive behavior.

imo, the CTO f-ed up here.. instead of pointing the finger at Boz, should have
focused on creating an environment where the process for resolution is true
candor and real-time feedback for team improvement. That letter arose from a
process of gossip, rolling into back-room conversations, rolling into a
secret, anonymous survey, which led to a HR meeting w/ Boz. A better process
is to set expectations for interactions and behavior amongst the whole team.
It is cool that the CTO found a way to give some direct feedback and spur
Boz's own thinking, just not best process outcome for team.

Everyone needs to know how to respect one another's feelings.. both the guy
who is callous, and the guy who is sensitive. A manager responding to the
passive aggressiveness of a sensitive team member is naturally going to
sympathize more, but the squeaky wheel doesn't point to the root cause and is,
in fact, rewarding unkindness.

3\. "Kids Crying for No Reason" \- google it. Is it kind to take pictures and
laugh at kids crying? Have you ever been in a situation where you felt your
co-workers emotions were perhaps unwarranted, unnecessary, or misapplied? Does
your employer screen employees for the appropriateness of their emotional
reactions in the kinds of situations you will interact with them?

How can you take responsibility for how your actions affect others if you have
a co-worker who is upset about the workplace equivalent of "I flushed my poop
before I could look at it"?

~~~
andrewstuart
Passive aggressive behaviour is the direct outcome of someone being on the
receiving end of dominating or controlling behaviour. If you don't want people
to avoid saying what they think to you then you cannot crush them under the
weight of your overbearing manner.

------
zallarak
This is a phenomenal read and a great reminder to be nice.

------
sova
tremendous. truly.

------
pcarolan
amen

------
buckbova
I'm definitely more patient than I was a decade ago, but I still have little
use for useless people.

I don't feel like I have to be kind to those who aren't motivated to
contribute and do thoughtful work.

~~~
PhasmaFelis
Have you considered the possibility that some of your people are unmotivated
_because_ you act like a jerk to them, and you're perpetuating the problem?

If you'll forgive me quoting my own post
([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9117035](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9117035)):
A couple of jobs back, I met with a supervisor to proudly tell him that a
gigantic, exhausting project I'd been working on for the last nine months was
finally ready to deploy. His response, almost verbatim, was "Cool. Here's what
I need you to do next..." I found it nearly impossible to care about what he
wanted for the rest of my time there. 60 seconds' worth of interest and
congratulations would have gotten dozens of hours of extra productivity out of
me.

------
benihana
This hits so close to home for me personally. I recently got some feedback
that seemed very similar (it seemed much more useful and constructive than
what boz got) and I recently had a similar realization about my friends
putting up with me.

Thanks for writing and publishing this. It's very good.

~~~
midnightmonster
If you received or find good ways to actually make these changes, please write
about it.

~~~
benihana
Thanks for the encouragement, I think I might.

------
michaelvkpdx
Good post, but since learning how to be kind isn't on Google's list of things
you need to know before becoming an engineer, it's not an important skill.
Right, HN?

------
jackmaney
The older I get, the more amazed I am at how truly difficult it can be to be
consistently kind.

------
mucker
Baloney. What we have is a culture that has largely undermined the concept of
constructive and well structured argument. One should read the exchanges
between friendimies GK Chesterton and George Bernard Shaw. They respected each
other and were friendly but if you read their output about each other they
would be fired today. Why?

We are pansies.

We assume, wrongly, that argument about ideas and even light jabs at the
person are tragic. They are not.

Worse we have enshrined that into law in most places with "hostile work
environments". Some ideas deserve to die and you only discover that through
_vigorous_ debate.

Do we have to be pricks about it? Probably not. Should we fire pricks that are
often right? Absolutely not.

~~~
jasonwocky
> Some ideas deserve to die and you only discover that through _vigorous_
> debate.

Patently false.

~~~
oh_sigh
You should provide more insight. I understand that you disagree with the
statement, but you aren't really doing anything to prove your point. Granted,
the original poster didn't do much to prove their claim either.

~~~
jasonwocky
I thought it was obvious on its face that "vigorous debate" isn't the "only"
way that bad ideas end up dying. In fact, plenty of bad ideas have come out of
vigorous debate.

~~~
oh_sigh
The poster never said vigorous debate is the only way that bad ideas die.

They said that vigorous debate is the only way that _some_ bad ideas die.

------
zk00006
This guy wants to be super cool and cover just everything. Be kind, be super
programmer, have tattoo, write blog ... Thinking about the post, I quite
understand why people don't want to work with such _superheroes_. Kind will
not make it if it is one _other_ thing you want to be good at. Don't show off
too much will do.

~~~
eclipxe
That's kinda...uncalled for. Seems like you have personal issues with him?
What does having a tattoo have to do with anything, or am I missing something?

~~~
zk00006
Personal? No sir.

------
diminoten
Whoa, this hit way too close to home...

------
stonogo
Having never heard of this person before, I've done about ten minutes of
research into who he is and why (in the words of his own about page) I should
care.

I've come up empty. It seems like he's got enough money now that he feels like
engaging in some verbal philanthropy. That's fine, but does anyone have any
concrete reasons I should prioritize reading his output over others?

~~~
ck425
That his article has over a 1000 points on HN is probably a pretty good reason
if you tend to enjoy reading HN.

------
zxxz
I don't agree with the author.

Did that my first sentence above just hurt the feelings of the author or or
many of the readers over here? Please read on.

This kind of philosophies (be kind-hearted, be tolerant etc) are the ones
making humanity loose their natural vigor and push people into unnatural soft-
minded, lame and vulnerable population.

These self-restricting rules makes you neutral and weak against someone who
goes by natural and wild instincts. This is what is happening in the case of
extremism of different kinds. The natural attitude always wins.

Be yourself. Be natural. Don't let your supremacy go without gains. Don't
impose restrictions on yourself, just to please others.

Look at this. The author says that the other people didn't like him because
the author was always right and winning without regard to the feelings of the
people who lost the argument. But still those people complain about the winner
and forces the winner to mend his ways, just by holding team work to ransom,
instead of improving their own thinking. And the author and his boss asks us
to give in such unfair play.

Sometimes I feel most of the men in the developed world are feminized
(weakened or neutralized) by their schooling and social restrictions. They are
forced to present themselves always in a very pleasant form to others, instead
of their natural form. Being social and well-mannered is taken to a little too
far, and creating the lame populations all over world.

Please, let the better thought win and prevail. Don't let it loose to the
unfair demands by the weak minds who don't want to accept the legitimate
supremacy of others.

~~~
pekk
I don't agree with you.

I don't know what your environment is like, but I notice a lot of people who
are pointlessly aggressive and competitive, or who premise their aggression on
being right about something they're actually wrong about. That doesn't make
these people stronger and it doesn't make the world better. It would work
better if everyone just focused on doing their own best job, and constantly
checked themselves for correctness, rather than acting like they're never
wrong, tearing other people down and trying to make themselves look better
than they are. Those activities are not producing anything real.

Most of the time we are really all just trying to get by and perhaps achieve
some shared goal, there is no game to win, and the people who are acting that
way are just being asshats. It is not somehow clear-minded and objective to
constantly strive for "supremacy" by aggression toward others, it's just
messed-up and insecure.

(And what gives with implying that weakness is inherent to women? That's
something that has no proof at all.)

~~~
zxxz
Women are not weaker? Ofcourse, physically they are. Otherwise why do we have
sport events segregated by sex? There is a reason why they are weaker sex.

This one more instance how everyone has been educated/trained to pretend that
women are not weaker. And how women are educated to feel offended if they are
called weaker sex.

~~~
pekk
That has nothing to do with the earlier discussion, which wasn't about
physical strength and wasn't about women being offended. You made a claim, and
you were challenged to provide any support of that claim. You have not
provided any support for it; and where you could have admitted you were unsure
or withdrawn the claim, you tried to change the subject.

This is silly, and I'm done with this thread.

~~~
zxxz
Remember, you have stated that women are not weaker and even asked for a
proof. When I provided a proof for physical strength, you say something
incoherent.

Ok - So let's see if women are equally strong mentally at least. How many
great thinkers, world leaders, mathematicians or philosophers are out there
who are women? You might say - oh they were suppressed through ages, which
again proves that point that they are weaker. No point in not taking things at
their face value. What's wrong for someone to accept they are weaker if they
really are?

