

Ask HN: Am I wrong to spend 'extra time' on things? - Buddy7878

I'm a Developer of web apps working at a startup, and I'm passionate about UI design. I regularly get praised for apps I make because of the extra touches and good design, but primarily I'm developing some sophisticated apps with 90% of the time spent on the backend code. At this point most of the apps are R&#38;D prototypes. It kind of makes me feel bad as other developers who are way smarter than me don't get any praise for just delivering the functionality which was asked for in the spec; either they don't have the UI skills to show off, they don't think a good UI is important, or they are more experienced and less rebelious!<p>If I'm creating an app which may take 10 hours, I'll make sure I spend a good hour or two on top of that making it look great and usable! These two things are never asked for, quite the opposite in fact. Sometimes I do this bit in my own time.<p>The problem is, on every project now I'm getting told by my peers "don't spend any extra time on this", "nothing fancy", "knock this up as quick as possible, we'll do design if the client likes it". I often ignore this advice, as sometimes these apps are demos sales guys are showing off to prospective clients, if I didn't provide a good design then I wouldn't be motivated to do my job, I just don't agree with the decision. To back this up even more, when I disobey this advice I don't get told off, often the feedback is very positive simply because of the 'extra time' I've put in! If the sales team come back with good feedback, it cancels out the imminent telling off I was about to get from my technical manager. It seems no matter how important I prove the UI design is, I'm getting increasingly pressured to forget it, and if it were upto my peers every app I produce would have no stylesheet, Times new Roman fonts on a white background with raw HTML tables!<p>This is starting to affect my motivation and I'm constantly hiding photoshop and anything with color on it if someone important is looking! I need a job where spending a little time to make things usable and attractive is ok. Am I being too rebelious here? Should I raise this formally with my manager?<p>Thanks in advance for the help guys.
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devs1010
You need to talk to your manager and bring up your concerns, there's no reason
to continue being "on separate pages", you need to both get on the same page.
If they are telling you to do one thing, you do another, and then get praised
for it, and this is happening consistently you need to bring it up to
understand exactly whats going on, either they really don't care that much and
are leaving it to your discretion or there could be friction developing behind
the scenes. At my current job we have weekly one on one meetings with the
manager to bring any issues up and something like this would be a good topic
for a one on one discussion. You don't want to get in the habit of doing more
work than is needed, also, if you want to pursue UI development then consider
finding a job that wants and appreciates that. The more complex the server-
side coding becomes the less room there is for a "jack of all trades" so it
really just depends on where you want your focus to go in your career. That
said, a UI guy who has programming experience and understanding of server-side
development, in my opinion, is always going to have a leg up on someone who
doesn't

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arkitaip
It's odd how we all agree that Apple's relentless focus on quality - from the
very first day when Woz spent all those hours creating beautiful internal
hardware that no one every saw to today's Apple that frets about creating hi-
fi prototypes with actual data and not lorem ipsum - is key to their success
and yet we seldom invest resources in achieving that level of quality.

On the other hand, things work different in startup land. You need to make
sure that they work you put in has actual value and doesn't steal time from
other, high priority work. This sometimes means creating stuff that might not
reflect our level of expertise or be align with our ideals.

Ultimately, you need to find a balance between these two extremes. A balance
that _you personally_ can live with because each end of the spectrum is
equally valid. If you find that your core beliefs clash with the rest of your
startup, maybe you should start looking for a startup that prioritizes design
and user experience much more.

~~~
Buddy7878
Agree 100% about the Apple philosophy, great comment.

I understand about pressures. However, I've worked at a big company, small,
and now at a startup, and none of them seem to have time to focus on quality.
Maybe I've just been unlucky, and that the Apples of this world are a very
rare breed. It could also be argued that it's more important for a startup to
focus on quality, especially if entering a crowded market?

Thanks for the advice, you're right it's all about balance. It's not all bad,
there are some people at my company who love spending time on user experience,
but at the moment they just don't fight for the cause. Hopefully when things
get a big less hectic (if that ever happens) there will be time for
improvement in this area.

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dirkdeman
In today's world, deadlines are everything. And it has been my experience that
deadlines are getting tighter and tighter. So I understand where your manager
comes from, he just want you to finish the project in the shortest amount of
time.

However, having a sense of design and wanting to make eveything you do a cut
above the rest are admireable qualities in my point of view. I'm sure there
are loads of companies who will actually appreciate this. If you're having fun
at your job, discuss it with your manager. If he just wants a code monkey,
tell him there are loads of them, and that this position at this job are not
for you.

~~~
Buddy7878
That's really valuable advice, thank you.

I've only got a few years' experience so I guess I don't yet know what it's
like to be managing deadlines from above. I do know that if I ever was, I
would not be able to sacrifice what I'm passionate about in order to guarantee
to meet deadlines. I would always rather risk delivering great products a bit
late than deliver average products on time. I know that doesn't make sense for
larger businesses right now but if I ever have a startup of my own that's how
I'd want it to be from the beginning!

Cheers

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revorad
A programmer with design skills? You're a rare species. I'm sure a lot of
startups would hire you in a heartbeat. So, maybe you should look for a job
where your skills and work ethics will be more appreciated and properly paid
for.

~~~
Buddy7878
I know design skills are becoming more common, but for now I guess I'm
fortunate to have other options as you suggest. I guess I just need to know if
that side of my work IS appreciated. Thanks for the advice.

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noahc
One thing that might be useful is can you make things look polished
(relatively) in less time by using something like Twitter BootStrap, etc.

Are you adjusting the last margin to make things pixel perfect and are you
fretting over two different fonts that to my mother look about the same? Then
they are probably right.

However, are you focusing on 50,000 foot page layout issues that the client is
going to see. Then you're probably doing them a service.

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amorphid
The key to being a good employee is showing that you can do what you are asked
to do. If the company needs quick and dirty mock ups, do that. You can always
show them what polished mock ups, too. If they don't value the polished
versions, you can learn to take pride in your ability to do quick and dirty,
because that too is a skill.

Learn to focus on what business problem your job solves.

------
iqster
Don't stop being awesome.

~~~
Buddy7878
I won't!

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bmelton
One thing you might also consider, and please don't take this personally,
cause I might be way off -- It could be that you're slow, or perhaps, that the
'extra effort' you're putting in to things means that they're missing
deadlines or are unable to start the next thing.

The key comment though is amorphid's, I think, that you're being paid to do
what you're told. If that makes you unhappy, then as mentioned, there are
probably a ton of places that would be happy to have you.

Before that happens, I would have a conversation with your boss and see why
they keep asking for the rush treatment. If it's a deficiency with you, that's
something you can work on and improve. If it's because they don't understand
the value of a good design, that's something you can work with them on and
hopefully improve their understanding. It might be that there's a bigger
mission that your boss knows that you don't? It could also be that they're
idiots and you're not.

Either way, I would put as much care into the working relationship as you
already do the work itself.

~~~
Buddy7878
It could indeed be that I'm slow compared to other developers, although I
think that's unlikely. I guess I'll have to have a word and find out for sure.

Thanks for the advice.

