
The Remarkable Brain Waves of High Level Meditators [video] - kawera
https://kottke.org/18/11/the-remarkable-brain-waves-of-high-level-meditators
======
pcpcpc
For those who are interested and new to meditation, I started meditating
several years ago with Headspace and YouTube videos of Jonathan Kabat Zinn and
others. It's a great place to start.

I later went on a silent meditation retreat and learned a lot more about
meditation and got confident with techniques I could practice on my own. This
may not be available to everyone due to the time commitment (and being
completely disconnected during this time), but it really cemented my
meditation practice.

These days I meditate on my own as well as attend meditation groups (in
traditions that I feel connected to). I strive to meditate on my own daily but
don't stick to it (ironically meditating has helped me be ok with that
inconsistency). While meditating on my own is very helpful, the groups are
what really help me stick to the practice. I get a lot from other people's
questions and comments and the teachers' responses. I highly recommended
finding a group (in a tradition you are open to) if you are just starting out
or have an existing meditation practice and want to maintain and develop it.

In the grand scheme, I'm early on and not a "high level" meditator, but
sharing one data point, meditation has been pretty life changing for me in
terms of dealing with minor mood disorders (depression and anxiety), feeling
happier (and recognizing it when I am), and treating others with compassion.
It's all still a work in progress.

I'll end with a common phrase. May everyone reading this be happy and free.

~~~
puranjay
In practical terms, how do you feel meditation has changed you?

Curious to learn more

~~~
tvladeck
Not the OP, but have a similar story. According to my goal-tracking apps, I
meditate about 65% of days, and I average about 10 minutes a day. (So, not a
ton, but pretty consistent.)

The most common way that meditation changes me is to help me identify that I'm
in a rumination cycle and to break out of it, and to be more present in
certain moments. For me, it's not that I have noticed a baseline change, but
rather that it's a skill that's super-helpful in key moments. Some examples:

\- When my mind is racing while trying to sleep

\- In moments of anger or frustration when I'm ruminating about some slight or
when someone has reneged on a committment

\- Noticing that I'm distracted or anxious when out with friends or at a
concert

~~~
the_clarence
It makes me think that meditation could just be practicing to put your mind in
a quiet place. Whenever you are in a bad place, if you’ve trained well, it’s
easy to grt back to that quiet place of your mind.

~~~
iandanforth
Yep, the skill is "refocusing." I thought it was going to be the skill of
"focusing" at first, but as the parent notes you first have to develop the
skill of noticing that your mind has wandered, or is locked on something you
don't want it to be, then you expend effort to refocus and then maintain that
new intentional focus. I also had no idea how damn hard it is.

------
SirensOfTitan
To me, there is no better guide to meditation from start to advanced than
Culadasa’s book “The Mind Illuminated”. I suggest it to nearly everyone I
can—it breaks down the meditation process into concrete stages, skills to
practice, and issues that may arise along the way.

~~~
thisisit
I bought this book recently because I was at a stumbling block - my mind going
completely numb due to focus and nearly falling asleep. So, I can see why
people recommend it as a meditation text.

But, when I loaned my copy to a friend, he disliked it. He read it like a book
and found the text to be too dense. So, while it is a good text I think anyone
buying it needs some background into meditation and go stage by stage instead
of reading it cover to cover.

~~~
justinpombrio
> instead of reading it cover to cover

Yes! I also highly recommend the book, but it is a _technical manual_ for the
mind. If you try to read it cover-to-cover, most of what you read is going to
be meditation techniques that are months or years away from being useful to
you, and models of the mind that are far removed from your current
experiences.

Like, feel free to read the whole thing _if you want to_ , but be aware that
it's akin to reading the C++ spec as a beginning programmer. The mind isn't
simple.

------
weliketocode
I just don't get it.

It's difficult enough to spend 1000's of hours on honing my craft. How can I
possibly justify that sort of investment in meditation?

If you tell me it helps those with sleep issues, mental blocks, psychological
issues, or addiction, your point is well taken and understood. But for those
of us blessed to be in relatively sound mind, how will we benefit from
meditation?

~~~
Zelphyr
It will improve your craft and you don’t need to allocate time away from the
latter to do so. You can do both at the same time.

Put more simply; when you’re doing the dishes, do the dishes. Focus on the
sensation of the water on your hands and the movement of your muscles as you
scrub and dry them. When your mind wanders away from that as it tends to do,
acknowledge that your mind has wandered and gently bring it back to what
you’re doing. That’s meditation.

Likewise, when you’re working on honing your craft, notice when your mind
wanders away from the task at hand and gently bring it back in focus when that
happens without judgement.

You’ll find that doing this will help you hone your craft in ways you’ve never
considered.

~~~
shaklee3
I'm not sure I understand that analogy. When I'm doing the dishes I've never
had my mind wander to where it adversely affects me doing the dishes. Is it
just a way to focus better?

~~~
joelhooks
It’s just focusing on the moment, not something to really master the art and
craft of cleaning dishes. Dishes is just an example activity that many might
find venal, but is an opportunity to practice mindfulness

------
lettergram
Interesting, a few friends and I attempted to launch a startup a few years
back looking to improve meditation and focus using neurofeedback:
[http://synaptitude.me/](http://synaptitude.me/)

Even went so far as to launch a Kickstarter [1]. We had quite a bit of
interest, but we didn't feel we had enough sign ups or people interested to
take a risk (all of us having been offered jobs and having student debt).

The trouble, is most of these studies have too low of an N number and/or the
equipment has trouble at the higher frequencies. That's actually part of why
we were launching the startup. We had a way to do error correction for those
frequencies and by providing value via applications, we could open a secondary
market to do experiments with a larger N number.

IMO until something like this exists, I take most studies worth a grain of
salt.

[1]
[https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/synaptitude/thinksuite-...](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/synaptitude/thinksuite-
brainware-not-software?ref=user_menu)

~~~
dwaltrip
Can you please spell out your technical critique of the equipment? You are
saying that they don't reliably measure gamma waves?

~~~
lettergram
To capture gamma waves you need to have something that samples at least 200
times per second on the low end 400 times per second on the higher end. This
is a minimum, preferably you'd be sampling 1000 times per second. Most EEGs
sample between 240 - 500 times per second. This is due to the way FFTs work.

Now this does not include noise OR sensor sensitivity, which for reference
you'll see from things like electrical (ranging from 50 - 60 hz), which
incidentally is the same as gamma waves. You'll also have movement, heart
beats, static, equipment interference, electrical signals from looking at
things, etc. Etc.

This is why you need more sampling the higher you go, because the sensors have
errors due to sensitivity already, plus you add a bunch of interference, at a
lower sample rate, than say beta waves (which are 12 - 30 hz).

Essentially, the more potential for errors the higher N number you need. I
never used gamma waves in experiments due to the lack of statical relevance.

~~~
petra
What's the technical problem in measuring a differential signal at a 1000
samples/sec, plus removing noise and amplifying it ? It's a common analog
electronics problem.

And if it's not technically complicated, why does nobody do this ?

~~~
lettergram
It's a very difficult problem, first lets just look at data throughput:

1000 samples/sec, 4 bytes per sample, 32 nodes - that's 128Kb / second. Not
crazy by any means. However, you then have to process that... That's doing an
FFT + binning (in the case of brain waves). All doable at probably 60 FPS
(where a frame is the prior 1 - 3 seconds).

Still not a problem, then try to do error correction! You have 32 sensors,
what's real, what's an artifact? That's when things slow way down typically.
This type of analysis can be done after the fact and you essentially guess at
errors. Removing known issues or more likely from a research perspective they
just mark those sections of the data and remove them.

Here's where what we built comes in:

[http://synaptitude.me/blog/using-computer-vision-to-
improve-...](http://synaptitude.me/blog/using-computer-vision-to-improve-eeg-
signals/)

The above is all about post processing, however, I managed to improve the
method and write a proof-of-concept for a real-time application that removes
artifacts in EEG signals, BUT leaves the underlying signal (AKA you don't need
to throw away the whole sample). This can function to capture error corrected
brain waves at 50 Hz with 512 samples per second + a 50hz video stream.
Probably could do more.

This is extremely technically complicated and probably took a year or so to
develop. This enables real-time stream (50Kb / second) to our hosted server
and real-time applications:

[http://synaptitude.me/blog/view-brainwave-data-thinksuite-
io...](http://synaptitude.me/blog/view-brainwave-data-thinksuite-io/)

Unfortunately, I couldn't find someone willing to support the work further,
and even though we had maybe 30 people vouching $300 each. That wasn't enough
to continue the work. Most of this work concluded in early 2017.

For reference, I may apply for an SBIR grant coming up to fund additional work
on this (my wife started graduate school, utilizing EEGs, so it aligns pretty
well).

Honestly, if anyone is interested in this please let me know. Its an area of
interest, just couldn't justify the expense or time investment (now working on
this: [https://hnprofile.com/](https://hnprofile.com/))

~~~
bakul
[http://web.mit.edu/6.111/www/f2017/handouts/FFTtutorial12110...](http://web.mit.edu/6.111/www/f2017/handouts/FFTtutorial121102.pdf)
shows an FFT implementation using a Cyclone EP2C20 FPGA. It can do 50ksps, 1K
points, 12bit precision, 100 µsec/1K complex FFT @ 50Khz clock. May be a Zynq
can be used to build a standalone device?

I wonder if the EEG signals can tell if your attention wanders. That may help
improve meditation.

Have you looked at/played with the Muse or Muse2 EEG headband?

~~~
lettergram
That's exactly what we were doing (without an FPGA), you need at least 8
sensors to properly localize attention though (based on our experiments).
Things like the Muse I highly doubt work effectively

~~~
shaklee3
Coming from the RF world, those numbers honestly seem trivial for processing.
Is it just a money issue or is nobody willing to build something like you did?

~~~
Erlich_Bachman
Muse Headband did, and they have a finished working retail product which
reliably improves meditation practice. I've tried it personally. (No
affiliation.)

~~~
shaklee3
Thanks. Love your show.

------
skilled
I was staying at a yoga retreat in Cambodia back in 2015. Meditation was done
twice a day for 30+ minutes. I was familiar with meditation for a number of
year's already, but a lot of the attendees were "first timers".

Not every day, but on some days we would share our experiences with the group
after the meditation was over.

One of the women who had never meditated before, had the biggest smile on her
face and goes, "Meditation is amazing! I managed to plan my next three
vacations." \-- this is a word for word quote.

Is it amusing? Yes, very! Is it meditation? Not at all.

Try to hold focus on an imaginary object during meditation. It's honestly not
that simple.

~~~
wiz21c
I don't get what you mean in this sentence :

>> Try to hold focus on an imaginary object during meditation.

Could you explain what kind of "action" it is (or non action, I don't known
anything about meditation except for clichés) ?

~~~
all2
It is continual refocus. At least it is for me.

I don't focus on an imaginary object; rather, I use my breath. But Just
focusing on how my breath feels going through my nose is hard. I get
distracted by all sorts of things; the next door neighbors fighting again, the
assignments I didn't work on yesterday, the friend I just started talking to
again.

So, I refocus on my breathing again.

------
perseusprime11
There is an alternative to Meditation. If all the problems & thoughts happen
due to our mind. Take mind out of the equation and become mindless instead of
mindful. Do not listen to your mind. Do not trust it. Just watch it. Rely on a
solid process to make decisions but do not let your mind inject bias into the
decision making process.over time, things will come naturally to you as a
second nature like riding a bike where you don’t need the mind. Just chuckle
when your mind tells you something because you now know our mind operates from
a place of fear and uncertainty.

~~~
collyw
That just sounds like an alternative form of mediation. There are a lot of
variations out there.

>Just chuckle when your mind tells you something because you now know our mind
operates from a place of fear and uncertainty.

That sounds like what Buddhists or psyconauts describe as the ego, rather than
the mind.

~~~
perseusprime11
Ego resides in mind. Isn’t it?

~~~
collyw
Sure but its isn't your mind. Just an aspect of it (that often causes
problems).

I had an interesting experience with psychedelics where my ego revealed itself
as a kind of front or mask that I put on to impress other people. The
personality that I reveal to the public. There was a whole other deeper part
of my mind that was able to observe that. That was actually what got me
started meditating.

~~~
perseusprime11
Thank you for sharing your experience. I am curious- how did your ego reveal
itself during your experience with psychedelics? What form did it take? How
did it talk to you?

~~~
collyw
Its strange, its was like two parts of my mind talking to each other (as in
inner talk). The closest I could describe it when you do something wrong and
reflect on yourself / your actions, except it's in the present rather than the
past. As I say, like two parts of my personality talking to themselves, though
the non ego side was definitely a lot deeper, more objective and seemed like
my "true self".

(Psychedelics are definitely strange, the hallucinations come and go. At some
points like that one I felt quite "with it", just inner talk. Often once you
have "sorted out" things like that the pleasant stuff live visions begin,
though I think they affect everyone differently).

------
SagelyGuru
As a life-long meditator, I have this to say: the conclusion, emphasising
"less attached view of the self" is absolutely right. There is a strong
correlation of this with "olympic level" meditation. However, it is generally
difficult to say which causes which. Luckily, meditation is about simplicity,
not complications.

------
vbuwivbiu
What do these 'meditators' do for a living ?

How can they afford to spend their days sitting down doing essentially nothing
?

Could they do this high-level mediation in a busy office with people on phone
meetings all around them ?

~~~
AltruisticGap
Put very curedly, they're getting high.

And, everybody's getting high.

Life is about pleasure.

If you found out that you can feel really, really good by sitting and doing
nothing... would you do it? Of course you would. :)

Now the stark reality however, is that to be able to sit and meditate properly
requires to be already at home in the body. Any amount of trauma will make
that particularly difficult. As soon as you sit, you have to work through
restlessness, anxiety, and myriad of other unpleasant states of mind. And they
all come up.. it's like a purge of the nervous system.

In fact I was just recently reading an article about the unexpected side
effects of meditation. This is not talked about enough.

Meditation Is a Powerful Mental Tool—and For Some People It Goes Terribly
Wrong

[https://tonic.vice.com/en_us/article/vbaedd/meditation-
is-a-...](https://tonic.vice.com/en_us/article/vbaedd/meditation-is-a-
powerful-mental-tool-and-for-some-it-goes-terribly-wrong)

edit: forgot this beautiful quote: "First, you chase the truth. Then truth
chases you".

~~~
vbuwivbiu
"If you found out that you can feel really, really good by sitting and doing
nothing... would you do it? Of course you would. :)"

Nope, I'd go for walk. Meditation is passive and lazy. Being outside in nature
with the sounds of the birds and the UV light, being actually connected with
the universe, being alive.

~~~
crispinb
> Meditation is passive and lazy

It truly is neither. "Passive" meditation would be daydreaming, which all
meditation techniques aim to minimise. Hardly 'lazy' either - retreat drop-out
rates are high precisely because it can be really, really hard to muster the
will to maintain the required discpline for hours (and days) at at time.

> Nope, I'd go for walk

Most meditation traditions include walking practises.

------
atlih
I have used Alan Watts guided meditation every other morning for 10 months
now. It has changed my life.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPpUNAFHgxM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPpUNAFHgxM)

~~~
perseusprime11
Thank you for sharing this video. I meditated today using this video. What a
great experience? Are there more videos like this from Alan Watts? This one
put me right in the meditative state.

~~~
tim333
I was looking and there are some more on the same youtube channel. As Watts
died in 1973 I presume the videos were mixed posthumously.

------
johnjohnsmith
Meditation as an Olympic event.

Meditation as competition.

Meditation as vehicle to sell products.

Yup, meditation has come to America full-force.

------
paulsutter
For graphs and data, this published paper[1] is referenced by the book
mentioned in the article. I quote the book below[2], which has only slightly
more detail than the article (I bought the book hoping to see more data, a
waste)

[1]
[http://www.pnas.org/content/101/46/16369.full.pdf](http://www.pnas.org/content/101/46/16369.full.pdf)

Long-term meditators self-induce high-amplitude gamma synchrony during mental
practice. Antoine Lutz, Lawrence L. Greischar, Nancy B. Rawlings, Matthieu
Ricard, and Richard J. Davidson

[2] (from the book)

"Gamma, the very fastest brain wave, occurs when differing brain regions fire
in harmony, like moments of insight when different elements of a mental puzzle
“click” together… In the yogis, gamma oscillations are a far more prominent
feature of their brain activity than in other people… on average the yogis had
twenty-five times greater amplitude gamma oscillations during baseline
compared to the control group.

"No brain lab had ever before seen gamma oscillations that persist for minutes
rather than split seconds, are so strong, and are in synchrony across
widespread regions of the brain.

------
mcshicks
I've been a zen student for maybe 12 years now, my meditation practice is not
100% consistent, but conservatively I average 30 minutes a day, which wolfram
alpha tells me is a little more than 2000 hours. Pretty far from Olympic
level. A few years ago I borrowed a muse (a low cost eeg that connects to your
phone to help "train" your meditation) from somebody and played around doing
direct captures to make spectrograms. I was curious about if I could actually
see any correlation between what I subjectively considered samadhi and the
spectrograms. Didn't see anything. Granted the muse only has 4 contacts and
the guy in the picture has many more. Anyway I did the math and to get to
62000 I think it's more like 12 hours a day for the next 12 years..

------
yoble
The book they mention, Altered Traits, is a great read for those interested in
what hard facts the numerous studies on the subject have yielded so far (+
some nice stories about "olympic level meditators").

The authors make a point of painstakingly explaining why these kind of studies
are hard to conduct, what a good one looks like and why they had to discard
~99% of them to write the book because of statistical insufficiency, lack of
proper methodology etc. At a time when many meditation apps claim to be
"science based" I found this quite relevant.

They both are proficient in meditation and have been associated with the
western scene very early on. It's mostly about mindfulness/vipasana meditation
since that's the subject of the majority of the medical studies.

~~~
kieranmaine
I second this. I just finished this book and it was excellent - however the
edition I read is called "The science of mediation". They're very honest about
which studies provide robust evidence and really quantify what the benefits of
meditation are. They also delved into the 4 "neural pathways" meditation
transforms. I've been meditating for 3.5 years and it was a real eye opener
reading about how the different techniques I use affect different parts of my
brain.

A highly recommended read!

------
damontal
Gil Fronsdal's intro to meditation is a great series -
[https://www.audiodharma.org/series/1/talk/1762/](https://www.audiodharma.org/series/1/talk/1762/)

------
jamescostian
> Olympic level meditators ... gamma very strong all the time

These gamma waves have high frequencies, and point to a LOT of things
happening in one's mind at once. I'm not sure if that's the goal of
meditation? Also, a meta analysis of ASD (autism spectrum disorder) showed
that "The most consistent result that could lead to a generalization is an
increase in absolute gamma power in ASD compared to non-ASD subjects", and
that conclusion was based on 4 different studies

Source:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5506073/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5506073/)

~~~
gchamonlive
I share the thought that Olympic is an unfortunate word to describe long term
meditators. At least in vipassana one does not meditate to get better at it,
because there is no getting better at, only the act of meditation. You get
better at not letting the mind wander of, but that is not the goal, just a
consequence of practicing meditation.

~~~
jamescostian
My comment wasn't about the article's word choice, it was about the fact that
if this article is correct, then there seems to be a link between meditation
and autism spectrum disorder (based on 4 studies showing strong gamma waves
being a great indicator of ASD).

Since many meditators say that meditation "cures you of mental illness", the
idea that the best meditators have ASD is probably something that meditators
would disagree with. Hence, I think meditators should be saying this article
is incorrect, and be up-in-arms about its findings. At the very least, the
basic fact that gamma waves are the ones with the most synapses (meaning your
brain is not at ease, but instead is working on overtime) combined with this
study (showing meditation to be linked to constant gamma waves) is at odds
with what meditators say meditation will do to a person (instead of calming
you down, it makes your brain work hard all the time). I'm not sure if the
problem is that they aren't really reading/understanding the words, or if
they're just ignoring their meanings in hopes of staying happy

~~~
gchamonlive
yet I believe that meditation is not a tool to calm the mind, but rather to
focus it. The mind is always active and meditation gives you the means to
shift the activity focus to something healthier, even if it means that the
mind is working harder at it.

When you meditate you are not disperse in a thoughtless slumber, that would be
the first stage of non-rem sleep, but rather completely focused. That might
explain the increase in gamma waves.

~~~
prophesi
Yeah, it's really just about having full control of your thoughts. Here's an
excerpt from Culudasa's The Mind Illuminated:

"You enter Stage Ten with all the qualities of śamatha: effortlessly stable
attention, mindfulness, joy, tranquility, and equanimity. At first these
qualities immediately fade after the meditation has ended. But as you continue
to practice, they persist longer and longer between meditation sessions.
Eventually they become the normal condition of the mind."

As for the gamma wave correlation, my guess is that the adept meditator is
actually taking in everything that goes on around them (due to powerful
mindfulness). While the layman is probably just thinking about what they'll
have for dinner as they navigate the world.

------
visarga
What I am interested to know is if meditation correlates with increased
ability to cope with life problems. Because many people treat it like a refuge
from the hardships of life, not a super boost in mental powers.

I have hardcore practiced meditation for 20 years and some of my colleagues
who were doing the same were in a pretty bad state - unmarried, with a low
level job and not owning their house. They weren't on average happier than
normal people.

I attribute their failure to the philosophy of detachment and switching from
normal life goals to 'spiritual goals'. It was all a bust. They were exploited
by the school under which we practiced. I had the good sense to keep my life
separate from the practice so I wasn't affected as much.

Maybe it's a problem of the school I followed, but the same idea of detachment
is part of all schools. In the end what matters is survival, and in today
society, it means building your career and family, not just sitting still.

To the down-voters: can you contradict me after 7000+ hours of meditation,
where you actually achieve the experiences mentioned in the ancient texts?
Meditation worked very well for me, it was the general direction that was bad.
We're supposed to maximise our rewards, including having children, not
replacing this with an artificial abstract goal. Our rewards are selected and
chiseled by evolution, they are what made us survive and thrive.

~~~
wallacoloo
> We're supposed to maximise our rewards, including having children, not
> replacing this with an artificial abstract goal. Our rewards are selected
> and chiseled by evolution, they are what made us survive and thrive.

Evolution is a thing which occurs at the group level. If you tell an
individual to be faithful to evolution, you're telling them "do what your
biology would cause for you to do!" Well, that's impossible to _not_ follow.
Every human ever born has acted in a manner which was faithful to evolution.

I’m not sure if I understood that right, but if you are trying to justify the
way you live because of evolution, then the point is this: it’s difficult to
claim that evolution shaped the way _you_ lived your life while simultaneously
claiming that it’s _not_ responsible for directing your peers to live the way
they have.

------
eagsalazar2
62,000 lifetime hours! That is insane!! That is about 3 hours average every
single day for 60 years!

~~~
mcbuilder
Not so insane if you consider meditation as important as sleeping or eating,
which a monk would. Also monks tend to get up at around 4AM to start the
morning meditation routine. They are also sleeping less.

------
albanberg
In the Viniyoga tradition, meditation is on an object that is chosen by a
teacher for their student. The object is chosen very carefully for the
situation of the student. The student works one on one with the teacher. There
are class situations, although these are for getting an introduction to the
tradition.

In this tradition, the meditation comes after the asana practice (yoga
exercises) in order to prepare the body and the mind for the meditation. I
have found this to be very effective.

~~~
amrx431
In original Patanjali Yogasutras, Yama, Niyama, Asana, Dharana are first to be
practiced and perfected.

~~~
albanberg
This is an interesting quote that I think is somewhat relevant:

“Can these four Yoga Aṅga – Yama, Niyama, Āsana, Prāṇāyāma – be practiced by
everyone at every stage of life? How often and how long should one practice?
How can we adapt our practice to changing circumstances? These questions and
others like them must be answered by a competent teacher, according to each
student’s individual circumstances.” – T Krishnamacharya’s commentary to Yoga
Sūtra Chapter One verse 30

------
preek
As a Zen Monk, my answer to “What does it mean?” would be: “If I tell you, I
deserve 30 blows. If I don’t tell you, I deserve 30 blows. Now, tell me: Why
did I say so!”

Zen Monk Alain M. Lafon, headmonk of Lambda Zen Temple of Glarus, Switzerland
[https://zen-temple.net/zen-temples/lambda-zen-temple/introdu...](https://zen-
temple.net/zen-temples/lambda-zen-temple/introduction/)

~~~
eezurr
I would guess that what the monk is communicating is that to think about "what
does it mean" is to separate oneself from the meaning (i.e. the experience),
which is the opposite of Zen. The goal is for you to be your true self. There
is no true self in figuring out the meaning of something. Meaning comes from
personally conducting the chaos of one's life (which is "the way"). To
philosophize (or similar) something is to step too far into order (e.g.
classifying objects instead of seeing an object as an action/existence), and
to submit, yield, or do nothing is to step too far into chaos.

~~~
noamelf
> There is no true self in figuring out the meaning of something. Meaning
> comes from personally conducting the chaos of one's life (which is "the
> way"). To philosophize (or similar) something is to step too far into order
> (e.g. classifying objects instead of seeing an object as an
> action/existence), and to submit, yield, or do nothing is to step too far
> into chaos.

That's a great explanation.

------
hn_meditate
Amateur meditator here, who had the trippiest experience from meditating in
the World's Quietest Room (anechoic chamber at the Microsoft lab) for two
hours.

tl;dr: multiple sensory streams completely merged. I "lost" the t-region of my
face. All breathing relocated into my auditory track (can't be a coincidence I
was in a -22db environment, right?)

I'm still curious to try to get a veteran meditator or neuroscientist to
explain what might have happened. Closest I got was being third in line at a
Sam Harris event.

Post-event description follows. Most peaceful event of my life, x1000.

Wave 1: uneventful. Wasn't trying to force anything, nor did I have any
expectations. But the experience was an ordinary meditation experience.
Getting settled.

Wave 2: after a few rounds of body scans, imagined sphere of light expanding
outward from the heart, and breath focusing, I had a rather spontaneous,
surprising, and effusive wave of gratitude -- visualizing the faces of loved
ones (family, friends), one at a time, smiling and happy. Flowing gratitude
for them and their happiness. Accompanying this was a deep somatic attunement.

Wave 3: At first I thought the silence had pronounced some mild tinnitus. But
after a while the silence took on a pulsating dominance of its own -- as a
dominant object of consciousness. Later doubted the tinnitus, as the chair on
which I was sitting would occasionally make a tiny crinkle, and those crinkles
I heard loudly and completely. My fixation on breath became impossible as the
rhythm of my breath slowed enough, and remained steady enough, to merge
perfectly with the slightly pulsating dominance of the "loud silence"
(oxymoronic, I know). This was the deepest level of somatic attunement I
reached in the two hours. At one point, sensory awareness of the middle
rectangle of my face (eyes, nose, cheeks) seemed to vanish. This wasn't
numbness, nor disassociation, but ... something else. A crowding out of
consciousness (?) due to the dominance and deep observation of the pulsating
silence. Incredibly peaceful and self-possessing.

When the lights came on, first words out of my mouth were, "no way!" (was that
two hours). I swore not even an hour had passed.

~~~
sooheon
Were the lights off as well?

~~~
hn_meditate
Yes, total darkness and artificial silence.

------
jrowley
For anyone interested in the neuroscience behind this, I recommend reading
Judson Brewer’s book the Craving Mind. He did the first fMRI studies of
meditators and makes explanations entertaining, interesting and accessible
without sacrificing the science behind it.

The cool thing about using fMRI is that they can see which networks and
physical systems deep inside the brain become active, not just surface level
activity of eeg. From there they see decreased activity in the default mode
network from meditators when they are meditating, which is the same activity
seen when people take sufficient doses of pychideics such as psilocybin.

------
agumonkey
Allow me to digress a tiny bit. After failing health, I had to find ways to
calm my mind. So meditation~ was a ritual of mine for a while. It did help a
bit, so I kept talking about it online.

I went on a caribean island for 3 weeks. The climate, vegetation and loose
rhythm of their lifestyle did more than meditation ever did (now I'm not
trained so ..). But there's a deep deep thing that happen when you live in a
highly green place. We sat down near a tiny river, just watching animals
around and watching the flow of water.. it was blissful.

/2cents

~~~
Zelphyr
One could argue that while you were sitting st that tiny river watching the
animals and the flow of the water you were meditating.

I believe, personally, this is likely how meditation was “discovered” in the
first place.

~~~
agumonkey
Yes indeed, I wasn't really trying to oppose both. But I want to share that a
good environment, with a deep nature, is a free and constant meditative
context. While our society is quite the opposite.

------
amriksohata
This pretty much is what Dhyana has said in Hinduism for a long time, a branch
of Yoga. Dhyana and Jnana Yoga are all forms to enlightenment of opening
channels in your mind to concentrate on a higher purpose and using meditation
is one practice. The effulgence/aura of the people who do this in Hinduism is
equated to bliss. I wonder if this is related to these brain wave changes.

------
nurettin
I have tried meditation, and successfully acquired the skill at a pretty young
age as part of our aikido lessons.

However, nothing calms and refocuses my mind more than remembering a very
respected collegue's voice telling me to focus when I was frustrated and
making mistakes. That affirmation that he believed I could do it by focusing
and that intent in his voice always helps a great deal.

------
mltony
I am wondering whether high levels of gamma waves are the result of so much
meditation throughout their lives, or the other way around - maybe these
meditators have higher levels of gamma waves to begin with and therefore they
enjoy meditating more than normal people or they are able to meditate long
hours without much effort.

------
momentmaker
Your consciousness(attention) is energy. During meditation, close your eyes
and try to concentrate your energy to your third eye(2 inch above the bridge
of your nose which is right where you prefrontal cortex is) by staring at it
with your eyes. Of course, sit up straight in lotus pose and breathe normally.

------
milkmiruku
[https://gitlab.com/tslocum/meditationassistant](https://gitlab.com/tslocum/meditationassistant)
\- Android meditation session timer and logger with numerous features and
customization options.

available via Google Play, Amazon and F-Droid.

------
sage2018
I find the real benefits of meditation are evident when it is done
consistently. Sadly, it is easy to stay consistent with checking phone several
times a day than meditating few minutes a day. Any tips on how to make it a
habit?

~~~
glibgil
Discipline?

Less glib edit :) I should probably give you a tip. Say to yourself, “I am a
meditator.” Now, imagine someone asking you “oh, when did you last meditate?”
What kind of meditator are you? Are you one that can answer “I meditated
today” or “I meditated yesterday and I’ll do it again today”? Or, will you
answer, “I meditated last week” or “it’s been a slow month for meditation”?

If you can’t say “I’m a meditator” and mean it, then you should just stop
thinking of yourself as one who meditates. You don’t practice meditation in
any real sense. That’s the rules of discipline. You are what you do and you
aren’t what you don’t

~~~
abdulhaq
It's funny, honestly I was reflecting the other day on how I hadn't seen the
word 'glib' for ages, and then along you come with a great example of a glib
comment :-)

------
FrozenVoid
I prefer binaural beats, which allow to entrain without years of meditation..
you can engineer your personal brainwaves for each time of day and purpose
with sbagen sequence files.

------
amiune
What are "Olympic level meditators"? For me sounds like a very inefficient
form of plant

------
kaiwen1
Sam Harris recently released a meditation app for iPhone and Android. As the
reviews attest, it is outstanding, the best thing I've seen for getting
started on your own.

[https://wakingup.com/](https://wakingup.com/)

~~~
kranner
I have to disagree. I tried it for a couple of weeks but have unsubscribed.
The problem is that Harris talks way too much during guided meditations. A
good guided meditation normally has a judicious mix of instructions and
silence, but Harris keeps rambling on, making it difficult to concentrate on
the instructions. He has an old guided meditation available on YouTube; that
one is much better.

Insight Timer is a much better app IMO. In terms of better guided
instructions, I would recommend Peter Russell, Michael Taft, Joseph Goldstein
and Sharon Salzberg.

~~~
victor106
I second this. Sam Harris’s books and videos on YouTube are great but in his
wakingup app he talks way too much.

~~~
collyw
Talking is good when you are starting out as your mind probably wanders very
quickly. Once you have some experience it gets in the road.

------
lostmsu
So one guy measured a gamma wave of his friend, and it's a >140 point article
on HN? There's zero substance to this article. No links to reviewed research.

~~~
nekopa
On the one hand, it is a pretty light article. On the other, the names dropped
are fairly respected in their fields. If you have a genuine interest in the
topic, may I suggest you check out this podcast:

[https://samharris.org/podcasts/111-science-
meditation/](https://samharris.org/podcasts/111-science-meditation/)

It involves the people mentioned in the article and is quite illuminating as
to what they've done over the previous few decades regarding this research
topic.

------
throwaway487548
Western concept of meditation (mudra-holding sitting in a crowded room,
wearing special yoga pants) has almost nothing to do with the original
meaning, which was "let the mind stop by itself, become 100% idle, so the so
called primordial awareness - _life itself_ , which is prior to the language-
based intellect, could be realized as one's own true nature", which uses
breathing techniques, isolation from society, _solitude_ (contrary to the
narcissistically idiotic group settings), moderate austerities (the Buddha
strongly emphasized futility of the extreme ones) and balanced body-mind
complex in general.

All that cosplay, which almost screams at you - "I am yogin, look at me, I am
meditator, look at me! I have this spiritual hairstyle and all the mystic
tattoos", is so distant from the original meaning of the ancient practices, it
is just ridiculous.

Study must be bad, because they obviously does not have any proper setting,
like everything-else-being-equal, proper control groups, etc.

I could challenge any naive yoga-meditation zealot with assertion, that
breath-holding divers, Nepalese porters (high altitude goods carriers) and
marathon runners will exhibit similar but much better physiological reading,
because the most important part is any yoga/meditation practices is
_regularity_ and _restoring the original balance of the body /mind complex_
which is just proper homeostasis.

Rally, try these divers, porters and paraphon runners - they will put all the
narcissistic yogins/meditators into shame.

------
hummingurban
I see lot of good suggestions for starting out in meditation but I see lots of
"use this app, go to this camp, read this"

While in reality meditation is an exercise you need to practice in order to
build that muscle. I don't like people productizing what's already has been
available for millenias.

Basically the core of meditation is not escaping as some people have
mistakenly believe but simply allow yourself to become aware of the fact that
you are aware and awake. You are continually observing yourself observing and
gradually you remove those superficial noise that cause so much suffering in
our daily life.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigpa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigpa)

1) Visualize the Tibetan letter "A" with your eyes closed and in a relaxed
state.

2) Open your mouth slightly to make an "ahhh" sound barely audible.

3) No other effort than continually visualizing the symbol.

Another technique I found was when you are sitting in your bed in a dark room
with your eyes slightly open and focusing on a point in space. You will see
everything fade to white and it's very easy to slip into the meditative state.
I don't know what this is called as I discovered by accident during my teenage
years.

One final technique which may help those that still have trouble keeping their
mind focused, I know I did, smoke an indica joint, sit in the sauna or steam
room.

Okay one last final technique which I don't recommend to those who are virgins
to psychedelics with safe alternatives like Psilocybin mushrooms. I don't
recommend LSD because those are purchased of the streets and are usually not
LSD but some other shit. Not the case with Psilocybin mushrooms, it's legal in
Canada. I say I don't recommend this technique to newcomers or especially
those who have never experimented but it's the closest I ever got to be on a
plane of existence that I cannot identify as of this 3rd dimension. But
overall the after effects are long lasting calm and freedom from anxiety.
Ironic because intense anxiety can be felt depending on your surrounding and
state of mind. It's definitely opened my third eye but after going on a heroic
dose, the trip has scared me from ever attempting large doses. Instead, micro
dosing with small caps not only ended up being the best fucking nootropic
ever, but my life felt improved in many ways.

TLDR: there are several ways of achieving meditative state and you don't need
an app. Some drugs may enhance your spiritual journey but I wouldn't rely on
it as it fails to be useful after a natural tolerance builds. Instead, it
should be used as a guide to put you in a state that would otherwise take many
hours of meditation sessions, and allow your mind to make that "leap" into the
serene state of mind, free of ephemeral desires and judgement that society has
programmed into us from the moment we are born, which we forget in our next
life.

~~~
kranner
> Another technique I found was when you are sitting in your bed in a dark
> room with your eyes slightly open and focusing on a point in space. You will
> see everything fade to white and it's very easy to slip into the meditative
> state. I don't know what this is called as I discovered by accident during
> my teenage years.

This is Troxler's fading.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troxler%27s_fading](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troxler%27s_fading)

> I don't like people productizing what's already has been available for
> millenias.

As long as people are only being introduced to meditation in a user-friendly
manner, I don't see the harm in productizing. Maybe some users will get
interested enough to go look up original sources or carry on meditating
without a product/crutch.

The only organisations that are doing some harm IMO are cults and/or those
that profess to have a secret formula that they only disclose for money.
Transcendental Meditation is one such organisation.

------
buboard
As with any research on meditation we should caution that except for
subjective measures , meditation has not been linked to some objective life
benefit

------
marmaduke
> We actually have no idea what that means experientially

Well one could start by reading what some of those meditators have written.
The behavioral correlate of the half second of gamma seems consistent with the
notion of “rigpa”, where one practices direct experience without trying to get
carried away in the thought process.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigpa](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigpa)

~~~
mtphil
Just a note : 'rigpa' is intimately related to Dzogchen
([https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzogchen](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzogchen)),
a high level Tantric practice common to several Tibetan schools of Buddhism as
well as the Bon religion, and thus is a /bit/ more complicated than and
definitely not quite the same as simply trying to maintain presence in direct
experience.

A more appropriate correlate would be 'sati' :
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sati_(Buddhism)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sati_\(Buddhism\))

------
me551ah
One of the best ways to learn advanced level meditation is to travel to a
vipassana meditation camp. They usually hold sessions lasting over 10 days
where you are not allowed to have any outside contact with the world. It is
also conducted by trained Buddhist monks. You'll easily find multiple reviews
for this course on the internet ( just google 'vipassana meditation' ) and
it's one of the best crash courses that you can attend. They charge no fees
and you are free to leave at any point in time.

I've been meditating since I was 14. My father used to forcibly take me to a
vihar(a Buddhist temple) every weekend for meditation sessions back then.
Meditation is great for when you want to calm your mind. Just the act of
observing your thoughts for a small period of time gives you a lot of insight
on how your mind is working.

EDIT: This is probably not for meditation beginners based on comments but for
people who want to explore advanced meditation techniques. They accept pretty
much everyone though.

~~~
hedgew
No. This is dangerous advice. An intensive, torturous retreat away from
friends and familiar places is one of the worst ways to start meditating.

[https://www.google.com/search?q=vipassana+psychosis](https://www.google.com/search?q=vipassana+psychosis)

~~~
Mo3
Can confirm from personal experience. Even a lot of vipassana meditation by
itself can send you into psychotic states when you're not ready for all the
insight yet. I came very close to psychosis once, experienced ego death, broke
down mentally and had to spend 2 months in a depression ward. Cannot
recommend.

~~~
me551ah
'ego death' can be really scary at first. There is an entire article in
wikipedia about it (
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_death](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_death)
) and how to integrate such experiences.

~~~
hi5eyes
ego death and the resulting occurrences of depersonalization and lack of
training/experienced people to help deal with the trauma is dangerous

