
82% of vehicles sold this year came with a touch screen - prostoalex
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/teslas-infotainment-dashboard-screen-tops-consumer-reports-ratings-2019-05-01
======
umvi
I hate this trend.

My ideal car:

\- buttons and dials I can feel with my hands without looking for
climate/volume/etc. controls

\- Car has a well documented API that can be used to control all non-safety
critical features of the car (climate, media, etc.) as well as get lots of
read only stats (current speed, current gas levels, current GPS location,
etc.)

\- mount on the center console where I can put my own touchscreen device if I
so choose (iPad, Android, phone, etc)

\- Car has an official app that can talk to said API over bluetooth or
whatever for iOS/Android.

\- Or I can write my own apps or programs, etc. that talk to the API.

Maybe I want to listen to audiobooks on Tuesdays and my own app would know to
push that to the speakers as soon as I start the car on Tuesdays

Or maybe I want a raspberry pi in the trunk to log my car's current location
and speed once per second because it's my teenager.

Just stop forcing crappy touchscreens attached to crappy laggy computers into
my car! I want to choose my own computer and I want to be able to replace it
if it breaks without taking apart my whole car and paying someone $1000 in
labor. A stock iPad is 10x more responsive than the crappy touchscreen in the
Model S; just let me mount my iPad

~~~
shredprez
I’m genuinely on board with most of this, but it reads like satire.

On topic, it is wild how dated even brand new car consoles feel. Luxury brands
do a bit better, but it’s still worse than my phone. Where do I sign up to
overhaul vehicle UX?

~~~
usaphp
Bmw has the best in business, they left climate, track, volume controls as
separate physical buttons and their console is incredibly quick to respond and
feels fluid like a phone. New Audi’s really made a bad decision to use two
screens without physical buttons, both of the screens are little laggy too.

~~~
ahartmetz
BMW uses the Qt GUI framework in its center console AFAIK. Ford Sync 3 does,
too. Those are some of the better and more responsive car GUIs. Disclaimer: I
offer Qt services. And... I actually prefer cars without any screens for my
own use.

~~~
usaphp
Screens are important in cars, for backup camera, bird view camera (incredibly
useful), for everything else I use the head up display, I still don’t
understand how more companies don’t adopt it, I can’t drive without it
anymore, incredibly useful and does not take eyes off the road

------
kevinconroy
At CHI conference about a decade ago I spoke with some of the lead HCI
researchers at Mitsubishi (which has long contributed to human factors
research). During Q/A they said the single best thing you could do to improve
safety was to NOT buy a car with a touchscreen interface. Lack of tactile
feedback is a major problem.

We all were quick to point out that they were selling cars with touchscreens.
The HCI researchers said yes the company did, but their point still stood.

You want to be able to do things like adjust heat and defrost without looking
(just with hands).

~~~
asaph
How do you feel about using voice commands?

~~~
kevinconroy
I'd be interested to see human factors research to see if it helps. Still, if
you've got kids in the back seat who are asleep and there's background road
noise from a highway, you don't want to yell "Carbot, turn down the A/C".
Turning a knob isn't that hard.

~~~
bronco21016
As a new parent this is something I hadn’t considered. I use Siri quite a bit
in our car with CarPlay and haven’t noticed if it bothers our child but I’ll
be more aware now. Thanks!

------
hodder
Touch screens are without a doubt more dangerous. You are forced to take your
eye off of the road to navigate the screen menus.

There is nothing I prefer more in a car than the classic 3 physical knob
layout for heat/cold, vent/selector and music.

I feel every car should start with that, and maybe add a touchscreen only for
deeper interactions, usually needed when the vehicle is not in motion.

~~~
kenhwang
Hard buttons pretty much a hard requirement for me on a car. Thankfully they
still exist and will probably continue to exist. The trend towards touchscreen
everything is already starting to reverse.

------
joezydeco
All new vehicles sold in the US after May 2018 were required to have a backup
camera.

[https://www.iihs.org/iihs/sr/statusreport/article/49/4/4](https://www.iihs.org/iihs/sr/statusreport/article/49/4/4)

If the automakers have to install a video display, it's not much of a leap to
turn it into an infotainment system.

~~~
aero142
The backup camera in my 2010 Tacoma is embedded in to the backup mirror. The
usability is nearly perfect because it's right next to where you were looking
already and is tremendously useful.

~~~
bb2018
I recently rented a u-haul that had this and couldn't believe all cars don't
do this. It is very useful having the camera and the mirror viewable at the
same exact time.

------
pi-rat
Most of them are still so slow, unresponsive and laggy that they break any
illusion of "touch" when interacting with the UI.

The iPad is almost 10 years old now.. come on..

~~~
Dig1t
Car tech is _insanely_ bad; I don't understand why, but it boggles my mind.

~~~
itake
Armchair Electrical Engineer here:

The parts used in cars need to handle a lot of vibration and heat and last 10+
years.

The tech lags behind consumer electronics because consumer electronics don’t
need to work in these difficult environments.

~~~
Retric
On the other hand size, weight, power consumption, and heat dissipation are
all vastly less important. Vibration is also generally easier to deal with
than shock as these things don’t need to survive the 10’ drop tests.

Car electronic systems suck because they are not a major selling point.

~~~
hungry_Zeus
Automotive electronics tend to have an operating design range from -20 to 120C
ambient. Not that they see this kind of ambient temp but usually they have to
be AEC-Q:100 qualified. Think about solar loading. Touchscreen (VHB tape,
backlite, etc) all have to withstand intense temperature swings and last
longer than a typical consumer electronic. If you look at the some of the
Automotive testing, its pretty intense (High temperature Operation endurance
testing and Thermal shock testing) in comparison to commercial grade testing.

Usually car manufacturers have to spend significant amount of Reliability
testing before the launch the product to avoid recalls. Tesla missed some of
the typical automotive testing and the early Tesla vehicles had a bluish Mura
after a year and some the adhesive layers on the TFT panel started seeing
issues and they had to replace the screens on a rather large number of cars

~~~
nitrogen
But like another commenter said, that still doesn't explain crappy software.

~~~
de_watcher
It's very hard to do software when the hardware has the priority.

You spend a lot of time fighting with its quirks and drivers.

~~~
hungry_Zeus
Yes, Crappy automotive SW is solely because most if not all infotainment SW is
written by third party vendors. GM/Ford/FCA have engineers who are good at
drafting Requirements and throw these said requirements over the wall to
vendors like panasonic, bosch, Lear etc. They write 100 page documents on how
the system needs to behave and these OEM vendors need to deliver these
infotainment black boxes without any significant issues. (You can imagine why,
if the infotainment board (Say intel or Qualcomm FW) has a bug that was found
in production; they would need to update over USB or some other form debug
method and reflash on the side of the production line and this cost hundreds
of millions).

Again tesla has done a great job and implemented OTA and some of the
automotive companies are following suit but this still does not help them much
as the updates are given by the vendors whose sole job is to cover themselves
(So most updates will go through a year of testing even for minor changes to
make sure not to brick anything)

------
robertnealan
Before buying my car I test drove a Mercedes that had what I assumed was a
touchscreen. Upon trying to tap it the person working at the dealership said
none of their cars have touchscreens because they don't make sense to operate
when driving, and instead had a easily reached dial in the center console that
controlled everything on the screen. Seems to be the case with any other
German car I've been in.

Takes some getting used to compared to just old fashioned knobs & buttons, but
far and above better than all the cars we test drove with touchscreens.

~~~
yardie
It's the worst of both worlds. Rather than having dedicated dials for each
function, or a touchscreen, you have a single dial and loads of menus to work
through. Want to change the radio station first you have to make sure you are
in the radio display context and then scroll through the stations until you
find your desired station. Meanwhile, you're constantly taking your eyes off
the road to work this dumb wheel.

~~~
perl4ever
I've had cars with either, and I'm kind of ambivalent on BMW iDrive vs Honda
touchscreen, but my main complaint with everything I've driven is the way
Bluetooth will not connect reliably. Sometimes you have to restart your car or
your phone to get it back, and once that didn't work and only unpairing it and
repairing it worked. This is really, really, basic and I sometimes feel like
screaming because when I was younger, whatever the flaws of a radio or CD
player, at least they consistently worked every time you switched them on.

~~~
yardie
I've heard Ed Sheeran's A-Team every time I start the car because the
Bluetooth receiver thinks it has to play something and it's going to start at
song 1 of my library.

------
blakesterz
Friend of mine just got a new Volvo, that touch screen was such a UI/UX
disaster it was just shocking. The number of touches it took to do anything
was ridiculous. He was trying to figure out how to do something super basic,
like it should've just had a dial on the dash basic, and it took minutes to
find. I don't know if others are better, but that thing made me want to never
buy a new car.

~~~
itsaidpens
XC90? I'd say they have a pretty great touchscreen interface.. My favorite
right now is from JLR (Jaguar Land Rover) with physical dials embedded into a
screen - that can context change. [1]

1\.
[https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Wj857_eHVHE/maxresdefault.jpg](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Wj857_eHVHE/maxresdefault.jpg)

~~~
elsonrodriguez
Don't forget the OLED buttons on the steering wheel that also change context.

Land Rover is so far ahead in UX it's unbelievable.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6YYun90S8g&feature=youtu.be...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6YYun90S8g&feature=youtu.be&t=6m22s)

~~~
itsaidpens
Wow - that is WILD!

------
thebeefytaco
It's hard to keep your eye on the road and use a touch screen interface.
There's no tactile feedback.

~~~
dragontamer
You can have both a touch-screen AND tactile feedback. Ex: have a volume nub
AND a touch-screen.

The touch-screen is almost a necessity with Apple Play and Android Auto. If
you want to interact with your cell-phone apps with your car system, you
better have a touch screen.

But please don't get rid of my AC buttons or fan setting knob.

~~~
m463
"make the system as simple as possible, but no simpler"

I think designers get into a mindset, and then keep going (too far)

------
sexydefinesher
Horrible, like stoves with touch interfaces that can't handle water.

~~~
silversconfused
Any interest in a voice controlled stove? Just an idea I've been kicking
around...

~~~
hiharryhere
No thanks. I want my stove to last 10+ years. Replacing a single knob is a lot
simpler to repair, and less likely to fail than the microphone, speaker,
logicboard etc. in a voice stove.

~~~
bookofjoe
FWIW my GE electric stove/oven was installed when my house was built in 1967
(52 years ago). Everything works perfectly except for one front burner, which
went bad about 2005. Oven is perfectly calibrated. I bought the house (and
stove) in 1983 and have never required a service visit. When I mentioned to an
appliance tech who was installing a new Maytag washer/dryer that I was
thinking of getting a more modern stove, he said, "Don't."

------
codr7
This used to be hilarious, but living it is about as much fun as predicted:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BnLbv6QYcA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BnLbv6QYcA)

------
Causality1
I'll happily stick to using my phone mounted to the dash, a 3.5mm input, and a
set of bluetooth controls mounted to the driver's side door.

------
m-p-3
Not a fan. Sure, a touch screen makes it easy to have an interface you can
change on-the-fly all through software, but it requires eye-hand coordination
which forces you to stop watching in front of you. How is this any better than
trying to type on a cellphone while driving? I prefer proper dials and buttons
in such a situation, which I can easily use without looking at them.

------
r00fus
I've had a touch-screen in my system since 2005 (Prius). I prefer to the nest
of buttons that is my 2012 Sienna.

I don't mind if temp controls are dials/buttons.

Nowadays a strong feature point is a decent implementation of
CarPlay/AndroidAuto in the vehicle. That requires a touchscreen.

~~~
WillPostForFood
BMW does a good integration of CarPlay without a touchscreen. Select by
turning the control knob, push down to click.

~~~
r00fus
How do they do maps integration? I assume they have a display somewhere...

~~~
WillPostForFood
It has a screen on the dash, but it has no touch capability so you interact
with it solely through the wheel in the center console.

------
b_tterc_p
What are people using the screen for? I do maps and Spotify, all of which is
controlled through the phone, voice, or steering wheel control. None of it
requires interaction while driving aside from thumb flicks

Having a screen is much better than a separate phone or gps unit showing maps.

------
jimktrains2
How well do these work if I have wet hands? Like, if it's rainy or snowy and i
get in the car, will I be able to control the temperature? Turn on the
defroster? Every smart phone I've owned would be anywhere betw 0% and 50%
chance of it working.

------
doctorRetro
My 12 year old car (perhaps obviously) doesn't have a touch screen, and every
time I drive a card that does have on, I find it to be either a complete
distraction and/or a UI failure. Cars don't need to be gadgetized.

------
kitotik
I’d guess most of the interfaces we see in 2019 are roughly 2009 designs and
implementations. I think it’s changing, but many of the manufacturers started
out by putting software in the same test/certify cycle as the hardware.

------
KorematsuFred
I find Jeep's Uconnect OS and Console to be pretty good but nowhere close to
say iPad in 2015.

I hoped Car play and Android Auto would be better but they suck too and have
many bugs that make them unusable.

------
erobbins
One big reason I looked at (and bought) my current car is that it's got a sea
of button and dials. I can't stand touch screens in cars, they are hard to use
while driving.

------
orev
Regarding safety issues, many cars also come with an array of collision
avoidance and other safety features that could potentially mitigate some of
the risk of touch screens.

~~~
NikolaNovak
I love how that sort of argument keeps coming up.

We are going to take UI that works.

We will instead make the UI that doesn't work. It'll be more expensive, more
prone to failure, and it'll come with safety compromises.

To address those compromises, we will install more software that's more
expensive and more prone to failure.

I understand I'm the minority user who just wants to drive his car safely and
use buttons and dials that I can move without staring down at my knees while
hurtling down the highway at 100kph while hoping that collision avoidance
saves me and paying extra thousands of dollars for the privilege of poor UI.
But I do wonder which planet everybody else is on...

~~~
orev
I’m not saying it’s the right thing, but it at least helps.

~~~
JohnFen
But it eases (does not eliminate) a problem that doesn't have to exist in the
first place.

------
megablast
As if 40,000 deaths a year due to cars in the US isn't enough? How there not
any laws about making cars more dangerous to drive?

~~~
whenchamenia
If my car is unsafe, to me, is it not my own risk assesment to judge? Should
we ban extreme sports too? As an adult, I cherish the responsibility of
choice.

~~~
jrib
I don't think it should be only yours, no.

If you were primarily only putting your own life in danger, sure.

But with driving the way it is now, I do not think it's a leap to make the
claim that distracted driving is a danger to not just yourself but to others
on the road. It's exactly the kind of thing that the government should be
regulating.

------
JohnFen
Touch screen in vehicles are pretty bad, in my opinion. But worse is the whole
"internet connected car" business.

------
dev_north_east
My car has a touch screen and I hate it. Aside from being crap, I cannot
safely use it while driving.

------
aussieguy1234
Soon, with self driving cars, a touchscreen will be all you will have to
control the car

------
t0astbread
Do cars these days also come with non-replacable non-free software or tons of
tracking?

------
akeck
That's terrifying. (Have car with touch screen. No car should have a touch
screen)

------
SubiculumCode
82% of them were mistakes.

------
thatoneuser
One more reason to not buy a new car I guess. Nothing like a latency ridden
touch screen that some autist designed.

------
lapinot
Are cars still a topic? Who owns a car here? I don't and i really don't plan
to. Public transports, bus, subway, train, carpooling, stuff like that seems
more than enough for me, here in europe (france) at least. I think we need to
shift the subject here: sure current cars are bad (low reparability mostly),
but to what extend do we need personal cars (at least specifically for people
living in urbanized areas).

~~~
lapinot
Not sure about the downvotes, care to explain? I did not expect this would be
seen as out of topic.

~~~
RandomBacon
I did not downvote you, but I imagine it's partly because of this:

> Are cars still a topic? Who owns a car here?

I think that's very self-centered to imply cars aren't worth talking about
just because you don't have one.

~~~
perl4ever
I think it's perfectly fine to have that opinion, but if you're reading this
thread, it's about cars, so it equates to "this thread shouldn't exist" which
isn't very constructive.

~~~
lapinot
I was simply trying to have a broader thinking, not only about how current
cars are bloated with hitech but about the place of cars. I care about
technology and consumer goods getting more and more opaque, littered with
useless electronics (not all, abs and esp have proved themselves). But to have
a complete picture one should also take into account their usage of cars,
which use case they fulfill, and whether or not this could be done otherwise.

~~~
Retra
Even if people in cities weren't using cars it would still be a problem if
they were designed badly, and worth discussing. Conversely, even if cars'
electronics were designed well, that would mean very little to the discussion
of whether they are optimal transportation in cities. In summary, your comment
is in the wrong thread.

~~~
lapinot
I'm not sure i completely agree with that, maybe you're right. Isn't bad
design is at least partly linked to the fact that these are _personal_ (non-
utility) cars, which are for a large part used in (sub)urban areas, ie usage
influences the design and reciprocally. It seems to me utility cars (and other
"professional vehicles") are among the less prone to this interface bloat.
Actually to support your point i recently saw how this exact problem was a big
issue for tractors, farmers being locked in with broken (electronic) stuff
they're not allowed to/can't repair themselves.

