
 We may get fired and I don't know what to do - firefoxd
http://pastebin.com/L69iMWGn
======
UK-AL
I really would not talk to upper management. If the guy got moved to a
profitable department, it means he has friends there. You're gonna lose, and
risk a bad reference which would make it difficult to get a new job.

Remember who put him there, if it was bad choice, it means upper management
made a bad decision. In my experience upper management will do anything but
admit to a bad decision.

Just silently leave for another job, try to make sure you will get a
good/neutral reference. Remember future employers will just think your
bad/unskilled if you get a bad reference rather than the fact you got into
politics. Larger companies have an automatic no, to bad references and won't
accept excuses. Since they assume your a bad person/almost criminal (the only
point large corporates will give a bad reference normally) and probably lying.
Limiting you to small companies for your next job.

Its nice to think you can be a hero and fix this, but you can only do that if
your someone with significant power in the company like a founder, or an early
employee who is best buds with senior management. Since HN is full of these
types, they can be idealistic.

I've been through situations like this, and this is what I would do now rather
then potentially making your life hell.

Situations like this is a massive problem with modern company structure.

~~~
hugofirth
As a side point - am I incorrect in believing that it is, in fact, Illegal to
give a bad reference? I was under the impression that your only recourse was,
instead, to decline to provide a reference at all.

~~~
tokenadult
In the United States it is perfectly legal to give a truthful reference, good
or bad. If the truth appears to be debatable, just stick to the facts. If the
person inquiring asks for a "deep reference," (someone else who knows the
applicant besides you), it is also perfectly legal in the United States to
provide that information. (This surprises a lot of job-seekers in the United
States, who would like to believe that the law is otherwise, but this is the
law. In general, you can say truthful things about current or former
employees, including identifying other people who know about them.)

I have been looking up information about employment law (mainly in the United
States, but also around the world) as part of a promised update to my FAQ on
company hiring procedures

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5227923](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5227923)

that I will post to my personal website.

~~~
MetaCosm
Absolute true. But you will only get sued for a bad reference, it simply isn't
worth the corporate risk. The corporation gains literally nothing and exposes
itself to legal liability. There are reasons HR have strong policies on this
-- it is all liability and downside with no upside.

------
eksith
Resign, if you can. This seems to me an organization with a toxic ecosystem
that's neither healthy for you or your co-workers.

It's ridiculous that the strategy team isn't aware of these shenanigans and
that tells me, the structure of the organization is hopelessly broken (besides
the manager they don't want to get rid of).

In my experience, management isn't the sort of thing that's easy to fix or,
IMO, worth fixing in the longer run. If you're not a founder/investor or in
other way have a horse in this race, you literally have no incentive (besides
immediate salary) to waste precious time off your life in a hierarchy that
isn't going anywhere and is utterly clueless.

Resigning may give you better options later on than getting fired. It's going
to be tough depending on how well you can function on reserves, but if I were
you, I would be tiding up my resume immediately and sending out feelers
elsewhere.

It's a big ocean out there.

~~~
lucaspiller
> you literally have no incentive (besides immediate salary) to waste precious
> time off your life in a hierarchy that isn't going anywhere and is utterly
> clueless.

I beg to differ. It sounds like the whole department is at risk. If I was in
the position I wouldn't want to just quit and leave everyone else - who I work
with on a daily basis - to face the consequences. I would try speaking to
upper management and seeing how that goes. At the very least let them know
about the PMs regime to rewrite everything - "What, you didn't know this was
happening?". I would actually speak to them rather than just emails. If they
don't seem bothered, and nothing happens, then get out. But at least you know
that you tried, and don't have to feel guilty about leaving.

~~~
dasil003
I agree with this because it seems to be essentially one bad apple that is
screwing everything up. If the team was working okay before under the previous
PM and lead developer then there's no reason to think all hope is lost. At
least not yet.

~~~
troels
Yet this bad apple sunk one department and then got transferred to a highly
profitable one. It sounds to me that he is very well connected or otherwise
good at office politics. Taking him on would likely end in defeat. I would
suggest to get out of there.

~~~
dasil003
He doesn't need to "take him on". He needs to gather information to decide
whether or not he needs to leave. If one jumps to conclusions and passive
aggressively resigns every time one encounters dysfunction in an organization
then one will never be able to work on a team larger than 3 or 4 people.

------
babarock
You can either resign silently, or step up and go talk honestly with higher
management with the risk of getting fired. In any case, you shouldn't continue
working like that.

Finding a new job is easier than you think it'll be. Living in such a
stressful environment is not worth it. The only thin you'll regret is not
doing something about it.

~~~
stesch
_Finding a new job is easier than you think it 'll be._

Maybe he is older than 35?

~~~
sspiff
Is it that much harder to find a job when you turn 35?

I mean, a lot of my older colleagues have had a hard time finding jobs, but
most of them are not very passionate about what they do. They want to work
right next to their own front door, they don't want to sacrifice any pay or
holiday credit, and they prefer not to learn new things and stick to the
familiar. (I know of a few exceptions, and I'm not claiming this is true for
all >35yo employees)

I wonder: if you keep learning new things, continue to be passionate about
your field etc, is it that much harder to find a new job just because you're
older?

~~~
brador
If you're low or mid talent you're competing with fresh graduates and self-
learners. It gets harder, because you'll want more pay and work less free
overtime.

For high talent or a unique skillset, it's not a problem and you effectively
set your own salary. This is where you want to be.

~~~
gdilla
It's an interesting problem. All the cream of the crop 20 somethings now will
be 35 one day. Even people like mark zuckerberg will be 35! But I guess the
question is relative value.

In baseball or basketball, a younger age does make a difference (since
performance is proportional to athleticism). Veterans are still highly
regarded for leadership, and sometimes pure skill (setup man, utility
infielder, 3-point shooter); Though they're called on less and usually earn
less then their heyday. Would we ever see something similar in the code
business?! I don't know. In the case of coding, experience goes up, but
perhaps desire to not work like crazy goes down (family, done it before, etc).

Maybe we should pay even higher salaries to bright youngins with huge signing
bonuses? And let them know that their expected prime is 21-34. And they should
manage their money wisely and open a carwash or burgerking or two.... :P

~~~
MetaCosm
It is an interesting (made up) problem. Older developers exit for hiring
paying management roles. At large companies, average developer age is
constantly going up.

The market (US) has 2.2% unemployment and every single software company I have
ever worked for is CONSTANTLY scouting for people, nonstop, the entire time I
have worked there. Keeping standards high is exceptionally challenging...
"Good news, this one can do FizzBuzz!"

Age isn't even considered, we just need freaking people and are competing with
5+ other companies to get them. There is a reason we pay recruiters 20k+ per
freaking hire.

------
bowlofpetunias
If you're not willing and able to stand up and speak up, you're just as
unprofessional and incompetent as those you are blaming.

I'm sorry I'm so blunt, but I'm getting so tired of developers whining as if
they are victims. We are not poor exploited coal miners, we are well paid,
sought after professionals. Start acting like it.

~~~
vladimirralev
Who is going to pay you for the risk of confrontation? Like others already
said, its not your job to oversee the management. As a team member priority
number one is to keep the peace. The best you can do it to give small hints
here and there by asking for justification/vision/mission statement that makes
sense. If management don't catch on the hints, there is nothing else you can
do.

I am surprised this person has so much vision over the state of the business,
if there is nothing else that can explain the situation you have to leave.

~~~
philsnow
> its not your job to oversee the management. As a team member priority number
> one is to keep the peace.

I strenuously disagree; employees should have the right, if not the
obligation, to keep their direct management honest [0]. It forestalls
situations that turn into HN horror stories. If you feel like doing so would
put your employment in jeopardy, all you can do is take orders, right ?

[0] by "keep them honest" I don't mean to imply that management lies to
employees; it's a figure of speech in American English that AFAIK means to
make sure the other party knows that you're watching out for any foul play.

~~~
vladimirralev
I've heard this before, but there is only so much you can do. You can't be
constantly calling your manager on his bullshit. What kind of relationship are
you going to have this way?

I agree with you to the extent that you can give hints and ask the manager one
or two tough questions. Once the OP raised the issue with the lost money and
the case was dismissed, that's all you can do.

Some managers are passive-aggressive, they will exploit the peace and just sit
and wait to be confronted about everything. And any confrontation labels you
abrasive or without respect for authority and that puts you into a losing
situation. You must know what kind of person you are dealing with. A bad
manager is a bad manager. Best option is to leave asap, if you have a bad
manager you will never advance your career.

~~~
philsnow
> You can't be constantly calling your manager on his bullshit. What kind of
> relationship are you going to have this way?

No relationship, since if I find I _have_ to call my manager on bullshit
repeatedly, why would I waste my time in that position ?

> A bad manager is a bad manager. Best option is to leave asap, if you have a
> bad manager you will never advance your career.

ah yeah you came to the same conclusion as me :) I thought you were saying,
one should just tough it out upon finding oneself reporting to a bullshitty
manager.

------
chris_wot
An incompetent manager is moved to the most profitable division? This
indicates that the individual is highly connected in the company.

Brush up your CV, get the heck out or request a division transfer.

~~~
MetaCosm
Sad truth. :(

------
83457
So the project manager and lead developer are hiding the work of multiple
employees (division?) from from upper management? Many employees are getting
payed for months of work to recreate a product--work that upper management
would probably disagree with if asked. In what company is that even allowed? I
can understand keeping something secret from other divisions or a small group
focusing on something for a period of time but sounds very fishy and something
that should be brought to the attention of your boss's boss or someone higher.
Between work that may be worthless and losses, your project manager is
effectively spending hundreds of thousands of dollars in an unauthorized
manner.

~~~
keithpeter
" _Many employees are getting payed for months of work to recreate a product--
work that upper management would probably disagree with if asked. In what
company is that even allowed?_ "

Yes, I was wondering about that as well. And the significant loss in revenue -
in my experience that usually leads to _lots_ of questions.

The office isn't overlooking the London wheel by any chance :-)

------
clockwerx
Without trying to make this sound trivial, have you simply considered ignoring
both individuals?

You have a senior in the team that has a fair idea of what needs to be done.
You know the problems. You know that working on this side project, in secret,
is wrong; so why not agree at every meeting, discussion, etc that you _will_
work on it, and then simply _do whatever needs to be done_.

It is risky, as the manager will then likely try to fire you; but that's going
to be difficult to sell:

\- At every point you've followed directions given in verbal conversations \-
If there's stuff in email, you simply agree to that as well - said manager is
then documenting their own failure \- You are delivering what the strategic
parts of the business believe are the right thing \- He'll justify trying to
fire you... by revealing his secret project \- All hell will break loose, and
at the end of the day if you were demonstrably protecting revenue _and_
following the overall strategic intent of the organistion, you'll just be
treated as a dilligent cog in the machine.

Directly raising it or confronting the issue is likely to make you appear
argumentative or a "trouble maker". It doesn't matter if you are right, once
it gets past a certain point, non-experts have no clue what's going on and
rely on relationships, tone of conversation, and the amount of trust they
feel.

However, if you look harmless - nay, even too stupid to have done the wrong
thing(!), you can likely let it wash over you and the team.

Alternatively, just all take your sick leave at one time, due to "stress
caused by long hours working on SECRET PROJECT NAME", cc HR. :P

~~~
ms4720
Then Success goes to the manager and lead and failure goes to the team for not
doing what they were told and agreed to do in writing. You are handing them a
scapegoat.

------
aplummer
If it is as bad as you say, send an earnest letter to whoever owns the
company. If that's the founder, shareholders, whoever has the owners equity in
the company. Better yet, if possible, find them in person and address them
that way if you have the confidence/acumen.

Get your resume sorted but don't touch the linkedin as it will show you might
be thinking of jumping ship. It sounds like you enjoy the project and would
rather solve the issue than leave. A project being developed in secret is
completely f'ed (and could be illegal depending on your company structure) and
they would have to be mental for reprimanding you for bringing transparency to
it.

~~~
dasil003
I think he should go to the PM's boss and to request an in-person meeting to
raise the issue. Depending on how big the company is, the CEO may be way too
high up to have any clue about the people he's talking about; he needs to get
a read on the situation based on the PM's boss' reaction to figure out his
next move.

------
gfosco
I would likely have gone over his head to higher management some time ago. The
only reason not to is job security, but I swear to you it's better to go out
having done the right thing.

~~~
AndrewDucker
I agree.

Go see senior management, and tell them what kind of unholy clusterfuck is
occurring inside their top area.

~~~
amirmc
Be very careful with this approach. You've no idea what those above know or do
not know and if handled badly, it could blow up in your face.

------
thu
It seems a lot of people think you can sort things out by speaking with higher
managment but it looks like the organization is broken, not just the new
manager otherwise he wouldn't be in a position to brake a second department.

There is a communication problem too. Why isn't anybody talking about thoses
site going down ? Why is it so formal/difficult to talk about problems with
other managers and other departments ?

It's unfortunate, but a few (even just one or two) guys can brake an
organization when they are at the top.

~~~
kelvinn
Agreed. The natural first response is to play politics (not always bad) and
escalate via some other back channel, but often times direct confrontation in
the right setting is more effective.

------
brador
Your job is not to make the company more profitable. It is to make money for
yourself. You're a technician. Do the work, tick the boxes, while finding
better employment and building your skillset.

I wouldn't rock the boat under the reasoning that you gain nothing by doing
such, except, maybe, a tiny chance at promotion. Moving jobs will likely net
you a higher paycheck.

------
suhailpatel
I'd have to agree with most of the comments on here from what you describe.
Considering your last sentence, you are in London where there are no shortage
of tech jobs. Brush up your resume and send it out. Good luck!

------
devsatish
Now that things are so bad, the best thing to do is to keep higher ups and
other peers(yours and your managers's) in the organization, a quick update on
what's going on in your group. Make sure to have some good metrics/data
collected to have the case strong.

Remember: When concerned about loyalty, Your loyalty is not just to the
manager, but to the organization.

------
kelvinn
To get into the mindset of the managers, consider skimming James Collins' book
"Good to Great". One point to take away is that any leaders in your
organisation will appreciate the brutal facts.

Make sure you have documented what issues and risks you have expressed to the
PM and Lead Developer - maybe actually in whatever tool you are using, or at
least in email. Make a record that team's morale is decreasing.

You and each of your team members should directly be telling the PM and Lead
Developer that you are worried with specific risks or issues.

Take the registers to somebody with more authority in your organisation. Come
in with a few recommendations. Present the facts and tell them you think
there's a problem, and ask if they agree or not. If they do agree, make sure
to get what the next action will be.

Just my immediate thoughts. Good luck.

~~~
UK-AL
This is super idealistic. In reality in small/medium companies people are
connected and group together, and protect their friends. Most likely the pm is
friends with the senior manager.

~~~
lazyjones
Also, in reality many employees do not have the insight or ability to identify
critical issues they think they have.

------
inabin
Honestly it sounds like I used to work for that company. If it's not the same
one then the situation sounds damn near identical.

The company I was at was too big to suddenly change direction and fire those
people who were incompetent and the problem was that the issues the company
had did not come from the bottom, they came from the top.

Going to upper management in my case was not going to change anything on the
ground for me immediately and if I did not see change in a month I was going
to lose my mind.

In the end I chose to resign because I needed change for myself one way or
another and at least my resignation guaranteed that change for me.

And like another commenter said here - getting a new programming job
(especially in London!) is not that hard.

Good luck :)

------
pan69
A day job isn't supposed to be this political and stressful. Get the hell out
of there.

------
throwhawaii
Story of my life! Except the system was our bread winner and the redesign was
no secrecy. We knew something was wrong but we all wanted to see the company
succeed so we kept going way after the project was late and over budget. In
the end we failed and everyone competent left.

My advice will be that you leave if you can. If that is not an option then
work up the courage to tell some higher ups what's going on. You will burn
bridges with the manager but you will save yourself and the rest of your team
from the pain of coming to work every morning knowing they are partly
responsible for something bad that is about to happen.

------
barrkel
The weather in London is not ugly right now.

Just for the record.

------
gringofyx
There are two schools of thought at work, and you need to decide which one is
for you:

1) You're paid to do a job, in a hierarchical management structure each tier
must delegate and trust the tier below it. It's not your job to criticise your
manager, it's the job of your managers manager, at the end of the day none of
the developers are at fault for simply being told what to do.

2) You're personally and emotionally committed, you know you shouldn't do it
but you want to take on the problems of the team, and by proxy, the problems
of the company. If that's the case then voice your concerns because it'll
stress the fuck out of you otherwise. Don't voice them to your manager, voice
them to your managers manager. Don't get all emotional when voicing your
concerns just lay out the facts calmly and impartially and go with whatever
they say.

My opinion on this is that if you've taken the time to submit to HN, then
you're Option 2 and it's going to eat at you. Even if you leave like many
people have suggested you're going to feel bad for your team. Voice your
concerns and then try to emotionally distance yourself from the company
(unless they get the hint and fire the idiot manager). Then start looking for
another job and advise the same to your colleagues.

Lot's of people here are saying to look for a job first, if you voice your
concerns now, in the UK, it's unlikely they'll just fire you without any
notice or any severance pay. If you're in London and half decent, you'll find
employment pretty quickly.

Best of luck ;)

------
SideburnsOfDoom
> When we talk with the manager he thinks that it's not a big deal and once
> the tool is complete we will not have this kind of problem any more

The idea that "the current system is rubbish, but the new system will be
perfect" is common, and it is dangerous nonsense. Every large system has
flaws, and throwing it away and starting over is the worst way to address
them. Refactor if you can. Add the ability to refactor if you can't.

------
HarrietJones
Go over your managers head. Go to the person who is in charge of your manager,
and tell them what's going on. Inform them that your manager's messing this up
with a secret side project.

I'd also be tempted to go back to your original project. If your new manager's
taught you anything, it's that it is OK to work secretly on stuff without
reporting to management. See if you can get the whole team to revolt.

------
jerven
This being an post complaining about weather in London, English law can be
assumed to apply. First of all consult a local solicitor in employment law.
Collect all your reviews and e-mails about your job performance in the last
years. The solicitor can tell you what your risks are as losing a job can be a
big financial problem. This will cost you a 100 to 300 GBP which is worth it.
(have a look around see if a trade union can help you for much less)

Then document what is going on with the secret project and if possible show
where your boss has lied on paper/e-mail. Then either schedule a meeting with
your bosses boss and ask internal legal council to be present if it is in your
company do this personally and make sure the meeting is on short notice and
preferably early in the day.

If possible have a basic recovery plan available but do not give it unless
asked for it. You should show concern for the business not look like you want
your bosses job.

During this period of course look for new opportunities elsewere as, if your
current boss stays your boss work is not going to be any fun. Even if they
can't fire you now.

------
rmc
Fuck 'em. Get a new job. Capitalism at work baby. Hire a crappy manager,
capitalism means the company will lose skilled employees and go under.

------
rdl
Find a new job, now. You can probably get a raise. Finding a job while you
already have one is easier than when unemployed. Posts like the "HN Who is
Hiring" can help, although more US-focused.

Decide if you should tell management about these issues (politely) on your way
out. I'd be inclined to just leave quietly, though.

------
brianmcconnell
While its personally satisfying to be a "hero", it will just get you fired.

I worked for a company whose CEO fired his outside accounting firm and
replaced them with his wife, this in a company that grossed 5-10M per year.
Super fishy, especially amid rumors that sales were off 20%.

I asked him directly if he was hiding something that was material to our deal
(we came in through an acquisition). I was promptly fired, or in legal speak
"laid off due to business reasons".

I'll never forget the comically bad exit interview, which ended in me being
tackled by one of the managers in an attempt to obtain my cell phone.

So unless you want to be a martyr, just quit. Agree also that management put
that bozo there, nothing you can do about it except leave.

------
Tloewald
It sounds like you're invested in the company/team and/or the project or this
would be a no-brainer (leave). You could try confronting the lousy manager as
a group (if you really do all agree), and if that fails go over his/her head.
Then you've done the right thing by everyone. Maybe there are even some good
ideas in the new design that could be moved to the existing design to help the
idiot save face (at least offer a lifeline). Confronting the manager first
means he/she can't claim he/she was ambushed, no-one ever said anything, and
so forth.

------
dutchbrit
Don't resign just yet, find a new job first ;). Shouldn't be too hard!

------
intellectronica
Start looking for a new job (or, if you feel up to the challenge, starting
your own company). Once you feel comfortable that you can leave and start
something else, you will also feel comfortable going to management and
explaining the situation (make sure you have plenty of hard evidence). Then
you'll be able to decide whether you stay and try to work with management to
rearrange things in a way that's better both for the business and for
yourself, or you move on to one of the other options you've already secured.

------
a3n
Leave. It's not your problem. You're not curing cancer (I assume) and your job
means nothing to the universe, it's merely a way for you to gain energy until
entropy wins and kills you. If you're old, then you'll have to focus and try
harder than your younger colleagues, and you should start this very minute.

Seriously, the vast majority of our jobs mean nothing. There are other, less
stupid places to work. The vast majority of our employers won't exist in 100
years. So be happy and leave.

Leave.

------
hosh
It sounds like the company is on its way to tanking. It might not have hit the
tipping point yet, but if the senior leadership made a mistake at putting
their worst manager on the best team, well ...

... My point is that, if you step up and lose your job, you got out while it
is still good. If you don't step up, eventually, the company will collapse and
now you are out of options.

If you don't feel secure about it, perhaps you might want to start being open
to looking for other opportunities.

------
ExpiredLink
>> _Since the beginning of the year 2013 my department have lost more than 50%
of its earnings and keeps losing at an alarming rate. Discussing with my team
mates it is obvious what is going wrong: We have an incompetent project
manager and lead developer and they are the only ones who seem to not notice
that there is even a problem._

The PM and the lead haven't noticed but certainly their boss. Wait and see. I
don't think it's _you_ who will be fired.

------
d0100
Why are people telling you to leave? If you confront the situation the worst
is you'll get fired, get workers comp and what not. If you leave you get
nothing.

~~~
michaelt
The logic goes like this:

1\. If you're going to do something that might get you fired, get another job
lined up before you do it.

2\. The leverage "threaten to resign" only works once; if you don't follow
through it won't be credible again; and it marks you as having one foot out
the door, making it less appealing to invest in training you or give you new
responsibilities.

3\. Even if you use leverage other than threatening to resign, moving jobs is
guaranteed to get you away from your toxic boss, whereas trying to fix things
isn't guaranteed to work. And at the same time you can probably learn some new
technologies and get a salary bump. Once you've got another job lined up, you
might as well take it.

4\. Telling everyone what you really think in leaving e-mails / exit
interviews never changes anything in the company, but might make you enemies
or get you a bad reference. Why bother? Instead give them some bullshit about
how it's a great company and you just felt it was time for a change.

Of course, if you can confront the situation in a way that doesn't risk
getting you fired, the above logic doesn't apply.

~~~
Isofarro
Don't threaten to resign. Make your argument, back it up with data and
evidence, let managers the space to do the job they are supposed to do. If
then they don't fix the problem, then just leave.

There is only downside for threatening to leave, it scuppers your future in
the company. As michaelt notes, don't bluff, have the next step lined up. At
that point, there's no value in threatening to leave. Just hand in your
notice, if they realise your value they tend to counter-offer anyway. But be
sure leaving is the right thing for you.

------
pschastain
If you talk to higher management, make sure the project neglect and subsequent
loss of income is forefront in your concern. If the problem person has friends
in higher management, you may be screwed one way or the other, but if you keep
it about the finances of the company you stand a much better chance of being
heard and even appreciated. Otherwise, I'd say update your resume and quietly
start looking elsewhere.

------
ChristianMarks
Secret projects are a recipe for layoffs. Years ago I worked for a manager who
wanted a few of us to work on a wildly impractical project. The main business
wasn't getting accomplished, and the parent company that was funding the
venture dissolved the company. One of the programmers there became a principal
at a Silicon Valley VC firm--he doesn't mention his stint at the failed
venture.

------
mac01021
Have any of you discussed this with the new incompetent PM? That seems like a
natural first thing to do, before going over his head.

------
nraynaud
So I have this crazy idea that since I'm young and in IT, I should never try
to protect my job. Just make a stink of it, lose your job (that sucks
anyways), and find another one. If you do that often enough, you'll be the one
always proposing changes, that's called a leader and it's the kind of people
that get promoted.

~~~
chris_wot
No, you'll be the person with a long resume who finds it hard to get a job!

------
Codhisattva
Just quit. Tomorrow. Life is too short to waste time on crap corporate
politics and the culture of failure.

Frankly, it's probably not worth the time it would take to do a brain dump to
upper management, HR or any potentially interested party. I wouldn't volunteer
anything unless someone who seemed genuinely interested asked.

------
mateo411
First, find another job, then talk to upper management. The negative
consequence of talking to upper management is that it would be difficult for
you to work with the incompetent project manager in the future. Oh well.

Help your coworkers find other jobs too. They might even follow you to your
new company if you play your cards right.

------
franze
my 2cents

either a) you do not care anymore about the success company and only care
about job security

b) you do care about the success of your company

if a) is the case, quite now! you are part of the problem. you are blaming
them but are at the same time not willing to take the consequences of doing
the right thing.

or

b) speak up, all the time, to anyone, not just with your peers, but also to
anyone else. call this "to change the dance" you are changing how you behave,
to other have to react. they will be pissed, they will blame you. they might
fire you (good for you, then) or they will change their dance.

there is no alternative, everything else will just go downhill.

recommended reading: [http://www.amazon.com/Seeing-Systems-Unlocking-
Mysteries-Org...](http://www.amazon.com/Seeing-Systems-Unlocking-Mysteries-
Organizational/dp/1576754553)

buy it, read it, understand what is currently happening and what your role in
it is.

------
bernatfp
Just name the damn company and sooner or later the upper bosses will find out.

------
wavesum
How about anonymously linking this post in an e-mail to the upper management?

------
_random_
You grew personally attached - don't do that. Your co-workers are not your
friends and you don't have a stake in that company. It is normal to change
your job.

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busbyjon
You're in London, come join us, we're after some shit hot talent!

Reply and I'll provide details if you're interested!

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ceedan
Stop being a lamb. Speak up or find a new job.

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Beltiras
Leave. Now.

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hannibal5
If all of you agree, you can write a letter together that points out the
problems and toxicity of the situation. Then you all sign the letter in
alphabetical order and send it to the CEO of the company.

If that fails, you can resign.

~~~
walshemj
send it anonymously

------
amerika_blog
Be sure you're right, then go ahead.

Going ahead means talking to higher management, laying out your concerns ("I'm
worried this may be the case" not "This is the case, absolutely, and you must
act now!") then asking if they think you're right.

I would also style this as a question of management theory, not the individual
in question. "I believe Dan is using the STFU management technique and it's
not a fit for our unique situation..."

~~~
marcosdumay
That, I'd say, is the best answer so far. Do not confront anybody, just ask
questions (to enlighten yourself), and let the upper management know about the
secrets (because they obviously aren't secrets, your manager isn't allowed to
have secrets, so you can freely talk about them).

Be as friendly as you can be, and talk about policies, not people. They may
actually not know about your division's problems, and correct the situation.

Also, look for another job. It is possible that your manager has friends up
there, and won't be fired. That means your team will, one way or the other.

