
Snowden Leaves Hong Kong on Commercial Flight to Moscow - bendoernberg
http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1267261/snowden-leaves-hong-kong-commercial-flight-moscow
======
enko
Man, how times have changed. I was born in the 70s and the US was the country
you would run _to_ to escape retribution for whistleblowing you did back home.
(†)

For Snowden to be running to Russia to escape extradition from Hong Kong (!)
is just fucking bizarro world for me. It is actually quite jarring. I don't
trust Russia at all. But even thinking about it forces one to ask whether one
trusts the USA. The answer to that is pretty jarring, too.

(†) I'm not making a right/wrong judgement about his actions. He blew a
whistle, a whistle he thought needed to be blown. In my opinion that is a
necessary check on state power and is a defence in and of itself.

~~~
necubi
Really, they haven't. Daniel Ellsberg, the leaker of the Pentagon Papers
(1971), was also also charged with espionage. In his case all the charges
against him were dismissed. Not, to be clear, because of any contriteness on
Nixon's part. Instead, it was because the government was found to have
illegally bugged his phone and broken into the office of his psychiatrist in
order to find material with which to discredit him. Several of those involved
were later convicted as part of the watergate trials [0].

If you think things were better in the 70s, you really weren't paying
attention.

[0]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Ellsberg#Trial_and_mistr...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Ellsberg#Trial_and_mistrial)

~~~
enko
> If you think things were better in the 70s, you really weren't paying
> attention.

Yeah, well I was 3.

Even so I don't seem to recall Ellsberg fleeing the country to escape absolute
certain injustice. I don't recall his video interview with a foreign paper
while he hid in China. Do you?

Something has definitely changed.

~~~
declan
Imagine how things might have turned out differently for Bradley Manning if he
had a day or two to get out before his arrest.

~~~
olympus
Manning was a PFC in the Army. He wouldn't have been able to afford fleeing to
Hong Kong or Moscow making less than $30,000 per year. He would have had a
much more difficult time evading arrest.

~~~
jlgreco
How much money could such a fleeing really take? I mean, 30k isn't much at
all, but would he even have been paying for rent or food while enlisted? If he
managed to save up a few thousand for a few plane tickets and maybe a few days
in a hotel on his own wallet, then that would be enough. I don't think a few
thousand is a particularly unreasonable ask.

------
uvdiv
This is strange, because there are no scheduled nonstop flights between Moscow
(any airport) and Iceland. There are flights which make a connection in
Europe, e.g. Helsinki, but then there are already nonstop flights to Helsinki
from Hong Kong, so what does he gain from an additional landing in Moscow?

(Assuming Iceland is where he is trying to go).

[http://matrix.itasoftware.com/](http://matrix.itasoftware.com/)

[http://flightaware.com](http://flightaware.com)

(Note that the hub in Iceland is Keflavík (KEF), not Reykjavík (RKV) which
mostly does domestic).

~~~
Svip
Furthermore, in Russia, he will have to go to the Danish embassy or consulate
to get asylum in Iceland. I am not sure how this helps or disadvantages him,
but I thought I'd mention that Iceland themselves don't have an
embassy/consulate in Russia, but is represented by Denmark.

~~~
tomjen3
Dane here. Our politicians will hand him over to the US if they can, but by
law they can't if he faces the death penalty or if he is likely to be treated
inhumanely.

~~~
uvdiv
The US can guarantee to waive the death penalty in exchange for an
extradition. I've read some lawyers think the US is likely to try this.

~~~
pests
For some reason the fact that he can be facing _death_ just struck me after
seeing you mention it.

~~~
sliverstorm
Well, he's being charged with treason isn't he? I know treason doesn't really
sound _that_ serious to many people any more, but historically it is one of
the "big three" that could earn you the death penalty, even in progressive
countries that don't like the death penalty. The others being espionage, and
of course, murder.

~~~
caf
No, so far he's not been charged with treason. The US allows the death penalty
for divulging certain types of classified information - for example
information directly concerning nuclear weapons, and communications
intelligence.

I don't think any progressive countries impose the death penalty at all, but I
suppose this depends on what countries you would include in that category.

~~~
sliverstorm
_I don 't think any progressive countries impose the death penalty at all_

Would you consider Canada progressive?

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanao_Inouye](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanao_Inouye)

I didn't mean it is necessarily like this _today_ , but rather that even
progressive countries continued to execute for treason at least partway
through their history of progressiveness. It took longer for that piece (death
for treason) to die out than most other pieces (like, I dunno, denying women
suffrage?). It's sort of an awkward idea to express.

I could start listing, but you should really just peruse this list:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_convicted_of_tre...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_convicted_of_treason)

------
hkmurakami
_> Moscow will not be his final destination. Possible final destinations are
either Iceland and Ecuador, according to previous media reports._

I first thought that Ecuador would be more likely, since had Iceland been his
final destination, he probably would have taken the Icelandic businessman's
offer to hire him a chartered flight. But then I realized that perhaps Snowden
places more trust in a commercial flight and not being detained in Moscow than
a stranger's chartered flight which could potentially backstab him and hand
him over to US authorities.

~~~
mtgx
Iceland hasn't exactly been very vocal about supporting him, so Ecuador might
be the best choice. Russia I think was pretty vocal, but maybe they just
wanted to make fun of US, and aren't really serious about protecting Snowden.
Plus, they support US's surveillance state, so there's little reason why
they'd want to protect him, other than being vengeful against US for whatever
reason.

Ecuador so far has been pretty good for Assange, and they might continue to
want to be seen as "the country that stood up to US", but nobody really knows
how far they are willing to go to do that. At least Assange hasn't even been
charged with anything by US, yet.

~~~
_k
Putin didn't really say they support the US's surveillance state, he said
surveillance is necessary but you need a warrant.

~~~
lostlogin
Yeah, careful with that guy. A lot of people who didn't get on with him seem
to die in strange ways. But don't talk about it - especially not Pussy Riot
style as dissent isn't ok.

~~~
insuffi
You know, I find it puzzling that, even though USA has proven itself to be
literally on the same level as the "communist" countries(read: China, Russia),
people still apply selective blindness.

People die in strange ways in the states too. Michael Hastings much?

~~~
davidw
> though USA has proven itself to be literally on the same level as the
> "communist" countries

And people wonder why I complain about seeing political discussions on this
site. How can you have a serious discussion with bizarre comments like the
above? And just so it's clear: one can simultaneously hold in one's mind the
view that there are some serious imperfections and injustices in the US, and
that there are a lot of worse places - and some that are probably better.

~~~
insuffi
If by serious imperfections and injustices you mean the violation of
fundamental human rights, including freedom of speech, that America flaunts
right and left.

"What makes America the greatest country in the world? re: Freedom and
freedom, and let's keep it that way."

~~~
XorNot
And you've got your blinkers on if you think that's really the worst it can
get, or if you think Putin "really isn't that bad".

~~~
insuffi
That's not at all what I said. The difference is that Putin doesn't spread
propaganda through every news channel about how Russia is a truly democratic
country and everyone has their freedoms according to the law. Everyone KNOWS
he is a tyran, and he doesn't do much to change that.

Now let us observe the american media - 1)America birthplace of freedom?
check. 2)America greatest country in the world? check. Despite not leading the
world in a single category(besides defense spending). 3)Ideologically and
officially different but pragmatically similar political parties? check.
America - the birthplace of hypocrisy and the God complex.

~~~
XorNot
So this is you being one of those Americans who thinks America is the center
of everyone's world. Putin, doesn't broadcast on American networks, in
America, because they're American.

What do you think happens in Russia?

~~~
insuffi
I'm eastern european, meaning I do have some inside knowledge on how Russia
operates, especially since it's still trying to regain political power in the
post-soviet countries 23 years after its fall. Everybody knows Russia wants
its old empire back.

I do believe my perception of the american media is accurate as well. You're
free to dispute that.

------
Dosenpfand
It seems that he got help from Wikileaks' legal team:

>FLASH: WikiLeaks has assisted Mr. Snowden's political asylum in a democratic
country, travel papers ans safe exit from Hong Kong. More soon.

[https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/348724514135347200](https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/348724514135347200)

>FLASH: Mr. Snowden is currently over Russian airspace accompanied by
WikiLeaks legal advisors.

[https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/348732325909102593](https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/348732325909102593)

~~~
cmdkeen
Wikileaks legal advisers - he's flying to a country that is putting a dead
whistleblower on trial in order to demonise him and cover up government
corruption.

Relying on the legal process in Russia is a really good way to find out how
different it is from America, however much certain people would like to think
differently.

Because that dead whistleblower - he was a lawyer.

------
epo
This story is part of the ongoing propaganda war between the USA and China.
The only thing we know for certain is that the Chinese say he has boarded a
plane to Moscow, he may or may not have done. He may or may not still be
alive. The Chinese may even have secretly handed him back to the Americans. We
don't know and it is probably best to be sceptical about everything you read
until a journalist and film crew meets him face to face.

~~~
joelrunyon
It seems he's definitely left HK -
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5926668](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5926668)

------
Lucadg
WikiLeaks (@wikileaks) tweeted at 11:20am - 23 Jun 13:

FLASH: Mr. Snowden is currently over Russian airspace accompanied by WikiLeaks
legal advisors.
([https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/348732325909102593](https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/348732325909102593))

Edit: Oops sorry, somebody posted this already. Anyway, interesting news!

------
lignuist
For those who want to hypothesize: Here you can check the departures from
Moskow after 17:15h

[http://svo.aero/en/timetable/today/](http://svo.aero/en/timetable/today/)

I think destinations in Russia, EU and Asia can be safely filtered out.

~~~
pivnicek
Thanks for that link. Seem to be a few flights out to Havana. That would be an
interesting destination.

~~~
edcastro
Seems he is heading to Venezuela through Cuba.

------
untog
"I don't want public attention because I don't want the story to be about me.
I want it to be about what the US government is doing."

"he fully expects the US government to attempt to use all its weight to punish
him. 'I am not afraid,' he said calmly, 'because this is the choice I've
made.'"

[http://m.guardiannews.com/world/2013/jun/09/edward-
snowden-n...](http://m.guardiannews.com/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-
whistleblower-surveillance)

------
colin_jack
People interested in this might also want to read the Guardians latest GCHQ
revelations. Worryingly they seem to have been gathering more data and there
is an interesting section on NSA involvement.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5926608](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5926608)

------
CurtMonash
I'd be happier if he weren't putting himself under the control of governments
that can reasonably be regarded as US adversaries. Thus, I'm with Assange that
Ecuador or something was the way for Snowden to go.

Yes, there would be a risk to him of regime change in any such place, but so
be it ...

~~~
DominikR
I'd like to see what your actions would have been if you were facing life in
prison under solitary confinement like Bradley Manning does (or even worse -
torture & execution)

Any government that isn't a US adversary would surely extradite him, so it
seems reasonable to me that he was in China and now travels through Russia.

Chinese dissidents do the same thing, they flee to Chinese adversaries (like
the US)

~~~
IronWhale
> or even worse - torture

All studies that I know of show that solitary confinement _is_ torture after a
few weeks.

~~~
DominikR
I absolutely agree with you.

------
haakon
Snowden is going to land in Oslo airport, Norway and meet with the leader of
our Pirate Party, before going on to his final destination which is supposed
to be Iceland. Source, in Norwegian:
[https://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/uriks/Piratpartiet-
Snowde...](https://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/uriks/Piratpartiet-Snowden-
mellomlander-pa-Gardermoen-7238358.html)

~~~
virtu
Amazing publicity, there are still a few hours before he lands in Norway then.
Sunday is the best day to travel for him propably...

Here is Google Translate of the above article:
[http://bit.ly/14RbV5Y](http://bit.ly/14RbV5Y)

~~~
marvin
I wonder if this was an intentional leak. This was reported by the leader of
Norway's Pirate Party on Twitter. With the misdirection regarding Cuba and
Venzuela, I'm wondering whether he is actually headed for Iceland or somewhere
else. Seems weird that they would publish something like this.

Oslo seems like a risky place to land since Norway has historically been very
open to requests from US officials. Is anyone able to get in touch with
someone involved and see if the leak was intentional, and if not get in touch
with Snowden's Wikileaks entourage? (I'm from Norway, btw).

The latest flight leaving Oslo for Reykjavik today is Icelandair's FI325 at
21:55 local time.

------
oal
The flight can be followed in real time on FlightRadar24:
[http://fr24.com/AFL213](http://fr24.com/AFL213)

------
nsns
Not only his leaks, even his itinerary makes the US look bad.

~~~
mtgx
Republican media: "Now he's aiding _all_ the enemies, not just China!"

Because in their minds China and others are actual "enemies".

~~~
joelrunyon
You could have just left this at 'american media'

~~~
mahmud
Nope, it's just GOP media, GOP executive branch, GOP congress that are behind
the largest crackdown on whistle-blowers in U.S. history~

~~~
gasull
Isn't Obama to blame for this too?

~~~
mahmud
Sarcasm. I even used the ~ sarcasm terminator from usenet.

~~~
gasull
I didn't know ~ meant sarcasm.

------
alexqgb
Seems like this is where his carefully considered plan gets much more
improvisational. Bad optics, just the same - even if he is on his way to
Iceland.

~~~
LinaLauneBaer
Why is Iceland such a bad idea?

~~~
dclowd9901
My guess is that Iceland would probably bend to the US's will pretty easily,
especially over such a high profile individual.

~~~
insuffi
It always puzzles me how people, especially citizens of Murrica think everyone
will bend over and let U.S. have their way.

Small countries? Maybe. See case of latvian hacker Deniss Calovskis
[http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/01/23/u-s-charges-
three-w...](http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/01/23/u-s-charges-three-with-
hacking/?_r=0)

Now Latvia is widely regarded as a country that will definitely follow US's
whistle. And this extradition case has been going on for, eh, 9 months now?

Think about what independent and "ballsy" countries will do.

------
WeirdSemantics
Imho, given the publicity of the issue, there's no way the current US judicial
system could find Snowden guilty of treason without creating a huge domestic
and international scandal. Politically, this would turn into an enormous
backlash. To maintain the image of a state of law, the US has no other choice
than prosecute, but the outcome will turn out as either:

\- a mistrial, followed by a strong attempt at burying the case somehow
(probably with other events)

\- a non guilty verdict, with spin doctoring to display the whole thing as a
demonstration of the fact that the US constitution and overall legal system is
sound,

\- a "guilty" verdict, but with so much attenuating circumstances than there
will be no significant sentence

However, for Snowden, I doubt that he will be able to find a job again in his
line of work, after breaking the "ethic rules". What security company would
hire a (skilled even) security analyst (or whatever Snowden was actually
doing) if he cannot keep it shut on the internal practices? The scope could
widen to any entreprise actually.

------
cinquemb
“As the HKSAR government has yet to have sufficient information to process the
request for provisional warrant of arrest, there is no legal basis to restrict
Mr Snowden from leaving Hong Kong.”

I think Washington will wake up with a bitter taste in their mouths…

~~~
wilfra
After he spent the last two weeks releasing info that helped both Hong Kong
and China - I don't think they'll be all that surprise he was granted the
ability to leave the country.

~~~
RexRollman
He also released info that helped US citizens, as we are being kept in the
dark in regards to the country's unconstitutional surveillance programs.

------
mh-
his fellow passengers are going to be rather annoyed if he causes this flight
to be detained on the tarmac for hours.

~~~
peterjancelis
Actually it would be awesome to sit next to Snowden on this flight.

~~~
gasull
I wish Snowden good luck, but I wouldn't like to be in the same flight with
him. I would be that such flight would have a higher risk of "an accident".

------
brown9-2
Didn't he say that he intended to fight any extradition in the HK courts?

------
jafaku
Cool website. This is what I see:
[http://i.imm.io/1a7pX.jpeg](http://i.imm.io/1a7pX.jpeg)

------
Thiz
Running away from lucifer to fall in the arms of beelzebub?

Weird world.

------
rlwolfcastle
Not sure why he just didn't go to China initially and then use the Phoenix to
fly wherever he wanted?

------
fleitz
In the modern era you can't really hide so he might as well be as public about
it as you can be.

Russia is definitely an interesting move, and Putin has been playing the whole
thing very smart. I wonder what he knows that the Russians don't, or what they
can now reveal having found out through Snowden rather than the usual sources.

It seems to me the value in Snowden is mostly making public what everyone
already knew.

~~~
enko
> making public what everyone already knew

I can't find a link, but there has been a "meme" graphic going around with, I
think, a very insightful caption.

For years, you go around trying to raise the alarm, and you're a crazy
conspiracy theorist.

Then when you finally get conclusive proof - it's old news, everyone knows,
you've been saying it for years!

~~~
Andrew_Quentin
Welcome to rhetorics 101

------
dschiptsov
Never heard that we've implemented visa-on-arrival scheme.)

~~~
nzmsv
No visa necessary if he doesn't leave the airport and gets on another flight
within 24 hours.

------
spitx
Let's not get cute here.

If the United States wanted him extracted (on the way to Hong Kong) or worse,
killed during his sojourn in HK, Snowden would have already faced a fate
several orders worse than Alexander V. Litvinenko.

It isn't a huge tab for the U.S. to foot in the way of deploying deep cover
teams to "take care" of Snowden - for what had been alleged to be the biggest
U.S. intelligence leak in a generation - in the least suspicion-arousing
manner long before Greenwald ever published his story.

For a nation that outspends the next ten defense budgets combined (even with
the off late sequestration cuts accounted for) this is not much of a task.

The top brass could have taken care of this in a manner several orders more
believable than the 2006 killing of Alexander V. Litvinenko in which the uber
rare, and thus strictly available to only government bodies, Polonium-210 was
used.

They could have made it seem like a forlorn affair of unrequited love with
that dancer-acrobat girlfriend of his.

It is acutely nonsensical to assume that movements of sensitive personnel,
like Snowden, are not tracked, especially to far-flung locations like HK given
that he is not a field operative of any kind.

The NSA and other assorted intelligence/military organizations probably have a
protocol for dealing with these things,in conjunction with the Justice
department.

If they didn't before, Manning's case would have elicited the need for one.

Source:

[http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/03/world/europe/03russian.htm...](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/03/world/europe/03russian.html?pagewanted=all)

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvinen...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvinenko)

[http://nation.time.com/2012/09/25/comparing-defense-
budgets-...](http://nation.time.com/2012/09/25/comparing-defense-budgets-
apples-to-apples/)

[http://www.forensicmag.com/articles/2009/06/polonium-210-and...](http://www.forensicmag.com/articles/2009/06/polonium-210-and-
assassination-alexander-litvinenko#.Uca0-zvs3N4)

[http://www.buzzfeed.com/mbvd/this-might-be-the-girlfriend-
ed...](http://www.buzzfeed.com/mbvd/this-might-be-the-girlfriend-edward-
snowden-left-behind)

~~~
declan
Your suggestions are far too cute, actually. By going public, and periodically
reminding everyone that he could be targeted for assassination, Snowden has
created a strong incentive for FedGov to keep him very much alive.

~~~
spitx
I was referring to the fact that had they wanted they could have scuttled his
efforts even before he arranged to speak to Greenwald and Poitras.

If the NSA or BAH were to submit that they were unaware of Snowden's
whereabouts or movements when he arranged these interviews, they would in all
likeliness be resorting to feigning ignorance.

It's the height of silliness to suggest they were clueless about Snowden's
motives before his junket began.

Source:

[http://www.salon.com/2013/06/10/qa_with_laura_poitras_the_wo...](http://www.salon.com/2013/06/10/qa_with_laura_poitras_the_woman_behind_the_nsa_scoops/)

------
h4pless
Snowden running is not something to be confused with an admission of guilt,
but at the same time, it does prove that he is not a patriot. With his
worldwide recognition: the safest course would be for him to publicly turn
himself in to a US police station or deliver himself to a courtroom. He would
have a very public trial and would have an even farther reaching message in
this country. By running he shows that he has no faith in this country and no
longer considers himself a citizen. Not only that but he opens himself up to a
ridiculous amount of risk by being wide open in foreign countries where things
are semi-expected to happen to travelers by this country. If something happens
to him while he's in the legal system of this country, the people responsible
for him would be crucified by the media and everyone else. Granted he could be
silenced and have his reputation destroyed by the media while incarcerated in
this country but I believe a patriot works with the system or fights within
it, only a coward runs.

~~~
seclorum
Right, because the United States justice system works so well when its (the
US) ass is on the line. Just ask this guy:

[http://www.saveamericafoundation.com/2013/06/21/top-us-
journ...](http://www.saveamericafoundation.com/2013/06/21/top-us-
journalistmichael-hastings-assassinated-while-attempting-to-reach-israeli-
consulate-assassinated-by-sorcha-faal/)

~~~
h4pless
This was a man who was running before facing a trial or even charges. Not a
man in the justice system. Who knows what really happened to him? Nobody.
Because he was being secretive about his actions. He has allowed nothing but
conjecture to his fate. I have been under investigation by the FBI; it doesn't
mean they're going to kill you.

~~~
seclorum
Just the fact that the US President can order an extra-judicial killing of any
US citizen, if he deems it fit, should be enough to raise your ire, citizen.
With such tyranny allowed, justice is no longer possible in US society.

