
Opinion: Case for removing master-slave terminology from music production tools - glitcher
https://cdm.link/2020/06/lets-dump-master-slave-terms/
======
exabrial
Oh ffs. Get some education:
[https://www.google.com/search?q=dictionary+master&oq=diction...](https://www.google.com/search?q=dictionary+master&oq=dictionary+master)

These are just distractions from real issues. This isn't even incremental
progress; it's a conscious choice to do nothing while looking good like you're
actually "doing something".

~~~
happytoexplain
While at first glance I don't see any value in changing these terms, I do
think pushback of this angry tone serves to illustrate the shocking degree of
negative emotional energy that people have for the topic, which ironically
serves as evidence that the terms _do_ matter, and strengthens the argument
for the change.

~~~
exabrial
No, not at all. Read my other comment below.

------
vector_spaces
If your initial response to this is negative, and you aren't a member of a
demographic that doesn't have recent, painful memories of slavery with
horrible, tragic effects that persist to this day, then you really need to
check yourself.

For some people who've been through this trauma, the words "master" and
"slave" evoke one painful meaning first, before the alternative meaning is
understood. If you've never personally experienced something like this, I've
read it described as being punched in the stomach. And it's wholely
unnecessary, so why not change it?

Words matter. Maybe they don't to you, but trust that people aren't lying when
they say it does to them.

I'm super disappointed by the callous response to this: when people talk about
gatekeeping in tech, or the myriad failures of tech to be accessible to
marginalized people, this is what they mean. This is the culture that enables
that.

~~~
AdrianB1
>> a demographic that doesn't have recent, painful memories of slavery with
horrible, tragic effects that persist to this day

"Recent" means about 2-300 years? I thought slavery was abolished in US over
150 years ago, that is several generations that never met, so other than books
where are the memories? Have you ever met a slave? Have you ever heard about a
slave in your lifetime? Do you know anyone who ever talked to a slave?

~~~
musingsole
Hardly. It's more uncommon by the day, but there are living first generation
descendants of American slaves
([https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=965819...](https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=96581933)).

So yeah, there's still a number of Americans who _have_ talked to a former
slave.

------
root_axis
Ideas like this are a great way to signal how privileged you are. Black people
being murdered by the cops don't care about master/slave jargon in technology,
it's hilariously out of touch that someone would even think this is at all
important with respect to the issues going on right now.

~~~
jfrankamp
I think some people like myself see the current issue as an iceberg like
problem. Systemic racism is composed of many tiny parts. This is not an
either/or question, but a yes/and one. You can both not want to be killed and
care about the casual and lazy use of language. We can as technologists,
change this without stopping work on police reform for example. The
defensiveness/resistance to change is much more interesting to me.

As for signalling, Sure we don't need to advertise it to ourselves and give
accolades for something so simple. But we can do the bit and move on. I guess
a lot of people are in love with the idea that if doing something is good then
it must be being done in order to be _seen_ as doing good. That is bullshit
unless you happen to know intent.

~~~
root_axis
I think now is the worst possible time to delve into this issue. America
doesn't pay attention to anything for long, especially issues related to
systemic racism. Right now when we have the ear of America we can't afford to
squander that attention on trivialities that don't affect the lives or
outcomes of oppressed people. The dynamics of racial discourse over the last
decade means unimportant issues like this will only be used as an excuse to
shut down the conversation around the issues that really _do_ matter, yet we
don't get anything material in return for dying on this hill, this is just
social justice theater meant to make privileged people feel good about
themselves.

~~~
jfrankamp
I hear that. Months from now would be better than now if as you say it derails
better and more urgent conversations.

------
01100011
Personally I feel like these changes are silly but it is not a hill I want to
die on. I understand some may think this is a slippery slope but as a society
we've been sliding down it for years now. Just make the change and move on.
Focus on problems that matter.

~~~
akvadrako
So your argument is: the slippery slope is real but we've already got too much
speed so we might as well hit rock bottom?

~~~
01100011
My point is we aren't going to stop 30 years of political correctness. The
inertia is there. Software already has an image problem. Fighting something
like this makes our industry look bad and doesn't really help anyone or set
back the PC train.

We're hitting rock bottom either way. Let's not drag down the software
industry in the process.

------
glitcher
I was hesitant to submit this article because it seems extremely insignificant
in the broader context of current societal changes.

But then it made me ponder the wide extent to which current events are causing
people of all walks of life to question and reevaluate even the smallest
details of everything around us. Do I think that the proposed changes would
make a noticeable difference to society? Probably not. Ultimately do I care if
this specific effort succeeds or fails? Nope, don't really care either way.

However, I do think the broader discussion about questioning how we use
language, and where certain colloquialisms originated, is important. But I do
see opinions at both extreme ends of this topic which are not trying to have
good faith discussions, and instead are focused on the absolute worst case
scenarios. Maybe the reactions to this story are even more significant than
the story itself.

~~~
nkurz
It's a good article. Thanks for submitting it! Perhaps reflexively, I tend to
disagree with its conclusions, but it certainly makes me doubt myself. I was
going to resubmit it if it didn't gain traction. I do think you should have
gone with something closer to the original title, though. It doesn't quite fit
exactly, but it does if you leave out a comma and one word: "Let’s dump
master-slave terms: they’re vague and we’re better off without them". Maybe
you still able to edit it?

------
tekcyb-org
Hiding words from people isn't going to help or save anyone. It just supports
ignorance.

~~~
britch
No one is arguing take the word slave out of the dictionary or history books.

We can call these things whatever we want. It's a name for an abstract
concept.

Why not change it to something that does not refer to one of the most
barbaric, nightmarish relationships between people?

For me personally it makes we wince whenever someone uses "master/slave."

We don't need to be casually throwing around "master and slave" in a
professional setting

~~~
Valmar
> Why not change it to something that does not refer to one of the most
> barbaric, nightmarish relationships between people?

Gee, maybe because it also has connotations that have _nothing_ to do with
racism or human slavery?

Where does this slippery slope end?

Should we change other terms in computer technology simply because some vastly
small minority emotionally fragile busybodies break down at the mere sight of
the word "abort" or "kill" or "terminate"?

Master/slave have very well defined meanings in computer terminology ~ and
spoiler alert, there are no human or racial connotations in those meanings
anywhere.

~~~
britch
I think I see where you are coming from. I'm not advocating for changing
"abort" or "kill" and agree they go too far.

I disagree with your point that it has nothing to do with racism or human
slavery. The name master/slave indicates one is giving direction and one is
following direction. It's not like someone sat there thought the letters
m.a.s.t.e.r sounded good and might at well be the name of bit of the system
giving order.

My concern is not with industry veterans, but with people being introduced to
tech or non-techincal people who are brought into technical discussions.

Honestly, would your rather explain a bug as "the secondary was not following
the instructions from the primary" or "the slave was not following the
instructions of the master" to a room full of people unfamiliar with the
subject?

The master/slave naming scheme is, to me, an especially bad situation. Things
like whitelist/blacklist do not have the same urgency in my mind.

I appreciate your concern for the slippery slope but think we can address this
without falling all the way to the bottom.

------
jdmg94
I'm all for these changes on a personal level, but when a company like Github
(and by extension MS) makes a PR move virtue signaling like they actually did
something then we should be skeptic, because they have time and time again
supported ICE and other law-enforcement that tells a very different story.

------
slim
it seems the end game of this is to disappear the words slave and master from
our vocabulary, so we can't express those ideas anymore and let slavery expand
unhindered

~~~
tartoran
If the words were to dissapear from the dictionay (which is not happening btw)
then we’d invent others, don’t worry.

I find this change somewhat futile as it will not make people less racist, but
if it offends black people we could go with a diferent term, why not?

I always found master/slave a bit too idiomatic. I imagined a hardrive
whipping the other form time to time. This picture is painful to some, lets
update it and show we’re willing to do good.

Im worried though that the change will amount to these types of changes,
removing statues, adding disclaimets in history books, old movies etc and then
no real change (as in needed change) will emerge. Hope im wrong though

~~~
guggle
> but if it offends black people we could go with a diferent term, why not?

How do we know black people are offended by the terminology of midi clocks ?

------
nowandlater
“We are what we always were in Salem, but now the little crazy children are
jangling the keys of the kingdom, and common vengeance writes the law!”

― Arthur Miller, The Crucible

------
TAForObvReasons
Some tools already do this. Reason switched in 2017:
[https://www.reasonstudios.com/en/reason/updates/release-
note...](https://www.reasonstudios.com/en/reason/updates/release-notes)

> Reason 10.0.1 / Reason Essentials 10.0.1 Release Notes

> ReWire master/mixer and slave/device is now always referred to as "host" and
> "device"

------
rrradical
A lot of the other comments here seem absurd to me. We should all be able to
imagine terminology that would be repulsive. (I.e., imagine if some tech term
or project name were a racial slur. Would you really argue against changing
it?). So yea, there's a line to draw somewhere; we can't say every technical
term is immune from critique.

So then the argument is that in this particular case it's just not a big deal
and people shouldn't be upset about it. Well, if you're saying that, I'm going
to go out on a limb and guess that your recent ancestors didn't have to deal
with slavery!

What percentage of people in tech are Black? Some single digit percentage?
What if tech were 95% Black? Would we really say master/slave? Of course not.
That wording has a lot of baggage for some people! So even if 9 out of 10
people don't have a problem with the word and see this as a PC slippery slope,
that doesn't mean the minority is wrong to request changes. It's not difficult
to change the terminology, and it helps some people, so why fight it.

~~~
root_axis
> _What percentage of people in tech are Black? Some single digit percentage_

I think it's presumptuous to imply that black people necessarily have a
problem with master/slave terminology outside of the "owning people" context.
I feel compelled to out myself as a black person to say that its absurd. The
issue of the day is that police need to stop killing us with impunity. Believe
it or not, there is actually a _very_ limited amount of attention available
for issues surrounding systemic racial injustice and distractions like this
just exhaust that very limited resource and leave us with jaded citizens who
roll their eyes whenever issues of social justice are broached. Even the very
idea of "social justice" is considered a pejorative because of the focus on
stupid issues like this by a privileged group of people who are so comfortable
that they have time to worry about things like arbitrary technology labels.

~~~
zuminator
Am black, I totally agree it’s not a major issue, but I still think it’s not a
bad change to make. This is just a hypothetical scenario but I’ve had similar
moments before. I’m working with a white person, he says something like, "you
mind hooking up that slave device?" And there’s this tiny bit of awkwardness,
which feels unmentionably dumb to both of us, but is there none the less. We
say nothing, and the moment passes. Except maybe, next time subconsciously,
we’re a little more reluctant to work with each other, we don’t even realize
why. If making this inconsequential terminological adjustment serves to help
get rid of a minuscule, barely perceptible degree of racial friction, then
great, why not I say.

~~~
root_axis
I don't think it's a _bad_ change, I think alternative words are fine and I
would encourage anyone who wants to make such a change to do a find/replace in
their codebase. What I don't like is delving into this topic _now_ , when
there are so many more important issues at hand and the nation is actually
listening for once, especially knowing how this issue will be used to shut
down important conversations around race and characterize the social justice
movement as puerile and trivial. The reality is master/slave terminology _is_
trivial.

If someone wants to replace "master" with "main" in code review, I think
that's fine, perhaps even slightly better than what it was before, but this
should stay within the confines of the organization rather than dilute the
movement proper.

~~~
sukilot
A computer programmer can change programming terminology. They can't really
change police department practices.

~~~
root_axis
> _A computer programmer can change programming terminology_

And that's fine, perhaps even laudable in the abstract, but right now it's not
what we should be wasting time on.

> _They can 't really change police department practices_

They could protest. They could donate time and money. They could use their
platform to elevate issues that have a material impact on people's lives. They
aren't obligated to do those things to be good people, and a few of them might
be doing all of the above, but changing computer jargon doesn't even begin to
register on the scales of social justice, it is so utterly meaningless in the
face of what's going on all around us that it's _almost_ insulting, save for
the fact that the idea is overall well intentioned.

------
asjw
Disclaimer: I'm not and English native speaker and there's no equivalent in my
language, in fact they usually are not translated and used in English. (I
mean, there is an equivalent, but it's never used in this context)

My position about this issue is ambivalent.

From a purely human standpoint I understand it, truly.

When we use those terms referring to tools, I don't see much sense.

When men used bulls to pull the plough it really was a master-slave
relationship

The bull could not be the master, even if it wanted too, a human is not strong
enough to pull the plough effectively

It's a symbiotic relation between two elements where one is in charge of the
"intellectual" part and the other of the physical one.

We can use controller and agent, but controlling is problematic too

We can use manager and worker, but it still implies that there's a disparity
between the two

Frontend/backend doesn't fully capture what's going on

We use master/slave because one side is taking all the decisions, the other is
just obeying

It's bad, I recognize it, and maybe it's time to change, but no amount of re-
wording will change the fact that it's mainly used nowadays for tools that
work that way, not for people.

Maybe leader/follower looks like a better choice, but really isn't, follower
sounds more dumb to me, at least slaves rebelled throughout history, followers
don't. And a leader can be as bad as a master who owns slaves.

Main/secondary is somewhat the best of them all, but it only works for systems
were any secondary node can be promoted to replace the main in case of
failures, which is not always the case.

Bull/man is not main/secondary for example.

~~~
chinesempire
What about brain/arm?

~~~
asjw
Thinking about it, brains/muscle doesn't sound so bad

Or master/blaster as in Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome

------
ohgodplsno
White people fighting worthless causes to feel good about themselves and
patting themselves on the back because they fought away racism by changing
names, episode 2345.

But sure, go ahead, make the term disappear. That will surely fix the
underlying issue.

------
hashbig
What is that make people react to events that happen in the US differently
than those outside of the US? I mean there are people who die and people who
protest about a variety of different issues outside of the US (just recently
protests in Hong Kong, Iraq, and Lebanon). However, it never causes this
magnitude of response, from media platforms and tech companies, to music
production terminology.

------
excerionsforte
To move forward, you must be willing to make changes. If something is causing
controversy, you cannot ignore it for long before it drags you and everyone
else down. If you do not identify with the controversy, you should step away
from it and let the others who can lead the change. You can focus your energy
on things that matter to you.

------
chrisdhoover
Cars have master and slave cylinders. I never liked the terms because I don’t
think the terms a very descriptive. Pedal cylinder and wheel cylinder describe
the devices better.

------
noncoml
Next, we should stop using male/female for connectors.

~~~
nkurz
This suggestion was in fact made at the bottom of the article: _Bonus footnote
– male and female? Switch to “plug” and “socket.” This change is tougher,
though, because there’s no easy abbreviation to ‘m’ and ‘f’ for text that is
tougher to change. But the terms are clearer and … you know, less gross._

~~~
noncoml
I was being sarcastic.. :/

~~~
baggy_trough
There's no bottom to this rat hole.

------
Proziam
It's remarkable how much drama is being manufactured over a non-issue. There's
a zero percent chance the people putting in the effort to promote this don't
realize that 'Master' is an industry term of art meaning original or reference
copy.

~~~
elliekelly
Is “slave” an industry term of art? Certainly most people are familiar with
the concept of a “master copy” - keys, documents, etc. but computer networking
is the only time I’ve ever encountered the word “slave” thrown around so
cavalierly.

~~~
nkurz
Yes, both "master" and "slave" have been used as a pair for a long time in a
number of different technical fields to describe relationships between
devices. Instead of computer networking, the linked article is on a site that
focuses on music technology ([https://cdm.link](https://cdm.link)). If you
search (for example) [midi "slave"] you'll come up with a lot of hits using
"slave" in a technical sense for electronic music. Here's a nice example page
from that search, that goes farther to distinguish (technically and without
irony) two different types of masters and slaves:
[https://steinberg.help/cubase_pro_artist/v10/en/cubase_nuend...](https://steinberg.help/cubase_pro_artist/v10/en/cubase_nuendo/topics/synchronization/synchronization_master_and_slave_c.html).

------
guggle
There we go again with a Rubocop-like complaint. Are we at the pinnacle of
ridicule yet ? Because I don't think I can take anymore. The amount of bigotry
in the news is puzzling.

------
rich_sasha
Changing reality with language is a Soviet propaganda tool, actually more and
more used elsewhere. Look at Trump, BoJo et al. It doesn’t change reality. It
muddled the problem, confounds the description of the problem with the
solution, and makes us forget where we come from. The shame of using the term
‘slave’ for an electronic device or ‘master’ for a Git branch is here to stay,
to remind us where we come from. Erasing them is fighting history and
language, and as such worse than futile.

Sure, some terms are outright offensive, but this is not the case here.

There are some factual errors in the article too, but I’ll leave that. As a
Slav I have no issue with the term “slave”, not least because it’s not the
root of the word...

------
Seb-C
Next steps following this logic:

\- Stop using the word "communism" because it may offend ex-USSR citizens

\- Stop using the word "famine" because it may remind bad memories to some
africans

\- Stop using negative words to talk about the chinese government because it
could offend chinese people

\- Stop using the words "bible" and "jesus" because it might offend muslims

The world will sure become a better place without those negative feelings...

------
rurban
Another opinion: Instead for going after the words, go after the facts.

The US is the world's largest slave owner state. Their prison system is the
modern equivalent of a slave economy under slave jurisdiction, and the
treatment of illegal foreign labor not much different. How about legal
reforms?

~~~
arielserafini
Can't we do both?

~~~
myst
Why would you need to (re)invent words if there is no problem anymore?

~~~
arielserafini
So structural racism has ended?

~~~
asjw
Well, masters and slaves have existed longer before than structural racism

They were already there in Babylon over 4 thousands years ago.

~~~
asjw
It's kinda depressing to see the downvote, again, because people don't know
history

Slavery does not imply racism, it hasn't been the case for a very long time
throughout history, slaves were a social class, a synonym for what we call
"working class" or they were people from conquered lands, that were enslaved
as a display of suoremacy, not because of their ethnicity.

They usually were of the same ethnicity.

Rome had emperors who were born in Africa (Settimio Severo for example)

Have the slaves suffered abuses?

Yes, of course, just like working class, and farmers and other poor classes
before them, have been exploited.

French Revolution is all about that.

They were all French against other French.

Only in modern history slavery has been justified by racism (the theory that
some "races" were superior to others) but it's not modern slavery that created
racism, it's the opposite.

~~~
taylodl
Slavery in the United States was an especially brutal form of slavery referred
to as _chattel slavery_. In this form of slavery the slaves are not regarded
as even being _human_ , they are treated with the same regard as one would
treat an ox. American slaves were not the _working class_ as you describe.

~~~
chinesempire
Do you think Leopold the II slaves in Congo were considered human beings?

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrocities_in_the_Congo_Free...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrocities_in_the_Congo_Free_State)

Do you think slaves in Japan were treated equally?

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Japan#:~:text=Jap...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Japan#:~:text=Japan%20had%20an%20official%20slave,sex%20slaves%20from%201932%20%E2%80%93%201945).

There is nothing special in US slavery, except it happened in US and US has
been culturally relevant for the west since the end of WW2

One thing is the historical reasoning about it, another is thinking that it
happened only to one place in the world and only those people can talk about
it.

Don't get me wrong, slavery is a terrible and unjustifiable crime, but it
didn't start in US and it didn't end in 1861

~~~
taylodl
The United States was not the only country to ever employ chattel slavery -
it's not unique in that regard. It _is_ unique in that it's the only country
to end slavery due to civil war - a fact I think is very important in this
discussion. There are to this day a number of "rebels" as they call themselves
who believe themselves to be intellectually and morally superior to black
people, they want to keep black and whites separated, and they want to remind
blacks of their inferiority by prominently displaying statues of Confederate
Generals in the public square and promulgating the use of terms reminding
blacks of their inferior social standing. Terms such as blackmail, blacklist,
and master/slave. There's _way_ more behind this than just slavery and
snowflakes getting their feelings hurt.

~~~
chinesempire
> terms such as blackmail

Isn't it weird that people that don't know words etymology want to decide what
they mean for the rest of us?

> _1550s, "tribute paid to men allied with criminals as protection against
> pillage, etc.," from black (adj.) + Middle English male "rent, tribute,"
> from Old English mal "lawsuit, terms, bargaining, agreement," from Old Norse
> mal "speech, agreement;" related to Old English mæðel "meeting, council,"
> mæl "speech," Gothic maþl "meeting place," from Proto-Germanic _mathla-,
> from PIE _mod- "to meet, assemble" (see meet (v.)). _

In 1550 USA didn't even exist, not even in the form of colonies, that formed
after 1600.

The first known settlement in what we call US today is by the Spanish in 1513
that reached Florida.

So no, blackmail doesn't mean what you think it means and doesn't come from
where you think it does.

~~~
taylodl
Surely someone as smart as you understands the difference between denotation
and connotation?

------
MintelIE
This is really creepy and I have an intense dislike for the people behind it.
Nobody alive today was a slave and choosing to become ass hurt at industry
standard terms, which aren't even racial in nature (every race has been
enslaved), isn't acceptable.

I never used Github as my primary host for projects, merely as a social
network to show off my projects. But I'll be moving away from them now because
I simply don't want to see crazy lefties redefining my language to suit their
whims. And there's no discussion at all, it's all unilateral or you're a Nazi.

OK then.

------
spacephysics
They’re coming after tech. Don’t worry, changing terminology will change the
underlying issues. Just be careful not to cause thoughtcrime once neuralink is
feasible in a few decades.

