

The Impact of Dropping the SAT - tokenadult
http://www.insidehighered.com/layout/set/print/news/2009/03/26/sat

======
tokenadult
The submitted article says,

"These models suggest that any move away from the SAT or ACT in competitive
colleges results in significant gains in ethnic and economic diversity. But
the gains are greater for colleges that drop testing entirely, as opposed to
just making it optional. (To date, only one institution -- Sarah Lawrence
College -- has taken that step.)"

How does Sarah Lawrence College

[http://collegesearch.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.j...](http://collegesearch.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.jsp?collegeId=2844)

78% Women 22% Men

<1% American Indian/Alaskan Native 7% Asian/Pacific Islander 2% Black/Non-
Hispanic 5% Hispanic 71% White/Non-Hispanic 4% Non-Resident Alien 10%
Race/ethnicity unreported

37% in top 10th of graduating class 84% in top quarter of graduating class 98%
in top half of graduating class

39% had h.s. GPA of 3.75 and higher 25% had h.s. GPA between 3.5 and 3.74 14%
had h.s. GPA between 3.25 and 3.49 16% had h.s. GPA between 3.0 and 3.24 5%
had h.s. GPA between 2.5 and 2.99 1% had h.s. GPA between 2.0 and 2.49

compare with Harvard

[http://collegesearch.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.j...](http://collegesearch.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.jsp?collegeId=1251)

51% Women 49% Men

1% American Indian/Alaskan Native 19% Asian/Pacific Islander 8% Black/Non-
Hispanic 7% Hispanic 41% White/Non-Hispanic 10% Non-Resident Alien 15%
Race/ethnicity unreported

95% in top 10th of graduating class 100% in top quarter of graduating class

or Princeton

[http://collegesearch.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.j...](http://collegesearch.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.jsp?collegeId=4221)

50% Women 50% Men

<1% American Indian/Alaskan Native 17% Asian/Pacific Islander 7% Black/Non-
Hispanic 7% Hispanic 49% White/Non-Hispanic 11% Non-Resident Alien 8%
Race/ethnicity unreported

97% in top 10th of graduating class 100% in top quarter of graduating class

or MIT

[http://collegesearch.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.j...](http://collegesearch.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.jsp?collegeId=4075)

46% Women 54% Men

1% American Indian/Alaskan Native 25% Asian/Pacific Islander 9% Black/Non-
Hispanic 14% Hispanic 34% White/Non-Hispanic 9% Non-Resident Alien 7%
Race/ethnicity unreported

97% in top 10th of graduating class 100% in top quarter of graduating class

in student diversity?

------
mynameishere
The point of the SAT in the first place was to increase diversity. Back then,
it meant smart kids who weren't part of the establishment. Now, they want to
get rid of it to increase diversity. Except, now it means stupid kids who
aren't part of the establishment. The only group that remains the same are the
losers, and that's the whole point.

~~~
tokenadult
I'm not sure what you mean by "establishment" in this context, other than my
guess that I'm not part of the establishment.

After edit: Quite a few scholars contend that for a long time the student
characteristic that has set college availability even more than SAT scores is
family income. Laura D'Andrea Tyson, one of President Clinton's economics
advisors, called for taking student family income more into account in
admissions back in 2003:

[http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_27/b3840045_...](http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_27/b3840045_mz007.htm)

Several studies and journalistic reports have shown that in previous years,
student income limited college choices more than student test scores:

<http://www.tcf.org/Publications/Education/carnrose.pdf>

<http://harvardmagazine.com/2005/05/a-thumb-on-the-scale.html>

[http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200511/financial-aid-
leveragi...](http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200511/financial-aid-leveraging/4)

[http://www.jkcf.org/assets/files/0000/0084/Achievement_Trap....](http://www.jkcf.org/assets/files/0000/0084/Achievement_Trap.pdf)

Now some colleges claim to have outreach to increase socioeconomic diversity
on campus:

[http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2008/11...](http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2008/11/10/colleges_reach_out_to_poorer_students?mode=PF)

Based on what I have heard in anecdotes about this year's admission results,
Princeton, which was the first college in the Ivy League to announce a no-loan
financial aid policy, is in earnest about admitting more students from low-
income backgrounds.

~~~
sachinag
Establishment meant WASPs. Brandeis was set up as the Jewish Harvard because
high-performing Jewish high schoolers were getting passed over for Ivy League
admission for legacy WASPs. After World War II, the Ivies opened up
considerably and the "need" for a Jewish school diminished although it
maintains its identity (the same as HBCUs, for example).

The issue of the SATs still being a fantastic determinant of first year
college success says _something_ , but I'm not sure what. Perhaps the colleges
would let in more minorities, but they'd not perform as well? Would those
minorities do better since more of them would get in and they wouldn't be as
isolated as they are now?

------
defen
I love how diversi-crats treat college education as a fungible commodity - if
we can just get more minorities into the Ivy League, we'll magically solve all
of their problems. Putting someone into an academic environment which is too
far beyond his capabilities is a bad idea.

~~~
snprbob86
Agreed. This is the fundamental flaw with the affirmative action and other
diversity advocates.

Artificially increasing diversity is institutional racism which only serves to
mitigate a symptom, not eliminate a cause. Rather than forcibly put more
minorities through college, we should improve schools in poor and
underprivileged neighborhoods.

Unfortunately, this real solution may take 10 to 20 years to see results...
which is far shorter than the average term in public office.

~~~
sketerpot
Schools can only do so much. If by putting more minorities through college you
can increase the average level of education among minority parents (when those
students have kids), you may be able to improve their kids' educations as a
side-effect.

~~~
snprbob86
I'd much prefer that everyone get a proper primary education than a few people
struggle through a secondary education to bet on their children.

------
jonallanharper
This is the same kind of crap that started the housing bubble... social
engineers doing what they just feel in their heart is right for society.

The results will be tons of mediocre graduates unable to pay back their loans.
That's OK... we'll pick up the tab; no fucking problem!

~~~
queensnake
Are you an iSteve reader? He talks about how affirmative action wrt getting
minorities into law school does many no good when it comes to the bar exam.
And by then they've wasted their lawschool time.

[http://isteve.blogspot.com/2006/09/sacrificing-smart-
black-k...](http://isteve.blogspot.com/2006/09/sacrificing-smart-black-kids-
on-altar.html)

------
swolchok
So there are at least two interpretations of this data (I'll admit I skimmed a
bit torward the end).

1) The SAT is measuring things other than academic ability/achievement,
particularly non-academic cultural differences between a significant portion
of the cited minorities and those having more success getting into SAT-
mandatory institutions. This seems to be implicit in many calls for diversity.

2) The SAT IS a good measure of academic ability/achiement/admissibility, and
statistically speaking, the cited minorities just aren't as likely to have the
requsite levels of whatever academic oomph the test is measuring, presumably
for environmental reasons.

~~~
tokenadult
Right. This is what I find puzzling about the submitted article's report about
the soon-to-be presented study

[http://www.wfu.edu/provost/rethinkingadmissions/conference_p...](http://www.wfu.edu/provost/rethinkingadmissions/conference_program.php)

\--very little information about how much student characteristics would change
along other dimensions besides ethnic diversity if the SAT were not considered
at all as an admission factor.

------
jerf
I'd have felt a lot better about the article if it wasn't for the word "model"
sprinkled liberally through the piece. It sounded an awful lot to me like they
could have just _looked_ for the evidence of the effect they are claiming, and
I find myself wondering if they used a model because it was easier, or if they
did in fact look and failed to come up with the morally-correct evidence.

It's easy; go look at those colleges that didn't consider the test, then
compare the statistical outcomes predicted by the SAT for those who took it
and what actually happened. (There may be some correlations to sniff out ("I
know I'm only applying to non-SAT colleges so I won't take the test"), but I
bet it's managable.)

Diversity's great and all (though when I say diversity, I mean _real_
diversity and not a whole bunch of differently-colored people all believing
the same thing, but that's a topic for a different discussion...), but it's
evil to skew statistics to increase the number of "diverse" students taking
out increasingly expensive loans who then do not end up with a degree just so
you can feel good about how many happy rainbowed diversities your college has.
If that is what is going on here. I admit I can't prove it but I don't like
the smell.

(Yes, there are serious issues with educational opportunities that should be
addressed, and I don't know what the solution is. I just know the solution
_isn't_ forcing the already-behind to take on tens of thousands of dollars of
useless debt.)

~~~
tokenadult
_It's easy; go look at those colleges that didn't consider the test_

The submitted article says there is exactly one such college, which I think
from other sources I have read is correct. And the figures for that college
are already posted to this thread.

------
andylei
well, duh. minorities and underprivileged individuals get lower sat scores.
colleges that take into account sat scores prefer students with higher sat
scores, all else equal. why did they need to do a "study" to come to this
conclusion?

