
Website Impounded - ssclafani
http://fitnesssf.com/
======
zdw
I don't see the problem with this. People deserve to be paid for the work they
do, and time they expend, which is irreplaceable.

If you take your car to the shop and can't pay for the work to be done, they
put a mechanic's lien on it, and impound the car until the work is paid for.
This is no different from that method, which is totally legal.

Similarly, I've met software developers who set timebombs in custom software
they write for companies, with an easy to install patch that gets released
when that company pays it's bill.

If you're out to screw someone over and take their work without paying them,
then being deprived of the utility of the unpaid work is the minimum amount of
damage you should expect.

~~~
greaterweb
"If you take your car to the shop and can't pay for the work to be done, they
put a mechanic's lien on it, and impound the car until the work is paid for.
This is no different from that method, which is totally legal."

There is a big difference, actually. There is pretty standard protocol and
work agreements for automotive repair. This developer may have exposed himself
to a level of risk based on his own contracts and work arrangement. Why was
the site up in the first place if he was not paid in full?

"Similarly, I've met software developers who set timebombs in custom software
they write for companies, with an easy to install patch that gets released
when that company pays it's bill."

Wow, this is just scary. The work relationship is doomed if the developer
doesn't trust the customer or vice versa. If you are in the business of making
money through software development, be skilled not only in developing but in
assembling contracts and project plans that protect your interests.

~~~
ultramundane8
So let's say that the customer always pays on time and the developer did build
this sort of time bomb. (And let's assume no technical knowledge on the part
of the customer. Therefore, the time bomb is never discovered.)

Are you saying that the relationship was negatively affected?

I would claim that the developer could mistrust the customer without elsewhere
mistreating them.

~~~
npsimons
There are way, way, way too many ways for this to go wrong. What if you are
indisposed (in the hospital, dead, etc) when it comes time to apply the patch?
What if an attacker finds the security hole and exploits it before you apply
the patch? And don't tell me this isn't a security hole (eg, a backdoor),
because it could easily be or become one. Knowingly delivering compromised
software is flat out unethical and borders on vigilantism and/or fraud. I
don't condone one party failing to hold up their end of the deal when the
other party has, and I don't think that "defacing" a website that someone
doesn't legally own (they haven't paid for it) is wrong, but putting time
bombs in software should _never_ be done.

~~~
koenigdavidmj
This seems much the same as a DRM mechanism on a single-player game that
requires a live network connection to phone home to the server. In either
case, you have software refusing to function unless its creator gives
approval. The only difference is that this is known to the player of the game.

------
fencepost
My suspicion is that this is being done _because_ it's international. If
Fitness SF is as I suspect in San Francisco while the developer is in Europe,
collections will be a real headache. Sue? Sure, probably where you are,
probably win. Then collect from the European presence of a California fitness
club. I see a potential disconnect.

Sue in California? How much is THAT going to cost someone based in Europe?

And really, what recourse does Fitness SF have either? If they sue him, maybe
they win. Maybe that makes it hard for him to come to the USA. Is that a
problem for him? Can they legitimately go after him vs his company (and vice
versa). It's a no-win situation all around.

I'd say that the big lesson to be learned from this is that international
customers pay up-front and with a deposit if you're going to allow things that
increase the price (e.g. rush changes). For most things there's not usually a
good reason to add the expense and complication of 12-hour time differences
and international borders unless you're planning up front to make legal
recourse difficult.

~~~
fencepost
Editing on a phone is quirky, so further detail: the AdWeek profile lists him
as being in Germany. Also, of all the cities in the USA, Fitness SF was unable
to find a designer they liked in _San Francisco_? Please.

~~~
justincormack
Design is a global market to a large extent, there is no reason why they
should choose a local one.

~~~
mgkimsal
There's plenty of reasons to choose local though:

1\. Keep money in the local economy. 2\. Build a local network. 3\. Have face
to face meetings to get your ideas across more quickly - whiteboarding, seeing
facial reactions to comps, hands-on testing, etc.

I've done remote work, and I've done work with clients in my local area.
There's reasons for both, but _most_ clients I work with _want_ local, or at
least want the ability to meet face to face on occasion. The few that didn't
want to (or even declined attempts to meet f2f) either skipped out on their
bill, or were wanting extremely commodity services (install wordpress on my
server, fix this javascript error, etc).

------
wonderyak
This is probably as good a time as any to rehash Mike Montiero's talk 'Fuck
You, Pay Me' <http://vimeo.com/22053820>

I've been instructed to do things like this by past employers and I've never
been comfortable with it. There are other avenues to persuing payment for
services than defacing someone's property (assumption on my part, admittedly)
and creating a firestorm of hatred to be imposed upon them in other mediums
and venues.

To me, this is childish and an attempt at trying the easy way out of a
situation.

Always have contracts, always get paid in installments. If you cannot get
those things from clients, then you do not want them as clients.

~~~
homosaur
Oh yeah, it would be sooooo much better for a small business to spend possibly
thousands and thousands of dollars on a judgement that will never get paid.
But you are right about installments. I have a very specific set of language
in my contracts regarding payment and deliverables. And if they stole my code
which this guy claims, well, I'd probably pull something like this before
bothering to spend thousands of dollars on a wasted legal battle.

------
pasbesoin
I did some work for a _family member_ and their business partners, at a time
when they were in great financial straights, and eventually got stiffed by
them (the partners outweighed the family member -- no problem with the
latter).

 _Get paid in a timely fashion!_

If this is somehow "inconvenient" for the other party... they are already not
valuing your contribution. Walk away.

Trust your intuition, too. If something "feels off", it probably is. I had
that feeling early on, with those partners. I stayed in it for the sake of the
family member (no regrets, from that perspective).

P.S. To clarify, they pulled through and ended up doing ok. At which time,
they stiffed me. It was not a matter of their failure.

------
robotjosh
I wouldn't change anyone's website to say they haven't paid a bill. It won't
let you collect any easier and you might get sued and lose.

At some point you have to say no more work until we get settled up to this
point.

~~~
EToS
Agree entirely with this.. often i take 30% up front, 30% when prototyped, and
final 40% payment upon delivery

~~~
PotatoEngineer
Can you live on 60%? That is, how hard is it if a large customer decides to
ignore that last payment?

~~~
chrismsnz
Then it doesn't get delivered.

EDIT: Having the "finished" site on a test host (or even just a temporary DNS
name) until the final payment seems like a shrewd move. The work is complete,
but if you don't get final payment it doesn't go live.

------
rglover
Hand down my favorite phrase from our contract:

 _At the designated point in the project and after final payment has been
received, we will present you with all files pertaining to your project._

~~~
thisisdallas
Exactly.

I have something along the same line in my contract. I never give the client
all the files or set up the site until I have been paid in full. I regularly
send them updates, screenshots and allow them to test out sites on the dev
server but I never give them a finished product without being paid in full.
Before I start, there is a 50% retainer. After the design is completed the
client pays 25% of the total. After the development is completed they owe the
final 25% and once they pay their last invoice they get the final product.
With this system, I have never had a problem. That's not to say it's perfect
but I do believe it's a great way to handle payments.

~~~
nwh
On a fairly regular basis I see print jobs being requested that have
watermarks of the designer over it; clearly the client hasn't paid and is
going to print with the low quality proof. It's weird that people believe it
to be acceptable.

~~~
rglover
This works out in the end, really. It's a shame, but it's a hell of a great
indicator for who to avoid. If I had to guess, the justification in their mind
is that they still get the work. Though in reality, they're just painting a
sign on their forehead that reads "I'm clueless."

------
greaterweb
I do empathize with this guys position but he is way out of line here. There
is an implied risk in doing business, be it freelance or trough a traditional
business.

Your first line of defense would be a solid contract and a fairly decent
deposit. If you lead with a strong reputation clients will have no problem
making the investment with you. If you lack the experience and reputation,
maybe you shouldn't be getting involved in projects like this that leave you
at risk.

Next would be proper project planning and _clear_ delivery milestones that
have payments associated with them. It is not wise to put yourself in a
situation where you lead with design and development and receive the bulk of
payment when the project is complete. Without a clear project plan and
deliverables scope creep can introduce itself and you can wind up eating the
cost of additional work to satisfy the client. And even then you are still
crossing your fingers the check will come before the next "quick update."

The problem I have with what the developer has done here is that he has abused
his position to leverage a client's domain to support his view of the
situation. We don't know the clients side and they are left without a voice
here.

The developer may very well be the victim here but I've got to believe it was
his business practices that made him vulnerable here.

~~~
johnpowell
Well, the client did go through the trouble of deleting their facebook pages
that the site linked to.

So they did have a voice but took a knife to their own larynx instead of
telling their side of the story.

------
gdiaz
Looks like they took all their fitnesssf facebook pages down.
[https://www.evernote.com/shard/s15/sh/d1096855-0c3a-4ed6-a87...](https://www.evernote.com/shard/s15/sh/d1096855-0c3a-4ed6-a877-a60057e95a57/25a341bfd02a89354e6849fe8213ca79)
lots of people telling them to pay their invoices. And the owner trying to do
damage control by telling people their website got hacked.

~~~
greaterweb
This is an unfortunate side effect of what this developer has set in motion. I
don't know enough about either side to make a determination of who is right or
wrong, but neither do the people harassing this business on Facebook.

From his Behance page: "Half a year's worth of work, weeks of waiting on end
because they couldn't find the fingers at the end of their arms and in the end
they try to screw me over by ignoring the invoices. "

That a pretty aggressive play in words. I suspect if he is really looking for
"justice" he'd gain a lot more support in exposing the entire situation, not
just some pretty screen shots and shouting about unpaid invoices.

I for one am genuinely interested in learning more about this, both sides
preferably.

~~~
homosaur
No, I don't think it was an unfortunate side effect, I think it's exactly what
he wanted to happen. I know if I were a customer at that gym that I would
never be back if someone was trying to screw with my industry. I'd also tell
everyone I ever knew not to go there.

My guess is that this was not the method of first resort.

~~~
greaterweb
You may be right, it may be exactly what he wanted to happen.

The trouble I have thus far is the information is insufficient to make a fair
determination of who is right and who is wrong. People are having knee-jerk
reactions and harassing the gym without fully knowing the story, and yes, that
is truly unfortunate.

If you are ready to close the case on this one simply by a developer claiming
he wasn't paid, well, you may wish to rethink your logic with that one.

Has anyone vouched for the credibility of this developer? Have more details
surfaced as to the extent of the invoice dispute? Without those answers it's
unfounded to hold anything against this gym solely based on the developers
claims that he wasn't paid.

~~~
homosaur
Yeah, you're right, we don't necessarily know the details, but if I were the
gym owner and I felt like I was in the right, I'd stand up for myself rather
than cower, close down all my Facebook pages to not face criticism, and tell
everyone my site was hacked. That's really the single biggest reason I think
the gym is most likely in the wrong.

------
EToS
I can empathise with this a lot, but would not recommend going this far, if
nothing other than for your own reputation and professionalism. Other clients
could see this without fully understanding the situation, potentially losing
business.

In previous cases ive been involved in, taking down the site sending in debt
collectors is often the easiest and cleanest method of getting back your
money.

~~~
mgkimsal
" if nothing other than for your own reputation and professionalism"...

And the professionalism of fitnesssf - of not paying their vendors - gets
swept under the rug for dozens of other vendors to have to discover on their
own, individually, in silence. Great.

"Professionalism" really has to work both ways. If you want me to treat you
professionally, treat me professionally. What lines does someone have to cross
before they lose that professionalism from you? Financial abuse? Emotional
abuse? Verbal abuse? Physical abuse?

"Other clients could see this without fully understanding the situation,
potentially losing business."

There's not _that_ much to understand. What's easy to understand is that if
you don't pay your bills with developer X, they will take public action
against you. If you're the type of person who plans on skipping out on bills,
you may avoid developer X. I think developer X would be _thrilled_ to have
potential 'business' like that self-select out of his customer base. I know
_I_ would be.

~~~
mediascreen
While I can understand the frustration, I would argue that professionalism
does not have to work both ways. If your client acts unprofessionally, you
should still act professionally. Try conventional ways to reclame the what you
are owed and if all else fails, take the site down - possibly with a small
notice that says something like "Site offline until payment in full".

What OP did is illegal in many countries in Europe and from what I understand
probably in Germany as well. It doesn't matter if the statements are true,
it's still defamation. [http://www.gesetze-im-
internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stg...](http://www.gesetze-im-
internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#p1669)

~~~
dhimes
Furthermore, we have to remember that we are only hearing one side of the
story. I believe it...tentatively.

------
jstalin
That web designer turned a contract issue into a potential tortious
interference issue -- against him.

~~~
tptacek
Is the claim here really tortious interference? Or is it conversion? Or
something else? Taking down a deadbeat client's website if they're entirely in
breach of the contract that created it seems like it would be reasonable, but
I agree that hosting a new website in its place to broadcast a grievance is
probably a bad idea.

I had fairly complicated Python and C code I'm reviewing coming out of my ears
so I did some research on this to clear my head. I couldn't find any solid
answers. I'd be interested in hearing one from a lawyer, because this comes up
on HN every now and then.

Back to code review for me. Wish me luck.

~~~
jstalin
Conversion might work too. Of course, any suit would probably go after them
using as many legal theories as possible. Tortious interference comes into
play when you are purposely trying to interfere with someone else's business
arrangements, either those already existing or those expected to occur.
There's a difference between taking someone's site down for non-payment and
putting up a statement saying that X Company doesn't pay its bills that X
Company has bad morals. Corporate defamation would be another that I would add
to the list.

Of course, then there's the practical reality of suing a company in Germany
from SF.

~~~
analog
"Corporate defamation would be another that I would add to the list."

It's not defamation if it's true of course.

------
rickdale
I am sorry, but this guy is way out of line here. Legally I have no idea, but
morally, I do. I mean, go to the place and talk to someone. Or take down the
site. Don't start a campaign for your feelings.

edit: On second thought I was eating a restaurant when their televisions
turned black and the screen came up with a pay your bill now notice. Every
screen in the restaurant. So I guess maybe this is the tactic.

~~~
chris_wot
It's morally wrong not to pay your bills. If they are being shamed, tough
luck. Pay the one you owe money to.

~~~
iamtyce
I absolutely agree. I've been in this position as a frontend dev many, many
times. And that's WITH a decent contract, no bad gut feeling, great
communication throughout. Ultimately, I can't control whether a client feels
like paying my invoice or not. I commend this developer, he's done something
I've always wanted to do.

------
joshcrews
Freelancers and agencies: consider having all work prepaid. Your fears may say
that clients won't go for it, but they are going for it with other
agencies/consultants, and in other professions this is a mainstream way of
doing business.

Government and huge corporate sales might not go for it, but you should be
adding a 0 to the end of your price quotes to them as compensation.

~~~
dhimes
That wouldn't work for me as a client: I've dealt wit scummy freelancers, too.

You could consider going through an agency- one that offers the ability to (1)
escrow money, (2) keep a written record of agreements, and (3) provide
mediation. There are costs to this, but, at least until you trust each other,
they may be the way to go.

~~~
joshcrews
I have everyone prepay me for Rails development. I think the reason it's not
an issue is that they've worked with bad freelancers, and people that drop the
ball, flake out, stop answering emails.

They don't want that so bad that they will prepay me because they believe I'm
not going to do that to them, they really want me to do their project, and so
prepayment is a non-issue.

Edit: I haven't asked for $30,000 in advance before; more like 20 hour blocks
of time, or thirds of projects paid in advance

~~~
dhimes
OK- a deposit I _fully_ agree with. But when I have prepaid (or paid the last
installment before receiving the final code) I've been burned. In fact, a
freelancer owes me some code as we speak that I will never see- but I don't
really care because, surprise surprise, his code sucks too and I've someone
else re-doing it.

In fact, maybe that's a better bellweather: look at samples of code. The more
professional it looks, the more professional I can expect the interaction to
be. Seems reasonable- what do you think?

------
mischanix
Archived the source for when this inevitably is reverted:
<https://gist.github.com/anonymous/4955465>

The page embeds <http://clients.frankjonen.com/fitnesssf> in a frame.

~~~
feverishaaron
Did you consult an attorney before doing this? I'm curious what the
ramifications are. Back in my boutique days, we were stiffed several times,
but I never wanted to pull a stunt like this for fear of legal retribution.

Instead, I hired some very good collectors, and had a stipulation in my
contract that the customer was required to pay collection fees for invoices
over 60 days late.

This resulted in my company getting paid in full all but twice.

~~~
mischanix
Ah, I'm not the one who did this; and as an American, I never would--easier to
resolve it more traditionally. However, the client being American and the firm
being European, I can see how this became the option of choice.

~~~
delwin
That seems a little prejudiced. I know Americans who would do this. That
doesn't make them less American. I know Germans who wouldn't. That doesn't
make them not German. No generalizations, thank you.

~~~
swampthing
Might be mis-reading, but I took his comment to mean just that it would be
harder for an international company to resolve this through the court system
here in the US (and thus other approaches become more attractive).

------
boksiora
Good man i like it. If you let them go they will never learn

------
lowlevel
_Developers look up extortion in the dictionary_ ... We're new to it, though.
If we had more experience...

------
state
This is unprofessional, this is going to be a nightmare for the developer and
probably wont result in him getting paid. It's not the right thing to do.

I agree with most of the other comments here, but I'm still impressed. It's
always fun to see someone really going for it.

~~~
ceejayoz
Anyone doing this has generally already resigned themselves to not getting
paid for the job.

------
pseingatl
This is a great idea. Those who write, "go to small claims court" don't know
what they're talking about. In small claims you may win your case, but that
does not mean you can collect your money. Collection efforts must then
commence; working from another country makes collection impractical. More
importantly, this matter points out that a web site is a valuable asset which
can be levied or seized for failure to pay a debt generally. So if I buy a
car, sue the dealer in small claims court and win, I can seize the dealer's
web site and sell it (or hold it) as compensation. A world of possibilities.

------
piqufoh
Ouch - this seems like an overly emotional approach to an obviously worrying
problem, and I do sympathise with the guy - I imagine if I were in the same
position then this would make me feel good, for about 6 hours.

Then I'd realise that I was possibly being a dick and just a blank page with
"Please contact accounts@host" as kibibu said would have done (and not pissed
anyone off too bad).

------
chris_wot
I applaud them or this. This is exactly what happened to me, only worse. I
worked day and night, at times driving for 4 hours to the ACT to get to client
sites. For absolutely nothing. I didn't get paid. There was no point pursuing
it in the courts, and frankly I don't want to live a bitter life.

But these people are scum. Good on them for showing them up.

------
silentmars
Fitnesssf took down their Facebook pages.

------
bradleyjoyce
Checkout <http://www.zencash.com> to help avoid this issue.

------
yuhong
Also see [http://www.adweek.com/adfreak/agency-replaces-clients-
websit...](http://www.adweek.com/adfreak/agency-replaces-clients-website-
nasty-letter-after-not-getting-paid-147291)

------
seyfarth
This is unprofessional.

~~~
damm
I would suggest that what the original customer did was theft. They would
still be reaping the profits of their thievery had not stopped it.

Legality is the hard part, which is likely why this company went the way it
did. Most people would prefer a 'This site is down due to non-payment' or a
'we are down'.

That's trying to swim upstream without a paddle, this is slippery enough
without trying to on the right side.

~~~
danielweber
I have no pity for fitnesssf, but that doesn't mean that the creator's actions
are okay. (I'm not sure they aren't okay, either.)

------
dayyan
I feel unless you are an expert in law, debating the legality of this
pointless.

What I am interested in is what the site used to look like. Anyone got
screenshots or a cache link?

------
digitalengineer
I don't get it. A legally binding contract was signed before they took on the
job, right? Doesn't that offer legal protection?

~~~
mgkimsal
And 'legal' protection means waiting years in courts, then potentially years
more to collect on that judgement (assuming you actually win). I don't know
the story behind this, but they may have already waited months before taking
this sort of action.

And as someone else said - really? An SF-based company contracted with someone
in _Germany_ to do their website? Seems to be they were doing this on purpose,
to avoid paying. I had a similar situation with someone in NYC who didn't pay
- found out later his company had a habit of doing this to small contractors
out of state - you're telling me you can't find a web developer in NYC?

In my case, yes, I sued - drove to NYC and filed a suit. It's been 4.5 years,
and I still don't have a court date.

~~~
chc
Does small claims court really take years? I haven't needed to directly
interact with it before, but that was not my impression from acquaintances who
have to go there quite often.

~~~
mgkimsal
"small claims" generally only deals with issues under $5000

~~~
chc
Ah, I think around here it's $10000, but you're right that it looks like $5000
is normal. Good point.

------
bitcartel
What did the site look like before? Can't find anything in the Wayback
Machine.

~~~
cody_bonney
They posted some screenshots (along with some ranting) at
<http://talent.adweek.com/gallery/Fitness-SF-Website/7075381>

------
rdouble
That's too bad, their SOMA location is the only good gym in the city.

------
eksith
I like the background color.

