
OK Seriously What Is BizSpark? - robconery
http://blog.wekeroad.com/microsoft/hey-kid-come-over-here
======
kogir
I'm one of Loopt's co-founders. Loopt uses Microsoft's stack (the reasons why
are off topic here), and was licensing Windows Server, SQL Server, and Visual
Studio through the SPLA program before BizSpark was available. We joined
BizSpark right when it launched.

BizSpark consists primarily of two things: (1) a one-on-one contact to provide
advice, to arrange partnership opportunities (marketing, etc), and to provide
introductions to the Microsoft product teams as needed; and (2) free software
licenses (which you get to keep at the end of the program). Loopt has also
received other benefits, like access to their compatibility labs, conference
passes, etc.

With BizSpark, Microsoft is confident enough in the quality of their offering
that there's no commitment. You chose to use as much or as little of what is
offered as you want, and there is zero pressure. We make use of various open
source technologies[1]. It's not a problem. Also, at the end of the program
they offer an extremely generous graduation offer[2] with no financial
obligation.

After that, Microsoft's volume licensing is reasonable[3], the tools are well
documented, and everything works as expected. Their stack is predictable,
consistent, and dependable. If you want to be able to focus on your product
instead of the tools you're using[4], then the Microsoft stack is great. Note:
It's cheaper to have your tools work than to hire someone on salary to
maintain and debug them.

[1] Ubuntu, PostgreSQL, MySQL, Ruby, Rails, etc.

[2] <http://www.bizspark.com/Programs/Pages/GraduationOffer.aspx> I can't
discuss the details of Loopt's custom offer (we exceed the standard usage by a
fair amount), but we'll be much better off after BizSpark than we were before.
Microsoft has been very generous.

[3] See the SPLA program:
[http://www.microsoft.com/hosting/en/us/licensing/splabenefit...](http://www.microsoft.com/hosting/en/us/licensing/splabenefits.aspx)

[4] Not that they aren't extensible if needed. Back before ASP.Net MVC and WCF
(and before Thrift, Protocol Buffers, and Rails) we wrote a ton of our own
custom web and RPC tooling. ASP.Net is actually really nice but gets a bad rap
because of web forms (which you don't have to use, and have improved
substantially in the latest release). IIS 7 rocks as a transport agnostic
application server, and can do MSMQ, TCP, UDP and more (it's extensible) in
addition to HTTP.

~~~
cabalamat
> _the tools are well documented, and everything works as expected. Their
> stack is predictable, consistent, and dependable. If you want to be able to
> focus on your product instead of the tools you're using[4], then the
> Microsoft stack is great. Note: It's cheaper to have your tools work than to
> hire someone on salary to maintain and debug them._

I don't doubt all you say is true. But consider someone (like me for example)
with a Unixy skill-set. I know PHP, MySQL, PhpMyAdmin, Python, Django, Unix
text processing tools, etc, and while the MS equivalents may well be very
good, when you factor in my time learning to use them, I'm not going to be as
productive.

One of the reasons I know all these tools is that getting started is simply
_sudo apt-get install whatever_ and I'm off. If MS want a higher uptake of
their developer tools, they might make them as easy to get at as that.

I understand that with BizSpark I can use Microsoft's tools without paying
much money. But there's a bureaucratic process to getting on the BizSpark
program, which I'm guessing takes days or weeks to achieve. By comparison,
_sudo apt-get install_ takes seconds.

And that's why I'm using Unix-based tools in my startup.

~~~
allwein
You've created a nice little strawman there.

Microsoft offers free versions of their developer tools with the various
Visual Studio Express editions and Sql Server Express.

If you're looking into more enterprise-y software, Microsoft offers free time-
limited versions of pretty much all their server and productivity software.

~~~
jbooth
It's not a straw-man. To get that free version, I've got to go to MSDN,
register, jump through a bunch of hoops, download some way-too-big installer,
run a long installation process, reboot a couple times.. I mean, not that I
would ever think of pirating software from a giant corporation that wouldn't
even notice the lost revenue, but bittorrent is only very slightly more work
than all of that.

apt-get is a whole different plane of ease. It adds about a 3-second fixed-
cost to trying a new tool.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
Have you ever actually _done_ it? The process of "fill out a form once," hit
the Download button and walk away then come back an hour later to answer a few
setup questions with Visual Studio is far from the onerous task you make it
seem.

I'm no MS fanboy -- my current side project is PHP/LAMP all the way, but I
have made money with their free tools.

~~~
gnufreex
And if their stuff doesn't work as expected? "Sorry, you are not paying
customer, so buzz off" or "sorry, but not enough paying customers want that
fixed. You are minority, your money is worthless, so buzz off". While with
Free Software you can have your people fix it, or hire consultant. I don't
believe in that Bill Gates' ( <http://www.cantrip.org/nobugs.html> )
"Microsoft code has no bugs" religious gospel. All software has bugs, except
Free one can get fixed.

------
mikesaraf
I'm a co-founder of a little startup project that got accepted in the BizSpark
program and I can say it has definitely been a benefit to us and will be to
our users when we launch in late January. We're building a web app for a
vertical in the attorney space, it's a rails app built completely on an open
source stack.

Why do we need BizSpark? While we would like for our customers to use our web
app exclusively, the reality is the majority of practices run Windows and
Office. So we built Exchange and Outlook integration using the tools provided
by BizSpark. If we hadn't had access to those tools we still would have built
the product, but we wouldn't have Exchange and Outlook support at launch. The
benifit for us; We built a product better suited for our customers. The
benefit for MS: They have another product on the list of thousands that has
custom support and integration with their office suite, their bread and
butter.

Clearly the biggest benefit for us has been access to thousands in software we
otherwise couldn't afford. But we will be looking at the opportunities to
network with partners and investors through BizSpark when we're ready.

I see it as a win for us and an ever so tiny win (because of our small user
base) for Microsoft.

~~~
mindcrime
What kind of conditions do they impose on you as a part of the program? Is
there any stuff like "an app built using Bizspark that supports Microsoft
office cannot also support OpenOffice / LibreOffice," or "your app can't be
open-source?" Etc?

Is it just software, or do they provide any sort of assistance with doing the
integration with their stuff?

I'm curious since I could see a use for Sharepoint integration and even
Outlook / Office integration for some of what I'm working on, but I'd still be
leery of the whole "it's a trap" thing with Microsoft.

~~~
jf
I work for Microsoft. Part of my job is talking about BizSpark.

BizSpark doesn't impose any conditions like you listed, to qualify for
BizSpark, you just need to meet the requirements listed here:
[https://www.microsoft.com/BizSpark/Faqs.aspx#Startup-
Questio...](https://www.microsoft.com/BizSpark/Faqs.aspx#Startup-Question1)

We don't have a formal way to offer assistance to startups looking to
integrate with our software. That said, I'd love to talk to anybody who is
interested doing integrations with Microsoft software.

~~~
mindcrime
Hmmm... when I tried that URL in Chrome, I get:

"You attempted to reach www.microsoft.com, but the certificate that the server
presented has been revoked by its issuer. This means that the security
credentials the server presented absolutely should not be trusted. You may be
communicating with an attacker. You should not proceed."

Just FYI...

~~~
jf
Odd. Are you getting the correct certificate? You should be getting a
certificate with a fingerprint of: "ea 22 6c ac ce 3f 1c b3 47 d9 f7 8f 60 31
d3 ba 41 07 91 99"

You can use this command to double-check the certificate on your local (POSIX)
machine or on a remote server:

    
    
      echo '' | openssl s_client -connect www.microsoft.com:443 | openssl x509 -noout -fingerprint

------
vyrotek
In short, free MSDN subscriptions for startups.

Our company is part of the program and we basically get access to _everything_
for 3 years. We're talking VS 2010, SQL Server, Windows, Azure hours and much
more.

~~~
robconery
But it's not free if it's only 3 years - you still have to pay don't you? I'm
not arguing the utility of it - I'm wondering if you would have paid anyway -
or if the 3 year "loan" made a difference.

~~~
kenjackson
It's not a loan. It's free. At the end of the three years you can keep the
software, continue using it, and never pay a dime to Microsoft (actually
$100).

You can in theory, build Google on it, make $50B over 20 years, and never pay
MS a dime, all while using MS software.

With that said, if you do want to upgrade to new versions of the software
after 3 years, then you'll have to pay for upgrades. But that's like saying
that someone giving you a new car for free isn't really free, if they don't
give you a new car every year. Or if ATT and Apple give you an iPhone and
service free for 3 years, its not really free unless they give you a new
iPhone every 3 years (and free ATT service).

~~~
robconery
Have a read here (I think this is what you're referring to):
<http://www.bizspark.com/Programs/Pages/GraduationOffer.aspx>

Note that if you keep your MSDN license, it doesn't entitle you to use much in
production. You can't, for instance, run SQL Server in production using an
MSDN license. Nor can you use Exchange and Windows Server.

So it's not free :).

~~~
kenjackson
To quote:

"Startups may keep and continue to use, for development and testing purposes,
all the software they received as part of their BizSpark MSDN Subscription. In
other words, they have perpetual development and test rights to that
software."

"The BizSpark Graduation Offer allows BizSpark startups to keep, at no charge,
all the software they acquired through the BizSpark program"

"Under the graduation offer, the MSDN Ultimate licenses that came with
BizSpark are perpetual, so startups keep all the tools and platform software
they got from the program for development and testing purposes, including
Visual Studio and Expression"

"Similarly, startups will also have perpetual rights to all of their Windows
and SQL Server production licenses"

Now your claim may be that BizSpark doesn't supply enough licenses for you,
but it is FREE. After BizSpark is done, you never have to pay MS a cent to
keep and use the SW acquired in BizSpark.

In fact, I didn't realize they'd waived the $100 fee.

Like I said, if you want to upgrade or get additional licenses, you have to
pay for those. You can build your $50B empire all on BizSpark, although you'll
just have to write a very efficient backend to handle the transactions with
only a couple of SQL instances, but there is nothing stopping you, but your
ingenuity :-)

~~~
johns
From that same page: _The BizSpark Graduation Offer assumes a standard
production configuration of 4 Windows Server Standard Edition and 2 SQL Server
Standard Edition (Proc) which we believe will meet the needs of most startups.
For startups who have different or greater needs, the BizSpark team will work
with them to build a customized configuration at graduation._

~~~
kogir
I can't reveal details but the graduation offer Loopt has received (a
customized configuration) is fantastic. We'll be much better off at the end
than when we started, and don't regret it for a second.

It's absolutely not a bait and switch.

~~~
robconery
That's great that it works for you - and I don't think anyone is suggesting
it's a bait and switch (I tried to be very careful with the post's wording).
My point in this thread isn't that it's duplicitous - more that it's not free.

I'm sure you guys had to work some licensing (which probably came under an
agreement to enroll in another program). This isn't free - it's an engagement.
If you left the program you would have to pay, I'm sure.

And if it works for you - that's good stuff. I'd be very interested in reading
about your choices and why you went this route.

~~~
kogir
You're absolutely right. I didn't intend to put words in your mouth. I've just
had discussions before where that came up.

Loopt was paying for licensing before we joined, and will be paying less
after.

I could be wrong, but as I understand it:

* The dev tools are free, and continue to be so at the end. This is a huge deal by itself.

* Some number of server licenses are perpetually free.

It's possible for it to be completely free, though it needn't be if you aren't
careful or choose to exceed the limits.

------
kenjackson
Unless you don't plan on your software running on a Windows-based machine,
seems like a no-brainer.

Regarding MS's lack of self-promotion. They tend to self-promote what they
believe and are mum on other stuff. Like WP7 and Azure -- they won't say its
the best, but that its a marathon, not a sprint. But with Visual Studio,
they'll happily tell you that it is the best. SQL Server, they'll enumerate
the scenarios where they're the best. And with Office, they have no problem
making the claim that it's the best office productivity platform.

While Rob would like more self-promotion... I think its fair to say that if
you don't know what your tools are good at and are looking at a company to
tell you then BizSpark (or any other program) probably won't help you.

------
wiseleo
We are a bizspark company.

It is a great way to get noticed by Microsoft. If you do not already have lots
of contacts at high level, this will help.

All you can eat software really helps.

I develop in C# because my visual studio ultimate edition makes it extremely
convenient. I can write code directly as a result of creating a UML model.

Bizspark accelerates startups by removing software barriers. We integrate with
Exchange and Dynamics CRM, so for us it was an obvious strategy.

Bizspark One is like an incubator.

------
Hoff
BizSpark is nothing particularly unusual.

Most commercial software vendors have similar programs and analogous offers
available to developers, and seemingly most featuring the "for development and
testing purposes" restrictions.

If you're operating within the particular vendor's realm and particularly
developing over a longer horizon, these programs can be reasonable.

But these programs are also sticky-traps or "free samples" leading to
addictions or vendor lock-ins or whatever analogy you'd prefer. (Which is why
they exist; duh.) Once entrenched on (Linux, Windows, Mac OS X, EC2/S3, hosted
services, whatever) porting out or switching from development to production
use can get costly.

Looking forward, consider if the end-users are even particularly going to know
or care what software is running under the hood in a few years. While it's a
now very successful model, what are the growth trends in three or five years?
Between hosting (Azure or slices or otherwise) and virtual machine guests and
embedded clients, the operating system and the bag of drivers that it provides
is becoming a component of your application, or something you (or somebody
else) runs for your customers.

Pick your bag of drivers and choose your particular software addiction(s)
appropriately. If that's BizSpark, go for it. Just don't get dazzled by the
word "FREE!" from any vendor.

------
iamelgringo
My interactions with BizSpark in Silicon Valley have been nothing short of
stellar. I organize the Hackers and Founders meetups [1] in the area, and Joel
Franusic [2], the BizSpark evangelist for the area is one of the huge reasons
that I have nothing but good things to say about BizSpark.

Joel is a Perl, *nix hacker with a dash of Lisp mixed in. He's been working
startups for years, and he helps organize Super Happy Dev House in Silicon
Valley. He joined BizSpark because he thought he could help a broad cross
section of startups.

Joel doesn't push the Microsoft stack very hard. He's very much a soft sell
kind of guy. But, if a startup is interested in working on the Microsoft
stack, he's a phenomenal resource.

ref:

[1] <http://www.hackersandfounders.com>

[2] <http://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=jf>

------
nailer
I was rejected for Bizspark. As part of a wider product, I develop an Open
Source OpenXML module for Python.

This requires testing on Office 2007 and 2010, as these apps don't implement
the OpenXML spec exactly so there are quirks.

Not sure if the rejection was because it was whether the component that
touched the MS stack was OSS, whether MS don't realize that Python runs on
Windows, whether they don't want people to use OpenXML on other platforms, or
some other reason.

Weirdly enough, I actually started in IT as a Windows NT 4 MCSE when I was 17.
I had a very different view of Microsoft then.

~~~
johns
You should contact jf <http://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=jf>

------
csomar
_Believe it or not - I disagree with this. Sort of. Microsoft _is_ almost
completely invisible in the Valley. I worked there for ... well pretty much my
entire career. That's what I do - startups - and only one of them went with
Microsoft tools. And that was back in 1997 when Active Server Pages was all
the rage._

This page (<http://www.bizspark.com/one/Pages/default.aspx>) tells me
otherwise, some hot startups are using MS bizspark. So it's not really
invisible in the valley.

~~~
robconery
That page lists a number of startups - sure. It's atomic compared to the
startups out there. I do agree - it's impressive to see some of the names on
the list and it would be nice to see it grow. All the same, you have to admit
that it's rather small.

------
Jun8
I don't care much about Bizspark but I want this guy to write the front-facing
text on my startup's web page when the time comes, he's great in summing up
the value in few, well-chosen words.

------
milhous
I've heard about BizSpark before.

But if I didn't, I would know pretty quickly that ridiculous buzzwords like
that could only come from a place like Microsoft.

