
My first ten-day Vipassana retreat - mwidell
https://micaelwidell.com/my-first-10-day-vipassana-retreat/
======
wdrw
I did a Vipassana retreat a few years ago. Definitely an incredible
experience, and I could see directly measurable positive effects on my
thinking, on how I made decisions, etc. afterwards (although the effect does
wear off after a while if you don't keep meditating regularly). However, I
feel I must mention some negatives as well. First, the course emphasizes many
times that it is purely secular, but towards the end it slides into the more
religious aspects of Buddhism (reincarnation and even some explicitly anti-
scientific ideas). I feel that this can turn off a lot of the more
analytically-minded/secular/atheist people, which is a real shame because
Vipassana still makes a lot of sense without these religious aspects.
Secondly, towards the end of the course there's real pressure in the lectures
to accept Vipassana as the "one true way" to meditate, and I got a little bit
of a cult-ish vibe from some of the returning students and especially from the
volunteers. Not to the degree that it's going to be a problem for most people,
but I can see how a small minority of "brainwash-susceptible" individuals,
especially in a vulnerable stage in life, may throw themselves 100% into
Vipassana after a retreat, instead of critically thinking about this powerful
experience afterwards. So my advice: definitely do it if you can, take it
seriously and give it your 100%, but don't turn off your critical thinking
skills during the lectures or after the retreat. If you can do it, there's
lots to gain.

~~~
shockzzz
I can't stand people who say Buddhism is not a religion. In many, many, MANY
ways Christianity is as much a philosophy as Buddhism is. People also don't
realize that Buddhism in the West is specifically catered to Westerners who
are sick of the dogma of the Abrahamic religions. Ironically, Buddhism is
filled with the same dogma, but it's hidden in the West until you buy into it.
I can't imagine it's entirely different from how Christian missionaries
approach developing countries.

Not saying that Buddhism is "bad" \- not at all. But it is in no way as
secular, or as peaceful, as Westerners think it is. It has a long and torrid
history of violence, as well as dogma.

I just wish people recognized Buddhism for what it is - a religion.

~~~
paolomaffei
(Buddhist here)

Could I see quotations about the history of violence? Buddhism has by far the
lowest score of violence of all five big religions of the world. Not to
mention that when that violence did happen (zen priests blessing kamikazes
during WW2, myanmar riots these days...) it has been condemned as explicitly
not-buddhist by the wider Buddhist world (for violence has no place in the
Buddha's thought).

As for it being a religion, well yes it is, however it is not a theistical
religion that explicitly asks you to believe in a vengeful, retributing god.

The Buddha describes how reality works (karma - from a certain action an
appropriate consequence will follow, and there's nothing fixed or permanent,
just conditions giving rise to other conditions) with the important corollary
that if you want to be happy, then do actions that are ethical because "good"
consequences will follow from those. This is what we call a "philosophy" in
western thought.

It only becomes a "religion" when one believes that one too, could be like the
Buddha, becoming something that's much higher than what one is right now. One
doesn't have to believe this bit however, one could very well follow the
Buddha's teachings (and meditation, which is an integral part of) just to
become a happier human being.

~~~
steve19
Just like many people have committed violence claiming to be Christians, so
have people committed violence claiming to be devout Buddhists.

Wikipedia has a light page on the topic.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_violence](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_violence)

Not mentioned in the above link is the Tibetan serfdom controversy.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serfdom_in_Tibet_controversy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serfdom_in_Tibet_controversy)

Regarding you second point, I am not sure I see the value of saying "Buddhism
is not a religion if you ignore the religious bits"... you might well say that
about any religion. There are plenty of secular Muslims and secular Jews for
example, but that does not make Islam or Judaism any less of a religion.

~~~
dhimes
_Regarding you second point, I am not sure I see the value of saying "Buddhism
is not a religion if you ignore the religious bits"... you might well say that
about any religion._

Key difference is, the founders and leaders of Judaism and Islam claim to have
believed in God. The Buddha did not. A lot of us identify a deity as being
core to the idea of being a religion.

That's not to say that sects haven't developed and diverged from the initial
beliefs, perhaps in order to build their own communities (or empires). But
these are later developments than the teachings set forth by Siddhartha
Gautama.

------
nether
If you're interested in Buddhist meditation but in a more laid back
environment, I highly recommend the retreats at the Thich Nhat Hanh affiliated
monasteries in the US (Deer Park in San Diego, Blue Cliff in NY). It's only a
couple hours per day of sitting, interspersed with talks, small group
discussions, and various other calm activities. Everything is basically
optional since they don't take attendance, you could sit in your room all day
if you wanted, but I found all of it rewarding. At the end they stressed that
the purpose of all this mindfulness and sitting is to increase awareness and
compassion within oneself, so that you can deepen relationships with everyone,
Buddhist or not. The days usually started at 5:30 but they warned us not to
try to recreate this schedule at home, "because it would just cause
suffering." So they're totally not humorless ascetics.

They also served some amazing vegan food.

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RikNieu
I'd love to run a retreat center like this. I'd augment it with a
scientifically-backed nutritional plan, have floatation tanks available, and
spend a bit more time helping visitors make sense of what they're experiencing
and how to proceed.

And definitely, definitely manage expectations better than most of these
places. Most of the cultish vibes and/or disappointments that can emerge from
these kind of retreats are because people are prone to hyperbole when they
spend some time on activities so completely out of their frame of reference.

~~~
beagle3
> a scientifically-backed nutritional plan,

That would be refreshing, because almost none are. What did you have in mind?

~~~
puredemo
Nothing but Soylent drinks and Slow-cooked BBQ

~~~
kweinber
... and beano.

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kriro
I've heard about this before and the people were usually happy. However it
sounded pretty culty from descriptions. Trying to convince people that your
way is the only way sounds like you don't understand Buddhism at all (I don't
understand it either just on a very superficial level).

I also hear quite a few "I felt more productive, less stressed out" etc.
remarks. I wonder if 10 days of relaxing on a beach wouldn't have a similar
effect. Has anyone done scientific studies on this? I remember a study on
meditation being positively correlated to learning but am not sure if I
remember correctly.

~~~
mvanvoorden
It's definitely not the same as relaxing on a beach for 10 days. Not even
closely similar. Yes, you might be more relaxed, but this meditation is hard
work and really disciplines your mind, something you won't be doing on a
beach. As far as you are even aware of how active the mind is all day long,
the beach will be full of distractions and you would take any opportunity to
avoid any uncomfortable situations as well as take any opportunity to do
things that give you short, momentary pleasures.

I noticed the culty part about it as well, but it makes sense to me, because
it really works. The claim they make is really met and this convinces a lot of
people that everybody should at least once in their life do such a retreat,
including myself.

There is the Vipassana Research Institute, but their website disappoints me a
bit, because the amount of links that is actual research is quite meagre.
There are some good results with Vipassana in prisons, though. See
[http://www.vridhamma.org/Home.aspx](http://www.vridhamma.org/Home.aspx)

------
sridca
I did three retreats, and my experience is that Vipassana -- and meditation
practices in general -- induces extreme forms of dissociation, and as such not
a reliable to way to deal with emotions in the real world.

~~~
poelzi
I did 14 over the last 13 years and dissociation in a bad way is something
this technique does not, not in a bad way. There are different forms of
dissociation: one where your body becomes alien, there is one, where your ego
is not associated with the feelings, etc...

There is a dissociational element in vipassana, but it is that your ego does
not associate pain with suffering or fine sensations with lust.

What I experienced in me and I see it in others as well, is that they deal
with the real world much intensified. Of course, you distance yourself in the
retreat, but this is for self improvement, as sometimes you need a time out to
really look deep inside, calm your mind so it is sensitive enough.

~~~
sridca
Essentially you are saying the same thing as me.

A Vipassana meditator dissociates from their emotions while identifying with
the physical sensations (whereas what is generally called as the ego/soul/self
is, at core, the emotions themselves). Retreats acutely develop this process,
but the effects are felt throughout one's daily life.

Your saying "the real world much intensified" is the effect of this process of
identifying with the physical sensations (hence "intensified") while tacitly
dissociating from the associated emotions.

While dissociation is one way to cope with emotions, it is not a reliable to
way to deal with them in the real world.

~~~
alimw
You seem to be saying that meditation is not a reliable way to hang on to your
ego. That should go without saying.

~~~
mvanvoorden
Needless to say, his ego is scared shitless about that.

~~~
sridca
I just read your recent comments which indicates that you are a fan of the
Vipassana method.

Do you realize that Vipassana as practiced in the West is not so much about
elimination of ego as distancing (hence dissociation) the said ego from the
soul (the seat of emotions)?

As the emotions are still in place, when push comes to shove the distanced ego
will rear its ugly head again and again (hence unreliable).

There is more to the human condition than the ego, and this is what Satya
Narayan Goenka doesn't get. He is essentially promoting an extreme form of
everyday psychological dissociation.

~~~
alimw
Is this your own insight or do you have references? It's a little hard for me
to make sense of your position based only on what you've written here.

~~~
sridca
This is based on my experience. As for references, start from here:
[http://actualfreedom.com.au/sundry/frequentquestions/FAQ33a....](http://actualfreedom.com.au/sundry/frequentquestions/FAQ33a.htm)

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ilostmykeys
Hmm. I wonder what kind of person I'd be if I had the privelege and luxury to
be by myself without having to talk to anyone or be a slave to mt phone, for
ten damn days. Imagine!

I want to go to there!

~~~
jmspring
I went to a retreat at Tassajara Zen Center recently. If I didn't have
obligations (wife, house, bills), spending time in a place meditating and
focusing inward would be a wonderful experience.

In this case they are more a Japanese style of Zen Buddhism... Quite stark and
austere.

~~~
endlessvoid94
I would love to know more about the retreat you did, if you'd be willing to
share. That seems a lot more accessible to me, since I'm in the bay area.

~~~
jmspring
See reply below for what I did.

There are formal retreats during the late spring to early fall. There is a
retreat fee and different sorts of lodging prices (from shared dorms to
private cabins on the creek).

Some people just go to work and stay there at a reduced to minimal cost
(typical work could be anything from landscaping to the kitchen to helping
clean cabins). This sort of approach one stays in one of the dorms.

What was surprising to me is the number of people there. Monks/students
probably between 80 and 100 with guests in the same range.

Tassajara Zen Center website has more details I believe. There are two other
properties as well (in SF and in Marin County).

[http://sfzc.org](http://sfzc.org)

~~~
endlessvoid94
thanks!

------
codeshaman
I did it 10 years ago. I left on day 7. Overall, I'd say the experience was
very interesting and unique.

When I managed to sit in the same position for an hour - I was ecstatic. I was
also sweating profoundly and the pain was unbearable, yet I managed to just
examine it, feel it, accept it.

I also remember having nightmares involving the meditation center - I clearly
remember dreaming that building burning with huge flames and I was happy about
it. It was a very vivid, colorful dream. My mind wanted to escape.

But then the most difficult part came. My wife was also in the group and we
started being sexually attracted to each other starting with day 5 or so. The
inability to speak and even look at each other added to the sparks of desire
that have been growing for 5 days of meditation, silence and abstinence.

By day 7 the attraction became electric - just a glimpse of her eyes revealed
that she was feeling the same way - we were both fighting the sexual force ...
Dreams became sexual...

We both fought the desire, but eventually we lost the battle - we ran away and
had sex.

Although nobody has seen us, we felt like we cheated and we couldn't continue
the course.

So we told the teacher that we can't stay anymore and she mentioned that
usually they try to avoid married couples in the same course because of the
sexual thing.

Another reason for bailing on day 7 was the feeling that I was being
brainwashed into accepting this new religion/sect/whatever. The helpers
definitely behaved very cultish and I didn't want to become like them - I had
a startup to run. So my mind had this powerful argument - "we're being
brainwashed, we have to escape".

Anyway, overall it was interesting, even though I haven't achieved whatever I
had to achieve on day 10, I think I learned a great deal of lessons about
myself, about weakness, desire, love, etc.

If you have 10 days, go do it.

------
shobhitverma
This November was my sixth 10 day Vipassana course (first was 12 years ago). I
achieved momentary clarity on the 8th day which helped me get rid of some of
unnecessary but deep rooted complexes of my mind. I believe that it was
possible only because of the continued practice and focus of the past 7 days.
If it were two courses of 4 days each with some gap in between, I do not think
I would be able to experience what I did. In other words, I feel that my brain
needed the 10 consecutive days.

~~~
pc86
> _I achieved momentary clarity on the 8th day which helped me get rid of some
> of unnecessary but deep rooted complexes of my mind._

Can someone with experience in meditation explain what this actually means?

~~~
patrickmay
For me it means that I was able to look objectively at some of my ways of
thinking and feeling and realize that I didn't have to do it that way. I was
able to let go of the attachment to doing so and change my own reaction to
things.

In the tradition I follow this is called "finding the listener".

------
iss
Respect! This has been on my bucket list for a while, but I haven't still
found the courage to do it!

------
semerda
Nice write up! Thanks for sharing. I attended a similar retreat in Australia
and it's definitely a nice way to decompress and reflect.

However trying to bring it into everyday habit/life is a lot harder. In the
end I found that isolation tanks/floatation filled that need perfectly. My
write up here: [http://www.theroadtosiliconvalley.com/local-
california/float...](http://www.theroadtosiliconvalley.com/local-
california/floatation-tank-isolation-tanks/) Have you tried floatation?

------
seren
I find the experience interesting. However, I can't to help to think that a 10
days Vipassana session is kind of extreme, from checking your smartphone 100
times an hour to not speaking to anyone for 10 days.

There are probably milder ways to experience better mindfulness and focus. And
then somehow, I understand that in our daily lives it might be easier to
commit to 10 days than having the fortitude to leave social media for a day.

I also feel it tells something about our time when we want to have full and
unadulterated experiences.

~~~
kup0
It's possible that experiencing the extreme makes the "milder ways" much
easier to make a habit.

When you've just meditated for 11 hours a day for 10 days straight, 30 minutes
a day seems like nothing.

I think the retreats are often just a way to gain perspective or a "crash
course" that you can then apply to your life once you leave.

~~~
mbrock
FWIW, I've talked to plenty of people for whom this has been far from the
case. They went to a 10 day retreat, some of them had blissful times or
fascinating out-of-body experiences or whatever, but most of these people
haven't ended up with a stable daily meditation practice. So right now I'm
pretty skeptical about this hypothesis.

~~~
nzp
I don't know what you (they) meant by "blissful times", but "fascinating out-
of-body" experiences doesn't sound right. It could be that they experienced
something close to Jhana[0] but I'm skeptical it can be done on a 10 day
Vipassana retreat with no previous experience. In all Buddhist traditions,
excepting Tantric ones, that emphasize meditation, the techniques (Vipassana
being one of them) are mostly really hard work in practicing concentration and
attentiveness. It's very hard to get it right, essentially to practice hard
without practicing hard, without attaching yourself even to the effort you're
expanding, which then can lead to Jhanas. Most of the time, I think, people
convince themselves they are experiencing fascinating things, but it's just
the mind playing it's tricks. Especially in the West where people attach all
sorts of wacky stuff to the term "meditation", which really isn't event the
right translation of "samadhi" as it's borrowed from Christianity where
"contemplation" is much better fitting as a Western analogue (other techniques
from Tantric Buddhism, on the other hand fit the Western term "meditation"
better).

[0]
[http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma...](http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-
samadhi/jhana.html)

------
aforty
I have done several now and would highly recommend them to anyone who has the
time (let's face it, ten days off is not exactly easy for some).

My first experience is documented here: [https://medium.com/mindfulness-and-
meditation/into-the-subco...](https://medium.com/mindfulness-and-
meditation/into-the-subconscious-301bacb505ff)

------
dorianm
Great summary of his experience.

While travelling I met several people who went to meditation retreats and they
seemed to all have the insight of stopping to check their phone so often, or
even stop having a smartphone.

Also, because of that it's unlikely many of them read Hacker News or Medium so
there is a selection biais as to who is talking about those meditation
retreats.

------
rahoulb
> Emotions and addictions start small, and get stronger as we feed them by
> reacting to them. If you want to stop a destructive emotion or an addiction,
> learn to notice it early and stay completely equanimous to it.

I've just been doing a bit of reading on NLP and, underneath the jargon, one
of the key ideas seems to be that emotional states have a physical location in
your body - and if you can locate it then you can start to enhance or
attenuate the emotion.

This sounds pretty similar, although approaching it from a different
direction.

~~~
mwidell
Author here. This is very interesting, as it sounds very similar to how it was
explained at the Vipassana camp. What is a good starting point to familiarise
oneself with NLP?

~~~
junto
A word of warning about NLP. Practitioners can be somewhat cultish. NLP is
really about learning techniques to get people to do what you want then to do.
Once they realise that you are doing that to them, they start to hate you for
it.

Once you have practised it for some time, you start to forget that you are
doing it. Before long people hate you and you don't even know why.

Imagine being able to hypnotise people using words to get them to do things
that they might not really want to do. That's NLP. It's not sold like that
though. It's sold as a way to empower yourself. Unfortunately, it is on other
people's behalves.

------
mheiler
A while ago I did a Contemplation course where you do sitting & walking
meditation for ~9h / day. The experience was very similar. It's fascinating
when you look into spiritual practices of different religions: There is so
much in common. E.g., when you read from Buddhist teachers vs. Catholic saints
vs. modern mindfulness meditation. I strongly recommend to pick up one of
these and experience them.

------
colinmegill
I've done a 10 day - well worth it.

------
derptacious
A big thread with opinions about vipassana without the word samadhi... x_X

------
pajop
minor erratum: "The effects of meditation and solitute" should be "The effects
of meditation and solitude" :)

~~~
mwidell
Author here. Thanks, fixed now!

~~~
njacooper
Also: "I was shaking. My arms where shaking." should be " I was shaking. My
arms were shaking."

Great article though!

------
kevin_thibedeau
I'm really getting tired of "st" ligatures in sans-serif fonts. Who came up
with this horrible idea?

------
dschiptsov
The Buddha went to a solitude retreat to conquer and master his "mind", not to
some for profit "meditation center". Solitude is what is required for deep
introspection and realizations which lead to permanent transformations in the
environmentaly and socially conditioned "model of the universe" each person is
used to build and maintain through lifetime.

BTW, what makes you being so sure that all the readers of HN required to
become aware of your narcissistic tendencies - you made a username to post a
link to your personal site with a description of how special you believe you
are?

~~~
elbear
What is your comment aggressive towards the OP? He presented his experience
for anyone who might be interested. No one is being required to become aware
of the OP's story.

~~~
dschiptsov
Should everyone post their experience here?

~~~
kaybe
If they write interesting posts, which, after submitting, interest enough
people, why not? That's why we have the voting system, so the interesting
things are filtered. But, you know, the vast majority of people won't, making
it even less of an issue.

~~~
dschiptsov
Probably I am biased by seeing way to many of this "narcissistic spiritualism"
which is nothing but another way of boosting the ego, while one of the
cornerstones of Buddhism is to get rid of notions of "I", "soul" and "mine"
or, at least, to diminish them to the point of language idioms, given that it
is known since Upanishads, that there is no "I" or "myself" apart of a
environmental and social conditioning, plus conditioning by personal
experiences, related to your social niche (a cast). That's why this is an
issue for me.

~~~
elbear
I didn't see it as "narcissistic spiritualism". Rather, I saw it as a method
of promoting meditation and this sort of practices in this community.

In any case, if someone is shows narcissistic behavior, don't you think there
are better ways to point that out to them? Compassion might work better than
resentment.

