

This year, I will wear a poppy for the last time - Tzunamitom
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/08/poppy-last-time-remembrance-harry-leslie-smith

======
peteretep

      I will no longer allow my obligation as a veteran to
      remember those who died in the great wars to be co-opted
      by current or former politicians to justify our folly in
      Iraq, our morally dubious war on terror and our
      elimination of one's right to privacy.
    

The idea that poppies, Remembrance Day, and general military pageant used to
be some kind of non-propaganda event that's recently been co-opted is fantasy.
Military nations have been instilling their young men with the glory of war
since forever. Circa 23BC we have Horace saying "It's sweet and right to die
for your country"[1], then parodied by Wilfred Owen[2] from his experiences in
the "Great" war.

This feels a great deal like "we used to fight just wars, and recent wars
aren't just", which is so misguided[3], I don't even know where to begin. The
whole thing feels like "my war was better than your war".

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dulce_et_decorum_est_pro_patria...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dulce_et_decorum_est_pro_patria_mori)
[2]
[http://www.warpoetry.co.uk/owen1.html](http://www.warpoetry.co.uk/owen1.html)
[3]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Empire](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Empire)

------
jevinskie
Wow, 90 years old and sharp as a tack! It is remarkable what past lessons we
can learn from our elders. Hopefully the younger generations can avoid making
the same mistakes.

~~~
alan_cx
Mistakes? For who?

Sure, from a general population "pleb" POV, yes, mistakes. Plebs die, get
tortured, imprisoned with out due process, and so on. But for those making
these mistakes? Do they lose out? Or do they gain? Recently, Bush had his two
terms. Obama has his two terms. Even the "plebs" didn't punish them. I take is
Bush, family, and friends are doing fine right now, and I bet Obama doesn't
fare too badly either after he's done. I take it that all their political and
business friends are and will do fine too.

Im struggling to see the mistake from the POV of the powers that be.

Not just wart and so on, look at the banking collapse. Same thing. Same with
any disaster that hits the mass population.

Right now, dont I see a younger generation making any head way in to politics
based on any historical knowledge of the past mistakes. No. What I see right
now is so much weight of imposed responsibility loaded on them that they
simple cant. And, in the case of the UK, when students take to the streets in
protest the authorities treat them like rioters and abuse them, legally. And
that's leaving out the people who think such protesters should face the
military on the streets. See, protesting causes poor business people to lose
money, some how. Disruption costs. And that is apparently really, really
important.

All we ever get is scraps thrown at us in the sure knowledge that most people
dont want to make any real effort and are happy to accept any thing that they
can cling to that means they can say the government did something and they can
get on with their loaded stressful lives. But over all, it'll just be the same
old, same old.

Mean while, most are missing a fundamental ruling class mentality that exists
in both the US and UK, and probably many, many other "democracies". Namely
that they can and will do what ever they like until caught out. And when they
are caught out, they face little consequence of any worth, let alone
consequence that ensures nobody after them do it again. Oh, and of course they
blame the people who expose them, rather than take responsibility for their
own actions.

We can muck around all we like, but until the people in power face real
consequence, nothing fundamental will chance.

Sad truth is, "we" accept it.

------
JamesZaya
Truer words have never been spoken. I wish those who send the "Tommies" of
today, realize what war is like. They do not call it the Ultimate sacrifice
for nothing. Let us make sure that sacrifice was not for trivial and hollow
matters.

But whilst we remember, let us not forget our returning veterans need help,
both financial, medical and with integrating back into the norms of civilian
life after two brutal conflicts.

I believe Wilfred Owen summed it up best, with his poem Dulce et Decorum
[http://www.warpoetry.co.uk/owen1.html](http://www.warpoetry.co.uk/owen1.html)

------
Tycho
The topic that's sort of ignored is how incredibly wrong it was to impose
conscription on the British public. A lot of people still see no problem with
making people 'serve their country,' even with the horrific example of WW1.

------
_Simon
I personally find this deeply offensive. This polemic is featured in the
Guardian practically every year and its just more of the same sanctimonious
bullshit we're becoming accustomed to from them. There is a lot of good
feeling toward the guardian here because of their involvement with the Snowden
affair, but I'd warn you all to treat them with the cynicism that you treat
any other news agency with. This individual, who by all means is entitled to
his view, is no better than the politicians he is complaining about by further
politicising d deliberately misrepresenting what the appeal represents. That
he served in the WWII is merely an example of an appeal to authority fallacy.
The Poppy Appeal is a charitable fund that is operated by the Royal British
Legion (see
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Royal_British_Legion](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Royal_British_Legion))
and exists to help veterans and the dependants of service men and women that
are injured or killed in action. Wear a poppy is showing support for those
affected, not existing troops nor the wars that they fight in. It isn't
showing any kind of agreement with any kind of foreign policy. Conflating the
two is disingenuous to say the least and does nothing other than harming
families that care for or have lost members to military action.

EDIT: Not wearing a poppy is an individuals right in the UK. It's a right that
I absolutely stand by. I have no issue with anyone choosing not to partake in
the act of remembrance. I take issue with it being misrepresented by _both_
sides of the political spectrum. The irony of course is that the people who
they are choosing not to remember gave their life for that right.

~~~
smackay
The history is more complex than a few paragraphs can convey. For instance,
The Royal British Legion was founded by Field Marshal Douglas Haig, commander
of British Expeditionary Forces and commander at the Battle of the Somme where
over one million men were killed or injured. As a result there have been
periods of controversy over Remembrance Day given the role that governments
and the ruling elites play in formenting conflicts while the bulk of the cost
and consequences is carried by the lower classes. It has certainly nothing to
do with the political spectrum. The UK's recent foray into Iraq was brought to
you by Prime Minister Tony Blair (Labour).

The controversy has parallels with the debate about the Vietnam War in the
United States.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Haig,_1st_Earl_Haig](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Haig,_1st_Earl_Haig)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Somme_%281916%29](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Somme_%281916%29)

UPDATE: The comedy series, Blackadder Goes Fourth, written by Richard Curtis
and Ben Elton covers the subject rather well,
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackadder_Goes_Forth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackadder_Goes_Forth)

~~~
sbuk
Haig was _a_ founder of the RBL. In fact the OP linked to a wiki entry about
the RBL, which spells out the RBLs formation. The whole point of remembrance
is to recognise "the bulk of the cost and consequences" that is carried by
_all_ classes who are maimed or killed in combat. War isn't selective about
your background and weapons maim and kill indiscriminately. Are you suggesting
that because Haig was a founder, we should offer less credence to the RBL for
the subsequent work that they do?

I believe the OP was referring to the politicising of the act of remembrance
for political gain. Mr Smith has politicised this by writing an inflammatory
piece bemoaning the current wars, which as you rightly point out were brought
forward by Blair and the (Guardian supported) Labour Party. As a result, Smith
is asking us to besmirch the act of remembrance of soldiers who have fought in
these conflicts. Why? Because we don't agree with the wars? That seems rather
churlish to me. I don't agree with either of the conflicts that the US has
started and that Blair blindly followed, but it won't stop me remembering the
combatants whose lives have lost or irrecoverably changed. If anything the act
of buying a poppy is reminding us just how vile war is an how we should all
stand against the politicians and corporations that lobby for it. The poppy
should be a symbol of peace, albeit a sombre reminder of what it can cost.

------
CamperBob2

       Come 2014 when the government marks the beginning of the 
       first world war with quotes from Rupert Brooke, Rudyard 
       Kipling and other great jingoists from our past empire, I 
       will declare myself a conscientious objector. 
    

What's "jingoistic" about Rudyard Kipling? How is this guy's perspective any
different from the sentiments expressed in 'Tommy'
([http://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/kipling/tommy.html](http://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/kipling/tommy.html))?

~~~
acqq
It's that Kipling, according to many people, even in that times, effectively
did imperialistic propaganda, even if he was aware that the reality didn't
match the myth, didn't match in a sense which the article author wants to
point out also concerning the WW I.

[http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/kipling/rkimperialism.ht...](http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/kipling/rkimperialism.html)

[http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5478/](http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5478/)

Thanks for the "Tommy" poem, it also shows something important.

~~~
_Simon
It's worth pointing out that Kiplin lost his only son, Jack, to the Great War.

------
chimeracoder
For those who don't know the context of the reference to the poppy, it's from
the poem "In Flanders Fields"

>In Flanders fields the poppies blow

> Between the crosses, row on row,

> That mark our place; and in the sky

> The larks, still bravely singing, fly

> Scarce heard amid the guns below.

> We are the Dead. Short days ago

> We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,

> Loved and were loved, and now we lie

> In Flanders fields.

> Take up our quarrel with the foe:

> To you from failing hands we throw

> The torch; be yours to hold it high.

> If ye break faith with us who die

> We shall not sleep, though poppies grow

> In Flanders fields.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Flanders_Fields](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Flanders_Fields)

~~~
opminion
And for those still left clueless: in Britain, around this time of the year,
it is common to see people wear a "remembrance poppy" pin, to commemorate
soldiers who have died in war.

One way of getting it is by donation to the British Legion.

As with most symbols with time, its meaning now also very much depends on the
observer (nostalgic-imperialistic, pro-war, gratitude, sacrifice, etc).

~~~
Spearchucker
_...to commemorate soldiers who have died in war..._

It's to commemorate _British_ soldiers. And therein lies my problem. It
implies that British soldiers are worth commemorating, and any others
(Russian, German, Austrian, South African, you name it, it was a world war
after all) not.

It's like visiting the holocaust museum in Jerusalem. Everywhere you turn you
hear how the museum is there to make sure it doesn't happen again _to
Israelis_.

9/11 is another fine anti-example. You only hear about that one _every year_
because it's American.

Meanwhile Rwanda happens, and Burma, Kosovo, and Iraq, and Afghanistan, and so
on. Nationalism gnaws at my arse. Badly.

~~~
chr15p
I'm currently watching the commemorations from London live on BBC1, and the
ambassadors from the various countries of the ex-British empire countries
(including Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, South Africa, various
Caribbean countries etc) are laying wreaths of poppies at the Cenotaph (the
war memorial in the centre of london).

In order of precedence they lay their wreaths after the royals and the heads
of the UK political parties, but before the heads of the UK armed forces.

I've seen Polish, Irish, and Dutch ex-soldiers today and probably other
nations march in the past as well. Oh and the Gurkhas obviously (who are
Nepalese, but part of the British Army).

So not only _British_ soldiers get commemorated, maybe many people only
remember the soldiers of their own country but that certainly doesn't lead to
the conclusion that others aren't worth commemorating, only that people think
of things that are close to home first.

------
Joeboy
In the past, the real deal-breaker for me has been the involvement of massive
arms manufacturer British Aerospace. Not sure if that's still going on.

------
sbuk
The motto of the Royal British Legion is _Service not Self_. Perhaps Mr Smith
would be well served in remembering this.

