
Microsoft Surface Laptops and Tablets Not Recommended by Consumer Reports - mnm1
https://www.consumerreports.org/laptop-computers/microsoft-surface-laptops-and-tablets-not-recommended-by-consumer-reports/
======
eksemplar
I'm a long time Microsoft user, sure I dabbled with Linux in my youth, but I
never quite got into the tinkering culture and having to spend a day per month
in configuring to make things work the way I wanted just wasn't me.

Professionaly I'm now in management but the majority of my development
experience had been with .Net. Sure I dabbled with all the open source hyped
techs when I was younger, but ultimately settled for .Net and enterprise
(which I'm happy is also open sourced now by the way, even if .net core isn't
really production ready and takes up way too much devops time to deploy).

These days windows just feels wrong though. It's probably just me but I feel
like my windows machines are basically iPads with keyboards that I can't
really do anything with the way I want to.

Git sucks on windows, paints replacement sucks, almost anything that isn't
.Net development sucks and Visual Studio has to live in a cage or it takes
over everything from wanting to debug your steam library to howling at the
moon.

And now you're telling me the life expediency of a surface is 2 years. Heh.

~~~
sjellis
"These days windows just feels wrong though. It's probably just me but I feel
like my windows machines are basically iPads with keyboards that I can't
really do anything with the way I want to.

Git sucks on windows, paints replacement sucks, almost anything that isn't
.Net development sucks and Visual Studio has to live in a cage or it takes
over everything from wanting to debug your steam library to howling at the
moon."

You are being far too polite :) It is not you: Windows is fine as a launcher
for consumer applications, but for _setup_ of development tools, it is
appallingly terrible, and outside .NET the user experience with developer
tools can be pretty rough. For many things, it is now a third-class platform
(Mac is first, then Linux).

I definitely agree with Git, specifically. This isn't Microsoft's fault: Git
is so UNIX-y that you have to wrap it in a kind of miny-UNIX distribution to
run it on a non-UNIX platform, but they are the only desktop vendor with a
non-UNIX platform.

I am looking forward to having an opportunity to work with WSL, to see how
much that helps.

~~~
Garvey
What are your issues with git on Windows?

Not sure why you feel Windows is "appallingly terrible" for set up of
development tools either? Care to expand on why this is the case?

Genuinely curious, if only becasue I don't have these problems...

~~~
jbob2000
Git isn't the problem, per se. It's a barebones tool that, on Unix systems,
gets paired with a very powerful terminal. The command prompt on Windows is
useless garbage by comparison. You pretty much need to use a GUI with Git on
windows because command prompt is so bad.

Aside from that, window management is awful on Windows (ironic?). Alt tab is
kinda stupid, you can't scroll windows behind the active window, the taskbar
and start menu are generally a mess, and god help you if you have multiple
monitors.

~~~
hungerstrike
Why would you want to use archaic CLI commands instead of a modern GUI though?
In my 8 or so years of using GIT on Windows, there's nothing that I couldn't
do through my preferred GUI.

Anyway, window management is great on Windows. It's definitely more robust
than the Mac OS and more stable than whatever minority Linux desktop you're
using. And alt tab is definitely not stupid and if it were, it would certainly
not be because of some lack of scrolling because nobody wants to scroll stuff
while they're alt tabbing.

Also, the start screen is better than anything and not messy at all. I can't
even organize the equivalent on my Mac the way that I want to. Windows
handling of multiple monitors is better than any other OS too and way more
stable.

~~~
jbob2000
>Why would you want to use archaic CLI commands instead of a modern GUI
though?

Because on Unix systems, the CLI commands are not archaic and you can move way
faster than a GUI using them.

> window management is great on Windows. It's definitely more robust than the
> Mac OS and more stable than whatever minority Linux desktop you're using

I'm comparing it to Mac. The gestures a mac laptop provides make window
management very smooth. The keyboard shortcuts and mouse movements required to
replicate this on Windows aren't the same. MacOS remembers my multi-monitor
window placement, yet every time I unplug and re-plug in my windows laptop
from my monitors, I have to drag all the windows back to their monitors.

>Also, the start screen is better than anything and not messy at all. I can't
even organize the equivalent on my Mac the way that I want to

It's a jumbled mess of colours and rectangles. The old school start menu is
just as bad - nesting folders upon folders, hunting pixels so you click the
right spot. It's just an old school way to manage computing that many people
are used to and therefore think is better.

~~~
hungerstrike
> Because on Unix systems, the CLI commands are not archaic and you can move
> way faster than a GUI using them.

I use the keyboard to operate the Windows GUI though and Windows is definitely
known for having better accessibility hooks than any other system. I am
confident that I can operate my GUIs faster than a CLI user for a broad range
of tasks. It's certainly faster than looking up commands.

> I'm comparing it to Mac.

Well I use Macs too. I think the touchpad is extremely overrated since you
have to take your hands off the keyboard to use it. I'd rather operate the
entire system with my keyboard, something that Macs don't let you do as easily
as Windows where knowing a few simple principles let you do everything. I have
a Mac Pro besides my Macbook Pro and I'd have to buy a separate trackpad to
operate that and where would I put it? That's annoying.

Speaking of multiple monitors, I don't think even Sierra lets you soft-disable
monitors yet. Windows has had this since forever. It's so annoying that I have
to physically unplug my Mac from the monitor or else I can't use the monitors
built-in KVM to share it with other computers because the Mac will still think
the monitor is there and open windows on it. I won't buy a third party program
for it either (for reasons).

> It's a jumbled mess of colours and rectangles.

No, it's not. Knolling [1,2] is a well known process for arranging objects and
that's what the start screen/menu lets you do. (I use the full screen).

It's way better than Apple's launchpad that you can't even organize the way
you want. It's launchpad and spotlight all in one.

Anyway, it just sounds like we have different problems - I don't plug either
of my laptops into external monitors (unless mirroring on a projector), so I
don't have your problem. You don't have my problem because you probably don't
have a Mac desktop that you'd like to share monitors with your PCs. I could
talk for hours about all of my problems an every OS. None of them are perfect
and it really comes down to "what do you need it to do for you easily most of
the time and can it do that without a problem?"

[1] -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knolling](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knolling)
[2] -
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-CTkbHnpNQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-CTkbHnpNQ)

------
jackvalentine
Yeah... this is a concern.

I bought a Surface book this year, and it embarrassingly cost $4000. It's
great, but I'm convinced that in two years I'll be having a stern conversation
with Microsoft support about the Australian Consumer Law guarantee of
acceptable quality.

~~~
animex
[https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-
guarantees...](https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-
guarantees/consumer-guarantees)

How is this enforced? If you have a file a lawsuit, the costs/time/effort
might not be worth it.

~~~
throw_throw
The ACCC handles complaints on behalf of consumers, and is more than happy to
fine or litigate [1]. Most companies comply well before this stage.

1: [https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/accc-takes-action-
agai...](https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/accc-takes-action-against-
apple-over-alleged-misleading-consumer-guarantee-representations)

~~~
fulafel
Same in many European countries, there's a consumer ombudsman who can have a
stern conversation with the dealer if they think the law is on your side.

------
delhanty
Also, support is limited to the country that you purchased the device in - see
comment by `nailer from 79 days ago HN [0].

[0]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14400873](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14400873)

------
ToFundorNot
I'm still running the original Surface Pro, unfortunately the magnetized grid
for the pen died about two years ago leaving only touch or touch pad.

Besides that, it's going strong four years later.

------
senectus1
My company has well over 1000 "surface" devices (Pro's, Books, Screens) and
they do ok....

They are not even slightly repairable.. so warranty is just a straight swap
out.

I have had a Surface-book ($3k i7 Performance base model) for the last month
or so... the only complaint I have is that that the bluetooth in it is
pathetic. A set of headphones and a mouse connected and I get disconnections
and drop outs and slow mouse behaviour constantly.

It is exquisitely engineered... I just love using it.

~~~
honestoHeminway
There are troubles with WLAN and paralle used USB though.

------
throw_throw
Quite a contrast: [https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/4/15961740/best-laptop-
micro...](https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/4/15961740/best-laptop-microsoft-
windows-apple-macbook-hp-dell-lenovo)

------
8note
My SP3 was bent by the dock until the screen broke

Left one day with it docked, came back to a broken screen

------
pedalpete
I've got a surface 2 and a surface 3. I had to stop using the surface 3 at
around the 2 year mark as the fan was constantly on and I was noticing a lot
of 'strange behaviour' even after a rebuild. Surface 2 is still going strong.

------
FLGMwt
Anecdotally, my almost four-year old Surface Pro 2 is still a perfect dev
machine.

~~~
pawadu
Everyone seem to love Surface Pro 2. I wish I had bought one when it was
announced.

