
Paranoia will destroy us: Why Huawei and other Chinese tech is not spying - edwinjm
https://www.zdnet.com/article/paranoia-will-destroy-you-why-chinese-tech-isnt-spying-on-us/
======
RobertRoberts
I view this kind of caution against foreign powers (corporations are not
separate from their governments in time of war) in the same way that the 2nd
amendment protects us against tyranny.

And seatbelts from flying through wind shields.

You don't need it until you need it, and if you don't have it, it's too late.

National infrastructure that needs to work in a time of war must be nationally
controlled by all nations.

"Spying" is a straw man argument, it's not about spying.

~~~
inflatableDodo
I think the UK appears to have taken the pragmatic descision since Thatcher,
that in anything serious these days it is either overrun or obliterated, so
might as well buy the cheap stuff from our strategic rivals that will break
down in an apocalypse and we can make some quick cash in the mean time selling
off all the national technical base.

edit - Has been going on since long before Thatcher, to be fair. There's an
old documentary about this subject by Spike Milligan, called 'The Bed Sitting
Room' \-
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de0w8tU0j1U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de0w8tU0j1U)

~~~
alimw
Not sure what sense to make of this:

that in anything serious these days (World War III?) it is either overrun or
obliterated ( _would be_ either overrun or obliterated?)

I tried clicking on your link to help me understand but it's to an hour-and-a-
half long film (and not, I think, a documentary...)

~~~
inflatableDodo
>that in anything serious these days (World War III?) it is either overrun or
obliterated (would be either overrun or obliterated?)

yes

>I tried clicking on your link to help me understand but it's to an hour-and-
a-half long film (and not, I think, a documentary...)

Prophetic satire then. Watch it anyway, you owe it to Spike Milligan.

------
coconut_crab
Maybe not yet, but it surely gives them the capability to spy later on.

My country, Vietnam, also banned Huawei equipment[1], and I don't believe it's
pure paranoia. China has been taking every chances to spy on us, from
illegally buy houses near Da Nang airport[2] (nearest airbase to Paracels) to
'tourists' walking near the Ministry of Defence to Advanced Persistent Threat
targeting petroleum or maritime corporation (forgot the link right now).

We just don't trust China, and there're numerous reasons for that. This may
sound racist but the stereotype of Chinese in Vietnam is extremely cunning,
for better or worse, they will do everything to get to their goals as long as
they don't get found out. China has 5000 years of history, they always play
the long game.

Some quotations from "The Art of War" 2500 years ago:

"Be subtle! be subtle! and use your spies for every kind of business"

" The enemy's spies who have come to spy on us must be sought out, tempted
with bribes, led away and comfortably housed. Thus they will become converted
spies and available for our service. "

[1] [https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/05/09/vietnam-doesnt-trust-
hu...](https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/05/09/vietnam-doesnt-trust-huawei-an-
inch/)

[2] [https://tuoitrenews.vn/society/32340/da-nang-suspects-
more-l...](https://tuoitrenews.vn/society/32340/da-nang-suspects-more-land-
illegally-bought-by-chinese)

~~~
dna_polymerase
The alternative is relying on US tech. While I get the point that Huawei
_could_ be spying on us later on, the US is the one nation we _know_ is spying
on us.

All tech we use these days can be used for spying. The whole Huawei craze is
just the U.S. realizing that they are no longer the only power to fear.

~~~
crystaln
The US spying is subject to a strained but ultimately effective legal and
constitutional system. There is no comparison between the US government's
transgressions, and the Chinese government's complete unrestricted impunity to
spy and infiltrate.

~~~
dna_polymerase
The spying is done by intelligence services. Services that have huge
reputational problems, largely because they have nothing to fear and all the
power. Whatever is going on inside those organizations is completely hidden
from the government itself. What Snowden made available has shocked everyone,
including those who should oversee the intelligence services.

~~~
crystaln
It is still subject to legal constraints, and when exposed there is at least
the possibility of consequences and changes. In China it is entirely legal,
tolerated, and expected. In China the intrusions can entirely unsubtle and
deep, whereas in the US there is at least some balance with legal restraints.
These are very different situations. Neither of them are ideal, however
equating them is really not accurate.

------
deugtniet
One point that I'm missing, is that the government of China can legally force
any of their companies to start spying. And there would be no way that we
would know.

Then often the argument becomes: But the US are already spying on us, so it's
not too bad. Which is fair, but in the US, there are checks and balances and
freedoms so that somebody has recourse. All these things are absent in China.

So the question is one of trust. Who do you trust more when they are spying on
you: The US or China? For me as a European, this is definitely the former.

~~~
llamaz
"there are checks and balances and freedoms"

you are so full of child like innocence, I envy you

~~~
tonyedgecombe
There is no need to be so condescending.

~~~
onlydeadheroes
That was the kindest way of saying it.

------
RobertoG
It surprise me that people take those allegations seriously. I mean, some
spying is to be expected but not to justify the banning of all the company.

I thought it was obvious that this have nothing to do with spying. Some
elements in the USA government and legislative have decided that China could
be a threat to American only superpower status.

By the way, what happened with the Bloomberg allegations? (1)

(1) - [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-10-04/the-
big-h...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-10-04/the-big-hack-how-
china-used-a-tiny-chip-to-infiltrate-america-s-top-companies)

~~~
ymolodtsov
I’m not sure how 5G infrastructure or smartphones threaten the status of a
superpower in any sense. Also, at this point Bloomberg is already an outlet
that can’t be trusted as they haven’t provided any follow-up to the Super
Micro story.

~~~
Yetanfou
Smartphones are universal data collection devices, each of which is capable of
gathering audio-, video-, RF-, location-, motion- and activity-based
intelligence. Some add various other capabilities like air pressure,
temperature and humidity to the list. Controlling this massive data source is
massively valuable. Since each device contains a fairly powerful radio
transmitter they can also be used as jammers by those who control the (closed,
proprietary) RF firmware. All these devices are battery-powered so they can
not just be disabled by pulling the plug (or the battery in 'modern' devices).

5G infrastructure adds another layer to the intelligence gathering
infrastructure as well as an even more powerful jamming capability. Cell
towers are equipped with battery backup as well so they can not easily be
disabled by cutting the power to the tower.

Any party in control of these assets has strategic and tactical advantages
over their adversary: strategic in that this allows for intelligence
gathering, tactical in that this allows for precise targeting, jamming, denial
of service, control of connected infrastructure for whatever purpose and more
[1].

[1] Controlling mobile infrastructure over a wide area adds the prospect of
using it to defy 'stealth' (low radar cross-section) by capturing off-axis
reflections, etc.

------
z3t4
I hope Huawei make a fully open source and hack-able mobile phone. I think
that would sell like crazy on the western market where everyone hates Google,
and ride the news wave and turn it around into their favor.

~~~
ymolodtsov
People don’t hate Google as much as you want to believe, people love Google
Search/Maps/Gmail and everyone who wanted “a fully open source phone” could
install MicroG for a long time already.

~~~
onlydeadheroes
Google is very different in the age of "gmail ain't done 'til firefox won't
run"...

------
walrus01
It's fairly well known in the telecom and internet infrastructure field that
Huawei stole Nortel's entire DWDM and optical transport product line and
duplicated it. The ex Nortel HQ office building in the Ottawa area was found
to be riddled with high tech bugs.

------
moltar
Just a reminder that Nortel, an ex-Canadian giant was “spied to death” by
Huawei back in early 2000s. The stolen tech is the foundation of Huawei.

------
MordodeMaru
This is a superb summary and a great call to action to get together and
examine in depth the out of band data leaks and data management.

------
colinb
I know with some certainty that US based companies provide source for
communications software to US three letter agencies. I think it's strange to
expect that a Chinese company would refuse to render the same services to
analogous agencies in China.

Whether US companies would willingly insert changes at the behest of those
agencies I do not know.

------
rbrtdrmpc-
Huawei was under the radar of national security agencies (look at the S, not
just the US) for years

------
diminish
Huawei won't be spying but will also limit US spying. so it is a no go.

Currently there are 5 coountries USA, Russia, Israel and China playing the
digital intelligence game with enough talent and companies.

On your mobile phone only those countries have a window for spying.

~~~
lostmsu
I don't think Russia is capable of spying on mobile phones. And have doubts
about Israel too. How would they even get there?

~~~
diminish
Endless apps and vulnerabilities.

~~~
lostmsu
But then you have to install a Russian app. And WebView component is
autoupdated in recent Androids.

------
aaomidi
I know people who work for Huawei in Iran. They are spying.

------
chvid
First of all: This is not about "banning" Huawei in USA. Huawei is not in the
US. It is about preventing the rest of the world in using Huawei.

The Trump administration has spent the last year or so trying to convince
allies not to use Huawei and apparently has failed to do so. So now it does
this.

Trump seems to think he can win an election on China; this may be the case.
However doing so will probably hurt the longterm interest of the US.

Forcing millions of European Huawei users away from Google services is neither
in the business interest of Google nor does it benefit the intelligence
gathering capabilities of the US.

~~~
elp
I don't think the President realizes just how much this will harm the USA in
the long run.

He is basically telling the rest of the world to think long and hard before
using any American tech in their products. Also his allies are increasingly
less and less inclined to listen to him. The French have openly said they will
continue to use Huawei. The Brits are going to use them anyway, the just
didn't want the USA to know.

Edit: sorry. toned down the language.

------
diminish
Huawei passed Apple in 2018 and Q12019. It threatens Samsung to become Number
1 soon. Oppo, Xiaomi and other Chinese smartphone manufacturers are also
rising.

Old Nokia, HTC, Erickson, Sony, ( US allies like Europe, Taiwan, Japan ) are
losing .

Only South Korea held on but is the next one to get pushed into
insignificance.

Trump uses non free market tools to stop this growth.

[https://www.counterpointresearch.com/huaweis-global-
smartpho...](https://www.counterpointresearch.com/huaweis-global-smartphone-
market-share-reaches-highest-ever-level-q1-2019/)

