
Dear Apple, there’s nothing ‘really sad’ about using a 5-year-old PC - Ph4nt0m
http://thenextweb.com/opinion/2016/03/21/apple-hypocritical-insensitive-pc-users-old-pc/
======
mikehearn
I interpreted that comment as a jab at the PC industry. The implication being
that in the last 5+ years the PC industry has failed to offer 600 million
users a compelling reason to upgrade. Isn't that the correct interpretation,
considering the whole point of bringing that up is because they're positioning
a new device intended to replace the PC? I seriously doubt it's intended to
mean (to quote the article) "LOL poor people".

Granted, this interpretation would make for a boring thinkpiece and would not
get me to #1 on HN.

~~~
incepted
> I seriously doubt it's intended to mean (to quote the article) "LOL poor
> people".

He didn't mean to but this is the general reflection of the culture that
permeates Apple as a company and the bubble in which they live.

I remember once one of my wealthy friends saying "I don't understand why
people live in one bedroom apartments". I stared at her for a solid minute to
determine if she was joking but no, she was dead serious. She genuinely did
not understand. She was born and raised in a wealthy family and she just had
lost track of the rest of the world.

Schiller and the Apple execs have similar blinders on and once in a while, the
mask drops in a public speech because the speech writers and their
proofreaders have similar blinders on and didn't realize the enormity of the
implication.

~~~
googamooga
This story is old as the world. "Qu'ils mangent de la brioche" \- "Let them
eat a cake", as great princess Marie Antoinette said upon learning that the
peasants had no bread.

~~~
yoha
There is no support for that.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let_them_eat_cake](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let_them_eat_cake)

------
sudosushi
As someone sitting at a nearly 5 year old Macbook Pro, I took the comment as
an off hand throwaway. I understand not liking the comment, but this isn't
news. A company thinks everyone should be using the latest of their products.
Oh no.

~~~
onion2k
_A company thinks everyone should be using the latest of their products. Oh
no._

An alternative way to read this is that Apple themselves don't believe their
own products will be worth using after 5 years, and will therefore fail to
support them properly in the long term. Anyone in the market for a computer to
last longer than that (eg most home users, and many corporate users who don't
lease) might have to look elsewhere.

This is not an offhand throwaway comment. This speaks to the absolute heart of
Apple's strategy.

~~~
ams6110
Apple makes no money on the OS. That is included with the hardware and
upgrades are free. So aside from services such as App Store and iTunes, Apple
has to sell hardware to make money. It's not in their interest to encourage
people to hang on to older hardware as long as possible.

~~~
onion2k
_It 's not in their interest to encourage people to hang on to older hardware
as long as possible._

There's a difference between encouraging people to hang on to hardware for as
long as possible and actively driving away your customers by laughing at them
or suggesting that your own products will be obsolete before the customer is
ready to update again.

To maximise their profit on hardware Apple should be encouraging users to stay
within the Apple ecosystem, even if those customers only upgrade every 10
years. This is especially true in today's climate of very powerful computers
that will _easily_ do most things a home user wants to do even after a decade.
As someone who writes web software I am _acutely_ aware that there are users
who are still using old PCs with old software.

For Apple to push their customers to abandon Apple products in favour of
things that last longer is corporate suicide.

------
NikolaeVarius
I swear, if a modern tech company went up and said 'We think you should buy
our product", someone would start yelling about how its insulting how a
company is endorising capitalism and materialism.

We've gone from "Won't somebody think of the children" to "Won't somebody
think of every single possible group that is possible to somehow offend in
some way"

~~~
wrong_variable
No.

What apple is saying today is something that it has always said - but its only
recently that people in america are too poor to buy american products.

I grew up around windows and linux, and whenever I tell that in a job
interview - people think I am not being serious since "real developers" use
mac.

In my first software job - I was told to abandon my personal cheap linux and
use the company's brand new expensive apple - even though I was more
productive on my cheap linux.

Apple has always been like that, its just that most people who come from money
do not hear it.

Edit:

Also you will notice this in poorer countries - a strong ecosystem for
recycling exists everywhere outside of the US/UK. When I brought my first bike
in the UK, I wanted to repair it and was told to just ditch it and get a new
one !

It was extremely odd to me since I expected that bike to last at-least 20
years.

When my 3 year old laptop stopped working - I had it repaired rather than buy
a newer one - even though repairing was almost as expensive as getting a new
one. It just fell really wrong ditching a laptop rather than repairing it.

Maybe you are right - western societies do worship materialism.

~~~
stuxnet79
> I grew up around windows and linux, and whenever I tell that in a job
> interview - people think I am not being serious since "real developers" use
> mac.

How true is this? I have noticed the proliferation of Macs in the developer
community and I was wondering how much it would hurt me professionally by not
owning one. Do devs really make snap judgements based on your platform of
choice and could this impact me professionally in the long term?

~~~
logfromblammo
_Real_ real developers use a precision flathead screwdriver and a bank of DIP
switches.~

One of the great triumphs of computing was abstracting the algorithm away from
the specifics of the hardware using compilers. We have the good fortune to be
able to configure those compilers to generate several varieties of executable
containers, such as ELF, a.out, COFF, EXE (MZ), EXE (PE/COFF), JAR, Mach-O,
and others. As long as the OS has an installed virtual machine or ABI that can
handle the executable, it will be able to run it.

If anyone got snooty with me about my _hardware_ , I think I'd consider myself
lucky to not need to work with them.

Does it have a text editor? Does it have a compiler? Yes to both means that
real developers can use it.

~~~
Crito
It's all fun and games until your boss's boss walks into the room and says _"
Why aren't you using Eclipse? Real developers use Eclipse."_

If you have sufficient seniority, you can tell them to fuck off without
worrying. But if you're new to the company, or worse, industry...

------
johansch
I built a desktop PC almost exactly five years ago.

\- Intel Core i5 2500K, 3.3 GHz, quad-core (200 USD)

\- 8B (2x4GB) DDR3 1600MHz C9 (100 USD)

\- 120GB 2.5" SSD Intel X25-M G2 (200 USD)

\- GeForce GTX 460 1GB (200 USD)

It's sad that a full five years later, CPU performance/USD has barely moved at
all. RAM is half the cost now, SSDs a quarter the cost. Not sure about how
GPUs have developed?

(Edit: The GTX 960 which today also costs 200 USD seems to be about twice as
fast as the GTX 460.)

~~~
Spooky23
You represent the 5% of PC consumers.

The average person goes to Walmart/Bestbuy/BJ's/Staples and spends $475 on
some shitbox laptop. The 25th percentile user (ie. millions of people)
probably spent $275-325.

That average person who bought that average PC in 2011 has an aging
HP/Dell/Asus laptop with a failing battery, $30 Celeron or AMD processor, 2GB
memory, integrated graphics, a 500GB 5400rpm disk and integrated graphics.

~~~
slantyyz
I still have my 2008 plastic Macbook refurb that I still use to browse the
web.

I had the pre-release Win 10/64 on it for a while, and it actually ran faster
than OSX did on that machine (in my experience, Windows runs faster on Mac
than OSX itself, but ymmv). And keep in mind that my Macbook pretty much got
left behind by OSX after Lion.

~~~
Pengwin
I was reasonably happy on my bosses plastic Macbook until OSX stopped
supporting them, and I need xCode for my job.

I now have his non retina Macbook pro to compile apps, and i fear the day that
stops working too.

------
danielvf
This is classic trolling, plain and simple.

The head of marketing thinks that using a competitor's product is "sad".

In response, this article calls Apple: "Insensitive". Offensive.
"Hypocritical". "Insulting". And worst of all, promoting inequality by
building high quality, expensive products and forgetting the needs of the
poor.

It's an article designed to produce a response.

------
BWStearns
Really this isn't terribly offensive. They're selling a product they think is
superior, in their [marketing] minds the world would be a better place if you
were pulled from the womb, slapped on the ass, and handed an iPad Pro, to be
renewed every generation of gadget.

The Apple presentation stage is not the Basilica of St Peter. These are
marketing pronouncements, not moral ones and analyzing them as such is such
intense naval gazing that it's actually bad for your neck. If Apple hates the
poor it's for no reason other than that they're outside their customer base.

------
existencebox
Perhaps I have some wires crossed from too much time as a sysadmin, but I take
a 5 year old (+) PC (or any machine, really) as a mark of pride, not any bit
of shame whatsoever. It speaks to a high degree of reliability which often
speaks well of the operator (even if just "choosing robust hardware" is a
component of this)

Some stories to add some color to this: Ran a very primitive file sharing
server for my university on a dual P(2 or 3, don't quite remember) machine
that was probably around a decade old by the time they finally ended up
retiring it. My home fileserver is a ~10 TB 4U monster, running on
(conveniently) 5 year old hardware and very boring FBSD. Outside of moving
apartments, it has not had unplanned downtime once, I will continue using it
as long as this is true and would be sad if I didn't get another good few
years out of it.

I _WISH_ I could get the same lifetime out of desktop PCs but I tend to find
assorted parts failing at an asymptotic rate around 3-5 years. The world in
which we all use <5 year old hardware is a sad one, to be avoided, to my eyes.
(To clarify, I don't mean this in any luddite sense, I don't believe tech
should stop moving forward, but I long for more robust products with longer
viable lifespans, such that one can make a choice to upgrade rather than
waiting for the inevitable.)

~~~
NEDM64
That's not a PC (Personal Computer), it's a server.

You are thinking about hardware, Apple is talking about the whole computer.

~~~
existencebox
You're right, but I was not trying to make a 1:1 comparison, but saying that
properties servers seem to have in spades I'd really appreciate seeing in
other markets, but that segment seems rarely catered to. (Let me gesture as
well to my 2.5 year old phone whose irreplaceable battery is currently
ballooning)

My statement addressed the "whole computer" as well, although the FS example
was very much a special niche tool, I'd go so far as to say 90% of novel
software features that have necessitated hardware refreshes in the last...
decade? I could probably live without. This may be mildly hyperbole, but I
hope the spirit of my statement comes across. I want to spend less time
replacing/fixing my platforms and more time with them "just working".

------
oldmanjay
I'm not a fan of moralistic handwringing, particularly when it's brought about
by uncharitable interpretations of what is clearly just marketing. This and
the related articles are such poor quality that it makes me sad to see them
get so much traction here. It's the sort of thing I'd expect at dailytech or
slashdot.

------
colund
In times of climate change debate I think Apple is doing the wrong thing here,
encouraging buy and throw away mentality increasing waste.

~~~
Pengwin
Ive had that exact same feeling since my iPad 1's life was effectively ended
by software updates. It was the quickest device to become obsolete I've ever
owned.

~~~
kalleboo
As someone who had to develop for that thing - it was underpowered from day 1.
iPhone 3GS hardware with 5x the number of pixels to push and higher
expectations on software capability? It was never going to work.

~~~
Pengwin
I somewhat agree with you about its specs, However when it came out of the box
it was a smooth and snappy tablet.

------
specialp
It is ironic that Apple is mentioning this as I believe this is going to spell
the end of their era of massive profits. Phones now are getting to the state
where much like PCs, the older phone is good enough, and the new phone is not
substantially better. There will always be people buying a phone for .2ghz
more CPU or some slightly higher res screen, but the days of rapid evolution
of mobile devices are over, and Apple is going to have problems selling
someone a $6-800 phone every year or 2.

~~~
cookiemonsta
But with new OS versions, older phones quickly start to show their age. An
iphone 4 or iphone 4s on the latest version of iOS it supports is really
sluggish and slow (and no easy way to put iOS6/7 back on it)

~~~
empressplay
this is by design, though, obviously.

providing "upgrades" to previous models incapable of truly supporting them is
kind of an Apple trademark

------
tombert
Did nothing interesting happen in the tech world today? This is such a non-
story, it's really weird that this is on the front-page twice.

~~~
dublinben
Pornhub launched a new VR channel for 180 and 360 degree content.

Tinder Adds “Swipe The Vote” so you can hook up with your candidate.

You decide whether either of these are more deserving.

------
agentgt
I interpreted it as "it's sad that those Window users having been using just
Windows for 5 or more years and not Mac".

IMO He's catering to the audience of Apple enthusiasts (who are the ones that
watch Apple events generally) and not making fun of poor people.

Its sort of analogous to when Jobs said: _" It's like giving a glass of ice
water to somebody in hell"_ \-- about iTunes on Windows computers

Oh so Jobs thinks Windows users are Evil since they are in hell right?

~~~
logfromblammo
Methinks Jobs had an overly high opinion of iTunes.

Giving iTunes to a Windows user is more like giving a massive, ugly, wooden
horse to a Trojan, and it is so incredibly unwieldy that the lintel has to be
removed from the city gate to even get it inside. Then a bunch of bearded
maniacs come out of it and kill everybody.

I can't even tell you how many times I have been murdered in my sleep by
iTunes. Okay, well, yes I can--zero. But that doesn't stop me from thinking it
might happen one day.

~~~
agentgt
Yes I agree. Even on my Mac I have seen it take more memory than Spotify and
Spotify these days is basically running a Chrome instance.

I use VLC for most quicktime/itunes things these days.

------
apatters
If there's something sad about that fact, it's that the industry has delivered
so little value in the past 5 years that not many people feel compelled to
upgrade!

~~~
slantyyz
> If there's something sad about that fact, it's that the industry has
> delivered so little value in the past 5 years that not many people feel
> compelled to upgrade!

The glass half-full response?

The industry has delivered so much value in the past 5-8 years that not many
people feel compelled to upgrade!

~~~
massysett
Exactly. I haven't upgraded my washing machine or refrigerator in the last 5
years either. The people Schiller was sneering at view PCs as appliances, and
they don't watch Apple press conferences anyway.

------
johnhattan
Actually, my main development tower is about nine years old.

And in that time, I've upgraded the processor, doubled the memory, upgraded
the hard drive to an SSD, switched the video card twice, upped the number of
connected monitors from one to three, and upgraded the OS from 32-bit Vista to
64-bit Windows 10.

It was pretty leading edge when I built it, and it's still pretty leading edge
today. What's sad is the expectation that I should throw my computer away
every 18 months.

~~~
optforfon
Once you replace the motherboard it'll be a true modern day Ship of Theseus

~~~
Caprinicus
Unless he's on AMD and the processor upgrade was very minor, he almost
certainly did.

It's odd when people say "my computer is a decade old and I've only had to
replace every single part multiple times over look at how green I'm being".
It's the exact same thing as buying a new computer a couple times, just in
smaller increments and with parts that are less likely to be recycled on their
own.

~~~
johnhattan
Yep, AMD. And the only thing I got rid of were the video cards, which I sold
on ebay.

I put the old drive in an external case and used it to archive old engineering
projects. Kept the original monitor and added the other two.

I did have to trash my keyboard after I spilled coffee on it, though :)

------
sergiotapia
Jesus christ, they are in the business of selling computers. This faux outrage
over a salesman trying to sell his computers is gross - what's wrong with
people?

Now watch as every blog tries to scramble to see who has the most outrage and
who is the largest victim.

------
dcustodio
Some people need to feel offended just as I need my morning coffee. I'm not
even counting how old is my pc/laptop and that's the thing I like about PCs -
there's hardly anything new that triggers my Gear Acquisition Syndrome.

------
c0achmcguirk
"I want to be offended!"

signed, people who take offense at a off-hand remark like this.

Grow some thicker skin and stop wasting my screen real estate with irrelevant
non-stories like this.

------
imaffett
I still use my 2009 MBP. I upgraded to an SSD drive and 8 gigs of ram. I don't
game on it, but I can do almost all of my development on it. I'll admit it's
slower then my 2013 MPB at work, but I see no reason to spend more money on a
working computer.

My second computer is a Chromebook. My oldest daughter uses it for school work
and we couldn't be happier. It's much better then our iPad (which we don't use
anymore).

------
studentrob
Schiller is marketing his product. This is no different from the "I'm a Mac,
I'm a PC" commercials.

There are now _two_ articles on the HN front page about this utterly pedantic
topic which boils down to marketing. Unbelievable.

------
fit2rule
You know what makes me really happy? Any computer being used for
fun/interesting/productive things, not just 'the latest ones'.

As a die-hard retrocomputing enthusiast with far more old computers in my
basement than new, I'm biased. But I sure think that the time has come for the
compute industry to start highlighting the need for lesser computing power,
but yet still more productive computing.

8-bit computers are awesome. 16-bit machines superb! Get yourself set up with
these systems and you can entertain yourself for hours and hours. 8-bit is a
great way to learn software development - 2 hours of 8-bit coding a week will
keep you sharper than sharp when the time comes to go back to the
hipstertools-de-jour. (I kid, I kid.)

Point is this, folks: old computers never die - their users do.

------
parenthesis
Until earlier this year I was still making heavy use of a Powerbook from 2004.
I only stopped using it because the graphics hardware started to go funny.

I sold its battery, memory and power supply to someone still using a slightly
older Powerbook.

------
drzaiusapelord
If anything its a fairly strong statement on the ruggedness of the PC
platform. I have a 2500k i5 in my old desktop. With a new-ish videocard I play
all the newest AAA games at high quality. Its incredible how the x86 world
really hasn't had any huge performance bumps and how a Q1 2011 CPU is still
competitive.

Also, there's the larger narrative of people buying tablets and putting off PC
upgrades, so the PC ages. Don't worry Apple, you're still getting their money.
Its just people aren't ready to replace a general purpose computer that they
control and can run pretty much everything with a walled garden mobile device
designed to get ad impressions and consume media.

If anything, this is Apple's frustration. They have all this success but
people and businesses keep buying PCs. They'll never crack this market.
They're too invested in the Jobsian "closed" ecosystem philosophy to be as
agile as the PC platform. Mocking those who don't drink their kool-aid just
makes them look like sore winners.

edit: I'm aware I can buy a newer chip, but from a single core vs single core
perspective its not that much faster. Very little consumer software is
properly multi-threaded so this is why my expensive work computer with the
newest i7 doesnt feel any faster than my 5 year old desktop at home. Most
things are pegged to one core and at the end of the day single core
performance is what's going to matter.

~~~
acqq
> I have a 2500k i5 in my old desktop.

> Its incredible how the x86 world really hasn't had any huge performance
> bumps and how a Q1 2011 CPU is still competitive.

Actually you can have _twice as fast_ desktop CPU today than your 2500k, and
not for some number crunching you'll maybe never need (even though it's the
most important thing for others) but for such common tasks like compiling the
code:

[http://techreport.com/r.x/skylake/legacy1-qtbench.gif](http://techreport.com/r.x/skylake/legacy1-qtbench.gif)

Not bad at all for the times when the hardware speedups are getting harder.

But it's good that even the newest games don't expect only the latest CPU.

~~~
venomsnake
Where is the doubled single core performance? We have more cores now, but they
are almost as fast as 3-4 years ago.

------
tfandango
I'm a little sour on Apple. They say their products are rugged and "built to
last", but an iPad is mostly glass which you need to encase in a giant rubber
protective case if you don't want the screen shattered. Even then they are
easy to break and very costly to fix, to the point now where it barely makes
sense to fix it over replace it. Self-Repair is less expensive but so far I'm
50/50 on successes. I would say they are built to last, until the next one
comes out.

~~~
secstate
The killer part is that it's only expensive to repair because Apple has opted
not to streamline a repair pipeline. There is absolutely no way a digitizer
glued to a piece of glass costs $500 otherwise they'd never make another iPad.

But if they price the part hideously expensively it makes buying a new one a
no-brainer. Working in a school for a few years, I was amazed how easily and
inexpensively I could replace screens and memory on 2008-era white macbooks
when I had access to school channels for parts priced at cost (or close
enough). I think we had access to those channels as a stipulation in a state
contract to buy assloads of those machines for every kid in the state.

------
flyinghamster
As someone who just picked up a reconditioned six-year-old, i7-equipped
ThinkPad for a hell of a lot less money than what it would have cost brand-
new, I have to laugh. It may not be the Latest and Greatest, but it's still
speedy enough to handle anything I'm going to throw at it. The CPU performance
curve has flattened out in the last few years, to the point that it's not
worth spending lots of money for a modest performance gain.

I'll let someone else take the depreciation hit.

~~~
basch
considering cpu speed has been "good enough since around core 2 duos (late
2006?) the only major improvements since then have been battery life and ssd
cost.

anyone with a computer from the last 10 years that can support an ssd and 8+gb
ram, is probably fine. travel being the exception.

------
emp_
The only thing not lasting more than 5 years in my 20+ years owning computers
are Macs, other iDevices and PCs are much, much stabler. Macbook Pro 2008
(died in 3 years), iMac 27 2010 (died in 4.8 years), Macbook Air 2013 (dying)
and Mac Mini 2012 (dying) are the reason why I always end up coming back to my
2010 gaming PC and 2010 HTPC, the ones to break the 5+ year mark without a
major hardware failure.

------
po1nter
I don't understand how the author went from the guy saying it's "really sad"
to "Apple is insulting people". I mean even his first argument on why people
don't upgrade IS actually sad since they can't afford to do that. I know it is
because I'm one of those people who can't afford to upgrade my machine.

/rant typed on a 5 year old Asus N53SV.

------
tobeportable
[http://www.apple.com/environment/](http://www.apple.com/environment/)

------
mrbill
I said this in the other thread..

I just bought a "new to me" laptop.

Refurb Thinkpad T420s from 2011.

I added 16G RAM, two Intel SSDs, an Ultrabay battery, and an 802.12ac wifi
card.

Grand total: less than $325.

This will be my primary portable for at least 2-3 years, and it's already four
years old.

Just because I can afford Apple doesn't mean I can justify the 2x price
premium, or that "old" hardware isn't capable.

~~~
kamaal
May I ask from where you bought it and how did you upgrade it. Looks like a
very interested configuration.

~~~
mrbill
I tend to get my refurb Thinkpads from arrowdirect.com. You can use the code
ARROW for 20% off.

I ordered this one as 4G/128SSD but already had the RAM on hand to upgrade it
to 16G.

Part sources:

(if you want to upgrade from the 128G) Intel Pro 1500 180G: $55
[http://www.ebay.com/itm/Intel-Pro-1500-180-GB-2-5-SSD-
Intern...](http://www.ebay.com/itm/Intel-Pro-1500-180-GB-2-5-SSD-Internal-
Solid-State-Drive-SSDSC2BF180A4H-/191728007943)

(optional) Intel 310 80G mSATA SSD: $30
[http://www.ebay.com/itm/INTEL-310-Series-80GB-mSATA-SSD-
SSDM...](http://www.ebay.com/itm/INTEL-310-Series-80GB-mSATA-SSD-
SSDMAEMC080G2-/231812886235)

Ultrabay battery: $28 [http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lenovo-Thinkpad-
Battery-43-3-Cell-Ba...](http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lenovo-Thinkpad-
Battery-43-3-Cell-Bay-Lenovo-Genuine-FRU-0A36310-NIB-/141898955475)

Intel 7260 802.11ac MiniPCIe wifi card: $28
[http://www.amazon.com/Intel-7260-HMWG-R-Wireless-AC-
Bluetoot...](http://www.amazon.com/Intel-7260-HMWG-R-Wireless-AC-Bluetooth-
Mounting/dp/B00MY9S692)

An external USB3 enclosure for the Ultrabay DVDRW drive will run around $30 on
Amazon.

To install the Intel 7260 card, you will need to install a modified "whitelist
removed" BIOS, as Lenovo restricts what MiniPCIe cards can go in their systems
by default. The system comes with an 802.11n card (mine was an Intel Centrino
6205).

My only complaint about ArrowDirect is that if they have a system model that
could have different screen resolutions, you have no way of specifying /
requesting certain specs; you get what they pull and send.

Every system I've ordered from them (close to ten now) has arrived in near-
mint condition; this t420s would be amazingly perfect if not for a scuff of
the rubberized paint/coating on the top lid (which doesn't matter to me one
bit).

------
islane
Echoing the comments from others, My "main" pc is about 7 years old running
the x58 platform (socket 1366) - it easily outperforms my work-supplied
development laptop.

For the uninitiated, the ebay workstations mentioned are typically these
ancient x58's. Most support hex core xeons, 24gb ram (or 48gb unofficially,
more on server boards and some workstations), and a pile of PCI-express lanes.
As such, you can easily add in PCI-express m.2 SSDs, USB 3/3.1, and GPU's to
your heart's content. The takeaway is that old pc tech can be had at a
fraction the cost of new hardware with comparable performance.

I understand the marketing nonsense from Apple, the "PC does what" consortium,
and hardware vendors on the whole - but there is nothing sad about owning an
old pc. The reality is that the best performance for the price lies in
"obsolete" platforms.

------
atomical
Is there anything sad about using a 5 year old mac? I'm hoping that eventually
my mac book pro will last 5-10 years. With multi-core systems, SSDs, and 16
gigs of ram in MBP's do we really need to be upgrading so much? Also, clock
speed advances have stalled.

------
sz4kerto
I think I have a rusty, almost 5 year old PC lying around. It has an Intel
i7-2600K overclocked to 4.6 GHz, 24 GB RAM, 240G SSD and a Radeon 6950 GPU
that can run most games well in fHD.

Most of the machines Apple sells are actually slower than this PC.

~~~
atonse
That's a great exception to the rule. The overwhelming majority of computers
Apple is talking about, are probably shitty $400 PCs that were underpowered
from day one, which are just barely chugging along.

Because that is actually what most people buy.

~~~
paulmd
Thing is, OS bloat has finally ground to a halt. Win8.1 wasn't really any
slower than 7, and Win10 is actually faster in my experience. So really, you
don't need a stronger machine today than you did five years ago. Any perceived
slowdown is just the result of malware, fragmentation, and DLL buildup -
refresh the OS and maybe install an SSD and they're fine.

I'm using a laptop from 2010 with an i7-720QM and an SSD, and it's perfectly
snappy. I frequently let it do light encoding tasks while I'm using my
desktop.

~~~
atonse
Partly. Yes, the operating systems feel faster, but they are all relying more
on GPUs for their rendering. And one way cheap Windows PCs keep their costs
down is by using cheap integrated GPUs that are quite underpowered.

I use Windows 10 on in VMWare every day at 4k resolution on my retina macbook
pro. It feels a bit sluggish, but I know I'm pushing the limits of VM graphics
on a laptop with that resolution. But I can only imagine that a computer
that's 6-7 years old would start to struggle graphically in Windows 10.

------
draw_down
I agree that this was tone-deaf of them, I just find it fascinating that we
picked this one instance of tech industry rich guy tone-deafness. Seems to be
getting a lot of play for some reason. But it's everywhere if you look.

------
scarface74
Thinking of all of the computers I've had since 2007, all of them are usable
and still in use at least once a week.

2006 era Mac Mini Core Duo 1.66Ghz. Run Windows 7 gave it to my mom. She still
uses it.

2009 era Sony Viao - Core Duo 1.66Ghz, 2Gb RAM. Windows 7. My son uses it for
Office and MineCraft

2009 Dell Pentium Dusl Core 2Ghz, 4Gb of RAM. It's still my only laptop. The
display is 1600x900 and is still better than many cheap laptops. The battery
is crap though.

2011 Core 2 Duo 2.66Ghz laptop. My wife's computer. It's still feels fast.

My workhouse is a 3Ghz I3 with 6Gb of RAM. Bought in 2012.

------
Overtonwindow
I agree with this piece. I have long been upset at Apple's forced obsolesce
policy, and creating the notion that devices are disposable. I still have a
Macbook from 2009, and another from 2012, that I am doing everything in my
power to upgrade and avoid the forced slow down. Likewise with my iPad and
phone. I resist the persistent upgrade requests to the OS. Not because I am
blase about security issues, or not wanting bugs to be fixed, but because
those fixes and upgrades come with a cost: premature, forced obsolescence.

------
rsync
You know what's _really_ sad ?

I am using a 2009 octo mac pro, which is now _7 years old_ and since that
date, apple has not released a single product that is compelling enough to
upgrade that system.

------
balls187
I believe that an iPad (or comparable Android Tablet) is better for most
computer users than any low/mid-tier 5-year old PC.

With PC's you can upgrade them, and make tweaks to squeeze out every bit of
performance, but by and large for most people, when taking into account that
mobile content consumption is on the rise, a tablet is a better upgrade than a
new PC. Tasks like email, text, video, music, photography, facebook, are
pretty much now done via mobile phone. For these people, PCs are
anachronistic.

------
reacweb
I have a HP Pavilion Elite m9458fr bought in july 2009 for 416€ (on eBay
hp_marketplace_fr). I only need a silent reliable computer with a reasonably
fast CPU for web development on Linux. I have no need for beefy GPU, I just
need to connect 2 displays (23" and 19"). I would like to replace it in order
to have USB3 connectors and SATA III HD. I do not find anything on the market
for reasonable price. Should I buy a ultra-HD laptop with a magnifying lens ?

------
gd2
It seems a somewhat strained interpretation to view this as Apple is anti-poor
people. But it does point out that Apple is losing touch with what people do
with personal computing power.

Phone are much better then five years ago, computers not so much. I'd much
rather spend my dollars where the major improvement in computing technology
is, then spending to upgrade a desktop to view thing almost the same as
before.

------
PaulHoule
The main problem I see is Intel and Microsoft have given up on power users and
it is all Apple envy and phone envy, no wonder people don't buy new PCs.

Back in the 0s I had a policy of never rehabilitating an old PC because a new
PC was better in every way.

The other day a friend brought a Macbook from 2007 to me with a busted HDD and
I put an ssd I had laying around in and we got Win10 running on it with no
drama and no Apple malware (iTunes, boot camp, etc.) It feel faster than a
skylake machine with one of those useless hybrid hard drives and after puffing
some hcfc gas through the fan it is great.

Any and or pre core 2 machine would go to the trash, I would not even donate
it to the poor, but frankly broadwell and skylake are just an excuse to reduce
the io slots to put manufacturers of gfx cards.

They say customers get better battery life but software screws that up if they
really tried it and the most you can get is spend a lot of money on a thin and
light machine that the doorman can slide under the hotel or get a 2 in 1
machine just because you need a trackpad on a touchpad machine and have a
fight over if and where you stow it with the stewardess just to have another
reason to get arrested at your destination.

I mean, even IBM sells 360 chips that clock over 5 that use water cooling. It
is not that hard.

------
ayb
I'm using a MacBook Pro from late 2011.

Most of the actual machine specs (i.e. processor and max RAM) have barely
changed in 5 years. I put 16 Gb in my laptop 5 years ago and it's still the
most you can squeeze into a 13" MacBook Pro.

It's sad (and somewhat telling) that Apple has not packed more power into this
form factor over the past 5 years.

------
johndevor
Holy crap the "politically correct" army has entered the tech world. We're not
safe anywhere...

------
craigmccaskill
I'm using a ~5 year old PC I built myself and it still outperforms the
hardware in any available mac product (desktop, tablet or laptop) that isn't a
Mac Pro (starting price $2999,00).

I don't have a compelling reason to upgrade until the launch of VR headsets.

~~~
balls187
I am also using a phone that outperforms the hardware of any available PC that
wasn't built in this century.

Putting aside the hyperbole, I'm willing to bet the USB 3.0 and TB2 ports on
my MBP out perform the ports on your 5-year old PC.

~~~
craigmccaskill
I actually have 2 USB 3.0 ports. USB 3.0 was first available on ASUS
motherboards in late 2009 [1]. Thunderbolt wasn't available at that point but
it was unveiled with the Thunderbolt Display, which was July 20th 2011, so
coming up fast on 5 years old tech at this point. I personally have no use for
20Gbps transfers so TB2 has zero draw for me to upgrade.

Talking about hyperbole, you're comparing brand new hardware vs something that
was released in 1999 (so 16 years of moore's law) against the point that the
hardware apple uses in it's cutting edge desktops/laptops is pretty comparable
to the stuff commercially available 5 years ago, which is a valid point.

If Apple wants to shame the market for not upgrading in the last 5 years,
maybe they should offer a valid reason to upgrade outside of a marketing
campaign appealing to 'want' and additional software features which a recent
change actually made free anyway.

The idea that I could replace my PC with an iPad pro is just plain wrong.

[1]
[http://www.pcworld.com/article/174672/Asus_Debut_First_USB_3...](http://www.pcworld.com/article/174672/Asus_Debut_First_USB_30_Motherboard.html)

~~~
balls187
My hyperbole was making fun of your silly statement that your 5 year old
computer out performs all the hardware that Apple makes[1]

My phone is more powerful than any PC[2]

I am the richest man in Seattle[3]

> The idea that I could replace my PC with an iPad pro is just plain wrong.

I'll take your word on that. But that isn't true for all PC users. I have a
pretty beefy machine, not the latest and greatest, but a hex-core, 12gb,
960gtx and dual 30" monitors, which I use wholly for gaming. Youtubing,
videoing, etc, have all moved to my ipad+appletv, and with my PS4, I finally
feel like I have a console that provides a real crisp gaming experience. So
I'm ready to no longer maintain my $2k PC, and switch to something like a
SteamMachine.

[1] if you exclude the MacPro.

[2] made before the year 2000

[3] if you exclude the people that have more money than I do.

~~~
craigmccaskill
Silly statement that's factually correct and entirely relevant to a discussion
about the lack of reason to upgrade hardware to something Apple currently
makes?

When your comparison is to bring up a 16 year hardware difference or to
incorrectly comment at the lack of transfer standards available to me and also
suggesting that I even needed said transfer speed or peripherals, I don't
understand what impact you're trying to have on the discussion.

I excluded the mac pro because it costs ~$1k more than I spent on my computer
5 years ago. I could spend the same ~$2k and build a similar or the ~$3k and a
far more powerful computer, but I realize that isn't available to everyone and
so omitted it as it wasn't a fair comparison and not relevant to the
conversation on an Apple exec suggesting that people don't upgrade their
computers frequently enough and should instead buy the latest iPad Pro every
2-3 years.

I really don't get what point you're trying to make, other than being overly
pedantic and argumentative. There isn't much reason to upgrade hardware,
especially not within the Apple ecosystem and these comments from an Apple
exec are very far from the mark. If you don't agree with that statement then
I'm happy to discuss, but your current line of reasoning is flawed and
unproductive.

~~~
balls187
> I don't understand what impact you're trying to have on the discussion.

> I really don't get what point you're trying to make

The point I'm making with you is the strong confirmation bias (See
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias))
to your belief that there is no compelling reason to upgrade from an older PC
to a tablet.

You are selectively fitting evidence (ignoring MacPros) to ensure your
anecdotal argument is factually correct, then using that statement as the
basis for invalidating the assertion that PC users with old hardware would
benefit from "upgrading" to an iPad.

There is no reason for you who presumably has a very powerful, albeit "old",
PC to upgrade to a tablet. That does not mean every other person with an old
computer will also not benefit from replacing their machine with a tablet. The
latter part being the basis for the statement from Apple.

My opinion: for folks who don't require KVM, could upgrade to a tablet.
Anecdotally, my Mom no longer uses her laptop, and does her emailing,
youtubing, and photo stuff wholly on a 1st gen ipad. However, her use case is
clearly not yours (or mine).

~~~
craigmccaskill
I ignored mac pros? I specifically called them out as not a valid comparison
given the price point.

First it's hyperbole, which you incorrectly applied now it's confirmation bias
by 'ignoring' something which was not pertinent but I called out anyway. Make
up your mind.

If you want to argue on the internet, there are plenty of other places to do
that, I wish you luck in your sport. However, if you're just going to stick
around and argue equivocation needlessly, that's not something I want to be a
part of.

~~~
balls187
> However, if you're just going to stick around and argue equivocation
> needlessly, that's not something I want to be a part of.

He says, after multiple replies.

~~~
craigmccaskill
Thank you for confirming your motives by ignoring the substance of my
comments.

------
holri
Maybe user of old computers are not poor but:

* Do not suffer from avarice?

* They do not need the newest shiny toy for their ego and to win recognition?

* They don't touch a good running working system?

* They want to save CO2 emissions and noble earths?

* They have a frugal live?

* The know what Eco-sufficiency means?

* They know that consumerism does not make happy?

------
yq
semi-Related:iCar release date rumours, features and images: Apple CEO Tim
Cook comments on Apple Car rumours

[http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/apple/will-apple-make-icar-
pr...](http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/apple/will-apple-make-icar-project-
titan-rumour-roundup-bmw-tesla-tim-cook-3425394/)

Reading related news is interesting. Imagine Apple applies its tactics on
their cars: You probably need a new apple designed plugin other than the
universal one, special tools to change flat tires and/or update the exterior
slightly to market therefore driving a 5-year-old car is sad.

------
jaimex2
There is however something sad about buying products to not look poor.

------
jitendrac
I am using 7 year old pc with single upgrade(motherboard),I have no reason to
buy new!!!! I have no reason to buy any expensive apple laptop or ipad.

------
compactmani
600 million PC users discovered that running a lightweight unix
distribution/DE and not allowing javascript made the life expectancy of their
computers triple.

Or so I dream.

------
jvagner
If your child's school only had 5 year old computers, you'd probably think,
"Huh, it'd be better if this school had newer computers."

------
wedesoft
The e-waste stream and the throwaway consumer culture is what's really sad.

------
SeanDav
I miss my "Turbo" switch that used to be on older PC's. Just press "Turbo" and
your PC is good for another couple of years.

------
facepalm
I can be "not wrong" and sad at the same time. A newer PC would likely be much
faster, resulting in less stress and less wasted time.

------
chasing
I, too, am shocked that a computer company would communicate that their new
computing devices are better than the old ones people already own.

Shocked.

------
agumonkey
\-- sent from my almost perfect 9yo laptop

------
rabboRubble
Hahahahahhahahahahah... my main machine is a Macbook Pro, Mid-2009. Going on 7
years old. Hahahahahahah.

------
justinholmes
My 5 year old PC has a dual socket Xeon I think that beats any iPad rubbish.

~~~
NEDM64
How much battery life dos your PC have?

------
ArenaSource
Last Macbook Pro generation is from 2012... this is really sad, it really is.

~~~
slantyyz
I may not be a fan of Apple any more, but I don't understand how this is sad.

The innards have been upgraded regularly since 2012, and the CPUs and GPUs in
the latest 15" models are pretty competitive to everything else on the market
not counting machines for gamers.

------
bliti
I use a 4 year old MBP. Does that make me middle class then?

------
shanselman
Yikes...My primary PC is 5 years old. Works great.

------
busterarm
Still running a desktop with a Q9650 and 8GB RAM.

Runs fine.

------
kps
My main home machine is an 8-year-old Mac Pro running Snow Leopard. Apple
today sells nothing that could _replace_ it, let alone improve on it.

------
balls187
Apple v PC flame war still lives on.

------
programminggeek
What Phil said worked.

------
snowwrestler
Yes there are things that are sad about it. A 5-year-old PC is probably not
running a recent version of Windows, and has a higher likelihood of being
compromised. And if a person wants a new computer but can't afford it, that is
sad too.

That said, it was an obviously stupid stat for Schiller to cite. But now we're
going to be subjected to a long series of Apple-bashing articles that
overreach in the opposite direction. By the end of today we'll see multiple
"actually, I'm proud to be running 5-year-old PC" posts.

Why? Because when mining for pageviews, there are few veins as rich as bashing
Apple.

Edit to add: If we want to talk about the tech industry and poor people, let's
do so. How many new companies are variations of "let us bring things to your
door for you for an extra fee" or "let's give you personalized service so you
don't have to go shopping/ride a bus/interact with a human"?

~~~
Mikeb85
A 5 year old PC is likely running Windows 7, which still receives upgrades, is
supported, and is quite secure. Of course, all Windows 7 PCs received a free
upgrade path to Windows 10. So there's no reason they couldn't be running the
most recent Windows, without spending a dime.

Of course, they could also be running something like Ubuntu (Linux counter
puts the number at 73 million, W3Counter at 2.58% of all devices, or just
under half OSX's numbers in that counting method), in which case they'd also
likely be running a recent OS, one which is arguably more secure than either
Windows or OSX.

I don't think it's 'offensive' what Schiller says. But it does speak to
Apple's mentality, where planned obsolescence and profit trumps all, and the
faithful buy into it...

