
How a Ban on Plastic Bags Can Go Wrong - jessaustin
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-08-18/how-a-ban-on-plastic-bags-can-go-wrong
======
greeneggs
Klick and Wright have claimed that the San Francisco plastic bag ban leads to
an additional 5.5 deaths in the city annually, the mechanism being food-borne
diseases growing in unwashed reusable bags [1]. I understand that there have
been objections to the research [2], but has it been definitively followed up
on?

[1]
[http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2196481](http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2196481)

[2] [http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/saunders/article/S-F-s-
plastic...](http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/saunders/article/S-F-s-plastic-bag-
ban-may-be-unhealthy-4264075.php)

~~~
kijin
My family has been using reusable bags whenever possible for several years
now, and they do require frequent cleaning.

Bags collect condensation from cold products, which attracts mold. They
collect dirt from raw vegetables and from other surfaces they come into
contact with. (Imagine how the seat of your pants would smell if you rode a
city bus for a week without washing it. American public surfaces are filthy!)
Worst of all, some grocers just can't seem to keep the bottom of milk cartons
and other dairy products clean. A hint of stale milk + condensation + fabric +
time = a perfect recipe for food poisoning.

One problem is that most reusable bags aren't designed for frequent cleaning.
Canvas bags get ragged after only a few cycles of typical washing & drying.
Some bags are built much stronger and heavier, but they need to be hand washed
and thoroughly air dried. I just can't see getting enough uses out of them to
offset their carbon footprint.

~~~
leni536
In Hungary this thing is not uncommon for shopping:

[http://www.kosarhaz.hu/upload/product/44/2001401200004_adxn....](http://www.kosarhaz.hu/upload/product/44/2001401200004_adxn.jpg)

Although mostly the elderly use it. Arguably it's not as practical as a
foldable bag and much more expensive too.

~~~
ArekDymalski
>it's not as practical as a foldable bag

That's why something like this [1] used to be popular in Poland. And I bet
that in Hungary too.

[1]
[http://retro.pewex.pl//uimages/services/pewex/i18n/pl_PL/201...](http://retro.pewex.pl//uimages/services/pewex/i18n/pl_PL/201305/1369989549_by_krzys_500.jpg)

[http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xBJfAPwd83Q/UgZ11_Iw-9I/AAAAAAAACa...](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xBJfAPwd83Q/UgZ11_Iw-9I/AAAAAAAACa0/neRQ5ClHLck/s1600/zmniejszone+\(2\).JPG)

~~~
leni536
I have never seen it in Hungary.

------
gkop
Strangely, the article omits mention of paper bags, which, in the context of
checkout bags, doesn't signal a thorough standard of journalism.

Anyhow, I guess the problem is people are disposing of the re-usable bags too
quickly? Well look at Austin's legislation: they're missing the nominal
mandatory per-bag fee that San Francisco imposed (10 cents). It's not about
the money, it's just how people think: if they must pay for something, they
assign it higher value, and are less liable to throw it away [0] [1]

[0]
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2014/11/13/t...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2014/11/13/the-
surprising-reason-why-those-5-cent-charges-for-plastic-bags-actually-work/)

[1] (HN comments on [0])
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8602502](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8602502)

~~~
vacri
The article's journalism is pretty pick-and-choose. For example, the author
goes through a list of environmental issues that aren't just weight -
biodegradability, animal ingestion, lack of recyclability - but when it comes
to comparing canvas bags, suddenly the only thing that matters is carbon
emissions.

Similarly, it's written as though the policy was a total failure and should be
removed. There's no hint that a modification to the policy could possibly make
it work just fine: adding a stronger public education commitment.

------
xrange
"...This could explain why well-educated, intelligent people, all across the
political spectrum, so often make the unspoken assumption that good intentions
and well-crafted words are sufficient for making good public policy"

[http://jaltcoh.blogspot.com/2015/04/what-are-we-doing-
when-w...](http://jaltcoh.blogspot.com/2015/04/what-are-we-doing-when-we-
teach-fiction.html)

------
ntkachov
So living in austin, I can tell you that the source of these "highly durable
reusable bags" is the local supermarket, HEB. They charge you $.25 per bag
every time you ask for one. $.25 on a single bag isn't a big deal for most
shoppers so, generally, I don't see too many people brining their reusable
bags back in. The upside to this is that you actually have more people walking
out with their groceries in their hands. But I bet that if you were to tell
HEB to start using paper bags like everyone else you would see more paper bags
in the recycler than plastic. Because I literally have not been to a single
other store that sells plastic bags instead of paper ones.

~~~
Chromozon
I remember when the ban first came about, HEB would make you buy the reusable
canvas bags instead of having those heavy duty plastic bags. I don't know why
they switched. Like you said, every other store in town will give you
recyclable paper bags if you forget to bring your own reusables.
Unfortunately, since HEB is the only low cost grocery store in town (besides
Super Targets and Walmarts), their decision to give out an alternative plastic
bag is hurting the effort of the ban.

------
joesmo
"That shouldn't deter the scores of other cities in the U.S. and elsewhere
considering their own plastic bag bans."

Actually that's exactly what it should do. Austin should also repeal its own
ban, at least, in light of the evidence showing that it's ineffective.

~~~
jogjayr
> Single-use plastic bags pose outsized problems in the form of visual
> pollution on the landscape -- South Africans joke that plastic bags are
> their "national flower," due to their propensity to hang on branches -- and
> damage and delays at high-tech recycling centers. (Reusable bags usually
> aren't eligible for recycling, but when they end up at centers by mistake,
> they often wrap around and jam moving equipment.) Single-use bags can also
> pose health hazards to wildlife and livestock -- during a recent trip to
> Dubai, I heard a plastic recycler lament that ranched camels frequently die
> from ingesting the plastic bags that are constantly catching flight in the
> desert wind -- and even when they do wind up at landfills, they take
> centuries to decompose.

If the desirable outcome is to reduce overall usage of plastic bags then
banning them is absolutely the right decision.

The evidence shows that people don't value reusable bags highly enough. Which
is understandable because stores only charge 10 cents for them (at least in
the Bay Area). The solution isn't to repeal the ban: it's to raise the
mandated price of reusable bags to something like $5. Tax undesirable behavior
and it will go down.

~~~
click170
There's an argument to be made that trying to tax undesirable behaviors is a
form of corruption.

If you want to change other peoples behavior I have trouble supporting
something that unfairly penalizes the poor.

~~~
jogjayr
> There's an argument to be made that trying to tax undesirable behaviors is a
> form of corruption.

Yes there certainly can. I won't make it though; I like looking at a plastic-
free environment myself.

> If you want to change other peoples behavior I have trouble supporting
> something that unfairly penalizes the poor.

How exactly does a plastic bag ban unfairly penalize the poor?

I could make the argument that by reducing city trash and recycling costs,
street sweeping costs and the store's costs in providing the bags, the poor
actually benefit overall. Not to mention it's poor neighborhoods, which
typically have more littering, that potentially stand to benefit more from
less waste. Rich neighborhoods can afford to pay for street cleaning out of
pocket if the city doesn't come through; poor ones can't.

EDIT: When you get to the bottom of it, plastic bags impose a negative
externality on taxpayers (in the form of higher city trash costs), businesses
(more littering makes the city less visually appealing) and animals (which get
trapped in plastic bags). People are free to use plastic bags, but there
should be a cost associated with all the negative consequences of this
behavior to everyone else.

~~~
sokoloff
Raising the mandated minimum price of a reusable bag to $5 is what I presume
click170 was saying penalized the poor.

~~~
jogjayr
I meant the mandated minimum price of a reusable bag _at the counter_ should
be $5 (a number I pulled out of the air, with little thought). You do realize
though, that it's otherwise possible to buy a reusable bag for less than $5
right? (Amazon shows me a pack of 10 for $12, or $1.20/bag).

Even most grocery stores sell reusable bags for $1-2 apiece; so in the
overwhelming majority of scenarios people would be paying more than 10 cents
but less than the punitive $5. And by consciously buying a bag (instead of
just saying "Yeah, I'll pay 10 cents for a bag" at the counter), people might
be less likely to throw it out.

~~~
sokoloff
And yet, people will occasionally get "caught out" at a grocery store needing
to buy something without having their bag supply with them.

When that happens to me and you whack me for $5, I grimace a little, but
basically don't care and my kids don't go hungry. If you whack someone for $5
who is poor and buying groceries with an EBT card, they're putting a gallon of
milk back on the shelf to afford the bag. Or, they could ride the bus home,
get their bags, ride the bus back, buy their stuff, and avoid the $4 fine ($1
for the bag and $4 for the convenience fine) at the cost of maybe an hour of
their limited free time.

That's how it hurts the poor. That you or I could buy 10 bags for $12 and keep
them in the trunk of our car so we always have them doesn't help the carless.

You asked how exactly it hurt the poor and I answered that question. I didn't
come here spoiling for a fight over the issue.

------
Spooky23
Feels like a PR piece to me.

Obvious alternative for plastic is Kraft paper, although I'm sure the
retailers would be concerned about the "carbon footprint" \-- just like when
Sam's Club was making a case that polystyrene cups had a lower impact than
alternatives due to truck fuel consumption.

The other big costs are damage to wildlife and infrastructure. A family friend
is a sewer foreman. He has a crew of 3 guys that roam around our little city
clearing drains, sewage pumps and other sewer infrastructure. Anywhere from
40-60% of the clogs are caused by shopping bags. That's a lot of $$, borne by
the taxpayer.

------
TazeTSchnitzel
Here in Scotland, and also nearby in Ireland, we have a plastic bag charge
(around 5p). Immediately after it was introduced, I started taking far less
bags. If it was just two small things, I'd carry them by hand. I'd usually
bring my backpack and put things in there. Only rarely would I buy a bag
(usually when I forgot the backpack).

Net result: I've chucked out far less plastic bags.

~~~
lucaspiller
Ireland (ROI) is a bit different as most shops have completely got rid of the
thin bags, meaning you have to buy the thicker reusable bags. I was living
there just after they introduced the ban and hardly ever rembered to take the
reusable bags (I usually got shopping on the way home from work), so had to
buy a new one each time. The only thing I used the reusable bags for was
storing other reusable bags at home...

I prefer that in the UK you can still get them but you have to pay a small
fee. The thinner bags can be reused in rubbish bins etc and easily stored in
your coat pocket.

~~~
dingaling
> I prefer that in the UK you can still get them but you have to pay a small
> fee

Which is a nice earner for some supermarkets.

For example Sainsbury levy a bag fee on orders delivered to your home, even
though the groceries come in crates which you hand back to the driver. It's
only 40 pence or thereabouts but cumulatively must be considerable.

This annoyed my wife considerably as she always specifies "no bags". When she
complained to Sainsbury they said that this was an averaged fee as their
system couldn't charge specific customers for the bags they received.

So she switched to their rivals Tesco who only charge a fee if you request
bags.

~~~
scottishfiction
The 40p is donated to local charities -
[http://help.sainsburys.co.uk/help/company-values/carrier-
bag...](http://help.sainsburys.co.uk/help/company-values/carrier-bags-
scotland)

------
somberi
Mumbai banned plastic bags and ruled that shops levy a 3 rupee surcharge if
you wanted a plastic bag. For comparison a cup of tea on the street is 7
rupees. Mumbai during the monsoon season faces 3 months of torrential
downpour, and the plastic bags would clog up public drainage systems and was
one of the main causes of small scale urban flooding. Post-banning the plastic
bags, things have changed for the better - significantly so.

Edit: added reference below.

There are many articles around this and one of them is:
[https://books.google.co.in/books?id=KyRzAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA571&lp...](https://books.google.co.in/books?id=KyRzAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA571&lpg=PA571&dq=plastic+bags+monsoon+mumbai&source=bl&ots=e8MQDtbulh&sig=UuP8LAlp-9ITWXagZweZglz8LDU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDQQ6AEwBWoVChMImeO9_ZnDxwIVClmSCh1h2wD_#v=onepage&q=plastic%20bags%20monsoon%20mumbai&f=false)

~~~
mkhpalm
Were plastic bags really the problem in Mumbai? To me, issues like clogging
the drainage system felt like the obvious consequence from so many people
throwing their garbage out into the street.

------
jakejake
They just recently banned the bags here in Chicago. I was disappointed that
when I went to the store today they gave me a thicker plastic bag with "re-
usable" printed on it.

It seems like an idiotic misinterpretation of the entire point of banning
bags. What kind of BS political spin-job have we gotten ourselves into?

~~~
daemin
I guess it means that the particular bag can be used more than once, a handful
of times perhaps, before being thrown out. Not all reusable bags mean
perpetual reuse, some just mean more than once.

~~~
jakejake
I definitely understand that this bag _can_ be reused. I thought the point of
banning bags was so people would bring their own bag, perhaps have to pay a
bag tax or whatever.

I don't see how these bags made it better at all - in fact it's much worse.
The bags will be used (or discarded) exactly the same as the cheaper ones -
it's just wasting 3x the amount of plastic.

It just seems like a policy designed to reduce trash was twisted in it's
interpretation and will actually generate way more trash. It's absurd!

------
tyoma
They recently implemented a similar ban in Chicago. Now stores just give out
thick "reusable" plastic bags. The whole thing has been an all around failure:
it's strictly worse for the environment and consumers indirectly pay for more
expensive bags

~~~
roghummal
It's not a failure if you make plastic bags or you're a retailer.

Do they charge you for a bag in Chicago?

------
imh
I go to a thai place in SF that skirts the ban by using the heavy "reusable"
bags as disposable ones. There's no difference between these and actual
disposable bags other than that they are thicker. They're still small and
worthless to reuse. And there's no chance to ask not to get one.

The problem in my eyes isn't how people use them, it's that the businesses
hand them out in place of disposable bags as if they were substitutes. If we
can't ban them from doing that, then can't we let the plastic bag surcharge be
for the smaller less impactful ones and have the bag fee pay off carbon
credits or something.

~~~
unethical_ban
It's as if one can't legislate away every problem.

------
Zarathustra30
Another issue that nobody talks about: how to pick up dog poop without plastic
bags.

~~~
ptaipale
Well, you don't (hopefully) need a shopping-bag size plastic bag for dog poop.

For dog poo, I buy dedicated poo bags which cost a few cents each and are
biodegradable (and blackened, so you don't need to admire the content as with
clear bags).

Over here (Finland), the shopping bags we use cost 20 cents each. That is not
a tax, but money that the shops collect to their pockets and have thus
conveniently avoided any specific plastic bag tax.

The grocery shopping plastic bags are typically something like 15-20 litres in
volume and can carry perhaps 10 kg of groceries if you're careful. After
carrying home, people often use them for household waste, and then they go
with the contained waste to landfill or nowadays incineration.

Small, thin bags are free (for instance for packing vegetables) but they are
useless for carrying anything in the sense of a shopping bag; they're just
there for cleanly keeping different items apart within a shopping bag.

Myself, I often use a small blue IKEA bag for groceries (when kids were
teenagers, we bought so much stuff that we actually used a large IKEA bag
which might weigh perhaps 30 kg for a week's main shopping round...).

Or a rucksack or a bike bag if I go to shop on the bike. However, if I don't
have one with me, I'm quite happy to get a thinner single-use bag instead of
having to buy yet another more robust bag (of which we have many).

Plastic bags are around 0,2 % of household waste; not very much, but I prefer
to avoid even that if possible.

Fortunately our local Greens finally suffered a complete defeat and we now
have a waste incineration system instead of an ideological system of much talk
about recycling and a landfill (even if the amount of waste we produce is
generally lower than in the US; in most of Europe the figure is somewhere
around 1 kg per person per day; in California it is 2 kg per person per day).

Making a plastic bag takes about 40 % less energy than making a paper bag,
BTW.

------
holman
I don't have strong feelings about a plastic bag ban, but the one thing that
sort of surprised me after living in San Francisco the last few years is that
I take far fewer plastic bags when I have a small number of items. I'll just
opt to carry the few items in my hands instead. It's gotten to the point where
every time I travel somewhere without a bag ban it just feels weird to get
them for free.

Like I said, not something I have strong feelings about either way, but
thought it was interesting that it did change my usage habits.

------
taude
We used to reuse our plastic bags for dog poop bags, for packing lunches, etc.
Now we just have to buy plastic dog bags, etc. And then there's the annoying
thing when I go to buy something small at the store and they have to put it in
a large paper bag.

Also, our reusable bags, especially the ones for lunch get really gross,
really easy. And there's no way I'm getting 130 uses out of it (see article
link)

~~~
tired_man
Eventually the paper bag makers will catch up and you'll see all the bag sizes
I grew up with. There were large bag ("garbage bag" size), and a smaller
version of that, a shorter version of that smaller version, a lunch bag size,
and a penny candy bag (about a cup and half in volume).

I reuse all the plastic bags I get from the market until their shreds. There's
a woodturner who lives on my street that recycles his plastic bags and the
bottle caps from pop bottles into chisel mallets and pen turning blanks.

Paper is a step back, IMHO, but the plastic bags have to go. Too many people
today litter and the things are blowing all over the place.

------
tfandango
I live in a place that will never ban plastic bags and residents often fly
giant flags from posts on their pickup trucks further reducing their fuel
efficiency.

But it seems this is a sort of social game designed to trick people into doing
the "right thing". Would it not be a better solution to mandate use of plant-
based biodegradable bags or just regular old paper bags like in the good old
days?

------
nnain
Last para is sweet -- "Austin deserves to be commended for its candid
assessment of what its plastic bag ban has actually accomplished ... it should
encourage a more thorough and realistic assessment of what such a ban can
actually accomplish"

Just as every other task, as long as the administrators are ready to monitor
and calibrate their approach to environmental policies, good intentions
matters!

------
x0054
Can any one comment if paper bags (with handles) are batter, worse, or about
the same, for the environment?

Also, single use bags do not have to be single use. I collect them and use
them to collect my trash, pick up after my dog, and cover up food in the
fridge. Do people really just come home and toss those plastic bags away? Just
curious.

~~~
Afforess
I'm not an expert, but they are obviously better. Paper decomposes fairly
quickly (in comparison to plastic), and most paper products are made from
paper tree farms, not hardwood forests. In addition, some of the paper used to
make the brown paper grocery bags usually comes from recycled paper, not wood.
Tree farms plant fast-growing trees, and then replant continuously, so the net
effect on the environment of using paper is actually very low. Ultimately, the
net impact of paper bags is the extra CO2 involved in transporting the bags
around during shipment from manufacturing, recycling, and to their
destinations, at grocery chains. This seems low compared to the footprint of
plastic, which is made from oil products.

~~~
x0054
So, the cities that ban one time use bags, why not just legislate the use of
paper bags. I mean, it's a win win, for the consumer and the environment. I
know that reusing bags will always be preferable, but if it's not working
because people keep buying the reusable bags and not reusing them, wouldn't it
be easier to just use paper bags.

~~~
dragonwriter
> So, the cities that ban one time use bags, why not just legislate the use of
> paper bags.

At least the California ban that the plastic bag industry delayed for a
referendum kinda-sorta did this (as to many of the local bans in California).

They _ban_ single-use, no-fee bags.

They _ban_ single-use, plastic bags, regardless of fee, for certain uses by
certain retailers.

They _permit_ single-use, paper bags with a minimum fee, for similar certain
uses by the same certain retailers.

They _permit_ reusable plastic, canvas, or other bags, with specified
durability requirements, with a minimum fee when sold by the entities covered
by the ban on single-use plastic and/or no-fee bags.

------
rch
Boulder stores charge a few cents for bags, but give you the choice to keep or
donate an equivalent credit when you bring your own. The system seems
effective to me.

------
nradov
We used to use free plastic shopping bags as trash can liners. Now we buy
boxes of plastic bags as liners. Net savings of bags = 0.

------
mrlyc
Australian supermarkets have recycling bins specifically for single-use
plastic bags. Don't the U.S. supermarkets have them?

~~~
nradov
Yes many of them do.

