
Workplace Experiments at 37signals - mqt
http://www.37signals.com/svn/posts/893-workplace-experiments
======
alaskamiller
I've been wanting to work 4 day weeks since I got my first desk job. I don't
understand why a 4 day workweek is not more popular. I also don't understand
why more professionals don't work a 4 day block during the weekend.

How much more business can you get when your clients have time off on the
weekend to visit you for taxes, lawyering, medical checkups, dentistry, or
banking or more important for the DMV or court? Why do they insist I take off
a work day or speed through congested traffic to make it to their office by 5?
Why does everyone love to wait 5 days just so they can cram together at the
mall or in the same restaurant?

Why go through the congested highways because EVERYONE is working at the same
time?

Why? Why why why why?

Join in on my revolution my brothers.

~~~
Xichekolas
The problem is that most places want you to work four 10 hour days instead of
five 8 hour ones. Suddenly the deal isn't so attractive.

I worked four 10's for about a year, and I can say that you just get stir
crazy by the end of the day, and you don't get any more/less done than an 8
hour day. If a four day week meant 32 hours, then I could see the benefit, but
to a company, that just says "20% less work will be done." If you try to argue
that the same work will be done, they will ask why you are goofing off 20% of
the time.

As for staggering schedules, I'm with you. It's retarded that we all work at
the same time. I chose my dentist specifically because he was open on weekends
(he takes tuesdays and wednesdays off).

~~~
alaskamiller
Do you measure your work in terms of time or productivity? In a field where
projects are deadlined based, should speed, efficiency, and productivity be
rewarded? Do I really need to be in front of a computer for all my time as
long as the task is accomplished?

Companies are still hiring based on standardized patterns established eons
ago. I had thought all that rah-rah of the dot-com boom would have taught us
about the information revolution and how information workers are different.

~~~
gcheong
Whoa there, surely you're not suggesting something like a "Results Oriented
Workplace", only someplace truly on the cutting edge, like say a big retail
chain would try something that radical ;^):

[http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Careers/story?id=1180149&page=...](http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Careers/story?id=1180149&page=1)

I wonder how the experiment is going...

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tptacek
I think the 4-day work week is genius recruiting. How much more would you have
to offer me to take a job that demanded an entire extra day of my week? How
long until other smart companies start offering this benefit?

And I think they're right: you're going to get the same amount of shit done.
The best developers on our team work round the clock, because they love what
they're working on.

~~~
cstejerean
Next time you apply for a job you can try to negotiate yourself a 4 day work
week. Ask if they're willing to give you a day off in exchange for a 20% pay
cut.

~~~
SwellJoe
I've never worked more than four days a week for any employer other than
myself (usually three, with four and five day weeks popping up occasionally
during big projects). I've always made less money because of it, of course,
but from my very first real job, I've always been officially a "part time"
employee. All of them occasionally asked if I wanted to go full-time...and I
always refused, though sometimes the offers were quite attractive.

I've missed a couple of jobs because of this insistence of mine of not working
five day weeks, but I don't think any of them would have been a particularly
good fit for me, anyway, so no big loss. If the employer isn't a really good
one, other employees could be bothered by one person only working three days a
week, though, so I can understand employers being hesitant to hire someone
with that requirement. And, when I begin hiring, I suppose I'll have to think
about these kinds of issues more seriously.

------
aneesh
It all boils down to this basic principle: a happy employee is a productive
employee!

------
edw519
This thinking is exactly the OPPOSITE of two other very enlightening yc posts:

Here, Warren Buffet says, "Most of the managers at Berkshire have “… no
financial need to work” - this simply means that the people who are working
are working because they love working."

[http://www.pluggd.in/2008/03/startup-entrepreneurial-
lessson...](http://www.pluggd.in/2008/03/startup-entrepreneurial-lesssons-
from-warren-buffet)

In this one, pg says that if someone gave him $1 billion, he'd still be doing
"much the same thing".

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=79057>

So my question is this. If you love what you're doing, why would you want to
do it LESS? And if you don't love what you're doing, then why are you doing
it?

~~~
boredguy8
I think the argument is: they're not working at it LESS, they're just spending
less time sitting at the office. (I find the proposition dubious, I'm merely
pointing out the argument.)

~~~
mightybyte
I agree with the proposition. It's all about not being required to be
somewhere doing something. Even if I would be there anyway, it's still
significant that I have the flexibility that the reduced restriction affords.

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jawngee
Was nobody here in the late 90's?

Every company did crap like this, and well, it didn't stick and it didn't
stick for a reason.

I remember when agencies had masseuses, on-site yoga, almost every agency paid
for "self-improvement" and most had half-day fridays. Not to mention all the
free food, traveling expenses, etc.

It's cool they're doing it, but it's been done before and it didn't really
work out the first time around so I'm not holding my breath expecting success
this time around.

Mod me down if you want, but that was a big thing back in the day and how you
picked which agency you went to work for.

~~~
eb
Google provides many of the services that you mentioned and they seem to be
doing fine. 37signals only has 9 employees, they're very profitable for their
size so I don't see it being a problem.

The key is to hire rockstars-- they produce more value in four days than a
mediocre employee does given weeks. If you gave the typical person free food
and time off. They'd stuff themselves until they got diabetes and spend the
rest of their time watching reruns of 'Room Raiders' on MTV.

~~~
pchristensen
Bingo - you use perks like this to a) make sure your best employees would
never, ever, ever consider leaving, and b) to make sure your next hire is as
good or better than the existing team. If something like this takes you from
being say in the top 20% of places to work to the top 2%, then you can be a
lot choosier about who you hire.

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lowkey
I love the line of thinking here, but please don't try this with you're pre-
revenue cash burning startup. Best wait till you have solid profits, plenty of
users and a nice 'moat' around your business as Warren Buffet would say.

~~~
pchristensen
Yep, _companies_ can do this, but _startups_ still have something to prove.

~~~
Xichekolas
But _companies_ are the only ones married to a five day workweek to begin
with. The only reason you work five weekdays is to seem professional.

At a _startup_ you should work whenever you feel like it (which is hopefully
seven days a week starting at 11pm and going til dawn, with copious amounts of
caffeine and loud music). But if you can get a lot done in four days and it'll
keep you happy, work four days, you don't have any corporate culture to prove
anything to.

~~~
pchristensen
The grandparent comment gives my definition of the difference between a
startup and a company:

Startup: "...pre-revenue cash burning startup."

Business/company: "...solid profits, plenty of users..."

By this definition, most YC companies would be startups while 37signals/Fog
Creek/Google would be companies. Incidentally, Facebook is still a startup by
this definition, despite its size.

So like you say, the startup has to do whatever possible, because as I say,
they're on borrowed time. They onus is on them to demonstrate that their idea
and execution is accepted by the market ("Make something people want"). In a
business with customers, profits, etc, they've done that and it's just a
matter or managing what has been created. When you get to that point
(especially when hiring non-founders), you have room to be flexible.

------
kwilliaa
we've got a 35 hour work week that can be split 4 or 5 (or 4.5 if you'd like
to come in every other Friday...)

a 4 day workweek is like crack - I've got an extra weekend day to get things
done at my own pace. go shopping when no-one else is in the malls, work on
side projects, spend time with family - whatever...

Retention here is waaaayyyyy higher than any other tech job I've worked. It's
easier to put up with the office politics and bureaucracy when you've got an
extra day off.

BTW - Mondays off is better than Fridays off. All the problems and meetings
happen on Mondays while Fridays are normally more laid back and leave you with
time to do work instead of slogging though status meetings and production
issues that occurred over the weekend.

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michaelneale
I think its brilliant, and I wish them well. Much as I sometimes get tired of
37s dogma, if there were more of them, the world would be a better place (and
I am free to unsubscribe from their feed if I wanted to).

If this works, they will talk about this endlessly, which is a great thing.

------
waleedka
During an interesting project with my previous employer, a friend and I both
put 80-hour weeks for a month, even though our manager told us that they can
only pay us for a max of 50 hours a week due to their policies (it was a big
corporation). Still we were happy to do it because the project was
challenging. So when I read that 37signals is reducing their work week it
puzzles me!! If their employees are happy, shouldn't they be staying overtime
anyway? And how can a 5-day week and a 4-day week produce the same amount of
work, unless a lot of time is wasted on non-productive activities?

~~~
comatose_kid
Am I glad that you're not my boss. Please get a clue and read Peopleware (The
"Spanish Theory Management" section applies here in spades).

"If their employees are happy, shouldn't they be staying overtime anyway?" is
precisely the wrong way to look at this.

* If an employee is happy, expecting them to work more hours is probably not the best way to keep them happy.

* Productivity goes down when you spend 16 hours a day at work. Creativity suffers as well.

* Morale goes down when engineers realize that managers are too incompetent to schedule tasks appropriately.

* Morale goes down when engineers realize that managers don't understand that results aren't proportional to face time.

Any hacker aspiring to be an entrepreneur should rebel at being asked to put
in 80 hour weeks for $0. You're not going to do your best work, and your
life/health will suffer. It defies common sense.

~~~
waleedka
You're making the assumption that I'm advocating 80 hour weeks, and then
continuing to argue against it. Maybe I wasn't clear. Expecting employees to
work overtime is obviously not the right approach. Creating an environment
that's so much fun that employees would choose to work overtime is. I like
Google's approach better than 37singals'. Google created a fun environment so
that employees stay longer because the love it, not because they have to.

------
mhb
Why stop with a four day week? Maybe people would be more rested, refreshed
and productive with a three day work week.

You don't know how much is enough until you know how much is too much.

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thingsilearned
I love that they don't take the 5 day a week work schedule as a must do
standard. Why is 5 days a week so standard across both borders and even job
fields?

~~~
mrtron
The power of momentum is an incredible thing.

------
chrisconley
this schedule is coming to the big corps too; i work 4 day work weeks with
wednesdays off at an electric utility companay and it's fantastic

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johnyzee
I'd rather they paid me more and let me decide to do with the money.

So Mark's taking flight classes? Guess what, that comes out of everyone's
salary. So does the extra holiday every Friday, and all those other honey-
traps.

~~~
pchristensen
I'm pretty sure they thought of all this, and I'm pretty sure they're
profitable enough that no one's taking a pay cut to implement these ideas.

From one of the first reply comments by Jason Fried:

"Why not just pay a higher salary instead of ‘funding passions?"

"First, this isn’t really about the money. It’s about encouragement."

"We want to encourage and motivate people to find something interesting to
explore. Most people can spring for their own photography classes, but how
many people actually do it on their own? Most don’t but many would if they had
a bit more encouragement and support."

Someone below that said:

"As far as funding passions, I’m sure there are tax benefits from having your
employer pay."

------
NSX2
I'm in NYC. We have Central Park and lots of Barnes & Nobles and Starbucks and
stuff like that. If I could get the startup I have in mind going ... which I'm
trying to do, just having difficulty finding available tech talent ... hint
hint ... I'd have mandatory random blocks of individual "Go out and walk
around Central Park for a few hours and distract your conscious mind while
your subconscious mind calculates solutions" time and random blocks of group
"Go out to Starbucks, get some fresh air and discuss projects outside the
office for a change of pace." time.

Also weekly company movie viewings - either outings if something good is
playing or good 'ol Netflix.

Our first movie would be Office Space, as a friendly reminder of why starting
your own thing is the best thing to do in life.

~~~
reitzensteinm
Mandatory "go and have ideas" time? Also, Mandatory Fun Day? The flexibility
to go and cruise round the city would be amazing for me (if I got a job). Tell
me that I have to do it, and when, and my reply will be my resignation.

~~~
NSX2
Well, let's say "strongly suggested". But then again in my experience when
this is not mandatory there are always 1-2 "I'll stay in and seem extra
dedicated" people. Then other people start growing roots at their desks. Then
it all falls apart.

Plus think of this way: how many times do you resolve ideas passively in the
shower, out on a walk, picking up dry cleaning/doing laundry, out shopping,
etc.?

There's a reason that happens and just like exercise, if you don't schedule
it, it's easy to let it slide when things get busy.

