
The UK’s points-based immigration system will scare off tech founders - aogl
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/uk-points-based-immigration
======
Zenst
Many non-EU nationals working in the UK, and from those I've spoken with, it
will become a bit easier and fairer for them and with that, all non-uk
nationals as a whole.

Sure, won't be able to underpay people so easily as they have done with EU
nationals and that is a good thing.

But I appreciate that cheap staff is always a boon for any company in whatever
industry, but that's not fair on the people though really.

As for the scare tech founders off aspect, the article seems to slant it's
focus upon European ones and that may well be true, more so as the UK will not
be part of the EU.

Which in effect means that the playing field is fairer for all non-UK
nationals as it removes that EU national privilege.

But let us see how it pans, and would be great to tag an article for review a
year or two later on in which clarity and actualities can replace speculation.

~~~
yardie
As a former non-EU visa holder that was not my impression at all. Cheap
eastern EU nationals is a thing. It's just not a viable thing. What you get is
a bunch of EU nationals recruited from Hungary, Rommania, and Poland who will
work for your underpaying position for 3-6 months. Then, once they qualify for
unemployment benefits they'll leave for a job where the pay is better suited.

This underpaying of EU nationals relies on the naivete of EU nationals, but
people get wise to whats going on fairly quickly.

Finally, the trade works both ways. People weren't just going to the UK for
work. They were also being hired and sent their to facilitate trade with other
EU members.

~~~
Zenst
From the visa aspect, what is your view upon that with the changes - does the
new system seem easier to you for non-EU nationals to actually get a visa?

~~~
yardie
I think there has been a ratcheting up of visa requirements for all non-UK
nationals. The nationalists have successfully quashed immigration from
developing countries first, followed by commonwealth countries, and now
through Brexit EU countries.

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ageitgey
I'm a US citizen in the UK on a visa where I can be self-employed and start
companies. It looks like the new system has basically the same process for
getting this type of visa (which is to say it's still a pain in the ass)
except now EU citizens have to jump through the same hoops instead of just
moving over.

This is going to be a double whammy for the UK tech scene. First, by leaving
the EU, the UK hugely shrinks a company's addressable market and reduces the
incentive for anyone to come here to start a company instead of somewhere with
a bigger market, like the US, Germany, or whatever.

Second, by making it as hard for EU citizens to get a visa to the UK as it is
for them to get one the US, there's going to be a lot less incentive for
people to come to the UK. The UK is a great place to live, but tech jobs here
have a _lot_ lower pay than the US and there is a much smaller tech scene. If
the effort for moving to both is roughly the same, a lot of people are going
to follow the money.

Go into any dev office in London and you are likely to find as many Spanish,
French, etc. developers as British developers. By cutting out that supply of
labor, it's going to get a lot harder to hire developers and there will be
less developers around with ideas who have the legal ability to start their
own company. Maybe that will push local wages up, but maybe it will just
depress the tech scene overall and push more business to other countries.

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joscas
Incorporating a startup in the UK becomes much less attractive after Brexit
because EU markets are not easily accessible anymore. I think EU founders will
take into account this first. If you add paperwork on top of that I don't see
why founders wouldn't just incorporate let's say in Estonia and just travel to
London on a tourist Visa to look for funding if needed.

~~~
Zenst
Spot on - more so Estonia is by far one of the best tech hubs in Europe with
many brilliantly staff that speak English and brexit or not, would be my
choice over London for any EU tech startup brexit or not.

[EDIT ADD] [https://startupestonia.ee/why-
estonia](https://startupestonia.ee/why-estonia) well worth reading that and
shows how Estonia would be the best choice for any EU startup anyhow

~~~
so_tired
Can you give some salaries for hiring tech workers?

2-3 years experience, web front end and/or B2C marketing

~~~
Zenst
I can't as not out there myself, equally you need to factor in cost of living
as 40k a year in a city that costs 20k a year to live is worse of than 27k a
year in a city that costs 5k to live. Then taxes..... many factors.

Equally, front end and marketing are not my area's.

[https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/estonia-front-end-
devel...](https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/estonia-front-end-developer-
salary-SRCH_IL.0,7_IN72_KO8,27.htm) may be of some help for you though.

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cs02rm0
With so few applications, I'm not sure it's a big deal. I'm not sure the UK
really has a Silicon Valley pull factor (I'm aware of what's been dubbed
Silicon Roundabout). Government body endorsement sounds like a terrible idea
for discerning viable startups, but I guess it renders the whole thing
pointless if anyone can apply through the same route.

The changes around how IR35's being addressed seem a much bigger issue to me,
not that even that will affect every startup.

~~~
Zenst
Yes IR35 has been a PITA for contracting in tech for a while and it is about
to get a lot worse come April. Heck, it will near on kill of a lot of
contracting avenues.

That and IR35 effectively treats you as an employee with all the associated
tax aspects and none of the perks - no holiday pay, no sickness pay, other
company aspects.

Which is irksome given how if your building a house instead of software, you
get special NI perks and other aspects....

Sad cruz is that tech is a new trade in the grand scale of things, no unions
or the like that other established industries have and equally - when the
certifications in tech are so dynamic and change each year compared to those
other longer established industries like construction, accounting.... there
are times you kinda feel shafted.

Which is why I got out of contracting last century, then ironically joined a
company working on a project that ended up busting 80 hour weeks and only paid
core hours and the ew contractors we had, well they got their hourly flesh.

But hey, being good at tech, don't mean you're good at business, or indeed
negotiations for remunerations - I know I'm terrible upon the later and sold
myself short too many times. Sure you learn, but it is one of my kryptonite
area's.

~~~
aogl
I'm still a contractor in tech in London. IR35 is, as you said, a real PITA!

The level of change is just quite dramatic, and the returns are not at all
favourable in any comparison.

I have been doing this for a long time now, many many years and have worked on
many projects, in many companies. There is definitely a massive benefit of
flexible and highly skilled developers for companies that need projects off
the ground quickly. I am very interested to see how this single change alters
what many companies are able to push out in the UK post April.

While there appear to still be the potential for Outside IR35 contracts, I
have many colleagues that are sat on the sidelines already, waiting.

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joscas
Any EU citizen wasting time applying for a startup Visa is not focusing on the
right business things and will likely fail.

