

Ask HN: How can I grow this or gain more traction? - famfam

I built http://todoneapp.com/ about 2 months ago. I actually built it for my wife who doesn't work well with normal todo lists. She would have cracks of time in her day between chasing our kid around and I devised this tool to help her maximize use of that time. At its core To-&#62;Done is basically an ultra-minimalistic todo system based around just getting you to do <i>SOMETHING</i> rather than encouraging a meta game of managing todos. It's not really supposed to compete with anything else out there, it's not a "stripped down" RTM or Tada list. It's really just a whole other (new?) kind of system for taking action.<p>Anyway, I got To-&#62;Done featured on the front page of Lifehacker and got about 30,000 visits the first couple days after launch. Two months later, traffic has trickled to a crawl. There are definitely active users that visit it every day, but not a lot of them.<p>I'm wondering what I can do to take this to the next level. It's <i>by design</i> uncomplicated, not a ton of features for you to get lost in, etc. So I'm not even sure what the "next level" means. I'd love to have more traffic and users, but I'm not sure how to bring them in. I don't see a way to make the site viral, since todo lists are inherently private. I'm definitely not going to pay for traditional paid search marketing, since I'm not trying to make any money on the site right now.<p>I really just don't know what to do with it, and wonder if what I built is just inherently ungrowable since it's an application for private actions that has a philosophy of ultra-minimalism. Should I go gung-ho into this somehow or just put out a feature every couple weeks and switch full focus onto the 100 other ideas I have laying around?<p>Thanks!
======
joshwa
Don't bother with a landing page. I'm guessing that most visitors bounce right
off it. Put the functionality on the home page, with a small amount of
explanatory text.

What do you need to do?

<< I need to _____ which will take me _____ <b>Remember</b> >>

When you have some time, tell us how much, and we'll give you something to do:

<< I have ___ available right now. <b>Give me something to do</b> >>

((grayed out until you've entered something above))

Also I'd recommend bolding the important text as indicated above-- users
scanning the page will be able to at a glance exactly what the app offers. The
arrows as buttons feel too much like hierarchical navigation (esp on the top
navbar) and it isn't clear that I should be clicking them).

~~~
famfam
I've definitely seen the light on the homepage thanks to you guys. (BTW, the
bounce rate on '/' is 50% and time on page is 2 minutes. That's actually not
too bad I think. But point is still taken. The homepage looks bad even to me
now.)

I'm not convinced I want to kill the home/landing page. I think it could still
serve a purpose, just with extreme optimization. I could see putting something
actionable on there (entering your first todo). Then of course at the extreme
end is your idea. I'll have to think about this pretty hard. Maybe even A/B
test it.

I think the point about arrows as buttons is a really good one. I haven't seen
any metrics that people aren't acting on them, but I think your intuition is
spot on that you lose these kind of stand-out action verbs that reinforce what
the app is all about. I think I just overdid it on trying to keep the design
"slick" rather than abiding by long-standing conventions.

Thanks for the feedback!

------
sidyadav
I built a service that followed a similar trajectory (memiary.com) a couple
years ago. Here are a few things I learnt which I might help:

\- Some services aren't meant to be taken to 'the next level'. You should
weigh its opportunity and make the appropriate decision. For me, it was to
realize that I'd built something 'timeless' that didn't need next-levelling
and re-iteration, so I chose to leave it like it is and be content with its
2,000+ daily users. I figured I'd spend my time on other things that had a
bigger inherent opportunity than beat a horse that just fundamentally isn't
inclined to go far enough.

\- When it comes to making money, there are 2 basic options services like ours
have: donations and iPhone app. I was lucky to have built a fantastic userbase
from the get-go, so the same people who purchased my iPhone app also have
given around $600 - $700 in donations when I've requested for it. Sure, it's
no major money, but it's enough to support my time and energy and hosting
costs, and I'm content with it.

\- Appreciate your trickled traffic. I noticed today that 2,000 people have
been using my service EVERY DAY for the last 2 years. That means something to
me. Not every service is supposed to be a pageview-generating machine. What's
important to me is that 2,000 people take the time to go to my website and
write down their private thoughts every day. I'd rather have this than 10,000
meaningless pageviews from Google.

~~~
famfam
Thanks for the perspective. I think I want to get to a point where you are. I
don't harbor any delusions that this could ever be a quit-your-day-job
enterprise or even a real supplemental income. I think I would really like to
just get it up to a healthy level of use and then maintain. Just build
something and get the satisfaction of having people use it. Learn some lessons
that I can put towards something even bigger (and more financially viable :)
But I'm an order of magnitude off of 2000 daily users right now. That's the
next level I want to figure out how to get to.

Your site looks cool. It's kind of funny, because I actually had a very
similar idea about diarying (kind of inspired by Keel's Simple Diary), and
it's one of the ideas I was considering bringing off the shelf. It was
definitely much more social and amenable to virality than To->Done. :)

------
mattchew
Apparently, the collective unconscious is crying for 20 million web-based todo
lists, rather than the 10 million we have already. I say this because I'm
working on one too. :)

> It's by design uncomplicated, not a ton of features for you to get lost in,

There may not be a ton of features, but there is an awful lot of "talking"
involved before the user gets down to business. I agree with others that you
need to minimize this or get rid of it completely. Get to the action ASAP. See
Joshwa's comment.

> I really just don't know what to do with it, and wonder if what I built is
> just inherently ungrowable

I'm sure you can grow it if you really want, but how much do you want to? It
seems like your enthusiasm is already waning. Nothing wrong with letting it
coast and seeing what happens. Maybe you'll get excited about it again later.

Or, you can dig in and try to market it. Here's an idea I had for my app which
you're welcome to use. Let users link their todo list to Facebook, and then
automatically post a huzzah to their wall when they complete something. In
general, I think your idea that todo lists _must_ be inherently private is
wrong, and making privacy the exception rather than the rule might open up
some "viral" possibilities.

Anyway, good luck. :)

~~~
famfam
Heh. Well, I think everyone works differently, and everyone finds a different
"zone" in various todo apps. You know, they feel right or they don't. So us
todo app developers shall not rest until every user class is accommodated :)

What's funny is that I thought I had boiled down the homepage to a succinct
"sell" explaining the app. But looking at it now, I see that it definitely
looks like a "features" page and not a landing page. And there is no reason I
can't have an actionable form on the homepage. Still, I have a _traffic
driving_ problem, and my homepage optimization problem is secondary. But I
think you guys have helped me lift the cloud I was in thinking the front page
looked okay. It's actually starting to repulse me now, heh.

I know anything can be grown, and I will admit that my enthusiasm is waning,
but I think it's because I'm recognizing right now that the main way I have to
grow this is by just bombarding productivity/lifestyle bloggers about it. I
KNOW that's necessary, and I would feel motivated about it if this was a
"business". But it's not, and it's hard to drum up the fire to put on my
marketing hat. I was hoping for more of a 2nd order effect from Lifehacker
(e.g. smaller bloggers picking up the story and then blogging on their own)
but it didn't really happen.

I think you're right that I'm wrong about todo lists being inherently private.
I'd like to think of something more clever than wall-spamming, maybe
achievements or levels etc, so even if you don't share, you still are playing
a metagame by yourself on the site which may make it more sticky. Or keeping a
history of what you've done so you can feel good about it in the afterglow.
Something like that. But I do need to focus on virality, not stickiness.

Thanks for the good response!

------
petervandijck
I think you can improve by design & copywriting. There's too much text on the
homepage for such a simple tool. Can you explain it in 1 sentence? Spend a few
hours mangling a sentence together. That's one.

Second, focus on talking to the few users you have, see what they like/don't
like. Even while keeping it minimal, I am reasonably sure you can still
improve the experience a lot. Don't add features, but polish polish polish. Is
the entry field perfect. Can it be faster? Etc..

Once you do that, and once you start to hear feedback that your users _really_
truly love it, then you can start worrying about promoting it :)

In other words: it's not because you want to keep it minimal that you're done.

~~~
famfam
Great points. I've seen the light on the homepage thanks to HN. I need to
decide if I want to forego the homepage altogether, just revise it, or somehow
merge it into the todo page. Copywriting is not my strong point, but I think I
can edit. I'll definitely really try to optimize this.

On the second point, I'm a user of the app myself and haven't found any pain
points. I'm not really hearing about pain points from users either. It's
really just new features people seem to want. But I do think I need to think
about how I can incorporate these ideas into a framework of simplicity -- not
just discount the ideas outright as a perversion of my vision :)

------
thelonecabbage
Perhaps the indication is that your app isn't as generally appealing as you
thought?

Have you received any feedback on "missing" features? Done any measurement of
what aspects your existing userbase does use?

~~~
famfam
I definitely don't think the app is generally appealing. I don't expect that
it could replace a normal "todo" system for all people. It's nichey for sure.
But there's definitely a subset of people that this system resonates with. The
hard part is finding more of those people. I guess it's true of any niche.
There may be thousands of coins laying in the sand, but how can I possibly
scale finding them all? People (personalities) that may benefit from the tool
don't know to look for it, and it's not like something you would share with
all your friends (e.g. viral). Thus, I don't see how to grow it.

Feature wise, we're using Get Satsifaction, and have had a decent amount of
feedback. Most common features are things like making apps (mobile/desktop),
APIs or integration (e.g. with RTM) -- these things make sense. Then there is
another class of feedback which is like "add priorities" "let me see my tasks"
"add recurring tasks" etc. These don't make any sense to me because there are
already apps that perfectly fulfill those needs if people have them.

Measurement wise, I'm only really tracking "active" users (and tasks
entered/completed etc). There's just so little to do, that I don't know if
there is any action to take based on it. Anyway, the bigger problem is
traffic. Only ~30% or so of my traffic are new visitors. It's really just
beginning to boil down to a group of dedicated users and no traffic driving
for new visitors.

~~~
mgkimsal
"These don't make any sense to me because there are already apps that
perfectly fulfill those needs if people have them."

Obviously not. Those other apps don't offer the simplicity and UI experience
that yours does. What you're offering is resonating with some people, but they
want what you have right now _plus more_. People are telling you this, and
you're just telling them to go away and use another tool? Your prerogative,
but you're asking how to take this to the 'next level', and your users are
already telling you how - you don't need to ask HN.

~~~
famfam
I think the right answer is somewhere in the middle. I've worked at several
companies that catered to every voice in the crowd, and the product gets
pulled in a hundred directions. I have some semblance of a vision, and some of
these ideas are antithetical to that vision. I think part of the reason that
the UI is simple, is because of the minimalism and rejection of bells and
whistles.

But you're right that I should not discount these things out of hand. I have a
blank slate and it may be possible to incorporate the things that i think are
relevant in a new and unobtrusive way. e.g. in a way that may only be visible
to power users. For example, one feature request I _do_ agree with is the idea
of contexts, e.g. @work, @home, @school, etc. I think it makes perfect sense.
I was thinking I could allow people to use @ tags in their task description
(e.g. "Mow the grass @home"), then in the "give me something to do" section
add a "at [dropdown]" that only appears if they've entered location-sensitive
tasks. That way, the feature only adds complexity IF you want to use it.

Great food for thought. Thanks.

------
pierrefar
Two ideas:

1\. Mobile phone apps. With something like PhoneGap you should be able to do
this relatively quickly.

2\. For every new registered user, add a to-do item that they need to tell
their friends about the app, giving it 5 minutes. This might work but
regardless, I hope you think creatively about marketing it and getting your
users to market it for you.

~~~
famfam
1 - yep, no brainer. Definitely thinking PhoneGap too.

2 - this is a brilliant idea. You're hired! :) Funny thing is, I had thought
about injecting pseudo-todos, but they were more like funny/inspirational/zen
things - like "don't worry about anything right now... just close your eyes"
It had never occurred to me to use that idea to market the app. :)

------
famfam
Clickable link: <http://todoneapp.com/>

------
webwright
How many of those 30k visits signed up? How many were still using it a week
later?

You might have learned that your assumptions about what people want were
wrong. I would bombard every user who signed up and quit with a personal
sounding, "Hey, I'd love to hear your thoughts on why this isn't the right to-
do list tool for you."

But yeah, you're hitting the wall that most web app makers hit. The site
doesn't market itself (most don't unless they are designed for virality or
SEO). If you don't want to self educate about marketing, then I'd put a bullet
in and make sure your next idea has some built-in marketing juice.

~~~
famfam
In the first 3 days there ~1100 signups and ~3200 unsigned up people (no email
address captured) who actually created todos. (You don't need to signup for
our system to begin to play with it...) Active users is something I just
started capturing recently, so I'll probably need to let it run for a few more
days to see whose visited in the last week (seems like a reasonable definition
of 'active')

I've definitely thought about nudge emails. I'll definitely do it if I decide
to press on with this maybe after I add a few new features that might interest
people.

I'm not averse to performing or educating myself about marketing, but like I
said, I don't know if I could give it my all when I know that the site is
likely not financially viable. I guess if I decide to continue I'll just have
to see what social juice I can squeeze out of it.

Thanks :)

------
stoney
A good way of enticing new users could be to build a bit more of a story/value
proposition around your overall approach/system (versus the tool/app - I'm not
looking for tools, I'm looking for solutions).

Maybe you could write a couple of articles about your system, how you might
use it, why it's better than other systems and who it will work well for (or
maybe an ebook would work). Then use the description of your overall time
management system/apporach to lead people into your tool.

------
benofsky
The front page is your primary problem, I have no interest in reading that
much text when I visit a website I haven't visited before (and will leave
pretty quickly). You need big text, screenshots, videos, demos, short precise
bullet points. Look at things like <http://basecamphq.com> or even
<http://www.rememberthemilk.com/> for good product home pages.

~~~
famfam
If anything, this thread has made me come to realize my homepage sucks.
Totally agree. I actually do find basecamp/rtm homepages kind of, uhh, spewy,
but they're still far better than mine. I'm definitely going to reconsider the
homepage. (Either toss it altogether or make it a lot more
concise/engaging/etc)

------
fabiandesimone
I actually love the concept! I think this approach could be a very powerful
tool for the usual procrastinator. I'll give it a spin for a few days and let
you know.

Any email I can contact you?

~~~
famfam
Glad to hear you might be able to use it! You can reach me at
support@todoneapp.com

------
whimsy
"So please go head and login→ or register→"

"So please go ahead" <\-- The A is important.

Also, the yellow is kind of obnoxious to me; I would prefer a green or blue.

------
Cmccann7
try KISSinsights to poll your audience on if you should add features, what
would they be, etc?

We used KISSinsights on HelpaStartupOut.com to help us pick the best
categories, add additional ones, and remove the non useful ones. We're still
in the learning stage but its good to get user input in shaping your product
and figuring out how they actually use your product

~~~
famfam
Nice. I wasn't aware of KISSinsights actually, just KISSmetrics (where I'm
still waiting patiently for entry into their beta). Thanks!

BTW: I'm glad you self-plugged because it seems like I could use
HelpaStartupOut.com - maybe not for this but for other ideas. Frankly I'm
surprised we don't have more partnering up on HN...

------
awa
Clickable: <http://todoneapp.com/>

------
android1
Can you monetize via apps? Seems like an obvious way to go.

~~~
dpcan
Agreed, get it on the Android and charge out of the gate. Maybe have the web
version be free and entice people to buy it on Droid or iPhone???

It would be like using the web to get the eye-balls, and the devices to make
the money.

~~~
famfam
Yeah, Droid momentum is picking up for sure. I don't think a Droid app would
be too much work, so I'll probably build one.

------
starkfist
It's not that great. You just got lucky with Lifehacker. The world doesn't
need another web todo app. You should move on to something else.

~~~
famfam
Lifehacker was not luck. It was my calculated hard launch/PR event. I didn't
expect more than a one time blip. My problem is that I had no real follow-up.

~~~
pdx
You were on lifehacker? How did you do that? I've never had any luck getting
them to write about anything I did.

~~~
famfam
Yeah - [http://lifehacker.com/5515338/todone-assigns-you-tasks-
based...](http://lifehacker.com/5515338/todone-assigns-you-tasks-based-on-
your-available-time)

Okay, maybe I did get lucky. All I did was email one of the editors.

------
pinksoda
I visit the page and have no desire to use it. It is very unappealing.

~~~
famfam
Fair enough. Front page (whose criticism I agree with for sure), or the entire
app?

