
As US Passports for Domestic Flights Loom, IRS Can Now Revoke Passports - complius
https://www.world.tax/articles/as-us-passports-for-domestic-flights-loom-irs-can-now-revoke-passports.php
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patio11
Not going to happen. That would shut down air travel. The TSA will not be
allowed to shut down air travel.

The TSA isn't even allowed to blanket ban people from traveling without ID
documents in the status quo. (Surprised? [https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-
screening/identification](https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-
screening/identification))

~~~
Grue3
Every other country requires passports for air travel. We're doing fine.

~~~
beeboop
I am not sure how true this is, but even if it were, I would assume you're
largely referring to European countries, where the nature of air travel is
very different. In most of Europe you cannot get on a plane and fly in any
direction for more than an hour or two and _not_ wind up in a different
country. Hence people who fly are overwhelmingly going to have a passport _if_
it's needed (especially if you factor in that many European countries have
excellent high speed rail for intra-country travel), and therefore this
barrier is not much of an issue.

~~~
ovi256
Meanwhile, in this universe, travel inside the Schengen area (which covers an
impressive chunk of Europe) does not require a passport, but any kind of
national ID, regardless how many borders it crosses. Coincidentally, it's the
same as for internal air travel.

~~~
beeboop
I guessed as much, thanks.

------
jonnathanson
_" The Real ID Act created a national standard for state-issued IDs. Some
states initially refused to comply, fearing that the federal government would
make a national database of citizens."_

Aren't Social Security numbers precisely that already? Not asking this
question facetiously. Genuinely curious as to the distinction here.

I just generally assume the federal government has a database of citizens, and
perhaps several databases. Not stating a political opinion on this one way or
the other; just saying that it seems laughably naive to assume they don't, or
that they don't already have the means to create one.

~~~
Jtsummers
In theory, yes. Though SSNs aren't unique. Which was a problem for me, though
I guess the other holder of my SSN has passed since I haven't had any issues
in years.

~~~
jonnathanson
They're not unique? Jesus. I really had no idea. That seems...suboptimal, to
say the least. So basically you need to do a vlookup every time you want to
know who any given SS is in any particular circumstance. Huh.

So ironically enough, this means that social security numbers _require_ a
database of citizens in order to be useful identifiers. Unless I'm missing
something here.

(On the flipside, I suppose you could argue that unique SS ids would be a lot
more vulnerable to security risks.)

~~~
Jtsummers
The first 3 represent the location the SSN is issued in. The next 2 are some
sort of group identifier. Last 4 are a serial number, issued sequentially.
Keeping in mind that they're 9 digit numbers (1 billion possibilities) and the
area portion restricts it to 6 digits, the odds of collision are reasonably
high. Basically, if more than 1 million people are assigned SSNs in the same
"area", you _will_ have a collision. More area numbers are assigned to
mitigate this, but there's still a chance.

[http://www.usrecordsearch.com/ssn.htm](http://www.usrecordsearch.com/ssn.htm)

Has some details on the structure of social security numbers.

EDIT: Also, even if they were issued as unique serial numbers from the start,
once we exceed a total population (not living, but _dead and living_ ) of over
1 billion assigned social security numbers, we'd have had collisions anyways.

~~~
peterwwillis
That was before 2011. Since then they assign numbers randomly.

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furyg3
> The Real ID Act created a national standard for state-issued IDs. Some
> states initially refused to comply, fearing that the federal government
> would make a national database of citizens.

The US is a weird place...

~~~
jdmichal
Indeed. I'm not quite sure why people think the government doesn't already a
"national database of citizens" between social security (theoretically
assigned to every citizen) and taxes (ties SSN to address yearly).

~~~
furyg3
For sure, and on a more philosophical level, I would think that 'knowing who
her citizens are' would be on the shortlist of things a nation-state does.

~~~
jschwartzi
Yeah, but there's knowing that a person named John Smith is a citizen, and
knowing that John Smith lives at 123 Maple Way in Sometown, State, that he is
currently an organ donor, that his face is a partial match to faces sighted at
at least 3 crimes, that he flew out of the country 14 times last year, and
that he currently owes $43,578 in back taxes as a result of some unreported
contracting work.

The latter kind of knowing is what we're afraid of, especially the database of
faces.

~~~
furyg3
To be honest, nearly all of that sounds perfectly reasonable information for
the federal government to have. Trusting the card being presented to you by
the person making the identity claim is a fundamentally flawed idea that has
always been mitigated with technology (stamps, seals, holograms, etc) which is
all now irrelevant. You tell me you're "John Smith", I look it up. Even
current forms of ID use biometric data (a photo & DOB) to validate the claim.
I would certainly hope the government would know that John has left the
country X times and owes Y in back taxes, as that's their job to know. Address
and organ donor status are IMHO silly things to put on an ID card, (you don't
need to live somewhere to be John, or have decided what your organ donor
status is), but don't strike me as dangerous things for the federal government
to know.

How this information is disseminated within the federal government or between
states sounds like an excellent debate to have, as does the discussion about
due process for suspects... but 'should the government be able to know who
it's citizens are' is a silly one.

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bickfordb
How does checking someone's ID make an airport more secure? Either you can
screen for weapons or you cannot.

~~~
imglorp
I get the impression it is not at all about security but security theater, as
Bruce Schneier would say.

It makes the govt appear to be doing something against a perceived threat.

But more importantly, it acclimates people to needing permission to travel and
being observed while they do so; to being accountable to the government
instead of having the government being accountable to the people; and to
having a police presence in the most mundane aspects of their life.

We've seen this before in history and it didn't end well.

~~~
mikeash
Follow the money.

ID checks prevent people from reselling airline tickets. That allows the
airlines to make more money from change fees and abandoned tickets. Making the
security people do the checks allows the airlines to look innocent in this.

~~~
imglorp
I agree there's multiple interests aligned, as always, in the airline case.

But we're also seeing TSA involvement on the street, at sporting events, train
stations, and other seemingly useless places. The assertion about police state
desensitization remains...

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gallerytungsten
Shades of the Soviet Union, which required passports for internal travel.

~~~
mikeash
Except that in the USSR the checks existed because many people simply weren't
allowed to travel, you can still take other modes of transportation without a
passport, and this passport requirement has a roughly zero chance of actually
happening.

I'm no fan of the airline security apparatus, but let's be realistic.

------
philipov
Isn't this against the constitution? I thought not restricting interstate
travel and avoiding a Holy Roman Empire situation was part of the reason for
having a federation.

------
callahad
ID requirements _are_ changing, but there will be options other than US
Passports or Real ID for domestic travel.

I live in Minnesota, a state which does not comply with Real ID, and which
specifically passed legislation prohibiting compliance with Real ID [0]. There
was a lot of sabre-rattling about this from the federal government last year,
and the reaction is generally overblown.

First, stating that "passports may be required" is misleading. Many documents
are acceptable for domestic travel, including "Enhanced Drivers Licenses,"
Global Entry / NEXUS / SENTRI cards, and others [1]. An EDL costs an extra $15
in Minnesota, while membership in a Trusted Traveler Program like NEXUS is $50
/ 5 years (which, incidentally, includes both PreCheck and Global Entry, each
of which is more expensive.)

Second, the TSA explicitly states [2] that all state-issued IDs will be
acceptable until January 22nd, 2018, and that non-compliant states may be able
to get extensions until October 1st, 2020.

Third, after October 1st, 2020, travelers must present "a REAL ID-compliant
license _or_ another acceptable form of identification," per the list in [1].
It's not Real ID, Passport, or nothing.

[0]:
[https://www.revisor.mn.gov/laws/?year=2009&type=0&doctype=Ch...](https://www.revisor.mn.gov/laws/?year=2009&type=0&doctype=Chapter&id=92)

[1]: [https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-
screening/identification](https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-
screening/identification)

[2]: [https://www.tsa.gov/travel/frequently-asked-
questions#realid](https://www.tsa.gov/travel/frequently-asked-
questions#realid)

------
tedchs
Linked article is a poorly written conspiracy theory.

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emodendroket
This has to be like the fourth extension of the deadline now. I'm not entirely
convinced they're ever going to follow through.

------
supercanuck
Debts of $50,000 of more.

Sounds like rich people problems to me.

~~~
LanceH
$50k in taxes can be a surprisingly low threshold. If you run a retail
business you might do a couple million in sales to clear $100k for yourself. A
simple misclassification of your labor or materials can put you $50k in debt
to the IRS. In the scheme of how much money passes through a small business
owner's hands, $50k isn't a lot of money even if $50k income is.

I had someone classify some non real property purchase from me as a service
(personally taxable). I had completed all tax forms correctly. The IRS had
accepted the taxes I paid on the profit of the property. But the people I sold
it to claimed it was a service, so the IRS thought I had $15k income that I
hadn't reported. I wasn't anywhere near the $50k mark (closer to $5-6k), but
all it took was one person claiming something sketchy to make me delinquent in
the eyes of the IRS, even when I had done my taxes correctly.

~~~
mikeash
Note that the law requires far more than just being delinquent. You have to be
to the point where you've failed to work out any sort of payment plan and
they're filing liens, and it excludes any case where there's a pending hearing
on the matter.

~~~
LanceH
True enough. I was just trying to make the point that hitting a $50k threshold
may be difficult for someone on a W2, it can come up pretty quickly for
someone scraping by if they employ anyone or sell anything.

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leojg
But isn't it the land of freedom? Is easier for me to travel to most countries
of south america than for an us citizen to travel inside his/her own country.

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hathym
Soon you will not be allowed to breath without a passport, what a fu __up
world!

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throwaway21816
>Passport for domestic flights

And now the airlines will get even less money

~~~
Jtsummers
Except the headline is wrong. TSA is, as a consequence of the REAL ID Act,
going to require REAL ID compliant IDs in 2018. These are predominantly state
issued identification cards (typically a drivers license). Passports are an
alternate, valid ID.

~~~
vijayr
How does it work for foreigners (aka "aliens" \- what a weird term) living
here?

~~~
callahad
Permanent resident cards, foreign passports, and many other documents are
accepted in addition to Real IDs: [https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-
screening/identification](https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-
screening/identification)

------
PaulHoule
No problem for me, New York has been issuing Real ID's for a long time, it is
nice to have a driver's license that is good for Mexico and Canada. Much
cheaper and useful than a CLEAR card.

~~~
ececconi
It's not just the Real ID that makes you able to go to Mexico and Canada
without a passport. It is that the ID is an 'Enhanced Driver's License.'
Currently this only applies to licenses issued in Connecticut, Michigan,
Minnesota, New Jersey, New York, South Dakota, Vermont and Washington.

Florida is Real ID compliant, but not an Enhanced Driver's License, so you
cannot use it to cross international borders. For that, I use a passport card.

~~~
fluxquanta
>Currently this only applies to licenses issued in Connecticut, Michigan,
Minnesota, New Jersey, New York, South Dakota, Vermont and Washington.

I can only speak for New York, but it's actually a bit of a pain and an extra
cost to get the enhanced license here. The only reason I did it is because I
live on the Canadian border and always carry my license but rarely carry my
passport. Now I can take an impromptu trip up to Canada without worrying if I
have the right ID on me. Plus, I seem to get less border hassle when the agent
sees the address on my license is only a couple miles away.

But for someone living downstate it would make little sense to spend extra
money and spend more time at the DMV for an enhanced license.

~~~
ececconi
Pretty cool. I usually have a passport card and an extra wallet in my bag for
if things get stolen (another debit card to a different account, other credit
cards, etc). I've never actually used it, but I'm on a flight twice a week.

