
The risk to children of tech over-use - cmsefton
http://uk.businessinsider.com/screen-time-limits-bill-gates-steve-jobs-red-flag-2017-10
======
andrepd
I wouldn't say the problem is tech overuse; more specifically it is _internet_
overuse. Offline is fine, in fact many probably many people have fond memories
of tinkering with computers when they were younger, and many even became
programmers or similar because of playing with computers when they were young.
It is often a very stimulating activity.

However the internet is a completely different beast. Some thought must be had
about whether it is desirable for children to have unfettered access to a
medium that puts them in touch with anyone in the world, and most importantly
in the net of today, puts them in the targets of hyper-optimized manipulation
and advertisement campaigns, and websites and services designed to manipulate
your psyche no matter the side effects (e.g. depression from using social
media), in order to get you to buy more stuff.

New technology isn't automatically good because it's new technology. We must
have these debates.

~~~
0xcde4c3db
> most importantly in the net of today, puts them in the targets of hyper-
> optimized manipulation and advertisement campaigns, and websites and
> services designed to manipulate your psyche no matter the side effects (e.g.
> depression from using social media), in order to get you to buy more stuff

I think this is the bulk of the problem. There's nothing in the technology to
say that that a website or game _must_ bend over backwards with "engagement"
bullshit and microtransaction teases instead of just being a good
reading/playing experience. It's a socioeconomic and cultural problem, and
blaming the technology isn't going to solve any of it.

~~~
jsonne
The problem is that internet advertising as a model for 99% of companies
(Facebook, Google, and a handful of others making it work being the
exceptions) is fundamentally broken. When you're a media company you
fundamentally trade on people's attention and advertisers pay you to get a
piece. You can do that with great content, or with dark patterns and
manipulation. Usually its some combination of both. Regardless the vast
majority of the web needs a new business model, but I'm not sure what the
answer is.

------
junkscience2017
The big problem in my mind is cutting kids off from their peers. If I kick my
son off his gaming laptop, he will be cut off from socializing with his
friends. For better or worse, they all hang out and chat while gaming. Sure I
would love it if they were all out riding bikes, but alas.

Same with my daughter. If I take away her phone, she becomes isolated from her
peers because sadly they mostly communicate through Snapchat.

Even other things they might do like sports ends up creating electronic
baggage. My daughter plays soccer, so she ends up talking about things said on
the soccer team group chat.

I have basically lost the fight and so have all the other parents of teens I
know. I now dread weekends and holidays because I know my kids will be on
screens continuously and the arguments to derail them are even more damaging
to home life.

There are a few local kids who are mostly gadget free due to parental
control...and I predict they will fail out of college because once they are
away from home, they will gorge on screens and ignore school.

Every enlightened, educated parent I know who set about controlling tech has
failed miserably.

~~~
utefan001
I wrote my response previously. See link.

[https://twitter.com/DnsLearningOrg/status/919058340168306688](https://twitter.com/DnsLearningOrg/status/919058340168306688)

Referenced time line..
[https://dnslearning.org/img/myTimeline.html](https://dnslearning.org/img/myTimeline.html)

~~~
utefan001
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14913547](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14913547)

------
tarr11
There's a lot of social pressure for high tech parents to appear as if they
limit their children's technology use. Parents are not particularly
forthcoming about their children's technology use. I suspect that many parents
don't actually know how many hours a day their children are interacting with
technology.

Perhaps this story about Bill Gates is being spun a bit to serve a particular
goal? For example, here's a picture of Bill Gates' son with a mobile phone.[1]
He says his child didn't "receive" a phone until he was 13. That doesn't mean
he didn't "use" one.

"Asked if he keeps passwords to his son and daughters' email and Facebook
accounts, Mr Gates said that he doesn’t for Jennifer, 16, who he describes as
'independent'.

He admitted that monitoring online activity is 'a very tricky issue for
parents now.'

Also, Can anyone link to the original study referenced here? I can't seem to
find it.

"Research has found that an eighth-grader's risk for depression jumps 27% when
he or she frequently uses social media. " Googling leads me back to a bunch of
other pages, with no references.

Here is an alternative take on Jean Twenge's thesis with some criticism of her
conclusions [2]

[1] [http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2270869/Bill-
Gates...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2270869/Bill-Gates-
Billionaire-opens-strict-parenting-rules.html)

[2] [https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/once-more-
feeling/20170...](https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/once-more-
feeling/201708/no-smartphones-are-not-destroying-generation)

~~~
vanderZwan
> "Asked if he keeps passwords to his son and daughters' email and Facebook
> accounts, Mr Gates said that he doesn’t for Jennifer, 16, who he describes
> as 'independent'.

I mean, honestly, I am very much about giving children their privacy, but when
I have children I don't know how I feel about letting them on the internet
unsupervised until they're twelve or so. Not to snoop on what _they_ are
doing, but because I don't trust what the internet is trying to do to _them_.
There is so much active exploitation and manipulation going on. Not just from
malicious individuals trying to get your credit card data, I mean that the
most popular platforms themselves are Skinner boxes algorithmically optimised
to make you click and consume more. James Bridle had an excellent article
about that a few weeks ago, in which he called this "infrastructural
violence", and I don't think that is an exaggeration[0]. and children are
still innocent in the sense that they are not aware or capable of
understanding these tactics. I want to be able to intervene until they are
independent enough to judge those things on their own.

For off-line usage it's a very different story.

[0] [https://medium.com/@jamesbridle/something-is-wrong-on-the-
in...](https://medium.com/@jamesbridle/something-is-wrong-on-the-
internet-c39c471271d2)

~~~
snuxoll
This is why I pre-emptively set up WPA2-Enterprise on my wireless network and
replaced my EdgeRouter X with a VM running Sophos XG.

I just ordered parts to build myself a new PC, my 5 year old will inherit my
old rig as her first real computer. Any device connected to the network with
her profile automatically triggers the Sophos VM to enable filtering
(including HTTPS) for that client, so I can give her access to basic
educational sites and games without worrying too much about the big bad
internet and what a child with unfettered access could run across.

Even when she hits her teenage years she isn’t going to get totally
unsupervised access, adolescents deserve some privacy but not at the cost of
their safety - I made plenty of mistakes online when I was younger and want to
ensure I can help her avoid them (especially given how social media loves to
deanonymize you).

~~~
junkscience2017
Your daughter soon won't care about your PC, PCs are for old people. She will
be on her phone using LTE. If she can't get that, you will have arguments so
loud the neighbors will look out their windows. I was once in your shoes,
prepare for defeat.

~~~
snuxoll
She loves using my Wacom tablet, so I’m going to install my Corel Draw license
on her machine - not to mention she loves playing Minecraft and wants to play
all the mods and custom maps she’s seen on DanTDM’s YouTube channel. She may
not use it as heavily as I did with my PC when I was younger, but even I make
frequent use of my iPhone and iPad for some casual tasks these days.

------
ThomPete
I have two boys 4 and 8.

We both have limits and then things I don't want them to do.

Whats' ok:

Play games, watch a tv-series, movies, learn

Whats not ok:

Watch someone else playing, watch some family opening up a toybox, i.e.
everything where someone else is doing the work for you.

We are fairly liberal. They are allowed to binge watch once in a while, other
times even though we have a whole weekend we don't allow them to use our ipads
or phones.

They both love being outside and play every day at the play-ground.

My primary guideline is to look for whether they prefer computers to playing
with others.

For now it's not been a problem and I don't believe there is any right amount.

~~~
gilbetron
What's the issue with "watch someone else"? I have an 8 year old, and I don't
have issues with it - in moderation. Watching other people play games has
taught him how games are played.

As my mom taught me: you need to find balance. After an entire day at school
with almost no screen time, and lots of social interaction and learning, I'm
ok with him coming home and sitting in front of a screen. Assuming his
homework and chores are done. He also has lots of after-school activities
(martial arts, basketball, right now).

Mostly I think he is growing up in a world deluged in screens and information
and propaganda flowing at him, and he needs to learn how to swim in it.

~~~
cyberpunk0
Why are you okay with someone milking your child's attention for profit?

~~~
junkscience2017
Found the non-parent! Hey we all started out in the same place, coming home
from the hospital with our bundles of joy...envisioning a future when our kids
are either curled up in a corner reading "Godel, Escher And Bach" or
disassembling a motherboard for fun... unfortunately your retrospective
fantasy childhood is not what your child actually wants, and by time the teen
years hit, you have lost dictatorial power

~~~
ThomPete
I personally don't have any illusion that they should read Godel, Escher and
Bach or anything like that. It's much more simple in that age.

If you want to spend time on your ipad/iphone/computer/xbox. Either have fun
participating in something, see something someone else spend a lot of time
creating (tv shows, cartoons etc) or learn something.

There is no need for them to become a couch potato at that early an age.

~~~
junkscience2017
report back when you try this strategy with a teenager

~~~
ThomPete
I would never try this strategy on a teenager. My boys are 4 an 8 it works on
them. With teenagers, it's about something else.

------
nikhizzle
I would argue this title is a bit sensationalist. Limiting screen time (much
like Mr. Gates and Mr. Jobs) is a very common practice in our community.

Our family follows the standard guidelines for doing so:

[https://www.aap.org/en-us/about-the-aap/aap-press-
room/pages...](https://www.aap.org/en-us/about-the-aap/aap-press-
room/pages/american-academy-of-pediatrics-announces-new-recommendations-for-
childrens-media-use.aspx)

~~~
amigoingtodie
My children are only allowed to use monochrome monitors and tactile keyboards.

~~~
malkia
My second computer was 286 with Hercules monitor (~199x). Not being able to
play many games, I took on the "herculian" effort to try to make it so. It
kind of worked with the Trolls game
([http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/trolls](http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/trolls))
where I found that they kept the video buffer in main memory, and then were
copying it to 0xA0000. I did something simple - a TSR program that would copy
(actually some made up bit transform) every once in a while (interrupt driven
I think) the 320x200x256 colors screen buffer into the hercules by just taking
some of the bits... ignoring the palette... Somehow it almost worked - like
5-10fps :) - but I was able to ... almost play the game... It was more fun
coding it!

I also found the message which is listed in the mobygames page :)

------
sigsergv
It seems to me that low-use of smartphones/facebooks in rich families are not
because of restrictions but because of much more expensive and broad
education, that includes schools and after-school activites that are not
available to “regular people”. Rich kids just don't have enough time to spend
in facebook.

------
b0rsuk
This whole article is a huge "appeal to authority" fallacy, and with a sample
of 2. I'm not a fan of smartphones or FB myself, but this barely proves
anything. Does America only have 2 tech gurus ? The argumentation borders on
cult of personality.

~~~
erasemus
A countervailing authority:

 _Why keep kids away from tech they will create their lives with? Creative,
not passive. It 's like keeping our generation away from pencils._

\-- Garry Kasparov

------
mrits
I'm not sure that being really bored all the time (whether it was a long car
ride or watching bad TV) was much better. I also don't know if reading fantasy
novels is really better than watching YouTube. My parents and teachers seemed
to be thrilled with the idea of reading but I think you have some dimensioning
returns on the actual value if the content is still junk.

~~~
tedmiston
A few differences worth consideration are that books don't have popups
distracting you while consuming the content, ads, or autoplay follow-on
content.

Also the writer and publisher don't make more money if you buy the book and
spend 1 hour consuming it vs dozens. If anything, maybe we could argue they
make less overall the longer you read it because spending your reading time on
one book comes with the opportunity cost of not reading others.

------
foxyv
In my area, the issue is that kids can't get around. The street has turned
into a "Death Race" as population levels climb and the streets get
wider/faster. Everything is designed to limit pedestrian traffic to major
streets only and it takes 2 miles of walking to get 100 ft to another block
because of fences. Every strip of land has been turned into a home and had a
fence put around it. Parks are turning into a thing of the past and schools
are off limits after hours and on weekends.

Then we blame technology for kids being inside all day. What else are they
going to do?

------
gregpilling
I have programmed the home router to turn on and off at various times of the
day. Since we stream all video, and many games require an internet connection,
this has the result of automatically controlling screen time. I tried it after
this
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13395964](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13395964)
comment, and it has worked really really well.

Children are 14,10,7 and 4 years old. I am waiting for the day the kids learn
to hack the router, but so far they are too well behaved.

So if you have kids, try it!

------
mtkd
I suspect this will right itself.

The next generation are always hardwired to revolt against the previous ones -
and they take all existing tech as the norm - so it's not massively
interestingly/revolutionary.

Millennials may well be peak social/online tech - as subsequent gens switch
off and start to rediscover what it is like to feel/smell/buy clothes from a
real shop and use a pencil/paper/desk light to design something.

Why would they opt-in to being tracked/profiled/segmented/targeted while
contributing free social content to megacorps 24/7?

~~~
anotheryou
I don't think so. The revolt is not to use facebook, but snapchat instead;
it's not using tin-can phones.

Highly optimized to be addictive to the average consumer, you'd have to be
well schooled or an oddball otherwise not to fall for it.

I for example hate facebook and I'm far from addiction, but in my social
sphere I need it for instant messaging and events. So not even someone who
hates a service is safe from using it (or at least the costs of not using it
are real enough that in many scenarios the hate against it is not enough).

~~~
baq
Exactly. Facebook should be an utility, not a media/advertising company they
say they are.

------
firefoxd
Before the parent can be made to restrict internet use, they first have to
understand their own susceptibility to internet over use.

I used to try to restrict use of YouTube until i looked at my own history.
It's like a drug user telling you to stop using drugs. So i tried to fix it
for myself first. Now I'm the guy that will not watch the video you just sent,
for the simple reason that it is designed to be addictive.

The problem is not just children but also parents.

------
ZenoArrow
Seems like it could be another case of 'correlation is not causation'. Are
depressed kids more likely to have a greater use of technology to communicate?
I would suggest there's a case to be made for that. However, there's no
evidence shared in this article that suggests increased use of
smartphones/laptops/tablets causes depression.

~~~
baq
It's much easier to trigger depression in someone who's on the edge. A couple
snarky anonymous comments and it's done. This simply didn't happen in the past
when anonymity wasn't so easily attained.

------
Simulacra
I really want to limit screen time for my children. I grew up in an era where
screen time only made up maybe 50% of my free time. I think that's a good
balance.

~~~
stevenwoo
I can remember when I self limited screen time to a couple of hours a day at
most because the four tv channels only had stuff that was interesting to child
me for that long, the rest was directed at older folks and kind of bored me to
distraction.

------
andrewfromx
i just bought a gun-safe with a complex passcode to physically lock up our
ipad and android tablet. I removed the passwords from the devices (that was
just annoying) and moved to actually put the thing in a locked box where kids
cannot access it for hours.

