
Australian regulator investigates Google data harvesting from Android phones - dsr12
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/may/14/australian-regulator-investigates-google-data-harvesting-from-android-phones
======
askvictor
Here's a the same story via the Guardian:
[https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/may/14/australia...](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/may/14/australian-
regulator-investigates-google-data-harvesting-from-android-phones)

A quote contained within both stories: > The software company Oracle revealed
Google could be harvesting a gigabyte of data from Android devices each month

Given that my data plan is 1.5 GB/month, I would notice if a gigabyte
magically disappeared every month (it doesn't). Hopefully the ACCC has enough
skepticism and technical knowledge to see through Oracle's FUD. OTOH what's in
it for Oracle here? Purely trying to damage Google's brand? I suppose the
media have run with it and it's working.

~~~
anonytrary
I used to be paranoid about companies using my microphone and camera to spy on
me until I realized the data costs associated with the spying would be so
great, that I'd notice. That single argument has ended my paranoia on the
matter. I hope others can be at ease. That said, I still put tape on my laptop
and refuse all tracking and ad requests.

~~~
code_duck
They don’t have to send back all of the raw data, just analyses like ‘person
X’s face detected, is in a noisy place’ or ‘conversation included these 5
keywords’. The processing and data transfer could also be deferred until the
phone is idle or on WiFi.

~~~
chibg10
It's just as farfetched to think they're doing constant image/voice
recognition with your phone's processor without you knowing. Those models are
big and take a lot of computing power

~~~
code_duck
It doesn’t need to be constant or continual. I don’t talk continually near my
phone, for one.

Siri and other voice rec is able to get words from my audio without appearing
to affect my phone function or slow it down. There are plenty of times my
phone is idle that it could be doing that.

Same with photos. When you give many apps access to your photos, as we know,
they will analyze and/or transit the metadata of all photos on the device.
It’s not hard to imagine going farther than that, and as noted, processing or
data transfer could be deferred.

~~~
UncleMeat
Siri listens for a hotword, which is tremendously easier than running general
speech detection models all the time.

~~~
code_duck
Seems like you have to do at least minimal analysis of all sounds to be
listening for a hot word.

------
flashman
> "The information fed back to Google includes barometric pressure readings so
> it can work out, for example, which level of a shopping mall you are on."

I scoffed, but this is actually a thing:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4431287/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4431287/)

(It's also useful for weather observations, see the old PressureNET.io site
for an opt-in version.)

Anyway, my monthly mobile data usage for Google services is 110 MB and that's
including the map tiles, Google Play services and Play Store (I have location
history disabled). I'd be interested in whether _anyone_ is having a gig of
their data used.

~~~
godelmachine
Are barometric sensors commonplace in smartphones?

~~~
doomlaser
That's the component that Apple replaced the headphone jack with, apparently.

~~~
askvictor
iPhones have had barometers since the 6:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone#Barometer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone#Barometer)

~~~
doomlaser
And they put an _extra big_ one in the space formerly occupied by the
headphone jack:
[https://www.theverge.com/2016/9/16/12941040/iphone-7-teardow...](https://www.theverge.com/2016/9/16/12941040/iphone-7-teardown-
plastic-behind-where-headphone-jack-used-to-be)

------
magicalist
The title should be the headline

> _ACCC investigating Oracle research showing Google users Android phone plan
> data to spy_

(typo is theirs)

And by "investigating" it means Oracle did a presentation stating that if you
have location history on it uses data and the commission chairman told News
Corp Australia, "my people are looking into it."

> _That Oracle had come to Australia to do the presentation showed the value
> of the ACCC inquiry, he said._

lol

~~~
superflyguy
It's great, isn't it? I think Oracle just bought Microsoft's unsuccessful
"Scroogled" campaign.

------
ocdtrekkie
So, my read on it is basically that the claim is that Google's data collection
on Android costs users a lot of money in data charges. It's probably a fairly
reasonable point to bring up since almost everything could be done on-device
if Google didn't have specific interest in people's user data, but it's also
very hard to argue that Google doesn't have user permission to do it, assuming
EULAs nobody reads or can understand are legal in the given jurisdiction.

And of course, this appears to be another front in which Oracle is helping
point out the many ways Android is screwing everyone else over, mostly because
they're upset about Android screwing _them_ over.

~~~
toomuchtodo
This might be another situation where GDPR saves the day; Google will need to
push updates out to limit their data collection, as well as reveal the full
scope of their data collection activities with Android.

~~~
ehsankia
Except that Timeline in Google maps has been GDPR compliant for a long long
time.

1\. You can opt out

2\. You can see all your data

3\. You can export all your data

4\. You can delete all your data

Also, they have very little evidence for their claims that it's actually using
that much data. From my experience, Google only syncs on wifi and rarely
wastes your mobile data.

~~~
titzer
It isn't Google Maps that is collecting this data, it's Google Play Services,
which is a service layer at the bottom that underlies all location information
on the device.

~~~
ehsankia
Do you have any sources or proof that Play Services collects location, and
that said collection doesn't follow the 4 points specified above?

------
dingo_bat
Android is the biggest example of how companies practice bait and switch under
the banner of "open source". I's rather have fully proprietary software that
respects my privacy than open source software that opens up my private data.

~~~
kelnos
My guess here is that most of the tracking bits are implemented through the
Google Play Services app/service, which is fully closed source. This isn't an
open vs. closed thing... unless someone would want to make the point that this
sort of tracking would be easier to find and verify if the software doing it
actually was open source.

~~~
jcfrei
That's true as far as I know as well. I started removing permissions from the
play service applications in Android. I've run into two issues afterwards:
Some apps complain (but continue to work) and you can't install new apps from
the play store (the store stops working without any warning or error). However
I wonder how effective this is - does anybody have any insights to share?

------
patrickg_zill
Google is fundamentally dishonest.

Example: my phone has both a Wifi and GPS chip. I open Maps and it tells me it
can't give me navigation unless I turn on Location Services or whatever, which
allows them to use the Wifi to scan for APs or whatever else they do.

It's 100% a lie, because any other GPS based navigation system (such as
TomTom, Magellan GPS devices) can in fact do this; and they have far less CPU
power than my phone does.

~~~
shagie
The cold start for a GPS can take several the better part of a minute. Using
WiFi or other information to get an improvement on the cold and warm start
times.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_to_first_fix](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_to_first_fix)

A relevant patent
[https://patents.google.com/patent/US20020142783](https://patents.google.com/patent/US20020142783)

[https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/230305/warm-...](https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/230305/warm-
hot-starting-a-gsm-gps-module)

~~~
dingo_bat
Background wifi scanning is unrelated to this. You're describing AGPS, and
google maps doesn't even ask permission to use that. They just go ahead and
use whatever internet connection is available to fetch that.

------
Chockster
Oracle is also in the business of collecting consumer data for marketing:

[https://www.oracle.com/corporate/acquisitions/bluekai/index....](https://www.oracle.com/corporate/acquisitions/bluekai/index.html)

> BlueKai also runs the world's largest 3rd party data marketplace to augment
> a customer's proprietary data with actionable information on more than 700
> million profiles.

------
mike_n
Is it not assumed/expected that if you're using android then google has access
to all your phone's data/sensors?

~~~
gpm
Of course it isn't. I own the phone, not Google.

Do you expect Apple to listen to your conversations just because you use a mac
and it has a microphone? Do you expect Toyota to track you everywhere you go
because your car came with a GPS system?

Building the system, let alone just making the software, doesn't give you the
rights to all the data it produces after you sell it.

~~~
merb
> Of course it isn't. I own the phone, not Google.

Maybe the phone, but not the software running on it.

~~~
sjwright
I don't know why that comment was being voted down, but it is a correct and
important point. Consumers' idea of product ownership is more aligned with
that of cars and coffee machines.

Most consumers don't realise how little of their phone is purchased and how
much of it is licensed, rented or reliant on corporate existence. Imagine if
Apple and Google magically disappeared from the universe—the value and utility
of your phone will plummet.

~~~
merb
> Consumers' idea of product ownership is more aligned with that of cars and
> coffee machines.

Well in germany there is a good sentence about that. 'Ignorance of the law is
no excuse'. So basically no matter what you know of anything you won't be
guarded by laziness (at least if you are under normal conditions of course).

------
mdekkers
I'm really sick of Google, Apple, Microsoft, Facebook and every other company
that uses lies, deceit, ambiguity and general dark patterns to coerce me into
parting with the ownership of my systems.

Google must be laughing their asses off with all the Facebook scrutiny - I am
pretty sure that the profile FB has on users and non-users alike is but a
vague precis when compared with the profile Google has on all of us.

Microsoft has now started claiming that "Windows is a service" and they can
fuck right off. I have lost count on the amount of times my machine rebooted
in the middle of the night, despite implementing hack after hack to stop this
disgusting behaviour.

 _I_ paid for my hardware, and _I_ paid for my software - none of these
bastards get to decide what part of my data they get to siphon off.

They are _all_ at it, like pigs on the trough. I bought a OnePlus 2 years ago,
due to the promise that it is lightweight, has no crap pre-installed like an
unremovable facebook, or whatever else these fuckers come up with next. Turns
out OnePlus is just as happy grabbing your data and silently siphoning this
off to some hidden database.

I have a new PC on the way, which will be the first time in about 10 years
that I'll be going back to a Linux desktop as my main daily driver. My phone
is next, I'm looking for a nice feature phone that doesn't send my private
information back to these fuckers.

Stallman was right.

~~~
Lio
Could I suggest you look at
[https://puri.sm/products/](https://puri.sm/products/) for both private phone
and laptops running Linux.

They can't deliver everything that RMS would look for in a laptop or phone yet
but they are actively working to remove all binary blobs from their CoreBoot
BIOS and to disable the Intel Management Engine.

Their OS is already FSF compliant.

~~~
mdekkers
Thanks for the tip!

------
JepZ
I don't like the whole 'Google tracks us' thing either, but it seems so
hypocritical when the background seems to be the Oracle-Google dispute, as we
all know that Oracle isn't really known for being the good company either. But
at least the whole privacy topic gets some media coverage that way.

~~~
titzer
Oracle would do better to just publish facts and let other people doing the
fighting, IMO. They risk tainting the whole discussion with their
radioactivity and I'd prefer it be based on the facts.

------
zmmmmm
How naive would you have to be to believe Oracle has showed up in the best
interests of consumers and is actually being truthful here? Problem is, from
the article it actually feels like the ACCC might indeed be that naive.

------
ggm
I have two feelings about this. The first is, that if my data usefully
supplies information to "the commons" which makes services like maps better
for everyone including me, there is a zero-sum win-win here, and I'm ok.

The second is, that if there is some private leveraged advantage Google gets,
over other people, which dis-equilibriates in the commons, This is not good,
and I should be told quite clearly thats the case, and how it works.

~~~
phs318u
> if my data usefully supplies information to "the commons"

This could be achieved using an approach like differential privacy[0] which
Apple use.

[0]
[https://images.apple.com/privacy/docs/Differential_Privacy_O...](https://images.apple.com/privacy/docs/Differential_Privacy_Overview.pdf)

~~~
sharcerer
Fyi, google also uses it. Has been using it before Apple. Even opensourced it
so that people could make sure its effectiveness. Also, right now its AI
division is doing considerable research in federated learning ( its basically,
diff. provacy). But,apple promoted this as if it was their breakthrough. Heard
of Ian Goodfellow (the GANfather)? He is one of the geniuses at G researching
in this area.

------
mudil
Neither Google nor FB should be gathering personal information worse than NSA.
Personal information is personal, and free people in a free society should not
be followed by multinational corporations.

Furthermore, Facebook and Google control close to 85% of the digital ad
market. The rest 15% goes to the content creators and to the journalism. If
Google and FB were not able to invade everyone's privacy, that would have
created a level playing field for national, regional, and specialized media to
prosper. But because they know who you are, they can display an ad for you on
any platform. If you are from Denver, here's an ad for a Denver event on your
mobile game. So who needs journalism if an article in Denver Post is on par to
a Candy Crush screen? Who needs quality content on the internet? There is a
reason why there is no VC investment in the content whatsoever.

------
bitmapbrother
_The experts, from computer and software corporation Oracle, claim Google is
draining roughly one gigabyte of mobile data monthly from Android phone users’
accounts as it snoops in the background, collecting information to help
advertisers._

Sometimes you need to take off the gloves and get your hands dirty. Google
really needs to take Oracle to task for their public smear campaign.

------
deostroll
If this is a real concern, wouldn't android's source show the evidence?

~~~
trendia
It's in Google play services, which is "separate" from Android, but good luck
installing your favorite Android apps without it.

------
greesil
Shouldn't all this data just be uploaded over wifi?

~~~
Fins
Maybe it should, but in my experience Android is perfectly happy to
automatically update Play Services and Service for Instant Apps (whatever the
hell that is) over the cell network, despite settings being set to manual
update on WiFi. Which is a Windows 10 level of obnoxiousness. So I wouldn't be
surprised if they were sending stuff over customer's metered connection.

------
minicoolva
I can't access this page now

------
onetimemanytime
>> _Given more than 10 million Aussies have an Android phone, if Google had to
pay for the data it is said to be siphoning, it would face a bill of between
$445 million and $580 million a year._

It's obvious that Oracle and Google don't get along. To be generous. So it's
brilliant for Oracle to have the state(s) or attorneys do their work for them.
Now EU will get involved and (at the least) class action lawyers in USA.

------
yuhong
[https://twitter.com/berendjanwever/status/775366191078641664](https://twitter.com/berendjanwever/status/775366191078641664)

"One of the reasons I left Google was because "don't be evil" got replaced by
"collect and monetize information""

Notice I asked them for more info to help trace back the problems, but
received little response. I wonder how for example Larry and Sergey are
involved.

~~~
kyrra
Google Play Services provides the location services API to most apps on your
phone.

[https://developer.android.com/training/location/](https://developer.android.com/training/location/)

------
exodust
Get ad-blockers and grains of salt ready before clicking on News Limited Daily
Tele stories.

I find this claim doubtful...

> " _The Oracle experts say phone owners’ data ends up being consumed even if
> Google Maps is not in use or aeroplane mode is switched on._ "

It's called "flight mode" on my android, and I highly doubt my data is being
used when flight mode is activated.

With that said, Google does get pushy and invasive. Maps is annoying how it
bugs you to go online and turn location settings on just to see a map. If I
already know where I am, and only need to see a map, I shouldn't need to go
online. Google have reluctantly allowed "offline maps" in recent times, but in
typical Google fashion, the offline maps "expire" after only 30 days.

~~~
cma
I'm pretty sure they are confusing things. When you turn on airplane mode and
turn off GPS, Google will log all the wifi access points you come across
(which only requires listening on the radio, not sending), and when you turn
Airplane mode back off, it will upload that data to Google who can then go
back and retroactively track your location based on their access point
location database.

~~~
exodust
You're presenting a hypothetical as fact. The article doesn't mention anything
about logging wifi access points, that's just you throwing another theory into
the mix.

When Google location services is switched off, and your account is set to not
track you or record history, there is absolutely not a "gig" of "secret
spying" going on in the background.

Nobody forces you to leave wi-fi and mobile data on by default and everything
set to default. Don't want to be tracked by Google? Then open settings and
switch things off, it's not hard.

Like I said, grain of salt for News Limited articles. They hate Google, as do
Oracle. The Daily Tele can't even write an article title without errors...
"research showing Google users Android", bunch of amateurs.

~~~
titzer
> Nobody forces you to leave wi-fi and mobile data on by default and
> everything set to default. Don't want to be tracked by Google? Then open
> settings and switch things off, it's not hard.

Sorry, no. Turning on WiFi is not the same as consenting to be tracked
everywhere. Your whole comment is all mixed up. First, you cannot disable
Google Location Services. Period. You can turn off location, but you cannot,
e.g. use GPS directly without going through Google Play Services. Second, you
say the parent's comment was hypothetical, and yet, then you assume it is true
and then suggest that using WiFi is consent to some hypothetical practice.

> Like I said, grain of salt for News Limited articles. They hate Google, as
> do Oracle.

And then you attack the source! Geesh.

~~~
exodust
1\. I can turn off location settings on my phone. 2\. I can also log out of
Google maps app, and still use the app. 3\. I can go into google maps app
settings under "google location settings" and untick the box that says "access
location". 4\. I can disable location history for google location services
from the same place in settings.

Like I said, you can uncheck a lot of stuff and still use the app.

I don't want to be tracked when I asked not to, but I'm not convinced that's
happening from a clickbait tabloid article with spelling errors in headline,
and vague details.

I also would like to use GPS without anything else for maps, so I tried
Maps.Me for awhile, but as most people know it can take a long time to lock on
when only using GPS. sometimes several minutes depending where you are, or
whether moving etc.

> _And then you attack the source! Geesh._

If you're implying the Daily Telegraph source is worth defending against
ridicule, perhaps spend a bit of time on that site and see if you come away
with any respect for their journalism. The Mod has changed the link anyway now
to the Guardian, since the "source" prior to that was clickbait rubbish.

