
Students at Fake University Say They Were Collateral Damage in Sting Operation - danso
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/06/nyregion/students-at-fake-university-say-they-were-collateral-damage-in-sting-operation.html
======
sageabilly
From the article:

 _Ultimately, the students said that because the Department of Homeland
Security’s website certified the University of Northern New Jersey, they
believed the institution was legitimate. In addition, the website of the New
Jersey Education Department listed it as approved. So did the website of the
Accrediting Commission of Career Schools and Colleges, a national body._

It's easy to think "Oh, those students knew they were being duped, they knew
what they were getting into"\- but if you're coming from another country with
a completely different way of doing things, and this university which appears
to be accredited AND have the blessing of the US Government pops up going
"Apply here and we'll give you a visa, you don't have to go to class and we
promise it's above-board"... I don't think that's going to immediately
register as a scam. Odd, maybe, but then you see they're accredited and you
think "well if it was a scam they wouldn't have accreditation."

~~~
aclimatt
Absolutely. It was downright sinister of the DHS to implicate the students in
this when they themselves legitimized the school in no less than three
different places. To quote the article, "if you can't trust the government,
who can you trust?"

I understand what the government says by "you have to know the law", but it's
idiocy to expect everyone to be a lawyer, and instead we all use our best
judgement.

Maybe the signs were clear that UNNJ were fake, maybe they weren't, but fraud
implies a _knowing_ and _willful_ attempt to break the law, and almost all of
these cases seem far from it. It's shameful to make most of these students
appear in immigration court.

~~~
slededit
It looked legitimate except for the part where you didn't have to go any
classes or learn anything. You don't have to be a lawyer to understand that
goes against the spirit of the law - and if your intent is to walk that line
not getting a lawyer is irresponsible.

~~~
SilasX
Laws that are self-defeating to their ostensible purpose are almost the _norm_
at this point, though. I don't expect anyone, as a matter of law, to say
"wait, that's ridiculous, that incentivizes me to do X, when obviously the law
exists to promote not-X, so obviously this scheme to ramp up our X is shady."

If you want an example, here's one off the cuff: the law that says you can
only bring free water out at restaurants if the patron asks. If anything, the
automatic water _displaces_ the consumption of other drinks, which generally
require other ag products that are far more rainwater intense per liter
consumed. So if I'm a waiter, am I undermining or supporting "the spirit of
that law" if I remind people to ask?

~~~
jacalata
Where is that law? I know tons of restaurants that offer free water without
being asked.

~~~
SilasX
Recent California thing: [http://sf.eater.com/2015/3/17/8237891/serving-water-
californ...](http://sf.eater.com/2015/3/17/8237891/serving-water-california-
prohibited-without-request-bars-restaurants)

------
emerongi
This sounds like entrapment.

I don't know US laws at all, but I thought the "leave the car doors open and
wait for someone to steal it" method of catching bad guys was against the law?

~~~
ejk314
There are only two conditions for entrapment - government inducement of the
crime, and the defendant's lack of predisposition to engage in the criminal
conduct. [1] And I think this qualifies on both counts. The students were
looking to get into the US, but the government pushed this visa mill on them
indirectly, via the brokers (who wouldn't have had a dual-accredited fake
university to pitch without the government's aid). Had these brokers not
reached out to these students, it's unlikely that they would have sought out
the same illegal method to enter the country. (This is assuming the brokers
reached out the students, and not the other way round).

[1] [https://www.justice.gov/usam/criminal-resource-
manual-645-en...](https://www.justice.gov/usam/criminal-resource-
manual-645-entrapment-elements)

~~~
masterzora
The brokers reaching out to the students doesn't mean entrapment, even if we
took the case where the brokers actually were government agents. To be
entrapment, someone working on the government's behalf would have to do
something that would even convince a lawful-minded person to commit the crime.

~~~
Nacraile
> To be entrapment, someone working on the government's behalf would have to
> do something that would even convince a lawful-minded person to commit the
> crime.

As a lawful-minded individual, if multiple government websites tell me the
institution is accredited, and the head of the institution tells me that work-
for-credit is sufficient for student status, I am reasonably convinced that it
is legal for me to enroll and apply for a visa.

Just how deep into the letter of the law do I have to dig to discover this
isn't legal?

~~~
Lawtonfogle
I think the difference here is not that it was entrapment, but that it wasn't
a crime at all. Unless the law says this crime is strict liability, then the
prosecutor would need to show that these individuals intended to commit the
crime they were committing.

For example, say you have a bucket in your yard, I go and stick a sign up
saying 'Free bucket to good home.' and someone else comes by and grabs the
bucket. Focusing only on the third person's actions for a moment, even though
they took a bucket that they had no right to take, and they would likely have
to give back, they never committed a crime because they never intended to
steal the bucket. They only intended to take a bucket being given away freely.
(This is different from 'ignorance of the law isn't an excuse'; that would
apply if they did intend to steal a bucket but thought stealing wasn't
illegal.)

(Now there is still an issue with the government doing something similar with
strict liability laws and I'm not sure how that one works out.)

------
danso
FWIW, a Chronicle article that focuses on how the Feds maintained their fake
web presence: [http://chronicle.com/article/Inside-the-Elaborate-
Web/235982](http://chronicle.com/article/Inside-the-Elaborate-Web/235982)

The Internet Archive has a copy of the now defunct unnj.edu:
[https://web.archive.org/web/20160327093120/http://www.unnj.e...](https://web.archive.org/web/20160327093120/http://www.unnj.edu/)

~~~
simonbarker87
Given that you need to meet these eligibility criteria to even register a .edu
domain name I think this shows a pretty concerted effort to make this look
like a legitimate institution and dupe the students in the first place.

[http://net.educause.edu/edudomain/eligibility.asp](http://net.educause.edu/edudomain/eligibility.asp)

------
devy
Astonishing excerpt:

    
    
          The official confirmed that one person did enlist, and that only one person 
          was employed by Facebook, one person by Apple, two at Morgan Stanley and 
          several at other prominent financial institutions.
    

I wonder if these company HRs were actually doing any background checks at
all? They certainly do ask for a lot of forms to fill out...

~~~
presidentender
I had a background check once. They asked for my dates of attendance at my
alma mater, which I provided. Then they called for clarification, because the
dates they got from the university didn't match - I took 4 years to do a 4
year degree, graduating in 2009, but somehow the information they got
suggested that I started in August 2007 and "left" in October 2008 - although
they did agree that I had a degree.

I tried to explain to them that the dates they had managed to get from the
university were for a job I had on campus, and that I hadn't done a bachelor's
in a year. "Yes, sir, but if I can just confirm that you were there August
2007 through October 2008, then this will clear things up." So I did the
expedient thing.

~~~
calebegg
I had an incredibly similar experience. My employer's third party background
check company was able to confirm my degree, but claimed I'd gotten it in a
year, and so my entire school section was listed on the report as (large,
red): "UNCONFIRMED" (they never contacted me). I was somewhat worried, since
there's some strong language about how if this background check doesn't go
well the offer is voided or something, but my recruiter just laughed and said
it happens all the time.

------
baby
The only way to get a job here for some people is to get a student Visa. This
sting is just morbid. All of that to arrest a thousand workers. Wrong
priorities?

~~~
maxerickson
I'm pretty okay with enforcement action against this sort of fraud. What about
people that actually want to come here to study?

I'd also be okay with radically simplifying and opening the Visa system, but I
don't want the existing concessions to go to people that are intending to
abuse them.

~~~
baby
> What about people that actually want to come here to study?

There are no quota on student visas

> that are intending to abuse them

I wouldn't call that an abuse. Rather, the only solution for many people if
they don't want to stay/work illegally.

~~~
maxerickson
If they aren't studying it is clearly an abuse of the intent of the Visa.

It is confusing that the Visas are supposed to be issued in relation to an
institution approved by the US government. Given that rule, it probably
doesn't need to be up to the applicant to verify that their course of study is
approved (I'd be fine charging a fee to cover that verification, but it should
be done as part of issuing the Visa).

~~~
twinkletwinkle
>If they aren't studying it is clearly an abuse of the intent of the Visa

It's a fairly victimless crime... the visas' feelings aren't being hurt,
that's for sure.

In this particular case especially, the Department of Homeland Security
"verified" the school. How can you expect immigrants to do any more research
than getting the approval of the DHS?

~~~
maxerickson
I edited in my second paragraph shortly before you posted, I agree that it's a
bit much to require a verified school and then setup a fake school that
appears to be verified.

------
6stringmerc
Wait, hold on - let me break this down a little more simplistically:

Communities of foreign-born peoples, possibly already living in the US
(undocumented / falsified records) exist. There are "brokers" who cater to
these communities, engaging in a fraudulent enterprise of getting Student
Visas for these foreign nationals, usually under the umbrella of a made-up
university. With this made-up university, these people can claim to be
students yet spend their time working - for whom, over or under the table, I'm
not clear from the article.

What is quite clear:

> _Most of the students were from China and India, where working with brokers
> is a familiar way of doing business._

This model of using brokers is not to be envied, and if 25 (or more)
"students" were led into submitting their documentation in order to commit
fraud in the US...well, I've got no sympathy. Make a point. In the US, the
concept of "brokers" often includes licenses and duties to perform in earnest
(insurance, securities, health plans, etc), not assisting with committing
fraud.

I understand the strong desire to come to the US, legally or illegally, and
stay however possible. That's what's being preyed upon as well. There are
certain cultural practices in the US though, while not perfect, I still think
have meaning and importance.

This article does a good job putting humanity to those affected, but seems,
um, a bit tone-deaf as to the bigger picture...in that to find people willing
to commit fraud, the setup had to be 'believable' enough. Methinks it was.
Caveat Emptor.

~~~
dreamdu5t
Bigger picture? The bigger picture is Americans think going to school and
working should be illegal for anyone else but themselves, and that it's okay
to hurt young students trying to get ahead in the name of protecting their
xenophobic and hypocritical immigration laws. Your presidential candidate's
biggest idea is a fucking giant wall to keep the mexicans you love to employ
out.

What a joke. If you think there's any sense to stings like this you're
deluded.

~~~
anoonmoose
These students were not going to school. They knew they wouldn't be taking
classes. Are you arguing this wasn't a scam?

~~~
paulmd
Most universities will let you do an internship or something instead of a
class. And, this university _was_ accredited by a reputable organization, so
they held this out as something that a great number of reputable people and
organizations had supposedly said was OK. And these were foreigners in
particular, so they might not have the same warning signals that US natives
might have.

At the end of the day the US higher-ed system is largely pay-to-win anyway. If
you just want to check the boxes so you can make it through the HR filters and
move onto a decent-paying job, most schools will happily oblige. All they care
about is if the check clears, there's plenty of students who surf the internet
through their gen-eds and easily pass. College is what you make of it, and
it's simply not that weird to see an accredited university offering a super-
easy course load.

If the difference you're seeing here is that they don't hold a lecture for the
kids to skip, who cares? Sounds like cost optimization to me - eliminate the
tutoring and you can get your name on a piece of piece of paper and check that
box even more cheaply.

------
mindcrime
_“Typically in any fraud investigation, it is our policy that we do not refund
any money,” Mr. Phillips, the Homeland Security spokesman, said._

Sounds like the ones committing fraud here were the US government. But, would
you really expect anything different?

------
coldtea
> _Twenty-five students were listed as anonymous co-conspirators, but
> officials say all of them knew they were committing fraud by not going to
> class._

In my country there's no obligation whatsoever to go to class.

You can skip as long as you like (except some special lab courses) and s long
as you are able to pass the final exams, you are OK.

And even if you don't show up for the exams, you can try again next year (kids
working while studying often take like 10 years to complete a 3 year course,
but you could still be considered a student after 15 or 20 years, as long as
you registered every year -- of course some privileges, like student discounts
and being able to live in the dorm etc were not available to you anymore after
the 4th year or so).

------
devy
From the related coverages linked on the bottom of this article, there is this
surprising info.

    
    
          The official confirmed that one person did enlist, and that only one person was employed by Facebook, one person by Apple, two at Morgan Stanley and several at other prominent financial institutions.
    

I wonder if these company HRs were actually doing any background checks at
all? They certainly do ask for a lot of forms to fill out...

~~~
huac
They graduated first from other schools, then got these jobs. When the
students lost the H1-B lottery, they then enrolled in the UNNJ. There's
probably questions for HR to ask ('you lost the H1-B lottery, how are you
still here?') but it's not related to applying to these schools with a fake
university on the transcript (again, one that had multiple accreditations).

------
dreamdu5t
Duping and hurting innocent people who want to study or work in the US so they
can collect their paycheck and pat themselves on the back for, what? Nothing.
The brokers only exist because of the US's absurd anti-immigration policies!
When I studied in America, _ALL_ the foreigners including myself worked
illegally to earn money to pay for school. Meanwhile, the American students
were rude, lazy, and constantly complained about having to go to class 30
hours a week. Try having to wash dishes for $3/hr on top of that under the
threat of deportation! America's rhetoric about "free markets" is completely
bullshit. They're a heartless nation when it comes to education and
healthcare.

~~~
ksou32
You can go somewhere else.

I'm liberal as can be , but you can't agree to the rules of a student visa and
then say their so unfair.

------
geodel
I have known many people of similar background quite closely and also talked
to recruiters who help them get jobs. One thing I have invariably noticed none
of them was tricked into shady visa related things. They absolutely wanted
shortcuts legal or not.

There are many more universities still working on same model. They are legal
in very strict and narrow sense but intention is to have students who just
want visa to land in US. This model proliferated during stricter H1 scrutiny
as student visa proved another way to enter US and work.

------
ezoe
Sting Operation is illegal in Japan. A proof of crime acquired in an illegal
way is not proof in japan.

I don't want to set foot on American soil because I cannot trust the law of
USA.

------
rubyfan
Am I the ink one who wants one of those UNNJ t-shirt?

------
coldcode
Imagine you started a new Department of Internal Security, got a .gov domain,
built up a large website with forms to have people apply for some kind of
visa, and took money from random people who thought it was a federal agency.
Would you be guilty of something?

------
ikeboy
See also [https://www.buzzfeed.com/mollyhensleyclancy/students-at-
fake...](https://www.buzzfeed.com/mollyhensleyclancy/students-at-fake-
university-say-theyre-victims-of-government)

------
caf
At least the UNNJ t-shirt should be some kind of collector's item.

------
mikevp
Here's how it worked:

www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/winston-university/n9203

------
naakkupoochi
If I was told that all I needed to pay was $4500, and don't have to attend
classes, for a course that the every student in other universities attend
classes for, would I not have second thoughts about the university ? Every
student who joined UNNJ knew it was a scam, and they were an accomplice

------
homero
That's messed up

------
mikevp
Sounds like the Billy Crystal SNL routine.

------
daodedickinson
Eh, it was clear to all involved that this was a fake university with no real
classes, even if it appeared that the university had fooled the DHS.

------
rm_-rf_slash
I think we can all agree that DHS was in the wrong for having a sting
university accredited, but I think it's fair to say that if a foreign national
is too thick to see the scam in being enrolled in a university that doesn't
make them take classss to get a student visa, then we don't need them, and if
they are so unscrupulous to see the scam for what it is and they break the law
regardless, then we don't want them.

