
1.5M Packages a Day Bring Chaos to NYC Streets - pseudolus
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/27/nyregion/nyc-amazon-delivery.html
======
crazygringo
The problem isn't trucks -- obviously, it's _hugely_ more efficient for a
single truck+driver to deliver 100's of packages in a single day than for
100's of individual people to spend an hour each going to/from a store, and
even worse for congestion if even more than a few are taking individual
vehicles.

The problem is parking. And the solution is obvious: multiple truck-length
parking spaces along each and every block, for _exclusive_ use by delivery
vehicles, car ride services waiting for pickup, and moving vans. Which,
logistically, would be relatively trivial to implement -- just painted lines
and signs. Street parking needs to be reprioritized for the needs of 2019, not
1950.

It's insane and irresponsible the article doesn't even suggest street-level
fixes like this, and instead seems to imply that the problem is with
irresponsible/unconstrained trucking/deliveries.

Most misleading quote of the article: "“What percent of your deliveries are
truly urgent — 5 percent or 2 percent?” said Mr. Holguín-Veras, the Rensselaer
professor."

What has urgency got to do with it? Whether my package gets delivered in 1 day
or 7 days, it doesn't change the number of trucks on the road. And if it's
truly urgent, then that's when I'm running to the store, not ordering a
package. _Sheesh._

~~~
partisan
Your solution is effectively corporate welfare. The free market should
determine whether customers will order packages or not.

Also, you are suggesting that the government should provide an easier means
for businesses to serve their customers in a way that gives them an advantage
over the local businesses that pay local taxes on purchases.

The real solution is to make delivery companies pay for the congestion they
cause. A fair use tax, for example. Then, using that tax revenue, you can
improve traffic. The delivery companies can pass their costs on to the
retailers and the retailers can pass the costs on to the customers. The
customers can then decide whether they wish to pay more or shop somewhere
else.

~~~
jacques_chester
> _Your solution is effectively corporate welfare._

The current state of affairs is corporate welfare too. With an added side
helping of externalities imposed on other traffic.

I think you're touching on the fact that _all_ road surfaces in NYC are a
massive net wealth transfer to those who drive on them or (especially) park on
them.

I agree. Either charge the full economic rate for use of the road, or turn it
over to public transport, or some mix of these.

~~~
MiroF
We should be phasing out roads for non-delivery traffic in urban areas
anyways.

~~~
icebraining
So no buses in urban areas?

~~~
catalogia
Buses are just trucks that specialize in delivering people.

------
skizm
> They racked up more than 471,000 parking violations last year...

I knew someone who owned a trucking company. They had a lawyer on retainer and
every month or so they would gather all the parking tickets, go to a judge (or
city official) and cut a deal to pay a fraction of the actual owed amount for
all the tickets. This is because, if they did not comply, each ticket would be
fought tooth and nail, and the city would be wrapped in legal red tape
forever.

~~~
CydeWeys
This is common in NYC. The biggest violators should be paying the most, but
instead, they pay the least per violation because they bargain down the fines.

Here's a pretty typical fine record for a truck that was illegally parked in
the bike lane during my commute this week:
[https://twitter.com/CydeWeys/status/1188467550822293512](https://twitter.com/CydeWeys/status/1188467550822293512)
(expand all replies) And note how they're getting a reduction in fines:
[https://twitter.com/HowsMyDrivingNY/status/11884675886255882...](https://twitter.com/HowsMyDrivingNY/status/1188467588625588225)

And Streetsblog has written an entire series of blog posts on it:
[https://nyc.streetsblog.org/category/issues-
campaigns/stipul...](https://nyc.streetsblog.org/category/issues-
campaigns/stipulated-fine-program/)

~~~
Spooky23
What are they supposed to do? There’s a difference between the letter of the
law and reality.

You need deliveries and couriers to make a city work, and NYC is no different.

~~~
Ididntdothis
Problem is that only people or companies with deep pockets can violate the law
that way. If you don’t have money for lawyers you have to pay the tickets.

That’s how end up with a two class society where some people are above the
law.

~~~
Consultant32452
I don't know what it's like in NY, but in my state you can take a driver
safety course and cut your fees down considerably.

~~~
CydeWeys
If taking such a driver safety course actually meant that people didn't park
illegally, then it'd be a huge success, and would be well worth it. But the
not parking illegally part itself would be by far the greatest reduction in
fines.

------
carrozo
_In Paris, freight trucks enter the city at night and deliver packages to
smaller warehouses near homes. In the morning, bikes and electric vans haul
them to people’s doorsteps. Some neighborhood convenience stores and flower
shops double as pickup spots for packages._

European model seems like a good one to copy here.

~~~
kweks
On paper, it's a perfect system. In reality, failing businesses who want the
extra income sign up to be package pickup spots, and then provide deplorable
service.

Some don't respect the opening hours that were published. Some literally climb
over mountains of packages. Some have no organisation. Delivery companies
realised that they no longer have to attempt deliveries so automatically dump
their packages in the pickup points. Most pickup points end up loathing people
who comes to pick up packages: the customer hates the lack of service and
resent that their package wasn't delivered, the shop resents that they have
even less time for their failing business, and take this out on the package
customers.

The worst part is, 90% of the time you can't control if a package goes there.

~~~
apostacy
UPS already tried doing this a few years ago in Brooklyn,[1] but not Manhattan
apparently.

I was subjected to this a few years ago.

Instead of being greeted at the end of the day with my shiny new $300 phone,
they left it in a pile on the filthy floor of a local bodega three blocks
away. Then, after finding it, I have to wait in line and have my ID scanned
and sign for it. And I paid for overnight shipping but if I don't rush home, I
have to wait until the next day.

My neighbor hated it more than I did. So, she started "stealing" her packages
from the bodega. It turns out that if you don't sign for the package, they
return it to the sender after a week and you get a full refund. So you can
easily double dip by not signing for it and also getting a refund. And the
local business is responsible for package being lost.

After two months, the local bodega stopped hosting packages, presumably
because they were having to eat the cost of losing packages. Since there were
no other businesses nearby willing to do this, UPS was forced to resume
delivering to our building.

While this is an effective way for people to shut this kind of thing down, I'm
sure it must be illegal. At least if you get caught, it is fairly deniable,
since the package has your name on it. But it is probably illegal to interfere
with a package being delivered.

Please do not do this. You are stealing from the merchant.

[1]:
[https://www.ups.com/us/en/services/e-commerce/b2c-delivery-s...](https://www.ups.com/us/en/services/e-commerce/b2c-delivery-
solutions.page)

~~~
smelendez
Taking the package and claiming a refund is obviously fraud but it sounds like
the business was also not properly safeguarding the packages.

Why not keep them under the counter?

~~~
apostacy
No, you don't claim a refund. She showed me that her Amazon tracking number
showed that the package she didn't sign for was listed as returned with no
signature, and she was given a refund.

It seems like something that can easily happen by accident. I can understand
why she was frustrated. After being on a crowded subway, I hated having to go
into a crowded store and wait on line to get my package. But I did not agree
with her knowingly exploiting this to get free stuff. I know that she told
other people in our building how to do this. I don't know if this led directly
to the bodega not receiving packages anymore, but I'm sure that someone had to
pay for it.

I would not be surprised if these access points were a major vector for mail
fraud. At this particular bodega, not just did we have to wait on line, but
sometimes we'd have to wait for the clerk to deal with other customers on a
different line. So I can easily see how she would have made off without
signing.

I never had a choice in the matter. I think it was theoretically possible to
opt out, but I would have had to make a UPS account, and even then it was not
a guarantee. I personally really resented how the shipping status would be
changed to something like "For your convenience, we will be delivering to an
access point instead". Even on Saturdays when I was home and able to receive,
they didn't even bother sometimes and would just drop it off at 7PM at the
bodega. Not convenient.

------
kevindong
> “What percent of your deliveries are truly urgent — 5 percent or 2 percent?”
> said Mr. Holguín-Veras, the Rensselaer professor. “We as customers are
> driving the process and to some extent creating these complications.”

As a NYC resident, it's not really a matter of urgency. Identical products are
generally much cheaper online (and generally with free shipping). And it's
much more convenient since the products get shipped straight to my apartment
which removes the need for me to navigate poorly stocked/organized stores and
then carry it back to my apartment by walking, taking the subway, or the bus.

A lot of the time, it's actually difficult to find certain goods in stores
here (or to know which store to go to). Recently I've purchased: calipers, a
high torque servo motor, and playing cards online. I honestly don't know where
I could find calipers and motors in stores here. I've tried buying playing
cards in stores, but I could not find a reasonably sized package in stores
that are also in stock. I've found 6 packs of playing cards in stores, but the
regular 1 or 2-packs are always out of stock. I seriously tried for two months
to buy the cards in store before giving up and buying it on Amazon.

~~~
giarc
I live in Canada but have family in the US. I was visiting once and was
ordering some things on Amazon. Amazon offered me coupons if I delayed
shipment of items. I wish Amazon would expand this offering to other
countries. I'd be happy to have packages combined into a weekly or biweekly
shipment. If I need something right away I could indicate that, but for the
most part I don't need things same day.

~~~
zdragnar
It isn't all that great in practice. At first, they were offering a dollar off
music purchases (which I wasn't making). Once i moved to an area that no
longer had 2 hour delivery (prime now) they started offering coupons for prime
now orders... I HAD been using that on occasion, but couldn't any longer.

It's almost like it was a gimmick that they didn't really care about...

~~~
petra
Amazon wants people to request things immediately. It's harder to do
effectively, so there would be less competition.

------
jliptzin
Last month I was moving out of an apartment in midtown. My entire block,
avenue to avenue, is a no standing zone for some reason. The doorman said it
was just changed a couple years ago. I rented a moving truck, parked it in a
garage for $60 while I finished packing up, moved the truck to the building
entrance where UPS/Fedex trucks are constantly parking, put the hazards on and
loaded up the truck with my stuff as fast as possible. Still got a ticket. I
am really confused as to how a law-abiding person is supposed to move out of
their apartment while not getting a ticket? Especially when UPS trucks seem to
have no issue standing around there for hours.

~~~
steelframe
> how a law-abiding person is supposed to move out of their apartment while
> not getting a ticket?

You can't. Paying tickets when moving in or moving out is just part of the
cost of living in midtown.

~~~
jliptzin
That seems like crappy policy to me. Next time I'm just going to leave the
moving truck parked in the no standing zone all day instead of first paying a
$60 garage fee, if I'm going to get a ticket anyway.

------
CydeWeys
A few thoughts as a bike commuter in Manhattan who sees this first hand every
day:

The congestion tax can't come soon enough (and it should have no carve-outs,
certainly not for people who live here).

We need to get rid of lots of free on-street parking in the city and replace
it with loading zones so that taxis/Ubers and trucks have free spaces on every
block to conduct their business without blocking travel lanes or bike lanes.

The constant blocking of bike lanes by trucks and cars is super dangerous,
kills multiple people per year, and when the police do enforce these
infractions at all, all they can do is write up some measly tickets that the
truck drivers write off as the cost of doing business since they've already
accumulated hundreds of them. No joke: Here's a truck I reported in the bike
lane that's closing in on a thousand tickets:
[https://twitter.com/Reported_NYC/status/1187381912253411328](https://twitter.com/Reported_NYC/status/1187381912253411328)

There are two solutions to this problem, both of which should be undertaken:
Bike lanes should be actually physically protected, so that vehicles cannot
enter the bike lane at all. They did this on the Hudson River bikepath after a
terrorist drove along it and killed six cyclists a few years ago, and they
need to do it in the rest of the city too. All it takes is some jersey
barriers, bollards, and/or new curbs put in.

And the second solution is make the penalties on trucks meaningful. Have the
fine amounts escalate with every violation within a certain period, with no
cap (so that a ticket could eventually cost tens of thousands of dollars for a
particular scofflaw truck, rather than the current ignorable amount of around
a hundred). And tow/confiscate trucks that have enough tickets.

And one more thing: A lot of trucks are manifestly unsafe to be in such dense
cities. >=53' semi-trailers, for example, are completely banned, yet you see
them routinely in the city (and cops don't ticket them). They barely have
enough space to turn through a typical intersection, and the they have very
high beds and wide-open wheels that can easily pull in and crush to death a
pedestrian or cyclist. We should ban all unsafe trucks in the city and
_enforce_ it. The only trucks allowed should be ones with sidewalls that go
nearly to the ground, to prevent anyone from being run over. These trucks
already exist and are widely used in Europe where they are required; here's an
example: [https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-coca-cola-delivery-
truck-b...](https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-coca-cola-delivery-truck-berlin-
germany-30054924.html)

Note that, despite trucks being a minority of vehicles on the road, they
account for way more than their fair share of pedestrian and cyclist deaths,
because traffic speeds here are generally pretty slow and if you get hit by a
car you're likely to be thrown up and over and survive. But you can be killed
by one of these trucks going at just 1 mph simply by being crushed to death.
This is not theoretical; it happened earlier this year when a cyclist
traveling in a bike lane was doored and was thrown underneath an adjacent
truck stuck in traffic, which when it started moving crushed him to death. The
large open spaces between the ground and the truck deck allowing you to get
run over by the wheels is highly dangerous.

~~~
vageli
> And the second solution is make the penalties on trucks meaningful. Have the
> fine amounts escalate with every violation within a certain period, with no
> cap (so that a ticket could eventually cost tens of thousands of dollars for
> a particular scofflaw truck, rather than the current ignorable amount of
> around a hundred). And tow/confiscate trucks that have enough tickets.

Part of the reason these companies can get away with settling is due to the
large volume of tickets they receive. In the case of a fine escalating for
each ticket, I would imagine that the company would then fight each ticket in
court. This could easily overwhelm the courts. This seems like a fundamentally
unfixable vulnerability that has been exploited by other actors (like
Scientology).

~~~
stefan_
This seems to be a recurring theme here, as if a parking violation is some
kind of murder/capital crime situation that requires a diligent team of
prosecutors and lots of hard evidence.

Except, it's not. A parking violation is strict liability for the registered
owner of the car and trivially proven by a mere photograph. Odds of beating it
in court are very very small.

~~~
vageli
It has nothing to do with the odds of beating it in court. If I have 1000
tickets and opt to contest them all, good luck scheduling any other case
(especially if I bring photos, testimony, etc for each case). Further, it is
not "strict liability" and there are defenses that can be raised.

~~~
masonic
If you want to contest 1,000 citations from distinct incidents, the court
_could_ give you 1,000 separate dockets, appearance times, and locations.

------
sheerun
In Poland we have "Paczkomaty" which are often very close to homes and people
can retrieve packages in 3 seconds by waving phone to QR scanner. You can also
retrieve packages in convenience stores like "Żabka" or gas stations like
"Orlen".

------
bogomipz
It's interesting to see Fresh Direct figure so prominently in this because
they're kind of the original two day shipping company in NYC. They've been
delivering groceries to online shoppers since the early 2000s. Also their
warehouse has always been inside the city in LIC, Queens. The complaints about
them and their trucks with loud refrigeration units are just as old. This is
from a decade ago:

[https://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/25/nyregion/25fresh.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/25/nyregion/25fresh.html)

It's not like these delivery issues came out of nowhere. There was plenty of
time for the DOT, the state and city council to look at data, study these
trends and adjust policy accordingly. But like everything else it needs to
reach some crisis level before any appreciable action is undertaken.

------
Udik
A few days ago, in the context of first drone delivery by Google, I asked why
don't we build infrastructure (pipes + automatic pods going through them) to
deliver grocery-sized packages. Sounds like a literal pipe dream, but I'm not
convinced the economics wouldn't work. Deliveries could take a matter of
minutes and the network could be expanded at will, starting with a few
neighborhood delivery spots. At a price of one or two dollars a package, for a
million daily deliveries, it could make sense.

Any thoughts?

~~~
paulmd
It's been done... operated 1897 to 1953, replaced by auto delivery.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumatic_tube_mail_in_New_Yor...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumatic_tube_mail_in_New_York_City)

~~~
Udik
Yes, I hear that every time I mention this. It is a lazy objection: the only
things vaguely similar between the pneumatic tubes of the past and the ones
I'm talking about are the pipes and the pods.

Specifically, in those systems the pods were moved by compressed air: today
they could just be electric and autonomous. They needed to be routed manually
at intermediate stations, now they could just reach their destination
automatically. Only five pods a minute could travel on those pipes, but
electric drive means each pod can keep a minimum distance from the one before.
There would be no need for engine rooms with air compressors spaced along the
route. Etc.

Basically, you can think of it as autonomous driving on a dedicated road any
without obstacles.

------
manigandham
Banning cars on major roads and eliminating street parking would solve this
overnight. Roads in dense urban areas need to be used for service vehicles
only.

It's just political will standing in the way at this point. People don't want
to actually solve the misery, they just want to complain about it.

------
xyst
City tax payers are ultimately paying the price for “2-day shipping” in the
form of more congestion and pollution, and compromised safety.

Shouldn’t the companies causing these problems pay for enhancing the
infrastructure (roads, parking) they use to make their $$$? I imagine it’s a
much more costlier option since you have to work with the city but it should
be a net positive gain (packages delivered more efficiently).

Or maybe the city should tax companies that abuse the public infrastructure?
This may cause smaller companies/independent contractors to close up shop, but
should increase the push towards cleaner delivery options (drone delivery?)

Albeit, this wouldn’t be a problem if people would order less from Amazon and
meal ready companies (Hellofresh, blueapron ...)

~~~
crooked-v
> City tax payers are ultimately paying the price for “2-day shipping” in the
> form of more congestion and pollution, and compromised safety.

"2-day shipping" is only a cause if it makes people order more packages in
general (which it probably does, but it's a leap that should be considered
rather than automatically made). The delivery companies involved are pretty
efficient at this stuff and aren't going to waste money by deploying half-
empty trucks, so the delivery traffic corresponds very linearly to the average
total number of packages being delivered.

> Or maybe the city should tax companies that abuse the public infrastructure?

What about taxing individuals that abuse the public infrastructure by leaving
cars to constantly take up street parking? Delivery companies are certainly
much, much more efficient in terms of road usage and parking space needed than
somebody driving a car to go buy stuff in a shop.

------
nicwolff
> New York has sought to shift more truck deliveries to nights and weekends,
> when streets are emptier. About 500 companies, including pharmacies and
> grocery stores, deliver goods from 7 p.m. to 6 a.m., under a voluntary city
> program.

That program is Off-Hour Truck Delivery
[https://ohdnyc.com](https://ohdnyc.com) and I can't think of any easier
change that would have such a salutary effect on NYC traffic. It should have
been made mandatory as part of the bike and bus lane changes.

------
Havoc
Wait till the things start buzzing around via drones by the thousands...

~~~
tgv
I'm sure someone will try to spin this positively for drone delivery: "See? We
can't let those poor people suffer. We must think out of the box. I know:
let's use unmanned aerial delivery. By the way, did you know my company
happens to be in this business?"

------
tuberelay
I am founding a startup looking to use modern tunneling tech like horizontal
directional drilling and pipe-jacking to build networks of tunnels under major
cities to allow high speed "just in time" deliveries using small autonomous
vehicles.

These would deliver packages, groceries and takeaway meals.

Looking for cofounders/enthusiasts - see:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19131135](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19131135)

------
todipa
at 5am, there is literally no traffic on the streets of Manhattan. There is a
way to utilize the resources of the roads when there is no traffic.

------
danso
FWIW, the city data portal posts parking violation data by year (~10M
rows/year): [https://data.cityofnewyork.us/City-Government/Parking-
Violat...](https://data.cityofnewyork.us/City-Government/Parking-Violations-
Issued-Fiscal-Year-2020/pvqr-7yc4)

------
emit_time
I worked for a trucking company for a few weeks during two summers in college.
I did Manhattan deliveries once, which meant going in the middle of the night
~9pm - ~5am and doing the deliveries to avoid spending all day in traffic.

Was definitely an interesting experience.

------
wilsonrocks
Literally thought this was about npm before I'd parsed the headline.

------
Merrill
If it becomes a real problem, the comments in this thread indicate that there
are feasible solutions.

However, no incipient problem that requires political action is ever solved
until it becomes urgent.

------
brooklyntribe
When a front-page NYTs story says "CHAOS" in the title, you know there are a
zillion opportunities hidden in that story. Just a heads up. :-)

------
antpls
It looks like an ecological disaster by reading the title.

I couldn't read the article because it asked me to "login".

~~~
jwilk
Archived copy without paywall:

[https://archive.is/0n6kc](https://archive.is/0n6kc)

------
Bubbadoo
I hate going to the store. Love ordering online. Besides, isn't AMZN looking
at drone delivery? Of course, if that becomes the norm, we'll be seeing
articles about drone congestion in the skies over Manhattan.

------
rolltiide
I feel like NYC could use the trains again for much of this

Its what the highline was for after all

------
hos234
So basically the Russians can order staples to a few hundred carefully chosen
locations and brings Cities to a standstill. No ICBMs necessary. Good to know.

~~~
tzs
Something like that has been done before, although it wasn't the Russians. It
was a guy winning a bet [1].

> On 27 November, at five o'clock in the morning, a sweep arrived to sweep the
> chimneys of Mrs Tottenham's house. The maid who answered the door informed
> him that no sweep had been requested, and that his services were not
> required. A few moments later another sweep presented himself, then another,
> and another; twelve in all. After the last of the sweeps had been sent away,
> a fleet of carts carrying large deliveries of coal began to arrive, followed
> by a series of cakemakers delivering large wedding cakes, then doctors,
> lawyers, vicars and priests summoned to minister to someone in the house
> they had been told was dying. Fishmongers, shoemakers, and over a dozen
> pianos were among the next to appear, along with "six stout men bearing an
> organ". Dignitaries, including the Governor of the Bank of England, the Duke
> of York, the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Lord Mayor of London also
> arrived. The narrow streets soon became severely congested with tradesmen
> and onlookers. Deliveries and visits continued until the early evening,
> bringing a large part of London to a standstill.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berners_Street_hoax](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berners_Street_hoax)

~~~
hos234
:) That was hilarious. Hook is my new hero.

------
objektif
According to elitist NYT only the old rich settlers of manhattan who own multi
million dollar apartments and 1000$ a month parking spot are entitled to have
a car and drive in the city. Thats why they are against Uber and Lyft as well.

~~~
semiotagonal
According to the article, much of the negative impact is being felt in poorer
neighborhoods where the trucks concentrate around the storage facilities.

