
Terror management theory - _Microft
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terror_management_theory
======
baron_harkonnen
What's really interesting to me that psychology twitter seems to have a rabid
hatred for TMT which I find really strange since, at the very least, Becker's
book (the Denial of Death) lays out a pretty reasonable foundation (much more
reasonably than the vast majority of psych papers I've read) for a lot of
human psychological behavior.

Becker's view is pretty straight forward: We cannot incorporate a true
understanding of our inevitable death into our psyche and function, so
basically a huge amount of the complexity of our psychology is based in ways
our mind is able to divert accepting this reality. When I was younger I though
"fear of death" was a wildly over blown notion (I remember reading Delillo's
White Noise and thinking "is death that scary?"). But as I got older, and
started having friends die, I realized that in youth I was just much more
deeply in denial of death. Needless to say I think Becker makes a good point.

For me, the violent reaction by the psychology community against TMT seems to
only add validity to Becker's idea. We really can't deal with the reality of
our own personal death, and that is so strong that on an intellectual level we
immediately was to laugh off the idea so that we don't have to face that this
might even be the case.

~~~
thedstrat
What does it actually mean to “be in denial of death” though? How does our
mind divert accepting this reality? I’ve never experienced that; it sounds
somewhat dramatic.

~~~
on_and_off
There is an excellent "hidden brain" podcast episode about TMT.

It is not conscious.

One of the consequences is that it makes you want to belong to a group and
makes you chastise people that go against its moral norms. One of the
experiments was to determine the amount of an amend (or was it bail?) a
prostitute would have have to pay.

The expected amount is $100 and that's what the control experiment got, but if
you remind the judge of their own mortality before asking that question, the
median amount jumps to $400.

edit : link to the expy :
[http://people.uncw.edu/ogler/Experimental/TM%201.pdf](http://people.uncw.edu/ogler/Experimental/TM%201.pdf)

~~~
orhmeh09
The authors are very liberal in what they consider as evidence for their
theory. The first experiment, with the judges, relies on a sample size of 22,
from which any sort of analysis of variance is pretty suspect--the partial eta
squared effect size confidence interval at a = .05 ranges between nearly zero
and more than .4. The second experiment has a similarly wide CI on the effect
size. The article claims to have provided robust, data-based evidence of TMT,
but the experiments that followed from the earlier ones must be judged in
consideration of those earlier ones, which puts into question the coverage of
alternative explanations.

Consider this claim:

"The major finding of Experiment 1 was that, as predicted,reminding subjects
of their mortality led them to recommendhigher bonds for an accused
prostitute. According to terror management theory, moral principles are part
of the culturalanxiety-buffer that protects individuals from anxiety concern-
ing their vulnerability and mortality. Transgressions againstthese standards
implicitly threaten the integrity of the anxiety-buffer and thus engender
negative reactions toward the trans-gressor. Inducing subjects to think about
their mortality pre-sumably increased their need for faith in their values,
and thus increased their desire to punish the moral transgressor"

The experiment, to them, is confirmation of their theory, but this hardly
follows as a parsimonious explanation that emerges by eliminating alternative
explanations.

Frankly, I find the article absurd, and I have difficulty taking the theory
seriously. Then again, I only have an undergraduate's understanding of the
field.

------
airocker
“We have two lives, and the second begins when we realize we only have one.”
-- Confucius

------
pmoriarty
_" But on further consideration, when, after finding the cause of all our
ills, I have sought to discover the reason of it, I have found that there is
one very real reason, namely, the natural poverty of our feeble and mortal
condition, so miserable that nothing can comfort us when we think of it
closely._

 _Whatever condition we picture to ourselves, if we muster all the good things
which it is possible to possess, royalty is the finest position in the world.
Yet, when we imagine a king attended with every pleasure he can feel, if he be
without diversion, and be left to consider and reflect on what he is, this
feeble happiness will not sustain him; he will necessarily fall into
forebodings of dangers, of revolutions which may happen, and, finally, of
death and inevitable disease; so that if he be without what is called
diversion, he is unhappy, and more unhappy than the least of his subjects who
plays and diverts himself._

 _Hence it comes that play and the society of women, war, and high posts, are
so sought after. Not that there is in fact any happiness in them, or that men
imagine true bliss to consist in money won at play, or in the hare which they
hunt; we would not take these as a gift. We do not seek that easy and peaceful
lot which permits us to think of our unhappy condition, nor the dangers of
war, nor the labour of office, but the bustle which averts these thoughts of
ours, and amuses us._

 _Hence it comes that men so much love noise and stir; hence it comes that the
prison is so horrible a punishment; hence it comes that the pleasure of
solitude is a thing incomprehensible. And it is in fact the greatest source of
happiness in the condition of kings, that men try incessantly to divert them,
and to procure for them all kinds of pleasures._

 _The king is surrounded by persons whose only thought is to divert the king,
and to prevent his thinking of self. For he is unhappy, king though he be, if
he think of himself._

 _This is all that men have been able to discover to make themselves happy.
And those who philosophise on the matter, and who think men unreasonable for
spending a whole day in chasing a hare which they would not have bought,
scarce know our nature. The hare in itself would not screen us from the sight
of death and calamities; but the chase which turns away our attention from
these, does screen us. "_

Blaise Pascal, 1670

------
rinchik
Interesting, "Terror management theory" is not what i expected it to be.
Probably influenced by the modern history and current dynamics, I didn't
expect it to be about evolutionary psychology or death-related cognitions, I
expected macro-economics and political theory.

~~~
H8crilA
Well according to that theory things like nation states or big economic
interests or religions exist because of death anxiety. So yeah, going to a
political rally or protesting civil rights abuses even if you're not abused,
participating in wars, etc. is triggered by death anxiety and the need to do
"something more".

 _" We go out of our course to make ourselves uncomfortable; the cup of life
is not bitter enough to our palate, and we distill superfluous poison to put
into it, or conjure up hideous things to frighten ourselves at, which would
never exist if we did not make them."_

Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds, Charles Mackay,
1841

~~~
rinchik
> things like nation states or big economic interests or religions exist
> because of death anxiety

Interesting, it makes sense on the surface but not if you dig dipper. I doubt
that this fear has ANY impact on nation states or big economics, fear of death
is very well situated and certain conditions must be met to trigger it,
meaning it's not predictable, not constant, and can not be a major driver in
global politics or economics. Sex and mating on the other hand, is a
completely different story, I find the idea of sex being the major factor,
influencer, and driver behind global trends and economics a lot more plausible
(I'm a Freud's fan)

~~~
v64
> I find the idea of sex being the major factor, influencer, and driver behind
> global trends and economics a lot more plausible (I'm a Freud's fan)

Sex and death are often viewed in opposition. Psychotherapist Esther Perel has
described eroticism as "an antidote to death" and the essay "Why Men Love War"
[1] describes the use of sex by soldiers to forget about the death and
destruction around them. TMT would argue that the influence of sex in society
is precisely due to its effectiveness at distracting us from death.

[1]
[https://public.wsu.edu/~hughesc/why_men_love_war.htm](https://public.wsu.edu/~hughesc/why_men_love_war.htm)

~~~
rinchik
Oh nice! Great argument! But correlation does not imply causation. When you
are talking about feared solders, you are most definitely talking about a war.
Wars are about the assertion, or defense of the right to power (mostly
done/triggered by political elites), and there can not be more sexual thing
other than power, even pre-historically, we can agree that power gives you
freedom, freedom of choosing your mate. It gives you options. Gyms, healthy
diets, financial success, fashion, entertainment, all these are driven by sex,
by desire, desire to mate. Sex is not about distraction, sex is about power.
when we are talking about politics or macro-economics, fear of death is not
relevant or even considered at all.

Your argument actually confirms how powerful sex is. A lot more powerful than
what we give it credit for.

~~~
solidsnack9000
Association does not imply causation either. Your entire argument is simply
association. You say soldiers and then you associate war; you say war and then
you associate power; you say power and then you associate sex. What you are
not being plain about is that you choose each association. You could have
chosen another; there is no reason offered for why we have to consider this
particular chain of associations.

This is how so much psychoanalysis worked, by the way, and is part of why that
school lost credibility.

Your final point, turning the commenters argument around on itself, is a
masterful example of rhetoric but not of argument or explanation. Of course,
you leave open the question of why sex is important to us; of what it draws
its importance from.

~~~
rinchik
That is a great dissection of my comment but it does not provide any reason to
doubt my arguments other than a falsy appeal to an authority (psychoanalysis..
right, the thing that "failed").

I have made some argumentative choices strictly because I find those visual
and colorful within the scope and the nature of the discussions on the
"interents".

Sex is the major driver behind evolutionary dynamics in nation states, and
macro-economics, and I have yet to see any evidence suggesting otherwise.

And hereby I "masterfully" shift the burden of proof onto yourself,
SolidSnack9000.

Unless you have a solid argument, we can dismiss your comment as a "dissection
of banality", an argument for the sake of the said argument.

------
sysbin
TMT exists because of the delusion people have from thinking free will is a
real thing. Once the illusion of having free will breaks, understanding of how
death will come and just how every event happens in your life happens by fate.
Although, I think my fear of death went away when thinking about infinity and
how the universe can repeat the conditions that made this very life occur for
eternity.

------
jger15
Denial of Death by Ernest Becker is a great read.

~~~
dang
I read it (well, parts) on a long plane ride recently. It's an interesting
book—very 1970s and very much looking back to the existential psychotherapists
and psychoanalysts of the mid-20th century. I do not say that as a bad thing,
on the contrary.

What surprised me most is how big a role Otto Rank plays in it. I only knew of
Rank as the originator of the birth trauma theory and thought he was a minor
disciple of Freud. Becker regards Rank as the greatest figure in the tradition
after Freud if not greater. It made me want to learn more about Rank's work.

~~~
9214
Rank's "The Myth of the Birth of the Hero" elaborates what Becker meant by
"society as a heroic system", to a certain degree. I myself still in pursue of
"Art & Artist" paper copy, regarded as his magnum opus.

------
Razengan
At the core, every sentient being loves being alive, and every mind wishes to
be immortal, and not be lonely.

All the icky crap comes from knowing that can't be.

The subconscious dread of death is also a form of the Fear of Missing Out. How
much cool tech and new discoveries will there be after us? I for one cannot
cope with the possibility that I may never get to see a proper ending to Game
of Thrones or a good Dungeons & Dragons movie.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_of_missing_out](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_of_missing_out)

~~~
zaat
>At the core, every sentient being loves being alive, and every mind wishes to
be immortal, and not be lonely.

This is a strong universal claim about a fact, and I'm pretty sure that it is
not true. While probably generally true for young people, research on older
people suggest that not everyone wishes to be immortal and some are actually
in peace with the approaching end of their life.

Just one result from a quick search:
[https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=info:doi/10.137...](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0150686)

~~~
Razengan
> * While probably generally true for young people, research on older people
> suggests that not everyone wishes to be immortal*

Exactly, by very definition of getting "older", they already know it's damn
well not going to happen. They feel their frailty and corporeal limitations,
and have lost other people to mortality, so they learn to cope with it, via
the very topic of this post: Terror management or whatever you want to call
it.

I said at the core, because the purpose of any mind is to, well, mind. If a
mind wishes to cease to exist, it's because it's unable to attain its desires
and knows it will never have enough time (for some, to even find a desire in
the first place.)

I've always been fairly morbid myself. If given a choice, I'd choose to be
immortal or never have come into existence at all, rather than this temporal
teaser.

Like the comment below by rinchik [0], our global culture encourages every
mind to .. _succumb._ We're discouraged from feeling, from the core essence of
sentient existence.

[0]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21298809](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21298809)

------
AmphibianTree
This was pretty good …

[https://www.npr.org/2019/09/13/760599683/were-all-gonna-
die-...](https://www.npr.org/2019/09/13/760599683/were-all-gonna-die-how-fear-
of-death-drives-our-behavior)

------
phkahler
The word suicide does not appear on that wikipedia page. I'm curious how that
phenomenon fits with TMT being all about death avoidance. It seems like
something that should be covered.

------
magwa101
Love it, agree with it, can't face death, no fucking way. Motivates me to work
out every day.

------
jariel
To the extent that people believe that they are part of a much greater whole,
then this takes on an entirely different context.

------
vearwhershuh
Terror Management Theory is recursive.

------
carapace
If God is a stranger, Death is an enemy. When God is a Friend, Death is a
friend.

------
sillysaurusx
Hi HN. I’m feeling sad today. I just wanted to say that I hope all of you are
having a good weekend and working on interesting projects or just enjoying
life.

Be good to yourselves!

~~~
rinchik
[https://www.talkspace.com/](https://www.talkspace.com/) is for feeling sad,
not HN.

HNers are here for the intellectual stimuli and thus may not give you what you
are looking for.

~~~
aloknnikhil
I think it's ok to be human for a minute, even for HN.

~~~
stallmanite
Much like Stack Overflow I think HN could actually be more useful if it
lightened up a little. It needn’t instantly degenerate to reddit if a joke or
feelings are allowed.

