
How I Ended Up In Solitary After Calling 911 For Help - kf
https://medium.com/p/9f53ef6a1c10/
======
yardie
After reading the first paragraph I already knew where this was headed.

White America welcome to black America. You'll be arrested for nothing at all.
The first time it happens you'll be really upset and threaten to sue, and file
a police report. And when you do there will be some sort of roadblock, they
won't have the forms, the officer in question wasn't on shift that night, the
detective is quite hostile to you, the victim.

You'll learn what I've learned. Don't trust the police for shit. All of the
things I've listed I've done and it only made life difficult until I left for
college.

~~~
pessimizer
As a black programmer, I remember the cliche about problems and regular
expressions in my head as "regular expressions are like calling the cops."

That's unfair to regular expressions, though, because I actually have seen
them solve a problem before. Cops improving a situation? Never seen it.

~~~
RMacy
Cops are in a weird place. People don't like them until they need them. I work
with a lot of cops and most of them are good (and yes they can occasionally
get overreaching) but that generalization widens the divide between on-duty
police officers and civilians. I would say if we treated them like I get
treated being part time Military (hand shaken, dinners, etc) that they will be
better people. You'll also see less of this.

Humans like positive situations, they like being praised, they like feeling
loved and needed. They will defend the things they hold dear.

~~~
unethical_ban
But I don't think the military should get the worship it does, and cops are
supposed to be civilians and neighbors, not soldiers.

People don't hate on EMTs and firemen. You know why? Those people don't shoot
your dog, beat you and arrest you when you look at them the wrong way.

Until there is a STANDARD of good cops throwing out bad cops and NOT facing
retribution;

Until there is an established, effective and formal method of oversight and
accountability for verifiable acts of police brutality and false arrest,

I will not invite any police officer to my home until I've known them for
quite some time.

\---

Final remark, To your comment directly: Officers need to change their behavior
first. This isn't going to be resolved by people loving cops in the hopes
they'll get in a better mood. 'They' need to remember they are 'us'.

~~~
Glide
Are there some countries where the daily interaction between police and
citizens is not antagonistic?

In the States most of the interaction with that I witness police is negative:
get pulled over for speeding, ticketed, etc. Even when they're doing sobriety
checkpoints on St. Patrick's day, they're inconveniencing people who are
responsible.

If the daily interactions between citizens and cops are like this it'll be
very difficult to get people to change behavior.

------
kremlin
I remember, once, a very cynical person telling me not to call the cops, in
any circumstance, unless mine or someone else's survival or long-term well
being is completely dependent on it. If you see someone shot dead in the
street, for example, don't call the cops; leave. You're the first suspect if
you do anything else, and you'll be treated like one.

I was very put out by this attitude. I'm starting to wonder if it's perhaps
quite realistic.

I don't know what the cynic would have suggested in this situation. I don't
believe he would have said, 'leave her to fend for herself,' but perhaps to
call a hospital directly, or ask her to call a family member or something, I
don't know.

Police are dangerous. They have too much power and not enough brains. I'm an
optimist; I think there must be some possible infrastructure that incentivises
police to be good, and incentivises everyone in the system to weed out those
who are not. The current system doesn't resemble that remotely, and for now,
perhaps the cynic is right.

~~~
owenjones
While I was a student living in a "gentrifying" part of the city, I once went
outside to discover my car was full of bullets. Several in the hood, several
through the windows, one in the rear tire and most disconcertingly one in the
driver side headrest.

When I called the police and the investigator came, I could tell I was
instantly suspect #1. He began grilling me lengthily about my whereabouts the
night before and who I lived with.

An officer in blue joined as well and they were basically threatening to
confiscate my car until I started talking about getting a lawyer.

Of course this situation is nowhere near the authors in terms of harm or even
potential harm, but it definitely showed me that ANY interaction with the
police has the potential to go VERY badly for you no matter what.

~~~
rayiner
He assumed you were a gang member and the shooting was gang related. Which
probably isn't a bad heuristic. Most of the time when gangs shoot up a rival
gang members car, they don't accidentally get the wrong one.

~~~
lhc-
Something tells me that in those cases, the gang members don't usually call
the cops to investigate it.

------
josh2600
I know Peretz personally and he's one of the most rational people I've ever
met. There's some question as to whether he should've left the scene or not
and I think there's some discussion to be had there, but what happened
afterwards is unquestionably wrong.

This is who the police stripped naked and put in jail:
[http://www.brandeis.edu/magazine/2013/spring/featured-
storie...](http://www.brandeis.edu/magazine/2013/spring/featured-
stories/afghan.html)

This is not a person we should fear. I understand that on some level putting
Peretz in jail was a reasonable response to him not leaving the scene, but the
abuse and brutality of what followed are just plain wrong.

I've heard other thoughts in this thread about not trusting police or that all
cops should be killed and I find those to be childish nonsense. For us to have
a free and effective society, the rule of law is important and should apply
equally to all. I know this isn't always the case but it is the goal. Wishing
harm onto authority figures simply muddies the waters.

What I want, and what I think all should want, is justice. The best outcome
from Peretz's suffering would be reform and we should work towards that end.

~~~
javajosh
The police cannot be trusted, and that is not childish nonsense. It is a
rational response to the fact that the police consistently act like thugs, and
the problem is only getting worse. One of the most important problems is that
the mechanisms for righting these wrongs are almost wholly ineffective or out-
of-reach. Peretz talks a little about that in his piece.

The most practical thing you can take away from this is to _not trust the
police_. Reform will take years, and in that time you are at risk. Reform is a
great sentiment - but what specifically can we do? I would say: you can at
least think about the nature of the systematic problem that takes away
essentially all accountability from city police departments. Why does it seem
like the public is no longer outraged when police abuse occurs? Why does it
seem like government officials don't admit any wrongdoing or apologize for
anything anymore? Why are lawsuits so expensive?

What it seems like to me is that, somehow, the public has been convinced of
their ineffectiveness. They have been cowed into submissiveness. Besides,
there are bigger fish to fry, and _I_ haven't been abused by the police. It's
just not that big of a problem. And the monotonically increasing complexity of
government has provided amazing levels of defensive cover for bad actors. It's
an almost perfect shield of immunity to prosecution and incredibly expensive
litigation barrier-to-entry. "Reform" sounds nice - but what do you think we
should do? And in the meantime, are you really advocating that the police
should be trusted in the absence of any reform? That's childish nonsense.

~~~
Zancarius
> Reform will take years, and in that time you are at risk. Reform is a great
> sentiment...

Not to sound overly pessimistic, but "reform" isn't usually how citizens
extricate themselves from a police state. Totalitarian governance is
inherently insular and well protected from peaceful reform, using the state
monopoly on violence to maintain and cultivate its will.

The antithesis of peaceful reform also conveniently starts with "re," but I
can't seem to remember what it is... Re... rev-o-something, I think. ;)

~~~
javajosh
We don't have a police state! We have one of the shittiest justice systems in
the world that protects bad actors and gives our police unlimited power to
abuse their office without fear of repurcussion. However, freedom of speech is
still very well protected, and therein lies our hope for peaceful resolution.

And you know what, if Aung Yung Suu-Ki is any indication, even if we did live
in a totalitarian state, there would _still_ be hope for a peaceful
resolution. And that's important because I don't believe that a state born of
brutality can be anything other than brutal.

~~~
thaumasiotes
> I don't believe that a state born of brutality can be anything other than
> brutal.

This is kind of a funny sentiment. Can you name a state that wasn't born of
brutality?

~~~
csense
Um...we peacefully purchased Alaska from the Russians.

~~~
wutbrodo
I'm pretty sure that that's not the sense that "state" is being used here.
He's talking about sovereign states; Alaska is subordinate to America (a
sovereign state) which is evident in the fact that it was purchased by
America.

------
neumann
I've made a few 911 calls, but the last one was pretty surreal.

My partner and I were walking past a high rise where people go to score and in
front of us on the pavement we saw a man and a woman trying to wake up someone
who seemed on the verge of OD. He wasn't responding, the two were frantic, and
everybody was watching from the other side of the road. She was screaming at
him and us, saying he is ODed, and get an ambulance, so I called emergency,
asked for ambos, didn't give my name, and described that a guy was unconscious
and needed medical help. 20secs later we heard the sirens, and we saw the cops
screaming down the road in the distance, no ambulance in sight. The man
started dragging the woman away, and the previously comatose looking man
started re-animating in front of us, trying to get up with great difficulty.
With stupendous effort he rose to his feet and then through sheer willpower
got his bearings and tried walking on the sidewalk. All together 3 cop cars
screeched into the intersection, I put my phone on silent, and like the Truman
Show every pedestrian did their bit and started ambling and chatting as if
nothing had happened. My partner and I ambled on while my phone rang silently
in my pocket and the previously ODed looking guy should have got an OSCAR as
he walked (slightly stiffly) in a straight line past the cops. The 6 cops
looked around the intersection, observing people and running around looking
behind walls for a minute and then sped off. No ambos in sight.

~~~
mitochondrion
What the fuck. Where do you live?

~~~
neumann
Melbourne/Australia

------
maratd
When a cop gives you instructions to leave, you leave. Not because the cop is
right, but because this shit happens. And if you're naive enough to think that
this shit won't happen to you, try not complying with a cop's instructions.
Doesn't matter where in the US you happen to be. It's that simple.

Look, here's a simple rule. In every interaction with the police, ask if you
can leave. If you can, count your lucky stars and leave. If you can't leave,
determine if you can get out of the interaction with a ticket or a summons. If
you can, work toward that outcome. Regardless, don't tell them your life
story. Keep it brief and if they start asking about things that relate to you,
exercise your constitutional right to shut up.

Cops are not your friends. Their job is to enforce order. Not to be your best
bud.

~~~
discardorama
"In every interaction with the police, ask if you can leave. If you can, count
your lucky stars and leave. "

"count your lucky stars" is not what I'm paying my taxes for.

~~~
retroafroman
I don't think he's saying 'be happy with the outcome', he's saying 'save your
own skin and scramble, given the chance'. While us taxpayers have plenty of
rights to be angry at being poorly treated by civil servants, getting into a
fight with someone at the bottom will do us no good. Stories like this are the
evidence.

------
rdl
It's kind of unfair to paint all the police as the same -- it varies both by
officer (hard to predict) and by department (easy to predict). I try to deal
strictly with California Highway Patrol and various Peninsula PDs.

BART PD, SFPD (and SFFD), EPA PD are pretty horrible. I'd go out of my way to
avoid contact with them, be wary, and use protection (a lawyer).

OPD is bad too, but by virtue of being a rich white guy I'm not really at much
risk from them (except through inaction). Oakland Fire is surprisingly good.

I've called 911 for road obstructions, traffic accidents and the like hundreds
of times. I've stopped for some fairly serious accidents before anyone else
got there, called 911 and gave an accurate and detailed report , set up flares
and blocked with my car (when victims were ejected from the car), first aid,
etc.

Never once have I had a problem. In the cases where someone was seriously
injured and I had better medical training than the CHP who arrived, I waited
until the paramedics and ambulance got there and talked to the paramedics
before leaving.

Taking this story at face value, these SFPD officers need to no longer be
police officers.

~~~
vonklaus
Glossing over some of your assumptions, I find I agree whole-heartedly with
your conclusion.

~~~
rdl
SFPD seems to have gotten a lot worse between 1999 and today. All the good
officers I knew back in 1998-2000 were in their late 40s, so probably retired.
I don't know what has happened to the department otherwise.

~~~
liotier
As the article's dialog mentioned, I suspect that they have been priced out of
the area by real-estate value increase - the good ones may have found postings
in locations more favourable to people employed in the salary range of a
police officer.

~~~
seestheday
This might be the core of the issue.

If businesses complain that they can't find any good developers for $60K/year,
we say that they should be paid appropriately.

I hear a lot about teachers in the states being terrible, and I also hear a
lot about teachers in the states being paid poorly (because it should be a
calling or some other bullshit reason).

Is it the same with cops?

I live in Canada and feel like we don't have it nearly as bad. Teachers are
paid very well, and it is a difficult job to get. Cops are paid reasonably
well and it is a difficult job to get.

------
cdelsolar
One thousand good cops do not make up for one bad cop. Cops nearly ruined my
life in 2006. I will write about it someday, but suffice it to say, I am out
at least $30K (didn't bother doing the math because it's too depressing) and
still paying for something I ABSOLUTELY HAD NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH. My only
mistake was saying anything besides "I would like to speak with a lawyer" over
and over.

Do not speak to cops, ever. They are not there to help you or find out the
truth.

~~~
johngalt
The issue with the idea 'some good cops vs some bad cops' is that the good
ones will still protect and aid the bad ones.

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
> they 'good ones' will still protect and aid the 'bad ones'.

Those aren't good cops.

~~~
malka
but are those true scotish ?

------
n8agrin
For those curious, this is the law which allows you to sue the police: 42
U.S.C. § 1983

"Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom,
or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or
causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person
within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges,
or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the
party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding
for redress, except that in any action brought against a judicial officer for
an act or omission taken in such officer’s judicial capacity, injunctive
relief shall not be granted unless a declaratory decree was violated or
declaratory relief was unavailable. For the purposes of this section, any Act
of Congress applicable exclusively to the District of Columbia shall be
considered to be a statute of the District of Columbia."

More here:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enforcement_Act_of_1871_(third_...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enforcement_Act_of_1871_\(third_act\))

------
rayiner
The narrative is totally not credible. There are gaps where its obvious that
the author did something to elicit a reaction, but what that was is omitted
from the story. My guess would be that the author was being a smart ass, and
given the drinking more belligerent than he recalls in retrospect. No, the
cops shouldn't have roughed him up just for being a pompous asshole,[1] but
the author should tell the whole story.

[1] "My instinct was to make this distinction go away, to show them I know our
neighborhood is more complicated than that. To connect on human terms. I told
them that it was an early stage startup; I’m doing this because I feel it’s a
way to make the world around me better, to bring people joy through better
food." My god imagine listening to this self indulgent tripe at 1 am while
keeping your cool.

~~~
anateus
Just to provide a data point: I know the OP personally. I can't be sure that
there are no omissions, but him saying things like that is not surprising and
it doesn't feel like there are holes. His particular demeanor and pattern of
speech would likely make it seem not so much pompous as just eccentric. He's
very obviously earnest, and not in the naive way often encountered in the Bay
Area these days. Trying to show you are "an upstanding citizen" in some way is
an expression of privilege: the expectation that you can demonstrate
membership of a group that is not automatically assumed to be guilty. To me,
one of the core points of this story is that you can never assume you won't be
perceived as a member of a group not so advantaged.

Were I not very familiar with him, an interpretation such as yours would
definitely be one of my high probability estimates, which is what compelled me
to add my views. Take it as you will.

~~~
ForHackernews
> not in the naive way often encountered in the Bay Area these days.

Really? Because reading this, he comes across as the epitome of naivete. Are
people really this clueless about how to interact with cops?

FTR:
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik)

~~~
nkurz
I don't know him, but I doubt he is naive in the "believes in fairy tales and
doesn't understand how the world really works" manner that you suggest. Here's
a story about the author's background and how he ended up coaching basketball
in Afghanistan: [http://www.brandeis.edu/magazine/2013/spring/featured-
storie...](http://www.brandeis.edu/magazine/2013/spring/featured-
stories/afghan.html)

------
Gorbzel
> At this point, I’m left no choice but to present this case to the
> investigative court of public opinion, be it brave or foolish.

Um, no, you can leave it to an actual court of law by finding a good attorney
and filing a civil complaint. But until you find competent representation,
here's a piece of advice: for the love of god and your own well-being, learn
to STFU.

The story makes it clear OP has no idea when to stop talking and observe his
surroundings, even to his own detriment. Instead, he acted (and wrote) in such
a way where he's constantly assuming the role of a victim and then being
shocked when people treat him as such.

Remember folks, you have the right to remain silent in any interaction with
authorities (not just the police, pretty much only a judge can compel you to
speak), and your failure to do so only ever leads to a world of hurt.

~~~
ryguytilidie
Thanks for providing a nice example of a rock bottom terrible comment. Yes,
the problem with this person being beaten up, put in solitary and abused for
no reason simply comes down to their inability to shut up. If only they had
the wisdom to know that the police, who are paid by our tax dollars just HAVE
to beat you up and abuse you if you say anything they dislike. I mean, its not
as if they had a choice of whether they wanted to beat the person up or not,
they basically HAD TO! Because, you know, that person was mouthy.

"he acted (and wrote) in such a way where he's constantly assuming the role of
a victim"

What type of brain got you to the conclusion that this person was something
other than the victim here?

Look, I get your point that shutting up is a good idea, but we can't blame the
person for not shutting up, the police should be blamed for their actions. The
fact that we have people like you standing up for the police here makes me
think we probably have no chance as a society anymore.

~~~
rayiner
We can both blame the author for not shutting up and the police for not
responding reasonably to someone who was nothing more dangerous than a
smartass.

~~~
ryguytilidie
I would argue that the police deserve somewhere in the neighborhood of one
million times more blame for false imprisonment and beating than a civilian
deserves for, gasp, talking when they people they pay to protect them didnt
want them to talk.

~~~
Gorbzel
No problem, thanks for providing an example of the naiveté that underscores
way too many HN comments.

First off, I never said that there isn't a problem with the way the police
treated OP. In fact, I'm encouraging him to sue both the police department and
the officers personally for the way they treated him, which was clearly
unacceptable behavior. Translation: I want to see him get justice.

But I also am able to see nuance in a situation, which clearly you're lacking.
He might be a victim, but he's not blameless, insofar as: • Refused to pipe
down and leave the accident when ordered to by a police officer. • Continued
to instigate police officers who were securing the scene. • Yelled like a
crazy person while in a holding cell.

or, as I said in the parent comment: OP COMPLETELY FAILED TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF
HIS RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT AND AVOID AN ENCOUNTER WITH THE POLICE.

His behavior was unacceptable, and holding him to account for that as someone
who enjoys their constitutional rights and insists upon defending them in NO
WAY MAKES ME A POLICE APOLOGIST. Police aren't the only one who can trample
upon rights, those who fail to understand or abuse them are culpable as well.
The fact you don't understand that makes _me_ wonder if our free society held
together by liberty and a respect for the rule of law has any chance any more,
yet I'll remain an optimist.

~~~
ryguytilidie
You seem to have projected some bizarre stuff on my comment. I understand that
the OP failed to take advantage of their right to remain silent, I really do.
However, none of the things you say the person should be "blamed" for, should
EVER result in the punishment they got. The fact that you're not able to see
beyond "well they both fucked up" is pretty shocking really.

"His behavior was unacceptable, and holding him to account for that as someone
who enjoys their constitutional rights and insists upon defending them in NO
WAY MAKES ME A POLICE APOLOGIST."

"Holding him to account" in your book happens to mean beating the shit out of
him and putting him in a cell, whereas I simply don't think someone who is
yelling things the police don't like deserves this treatment. If that makes me
naive, I'll take it.

"But I also am able to see nuance in a situation, which clearly you're
lacking."

This is one of the dumbest things I've ever read. Because you were able to see
subtle details like "this person wasn't being polite!" only super wisdom
filled you is able to understand that the police were right to beat them up
and put them in solitary. I genuinely cannot believe that someone could make
such an utter shit argument and then have the gall to blame the OTHER person
for a lack of understanding of the nuances, like yourself, who is of course
brilliant.

------
GuiA
Necessary link to Pr. Duane's lecture:
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc)

Don't talk to the police. Ever.

~~~
sneak
Don't pay taxes in places the cops are mostly criminals. Ever.

~~~
mahyarm
You can find shitty police behavior everywhere, including the EU, Germany and
Canada. The probability is just different.

~~~
rdl
"Mostly" speaks to probability.

------
Lagged2Death
It's high time to just make the cops wear video cameras. A whole lot of this
sort of crap could just vanish.

~~~
krisdol
That evidence will never be available to be used against cops.

This was in Texas. I don't recall the exact details. My bosnian friend was
racially profiled (as hispanic) by the police. He was ticketed after not
coming to a full stop, then arrested because the officer incorrectly assumed
that his real driver's license was fake and that he was not a legal citizen.
At the precinct, he was told some racist stuff by a working officer before
being put in the cell. A lawyer took up his case, asserting that the
conditions leading up to his arrest were not actually legal.

What happened then? On the books, he didn't exist. He supposedly never spent a
night in jail, was supposedly never arrested and taken in, the fees he paid
for bail were supposedly never received or requested, the surveillance camera
footage the night he was put in jail happened to be corrupted, and even _if_
he succeeded in getting the bail money back, he'd be out at least an
additional thousand for court an lawyer fees.

Needless to say, they didn't pursue the case further.

~~~
aeturnum
Some police departments wear them, and they dramatically (~80% iirc) reduce
complaints / reports by citizens. You can only have video footage go missing
so many times before it starts to get old for judges / the media / etc.

------
justizin
I had a similar experience, and honestly, I have been afraid to go to City
Hall and speak to the elected officials I have personally met many times
because I fear that my initial arrest for public intoxication while standing
outside a bar which I planned to take a cab home from, smoking a cigarette,
was retaliation for participating in protests, and that I will be retaliated
against worst. I happened to be out celebrating a new job, so making me miss
the last day of my old job was not much punishment, but I'd rather not go
through that again. Fortunately I was out with the manager of the restaurant
at my gym, who brought my bag to meet me the next morning, where I was able to
take a shower before going to sign onboarding paperwork.

I don't feel safe in San Francisco anymore.

------
herbig
Back in November, I was arrested in Brooklyn for running a red light on my
bike while on my way to work in Manhattan.

Normally you're given a ticket and let go, but in this instance, the officers
took issue with the fact that I was not carrying ID. Both officers told me
that I "could be arrested for not having ID." For clarification, I asked if it
was a city, state, or national law, and the officers adamantly maintained that
it was a state law. I, stupidly, thought to educate them on this
misconception, and one officer in particular decided to bring me in because
she "knows the laws and doesn't need to be told how to do [her] job."

I was brought into the local precinct (Brooklyn's 88th). When I arrived, both
officers denied saying I was required to carry ID when I asked the captain
about the law. Of course the captain confirmed that I was not required to
carry ID, but at that point it didn't really matter anyway. The charge was
failure to obey a traffic signal.

I was held in solitary confinement for 10 hours. During that time, the female
arresting officer would periodically come by to taunt me, and tell me that I
shouldn't have questioned her, and then threw a huge tantrum when I requested
not to be touched by her for fingerprinting. They sent another officer in to
do it, but for a moment, I honestly thought was going to beat the shit out of
me.

The other arresting officer, a guy of Filipino descent, noticed my Filipino
flag belt buckle when they were taking my belt (so I couldn't hang myself,
apparently). We talked about the country a bit (I was a volunteer there for 2
years) and to his credit he apologized to me, admitted that he was wrong about
the law, but said that there wasn't anything he could do now that I was in
there because the other officer wanted to make an example of me. I was,
curiously, allowed to keep my shoelaces.

The other officers that would walk by my urine soaked cell and ask why I was
there did not believe at first that I had been arrested for running a red
light. When I mentioned who the arresting officer was though, they all gave a
knowing sigh. One told me that she was not at all respected there, that she
had a huge temper, and that I should not have crossed her. One officer went
across the street and bought me a slice of pizza, which was nice.

Around 8pm, I was personally escorted by two other officers to a courthouse in
downtown Brooklyn, where I was retina scanned and placed in a holding cell
with around 10 other criminals. Charges ranged from domestic abuse to armed
robbery. One man was on the floor going through drug withdrawals. Everyone
scoffed at the idea that I was there because of a traffic violation, and
likely assumed I was making that up. I talked to my escorting officers a bit
and they also confirmed that my arresting officer was a bit of a joke at the
precinct, and that I had been unlucky.

While at the courthouse jail cell, the officer that was watching everyone at
one point began banging on the cell bars with his hands and yelling at the
inmates, calling them niggers and going on about how they're all in there
because they never had any fathers growing up. Some of the inmates laughed,
but others were visibly scared. When that calmed down and another officer came
by to drop off someone else, I told him what had happened and his only
response was "so?"

I was offered the chance to make a phone call, but the only number I even have
memorized anymore is my mother's, and despite knowing that my friends were
probably scared to death looking for me, I wasn't at the point of calling her.
She still does not know that any of this ever happened.

I was then given a chance to speak to my public defender through plated glass.
That took about 20 seconds. She basically told me this whole thing was
ridiculous, that I had likely pissed off an officer (I hadn't told her
anything) and that we were going to ask the judge to dismiss the charge and
that the judge would do so.

At 11pm I went before the judge for about 5 seconds and the charges were
dismissed and I was allowed to go home. Unfortunately, I first had to walk
back to the precinct to get my bike, keys, phone, etc. Luckily it wasn't too
cold.

I had thought that I was handling things fairly well, but when I arrived at
the precinct and was faced with the notion of going back in there, even as a
free person, I began vomiting in the garbage can beside the steps leading in.
Dehydration and stress were probably the causes, and for a moment I feared
being seen, in case they would arrest me again right there for something or
other.

My phone was dead, so I couldn't get ahold of anyone until I got home, but I
was too tired and afraid to get back on my bike, so I walked back to my
apartment. When I finally did get back on the grid, I had found that my
brother, girlfriend, and work colleagues had all been desperately looking for
me when I hadn't shown up to work, and had been calling hospitals and police
stations. They eventually did get a confirmation from the 88th precinct that I
was there, which of course no one relayed to me. My work was prepared to send
their lawyer down, but my brother talked them out of it, thinking that it
would likely make things worse for me inside (he was probably right, but go
work). I felt even worse for putting them through such an experience.

All told, I was in custody from around 10am to 11pm and I've learned a few
things on the inside. Knowing your rights doesn't matter. There are no
repercussions to any officer for anything they say or do. If they want to make
your life hell, they can and will. Carrying ID may not be required by law, but
it will save you a lot of hassle and explaining if you ever do have a run in
with the law. You can either exercise your right not to carry ID, but you put
yourself in danger of the wrath of an ignorant police force (I still don't
carry it). Also, don't run red lights on your bike.

~~~
gameshot911
I actually see a silver lining in this story. The _worst_ thing an officer of
the was able to do was inconvenience you for a day. Compare that to pretty
much another other time in recorded history, and indeed still many places
today, and you could have been locked up for far longer for pissing off
someone in an authority position.

Now obviously this is a ridiculous situation and the officer was on a
powertrip, but you did break the law and technically she was within her
privileges to bring you down to holding. Still, the fact that you encountered
pretty much the worst scenario possible and were only held up for a few hours
from start to finish is, to me, a sign that the system is working pretty damn
well.

~~~
maratd
> The worst thing an officer of the was able to do was inconvenience you for a
> day.

Wrong.

Job application. Have you ever been arrested? No job.

Mortgage application. Have you ever been arrested? No mortgage. No house.

Rental application. Have you ever been arrested? No apartment.

These are just a few places you will have the door slammed in your face. Now,
the OP was lucky, because the matter was dismissed, the arrest record
evaporates. If he was convicted of even the most minor criminal offense
because the judge was having a bad day too, his life is now _fucked_.

~~~
damian2000
Isn't the wording 'convicted of a crime' rather than 'arrested'... you could
be arrested, and then let go without being charged or convicted of anything.

~~~
abduhl
It's usually "convicted of a felony or alcohol related offense". Being
arrested usually has no negative impact on your job prospects unless you are
also charged and convicted (of a felony).

Arrest records do come up in the system when a background check is run as I
can vouch for personally. They also come up (in Colorado) with the initially
charged crime whether or not the charge was changed or dismissed. This has
never hampered my ability to obtain employment, loan, or a lease.

~~~
ryandrake
I have filled out job applications that ask if you have ever been arrested,
specifically clarifying "whether or not convicted".

Getting involved with "the system" in any way, even if you're not guilty,
appears to be a red flag for some employers.

------
discardorama
Those of you who are still in denial and think that this person did something
wrong, should read up about the Amelie leMoulac case. TL;DR: woman on a bike
gets run over by a truck. SFPD claims they couldn't find any surveillance
video, blames the cyclist and lets the trucker go. A couple of days later, an
SFBC (SF bike coalition) person decides to go around and ask the nearby
merchants; and finds a shop with surveillance video that shows trucker was at
fault.

Note also how the SFPD comes by and harasses the protestors, and puts other
bicyclists at risk by blocking the bike lane:
[http://sf.streetsblog.org/2013/08/21/at-safe-streets-
rally-s...](http://sf.streetsblog.org/2013/08/21/at-safe-streets-rally-sfpd-
blocks-bike-lane-to-make-point-of-victim-blaming/)
[http://sf.streetsblog.org/2013/08/23/sfbc-finds-what-sfpd-
di...](http://sf.streetsblog.org/2013/08/23/sfbc-finds-what-sfpd-didnt-video-
of-crash-that-killed-amelie-le-moullac/)

------
dmitrygr
Learn the lesson: police are never your friend, helping others WILL get you
punished eventually - all good deeds are punished in the long run, police can
and will do whatever they want to you with no repercussions. Keep your head
down and enjoy your free country.

~~~
BlackDeath3
I think that's a bit of an exaggeration, don't you?

~~~
dmitrygr
not at all this story is a great example of this, but there are others

~~~
BlackDeath3
Of course there are others. There are also many people having pleasant
experiences with cops every day - they don't make it to the top of Hacker
News.

~~~
drcube
Really? Who has pleasant experiences with cops besides other cops? Honest
question.

~~~
wwweston
I've certainly had enough negative interactions to make me very wary, but I
also remember some positive ones. Off the top of my head:

* An incident where I was driving and spun across a lane of traffic and off the road in a heavy snowstorm, very fortunately hitting nothing but a reflector post in the process. A highway patrolman stopped, checked to make sure no one was injured, congratulated us on being lucky, and encouraged us to be careful out there.

* An incident where I was being followed around -- no, pursued through -- town by a car I didn't recognize, and I called the dispatcher and eventually drove to the police station.

* A few incidents where I'd pulled off highways to sleep, and officers knocked on the window just to make sure everything was OK. One, when I told him why I was there said "Smartest person I've met tonight" (I suspect any highway patrol officer has seen more drowsy driving accidents than they care to).

* Incidents where I'd been hanging out in my car, using my laptop tethered to a cell phone, in a parking lot or neighborhood long enough to make someone in the neighborhood apparently uncomfortable. In two cases I remember, the officers were gently inquisitive, explained what was going on, ran a check on my plates/ID, and said I wasn't doing anything wrong but might want to consider moving on before too long.

* Incidents where there was nothing particularly positive about the interaction but the officers simply did their jobs and either issued reasonable instructions or a citation.

I've also had a number of incidents where this has gone somewhat less well
(attempts to escalate to a search of my car or a DUI investigation, weird and
menacing lines of questioning, threats to charge me with illegal
camping/vagrancy, occasional browbeatings, on-site detention with no
explanation, and at least one encounter where an angry officer was threatening
me with extralegal violence), so I understand it doesn't always go like this,
so I encourage reforms and increased accountability. But I also think it's
fair to remember appreciate the officers who acted reasonably, kindly, and
professionally.

~~~
marvin
I don't really get this. It's nice that many police officers do what they _get
paid to do_ , but what about the _three_ bad examples you cite, which were
probably abuses of power?

You cited five pleasant events, two where you were suspected of doing
something wrong and three which are abuses of power. A considerable amount of
your interactions with the police were abusive. So clearly there is a big,
systemic problem ehre.

------
janj
I posted this in another thread today but it's even more relevant here. We
need a way to track when police officers have violent interactions with the
public. We should be able to look up any officer and find their history of
abuse of authority if it exists to make it easier to identify patterns. We
can't trust these people with power if we can't hold them responsible. I would
love to help work on this with someone.

~~~
pmiller2
I'm interested in working on this as well. I've never been a victim of
violence by the police, but I've had a couple interactions that I mishandled
that didn't go well for me. My contact info is in my profile.

------
suprgeek
This comes from personal experience in the USA.

Never talk to/Interact with cops unless asked directly.

Never call 911 unless there is a threat to life, risk of serious imminent
injury to you or to family. If you have to do it for a bystander, call 911
ANON & LEAVE. The chances of tracking you down if you are truly uninvolved are
remote - OTOH if you hang around and expect a pat on the back....

The cops are generally working under totally different incentives than your
well-being. A surprisingly large number are also Bullies and Thugs on a power
trip.

The best outcome is that you are left alone - the worst is ...well you can
imagine many, many horrible things including loss of life.

------
JshWright
Why were the cops in charge of this scene at all?

Around here the ranking medical provider would have been in charge, and the
cops wouldn't have gotten involved unless they were asked to by EMS.

As a paramedic, I would be seriously pissed if a cop dragged a helpful
bystander away from my patient (for all I know they have useful information
that I need to know).

~~~
rapala
This was my first reaction as well. If a call comes in of a bicycling
accident, why would the 911 dispatcher send a fire truck and multiple police
squads to the scene?

~~~
rynes
In my city they always send both an ambulance and a fire truck when an
ambulance is requested. Perhaps they think that the caller may have forgot
something and they could always use the extra help.

------
sergiotapia
And this is why I fucking HATE COPS. I don't care if it's the few, this god
damn country-wide gang is a piece of shit and I will do everything I can to
avoid them and teach my two children about staying away as well.

Fuck these pigs.

~~~
BlackDeath3
It's really easy to focus on the bad ones, but good cops exist whether you
know it or not.

~~~
sergiotapia
Like I said, don't give two shits. The risk is too high. All pigs are evil to
me and I'll keep the hell away from them. If they abused a white woman in her
30's what the hell do you think they'll do to a latino like me? Pfff.

~~~
BlackDeath3
Your mistake is your idea of "they". They aren't all one.

I don't know that I can blame you for taking the "safe" approach and avoiding
police, but don't punish them for your irrationally-negative outlook.

~~~
kelnos
I don't find the parent's attitude irrational at all. If police brutality was
a rare unicorn-like event, then I could understand your point of view, but
it's not. Not even remotely so.

I've been lucky in that my interactions with police have ranged from
professionally neutral (mostly traffic cops) to indifferent and bored (cop at
a police station clearly not giving two shits that I'd just been mugged). (Of
course, me being a white male helps with this "luck".) But the stuff I hear
about makes me wonder: if I need the police at any point in time, what are my
chances of getting a cop that's helpful vs. one that's on a power trip and
wants to fuck with me?

I seriously wonder about that, and I seriously will think twice about calling
911 in an emergency. And _that 's_ the problem. It doesn't matter one bit what
the percentage is: maybe 0.00001% of cops are bad, and the rest are good. But
the _perception_ is that a significant portion of cops are just power-hungry
assholes who love being able to strap on a gun and show that they have
authority over you. Perception matters more than reality sometimes.

~~~
BlackDeath3
>Perception matters more than reality sometimes.

Hence, the irrationality comment. Somebody who has one pleasant experience
with a cop has had a good day. Somebody who has had one friend murdered by a
cop probably _never_ trusts _any_ police again.

~~~
kelnos
And I think that's rational. A pleasant experience with a cop should be the
absolute norm and should be unremarkable. Having a friend who is murdered by a
cop is so far in the negative tally column that I don't think there's any
recovering from that.

~~~
BlackDeath3
But treating _all_ police like scumbags because of one bad encounter isn't
rational. It's a response born out of fear, and while fear can be useful it
isn't always rational.

------
thatthatis
You need to watch this:
[http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc](http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc)

Once you're in custody you're in a system built to treat psychopaths and
killers. The system isn't built to recognize your unique and brilliant
capabilities. It's there to treat the lowest common denominator.

Reduce your surface area. Recognize that you are dealing with a system built
to function by 1700s timescales.

This guy admits he screamed over and over that he wanted to see a doctor. He
not only made himself a problem to be dealt with, he acted in such a way that
they could defensibly put him in the psych ward. "he was screaming the same
phrase over and over."

Reduce your surface area and remember the system is built to deliver eventual
justice as often as possible, not immediate justice in your case.

------
snitko
I feel very sorry for the OP. Unfortunately, this is what happens when you're
not a customer of the organization that protects you. Police officers will not
be paid less if they mistreat the people they're supposed to protect. To get
them to justice, as was mentioned in another comment, would cost tons of money
and time and there's no guarantee of any kind of result. They know it.

The only places where police is actually humane and does mostly good are
Scandinavian countries. My explanation of that phenomenon is that those
countries are small (both in territory and number of citizens) and are,
indeed, operate like small companies. Thus it's relatively easy to keep them
accountable. Of course, many other small countries have very corrupt police,
so this can only account for a part of the explanation.

My opinion is that where there is no market mechanism to effectively
communicate customer satisfaction, you will see abuse. People see it again and
again, yet they keep paying taxes to sponsor this shit, because they are being
told there will be anarchy or the poor wouldn't have the money to hire a
private police protection. I wonder if the poor would actually be better off
without police "protection" at all. After all, they are mostly after people
who conduct victimless crimes and are never there when a woman is getting
raped or someone's being mugged. That's not protection, that's extortion.

~~~
fulafel
> only places where police is actually humane and does mostly good are
> Scandinavian countries

Research does not seem to bear this out. See eg this Gallup study:

[http://www.gallup.com/poll/102346/many-world-citizens-
trust-...](http://www.gallup.com/poll/102346/many-world-citizens-trust-
neighbors-more-than-police.aspx)

Of the top 10 "public trusts the police", only 1 or 2 are Scandinavian
countries (definitions vary whether Finland is part of Scandinavia).

~~~
BugBrother
Afaik, Swedish police don't take bribes and generally don't commit criminal
acts. At least not if compared with most other countries.

The main problem with Sweden is that the police is trusted to drink coffee
instead of working. :-)

(That was a simplification, the Swedish police seems to mainly have
organisational issues. The Finnish police is one of the most trusted societal
functions there. I have never understood why a Swedish government won't head
hunt top level Finnish police and fire the locals... Just the threat ought to
be enough.)

~~~
zurn
The point is that people have relatively good relationship with police in many
countries -- as nice as Sweden is, it doesn't appear in the top 10. The very
good standard of Scandinavia is common.

------
lettergram
I would press charges. I have seen multiple times police being shady,
including one time when I was pulled over and told I could either pay the
officer $40, or go into the court house for an $80 ticket. Supposedly I was
speeding the road back, but I didn't even drive on the road they were talking
about...

Another time I turned in $2,000 I found in an envelope and asked when I could
pick it up if no one claimed it. Called back a couple weeks later and they had
no record of it.

Point being, police officers (in my opinion) are no better than anyone else,
they could be good or bad, but you need to help keep them in check.

~~~
rtkwe
You didn't get a receipt did you? Any time cops take anything get a receipt...

~~~
lettergram
I wrote a report, figured that was enough... oops.

~~~
rtkwe
If you'd gotten a copy of the report, with the receiving officer's signature
that would have been a good start.

------
ChuckFrank
I know this is probably going to get buried, but I believe that this is part
of a larger scam. I believe that the Police receive kick backs from the bail
bonds men, in the form of institutional charitable contributions at the very
least, if not outright cash kick backs. With this in mind, the police are
inclined to make what they call 'Money Arrests', which are essentially an
arrest to scare people into getting bailed out, since that the money paid to
bail bonds men is non refundable even if the charges are dismissed. I have no
evidence of this money trail. But based upon my personal experience, and the
language that I've heard used during an arrest, such as the 'Oh you must be
one of those tech billionaires', I believe that this is the case.

~~~
csense
Interesting. I commented earlier in the thread that they maybe the police were
hinting they wanted a bribe -- this would have a similar outcome but maybe
more legal / less traceable.

------
methodover
I had a similar initial situation -- I was in North Oakland, in the Rockridge
area, when I observed a traffic accident. I safely parked, exited my vehicle
and rendered aid to the two injured individuals involved in the accident.

Police and Fire were called. I hung around for more than an forty-five
minutes. Oakland PD was nothing but kind and understanding. They did not ask
me to leave. They took my story, and the story of other witnesses. They made
sure everyone was okay. They helped direct traffic. They were fine officers.

Is Oakland PD better than San Francisco PD? I've considered moving from
Oakland to SF -- but if the police department is so terrible that most people
recommend never calling the police, then I might want to stay away for that
reason alone.

------
drpp
I was going to post it here. I wrote it. But you beat me!

~~~
sergiotapia
I sincerely hope you sue and get paid an exorbitant amount of money for your
trouble. You were kidnapped and held without charge, abused and lord knows
what else.

~~~
BlackDeath3
Assuming the truth of this story, I agree. Best of luck to you, drpp!

------
danbmil99
I've had friends who got into this sort of situation. Being dragged into the
criminal justice system is a real eye-opener.

Without downplaying the distress one might feel in this situation, it's worth
pointing out that here in the US, assuming you have resources (meaning, money
and/or friends/relatives who will advocate for you), you almost always can get
out of the clutches of this Kafka-esque nightmare within at most 72 hours.

If you lack those resources, your life can become fucked pretty hard pretty
fast. And it goes without saying that there are countries where instead of 3
days, you can spend weeks, months, or years in the grip of a system every bit
as evil and frightening as a cheap horror flick.

In fact, we (US govt) have some people like that languishing down in Cuba
right now.

~~~
mattm
In Japan, I believe the police can hold you for up to three weeks without
charge. AMA from someone who was held in Japan -
[http://www.reddit.com/r/japan/comments/1t09ud/did_time_in_a_...](http://www.reddit.com/r/japan/comments/1t09ud/did_time_in_a_japanese_jail_ama/)

------
thehodge
Previous discussion :
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7231012](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7231012)

------
weinr0ck
[http://photographyisnotacrime.com/](http://photographyisnotacrime.com/)

Always film your interactions with the police, because they WILL lie to make
themselves the hero and you the villain.

Also, know your rights, exercise them. Especially your 5th amendment.

------
sprslf
Did anybody read the links about the guy that is suing the same cops?
[http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/index.html?id=2989730](http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/index.html?id=2989730)
Poor guy got really messed up, has huge medical bills, and obviously filed the
lawsuit himself because he has no money and can't spell. Feel way worse for
that guy than the OP. If something positive can come out of this story, maybe
that guy can find some help from people here.

~~~
atlotl
Being named 'James Holmes' must be really annoying! ( google search for it...
go ahead )

------
vanattab
>"I painstakingly retrieved all possible documentation, including: the police
report, transcript of radio chatter, audio of my 911 call, security footage
from Radius restaurant"

So post it! The only thing he linked to is the audio of the 911 call. Why not
post the other evidence. I have a feeling there is more to the story. While I
am sure there are many cops on "power trips" most cops I have meet (including
the ones that arrested me) have been pretty decent people.

------
dysoco
I'm in the completely opposite.

Here the police is afraid of taking action, they won't chase a robber for fear
of being injured or crash the car (yes, they pay for the police car repair).
They are totally useless and some of them are even illiterate.

Those are the "good" cops, we also have cops involved with the mafia, this
guys are a worse problem than criminals, believe me.

So, honestly, I'd rather live in the US. Just follow cop's orders and you'll
be fine, at least they won't break into your house to steal your TV.

~~~
angersock
_Just follow cop 's orders and you'll be fine,_

Ahahahahahhahhaha no try again.

------
Beasting247
The real problem with all these stories is that it's as if the police are
above the law and not held accountable for abusing it. They should all be
thrown in jail and have their badges removed. Nothing sickens me more than
people who abuse their authority over innocent people (eg. child molesters.
yes, I compared corrupt policemen to child molesters)

------
zacinbusiness
Generally I disagree that litigation is ever the answer. But in this case OP
should take their jobs because they don't deserve to wear the badge.

I admit that I dislike cops and that I've never had a positive interaction
with one. But there are some cops who legitimately want to do a good job and
make their city safer. And these guys are shitting all over that.

~~~
Gorbzel
What kind of idealistic fantasyland do you live in where litigation is never
the answer?

~~~
ryguytilidie
The world where litigation versus police fails 99%+ of the time...?

~~~
baddox
It's weird that government tends to side with government.

------
Fizzadar
“I mean, there are a lot of young cops on the street, trying to make a name
for themselves.” - oh, so it's OK then. Absolutely disgusted by this story,
particularly after reading another story about a different fucked up justice
system in America
([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7229930](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7229930)).

I did and somewhat still want to live in America for a year+, but seeing this
shit daily puts me right off. So glad to be European right now.

~~~
mahyarm
Europe has similar stories of being horrible in spots too, look at french
jails for example: [http://www.newsweek.com/french-prisons-are-becoming-
embarras...](http://www.newsweek.com/french-prisons-are-becoming-
embarrassment-87695)

~~~
Fizzadar
Thanks for the link, really interesting/enlightening read. I would hope, at
least, that Europe's police officers are on the whole less pointlessly violent
(though, as Peretz points out the majority of SF police probably don't act as
such).

~~~
mahyarm
I've heard of similar bad behavior from spanish and french police forces in
general. I wouldn't be surprised you see it in almost all of the southern
european countries. When you start getting into germanic/english/scandinavian
countries you start hearing the opposite, but even then you hear of
controversial behavior during big political protests in england & canada. I'm
not going into the eastern european countries since they are still developing
nations for the most part.

Japan for another example has scary high conviction rates, even though it's a
very safe country where police will probably never harass you. Once a
prosecutor there goes ahead with a trial, your pretty much guaranteed to be
going to jail.

I'm not trying to be morally relativistic here and saying your screwed
everywhere, but law enforcement systems show this systemic flaw in their
organizations in general. How much they control the bad behaviors is up to the
culture and design of the incentives. The better designed ones will have a
much better probability of not screwing you over. But most people, including
unexposed Americans, don't realize the unjust nastiness of law enforcement
gone bad and think police are a good thing in developed nations, just like you
do in europe.

~~~
Zigurd
I think you have a well thought-out comment in general, but, like in many many
cases on many topics, you have overlooked how much of an outlier the US is.

Look at the US prison population. What kind of policing and prosecutors and
courts are needed to feed a system like that?

As Stalin said, "Quantity has a quality all it's own."

------
x0054
Get a lawyer and sue. Make those fuckers pay, and make sure the fucks who
arrested you are fired. But she for sure!

~~~
baddox
We all know what would happen. The government would side with the government.

~~~
x0054
You have to at east try. Most good lawyers will take this case on a
contingency. Otherwise these cops will just get away with it yet again. Also,
I wish this case would be picked up by the news. If anyone knows a reporter,
send this to them. This needs to be public.

~~~
baddox
If you have the funds and time to try, by all means try. Most people don't.

------
shurcooL
How does this happen? I'd love to know the motivations and perspectives of
people involved. Did they make a mistake? Were they confused? If so, what was
their line of thought? Did they try to intentionally cause harm to innocent
people? If so, what was the reason.

Also, is this a rare unusual occurrence, or does this happen 75%+ of the time
you call 911?

It just seems like a situation that should not have happened the way it was
described (which may or may not be accurate).

~~~
jabr
The police overreacted. And it sounds like one cop in particular overreacted
and then triggered a cascade of nonsense.

This kind of thing is not rare, but it's not common, either. It happens
nightly, but it's unlikely to happen to you.

A good rule of thumb is to not be anywhere near a scene that has an inbound
emergency response. There will be police, and if they have nothing else to do,
they might harass you for fake reasons.

But it all depends on where you are going. In most places, this is not a
common problem. In certain areas of larger cities, the police can be a bit
over zealous.

~~~
shurcooL
Thanks, that's helpful.

------
reddog
I worked my way through school as a police dispatcher. I remember the officers
had a saying about otherwise innocent people who they took to jail after they
gave the officers a hard time: "You may beat the rap, but you won't beat the
ride."

------
atlotl
If a cop asks you what you do and you say 'I work at an early stage startup'
instead of 'I'm a computer programmer', you have lost all perspective.

------
doorty
My girlfriend lives right there. We go to that bar sometimes. She recently
broke her elbow on a bike accident. We would of called 911 in the same
situation. This could of easily been me and her. Wow. What can I do!?

~~~
talon88
You call the cops/ambulance. This one experience, even if 100% true, is not
necessarily indicative of the entire system.

~~~
RamiK
Why should the opposite be any truer? Without any evidence to prove otherwise,
calling the cops is equally wrong.

------
buckbova
> I begged them to watch out for my recently broken right elbow.

They don't give a shit about your elbow nor should they. Everyone who gets put
in cuffs complains about some current or former injury.

I'm not sure I buy every second of your recount. but there is a big difference
between a good samaritan and a do-gooder. If the cops tell you it is time to
leave the scene, it's 1 AM on a city street, you've been drinking, then it's
time to leave.

Yes cops are generally assholes. The nice guys don't last out there.

~~~
nullc
> The nice guys don't last out there

Because San Francisco is a war zone? Give me a break.

~~~
buckbova
No, because being a cop is a shit job and it wears on those who take it on.
So, the nice guy eventually becomes a prick.

~~~
javajosh
Last I checked, people aren't forced to be cops.

------
ojbyrne
What is especially infuriating about “Ah, you’re one of those billionaire
wannabees in this neighborhood.” is the fact that SF police have very high
salaries, possibly higher than the poster:

"Due to the high cost of living in the Bay Area, SFPD officers starting salary
is the highest in the country at $88,842 to $114,164."

([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Police_Departmen...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Police_Department#Controversies))

------
javajosh
This happened to me last January in Seal Beach, CA. Only I was not courageous
enough to step forward and be heard - there is a certain shame in being put in
jail, even if you didn't do anything wrong. The shame is really on the
officers, and the system the enables them to abuse the citizens who might even
be operating under the delusion that the police are there to protect and
serve, rather than bully, escalate, and abuse.

And I hear the defensive tone in her voice. She feels, as I do, that many
people in the public won't believe, or if they do believe, that they will
rationalize the police behavior. Or even if they don't rationalize, they will
keep quiet, feeling powerless and not strong enough to make a difference. But,
what Peretz has shown me personally, is that there is a certain strength in
numbers, and sharing your experience so that other people don't feel like
they're the only one who got treated that way, that they are not the only one
who got brutalized by American city police - and then were left with
absolutely no options to keep them accountable.

The system is fucked and it needs to change. Police should be required to
record all audio and video of their actions, and provide this footage to
anyone they interact with, on request. And if that device doesn't work, they
should be severely reprimanded. (Officer Sasenbach of the SBPD, the one who
threw me in jail without arrest and without reason, had a recording device
which "failed" the night of our interaction.)

Much of my experience was eerily familiar - the suddenness of the violence on
the street, when Sasenbach decided I was trouble. The taunts from the jail
keepers. The taking of clothing (jacket and shoes), and kept in a cell too
cold to sleep in for 12 hours. Asking for a phone call, and being ignored.
Asking if I was arrested, and being ignored. Asking what right they have to
keep me, and having them smirk and say, "because I'm on this side, and you're
on that side".

When I filed a complaint, the sargeant assigned to the case was sullen, bored.
Sasenbach's personal recorder was broken; the video feed in the cell i was
kept in was broken. I could file another complaint if I wanted.

I remember feeling so out-of-body, like the system I'd grown up to believe in,
the system that was supposed to represent "the good guys" was completely
upended. These were brutal, horrible people drunk on their power over me, and
delighted to cause as much harm as they could get away with, for no other
reason that they could. It was an important moment in my life, when my
illusion about the state, the police, and the bare issue of who we trust with
a monopoly of violence became starkly defined: none of us are safe. The police
can invade our lives at will, and do what they want to us, and we are helpless
to defend ourselves. The only thing preventing general rebellion is
statistical: the number of people who "win" the shit lottery that is
interacting with the cops is very low, and it's hard to convince others that
they are indeed at risk of suffering the same treatment. Who knows, perhaps
things will change.

~~~
pbreit
Interesting that even after reading all or most of the account you still refer
to the victim as "she". For awhile, I also thought the victim as a "she" and
I'm wondering if that clouded the account at all or there was any purpose to
including the top picture.

~~~
javajosh
I suppose i was reacting to the picture associated with the essay.

------
MansaMusa
Welcome to the everyday life of a black man in America. Events like and far
worse this occur approx. three to four times a minute. Check out
[http://newjimcrow.com/](http://newjimcrow.com/) by Michelle Alexander.

------
meritt
Don't engage police in any circumstance except when your life is absolutely in
danger. It's simply not worth the risk.

------
Yetanfou
In contrast to this example of abuse of power I'd like to link to an article
in a Swedish tabloid which was published today:

[http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/jan-fick-se-polisens-
spaning...](http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/jan-fick-se-polisens-spaning--
i-sin-mobil/)

In short it tells the story of s man suddenly receiving police-related
messages in a chat program which clearly were not intended for him. As it
turned out, a police office had mistakenly added his phone number to the
distribution list.

This is how the police officer reacted when confronted with this mistake: '–
Oj, oj, oj...vad ska jag säga. Det är naturligtvis djupt olyckligt att de här
uppgifterna kommit ut den här vägen. Jag beklagar det verkligen. Det var jag
som skrev ett felaktigt mobilnummer och får ta på mig ansvaret för det (...).'

Translated to English: '\- Oh, oh, oh... what shall I say. It is of course
very unfortunate that these data became public this way. I'm truly sorry. It
was me who entered a wrong telephone number and I'll have to take
responsibility for this'

While it is in my opinion less than commendable for the police to use this
specific chat program (which is known to be as leaky as a rusty bucket) and
rather careless to enter a phone number without checking whether the messages
actually reach the intended recipient, this police officer does not try to
hide his involvement. He takes responsibility for his fault.

------
rapala
Just a couple of days ago I was having a conversation with my friends about
police brutality in the USA. We dug up some articles from US news papers with
searches like "police shot" and "shooting". In most cases it seemed right that
the police used force. In most cases the amount of force was way too much.

The latest case of a police using a firearm here in Finland was when a man was
walking in a populated pedestrian way carrying a knife and a pistol. He didn't
comply with orders to lay down his weapons and was shot once, in the leg. One
of the first questions in media was whether an electroshock weapon could have
been used in stead. The use of a firearm in a populated area was also
questioned. These sort of questions didn't seem to be asked in the articles
from USA.

The OP's case was from the other end of the spectrum. He may have had the
smell of beer in his breath and didn't comply with the order to leave the
scene. The police tackled him done and handcuffed him. One explanation given
is that the officer was on a power trip. But it also seems that the police was
having difficulties in adjusting their use of force. They dragged away a man
who was supporting an injured person. They tackled OP for not complying with
an order to leave.

After reading those news articles my friends and I started think about the
training that police officer receive in the USA. How much time is used to
teach giving orders? How much time for hand-to-hand combat and controlling a
person with or without a weapon? How much time is spent in the firing range?

------
pacaro
FWIW I'm not going to offer an opinion on whether 20+% is a good tip, but
tipping with a credit card has a lower value to the server.

All tips are notionally taxable income, whether a server chooses to declare
all their cash tips is their choice, when you tip with a credit card it stops
being their choice - and there's no way of telling how much of the tip is
diverted by the establishment.

~~~
dctoedt
Downvoted for encouraging tax fraud.

~~~
mindslight
Yeah, it's our responsibility to fund the police to perform the beatings!

~~~
tptacek
That, and the roads that the ambulances use, and for that matter the
ambulances. Sheesh.

~~~
mindslight
Well then, the administrators of roads and ambulances should probably lobby to
have the police taxes be separable, before too many people decide to throw the
baby out with the bathwater.

~~~
tptacek
Nobody is going to decide that.

~~~
mindslight
Well that's certainly the assertion modern bureaucrats feel entitled to.

It works right up until it doesn't :/

------
gojomo
YC (S14): "Yelp for Police Officers"

------
lurchpop
Wouldn't it be great if there was a 911 equivalent that just called a fucking
ambulance or a fire truck?

------
aet
"She turned to me and abruptly said that I was not needed as a witness and
should leave immediately." \-- Police ask you to leave the scene. You don't.
You wind up in jail. I've read a lot of these "brutality" stories. The one
common ingredient: not doing what the cop says. Police are just trying to do
their jobs. If they ask you to leave, just leave. The less gawkers and people
meandering around the easier it is for them to do their job. Generally
speaking, I'd say that after an accident in which an officer has asked you to
move along that it is not a good time to "exercise your rights." Sure you
probably have the "right" to stick around and get in the way, but why?

------
spiritplumber
I'd still like to know what the proper procedure is after a police officer
declares their intention to handcuff you, and you end up handcuffing them
instead. I mean, is he under arrest then? Should I take him home and keep him
in the spare bedroom for a couple of days?

Serious question, I have seen it happen. Personally as far as hostile
encounters with polices go I'm batting 2/1/1 which is not really anything to
brag about, and none are fun stories.

Anyway, if you end up in an emergency situation, and the cops do show up,
offer help in a clear slow voice and then follow instructions. The worst that
ever happened was being asked to give a hand with moving some heavy branches,
which is what I was doing when they showed up anyway.

------
dllthomas
If this in fact went down exactly as described, the officers who initiated use
of force need to not be officers. I caution against undue private agitation
against the officers named, though, because that's a big "if" \- I don't
expect the story was _deliberately_ colored by the narrator (although we can't
completely ignore the possibility) but the way humans work it always gets
colored somewhat and we don't know what things seemed like from the officers'
POV. I do hope the incident is taken seriously - this tendency of the police
to make themselves enemies of even the law abiding does nothing for our
safety.

------
logfromblammo
They say the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing. Well, that's wrong. For evil to triumph, all the good men must be
gone, because a good man won't do nothing when faced with evil.

Whenever a bad cop does a bad thing, and no one steps in to stop it, there are
no good cops left. Whenever the thin blue line is deployed to protect one of
their own, it damns the entire company. Qui custodiet custodes, indeed. Andy
Griffith retired long ago, and Barney Fife rose to power. Now there's no one
responsible left to tell him when he can and cannot put his bullet in.

------
kpennell
On laws regarding video taping the police:
[http://gizmodo.com/5900680/7-rules-for-recording-
police](http://gizmodo.com/5900680/7-rules-for-recording-police)

------
williamcotton
> Don’t call 911. Obviously, there are exceptions, but the sad lesson is,
> there are fewer than you’d think.

Are you fucking kidding me? Do NOT listen to this advice. If you see someone
injured, CALL 911!

Do NOT move the person if there is suspicion of spinal or head injury. Wait
for the HIGHLY TRAINED emergency response team to show up.

> Call Lyft to take you to the hospital. (Worked well when I broke my elbow.)

Are you fucking kidding me? ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?

All of this is some sort of thinly veiled attack on our public servants and
what seems to be public government infrastructure in general.

~~~
williamcotton
Do you people really think there is an epidemic of people being thrown in
solitary confinement for calling 911 to report accidents? REALLY?

What the fuck is going on here? Is one of my office mates pranking me with a
man-in-the-middle attack and then trolling me hard? Or are there really that
many retards on this forum?

~~~
Malician
I don't know.

If the cops who did stuff like this were actually punished, if the dept. came
right out and said, this shouldn't have happened, we're gonna do this and this
to fix it.. I wouldn't be afraid.

Instead I see, well, he must have pissed them off somehow, just be quiet and
maybe nothing bad will happen to you.

All my encounters with cops have been good, but I understand the police dept.
where I am is a pretty good one. Still, it only takes one bad encounter, one
bad cop, to ruin my life.

I'm not gonna stop from calling the cops because I'm afraid of them. Someone
else's life, their health, matters more than what could or couldn't happen to
me. But I can't support this system and I don't know what to do about it.

------
cgag
So what do we do? Tons of us live here, we should be doing something. Squad up
and protest? There has to be a decent number of us who have flexible ours, how
about we team up and manually surveil officer Kaur for a week? Is there
someone would should be calling to complain to that will hurt this persons
career?

I don't know what to do, but this city is tiny and there are a lot of us,
surely we can have some effect. My email and website w/ pgp key are in my
profile, email me if you're interested in trying something.

~~~
adventured
The primary reason this isn't happening, is an intense fear of the police
state and what it can (and often will) do to any given individual person
either just out of typical abuse or intentional malice.

Seattle had / has such a vile police force it had to be put under Federal
control.

------
xacaxulu
I make it a point to avoid all interactions with LEOs. They are new
militarized, angry and highly uneducated underclass and they want to take it
out on you. I don't even drive any more just to avoid interactions. It's much
harder to be arrested in a Lyft/Uber than in your own vehicle and you don't
risk them 'finding' anything in your vehicle. Never call the police, never
help the police, never talk to the police.

------
siculars
"Consider wearing a video camera at all times. It has been shown that when
police wear cameras and are aware of being filmed, it moderates their
behavior. As self reports of the need to use force decrease, so do
complaints."

This. I'm certain that this is our collective future where every interaction
is recorded by civilians and law enforcement alike. The jury is still out as
to whether or not this is a good thing in the long run.

------
aperrien
And this is why all police officers should be wearing badge-cams with the
video feed removed from their (and the department's) control.

------
khafra
I recently heard the suggestion that police should carry an equivalent of
doctors' malpractice insurance; so the same taxpayers that they abuse aren't
the ones who ultimately pay to compensate for their abuses. Sounded like a
good idea, especially if insurance companies can identify the officers most at
risk of doing legally actionable things while on duty.

~~~
maxerickson
When insurance is priced correctly, the premiums will roughly match the
payouts. The taxpayers will still be paying the premiums.

It would introduce some sort of independent oversight, but it seems like a
roundabout way of doing it.

~~~
khafra
> The taxpayers will still be paying the premiums.

If the police pay their own premiums directly, we'll have to raise their
salaries; so the taxpayers will still be paying them.

 _But_ , there will be an independent entity with a financial interest in
identifying officers likely to commit crimes and abuses; instead of a
subdepartment of the police itself with conflicted interests. Ideally, abusive
police officers will not be able to afford to be police officers.

------
cinitriqs
Couple of words:

This is only the tip of the ice-berg n if us, the people, keep acting like
sheep and never question "authority (whatever that word means anyway), they
will have their way with a very nice fascist-like nanny/police state...

Nothing to see here people, just abuse of power which we will call "normal
procedure". Nothing to see here, carry on with your dreadful lives...

------
rajacombinator
Welcome to the militarized police state, criminal.

------
socrates1998
Cops generally do not care about your constitutional rights.

They care about their authority.

Unfortunately, this is a tough lesson to learn.

Most minorities in the US know learn this at a very young age.

The irony is that the police are losing the respect of decent people every day
when they pull this behavior.

They are making their jobs more difficult by separately themselves from the
public.

The police treat neighborhoods like war zones. Us vs. Them.

------
sergj
I feel sick reading stories like this. Yesterday I read about the guy that
made a stupid facebook comment and is now facing 10 years in prison. He will
probably win and walk away a free man, but still he had to spend 2 months in
prison. Reading these stories or stories about the TSA I really do not want to
visit the USA in the near future.

------
mindslight
OP definitely needs to sue the city, as well as the aggressors personally.
Every cop involved in this situation should be spending years in prison for
battery, kidnapping, false imprisonment, and torture. Until justice for
victims of the police becomes routine, they're nothing but another gang and
the only good cop is a dead cop.

~~~
carbocation
> OP definitely needs to sue the city, as well as the aggressors personally.

I upvoted this comment for that; it seems like a prudent step to take.

> the only good cop is a dead cop

And then I got here and wish I could undo. I don't understand why you would
say such a thing. That's just not right.

~~~
mindslight
If police forces were organizations of justice, they would compensate victims
of false imprisonment as a matter of course. Say you spend a night in jail for
an errant arrest, you get an immediate $2k for time lost and distress
incurred. This way, they wouldn't be able to shuffle the damages from their
run-roughshod approach onto innocent people.

But instead, they do everything they can to stick with and make-proper the
mistake, and pettily punish those who don't just submit and take it. They know
full well that time in their jail is (an extrajudicial) punishment in and of
itself. This entire blue-shield assume-everyone's-guilty mentality makes them
just another gang of thugs to be avoided. The fact they're given a fancy
costume by the out of touch populations of whatever jurisdiction they're in
ceases to be relevant.

While still extremely callous, one would take far less issue with what I said
if it were explicitly about "violent gangbangers". And given that the problem
is institutional yet new recruits are still signing up for the trip, I have
little empathy.

edit: and I will admit that short of things like automated home-defense
turrets becoming commonplace, empathy is the only thing that is going to fix
anything and what I said actually hurts that. But given that the problem stems
from police getting things mostly right (because most of who they interact
with are criminals), I don't see reforms to make them impartial justice
organizations ever gaining much support, as the sheer majority will always see
them as doing a good job.

~~~
Guvante
> Say you spend a night in jail for an errant arrest, you get an immediate $2k
> for time lost and distress incurred.

There are a lot of people who would instigate an officer for that kind of
money.

Besides, having served on a Jury, I know what they think my time is worth.
Getting a check for $200 (a more realistic number) would be an insult after
getting stuck overnight in a jail cell.

> But instead, they do everything they can to stick with and make-proper the
> mistake, and pettily punish those who don't just submit and take it

This could be said about the first group, but he even admits that his own
actions are what got him put into solitary confinement. If he hadn't made a
ruckus they wouldn't have put him there. Note that they did overstep by doing
that, but not massively.

~~~
mindslight
> _Getting a check for $200 ... would be an insult_

This amount wouldn't meet what I said, as they'd still clearly be
externalizing the collateral damage from their approach (just like the jury
theatre, as you point out).

> _If he hadn 't made a ruckus they wouldn't have put him there_

Which stemmed from them denying him access to medical care, outside
communication, and due process. I covered this under "pettily punish those who
don't just submit and take it".

------
puppetmaster3
Solution is easy. No guns for police like UK. But citizens should have a gun.

It sounds simple but think, ex:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment)

The issue is if they have more power than you, it auto equals abuse.

------
gopi
Maybe i am wrong, but is there a chance that this types of incidence happens
more with urban cops than suburban?

------
im3w1l
>Consider wearing a video camera at all times. It has been shown that when
police wear cameras and are aware of being filmed, it moderates their
behavior. >As self reports of the need to use force decrease, so do
complaints.

What is a good wearable camera that wont broadcast all I do to the alphabet
soup?

------
botolo
When this kind of things happen, you should call a lawyer right away. When you
are not free to leave, you are under arrest. When you are under arrest,
officers should read your Miranda rights. Even if they don't read them, you
have the right to counsel.

------
tn13
I wonder if there is any kind of "I was fucked by government insurance". For
example we can pay say a $100 per month just in case government decides to
create trouble like this for us and we will get an attorney paid for by the
insurance company.

------
hnisnotreddit
Just goes to show you, if a cop finds a reason to arrest you, you an be
detained for up to 72 hours without charges being laid upon you.

This story is what a typical arrest feels like in 2014. All the stuff you see
on movies? forget it. it doesn't apply anymore.

------
Fuxy
America The land of the free... if you're a cop and careful to never get
caught on camera or recorder in any way shape or form.

But what do you expect when you send a swat team for every arrest.

Even the cops start to think that their allows to use as much force as they
like.

------
snsr
[https://richardbrenneman.wordpress.com/2011/04/20/criminal-l...](https://richardbrenneman.wordpress.com/2011/04/20/criminal-
law-101-never-ever-talk-to-the-police/)

------
caitp
Somehow, with stories like these being so common in the news, I just don't
think I want to live in that country. Apart from warmer weather, I'm not sure
there's anything worth moving for.

------
blueskin_
...and this is another reason (other than bystander effect) why people ignore
emergencies that don't concern them - not wanting to get caught up or have
something like this happen.

------
trekforever
I think you should contact ACLU and work with them to sue the
officers/department. obviously your rights were violated (they didn't even
read the Miranda warning)

------
veganarchocap
Everyone needs to read this, no given person, our group of persons should ever
have the power to detain, abuse and incarcerate like this. This is sickening.

------
joyeuse6701
So... I know one of the original injured (Rebecca), boy was I shocked to see
the blog + this on HN. wow, everything about this is surreal.

------
krosaen
Don't we already have reddit to commiserate about injustice? Honest question -
just not sure why this is a good fit for hacker news.

------
legedemon
I am tired and bored of reading these rants on HN. Why don't Americans just
give themselves a spring?

------
mcoliver
you were not arrested. you were detained. it's called the patriot act. they
can detain you for 72 hours without charge and release you without any
repercussions.

as fucked up as it is, their actions were legal.

as for stripping you naked, you might have a good shot at a successful lawsuit
there.

------
rch
I think instead of building startups, some of us should start super PACs
instead.

------
grifpete
Disgusting.

------
balls187
Wow.

At the point where the person was bluntly told to leave immediately, why did
they not?

~~~
jabr
He wasn't told bluntly. They said they no longer needed him. He said he would
like to stay, and then he was tackled, cuffed, and sent off for a bit of
solitary.

------
skywhopper
Somehow I'm reminded of _Bonfire of the Vanities_.

------
ladlestein
Jesus Christ, will you look at the mountains of bullshit social commentary
here. Even you the author does it, with your apologies for them because
they're schnooks who resent tech workers.

I can't be profane enough here.

------
anentropic
USA is fucked

------
FD3SA
This is a perfect example of the disconnect between "hackers" and the real
world. I consider myself part of the HN community because I hope for a society
shaped by its ideals, but the real world is so far removed that time spent
here becomes more of a therapeutic escape than anything else.

I strongly recommend people study history, and understand human nature at both
scientific and societal levels. There is too much to discuss here, but in
brief:

Homo-sapiens, much like other primates, create status hierarchies while
competing for resources and mates. Status is directly proportional to the
ability to exercise power. All of human history has been a result of this
inter and intra-hierachy competition.

In a police state such as the modern US, the lowest police officer has an
unimaginably higher potential to exercise power than any median income
citizen. As such, that power is often exercised. As the author realized, you
have no ability to fight back in a police state. You can sue, but good luck
getting results.

So the real question is, why do you think your startup is worth pursuing given
the situation you're in? Do you really think "bringing transparency to the
food industry", or the thousands of other startups that go through YC, are
even relevant given the reality of the US police state?

This has been my biggest criticism of "Hacker" culture. Closing your eyes and
pretending you live in Galt's Gluch is not going to make it a reality. Wake up
and look at the world around you and realize that just because you haven't
been crushed by the state yet, doesn't mean it's never going to happen. Once
you realize that, your priorities will hopefully shift in a more reasonable
direction.

Nobody, and I mean nobody, is safe from totalitarian police states. This is a
fact history has shown repeatedly.

Act accordingly.

P.S. Just saw that immediately race was brought up. As a tip to anyone who
wants to make a difference, people in power will divide you into as many
groups as you let them in order to subjugate you. When the system is in place,
it doesn't matter what ethnicity you belong to. If you piss off the wrong
person, you're finished. The trick is to unify to disassemble the monstrosity,
not balkanize into smaller and ever more powerless units based on: race,
income, sex, height, attractiveness, beliefs, democrat/republican, pro-
life/pro-choice, LBGT-hetero, pro-KONY/anti-KONY, ...

Please, understand power. Understand how little you have, and how to make best
use of it to attain your goals. Balkanize at your own peril.

~~~
swombat
_This is a perfect example of the disconnect between "hackers" and the real
world. I consider myself part of the HN community because I hope for a society
shaped by its ideals, but the real world is so far removed that time spent
here becomes more of a therapeutic escape than anything else._

You say that, but this ideal world is the world I live in, and have lived in
all my life. You should consider moving to Europe (UK and Switzerland in my
case).

~~~
mherdeg
Western Europe has its own problems.

The U.K. has "superinjunctions" and aggressively punitive libel laws and press
restrictions.

In some places in Switzerland, relationships with non-Swiss residents are so
strained that local authorities have sometimes sought to ban "asylum-seekers"
from public places because they are seen as dangerous criminals (
[http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/26/swiss-
segregati...](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/26/swiss-segregation-
asylum-seekers) ).

In Ireland, police seized a baby girl from her family because she was blonde
and did not look like her parents, who are from Romania; they returned her
after performing a DNA test (
[http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/24/blonde-girl-
rom...](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/24/blonde-girl-roma-parents-
returned-dna) ).

~~~
vidarh
A bit of a nitpick:

Maybe you have their nationality from another source (though I googled the
case and didn't find any articles stating their nationality), but this article
does not state the nationality of the Roma girl or her parents.

Roma or Romani refers to the ethnicity of a people that emigrated from India
as a group, and does not in itself have anything at all to do with Romania.

While Romania has one of the largest Romani concentrations, and there
certainly are Roma that are also of Romanian nationality, many other countries
- including Ireland - have populations of Roma that may have lived there for
generations and whose ancestors may very well never have lived in Romania at
all.

(The mother of the boy that was taken in a separate incident is mentioned in
the article as being Romanian, on the other hand)

~~~
mherdeg
Oops, sorry, you're right — I had misread the Guardian's reference to a
_different_ case in which the parents were in fact from Bucharest and their
son was taken from them.

No, I don't have any special knowledge about the nationality of the folks in
Ireland whose daughter was taken from them.

But yeah, I am a little uneasy about the casual way the word "Roma" is used
today to refer to people who were formerly referred to as "Gypsies".

It's particularly confusing to see this particular word ("Roma") used to refer
interchangeably to three different, differently sized groups of people
("Roma", "Romani", "Romanichal").

I'm used to hearing "Roma" to mean a very particular sub-group of the Romani
people who live in Central and Eastern Europe.

But in today's usage, the word also seems to be used to other folks from
various subgroups of the overarching "Romani people" group. Many of the Romani
people living in the UK come from a subgroup traditionally called
"Romanichal", which is very much different from the "Roma" group — but in
conversation today the distinction does not come up and we often see news
stories use "Roma" instead of "Romani".

How that happened, I dunno; maybe the words just all sound the same?

------
angersock
Relevant bit from the article:

    
    
        Don’t call 911. Obviously, there are exceptions, but the sad lesson is, there are fewer than you’d think.
    
        Call Lyft to take you to the hospital. (Worked well when I broke my elbow.)
    
        Take such incidents to trial, where justice isn’t veiled by the POBAR. It’s not a matter of litigious vindictiveness. It’s just the only available way. The SF Office of Citizen Complaints is not a valid alternative.
    
        Consider wearing a video camera at all times. It has been shown that when police wear cameras and are aware of being filmed, it moderates their behavior. As self reports of the need to use force decrease, so do complaints.
    

Folks, that right there is a breakdown of the social contract and the fabric
of our fucking society. These incidents (finally, one that happens to the
wrong people, right?) are a sign that something is _seriously fucking broken_.

Stop working on ads and organic food sourcing and microfunding and start
fixing the fucking system. Vote. Call. Protest. Write articles like this when
your friends are abused. Praise politicians that are doing the right thing.

------
a3voices
It sounds like you didn't know the simple guideline "always do what the police
say". Otherwise you're gonna have a bad time.

------
fuckpig
Government is a parasite that protects its own interests. It defends itself
against you, and to do that, must neutralize anyone who does not do exactly
what it wants.

The solution is to overthrow government and replace it with organic power
structures. Most people are afraid to do this however. It insults their sense
of autonomy and uniqueness.

Thus for the sake of pretense, we continue with this idiocy.

~~~
mwfunk
"Organic power structures"

------
greatsuccess
Never underestimate mob mentality. When one officer apologizes for another,
its simply a case of good cop bad cop and that officer excusing themselves for
the same behavior on a different day.

This is the problem with creating an underclass of criminals in the first
place, it excuses vast overreach in the execution of even the simplest tasks
of law enforcement, to intimidate and exert power over another, and to simply
abuse.

------
hackaflocka
Why did she selectively describe the race and skin color of only some of the
police-people? I'd like to know the race and skin color of all of them.

~~~
chippy
>she

OP is a he.

------
interstitial
Can't have a Socialist Paradise with a police state to enforce your idealism.

------
kimonos
So sad to read stories like this.. I empathize with you..

------
surlyadopter
Rope.

------
AjithAntony
Why is the lead photo of a delicate blonde white woman, when the story is
about a grizzled bearded man who could pass for some various ethnicities?

That totally changes that context. The story is much less sensational than if
it was the pictured woman.

