
MIT study shows how much driving for Uber or Lyft sucks - jcrabtr
https://techcrunch.com/2018/03/02/mit-study-shows-how-much-driving-for-uber-or-lyft-sucks/
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burkemw3
Additional discussion of same report:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16501017](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16501017)

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bitslayer
The hegemony of car culture is so ingrained that people are not even aware of
how much it personally costs them. These companies are taking advantage of
this loophole. People notice gas prices go up and down with great interest,
but that is just a small part of the total cost. Since you pretty much have to
have a car to just exist in society, people don't count the capital expenses.

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consto
> Since you pretty much have to have a car to just exist in society

Perhaps in America, but you can certainly "exist" in virtually any European
city without a car. Anecdotally, I have managed to "exist" for the past four
years without owning a car. I know how to drive one and possess a driving
license, but have chosen not too.

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bringtheaction
> Anecdotally, I have managed to "exist" for the past four years without
> owning a car

I've managed to do so my whole life ;)

But when someone says that a car is necessary I think it's always implied that
they are talking about the US. I don't think most educated people think that
you need one as much in every other country.

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santoshalper
It even depends on where you live in the US. But mostly, a car is a virtual
necessity.

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peacetreefrog
This paper:

[http://www.nber.org/papers/w23296](http://www.nber.org/papers/w23296)

Talks about how much of the value to Uber drivers is in that the work is
flexible and can be done on their own schedule. More than 2x the producer
surplus vs less flexible arraignments. Put another way: if drivers HAD to work
at the prevailing wages and didn't have the flexibility, they'd reduce the
hours they supply by 2/3.

Looked at the MIT study for a bit and they don't appear to mention this. Obv
flexibility is a major component of the economics of driving for Uber and Lyft
and the benefits thereto. If they're ignoring this they're missing a big part
of the picture.

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giarc
Could only read the abstract but how many drivers see that as a benefit? I've
spoken with many drivers who drive because that's the only work they could
get. Sure they are flexible, but only because driving is their only job. They
would like to have a full time job but just can't get one.

~~~
peacetreefrog
Producer surplus by definition is benefit to the drivers. It's the amount
actually make minus the minimum amount they'd be willing to take. This paper
purports to show how the minimum drivers are willing to accept (their
reservation price) changes by the hour. Flexibility -- fact they can choose to
work when their reservation price is the lowest, or only lower than what
they'd actually make -- is definitely a benefit.

Obviously a driver's alternatives are a big factor in whether/how much to
drive, but flexibility might even MORE valuable to drivers who have other
jobs, because they can work around it.

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BatFastard
Being a driver is a short term strategy for the companies who plan on
replacing all drivers with autonomous services. So this result is no surprize.

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freddie_mercury
This is a popular current talking point but Uber is 9 years old and most
people reckon autonomous services are at least another year or two out.

Having human drivers for over a decade is not a "short term strategy" for most
reasonable definitions of short term.

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IntronExon
I think we’re decades from real lvl 5 automation, not just a few years. Either
way though, this study suggests that Uber stands to save relatively little per
ride on automation. It would just appear that their business model is
inherently unsustainable.

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madengr
IIRC when Uber & Lyft were started, it was never supposed to be a full time
job, or even a taxi service. You were supposed to make some easy money by
offering a ride along a route you were already taking for your normal
activities.

Any job that has no barriers (difficulty, education, licensing) to entry will
be eventually driven to zero profit.

~~~
spinlock
I think that was Lyft's model but Uber was "everybody's private driver" for
their first product. They were black cars with professional drivers who did do
it as a full time job.

Now, "everybody's private driver" was 2x the cost of a cab (at least) so I
think it was a better deal for the drivers. But, to your point, the barriers
to entry were owning a black car, being licensed, and Uber vetted their
drivers very carefully.

Totally different from what they're doing now.

But, I've also never met an Uber driver -- who used to be a cabbie -- that
didn't think Uber was a _better_ deal than driving a cab. If you're a cab
driver, you also have to rent a cab with a medalion which was an astronomical
cost compared to just buying and maintaining a car.

So, I think this study comes off as disingenuous for not comparing Uber and
Lyft to the traditional job of driving a cab.

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santoshalper
That's my problem - these studies all assume that Uber and Lyft are competing
against real jobs. The reality is that they are competing with jobs that are
_far_ worse and winning as a result. The Uber drivers I've talked to are glad
to not being working at CVS or Burger King.

The real question is how does the richest nation in history think it is OK to
pay adults a sub-living wage to do degrading menial labor so that a small
number of people can be incredibly wealthy.

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santoshalper
As a socialist, I appreciate the desire to create sustainable living
conditions for all people disconnected from the value the "free market"
assigns them.

That said, I am a little baffled by the focus on gig-economy jobs. You want to
know what really sucks? Try working at fucking Wal-Mart. All the same problems
+ zero respect for your time, no flexibility, etc.

Driving for Uber may suck, but the reason so many people do it is that working
retail or fast food is much worse and they are desperate for money.

There are a lot of really nasty, shitty jobs in this world, apparently these
are the only ones we can be bothered to care about.

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Gys
I live in Portugal and Uber is sometimes more expensive then an ordinairy
taxi. Talking to drivers they also seem very happy with their earnings. But
minimum wages in Portugal are low.

Last year in Singapore I also noticed Uber was seriously more expensive then
regular cabs. I understand there its public knowledge, you pay more for the
more flexible service (taxi's in SIN are often limited in supply).

Just anecdotical. But it makes me wonder what regular taxi drivers make in
those places.

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isatty
I live in Singapore and I disagree. I take cabs everyday (atleast 2) and
here's what I've found:

Regular cabs are often more expensive here (from personal experience) because
they're metered (especially if you get stuck in a jam). Often, the drivers
don't stop for you or reject your destination if it doesn't suit them. There
is no standardization in payment either with some cabbies taking cards and
some refusing to and only accepting cash.

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madengr
Agreed. If you have ever made up a spreadsheet to calculate car costs, it adds
up very fast. Even a car purchased for $0 is expensive for insurance and
taxes.

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tudorconstantin
It seems lots of drivers consider that making a shitty 660$/month is better
than making nothing.

