
Welcome to HN.  Please, read 'Hacker News Guidelines.' We take them seriously. - iamelgringo
http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html?=
======
wvenable
My biggest complaint about Hacker News is that the upmodding and downmodding
of comments is used to express agreement/disagreement rather than as a method
of distinguishing the quality of the post itself. I regularly upmod
intelligent, yet unpopular, comments if they've fallen below 1.

~~~
tokenadult
See

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171>

from the keyboard of pg, expressing a differing point of view.

After edit: the low-rated comments that most disappoint me are the comments
asking follow-up questions, to verify information asserted in the parent
comment. I'd like to see a lot more upvotes for comments along the lines of
"Could you cite some references on that?" or "What is an example of that?" or
"What are some of the best online sources on that issue?" Most of us like to
learn here, and the guidelines say that "anything that gratifies one's
intellectual curiosity" is on topic, so anyone who asks a question to pursue
curiosity ought to see that comment upvoted, it seems to me.

~~~
chrischen
In response to pg's argument: assuming there is a flaw in the system, that is,
assuming agreement does not correlate with quality, then downvotng would
simply amplify the effect of opinion based voting, and thus marginalize
quality based voting (because peopl's opinions are a stronger force).

So ideally a lot haters would vote down, and a lot of agree-ers would vote up.
And it would balance it out. But this only works if we assume the right amount
of people are backing a good idea.

What happens if it's an unpopular but good comment? Then allowing people to
downvote would quickly suppress it without enough counteracting "I Agree"
upvotes.

So upvotes can be used for more than quality indicator, but a downvote simply
makes the system more volatile. If there were just an upvote and no downvote,
then the novote will simply be the new downvote. Except the novote will be
less volatile.

~~~
Xichekolas
My problem with downvoting-for-disagreement is that it is not symmetrical to
upvoting-for-agreement.

If someone makes a quality comment, but it happens to be an unpopular view,
and they get voted negative, they are less likely to express their view in the
future... and we are the poorer for it. No one wants a monoculture.

If that same person makes the same comment, and people merely upvote the
opposing viewpoint, then neither person is being 'discouraged' from
contributing. One is just being encouraged more than the other.

I realize it's all just a number and shouldn't matter, but we are human beings
and it does... seeing someone else get told "good job" isn't near as bad as
someone telling you "bad job"... especially when you thought that you had done
something good by contributing a useful viewpoint.

(Obviously none of this applies to trolls/spam and things that are outright
false... people shouldn't say things they can't provide evidence for.)

To make a rather tenuous analogy: If you don't like a product, you don't get
to take money away from the company that makes that product. The best you can
do is give money to their competitor. And to extend that, you can only take
money (fines) from some company if they do something illegal. Here doing
something 'illegal' is trolling/spamming.

~~~
InclinedPlane
_No one wants a monoculture._

I see a lot of people saying this, but judging by peoples' actions I'm not
sure it's true. If I had to guess I'd say that maybe 1/4 (of hackers, a far
smaller slice of the general public) of folks really do value a truly vigorous
open exchange of ideas and welcome reasoned and thoughtful criticism, with the
remaining 3/4 of folks implicitly willing to live within the cozy confines of
an ideological fishbowl.

------
gvb
Suggestion: after "If you submit a link to a video or pdf, please warn us by
appending [video] or [pdf] to the title." add another paragraph:

If you submit a link to old news, please warn us by appending [year] (the year
of publication) to the title.

Justification: Revisiting "old" news can be very worth while, but we
appreciate a warning that it isn't current.

~~~
billswift
If it's old, but of current interest, who cares much about the date? If it's
old and not of current interest, don't link it here.

~~~
pronoiac
It's not "old is bad," but "avoiding unnecessary confusion is good."

------
bugs
I don't know if this is still the case but when I created this account there
was a welcome link up where you find

    
    
       [Y]Hacker News  welcome | new | comments | ... 
    

linking to this.

Edit: To be more clear I think the welcome link disappeared after a certain
amount of karma was acquired like other little features on HN (
flag,downvote,topcolor ).

~~~
pg
Actually it doesn't link to the guidelines. It links to

<http://ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html>

I added this feature within the last year, so none of the established users
know it exists, but I think it has helped stave off decline as HN has grown.

~~~
jacobolus
You should add a bit of space between the edge of the beige and the text.

~~~
pg
Yeah, you're right. The original intention was to make the beige almost
invisible, so that it just added a subtle impression of a box bounding the
text, but it isn't really working that way.

It works better on pages with images that are flush with the beige on both
sides. If you indent the text, what do you do with the images? Indent them
too? Maybe.

------
Xichekolas
I haven't read these in quite a while, and had hearty chuckle at:

 _"If your account is less than a year old, please don't submit comments
saying that HN is turning into Reddit. (It's a common semi-noob illusion.)"_

Was that in the original guidelines, or a recent addition? It seems almost too
perfect in response to the comment that iamelgringo was responding to. (As
malte pointed out elsewhere in this thread:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=978170>)

~~~
adbachman
It's been in at least since Erlang Day. I'd bet it's been a year or two.

It's always felt on the verge, but has never dropped off the edge. I suppose
it's more exciting that way.

~~~
araneae
I'm assuming this is a different Erlang Day than the one I was here for, as
I'm still a noob. (And on that note, how many have there been? And can we pick
another language for subsequent days plz?)

~~~
allenbrunson
i can recall two 'erlang days' so far.

the first happened when pg said the site was having some trouble coping with
an influx of new users due to some high-profile mentions on other sites. he
suggested posting articles about erlang to make the site look boring. i guess
people complied a little more than he was expecting, so then he asked people
to stop.

the second time was when the site was overrun with articles about _why, right
after his disappearance. some people thought it was a little too much, which
once again triggered an influx of erlang articles. it looked to me like pg and
the editors started killing erlang articles after that, and possibly the _why
articles as well.

------
malte
It's a good idea to point to the HN guidelines from time to time. I just
wonder if there was a specific incident that made you submit them. Just
curious.

~~~
iamwil
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=978141>

Edit: oh, just answering to which incident. In the comments, iamelgringo
talked about submission guidelines, so I'm guessing that's why he resubmitted
them here, so yeah, I meant the discussion.

~~~
physcab
Kinda confused. The user who submitted that Ask HN is an older member, so they
technically should know the rules. Or perhaps you meant the discussion taking
place?

~~~
malte
I guess he's referring to this comment:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=978170>

------
nkurz
Can I add a suggest adding something about comment moderation to the
Guidelines? Perhaps:

"Don't downmod comments just because you disagree with them. Similarly, don't
upmod a comment just because it takes your side. Instead, vote up for comments
that further the discussion, and down for comments that do not."

~~~
dpcan
Usually it's the comments I agree with that I want to see discussed more.

~~~
nkurz
OK, feel free to reword it to "upvote the comments you want to see discussed
more". My main thrust is that an explicit guideline should be given for
comment moderation, not what the exact content should be.

------
RevRal
What is the opinion on silly comments in submissions that will soon be killed?
I've seen people get in one word comments in some of these submissions and not
get downvoted.

I have had some fun myself. My latest: "Opening studiobriefing.net was like
watching time lapse photography of some butt-ugly flower blooming."

These are the only times that I knowingly type something that I know has a
good chance of getting downvoted. _But I will stop_ if you guys tell me it is
a bigger deal than I think it is. I just don't see the harm in commenting
something silly into a submission that will likely get killed.

Please correct me if this is at all detrimental to the community.

~~~
scott_s
Consider that it adds to the noise, even if in a small way. People learn
etiquette through observation; if someone sees both a bad submission and a bad
comment, they're more likely to think that's okay around here.

~~~
RevRal
Thank you for your reply.

As for my downvote. I had an idea of how my question would be received.

But, it was an honest question since -- and you have to agree -- the values of
humor and sarcasm here are usually left at the front door. For some of us, it
is hard to let go of since it is held in high regard in the real world and
other internet communities.

So, I thought it was a valid question that deserved a response for those of us
who are so new, that we're on the border of whether or not to completely
abandon humor and snark. The appropriateness of this aspect of the HN
community has been really hard to gauge, and is frankly a culture shock.

scott_s's comment was the final verification that I needed that, yes, when
submitting silliness, to please be more careful.

~~~
sofal
Humor is welcome on HN, but attempts at humor are not. It's just that HN has a
higher standard of what is actually funny.

Some recent examples:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=976321>

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=978683>

I've found that humor is _always_ acceptable in any community, but the
standards and flavor can vary wildly. Unless you feel that you really have a
good handle on what the community thinks is funny, it's best to avoid trying.
I'm convinced that discouraging attempts at humor that are not funny is for
the best in any online community. Humor should be used sparingly and
skillfully.

~~~
RevRal
This is just plain hard for me to gauge, but thanks for your reply as well.

I know what you mean by saying that attempts at humor are not welcome here.
I'll see a comment that I think is pretty witty, but it has maybe 0, or less,
points. I click the user, and it turns out they're respectable.

I've gotten a couple pretty well received comments in, and a few failures. So
the whole point of my original comment was to eliminate an easy platform for
humor.

I mean, it is pretty easy to make fun of a bad submission and I've seen a few
respectable users do it. So I did it myself a couple times and had fun. But I
wasn't sure if that was okay -- in the grander scheme of the community,
detrimental -- which is why I asked here if it was a big deal.

------
araneae
"Be civil. Don't say things you wouldn't say in a face to face conversation."

I certainly don't say things on HN that I wouldn't say in a face to face
conversation, but that's because I'm honest offline as well as on (read: not
civil). It can get me into trouble, but I sure as hell am not going to stop
saying what I think because of downvotes (on HN) or in the name of good
manners (IRL).

~~~
techiferous
Honesty and politeness are generally orthogonal.

~~~
dagw
Popular belief among those lacking social grace. It is quite easy to disagree
with people without being impolite about it. All it requires is a bit social
intelligence and basic good manners. Being an asshole and trying to excuse it
with "I'm just being honest" just makes you a far bigger asshole.

~~~
llimllib
> It is quite easy to disagree with people without being impolite about it.

Maybe for you; I don't doubt its possibility, I just want to say that I find
it extremely difficult to do myself.

~~~
techiferous
And it doesn't always come naturally to me, either. I had to learn. I would
suggest this book; it's the best communication book I've ever read:
[http://www.amazon.com/Creating-Harmonious-Relationships-
Prac...](http://www.amazon.com/Creating-Harmonious-Relationships-Practical-
Empathy/dp/0967274168/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1260048588&sr=8-1)

This book is also a good read: [http://www.amazon.com/Games-People-Play-
Transactional-Analys...](http://www.amazon.com/Games-People-Play-
Transactional-
Analysis/dp/0345410033/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1260048697&sr=8-1)

~~~
araneae
The mind knows how, but the soul is unwilling. I _know_ how to tiptoe around
people, but I greatly prefer being combative.

Which explains why my adviser is currently holding the contents of my
bookshelf locked in her office until I comply with her demands. Score by her,
but I tend to win these battles by not giving a shit.

...and now you all know how immature I am :D.

------
mrlebowski
Would some research in the field help ? I am reading
<http://presnick.people.si.umich.edu//#publications> for a term paper, seems
very relevant. If anyone has read his work before, can you tell us what is
applicable to HN case? I'll post back something when done reading!

------
techiferous
By the way, the fact that there is a continued and unresolved discussion about
voting based on agreement suggests that the voting feature is broken. There is
a design defect in this web software, pg; please consider redesigning it! I
would consider it fixed when a significant majority of users find voting
intuitive and useful.

~~~
pg
An ongoing dispute isn't always (or perhaps even often) a sign that something
is broken. E.g. evolution. If I could think of a better approach I'd implement
it, of course, but I doubt there is one.

~~~
chrischen
Could you try one of our suggested solutions, and as long as it doesn't mess
the whole site up, keep it? And if it doesn't solve our original issue, try
another one of the suggested solutions, and as long as it doesn't screw things
up keep it?

I mean iterate, so that HN can evolve right?

I agree that public sentiment should not always be factored in, as we will
naturally oppose change. So if you test a radically new system you'll get
opposition. But as long as the actual results aren't negative, I think it's at
least progress.

~~~
techiferous
And the new system can be opt-in while it's being tested.

------
pge
I suggest adding one more guideline - before submitting a post, check to see
if it has already been submitted.

~~~
makecheck
Last I checked, identical URLs are automatically prevented. But the
duplication becomes a problem when people decide to submit blog posts, etc.
instead of original articles. There is (usually) only one "best" URL for a
story.

~~~
philwelch
Also an issue when people submit the "printer-friendly version" and also the
ordinary version.

Proposed guideline: submit the "printer-friendly" version?

~~~
thirdusername
and/or have hacker news auto-flag the printer friendly / non-printer friendly
version where it's possible to do so, could be an idea too. :)

------
bonsaitree
It looks like I've been breaking the "use asterisks for emphasis" rule for
years without realizing it.

I've always used _foo_ for code-specific articles, or FOO for a more general
audience, and reserved _foo_ for parenthetical physical actions such as
_shrug_ or _bows_.

My bad.

------
d0m
like/dislike to show opinion. +1/-1 to assure that the post is valid.

------
travisjeffery
They used to be taken seriously.

~~~
NathanKP
Which one do you feel is not being taken seriously? Just wondering.

~~~
travisjeffery
Where shall I start?

First I'll start with submissions: all to often Hacker News looks like any run
of the mill news site. No longer is it the spot I rely on to go and see what
the hackers are up to. Because too often now it's the same junk on Digg.

Comments: the quality of comments on here is pitiful. They're used to be good
discussions and relatively long, well thought and written comments. Again,
like Digg it's getting where people are just doing a 1 line/sentence post
where seems like they're just trying to hit on something that other people
will vote up for more karma points.

~~~
NathanKP
Fair enough. Yet I have to wonder about how you criticized one line posts
after making that one line post yourself: "They used to be taken seriously."

One line posts can sometimes be better than rambling on and one. If you get
straight to the point a pithy statement can be more rewarding. However, there
is definitely a problem with snarky one line put downs as the guidelines
suggest.

------
modelic3
Why is this posted? There is a link for the guidelines at the bottom so what's
the point of making a post of it.

