
Colleges Want Students with Character, but Can’t Measure It (2014) - dnetesn
http://nautil.us/issue/12/feedback/colleges-want-students-with-character-but-cant-measure-it
======
motohagiography
There is a famous old military quote on this topic:

"There are clever, diligent, stupid, and lazy officers. Usually two
characteristics are combined. Some are clever and diligent -- their place is
the General Staff. The next lot are stupid and lazy -- they make up 90 percent
of every army and are suited to routine duties. Anyone who is both clever and
lazy is qualified for the highest leadership duties, because he possesses the
intellectual clarity and the composure necessary for difficult decisions. One
must beware of anyone who is stupid and diligent -- he must not be entrusted
with any responsibility because he will always cause only mischief. "

The qualities of a student and an engineer vs. say, a good hacker or product
manager are wildly different. For a large organization, you need reliable and
focused people to keep it running, where for a startup, you need to find and
actualize outlier potential.

~~~
hindsightbias
> qualified for the highest leadership duties

The problem is that it's hard to stay lazy when everyone wants you to make
more decisions and you're not clever enough to event an AI to do it for you.

~~~
motohagiography
Lazy can be fixed. The others, not so much.

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brobdingnagians
"class-neutral" sounds like code-word for "the most direct measure of
competency doesn't serve our agenda, so we will throw it out". Should colleges
find people who have integrity, honesty, grit and determination, commitment to
ideals? Sure, but I'm not sure that is what this is, because they wouldn't
need to use "class-neutral" in that case. Talent at mathematics is class
neutral, though prior training for it might not be.

If you want to raise a generation of mathematicians, scientists, and
engineers, then "higher education" is for continuing the education they have
already received and adding to it. Parents from different classes give their
children different opportunities and levels of education, fact of life, higher
education is for research and extending human knowledge beyond what normal
institutions do, some classes may not be at that level, and that is okay, they
should receive as much education as possible, but not at the expense of
driving the state of the art. If you want to find those who are prodigies at
mathematics, test their skill at that and hone their gift, regardless of what
class they are.

~~~
jjjensen90
> Parents from different classes give their children different opportunities
> and levels of education...

I don't think this is true, at least they way you've worded it. Typically the
only parents that have any control over their child's "opportunities and
levels of education..." are those in the uppermost classes.

~~~
barrow-rider
> opportunities and levels of education...

Plenty of opportunities and education without being sent to a private school.
IIRC there was a study on kids and race and found that black kids and white
kids did the same through most of elementary school, but the white kids get
sent to summer camp, have an easier time scoring par-time jobs, are around
people with broader vocabularies, and family and friends in different places
which can score educational or employment opportunities down the line.

I didn't grow up particularly well off, but my dad had a subscription to The
Economist, Time, and the local big-city newspaper. He'd read us articles at
dinner and then we'd discuss, or just let us read them later -- which
definitely had an impact. Grandma bought me a chemistry kit one year in middle
school, which helped my science grades later.

None of this stuff was super expensive, certainly no where near private school
costs, but it can absolutely make a difference.

------
flossball
Grit is not unknown in business and has similar problems with hiring. I helped
a start up ran by some executives trying to pitch B average state school
engineers as they reach senior status significantly faster than more
competitive school graduates. HR depts in most tech companies pushed back as
they like to hire top school candidates. Similarly as they pivoted to produce
advanced hiring processes to recommend these students, HRs refused to lower
their days and days of interviews that have low completion rates.

HR is almost always the failure in hiring and I am sure the
recruiting/admissions will fight against whatever 'grit' factors and
measurement is figured out as they still feel good personally about good
grades and test scores.

~~~
hobs
That's because HR does not have the same incentives as the business has, any
hire that's even slightly below average can be blamed on HR, and spending more
and more resources on "the difficult job hunt" also justifies their budget.

When people setup departments that definitely dont have each other's best
interests in mind, its not surprise that fight.

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ericdykstra
"Grit" is basically just Big 5 Personality Traits repackaged in a way that
sounds good, but doesn't predict success better than established things like
trait Conscientiousness or IQ.

Here's one article that summarizes some of the problems:
[https://digest.bps.org.uk/2017/09/15/lets-dial-down-the-
hype...](https://digest.bps.org.uk/2017/09/15/lets-dial-down-the-hype-about-
grit-new-paper-finds-no-association-with-creative-achievement/)

------
notyourday
So. Much. Bullshit.

Colleges want students that would pay the most money which is why they are
heavily recruiting out of state and international students -- out of state
paying out of state fees but potentially qualifying for some scholarships
while international students paying a total rack rate for tuition + housing +
meal plan with no scholarships.

The rest is sprinkles.

~~~
CelestialTeapot
Sorry, no, I work in higher education and that's not how higher education
works. We recruit international students because we want a more diverse class.
Some of them even get merit scholarships from the college.

Right now, the drive is for Hispanic students from the southern and western
states, because that demographic is where the growth in college students will
be domestically.

~~~
notyourday
Hispanic students for Southern and Western states pay out of state tuition
unless they are resident of the same states that colleges are in. So TX
university recruiting a Hispanic student from AZ is recruiting an out of state
student that pays out of state fees.

Merit scholarships issued to international students are akin to mattress
stores discounts - increase list price via fees and discount those fees not to
mention that as a condition of college scholarship one agrees that all
additional money he or she gets as scholarships obtained separately from a
university or a college that money goes back into repaying the scholarship
that was offered by a college.

So say that tuition is $30k a year, room and board is $20k a year and fees are
$3k a year for a student from Poland ( for in state the rate is $20k/$12k/$3k
- room and board is $12k because the school wants in state students to live on
campus and it knows that the dorms are 400% more expensive than the off campus
housing that the parents of the student would be able to easily find out).
Merit scholarship ( 5, for all 679 international students but with that 5 the
school says it offers merit scholarships across the board ) is 50% discount on
tuition. So the international student now has to pay $15k+$20k+$3k to come to
the school vs in state student with no merit scholarship paying $20+$12+$3k.
Oh, look, we diversified and we got more money per student! And we also got
the student to sign that should he or she _get_ a scholarship from some other
organization, the first 15k of it would go back to replenish the merit
scholarship fund of the school.

Source: personal experience.

P.S. I _cannot_ wait until the college system in the US collapses. It would be
glorious to watch everyone who participated in a financial rape of 17-18 year
olds and their families being financially ruined in their 40-60s.

P.P.S. Next time during the college administration all hands make
administration answer why the college has different tuition rates for in
state, out of state and international students and why it does not offer
scholarships/grants/discounts uniformly to everyone.

~~~
barrow-rider
> why the college has different tuition rates for in state, out of state and
> international students

Because if it is a public state university then the in-state tuition rates are
subsidized by the state. The state legislature can also adjust these rates,
set caps or minimums for in-state students, and enforce other rules as they
see fit -- they're paying the bills, after all.

> why it does not offer scholarships/grants/discounts uniformly to everyone

My state did offer a grant to everyone -- a small one, but one nonetheless.

Outside of that, why would you offer grants or scholarships to folks who a)
aren't eligible, and b) who aren't residents of your state or country? Why
would Texas give money to someone who is going to go back to PA, or WA, or
China after college? They have subsidized Unis in their state, and if they
don't want to go there they can help subsidize the schools in a different
state by paying the non-resident rate.

Why would you get access to a scholarship for, say, black students if you're
not black?

That out-of-state and international tuition is higher than in-state isn't new,
and arguably isn't the issue. The issue is that costs, for all parties,
ramping up dramatically while the benefit of the degree (salaries) in the work
place are diminishing.

~~~
notyourday
> Because if it is a public state university then the in-state tuition rates
> are subsidized by the state. The state legislature can also adjust these
> rates, set caps or minimums for in-state students, and enforce other rules
> as they see fit -- they're paying the bills, after all.

GP's claim was that it is all recruiting is in the name of the diversity of
the student body and future student demographics. That's trivially observably
false.

Colleges and universities are concentrating their recruitment offers on the
most profitable students, which are the international and out of state
students because for every non-state student they get to charge more money.

That's why the TX university is interested in recruiting AZ students, rather
than TX students: student with the same demographic from AZ will bring more
revenue to TX university vs the TX student.

~~~
CelestialTeapot
>GP's claim was that it is all recruiting is in the name of the diversity of
the student body and future student demographics. That's trivially observably
false.

>Colleges and universities are concentrating their recruitment offers on the
most profitable students, which are the international and out of state
students because for every non-state student they get to charge more money.

I work at a private university, our tuition is the same regardless where you
come from. Nevertheless, we recruit heavily from domestic students and
international students, each of which have special populations we incentivize
to make a class more diverse, whether it be economically or ethnically.

You're welcome to believe what you want, and, certainly, in the divestment of
the public interest in funding higher education, public schools are feeling
the financial pinch and may be seeking out more students who pay the full
rate, but private (not-for-profit) colleges and universities for the most part
do not engage in such tactics.

------
village-idiot
Grit is an extremely important personality trait, the most important imho, but
you only get to see it when you see someone fail or struggle. It’s not easy to
determine with an individual, let alone with a population.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Kids don't struggle and fail? I think we all know who's who on the Grit scale,
by the time they reach college.

~~~
gaius
I don’t think that’s true. When I arrived at college I was in a group where
most, including myself, had coasted to being one of the top in their previous
classes with minimal effort. Now we all had to actually work. My class of 80
was reduced to 40 by the end of the first term.

~~~
village-idiot
I see that a lot with kids who were labeled as talented or gifted early on.

The question is: can you develop grit, or is it natural? Did you respond to
the new pressures in college, or were you uncovering a latent skill the
remaining 40 did not have?

I genuinely don’t know.

~~~
toast0
I'm pretty sure it's a skill to be developed, although certainly some find it
easier to develop, and some use the new freedoms of adulthood to choose not to
develop the skill.

Based on my experience, and that of my peer group, I've decided it's important
to try to make sure children have some experience with things that are hard,
so they can start developing skills to handle it. For some (most?), this may
not require anything extra; for others, it requires extra effort to provide
activities that are actually a challenge, but also engaging.

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robterrin
"[Applicants] shouldn’t be discounted because [they don't] have one
exceptional skill, nor should [they] be propped up because this lack of one
exceptional skill misleads us into thinking [they are] succeeding only through
[their] own effort like some sort of [academic] Horatio Alger character. It’s
bad for [applicants], it’s very bad for [applicants] of color who never get
the same breaks, and it’s just bad for [education]. Period."

[https://www.draysbay.com/2018/8/13/17678388/tampa-bay-ray-
jo...](https://www.draysbay.com/2018/8/13/17678388/tampa-bay-ray-joey-wendle-
hustle-stereotypes-racism-and-white-privilege-in-baseball-broadcasting)

P.S. Headline should read, "Colleges Say They Want Students with Character..."

------
Balgair
So, in summary, these organizations are struggling with two related factors:
1) How do you predict the future? 2) How do you do that at scale?

In regards to 2) many of these educational places have decided for the past
few decades that test criteria makes some sense. However, they have recently
discovered that the testing metrics have been gamed. Therefore, as the metrics
have become the goals unto themselves, their ability to accomplish 1) has been
diminished to the point of uselessness. They are back at square one (or at
least they were in 2014 when the article was written).

We all know that you really can't predict the future, that black swan events
override all the metrics you could ever come up with. So, the article is
talking about 'grit' as a metric that they could use instead, as it seems to
predict the future a bit better than the SAT. Of course, we all know that the
'grit' metric will be gamed as well. There's a neuron firing somewhere in my
head that is saying: Godel's Incompleteness Theorem, but I think it's a bit
more base than that. The issue is that these higher ed places would LOVE to
really dig deep into a person, but they've not the time or money to do that at
scale.

I think, that like in many militaries and corporations, the issue is not the
selection process, but the construction process. Given the right resources and
support, you can actually turn lead into gold. It's that these institutions
need to support, mentor, and trust their students. However, that is _very_
expensive and takes a long timeline to measure if it works at all. Let alone
what to fix or improve upon. Inherently, it does not scale either. It's messy,
personal, and complex. It's real and not well reflected in charts and tables,
hence the bureaucrats dislike it as it has a null/negative effect on their
careers.

Some good examples of such a process that actually does produce results are
the Free Democratic Schools [0] though they tend to be very liberal arts
focused. Specifically, I'd love to call out Deep Springs College [1] as a
_prime_ example. St. John's College [2] is also structured well in the
'nurture' aspect.

[0][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_democratic_schools#Uni...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_democratic_schools#United_States)

[1][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Springs_College](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Springs_College)

[2][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._John%27s_College_(Annapoli...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._John%27s_College_\(Annapolis/Santa_Fe\))

------
choonway
Maybe you really can't measure 'grit' unless you put the student through
several orthogonal tests and see how he does for the worst.

e.g. to determine whether the monkey or the fish has more 'grit', ask the
monkey how deep it can dive into the ocean depths, and ask the fish how high a
tree can it climb.

~~~
Animats
You can measure grit. The military routinely does. It takes an ordeal like
BUD/S.

~~~
lsc
eh, I would assume (hope) that the 'grit' required to do something physically
unpleasant and the grit required to do something mentally unpleasant would be
different sorts of things.

Some of the best tech workers I've known have been... pretty out of shape.

~~~
jacobush
I saw a documentary about SAS recruits. (British special forces.) The
instructors said that many recruits were in pretty bad shape and that it was
still hard to tell who were going to make it. In the end, those who _just
wouldn 't quit_ made it through.

~~~
lsc
Yeah, gym teachers love to express the same set of beliefs.

I personally think that's a lot like saying anyone who studies hard enough can
become a great programmer. I mean, sure, in both cases, someone who doesn't
try hard isn't going to make it, but most of us aren't going to become SEALs
or Donald Knuth no matter how hard we train.

Really "someone who doesn't try hard enough isn't going to make it" is true of
both and pretty important. From that perspective, if you know some of it is
effort and some of it is innate, but you cant properly measure the innate
part, you are best off telling everyone whatever it is that makes them try
hardest.

(this, of course, is only true if you don't have to pay the cost of failure.
Both businesses and sports coaches are really only concerned about picking out
the very best. the washouts are on their own. An externality)

~~~
sokoloff
I think the SEALs analogy is a good one as I believe, absent cognitive or
other significant impairment, that nearly anyone of average intelligence or
better and a sincere drive to become great can become an excellent programmer.

Imagine what a BUD/S training might look like for programming. It would make
struggling with SICP or the Dragon book look like a walk in a park.

SEALs represent about 1% of active duty Navy. That's elite but not singular
level. Think about the vast swaths of terrible workers you find in any field,
including ours. Whether they're poorly trained, lazy, just going through the
motions, doing just enough to not get fired, I think you'll find it's easy to
beat the bottom half of any cohort with a tiny amount of talent and modest
amount of dedication.

I believe that when we come across the 1 in a million outlier (Knuth, Carmack,
Gosling, Ritchie, et al) that those people combined a lot of raw talent with a
lot of hard work.

But just getting to the 1 in 100 level? Hard work will take you a long, long
way down that road, because most people simply aren't willing to put in that
work.

~~~
lsc
>But just getting to the 1 in 100 level? Hard work will take you a long, long
way down that road, because most people simply aren't willing to put in that
work.

Tell me, do you have a 1 in 100 income? if it's all effort, why not?

~~~
kthejoker2
Among developers? Adjusted for cost of living? Maybe? What's the number.

~~~
lsc
Hm. I was trying to make the point that it's difficult to get to the top 1% of
anything competitive. I was pointing out that just getting to the top 1% of
income among all americans is pretty difficult; but I think you are looking at
around $421,926 a year, according to the first few reasonable-looking hits.

which kinda blows my point up; I know a bunch of married couples who do better
than that in software, (I think it's a per-capita number) and even a few
single earners (though in my circle, that's pretty rare) It's just not that
much money compared to here and now.

Of course, I also think that you can't be a software developer at that level
without an IQ approaching two standard deviations above average, but I
recognize that's a pretty controversial view and I don't have supporting
evidence.

