
Apple announces Apple Card credit card - cdoxsey
https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/25/18277417/apple-pay-credit-card-announcement-goldman-sachs-event-2019
======
throwawaysea
I don't thing it is healthy to have big entities like this control fundamental
services like payment processing. How long before the opaque governance of the
App Store is applied to their payments offering? How long before activists
start making this a new vector for deplatforming? Apple also announced a news
offering ([https://www.techradar.com/news/apple-news-
plus](https://www.techradar.com/news/apple-news-plus)) and I think the same
concerns apply there.

~~~
ralusek
Look no further than the recent issue where Patreon competitor Subscribestar
had payment processors Stripe and PayPal stop processing their payments for
_political_ disagreements with the purported beneficiaries of the donations
through the platform. PayPal said that it was actually one of the underlying
payment processors, and it was suspected to be MasterCard.

That incident was the first time I've ever taken the need for alternative
payment processors very seriously.

~~~
ben_w
I’ve been told political campaigns focused on MC/Visa forced a policy change
on Fetlife (specifically which kinks you’re allowed to admit to being into) a
few years back.

I’m not into the kink which caused it (and I won’t repeat it here) but that
left a bad taste in my mouth. IMO, people should be free to discuss what
they’re into, even when it’s something much more harmful than the kink
involved.

~~~
disillusioned
Stripe de-platformed us because their payment processor (Wells fucking Fargo,
paragons of virtue) didn't like what we were selling, which was fantasy adult
toys. They tried micromanaging the complaint, asking if we could remove "flesh
colored" options, but we weren't going to get dragged down into that.
Ridickulous.

~~~
Freak_NL
Imagine the guidelines they must be following. Somewhere there must be a rule
written down that was once debated by a committee of pious folk that literally
states that flesh-coloured¹ sex toys are not okay (but purple is fine).

1: So that's what? Anything from deep charcoal black to a subtle off-white?

------
abalone
For those of you concerned about the "antitrust" aspect here, the specter of
Apple controlling everything... Keep in mind that Apple has had a partnership-
based branded credit card for _years_ : the Barclaycard Visa with Apple
Rewards. There is nothing fundamentally new in Apple offering a credit card.

What's new here is they're tightly integrating it with Apple Wallet and in
some aspects driving a better deal (like eliminating fees and points and data
brokering). Overall I would characterize their offering as a "competitive"
rewards card. But what's really distinctive here is the elegant Apple-designed
UI around managing your spending and interest charges and rewards, which looks
exceptional.

The other really clever thing is how they've leveraged the iPhone to improve
the security of the backwards-compatible physical card. For non-ApplePay
e-commerce they can rotate the CSC/CVV number you look up on your phone (since
it's not printed on the card). And they can just reach out to you through iOS
with suspicious transaction notifications and strongly re-authenticate you,
instead of relying on antiquated robocalls.

One question I have is whether the card will have a stripe on it or just a
chip. Traditionally merchants would be liable for fraudulent swipes without
properly-checked signatures. If the signatureless card supports swipes,
presumably Goldman Sachs would need to take on that liability now. Maybe that
explains why rewards are 1% on physical card transactions instead of 2%.

~~~
atonse
It does have a stripe. In the video you see the (very tastefully done) stripe
on the top on the back.

~~~
abalone
Ok thanks, and to follow up I forgot that liability for swipes shifted to
merchants a couple years ago regardless of signatures. That is, if a customer
has a chip card and the merchant runs it as a swipe then they’re liable
regardless of whether the signature matches.

Having said that, that doesn’t mean every issuer is going to come after
merchants for this fraud... it’s typically the little mom and pops that
haven’t fully migrated to EMV chip terminals. So maybe the lower rewards gives
Goldman Sachs more leeway to be nice.

------
geddy
I love the app used to manage spending and paying your bill. It'll definitely
be super easy to stay on budget given the fact that you'll have immediate
access to up-to-date spending and trends, whereas if I want to do that with my
Chase account, I need to login, run numbers, etc.

There seems to be a subfocus here about helping you manage your spending,
which I can appreciate. The problem with ease of spending money is ease of
going into debt, I think I could make this work for my wife and I fairly well,
and easily at that.

Of course, the practicality of this for each person depends on their typical
spending patterns and how often they can use Apple Pay in the first place. If
you shop at places that don't accept it, you're pretty much out of luck.

Interesting foray into a gigantic industry that loves preying on people's
inability to be responsible, though. I can think of a lot of people who could
use more oversight with their spending.

~~~
MBCook
They give you a physical card that clearly has an EMV chip. Don’t know if it
includes MSR.

But you should be able to use this almost anywhere, it doesn’t depend on
contactless ApplePay.

~~~
mikelward
They said it doesn't have anything embossed or printed on it, and call it
"beautiful", so I doubt it'll have a mag stripe.

~~~
bradfitz
You can see what sure looks a mag stripe at 2m58s in the video at
[https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/25/18277417/apple-pay-
credit...](https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/25/18277417/apple-pay-credit-card-
announcement-goldman-sachs-event-2019)

Disappointing.

~~~
sethhochberg
Though very few and far between at this point, I'd say there are still a few
times a year when I explicitly need to swipe a magstripe on my credit card -
most recently a rural gas station in the California desert where I was
seriously dependent on being able to fill up a tank.

I think many people, myself included, would still consider a credit card
without the option to fall back to magstripe a nonstarter for their primary
physical payment method.

~~~
banana_giraffe
What about people that use "knuckle-busters" to make a carbon impression of
the card's numbers?

I have a card that has a real number, but doesn't have the embossed numbers on
it, so it too wouldn't work in such a machine.

To be fair, it's been years since I've run into one of those machines, so they
may no longer be used, or people that use them are just used to rejecting
cards they can't impression.

~~~
sethhochberg
As far as I know, writing down the card details manually instead of taking an
imprint is a viable option.

~~~
mlindner
Seems like an easy way to commit fraud. They copy down the numbers and then
you walk way with your merchandise/product and then use apple to revoke the
card number.

------
lol768
This is interesting to observe from the UK.

\- Cashback is generally lower here because interchange fees are
regulated/capped to 0.3% for personal credit cards and 0.2% for personal debit
cards. Offers of 2% cashback simply won't work outside the US so I'll be
curious to see how (if?) they try and expand this globally.

\- "All of the spending tracking and other information is stored directly on
the device, not Apple’s servers" \- can't see how this will work in practice.
If you lose your phone, do you lose information on historical purchases? What
if you want them for your records? Perhaps "spending tracking" just refers to
data derived from the transaction information... but then, couldn't you just
recompute it?

\- "Apple also says that it’ll use machine learning and Apple Maps to label
stores that you use in the app, and use that data to track purchases across
categories like “food and drink” or “shopping.” " \- I guess this is novel in
the United States, but challenger banks like Monzo/Starling have been doing
this for a number of years.

\- "Customers will also be able to track purchases, check balances, and see
when their bill is due right from the app." \- not novel, CC providers like
Amex and banks like Monzo already do all of this, including push
notifications.

\- "To get an Apple Card, users will be able to sign up on their iPhone in the
Apple Wallet app and get a digital card that they can use anywhere Apple Pay
is accepted “within minutes.”" \- again, not novel. If you sign up for a Monzo
account, the KYC checks are done reasonably quickly (certainly same-day IME)
and then your account is open. You can add it to Android Pay
([https://monzo.com/blog/2018/11/19/instant-google-
pay/](https://monzo.com/blog/2018/11/19/instant-google-pay/)) and make
payments, bank transfer money in instantly etc.

Overall, I'm a little perplexed as to why this offering is interesting besides
Apple having announced it.

~~~
dogma1138
I get 2-5% cash back on my American Express Platinum card in the UK...

There are higher cash back cards also the cash back is usually capped on a
monthly basis rather than on a flat %.

So far for this year I have £341.92 cash back on the card.

Mind you that this isn’t a new card I had it for 5 years.

~~~
gsnedders
Amex's own-branded cards aren't subject to the interchange limits, because
they're vertically integrated (and there's no interchange).

~~~
dogma1138
And what exactly would prevent Apple from using the same scheme in the UK and
Europe at large?

~~~
gsnedders
Nothing, except that then their card would have 0% acceptance.

Much harder sell to get people to get the card if no merchants accepts it, and
harder to get merchants to take it if nobody has one. There's a reason why the
credit card market is almost entirely American Express, MasterCard, and Visa.

If they wanted to pay higher cashback than the standard interchange rates
allow, they'd be charging merchants more than they're charged for accepting
MasterCard or Visa, which means you'll end up with at most spotty acceptance
like American Express.

~~~
dogma1138
At least in London I've only seen a handful of places that don't take Amex,
and as of today I can think of only one a coffee shop I sometimes use.

~~~
Cu3PO42
In Germany the acceptance for credit cards only became large scale after the
interchange fee was limited. Today, most stores that accept card payments also
accept credit cards, but only MasterCard and Visa. Using an AMEX as your
primary card would be a pretty bad experience, because you'd constantly need a
backup.

With that said, I'm happy most merchants don't put up with the humongous
fees—in the end the prices are just raised to compensate for them.

~~~
rodgerd
Same in NZ. People who work for more... insular... American companies here are
regularly embarrassed by being unable to use their corporate card (because
e.g. IBM mandate Amex) most of the places they go.

------
ajra
It seems to me that Apple can offer reduced fees due to the fact that they'll
have less fraud as a result of requiring touch/face ID for every purchase.

While interesting, it doesn't come close to solving what I feel is the largest
problem with cards in the US today -- interchange fees.

~~~
onlyrealcuzzo
I know this is a MasterCard, but it'd be more interesting if they were able to
take out the $0.35 transaction fee on every transaction. This is the bread and
butter of every payment processor, and it's complete rent seeking, AND
supposedly all the major processors are going to RAISE it at roughly the same
time in the coming months.

Eliminating the set transaction fee could open up so many potential
businesses. But I'm not sure what incentive Apple has of getting rid of it.
It's a cash cow.

~~~
ceejayoz
Why is the per-transaction fee the rent-seeking part?

I get why MC/Visa have a per-transaction fee. I _don 't_ understand why
there's a percentage of the transaction on top of that. It's not any more work
for a $1 transaction versus a $1,000,000 one on their end.

~~~
onlyrealcuzzo
The percentage fee is 1, for rewards necessary to get people to use the card
and 2, to cover fraud which is actually a MASSIVE problem and 3, to cover
defaults/payment issues.

The per-transaction fee existed to cover the additional cost of building out
the network (literally running cables and wires to the merchants' stores) and
providing card readers. The network is already built and has been paid for
THOUSANDS of times over, and at this point it's largely obsolete. I'm also
pretty sure merchants need to buy their own card readers now.

Finally, the best estimates for the cost to process a transaction is < $0.01.
So that means, they're charging $0.35 for nothing, essentially.

Oh the joys of running a cartel.

~~~
frenchie4111
I have heard running a "cartel" a few times in this thread. I don't understand
this term. Could you explain what you mean by that?

~~~
max76
A cartel is when a few organizations control something of economic value and
act as a single entity in the market. For example, the 1973 oil crisis was
caused when OPEC proclaimed an oil embargo. OPEC, controlling the oil market,
acted as a group to greatly reduce the supply of oil to the United States (and
other ally countries) for political purposes.

EDIT: In this case, payment processing is controlled by a few organizations.
They have agreed to raise their prices at the same time, instead of free
market style competition for the lowest price. They can do this because very
few companies can do payment processing and it is very hard to become a
payment processing company.

------
spectramax
One of the reasons for having a Credit Card for me is the protection from
shady merchants, fraudulent transactions and the assurance of getting my money
back if there is a major issue with product/service.

AMEX once refunded me $1800 for speakers that were damaged in shipping with
some documentation, photos and details about the issue.

Now, customer service varies from bank to bank but AMEX has always had the
best customer service in my view, bar none. I wonder how Apple Card will stack
up to it.

~~~
TecoAndJix
I lost my AMEX on a beach in Hawaii (along with my other forms of payment) and
they wired me emergency cash to hold me over until the replacement card could
arrive. They were nothing but pleasant to me!

------
ocdtrekkie
Most interesting claim is that there are no late fees. If you don't pay it on
time, I presume they're going to stop letting you continue making charges to
the card until you do? But that it never gets you locked into the debt cycle
of so many other cards?

If true, this is the true real innovation.

Or is there interest, but just no fee for not making your payment on time?

~~~
jclardy
There is interest, so you'd still be locked in the cycle. Just a little better
off because they don't charge you $30-50 for paying late.

But it appears they are much more forward on telling you how much interest you
will be paying if you don't pay off the card.

~~~
sf_rob
From their website: Variable APRs range from 13.24% to 24.24% based on
creditworthiness. Rates as of March 2019

~~~
rubyfan
wow, is 13.24% considered good?

~~~
justusthane
For a credit card, yes. That's lower than any of the cards listed on
NerdWallet's "Low Interest Credit Cards" page.

------
Shivetya
I am impressed, however this any some of the other products announced are just
a pinata for anti trust advocates.

however this product to me is the premier product of the event. finally
someone is taking credit card use to the next level in both usability,
features, and security. Most important is the level of privacy they are
offering.

Now if the three percent discount holds true it will be the defacto means of
purchasing from apple.com, similar to how for prime users you pretty much have
to use the amazon/chase card for five percent on all purchases.

~~~
jonlorusso
> this and some of the other products announced are just a pinata for anti
> trust advocates.

I imagined Elizabeth Warren in a fit of rage sitting in her office watching
the livestream.

~~~
r00fus
Why? I think EW is more worried about bigger fish than Apple's entrance into a
crowded market.

~~~
mediocrejoker
Didn't she include apple in her list of companies she wants to break up?

------
amluto
This sounds like a mediocre credit card (2% back but only with Apple Pay — if
you’re okay with cash back on only some transactions, there are much better
cards) with some benefit in the form of a nice experience.

I guess that, if Apple’s marketing power can sell a ton of these, there’s
considerable upside for them, but it doesn’t sound like a truly impressive
innovation.

~~~
microdrum
It's 2% cash back on Apple Pay, 3% cash back on Apple products, and 1% cash
back on non-Apple Pay, non-Apple products.

Do you know a better card that always gives 2% cash back, no cap?

~~~
astura
Fidelity Visa is 2% on everything, no cap, no annual fee.

Citi DoubleCash is 2% on everything, dunno if there's a cap, no annual fee.
(you have to redeem into a bank account, not as statement credit, to get the
full 2%)

USAA Limitless is 2.5% cash back on everything, no cap. (military only, no
longer available), no annual fee.

If you have enough cash invested with Merrill Edge ($100,000, including IRAs)
the Bank of America Travel Rewards earns 2.625% cash back on everything, not
sure of a cap, no annual fee.

If you value Membership Rewards at more than a cent, the American Express Blue
Business Plus earns 2 Membership Rewards per dollar spent on everything,
$50,000 cap, no annual fee.

Discover IT Miles earns 3% cash back on everything the first year, churnable
(you can get a new one every year), no cap, no annual fee.

Alliant Credit Union Cashback Visa earns 3% on everything the first year and
2.5% after that, $60 annual fee (waived the first year), dunno of a cap.

Capital One Venture is (basically) 2% cash back on everything, $95 fee (which
they usually waive if you ask),no cap. Only redeemable towards travel. Has a
fairly large signup bonus.

Barclaycard Arrival Plus is 2% on everything, $95 annual fee, not sure of the
cap. Only redeemable towards travel. Has a fairly large signup bonus.

Paypal Mastercard is 2% on everything, no annual fee, dunno of a cap.

Those are your basic options for no-fuss 2%+ cash back cards. If ApplePay is
required to earn 2%, then I'd say the majority of those cards are better; my
biggest expenses every month are bills (phone, internet, insurance, oil,
electricity, etc) and I don't think I can use ApplePay to pay any of those.

~~~
r00fus
> Discover IT Miles earns 3% cash back on everything the first year, churnable
> (you can get a new one every year), no cap, no annual fee.

I had to look this up - seemed way to good to be true - based on this site
[1], it's "Discover: 1.5 Miles per $1 spent on all purchases."

All your other references check out - the Alliant seems very interesting.
Fidelity requires a Fidelity bank account - too much effort.

However, I am guessing Apple made a lot of hay with the "no late fees" \- and
really identified their target market (ie, not necessarily you & me).

[1] [https://www.discover.com/credit-
cards/compare/?srcCode=GAX5&...](https://www.discover.com/credit-
cards/compare/?srcCode=GAX5&ICMPGN=TOPNAV_CREDITCARD_COMPARE_TAB)

~~~
astura
"Discover: 1.5 Miles per $1 spent on all purchases." \- Yes, but you missed
something, they do a cashback match the first year, making it 3% for the first
year.

[https://www.discover.com/credit-cards/resources/earn-more-
re...](https://www.discover.com/credit-cards/resources/earn-more-rewards-with-
cashback-match/)

>With Cashback Match, Discover automatically matches all the cash back new
cardmembers have earned at the end of their first year on their credit card.1
Discover will apply the match after the first 12 consecutive billing cycles,
within the following one or two billing cycles.

At the end of the first year you can apply for a new one and get cashback
match again for another year. You can hold two Discover cards at once, so the
third year you'd have to close the first card, before applying for a third and
at the fourth year close the second, and so-forth (people talk about actually
doing this, not worth the hassle for me, and I got the USAA Limitless 2.5%
card)

As for a Fidelity account - a Cash Management account has no fees and no
minimums and is a useful account to have (offers ATM reimbursements)

------
nabaraz
With the rise of smartphone payments like Samsung Pay, Android Pay and Apple
Pay , is there even a need for credit cards?

How long until these companies start skipping payment processors like Visa and
Mastercard and take the whole pie?

~~~
bk_mtn_man
I don't live in a tech hub city but in all my shopping I have never seen
anyone use one of the Apple/Samsung payment methods where I live. Even when I
spent months in Silicon Valley I can count the number of times I saw it used
on one hand.

~~~
runako
Here in the Southeast of the US, the adoption of Apple Pay (and I presume
Samsung Pay) has definitely been increasing.

Square/Clover/all the POS's used by coffeeshops and other small businesses
have been taking Apple Pay for a few years now. But recently CVS started
taking it, and CVS is everywhere (~6,200 stores in the US). Whole Foods is on
Apple Pay. I understand Target will be following soon.

It's still not 100% penetration, but it definitely feels like the adoption
expands every time a shop upgrades its POS.

~~~
ryandrake
You don’t just need technology penetration. You also neeed consistently
working devices that inspire confidence to customers that they’ll work.

How often have you done this dance:

1\. Notice the POS reader has an icon on it that vaguely indicates it supports
some kind of NFC payment.

2\. Pull out your phone and wave it around the reader.

3\. No response from reader. Do I need to press something on my phone?

4\. Still no response. The cashier and other customers in line are looking at
you like you are wasting everyone’s time with your high tech crap.

5\. Sheepishly put your phone in your pocket, pull out an actual card, and
mutter something about “I guess it’s not working today...” to the cashier.

Have this awkward experience enough times and you’ll just abandon NFC payments
entirely. Stores should not be allowed to indicate that their systems support
NFC if their reader doesn’t work.

~~~
ddoolin
Anecdotally, this has never happened to me. I briefly mention I'm paying with
Apple Pay almost always and if it's not available/doesn't work, they will let
you know.

------
rietta
I want to know what sort of extended warranty insurance they will provide.
There was no mention of this in the presentation today. They mentioned giving
3% cash back on anything bought from Apple. Right now American Express is
giving me 3% back on all computer purchases and extending AppleCare by 2
additional years. I made the most recent purchase with that card via Apple
Pay.

So if I went out and bought a new MacBook Pro today, either AppleCare or
American Express will pay to repair or replace it for the next 5 years, until
March 25, 2025. (Just for using the card).

~~~
jakebasile
If it doesn't have a good extended warranty, purchase protection, and so on I
can see myself getting it for fun but I wouldn't use it as my daily driver. My
Amex has these things and it's one of the primary reasons I use that card.

~~~
rietta
In 20 years of being a "member", I would say that American Express has had the
best customer service of any bank I've ever dealt with. It has been painless
even when traveling and when I have had to rent a car I've always just waived
the rental insurance too.

I have the credit card but pay it off monthly and only charge what I can
afford at the time. As such a member, paying no interest and having received
many thousands of dollars in savings has been great. They "win" if you run a
balance of course. Ouchie rates.

------
AznHisoka
Just allow me to create as many 'virtual' credit cards from a single card and
that's enough. Every single provider that promised that feature has either
underwhelmed, or gone out of business.

~~~
onlyrealcuzzo
Yes. I'm so sick of businesses relying on people not cancelling to exist, and
thereby making their calcellation process as time consuming and obtuse as
possible to reduce consumers chances of cancelling.

Consumers should be able to just NOT pay for a service, and then it's on the
service-provider to turn off the customer's access.

I can't tell you the amount of services I've past up on simply because I don't
want to (potentially) deal with an awful cancellation process, and then go
through the hassle of charging back on my CC. It's just not worth the time --
and they know it and depend on it -- which is frankly disgusting. Invest some
time in a better product...

~~~
vtange
Does their data remain though? If it does then your data would still be in
danger of hackers if said business got attacked, etc. Aren't businesses
supposed to treat customer data as liabilities now?

Some consumers would want complete removal of their data after deciding not to
continue paying for service.

~~~
convolvatron
just to reflect your attitude, why should we trust them to delete our data?
why do we even tolerate a background level of fraud at all?

how about this - I dont use my cards that often - maybe 20 times a week. i'd
be much happier if i got a notification through a side channel with a proposed
charge and I could click 'yes' or 'no'.

it makes alot more sense to me than having to poll my account to look for
potential fraud and argue with the bank about re-issuing a card with a new
number.

wouldn't that be simple? i understand that for some usage patterns that would
be inconvenient.

the broader point is that I shouldn't need to expose personal information just
to buy a tea towel, I shouldn't even have to give you my email address so you
can start sending my helpful hints about how awesome your other products are.

------
maxxxxx
Not sure what to think of this. Somehow I would prefer if Apple kept building
technology platforms that then enable other parties to develop solutions but
instead they seem to be moving into a totally integrated platform. The
business success is there but from a technology point of view I find Apple has
been pretty unexciting over the last years. They have turned into a well run
big tech company like Microsoft under Ballmer. Good business but not very
exciting.

~~~
beenBoutIT
To be fair, the guy behind all of their innovation died more than a decade
ago.

~~~
ceejayoz
I don't think it's fair say that.

Jobs had an unparalleled way of _steering_ that innovation into productive
avenues. He always had his Wozzes, though.

~~~
maxxxxx
I think his main talent was to recognize innovation and then having a good
instinct for the right timing to get to market. Some people are too early,
some too late, but Jobs often seemed to find the right time and also had the
courage to pursue something risky.

Cook probably is more like a typical manager who is good at optimizing things.
Nothing wrong about that but I wouldn't expect big leaps from Apple under him.

------
olivermarks
[https://www.economist.com/business/2017/10/28/apple-
should-s...](https://www.economist.com/business/2017/10/28/apple-should-
shrink-its-finance-arm-before-it-goes-bananas)

(2017) 'The world’s biggest firm has a financial arm half the size of Goldman
Sachs'

'...Apple says that its “value-at-risk” (VAR), a statistical measure of the
maximum likely loss in an average day, is $434m. That is huge: similar to the
combined VAR of the world’s top ten investment banks. In theory losses on
derivatives would be offset by gains in the value of Apple’s underlying
business. But the sheer size of these positions gives pause for thought.'

'...Its foreign operation swims in cash while its domestic one drowns in debt.
Profits made abroad are kept in foreign subsidiaries. That way Apple does not
pay the 35% levy America charges when earnings are repatriated. Some 94% of
Apple Capital’s assets are “offshore” and cannot be tapped for ordinary
purposes. The domestic business must do the hard work of paying for dividends
and buy-backs. Its profits are not big enough to cover these, so it borrows.
Domestic net debts have risen to $92bn, or five times domestic gross operating
profits. Each year Apple must issue $30bn of bonds (including refinancing),
similar to the average of Wall Street’s five largest firms.

 _Apple’s core business is so profitable that it is—almost—inconceivable that
a blow-up at Apple Capital could lead to it needing taxpayer or central-bank
support, as was the case for GM and GE. Still, it is easy to imagine how Apple
Capital could hurt its parent. A market shock could lead to losses on its
portfolios. A two-percentage-point rise in interest rates would result in a
loss of $10bn. If bond markets dried up, Apple might struggle to issue so much
debt and have to bring home funds, incurring a big tax bill. It might also
become tricky to run such a big derivatives portfolio. '_

~~~
jonknee
What's your point with this outdated article? Tons of companies have branded
credit cards, it does not mean they have the credit risk. That's what Goldman
is for in this situation.

------
jwagenet
How does something like this work in Europe with no signature on the card?
When I tried to use a US card without a PIN that I hadn't yet signed, a German
checker made a fuss about the missing signature. This isn't a problem in the
US where no one bothers checking the signature.

What about a brewery I went to this weekend where neither swipe or chip was
available for their POS and the card number was manually entered?

~~~
pisarzp
We use chip&pin in europe. It looks like Apple card supports it and you'll be
fine

~~~
jwagenet
I assume they support PIN, but US issuers don't often offer PIN creation in my
experience.

------
ckastner
> get a digital card that they can use anywhere Apple Pay

Apply Pay users: how broad is Apply Pay adoption? Is this a viable replacement
for a VISA, Mastercard or AMEX?

I'm intrigued by the privacy angle to this, seeing as VISA and Mastercard
apparently share and/or sell a lot of transaction data with/to third parties.

Edit: The article has been updated: _As rumored, Apple is partnering with
Goldman Sachs for Apple Card, with Mastercard handling payment processing._
The mastercard network, plus the benefits Apples is offering (eg 2pct
cashback), could make this _really_ attractive.

~~~
siculars
I use Apple pay wherever possible. It is far quicker and more convenient than
either cash, chip card or swipe in that order.

Besides convenience, security and privacy are the backstop for my usage. I
just trust Apple more to not be sleezy with my transaction history.

~~~
dwighttk
I'm not as much of a fan of it with faceID as I was with touchID. Double
tapping the lock button is awkward.

~~~
saagarjha
Compared to touching the Touch ID sensor?

~~~
dwighttk
yes, the touch ID sensor was near my fingers, the lock button is far from my
fingers.

------
photonios
I got all excited and then realized that almost none of the new services that
were announced will offer me anything as a European.

Apple Card most likely won't be coming to Europe any time soon. The streaming
service is also not likely to come to Europe as it includes US-only services
such as Hulu and Amazon Prime.

I am aware that this is a bit of a 1st world problem, but all of these
services being US-only can be really annoying. Recently I tried to legally
stream Battlestar Galatica in Europe. Not available on Netflix or HBO. So I
figured I can rent the show from iTunes. Nope, only in the US. How about
Amazon Prime? Nope. US only. In the end, I pirated it from one of the private
torrent trackers we have here. I was willing to pay and watch it legally. But
aside from ordering the blu-ray discs, I had no choice. Wanna keep piracy
alive? This is how you do it.

I do understand why these services are not _yet_ available in Europe. It
doesn't make it less annoying though.

~~~
miguelrochefort
Americans don't realize how good they have it. A few years ago, I made a list
of over 100 things that are available/possible in the US but not in Canada. It
almost made me feel like Canada was a third world country. I'm sure I could
find it.

Here are some examples I can remember:

\- Amazon Prime

\- Amazon selection and prices

\- Amazon Dash

\- Amazon groceries

\- Amazon third-party selling

\- Free shipping in most online stores

\- Google Pay, Apple Pay, Samsung Pay (now available in Canada)

\- Google Voice

\- Google Fi

\- T-Mobile unlimited international data

\- Credit card churning

\- Credit card cashback (up to 6%)

\- No taxes on online purchases

\- Most prestigious schools in the world

\- Netflix content

\- MoviePass

\- YouTube Red

\- Venmo

\- Pandora

\- Spotify (now available in Canada)

\- McDonald's dollar menu, $5 pizza

\- Bitcoin exchanges (some options in Canada now)

\- Charles Schwab (no international fee)

\- Robinhood (zero fee stock trading)

\- Cheap Costco booze

\- Uber (now available in Canada)

\- Airbnb (now available in Canada)

\- Planet Fitness ($10, 24-hour gym chain)

\- Walmart open 24/7, can camp in parking for free

\- You can carry a knife

\- Super Bowl ads

\- US dollar (most recognized and best exchange rates internationally)

\- Dirt cheap chicken and eggs

\- Grass fed butter (not strictly US, but impossible to find in Quebec)

\- Google Maps satellite resolution and Street view (now available in Canada)

\- Best military

\- Best Olympic athletes

\- Best sport leagues

\- Best space program (NASA)

\- Most bands tour in USA

\- Trader Joe's, Aldi

\- You can find American brands (restaurants, foods, cars, clothes, sport
teams, movies, electronics) everywhere in the world

\- Over 90% of movies and TV shows I've watched are from the US

\- Over 50% of the music I listen to is from the US

\- Over 90% of podcasts I listen to are from the US

\- FAANG, and the quality/compensation of American tech companies

\- Most popular guitar brands are American

\- Some of the most diverse climate and natural landmarks (Redwoods, Grand
Canyon, Yellowstone, Yosemite, beaches, deserts, Alaska, Hawaii)

\- The world knows more about US politics than their own country's politics
(at least that's my case, e.g., everyone can name the US president)

\- Most online communities (HN, Reddit) are US-centric (they assume every user
is an American)

~~~
icelancer
> Americans don't realize how good they have it.

Some of us do (me, for example). Travel enough and you realize what is
actually awesome about America.

But complaining is something Americans do exceptionally well. It is at our
core. Just how it is.

~~~
briandear
And complaining about Americans is something the rest of the world does pretty
well.

~~~
icelancer
As is their right!

------
w-m
There was a big emphasis on privacy. Apple does all the categorization and
geolocation on device. There was a slide dedicated to the point that Goldman
Sachs will never share the data with advertisers.

But no word on MasterCard. Will they share the data, is that their business?

~~~
dlubarov
The thing is, even if MasterCard excluded Apple Card from the data they sell,
very few merchants send transactions directly to MasterCard. There's usually a
merchant acquirer involved, and that acquirer might proxy transactions through
Visa rather than integrating with the other networks directly. In that case
the merchant, the acquirer, Visa, MasterCard and Goldman Sachs would all see
the transaction data.

Plus there are normally other companies involved when a transaction is settled
later, like First Data.

~~~
fragmede
It goes Customer -> Merchant -> payment processor (eg PayPal) -> acquirer (eg
First Data in the US) -> Visa or MC -> bank the CC comes from (issuing bank)

CC transactions are all settled later.

------
OkGoDoIt
If the credit card does not have any numbers on it, how do you make purchases
online on sites that don’t directly accept Apple Pay? Does the Wallet app on
your iPhone generate virtual card numbers on request that you can use online?
Or are you only allowed to use it at websites that explicitly accept Apple
Pay? I read through all the official Apple PR stuff and the fine print, don’t
see any mention of this.

~~~
OkGoDoIt
Another thing to note about having no numbers, I sometimes volunteer to run
the box office at a local theater, and we have a little Square reader that
only accepts magstrips. But often it doesn’t seem to work properly, so I end
up typing the numbers in manually in the Square app. I know it’s not ideal,
but when you’ve got 10 people in line you just need to get it moving somehow.
How would a store employee deal with a card having no numbers in this
situation?

~~~
trillic
If you're using Square/Stripe they should just be using Apple Pay anyways it's
more secure. If the consumer doesn't have or understand that option I'd
recommend they pull up the card number in the app. I use an online-only bank
and with my phone and laptop in my pockets it'd probably take me about the
same amount of time to pull out a credit card as it would to open my bank app
with TouchID.

I had a card that won't swipe pretty frequently, after having to have my
number typed or to produce a new card for the 3rd time I finally just reported
mine broken and a new one was overnighted to me.

I've always thought that its the customers burden to produce a working payment
method. If I got skipped in line because my card didn't work I'd have no
problems letting someone else go ahead of me while I fumbled around with my
phone and wallet.

------
m3at
This blog post [1] from 2016 seems prescient, linking Apple's stance on
privacy with it's hypothesized desire to become a bank. It was a good read,
hence why it jumped back to mind 3 years later.

Key point:

"Here's my theory: Apple see their long term future as including a global
secure payments infrastructure that takes over the role of Visa and
Mastercard's networks—and ultimately of spawning a retail banking subsidiary
to provide financial services directly, backed by some of their cash
stockpile. "

\---------

[1] [http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-
static/2016/03/follow-t...](http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-
static/2016/03/follow-the-money-apple-vs-the-.html)

------
csbowe
> There will be a physical titanium card, too, but there’s no credit card
> number, CVV, expiration date, or signature. All of that authorization
> information is stored directly in the Apple Wallet app.

Does this mean that the card doesn't contain sensitive information in the chip
or mag stripe? Will only work if it's near your phone?

If so, this is quite different from status quo, and touches on what the Coin
card failed to do.

~~~
wmf
It's likely just a regular card and the stripe will be clonable. Saying
there's "no number" sounds like a gimmick that has nothing to do with real
risks.

------
fumar
I like the value proposition; simple and more transparent credit management
with increased privacy. This now has to complete with cards that have consumer
purchase protection, customer service, and airline benefits.

------
gondo
Official announcement [https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/03/introducing-
apple-car...](https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/03/introducing-apple-card-a-
new-kind-of-credit-card-created-by-apple/)

"Apple Card will be available to qualified customers in the US this summer."
so US only

------
buboard
I use to snob apple's announcements but really wish this one succeeds. Banks
need to feel the pressure hard.

~~~
CedarMadness
It's a Goldman Sachs Mastercard with some Apple-specific perks, banks aren't
going to be feeling anything.

------
jdlyga
2% if you use Apple Pay, and 1% if you use the physical card. That's not a
very competitive offering.

~~~
spectramax
I think the whole idea of "Cash back" is insane. _Someone_ , i.e. the
consumer, is ultimately paying for these rewards, whether it is airline miles
or cashback % or whatever.

It is a self-propelling idea that would be almost impossible to kill because
doing so would make your credit card offering less competitive.

It is also self-propelling from the consumer end. If you don't take advantage
of these rewards, you're paying for everyone else's rewards by buying goods
and services at a higher price. Some merchants flat out deny certain credit
cards such as AMEX.

~~~
AnssiH
Agreed, I don't think it is a coincidence that here in Finland VISA/MC credit
cards don't offer cashback and the merchant fees are much lower than US (Nets
offers 0.31% for EU consumer VISA/MC debit cards and 0.9% for EU consumer
VISA/MC credit cards).

Though I guess lower fraud rate due to chip-and-pin requirement also plays a
part.

------
cygned
It sounds like Apple's doing a lot of things very right with Card. I am
curious when it's going to be available here in Germany.

~~~
chrisseaton
I’ve found in the past Germans aren’t always keen on credit cards - they often
push back when you try to use them in shops and restaurants and things like
ticket machines at railways only seem to take regional debit cards. Trying to
use an American Express gets a very bad reaction. Is that changing?

~~~
kevingrahl
German here; MasterCard and Visa are accepted almost everywhere even the
smallest shop usually offers contactless payments (tap). Amex on the other
hand is a rarity and you should expect that it doesn’t work.

~~~
mrweasel
I not sure how different Germany and Denmark is in this regard, but both the
MasterCard and VISA branded cards in Denmark is nearly always debit cards, not
credit cards.

For reading the comments it seems like people are exited about the Apple Card
solving a set of problem I simply don't see most people having here in
Denmark.

------
nabaraz
Highlights:

\- 2% on all Apple Pay purchases

\- 3% on Apple purchases.

\- Zero fees

\- Virtual card numbers

\- Privacy

~~~
wnevets
>\- Virtual card numbers

can you create your own?

~~~
nerfhammer
Probably a temporary CC number generator for internet purchases.

You would not be able to "choose" a vanity number of your own choosing besides
being really insecure but also because CC numbers have to fit an algorithmic
pattern to be valid:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luhn_algorithm](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luhn_algorithm)

~~~
wnevets
Wasn't expecting a vanity number but creating a different number for each
service. Something like what capital one has [1]. There would be a number for
Netflix and a different number for fios.

[1][https://www.capitalone.com/applications/eno/virtualnumbers/](https://www.capitalone.com/applications/eno/virtualnumbers/)

~~~
nerfhammer
Oh, lots of card issuers have that these days.

------
pweezy
Whatever the potential additions for Apple's service revenue, this seems like
it will be a highly effective weapon to add to the arsenal for customer
retention.

Switching to an Android phone at your next phone upgrade cycle will be a lot
harder if it also means you need to switch your credit card. Plus, giving
users a better rewards rate for using Apple Pay over the physical credit card
will encourage them to build the habit of paying with their actual iPhone (and
as a follow on effect, probably help encourage further Apple Pay adoption
among merchants).

Smart defensive move as device manufacturers face an ever more saturated
market.

------
mklarmann
As a non US person. Can someone explain the innovation of this? What should be
better here? Is there anything I have missed? As I understand from the
Wikileaks cables, the American government prevented Russia to establish their
own credit card system. So they can better spy on the people as they have full
access to MasterCard and visacards transactions. So how can this be about
privacy?

~~~
BaconJuice
> As I understand from the Wikileaks cables, the American government prevented
> Russia to establish their own credit card system. So they can better spy on
> the people as they have full access to MasterCard and visacards
> transactions.

Hi, do you mind linking me to some sources to this claim?

------
stblack
There are some companies I will NEVER voluntarily do business with.

Goldman Sachs is among them.

~~~
beenBoutIT
Bernie Sanders railing against Apple/Goldman Sachs = Priceless

------
zencash
I'm guessing the 'virtual' aspect of this card will be activated relatively
soon - before the physical delivery of the new sleek metal card.

Small businesses are the ones who still get bitten by fees, not just on
payment processor level but on the physical machines themselves, the fees are
still pretty high with some of the larger players locking companies into
longer contracts too. [1] This needs to change.

There seems to be a lot of consolidation playing out too with the likes of
WorldPay (who are the largest payment processor here in the UK) getting
acquired [2].

[1]
[https://merchantcards.co.uk/providers/](https://merchantcards.co.uk/providers/)
[2] [https://www.finextra.com/pressarticle/72211/vantiv-closes-
wo...](https://www.finextra.com/pressarticle/72211/vantiv-closes-worldpay-
acquisition)

[1]

------
ggm
When will they confirm every non-US jurisdiction for meeting compliance in
FinTech? i.e. is this just another 'in the US market' announcement? Maybe for
apple that IS the market. For Google, its been acknowledged that whilst
mountain view likes to release in the USA first, and it is the single biggest
market they have, its not actually bigger than the others put together: far
from it.

Secondly, Most cards run for profit on card processing fees. They are a profit
centre to the bank. Is apple running this at a loss for other reasons or is
this model of card cash-positive inside 1 year? Because its a long way to the
bottom when you have a giant pile of cash, but at some time, in a year based
financial reporting regime they will have to account for this thing, and if
its not visibly in profit then either they have an opportunity cost/loss or a
real world loss.

------
sasasassy
Commenting on the video of the event in 7 minutes:

1\. Apple News was announced again? I think it was already released wasn't it?
Still not interested though. No matter how much "AI" they use to make
recommendations.

2\. Being forced to have an iPhone to have a credit card that seems like any
other card sounds like a terrible idea. Plus where I live we already have
multiple apps and services that allows me to create an infinite amount of
cards and transfer money with zero fees.

3\. The single game subscription seems interesting, specially the part where
they say they can also be played offline. I wonder how they do that. I don't
play games anymore, still, interesting, wouldn't mind trying it.

4\. tv.channels looks like other similar services, and they seem to imply you
can only use their app on smart TVs and their devices, which is a big no-no.
Still, if with good shows and price competitive...

------
mariojv
I wonder if the extra cash back for Apple Pay will help spread the adoption of
contactless payment. I imagine consumers might shop more at places that take
it for the extra cash, and more vendors may start accepting contactless to
lure those customers. I guess this depends on how many people end up using the
card.

------
ksec
686 Comments,

300 of those are Apple getting too much power and stepping into your payment.
And Needs to break up Apple or Google or Amazon or whatever. Not sure why it
matters as this is not Apple's first CC, they have had Barclaycard Visa with
Apple Rewards as told in the 2nd Section Comment.

200 of those are Apple Card not having the best Rebate, as there are many
other cards offering much higher rebate with no annual fees. I mean seriously,
did anyone expect Apple to offer the best Rebate Card? No one is mentioning
You are basically trading around 1% of your Spending discount for your privacy
and Data. Along with better Financial Planning from your Data on Devices.

100 of those are about Visa / Master having duopoly and getting all the money.
Well there are actually lots of other companies, transaction fees, cost and
Interchange fees involves and Fraud Protection.

------
jscholes
> there’s no credit card number, CVV, expiration date, or signature, with all
> that authorization information stored directly in the Apple Wallet app.

I understand the point is to increase Apple Pay usage, but how would I use
this card with online websites which don't support Apple Pay?

~~~
twostorytower
That information is available in the Apple Wallet app, just not on the
physical card.

------
jammygit
“Goldman Sachs will never sell your data to third parties for marketing and
advertising.”

What if we wanted a more general promise to not sell our data at all? Or to
not use it for anything at all except for processing transactions? The
loophole is so big one could drive a truck through it

~~~
fancyfish
Exactly, will they sell this data to hedge funds? Research analysts?

------
harsan
In terms of just rewards, is this card competitive with current offerings?

3% on Apple products is great. However, I only buy a new product once every
half, minus Apple TV subscription.

The 2% cashback is only on purchases made through Apple Pay. I already carry
the Citi Double Cash card, which does this.

------
netsharc
I remember reading an article a few years ago that said Apple has so much
money overseas, the most logical thing they can do is to start a bank. Can't
find it atm (I'm on mobile). But maybe that has changed after the GOP's tax
law changes.

~~~
pageandrew
They aren't starting a bank. Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs and is on
the MasterCard network.

~~~
sangnoir
Partnering with a bank to learn the ins and outs could be the first step
towards starting a bank. Apple in/famously partnered with Motorola on the ROKR
to get a feel of the industry.

------
codazoda
I wonder how this is reconciled.

"Apple also says that it’ll use machine learning and Apple Maps to label
stores that you use in the app, and use that data to track purchases across
categories like “food and drink” or “shopping.”"

"Like many of Apple’s products, privacy is a big push here. “Apple doesn’t
know what you bought, where you bought it, and how much you paid for it,” said
Jennifer Bailey, VP of Apple Pay. All of the spending tracking and other
information is stored directly on the device, not Apple’s servers. The company
also promises that “Goldman Sachs will never sell your data to third parties
for marketing and advertising.”"

~~~
aeontech
Isn't that in the very quote? "All of the spending tracking and other
information is stored directly on the device, not Apple’s servers."

Apple Maps 'significant locations' feature and similar are also on-device only
- Apple does not know where your home or work is – your phone does, but that
data never leaves it.

MasterCard obviously knows what you purchase and where, as they are the ones
processing the transaction, but that data transits Apple's servers in
encrypted form, which Apple is unable to read by design, I expect.

------
czbond
I laughed only when I read the last sentence "The company also promises that
“Goldman Sachs will never sell your data to third parties for marketing and
advertising.” Never trust Goldman when a profit is already built in.

~~~
timdellinger
Aren't these recognized as "weasel words" nowadays? We won't sell your data,
but maybe we'll sell a _summary_ of your data, or maybe we'll use the data to
put you in a category, and sell a list of members of the category, or...

------
jmsuth
I wonder if Plaid or Yodlee will be able to pull balances and transactions
from it

------
intopieces
No mention of whether Apple+Goldman Sachs will take over the 0% financing
currently handled by BarclayCard for new Apple products. That company’s
implementation is antithetical to the values expressed by Apple at this
announcement: they retroactively apply interest if you miss a payment or don’t
pay off the balance before the promotional period ends; the promo period
varies by the amount purchased and the dates only appear on a PDF of the
statement; rewards are doled out only after accruing at a certain amount
(expressed as points), etc

------
jak92
How is it private? Seems like all the metadata is still there...

~~~
durability
In the stream they seem to suggest that it’s “private” in the sense of

1\. Apple doesn’t get any information (it’s all done on-device) 2\. The data
GS gets (and probably needs to keep, for auditing/paper trail) they “will
never sell.” This probably means they have some kind of special agreement?

Not sure what MasterCard would get though.

~~~
kevin_b_er
As it goes thru mastercard's network, they will get who your card bought from,
the [hidden] card number at the time, and the name on the card. Unless Apple
has gotten mastercard to not generate any of that data, there's a standard CC
hidden in there. There's also a name attached to it. Merchants get bits of
this data for fraud prevention. They get it from Mastercard.

------
nmstoker
What interests me is that they've clearly gone after the dark patterns of
their opponents or their blatantly obvious unimplemented features (ie better
use of mapping to categories behaviour or clear statements about not abusing
the data they gather).

This is a much more compelling sales pitch than "forget about these suspicious
practices, everyone does that, but hey isn't this convenient!" which is so
common now with the others.

------
lgleason
This should be interesting to watch. Most of the big issues are moving online
payments over to a 3d secure spec. 3DS is analogous to what the chip and pin
did for physical credit cards when upgrading from magnetic strips.

The thing is, it requires the capturing of all of the information Apple claims
to not be gathering and then some....in fact, depending on the device you are
using it on some of the data capture for 3DS can be downright creepy.

~~~
Marsymars
> Most of the big issues are moving online payments over to a 3d secure spec.

Are they? I had to look this up to see that it's referring to the "Verified by
Visa" and "MasterCard SecureCode" products. I had to sign up years ago (2007
for Visa, 2011 for Mastecard) for each of these for some online purchase, but
can probably count on a single hand the number of times I've used them, and I
think at this point it's been years since I've used either.

------
microdrum
Today was really disappointing. Takeaway: Apple spent untold shareholder
dollars to pay Oprah to say "Appllllllllllle!"

------
eatbitseveryday
Does applying for the card require Apple/GS pull my credit history? I would
also prefer this remain unavailable to them.

~~~
pageandrew
I'm sure it does. They need to verify that you're qualified for credit.

I don't believe Apple itself would be the party pulling your credit history
though. They've partnered with Goldman Sachs as the issuing bank, so it would
probably be Goldman that runs your credit.

~~~
eatbitseveryday
How does this work outside of the USA? The credit system here is only for
individuals resident in this country, correct?

~~~
kgwgk
It doesn't work at all outside the USA. I think it may be a long time before
they go abroad.

------
apeace
> Apple doesn’t know what you bought, where you bought it, and how much you
> paid for it

But surely many intermediaries do know this information and store it forever?

I'm not sure I see the value of _Apple_ not knowing this information, when
credit cards are inherently one of the most trackable and most-tracked
purchasing mechanisms ever.

~~~
exegete
I see the value in not allowing another party in on the transaction data.
You're correct that there are other parties that by their nature have to have
that information (the merchant, the bank issuing the card, and Mastercard).
But, it's good to know that the maker of the device doesn't know it as well.

------
downandout
It's bad that the card doesn't have a printed number on it. Many merchant
systems require merchants to type in the last 4 printed digits on the card for
transactions over a certain amount. Some hotels require it, no matter what the
amount. These transactions won't go through with Apple Card.

------
bit_logic
Does Apple Pay and Google Pay work anywhere I see the tap symbol (looks like a
rotated wifi symbol)? Or they must also display the Apple or Google Pay
symbol? I've seen places that just have the tap symbol and wondered if I
could've used my phone.

~~~
romainsestier
Yes Apple pay and Google pay do work with all contactless payment terminals,
however your card may not. If the business does not accept Amex for example,
using Apple Pay or Google Pay will not work unless you pick a different card.

------
bxio
Innovative privacy features in exchange for sub-par rewards. RIP us North of
the border, though.

~~~
freyir
2% cash back on all purchases through the phone with no annual fees?

I’d wager this is much better than what the majority of Americans currently
have.

~~~
jumbopapa
There's multiple 2% cards with no fees.. Citi Double Cash, Fidelity Visa,
PenFed Power Cash

Not to mention cards like the Chase Freedom Unlimited where 1.5% is closer to
3% when redeemed through their travel portal.

~~~
freyir
Right. Those are the best unlimited rates you can get, and Apple is matching
that rate with their digital card.

The downside is that their physical card rate (1%) is not as competitive, but
they're trying to nudge people/businesses towards digital payments.

------
chvid
I hope this is expanded beyond the US. I would get in a heartbeat; if Apple
can expand this offering to Europe and other parts of the world with very
little use of credit cards they will be able to create new business at a
massive scale.

~~~
pisarzp
The problem is credit card business in US is a)much more profitable due to
significantly higher interchange fees and b)credit cards adoption is much
higher.

~~~
benhurmarcel
Credit cards would be more popular in Europe if they offered any significant
benefit at all.

------
aarbor989
Would they be able to start offering discounts for those who make purchases
with an Apple Card vs other credit card? Would be interesting to see if we are
having a “credit card neutrality” discussion here in the not too distant
future.

------
skybrian
"Variable APRs range from 13.24% to 24.24% based on creditworthiness. Rates as
of March 2019."

[https://www.apple.com/apple-card/](https://www.apple.com/apple-card/)

------
standardUser
Seems like a subpar card in terms of points. I also find it odd that Apple, a
company notoriously averse to discounts and deals, is entering a sector
absolutely dominated by nothing but discounts and deals.

~~~
sfotm
Far as I know, this doesn't come with an annual fee. If you only plan to use
it with Apple Pay, it's competitive with Citi Double Cash, which is considered
one of the top tier cash-back cards you don't pay yearly for. It seems fairly
competitive to me.

~~~
standardUser
"If you only plan to use it with Apple Pay"

That's simply not possible, is it? In terms of an all purpose spending card?

I see this as a 1% card with special "categories" that I don't care to keep
track of. The world is littered with those. Double Cash is OK, but has
international transaction fees last time I checked.

------
momentmaker
This presentation by a16z talks about the next gen tech of consumer spending:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gK9owf0PSZU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gK9owf0PSZU)

------
thegayngler
Is it a secured card? How do they determine the credit card limit?

------
mrweasel
How does one pay the bill to Apple? I never owned a credit card, only debit
cards, and they are tied to your bank account. As I understand it, bank
transfers pretty much doesn't work in the US and it not really the way you'd
want customers to pay of credit card bills anyway.

Denmark has a services that will ensure that your bills are paid
automatically, on time, from a bank account you choose. I just never heard
that the US having anything similar.

I would assume that you can't pay of you bill with another credit card, seeing
as that would be illegal, at least in some countries.

~~~
crooked-v
The same way as you pay the bill to any other credit card company: scheduled
transfers that pull money from a bank account. (No, this doesn't require any
verification on the bank side of things. Yes, this only requires the same
routing and account number info printed on every check you write.)

------
gigatexal
I for one love this card and Apple’s direction. I’ll be signing up ASAP.

No fees. No penalties. Baked into iOS via the wallet and cash back available
daily? Count me in!

~~~
gigatexal
Just saw on twitter that the interest rates are 13% to 24%. Ugh.

------
grwthckrmstr
To people complaining about Apple getting too big and whether they should be
allowed to roll out such services. Look at MasterCard and Visa. Lol

------
finaliteration
I’d be curious to know how this affects the Barclaycard-backed Apple Rewards
card. Is it going away? Or will cardholders be migrated over?

------
Raikan10
I wonder how they handle cash backs? It seems surreal to me that Apple is
offering cashbacks on any transaction using its card.

------
jumbopapa
Any news on a signup bonus? The rewards aren't that compelling, so I don't see
a reason to apply without a significant bonus.

------
gesman
Where’s my perks?

Lounge access? Hotel discounts?

No reason for me to switch from my AMEX or Costco card for puny Apple points.

Unless I missed something.

~~~
LikeAnElephant
IMO those kinds of things come out as less financial benefit than just getting
cash back. The exception is for people who travel quite a bit.

For me personally, getting ~2% cash back on every purchase would be better
than a moderate discount when I actually need to stay at a hotel.

Just depends on your situation.

~~~
vinay427
You're assuming those people use that card. In my experience, very few use an
AmEx Platinum, etc. for most of their everyday purchases, because that
wouldn't make sense. You can easily get more than 2% on every purchase (with
4-5% on a majority for some people) if you can make use of travel rewards.

------
manishsharan
Am I the only one who thinks Apple may have run out of ideas? Credit card
business is messy with fraud, late payments, disputes, customer service issues
etc. This will have anything but a positive impact on the Apple brand. Also,
Apple will be a junior partner to Goldman who will do the heavy lifting. Why
would Apple want to be the junior partner to Goldman Sachs?

------
rubicon33
God these apple events always tend to get massively cringey. Was it the
Goldman Sacks partnership? Perhaps it was the titanium credit card I didn't
know I needed... Maybe it was the 30+ minutes devoted to a Netflix clone. Or,
maybe it was Oprah... "All connected throoough APPLE!!!!!!!!!!"

I'm not sure. But somewhere along the way, I lost my lunch.

------
daveheq
Well, if the banks won't do Apple Pay right, I guess Apple will have to do it
themselves.

------
danesparza
I wish they had a debit card. I would love a debit card with all these
features.

~~~
intopieces
Why do you prefer a debit card over a credit card?

~~~
mortenjorck
I don’t know about the OP’s reasoning, but for me, it’s much easier to track
spending with only a debit card than with a credit card that I periodically
pay off from my checking account. A single stream of transactions is much
easier to budget than one that cascades into the other.

~~~
intopieces
That makes sense. Some banks offer the ability to track all accounts in one
place, but my bank’s implementation is not that good and I haven’t found a
good app I can trust to do it.

------
randomacct3847
I could see tech companies banding together to create a Visa competitor.

------
dvduval
Will I need an iPhone to use it? If not, any difference in the benefits?

------
z3t4
What apple sell is social status. Next they will sell clothes and cars.

------
hardlianotion
Looking forward to the super high but achingly cool interest rate.

------
ianai
I just outright don’t want to do banking with Goldman Sachs.

------
speeq
Issued by Goldman Sachs so I guess it's US only?

------
josefresco
"No late fees"

then...

"The company also notes that “late or missed payments will result in
additional interest accumulating toward the customer’s balance."

Reality distortion field is still going strong I see.

------
grivescorbett
I see no advantages over the sapphire reserve.

~~~
sfotm
I don't really see this as a competitor to CSR, and I don't think Apple does
either.

------
baby
Is this any better than Monzo/Revolut?

------
kabacha
Isn't this is almost what Revolut is?

------
jwildeboer
US only?

~~~
yipeedipee
Yeah. Wish it would come to the UK. We have great debit account apps now like
Monzo/Starling but a modern credit card would be amazing.

------
tracker1
Just 30% on everything you buy.

------
dman
Maybe Tim Cook picked this strategy up over dinner with Trump.

Trump - "And all these people lined up to pay me to put my name on their
products".

Tim Cook - _Silently taking notes_

Trump - So, I was telling you about ... Tim, Tim Apple?

Tim Cook - Will be back later, on a call with Goldman + Mastercard.

------
S-E-P
What a shock

------
cbsmith
From the people who brought you privacy...

...we bring you: utter lack of privacy!

------
athenot
The 2% cashback is especially interesting (in the US, for purchases done with
ApplePay). I guess they can get away with a different risk model when they
control more of the payment process & security.

~~~
jumbopapa
That's not really interesting at all. See Citi Double Cash, Fidelity Visa,
PenFed Powercash...

~~~
dwighttk
all of those have pretty big caveats. Citi seems the closest to straight 2%
assuming you pay off your balance all the time, I didn't notice any limits on
how you get your 2%. But they do have late payment fees.

PenFed you have to be active duty military to qualify for 2%... Fidelity you
have to put your 2% (not going to call it "cash") into a Fidelity product, no
balance credits.

~~~
vinay427
That's fair, but with caveats you can also get more than 2% back on every
purchase and 4-5% on many purchases. For many people, that's easily worth it
and I wouldn't settle for a 2% back card.

~~~
davidcollantes
Which card gives you 4-5% cash back?

~~~
jumbopapa
Well if you want to maximize rewards you could use:

\- Chase Freedom / Discover It (Quarterly 5% categories (examples: Wholesale,
Gas, Grocery, Department Stores, Mobile Pay, Home Improvement, etc.))

\- Uber Visa (4% Dining, 3% Travel, 2% Online Purchases, 1% everything else)

\- American Express Blue Cash Everyday (3% Grocery, 2% Gas/Department Stores,
1% everything else)

\- Citi Doublecash (2% everything)

\- Costco Visa (4% Gas, 3% Travel/Dining, 2% Costco, 1% everything else)

\- Amazon Prime Visa (5% Amazon, 2% Dining, Grocery, Pharmacy, 1% everything
else)

These are just the cards I use right now. There are no annual fees, although
some require membership like Costco and Amazon. Pay your balance in full every
month and it's a much better option than debit. There's a bunch of different
ways to maximize rewards. See /r/churning [1] for more info.

[1] [https://www.reddit.com/r/churning](https://www.reddit.com/r/churning)

