

Twitter Bootstrap - benhowdle89
http://benhowdle.im/2012/12/17/twitter-bootstrap/

======
randomdrake
>Don’t be “just another Twitter Bootstrap site”

I find these criticisms regarding the ability to recognize a "Twitter
Bootstrap site" to be inconsiderate of the audience for which the sites were
really created.

Generally speaking, the startup development community exposes themselves to
new websites on a pretty frequent basis. Just because _we_ can recognize a
particular CSS framework, doesn't mean the _intended audience_ of the website
can.

I would be surprised if it wasn't an _extremely_ small percentage of website
users that would be able to recognize "just another Twitter Bootstrap site."

Don't let yourself get caught up in the bubble of the ever-critical
development community. If you're building a site just to please folks within
that community, you should probably do a bit more research on who you really
want your target demographic to be.

~~~
jedc
This happened to me last week. I have near-zero design skills, so I just used
a standard Twitter Bootstrap design for my site. Though I'm still embarrassed
a bit by it, it works for now while I'm working on other more critical
elements.

But I had a friend check out the site recently who went out of her way to
praise the UI; she had expected something much more utilitarian. And I think
this is more common; there are still so, so many BAD sites on the net that
even a standard Bootstrap site is of pretty good quality/usability.

So while I still do plan on upgrading from a fairly default Bootstrap
experience in the future, I'm no longer quite so embarrassed about using it
now.

------
coderdude
>Come on. “Half-decent”. Is this what you want to output? To be known for? I
can’t understand why, if you have an ounce of pride, you’d not want everything
you release to be the best you could do?

This is all a little uppity coming from a blog using the Svbtle theme.

~~~
benhowdle89
I want to take it as a compliment, but I don't feel it was intended like that!

~~~
coderdude
It's not a personal insult if you were taking it like that. I'm pointing out
that it's an odd stance you've taken. The audience that recognizes Bootstrap
layouts and the audience that recognizes the Svbtle theme (or its variations)
are one and the same. More to the point though, if you feel that way about
Bootstrap then you should probably feel the same way about the theme you
chose.

------
bryanlarsen
The universal reaction I get to any standard bootstrap web site I show to
people is "this looks awesome, great work". Nobody outside of the web dev
community knows or cares what Bootstrap is.

I hate Windows, iPhone, Android, OSX and Linux apps that try too hard to look
and behave "different". Much of the hate for flash was because that was the
standard tool people reached for when they wanted to make their sites fancy
and different. I think we'd all be a lot better off if more sites used
Bootstrap rather than less.

------
lmm
If your site's content is any good, half-decent is more than enough for the
design. As a reader, bootstrap is the best thing to happen to the web in ten
years - thousands of sites now have a simple, clean, usable theme, letting me
focus on what's actually important - the content.

~~~
skyebook
Thank you for pointing this out. I might say "hey it's a standard bootstrap
site, must not be much of a designer" but at least I'll be able to read the
content.

------
randallsquared
> I can’t understand why, if you have an ounce of pride, you’d not want
> everything you release to be the best you could do?

Seriously? You never release anything until you cannot think of a single
improvement? Everything is time-constrained, and some of us would rather spend
no time or attention at all on how things look, if only we could get away with
that. Since we can't, we'd like to put something acceptable with the smallest
time investment possible. The technical term appears to be "half-decent". :)

------
kmfrk
This criticism only makes sense in the bubble of developers - no one else
gives a rat's ass nor notices.

As such, maybe use Bootstrap when designing for a general audience, but
consider going in a different direction, when your audience is developers?
Because they - and only they - seem to get their knickers in a twist when you
use Bootstrap.

------
Jabbles
_Well, you could have made the greatest plugin, web application or library in
the world but the moment you slap Twitter Bootstrap on your site for it, all
initial value is lost and people just see a “cookie cutter website”._

I disagree. Bootstrap is there precisely for the people that do not wish to
spend their effort on re-implementing reasonable web design techniques, yet
wish their website to look "good". Sure, if you're selling yourself as a web-
design expert you'd want to either completely customise it or make your own,
but I did not get the impression you were restricting your comments to those.

Perhaps you're aiming your criticism at a completely different type of person,
but I'd be interested in your critique (or otherwise) of these two, who
clearly did not go the extra mile, and have not even used Bootstrap:

<http://www-cs-staff.stanford.edu/~uno/> (seems to be down atm, as does
Google's cache...
[http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=knuth&d=460252651572473...](http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=knuth&d=4602526515724737&mkt=en-
US&setlang=en-US&w=f1G7FY7kBi8s_Jhhmjsads2I5qKWucNV) )

<http://norvig.com/>

------
wizzard
It must be nice to have a designer in your back pocket willing to drop
everything and design a flashy landing page for every tiny (~40 lines of JS)
pet project you do. This is snobbery at its finest.

This isn't a product you need to sell. It's a tool that people either need or
don't. And if they need it then the GitHub readme will probably suffice.

I know the author has a valid point in there somewhere but this is a terrible
example. Don't make developers feel like they should be ashamed to release
anything until they've paid a designer to slap Kanye West on it.

------
davidw
> people just see a “cookie cutter website”.

For values of "people" equal to "people who closely follow and are
knowledgeable about web site design trends". For a site like LiberWriter,
that's probably about 1% of our customers.

The others see a better site than I would have done on my own.

------
pnathan
Dude, seriously? Sorry, but no. I am a crummy web designer; as a matter of
fact, I have only a very minimal interest in browser programming, period.

I am not interested in spending weeks and weeks learning how to do quality web
design, nor am I interested in spending weeks and weeks learning Javascript
_just_ so I can make something Not Bootstrap that looks about as good.

The goal of my (barely used) websites is to look clean and present the
requisite information. Not going to lie, they look horribly cookie-cutter, and
I could change that. But it _doesn't matter_ (at least today). If it mattered,
I'd change it.

~~~
hackerboos
>I am not interested in spending weeks and weeks learning how to do quality
web design

Personally, I think it takes years.

~~~
pnathan
> Personally, I think it takes years.

Most art does, yeah. So... that only goes to make my point: I'm not skilled in
the art, I am focusing on being skilled in other arts. If I wanted skill in
that art, I'd hire someone who had skill in the art. Bootstrap serves as a
cheap way to "import skill".

------
rmangi
I guess I should feel ripped off by Nissan since I have a cookie cutter SUV. 4
wheels, the trunk has a 3rd row that pops up on demand, I can switch into 4
wheel drive. I did get to pick the color though. I really wish they had
thought about making it unique and maybe putting the steering wheel in the
back seat.

------
mnutt
_If you’ve made a great product and you can’t design, find a designer, there
is a deluge of designers out there looking for a collaboration._

That assumes that you're making a product that designers will be interested
in. Maybe it's just a crud app for doing finance stuff, or any number of
utilitarian apps. And if it's a non-flashy open source project (projects
geared towards designers don't count) then chances are slim that you'll find a
designer willing to work with you on it. Design also has a very different
collaborative model than development. You can't just have tens of random
designers drop by and contribute patches.

I think Bootstrap is a net win for the web because it raises the baseline. If
Bootstrap didn't exist, would all of those developers instead become/hired
designers?

------
jbrooksuk
I get stick from designers and developers (mainly on Twitter) for using
Bootstrap. I'm not a designer, I'm not creative enough to be one, but I can
recognize a good design. I personally use Bootstrap because it enables me to
very quickly come up with an application which is usable and VERY easily
maintainable. From there I'm able to change the colours, layout tends to be
grid based for the things I work on.

Why should I suffer attempting to design something that I know 100% will be
classed shit, when I can use Bootstrap, a decent base look and colour scheme.

"Just ship!" is something I hear all the time. The app works and it's useable
what else matters?

------
stephenr
I'm not a fan of using bootstrap for client facing content.

We have specific front-end designers & css/markup developers for "front of
house", but for "Admin" sections - i.e. the backend that staff/etc will use to
manage an app/site/etc - something like Bootstrap (i'm interested to try Zurb
Foundation/similar for this role too) is perfect, because we aren't trying to
sell a brand to those users, we're trying to deliver functionality, and it's
nice to be able to just put pre-built components together and get functional
dashboards, record lists, CRUD screens, etc.

~~~
antidaily
Yep. You don't want or need all that bloat for a one or two page website. And
if you don't have a skilled designer to help, use a simple grid system like
1140 or 960gs. Bonus: grab a couple nice Google web fonts for your headings.

------
daGrevis
> I’ve never read a more half assed title - “How to Make Your Site Look Half-
> Decent in Half an Hour”. Come on. “Half-decent”. Is this what you want to
> output?

Some people are not designers; they want to code and are in need for a tool
that's like boilerplate, like something, that they can quickly grab so that
they can start to actually code; a bootstrap! A tool that allows to create
temporary, but working and good looking design in minutes.

I'm happy we have such tool; it is very useful!

------
jhowell
Maybe an analogy can be drawn here to popular music. You run into a lot of
people that say they don't listen to it, and some who say it's crammed down
our throats by radio stations giving listeners no choice, but at the end of
the day it's still popular and changes our global culture. As much as I
sometimes don't like to admit it, but, the trend is your friend.

------
jenskanis
A lot of people give Twitter Bootstrap crap because everyone is using the
design and they get sick of seeing the design on every website. A lot of
people miss the whole point of Twitter Bootstrap. It's a design guide, it's
for people to quickly create a website. It doesn't mean it's finished after
that.

I think people shouldn't blame Twitter Bootstrap, but the people that are
using Twitter Bootstrap. They shouldn't stop with styling and design after
Twitter Bootstrap is implemented. They should make the design their own.

Note: I'm one of those people. Sometimes I make a design with Twitter
Bootstrap at it's core, and not change the styling of the input fields
etcetera to make the design not look like Twitter Bootstrap. But that's MY
fault, not the creators of Twitter Bootstrap.

------
bonzoesc
> “Half-decent”. Is this what you want to output? To be known for? I can’t
> understand why, if you have an ounce of pride, you’d not want everything you
> release to be the best you could do?

Sometimes the software is a means to an end. I've made small utility web apps
for clients before, and throwing Bootstrap in improves the experience of the
site without taking more than a few minutes of time (which the client pays
for). Spending time customizing Bootstrap or designing from scratch gets in to
diminishing returns almost immediately, while that first quick step from
1994-style to Bootstrap pays off big.

Pride is one thing, but when it's somebody else's money you have to consider
hubris too.

------
Xylakant
I love to use Bootstrap for backends and purely utilitarian websites such as
monitoring/dashboard sites, admin-interfaces to whatever etc. It allows me to
quickly build a decent looking and usable interface without spending much time
on design decisions. I'd be more careful to use it on sites that try to
promote brands, but there it's still a good layout grid that easily adapts to
styling, so there's little harm in using it. Now if you want to go all crazy
with your design, then Bootstrap is probably not what you want to use.

TL;DR: Use it where appropriate. Misuse is not Bootstraps fault.

------
vph
considering Bootstrap threatens the livelihood of many mediocre designers,
this type of advise is understandable.

------
protonfish
There is a lot of emotion here but nobody seems to have hit on the major pain
point of Bootstrap. It is great for a quick prototype but if you want to do
anything that deviates from the Bootstrap styles it creates an unmaintainable
disaster. What would be minor CSS changes becomes significantly more time-
consuming or impossible. Any small amount of time saved in the initial
development is quickly lost. Using Bootstap is the worst kind of technical
debt your application could be afflicted with.

~~~
businessleads
I'd like to hear more about this argument. Can you develop it further?

~~~
protonfish
I am currently maintaining an application originally developed with Bootstrap
and it has cost us hundreds of hours in extra maintenance so far. I'll give
two examples.

Any grid-based CSS framework breaks content/layout separation - one of the
best features of HTML5/CSS. Instead of naming elements based on document role,
they are labelled by row and column position. After the prototype was
finished, the designer wanted to add a banner at the top of the page. With
normal CSS/HTML this would have been an insignificant change, but because we
were using a grid, all HTML had to be rewritten because row 1 now equaled row
2, etc.

#2, The CSS in Bootstrap changes the global defaults of all HTML attributes. I
have probably written as much CSS to undo bootstrap styles than to add new. I
hope you like writing "line-height: normal" over and over again.

I could conclude saying that bootstrap should only be used to build
prototypes, then throw it all away before developing the production app, but I
don't know why you need fancy formatting in a prototype app. I'd recommend you
build the first version in black-and-while/wireframe style, then hire a
professional designer for the final decoration. If you are not a graphic
designer, focus on writing maintainable, compliant HTML and CSS.

~~~
gavinballard
I'd suggest that your problem might not so much be the tool itself, but the
wrong tool for what you want.

I'd be interested to see what "normal" CSS/HTML you would use to achieve a
fluid, responsive grid in a relatively cross-browser fashion, that maintained
all of this semantic magic. As much as the "content/layout separation" ideal
is lauded, it's pretty difficult to achieve in reality - and just because
something is in HTML, I don't believe that makes it "content".

Addressing your two examples: first, you shouldn't have to rewrite "all" of
your HTML to add a banner to the top of the page. There aren't any "row1",
"row2" etc classes in Bootstrap. If that was a requirement, I think someone's
done something funky with your layout.

Second, part of the appeal of Bootstrap is that it changes the global defaults
of HTML elements. Such resets are commonplace and give you a consistent look
and feel across browsers. If you're looking to "undo" Bootstrap's styles, then
you probably shouldn't be using it in the first place.

~~~
protonfish
Here is an example of a generic HTML doc that changes layout by changing only
CSS: <http://protonfish.com/csssatori/> It's been a few years since I wrote it
and it was just a prototype, but it should be a good example of what you asked
to see.

Separating content and layout takes a little effort to learn but I assure you
it is possible and effective. In my opinion, grid-based layouts are table-
based layouts with a coat of paint.

------
pkorzeniewski
I agree that visual identity is important and it's better to have a custom
design to stand out from the crowd, but one thing you haven't mentioned are
Bootstrap themes - there is already a wide variety of themes to choose from
and most of them change the look&feel of Bootstrap drastically. I think it's a
fair compromise between having to create custom design (which can be time
consuming) and using default Bootstrap theme (which is overused and doesn't
stand out).

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greghinch
This is such a silly argument. When you're building an application, your
intended audience cares about whether or not it does X that it says it will.
Up next in importance is how cheap it is, and in a distant third is how easy
it is to use. That the layout and buttons are easily recognizable from other
sites is a boon, if anything, as it increases the feeling of familiarity.

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forgotAgain
Why is it preferred to release early, release often for product features but
not for design. After all isn't design a feature.

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orangethirty
Why not, instead of publicly complaining, develop your own theme for
bootstrap, and release it as open source?

------
alternize
bootstrap is excellent for developers that aren't designers, and still want to
put together something that looks nice without having to spend money on
elaborate designs. not all startups are blessed with loads of money.

------
citricsquid
it's just called Bootstrap now isn't it?

~~~
homosaur
Yes, this is exactly true. The purpose of is to help less knowledgeable folks
and people that don't have time to create a design to start out with something
usable and clean. There's zero reason you can't go back and make it sexier
later. I actually think it's great that all these docs sites use it because
it's better than the alternative, a huge plain text blob like what's on the
Sass page.

