
Why Google Fiber will never come to Seattle - davidjade
http://crosscut.com/2014/03/04/business/118993/google-fiber-never-come-seattle-broadband-internet/
======
alwaysdoit
I think one of the best things about Google Fiber is actually how it is
shining a light on the levels of bureaucracy in our governments and the ways
they can either be a catalyst or an impediment to progress, innovation, etc.

I don't necessarily want more government or less government--I want better
government, and more transparency on when our government is working or failing
is helpful for getting there.

~~~
muzz
Not sure that can be inferred. Is innovation really catalyzed in Kansas City
more than San Francisco? I would guess not.

~~~
russell_h
Not sure if you've been to SF, but no one has ever accused the local
government of "catalyzing" anything that didn't line their own pockets.

~~~
muzz
Markets and incentives work, and businesses respond to them. If SF thwarted
innovation, we would see less of it there and more of it elsewhere, like
Kansas City.

~~~
YokoZar
There are exogenous factors too. North Dakota will be rich due to oil even
with incredibly corrupt and inefficient local governments.

~~~
muzz
Indeed, as are Texas, Alaska, and Saudi Arabia.

Resources must be extracted where they exist. No such physical constraints
bind the development of search engines, social networks, etc.

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dubfan
> Can you imagine the Seattle City Council keeping a secret like this and then
> acting on it in just one day? Of course not. We’d need to have endless
> community meetings and hearings and public floggings of Google Executives.

Not to mention Kshama Sawant grandstanding about completely irrelevant topics.
I can't understand how she got elected.

~~~
RyJones
Because the majority of the people that voted in her district were tired of
having an insular rep on the council, so they voted for The Other Guy? Seattle
politics is quite strange, coming from the midwest. Politics isn't blood sport
out here.

~~~
dubfan
The election was city-wide (it's going to districts in 2015)

~~~
RyJones
you're correct, of course. The differences seem extremely fine and closely cut
to me, regardless.

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sharkweek
I don't even really want Google Fiber in Seattle - I want us to step up our
game and make high speed internet a public utility.

But, alas, this article still hits on all the main points as to why this will
never happen.

~~~
MartinCron
I am not one of the anti-corporate tin-foil hat Googlephobes, but I think that
having one company with that much vertical integration over everything as
important as the Internet is just a bit dangerous.

~~~
peroo
I doubt Google particularly wants to be an ISP, but something has to be done
to break up the stalemate in the US. Google are one of the few companies with
enough clout to actually get the ball rolling.

~~~
icantthinkofone
I am positive this is the real and only reason Google is doing this. It's the
reason they became a browser vendor and the improvement in browser
capabilities and standards has been glorious.

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WizzleKake
Seattle has Condo Internet and Cascade Link. Both provide gigabit. The Gigabit
Squared thing fell apart.

Condo Internet uses a combination of microwave and fiber to provide
connectivity to the buildings that they service. They only target
apartments/condos, since building the infrastructure to individual residences
is not worth it.

~~~
sirmarksalot
Are there any places with Condo Internet that might be considered affordable?
Something less than $400,000, or $1300 a month rent? I'd be willing to move
for this, but so far I've only seen it available in the $2000/month range.

~~~
manacit
I've been wondering the same thing - I live in a small studio now for an
extremely low price, but have been considering upgrading for a multitude of
reasons, including going from 12mbit Centurylink (the best I can get in my
building) to gigabit Condointernet. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem possible to
rent at a Condointernet served building for under $1800, which is a bit more
than I'd like to pay (especially when I manage to eek by for under $700 with
all utilities included).

~~~
shivaas
you can get a 1BR at Neptune Apts in SLU for anywhere from $1400 - $1600

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WalterBright
Near my house the power runs on poles through a wooded area. Every year, when
the wind blows, trees fall on it and take out the power. Sometimes twice a
year. They're always out there replacing broken poles and pulling new wire.

I call the power company up now and then and suggest they bury the wire in the
section. Or sometimes I'll suggest to the linemen as I pass them putting in a
new pole. They get rid of me with some excuse they made up on the spot, and
nothing changes.

~~~
eigenvector
Power systems engineer here. Mixing above and below grade conductor on the
same distribution line is not a common construction practice, at least not
downstream of the first customer. There are a few reasons.

Most faults seen on overhead distribution systems are momentary (i.e. they
clear without human invention, e.g. line-to-line squirrel contact). For this
reason, automatic reclosers are typically used at the station breaker.
Conversely, automatic reclose is not used on underground distribution systems
because momentary contacts are rare and attempting to reclose on a permanent
fault just causes further damage to your breaker and other distribution
assets.

Additionally, the types of conductor used for underground and overhead
applications are completely different. They'd have to be spliced going into
and out of the duct (you don't just put wires in the ground, you have to pour
a concrete-encased duct) which adds an additional point of failure.

I understand that have two outages per year is annoying, but the thing about
power distribution is that making a perfect system is much, much more
expensive than making one that works most of the time for most of the people.
And that money comes from your electricity rates.

~~~
WalterBright
The "last mile" to my neighborhood is actually underground. It's the feed to
the community that's on poles, and the whole community goes down when a tree
falls. I know about momentary ones where the power comes back on in a few
seconds, those happen a lot, I am counting the ones where they have to send a
truck out. The power is then out for from 6 hrs to 2 weeks.

As for rates, the paper ran an article a few years back on how much of our
rates were based on the constant repairing of the poles - it was a big chunk,
though I don't recall the details. Having a 3 man crew out there for several
hours with their heavy equipment costs a bundle.

The underground section needed a repair exactly once, and the power didn't
even go out.

About 2/3 of the homeowners in the community have given up and bought
generators. Generators run from $500 to $5000 - I'd rather pay higher rates
and not need one of those things.

~~~
MichaelApproved
Wouldn't it be cheaper to cut a wider path fr the power lines through the
trees? Why don't they keep trees growth further away?

~~~
WalterBright
It's on some steep slopes, and cutting the trees down will destabilize the
slope, besides making people mad.

They do trim the branches now and then.

I just don't see why it's so impractical to break out the Ditch Witch and cut
a trench, and lay the durned cable in it. It was done for my neighborhood, and
the developer wasn't known for spending excess money :-)

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wonnage
Sounds like the analogies of Seattle being the San Francisco of the northwest
(or vice versa) are correct... we have the same issues with bureaucracy,
progress-fearing residents, etc. I actually thought I was reading the Pando
article from a week ago ([http://pando.com/2014/02/25/having-being-burned-
once-before-...](http://pando.com/2014/02/25/having-being-burned-once-before-
google-wont-bring-fiber-to-san-francisco/)), and someone just did a s/san
francisco/seattle.

~~~
muzz
Which city do you think Seattle or San Francisco should be more like? And why
do you think businesses based in those two cities disagree?

------
bonobo_34
Time Warner increased speeds in Austin after Google Fiber was announced? I
guess that doesn't apply to either my home or work connection, they're both
still as shitty as ever.

~~~
jmsduran
I live in Austin and have Time Warner Cable, my bill is roughly $173.00 per
month. This is includes Internet (30 Mbps down/5Mbps up) and basic cable (no
premium channels).

For people living in Austin, I doubt we will see increased speeds or better
price offerings from AT&T/TWC until the day Google Fiber is available to
significant portions of the city's population.

~~~
cwal37
Holy shit, are those prices normal for Austin? Everywhere I've lived
(Illinois, Indiana, Tennessee) I've paid roughly $40-50/month for just
internet from Comcast that's also a bit faster than yours.

I've always been on promo deals, but even the "regular" price is $70-80.

~~~
js2
TWC in Cary, NC for 5/30 service (nothing else, just Internet) is
$72.38/month. And they just sent me a letter saying rates are going up.

My only theoretical alternative is AT&T but last I checked they don't even
know my address exists (my house was built in 2004).

Meanwhile Wilson, NC built out its own network after getting fed up with
broadband providers not willing to service her citizens. Of course that won't
be happening elsewhere in NC since TWC successfully lobbied the state
legislature to prevent other towns from doing so. Anyway, here's the pricing
in Wilson
[http://www.greenlightnc.com/about/internet/](http://www.greenlightnc.com/about/internet/)

    
    
        20Mbps Internet-only	$39.95
        40Mbps Internet-only	$59.95
        60Mbps Internet-only	$79.95
        100Mbps Internet-only	$104.95
        1Gbps Internet-only 	$154.95
    

All symmetrical. Much better than anything from TWC or Comcast or AT&T.

~~~
cwal37
My hometown in the Chicago suburbs attempted to build out their own fiber
network to provide service to residents sometime in the mid 2000s. I was in
high school at the time, but I still get so damn angry thinking back on
Comcast's explicit lobbying and campaigning against it. They sold the older
population in town that it was this huge gamble.

I can still picture the signs Comcast put in people's yards. They were bright
red, had dice on them, and said "Don't gamble with our tax dollars." There
were letters to the editor in the local papers on both sides, but it was clear
from almost the beginning that too few people understood the value of
municipal fiber, and the vote didn't pass.

Today, my parents have barely functioning UVerse.

Also, your internet option is super gross, that's really too bad. I recently
moved for work to a more rural area, but thankfully the same package was
available.

------
news_to_me
> So is all hope lost for Google Fiber in Seattle? What would it take to
> entice Google here?

> We’ve considered spending the $700 million or more it would cost to build
> our own fiber network, which might provide a billion dollars in benefits
> each year.

Why do we want Google Fiber in cities so badly? What's the benefit over
building your own network, or partnering with someone like Gigabit Squared?

~~~
codystebbins
It is not just about Google Fiber despite the article title. This article
presents regulations that will prevent any real ISP competition, including
Gigabit Squared, and is really quite depressing as a Seattle resident. Google
Fiber just happens to be a significant national competitor that people know
about.

------
elwell
Why Google Fiber will never come to Los Angeles [0]

[0] - [http://www.theverge.com/2013/11/5/5070520/los-angeles-
planni...](http://www.theverge.com/2013/11/5/5070520/los-angeles-planning-to-
bring-free-fiber-based-internet-to-its-residents)

~~~
mullingitover
What's stopping google from submitting a proposal? This article is about LA
putting out an RFP.

~~~
wmf
Didn't LA's RFP say that they would give the kinds of concessions that Google
Fiber demands?

------
penrod
The article is a little unfair to Seattle. Note the alacrity with which the
city clamped down on Lyft and Uber - clearly you can get _some_ things done
here if you know the right people.

------
csense
I've asked this question before [1].

Why does Google's proposed fiber map [2] include not a single city in the
northeast or the Rust Belt?

Chicago, Philadelphia, and Pittsburgh are all major cities that are at least
"on the map" as far as tech is concerned. I know for a fact that the local
authorities in Detroit, Cincinnati and Cleveland would bend over backwards for
any project that has even the slightest whiff of economic development.

I can understand NYC being a special case that they don't want to deal with,
but there are plenty of other cities in the region.

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7265600](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7265600)

[2] [https://fiber.google.com/newcities/](https://fiber.google.com/newcities/)

~~~
vxNsr
Chicago is the king of Politics and needless regulation. Cronyism isn't
something talked about in back allay's, it's a legitimate way to get a job/win
a contract. No one looks twice at that. All comcast has to do to keep Google
out is tell Rahm that he shouldn't let it happen and BOOM - no google in
Chicago.

It becomes especially obvious in the winter when you see only certain parts of
the city getting cleared immediately after a snow storm, those parts are where
the alderman of that neighborhood lives, or a friend of the mayor lives on
that block (and they'll do that, just plow a single block). Th rest of the
city is plowed as well but it takes a couple days as the plows first have to
do their crazy routes to make sure that major donors are all taken care of. I
didn't really notice this until our alderman changed (I guess I used to live
fairly close to the old one). The new alderman lives nearly a mile away from
me and thus my block is one of the last in the city to get cleared where as in
previous years, it was done directly following major streets. (the streets
nearest to her are all plowed and clear immediately, and they're of the same
significance that my street is, so it's not like balance was suddenly
restored, they just moved the favor elsewhere).

It's really the only reason I'm a republican: this city is all blue and
completely corrupt, I don't at all understand how people look at Obama, or
Durbin, or Pelosi and don't see someone who has no morals and is in it for I
don't even know what (as Obama seems to not even care about the power his
position offers).

------
WalterBright
Google has a large office in Kirkland (near Seattle). I hope that means
Kirkland is on the short list!

~~~
vl
Well, Google has office in Seattle as well (Fremont).

------
zw123456
The truth is that most places in the US have multiple layers of local and
state levels of bureaucracy that make it extremely difficult for anyone who
has not paid the "franchise fees" to string fiber. Even wireless is difficult
since you need fiber to cell sites and all the same hurdles make it
ridiculously expensive to get fiber to the towers. This is a problem that it
almost impossible to solve on a large level since it is all controlled by
municipalities and state puc's. This is why most people will never see GF or
similar cheap Broadband in this country for a long time if ever.

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adamboulanger
Didn't pioneer square just roll out broadband like a year or two ago on the
city's dime because at $60k rollout cost none of the cable companies wanted to
touch it? And that's supposed to a be a small business and startup friendly
enclave!

------
piokuc
Would it be easier for Microsoft?

