
Denmark’s Tougher Citizenship Test Stumps Even Its Natives - danso
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/08/world/europe/denmark-citizenship-test.html?module=WatchingPortal&region=c-column-middle-span-region&pgType=Homepage&action=click&mediaId=thumb_square&state=standard&contentPlacement=12&version=internal&contentCollection=www.nytimes.com&contentId=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2016%2F07%2F08%2Fworld%2Feurope%2Fdenmark-citizenship-test.html
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jacquesm
Well, then the natives should lose their citizenship.

We have the same bs here in nl, and I'm 100% certain that I would not pass, if
only because I don't know enough about our 'Royal' family.

~~~
internaut
It is better understood as a ritual, specifically a hazing by way of
bureaucracy.

~~~
dalke
I understand it better as a way to appease nativists.

~~~
internaut
And I that the conflict with nationalism and globalism is a red herring.

The Net has enabled bi-directional communication for many to many for the
first time in history. These feedback loops will produce effects familiar and
unfamiliar. Of course we pick up first what we see, our bias is toward what we
already understand. In truth it is weirder than than we may think and old-new
forms of conflict are likely to emerge.

For example; ISIS is based on an older interpretation of Islam, but could it
exist without the Net? I'd say not.

The implication of that could be that old conflicts thought to be irrelevant
will rear their heads once more. You see something beginning here with
feminism being abandoned, that was not in the script of the progressives. On
the other side you have 'international meetings of anti-internationalists' and
other such interesting paradoxes. There is something fractal-like going on
with the evolution of ideas because of the Net.

~~~
dalke
I didn't say nationalism, I said "nativism". Nor did I say "globalism".
Because yes, that would certainly be a red herring. We've been a global
economy since at least the 1830s, when the cotton mills of an English county
was able to produce most of the world's cotton fabric, and collapse the
economy of several Asian cities.

Since no one mentioned them here, I find it odd that you felt necessary to
raise that point.

Every single communications form has enabled similar feedback loops for
centuries; the printing press, cheaper paper to enable the penny-dreadfuls,
Linotype to enable yellow journalism, radio, telegram, TV, telephone, record
players, transoceanic cables, microwave and satellite repeaters, and now, yes,
internet.

You wrote "could [ISIS] exist without the Net? I'd say not."

I see no meaning in that statement. If you define ISIS to include how it
transmits messages over the internet, then you are surely right, but trivially
so. Just like a 10 year old child in the US could not exist as-is without the
internet.

Regional uprisings, including those which are part of a religious movement,
are not new, and don't require the internet to happen. The 1979 Iranian
Revolution is one relatively recent example.

The rest of what you wrote is a mixture of the obvious and the unsupported. Of
course "old conflicts thought to be irrelevant will rear their heads once
more"; history is full of examples where the powerful forget or trivialize a
problem which was never fully forgotten among the oppressed, who eventually
fight.

As a feminist, I am flummoxed by the statement "with feminism being
abandoned". It seems to be ever more mainstream, with, e.g., recent
declarations by Barack Obama and Patrick Stewart of being feminists. The early
feminist fought for the right to vote. Are you seriously saying that there's a
general retreat from woman suffrage? If not, which of the many aspects of
feminism do you refer?

The seeming paradox of organized anarchism is one that has long been pointed
out and discussed by anarchists.
[https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/common-cause-
ottawa-...](https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/common-cause-ottawa-
organized-anarchism-in-the-anti-capitalist-struggle) says:

> The debate between organizationalists and anti organizationalists is not at
> all new. It has been ongoing in the anarchist community for at least a
> century.

Finally there has _always_ been "something fractal-like going on with the
evolution of ideas", including, yet, long before the internet. There's a
reason for the joke about the "People's Front of Judea" vs. "Judean People's
Front", mocking perhaps Marxism factions, but otherwise little different than
the joke with the punchline:

> [Are you] Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879,
> or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He
> said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I
> said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.

Even the Germanic peoples, without a written language, still had "fractal-
like" evolution of ideas, as seen in their laws, language, and
religion/mythology. What you describe is a part of how human ideas develop,
and not something special about the internet.

~~~
internaut
> Since no one mentioned them here, I find it odd that you felt necessary to
> raise that point.

It is because the narrative (aptly called an 'iconography' if you're familiar
with Neal Stephenson) of nationalism vs globalism is becoming increasingly
emphasized in political discussions, with Brexit being the latest installment.

I accept that nativism isn't necessarily a synonym for nationalism but in my
European context it really is. America (not assuming you're an American, this
is an example) has a different context because of repeated migration waves but
this is exceptional. My country for example was 98% native born until a decade
or two ago. Contrary to popular perception in some circles, migration does not
have much to do with the capacity of modern transport, especially for islands.
It is politics.

> Every single communications form has enabled similar feedback loops for
> centuries; the printing press, cheaper paper to enable the penny-dreadfuls,
> Linotype to enable yellow journalism, radio, telegram, TV, telephone, record
> players, transoceanic cables, microwave and satellite repeaters, and now,
> yes, internet.

Here we disagree most severely.

There are two/three criteria depending on context.

The direction of feedback (uni or bi). The strength of feedback (weak or
strong). The feedback relationship (one to one, one to many, many to one, many
to many).

Almost all the things you mentioned there are uni-directional communications.
If they are bi-directional, it is the weak forms or selective.

The Net is uniquely different to forms of communication that have preceded it.
Its feedback loop has genuinely sped up human society in politics, culture,
you name it.

> I see no meaning in that statement.

Come on. Their funding comes from people who noticed their videos online.
Their gear, their money, even the fighters. The reality is turning off their
Net access would absolutely cripple them. Yes, insurrections occur without Net
access, but global recruitment drives and fund raising from huge numbers of
people does not occur without the Net. Writing letters and making a phone call
wouldn't exactly cut it.

> As a feminist, I am flummoxed by the statement "with feminism being
> abandoned". It seems to be ever more mainstream, with, e.g., recent
> declarations by Barack Obama and Patrick Stewart of being feminists. The
> early feminist fought for the right to vote. Are you seriously saying that
> there's a general retreat from woman suffrage? If not, which of the many
> aspects of feminism do you refer?

First, this is not a personal attack. I say so because this is an easily
inflammatory topic.

Second, I believe that most social change is cyclical and not linear. Just as
dresses get longer or shorter, values change over enough time in a mean
reverting manner.

This is a description of what I see. This may be hard to believe depending on
where you are and who you mix with, but social change in trajectory tends to
be first noticed at the peripheral rather Hollywood or the Whitehouse.

Increasingly women and men are dropping the belief in equality between the
sexes. Some elements, such as the right of women to work and vote are likely
to be kept if not exercised, but huge swathes of feminist ideals are being
dropped. I am not a women myself, but I have heard the ones around me talk
about it, I doubt there's a woman in the neighborhood who would self describe
as feminist. Some of them despise feminists and most of them think of feminism
as an old fashioned idea with not much relevance to the world. I suppose they
are technically counter-revolutionaries ;-)

This will be a rather esoteric example of the tide going out because they're
altogether unusual (and fun!), but this couple do express similar sentiments
to the ones I've heard more generally.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqvc1Yx3U7s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqvc1Yx3U7s)

> Finally there has always been "something fractal-like going on with the
> evolution of ideas", including, yet, long before the internet.

I'm sorry but you have perhaps misunderstood me, I didn't disagree with your
observations. Not fracture. Fractal. I'm afraid it is an idea which is hard to
articulate without sounding slightly mad and certainly sound contradictory so
I shall nurture the slippery fellow to maturity for a different occasion.

