
Apple Co-Founder Says Goldman’s Apple Card Algo Discriminates - sndean
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-11-10/apple-co-founder-says-goldman-s-apple-card-algo-discriminates
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braindeath
So a couple guys in the top .1% net worth (outliers by any measure) don’t
think their spouses were treated fairly by a credit check. It must be systemic
discrimination. Also NYS is not a community property state, as DHH claimed, so
he is full of shit on that one.

~~~
Twirrim
Does it not concern you in the slightest, that when they've ended up speaking
to higher and higher up people in the various organisations that they
literally don't know why the algorithm decided the way it did? No one they've
spoken to can figure it out, which means they themselves can't also rule out
discrimination happening.

A lot of the technology we produce is fundamentally biased by our own
perceptions, and in ML case most especially by the input data. The danger is a
self-perpetuation of already established systemic bias. Given access to good
credit is key towards economic mobility that can have massive ongoing
implications. The fact that they're saying "It's just what the algorithm
produces" should be triggering huge alarm bells, regardless of the veracity of
any of his other claims.

~~~
MaupitiBlue
> Does it not concern you in the slightest, that when they've ended up
> speaking to higher and higher up people in the various organisations that
> they literally don't know why the algorithm decided the way it did?

No, I wouldn’t be concerned in the slightest - I’d just get a card from
somewhere else.

~~~
MyHypatia
Artificially limiting people's access to capital is a real problem. Sure,
perhaps having to go to a separate company once is a minor inconvenience. If
no one questions the "algorithm" and it gains wider spread adoption, people's
access to capital can very quickly deteriorate. This has real consequences to
people's ability to start a business, buy a house, pay a hospital bill... And
yet you are not "concerned in the slightest". Do you have a blind trust in the
algorithm, or just complete apathy on how this could affect people? What are
the things that concern you then?

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Bud
Another key point being missed by the over-entitled Ruby on Rails dev,
Wozniak, and most commenters here is that just because you are filing jointly
doesn't mean you get to double-dip on credit limit entitlement.

You want credit for the sum of the couple's income when filing jointly and
applying for credit jointly? Great! But that doesn't mean that you get to have
that full credit TWICE, separately, when each partner applies. You get it
once.

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awinder
That would be the “Ruby on rails creator”, lol.

There’s also no way to apply jointly for the card. You can input your joint
income, sure, but they’re single-user accounts. You can’t, during signup,
specify a lower balance in order to “free up” that credit for another family
user. The thing is literally not built for married couples, who command an
outsized share of spending & wealth. Stop trying to outsmart the gimped
product and skip it, there’s so many better options out there.

~~~
michaelmrose
You can absolutely add additional users to an account including but not
limited to family members. You are trying to solve a non problem.

~~~
awinder
That’s not correct, it’s on the support page under “If a family member wants
to use Apple Card”:

[https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT209228](https://support.apple.com/en-
us/HT209228)

I was baffled myself.

~~~
michaelmrose
You are absolutely correct how odd.

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xyst
Seeing journalists source from Twitter just shows the sad state of the
journalism industry. 1 tweet from a single man from an uninformed perspective
triggered this cascade of misinformation.

What happened to "research" and integrity? All for that click bait and ad-
money I suppose.

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johnpowell
Isn't it Goldman loaning the line of credit? I'm not sure why Apple is getting
the flack here. Apple is essentially a dumb middleman that shouldn't care
about your credit rating since they have nothing to lose if you default on the
loan.

I do get Apple getting shit for partnering with a horrible company. But does
anyone know if Apple has any influence over the credit limit? I am having a
hard time coming up with a reason why they would.

~~~
wmf
The whole point of Apple is that they take full responsibility for the
goodness of their products and they don't pass the buck. So when they
outsource something and it goes wrong Apple has to own that failure and fix
it.

~~~
johnpowell
And yeah, that is why I said Apple gets some blame for choosing a horrible
bank to partner with.

But my point is that Apple doesn't have some fancy algorithm deciding females
are 1/10th a person. Goldman does..

~~~
eknkc
But its Apple Card?

Why do I care about the business relation of Apple and GS or whatever? If my
MacBook CPU fails, its on Apple, not Intel. I don't care where they got it.

I don't have an Apple card though, not available here.

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tptacek
I'm always a little confused by stories about Apple featuring Wozniak. Does he
have any special insight into the company?

~~~
wmf
I guess there's a corollary to the Gell-Mann amnesia effect here. If the media
thinks Woz is an expert on Apple, what does that mean about all their other
"experts"?

~~~
tptacek
That some of them are in fact experts and others aren't.

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qaq
Why everything has to immediately be about discrimination? If it is always
giving lower number to a member of the couple that earns less regardless of
sex where is discrimination exactly?

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neximo64
So people who are famous? get a higher credit limit probably?

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zelly
You know it's really easy to test a black box for bias right. This isn't
something you have to speculate about like a human's bias.

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Bud
Great. So where's the test? Because it sure hasn't occurred in the case
mentioned by this article.

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wilg
Let's demand one!

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lawnchair_larry
Except he didn’t say that, and many others commenting had opposite results.
Nobody knows the reason for the difference.

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mimikatz
I wonder if crying sexism is the new best way to get your issue properly
looked at. Note: I am not saying this is or isn't based in sexism, just that
DHH has no idea or very limited information as to what is going on and is
making some very harsh assumptions.

~~~
function_seven
> just that DHH has no idea or very limited information as to what is going on

That's the main problem he has. Major decisions based on secret information.
(Or secret algorithms).

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MaupitiBlue
Why do they think filing a joint return is relevant?

~~~
metafunk
Likely just pointing out that, in even more ways than should matter in this
case, they and their partners are financially identical.

~~~
MaupitiBlue
And if lenders based their credit decisions on the spouse’s creditworthiness,
someone else would whine about that.

The sense of entitlement that’s taken hold of the world is dismaying. If you
don’t like the terms Apple / GS are offering, then go somewhere else.

~~~
yardie
> If you don’t like the terms Apple / GS are offering, then go somewhere else.

If they are basing those terms based on one of the protected classes (race,
gender, age) that is illegal and should be investigated.

> The sense of entitlement that’s taken hold of the world is dismaying.

I know, right. Damn these brown people, LGBTQ, women for demanding a seat at
the table. Cis-het white people must be feeling particularly oppressed with
all of these racist|sexist|genderist calls for reform

~~~
MaupitiBlue
“Damn these brown people, LGBTQ, women for demanding a seat at the table.”

Maybe if they earned it instead of demanding it they’d be taken seriously?

~~~
yardie
How exactly do you earn equality?

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foogazi
>Apple co-founder says

Codeword for Woz

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vkizl
Wozniak has got an opinion on everything and the media says we have to care
because he co-founded Apple in 1976.

Really, what makes him an expert on this? Why should we pay attention to what
he has to say about it?

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threeseed
Because it gets clicks.

His opinion is as meaningless and irrelevant here as a random person off the
street.

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sarah180
I think that's extremely hyperbolic.

If your livelihood depended on an insight into the way Apple's financial
systems operate, and your options were Steve Wozniak or the first person you
saw on the street in a major city, you'd say "flip a coin?" I didn't think so.

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threeseed
1) Apple Card is backed by Goldman Sachs. So if I was in a major city I would
much rather flip a coin and hope to get a GS employee.

2) I used to work at Apple and I know people that were fired for leaking. So I
would be very surprised if anyone would be stupid enough to leak the inner
workings of the company to Steve. Especially from a financial products team.

