
Final – A credit card built for the 21st century - cbw
https://getfinal.com/
======
mapgrep
Here's a list of the most common ways credit cards leak, from security
journalist Brian Krebs:

-Hacked main street merchant, restaurant...

-Processor breach...

-Hacked point-of-sale service company/vendor...

-Hacked E-commerce Merchant...

-ATM or Gas Pump Skimmer...

-Crooked employee...(Most frequently committed by restaurant workers)...

-Lost/Stolen card...

-Malware on Consumer PC...

-Physical record theft [from] Merchant, government agency...

[https://krebsonsecurity.com/2015/01/how-was-your-credit-
card...](https://krebsonsecurity.com/2015/01/how-was-your-credit-card-stolen/)

So of Krebs' top nine sources of leaks, Final addresses at most three. No
thanks!

UPDATE: Re the downvotes, Maybe someone should tag posts about YC companies so
we know when it's unacceptable to engage our critical faculties.

~~~
kylebenzle
Why are we even taking time to critique startups like this when 9 out of 9 of
these problems are already solved with cryptocurrencies that have been around
for 10 years? I struggle to see why this is even a product at all?

~~~
eterpstra
Unfortunately mainstream consumers still love credit cards, and think
"Bitcoin" is some sort of criminal activity.

~~~
smsm42
Unfortunately, if you look at real usage patterns, they are not completely
wrong either. At least from the POV of a mainstream non-technical person not
visiting obscure meetups but reading newspapers.

------
joshstrange
I had early access to this but passed on it after I read more about it,
specifically:

Annual Fee: $0 intro for the first year, $49 per year thereafter

And

Earn 1% cash back on all purchases

So you have to spend $5000 on this card just to break even and then I'm still
only getting 1% back. As someone who has never really had an issues with my CC
which averages me 2% back and is free and I can't start to justify this. I use
Simple Bank and love the UI (mobile/web) and this UI looks nice but with
Simple I didn't have to leave money on the table to switch over to it (or at
least not how I use it).

~~~
JoshTriplett
Yeah, I'm not willing to use a card with an annual fee. I already have a card
with none, and 1% cash back. I'd consider using a card with less cash back if
I liked the services enough, but I'd never pay a fee for a card.

That said, I _do_ really want disposable card numbers; I've missed that
service ever since Amex discontinued their version.

~~~
bjapel
This is helpful feedback, thank you.

------
ars
This is called a
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_payment_number](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_payment_number)
and Bank of America (among others) has had it since the 20th century (16 years
ago[1]).

[1][http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/mbna-introduces-
the-...](http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/mbna-introduces-the-mbna-
shopsafesm-service-to-protect-online-shoppers-against-credit-card-
theft-74993102.html)

~~~
fragmede
Great. Where can I sign up for this service, outside of Final? Bank of America
is not an option (see: 2008).

~~~
cheiVia0
Is Citi an option? :)

------
ekanes
Been using this card for a few months.

Re folks saying it's been done before, it makes me think of the William Gibson
quote "The future's already here, it's just not evenly distributed."

Even if it has been done before (I have no idea) -- if something makes a new
tech _available_ to many more people, it's effectively new to them.

In terms of using the card, my wife and I have found it useful. It feels
empowering to give the card to a service/person and know you remain in
control. Yes, all cards let you do chargebacks, or recover from fraudulent
charges, but I don't want to have to fight to recover my money.

I love the feeling of using a number and knowing no other charges can come -
that number can never be used again.

This card is empowering.

~~~
zamalek
> Even if it has been done before (I have no idea)

I had this idea myself, I Googled it and found nothing. Visa has 3D Secure
(which is really just a text-delivered OTP), but implementing the standard is
completely optional. I've only come across it on a handful of websites.

Pity it's US only for now.

~~~
Gmo
I think the more relevant functionality is called in France "e-carte bleue" :
[https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paiement_sur_Internet#La_e-
car...](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paiement_sur_Internet#La_e-
carte_bancaire) (Sorry, only in French).

You generate a fake card number, this number is linked with an expiration date
AND a maximal amount that can be charged.

~~~
jle17
The quality of the service varies between banks though, I remember my previous
bank who forced me to go over a sketchy-looking website and use a Flash applet
to generate the card...

AFAIK it's not possible to create a card with a monthly chargeable maximum
amount, only to set the total amount for the card's lifetime, which limits the
interest of the use for recurring payments.

------
paulsutter
> Tired of your monthly yoga pants subscription? Or a two-week "free" trial
> that lasted four months? Just deactivate that card number. It's that easy.

This is a pretty useful feature. But does it run afoul of some mysterious
rules that allow recurring charges to continue[1], when you have a tradtional
card cancelled and reissued under a new number?

From[2]:

> Thanks to some under-the-radar rules that work out in favor of vendors who
> charge recurring card fees, most credit card carriers allow a "recurring
> indicator" to be included in vendor/customer credit card transactions. In
> layman's terms, that means there are data bytes in your credit card payment
> DNA that allows companies to bypass credit card expiration dates and keep
> charging you anyway, even if your card has expired.

> Worse, there are loopholes in credit card regulations that enable vendors to
> get new credit card information if the old card was closed due to fraud, or
> even if you switched cards for a better rate. In either case, the recurring
> charges continue.

[1] [https://uncrunched.com/2012/08/01/recurring-credit-card-
char...](https://uncrunched.com/2012/08/01/recurring-credit-card-charges-
horror/)

[2] [http://www.nasdaq.com/personal-finance/pull-the-plug-on-
recu...](http://www.nasdaq.com/personal-finance/pull-the-plug-on-recurring-
charges.aspx)

~~~
hanley
Stripe handles this nicely. [1] As a merchant, it's handy. As a consumer, it's
a bit spooky.

[https://stripe.com/blog/smarter-saved-cards](https://stripe.com/blog/smarter-
saved-cards)

~~~
pc86
I'm a merchant of semi-high priced recurring memberships ($100-250/mo) and I
wish our payment processor had this feature. We routinely have upwards of $4k
a month in failed charges for some combination of {expired, cancelled, deleted
from the system without the underlying membership being cancelled}.

~~~
fragmede
Curious, what prevents you from switching to stripe? No idea how $4k/month
fits in with your revenue or the opportunity costs in doing so, but $4k/month
seems enough to justify spending a week to redo the integration.

~~~
pc86
Most importantly Stripe is quite a bit more expensive the payment processors
I've used in the past. Less importantly but still a show stopper is that all
the full-featured pieces of management software for this industry (fitness
facilities) are tied to a very small number of payment processors. Some of the
large ones have one processor and you literally cannot accept credit cards
without using them. They're still cheaper than Stripe so it's not that big of
a deal but the UX leaves quite a bit to be desired.

------
sabman83
I don't think I need temporary numbers to protect me from fraud. The fraud
protection with my current credit card has been working fine so far. Another
reason not use this card is that I don't want to miss out on reward points. I
don't see how this business model is going to survive.

~~~
jcoffland
Rewards are hoops CC card companies make you jump though to get some of your
money back. Money you pay when vendors increase their prices to cover CC card
fees.

~~~
jrockway
You pay the fees if you use this card, or indeed buy anything at all. So
you'll want to get those rewards.

~~~
madeofpalk
And you pay a fee to cover those rewards.

~~~
bpicolo
That's not really at the behest of the credit card company, as I understand
it.

------
tigroferoce
It's not the card built for 21st century, it's just a slightly better 20th
century card. 21st is not anymore US-centric, therefore anything in 21st
century should be world-wide; focusing on US only shows how you are going to
lose bit opportunities.

~~~
67726e
Setting up a financial operation globally simply isn't a matter of spinning up
some AWS instances and hiring a firm to do internationalization of your site.

~~~
tigroferoce
Of course it is difficult. But claiming that you created the "credit card for
the new century" is a pretty bold statement. Especially if you aren't ;-)

On the other hand I understand that saying "We slightly improved a 40-years
old tool that is being replaced by totally different ideas and we are
releasing it in what 10 years ago was the main market in the world, but today
is only a part of the bigger picture and will be even less in the near future"
sounds slightly less sexy.

------
xori
[https://developer.visa.com/products/vts](https://developer.visa.com/products/vts)
If anyone feels like making their own version.

------
bcherny
Can anyone chime in on how this compares to
[https://privacy.com](https://privacy.com) or
[https://www.entropay.com](https://www.entropay.com)?

~~~
o_____________o
I have a hard time with Privacy on more than a few vendors. This is usually
because their system doesn't account for the authorization and charge being
from two different company names. In NYC, for example, all cabs and related
cab apps will charge like this.

~~~
boling11
Hey there! I work at Privacy.com.

This is something we've been working to improve over the past few months. If
this happens again can you shoot us a note support@privacy.com with the
details?

------
laurentdc
Hm, I've been doing this for years. My bank lets me create virtual MasterCard
credit cards that can either be one-time use only (they "auto destroy" after
one payment is authorized) or can be set to expire after a certain month or a
certain amount of money is spent.

They're linked to a physical card and/or bank account that you never disclose,
and you get an SMS notification for every transaction.

Not sure what's the novelty here?

------
calvinbhai
Not sure if I missed it, but I dont understand this:

The founders of the company couldn't use their cards because of Target breach.
And they started Final based on that experience.

How is Final solving this problem for breaches involving in store transactions
like that of Target? imo, the Final card would still need to be deactivated
right?

If I understood their value proposition correctly, Final has the best UX for
virtual card numbers unlike those provided by BoA and Citi, where the UX to
generate and use them sucks, and to be used for online transactions.

w.r.t in store transactions, it continues to be the same. (correct me if I'm
wrong)

~~~
bjapel
For us, it was about control. We felt powerless when our issuing banks
canceled our cards w/o warning. You're correct in that Final uses EMV to solve
for in-store fraud just like rest of industry (which reduces by 80-90%). But
if I lose my card or on slight chance someone manages to skim at POS that is
magstripe, I can just turn that card off, and all other recurring payments and
merchants are unaffected, just need a new plastic.

~~~
cheiVia0
Basically like Discover's Freeze Account or Citi Quick Lock... :/

------
xamlhacker
Virtual card numbers are not a new thing. For example, some Citibank cards
allow you to create separate virtual numbers for different merchants. However,
it looks like Final makes the process much easier.

~~~
Animats
Even Bank of America offers that, although it's really tough to find and
requires Flash. They call it ShopSafe.[1]

[1] [https://www.bankofamerica.com/privacy/accounts-
cards/shopsaf...](https://www.bankofamerica.com/privacy/accounts-
cards/shopsafe.go)

~~~
ars
That flash interface has not changed in 16 years, except that a few years ago
they added a requirement to enter the three digit code from the back if card.

So that's pretty impressive that they can still support and maintain code that
old.

~~~
jjnoakes
16 years is impressive? What would you call a 33 year old multi million line
codebase still being babysat in production today?

~~~
ars
It's not the age. It's that they didn't touch it for a decade, and then still
had the ability to make changes to it when they needed to.

~~~
jjnoakes
How do you know they didn't touch it for a decade?

~~~
ars
Because I've used it that long, and it did not change in the slightest except
for the change I mentioned.

~~~
jjnoakes
Just because the user interface or functionality didn't change doesn't imply
the internals didn't change to keep it maintained and running though, right?

------
yalogin
Why should end users care about hacked cards? Sure its painful to swap out all
your cards but its only inconvenience, no real money lost. Its the issuers
that lose money.

So if you are selling a card to the end users, individual cards for each
transaction (which others do already) cannot be your first point. Its not
convenient at all to go through an app to generate a new number every time.
Sure there will be people using it but not sure it sells with the bulk of the
users.

~~~
wccrawford
Inconvenience and stress. I had my card "stolen" twice, and the bank was kind
of a pain to deal with. Mostly their incompetence, rather than a refusal to
help, but that didn't help. I don't bank with them any more, but it actually
wasn't even over those incidents.

So while I wasn't out any money, I was definitely out my time and had to deal
with excess stress, so I _do_ care if it gets stolen in the future.

------
rbcgerard
Am I missing something - I mean it's annoying having to update recurring
payments with a new card# but it doesn't happen that often and the issuer has
the liability, so what do I care?

~~~
tempestn
This literally just happened to me today, and it was a bit of a pain, but it
only took half an hour with last month's statement and a web browser to update
all my regular payments.

The one thing I would recommend is having a secondary card with a different
provider kept as a backup, just to deal with the couple of days between
cancellation and receiving the new card. Even better is if it's a different
card type (Visa if you have a MC or whatever) for that once in a blue moon
situation when a merchant doesn't accept that card. Finally, if you do this,
put some regular, low value monthly payment on the backup card so it doesn't
get cancelled for inactivity. Netflix is good.

------
mfrommil
If there's an annual fee, most customers expect either excellent rewards or
top-tier customer service (e.g. amex). Hard to justify $50/yr for neither of
these.

~~~
andrewdietrich
M, one of the founders of Final here.

We agree there's nothing better than exceptional customer service and
experience. We've built Final from the ground up as a new credit card issuer
so that we can continue to enhance the technology, service, and experience. We
need to make money somehow, and we think an annual fee is the best way to
align with our customers.

We've spent 3 years to get to this point. We're now live and actively inviting
people from our waitlist to apply for a card.

We talk to our customers often and ask them what they think about us. We will
continue building and making it better. Here's what we've heard:

"The few people I’ve showed your service to so far have said “this is what we
should have had all along” and I agree."

"Final just solved my XM radio problem. I've been trying to cancel XM for a
year. Each month I dispute their charges, Amex credits my money back.. but
Amex would never just BAN them from charging me. Generated new final number,
added to XM, then froze account. Boom."

"Final is one of the best banking products I've ever used. You guys could have
sat back on your haunches and only delivered the cool feature of generating
cards, but the well-designed phone app, the card, and your great customer
service make every other card I have in my wallet pale in comparison. I reach
for the final card to make daily payments not because of rewards points, but
because I see the receipt immediately and I'm able to instantly dispute the
charge if necessary. I don't know if there's such thing as 'credit card
anxiety', but something about that gives me so much peace-of-mind. Thank you
for creating a great product!"

And our favorite: "You guys f __king killed the UX experience. The site is a
pleasure to use. "

~~~
forbiddenlake
My feedback: The virtual card numbers and the ease of generating them are
tempting. But I'm already protected from fraud by my existing Citi DoubleCash
(2% cash back, no annual fee). I'm not going to lose 1% cash back and the fee
to get a Final card.

~~~
Schweigi
Btw: Citi Double offers virtual numbers too but its a bit hidden on the
website and requires flash.

------
gerad
Does anybody know how using multiple virtual card numbers impacts your credit
score (if it does)?

~~~
kintamanimatt
It doesn't. It's one account that has essentially has multiple account
numbers. It's the activity of the underlying account that matters, not which
account number you as an end user use to access the account.

------
X86BSD
I have stopped using any of my cards that don't work with Apple Pay. Apple Pay
solves the problem of a static card number being stored god knows where for
how long in who knows what flat file or databases. One time card numbers ftw.

------
simplify
Does anyone know how Final / other companies are able to create virtual CC
numbers? Is there an API or something?

~~~
arfrank
We do it from the core infrastructure we run ourselves. Built the full stack
to have flexibility and innovate in industry where 90+% of CC transactions
still run on mainframes & COBOL

~~~
Someone
New and shining can have disadvantages, too. Was your code audited for
security?

~~~
arfrank
Yes, many times over, but always looking for holes, and actually that
infrastructure is separate from the pieces that are exposed to public web.

Traditionally, we do it this way too, these piece of the payments ecosystem
are all whitelisted IPs for access and MPLC circuits for connections.

------
bastard_op
My largest complaint is every time some company's crap security gives up my
credit card and PII data, the card companies protect the stupid in not telling
me who it was. I find this abhorrent, as if I knew, I'd simply never deal with
them again.

The concept of Final is pretty awesome, as in theory this now allows me to
identify who they were when I have to change out a particular number for a
vendor. I then know they were a crap company, and likely would just never use
them again. Finally.

I use BofA as the convenience at least here in Phoenix is great, but their
disposable card numbers is no good for repeat transactions, which I do
frequently. It is also highly inconvenient that it only exists for Credit
Cards, and not my Debit that I use just as frequently. Final's solution fixes
this (except my debit card) imho, definite perks I wish BofA had today.

With any luck, the banks will see what they are doing and at least copy them
now that someone has shown them the methodology. This should be an industry
standard solution in lieu of major PII breaches every 3 months these days.

------
catwell
I have been using something like this for years (a French service from my
banking group called Virtualis). I have no idea why it's not more frequent.

The main thing to be careful about is not to use this to pay for things where
you will be required to provide physical proof of card ownership later. For
instance, some French railroad tickets can be withdrawn from machines where
you must insert the card that has been used to purchase them.

------
Keverw
Pretty cool. I've always wondered why the credit card industry never did
something like this. Can you view the full number you used for a company? Like
I know at least 2 businesses off the top of my head that asks for full credit
card numbers for support, and then another one only wants the last four.

Which I really feel that's insecure to even ask for the full number other than
when you first order.

------
tyfon
Do they really go for the iphone only route in 2016 or am I missing a link
somewhere?

~~~
arfrank
Working on native Android full steam now, but yep started with iPhone for now.
Web is full responsive and have a ton of Android users using it and happy w/
experience. But point taken.

------
rimantas
No mention of [https://revolut.com](https://revolut.com) yet?

~~~
gergles
Revolut no longer wants American customers, so likely not much mention on HN.

(It's impossible to reload a Revolut account from a US one now.)

~~~
toadi
Probably due to FACTA. Not many banks in Europe want to deal with this. So
most of them refuse American citizens as customer.

As revolut uses a traditional bank their bank probably doesn't want to deal
with it.

------
erebus_rex
Does anyone know if this company has any relation to Coin (recently sold to
Fitbit)? I ask because they use literally the same actor in their video (and
the style is identical to boot) [0].

Did a quick google search to see if maybe they had the same co-founders but no
dice.

[0]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9Sx34swEG0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9Sx34swEG0)

EDIT: Apparently the actor runs a production company that makes commercials
for start ups and he stars in many of them[1]. It is actually quite surreal.

[1] [http://sandwichvideo.com/](http://sandwichvideo.com/)

~~~
calvinbhai
SV has made many such videos for popular startups. Whats unique about it is
that the production company also takes some equity in exchange of reduced
production costs, there by sharing the risk/reward of the startup client.

------
OJFord
This wouldn't work in the UK because you can almost never pay a "subscription"
with a credit card - it would usually be a direct debit, or they might accept
a debit card.

So I was going to comment along the lines of "surely it's actually a debit
card, and I'm not sure I trust a company with such inaccurate copy with my
money" \- but comments here seem to suggest it's correct.

Anything can be put on a CC in the USA then? Do you also have DD? Why would
you use DD if you can use your CC for such things?

The Wikipedia section on DD in the UK is very much longer than that for the
USA. Funny, I never doubted that it was universal.

~~~
fryguy
Why would you use a debit card, which directly takes money out of your banking
account, when you can use a credit card which increases a number owed against
you? The former can cause lots of money in overdrawn bank accounts, while the
latter will only cause the transaction to be declined. Also debit causes you
to have to pay the fee, while credit forces that on the merchant.

Almost everything in the US is done with a credit card (through VISA et al
networks). Most people's debit cards go through the same networks. If by DD
you mean direct debit through the banks, that's called ACH here and is pretty
awful with respect to fraud since you have to give your bank account number,
and transactions take several days to go through.

~~~
gambiting
Wait, what? It's the exact opposite of what you described! If you don't have
money in your account, a debit card will just get declined. No fee to pay, no
penalty, nothing - transaction just gets declined and that's it. Debit cards
are also free to use in most places, while using a Credit Card has a 2-4%
extra fee. Debit cards are free to issue, while Credit Cards usually have a
yearly fee.

Is it just completely the other way around in the US?

~~~
oarsinsync
Which bank are you with? Most UK banks will gladly allow transactions on debit
cards to go through, resulting in your account being hit with overdraft fees,
the size of which vary depending on whether the overdraft was pre-agreed,
exceeded, or entirely unarranged.

Unfortunately, the prevailing attitude in most UK banks that I've seen is one
to look to profit from transactions rather than protect their clients.
Unarranged overdrafts are fantastic money makers in that regard.

~~~
OJFord
Sure, if you have an overdraft.

But parent commenter's point was that if you do this with a credit card you
could be completely unable to pay - if, for example, you have a single bank
account with:

    
    
        (balance + overdraft) < minimum payment for credit card
    

This can't happen with a debit card, since it will decline the payment, in the
same way it would if you tried to use it to pay off a credit card bill of the
same amount per above.

------
uzantonomon
Portugal has had this service for years.

[https://www.mbnet.pt/](https://www.mbnet.pt/)
[https://www.mbway.pt/](https://www.mbway.pt/)

------
smsm42
I think my dream scenario here is some big bank or other large financial
company (like Fidelity) buying this for the technology and combining with
their credit card line.

Not that I wish or think the founders can't make on their own, but CC market
is rather commoditized, and I don't think they can compete on technology alone
here. 1% + 49/year annual fee is not a superior offer. But a bank that can do
2%+no annual fee attached to it could do wonders with it I think. No financial
pro, so maybe I am completely wrong :) but I'd switch to such offer right now.

------
frenchman_in_ny
It seems like they're rolling out the equivalent of Application Specific
Passwords that Google has for sites that don't work with TFA.

How much info are you displaying on the various merchants that are billing via
the individual card numbers? My credit card bill tends to have a transaction
identifier, the name of the merchant & a reference number (along with
transaction date & post date). Would be great to have merchant's address and
additional information on it and flag if it's recurrent.

------
alexkehayias
I've gotten early access and have been trying it out. So far it's been
incredibly easy to use (one time cards is awesome for ordering food or trying
out new merchants/startups) and I enjoy the notifications. I just received the
plastic card so it may end up being my primary card replacing a Chase Freedom
card I have had forever (also 1% cashback). As for the comments about annual
fees, if this becomes your primary card I think it will more than pay for
itself over a year.

------
no_protocol
> We are PCI-DSS v3.1 compliant and apply PCI standards when dealing any
> cardholder information

I don't think this was some kind of wordplay attempt around _dealing_ a deck
of _cards_. Hopefully they're just "dealing with" the information instead.
Typos in statements proclaiming how safe and secure they are...

The concept seems fine, I think some of this is already possible with other
card issuers. I doubt I would pay a $49 annual fee for the service when there
are free cards available.

~~~
tarheeljason
Yes, I immediately thought of Citi's Virtual Account Numbers.

Citi also offers a card with no annual fee and 2% cash back, so if you use
Final you're effectively paying $49 plus 1% of your spending each year for a
trivial increase in piece of mind that you didn't need to begin with (because
you're not liable for fraud).

------
josephwandile
have been using this for a couple months and absolutely the love the
experience

aside from the obvious security benefit, the UX makes me never want to use
another credit card. being able to see all of my merchant relationships in one
place makes it easy to keep track of payments, paying my balance is
effortless, the push notifications are seamless.

when final says they're making a credit card for the 21st century, one part of
that is security, but a huge part of it is UX + customer support, too.

------
crisopolis
Having to pay a annual fee, a credit check and get an invite to use it? Might
as well just use my AMEX or my debit card. My bank is more crazy over
transactions than anything.

Walk into a Wal-Mart, as soon as I put the card in my phone rings (it's my
bank) and card is denied.

AMEX likes to text and email me of things needing my confirmation.

If all else Privacy.com does the job just fine of generating new cards,
burners, and etc.

------
largehotcoffee
Another one?

~~~
tommynicholas
This was probably the first one of these you saw, because their original
concept website came out I believe 2 years ago. They haven't launched (still)
although a few others have. They've now added some things and it looks
interesting, but has been a long time coming.

~~~
aaronpk
They did launch! I've had the card for a month or so. Tho I haven't found as
many opportunities to use it as I had hoped

~~~
tommynicholas
Oh that's great! I guess they haven't launched to everyone.

------
bogomipz
"The credit card was broken. We fixed it.

The next time you hear about a big credit card breach, you can relax."

I don't actually agree with either of these statements. I think what is broken
are practices of credit reporting agencies, theres really only the "Big 3" in
the US = Transunion, Equifax and Experian." They are in control of your credit
profile and not you the consumer/citizen/person. They are constantly selling
your data. When you get a credit card offer in the mail it is because a third
party bought a risk profile from one of these big three credit reporting
agencies.

Their security practices and policies are also questionable. A recent example
- last year Experian was breached and millions of customers data was stolen.
Experian informed people weeks later via snail mail. Apparently they didn't
think this was time-sensitive issue. They offered two years of free credit
monitoring after which time they would start billing you for the service -
talk about an inappropriate marketing opportunity.

This is so horribly broken on so many levels. You can not opt out of these
agencies owning your credit profile.

Also I have had fraudulent activity on my credit card accounts before with two
major credit cards and both times they have proactively informed me that there
was suspicious activity and to contact them. I contacted them and they issued
a new card and told me to not worry about the charges. This was the last I
heard of it. Yes you need to go update your credit card number with people
online but in my case only half a dozen places would have that and generally
merchant will email you if there is a problem with the card such as you forgot
to update them with the new one.

I am curious if anyone has tried this new card though, it looks interesting.

------
relics443
Maybe it's just me, but when I see a new product with iOS or Android only
apps, I get turned off.

~~~
deadcast
I do as well. If it's proprietary then I don't want to run it on my phone. No
thanks.

------
raldi
If you load this page on an iPhone 7 in landscape mode, it shakes like crazy
and is unreadable.

~~~
arfrank
Thanks will look into it. Some old janky JS we have from what is still our
original marketing site at its core. This codebase is separate from all actual
customer data/sensitive things, so it could use some JS best practice cleanup
clearly (even though this might be a responsive CSS thing)

------
findjashua
As another commenter has posted - bofa & citi also let customers generate
'virtual' cc numbers. So Final is only useful for customers of other banks, or
is there any advantage for bofa/citi customers as well?

------
WhiteOwlLion
I too will pass. My old MBNA now BofA that generates virtual credit cards
numbers without a fee. CitiBank also has cards with this feature. There's no
compelling feature that would make me pay $49/yr as annual fee.

------
eruditely
People in this thread are just obscuring the details of this announcement,
which is that this is wonderful and that I will be looking to acquire one of
these cards.

Work well done.

~~~
bogomipz
A discussion is taking place in response to content and subject of this post.
I would hardly call that "obscuring the details of this announcement."

------
Sym3tri
Dang. I was hoping it would be virtual cards combined with something like
Coin[1]

[1][https://onlycoin.com](https://onlycoin.com)

~~~
arfrank
In all honesty, the juice isn't worth the squeeze. When you put a battery into
that form factor battery life is a big issue and keeping in sync with your
phone really harms it. Add recharging and you have other tradeoffs, so EMV
gets us 95%+ of the way there and we're happy not having to solve really hard
esoteric challenges related to things like the Bluetooth stack for BLE use.

------
kylebenzle
Give me the ability to pre-load this thing with a given amount of bitcoin
linked to a switchable account and we would be all set.

------
EGreg
That guy... and his videos! Pretty cool no? He stars in all his own vids. How
do they choose what startup to make them for?

~~~
ryanSrich
They explain it pretty well here [http://sandwichvideo.com/how-it-
works/](http://sandwichvideo.com/how-it-works/)

------
ksomnath
Using this card for a while... Simply great

------
joeblau
Did final pivot from a physical card like Coin to a virtual card creator like
privacy.com?

~~~
josephwandile
No--

Coin is a container for multiple existing card. Final is a new physical
(credit) card which comes with an unlimited number of virtual sub-accounts.

Privacy is similar to coin in that it's just a wrapper over your existing
payment methods.

------
franciscop
> "18.0% Annual Percentage Rate (Variable)"

Is this normal? It seems like a LOT to me

~~~
chris_7
Why does this matter? If it does, you're doing it incredibly wrong. The annual
fee and pathetic rewards percentage are much more odious.

~~~
franciscop
I am Spanish and I got lost in translation, from the rest of the comments and
a quick search this is when _borrowing_ money; I thought it was a different
kind of fee (:

Edit: I misunderstood it since "Annual Percentage Rate" seems like just a
group of English words together when it actually has a special meaning in
economy

~~~
chris_7
It's the interest rate you pay if you do not pay off your credit card in full
every month, but you should always pay off your credit card in full every
month, so it doesn't actually matter.

------
eonw
this seems like a great idea, i just wonder how it will scale... wont you max
out the allowable CC numbers in your BIN?

~~~
eonw
or on throwaway(single use) cards, do they just reissue the same CC# but with
different exp and cvv?

------
chirau
If this is based on a FICO score, then please spare us the hype. You are not
doing anything different. Just convolution of processing, that's all.

------
egze
Is it Visa Debit?

~~~
Gaelan
Visa credit.

