
Inside the Philip Morris campaign to 'normalize' a tobacco device - hhs
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-philipmorris-international-iqos-insig/inside-the-philip-morris-campaign-to-normalize-a-tobacco-device-idUSKBN20F1Q7
======
drc500free
It seems very hard to have clear policy discussions about "less harmful"
products.

Opiates > Marijuana > No Drugs

Cigarettes > Juul > No Tobacco

Bottled Soda > Bottled Water > Tap Water

They all seem to devolve into a group that only looks at the first two arguing
with a group that only looks at the second two. Are there any good policy
frameworks for how to evaluate something that reduces very harmful behavior
while increasing less harmful behavior?

~~~
cavanasm
I'm also under the impression that the evidence for Juul being meaningfully
safer than cigarettes doesn't really exist. It's more a lack of evidence in
either direction (whether Juul and similar vape products are more or less
harmful than cigarettes) because research is still ongoing.

~~~
aphextim
Anecdata storytime:

I used to smoke a pack a day, and when I switched to vaping I personally felt
much better. I was able to do things a bit better than when I was smoking
cancer sticks.

Looking back I was lying to myself thinking it was just as good as quitting. I
didn't feel the heavy tar on my lungs like cigarettes. I still noticed when
pushing myself on work outs or hiking or biking or anything requiring aerobic
activity that I would get sick to my stomach and almost puke like when you run
long distance and are not used to it. I could go further than when I smoked
but I would always hit this "wall" where I would get sick.

Quit 100% 3 months ago and took up XC Skiing. I could only do 2 miles when I
first started. Just last week I did 10 miles and I have been going once on the
weekend every week so in 12 sessions I was able to 5x my aerobic ability.

Starting at 0%, switching to vaping I would say made me feel/perform overall
15-20% better compared to cigarettes.

Quitting vaping filled in that other 80% and the difference is like night and
day and so obvious I was lying to myself to keep the habit alive longer than I
needed to.

Smoking timeline:

Smoked 18-30, transitioned to vaping.

30-31 vaped 12mg juice.

31-32 vaped 6mg juice.

32-33 vaped 3mg juice.

33-34 vaped 0 mg juice.

Quit Vaping 100% last Thanksgiving cold turkey (really was just mental habit
at this point smoking 0 mg juice) 3 months vape free!

~~~
Dylan16807
If you quit vaping and started skiing at the exact same time that makes it
pretty hard to know how much of the improvement came from each.

------
jacob019
So they're marketing tobacco vaporizers and trying to push it as an upscale
luxury good. Most people here know how hard it is to watch someone die of
tobacco related illness, just a terrible way out. How is this company that has
profited off of so much death and misery still thriving while our jails are
full of addicts?

~~~
dcolkitt
The health impact of smoking overwhelmingly comes from inhaling smoldering
organic compounds.[1] There's no evidence that the psychoactive compounds in
tobacco, including nicotine, has any impact on mortality[2].

At worst (smokeless) nicotine is no more harmful than caffeine. In fact
nicotine appears to be neuroprotective against Alzheimers, Parkinsons, and
general age-related cognitive decline[3].

[1][https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK53014/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK53014/)
[2][https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine](https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine)
[3][https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/study-finds-nicotine-
sa...](https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/study-finds-nicotine-safe-helps-
in-alzheimers-parkinsons/2175396/)

~~~
harimau777
How does that line up with the fact that chewing tobacco is still associated
with oral cancer?

~~~
dcolkitt
Most preparations of chewing tobacco are smoke or fire cured. The process
still introduces many of the byproducts that are created during the combustion
of dried organic material.

The most prominent example of chewing tobacco that isn't smoke cured would be
Scandinavian-style snus. There's pretty compelling evidence that snus is not
associated with oral cancer[1], or at the very least the risk is substantially
lower than traditional chewing tobacco.

[1]
[https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1046/j.1360-0443...](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1046/j.1360-0443.2003.00442.x)

~~~
aesclepius
There are a few meta-analysis about snus cancer risk. I think generally the
opinion [1] is that while lower than other smoke-cured tobaccos, there still
exists a non-zero risk for oropharyngeal cancer risk and statistically-valid
increase in pancreatic and esophageal cancer risk compared to non-tobacco
users.
[1]([https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanonc/article/PIIS1470-2...](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanonc/article/PIIS1470-2045\(08\)70173-6/fulltext))

------
aerotwelve
These companies are selling an addictive poison and continuing to get away
with it -- never forget that.

~~~
homonculus1
I feel blessed to live in a world where companies can "get away with" selling
products to people who are informed of the risks and choose to buy them. The
urge to remove the option for others to behave irrationally runs strong in
some, but we mustn't be carried away by ego.

 _“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims
may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons
than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron 's cruelty may
sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who
torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with
the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven
yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness
stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of
states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who
have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed
with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.” --C.S. Lewis_

~~~
MereInterest
How does this apply to second-hand smoke? I did not consent to have poisonous
fumes near me. Second-hand smoke should be considered a form of battery, of
which tobacco companies are accomplices and enablers.

How does this apply to the misinformation campaign waged by tobacco companies?
Their customers were deceived, and therefore could not give informed consent.

~~~
chachachoney
>> Second-hand smoke should be considered a form of battery, of which tobacco
companies are accomplices and enablers.

That's hyperbolic to the point of seeming like farce.

~~~
homonculus1
I used to think that being smart was inherently virtuous, but I've noticed
that some people use it to infinitely rationalize their demands of others. It
is utopian thinking, colored by some flavor of personal bias, which inevitably
falls short of the real world in its attempts to optimize other people's
lives.

The traditionally spiritual mindsets are necessary to be a positive fit.
Wisdom, mindfulness, humility, acceptance etc. I think they are correlated to
intelligence but they are not as immediately accessible as cleverness, they
must be intentionally cultivated.

Everybody has to seek these for themselves and try to be a good model for
those they interact with. Nobody is good enough to be good for everybody else,
plan the whole system, and cure everybody by rule of force. The inability to
tolerate some amount of imperfection and dirtiness is the root of a greater
evil. Don't invite dragons to take care of your wolf problem.

------
jimbob45
[https://truthinitiative.org/research-resources/emerging-
toba...](https://truthinitiative.org/research-resources/emerging-tobacco-
products/6-important-things-know-about-iqos-new-heated)

For those who also had no idea what an "IQOS" was. Looks like it's an e-cig
you shove a cigarette into. Seems dumb. If I was a kid, I wouldn't think it
seemed preferential over regular e-cigs.

~~~
derefr
If you think of it as an e-cigarette, it’s dumb. If you think of it as a fancy
_filter_ for regular cigarettes, it’s potentially clever. Especially if, for
some reason, you already have the cigarettes, or can acquire them for cheaper
than you can acquire e-cig liquid (because e.g. you work at a convenience
store.)

~~~
jacob019
It's a vaporizer for leaf material. People have been using this tech for weed
for 20+ years.

------
AcerbicZero
I'm not entirely sure that tobacco is the worst product involved with this
article. At this point Instagram seems to be doing more social harm than any
form of smoking could.

I'm half joking, but to me this is all a freedom thing. If a person is capable
of making their own decisions in this already pretty complicated world, the
option to use (or to not use) tobacco seems like one they can handle.

~~~
kube-system
Mental health is so much harder to measure. I have a feeling that social media
is boiling the frog already. Like health crises of the past, we won't realize
what we've done until it's too late. Except with mental health it'll be much
easier to blame the victims instead of the institutions that caused the
problem.

~~~
Nasrudith
Blaming social media for mental health issues sounds deeply questionable no
matter how many correlative studies. I doubt it is generally healthy but
making it out to be the next tobbaco is absurd. There are far too many
overlapping changes with potential negative effects, let alone the role of
diagnosis and awareness affecting apparent numbers - a town without any access
to diagnosis will look mentally healthy even if literally everyone has severe
PTSD.

Even if a correlation is taken as granted it is logically flawed as concluding
kids eating their lunch alone are at an increased suicide risk - never mind
shunning or bullying that is the shared cause of both!

~~~
kube-system
I'm not blaming social media for the problem, per se. Ultimately, it is the
way people _use_ the tool that will determine whether it is a pro or a con.
The issue is that the general public (or, most anyone) does not fully grasp
how their use of the tool will affect themselves and those they interact with.

------
ficklepickle
Story time. These folks funded a restaurant industry magazine "startup". I got
hired to build their online version.

The people I was dealing with were severely out of their depth and all over
the place frankly. I was very confused as to who was giving these people
money.

They had me meet them at their "office", which was actually the lunch area in
the back if an IQOS-branded office. Eventually I put it together, and
confirmed that it was in fact funded by a tobacco company.

The magazine flopped shortly thereafter. I imagine the intent was to become
popular amongst restaurant staff, then push this IQOS device.

I put "startup" in quotes, because they never had a viable business plan or
the ability to follow anything through. The while thing made a lot more sense
when I realized it was a tobacco shill project.

This happened in Vancouver.

Edit: typo

------
leto_ii
As a Romanian I can testify that Iqos is quite prevalent. While smoking is
normally prohibited inside, there are places where Iqos devices are allowed.

They also have a fancy building to showcase their products in the Bucharest
city center, under the guise of some sort of art/media center:
[https://qreator.ro/](https://qreator.ro/)

------
hhs
As cited in the piece, this is the 313-page white paper:
[http://tobacco.stanford.edu/tobacco_main/publications/IQOS_P...](http://tobacco.stanford.edu/tobacco_main/publications/IQOS_Paper_2-21-2020F.pdf)

------
ortusdux
Apparently there are also privacy concerns for this device. Great.

[https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-
report/tobacco-...](https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-
report/tobacco-iqos-device/)

------
ufo
In the first picture, what is the white cylinder next to the sign that says
"no smoking, IQOS only"?

~~~
PawelDecowski
IQOS “ashtray”:

[https://uk.iqos.com/shop/iqos-3/iqos-3-accessories/trays-
and...](https://uk.iqos.com/shop/iqos-3/iqos-3-accessories/trays-and-
disposal/iqos-tray)

------
mimixco
The fact is that adults don't take up a new nicotine habit, so it's no
surprise that PM must market IQOS as a sexy, exciting "lifestyle" for young
people. This is part and parcel of the industry they're in. They'd be doing it
in the US, too, but for the strict regulations here which disallow it.

~~~
chachachoney
>> The fact is that adults don't take up a new nicotine habit

That's not a fact. There are plenty of smokers who acquire the habit as
adults.

~~~
mimixco
According to the CDC[0], 9 out of 10 new smokers are under 18.

[0][https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/yout...](https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/youth_data/tobacco_use/index.htm)

~~~
chachachoney
What you're presenting is not factual evidence that adults don't take up new
nicotine habits, it's evidence to the contrary.

