
Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs - pmcollins
https://www.wraltechwire.com/2020/09/14/feds-ibm-did-discriminate-against-older-workers-in-making-layoffs/
======
starkred
I've seen it spun as a move away from the legacy stack into the new modern
architecture. Of course the legacy stack programmers have a suspicious common
element.

Also, of course, 2-3-5 years later the legacy stack is still what keeps the
business running while all the new shiny toys have come and gone.

I had a boss who came over, asked me what was working on and then looked me in
the eye and said, firmly and deliberately, "So you are working on
transitioning to the new architecture". I shrugged, said "I guess", and he
left. Only later did I realize that he was saving my hide.

~~~
joe33433
This is the one of the most important reason i love work from home(aka remote
work). Remote work makes it a bit harder to discriminate against age

------
duxup
A fellow older classmate of mine and I were looking for work after changing
careers.

We were talking about his recent interview when he got a call from the
recruiter and put her on speakerphone. She told them they were going with
someone else because they thought the other person "fit the culture" better.

He asked if she could give some feedback on what that meant and she flat out
said "Some people thought you were too old." Shocked he asked again and she
repeated it. I don't think it even occurred to the recruiter that it was
wrong.

My buddy chose not to do anything, both of us looking for work and etc really
didn't want to get into some legal situation and looking for work.

~~~
flowerlad
What would happen if you lied about your age (eliminate the first 10 years
from your resume), both at the time of applying for the job and after joining
the company? How much trouble can you get in for that? It doesn't seem
unethical at all.

~~~
Causality1
Every job I've ever gotten I had to provide ID.

~~~
yardie
Every job that you have gotten has needed ID for background checks. I've never
been asked for ID, age, or gender during the interview process. Nor would I
give that information freely.

I recently filled an online application that asked for SSN and I dropped it
right there. You only need my SSN for employer taxes, no way is that part of
any job interview.

~~~
forgotmypw17
SSN also has an approximate timestamp encoded into it. The prefix can be
linked to the time period it was given out, which is typically at or near
birth registration.

~~~
forgotmypw17
This is public knowledge, and the prefixes are even used for identity
verification at banks.

If you got your SSN at an age other than ~0, you may get flagged as a mis-
match when e.g. applying for a new bank account, and it will require a human
override to get past.

------
liability
Not surprising. Years ago one of my (gray haired) mentors opened my eyes to
ageism in this industry by asking me to pay attention to how many programmers
in the office have gray hair. Once you start looking for it, it becomes
obvious that age discrimination is rampant. Some blame the young workforce on
the industry being young, but the industry is decades old at this point so I
don't think that excuse holds water.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Older workers have experience. Experience is expensive. You can generate a lot
of revenue with workers with less experience, even factoring in mistakes,
lower productivity and output, etc. Age discrimination is rarely punished, and
when it is, the penalties are minimal.

Incentives matter.

~~~
ska
> You can generate a lot of revenue with workers with less experience, even
> factoring in mistakes, lower productivity and output, etc.

It's not at all clear that there a net gain here, so the situation is at best
complex.

~~~
mikelyons
In what way is the net gain not clear here?

It seems clear to me that "even factoring in" means that there is a net gain
for the employer, at a net loss to employees.

~~~
majormajor
The companies I've worked at have been very bad at measuring things like "this
is how much that bug cost us in terms of people who tried the app once and
then never came back." They're so focused on the data sources that are easy to
collect that things like this are basically invisible. They know churn rate is
an important thing to track, but look at it much more from a "what about this
new feature, or changing the color of the icons" perspective, than from a
"what if our software was less of a dumpster fire?" perspective.

If you want to build quickly AND have flexibility AND have some reliability,
you're gonna need some experienced employees, but if that's not a thing you've
ever seen cause you've only ever worked with people fresh out of school...
you're not gonna know what you're missing.

------
ChuckMcM
Could add "... to the surprise of absolutely no one." to that headline :-).

Blekko was acquired by IBM, and as a result I worked there for 18 months as we
transitioned from company to being part of IBM. That they were trying to
aggressively move the "old guard" out was not much of a secret.

In their particular case I actually felt some sympathy for them because, as a
100+ year old company, a lot of long time veterans had a comfort zone around
what used to work but no longer worked. I had a long, largely one-sided,
conversation with a senior leader in their "Cloud" organization to try to
explain how companies like Google and Facebook use and deploy data centers as
essentially very large computers. But this person was so comfortable and
confident in the 'enterprise data center' concepts that died with Digital
Equipment and Sun Microsystems they just couldn't wrap their heads around it.

I get that, I struggle with it as well, when the world changes as fast as it
does, your have to _actively_ re-evaluate what is "canon" and what isn't. If
you cannot do that, then it doesn't help you to stay in a leadership position
because you will drive right into the iceberg confident in all your decisions.

~~~
yourapostasy
_> But this person was so comfortable and confident in the 'enterprise data
center' concepts that died with Digital Equipment and Sun Microsystems they
just couldn't wrap their heads around it._

It doesn't help that IBM business leadership signs off on core IBM Cloud
product/service attributes that are essentially old-style IBM remote
enterprise data center contracts dressed up in new marketing language. Sign up
with a variety of IBM cloud products, and you'll find some still have planned
outages. In fact, the IBMid infrastructure sometimes still experiences
outages. The notion of a "dial-tone service" is recognized by the IBM Cloud
organization as necessary to compete, but that consistent lack across the
board is one of many reasons they're a distant runner-up in cloud providers.

------
holidayacct
This happens repeatedly and isn't anything new. This happens because there are
a bunch of mentally ill people running tech companies that want jobs to be
about "belief".

They don't want older people in tech because they want to empire build with
the latest and greatest insecure technology.

They want to create frustration engines with poor engineering practices they
older tech workers won't put up with it. The goal is to make technology more
difficult so they can slowly re-train you to go to other people and hate all
technology. This is a real thing and has burned out so many software engineers
you'd be shocked at how many of them don't know their manager was the person
who purposely made their job difficult to burn out another software engineer.

They want strange conspiracies about what the software actually does that
older workers don't need to put up with (because some of it is illegal). If
you're good at reading source code and figure out what they are actually doing
in the source code, in some cases companies blatantly selling software that
doesn't do anything they are selling their customers on. In some cases people
inject code into a repository when no one is looking, so they can run side
businesses using the company infrastructure. There are a ton of older tech
workers who read every line of the source code and when they start asking too
many questions people freak out and fire them to maintain a conspiracy.

This happens for all sorts of reasons.

~~~
horns4lyfe
This is fascinating, do you have any particular examples of the last paragraph
especially? Not saying I don't believe you, but I'm very curious.

~~~
AmericanChopper
I've worked at a couple of startups that have operated like this. They had
vaporware products, and were focused more on getting money out of investors
than they were brining a product to market. I arrive and realize that the code
quality is absolutely terrible, and worse, the approach they've decided to
take is simply never going to work. I report a list of problems to the CEO,
tell them they won't be launching in six months, and that the fastest way for
them to get a functional product would actually be to throw everything away
and start again.

This makes the CEO angry, because they don't care if they have a working
product. They only care about having a good story to tell investors. This
makes the existing technical leadership angry, because they don't know how to
do things properly, so having somebody say they're doing it wrong is obviously
a big issue for them. In fact, the only reason they're in technical leadership
positions to begin with is because the startup decided to cheap out and hire
people with 2 years experience working in body shops as "tech leads". I
realize the company can't be fixed so I leave, and the company folds once it
reaches the end of it's runway.

Companies like this aren't terribly uncommon, and they exist primarily to
defraud inexperienced investors. FWIW, I've seen this play out at every
blockchain startup I've contracted at.

------
PragmaticPulp
It appears that IBM executives specifically told managers to direct layoffs at
older workers to make room for younger hires. And apparently they did so in
recorded communications:

> The investigation uncovered top-down messaging from Respondent’s highest
> ranks directing managers to engage in an aggressive approach to
> significantly reduce the headcount of older workers to make room for Early
> Professional Hires.

------
x87678r
Median age at Facebook is 28? Wow. [https://www.businessinsider.com/median-
tech-employee-age-cha...](https://www.businessinsider.com/median-tech-
employee-age-chart-2017-8)

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
Zuck is on record saying he doesn't trust 30+ to write code.

~~~
Diederich
Do you have a reference for this? Thanks.

~~~
x87678r
"Young people are just smarter." is what he said in 2007, I think he would be
careful so that he would not say anything that controversial again.

~~~
larrik
I mean, he was only 23 then, and proving his own negative.

------
patwolf
I'm not surprised. A few years back IBM started a "back to the lab" initiative
to dissuade workers from working remotely. Workers that were unable to commute
to a physical office were forced to leave the company. My impression is that
this disproportionately affected older workers. It seemed like soon after the
dust had settled they no longer enforced the requirement. Note, this was after
I left the company, so it's all second-hand knowledge.

I do also recall that they were sued for ageism years ago after a round of
layoffs. Afterward they preemptively sent out a list of the ages and titles of
all workers prior to layoffs in order to be more transparent. The funny thing
is that it was possible in some cases to tell ahead of time who was being laid
off based on the age and title. Not a good way to find out about being let go.

~~~
johnward
> Workers that were unable to commute to a physical office were forced to
> leave the company.

I was at IBM during this time. As a consultant, my boss fought to keep us
remote.

In some cases people were told to go back to the office but physically
couldn't unless they packed up and moved. They were hired remote, so they
lived in an area that had no office.

------
ThatOneThere
This is still going on. In the last half of 2019, IBM in NY got rid of a
number of older workers, only to replace them with younger workers. In some
cases, a younger worker that was recently let go was rehired to replace an
older worker.

------
socrates1998
The big tech giants have used this marketing ploy that "older workers don't
understand new tech" to undercut them at almost every opportunity.

I honestly have no idea why they are allowed to get away with this in the
media and public opinion. Maybe because older people don't know new tech, so
they think older programmers don't know it either?

It's insane to me that an older programmer with decades of experience and
multiple language fluency is somehow "worse" than a 25 year old who has been
programming professionally for a few years at best and probably knows fewer
languages.

Tech companies think they can get away with it because they do exactly what
IBM did, fire all the old hats, then hire back the ones they really do need at
cheaper, contractor rates.

It's pretty revolting to me.

Sure there are old people at these large tech companies just collecting a
paycheck and really aren't better than the younger guys, but it's clearly not
to the extent that IBM would make you think.

Another reason why I won't ever work for a large company again.

~~~
commandlinefan
> cheaper, contractor rates.

Are contractors cheaper than permanent employees? I always thought it was the
opposite - that's why so many positions are "contract to hire". They'd rather
have a perm employee, but they want to deal with contracting for a few months
just to be on the safe side.

~~~
johnward
I left IBM by choice to become an IBM sub-contractor. I was paid better and
had better benefits. I don't really see how IBM is saving money here.

~~~
kls
If you are still subbing for them, raise you rate. IBM was one of my best
paying contracts, but I hated the work. I kept raising my rate to make them go
away, Finally I had to say you guys are eating up all my consultancy time, I
can't take contracts from you, because I am becoming too dependent financially
on a single source of revenue. It was a hard financial pill to swallow, given
that I was making 4x my rate of any other contracts. We parted ways amicably
but I had to make the break, as I was just becoming a satellite around IBM.

------
tyingq
Propublica did some research on this a couple of years ago and posted a pretty
in-depth story on it: [https://features.propublica.org/ibm/ibm-age-
discrimination-a...](https://features.propublica.org/ibm/ibm-age-
discrimination-american-workers/)

------
No1
The penalty for IBM: "the Commission now invites Respondent to join with it in
an effort toward a just resolution of this matter" and

"If you decline to enter into conciliation discussions, or when the
Commission’s representative is unable to secure an acceptable conciliation
agreement, the Director shall so inform the parties,advising them of the court
enforcement alternatives available to aggrieved persons and the Commission."

Basically, not even a slap on the wrist.

------
Dork1234
So what is the punishment going to be for IBM? Pizza for all laid off
employees and a free resuming writing class?

------
logicslave
Leetcode is veiled ageism where those who pass have inordinate amounts of free
time to study nonsense

~~~
errantspark
Not exactly, but ageism is probably a welcome externality. The value of
leetcode is mostly in helping hiring-people wash their hands of some
responsibility.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
Another externality - if not an intended effect - is that it selects for
people who are willing to accept an abusive relationship with their employer.

Why do I call it abusive? "Study this stuff, that isn't actually related to
your job, on your own time, for free, for months, and we _might_ give you a
job." Even if you do get a job, they still abused you.

~~~
vkou
Would you prefer a system of _strict_ credentialism, a system of lotteries, or
a system that optimizes for hiring the most eloquent bullshit artists,
instead?

Those are your three alternatives to the whiteboard interview.

Which would you prefer? (I'm perfectly willing to admit I've missed one[1],
but it's probably a subset of these three.)

[1] Life-long German apprenticeship/Japanese salaryman arrangements don't work
in the fast rise/fast fall tech environment. Also, Japanese salaryman culture
is horrific.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
False dichotomy. (Uh, quadricotomy?)

You can do a whiteboard interview without doing leet code. Do an actual coding
interview (whether whiteboard or not). Don't do credentials-only. Don't do a
lottery. And make sure you don't fall for a BS artist.

But in your coding interview, _don 't do leet code_. Just give a regular
coding problem. Not a big one, not a long one, not an especially tricky one.
Then watch them code, and listen. (Ask them to think out loud - it's important
to understand how they think.) That's all it takes.

~~~
vkou
> But in your coding interview, don't do leet code. Just give a regular coding
> problem. Not a big one, not a long one, not an especially tricky one.

This limits the signal of the skill ceiling that you can pick up from the
interview. Give an easy whiteboard problem, and both a great candidate and a
good candidate will be evaluated to be roughly the same. (No red flags, both
solved the question)

It's a bit like hiring a plumber, by giving each prospective contractor a two
question quiz: "Which way does crap flow?" [1] and "When is payday?" [2]

At that point, you are just going with a lottery system.

[1] Downhill

[2] Friday

~~~
AnimalMuppet
We in general don't need great. Good is OK. We just need to avoid bad or
terrible.

But we still knew when great showed up. I was one of the interviewers. I
remember that the interview switched, from us asking questions to find out how
much the candidate knew, to us asking questions so we could learn stuff.

Now she's a principal engineer. In her spare time, she's also my boss.

------
paxys
While serious, this is still an accusation, and will be ultimately decided by
the courts not EEOC.

~~~
imglorp
Speaking of which, highly relevant: the EEOC just got defanged.

[https://www.forbes.com/sites/patriciagbarnes/2020/09/08/an-e...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/patriciagbarnes/2020/09/08/an-
era-of-eeoc-activism-ends-with-a-whimper/#11f9df77506c)

~~~
vonmoltke
From that article it seems the EEOC hasn't cared about the particular type of
discrimination being discussed here in a long time anyway.

------
pjdemers
Health care. The actuarial cost of gold or platinum health plan for a 25 year
old single man is about $600 per month. The cost for a couple in their 50's,
with two college age children, is about $3,000 per month.

~~~
BrainlingPdx
It's almost like a for profit health care system creates a bunch of really bad
downstream effects that are a net negative to the total long term economy.

------
xrd
I get it. I understand that it is hard for a big company to avoid thinking and
optimizing for all the costs associated with older employees versus a younger
employee, especially H1Bs.

But, why not use the pulpit that comes with tech prestige (is it now all
gone?) to lobby for universal healthcare, and other ways to socialize those
costs? If things like healthcare and a sane social security system were in
place, wouldn't that even the playing field and be a win for everyone? I'm
surprised I don't see more US companies arguing for changes that would help
them.

------
victor106
This is another form of discrimination that should have stricter laws against.

IBM is so morally bankrupt I c\don't even know where to start. All their
products are geared towards having IBM professional services make money. They
purposefully do this by making sure the manuals they provide leave out
important steps on how to install and configure their software.

Also while they discriminate they should start with their CEO who is 58 years
old and their ex ceo who is 63 years old.

------
pm90
The actual letter from EEOC
[https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/7206573/2020-09-0...](https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/7206573/2020-09-02-IBM-
LOD-Amended-Final-1-003.pdf)

------
BXLE_1-1-BitIs1
IBM's (and other tech company) lawyers have been holding this decision off for
some 40 years. Late coming; too bad there's no punitive damages chargeable
against upper management bonuses.

------
baxtr
I’m pretty sure that this is in its core not about people being older but
people being more expensive.

------
heisenbit
Fast growing industries tend to hire like there is no tomorrow. Eventually
they hit a growth barrier. After a while the age structure of the company is a
problem. Could not happen in the social media industry...

------
jeffrallen
Duh, of course they did.

------
RobbieHacks
no shit sherlock

------
draw_down
These threads always fill up with people banging on about how they’re 82 years
old and still get plenty of work. But I still think you’re better off trying
like hell to make your money before you’re old, before you even have to engage
with these jackals.

Our work is not dignified work, our line of work does not have status in the
organization nor in the society. Ignore this reality at your peril.

