
Air Travelers Resisting the ‘Incredible Shrinking Airline Seat’ - prostoalex
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/06/business/airline-seat.html?mc=aud_dev&mcid=tw-nytimes&mccr=NovTwitter&mcdt=2017-11&subid=NovTwitter&ad-keywords=AudDevGate
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curtis
My most recent flight was on a United 737-900 with 38 or 39 rows. The seat
pitch can't have been more than 30 inches, and might have been 29. It was as
cramped as I have ever seen on a 737. But the thing that really pissed me off
was the incredibly cramped bathroom.

This link ([https://services.airbus.com/upgrade/cabin/layout-
optimisatio...](https://services.airbus.com/upgrade/cabin/layout-
optimisation/smart-lav)) is actually an Airbus design, but it is almost
exactly what I remember on this 737. Not only was it cock-eyed (I don't know
what to call it), it was incredibly narrow, even for a 737 bathroom.

~~~
pls2halp
>Compared with the standard lavatories, Smart-Lav brings 5.5 additional inches
for more seats and 10 additional inches for recline space.

Yet they claim it "allows up to 6 additional seats in the cabin". Assuming
they're in a row, I fail to see how you can fit a seat in 5.5 inches.

>The interior of Smart-Lav has been designed to enhance the spaciousness and
the hygiene perception by the passengers.

It's blatantly focusing on perceptions over reality. I got sick in a plane
with a similar layout(I think it was with Emirates) and I remember it being
significantly more uncomfortable than any other plane I'd been on, and I think
I managed to hit my head while throwing up.

~~~
nollbit
If you take an inch of pitch from many other rows + the 5,5 that allows you to
fit an extra row or two.

Compare Lufthansas seatmap for the A320 vs A320neo. The neo has the Smartlav
and two additional rows of seats.

[http://magazin.lufthansa.com/content/uploads/2016/07/a320_si...](http://magazin.lufthansa.com/content/uploads/2016/07/a320_sitzplan_168.jpg)
[http://www.lufthansa.com/mediapool/pdf/08/media_1555228708.p...](http://www.lufthansa.com/mediapool/pdf/08/media_1555228708.pdf)

------
cousin_it
This is why libertarianism doesn't prevail. Most people don't want to live in
a caveat emptor world. All goods have hidden qualities you can't check before
buying, which need to be regulated.

~~~
Cthulhu_
It's not about libertarianism, it's about a race to the bottom and apparently,
there's more than enough people willing to sit in smaller seats if it saves
them a few bucks.

~~~
manyxcxi
I don’t think it’s a race to the bottom because people are okay with what
we’re getting. We have no other options, at best, we get to choose our flavor
of shit pie.

I have been able to successfully avoid United for the better part of a decade
and I fly Alaska and Southwest the most because I’ve had a satisfactory level
of service as the norm with them, not because their prices are the cheapest-
else I’d be flying Spirit airlines.

~~~
mgkimsal
Correct. We don't sit in smaller seats to save 'a few bucks', we generally sit
in smaller seats because

1\. they're the only ones available for the dates/times we need

2\. paying 40-150% more is prohibitive for many folks (and generally, is not a
'few bucks').

If we had 30 inch and 28 inch pitch seats, and you could choose, and people
would pay, say $10 more for 30 inch, that might get us a bit closer to the
original comment, but we're nowhere near that set of options.

~~~
hkmurakami
We do have "pay $50 more for 2 more inches of leg space", which in my
experience a decent number of people are paying for on United Economy Plus. (I
am happy to pay this price on longhaul)

------
ubernostrum
Most of the action on this is in something the article only barely mentions:
safety.

First of all there's the evacuation angle. Regulations require the ability to
evacuate the plane within 90 seconds, using only half of the exits. And by
"evacuate" they don't mean people lined up at the door waiting to get off --
they mean the order to evacuate is given, and then 90 seconds later there is
nobody left inside the plane.

There's a strong argument to be made that this is no longer physically
possible with high-density seat configurations. The tests for this are already
unrealistic (they involve people who are told in advance what's going to
happen, who know they aren't in danger, who don't face any issues such as
smoke to confuse them, and who have no particular attachment to each other or
to any baggage in the cabin), and as those tests have remained static their
detachment from reality has grown.

The second issue is survivability in an economy-class seat. This diagram is
instructive:

[https://img.thedailybeast.com/image/upload/d_placeholder_eul...](https://img.thedailybeast.com/image/upload/d_placeholder_euli9k/dpr_2.0/c_limit,w_585/fl_lossy,q_auto/170912-irving-
coach-embed3_khqwee)

That's used by airlines... for _flight crew_ seats. It lays out an area to be
kept free of obstructions, as anything in that area could cause devastating
head or neck injuries in an accident (due to the seat's occupant being jerked
suddenly and their head sweeping through that area). The diagram notes the
area is 35 inches deep, but it's easy to miss an important point: the 35
inches is measured from the front of the seat cushion to the rear edge of any
object in front of the seat. For passengers, airlines measure pitch from the
rear edge of one seat to the rear edge of the next, meaning a 30-inch pitch
(typical for US economy class) is not 5 inches (35 - 30) short of the safety
margin, it's more like 8 or even 10 inches short depending on the depth of the
seat cushions and frame.

There are court cases going right now over whether the FAA is inappropriately
ignoring safety concerns. A victory in court would, as a side effect, probably
make flying more comfortable but also slightly more expensive.

~~~
sleavey
While I'm with you on safety concerns, does that rule still apply to forward
facing seats? Most crashes happen when the aircraft is flying forward - so on
forward facing seats the thing your head will eventually hit if it whips back
is the headrest. I guess because cabin crew seats (almost always?) face
backwards, this is more of a concern. (Of course, some airlines like BA offer
rear facing beds in business class, but these provide much more space than the
minimum clearance requirement).

~~~
ubernostrum
The direction you're facing doesn't matter. What matters is the arc your head
would sweep through in the event of a sudden jerk bending you double (since
presumably your seat belt will keep you in the seat), and that can happen with
either direction.

Also, crew seats don't always face backwards.

------
luckyt
Makes sense, seat space isn't really something you consider when shopping for
plane tickets. Airlines have nothing to gain by making bigger seats, so the
natural progression down this road is smaller and smaller seats -- already,
some seats for budget airlines are half-standing [1].

[1]: [https://thepointsguy.com/2017/06/standing-seats-on-
vivacolom...](https://thepointsguy.com/2017/06/standing-seats-on-
vivacolombia/)

~~~
peteretep

        > Makes sense, seat space isn't really
        > something you consider when shopping
        > for plane tickets
    

And at the other end, international business class seats keep getting better
and better because it's absolutely a consideration. Hence: premium economy.

~~~
sleavey
I'm often surprised just how much more expensive premium economy tickets are.
I get that some people are willing to pay more for extra legroom, free/better
food and drink and so on, but the cost is often 5x that of standard economy.
To me, that seems a ridiculous markup to pay for slightly more comfort for
only a few hours, but I guess it works because airlines sell and fill these
seats.

~~~
viraptor
> for slightly more comfort for only a few hours

If it's only a few hours, sure, not a big difference. But when I fly
Melbourne-London, premium economy is a difference between being a zombie for
the next 48h, or arriving just tired. How much is the day after travel worth
for you?

~~~
hkmurakami
This is the calculus that you need to make in business travel, even at
startups. You're flying out your CEO on a business deal to Asia, on a 10 hour
flight. You can save $3k by flying him/her on Economy, but what is the hidden
cost to the business by having him/her be a zombie for the next 48 hours while
he/she has to negotiate a deal?

------
geetfun
Not to mention those of us who travel with families. It’s quite a mess to say
the least. Flying has become such a hassle I just rather drive and take a few
extra days off to accommodate the commute.

~~~
baby
Same here. If there is a train to go there I’ll pay extra and take the train.
Flying sucks so much. It’s not just the airport and the plane. But getting to
the airport or back home is also a hassle here in London.

------
jpalomaki
A good start we would be to make it mandatory for airlines to give information
about the seat size during booking. Then customer could make informed
decision. I would assume there are already some standards defined for how to
measure these things.

~~~
sleavey
I doubt they'd go for that. Airlines have to have flexibility to swap aircraft
running a particular route to account for delays. If they swapped to a smaller
seat pitch aircraft between a customer's booking and takeoff time, that'd lead
to confusion and complaints.

~~~
otterley
So they'd have to make the seat pitches in all their aircraft the same. Sounds
like a desirable outcome, especially if the seat pitches grow as a result.

------
ajeet_dhaliwal
I'm 6'2", so not super tall but I can barely fit in most economy seats and I
also cannot fit my legs in a London bus without manspreading. I'm hoping my
son is about 5'10" or 5'11" or so, otherwise I'm going to tell him, you've got
to get rich if you're planning on travelling otherwise it's rather
uncomfortable.

~~~
misja111
I'm 6'4" and although it's not very comfortable, I can just squeeze myself
into an economy seat.

However recently when I was flying I had a neighbour who was quite big. Not
even obese but just big shoulders. His arms simply didn't fit within his arm
rests so part of his shoulder was inside my seat area. There was nothing else
for me to do than bend to the side of my seat. Not very pleasant, especially
since this was a 5 hour flight.

~~~
WkndTriathlete
I think the key is femur length. If you're 6'4" but have the Michael Phelps
body type (all torso, short legs) you might fit in the seat just fine. I'm
6'1" and have the opposite body type - short torso, long femurs - and the seat
pitch in Delta economy is uncomfortable to me, so much that I usually pay the
upgrade for Economy Comfort.

------
megaman22
It's awful. I can't sit in aisle seats anymore; I'm a particularly awkward
combination of tall and broad-shouldered, so my knees are already jammed into
the seat in front just sitting there, and my shoulders jut out a couple inches
over the width of the seat on each side. With a window seat, I can kind of
twist myself around into the window well on all but the smallest planes, but
on the aisle I get trucked constantly by the drink cart or people streaming to
the bathroom.

~~~
true_religion
Have you considered paying for additional space on the plane? Perhaps as a
higher flight class?

------
Teknoman117
As a 6'4" individual, I've already stopped flying the major airlines due to
seat shrinking. Been flying JetBlue whenever it's available since their
standard seat pitch is 36". Nearly got kicked off a Delta flight once because
"I refused to stop pushing my knees into the passenger in front of me." I'm
sorry, but with the middle seat populated and not being allowed to put my leg
in the aisle, my legs go forward - and there is not enough room to not have
contact with the seat in front of me.

~~~
saddlerustle
Every major airline gives the option of paying 10%-20% more and getting more
legroom. United has Economy Plus, Delta has Comfort Plus, American Airlines
has Main Cabin Extra...

~~~
mindslight
Every major airline also sells their tickets based on transporting one human
passenger, end of story. I'd be open to a price based on some linear
combination of pitch/weight/etc. But shrinking seats so they don't fit actual
people, and then upcharging for a few inches of "premium" space is downright
fraudulent. It might only be 20% over their fantasy "full fare" prices, but
it's a larger proportion of the actual prices most people pay.

~~~
mFixman
Regular economy airplane tickets are a lot cheaper than they used to be N
years ago for any N.

I fit well in a regular airline seat. Why should I pay more because a fatter
or taller person wants to sit more comfortably in an airplane without paying
extra for a seat in economy plus designed for that exact purpose?

~~~
mindslight
"Why should _I_ pay more" isn't really an argument in the context of a company
that is trying to extract the maximum price from every single person. Someone
else's price going down will not make yours go up.

But as I said, if the variation in humans is really that large, then charging
a linear combination for depth/weight based on actual costs would be
completely understandable.

For the current state, let's take a quick look at say United [0]. A regular
ticket from BOS to LAX is $139, which is in line with the general range one
would expect to pay [1]. The upgrade to "Economy Plus" is $99. So for a pitch
increase of 20%, the price is 70% more?! This is price discrimination based on
immutable physical qualities - straight up gouging.

[0] I chose what I thought would be the worst offender here

[1] and has been roughly the price for well over a decade, disregarding the
new bag fees

------
chmaynard
When I'm seated next to a window and the middle seat is vacant (rare), travel
in coach becomes much more bearable. Do airlines allow a passenger traveling
alone to purchase two adjacent seats? Probably not, but it would be an
interesting social experiment to do this and observe how passengers and crew
respond during boarding.

~~~
splonk
This is possible but also requires a bit more coordination than just buying
two seats. If no one checks in for the second seat, the airline may decide
it's available if you haven't made special arrangements when booking.

Air New Zealand (and I think some Chinese airline) also have a program where
if you're traveling as a group of two, there are special rows in economy where
you can buy out the middle seat for less than it would normally cost. These
rows also have locking fold up extensions that fill the space between your
seat and the seat in front, so if you and your partner are both pretty small
and extremely friendly, you can both sleep lying down.

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userbinator
_The push to shrink the space between rows of seats comes as major carriers
are squeezing 10 abreast in more long-haul jets, so that the middle section
has four seats — and, by definition, two middle seats — rather than three._

3-4-3 in a 747 feels quite comfortable, but I would certainly not like it on
any smaller plane.

~~~
hkmurakami
I was thinking the same. 3-4-3 on a 747 is fine, but the same arrangement on a
777 does not sound appetizing.

~~~
sitepodmatt
Its not. Qatar Airways made my no fly list recently, they used to be great but
densification on 777 is painful, especially after stepping off an equally
cramped new sardineliner. Back to above-average Emirates and A380, the
densification programs esp on 777,and new cans like 787, have actually made
aircraft like a380, a330, and 747 rate higher than ever.

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randycupertino
People getting bigger. Seats getting smaller. Something's got to give.

