

US Air Force’s 1950s supersonic flying saucer declassified - Hellcat
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/137505-us-air-forces-1950s-supersonic-flying-saucer-declassified

======
anonymouz
I'd like to see what became of the project and why it was apparently canceled.

I disagree however with the last statement of the article: "If flying saucers
were somehow faster or more efficient or capable of lifting heavier loads, we
would almost certainly see them in a commercial setting."

Just because flying saucers aren't used commercially doesn't necessarily imply
that they are inefficient. It just means that the flying saucer technology _we
have at the moment_ is more inefficient than the fixed wing technology. Fixed
wing technology could simply be ahead because it has seen a lot more iterative
development.

Endeavors of this kind, that carry a huge upfront investment in the initial
technology compared to what's on the market now, tend to be things where a
free market really performs badly.

~~~
starpilot
Saucers are fixed-wings.

A saucer wing has a very low aspect ratio, which has very low aerodynamic
efficiency in cruise. The high-aspect trapezoidal wing we commonly see today
is used because it produces much less drag while providing sufficient wing
area to lift the aircraft. This has been understood since the 1930s, if not
earlier.

I can't see why a saucer airframe would be desirable unless it spent a lot of
time in backwards and sideways horizontal flight, where it might have better
stability than a traditional wing. The complexity of the controls and thrust
arrangement wouldn't seem outweighed by this though.

Actual test performance of Avro's saucers never exceeded altitudes of a few
feet and speeds of a few mph.

~~~
runjake
Sometimes I think the people who designed these kinds of saucer crafts
actually believed in extra-terrestrial UFOs and were on a mission to try and
duplicate what they envisioned their technology would be.

~~~
wallawe
Or, our government has witnessed said technology and tried to
recreate/reverse-engineer it? Makes you wonder why they would build something
like this just on a without a valid reason behind doing so.

~~~
anonymouz
The US government seems to be quite ready to try out a lot of fringe stuff if
it provides military applications (see
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stargate_Project>). They may as well just have
gotten their inspiration from the general flying saucer hype.

------
js2
Non-swipe link: [http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/137505-us-air-
forces-1950...](http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/137505-us-air-
forces-1950s-supersonic-flying-saucer-declassified?onswipe_redirect=never)

~~~
hnriot
thank you. I look forward to an internet without Swipe putting its nose into
web pages. My iPad renders webpages just fine without this nonsense.

~~~
notatoad
personally, i like swipe. If i see it start loading, i know that there's
virtually no chance of interesting content on the pages that follow, so i can
back out quickly. It seems as though the only sites that use it are terrible
blogspam sites like extremetech.

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stcredzero
What's with the Extremetech mobile site for iPad? There's nothing but black
and a slow moving "ring of death" for like 30 seconds. Then I can see the
page, but nothing responds for forever. Then after about a minute, the page is
all there _but then has to refresh again_. What is this? Completely
incompetent. Does anyone even test this? I'm on wired connection over 802.11n.
There's no excuse for this dial up modem like performance!

~~~
templaedhel
That would be onswipe [<http://onswipe.com/>]. They offer a plugin/integration
that makes your site "mobile ready" and optimized, meanwhile displaying ads
and getting revenue from that.

Except they don't. They just overrule scrolling and cut off content and
bombard you with ads. There is a lengthly bashing of them here
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2699610>.

 _"OnSwipe has become a perfect tool for preventing me from viewing content
I'd otherwise happily read."_

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ImprovedSilence
Interesting article, also led me on a tangent to check out the Coanda effect:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coand%C4%83_effect>

~~~
flurpitude
The explanation of what causes the effect is very poor on that page. Does
anyone have a better one?

~~~
draggnar
so from what I understand, the air bends around a surface the way water sticks
to the side of a teapot. The nozzle design has a "step", a little cutout at
the top of the curve closest to where the air is exiting from. This little
step causes a small vortex, or eddy, like in a river. The vortex causes an
area of lower pressure which bends the stream of air. You can clearly see the
exhaust nozzles on "fig-1" of the declassified documents:
[http://www.extremetech.com/wp-
content/uploads/2012/10/Fig-1-...](http://www.extremetech.com/wp-
content/uploads/2012/10/Fig-1-Cutaway.jpg)

Figure 2 has labels cut off, but there seems to be 6 engines around the craft,
forcing air to 6 points (note where it is labeled "engine access panel"):
[http://www.extremetech.com/wp-
content/uploads/2012/10/Fig-2-...](http://www.extremetech.com/wp-
content/uploads/2012/10/Fig-2-Cutaway-of-Aircraft-
Structure-e1348157629308.jpg)

The article that explains the effect: [http://www.pdf-
archive.com/2011/09/07/applications-of-the-co...](http://www.pdf-
archive.com/2011/09/07/applications-of-the-coanda-effect-ocr/#)

------
nyrath
The saucer looks suspiciously like "Project Silver Bug"

[http://www.foia.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-090218-169....](http://www.foia.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-090218-169.pdf)

It appeared in many of the popular magazines of the time
[http://blog.modernmechanix.com/issue/?magname=MechanixIllust...](http://blog.modernmechanix.com/issue/?magname=MechanixIllustrated&magdate=3-1956)

IIRC it was cancelled because it was incredibly unstable. Had a tendency to
spin like a top.

------
nkurz
I'm calling it as a fake. The drawings are in the too-good-to-be-true
category, and the Flying Saucer logo is hilarious. No updates since Sept 20,
and published with only 4 pages scanned? Is there any evidence for this other
than the Wordpress blog on which it appears?

Yes, I'll take small bets.

------
kfury
So with a top speed of 2,300-3,000 mph and a range of 1,000 miles, it could
sustain top speed for what, 20-25 minutes, assuming no fuel required to
achieve altitude or for landing?

It's hard to imagine the mission profile such a vehicle would fit.

...other than doing a short-range, high-speed insertion of a bomb delivered
from high altitude. In the 1950s. Oh, nevermind.

~~~
njharman
Interceptors (a type of craft made obsolete buy long range surface-to-air
missles)

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_163>

------
evantish
I don't understand where the Coanda effect is coming into play here. From the
first cutaway drawing (<http://goo.gl/QKOJy>), it appears that the outer disk
rotates independently of the main hub--possibly powered by the central
turbines forcing air outward to the wing? It also shows the air in-take
port(s) where you would expect outward thrusting air. And, it seems, like the
Coanda effect relies on a more spherical shape, as opposed to the very flat
sketch shown. How would that design produce the Coanda effect?

I am basing my questions on what I could glean from Wikipedia and a couple
Youtube videos:

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPUAq3QObp4>

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqxJe-RMUsI>

------
junto
It stands to reason that if I'd spent millions of public dollars on several
failed black funded secret military projects trying to get a flying saucer in
the air, then I'd also hide that fact from the public.

Logically, if they were successful, they would have been spun off into a
massive private corporate venture by now.

To be honest I'm surprised they declassified it. Does anyone know if the the
US military have a requirement to do so?

~~~
Dove
They do. The rules for classification of documents come from Executive Order
13526: <http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Executive_Order_13526#Part_1>

The upshot is that when a classified document is created, it comes with a
declassification date. They can be 10 to 25 years in the future. There are
also specific exemptions that come with 50 or even 75 year timers. After that
it's automatically declassified unless a review determines that it's still
sensitive.

So you can generally expect to see declassified documents on a 50-, 25-, and
10-year delay.

If you're worried about information being classified to prevent embarrassment,
though, that's illegal:

    
    
        Sec 1.7
    
            (a)    In no case shall information be classified, 
            continue to be maintained as classified, or fail to
            be declassified in order to:
    
               (1)    conceal violations of law, inefficiency, 
               or administrative error;
    
               (2)    prevent embarrassment to a person, 
               organization, or agency;
    
               (3)    restrain competition; or
    
               (4)    prevent or delay the release of 
               information that does not require protection in 
               the interest of the national security.
    

While that doesn't make it impossible that it happens, it does mean anyone
with access to the information has a duty to report that sort of fraud to
legal authorities if they encounter it.

~~~
pilom
There are 9 Exemptions to that Executive Order. These exemptions allow the
government to extend the declassification window indefinitely. Number 8 in
particular is very broad: (8) reveal information that would seriously impair
current national security emergency preparedness plans or reveal current
vulnerabilities of systems, installations, or infrastructures relating to the
national security;

I don't think it would apply to this saucer as it is not a "current system"
but it basically extends the time limit on any fielded system.

~~~
lectrick
Considering the numerous exemptions including the one for "national security,"
I wonder how long it extends the time limit on actual government evidence of
extraterrestrial UFO's.

/removes tinfoil hat

~~~
indiecore
I'd imagine that if there were any UFOs and they were classified it would
probably be similar to the "born secret" clause that nuclear weapons research
gets. So if you discovered anything it would retroactively be classified even
if you didn't know it at the time and you could be prosecuted (and worse) for
sharing it.

/removes Faraday suit (Tinfoil hats aren't effective anymore)

------
ChuckMcM
I really chuckled at this. It almost reads like a disinformation campaign.

~~~
marshray
I think the most likely explanation is some combination of a) the Pentagon
wanted to throw money at some Canadian aircraft firms, and b) they wanted some
authentic uselessness to leak to the Soviets.

------
joaorj
"Ultimately, though, the fact that we use fixed-wing aircraft today is a good
indicator that flying saucers, while cool, just aren’t that functional."

This means that the article's author is very narrow minded.

He's logic: We use fixed-wing aircraft today, so there is nothing we could
discover tomorrow that would make us shift from fixed-wing to disc shape.

Why do people think they know it all? Or why do people think that today's
knowledge will be true tomorrow?

Because this is the 16th century and we know the Geocentric model is true?

~~~
slavak
No, he's saying that if the idea was viable it would probably have come to
fruition within more than 60 years of research we apparently had time to do on
it.

~~~
joaorj
I disagree, it probably wouldn't, unless it was something very simple. 60
years is nothing. In the next 6000 years most things u can barely dream off
will be ancient history.

If in last 60 years we didn't discovered something it doesn't mean in the next
600 we won't discovery something 10 times as good as it.

If you are not the author you are as narrow minded as him.

------
tinfoilman
Yes and the US air force stole the designs from the Nazi's after ww2. There
are a number of images floating around that showed the nazi's were testing
designs with Saucers, that being said it is only really the tin foil hat crew
that would believe this crazyness.

[http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/3546515/Hitler...](http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/3546515/Hitler-
ordered-fleet-of-Nazi-flying-saucers-capable-of-destroying-London-and-New-
York.html)

<http://www.naziufos.com/>

[https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=nazi+Saucers&ie=utf-8&...](https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=nazi+Saucers&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-
GB:official&client=firefox-a)

yes yes some of these links are very questionable :/ But where the hell do you
find information about hese things. Personally I have always had the option
that there must be grains of truths in even the oddest conspiry theorys.

tl:dr = nazi's started hte reseach, before the end of WW2 they destoryed most
of it to stop the allies getting it. Allies saw it, tried to replicate it and
failed badly. The Real tinhatcrew believes that the nazi's that escaped took
this research to russia, how has also experimented with saucers.

if i remember correctly the usa could only get them to hover about 12ft off
the ground :/

~~~
runjake
You've got _some_ of your facts wrong.

The US didn't steal the designs from the Nazis. They offered the Nazi
researchers that were involved with these programs asylum if they'd help us
further that research. One such program is Project Paperclip. Later, many of
these scientists went on to work at Lockheed and other defense contractors.
They had expertise in rocketry, turbines, and airframes that we simply didn't
have at the time.

We still see their efforts in current generation aircraft (like the B-2, which
I worked on). They were respected. There are memorial photos of them in the
halls of places you will never see.

FYI: Those of us that worked on "fun stuff" used to get a kick out of the tin
foil crowd. _Do not_ rely on them for any remotely reliable information.
Instead, pay attention to Janes and other defense aviation journalists (the
DEW Line being one good example).

Edited for clarity,

~~~
tinfoilman
I dont mind people saying i got lots of facts wrong, but hte only one you
pointed out that the USA offered Asylum to the nazi rather than my statement
of "stole", maybe that was not the right word to use. US just threattened them
with POW camps if they did not do as told.

Dont get me wrong i will never know the truth but the Allies were chasing this
technically because the nazi's started researching in to it.

~~~
PotatoEngineer
Well, yes. When your enemies are working on something, you want to see if
their stuff is good. If it's good, then you use it yourself. This isn't
"stealing" as much as it's "I really don't want the other guy to have a
strategic advantage." If it doesn't work (apparently, this idea didn't), then
you drop it.

------
zackmorris
We desperately need some new ideas in aerospace. Here is one for an airship to
orbit, that would use EHD thrusters to get to orbit electrically, maybe with
energy beamed from the ground in microwaves:

<http://www.jpaerospace.com/>

Here is more about the EHD effect and lifters, including the TT Brown effect:

<http://jnaudin.free.fr/>

It's all real and has been replicated numerous times. I think it's a shame
that it's not covered in history books.

It would be straightforward to build a saucer or some other shape to get to
the edge of space and then use conventional rockets to get to orbital speed.
But research like that isn't funded for the same reason that green energy is
barely funded - it's not sexy. There's little profit in it. And people with
money just don't have the vision to pull it off. It breaks my heart that geeks
are getting people to click ads or working as quants on wall street instead of
picking the low lying fruit that could take us into the 21st century.

~~~
rory096
Stratolaunch (funded by Paul Allen & Burt Rutan) is partnering with SpaceX to
build an air-launched Falcon 9:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratolaunch_Systems>

Why would a saucer or other shape make more sense than proven fixed-wing
aircraft designs?

~~~
btyrad
Thanks for the link Rory, I had to go searching a little deeper to actually
find an image of the Falcon 9 Air. Pretty cool:
[http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/12/pictures-and-information-
fr...](http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/12/pictures-and-information-from.html)

------
CWIZO
I'm not a conspiracy theorist and this is slightly off topic, but please bear
with me. I'm just thinking out loud here.

One of the main counter points to 9/11 government conspiracy, is that a
operation of that scale just couldn't be keept a secret, since to many people
would be involved (and the government is all together useless). Yet here we
are with a freaking flying saucer that the government did make, and apparently
keept secret for over 50 years! I don't know how many people ware involved,
but I'd imagine that a lot. So ... I guess they can keep big secrets?

~~~
signalsignal
They didn't keep it secret for 50 years. It even has a wikipedia page:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Canada_VZ-9_Avrocar>

~~~
MBCook
That appears to be a different craft.

------
mainevent
Some further info on the VZ-9 Avrocar referenced in the article:
<http://www.zl2al.com/blog/the-avro-flying-saucer>

------
Gravityloss
What is new? What are the new sources? The Silver Bug (see this FOIA from
_1997_ : <http://www.project1947.com/fig/sb/sb_html.htm> ) and Avrocar have
been known about for years.

The headline seems like they just wanted clicks.

------
romaniv
Maybe it's just me, but I find it very cool that people actually looked at
alternative design of aircraft and stuff like Project Orion. Yes, it's a waste
of money. But at least it's a fairly creative waste of money that could have
produced some interesting technologies.

~~~
InclinedPlane
Project Orion was only a waste of money in the short-term. Long-term nuclear
pulse propulsion will probably be put to practical use. Potential Earth
impacting asteroids are fairly easy to protect against, you spend a lot of
effort cataloging them and then you find the ones that could hit Earth 50,
100, even a thousand years in the future and then you go and you nudge those
asteroids just enough to put them onto a non-impacting course.

But there are also long period comets that come in from the oort cloud. We may
never have the technology to fully catalog all those objects (out to thousands
of AU up to a light-year distant from the Sun). Which means that even our very
much more technologically advanced future selves will almost certainly still
be faced with the potential problem of having to intercept and divert an
Earth-impacting oort cloud comet that has wandered into the inner Solar
System. And to do so not with a century of lead time but with only a few
years. And, worse yet, to have to trudge out to the outer Solar System in the
first place just to have a chance to divert the thing in time.

This calls for a vehicle with a stupendous amount of thrust and delta-V
capability. Precisely what nuclear pulse propulsion excels at. More so, the
"pulse units" can do double duty by being used to divert the comet (using
thrust generated by ablation from stand-off explosions).

So ultimately research into nuclear pulse propulsion is likely to be key to
preventing the destruction of human civilization on Earth.

------
jared314
I wonder if you could reuse those old designs for drones.

------
nazgulnarsil
Roswell was huge disc shaped microphones listening for Soviet nuclear tests,
the whole thing was declassified long ago.

------
sprash
So it turns out that all the "UFO" sighting descriptions near Area 51 were
pretty accurate after all.

