

Clever Names Aren’t Always a Good Thing - phillco
http://usersinhell.com/clever-names/

======
swies
I'm a co-founder of Ninite. We hear this a lot, but I don't think it's a big
deal. Traffic has been growing well since we launched and we install 1,000,000
apps every week now.

The real problem is that there's not really a term for what we do. The key
part in all these stories is that even searching for us is hard. We're doing
something totally new so we might as well call it something totally new.

I'm also just aesthetically opposed to descriptive names.

The other part of this is that we made the product so lightweight that it goes
away after you use it. This is one of the reasons people love it, but it does
hurt retention.

I think we got this choice right though. It's way more important for people to
love your product than awkwardly hook them somehow. If they love the product
they'll get back to you.

That said, we have just released an auto-updater product that helps solve this
retention issue in a natural way. <https://ninite.com/updater/>

It will be interesting to see if that reduces these complaints about Ninite
being hard to find and remember.

~~~
phillco
I think the reason for your success is that Ninite is simply an excellent
product. If your product is truly great, it'll usually overcome problems in
naming, promotion, design, etc. (I remember there was a Joel on Software post
about how Naptster's UI design was terrible, but it didn't matter, because it
was Napster). But, we'll never know how successful Ninite _could_ have been
had it been easier to remember.

Of out curiosity, how did you come up with the name? EDIT: Ah.
[http://blog.ninite.com/post/620277259/how-ninite-was-
named-b...](http://blog.ninite.com/post/620277259/how-ninite-was-named-by-a-
computer-program)

~~~
swies
I bet we'd be exactly as successful with a better name. Are there examples of
products where an awesome name made them into successes? Or even had a
significant impact?

I'm sure you could tank a product with an offensive name or something that
required weird unicode characters. But I think it's only worth getting a
passing grade on the name and then going for an A+ on the product.

I guess the argument is that if you're right on the margin a better name could
tip you into winning. But I'd already consider a product a failure if it only
gets to that middle ground on its own. If the name makes a difference I'd say
you're not working on the right sort of problem.

~~~
name123
> Are there examples of products where an awesome name made them into
> successes? Or even had a significant impact?

YouTube. What differentiated YouTube from all the other video sharing sites? A
good name and logo.

~~~
beambot
I've got a hunch that there was a little more to it than just "a good name and
logo."

~~~
dilap
For one, they tried hard to support every possible video format for upload (as
opposed to, e.g., Google Video, which was much pickier about what it would
accept). In general, they nailed the "just make it work" factor.

(Subjectively, I remember YouTube being the first site that made me think,
"wow! video on the internet! it works!". Ironically enough, this is no longer
really true -- half the time YT starts buffering part way through the video
(sometimes never to go finish w/o a full page refresh), & the other half the
time you get a disruptive pop-up covering 20% of the screen. Bah.)

------
patio11
I've had they same issue with Ninite, actually.

I'm agnostic on whether it needs a different name. For a use-once-in-a-blue-
moon product which fixes an immediate need, it probably needs better SEO. The
simplest baby step is to write ten or twenty pages about pain points and how
Ninite fixes them.

~~~
swies
We could probably use more SEO, but we're actively fighting that once in a
blue moon use reputation.

We're working to position Ninite as a great general download site and our new
Ninite updater should help repeat use. Even with a single app, clicking next
next next through an installer is silly. Our paid users end up using Ninite
daily at their work already.

A big issue with SEO for us is that normal users don't even imagine that what
Ninite does is possible. I think some mix of education and oblique SEO could
help, but I think the newness of what we do complicates things a lot.

We aren't hurting for traffic, but it's primarily word of mouth and press so
far.

~~~
Poiesis
I see where you're going, but I'm not sure how successful you'll be.

Me? I'd go big with something memorable. Think something like Hudson's
approach. I was thinking a mascot with an easier name to remember: maybe a
cute dog (Lassie! Install!). A robot might make more sense given the theme.
Hey! Maybe a robot dog! I bet you could _own_ the search [robot dog installer]
even if you picked (another) unmemorable name for the dog.

------
Legion
I've suffered the exact same inability to remember the name Ninite.

After a while, the name _finally_ stuck, but I've had multiple "scramble
around on Google trying to find it again" incidents, as the author described.

Though recently, I got myself a Pinboard account, and now I ruthlessly tag and
bag any site/tool I might want to find again.

------
kristofferR
I remember reading somewhere that the name "Ninite" actually was generated by
a script which checked for available .com domains.

Found it: [http://blog.ninite.com/post/620277259/how-ninite-was-
named-b...](http://blog.ninite.com/post/620277259/how-ninite-was-named-by-a-
computer-program)

------
domador
It's funny, since Ninite ran a very elaborate process to find that very name:

[http://blog.ninite.com/post/620277259/how-ninite-was-
named-b...](http://blog.ninite.com/post/620277259/how-ninite-was-named-by-a-
computer-program)

To me it seems like nailing the perfect 2nd level .com domain isn't as
important as before. How often does the average user type a URL directly,
rather than typing key words into a Google search field?

------
loumf
I have this problem with nearly every startup mentioned on HN -- it's not that
some of them don't have good names -- there's just too many of them. Then,
when I have the actual problem that I saw the solution for, they have no SEO
yet, so I can't find them by description.

The best solution for this is what Hipmunk is doing -- no way I'd remember it
except -- they buy lots of remarketing style ads. I clicked through to the
site the first time I heard about it, and I get tons of ads for it all of the
time everywhere -- I remember it now.

~~~
kn0thing
Don't forget the mascot ;) we're the travel search that's chipmunk without the
"C."

~~~
GFischer
My mother actually asked on Facebook last whek whether someone remembered the
name of a flight search that had some cute mascot :P and yes, the 2nd reply
gave her the name "hipmunk" :) so the mascot does help with remembering.

(I'll update with the actual post, but Facebook is banned at work)

------
spoondan
Until I read the post about how the name was selected from a list of computer-
generated options, I (and apparently a few others here) thought it was a play
off of, "ni' night." This made sense to me: you start Ninite to do unattended
installs and then head off to bed.

Regardless, I think the name is actually pretty good. The issue for me is that
the site has so little branding and personality to it that nothing reinforces
the name. It's great that it gets you to the functionality right away, but I
think you can preserve that quality and add some branding elements that
reinforce the name.

Two ideas jump immediately to mind. The first is to play off, "ni' night," and
use a darkened children's room, the night sky, or a children's bedtime book
theme. You could add a dark background with a memorable graphical element such
as a poster bed or the moon. The second is to conceive of "Ninite" as some
sort of cool new chemical element -- a laboratory, the periodic table, or
chemical structure diagrams could serve as themes.

Regardless, I'd move "Featured In" to be a horizontal set of badges below the
screenshot and place a large logotype to the left of the screenshot with the
tagline, "The Easiest, Fastest Way to Update and Install Software."

~~~
swies
These are nice ideas, thanks for the feedback. The chemical element angle is
one I definitely thought about when we first looked at the name.

~~~
cpeterso
The "ni' night" imagery doesn't really work if the official pronunciation is
"NIN-ite", not "NI-nite".

I had assumed the name was "NINE-ite" until I read the Ninite blog:

[http://blog.ninite.com/post/620277259/how-ninite-was-
named-b...](http://blog.ninite.com/post/620277259/how-ninite-was-named-by-a-
computer-program)

------
rkalla
Adding to the thread, anyone that needs to deal with Windows XP or Windows
Vista installs, nLite[1] and vLite[2] are in this same vein, but help you
build custom installs. (Also forgotten this one about once a year).

[1] <http://www.nliteos.com/> [2] <http://www.vlite.net/>

------
domador
We geeks seem to have a fixation on clever names. I loved the name "Froogle",
but Google made a wise move in changing it to "Google Product Search" (much
friendlier to its target users).

Speaking of which, Google's own name was a particularly geeky choice. I wonder
if their users had a hard time remembering what it was or typing it in back in
Google's early days.

~~~
domador
I'm not immune to geeky name choices myself. I chose "Debonware" as a website
name a few years back. (It was a lame play on words on "debonair" and
"software".) I later abandoned it and switched to "Domador Software". That's
still a bit iffy, and not as memorable to English speakers as it would be to
Spanish speakers. However, I called my main product "Two-Click Reminder",
which is mostly descriptive, not very clever, yet should be much easier for
users to remember and be able to search for later on.

------
demian
If you can't remember the name, then it's not clever.

PS: I believe only "lifestyle" products can get away with that kind of fantasy
name. Things that impact and change significantly the way you do something
that you do often.

~~~
ideaoverload
'If you can't remember the name, then it's not clever.' Agreed 100%. Now it's
likely too late but wouldn't batchsetup.com be easier and not so generic
(edit:available for registration as time of posting)?

------
jacobbijani
That isn't a clever name. It's a bad name.

------
ihodes
At first, I agree. But then I look at my running programs: emacs, Steam,
Safari, Python, Clojure, along with the more descriptive Finder, iChat,
iTerm2, Mail. Somehow, I think the problem has more to do with how obtrusive
or how much interaction you have with a program rather than the name.

What would _you_ call Ninite?

~~~
inportb
Um, I'd call it a package manager.

~~~
gopi
> What would you call Ninite?

I would prefer Installware as its business friendly (installware.com is
available for $7500), not sure if it infringes the existing name InstallAware
though! ... If you cannot spend that much then TurboInstall is good too and
the domain turboinstall.com is available for $50

Also i would listen to patio's advice and focus on SEO. You can write atleast
30 quality articles in this area

------
JonnieCache
As the proprietor of <http://cleverna.me>, I can confirm this. No-one reads my
blog. At least, anyone who does isn't pulling down the analytics script.

~~~
Joakal
You should do better analytics; combine server access logs with analytics
script to determine your script and non-script audience.

------
Evgeny
There is no wikipedia article on the Baader-Meinhof phenomenon for some
reason.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baader-Meinhof_(disambiguation)>

Does anyone know enough on the subject to create one? I had to read up on it
here

[http://www.damninteresting.com/the-baader-meinhof-
phenomenon...](http://www.damninteresting.com/the-baader-meinhof-phenomenon/)

But not sure how reliable the article is.

------
ThomPete
The problem with regards to names is simply overrated. I personally have
000fff.org (Black&White) and I have no problem attracting visitors.

People click links, most only click one time in their life and never get back.
For those who end up using it they will take the time to either bookmark it
the browsers history will most often be enough. Would it be better with an
easy to decipher name? Sure. But it's not a law.

Good product is what matter.

------
Acorn
I always remember it as "night night".. "ni' night"

------
heyitsnick
For me it's sixth in the google search results for "automated setup tool." I
don't see the problem.

~~~
sorbus
The last paragraph of the post acknowledges that, and points out the problem:
"Nowadays, Ninite finally shows up on the front page on Google for “automated
software install”, so the problem’s fading away for them. But in your early
days of your project, you’re not going to have a good search engine ranking to
rely on, and you’ll want to keep as many of your early adopters as you can.
Name your software appropriately."

------
resnamen
I feel the same way about Web 2.0 names with trendy dropped vowels. Bnter, for
example - is it bantr? bntr? banter? These brands provide great fodder for
typosquatters, I'm sure.

------
delackner
Why not apply the lessons of the netflix prize to this problem? Create a
contest to produce a site that provides the most referrer traffic to your
product.

------
pyninja
I solve this problem by bookmarking the website and putting some keywords,
like "automated software install", in the description.

~~~
Silhouette
Which, of course, works better if the tool in question isn't usually used to
install useful things on a new machine that doesn't yet have useful things on
it -- browsers and bookmarks, for example. :-)

FWIW, I have also forgotten "Ninite" on more than one occasion, but I think
it's the only tool I routinely use where I have repeatedly forgotten the name.
Maybe there is something about that particular name that makes it hard to
remember, rather than a general problem with any unusual name?

~~~
pyninja
Which is why you should keep your bookmarks in the cloud :)

------
ohashi
I used Ninite today on a new computer, remembered it off the top of my head
without issue. Keep up the great work guys :)

------
killerswan
VLC is another tool I had trouble memorizing the name of. "VideoLAN? That must
be something different..."

~~~
minikomi
However, you can google video orange cone and find it

------
huckfinnaafb
downloadmultipleappsatonce.com is available. I think the larger issue here is
search engine visibility. Although I'm not sure what the big fuss is- he
described the site to someone and got a quick answer. Isn't how you usually
find lost stuff?

