
Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to Airports - emptybits
https://about.bgov.com/news/laptops-to-stay-in-bags-as-tsa-brings-new-technology-to-airports/
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btbuildem
It's fascinating how the security theatre has gotten so big that now it
basically just rolls forward under its own momentum. It's been around long
enough that people accept it as normal, it serves no other purpose than to
employ the unemployable and fill contractors' coffers, and it seems that no
entity is able to stop or dismantle it.

~~~
valleyjo
This is a pretty cynical viewpoint but I agree. It’s clear that TSA doesn’t do
much. Someone I know has acidentially brought a pocketknife through security
multiple times without it being found. They keep it in my backpack as a
regular item and just forgot to take it out.

~~~
monocasa
I've literally brought a pickaxe by accident.

But one time I was trying to bring a fish, and had a next to impossible time
trying to get them to agree that water was a "life sustaining liquid" as
defined by their exemptions on the 3oz rule wrt to fish.

~~~
AlexCoventry
What exactly are they trying to prevent with the liquid prohibition, anyway?

~~~
Moto7451
[https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-
advice/liquids...](https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-
advice/liquids-ban-on-flights-10th-anniversary-do-we-still-need-
it-a7181216.html)

A pretty good summary and a bonus foreshadowing of this article.

I have had a pretty good experience with the new scanners. I have global
entry/Precheck and one remaining headache with the old scanners was
remembering to take my double walked flask out and show the TSA that it was
empty by removing the cap. The new scanners can see that it’s empty from
inside my bag, which is very handy.

~~~
admax88q
I'm still fairly certain that the purpose of the liquid ban is purely to boost
sales of toiletries, especially in small "travel size" containers.

An entire new line of single use toiletry products was invented to meet this
regulation.

~~~
whamlastxmas
This is a pretty silly conspiracy. Do you think the manufacturers of those
products have some sort of lobbying arm to convince politicians to make
draconian TSA regulations?

The much more likely scenario is that the politcians, who sometimes have
ownership interest in the companies that get government contracts, want to be
able to sell new equipment. This is also supported by the constant equipment
updates we see at TSA lines.

~~~
admax88q
They could have just banned liquids all together, but they picked some magic
15 mL limit (or whatever it is) that no existing containers at the time fit
under.

> The much more likely scenario is...

Why do you phrase this as an either or situation? "My conspiracy is more
likely than your conspiracy" as if there can't be more than one conspiracy.

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simonsarris
About a year ago I was at an airport (Boston? New Jersey?) outbound that had a
sign or TV monitor saying "Great news, you no longer need to take your laptop
out of your bag!"

I read this sign as a TSA worker shouted every 30 seconds to the shuffling
line about how everyone needed to take out all laptops, "ipads", cameras, etc.

I wonder if it was a pilot program. Or more likely, just part of the
constantly shifting fabric of pointless theater. I fully expect these new
machines are primarily to sell machines, and not to fulfill any other purpose.

~~~
seandougall
Yeah, it's always up to the whims of the underpaid TSA agent who happens to be
there that day. Back when iPads were new, I got scolded for taking it out of
my bag, and scolded for leaving it in my bag, by agents at the same airport on
two trips a few weeks apart.

~~~
jcims
In the last 8 days:

CMH->MCO ‘remove your belts please’

MCO->SEA ‘keep your belts on’

SEA->CMH ‘i’d recommend you take your belt off’

~~~
jkqwzsoo
At one point, I was travelling with my dad when the "shoes off" policy was
relaxed (I think the shoes-off policy was relaxed a couple of weeks/months
after the shoe bomber plot, but I can't recall exactly when -- and then it was
put back permanently).

"Agent": Sir, I recommend you take your shoes off.

Dad: That's okay. I don't need to take my shoes off.

"Agent": Sir, I'm going to need you to take your shoes off NOW!

In addition to challenging the authority of the Memphis TSA agent, my dad is
half Japanese and looks quite a bit less white than I do.

~~~
smelendez
I've seen this sort of things in videos of police encounters, too. "I suggest
you do X" or "would you mind doing X" is some officers' way of being polite,
but it leads to dangerous misunderstandings. When people say no, taking the
statement literally, cops see them as trying to start a fight.

I'd love to see law enforcement trained in using basic, declarative sentences:
"Sir, regulation X.Y.Z says you have to take your shoes off. Please step
aside, do so, and rejoin the line."

~~~
rhizome
Don't say "no," don't be confrontational, don't say anything. They'll be
obvious about it if it's not optional.

~~~
dbdjfjrjvebd
It should not be the responsibility of individual members of the public not be
threatened or assaulted by the authorities! Such rapid escalation from
friendly to threatening should be a retraining issue.

------
lordleft
The moment I pull out my ipad and macbook and entrust the fate of around 3000
dollars worth of electronics to the competence and benevolence of government
officials who barely give a shit is my least favorite part of the travel
experience

~~~
finaliteration
I don’t know why, but for me it’s the shoes. My laptop bag makes it fairly
easy to take my laptop out and put it back in, but dealing with taking my
shoes on and off really fucking bugs me. It’s totally irrational, I know.

~~~
QualityReboot
I think your feeling is pretty rational. It's pretty annoying for no benefit.
I wish they also offered flights with lower security. I'm fine getting on a
plane if everyone went through a metal detector and kept their shoes on.

~~~
chii
> I'm fine getting on a plane if everyone went through a metal detector and
> kept their shoes on.

that's an interesting thought. May be if the price of a ticket could be made
cheaper by cutting out these TSA bullshit, the market could correct this
problem.

~~~
isostatic
Most frequent flyers would pay more to avoid the TSA

~~~
trillic
This is basically TSA Pre and Clear.

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godelski
But when are we going to have the real discussion about security theater?

~~~
ekianjo
Next, how about removing the ridiculous limitations on carrying a bottle of
water with you?

~~~
analog31
On a flight within China, my parents were simply required to take a sip from
their bottles.

~~~
chrischen
I don't get the logic in this. If your liquid is an explosive and you're
planning to commit suicide with it, why would a sip of it stop you?

~~~
analog31
I think they don't mind if you commit suicide, they'd just prefer you did it
before you got on the plane. The assumption is that explosives would be
disagreeable to drink.

Thinking about it more, it occurs to me that it could also just be security
theater.

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KerryJones
"While the CT pilot program didn’t show reduced wait times at participating
airports, the agency is expecting the technology will speed up lines as
passengers and staffers get used to the new processes. "

So, they just agreed to $97 million worth of new technology with no proven
benefit. Great.

~~~
ttsda
New technology with no proven benefit in the airport security context, which
is going to be applied to every passenger's luggage for no extra charge, and
will retain it's tremendous cost in the truly life-saving medical environment.

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bhawks
Sadly it isn't even faster and requires more staff to operate.

 _While the CT pilot program didn’t show reduced wait times at participating
airports, the agency is expecting the technology will speed up lines as
passengers and staffers get used to the new processes. Pekoske said he
expected more staff to be needed initially as the new machines are put in
place._

~~~
Someone1234
They're planning on using "AI" (Machine learning/Computer Vision) to slowly
automate identification. They already do this now, but are limited by the
quality of images.

> For example, TSA is working to develop new algorithms that use machine
> learning approaches to discriminate between threats and benign objects,
> making the screening process more effective and efficient. Machine learning
> also offers a way to screen for all prohibited items (explosives, firearms,
> sharp objects, etc.) automatically. It is anticipated that machine learning
> algorithms not only will improve security effectiveness but also will
> support automation in future security systems, thereby enhancing operation
> efficiency and improving passenger experience through increased throughput
> and decreased false alarm rates. More broadly, machine learning algorithms
> can be applied to assess security performance and provide system-level
> improvements beyond performance enhancements realized at individual
> screening operations.

[https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/TSA%20-...](https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/TSA%20-%20Advanced%20Integrated%20Passenger%20Screening%20Technologies.pdf)

It is worth noting the limitations of such techniques: Familiarity. Back when
Apple switched their Macbooks from HDDs to SSDs, a lot of early purchasers got
flagged at TSA because their laptop didn't match a profile (i.e. looking for a
spinning stack of platters).

With CT technology, we could see even more nuanced differences get flagged for
unusual.

~~~
MertsA
>With CT technology, we could see even more nuanced differences get flagged
for unusual.

Good, that's more data to learn from and that would only be a minor issue for
a short period of time for new devices. How often have you flown with
something that other passengers hadn't likely have flown numerous times with
before you? Even if the system picks out 0.1% of items for manual
classification and training, that's still mountains and mountains of data for
it to learn from and that would only take a tiny fraction of the time for
airport security to identify compared to what they deal with now.

~~~
Scoundreller
They’ll just add it to your history of items to your permanent record.

Just don’t get consistent with luggage and suddenly go unique!

The real fun starts when they create a social graph of people carrying similar
things.

For your safety of course.

It probably could feed into an interesting friend-making system if they
assigned seats based on the info.

~~~
MertsA
They could do that now with the current x ray images if they wanted to. Also
by classification I'm just referring to classifying in broad categories such
as benign, weapon, drugs, bomb, etc. Right now when you go through security
the images aren't tied directly to the owner, just a location and a time.
Unless the scanner gets tied to e.g. scanning your boarding pass when putting
a bin through that doesn't give you a way to tie that information to an
individual. Additional cameras with some AI to track people from the boarding
pass scan through the checkpoint would allow for what you're talking about but
all of that is orthogonal to what specific type of scanner is being used.

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sulami
We’ve had this (or something similar) at Amsterdam Schiphol for a while now.
With the scanners here, everything stays in the bag, electronics and liquids.
The time savings are quite noticeable, because people are so slow at taking
apart their baggage. Now they just throw on their bag, take off their coat,
and maybe their boots, and they’re done, easily saving 1/3 of the time spent
at other airport security lines.

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umanwizard
Wow new technology? What now-lost mysterious technology was it that allowed us
to get along fine without taking our laptops out of our bags 20 years ago?

~~~
nine_k
The lack of fear?

Not in passengers but in the officials: what if somebody sneaks something in,
and blows a plane? To alleviate that, a "we are doing all we can" CYA strategy
should be in place.

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randomacct3847
Global entry/TSA pre-check is the best $100 you can spend (or not since the
application fee is covered by a lot of premium credit cards)

Keep shoes, keep laptop in bag, keep jacket on, way shorter line...I’m
simulateously happy that not everyone is doing it and dumbfounded why anyone
who travels more than a few times a year wouldn’t have it by now.

~~~
opportune
I don't buy precheck out of principal. You shouldn't have to pay extra for a
less invasive security experience

~~~
TallGuyShort
I used to feel the same way. I shouldn't have to, but if the choice is paying
or getting felt up, I pay. Me not paying won't stop the feeling up anyway.

~~~
hopler
Getting felt up is the only part I enjoy.

~~~
leesalminen
Whenever I (or whoever I’m traveling with) gets selected for the full pat down
I always make a comment about usually getting charged extra for this service
or some other equally stupid joke.

They always end the pat down early and move on to the next person.

------
narrator
Just get TSA pre-check. It's so freaking easy and it makes airport security
checkpoints not a big deal at all.

~~~
T-hawk
I refuse to pay TSA for "solving" a problem that they created.

More customers paying for pre-check incentivizes TSA to make the regular
experience comparatively _worse_.

~~~
bpanon
You either pay with time or money.

~~~
throwaway2048
Pay for what exactly?

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djhworld
Pretty sure they had this at McCarren when I was there late last year, just
had to dump my bag in the tray and walk through the metal detector (didn't
even need to take my shoes off - although they had a sniffer dog earlier in
the line)

Seemed to work OK, well, until my bag got pushed into the "additional
screening" line and had to open it up for the guy to look at

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clamprecht
But now TSA has started asking me to remove any food items from my bags for
the scanner. Does anyone know why?

~~~
SallySwanSmith
Explosives usually look similar to organic matter on xrays

~~~
eddiezane
Can confirm.

I often travel with a big Ziploc bag of stickers (life of a Developer
Evangelist). Have started removing it from my bag for security because it
usually triggers a search.

~~~
scarcely
Why not stick them on your back and just peel one off when you need to give
one off?

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ttsda
It's revolting how much money will be spent by the American government on
mandatory luggage CT scans, especially considering the cost such scans have in
the medical context where lives are truly at stake...

~~~
mattkrause
CT scans are actually fairly cheap, as far as medicinal imaging goes, unless
you need to acquire a ton of slices really quickly (e.g., to image the heart).
The 256 slice ones can run into the millions, but you can get a used 8 slice
machine for ~five figures, and there aren’t a lot of consumables.

An MRI machine will easily run into the millions ($4M or so for a 3T, much
more for the newer high field ones), and you need a steady supply of cryogens
to keep the magnet cold.

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yesimahuman
Sounds like this will be less damaging for photographic film? Not that the
carry on x-ray scanners were bad in the first place but the less damage
potential the better.

~~~
rgbrenner
CT is a more powerful xray with multiple images taken at different angles.

If xray is damaging, this will be more damaging.

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duxup
I was always amazed how I had to take my laptop out ... but I carried cameras,
gaming devices, all sorts of other electronics in bags and nobody cared.

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alifaziz
I remember when I was in Changi Terminal 4 airport in Singapore few months
back I do not need to take out my laptop from the scanner.

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gumby
A dowsing rod would work as well except it would be hard to justify the fat
contracts awarded to friends and former colleagues.

~~~
provolone
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADE_651](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADE_651)

'Some of the devices came with "detector cards" which were programmed, the
fraudsters claimed, to detect everything from explosives, to human beings and
dollar bills through concrete, water and from great distances'

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RickJWagner
Yesssssssss! Technology can be awesome.

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ams6110
CT scanners? Can I get a lead apron to wear in the screening area please?

~~~
pdonis
They're shielded. And the current machines also use X-rays; there's no change
to the kind of radiation used.

~~~
ars
But the direction changes. Current machines aim downward. The new ones will
spin, and fire in all directions.

And there is more radiation in total since now there's there are multiple
images, while before it was just a single one per bag.

I'd also be concerned about backscatter going out the sides, since there is
more radiation in total.

All that said, the shielding should take care of it.

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smacktoward
And it only took 17 years for them to figure out a way to make it happen! Who
says America can’t get things done anymore.

