
Russia 'successfully tests' its unplugged internet - alexanderdmitri
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-50902496
======
azangru
> Details of what the test involved were vague

So we don’t know what exactly they tested. Why is this news, let alone an
international one?

Also, as far as I understand, what the Russians were officially saying was
that they were developing fallback systems for the event if, in another bout
of sanctions, Russia gets disconnected from the global internet. Which, given
their standing with the international community, may be a reasonable thing to
do. But the journalists present this story as Russia's voluntary step towards
isolating itself from the global internet. I am not sure why.

~~~
everdev
> the journalists present this story as Russia's voluntary step towards
> isolating itself from the global internet. I am not sure why.

Some potential benefits to Russia:

1\. Thwart cyber attacks

2\. Control information

3\. Halt foreign online payments

There are of course downsides, but I think the original premise was security
in the event of war / aggression.

~~~
3pt14159
> 1\. Thwart cyber attacks

By whom? State actors can just launch attacks from computers that have both a
Russian internet link and a link up to a internet providing satellite, no?

~~~
everdev
No security is full proof, but they call it "hardening the target" when you
reduce your attack surface.

~~~
Nasrudith
Of course security is an obvious pretense for control.

The way you actually reduce attack surface is to take the critical pieces off
of it and minimize the paths to be watched, not the whole system. That would
be like ensuring it is possible to close off all of the highways into
Washington DC to response time for the three federal branches. If it was
actually that damn important they would make and use secure tunnels. The only
added benefit is an excuse to shut out protesters.

Not to mention mere independence isn't everything for system functionalities.
Going to muscle powered factories to remove logistical dependence on power
would be an obviously stupid move for example because the performance is so
much worse. It is "selling ceramic knives that cannot be sharpened as never
needing it" marketing deception of trying to cast a flaw as a strength.

~~~
microcolonel
> _Of course security is an obvious pretense for control._

Russia doesn't need pretense for control.

------
altmind
Rarely mentioned, but Russia also tested the security of their (mobile signal
networks) SS7 and Diameter systems Dec 16-17.

It never fails to amaze me how little attention is paid to these systems that
can track, intercept and hijack the comms of mobile phone users of any
country, internationally.

~~~
baybal2
Maybe because it is what they themselves were successful in pwning in the
West?

It is a long running rumor in Russian internet that Russian spies managed to
tap UK politician phones with fake roaming requests in 2016.

~~~
vbezhenar
The question is, why UK politicians didn't use encryption which is available
to ordinary people? Like Signal or even Whatsapp.

~~~
baybal2
Using encrypted VOIP will not do anything about SS7 hacks, as it will be your
voice calls and SMSes that get rerouted, and remotely MIMed

~~~
mycall
You did answer, MITM doesn't work for Signal and WhatsApp, correct?

~~~
int_19h
You could MITM Signal if you control the cell towers on either end. It would
be visible, because the security number would change. But in my experience
helping people set it up, very few users understand what those numbers are
for, and what it means when they change. Most just mark them as verified
immediately.

------
mrtksn
How much Facebook and other tech giants will be affected by a fragmented
internet? Is FB still a $600B company if they are prevalent only in the USA,
UK and Canada?

I wonder if this trend of closed borders limited information circulation could
lead to the diminishing of companies that depend on the network effect and
rise of the companies with hard tech.

~~~
Nasrudith
I suspect yes to the first if widespread enough in GDP (frankly in the grand
scheme of things they matter less than Italy) and a hard no to the second.

There is no reason to think that "hard tech" (assuming you mean more physical
hardware) would benefit as a field they aren't really competitors even in
terms of sucking up talent. Isolation wouldn't give them an edge there.

Second as fragments would call for reinventing the wheel locally or possibly
copying it to serve an insular market. We have already seen this with Cuban
mechanics. They didn't become "the Detroit of the third world" producing
cheaper cars for other nations, or even a divergent tech path for transit that
was better in some way. They just essentially practiced at the art of antique
automobile necromancy. Small players with adjacent bigger markets can innovate
and scale up. Small players in small markets stagnate. The "small and local
serves you better" is more meme than fact. People really want their parochial
corner to be just as good but it hasn't worked out that way and stays small
for several good reasons, and "choice" isn't one of them.

------
ivhilaire
Russia is a kleptocracy and all these 'tests' are just another way to steal
money. Kleptocratic billionaires can not keep being billionaires without such
'projects'.

~~~
8bitsrule
Did you ever wonder where those former Soviet citizens - now oligarchs -
picked up their capitalist skills?

~~~
ivhilaire
They didn't. No selling and multiplying. Only taking and dividing.

------
duelingjello
Rising balkanization, tariff wars, sanctions, isolationism and nationalism
sets the table for future ”dark ages”-like declines and world wars. Sanctions,
isolation and tariffs, each like eye-for-an-eye, makes the whole world
“blind.” Overall, it’s another nail in the coffin of the mythology of
perpetual progress, showcasing eras of decay, retreat, chaos, division and
regression. Some points of the existing order need to be adjusted before
corruption, greed, hate and narcissism scatter us like dust into the wind.

------
mirimir
> "Increasingly, authoritarian countries which want to control what citizens
> see are looking at what Iran and China have already done.

The US does the same. Indeed, the US takes down stuff globally, often by
pwning a site's primary DNS servers.

But of course, they claim that they are only taking down "illegal" sites. But
there's rarely (if ever) any sort of due process.

Edit: This is a well known fact. The FBI even brags about it, from time to
time. But if any y'all want to claim that it's not, or is somehow
distinguishable, please do share.

Edit: For example, the FBI took down a news site, which was arguably protected
by the Constitution:

[https://www.deepdotweb.com/](https://www.deepdotweb.com/)

... and you can see it through early 2019 here:

[https://web.archive.org/web/*/https://deepdotweb.com](https://web.archive.org/web/*/https://deepdotweb.com)

------
sys_64738
If they did keep Russian users inside then would they allow external user in
also? I'd be concerned we'd be missing out on a lot of Russian content.

~~~
aasasd
The government here is less bothered by Russians reading something foreign
than by them writing something not too happy. Mostly in Russian language, but
whatever.

You missing out on some content is collateral damage, and that's not the
government's problem. After all, there's government-approved content, and that
should be enough.

------
magwa101
Starlink will be a total game changer when it goes global.

~~~
petethepig
I don't know about that. Nothing stops them from banning the sales of the
ground station equipment.

~~~
Avamander
It's probably not that difficult to manufacture and there will be a black
market for the tech.

~~~
romwell
The situation when the Internet is a black market thing is a huge victory for
the Russian authoritarian state.

They can afford to have 15% of the population with access to information and
what not on the black market. The course of the country will be dictated by
the beliefs of the other 85%, which will all buy into the 1000s of
kaleidoscopic realities readily manufactured by Surkov & Co, and will all
support every single action of the government.

------
madiathomas
It was the next logical step for Russia after they built their own GPS and
their alternative to the World Bank, the BRICS bank. Their biggest enemy has
proven that they cannot be trusted and they are the ones who invented the
Internet. Anytime they have a disagreement with a nation, they take their ball
and go home. Like what they were doing with Huawei. I won't be surprised if
China and India are working on the same kind of project.

This world needs an alternative to anything built by the USA. That way
superpowers will have to go to the negotiation table on an equal footing. We
don't want one bully. We need at least 5 bullies.

~~~
rb808
Of course Russia has had its own version of GPS for decades. Those ICBMs need
some way to find their destination.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GLONASS](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GLONASS)

World Bank has never been important to Russia. You're right the US is
dominating financial world right now which most of the world hates and its
inevitable for something else to compete.

~~~
Nasrudith
Really the world bank's role is to be the scapegoat for fiscal misrule as the
lender of last resort. They may or may not be "fair" (a subjective standard)
and there are legitimate things to disagree with such as assignment of debts
from previous regimes but crucially they lack the power to do much. They are
judges without ballifs or executioners. They wield no force but saying no to
loans and telling others what they think.

If the countries could sustain themselves without credit from them then they
have no need to be involved. The worst is essentially snarky comments pointing
out that the current management goes against orthodoxy/still hasn't paid them
back from 1977. If the country succeeds despite going against their judgement
then they just look silly until either the world bank revises their
conventional wisdom or they get to say "told ya so!" when the shoe drops.

Austerity may do worse than an open credit pipeline in terms of growth and
human impact but there are no guarantees that the creditor wouldn't mess that
up as well and solvency is required to function in their role. While nice they
literally can't be an infinite credit that never needs paid back fountain.

------
Merrill
How do they handle corporate intranets?

Normally I'd expect Globocorp to configure its intranet with, for example, a
separate AS each for Germany and Russia. But the AS in Germany may be
connected to the Russia AS via a 155 Mb/s leased line from Berlin to St
Petersburg with BGP routers. The German AS may also connect via a corporate
firewall to a public ISP in Germany, and the Russian AS to a public ISP in
Russia.

It is theoretically possible, therefore for a user on a public ISP to connect
via Globocorp's intranet to a public ISP web site in Germany.

Is there some technical or administrative requirement to prevent transit via
corporate intranets?

~~~
dullgiulio
I guess they would simply cut it in half by disconnecting the Russian ISP to
the German one. Even VPNs stop being useful if all connections to the outside
are severed.

~~~
Merrill
Disconnecting the Russian ISP to the German one doesn't disconnect the leased
line internal to Globocorps intranet which connects the Gobalcorp intranets in
Russia and Germany.

------
omneity
What infrastructure needs to be replicated "locally" for a country to unplug
itself yet still have a functioning Internet simulacrum?

~~~
Scarbutt
Nothing that they don't already have in place with some configuration
adjustments. The Internet is just a lot of interconnected routers.

~~~
omneity
I'm thinking BGP, DNS, IP subnets allocations and all the low level stuff.
Also SSL authorities etc.

I'm sure there's a lot of stuff you'd need to roll, I bet it would make for an
interesting article :D

~~~
branzo
+1!

------
Jyaif
I believe Eric Schmidt was the first to predict this:
[https://www.businessinsider.fr/us/eric-schmidt-internet-
will...](https://www.businessinsider.fr/us/eric-schmidt-internet-will-split-
in-two-2028-china-2018-9)

------
out_of_protocol
No actual unplugging this time

~~~
SiempreViernes
Very unclear what they actually did at all.

------
arkanciscan
If Russia gets cut off from the rest of the Internet the camgirl site industry
may never recover!

------
tus88
> "Increasingly, authoritarian countries which want to control what citizens
> see are looking at what Iran and China have already done.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_the_Uni...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_the_United_Kingdom)

------
shellehs
Russia unplugged the internet and took a look at China.

------
c-smile
Not sure why is this such a big deal.

I can imagine that US will also disconnect itself if hostile access to
critical infrastructure is at stake.

China is permanently semi-connected for that matter.

~~~
pergadad
But it's not about critical infrastructure, it's about control over
information coming in and going out.

------
bookofjoe
Mr. Lee's Greater Hong Kong IRL

------
0x38B
Commentary about the exercises from Russian Telegram channel ЗаТелеком
(Following Telecom) [1]. Found through link on Meduza.io

Google Translate with some manual editing for clarity by me.

1: [https://t.me/zatelecom](https://t.me/zatelecom)

# 1: [https://t.me/zatelecom/13046](https://t.me/zatelecom/13046)

"I got and decoded some materials from today's meeting of the Ministry of
Digital Affairs on the exercises. Something tells me either a closed regime or
not closed regime will be announced, but we won’t be able to get access either
way. So, feed on some rumors. Let it be rumors from me. After [sunglasses] are
my additions, probably mocking, will always follow. Based on what I heard and
the slides, I can draw two additional conclusions:

the Internet is impossible to understand and nobody understands what needs
testing;

️ THEY'RE CONFUSING the law “on sustainable Runet” and the law “on critical
objects of information infrastructure”. These are different laws, each living
in its own sandbox, this confusion has been going on since the very beginning
of the draft law “on a stable Runet”

️️️ Some slides (for some reason labeled Positive Technologies):

⏰ On December 16 and 17, exercise scenarios were worked out to ensure the
stability and integrity of mobile radiotelephone communications for the SS7
and Diameter protocols

All four federal mobile operators participated in the exercises. As part of
the exercises, 18 attack scenarios were worked out for each operator - 12
through signal networks 2/3 of the SS7 generation and 6 through signal
networks Diameter

️ The attacker was able to successfully carry out 62.5% of attacks through SS7
and 50% through DIameter The average attack detection time was about 2-3
minutes

During the exercise, all scenarios were completed in full. Testing out the
scenarios for each operator was about 6 hours. On average, working out one
scenario took about 20 minutes. [sunglasses] Grains of corn fried by each
curator were eaten about 800 grams each. Drunk 24 liters of coffee. 46.5 kg of
cookies consumed

LEARNING RECOMMENDATIONS

To increase the effectiveness of warning, detecting and blocking attacks
through signaling networks on the side of the telecom operator, it is
necessary to provide:

1️⃣ Attack detection tools through the SS7 and Diameter signaling networks,
which will allow timely detection of attacks on individual mobile subscribers
and the operator’s infrastructure

2️⃣ Telecommunication equipment settings that prohibit signaling messages that
are not used to establish communications between operators, but can be used to
conduct attacks on networks of telecom operators

3️⃣ Procedures and security tools that allow you to quickly block ataui
through signal networks

4️⃣ Periodic external signaling network security audits

5️⃣ Leave the market if points 1-4 were as unexpected for the operator as for
representatives of the Ministry of Digital

CONCLUSIONS ON THE RESULTS OF THE EXERCISES

In the Russian Federation, it is necessary to create a regulatory framework
and a unified system for collecting and analytically processing information
about attacks through signaling networks on the infrastructure and subscribers
of mobile telecom operators, as well as connecting it to the State SOPKA [2/3
slide picture from 4 positions OPERATORS -> UNIFIED SYSTEM -> GASOPOK]

[sunglasses] Also in the Russian Federation, it is necessary to create a
regulatory framework, to create a unified system for collecting and
analytically processing information about attacks on WordPress and PHPNuke, as
well as connecting it to GosSOPKA

[sunglasses] Also in the Russian Federation, it is necessary to create a
regulatory framework to create a unified system for collecting and analytical
processing of information about attacks on active switches, as well as
connecting it to the State SOPKA

[sunglasses] Also in the Russian Federation, it is necessary to create a
regulatory framework, to create a unified system for collecting and analytical
processing of information about viruses sent to e-mail boxes, as well as
connecting it to GosSOPKA"

# 2: [https://t.me/zatelecom/13053](https://t.me/zatelecom/13053)

"About yesterday's "exercises." Again. Well, because in the morning the calls
started again and the cart was breaking. Let me write here once, so I don't
have to get up six times.

1\. These were no "exercises." The circus that Sokolov arranged in the
Ministry of Socks [Ministry of Digital Development, Communications and Mass
Media of the Russian Federation ~Editor] is at most an "interagency meeting."
Any military man will tell you that "Exercises are combat training activities,
where the troops solve tasks on the ground in conditions that are closest to
combat, large-scale comprehensive training operations."

And in the ministry they held a MEETING. That's all.

2\. Hysterical squirrels rush about the Internet with stories that "everything
broke !!! aaaa !!!". Say hello to them. In fact, of course, the two dozen
morons sitting in the office could not break anything. First of all, who would
let them, the morons, onto real networks?

3\. The proof that all those who gathered for the “exercises” are first-class
morons was that when they were talking nonsense about the “18 attack
scenarios”, nobody laughed. Everyone sat with serious faces and nodded their
heads.

I'll explain: "attacks through the SS-7 protocol" is about telephony. Not
about the Internet. SS-7 (aka OKS-7) is, roughly speaking, the protocol by
which signaling data for dialing is transmitted. The fact that we have not
heard for a hundred thousand years that someone “broke the phone number” tells
us that the telephone operators are working and the holes (yes, there were
holes) were closed. Well, the figure of 62.5% of successful attacks, firstly,
tells us that in two-thirds of the calls we could not get through, and
secondly - how, tell me, from 12 attacks the figure could be 62.5%? ? Is this
a successful attack in 7.5 cases out of 12?

Further, Diameter protocol is likewise not related to the Internet. Google
what Diameter is already. Hint: This is a service authorization-
authentication-accounting protocol that is used in IMS networks. This applies
to mobile communications and IP telephony. To IP-telephony, in short. But not
to the internet. Well, half of the successful attacks tell us that these
numbers were obtained "at a training ground", which was set up by bungling
dumbasses, or simply thought up.

4\. I want to remind you that there is no "sovereign runet". It was not built.
And the forecast for the "construction" of this crap is 5 years, minimum.
Look: for the first year they will only work on a sub-law and write a
technical assignment. Then for two more years they will work out the
engineering solution. Which will become obsolete exactly at the beginning of
implementation. And then they will implement it for another three years -
Rostelecom only has seven macro-regions and 79 branches. Just to bring
equipment to everyone is already an impossible task for assholes from the
offices. And it, equipment, also needs to be installed, commissioning,
acceptance, testing, signing of acts ... Well, trust me - RTK can delay
projects for decades ... I can say exactly the same thing about other "very
large operators" . And it didn’t get into a fucking little thing - imagine a
box designed by the morons from the offices.

Therefore, I repeat, any failures on the networks can be justified by
anything, but not by “sovereign runet”.

Enough hysteria!"

~~~
tandr
I believe in recommendations number 5 ("Leave the market...") is also marked
as [sunglasses], which makes it about equivalent to /s here.

~~~
0x38B
Good point, I probably should have just linked to a gist - some of the
formatting and emoji didn't transfer.

------
woodandsteel
For years Putin's defenders here at HN would talk about the great benefits he
was bringing the country. Interesting how in the last year or so they have
pretty much given up pushing that idea.

------
ivrrimum
I think this is more to do with Russian tech sector trying to push their
products, instead of Western ones.

Uber - Yandex(russian alternative) etc.

------
buboard
Seeing how the globalnet has become a front for globalized surveillance,
disconnected subnets are actually a welcome development.

~~~
vbezhenar
They are a welcome development for governments who'll be able to execute
tighter control. I don't think that they're a welcome development for
citizens, even for those who do not really care about politics. Want to play
World of Warcraft today like you always did? Too bad, servers are in France.
Want to learn some web development? Too bad, MDN is not mirrored.

~~~
DaiPlusPlus
I’m hoping Elon’s StarLink takes off.

~~~
duhast
StarLink will be blocked in countries like China or Russia or they will have
to follow their law.

Thought experiment: Can you imagine Russian satcom provider providing Internet
service to US based customers in violation of the US law?

Rarely is technology a sole answer to social or political problem.

------
terrycody
China:naive boy

~~~
dang
Please don't post unsubstantive comments here.

