
Ask HN: Why does no one talk about working or interviewing for Apple? - mmatey
I find it interesting that people here talk about the interview process and working at companies such as Google and Microsoft, but I almost never hear about Apple.<p>Why is this? Is it the iPhone/Android debate? Or is it something else?
======
jaysonelliot
I interviewed with Apple last year, and I wasn't asked to sign an NDA. That
said, I didn't actually see anything that would have required one.

I didn't apply to Apple - they found me. A year later, I'm still not sure how
that happened, since I don't know anyone there. It could have been through a
public talk about user experience that I gave (the position was for UX
director of the Apple web site), it might have been through something I wrote,
or it could have been as mundane as a LinkedIn search.

I went through a series of phone interviews in the usual ascending order.
Everyone I spoke with was very sincere and conversational, there were no MS or
Google-style "tests" to go through. We looked at work I'd done, I talked about
my approach to UX, we got to know one another a bit.

Eventually, they flew me out to Cupertino (I live in NYC), and put me up at a
nice hotel near the Apple campus. I spent a full day in an interview room,
meeting various members of the team I would be working with, both above and
below the position I was being considered for.

The only time we left the conference room where the interviews were happening
was to take a stroll over to the cafe for lunch. I went with most of the team,
and we talked about day to day life at Apple, what it's like working with
tight security, the fancy Apple buses that take employees from SF and the East
Bay to work, people's personal projects and hobbies, etc.

I got some insight into the way Apple works, and predictably, there was none
of the corporate silliness that you'd find in a less confident company, none
of the buzzwords or process for the sake of process. I could see that they all
worked incredibly hard, but the fulfillment on everyone's faces made me want
very much to be a part of it.

In the end, I didn't get the job - they ended up either not filling the
position at all, changing their team structure, I'm not sure - they left me
feeling very good about myself and the experience, probably the best way that
I've ever not gotten a job.

The main impression I was left with was that I had just wandered back to a
pre-dot com era where people worked incredibly hard to make great things,
rather than to maximize profits or burn towards an IPO or whatever. It was one
of the most human job interviews I'd ever been through.

~~~
bryanallen22
My experiences were similar. I had several interviews with Apple:

1) Several phone interviews for an internship. They don't do fly outs for
internships, if I remember correctly. I never finished this process because I
took another position before the interviews were complete.

2) Phone interviews and fly out for a position about 1 year ago. The team had
good things to say about me, but it wasn't a good fit for either myself or
that team. I was referred to another part of Apple, where I started over.

3) Phone interviews and fly out for a different position just one week after
#2. In a spat of horrible luck, I lost my contact lens at the hotel that
morning. I decided that a makeshift eyepatch wouldn't look good, but having
only 1 contact lens in gave me a splitting headache. As I struggled more than
I should have, I felt them grow more cold. I was kindly told that the
interviews were over about 3/4 of the way through.

Similar to jaysonelliot, I didn't sign an NDA and didn't leave the interview
room except for lunch.

A few notable things about my interviews:

I was asked to code over the phone. That's much harder than white board
coding, in my opinion. It was something fairly easy, though (atoi in c, or
something like that).

I felt like I was judged on my Apple culture. When I revealed that I didn't
know Objective C, that didn't seem to matter to much, but when I revealed that
I didn't own an iPhone or a Mac, I did feel that my answers weren't what they
were hoping.

The questions were very broad. Because I come from both a hardware and a
software background, I was asked about everything from basic power dissipation
to more traditional CS topics.

Honestly, I felt a much more happy and welcome atmosphere at Microsoft, which
surprised me. It was kind of the opposite of the consumer perspectives of
those companies.

~~~
cosbynator
I had an on-campus interview for an internship years ago that contrasts this a
bit. It was about 30 minutes and there was no second interview. There were
absolutely no technical questions. I was asked about whether I had experience
with Apple products and development and the interviewer wasn't too offended
when I said no. Absolutely no coding. The interviewer didn't seem to really
care about the job description that was posted.

I was asked about some problem solving I had to do at a previous internship
and I talked about how setjmp/longjmp saved my skin once. The interviewer
seemed more pleased in the fact that I was excited about the solution than the
fact that I had one.

Unlike you, I found it refreshing. I got the impression that they cared more
about passion than obscure technical answers. In the end, I took another offer
instead but it was a difficult decision to make.

------
KuraFire
For the people working there, talking about it on a public forum is cause
enough to get fired, and hiding behind an online alias is not going to give
you enough protection. Apple is full of really smart people, who like their
jobs well enough not to risk losing them so casually and for such little
incentive.

As for the process of interviewing: for a lot of the more interesting jobs at
Apple, interviewing involves signing an NDA. Hence, whether or not they end up
getting hired, they’re contractually prevented from talking about the
interview process.

Having worked there in the past myself but not anymore, I can speak only
_somewhat_ freely about it all. The interview process can be intense, taking
up to several weeks and with a minimum of 4 interviews, but usually 7 or 8.
Often, for practicality reasons (travel to Cupertino), all those interviews
are done in a single day, and if it's more than 8 it'll be done across two+
days. As for the specifics of an average interview itself, I can’t really say
anything.

And as for working there, my own experience was largely fantastic, but it
wasn't for me in the end. Apple's campus is by far the nicest I've seen of all
the major companies (and I've seen all the ones in Silicon Valley), and though
there is always a constant pressure, stress and a major (and insane) deadline
to make, working there is incredibly satisfying. Unless, perhaps, you're at
MobileMe. But maybe that was just me.

~~~
krschultz
You can interview for all kinds of positions involving classified weapons and
intelligence without signing an NDA _, but Apple requires you to sign one?
What could possibly be so special about their interview process?

I guess they're worried about people gaming the system, but what stops someone
from breaking the NDA to one individual going in for the interview and not
online? Wouldn't that give the one individual a huge advantage?

_(Though I got fingerprinted and background checked before I could even sit
down for those interviews)

~~~
KuraFire
As I said below, it's about the secrecy of the products & plans they're
working on. Keeping those secrets is worth anywhere between $200 and $300
million of free advertisement a year (a conservative estimate, these days), so
it shouldn’t really be such a shock they’d like to keep secret things secret.

------
Bud
I interviewed for Apple earlier this month. I didn't get the position, but I
really enjoyed the challenging interview process and meeting the 7 people who
interviewed me.

I had a phone interview with a manager, and then a three-hour process at Apple
HQ in which I was interviewed by three pairs of employees from the team I was
applying to work with. I was very impressed that they devoted so much employee
time to talking with me. They were very friendly people, and asked an
interesting variety of questions, ranging from puzzles to how I'd handle
various theoretical work scenarios to technical questions of various kinds.

The gent who recommended me told me that he had to apply six times before
getting hired, so I'm planning to keep applying, for other positions.

There. Now someone has posted about interviewing at Apple. Happy? :)

------
cosmicray
There were 3 basic periods at Apple: the beginnings (aka Steve I), the Dark
Ages (roughly '85-'97), and Steve Returns.

During the Dark Ages, Apple leaked internal information _badly_. One of the
first things that Steve did upon return was try to clamp down (and fire people
if necessary). He even had one of those WW-II posters "Loose lips sink ships"
tacked up. And there is a certain truth to that. Competition has heated up
(esp in the mobile space). Anyone and everyone would love to know what Apple
is working on now, and what they will announce next month. Witness the
kerkuffle with gawker over the iphone 4 engineering test device.

So people at Apple learn to say nothing, or move on down the road.

~~~
leif
I think the period names you are looking for are "A New Hope", "The Board
Strikes Back", and "The Return of the Jobs".

~~~
brudgers
_The Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones,_ and _Revenge of the Sith._

------
theDoug
My first guess would be respect for the company. Secondarily, plenty of
results in google reveal that the policy (if somewhat unofficially) is that
you can say you work at Apple on your blog, etc, but not really blog /about/
Working At Apple. Even if there's no official policy on it, it's just better
taste to say "The thoughts of John Doe" and not represent oneself as "John Doe
of Apple."

"There's a PR department for that."

All that said, there are plenty of writers/bloggers who work at Apple.
Randsinrepose.com is a personal favorite, and contains the writing work of
Michael Lopp who may be an engineering manager at the fruit company. This
policy of sorts goes much further back than iPhone/Android or any other blog-
hyped non-competition.

~~~
swombat
Interesting, I never realised that Rands works at Apple...

~~~
jeroen
Worked, according to WP: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rands>

------
naithemilkman
The first rule of working at Apple - No one talks about Apple.

~~~
iwr
Second rule of Apple: one button and no more. If you need more, just use the
on-screen buttons.

~~~
seltzered
I actually understood the one-button mouse idea recently. It forces software
developers to try not to hide all the useful features behind right-click
menus, but figure out how to consistently lead a user to where they want to
go.

User Story: My wifi wasn't working on my windows laptop the other day, I knew
there was some nice "troubleshoot network" button, but I could not find it for
the life of me every time i clicked on the wifi icon, causing me to go through
the "network and sharing center" menu . 10 minutes later I finally realized
right-clicking instantly brought up the troubleshoot menu.

~~~
coliveira
> It forces software developers to try not to hide all the useful features

except that in the Mac you can option-click, which is even more complicated
than a right click. There is always a way to make features obscure, if you
want to.

~~~
foljs
>except that in the Mac you can option-click, which is even >more complicated
than a right click. There is always a way >to make features obscure, if you
want to.

Emm, I think you missed his point. This is EXACTLY why the single button mouse
forced software developers to make it work with a single click --because it
made the "right click" equivalent more difficult for the user.

------
stevefink
Probably because most of the people working there would like to keep their
jobs.

~~~
dejb
Freedom, yeah baby!

------
xentronium
I believe that they've got somewhat strictest policies on talking about
internal stuff.

Well, at least that's what some bloggers write about [1] and I haven't heard
about any counter-proofs.

[1] [http://gizmodo.com/5427058/apple-gestapo-how-apple-hunts-
dow...](http://gizmodo.com/5427058/apple-gestapo-how-apple-hunts-down-leaks)

~~~
larsberg
I agree. I have close, personal friends who went to work at Apple. The last
time I talked to one of them, they started getting visibly nervous just
talking about the breakfast they had at the on-campus cafe.

Not what it cost, or what it was, but even that it existed.

I quickly changed the topic.

~~~
czhiddy
Sounds like your friend suffers from bizarre paranoia or acute social anxiety.
(See how I can just make stuff up too?)

Having been invited multiple times by friends to Infinite Loop for lunch and
dinner, and debated the quality of the food vs Google's with them (Google
still wins on that front), I can safely say that nobody at Apple gives a shit
if employees talk about the cafe.

The Gizmodo article is pretty much bullshit as well, my friends tell me.
Unless there are groups at Apple that are more secretive than the UI
team/iPhone/iPad are and actually enforce those rules on their own.

~~~
larsberg
"(See how I can just make stuff up too?)"

Unfortunately, I didn't make up my post. Your reply is just as interesting
without peppering in a baseless accusation.

~~~
czhiddy
My apologies!

Your friend's reaction was just plain absurd, unless he/she was playing a joke
on you.

------
geebee
This is a really interesting question, and got me thinking - maybe google's
brutal interview process has a secondary purpose - to increase the allure of
working at google?

This reminds me of a business case I read once about the difference between
Mac Donalds and Burger King. That Mac Donalds uses a batch processing method
that is faster but requires a higher skill level, whereas BK uses an assembly
line, and that this affects their advertising. MacD's ads often double as
recruiting ads, whereas BK tends to emphasize "have it your way" (easier to
customize when you make burgers one at a time).

Maybe Google wants to interview more people than necessary, and subject them
to an interview that leaves them thinking "man, you need to be at the top of
your game to work there!" as a way of increasing the prestige of working there
(and perhaps getting more top applicants?)

The thing is, I don't really see why this strategy would apply more to google
than apple (unlike the MD vs BK thing...)

One thing is sure - devs are all aware of google's notorious interview
process, but we (well, I should really just speak for myself, so I) never
really hear these stories about apple.

~~~
jacques_chester
Anthropologists have noted for a long time that social groups with high
barriers to entry engender greater loyalty. This behaviour occurs throughout
many cultures -- from tribal rites of passage through to frat boy hazing, the
nastier the experience, the stronger the bond.

I expect that brutal interviewing is no different.

------
limmeau
When Glyph Lefkowitz (of the Twisted project) was hired, he posted unboxing
pics of his job offer to his blog (which has since been closed down). He
praised the usability of the letter.

Second-hand mention in: [http://www.geek.com/articles/apple/unboxing-an-apple-
job-off...](http://www.geek.com/articles/apple/unboxing-an-apple-job-
offer-2009106/)

------
misnomer
I worked at Apple EMEIA for a year and, truth be told, the interview process
there depends.

It depends on where you want to work. If it's in Cupertino I'm told it's a
completely different story to the EMEIA office. Having worked there, I can
vouch for there really being a culture of absolute secrecy. It's quite common
for one team to not know what's going on in the other corner of the room with
another team. Secrecy has gotten even more prevalent in the EMEIA office (the
office being made up of project managers alone, it was formerly less secretive
than Apple World Wide/Cupertino) since the Gizmodo iPhone 4 affair. As regards
fear related to Apple's security paranoia? It was moreover regarded as an
irritation.

Going back to the interview process at Apple EMEIA (I can't say for Apple WW),
it depends entirely upon who interviews you, which team, for what role, and
what level. There is no set pattern. There may be an NDA for the interview
process, there may not. It depends on the role and the person you are seeing.
I know some who've had only two interviews, some who've had nine. It depends.

------
adamtj
Whether it's intentional or coincidence, it's interesting how it parallels
their products. There are approximately three people who work for Apple. They
are the shiny, slick interface. Everything else is an implementation detail.

Jonathan Ive is like OS X. Nobody knows how OS X actually works, but they know
the name and that it is why their screen shows such pretty things.

~~~
funkah
What makes you say nobody knows how OS X actually works? The developer
documents aren't a big batch of jokes, they describe how the system works.
Also take a look at "Mac OS X Internals" by Amit Singh, there's more about the
inner workings of OS X there than you could ever possibly care to know.

~~~
adamtj
When I say nobody, I mean no normal people. By posting here, you automatically
exclude yourself from that group. Your mom doesn't know how OS X works.

~~~
funkah
Normal people aren't supposed to know OS internals, that's the whole point of
UI abstractions! They have more important matters to deal with when they use a
computer. OS X isn't any different from other OSs in this regard: your mom
doesn't know what the registry is.

------
noobuntu
The man in the black turtleneck will find you if you talk

------
HectorRamos
I interviewed for Apple a few months ago. I didn't get to the NDA signing part
(I backed out because another opportunity came up during the process) but
still wouldn't talk about the interviews I went through because I still hope
to go back and try again someday (in the slim chance that our current venture
doesn't work out).

------
zandorg
There's folklore.org but that's like 25 years ago.

------
the_jc
I blogged about my experiences both in Apple Retail, and in "corporate" Apple
for a number of years. Eventually I took it all down, though not due to any
pressure from the company. I took it down because I was inundated with emails
from 15 year olds who wanted to know how to get a job in an AppleStore. But I
worked for Apple for 6 years in Retail and AppleCare, and interfaced
extensively with hardware engineering. I'm not sure I'd have anything
interesting to say, but if you have any questions, I'll try my best to answer
them.

------
momotomo
The NDA comments across this thread are interesting, in the company I work for
we NDA on just about every single external interaction. We're an IP black hole
- anything you do using company resources (including sitting interviews) is
considered our IP and is controlled as such.

We often get PHD students in to do research for us, and we compensate the hell
out of them - because nothing they do ever leaves the walls. They sign a
series of NDA and IP related contracts up front and don't get to use any
external assets internally or vice versa.

The structure of the business itself is a mess of interwoven black box systems
/ IP and our own work, so it gets pretty aggressive / tight lipped whenever
anyone is dealing with other people / companies, even internal branches.

------
fogus
NDA?

~~~
mcantor
This comment probably has one of the highest upvote-to-character-length ratios
in HN history.

~~~
GavinB
__

~~~
rrrhys
#DIV/0!

------
anonymon
If you go to Apple, you might be surprised to find out that you've already
agreed to some form of NDA with them. Especially, for example, if you're a
part of any Apple Developer program. They might not always feel compelled to
remind you of this, however.

I wouldn't know, though; I don't think I recall ever having been to Apple. No,
not in a million years. I do find this Apple sweatshirt which I must've found
at a thrift store to be especially comfy, however.

------
epynonymous
but i think the author's got a point, you never hear about any stalwarts of
software dev defecting to apple, do you?

~~~
rahoulb
no never. not jordan hubbard, not dominic giampolo. no-one.

~~~
nostrademons
Who?

~~~
rahoulb
Tsk, young people today. No idea of history (where history == about ten years
ago)

~~~
_delirium
It could be that it's not as common currently? I may have just missed it, but
I haven't noticed any high-profile moves to Apple in the past 2-3 years,
contrary to the situation with people moving around between Microsoft, Google,
and Facebook.

------
darwinGod
Regarding NDA's - Don't most companies sign some sort of an NDA with potential
hires/ employees??Still, interview questions of most companies are available
if you google well enough. But yeah, the difference is humongous- Apple doesnt
seem to have the faintest thing similar to mini-microsoft :-)

------
madridorama
i have a friend that works at apple, and other than providing a vague job
description and saying they like it, they don't discuss details.

i think it's the culture, your work speaks for itself. he puts in long hours
(on par with goog really) and has a great salary and perks.

------
AlexC04
The first rule of interviewing at apple is that you do not talk about
interviewing at apple.

------
te_chris
Sounds like a cult tbh - and I'm a mac fan.

------
JustinD
It's simple.

If you want the job,

And you're smart,

You'll keep your goddamn mouth shut.

------
bpm140
The first rule of Fight Club?

~~~
whogivesashirt
"No smoking."

~~~
rahoulb
that's the second rule

------
lwhi
Fear is a man's best friend.

~~~
megamark16
"Fear is a dictator's best friend"

FTFY :-)

~~~
lwhi
It's probably not nice to refer to Steve in that way ... ;)

------
pitdesi
I interviewed at Apple for a product manager role. I have an MBA, and they
were an on-campus recruiter. I interviewed on campus, then they called me to
tell me I was going to have a 2nd round interview in Cupertino. 2 weeks later,
I haven't heard anything and I am scheduled to be in Mountain View for a GOOG
interview. I email them, telling them that I'd be happy to come in and save
myself the time and them the travel expense...

They email me a week later (post my interview) and tell me "that should
work..." They really have a crappy set of recruiters working there.
Ultimately, I needed to accept another job (ended up being at AMZN), and Apple
never actually got back to me. I've heard some similar stories about recruiter
ineptitude there.

~~~
jacques_chester
So they treat engineers and designers better than MBAs?

Oh noes!

------
dnsworks
Remember the Oompa Loompas?

Same concept.

------
rohan037
We all talk about how Megan Fox is hot, but then return to designing a
descript schemantic intended to woo the girl next door.

And I dont mean to say that apple is out of one's league.

------
revorad
There's enough talk here about Apple, maybe not about working or interviewing
there, but honestly there's just way too much talk about big companies on HN
already; we don't need more.

What's the point of this meta thread anyway? Are you planning to work at
Apple? If so, why don't you just ask specific direct questions about that?

Flagged for zero content.

~~~
dawsdesign
Sounds like personal preference. This site is for natural selection. If people
are interested in it then it will get voted up. _Voted Up because I've often
wondered it myself_

~~~
nostrademons
It's kinda interesting, though, that when this site was founded almost 4 years
ago, everything was about "What's it like to work for a startup?" And now,
everything is apparently "What's it like to work for Google/Facebook/Apple?"

I wonder if that's a symptom of HN's widening userbase, or if it's a sign of
the times. Back in 2007, the startup market was _very_ glutted, and a lot of
people (including myself) were founding companies who probably should not have
been. Now, it seems like every top developer's dream is to work for one of the
Big 3. I wonder if that's a sign that it's time to start founding companies
again.

~~~
alanstorm
Don't forget that some of the original Hacker News user base is getting older
and deciding to try out new things. Working for a large technology company,
even if you ultimately want to strike out on your own, is a good experience
and can teach you a lot of thing you're not going to learn at a startup or
small business (simply because you'll never encounter them)

~~~
jacquesm
> Don't forget that some of the original Hacker News user base is getting
> older and deciding to try out new things.

I think for the most part that it is because they're simply leaving.

