
What You Don't Get About the Job Search: Voices of the Jobless - mvs
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/08/what-you-dont-get-about-the-job-search-voices-of-the-jobless/243942/
======
pnathan
Having no money is viciously hard to deal with, especially when you don't have
any connections or a portfolio of work. When I graduated with my B.S.C.S in
'06...

\- I had no money to move. Any company that wanted me would have had to pay
relocation.

\- There are exactly 4 tech firms in the area, total employment of engineers
is < 1000.

\- I had studied general CS, generally trying not to be tied to a given TLA
technology. This meant that I could not claim "years of experience with tech
X".

\- I had not had the time to do open-source work, I had been doing my studies.
By the time I was aware enough to do interesting work, my studies were too
intensive.

\- I had had a bad semester immediately prior to graduation, and my GPA was
not near 4. (over 3 tho).

\- I had done academic summer research, not internships.

I played careerbuilder & monster.com like I was supposed to. No. Luck.

I janitored for 6 months and dug up some university jobs, then back to
graduate school, where I cadged the internship -> full-time transition.

I think there was also a culture factor, I was making a transition from a
blue-collar culture to a white-collar one, and expectations & knowledge of
expectations are different, in many subtle ways.

To this day, I have a good deal of sympathy for people out of work.

Based on my personal experience, I encourage hiring managers and recruiters to
look past the keywords to the possibilities that the candidate has. A good
candidate can move into anything they need to be, if you give them a chance.

~~~
patio11
_I played careerbuilder & monster.com like I was supposed to._

We need to have a How The World Works discussion with college students so that
they understand that resume spray-and-pray _is not actually how people get
white collar jobs_. Honestly I think that a good deal of the persistent
unemployment problem is that people are doing cargo cult job searching and
this checks their mental box for "making a good effort", when they should
instead be making directed efforts to meet people with the authority to hire
them and convincing them to make it happen.

~~~
Tichy
Fully agree. I have recommended "What Color Is Your Parachute" to job seekers
several times, but they were so exhausted from sending out dozens of
applications every day that they didn't even have time or interest to read it.

Not that I have personally tried the strategies in that book (admittedly), but
it sounded very plausible to me :-/ At the very least, what is there to lose.
If 100 job applications didn't work, does it really hurt to try something else
for a week?

~~~
patio11
_they didn't even have time or interest to read it._

So one thing that counterindicates working alone at home is having poor
discipline with regards to use of time. This sometimes bites me on the
hindquarters: if you do a little work in the morning, goof off on the Internet
for a while, and do a little work in the afternoon, it often "feels like" you
worked that day. And if on a Tuesday you miss your morning, well, nobody yells
at you. And why do the afternoon, when you've already missed the morning? And
then that happens on Wednesday. etc, etc

Put it this way: let's say someone had voluntarily quit their day job as a
result of, I don't know, achieving an exit. If they told me that, six months
after quitting their day job, they were so busy with the three emails they
wrote per week that they didn't have time to read a particular book, I would
say that they merely have poor time accounting skills or that their revealed
preference is that they have no intention of reading the book.

I hate saying "unemployed people are lying" in so many words, so I won't. But
6 months times 40 hours a week is _a thousand hours_. More if you previously
had a commute or worked overtime. If you don't have 1,000 hours worth of
progress on whatever your #1 priority is at the moment, you have to ask
yourself why not.

~~~
Tichy
To be fair, it is usually not just writing three emails. First you have to
research the potential recipients, browsing job ads and the companies web
site. You might even go so far as to taylor your CV towards the position.

Also, as you say, managing time efficiently at home is difficult. And they
might just be tired of hearing yet another well meaning advice.

There might also be a factor of things taking more time if you don't have
money. You have to go to the cheap supermarket that is far away rather than
the expensive one around the corner. You have to go shopping and cook for
yourself, rather than grabbing a quick lunch at your favorite Sushi joint. And
so on.

But I don't really know - I actually offered to try to help some job seeker in
my blog once, but nobody took me up on it. Of course my blog has no reach and
I was also unsure of what I could really offer (except for computer skills,
brushing up online representations and whatnot). I am actually very interested
in that problem - figuring out ways to help job seekers could do a lot of
good.

One thing I imagined was A/B testing for job application letters and CVs. If
you are really sending out hundreds of applications, it might begin to make
sense?

~~~
patio11
The A/B testing math for low numbers and low conversion rates is not
attractive. You can work the numbers out, but my guesstimate at dinner is that
if you get one interview per twenty and mail 100 per week, you'd need almost a
year to get confidence on a 6th interview per week. I would A/B test your
marketing site as a dev purely to communicate that that is how you think, but
it would not provide value to the average unemployed person. (All devs with
any desire to ever get a job should have a web prescence, by the way.)

The scenario is more interesting if you rep a lot of candidates. A LinkedIn oe
what have you could test resummes or equivalent web views very efficiently
indeed.

~~~
pcote
I wish a web presence worked. I have a web site, youtube channel, github,
blog, linkedin, and twitter account. They all shows a track record of open
source work I've shared.

I have no regrets on sharing my work online like this. However, the idea that
it's likely to help land a job is just survivorship bias.

~~~
patio11
Honestly, I think OSS is overrated for career impact. ("There, I said it.")
I'd also probably do your site a wee bit differently if I wished to get job
offers from it. For example, I'd put a prominent notice on it that you're
actually hireable. I'd also make your version of those little hire-me mini
sites. Don't make people work (across six different places which are largely
not connected) to discover how wonderful of a precious snowflake you are.

That said: just because you touch the Internet doesn't guarantee you a nice
safe job for life, but you're a darn sight better off if the decisionmaker you
influence either a) has read you in the past or b) is reading you right now
than you are if you're in the spray & pray slush pile.

~~~
pcote
like this?

<http://www.blenderaddons.com/aboutme.php>

~~~
cosgroveb
"A Junior-to-Mid Level Developer" ... Which is it? Pick one.

Also, "I've been out of work and on the job hunt for a year." This may be true
but is not a selling point. Say instead, "I'm available for work, contract or
full time, right now. Hire me."

~~~
pcote
Okay, I made the changes you suggested.

As for the matter of picking "junior" or "mid", I was hedging my bets by
including both. I have no point of reference as to how good I am or if I'm
good at all. I haven't worked around other developers for 2 years now. It's
all been solo "side project" stuff. Feel free to shoot my an email if you want
to continue this discussion. I do appreciate your critique.

------
waterside81
This really hit home for me. All too often we view the unemployed as a
statistic, but this article really put a human face on the issue. As pundits &
politicians argue about various macroeconomics theories, levels of taxations
etc. there are real life people out there trying to find a way to live, never
mind advance in life. It's gut wrenching.

~~~
danilocampos
Bizarre to me to see this downvoted. Callous privilege of working in a booming
industry while the rest of the economy is constipated, I suppose.

~~~
kubrickslair
Yes, but I also feel that things are not going to get any better for most of
the general population who got laid off.

------
gexla
Quote by Morgan Freeman from Shawshank Redemption.

"These walls are funny. First you hate 'em, then you get used to 'em. Enough
time passes, you get so you depend on them. That's institutionalized."

I wonder if that's what's happening to people these days. They go through the
institution of education through their youth, and then the institution of
higher education. When they graduate they go through the institution of the
job search and sending out resumes.

People are told this is how things work all their lives. They saw their
parents doing it and now they are doing the same thing. When the process
starts to break down, they don't know what to do. In some cases people are
shackled by the institution of home ownership (unable to move to the jobs.)

As others are saying, contacts are highly important. My level is success is
dependent on the size of my virtual rolodex. People need to get around the
institution.

Personally, I'm a freelancer living in a foreign country. Currently I'm living
in a cozy house costing me less than $200 per month (third world tropical
paradise!) I can move anywhere and work from anywhere. I get jobs, salaries,
contracts and one-off quickies in the same industry and they are all the same
to me. The only difference is in the payment model. I think everyone needs to
start thinking like this. Don't be an employee looking for a job, be a
business making the same sorts of decisions the other businesses are. You are
offering a service and you need to be mobile in offerings and locations to
survive.

~~~
grannyg00se
Completely off topic, but you brought it up so I'm going to ask: How did you
manage an entire house in paradise for $200 per month? Do you have access to
decent food, in relative safety, and have a good reliable internet connection?

~~~
gexla
I'm living in the Philippines. I feel very safe here.

It's Asia, so the market for food here isn't as wide as the market for food in
the U.S. For example, there are Germans here who have setup their own shops
for food which I have never seen and has little demand from the locals. You
will never see that sort of food in the grocery stores. The Philippines isn't
known for it's food like Thailand is. Certainly food is a big part of
happiness in life, but I'm happy here for the most part. There are some things
I miss but there are American resto's which do a pretty good job of bridging
the gap. In the largest cities here, you can find pretty much anything.

My internet connection is reliable enough. I do have plans in place for
problems which occasionally pop up, but my area is stable enough that it hosts
a lot of BPO's (call centers.)

Housing is relatively cheap here. The standards are also lower, but if you
have lived in Asia for a while then you get used to the differences. I could
get a nicer house for a lot more money but I'm content where I'm at and the
price is right.

------
holdenc
I am willing to risk my karma by saying that people complaining about these
things don't seem to get the following:

\- Going to college doesn't mean you deserve a job more than someone else. Got
an ivy league degree? A PhD? Get over it.

\- America is still a country where one can post up signs on a telephone pole
to help someone move boxes, clean a house, or drive a car. Not ideal right?
Maybe, but these people can earn $200 a day paid in cash if they work hard.
Putting up signs and actually doing the work is usually a psychological
barrier to many people though.

\- Being poor sucks, sure. But guess what -- learning to withstand it is a
good skill to have. Perhaps one of the most indispensable ones a serious
independent risk taking entrepreneur can have. If one can learn to be poor and
deal with the associated social and practical problems, you'll have a
fearlessness and sense of freedom that few office workers know.

\- Having a job does not mean someone is successful. And not having a job does
not mean someone is a failure. People often tie their self worth to their job
title, and therefore every sales person is now a "vice-president", and data
entry workers are "analysts" -- title inflation is easier than salary
inflation. In many cases, having one's time to do nothing but reflect and
self-improve is preferable to one of these jobs.

~~~
scrod
Don't worry, I don't have any sympathy for you, either.

And in an unrelated point, a good companion to this article is _Being Poor_ :

<http://whatever.scalzi.com/2005/09/03/being-poor/>

~~~
yummyfajitas
Scalzi's article describes a fairly atypical poverty experience. It's a very
inaccurate description for most American poor people.

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1713461>

------
ChristianMarks
Some of the schadenfreude is directed toward struggling MBAs and Ph.D.s in
economics, whose patronizing platitudinous advice to the millions of
unemployed to become more competitive in the new globalized economy has
neither been forgotten, nor forgiven. They helped facilitate the collapse, and
encouraged the upper one tenth of one percent to win asymmetric zero-sum games
against the middle class. Now they have to become more competitive in minimum
wage jobs.

~~~
chrismealy
I never get tired of quoting Mike Konczal:

 _And speaking as someone who has taken graduate coursework in “continental
philosophy”, and been walked through the big hits of structural anthropology,
Hegelian marxism and Freudian feminism, that graduate macroeconomics class was
by far the most ideologically indoctrinating class I’ve ever seen. By a mile.
There was like two weeks where the class just copied equations that said, if
you speak math, “unemployment insurance makes people weak and slothful” over
and over again. Hijacking poor Richard Bellman, the defining metaphor was that
observation that if something is on an optimal path any subsection is also an
optimal path, so government just needs to get out of the way as the
macroeconomy is optimal absent absurdly defined shocks and our 9.6%
unemployment is clearly optimal._

\-- [http://rortybomb.wordpress.com/2010/06/29/blogging-and-
the-e...](http://rortybomb.wordpress.com/2010/06/29/blogging-and-the-
economics-profession/)

~~~
arethuza
You may be interested in this book:

"Economyths: Ten Ways Economics Gets It Wrong"

[http://www.amazon.com/Economyths-Ways-Economics-Gets-
Wrong/d...](http://www.amazon.com/Economyths-Ways-Economics-Gets-
Wrong/dp/0470677937)

This book explores the idea that classical economics, despite its severe case
of physics-envy, may be "flat-out wrong". The author has a PhD in non-linear
systems from Oxford, so I don't think he is a complete crank! I certainly find
his arguments to be pretty plausible.

~~~
xyzzyz
_The author has a PhD in non-linear systems from Oxford, so I don't think he
is a complete crank!_

This is an utterly wrong attitude, and the history of science proved it many,
many times when scientists produced total bullshit when they were leaving
their area of expertise. It's not always the case, but it happens too often to
disregard it.

~~~
dereg
For example, Einstein was a famous supporter of socialism.
<http://monthlyreview.org/2009/05/01/why-socialism>

Okay, and before I enrage anybody else, Einstein was one of my childhood
heroes and inspirations, and still is. We can't say that, categorically, all
scientists working outside of their realm of expertise produce bullshit, but
it notably has happened.

~~~
danssig
Keep your tea party political nonsense off hacker news. Go somewhere like
reddit if you want to spew ignorance.

~~~
lotharbot
Related: if you want to complain that the guy's argument is nonsense, just
complain that it's nonsense. There's no need to bring a perceived political
orientation into it. The only thing your "tea party" comment does is adds a
level of emotional polarization, much like his "socialism" comment before.
Please keep such emotional baggage off of hacker news.

~~~
danssig
>There's no need to bring a perceived political orientation into it.

People need to understand what they're saying. If this guy is going to come on
here with an out-of-the-blue judgment on an abstract concept someone needs to
point out that he's being simple minded. And in the group most likely to have
_this particular_ ignorant behavior are, in fact, the tea party.

>Please keep such emotional baggage off of hacker news.

He brought the emotional baggage here so I stepped up to say it's not welcome
in clear and unambiguous terms. If people want to vote us both into the gray
I'm good with that. The OP is not getting away with silent contempt from me.
Not on hacker news.

~~~
lotharbot
> _"He brought the emotional baggage here so I stepped up to say it's not
> welcome in clear and unambiguous terms."_

Your post suggests that _his version_ of emotional baggage is simple-minded
and unwelcome, but _your version_ of emotional baggage is OK.

In reality, _neither of your versions_ of emotional baggage belong on Hacker
News.

------
hugh3
I dislike headlines like this. It's phrased as a challenge, or almost an
accusation. Why are you accusing _me_ of not knowing what it's like to be
jobless, Mister Theatlantic? You don't even know me!

And what does it turn out to be that I don't know about being jobless? Well
here's what I learned:

1\. It sucks

2\. It's hard not having much money

3\. Getting a job is hard

4\. Don't do a degree in Women's Studies

I'm not sure any of this was a particularly new insight.

~~~
kstenerud
I think the real insight is sorely absent from the article.

It seems that most people who undergo higher education do so with the
expectation that it will lead to a "higher" job, and that's magical thinking.

Sure, higher education is pretty much a requirement for certain classes of
jobs, but it's not the only requirement, and it pales compared to the most
important requirement: contacts.

This is a human world we live in, and humans by nature are friendlier to
someone they know than to someone they don't know.

I, too, once believed in the entitlement that an education "should" bring,
until I looked back at all of the jobs I landed (and the thousands I didn't),
and realized that every single job I successfully interviewed for was a direct
result of a contact in my network.

This is even more important in times of recession, because you're up against a
whole army of faceless job seekers, all flooding potential employers with
pieces of paper and lamenting the lack of response.

If an employer can't put a face to your name, you stand as much a chance of
getting in as winning the lottery.

~~~
powertower
> It seems that most people who undergo higher education do so with the
> expectation that it will lead to a "higher" job, and that's _magical
> thinking_.

It's also false advertisement.

"Get a degree from us and you'll get a job" is how it's sold to us from the
age of elementary school forwards.

Degrees are expensive and this industry earns 100s of billions every year.
There is only 1 way they can market a degree to you, and that's to connect it
directly with a job.

~~~
prostoalex
College loans is one of the crummiest industries in the US.

By manipulating legislature to gain recourse status (even after a personal
bankruptcy), accepting government money to finance such futile aspirations,
and pushing up the overall price of higher ed, they're in a unique position to
be disliked by both liberals and conservatives.

With graduate degrees especially the loan applicant should be required to
cover a good portion of their education from their current job. Which will
make them at least test the waters (i.e. internship offices and recruiting
departments) to see what market applicability their current/future degree has,
instead of finding the truth a few years later with a six-digit debt.

~~~
amorphid
100% agreed.

------
danielpal
This was a real shocker. As soon as I read that a PhD student from Purdue
University couldn't find a job, it really shocked me. I too graduated from
Purdue, but never had any trouble finding a job, but the truth is that we
"computer scientists" are living in a bubble, while the rest of the people are
having real trouble getting a job.

~~~
hugh3
A PhD in education.

What is one _supposed_ to do with a PhD in education anyway? Surely not become
a teacher?

~~~
arethuza
Become an academic in that field - that is pretty much what a PhD is -
credentialing for academic research.

~~~
hugh3
So a PhD in education educates me about to educate others about education?

~~~
count
A PhD in Education certifies you to do research in education to potentially
teach others about in the future. The intent is to generate new ideas and try
new things, and the PhD is a qualification that you can approach that in
(hopefully) a scientific manner, and that your results will be useful and
relevant to your field.

tl;dr: No, to research about education.

------
rboyd
Having been through periods of feeling down and out before, one thing I've
learned is that you're in a lot of trouble as soon as you start to feel like
the system owes you something.

The writing is on the wall. If you're not working to automate other jobs out
of existence then someone is working to automate yours. Minor exceptions given
for occupations that exist primarily to offer a human connection.

~~~
forensic
When you were 8 years old, did you believe that, in the future, people in
America would be frantically playing musical chairs with their lives, trying
to put other people out of a livelihood before others can do it to them?

When did the future turn into a game of Survivor?

When did the economy become a game of musical chairs? If you don't have a seat
when the music stops, just kiss your life goodbye.

~~~
potatolicious
> " _When did the future turn into a game of Survivor?"_

When we allowed 20% of the population to assume ownership of 80% of the
wealth, forcing everyone else to scramble for scraps. When we've dismantled
and made useless our social safety nets by a combination of poor policies and
equally poor policing for abuse. When we've collectively moved to the right in
economic and social policies, thereby not only disenfranchising the poor, but
also make them hate themselves - the loudest complaints about "socialists" and
"redistribution" seem to come from people who need it the most, but don't
recognize it.

It happened when we started penalizing people for having anything less than
perfect health. Have a chronic condition? Well, forget about
entrepreneurialism and adding to the economy, pray for a worker-cog job for
the rest of your days to keep the insurance flowing!

This may be a gross simplification of a complex issue - but it seems to me
like the futured turned into a game of Survivor when we started treating
everyone else like animals out to get us. The poor are lazy and out to game
the system. The immigrants are out to steal our jobs. The unemployed are lazy
and slovenly and want a free ride... etc etc.

The American public, IMO, needn't look much further than a mirror to see the
cause of their woes.

~~~
scrod
What is possibly the only coherent comment in this entire discussion is
already being down-voted. Sorry Hacker News, but your "cultivated community"
demonstrably fails to perpetuate very little more than a disinterested, self-
serving, center-right frame of reference with a strong undercurrent of
elitism.

~~~
temphn
Not to pick on this too much, but elitism is a _good thing_.

Do you want 1000 random links from the internet or 10 ordered blue links on
Google?

Do you want to send your child to a "mediocre" school or have them operated on
by a "mediocre" surgeon, or do you want them to go to the best schools and
have the best medical care?

If you are an investor, do you want to invest in mediocre companies? If you
are searching for work, do you want to work at a middle of the road place? And
if you are an employer/entrepreneur, do you want anything other than the best
employees?

Everyone is an elitist when they are doing the selecting. Some people don't
like it when they are on the other side of the selective filter. But let's not
kid ourselves, elitism is not an "undercurrent" and it's not objectionable by
any means. It's the whole ball of wax in any functioning society.

~~~
scrod
Every example you give is in terms of an _individualist_ view point, and yet
understanding what makes a "functioning society" requires some conception of a
_common good_. It is impossible for any significant portion of society to be
treated by the _very best_ doctors, or to send their children to the _very
best_ schools. To do what's best for society, the _majority_ merely need
access to good and _decent_ services.

From the dictionary: Elitism is "the advocacy or existence of an _elite_ as a
_dominating element_ in a system or society."

A society that favors the _elite individual_ above all else is by nature
hierarchical, exclusionary, and anti-democratic. Elitist societies _by
definition_ disempower the majority for the enrichment of a few. And _as per
the definition of "society"_ — "the aggregate of people living together in a
more or less ordered community" — elitism is an absolute failure.

Your attitude epitomizes this online community, and that's not a good thing.
Frankly, it's pretty repugnant.

~~~
temphn
> It is impossible for any significant portion of society to be treated by the
> very best doctors

Jonas Salk developed the polio vaccine, which was used to inoculate millions.
Just about every medical procedure used in practice and documented in
textbooks was developed by the best doctors, systematized, and then scaled
out.

> or to send their children to the very best schools.

Take a look at ai-class.org, ml-class.org, db-class.org. Textbooks were
version 1.0 of this concept, and also tend to be written by the best
educators.

The point: different people in different areas have different talents. The key
is to come up with models that allow the efforts of the talented in each area
to scale out so that more can access them, and so that the less talented can
benefit from the solutions even if they couldn't think them up in the first
place[1]. This is a process of iteration.

But the iteration won't even get started if one rejects quality/elitism from
the beginning.

[1] How many of the tens of millions of people operating browsers, iPhones,
refrigerators, or automobiles can understand them, let alone improve them, let
alone invent them? Civilization is based on finding the best, allowing them to
amass resources, and rewarding them for distributing their discoveries to as
many as possible. Denying that a technical elite exists is counterproductive.

~~~
yardie
_Jonas Salk developed the polio vaccine, which was used to inoculate millions.
Just about every medical procedure used in practice and documented in
textbooks was developed by the best doctors, systematized, and then scaled
out._

You pretty much sunk your argument with the very first example. Salk gave the
polio vaccine away for free so that kids wouldn't have to die anymore from it.

Elitism states that only the best should have it. Altruism states that
everyone deserves to have it.

------
Tichy
I know it is a bit OT but another thing that depresses me that I suspect most
people actually have pretty useless jobs. Like the one person wondering what
she did wrong, living in a wealthy neighborhood. Yes, other people have nice
cars and houses, but the reality is they are probably just doing some useless
thing in their job. They just hacked themselves into the system somehow (the
system is very ineffective). I don't think people do that out of a mean
spirit, they just try to get by and work with the system. It just seems most
of the world is fake at times, and it depresses me.

------
FiddlerClamp
I've been briefly employed, underemployed, and unemployed for the last several
years, supplementing it with freelance (writing) work.

It does take up all your time either searching for work, applying for work, or
just worrying about work and the future. I know I can do good work, and I'm
adaptable and humble, but the jobs just aren't out there for this 43-year-
old....

~~~
count
If you can get freelance writing work, you're familiar with freelancing. Why
not hustle that more, and look for freelance work, rather than a job? This is
news.yc after all!

~~~
FiddlerClamp
Fair enough - I can never quite seem to get up the momentum of contracts I
need to make a go of it. I'm not a sales type...

------
ntkachov
While reading this, This particular simpsons clip came to mind.

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMrENoTe3cE>

especially when i was reading about the PH.D from Purdue working as a janitor.

------
temphn
Saw this in the article:

> "The most difficult part of the job search is waiting for permission to give
> up"

What exactly does it mean for someone to "give up" on a job search? Unless you
have a significant other, won't you eventually starve and/or be kicked out of
your residence? Or does "giving up" mean collecting unemployment
insurance/welfare/disability insurance ad infinitum?

Genuinely curious here, do not mean this to be a loaded question.

~~~
robryan
I was thinking that they might mean social pressures, waiting until they can
give up without coming across as a complete failure or something like that.

~~~
temphn
Yes. But what do they do afterwards for food/rent?

~~~
ido
If you live in the developed world you won't actually starve - that's what
welfare is for.

~~~
blackguardx
It is actually pretty hard to get welfare and unemployment benefits in the US.
I got laid off from a job in California a few years ago and it took weeks for
the unemployment office to finally agree that I qualified for benefits. They
make it extremely hard to collect benefits so that they can save money. There
were times when I spent days calling only to have an automated voice tell me
to try calling again later. I wasn't even allowed to be put on hold in a phone
queue. It was very frustrating.

~~~
rick888
I've never had this problem. They've made it so easy that you only ever have
to talk to someone once. The rest of the time it's all online and is
automatically deposited into your bank account.

It may have been a problem because your ex-employer disputed it.

~~~
blackguardx
This was in California. You have to physically fill out forms every two weeks
and get checks mailed to you. My employer was a huge tech firm that laid off
25% of the company. They were actually very helpful in the transition, but
they can't work miracles on bureaucracy.

------
mannicken
However, being ok and having skills to deal with unemployment gives you an
important skill: Being able to openly say "Fuck you" to your employer or a
client.

The part about desperation is not exactly right. I think those who are
employed, unhappy and scared of unemployment are in a worse position.
Unemployed are actually free, they have very little to lose. They have gotten
out of zoo cages and roam the world, which while scary is much more
interesting than a job.

If you wanna have an absolute security that you'll have food and a roof, go to
jail or something.

------
geekam
I actually can feel this. I am looking for one myself in NYC/Nj area.

~~~
alnayyir
Are you a programmer?

If not, what do you do?

~~~
mattdeboard
I can't imagine a world where a programmer in NYC can't find a job.

~~~
blackguardx
It depends on your specialty.

~~~
geekam
True. I am ready to work as a junior developer too. I have computer science
background and have willingness to learn as well but that just does not cut
it, in this market.

I am however working on my own apps and learning and trying to build a
portfolio that way.

~~~
alnayyir
What open source work have you done?

~~~
geekam
I write Python scripts, write HTML and jQuery. I do not have anything concrete
yet.

~~~
mattdeboard
Let this be a lesson to anyone who happens to read this to have a public
portfolio of projects rounded out before you graduate, or before you need your
first programming job.

------
ak217
The second comment...

 _I am over the bruises to my ego; I just ignore my mother-in-law completely
now. The worst thing though is the impact on my kids. We were making $120K
plus two years ago. Now, about $35K. Lost the house. Thankfully still in the
same school. That said, the kids went from being respectably comfortable in
their cohort to being comfortable if tattered (used clothes, battered rental,
same old car, no summer trips, etc.). Thank God they are still young (just
started third grade) but we're not having any sleepovers here no matter how
much they ask. I am afraid for the social impact on them._

I have a very hard time sympathizing with this person. They ooze entitlement
and crave validation in every sentence.

~~~
danssig
What on earth are you talking about? This sounds like projection to me because
I didn't read anything like that in there.

It sounds to me like this person grew up poor and knows what it means. This
stupid idea that poor = lazy/bad is so entrenched in the US society (and was
when I was growing up too) that it can ruin your social life from very early
on. If I were in his shape I would do anything I had to to make sure my
children's peers thought of them as at least middle class so they would have
better social connections later in life.

Failing that, I would just let my kids know that when they get college age
we're moving somewhere so they can start a new life.

~~~
rick888
"This stupid idea that poor = lazy/bad is so entrenched in the US society (and
was when I was growing up too) that it can ruin your social life from very
early on"

If you aren't mentally or physically unable to do something (which is the case
in a small percentage of the population), you shouldn't be poor. There are
many opportunities in the US. I've been poor, had many poor friends, and now
I'm doing much better.

Poor, many times, can be changed, but people aren't willing to change their
lifestyles.

Many people have free time after work (if you aren't working, you have even
more free time). I chose to learn a skill during that time. Many of my
friends, who still aren't going anywhere in life, chose to drink, have fun,
and party with their friends. I sacrificed that time (for awhile at least) for
my career.

Many people also don't understand delayed gratification. They need to have
everything now and as a result, suffer financially.

"least middle class so they would have better social connections later in
life"

When you have more money, it becomes difficult to stay friends with people
that are consistently poor. Many times because your problems, outlook on life,
and hobbies change.

~~~
danssig
You, sir, don't have the slightest fucking clue what you're talking about.

~~~
rick888
okay, tell me why. I'm just telling you my experience of seeing this first-
hand many many times.

~~~
danssig
Your post was so arrogant, offensive and ignorant I don't even know where to
start. I suppose I'll just say: don't judge someone until you've walked a mile
in their shoes.

Maybe you've know (of known of) people you thought were scumbags. Maybe they
even were, but it's the height of ignorance to assume that all poor people are
the same based on that. I can tell you there really are people for whom
everything they try just seems to go wrong. And the US is a lot more brutal to
failure than most first world countries.

------
grappler
These quotes sound quite a bit like my dating life. Especially since I spend
so much time working...

------
MrKurtHaeusler
It is a pretty one-sided negative article.

I always enjoyed being jobless, I finally get the time to catch up on things I
want to do, and it is a good time to reflect and make life changes.

The general perception out there is that being jobless sucks, and this article
reinforces that by focussing on negative reports. It would have been much more
interesting to read a more balanced article.

~~~
jinushaun
Let me guess, you're probably young, single, male, already have money and
excellent job prospects. Hey, I'm in the same boat. I know I can quit my job,
backpack around the world for a year, come back and find a new job in a week.
And I have done that before so I speak from experience. I love being
unemployed.

But you know what? I'm thankful everyday for the fact that I have the option
to do that. I'm privileged and I know it. I am not as naive as to think this
is normal or good advice for the jobless. Tell that to someone with kids and a
mortgage. Tell them to go use this time to party, pursue what they love,
study, travel etc. That shit costs money and when you don't know when your
next paycheck will come, that is a foolish waste of time and horrible advice.

~~~
MrKurtHaeusler
34, married, male, no money, one and a half kids, I rent.

However, the next best thing applies. I live in Germany. They pay me to be
unemployed. In terms of total wealth, including time with kids, leisure, time
to learn things, follow my interests and invest time in providing for my
future, unemployment pays more than employment. (Financially it pays about 80%
of employment, but apart from that employment basically puts personal growth,
including preparing for a better future for my family, at a standstill.)

~~~
chairface
The article is written from an American viewpoint, about the USA. The
imbalance you perceive is in the culture and politics of the USA, not just the
article.

