

"The World is Moving to HTML 5" and Other Flights of Fancy - rayboyd
http://richardleggett.co.uk/blog/index.php/2010/02/01/the-world-is-moving-to-html5

======
jeff18
This basically reads, "If HTML 5 is so great, why aren't Flash developers,
like myself, using it?!"

That would be a much more interesting article, and the reason is basically
because the market share is not there yet, although it is increasing quite a
lot. However, to use this as a reason for the continued dominance of Flash is
obviously extremely short sighted.

The author himself predicts that the iPad and iPhone like devices will be the
future of computing, which lends even more credence to HTML 5, given that all
modern mobile devices support WebKit or the equivalent HTML 5 browser.

However, instead of arguing "HTML 5 is no more powerful than Flash", the
author needs to argue why an open standard, which is rapidly developing and
seeing continuous growth, will not take off.

The author cites a few examples of super powerful Flash web apps and seems to
imply that these are the future of desktop applications, however, these are
dwarfed by the quantity of new web applications created every day.

The author basically needs to argue why Google and the countless other
creators of popular web apps out there would switch to Flash, when the trend
seems to be pointing in the opposite direction.

HTML 5 is not so much a "Flash killer" as it is simply "one less reason to
have to use Flash".

~~~
robotron
The tools are also not there yet. In order for HTML5 to really gain momentum
there needs to be a set of tools that are as easy to create with as Flash.

~~~
jeff18
You should check out 280north's Atlas. <http://280atlas.com/> It's still in
beta, but you can get access to it by preordering it (highly recommended).

WebKit's Web Inspector is quite awesome -- Apple actually has bankrolled a few
full time employees to work on it, and many more contributors have been
hacking away at it for quite some time. In my opinion, it is the best example
to learn HTML 5 best practices from (it is written in HTML 5 itself).

FireBug is also great (I prefer the WebKit Web Inspector myself, since about 1
year ago, due to its rapid updates) but FireBug is quite excellent.

Apple also provides some a rudimentary IDE called Dashcode, which I don't
really like, but might be helpful for others. The OS X dashboard has been 100%
WebKit / HTML 5 powered for quite some time.

Not to say that these are necessarily better than Adobe's dev tools, but the
writing is on the wall. The awesome thing is that all of these I have
mentioned, with the exception of Dashcode, are open source and rapidly
developed both by full time employees of various interested companies and the
community.

~~~
mortenjorck
Atlas looks promising.

Just as a side note, though... The introduction video uses Flash.

------
jdietrich
The key error this author makes is in the title, with the word "moving". The
title suggests that the general velocity of web technologies isn't towards
open standards, particularly HTML5. The content of the post seems to be a mere
apologetic for Flash as the status quo, arguing that at the moment HTML5
cannot do what Flash can. That is evidently true, just as it is also evidently
true that the internet is moving towards HTML5.

All of the major players but Adobe are making big steps towards HTML5 as the
standard for rich internet media. Even Microsoft are being forced to tag
along. We simply have to answer one question - which technology is improving
at a greater rate, Flash or HTML5? Basic arithmetic will tell us the rest.

Flash is a dead technology walking. The forces that want it dead are faster,
smarter and better resourced than Adobe.

A previous poster said 'HTML 5 is not so much a "Flash killer" as it is simply
"one less reason to have to use Flash".'. Like any open technology, HTML5 is
one reason after another, with more reasons presenting themselves at a near-
exponential rate.

------
robotron
"Disclaimer: This post is not about defending Flash."

No, it really is. This is just as annoying as anyone claiming that
HTML5+extras means the immediate (or even near-term) death of Flash.

~~~
rayboyd
Indeed. However when you get past the overused rhetoric of the first paragraph
the author makes some good points and it is quite a balanced viewpoint.

Imo it is a lot better than the Gruber and Brimelow led style of drivel that
is doing the rounds at the moment.

~~~
cjbos
Not sure why your comment is being voted down. I also thought this was a
balanced viewpoint of what the current situation is from a flash developer.

I pretty much agree with the summary that we are stuck supporting solutions
for both platforms in the interim, also that the developers who will start
ramping up on HTML5 will likely be the flash developers currently in the
workforce as they slowly migrate their skillsets across. We've done it before
recently from AS2 to AS3 and also Flash to Flex so its not like we don't have
recent experience.

What will make this transition quicker though is if Adobe include HTML5
authoring tools in the next version of the suite. I think they are best suited
to give us the tools we need. They are not married to the Flash platform, look
at the recent iPhone support added to the Flash IDE, if Flash was to disappear
tomorrow they will still have a market to retool the IDE and sell it. Also
Adobe has to protect After Effect's market share, so a straight from After
Effects to HTML5 player via Dreamweaver pipeline is likely going to happen.

This animosity towards Adobe, and the thinking they are killing the web with
flash has to stop if we want to help Adobe to provide us with the tools we
need to create the new HTML5 experience, and also leverage our existing RIA
developer base to build it. Adobe is not killing the web we love, the
marketing departments of giant corporations is killing the web we love, and
will do so regardless of flash or no flash.

The interaction in one of the example links the author posted is amazing
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zuOdJQiljw&feature=youtu...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zuOdJQiljw&feature=youtu.be)
seriously awesome stuff, I would never had though this would be such a closed
minded group of people than to vote against anyone who argues a point and
provides evidence to back it up

~~~
rayboyd
Not sure about the down voting myself. Non populist view points I guess (even
though I did not express one). I bet the guy who claims Flash is a factor in
climate shift didn't have this problem.

~~~
cjbos
I'd recommend always using a black background in your flash movies. It helps
to offset any perceived negative carbon footprint caused by the decision to
use flash.

------
jsz0
Why doesn't Adobe just open source the Flash plugin? Seems like it would solve
a lot of problems here.

~~~
jdowdell
Short phrase becomes more complex when examined... some history here:
[http://blogs.adobe.com/jd/2009/07/opening_the_flash_file_for...](http://blogs.adobe.com/jd/2009/07/opening_the_flash_file_format.html)

------
VBprogrammer
> nearly all applications will be web-based in the next 5 years

I sincerely hope the author is wrong. I think the almost all the applications
which function well on the internet have communication as their core function.
I sick fed up of having to use 5 languages (Java/PHP/Ruby/Clojure/Python, SQL,
HTML, JavaScript, CSS) just to create a moderately usable UI. Even worse, I'm
fed up having to work with crappy unresponsive Enterprise Web based UIs.

~~~
jeff18
This is exactly what HTML 5 changes though. You don't even need an internet
connection (other than to download the web app originally, obviously).

------
tumult
We should allow the Flash developers to secede from the web. It's what they
seem to want, anyway.

~~~
amadiver
I'm a person who thinks that the web is the most important invention in the
history of humanity, first, and a Flash developer second. We absolutely do not
want to secede from the web. We love the web so much that we want to use the
most powerful tool we can to express ourselves (even if it has its own
problems). If that means developing for a closed-source(1) plugin that makes
us pariahs in the development community and subject to some vitriolic Flash-
bashing every time we open up HN or Proggit, so be it.

I love HTML5, too. And ES4. And CSS3. I like reading their specs, and articles
about them, and flame wars on their mailing lists. I can't wait for them all
to catch on. I don't care if any open web technology impinges on Flash's turf
- with Video, Canvas, WebGL, Transitions, and fundamental changes to ES/JS -
or even overtakes Flash. The author of the post said as much, and I know
plenty of other Flash devs that agree.

I don't know what Flash developer gave you the impression that they don't want
to be part of the web. I don't know why you seem to think that's "what they
seem to want". I have a feeling you're scoring some easy karma. All I'm asking
for is: Can we have a little less "They took our jobs!(2)" in this discourse?

(1)I have complex feelings about Flash being closed source. On one hand, I
believe the web should be open. On the other, I believe open-sourcing it means
Microsoft builds its own version, forks it enough to cause a fractured
development space, gains a near monopoly and then lets it stagnate for seven
years (sound familiar?).

(2)Just to clarify: I'm quoting from South Park here; using it as an
illustration of the simple-minded populism I see a lot of. I don't believe
Flash devs take HTML devs' jobs -- other way around, in fact.

~~~
jdietrich
By putting content inside a Flash applet you isolate it from the web. It
cannot be crawled. It cannot be deep linked to. It cannot be styled as the
user prefers, rendering it inaccessible to disabled users.

Flash is not a web technology. It is anti-web. It may as well be a zipped
.exe, served up over Gopher. The simple act of placing content within an SWF
file is tantamount to secession in itself.

~~~
amadiver
It can be crawled; moreso than a bit of <canvas> (canvas is used in a similar
manner to the way Flash is sometimes used). It can be deeplinked, just as
asyncronous js/HTML can be deeplinked (using a code library).

Video, audio, vector graphics and bitmaps all fail to meet your criteria for a
"web technology", and they're still a part of our web (and more growing more
important everyday). I'm not in favor of using Flash as an Html replacement,
but it works just as well as any other binary format on the web used to
deliver content.

That all said, I was objecting to the idea that we Flash _developers_ don't
want to be part of the web.

