
Ask HN: What work can be done quarantined with a toddler? - lovetocode
I am well aware that I have the privilege of working in a career that is not already obliterated by this crisis. I am very sympathetic to others who are more severely impacted by all this and the economic damage from this is immeasurable. I still have my own concerns as does everyone else...<p>What are the reasonable expectations of me as an employee working from home without childcare? I have a toddler and a first grader. The first grader is pretty much auto-pilot when given some daily academic structure. The toddler is the most difficult to manage which requires constant attention. As a software engineer and team lead I have both technical and administrative responsibilities. I can get some work done however, in my opinion, it is fair to assume that my productivity will _significantly_ diminish almost to the point of just keeping systems alive. Should I consider giving up my position as lead to someone who has no children during this crisis? My wife and I have decided to take some sort of split schedule during the workday but to put in a solid eight hours moonlighting the extra hours for an indefinite period of time is unsustainable. Fatigue will kick in inevitably. What are your thoughts on the matter?
======
throwaway12038
I'm in the exact same (3 and 6) position.

My neighbors and I have created a small isolation group. We all are sheltering
in place as if we were one family. It's been working out on sharing the load.
We had a discussion about the severity and likelihood of an infection in our
group and that if that happened we'd all be on quarantine because of the
shared exposure.

This has meant not sending my child to daycare even though it's open. It's
also meant getting up 2 hours earlier to get started earlier. I also sent a
schedule to my entire team so they knew exactly when I was teaching our kids
and when I'm available. We as a group are trying to balance our civic duty
with a rational understanding of this disease.

If I didn't have that I'd have emailed my team that I was reducing my hours
from 8-> 4-6 and I'd have been very clear. I cannot make up enough time to get
everything done. I'd have used vacation or sick leave where possible and
weathered this storm. If we stop doing the shared community I will do that.
And as a Lead, I'd be ok with anyone on my team doing that.

This disease does not affect everyone equally. We have to take on additional
burden for others where possible and be accommodating for those who can't.

~~~
stef25
Does nobody in that isolation group come in contact with anyone but people in
the group?

Cause all it takes is one of those to enter a supermarket, get infected and
your cordon sanitaire is busted. We specifically cancelled our babysitter and
cleaning person because of this (increasing our workload even more ...)

I still go out for groceries and a jog but at least the possible infections
points has been reduced from 3 to 1.

~~~
throwaway12038
As an update. Our state went to shelter in place and we have decided that our
setup cannot go on during a shelter in place order. So we have postponed it
for the duration.

~~~
NotSammyHagar
Thanks for updating us. I think that is unfortunately what makes sense. If I
had little kids I'd really want that chance for them to interact with others,
but it's a struggle to change that in the current situation. I have a teenager
and he's hating everything about staying home.

------
LukeEF
4 kids (11, 9, 7, 3). WFH for last 10 days. Wife is a journalist with a
national newspaper. And trying to get a esoteric database startup off the
ground (TerminusDB). Basically impossible.

Over the weekend I assembled a school in one of the rooms. Teacher's desk,
'lockers' and all. Allowed the kids to name it (Sugarcane Parish National
School) and made them line up to enter in the morning. Wife is class teacher
in the morning and I am principal with afternoon duties. Made eldest son head
boy. Enforced yard time. It was still chaos and I found it hard to do
concentrated work, but a good start is half the battle.

Tomorrow is another day.

~~~
ThisIsTheWay
Hang in there!

------
mikekij
I'm the founder and CEO of a software company that is remote-first. The
shutdown of schools due to COVID-19 has meant that many of our engineers now
have kids bouncing off the walls while they're trying to work. I have school
aged kids as well, and their constant presence is lovely, but a bit
distracting.

As a manger, I totally expect that peoples' productivity will suffer. This is
an unprecedented situation in our modern history, and the temporary decrease
in productivity should not make or break the success of your employer. Do what
you can, and don't drive yourself into the ground in the process. If your
manager is an empathetic human being, they will understand the situation.

------
epicureanideal
Some things that might provide the kids some distractions...

1) Nintendo Switch with Yoshi's Crafted World (easiest game for kids), buy an
extra controller because I think it only comes with 1... earliest age for this
would be about 3, 3.5, and would need some in-game assistance from their older
sibling (which the game provides mechanisms for)

2) iPads with games, including coloring games ... even a 2 year old can enjoy
iPad games

3) Netflix cartoons

4) Amazon Prime cartoons

5) Kinetic sand ([https://www.amazon.com/Only-Kinetic-Sand-
Folding-2lbs/dp/B01...](https://www.amazon.com/Only-Kinetic-Sand-
Folding-2lbs/dp/B01N75XNPS) plus an extra [http://amazon.com/Kinetic-Sand-
Pounds-Beach-Packaging/dp/B01...](http://amazon.com/Kinetic-Sand-Pounds-Beach-
Packaging/dp/B01a9K8KIUY), possibly doubling both for 2 kids)

6) MegaBlocks ([https://www.amazon.com/Mega-Bloks-80-Piece-Building-
Classic/...](https://www.amazon.com/Mega-Bloks-80-Piece-Building-
Classic/dp/B007GE75HY)) I would buy 2x per kid to ensure they have plenty to
build with

7) small dry erase boards and colored dry erase markers

8) YouTube Premium (remove the ads so they don't interrupt their cartoons)...
for example, they might like Blippi
[https://www.youtube.com/user/BlippiVideos](https://www.youtube.com/user/BlippiVideos)

I'm not saying little kids should play video games all the time, but it does
give them something entertaining to focus their attention on.

~~~
obruchez
We're talking about toddlers, here. I don't think many parents will be
comfortable giving their child a Nintendo Switch, an iPad, access to
Netflix/Amazon Prime/YouTube, etc.

Or maybe I'm out of touch with the reality of having a 3-year-old child? Mine
is only 2 and doesn't have any access to any screen. We plan to keep it that
way as long as possible.

~~~
jlengrand
Same until last week. Now we allow ourselves one old fashioned disney a day to
pull in those last 2 hours of work of the day. Rest is offline :). Good job
keeping the screens away

------
xenocyon
IMHO, at toddler age it's not possible to simultaneously work as childcare
provider / preschool teacher _and_ software engineer (or anything else for
that matter). That's why we _have_ childcare workers.

I agree with the comment saying to focus on working during your toddler's
sleep hours. Get done what you can and don't worry excessively about how this
isn't enough.

Employers need to dial down expectations during this crisis - it's the price
to pay for living in a society. If it's any consolation, the economy -
including your employer - is being affected in many ways and your reduced
productivity during this time is only one effect of many that none of us have
any control over.

~~~
throwaway46345
> Employers need to dial down expectations during this crisis - it's the price
> to pay for living in a society.

What would you do though when employers expect full working weeks, or for
people to take holiday time or unpaid leave if they can't work the full week.

~~~
the_jeremy
Raise hell. Everyone in your company with kids is going through the same
thing. Surely there have to be enough people in your company who can empathize
to say fuck that. Google has had walkouts over way less.

~~~
lonelappde
Why should your employer pay you 100% for 50% work? Are customers paying 100%
for 50% product? Why should everyone except your peer group take the haircut?

~~~
eggsmediumrare
Taking advantage of an opportunity to pay your workers 50% less if your
company is doing fine feels kinda greasy.

------
saalweachter
1\. Most people already have a perfectly good babysitter in their house which
cannot transmit COVID-19. Fire up some Mister Rogers and Reading Rainbow for a
couple of hours when you need some time.

2\. Have you tried occasionally putting the first grader in charge of the
toddler for a few spans of time? Obviously a first grader can't _babysit_ ,
but younger kids are usually happy to do what slightly-older kids tell them,
and slightly-older kids usually enjoy the devoted followers.

Regarding what you owe your employer, coworkers and team, ultimately you need
to talk to them about it. You may discover that even though you feel less
productive, everyone else is in roughly the same boat. Even those without
toddlers will be suffering from the normal WFH distractions and "disaster
fatigue" from checking the news every 20 minutes. Also give it some time, to
see what happens both in your work habits / stress and the outside world over
the next few weeks.

~~~
watwut
Not every toddler will stick watching that long. And when they do, there is
price to pay in terms of behavior after. Meaning, you get him hyper, nervous
and hard to control after two hours of watching.

------
lacker
A toddler plus a first-grader equals a full-time job watching them. If you're
splitting child care with your wife, I think it would be a reasonable
expectation for your output to be about 50% what it usually is.

It depends on your situation, but it doesn't mean you should give up your
position as team lead, necessarily. It could be hard for someone else to get
up to speed on how to handle your responsibilities; everyone's at least remote
and other people probably have distractions too. See if you can delegate half
of your work to other people, or push back on schedules, and keep the highest-
impact leadership work on your plate.

~~~
NanoWar
This! Thanks for the heads up.

------
lubujackson
5 y.o. and a 3 y.o. here. The key is to have one unique, anchoring activity
each day - paint a rock, cook a loaf of bread, something. Also, we took a tip
from preschool and create structured time. Kids playing in a room is one
thing, but put them in a room and say "ok guys, one hour of 'free time'!" and
suddenly they are excited to play.

Don't just leave them alone until there is a problem. Give them a task and a
reward - fold these towels or clean up your mess, then you can watch a show.

Have a bigger project. Organize your spices and ask them to help. Or wash the
windows, anything - getting them involved in something productive is necessary
for your mental health too, so you aren't just spending all your energy trying
to occupy their time aimlessly. Effecting real change (even in small ways) can
help make things feel less pointless.

------
jimmyswimmy
Shift your schedule. Use nap time to get work done. Work after they go to bed.

Putting the kids on a schedule has helped us tremendously but will have
limited efficacy for a toddler. If all else fails, balance screen time for the
kid against your use of time off. It's really hard.

~~~
larrymyers
I second the suggestion for time shifting. I'm in the same boat with young
kids, and I've started waking up 2 hours before they do. It allows me to get
much of my daily work out of the way before our house wakes up.

If you can find a way to condense your normal workload into 5 hour days it's
possible. With no commute, less meetings, and less distractions it's
manageable so far for me.

Beyond that being able to get the kids adjusted to a stable new routine is
crucial. If they know what to expect everyday you'll hopefully find your time
not getting sucked away by meltdowns and behavior issues you weren't
expecting.

Also, please don't feel guilty devoting time to your kids right now while
"School at Home" is the new normal. Being able to give my kids undivided
attention with their education has been a pleasantly positive upside of the
current situation. Find ways to enjoy it while you can.

Also, make sure you talk to your direct manager and leadership team, I hope
you find that everybody is trying to adjust right now. Not only are many of us
trying to juggle the new job of home school parent, there's also the added
mental and emotion stress that comes along the with the fact that we're
dealing with global pandemic that has upended our normal lives.

------
TallGuyShort
>> Should I consider giving up my position as lead to someone who has no
children during this crisis?

You may still be able to retain your leadership position (assuming you want to
keep it) and make this a win-win. Having someone else take over as lead can be
a hit to your own career progress, and I think it's likely they would still
struggle just stepping into all your new duties while everyone is distributed.

Don't abdicate entirely, and instead delegate certain responsibilities to team
members if you know they're in a position to step up a little right now. You
continue to lead through the crisis. Your team members can grow in a way that
doesn't overwhelm them either.

I don't know a lot about your situation, but I suspect this would be smoother
for everyone involved. Don't feel bad about this. Yes, we in Hacker News-
related industries are especially privileged right now. But your kids need
you, and everyone is making adjustments right now.

------
chachan
Same here, developer with a 2.5yo kid at home.

1\. I do not recommend screen time for kids -
[https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/12/how-does-screen-
time-...](https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/12/how-does-screen-time-affect-
kids-brains-the-first-results-of-a-landmark-study-are-alarming)

2\. I bought a dozen of books, like fair stories, animals where pictures can
put your kid to imagine, question and discovery new things. He spends a lot of
time here

3\. I bought a small speaker (kid-proof?) that I use to put playlists for
kids, with time he started singing the songs and that was just a way to spend
time for him 4\. I put ideas in his head like "wow, this is Spiderman" (while
showing it from my phone) then I bought a Spiderman toy and now is one of his
favorites toys 5\. Pla-doh, just make sure he understand is not something to
eat or to mix it with other objects 6\. Crayola stuff -
[https://www.crayola.com/athome](https://www.crayola.com/athome) 7\.
Audiobooks or podcasts for kids

Again, please do not use screen. I did it for few months as an option to let
him discover new topics and he woke up in the middle of the night crying and
screaming about stuff he watched

~~~
jimmaswell
I have to wonder if those effects are only from being glued to brainless
videos and other unproductive consumption rather than engaging with games that
promote problem solving and hand-eye coordination without constant
distractions and gambling mechanics - Nintendo is good for this.

------
lqet
I tried working at night, but found that to be quite difficult as you will be
_very_ tired from taking care of the child during the day. Working next to a
toddler (in my case: 12 months old) can work, but only if they have something
to play with which requires they full concentration. As soon as your child
realizes that you are doing something which seems to require _your_
concentration, it will stop whatever it is doing and will try to see what it
is.

I think the most promising thing to try is to go to bed together with them and
work in the morning until they are awake.

~~~
lanstin
Exactly. It's possible, but I did this for like six months or something and I
swear I aged five years.

------
saadatq
> I am well aware that I have the privilege of working in a career that is not
> already obliterated by this crisis. I am very sympathetic to others who are
> more severely impacted by all this and the economic damage from this is
> immeasurable. I still have my own concerns as does everyone else..

thank you for leading with this.

------
pragmatic
Productivity is going to decrease for the immediate future. That's a given.

I'm sure as a lead you've probably put in your share of unpaid overtime over
your career.

It's time to withdraw from that account.

I think it's a major problem in this country (if not many others) that we have
to go through this crises yet keep cranking away at work like nothing
happened.

Cut yourself some slack. Cut your team some slack (they will appreciate it).

We are all human. This is a world wide crisis. It's NOT business as usual.

Talk to your team, your boss, set reasonable expectations (especially for
yourself) or your going to burn out fast.

------
sifar
I was thinking about raising this subject too. I am in the same situation -
two kids 4 and 8. Me and my wife are both working from home.

Few things we do

1) wake up early, get most of the work done while they are asleep - usually
3-4 hrs. And another couple during their afternoon nap time.

2) split the rest of the day between the two of us so that one of us works,
and the other looks after/plays with them.

3) We have quite a few books/board games/legos in the house which helps. Also
give them drawing/coloring time. I would say stock up on coloring supplies and
give them a free hand.

4) we limit their TV time to 1-1.5 max hr per day. No other screen time.

5) With a toddler it is really difficult as they need constant attention. One
thing we do is to encourage the elder one to involve the younger one in his
pretend play. That works out for some time :).

Even with all this, along with the household chores, it is really tough to
make it through the day.

One more suggestion is to clearly delineate your work time from your home
time. Avoid working while having coffee/lunch/snack, talking to your wife.
These small moments sap into you which you could otherwise use to recharge.
Over the day, over many days, they add up.

------
grosales
Same boat as you. I have a 9 month old and a 2.5 year old. Wake up at
6am-7:30ish am to do some work. Then help with the first one until 8am and
continue until 12:30pm (6hrs) Then I resume at 8pm-10pm for 8 hrs. Wife does
12:30pm-5:30pm and then does 8:30pm to 11:30pm. It's rough,.but when we are
tired we will take a PTO or two. We are extremely lucky we can at least do
this. It's rough but, I am learning much more about my kids and I am enjoying
them as much as I can while this lasts. It's also a good time to potty train!
To beat fatigue, make sure you sleep at least 7hrs and eat well. Go out to
walks with your kids (just to get some air) or play in the yard. Good luck, we
will all get through this and will be much better because of it.

------
JabavuAdams
You're not going to get more than 2-3 hours of work done, sorry. You might be
able to do an hour or two after the kids are asleep, but then you won't be
able to do chores and eventually you'll get tired/irritable/immuno-suppressed.

------
oblib
I became a single parent when my daughter was 14 months old. I'll offer your
child comes first no matter what and toddlers need constant attention. There's
no getting around that.

At that time I subcontracted work with a few small companies that relied
heavily on the work I did. I had to explain to them there were laws against my
putting her in daycare when she was ill.

Being a kid she'd get fevers from all kinds of crud brought into the daycare
by parents who'd dose their kids with tylenol before dropping them off at the
daycare, but I refused to do that. This happened about once every 4-6 weeks.

None of those companies offered to pay me more so I could afford a nanny to
care for my daughter at home during work hours, but all complained they were
severely affected when I didn't complete the work on their schedule and they
all made a lot of money off my work, far more than enough to cover those
costs.

Such is life. I didn't feel it necessary for me to worry about them anymore
than they worried about me and my daughter and our situation. I have no
regrets about putting her first.

In your case, whomever you're working for needs to adjust their expectations
to the realities of your situation and you need to be at your best to keep up
with just your one toddler.

"As a software engineer and team lead I have both technical and administrative
responsibilities."

Caring for your children supersedes everything else, and by a long shot.
Especially right now.

------
topkai22
I think one of the hardest things about working from home with the kids there
is having to make the choice between parenting and working. Having done WFH
with small kids at least one day a week for years, you have to change your and
your kids expectations about what is acceptable and about what your
relationship means when you are working.

You might need to do some "bad parenting"\- allowing way more TV/electronics
time than otherwise allowed, ignoring thing you might otherwise correct, and
not engaging as the loving parent you want to be all the time. We've had to go
this route in our household, and its been tough.

Enlist your first grader in care as well- my 2 year old LOVES following her
brother around, and my first grader loves responsibility (to a degree). See if
you can get your first grader to keep your toddler out of your workspace for
an hour or two a day. If you have the space, extensively childproof an area
where they need less supervision.

As for being a lead- one of my proudest accomplishments when I'm leading teams
is to make them self-sufficient, and one of the greatest difficulties is
letting go of work. At least in my world, the best teams have maximal
authority and scope pushed to individuals. Can your team step up to do more on
their own, especially the technical work? Possibly not, but I definitely
wouldn't give up your lead position unless you find it necessary personally.

These are.. interesting... times. There are no perfect answers, and all
answers require trade off and sacrifice. I hope I helped though.

------
lanstin
What I did is go to sleep when the toddler does and then wake up at four and
do coding work till toddler woke up. Then keep naps going for as long as
possible. Work a bit (email/communication) in the evening to be prepped to be
productive at four. (And mind you, I'm not an early waker, but desperation
breeds solutions). Also, can the first grader give you blocks of time when
they are in charge of the toddler? My younger kids worshipped the elders at
that age.

------
gwbas1c
All kids are different: My youngest is currently a toddler, and the area where
I work is large and there's so many toys that I just let her roam around. Most
of the time she plays with toys but sometimes she needs to sit in my lap. Even
when my wife is home watching the kids, I'll bring my youngest up to give my
wife a break.

When my oldest was a toddler she demanded constant attention, and she's still
that way. The only way to not give her constant attention is to have her play
with another child.

One thing to consider is to ask your first grader to watch your toddler, and
work in a room that's large enough where you are present but not stepping on
each other. Most of school is babysitting anyway, so you can probably dedicate
2 to 3 hours a day for academics and be fine.

Also, don't forget that toddlers need naps! My wife is an essential worker, so
when she's at work I can get about an hour of uninterrupted time when my kids
are down for a nap.

------
Waterluvian
I've got 400sq ft of deck to clean and repaint and two very curious boys, 1
and 3. They play in the yard while I clean and prep. Sometimes the oldest
comes up to help. It would have frustrated the older me who felt like there
isn't enough free time to dawdle. But now I see the hyper slow progress as a
form of meditation. I'm actually no longer looking forward to it being done.

But at least this will be the spring I made the deck beautiful.

~~~
matt_the_bass
I get that. Yesterday I built a compost seive to go over my wheelbarrow. My
almost 7 y/o helped me. It only took 3x longer than by myself. But I loved it.

------
btkramer9
On a similar note can anyone provide insight on what's possible when working
from home with kids aged newborn to preschool? As someone who would like to
work from home and start a family in the near future it looks like I may need
to choose one or the other (stay at home parent or remote worker).

Ideally if I could do both, I could me more involved in my child's life and
not sacrifice income. Maybe a part time remote job is doable?

~~~
VLM
My experience with WFH when my teens were much younger, is that a laptop with
100% wifi is required, and toddlers building lego or similar isn't really any
more distracting than an open office environment. Probably less distracting in
that toddlers are somewhat more predictable than coworkers.

If you work in an open office environment you'll expect WFH will be hyper
productive due to lack of distractions and then get very disappointed that
you'll lose 50% of those gains by toddler interruption. In practice, note
you're still ahead of the open office people talking about sports and Trump
derangement syndrome and plans for partying this weekend and sex and
relationships and pop culture for hours on end, just not going to be as far
ahead of them as you expected/hoped.

You have to get good at short term budgeting of attention. Its rare to have a
license plate stamping job of continuous 100% effort required for precisely 8
hours per day or whatever. Work on diagnosing the tricky bug report or new
architecture design during nap time after lunch, I had a solid hour or more to
concentrate uninterrupted. I can do comparatively mindless "TPS report header
changes" for hours in the morning while refereeing toddler arguments about who
took my lego piece. I can write a perfectly good status report email during a
Thomas the Tank Engine episode, for example. I find the mandatory time
discipline is actually useful in that it prevents wasting too much time on
things that don't technically require the optimization. Could I spend an extra
two hours on that power point that management is going to completely modify
anyway? Yeah, I could, and in the office I would, but at home, the kids want
me to play catch for ten minutes outside, and it was just busywork anyway.

In the office my doctor advised me a long time ago to stand up and walk around
every hour for leg circulation. I've also avoided carpal tunnel that way, or
maybe its the weight lifting. At home I probably spent 1/12 to 1/6 of my time
supervising the kids. Productivity really didn't change. For your own health
you should probably be taking breaks often anyway, so having the kids around
isn't that bad. Nobody ever complained about being too healthy and not taking
breaks is unhealthy.

~~~
hermitdev
> In the office my doctor advised me a long time ago to stand up and walk
> around every hour for leg circulation. I've also avoided carpal tunnel that
> way, or maybe its the weight lifting.

I constantly drink herbal (decaffeinated) tea or water throughout the workday.
This forces me to get up and move about every 30-45 minutes or so to either
refill my mug/water bottle or use the bathroom. I'm still fairly young (in my
late 30s), but have already had a number of issues with joints/tendons. I was
approaching carpal tunnel while I was still in college (spent +16 hours a day
in front of a computer). Luckily, some light exercise helped back then. Now
I've arthritis in pretty much my entire spine. It's a real pain, but getting
up and walking around every 30-45 minutes really helps a lot with my pain. It
seems to also help with posture as I tend to slouch more the longer I've had
my butt in my chair.

------
gwbas1c
I'm going to add another comment here:

I realized that my kids are used to having our (me and my wife's) full
attention when they're home. Whenever we do chores on the weekend, one of us
usually plays with the kids while the other does the chore; or we do mundane
chores while the kids play around us.

Otherwise, our kids are in daycare full time during the week. We often drop
them off late or pick them up early. Even if we do a staycation, we still drop
them off for a few hours a day so they can see their friends.

My point is that now that our kids are adjusting to being home, we're training
them that they need to give us our space. This morning my 4-year-old daughter
was in my office, and I just directly told her that I need to work and she has
to play quietly by herself. She accepted that.

~~~
Fire-Dragon-DoL
Oh, that explains why I'm not seeing the same problem as other parents. My kid
is 20 months old (almost 2),but it's not impacting me dramatically as some
other people. Granted she is a problem sometimes, but I work from home every
day, she seem to give me some space, or come play on my lap without actually
needing my interaction (I love that by the way).

Obviously, I don't have TWO toddlers, which seems even more scary

------
agentultra
I am in the same boat. 4 year old and a very active 7 year old. My partner, as
I'm lucky to have one, is also home full time as her place of business has
been temporarily shuttered. I'm a software engineer and she teaches fitness
and dance.

Between us I think we're doing okay. We're not going hardcore on structure.
We're being relaxed on TV/videogame time (we usually only watch TV on weekends
for an hour at most and video games are usually played together). We swap
responsibility around. I take breaks to horse around with the kids in the yard
or go for a walk around the neighborhood. We share meal preparation, chores,
etc. While I need longer stretches of focused time I also dedicate a part of
the day for household distractions.

We're also keeping the neighbors in the loop. Some of the parents, such as
myself, have offered to take the kids out for a regular "recess" during the
afternoon. We keep our distance as usual but go for walks, kick a ball in the
field, count birds, have races, etc.

And at work I keep the team up to date on our situation. Everyone is in the
same boat more or less. Some have high-risk dependents. Some have kids. Some
are simply not comfortable working from home full time.

What I've learned about working from home for a period of about 5 years was:
don't worry about the structure of your day. Wake up at a regular time, work
out if you can, and realize that nobody can see you -- only your results. You
can find a routine that works for you and yours. I hope most employers are
smart enough to know that for some people this may mean less output but it can
also mean more. Flexibility and responsibility are key. As long as you're
communicating with your team I don't see the problem of fitting work around
life. I find that without the stress and expectations of being "on the clock"
enables me to have more opportunities for my mind to wander which often leads
to insights that solve my problems that I'm working on.

------
pseudoramble
This is a team member/team lead perspective. So this may not be what you're
interested in.

I think the team members themselves should be fine. In normal conditions, they
should mostly be able to function and keep moving forward without strict and
constant guidance. And we're all feeling some degree of pressure right now. So
at least team mates should get that leeway will be needed.

A few points:

* Be sure to be clear with the team. It's reasonable to need some leeway, but just state it clearly. You may even get volunteers to handle some of your typical technical responsibilities. Good for them, good for you!

* Give other team mates leeway too. Odds are they are in similar situations. So if somebody seems behind or there are just more issues than normal, don't assume bad intent. It's probably similar to your situation.

------
kick
Have you tried giving the toddler something to do? A lot of the problem with
young children "requiring constant attention" tends to just be a lack of
things for them to pay attention to.

One way to try and mitigate it is by giving them a GBA or DS (preferably the
former, because they're harder to break, and certainly not a 3DS for a variety
of reasons). This also has the really neat benefit of helping them bootstrap
reading skills.

Movies usually don't work, because anything that doesn't require you to move
(even just your hands, like with a handheld console) will cause restlessness.

You can probably take a few hours at first to teach her how to pronounce
letters and put them together if you haven't already, after they figure out
how to read, they require significantly less immediate attention.

~~~
reverend_gonzo
Giving toddlers video games or movies stunts their brain development, their
attention span, and is a terrible idea.

The thing that infants and toddlers want and need more than anything is loving
attention from their parents or other adult figures.

~~~
kick
_Giving toddlers video games or movies stunts their brain development, their
attention span, and is a terrible idea._

There isn't substantial evidence for the view that video games stunt brain
development in toddlers, and they've been shown to have a positive effect for
older children:

[https://doi.org/10.1542/peds.2013-4021](https://doi.org/10.1542/peds.2013-4021)

Further, given that video game therapy has been shown to be successful in
mitigating ADHD, your claim of video games universally negatively impacting
attention is also patently false.

 _The thing that infants and toddlers want and need more than anything is
loving attention from their parents or other adult figures._

This is practically parenting-magazine pseudoscience, and taken to its
implicit conclusion is incredibly harmful. Toddlers do _not_ need constant
attention from authority figures. They need _some_ , not a helicopter, and
they need external stimulus.

Toddlers are not infants.

------
unohoo
I am dealing with the exact same situation handling a 7 year and a 2 year old.
Its actually worse in my case since my wife is a healthcare professional and
has to be at her job - so its effectively just me looking after the 2 kids
during the day.

I tried working 1 week from 6-12 in the night, but was exhausted since I still
had to wake up when kids woke up. This week, I am trying to do 3 hours before
they wake up, another hour when the younger one naps and then finally 2 more
hours once my wife is back home. Several folks in my reporting chain have
similar aged kids or a tad bit older, so they are empathetic to the situation.

My productivity is definitely impacted, but then these are unchartered waters.
I am just trying to stay sane through the process :-)

------
stef25
Here's our plan for both parents working from home with a 1 and 3 year old, to
get 16hrs of work done.

\- First shift: 6 AM - 12PM

\- Second shift: 12PM - 6PM

\- Third shift: 6PM - 8PM

\- Fourth shift: 8PM - 10PM

You could do 4x shifts of 4 hrs, alternate the schedules each day, whatever
works best.

Getting up at 5:30 may sound harsh but it's not that bad if you all you have
to do is grab a coffee and head to your desk. Personally I love early starts.

Don't try working and taking care of kids at the same time, it's pretty much
pointless. They also deserve better than just being dumped in front of TV.

Plan & cook meals ahead. The quicker it's ready and the less cleanup the
better.

------
deeths
For the first-grader (and some toddlers), you could try kids audio books. Most
kids love them and it can keep them entertained for a long time and more
mentally engaged than TV. Sometimes my kids just sit and listen, and other
times they do other activities while they listen. Even if they get bored of
the audio book, I've noticed they are much more likely to stay focused for
long periods doing other activities like drawing or playing with toys if
there's an audio book in the background. You can find all the children's
classics in audio books. If you have an audible subscription, you can
sometimes find whole children's book series for a single credit (like 19 hours
of the Ramona Quimby collection). You can also check them out of many
municipal libraries online. Children's podcasts are also good, and there are
educational options there too.

You could also give them some screen time, but try to keep it more engaging.
For instance, video calls with their friends(clearly won't work long with the
toddler though) or physical activities led by an instructor on the screen like
kids yoga (Cosmic Kids Yoga is good) or dance.

Also, anyone who's used to teaching dance, martial arts, physical training,
music, foreign language tutoring, etc is really struggling now with the
quarantines. Many of them are trying to continue classes and one-on-one
instruction over video (or would be willing to), and they could definitely use
the extra money right now if your kids have been doing one of those activities
or have something they're interested in and willing to follow on the screen.

While engaging screen time is not as good for them as real interaction, it
seems that it is much better for them than just staring at the screen.
[https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/07/160715115023.h...](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/07/160715115023.htm)
[https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/desc.12430](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/desc.12430)
[https://thriving.childrenshospital.org/video-chat-babies-
gra...](https://thriving.childrenshospital.org/video-chat-babies-
grandparents/)

------
D13Fd
Consider hiring a babysitter to help if that's still an option in your area.
That's what we did, starting today. It's working out so far, and it's
significantly less expensive than our daycare was.

I found that there was overwhelming supply vs. limited demand, in my area at
least, so it was super easy to find someone. There were a number of recently
laid off people who seem eager for the work even if you can't afford high
wages, so it's a win-win. You both get to be productive and earn money.

~~~
shostack
"still allowed" vs "increases risk of transmission" is important to consider
here. Unless it's a live in nanny that is sheltering in place with you, then
you are increasing the risk of infection for your household, or potentially
many outside it if you are say, asymptomatic and transmit to the babysitter
who then goes out to other places or households.

I realize for some this is a choice between doing what is necessary to not get
fired so you don't lose food and shelter. For many on HN that is not the case.

------
taf2
You need to call the paw patrol. Focus on the work you can get done not the
hours spent at a desk. Take plenty of breaks and spend it with your toddler.
Having a 11,9 and 3 year old - all I can say is enjoy your insane toddler
before they grow up. Use nap time and appease the little monster with tv to
get work done. Then take breaks and play with them

------
catherd
I know some people in the Philippines who normally do office task outsourcing,
call center work, or language instruction who would absolutely love to get a
few dollars an hour to teach or babysit kids via teleconference. And by
absolutely love, I mean they would be able to buy food to eat next week.

Not sure how well teleconferencing would keep a toddler distracted, but you'd
probably have varying degrees of success with older kids.

Could put people in touch if there is interest.

------
x0x0
So, I don't think you're going to like this answer.

My assumption is corona lockdowns -- whether formal everyone stays at home
nationally, devolving to the responsible states, or devolving even further to
responsible employers -- is going to last at least 6 months. We'll see some
data when China attempts to relax restrictions. I'd also assume that all the
stuff folks normally do to for their kids for the summer period while they
aren't in school -- ie all the camps -- are basically not going to happen, so
you're going to be doing this until _at least_ labor day.

As a cxx, we can / are definitely expecting some choppiness over the next
couple weeks while everyone figures out how things work with us all working
from home with the entire family home.

Given the economic guesses above, an inability to put in a reasonable workday
is likely going to be a problem for you given the length of time I'm guessing
we're going to be doing this. It also depends on how well capitalized your
employer is.

Second, we (not saying my company, but definitely the US) are going to see
layoffs. My company has already frozen hiring, to the obvious intent of not
having layoffs and making cash last as long as possible. The US already has
skyrocketing unemployment claims and an easily visible ongoing devastation of
small business. The Republicans in the senate appear to have no interest in
directly and immediately replacing the wages of everyone the government and/or
corona are not allowing to work. This adds up to, most likely, a whopping
recession. You're a family man, so you need to figure out how to keep yourself
out of the line of fire, and my advice would be if that means working tired...
you should work tired. NB: I'm not saying this is right or fair, just probably
the best plan unless you have large cash savings.

At my company, we're figuring out how to support parents and, to be honest, we
don't have a solid plan right now. A lot hinges on how deep the recession is
going to be. We're already pricing in large sales falls. Again -- as mentioned
above -- short term choppiness / reduction of work is fine, but if it is long
term, _and_ corona requires we work at home for an extended period of time,
we're not in a financial position to weather a recession, pay full wages, and
have a large falloff in work output.

~~~
dominotw
> directly and immediately replacing the wages of everyone the government
> and/or corona are not allowing to work

wonder what happens if govt just pays everyone for 6 months ( per your
estimate). Wouldn't it just merely cause inflation since no actual goods are
being allowed to be produced and people will be willing to offer more and more
money for limited supplies = inflation?

~~~
x0x0
You can come at this two ways, I think:

1\. We replace lost income. First, inflation hawks have been mostly wrong.
Second, we are (somewhat) allowing production of goods to continue, while
shutting down customer-facing (ie service) workers. So I suspect the effects
will be limited. Second, we'll soon have serologic tests; those folks can just
work.

2\. We don't replace lost income. We probably have the highest unemployment
filings on record, and devastate the lives of folks who work in bars /
restaurants / coffee shops / movie theatres / gyms / salons / etc. Their
immediate inability to pay much of anything rapidly ricochets through
landlords / other goods and services and contaminates small businesses. Many
SMBs rapidly lay off lots of their employees and start failing. Our economy
hits 20% unemployment rapidly. And btw, this isn't just left-leaning hippies
like me; it's also folks like Steve Mnuchin [1].

I'm not sure we're in a place where we get to pick good, better, best; I think
we get to pick least bad.

[1] [https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/17/politics/steven-mnuchin-
unemp...](https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/17/politics/steven-mnuchin-unemployment-
warning-coronavirus/index.html)

~~~
dominotw
> . Second, we are (somewhat) allowing production of goods to continue, while
> shutting down customer-facing (ie service) workers. So I suspect the effects
> will be limited.

So people will still have the extra money left over thats not being spent on
'customer facing services' what will happen to that money ?

> Second, we'll soon have serologic tests; those folks can just work

I am assuming after 6 months like your original comment implied ?

> everyone stays at home nationally, devolving to the responsible states, or
> devolving even further to responsible employers -- is going to last at least
> 6 months.

I am mostly talking about next 6 months, not post six month scenarios.

~~~
x0x0
In response to the first, I don't think the bulk of $ is spent on things that
are shutdown, ie restaurants/gym/stylist/etc. I think bulk is spent on
rent/mortgage (no supply change), groceries (very limited), meds (ditto).

re: serologic: we still have widespread factory production. It's extremely
useful to know who is immune.

------
jmcgough
I think most people would be sympathetic to your situation, and are having
their lives impacted in different ways right now by the pandemic.

Have you shared these thoughts with your boss, or with your team? They might
be able to help you come up with a way to share the burden until life returns
to normalcy. Definitely delegate as much as you can - you're right, you'll
burn out if you have to be a full time parent as well as a full time team
lead.

------
commandlinefan
Well, if it's any consolation: my kids are teenagers, so are fully autonomous
(I have to make sure they get out of bed and eat something, but that's about
it), but I have many, many co-workers who are in the same position as you. I,
and from what I can tell everybody else where I work, am sympathetic to the
difficult position people like you are in, and are doing our best to pick up
some of the slack when and where we can.

------
oxymoran
I have an almost three year old I have been watching by myself while working
full time as an auto insurance claims adjuster for the past week. It’s not as
hard as I imagined but would be much more difficult if I had to spend a lot of
time on the phone because there is no chance of getting quiet for more than a
few minutes at a time. I bribe him with fruit snacks and go play with him
every couple hours and so far so good.

------
simplecto
Do not give up your role.

Managing though this (while putting family first) will make you the leader you
need to be (for everyone).

I think you are on the right track with "divide and conquer" strategy.

Delegate out that which cannot be done on a mobile app or in a phone call.

My own experience is that it is a checkerboard of family-time and business-
time.

Thing is that we all have a good laugh when the little ones are goofing off in
the background -- it is a shared reality that we can only laugh at.

------
jkestner
It's hard to generalize advice; everyone's kids are different. One of many
things that frees up some time for us is FaceTime with grandparents. Teaching,
reading stories, etc. We also have a lot of kids' books on tape. Nothing wrong
with PBS Kids either. I think that everyone's expectations can loosen a bit
right now, as parents, as workers.

Have you asked your boss what reasonable expectations are right now?

------
bluedays
Find peace in the fact that they won't fire you because they don't want to do
interviews right now and just do the best that you can.

------
dominotw
Yea that sounds like tough situation, i went through it and its impossible to
focus even when you aren't tending to the toddler.

> Should I consider giving up my position as lead to someone who has no
> children during this crisis?

Yea if you think this is a vaible possibility with your employer. I would say,
do this for sure.

------
semessier
I had a pretty good and productive time so far with a baby that frequently
needs attention and is noisy. Output including programming is _above
silent/regular office environment. Trying to reasons why this is the case,
maybe ADHD plays a role.

------
anonymous93747
We’re doing a split schedule, with playing alone time at the transitions.
Starting with just 15 minutes at a time, but hoping that we can increase that
to something that doesn’t burn us out before we get burnt out.

------
throwaway_pdp09
[https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pinzhi-Clear-Flower-Display-
Wooden/...](https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pinzhi-Clear-Flower-Display-
Wooden/dp/B074RKZY9W/)

Repurposed

------
atemerev
I have the same situation, and I mostly work at night, and put around 4 hours
(but I am more productive with it than with 8 hours in the office -- zero
distraction helps). Meetings are a problem, though.

------
DoreenMichele
Arrange your house to be as safe as possible for the toddler and to provide
them food independence. Make meals that everyone consumes, but keep snacks and
drinks on hand that the toddler can manage on their own and which you are
comfortable letting them consume to their heart's content.

Waiting on the child hand and foot to feed them and control their diet seems
to be a large part of the burden. I never did that.

Kid snacks go on the lowest shelves of the pantry and the lowest shelves of
the fridge door.

Let them have some limited amounts of junkie snacks. Otherwise, keep healthy
stuff around that's easy for them to get themselves and don't stringently
police what they eat. Let them get it themselves.

Explain that if they spill something, they should come get you so you can
clean it up and they will not be in trouble. Do not be cross with them when
they come get you. Thank them for getting you and clean it up.

I kept ten percent real fruit juice Capri Sun in the house. My toddlers
learned to stick the straw in themselves. If it fell over, it dribbled a bit.
It wasn't a big spill.

For a time, I kept hot dogs in the lowest shelf of the fridge door. Toddlers
need more fats than adults and I could remember eating cold Vienna sausage out
of the can as a toddler and liking it.

I would split the hotdog pack in half and put one half in an upper shelf out
of reach. I would pre open the other so it was possible for a toddler to open
it and put it in the bottom shelf of the fridge door.

I sometimes kept cold leftover noodles in the fridge and parmesan or Romano
cheese. Cold noodles and cheese is a decent snack and my kid liked it.

Make long homemade tapes or play lists or whatever. I was working with tape
recordings off the TV.

I had purchased videos that played for as little as 30 minutes. I got
constantly interrupted if I let them watch those. A six hour tape of curated
content meant I was comfortable letting them be only lightly supervised and
they actually left me alone for more than fifteen minutes.

I would put a tape in and set a fresh snack and drink on the coffee table so
they had easy access.

When the youngest got old enough to fight with the older child, I spent a week
sitting on the floor with them actively teaching them how to play together so
they would stop fighting over toys and the like.

If the kids get along, they have unfettered access to reasonably healthy
snacks and they are kept safely entertained in a physically safe home, it's
possible to sometimes be left alone by them.

This was often the only way I got any sleep.

I wouldn't quit. It's a global pandemic. Other people are not likely to be
more productive than you. Kids or no kids, everyone is finding this
challenging.

------
namelosw
God I don't have kids yet but it gives me huge amount of anxiety for just
reading this thread. The Typewriter scene in Shining keeps popping up in my
head...

Hope you guys all good.

------
nopinsight
Would hiring someone known to be careful and can stay safe from COVID to help
babysit the toddler be a possibility?

Many are looking for jobs now. It could be good for both sides.

~~~
Insanity
I don't think anyone should be considered safe from the virus, they can always
get it after you have hired them.

~~~
DoofusOfDeath
How about a live-in nanny? That might allow you to get bye with just a one-
time additional opportunity for infection. After that, he/she would be a
member of your household for the rest of the quarantine.

~~~
igetspam
We just put our nanny on furlough. I'm going to keep sending her partial
payment because we really value her. We not-quite-jokingly offered to have her
move in for a while but she has kids and that's not really possible. If she
didn't have kids, we'd actually be a lot less hesitant about having her come.
Since hers are 13 and 16 and are both in the "I don't care about things" phase
of life, we don't trust that they won't be an avenue for possible infection.
My wife has immune issues and my daughter is 2.5, which means it's not worth
any additional risk. I let my coworkers know that we'll be load sharing on
parenting duties (my wife has chronic pain issues or it probably wouldn't be
necessary) and that I'll do my best to not let it impact productivity too
much. Fortunately _everything_ is being delayed so my launch is pushed out
too.

------
a3n
What work? Data gathering. Put sensors on your kid, to track movement and
stillness. And whatever else you can think of.

It's a time/motion study!

------
teh_infallible
Welcome to having to actually parent your children. It’s actually a difficult
job that you can’t pawn off on a low-paid intern.

------
burlesona
TLDR; little kids (including toddlers) don't like boredom, but it is possible
to teach them to make their own fun without relying on you for entertainment.
If you do that, you'll have a lot more time for yourself.

I've got three young kids, and I'm in the same situation you're in. I'll spare
you the long backstory of how I came to this conclusion, but over time I've
learned that there's a big gap between the amount of attention young children
want and will ask for (which is effectively infinite) versus what they
actually need to be happy.

The real problem is they're humans, they don't like being bored, they don't
know how to deal with it on their own, but they learn really fast that you are
a great source of entertainment. Once I came to see the problem this way, I
realized I needed to help teach and train them to self-entertain when they are
bored. That turned out to be easier than I thought, and it helped _a lot_ with
the problem of being able to get work done with kids around.

The best way I found to train them is essentially to create a suitable play
environment (in our little apartment this is just the kids room, with anything
I don't want them getting into placed on high shelves in the closet), set out
a small sample of toys or activity (like paper and crayons, or stuffed
animals), and then just sit there. If you are more boring than the stuffed
animals, they'll start playing with the stuffed animals :)

Repeat this over time and they get much better at playing happily on their own
for long stretches of time.

Note that the younger they are, the more you need to be physically around for
this to work. If you just plop a toddler in a play pen and leave, they're not
likely to make it very long, because they also have separation anxiety and
don't like being alone. They need the reassurance of an adult (or older child
may also work) nearby to feel safe. But once they feel safe, their only
problem is boredom. So by being around but extremely boring, you help them
learn to solve this problem on their own.

Being boring doesn't mean cold-smoldering the kids, just kind of politely
humor them without really engaging. I've found that "taking a nap" is
extremely effective - just sit and rest, they know what a nap is, they don't
take it personally. Sometimes you even get an actual power nap in haha.

To some degree you also have to put up with whining and fussing during the
adjustment period. They're likely to feel frustration that their entertainment
source has failed. Also, doing this training will probably be boring for you
too. But the silver lining is once they start to play autonomously it actually
becomes very entertaining to watch!

One last thought: as far as work goes, I think you (and your employer) will
also need to accept that a strictly focused 9-5 schedule isn't realistic.
Young kids need help with basic needs (food, bladder, hygiene), and there's
nothing you can do that will get them to chill out autonomously for 9 hours
straight. But if you teach them to self-entertain, even a toddler can go for
60-90 minutes, which is enough to get a lot of things done (and bigger kids
can go longer).

The way I see it, I can either get up really early and knock out a ~3 hour
focus block before they're up, or stay up late and do it after they're asleep.
I generally prefer late. That's my key productivity time, for things that
require more than one full hour of dedicated focus to make good progress.

I know it's hard. Good luck!

