

How we chose and furnished an office the Y Combinator way - mlmilleratmit
http://blog.cloudant.com/desks/

======
mlmilleratmit
As the Cloudant Founder (YCS08) that opened the Seattle office, I really enjoy
the diversity of this comment stream. I wrote this post because I thought it
would provide some insight into our company, and because others may find it
useful. We have been exceptionally busy building product, revenue and team.
After fiddling with the prototype desk in my backyard, we ended up with
something economical, fast, ergonomic and flexible. You may say we have a
"scalable" desk design.

A bit more about the desks, to address some of the comments below. We can move
the desks around easier than "L" shaped ikea frames and have tried multiple
positions. I prefer to gaze at a brick wall for focus, others like to gaze out
the window or into the room. The desks can be moved in the center of the room
and "stacked" like a big lab bench for group hacking. They can also be
assembled into mega "L" shaped desks if you need to, say, sort through 2 years
of receipts. Getting the height right was a big challenge, and we didn't
scrimp on chairs. We also have screws in the feet to adjust the height of the
desks if needed. Laptop heat is a non-issue so far, and they don't require
coasters.

Per the bigger picture, I'm glad to discuss/listen on the relative merits of
team building, brand identity/pride, and balancing running a surprisingly
large global data service if that's of interest. We did this for many reasons,
but a major portion was to have some fun in the (exceptionally rare) off
hours. I would say that building something mechanical and getting the chance
to do manual labor is all too rare in my life, and something from which I
derive deep satisfaction.

Also, I can't say this enough -- we got a huge assist from friends and family
of Cloudant.

~~~
xfax
Kudos to you and the team for caring about the culture.

People tend to forget that the company culture - shared interests and
activities being a big part of it - plays a huge part in shaping the quality
of the product/service. In addition, it helps build a sense of identity and
pride among employees, which is especially important for a fast growing
company.

Taking some time off to work on a project like this might actually provide
huge returns which are not immediately apparent.

------
TwiztidK
Typically when I see door desks, the whole point is to be as cheap and as
quick as possible (ie take a big, flat door and throw it on some cinder blocks
or makeshift legs). In this case, it seems like those in charge of furnishing
the office were more hung up on the novelty of a door desk than any possible
cost savings, so they spent way too much time doing things like staining and
varnishing, etc. when they could've just bought proper looking desks in the
first place.

------
iuguy
> We decided to build instead of buy

Meaning they decided to procrastinate instead of working on their
product/service.

> we instead chose to purchase solid core doors from Home Depot (~$40 each)

Meaning they instead chose to spend more on something that wasn't designed to
be a desk than an actual desk.

From [1]:

 _Ergonomically, door desks leave a lot to be desired. Keyboards were usually
too high. Typing for hours could be uncomfortable. And those angle brackets
have sharp edges; accidentally scrapping exposed flesh against those was a
mistake that wouldn't be repeated._

[1] - [http://glinden.blogspot.co.uk/2006/01/early-amazon-door-
desk...](http://glinden.blogspot.co.uk/2006/01/early-amazon-door-desks.html)

~~~
pg
HN has gotten so nasty. I now find that when I click on "comments" I
unconsciously brace myself to find this type of comment at the top of the
thread.

~~~
jonstjohn
Absolutely. It is so easy to poke holes in somebody project, blog post, etc,
and takes some contrarian angle. I just don't quite understand why they get
voted up to the top.

~~~
xfax
It might be because people on HN are beacons of productivity who find that
these atrocious projects take away from the reams of value that could be
created otherwise by working on the product.

This is why they don't read news sites during the work day. Oh wait ...

------
namella
It appears you spent a little bit too much time worrying about stuff that
doesn't matter.

------
webjunkie
Seriously? Put most tables facing the wall? Who wants to look at a wall and
have no screen privacy?

~~~
andrew_wc_brown
Their at work, they're suppose to be looking at their screen not out the
window.

Their at work, they're suppose to be working on their work not watching
netflix.

I think its a nice setup. My only concern would be my laptop overheating on
those wooden desks.

~~~
derefr
They are professionals--they're supposed to be delivering value for the
company. If watching netflix helps them think, let them watch some goddamn
netflix. Butts-in-seats is a horrible metric; butts-in-seats-with-code-editor
focused even moreso.

------
Zimahl
I'm not sure if I'd be all that happy hacking away on a door desk. It's too
rectangular and even with a good ergonomic chair I find my elbows aren't
supported with my keyboard. I've worked on desks of similar size and shape and
they just don't cut it.

I prefer a corner desk with a rounded, concave cutout. I can imagine with a
bit of competitive pricing I could put one together for less than $100. I'd
probably go with a birch or maple veneer plywood and stain it to the right
color.

To be fair though, I'm a hobbyist woodworker and a lot of people don't have
the inclination, patience, or skill to build a desk. There is also little
point in DIY if what you can buy can be tax deducted as a business expense.

------
jaytaylor
All that time and energy you spent making your own desks could have been
poured into your product instead. Just saying.

~~~
soulcutter
Team-building, pride in your surroundings, and creating a culture all pay off
huge in productivity. I see it as an investment, not a waste.

------
laurajean
It says a lot about the work ethic of a company when they are willing to
dedicate a weekend of their own time to build something with their own two
hands. It shows that the team can problem solve together on many levels, has
common sense, and that they enjoy working hard. As an outside member of this
construction effort, I, the "fiancee LJ", appreciated being involved in the
start-up process because it provided me a way to contribute and be part of the
start-up spirit. Why should my fiancee get to have all the fun? In my opinion,
the benefits of this project (team building, original furniture, bragging
rights, significant money savings) far outweighed what would have been gained
with the satisfaction of a trip to Ikea. Thanks Cloudant!

------
brudgers
It's hard to see this as the YC way of running a business. The CEO can make
desks from doors and his girlfriend can create a floor plan in sketchup, but
neither scales. Establishing potentially ongoing relationships with a
carpentry shop and with a team of design professionals does.

This is a kneepads v. packing table decision:

 _we were packing on our hands and knees on a hard concrete floor. I remember,
just to show you how stupid I can be -- my only defense is that it was late.
We were packing these things, everybody in the company and I had this
brainstorm as I said to the person next to me, "This packing is killing me! My
back hurts, this is killing my knees on this hard cement floor" and this
person said, "Yeah, I know what you mean." And I said, "You know what we
need?" my brilliant insight, "We need knee pads!'" I was very serious, and
this person looked at me like I was the stupidest person they'd ever seen. I'm
working for this person? This is great. "What we need is packing tables."_ \--
Jeff Bezos

<http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/page/bez0int-4>

------
gyros23
Well done! Wood is an amazing material. Don't not mind these comments about
investing your time better. You did it right. A solid and comfortable
environment is essential for a good product. Maybe good ideas were created at
starbucks, but certainly not good products.

~~~
namella
Then why did they design their office to look like a starbucks?

~~~
mlmilleratmit
Hah, nice! Ironically, my mom is an interior designer. We're still working on
what to hang on the wall, furniture and layout, but I have some ideas of how
to make it personal/local, hopefully that'll take it a bit out of the
Starbucks genre.

------
qq66
There's a team camaraderie benefit to building desks together, for sure, but
if you just wanted desks you could get them on Craigslist for cheap. We got 3
extremely high quality desks for $100 total. (List price was $400 each).

------
rdl
I've always done the t leg ikea galant desks (glass, preferably), with aeron
chairs ($300 used, $600 new, IMO worth it), and now, ergotron monitor arms.
Generic but totally functional.

~~~
swah
What properties does a good table have?

~~~
rdl
Cheap, relatively stable, strong, flat on top, somewhat rounded edge so you
don't hurt your wrists, maximum free span width underneath. Adjustable height.
Wheels would be cool, but I haven't tried that.

The glass IKEA Galant desks do make it really difficult to mount monitor arms
(you can't bolt through tempered glass, and pressure clamps are risky on
glass), so I ended up putting two oak boards on the top and bottom in the back
(1" thick, 8" wide, width of the table + 2"), and clamping stuff to those.

Glass is nice because it's really easy to clean. I believe in keeping the desk
basically empty when not in use, with all monitors/etc. supported by arms. I
do leave 2 keyboards, a mouse, and a magictrackpad on the desk itself, since I
don't have a good way to mount them to anything.

~~~
swah
My glass table always has fingerprints on it, which bugs me. Ground glass
probably doesn't have that little problem.

~~~
rdl
The greenish glass tables don't have that problem; the black ones do.

The other nice thing is that Logitech "darkfield" laser mice work fine on even
clear glass tables, somehow.

------
dannyr
If this was a team-building exercise, I think it's worth it.

------
quellhorst
Ikea desks are not too expensive and will have a higher resell value than your
door desks when your company goes under from spending too much time making
desks.

------
venturebros
Is this a YC company? If not why are they so concerned about doing things the
YC way?

Anyways I am just happy to see something Seattle related.

~~~
xfax
Yes, it is. It says so on the second sentence in TFA.

------
rdl
If it's not too rude to ask, what is your rent? I'm seeing $4.50-7 in Palo
Alto for a range of spaces (it gets cheaper for huge space out of downtown);
$1-2.50 for light industrial or office space in Mountain View, and $1.50-4 in
SF.

I'd far prefer to be in Seattle (and love Pioneer Square), but I think I'm
stuck down here.

------
Goladus
A bit off topic, but this blog design is an example of failing at #1 from this
recent post: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4146888>

There's a link to blog.cloudent.com but not cloudent.com, which is where I
actually wanted to go.

------
swah
I like those brick walls. Bricks on my country are generally clearer and color
doesn't vary that much. Do you know if that is some treatment on the bricks so
they look old, or perhaps they are really old?

~~~
mlmilleratmit
The bricks are quite old. They may be treated, but you can flake them off with
a screwdriver if you dig in.

------
swah
If I could choose so, I rather have my screens facing a wall, or even better
the front door. I just don't like the feeling that people might be monitoring
what I'm doing. Anyone else notices that?

------
overworkedasian
really? why not just buy a $99 ikea desk:
<http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/40111124/>

if you add up all the time it took to sand, varish, cut, drill etc it would
have costs so much more. time is money man.

------
dmishe
How is progrid chairs? Maybe compared to steelcase leap?

~~~
mlmilleratmit
See my comment above, but so far very happy with them.

