
Show HN: A website aiming to fix homelessness in SF - SeckinJohn
Hi everyone,
I am organizing a crowdfunding campaign to give blankets&#x2F;food&#x2F;books&#x2F;glasses and new year&#x27;s postcards to 1000 homeless people in San Francisco.<p>Since we as the residents already spend a lot of money on the homelessness issue in SF via government(200MM+&#x2F;year), I thought some of us would be willing to take a more active role in fixing this issue by donating to campaigns like this one(and to more sustainable ones). So, I am thinking of turning this campaign into a crowdfunding platform for activists and organizations that want to work on homelessness related issues in San Francisco.<p>I wanted to share the campaign here thinking you might like the idea &amp; might want to share your thoughts on it:
https:&#x2F;&#x2F;operationsflove.com<p>So far the supporters have been mostly my friends but I believe this could go viral with some improvement.<p>Would love hear what you all think,
Thanks,
Seckin
======
ChuckMcM
I recall a time at a community meeting I advocated finding a way of providing
a facility that could house and treat the addicted and mentally ill, I was
accused of wanting to "sweep the homeless under the rug and forget about
them." I knew it was a difficult problem I just didn't realize that the
problem wasn't the homeless, the problem has roots in our collective
understanding of what is a 'better' versus 'not better' quality of life.

I have always held that it is one of the main purposes of government to
maximize the quality of life for the governed. Whether they are rich, poor,
sane, or insane. What I always find challenging is when someone chooses to
define 'better' in a way that I cannot comprehend.

I strongly recommend that anyone who wants to help here start by looking at
what we had, in terms of laws and institutions, which gave the state the
ability to hold someone and treat their illness, and restrict their movements,
and why those institutions were abolished and laws changed.

As a community we changed our position from it is 'better' to house these
people and give them treatment, to it is 'better' that they live without
constraints and someone trying to provide help they don't want.

When a person says they would rather sleep on a bench than be given drugs that
make them feel "bad" and be forced to live with other people who are similarly
afflicted, which is better? Homelessness or being institutionalized? Why?

~~~
robbrown451
You make interesting points.

I do, however, think that it is the right of the governed to make rules
against sleeping on benches, that they paid for with their tax dollars. Same
goes for sidewalks, doorways, etc. I suppose you could say such rules are
"restricting of movements" (in the broadest sense), but they seem reasonable
restrictions to me.

That said, I also think it is society's responsibility to provide another
option.

~~~
ChuckMcM
That is a well understood argument for the common good. Which is that the vast
majority of the citizens are served by available benches, not by occupied
benches, (or other publicly supplied services) and so excluding people from
sleeping on them makes sense in the context of the entire constituency.

    
    
       > That said, I also think it is society's responsibility
       > to provide another option.
    

I don't think many would disagree, the challenge comes with deciding what
exactly is that option? I am an engineer so I find I tend to come up with
practical but socially inept solutions.

At the time there was a discussion about how "we" (where we is the city of
Sunnyvale) might use the Onizuka Air Force base facility (aka the 'Blue Cube')
which was being decommissioned and turned over to the public sector for re-
use. I was trying to figure out if there was a way we could convert part of
that facility into what would essentially be caves, self heated concrete
structures that were impervious to fire, contained internal pipes with a heat
transfer fluid to maintain a livable temperature (cooling or warming), a
dedicated latrine system that would periodically flush out all waste, and that
were nominally "open" but could be enclosed with available materials.
Something that people who were otherwise unwilling to live in a more
traditional shelter/section 8 housing, might be able to survive in. This
wasn't even a basic income kind of problem, these were people who are mentally
non-functional adults. Was there any sort of place we could create that would
make their lives better than it was today. They are an at risk group for whom
it is very difficult these days to provide services for.

It was wildly derided as putting these people on a 'reservation' or 'in pens'
or any number of things. Like I said earlier, socially inept. I don't know
have any good solutions.

------
mrharrison
The reason there are many homeless in SF, is because there are many shelters
in the Tenderloin that provide these things you are talking about. Think you
should first ask why are they homeless, not just give them random things. They
are homeless either because, they have drug problems, psychological issues, or
the least likely -- they have a problem getting employment.

~~~
nickthemagicman
It's kind of amazing how you can stereotype huge amounts of people in two
sentences.

And it's ALL THEIR FAULT.

Not the economy, not the insane cost of higher education to gain job skills,
not the outsourcing and automation of modern society.

It's the homeless who are failures.

That's why I propose Gladiator hobo fights to the death.

Only the strongest hobo's survive.

Make them earn their cheeseburgers like a good capitalist.

~~~
yid
Oh get off that pedestal. OP was talking about the Tenderloin. Have you ever
walked through the Tenderloin? A large fraction of the homeless people there
clearly have severe psychological or drug issues. They're not there because of
the economy.

~~~
nickthemagicman
I AGREE!

I'm sure every single person in the Tenderloin is there because they're just
losers!

That's why I'm proposing Bumfights.

It could be an awesome startup.

Pit them against each other Hunger Games style.

Fuck those loser homeless.

~~~
yid
You seem to be the only one in this thread calling them losers. I'm not sure
where you're getting that from my comment.

~~~
serf
what don't you get? He's making fun of the assumption you seem to make that
none of the residents of the area are there due to economic reasons, and then
you cite anecdotal evidence (a walk through) as evidence as such.

~~~
rprospero
I wrote an incredibly angry reply to you, but I've calmed down enough that I
can try to explain my point without attacking you.

mrharrison stated that the root cause of much of our poor handling of
homelessness comes from our poor handling of the disabled. To avoid going with
anecdotes, I'll simply point out that 13% of the homeless population are
veterans. Physical and mental disabilities are quite common and our society
has decided to just dump these people on the streets as opposed to helping
them.

However, then nickthemagicman comes along and makes the implication that
stating that a homeless person is disabled is equivalent to stating that the
person deserves to be homeless. That's the most offensive thing that I've ever
seen on the Internet, and I've been to 4chan. Just because a person has a
disability doesn't mean that they don't deserve basic human dignity.

Though I am descending into anecdote here, my wife was homeless when I met
her. She also has a physical disability which cost her her job and her home.
There was a wonderful government program to help her out of poverty by letting
her haul 40lb bags of sand around, but it's not much use to a woman who walks
with a cane and can't carry more than 20lb without needing a week of bed rest.
If we were willing to talk about the root cause, then she'd be getting the
treatment she needs to be healthy again and be happy to carry those 40lb bags.
Unfortunately, the system was designed by bigots like nickthemagicman. When
she applied for disability, she was told that they would only pay for her
medical treatment if she agreed to never work again under punishment of jail
time. After all, basic dignities like the joy of contributing to society
aren't allowed for the disabled. Just the able bodied homeless, I guess.

------
jpeg_hero
How does this "fix homelessness in SF?"

Same number of homeless but now they have blankets and books too?

~~~
vehementi
I'm not sure how it's sustainable either. Sustainable via getting people to
continue donating blankets and books?

------
habosa
In many discussions like this I see the argument that some/most/all homeless
people are drug addicts or mentally ill or otherwise not deserving of help.

I have always been of the opinion that I don't care why someone is homeless, I
would like to help them. There is nobody that deserves to live on the street
in a nation with as much wealth as America, even if they've made bad decisions
(drugs, alcohol, crime, etc.). I think it's our job as a society to put a roof
over everyone's head to the best of our abilities, it's inhuman to pick and
dodge among homeless people and go about our lives like it is normal.

If I could solve any problem in my lifetime, it would be homelessness in
America. I wish I had any idea where to start. I know it's not as noble of a
cause as curing cancer or helping the needy who live in true poverty around
the world, but it's something that's in my face every day and I think it's a
failure of our modern society.

~~~
rhizome
_There is nobody that deserves to live on the street in a nation with as much
wealth as America, even if they 've made bad decisions (drugs, alcohol, crime,
etc.)._

I'm not sure what you mean by, "even if," here. The Fundamental Attribution
Error holds that it's a mistake to attribute someone's circumstances more to
choices than to luck. There are tons of rich people who have chosen drugs,
alcohol and crime, with extremely few, if any, turning up homeless as a
result. There are also homeless who are not addicted nor incapacitatingly
mentally ill (I'm sure we can agree that homelessness could predictably lead
to depression at the very least).

Likewise, the way economic policy in many capitalist countries is oriented
toward maintaining certain levels of unemployment (full employment being seen
as bad, weakening the negotiating power of business owners, etc.) ensures that
homelessness and poverty are _actual government policy_. Your Tax Dollars At
Work.

Generally and socially, I contend that the problems of education and
homelessness, in the US at least, are directly attributable to prioritizing
commerce and the military over domestic care. Let's ask why a country with as
much wealth as America deserves to engage in war, shall we?

~~~
habosa
I agree with you on most points. The "even if" was a reference to what others
give as reasons for not helping the homeless.

------
nperez
My only advice is to provide socks too. Socks get gross and/or wet or hard if
you can't easily wash them.. and they're not too expensive.

~~~
ja27
Funny. My son's Cub Scout pack worked with a local homeless group and the top
requested things they packed in gift bags for them were cheap flashlights and
tube socks. They use the socks for everything.

------
11001
Go out and talk to some social workers, figure out what tech could actually
help with. This is just silly.

~~~
SeckinJohn
I would love to talk with more social workers/activists/organizations working
on this and similar issues. Please feel free to send an email to me at
seckincansahin@gmail.com

I have been iterating on this campaign for at least a month now according to
feedback I have received from 50+ people in all walks of life, but I agree
that there is still a huge room for improvement. And I would love to hear more
about the campaigns that you think we could work on after this one.

~~~
dshanahan
I had a long coffee with HandUp's founder Rose Broome, who's done a boatload
of legwork in this space (and just had Jason Calicanis ask to lead an
investment round). Was intro'd to her product by a homeless guy in my hood and
immediately had to know more. It's the first piece of tech that really wowed
me with regards to making some headway on some of these issues - I'd highly
encourage anyone who thinks about the space a lot to connect with her team.
They're pretty responsive @handup on twitter.

------
gkoberger
Very awesome.

One thing I love about Watsi is that I can actually see (and pick) who I'm
donating to. There's something cool about being able to read their stories and
see their pictures -- it almost makes me feel bad going to the site and _not_
donating.

Good luck!

~~~
gkoberger
Someone else mentioned this site, which is exactly what I was thinking:

[https://handup.us/](https://handup.us/)

------
pcloadletter
It's a nice gesture, but it won't 'fix' homelessness. There are some homeless
who will stay that way; you can see them roaming around in packs. And then
there are the mentally ill; they need medications and structure.

There's too much money to be made by the established people, so chances of
fixing homelessness are negligible. It's a corrupt system.

~~~
losf
I agree than the term "fixing homelessness" is probably not appropriate. As
you said some homeless might want to stay homeless, and that is fine. But for
the homeless who want to get out of homelessness, there should be a clear path
to get back. That could start with basics (shelter, bathroom, medical and
social help).

------
nezumi
I don't live in SF but I work for a Bay Area company and have often wondered,
while waiting to get onto one of those shiny buses, why a city with such a
high concentration of rich, smart people is failing its least fortunate
residents so miserably and obviously. Why are the technological elite so
helpless in the face of this problem on their own doorstep?

Reading the comments here it seems that there is a massive gap in
understanding, empathy and plain old data - are there no studies answering the
questions being speculated on here?

If you could find a way to address that gap of understanding - provide the
technologists with data, and fully describe the constraints - perhaps there
can be a useful discussion in the technology community.

~~~
robbrown451
I think the mistake you are making is when you talk about it as failing "its
least fortunate residents," without regard for the fact that those residents
may only be there because of how well it does treat them.

------
losf
Spending $200M/year on ~15,000 homeless, that's ~$1,000/month for each
homeless. I don't think we need more money. We need to spend it better.

Why not build public bathrooms ? That could be used by homeless and others
(like people renting a bedroom w/o shower, poor, students, etc.). Actually
that could be a way to reach homeless people, to provide them medical and
social help.

To integrate homeless to society you need to provide them the basics that they
don't have (bathroom, shelter, laundry, food, medical and social help, and
even bank account, internet, phone). Not all will grab the opportunity, but at
least they will have a chance to.

------
jdkuepper
I applaud efforts like these for at least doing something to address the
problem, even if it doesn't turn out to be the most effective use of capital
in the end as some suggest here.

That said, I think some of the best projects fighting homelessness are
supportive housing projects that help people get an apartment and provide
additional services for medical/psychiatric treatments, food stamps, etc. [1]

1\.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supportive_housing](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supportive_housing)

~~~
llamataboot
Housing First has been shown to be fiscally prudent, generate good outcomes,
as well as just being plain compassionate (of course we shouldn't base whether
or not you have access to a home on whether or not you have a substance abuse
issue). Salt Lake City has had some huge successes implementing it.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_first](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_first)

[http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=18984066](http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=18984066)

------
robbrown451
It seems a bit like trying to fix the pigeon problem in the city by putting
out pigeon food.

The harsh reality is that the more accommodating to the homeless the city is,
the more homeless there will be.

I think there are solutions, and they can be compassionate, but simply making
life easier for the homeless has long term drawbacks that are greater than the
short term upsides.

~~~
SeckinJohn
I agree that the goal shouldn't be making the life too easy for the homeless -
instead I believe that we should focus on helping them re-integrate back to
the society, at least for the ones that would like to.

Homelessness is the main concern for resident of San Francisco according to
recent polls, and it would be a shame if this stayed like this for another 10
years.

With this campaign, we can start creating campaigns that are funded and lead
by the citizens who are most passionate about solving this. Then, the idea
that something like this could work would ideally propagate to other people
that are more skeptic.

We need to also note that we are already paying around $20 per month each on
fixing homelessness in San Francisco through the government. The main
difference is that with a crowdfunding platform, we would be the ones that are
choosing which campaigns make sense and which activists we would like to
support.

~~~
nickthemagicman
Making it 'easy' for the homeless?

Lol you think basic fundamental survival goods like food and blankets are
making it easy?

Are you SERIOUS?

Because I completely agree! You guys are absolutely right on. If you encourage
homelessness EVERYONE will become one.

~~~
robbrown451
"Easy" is a relative term. The issue is whether you want to make it easier
than it previously was.

~~~
omgtehblackbloc
You are implying that homelessness is a calculated choice, and that if it
becomes unpleasant enough, an individual will decide to stop being homeless.

This is absurd because it fails to recognize that homelessness is not a
choice, it is the default when no choice is available. It is literally the
bottom of the list, lower even than jail (many homeless people try to get in
jail on purpose, especially during the winter).

Making life more difficult (and dangerous) for homeless people won't stop them
from being homeless. It might, however, get them to go be homeless in someone
else's town - which is the real motivation for inhumane policies. Make human
suffering someone else's problem, not in my back yard.

------
rodrodrod
Semi-related: I recently watched this video on $20 homeless backpack care kits
([http://youtu.be/Y6fkyf9UGAE](http://youtu.be/Y6fkyf9UGAE)), thought it was a
neat idea. Figured it might be useful for those looking for simple ways to
help out a bit.

------
joshribakoff
I've seen homeless people abuse entitlements (turn down jobs because they'd
loose their handouts, etc.)

On the other hand, some of them would get laughed at in an interview without
being "cleaned up" to look presentable, which a hand out could help with.

------
srameshc
I think its a great idea.

------
nickthemagicman
OP after reading all the comments in this thread, I've determined that your
idea for mercy and compassion is a flawed concept and is not good capitalism.

What you should do instead is turn your web site into a bumfights startup!!!

Make them fight to the death hunger games style for tons of swag.

The profit potential is huge, the homeless population will be decreased, AND
the leftover hobos will have tons of good swag!

~~~
optimusclimb
I don't have downvote power on here, but I think you should re-consider your
comment - as it's snarky, doesn't add anything, and doesn't really follow the
ethos of HN.

~~~
nickthemagicman
I'm really commited to start up culture! I think this a great idea.

