
Cuomo signs bill prohibiting Airbnb listings in NYC - Spooky23
http://blog.timesunion.com/capitol/archives/268627/cuomo-signs-bill-prohibiting-airbnb-listings-in-nyc/
======
geebee
Airbnb's response: "A majority of New Yorkers have embraced home sharing, and
we will continue to fight for a smart policy solution that works for the the
people, not the powerful."

I'd be more interested in knowing how New Yorkers feel about regulating short
term apartment rentals than how they feel about sharing.

I don't think I'm guilty of being a broken record if airbnb keeps misusing the
word "sharing." Although I understand there can be some ambiguity in the word
"sharing", the arrangement "you may rent my apartment out for a week if and
only if you pay me $1,000" isn't anywhere close to this zone of ambiguity.

It is commerce. It is unambiguously commerce, it is a pure quid pro quo money
for services transaction.

New York has passed legislation regulating commerce - in this case, the
conditions under which someone may rent out property for under 30 days. Those
laws aren't obsolete just because someone wrote a rails app where you can type
in an address and click a "create hotel here" button. Also, commerce doesn't
become sharing just because the quid pro quo financial transactions take place
over the web.

~~~
jjordan
This highlights a flaw in the law more than anything else. Who owns your home?
If government can tell you who can stay with you, regardless of any private
transactions or agreements you make with that person, then government has more
authority over your living space than you do.

~~~
mikestew
_Who owns your home? If government can tell you who can stay with you_

The government can do all manner of proscriptions for your residence. For
instance, no, you cannot run a brothel from your house. You cannot turn it
into a bouncy house park. And you cannot have short-term rentals in an area
that the community has decided to use for permanent housing.

It's called "zoning", and collectively we've agreed to the allowed uses of our
property. You live in a community of others, and your property lines do not
define "The Independent Republic of JJordan", so yeah, the government does
have some authority over your use of your property. You might not like it, but
you'll be going against the flow. Because, personally, I'd rather not have the
house next to me used for short-term rentals "shared" with those that don't
give two shits about the community they'll be leaving on Sunday afternoon.

You also don't get to just decide not to follow the rules after the fact. One
moved to a community, and directly or indirectly agreed to abide by the
community standards. If one decides that's just not really working for them
anymore, well, move to a community that has standards more to your liking.
There do exist places that will have no problem with you throwing all the loud
parties you like, and renting to college students on spring break. Those
places are not in SV, however, so good luck in your search for remote work.

~~~
braveo
> short-term rentals in an area that the community has decided to use for
> permanent housing

It shouldn't be legal to tell someone who owns a home that they cannot rent it
out. We're not talking about someone running a business out of their home,
where the zoning laws actually apply.

> I'd rather not have the house next to me used for short-term rentals
> "shared" with those that don't give two shits about the community they'll be
> leaving on Sunday afternoon.

How about the ones who let that druggie sister down on her luck move in, she's
ok because it's for over 30 days?

This is just whiny bullcrap from someone who wants to be able to control their
neighbors.

> You also don't get to just decide not to follow the rules after the fact.
> One moved to a community, and directly or indirectly agreed to abide by the
> community standards.

We're not discussing a housing authority here. If you and your neighbors get
together and decide the community cannot abide someone allowing another person
to use their house for less than ... what 6 months? a year ... you write that
into the bylaws, set out the financial penalty, and then you enforce it.

And that's your right.

But when these kinds of things become illegal across an entire state, there's
a problem. This law should have never been on the books in its current form to
begin with.

~~~
maxsilver
> It shouldn't be legal to tell someone who owns a home that they cannot rent
> it out. We're not talking about someone running a business out of their
> home, where the zoning laws actually apply.

Short term rentals _are_ a business, by definition.

~~~
unethical_ban
Parent made it sound like the government has a moral right to zoning laws. I
would argue that zoning laws are more often abused than used properly.

~~~
threeseed
The government does have a moral right to zoning laws.

We, as citizens, have ascribed them that right. And it is what protects me
from having my neighbours run a brothel or smelting plant in their house.

~~~
hilop
That's not a "right", that's a power struggle. What protects the brothel owner
from being kicked out of town?

------
mamurphy
The legislation allows you to rent a spare room in your house. What it
disallows is having an apartment you rent out in full on AirBnB, either doing
that exclusively as an income source or yourself staying elsewhere whenever
you are renting it out.

Put in that context, the legislation seems pretty well-aimed at its goal of
creating more affordable housing in the city.

If you are renting an entire apartment out on AirBnB full time, you are
deciding to run an unregulated hotel rather than rent a traditional long-term
lease. The city doesn't like that.

~~~
hueving
>Put in that context, the legislation seems pretty well-aimed at its goal of
creating more affordable housing in the city.

At the cost of higher temporary housing costs for people that want to visit.
Addressing supply by ripping supply from a different market is a bandaid.

This benefits hotels much more than low income people.

~~~
acveilleux
> At the cost of higher temporary housing costs for people that want to visit.
> Addressing supply by ripping supply from a different market is a bandaid.

That's not such a bad thing. The market has demonstrated that hotels and
similar will be built until supply mostly meets the demand.

No one will build affordable housing when they can build expensive housing
instead.

~~~
MarkMc
> No one will build affordable housing when they can build expensive housing
> instead.

This problem is due to restrictions on supply. Consider the statement, "No one
will build affordable cars when they can build expensive cars instead"

~~~
minikites
Cars can be moved and occupy shared spaces. Dwellings are anchored to the
earth and exclude other dwellings from the same location.

~~~
MarkMc
Yup, that's one restriction on supply. Other restrictions include:

1\. Limits on the height of new buildings

2\. Limits on the ability to demolish or extend existing buildings

3\. Limits on the minimum size of new apartments

4\. Limits on the number of people who can live in an apartment

------
wcarron
While I typically would support a tech company, and this is not to say that
I'm not pro-technology and want smarter legislation to keep track with
technology advances, the opposition does have some good points.

Having only recently become able to afford my own apartment, it appears to me
that this legislation is, at its core, designed for the purpose of renter
protection. Housing prices are literally insane in metropolitan areas across
America. (LA here). Illegal sublets are already endemic, and were I to own
property, or even have a year long lease, the ROI from AirBnBs/subletting
would definitely be enticing. I won't assert I'm a moral paragon, but there
are many landlords less scrupulous than I am.

The problem is that, with AirBnB and sublets come ever increasing rent,
eventually pricing huge numbers of people out, which drives down productivity
and growth. Uninhibited illegal sublets/hotels create a weird bubble at the
very bottom of the housing market, which serves to exert upward pressure on
prices across the board, since if one room is now worth $800-$1000/month, a
studio apt jumps from $1100 to $1300, and so on and so forth.

~~~
twblalock
> The problem is that, with AirBnB and sublets come ever increasing rent,
> eventually pricing huge numbers of people out, which drives down
> productivity and growth.

AirBnB aside, the cities with the highest housing prices, and the highest
recent increases in housing prices, also have the highest economic growth by
far.

In theory, people like service workers will be driven out, the local economy
will suffer, yadda yadda yadda. In practice, that has never happened. In San
Francisco area, for example, rents have more than doubled in the past five
years, the economy has boomed, thousands of new jobs were created, and there
are still enough service workers, restaurant workers, municipal employees,
etc. to do the jobs that need to be done. If you look at the most expensive
cities worldwide, e.g. London, Paris, Moscow, Tokyo, etc., you will find
similar situations.

If you want to argue for affordable housing on the basis that it is a social
good, that's fine. But there is no evidence that high housing prices have
driven down productivity and growth.

~~~
steveax
Except those service workers probably now have significantly longer commutes.
Their quality of life suffers. I don't know how broadly your definition of
service workers goes, but this affects teachers, police officers,
firefighters, etc.

~~~
ahoy
I don't think the parent poster would disagree with you. What they're saying
is that the decreased quality of life for service industry workers hasn't lead
to a negative effect on the economy.

I'm with you that it's a bad thing.

~~~
davidw
Growing at 10% instead of 20% is still "a negative effect".

"That which is not seen" and all that...

~~~
twblalock
What evidence is there that growth would increase _in the areas with high
housing prices_ if the housing prices were lower?

~~~
davidw
Less deadweight loss in the form of rent, and more towards people doing
productive things is one completely obvious one.

~~~
twblalock
I asked for evidence, not what seems obvious.

I already addressed this in my original post. It seems obvious that the
displacement of workers would hurt the economy. However, it does not seem to
actually happen -- the cities with the highest housing prices have the highest
growth of any cities in the world.

~~~
tormeh
I think the causation goes the other way: Cities with high growth get high
housing prices because people want to move to cities with high growth.

------
RickS
It's a shame it's come to this, but I'm sympathetic to NYC here. AirBnB had
the time, resources, and advance notice to modify their policies and offerings
in ways that allowed real homeowners to use the system but keep greedy land
owners from running unregulated hotel chains.

AirBnB chose to keep the money hose pouring instead. They implicitly
encouraged owners to operate in a way that violated the spirit of moderate,
sensible couch sharing.

This is well deserved.

~~~
apaprocki
Agreed -- I even tried to contact them as the legal representative for our
building to give them a chance to "fix" the situation and they refused to take
down rental ads in our building after we stated it was both against building
by-laws and NYC law.

~~~
tptacek
Wow. That's crazy. What did they tell you?

~~~
apaprocki
"Although we are unable to evaluate private contract terms and cannot
arbitrate these disputes, we will share your letter with the user responsible
for the listing."

Gee, thanks. Notice -- no mention of violation of NYC law in the response.

------
apaprocki
Everyone usually frames this debate as compensating the little man instead of
lining the rich pockets of the hotel industry. I have personally not seen
this. I am a NYC condo owner and I do not know a single other condo owner that
I have met that welcomes illegal short-term renters in their buildings. We
enacted a $1000/day fine in our building against the owner on record if we
catch someone doing this. We invested in real estate in this city and all
signed contracts agreeing that only long-term subleases would be allowed (>=
12 months), and so we are upholding those contracts. Just because someone
wants to visit the city and not stay in a hotel does not mean that all the
other unit owners in a particular building want you there. It is _not_ just a
transaction between you and whoever hands you the keys. The last 2 Airbnb
cases in our building were legal long-term subletters themselves listing the
apartment on Airbnb without the owner's knowledge. There is so much straight-
up illegal activity going on it's not even funny.

~~~
joshcohen
I'm curious why you desire 12 month leases over, say, 4 month leases. What's
the major difference from an owner's perspective?

~~~
apaprocki
It's extra work for the management company / Board, but one of the primary
drivers is that all the people in the building don't want a constant stream of
people moving in/out. Expanding it to minimum 12-month leases means less
disruption to people living in the building.

------
gaius
_Krueger noted that the legislation does not prohibit those who use sites like
Airbnb from renting out a spare room while they are in their homes._

So if the sharing economy is REALLY about sharing, there's no problem!

~~~
ethanbond
What about going away for work? I don't have a spare bedroom (uh, there aren't
many of those in NYC), but I do travel quite a bit.

I get the gist of the law and wholeheartedly support it. I just wish there
were a way for it to be a bit more targeted (say, a days/year stipulation).

~~~
gaius
It is - this legislation from 2010 is about lets of <30 days.

~~~
ethanbond
You don't take trips for less than a month at a time?

~~~
gaius
You would need to be away for at least 30 days and your prospective tenant
would need to sign a lease for at least 30 days. Then, under this legislation,
it's kosher, and would be governed by your own tenancy agreement/coop
board/whatever.

~~~
ethanbond
Yeah, I'm not asking for an explanation of the law. I understand how it works,
and that's the problem. It bans the usecase of allowing people to rent out
while they travel, which wasn't the stated intention of the law.

------
specialp
If Airbnb had rules regarding non-share rentals that restricted repeated
listings of them they wouldn't have this problem. Yes this law is slightly
heavy-handed in that it blocks someone that goes on a trip from time to time
from booking their places out, but that is not the majority of listings on
Airbnb. The majority of full apartment rentals are people that are running
illegal hotels basically. This is hurting real hotels that have much more
regulation, and decreasing availability of housing in a city that is getting
more residents every year than the entire population of most other places in
the USA.

Also when you are living in Manhattan, you do not want to have someone
different in the place down the hall or above you every day. These people
staying short term have no onus to respect neighbors. Airbnb knows that
professional illegal sub-letters are the bulk of their business and is not
stopping it. Renting a ski cabin out weekly is a lot different than renting
out an apartment in the most densely populated city in the USA.

------
losteverything
Our tiny town had creative citizens stop the only ab&b house on a residential
street.

Tell an&b tenants they are not wanted and to state that in their reviews

Take all their street parking spaces

Call the police nightly to say strangers are in neighbors house and she is
away

Eventually the city council ruled against the homeowner due to zoning (not a
business)

The situation was very ugly.

Perhaps there should be an an&b companion list where potential an&b renters
can see if the property is "friendly neutral or hostile" I would have used
that

~~~
Tempest1981
What city was this? Just curious. Sounds like a lot of work for everyone
involved, and could defocus the police.

------
torpfactory
The way I see it is: you can either have a city where ALL the residents of the
city can afford to live (esp. service workers, teachers, elderly folks on a
fixed income, etc), or you can have one where those with the expendable
capital buy up most of the available housing to use a short term rentals to
increase their income further. I'd rather live in a city where many different
kinds of people can find a place to live than one where only those with the
most money can stay.

To be clear: I'd support density limits for AirBnBs without an outright ban
and am totally fine with people renting out extra rooms on a short or long
term basis. Unrestrained short term rentals seem to clearly drive up the price
of property and end up benefiting mostly those who already have the means to
own a place to live.

------
joering2
> _This is an issue that was given careful, deliberate consideration, but
> ultimately these activities are already expressly prohibited by law_

So basically the city/state failed to respond to AirBnB illegal activities in
short period of time hence letting them thrive and built a multi-billion
dollar business.

Would that be a key to successful startup? Same thing happened with Uber. So
is there any other branch of industry one can try to disturb that would
violate local/state laws but such violation would take decent amount of time
to stop you in reasonable time before you are "worth" billions? (okay, other
than selling drugs which most of us and Ulbritch know will put you in jail for
a long time).

> _In typical fashion, Albany back-room dealing rewarded a special interest —
> the price-gouging hotel industry_

Wow, that's pretty strong allegations. Does he have any proof of such illegal
activity? If so, did AirBnB did anything to report it? In all seriousness, I
frankly doubt there is such a big monopoly so that its impossible to open your
own hotel and compete price-wise with others.

> _and ignored the voices of tens of thousands of New Yorkers_ Okay well I can
> find millions or criminals locked in jails saying it should be fine to kill
> people - is that a good enough reasoning?

They also claim Cuomo action infringe on 4th amendment. Can someone stretch it
hard enough for me to actually see it Peter's way??

------
throwaway420
What is the proper amount of short term rentals in a city?

Should a particular building be used for housing or rentals?

I know I don't know the exact answer, but the reality is that politicians
don't either. These questions are better solved by pricing, the mechanism that
actually directs resources to their most valued ends rather than political
edict (which as we all know is influenced heavily by whoever is able to grease
the most politicians).

Politicians can't react accurately and quickly to rapidly changing supply and
demand. The market has an actual signal that does this rapidly and provides
incentive to do so.

Anything that disrupts this is just another example of corrupt government
benefiting their contributors to the detriment of real prosperity.

~~~
jjbiotech
Agree 100%. I think that the city of New York has no business putting
limitations on how a property (that you own) can be used and leased. If you
have a community/association that's making those rules, fine... that's fair.
It's fair because you agree to their terms prior to purchasing the property.
If you rent a property and the lease explicitly disallows subletting, fine.
That's fair too. Rules and laws should be granular, specific to their
locality, rather than vast sweeping blankets.

I'm also in favor of zoning for residential and business, that makes sense.
But there's a big difference between someone operating a high foot-traffic
business out of their home, and seeing an occasional stranger walk into a
residence every other day or so.

If there are no specific rules that a localized community has agreed on, then
Airbnb should be fair game. Why should the municipal government make the
rules?

------
davidf18
[http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/22/technology/new-york-
passes...](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/22/technology/new-york-passes-law-
airbnb.html)

> '“In typical fashion, Albany back-room dealing rewarded a special interest —
> the price-gouging hotel industry — and ignored the voices of tens of
> thousands of New Yorkers,” said Josh Meltzer, head of the company’s New York
> public policy.'

> 'New York City is the company’s largest market in the United States. The
> city’s hosts generated about $1 billion in revenue last year, and the
> company took a cut of that amount in fees.'

From this article, AirBnB wasted millions of dollars lobbying to go against
the will of the people. Amazing.

The quote is wrong. New Yorkers value their safety. They don't want transients
in their buildings. There are children, there are elderly, there are women.
Perhaps AirBnB should have hired someone who lives in a NYC apartment. They
would have explained the importance of safety to the AirBnB executives.

It seems impossible that executives of AirBnB do not understand that safety in
apartment buildings is important. Perhaps their vision is blurred by the fees
they make on the $1 billion in annual revenues.

------
swingbridge
There are laws in New York City that say (with good reason) that you can't
just turn your home into a hotel. New York is simply enforcing the law.

If Airbnb really has the public support they claim then it should be easy to
change the law. The reality is a lot (likely vast majority) of New Yorkers
really don't want the status quo to change. The politicians know this and
hence why they took this path.

~~~
willholloway
Maybe this is good law in New York City because its so dense and everyone is
stepping on one another, but its not good law for the entire, gigantic state
of New York.

My cousin does cleaning and management of vacation rentals in the Catskills,
in parts of New York that used to be vibrant but are now extremely
economically depressed and taxed exorbitantly.

Forbid vacation rentals that violate noise ordinances, don't cast
generalization blankets and act out of prejudice.

~~~
tedunangst
What are you talking about? The law only affects the city, not the whole
state.

------
JDiculous
As someone who's spent the last 3 months living in AirBnB units and sublets in
NYC and doesn't have any desire to commit to a year-long rental lease, this is
disappointing.

AirBnB makes the market more efficient by increasing the supply of housing
that otherwise wouldn't be available and provides more alternatives to signing
a lease and wading through scams on Craigslist.

If NYC is serious about providing affordable housing, then this would at best
be a temporary band-aid patch while they actually tackle the real problem -
building more affordable housing. Of course the government isn't actually
interested in solving the problem, so blaming AirBnB is more convenient.

~~~
manacit
You can still rent an airbnb for a period of over 30 days (so, 31 days)
legally with these regulations. Do you find yourself wanting to move around
more often than that?

I think this is a pretty good compromise all things considered - I've gotten
very tired of people spending 72 hours in the apartment across the hallway
from me and generally being nuisances the entire time.

~~~
fernandotakai
as a tourist that really likes nyc, i can't stay for 30+ days and 15 days at a
hotel is too expensive (as in, i can't cook my own meals at a hotel) this
affects me a lot. i guess i won't be going back to nyc so soon.

------
drusepth
Very surprised to see all the (or any) Airbnb negativity here. I've been
living in an Airbnb for about 2 months now (as a tenant, not a host) and plan
to continue doing so indefinitely. The experience is infinitely better than
renting from your typical rental company (and at a comparable price, with
Airbnb's monthly discounts), and I don't think I could ever go back.

Unfortunately, this just sounds like NYC is making it more difficult for
visitors to come check out the city, which is regrettable at best.

Hopefully this bill does not also apply to long-term Airbnb rentals also.

~~~
flycaliguy
Indefinitely? Are you sacrificing the rights and protections put in place for
tenants? I'm not sure where you are located, but where I rent I have legal
protection for stuff. Temperature control, eviction warning and so on. Seeking
out a proper rental agreement with a landlord (not company, just a property
owner) seems like a far better idea.

~~~
drusepth
Honestly, I've never had to directly deal with the rights and protections put
in place for tenants when I rented from landlords/companies (for the past ~6
years), and had experiences ranging from negative to "meh".

I've only had positive experiences with Airbnb (so far at least). I rent the
entire home so things like temperature control aren't an issue, and in the two
instances where 1) a host was unavailable to check me in on arrival, and 2) a
host needed to end a contract early, Airbnb went out of their way to rectify
the situation (calling the tenant every 10 minutes until they responded for
#1, and offering equal-cost-per-night lodging at a hotel of my choice for both
#1 and #2). I would never expect a landlord to go through that, honestly.

FWIW, I'm located in the NL but I've also stayed at Airbnbs in the US and
Canada, and have the next 7 months of Airbnb rentals (3 months per place)
already booked.

I would definitely (honestly, not being facetious here) be interested in what
rental rights I'm missing out on by renting through Airbnb, and how realistic
it is that I'd actually need them outside of something crazy happening (I have
insurance for most of those cases).

------
colmvp
> “For too long companies like Airbnb have encouraged illegal activity that
> takes housing off the market and makes our affordability crisis worse,” she
> said. “They have sat idly by while unwitting ‘hosts’ are evicted for
> breaking their leases, unscrupulous landlords drive out tenants to profit
> off the short-term market, and tourists are put in danger by staying in
> unregulated, unaccountable, and often dangerous illegal hotels.”

I think the danger is exaggerated but otherwise, I tend to agree that Airbnb
is perfectly happy to profit off of tenants who break agreements set by their
city or community organization and play innocent about the legality. And now,
in my city at least, units that are owned and operated purely as short-term
rentals which in addition to making it less affordable for people who actively
want to purchase a place, also disrupt residents. One condo building for
example is pretty much known as a Airbnb hotel as residents often see visitors
clogging the lobby with luggage and/or endure loud parties. There's something
to be said when residents are delighted when Airbnb'ers have a crap experience
so that they stop coming to the building.

------
davidf18
I live in NYC and I can tell you that New Yorkers do not want AirBnB. We do
not want transients in our apartment buildings. We want our safety. Many of us
have doormen that keep people out.

There are children, there are elderly. The executives and the VC firms that
fund them show absolutely no respect for New Yorkers who value our safety.

> "Cuomo’s signature underscores a concern from companies that operate within
> the “sharing economy” that New York remains unreceptive to newer
> technologies that threaten some within certain industries, such as the
> hospitality and taxi industries."

This quote from the article is false. We highly value Uber/Lyft/Gett. New
Yorkers love high technology: we have the only 24/367 Apple Store in the
nation. We have a 24 hour Best Buy. Same Day Delivery from a number of
different vendors. ClassPass, MealPal, MoviePass, CUPS, the list is a long one
and some of these firms were first started in NYC.

What seems clear to New Yorkers is that AirBnB executives do not value safety.

~~~
mancerayder
There's no way to not come off as snarky here, but you keep saying 'New
Yorkers want this' and 'clear to New Yorkers' that. Do you have polls to back
this up? Otherwise this rhetoric reads like a quote from a politician or talk
radio. My question is, how do you know the majority of people agree with you?

~~~
tedunangst
Airbnb doesn't seem to mind saying that New Yorkers want airbnb because
"thousands" of them say so. Doesn't seem hard to imagine there are a thousand
New Yorkers who don't, justifying the opposite claim.

~~~
davidf18
We all value our safety. Many, many buildings have doormen to keep people out
to help protect safety. There is a lot of crime in big cities. I don't know
anyone that wants transients in their building.

The people AirBnB is referring to are simply those who want to rent their
places out for additional money.

I think AirBnB could care less about the safety of children, elderly, women,
and others. I have seen no acknowledgement that people living in apartment
buildings value their safety.

~~~
morgante
Please don't put words in other people's mouths.

I don't think my safety is in any way threatened by allowing my neighbors to
rent out their apartment while they're on vacation.

~~~
davidf18
From my statement:

> I think AirBnB could care less about the safety of children, elderly, women,
> and others.

Well, I'm very happy to hear that you, living in NYC, do not feel threatened
by transients. I wasn't referring to myself but children, elderly, and women.

If if physically able men don't feel threatened, there are others that should
be protected from harm from transients.

EDIT: I see by your other comments that you don't even live in NYC! You are
complaining about hotel rates > $60. Those of us that live here _in NYC_ value
the safety of protecting children, elderly neighbors, women, and our property
from transients.

For short term stays, go to Union City NJ which is just across from the
Lincoln Tunnel (42nd St). A simple priceline search shows $60 per day.

Please show sensitivity to others that value their safety and those of their
neighbors.

~~~
morgante
I do live in NYC.

This talk of "transients" is preposterous and, frankly, dubious. What do you
think "transients" are? Roving bands of criminals?

Your comment is the most pathetic example of "think of the children" I have
ever seen. Do you have _any_ examples of material harm being done to children
by Airbnb guests?

~~~
davidf18
Well, I was responding to your comment about not being able to find a $60
hotel room:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12768260](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12768260)

As someone in NYC then, you know that Union City, NJ is very close to Times
Square by transit and has low-cost hotel rooms, so I don't understand your
complaint. Transit-wise these hotels are much closer to Times Square than many
places parts of NYC.

I don't know anyone that wants transients in their buildings and the threat to
children, women, and children is a real one. Let people go to Union City, NJ
and get their hotel rooms.

~~~
morgante
Stop using the ridiculous term "transients." Airbnb customers are not homeless
criminals.

Once again, I'd like to see you provide any evidence of actual harm caused to
children by Airbnb guests.

~~~
davidf18
Correct use of the word:

[http://www.dictionary.com/browse/transient](http://www.dictionary.com/browse/transient)
noun (1st def): a person or thing that is transient, especially a temporary
guest, boarder, laborer, or the like.

They are transients and one of the reason for doormen is to create a protected
environment. We don't have that with transients. Is there a reason why they
can't go to Union City, NJ and use a proper hotel/motel?

Honestly, the only people I know of in NYC that are for this are those that
want to rent out their apartment, room, etc. on AirBnB which can risk the
safety of their neighbors, esp. the vulnerable ones.

> evidence of actual harm caused to children....

I said children, elderly, women. These are all vulnerable populations. There
is also the chance of theft once someone is beyond the doorman or is inside
the building.

I am honestly baffled why anyone would want transients in their apartment
buildings unless they were making money from the transients.

Incidentally, this crazy idea that AirBnB is trying to sell that is the unions
and the hotel industry that only want these regulations seem to leave out
inexpensive hotels that in places like Union City, NJ are very convenient to
Times Square and are very inexpensive. These hotels are in a convenient
location and they are inexpensive and available.

------
nomad_dude
I am glad that this bill was signed because I'm tired of having people in my
building who I don't know and do not trust. Everyone in my coop is vetted by
the Board of Directors before living here - why should AirBnb users be any
different?

~~~
FireBeyond
And yet the people your coop vetted are the very ones bring in AirBnB'ers...

~~~
nomad_dude
Not necessarily. Many buildings including my own have rent-
stabilized/controlled units that are still managed by the original owner of
the building. The Board of Directors has little influence over these units.

Additionally, some of the people who have been caught AirBnBing are original
members of the coop, so no vetting was required 30+ years ago.

Interestingly, instances of Airbnbing went down significantly after all
residents were sent reminders that they could lose their proprietary leases if
they were caught running hotels out of their respective apartments.

------
epc
AirBnb can't be surprised, NYC is one of the most contentious markets for
renters and landlords. There's far more tenants than potential AirBnb
landlords. While the hotel industry may well have made campaign contributions
to sway the legislature & governor, the fact is that rental regulations are
the third rail of NY/NYC politics and anything that screws tenants, as the
rise of AirBnb has, is bound to get slapped down.

~~~
epc
LOL. Down voting.

Look, if you come into a highly regulated and highly personal market as AirBnb
did in NYC, you simply can't be surprised at the reaction by politicians, if
you are then you are incredibly naive.

------
shawnee_
Airbnb profits from high volume and turnover, just as landlords and Realtors
get their cut every time there's a turnover in occupancy. Interestingly, this
is the root problem at both ends -- from people living in poverty (Portland's
sidewalk tent campers who get shuffled around), those suburbanites affected by
the housing "crisis", and those who can afford to own in any upscale hip-n-
trendy neighborhoods where Airbnb rentals are desperately sought. Those
rooting for turnover are usually those who profit the most from it.

Sure, people travel and need to rent rooms once in a while. People like to
rent while they're young and mobile, but the two use cases need very serious
and separate delineation from each other. Airbnb is pushing them more into
"overlap" territory. Airbnb's expansion into "subletting" was the kicker.

So, long story made short: it's an interesting economics problem I've been
working on solving in my spare time, as a very long and iterated side project
with Ecosteader (ecosteader.com). Some of the details emerging need a better
format for communication; however, the most clear thing to come from my
research is that people need to _own_, and they need to be able to transact
with each other directly. Middlemen (Airbnb is the middleman here) taking
significant commissions is part of the problem.

But the middlemen problem has sort of an obvious solution: to tax rental
_income_ so aggressively that it's just not an appealing source of investment
to people who invest in rentals. Use the tax generated from over-inflated
rents to build properties for sale, and/or figure out a way to use that money
to grant-deed land on which people can build. This last option seems the more
fun opportunity to me, and is what I originally had in mind building an eco-
site.

The homesteading movement needs to come back, adapted a bit for the 21st
century.

------
herlitzj
If anyone is interested, the Attorney General did study this and the report is
freely available
[http://www.ag.ny.gov/pdfs/Airbnb%20report.pdf](http://www.ag.ny.gov/pdfs/Airbnb%20report.pdf)

------
whiddershins
Prohibiting _some_ Air Bnb listings. Which were already illegal.

Mine would still be just fine.

------
mrcactu5
I don't see what the big deal is. AirBNB can turn normal citizens into
landlords. The best hosts will actually _take care_ of their apartment. So in
theory the Free Market protects the interests of both hosts and renters.

Maybe? That's one possible way it can play out. NYC really tries to protect
the landlord's interests rather than the tents. NYC would be a different place
if normal people (who aren't millionaires) actually owned their places.

Free market could drive prices even higher than they are today. I don't know.

------
akvadrako
It's unbelievable how many people in this thread are supporting AirBnB with
ridiculous arguments like it's not a business or the government can't regulate
what you do with your house.

Isn't there a point where the quantity of astroturfing becomes counter-
productive?

------
cheriot
I've still not been able to figure out how in many cities I can rent a room in
an apartment for less than a room in a hotel. How does the hotel industry not
have huge economies of scale? Are the hotel taxes and cost of extra fire codes
impacting the price that much?

------
skizm
Anyone know if it is still legal to rent one of your rooms on airbnb if you
are also staying there at the same time? Like if I have a two bedroom
apartment, can I still rent out one of them on a daily/weekly basis if I am
staying in the other?

------
mancerayder
Anyone know if this applies to two-family houses?

As far as I know, the Multiple Dwelling Law applies limits to 3 and 4-family
homes, limiting specifically rentals that are less than 30 days.

Now, it seems that one and two-family homes are excluded?

------
iamleppert
Wasn't there a study done that shows Airbnb hosts actually account for a small
fraction of the homes? I'd really like to see these politicians back up these
claims with some data. Where do they get this information from?

It seems highly suspect that this could cause a decrease in units on the
market that is anywhere close to affecting the housing problems in NYC.

Whenever I see a politician throw out the word "senior" and "quiet enjoyment"
I smell a rat. The more obvious answer is the hotels don't like this kind of
competition (staying in an Airbnb is infinitely better than a Hotel) and have
bribed these politicians.

Wasn't Andrew Cuomo in the center of all the mortgage scandal stuff years
back? Can this guy just go away?

------
jrockway
This is just New York politics, right?

Here's how it works. We in NYC send all our tax dollars upstate, and then as a
favor, they make all the laws for us.

------
willholloway
I escaped NYC and moved to a neighboring state, along the coast, in a tourist
town in a relatively economically depressed area.

I grew up in this town, and it used to be vibrant and vital and full of young
families. It has gotten older, as the younger generation has not been able to
afford to take on the homes of their parents, as the job market is not strong.

I bought a waterfront three family house, a house that used to be one owner,
and one or two tenants on the other floors.

I renovated the house, and furnished the other floors. It took me all summer,
doing the work myself. I have been renting the other two floors out on airbnb
and other sites. I love it.

I feel like I have reclaimed my house from other tenants. I own the whole
house, yes I let in guests for a few days on the other floors, but they leave,
and I can go back into the floors when they are not booked.

I can have a change of scenery, and I get income from this whole thing.

I love this. I don't want to rent to long term tenants. Its a house, but
divided into apartments for each floor. I want to control it. I like taking
guests but I dont want to sell a floor for a year.

It books well on these sites because its waterfront and in a tourist area. Its
a lot of work. A lot of work. I have to scrub showers and toilets and make
beds, and I only get a few hours in between guests many days. But the money is
good and its a form of early retirment for me.

I don't see any externalities to the neighbors, in fact the neighbors are
better off living next to a vacation rental than a multi family house.

In a multi family investment propery the incentives are all about putting in
as little money as possible. In a vacation rental its all about making it look
as nice as possible.

The extra margin of the vacation rental makes all the difference. Now I care
about reviews, so now I want the outside to be professionally landscaped. Now
I want the lawn to be perfectly manicured. I want the siding to be nice cedar
shingles, I want it to look perfect.

Because people rate your house on the basis of whether or not its nicer than
their house at home. If its nicer, they give you 5 star reviews and that helps
your listing SEO, if its less nice than their house they give you 4 stars and
that hurts your listing.

So if I lived in this neighborhood, I would want to live next to a vacation
rental. It is a higher class of occupant. Instead of working class tenants
that can afford 1000 a month, you get professionals that can put 1000 on a
credit card 4 months ahead of time for their kids graduation weekend.

So its a form of gentrification. But its also a service to the community. In
the spring, summer and fall months where demand is high I am doing short term
vacation rentals. But in the winter months I am opening up a fully furnished
place to people who may be between houses.

The working class renters have plenty of options in the less desirable, more
inland parts of town. And those options will stay because the only reason I
can get decent occupancy rates are because the house is waterfront and in a
tourist area.

And at the end of the day this is my house! I want to be able to do what I
want to do with it, and I like having short term guests. I like meeting all of
these people. Its like international travel without having to go anywhere.

So I raise my middle finger to Cuomo and his lackeys, I support homeowners
rights. The battle cry is My House! My House!

Punish people for bad behavior, not for uses you don't like. And maybe in a
city where everyone is packed in like tuna in a can its impossible but one
size fits all law is unjust.

There are plenty of communities in upstate new york where vacation rentals are
completely appropriate. My cousin does cleaning and management for vacation
rentals in upstate NY, and Cuomo just fucked her, a working class person
running her own business in an economically depressed region.

So Fuck you Cuomo, fuck you.

~~~
troisx
I'm a little confused by your comment. Are you saying that you're running an
illegal AirBNB rental? Because that's what this is targeting, people already
breaking the zoning laws. Also, are you saying that your cousin will lose her
job because it services people who are breaking the law? Because those are the
only people affected by this law. Is that a bad thing?

~~~
willholloway
Luckily I don't live in NY and short term rentals are perfectly legal in my
town and state.

What I am saying are the laws in NY are too strict and strangling growth.

------
EGreg
Wait a sec, can homeowners still rent out their primary residence when they
are away?

I thought the law only prohibited hotel-like stuff.

------
yuhong
I wonder what would happen if there was a spot and contract market for housing
like there is for DRAM.

------
Apofis
How the fuck does Cuomo have the power to ban Airbnb only in NYC? isn't he a
state governer?

~~~
travisby
NYC has in the past pushed state laws that just affect NYC. Gun laws in
particular I'm more familiar with [state preemption - except for NYC where
they can enact their own gun laws], but some taxing is specially allowed for
NYC too. It's not unheard of for state-level legislators (from NYC) to push
for something to the state either because 1) the state constitution doesn't
allow a city to do XYZ, or 2) because the city government doesn't see eye to
eye with the state representatives living there

------
marketanarchist
Great, another government overreach. Hopefully someone finds a clever solution
around it that protects this peaceful and voluntary economic activity.

------
transfire
I hear they'll make an exception for veterans. You _have_ to house soldiers.
Says so right in the constitution. ;)

------
rednerrus
How many posters in this thread work, in some capacity, for the hotel lobby?

~~~
Symbiote
Likely none, but plenty of us seem to live in apartment buildings in appealing
areas of cities.

------
peterkshultz
The title seems like clickbait, especially given the fact that the legislation
isn't targeting those who use Airbnb to rent out a spare room.

------
sonar_un
So if I have to stay in NYC for 3 weeks, I am screwed.

Thanks Cuomo, you just made me have to cough up double the price for a shitty
hotel.

~~~
joshcohen
When I visited NY recently I found that hotel pricing was competitive with
AirBnB.

Some people prefer AirBnB so they can feel like they live in the cities
they're visiting, this certainly sucks for them.

~~~
nostromo
> When I visited NY recently I found that hotel pricing was competitive with
> AirBnB.

This didn't used to be the case, so you can thank Airbnb in part for finding a
reasonably priced hotel room.

~~~
joshcohen
Indeed!

------
aabajian
I rented my Manhattan studio for a month using a Craigslist post. It took less
than 10 minutes to make the post, and the place was rented by the end of the
day. I had no pictures, and five sentences describing my place. As another
poster has already mentioned, Airbnb just made the process safer and more
efficient. That efficiency has final affected the bottom-line on hotels,
making this a political move. New York will never be "Silicon Alley" with
moves like this.

~~~
CPLX
> New York will never be "Silicon Alley" with moves like this.

Tragic. Guess we'll just have to settle for being the greatest city in the
history of world civilization.

~~~
tbarbugli
Ancient Rome, home of 20% world's population, is going to be hard to beat, but
yes NYC is pretty cool too :)

------
wyager
Airbnb is great because it allows people to circumvent stupid, expensive, and
counterproductive government regulation on hotelling. Airbnbing is vastly
superior to traditional hotelling per dollar spent.

This is what people are talking about when they refer to "common sense"
regulation or regulation to "protect consumers"; they mean taking economic and
social autonomy away from people. Even if a given bill doesn't cost much when
amortized over tens of millions of people, they cost a lot to society as a
whole, and they start to add up. I don't care what your political theory about
regulation is; it is _extremely_ apparent from comparing Airbnbs to hotels
that, at least in this area, regulations have made society worse, not better.
I hope Airbnb beats this.

------
djyaz1200
I am disgusted but not surprised. When I was commuting back and forth between
SFO and PDX I had apartments in both cities. I was able to dramatically offset
my costs by Airbnb'ing the apartment I wasn't in at any given time... this
helped me launch my business and I'm so thankful for that! The first time this
worked out it was an obvious win/win for me and the renter. Right after being
excited my next thought was... "wow this really let's the little guy do a
little better"... I'm sure this won't last...

~~~
untog
At the risk of stating the obvious, if you're commuting back and forth between
SFO and PDX to launch a business you are not the "little guy".

The "little guy" earns minimum wage and can barely afford to keep their own
apartment, let alone rent out a spare one when they're travelling regularly
between two cities. All AirBnB does is raise the "little guy"'s rent when the
other apartments in their building become short-term hotels for tourists.

~~~
djyaz1200
You should have seen these apts. Not fancy. You're right I'm not working at
Taco Bell, but you almost certainly make more money than I do. I was able to
live a multi-city life on a shoestring budget thanks to a narrow window
provided by AirBnb. I'm disappointed others may not have that opportunity.

------
YuriNiyazov
I regularly go to NYC for a month with my partner and son so that the
grandparents can interact with their grandson. I always AirBnB a place near
the residential neighborhood that my parents live in.

Because we have a young child, we prefer our own apartment, rather than
staying with the grandparents, nor would the three of us be able to stay in
"someone's spare room".

This new bill is absolutely terrible for us, because it limits us to staying
in expensive hotels, for a month!

EDIT: There's no mention of 30+ days limit anywhere in the article as far I
can tell.

~~~
untog
Actually, no - the legislation allows rentals with a minimum of 30 days.

~~~
YuriNiyazov
There's no mention of that anywhere.

~~~
untog
There is in this article: [http://www.reuters.com/article/us-airbnb-
regulation-insight-...](http://www.reuters.com/article/us-airbnb-regulation-
insight-idUSKCN12L0DY)

> Existing New York state law bars most urban apartment-dwellers from renting
> out their units for less than 30 days if they are not present.

It appears this new law is relating to the _advertising_ of such rentals -
presumably as a way to more effectively clamp down on those that were already
illegal.

