
New York Has a Great Subway, If You’re Not in a Wheelchair - daegloe
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/29/opinion/new-york-has-a-great-subway-if-youre-not-in-a-wheelchair.html
======
Mythanar
I highly suspect it is plain cheaper (and more convenient) to just subsidize
private car rides for disabled people than making entire transit
infrastructure in huge city to account for them.

Better yet, take the money that government would otherwise spend on building
all the wheelchair accomodations, and just distribute that between wheelchair
users. I am sure many of them would prefer that over subway improvements which
they might never use.

"Disabled people cannot reach their [work, school, childcare, w/e]", if true,
is a valid problem. There are multiple ways to solve that problem. "NYC subway
does not have wheelchair accomodations" is a useless outrage over
circumstantial symptoms.

~~~
matthewmacleod
Remember that it's not just people in wheelchairs who benefit from
accessibility though. The elderly, injured infirm, people with small children
etc. also find accessibility helpful.

Modern accessibility policy is focused in a large part around allowing people
with accessibility requirement to live as normal a life as possible. It's not
going to change overnight, but by making sure that all new construction and
refurbishments are accessible, over time the situation will improve. The only
quibble is over the extent of funding that will be made available.

~~~
r0naa
>Remember that it's not just people in wheelchairs who benefit from
accessibility though.

In addition to that, I wager there's value in extending the current
infrastructure so as to not ostracize disabled people even further.

~~~
ethbro
I think grandparent comment's point was that at some point, greater good for
disabled people can be delivered by specifically helping them rather than re-
engineering the world to fit them. Considering that each has a concrete price
tag attached to it.

The "wheelchair that can climb stairs" vs "adding ramps everywhere"
comparison.

I feel like in the past the latter made more economic sense, but at some point
technology might tip the balance the other way.

------
struct
It's the same situation in London, only about 25% of Underground stations are
accessible[1]. This seems to be the cost of old infrastructure - when most of
the network was built, accessibility simply wasn't a consideration. Neither
was having a decent mobile signal, or air conditioning. Fortunately, we've
learned from this and newer systems like the ones in Shanghai and Taiwan seem
to be far more accessible.

[1] [https://tfl.gov.uk/transport-accessibility/wheelchair-
access...](https://tfl.gov.uk/transport-accessibility/wheelchair-access-and-
avoiding-stairs)

~~~
Reason077
Progress is being made, however. Stations are currently being retrofitted for
step-free acccess at the rate of around 30 stations every 5 years.

OK, it'll be many decades before every station is fully accessible at that
rate. But progress is being made. The Tube is infrastructure which will likely
still be around for decades or centuries to come, so it's worth doing.

TfL's online status tools and journey planner are also pretty good at keeping
track of any lift outages, etc, so it's unlikely anyone will turn up to a
station to find a broken lift unexpectedly.

------
georgefrick
There have been other attempts to bring awareness to this problem. Here is a
half funny, half sad version:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhpUJRGrZgc&ab_channel=Cereb...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhpUJRGrZgc&ab_channel=CerebralPalsyFoundation)

I like the approach of sharing some data / statistics; but it would be nice if
we could combine the two. The saturated humor when combined with the real
information might make more of an impact.

------
spyspy
> only 92 of the system’s 425 stations accessible

> On average, 25 elevators a day stop working

Do 27% of elevators really break down on a _daily_ basis? That is abysmal if
accurate.

~~~
slowandlow
I don't see too many elevators and hopefully it gets fixed with the push the
governor is making towards modernizing stations across NYC.

It's important to remember that a lot of the stations, in Lower Manhattan
especially, are way too small (4-5 foot wide platforms with 2 stairwells). I
don't see elevators happening at those stations. A lot of these smaller
platforms are connected other small platforms via stairs (think Canal Street -
JZQNR6).

Good luck if your stop is on a bridge in Brooklyn or Queens.

~~~
kalleboo
They could install stair lifts?

~~~
stuaxo
In London (Clapham Junction at least) they have tracked vehicles that can take
a wheelchair up the Victorian stairs

------
houshuang
Same in Paris, we just vacationed there for five days, with a two year old.
Very difficult to navigate in a stroller (good proxy for a wheelchair - I can
lift it down the stairs, but my wife cannot alone). However, there it's quite
a difficult problem to solve (I recognize) because a lot of the transfers
between different stations are a bunch of underground hallways with staircases
in all directions, so it's not simply enough to add elevators from the
stations to platform level.

~~~
athenot
In Paris, the accessible stations are indicated on the maps. While that
doesn't fix the accessibility issue, it can help a little bit with finding
alternate stations.

------
jessaustin
It's certainly past time that some tiny fraction of the billions of dollars
spent on accessibility were spent subsidizing modes of travel that don't
require such bland and dehumanized environs. Elevators on medium-sized
buildings (and subways) are a nuisance, in that they make most of the
population less healthy in exchange for 0.7% of the population being able to
explore every nook. If the law hadn't cemented handicapped rights to use dated
technology, many people already would be using something capable of climbing
stairs. Yes, that "something" would probably cost more than a wheelchair that
could have been manufactured in 1950. Since the mobility of the handicapped is
in society's interest, society can subsidize it, rather than mandating that
brick-and-mortar businesses do so.

~~~
mcguire
This is true. For example, carrying an apartment's worth of furniture up to
the 7th floor will drastically improve your cardiovascular health. Or kill
you.

------
pinaceae
Vienna retro-fitted every subway station with wheelchair and stroller
compatible elevators.

Don't discount the latter, so much easier for parents to use the subway that
way.

It totally can be done. The US carved off a slice of every sidewalk to allow
for ramps for wheelchairs, nationwide.

~~~
cameldrv
It's simpler in Vienna though because they have a proof of payment system. You
just need one elevator to the platform. In NY, you need one to the turnstiles,
and then another one to the platform.

~~~
Markoff
why they use actually turnstiles in NY? seem very inefficient on par with jams
i experienced in Beijing which user them too

though i can understand need for them in China where people even refill their
bottles in IKEA at self serving driving machines, but one would think that
Americans are more honest

------
randyrand
Given that 1 in 10,000 people in NYC are in wheelchairs,

I really think it would be orders of magnitude more cost effective for the
government to pay for disabled persons cab fares than to make public transit
accessible. Has anyone run the numbers?

~~~
leonatan
Would there also be interest paid for time lost in traffic? New York roads are
tight and always busy, something the public transit system is supposed to
workaround.

~~~
setr
Public transport is supposed to alleviate congestion on the road. That there
exists those unwilling or unable to make use of it is irrelevant, so long as a
sufficient percentage of the driving population can and do use it over driving
themselves.

There is no reason to imagine that compensating those not using it (for any
reason, be it disability or in a niche area in the city, or simply unwilling)
would be a part of the goal of providing public transportation.

It is _not_ a gift to the people from bottom of the government's heart, that
they would try to offer an alternative gift to those unable or unwilling to
partake in this wonderful service.

------
guruz
What about mothers/fathers with baby buggies?

~~~
nemo44x
You carry the buggy up the stairs together and if you're on your own a
stranger will help you. It's very common to see this (and to help people when
you see they need help) in NYC.

Beside our reputation, we're a friendly bunch here.

~~~
pavel_lishin
It's also true of wheelchairs.

My wife and I helped a man in a wheelchair up some stairs in Brooklyn, since
his alternative was taking the train about five stops down to an elevator-
equipped station, then getting on a bus, and coming right back. At that time
of night, we optimistically estimated an hour for him to do so... or about 60
seconds for us to carry him up.

------
maxxxxx
When we were in Paris last year my girlfriend broke her foot and I had to push
her around in a wheelchair. It's a real pain to see that some elevator is not
working and you have to walk half a mile to find the next one. Since then I
have much more respect for people who have to deal with this every day.

------
perseusprime11
I don't agree that New York has a Great Subway. It is really dirty. The
homeless people use it as their home as they don't have any where else to go.

~~~
charles-salvia
It runs 24 hours and extensively covers 4 of the 5 boroughs. Yes, it's dirty,
but the coverage + availability is what makes it a great system - it's
certainly unparalleled in the Western hemisphere. Everytime I go to San
Francisco I realize how awesome the NYC subway really is.

------
popopobobobo
I think MTA should also consider putting a barrier on the edge of the
platform. So that we won't get dozens of people being pushed off to the rails.

~~~
grardb
Do you have a source for how often this happens? I can't find anything
specifically about subway pushers in NYC. As far as I can tell, it's a very
rare occurrence.

That being said, I see fairly high numbers of deaths in general, mainly
attributed to suicides and alcohol/drug use.

How would this barrier work? Would it withdraw once the train pulled up or
something?

~~~
metaphorm
have you ever seen the tube system in London? it's a fully blocking barrier
with a set of sliding doors that lines up precisely with the doors of the
train cars when they pull in to the station.

that's probably the ideal solution, but not practical for New York because the
system was never designed with precision stopping points on the platform in
mind. there's a margin of error that is at least a meter or so in either
direction right now.

~~~
stuaxo
Only on new lines with straight platforms. Older ones are almost all on
curves, a guy in the sliding doors business told me they looked into but the
cost was too high as each station is on a different circumference bend so they
would all be custom jobs.

------
Findy3ti
Zach Anner recently did something similar showing just how long it takes to
get across New York when in a wheelchair
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhpUJRGrZgc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhpUJRGrZgc)

------
_audakel
You could have "service stations" where people who want to do service aka do
good could go. Wheel chair people could wait there for someone who was going
to ride the subway anyway to walk past and, wanting to do good in the world,
help the disabled person get on.

------
Clanan
I remember reading the news story about the author's accident. Very
interesting/sobering to read about life since then. More on topic, I'm
considering a move to NYC and the thought of navigating the city with young
kids is almost stressful itself.

------
virtuexru
Yet they are slated to raise the prices again next year. It's already $2.75
for a regular swipe. FeelsBadMan.

~~~
codq
As someone who recently moved to NYC from the SF Bay Area, it's a pleasure to
swipe for a ride, even at $3.

That's a static fee to go _anywhere_. In the Bay Area, your BART ticket fee is
dependent on where you want to go--at it's most extreme, can be up to
$20/ride.

$2.75-$3 to get anywhere in NYC is an absolute bargain.

~~~
dionidium
Up to 155 miles on one fare, if you have 14 hours, don't mind 54 transfers,
and, one supposes, really don't like yourself

[http://www.citylab.com/navigator/2015/09/a-man-rode-the-
long...](http://www.citylab.com/navigator/2015/09/a-man-rode-the-longest-nyc-
subway-ride-so-you-dont-have-to/403924/)

~~~
ars
He's going to have to do it again. The SUBWAYTRON5000 found an even longer
ride.

------
ufmace
This article paints a pretty negative view of it, but looking at the numbers,
that might not be the case:

425 stations total 92 stations accessible

Boston has 53 stations, with "90% wheelchair accessible", sounds like 48 to
me.

So "lousy" NYC has almost double the number of wheelchair accessible stations
as "great" Boston, and 8 times the total number of stations.

Sadly, retrofitting more elevators into existing stations, especially many of
the smaller ones, is a tough sell. It would at least be nice if they could do
a better job of maintaining them and keeping track of the ones that are down
and what the best alternative route is.

And the program, mentioned elsewhere in this thread, to provide discounted van
service, is probably much better, considering the challenge of getting to and
between stations when disabled.

~~~
nkoren
> So "lousy" NYC has almost double the number of wheelchair accessible
> stations as "great" Boston, and 8 times the total number of stations.

That's comparing apples to watermelons.

Boston has a population of 650,000; New York, 8.5 million. So in Boston there
is one accessible station per 13,500 residents. In New York, one per 92,400
residents. (The _total_ residents per station is much more comparable, at
12.2k and 20k respectively).

This suggests that a more like-for-like basis, New York is roughly 4 to 7
times less accessible than Boston.

Edit: Actually, here's a better way to think about it, which does work a bit
more in New York's favor. A variant of Metcalfe's law[1] applies to transport
networks, in that the utility of a network is proportional to the total number
of journeys that can be taken within it. So Boston has (48^2 - 48)/2 = 1,128
accessible origin/destination pairs, while NYC has 4,186 O/D pairs. So 1.73
accessible O/D pairs per thousand residents in Boston, versus 0.49 in New
York.

For an able-bodied resident, Boston provides 2.12 trips per thousand
residents, 10.6 trips per thousand residents for NYC. So if you're not in a
wheelchair, then NYC is five times better than Boston. But if you _are_ in a
wheelchair, then NYC is 3.5 times worse.

1:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metcalfe's_law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metcalfe's_law)

~~~
ufmace
Thanks, that's an interesting calculation, and I didn't take population into
account. The 650k to 8.5M sounds like a higher ratio than I'd expect though.
If we take the MSA from rrdharan's post, NYC metro population is 4x greater
rather than 13x with your numbers. If we use those numbers, then we'd get
accessible pairs per thousand residents of 0.2093 for NYC, and 0.2256 for
Boston, which makes Boston about 8% better.

I'm not sure how valid that is though, since at least for the NYC area, that
MSA population is for the tri-state area, which is served by a number of other
rail lines, and the majority of which isn't directly accessible to the NYC MTA
system that those numbers are for. I don't know as much about the Boston area,
but seems like a fair guess that those 5M people mostly don't have direct
access to the Boston city transit, and may or may not be served by various
other transit systems. Can any Bostonians confirm or deny?

~~~
ghc
A someone working with MBTA data I can chime in.

The story is rather complicated. Boston's subway system serves a population of
around 2 million, including administratively separate cities like Somerville,
Cambridge, Brookline and Newton that are more like boroughs than separate
cities. The rest is served by the commuter rail system and bus system, which
do a good job of covering most people (probably about 4 million of 5 million).

There's actually 145 subway stations (though that includes a few underground
stations on the silver line, technically BRT for now), but the article didn't
the green line (America's first subway, 1898), because it's a "light rail"
subway, not a "heavy rail" subway. Those stations all got retrofitted with
wheelchair access or else were already above ground stations with access.

It's fair to say that those 145 stations serve about 1/4 the population of the
MTA in New York.

