
Electric scooters are causing injuries and accidents - ghaff
https://www.cnet.com/news/electric-scooters-by-bird-and-lime-are-causing-injuries-and-accidents/
======
around_here
File under "pretty obvious if you think about it".

On motorcycles, the rule to live by is All The Gear, All The Time. On mopeds,
it's apparently Helmet With Maybe A Jacket. On electric scooters, it's Lol.
The truth is that it should always be ATGATT on all 3. Going down on any of
them is going to be exactly the same as going down at the same speed on a
motorcycle.

One of the things you learn during rider training is that "stuck throttle" is
usually panic freezing your wrist in place. Same goes for brakes that aren't
working. I'll grant you that the scoots probably aren't maintained super well
either, so it might be more likely there than on your personal machine.

All these rentals are adding up to just one thing: A lot more untrained,
inexperienced motorcycle riders on the roads (and sometimes the sidewalks).
The results are pretty obvious if you think about it.

Edit: Typo that I noticed.

~~~
saagarjha
> Going down on any of them is going to be exactly the same as going down at
> the same speed on a motorcycle.

I'm all for better safety, but I think this is an overreaction. I'd compare
falling off a scooter to be similar to falling off a bike–you're dealing with
similar speeds and similar weight vehicles in both.

~~~
dymk
Eh - I've fallen off a bike twice at relatively low speeds, and both time I've
broken a bone (first time a finger, second time a scaphoid fracture).

I think it's important not to under-react just because the speeds are lower
than a motorcycle - all those bones in our limbs break just as well at 10mph.
When on a bike or a scooter, scaphoid wrist protection and at least a jacket
on at all times, for me.

~~~
tomcam
What about the danger to pedestrians hit by the driver of a scooter?

~~~
dymk
The risk is lower on a scooter than on a motorcycle. We don't have to over-
correct though, and treat scooters like they're _that much_ safer than a
motorcycle.

The most dangerous thing we can do is let ourselves mentally relax when we're
on one, as if we're not on a big sharp chunk of (relatively) fast metal and
inertia.

A helmet wearing person slamming headfirst into the nape of somebody's neck at
15 or 50 miles per hour is probably going to kill them.

~~~
masonic

      The risk is lower on a scooter than on a motorcycle. 
    

On the road, yes. But motorcycles don't routinely take the sidewalks.

------
user-x
Can I just mention I find it very strange that there are hip techy Silicon
Valley startups that invest their time in these scooters, when from a pure
engineering perspective these things are doomed to be unsafe. COG is very high
above the ground, which makes keeping balance more difficult. Wheels are close
to the COG in the horizontal direction, making it easier to fall forward over
the steering handle. Wheel radius is small causing the scooter to get stuck
behind all pits in the road and stuff like that. I mean sure it’s fun to ride
these things but please tell me this is not the Technology Age’s means of
transportation. Apart from that I found this article to be quite sensational.
I’m missing the cold hard statistics proving these things are actually
dangerous, which do not (yet) exist as stated in the article itself.

~~~
baroffoos
Yeah I'm not quite sure why scooters were chosen. ebikes seem better in every
way. You can even set them up with throttles so they are no effort. Bike
geometry is very stable. I have never fallen off a bike on a road.

~~~
ec109685
They take way more space than scooters.

~~~
secabeen
Especially comparing folded scooters to bikes. (Yes, there are foldable bikes,
but they're still big). Part of the workflow of shared scooters is picking
them up for recharge and re-location, and you can fit a lot more scooters in
the back of an SUV than you can bikes.

~~~
tonyedgecombe
Just swop the batteries on e-bikes then.

~~~
baroffoos
Thats what I have heard the Chinese companies do, just drive around with a van
full of batteries.

------
gibolt
Shall we compare this to car injuries/fatalities?

Wouldn't it be great if there was suitable lanes without potholes that weren't
'shared' with cars (cars don't share).

Injuries are to be expected, some users will ride stupidly, and unfortunate
things happen. Add thousands of scooter each having 10 rides a day, of course
injuries will rise.

~~~
csours
Sure, let's use per-mile-travelled statistics.

~~~
gibolt
Not a fair comparison. Speeds and afforded space are different. Cars aren't
driving on the same roads as airplanes.

Time spent is a better approximation, taking into account additional safety
provided by seatbelts and an enclosure.

~~~
csours
What does fair even mean in this context?

Are you saying cars get demerits for having safety equipment?

------
cheriot
It's the same answer for why so many more bicyclists are killed by cars in
America than Europe. We need protected lanes that are separated from cars by
more than paint.

[https://peopleforbikes.org/blog/14-ways-to-make-bike-
lanes-b...](https://peopleforbikes.org/blog/14-ways-to-make-bike-lanes-better-
the-infographic/)

It's a lot simpler for bicycles and scooters to live side by side than either
of them with cars.

Some basics like safety standards for rented transportation are even easier.

~~~
tribby
I ride my bike in sf and oakland where these scooters are common, and I do not
like the idea of sharing an enclosed lane with them. so many people riding
them are completely inexperienced and bad at passing and turning or otherwise
uninterested in the general flow of traffic. they are a nuisance and I do not
want to share a lane with them that I can't swerve out of. I honestly don't
want them in bike lanes at all.

~~~
cheriot
Are you against new cyclists using bike lanes as well? Inexperienced riders
are a hazard on any form of transportation.

~~~
tribby
no, inexperienced cyclists are fairly predictable and practically never ride
on busy city streets. they are not at all a problem for me.

------
carapace
> Under current state law, people must wear helmets while riding these
> vehicles, which can travel at 15 mph. Bird sponsored a bill in February to
> get rid of that law, which passed in September. Starting January, helmets
> will no longer be required for scooter riders in California.

> Bird said its goal in sponsoring the legislation was to create "consistent
> ridership rules" between e-scooters and e-bikes since helmets aren't
> required with e-bikes.

So they are actively working to enable more severe injuries _and_ cloaking the
move in an appeal to "consistency". That seems pretty grotesque to me.

(Why aren't helmets required with e-bikes!?)

~~~
ghaff
I’m not a particular fan of e-scooters but IMO adults should have pretty broad
latitude in what safety equipment they choose to wear.

~~~
carapace
What happens if adults don't have pretty broad latitude in the safety
equipment they choose to wear?

~~~
kakarot
On one hand, you have personal liberty and what I believe to be the "right to
die". On the other hand, you have complications with insurance, or depending
on who is more at fault, possible manslaughter. There's definitely a balance
to be struck somewhere. I regularly achieve speeds well above 15mph when
riding a regular bicycle downhill without a helmet and quite frankly it's
fucking stupid

------
saagarjha
> Brogan, 63, eased on the brakes as her scooter gained speed -- only to
> discover they didn't work.

I feel like this should be addressed by safety codes. Providing scooters with
brakes that don't work is completely nuts.

~~~
gibolt
This one is definitely on the company. The current fleet isn't designed with
durability in mind.

That said, unlikely, but could have been a malicious citizen who intentionally
damaged the brakes (people are super disrespectful to the green transit)

~~~
saagarjha
> people are super disrespectful to the green transit

I've found the general sentiment is that people are disrespectful to Bird and
Lime, rather than green transit in general. Something about them being an
eyesore.

~~~
gibolt
And being in public. Can't do the same to private ones because there are far
less sitting in the open.

People complain of them parked on the sidewalk with rows of car parking all
around, or riding on the sidewalk where on the street would be a death
sentence.

~~~
ghaff
Yes. I complain about them on the sidewalk if there are any number of people
there. If you’re not comfortable riding on the street don’t do so and try to
get the configuration changed so you are more comfortable.

------
jf
I decided to get myself a collapsible helmet after reading that someone I
follow on Twitter nearly got into an accident. There are quite a few options
regarding helmets [0] but only two really stand out, the Morpher [1] and the
Plixi [2] - I purchased the Plixi because it’s the only collapsible helmet
rated by Consumer Reports. I’m very happy with the helmet, especially after
comparing it with a Morpher that my coworker has.

Footnotes:

0: [https://helmets.org/folding.htm](https://helmets.org/folding.htm)

1: [https://www.morpherhelmet.com](https://www.morpherhelmet.com)

2:
[https://www.overade.com/shop/en/plixi](https://www.overade.com/shop/en/plixi)

~~~
ghaff
There are also hats with D3O material. [1] I wear one downhill skiing [2] but
it is probably less suited for scooters or bikes, especially in warmer months.

1: [https://www.d3o.com/](https://www.d3o.com/)

2: The alternative to not wearing this protection is none at all. I don't
downhill ski much these days but didn't wear a helmet when no one did and am
not about to start now.

------
zaroth
The interesting part of the article for me was that Bird helped change CA law
which previously required wearing helmets in electric scooters.

Transportation of any kind is a fairly dangerous activity. I assume it’s more
likely to be injured on a scooter than in a car, but I don’t think the hard
numbers are in.

For example if you multiply the number of miles _not_ driven by the vehicular
accident rate, you would want to subtract that number of injuries off the
scooter injury total, but surely it would still be positive.

~~~
masonic
Helmets will be mandatory until age 18.

The speed limit everywhere will be 15 MPH. Will Bird and Lime have appropriate
limiters? I doubt it.

[https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtm...](https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201720180AB2989)

~~~
nomel
In San Jose the limit is 12mph. It's implemented in software (of course).

------
njarboe
"If you hit the ground at 20mph [on a scooter] or a baseball bat hits your
head at 20mph, that's about the same thing."

Sure, riding these scooters may be the most dangerous thing that some people
have ever done besides using a motor vehicle, but they are also really fun and
useful. I'd say, let them exist for awhile and see how it works out in the
long term. Could be great for public transit and the last mile problem.

~~~
TylerE
I bet riding those things is far far far more deadly in terms of death/mile
than even a motorcycle.

[http://fortune.com/2018/09/22/lime-scooters-fatality-
death/](http://fortune.com/2018/09/22/lime-scooters-fatality-death/)

[https://www.texasmonthly.com/the-culture/person-died-
renting...](https://www.texasmonthly.com/the-culture/person-died-renting-
electric-rental-scooter-dallas/)

[https://dailycaller.com/2018/09/30/electric-scooter-
rental-c...](https://dailycaller.com/2018/09/30/electric-scooter-rental-
cities-accidents/)

[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-
canada-45596449](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45596449)

~~~
keyle
Been riding motorcycles for 16 years. Took a lime for a ride. Couldn't believe
I even need a license and 1 year on L/P for my bike... I didn't feel safe on
that thing, at all.

------
monksy
The more I hear about these scooters the more that I hope that they never come
to Chicago.

------
triodan
Hopefully those safety concerns will force cities to accommodate electric
scooters as part of their transportation infrastructure, leading to proper
lanes, safety inspections and docking stations, instead of banning them nilly-
willy.

The current urban infrastructure in America are build for automobiles,
specifically cars, with bikes being an afterthought. The mass adoption of
electric scooters will eventually cause a wake-up call for city planners, and
will hopefully put the brakes on car culture.

------
gregwtmtno
We're talking about two deaths total here? How many people were killed in
automobile crashes since this article was published?

Even in the example the article uses, automobiles are the problem. What does
the author suppose the busy intersection is busy with? The intersection is
only dangerous because of the automobiles using it.

"Scooter accidents happen for a lot of reasons ... sometimes, the scooter is
the problem. As she sped down that hill in San Diego, her husband yelled to
Brogan to crash into him in order to break her fall. But she didn't want to
send him flying. So moments before careening into the busy intersection, she
held her arms up against her chest and slid the scooter out sideways."

------
Jamesbaxter29
Scooters are amazing. I could see how some people could feel unsafe on them
but besides the one offs I think its silly to demonize the scooters. People
can always bring their own scooter and even bikes to the road. It says all
over the scooters near me to keep them off the road as well

------
the_clarence
San Francisco is really dumb about scooters at the moment. I can’t ride one
because I don’t have a driver license. So I need to learn how to drive a
freaking car and risk my life in one of these deadly machine to have the
privilege of riding a kick scooter

~~~
gjs278
only 90% of people can figure out how to drive. you’ll be ok

~~~
the_clarence
I do not care about driving

~~~
gjs278
then you’ll never get to go on the scooters

~~~
the_clarence
I already did, outside of SF it is fine.

------
egypturnash
Move fast. Break things.

~~~
melling
And kill people:

[https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/11/28/90-year-old-
woma...](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/11/28/90-year-old-woman-dies-
collision-electric-scooter/)

------
exodust
Why didn't she use the rear foot brake? If you're going down a hill, you will
definitely want to hover your back foot on the brake.

The foot brake can't malfunction because you are physically pressing the rear
guard against the wheel with downward force. If the user isn't aware of the
rear brake, that's user error.

That said, maybe lime scooters don't have rear brakes?

The other thing is, these scooters are great. I wouldn't rent one, because you
don't know if the last person was doing jumps and stunts on it, which they are
not designed for. But they are amazing little transport devices which help
people get to their destination quicker.

~~~
alphabettsy
Maybe she didn’t know it had one, which is one of the major problems with any
type of rental device. A rental device that a user isn’t familiar with is
subject to misuse by uninformed users. Imagine if we allowed car rentals to
people who had never driven before or bike rentals for people who never
learned to drive. I’m not suggesting there should be a license for these and
maybe that’s just the cost of having them.

------
kccqzy
> "I blew through three intersections and luckily didn't get hit," she said.
> "I'm now going 25 mph heading toward six lanes of traffic."

Honestly 25 mph isn't that fast. Many healthy cyclists can achieve 25 mph
quite easily, although perhaps not for a very long time. If you regularly
cycle in places with steeper slopes, 25 mph can be achieved without much
effort.

But I think the smallness of the scooters themselves could contribute to a
feeling of being unsafe. Psychologically it feels that the object is too small
to be able for the user to remain in control. This is in contrast to a bike,
when the user simply feels more in control even at a similar speed.

~~~
tuxxy
I fell off my bike going downhill after hitting a pothole going roughly 30mph.
I wasn't wearing a helmet. Yes, it was exceptionally irresponsible of me. The
accident looked so bad, it stopped car traffic all around me and I heard a
driver saying, "Oh my God, he's dead" because I wasn't moving and had blood
all over me. When I got to the ER, the doctors said I'm lucky to be alive with
the head trauma I suffered (remarkably, only a concussion). I walked away with
horrible road rash (and a bald spot) on the back of my head. I got several
cuts on my face that made me bleed profusely. My arm looked mangled, but it
was just really scratched up.

What the fuck do you mean 25mph isn't fast on a bike?

------
brownbat
I'd like to know some estimate of the rate of disabling or deadly accidents
per mile ridden to appreciate the scale of the problem.

The lack of gear and training probably makes accidents worse than they would
be. But how frequently and how severe?

> "Some of these injuries have been life-threatening; others have left people
> permanently disabled."

How many does "some" represent here? Definitely some fraction of the total
injuries, which "could be as high as 1,000 per month."

Why "could be?" How uncertain is that figure and what other reasonable
estimates of injury rates are there??

On the one hand, the "vast majority end up getting discharged with cuts and
scrapes," but on the other hand, "some people may need lifelong care."

How many? And why are you hedging with "may?"

There are some specific numbers in the article-- but they are for individual
emergency rooms, without the additional context necessary to extrapolate from
that ER over any large regions. And then the information from different ERs
ranges so widely as to appear to contradict each other.

I left the article with two takeaways:

1) I assume this is a very real problem.

2) I hate how we reward nonspecificity and anecdotal evidence in journalism.
The problem's serious enough to at least take a shot at metrics that would
help us to compare it to other social problems, like motorcycle or car or
pedestrian injuries.

~~~
darpa_escapee
> On the one hand, the "vast majority end up getting discharged with cuts and
> scrapes," but on the other hand, "some people may need lifelong care."

> How many? And why are you hedging with "may?"

That's a quote from a doctor about specific cases that went through a specific
hospital he works at. That's why.

I've posted the full quote below, for context. Ironically, the journalist went
through the effort of giving some very concrete numbers:

> _Doctors in Dell Seton 's emergency room say they're seeing about 10
> injuries a day._

> _" The vast majority end up getting discharged with cuts and scrapes, maybe
> a broken bone," said Ziebell. "But some injuries are significant."_

> _The hospital has seen 37 severe traumas since April: eight head injuries,
> 23 orthopedic injuries, four facial injuries and two "other" injuries. In
> October alone, doctors say 18 people were admitted to either the intensive
> care unit or surgeries with overnight hospital stays._

> _" The folks that had severe head injuries, they're in for a long course of
> rehab," Ziebell said. "Some people may need lifelong care, like a nursing
> home."_

~~~
brownbat
> Ironically, the journalist went through the effort of giving some very
> concrete numbers:

C'mon. I addressed that in my very next sentence after the one you quoted.

A "concrete number" that is an arbitrary slice of the problem is more
misleading than helpful.

The concrete numbers provided here, about individual ERs, with no indication
as to what slice of the problem we're talking about, are essentially random
noise when considering the problem as a whole.

~~~
darpa_escapee
> The concrete numbers provided here, about individual ERs, with no indication
> as to what slice of the problem we're talking about, are essentially random
> noise when considering the problem as a whole.

Again, the article lays this out concretely:

> _Because rentable electric scooters are so new, federal and local officials
> haven 't started tracking accidents, and the companies have declined to
> release any stats._ But some numbers are beginning to appear.

Then, they list the concrete numbers they _do_ know.

~~~
brownbat
Huh. I don't feel like that was a "concrete" rebuttal to the point I actually
made, especially when you really look at the "numbers" they cite next in the
article, but I want to take a step back.

I think it's getting lost in the noise, so to reiterate, my main point is that
I'd just like journalism to include a little more analysis, to put numbers in
context, and to avoid relying extensively on emotional appeals as a substitute
for chalkboards or backs-of-napkins when dealing with complex social problems.

Based on your username, maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like you know what it's
like to wrangle data and communicate findings. Sometimes you don't have all
the data you want, but you have to make sense of what you have access to, get
signal from noise, and make reasonable extrapolations even under a lot of
initial uncertainty.

Now imagine you have access to everything the journalist had. You could ask
additional questions at the hospitals or conduct additional searches in the
public record.

If we asked, "what else could we learn about this important trend?" is your
response really, "well, if the companies don't just tell us and there's no
fully funded federal study... we just can't possibly know anything aside from
the fact there were some number greater than fifty headlines in six months."

When we stop there I get terrified that Paulos was just right, we struggle to
use numbers in public settings so nobody tries.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innumeracy_(book)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innumeracy_\(book\))

I feel like we could have, say, talked about the populations served by these
ERs, or the fraction of overall ER cases that involve scooters and how that's
changing over time. Anything to give us a sense of why these ERs vary in their
numbers by a factor of ten, to determine how representative they are, or
anything to give us a trendline. Even headline counting COULD be rigorous if
you add more methodology than this article's "quick search." The gun violence
project is one example of that approach.

The journos I really respect take these sorts of next steps. They do more with
less. Sometimes they have to hedge and caveat, but they take a shot. It's not
impossible, so I just wish we held more journalists to that higher standard,
that's all.

