
The Hottest Phones for the Next Billion Users Aren’t Smartphones - skilled
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-hottest-phones-for-the-next-billion-users-arent-smartphones-11563879608?mod=rsswn
======
rahimnathwani
Back in May, I spent a little time looking into developing an app for KaiOS,
using the official documentation.

Here are some notes I wrote to myself at the time:

\- there seem to be fewer apps on the Kai store than on the Banana Hackers
store, which seems odd, as all of those apps in the BH store should be useful
to KaiOS users

\- The official docs are kind of unclear, e.g. the API docs include some
options about storage, but don't tell me whether localStorage is available. If
I'm a web developer then I probably want to use the storage API with which I'm
already familiar.

\- another doc issue: the documentation for d-pad navigation and emulated
cursor is very confusing. I can't tell whether they are two different ways of
using the arrow keys, or whether they serve two different purposes. This means
I need to do a bunch of experimentation to see what happens

\- someone on Reddit mentioned they were waiting for app store approval, and
they had waited 6 weeks so far; seems hard to get developers that way?

~~~
writepub
The big question is: "How likely are KaiOs users willing to install third
party apps".

From the article, it seems like pre-installed apps have ample usage, no
mention of installation post hardware purchase.

~~~
rahimnathwani
The JioPhone can run WhatsApp, but it isn't pre-installed.

For that reason, I'd imagine 90% of Jiophone users in India would install at
least one third party app.

However, they would get this from the JioStore, not from the KaiOS store:
[https://faq.whatsapp.com/en/kaios/26000183/?category=5245235](https://faq.whatsapp.com/en/kaios/26000183/?category=5245235)

So if the majority of KaiOS users are using carrier-branded phones with
carrier-branded app stores, maybe the developer story for 'vanilla' KaiOS
isn't as important.

~~~
rowan_m
Users often get apps installed for them by the store at purchase. So, while
they may have 3p apps installed it's not necessarily a good signal they will
install more.

------
lovasoa
Do you remember FirefoxOS, the smartphone OS that was developed by Mozilla ?
It was abandoned in 2016, but KaiOS, the operating system powering these
feature phones, is its descendant. Firefox's rendering engine, Gecko, is at
the core of the OS, and all apps are written in HTML5/JS/CSS.

~~~
jonathanstrange
I can still not see the sense in programming cheap underpowered phones with
HTML5/JS/CSS instead of writing native software for them.

~~~
em-bee
i made a similar comment below. you expect us developers to cater to every
different device out there? i am sorry, but the whole promise of the web is
that i don't have to write native code any more.

in fact this promise was once made by steven jobs, except that the phones at
the time were not capable enough.

the question is not, what's the point of using web tech for underpowered
phones, but the question is why do you expect me to cater to a minority
market, and when do we reach the point that any device is powerful enough to
handle web tech?

because that is where the future is going. native development is a stop gap to
handle high performance requirements, but make no mistake, its days are
counted. web development is the future that will replace all app development,
whether we like it or not. even on the desktop, thanks to webassembly the
browser is the future development target on any device out there. native apps
will become a niche for only very specialized applications, and servers.

~~~
lagadu
I don't expect you to cater to a minority market, but whoever writes apps that
run significantly better than "generic" ones using html or other frameworks
(dear electron-based developers: your apps are garbage) will get my money.

Niches have a lot of money in them, to the point that entire industries
blossom just to cater to them. Things like high-end personal audio and
performance automobiles are both multi-billion industries.

~~~
em-bee
i doubt it, because you are not going to find my app. you are going to want
the same apps that everyone else uses, and the fact that there are a few apps
out there that actually run well on your phone is not going to make a serious
dent in my profits.

i have yet to hear about any apps that became popular because they performed
better than others. in the whole market, that's just a blip.

things like high-end personal audio and performance automobiles are a high-end
market market. you are asking me to create a high-performance app for a low-
end market. the dynamics here are entirely different. and the profit margin is
too.

well preforming apps for underpowered phones is a minority market.

i wouldn't even know how to promote my app to you.

 _my app is significantly faster than the competitors, and it even runs well
on your cheap semi-smart phone_

 _but does it have feature X?_

 _sorry no, because that would make it slow_

 _how much does it cost?_

 _$20_

 _uh, why did you think i bought a cheap phone?_

apps for this market will not be sold on performance, but on solving problems
that are specific to this particular group of people.

~~~
lagadu
Your argument was that you'd always want to develop universal apps in order to
cater to everyone, not niches. Now you're talking about catering to low end
garbage phones specifically. I don't doubt that catering to as large as
possible an audience works for the low end of the market spectrum but I was
arguing against the concept of ignoring niches, particularly high-end ones.

I want fast and feature X and I've no problem with $20 if it's better than the
free one.

We were talking about different markets :)

~~~
em-bee
huh, i think we are missing each other somewhere. i am talking about _not_
catering to low end phones. i thought you were talking about better performing
apps for low end phones. this whole article is about low end phones. why else
would you need high performing apps? (i mean i can imagine why you would, but
that is an entirely different topics, so please forgive me that i would miss
that.)

~~~
em-bee
in summary my argument is that:

\- writing native apps to gain a bit of performance for a minority of users is
not worth the added cost of development

\- performance is not a selection criteria for most users

\- low end phone users are unlikely to spend money on expensive apps

\- catering to low end phones only makes sense for apps that are useful to
that market. those apps have to be cheap, and that's yet another reason not to
make them native.

and i was responding to a comment how it doesn't make sense to use web
technology on low end phones.

my counter argument: it does not (no longer) make sense to write native apps.
period.

you then responded that you would pay for better performing apps, but that
puts you into a different niche demographic than the entire topic of the
article.

now one point of the article is that the demographics will change and that
there is going to be a huge market of users with low-end phones.

however that still doesn't make performance a selection criteria for people
buying apps unless the phones are not able to run any of the popular apps
which appears to be the case because kaiOS didn't even support native apps
last i checked. in other words, apps on those phones are competing in an
entirely different league, and the existing android market does not apply.

then again we have an entirely different dynamic of competing in a new market
where there are no existing contenders, and the main question is, is the
market big enough yet to make it worth it.

and since those phones run kaiOS native apps are off the table anyways

------
raxxorrax
Reflecting on it, it is completely crazy that these devices are available for
25$. Somewhere along the line of production the exploitation chain must really
work out.

Just ordered a pack of µC the other day for under 1$ per unit. These come with
powerful computation cores, floating point units, analog-digital converters,
countless integrated serial interfaces... You don't even get a coke for that
price. Completely insane world...

~~~
VvR-Ox
I don't think they use harsher practices in production.

Smartphone production is just the same:

First the people are enslaved to get the resources out of some mines, then
some Asian workers (inc. children etc.) have to assemble (996 without a loan
you'd want to live with). Then it's transported via logistics which is another
sector that refuses to treat people like human beings. In the end of the line
we have the eager sales guys who knowingly lie to customers and themselves to
get a lot of sales.

The difference is that companies earn a lot more on a single sale for a
smartphone but the scale of the sales of these feature phones could end up
being more revenue I think. On the other hand marketing costs could be much
lower because the price plus features alone would beat every smartphone at
once.

I think it's crazy we still didn't modularize these devices and have nice
OS'es for them.

~~~
jdc
Do you have a source for the slave labour claim?

~~~
raister
Let's not be naïve... If he had a source, they would have to act on it, close
everything down, and else. Then the phone price would rise to $400 and the
factory would close as well, and all the supply chain would suffer. I guess
they just turn their heads the other way on this kind of things.

~~~
VvR-Ox
That's the interesting thing - we know so much but so little changes (fast
enough). We call ourselves civilized and think about colonizing other planets
but still haven't solved the problem of poverty.

Everyone who isn't ignoring this based on a decision to do so knows about the
practices under which people have to suffer every day to sustain our nice
lifestyle here I think.

The problem is the way the whole industry works because new products need to
be sold continuously for a company to survive.

We all know climate change is here but it will take us decades to react
globally.

Of course they turn their heads - it's much easier that way to enjoy all the
money they got for acting like this.

------
acd
I have one of these simpler feature phones and use it as my primary phone
device. It started as an experiment when my phone screen broke as a backup
device and to get rid of smart phone addiction. Positive cutting down wasting
time in phone apps. The phone forces me to call people more often as it is
tedious to text on its interface which is a good thing. There is very few apps
so time trap like that can be avoided.

It has quite good battery time days to weeks. The phone is very sturdy.

Drawbacks, cannot purchase train tickets online, cannot use online bank.

Drawback camera.

One needs to use the brain to navigate so one forces to know the way how to
navigate. Its a bit hard if you get stuck in the middle of nowhere but then
the phone has a navigation map app.

Smartphone zero.

~~~
cheeze
> The phone forces me to call people more often as it is tedious to text on
> its interface which is a good thing

Most folks I know don't really use calling anymore. If one of my friends
called me, I'd probably pick up because I assumed it was an emergency. If they
just called to talk, I'd tell them to text me.

YMMV here but younger crowds seem to shun voice calling IMO.

~~~
em-bee
i don't know if i still count with the younger crowd but i guess i was an
early adopter of internet tech.

calling you on the phone means that my time is more important than yours and
you had better be available when i want you to.

that said, pure social calls are fine, they are less disruptive than needing
to discuss something that is not urgent or even important. if it's anything i
need to remember, or think about before responding then i really prefer
messages.

~~~
iamnotacrook
"i don't know if i still count with the younger crowd but i guess i was an
early adopter of internet tech"

The internet is 50 years old this year. I'm sorry to break this to you but you
are no longer young.

~~~
cr0sh
50 years if you go back to the beginning - but most people didn't get on the
internet until the early 1990s, when it was "opened up" to commercial
interests (which led to the meme of "Al Gore invented the internet").

Prior to that, the only way to get access to the internet (D/ARPANET) was
(generally) thru educational or military connections; one of the few
exceptions to this (I don't understand exactly how it worked) was being a
member of The Well, which allowed some kind of internet access (not sure if it
was limited to email, or if other access was allowed?).

The number of people on the internet prior to (roughly) 1992 were mostly
confined to the United States, and was a relatively small percentage of the
total population of the country, simply because of the exclusivity of the
connections; it was open to commercial traffic. Prior to 1992, most people who
had experienced some from of "online connection" did so via either multiuser
private commercial networks (two of the largest in the USA were Tymnet and
Telenet), or large "walled garden" shared systems like AOL. Then of course
there were the myriad local and long-distance Bulletin Board Systems (BBS) -
which toward the "end" (I put that in quotes because they never really fully
"died") in the early-1990s started to standardize on form of "email" called
FidoNet (IIRC, even the original developer thought of it as a hot mess of code
that barely worked).

All of this is to say that for most people (but not all - certainly more than
a few people here on HN likely had access to the internet prior to 1992) the
internet is only about 30 years old.

Though you remain correct in the assessment that "we are no longer
young"...sigh.

~~~
iamnotacrook
"50 years if you go back to the beginning - but most people didn't get on the
internet until the early 1990s"

Yes but I'm specifically talking about someone who's an "early adopter"!

~~~
whenchamenia
Early adopter was pretty much anyone before y2k.

------
whizzkid
Interesting article but title is pretty bad. Amount of users have risen for
these kind of phones not because they are the new iPhones, but because pay-gap
between countries have stood same while technology reached all over the world.
Everyone wants to chat and send pictures of loved ones to each other, but
while someone is earning 4-5 thousand dollars a month, another one is earning
80 dollars a month. Companies know this and try to make the best possible
device possible for the situation.

------
taneq
In what sense are these not smartphones? They run a flavour of Linux, they
have internet access, they're programmable and have an app store. They sound
just as capable as flagship phones from a few years ago, except that they're
not primarily touchscreen based and they don't use the Apple App Store or
Google Play Store.

~~~
nabla9
They are feature phones.

>Feature phone is a term typically used to describe a class of mobile phones
that are still technically otherwise smartphones, besides their lack of highly
advanced hardware and capabilities of modern ones. Feature phones tend to use
an embedded operating system or real-time operating system with graphical user
interface which are small and simple, unlike large and complex general-purpose
mobile operating systems like Android or iOS, they typically provide voice
calling and text messaging functionality in addition to basic multimedia and
Internet capabilities and other services offered by the user's wireless
service provider.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feature_phone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feature_phone)

~~~
taneq
OK, so from that, they _are_ smartphones, just low-end ones which probably
isn't software-compatible with higher end smartphones.

~~~
iainmerrick
Yes, unless I completely misrecall, these were called “smartphones” before the
iPhone launched.

After that, the iPhone was clearly something qualitatively different, so
people (or rather, journalists, phone stores and the like) started calling the
old style “feature phones”.

I’d say it’s now misleading and even incorrect to call something a
“smartphone” if it doesn’t have a full-size touchscreen.

~~~
taneq
As I understood it, the key difference was being able to add functionality by
installing third-party applications. That's what made a smartphone "smart", as
opposed to a featurephone which was stuck with only the "features" implemented
by the manufacturer.

If you're looking for a word to describe phones whose interface consists of a
touchscreen with icons and gestures, I'd suggest "phablet".

~~~
Armisael16
Phablet means something distinctly different; it’s a phone that’s so large
that it’s verging in being a tablet. Usually thing means a between 5” and 6”
screen.

By your definition the original iPhone (3.5” screen) was a phablet.

~~~
km3k
Yes, but the size people see as phablet has changed over time. It's basically
a size larger than the average person is comfortable with as a phone. Yes, it
used to be 5-6", but now it is more in the 6-7.5" range, largely due to the
shrinking of bezels allowing larger screens in the same physical size phone.

------
JD557
If you are interested in this new feature phones running KaiOS, I recommend
taking a look at the BananaHackers website[1] and twitter account[2].

Some of those devices (such as the Jio phone shown in the article) can be
jailbroken to support a lot more applications.

[1]:
[https://sites.google.com/view/bananahackers/home](https://sites.google.com/view/bananahackers/home)
[2]: [https://twitter.com/BananaHackers](https://twitter.com/BananaHackers)

------
rv-de
If I'd have to I could live without all apps except for two:

\- Google Authenticator

\- Password Safe

(- E-Mail would be nice, though)

Actually I find appeal in only being able to check messages (except for urgent
messages via SMS) when I'm home at my computer. But I need a device for the
2nd factor and an auxiliary organizer for passwords.

~~~
icebraining
[http://motp.sourceforge.net/](http://motp.sourceforge.net/) runs freakin'
everywhere, even on J2ME phones ^^

------
TheSpiceIsLife
Interesting. I wonder how long it’ll be before these people, or maybe between
a cohabiting family, can afford the cheapest smartphones.

I think the idea is supposed to be that internet access, even of such a
limited form, I supposed to inspire at least some people to upgrade, up-skill,
want more for themselves and their families, etc.

~~~
em-bee
it may or it may not, in fact i may be motivated to downgrade. i really don't
want my phone to be that all-encompassing device that takes over my life. the
more limited its use the better. for me that is messaging and voice calls and
maybe video calls. and playing audio. web on the phone is for looking up
things on the go. likewise apps for work that needs to be done while outside
(todo lists, maps)

i don't want to upgrade, and i expect that someone who does want that will be
better served with a cheap laptop alongside that phone than a more expensive
phone.

of course that makes me one of the nay-sayers who is rejecting the smartphone
revolution. but i can dream, can't i?

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
I'd happily downgrade if one of these smart-feature-phones had a good camera
and better typing method. I guess I could just delete all the apps off my
phone, or develop better habits.

But I meant to frame my previous comment in the context of the article, where
it's talking about those who can't yet afford a smartphone but probably want
one.

~~~
em-bee
good point. but my comment can be extended to that group. do they really want
a more expensive phone or do they want their problems solved?

no matter which though, speculating from the sidelines isn't going to help.

unfortunately i fear that a big drive to more expensive phones is because they
are being used as a status symbol.

but that too is a sideline comment and is not nice to the people we talk about

------
nashashmi
Ever since I came across Paul Graham's blog article a couple days ago on PR
stories and how ubiquitous they are, I have been on the lookout for them. And
this is a PR funded/fed story.

Sorry. Article on KaiOS came up a few months back. This is a rewrite.

~~~
rchaud
So, an article in the WSJ about a $25 phone sold only in India with a feature
set rivalling that of a 2005 BlackBerry is a PR push for...what, exactly?

~~~
Scoundreller
You don't see the problem here?

This guy sells mangoes on the street and can afford a data plan that lets him
stream music all day and watch movies on his cell phone in the evening.

This is unthinkable in Canada (except for those socialists in Sask.).

------
firefoxd
There is no difference in smartness here. Or at least, now we get to see that
marketers meant internet when they said "smart".

------
kome
If only web dev would stop putting megabytes and megabytes of JS crap in their
website, and use plain HTML and server-side script (just when needed), they
would be able to capture those new users...

~~~
jmkni
Or actually learn how to develop natively for the OS these feature phones use.
Does the JioPhone run the same OS and use the same app store as the equivalent
Nokia feature phone, for example?

~~~
em-bee
you expect us web developers to cater to every different device out there? i
am sorry, but the whole promise of the web is that i don't have to do that.
it's impossible to test for all the different devices out there, so either the
devices follow a common standard where the only difference for web is screen
size and resolution, or they can expect to be ignored.

~~~
acqq
The current web developers have a huge problem not only with having the pages
downloading many megabytes for the article of a few kilobytes, but also with
the required memory footprint. Specifically, a friend of mine tried to use
iPad 2 (which had 500 MB RAM) as long as possible and gave up already around,
if I remember, late 2014). I didn't understand why he complains that the
surfing on it was impossible, but I've tried to do the same with the 1 GB
iPad, and surely enough, a year or two later, there were already the apps and
the "news" web pages for which even 1 GB of RAM (!) was practically not
enough.

I of course know it's not about the developers only but the practices of the
markets, delivering hundreds of ad trackers on a single page etc. But it's
still for me on some level hard to accept the fact that a single web page
delivering a few kilobytes of some news needs more than 1 GB of RAM.

~~~
em-bee
good point. i was almost going to add cpu and memory capabilities into the
differences a web developer should be able to handle, but unfortunately those
are exactly among the issues that are hard if not impossible to test for. i
can easily emulate a different screensize and maybe resolution. but i can't
emulate the different cpu and ram of any other device.

~~~
acqq
> i can't emulate the different cpu and ram of any other device.

Of course you _can_ : run a virtual machine, give it e.g. 500 MB, don't allow
the guest OS to have the swap file, install there your favorite browsers and
try (and weep).

It will be hard and unpleasant for you, but that's exactly what the users with
less money are faced with. To ease your initial pain (or make the installation
of the browsers or the OS even possible?), you can first install the OS and
the browsers with more virtual RAM on the guest and only then reduce it.

And of course, you'd have to clear the browser cache every time before you try
your pages. Also ideally, limit the network speed and increase the request
latency!

Also to get the "realistic" CPU speed, run that all on some less powered CPU,
like: [https://www.amazon.com/Intel-Compute-Computer-Processor-
BOXS...](https://www.amazon.com/Intel-Compute-Computer-Processor-
BOXSTK1AW32SC/dp/B01AZC4NHS) with Atom processor.

The question is more the will and not the technical aspect. And explaining all
that to the managers, if you are in a company which doesn't have awareness of
the potential users around the world.

To give you an idea: I can read still HN site on the underpowered devices, but
there are enough sites today which just don't load or crash (i.e. I can't read
the linked articles). It's that bad.

~~~
em-bee
no you can't.

that virtual machine does not compare at all to the actual performance on a
phone where the app runs besides other apps and native services, deals with
different latencies for device access, internet speed etc.

yes, i can test my app that way, and it will probably good to do so to catch
the most blatant performance issues. but then i could just test on my own
phone for the same effect. in no way though i am going to be able to test
across a multitude of devices, all of which have different performance
characteristics.

~~~
acqq
> but then i could just test on my own phone for the same effect

If I may guess, your phone has 2 GB RAM minimum and at least 4 core CPU and
therefore is much stronger than what I talk about? Like I’ve said, using Apple
iPad 2 (which probably are easy to find and have 500 MB RAM) is a good start.
You can’t dismiss those as being not polished enough. They are just specced
less powerful than the current first world phones.

My VM suggestion is that the tests can be done on every notebook. If your page
fails on that setup it’s obviously not suited for the less powered devices.

------
dmix
> So the company developed the JioPhone, teaming up with Hong Kong-based KaiOS
> Technologies Inc., which makes the most widely used operating system
> powering smart feature phones globally.

It's cool that a (potentially) billion more computers will be running linux:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KaiOS](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KaiOS)

~~~
carlob
The version of KaiOS that shipped with HMD new Nokia-branded phones was such a
piece of garbage compared to s40/s60 I had to return mine. I hope this one is
better.

------
hamilyon2
I don't understand what this article is about. I owned feature phones, most
inexpensive ones. They had internet access, web browser, maps application,
chat clients. I used all of that in 2004 and it was regular feature phone
maybe at $100. I am sure I can buy one now and it has gotten somewhat cheaper,
but. How is it news 15 years later?

~~~
tiniuclx
This article talks about a developing market made of first-time internet users
that are buying cheap feature phones. It is interesting because this is taking
place in New Delhi and because this cycle is exactly what the west went
through in 2004.

------
nerdponx
Can we please get these here in the US too?

------
NoGravitas
I would absolutely use a Nokia 8110 4G as my main phone except for just a few
missing apps. Mainly Signal; I'd also want an XMPP client that supports OMEMO,
though Converse.js might work. I love the retro styling of it, especially that
it looks just like the phones in The Matrix.

------
Zigurd
A lot of them will be Android, or based on Android. Android was created with
the ability to accommodate non-touch form factors and d-pad navigation in the
UI. Applications that aspire to portability to non-touch use cases in cars and
TVs still need to use widgets that correctly implement
up/down/left/right/select navigation, displaying a navigation highlight color.

These are, nevertheless, smartphones. Just smartphones that squeeze out every
drop of cost. They will have access to most Android apps, and a full featured
browser.

There may be a market niche for phones without a color screen, no installable
apps, etc. It will be challenging to eke out significantly lower costs than
lo-end hardware suitable for lo-end Android configurations, due to volume
efficiency.

------
nerdponx
The other day I had spent some time reading up on the whole GPL v2/3 debate
and Tivoization.

Would it have been impossible to use Linux on these phones under GPL v3? I
assume that it would be very difficult to provide "installation information"
required by the license.

------
Spearchucker
Bought the Nokia banana phone with KaiOS earlier this year. Sold it on after
discovering that it came pre-infested with both Google and Facebook. Sailfish
OS still seems the best choice. Alternatives are my old Nokia N900 or my more
recent Microsoft Lumia 980XL.

------
skizm
As an American, where can I order these phones, and are they easy to develop
on? Seems like a good opportunity. Whatsapp turned into a $19 billion dollar
business by targeting this demographic (their app worked on pretty much any
phone you could find).

------
jillesvangurp
Even feature phones ten years ago were pretty capable and MS and Nokia had
plenty of smart phones priced at feature phone prices back in the day. I used
to work in Nokia when they were still the biggest phone manufacturer.

A cheap phone does not have to be lacking in features. Mostly the reason we
don't see them a lot in the west is because manufacturers prefer to sell you a
more expensive phone. It's that simple. Operators and manufacturers conspire
to keep these thing out of the market because they want to sell more expensive
products.

What's happening elsewhere is that the competition elsewhere is heating up for
the rest of the world. For the last decade that market was dominated by
landfill Android and a multitude of cheap rip offs and legacy products. E.g.
Nokia kept milking S30 well into this decade and there might still be a few
variants that they are selling. The original version of that dates back to the
early nineties.

Before they sold their phone business, Nokia had big plans for bringing linux
to feature phones and they had a platform in advanced stages of development
before they layed off the entire unit. They actually had two different linux
platforms, meego for smartphones, which did launch publically before killing
it off and Meltemi (internal code name) which they never launched. Meltemi was
intended for cheap phones (replacing the S40 platform, not Symbian in case you
confused that with S60) and based on QT/QML and linux running on cheap
hardware. S40 was actually a quite capable system and effectively the money
maker for Nokia.

The Meltemi strategy is basically what is happening now almost a decade later
in the form of SailOS, KaiOS and other linux based platform trying to fill the
gap left by a mostly indifferent Google and Apple when it comes to low end
platforrms. Apple simply does not sell to poor people and Google isn't much
better. They like talking about it but it's an after thought in their platform
strategy.

Samsung tried pushing Bada (basically an evolved Meego) for a while. LG had
WebOS and there have been a few more. The problem with all of these (and
Nokia) is that electronics manufacturers are not great at developing software.
Apple is a lone exception and arguably they are a software developer that
happens to produce hardware instead.

------
kazinator
> _The gadgets look like the inexpensive Nokia Corp. phones that were big
> about two decades ago. But these hybrid phones, fueled by inexpensive mobile
> data, provide some basic apps and internet access in addition to calling and
> texting._

In other words, they are maybe like _Japanese_ phones two decades ago.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-mode#History](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-mode#History)

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dreen
So does anyone know an actually good feature phone I could buy in UK right
now?

4G capability and maps are a plus but neither essential.

~~~
masklinn
Not sure how it panned out but the Nokia 8110 4G looked pretty interesting
when it was announced: limited intrinsic capabilites (and long battery life)
but IIRC able to act as a hotspot / WiFi AP bridging 4G to your non-cellular
tablet or laptop.

~~~
dreen
wow it actually looks pretty cool (dont like the curve but its fine)

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dillonmckay
There are probably so many replacement parts that exist for iPhone 4,5, and SE
series, Apple could easily create an updated low-cost iOS hardware offering,
but that won’t be until they fully embrace being a services company.

Their lower-end offerings would be ‘lowcost’ thin-clients.

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8bitsrule
"There is a trade-off for the low price. The devices typically have slower and
less powerful components, only basic cameras and their screens are usually
just a few inches in size...."

IMHO, that's a feature, not a bug ... if all you really want is _a phone_.

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cryptozeus
“Smart feature phones, as they are known, are one of the mobile-phone
industry’s fastest-growing and least-known segments, providing a simple way
for some of the world’s poorest people to enter the internet economy.”
....sure tomato tomato

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Mikeb85
These sound like smartphones. The fact they're not as advanced as higher end
phones doesn't mean they're not smartphones. They seem to have all the
features that the first generation of smartphones had.

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VeninVidiaVicii
I'd really love to buy something like this for my 80 year-old mother in law,
she's absolutely terrified of mobile phones and still uses a landline. Will it
be available in the US?

~~~
rasz
$70 Nokia 8110 4G is same hardware in different package.

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est
I have a VoLTE phone with a dial pad. It works great. However the launcher
seems to be restarting from time to time, because it's Android Go running
under 512MB memory.

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m3nu
If it supports TOTP and QR codes, I'd buy one just for 2FA.

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puranjay
I would genuinely like a smart feature phone. I've been trying to cut down my
phone usage but need Whatsapp just to stay connected to friends and family.

~~~
mrweasel
That's going to be one of the main issues for these types of phones. The
applications people really do need vary enormously. I basically just need two
applications, both for work, Google Authenticator (or similar) and a
specialised app from our telco that manage our on-call number. The rest I can
do without.

Perhaps it's worth remembering that these "smart feature phones" aren't meant
for people who just doesn't want a smart phone. They are meant for people who
can't afford a real smart phone, so the feature set will creep towards being a
full featured smart phone.

For those of us who genuinely do not want smartphone, there's currently not
much on offer, unless we truly do not need a single smart phone feature.

I have a small set of features I'd like to see in a phone:

* Hotspot support, so both WiFi and 4G

* A TOTP application

* BlueTooth, for wireless headset and writing SMSs and managing the contacts from an application on my computer

Other than that the screen can be a black and white LCD for all I care.

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xutopia
I would like to have an old Nokia style phone that provides a voice activated
GPS. No Facebook, no Messenger, no email.

~~~
woodrowbarlow
i hear this often. if you want a stripped-down phone and GPS, why not purchase
a standalone GPS? do you use the GPS often outside of your car? honest
questions.

~~~
plants
Good handheld GPS units are expensive. Plus, you look eccentric - to say the
least - carrying a handheld GPS unit in addition to your phone.

~~~
cr0sh
Have you considered building your own phone?

Sure it won't be very stylish - nor will it be slim - but all the parts are
out there with more than enough example code to hack together exactly the
phone you want.

I'm seriously considering going this route for my next phone, since 4G modules
recently became more widely available and much lower in price. But even 3G
would suffice for my needs. I'm just wanting a "smart phone" which I have
complete control over - or close to it.

I understand not everyone has the option or skills to build such a phone, but
if you do (or are interested) - google around for DIY phones based on the
Raspberry Pi (especially the Zero W), or the Arduino (using a variety of
processors, though the original Arduino Phone was made with an ATMega328P
iirc).

For your use-case, either one of the more powerful "standard" cores could be
used (ATMega2560, ATMega644, SAM3X8E) - or maybe something based off the ESP
line (ESP-12 or 32 would be my choice). A small 3G GSM module, plus a GPS and
maybe an IMU, some kind of keypad, and a small OLED screen or something - keep
everything at a 3.7 volt level and run it off a LiPo cell(s). With a bit of
luck, you could probably fit everything into something about the size of an
Altoids tin.

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jbverschoor
Well good luck running all these non-native apps on them

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godelmachine
Leading the fray is India's own Reliance JioPhone

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rerpha
Kinda want one just so i can beat my phone addiction.

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asaddhamani
The article is paywalled

~~~
mrweasel
This is basically the same article: [https://www.msn.com/en-
us/money/companies/the-hottest-phones...](https://www.msn.com/en-
us/money/companies/the-hottest-phones-for-the-next-billion-users-arent-
smartphones/ar-AAEJVvO)

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samstave
When i first interviewed with danger, they had the hip-top.

I want one device that can do the following and only the following:

* gps

* browser

* text/mms

* camera

Nothing else.

Make it connect via data to a family console. It logs everything. Give these
to all your family/kids and have them be a connected cluster.

It all logs back to a server on the home network. Backs up your shit auto.

Oh one other feature:

* walkie talkie only amongst the family group.

All data sims.... no cell.

Cell would be sip routed through the home router only.

