
Why don't developers dress better? - kellysutton
http://kellysutton.tumblr.com/post/10768909848/why-dont-developers-dress-better
======
nhashem
I hate ties and collared shirts in general. Any wedding or other formal event
where I have to wear a suit, I'm constantly tugging at my neck and ripping off
my tie within 5 seconds of getting back in my car to drive home after the
event. I have no idea why Steve Jobs wore his ubiquitous turtleneck, but I'd
like to think the fact that it was a lot more comfortable than a shirt and tie
was one of the reasons.

Also if I'm at any sort of business or social event and someone is comes up to
me and says something like: "Hey bro, I've been sitting on this great idea for
a startup that I came with when I got my MBA at Oswego College, and I need a
cofounder. Here, sign this NDA and I can tell you about it. Okay fine, don't
sign the NDA, bro. It's called 'Fratastic.com,' it's like frat-oriented humor
videos. It's gonna totally be the next youtube, it's ridiculous how much money
it's gonna make, bro. I have the domain name and everything, I just need
someone to actually do all the coding and I'll do the marketing, bro. How does
4% equity sound to you?"

... well, that person is almost always wearing a shirt, coat, and tie.

So why would I want to dress up beyond a t-shirt and jeans? It makes me
uncomfortable, it has nothing to do with my production, technical or
otherwise, and I'm less likely to be associated with the expensively educated
clueless douchebag I described above.

Also, I know a lot of hackers who do go to the gym or otherwise keep active
and look just fine in a t-shirt.

~~~
kellysutton
Chances are if your tie/dress shirt makes you feel uncomfortable, you bought
the wrong size. Comfortable dress shirts and ties do exist.

~~~
CWuestefeld
_Comfortable dress shirts and ties do exist._

I disagree, at least for off-the-rack clothes. I have a 17.5" neck, and
looking at me you wouldn't think I'm a no-neck football player. When I get a
_fitted_ shirt that is correct for my neck, it means that I've got to fold in
at least 4" extra fabric around my waist. It seems that all clothes here in
America assumes that some people are obese, and the rest of the population is
merely fat.

I think the only way to get a dress shirt that's anywhere near the right size
is to have it tailor-made.

~~~
omgsean
Look for slim fit shirts. I've heard good things about Brooks Brothers Extra
Slim Fit shirts. H&M also makes good slim fitting shirts if you're on a
budget. In American clothing lingo "extra slim fit" just means "not
overweight."

Alternately, have your shirts taken in by a tailor. Most will do it for about
$8-12, hardly an imposition for a developer who probably makes 2-3 times that
per hour.

~~~
CWuestefeld
_I've heard good things about Brooks Brothers Extra Slim Fit shirts._

Holy mackerel! They're $79.50 each!

~~~
omgsean
I'm told they last. With some brands you pay for the label, but with others
you're paying for quality. For example, if you buy a pair of $300 shoes from
Allen Edmonds and treat them properly you can expect to get 20 years out of
them. The concept of disposable clothes is fairly new, and there are still a
handful of companies who want to sell you a shirt that lasts.

------
jeffreymcmanus
"my talent supersedes my necessity to follow the guidelines of society" is a
fairly mindless observation.

90% of the "guidelines of society" is cargo cult thinking. The best developers
are wired to avoid this kind of thinking. With respect to clothing, they
optimize for comfort and individuality rather than looks. There's no big
political statement going on here (and I'd argue that dressing casually is a
practical choice rather than a sign that one is misinformed, sloppy or lazy).

I'm writing code this morning in my pajamas. This evening I'll go out to a
mixer and I'll throw on a nice sport coat. Clothes are tools, and you need the
right tools for the job. This is why electricians and plumbers don't wear
neckties.

------
steverb
There is a signalling mechanism involved in dressing like a slob, every bit as
loud as the signal you are trying to send out by dressing well.

In some contexts, putting on "whatever" sends the signal that I'm a slob, in
other contexts it sends the signal that I have better / more important things
to think about. In some contexts, dressing well sends out the signal that you
are conscientious and trust-worthy, in other contexts it sends the signal that
you are a vapid tool.

Your job is to tailor your message for the audience you are trying to reach.

~~~
jseliger
Also, I noticed this:

 _(For guys) Girls like guys in ties. Show me a young woman who doesn’t like a
well-dress guy and I will show you a liar. This doesn’t mean putting on a suit
every time you step out of your apartment, but just putting on clothes that
make you look good._

For long-term relationships, men are just as picky as women. Many men probably
don't want to date the kind of woman who will be impressed by wearing a long
string of cloth that symbolically represents the cutting off of bloodflow to
the brain. Rather, men want to signal to women that they're looking for
someone who will look beyond the surface appearance of fancy clothes and
towards something more substantial.

Show me a young woman who finds the wearing of a tie the marginal tipping
point at which she'll sleep with a guy in a tie and I'll show you a young
woman who probably makes me think, "I can do better over the long term." And,
even over the short term, I'm not convinced the tie is all that important.

~~~
orangecat
Girls like guys who convey high social status. Depending on the context, that
may be the guy in a suit, or it may be the guy who commands enough respect to
dress however he wants. Consider musicians.

~~~
mc32
It's fascinating to see musicians who can afford (socially) to dress neatly in
spite of the assumption they'd dress in ripped jeans and T-shirt.

------
martingordon
From Tom Ford's five lessons:

> You should put on the best version of yourself when you go out in the world
> because that is a show of respect to the other people around you.

I try to dress well (note that there is a difference between dressing well and
dressing formally) because I want to show respect to those around me. I find
poorly dressed people almost as off-putting as catching a scent of someone who
didn't put deodorant on seeing too much of someone who doesn't have the
decency to wear a belt. Again, it's not about level of formality: someone
wearing an ill-fitting suit isn't dressed as well as someone wearing properly
fitting jeans and a polo.

Developers value elegant code as an indication of programming skill, so why
not value elegant dress as an indication of interpersonal skills? (The answer
is that a lot of developers don't value interpersonal skills at all).

"Why This Matters" from Jesse at Put This On is a good read:
<http://putthison.com/post/665640307/why-this-matters>

~~~
tptacek
I find this sentiment mildly offensive, for reasons I'm sure you can predict.
I'm wearing a t-shirt covered in paint stains today and ripped up jeans, and I
do not agree that I am expressing disrespect for you.

I find not agreeing with someone else's sensibilities (in fashion, in art, in
cooking, in coding, or what- have- you) to be passive and innocuous.

I find "taking disrespect" from someone else's choices to be something other
than those things.

(It's the sentiment I'm remarking on, not you; I do not find you to be
offensive.)

~~~
martingordon
You touch on this, but to be explicit we should note that between respect and
disrespect there's indifference. I'm indifferent towards most people. It's
when they cross into the "nuisance" range that I take offense.

Much the same way I would find it disrespectful if you were talking on your
phone too loudly in close quarters or if I overheard you making a racist
comment to your friend, I would take offense if you're clothes showed me too
much of you or if they gave off some sort of smell. A lack of care of how
one's behavior affects those around them is, by definition, disrespectful.

------
shrikant
Relevant snipper from _Cryptonomicon_ :

It is trite to observe that hackers don’t like fancy clothes. Avi has learned
that good clothes can actually be comfortable—the slacks that go with a
business suit, for example, are really much more comfortable than blue jeans.
And he has spent enough time with hackers to obtain the insight that is it not
wearing suits that they object to, so much as getting them on. Which includes
not only the donning process per se but also picking them out, maintaining
them, and worrying whether they are still in style—this last being especially
difficult for men who wear suits once every five years.

------
PStamatiou
I once had lunch with PG after having come back from a VC meeting. I had just
moved to California then and was wearing business attire. PG stopped mid-
sentence to ask me if I had on french cuffs and then told me how investors
like startup guys to be scrappy haha.

And from a PG essay <http://www.paulgraham.com/bubble.html>

"And what would be wrong would be that how one presented oneself counted more
than the quality of one's ideas. That's the problem with formality. Dressing
up is not so much bad in itself. The problem is the receptor it binds to:
dressing up is inevitably a substitute for good ideas. It is no coincidence
that technically inept business types are known as "suits."

~~~
slantyyz
>> It is no coincidence that technically inept business types are known as
"suits."

I thought that term originated back when working people had to wear uniforms,
and that it was more of a class separation thing.

~~~
lucasjung
It's actually a truncation of the term "empty suit." In other words: all
style, no substance; all looks, no accomplishments; all money, no ideas; etc.

------
brm
Dressing better is not necessarily dressing up.

Dress for the situation but wear high quality clothes with the right fit. Just
because its business attire doesn't mean its good clothing or that you're
dressed well. Stand outside the local courthouse at lunch time and watch all
the dumpy ill-fitting suits pour out and you'll see what I mean.

Fit and Quality are far more important than type of clothing.

~~~
kitsune_
Amen, you should dress in a way that makes you and the people you meet feel
comfortable.

One of the worst fashion sins are cheap ill-fitting 99$ suits. Man...

My recommendation guys, buy some nice shoes and a coat.

~~~
kstenerud
Would be nice, if I knew how to tell the difference between "nice" and "ugly".
It all looks the same to me.

I'm still mystified as to how people decide that one piece of clothing "goes"
with another, or looks bad with such-and-such.

~~~
mushtar
Correct me if I'm misinterpreting this, but it sounds like what you are saying
is that you would wear better fitting / more appropriate clothes, if only you
would know how to do so. This is definitely a valid point, but I think it just
shows that there is room for learning!

Embracing new things can be intimidating and downright scary. I remember the
first time I heard about the benefits of lifting weights, I was apprehensive.
I thought I could just call others 'meatheads' and use my advanced degrees in
computer science as a shield. But life does not work like that; we must
continuously improve ourselves, in all aspects of our lives: social, personal,
physical, intellectual. Learning to buy clothes and put together outfits is
just another part of growing up, just like learning how to work out, or how to
apply design patterns to a programming project.

On a more practical note, there are tons of resources on the Internet that can
help you with figuring out what 'nice' clothes are, or how to put together
outfits. Maybe start with this: [http://www.kinowear.com/blog/science-of-
style-introducing-th...](http://www.kinowear.com/blog/science-of-style-
introducing-the-highly-awaited-series) . Or check out reddit's
r/malefashionadvice guides, or maybe go on styleforum.net, or try
putthison.com . Good luck!

~~~
kitsune_
Sorry if I'm late here.

Yes, you should wear clothes that fit. For instance, if your suit is too
large, it will make you look clumsy. Rather than buy a suit for 99 bucks, I'd
rather buy a good quality shirt. Invest in quality, I guess.

Secondly, I think you should wear clothes that make yourself feel comfortable
not just because they fit from a physical point of view. They should be
appropriate to your persona, don't wear something that you are not.

------
protomyth
For myself, I due to an accident I had when a tutor / counsellor (door knob
caught on the neck strap with id and sent me to the floor - lots of blood), I
don't like wearing things around my neck including ties. I'm ok with slacks
but not in the winter here because that's jeans weather and you never know
when you might need to help someone out. Polos are ok and I mostly wear them
instead of t-shirts.

I also grew up in an area where wearing a suit indicated that you were
probably here to take money, land, or rights away. Suits were really the first
sign not to trust that person. This belief is very hard to shake (along with
the thought that anyone calling a noon meeting without providing food is
sending a clear insulting message).

I hated my time in places that required a suit and tie and believe that
culture is corrupting ( <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3015969> ).

------
ryanlchan
It's not about respect. It's about taste.

Ira Glass was once asked about how he became a great radio host [1]. His
response was that he continued to work on his craft even when he knew it was
terrible. Knowing your work is terrible is crucial because it means that you
have taste - you know what needs to be done, and you know what would fulfill
it, even if you don't have the ability to execute it.

Style is about taste. And note, style is not equivalent to 'dressing up'.
Style is knowing what pieces go together to create an aesthetically pleasing
form. Style is knowing your body type, your personality, and your needs and
putting together outfits that compliment and combine those strengths.

When developers get made fun of for not dressing up, it's not because you're
wearing a t-shirt and jeans. It's because you've put no thought into which
t-shirt with what jeans. There's no thought about how the pieces fit together.
There's no taste.

Taste is critical for us because it's what makes or breaks a product. What
makes Apple great? Taste. What let Instagram beat out the plethora of other
photo apps? Taste. What allowed Facebook to take over MySpace? Taste. Taste is
what will give me confidence that when you are on my team, you will do exactly
what is necessary to make us win.

Taste is imperative. Take every chance to show that you have it.

[1] [http://kottke.org/11/04/your-taste-is-why-your-own-work-
disa...](http://kottke.org/11/04/your-taste-is-why-your-own-work-disappoints-
you)

~~~
wooster

       What makes Apple great? Taste. 
    

I worked at Apple for 5 years. Some of the best engineers I know would
routinely show up to work in pajamas. There are just as many, if not more,
"poorly-dressed" people working there as at any other tech company.

The casual clothing trend, at least in Silicon Valley, has roots in 60's-70's
counterculture. The idea that you need to wear a suit in order to do your job,
or to dress like an IBM drone, was _explicitly_ rejected, along with a whole
slew of other ideas which were perceived as needing reexamination. Apple was
one of the companies which best represented that counterculture influence and
its success in shaking up entire industries. To tie them to some notion of
stylish dress equaling success is ludicrous.

~~~
omgsean
You are not responding to what he wrote.

"And note, style is not equivalent to 'dressing up'."

------
erikpukinskis
I think dressing up is fun. I love fashion, but I hate this sentiment:

 _"Unless you’re going to the gym twice per week, you probably won’t look good
in a T-shirt."_

Fuck that. We live in a society that is constantly telling us we look bad,
unless we are skinny, unless we have "good" hair, unless we have clear, light-
colored skin...

Fuck that. People are fucking beautiful. All kinds of people are fucking
beautiful, even if they're wearing a t-shirt.

It's one thing to encourage people to take pride in their clothes. It's
another to call them ugly, and feed into our culture's (literally) deadly
skinny-worshipping obsession.

~~~
alexsb92
I don't think he was trying to "feed into our culture's (literally) deadly
skinny-worshipping obsession." When most people buy t-shirts, they don't buy
well fitted t-shirts. That goes for both fat and really skinny and tall people
(i was part of the skinny and tall). I found that once I started working out a
few times a week, I was actually able to fit in my clothes better. They
wouldn't be so frickin' loose on me anymore. So on the contrary, I think his
argument applies to both fat and skinny, and his observation has dual intent:
be more healthy and fit better in your clothes.

~~~
cschneid
Specifically, well fitting clothes accent your body where you want it
accented. If there's no spot you want accented... well...

------
Maci
A programmer from a very large computer company went to a software conference
and then returned to report to his manager, saying: ``What sort of programmers
work for other companies? They behaved badly and were unconcerned with
appearances. Their hair was long and unkempt and their clothes were wrinkled
and old. They crashed our hospitality suite and they made rude noises during
my presentation.''

The manager said: ``I should have never sent you to the conference. Those
programmers live beyond the physical world. They consider life absurd, an
accidental coincidence. They come and go without knowing limitations. Without
a care, they live only for their programs. Why should they bother with social
conventions?

``They are alive within the Tao.''

2.3 - <http://www.canonical.org/~kragen/tao-of-programming.html>

------
trebor
I'm glad to see someone else musing on something that I have always wondered
about.

You don't have a wear a 3-piece suit to be taken seriously. But when you wear
faded/ratty jeans and a t-shirt it's hard to be taken seriously. Look at the
pictures of the Great Depression: every man on the street waiting in line wore
a suit. Not just business shirts, a _suit_. And these were guys like dock
workers, laborers, &c.

I think it's because of a counter-cultural movement of preferring ratty,
grungy, grimey-looking things. And, lets face it, people do judge you by what
they see.

I don't want to look like a 20-something guy in ratty pants and a t-shirt with
some obscene rockstar; I want to be taken seriously, just like I try to take
others (even a weirdo in a t-shirt) seriously.

~~~
Joeboy
> Look at the pictures of the Great Depression: every man on the street
> waiting in line wore a suit.

I think in the '30s a suit was just what men owned - a durable, practical, all
purpose set of clothing. They'd wear the same to the beach, because that's
what they had. It probably cost them a lot of money, and owning any more
clothes would cost a lot more. It didn't mean the same thing it does now.

------
comice
article is total trollshit, but still:

"You are building the future, so dress like it."

If we're building the future, we'll build one where we can dress how we like.

"Even Zuck has been sporting a suit more and more. He’s the last person that
needs to impress someone based on how he dresses."

Tell that to his shareholders.

"It’s a “my talent supersedes my necessity to follow the guidelines of
society.”"

If people like you are going to speak the way you do on behalf of society,
maybe this society thing isn't for me.

------
nateberkopec
Developer culture is a meritocracy, and if you're putting out good code you
can wear whatever the fuck you want.

My favorite part of the Zucks mythos is the flip-flops. What he wore didn't
matter, because what he and Facebook were doing was so amazing.

Most people just happen to want to wear t-shirts, shorts, and flip-flops.

~~~
slantyyz
>> Developer culture is a meritocracy, and if you're putting out good code you
can wear whatever the fuck you want.

Yeah. My problem with what you're saying is that if you're putting out _great_
code, you can probably wear whatever the f you want.

But if "good" represents average, and you tell any _competent_ employer that
you can wear whatever the f you want, you're just telling him/her that you've
got an attitude problem.

~~~
MarkPNeyer
an employee who insists that he be judged upon his technical abilities and
otherwise left alone has an "attitude problem?"

i'll take someone with that attitude problem over a doormat any day.

~~~
slantyyz
No, I'm saying that there's a scale. If you're a rock star, more is tolerated
of you.

If you're just average, you can't insist on rock star treatment.

~~~
sgk284
There's nothing rockstar about wearing comfortable clothes.

~~~
slantyyz
Comfortable clothes and dressing up are not mutually exclusive. Just because a
nerd might not know how to find comfortable dressier clothes does not make a
suit uncomfortable in itself.

And what I was trying to say is that a rock star (insert profession here) is
more likely to be able to get away with saying "I'm going to wear whatever the
f--- I want to wear" than someone who is just good, especially in a workplace
where wearing jeans and t-shirts is not an accepted norm. And that's usually
the case outside of the tech startup and creative worlds.

------
troymc
What does "dress better" mean, anyway? Once you start unpacking that phrase,
you realize it has very little to do with optimizing functionality. It's not
the same as "eat better" or "sleep better".

Imagine if someone showed up for a swim race in a suit and tie!

------
earlyriser
I read your post but I still don't know why I must care about fashion? I try
to develop my programming skills, I try to educate myself, I try to be a kind
person, I go to gym frequently and I eat well. But the fashion sense is not
something I'm interested, I just want to be comfortable. I checked Put This On
and I didn't like the style.

~~~
equalarrow
Exactly - when I work, it's to get things done, not be part of a fashion show.
You think Jobs, Zuck, or Brin care about being fashionable on the job?? I
respect the OP's opinion, but it felt very high school-ish to me.

That said, I'm not against people dressing however they want. I don't roll
into the office looking like a slob, but I definitely don't obsess about my
outfit for the day.

I obsess more about the thought and effort put into the products I'm
creating..

------
puls
I work at a startup in San Francisco and I'm "that developer who wears a tie
every day".

The traditional adage is that when you dress for success, people take you more
seriously. I'd like to believe that this particular industry is beyond that,
which may or may not be true, but the truth is that when you dress up, you
take _yourself_ more seriously.

The benefit of having everybody at the company know who I am is pretty nice,
too.

~~~
orangecat
Honestly, my instinctive first impression of overdressed developers is that
they're trying to suck up or cover for a lack of ability. That's not fair, and
I try to compensate for it, but it's no more unfair than assuming that
dressing comfortably means you're a slob who doesn't care about your work.

 _but the truth is that when you dress up, you take yourself more seriously_

It just makes me want to get home as soon as possible.

------
wccrawford
"You’ve got nothing to lose, save for some “geek cred.”"

Maybe you underestimate the importance of feeling like you fit in. Being
ostracized from your group is painful and can even lead to being left out of
new information, like the up-and-coming programming languages, etc. It can
lead to people saying, "He's not a team player" and it actually affecting your
job.

Another problem is that you've defined 'better' as you see it, and not as your
peers see it. You think you're better than them, but you aren't really. It's
all an ego trip for you.

~~~
tptacek
I read _Put This On_ (not because I aspire to "dress better",
whichbelievemeanyonewhoknowsme &c &c but because it's well written and
enthusiastic and I'd read a blog about Hummel figurines if it was graceful and
engaging) and I think "ego trip" is the wrong word here.

I think for these "dressing up when their social situation doesn't really
demand it" people, dressing up is a hobby. They'd ( _a_ ) like it people
shared their hobby, because that's more fun, and they'd ( _b_ ) like not to be
judged based on that hobby, which is what happens to developers who show up in
ties.

~~~
wccrawford
Dressing however you want is fine, until you start calling it 'dressing
better' and looking down on those who don't do it with you.

------
arcdrag
Dressing differently is not necessarily dressing worse. Personally, when I see
someone that obviously spent an extra 30-60 minutes getting ready in the
morning to make themselves appear to be a professional, my first impression
isn't "This guy is really professional". Instead, it is "what is this guy
trying to hide?", or "does this guy think appearances are more important than
results?" You really shouldn't assume you're making a good first impression
because you're wearing a tie. It all depends on what the atmosphere of the
workplace is.

------
HeyLaughingBoy
Why is the assumption that a T-shirt and a hoodie "worse dressed?" There are
fricking $500 designer hoodies out there if you want one.

Anyway, the entire article is silly. Grownups know that some people will judge
them based on how they dress. Sometimes we care, sometimes we don't, and so we
dress accordingly. I'm not going to give a presentation to our Senior Business
Team dressed in a Linux User Group t-shirt and ragged jeans, but don't expect
me in a suit at any other time if I don't have to be.

~~~
tomkarlo
Don't conflate "expensively dressed" with "well dressed." Well-dressed does
not have to be expensive. And there is always lots of really bad fashion for
ridiculous prices.

------
BenSS
Dressed UP isn't always the same as dressed NICELY. Programmers like
efficient, but that doesn't mean that it can't look good too.

I've recently taken an interest in upgrading my wardrobe after a very long
time of not caring. Frankly, without the internet I'd be totally lost. I
dislike browse-shopping, and still have limited understanding of what makes
things look better than others. I've found that the worst things are generally
just ill-fitting, and I can't rely on size information (as any woman would
tell you). A medium tshirt from one place might fit me perfectly, and look
like a giant sack from another place. Same for pants, 30x30 jeans can be loose
or too tight depending on the maker, the factory, etc.. Even men's clothing is
getting vanity-sized which is frustrating, and makes me want to go back to
"Whatever, I'd rather be doing something important!"

------
akdetrick
Negatively judging someone for dressing poorly is as bad as judging someone
for dressing well. For that reason, I can't agree completely with either side
of the argument expressed in this thread.

With that said, it would be nice to wear a jacket/tie over jeans without
feeling overdressed and negatively judged as a "suit" among developers. I
agree with the sentiment that developers should wear whatever the fuck they
want, but does that not include dressing well?

------
ktrgardiner
Well I was dressed well for YCNYC. But that's because I'm a girl and I enjoy
dressing well. So I wore a nice dress and a short sleeved jacket.

I felt really confident about what I was wearing until someone told me I
looked like I didn't belong there. Now I'm left wondering if this suit stigma
applies to females.

------
zerostar07
Because a) There are usually negligible amounts of women around

b) I sweat in dress shirts which makes me less productive

c) I stay seated a lot changing posture constantly, which makes shirts look
wrinkled

d) My job does not depend on how someone perceives me physically or socially
so... Occam's razor.

It's not just developers, it happens with many people who work in science. I
know a guy in a biology lab who only dresses in suits, and i 've heard his
supervisor say that he sometimes can't give him real work to do for the fear
of ruining his suit.

------
dlitz
If you're wearing a suit at an event where everyone else is wearing t-shirts
and other casual dress, then _you_ are the one who is dressed inappropriately.
You're communicating that you're either too clueless to understand that, or
you that think you're somehow "above" everyone else. (Or, you're Aaron
Patterson.)

It's just as disrespectful to wear a suit to, say, RailsConf, as it is to wear
a t-shirt and wrecked jeans to your sibling's wedding.

------
sp332
Suits aren't the only way to not look like a slob. Here are a few tips on how
to dress for a "corporate" job without abandoning your sub-culture:
<http://www.waningmoon.com/corpgoth/survival.shtml> and
<http://steampunkworkshop.com/corporate-steampunk-fashion>

------
slantyyz
The "dress for success" mentality is an anachronism, at least in North
America.

Casual workdays used to be an employer granted privilege, but in this day and
age, casual everyday is an entitlement in a lot of companies. The definition
of "workplace casual" has become more lax in the past 20 years too.

Being middle aged myself, I'm not a fan of the shift towards casual dress
every day, but times change, and that's just how it is.

------
jamesRaybould
I'm glad there are other developers out there who have decided that they want
to look smart. My usual work attire is: shirt, jumper, smart trousers, and
smart shoes while the rest of the team tend to turn up in t-shirts, jeans and
trainers.

I was asked recently why I always choose to come to work dressed smartly and
my answer? "Look smart, think smart"

------
malyk
This reeks of a heavy east coast banker/lawyer mindset. That somehow you have
to fit in and play by the rules in order to be a good employee. That if you
aren't dressed above business casual you aren't capable or worthwhile enough
to be considered. I can't tell you how happy I am to be out of that world.

Now, that being said, if you expect to go into a business meeting with a
government or enterprise client you had better not roll into the meeting in
flip flops and a t-shirt if you expect to win their business. But that is a
far cry from having to dress up to some old fashioned standard every day.

Basically, there are two worlds when it comes to business. There's the old,
entrenched, formalized business world and the new, scrappy, meritocratic
startup world and you need to know how to float between them as necessary to
be successful.

------
symptic
Style is a celebration of the self. It's another language to learn and master.

Dismissing it as nonfunctional or damaging to your well being is the same as
ignoring the utility of a new programming language because your old ones get
the job done or because using traditional languages is "hardcore."

------
jisaacstone
Heh, I think the objection to suits and ties is that they are often no better
looking that shorts/t-shirt.

I had no style for the first 20 years of my life, regarding it as simply
vanity and not worthwhile.

Turns out it can be fun to develop your own style. It is a lot more than
'wearing a tie three times a week'. It means moving beyond Dr. Who tees and
thinking about colors and lines; and looking in a mirror once in a while.

It doesn't take too much time or money, and is great when you get complements
from strangers.

It is correct that fit is important. I would say the most important. Get rid
of the too-large t-shirts and too-short pants.

And never ever buy an uncomfortable dress shirt.

------
ryandvm
I can't speak for other people, but I'm a developer and I put very little
effort into my wardrobe. This doesn't derive from a conscious decision as much
as it is that I simply hate the concept of "dressing up". There is no
relationship between how good someone is at technical tasks and their affinity
for fine clothing. In actuality, I've only ever observed the opposite.

Ultimately, I'm not a peacock, so I have little interest in human plumage.

------
Stargazer2112
"I’m a developer and I’ve been attempting to dress better for the last few
months."

I´m a developer and I´ve been atempting to code better for the last few
decades. ( Never got me unemployed/bad employed, by the way )

"For a group of people constantly trying for improving development ability,
I’m surprised more aren’t trying to develop their dress."

Maybe they´re to busy with the kernel to mind the shell. I´m glad inteligence
gave some people power to chalenge traditions, prejudices, judgments...

"You are building the future, so dress like it." Suits are the future ? Silly
me, I always thought they´ve been around for a loooong time. Maybe the future
will be more about substance than appearance. Maybe the future will be about
respect for diversity. Maybe some people are just afraid of change. Maybe
having to really conect with somebody else for what he/she IS and not the
uniform he/she wears is too frightening.

I´m not religious but I think Christ said something about the big bosses of
the time looking like tombs: very fancy on the outside, rotten on the inside.
It´s somewhere in the bible.

Ah, last but not least, being comfortable makes my mind really free to go.
Probably releases some neurons to more pleasant/significant/important tasks.

------
oacgnol
Most days, I wear a t-shirt, basketball shorts, and Rainbow sandals to work.
I'm a strong believer in wearing what's appropriate for the job. If I'm
sitting in the office all day just coding, I don't need to be dressed nicely
would rather be in something comfortable. If I'm meeting a client or going to
an important business meeting, I damn well better be dressed well.

------
fredbed
It's ENGINEERING people: Wear what you want, be comfortable, but be sure to do
REALLY good engineering.

Different jobs have different norms. Wear a suit to your job as a software
engineer at Apple or Microsoft or Google and I guarantee you'll get lots of
attention... the WRONG KIND of attention. People will think you're demented.
But even then, if your engineering is good, they'll simply think your a good
engineer with an odd style of dress.

I can't emphasize enough that it's about the ENGINEERING. Working as a dev
isn't making an impression at fashion week. You sit in your office all day
long, and some days you might not even TALK to another person except to say
"excuse me" when you push you way to the coffee pot to refuel.

If your engineering is on point, nobody is going to give a flying fuck how you
dress.

------
stfu
"Girls like guys in ties" Absofuckinglutely. Attracts goldiggers like flies
flocking to a pile of shit.

------
jarin
I usually wear button-up shirts (and sometimes a sport coat) when going out or
meeting with clients, but I am a firm believer that neckties cut off blood
flow to the brain.

Also, slacks are just not comfortable. I much prefer a nice pair of dark,
well-fitting, ironed jeans.

~~~
nathos
Find better slacks.

I don't often wear dress slacks, but when I do they feel _more_ comfortable
than my usual khakis or nice jeans. Hm...maybe I should wear those dress
slacks more often.

Oh yeah, dry clean only.

~~~
schleyfox
Seriously. Good pairs of slacks are about as comfortable as you can get in any
situation. Part of the genius is the variety in materials that go in. You have
everything from lightweight, super breathable pants perfect for the summer
(when jeans and even khakis become miserable in any humidity) to thicker wool
trousers that will feel comfortable even in the middle of a blizzard.

That said, the peak of summer comfort is seersucker, but I won't even don that
often because it does make you look like an anachronistic dandy.

------
mechanical_fish
_Maybe it’s the New York City in me speaking_

Got it in one.

------
doron
hmmm, spend 500$ on the elegant jacket, or buy this new gadgets that just came
out. I cant decide.

Kidding aside (or maybe not, its a dilemma sometimes, first world problems).

As a sysadmin by trade, that actually attends not a small number of social
events, I often dress in a suit. I feel great wearing them and get
complimented often. But i cant imagine myself sitting in my office, in front
of my screens wearing the latest fashion, it just doesn't work, I will feel
overdressed and uncomfortable.

Oh and i love my t-shirts, I go to some lengths to find cool ones, silly and
geeky. I know.

------
mgcross
"Maybe it’s the New York City in me speaking, but the days of T-shirts and
hoodies are over." The days of t-shirts are over? Are the days of pants over?
Were t-shirts in and of themselves ever "in"? I wear unscreened/printed
colored t-shirts every day. I take care of my body and choose t-shirts and
pants that fit well. I have as little respect for a coworker or potential
client that judges my ambition or skill set as inferior because I don't dress
myself off a rack or blog as they do for me.

------
throwawayhi
How often are developers put 'out there' in any sort of public role to _need_
to dress up in the first place?

I think programmers in general find clothing to be arbitrary and stupid, it's
simply not important compared to code or what we're doing.

I'm a lady software dev and pretty much just wear jeans, t-shirts, and
hoodies. Some of the developers at my company wear slacks and a button-up
shirt, some don't. It's personal preference over any sort of nonexistant
obligation to do so.

------
catshirt
this post is just as short sighted as the quote it's arguing with. strange to
see banter about what people are wearing in a place like this. wear whatever
you want.

------
cosgroveb
I see on your site that you say, "recently, I also got rid of all of my
possessions through a project called Cult of Less."

That must not have included all of your nice clothes.

------
trbecker
Sometimes I use shirt and tie to go to work for fun. In a building full of
t-shirt and jeans guys, it's easy to stand out like that. And sometimes I want
to (or need to) stand out. And doesn't matter what I wear, I'm still doing my
job (making stuff). I think looks really don't matter, but it goes both ways.

------
eedeep
I imagine the answer to your question probably has something to do with the
fact that most developers are staring at a screen for the majority of their
waking hours. If you want to dress up in your 3 piece Armarni to impress your
27" LED then good luck to you...

------
johnrob
Maybe I'm just not used to it, but I honestly find it harder to write code
when I'm well dressed. I really don't know why this is the case. Perhaps my
subconscious thinks I'm performing physical labor when I code, and thus being
well dressed causes discomfort.

------
tbeseda
I'm not sure citing Tim Ferriss' work while advocating for developers to
change their habits, helps with the credibility of your argument.

His body of work is infamous for being poorly researched, counter to a quality
that technical people, like software engineers, value.

~~~
kellysutton
While I don't buy into Tim Ferriss whole hog, the effect he's had is
undeniable. I've seen friends get interested in their health and be much
better for it, partially thanks to his book.

------
stouset
Because nice clothes are the epitome of form over function: they aren't
comfortable to wear (loose fit == airflow), they're more expensive than is
reasonable, and "good taste" in dress is mostly arbitrary.

T-shirts and jeans are comfortable, versatile, and inexpensive.

~~~
rfinterference
You think they're cost effective and comfortable, you haven't lived until
you've coded in just a big 'ol burlap sack.

------
gorbachev
This article can only be beaten in its ridiculousness by the corporate ritual
called casual Fridays.

I thank the lord I am no longer employed in a place that feels it's doing its
employees a favor by instituting such policy.

------
charliepark
Totally agree.

What shoes have you found to work? I'm usually in nice jeans and a button-down
shirt (no tie or blazer, most of the time), but haven't found shoes I really
like. Thoughts?

~~~
yesimahuman
I try hard not to buy clothes made from animal products. Any suggestions? I
have some saucony vegan shoes but they fell apart pretty quickly and aren't
very classy.

~~~
spacemanaki
I have a pair of Novacas shoes that are pretty dressy. I haven't worn them
heavily, so I don't know how well they will hold up over the long run, but
they're comfortable. All their stuff is vegan.

<http://www.novacas.com/>

------
jsiarto
In the words of Barney Stinson:

"To score a ten would be just fine, but I’d rather be dressed to the nines.
It’s a truth you can’t refute, nothing suits me like a suit."

Suit up, Men!

------
toblender
Because of the following reason:

<http://toblender.com/engineer-ranking-system/>

------
AbyCodes
I think this is what happens when nerdness/geekiness goes mainstream.

------
tyohn
Seriously just be yourself - what else is there really...

------
njharman
We dress great. We just have different std of "better".

------
cmsj
This post is completely ridiculous.

------
MostAwesomeDude
Kelly, I hope you read this.

There is, historically, a significant divide between hackers and suits. A
classic example is the Jargon File's entry on "suit":
<http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/S/suit.html> . Whether or not you
subscribe to the hacker philosophy, it would be good to understand that many
of the people odious to hackers, such as marketroids and PHBs, wear suits
regularly, and hacker dislike of their clothing is ingrained.

"You’ve got nothing to lose, save for some 'geek cred.'" For some of us, this
amounts to a betrayal of culture. It's not about looking nice -- I own a
tuxedo and wear it when appropriate (opera, weddings, etc.) but I would not
wear a suit to work. I am not a suit. I'm a hacker. I write code. I eat crappy
pseudo-Chinese with all the spice, get 44Oz drinks at the Circle K because
they run out of 64Oz cups, grok more programming languages than spoken
languages, and I am not a suit.

I'm not offended, but I just want to impress on you that this idea is far
older than either of us and, as such, deserves at least some recognition on
par with the idea that hackers should dress in more professional or formal
clothing on a regular basis.

~~~
tptacek
It is probably not a good idea to eat lots of crappy pseudo-Chinese and drink
44oz Circle K drinks just to signal your nerdiness. T-shirts and ripped jeans
aren't slowly killing you.

~~~
MostAwesomeDude
I was going with things which are a part of my life. I don't eat these things
because hackers eat these things, I eat these things because I like them.
Incidentally, lots of hackers eat these things too. :3

I could have mentioned things like my beard, glasses, and hair longer than any
female coworker, but I felt that that might be antagonistic or countering the
point I was trying to make about fashion.

Incidentally, I hate jeans. I wear lots of cargo pants and keep them carefully
patched up, mostly because my mom's a seamstress and I get obsessive-
compulsive about things.

~~~
tptacek
Please stop drinking 44oz sodas from Circle K. They're harming you.

~~~
MostAwesomeDude
It's Gatorade these days; I've been cutting back on my caffeine steadily for
the past few years. I can't quite make the switch to tea like my coworkers. I
don't like tea. :c

~~~
omgsean
Gatorade is just as bad. This is going to come off as judgemental but I'm
saying it out of concern: if you can grok a lot of programming languages you
can DEFINITELY grok nutrition.

