
Manyverse – A social network off the grid - staltz
https://www.manyver.se/
======
ndarilek
Does SSB still make it impossible to share a single identity across multiple
devices? (I.e. I'd like to log into my identity from my laptop but see that
same identity's feed on my phone.)

I want to participate, but periodically I check
[https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/faq/applications/multiple-
devices...](https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/faq/applications/multiple-devices.html)
and it hasn't changed, and for me, having a single device to which the
entirety of my identity is tied is a non-starter. Even so, the tech seems
interesting, and I hope that limitation goes away one day.

~~~
omnimus
Another limitation is the need to keep the whole database on the phone (mine
is few gigs).

Solution ive seen many of the serious users use is raspberry pie running
patchfoo at home and connecting to your rpi.

Added hustle and you are basicaly centralising it for yourself.

~~~
rotexo
Interested in this—are there any tutorials on the subject you can point me to?
Seems like it would be a great use for a pi, and I have one collecting dust at
home. (Edit: spelling)

~~~
omnimus
Well i think you can follow patchfoo instalation from github. I think crypt0x
(user in comment bellow) wrote it. If you will struggle just search/ask on
scuttlebutt. It is actually very nice small community.

------
kickscondor
One of my issues with Secure Scuttlebutt is that it is difficult to
participate unless you already know other people there. I joined and began
messaging other users and commenting on the community hashtags - only to
discover that no one was going to get my messages until they subscribed to me.
This means that I either need to message those users outside of the network -
or I need to run into them irl.

Is this a feature of SSB or a bug? I mean once I'm in the network and well-
entrenched, I could see it being a feature. But how do I even get to that
point? (Oh and does Manyverse address this at all? Sorry I don't have
Android.)

~~~
staltz
This is a good point that I address in a talk (that hasn't yet been published
on YouTube), but to summarize: ideally we want SSB to be a decentralized
invite-only networks, so that someone has to pull you into their social
circles, or you pull in others into yours. It has upsides and downsides, but
we think it more naturally corresponds to relationships outside tech.

Manyverse is the first SSB app that implements DHT invites:
[https://gitlab.com/staltz/ssb-dht-invite](https://gitlab.com/staltz/ssb-dht-
invite) and the plan is to make it easier for anyone to invite anyone else, so
that we rely less on a single "cluster". We want to get to the point where
there are isolated islands of SSB networks.

But the point you seem to be talking about is also discovery, e.g. something
like a "search" feature for friends. We don't have any idea in mind for that,
and we also question whether that's necessary at all, specially as we seek to
bring this app to countries with limited or no internet access.

~~~
kickscondor
Thankyou for taking the time to reply to me - it's very good to hear your
thoughts and I very much respect what you and the other SSB 'builders' are
doing out there. I totally see why you'd want the network to be this way. I
can see that there is a good momentum and common interest alive on the network
and it's a very strange feeling to be on the network, but unable to
participate. In a way, I'm taking advantage of the fact that you're paying
attention here on HN - because I cannot reach you on SSB.

> Manyverse is the first SSB app that implements DHT invites

Ok - this is cool! I can see how SSB/Patchwork/Manyverse could be used to
replace old invite-only forums (which I've enjoyed with 'real life' friends in
the past.)

So, yes, I do think discovery is a huge problem for SSB (and Dat, too) because
one of the blissful (and terrible) things about the Web is that arbitrary
people can find each other. This seems to be an even bigger problem now that
certain networks are massive in scale - so the 'island' approach is one that
excites me. Not sure about 'isolated', though. With Patchwork, I begin to
wonder why I'm able to read things that I can't respond to - and then I
realize that I probably don't want to anyway. I may just not understand the
whole thing tho. :)

------
b2ccb2
To anyone using a degoogled Android phone: A F-Droid release IS planned [1].

[1]
[https://twitter.com/manyver_se/status/1044569401595514880](https://twitter.com/manyver_se/status/1044569401595514880)

~~~
staltz
And in case people want the APK from other means, here in the source:
[https://gitlab.com/staltz/mmmmm-
mobile/tags/v0.18.9-21.beta](https://gitlab.com/staltz/mmmmm-
mobile/tags/v0.18.9-21.beta)

Can also be installed via Dat Installer [https://github.com/staltz/dat-
installer](https://github.com/staltz/dat-installer) (yep that's right, you can
install a decentralized app through a decentralized app)

------
superkuh
This actually sounds like a pretty great idea. Self hosting content is the
only reliable way to prevent the perverse incentives and costs of
centralization. But only having mobile apps for it makes it useless.

~~~
gregknicholson
Then you're in luck! Patchwork is a fairly-mature desktop Scuttlebutt app.

[https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/applications#patchwork](https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/applications#patchwork)

~~~
superkuh
I know I'm moving the goalposts here but do you know of any native
applications instead of javascript web apps packaged with a headless browser?

~~~
fenwick67
All of the actual applications are listed here, there's nothing with winforms
or whatever:

[https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/applications](https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/applications)

The core implementation is written in javascript so it's not surprising it
uses Electron, it's a pragmatic option.

~~~
jpetso
When I looked two years ago, SSB wasn't documented as a protocol or storage
format much, and instead focused squarely on usage from JS code and a million
of micro-dependencies via npm, making it hard to tell data formats from
implementation details.

I haven't checked since, but unless the situation has substantially improved
since, it's no surprise that the JS implementation is the only one out there.

~~~
jpetso
Reply to self - apparently the situation has indeed improved and there are
some proper docs, plus code in Python, Go and C:

[https://ssbc.github.io/scuttlebutt-protocol-
guide/](https://ssbc.github.io/scuttlebutt-protocol-guide/)

------
Grumbledour
I really do like SSB in concept, but I am kinda sad that it seems to fit
mainly for social networks. I would like to see something more
discussion/topic focused than user centric, but of course with the whole peer
to peer and offline aspects.

~~~
gregknicholson
You can use it for chess too! [https://github.com/Happy0/ssb-
chess](https://github.com/Happy0/ssb-chess)

~~~
ChristianBundy
Honestly the chess keeps me coming back. At first I was excited to be playing
chess again, but it's a great way to have a casual chat and get to know each
other a bit better. Can't recommend it enough.

~~~
gregknicholson
I prefer Go to chess, so I'm eagerly awaiting a version of
[https://github.com/maackle/ssb-igo](https://github.com/maackle/ssb-igo) that
I can just install via Flatpak and use.

------
travisluis
Can anybody explain the important differences between this and
Briar/Bramble[1]?

[1]
[https://dymaxion.org/essays/briarvision.html](https://dymaxion.org/essays/briarvision.html)
previously discussed at
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18027949](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18027949)

~~~
gregknicholson
How does Scuttlebutt (and Briar) relate to [Cabal]?

[Cabal]: [https://cabal-club.github.io/](https://cabal-club.github.io/)

There seems to be a large overlap between the SSB and Cabal communities.

~~~
ahdinosaur
hi gregknicholson, i'll try! =^.^=

Scuttlebutt is a social network platform where each uxer has a personal diary
where each page is a signed message that links to the previous page. to
receive updates on someone's diary, you follow the person. on each page,
content is free-form. the most common message type is 'post', but there's a
chat app (similar to Cabal) that uses message type 'scat_message':
[https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/applications#scat](https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/applications#scat).

Cabal is a chat app, built using the Dat protocol
([https://datproject.org/](https://datproject.org/)). Dat has a similar
architecture, except the diaries (sigchains) are centered on content rather
than people. so to receive updates on a diary, you follow the _content_, which
in Cabal is a chat group similar to a Slack group.

~~~
e12e
I looked at the faq, but it's rather non-technical. Is there a
security/privacy faq? My initial reading is that it's a lot like Twitter or
things shouted out in a pub that films and archives everything that goes on? :
no expectation of privacy, no secure private messages, no deniabilty?

Ed: looks like
[https://github.com/ssbc/scuttlebot/blob/master/README.md](https://github.com/ssbc/scuttlebot/blob/master/README.md)
has a bit more meat. Still happy to hear any comments. Especially I assume any
recipient can prove to a third party that someone said something?

~~~
fenwick67
The real meat of the protocol is explained here:

[https://ssbc.github.io/scuttlebutt-protocol-
guide/](https://ssbc.github.io/scuttlebutt-protocol-guide/)

> I assume any recipient can prove to a third party that someone said
> something

All public messages are signed with the author's key, so any third-party can
verify it.

Private messages are different, though. You need one of the recipient /
sender's keys to decrypt that, and so for a third-party to verify it they
would need one of those private keys.

~~~
ChristianBundy
This was true until about 14 hours ago. :)

[https://github.com/ssbc/secure-
scuttlebutt/pull/220](https://github.com/ssbc/secure-scuttlebutt/pull/220)

You can now generate an unbox key for a private message send it to a non-
recipient for them to be able to access the message, which is really cool. No
private key sharing necessary!

~~~
e12e
That _is_ cool. But the point stands that public (to all) and private (to
designated recipients) messages are "on the record" and can forever be proven
to be made by someone that held your private key at the time?

So if I say: "let's fight racism!" and you later decide to collaborate with a
(now) racist government - you could _prove_ (not merely allege) that I should
go to the gulag?

~~~
dmos62
I too find it a bit discouraging that my data would leak away to the whole
network eventually. I'd like to have "an island" (I believe this metaphor was
used in some docs) to myself and those close to me. Or maybe I haven't yet
grasped how SSB works.

~~~
ahdinosaur
hi dmos62, Scuttlebutt is designed to allow users to create social communities
with trust-based boundaries, but there's just a lot of work to do to bring our
implementation up to match our intentions. for example here's a recent step in
that direction: [https://github.com/ssbc/ssb-incoming-
guard](https://github.com/ssbc/ssb-incoming-guard).

------
crypt0x
podcastphile people new to the concept of ssb might find this episode
interesting:
[https://stealthisshow.com/s04e04/](https://stealthisshow.com/s04e04/)

------
camdenlock
“Off the grid”... but only offering an app for the Google person-tracking
platform (Android)...?

~~~
kseistrup
It's also available via the “DAT Installer”.

The DAT link is
dat://520a00daf0a309bef7722b3f3338854e9da667d01e48dc7b83b118d86354d6d3

The DAT Installer is here: [https://github.com/staltz/dat-
installer](https://github.com/staltz/dat-installer)

~~~
chipotle_coyote
So, only offering an app for Android. :)

~~~
newnewpdro
You do realize these things take significant time to develop, right?

~~~
chipotle_coyote
Sure, but the OP was pointing out (albeit somewhat snarkily) that this was
only available for Android. The post I responded to said, more or less, "The
Android version is also available from this other installer!", which may be
good information but isn't really relevant.

(Also, this project _does_ look like it's been going on since mid-2014, so I'm
not entirely convinced the lack of an iOS client is due to a lack of time. A
lack of available/interested iOS developers seems more likely.)

~~~
kseistrup
Perhaps I misunderstood OP, but I thought he was pointing out the irony that
the author is offereing an off-grid and offline-first app through a highly
centralized outlet. I was merely pointing out that the app is also installable
via the DAT installer, which is fully decentralized so that the app is also
available for degoogled phones.

------
eximius
Hm, if the author happens to be on here: I can't seem to email bug reports.

"Unfortunately, your email to GitLab could not be processed. We couldn't find
the project. Please check if there's any typo."

Also, are issues turned off on the repo?

~~~
staltz
Hi! Issues are on:
[https://gitlab.com/staltz/manyverse/issues](https://gitlab.com/staltz/manyverse/issues)
The email bug report got broken when I renamed the app from mmmmm-mobile to
manyverse, I thought GitLab would handle it still. I'll release a new version.
For now you can open issues or tweet to me

------
personjerry
As a normal user, I have seen 0 reasons to switch off of Facebook here that I
care about, and I don't even understand how it works.

~~~
geff82
When you are part of this Community here at HN, you are no normal user, but,
compared to most of the 7 billion other people, member of the tech elite, even
when not in SV. As a member of that group, one should be a bit more open to
new ideas, way of doing things and exploring where the world might move to.
Currently, after years of ignorance, decentralized networks start to become a
thing and now is the time to be one of the early explorers of that scene
(similar to E-Mail in 1978, PC programming in 1982, net surfing in 1994, App
programming in 2008). Sure, the fully surveilled, full commercial networks
like Facebook or Twitter still offer a lot of use. But yet we as „tech
elitists“ should not ignore the growing subcultural trend to decentralization.

~~~
personjerry
Ok, as "a member of the tech elite", I still have no interest in joining this
after reading the features and description, and have little understanding of
what it is exactly (sure it's "decentralized" and "private", but even if I
cared / believed it could deliver on these promises, these points have little
meaning UX wise -- what the heck is it going to look like / use like on my
phone?).

I'm mainly making the point that their landing page has done a pretty bad job
of explaining and selling the product.

------
TACIXAT
I've installed this, if anyone wants a friend, email me an invite thing or I
can email you one. Email in bio.

~~~
staltz
Some people in the community have generous internet servers (pubs) also giving
invites to people, but that can only work up until some point. Here's a way to
easily setup a server yourself on DigitalOcean:
[http://butt.nz/install?url=https://github.com/ahdinosaur/ssb...](http://butt.nz/install?url=https://github.com/ahdinosaur/ssb-
pub)

~~~
TACIXAT
I have a generous email.

~~~
ChristianBundy
[https://github.com/ssbc/scuttlebot/wiki/Pub-
Servers](https://github.com/ssbc/scuttlebot/wiki/Pub-Servers)

------
sne11ius
I like the concept and installed the android app. Unfortunately, I wouldn't
call it a beta version. I would say alpha since it seems to ... lack a lot. I
was even unable to report a bug via the in-app mail link. Got a response that
there is no such project on gitlab ;)

~~~
staltz
Released a new version that fixes that
[https://twitter.com/manyver_se/status/1044634093181448197](https://twitter.com/manyver_se/status/1044634093181448197)

------
ahdinosaur
hi, if anyone wants to start with a public social network (instead of building
one with your existing friends), here's an invite:

many.butt.nz:8008:@o3OcykTU7zdsm+WKoGl74XAoyDI/SWlVbIeyHHinQXQ=.ed25519~Se1dEm/vb/9c/pKs9eqGY7514p0b7KdR5/+myMIKCKo=

welcome to the 'verse! ️️

~~~
ahdinosaur
this invite will no longer work, but unfortunately i can't delete the post.
find me at dinosaur.is, send me an email or a twitter dm if you want an
invite. =^.^=

~~~
balladeer
What that invite will do? Will it let me join a public network or a private?
What does it mean? Is it like an IRC channel or a reddit subreddit (pub/pvt)?
Or it will let me just connect to you and some degree of your connections
(like a network of people knowing each other -- kind of a pub/pvt club)?

I am sorry to ask these (I guess mundane) questions here but I tried the docs
and it isn't really clear. Also patchwork desktop app brought my laptop to a
standstill so couldn't explore much.

~~~
ahdinosaur
hi balladeer, the invite is created by my pub (a peer that has a public ip
address and is always online), when you use the invite:

\- the pub will post a message to follow you \- you will post a message to
follow the pub \- you will post a message advertising the pub on your feed

basically this mean you will become connected to the pub's social graph (by
following the pub) and vise versa the pub will replicate your messages (by the
pub following you).

also to note, in the future we will change the pub invite story: invites are
directed from one user to another user and pubs are only a messenger
(%LMYARKcJ5/HVrkfyGo0oSV4j/whFmpeiJlQnvPw53PE=.sha256), and pubs will become
just another device controlled by a specific user
(%Gwqklkj0b2CBT5tPiz5170NWsPp3xiuLbOImEaG/e+4=.sha256)

happy to answer any questions! also, i know the initial sync is pretty intense
at the moment (joining most public pubs means joining an active community with
years of content!), but once it's done it's done, later you only sync what you
missed since you last sync'd.

~~~
balladeer
Great. Thank you!

Can I choose to sync just the new content since I joined? Or since let's say
June 2017? And can I clear the previous content synced on my device? If
nothing then, let's say, for need for free disk space.

Also, I have installed the Manyverse app on my Android phone (hoping it would
not be as resource intensive as Patchwork) - but shall I have do everything
all over again if I ever to go for a desktop app or any other app on any
device (as it seems from other comments in this post) - every invite being
added again and so on?

(Edit) And Manyverse is another decentralised app that is using ScuttleButt
protocol, right? And the Android app is a way to access "just this app/social
network" on the SSB network - or not on a network really since it's P2P. Did I
get it right?

I have watched the video and it made things a lot clearer and the
heartbreaking story was touching :) But now I think Manyverse might just be a
"pub" on SSB :)

~~~
ahdinosaur
> Can I choose to sync just...

at the moment no, but it's likely we'll move content off-chain
(%QJEpN8LN1t3BrIkUQ3WoOMWRsMArbVUZCpTeBYcuqfw=.sha256) so you would only need
to sync the signature chain metadata, then could choose what content you want
to download or delete.

> But now I think Manyverse might just be a "pub" on SSB

Manyverse is a mobile app on SSB, much like Patchwork is a desktop app. it
uses all the same peer-to-peer network, including the existing pubs (as in
there are no pubs specific to Manyverse).

> shall I have do everything all over again if I ever to go for a desktop app
> or any other app on any device

if you want to use both Manyverse and Patchwork, yes they will be separate
keys each with their own feed, to be merged as the same conceptual identity,
see this comment:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18067100](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18067100).

------
ron0c
But what if your friends are boring?

~~~
jeswin
The default configuration syncs up to 3 connections away (friends of friends
of friends). So you'd be able to find lots of interesting content and
discussions in the extended network. In Patchwork (the most popular client),
just go to the menu item labeled "Extended Network".

Also, you could join as many "pubs" as you like - based on your interests.
You'll start receiving feeds from other people who share the pub, and their
friends as well.

------
fareesh
What are some solutions to posting something that you later regret? Pretty
much nothing is my guess since it's like sending an email and regretting it
later.

Does the sync allow for deletion too?

~~~
ahdinosaur
hi fareesh, as with real-life, you can't take back what you said, you can only
apologize (in a new post). :)

there's talk of moving message content out of the sigchain so you could
"delete" (ask your peers to delete) a post:
%QJEpN8LN1t3BrIkUQ3WoOMWRsMArbVUZCpTeBYcuqfw=.sha256

~~~
balladeer
To be fair to real life there's a reasonable chance of forgetting :)

------
sktrdie
What about illegal content? Say an identity decides to simply post weekly
torrent dumps. Can authorities prevent this?

~~~
fenwick67
It's signed plaintext messages over distributed channels.

An authority could shut down a pub, or stop a feed from propogating if they
really wanted to, over a channel they control. But they can't really stop
every single comms channel.

------
Jahak
the source code of the server is closed?

~~~
ahdinosaur
hi Jahak, the server code for each peer in the social network is here:
[https://github.com/ssbc/scuttlebot/](https://github.com/ssbc/scuttlebot/)

