
Speed Cameras and the City - danso
http://project.wnyc.org/speed-cameras/
======
Animats
It would be a useful project to instrument a few Manhattan intersections with
camera coverage from above, track all the vehicles and pedestrians, see what
happens and what happened before each accident and near-miss.

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jrockway
If anything, this data shows how egregious speeding in NYC is. The cameras can
only issue tickets if you're driving 10mph above the speed limit. Until
recently this was 40mph. Now it's 35.

35 is way too fast for city driving, so even if there are concerns that this
is just a money grab (only for the city; no private companies get a percentage
of the tickets), it's still worth doing.

If all cars were going 25mph at all times, there would be a lot less people
dying in traffic. Cycling would also be a lot more pleasant.

~~~
mytochar
"city driving"

Then we get into the argument of what constitutes city driving and that gets
fun. What's a city. Is a road connecting two roads a city road? What if it has
side-walks or a bike lane? What about the small town that has a bike lane,
too?

We'd have to see a case-by-case basis of the speed limit in a given location
to give an appropriate speed limit for an area.

.. I wrote that, but now I'm thinking that if we had a reasonable, almost
static speed limit for driving inside a city, then that would be one less
thing the driver has to think about while driving in the city, so that would
be good. Some sort of testing would be needed to decide on an appropriate
speed, but I imagine somewhere between 25 and 35 would prove to be a good
speed.

~~~
TeMPOraL
> _We 'd have to see a case-by-case basis of the speed limit in a given
> location to give an appropriate speed limit for an area._

Doesn't matter. Just have _a_ speed limit and make people obey it, and then
let the traffic engineers run simulations and adjust those limits to maximize
flow and minimize accident rates. But when people have a habitual disregard of
speed limits[0], determining the optimal value of those limits is nigh
impossible.

[0] - I don't know what's the driving culture in the US, but in Poland - where
I live - most drivers show total disregard for speed limits and driving rules.
They think they're _the_ smartest, and that no accident can happen to them.

~~~
mytochar
"let the traffic engineers run simulations and adjust those limits to maximize
flow and minimize accident rates"

Wasn't there a discussion about how it's hard to raise a speed limit in an
area? If the safe / max flow speed turns out to be higher than it currently
is, I suspect it would be hard to get it raised. I am in great support of this
idea, though..

I'd also like more aggressive variable speed limits instead of "60 all the
time, between bone-dry land and torrential rain"

~~~
TeMPOraL
I don't recall that discussion, but it would be great if you or someone else
could post a link to it.

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bsder
The fact that they don't want to tell you where the speed cameras are tells me
that this is a kickback scheme.

If it's about public safety, you _WANT_ people to know that the cameras are
there.

~~~
TeMPOraL
As other commenters wrote, you want drivers to _always_ follow the speed
limits. Moreover, I can tell you how things look when drivers know where
cameras are placed. In Poland, we have an actual Android app that will tell
you not only where stationary cameras are but also where the police currently
is monitoring the traffic. It's a hit among drivers, and people use it to look
like law-abiding citizens next to a camera, while not giving a fuck about road
safety and speeding like crazy the moment they're sure they're not being
monitored.

Seriously, the more drivers I know, the more I want linear speed tracking and
ALPRs to be deployed _everywhere_ , on _every single damn road_.

~~~
bsder
> As other commenters wrote, you want drivers to always follow the speed
> limits.

Then you need to set _sane_ limits. A speed limit that 80+% of the people
violate isn't a sane limit.

Or, you need to reengineer the road so that you basically _can 't_ speed.
However, you have to accept that you are going to lose a lot of traffic and,
with that, a lot of business.

Creating a 6 lane wide street and then slapping a 20 mph limit on it _doesn 't
make sense_.

~~~
TeMPOraL
You can't have sane limits because people don't give a damn about them out of
habit, hence you can't really observe the impact of them and adjust
accordingly. At this point I believe drivers need to be forced to obey the law
by any means necessary in order to create room for traffic engineers to do
their job of optimizing limits.

 _And then_ you still need to force drivers to obey, because as far as I know,
most of them are not able to comprehend that they're not the smartest people
around. Just because a limit doesn't make sense to you, desn't mean it's not
right and optimal in the overall context of traffic flow in the city.

EDIT: Another thing. Have you ever seen a driver maintaining safe distance? Me
neither. It's impossible, because even if you try, you quickly get overtaken
by an asshole who knows better. And then we have accidents like the one near
me two days ago, when a girl started braking because there was a cat on the
road, and she got a whole bunch of people behind her to rear-end one
another...

~~~
bsder
Forcing will not work. If there in anything that the old 55mph limits in the
US showed, it's that.

> You can't have sane limits because people don't give a damn about them out
> of habit

Look, there is science behind this--people drive the speed they _feel_ is safe
--they basically don't listen to speed signs. If you want them to drive
slower, you have to engineer the road so that they don't _feel_ safe at 45 but
do at 35.

> Another thing. Have you ever seen a driver maintaining safe distance? Me
> neither.

In San Diego? Never. In Pittsburgh? All the time. Guess which one gets
frequent enough bad weather to clean the idiots that don't leave following
distance off the road?

~~~
TeMPOraL
> _Look, there is science behind this--people drive the speed they feel is
> safe--they basically don 't listen to speed signs. If you want them to drive
> slower, you have to engineer the road so that they don't feel safe at 45 but
> do at 35._

I've heard that idea before somewhere, and I quite like it. Making the
environment _seem_ unsafe on purpose so that people adjust their behaviour.
I'm interested if anyone tried that on larger scale somewhere, and what were
the results.

------
marincounty
I won't get into the efficacy/need for ticket cameras, but I will share
something I have thought about for a long time.

A poor-middle class guy gets a ticket, and it can affect their ability to pay
rent.

A rich guy get's a ticket and he tells his wife over dinner.

How about tying your first ticket(reasonable mistake--like a California stop,
etc.) to income, but only every 5 years. If poor person get's another ticket
in five years all fees go back to normal levels?

There would be upper limits on ticket price, so millionaires wouldn't be
gouged too much. I think they tried this in Switzerland, but the law didn't
have upper limits for the wealthy? Some guy got a $100,000 ticket--which is
crazy!

A $500 ticket can really cause pain for students and the poor? I have thought
about this since I was sixteen?

~~~
NeutronBoy
Some countries (eg. Australia, can't comment on others but I'm sure there's
many), in addition to the monetary fines, have a demerit point scheme. Each
offence gives you a set number of points (eg. 20km/h over might be 3 points,
drink driving I think is 8-10 points, etc), and if you accumulate a certain
number of points over a three year rolling period (24 I think in my state),
then your license is suspended/cancelled. So you might be able to afford the
tickets, but if you do it more than a few times then you're still stuffed.

~~~
cpwright
New York has the same thing. 11 points in 18 motnhs and you lose your license.
Violations go from 2 points to 11. Speeding 1-10 MPH is 3 points, 11-20 4
points, 21-30 6 points, 31-40 8 points, and >40 or 11 points. The full list is
at:

[http://dmv.ny.gov/tickets/about-nys-driver-point-
system](http://dmv.ny.gov/tickets/about-nys-driver-point-system)

Though I expect the speed cameras are not actually giving out points. They
don't for the red light cameras. You need a "real" ticket from a cop to get
points for that.

Also, depending on the part of the state if you hire an attorney, then there
is a good chance you'll get any points reduced. You might even get a parking
violation instead and just pay a fine. In NYC, being able to plead and get a
reduced point sentence is less likely than in other jurisdictions.

~~~
chrisfosterelli
> Though I expect the speed cameras are not actually giving out points. They
> don't for the red light cameras. You need a "real" ticket from a cop to get
> points for that.

Correct! At least where I live, since points are tied to your license and the
cameras can't accurately identify who is actually _driving_, this is the
result.

The ticket is delivered to the owner of the vehicle, but they can't prove it
was you driving the car at that time so there is no point penalty.

------
mytochar
So I find this interesting; and, I'm glad they provided at least this
statistic:

    
    
       Vehicle crashes near cameras declined 3.9%
       Crashes with injuries near cameras declined 13.4%
    

If that's the case, I'm pleased. That's a noticeable decline. I wonder what
else could be done to safely reduce the number of crashes, while still
allowing drivers the freedom to drive.

Another interesting piece:

Referring to 'The Busy Crossing', "This is the kind of location one might
expect for a speed camera. They target busy crossings near some of the city's
most dangerous boulevards. These cameras are more common than the "speed
traps" but they issue far fewer tickets."

I imagine knowing that there is a speed camera near a given light reduces the
amount of people willing to test that. When it comes to traffic lights and
busy crossings, I think this is a good thing; and not having very many tickets
there should by no means be indicative of the systems failing. In fact, I
would argue they might be working. You'd have to do a blind test of some sort
with unmarked cameras (that don't give out tickets either) at other locations;
but ... that's most likely illegal. (IANAL)

And then regarding this:

"Almost half of the city's speed cameras are mobile — mounted on NYPD
vehicles, they watch different spots for a day or two. Officials won't say how
those spots are picked, though school principals and community groups can make
requests. The mobile cameras each issue just a few tickets a day; as a group
they issue only 11.5% of all tickets."

That's to be expected. It's a camera mounted to a police vehicle. People tend
to act more civil on the road and more accurate to the rules when there's a
police officer around.

Personally, I'd love to find out the statistics around red-light cameras, as
well. I imagine they might be even more useful in quelling negative activity
(though they probably won't bring in as much money as speeding cameras)

~~~
np422
Or perhaps it's just the old phrase "Lies, damned lies, and statistics" that
is appropriate once again?

Veritasium explains it better than me. Please watch
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tSqSMOyNFE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tSqSMOyNFE)

~~~
mytochar
That was absolutely brilliant! Thank you for sharing!

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thrownaway2424
Related analysis of this analysis.

[http://www.streetsblog.org/2015/02/25/nyc-speed-cameras-
are-...](http://www.streetsblog.org/2015/02/25/nyc-speed-cameras-are-making-
streets-safer-time-to-stop-holding-back/)

------
superuser2
If you are going for full enforcement of traffic laws,
distraction/intoxication would seem many times more important than speed.

Why do bars have parking lots? Why doesn't first-offense drunk driving destroy
your life like drug possession? Why does it remain socially acceptable to text
and drive? Why do photos clearly taken while driving on the freeway gather
tens of thousands of upvotes on Reddit and not criminal prosecution?

~~~
TeMPOraL
Forgive me for answering your rethorical questions ;).

> _If you are going for full enforcement of traffic laws, distraction
> /intoxication would seem many times more important than speed._

Can't provide a citation right now, but I recall that apparently most
accidents are caused by distraction and/or speeding, often during the day, and
not by drunk-driving.

> _Why do bars have parking lots?_

Because it's apparently not banned, and even if it was, someone would stand to
make money by providing said lot next to a bar.

> _Why doesn 't first-offense drunk driving destroy your life like drug
> possession?_

I don't know, but I very much feel this should be reversed.

> _Why does it remain socially acceptable to text and drive?_

People don't expect to get in an accident + well, no offense, but most of the
drivers I know behave like entitled assholes when it comes to driving-related
things. "Speed limits are stupid, and no accident could ever happen to me.".

> _Why do photos clearly taken while driving on the freeway gather tens of
> thousands of upvotes on Reddit and not criminal prosecution?_

I guess it has to do with the fact that it's hard to take a picture posted on
the Internet and turn it into a lawsuit.

And to clarify - you're right asking those questions. IMO traffic laws should
be enforced much, much more decisively.

~~~
WalterBright
I don't believe we are made safer by crushing anyone who makes a mistake or
has a temporary lapse in judgment. We all make those.

There are better ways to improve safety - we've already come a long way.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Temporary lapses in judgement are fine - what I hate is the attitude of
disregard towards safety and law.

Fortunately, it seems that the whole discussion will soon become moot thanks
to self-driving cars.

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CamperBob2
Sounds like an exercise in ignoring confounding variables.

~~~
djf1
Could you elaborate? Which confounding variables?

~~~
CamperBob2
Everything else that changed over the course of the study period. Speed limits
might have been lowered, enforcement patterns might have been revised, the
congestion charges might have changed, the weather might have been different.
It would be more helpful to see a graph showing historical trends stretching
back at least ten or twelve years, just to give us an idea of the standard
deviation.

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fiatmoney
A kinder, gentler, more bureaucratic form of highway banditry.

