
A 1980s study on juvenile crime in Japan sheds light on American gun culture - curtis
https://qz.com/1225724/a-1980s-study-on-juvenile-crime-in-japan-sheds-light-on-american-gun-culture/
======
Lazare
Interesting fact:

Firearms were present in Japan beginning in the 13th century, but saw little
adoption. In 1543, the Portuguese introduced matchlock firearms, a much more
impressive weapon, and Japan embraced them. They began manufacturing them in
great numbers, researching firearms technology, and fielding armies equipped
with firearms, which they used to great effect. In 1592 a Japanese force
invaded Korea and rapidly captured Seoul, in large part due to the presence of
an estimated 40k gunners in the force. It's estimated Japan may have led the
world during this period in firearm production, and surviving written records
suggest they saw firearms very positively.

...then, they stopped. There's an excellent book about it called "Giving Up
The Gun" ([https://www.amazon.com/Giving-Up-Gun-
Reversion-1543-1879/dp/...](https://www.amazon.com/Giving-Up-Gun-
Reversion-1543-1879/dp/0879237732)) There's no super clear explanation; the
answer mostly seems to be a vague hand-wavy nod towards "cultural reasons".

But, obviously, those cultural reasons didn't seem to apply prior to the Edo
period, when Japan went all-in on firearms, arguably more so than any European
country. Odd.

~~~
yongjik
I'm not a historian, but I think "the period of war" is a nice explanation:

> The Sengoku period (戦国時代 Sengoku Jidai, "Age of Warring States"; c. 1467 –
> c. 1603) is a period in Japanese history marked by social upheaval,
> political intrigue and near-constant military conflict. Japanese historians
> named it after the otherwise unrelated Warring States period in China. It
> was initiated by the Ōnin War, which collapsed the Japanese feudal system
> under the Ashikaga shogunate, and came to an end when the system was re-
> established under the Tokugawa shogunate by Tokugawa Ieyasu.

So, after the period of war ended and the Tokugawa Shogunate was established,
the "Bakufu" clearly did not want millions of unemployed soldiers hanging
around with guns. (I heard even the invasion on Korea was conceived as a means
of keeping soldiers and lesser feudal lords busy, though I'm not sure how
widely it is believed.)

~~~
Lazare
It's a plausible argument I suppose. And Europe never went through a
comparable period of peace and unification (at any rate prior to the present
day), so it sort of makes sense that Europe stuck with its guns and Japan did
not.

And yet it still raises questions. It happened very suddenly as these things
go (over a few years or decades, rather than centuries), and seems to have
been accompanied by a deep, long-lasting cultural shift. Even after Japanese
isolation ended in the mid 19th century, there didn't seem to be any real
reversion (hence, indirectly, the originally linked article). If the
establishment of the Tokugawa Shogunate was enough to make Japan give up the
gun, why was it's collapse not enough to make Japan re-embrace it? If the
answer is "unique Japanese culture", why was it not present at the start of
the Sengoku period? It's not like the Sengoku period was just way more violent
than the 1850-1950 period.

Anyhow, the book I linked (which I last read over 10 years ago, so I'm a bit
fuzzy on some of the details) goes into a lot more detail, digging through
historical records and evaluating most of the obvious theories. I highly
recommend it!

~~~
rangibaby
Japan didn't embrace gun culture but certainly built up its military after
being forced to abandon isolationism by (literal) threats of destruction from
western powers.

~~~
Lazare
Quite right. The question is _why_? If culture is driven by events, it feels
like they should have embraced gun culture given how huge that event was. If
it's not, then when triggered the earlier abandonment?

~~~
boomboomsubban
The abandonment was triggered by the shogunate having a large amount of
control over anyone wealthy enough to own a gun. Afterwards, the military
certainly embraced gun culture, but civilian gun culture largely rises from
colonialism.

------
aaronbrethorst
_The retired cop then noted that even the yakuza don’t like to use guns these
days — because the penalties are too high...One mid-level yakuza boss told me,
“Having a gun now is like having a time bomb. Do you think any sane person
wants to keep one around the house?”_

[https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/01/06/national/media-...](https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/01/06/national/media-
national/even-gangsters-live-in-fear-of-japans-gun-laws/)

~~~
warent
As much as I want to believe this is true, I can't help but question the
accuracy of the japan times reporting on Japan. In my mind, it's like RT
reporting on Russia

~~~
Larrikin
I don't believe the Japan Times is a propaganda arm of the Japanese government
in the same way as RT. They aren't as old an organization as Mainichi Shimbun
for example, but I wouldn't group them with RT or Sputnik. Television news
organizations in the country have to tread lightly, since they have to come
hat in hand to the government when they need to renew their broadcasting
licenses, but I don't believe other news organizations have that kind of power
exercised over them by the national government.

~~~
tempestn
You meant ' _wouldn 't_ group them with RT or Sputnik', right?

~~~
Larrikin
Yes, fixed

------
a_bonobo
I should quote from an older book called 'Confessions of a Yakuza', on the
Yakuza from about 80 years ago, it's just so fitting:

>The real reason why the police set him up, of course, was to improve the
district’s anti-crime record. Sometime after I left jail—around 1938, I
suppose it would have been—I had just the same kind of trouble myself at my
joint in Uguisudani. Told me, in just the same way, to hand in my guns. This
particular detective came straight from the Metropolitan Police Board—the very
top. I expect they’d been tipped off that some yakuza somewhere had got hold
of a few pistols, so they planned to make a clean sweep. But there weren’t any
in my place to begin with, and there was nothing I could do.

>So they told me to produce some even if I had to buy them. It was way out of
line, but if I’d gone on insisting I didn’t have any, I’d have ended up the
same as Kan-chan, so I got a brother to buy me a couple at three hundred and
fifty yen apiece. That was enough to buy a house with in those days, but I
couldn’t afford to think about that.

>I turned them in to the police immediately. “Good work,” they said—and that
was the last I heard about it: no letter of thanks, and no punishment,
either....

~~~
warent
I'm glad there was no punishment, but wow, that's such a crazy and unfair
situation to find yourself in.

------
posix_compliant
“Their reasons for remaining gun-free revolved around some loosely held
concept of honor,” Beck says. “Being able to move your finger on a trigger is
not really a skill that wows anyone.”

I find this mindset is reflected in a lot of manga produced in Japan. Heroes
are often paired with swords: Rurouni Kenshin, Inu Yasha, and Bleach to name a
few.

~~~
krapp
And yet (as I hear) the Samurai they emulate considered their bows to be their
primary weapon, and their spears their secondary weapon, and considered it a
disgrace to ever need to draw their sword.

They also used guns when they became available. They were soldiers and
mercenaries, after all.

~~~
PhasmaFelis
Of course manga heroes are more about romantic ideals than historical
accuracy, but even so, you can't really generalize about all samurai any more
than you can generalize about all European knights. The samurai class existed
in one form or another for around a millennium. I rather doubt that they all
considered it a "disgrace" to draw their sword.

~~~
krapp
>The samurai class existed in one form or another for around a millennium. I
rather doubt that they all considered it a "disgrace" to draw their sword.

That's fair. I was just trying to imply that the samurai (and Western cowboy,
and European knight, and even modern yakuza and mafia) all present a romantic
facade in popular culture that wasn't and isn't necessarily reflected in
practical reality.

Apparently even the concept of Bushido is a cultural retcon[0,1] as is, almost
everything related to ninja[2,3]. Some young Japanese hoodlums might buy into
the hype, but I don't necessarily trust that anecdata as a basis to make some
general statement about Japanese culture mistrusting guns because they're less
honorable.

[0][https://www.tofugu.com/japan/bushido/](https://www.tofugu.com/japan/bushido/)

[1][https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11990721](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11990721)

[2][https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-UePD6Wp5A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-UePD6Wp5A)

[3][https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR43l77jlpY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR43l77jlpY)

------
dahdum
This conclusion is based on remembered anecdote from 35 years ago...bit shaky
to make firm statements based on that.

Edit: Unless I'm missing something basic here? I don't see any reference or
link to the "study on juvenile crime" the article title references.

~~~
seabird
It is indeed anecdotal, but gang violence is hugely influenced by the culture
of the nation it's taking place in. Brash, unabashed outlaws have been
romanticized in American culture since its very beginning, and firearms have
always been a part of the American gunslinger mythos. Other nations facing
organized crime with access to firearms don't necessarily have the same
issues.

------
ezoe
Seriously? As a Japanese, I can't agree any of the auther's claim.

First, It's less than 20 years old for a crime to be punished differently than
adults in Japan. Not 21 years. An article containing this level of mistake
cannot trusted further.

It said, Japanese biker gang can get a gun but not doing so because of honor,
“Being able to move your finger on a trigger is not really a skill that wows
anyone.” What?

It costs a fortune(and you have to deal with bad guys) to illegally acquire
the shitty hand gun that was so poorly manufactured and cannot be trusted.

And each live rounds cost a fortune too.

How can a young dropouts and delinquents earn such amount of money while still
maintaining the bikes?

~~~
philliphaydon
Huh, Japan is trial as adult from 21 on-wards... Juvenile is up to 20 years
old...

~~~
glandium
No, it's >= 20. But it's actually more complicated than < 20/>= 20.

[https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%B0%91%E5%B9%B4%E6%B3%95](https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%B0%91%E5%B9%B4%E6%B3%95)

Children can be charged at any age, but there is no criminal liability under
14. Children under 14 can still be sent to juvenile detention centers.

From 14 on-wards, they can be sentenced to prison, with reduced sentences
compared to adults.

From 18 on-wards, they can be sentenced like adults.

------
letientai299
This article remind me of the series movies "Crows Zero"about high school
students fight each other to become the leader, and also fight other school's
students. They only use bare hand. Weapon do appears, but very unlikely.

There's also a scene that an the "oyabun" (absolute leader of a yakuza clan)
use gun to kill one man who did not complete a mission, but instead of
shooting into his head, the oyabun gave the man his coat, and shoot to the
back. It turns out that the coat is bullet proof, and the oyabun actually
allow that man to live a normal life thereafter.

Watching that movie make me absolutely want to fight someone with my bare hand
(I know I shouldn't).

~~~
miketery
I highly recommend trying out BJJ (Brazilian Jiu Jitsu). Not only is it
physically and mentally stimulating (I like to refer to it as physical chess),
it also makes you appreciate how vulnerable you are, and by extension why to
avoid physical altercation at nearly all costs. An added bonus is that you'll
be able to defend your self against most people.

------
ggm
Back in the early 2000s I visited Kitakyushu. From my hotel window around
midnight, to 1am I witnessed some local hoodlums rev their car engine loudly,
and then "run away" being chased by police in a car. The chase went around the
square once and then peeled off to .. a red traffic light.

Both hoodlums and police stopped at the red light, and sat there until the
light turned green before resuming their "chase" at approximately 20km/h.

I think they got away. Very slowly.

TL;DR _yes youth culture is quite different around the world_

~~~
patientplatypus
This is one of the most Japanese stories I have ever read.

------
sametmax
Well, there is another thing as well: is it legal and easy to get a gun in
Japan as a person ?

Because I get that a gang use guns in the US, where it's quite easy to get
your hands on one.

But in France, while some criminals do have guns, it's not that common. It's
not only hard to get a gun but it would also almost always considered like a
sure tell something fishy is going on. Having a gun, unless you can conceal it
very well and not be noticed when you use it, is a great way to get busted.

~~~
SlowRobotAhead
You know guns are legal outside of Paris and you can buy silencers over the
counter right?

The most serious restriction on guns in France is you can only own two at any
time that accept military calibers. So 9x19mm, bad, but 9x21mm A-OK.

~~~
sametmax
You need to practice at a shooting range with professional to even get access
to a simple gun.

A process that is hardly as casual as this:
[http://money.cnn.com/2015/06/19/news/guns-background-
checks/...](http://money.cnn.com/2015/06/19/news/guns-background-
checks/index.html)

And come on, if you get an FFL licence, you can even get a silencer or a
machine gun as a normal citizen.

The difficulty is not even on the same scale.

~~~
DrScump

      And come on, if you get an FFL licence
    

It became very difficult to get an FFL without having an actual storefront, or
being a gunsmith, starting with the Clinton administration.

    
    
      you can even get a silencer or a machine gun as a normal citizen
    

That's flat false. Being a conventional FFL doesn't bestow any access to any
NFA weapons.

------
JepZ
So in Japan you are the cool kid when you come with a knife to a gun fight ;-)

I like that attitude.

~~~
m3kw9
In Japan, the person with the gun would be known as bringing a gun to a knife
fight.

~~~
notyourwork
He/she would also probably be known as undefeated.

~~~
DoreenMichele
There are no places to practice. From what I gather, even Japanese Yakuza
cannot hit the broad side of a barn.

~~~
halbritt
Japan produced an IPSC champion some years back. In Japan, he trained
exclusively with an airsoft pistol and only ever fired a gun when he came to
the US to compete.

~~~
notyourwork
Wow, that is incredible.

------
UncleEntity
I can't even count the times I've heard of someone getting into a bar fight
and not being content to get their ass kicked "like a man" proceed to get a
gun out of their car and shoot like six innocent people trying to get back at
the person who did the ass kicking.

It's a cultural thing methinks...

~~~
masonic

      I can't even count the times I've heard of...
    

Probably because that count would be exactly... _zero_.

I have over 60 years of criminology data and yet cannot find one case that
meets your stated criteria (bar fight or any other collection of strangers
resulting in more than 2 fatalities or 3 wounded).

~~~
UncleEntity
1 dead 2 wounded: [https://www.usnews.com/news/best-
states/arizona/articles/201...](https://www.usnews.com/news/best-
states/arizona/articles/2017-05-29/man-dead-2-others-hurt-in-phoenix-bar-
shooting)

1 dead 2 wounded: [http://www.azfamily.com/story/37585825/police-
investigating-...](http://www.azfamily.com/story/37585825/police-
investigating-shooting-near-south-phoenix-substation)

1 dead 2 wounded:
[https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2016/10/2...](https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2016/10/29/man-
killed-2-others-injured-phoenix-bar-shooting/92954984/)

and that's just Phoenix.

Hold on...found a 6 people shot one too:
[https://www.click2houston.com/news/6-people-shot-after-
fight...](https://www.click2houston.com/news/6-people-shot-after-fight-in-
boss-nightclub-sports-bar-parking-lot-1)

Don't think your criminology database is all that comprehensive...

\--edit--

Actually, just up the street from the first link I was in the parking lot of
Kitty's Bar calling into dispatch (was working for Sunrise Cab at the time)
and this "individual" took 3 or 4 steps into the street and unloaded his
handgun in the air. Me (being me) looked at this "individual", who's 30-40
feet away from me, and see he's not shooting at me so go back to what I was
doing and was like "whatever".

Only thing I can think of is he was either mad at getting kicked out of the
bar or perhaps wanted the traffic to stop for his jaywalking, dunno? Of course
all my later calls were in the area the police were conducting their manhunt
which was a PITA.

~~~
freelunch
None of your linked articles fit your original description, so I’d say his
database is comprehensive.

