
Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die' - thirduncle
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/apr/10/sex-workers-fear-violence-as-us-cracks-down-on-online-ads-girls-will-die
======
patrickaljord
I hate to use the <current year> argument but it's really sad that in 2018
we're still trying to make voluntary sex work illegal when every studies show
that it 1) doesn't work and 2) makes everything worse for everyone involved.
Also, the fact that the very president is known to have used prostitutes and
that Washington politicians are well known to be big customers makes this
hypocrisy really infuriating.

~~~
dilap
it's also just an absurd restriction from a perspective that values individual
liberty. "my body, my choice" "consenting adults" \-- all that goes out the
window when it's sex for cash? it makes no sense.

~~~
skookumchuck
Governmental attempts to suppress "immoral" but natural human behavior has
been tried for thousands of years and has never worked. I.e. attempts to stop:

* drinking

* gambling

* prostitution

* drugs

* adultery

* homosexuality

* lending money

* black markets

~~~
jasonkostempski
Lending money?

~~~
djsumdog
I suggest the book Debt: The First 5,000 Years. Almost all early religious
entities, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, condemned the concept of using money
to make money as immoral. The belief was that money was meant to exchange
debt, not make people wealthy off that debt.

Today Islam still holds this as a majority view in many places (not
universally). I'm simplifying it a lot, so I really recommend the book. There
is a strong correlation between debt and guilt. In Christian doctrine, they're
very interchangeable (forgive us our debts/sins as we forgive those who are
indebted to/have sinned against us).

Guilt, Sin and debt are the same word in many ancient languages, including old
English. Guilt and debt are still the same word in German.

~~~
saagarjha
I thought that Judaism had some sort of exception that allowed usury in the
case of lending to non-Jewish people. This was why many banks back then were
run by them.

~~~
soneil
My understanding is that a lot of banking was jewish simply because of their
legal system. You could reasonably expect a jewish bank to obey a jewish court
decision, even if that court was on another continent. This lent an otherwise
unheard of level of credibility, and allowed jewish banks to network like no
other.

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whack
It's really sad to hear about sex workers fearing for their very lives, let
alone their livelihood. These are some of the most disadvantaged and
vulnerable members of society. Their lives could be so much better if we moved
towards Netherlands/German-style legalization. Instead, we seem to be going in
the opposite direction.

I wonder who exactly the opponents of sex-legalization are trying to
"protect". Trafficking victims? They will be vastly better served by a well
regulated workplace. The sex workers themselves? I think this article debunks
that myth. The Johns? Hah, there's a good laugh. The criminalization of the
sex industry seems like Prohibition all over again.

~~~
dwighttk
>Trafficking victims? They will be vastly better served by a well regulated
workplace.

why?

~~~
colinb
I think the obvious answer is because they could complain to the police if
they were under threat. Of course, it being the obvious answer doesn't
preclude it being nonsense, so feel free to tell me why I'm wrong.

~~~
jzymbaluk
I think the more obvious answer is that if the market is well-regulated and
above-board, there is no need for the shady unregulated black market where
kidnapping and human trafficking are things that happen.

~~~
dwighttk
Then why are the Netherlands "a source, destination, and transit country for
men, women, and children subjected to sex trafficking and forced labor"[1]?

[1][https://www.state.gov/j/tip/rls/tiprpt/countries/2017/271251...](https://www.state.gov/j/tip/rls/tiprpt/countries/2017/271251.htm)

------
coenhyde
Just legalize it already! It's been proven time and time again across many
countries around the world that legalizing and regulating prostitution creates
a safer environment for the girls AND the customers.

~~~
ihsw2
Prostitution is abhorrent to the women's rights movement -- it is another tool
of oppression.

Women are having sex with men whom they otherwise wouldn't have sex with -- we
should be removing the need for sex work rather than accommodating it. Sex
"for survival," child prostitution, sex trafficking -- none of these go away
when the stigma and illegality are removed and if anything it gets worse
because clients just automatically assume their sexual partner isn't (for
example) a victim of sex trafficking.

~~~
coenhyde
Ah no. If you listen to the sex workers who are generally WOMEN they advocate
for legalizing and regulating sex work. Because they want a safe environment
to work in.

By making sex work illegal you are preventing people in the industry from
going to the authorities to report all the things you are against. You will
never stop prostitution by saying it is illegal, all you are doing is allowing
the criminal elements to thrive. If you care about preventing sex trafficking
and child prostitution you need the help of people in the industry to ensure
organized crime can not operate with a cloak of silence.

~~~
ihsw2
How is prostitution different from rape, where sexual autonomy is removed by
economic force rather than physical force?

~~~
rosser
How is having a job different from slavery, where personal autonomy is removed
by economic force rather than physical force?

~~~
smadge
Abolish the wage system!

------
ocdtrekkie
I think the missing discussion is that some bad law exists, but that
SESTA/FOSTA is not that bad law: Websites should not be immune to prosecution
for intentionally facilitating criminal activity. Section 230 is a bad thing
and it going away is a good thing. Headlines I've seen like "sex workers are
the canary in the coal mine for free speech" are not really accurate, because
this is about activity which _is and has been illegal_ , not suppressing
speech.

The problem is that there's no good reason for prostitution in general to be
illegal in the United States. While I have no interest in partaking in such
activity myself, I realize that the sole interest in banning it appears to be
religion... something which cannot and should not govern our country's laws.
I'm a Christian, but I don't think Christian views should be the determining
factor in our legislature... that's the Constitution's job.

~~~
blhack
>the sole interest in banning it appears to be religion

If you can't think of any moral hazards around prostitution, then I don't
believe that you are trying very hard.

>I don't think Christian views should be the determining factor in our
legislature

Is Christianity the only moral system that looks poorly upon prostitution?

~~~
PhasmaFelis
There are plenty of moral hazards around prostitution, and banning it outright
makes all of them _worse_. It makes the women involved criminals and deprives
them of legal protection when they're abused.

The only reason to make prostitution a crime is if you think prostitutes
themselves are committing evil. That is 100% a religious position with no
rational support.

~~~
DanBC
How does your comment fit with children being drugged and forced into
prostitution?

And then adults being drugged and forced into prostitution?

And then adults feeding a drug addiction?

At which point of this ladder do you start to say "no, this is where we need
to make it illegal"?

~~~
lists
> How does your comment fit with children being drugged and forced into
> prostitution?

That's already illegal. You've just made discovering it harder.

> And then adults being drugged and forced into prostitution?

Also already illegal. You've made discovering it harder.

> And then adults feeding a drug addiction?

That's actually none of your business.

> At which point of this ladder do you start to say "no, this is where we need
> to make it illegal"?

There's no need since you don't actually solve coerced prostitution by making
it illegal.

~~~
blhack
>That's already illegal.

Maybe we should just make one singular law that says "be nice".

Hey, I bet you could make a religion out of that!

/s

Saying there is already a law that covers something is disconnected from
reality, or at least disconnected form language and the way that humans
communicate.

For instance: "drugging people is illegal". You haven't defined "drugging" or
"people" in that case. Is it drugging a person when a school nurse gives a
child a acetaminophen? You're definitely changing both their physical and
psychological state, and are in some way establishing a relationship of
dependence.

This is why we have more than one law, and why we don't base our laws on
religion.

------
aaroninsf
Two attempted kidnappings yesterday:

[https://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Teen-girl-young-
woman-e...](https://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Teen-girl-young-woman-escape-
kidnappings-in-12819197.php#photo-11304920)

FTA: "Just two hours earlier, in what police said was an unrelated incident, a
19-year-old woman was walking just three blocks away from the kidnapping when
she was dragged into a car by a group of two men and two women."

The northeast mission remains a center of drive-by prostitution. Hard to read
these stories without speculating this is an indication of what's to come
thanks to SESTA/FOSTA.

Can't believe that Kamala Harris supported this. It's not helpful to say this
is a reasonable law and that prostitution's illegality is the problem. In the
world we live in it is and will remain so.

That makes this a bad and dangerous law.

------
AFNobody
> Donald Trump is expected to sign the law this week, but sex workers across
> the country told the Guardian they were already suffering consequences.
> Craigslist shut down its personals section, and federal authorities seized
> Backpage.com, releasing an indictment this week accusing its founders of
> money laundering and “facilitating prostitution”. The list of charges did
> not include trafficking.

And just a reminder this law was 100% unnecessary to prosecute Backpage.

This was purely puritanical bullshit designed to hurt sex workers in the US
that are here legally. They just needed a "cause" to sell to rubes.

~~~
giancarlostoro
Just like SOPA wasn't necessary when they took down Mega Upload by arresting
people accross the world without SOPA or any of the proposed bills that
followed....

~~~
AFNobody
It is almost like they are lying about the need for more power.

------
forkLding
I've wondered if a solutions is to allow prostitution 'brothels' as legitimate
businesses by those prosituting like Amsterdam or in a legalized Red Light
District or even operate as semi government owned and taxed like they do weed
(still in the works) and alcohol in ontario canada.

It would take out all of the danger and illegality as for example one doesnt
go into shady corners or connections to buy cigarettes or alcohol like weed
because its legalized and policed correctly.

------
yters
It's interesting seeing all the men supporting 'sex work' when it is the woman
who is left to deal with the repercussions of her body being used and abused
for money. The real problem is not the crack down, but the social forces that
make women feel like this is the only source of income available to them, and
the dirtbag men who take advantage of them. This does not boost my opinion of
internet "intellectuals", nor of the HN community who seem largely in favor of
taking advantage of women in this way.

~~~
esarbe
Sex work is work. Just like a job in a mine or on an oil rig it might be an
unhealthy, dangerous job with serious health repercussions. But it's a job
nonetheless.

Would I prefer a world where men didn't have to waste their health in mines
and women theirs in prostitution? Sure, I'm all for a UBI. But it is hypocrisy
to treat these professions and the health implications they have as any
different.

~~~
yters
Mining is a legitimate need. Men don't need prostitutes. What men need is to
treat women as equal human beings, and not a vessel for their lusts.

~~~
esarbe
You make it sound as if lust was something bad. Interesting.

Sexual intercourse is as much a necessity as is mining. More so, I'd say.
Humans are not mining machines, they are reproduction machines. To deny this
is to deny human nature. Also, sex in and in itself has nothing to do with
respect or disrespect. It's simply a physical act.

~~~
yters
It is. Lust makes one person dehumanize another person and use them as a tool
for their own pleasure. Anytime we dehumanize each other it is bad, regardless
of the negative consequences, of which there are many (broken families, STDs,
domestic violence, child abuse, etc.)

~~~
yters
Consent is not a magic wand that makes all actions moral.

And yes, brokeness will be with us for all time. So, your solution is to just
allow things to get worse? Sometimes you have to take a hard stand on things
to help people not destroy themselves.

~~~
esarbe
It's not as if there were any absolute moral values. And if everybody involved
can give informed consent, why should that not be enough?

~~~
ihsw2
Self-control and empathy are absolute moral values, there are many but these
two form the core of the civilizing process. A society where these two are
absent is a society of anarchy and self-destruction.

To imply that all social norms and taboos are moot in the face of
individuality is to imply that the individual is the core atom of humanity and
it clearly is not -- it is the family.

~~~
esarbe
Self-control and empathy are very useful moral values if you want to have a
stable and peaceful society. I agree that they are 'good' moral values.

That doesn't make them absolute.

------
taobility
another headline: Drug dealers fear violence as DEA existing. Drug dealer is
also dealer!

------
yters
What kind of 'feminist' community is HN when men want women to let strangers
abuse their bodies? 'Feminist' men are merely cads taking advantage of women
using politically correct language. Anyways, if this is the sort of 'pro-
women' environment HN wants to foster, count me out.

~~~
esarbe
You make it seem as if there was an universal feminist agreement that sex work
should be illegal.

It's not. There are plenty (female) hard-core 2nd-wave feminists that are all
for legalization of prostitution, citing self-empowerment, economic
empowerment and the acceptance of female sexuality.

~~~
yters
You fail to distinguish between what people who call themselves "feminists"
want, and what actually is in the best interest of women. If feminists
suddenly started saying forced teenage marriages to abusive old men was in the
best interest of women, they'd be wrong. Same in the case of prostitution.

~~~
esarbe
Sorry, but now you've lost me.

You say -- to paraphrase -- 'the True Feminist only speaks what's good for
women and only I decide what's good for women'. That's not an argument, it's a
dogma.

~~~
yters
Say your kid decided it is best for him to eat ice cream all day and play in
the street. Who actually knows what's best for him, you or the kid?

This is not particular to feminism. If we can clearly see someone choosing a
self destructive lifestyle (i.e. drugs), even if it is what they really want,
our responsibility is to help them get out of it.

~~~
bradjohnson
If your brand of feminism has you comparing adult women to children incapable
of deciding what is best for themselves, I think you've lost the point
somewhere.

