
Eliciting emotion - llambda
http://www.gabrielweinberg.com/blog/2012/05/eliciting-emotion.html
======
sparknlaunch12
Really like duck duck go and was impressed when I first heard about it on an
interview podcast with the founder. Unsure why anyone would hold negative
comments about a free tool that offers a nice alternative to google.

Keep up the good work Gabriel. There are many who appreciate the product.

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crusso
I think DDG is fantastic for what it is and what it's trying to accomplish.

That said, I looked through those comments that Gabriel linked to and I find
the comment of:

> which collectively are the most vitriolic I've seen under a single story
> (about us)

... to be the wrong way to look at that thread.

If I were working on DDG, I'd be thrilled with all that great criticism. Some
of it could have been said more gently. Some of it ignores that DDG has a
different mission than Google. Overall, though, it's a raw look into what some
people are thinking -- even if it's a bit rough and tumble.

Gabriel, keep up the great work. Take that criticism and use it for what it's
worth and forget about what's left.

~~~
epi0Bauqu
Thanks, I am! I feed on feedback, and this feedback is as good as any for that
purpose. Maybe vitriolic was too strong a word?

~~~
crusso
I don't know. In relative terms it's probably true since HN is usually very
positive about your work.

Sometimes, though, being in an echo chamber isn't what is best for your ideas
or your company. It's good to step away from the DDG Fanbois and see what the
contrarians are thinking.

~~~
larrys
"Sometimes, though, being in an echo chamber isn't what is best for your ideas
or your company."

Exactly. When you show an idea to someone you should ask them (which is what I
do) "tell me all the things you don't like about it - pick it apart". Nothing
is worse then sharing an idea with someone (like your mom or a relative) and
have them tell you what a great idea it is w/o any _negative_ feedback.

As an aside I hate when in a restaurant they ask you "how is your meal". Of
course people who are really upset will speak up. But what about the people in
the middle or are just slightly satisfied. They will normally just say "it was
good" or something like that.

~~~
crusso
Very true. Wouldn't be refreshing if at the end of your meal, a manager came
to your table and said, "Seriously, I know you indicated you enjoyed the meal,
but if we could do just one thing better... what would that have been?"

~~~
larrys
I've thought about this and wonder if it has to do with the fact that they

a) already know what you are going to say (if they've done enough volume the
complaints generally are the same)

b) if "a" isn't true then does it matter if you have a thousand happy diners
and 6 don't like the napkins from a profit perspective

c) they don't want to put a negative thought in your mind by asking you
(negative priming?)

d) they feel they cover this with surveys that they do

e) they don't want to hear a complaint and then have to comp you (profit)

f) none of the preceding they just don't do it because they are lame and/or
busy.

Anytime I've been asked this type of question though it's been over the phone
by a bank employee who hits me with "is there anything we can do..." and I
don't feel like giving any help to an automaton basically. In general I don't
do any phone surveys. If someone with a clue called me and had a real
conversation I would. I hate surveys.

Of course if the restaurant is really on the ball they can see whether there
is a problem I guess also by watching the diners.

Interesting if anyone in food service could chime in on this issue.

------
northbranch
This post really hit home, as I was dealing with some negative comments on a
reddit ad for my new site last night:

[http://www.reddit.com/comments/tzfhy/the_hippest_mens_socks_...](http://www.reddit.com/comments/tzfhy/the_hippest_mens_socks_the_june_2012_collection/)

I think there is a great takeaway here that negative feedback is often useful,
but you should not blindly try to please everyone. For us, comments like that
will certainly help refine our pricing and marketing strategies. Trying to
convert that person into a customer, however, would be a waste of energy and
focus.

~~~
cjy
The socks look like they are very nice quality, but given the bright designs,
you had expect some comments. The negative comments are probably a plus on net
as they drive more people to look at the ad. How did the advertising work out
for you? Any sales? I advertised on Reddit and lots of traffic but no sales.

~~~
northbranch
We've had a similar experience. It was a good experiment, but our marketing is
driven more by trying to connect with individuals and turn them into
ambassadors. Rather than blanket the web with ads, I try to find influential
people who I think will love our products, and send them an unsolicited
sample. Besides, what's more fun than mailing out free polka dot socks?!

------
rfreytag
Gabe,

Your commitment to feedback is what has locked in DDG as my search engine. I
toyed with it for while and noticed something - made a comment - and got a
response that very day that seemed very personal, accepting, and considered.

That response and the ones from the 5 or so other suggestions I have made to
DDG has only increased my interest in using and contributing to "my" search
engine.

I use other search engines on occasion but only when "my" search engine
doesn't have what I seek - which is to say rarely.

Keep up the personal touches and voice. It works. And thanks (said with some
emotion).

------
sequoia
"There is a natural tendency to want to contradict the story, and do it
first."

Bang on the head. Gabriel just described most top comments on HN threads. :)

~~~
SkyMarshal
That could also just be because people who agree with the post don't have
anything to add and don't comment.

------
tlogan
Please please listen to people like tferris and fchollet: they might look like
jerk and but that makes them an excellent people to listen. They will not say
typical crap which I see on HN: "congratulation", "great team", "very smart
people", "the smartest people I ever met", "I think DDG is fantastic", ...

Don't dismiss comments because they are not written like essays and they are
negative.

And here are my points:

\- DuckDuckGo is stupid name for search engine.

\- DuckDuckGo has the worst interface that any search engine in the market.

\- DuckDuckGo does not handle very well integration from different sources.
For example, if for some reason your company does not have the exactly same
twitter handle as a company name - DDG might just merge some other twitter
handle with your search (the fact that company website links to 'twitter'
handle for that company is kinda ignored - hey names are important). Amazingly
Google search does it right....

\- And of course, DuckDuckGo search sucks - at least it needs to have
something to differentiate.

\- I really really want DDG to succeed.

\- My English sucks.

~~~
fghh45sdfhr3
Subtle troll, is subtle.

 _And of course, DuckDuckGo search sucks._

Unless you describe how it sucks, this is just a personal opinion.

~~~
sequoia
preface: I have ddg as my default search engine on all browsers on all
computers I use and evangelize for them regularly.

DuckDuckGo SERPs DO suck. If you've used the service much, I don't think this
requires a more detailed description but since you're asking I'll try to be
more specific:

* The top links frequently link to content unrelated to what I'm looking for (Jasmine tea rather than the Jasmine testing framework e.g.). How google does this I don't know but _rarely_ do they get it wrong in the same way

* It frequently takes more time/clicks for me to find what I'm looking for searching on a generic DDG search than google. (of course bang searches mean I'm only sometimes using generic/plain search on DDG.)

* The results on google are frequently just better. This is to say even if I find something that sort of answers my question on the list on DDG, there will be a better answer, _higher_ , on google.

Basically, if you are searching the name of a company or something
unmistakably clear, ddg performs just as well as google, but when you get into
longer queries on more obscure subjects, the gap in performance between ddg &
ggl widens _really_ fast.

Is it clear what's meant by DDG results sucking? I don't think that's the
nicest way to put it but as a long time DDG user I won't dispute the
assertion.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Could all that be explained by bubbling? DDG starts without any context so you
have to do the spadework of distinguishing jasmine from Jasmine, every time.
Both a feature and a curse.

~~~
sequoia
Not sure what you mean by bubbling. Are you referring to google's Evil Magic
which does such a frustratingly good job of predict my intent? Yes, it is a
double edged sword indeed.

------
seiji
The tferris comment (is it _the_ tferris? It's been very active recently.) is
basically what Gabriel pointed out -- an instant inverse reaction to the
post's theme.

In our digital isolation, it's natural. We want to scream "They are wrong and
I am right! Look at me!" When we see someone else getting attention, we want
to divert the stream of eyeballs and admiration to ourselves.

It's exactly "Why wasn't I consulted?" syndrome
(<http://www.ftrain.com/wwic.html>). People see words in front of them, and
think they are being consulted and prompted to respond. Here's a hint: you
don't have to say anything.

People feel ignored when they see an opinion they don't believe getting
attention. Nobody likes being ignored. To counteract the feeling of being
ignored, let's just be doubly blunt and vitriolic so you give me more
attention instead of the existing roving opinion. Fuck your logo and your
little dog too! (and your engineering, where you live, and your obtuse
hairstyle!) My opinions are clearly superior. I win.

The commenter suddenly assumes the role of CEO and decides to pass judgment on
a third party. What the heck? It's simultaneously insane and natural (it must
be natural -- see every youtube comment ever).

Humanity needs a firmware upgrade. Until then, act less negatively, don't
inject vapid personal opinions ("This is cool!!!" "this is so dumb"), and help
people who may not understand get up to speed.

~~~
naner
No, it is not the 4HWW Tim Ferriss. He spells his last name differently and is
not a programmer (look at tferris's submission history).

------
liljimmytables
Everyone seems to be going on about bad webdesign, but with the exception of
the blue-on-red in the search bar at the top I find the choice of colours
uplifting. It's a personal taste thing I guess, but DDG isn't going to score
points for homogeneity so they might as well stick with it.

Where DDG really scores over Google is that it is cruft-free. It's not
inviting me to look at maps, images, my G+ account, it's not got sidebars, and
it doesn't break up the search to add in image/shopping results. My brain is
working optimally on the task of scanning the results, I am <s>fitter</s>,
happier and more productive. That's DDG's killer feature for me. It's not even
an original feature, Google used to have it but they got rid. In short, DDG
isn't a Google killer, but it's a great companion.

------
csmeder
Great article!

    
    
       "Update2: I feel I've been a bit misinterpreted. I love
       feedback of all kinds, including negative. And I am 
       listening to and appreciate it all. What I was trying to 
       get at is for other people (who have less thick skins), 
       it  can really get them down. But it shouldn't since if 
       they're eliciting emotion that's great."
    
    

Yeah, I'm kind of sad you had to include this update. I felt the article was
poignantly written. I felt your insights were clear. I wonder if the reason
you were misinterpreted by some is that these people had already made up their
mind about what the article was about before reading it.

As always, thanks for taking the time to describe and share your insights!

------
mark_l_watson
Sorry for being off topic, but do people really pick a search engine and stick
with it long term? I will use a search engine for a few days to a week, rotate
to another. Google gets A little over half of my search business, with the
rest split between DuckDuckGo, Bing, and Yippy (used to be Clusty). There is
zero overhead to switch the default search engine in a browser.

------
rscale
I expected something harsher given the title of the post. I agreed with
virtually everything tferris wrote.

tferris took time, energy and effort to elaborate on some of the things that
caused him to view ddg as an inferior product. I don't think that's "vitriol",
I think it's constructive criticism. When I think of vitriol, I think of
people being mean for meanness's sake (which sadly does happen on HN
sometimes).

I have much broader concerns about DDG, but if Gabriel thought what tferris
wrote is vitriolic, there's virtually no chance he'd appreciate my point of
view.

~~~
lclarkmichalek
There were comments in that thread that were less constructive. This one for
example, strikes me as particularly aimless in its hatred:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4021828>.

~~~
epi0Bauqu
Yes, that is the comment that really tipped me over into writing the post.

~~~
fchollet
I never meant to sound hateful. As a matter of fact I absolutely don't "hate"
DuckDuckGo --actually I seriously considered switching at some point, out of
privacy concerns, and eventually decided against it, for 3 reasons, the main
of which being the UI and graphic identity. Besides, I feel a lot of sympathy
for people like you --I know what it is to be a startup taking on an
established behemoth.

But that's the thing with criticism done over the Internet: readers will tend
to lend the worse intentions to the poster, an effect that is multiplied when
the reader is also the target. Had I written this criticism in an email to you
instead of a HN thread, I would have sugar-coated it in order to be listened.
There is no better way to have your opinion ignored than to make it sound as
an attack on your audience's identity.

Still: do consider a rebranding of your product. The best niche to start from
if your are a search engine is probably the niche of top hackers, rather than
middle-aged women. Mainstream markets are conquered by starting with the
knowledgeable power users for the kind of product you're building (PG has said
that quite a few times I believe). If your name & graphic identity are
disliked by a significant proportions of people on HN, it's a sign something
is wrong.

Thanks for listening.

~~~
SkyMarshal
I have to disagree. I'm not a fan of the name and branding either, but DDG's
value proposition - zero personal info collection - trumps all that by a mile.
So much so that I've been using DDG as my default search for almost a year.
Judging from the other comments I'm far from the only one.

I suspect DDG has enough "top hackers" for whom the aesthetics are a secondary
issue using it already that making inroads with a more mainstream audience
like middle-aged women has much more business value.

Having said that, it _would_ be nice to have named it something that can be
used as a verb. Note to self, something to consider when naming my next
projects.

