
America knows everything - flashfabrixx
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=en&prev=_dd&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vice.com%2Fde%2Fread%2Famerica-knows-everything
======
swombat
Welcome to America, where we read your private mail, track all your movements
online, shoot your dogs, abuse you at the borders, put antibiotics in your
food, bankrupt you when you get sick, throw you in jail with hardened
criminals if you smoke a spliff, and drone-execute you with no warrant if the
president doesn't like you. Would you like fries with that?

~~~
znowi
I suspect soon enough (unless it's already a trend) Americans may be afraid to
even speak of this in public as with mass surveillance you never know how and
when your unfavorable words of the regime may affect you.

~~~
atlanticus
I suspect you don't know any Americans.

~~~
Helianthus
It is one of the bright spots of this: Americans are stubbornly stupid enough
to be completely willing to damn the consequences.

(That is, in some respect, how we got into the social media surveillance
state: brazen willingness to damn the consequences of oversharing, for quite
superficial reasons.)

------
pudquick
While I agree that this person was probably treated very poorly, I also want
to point out that they were traveling for work purposes.

In the United States, non-US citizens entering the country for work purposes
are generally required to get a visa. There are a few (and very few at that)
business exceptions to this process, as listed here:
[http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html](http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html)

He stated that he was: Trying to work several unpaid shows, he would receive
meals and tips as compensation at one or more shows, and then he was going to
write articles for Noisey ([http://noisey.vice.com/](http://noisey.vice.com/))
about it.

Bringing musical instruments with you (and admitting you are a musician - even
if just as a 'hobby') on a supposed tourism visit and going to one or more
cities where you did not have relatives or explicit non-business reasons to be
there probably immediately triggered an investigation as to why he did not
have a visa / whether he required a visa for his visit.

Yes - our border control system is horrible. I totally grant that. But this
person was also explicitly not playing by the work visa rules either.

~~~
nisa
I don't have knowledge about the US border and visa requirements and
procedures.

But even if he did made a mistake wouldn't it be easier to inform him before
he enters the plane? And avoid interrogating him without letting him know what
the problem was? The process he got ranks pretty high on the crazy paranoid
side. I'm sure there are ways to solve the security and visa issues in a way
that does not leave traumatic memories in every casual traveller that maybe or
maybe not misunderstood the rules.

It's obvious that the border control knew what the problem was. Why not tell
him the problem in a polite way? Or why is there no process that avoids that
the person has to fly overseas in order to be scared and not allowed entry?
I'm sure there are legitimate security related cases where such a behaviour
would not catch a few illegal immigrants but all these stories read like they
tuned their ROC curve to maximize the true positives and forget about false
positives at all. It's the same idea behind the NSA spying an the no fly
lists. A huge false positive rate no matter what the costs are.

Looks like this decisions are not the result reason and careful consideration
but instead full paranoia mode. But it's easy to say that from the outside. We
don't know.

~~~
anigbrowl
_But even if he did made a mistake wouldn 't it be easier to inform him before
he enters the plane?_

Some airports in EU countries (eg Shannon in Ireland) have pre-clearance for
passengers to the US at the departure end, ie you go through US passport
control first and when you get on the plane it is legally a domestic US
flight. This is unusual however, just as Americans typically deal with EU
passport control at the EU end rather than before leaving the US.

If you want to avoid dealing with these problems in the airport, the solution
is to apply for a visa from the US embassy before departure.

~~~
nraynaud
There is a big thing with US travel: ESTA, advanced passenger information, and
the airline thing whose name I don't know (when you check in, they already ask
nosy questions about your travel and your girlfriend). So they had a lot of
opportunities to stop him before he got in the plane without putting up with
the burden of a US visa. They chose to let him come knowing they would refuse
him.

When you try to go to the US, you have to get in some kind of trap (there are
those stupid questions which I guess are a framework to make you a liar to a
federal agent if you get caught later), drop all your privacy (that was
probably gone anyways with facebook and gmail), and they have ample means to
close it on you without being an asshole.

~~~
anigbrowl
I haven't looked at the ESTA thing in a long time, but from what I remember it
does ask explicitly whether you plan to work in the US etc. etc. If you tell a
border inspector that you're planning to play at a music festival then
naturally he's going to assume you mean ot engage in commercial activity. It
is up to the individual to read up on the requirements and exercise some basic
common sense (ie customs/immigration officials tend to be pedantic bureaucrats
wherever you go, so be circumspect).

Sorry, but I think you're projecting your biases here with comments like 'they
chose to let him come, knowing they would refuse him.' My reading is that he
probably answered 'no' to all the ESTA questions and then confused the CBP
agent by giving contradictory answers to his questions. I'm European myself so
I'm not carrying a particular torch for US border agents here.

------
mherdeg
This seems like a good place to leave a quick plug for the recent computer
game "Papers, Please", which perfectly simulates the experience of being a
clerk inspecting prospective entrants at the border of a dystopian republic
and approving/denying visas.

As the game progressed I found myself "just following orders", even as they
got increasingly creepy, and now I think I have a much better understanding of
what life is like for these people. There are rules, and you follow them
because your job is to carry out the rules. You may occasionally think hard
about whether what you're doing is wrong, but you don't stop doing it because
you've got a family to feed.

Spooky stuff. I felt like I had a much better understanding, after 30 minutes
in the game, of what border agents are actually doing when I give them my
passport.

~~~
Amadou
You might find the essay, 'The Checkpoint' interesting (and thoroughly bleak).
It is by an Israel Defense Force conscriptee who started working those
internal checkpoints between israel proper and the occupied territories.

It is an account of how an even more extreme situation is utterly soul-
destroying for the people working those jobs, no matter how good their initial
intentions are.

[http://www.bostonreview.net/BR37.4/oded_naaman_israeli_defen...](http://www.bostonreview.net/BR37.4/oded_naaman_israeli_defense_forces_palestinians_occupation.php)

~~~
anonymousDan
Wow, that was a powerful read.

------
Jd
It's very hard to extrapolate from stories like this to know if the actual
instance and intensity of abuses is increasing, or if reportage is increasing
(i.e. landing on HN front page) because of folk's irritation with other
aspects of the US government.

For my money, TSA is right after HSA as far as FUBAR government agencies go.
Seems like quality control is right in the shitter. As for solutions, I'd like
to see a customer satisfaction survey implemented across the board. You might
actually be able to implement something like this in a favorable political
environment (there's no law saying that TSA has to attempt to piss off every
person that comes through our borders). I've noticed that some of these
completely dysfunctional agencies seem to attract the worst sort of bad eggs,
so with something like that you could at least weed out some of the most
underperforming TSA mob squads.

~~~
GauntletWizard
The TSA has nothing to do with this interrogation, as bad as they are; Customs
and Border Patrol are the offenders, here. And this guy made a critical
mistake: He announced his intent to "work" in the United States; i.e. he was
going to play shows. This requires a Visa, even for nonprofit purposes, which
is a silly law, but it is the law.

~~~
catilac
You don't think its weird to be strip searched, and kept from contacting
worried parties, because you decided to play a non-profit show without a visa?

Law or not, I don't think that makes sense.

~~~
MichaelGG
And how is CBP supposed to know his entire intention was just to play a couple
of non-profit shows? He admits he will be compensated (tips and food) for the
shows. Maybe after that he's planning on getting paid shows, or something.

As I understand the law, he could have stayed and appealed the decision. Not
that they're going to tell you that or help you out - they're allowed to lie
to you and so on.

Strip searching seems very excessive, as does the entire handling. But
fundamentally, interrogating someone that appears to be going to violate their
visa is one of the reasons for having CBP at all.

~~~
catilac
Fair point. We have CBP for many reasons.

The mishandling is the primary issue at hand.

I wish there were honest statistics available, so that people could know for a
fact that yes, there are or are not actually a lot of extreme cases like this.

~~~
MichaelGG
The only "extreme" part is that we're deciding this guy is "innocent" and not
worthy of the level of scrutiny. Being interrogated and searched is very
commonplace. So you'd need stats that somehow report how many people they
interrogated and searched _that they didn 't consider to be suspicious_. I
doubt they'll report a very high number, of course.

Best stat I can think of is "how many strip searches resulted in allowing the
person to enter the country", which is also probably fairly low. By that time,
they've probably decided to deny you entry.

Neither shows or prevents mistreatment that the CBP deems OK, which seems to
be the case here.

------
unreal37
To play devil's advocate, he traveled to the U.S. with a guitar, had 5 shows
booked in advance before his arrival, uses a pseudonym to perform and didn't
declare any of this to the border officials. I think the article can also say
he has a CD coming out soon. I can actually see why he was turned away. He's a
musician, hoping to travel and do some shows in the U.S. for fun.

You can't work in the U.S. without a work visa. The rules are pretty clear
about that.

And performing for free is still work.

~~~
jaeysin
According to their rules, performing for free is acceptable:

"participation by amateurs in musical, sports, or similar events or contests,
if not being paid for participating"

[http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html](http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html)

~~~
unreal37
Specifically denied is "paid performances, or any professional performance
before a paying audience". If there was a cover charge to get in, it counts as
work.

[http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1262.html](http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1262.html)

~~~
jaeysin
I think they vagueness of this points to part of the problem. There is no real
specification of what makes an amateur performer in a musical event. I would
assume since he was not contracted to receive a payment for his performance,
it would be acceptable.

And just because there is a cover charge does not count as work. The cover
charge is collected by the venue and does not mean he will get paid, which was
specifically the case here.

------
RandallBrown
I'm not sure what exactly happened, but this is what I gather from the
translation.

John was visiting the United States from London. He was planning on traveling
through California with his girlfriend, then traveling through the south on
his own, eventually meeting up with his aunt in Alabama.

After landing, he had a problem in customs. He had a guitar with him and told
the agent that he would be playing some shows in the US.

He was then sent away from the US because he didn't have a work visa and he
was here doing work.

It sounds like this was a perfect storm of shitty situations. Take an
overworked/stupid/bad (take your pick) security agent, someone who doesn't
speak native english and may have had some trouble explaining his situation,
an expired student visa (adds to confusion) and a weird "working" on vacation
situation and you have a recipe for a bad time.

It sucks.

~~~
nisa
We don't know how good the translation is but I've read the article in German
and there it clear that he studied in the US and presented a paper at a
conference:
[http://www.euce.org/eusa/2011/papers/9d_farneti.pdf](http://www.euce.org/eusa/2011/papers/9d_farneti.pdf).
I'd say it was not a communication problem.

Also: How did they know about his musician alias and his concert dates? From
the article it looks like they read his emails. He could also have posted the
dates for all to see on Facebook.

~~~
ams6110
My bet is Facebook, or other web content promoting his performances. Easily
found with a routine google search.

------
scelerat
This sort of thing has happened a number of times recently to people I know.
I'm a musician and have lots friends who play in bands and book shows, so this
hits close to home.

Last month a band from Canada I was scheduled to play with was stopped at the
border and told to turn around because they didn't have work visas. This group
of four women in their late teens and early twenties -- day jobs at bars and
restaurants, driving a shitty 1980s chevy van -- _might_ get some gas money at
the gig -- which is basically a party in a warehouse -- and free PBRs from a
cooler that the bands all share. This is not the sort of commerce that
threatens jobs or the US economy.

A musician I know just tried to go the legit route but failed to meet the
artistic reputation standards of the Artist (o-1) Visa. US Immigration wanted
newspaper and magazine reviews and proof of past shows at recognizable venues.
If you're a small artist on a small label, you're not going to have those.
You'll have chatter about you on blogs and twitter and facebook, you will have
played at house parties, warehouses and bars, and you're on a small label
website which, honestly, anyone could spoof to look legit. Nevertheless this
guy is a real artist with a great record that a thousand people have bought.
The shows he was going to play probably would have drawn capacity crowds at a
handful of punk rock venues in the SF Bay and elsewhere. But he can't play or
even come to the US because he's not "exceptional" enough.

I have a friend who is on a student visa from a middle eastern country and
presently doing the exact same thing as the OP: traveling around the US with a
guitar and making friends. I sent this to him immediately with the
instructions: "do not ever say you are playing a show. do not ever say you are
a musician. if they ask you about the guitar, tell them you're learning how to
play."

As for the OP, he's just a student. He's not getting paid. Someone's cooking
him dinner and giving him tips because that's what hospitable people do.

Our immigration policies treat harmless people harshly and are absurd.

~~~
dec0dedab0de
Absolutely. There really needs to be a treaty between all friendly countries
that says artists are allowed as tourists as long as they don't make more than
X amount of profit.

------
catilac
Even if you were born and raised in America, you're not truly American unless
you're white. Until then, prepare to be accosted at immigration.

~~~
gnoway
Maybe, but the events in this article are bad enough on their own, there is no
need to inject a racial element into the discussion.

~~~
catilac
No, I think there is a need.

If the definition of what it is to be American is warped, specifically, that
it takes more than citizenship to be welcomed home, then that should come into
the discussion of these cases of mistreated foreigners.

~~~
gnoway
OK, but I read this as "oh that's nothing, we even mistreat our own."

I think you're effectively minimizing this man's experience with an unfounded
(?? maybe just my ignorance) comment about racial profiling.

~~~
catilac
Ah, that makes sense. You're right, I'm probably bringing in the wrong points
relative to his experience.

However, I just feel that his experience opens up a higher level discussion of
America's (poor?) implementation of border patrol.

Also, in terms of unfounded comments. There is a chance you haven't read this:
[http://varnull.adityamukerjee.net/post/59021412512/dont-
fly-...](http://varnull.adityamukerjee.net/post/59021412512/dont-fly-during-
ramadan)

Race is always complex, especially because racism illegal. It becomes a subtle
and hard to describe thing. Maybe "random search" is a good way to describe
it. Ultimately, it makes me feel like I'm being delusional. I hope I am.

~~~
MichaelGG
That story is about the TSA and local police, not the CBP. Very different.

Also, a US Citizen returning to the US does not have to answer any questions
(apart from the written customs declaration) and cannot be denied re-entry to
the US. (Although, as always, agents may abuse people.)

------
flashfabrixx
It seems that every day new reports are published talking about victims that
are denied to enter the USA because of the wildest reasons - even with legal
papers.

But it's not only the arbitrariness that every report seems to claim. It's
more than that the behaviour of the officials towards citizens of other
countrys and nations.

"America knows everything" \- and you're not welcome any more.

------
Sambdala
I feel helpless each time I read an account like this.

I used to get angry.

~~~
kaoD
So they've won...

------
Gravityloss
Why can't the police / border guards just treat these humans as humans. Ok, do
what you must, return them to the originating country if they break some law.

It's unfortunate when it is a cool thing for some to be "tough" like this?

------
znowi
Any person visiting the US today should be expecting this

~~~
ojbyrne
That seems slightly hyperbolic. 50 million people visit the US every year.

------
MichaelGG
Key point:

"The result was that I was denied entry because I was on a business trip
unannounced. The payment in the form of a warm meal at one of the shows in
Nashville at a restaurant with ten tables is apparently illegal."

Well, yeah, sorta. If you come to perform a task and be compensated they might
construe that as work. I'm not sure what he means by privacy violations - if
his name is Googled, are there no results for his stage name? Did he have
nothing in his items with his stage name? It seems odd to just assume CBP
agents are doing something secret when this seems like public data.

I'm Canadian, and I was detained at the border as one CBP agent felt I needed
a work visa (not just stating I'm there for business reasons) to represent my
company at a tradeshow. (OTOH the unions at conference centers also agree that
lifting a box or plugging in cables is work so...) Fortunately his supervisor
disagreed.

------
jmduke
America's border control system is so broken that it saddens me to see posts
like this that reek of sensationalism (I mean, it's _Vice_ ) and hide the fact
that, you know, he didn't have a valid visa.

I'm having trouble understanding what was so deplorable about this story
_besides_ the reprehensible treatment by the officials (which, again, seems
exaggerated)? Am I misreading the story or is refusal to enter the country not
the proper response to not having the correct documentation?

~~~
philwelch
> I'm having trouble understanding what was so deplorable about this story
> besides the reprehensible treatment by the officials (which, again, seems
> exaggerated)?

"Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"

~~~
jmduke
Right, but Abraham Lincoln did nothing wrong by going to the play and the
author did something wrong (I don't mean in a moral sense, but in a sense of
'incorrect') by going to the United States without the proper visa.

~~~
philwelch
Well that's a tortured analogy if I've ever seen one.

~~~
jmduke
Yeah, my point is that the two are in no way analogous.

~~~
philwelch
It's a common expression. [1] In this context it means: this guy's treatment
by the customs & border officials was so reprehensible and abusive that his
legal right to enter the US is beside the point, just like how the actual
merits of the play were beside the point for Mrs. Lincoln.

[1]
[https://www.google.com/#q=other%20than%20that%20mrs.%20linco...](https://www.google.com/#q=other%20than%20that%20mrs.%20lincoln%20how%20was%20the%20play)

------
natch
I wonder if they are using some of the tools developed by Palantir.

------
gweinberg
Anyone else reminded of the Solzhenitsyn book, "We never make mistakes"?

------
drpancake
Well I'm glad this didn't happen to me. I travelled to the US in very similar
circumstances a few weeks ago: European, carrying a guitar, visiting the
South, previously stayed in the US on a J-1 intern visa. The only difference
being that I had a one-way ticket.

I didn't even go through secondary at customs. No issues.

~~~
unreal37
The fact that it's arbitrary doesn't make it any better.

~~~
drpancake
Not defending these immigration officials by any means. It's just a timely and
mildly interesting anecdote.

------
rxaxm
"I noticed an Indian boy in his early twenties at the end of the room." anyone
else think of aditya?
[http://varnull.adityamukerjee.net/post/59021412512/dont-
fly-...](http://varnull.adityamukerjee.net/post/59021412512/dont-fly-during-
ramadan)

------
g8oz
I'm interested in the fact that it seems that low level border flunkies have
access to the email of anyone they're interested in for _work_ violations.

Not terrorism or anything. Another example of security state mission creep.
Download all your emails now.

------
stretchwithme
So much wasted time, money and energy and much freedom lost.

Welcome to the land of cops and lawyers.

------
smoyer
How many of these do I have to read ... this is my government and _I DEMAND_
more from it. (Of course right now they've closed every office that might
accomplish something visible).

In the mean-time, I'd like to apologize to the citizens of earth for the
horrible behavior of those performing in our security theater.

EDIT: My trips to Germany were very pleasant ... with the exception of having
to take goods through customs (for expediency's sake), everyone was pleasant,
courteous and relatively efficient.

------
fleitz
I feel bad for the guy, but having been across the US border a few times it's
important that if you're travelling for anything but spending money in the US
you'd better phone and find out if you need a work visa.

    
    
      Volunteering? VISA.
      Working for free? VISA.
      Might ask someone for change? VISA.
      Speaking at a conference? VISA.
      Having coffee with someone and may discuss business? VISA.
      Friend might buy you a beer? VISA. 
      You plan on bringing your bags to your hotel room yourself? VISA.
    

Exceptions: If you are going straight to your hotel, then going to disneyland,
going back to your hotel and back to the airport then you might not need a
VISA, as long as you also know the flight number, airport, airline and seat
number you'll be leaving the US on, then you _might_ not need a VISA but
should probably phone the consulate and find out anyway.

~~~
RWeaver
I bet the tourism companies inside the USA are over the moon with where this
is going.

------
dude3
As a Chinese citizen you can come into the US ridiculously pregnant and have
your kid in the US on a tourist visa via a flight and never get hassled. You
can walk across the southern border and create a human fence around ICE vans
and get a slap on the wrist.

The problem: This guy doesn't serve a political interest so he gets hassled.
Face it, this country is backwards and caters only to the elite.

~~~
alexeisadeski3
I'm just a bit confused: How are an expectant Chinese mother and a Mexican
migrant worker examples of the elite?

~~~
dude3
They are not the elite, they cater to the elite and special interests goals.
China has 60 per cent of its $3.5tn foreign currency reserves invested in US
assets. A housing program that offers green cards to foreigners who buy
$500,000+ houses. How about the money going to US universities from 194,000
Chinese students. The $8.2 billion Chinese buyers spent in the 12 months to
March 2013 of $70 billion on real estate. China will biggest economy in the
world and we (USA) needs access. Migrant workers expand the population,
provide cheap labor, and consumption A.K.A. grow the economy. They also vote.

~~~
dude3
The Chinese elite/the ones making the rules that you refer of, are the ones
buying the houses. Who can buy a 10th house a 7,900 miles away that costs 2.5
million in cash? Mark Z Yes. If your argument were true, we would see relaxed
immigration/TSA because of Obama. But, this article leads me to believe that
it has gotten worse, not because of Obama, but because of the system. The
birth factor might be considered a thank you in a simplistic sense. The
Chinese are buying up houses that wouldn't be bought/proping up the market.
The National Association of Realtors does happen to be the largest lobby
group.

But, the point is, in such an extreme sense as mentioned above. Someone so
visibly pregnant that a blind person could figure it out isn't given the
slight of day. While a German dude with a guitar is practically thrown in
prison. All I am pointing out is the irony/hypocrisy. And since it is so
ridiculous and happens all the time there must be an explanation. Do you have
one?

~~~
alexeisadeski3
As a matter of fact I do have an explanation:

The US is a huge country with a ridiculous mess of overlapping laws and
massive bureaucracy. It's a legalistic nation, one in which the laws are
typically followed to a 'T' regardless of how much sense it makes. This leads
to all manner of weird stuff happening.

------
zobzu
Ive been at the border several times, non us citizen, and i've always been
treated with respect. In fact, the guys at the border were always nice to me,
sometimes dared a joke or asked me for help to translate something to someone
else.

So yeah, i'm sure there's horrible ones and troubles happen, but i wouldn't
make that a generality just like that.

~~~
jansen
I am one of the lucky ones as well and have been treated with respect every
time. Sometimes I even had insightful conversations with border control.

However, along the increasing rejections of visa for highly talented people +
more and more stories like this one are signaling a very very bad trend.

I have noticed both among my peers: visa rejections for founders with funding
from US investors, befriended founders who are being pulled into second
screening every time they enter the country, my co-founder being rejected to
enter the country once and now also being pulled into second screening every
time (despite having an O1 visa). It's degrading and simply horrifying. And
most definitely not a good trend for the US.

This is a very emotional topic. I get sad and angry every time I read or hear
a similar story.

------
JackFr
I suppose it might be google translate, but this seems like a guy lying on his
visa application, being rudely called out on it, and letting his fierce sense
of entitlement take over.

------
koalaman
It's kind of neat the way that google translate includes the german accent.

------
SonicSoul
this site sucks so bad from a phone. every time i scroll i get some sort of
context ad that covers half my screen. not you Vice.. not you :(

------
alexeisadeski3
This is what happens when soccer moms and helicopter dads run your country.
Selfishness and paranoia rule the day, all behind the guise of good
intentions, fairness, and security.

------
adventured
When you hire vastly too many enforcement employees (I'm lumping HS/TSA/etc
all together here), what ends up happening is they find things to do. The
reality is, TSA and Homeland Security have very little to do. The threat is
not greater today than it was 20 years ago, but we've acquired tens of
thousands of new personnel with absolutely nothing meaningful to do (and the
tens of billions of dollars in costs to go with them).

You see the same exact effect in traditional police, SWAT teams, and so on.
All that ends up happening is they terrorize good people.

------
benched
Even as a U.S. citizen, every time I've traveled to other countries in the
past few years, it's always jarring going from the hospitable, friendly
customs people in the other countries, to the literally rude awakening of
getting practically accosted by the agents in the U.S. upon returning.

~~~
pjlegato
Try Russia or Germany - neither country has border officials that could be
described as "hospitable" or "friendly." They make US border guards look like
teddy bears.

~~~
jansen
I cannot speak for Russia, but Germany cultivates a fundamental mentality of
liberalism and respect, for any kind. It will be very difficult to find
someone in Germany that wears a badge who has less than 13 years of school
education or acts unreasonably, disrespectful or doesn't play by the rules.

~~~
pjlegato
I didn't say they weren't respectful. I said they cannot be described as
hospitable or friendly, which is true. German border guards are very
professional and respectful -- they follow the rules exactly -- but they're
not friendly. They're rather cold.

~~~
jansen
Fair enough. They are cold or better 'neutral'. I'd take cold and neutral any
time over judgmental and degrading.

~~~
pjlegato
I've come into the US many times, and personally witnessed thousands of people
being granted entry into the US with nothing but professionalism. Cases such
as this are certainly rare.

There will always be a few people in any large group who treat others badly,
and US border guards are no exception. I'm sure we could find rare similar
cases in Germany or anywhere else, too.

------
wrobbins
tl;dr

