
Adventures at the Vipassana Enlightenment Factory - kranner
https://karanvas.com/posts/adventures-at-the-vipassana-enlightenment-factory/
======
zenincognito
I think the author missed the point about not engaging in intellectual
discussions or questions. The very fact that if you intellectually dissect the
course or the time, you move away from the very thing you are supposed to do.
Stabilse yourself.

The article felt a little negative and while Goenka may or may not be
enlightened a lot of teachings and discourse are but classical buddhism. The
author I felt fell in the same trap Goenka does of criticising Gunaratne.

Don't know who Goenka is but have several family members who have done
Vipasanna and have been privy to their experiences.

~~~
kranner
> The author I felt fell in the same trap Goenka does of criticising
> Gunaratne.

Author here. Goenka didn't criticise Gunaratane, or even mention him or any
other Buddhist teacher by name. The most specific he got was when he was
explaining that "other traditions" might teach (what is generally called)
'choiceless awareness' but he doesn't teach that, because the meditator would
miss out on the development of awareness in body parts that don't appear in
awareness spontaneously. But then he did recommend the equivalent of
choiceless awareness practice to be done in bed just before falling asleep,
and again just after waking.

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Ididntdothis
I did a Goenka 10 day a few years ago and I agree with a lot of points the
writer makes. It bothered me a little that there was no way to ask questions
and getting a useful answer. I asked the teacher a few questions but the
answer was pretty much always a variation of “just keep meditating”. I found
this a little frustrating. I have asked Tibetan and Thai Buddhist teachers
similar questions and they usually gave very detailed and practical answers
that brought my practice and understanding to a better level. I think the
Goenka seminars are good but I think it’s necessary to learn from other
teachers.

~~~
grok2
See the answer nabla9 gave. There is no real truth and the idea really is to
just meditate and not worry about the truth or the nature of truth. So there
is no point in the questions themselves.

~~~
Ididntdothis
No offense but this is incredibly unhelpful and useless to say. Maybe some
people can pull it off but most people won’t make progress without some
guidance. In addition most of us don’t live in a monastery or are
independently wealthy so we have to live in the world and somehow find a
positive path through it. Telling people to meditate and not ask questions is
completely unproductive. Buddhism has a long history of inquiry and debate for
that reason.

~~~
zozbot234
You need guidance for _different_ reasons too. Vipassana meditation is serious
business, and the early, 'easily'-reached stages that these first workshops
tend to focus on (e.g. the 'Arising and Passing Away' stage, often mistaken by
beginners as "enlightenment" itself) have a way of leaving you psychologically
vulnerable to a sort of spiritual crisis, which is sometimes called the 'Dark
Night of the Soul'. This problematic stage can and _should_ be overcome by
further developing in 'insight', but the whole thing is a _lot_ easier and
more comfortable if you know what to expect! AIUI, this is Ingram's main
criticism (of sorts) of these workshops.

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kaffeemitsahne
> _My sense of smell seems to vary with the amount of meditation I 've
> recently done. Normally I have almost no ability to smell; but at breakfast
> one morning at the retreat I could almost taste the orange someone was
> eating two seats away._

Ah, but what about the severely reduced food intake? ;)

~~~
kranner
Author here. I've had similar or more reduction in food intake on intermittent
fasting regimens over extended periods. They didn't seem to nudge my sense of
smell much, if at all.

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namanyayg
Articles like these, describing the pragmatism, acceptance of all ideas, and
deep investigation (as rigorous as many scientists for sure) of Buddha make me
wonder if there was any other like him. Clearly, Goenka is not a Buddha and
doesn't seem to have attained enlightenment.

And Buddha's thoughts on rebirth make a lot more sense when you realize that
not being reborn was rebellious to the status quo where rebirth was seen as
natural. It was one part of his learnings that I was confused about and now I
realize he was being pragmatic again.

Did we have any one like the Buddha again? Do we have anyone at the present,
is it even possible for someone to be enlightened presently? And if Buddha
genuinely was the only one who reached this level, did he actually glean
"divine" truths?

~~~
kranner
> not being reborn was rebellious to the status quo where rebirth was seen as
> natural.

The Upanishads and the Bhagavad Gita from the Hindu traditions primarily
discuss liberation from rebirth and various paths to it. [1] At least some of
the Upanishads probably predate Buddhism. [2]

Liberation from rebirth has always been an integral part of the whole rebirth
lore. So the Buddha's teachings were in that sense not rebellious to the
status quo. It is even possible that the status quo actually coloured his
opinion of his subjective experience of meditation so much as to lead him to
believe he had found another path (if not the best path) to liberation.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation#Hinduism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation#Hinduism)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanishads](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanishads)

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georgebarnett
I’m always curious why folks think acetic practices like sitting in pain and
not taking your meds are helpful with meditation.

It’s if you think taking an antihistamine is going to screw up your
meditation, you’re probably on the wrong path.

~~~
kragen
Falling asleep on the zafu is definitely an obstacle many people struggle
with, especially at first, and has been even before antihistamines. Do you
think all those people are probably on the wrong path, too?

I find acetic practices like putting vinegar in my salad helpful to meditation
at times.

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abledon
if he succumbed to 'writing' with a pair of scissors, he still has work to do!
Vipassana, or using another technique. Great summary though, esp about the
cult aspect.

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nabla9
Author is overthinking and taking teaching too seriously (religiously).

Buddhism has concept called the Two truths doctrine. Ultimate truth and
provisional truth. There are also parables in the sutras where Buddha
describes his teaching as not being the ultimate truth itself.

In the parable of dad saving his children from burning house , dad uses fancy
toys to draw the attention of kids so that they walk out of the burning
building. Essentially bullshitting them.

There is also comparison of his teaching to a raft to cross the river.
Teaching has utility value to get people across, it's not useful to carry it
after the river is crossed.

Another thing in Buddhist thinking is consideration to how different people
understand things and what they need psychologically. There are people who
just want to hear from authority figure what to do and they believe it and
just do it (maybe majority of people). You must teach them in a that way.

As a modern interpretation of this, my teacher told me that the point of his
public talks is to tell people something that makes them to attempt meditation
seriously until it 'clicks'. The practice itself sorts out those who can do it
and can't. Most people will never be into it anyway. The motivation and
reasoning that makes people to start does not really matter at all.

The name Buddha gave to his religion was not Buddhism. It was Dhamma-vinaya,
'doctrine and discipline'. In my experience after being involved with
mediation circles for 20 years, gym-rats used to hard training and daily
discipline have much better start with meditation than people like me who are
overthinking and analyzing, and who try to make sense of everything said.
Instructions are there to help with training, you don't go to mediation
retreat to learn philosophy.

~~~
sargossamaru
>gym-rats used to hard training and daily discipline have much better start
with meditation than people like me who are overthinking and analyzing

this right here is a good summation of why buddhism is just a cult of advanced
physiology, those 'too much in their own head' and the truly mentally ill
never do well in it. Buddhists like Alan Wallace insist this is a condition of
fortunate conditions of karmic rebirth, in which those who have both social
access to the Buddha's teaching and the neural complexity and health to
integrate it successfully are in a 'Higher' rebirth caste than others.

~~~
nabla9
I disagree. There are certainly some people who can't do it, but most people
can.

The most common reason why people can't do it is exactly the same reason why
people start physical exercise, or start eating healthier or any self
improvement and then fail: problem in self regulation and the ability to
maintain routine.

Big part of monastic type training and retreats is just fixing this very
thing. The group and the routine comes from outside, you can do it.

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davebryand
I just ran `brew install awakening`--much easier.

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jelliclesfarm
If spirituality and religion are going to be commoditised, then there will be
reviews.

I don’t see much difference between religion and sex. Their natures are
diametrically opposite when it’s practiced privately vs publicly.

All forms of evangelism is advertising. Which brings up the question, why?

I have a theory that the reason religions/spirituality are actively encouraged
to be spread because mob control and crowd control is necessary in a complex
world. Being ‘good’ and ‘righteous’ is about creating homogenous societies who
all play by the same rules and the reason these mind virii distinguish from
each other with practices and icons and beliefs and structures is to be able
to recognize and know ‘the other’.

Someone in the past said, religion is the opiate of the masses. It isn’t so
anymore..it is more like pharmaceutical drugs prescribed by your doctor after
a very heavy deductible. I can keep going on with this analogy but it is too
predictable. So..please fill in the blanks yourself.

The notion is that we should be ‘good’ and easily recognized as ‘one of the
tribe’, as it were...and speak the same language. It keeps the peace.
Ironically, with the advent of monotheism, not so much anymore. Which begs the
question, is the hack..that we know as religion/spirituality...outdated? Is it
corrupted to the point that the system is attacking itself?

Certain themes are universal and don’t need institutionalized religion. I will
give an example of forgiveness.

Last August, there was a hit and run case and a man died while riding his bike
to work. The driver of the car that hit him took off. Last week, he turned
himself in..

An overwhelming majority of the (religiously diverse) community was glad that
he did and almost all of them thought that he did the right thing, he must
face his punishment and that he will be at peace now that he doesn’t have to
live with the guilt anymore. And then all said he should be forgiven. They
never said that he should be let go and avoid imprisonment or trial. But then
said that they forgave him.

I found that fascinating. Forgiveness is important. And promoting forgiveness
is more important.

Most of them have children. They were using the same technique parents use
with kids. Punishment without forgiveness will make sure that the future
mistakes will never be confessed.

No punishment can be delivered without chances of redemption. No rules will be
followed without the threat of punishment. I understood religion better at
that moment. In a sense religion is for the order and well being of society.
It is not for personal spiritual ascension. Not the version of religion with
rules and strict observances. And publicly displayed.

Like the tail of a peacock. I don’t mean to make religion vain or vain
glorious. To the contrary, I think we need such performances.

My point is that current state of religion is a mixed bag. Some are obviously
failing. You can see this in the world arena where there is communal/sectarian
violence and religious unrest. The hack has failed.

I suspect it is mostly due to its commoditization and emphasis on the reward
system. There are no more sacrifices for the larger community. It is
transactional.

My 2c. It was an informative read. Congregations are important to any faith.
Religion or politics or family or celebration..all of them require assemblage
of like minded people. They assemble because they agree to the rules. For some
it is a trial run. Others subscribe to it. Others are initiated and adopt it
from their families of origin. But at the end of the day, it’s meant to be a
hack for public peace.

~~~
selimthegrim
First of all, I take issue with this issue of no punishment without
redemption. By redemption do you mean "accepted back as member of the
community in good standing"? Or "your descendants won't be punished for 10000
generations"?

Secondly, think of the state as the aliens in Philip K Dick's story Faith of
our Fathers. Religion in the form of poet-saints and the Bhakti tradition in
the Indian subcontinent is an antidote to that and a reminder that virtue has
nothing to do with education or literacy (see Akbar who was illiterate as an
example)

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jelliclesfarm
Question: Would we all become more spiritually stable with micro doses of LSD
or ‘shrooms?

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riskneutral
Author suffers from a disease called thinking too much. Symptoms include
complaining too much.

~~~
dang
Maybe so, but please don't post unsubstantive comments to HN.

