
India, U.S. Agree to Joint Exploration of Mars - ForHackernews
http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2014/10/01/india-u-s-to-agree-to-joint-exploration-of-mars
======
Naritai
While I'm a big supporter of international co-operation, remember that the US
has been striking a number of technical deals with India, as a part of a long-
term political investment in bringing up a large democratic power to balance
China. I think this has as much to do with that goal as it does with sharing
technical information.

~~~
sillysaurus3
I have a dumb question. What's a large democratic power, and how does it
differ from China? I'm not implying China is in any way democratic, but rather
inviting someone to further explain what the goal of the US is.

Is it likely that this is simply empire expansion rather than an altruistic
goal of balancing China? Mainly I'm just wondering what the concerns might be
if a large democratic power (and I'd still like to know what exactly that is,
and how it differs from other modern powers) isn't brought up in the region.

Forgive my ignorance. I probably should have taught myself these things long
ago rather than invested all of my time in programming and other pursuits.

Also, just to clarify, I am aware of the textbook definition of "democracy,"
"republic," etc, but it seems like those names are more of a flag for people
to fight under than a definition for a state of being in the modern era. So
I'm quite curious to understand the issues at play here.

~~~
andrewljohnson
_I am aware of the textbook definition of "democracy," "republic," etc, but it
seems like those names are more of a flag for people to fight under than a
definition for a state of being in the modern era_

You seem to be assigning moral equivalence to democracy and Chinese
communism/totalitarianism.

If you aren't just trolling, then differences include the right to travel, the
right to free speech, the right to read the internet uncensored, and the right
to vote.

~~~
sillysaurus3
More like there are a billion of them, and I'm sure they see us as morally
inferior, just as you see them. I'm here to understand the issues and make my
own decision.

Haven't you ever wondered about something that you knew nothing about? How
would you learn about it other than reading and asking questions? I have no
idea how you concluded that I might be trolling, especially after I both
admitted ignorance and asked to be cut a break for it.

Regarding your list:

\- Right to travel: There are many people from China living in the US. Do you
have more info about this point? I don't understand how their right to travel
is restricted.

\- Right to free speech: If you were to try to start a new news organization
to compete with CBS/Fox/etc, the organization wouldn't get very far unless it
had a clear political agenda and was funded by supporters of that agenda. I'm
interested to hear about what it's like in China in comparison to the US.

\- Right to read the internet uncensored: There's no debate on this point.

\- Right to vote: Candidates seem to be elected based on how well-funded they
are. Or rather, no one votes for an underfunded candidate, so these are
equivalent. Again, I am interested to hear about China's system, and why it's
morally inferior in comparison to this.

Thanks for your time. I realize I probably sound pretty dumb here, but I'm
here to learn, not to defend my position. In fact, I have no position. Only
questions.

~~~
ryanhuff
Nobody claimed that the Chinese people are morally inferior.

Your example of comparing the challenges of starting a news organization to
compete with the likes of Fox News to that of the censorship that has been
going on in China for years seems to a stretch, to say the least. Same goes
for your "right to vote" comparison.

I recommend you visit Amazon and pick up a couple of books on China if you are
interested in getting up to speed on what is going on. Also, check out the
events that have been going on in Hong Kong.

~~~
sillysaurus3
Do you have any recommendations in particular about which books I should read?
Thanks!

------
suprgeek
Exciting news but is it an unqualified positive for both? Sometimes
Constraints are what drives breakthrough innovations.

India's ability to Manage Significant space exploration programmes on a Shoe
string budget is driven in part by the need to innovate on a "ShoeString"
budget. What we as a race desperately need is low cost access to Space - which
perhaps may not become such a priority if NASA is allowed to influence ISRO.

On the other hand maybe ISRO will influence NASA & wewill get the best of both
- super low cost missions with super advanced payloads :)

~~~
cjensen
NASA had a "go cheap" program to try crazy stuff on a shoestring that just
might work. There were good results like Pathfinder ($150M) which tried the
crazy idea of landing using an airbag.

The problem is that the Powers That Be were not understanding about the
failures inherent in trying crazy ideas out. So we went back to expensive
spacecraft which were less likely to fail.

~~~
Ankaios
NASA has opportunities like the Small Explorers (SMEX,
[http://explorers.larc.nasa.gov/APSMEX/](http://explorers.larc.nasa.gov/APSMEX/)),
Discovery
([http://discovery.nasa.gov/p_mission.cfml](http://discovery.nasa.gov/p_mission.cfml)),
and New Frontiers
([http://discoverynewfrontiers.nasa.gov/program/index.cfml](http://discoverynewfrontiers.nasa.gov/program/index.cfml))
into which you can propose to conduct missions of different size/cost classes.

If you have low-cost mission concepts for achieving important scientific
objectives, _please propose them_.

------
peeters
This is exciting but makes me nervous. India is re-imagining "space travel on
a budget", but if all of a sudden they have to play by NASA's rules and
standards, their ability to innovate at low cost might be hampered.

Hopefully whatever form of cooperation they come up with lets India continue
to operate mostly independently.

~~~
shas3
You are implicitly assuming somehow they don't currently 'play by NASA rules
(and NASA-level) standards.' Any evidence that this is so?

~~~
peeters
I'm not disparaging the quality of India's space program. I'm more saying that
once you bring NASA into the picture there's the potential of inheriting 70
years worth of engineering requirements and process which could be detrimental
to a fledgling space program.

Edit: And you added the "NASA-level" which put words in my mouth that I did
not say nor mean. I meant what I said: "NASA's standards"; standards that NASA
has developed for their programs and contractors, which may or may not be
beneficial for India's space program.

~~~
swatkat
_> >>> I'm more saying that once you bring NASA into the picture there's the
potential of inheriting 70 years worth of engineering requirements and process
which could be detrimental to a fledgling space program._

Indian space program was started in 1962[1][2]; and over a period of time ISRO
has pretty much mastered technologies related to launch vehicles, satellites,
science missions etc. This new joint working agreement pertains to following
areas:

1) Mars exploration:

 _" The joint Mars Working Group will seek to identify and implement
scientific, programmatic and technological goals that NASA and ISRO have in
common regarding Mars exploration. The group will meet once a year to plan
cooperative activities, including potential NASA-ISRO cooperation on future
missions to Mars."

"One of the working group’s objectives will be to explore potential
coordinated observations and science analysis between MAVEN and MOM, as well
as other current and future Mars missions."_

2) Earth observation:

 _" The joint NISAR Earth-observing mission will make global measurements of
the causes and consequences of land surface changes."

"NISAR will be the first satellite mission to use two different radar
frequencies (L-band and S-band) to measure changes in our planet’s surface
less than a centimeter across."_

Moreover, ISRO and NASA have worked together earlier as well. Few examples:
ISRO's Chandrayaan-1 Moon mission carried NASA's scientific payloads[3]; NASA,
NOAA and ISRO share ISRO's Oceansat2's oceanographic data[4]. So, I don't
think this new agreement would be detrimental to ISRO's operations :)

[1][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_National_Committee_for_S...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_National_Committee_for_Space_Research)

[2][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Space_Research_Organisat...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Space_Research_Organisation)

[3][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandrayaan-1#Instruments_from_...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandrayaan-1#Instruments_from_other_countries)

[4][http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/209482.pdf](http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/209482.pdf)

------
swatkat
Official press release: [http://www.nasa.gov/press/2014/september/us-india-to-
collabo...](http://www.nasa.gov/press/2014/september/us-india-to-collaborate-
on-mars-exploration-earth-observing-mission/)

And, NISAR Earth observation mission looks very exciting as well:
[http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32478.msg12...](http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32478.msg1237077#msg1237077)

~~~
mturmon
NISAR is a very interesting mission from a technological point of view. It
will have two radars, at least one of which gives 10m resolution, and they
will be obtaining global coverage. The data rate is huge, larger than any
Earth remote sensing mission to date (many TB/day).

Earth scientists are already having problems dealing with contemporary data
volumes, and NISAR really raises the stakes.

------
wilsonfiifi
I was really hoping India's Mars probe would mean that the public in general
would finally have a new independent source of information and data.

However this is great news and I'm sure the joint effort will speed up the
tough task of uncovering the planet's secrets.

------
krylon
I've been hoping for a while for more international cooperation on space
exploration. Going to space is not cheap, and if several countries pool their
resources, under _ideal_ circumstances the result should be more science for
everyone.

But politics has kind of prevented that. For governments, space exploration
seems to be more about showing off than about advancing science.

I hope that in the future, different countries cooperating on missions will
become the norm rather than the exception. I know I'm being somewhat
optimistic, but this article shows I am not being completely naive. Nice.

~~~
chelch
I'm pretty sure there is a significant amount of cooperation when it comes to
space exploration. Space missions often carry instruments from different
countries. For example, the lunar probe that discovered water on the moon,
Chandrayaan-1, carried instruments from different countries. Curiosity carried
instruments from other countries too, if I'm not mistaken.

It's just that you don't read much about this in the newspapers, because
newspapers would rather make it look like there's a space race going on.

------
WWKong
Just a friendly reminder that India follows metric system.

------
thearn4
I would consider technical collaboration in this space (pardon the pun) to
generally be a great thing. Missions to Mars have historically been very
difficult:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_missions_to_Mars](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_missions_to_Mars)

Hopefully, this kind of partnership doesn't get weighed down too heavily by
the intricacies of international politics.

------
danielweber
On one hand, this could be really encouraging, allowing India to increase its
home-grown engineering capacity.

On the other hand, "international cooperation" is often the death of many
projects, particularly space projects.

On the other other hand, it wasn't like NASA was about to do something huge
and cooperation with India puts that goal at risk.

~~~
teamonkey
> On the other hand, "international cooperation" is often the death of many
> projects, particularly space projects.

There are plenty of counter-examples. The ISS is an effort that spans the US,
Canada, Japan, Russia and Europe (ESA). Hubble is NASA-ESA.

~~~
danielweber
Why is that a counter-example? The ISS is incredibly more expensive,
complicated, and accomplishes less science because it's "international."

~~~
ZenoArrow
"The ISS is incredibly more expensive, complicated, and accomplishes less
science because it's "international.""

Accomplishes less compared to what? Skylab? Mir?

The ISS is designed to host up to 7 crew members. For purposes of comparison,
Mir could host 3. What makes you suspect 7 astronauts can do less scientific
work than 3?

~~~
danielweber
Skylab construction cost: 10 billion in modern dollars

ISS construction cost: 150 billion

ISS science projects keep on getting cancelled for budget reasons. I think
spending $150,000,000,000.00 building it has something to do with that.

~~~
teamonkey
Skylab was cheap(er) because it was launched in one single stage (IIRC it
literally was a Saturn V cargo bay).

The ISS was designed to be built up over several years, over several launches,
with each launch costing much less than Skylab but obviously more overall. It
was a design decision that favoured amortizing costs for an age that couldn't
afford another Skylab.

------
melling
I wrote this on the WSJ comments several hours ago but it's worth repeating
here. I believe that it would be valuable if the US invested more basic
research money in India. We might be able to greatly increase our research
output in the basic sciences. Start small then increase the budget as research
in India matures.

------
anupshinde
IF this works, this will surely accelerate the process of sending humans to
other planets (may be not Mars)

~~~
privong
Why do you say that? The techincal goals of this mission are fairly modest,
and do not seem to bush the boundaries of launch technologry or involve
technology that would be useful for human survival in space.

The agreement and mission are both good things, but I do not see how they will
have much of an effect on human spaceflight.

------
tauslu
As usual, action speaks louder than words. This co-operation would probably
not take place if India's mission did not take place or very few would listen
their Indian counter parts if such agreement were signed without the mission.

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ps4fanboy
This is great news, I am surprised the EU doesnt have a more uniformed vocal
space program.

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innguest
Why could they not have agreed to cooperate _before_ NASA spent $650M on the
Maven program which does the exact same thing that ISRO's $74M Mangalyaan
does?

I demand a refund.

~~~
ceejayoz
Oh, bullshit.

[http://www.quora.com/What-are-the-key-differences-between-
NA...](http://www.quora.com/What-are-the-key-differences-between-NASAs-MAVEN-
and-ISROs-Mangalyaan-Mars-Orbiter-mission)

------
nether
the desification of the US continues:

dean of harvard

ceo of microsoft

ceo of pepsico

ny ag

1/3 of mckinsey

------
tn13
India and US also agreed to fight terror while US continued to fund terror in
Pakistan.

Very likely US is going to put sanctions on Indian space research as soon as
India declares its ASAT capabilities.

