
Americans’ Personal Data Shared with CIA, IRS, Others in Security Probe - wikiburner
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/11/14/208438/americans-personal-data-shared.html
======
nullymcnull
What's really sad about this is that all of these federal agencies, the
journalists reporting on them, and the public at large, continue to take it as
a given that the polygraph is a useful and reliable tool that does what it
says on the tin. Yet there remains precious little credible science to support
that.

It's downright absurd that people are having their info passed around these
agencies, and being treated as inherently suspect, simply for investigating
methods of 'fooling' what is ultimately a glorified stage prop.

~~~
rsync
"What's really sad about this..."

What's _really_ sad is that a lot of people, either through job/economic
pressures or lack of self respect take lie detector tests at all - _regardless
of effectiveness_.

The poor effectiveness and/or technical problems with the test are not the
issue. We as humans - as peers - should demand to not suffer the indignity of
a "truth test".

~~~
res0nat0r
Isn't this a fundamental piece of the US court system? You take the stand and
swear to tell the truth.

If there were no consequences of lying in court then we'd have much bigger
problems with the justice system than we do now.

~~~
coldtea
> _Isn 't this a fundamental piece of the US court system? You take the stand
> and swear to tell the truth._

That's totally different than a polygraph test.

~~~
res0nat0r
I guess I was interpreting: We as humans - as peers - should demand to not
suffer the indignity of a "truth test", to mean any type of "truth test", and
not just a polygraph.

------
001sky
_Federal officials gathered the information from the customer records of two
men who were under criminal investigation for purportedly teaching people how
to pass lie detector tests. The officials then distributed a list of 4,904
people – along with many of their Social Security numbers, addresses and
professions – to nearly 30 federal agencies_

So, what does this mean? They got a list of 5000 people that bought a book
[edit: or in touch with the author]. And put them all on a "blacklist"? ...
For "future reference"?

~~~
Bahamut
If you bought the book and decided to apply for a job in or related to the
federal government that required a security clearance, this would be a huge
red flag. IMO this is a non-story, since the purpose seems exclusively to
potentially screen out people who cannot be trusted with the sensitive
information that gets handled by people with security clearances (which
includes social security numbers), which the federal government has every
reason to be wary of.

If anyone questions the data gathering of the government, sure, but this
particular story is a non-story IMO.

~~~
forgotAgain
Buying a book is now a big red flag?

So to be truly safe I guess the government should know all the books we each
buy and those we borrow from a library. They should also track what everyone
reads online.

~~~
Bahamut
The contents of said book is a red flag if you want a security clearance - it
says you are willing to cheat to get a job doing governmental work.

~~~
Zigurd
> willing to cheat

Defeating a voodoo ritual is cheating? Isn't it more like protecting yourself
from false accusations?

~~~
Bahamut
Regardless of your irrelevant implicit commentary on lie detectors, my point
still stands. Nobody is forcing you to do a polygraph test when you're
applying for a security clearance - that choice is yours alone to make.

~~~
Zigurd
So only people willing to subject themselves to a goon who could, at random,
accuse them of lying with no basis in fact should get security clearances?

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forgotAgain
_" You have access to all of this data – all of their financial records, all
of their telephone records, all of their transactions . . . ," Customs
official John Schwartz said in a June speech to police polygraphers that
McClatchy attended. "Then we can look at that list and determine for ourselves
if we are good or not good at detecting these countermeasures."_

The countermeasures in question concerned beating a lie detector test. It's a
very short step to the countermeasures being any civil protests.

------
mbateman
"Federal officials gathered the information from the customer records of two
men who were under criminal investigation for purportedly teaching people how
to pass lie detector tests."

What? How is that illegal?

~~~
FBT
"Obstruction of justice". Yeah...

~~~
Zigurd
When you use voodoo in attempting to get justice, calling it voodoo is an
obstruction of justice. QED.

~~~
ihsw
It's not voodoo, please stop spreading FUD. The name -- lie detector -- is
complete horseshit because it doesn't detect lies, but that doesn't detract
from its effectiveness as a low-level torture device.

The physiological measurements may be inadmissible to the courts, but if you
happen to confess to a crime during the (thoroughly unpleasant) interrogation
then that is perfectly admissible. This key point here is why LEOs are so
adamant about subjecting their prisoners to polygraph examinations.

Over 95% of Federal court cases end as a result of a plea bargain, despite the
plea bargain being offered under threat of lifetime imprisonment and death.

~~~
Zigurd
Isn't calling voodoo voodoo the opposite of "spreading FUD?"

~~~
aethertap
I think you can use voodoo in two ways: "Impossibly arcane but near-magical
technology" or "total crap."

------
mtgx
"There have been no abuses, as a result of mass surveillance", said Obama.

~~~
forgotAgain
"If you like your insurance, you can keep your insurance."

~~~
tedunangst
I think you're on the wrong site. That lie was for the greater good, so it's
ok.

~~~
talmand
Depends on the definition of the person's idea of greater good.

~~~
tedunangst
By HN standards, obamacare is definitely the greater good.

~~~
maaku
Really? Did I miss that memo? Because my family got fcked over by Obamacare
and will be paying 2x premiums next year for a lower quality plan. That's the
good, right?

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headgasket
I've heard they were under scrutiny because they were looking into a book of
which the exact title is: The Theory and Practice of Oligarchical
Collectivism, by Emmanuel Goldstein. That's not goodthink.

------
alephnil
What you mean about polygraphs is not the important thing here. It is the idea
that if you have read or written something the government does not like, you
end up on a blacklist that bans you from many jobs. This is totalitarian
ideology regardless of how democratic the US is otherwise. I find it quite
scary, especially given that the authorities also have the means to more or
less keep a complete list of what you read, at least if you read it or ordered
it through the internet if they so desire.

------
swalkergibson
Wow. Obstruction? Because book? I would be really curious to see the warrant
application for the customer records of the book's authors. Was there really
legitimate need for that, or did the prosecutor just say "terrorist" and that
was that? I am really struggling to come up with reasons to remain in this
country.

EDIT: Removing some of the emotion.

------
csandreasen
They didn't bother linking to it, but the same news outlet gave more
information back in August [1] naming Doug Williams as the other person
instructing how to pass polygraphs. Another article released by a local news
outlet two days later [2] stated that he was sought for questioning but not
charged with any crime.

As for the other guy, he wasn't convicted of writing a book on fooling the
polygraph. According to the prosecuting attorney [3], he was travelling around
the US giving one-on-one advice to clients who wanted to pass the polygraph
for $1-2k plus travel expenses each, receiving specific details about each
case, instructed them to lie and provided instruction on exactly how to
conceal those details. I think in this case the feds definitely have
reasonable suspicion to believe that his clients are guilty of perjury or
falsifying testimony in order to gain employment with the federal government,
and they had enough evidence to show that he knowingly aided them. I'm not
surprised at all that they took his business records for further scrutiny.

[1] [http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/08/16/199590/seeing-
threats-...](http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/08/16/199590/seeing-threats-feds-
target-instructors.html)

[2] [http://www.news9.com/story/23178002/authorities-
investigate-...](http://www.news9.com/story/23178002/authorities-investigate-
ok-instructor-teaching-polygraph-beating-methods)

[3]
[http://www.oig.dhs.gov/assets/pr/2013/oigpr_090613.pdf](http://www.oig.dhs.gov/assets/pr/2013/oigpr_090613.pdf)

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frank_boyd
Kill it with FIRE.

~~~
fennecfoxen
[http://thefire.org/](http://thefire.org/) ? Aren't they a little more
"education" oriented?

~~~
BrandonMarc
It's a start.

~~~
frank_boyd
EVERYTHING starts with education.

Education is the most important thing the human race needs.

