
Facebook, Google Drop Out of Top ‘Best Places to Work’ List - JumpCrisscross
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-12-11/big-tech-companies-slide-in-annual-best-places-to-work-survey
======
KingMachiavelli
I really can't convince myself to put any stock in this. How can one compare
In-N-Out Burger to Google? Aside from a small fraction, most of the positions
don't overlap.

Also when really big, recognizable companies have their rating change so
drastically, it's obviously reflects more about the PR of the company than
it's work environment. If you don't consider ideology, Google didn't actually
become a terrible place to work rather it's its employees, by the nature of
their demographic, be more informed and apt to oppose certain policy and also
feel they have the leverage to cause internal change.

~~~
kerng
Google hasn't become a terrible place to work, it's just not as great as it
was 5 years ago. I think most people would agree with that.

Also, why can a burger company not be as good or better then an ad company to
work for?

~~~
ericd
Well, there's the small matter of a couple hundred thousand dollars difference
in comp.

~~~
Rebelgecko
In-N-Out managers make more than the median salary of Californian software
engineers ($160k vs $120k)

~~~
wuliwong
According to glassdoor the avg salary for In N Out managers is ~84k [0].

>The typical In-N-Out Burger Store Manager salary is $84,315. Store Manager
salaries at In-N-Out Burger can range from $55,134 - $130,157. This estimate
is based upon 11 In-N-Out Burger Store Manager salary report(s) provided by
employees or estimated based upon statistical methods. When factoring in
bonuses and additional compensation, a Store Manager at In-N-Out Burger can
expect to make an average total pay of $114,271 .

Not sure what the "total pay" means exactly but that averages 114k. Still way
below the 160k you quoted which I think was from this article:
[https://medium.californiasun.co/in-n-out-store-managers-
earn...](https://medium.californiasun.co/in-n-out-store-managers-
earn-160000-wages-b08fe6f1706f)

The California Sun article gives no sources for the claims of an average
salary for in-n-out managers of 160k. Which is amusing as the article does
reference Indeed.com for the "architect" salary it compares to in-n-out.
According to Indeed.com the average salary is 42.8k [1]. I also saw that the
story was picked up by USA Today, so I'm sure most people will forever more
think In-N-Out store managers are making 160k on average, truth be damned.

[0] [https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/In-N-Out-Burger-Store-
Manag...](https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/In-N-Out-Burger-Store-Manager-
Salaries-E14276_D_KO16,29.htm) [1] [https://www.indeed.com/cmp/In--n--out-
Burger/salaries/Manage...](https://www.indeed.com/cmp/In--n--out-
Burger/salaries/Manager)

~~~
Rebelgecko
According to that Glassdoor link, the average base salary is $84k and the
average extra pay (bonuses?) just about doubles that. I'm not sure if I'm
reading it right since like you said they describe the average total pay as
$114k

~~~
FernandoTatisJr
Glassdoor says the salary average is based on 11 reports. 5 reports included a
bonus averaging $82,701 (and 2 reports included profit sharing averaging
$10,345). The question is why only 5 of the 11 reported a bonus; or more
specifically, did the others receive bonuses that they didn't report? If
Glassdoor assumes that the other six didn't receive bonuses, then the average
total pay of $114K makes sense.

    
    
        84,315 + 82,701*5/11 + 10,345*2/11 = 123,787
    

The simple way I see to count these doesn't match the $114K, but it's close
enough that I can buy that that's a big part of it. But the question is still
whether the assumption (that nobody else received bonuses) is correct. It's
plausible that many people fill out only the base salary figure, even if they
have other compensation. If everybody gets a bonus, then the $160K figure
reported in the other articles could be justified.

------
llarsson
Both a burger chain and an airline are among the top ten companies. And
VIPKid, which I had to look up, which is apparently a "teach kids in China
English via the web on your own schedule" service.

This list sounds ridiculous.

~~~
edw
Klout for Workgroups®

------
r00fus
Another day, another "best place to work" list that has no real quality
controls on the reviews or methodology to ensure reviews are not fake or
coerced.

They all do not control for systemic bias of reviews.

At what point is it just a marketing piece?

~~~
mc3
Reminds me of a company years ago that had particularly low morale for various
reasons. They then entered one of these good place to work competitions and
told us that "yeah it's ironic, but help us by giving us a good review because
it's good for marketing". And dutifully everyone agreed.

Glassdoor is fun. Worked a different company with lots of honest raw reviews
giving you a real feel for it. Couple of years later, issues not addressed,
but now great reviews! Well done to the repu managers.

------
sharkmerry
full list: [https://www.glassdoor.com/Award/Best-Places-to-Work-
LST_KQ0,...](https://www.glassdoor.com/Award/Best-Places-to-Work-
LST_KQ0,19.htm)

Methodology: [https://media.glassdoor.com/staticList/pdf/2019/Glassdoor-
Be...](https://media.glassdoor.com/staticList/pdf/2019/Glassdoor-
BestPlacestoWork-Methodology-US.pdf)

Not sure how accurate glassdoor is since its plagued by the same issues as
most review sites.

~~~
edw
The data on Glassdoor is abysmal. I was looking up several engineering job
titles in the local area (NYC) to compare them to the sorts of salaries we had
needed to offer to land good candidates. The quoted numbers were consistently
60-70% of the actual salaries we had to offer four years ago.

~~~
taurath
And the companies that recruit through Glassdoor absolutely love that.

~~~
mrep
My secret theory is that glassdoor purposefully doesn't improve their website
because they don't want everyone to know how poorly they pay compared to
GAFAM.

levels.fyi is so much more accurate and informative whereas glassdoor never
seems to update their numbers nor add new features like career levels that it
really makes me wonder what everyone does there especially as I think
www.levels.fyi was written by 1 guy.

~~~
taurath
They set low salary expectations for job hunters while selling their
recruitment services to companies.

------
jasonjei
Not a surprise since both companies require in-person work and don’t place
remote work as one of their cultural values. Both have become extremely
corporate places to work.

Many of the Googlers I know dread the Gbus rides from SF, and many that have
left have found remote work or city jobs.

------
ForHackernews
> HubSpot Inc., a cloud-computing software company, grabbed the No. 1 ranking

Haha, is this the same HubSpot?
[https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/06/books/review-disrupted-
da...](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/06/books/review-disrupted-dan-lyons-
fake-steve-jobs.html?_r=1)

~~~
jhatemyjob
I can't believe this comment isn't at the top. This list is complete bullshit
lol.

...I mean I guess it kind of makes sense, most people on this site probably
don't read books D:

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Koremat6666
Ask yourself this, if you have a 5 year old kid then in which company would
you want him/her to work when he/she grows up ? Google or In and Out Burger ?

~~~
scarmig
Depends on the position. Would you prefer them to be an accountant at In-N-
Out, or a Google contractor paid to scroll through and flag thousands of
images of child pornography?

~~~
ggggtez
This is highly inaccurate for a number of reasons:

The scores are _averaged_ which any statistician will know means that in a
place like In And Out where most jobs are making $10-$20/hr. Maybe there are
accountants at In-N-Out, but I doubt their opinion even moves the needle here.

You could say the same about the content flaggers or whatever. The majority
opinion from FAANG companies is going to be engineers.

And side note: I think anyone who spends their time helping catch child
predators is someone to be respected...

~~~
scarmig
You're doing a bit of sleight of hand by treating averages.

The comment I was responding to was proposing a hypothetical dilemma, between
guaranteeing your kid would work at Google or would work at In-N-Out. My point
was twofold: one, that the idea that all jobs at FAANG companies are great is
wrong (and, no, the majority of workers at FAANG companies are not engineers,
who comprise a minority of employees); and two, the worst jobs at FAANG
companies are worse than the worst jobs at In-N-Out. Yes, catching child
predators is critical, but reviewing user-supplied content for child
pornography, extreme graphic violence, etc. as part of your day job is
incredibly psychologically traumatic. It's also likely that the contractors
who do so receive worse compensation and benefits than the average In-N-Out
worker, who does get paid relatively well and also gets health benefits.

------
bcassedy
These lists barely make sense. They compare apples to oranges. On top of that,
they're heavily gamed.

I know of at least one company near the top of that list that has to be
astroturfing their reviews. Most folks there hated their job and the turnover
was insane. Like we're talking onboarding classes where 50% or more of the
employees quit within a month or so.

------
realradicalwash
the "best" in 'best places to work' is pretty vague. it's based on employee
reviews and a lot goes in there. what is best for those who have left reviews?
social atmosphere, pay, career path, etc.? it most likely differs from company
to company, sector to sector. with this in mind, comparing In'n'Out to fb is
comparing apples to oranges. however, the fact that fb and google have
experienced such a noticeable drop in favourability over time _is_ news.

------
summerlight
I don't think constructive discussions by any mean can be done with comparing
tech companies to fast food franchises, but it's still interesting to see 3~4
tech companies in the top 10 list. Is there anyone who can provide anecdotes
for those companies in terms of working environment, career growth
compensation, perks, etc...?

------
gumby
These rankings are as absurd as college rankings, "30 under 30"s, country
rankings etc. They are PR driven, not meaningful.

And in fact, say, google may be great if you're in some roles and miserable in
others. How can you normalize that?

But it worked: I clicked on the link.

------
neonate
[http://archive.is/qngfX](http://archive.is/qngfX)

------
paulie_a
If you work at those companies you are just supporting tracking and
advertising (generally ineffective ads). It's nothing to be proud of. If I see
those companies on a resume that's an automatic no. You spied on people and
still didn't make better marketing than the 70s. Nothing to phone home about.
There is no prestige in that

~~~
aurea
Which companies are you talking about? Google & Facebook? Or HubSpot? I only
see 1 marketing company in the top 10.

~~~
paulie_a
All three you mentioned are marketing and ad companies. Their business models
can be distilled to the same thing.

Google atleast makes hardware now.

------
nfRfqX5n
surprised to see Netflix missing from this list

~~~
whatever_dude
Ditto -- I'm curious what's people's opinion of working at Netflix. You don't
hear it very often.

I've heard from friends that they pay very well, that it's very challenging,
but that "they treat people like adults". Which can mean a lot of things. But
to me it sounds positive overall. (But again, small data set).

------
OrgNet
A burger place is in the top-10? This list is suspicious.

~~~
vernie
Why, because you look down on that type of work?

~~~
forgotmylogin2
Because it pays ~$30k/year and Google/Facebook pay ~$200k/year.

~~~
lame-robot-hoax
Because if they factored salary into their metrics that highly the only thing
would matter is pay.

This list is about the best places to work in the world in 2020. Not best tech
place to work. Or best place to work if you have a degree.

In N Out pays very well for a fast food position. Compared to comparable jobs
at other fast food companies, it’s easily the best one to work at.

~~~
chrisseaton
You said we shouldn't factor in pay, then the only thing you say is good about
In and Out is that they pay well.

~~~
nilkn
He/she said they pay well for a fast food place, which isn't the same
statement.

For a company C, define S(C) to be the set of companies where the "average"
employee at C could conceivably get a job without significant extra training.
Under this survey, a company C is ranked highly if it is considered great
within the group S(C) of companies. Said differently, a company C is ranked
highly if employees working at other companies within S(C) tend to want to
work at C specifically.

While we may not be telling our kids to strive to work at a burger place when
they're adults, the reality is there are millions of people out there who
aren't going to be working at Google for various reasons but they still
deserve good jobs that pay well and treat them with respect. It could very
well be the case that In-N-Out stands out as a great place within S(In-N-Out)
more than Google does within S(Google).

Perhaps the point of contention then is whether lists like this should be
_aspirational_ or _empirical_. You could easily make an aspirational list by
reducing it down to raw absolute pay. I'm not sure how useful that really is.
This list is interesting (to me, at least) because these are places where
people are actually really happy, given what their realistic options are.

~~~
OrgNet
> While we may not be telling our kids to strive to work at a burger place
> when they're adults, the reality is there are millions of people out there
> who aren't going to be working at Google for various reasons but they still
> deserve good jobs that pay well and treat them with respect. It could very
> well be the case that In-N-Out stands out as a great place within S(In-N-
> Out) more than Google does within S(Google).

so the reason they are on the list is because they employ more people?

~~~
nilkn
I don't think so. In-N-Out, for example, is one of the smaller burger chains.
Google has more employees than In-N-Out but didn't make the list.

