
Hundreds of dogs in Norway hit by mystery illness - kristofferR
https://www.mattilsynet.no/language/english/serious_illness_in_dogs.36035
======
laxd
As a dog owner in norway following this, my bet is on an extra bad seasonal
outbreak + breaking the threshold of runaway media. Recent news article said
there is a spike of dogs dying with these symptoms every spring and autumn.
Even now, the majority of affected dogs just end up more or less sick for a
couple of days. Not dead. I even suspect my own dog had it. It was bad enough
that we would have called the vet if it was'nt the worst time of day and week
for getting hold of one. (He's fine, tending his stick collection.) A "dog
hotel" owner interviewed on tv said about half of the 17 dogs she took care of
got sick, only two got it badly, none died.

~~~
kristofferR
If this was only a media fear fest the Norwegian Food Safety Authority
wouldn't act as they have. They wouldn't recommend dog owners to avoid dog
socialization if they didn't think this was a serious, real threat.

It's clearly a seasonal thing. The autumn weather activates Providencia
Alcalifaciens somehow, but how isn't known yet. It's apparently a part of the
normal gut flora, but the levels are very elevated in the dead dogs.

\------

This article is really interesting (paywall):

[https://www.aftenposten.no/norge/i/MRWR00/Har-
ventet-i-13-ar...](https://www.aftenposten.no/norge/i/MRWR00/Har-
ventet-i-13-ar-pa-at-bakterien-skulle-dukke-opp)

Paywall free article (translated to English):
[https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=no&tl=en&u=https%3...](https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=no&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fkristofferr.com%2Ffiles%2Fdog.html)

The bacterium have apparently killed dogs before in South-Africa.

~~~
zaroth
I don’t know how it is in Norway, but in the States sometimes these
organizations like to “get out ahead” of something for fear of being blamed
later.

In the US we have an average of 7 cases of EEE (Mosquito born illness) in
humans per year, but if you get it it’s often fatal. This year there was an
“outbreak” in MA of 7 cases. There are 36 communities which are claimed to be
at “critical” risk.

The problem with this nonsense is that they close the town fields and they
don’t let the kids outside before school starts or even for recess. This
apparently will continue until the first hard frost hits.

It’s tragic that a few people have died. I think it’s insane to respond by
effectively canceling fall outdoor sports.

Humans are just really bad at evaluating risks of extremely low probability
events.

~~~
hdfbdtbcdg
Norwegian culture is very different to US culture with this sort of thing at
many levels. If a Norwegian public body declares an emergency it means there
is a problem.

Some examples... There isn't really a blame culture here. People can fuck up
massively and face no serious consequences. There isn't really the same
aversion to risk. Sick people are told by their doctors to get some exercise
and lose weight before the doctors reach for drugs. It would seem alien to an
American in many ways.

~~~
vonseel
Those are some of the things I love about Norway. The culture and people seem
much more practical, on many levels.

As a Texan with family in Norway, I’ve often admired Norwegian culture...
Everything is just so _koselig_ , you know?

~~~
hdfbdtbcdg
There are some downsides. The fact no one is held accountable for failure
means incompetent people can waste a lot of resources and time.

------
lvl4x
"In most cases where several dogs live in the same animal care, only one dog
has become ill. This may indicate that the possible disease is not so
contagious from dog to dog. For the time being, the Norwegian Food Safety
Authority's advice on restricting close contact between dogs remains valid."

I'm looking forward to seeing what caused this. Really strange (In my non-
expert mind) that it hasn't made its way to Sweden.

~~~
tom_mellior
> Really strange (In my non-expert mind) that it hasn't made its way to
> Sweden.

Elsethread people are speculating that it might be due to contaminated food.
Sweden is in the EU, Norway isn't, and AFAIK the EU doesn't like importing
meat and other agricultural products.

~~~
cjg_
Norway is in the EEA and that means they are effectively bound by same rules
as the rest of the EU governing trade.

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
The EEA free trade and common standards have significant exceptions for
agricultural and fisheries products. Norway and so on are not subject to the
Common Agricultural Policy or Common Fisheries Policy, and can put significant
tariffs on EU products in those areas AIUI.

------
kristofferR
More info: [https://edition.cnn.com/2019/09/10/europe/norway-dog-
disease...](https://edition.cnn.com/2019/09/10/europe/norway-dog-disease-intl-
hnk-scli/index.html)

Spain is advising people dog owners to not travel with their dogs to Norway.

There are fears that it might spread to other countries, it spread all over
Norway quickly without any logical common cause found.

~~~
mogadsheu
One possibility is that the disease is carried by humans and affects dogs more
heavily.

When I lived in Norway mild flu symptoms would spread through society and
quickly, especially when the weather would start to turn cold and dark.

~~~
pvaldes
Humans and dogs do not share many diseases. Flu are too different in both
species. All the cases would be spatially related in this case. With most
cases in a small area instead some animals falling ill here and there.

~~~
tomatotomato37
The carrier doesn't have to get sick with the disease to spread it; most of
our insect-transmitted diseases don't affect the insect in any manner after
all.

~~~
bayesian_horse
It sounded like you can rule out transmission through insects due to the
patterns.

Transmission through latent infection of Humans would also be strange. Dog to
Dog would be more probable. Of course, Humans accidentally transfer pathogens
from animal to animal all the time.

------
Havoc
I really like the tone of their regulator.

Straight up we don't actually know but here is our best known info.

As regulator the temptation is always there to say it's all fine. So saying we
don't know is extra hard.

------
pvaldes
Maybe food. Dogs eat fish normally in norway?

> serious bowel disease, with bloody content in the small intestines. Non
> transmisible from dog to dog...

Sounds like food poisoning, yup. Or water. I assume that radiation can cause
those symptoms of tissue bleeding if ingested via food or drink.

Clostridum happened suspiciously as cause of massive death of 10.000 Saiga
just weeks after forests of Chernobyl burned.

Smells like scorched atoms. What do we know about the recent Russian atomic
accident?

~~~
NikkiA
> What do we know about the recent Russian atomic accident?

That it was notable, but tiny, less than 100x background radiation within
close proximity to the release.

~~~
pvaldes
Have they looked for Tritium release? It seems that is not picked by common
geiger counters (I could be wrong about that point)

Update: Nah, a Virus explains much better some animals falling ill and other
in the same place not (affected by the disease before and having developped
immunity).

------
elpakal
> Salmonella sp. and Campylobacter sp. has not been identified.

Salmonella was my first thought. The CDC in the US just issued a warning to
dog owners about pig ears: [https://mb.ntd.com/fda-cdc-dont-buy-or-feed-your-
dog-any-pig...](https://mb.ntd.com/fda-cdc-dont-buy-or-feed-your-dog-any-pig-
ear-dog-treats_377245.html)

~~~
pvaldes
Is a good candidate. In this case some people should be falling ill also. I
don't know if the same strands of Salmonella in dogs can affect people, but I
assume that could happen.

Update: In other source says that Salmonella has been ruled out.

------
bibinou

      > dozens
    

Statista ([https://www.statista.com/statistics/515533/dog-population-
eu...](https://www.statista.com/statistics/515533/dog-population-europe-
norway/)) :

    
    
      > The dog population in Norway was measured at approximately 500 thousand in 2017

~~~
tigershark
Dozens are dead over hundreds infected, it doesn’t matter if the whole dog
population is 1000 or 1B for the mortality rate.

------
jacquesm
That would be a pretty bad thing to jump the species barrier given the
proximity of us and our pets and the apparently high mortality. This is the
one thing I keep coming back to: we are but one small mutation away from some
very bad disease jumping from cows, pigs (very likely due to anatomical
resemblance), fowl (chickens) or pets such as cats or dogs to us humans with
disastrous consequences. And we'd be about as prepared as a sitting duck is
for acute lead poisoning.

Large numbers of cases like these in pets are always scary for that reason.
See also 'avian bird flu' for another example of this as well as this one:

[https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-05-pig-virus-
potential-t...](https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-05-pig-virus-potential-
threat-humans.html)

~~~
cowmoo728
The methods to create a global flu pandemic have already been documented.
Ferrets are great flu incubators and can serve as hosts to selectively breed
deadly, highly transmissible flu. I hope world governments are keeping a close
eye on Ron Fouchier, because if I were a Bond supervillain my plan would be to
kidnap him and force him to create a superflu.

[https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2013/09/flu-researcher-
ron-f...](https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2013/09/flu-researcher-ron-fouchier-
loses-legal-fight-over-h5n1-studies)

Note that even though he lost this legal fight, his work was still published -
this hearing was solely about whether he required an export license to publish
dual-use scientific research.

~~~
MiroF
We are not as close to bioterror as this comment implies - there are still
very considerable technical hurdles

------
kh_hk
Just to add up to the list of links to follow up, these are from the Norwegian
Veterinary Institute, where they keep posting updates:

\- (one) [https://www.vetinst.no/en/news/severe-illness-in-dogs-in-
nor...](https://www.vetinst.no/en/news/severe-illness-in-dogs-in-norway)

\- (update 11 sept) [https://www.vetinst.no/en/news/severe-illness-in-dogs-in-
nor...](https://www.vetinst.no/en/news/severe-illness-in-dogs-in-norway-
update-11-september)

------
ch33333ch
Could it be dog feed/treats from China?

~~~
jjtheblunt
[ For context, this has happened in the United States around 2008 or 2009,
with a manufacturer in China putting melamine into food to test higher for
detected protein content, falsely. I think the manufacturer was severely
prosecuted by China. ]

~~~
outworlder
> I think the manufacturer was severely prosecuted by China

I would like to think that. I would not hold my breath.

~~~
jjtheblunt
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_pet_food_recalls](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_pet_food_recalls)

------
tomtompl
How likely is it that those dogs are just being poisoned by someone?

~~~
jacobush
Not very since apparently many dogs were infected, some got very ill, some
died.

------
jmartinpetersen
The Danish Veterinary and Food Administration are quoted on speculating that
it may be parvovirus, as it seems to fit the symptoms. I have seen no further
reporting or repudiation on that possibility, though.

Or ... maybe it's lupus?

~~~
bayesian_horse
A lot can fit those symptoms, and dogs with some other infection may be
affected worse by parvovirus.

The Norwegians probably know more about the details. There are vaccines
against Parvo, so it's hard to tell if denial of vaccinations is so bad in
Norway, that there is an outbreak with hundreds of dogs...

------
shanth
I know the movie :
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/7aum_Arivu](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/7aum_Arivu)

------
chuckledog
This does sound awfully similar to the plot of
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_(1982_film)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_\(1982_film\))
—- ancient/alien parasitic organism buried in thawing Norwegian permafrost
affecting a sled dog ... also reminded me of the recent warnings of bacteria
in permafrost e.g.
[https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-540-74335-4_...](https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-540-74335-4_6)
... of course this is an idle association and apologies to all the real dog
owners whose dogs are ill from this very real disease.

------
ivanhoe
It would be really much more useful if they've bothered to mentioned what are
the early symptoms?! If a dog has bloody diarrhea of course you'll take it to
the vet...

------
jpindar
Is it only affecting dogs that are walked out in public, as opposed to those
that stay in kennels or on their owner's property?

------
dmix
Seems light on details of the incidents and timelines. Is there a better
source that explains how this all started?

~~~
kristofferR
Nobody knows what it is or where it's come from. Most of the sources are
Norwegian, but it's spread all over Norway.

This is a timeline of the news since Sept 5 (click "Vis flere"):

[https://www.nrk.no/nyheter/mystisk-
hundesykdom-1.14689833](https://www.nrk.no/nyheter/mystisk-
hundesykdom-1.14689833)

Here are more sources:

[https://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/i/0nkmk6/bianca-7-fikk-s...](https://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/i/0nkmk6/bianca-7-fikk-
symptomer-paa-alvorlig-hundesykdom-doede-i-loepet-av-24-timer)

[https://www.nrk.no/ostlandssendingen/atte-nye-tilfeller-
av-s...](https://www.nrk.no/ostlandssendingen/atte-nye-tilfeller-av-syke-
hunder-1.14701114)

[https://www.aftenposten.no/norge/i/dOPwpo/Dette-er-
de-12-for...](https://www.aftenposten.no/norge/i/dOPwpo/Dette-er-de-12-forste-
hundene-som-er-obdusert-etter-hundesykdommen)

[https://www.aftenposten.no/norge/i/kJX3ov/Vet-ikke-om-vi-
vil...](https://www.aftenposten.no/norge/i/kJX3ov/Vet-ikke-om-vi-vil-fa-svar-
pa-hva-hundene-er-blitt-syke-av)

[https://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/i/K31n1y/spania-
advarer-...](https://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/i/K31n1y/spania-advarer-
etter-hundedoedsfall-ikke-reis-til-norge)

[https://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/i/P9moz7/skrev-
oppgave-o...](https://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/i/P9moz7/skrev-oppgave-om-
hundesykdom-bakterien-alle-utbruddene-har-skjedd-om-hoesten)

~~~
dmix
Thanks, this is what I was looking for.

There wasn’t even an incident count in the alert so I was curious.

------
tigershark
All those recommendations and they are not advising to let them eat the same
food as the owner?

~~~
lvl4x
"Preliminary assessment of the responses received so far in the survey,
doesn’t show any correlation between the cases that give a clear trace to
follow in the investigation. In most cases where several dogs live in the same
animal care, only one dog has become ill."

Seems unlikely that dog food is the issue, else they would have caught it by
now. Dogs don't take well to quick changes in their diet either (they'd start
showing some of the symptoms described), and the list of foods they shouldn't
ingest is long. Recommending that people start feeding their pets human food
would probably just make the whole situation a lot worse.

~~~
tigershark
If it’s something that is happening simultaneously in all the country while
dogs living in the same animal care are not affected seems to push strongly
towards contaminated food rather than towards some mysterious non infective
disease just appearing all over the country.

~~~
kristofferR
Yeah, but it's weird that it's a combination of extremely sudden illness
(often less than 24 hours from first sign to death) and a regular stream of
new cases every day.

If it were from contaminated food you would expect it to happen more abruptly,
then taper out. No common food link has been found either.

~~~
tigershark
The extremely sudden illness seems more compatible with poisoning than with a
disease, or more precisely, I’m not aware of any disease capable of killing in
less than 24 hours from the early signs, at least in humans, but I’m not
anywhere near an expert on dog’s diseases. About the food distribution can be
that it’s affecting only some common ingredient used by different dog foods so
it will be difficult to pinpoint it. If I were in Norway with a dog I would
rather avoid the common dog food until there is more clarity on what’s going
on.

~~~
kristofferR
Yeah, the dead dogs all have the Providencia alcalifaciens bacterium:
[https://www.aftenposten.no/norge/i/MRWR00/Har-
ventet-i-13-ar...](https://www.aftenposten.no/norge/i/MRWR00/Har-
ventet-i-13-ar-pa-at-bakterien-skulle-dukke-opp)

------
crimsonalucard
I bet it's the dog food.

------
mmusson
Isn’t a mystery disease wiping out dogs (and cats) the cause for the original
Planet of the Apes?

~~~
NikkiA
It's the impetus for the domestication of apes, who later go on to rise
against us, but I'm not sure I'd elevate it to being the cause of the
uprising.

