
Developer depression: Isolation is the biggest problem (2012) - hrish2006
http://thenextweb.com/insider/2012/10/20/are-developers-depressed/#!wJyoV
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JulianRaphael
I experienced a very similar situation, resulting in a stress-induced tumor
and heavy depression. This experience has completely changed my life and I'm
incredibly happy that I got a second chance in life to live a better life.
These situations happen because people learn and focus on how to manage the
outside world but hardly anyone knows how to manage the inner world.
Furthermore, most people don't talk about the stress or their fears and
thoughts that torture them, not even with their spouses. The bad thing is that
you can easily identify the first signs of depression or burnout and counter
it with therapeutic measures, yet so many end up completely burned out.

You don't even have to pay a therapist, our minds can be trained to build
extremely powerful therapeutic algorithms to avoid these situations. After my
experience I quit my job as a business subordinate and started building a tool
to help others manage their inner world better so that they hopefully don't
end up where I did. Our approach is heavily scientific (we have two ongoing
PhD projects to investigate and test our program) and we have just started
out.

I'd be happy to connect with anyone who wants to share their experiences and
thoughts on this topic. If you feel like it, drop me a line at:
julian@appnroll.com If you are stuck in depression or a burnout and feel like
breaking down, please don't hesitate to contact me, too - sometimes you just
need to talk to someone. Hang in there!

~~~
thelettere
The idea that through "powerful therapeutic algorithms" (whatever that is)
people can wholly regulate their own emotions is dangerous and false.

We are a social species and need other people to help regulate our emotions.
We are not self-sufficient and believing otherwise feeds a dangerous fantasy
that will only lead to more suffering.

------
pfraze
One personal observation is that intense, extended development is mentally
exhausting to the point that social interactions are difficult. I plan my work
stints around my social schedule now, to make sure I'm well-rested for having
fun with people.

Posture is also very important for my sense of self. If my chest is collapsed,
I feel a subtle pain that sours my mood. If my lower back is clenched, I
slouch my shoulders, and I get anxious. Exercise helps keep up positive energy
and cast off anxiety. It also gives me time to relax tension in my body.

In my experience, both of these can factor into depression and social anxiety.
I'm much happier when I maintain a good balance.

------
mikeleeorg
If you are an engineering manager, you can see huge gains in team satisfaction
and productivity if you are cognizant of issues like this.

My suggestion is to take the time to understand each member of your team, then
create various interactions that can foster teamwork, satisfaction, etc. This
can include:

\+ Lunches or dinners - Going out to a restaurant together can give your team
a reprieve from the stresses of work, while strengthening bonds. This tends to
work best with extroverts. Dinners work best for singles and lunches work best
for people with families (who may have to go home to a spouse and kids).

\+ Movies - If there's a movie that most of your team wants to see, treat
them. This may give introverts a more comfortable setting, since not everyone
likes team lunches & dinners. I sometimes reserved a dark conference room and
played episodes of Futurama (or some other TV show my team wanted to watch)
during lunch, which worked just as well.

\+ Outings, activities - Not everyone may enjoy a particular activity, like a
hike or indoor rock climbing gym. But you can offer various activities to your
team as opportunities to get to know one another. Don't make those who cannot
or do not want to get involved feel ostracized, however. Make these optional
events.

\+ Code reviews, paired programming, tech talks, hackathons - These exercises
not only strengthen the skills of your team, but improve team bonding as well.
And chances are, all of your developers want to improve their own skills, so
any chance to do that is a good thing.

\+ One-on-ones - Sit down with each team member and have a chat with her/him.
This is not easy for every engineering manager, as it requires skills in
listening, empathy, conflict resolution, etc. The goal here is to truly
listen. If something is bothering your developer, chances are you'll be able
to pick it up here, giving you a chance to resolve it before it becomes a
major issue. I've had developers tell me they felt like these chats were
therapy sessions, though I did my best not to make it feel so clinical (in
some cases, these chats were over coffee, ping pong, a walk, etc). The point
is, listen.

There are many more that I've forgotten and I'm sure you've done (and please
do share!)

I never had a problem with attrition by employing tactics like these. And I
don't mean to imply that no one on my team had depression - I am not a
licensed therapist and make no claims that I can diagnosis this condition. My
point is just that engineering managers who actively cultivate a supportive
environment may reduce the likelihood of depression and foster greater
satisfaction and productivity.

~~~
zaphar
We used to do Starcraft lunch at work.

2 people would play a starcraft game and the rest of us would gather in a
conference room to watch the stream and provide running commentary.

We also have an in house tool that sets up lunch times between a random group
of 4 people periodically. It's a great way to meet others in the office and
socialize.

Both of these were employee provided ideas. If you empower your employees to
implement their own ideas it can have a powerful effect on office morale.

~~~
_random_
It also helps if there are no boring bring-lunch-from-home types.

~~~
gknoy
If bringing your team together is the goal, it cannot be served by labeling
those who choose to bring a lunch as "boring types". I know my feelings would
be hurt if my coworkers decided to exclude me for that reason.

How does bringing lunch from home prevent team lunches? If it's scheduled
ahead of time, it's easy to bring less. One might even be able to justify
budgeting N lunches/month out with coworkers.

Also, lunches together don't always have to be in a restaurant. Buyers can get
food to go, bringers can take theirs with them, and then you can either meet
in a conference room, at a park, etc.

~~~
marincounty
I like the way you think!

------
im3w1l
>It amazes me how often ‘how to be happy’ pieces do well on Hacker News. I
think delving into the notion that the more time we spend behind our
computers, the less fulfilled we might feel in life overall [is a question
worth asking].”

I think unhappy people procrastinate more, vote more. The average vote is not
given by the average reader, but one more depressed than average.

~~~
gcb0
Yep. That's why book selling ranks started to separate in self help and
fiction categories. Otherwise there will ever be self help on the top chats.

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mprny
> “Even introverts are happier when they are around people they like,”

Agreed. I don't mind spending time alone, but I love being around people I
like. Usually others with a common interest. (And no, it doesn't have to be
tech related. Horse people and swimmers are a lot of fun.)

Extroverts sometimes talk about themselves. A lot. Not that interesting :)

------
euphemize
Small tip for the ones working on their own and/or freelancers. Join a co-
working space/community! I did a few months ago and the difference is very
noticeable. If you're in a large-ish metro area, chances are there are some
around you.

Having lunch with other people, being able to ask around for help or feedback,
taking part in events are all small things that end up making a big
difference.

~~~
pjungwir
Here in Portland, a bunch of Ruby freelancers have started working together
out of a coffee shop on Fridays. This is a lot cheaper & more casual than a
co-working space, and it's a lot of fun. (It's also probably not a bad way to
get the occasional new project.) I also have a couple closer friends I walk
with on Monday afternoons, and that's a great way to catch up, get outside,
and talk shop/life/etc.

~~~
selimthegrim
Which coffee shop, may I ask? Not Ford Food and Drink?

~~~
pjungwir
They've moved around a bit, and it's fairly new. I attended at Sisters and
Floyd's so far; I think there were others. There was discussion on the pdxruby
list you can probably find archived, and future sessions are on Calagator.
(Looks like Caffe Vita was today.) I'd love to see you there!

------
einhverfr
I have always assumed that depression is at least in large part a _social_
illness.

Of my three children, two were born in Indonesia, and one was born in the US.
My wife says that the experience was totally different, and that post-partum
depression wasn't really an issue as much in Indonesia because she was
surrounded by friends and family for over a month after giving birth (this
culminates in a large party after 40 days which has a similar social
significance to the older tradition of "churching" and the following "gossip"
dinner in Europe). Even something which has as clear neurological strata as
PPD has a pretty heavy social component too. (Now obviously this isn't to
blame those suffering from PPD, but to note that our society to a large extent
makes the problem quite a bit worse.)

Similarly I struggled hard with depression for some time after moving to
Indonesia in large part due to the isolation it brought me. Eventually I
overcame this by overcoming the isolation.

But beyond that I wonder if developers have a couple of additional strikes
against them. I find that it is impossible for me to simultaneously think in
machine operations and socially connect. Even when I am around other people,
if I am thinking about code, that's isolating. Talking about code is not
socializing and I am not sure it can be.

Additionally coding is a sedentary activity and exercise is one thing that
also is shown to help avoid and treat depression.

I wonder to what extent we should think about structuring our lives as
developers around an extended version of the Greek ideal adding a third
component:

A healthy body, a healthy mind, and a healthy social life.

On the management side, I also wonder to what extent ensuring that outings
involve mild to moderate physical activity may help too. Lasertag, or indoor
rock climbing over movies. If there are people who can't, then looking at
finding activities they can do too.

------
hrish2006
It reminded me of this [https://xkcd.com/664/](https://xkcd.com/664/) when I
read it. The difference between what is intellectually stimulating and gives
you a sense of aesthetic pleasure and joy, and writing something that will
work correctly in IE6 is too damn huge.

~~~
benched
Programming is one of the most exciting, flow-inducing, mentally stimulating,
mathematically and logically enlightening, rewarding activities I do.
Programming is one of the most mind-numbing, soul-sucking, procrastination-
inducing, lonely, repetitive, mentally exhausting activities I do.

~~~
kelvin0
Amen to that. I also feel like there is an 'OCD' part of me that allows me to
do the soul sucking stuff, this drains me. I prefer it when the 'creative'
part of me is expressing itself, this recharges my batteries.

~~~
wcummings
Pretty sure anyone who has struggled with OCD cringes at hyperbole like this.
After you've washed your hands till they bleed, "lol I'm so OCD" gets
tiresome. Everyone has quirks, drop the special snowflake shit

------
rmcfeeley
I'm working on a project to boost awareness & strengthen resources around
mental health in the startup community.

Check out the basics at

blueperiod.org

Reach out to rob@blueperiod.org if you'd like to help out

~~~
1F427
I just want to encourage you to keep working on this project. I've been
thinking for a few months about how best to increase mental health awareness
with limited resources. I think it's a good idea to promote resources
customized for niche communities that might not be targeted by existing mental
health nonprofits. I don't really have any specific ideas at this time. But my
next step is to get an understanding of everything that is currently available
and figure out something from there (whether it be with something that already
exists or start something new).

------
jokoon
Got into a video game programming private school, sneaking into 2nd year
directly because I was good, was not accepted for the next year.

Apparently, it my fault of not trying to reach out to other people for
building that school project. I'm more of an introvert, I was already taking
anti depressant for 2 years. I'm at the opposite side of a narcissist.
Apparently it's a bad thing in society, but nobody really talk about it
either.

I was told things like "humans are a social species" and "teamwork is the most
important thing in business and IT" etc.

I doubt being an extravert type makes a good programmer. There need to be a
balance. But if you teach people programming, why not teach them teamworking
too, or just gives bonus to students for their strength without making the
teamwork aspect mandatory ?

~~~
jiggy2011
Going directly into second year is probably a bad idea from a socialisation
point of view. When you turn up in college in year one, nobody knows anybody
so people have to form peer groups from scratch, thus it's easy to make new
friends.

If you go into second year these peer groups are already established and it
becomes harder to slot yourself in.

~~~
geedy
Definitely true to a certain degree. But I also think that having the
experience of being forced into new friendships in first year gives people
more confidence to meet people later. Its a snowball effect of sorts.

------
digita88
The key thing here is - if you are friends with and working with a developer
that you know is depressed, what do you do? Do you give them space? Do you
give them articles to help them?

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aashishkoirala
I don't know about depression, but as far as stress is concerned, I think
working with and dealing with people causes a lot more stress than solo work.
That's for sure. Code doesn't have an ego or preconceived biases.

------
nraynaud
"is your facebook a lie?" It resonates strangely to me, one friend told me my
facebook statuses where really negative and that my fb friends were tired of
it. Somehow, I guess you are contextually expected to lie anyways.

~~~
benched
And I experienced something like the reverse of this, while I was on FB.
Seeing my friends being mealy-mouthed and trite continually, _because_ they
were on a public platform visible to everybody they ever met in their life,
made me involuntarily lose so much respect for them. I had to close my account
so I wouldn't see it anymore. I can _understand_ the mentality, and the desire
to be this way, because I can remember feeling that kind of pressure to be a
certain way and work on my cachet, when I was in middle school. I just have a
really hard time tolerating it now when I see it.

------
yawz
There was a related discussion a few days ago:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7244614](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7244614)

------
gcb0
OT: This page instantly kills my Android browser...

------
michaelochurch
I think the issue is more that we have a skill that powers the world, but 95%
of us are just business subordinates-- not professionals like doctors or
professors, not even unionized-- and the 5% who have good jobs at any given
time still live under the threat of an unforeseen issue (AI winter, financial
crash wiping out the quant jobs, age discrimination, "Series A crunches")
putting them back into the EnterpriseJavaDrone purgatory.

It's not "isolation". The software industry is a very depressing place. The
pay (while not great) is solidly OK, but the status is low and the job
security's abysmal.

Most software engineers have a skill that can do so much and end up having to
use it to do so little.

~~~
benched
Wow. I could not have stated better exactly how I feel about my career, and
what I perceive to be my prospects after 15 years of being 'performance review
successful' in this industry. And to those who can't resist giving unsolicited
advice like, "It's all _you_ , your choices, and your attitude!" \- I've heard
that one.

~~~
Sven7
just stay away from impressionable minds

