
Sex, Drugs and Muddy Waters - Mz
http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2017/07/sex-drugs-and-muddy-waters.html
======
Animats
_Most date rape or college campus rapes involve alcohol. But if you try to
suggest that sobriety is a good preventive measure, people get pretty wrapped
around the axle. People act like advocating sobriety is some sort of evil
impingement on a college girl 's right to have fun._

Alcohol is the elephant in the room. Read "Getting Wasted: Why College
Students Drink Too Much and Party So Hard". This is a detailed study of
college drinking, with many interviews. "Drunkworld" didn't happen by
accident. It took heavy promotion by the alcohol industry and cooperation by
college administrations. The sex issues are mostly a spillover from the booze
problems.

Now we're seeing that spill over into the business world. There are
combination bars and workspaces now. Ten years ago that would have been a
laughable concept.

~~~
microtherion
> There are combination bars and workspaces now. Ten years ago that would have
> been a laughable concept.

And 50 years ago, this would have been considered standard equipment for an
executive office, as "Mad Men" demonstrated.

------
rdtsc
When I was in college there was a flier circulated by the university
concerning getting drunk at parties which could lead to situations ranging
from regrettable but consentual sexual encounters to rape.

One interesting thing that surprised me was that the state had pretty tough
DUI laws (Driving Under the Influence). Which had some legal wording to the
effect that being drunk cannot be used as an excuse for having bad judgement
and deciding to drive and then getting any liniency because of it. The dark
side of that was that in case when a someone gets drunk at a party and then
consents to a sexual encounter, it is harder for the defense to make the case
for rape. So they basically advised people not to drink because if something
happened they might​ have a tough time in court proving it was rape.

On the same note, I always wondered why the governmental Surgeon General
warning on alcohol containers includes birth defects, driving and operating
heavy machinery but doesn't include consenting to sexual encounters which next
day might be regrettable. At least compared to "heavy machinery" it would be
just as high or higher risk for the average citizen.

------
Pica_soO
A very humane and insightful blog-post. If the internet had structures to
amplify this level-headed opinions, instead of cresting into a wall of death
between misogyny and moral-justice-warriors, it would be the better place -
the better world adjoint deserves.

------
taxicabjesus
One night I had to have a "birds and the bees talk" with one of my taxi
passengers. Previously she did not appreciate the power that women have to
choose who they want to have relationships with.

[http://www.taxiwars.org/2016/02/the-difference-between-
boys-...](http://www.taxiwars.org/2016/02/the-difference-between-boys-
girls.html)

I've given this diary as a speech several times (brother's mother-in-law,
Toastmasters's, etc). People usually chuckle - the tension between the genders
makes a lot more sense with these considerations in mind.

------
rektide
Interesting to me that someone whose tagline is "bon vivant" on their blog is
so bold about making sure business always remains strictly business, even when
it's consuming the outer ends of your hours. The mere possibility of a man and
woman having personal issues is enough to say that we can never allow intimacy
with co-workers, that alcohol is too dangerous for work environments. Maybe
that is "good" but if you are going to be spending so much life at such a big
task it doesn't sound like a good life, imo.

I want to be good at what I do & enjoy the world with fellows and fellas also
into being good. Neither work not the world are enough unto themselves.

I like the end about signalling. Merely being in some situations corresponds
heavily to a willingness and interest to go further. Sure ok. Trying to
contra-indicate though- I feel like that's what's not great. Trying to get
through to an intoxicated person isn't always as direct as it should be, and
we're all often so hampered by our want to be nice, to not displease anyone.
Making more ambient contra-indicators available- how sexually interested we
are in the world at large perhaps- could perhaps provide adequately de-
personalized broadcasting. While it's reciprocal how much we are interested
could also help those single folk wondering whether it's ok to approach.

------
meredydd
Flirting is always an exercise in plausible deniability. You do something
legitimately (or plausibly) platonic, while working out what the other person
wants. If you forbid anything that might look flirty, by definition you forbid
a bunch of legit platonic behaviour. This is not a reasonable demand. This is
why people push back so hard against such demands, using terms like "victim-
blaming".

The problem with both of these points is the same:

 _> Most date rape or college campus rapes involve alcohol. But ... People act
like advocating sobriety is some sort of evil impingement on a college girl's
right to have fun._

If your college's social life is based heavily around alcohol, then yes, this
drastically impacts your life. You are asking people (let's be clear: _women_
) to self-ostracise if they want to be safe. (Is this a healthy culture? No.
You should be able to socialise without drinking. But if you come from a
healthier culture, it's easy to miss how much you're asking. "Just say sober"
might be low-cost advice for you; not so much for the typical college kid who
wants to fit in.)

And:

 _> Regardless of your gender, if you want to keep it clear that this is a
business relationship, drinks alone in a private setting with a member of the
opposite sex is a bad policy._

Again, you're asking someone to _voluntarily abandon a form of networking_ ,
in an industry that is critically dependent on networks.

(Is this a healthy culture? Ehh...maybe? I'd be very sad if you told me I
couldn't have a drink with my workmates/friends-from-work - but that's part of
how we build our networks.)

\---

And all of this ignores that this victim didn't even do the things you're
advising against! This incident happened after a party where several others
were present. The "private setting" happened to her.

