
To Seattle Millennials, the Future Looks Scary - danso
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/19/us/seattle-millennials-economy-student-debt-politics.html
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mikestew
"Seattle, where she came after college in Utah to study musical theater"

Newsflash, Millenials: there has never been a time to my knowledge when you
tell someone you're working on a degree in "musical theater" and their
response would not be, "oh, studying to be a waiter, eh?"

"Tech, they say, means military drones, loss of privacy and cyberbullying."

Don't worry, you won't be working at any of the companies involved after your
javascript bootcamp. Chin up, tech also means accounting systems at insurance
companies. It won't be exciting work, but it'll pay better than musical
theater. (Tech also means that phone you can't quit staring at, so if you'd
like help off that high horse...)

~~~
intopieces
I'm completely baffled by this comment. I went back and re-read the article to
try to pick up on the sentiment you're criticizing, and I just can't find it.

The derision w/r/t the woman's educational choice is so trite I'm wondering if
it might be satire. Not everyone's goal in life to maximize money earned. Some
people value a certain passion over riches, and many other believe that those
with a lesser-paid passion deserve to live decent lives, not burdened with
excessive debt.

As for the 'tech' comment... it resonated well enough with me, and seemed
genuine. I didn't detect any 'high horse' as you call it.

It seems like you went into this article looking for something to criticize
instead of attempting to empathize with the situation the individuals face.

~~~
ianai
Am I the only one that found it weird that she's a programmer but studied
music? Shouldn't the field have kept her out?

~~~
ergothus
I'm curious what age range you are - When I got into the coding field in the
early 90s, almost EVERYONE came from non-tech education fields. I've had a
sysadmin with a masters in chinese philosophy. I've had coworkers with degrees
in fashion, linguistics, and of course, a few people that hadn't finished
college at all. I myself did a "make your own major" that combined Comp Sci &
Philosophy. My degree has never mattered (though some places did care that I
_had_ a degree of some sort). And I can think of only two classes I had that
ever directly contributed to coding.

For the curious, one was an algorithms class, and the other was "Group
Software Design", where we had lectures about the Waterfall method "which all
serious companies use" (it was the early 90s) and had a team that was supposed
to code a final project according to the methods taught: so, weeks of
requirements and documentation, then a quick spurt of work to actually code
it. What really happened was weeks of debating what language/libraries to use,
then with 2 weeks left one of us actually stubbed out the code, so his
language choice won, then we pulled all-nighters for those 2 weeks to code it.
The guy that skipped the coding sessions was told to document it after the
fact. It was a highly educational experience that was directly applicable to
real coding work :)

I've noticed that coders more often have CS or SE degrees now at work, and
that the education is given more attention, though I don't particularly value
it - a degree simply assures me that you've done X hours of coding, not that
you learned anything nor that what you learned is applicable. Show me anything
you've coded on your own time and it's immediately more telling. (and I've
interviewed too many college grads that have never coded anything that wasn't
for a school assignment)

~~~
ianai
I've always known it was common for programmers to come from many backgrounds.
I've even been trying to re-break into it. I have a BS in math and a lot of
training toward a master's in economics. This comment was the labor economics
in me talking and also frustration because I'm not there. I could delete the
comment or leave it as food for thought.

------
pinewurst
I totally respect that the subjects of this article are trying to retrain
themselves for well-paying careers. What's weird to me though is how many of
them, even after observing family economic difficulties, studied things that
could never result in a non-poverty life and ran up huge financial loan
burdens.

"Seattle, where she came after college in Utah to study musical theater"

"She counts the months until the tech job she hopes to get after Ada can help
pay off the $22,000 student debt she has left."

"...studied philosophy and the history of science at St. John’s College in
Annapolis, Md., has had jobs as a barista, a taxi dispatcher and a deli
worker. She has $72,000 of student debt and has never been paid an annual
wage, she said, of more than $17,000."

I'm a history and philosophy of science and technology person myself, but it's
never paid or pretended to.

~~~
shepardrtc
Millenial pop culture promoted romantic lives of being artsy and unique,
following your dreams, and trying to save the world. They were told that money
wasn't everything and they should try to live more meaningful lives. Not
terrible notions in the slightest, but not focusing on a well-paying career
has consequences, and one of them can be a life of poverty. A few years of
barely being able to pay the bills and having a lower quality of life can
change motivations.

~~~
pnathan
> Millenial pop culture promoted romantic lives of being artsy and unique,
> following your dreams, and trying to save the world.

High school guidance counselors, the music and TV shows produced by the adults
in the room, and many of our parents, thank you _very_ much.

People learn what they've been taught, and a core message to 90s children was
"follow your dreams and it'll all work out". It was considered _very_ crass to
run the numbers.

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maverick_iceman
What exactly is the point of this article? Everyone featured in this article
are living a vastly more fortunate life compared to the majority of the people
alive today.

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earthtolazlo
Quite a lot of condescension here towards people trying to make a better life
for themselves. Were you all really that smart at 18?

~~~
spc476
At 18, senior in high school I knew I wanted to go into film making or
cartooning. But I realized (even at 18) that success in either career involved
not only talent and skill, but just as much luck as well. I liked computers
and understood quite a bit of programming (having grown up during the Golden
Age of Home Computers, the 80s) and decided to get a degree in computer
science as a fall back.

So yeah, some of us were that smart at 18.

~~~
cup
Can you tell us about your family, your parents involvement in your education
and tertiary study decisions, rough socioeconomic condition etc. Just curious.

~~~
spc476
US citizen, grew up in a small town in North Carolina until 10, then moved to
South Florida. I lived in a single parent household (with Mom) and the only
involvement in my education was making sure I didn't miss the bus. She never
even asked about homework (which was good, since I never bothered doing it).
For rough socioeconomic condition I would say upper lower class (section 8
housing in North Carolina) to lower middle class (by the time I graduated high
school).

If I wanted to learn something, I was pretty much on my own. I found school to
be largely a waste of time but I had little say in attending elementary,
middle and high school. I still felt the same way by the time I was graduating
college, but I wasn't quite ready to enter the Real World and college was a
good excuse to avoid it.

I received a Pell Grant for the first semester of college, but the paper work
was insane so I ended up working my way through college. In this, I was
fortunate that cheap (as in "too easy to get") student loans had yet to flood
the market with money so tuition wasn't insane. That, and I attended a Florida
State college as a resident (cheaper than going out of state) and it was only
a few miles from home so I saved money there.

------
nickthemagicman
Why did they mention her burlesque dancing? It adds literally nothing to the
discussion.

~~~
taurath
Its a slice of life, not a technical discussion. There's photos, not
spreadsheets in the article.

------
nv-vn
I feel like this article tries to touch on way too many issues at once to make
any meaningful dialogue.

~~~
cylinder
"my income, one of the highest in the world, is not guaranteed for life!"

This Anxious in America series is questionable. The last one about the vape
lounge was widely derided even by the Times' usually sympathetic commenters.

That said, they may be reporting on Millennials anxiety but not endorsing it
as justified. Just informing us this is how they're thinking.

~~~
taurath
We've seen our parents put half their house's furniture on a credit card and
lose their 20+yr jobs 3 years before retirement from a downsize. Tech jobs
went through a huge crash once already, and with tech now so firmly entrenched
into the economy a general economical recession precipitates a tech collapse
(where's the ad money coming from if nobody has a job). If you were born in
'85, you've come of age during the first tech collapse, and then 9/11, and
then the 2007 great recession. Its burned into me to expect the economy to
take a big hit every 6-8 years.

So, maybe, even if you're making 100k a year, you probably are thinking that
buying that 2/1 lowest on the market starter home for $500k is a recipe for
disaster. But if you'd gotten in 15 years ago, you'd see 300% returns like
your parents have on that house.

~~~
jackcosgrove
> Its burned into me to expect the economy to take a big hit every 6-8 years.

Good, because that's how it usually is. The 80s and 90s were remarkable for
their economic growth and lack of recessions. The business cycle is about 6-8
years.

Our parents had to get mortgages when interest rates were 17%.

Our grandparents grew up during the great depression, and worked when marginal
tax rates were north of 50%.

Every generation has something to contend with.

~~~
ianai
It's funny how you throw that number out, 6-8 years. There is no natural
assurance within the economy that the bad times will end. The lows do not have
to bottom out. That was the lesson of 1929.

~~~
burfog
No, the lesson is to not block recovery via laws passed to satisfy the
political need to "do something, anything!".

See "Economics: Public and Private Choice" by Gwartney, Stroup, Sobel,
MacPherson. The part you want is "Lessons from the Great Depression", which is
Special Topic #6 in the 14th edition.

It's pretty damning. We responded by restricting trade, creating cartels,
destroying food, and so many other self-destructive things.

------
ianai
I think skepticism is good. people need to question the systems in place. The
US economy is not efficient and it does not provide for everyone. It actively
destroys peoples' lives for the benefits of others and holds others down.
further, rosy colored glasses lead people astray. Yes, be careful. (It's also
still better than the other governments people have tried, but that really
feels like winning a lost contest)

