
Most Vegetarians and Vegans Eventually Return to Meat - curtis
https://www.fastcompany.com/3039505/the-vast-majority-of-vegetarians-and-vegans-eventually-return-to-meat
======
NhanH
One thing worth noting is that regardless of one's personal reasons to be
vegan/ vegetarian , being 90% vegan WILL almost always be 90% effective for
said reason.

This is not to dispute anything from the article. Just a reminder that if you
sympathize or relate with any cause to reduce animal product usage, you don't
have to be "vegan" or "vegetarian", just try to reduce your consumption to the
point where it starts to inconvenient you.

~~~
schnevets
I wanted to cut meat for environmental purposes, so I've started only eating
it on holidays - turkey on Thanksgiving, fish on Christmas Eve, a
burger/barbecue on 4th of July, buffalo wings on my birthday. I don't describe
myself with the "V" word, and usually just say I "avoid eating meat".

People are usually critical when I opt for vegetarian options, and then
completely lighten up when I describe that I do eat meat. It's strange how
defensive people get about eating meat, and how quickly they lighten up just
because I eat meat 5 times a year.

~~~
falcolas
> It's strange how defensive people get about eating meat

Not so strange, when you have been the repeated recipient of either the "meat
is murder" or "I'm obviously better than you because I don't eat meat"
comments from militant vegetarians.

Basically, there's prejudice and justification on both sides of the divide,
and it's too easy to respond to the constant hate with your own hate.

~~~
btschaegg
I'm sure those militant people exist, but I've yet to encounter one.

I can speak from the other side though. After someone realizes that I don't
eat meat, I usually (as in way too often) get follow up questions about the
reasons etc. I'm not sure if this is because of attempted "small talk" or
other reasons, but after a while, I just got tired of it.

I generally try to avoid long follow-up discussions on the topic, because I
simply don't think it's worthy of attention (at least in this context).

------
fnovd
The title seems misleading to me. According to the article:

>A third-of people abandoned their animal-free diets in three months or less,
and more than half abandoned it within the first year.

Are you _really_ a vegan or vegetarian if you break in 3 months? In 1 year?
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that 1 in 5 people who attempt to go
vegan/vegetarian succeed?

I'm a vegan and I'm active in my local vegan/vegetarian community. There are
two camps: people who do it for ethical reasons and people who do it for for
health. People who do it for health usually give up and move on to whatever
fad diet becomes popular. People who subscribe to the ethics rarely quit. We
have a saying: there's no such thing as a former vegan. Just someone who tried
the diet.

~~~
DenisM
This is a text-book example of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman)

~~~
fnovd
Is it, though? I mean, I can see the similarity, but ethical veg*nism does
exist outside of the dietary practice. You don't need to subscribe to the
ethics to partake in the diet. We lack the words to distinguish between and
ethical vegan and a for-health vegan, but that doesn't mean they aren't
distinct groups.

~~~
iamatworknow
Does it matter?

What difference does it make if someone who's been a vegan for 3 months calls
themself a vegan? Are they "harming the movement" by doing so? If partaking in
the diet doesn't require you to subscribe to the ethics, as you say, then the
label should just be a label: someone who doesn't eat animal products. No time
frame or reasoning attached.

~~~
fnovd
It does matter. It's the same with Jews, for example. You can be religiously
Jewish but not ethnically, or ethnically Jewish but atheist, or you can be
both. But they remain distinct concepts.

~~~
iamatworknow
And yet you managed to convey that information with just one extra qualifying
word. Unless you consider one of them isn't _really_ a Jew, shouldn't both
share the title equally? If more information is required, use more words.

------
ahelwer
For me, an almost-always vegan who eats cheese or meat in social settings, it
was a general despair that the moral argument for veganism is so simple. It's
easy to intellectually coast in this area for a while, because all the
arguments meat-eaters present in favor of eating meat are so astonishingly and
universally dumb - we evolved to eat meat, meat gives me pleasure (ignoring
consequences of that maxim), some distinction between humans and animals which
falls apart under scrutiny or has consequences for treatment of the mentally
disabled, etc. I've seen even very intelligent people put these forward.
Converting from meat-eating to veganism carries with it a component of
acknowledging an underlying personally-applicable horror in the world which is
similar, I would say, to becoming atheist. It's thus nearly impossible to
reason with reasonable people here, simply because the psychological
consequence of losing the argument is so strong. PETA recognizes this, which
is why their videos focus on the graphic ugliness of the meat industry to
provoke an emotional reaction.

Anyway. I originally really liked the moral arguments for veganism as
forwarded by Peter Singer, which of course is very similar to his argument in
Famine, Affluence, and Morality - it's pretty much impossible to accept one
but not the other. I have more problems with the consequences of the FAM
argument - that we inexorably ought to use all our life for the benefit of
others if we profess to care for others at all. This, to me, is such an absurd
consequence as to throw the entire enterprise of morality as a chain of
material implication following from axioms (very attractive to a computer
scientist!) into doubt. Which, I've been told, casts me out into the great
despair of postmodernism where we don't have access to any meaning or oughts
at all. I'd love to talk about this with someone who knows more about it,
since my philosophical education pretty much comprises a single ethics course
in university, some existentialist literature, some SEP reading, and a whole
lot of PEL episodes.

~~~
wutbrodo
> It's thus nearly impossible to reason with reasonable people here, simply
> because the psychological consequence of losing the argument is so strong.

I'd dispute the characterization of these people as reasonable, but given how
common it is, I suppose I'm descending into pedantry a bit here. It may seem
enormously childish (and it is), but I know very few people who seem able to
acknowledge that an action of theirs may not be the optimally moral one.
Almost universally, this baseline of ethical maturity is replaced with
twisted, desperate contortionate reasoning as to why their actions are
actually in the morally superior one.

I personally still eat meat; I tried vegetarianism a few years ago but started
weightlifting shortly after, which tends to have a pretty profound effect on
my appetite and dietary needs. The difference is that I acknowledge that this
is a moral failing of mine: I'm not a morally perfect being.

~~~
dTal
I am not sure you get to claim any points for acknowledging your own moral
failing. If anything, this kind of ethical "living in sin" is even worse than
contortionist justification because you debase your own ethics, turning them
into something that can be cast aside when convenient.

You have two options - change your morals (accept and embrace that your desire
to lift weights outweighs your concern for other beings). Or change your
behaviour (stop either lifting weights or eating meat).

~~~
joveian
I think this desire to feel like you are living a morally perfect life is
strong in most people but incompatible with an honest observation of the world
from just about any ethical standpoint. There are an endless number of Very
Bad Things in the world and an endless number of things you can personally do
to improve them. Really improving how your life reflects your ethics will
necessarily involve a huge amount of failure, false starts, and half measures.
The best results possible will never get you that far on an absolute scale.

Even when a better path is fairly clear, human beings rarely make lasting
changes in behavior instantly; there tend to be a lot of details and that need
to be worked out and new movement patterns to learn. It is not clear from a
brief message on the internet what a person has or has not done to make such
changes. Even without intentionally making changes over time, you can
recognize things that other people do that are better than what you do and be
more likely to copy them or otherwise be inspired from them.

------
kinkrtyavimoodh
A major issue with a lot of vegetarian / vegan diets is that they try to
create vegetarian / vegan versions of what are fundamentally non-veg foods.
This always ends up with people finding the veg version of something just an
inferior tasting version of the 'actual' thing deprived of its primary
component (the meat) and seasoned with some moral righteousness.

Instead of this, people should try to design these dishes ground up, and look
at vegetarian cuisines around the world (Indian would be a great place to
start) for inspiration.

~~~
Neliquat
As an omnivore, nothing annoys me more than my well intentioned veggie friends
trying to serve me the vegie version of everything. It's gross to me, and it
represents what they are trying to distance yourself from. Its like christian
rock. It makes both things worse, while attempting in good faith, to celebrate
them. Just cook kickass food that tastes good and meets your needs.

Edit: just reread, and I sound dickish. I, of course, am flattered by their
attempt at accomidation. But veggie bacon is bad, and someone needs to tell
you. We still love you.

~~~
pyre
> But veggie bacon is bad

One thing to keep in mind is that many vegan substitutes can vary _greatly_ in
quality / flavour. For example, discounting all vegan cheeses because you
tried one doesn't really work because they are all using different methods to
achieve the same end, so the result (flavour, taste, texture) is different.

It's not like dairy cheese which is all basically using the same method /
ingredients (and therefore the results can be more consistently close
together, even among variations on the theme).

~~~
jbattle
I have a strong stomach but the vegan cheese I've tried brought me to the
brink of illness because it was so gross. Maybe I could have enjoyed it if it
didn't present itself as "cheese" \- like an uncanny valley effect. Cheese is
one of the main reasons I fell of the vegan wagon. Can you recommend any
cheeze that's palatable?

~~~
aplusbi
I've been vegan for half my life at this point, so take my recommendations
with a grain of salt (I have no idea what cheese tastes like any more).

That said - there are several brands of nut cheeses that I really enjoy,
whether or not they taste like actual cheese. I would recommend Dr. Cow,
Treeline, Punk Rawk Labs and Miyokos nut cheeses.

------
jplasmeier
As a personal anecdote, I was a vegetarian for ~3 years from late in high
school to junior year of college. It was definitely a valuable experience that
afforded me much perspective into my diet, the diets of others, and food in
general.

When I started eating meat again it was under a vague condition to eat "good"
meat, that is, either cooked fresh by my mother, or from a higher-end
restaurant. This eroded a bit and after a year or so I was back to eating meat
relatively unabashedly again.

A few days ago I spent my entire Saturday vomiting bile from food poisoning
($CMG is the top suspect), and now I'm back to my post-vegetarianism habits of
being careful about the meat I consume. I'm aware of probability and
statistics, so this is somewhat irrational in that sense, but I suppose my
point is that I'm grateful for the experience I had of being vegetarian and I
think everyone should try it for as long as they can.

EDIT: Oh, perhaps the most shocking part of the experience was how few people
knew what the difference between being pescetarian, vegetarian, and vegan is,
as well as dealing with all manner of assholes who couldn't fathom why anyone
would do such a thing to themselves.

EDIT2: As for health, it bears mentioning that I knew a couple people who
are/were vegetarians and had much worse diets than many non-vegetarians.
Naively substituting a chicken breast for a block of cheese is _not_ healthy!

EDIT3: I made a point of almost never asking my friends to pick somewhere more
vegetarian friendly. Almost anywhere, I could deal with. Notable exceptions
were seafood restaurants and anywhere in the South of the USA. There's only so
many onion rings one can stand!

~~~
douche
> I was a vegetarian for ~3 years from late in high school to junior year of
> college

Observationally, this seems to be a stage that many young people go through at
that time of life. At least on the surface - I've seen far too many
"vegetarians" and "vegans" wolfing down greasy pepperoni pizza, blacked out at
3AM in my college days.

~~~
ASpring
> I've seen far too many "vegetarians" and "vegans" wolfing down greasy
> pepperoni pizza, blacked out at 3AM in my college days.

Why is this still a trope? Being vegetarian or vegan does not require
perfection. Think about how absurd this standard is. If you've ever done
something unkind you are no longer a kind person. If you've ever written poor
code, you are no longer a good programmer.

This kind of thinking is a huge deterrent to people being vegan or vegetarian.
If they ever have a lapse in judgement or decision making they just give up
completely because of this line of thinking.

~~~
antisthenes
There are people in this very thread calling for perfection and calling the
vegans and vegetarians who relapse into eating meat as described in the
article as "failed".

Even you're falling into the trap of labeling people as X or Y or Z.

Why can't the goal be "eat less meat" ? If you want to quantify it, make the
goal "eat ~50% less meat" than you used to.

Alternatively, bring down the meat consumption to the level of Norway or
Switzerland or Japan, countries just as prosperous as the US, but with even
better health outcomes.

Even something as simple as "order a mostly vegetarian dish every other time
you eat out" would go a long way.

------
deepnotderp
The thing is, if you want to reduce dependence upon animal products and
increase sustainability, you can expend 20% of the effort to go 80% of the
way, and not spend another 80% of your effort to go the last 20%.

The pareto optimal curve is a real concept, and you don't need to go full
vegetarian or vegan for you and the planet to reap the benefits.

~~~
ScottBurson
Having been a semi-vegetarian for over 25 years, I agree completely. I eat
yogurt and cheese frequently, eggs or poultry a couple of times a week, and
the occasional fish; never beef or pork. It works for me.

------
charia
This article forgets to mention that the same report says that most people who
are vegetarian for 3 years or more stay vegetarian for the rest of their
lives.

The "vast majority" here are probably people who tried it and stuck around for
a couple of months before quitting. Just like any other "fad" diet.

~~~
welpwelp
I was also looking for a mention of such a statistic.

I have been vegetarian for 2+ years, occasionally cheat with sea food, but the
idea of eating animal flesh grosses me out and i don't think I'll ever turn
back.

~~~
ovulator
I've been vegetarian for 10+ years, "lapsed" for a few months after my life
was turned upside down by a series of events but quickly just went back to
vegetarianism because it was easier for me. Once you get into a routine,
you'll probably stick with it.

------
regnum
After I watched Forks Over Knives on Netflix it took me about 2 years to
become 100% plant based, but I've been doing it now for over a year and I can
guarantee you I'll never go back.

I work in an industry where I see the side effects of the Standard American
Diet, and if you saw the health effects I see you'd switch too.

Here in Austin we have several monthly potlucks based upon the Plant Pure
Nation pods idea, which makes it easier to find like minded people and new
recipes. Also, Facebook groups like McDougall Friends is great for support, if
you need it.

~~~
jp555
If emergency room doctors made laws, motorcycles would be illegal.

We're all susceptible to being deluded by our naive realism. Like how I think
anyone driving faster than me is a maniac and anyone driving slower is a
moron. The objective reality is that _everybody_ thinks that.

~~~
deegles
This study found that 70% of drivers think they're "above average":
[http://www.theaa.ie/blog/70-of-drivers-rate-themselves-as-
ab...](http://www.theaa.ie/blog/70-of-drivers-rate-themselves-as-above-
average/)

~~~
antisthenes
So 71% of the predictors are actually correct.

------
okreallywtf
I've been a vegetarian for basically my entire life although I'm not nearly as
strict as vegans, these days I have adjusted it for protein availability and
cruelty concerns. I eat probably 80% plant based but I eat eggs (farm raised
ideally, free range and then cage free by order of priority) some cheese and
some fish (though more and more I'm looking to cut that out entirely).

When anyone I know decides to try being a vegetarian they usually ask me about
it (or just tell me about it) and my observation has been that a lot of people
decide they want to be vegan and will do it for a few months before they drop
back to just being a normal vegetarian and maybe a few months of that they
drop back to just a reduced meat diet.

I try to warn people to not go from a high meat diet to vegan because a) afaik
its not good for the body and b) its much harder that way but people rarely
listen. The end result is OK in that they reduce their meat consumption but
its much easier to do if you have realistic goals. You are not going to decide
to run a marathon and just immediately do it, you need attainable goals along
the way and that is what I think a lot of people miss. That and the more
restrictive you are the harder it is socially (going out to eat, parties, etc)
although that has gotten a LOT better in the last 10 years.

------
Theodores
The vast amount of smokers who quit smoking eventually return to the
newsagents to pay lots of money for some tobacco. However there is a second
category of people that have never smoked, and are totally unlikely to do so.

Vegetarian/vegan dieting is a bit like this. There are lots of people that try
going vegan and then they only last so long at it, probably boring everyone to
death with their 'meat is murder' views.

Meanwhile, in India and plenty of other places, are those that actually are
vegetarian, having grown up that way and not indoctrinated at a young age into
the meat eating cult. For these people the logic of suddenly starting to eat
meat makes as much sense as taking up smoking, after an impressionable teenage
this does not happen.

Disclosure: yes I am vegetarian and I own a leather belt!!!

~~~
umeshunni
> in India and plenty of other places, are those that actually are vegetarian,
> having grown up that way and not indoctrinated at a young age into the meat
> eating cult

On the other hand, they are indoctrinated at a young age to not eat meat (and
to look down upon those that do).

~~~
calvinbhai
Not necessarily. There's so much variety in india wrt nutritious and tasty
vegetarian and vegan foods, indoctrinitaion is tougher. The only non Indian
cuisines that have some veggie options are probably Ethiopian and
Mediterranean. But I haven't seen many varieties of those in US.

Meat eating is expensive (comparatively) and hence it's an another great
barrier for many people to try.

I'm so pro veggie food even after consuming dairy products, chicken,eggs and
occasional beef and pork. That's primarily because I grew up in India and I
believe veggie food in India is way better than any other non meat cuisine.

~~~
armandososa
This. Eating indian food is the only time I don't miss meat. There's delicious
(authentic) meat-less Mexican food too, but it is so freaking high on carbs
that I just can't.

------
ben_w
Two hopefully interesting factoids:

1) The words "vegetarian" and "zoophile" used to be synonymous (because
literally "animal lover"); but 2) the modern group of that name (animal
fanciers) are vegetarian or vegan with _exactly_ the same frequency as the
general population, to within the margin of error of the survey.

I'm a vegetarian. You might be surprised how often this comes up when people
try to convince me to eat meat. Completely fails to convince anyone, of
course.

~~~
Pxtl
The animal lovers who _aren 't_ at least vegetarian bewilders me. There's a
woman on my FB feed who rescues unwanted guinea pigs and rabbits and fights
against horse slaughter. Loves meat. I totally can't get it, but I don't need
to start fights in my social circle.

------
tetraodonpuffer
being plant based these days is way easier and simpler than it's ever been (at
least in North America), there are so many plant-based alternative foods one
can buy in stores which makes it extremely easy to do so.

The main, major issue being plant based full time is eating out with others:
if you are plant based every single meal there will be comments and
discussions about how you eat, why you eat something vs something else, how
your interlocutor could be eating better but they don't have time/money/... to
do so and on and on.

Some former plant-based people will tell you that one of the best side-effects
of not being plant based anymore is that during means you can talk about
"something else".

This is magnified if you have to regularly eat out for work / with clients,
where you can easily be put in the situation that you have to decide if you
want to be plant based full time or plant based in private only.

To me this is the main difficulty with transitioning to a full time plant
based diet: unless your circle of friends is ok with that (even better if they
are plant based themselves) and unless your work situation is compatible with
that and unless your coworkers are ok with that, it is very likely that in the
long run you will fail due to having to decide between eating how you want,
and having an easy time in your social/work life.

In my opinion this is why health-based plant based folks stick with the diet
less, because unless you truly have a deep belief in what you are doing, it is
really easy to say "it's not worth it" and it's a lot more likely you can have
a strong belief in the ethics of being plant based than in an abstract concept
of healthy eating

------
rocky1138
The title should be changed to reflect that this is in the US only.

~~~
smnrchrds
This is very important. India probably has more vegetarians than the rest of
the world combined. If you are culturally vegetarian, born and raised in a
vegetarian household, had vegetarian meals your whole life, and surrounded by
vegetarians, there is little chance that you would start eating meat anytime
soon. However, in the US where almost everyone is non-vegetarian, it is
understandable why people who convert to vegetarianism might convert back.

------
matthewbauer
I think "US" needs to be added to title. The majority of vegetarians live in
India and Indians have been living this way for over 2000 years.

------
njharman
Being vegetarian really changed my "biology" and "mentality". After a few
years I was super sensitive to meat. Could smell it, even just broth, in food.
It would make me somewhat sick if I ate it. I think you loose enzymes needed
to break it down. Meat stopped being food to me. Was not hungry for it, did
not think mmmmm when I smelled it. A few more years and I was repulsed by site
of raw meat. When I saw chicken on bone all I could think of was muscles and
bones in my own arm and how I wouldn't eat that!

I started (and ended) being vegetarian for health reasons. Somewhere along the
way I concluded it was morally wrong to eat meat esp mammals. No one convinced
me, it just arose from mental and physical changes. I was / am kind of shocked
I feel that way.

After 12-14 years being vegetarian I started eating meat again. I still
believe it is morally wrong. I actually went to aqurium to tell fish that I
was sorry that I was going to start eating them. Guess I was resolving guilt i
felt. I struggle a lot with depression. After trying many things with no
success, I decided I needed meat. Can't be sure correlation, but health is
better now. I feel guilty eating animals, but I'm selfish enough/depression
sucks enough for me to put my health before (some of) my morals.

That's me, YMMV.

------
mnm1
I recently started eating meat after over a decade of being a vegetarian. I
simply got sick of the available selection of food and how extremely expensive
and poor it is. If you cook very little, like me, it's very likely a
vegetarian diet is less healthy simply because of the food that's available,
often processed things filled with sugar. Either that, or you're spending
serious money every day eating out with no guarantee that the food is
nutritional either. Ironically, while leaving the US increases the quality and
variety of many foods, the variety of vegetarian food available in many
countries abroad is even worse. The market simply does not serve vegetarians
well. Or perhaps, the market simply does not serve anyone who doesn't
cook/cooks little well. I think it's probably a bit of both. These types of
day to day logistical challenges of being a vegetarian are the most difficult
to overcome, IMO. If restaurants with a variety of healthy, vegetarian,
decently-priced food existed, I likely wouldn't have quit.

~~~
ralfd
Did it just sort of happen or was it a conscious decision by you? It is no
coincidence that eating rules are common in many religions, adhering to a
special diet is practically a ritual, so I wonder if it was a big deal to you.

~~~
mnm1
Oh, it was very conscious. I think the decision had been building up for some
time, however, probably subconsciously. I first went back to eating fish for
half a year (I was a pescatarian for five years before being a vegetarian) and
when that seemed ok, I decided to eat any meat. This latter decision was even
more deliberate as I had just moved out and no longer lived with someone who
cooked delicious vegetarian stuff every day. I try to limit sugar these days,
at least keeping it to one dessert a day. That was, I think, the main
motivating factor. I'm in no way low-carb, but cutting out as much sugar,
especially from non-dessert foods, has definitely been a huge win.

Morally, my views have not changed at all. In my moral framework, my own needs
always must come first. So nothing has changed morally and therefore, it
hasn't been an actual problem. I'm not saying it was totally easy and that I
didn't think a lot about it both before and after, but it has been quite
beneficial to both my mind set and waistline so accepting it has been easy.

------
pdog
The vast majority of people trying to form any new habit will revert to their
old behavior. This is human nature and has nothing to do with diet.

------
Mendenhall
Side note I think if you are going to eat meat its of value to actually kill
an animal yourself for food a few times (legally). Specially something large
like a deer etc. I found it sad and sobering but in a personal growth sort of
way. I find its helpful to grasp the reality of animals dying so you can live.
Even something like raising chickens then having to kill one can make you
think.

I enjoy meat and eat it but do so less now. Actually harvesting my own meat
sometimes keeps the sobering practice in mind and also keeps me very cognizant
of their lives etc. I dont take the practice for granted at all and I find it
helps my perspective.

Also I find I want to use every part of the animal when I do that. Keep skin
if applicable for leather etc, learn to cook the organs that you may not buy
from store. Even cook marrow and carve bones etc. I find it sort of the
respectful thing to do if I am going to kill something so I can eat.

~~~
douche
There's nothing so delicious as fresh backstrap, tenderloin and heart out of a
buck that's been fattening itself up all summer on your vegetable garden.

------
kentosi
I consider myself to be a "closet vegan" because I only buy plant-based
groceries to prepare and cook at home.

It's when I go out that I eat meat/dairy to fit into my social circles. It
sounds sad, but it's my reality: I've moved to a new city and I need friends.

I've had moments in the past when I've attempted to dive into full vegan and
failed, mostly because I (a) had no idea how to cook food in the first place,
and (b) didn't know the first thing about nutrition.

I feel like what I'm doing now is a good first step. Whether I become a full-
time vegan or not is left to be seen.

------
uptownfunk
Does this include people who grew up vegetarian? I suspect people who are
vegetarian for cultural reasons (e.g. myself) would have a much lower chance
of "returning" to Meat (don't know if I would even call it returning) than
those who initially ate meat, became vegetarians, and then went back to eating
meat. Also surprised that only 2% of Americans are vegetarian, but probably
because I've lived in California most of my life.. I also wonder what percent
of Americans eat meat 1 or more days / week, 2 days / week, etc..

------
dahart
This really ought to be at least compared to the rate people stick to other
diets. Diets are super difficult to stick to, they are a lifestyle change that
is more difficult to make than most people who start them are actually
prepared for. I say this after having not stuck to "several" diets.

After reading the article, the title feels really click-baity. The actual
national trend discussed in the article is in the direction of more meat-
eaters trying out a vegetarian diet. To summarize this as veg diets failing is
to mischaracterize the trend.

------
ChoGGi
While I'm not technically a vegetarian (chicken stock on a fairly regular
basis). I'm 35 and haven't eaten any meat/fish since I was about 12, saying a
few months to a year doesn't sound like being a vegetarian. It seems more like
trying out a vegetarian diet then anything else.

Personally I just find the thought of eating meat disgusting, Though I could
care less if anyone else around me eats it.

------
amriksohata
Vegetarian here, no plan to return to meat... ever.

Got to love the anti veg propoganda though by the food industry heavily
lobbying (and worried) about their profits.

------
anotherevan
Some of the comments about reducing meat consumption reminded me of a short
TED talk about being a Weekday Vegetarian, which is pretty self explanatory.

[https://www.ted.com/talks/graham_hill_weekday_vegetarian](https://www.ted.com/talks/graham_hill_weekday_vegetarian)

------
armandososa
My wife recently became a vegetarian (as recent as a couple months, after
years of wanting to) and it is super hard. I want to support her but it is oh
so hard. My guess is that it is easier in some other countries but in Mexico
it is super hard, specially considering we are on a low-carb diet (I'm a type
2 diabetic).

I'm eating dramatically less meat because of this, but it made me realise that
I could not ever be a vegetarian or --gasp-- a vegan. I'm not dumb, I
understand the ethical implications but I had to accept that I'm a selfish
bastard in this regard. I have no vices, I can't already eat sweets or cakes,
I don't want to give up meat too.

It's pure selfishness.

~~~
phyrex
It's actually Mexico. I've been vegetarian for 16 years and have been all over
the place and it's really been the hardest in Mexico.

------
interfixus
What's with all the -isms?

I don't eat meat. It's an ethical thing. And I really, really do not need to
box myself into some defined ideology.

------
danielmain
Even by reducing meat consumption you need to know that a poor animal had to
die just because of your taste.

------
donpdonp
when choosing when and where to eat meat, please consider the the living
conditions of the animal. Free range chickens (and their eggs) and pasture-
raised grass-fed beef are ways to vote with your dollar for cleaner water and
healthier animals.

------
adamors
Post from 2014 linking to research that is no longer available.

~~~
3131s
[https://faunalytics.org/wp-
content/uploads/2015/06/Faunalyti...](https://faunalytics.org/wp-
content/uploads/2015/06/Faunalytics_Current-Former-Vegetarians_Full-
Report.pdf)

------
mido22
former meat eater, turned vegan about 3 years ago, what other vegans fail to
you is... it's a trap, why you ask?

1\. the constant hunger 2\. need for b12 supplements 3\. oh, you enjoy
traveling the world, good luck finding vegan food in villages of Philippines,
or Bratislava. Personally, suffered in these cities among others 4\. better
start liking those salads and bland pastas and pizzas without cheese, either
that or fries in some restaurants here in Sweden

It is not a easy life, so I understand why some give up, quite surprised that
I haven't (yet!).

P.S : Bratislava does have one awesome vegan kiosk

------
timthelion
Vegetarians and vegans, unlike catholics, don't have a comunity of people who
will call them up and ask them why they haven't been attending service. Being
vegetarian and vegan is also much more involved than christianity. You can be
a serial killer and still be a christian, but you cannot be a vegan if you eat
meat once. We also lack a confessional culture in which sins can be forgiven
and stray sheep can come back to the fold. That's something we really need.
Too many people slip up once and feal that they are carnivores again.

~~~
metamet
> Too many people slip up once and feal that they are carnivores again.

Well, aren't they?

If you have a moral conviction for abstaining from meat, shouldn't that be
enough to keep you coming back to your straight and narrow?

Humans have eaten meat for so long that it's engrained into our biochemistry.
I imagine that trying to adjust to a diet that isn't based in our evolutionary
framework requires some form of personal conviction and a social structure
that reinforces it.

~~~
fredsir
> Humans have eaten meat for so long that it's engrained into our
> biochemistry. I imagine that trying to adjust to a diet that isn't based in
> our evolutionary framework requires some form of personal conviction and a
> social structure that reinforces it.

I don't believe that we have any instincts for eating meat like you suggest.
It's not like a human is even capable of ripping fur and skin apart with our
mouth, crushing bones with our teeth and tearing fresh meat off an animal and
eating it. Well, not without getting sore in the jaw, broken teeth and
probably a lot of sicknesses leading to death from the uncooked (or handled in
any way) meat. If you put a baby in front of a animal, the baby won't think of
it as food. We are not carnivores. We have simply learned to also eat meat.
There's nothing about us requiring us to eat meat as long as we can get food
from another sources.

I've been vegan for 3 years. The only hard thing about it is other peoples
comments and not as many vegan friendly restaurant, although already in 2017,
two new places have opened in my town, and it looks like it's a trend that
will continue.

~~~
cgh
There is massive anthropological and biological evidence to suggest that
animals and "stuff you pick up" (seeds and so forth) are the original human
diet.

On a personal note, I was a vegetarian and later a vegan for a decade and I am
familiar with the sort of "I feel it must have been this way" appeals to
emotion (like referencing a baby and a presumably cute little animal) of the
sort you're making. Arguments like yours are simply not supported by science.

~~~
fredsir
> There is massive anthropological and biological evidence to suggest that
> animals and "stuff you pick up" (seeds and so forth) are the original human
> diet.

I feel like you should post some links to all that evidence. As far as I'm
aware, we've been eating plants a lot longer than we've eaten animals, and the
human body also suggests that being that we look (appearance and anatomically)
much more like frugivores than carnivores.

> On a personal note, I was a vegetarian and later a vegan for a decade and I
> am familiar with the sort of "I feel it must have been this way" appeals to
> emotion (like referencing a baby and a presumably cute little animal) of the
> sort you're making. Arguments like yours are simply not supported by
> science.

It's a logical as well as scientifically agreed upon conclusion as far as I'm
aware. Humans don't have an instinct for eating animals like carnivores do. A
lion cub has the instinct, a human baby doesn't, it has to learn it. If you
have relevant science, please link it.

~~~
metamet
> I feel like you should post some links to all that evidence.

This is pretty standard anthropological knowledge. A quick google search
returned this Time article that lays it out nicely:
[http://time.com/4252373/meat-eating-veganism-
evolution/](http://time.com/4252373/meat-eating-veganism-evolution/)

> As far as I'm aware, we've been eating plants a lot longer than we've eaten
> animals

Of course we started off eating plants, and we still do to this day. But the
evolution of humans really kicked off when we started consuming meat, and even
more so when we were able to start leveraging fire to make accessing those
calories and nutrients even easier.

> Humans don't have an instinct for eating animals like carnivores do.

If you're under no selection pressure, that becomes the case--especially when
you have Oreos (which are vegan, of course) conveniently available at a super
market.

But when you're a hunter gatherer, or simply starving, you fathom ways to get
energy. Hunting has the highest ROI, and you can find endless examples of this
in the form of modern day tribes.

Hunting is ritual. It's not instinct, but it's part of what humans are.

You can choose to not partake in meat, and that's purely your choice, but to
damn it as something that unnatural is purely, scientifically wrong.

~~~
fredsir
> This is pretty standard anthropological knowledge. A quick google search
> returned this Time article that lays it out nicely:
> [http://time.com/4252373/meat-eating-veganism-
> evolution/](http://time.com/4252373/meat-eating-veganism-evolution/)

I don't believe that article contradicts anything I said.

> Of course we started off eating plants, and we still do to this day. But the
> evolution of humans really kicked off when we started consuming meat, and
> even more so when we were able to start leveraging fire to make accessing
> those calories and nutrients even easier.

Indeed, more carbs were able to go to the brain instead of other parts of our
body, which enabled the brain to develop.

> You can choose to not partake in meat, and that's purely your choice, but to
> damn it as something that unnatural is purely, scientifically wrong.

I didn't say it was unnatural. I said we have no instincts to do it. It made
sense when we needed to, so we learned to, and taught our children the ways
and so on to be better at survival. Today, we neither need to and it's also
the single biggest contributor to climate change, animal suffering and the
heart disease, cardiovascular disease, diabetes and (partly) cancer epidemic
thats the number one human killer globally.

For all the talk about how meat helped us develop our brain and become
intelligent, it seems exceedingly unintelligent that we have not yet stopped
when it's so damning to our existence.

~~~
metamet
> I don't believe that article contradicts anything I said.

You were asking for evidence of this:

> animals and "stuff you pick up" (seeds and so forth) are the original human
> diet

That article directly supports the importance of meat as a foundation to the
modern humans diet: "It was about 2.6 million years ago that meat first became
a significant part of the pre-human diet."

> Indeed, more carbs were able to go to the brain instead of other parts of
> our body, which enabled the brain to develop.

No, not just carbs. Energy and nutrition are the prerequisites to the human
brain--and saturated fats play a HUGE role in the health of mitochondria.
Without an energy and nutritionally rich diet that is both diverse in micro
and macro nutrients, the human brain wouldn't have developed.

Not to mention how carbs were rare, and how the human brain can run on both
glucose and ketones for a reason.

> Today, we neither need to and it's also the single biggest contributor to
> [...] heart disease, cardiovascular disease, diabetes and (partly) cancer
> epidemic thats the number one human killer globally.

This is just flat out wrong and based on outdated science. It's well known
that stress, inflammation and insulin resistance due to our modern primarily
processed diet are the culprits here. Blaming meat is ill informed and just
not factual.

> it seems exceedingly unintelligent that we have not yet stopped when it's so
> damning to our existence.

If we're talking factory farming, yes, I agree with you. But to blame meat for
the methods of supporting a ballooning population is not the solution.

------
Danihan
I used to be vegan, for three plus years. I can't recommend the diet.

It was extremely unhealthy for me, personally. Over a period of time I
developed allergies to both soy protein and gluten that I never had in my
early twenties, allergies that never went away after I returned to eating
meat. YMMV

From an ethical perspective too, I no longer believe the hype that diets
should be "more efficient." I believe humans are too efficient already, and
what more efficiency provides us, practically speaking, is simply more humans
and more over-population, with worse living conditions long-term for most of
those new people.

India is often touted as a very vegetarian country, but I can't believe that
sort of population density is a good thing. I'd prefer everyone eat a rather
"inefficient" diet with lots of open space for animals to graze.

~~~
fredsir
Did you try simply stopping with the soy protein and gluten consumption?

In any case, I hardly see how going back to an animal-including diet changes
anything on that front. Soy is not vegan-only, and neither is gluten. You can
easily live on a vegan diet without those things, and you can easily live on a
non-vegan diet including those things. Seems more like a weak excuse if you
ask me.

~~~
Danihan
To be clear, you think it's "easy" to live on a diet without any animal
products, and also without soy or gluten, and that I'm "weak" for not doing
so, despite other health issues I had on the diet?

This is another aspect of veganism that really turns me off, the pervasive
self-righteousness within the community at large.

Please tell me what restaurants I could visit with those dietary restrictions?
And what quick lunches / fast food I can buy on that diet, on say a 30 minute
lunch break, for instance...?

~~~
John23832
> To be clear, you think it's "easy" to live on a diet without any animal
> products, and also without soy or gluten, and that I'm "weak" for not doing
> so, despite other health issues I had on the diet? This is another aspect of
> veganism that completely turns me off, the pervasive self-righteousness
> within the community at large. Please tell me what restaurants I could visit
> with those dietary restrictions? And what quick lunches / fast food I can
> buy on that diet, on say a 30 minute lunch break, for instance...?

People don't really realize what they eat, especially when it comes to gluten
and soy. I developed a wheat allergy after college (which my doctor said was
caused by stress and working in a pizzaria full of wheat) which caused me to
have to switch to a gluten free diet. That means your prepared meal options
are massively reduced, more of your time is spend cooking (which imo is a good
thing, I'm conscious about what I eat now), and if you do eat out, take on a
"gluten-free tax".

People who go on these holier-than-though fad diets don't understand what
people who actually have dietary needs go through. There is no wiggle room for
us. If we don't follow our diets there are real and serious medical
consequences. We don't just "feel down on ourselves" for not following the
diet and the strictness with which we must follow our diets cause real
inconveniences.

~~~
sten
The parent seems to be suggesting that a vegan diet didn't work for them for
health reasons. But countered objections to this by saying that it's
difficult. (Which it is. Stupidly difficult to eat meat, gluten and soy free
in my experience) But convenience is a different argument from health. Which
is it? If the issue is convenience, I concede. If it's health there may be
room to explore other options.

Though I admit there is nothing inherently healthy about eating vegan (oreos
are vegan and I've gained weight while still being vegan while learning how to
bake) I'd argue that choosing a diet on the availability of fast food choices
is an indicator of an unhealthy decision.

~~~
John23832
> The parent seems to be suggesting that a vegan diet didn't work for them for
> health reasons. But countered objections to this by saying that it's
> difficult. (Which it is. Stupidly difficult to eat meat, gluten and soy free
> in my experience) But convenience is a different argument from health. Which
> is it? If the issue is convenience, I concede. If it's health there may be
> room to explore other options.

Why can't it be both? A diet can be both medically necessary and
inconveniencing. See my own example or a diabetic diet.

------
fredsir
To sum it up: people are weak. Who knew?

> In other words, from the advocacy group’s perspective, health can be an
> effective “foot in the door” approach to increasing the number of
> vegetarians and vegans, but often not enough to keep people animal-free for
> the long-term.

Not even their own health is a big enough factor for them to control their
lust.

> “The latest findings once again show that a message focused on reduction
> instead of elimination of animal products may be more effective to create an
> overall decline in animal product consumption,” the report says. “Advocates
> would be well advised to soften their appeals to avoid suggesting the choice
> is all or nothing.”

I wonder if those vegetarians/vegans that returned to eating animal products
returned 100%, or in a reduced manner. That's the really interesting bit
unfortunately missing from the article. If people reduce their animal products
usage with, say, 50% vs someone going vegan for a few months and then returns
to animal products with a 50% reduction, they will ultimately have had a
bigger impact than people "only" doing the reduction. Personally, all the
vegetarians/vegans I know that have gone back have done it because it was too
hard in social settings, but the experience have resulted in them reducing
their use of animal products to "rarely" or "at social occasions" or "when
it's not hard to skip on it", and that's a pretty big reduction.

~~~
Ductapemaster
As someone who grew up vegetarian, I take a bit of offense at you calling it
"lust" and that those who return are "weak". That's a very black and white
view of an issue with a whole lot of grey.

I'm one of those people you mention who went back because it was hard in
social settings. For context, I stopped being vegetarian because I wanted to
be more free to eat with my friends and family. It was incredibly hard growing
up, as I could rarely have dinner at a friends house or eat meals in Boy
Scouts. People didn't want to eat food that I cooked because there wasn't meat
in it, so no one ate at my house. Even going out to restaurants was hard.
Telling people I didn't want to go to their favorite burger joint on a road
trip is challenging when you do it all the time. I had to either bow out of
social situations and do my own thing, bring my own food, or not eat.

Going through that for my entire childhood definitely changed me. You have to
fight against the ingrained American mentality that meat always belongs at the
table. You have to make people leave their comfort zones or do extra work in
order to accommodate your needs. You have to be comfortable being "that
person" who isn't normal. It wears on you over time, and at some point it just
wasn't worth it any more.

Now, I eat meat occasionally when I go out and I cook it for special occasions
at home. Otherwise my meals are vegetarian most of the time. I enjoy meat in a
limited capacity, and I personally want to keep it that way. I wish those who
advocated for vegetarianism and veganism had some more capacity to see
consumption reduction as aligned their cause. Black and white views exist on
both sides here, and I think the solution is somewhere in the middle. Eat meat
when its special. In my opinion it tastes better and you appreciate it more!

~~~
fredsir
I don't see how any of that is relevant. If your health is not enough to get
you off something, you are as weak they come.

~~~
Ductapemaster
Just because something is healthy, doesn't mean its required. The human diet
isn't ruled by absolutes.

I see from your comment history that you are a vegan yourself, and your
behavior is exactly what turns people away from it. What's right for you isn't
right for everyone. Take your arrogance elsewhere, and learn some compassion.

~~~
fredsir
It's still doesn't change the fact that if you can't even control your lust
for the sake of your health, you are as weak as they come.

And to that extend, it's universally agreed upon by science and all mayor and
respected health organizations that a vegan diet is at least as healthy (and
quite possibly healthier) as any non-vegan diet, and that animal agriculture
is the single biggest contributor to climate change, and it's obviously better
for the animals, so objectively, it's the superior choice.

