
Indian IT workers are easy to boss around? - pcurve
Disclaimer: I&#x27;m not Indian, white, or IT worker.  But I work as a product design manager at a large company and work with various functional teams on daily basis.<p>I&#x27;ve come to a sad conclusion that one of the main reasons why managers love to outsource to companies like Accenture, Tata, and Cognizant is because their Indian consultants are easier to boss around and are far less likely to question manager&#x27;s decisions.<p>IT workers in general have higher cognitive capacity than their non-IT managers and fellow coworkers, and I have noticed that American developers (or Russian&#x2F;Ukrainian transplants from the 80s&#x2F;90s) are not afraid to question bad decisions and authorities.  This is sharp contrast to Indian workers who will follow orders without much push-backs, and those who do, are often replaced at the request of management.<p>Do you think there&#x27;s validity to this observation?  I&#x27;ve thought about other factors too, such as full-timer vs consultants and young vs old.
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aespinoza
I disagree with your conclusion. These "meat shops" are not the place for
creative talent. They are that, meat shops. We have them in Mexico as well.
You can't expect a person to use its creativity in a project where you are not
expected to contribute in a creative way. These companies are hired to do
manual work, not creative work.

It is a problem with motivation in outsourcing companies. I have met a ton of
Indian IT workers who are amazingly creative and bright, and with strong
convictions. But when they started out in an outsourcing companies, nobody
really cared about their ideas or what they thought. So motivation goes to the
ground. They'll do their job.

This problem is greatly attributed to people from India, because they have the
biggest outsourcing industry. But it happens in the U.S. as well.

This is the main reason why so many reports discourage outsourcing. It is not
that the work force is not good enough, it is just that they are not
encouraged and motivated to be creative, they are encouraged to finish the
work fast and with little salary.

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pcurve
I don't disagree with your meat shops assessment. But you have to wonder how
this creative and highly analytical professional devolved into meat shops.

Initially there was cost differential was too attractive to ignore. But over
time, H1B costs have gone up. And even though per/hour per/body cost of H1B is
still lower, anybody who've worked on IT projects many moons ago realize that
we used to get a lot more done with far fewer bodies.

There were days where you can bring in couple of amazingly talented
consultants on 1099 charging $200/hour doing miracle work. No more. Yes, the
hourly rates were ridiculous, but the total costs were lower.

So H1B is no longer just about the cost in my opinion.

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stephenr
I have seen the situation from the other side and it seems to align somewhat
with the idea of "don't disagree with the boss":

I (Australian, white male) was contracting for a telecom and my direct manager
was an Indian guy. At one point, he said something technical and I disagreed
and told him he's wrong.

He just said "ok then", turned around and went back to work. He didn't speak
to me for three days (we sat _next_ to each other) after that, even when I
asked if he had anything for me to work on (a simple no without looking at
me).

Eventually I had to call my contact at the contracting agency, who in turn
contacted the manager.

The first thing he said to me? "If you have a problem you don't talk to him,
you talk to me". The irony apparently was lost on him. The whole reason for
the silent treatment was because I dared to dispute what he said in the office
where other people (who we didn't work with directly) might hear. He admitted
I was right but said I shouldn't have called him on it "in public"

Between that and "if the CEO is in the office you should be, so he knows you
are working" the experience was not exactly great.

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victorhn
I think this is independent of culture. Being challenged by a person low on
the hierarchy so openly does look untactful on your part.

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stephenr
I don't think you understand. Or if you do, we have very different ideas about
what's important.

He was my direct manager, but we were _literally_ a team of two, working on a
project together.

He was unabashedly wrong - not slightly wrong, not a bit confused, not
misinterpreted - just flat out wrong.

When I told him, I didn't make a fuss, I didn't make a big deal, I just told
him calmly "no, that's wrong, X because Y".

Literally my only other option was to say nothing, and let the project waste
time because of his incorrect assumptions/ideas.

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sidcool
As an Indian IT worker, I say yes. We are easy to boss around. This might
arise from our inherent low confidence and our timid nature.

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manidoraisamy
I think this is largely true. Some of it is cultural (authority is generally
unquestioned e.g: politics). Some of it is due to lack of leverage. IT
services is a factory model, where anyone should be replaceable. But, if a
manager bosses around a key developer in a product company, he would be
screwed just like in any part of the world.

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MichaelCrawford
Ironic, wouldn't you agree, that Mohandas K. Gandhi kicked the British Empire
out of India without firing a shot.

I once had a coworker, and close friend who was a Brit on H1-B in the US. I
was treated like gold by the company, but he was kicked around. The reason is
that I was not afraid to leave - and I did resign later, over a stupid
decision on the part of our CEO - but if my friend left his job, he would have
to go back to England.

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pcurve
Good point. H1-B folks have very little leverage, which naturally leads to
subservient behavior, and which in turns invite more abusive behaviors from
others. I've been on calls where full time employees were yelling at H1-B
folks. They would never dare to the same to their fellow full time employees

