
Microsoft Delivers Another Broken Windows 10 Update - okket
https://www.thurrott.com/windows/windows-10/81659/microsoft-delivers-yet-another-broken-windows-10-update
======
oldmanhorton
I have updated three computers -- a Lenovo laptop, a surface book, and a
custom desktop -- all without any issues.

Its important to remember that everyone with a problem will make sure to say
something, but everyone without a problem usually moves on and doesn't talk
about it. Its extraordinarily easy to assume that everything is broken just
because only people whom it broke for are talking about it.

~~~
pdkl95
> Its extraordinarily easy to assume that everything is broken

Just like it's easy to assume that everything is fine. Both are fallacies
where personal experience is projected on everyone.

This is why it's important to have the _choice_ to use or not use automatic
updates. You cannot centrally manage the incredible complexity of all possible
PC configurations and use cases; the decision about when to install updates
needs to be made locally (which includes the option of deferring that choice
to the vendor).

~~~
kyriakos
Even if you could disable updates how would you know which will cause problems
to your particular setup?

~~~
noobermin
You act as if people should prioritize downloading security updates over
actually being able to reliably use their computer. For many people, they want
to use their machine first before worrying about security.

And as another sibling commenter mentioned, what about crunchtimes, are those
the best times to figure out what works and doesn't?

~~~
jjnoakes
If ISPs blocked internet access to compromised machines until they were clean,
as I think they should, people would care a whole lot more about keeping up to
date.

As it stands now, people don't see the problems they are causing (sending
spam, participating in botnets, etc), so of course they don't care.

But they should.

~~~
jlgaddis
I work for an ISP. I would love to be able to do this.

All that would happen, though, is that the customers would loudly complain
until either a) we turned them back on or b) they switched to another ISP.

We don't even monitor or check for such compromised machines anymore, however
(other than my periodic scans for open DNS resolvers, NTP servers, devices
with an SNMP community string of "public", and so on).

~~~
runamok
We are almost in a world with 1 Terabit ddos attacks from IoT devices. It
scares me but ISP level blocking needs to come yesterday...
[http://arstechnica.com/security/2016/09/botnet-
of-145k-camer...](http://arstechnica.com/security/2016/09/botnet-
of-145k-cameras-reportedly-deliver-internets-biggest-ddos-ever/)

------
jakub_g
In case you wanted to disable automatic updates on Win10 (and for some reason
didn't do it yet), set your WiFi connection as metered in advanced options.
This prevents from autodownloading/installing/rebooting when you just left to
make yourself a coffee.

You get notified when an update is available, so you can wait a few days and
see if there's no news on front page of HN about update being hopelessly
broken, and then you can proceed with an update. You're welcome.

~~~
unlimit
There is another way - disable windows update service. I use this and every
month or so I enable it to update.

~~~
fwn
I do this since Windows XP and it always worked. I don't know why so many were
writing that updates can't be disabled anymore.

~~~
vonmoltke
The control panel setting was removed. Disabling the service entirely is an
advanced and somewhat non-obvious (if you don't know update is a service to
begin with) solution.

------
AmVess
MS has really gone downhill over the past few years with badly designed
software and shockingly broken patches. The anniversary update set all the
permissions in my registry so it couldn't be written to, and there was no way
to fix it.

On another machine, all the network interfaces vanished with no way of
restoring them.

These are complete show stoppers on machines I use to make money. I loaded
Win8.1 on all machines and will never touch W10.

~~~
bobbyi_settv
Maybe they think they can get away with because their only competition (MacOS)
is heading in the same direction. Both OSs peaked somewhere around 2010. Since
then, MS has focussed on using their desktop OS to collect data and Apple has
been focussed on using their desktop OS to prop up their mobile OS.

~~~
givinguflac
Using both reasonably frequently, I really don't see how you think they're
moving in the same direction. MacOS still leaves the user in full control if
they wish, while Windows forces ridiculous hoops to disable things that should
be a stock setting using regedit which most users would and should never
touch. Outside of "they both have voice assistants now" I see no similarities.
And I'm certain you will _never_ see ads in MacOS as part of the OS
"features."

~~~
bobbyi_settv
I think you misread my post. In both cases, the user experience of the desktop
OS has gotten worse because all of the changes the parent company have made to
the OS have been to support their larger business objectives at the expensive
of this specific product.

In MS's case they've been focussed on data collection. In Apple's case,
they've been focused on cross-selling their mobile devices. As someone who
doesn't want MS collecting my data and has no intention of ever going back to
Apple's mobile devices, I would prefer either product as it existed circa
2010.

I'm not sure how that led you to the conclusion that I think Apple will add
ads to their OS, but that definitely isn't what I meant to imply.

~~~
Razengan
You are implying that Apple added absolutely nothing to macOS since 2010 that
wasn't useful to desktop-/laptop-only users, or that there've been glaring
omissions of functionality since 2010 which they haven't addressed or aren't
about to address, without giving any examples of either. Heck, they just
announced a new and modern filesystem! Coming next year! [1] What about
systemwide support for Wide Color? [2]

It's a free OS, it gets major updates every year and minor ones every few
months.

Even if the spotlighted features of every release (like Siri this year) aren't
exactly appealing to _you_ personally, what most people seem to overlook — odd
for a place like Hacker News — is that every release of macOS also includes
many new native APIs for developers. Not to mention subtle new accessibility
features, which most of us may hopefully never need but it's nice to know they
are there for the people who do need them.

[1] [http://arstechnica.com/apple/2016/06/a-zfs-developers-
analys...](http://arstechnica.com/apple/2016/06/a-zfs-developers-analysis-of-
the-good-and-bad-in-apples-new-apfs-file-system/)

[2] [https://webkit.org/blog/6682/improving-color-on-the-
web/](https://webkit.org/blog/6682/improving-color-on-the-web/)

~~~
bobbyi_settv
I think your post demonstrates my point. My user experience on the Mac has not
been improved by a file system that hasn't been released yet. It hasn't been
improved by developer APIs or obscure accessibility features I don't have a
use for.

Perhaps I'm in the minority and the vast majority of Mac users are having a
better experience today because they use those developer APIs and write CSS
that needs obscure colors and use that unreleased file system daily, but I
don't think that's the case.

~~~
Razengan
The APIs enable developers to make better apps for you and other users; they
are obviously not meant to be showcased as an end user feature. However, if
you have obscure requirements that aren't being met by the OS or third-
parties, you can just make your own apps, for free.

You are being adamantly hyperbolic about stagnation and "mobile-ification" but
you still haven't given any example of _how_ the "desktop OS has gotten worse
because they've been focused on cross-selling their mobile devices."

Personally I started using Macs in 2011, with Lion, after a lifetime of
Windows (and before that, DOS) and every new release since then has only made
the Mac experience better for me;

The App Store model is a boon for desktop OSes (although the current
implementation definitely needs improvement) and you can still get apps from
other sources. Natural Scrolling is amazing, and really does feel natural. I
like all alerts being grouped up in one place in the Notification Center.
Pressing F4 for the Launchpad is a quick alternative to opening the
Applications folder, and usually quicker than Spotlight. I like iMessage and
FaceTime and they don't require an iPhone or iPad. Safari always feels
snappier than Chrome. 3D/Force-Touch to preview links without opening a new
page is very handy, especially on places like Reddit and HN. The OS is still
customizable in all the ways I care about, and nicely extended by apps like
TinkerTool [1] and Path Finder [2]. ...

I really can't think of any examples where I felt macOS had gotten "worse"
than a preceding release because of features borrowed from iOS, or that Apple
had betrayed me and made me want to go back to Windows.

[1]
[https://www.bresink.com/osx/TinkerTool.html](https://www.bresink.com/osx/TinkerTool.html)

[2]
[http://www.cocoatech.com/pathfinder/](http://www.cocoatech.com/pathfinder/)

------
cdr
The Anniversary Update completely hosed the Windows install on my desktop.

It got stuck at 15% installing with the infamous spinning circle - I let it
run 8 hours at 15% just to be sure because there is _zero_ info given to you
beyond the spinning circle. Then when I rebooted the machine it got stuck
"Restoring previous version of Windows", again I gave it 8 hours. A third
reboot and it failed to boot, forcing me to spend a couple hours fiddling with
the command line tools in the recovery environment to repair the boot record.

And I still have no idea why it failed, and Google has no answers either
beyond vague suggestions like unplugging all USB devices before the install
runs.

Not looking forward to losing a day of work to it again, but not like I have a
choice.

How does Microsoft screw up Windows that badly? They've had 20 years to figure
stuff like this out.

------
jerf
Tone note: Serious question, not just kvetching.

Does anyone have a good clue as to why this update is so big and disruptive?

The feature list [1] shows "biometric security for Windows apps and Edge",
"Windows Ink" support, vaguely-specified Cortana improvements (I think that
translates to "Cortana has plugins now"), and an _Xbox_ improvement.

I'm thinking that's not really what's in there since that just doesn't seem
like a 2-3 reboot and massive disruption sort of update.

[1]:
[https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2016/03/30/windo...](https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2016/03/30/windows-10-anniversary-
update-brings-new-experiences-and-developer-opportunity/)

~~~
Rafert
Supposedly it should fix the webcam issues of the previous update:
[https://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/windowsdesktop/en-U...](https://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/windowsdesktop/en-
US/9d6a8704-764f-46df-a41c-8e9d84f7f0f3/mjpg-encoded-media-type-is-not-
available-for-usbuvc-webcameras-after-
windows-10-version-1607-os?forum=mediafoundationdevelopment#3547e093-2178-4e04-b652-82336a03aa53)

------
e40
I really think Microsoft has built themselves a house of cards. It has so many
moving parts and is so complex it's very difficult to make changes to this
system without edge-case errors. It makes me appreciate the simplicity of
design of Linux and macOS.

~~~
Klathmon
MacOS I'll buy, but a desktop Linux system feels more brittle than any windows
install ever did. Maybe that's just my lack of knowledge with the platform
outside of servers, but if you stick to the "Main" GUI screens on macOS and
Windows you are pretty foot-gun safe. On Linux this is not the case, and to me
its always very difficult to tell if a change you are about to make will open
a Pandora's box you can't close again.

~~~
ekianjo
Not sure what makes you say that about Desktop Linux. I moved away from
Windows because the Desktop experience was horrible in the first place. Linux
desktops are not perfect but you have choice, they usually have implemented
ideas earlier and better than Windows and you can bet your system is going to
feel more responsive, too.

~~~
Klathmon
Brittle is really the only way I can describe it. It's the only platform where
simply installing something has rendered the system non-booting, there are
hundreds or more of config files and often changing one will break another
system. And I fully admit this might be self-inflicted, but its been my
experience.

It's by no means a bad platform, but its not for me. I want a system where I
need to do as little as possible to configure it, an I just want it to work.
On my windows and macOS systems, I can completely wipe the machine, and be
back up and running in a few hours.

~~~
sirtaj
This doesn't sound like any linux desktop I've used in the last ten years.
Usually I pop a Mint usb in, go through the installer and come back to a
system with almost all devices configured. Then it's just a matter of putting
back my /home and there we are.

On a non-corporate Windows installation, that would just be the beginning,
where I would be hunting for chipset drivers, graphics drivers, HID drivers,
network drivers and any other devices I need, each needing separate hands-on
installation.

Thank goodness that there's Ninite available now, otherwise all the basic apps
that make up a Windows install would then still be another few hours of manual
downloading and installation. And then there's restoration of your old Users
directory, which is still a fraught process if you don't have a pretty good
understanding of windows.

~~~
blakeyrat
> On a non-corporate Windows installation, that would just be the beginning,
> where I would be hunting for chipset drivers, graphics drivers, HID drivers,
> network drivers and any other devices I need, each needing separate hands-on
> installation.

You haven't installed Windows in a decade.

~~~
sirtaj
Ten days ago, in fact, which is why I feel so strongly about this. If your
hardware had drivers included on disk, great! If not, at best you'll get
generic drivers that won't give you full hardware support.

Some devices that worked out of the box on Linux but required drivers on
windows, just off the top of my head: Bluetooth USB dongle. USB wifi module.
Logitech webcam. Focusrite audio interface. HP printer (actually this one
required firmware on Linux too, so that's a draw). XBox 360 controller
(required a driver on Windows 8.1. Maybe that's changed in the last few months
with windows 10).

~~~
blakeyrat
> Bluetooth USB dongle

I admittedly don't use Bluetooth and every time I've tried it's been a
horrible experience.

> USB wifi module.

Mine works fine, no driver download.

> Logitech webcam.

Mine works fine, no driver download.

> Focusrite audio interface.

I don't have one.

> HP printer (actually this one required firmware on Linux too, so that's a
> draw).

I haven't used a printer in probably 10 years.

> XBox 360 controller (required a driver on Windows 8.1. Maybe that's changed
> in the last few months with windows 10).

Nope. Not on 8.1. Not on 10. There may be an optional driver for it (may be--
I've never seen it), but it's certainly not required. This one I can firmly
say you're wrong about. (Unless you have like a Chinese knock-off Xbox 360
controller-- the brand-name ones work.)

I had a great experience the other day when I plugged in my ancient CanoScan
LiDE 200 scanner I bought back in the Windows 2000 days, and it worked
flawlessly in Windows 10, no drivers or software needed.

~~~
sirtaj
Well, we've established we have differing hardware and differing requirements
from our computers.

The wifi modules were a generic device with a Ralink/Mediatek chipset, and
another TP-Link branded device. I don't recall the specific webcam verson,
it's an older Quick series one that really should have worked.

> I had a great experience the other day when I plugged in my ancient CanoScan
> LiDE 200 scanner I bought back in the Windows 2000 days

In general this is a situation where Linux shines, because hardware tends to
remain supported much longer as long as there's someone willing to keep the
driver compiling. With TWAIN scanners it's a lot easier of course.

------
taspeotis
I got done in by the Anniversary Update. It didn't handle certain combinations
of SSDs and non-SSDs.

How did not testing the "SSD for OS, mechanical for data" configuration get
past QA...

[http://answers.microsoft.com/en-
us/windows/forum/windows_10-...](http://answers.microsoft.com/en-
us/windows/forum/windows_10-performance/windows-10-may-freeze-after-
installing-the/5a60d75d-120a-4502-873c-8bfec65c82d0?auth=1)

~~~
0xcde4c3db
As far as I know the bug didn't hit most systems with a SSD+HDD setup, just
ones where certain default paths were changed to point to the second drive
(which is frequently done through unsupported registry hacks).

~~~
taspeotis
I had Gears of War (from the Windows Store) on my HDD. This should be fully
supported since changing the default locations for apps is ... built into
Windows.

[http://answers.microsoft.com/en-
us/windows/forum/windows_10-...](http://answers.microsoft.com/en-
us/windows/forum/windows_10-files/cannot-change-install-location-of-apps-in-
windows/fd9efca0-1b34-45de-bed9-e9b42b24aaae)

------
analog31
I updated to Win10 on my little Bay Trail convertible thingy, which I use
mainly as a tablet for web surfing. It's been fine, but an annoying feature is
that the update apparently loaded Win10 into the recovery partition in
addition to installing it as the main OS. So, when I did a "factory restore"
after (admittedly) horribly screwing things up myself, it restored to Win10.

Of course I had been very sloppy with not creating a recovery drive, etc., so
I'm stuck with Win10, but it's just a thing to be aware of.

That's why Linux is for people like me. I get as many chances as I want to
screw things up, and recovery is just a matter of downloading an .iso and
trying again.

------
jpambrun
I had the same issue with a previous patch. The forced update resulted in 4-5
restarts, totalling about 30 minutes, to install and then uninstall the update
every two days. Needless to say, that this is a bad user experience.

In the end, I had to remove GRUB, fix the MBR with the windows CD, install the
update and reinstall GRUB I can dual boot. It sucked. It should not have
passed QA.

~~~
green7ea
I had this exact same issue for two seperate updates (they didn't like a dual
boot - same fix as yours). This is what convinced me to finally uninstall
windows.

------
ourmandave
Here's a way to schedule Win10 updates on your schedule, not theirs. It uses
the convenient and widely known Local Group Policy Editor.

[http://www.windowscentral.com/how-schedule-windows-
updates-w...](http://www.windowscentral.com/how-schedule-windows-updates-
windows-10)

It's really annoying when the update starts whenever it pleases and bogs the
system. Watching a movie or gaming? Enjoy the stutter!

------
AlexeyBrin
OK, so now every time Windows 10 decides it is time to force an update it
becomes a kind of Sci-Fi thriller ... you watch it and watch it and hope the
hero doesn't die at the end.

I know people that simply disabled the Windows Update service to avoid this
hassle, with the risk of ending up with a non secure system in the long run.

~~~
0xmohit
> it becomes a kind of Sci-Fi thriller

So Windows 10 users can now have entertainment for free. Imagine the
possibilities with Windows.

I can only wonder what it would be like.

------
kyriakos
I must be an exception, I use Windows insider builds daily for development on
2 PCs (one desktop and a laptop,a quite old one too) and other than virtualbox
breaking with some updates which is easily resolved by updating virtualbox
itself I never had any issues.

~~~
thomasrognon
I've never had any issues either. And with over 300 million computers on
Windows 10, I'd bet people with issues are the exception, not us. People that
have issues are just (rightly) vocal about it.

~~~
davesque
I also never had any issues with Windows until this update.

------
rafaelm
I've kinda liked Windows 10 but the updates have been introducing small
problems for me now.

First, some update introduced a bug for me where file Explorer will sometimes
not update the files when changed. For example, if I paste a file in a folder,
the folder view will not show the new file until I press F5 to refresh the
view. This sometimes causes Explorer yo crash.

Now, after having to download the the Anniversary update three times over my
crappy 1mbps connection, it's stuck in an endless reboot loop. Windows tells
me to reboot to finish installing I'll reboot, it gets stuck on "Configuring
update ", I have to do a hard reset and the loop starts again.

Very frustrating.

~~~
conradfr
About the Explorer bug, I've had it for years in Windows 7. It's inconvenient,
especially when coding. The (very) short workaround is to rebuild the
indexation.

I'm sad to hear it is (seemingly) still present in Windows 10.

------
wuschel
What finally scared me off MS Windows were the forced updates and the blatant
spyware.

I still run a MS OS from time to time: Windows 7, for some legacy software,
well confined in a virtual box.

Linux is an alternative the days, both for individuals and companies.

------
arbuge
The first time I installed Windows 10 on my Lenovo laptop I was left with a
file manager which gets hopelessly spinning circle stuck every few days,
requiring a reboot. About 25% of file copies also hang up for about 2 minutes
before completing, in the "Calculating" phase, even if the file in question is
just a few bytes.

So I was looking forward to this new update. Perhaps it might fix things. No
dice. It crashed during the install process. At this point I consider myself
lucky to have been able to roll things back to the old version.

~~~
f_allwein
and I consider myself lucky I managed to push back any of Microsoft's attempts
to upgrade me to Windows 10...

~~~
BoorishBears
And on the other hand Windows 10 has been updating without issue for me on my
home machines, I've only caught glimpses of any of them restarting for updates
(It schedules them for times when the PC isn't usually in use).

Overall for me the benefits of Windows 10 (Especially better Xbox controller
support, which was why I upgraded my first machine to Windows 10) have been
nice, and there's been no downside

------
kmfrk
I do some HTML-to-PDF conversion with Word every now and then, and all of a
sudden, Word now offers two different ways to convert, and I have no idea
which conforms to the former feature.

I also had a Jekyll site break, because GitHub Pages updated its github-pages
gem remotely.

I totally get the advantage of auto-updates, but it's really hard to rely on
any software to work the same way for a few years.

------
adrianlmm
Installed in two of my laptops w/o problems two days ago.

~~~
AlexeyBrin
You are confusing a fresh install, which almost always works, with upgrading a
system.

~~~
adrianlmm
The system was upgraded,it was not a fresh install.

~~~
AlexeyBrin
I guess you are lucky to have a hardware that is well supported by the OS.

~~~
adrianlmm
I suppose, both of my laptops are HP.

~~~
lucb1e
Oh yeah, HP is totally in Microsoft's circle of friends. When they violated
the EULA on Windows, Microsoft was like "oh but that's just a minor thing, we
don't mind."

~~~
JadeNB
> When they violated the EULA on Windows, Microsoft was like "oh but that's
> just a minor thing, we don't mind."

When did this happen? What was the violation?

------
anjc
Haven't had a problem with Windows, ever, since installing 8 a few years back
on multiple PCs.

~~~
davesque
Neither had I actually... until this update.

------
jkot
At this point anyone who says that Windows is easier to use than Linux, is a
troll!

