
In Zimbabwe, We Don’t Cry for Lions - zabramow
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/05/opinion/in-zimbabwe-we-dont-cry-for-lions.html
======
mjfl
It is amazing how everyone can jump on this wave of political bandwagon,
including the government in Zimbabwe, without really acknowledging the irony
that much more terrible things have happened in Zimbabwe in the past 20 years
without nearly the same outcry. Massive hyperinflation, people starving to
death, and we suddenly have tears in the West over "Cecile the lion". The
corrupt government of Zimbabwe is quick to wipe away our tears and assure us
that this will never happen again, all the while continuing to neglect their
human citizens. I can agree that big game hunting is stupid and wasteful, but
killing a lion simply isn't that big of a deal, not in the grand scheme of
things, and not when we rely every day on the deaths of millions of cattle to
provide us food. That's just cognitive dissonance. If anything, the doctor was
paying a high price for a stupid hobby, which ultimately benefits the local
people of Zimbabwe. How many people in Zimbabwe can be fed for $25,000, the
price of hunting a male lion?

~~~
vegabook
The cognitive dissonance you cite disappears completely if we accept the
uncomfortable elephant in the room: we value the remaining animals far more
than we value human life. And isn't that normal when there are 7 billion of us
and 30 000 of them?

~~~
Lawtonfogle
How many humans do there need to be before I can own one and keep it in a cage
(even if regulations require it to be a big cage)? I'm thinking of putting the
cage on display and calling it something. Maybe a yoo.

My point being, we seem to value them more in our actual interactions, but
when it comes to discussing rights and laws, we still value them less. So my
actual question is why do we have this discrepancy. We cry on the death of a
lion more than a human, yet putting another lion in a cage for our own
amusement is allowed but doing the same with a human is considered extremely
wrong.

~~~
JupiterMoon
I suspect that those that cry on the death of lion are pretty much opposed to
caging them (in anything smaller that a national park) as well.

~~~
Lawtonfogle
For those most opposed, I would agree. But I suspect that most of those
involved in this outcry are not so opposed (they may be opposed to any caging,
but they would be fine with some level of caging).

------
charlesray
>Don’t tell us what to do with our animals when you allowed your own mountain
lions to be hunted to near extinction in the eastern United States. Don’t
bemoan the clear-cutting of our forests when you turned yours into concrete
jungles.

So don't learn from our mistakes, basically?

This is among the most ignorant things I have ever read. Terrible article from
a person with a terrible mentality.

~~~
namecast
The paragraph before the one you just quoted:

"We Zimbabweans are left shaking our heads, wondering why Americans care more
about African animals than about African people."

And the paragraph directly after:

"And please, don’t offer me condolences about Cecil unless you’re also willing
to offer me condolences for villagers killed or left hungry by his brethren,
by political violence, or by hunger."

"Please don't care about the animals in my country more than you care about me
and my countrymen" is a reasonable request. I don't see anything terrible
about it. I'm not sure why you dropped the surrounding context.

~~~
dragonsh
Humans are intelligent creatures and villagers killed are a result of
encroaching the animals rightful land. There are no condolescence for those
deaths caused by one's own mistake. Get out of the animals territory and fight
for your survival with those other humans not with poor animals. There are
only 3000 tigers left in the wild if a Bengal tiger kills a villager going
inside their territory of sundar ban it's the fault of that human not tiger.
Here at least American's are being right to care about 3000 tigers or lions
instead of over 7 billion humans. This article shows the sick mentality of the
people who thinks it's alright to encroach on other animals turf since it's
easier. They are cowards not able to fight for survival with their own fellow
human. There are no surrounding context in it. It's just talking about
villagers encroaching lions rightful forest and pushing them to extinction.

~~~
maratd
> Humans are intelligent creatures and villagers killed are a result of
> encroaching the animals rightful land.

What are you going on about?

A lion will hunt where there is food for it. Even if there's a single village
in all of Zimbabwe, it will go there and take the easy meal. There's nothing
easier than eating livestock. The livestock is trapped, defenseless, and
absolutely tasty.

> There are no condolescence for those deaths caused by one's own mistake.

What mistake? Existing?

> Here at least American's are being right to care about 3000 tigers or lions
> instead of over 7 billion humans.

Can you help everyone out? Please go to Zimbabwe and feed yourself to a lion.
It will help the lion out. It will provide several days worth of sustenance.
You're a bit more bony than a cow, but I'm pretty sure the lion won't complain
too much. On top of everything, there will be one less human around! Win/win!

------
chipgap98
If people are hitting the paywall the gist of the article is that lions are
dangerous animals. People living in rural village are terrorized by lions and
it has a serious impact on their way of life. Zimbabweans have a lot of
respect for wild animals but aren't opposed to them being hunted. America once
again stirred up a social media frenzy when they don't understand the issue at
all.

~~~
toomuchtodo
I take issue with the thought of conservation only being necessary for cute,
cuddly animals. There are significant benefits of maintaining biodiversity in
the various biomes.

~~~
primroot
I agree. Especially when those "cute" animals have long ceased to have any
significant role in their ecosystem due to their reduced numbers. I think
conservation efforts should primarily focus on the ecosystem not single
species. In fact it is not uncommon for environmentalist organizations to
follow this approach, to the apparent detriment of the ability to stir up any
interest among the wider public. Biological corridors? Mangrove forests? Too
many humans take this as faceless abstract technical entities, even when their
face is more often than not also a human face.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Completely agree with your entire comment.

------
leothekim
"We Zimbabweans are left shaking our heads, wondering why Americans care more
about African animals than about African people."

That's on point.

~~~
badmadrad
I sincerely believe that people would rather humans die than animals. Its
really bizarre and should be studied. Is that people see other people as a
competition for resources? It's really fascinating the stir over the death(or
murder) of 1 animal vs death(or murder) of hundreds or even thousands of
people per day.

~~~
fredkbloggs
Objectively, lions and other apex predators do a lot of good in maintaining
species population balance in their respective ecosystems. And, objectively,
humans are extremely destructive forces, both to every ecosystem into which
they've expanded their range and to each other through excessive population
density, wars, oppression, loss of frontier, and in many other ways.

This is simply another form of ecosystem imbalance; we kill lions, we use
medicine to encourage unfit humans to survive and reproduce and intensive
agriculture to produce many times more food than could be grown using natural
methods. The effect is the same as with any other predator-prey imbalance: the
prey animal populations expand far beyond the ecosystem's carrying capacity,
leading to stress, disease, weakness, starvation, and numerous other ills
among the prey population. Eventually the prey population is reduced
dramatically as nature kills off huge numbers of unfit animals.

You're welcome to call me callous, but I choose not to cry for humans, African
or otherwise.

~~~
badmadrad
I don't think you are alone in your perspective. But I do cry for humans.
There is nothing more powerful that I know of then the human brain. The
potential for humans to do destructive things is great but so is the potential
to do incredibly positive things. I mourn that lost potential.

------
wehadfun
Honestly Zimbabwe has so many problems a lion dying is not a big issue. Hell
Zimbabwe children were being tied up and set on fire a few months ago in South
Africa[0].

[0][https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyX4aOd_2BY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyX4aOd_2BY)

~~~
jasonlotito
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_relative_privation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_relative_privation)

But you're right, it's not a big issue. There are other issues, which is why
the US does more than just have citizens post to Facebook about a lion.

[http://www.usaid.gov/zimbabwe](http://www.usaid.gov/zimbabwe)

~~~
wehadfun
Yea about that aid:

[http://www.theguardian.com/global-
development/2014/jul/15/ai...](http://www.theguardian.com/global-
development/2014/jul/15/aid-africa-west-looting-continent)

------
trhway
>Don’t tell us what to do with our animals

the animals aren't yours or anybody else's. They belong to that planet which
we just happen to share. Human race, having achieved the ability to destroy
the planet's eco-sphere, thus got a duty of steward of the eco-sphere which it
has been carrying poorly so far.

Anyway, killing big game this days is a serious mental sickness.

~~~
DamnYuppie
How is hunting a serious mental sickness? Lest you forget your ancestors were
very capable hunters, else you would not be here.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Take any group of cub scouts to the park, they see a duck, they reach for a
rock. Its built-in. We are hunters.

~~~
trhway
>Take any group of cub scouts to the park, they see a duck, they reach for a
rock.

any non-mentally ill adult present would use the situation to explain that it
isn't acceptable.

> Its built-in. We are hunters.

yea. Hannibal Lecter.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Explaining what society condones has nothing to do with what built-in impulses
Homo Sapiens possesses. What's your point?

~~~
trhway
Homo Sapiens doesn't possess those built-in impulses. Some sick members of
society imprint that it on some others (usually early in their life), and with
society putting some effort into it, that bad habit will be exterminated.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Evidence seems to contradict that Pollyanna view.

~~~
trhway
judging by your other comments, talking about evidence you probably mean your
personal experience. Well, by the same token one would expect that people
dealing with rapists would with the same validity talk about such Homo Sapiens
built-in impulse too.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Really? My experience with the general population of youth in our area is
similar in any way? This thread is off the rails.

------
caio1982
It's a pity there is so much confusion between 1) how foreigners reacted to
the incident, 2) the problem of endangered species and violated habitats and
3) the poor situation of the locals. It seems nearly impossible to have a
rational conversation about a damn lion while these three things aren't
considered separately first. Yeah, I've tried to read the article's comments,
my bad...

------
pistoriusp
I've been trying for weeks to start an honest discussion on the Internet about
a hunter's role in conservation. At almost every turn I get hit with the "he's
a poacher" stick!

Can we just forget about the dentist? He's not a poacher! Maybe he's just a
bad person?! No one really knows. But he's not a poacher.

/* If you want to see what a poacher does and if you don't want to sleep for a
few days then just ask me for a video of a live Rhino, suffering, with half
it's face chainsawed off for his horn... (Brings me half to tears to just
describe the video!) */

He's not what's important here. People are loving the animals that they care
about to death. They're so against someone killing them that they're hurting
the hunting, and in turn, the conservation industry.

One of the most beloved people on Earth, Nelson Mandela, hunted and described
the benefits that hunting had on conversation:
[http://imgur.com/a/ZJ0QK](http://imgur.com/a/ZJ0QK)

Nelson is cited for marketability, for the real numbers there are plenty of
credible sources and institutions that'll provide the same information.

------
jonknee
... Well except that Zimbabwe is trying to extradite the dentist for poaching.
The lion was in a national park that brings in significant tourism dollars for
the state, they quite literally were crying for this lion.

~~~
BinaryIdiot
> Well except that Zimbabwe is trying to extradite the dentist for poaching.

FYI the author talked about this in the article as he also mentioned their
president had a baby elephant slaughtered for his birthday.

> The lion was in a national park that brings in significant tourism dollars
> for the state, they quite literally were crying for this lion.

While I agree that it seems like the author is missing some perspective from
the park / tourism side of things he did offer a different perspective I
haven't read about. I'm sure someone from their parks service would have yet
another perspective.

Still, it's good to hear about these types of issues from other perspectives
for I fear of drowning in an echo-chamber that is American news.

~~~
chillingeffect
> their president had a baby elephant slaughtered for his birthday.

This really highlights asymmetric power relations in the issue:

It's easy to gang up online against a wealthy, white, male dentist. Mobbing
Zimbabwe's president, on the other hand...

------
lentil_soup
It is way different having to kill a lion that is making life in your village
miserable to having this foreigner come in and do it for "fun" disregarding
the laws of your country. One thing doesn't excuse the other.

Having said that, he is right on " ... don’t offer me condolences about Cecil
unless you’re also willing to offer me condolences for villagers killed ..."

~~~
Zikes
I don't think there are many people who are upset about Cecil's killing that
would not also mourn someone killed by a lion. The author's insinuation that
we don't care about something we were never given the opportunity to care
about is the worst kind of moral fallacy, and is entirely unfair.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
To be truthful, we've laughed about idiots killed by lions, when those idiots
ignored fences and signs in a zoo. So its entirely situational.

------
S_A_P
The best way to turn me off of a cause is to see a bunch of people soapboxing
on facebook/twitter. Regardless of whether or not I agree with Cecil the lion
being hunted down, the internet mob is disgusting.

------
ub
I find all these articles that try to compare and measure sympathy and emotion
as pointless. People are comparing the outpouring of grief for Cecil to apathy
towards human killings and inhuman treatment of animals in the meat industry.
A person can be severely depressed if they lose a dog, and another can show no
emotion when they lose a parent. You can't compare human emotion because it's
not always rational.

In this specific case though, I would also argue given the declining numbers
of lions, the anger is justified.

~~~
primroot
I tend to think that human emotion was not rational by definition (and by not
rational I mean uncorrelated not negatively correlated). Of course "not
rational" is not synonymous of bad or superfluous.

------
64bitbrain
I grew up in small town in eastern part of India, where Tigers were rolling on
the streets and wild elephants were more dangerous than any other animal. Just
dont piss them off, that was told to anyone new in that area. My dad use to
take me to elephant(trained off course) rides into the jungle(the real jungle)
to watch tigers and all other wild animals. I started to enjoy it more and
more. My uncle was a forest ranger and had a tiger cub, so I played with him
every weekend or whenever I get a chance to visit him. One day I came to know
a tiger was shot dead by "some guy" as kid I felt really bad, I was like "why
kill a tiger for no reason?" I was more surprised when the local people were
really sad about this. Like, they have develop some kind of affection to this
animals, no matter how deadly they can be. An unspoken bond between the people
and the wild animals. Off course the government was not going to investigate
much about it, because of local corrupt officials. Officials were more
concerned about food, jobs, education and medical facilities. Which took more
highlight than the killing a tiger, which for majority of people in that
locality was a big deal.

------
justinhj
I live near Vancouver in BC. We still have large mammal wildlife, grizzly
bears, black bears, Cougars. They are killed by park rangers or police if they
become comfortable in the human world. You can also pay to go on grizzly
hunting trips further north in the province. We have just as far to go as we
want Zimbabwe too.

But just because it's the same here, and because there are worse things there,
can't we just agree that culling these magnificent animals should be done by
officials as the grim task it is, and not by rich for recreation?

Lions that attack villagers do have to be killed sadly, but why not embrace
Eco tourism instead of trophy hunting for the ones that are not a threat?

------
musesum
Sport hunting changes lion social behavior, as per:
[http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006320710...](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006320710003459)
I don't have an Elsevier account, so only read the abstract, which states that
lions are seeking denser cover.

Some conjecture:

Do Zimbabwe villagers live in denser cover? If so, maybe sport hunting
increase the threat by forcing lions closer to villagers? That would add a bit
of irony to the situation.

------
theafrican
The frankly appalling discussion going on over at the nyt's comments section
with first world environmentalists saying the author and the rest of that
third world people should just "move to the city" without even the slightness
sign of empathy towards people who make less in a year than what many nyt
readers make in a day ironically reminds me of the attitude many far-right US
nationals have regarding immigration. Basically most of them simply ignore the
realities of the immigration process and honestly believe that people can just
walk to the nearest US embassy and request a greencard and that the reason
there are so many illegals its simply because they wont do that.

Of course even a glimpse at the US visa system shows that there is no such
option, that many visas are just temporary and tied to employment or studies
that will eventually end, and honestly the only real option left is to just
marry a US citizen, an option which is already becoming more and more
difficult. The far-right is unwilling to understand this and how if their
grandfathers in the 20th century had been faced with these strict immigration
rules they would been forced to return home and stay there when in reality
many came here unannounced and uninvited, just as illegals do today.

Back to the lion issue, the problem with this line of thinking that rejects
the idea that opinions from outside the US hold any value nor should be
considered at all is that it doesn't solves the problem. Hunting in Zimbabwe,
a dirt-poor country with a collapsed economy, its actually the only way some
people have to make a living. US environmentalists much like the far-right
don't share that problem with the other side and thus can afford the luxury of
disregarding their suffering and even ask the foreigners for further
sacrifices so they don't have to admit they were dead wrong.

------
pvaldes
No problem, you will cry for lions in the future, probably.

 _" Using the calculations of Hayward et al. (2007), biomass density of
preferred lion prey in Gonarezhou national park was calculated... the
protected area could support enough preys for between 115 and 357 lions._

 _... the 2014 census found 33 lions in the protected area._

Lions where positive only in the 5% of the points analyzed in the census.

 _For the Tuli Safari Area the scientific model predict a population of about
40 lions and the 2014 census found..._

 _zero lions_

Source: " _Surveys of lions Panthera leo in protected areas in Zimbabwe yield
disturbing results: what is driving the population collapse? "_ Groom et al.
2014.

Models also predict that the park could support a population of Hyaena of 354
animals... 2014 census found between 400-490 hyaena in the national park
instead.

This is hardly a surprise because is the same ecological rule for the whole
freaking planet earth: Mesocarnivore liberation. Same that leads to the
american coyote, and the english fox and the jackals now expanding to the west
and reconquering Europe. You are bassically destroying the big fauna in
cascade. A really expensive mistake.

> _How many people in Zimbabwe can be fed for $25,000, the price of hunting a
> male lion?_

This will depend on how many money and goats they have still after figthing
the strange new hyaenas plague. And don't forget the bovine tuberculosis also.

Ok I have one idea, If we wipped the local lion pride we could kill also those
50 new hyaenas!.

(some months later) end of the hyaena problem, hum, how this new 500 jackals
appeared?

------
skylan_q
People are coming to the defence of man-eating lions in a place where lions
eat people.

How are there 7 billion of us when we hate ourselves and each other so much?

------
mixmastamyk
Though I don't care much about the subject in general, I'm already tired of
this backlash against the backlash. :/

However yes, we can be angry about the Cecil incident. It went viral for
whatever reason, other incidents didn't. That's the nature of social media,
you'll have to get used to it. No, we don't have to "fix" Zimbabwe or the
world before being angry at one needless death, thanks.

The author's point about lions scaring villagers when he was young is
interesting yet not a justification, these lions are now in a reserve and the
species is now vulnerable, if not soon to be endangered. Of course behind the
words there is always the lingering self-serving idea that people are so much
more important than our cousins in the animal kingdom. Well, guess what at 7
billion vs. 25k lions, which population could use a little thinning?

------
arafa
I'll never forget our tour guide in Zimbabwe saying his last paycheck before
dollarization was 4 quadrillion Zimbabwean dollars. For a tour guide. So yeah,
they might have bigger problems than Cecil the Lion.

------
devy
Sure, there may have been much worse things happened in Zimbabwe than a
beloved wildlife Cecil, but the fact that this event raises awareness about
wildlife conservation is a BIG DEAL! [1]

[1]:
[http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/08/cec...](http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/08/cecil-
supporters-donations/400436/)

PS: I was wondering if Palmer's PR team paied for this NYT article.

------
vegabook
Translation: "you imperialist westerners are out of touch, soft, and
basically, anti-Africa (a stop short of 'racist'). How can you love a
dangerous creature more than all us poor Africans"?

Because there are 7 billion of us on the planet and only 30k lions left. We
have had it really good (including Zimbabwe in terms of population growth) for
150 years, yet we have decimated our kindred animals using excuses like
"conservation" or "danger". This article takes an instinct that was relevant
300 years ago and shamelessly punts it into our modern age, circumstances
having changed enormously, in order ultimately to push another agenda.

~~~
XorNot
Still not really the issue though. People care plenty for Africans. But if
he's got a new take on how we can deal with decades of government corruption
without getting a whole lot more Africans killed in the process, everyone,
everywhere, is all ears.

------
hiou
So all people in Zimbabwe do not think exactly the same? And might even have
differences of opinion? Mind blown...

Not really sure how Cecil the Lion fits into HN, oh well.

------
gadders
Finally some sanity.

------
uniformlyrandom
That is some very basic trolling. Not sure why HN crowd is biting, or why this
article is on HN at all.

------
kristjankalm
Anthropocentrism at its purest. Reminds me of someone on BBC talking about
"shark infested waters of South Africa".

------
jasonlotito
> We Zimbabweans are left shaking our heads, wondering why Americans care more
> about African animals than about African people.

[http://www.usaid.gov/zimbabwe](http://www.usaid.gov/zimbabwe)

~~~
griffinmahon
You could say though that USAID is not Americans, per se, but the American
government caring about African people, and anyway it could also be raised
that in relative terms not that much goes to foreign aid, and also that not
all of it is employed solely for humanitarian reasons.

Btw, I appreciated your Wiki link above.

~~~
jasonlotito
> You could say though that USAID is not Americans, per se, but the American
> government caring about African people,

I agree, and I thought of that before posting it, but the reality is, I assume
I'm sending aid to Africa already. I imagine most American's assume that is
the case as well. We may not know about USAID specifically, but we assume we
are sending it. So, it's not something we need to get worked up over.

Effectively, it's taken care of.

------
chasing
What's the author's point? That we should wantonly kill lions? Let's just
eradicate 'em all?

He should sound much happier, then. Because we're on our way:

[http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/extinction-
countdown/afr...](http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/extinction-
countdown/african-lions-face-extinction-by-2050-could-gain-endangered-species-
act-protection/)

------
vonnik
Most of Zimbabwe's problems are not America's fault, and quite frankly,
there's not much we can do about them. But Cecil's corpse is our fault,
because he was shot by an American dentist. People tend to care more when they
feel implicated, and it's logical to care more when you can actually do
something about it. It's easier to boycott the dentist than to hope for a coup
that ousts Mugabe.

------
dragonsh
Humans are intelligent creatures and villagers killed are a result of
encroaching the animals rightful land. There are no condolescence for those
deaths caused by one's own mistake. Get out of the animals territory and fight
for your survival with those other humans not with poor animals. There are
only 3000 tigers left in the wild if a Bengal tiger kills a villager going
inside their territory of sundar ban it's the fault of that human not tiger.
Here at least American's are being right to care about 3000 tigers or lions
instead of over 7 billion humans. This article shows the sick mentality of the
people who thinks it's alright to encroach on other animals turf since it's
easier. They are cowards not able to fight for survival with their own fellow
human. There are no surrounding context in it. It's just talking about
villagers encroaching lions rightful forest and pushing them to extinction.

~~~
Lawtonfogle
>Here at least American's are being right to care about 3000 tigers or lions
instead of over 7 billion humans.

Assuming the sale of 1 of those 7 billion could save N of those 3000, how big
would N be before you support it? If need be, you don't need to pick the 1 at
random but can select based on what ever criteria you desire.

