
Ask HN: Advice on finding an entry level job in NYC? - iansowinski
Hi!<p>Do you fellows have any smart advices for moving to NYC outside of US? What Visa is the best when I don&#x27;t have engineering degree? What to think about before applying for jobs etc.?<p>Are there any immigrants who can share their experience?<p>About me: I&#x27;m EU citizen, I have BFA diploma in graphic arts, I&#x27;m considering moving to NYC - I know that housing is very expensive and visas are hard to get. I have 2 years of professional experience front-end development.
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redwood
Realistically, it probably would be your best bet to come over as a student
and then once you're here if you are aggressively working hard on the side to
build a network and show value in various contexts, you'll be more likely to
be able to parley that into a working opportunity.

Let's be realistic, New York City is a city of opportunity where everything
imaginable is happening all of the time. But getting work sponsorship from
afar except for a very exclusive pool of ultra high-demand folks can be quite
difficult.

A piece of advice: to a native English reader, your written English is
dropping articles like "a", "an" and "the"\-- I can only imagine how
frustratingly arbitrary it must seem but these immediately make your written
word appear less ready to go. You don't want to be put in that box and
rejected from consideration out of the gate. Something to look out for.

Another angle folks will take is to get a job for a US or particularly New
York city-based company in Europe, be a go-getter impressing folks to the
extent that they'll be willing to give you what you want to keep you then you
can make the move.

~~~
mcny
I'm more frustrated by my own inability to tell the "rules" of English. I can
tell something "sounds odd" but I don't know enough grammar rules to know what
is "correct" grammar and what isn't.

For example, saying "Google are deciding to go back to China PR" sounds
completely incorrect to me. It ought to be Google IS, imo but clearly enough
people do this.

~~~
piker
"Google IS deciding to go back to China PR" is correct in American English.
The entity is singular.

~~~
justwalt
I was taught that because Google is made up of many people, it should be
treated as plural. It’s probably subjective.

~~~
jpindar
It's a US vs UK thing. In the US, a group or organization IS <something>, in
the UK, they ARE <something>.

This was particularly noticeable during the World Cup coverage.

------
lefstathiou
Our company is NYC based and has (and continues to be open to) sponsoring
people to move and work in NY. Can only speak for our perspective:

The clearest path for us is to 1) have a skill set that is relevant to us and
2) be good at it.

If you can add value to our team it’s a no brainer for us. My family
immigrated to the US and I think there is a lot to be said about someone who
is willing to drop everything they know and are comfortable with and bust
their ass to make it somewhere else. Make no mistake, this is not going to be
an easy journey for you.

From our perspective, I have observed that some of our most loyal and bought
in employees are the ones we brought over. Part of it is attitude, part of it
is work ethic, part of it is the principle of reciprocity. We also know there
is far less risk of an employee we are sponsoring to walk away and work
somewhere else for a few extra dollars.

That’s my two cents. I suspect principal decision makers will be aligned with
the above. It’s not that much extra work to sponsor someone and I think most
people will do it for the right person.

I would not do this for an untested totally entry level grad most likely.

~~~
chatmasta
> some of our most loyal and bought in employees are the ones we brought over.

...and part of it is that if you fire them they lose their visa... not to be
cynical but are you sure it’s loyalty and not fear?

(Aside: what is a “loyal” employee anyway? I’ve always hated when companies
use terms like “loyalty” or “family” because they really misconstrue the
employment relationship. It’s a business arrangement, nothing else. “Loyalty”
should not be expected and if it is, it’s an indicator that the company is
taking advantage of the employee IMO. Why can’t we just be open about the fact
that we work, first and foremost, for money? Anything else is secondary. I
wouldn’t expect an employer to show loyalty to me as an employee — they can
fire me whenever they want — so I have no interest in showing loyalty to
them.)

~~~
lefstathiou
Whether or not an employee stays with us because of fear or because they think
we are giving them an opportunity of a lifetime, is a matter of perspective.
The question that may lay at the heart of this is what drives that optimistic
vs cynical view? I would argue context.

Let me start by saying that I believe people are loyal to people, not things
(ie companies).

I believe we could agree that loyalty isnt something that reasonable people
should expect. It is earned.

I believe we could agree that loyalty is a two-way street. That it is unfair /
irrational / unreasonable that a manager should expect loyalty from its
employees without reciprocating that loyalty to them (which can be done in
many many different ways outside of comp)

While I can fire anyone on the spot and they can leave at any time they want,
I believe the reality of life, people and social creatures operating in a free
and just society are a little more complicated than that. I hate the idea of
busting my ass for someone out of loyalty for them and our cause and not being
recognized for it. There is a point at which doing that consistently migrates
from loyalty to abuse. I've been there. I choose not be that kind of manager.
There is a potential that I am, which is why I do my best to communicate
broadly my commitment to being fair, principled and rationale. Alas, there is
definitely a potential that I am making mistakes too.

Personally, I can see it in their face, tone, passion, and gratitude that the
people we sponsored are loyal and it motives me to go above and beyond for
them in moments where all reasonable people can agree I shouldnt / didnt have
to / was above and beyond the call of duty. It manifests itself in subtle
ways, like hanging around the office a little bit longer every day to couch
them. Or giving them unlimited paid vacations (which no one has ever abused),
Investing more in their development and training, or, investing in the
companies they leave to start (which is what my managers for me when I left to
start our company). Loyalty is very, very real and when it is present, it
creates an incredible bond between people. I will drop almost anything I am
doing for my team and I am confident almost everyone on the team would do the
same. In that, there is an implicit trust that this commitment to each other
will be valued and not abused. When that line is crossed, it is crossed and
loyalty is compromised.

Quick random aside: to this day, I know the name of the man who sponsored some
poor Greek kid who had a penchant for math 50 years ago to start a new life in
America. Had that person not done that, this conversation and my existence
would not have happened. I havent seen Yannis since I was a little kid and he
probably hasnt thought of me in decades. As random and weird as this sounds,
part of why I enjoy sponsoring people is that it thrills me to pay that
forward and know I could potentially have a similar impact on someone's life.
I believe that makes me loyal to him in some way. A bit irrational perhaps,
but it makes me feel good.

Rant over. Thank you for listening.

------
EnderMB
I'm very interested in this too (British - have always wanted to move to NYC).

A few years back, I sent out some speculative applications to companies in NYC
for senior-level roles, but didn't receive anything back outside of one
company that said they couldn't sponsor a visa. Some were startups, some were
larger companies, and a few agencies using the same stack as I was experienced
in.

The common route seems to be applying to work for a larger company that can
sponsor a visa. I tried this too with some companies on the Stack Overflow
jobs page, but again none of them came back to me, even when I took their
take-home tests. My uninformed guess is that visas are hard to obtain, even
more so nowadays, so that you'd need a mixture of luck and opportunity to get
that role.

~~~
redwood
Coming from the UK with language proficiency, I would recommend getting a job
in a company that will later be able to transfer you overseas, of course they
will only do so if you really impress them, and when you're first getting a
job getting your foot in the door, I wouldn't even bring up that that was a
long term aspiration. The reason it's tough to accept a net new applicant from
abroad except with those unicorn credentials, is there's that level of risk
that this net new applicant won't pan out and all of a sudden the the company
has wasted a visa sponsorship on that.

~~~
EnderMB
I live in a decent-sized UK city, but I think I'd struggle to find any roles
where the company has.

1\. Has interesting/non-soul-destroying work.

2\. Has a NYC office that shares a development department

3\. Has an open culture of relocating

It sounds like a huge risk to move to a job you probably wouldn't choose
otherwise, on the potential possibility that you might be able to move you and
your family abroad. Given your company would need to match all three
prerequisites above, you'd also probably have slim pickings unless you already
live in a major city.

------
jbob2000
Hey, no offense, but NYC has a few very large arts colleges and the city is
teeming with arts majors looking for work. If you want to immigrate there,
you'll need to really stand out from students that were hand picked from all
over the world to study arts there.

------
adamqureshi
A few start ups in NYC ( myself included) are moving to kingston , New york
(upstate). In NYC everyone is hustling. If your young and ambitious and can
sell yourself your skills, you will find a job. I don't know about the visa
stuff. Housing IS damn expensive yeah but you can live in greenpoint, Brooklyn
with roommates or move uptown ( Washington Heights) then you have jackson
Heights ( Queens) or sunnyside , Queens it's cheaper then living in money
makin manhattan if you have 0 connects. When you make friends you will want to
network with them to find an apartment or work. You will build a network of
friends and those friends who are working at companies will get you into a
job. That's how it works here. People are always moving out / changing jobs.
Companies are always hiring. The experience will be unforgettable. Nothing
like it. After some time you'll get burned from the grind and may want to
bounce somewhere else. You'll never know till you get here! and Plenty of
front end jobs. Good Lucky!

~~~
lukka5
I usually read that in NYC and California the is a LOT of job changing
constantly. But when I see a LinkedIn profile there isn't that much job
changes in the experience section. I imagine 20 jobs i.e but I usually see
more around 7 or at most 10. Is this really a reality down there? At least for
NYC?

------
chuckgreenman
One of the best pieces of advice is to not go to New York City. Everything,
from rent to groceries is at least double what you'd pay anywhere else.

If you're dead set on living in a city, Chicago and Boston are flooded with
technical growth at the moment. If budget is a big factor, consider
Cincinnati. It's smaller but growing and dirt cheap to live quite well!

~~~
misiti3780
true --- NYC is more expensive than the cities mentioned, but all of the
cities you mentioned require a car (yes I know Chicago has a train, but it's
not super convenient, the other two cities absolutely require a car).

A car requires a car payment, an insurance payment, gas, maintenance (tires,
oil, general problems). Not to mention while your sitting in traffic, you cant
work or a read a book or study math, learn a new language etc. Long car-based
commutes degrades your lifestyle. I think most people that have this
perception NYC is outrageously expensive, but they do not take into account
the expenses they endure when they live in other locations.

Groceries are not double the cost of other cities here either. If you go to
whole foods, that might be true but there are a ton of options to find fresh,
reasonably priced food.

~~~
chuckgreenman
I live in Cincinnati, have no car and my commute is less than 20 minutes a day
bicycling. In most cities you really don't need a car.

~~~
misiti3780
you are in the absolutely minority of people living in that city

------
hapless
The "normal" way to do this in the technology industry is via either an H1B or
O1 visa. You do not qualify for either one.

An H1B typically requires a specialized degree. You don't have one -- your BFA
will not qualify, especially in today's political environment.

An O1 requires you to be world-renowned in your field. Widely published, a
long history of invitations to speak, etc. That's not you, either.

That leaves you with the considerably less desirable visa options.

L1 is an intra-company transfer. It is a temporary visa that is _not_ dual-
intent -- you _cannot_ immigrate. But you can stay for several years. If you
can find a European firm that wants to send you to the United States, this is
often the easiest way to experience the U.S., at least temporarily.

F1 is a student visa. If you apply, and are accepted for a graduate program in
the United States, an F1 will allow you to stay here for several years, and
work under certain circumstances. If your graduate program is relevant to your
field of endeavor, internships and externships under your F1 can be the link
you need to an H1B.

The reason the F1 is not all that desirable is that it is very, very expensive
to be a student in the United States. You will not be permitted to work a real
job off campus to fund your tuition. You must have either very extensive
funding from your university, or independent means of your own.

------
asickness231
Well as a recent college grad, in America here's what i have to say.

Good luck. For us Americans fresh out of university it's a total crap chute.
There is practically nothing out there. Most jobs outside of cities require a
car, and if you think you can afford a car and place to live (not to mention
food and whatnot) then you will be sorely mistaken. Increasingly i personally
see people with higher end degrees from good institutions taking near minimum
wage jobs in the service or other industries. A college degree in America
means next to nothing.

With a diploma in BFA (bachelor fine arts correct?) your highest hope would be
a job as a barista or a waiter. unless you are in that .01% of everyone in the
arts field and able to somehow get a job out of that.

Your next best bet is work that is ancillary but requires a degree. you can
find a paper pushing job somewhere but it is unlikely at entry level that they
will sponsor you.

My advice if you are serious about coming to the usa is to start on a student
visa and come here for schooling. Good luck paying for that.

my other advice is why does it have to be NYC. there are other cheaper cities
that are just as nice if not nicer. NYC is quickly becoming far too overpriced
even for the richest, and with its sprawl you will spend a lot of your time
just navigating subways.

Philadelphia is a very affordable and fun city. There is also Boston, Miami,
DC and many others not on the east coast.

I really hope you do make it here and do get a job. But realistically these
are the challenges you face. I have known many people who came here on student
visas, graduated got jobs and are now leaving because of king carrots new
immigration issues. but that's just my two cents.

------
drngdds
>I know that housing is very expensive

It is, but don't have to live in the city to work in the city. It's extremely
common to live in cheaper areas near NYC and take public transportation for a
1-1.5 hour commute.

~~~
chatmasta
That’s a three hour commute round trip, and much of it will be standing in a
sweaty subway carriage with no room to even move your arms.

~~~
yazan94
How long you spend in the subway is entirely based on where you live in
relation to Manhattan and where your office in Manhattan is. If you live in
Brooklyn or Queens, you don't have many options outside of the subway. If you
live farther out in Long Island, upstate NY, CT, or NJ you would take the
train which often (but not always, it depends on which train you take) has
considerably more elbow room. And if you take a train from those places, you
can transfer to a subway and get to almost anywhere in Manhattan within 30
min.

Yes this is a long commute, but while $2k will barely cover rent of a tiny
studio with a roommate in Manhattan, $2k elsewhere can cover the rent +
utilities for a 3 bedroom apartment but with a 90 min commute each direction.

I think its fair to say that COL is inversely related to your distance to
Manhattan

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swebs
Your best bet would be to apply for a permanent immigration visa. It should be
very easy if you're from the EU. It's only difficult for people from countries
that already have a high amount of emigration such as India, China, or Mexico
since there's a per country quota.

It is NOT easy to obtain a temporary work visa like it is in many other
countries. The United States greatly prefers permanent immigration.

Aim for the highest EB visa you qualify for.

[https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/permanent-
worker...](https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/permanent-workers)

~~~
cletus
This advice is grossly incorrect. EB (Employment based) immigrant visas are
employer-sponsored apart from Eb-1A (people of extraordinary ability). And
they take years to get (EB-1A is an exception that takes less than a year
typically).

~~~
swebs
I never made the claim that they are not employer sponsored.

