
After the coup, Turkey turns against America - cronjobber
http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21702337-turkish-media-and-even-government-officials-accuse-america-being-plot-after
======
pluma
Although from an outside perspective a military coup seems completely
undemocratic the Turkish military has historically had the role of maintaining
the principles Atatürk founded the Turkish Republic on. You can think of them
as a built-in correction mechanism in case the government veers too far off
course -- they remove the government, reset everything to start and then hand
over control back to the people once the situation is stable again.

I strongly suggest reading the Wikipedia article on Kemalism (the principles
of Atatürk for the Turkish Republic):
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemalism)

Erdogan dreams of bringing Turkey back to its Ottoman glory and is willing to
exploit religion (and abolish Laicism) to do so. I don't think he staged the
failed coup himself but it is clear that he's benefited the most from it:

He told the Turkish people to go out and stop the coup, risking their lives
and knowing full well that the soldiers wouldn't massacre the civilians but
creating an opportunity to make his supporters seem like a peaceful opposition
to the "violent" military.

He spread the narrative that the coup was staged not to defend Atatürk's
principles but by a religious sect his ruling party fell out with. He used
that narrative and the failed coup to get rid of thousands of educators,
judges, officials and military officers (calling it a "purge" even).

He's basically doing what he did before: eliminating all opposition to ensure
his rise to permanent and unlimited power. Except because of the clever PR
move of risking his citizens' lives he now has public support for his
autocratic ambitions.

Atatürk created a nation that should have been an inspiration to the entire
Islamic world with a degree of secularism far outmatching that of many
Christian nations. Instead Erdogan is heading full speed back into the dark
ages of theocratic dictatorships. This is a political tragedy of disturbing
proportions and a huge loss for Europe and the Middle East.

~~~
emilsedgh
Its not just Erdogan. People of Turkey seem to be supporters of this path.
Although its very sad.

~~~
pluma
Erdogan always had strong support from Turkish expatriates. I had always heard
this explained as fundamentalists leaving Turkey because its secular laws were
more restrictive (e.g. headscarfs are banned in universities[0] because of the
strong separation of church and state) and Erdogan catering towards those
fundamentalists.

I don't know what changed in Turkey but it now seems that his support has
grown not only outside the country but also within and he seems to be hellbent
on exploiting religion to gain political support. I don't know whether he
actually holds fundamentalist views himself but he certainly knows how to use
them to his advantage.

[0]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headscarf_controversy_in_Turke...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headscarf_controversy_in_Turkey)

~~~
finid
> I don't know whether he actually holds fundamentalist views himself...

He does, actually. Google what he said about women.

~~~
pluma
You don't need to believe in religion to be a chauvinist, though.

~~~
creshal
And don't need to believe in anything to publicly support positions you think
will get you votes.

~~~
gkya
Today's Turkey is the glory of "populism".

------
denzil_correa
Here are the actions taken by Erdogan lead AKP government after the coup [0].
Day by day, I find it difficult to believe this coup was not staged.

    
    
        300 Energy Ministry employees dismissed
    
        184 Customs Ministry employees dismissed
    
        8 top-level parliamentary executives removed
    
        All Turks require extra documentation to travel outside country
    
        86 Banking Regulation and Supervision Agency (BDDK) employees dismissed
    
        51 Borsa Istanbul (national stock exchange) employees dismissed
    
        245 Sports Ministry personnel suspended
    
        All Turkish academics banned from traveling abroad
    
        140 members of the Supreme Court and 48 members of the Council of State (the highest court) got arrest warrants 4 days ago, no info on releases etc.
    
        15,200 Ministry of Education personnel fired
    
        24 news/media outlets broadcast licenses withdrawn
    
        492 state religious personnel (Diyanet) removed
    
        21,000 private teachers licenses revoked
    
        393 personnel in Ministry of Family and Social Policy dismissed
    
        257 personnel at PM's office dismissed & ID's seized
    
        Demand for all 1,577 University Deans resignation
    
        30 governors of 99 fired
    
        9000 in Interior Ministry fired
    
        180 intelligence officials (MIT, Turkey's national intelligence agency) suspended
    
        2,745 judges dismissed
    
        3,000,000 civil servants banned from going on holiday
    
        Talks of reinstating the death penalty
    
        1,500 Finance Ministry officials suspended
    
        103 generals/admirals detained for questioning
    

[0]
[https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/4tq4sd/all_turki...](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/4tq4sd/all_turkish_academics_banned_from_traveling/d5jbyy6)

~~~
jbmorgado
Why is a totally quantitative comment that is relevant to the discussion being
downvoted?

Can't see any HN posting rules that this violates. On the contrary I can very
well see its major interest to the discussion at hand.

------
vaadu
What coup? This is looking more like the entire event was staged as a pretext
for a complete takeover, similar to the Reichstag fire of 1930s Germany.

~~~
pluma
This is getting downvoted because it sounds like hyperbole, but the comparison
is quite apt.

The Reichstag fire was blamed on the communists by the nazi party to brand
them as traitors much like the coup is being blamed on the Gulen movement
(which had a fall out with the AKP, Erdogan's ruling party). All signs point
to the coup not being related to the Gulen movement at all and a lot of
Erdogan's actions post-coup have been publicly justified with allegations
about the Gulen movement that are obviously blatant lies.

Whether the coup itself was staged by Erdogan like the Reichstag fire was
staged by the nazis is debatable. I personally think it was inevitable given
the history of Turkey but it was carried out so incompetently and with little
to no support from the military leadership that it's at least possible that it
was intentionally made to happen the way it did (e.g. using agents provocateur
to trigger the coup at a time when it was doomed to fail).

I don't think the actual soldiers who carried out the coup were knowingly
working for Erdogan, them simply being "useful idiots" is far more likely.
Either way, if you ask "cui bono?" all answers point to Erdogan and the AKP.

~~~
finid
> I personally think it was inevitable given the history of Turkey but it was
> carried out so incompetently and with little to no support from the military
> leadership that it's at least possible that it was intentionally made to
> happen the way it did

It's been reported that Turkish intelligence knew about it and did nothing.

~~~
afsina
Nope. According to news, they learned it several hours ago (around 4 pm) but
information was quite limited. They did try taking preventive measures but
failed to stop the coup (You can read one coup army officials statements on
that). However, probably because of it coup started earlier than planned and
it was one of the reasons of the failure.

------
shimonamit
The U.S. stores nukes in Turkey as part of the NATO deterrence strategy.
During the coup the Turkish authorities were quick to siege the military base
supposedly hosting the nukes. From CNN:

    
    
      > Turkish authorities encircled the base, cut off the power
      > supply and temporary closed the airspace around Incirlik 
      > as they fought off the coup launched on Friday.
    

[http://edition.cnn.com/2016/07/19/politics/us-nuclear-
weapon...](http://edition.cnn.com/2016/07/19/politics/us-nuclear-weapons-
turkey-attempted-coup/index.html)

------
ghostDancer
Erdogan will push anti-american and anti-european feelings cause it's always a
good thing for dictators to look like the victims. They look like being
attacked from outside so they can purge and get the nationalist feeling up,
they are the saviors and defenders of the state and the pride. Basic
dictatorship 101

~~~
pluma
Well, so far he can point at:

* the US because of Gulen

* Europe because ... whatever

* Germany because of satire

* Russia because of border violations

* Syria because of Assad

That's quite a list. No wonder he has so much public support -- the entire
world seems out to ruin Turkey.

------
tptacek
If you skipped the article and went right to the comments, the point of the
piece is that Turkey blaming America for coups is nothing new, and that
Erdogan remains a problematic leader for the country.

------
woodpanel
Honestly, I wonder whats been taking so long for US leadership to understand
that Erdogan has never been fond of Turkey being part "the west".

According to Erdogan, "crimes against humanity" are things like "Zionism" (or
Israel) or "Turkish emmigrants integrating into [German] society" while the
Sudanese president (acutally convicted for crimes against humanity) is not,
because he's a muslim. Also the Armenian Genocide isn't one, nor the one
against the Kurds. The EU is a "christian club" which is why "Turkey should
stay out of it".

The two predecessors of his Party AKP were both outlawed and deemed
unconstitutional because of such traits like sympathizing with jihadism. Quite
an impressive CV for an "ally".

------
tim333
Turkey seems to be turning against american values too with the recent "Turkey
bans all academics from travel" announcement. It's like something out of
Stalinist Russia.

~~~
secfirstmd
I'm very pro-American in general but dislike the "American values" statement.
Which values are they?

Freedom, Rule of Law and Democracy?

or

torture in Guantanamo, invasion of Iraq based on complete BS reasons resulting
in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians, support of the Saudi
Regime, thousands of citizens dieing from stupid gun laws, probable genocide
of the original Native American population, Agent Orange, support for
apartheid during most of it's time, lack of healthcare for the poor, support
for rightwing Israeli policy, de facto not giving a crap about climate change,
mass surveillance etc etc.

~~~
joesmo
If the world was an action movie, America would definitely be one of the big
bad guys in it. It's time for Americans to realize they are not the good guys
in this story, that they haven't been the good guys since the 1940's, and that
the only idiots that think Americans are the good guys in this hypothetical
movie are stupid, ignorant Americans. The rest of us Americans are disgusted
at what is and has happened in our names and by the many vile actions of our
country.

~~~
hx87
If the world was an action movie, there would be no heroes, period.

------
olympus
For the most part, America had nothing to do with the coup attempt and had no
idea that it was about to happen. Honestly, the majority of Americans couldn't
find Turkey on a map even if you centered the map on Turkey. However, I
certainly wouldn't be surprised if a few CIA types provided assistance like
they've been known (or suspected) to do in South America and other parts of
the world. The US government clearly benefits from Turkey having a more
secular government and Erdogan is moving the government towards more Islamic
rule.

So I'm just guessing that in a few weeks a classified document will be leaked
that some portion of the US government was involved in the coup attempt and
American citizens will all be embarrassed that we can't let other sovereign
nations deal with their own business.

I hope that it doesn't hurt our relations so much that it hurts any innocent
civilians or that we restrict travel. I hear Turkey has some cool castles and
is a very interesting place to visit. It's relatively inexpensive and I'd like
to go there one day.

~~~
tim333
The coup attempt seemed shockingly incompetent for anything staged by the CIA.
Also what would be the motivation?

~~~
olympus
The motivation would be to remove Erdogan who is moving towards a "less
democratic Turkey" and replacing him with a president that is more friendly to
the US. Influencing the following election would probably happen as well.

A new president could help isolate Russia, provide more advantageous basing
agreements for the military, and in general do what the US government wants.

------
grp
I just finished reading last Chomsky book and that kind of post tastes so
differently now.

For example, that sentence is really strange:

 _From the American perspective, Turkey has never been fully committed to the
war against Islamist groups in Syria._

~~~
tomp
That _is_ a strange statement. From my perspective, America hasn't been either
(if anything, the opposite)!

~~~
grp
So I'm not the only to hallucinate? A few years ago, the goal was to make fall
Bachar by any way, no?

It's so sad that a Nobel Peace Prize has the worst foreign policy ever.

~~~
pluma
The US government stuck to the position of "Assad must go" way longer than
reasonable. Russia had warned early on that displacing Assad would mean
supporting the extremists even before ISIS/ISIL showed up in the media.

Russia had obvious strategic reasons to support Assad but even to a neutral
observer it should have been obvious supporting the rebels would be a bad idea
as soon as the Islamists showed up and the dangerous consequences of the Arab
Spring (i.e. destabilizing entire countries that were now democratically
electing radical groups) became apparent.

------
Synaesthesia
The Turkish government needs to do this because the population generally has
quite anti-US sentiments, and they are already vulnerable as the coup showed.
Continuing to publically stand with the US would be politically very dangerous
for them.

~~~
pluma
It's posturing. The US is an easy target because there's no chance in hell the
US and Turkey will go to war and Turkey is irrelevant enough to the US (and
important enough as an ally to NATO and Europe) that Erdogan can be sure there
will be no consequences. Meanwhile the US's apathy can be exploited for
publicity by Erdogan and he can put Europe in a tough spot.

The coup wasn't a big threat. Only a fraction of the military was mobilised,
all important government officials were able to flee and he was able to turn
the entire population against the military because both mosques and TV
channels spread his propaganda.

The military couldn't have followed through without creating a bloodbath that
would have turned the populace even more against them. The coup had already
failed the second Erdogan was able to escape.

~~~
ZanyProgrammer
"and important enough as an ally to NATO and Europe" I have to imagine at some
point Europe will have had enough of Erdogan.

~~~
tremon
Europe will have to tolerate Erdogan until it starts reinvesting in its own
military. Especially with the UK out of the picture, mainland Europe has very
little military capability.

~~~
usrusr
Europe has been running a pretty sizable shared military investment programme,
it's called Greece. One has to wonder how much of their crisis would be left
without that NATO-internal arms race vs Turkey (and the cheering exporters in
Germany and France who happily supplied both).

------
mtgx
The question is, will America turn against Turkey, too, or are the threats to
exclude them out of NATO just empty ones?

It will also be interesting to see if the EU will condemn this "democratic
regime" they were so quick to defend after the coup.

~~~
pluma
The president of the European Parliament followed up his "we support the
democratically elected government" tweet with another tweet condemning that
same government's actions following the failed coup, so that already happened.

I'm also not sure how realistic losing Turkey as a NATO member is. They are in
a strategic position that makes it worth to put up with most of their
nonsense.

~~~
karpodiem
They are well on their well to caliphate that will be a hotbed for anti-
western sentiment/anti-secular sentiment, so I fail to see how they are a
strategic partner.

~~~
caf
As long as they control the Dardanelles and the Bosphorus Strait their
strategic position remains very valuable.

~~~
drjesusphd
This feels like Old World thinking.

~~~
caf
I think you may be underestimating just how Old the World is.

------
dforrestwilson
And now this is happening: [https://www.rt.com/news/352148-wikileaks-turkey-
government-e...](https://www.rt.com/news/352148-wikileaks-turkey-government-
emails/)

------
bovermyer
Turkey is strategically valuable enough that I doubt much is going to change
on a macro scale. Both sides will be cranky at each other for awhile, deals
will be made, and everything will more or less go back to "normal."

It's like how no one is willing to take care of the North Korea problem
because leaving it alone is less of a headache than the alternative.

~~~
acjohnson55
What would taking care of the North Korea problem look like? Land invasion? We
did that; it ended in a stalemate, and the circumstances of that result
haven't really changed.

Turkey should be concerned about whether its strategic value still exists as
such. We could probably live without them in the post-Soviet world. They are
certainly extremely useful to have in the fold, but Erdoğan should take care
not to assume they're indispensable.

~~~
argonaut
Errr... The US was fighting China in the Korean War. And the US military was
not yet the undisputed global military superpower it is today.

A land invasion of North Korea would almost certainly be successful, the
casualties and cost is the unacceptable part.

~~~
pluma
Depends on how you define success. Officially Afghanistan and Iraq were
successes, but the messy "post-war" situation in Iraq was a major factor to
the strength of ISIS.

Modern warfare really seems to be less about the actual war and more about
post-war occupation.

~~~
argonaut
I meant actual success, obviously. North Korea is culturally homogenous, and
culturally similar to South Korea. There is no comparison to Afghanistan and
Iraq.

It also goes without saying that if America was willing to _fully_ occupy Iraq
for a few more decades, I'm completely confident Iraq would be stable - the
cost is ridiculously prohibitive, however.

------
smegel
Turkey is a very dangerous country. It has a large and powerful military, it
could probably take over half the middle East if it wanted, and big parts of
Eastern Europe. It would also like to take a bite out of Russia if Putin
didn't have thousands of nukes. Let's hope they sway back to a secular,
moderate nation.

~~~
karpodiem
'It would also like to take a bite out of Russia if Putin didn't have
thousands of nukes. Let's hope they sway back to a secular, moderate nation.'

Yeah, no. Russian weapon systems are far more advanced than the stuff Turkey
has, and they outnumber Turkey.

Their best equipment is some F-16 stuff that would be vastly overwhelmed by
the number of MiG-29/31BM's that Russia has.

~~~
codeduck
Russia has some of the best SAMs in the business. They don't need to use jets;
Turkish F-16's wouldn't last long if Russia fired up their anti-aircraft
systems and engaged.

~~~
VLM
The details that can be found on wikipedia are astounding.

Across the board Turkey has a lot of 80s era gear that's been lightly upgraded
over the years and generally the Russians have about 10x the quantity of 2000s
to 2010s era gear.

For example Turkey has 240 very theoretically active 80s era F-16 planes (how
many are not deadlined / mission capable at this instant is a mystery, half
maybe?) vs the Russian military theoretically has 1531 active 2000s and newer
era SAM launchers. I mean obviously the Russians can not send every anti-
aircraft unit they have to a skirmish with the Turks but its instructive that
if they did, they'd have roughly 10 missile launchers fighting over the chance
to fire on each target...

Its a similar situation WRT armor. Turkey has about 400 1980s era Leopard
tanks. Russia only has 2500 2000s+ era main battle tanks.

Nobody is going to be rolling into the other side's capital any time soon.

Also worth keeping in mind the Russians have some recent-ish real combat
experience but the Turks only have experience trying to genocide Kurdish
civilians.

~~~
dingaling
Turkey is still building F-16 components under license, feeding the Lockheed-
Martin supply line for many customers. I don't believe they have any problems
maintaining serviceability.

Many have already been upgraded to Block 50 and the most basic are Block 30,
all well beyond 1980s capabilities.

Avionics maintenance might be an issue but but the Israelis are quite capable
of aiding there.

Your criticisms were quite valid in the 1980s when both Turkey and Greece were
considered liabilities in terms of NATO capability but certainly not today.

------
googletazer
Turkey is a sovereign country, and its policies should be determined by
majority of its people. If, for example it decides to become another Saudi
Arabia, so be it - no amount of international meddling is going to help. I'm
sure Turks know how they want to live without the whole world whispering into
their ears.

------
imglorp
If it's true this time, it wouldn't be too surprising.

[http://foreignpolicy.com/2013/08/20/mapped-
the-7-governments...](http://foreignpolicy.com/2013/08/20/mapped-
the-7-governments-the-u-s-has-overthrown/)

------
dkural
You may find it informative to read
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Turkish_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Turkish_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat#American_involvement)

for some context.

------
venomsnake
In the last 24 hours - decapitation of the educational system (thank god, so
far figuratively), cases of book burning - video is going viral as we speak,
limitation of free travel of scientists, crackdown (even more) on media.

We are getting a dictatorship evolving in real time. If you are in the Balkans
and hope that NATO will protect you - France and UK betrayed Czechoslovakia
and Poland pre WWII and it has never been tested if US will go to war for its
NATO obligations over the smaller countries.

~~~
tremon
NATO didn't exist pre-WWII.

~~~
venomsnake
NATO has also never been really tested. We don't know if the US won't chicken
out.

------
jkot
UK has two military bases at Cyprus.

~~~
pjc50
One of which borders the Turkish zone, although there is no chance of Turkey
deciding that a war with the UK is a great idea.

------
dzmien
Could someone paste the article to a paste bin, or instruct me on how to read
the article for free? Evidently I've read too many articles on economist.com
without a subscription, and they won't let me view this one without paying for
it.

~~~
theGREENsuit
[http://pastebin.com/VwepJ966](http://pastebin.com/VwepJ966)

------
drjesusphd
I'm so tired of Turkey's shit. It's thanks to them that the only workable way
to reconstruct Iraq (a three-state solution) was impossible because they would
throw a tantrum about an independent Kurdistan.

~~~
afsina
Turkey is actually quite friendly with Iraqi Kurdistan.

~~~
VLM
This confuses the average American pretty badly. The analogy I like to use is
the UK-Ireland situation.

So the Iraqi-Kurds-wanna-be-Kurdistan are like Southern Ireland. In fact they
broke away from the main empire around the same time "about a century ago".
Turkey is like England or maybe "all UK except Ireland". The PKK is like the
IRA during the troubles. So Turkey and Kurdistan are pretty chill and they're
swinging some profitable oil deals and generally get along surprisingly well
given the demographics. Meanwhile the PKK thinks if they bomb and shoot
Britain, err, I mean Turkey, enough, then a magic wand will be waved and the
ethnic minority Kurds in Turkey will secede and join Kurdistan. Which is about
as likely to be successful as the American Southern Confederacy experiment a
bit over a century ago, or better comparison, the actual IRA.

Its almost like an uncanny valley thing. Turks want to genocide Kurds that are
like 5 miles away and blowing up their buildings, they'd rather shoot them
than let them leave which seems like a pretty dysfunctional relationship, but
whatever. But move that same Kurd 500 miles away and the hate evaporates and
they're businessmen bros lovin that sweet sweet oil money ahh remember the
good old days when we were all an ottoman empire together ahh the good ole
days. Just stay where you are and don't move next door, that's all.

------
puppetmaster3
To add color, here Turks boo moment of silence for French victims:

\- [http://tinyurl.com/zdht2aq](http://tinyurl.com/zdht2aq)

~~~
exodust
One theory goes that the recent bombings in Turkey were not honored by the
UEFA with the same silence. Crowd felt it unjustly?

And so what if they shout allu-akbah? Isn't it allowed at football to inspire
winning the great match? Terrorists surely don't own the usage rights of
allahu akbar. It's not audible anyway on videos.

------
jbmorgado
Oh nice. The white European blaming is already starting.

Let's forget that the majority of Turks elected a half-mad men that bases his
discourse in the superiority of Islam and in the ethnical cleansing of
Kurdistan.

Let's forget that Erdogan supported the Islamic state.

Let's forget that the Turks re-elected him after all this.

Let's forget all these pro-Erdogan demonstrations going on in the streets of
Ankara and Istambul right now, just as the guy wants to re-implement capital
punishment and is sacking judges, deans, policeman and military as he pleases.

Let's forget that Erdogan is bombing the only guys that are opposing the
Islamic State in the field right this moment.

No, let's instead do what all the cool kids do and blame the West. Cause you
know... in the end, it's always the West that must get to be blamed for all
evils of the world.

~~~
matt4077
With a bit of reading comprehension, you'd notice that I don't disagree –
Erdogan is one of the reasons I'm glad there's a "biological term limit" that
should hit him in the next 10 years. The people are equally to blame (though
it becomes harder when the disappearance of democratic institutions makes
ignorance more understandable). Also I guess that Mr. Trump is a good example
of what can happen even in the most stable democracies.

But that doesn't negate the fact that the fate of nations can be influenced
from the outside. Actions – those in foreign policy – have consequences.
Otherwise: why bother?

This also doesn't fit in your narrative of me being critical of some sort of
post-colonialistic lack of altruism. I am saying that Europe had a golden
opportunity to gain a strong foothold in the middle east and just let it go to
waste. It's also another failure in the rising culture war between democracy
and authoritarian capitalists (Putin, Erdogan, Trump, China, Hungary). This
time around, the enemy isn't quite as stupid as during the cold war...

~~~
tremon
_I am saying that Europe had a golden opportunity to gain a strong foothold in
the middle east_

But I think that is showing some misunderstanding about the role and purpose
of the EU: it simply is not and was never intended to be an imperialist
engine. It is a trading bloc that primarily operates to harmonize _markets_ ,
not governments.

The entire reason why Turkey had to jump through so many hoops to join the EU
is because the EU isn't there to regulate governments: it requires a stable
and open government to guarantee market access. Europe already has huge issues
dealing with Poland and Hungary voting in parties with strong isolationist
tendencies, do you really think the EU could have done anything to stop
Erdogan's current direction?

~~~
tim333
Some people want the EU to basically harmonize markets but there are a lot
that want it to do more than that. One of the main arguments in Brexit was the
extent to which the EU could control non market stuff like immigration and
human rights law and Turkey only dropped the death penalty to fit in with EU
standards.

~~~
tremon
_non market stuff like immigration_

Free movement of labour is a market requisite in the EEA. Britain stands to
find out the same: want to remain in the single market, accept free movement.

 _human rights law_

The ECHR is _not_ part of the treaties of the EU. Yes, it is a prerequisite of
EU membership, but it is a different treaty. Plenty of non-EU nations are
signatories, even Russia.

------
tremon
"half-mad" does not imply "mentally ill". I understand it's popular in the US,
but please stop redefining terms to suit your narrative.

~~~
grandalf
What does it mean? I hadn't realized it was a technical term with a specific
meaning. To me it suggests that a person is suffering from some degree of
mental illness.

~~~
tremon
_I hadn 't realized it was a technical term with a specific meaning_

Well, it is:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder)

~~~
grandalf
The term "half mad" isn't included in that article at all. I think you might
be trolling.

~~~
tremon
I'm not. It's the term "mentally ill" that has a specific, technical meaning.

"Mad" is simply a descriptive qualification of perceived irrational behaviour,
it's not a diagnostic assessment of mental ability.

~~~
grandalf
> perceived irrational behaviour

If someone is irrational, how should we react? Sympathetic? Fearful? Most
things we consider mental illnesses are irrational behaviors.

When used as a propaganda terms, calling a political opponent "mad" or "half
mad" is intended to call into question his/her beliefs and statements, and to
create fear that his/her actions will be unpredictable (counter to his/her
stated objectives, etc.)

~~~
tremon
_Most things we consider mental illnesses are irrational behaviors._

But the converse is not true: not every irrational behaviour is a mental
illness.

You also left out the word _perceived_ , which changes the argument from
individual interpretation to universal absolutes, of which there are very few.

 _calling a political opponent "mad" or "half mad" is intended to call into
question his/her beliefs and statements_

Yes, it is. It is _not_ intended as a medical diagnosis, which is what you
were implying.

~~~
grandalf
> It is not intended as a medical diagnosis

So then it is intended to rally political action.

Suppose two people agree on the same set of factual assumptions and are both
rational. They may still disagree on priorities. We see this in the US in
cases where two rights are in conflict, a court may find in favor of one
taking precedence.

The problem with calling one's political opponent irrational is that doing so
is intended to marginalize him by making his assumptions irrelevant. In fact,
it is intended to make his entire thought process irrelevant by framing it as
disconnected from reality.

If I assume the person sitting across the coffee shop from me is rational, I
can assume he won't come over and take my life in a murder-suicide. If I
assume he is not rational, I can be assured of no such thing.

So the name calling of "irrational" is predominantly a propaganda technique
intended to marginalize an opponent, not to simply find fault with his
reasoning, since if a person is irrational his reasoning is irrelevant (since
his reasoning process is, by definition, broken).

If the facts were laid out in plain view, perhaps it would not be so clear
that the political opponent was in the wrong. Perhaps we might find some
common ground or focus narrowly on differing priorities.

Which is why we find accusations of irrationality in situations where
compromise or moderation is not desired. Similarly, accusations that a person
is a "terrorist" or "supports terrorism" is a similar ploy.

We live in a world in which character assassination campaigns are levied
against many foreign leaders.

Do we think for a moment that our own leaders are in unique possession of
rationality? Of morality? Judging by the framing in the press, nearly all
foreign leaders are suspect or corrupt in some way.

The reason I disapprove of this is because having a knee-jerk adversarial
expectation of other nations does not benefit us at all.

In fact, the technique is used to draw attention away from the many failings
and shortcomings of our own political leaders. It's far easier to vilify
someone like Putin or Saddam or Erdogan than to own up to one's own horrid
track record. The public loves this, and considers it sport much like the
olympics. It's an ugly side of humanity, and has the effect of harming our own
institutions and leaders by deflecting much-needed scrutiny.

------
karpodiem
The Americans/Russians/Iranians should send him a cruise missle present.

This is like Afghanistan in the 80s, all over again. We should have let the
Russians keep them in check, and here we are, arming the wrong side the entire
time.

Good times.

------
shabaan
Turkey has turned over hundreds of American citizens who were caught trying to
cross over to Syria. This is due to the criminal exchange agreement.

America like always, behaves as if no rules, no agreements, no pacts, no UN
decisions matter to them. They are the big guys above everything. They denied
handing the person accused of treason to Turkey.

The title should be.. "This time its Turkey: America deceives... again"

~~~
somenomadicguy
Our agreement with Türkiye does not cover seekers of political asylum,
especially when they are naturalized citizens. Don't get me wrong, Gülen is a
very dangerous Islamist and I would love to see him in prison for his crimes
in the US and his part in this coup, but he also has all of the same rights
and protections of any other US citizen. We will be demonized for giving him
the same due process that Turkish citizens will not receive in this witch
hunt.

------
random123456
Why Turkey is against US?

Simple: US started or participated in every war in last 50 years, so maybe
they started coup in Turkey also?

US shows himself as a good guy, lawyer, builder, developer, savior and etc,
etc. But in reality government of US (not people!) is war machine, as a bonus
Hillary is a WARMACHINE (with big, bold letters)

So what do you expect from Turkey?

What US government loves: \- torturing \- oil \- mass surveillance \- killing
innocent for the sake of their dual-faced democracy (even US government
doesn't practice real democracy) \- and many more

So what do you expect from other countries? Love? hell, no, what kind of love
could be towards such shit guys.

I am only talking about US government not about people, I have lots of friends
from there.

~~~
pluma
You vastly overestimate the importance of Turkey to the US.

Also, there are easier targets to invade than a NATO member that is an ally
against Russia.

