
In India What We Are Seeing Is the Symptoms of Fascism: Noam Chomsky - ashleshbiradar
https://countercurrents.org/2020/01/in-india-what-we-are-seeing-is-the-symptoms-of-fascism-noam-chomsky
======
wtmt
_> NC: One thing that’s happened is the press has been pretty much muzzled.
They are very uncritical._

This is a big issue with mass media in India that many don’t realize or want
to realize. Between — a) most of the mainstream media houses (except a few)
not asking tough questions (but supporting the government for everything), b)
the Supreme Court ignoring important cases and not hearing them for years and
c) the amount of fake news spread through WhatsApp — the liberal forums in
India are filled with stories of how people are losing relationships or
finding it difficult to digest the fact that their loved ones are close minded
bigots.

Twitter has become a cesspool of bots, political party “IT Cells” and people
copy pasting the same messages and hashtags, while WhatsApp has become the
main source of truth (actually falsehood) for most people.

~~~
Red_Leaves_Flyy
You can substitute India for America and your points stand.

I think there's lots of blame to go on companies like Cambridge analytica.
That tech is literally a weapon of mass destruction.

~~~
oh_sigh
You think the US media supports the US government for everything? Have you
been reading the news the past 3 years? It seems to me to be just the
opposite, where a majority of the voices in the media are against whatever the
government(ie Trump) does. Heck, the few times when segments of the media
agree with the government, it comes couched in language like "I hate Trump as
much as you, but this time he might be onto something"

~~~
pjc50
The press in the US is just as factional as the parties. But there's a subset
who live off slander - Alex Jones eventually got sued off the air for lying
about Sandy Hook. That kind of thing does far more damage than just supporting
one party or the other.

~~~
ameister14
Which is why it's illegal and you get sued for it. I don't think that's a good
comparison - something illegal that is routinely punished vs something that is
neither illegal nor punished, but has massive effect

~~~
pjc50
Well, it's not criminal and it's very hard to succeed in a slander action in
the US. So it's very rarely punished. Which is why he could run a channel of
lies for two decades. Most of the time it was bizarre fictional allegations
against the government.

------
Despegar
Excellent New Yorker piece about this (I submitted it to HN when it came out
but it didn't get any traction):

[https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/12/09/blood-and-
soil...](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/12/09/blood-and-soil-in-
narendra-modis-india)

Fascism is gaining in many parts of the world today. But the 'other' this time
aren't Jews, they're Muslims.

~~~
kbenson
With such a large percentage of the population of not just the country in
question in the article, but also the entire world, I'm not sure they can be
seen to be "the other" to the same degree as the Jews were, given how common
they are.

In 1933, there were an estimated 15 million Jews worldwide[1], 9 million or so
in Europe. In Germany, with the largest Jewish population, they accounted for
less than 1% of the populace. In India today, Muslims account for close to 15%
of the population. According to wikipedia, they're very close to 25% of the
entire world population. There may be some vilification going on, but when the
other group is as large as that, I doubt you can expect a similar outcome or
as much of a one sided narrative in the places where it's attempted.

1: [https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/jewish-
pop...](https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/jewish-population-
of-europe-in-1933-population-data-by-country)

~~~
Despegar
Some things happening to Muslims in the world today (in addition to India) off
the top of my head:

-Genocide of Rohingya in Myanmar

-Ethnic cleansing of Uyghurs in China

Then there's just garden variety xenophobic polices like travel bans from
predominately Muslim countries in the US to the electoral gains of various far
right parties in Europe because of the refugee crisis.

Pretty wide spread there, but clearly fascism is on the rise.

~~~
kbenson
I didn't want to imply fascism wasn't on the rise, just some differences I
saw. That said, as I covered in a cousin comment, I believe I was
misinterpreting what you were trying to express to some degree.

------
des_t
It is actually happening for a while but for the last 5 years, it was done
under the disguise of progressive leadership. Now that the economy is down the
drain the people are waking up to see the true face of our leaders.

Thanks to the uneducated buffoon at the helm who faked his degree, didn't
listen to Reserve Bank/Chief Economic Advisors and ruined the economy.

------
ignoramous
I actively read r/india and there hasn't been a single day for the past two
months now that horrendous reports of Police rioting, looting, and killing
civilians (predominantly Muslims) come up but is never reported by the main-
stream media. There have been numerous cases where the ruling political party
has mobilised its pro-violence groups with a free-reign to do as they please.
Never has a public personality been in more fear of the governing apparatus
since the times of the British Raj and so only a few have spoken up. Comedians
focusing on social commentary say they frequently get messages of support and
caution which they admittedly did not get prior to the right-wing taking
charge at the center. The judiciary is in tatters, with judges frequently
found to rule in favour of the ruling majority. The judges who allegedly rise
up against the tide have been found dead in mysterious circumstances.

The Prime Minister doesn't engage in any debate and has been caught lying
consistently. The ruling party has been found repeatedly guilty of spreading
propaganda and fake news. Some of its leaders question even the founding
principles of the country and openly support and revere Gandhi's assasinators
and some hold no reservations against Nazism or Fascism. Activists have been
unlawfully detained, tortured, and murdered. There were also alleged reports
of Police raping 90+ young Muslim boys.

The current incumbent has not only managed to sell snake-oil to the Hindu
populace but continues to harbor snakes to the detriment of the very Hindus
that elected them to power: Most of them are in a state of denial about the
grim situation breeding in India and some of them think it is an important
lesson to be taught to the unruly Muslims. Perhaps, that'd explain why a
convicted pro-Hindu terrorist won elections by a huge margin, and why a Hindu
religious fanatic bordering on fascism rules the largest and most populous
Indian state.

Friends have lost friends, families have divided over oppressive, regressive,
populist, uncompromising politics of what's by far the richest ruling party.
No one is safe from the propaganda machine, not even the educated, not even
the ones in an industry as left-leaning and liberal as ours. It is as if
someone has blind-folded them and I don't even know how and when it happened.

It is disheartening, to say the least.

~~~
cmonnow
r/india Mods insta-ban any pro-BJP/pro-India/pro-conservative commenters. Now,
THAT is fascism.

Check out r/indiaspeaks where dissenting opinions are not banned.

~~~
braindead_in
r/india is just cesspool. They do not care about free speech or liberty; they
just want to control the narrative. The comments section is a shit show. It's
hard to find a decent comment. It's all gomutra/sanghi/fascist/chaddi. At
least on the other Indiaverse subs, we see some decent discussion. The best
debates on CAA are on r/IndiaSpeaks. It's pro-BJP, but you can still criticize
them there. And a lot of randians have found an outlet there.

~~~
sanmon3186
Having spent more than 10 years on r/India, it is saddening to see it in its
current form. An outright ban of people with a difference of opinion has taken
r/India to a whole new level of bigotry.

------
seshagiric
The Economist too reported a worldwide drop in Democracy Index and India
dropped 10 points. [https://www.eiu.com/topic/democracy-
index](https://www.eiu.com/topic/democracy-index)

------
coldcode
Fascism rose in popularity 100 years ago as a political option. Perhaps it is
undergoing a renaissance. I have no idea why anyone thinks its a good idea
unless you are the person in charge but it seems to attract support.

~~~
theseadroid
Because you probably live a comfortable life. For people who are struggling
and see no hope of changing for better they often support more extreme
policies just to "rock the boat". Years of rising inequality in many societies
have created more people who'd like to have things change drastically.

~~~
happytoexplain
This doesn't really match up to what I see, which is the people who find
fascism attractive also idolizing and politically supporting the wealthy.
Usually the people admittedly wanting to "rock the boat" are talking about
social politics, which leaves little room for sympathy when the tool used is
fascism. It speaks of hatred and nihilism, not desperation and inequality.

~~~
theseadroid
Inequality can be the root cause, but it is a hard problem to solve. Let alone
powerful people who control the media would never want it to be solved. The
result is people are not ready to face it directly. Instead they pick an
easier solution such as fascism/racism, hoping the solution works somehow.
Example: how many people blame foreigners for the absurd housing market?
Because it's easier to blame someone else than thinking critically and find
the root cause.

------
frsandstone
Google cached version:
[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:rKOigGZ...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:rKOigGZ6RpUJ:https://countercurrents.org/2020/01/in-
india-what-we-are-seeing-is-the-symptoms-of-fascism-noam-
chomsky&hl=en&gl=us&strip=0&vwsrc=0)

(Sorry for the search pop-up, I'm not sure how to get a cached version without
it.)

------
baybal2
You are seeing symptoms of fascism not only in India, but pretty much
everywhere. It did not sneak upon the world from some fringe underground
overnight. No.

The world had 2 decades to wake up, and mop up that political faction.

I honestly don't know where the world is going now.

------
naresh_negi_kr
> Karthik: Right. Maybe you can give some other examples in the world. But he
> was celebrated when he was administering the occupation of Kashmir. But the
> moment he criticized the BJPs occupation of Kashmir, the moment he
> criticized it as reducing Kashmir to a “vassal state”, he’s been in prison.
> > NC: In prison? > Karthik: Yes, in prison, without charges.

This news article ([https://m.economictimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/inx-
med...](https://m.economictimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/inx-media-case-
cbi-files-charge-sheet-before-delhi-court-against-p-chidambaram-karti-
others/articleshow/71646720.cms)) and several others seem to indicate that the
Central Bureau of Investigation has filed a charge-sheet and that Chidambaram
is out on bail right now. The initial First Information/Incident Report was
filed way back in May 2017.

~~~
fellellor
Chidambaram and his entire family are a bunch of amoral kleptocrats. He laid
the roots of the current Indian security state before Modi was elected. He is
now being prosecuted for arm twisting and even blackmailing corporates into
giving him money, shares etc. If there were any justice in this world, that
man would die in a jail cell along with his son. Now your comment is implying
that he is some persecuted liberal rights activist. This is either pretty
clueless or a malicious attempt to sway opinions of people, who being
outsiders, know nothing.

~~~
intended
Well, the current govt introduced black box, unlimited size, electoral bonds.

So pretty much anyone can spend billions to buy a bond, and then have it
anonymously sent to their party of choice.

The party which has been spending the past several years building a rock solid
link to corporate India is the BJP.

They're earnings the last year was greater than the other top 3 parties
combined, if not top 4. Think it was nearly 400% growth.

For Chidambaram and his ilk, it seems his greatest fault was not thinking big
enough.

I do agree that they are no saints. Its just the scale at which the BJP
functions is so many step function increments higher, that its laughable to
compare the two.

------
scarecrowbob
Here's a recent anarchist podcast on the subject. I note the political
orientation because clearly that impacts the interpretation of the events, but
it was an interesting listen, I thought:

[https://itsgoingdown.org/an-anti-colonial-anarchist-
analysis...](https://itsgoingdown.org/an-anti-colonial-anarchist-analysis-of-
the-rise-of-far-right-hindu-nationalism-in-india/)

~~~
fellellor
Antifa?

Ok

------
known
Muslims didn't kill 65 million people in
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties)
and 85 million people in
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties)

------
puranjay
I really struggle to understand the Indian right wing perspective. There is
absolutely no practical way to achieve their goal of a theocratic nation with
the country still being intact.

As much as they might want to fantasize about it, you can't wish away 200M
minorities. Nor can you economically progress if 200M minorities are
ghettoized.

~~~
random314
The model they have in mind is israel

~~~
puranjay
Most such models tend to fall apart when scaled to 1.4B people

------
redpillor
typical naxal propaganda. this strategy was written on their secret manifesto.

pak's isi is also funding paid stone pelting and protests.

------
0x8BADF00D
Strangely enough, anyone who is against globalism/neoliberalism is now being
labeled as a fascist. Even on here, if you espouse free market ideas, you are
instantly downvoted. Fascism has nothing to do with populism or the free
market. It is a system where the government takes control of the economy.
Don’t be fooled.

------
ladyattis
I think worldwide all proto-fascism is getting another turn at the wheels of
power only because the neoliberal world order post USSR hasn't come up with
any legitimate solutions that people feel need addressing. Whether it's wealth
disparity, immigration (warranted or otherwise), or healthcare it seems as
though we're stuck with old ideas that don't work out so well. Assuming
markets and light touching regulations will fix these issues isn't going to be
enough for anyone anymore. And I think the scary part is that if global
warming isn't addressed sooner then I expect full blown eco-fascism become
fashionable with some major parties. When (imo not really if anymore) that
happens expect massive purges to happen. It hurts me so much to see this
happen but if the neoliberals and social democrats can't offer an alternative
them in their inaction others will rise to give options even if those are
totally wrong for many reasons (moral, factual, spiritual, etc).

------
vsskanth
The right wing party in India came to power in 2014 in a perfect storm of a
very popular leader and a pretty weak opposition. Opposition was further
weakened electorally with demonetization right before elections in the most
populous state of India (UP).

They were able to successfully capture most institutions (RBI, supreme courts,
investigative agencies) in addition to capturing the media through corporate
ownership.

Social media strategy and a massive disinformation campaign on Whatsapp proved
extremely successful in the 2019 elections and the right wing party now has an
even bigger majority with the opposition decimated.

Barring a turn in public approval (probably from a recession), they will
continue to perform well unless opposition steps up their game.

~~~
ignoramous
There's more to democracy than opposition. I must remind you that the
opposition was at the center of many a scams when it was in power. They're no
good. There aren't very many better alternatives.

The citizens taking up to protests is the right way forward. The fascist
ideals of the current incumbent is plain to see in these times of mass
dissent. That's the point of worry here. Not opposition, not the ruling party,
not the right-wing politics, per se; but the unsatiable thirst of a pro-
violent party fronting a terrorist organisation to consolidate power with
facist undertones.

~~~
vsskanth
By opposition, I didn't specifically mean Congress. I meant a political
alternative that's better than what we have, hopefully citizen driven.
Protests are temporary. Ultimately you need to vote for someone in elections
to change the system.

------
jares777
why this is flagged?

------
Bang2Bay
here it is another article that talks about kashmir without pundits.

Depending on which article you follow you would get only one side.

This aritcle is nothing but far left pseudo secularists calling nationalists
as fascists.

------
des_t
I certainly don't support fascism but at least Hitler had some interest in
science. Things are worse in India. We spent 0.8% of the GDP on Science and
Technology. At the same time, a part of that (taxpayer money) is spent on
Homeopathy, Ayurveda, and Cow Urine/Dung Research.

Our policy-makers absolutely have no idea what evidence in science means. Here
is an entertaining collection of statements by Indian ministers,

=> “Science is a dwarf in front of astrology.” - Ramesh Pokhriyal Nishank, the
minister of human resource development

=> “Since man is seen on Earth, he has always been a man. Nobody, including
our ancestors, in written or oral, said they ever saw an ape turning into a
human being.” - Satyapal Singh, the minister of state for human resource

=> "Vedic theory is greater than the theory of relativity." \- Harsh Vardhan,
the current Minister of Science and Technology

=> "Cow urine cures cancer" \- current Bharatiya Janata Party member of
parliament

=> "Maths never helped Einstein discover gravity" \- Piyush Goel, minister of
Railways and Commerce

=> "Ganesha proves plastic surgery existed in ancient India" \- Modi, Prime
Minister

More gems here: [https://caravanmagazine.in/science/false-scientific-
claims-m...](https://caravanmagazine.in/science/false-scientific-claims-modi-
first-term)

~~~
reaperducer
While I don't dispute that those things were said, they're meaningless without
context.

How many people made such statements compared with the number of ministers in
India? Are these people still in power? Are they leaders in what they do, or
are they on the margins and taken with a grain of salt/ignored by the masses
and their peers?

Are the sentiments you list commonplace among Indian politicians, or is this
like when one Catholic priest says something wacky and the internet goes crazy
labeling a billion people?

~~~
des_t
Yes, without the context it could be misleading that is why there is the
hyperlink, so one can understand more.

Irrespective of what party is in power now or previously, the policy-makers
should not be making these crazy claims. Please understand this is not a race
to the bottom, anyone who holds public office should be held accountable. A
countless number of people will take their words as the truth.

And to answer your question yes many of these people still hold the office and
all comments were made when they held the office.

------
gambiting
"which essentially takes decision making over major issues away from the
national states to the unelected bureaucracy in Brussels"

Well that's just factually wrong

