
Why Germany’s happy, successful: Its values are the opposite of Silicon Valley’s - benevol
https://qz.com/1087893/the-secret-to-germanys-happiness-and-success-its-values-are-the-opposite-of-silicon-valleys/
======
dang
The only 'interesting new phenomenon' [1] here—and it's neither very
interesting nor very new—is that American media sites now put "Silicon Valley"
in every title they can. This is the dumbest example I've seen yet: it
literally conses "Silicon Valley" onto article body just to get away with
putting it in the title.

Apparently it's one baity supplement that hasn't stopped working yet. Probably
we should write some code to penalize such submissions a la 'one weird trick'
etc.

1\.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
smt88
You say that you don't like this phenomenon, but it seems completely apt here.

Silicon Valley _does_ have a particular culture, and it _does_ value certain
things more highly than other places. SV is, to some extent, idolized in the
US.

Germany's cultural values are different. Germany is doing well, whereas recent
surveys have showed that people in SV want to get the hell out.

So what exactly in the article are you arguing against? How is the SV
reference not related to the content?

~~~
dang
There's nothing to argue against. The article only mentions SV in its first
sentence and obviously just as a made-up handwave. That's doesn't 'gratify
intellectual curiosity' as the HN guidelines call for:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html).
What it gratifies is preconceived opinion, making it just the sort of article
we don't want here. Whether the button-pusher happens to be SV or something
else doesn't matter a bit.

~~~
smt88
It doesn't repeatedly mention SV by name, but it contrasts well-known SV
values/practices against German values throughout the article.

Examples:

\- bootstrap capitalism

\- work-life balance[1]

\- replacing meals with Soylent

These are pretty direct mentions of SV culture, and it even mentions Soylent
by name. I think Soylent is an excellent poster-child for what some people
think is right with SV and a lot of people think is wrong.

And that's not even an exhaustive list of the ways the article addresses the
differences of values.

1\. "Moreover, for Germans, a good work-life balance does not involve
unlimited massages and free meals on the corporate campus to encourage 90-hour
weeks."

~~~
dang
> _well-known_

I encourage you to be skeptical of the so-called well-known. You're
generalizing in ways that are probably an artifact of media narratives. For
example, most people in SV, including most in the startup world, have nothing
to do with Soylent.

------
someone42
German here. Whow, what an uninformed and misleading article.

The FDP remains irrelevant and its "politicians" are mostly show-offs nowadays
(a trend that started with the ineffable Guido Westerwelle) and some were
outright criminal or supportive of white-collar crimes (see the Flick affair
for details). The times of the old FDP, with old-style liberals - not
"liberal" economists like today - such as Gerhart Baum (who still posts
constitutional challenges at the age of 85!) is long gone.

There are also a number of factual errors. For example, the minimum vacation
time guaranteed by law is only four weeks, though the average is quite a bit
higher. The situation regarding the selection of students is also far more
complex than described (speaking as a CE professor coming from a working-class
family, I know what I'm talking about).

If you are visiting Germany, try the Ruhr area - e.g., Duisburg-Marxloh,
Dortmund-Nordstadt - or any of the small deserted villages in the eastern
states and maybe Berlin Kottbusser Tor for some glimpses of a different German
reality - poverty, crime, drugs and xenophobia. Munich has the highest cost of
living of all German cities, though far cheaper than SFO and Silicon Valley,
and is hardly representative.

And don't get me started on these neo-nazi assholes who are in the Bundestag
now. Horrible. A well-known saying in some academic circles is "It's a great
time to emigrate from Germany - but where to?". That might sum up the current
situation here quite well...

~~~
woodandsteel
>deserted villages in the eastern states

Isn't that the consequence of half a century under communism?

~~~
majewsky
No, it's the consequence of merging two vastly different economies too fast.
When the wall came down, most progressives in East Germany (i.e. those called
"dissidents" by the Socialists) argued for a confederation of both German
states with the longterm target of reunification. The West German government
forced a quick reunification in order for their own companies to buy up the
useful assets of East German economy via the Treuhandanstalt [1].

It's basically the same problem that you have inside the European Union today:
Vastly different economies have been forced into a common currency without a
political framework that pushes for a harmonic integration of the constituent
economies, resulting in the industry sector of relatively underdeveloped
economies like Greece to be utterly crushed by the German industry, degrading
them to a source of cheap labor for German (or rather: multinational)
corporations.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treuhandanstalt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treuhandanstalt)

------
pmarreck
I suggest anyone who hasn't already visited add Germany to their future
itineraries. Did a 2-week trip there almost exactly a year ago and it was
quite eye-opening, everything from being able to bike anywhere in Munich, to
seeing how well everything is maintained, to how courteous (and active) the
people are, and even visiting a concentration camp to get a sense that even a
good people can fall into depravity (which Germans are keenly aware of). (I
went to Munich and Berlin and a few other beautiful cities like Heidelberg.
All were incredible.) And everyone under the age of about 55 or so speaks
fluent English! (but German is kinda fun, if you're inclined to pick up some)

Also, having some Leberkäse on a pretzel roll with a bit of mustard and a
German beer while outside watching people pass by on the town square on a
sunny 72 degree (sorry, "22 Grad") day, is just about the most satisfying
lunch I've ever had in my life.

~~~
samsonradu
As someone who's been to Germany often and just visited New York for a few
days I'd be inclined to say Germany does it better in taking care of its
citizens. All the wealth the USA has seems to be translated into too little
for its people. Dirty streets, tons of homeless people (or close to homeless),
a subway system that looks worse than what's in my home country (Romania) and
many more. Felt people are unfriendly, I couldn't even get proper indications
on how to get places. Also plenty of people looked tired and overworked.

~~~
andreasklinger
> worse than what's in my home country

As european i had similar impressions when coming to the USA

Here in SF i pass more homeless people daily on my way to work than i see in a
year at home.

(I know SF is special b/c they keep them central but at home i'd need to look
everywhere to even get to similar impressions - if possible)

------
justboxing
> Sure, they favor high-quality consumer goods—but they deliberate on what to
> buy for years, and expect their possessions to last for decades.

This. The US was similar in this aspect until major retail manufacturers
started outsourcing everything to China. I remember reading elsewhere on HN a
while back, how Sears Washing Machines, Refridgerators and other house hold
appliances would last for decades, then, somewhere along the 70s or 80s, they
(and several other major home appliance retailers) switched to manufacturing
in China on the cheap and did away with repairing stuff. That just forces you
to toss your old appliance and buy a new one every 7 to 10 years when they
fall apart.

~~~
Fnoord
Thing is, if you buy a new washing machine and replace it within 10 years you
end up spending money on a new, cheaper one which is more environment-friendly
than the most environment-friendly ones from 10 years ago. Whereas your Miele
would've lasted 20 years easily but would've been out of date on the
environmental department. Its a catch-22.

The same with something like smartphones (I take it readers are thinking about
smartphones when they read this article? Very 'ungerman' product IMO). If you
buy a new one you end up downcycling the plastic and recycling some of the
elements. Yes, you gotta pay again for a phone. But its also presumably
better. It wasn't _possible_ to upgrade the old phone because phones are such
small, embedded technology (with bad software support being a minor part of
the problem) that they've become waste products. We, as tech community, need
to solve this problem in order to reduce environmental waste. How? Modular
devices. Laptops used to be modular. Now they've gone the smartphone route.
Why? Less weight/size, and less durability and the inability to fix it
yourself yields more profit. We can stop this by voting with our wallet.

------
alexasmyths
"are notoriously reclusive—perhaps because extreme wealth is considered
tacky."

No, Europeans have a great disdain and entrenched negative view of wealth.

(Edit: admittedly, most 'nouveau riche' North Americans are fairly tacky in
their expenditures. Some spectacularly so. I do actually find it borderline
offensive, some of the Instagram rubbish. Being 'showy' with wealth is a sure
sign of lack of real nobility)

In Europe, people's instincts are 'zero sum game' \- someone has wealth
because they must have 'taken' it, or one of their ancestors had.

In America it's a little more 1+1=3, even though that's often on the case.
Particularly in the valley. Bing Gordon had some funny things to say about
that - even American East Coast culture (i.e. banking) is very much zero sum.

The Valley, despite it's shades of narcissism is also very social in some
ways. Think of open source. It's a hugely important concept. And it's very
much 1+1=3, I think. And yet, immensely wealthy Google and others still treats
'any non essential staff' with low pay, like a 'lower caste'. (I find
sometimes we think our 'free software' contributions are 'noble and virtuous'
and then we forget that it's our actual actions in life that matter as
well...)

I like German culture - and yes, it's communitarian, but also very classist.
The state decides who goes to uni and not by the time you're a young teen -
and it's kids of well off parents. Uni is 'free' but they send fewer kids
there.

In Austria - it used to be up until actually quite recently that a CEO who ran
his business into the ground could face jail time, not kidding. 'Failure' is
something that stuck with your identity forever. 'Failed business' = 'you're
finished'. I don't think Germanic culture has yet figured out the art of
embracing failure. The 'math' on failure is hard when invariably investors
lose money.

~~~
SilasX
I remember a HN comment a while ago that explained how German/Austrian law
makes a lot more sense under the model of "first priority is protecting the
public from financial scams". So it's understandable that they'd err on the
side of lumping (some) legitimate business failures with the scams.

~~~
alexasmyths
""first priority is protecting the public from financial scams""

I have German ancestry and would say it runs deeper.

It's an inherent agri/communitarian mindset. 'Practicality first'. 'Value for
the dollar'. 'Frugality'. 'Risk aversion'. 'Moderation'. etc. etc.. look at
how different Merkel is from other world leaders ...

------
Camillo
Germany is successful because it kept its manufacturing jobs through the
collaboration of capital and trade unions: the capitalists kept the factories
in Germany, and the unions accepted wage restrictions [1][2] to stay
internationally competitive. This is quite unlike SV capitalism, but neither
does it look like the opposite, which would be socialism. The best description
of it is corporatism.

Of course, this also means that the benefits of Germany's roaring performance
in international trade have trouble reaching regular Germans.

As for happiness, the recent election results do not look like the choice of a
population which is content with the current course.

[1]: [https://www.socialeurope.eu/was-german-wage-undercutting-
del...](https://www.socialeurope.eu/was-german-wage-undercutting-deliberate)

[2]: [http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/a-share-of-
futu...](http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/a-share-of-future-
profits-german-employees-exchange-wage-cuts-for-equity-a-640304.html)

------
wink
German here, not happy (overall). /s

I think the article misses the main point. Lindner's FDP might have gotten
better results than in past elections, but it's not that most other people
decry them for their "startup values".

The more common thing is this age-old quip of lumping the conservatives
(color: black) and the liberals (color: yellow) together (as they reigned when
Kohl was Chancellor) - as "Schwarz-Geld" (Which is a pun on Schwarz-Gelb, i.e.
black-yellow)

So yes, my personal standpoint as a well-off software developer is: I can't in
good conscience vote for the FDP until my salary improves by like 50% - then
I'd see myself in their voters market. (e.g. tax cuts for buying a house,
etc.)

There's always been a tiny part of the FDP advocating most of the stuff that
the CCC also stands for, i.e. freedom of information, privacy, digital, etc.pp
- but it's really miniscule imho.

So much for my monthly FDP bashing - because it's the party I'd love to like,
but just can't.

------
deepsun
They don't mention about one very big drawback of Germany, one that will never
allow it to raise the next Silicon Valley: dislike of immigrants and
foreigners. It's not visible on surface, and looks pretty meritocratic,
especially when CEO lunches with you in common canteen, but once you work a
little in upper-middle class with intellectual workers, you will start
noticing that inside they don't accept anyone foreign. Also, too much pride
for their language adds even more barrier for accent-speakers.

In contrast, Silicon Valley is probably the most immigrant-friendly place I've
ever seen. There can be no German Sundar Pichai, nor Sergey Brin, nor Satya
Nadella, nor Shantanu Narayen. So I'm quite skeptical to those "Berlin is the
new SV" posts that pop up on HN every month or so.

------
dpweb
Was in Germany & Austria - for the first time, over the summer.

Wonderful, and highly recommend Europe to visit. I think I'm permanently done
with the Caribbean.

~~~
justboxing
> I think I'm permanently done with the Caribbean

Why? Crime? Drugs?

Curious, not trolling. Thinking of moving to Jamaica or Trinidad.

~~~
mustntmumble
Perhaps he/she is sick of hurricanes, that will only become more frequent and
more powerful as the ocean continues to warm up...

------
IslaDeEncanta
Germany has strong unions and a corporate structure known as codetermination
in all large businesses that helps balance the power between capital and
labor. Those two qualities, along with a monetary union that they dominate are
the causes of their prosperity, not some phony value difference.

~~~
alexasmyths
The fact that Unions sit on boards is a _function_ of their cultural values.

I'm not saying it's good or bad, rather, it's not just some policy, but a
reflection of cultures.

~~~
andreasklinger
There are stories about German companies (eg Aldi) who even had to push their
US workers to even form unions.

------
arjie
Masturbatory nonsense. Don't waste your time. If HN allowed me to pay 100
karma points to downvote, I would use them here.

~~~
Fnoord
> Masturbatory nonsense

Thank you for your thought provoking analysis.

Why masturbatory nonsense?

Yes, the article is rose-tinted because it doesn't describe issues in German
society; it is one-sided. However, that's obviously clear from reading it. It
doesn't pretend to be otherwise. There's already at least 2 comments which
nuance the article. Furthermore, the article's purpose appears to be meant as
a counter-thought of the "American Dream" (apparently that's now called
"Silicon Valley" because very little in the article was about technology).

