
Law Lets I.R.S. Seize Accounts on Suspicion, No Crime Required - 001sky
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/26/us/law-lets-irs-seize-accounts-on-suspicion-no-crime-required.html 
======
guylhem
Before, I wondered how such things could not be found in violation of the
constitution, while they were obviously taking property without prosecution,
guilty until proven innocent, etc.

The answer is simple: because someone in power said so, and with his thugs
buddies pressured the right people to turn it into law - aka "might makes
right"

A recent US exemple: civil forfeiture, even of the money you set aside for
your own legal representation, is totally ok, even if it actually impedes your
right to defend yourself, cf
[http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2014/02/ci...](http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2014/02/civil-
liberties-and-supreme-court)

To those who still can't believe civil forfeiture in the US, here is a sweet
example in the EU. The constitution explicitely says : "The Union shall not be
liable for or assume the commitments of central governments, regional, local
or other public authorities, other bodies governed by public law, or public
undertakings of any Member State" (article 125 of the Maastricht treaty aka
constitution)

Yet the european court of justice, equivalent to the supreme court, found that
bailing out Greece etc. by the European Stability Mechanism (purchase of
dubious greek debt) was perfectly kosher.

Now people object to the idea of the european central bank doing quantitative
easy, for similar reasons - because it's against the basic premises of the
ECB, the constitution, etc, but it will be done, regardless of what the law
says, if enough pressure is applied by those in power to result in what is in
practice disregarding the law.

Basically, you can have a crystal clear constitution saying X is strictly
illegal, but unless it's followed in practice, it's as worthless as the
freedom of expression that was granted to the citizens of USSR by its own
laws.

There used to be a separate judiciary power - even the state was subject to
laws. It is no longer the case. This separate power is being swallowed by the
state.

Is it profond disrespect of not just the spirit, but the letter, of any
constitution? Whatever. "Might makes right"

(Edit: clarified)

~~~
higherpurpose
I've said it several times before here, and I'll say it again. US needs a
"Constitutional Court" that filters out unconstitutional bills after they are
signed by the president, and before they become law. Some might still get
through, but everything else will function just like it does today, so there
will still be a chance for for that bad law to reach the Supreme Court and be
struck down once and for all.

The benefit of a Constitutional Court however is that it should filter out
_most_ of the unconstitutional bills trying to pass the government. I feel
that right now it's _way_ too easy for Congress/president to pass an
unconstitutional bill, and then waiting anywhere from 5 to 20 years (or to
never), to strike down that law, time in which a _whole generation_ can be
abused by the government (which I find unacceptable - bad laws should be
struck down _much sooner_ ).

I also think special Courts are usually bad news as they tend to become
_biased_ towards their purpose. So for example a "patent Court" will become
biased towards patents, a spying Court will become biased towards spying and
so on. But in this case, a Constitutional Court becoming biased towards the
Constitution would actually be a _good thing_.

~~~
Spooky23
That is a pretty broad shift from the theory of how courts operate in the U.S.

We have an adversarial system where the legality of a law attacked by someone
harmed by that law and defended by the government. Who would a constitutional
court represent? Dead white guys from 1780? Someone else?

If created, the first thing the court would do would be to rule itself out of
existence, because the Supreme Court is at river of what is/isn't
constitutional... And has been recognized as such since John Jay.

~~~
dllthomas
_" If created, the first thing the court would do would be to rule itself out
of existence, because the Supreme Court is at river of what is/isn't
constitutional... And has been recognized as such since John Jay."_

If created through a constitutional amendment, this isn't a concern...

------
emotionalcode
> He added that making deposits under $10,000 to evade reporting requirements,
> called structuring, is still a crime whether the money is from legal or
> illegal sources.

I don't understand this. How can anyone know whether what they are doing is
wrong unless those rules are built into the structure of the law and the
infrastructure of banks?

From how I read this, one government 'report' gets triggered if deposits are
over 10,000$. Another government 'report' gets triggered if deposits are made
for an indeterminate period of time under 10,000$.

> Instead, the money was seized solely because she had deposited less than
> $10,000 at a time, which they viewed as an attempt to avoid triggering a
> required government report.

How can they assume this?

~~~
maxerickson
It isn't just the act of making deposits less than $10,000 that is
structuring, as you quote, it's making deposits under $10,000 _to evade
reporting requirements_.

If you run a small business and make deposits of $5,000 because that's all you
build up in a week, you have a pretty good chance of making the case that you
are just doing your business. If you need $35,000 for some purpose and make 4
or 5 trips to the bank to get it, your explanation of why you needed to make 4
or 5 trips is sure to amuse the investigators.

~~~
jacquesm
> If you need $35,000 for some purpose and make 4 or 5 trips to the bank to
> get it, your explanation of why you needed to make 4 or 5 trips is sure to
> amuse the investigators.

Because walking with $35K in your pocket is simply stupid?

Taking multiple trips would make the risk of being robbed at all go up but the
amount taken could never be more than whatever fraction of $35K you decided to
walk around with.

Anything over $5000 is madness. _once_ in my life I walked around with in
excess of $10K on my person and I felt decidedly funny even though nobody
could have seen the difference between the skinny kid in jeans with and
without that kind of money on him. Never been more nervous in my life on the
street, it was as if there was a huge red light on my forehead spelling out
'target'. I could totally understand why someone would not withdraw $35K all
at once but rather make multiple trips with much smaller amounts.

My bank seems to agree with this principle because it is impossible to
transfer more then 20K in one go even from my own account to one of their
internal accounts.

~~~
vinceguidry
Maybe I'm just dense, but who are you and all these people who have large sums
of cash stolen by law enforcement dealing with that has to have it in cash?
When I had to get $7500 to the dealership where I bought my car, I just got a
cashier's check. The $10 they charged me was more than worth the peace of mind
I got from knowing it was safe against thieves both with the force of law
behind them and without.

I don't think I'd do business with anyone that wouldn't take a cashier's
check.

~~~
vacri
So when you get your change from the local shops, do they give you a cashier's
check? One of the things I did at my mother's bookshop was take the weekly
cash takings to the bank, and bring back some change for the next week. Those
trips were usually in the low- to mid- four figures.

I'm interested in how you propose to have a retail worker somehow convert the
cash on their premises into a cashier's check, so they can walk to the bank
and deposit it.

~~~
vinceguidry
Sure, for that use case, you do actually need to haul around cash. Assuming
it's not economical to use an armored car service. Also the stakes in this
case are much lower. Losing a week's worth of revenue isn't quite the same as
losing the down payment of your mortgage. But that wasn't what the grandparent
was referring to.

------
Yetanfou
How on earth can these practices continue in a country which prides itself -
to the level of claiming so in the last line of every stanza of its anthem -
on being the 'land of the free and the home of the brave'? This type of
injustice should be taught in history and literature classes in the guise of
Prince John and the legend of Robin Hood. It should definitely not be part of
the government curriculum.

Required reading to become successful in the injustice department:

    
    
        Robin Hood
        1984
        Brave New World
        ...

~~~
jjoonathan

        The Prince
    

1984 and BNW present two very important macroscopic anti-patterns, but they
aren't so great at documenting the day-to-day banal tyranny that make the
system what it is. The Prince, OTOH, was a real eye-opener.

To someone at the bottom of the corporate food chain, very little of its
advice was directly applicable, but it really helped explain the behavior of
the people above me. It turns out they're not nearly as irrational and narrow-
sighted as I was often tempted to believe. They were just shamelessly putting
their own needs first. I probably had a dozen "Ohhhhh... THAT's why X did Y
despite the obvious pitfall Z!" moments scattered throughout my first reading.

I credit The Prince with singlehandedly doubling my ability to predict turbo-
assholery and saving my skin at least once. Seeing a trap _before_ it is
sprung can really make all the difference. It should be mandatory reading for
anybody who hasn't yet had ample opportunity to observe the dark patterns of
office politics first hand.

~~~
nathan-muir
Sounds like a great read. Which edition / print would you recommend? (There's
about 5 on amazon)

~~~
nopassrecover
There's a public domain copy for Australians from The University of Adelaide:
[https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/m/machiavelli/niccolo/m149p/](https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/m/machiavelli/niccolo/m149p/)

~~~
nathan-muir
Awesome! thank you.

------
thelogos
This has been the case for a long time. The IRS works on a guilty-until-
proven-innocent basis. Take the case of collectible gain tax, if you do not
have evidence to prove the value of the item on the date it was acquired, then
the IRS calculates the tax based on the total value of the item, not just the
profit. So if you buy something that might increased in value at a later date,
you better keep the receipt.

And of course, anytime the government freezes your asset and property, it
takes a tremendous amount of time and effort to get it back. Meanwhile, you
won't have any means to hire a good lawyer.

~~~
MagicWishMonkey
And if you do have the means to hire a lawyer they would likely require you to
travel to Virginia and pick a lawyer from their list of lawyers approved to
represent people in that specific district.

Our justice system is a complete joke, I wonder if it's always been this way
or if it's just common knowledge now that every indiscretion is publicized on
the internet.

~~~
gamblor956
_And if you do have the means to hire a lawyer they would likely require you
to travel to Virginia and pick a lawyer from their list of lawyers approved to
represent people in that specific district._

Completely false. You can hire any lawyer you want, wherever you want in the
US. And you can force the IRS to litigate in the federal district court of
_your_ choice.

Practice before a federal court merely requires admission to practice in _any_
state court.

~~~
MagicWishMonkey
That's not what happened with Ladar Levison (the Lavabit case). He couldn't
use his lawyer, he had to find a new one in that particular district in
Virginia.

So I know for a fact the last half of your statement is not true, although it
might apply to cases that aren't related to certain government agencies.

------
sethbannon
"in response to questions from The New York Times, the I.R.S. announced that
it would curtail the practice"

While it's upsetting that this practice happened in the first place, and even
more upsetting that the judiciary seemed to allow it, it's a relief to know
that the New York Times here fulfilled the intended role of a free press.

~~~
ende
I heard both Tom Friedman and Paul Krugman were on the phone call and really
had at them.

------
NaOH
Two good additional pieces. One is John Oliver's segment on this from his show
Last Week Tonight.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kEpZWGgJks&sns=em](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kEpZWGgJks&sns=em)

The other is a piece by two of the people who were originally behind the law
but say it has failed and should be abolished.

[http://www.charlestondailymail.com/article/20140923/DM04/140...](http://www.charlestondailymail.com/article/20140923/DM04/140929808)

------
ipsin
So as an individual who wants to conduct transactions involving more than
$10,000, in increments of less than $10,000, what do you do?

You can't file a Currency Transaction Report on amounts less than $10,000. You
could demand that the bank file a "Suspicious Activity Report" on you, to make
it very clear that you're not trying to evade limits, but ... they're under no
obligation to do so, are they? And my understanding is that there's a Gag
Order attached as well, and the recipients of the report probably won't get
the nuance that "you asked for it" at all.

I think the "structuring" rules are kept vague because well-defined rules
would be used by people who wanted to avoid attention, for various reasons.

------
mindcrime
For the 8 trillionth time, let me point out that this is a perfect example of
why people should vote for Libertarian candidates. Pretty much NO Democrat or
Republican is going to take any strong stand against this behavior... OTOH,
pretty much ALL Libertarians would fiercely oppose this.

So, this November, when you go up to that ballot box...

------
zyxley
I still fail to see how this kind of thing avoids violating the Fourth and
Fifth Amendments.

~~~
adventured
It does violate the US Constitution. They simply don't care that it does, and
there is nobody left to stop them. The US has an increasingly extra-legal,
extra-constitutional government. What consequences have there been to the vast
violations, lying to Congress, law breaking in the spying programs? None, and
there never will be. That's a system beyond any decent rule of law.

------
nicwolff
So, carry $18,000 and it gets seized by highway cops because law-abiding
people just don't carry that much cash
[http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2014/09/06/st...](http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2014/09/06/stop-
and-seize). But take it to the bank in two batches of $9000 and it gets seized
by the IRS because law-abiding people don't avoid large deposits.

------
msoad
Meanwhile corporate tax abuse has no criminal consequences for decision makers
in the corporate!

------
stretchwithme
Innocent until proven guilty doesn't apply when all three branches of
government agree that it doesn't apply.

~~~
mullingitover
That's an understatement. The _entire Constitution_ doesn't apply if _two_
branches of government agree it doesn't.

~~~
joesmo
Sadly, I think only one branch is needed these days.

------
DanielBMarkham
Sidebar: the IRS also has special privileges when it comes to viewing your
private data. Most folks don't know this. If your account is "flagged" (for
whatever reason by a worker) they can go online and take just about any
personal data of yours they want.

The only reason more people don't know about this is that they haven't started
abusing it as much as they do funds seizure.

The IRS (and tax law) has some egregious structural defects that will not be
fixed with a law here or there. A complete overhaul is desperately needed.

------
carsongross
And there's that boot again, grimly stomping on a human face...

------
biot
How about a workaround: if you want to deposit less than $10K in cash, you
first withdraw an amount that, when added to your original deposit, totals
$10,001. This automatically triggers the reporting requirement. If enough
people made _every_ deposit reportable, it would be like a denial of service
on banks and the IRS.

~~~
thelogos
You'll be surprised at all the people making "large" cash deposit, seemingly
oblivious to the law. FinCEN is already bombarded with tons of information.

In the process, some criminals slide under the radar and innocent people get
caught up in the net.

The $10,000 limit is not a hard boundary. Banks can and often do report people
for making much smaller deposit than this, just to cover their ass. With
inflation going higher, $10k is not that big of amount as it used to be.

And we're not just talking about cash deposits here, everything is monitored
including money order, wire transfer, checks. For example, if you have regular
incoming wire transfer, and it doesn't even have to be international, you
better have all the documents and explanation prepared when the IRS knocks on
the door.

In this scenario, if the bank is feeling generous, it will refuse to service
your account and ask you to go somewhere else. Often times though, there won't
be a warning. Your account will just get frozen, "pending reviews from our
security department."

~~~
toomuchtodo
Never before have I felt cash under a mattress was safer than in the financial
system.

------
CauseOrSolution
When might makes right how far behind is a revolution to clean out the bullies
and tyrants who made it possible? Have leaders not learned what turns the
majority or vocal minority against them... not just at the ballot box, but by
the guillotine, armed resistance, suicide bombers, snipers etc?

------
Constitution4Me
The IRS violates the Bill of Rights directly and deliberately. They must
realize that it will be defended. If these words for example were pulled down
that would be a violation of the first amendment. The IRS is violating the 4th
and 5th and 6th and 7th and 9th amendments which means they steal your money
without lawful reasons.

The 6th amendment is violated because they even deliberatly take additional
money given to you to defend yourself in court and so they knowingly sabotage
your ability to defend yourself because of the thefts out of your bank
accounts. The 6th is also violated because the IRS cause legal delays and you
have a right to speedy legal redress but they deliberatly delay this.

Bill of Right in Plain English \------------------------------ First
Amendment: Speak your mind freely for it is your right. Each and every persons
has a right to freedom of speech, religion of choise, freedom to write what
they like in the press or on the internet, freedom to gather, freedom to
petition or protest against injustices.

Second Amendment: Defend yourselves and your nation. Keep and bare armes in a
well diciplined militia. The reason is that goverments often turn on the
people so that we the people must be allowed to defend ourselves or defend
against foreign invasion if the government itself fails to do this. An example
of defending your country is defending the Mexican border against ISIS
terrorists or against Ebola spreading because the government cannot or will
not.

Third Amendment: Your home is your home, it cannot be taken over by the army
or navy or airforce or government force of any kind. You shall not be forced
to house in your house soldiers even if they pay rent. For the same reason
your property cannot be taken for military use even in a crisis and no other
law can override this right.

Fourth Amendment: No government agency shall search, spy on or steal from it
citizens. Simply put the government shall not carry out unreasonable searches
and seizures. This applies to the person, vehicles, houses, businesses,
telecommunications equipment and computer equipment like your phone. This law
makes intercepting information or hacking by goverments without warrents
illegal because it is theft, and ureasonable spying. Thefts from bank accounts
without legal warrents is theft and you can arrest those responsible both for
theft and for violating the 4th Amendment.

Fifth Amendment: No government agency or person shall take anything from you
without due process and they sall not short cut such a process of law. You
shall not be deprived of your life or liberty and freedom without being able
to call upon the law to bring a possible defence using witnesses. Your
property cannot be taken without the process of Law. You shall not be forced
to talk if you do not wish to talk. You cannot stand trial twice for the same
crime event. A court cannot presume guilt by you pleading the 5th.

Sixth Amendment: You have the right to legally defend yourself. You have the
right to a speedy public trial and access to witnesses.

Seventy Amendment: If you are accused you have the right to a jury trial. The
jury cannot be selected or illegally influenced in such a way as to cause a
bias for or against you.

Eighth Amendment: Government persons or agencies or any organization shall not
sadistically or maliciously punish you. You shall not be given unrealistic
bail or unrealistic fines. You shall not suffer cruel and unusual punishment.
Common sense and fair!

Ninth Amendment: You have many basic human rights as do visitors to your
country. Even if these rights are not listed they shall not be taken from you
nor violated. Examples include the right to defend others, the right to defend
your country against socialist communists because they are destroying your
country. The right to pronounce any laws that violates any of the Bill of
Rights as invalid and to arrest those that attempt to destroy the Bill of
Rights. The right to take photographs or videos in public places without being
molested or threatened. The right to warn everybody that the US government is
passing laws that violate all 10 amendments at the same time! The right to
have the same rights as an American so as not be abused as a tourist or
visitor. The right not to be sexually violated at the airport. The right to
prove that personal violations at airports and ports is causing other nations
to stop trading with the USA! The right to prove that the stock market is
ultra fragile and represents false illusionary wealth. The right to arrest the
police when they commit a crime. The right to lay down your life for the US
Constitution and Bill of Rights without being accused of being a terrorist.
The 9th amendment allows you to explain in plain English the meanings of all
the amendments and to teach them is schools! The ninth allows you to put on
death row with due process anybody for treason who tries to remove the Bill of
Rights simply because attempting to remove or water down this law can result
in the murder of millions of Americans, so you are legally obliged to prevent
mass murders because of the 9th. The 9th amendment allows you to object to
carrying out illegal orders even from the president himself.

Tenth Amendment: The federal government shall not attempt to create laws that
override state or local laws or act in any way outside its federal
jurisdiction. FEMA for example has grown by combining many federal agencies
together and frequently and illegally acts to violate the 10th as well as most
of the other amendments. Instead of FEMA being a protective rescue
organization it has become an internal brown shirt thug agency with military
vehicles and gun boats. FEMA has become a predatory agency who are not your
friends but your ultimate deadly enemy. Passing laws that violate state laws
is a blatant violation of the 10th Amendment.

Conclusion the Bill of Rights or Amendments to the Constitution of the United
States of America is YOUR FRIEND it was written by a genius to defend you,
lose it and your own lives are is at risk. Your children's lives are at risk.

The weakening of the Bill of Rights is already deadly to your family.

------
Constitution4Me


------
Constitution4Me
“You Nation of Cowards!”, says Eric Holder in his speech to the people of the
USA. Yes he is calling us cowards! Holder is Obama's man, he is also the fall
guy too. Perhaps he calls us cowards, because Americans put up with so much
s-t from Obama, Holder, Bloomberg and Napolitano and do nothing. Is the IRS
controlled by the mafia? Yes it is, but not for much longer!

"We the people" do noting even to defend the very Constitution that saves us
from these criminals. There is a heap of criminal evidence against them all,
growing by the second, but everybody is a powerless coward! WHY? The judges
are paid-off by this gov mafia. All it takes for them to have power is a
threatening phone call.

Sane legal teams that defend normal people are accused and sacked and then the
mad legal teams take over - predictors against ordinary good people like you,
like your sister or your brother or your father.

Everything that is good is accused of being totally evil and everything that
is evil promoted by the media and government, promoted out of Obamas own
mouth. It's all upside down political correctness barking madness!

The IRS is controlled by this mafia. The USA has gone to hell in a madhouse.
The police are predictors dressed in black just like Na- zi storm troopers
that shoot your own kids in the back! The law does not apply to the police and
your life is worthless to them. You know that is true because of their swagger
and they behave like school thugs. Police carry military hardware and shoot
innocent people every day!

A few good cops, a few good sheriffs, a few good military commanders are a
threat to Obama. HE REMOVES THEM. I guess we voted the wrong man in because he
has removed over 300 good US military generals and captains! The consequence
is ISIS or ISIL take over - off with your heads and all this when Obama is
playing golf.

NOW! We draw a line in the sand. IT STOPS HERE!
\-----------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________ NO MORE!

So then the ARCH CRIMINAL HOLDER is actually right about: "WE THE PEOPLE BEING
COWARDS". Is he right? He is laughing in our faces, except he does not realize
that bravery starts out with inaction, starts with cowardly acts, or with
shameful thoughts.

Eventually a few brave men and women wake up, they are ashamed by their yellow
bellies, ashamed by their drug habits, their past horrible mistakes are
shameful, ashamed because they fail to defend their friends in trouble.

Injustice is how a revolution starts and yellow bellies quickly become hard
and brave and angry. DETERMINED NEVER TO BE COWARDLY AGAIN! NEVER TO TOLERATE
EVIL SOCIALIST COMMUNISTS AGAIN.

The USA will wake up, but will it be too late? Has the police state taken over
already? Yes, it has! America is NOT free anymore! Worse Obama is dragging the
rest of the world the same way.

It is never too late and it is time to defend the Constitution which
anticipated exactly these criminal minds taking over. For that reason the
Constitution is an unrecognized genius that defends YOU against death by your
own government. Obama knows exactly this fact and so he hates the Constitution
of the United States of America. Almost every signature on paper makes him
ARCH anti-Constitution reinforced.

It is so obvious - it is as if 80% of Americans do not know their own
constitution and are high on dope!

Do you agree that clean minds must rule not criminals? Do you agree that you
often tolerate what the rest of the world does not tolerate? If the IRS act
like mafia then the IRS ARE MAFIA! If you simply tell them NO and everybody
stands firm they absolutely cannot act against you. Why not say NO? Why not
bring determined charges against them and charge them with treason because
clearly their actions are killing the USA. Please Reply.

------
Constitution4Me
Deposit less than $10,000 dollars at a time and the IRS seals your bank
deposit - no evidence no charges required! ISIS chops heads off but IRS is
chopping its own head off. Trust has gone, common sense, gone, justice gone.
Picking on Mum and Pop businesses that deposit less than $10 000 and
confiscating the money is a sickness. I have studied the constitution and
casual violation of the amendments by authorities for mad reasons is a sure
way to destroy the USA. Then ISIS can step in. My idea is to VOTE somebody in
that ENFORCES THE CONSTITUTION so that violations require capital punishment
BACKDATED! That would be fair and legal and can save the USA instead of kill
it. It seams that applying laws because of criminals that clobber innocent
people is brain less. Come to England and start your own business - you pay
about 20% TAX. Please come away from the USA about to destroy itself.

------
monsterix
Just out of curiosity: Can someone dealing purely with cryptocurrencies (like
bitcoins) avoid this situation?

~~~
Alupis
Not really, you have to first funnel your funds into bitcoin, which may
trigger a review. Heck, if you use a US-based cryptocurrency "bank" like
coinbase or similar, they may even "review" your account.

(guess it's cash under the mattress for now ;)

~~~
programmarchy
He did say using purely cryptocurrencies, so if one was paid in crypto from
the get-go and didn't have to convert to or from fiat, then an individual
could protect their money, so long as they could keep their private keys
secure. #opsec

~~~
beagle3
... until you want to eat, and then realize you have to convert to a fiat
currency because the grocery store doesn't accept bitcoins.

Bitcoins are pseudonymous, rather than anonymous - and worse, every single
transaction ever is documented in the blockchain.

The IRS, I'm sure, is quite happy about this complete documentation, and while
they haven't gotten around to (ab)using it, I'm sure they will sooner or
later.

~~~
programmarchy
You can buy food with Bitcoin [1], although options are currently limited. I
think this will continue to improve in the future as the counter-economy
grows.

And I agree that Bitcoin's lack of anonymity is a big problem. However, there
are techniques one can use to keep transaction histories private, like using
stealth addresses and decentralized, trustless mixing services like dark
wallet and coinjoin [1]. Other cryptocurrencies like Darkcoin [2] have built
privacy features into their protocol. These solutions are not yet perfect, but
again I think they will continue to improve.

Further agree that abuses by the IRS as well as other state agencies will
continue. But why make it easier for them? It's only going to get worse in the
future if we do nothing.

[1] [https://bitdazzle.com/food](https://bitdazzle.com/food) [2]
[https://wiki.anoncoin.net/Anonymity_of_cryptocurrencies](https://wiki.anoncoin.net/Anonymity_of_cryptocurrencies)
[3] [https://www.darkcoin.io](https://www.darkcoin.io)

------
chinesrestaur09
Senorita and US Citizens. Hopefully the system works as well as in Meixco and
Venezuela or the former Chile under the 'strong supreme leader.'

1.)big corporation tax loopholes. reason dot com. So with tax receipts falling
thee is an incentive to crack down on small business . 2.)small business is
the engine of growth, but there is no need due to printing of money in the
shadow banking system. the shadow banking is a TECHNICAL TERM used by the
Federal Reserve and global banking system.

3.)Maybe the shadow baning system hides in the shadows with the derivatives.
Oh.... NO, NADA, NONE derivatives have been seized like the ';working captial'
of small business?

4.)BUT the IRS is well run according to talk radio like the lawsuits about the
IRSgate Lois Lerner scandals? Strange how all the government records
'disappeared.'

5.)this only happens to Mexican-Americans for perhaps the FREE AGENTS,
consultants, small business and even shoe repair will be targeted?

6.)So, there is a BIG drug war going on. It is global, but the USA is the
leader, IMHO. Using OUR leadership skills in making the world save for
democracy and the US leadership in IRAQ and the list of other 39 countries....

7.)So, there is a BIG drug war which is why most of the law enforcement
highway stops are GOING SOUTH TO MEXICO. Why?

7a.)no great interest in stopping ttravelers GOING NORTH with possible durgs.

7b.)Travelers including average citizens GOING SOUTH have cash. reason dot com
- police can seize it AND KEEP IT for 'police use.' Police use can include
training - where else LAS VEGAS where prostitution is legal? Police use can
include LUXURIES.

8.) this is in alleged possible preparation for the Cyprus bail-ins, where the
governemtn seizes not only cash, but the bank accounts.

9.)First, raise the 10,000 ten thousand reporting requirment to ten times that
or one hundred t. That allows any transaction, even 99,999$ to be investigated
- that is seized.

Of course, of course, the 'informal handshake merchants' as in the mid east
and bitcoin, digital currency are still operating.

so, perhaps most small businesses will go BIITCOIN?

22.)Will your local Chinese restaurant be affected?

IMHO, NO! Eventually ALL the chinese restaurants, especialy those iin the
nationa's captial will refuse to serve those who are 'tax collectors.' perhaps
you may look at the references in the bible about tax collectors.

PLEASE TARGET ALL CHINESE RESTAURANTS.

what is your opinion? Better off, with no chinese restaurants - most are
family owned and deal with cash.

~~~
chinesrestaur09
standard governnment advice is to use the offical bureaucratic procedures.
Senorita

1.)take the day's receipts and WORKING CAPITAL to Walmart, 24 hours

2.)wire it to MEXICO, with no questions asked

3.)need money every week to buy supplies of food? then have MEXICO holding
company wire it back to you.

4.)send copies to nation's capital, with copies to Mr. President and if needed
the lolcal police station. SERVE them the copies with videoape evidence when
they arrive to eat. Make sure to blank out any identifiers or ask them to hold
up the 'mask in front of the face.'

5.)raise the prices and also lower your profit, for

THIS IS COST OF DOING BUSINESS IN THE USA, for

Mr. President says, small business is the engine of growth in the USA and we
have no recession.

not legal or business advice, may be submitted to Colbert Report and other
satire shows.

------
hapless
In two out of the three given examples, the people involved admit to
deliberately structuring deposits to avoid reporting requirements. _That is a
crime, in and of itself._ Ignorance is not a defense.

These people were given bad advice by bank tellers and accountants, but they
are still guilty. Being offered a settlement by the IRS is more than they
should have hoped for.

If anything, they're lucky to have been subject to civil forfeiture. In a
criminal process, they would have lost all of the money, and also potentially
spent time in prison.

~~~
MarkPNeyer
"ignorance is not a defense" \- It is a defense. Any reasonable person would
accept "i did not know this thing i was doing, which hurts no one, was
illegal" as defense against charges of a crime.

It's just not a _legal_ defense because the legal system unreasonably expects
people to know and comply with the massive, ever-growing battery of laws.

~~~
bmelton
"It will be of little avail to the people that the laws are made by men of
their own choice, if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so
incoherent that they cannot be understood; if they be repealed or revised
before they are promulgated, or undergo such incessant changes that no man who
knows what the law is today can guess what is will be tomorrow."

– James Madison

------
morgante
I'm as outraged by the practices of civil forfeiture and asset seizing as the
next guy (our government is increasingly looking like a stationary bandit
[1]).

That being said, I'm not at all surprised that it happens and frankly not very
worried: it's on a ridiculously small scale. There's a reason the NYT article
focused on specific stories—the overall stats aren't exactly that scary.

Of 639 seizures in 2012, 128 were legitimate. While 80% false positives
doesn't seem good at first glance, consider that it's out of over 700,000
reports. Less than 0.1% of reports actually led to people's money being
wrongfully seized—that's a low enough rate that it's hardly worth worrying
about. If anything, I'm more worried that they're not catching more money
launderers and tax evaders (only 128 seems awfully low in a country of 316
million).

I think most of us would be hard-pressed to come up with a system which had a
similarly low error rate. Paypal, for example, hardly does any better.
Probably the biggest problem here is just that we don't provide effective
enough mechanisms for remedying it.

But this article doesn't even provide sufficient evidence of that. Take the
Hirsch brothers who have been having trouble reclaiming their money. While
that's unfortunate, I can totally understand how an all-cash family business
which paid vendors in cash might have trouble providing adequate records. If I
were with the IRS, I would have flagged them as well—tax evasion runs rampart
in those sorts of family businesses.

Yes, there's a small problem in our justice system (that it's hard to correct
false positives). But it's hardly something the average person will ever be
affected by. Focus on the scarier things, like systemic wiretapping.

1:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mancur_Olson](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mancur_Olson)

~~~
revelation
And how many of the 128 were "drug traffickers, racketeers and terrorists"?

There are always bigger problems. If a discussion thread just becomes long
enough, eventually you get people telling us to be happy because there are
others in Africa not having food.

