
The 16-inch MacBook Pro is a repudiation of the ‘Ive Doctrine’ - mpweiher
https://www.macworld.com/article/3453822/16-inch-macbook-pro-is-a-repudiation-of-the-ive-doctrine.html
======
samsolomon
I had a comment in 2016 that hints at this. Perhaps, it was true?

> There was an interesting idea floating around Designer News—Without Steve
> Jobs nobody can contain Johnny Ive.

> Jobs was a champion of the user. Tim Cook's specialty is in logistics, and
> probably defaults to Ive on many product decisions. In the mean time Ive
> continues designing beautiful products that focus on beauty and compromise
> on function.

> I doubt that's the case, but I like the theory.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13010358](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13010358)

------
sudhirj
Certainly seems that way, but it's discouraging that Ive and Apple had to part
ways just for Apple to get back on track. Very much a case of either dying a
hero or living long enough to become the villian.

I use this as a reminder not to drink my own kool aid. Even if I'm being
recognized at being good at something, it's not an excuse to double down on it
and push it too hard. No one is applauded for being judiciously balanced.

~~~
kayoone
> I use this as a reminder not to drink my own kool aid. Even if I'm being
> recognized at being good at something, it's not an excuse to double down on
> it and push it too hard. No one is applauded for being judiciously balanced.

But for a lot of things it can be positive if recognition motivates you to do
more. Like can you ever be too good of an athlete? Too good of a programmer?

~~~
ufmace
I'm not sure if there even is any universal measure for how good of a
programmer you are. There's probably someone who's really good at optimizing
the hell out of a really hot loop that absolutely has to be faster, never mind
if the code is comprehensible to mere mortals. And somebody who can design and
architect a huge, complex enterprise program well enough that a newbie
developer can quickly get an idea of what's going on and make contributions.
And somebody who can inherit a huge ball of mud and gradually refactor it into
something more reasonable while keeping it working the whole time. And
somebody who can start a new project and build just the right amount of
infrastructure into it at the right time - not so much that you've got some
huge over-designed thing for a product with 2 users, and not so little that it
becomes impossible to scale when you hit 10k users. And plenty more sub-field
besides those.

It's easy to be really great at 1 or 2 of those, and not so good at the
others.

~~~
sudhirj
Yeah, from the outside it seems like things had to be thinner and lighter to
be Apple designed, in the same way that some programmers think they have to
architect or optimise or <insert pet obsession> the heck out of everything. If
you do it well once you’ll be a hero, but if you do it to everything while
losing sight of your actual goals (customer satisfaction, business value,
righteous cause) you’ll eventually be cast as a villain.

------
nextos
I think Ive needed Jobs to provide some user feedback he would listen to ahead
of product release.

Without Jobs, it's taken Apple years to get keyboards back on track. Which is
absurd given that their desktop keyboard is really good.

I haven't bought any Apple products for years, except for their peripherals.
Their touchpad is excellent, and there's no other alternative in the market I
know of that works decently in Linux. Their keyboard is a pleasure to use
during long typing sessions and has really low latency.

~~~
725686
"Which is absurd given that their desktop keyboard is really good."

I guess that is pretty subjective. I for one, hate Apple desktop keyboards.
Not only the feel of it, but the layout (in my country) is different than the
PC keyboards which drives me nuts.

~~~
brokenmachine
Definitely subjective.

I find chiclet keyboards absolutely horrible, and Apple has been the pioneer
of that horrible type of keyboard.

The keys are terrible mushy little islands.

Mechanical keyboards are just SO much better.

------
samdixon
I find discussions like this extremely disingenuous. It's much like discussing
the lifestyles and personal choices of celebrities. You don't know what the
lifestyles of celebrities are really like, just as you don't really know what
it's like inside apple's design team. It's all speculation.

~~~
filleokus
Yeah. I hope me (and something like HN) still exists whenever someone in the
know actually writes a memoir about this period of Apple's history.

~~~
scarface74
We also know how obsessed Jobs was about product functionality. The original
iPhone was going to ship with a plastic screen and was demoed with one when it
was introduced. He saw our easily it was scratched an announced in a press
release three months before it shipped that they were changing to a glass
screen.

Contrast that to the then CEO OF Google who used a Blackberry years after
Android shipped.

------
kalleboo
Even on the iOS side, iPhones have been getting thicker and heavier for every
generation since the iPhone 6 (2014)

On the Mac, the issue has more been they prioritized design over
functionality. On the iOS side, the only functionality we lost to the design
obsession was a headphone jack, maybe some battery life, whereas on the Mac we
lost far more (such as being able to type). If an iPhone redesign made the
keyboard break, the device would be recalled and it would be fixed in weeks.
On the Mac they let it go for years.

The 2017 roundtable change in attitude seems to have been Apple now allowing
the Mac to "be a truck" as Jobs expressed it. Put functionality first, and let
the design adapt to that.

~~~
joeyzm
I'm not convinced removing the headphone jack was purely a design decision,
but rather strengthening apple's position in the accessories market, as it is
able to control the software side of bluetooth headphones, making high margin
airpods more attractive. With a headphone jack the playing field was flatter
for other headphone manufacturers.

~~~
scarface74
iPhones work with any BT headphones.

~~~
diroussel
But most BT headphones don’t work seemlessly between laptop and phone. You
usually have to unpair from you phone to pair to you laptop.

With a headphone jack I can unplug from my phone and plug into my laptop.

But once those devices loose headphone jacks I can’t just switch to BT
headphones. But I can switch to AirPods. Which seem quite expensive.

What other Bluetooth headphones can easily switch from my MacBook to my
iPhone?

~~~
scarface74
There are plenty of Bluetooth headphones that support Multipoint

[https://phiaton.com/blogs/audio/bluetooth-multipoint-
pairing...](https://phiaton.com/blogs/audio/bluetooth-multipoint-pairing-what-
is-it-and-how-does-it-work)

------
ComSubVie
> I like to call this Jobs’s Law, though it could just as easily be called the
> Ive Doctrine: Always strive for the next version of your product to be
> thinner and lighter than the current one.

Then hopefully somebody will start making "reasonable-sized" phones again.
Something like iPhone4/5 size with full-size displays.

~~~
baybal2
Not happening. Big co. are all going after Asian markets, and aircraft carrier
sized smartphones took off as a trend there.

Some people are even buy 2 devices these days. A giant 7 inch smartphone, and
a dumphone or bluetooth handset with dial pad in addition to it.

------
jmull
> ...the Ive Doctrine: Always strive for the next version of your product to
> be thinner and lighter than the current one.

I guess this guy hasn't noticed the phones getting thicker and heavier over
the last several years.

~~~
robotron
I guess you stopped reading there?

------
raxxorrax
Wow, this website eats CPU processing power like candy. It distracts from
reading if your fan screams at you.

~~~
1234_uuuuu
I'm amazed just how many websites my '19 MacBook Air struggles with.

That's not an indictment of the Air, which I bought fully cognizant of the
battery / heat / power tradeoffs. The Air is happy to run native design, etc.
software. The only time I feel its performance limitations is _when I 'm
browsing the goddamned web_.

Running a Pro most of the time it's easy to overlook just what utter pigs many
websites are today. But _seriously_ , how the fuck is it ok for websites to
grind popular consumer-grade computers to a halt?

Don't these engineers have any pride / skill / will to create good products?
Performance is a feature kids.

~~~
lewiscollard
I'll put money on that not being the engineers; I'm guessing that a dev merely
added Google Tag Manager and someone in sales/digital marketing went to town
on it.

Still, yep, I disabled uBlock Origin and that site is _bad_ (on my work's 2015
Macbook Pro). I like disabling it on news sites every now and then to remind
me just how utterly fucking unusable much of the Web is without it.

~~~
snowwrestler
Ghostery extension tells me that there are 105 (ONE HUNDRED AND FIVE) trackers
loaded by the article page.

Wow. I'm not even mad, I'm impressed.

------
baybal2
> ...the Ive Doctrine: Always strive for the next version of your product to
> be thinner and lighter than the current one.

I'd say it follows a rule of "every sequel to a hit movie is worse than
original" more.

I worked in OEM electronics since 2007, and I saw this happening all and every
time with big public companies. In the industry, we have a term for that. We
call it "Brand Fade"

It is near impossible for a big company to resist the urge to "optimise" the
product to improve profits after hit sales with hopes of consumers not
noticing it.

This is what is happening with Dell now with each newer XPS generation coming
out more penny pinched that the previous one.

~~~
gonational
Exceptions to that rule are as follows:

\- Terminator 2: Judgement Day

\- Aliens

\- Back to the Future Part 2

~~~
sanysany
Or Empire Strikes Back, Godfather Part II, and plenty of other movies.

------
dade_
I disagree aboUt USB-C on a Mac, Apple has always pushed new interfaces
forward. The iPhone is where the problem is, they keep refusing to retire
lightning. This is one area where it just doesn't work.

------
rudiv
They definitely didn't account for different populations' ears when they
designed the EarPods - I've never been able to wear them, and I've heard many
similar anecdotes from non-Westerners, and from some Westerners as well. The
first thing I noticed about the AirPod Pros is that they'd probably fit in my
ears, and I wondered what possessed Apple to change the design after years of
insisting that EarPods fit the vast majority of people's ears.

~~~
charia
The design change isn't an indication that they changed their belief regarding
that aspect of earpods.

The design needed to change to better incorporate the active noise cancelling
feature. Even if earpods fit most ears, to truly be able to implement in ear
ANC, a seal between the buds and the ear need to occur so they decided to
overhaul the design.

------
metalliqaz
I'm dense. How does "Always strive for the next version of your product to be
thinner and lighter than the current one." become "Ive Doctrine"?

~~~
big_chungus
He famously pushed it at the expense of good engineering, reliability, build
quality, battery life, performance, and all the other things people want in a
device. Apple over-indulged him.

~~~
metalliqaz
Oh, is Ive a person? Okay, I just googled it. Thanks. I didn't know about Jony
Ive. (if it isn't already obvious, I'm not an apple follower)

------
scarface74
Jason mentioned it on his podcast, but I didn’t see it in the article. The
iPhone 11 Pros are also moving into the right direction. They are heavier,
slightly thicker and have better battery life.

The Apple battery cases have always been a case of function over form. They
have always been butt ugly, but more functional than third party cases.

~~~
thefounder
>> also moving into the right direction. They are heavier, slightly thicker
and have better battery life.

The worst thing about the latest iphones(10, pro) is that they got heavier. I
find it so bad that I skipped the upgrade(s) because of that.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
How much heavier than your current phone were they?

(I'm not suggesting anyone updates, just curious how much weight caused this
to be the primary decision point.)

~~~
thefounder
Heavier to the point that I experience pain handling it for long periods of
times especially if I have to use one hand only. Shortly said the weight makes
it uncomfortable to use. A clear example where "syle"/fashion is valued more
than usuability.

~~~
closetohome
How is it fashionable for the phone to be heavier?

~~~
thefounder
Apparently the weight makes it "feel" more premium/solid. The shiny steel and
back glass give it a more premium feel as well(on top of the extra weight). I
guess this follows the Watch Edition/gold strategy.

------
dariusj18
As an example of the repercussions of such a decline, after years of being an
Apple user (I switched from Windows to OS-X when they started making top of
the line hardware and using x86 processors) I switched back to Windows because
their hardware become subpar and far too expensive for it, the lack of an
escape key was a big red flag to me. This also coincided with Microsoft's
current embracing of developers (not just MS stack ones), a better OS with
Windows 10 and WSL. It's been a little rocky, but I cannot see myself going
back to OS-X unless MS messes things up big time.

------
pistoriusp
Want to love your current "bad keyboard" MBP again?

Grab a wireless Apple Magic Keyboard and stick it directly on top of the
current IVE keyboard and use Karabiner elements to disable the MBP's internal
keyboard.

I actually genuinely enjoy this computer now. A few days ago I was trying to
figure out how to sell it and get a new 16" one, but honestly Apple doesn't
deserve my money or attention anymore.

~~~
nathanaldensr
Can you imagine what people would say about PCs if one had to do this with a
PC laptop?

~~~
pistoriusp
It's insane. I hate this keyboard with a passion, but at least I have a "quick
fix" that isn't going to make me give Apple much much more money.

The should recall these laptops.

------
musicale
> its commitment to an entirely USB-C lifestyle was premature

For me, going all-in on USB C is one of the best features of the 2016 model in
terms of flexibility: any port can be a power, video, network, or USB port.
Bad keyboard (butterfly) and trackpad (broken palm rejection) and virtual ESC
key, not so much.

~~~
lonelappde
And a bargain at only $200/port. (MacBook Pro 13" price with 2 vs 4 ports).

------
Invictus0
It was inevitable that someone would write an article arguing the return of
the escape key was an act of genius.

------
mberning
The iPhone 11 Pro was the first indication. Physically bigger, heavier, and
with a larger battery than the outgoing model. I am very pleased to see them
finally making a commitment to their "Pro" lines. A lot more could be done,
and based on what we have seen, hopefully it will be.

~~~
sanysany
I feel like press talk they had in 2017 when they announced they were working
on a Mac Pro was an early indication that things would change, and now in 2019
is when we are actually seeing the fruits of that change.

On the Mac side we've gotten the Mac Pro, Mac mini, and the new thicker
16-inch MacBook Pro (although it still is stuck on just 4 USB-C!!).

On the iOS side we've gotten the iPhone XR first, then the 11, and 11 Pro all
being thicker than the phones they replaced.

------
exabrial
I cannot wait to pick one of these up. In despair I caved last year and got a
2018mbp for work, so we either have to sell it or how somebody and pass it
down.

Next they need to phase out lightning now that usb-c is here.

------
jinushaun
Repudiation? Same number of ports as the 15 in…

At least they fixed the esc key and added space between the Touch Bar and the
TouchID key, which I argue looks better than the previous asymmetric design.

