
Why Young Americans Should Work Overseas - thestranger
http://postmasculine.com/work-overseas
======
rayiner
I view with a deep distrust the new class of global capitalist that thinks we
must inexorably become "global citizens." The western world didn't come from
nowhere. People built it, and their successors should be able to reap the
fruits of it, not have to flee to the developing world.

I read an article the other day (it was in Forbes or maybe Business Week).
Some American was talking about the investment opportunities in China, and the
cultural differences between the countries. He came to free speech, and he
basically said: "in the U.S. we can say whatever we want, but in China they
think that's silly!" I.e. apologizing for the repressive Chinese communist
government just because there is a buck to be made there now. My opinion of
such people couldn't be lower.

The fact is that India and Asia are not pleasant places outside the little
bubbles westerners and the local rich people build for themselves. You want to
go live in New Delhi? Be my guest: [http://www.voyages-photos.fr/images/new-
delhi/new-delhi05.jp...](http://www.voyages-photos.fr/images/new-delhi/new-
delhi05.jpg), [http://www.voyages-photos.fr/images/new-delhi/new-
delhi08.jp...](http://www.voyages-photos.fr/images/new-delhi/new-delhi08.jpg).

I'll be chilling here in America, where the bottom 10% live as well as the top
10% do in developing countries.

EDIT: I'm not advocating being ignorant of the world. People should travel,
and people should learn what there is to learn from other countries. But I
consider it a problem if young Americans _have_ to go abroad because there are
no opportunities at home. That's a failure of our social system, and a threat
to our communities and our institutions. My father didn't leave Bangladesh
just so my daughter would have to go back.

~~~
graeme
>where the bottom 10% live as well as the top 10% do in developing countries.

You clearly have never lived abroad. Money goes further.

I once lived in Cuba, for an internship. I had housing and food provided by my
employer, they paid the family $800. I had $500 spending money on top of that.

I lived like a KING. I've never been that rich in my life. People made my
food, cleaning my room, cooked for me, did my laundry.

Many thing that I wanted to buy could be had for a fraction of the price. I'm
led to understand that this applies across the developing world.

In particular, you can hire PEOPLE for a fraction of the cost you can get
interpersonal services here. This has an incredible impact on your real
standard of living.

According to Wikpiedia, bottom 10% maxes out at 10,500 in America.

That is POOR, assuming you don't have health care or housing provided.

I couldn't find reliable figures for China, India, Brazil or other countries,
but I'm very certain I'd rather be in the top 10% of those countries than the
bottom 10% of America.

Anyone have figures for those countries, or experiences being 'well-off' in a
poor country?

~~~
rayiner
Much of my family is "top 10% in a developing country." Yes, they can afford
people to make their food and clean their houses. That's just because of how
poor everyone is, and there is a very negative aspect to that situation as
well.*

But if you look at their apartments, personal possessions, etc, their standard
of living is comparable to people living in public housing in say the Bronx.

*) My dad once asked one of our servants, a young man maybe 18-19, to go buy a pack of cigarettes. He came back without the cigarettes, telling my dad "I'm sorry, I couldn't buy them--they were [as much as he made in a week or two]." He never asked him to buy cigarettes again... In general, its extremely awkward to have domestic servants in poor countries because those people are actually really poor. Their kids have no opportunities. They'll work until they're dead with no hope of retirement.

~~~
graeme
Ok, interesting. I assumed top 10% was somewhat better off.

I also read 'developing' for 'poor', which made me take a broader reading of
your point than I think was warranted.

------
seanmcdirmid
I think the math is a bit wrong. Your money actually doesn't go much farther
in Beijing, Bangkok, New Delhi, Kuala Lumpur, etc... Some things might be
cheaper (eating out) but many things will be more expensive (cars, iPads,
decent clothes). You might be able to hire a driver for 2 or 3000 RMB a month
in China, but you still have to buy the car for $4-50,000. At best, its
basically a wash, and if you are American, you'll realize how much cheaper
most things are back home.

Also, how much do you value clean air and decent schooling for your kids?

I've been out for 7 years now, and I don't regret it. But its not an easy win
life style wise.

~~~
yen223
Don't forget the worse part: salaries are much _much_ lower in third-world
nations - at least here in Malaysia - especially after considering currency
conversion.

To put this into perspective: median annual salary for software engineers in
Malaysia is about RM45,000, which is $15,000 a year. A 'highly-paid'
consultant might make about RM150,000 a year - all of $50,000 per annum.

~~~
sneak
So have US customers (who pay near-US rates) and outsource all your work to
skilled local contractors. Added bonus: it scales way beyond your normal
168/hour week cap.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
And where do you find those "skilled local contractors"? And why should they
work for you vs. a stable job?

You can take advantage of local labor sometimes, but its definitely not a
given, and it never lasts very long.

------
HunterV
As someone who grew up living all around the world I have this to say:

Watch the move "Lost in Translation"

If you can deal with forever being isolated, even with friends, then by all
means live overseas.

You will always be an outsider, no matter how acclimated you become. If you're
ok with that, then you'll be fine.

Otherwise, stick to America, it really is an awesome country to live in.

~~~
doktrin
Ugh. Really?

I truly don't get the hype about that movie. They definitely got the visuals
right, but a lot of it felt "off". Quite a few of the cultural stereotypes
were awkwardly over-played too.

Also, Japan is really a different bird when it comes to integration. Not all
countries have the same jarring and visceral division between foreigners and
local society.

~~~
HunterV
It feels "off" because it's strange for Americans, who grow up in a culture
that is made up of immigrants to understand that cultures with centuries of
history aren't very accepting of people who are different.

Don't get me wrong, the international community is very accepting, even
loving. But when you get to actual nationals, other than a few exceptions,
you'll never be truly accepted.

~~~
doktrin
> _It feels "off" because it's strange for Americans, who grow up in a culture
> that is made up of immigrants to understand that cultures with centuries of
> history aren't very accepting of people who are different._

I lived there for a few years as a teenager, and didn't really have an
experience that jived with the general atmosphere depicted in the movie. YMMV,
I suppose.

------
acabal
More than a few of these arguments are basically, "The money's better there."
Which might be true. But emigrating to a place is a big decision and money
shouldn't be the factor you use to make it. Depending on where you go,
building a new network of friends, learning the language, and acclimating to
the culture can be difficult and weigh against your happiness far more than
money can offset. And if you lose a year unhappily working in a foreign land
just because the money's good, well, that's a year you can't get back.

Instead of career-oriented work abroad, I always suggest that younger people
with few responsibilities save up money for a year or two and then take a year
or two off to travel instead. You have to commit to a longish period--two
weeks in Hawaii or Berlin doesn't count. But the experiences you have, and
most importantly the people you meet (including other travelers) will change
your perspective permanently, and you'll then be better armed to make a
decision on where to build your career.

~~~
billpaetzke
I agree with you on the difficulty of building your life in a foreign land and
the happiness or lack thereof associated with that. I have been thinking a lot
about this concept of global living/citizenship. It can open a lot of doors
but also leave a lot of loose ends. It sounds sexy but then life becomes
complicated as you have two (or more) lives.

------
EGreg
Being a big fish in a small pond has its perks. You can go for vacation to
developing countries such as Thailand and live like a king. People would be
willing to do whatever you want for money. Steak dinners would be $5.
Obviously the internet lets you have much richer clients in Western countries
subsidizing your lifestyle in developing countries.

But leaving all your family and friends behind to live there might not be for
everyone. There was recently a nice article posted about relationships being
more valuable to human beings than ambition:
[http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/04/relationsh...](http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/04/relationships-
are-more-important-than-ambition/275025/)

Not to mention, for a guy like me who is Jewish, and whose family would like
to see him marry someone Jewish as well, moving to a country where there are
very few Jews would just be decreasing my chances of starting a family. That's
why it's good to travel for long periods when you're younger.

~~~
108
There are Jews living in other parts of the world: *
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_India> *
[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/24/bnei-menashe-
move-t...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/24/bnei-menashe-move-to-
israel-indian-jews-from-lost-tribe-arrive-in-holy-land-photos_n_2359086.html)

~~~
EGreg
While that's true -- Jews live everywhere around the world -- it's not like
lots of Jews live in places with low income. Realistically I'd probably meet
someone in a city:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_urban_area...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_urban_areas)

------
rdl
Everyone should work overseas for a while, even if it's just in other first
world countries, I think. Not because you have better opportunities,
necessarily (for a certain class of tech startup, Silicon Valley is still the
best place...), but for learning about other cultures, etc.

------
resu
Other than teaching English abroad, how else can recent grads find work
abroad? The article really drops the ball on that one and the meager links
provided are useless.

I spent nearly two years abroad in undergrad interning abroad, but even then,
finding a relevant (not teaching English) full time job in Asia or Europe when
you're in North America is extremely hard.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
I found a good extremely appropriate post doc in Switzerland, which was
completely serendipitous. After I was done in Switzerland, I emailed some
manager at Microsoft China out of the blue, and have been in Beijing ever
since.

If you have specialized skills, you should be able to find demand for them
anywhere. You probably can't start a career here with nothing special in your
resume, but you can work for a big corp (e.g. Microsoft) and eventually get
transferred to one of their overseas R&D offices. They generally value
experience, which might not be something they can get locally.

~~~
w1ntermute
How do you feel about destroying your lungs by living in Beijing? A friend of
mine was so happy to leave after just half a year there.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Winters suck. All the other seasons are bearable.

------
sneak
The cost of living thing is very, very real. Have US customers, but don't
fucking live here (I am in NYC to visit).

There are many places where you can have a much better standard of living than
the US for the same price - including regular roundtrip airfare to visit your
friends and family. There are frequently huge tax advantages, as well.

------
jballanc
This has been my experience...

> Your market value is higher elsewhere

While true, it's also slightly simplistic. It's more than just market value.
There's an American mindset that has its plusses and minuses (like any
mindset), but the ability to combine the plusses of the American mindset
(entrepreneurship, risk taking, "fake it until you make it") with the plusses
of foreign mindsets (in my case: high value on community, stubbornness,
practicality) can be a potent mix.

> The quality-of-life/cost-of-living ratio is now much higher elsewhere

I'm reminded of when I lived in NYC, and friends would ask how I could afford
it. My answer was that you value different things differently when price
informs your choices. My first years in NYC I didn't have cable, didn't have a
car, and even used dial-up from home. I didn't mind, though, because there was
plenty to do without TV, easy public transit everywhere, and lots of cafes and
libraries with network connections.

Similarly, I've found that where I am now a lot of things are cheaper (fruits,
vegitables, dining out...medicine and health care) and some are much, much
more expensive (cars, gasoline). Again, I let price inform my decision making,
and overall I feel much happier and healthier now that I'm eating well,
socializing more, and walking places.

> The Jobs Aren’t Coming Back

Put another way: the rest of the world is waking up! Is there really any
reason that most programming jobs should be in Silicon Valley? Are people in
Brazil, Germany, Malaysia, Kenya, etc. less capable of writing software? On
top of this, many places are getting a "second chance" to grow their economies
(esp. the service sector) without making the same mistakes as the US (allowing
the skilled trade/manufacturing sector to languish).

> It’s time for everyone to grow up and become global citizens

The most shocking thing, for me, on leaving the US was realizing that there is
almost no other country in the world where someone would dare consider
themselves "educated" or "well cultured" yet have never been somewhere where
the people did not speak their language.

Go where they don't speak English. Then you will understand how to
communicate.

\---

Also, for everyone here commenting about China and India, a small suggestion:
look at Eastern Europe, Western Asia, Turkey, and the Middle East. The
demographics are positively tantalizing for anyone looking for economies about
to take off!

~~~
gorrillamcd
#4 is very true. Many americans I know live in a bubble (a very scientific
survey, I know). They only get news from the "outside world" filtered by the
talking heads on TV (no matter the political persuasion). When I first came to
Mexico, everyone thought I'd be kidnapped and ransomed the second I set foot
in the country. I've never felt in danger the 4 years I've been here. Sure,
there are some places (mainly Juarez and seedy parts of the border towns) that
aren't safe at all, but Mexico is so much larger than those places. It might
not be for everyone, sure, but living abroad at least temporarily is an
experience that is bound to teach you a lot if you take it seriously and stop
being a tourist.

Edit: Sorry, replied to the wrong comment, but it still applies somewhat.

------
mk3
In my humble opinion everyone should live at least for a year outside of their
own country. It makes people more open, and better. People who always been
living in one country tend to be more stubborn, and trying to hold to their
beliefs as if it's death or life question.

------
mathattack
#4 - Becoming a global citizen is the most important reason. It's good for
cultural and personal reasons. If you can solve a problem in another language
and culture, you have so much more strength coming home.

------
Ovid
I'm an American who's lived in five countries and currently lives in Paris,
France with my French wife and our French-American daughter (and if you're
curious, I have a blog about how you can move abroad, too:
<http://www.overseas-exile.com/p/start-here.html>). I note that the author
says their aren't enough jobs in the US _or Europe_ and I've got an issue with
that.

Yes, Europe is also struggling with the world economic issues and part of this
is the fiscal/monetary dichotomy of the Euro that they've not worked out, and
clinging to austerity to save face (and because it sounds reasonable when the
overspending straw man argument is pulled out). However, most of Europe (I
tentatively exlude the UK) doesn't have the deep structural problems that the
US has.

* The US has dropped from 1st to 12th place, internationally, in the number of people under 34 who've graduated from college ([http://completionagenda.collegeboard.org/sites/default/files...](http://completionagenda.collegeboard.org/sites/default/files/reports_pdf/Progress_Report_2010.pdf))

* The US murder rate, while at it's lowest since 1995, is four to five times higher than any Western EU country ([http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/statistics/...](http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/statistics/crime/Homicide_statistics2012.xls))

* The US the highest number of people in prison, per capita, than any other country on the planet ([http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_pri_per_cap-crime-pris...](http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_pri_per_cap-crime-prisoners-per-capita))

* The US has gone from one of the developed world's lowest infant mortality rates to one of the highest ([http://www.huffingtonpost.com/howard-steven-friedman/infant-...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/howard-steven-friedman/infant-mortality-rate-united-states_b_1620664.html))

* US education levels are falling ([http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5juGFSx9Li...](http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5juGFSx9LiPaur6eO1KJAypB2ImVQ?docId=CNG.5337504e8f65acf16c57d5cac3cfe339.1c1))

And I haven't even talked about health care or income inequality or the
chipping away at the petrodollar, potentially ending the dollar's status as
the default world reserve currency.

The US has deep, deep structural problems and these are _long-term_ problems.
Europe has some issues, too, but I don't believe the traditional US advantages
of entrepreneurship and limited regulatory environment are enough to offset
the EU problems.

The 21st century belongs to Europe and China unless the US stops its political
crap, rolls up its sleeves and gets back to being the America we thought it
was. There's still a huge potential in the US and it's a great place that I
miss in many ways, but it's no longer the land of opportunity
([http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/post/why-us-
eco...](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/post/why-us-economic-
mobility-is-so-low-in-one-chart/2011/11/17/gIQA4IFpUN_blog.html)).

~~~
Ovid
Note to self: don't post replies when you first wake up. Those typos are
humiliating :(

------
bane
I've been privileged to have spent a little bit of time overseas, travelling,
on exchange, working and living. I've hit most of North America and Western
Europe, throughout the Caribbean, bits of Asia and a fair swath of the Middle
East.

I agree that everybody should spend time overseas. It very rarely is a mind-
warping experience, but over time it changes your perspective in ways that are
very hard to communicate. That slow _process_ of taking textbook facts and
walking around in them and making them real is something that has to be
experienced to grok.

I recall my wife, who grew up in South Korea and immigrated to the U.S., but
who had never been to any other country, the first time we visited the
mainland of Italy. The gargantuan magnitude of ancient Rome simply overwhelmed
her. Growing up in a very old culture, and then living for years in a young
one, she had built up a kind of healthy hubris that was simply shattered
walking through thousand year old remains of something as mundane as a public
bath or a stadium or a public square. Things which modern Korea has plenty of,
but to see that somebody else had come up with the idea and built an empire
full of these things centuries before her culture had even come up with their
own written language was thoroughly humbling.

She initially felt it diminished where she came from, but over time she was
able to assimilate the experience and finally appreciated it, not as a
diminishment of her identity, but as an expansion of it.

All that being said, I disagree with this article:

1 - Marketplace value due to oversupply of college grads in the U.S. vs.
undersupply elsewhere: In many of the countries I've visited, the number of
highly educated barristas, taxi drivers and other low-end service workers is
simply overwhelming. I've met people with dual Master's equivalents who spend
their work day standing in a costume at the entrance to a parking garage at a
department store bowing to cars coming in. Trust me, getting college grads
into jobs where a college degree is needed is typically not a problem in most
countries (think supply and demand, if this were even trivially true, those
jobs would pay astronomical salaries, but even in highly developed economies
like Japan, they don't). Unless you just happen to have some specific skill
set, and happen to be fluent in the local language, chances are this entire
reason simply won't hold true.

2 - Quality of life: True in some still developing, but otherwise nice
countries, absolutely false in the developed areas. Moscow, while still so-so,
can easily cost more than NYC to live in; 12 years ago you could live in Seoul
for about 1/3rd of life in an urban part of the U.S., today it's about the
same, a nice meal in Bangkok might cost you more than in U.S.! Caracas now
ranks in the top 10 most expensive cities anywhere, likewise Singapore. Fancy
paying $8 for a beer, or $20 for a movie ticket? Welcome to Kinshasa and Port
Moresby respectively.

Other modern conveniences might similarly cost much more, how about paying
twice the U.S. price for an iPad with no app store support for your country.
How about Singapore's insane car ownership tax, how about paying $40,000 for a
Honda Civic? And oh yeah, gas will cost you. Let's move to Seoul where you
have to put a deposit down on an apartment so large you can't even buy the car
in the first place.

Let's not forget lax food safety standards, corrupt police, unbelievable
pollution...yes I'd like to live in Beijing where every day outside is like
smoking a pack of cigarettes.

Before you know it, the thin veneer of pseudo-quality of life familiarness
goes away astonishingly quickly when you're squatting over a hole in dirty
train station because the camel foot you ate wasn't cooked enough.

3 - The Jobs aren't coming back. Nonsense, it's a pendulum for some jobs and
doesn't matter for others. Do you think all the high-end finance jobs are
heading for Urumqi? Or that we're suddenly going to start outsourcing local
auto-accident lawyers to Dehradun? If anything, the U.S. is shifting lots of
outsource jobs back into the states after realizing that outsourcing
development, even at cheapo labor rates, often costs more. If the number of
Indians moving into my part of the U.S. for high-end work is any kind of
thermometer, the jobs are definitely coming back. A commuter bus I take every
once in a while completely defies this logic with a majority of the riders
educated and Indian!

As China's standard of living is increasing we're seeing the obvious effects,
it's not necessarily going to be cheaper to build stuff in China forever going
forward. And obviously, moving to an area like that defies #1 and #2 above due
to lousy pay and long hours in a job where you can assemble an insignificant
part of a device that'll be bought and used thousands of miles from you.

4 - Yeah, broaden your horizons! I don't disagree, but think of it this way,
would a New Yorker, struggling in the tough competitive environment of NYC
suddenly move to rural Arkansas because he might get a job more easily? No!
Why move to another's country's version of the same? I've often been surprised
at the places I'd love to move to (and even at the places I wouldn't). But
I've got to get real, no matter how cheap the table wine is in Florence,
moving there is not going to give me any kind of jobs benefit whatsoever.

Take an ESL teaching job for a year in another country for the exposure? Cool!
But don't think it'll substantially distinguish you in the market or give you
any other benefit other than a unique life experience.

