

Why the hell does this mouse need to connect to the Internet? - SeanDav
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/11/why-the-hell-does-this-mouse-need-to-connect-to-the-internet/

======
TeMPOraL
> Now we have a new entry in the saga of "Why the hell does this thing need to
> connect to the Internet?"

We live in this age for some time now already, but 'till recently it was only
"why the hell does this software need to connect to the Internet". On-line
document editing, on-line spreadsheets, on-line 3D modelling, on-line recipes,
on-line weight tracking, on-line todo lists... Store everything in the cloud,
use everything through the browser. So now I don't own any data nor can I
easily export it, can't integrate tools with each other and have to choose my
tools out of sea of unfinished, half-assed apps (also known as MVPs) that stop
being supported or just disappear when developers get acquihired or just move
to another project out of boredom.

Leave my files to me, give me off-line tools and a working sync. I just want
Emacs to work on my tablet, and some sane way to seamlessly sync data between
it and my desktop. Or personal cloud. Or whatever. And then I won't need all
those fancy todo, note-taking and calendaring apps that all together can
hardly beat org-mode.

Internet is not electricity, it's not always on and not always free. Until
someone figures out how to put Internet into a bucket to use as a battery,
please let me work off-line when I want.

~~~
mistercow
>On-line document editing, on-line spreadsheets, on-line 3D modelling, on-line
recipes, on-line weight tracking, on-line todo lists... Store everything in
the cloud, use everything through the browser.

Documents, recipes and to-do lists gain two legitimate and significant
advantages from being cloud based: sharing and collaboration. There are
disadvantages too, but it's a trade-off.

With a mouse driver, there's no trade-off; it's just all disadvantages.

~~~
smacktoward
There are _some_ advantages, at least in the case of a programmable mouse like
the one in question. Once you've got all seven thousand buttons programmed
Just So, you can then upload the profile to the cloud and have it
automatically synced with any other machine you might happen to use the mouse
with -- say, a PC at a LAN party.

Of course, this is about as small as an advantage can get, since I'm
struggling to think of a person who cares that much about their mouse profile
who wouldn't also lug their own PC to the party. So it's not all
disadvantages, it's just _nearly all_ disadvantages.

~~~
nodata
The advantage you named is no advantage: the mouse could store its
configuration on the mouse, just like other gaming mice do.

~~~
ajuc
It's a "professional gaming mouse", it's supposed to be used by progamers (the
ones that regulary go to LAN tournaments, have many gaming computers, and
destroy 20 mouses a year). I can see how syncing mouse settings between mouses
can be useful for them.

Still the execution is awful.

------
Osmium
A good company shouldn't forget who their customers are. In this case it
should be obvious, but evidently it needs pointing out: your customers are the
people buying your mice! Not potential advertisers you can sell their data to.
What were they thinking?

~~~
djpowell
Their privacy policy prohibits sharing of personal data with third-parties, so
I assume that they don't. There really seems to be nothing to see here.

Cloud storage of mouse settings is perhaps a bit wacky, but I really don't
think there is a conspiracy behind it.

It might make more sense for the driver to allow local configuration, and then
sync that to the cloud, rather than the other way around - but meh. The lack
of internet connection probably isn't a real-world problem for users of a
mouse targeted at MMO gaming.

I've got one of these mice, and I can't reproduce any unresponsiveness when
the driver transitions from online to offline.

I think the real lesson to be learnt here is that even if you've done nothing
wrong, if you don't want to be the target of internet hysteria, be very
careful that no feature in your product can inaccurately be described by
people on forums with the letters D-R-M... especially when it isn't.

~~~
vacri
If you read the article, it will tell you that once you've created your
account, it will then work in offline mode, just as you found. But if you
can't get to the activation server that first time, then no settings for you.
Braindead design - particularly given how unforgiving and self-entitled gamers
are as a demographic.

~~~
djpowell
Yeah, you have to create an account by entering your email address and a
password. That's all. I don't think there is an association between the
account and device - the account is just where your settings get stored.

I agree that the requirement to be online to use the config program is silly,
but most of the conspiracy theories, talk of DRM, and vilification of the
company that are flying round seem a bit overblown.

------
kbd
I really like my Razer Naga, but one day I went to install new drivers and
found that they required signing up for their "cloud" service. Worse, the old
drivers weren't available from their site.

So, now I'm using the mouse without drivers and am unable to benefit from the
extra buttons much of the time. I refuse to sign up for their cloud service
when all I need is hardware drivers.

I sent Razer a polite but angry e-mail about it a while back. I won't be
buying Razer hardware again if this doesn't change.

~~~
lobotryas
It's unlikely Razer will change their business strategy, but in the meantime
you should be able to download old drivers from Softpedia here:
[http://drivers.softpedia.com/dyn-
search.php?search_term=raze...](http://drivers.softpedia.com/dyn-
search.php?search_term=razer+naga&x=0&y=0)

If the particular OS/version is absent from that list, then googling around
will likely get you what you need. Zero point in enjoying less than the full
potential of your hardware. Good luck!

~~~
yuhong
Actually: "For one thing, Razer now plans to make Synapse 1.0 drivers and
other legacy drivers available shortly on its support site"

------
comex
To quote myself from Reddit (the article hints at this but it's a bit less
than clear):

"When I was perfunctorily reverse engineering the (OS X) driver for my Razer
mouse for this reason, it didn't seem to be doing anything special - even if
the mouse is more accurate, this seems to be reported the standard way, and
the software DPI control is just multiplying the value. I could be mistaken,
but you shouldn't lose any functionality by simply using the standard mouse
driver with third party software for hotkeys etc."

------
tonetheman
I love my naga, but dear god almighty I experienced the same thing when I
plugged it in. Frankly anyone who thinks it is a good idea is fucking idiot.

~~~
csense
The company can simply turn off the activation server in a couple years when
the mouse becomes "obsolete," "end of life," or "no longer supported," forcing
people whose mice work just fine to buy new ones.

From the company's point of view, how could it possibly be a bad thing to make
people buy a new mouse they don't actually need?

~~~
sukuriant
Because when that time comes up, Razer may find they're losing users to
Logitech. End-of-lifing my mouse is not a way to get a repeat customer out of
me, creating great products is.

~~~
csense
> End-of-lifing my mouse is not a way to get a repeat customer out of me

You may be in the minority. People buy products with huge ridiculousness
factors -- DRM, region locking, DLC, retroactive feature removal (I'm looking
at you, Sony), the mess that is the US cell phone carrier industry...The
number of customers who simply don't care about such things is large enough to
support a lot of companies.

~~~
vacri
Losing access to one desirable program is nowhere near as bad as losing access
to being able to use your computer at all (except for the keyboard shortcut
gods). The latter will leave a much more indelible impression.

------
patmcguire
I doubt this is malicious, just stupid. They wanted to have some sort of cloud
feature, either because it's the latest buzzword and they want to be up on the
times or they had some legitimate reason for a minor feature or for getting
data on how people used the mice on games.

If you make something like this opt-in no one will do it, so to justify all
the work you did or ensure full buzzword compliance you have to do it. It's
just a heavy handed way to go about it.

~~~
lucian1900
But they still didn't allow an opt-out, which is just idiotic.

------
logn
Very annoying. Reminds me of the Kindle Fire which requires an Internet
connection for basically any app to work. I just wanted to play some dumb
game, _that I purchased_, but couldn't because of no network connection.

------
dfc
Lets hope more people switch to roccat mice. Roccat[1] is the only vendor that
I know of with actual Linux support[2].

[1] <http://www.roccat.org/>

[2]
[http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=ODY1M...](http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=ODY1Mw)

~~~
corin_
I've worked with ROCCAT for years (as well as other companies like Razer) and
never heard about this before. How do other gaming mice do on linux if they
haven't focused on supporting it?

~~~
steevdave
There is an open source app for Razer mice, but it's fairly basic (or was, the
last time I used it) and doesn't have support for very many mice.

That said, I use a death adder, a mamba, a lachesis, and an Orochi with Linux
just fine. Admittedly I don't have the advantages of advanced configurations,
but that's what you get without An Internet connection with Synapse 2.0
anyway.

------
stephengillie
I've used a Razer Naga Epic for more than 8 months at my job. Having useful
keys, like enter, spacebar, ESC, f5, and arrow keys on my mouse has been a
dream for years, and the programmable 12-pad makes this a reality.

The Synapse service was designed for someone like me, who uses the same mouse
at home and work, even though I don't use it. Synapse syncs mouse
configuration settings across different computers, installs, etc. This way,
you don't lose your sensitivity and custom keybinds and macros.

However, being required to use Synapse is madness. The Naga Epic has "offline"
drivers. With Synapse, I wouldn't be able to use the mouse at work because of
(realistically) strict IT security standards. It's a shame, since I really
enjoy my Razer mouse, and was going to start supporting them.

------
ChuckMcM
Of course at some point it will have its own wifi or cellular. Modem and you
won't know that your settings are in the cloud. That is when it gets really
strange.

~~~
notatoad
This seems like some horrible over-engineering. Storing settings that are tied
to the mouse rather than the computer is a cool idea, but... It's hardware.
Stick a couple K of non-volatile storage inside it and your settings are saved
as long as you've got your mouse.

~~~
thwarted
And your settings are still there even if the vendor goes out of business or
Oracle buys them and changes the license.

------
Luyt
Razer is experimenting with a new business model: gathering personal and usage
data from players and the PC's they use, to sell to interested third parties.

~~~
batgaijin
Is that it? It doesn't have anything to do with a second hand market?

~~~
Zak
Intentionally destroying the resale value of your product wouldn't be a smart
move when the target market is fairly technically sophisticated and prone to
post rants on internet sites frequented by the rest of your target market.

~~~
batgaijin
Uh, they did it with video games.

~~~
Zak
There's more competition for the same users when it comes to things like mice.
There's only one Mass Effect 3, and some other game, no matter how good simply
won't do if you want to play Mass Effect 3.

Mice substitute for each other much better than games do. If someone replacing
a Razer mouse discovers it's difficult to resell because its functionality is
crippled, they're not real likely to replace it with another Razer.

------
sjm
I think this is less about selling data, and more about marketing another
perceived desired feature and trying to gain an edge on their opponents. This
happens frequently in this space, where mouse sensors with maximum DPIs no one
would actually make use of are the key selling point.

~~~
rhizome
What exactly is that edge supposed to be?

~~~
sjm
Another bullet point full of buzz words on a feature list. I wish I was
kidding. See: <http://www.razerzone.com/gaming-mice>

~~~
rhizome
Someone should analyze how much data is actually transferred. I doubt it's
more than $0.12 worth of NVRAM that could be stuck onto the mouse itself.

------
dean
_Tan wrote. "If an Internet connection goes down and if the user has enabled
offline mode by checking the "stay logged in" box, Synapse 2.0 automatically
goes into offline mode."_

Seems bass ackwards to me. You have to create an account online to be able to
use your mouse offline. Offline should be the default mode, and it should give
you the option to enable online mode. Saying the settings require too much
storage space to be stored locally just sounds ridiculous to me. That response
only serves to make me suspicious.

Also a bit surprised at the apologetic tone of Ars. Maybe Razer is not spying
on everything you do, but this is still a really dumb move on their part.

------
blisse
Posting from
[http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=379...](http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=379815)

>> The extent to which Razer collects information is not much different than
your average terms of service for most software you use. Like teamliquid, they
collect anonymous aggregate and individual data. Unlike teamliquid, they
reserve the right to collect personally identifiable information. This
personally identifiable information must be volunteered by the user. This
includes, your name, email address etc. This information is not shared with
any third parties except in a few instances where it is necessary to provide a
service or comply with the law. In all circumstances, the user voluntarily
provides this information.

===

And you are silly to think otherwise. My first impression upon hearing this
was immediately positive, even without hearing this. All my settings anywhere
I go with my laptop, without having to retweak it on a new computer.

Do you have multiple profiles? Do you have multiple profiles with a lot of
different settings? If you want to store it all offline, then you'll need more
expensive memory, and have to pay more for your mouse. Use the new cloud based
Synapse and you don't have to store all your profiles on the mouse. Store it
on the cloud, then sync it to your mouse when you want to use that profile.

I don't see why everyone is making a big fuss about this. I don't need the
features, so I just don't download Synapse.

From <http://www.razerzone.com/synapse2/faq>

>> All Razer products function as plug and play devices. Razer Synapse 2.0
offers a service above and beyond basic functionality to enhance your Razer
product's capabilities. This includes features like configuring and saving
macros, key binds, and preference settings. Razer Synapse 2.0 also maintains
your devices in optimal condition by automatically updating and downloading
driver and firmware updates, in addition to its cloud-syncing ability.

Razer Synapse 2.0 is not compulsory software to get your Razer peripherals
working - but it is advisable if you want to get the best out of them.

===

~~~
TeMPOraL
> Do you have multiple profiles? Do you have multiple profiles with a lot of
> different settings? If you want to store it all offline, then you'll need
> more expensive memory, and have to pay more for your mouse. Use the new
> cloud based Synapse and you don't have to store all your profiles on the
> mouse. Store it on the cloud, then sync it to your mouse when you want to
> use that profile.

Just put a $notmany flash drive there for those settings; it shouldn't really
change the price, and it would give benefits like:

\- mouse can work to it's full potential without Internet access

\- orthogonality of computer systems is retained (why on Earth should a mouse
depend on being able to talk to someone's server)?

\- no tracking

\- can't remotely brick my mouse to encourage me to buy a new one

------
steevdave
I don't know that I'd connect to any website in a cafe, and when I did go to
LAN parties, they were riddled with people scanning the network, and so forth.
I'd be much more comfortable paying more for more storage in the device.

------
timurlenk
I'm trying to find a positive interpretation to this:

Could it be that they are trying to find out how the customers actually use
their products in order to allow them to build a better product?

~~~
timeshifter
So they force all their users to go through a process that has 1) never been
seen before for a mouse, and 2) absolutely asinine in concept anyway? It's a
MOUSE. If you want feedback, ask for it. Don't force the user to jump through
hoops to utilize the product you just sold them.

------
frederico
Look at all the pro gamers; they aren't bringing their mouse every where they
go, they just save their settings rock in another mouse and are ready for
gaming.

~~~
cweiss
Are you sure? That seems counter-intuitive. If I were a pro gamer (and were
allowed), I'd sure bring the mouse I was most comfortable with.

~~~
sysm
You would bring your own mouse, however when you sit down at a tournament
machine you will need to install specific mouse drivers and get it configured.
Being able to sit down at any machine and just plugin your mouse/kb and have a
familiar setup seems like a great idea to me.

~~~
vacri
You would still need custom drivers to use the cloud mouse.

------
antidoh
Hmmm ... you could do the same thing with any device. Phones, tablets,
computers. Make them dependent on the cloud for daily operation, then drop
support later and force new sales.

------
nodata
Relevant: <http://bues.ch/cms/hacking/razercfg.html>

------
Cieplak
Somehow I am reminded of rms.

------
bravoyankee
Actually, the mouse needs to connect to the Internet in order to tweet to your
followers that you clicked on a button.

