
The Perfect French Baguette - MiriamWeiner
http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20190825-the-perfect-french-baguette
======
tomlockwood
> In addition to winning this illustrious competition, Bouattour and M’Seddi
> have a few other things in common. Both forewent the traditional trade
> school that many aspiring French bakers enter at age 16. Both have been
> professional bakers for less than a decade (as has this year’s winner,
> former engineer Fabrice Leroy). And both are first-generation Frenchmen with
> what Bouattour euphemistically dubs ‘origins’: family backgrounds from
> elsewhere – or in their cases, Tunisia.

> “I stopped thinking of myself as a foreigner a long time ago, but my origins
> make me the person I am today,” he said. “We all start with the same tools,
> the same teachers, but some people are going to understand things
> differently. That has nothing to do with origins; that’s just talent.”

For all the rhetoric on the right about how people from other cultures are not
"suitable" for "western" countries - some of the proudest citizens and torch-
carriers for tradition, are foreigners.

It also absolutely works both ways - Australia was virulently anti Italian and
Greek in the 50s and 60s. Now we almost couldn't imagine brunch without
espresso and feta on our smashed avocado. The diversity made us better.

~~~
charles_f
What I've always found interesting as a Frenchman living in North Americ, is
that there's no real equivalent to "black american" or "afro American" or
"hispano American" in French. The closest you'll find is "of Tunisian
origins", but that's usually left out, and not really the same.

The "official" results[0] don't mention anything about his origins. The local
press[1] does say his parents are from Tunisia, but only after introducing him
as a Parisian. The right national press[2][3] does mention that he is... a
chemist, which seems more relevant to the story than the country in which his
parent were born.

Surely this is an anecdote, but it does match the general observation I've
made. (although be sure that would he have killed a person rather than cooked
a baguette, his origins would be of the utmost importance for the story
telling).

[0] [https://www.paris.fr/pages/goutez-et-choisissez-la-
meilleure...](https://www.paris.fr/pages/goutez-et-choisissez-la-meilleure-
baguette-de-paris-6640) [1] [http://www.leparisien.fr/paris-75/paris-il-fait-
la-meilleure...](http://www.leparisien.fr/paris-75/paris-il-fait-la-meilleure-
baguette-de-tradition-parisienne-13-04-2018-7662258.php) [2]
[https://www.bfmtv.com/societe/la-meilleure-baguette-de-
paris...](https://www.bfmtv.com/societe/la-meilleure-baguette-de-paris-se-
trouve-dans-le-14e-arrondissement-1418199.html) [3]
[http://www.lefigaro.fr/sortir-
paris/2018/04/13/30004-2018041...](http://www.lefigaro.fr/sortir-
paris/2018/04/13/30004-20180413ARTFIG00155-la-meilleure-baguette-de-paris-se-
trouve-dans-le-xive.php)

~~~
new2628
The downside of this French attitude of everyone being "just French" is that
the earlier diversity of identities/languages has also been largely
homogenised. Think Alsacian, Languedoc, etc.

The effect reaches well beyond France: as other countries fell in love with
the model, they went after their own historical ethnic/linguistic minorities
with the same determination throughout the 20th century.

~~~
ur-whale
>has also been largely homogenised

You say it like it's a bad thing.

~~~
Glawen
why is it a good thing. For Alsace, the goal of the french state was clear:
kill the alsatian culture so that alsatians do not side anymore with the
germans. This began by prohibiting children to speak alsatian. Now, the new
generation cannot speak it anymore and cannot understand their neighbours
(Luxembourg, Germany, Switzerland). They have to learn German in school, and
they are not particularly good at it. It is a shame, as it would be a nice
advantage for them in the current EU.

The same happened for other regions (Bretagne, Languedoc, Corsica, Pays
basque).

~~~
seren
I believe what ur-whale is saying is that cultural homogenization, is often
seen as bad things for the short term for people that have to endure it, but
relatively for the long term it creates more homogeneous region with a shared
culture.

For example, the Roman Empire destroyed or assimilated hundreds of smaller
culture, but it also have the long term effect of creating a common ancestor
culture for most of Europe.

------
gumby
It’s interesting that the modern baguette is such a symbol, as it’s a product
of the Industrial Age (steam driven ovens) and its introduction alsmost drove
artisanal breads from the market over a period of 50 years (until, it seems,
Poilâne revived it. Of course people continued to produce non-baguettes all
along, they just weren’t iconic or common).

So now there’s a lovely assortment of brads available again...and with all
that choice I still continue to enjoy a humble baguette as well.

~~~
ridaj
> It’s interesting that the modern baguette is such a symbol, as it’s a
> product of the Industrial Age

As many things that people consider iconically French (Eiffel tower,
"Haussmann-style" architecture...)

------
Mathnerd314
This article reads like the quotes in
[https://www.wired.com/1995/02/chess/](https://www.wired.com/1995/02/chess/)
about how computers would never beat people at chess. Winning at chess
required "fantasy" and "creativity" and here baking requires "passion" and
"magic".

[https://www.cnet.com/news/bread-making-robot-makes-
everyone-...](https://www.cnet.com/news/bread-making-robot-makes-everyone-at-
ces-2019-trash-their-no-carb-new-year-resolution/) is a fully-automated
bakery, although it doesn't produce baguettes, and
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zfb456YrsM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zfb456YrsM)
is half-automated from dough to finish; maybe we'll get a IBM Watson-style
"robot bread" entry in the competition sometime.

~~~
paulific
The quotes in the Wired article are all kind of the opposite though. For
example:

"Today, 99.9 percent of humanity cannot beat the best commercial software at
blitz chess. Within the decade, it's likely the machine on your desk will know
how to play chess better than any human has played the game since its
invention in AD 600."

I suppose that really just makes your point though. Even in 1995 we were only
really trying to delay the inevitable. If playing chess is ultimately a
mechanical process and baking bread is ultimately a mechanical process, then
ultimately we should be make able to make a machine that does it better than
we can.

~~~
joshuak
> Even in 1995 we were only really trying to delay the inevitable.

Do people do this? Are there really people out there that are resistant to
believing that machines can or eventually will outperform humans in _any_
discrete task? I can see a reasonable doubt about general intelligence, but
other than that surely every mechanical advance since the plow paints a clear
trajectory.

These kinds of articles always strike me as absurdist handwringing. I suspect
that it's just fear mongering for views. Is anyone here[0] actually in doubt
about machines performing better than humans? I mean despite all of recorded
history.

[0]I mean you, the reader yourself. Not speculation of other people's doubt,
because I'm not sure these people exist.

~~~
corodra
Fair assertion. One I mostly agree with too.

But, what's the point then? I mean, if there's no point in pursuing anything
because a machine will always be better and no one is going to appreciate
anything handmade anymore... What's the point? To... eat, sleep and die?

I personally don't understand why a good portion of the population nowadays is
okay with the idea that humans will be obsolete.

~~~
entee
The point is simple: to paraphrase Marie Kondo, does it spark joy?

There are many things a human is better at, for example creativity and art.
Maybe a computer will eventually be a better painter, but it's impossible for
a computer to be a human. A work of art draws its power from how it speaks to
the human experience, as such I don't think a computer will ever make good art
in that sense.

Even speaking to something more concrete, just because a computer can play
chess better than I can (as can the vast majority of humans), doesn't mean a
game of chess with a friend is worthless. It's about the conversation, the
challenge of matching wits, pushing your mind to see new things, all those
things have meaning.

That's the point.

~~~
crucialfelix
Musicians and artists have been co-creating with machines (including AI) for
about 50 years. We play with the machines. Look at any artist working with AI
and you will see that the human artist does a lot of process, experimentation,
editing and presentation. I think it's a weird personification to declare that
computers will do everything themselves.

------
bluedino
When I was a kid, we'd go to the Amish stands at the farmers market and get
fresh made loaves of bread (just white bread), dinner rolls, cinnamon rolls,
strawberry jam...it was dirt cheap and delicious, even if it wasn't a baguette
(which I love).

Now that farmers markets are 'in', you can go there and get the same stuff.
But it's so marked up it's not funny. 12 dinner rolls for $5.50? $8.00 for a
jar of jam? A loaf of bread for $4.00!

My grandmother is long gone but I guess I could get some mason jars and
research on the internet, make my own jam and can it. I can already make
bread, but only bother to do it a few times a year.

I'm sure in another generation or so it will be a black art. Very few people
do that sort of thing anymore, but if you went back 60 years, everyone did it.

~~~
bobjob
How long does it take you to make 12 dinner rolls? \- More than 15 min of
work? Then 5.50 sounds OK to me. \- More than 30 min of work? Now 5.50 are a
bargain!

~~~
_ZeD_
Why do you think making a dinner roll should be billed at the same rate of
your job?

~~~
philipps
The comment you replied to didn’t mention a specific rate, but in general,
linking price to cost of production (including human time) makes a lot of
sense. I don’t understand why the two comments before yours are getting
downvoted.

~~~
newen
It seems like nonsense because "How long would it take for you to acquire a
dozen eggs? First, you have to buy chickens, wait for the eggs to hatch etc.
Therefore, you should be okay with paying an amount at the rate you're getting
paid for that amount of time."

Yeah, let's just throw basic economics principles out the window, shall we.

------
tasogare
Some Japanese are also really good at the craft:
[https://www.google.fr/amp/s/www.lexpress.fr/styles/saveurs/l...](https://www.google.fr/amp/s/www.lexpress.fr/styles/saveurs/la-
meilleure-baguette-2017-est-preparee-par-une-japonaise_1909370.amp.html)

~~~
ttul
The Japanese always manage to excel at importing delicacies and perfecting
them. Take for example Japanese whiskey, which is renowned and considered by
some to be superior to the Scottish variety.

~~~
tasogare
Well, in the case of bread, no. It's hard to find even decent bread here. But
a lot of them are indeed learning very well to make good bread and pastry
making in France. A least one baker in my region is taking advantage of this
focused and hardworking workforce.

~~~
philipps
Japanese pastry is amazing. The best Baumkuchen, a special cake from germany
that looks like the rings of a tree (baum = tree) and is considered a
delicacy, now comes from Japan.

------
amriksohata
I like baguettes but not the crusty ones that shred your mouth root, or the
ones with Palm oil

------
rdtwo
And here I was hoping for a good repeatable solid recipe

~~~
mumblemumble
I put a lot of time into perfecting my baguettes. Well, not perfecting, but
getting them to the point where they don't make me anxious.

I don't think reliably good baguette is as simple as a recipe. The recipe
conveys very little of what goes into it. It takes a lot of practice to get
down all the manual techniques. Just learning how to knead the bread properly
is an art in and of itself, and, even if you use a mixer, you'll still need to
experiment with the speed and mix time to get things dialed in. A lame can be
a tricky thing to work with, and your slashing technique will show through in
the final product. Pre-shaping and shaping the bread takes practice, and,
unless you're really into climate control at your house, learning how to
adjust ingredient quantities and rise times to account for changes in
temperature and humidity is a science in and of itself. You'll have to fiddle
with the bake time and temperature and steaming technique to figure out what
works best in your oven.

Baguette is the pale lager of breads: Most the flavor comes from the
technique, and the ingredients - four simple ingredients, very nearly the same
four simple ingredients - have such delicate flavors on their own that there's
not really anywhere for even the slightest mistake to hide.

Which isn't to say that you shouldn't do it. But I would say that you should
do it because you sincerely love the process of baking bread, not simply
because you enjoy eating the final product.

FWIW, one of my favorite books on the subject is _Bread: A Baker 's Book of
Techniques and Recipes_ by Jeffrey Hamelman. The recipes are mostly meant for
baking on a commercial scale, but the book also covers everything you need to
know to adapt them to your home kitchen.

~~~
analog31
Quite agreed. My family bakes all of our own bread. In fact, the kids don't
even like store-bought bread unless it comes from some fancy bakery. One of
them has gotten into baking.

In addition to what you say, my advice is: Don't be afraid of it, just give it
a try with realistic expectations. Start with something easy. Rolls and
breadsticks are quite forgiving, if for no other reason than that they're
usually gone before anybody can complain. ;-) Virtually any "failure" of bread
can be redeemed by making toast, french toast, croutons, dipping in olive oil,
etc. White is easier than grains, but you can work more grains in as you gain
confidence.

Nice shapely loaves that I can make into sandwiches are the pinnacle for me,
because I love my sandwiches.

When considering recipes, look at the timing of the steps. A recipe that fits
with your schedule is more likely to be successful in the long run.

~~~
mumblemumble
Speaking of schedule, _Artisan Bread in Five Minutes a Day_ is one that worked
well for us when we were busy. It's not the _best_ bread in the world, but,
considering the amount of effort that goes into it, the technique feels like
cheating.

~~~
analog31
I should mention one more point, which is that a fair amount of the time spent
making bread, is waiting. If you can interleave it with other tasks happening
at home, then it isn't a huge time sink.

------
growlist
This article is not really about bread though, is it?

------
LifeLiverTransp
Is not really factory produce-able like original ciabatta- cause one part of
the recipe that makes the taste, cant be effectively integrated. Its time. You
need little yeast, you put the poolish in a olive-oil covered cup, and put it
somewhere cool. And there it stays - for nearly a day. Then you add flour- and
let it slowly come all the way. Then for all your work you get little bread.
But it tastes oh so good. French bakerys - have a very limited supply of
baguetts - because they have limited space to let the dough ripen for a hour
or more (if it ripens cold). [https://bakerbettie.com/french-baguette-
recipe/](https://bakerbettie.com/french-baguette-recipe/)

Not interesting on a industrial scale.. which is why you usually get only the
tasteless whitebread you usually get.

~~~
ceejayoz
We manage to factory produce prosciutto, which takes 18 months, cheeses that
require years to mature, alcohol that takes decades, etc. 24 hours is no
obstacle to a factory.

~~~
_eLRIC
Mass producing baguette is done in many supermarket in France, but I've never
tasted any good one coming out of it

Producing a good baguette is an art, meaning that a good boulanger knows how
to take into account many external factors like humidity in the air to adapt
the recipe (% of water, prep time, cooking time). produce consistent result
and a baguette that taste good and fresh for a full day.

As for the number of baguettes produced in one batch, it is also because
baguettes (different from other bread that last serveral days) are really
better fresh. Fresh from the oven (for breakfast !) is best, half a day is
good, 1.5 day and still good means you have a very good boulanger.

~~~
ceejayoz
Supermarkets are going to target "cheap and good _enough_ ", in general. An
industrial-scale factory can control for a lot of those external factors -
it's a lot more likely to have humidity and temperature control, automation
that ensures precise timings and measurements, etc.

I do agree that freshness is key with breads like this - there's nothing like
a freshly baked one, and I still miss the morning croissant and baguette from
when I stayed in Paris years ago.

~~~
_eLRIC
You want to adapt the recipe for the weather outside of the bakery / factory
not only for what happens in the bakery, i.e. cook it a bit more when it's
supposed to rain so the baguette doesn't become soft / stays crunchy. That can
be done at small scale, but is difficult at industrial levels.

------
peteretep
The poor man's brioche...

