
3D Systems sues Formlabs, Kickstarter - tesseract
http://www.globenewswire.com/news-release/2012/11/20/506562/10013332/en/3D-Systems-Announces-Filing-of-Patent-Infringement-Suit-Against-Formlabs-and-Kickstarter.html
======
elliotanderson
Shame the patent numbers were not included in the press release.

A comment below mentioned the patent being possibly related to creating
support structures (additional 3D printing to support overhanging sections of
a model), and a quick search on Google patents brought up these:

<http://www.google.com/patents/US6558606>

<http://www.google.com/patents/US6797351>

And from the looks of it, 3D System has quite the arsenal of patents at their
disposal - see for yourself:
[http://www.google.com/?output=search&tbm=pts&sclient...](http://www.google.com/?output=search&tbm=pts&sclient=psy-
ab&q=inassignee:%223D+Systems%2C+Inc.%22)

------
scdoshi
3D Systems has been buying up companies in the field for a while now
(bitsfrombytes, botmill, Z corp and so on, more here: [http://static.cdn-
seekingalpha.com/uploads/2012/11/19/6383-1...](http://static.cdn-
seekingalpha.com/uploads/2012/11/19/6383-13533326480094328-SA-Editor-Eli-
Hoffmann_origin.png))

They are bound to have a pretty big portfolio of 3D printing related patents.
A case of 'join or be sued'? Strictly speaking, wouldn't even be against the
law, would it?

~~~
nickpinkston
I think that this kind of behavior is against the law, but no fully sure on
that.

3DS has been under anti-trust before and was forced to sell operations to Sony
(?) I believe. They've sued (and won) against EOS (Germany maker of SLS
equipment). They're known to be very litigious. I've actually been surprised
this hasn't happened yet...

------
weisser
How is Kickstarter at fault? Is it really within their scope of
responsibilities to conduct due diligence with regard to IP before allowing
someone to fundraise?

I hope this does not "kickstart" a new trend of bullying crowdfunding sites.

~~~
rwg
Kickstarter _did_ profit from the funding of Formlabs' project, which 3D
Systems thinks infringes one of their patents, so Kickstarter's inclusion as a
defendant doesn't seem especially bizarre to me.

I'm not a lawyer, and this is just wild speculation on my part, but it seems
that including Kickstarter as a defendant adds another dagger looming over
Formlabs: Kickstarter's Terms of Use, which Formlabs presumably agreed to,
includes an indemnification clause.

If Kickstarter chooses to exercise its rights under the indemnification
clause, it could demand that Formlabs pay Kickstarter's legal costs (plus
damages awarded, if any). Even if Kickstarter is dropped from the lawsuit as
soon as a judge looks at the case, they will incur legal costs that
Kickstarter could demand Formlabs pay.

The more money Formlabs has to spend on its defense (or Kickstarter's), the
less money it has to develop and manufacture products that compete with 3D
Systems' products.

~~~
sambeau
Surely this more like suing a bank that lends the money to a project that
abuses a patent?

------
iandanforth
There are a number of clues that 3D Systems will be the Big Evil of the coming
3D printing decade. Cube is proprietary, their model store has almost no free
content, and they are emulating the standard printer market in their cartridge
pricing. All signs point to a mundane corporate mindset that is playing itself
out here with a litigious reaction to competition.

------
electic
Instead of wasting money on lawyers, why don't they focus their time and
efforts on making great products? In a young space, such as printing,
companies that behave like this usually go out business eventually.

~~~
throwmeaway33
That's a really simplistic. The real world isn't that simple and it can take
years to get your business off the ground. Suppose the original inventor spent
several years perfecting a 3D printing process and then 4 months after he
starts selling his printers (before he's built up a rep, a steady stream of
clients, maybe with still no staff) some other schmuck with a shitload of VC
cash swoops in, does the same thing, but undercuts him by having a more
efficient manufacturing process or outsourcing to China or something. That'd
be kinda shitty and you wouldn't just tell the guy to suck it up, work faster
and invent something new.

The purpose of patents is to give new companies with brilliant ideas some
breathing room where they can grow their business.

I don't know the background of the given companies in this situation, but it's
possible that 3D Software was being muscled out by a bunch of kidz with a
flashy kickstarter and a nice promo vid.

~~~
forgottenpaswrd
Well, they had more than 30 years since the main technology was developed!!.

These kids are bringing 3d printing to the masses because the IBMs of the 3d
printing won't do it on their own.

There is a balance between granting monopolies(patents), and making those
monopolies eternal, or not respecting or giving credit to the creators of
something.

~~~
throwmeaway33
Patents don't last 30 years.

And yes, there is a balance, and I'm not suggesting it's been reached. I just
want to dispel the notion that it'll all be hunky dory with no patent laws.

------
zsupalla
Ok, I understand why they might sue Formlabs - it's a shame, but without
knowing the details there's opportunity for patent infringement there. But
Kickstarter? Seriously?

------
spartango
Annoyingly, this report doesn't say anything about which patents 3D Systems
believes Formlabs is infringing. Thus, it's really difficult to figure out
whether there's a legitimate claim here or just BS.

It's virtually impossible to judge the legitimacy of this case without looking
at the claims of the patents they believe were infringed. I definitely don't
think it's appropriate to assume that those patents are illegitimate. There's
a role for patents and this is a field where R&D costs may warrant careful
protection of the underlying technology.

------
001sky
One reason to raise capital (formally) is to deal with IP and lawyers, etc.
This is potentially achilles heel for Kickstarter model.

------
philsalesses
I know the Form team. Good people. I hope this works out in their favor in the
end.

~~~
nickpinkston
Likewise - they're great dudes, and have made such a great product. Apparently
3DS is sweating a bit...

------
robomartin
Here are the various 3D-printing projects on KS:

    
    
      FORM 1: An affordable, professional 3D printer
      Raised: $2,945,885
    

[http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/formlabs/form-1-an-
affor...](http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/formlabs/form-1-an-affordable-
professional-3d-printer?ref=live)

    
    
      PrusAL modular opensource 3D printer
      Raised: $1,777
    

[http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1530151019/prusal-
modula...](http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1530151019/prusal-modular-
opensource-3d-printer?ref=live)

    
    
      Eventorbot! open source 3d printer
      Raised: $137,508
    

[http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1874396831/eventorbot-
op...](http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1874396831/eventorbot-open-
source-3d-printer?ref=live)

    
    
      Bukobot 3D Printer - Affordable 3D with No Compromises!
      Raised: $167,410
    

[http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/deezmaker/buko-3d-printe...](http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/deezmaker/buko-3d-printer-
raising-the-bar-of-open-source-3d?ref=live)

    
    
      HYREL 3D Printer
      Raised: $152,942
    

[http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/25111729/hyrel-3d-printe...](http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/25111729/hyrel-3d-printer?ref=live)

    
    
      The Vision : Not Just a 3D Printer... A DREAM
      Raised: $65,346
    

[http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/vision3dprinter/the-
visi...](http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/vision3dprinter/the-vision-not-
just-a-3d-printer-a-dream?ref=live)

    
    
      Open Source Universal 3D Printer Extruder | DUAL EXTRUSION 
      Raised: $73,361
    

[http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/qu-bd/open-source-
univer...](http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/qu-bd/open-source-
universal-3d-printer-extruder-dual-ext?ref=live)

    
    
      --------------------------

All-up that's quite a chunk of change going into 3D printing projects. I would
imagine this has to have raised a flag at 3D Systems. They do have a number of
personal 3D printing systems shown here:

<http://www.3dsystems.com/personal-3d-printers>

Imagine selling product in the $1,200 to $5,000 range and having a Kickstarter
campaign suck well over three million dollars from the market. This is what is
called a displacement market. For the most part people are not going to go out
and purchase multiple hobby 3D printers simultaneously. They'll either buy one
or the other, not two or more. This means that this is three million dollars
of potential 3D Systems sales that simply evaporated from the horizon.

I can understand what that might feel like from their vantage point. I have
not reviewed the patent or patents in question. Perhaps someone can post links
to them. This means that I really can't have an opinion as to whether these
are bullshit patents or real invention patents. Having read through hundreds
of patents over the years it is my opinion that most patents --software or
not-- are solidly in the category of bullshit patents.

My test is the distinction between implementation and true invention. The
first is something that any individual or team of reasonably qualified
engineers could execute on if asked to do so. Invention is where you ask a
bunch of engineers to solve the problem and only one or two out of ten might
do it and the rest are left scratching their heads. If we adopted some such
definition as a validity test the world might just be a much nicer place for
all.

I just don't know on this one yet. I do know that loosing three million
dollars in business will make anyone angry enough to reach for legal recourse
if they have it.

~~~
elliotanderson
The Formlabs project is unlike the other projects you have mentioned.

Most hobbyist level 3D printers rely on extrusion (also known as fused
deposition modeling) - heating up a spool of soft plastic (such as PLA) and
extruding it out of a print head similar to how a desktop printer works. The
Formlabs project is using a technique called stereolithography (1) where each
layer is created by printing a layer of material (again, similar to a desktop
printer) that is then cured by a laser (usually ultraviolet). It's a technique
that allows for higher resolution objects to be created

1\. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fused_deposition_modeling> 2\.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereolithography>

~~~
robomartin
I understand the difference. We've used big-boy SLA a bunch to print
mechanical prototypes. I was just pointing out that this is a displacement
market (SLA or not) and that over three million dollars just left the market
because of Kickstarter/Formlabs. At least that's what it probably looks like
from 3D Systems' vantage point.

------
cplicious
From what I understand they are infringing on a patent by 3D Systems which has
something to do with pin head support structure. If this is the case they can
easily update the software to use a different style of support and they would
be in the clear... That's just speculation and I have no confirmation on if
thats the case or not.

------
elliotanderson
I am a little naive as to American legal process, but does Kickstarter enjoy
any safe harbor provisions as a fund raising website? They are not the ones
producing the 3D printer technology in question, only facilitating its
funding. If they are being sued for such service, wouldn't that also make
Amazon Payments culpable?

~~~
flyinRyan
As has been mentioned elsewhere, they're probably not being sued to get money
but rather to freeze the funding. If they transfer that money then the
infringing company can just keep going while delaying the trial as long as
possible.

And if that is indeed the case, then Amazon could be sued for the same reason.

------
scep12
In some ways, this disgusts me. In other ways, I can undersand it's a
necessity.

~~~
nickpinkston
You can always hate a patent system that can kill innovation like this does.
How much technology have we lost due to these types of lawsuits?

~~~
anigbrowl
That's a two-way street. You could equally ask how much technology would be
lost/delayed without the ability to get patent protection for it.

~~~
nickpinkston
Of course - I suspect that most existing tech would exist, but some things
(drug discovery) would need to be further subsidized. However, things like
drug patents are arguably as apt to be funded as roads or a court system -
public health mustn't be held hostage.

~~~
Jach
The cost of research for a new drug is dwarfed by the cost to get it approved
by the FDA, and dwarfed again by further marketing costs. Not to mention most
"researched" drugs are just "me-too" copies of financially successful drugs.
Not to mention that of the top 46 selling drugs worldwide, 20 of them do not
owe their existence to patents. And the case for pharmaceutical patents just
gets worse and worse, it's a great case study of patents being totally
ineffective in encouraging innovation or benefiting the consumer.
<http://levine.sscnet.ucla.edu/papers/imbookfinal09.pdf>

~~~
nickpinkston
Agreed - I struggle to find any area of engineering that would decrease in
output in the long term from the striking of patent from our laws.

------
techknight
GODDAMMIT

------
xilei
Would be great to run another KS campaign to raise Millions to fight,
countersue and beat to the punch 3DSystems. Ready?

------
antihero
What would happen if FormLabs released their blueprints/designs into the
public domain?

~~~
xilei
Apparently the same thing...

[http://www.quora.com/Can-someone-be-sued-for-releasing-
open-...](http://www.quora.com/Can-someone-be-sued-for-releasing-open-source-
software-that-may-violate-someone-elses-patent)

So counter-intuitive and illogical that it proves the current system is
unsatisfactory.

