

Ask HN: Go HTML5 only for a new product? - prateekdayal

I am working on a new SAAS product aimed at fortune 5 million (read Basecamp's target audience).<p>I was wondering if its ok to go HTML5/CSS3 only and not worry about internet explorer too much (IE6-8). This basically allows me to code better features more easily, ultimately resulting in a more usable product.<p>Would appreciate any feedback from HNers who are catering to the same market and have any stats to share. How widely is internet explorer used in fortune 5 million companies. Is it worth the extra development time and all the headaches anymore?<p>Thanks!
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ramanujam
With options like <http://www.modernizr.com/> and a handful of other fallback
solutions for IE, i think it is ok to go ahead with HTML5/CSS3. The part to
focus is not to ignore those who use IE. It is fine if the appearance is not
as classy as it is in modern browsers but compromising on the basic
functionality is definitely not a wise option.

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whatever_dude
Are you willing to ignore ~50% of the potential (mass) market?

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers>

And do you guys really think it's gonna change that much in 1 year?

<http://gs.statcounter.com/>

In the end it's about what your clients will use. If you're building something
for developers, sure, ignore IE. If you're building something to be used by
dumb (computer) terminals at big corporations or the public at large, then
it'd be a risky move.

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Kurashi
First of all, the HTML5 and CSS3 standards are not finished yet. It means
semantic values of tags, attributes, and even tag names, as well as their
functionalities, can change at any time, and other can appear. Thus, it seems
difficult to build an HTML5-only website for the general public.

Moreover, if this website is designed for a large company, there are chances
that its user base is still using IE (even IE6 maybe). In this case, HTML5 and
CSS3 are not welcome, even for IE8.

I would recommend to wait for IE9 release and the standards to be finished.
Maybe you can add extra content for people using modern web browsers, like the
<video> tag, but I think IE's user base is too large to be ignored.

~~~
shantanubala
My advice would be similar: if your app _needs_ the new features of HTML5, use
it. If not, just go with XHTML for now. It's easier to convert forward than
backward I'd say.

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petervandijck
Yes it is ok I think, if it really gives you an advantage in doing stuff
faster and better (ie. if your app needs it).

You can aim at early adopters the first two years, and by then, this stuff
will be mainstream. 37sigs took pretty much the same approach.

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saturdayplace
The HTML5 Shiv (<http://code.google.com/p/html5shiv/>) will convince IE >=6 to
handle HTML5 elements just fine.

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democracy
I would say develop for IE7 & Firefox, making sure stuff doesn't break (is
visible and somehow workable) in IE6 and Safari. That will cover 99.99 of your
future customers.

I guess you are in danger of having more headaches in the future with
bleeding-edge raw, not well supported things...

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ashamedlion
Definitely, it's very fine to use HTML5/CSS3. However, I think that it is
still a good idea to make it fall back nicely. Stuff like rounded corners
aren't too tragic to lose when viewing something from IE6-8, but I think it's
in your best interest to make sure that IE7 and 8 don't look dreadful. Reward
people for using better browsers, but don't punish them for using bad ones
either.

Completely ignore IE6, don't even worry about how it looks. Most startups
nowadays buy a computer and at least IE7 is on it. 2011 should be a big year
for HTML5, so aim towards the "future".

Don't worry about IE<9 too much, but certainly make sure it falls back
gracefully is what I'm saying. It's okay if it's not as pretty, as long as the
basics work.

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prateekdayal
Thanks for the reply. I was planning on using some of the features like
localStorage and notifications etc and not just css3 features for making
things look better. Nevertheless, I think its a good idea to have graceful
degradation.

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Isofarro
Use wrapper methods/classes for each of those HTML5 specific features.
Initially, probably for most of the early adopter phase you can get away with
using/expecting the HTML5 feature to be present. When you do need to support
browsers that don't support or brokenly support those features, you can add in
support at the wrapper level without having to do any serious refactoring.

Also, keep a careful eye on the HTML5 draft recommendations, just in case
features change their implementations. It's unlikely for a feature supported
in two independent modern browsers to change unless there's a fundamental
problem, or patent workaround needed.

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paraschopra
I think lots of enterprises still have IE only policy and we certainly see
that with Visual Website Optimizer (whose complex visual designer works even
on IE 7). I would certainly not risk discounting IE 6-8.

~~~
prateekdayal
Thanks for the reply Paras. Can you share what percentage of your traffic is
IE? (and also the breakdown between IE6 - 9)

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paraschopra
IE is actually 5% with 90% out of it IE8 and 10% IE7.

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varikin
But if you have specific companies as target customers, check what their IE
policy is. I know my previous employer is still on IE6 due to a bug tracking
system that only works on IE6. And I know other companies are in similar
situations.

Otherwise, I would suggest supporting IE7-9.

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nailer
Last place I worked for someone else (an investment bank) had both:

* web apps that only work on IE6

* web apps that did not work on IE6

simultaneously.

There was no official workaround, so everyone ran copies of Firefox on their
local desktop, with the help of IT, and ignored the architecture astronauts
setting the policy.

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mikebridgman
I wouldn't ignore IE when targeting fortune 5 million. Check out
html5boilerplate.com and css3pie.com to help achieve cross browser and
backwards compatibility. Good luck with your app!

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splatcollision
My opinion, being in a similar situation: Build for the future. My SAAS
product prototype currently works only in Safari/WebKit, since it's the only
browser that supports CSS3 Animations and CSS3 3d Transforms. I have not yet
launched anything so this is purely speculation, but I'm willing to wait a
year or two, since what I'm building will take some time for a single
developer (me!).

May not work for you, but it's my current philosophy.

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mtkd
If the features are significant enough to convince a CIO to change browser
than yes.

If the product is not ready for mainstream release for the next 12 or 24
months then yes.

If it's only slightly better than IE compatible alternatives and you want
people to use it today then no.

Personally I believe now is the time to start taking a risk with HTML5 only -
when it does go mainstream you'll be ahead of the pack.

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Subskii
You can have both, to an extent.

<http://html5boilerplate.com/>

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10smom
This is my plan! Just finding programmers that are on board is the problem for
me.

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dw0rm
Money of IE users doesn't differ from the money of people using modern
browsers.

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dtby
Why would you even ask this question? Either you are willing to size your
actual market or you are not. Nothing HN can do for you can possibly overcome
your predilection one way or another.

~~~
prateekdayal
I asked the question to get a sense of what percentage of typical B2B SAAS
customers use IE. Also if its shrinking significantly over time.

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dtby
You can do this research yourself. Or else, you don't really care.

