
Twilight of the Taj Mahal - fredley
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/twilight_of_the_taj
======
mdani
The need to maintain Taj is not new, in fact just a couple of decades after
its construction in 17th century, the dome leaked and it had to be repaired.
As Mughal reign fell into decline, the plunder began and the British were not
left behind. The precious stones were removed from inlays, furniture was
plundered and even plans were made to dismantle and auction the marble.

One must evaluate the decline of Taj in this broader context. It is currently
maintained by ASI and they have replaced many precious stones abd repaired the
Taj as much as they can. Unfortunately they do not always follow the same
medival construction methods and do not have adequate funds, so repairs do
fail.

Polloution is terrible in Delhi- Agra corridor but one must balance the needs
of the poor to earn a living vs. the needs of the tourists to see the Taj in
pristine condition. For this reason a blanket ban will not work in practice.

I think the BBC article is one sided, and the complexity of the situation
needs to be taken into account before painting a pessimistic picture.

Aga Khan trust has done excellent work in Humayun's tomb and I think it is a
better model for moving forward.

[https://youtu.be/eCLEFJU1p5A](https://youtu.be/eCLEFJU1p5A)

------
msiyer
The monument is being neglected. The current government has an attitude which
is very similar to ”not invented here" whereby anything not created by Hindus
is not to be valued: [https://www.firstpost.com/india/yogi-adiyanath-govt-in-
uttar...](https://www.firstpost.com/india/yogi-adiyanath-govt-in-uttar-
pradesh-ignoring-taj-mahal-betrays-its-myopic-view-of-history-4105095.html)

Hinduism is not a religion like Islam or Christianity. People in India behave
as if it is. Our past was glorious. It, however, cannot guarantee a similar
future unless people wake up.

~~~
jhacker123
> government has an attitude which is very similar to ”not invented here"
> whereby anything not created by Hindus is not to be valued

Curious, what are list which is created by Hindus which is well maintained and
valued by government?

~~~
kamaal
Another handle created merely minutes ago merely to reply to comments.

How frequently do you people monitor forums like HN? How many people work on
this? Must be a dream job to get paid to read HN all day.

~~~
pritishc
I don't know about the other guy, but hopefully you'll bear with me since I've
been on HN for a while now and wasn't paid by a government IT cell to comment
(since you seem to be implying that).

I am not sure what the parent commenter means by "Hinduism is not a religion
like Islam or Christianity". Do they mean that Hindus don't practice Abrahamic
principles? Because other than that, I'm not able to understand what they
mean.

------
azernik
This is a phase Europe went through as well - many of the great Medieval and
Renaissance cathedrals were badly damaged by the pollution of
industrialization, and had to be restored after pollution got under control.
Luckily, that seems to have worked out (at great expense), and was a major
rallying symbol for the environmentalist movement.

------
osrec
"Incredible India", as the country's tourism slogan claims, is fast
disappearing. I know this may get downvoted by fans of India, but I'm just
saying it as I see it. If it matters, I'm of Indian origin too.

First of all, India has everything it needs to be amazing. A young workforce,
driven, technical people, a nice selection of flourishing industries, bucket
loads of natural resources and abundant sources of renewable energy. Yet it
seems to make use of those things poorly.

Whenever I step into Delhi, or any major Indian city, I feel like I'm stepping
into chaos. The buildings are blackened and poorly planned. The sky,
perpetually grey with pollution. The traffic is idiotic. I'm convinced the
volume of cars is not the problem, but instead lack of road etiquette is to
blame. Every car, whether it be a cheap Honda or an expensive S-class has a
dent or two in it. Everyone's beeping horns for no apparent reason, and
crawling forward at ten meters a minute. It's a great metaphor for the country
as a whole - it appears loud and active, but the actual activity is somewhat
unsubstantial.

While I was in Delhi about 2 weeks ago, my father asked me to advise the 17
year old son of one of his employees. I met the guy - a studious, fiercly
competitive lad, but pleasant nonetheless. He wanted to become a doctor; I
asked him "why a doctor?". His response was that he could make a lot of money
in that field, specifically because people come to you when they're in need
and in trouble. I then asked him "What about helping people? Interest in the
subject itself? Passion?". He fobbed those questions off like they simply
didn't matter. (Aside: the medical system in India is ruthless - if you're
ill, you will likely be taken advantage of, and it can bring you and your
family to your knees very, very quickly. Even my own grandfather's gold rings
and dental filings mysteriously disappeared when he passed away in the most
reputable hospital in Delhi).

Why am I telling you the above story? Well, because I see this mindset almost
everywhere in India. Cold hearted profiteering is killing passion and genuine
interest amongst vast swathes of society. It's horribly unpleasant, and it
doesn't surprise me that things of cultural importance are taking such a back
seat. In the case of the Taj, I bet the money was available, but improperly
used or swindled away (adminstrative government officials in India are known
for their corruption - it's one of the perks of the job apparently). Anyway,
the crumbling Taj is simply another metaphor for the crumbling culture of
India, and it really does make me rather sad.

~~~
RcouF1uZ4gsC
>While I was in Delhi about 2 weeks ago, my father asked me to advise the 17
year old son of one of his employees. I met the guy - a studious, fiercly
competitive lad, but pleasant nonetheless. He wanted to become a doctor; I
asked him "why a doctor?". His response was that he could make a lot of money
in that field, specifically because people come to you when they're in need
and in trouble. I then asked him "What about helping people? Interest in the
subject itself? Passion?". He fobbed those questions off like they simply
didn't matter.

You have to have a certain level of wealth before you care about "passion".
Sometimes if you grow up seeing the consequences of being poor, the desire to
never go through that again becomes your passion. That is why you then
optimize your career to make money rather than follow your "passion".

~~~
osrec
I don't disagree with you, however, the individual in my story was not "poor"
\- he was part of India's middle class. His father was being paid reasonably
well at my dad's firm for the last 20+ years.

~~~
yumraj
So, while his father was being paid reasonably well according to you - he is
employed by your father's firm, which leads me to believe you grew up with
considerably more resources to be able to pursue your _passions_ then the
child in question. As such, the argument still applies that not everyone has
an ability or an opportunity to pursue their _passions_.

~~~
osrec
My personal situation, on a relative scale, is rather more tragic. I would
suggest you not to make that assumption about my upbringing, for you would be
quite incorrect.

~~~
yumraj
Fair enough, _mea culpa_.

However, my argument (stated differently) that _passion is a luxury that not
everyone can afford_ , still stands.

~~~
osrec
I don't think you understand what I'm saying. In a sense, I'm agreeing with
you.

Passion is a luxury in India, yes, but because of the way society has been set
up. We need to change things so as to nurture the passions of our people,
rather than have them scrambling for basic necessities. I believe we have all
the ingredients to make it happen, but seem to lack the will or a plan.

~~~
yumraj
I think where I'm disagreeing with you is I believe passion is a luxury due to
economic constraints rather than an artifact of societal setup, at least in
the modern times.

In historic times, and to a lesser extent even now, careers were decided based
on family, so there yes societal setup led to suppression of passion. However,
even then how much of that was due to economic reasons and how much societal
if a difficult question to answer, at least for me.

But, OTOH, I do agree that India has all the ingredients to become much
greater - how do we get there is a much more complicated topic.

------
nitwit005
It might be under-repaired, but entering "Taj Mahal maintenance" into Google
shows there are tons of travel articles on their maintenance efforts, and
which parts will be under repair when. It seems a bit questionable that this
is totally omitted.

~~~
electriclove
This is from the BBC which has a definite negative reporting bias on anything
to do with India.

~~~
khrm
Wrong. BBC is as much fair on this issue as Indian Media state or Supreme
Court. [https://www.indiatoday.in/mail-today/story/sc-holds-asi-
resp...](https://www.indiatoday.in/mail-today/story/sc-holds-asi-responsible-
for-taj-mahal-s-upkeep-1300907-2018-07-31) Also, BBC is quite fair, unlike
Indian Media which doesn't have the guts to take Modi in to account for not
holding a single press conference in his 4 year rule.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2sc9A2aVtM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2sc9A2aVtM)

------
pastelsky
This, even as the state government is spending resources on changing names of
cities all over the state, and ironically, `Taj Mahal` itself.

------
hahla
It's crazy to me that if we disregard all of the historical importance, the
government still doesn't have the foresight to invest in maintaining it's
number one tourist destination in the country. However, I fear throwing money
at the problem is a temporary solution for the actual structure where fixing
the surrounding pollution is more important.

~~~
balladeer
Money is thrown at issues in India when there’s a direct individual (or a few)
beneficiary from that money throwing and the solving of that problem was not
even the last point on the agenda.

So I’ll present an example. Let’s talk about a 10km road that needs repair.
The discussion would start at points like how much the contractors would make,
what will be the cut of tie engineer, chief engineer, MLA, MP, district
administration if they are involved. Whether a cut has to go to the CM too? Or
tje _party fund_. Things of practical interests.

How strong the road will be, how safe it would be, quality assurance etc are a
matter of formality and routine which also ensures there’s another repair
after a year or two and everyone is happy again.

However if the intention is to really solve a problem then it takes years -
committee after committee, studies after studies - became no one is
interested.

------
bobokanta
"The Taj is so wasteful, so decadent and in the end so cruel that it is
painful to be there for very long. This is an extravagance that speaks of the
blood of the people." VS Naipaul

~~~
sremani
Irrespective whether it bankrupted the Moghuls and made the successor of the
throne, epitome of rape, pillage and plunder.. those dues have been paid, and
there is no un-turning.

As repulsive the history behind the Taj and its consequences are, ruining it
with a cocktail of incompetence, corruption and apathy is not the step
forward.

~~~
FraaJad
"dues have been paid". was it a direct desposit, sir?

------
jeremysalwen
Seems surprising to me that the supreme court is so involved in this issue. In
the United States, the supreme court tries its hardest to avoid answering a
question if it can, and certainly tries to avoid anything that looks like it's
writing a new law.

Can someone who is more knowledgeable comment on this?

~~~
svat
In India, the Supreme Court is enthusiastically involved in many things. It
considers it to be its job to keep the government honest, etc. See this blog
post on the tenure of the most recent Chief Justice of India, by a lawyer and
expert: [https://indconlawphil.wordpress.com/2018/10/01/ends-
without-...](https://indconlawphil.wordpress.com/2018/10/01/ends-without-
means-outcomes-without-reasons-a-look-back-at-dipak-misra-and-the-
constitution/) (See also:
[https://indconlawphil.wordpress.com/2018/10/30/constituting-...](https://indconlawphil.wordpress.com/2018/10/30/constituting-
constitution-benches-the-dipak-misra-years/) )

~~~
jeremysalwen
It seems to me based on the articles you linked that the Indian Supreme Court
flagrantly disregards the constitution regularly!

------
NTDF9
The problem with maintenance in India is lack of will power in local
governments (not national government).

State and local governments in India are filled with incompetent fools (pardon
my French) who only want the power and fame. They're often uneducated, often
unexposed to the rest of the world and have the ego of a supreme emperor to do
anything that would improve their citizen's lives.

Education is a major problem in India. Until they achieve an entire generation
of great education all the way down to villages, this will not improve.

------
sxp62000
What a shame, it's literally falling apart. I remember visiting the Taj Mahal
back in the day (15-20 years ago) on a full moon night, do they still open on
certain nights? Imagine how it would shimmer in the dark, if they still had
all the precious stones encrusted in the marble!

------
fellellor
>In 1998 the Supreme Court established a special exclusion area to keep heavy
industry at a distance from the monument. The Taj Trapezium Zone (TTZ) covers
an area of more than 10,400 sq km.

How was this ever going to be workable in a country like India, with so much
unemployment and massive requirement for industry, power, infrastructure etc.
In these scant conditions, obviously there will be little resources for
cleaner, greener alternatives to fulfill economic requirements. And because
people are resourceful they will make do with whatever is at hand which for
example are, unfortunately, the dirtier diesel generators, coal fired plants,
and polluting vehicles. All this is tragec to be sure, but people will choose
their own livelihoods over a beautiful mausoleum.

------
conroy
The Taj Mahal was the highlight of my trip to India. It surpassed all
expectations. I hope that the Indian government can figure out how to save it
before it's too late, but this article gives me little to no faith.

------
thrower123
So, the marble is deteriorating because of acid rain, I presume? At least it
hasn't been looted like so many wonders of the world. I imagine the pyramids
must have been breathtaking with their original sheathing.

------
ihtjmbbc123
in actual fact internet hindus complain the asi spends too much money on this
and not on actual archaeological research

my opinion this should be left to private muslim groups who might be
interested in its preservation

hindus found out its history which was suppressed by marxists and are not
likely to keep paying for it

cultural death by tourists of the kind seen in japan nowadays is not desirable
either

~~~
statguy
> my opinion this should be left to private muslim groups who might be
> interested in its preservation

What does it say about a country when a large number of its people don't want
to maintain its most famous monument because it happens to have been built by
a king of the minority religion?

What about other monuments - should the maintenance of India Gate be left to
private Christian groups?

> hindus found out its history which was suppressed by marxists and are not
> likely to keep paying for it

What was this history? I hope you are not referring to something like
[https://www.booksfact.com/archeology/taj-mahal-original-
name...](https://www.booksfact.com/archeology/taj-mahal-original-name-tejo-
mahalaya-ancient-siva-temple-built-1155-ad.html) a theory being pushed by
charlatan historians, and eagerly lapped up by internet hindus who suffer from
a deep insecurity that India's most famous monument happens to be a "Muslim"
monument.

~~~
ihtjmbbc123
it says that hindus dont want to pay to glorify islamic invasions which led to
massive loot plunder and genocide of hindus

same for the european colonial loot and plunder

christians didnt even apologize for goa inquisition

------
mc32
Though maintenance is an issue, I’ve been told another issue is craftsmanship.
It was slapped together by slaves to serve as a tomb for the third wife of an
emperor who had a harem of 2000 women yet saw it fit to drag his favorite into
the battlefield for his comfort (she succumbed to complications bearing no. 14
in the 19th year of her marriage). They might as well let it crumble. It's a
grotesque monument which tourists adore.

~~~
mirimir
Shoddy construction or not, it is a beautiful design. Can you recommend a
source for that? I can imagine that he was in a hurry to have it built before
he died.

~~~
mc32
Not really. Just a comment by a visitor. It’s said it took thousands of slaves
about 20 years to build but aside from the architect they may not have had
expertise.

