
Fake job reference service - fnazeeri
http://careerexcuse.com/
======
byrneseyeview
There's an interesting spin on this in Brooklyn's Russian immigrant community:
there are companies that will give you fake references--and a crash course in
the job you're supposed to have done.

Apparently they do a pretty good job. Since immigrants from the former USSR
are usually pretty smart, skilled, and hard-working, they can be very rigorous
and not lose students. An acquaintance did this many years ago: she learned
SQL Server, and got references for a couple years of SQL Server experience,
and now works at a Fortune 500 company.

~~~
danilocampos
From a strict career perspective, this feels like it could be more valuable
than college.

~~~
byrneseyeview
It's basically a way to hack the college > HR interface.

~~~
MortenK
It's basically fraud.

~~~
bioh42_2
Is it? If traditional college guaranteed excellent this would be fraud. Think
of money vs. fake money.

But both college and experience are no guarantee of anything. They are more
like a faint hope. Hopefully someone with this resume will be as good as the
resume suggests they might be!

Now on the other, if this hard crash course + hard working intelligent people
results in true valuable skills, then is it fraud? Isn't who ever hires them
getting exactly what they hoped they would get? It's like someone slips you
Australian dollars instead of US dollars, but enough of them that even after
exchange fees you're left with exactly the amount of money you wanted.

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nickbp
I think this is a side effect of employers who worry more about credentials
than talent.

~~~
jonkelly
Exactly. I'm almost uncomfortable thinking about how many of these things turn
into really embarrassing live interviews.

"So, Ms. Jones, I've never heard of the Acme, Inc., perhaps you can tell me
more about it?"

"Just call the toll-free number to talk to my supervisor!"

"I'd rather have you tell me about the company, what it does and the specifics
of your role there."

"I'll be leaving now."

~~~
rdtsc
This doesn't help unless there is some kind of black list of applicants that
companies can share and check for references. It would have notes like
"Candidate X seems to have faked his references...". Otherwise, besides losing
that particular job position, the candidate would just move on to the next one
where they will be less rigorous about asking such questions.

But then of course, if the candidate actually knows their stuff, what does it
matter if they could find someone to provide a fluffy reference? Most people
can find such a reference. Why not just test the candidate, talk to them, take
them to lunch, look at the portfolio of work, do a debug session, a white-
board session with them and see what happens?

------
sixtypoundhound
This is depressing, but I've personally worked with at least two VP level
(200K+ salary roles, heavy hitters) individuals with diploma mill degrees.
Noticed one on linkedin after he was dismissed for other reasons - the college
sounded unfamilar, did a quick search on google and... Well, Well, What do we
have here...

The other cute little "education" scam I've seen is the Ivy League executive
education courses - you will see some senior line managers out there claiming
post-undergrad experience at Harvard, Wharton, and U Chicago. These are
frequently 1 - 3 week "exec ed" programs which they then spin as "mini-MBA" or
(ratcheting up the deception level) either business degrees/programs or an
"executive MBA".

The resume process is inherantly broken - many resumes are outright lies, many
are poorly written, the balance of the candidates are often interchangable
within certain broad sets of skills. Look at the flow of talent within
existing leadership teams at major companies - IT PM's <-> IT Ops, Developers
frequently learn new platforms, many folks moving between technology and near-
business roles (such as process improvement and process management roles)...
The external recruiting process is sufficiently broken that we can't do this
with external candidates.

We're in the fall back world - most senior level hiring at my current employer
(large company) occurs through either: \- Personal Relationships (referral
from a "made man") \- "Feeder Companies" (a big 5 consulting firm)

Suspect you can't use the fake referral unless you're either very junior (lots
of institutional scruity but very little personal checking by the hiring
manager) or trying to get into a space where they are sufficiently desparate
for talent that they don't have time/interest for a deep check..

------
Corvus
Very believable as a tactic to get around the practice of only hiring already-
employed candidates, mentioned here:
[http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405297020387240457425...](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203872404574257983795638374.html)

~~~
tzs
I think I'd rather go with claiming I just got off a contract for a defense
contractor, and an NDA prevents me disclosing who it was or what I worked on,
other than to say that it involved the same skills that are listed on my
resume for my last non-secret employer.

That seems safer.

~~~
storborg
And totally believable... not.

~~~
elai
Doesn't have to be a defense contractor. I've signed a contract that basically
did not allow me to disclose what or who I was working for to create a
software product for a small tv production company. (It fell through)

~~~
jonah
Same here. I have done work for a number of large companies in software,
healthcare, banking, etc. which I can't talk about. It leaves a grey hole in
my portfolio.

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d2
If you use this service you forfeit most of your legal rights as an employee.

In general, if you lie on your resume, you cannot later sue your employer
claiming you were wronged. For example, if you were terminated for cause from
a prior position and fail to disclose it you lose your right to sue your
employer. This is called the "after-acquired evidence" theory or doctrine.

A few other examples that constitute lying:

 _Not putting a former employer on a resume

_ Making false statements about education, experience or holding professional
licenses

 _Concealing or failing to reveal a former felony conviction, and

_ Making up a college degree during an interview.

EDIT: Someone asked for a source. Here are two:

[http://employment.findlaw.com/employment/employment-
employee...](http://employment.findlaw.com/employment/employment-employee-
hiring/employment-employee-hiring-resume.html)

and

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disparate_treatment#After-
Acqui...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disparate_treatment#After-
Acquired_Evidence)

Many more available from Google:

<http://tinyurl.com/4972e2m>

Extract from the Disparate treatment entry on wikipedia:

If an employer takes an adverse employment action against an employee for a
discriminatory reason and later discovers a legitimate reason which it can
prove would have led it to take the same action, the employer is still liable
for the discrimination, but the relief that the employee can recover may be
limited. McKennon v. Nashville Banner Publishing Co., 513 U.S. 352 (1995). In
general, the employee is not entitled to reinstatement or front pay, and the
back pay liability period is limited to the time between the occurrence of the
discriminatory act and the date the misconduct justifying the job action is
discovered. McKennon, 513 U.S. at 361-62.

~~~
smanek
Do you have a source on that? I'm not a lawyer, but some of that sounds at
odds with other case law I've seen.

It sounds particularly ludicrous to suggest that omitting a former employer
from a resume is grounds for losing legal standing for some types of claims.
For example, I worked at Radio Shack and The Princeton Review in high school,
and don't list those on my resume since they aren't particularly relevant to
the sort of work I do now.

~~~
wmboy
Yeah but we're talking about purposely providing false information. No one
cares that you leave off irrelvant work history.

~~~
salemh
Financial firms do. Or defense contractors or others who require a 10 year
background check.

------
hsdbhysdb
"Landing a job is 70% presentation and 30% actual skills and abilities. In
fact, the candidate who gets the job is not always the most qualified; rather,
the candidate with the best presentation will get hired."

So true...

~~~
marvin
That said, though, having the skills needed to present yourself in the best
possible light is a good life skill to have. You might not want to work in a
place where this is necessary to get hired, but it is always a good thing to
be able to make a good impression when you have to.

I've always felt that applying for a job is just like dating. You have to make
a perfect initial impression, followed by actually delivering the goods when
you've got the foot in the door.

~~~
danenania
In dating the further 'making an impression' is from my mind the better it
goes. I think this is true of most encounters. Trying to be perfect will just
make you tense. Relax and be yourself. No one's expecting perfect. The less
you try to sell yourself the better you come across.

~~~
marvin
Yeah, if you look like you sell yourself, you'll just appear desperate. You
can still put an effort into making a good impression, though. But I agree
that it's better when it comes naturally.

------
natnat
The "funeral excuse" section of the website has a logo for "Fisher & Sons
Funeral Home" that's appropriated directly from the HBO show Six Feet Under.

~~~
redthrowaway
Well I suppose it would be unreasonable to expect a company that peddles in
faked credentials to create their own logo.

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DrStalker
I've always thought of a reference chack as a way to make sure someone has at
least two friends that are willing to say nice things about them.

~~~
varjag
Still, if you come to hire, always follow up the references. Always.

~~~
wizard_2
If they lie about anything on their resume my company walks away. The last guy
I interviewed we talked for my alloted time and it was clear he wasn't quite
up to par but I wanted to know how much he knew. The next guy after me sent
him home within minutes because there were flat out lies on his resume.

One may not imply the other (lies !== bad employee) but it's a red flag.

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montibbalt
It's really not too unbelievable. Unethical, on the other hand...

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notrealaccount
I have also seen people use such a service for University admissions. Said
individuals got into very prestigious places aided by this too.

(posted anonymously)

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benatkin
I don't find this _unbelievable_ or even shocking because I've heard of these:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diploma_mill>

I'd find it shocking if someone I trusted used a fake reference service or a
diploma mill, but it's not at all shocking that these exist.

~~~
rdtsc
However did they actually know their stuff or did they fake that too? If the
person is 100% proficient and knows the domain well, I don't see why the
diploma is even that necessary.

Don't get me wrong, we all bought into the "education is vital for survival"
and I worked hard in college for that summa cum laude honors, but in the end
it is probably open source work, code samples and my behavior during the
interview that got me the job.

------
philthy
Been going on for years, sometimes referred to as reference agencies. This
looks like a pretty poor example IMO.

~~~
Luyt
Oh! I thought it was a sarcastic joke site ;-)

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throwaway203299
Do they write the resume too and provide interview coaching? One time I had a
manager at a major financial institution offer to hire me, and told me he
would make sure I got a good performance reviews. However, he wanted a
kickback of like 5% of my salary. Something like this will just help get past
a pesky HR department.

------
rabble
I've thought of doing something like this for years, you could do job
references, former landlords for rent, etc... the list goes on and on. I just
couldn't bring myself to build it because of that tiny thing with not being
ethical.

~~~
noarchy
There's money to be made in this, so someone will build it eventually. And if
it works, what does this tell us about the hiring process? We can argue that
fake references are unethical, of course, but I think that this lets us know
that the system that allows them to succeed is fundamentally broken.

------
carterac
LinkedIn and the social graph in general will really help employers avoid
these scams. Every reference I've done is with someone who I have significant
connection with between the different graphs of LinkedIn, Twitter, and others.

Of course, this is the NYC tech community so doesn't apply to 99% of hires
that happen... yet.

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dblock
Would you sometimes _prefer_ an incompetent candidate who went to the lengths
of using CareerExcuse to a _maybe competent_ one? At least you know exactly
what you're getting.

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gnufs
There's an interview with the founder of the site at
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJhV23vs8uo>

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Newky
Maybe I'm reading this all wrong from their user's perspective, but has to be
depressing to get a job based on such falseness.

I'm someone who works off the confidence from previous experience and having
to stoop to this would affect my performance.

------
skittlebrau
It's probably best to just ignore references unless they are negative (or come
from someone you trust).

------
Vivtek
I like how the example company for consultants is consistently misspelled.
(Distibution...)

------
barista
Well the real life references aren't 100% beivable either. I have been asked
more than once by my colleagues to speak refer them regarding the work that
they have not done. Or role that they have never played and this is not just
for the referrals but for public sites such as linkedin.

The Philosophy that I always recommend s hire slow fire fast. You take time
interviewng the person, probing them if you feel something sounds fishy. Give
them a chance to prove themselves and if it doesnt work out don't hesitate to
fire in the first year. A few months is a good time to understand how a person
works and what their calibre is.

~~~
electromagnetic
I know here in Ontario that you're on probation for the first 3 months and
your employer doesn't need to justify a reason to dismiss you. So I really
don't think a 'reference mill' or a 'diploma mill' would even be capable of
working here as you can hire anyone who sounds good and if they turn out to be
crappy, you can just fire them.

I don't really see this as being useful unless you're already talented. IE my
brother is a great programmer and has been asked to speak at conferences, but
because he never got a degree he has no hope at certain companies, which IMO
is absolutely moronic.

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VB6_Foreverr
Their second product could be extortion of their first product's customers.
Synergy!

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TheSwede75
I'd rather just continue working with something I enjoy and use
'fakecareer.com' instead :-)

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originalgeek
This is about 5 days early.

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Garbage
<title>CareerExcuse,com</title>

I am assuming that semicolon instead of a dot is a typo.

