
How a small streaming site became the Netflix for indie film - antr
http://www.theverge.com/2015/10/6/9463225/mubi-streaming-service-independent-films-efe-cakarel-interview
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dasil003
Whoah, it's awesome to see this posted here in my native habitat! I've spent
the last 8 years of my life building MUBI as Co-Founder and CTO (even longer
than I've been on HN!). Please AMA.

~~~
davidovitch
Only discovered MUBI today via HN. Looks great! There is one annoyance (which
I also have with Netflix): I live in Denmark, but I am not fluent in Danish.
Not all your movies have English subtitles though, so how can I watch anything
else except the three languages I master (English, French and Dutch)? Are
licensing issues preventing you from offering English subtitles on all your
movies as a default?

~~~
dasil003
In short, yes. Language/subtitle licensing is a mine field. Often times the
small local distributors we deal with don't acquire anything but the local
language rights, so it becomes almost impossible to go upstream and get the
remaining rights even though we may well have the assets for use in other
countries.

We are doing what we can to move the ball forward on this issue industry-wide,
but historical rights arrangements are working against us here.

~~~
crucialfelix
This is also our major issue with MUBI. We love the film selection, but we
live in Germany. When we want to watch a French film, its overdubbed in
German.

Netflix is also odd about this but usually we can get German subtitles for any
film and choose the audio with original language. Ideally we should be able to
select any language that there are available subtitles for. Why restrict it by
region ?

~~~
NolF
The producers likely have distribution agreements on a by-country basis. So,
for example WB cannot distribute <movie> in Germany because GEMA has the
rights. But GEMA didn't buy the rights for the English subtitles. I imagine
technically WB could then sell subtitles rights for <movie> in Germany but it
would be a pain because maybe those subtitles were done by <subcompany> for
licence in America and Oceania... etc.

~~~
crucialfelix
GEMA is a collection society for musical performing and mechanical
reproduction rights. Equivalent to BMI / ASCAP. They have nothing to do with
films.

They certainly do not buy rights for anything at all. They represent copyright
holders and collect fees and distribute them.

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wfn

      MUBI's curatorial approach stands in sharp contrast to major streaming services
      like Netflix, Hulu, and Amazon, which have amassed large libraries and deliver
      personalized recommendations based on algorithms. MUBI's human-curated selection
      takes a lot of that choice away, and Cakarel thinks viewers are better off
      for it.
    
      "Think about your own Netflix experience and how frustrating it is — how
      long it takes you to find a film that you want to watch," says Cakarel.
      "It doesn't work. It categorically doesn't work."
    

While I get what they're saying, I still wonder if it wouldn't be interesting
to try out some personal recommendation algorithms/systems on their user
ratings dataset. (After reviewing their T&C, I've actually crawled through
their data (more like, their backend exposes neat API endpoints that are not
part of any formal API (officially they don't have one)..) some time ago, and
am still curious to just try out some stuff from _scikit-learn_.

Maybe someone has thought/done the same? When contacted, the MUBI team (IIRC)
basically said they're not interested in that as of now.

~~~
dasil003
Little known fact, but we did start out with the goal of amassing a large
library, and we even put significant effort with some former Netflix-prize
winners in building a recommendation engine.

The first big problem, which you see on Netflix as well, is that a
recommendation engine really falls off in efficiency when your selection is
thin, and the original dream of streaming every film is never going to happen
because of a price squeeze from the content side (hence Netflix moving into
production and focusing on exclusive content).

The second, perhaps bigger problem (particularly for our audience) is that
there is only so much metadata that you can pump into a film database that
will tell you categorically if someone wants to watch it. People like to be
delighted by discovering a new film, not because it is somehow akin to 20
other films they liked, but because of where they are in their life now, and
the contemporary meaning of that film. I know curation has become possibly
_the_ most annoying buzzword in SV circles lately, but it has been our
approach since 2007, real actual curation by human beings—not algorithms that
purport to be "curatorial" on a pitch deck.

~~~
wfn
Regarding your second point, I really understand this position - fair enough
(re. zeitgeist and personal point in life of someone looking for films and
rating films, etc.) I just wonder if it wouldn't be interesting to spend some
time looking at recommendation systems which are not just simply about
intersecting users' votes and presenting something "just what you've recently
liked." But this would be more of a playful experimentation which is more
hobbyist in nature, for sure.

~~~
6502nerdface
What, so like, "as an early thirty-something who just found out you're about
to become a father, you may enjoy films X, Y, Z"? To really get people's life
chapters and such you'd have to have massive metadata about them beyond the
scope of a video service. Google/FB could do it, though.

~~~
wfn
It was more a comment about how considerations such as this make collaborative
recommendation systems precisely less useful. Regarding rec.systems that move
beyond naive rating/like intersections between users (such as e.g. Jaccard
similarity index), I think there could be interesting algorithms developed
that make use of assigned/curated item tags together with collaborative
filtering/recommendations (e.g. something that last.fm has considered (or has
been considering) - there's an entire field of research for just music
recommendation systems.)

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gjkood
What is that line in the Pink Floyd song? "I got thirteen channels of shit on
the tv to choose from..".

Netflix is beginning to resemble that. I mean I love Netflix but its becoming
a little hit-or-miss. The alternatives (proprietary content from HBO Now) are
becoming more alluring.

Anyway I just signed up a year's subscription with MUBI. I haven't had a
chance to see "Junun" yet, but I just recently watched "The Reluctant
Fundamentalist" by Mira Nair. I was blown away by the quality of the
Music/Soundtrack in that.

I don't know the precise style of music in the movie (Qawwali/Hindustani???)
but I have never heard anything so amazing.

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bazzargh
I used to use mubi back in the Auteurs days but it was frustrating that the
selection was so much smaller in the UK than the US (I recall it being around
10% of the films; anything that had had a mainstream cinema release was
missing). They still seem to have that restriction, but they've taken the
'show me what's available in my area' filter away.

I can understand why they'd do that, but it feels a bit off being asked to
sign up for a service where the films advertised on the front page aren't
available.

~~~
lemiffe
Exactly the same issue, kind of fell off my radar as a result of that, now I'm
curious to see the selection.

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pmontra
"This film is not currently playing on MUBI but 30 other great films are. See
what's NOW SHOWING"

Why? That was for a movie that I could pay to watch but they don't let me
watch it. I wonder how they could be in business. Still they are so it's
probably a sensible choice that I fail to understand.

~~~
dasil003
We recognize the confusion this causes in the UI, but indeed there is a valid
reason for it. Since the beginning we have streamed globally, but a different
selection in each country. Since we have editorial and social features on the
site as well, we can't just have pages appear and disappear from the site like
Netflix does. All these pages exist as connective tissue between users in
different countries (which becomes even more important with links shared on
social networks). Even if social features and film discussions don't interest
you, clicking Add to Watchlist tells us you _want_ to watch that and helps in
our acquisitions and programming process.

~~~
pmontra
Thanks for answering.

So the movie I wanted to see is currently available in another country or has
been available in mine but not now. The UI could be tweaked to explain that
and not (negatively) surprise customers but it seems that you already know
that. Probably you have plans to improve it.

Your approach is similar to TV, a list of programs to choose from but not the
full catalog. Given these terms I'm not sure I'll ever be a customer but this
business model seems to be serving you well so I can hardly criticize it.

------
reubenmorais
Sounds like Netflix needs to take a lesson from Valve and let its customers do
the curation for them.

~~~
rocky1138
I've been really impressed with Netflix's automatic suggestion algorithm. It
frequently guesses my rating correctly and shows me movies that I do actually
find interesting.

~~~
MichaelGG
Wow. They routinely recommend bad for me. I even tried going along with a lot
of their suggestions. Spent a day trying that out. It sucked. Now they show up
in my "Continue Watching" list which requires going into preferences to
remove.

Now, Netflix doesn't even pretend to recommend good stuff. The "Recommended
For You" sort gives me items that Netflix itself suggests I will rate 1-star.
I must sort by rating to see the better stuff. And even then, most of the top
items I've already seen. I cancelled.

I used to pay Netflix (before streaming) while not receiving any DVDs. The
recommendations were good enough for me to decide what to download. Not so
much now.

~~~
rocky1138
Maybe the algorithm is different here in Canada? I wonder why we're getting so
different of results.

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thirdsun
I used Mubi a long time a go, but somehow forgot about them - probably due to
their limited selection in Germany. The service itself always impressed me
though - a service obviously run by true enthusiasts and aficionados.

Glad to see they are still around.

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smazga
Why won't they (mubi.com) tell me how much it costs?

No prices listed, and clicking links that seem like they would take me to that
info send me to the 'subscribe now' nag dialog.

That's close-tab-and-forget-about-it behavior.

~~~
navait
It's 4.99/Mo which it clearly says after the sign up dialog.

~~~
detaro
AFTER the sign up is a bit late...

~~~
Arnt
Maybe.

Until quite recently there was a forum and such things, which you could use
for free. Ninetysome per cent of the users never paid anything, and
surprisingly many didn't know that Mubi offered any paid service.

But yes, nowadays I think it would make more sense to make the price tag for
the paid service more visible.

~~~
detaro
Yes, giving the website a quick glance now it looks like a web shop/streaming
portal: products and user reviews and I wouldn't even have expected you could
create free account, much less it to be useful.

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niels_olson
I subscribed to MUBI for a while, and just never watched the films that were
available. Some are quite risque for a dad with two pre-teens at home. But
overall, I just don't watch movies at home. There's always something else to
do. I hope they stay in business long enough for me to get to the point that I
have time to participate.

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qq66
> "We didn't even know [he was a member] because he was using an email that
> was not descriptive, and he was not using his real name," Cakarel says.

This implies that the company looks through their subscriber rolls for famous
film-industry personalities, which is an unusual thing to glibly admit to.

~~~
Arnt
It's a bit more prosaic: Film people at Mubi attend film events along with
other film people, shake hands and exchange pleasantries.

~~~
Arnt
Let me add to that. Starting from my own profile page at mubi, it took three
clicks and a bit of scrolling to get to
[https://mubi.com/users/59108](https://mubi.com/users/59108) — people know
each other.

------
dethstar
I really like Mubi, I just don't keep it all year like I do with Netflix
because of their one film a day model.

------
jo6gwb
The list of movies looks fantastic, and considering that The Big Lebowski is
leaving Netflix I may just sign up.

------
danso
> _MUBI has spent years cultivating that audience with a selection of artsy,
> obscure films that don 't usually appear on Netflix or Hulu. (It originally
> launched under the name "The Auteurs," before rebranding in 2010 as MUBI — a
> play on accented pronunciations of "movie," and after a city in Nigeria.) On
> Monday, the titles available on the company's US site included Bernardo
> Bertolucci's 1970 classic The Conformist, and Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance, by
> Chan-wook Park. Occasionally, it features more mainstream movies like Sin
> City, currently available on the French site, though the majority are far
> more obscure. A new title is added every day as another drops out, meaning
> that only 30 films are available for streaming at any given time._

In defense of Netflix (not that the "Goliath" in this comparison needs
defenders)...but "Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance" has been available on streaming
Netflix for, as far as I remember, the time that I've been a customer, which
was basically when streaming started. "Mr. Vengeance" is the first in "The
Vengeance Trilogy" that includes the more well-known "Oldboy" [1] and
"Sympathy for Lady Vengeance"...I think the entire trilogy has been on Netflix
for years (including the regrettable American remake of Oldboy, but can't
fault Netflix for having it...)

Even as Netflix's blockbuster selection has faded (with the ending of the
Starz deal, and in comparison to HBONow)...I've never had a complaint about
their selection of the most well-known and recent foreign indies. "Let the
Right One In", "The Hunt", "Force Majeure", The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo
trilogy...though sure, they could always have more (and obviously, I don't
know enough of the foreign scene to know all of the gems that they don't
have).

But I imagine the problem for Netflix isn't that they do a shitty job of
curation...but that the deals end up not being financially valuable to them,
as it was in the Starz case. Ang Lee's movies ("Crouching Tiger, Hidden
Dragon" and "Lust, Caution") were long-time selections, but I've just noticed
they are no longer available for streaming.

edit: if you liked Oldboy, Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance is definitely worth
checking out. But whereas Oldboy was entertaining on top of being emotionally
extreme...I'd argue "Mr. Vengeance" is much more of an artistic achievement,
but at the cost of being "entertaining". In fact, I get a little ill at the
thought of re-watching it, even though I own it on DVD.

[1]
[http://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/oldboy-2005](http://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/oldboy-2005)
\-- Ebert's review here is so glowing that not only did it get me to seek out
Oldboy, but it changed the way I think of foreign movies in comparison to
Hollywood.

~~~
Steko
Have they added the Korean language version of (the original) Oldboy to
Netflix or is it still just the dubbed version? I got tired of checking. Funny
was just thinking about this last night when their recommendation engine threw
Drunken Master II at me and the only option was English dub.

