
Officer of China’s People’s Liberation Army Arrested at LAX - ycombonator
https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndca/pr/officer-china-s-people-s-liberation-army-arrested-los-angeles-international-airport
======
dirtyid
That's... a very forthcoming spy.

For additional context: this is part of US DoJ Initiative to target Chinese
Nationals for economic espionage. Meng / Huawei was extradited under
initiative scoped only for Chinese Nationals. Corporations typically pay fines
for sanction busting, but Chinese executives are (now) targeted for
extradition for similar crime. Related, few months ago, DoJ also lumped RICO
charges against Huawei. Typically reserved for individuals not entire
corporate entities. Basically US DoJ is using every tool in the box to
disproportionately prosecute Chinese actors. Reflected in analysis that
individuals swept up under this initiative receive greater sentencing than
norm. Good recent talk on the subject:

Margaret Lewis | The U.S. Department of Justice's China Initiative
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9I2TZzcv8g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9I2TZzcv8g)

This guy could be spilling beans for lighter sentencing. But also likely a
defection to drum up support for the narrative. His confessions like "level 9
technician" that works for university lab is eerily close to "anecdotes" I've
proponents of the initiate echo over the last few years. It almost feels like
a manufactured consent soundbite, eerily repeating heads for someone following
the subject. My understanding is there's moderate pushing back at how
uncomfortably red-scare and racial coldwar 2.0 policies under this admin's
China-hawks has been. Ultimately it may be counterproductive... but election
coming up, so time to build that hard on China narrative.

~~~
737min
Are you saying that the two countries are not enemies?

~~~
dirtyid
Well the spectrum is between enemy and competitor. Hawks are arguing former,
doves and moderators the latter. Policies and tolerance towards costs will
differ depending on position i.e. there's room for cooperation on some issues
if not viewed purely as enemy. Partner is definitely off the table though.

~~~
737min
There is always some room for cooperation, even in the middle of a cold or s
hot war, but it’s easier if sn enemy is defined as such.

------
olalonde
> Wang is charged with visa fraud, in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 1546(a). If
> convicted, he faces a maximum statutory penalty of ten years in prison and a
> fine of $250,000.

So lying on a visa application is worse than immigrating illegally? Doesn't
illegal immigration just get you deported?

~~~
aspenmayer
Gaming the system or otherwise exploiting it is more malicious than
circumventing it. It’s the old school version of laws like CFAA, which make
explicitly super-illegal things which are already implicitly or explicitly
illegal, with sometimes unforeseen consequences.

------
dkdk8283
> Also according to court documents, Wang provided information to CBP that he
> had been instructed by his supervisor, the director of his military
> university lab in the PRC, to observe the layout of the UCSF lab and bring
> back information on how to replicate it in China.

China’s intellectual property theft is really getting out of hand. It’s about
we take a stand in one way or another.

~~~
bfieidhbrjr
Maybe.

On the other hand, if they think that they'll catch up by replicating things
in the united states down to the layout of research labs... then that's kind
of hilarious and they've really missed the point. It's like the Soviets
copying the space shuttle and concorde. They're copying the wrong things, too
late.

~~~
DevKoala
> Wang similarly told his supervising UCSF professor that he had duplicated
> some of the work of that professor at the lab in China. Some of the work of
> the UCSF lab was funded by grants from the United States Department of
> Health and Human Services, National Institutes of Health (NIH). Wang also
> wiped his personal phone of WeChat messaging content earlier the morning he
> arrived at LAX.

They are being thorough.

~~~
bfieidhbrjr
Everyone has OpSec.

And then he told them everything during an interview. Or maybe it's all lies
to hide something else. Who knows.

~~~
a012
He's a "Level 9" PLA officer (apx. Major officer), if he spilled that out
easily to CBP, definitely there's something more suspicious than just copy-cat
labs design.

~~~
rdtsc
The official name for that is I believe
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_hangout](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_hangout)

But something doesn't add up to him just confessing that quickly all that
information

------
baybal2
@dang can we change the headline to reflect that the summary says that he
wasn't a military officer, but a civilian employee at PLA?

~~~
georgeburdell
Do civilians in the military get ranks? I'm having a time squaring what you're
saying with what's in the article.

>Wang provided information that he was, in fact, still currently a “Level 9”
technician in the PLA, employed by a military university lab. CBP officers
also obtained information that this roughly corresponded with the level of
Major

~~~
baybal2
Civilian technicians at many NATO militaries also have "levels."

A difference in between a civilian worker in the military, and a ranked
officers is exactly them being a civilian, and another being a member of
military command.

No civilian employee anywhere there commands troops around. A distinction that
can not be overlooked, and be more obvious.

------
throwaway888abc
No spy plot. No popcorn.

Defendant Charged with Visa Fraud

Wang is charged with visa fraud, in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 1546(a). If
convicted, he faces a maximum statutory penalty of ten years in prison and a
fine of $250,000.

According to court documents, Wang was still employed by the PLA while he was
studying in the United States and he made false statements about his military
service in his visa application in order to increase the likelihood that he
would receive his J1 visa.

~~~
Jonanin
Excuse me? This is not an accurate summary of the article at all. It's in fact
exactly a spy plot: Wang was "instructed by his supervisor, the director of
his military university lab in the PRC, to observe the layout of the UCSF lab
and bring back information on how to replicate it in China".

~~~
HarryHirsch
_observe the layout of the UCSF lab and bring back information on how to
replicate it in China_

That's the purpose of a J-1 visa, isn't it? The fellow was on a scientific
exchange program. It's all very mystifying what the administration is trying
to signal.

~~~
hailwren
This argument was specifically addressed in the source.

'According to court documents, Wang was still employed by the PLA while he was
studying in the United States and he made false statements about his military
service in his visa application in order to increase the likelihood that he
would receive his J1 visa.'

The allegation is that he would not have been on a scientific exchange program
had it been clear that it was a scientific exchange with the PLA.

~~~
HarryHirsch
The fellow did serve as an officer in the PLA and indicated as much on his
visa application. Nothing would be easier for the Chinese military than to
approach former officers and encourage them to join a university and apply for
a scientific exchange visa in the US. If there was genuine concern the visa
would have been sent to administrative processing long ago and then denied.

It doesn't make sense, especially since the researcher will have shared what
he did with the intelligence officer at his installation. Any officer of any
country would have done that.

Meanwhile the US charge him with nothing worse than visa fraud. They could at
least point to the stolen IP. It's all very baffling.

~~~
chiph
He isn't a former officer. He is a _current_ officer. Being charged with
espionage is a very real possibility.

------
ransom1538
"Wang is charged with visa fraud, in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 1546(a). If
convicted, he faces a maximum statutory penalty of ten years in prison and a
fine of $250,000."

The US has ludicrous prison sentences. Lie on an application = 10 years in
prison. That is insane. Good luck getting out alive as a 5'5" 130 lbs guy in a
federal prison covered in covid19 for 10 years. Federal prison doesn't have
good time - so bring some good books.

Instead could we just charge this guy, make him pay huge fines, make him teach
classes, make him explain what really happened and move on? Instead! I bet a
senator out there is trying to pass a law making it 40 years.

~~~
marcinzm
>make him explain what really happened

According to the court documents, what really happened was that he was trying
to steal intellectual property for China. These long sentences exist because
state actors would otherwise just keep sending people until one succeeded with
no downside.

~~~
ransom1538
? Not following. They just caught a guy doing it _with_ harsh sentences. China
_already_ has no downsides. Having this person work with us OUT of prison
would hurt China much more.

~~~
gpm
Having spies go to prison for long periods of time tend to decrease the
incentives of other people to become spies.

Unlike most criminals, spies are probably moderately rational about
risk/reward, as such this is probably actually an effective deterrent.

/end unsupported opinion.

~~~
godelski
I may be totally off base, but I've heard that spies are generally treated
well. That they are mostly traded. That way when our spies are caught they
aren't mistreated either. Clearly situations matter and the sensitivity of
what was stolen.

------
rkapsoro
Interesting little data point: I just asked my gf (who is from China mainland)
to take a peep at WeChat, and it hasn't blown up with this story (yet?).

------
737min
Very good news that this is finally getting attention

------
sumnobody
Two words: Fuck china.

------
vaxman
He was caught at LAX but this is typical Silicon Valley BS.

------
nine_zeros
This may be a tangent. Can the US govt be charged for typos and mistakes in
legal documents or for delays?

I have never seen such attrocious imbalance of power.

No wonder foreigners are wary of coming to the US

~~~
ryanhuff
Is it really surprising? China has been wholesale ripping off American (and
other) companies and government for years. Do you expect the government to
blindly let this theft continue without a serious response?

~~~
nine_zeros
As posted in the original post, I was posting a tangent about US laws.
Specifically the charges listed in the original post are about
misrepresentation on some stupid form.

------
godelski
I can't tell if these comments are just people not reading the article or a
gross characterization. Can we get @dang in here? All that is being discussed
is the MAXIMUM penalty as if it is the standard. In HN we're supposed to
respond to the article accurately. So here's some quotes.

>> Wang provided information that he was, in fact, still currently a “Level 9”
technician in the PLA, employed by a military university lab. CBP officers
also obtained information that this roughly corresponded with the level of
Major, and that Wang had received compensation from the PLA and the China
Scholarship Council—in addition to compensation from UCSF—while in the United
States.

>> Also according to court documents, Wang provided information to CBP that he
had been instructed by his supervisor, the director of his military university
lab in the PRC, to observe the layout of the UCSF lab and bring back
information on how to replicate it in China.

>> Wang also wiped his personal phone of WeChat messaging content earlier the
morning he arrived at LAX.

TLDR: Wang was a major in the Chinese Army, being paid by them while going to
UCSF and was sending information back to China.

------
thorwasdfasdf
>> Wang is alleged to have made fraudulent statements on this visa
application. Specifically, in his visa application, Wang stated that he had
served as an Associate Professor in Medicine.

seriously, that was the fault they found? it was just a mix up with his
occupation. so what if he was military?

this isn't going to end well. If we randomly go arresting chinese people
trying to return to china, they're just going to do the same back and US
citizens are going to get arrested in China for equally BS reasons.

~~~
huy-nguyen
> Wang is alleged to have made fraudulent statements on this visa application.
> Specifically, in his visa application, Wang stated that he had served as an
> Associate Professor in Medicine in the PLA, from September 1, 2002 through
> September 1, 2016.

> In reality, when interviewed by officers of Customs and Border Protection
> (CBP) at LAX on June 7, 2020, Wang provided information that he was, in
> fact, still currently a “Level 9” technician in the PLA, employed by a
> military university lab.

> According to court documents, Wang was still employed by the PLA while he
> was studying in the United States and he made false statements about his
> military service in his visa application in order to increase the likelihood
> that he would receive his J1 visa.

He stated on his visa application that his employment with the military ended
in 2016 when in fact he continued working for them. That’s visa fraud right
there. You cannot knowingly provide materially false information to obtain US
immigration benefits. They were totally right to charge him.

~~~
thorwasdfasdf
Imagine for a second, that you're filling out a visa application and you've
stopped working for the army and started working another research job. Now, if
you're still being paid, on retainer you could say that you're still working
there or not, it could be either way depending on what definition you use. He
probably just forgot what he wrote on his visa. How was he supposed to
remember every last detail of a visa application from 4 years earlier?

Imagine if they ask you, the next time you go abroad about every last detail
on your visa application, do you think you could remember every last date of
where/when you were employed?

who knows, maybe his wife filled out the application for him, or his
secretary.

jailing people for a simple visa application mistake is a big mistake.
Bascially, they're assuming he's a spy. whatever happened to "innocent till
proven guilty"?

------
readhn
>In reality, when interviewed by officers of Customs and Border Protection
(CBP) at LAX on June 7, 2020, Wang provided information that he was, in fact,
still currently a “Level 9” technician in the PLA, employed by a military
university lab.

Are you seriously telling me that the guy who is supposedly sent to "spy" in
the US - just tells them at the border , oh hey, no i actually i lied - i work
for Chinese military. I dont buy this - there is more to the story. I mean, do
they waterboard foreigners at LAX?

Something does not add up here.

~~~
shkkmo
The application was over a year and a half ago. Wang may simply have forgotten
what lies he told on the application.

It also seems to be implied that not all the information that contradicted the
visa application came from an interview. Specifically it is implied that CPB
knew he was being paid by organizations in China via another source.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
Wang may not be the one who told the lies. "Here, sign this paper that we
filled out for you." "OK."

