
Problems with MacBook butterfly switch keyboards - nicksergeant
https://theoutline.com/post/2402/the-new-macbook-keyboard-is-ruining-my-life
======
nrclark
My work gave me one of the 2016 15" MBPs as my main computer, and the keyboard
is horrible.

My V key double-presses about half the time, and the rest of the keys are
really hard to press down all the way. Some of the keys make a weird metal
rattle when I press them.

Typing on that wretched keyboard for more than an hour or so literally bruises
my fingers.

Since I do most of my day-to-day work at a dock with an external keyboard, I'm
debating whether it's bad enough that I need to fight with IT and be the one
special snowflake with a PC instead. But it's bad enough that I'm seriously
considering it.

The more I write about this keyboard, the angrier I get. >:(

And also seriously, fuck the touchbar. Who the hell decided that programmers
don't need a functional ESC key or permanent function keys? And who the hell
decided that I should have to fumble around and mash my already-bruised finger
against a tiny glass icon to change my volume level? Just so Skype can show
buttons that mimic the buttons already on the screen?

The user experience of the touchbar is objectively worse and adds no value.
Most apps don't even use it, and the ones that do don't use it for anything
interesting. And before long I'm sure it'll be playing advertisements at me.

~~~
dillondoyle
My biggest beaf with the TouchBar: volume takes two clicks! Instead of an up
down and mute button, I get mute and volume which then opens a slider to the
left of the click. So instead of just clicking once to lower volume I have to
click, move my finger and slide. It would be so easy to allow custom button to
add back on (and maybe there is that I haven't been able to find?)

I also accidentally 'touch my pinky finger when typing my password (numbers)
and it registers as touch even though I'm not applying downward force. In
Chrome thank god I could remove the refresh button, would accidentally refresh
login pages all the time.

~~~
DeRock
A couple things: you don’t have to click volume and then move to the slider,
you can just touch the volume button and begin sliding immediately and it will
adjust relative to how you slide. Also, if you go into System
Preferences—>Keyboard, you can customize the keys, including adding a
dedicated mute button.

~~~
kagamine
When users have to fiddle with settings to do the things they could do before
without fiddling, what have you achieved? Apple used to be the UX good guys,
now they are the devil in disguise.

~~~
kamaal
>>Apple used to be the UX good guys

Apple had one person who was good at UX. And that guy is dead for years now.
His product pipeline can't be milked further to make more money.

From here onwards its just your usual managers running the show.

~~~
Illotus
Don Norman may be over 80, but not dead I think ;)

------
saurik
Based on the title I assumed that this person was going to be complaining
about joint damage due to the low key travel. This keyboard on my 12" MacBook
is so bad that between having to get the top case replaced to fix broken keys
(when as stated in the article, careful blowing didn't work and trying to
replace the keys caused them to break) and my fingers feeing like they have
aged many years from the poor ergonomics of no key travel (something I am
extremely pissed about) I have mostly just stopped using a laptop: even when
using this computer it is now docked at my home with an external monitor and a
real keyboard. You have to understand that I am someone who hates desktop
computers and has been using the 11" MacBook Air since the moment it came out
as a replacement to an HP Mini... I love small computers, but this one is
trash. I have it on my todo list to move back to my now-repaired 11" Air, but
the thought of having to do that much data movement is demoralizing,
particularly as I have grown accustomed to the high-resolution screen. I am
not sure what to do as I just can't understand how Apple thinks these
keyboards are reasonable... it just seems so obvious that this is dumb.

~~~
micaksica
Your story resonated with me because I had the same experiences with a 12”
MacBook.

While I can’t really use you as an example, since you kind of need a Mac for a
lot of the work you do specifically, I’ve heard the same complaints about
Apple hardware from other long-time Mac users that _don’t_ actually need to
have a Mac.

I am curious how many of those of us that don’t need macOS day to day have
voted with their wallet away from Apple’s pro line, and what they switched to.
I still use a mid-2014 MacBook Pro at work, but at home when it was time to
upgrade I took the same path you did and went for the 12” MacBook. It sucked
in every way.

Now I’m the owner of a Dell XPS, the supposed most Mac-like PC, and I’m simply
stuck with another set of problems: it’s developed a great amount of coil
whine, thermal management is spotty to say the least, and the sound card
drivers have to be reinstalled every few reboots else it will not detect when
I have plugged or unplugged headphones, which has me carrying around a USB
DAC. When I _need_ macOS, I’m still running High Sierra on a quad-core Mac
Mini server from 2011.

The sad thing is that I don’t think there is a good option at this point. All
of the “alternatives” to the MacBook contain their own faults.

~~~
Vanit
Also migrated to a Dell XPS 15 as new Macs stopped exciting me.

No coil whine in mine, but it was hell finding just the right bios version so
sleep would work. And if you don't use a specific Intel you driver version you
get screen flicker. Le sigh.

~~~
madeofpalk
Hey, but at least your computer is exciting now, right?

------
suresk
The new MBPs are such a mixed bag for me.. I got one at work, while I still
use a 2012 MBP, and I go back and forth on some things....

1) New keyboard took a while to get used to, and it does seem like they are a
little finicky. After a while, I've gotten used to the feel of it and actually
prefer it for the most part. The arrow keys are really hard to use, though..

I do hate that it is such an expensive/involved thing to replace the keyboard.

2) The enlarged trackpad is kinda nice sometimes, but really hard to use other
times.. The way I rest my hands on my laptop when I'm using it while sitting
back or lying down always results in mis-clicks and other problems with the
new trackpad. I'd rather have the smaller-sized one, but I realize others may
not have the same problems I do.

3) TouchID is really handy, but the TouchBar is an unfortunate gimmick. I keep
trying to find good uses for it, but it mostly ends up being kinda useless -
anything I can do with it, I could do before with less work. I hope it goes
away, or at least becomes an optional thing in the future.

Overall, while it is nice to have a laptop that is smaller/lighter, the way
Apple is sacrificing all sorts of other stuff (performance, repairability) to
minimize size/weight sometimes feels wrong for what it supposed to be a
professional series laptop.

~~~
threeseed
Use BetterTouchTool for the Touch Bar.

It allows you to customise it for each application and assign your own buttons
based on menu items, scripts etc. For development it is amazing. I have
dedicated buttons for Build, Run, Debug, Stop, Step Into and Step Over. For
terminal I can adjust terminal profiles with one button.

Also blame Intel more than Apple for performance issues.

~~~
crispinb
> For development it is amazing. I have dedicated buttons for Build, Run,
> Debug, Stop, Step Into and Step Over

I have these in IntelliJ as standard key combos (some being Fn keys). All of
these I can touch type. I can't see how this would be improved by having to
look down at the mini-screen at the top of the keyboard.

~~~
threeseed
You can use it for things wouldn't normally remember or that require arcane
key commands.

Two buttons I use are to Expand/Collapse All Code Folds.

~~~
IanCal
I think the main point is that you could just map those to function keys.

I think I've only seen one main use that works well with the bar, and that's
scrubbing through video or audio.

~~~
akvadrako
But you have to remember what the function keys do, so you are ignoring the
primary point of the touch bar.

~~~
addicted
If it’s something you use so infrequently why not have it on the screen in a
toolbar instead, so you still don’t have to remember which key it is, and you
don’t need to move your gaze away from what you were already looking at.

The touchbar has used, but from what I can tell, all those uses are better
solved by existing non touchbar techniques already.

Toolbars for infrequently user functions you won’t remember the shortcut for
(better because they hold more and don’t require you to change the screen
you’re looking at, and you can keep your hands on the touchpad/mouse as
before).

Fn keys (or combo keys) for frequently used shortcuts that you would remember
as they ass tactile feedback and are much more conducive to touch typing.

The trackpad for actual scrubbing like functions.

Where I can see the touchbar being useful are infrequently used global
functions, but I believe these are the ones Apple explicitly prevents
developers from building (and unsurprisingly the inbuilt global ones from
Apple are the most popular feature of the touchbar, such as volume controls
and music playback controls).

------
tomcam
I too have found this keyboard it to be a disaster. I made the mistake of
buying two MacBooks as soon as the first 12" model was released, one for me
and one for my wife, and my wife's keyboard had so many problems we took it in
to Apple. All they could do was offered to swap out the keyboard for a mere
$400. My wife refused, and the problem mysteriously solved itself.

Meanwhile, mine "works", but the short key travel makes touch typing next to
impossible even after two years of use. I have just purchased an inexpensive
windows computer from a Lenovo and I'm trying to get accustomed to Windows 10
so I have a workable keyboard. This is a big deal because I am deep into
Apples ecosystem and lock-in.

I do not want to switch but I type all day and I can't bear to buy another
Macintosh because the keywords have all gone this way. I am however
considering purchasing a new old stock MacBook Air.

~~~
stevenwoo
Where's a good place to find new old stock MacBooks?

~~~
nadavami
I've always had good results with Apple's refurbished devices.

------
rothbardrand
I have the 2016 MBP, and have been using it extensively in third world
conditions this year. The keyboard has been so good that I didn't even notice
it. What I do notice is having to limit myself to the 15 inch display vs the
two 40" 4k displays I have at home. The machine supports four, and I would buy
a third 4k display (This time UHD) if I could figure out a desk arrangement
that supports all three and still keep the MBP in easy reach.

I love my MBP. The flash storage was a little more expensive than I wanted,
and I'm going to wait an extra year to upgrade.

Anyway. this isn't a product story- the keyboard is fine.

This is a service story-- Apple should have fixed his right the first time.

PS- Touch Bar is great.

~~~
indemnity
Yep, I have the 2013 15” rMBP and the 2016 15” rMBP.

Much prefer the keyboard on the 2016 model.

Just two gripes:

\- keyboard is noisy as hell, very noticeable in conference calls

\- trackpad is way too big, it’s hard to find a resting position. six months
in i still accidentally touch it when not meaning to.

~~~
wingworks
Yeah, I like the touchbar, but yeah was a little disappointed in how loud the
keyboard and even the trackpad, coming from a 2015 MBP.

------
nfoz
We had a candidate come in for interviews, and one of them was a video-
conference programming session with a remote interviewer. We set them up with
a Macbook (running Windows/Bootcamp) for live-coding.

The candidate hit the Power button, located where DEL used to be. Laptop goes
to sleep (candidate said it shut down but it probably just went to sleep). He
gets it back up but then it needs a login etc., so he had to go find us non-
remote staff to log back in, join VPN etc. Took about 5 minutes out of the
interview, partly due to confusion + logging back into the things.

I can't for the life of me understand why so many vendors have put this button
on the keyboard. It was so simple and sensible to have it somewhere else.

Edited: Macbook running Windows, probably just went to sleep but disruptive
nonetheless, combination of hardware+software to blame.

~~~
isatty
Nothing about this makes much sense - regardless of which generation macbook
you're using hitting the power button accidentally will not turn it off (you
can try it right now). Did your interviewee keep pressing on it for like 10
seconds?

~~~
csydas
Indeed, I'm not even sure that aside from intentionally editing the
PowerManagement.plist that you can do this. On my Macbook Air, you have to
hold in the power button for a short period to produce the
Sleep/Restert/Shutdown pop-up, and the default is cancel, I believe. Apple's
own page on the matter says it requires a 1.5 second hold to produce. [0]

I appreciate your over-all sentiment that when the default behavior for power
buttons was to take action, but my expectation now is that bumping the power
button should ask you what to do, not do something. I'm still surprised that
many Windows based laptops have a default action mapped to the power button
regardless of the placement of the button, as interrupting the state of the
machine just seems like something you'd want a confirmation on - aside from a
few outlier "oh crap no one can see this" moments, I'm not sure why you'd need
the quick bump to initiate shutdown or any action from the power button at
all. Even in the above situation, a shutdown is far slower most times than
just a hard shutdown.

Edit: Seeing your follow up, I feel that you should really update your
original post to mention that it was running Windows via Bootcamp. macOS and
Windows respond very differently to a power button press, and Windows' default
is to take a sleep, hibernate, or shutdown action, and at least on our Server
2016 images, the default behavior is to initiate a shutdown. This isn't OS X
behavior, it's Windows behavior.

[0] [https://support.apple.com/en-
us/HT201236#sleep](https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201236#sleep)

~~~
nfoz
Thanks. Updated, and probably this thread is off-topic enough that I should
just delete it.

In my head I had not distinguished between "shutdown" and "sleep", nor decide
that the hardware was less to blame than the software. Those details matter,
sorry for any confusion.

~~~
heartbreak
Go tap the power button on a Macbook keyboard. It doesn't do anything. Hold
the power button and it prompts.

It's a tad unbelievable.

------
jankotek
I have Dell XPS 13. When keyboard broke (probably my fault), technician come
to my house next day and replaced it in front of me. For free, as part of
basic warranty. I was on holiday in other country...

~~~
bitexploder
Dell doesn't produce the most beautiful laptops, but at least every component
isn't soldered to your "logic board".

It comes at a cost of larger and heavier laptops, but the XPS 13 Developer
Edition I write this on is small, runs Linux, and has a beautiful display and
a real keyboard I don't absolutely hate. Even Linus likes it.

I am slowly turning back towards Dell for almost all my main computing
accessories (laptop/monitor).

------
pudo
This, so much. Plus, call me clumsy, but the number of times I have
accidentally triggered one of the magic bar buttons is beyond count. In
everyday use, it often feels like my computer just randomly mutes system audio
or locks the display (I had to get rid of the Siri button, it's incredibly
annoying).

All of that besides the fact that you cannot really use VIM any more because
the ESC button is gone...

~~~
davrosthedalek
The most annoying thing about Siri is that another key press does not close
that window again. It's the first thin I removed from the touch bar.

The number of times I actually wanted to change the terminal colors or open a
man page with the touchbar is exactly zero. I press them often enough by
accident that I am annoyed.

The touchbar is a solution looking for a problem. Can't find one. If you want
reconfigurable keys, why not put a small display in each of them? That would
at least be a possible benefit without these fundamental drawbacks.

~~~
maxxxxx
"Can't find one. If you want reconfigurable keys, why not put a small display
in each of them?"

Good idea. The whole trend toward touch interfaces is really annoying.
Something tactile is much better if you see it a lot. Same in cars. Operating
a car heater through touch is much more difficult and requires more attention
than old fashioned dials.

------
Gaelan
I actually really like my 2017 MBP's keyboard. There isn't much key travel,
but the keys do have a very satisfying "click." I prefer it over older apple
keyboards. Keys do have issues weekly or so, but that's resolved by hitting
the key a bunch; it's an inconvenience, but certainly not a dealbreaker.

~~~
reustle
> Keys do have issues weekly or so, but that's resolved by hitting the key a
> bunch

I've been considering moving to a 12 MacBook but hearing stuff like this
scares me

~~~
saurik
Yeah. I'm just shocked by how much people are willing to just deal with as if
it is normal or something. I have a friend who recently told me they are
surprised as how much I hate my 12" MacBook as they are loving theirs... and
then a little later they tell me that the O key on their keyboard doesn't work
half the time and just... I just don't even... wtf. I swear all the people who
love these new computers must just have extremely low standards or something:
you shouldn't have to mess around with your computer every week to fix some
stupid keyboard issue that wouldn't exist if the laptop was a mere millimeter
thicker.

~~~
jjrrmm
I have two Macbooks from 2015 and none hat any key issues whatsoever.

------
zelos
Even Gruber is worried:

[https://daringfireball.net/linked/2017/10/17/johnston-
macboo...](https://daringfireball.net/linked/2017/10/17/johnston-macbook-
keyboard)

------
danpalmer
I quite enjoy typing on the new keyboard (2017 MBP), and have not had any
issues.

My only minor criticism would be that the up and down arrows are a little
tricky to hit quickly without looking, but it's really minor for me.

Overall, in my experience, this was a solid upgrade on the previous keyboard
(which I had to use a few days ago to prepare my old MBP to be sold).

~~~
cjbillington
Yeah, these up and down arrows are a bit of a disappointment. I have a Dell
XPS which has the same half-height keys for up and down. I hit the wrong one
all the time. Guess I should enable system-wide vim or emacs bindings or
something.

------
antoinevg
When I got my first MacBookPro in 2009 I was sold instantly.

Not because of the specs, I had given up a Dell costing a quarter of the price
with higher resolution display, more memory, a nicer keyboard and faster CPU.

I was sold because, unlike any of the other Windows & Linux computers I owned
at the time, it did not make me angry when I used it.

I miss _that_ MacBookPro.

------
awalton
There was literally nothing wrong with the MBP2013 keyboard. This endless
pursuit of making anorexic electronics by Apple will only continue inventing
faults like these - there's simply a limit to how thin these things can go and
maintain durability, and that's what we're seeing here.

Jobs never would have let this nonsense happen. He'd have pressed the key and
thrown the machine at whomever invented this "butterfly" switch.

------
eknkc
I have a 15” 2016 model and I’m close to throwing it out of my office window.

My b and n keys acted up randomly. B would hit twice on each press and n would
miss keystrokes sometimes. Cleaned it with air, massaged the keys, removed
caps and cleaned etc. Other keys started following. Apple here in Turkey does
not have the same support you guys in US seem to enjoy.

They gave me a 15 day repair window, no offer of replacements etc. I simply
can’t live without it for 15 days so I’m still using this piece of shit broken
laptop.

I’d buy a replacement and send this one to repair only to sell it but then I’d
still need to buy a MBP because of macOS.

One of these days I’m gonna pull thr plug and go all linux.

------
gol706
Well, I'm glad it's not just me. I had my top case replaced a month ago after
my 'w' key started sticking down off and on. I could swear I felt one of the
keys on my new case stick once, but it hasn't happend again.

I usually don't buy Apple Care, but as I look at the 1 year mark approach, I'm
thinking I may need to suck it up and buy it if the alternative is a $400-700
top case replacement ever few months on my dime until Apple decides to issue
an extended warranty. Even if they do issue one, with my last laptop, I had to
fight them to replace my main board a second time with the GPU failures
because they tried to claim that since they repaired it once, it was
impossible that the issue could happen a second time even though all of their
diagnostic tests showed that it indeed had.

On the plus side, ever time they replace the keyboard, you get a brand new
battery and new USB-C connectors (which I'm also paranoid are going to have
longevity issues).

~~~
FireBeyond
> Even if they do issue one, with my last laptop, I had to fight them to
> replace my main board a second time with the GPU failures because they tried
> to claim that since they repaired it once, it was impossible that the issue
> could happen a second time even though all of their diagnostic tests showed
> that it indeed had.

Been there, done that. Even to fix once. "Well, it fails that specific
diagnostic and there's a bulletin about it, but we don't think that's the
issue", even though I could repeatedly make it kernel panic due to a GPU fault
merely by browsing a page in Safari (and the console spewed forth the same
errors).

I know people claim Apple has uniformly excellent service and I'd agree that
for the most part, they do, but there's also polarizingly bad service, too.

------
KayL
I replaced my broken MBP 2013 to 2017. The keyboard is really horrible!! The
2013 KB was wonderful and I can't find any other laptop with same great KB.

With the new MBP, after one month of purchase, the display is down. I went to
Apple Store, and they told me 3 days for repair but I never get any email/tel
contacts after a week and their online status remained "repairing". Until I
call them back, they told me they contacted and I didn't pick up their phone.

Now after 2 months, I found a video quality issue on their FaceTime camera
(with sunlight, same issue):
[https://imgur.com/a/AQTOw](https://imgur.com/a/AQTOw)

Has anyone with the same experience?

------
CptJamesCook
I despise my new Macbook's touchbar. I can't get to the volume button without
stopping what I'm doing for 4-5 seconds to find the key, then press multiple
buttons, I can't use the function keys, and it generally adds no value.

~~~
btown
Just use the buttons on your wired headphones which are equally compatible
with your iPhone and Mac... oh, wait.

~~~
Ninn
Great shitpost, too bad none wired headphones like the crowd favourites qc35
and others have volume keys too. Its sad to think that you cannot get out of
your bubble and realise that this is not objectively a bad design choice, but
some of us actually enjoy and applaude it.

------
jamesrcole
It sounds like there's real, serious problems with it, but nothing in the
article comes close to justifying the hyperbolic title.

------
jarym
Apples obsession with thin is taking liberties and no matter what they say, I
know a significant number of MBP users who are sticking with older laptops -
just like the genius in the article.

~~~
ibiza
The previous generation MacBook Pros are still sold new on the Apple Store.
Scroll down a bit: [https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-
pro/15-inch](https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/15-inch)

------
kalleboo
I had keys go bad twice on my 2017 MBP, but both times I've managed to
"massage" them back to life by pressing down hard and wiggling the keys
around.

My previous laptop, the original 2012 MBP Retina, lasted 5 years. I have my
doubts this one is built as robustly...

That said I actually enjoy typing on this keyboard. The short travel and
sharp, stable clickiness has lowered my typing error rate and makes it _feel_
like I'm typing faster. I was never a good typist though.

------
Chaebixi
Don't worry everyone! Apple's going to fix this in the next version by
replacing the keyboard with a touch screen!

~~~
bitexploder
Don't give them ideas. Just... don't. The all new Electro Tactile Keyboard. It
is the most amazing typing experience you have ever had on a keyboard.

3 years later everyone is wandering around with claws for hands, having
forgotten what real keyboards do for human to computer interaction.

~~~
lallysingh
Ahem, this isn't a new idea for them:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FingerWorks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FingerWorks)

~~~
bitexploder
Of course. If I think of it some one else did 10 years ago ;)

------
svckr
> Though Apple employees receive significant yearly discounts on computers,
> and this was the first significant redesign of the MacBook Pro’s body in
> eight years, he had chosen not to buy one of the new ones, even a year
> later. (The author, referring to a Genius' 2015 MBP)

Umm. I earn modestly good money developing software and my 2010 MBP is
starting to show its age. How much does he think an Apple Store employee
makes? How much DOES an Apple Genius in NYC make?

~~~
bsimpson
FYI, OP is a woman:
[https://twitter.com/caseyjohnston](https://twitter.com/caseyjohnston)

~~~
svckr
Thanks for pointing that out! Usually aiming for non-gendered language, but
sometimes assumptions get the better of me!

------
localcdn
It's rare seeing an ad get through ublock and hosts filters.

~~~
chrisper
Yes, but I didn't find that ad "out of place" or annoying. So I do not mind!

~~~
wingworks
I had the same feeling, I don't mind ads if they are done well.

------
executesorder66
> “Hold on,” I said. “If a single piece of dust lays the whole computer out,
> don't you think that's kind of a problem?”

> ...

> The Genius shrugged empathetically. He cast around and pointed to a nearby
> pre-2015 MacBook Pro with relatively thicker keys. "I have one of those," he
> said apologetically.

Wow. That's got to be the worst tech-support I have ever heard of.

~~~
heartbreak
What do you expect him to say? He's not an Apple engineer. He didn't design
the keyboard. He's a blue-shirt working customer service at an Apple store.

~~~
executesorder66
I expect him to say something along the lines of, "I don't know, let me see
what I can find out and I'll get back to you."

Imagine your lawn mower broke, and took it to a repair shop. You complain it
doesn't switch on. The repair guy says maybe there is a piece of grass that
got inside, and that's why it's not working. You say that sounds like a really
bad design if a lawn mower can't handle a piece of grass. He says, "Oh, well I
use some other model."

How is that even remotely helpful?

------
api
This is what happens when you hyper-optimize for a single dimension in a many-
dimensional optimization problem. In this case it's "thin and light."

MacBook Pros have been thin and light enough for nearly a decade. If I want
tiny I have a smart phone that I can pull out of my pocket. I want a laptop to
be a portable "real computer" with a lot of power, durability, and good
ergonomics. Long battery life is also important. I'd be very happy with a
thicker Pro with more CPU, more RAM, and a big battery.

The latest Macs are such a disaster I'm currently thinking about how I can
extricate myself from the platform and go back to either Windows or Linux. The
OS is fine but the hardware has gone bozo. My latest Mac was a refurbished
older model which I consider to be superior in many ways to the newer ones.

------
mrmondo
I might sound like the black sheep here - but I really enjoy typing on the new
MacBook keyboard, even when switching from my DAS ultimate on my desktop and
back - I truly enjoy it and make far less mistakes while typing faster.

What I do think is completely useless is he touchbar, nice idea but no real
use.

------
binaryanomaly
I‘m struggling as well since i have migrated from my 2015 macbook pro. The new
keyboards are not well suited for writing more than a few occassional
sentences. I make more typing mistakes and am slower than before. Worst
keyboard since my whole life. Apple needs to improve this.

------
gingerb
I am a developer spending 10+ hours a day on my old macbook pro (2015 model).
It is without doubt the best pc I've ever had. And I am treating it with even
more care now.

I really don't want the new model as replacement, for more reasons. I don't
expect Apple to recover from the loss of Steve Jobs, at least not in terms of
quality. I see they are trying to remain a financial success.

Which laptop will be an improvement compared to the one I have now? I don't
want Windows, but a Linux distro would be great if the OS happened be as
robust as OSX in all respects. I tried Arch, Ubuntu flavours, etc.. none of
them compare in many ways. I actually never had a touchpad on any other laptop
that behaved as smooth as the mbp one for example.

------
skocznymroczny
I love the keyboard on new MacBooks. I'd like to have a keyboard like that for
my desktop PC actually. I like how low travel it is, allowing me to type super
fast with minimal effort, also it is nice to touch and makes nice sounds when
typing.

~~~
efficax
I also love the 12" MB keyboards. And the new MBP keyboards are even better. I
treat my 2016 12" MB like shit, throw it in my bag without a case, eat in its
general area, and I've never had an issue with dust messing up the kb. But I
believe that there's a design flaw here that apple should fix. But the
keyboards are great from every other angle.

------
madmax108
It constantly amazes me how a product which is so widely criticized by the dev
community, ends up selling so well. Really shows how Apple dropped the ball
from making a system which became the de-facto developer laptop (whether I
like that it did or not is a different question), right upto this clunky mess
which is a far cry from their earlier versions

I still maintain that the 2012 rMBP, which were the last Macbooks that came
out under Jobs IIRC, were the most stable developer-focussed iteration of the
MBP. No heating issues, a sexy screen, stable non-glitchy non-hanging OS, and
a wonderful experience overall!

~~~
heisenbit
Are thy selling well? Apple's market share is not growing. I got a 2012 MBP
and the money to buy a new one. What I see is not convincing me I get value
for money. Apple used to know that basics matter but recently they are
innovating on the margin. That only gets you so far onto the ice...

------
pimeys
This autumn I finally needed to buy a new laptop and spent some time testing
and figuring out which keyboard I like the most. The funny thing was that the
only seriously decent laptop keyboard is in a model that has a limited release
and will probably sell out in the coming weeks: The ThinkPad 25th anniversary
edition.

How can it be that to get a seriously good keyboard for programming, I need to
get a novelty laptop and get it fast until it sells out. If you have a chance
to test it somewhere and can take a hit with a FHD panel, this is definitely a
fast and robust laptop.

~~~
bitexploder
I think FHD is a feature. Even on a 15" laptop it is around 140ppi, thats... a
lot. And FHD saves on battery life significantly on anything not Apple. I
specifically ordered a Precision 7520 this week with an anti-glare FHD with no
mic or webcam because 140+ PPI is a good balance for me and it extends battery
life significantly.

96 ppi is the old standard. 140ppi generally gives a very nice and crisp
screen. The 220 or so on most MBP retina is nice, but probably overkill
starting around 180ppi in my estimation.

~~~
mikejmoffitt
Agreed, and I'm happy that I'm not the only person with this view on display
density. I can deal with HiDPI displays if it allows me to to a 1:2 integer
scale without losing too much real estate, but any scaling between there loses
small pixel details. As someone who appreciates sharp bitmap fonts and pixel
graphics, the retina MBP is a big irritation.

------
desireco42
Complete opposite is new Surface Book or however it is called. Keyboard
travels just fine, it has touch screen, long life... I am writing this on Mac,
I have several more, but since passing of Steve Jobs, things are just not
right.

Anyhow, looking at new Microsoft machine, with great graphics card and every
feature I would want (sd card, thank you!), couldn't help but think about how
things have changed.

Oh and biggie, it has Esc key! Can you imagine that :)

~~~
desireco42
Ha ha ha, truth hurts so much :) How Apple dares not be cool :)

I am in the same boat, I am just not as messed up as you downvoters.

------
j7ake
Once bash on windows gets sufficiently close to my needs and I am able to swap
alt with ctrl, I will little resistance for going from OS X to windows.

~~~
rjeli
linux as daily driver is _honestly_ good, from the bottom of my heart (I
recommend xfce)

~~~
j7ake
Also if any Linux laptop can give me 8 plus hours of productive battery life I
am also switching. I had problems with an old one where closing laptop lid
drained all the battery so I constantly had to worry about the on state of my
laptop

~~~
mickael-kerjean
It's already here. I got between 13h (normal workload) to 25h (no internet and
Emacs only) on the Lenovo x270 with arch and i3wm

~~~
j7ake
Great thanks good to know. Do you have any issues with sleep or closing lid
draining battery ?

~~~
mickael-kerjean
No issues here. Only issues I got is related to the fingerprint scanner.

------
r-s
Have a 2017 MPB I got for work, I pretty much only run it in closed clamshell
mode. If I need to actually be type something, I will pull out a $500 acer
laptop from 5 years ago running linux because it is much nicer to type on.

If I actually paid for the machine I would be pretty mad. The keyboard misses
clicks and the lack of the escape key still bothers me.

------
asdfasdfasd333
So glad someone called this out. A single key on my MBP broke and Apple wanted
$500 to "fix" it, even with AppleCare.

Fuck that.

~~~
baldfat
Wait you had paid for Apple Care and yet they wanted $500? Why is Apple so
sacred with so many people?

~~~
shinratdr
Because this isn't the typical experience for most?

I've had nothing but good things to say about Apple's repair policies. If it's
in warranty, wander into an Apple Store, explain the issue, come back an hour
or two later for your free fix or replacement.

Done and done. I've also heard horror stories, but they're a pretty big
company. I'm not surprised it's a mixed bag. I can say that there are almost
no companies that have a store a couple blocks from me that I can walk into
and get free same day repair service for some devices.

The vast majority require me to mail my device into some unknown depot and be
without it for a much longer period of time.

~~~
asdfasdfasd333
They consider the broken key to be "accidental damage" which puts the user at
fault. Therefore, no warranty.

------
kn0where
The best kind of controversial Apple design is one that people grumble about
because it's ahead of its time, but which ultimately replaces one way of doing
things with another that's better for most use cases. See: ditching floppies
and adopting USB on the first iMac.

The worst kind of controversial Apple design is one that people grumble about
because it's aesthetically pleasing but actually makes the product less user-
friendly. See: the hockey-puck mouse on the first iMac.

Regarding that second kind, sometimes Apple recognizes their mistake and, in a
future iteration, completely replaces the bad design with a better one. More
recently, they seem too infatuated with their initial design decisions and
just keep putting band-aids on fundamentally flawed implementations. The
butterfly keyboard mentioned in TFA is on its third(!) revision, and it's
still clearly flawed. Another example: Apple "fixed" the impossible-to-tell-
in-the-dark-which-way-you're holding-it Apple TV remote by putting a single
tactile ring around one button, rather than just designing an ergonomic remote
that makes it tougher for you to accidentally engage the touchpad and cancel
out of the movie you're watching.

So why might Apple underestimate the severity of bad design decisions?

Apple's direction with the Mac lineup as of late is a great example of
"success hides problems." [1] Supposedly, the 2016 MacBook Pros sold very
well, despite a number of bad design choices that put form over function:

\- The keyboard design as described in TFA

\- The touch bar (only available on the high end models). The designer must
have really hated those useless, ugly fkeys. But instead of putting the touch
bar above the fkeys, they eliminated them. The touch bar is not a substitute,
unless all you used the fkeys for was changing volume, etc.

\- Eliminated all other ports in favor of USB-C, which while great in theory
is in fact a highly fragmented incompatible ecosystem of poor quality
peripherals and cables that don't give the user any visual indicator as to
whether they work together. [2]

IMHO, many if not most of these MacBook Pro customers are buying not because
of these bad design decisions but in spite of them. Computers are amazing
because they're fun and powerful general purpose machines. These machines may
meet some subset of people's needs better than the old ones did. But in
exchange for that, they've stopped (or soon will stop) meeting the needs of
many, many more.

Somebody once said "design is how it works." If you live in a sterile white
world where there's no dust and you never plug anything into your laptop,
maybe this product works for you. The rest of us don't have that luxury.

[1]
[https://www.google.com/search?q=success+hides+problems](https://www.google.com/search?q=success+hides+problems)

[2] [https://marco.org/2017/10/14/impossible-dream-of-
usb-c](https://marco.org/2017/10/14/impossible-dream-of-usb-c)

~~~
tomduncalf
I understand what you are getting at, but in reality not everyone has issues
with the new design, and I’m as yet unclear whether it’s a vocal minority who
do, or a more widespread thing.

Personally, I really like my new 15” Pro. I’m in favour of anything which can
make it thinner and lighter, to a point, as I like to be able to carry it
around easily, while still having a large screen. The design looks beautiful.

In regard to the specific points you raised:

\- I prefer the keyboard to the old one. It feels satisfying to type on in my
opinion. The only thing I would change is the noise of the keys, it’s hard to
type quietly.

\- The touch bar isn’t perfect but I think it’s a worthwhile effort, as most
people (me included, and I’m a developer) rarely use the function keys for
anything aside from the media functions you mention, mainly because it’s hard
to remember what they’ll do and having shortcuts visible there is a good idea.

However, the lack of tactile feedback and visibility in sunlight is an issue.
I’d rather they’d gone with distinct keys with e-ink displays or similar, but
like I say, to me the Fn keys are no great loss (I’ve been remapping escape to
caps lock for years anyway!)

\- I find the new port set up much more flexible and have had no problems
using my old USB devices with adapters or via a hub. I did find the article
about USB-C interesting though - hopefully the industry can sort this out in
due time.

I don’t make these points to say you’re wrong, but just to show that not
everyone agrees that all these design choices are bad.

~~~
darklajid
I'm on Windows, so there's that.

I constantly (multiple times a day) use F1 (help, least used), F3 (search
again, next match), F4 (both for the famous close window shortcut and to get
to the explorer address bar), F5 (reload in browser, run in other apps), F9
(toggle breakpoint in VS), F10 (step over in VS), F11 (step into in VS).

Occasionally F8, F12.

Couldn't live without those, I guess, and I can find all of those blindly.

~~~
tomduncalf
Ahh yes, function key use is much more prevalent in Windows for whatever
reason. On the Mac most of those shortcuts have always been Cmd+letter instead
(e.g. Cmd-R = refresh, Cmd-W = close window, Cmd-Q = close app, Cmd-F = find),
so perhaps that is why Apple see the Fn keys as expendable.

On the debug thing, having the debug controls on the Touch Bar with XCode
(available from any app) is one of the few actually definitely useful things
about it. Spotify integration could be, except they decided not to show song
name or anything else useful on there.

~~~
addicted
Wouldn’t having the debug controls on Fn keys like on VS on Windows be even
more useful since you get tactile feedback as well?

The major advantage of the touchpad that I can see is for someone who is new
to the app, since it increases discoverability if shortcut keys. However this
problem was already solved using toolbars. There may be a few apps where the
screen real estate may be too expensive to lose to toolbars, but I can’t
really think of any where simply fading the toolbars in isn’t a better
solution. Maybe 4ak video editing is a better option?

I’d also imagine controls where scrubbing is better might benefit from the
touchbar, but again, that’s probably better handled by the touchpad which is
far more ergonomically accessible than the touchbar.

------
dsego
Have the same problem recently with the W-key, it types twice sometimes, most
noticeably, it will close two tabs instead of one. When I smack it, it fixes
it for a while, I think. The f-key is also giving me trouble, it's shallower
and sounds different, sometimes it will just fall out.

------
pdq
If you own a Macbook or Macbook Pro with the new slim keyboard, do yourself a
favor and buy an Uppercase keyboard protector [1].

I got dust under mine last year, had to get the Apple repair under warranty,
and then bought this $12.95 insurance. It's been working great ever since. If
I pull the cover off, the keyboard looks brand new.

The only negative is that it leaves key impressions on the screen when you
close the laptop (due to the the cover touching the glass), but these are
easily cleaned off with water/alcohol once every 2 weeks.

[1] [https://www.amazon.com/UPPERCASE-GhostCover-Keyboard-
Protect...](https://www.amazon.com/UPPERCASE-GhostCover-Keyboard-Protector-
Function/dp/B01N20RZXB/)

~~~
AlexandrB
I absolutely hate these. They make laptop keyboards feel even mushier than
normal and have the aesthetics of plastic-on-living-room-furniture. The fact
that this is now a good idea (a requirement even!) for a premium laptop is
unacceptable.

I love Apple, I really do. The magsafe connector sold me on my first Macbook
in 2009 and I've been buying Apple laptops ever since. However when the new
MacBook Pros were announced the first thing I did was buy a fully specced,
refurbished "last gen" Macbook pro because the butterfly keyboard is a bridge
too far for me in terms of typing feel. Apparently it's a bridge too far in
reliability as well. This might be my last Macbook.

~~~
pdq
Disagree here. This protector is paper thin and doesn't change the key typing
feel at all. Every keyboard I've ever owned gets dirt, grime, crumbs, etc
under them, and this keeps it brand new without needing to clean the keyboard.

Secondly, I liken this to getting a silicon case for your phone. You don't
have to get one, but the second you drop your phone, you will be thankful you
had it.

------
krishicks
I have a 2015 MacBook and also use a HHKB Pro 2 Type S; both wildly different
keyboards.

I think the MacBook keyboard is wonderful, though I prefer my HHKB. It
requires a different method of hitting the keys, but I have no problem going
between the two, or to any of the other keyboards I use.

I recall when Apple first came out with the thin aluminum keyboards that it
took me some time to adjust from what I was using at the time, a Microsoft
Ergo something or other with huge key travel and vague key actuation feel.

If you get pain while using any keyboard you should look into how you're using
it, and why you're getting that pain.

------
aquamo
about 8 months into my experience with my 15" MBP 2016 I had the underbar-
hyphen key stop working altogether. They replaced the key for me in the apple
store without charging me. Glad I have apple care, I'm sure other keys will
follow. Currently my right shift key is starting to get sticky feeling which
was the precursor to the "-" key failing on me. I'm not impressed with the
build quality considering the high cost of this machine $4000.

------
neap24
I had the most bizarre issue with my 2017 MacBook Pro keyboard: the left shift
key stopped working intermittently. Thinking it was a piece of dust, I took
off the key cover and tried to clean it out. Nothing worked. I finally made a
Genius appointment for the day after High Sierra was released. I updated to
High Sierra that morning and, suddenly, my shift key was in perfect working
order again.

------
ryanbertrand
My keyboard is currently double adding ‘b’ when I click on the B key. Very
annoying and leads to variable name bugs when I don’t catch it.

I just received my MacBook Pro back from service 2 weeks ago (I had
popping/cracking noises coming from the hinge / case when opening the computer
or when heating up or down). I don’t remember this B issue happening before :(

------
elcapitan
I have a 13" MBP with butterfly keys for my job (desk) which work perfectly
fine, and a 12" 2017 MB with butterfly keys which jam all the time, because I
use it in messier environments. I have to blow canned air through the keyboard
every two days to unjam some of the keys.

------
AJ007
I have been using one for over two years. The first month I had enough
problems I thought that the keyboard was definitely broken. Since then I’ve
had minimal to no problems. Certain typing styles certainly could make the
keyboard unusable.

------
brandonmenc
I love the new MBP keyboard.

I have it connected to an external monitor most of the time, but I relish any
chance I get to work away from the office - just for the opportunity to use
the built-in keyboard.

~~~
psychometry
I prefer the trackpad over a mouse and don't mind the keyboard. Thus, I've
positioned my monitor directly over my laptop screen, stacking it on top of
books if necessary.

------
xBytez
Regardless of the issues with the keyboard, I've given it a try and I just
really can't enjoy typing on it, especially coming from a keyboard with
tactile switches.

------
ricw
I like the feel of the new keyboard, though I have two issues with it: 1.
sometimes buttons do lock up. i'm unsure whether this is the same issue as in
the article, but by pressing them harder they typically start working again.
2. the keyboard is much louder than the one on my prior MacBook pro. I feel
very self-conscious whenever i type anywhere public. Maybe this is just me
being self-conscious..

~~~
saurik
I have also noticed that the new keyboard is much louder, which would be
tolerable if it were higher quality, but it isn't: it is simply inferior
technology.

------
lokerfoi
Just read it and after about 4 months my B needs extra presses to work. Jinxed
myself.

------
bdcravens
Am I the only one who would prefer the old style keys but keep the Touch ID?

------
JoshMnem
Try ThinkPad + Linux. Amazing environment for programming, $1,000+ cheaper
than MBP, nice keyboards, better specs for the price, including several years
of at-home next-day repair service.

~~~
mrgoldenbrown
I've found the "cheaper" part is situational. When I bought my Macbook Air,
the comparable Thinkpad (X1 Carbon) was the same price, when I specced them
the same.

~~~
JoshMnem
I'm not sure about the X1. The T460 was much cheaper than a MBP with
significantly better support and specs (except for the screen, which didn't
matter to me, since I don't edit photos or video seriously).

------
Camillo
I just realized that they don't even sell the old form factor any more. They
kept it around for a while, but now it's gone.

Where can I get an old-style MBP?

------
singularity2001
if you are a halfways professional and care about your fingers never type on
_any_ laptop keyboard unless you absolutely have to.

------
MentallyRetired
What, you don't like hunting-and-pecking your function row?

~~~
valleyer
That's not at all what the article is about.

------
mnm1
I wonder if at some point we'll see lawsuits over these horrible keyboards
from people with repetitive stress injuries. I sure hope so. This problem was
foreseen and could have been avoided but Apple refused. Now it's turned into a
multiplicity of problems. Personally I'm done with Apple's shitty products.

