
Things to know about sleep as the clocks go back - usgroup
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-41666563
======
Pxtl
Aside, whatever political party calls for ending the time changes and
switching to permanent DST gets my vote. My kids are positively _feral_ for
the week after a time change.

~~~
bryanlarsen
"permanent DST"

Which would mean it would be dark when school starts. It's hard enough to get
them out the door on time as is. I fully support getting rid of the time
change, but not by making DST permanent.

~~~
aleksei
I don't know about kids, but I'd prefer to enjoy the precious few moments of
sunlight after work, rather than catch a glimpse of it on the way to work and
then waste away the sunlight hours in an office.

Also, wake up lights.

~~~
LeifCarrotson
Agreed. Sunlight before school is only glimpsed through windows, which is not
worth sacrificing the opportunity to spend time outside in the evening.

~~~
zanny
A lot of people are borderline incapable of waking up in the dark and
functioning normally throughout the day. There are a lot of physiological
triggers sunlight exposure in the morning does to naturally wake most people
up, and deviating from those can be quite unhealthy.

~~~
LeifCarrotson
Artificial lighting, white not yellow, and lots of it, can help with that.

Anecdotally, when I moved my clothes into the guest room and got ready for the
day with all the lights on instead of getting dressed by nightlight, I was
much more wakeful. Also made fewer errors with navy/black socks :)

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
In Australia, Philips sell an LED bulb call SceneSwitch[1] (formerly Choose
Scenes), which alternate between cool and warm white when switched off and
back on. I've installed in all but the bedrooms.

1\. [https://www.philips.com.au/c-m-li/choose-a-
bulb/sceneswitch](https://www.philips.com.au/c-m-li/choose-a-bulb/sceneswitch)

------
etatoby
For many years (decades even) starting during childhood or adolescence, I used
to wake up exactly 4 hours after falling asleep. One moment I was sleeping
soundly, the moment right after I was wide awake. It was so precise that I
used to look at the clock, subtract 4 hours, and know exactly the time I
managed to fall asleep the night before.

It was not stressful at all. I would get up, go to the bathroom, drink some
water. Maybe read a book, a manga, study an algorithm, or write something. It
was a very peaceful time of the day—rather, the night—to do something with a
clear mind; no noise or other people around. I was not sleepy nor groggy and I
could choose when to go to sleep again. But I knew I should not drag that time
forever, because I still needed to get around 4 hours of sleep before finally
getting up in the morning, or I would have a miserable day.

I never thought much about it, until reading about 'biphasal' sleep and how
people of times past used to sleep like that.

These days my sleep is more troubled than in my teens and twenties and I have
a tighter sleep schedule—probably because I've always been a night owl and I
don't have anybody nagging me about going to bed early, so I don't. Somewhere
along the way, I lost the habit of biphasal sleep.

I cannot say whether it's correlation or causation (let alone which way), but
I used to sleep much better during my biphasal sleep years.

PS. articles like this describe me to a T, dunno if it has anything to do with
it: [https://lonerwolf.com/9-signs-youre-an-old-
soul/](https://lonerwolf.com/9-signs-youre-an-old-soul/)

------
stinos
Hmm, had no idea long sleep is also linked to developing more diseases. Also
makes one wonder in what way the causal effect (if any?) works, i.e. do those
people tend to sleep more because of the diseases or is it the other way
around?

~~~
vanderZwan
I can give one concrete example of where it definitely is causal.

There was a short BBC documentary series about sleep a few years ago, and one
of the episodes focused on a man who slept for ten hours a day and still felt
drowsy and without energy. After going through a sleep clinic with all kinds
of tests, the conclusion was that _he should try to sleep only six hours_.

The basic issue was that because he spent ten hours a day in bed, trying to
catch up on what he _thought_ was a lack of sleeping causing his tiredness,
his body never got tired enough to enter deep sleep. Because he missed his
deep sleep cycles, his sleep did not recover his energy properly. So this was
a vicious cycle.

After a few weeks of forcing himself to wake up after six hours of sleep his
problems were basically solved.

So the thing to remember is that duration of sleep tells you nothing about the
_quality_ of sleep.

EDIT: While we're here, I've had a lot of sleeping problems in the past, so
here some other tips that I remember from this series, and from my sister who
studied chronobiology (the science of internal clocks in biological systems,
including sleep cycles):

\- Note emphasized enough by this article: the deep sleep cycle is necessary
for cleaning your brain from neurodegenerating toxins[0]. Getting that stage
three deep sleep is essential for your mental health!

\- Don't use alcohol to induce sleepiness: yes, it makes you fall asleep
faster, but it also prevents you from the deep sleep. You end up not being
refreshed afterwards.

\- Train your brain to associate your bed with sleeping. If you can't sleep,
leave the bed, do something that's not so stimulating that it keeps you awake
like reading a book (avoid that mobile phone at all cost) until you feel
sleepy enough to go back. This article singles out teenagers here, which is
ridiculous: adults are just as guilty of doing this to themselves.

\- Because of the previous point, make sure you don't use your laptop/phone in
bed, nor have a TV in the bedroom.

\- The reason warm baths can help with falling sleep: a fast drop from a high
core temperature to a low temperature triggers drowsiness. So what the bath
does is heath you up until you are warm. If you then leave that bath and enter
a cold bed that needs to be warmed up this triggers a sleep response. Hot milk
probably gives a similar trigger, but I'm sure about that one.

\- Fasting can help with jet lag. Specifically: don't eat for at least sixteen
hours (drinking water is fine), then eat your first meal at breakfast
(tangent: "break fast"). This resets the body clock.

[0] [https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/brain-may-
flus...](https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/brain-may-flush-out-
toxins-during-sleep)

~~~
fredley
This, so much. I went through a very similar experience - having tried
spending longer and longer in bed in frustration at my insomnia, I did a
course[1] that measured how much of that time I was actually asleep, then
_restricted_ my time in bed to that amount and no more. Having trained my body
to sleep when in bed, I could then extend it slightly week by week, until I
found the optimum I need (7.5 hours).

[1]: [https://www.sleepio.com/](https://www.sleepio.com/)

~~~
matwood
This is why it's common advice that if you cannot sleep, get out of bed. Go
clean the house or do some light exercise until you feel tired, and then try
again.

I can usually fall asleep fine, but will often wake up early and can't get
back to sleep. If it's anytime after 5am, I just get up and start my day.

------
83457
I'd be interested in seeing a study about how having many timezones in a
region affects sleep. For example in the US there are activities that are
geared towards the west coast that keeps the east coast up later. Some that
come to mind are sports. Between NFL games, UFC events and esports matches I
have stayed up many nights for two or three hours later than someone on the
west coast would have to for the same purposes.

~~~
dorfsmay
Why couldn't you just watch it the next day? I haven't watch "live TV" in
years, get all my content from the internet, it actually feels weird that in
2017people still let events and TV programs dictate their schedules.

~~~
petecox
If you have the discipline not to peek at the scores... My neighbour watches
soccer from his home country at odd hours of the night, going to work a couple
of hours later. Says he'd otherwise only watch a replay knowing his team had
won and then it takes away the suspense. His wife makes him sleep in the guest
room!

~~~
pbhjpbhj
I'm not sure of the details but there was something recently saying knowing
the ending, I think it was focused on movies, actually leads to greater
enjoyment (or possibly excitement). It was surprising to me, I go a long way
to avoid spoilers -- I'd imagine the same would happen with sports matches.

I don't generally watch sport, nor follow a team, but when I do it's good
sport whether I know the result or not.

~~~
petecox
Some people like to know there's 'twist' ending and the thrill is figuring out
who did it. I avoided spoilers for Blade Runner 2049; Harrison Ford was in it
and if you've seen the first movie that's all you need know!

------
agumonkey
One tiny but helpful trick i got by reading about sleep is the ~2h cycle.

I know if I wake up and I can't fall asleep right away, I'll just have to do
something for 90minutes and it will come again. It's stress free.

------
methodover
Gosh I wish I could sleep like I used to when I was a teenager. I constantly
wake up throughout the night. Can't sleep in if I wanted to. Probably get 6
hours of sleep a night if you subtract wakeful interruptions.

Not sure why. I'm not overweight at all, 10% body fat. Exercise every day for
at least half an hour, usually more, running, weightlifting, sports. Work
isn't stressful. I don't get it.

~~~
unabridged
Small noises will wake me up instantly, I have to have a fan or white noise
filling the room to sleep soundly. Also if you haven't already try to make
your room pitch black, tape any leds on electronics and get blackout curtains.

~~~
methodover
Hmm, I wonder if small noises is it. The upstairs neighbors had a kid a few
years back. He's loud. During the day, though. I don't often find myself
waking up to the kid's noise -- I just find myself waking up. Maybe I'm waking
up to the kid and just don't realize it. Hmm.

------
JepZ
> 2\. What happens in your body when you don't sleep enough?

You happen to create blurry charts ;-)

------
vanderZwan
That morning/evening chart at the end is kind of worthless in how vague it is.
I mean, it's very low-resolution approximation of a normal distribution,
without telling me anything about what it means to be a morning or evening
person, or what distinguishes "moderate" from "extreme".

------
djhworld
I was reading this yesterday [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-
sh/its_four_in_the_m...](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-
sh/its_four_in_the_morning) about people who wake up at 4am

The yoga teacher baffled me the most, only taking 4 hours or so of sleep a
night. I really can't imagine that working for me, 7.5 - 8 hours just seems to
hit the sweet spot.

~~~
chiefalchemist
The brain needs sleep more than the body. If you're using your brain more than
the yoga teacher then it makes sense you need more sleep. Of course, different
people are wired differently but as a rule of thumb it appplies.

Slightly off topic (i.e., it's about the brain and not sleep) but the book
"Your Brain at Work" by David Rock is a personal fave.

~~~
chillwaves
> If you're using your brain more than the yoga teacher then it makes sense
> you need more sleep.

How could you possibly measure these values?

~~~
chiefalchemist
I'm not sure how you'd measure it for this example. But I can tell you "Your
Brain at Work" explains how and why thinking (as abstract as that sounds here)
is a finite resource.

------
k__
I stopped setting an alarm most times of the week and sleep for 10h every day
(2-12).

After over a month I noticed that I would wake up earlier. I wake up after 7-9
hours and feel rather refreshed. Most of the time I still sleep 10h because I
staying in bed so much.

~~~
zanny
Very similar. If I try to force a sleep schedule I'm just miserable. If I drop
alarms I sleep for 10 hours for a while before getting a natural 8 hour sleep
cycle back.

That being said, I loathe those days I sleep 10 hours. Hell, I'm super jealous
of people that can function on 6 hours. Every hour spent sleeping is an hour
of life I miss out on. I really hope in our lifetimes we can engineer
something to dramatically reduce the need for sleep.

------
aesclepius
I like that I'm reading this while coming off night shift (medical resident).
I wholeheartedly agree that sleep is essential to life and healthiness.

~~~
DoofusOfDeath
I like that people making life and death decisions for others are sleep
deprived.

------
DrScump
I've found the free Sleep Cycle[0] app to be very useful visualizing my sleep
patterns, plus it lets you set a 30' window (free version; perhaps other
options in the paid version) for waking at a near-waking point naturally.

[0]
[https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.northcube....](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.northcube.sleepcycle&hl=en)

or

[https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/sleep-cycle-alarm-
clock/id32...](https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/sleep-cycle-alarm-
clock/id320606217?mt=8)

------
sowbug
To avoid confusion for anyone in the US reading the linked article, the parts
of the US that observe Daylight saving time will change in a week (November
5), not tomorrow (October 29).

------
seanmcdirmid
China lacks DST, and I swear the sun is out at 4AM in the summer. I guess the
problem is that the time zone is already biased so that the sun is out at
6:30ish even in the winter, it just rises earlier in the summer. And that’s
just for Beijing of course, the whole country is under one giant time zone.

~~~
shagie
China's timezone is calibrated for Shanghai. The western border is about two
hours off of solar time (
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_zone#/media/File:Solar_ti...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_zone#/media/File:Solar_time_vs_standard_time.png)
). Compare China's +8:30 which border's India's +5:30.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Urumqi is about 1.5 hours off, and stores/schools have localized schedules to
compensate. I guess Kashgar is even more worse off.

------
kzrdude
Last chart: UK and Spain have a 1 hour time zone difference, but apparently
only 15 minutes difference in bed time. (On approximately same longitude)

~~~
sdfjkl
It also neglects to mention the entirely different lifestyle in Spain,
different attitude towards work, not to mention the siesta, which one would
think worth noting in a sleep related article :)

~~~
icebraining
Siestas are pretty much only taken by old people and kids, even in Spain.
Multiple polls have shown the average working-age adult never or rarely takes
one.

------
webscalist
Damn PagerDuty

~~~
fideloper
and newborns

~~~
codycraven
And 4 year olds...

~~~
drdeadringer
You're not kidding. Way back when, my younger sister went through a phase of
waking me up at 4am to play right around that age. Saw some of my first
sunrises out of it, but I'm glad it stopped happening.

------
Bromskloss
Ha! Clocks have no influence over my sleep if I don't change my schedule with
the clock!

------
ivanhoe
There's nothing more depressive to me then waking up in the morning and it's
both cold and pitch dark outside. So, unlike so many people in this thread, I
happen to like the DST.

