
College Is (Almost) Obsolete - diego
http://diegobasch.com/college-is-almost-obsolete
======
netcan
Big Hairy institutions like "college" are too hard to think about all bundled
up. It's an important cultural institution. It's mixed in with research. It's
a filter for employers. It's job training. It's education. It's a reason for
16 year old to work hard at school.

To replace it you might need Kahn Academy, 2 years in the army, Tinder and
some sort of coming of age ceremony with body paint and singing.

If we're limiting the question to "can he get a job doing this" you might be
able to answer it more logically. But I'd be hesitant to take an average 17
year old and recommend they spend 2 or 4 years studying independently over the
internet. Too solipsistic.

IMO, if online learning is to be a replacement for college, it needs to be a
part of something more.. more.

I could imagine a setup including 25 students and a professor-coach, for
example. Some sort of context.

^All that said, the US system seems nut.

~~~
minikites
Exactly.

I see posts like this and I recall how many of my STEM friends hated the
concept of liberal arts classes, decrying them as useless and unnecessary to
their degree, where I think the liberal arts are essential to being a
meaningful adult. It's also important for good government and being a good
citizen:

[http://press.princeton.edu/titles/9112.html](http://press.princeton.edu/titles/9112.html)

> Anxiously focused on national economic growth, we increasingly treat
> education as though its primary goal were to teach students to be
> economically productive rather than to think critically and become
> knowledgeable and empathetic citizens. This shortsighted focus on profitable
> skills has eroded our ability to criticize authority, reduced our sympathy
> with the marginalized and different, and damaged our competence to deal with
> complex global problems. And the loss of these basic capacities jeopardizes
> the health of democracies and the hope of a decent world.

~~~
zaccus
I love the liberal arts, but the idea that everyone _needs_ to study them in
order to be a good citizen is overstated at best. It's like saying everyone
needs to learn to code to be a good citizen: a pretty thing to say, easy to
find people who agree, but it doesn't actually make sense.

Whether we like it or not, college really is career training for most people.
And it's ridiculously expensive. College would be a lot less expensive for
most people without these arbitrary requirements that serve no real purpose.

~~~
minikites
I would be interested to know if you think there is any particular subject
that everyone needs to know, if you don't think the liberal arts are one of
those things.

And I didn't phrase my idea well in the original comment, I don't think
everyone needs to study the liberal arts at a college level, but everyone
should be familiar with them as a whole by adulthood, no matter how you come
across them (autodidactically, etc)

------
ColinWright

        > I have no intention of starting a
        > college fund for my son, ...
    

Start it anyway! If he wants to start his own company, you'll want to be able
to support him. If he wants to buy a house, you'll want to be able to support
him. If he wants to become a doctor, you'll want to be able to support him.

Guess what - it doesn't matter _what_ he wants to do - you'll want to be able
to support him, and having that fund will make that easier/possible.

This will probably get a lot of votes here because HN is resolutely anti-
formal education, but that's no reason not to have the fund in place in case
that's the way the child want to go.

~~~
k-mcgrady
Is the college fund a uniquely American thing? I come from a relatively middle
class background (UK) and don't know anyone whose parents paid for college.
Their kids took out loans and got jobs like everyone else. I know some people
got help with accommodation costs but most didn't.

~~~
istorical
It's more common in America only because university costs have skyrocketed in
the United States to astronomical proportions.

But even with America it's a class thing. For the upper middle class and above
you can consider college funds along with summer camps, piano lessons, private
SAT tutors, etc. as optional expenses for kids that everyone would love to be
able to afford but not everyone can.

For those that can afford them it's great. But for those who can't, it can be
kind of an affront to see it thrown about as something any loving parent would
provide their child with.

~~~
fredkbloggs
> It's more common in America only because university costs have skyrocketed
> in the United States to astronomical proportions.

True in general, but not in the specific. The "big name" universities, mainly
private, and the UC system have become so expensive that they are out of reach
for the typical working stiff with a high school diploma. That does not mean
that every university, or even every university worth attending, is priced
that way. Most people in the United States have access to a public university
system that will offer them a bachelor's degree that can be paid for solely by
working for ordinary wages over the course of 3-6 years. Many of those with
good academic records would also qualify for scholarships, and from one's
second year onward there are often assistantship positions (teaching,
research, administrative) available that may be more convenient or lucrative
than other work. Despite the doom-and-gloom you read here and pretty much
everywhere else, a 17-year-old American does have choices other than an
uneducated lifetime of grinding poverty or entering the workforce half a
million dollars in debt.

------
kaolinite
Four years ago, I fell in love with the idea of not needing to go to college.
It's a meritocracy, they said. If I work hard, spend time learning on my own
time and get experience then a degree won't matter at all. It's just a piece
of paper, after all. And so I didn't accept the place I had at a decent (UK)
university.

Four years later, I'm doing ok. I recently left my job to start a startup. And
I was right, I didn't need to go. But honestly, I really wish I had. I'd like
to move to the US to work, but without a degree that's very hard. There are a
number of jobs I'm interested in that haven't "caught up with the times" and
still require a degree. Maybe they'll change with time, but maybe not.

I was in Silicon Valley a year or so ago and was invited to a dinner at YC,
with other attendees of Startup School. The second question almost everyone
asked me, after "what are you working on?", was "which school did you go to?".
And that was at YC. College isn't obsolete, no matter how much we wish it was.
Not even close.

~~~
ashark
I'm finishing my degree online now _solely_ so I can stop explaining why I
don't have a degree and, relatedly, for (possible, no definite plans)
immigration purposes. Even people who will hire you without a degree always
ask, and it's never a good part of the conversation–at best it's _not awful_.

------
andreaferretti
So the author acknowledges the fact tht for many profession, college education
is still required, but assumes that his son will get into programming, where
it not _that_ needed and hence decides not to save money?

~~~
hudell
or that the kid should decide by himself and find it's own way to pay for
college

------
short_circut
I find the requirement for an active Github account to be questionable. 99% of
the code I write is owned my someone else. I do after all work for a living. I
wonder how true this is of many other people too. If I am writing code at home
then I am probably not spending much time to make it look nice. I don't have
time to write it at home much less make it look good to a recruiter.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Bingo! I'm a professional, writing code every day for my customers. Who has
time to make a pretty code collage on Github?

~~~
short_circut
I don't and I suspect a lot of other people don't either.

------
Mahn
Did you consider your son may not want to become a software engineer when he
grows up?

~~~
nosequel
Seriously, hope his son doesn't want to do anything in the medical, bio,
animal, plant, research, teaching, etc., etc. field. This post is so horribly
short-sighted it is scary.

~~~
diego
Author here. I studied Electrical Engineering for free at the University of
Buenos Aires. Moved to the US in the 90s, got my masters degree, moved to
Silicon Valley, did great. My parents both studied medicine in Argentina for
free as well. My son will know that it's possible to get a world-class college
education in other countries without spending a small fortune. Have you
considered that? If not, I could say you're the short-sighted one.

~~~
Crito
So basically you are saying that you will tell your son to go back to
Argentina if he wants to attend University?

You know, I don't think your advice is very good. I think instead I'll go the
"college fund" route for my kids. It is laughable that you think college is
almost obsolete because you can get it for free in Argentina. That makes no
sense whatsoever.

------
ef4
A funny thing about college is that the absolute value of a degree keeps
dropping, but the relative gap between "has degree" and "lacks degree" keeps
growing.

It's analogous to monetary inflation: give almost everybody a bunch of new
money and you don't make them much richer -- the currency just buys less than
it used to. But people who don't get any of the new money end up significantly
worse off.

There is a fundamental tension between egalitarianism and elitism when it
comes to college. Fifty years ago, any college degree was a signal of elite
status. Today, only the most exclusive colleges still provide that signal,
which is why the pressure around them is greater than ever.

I agree with the author's basic premise that college-as-we-know-it won't
continue, because the economics don't line up. But it will be the large
middle-tier of colleges that die or change. The high end is still going strong
because it still signals elitism. And the low end -- the community colleges --
still provides reasonable value for the money.

------
steego
Why are we giving credit to this click-bait PR stunt for Platzi?

Let me quickly sum this up. We have a guy who works for a tiny online training
company that provides a whopping 7 classes talking about how online vocational
training is going to make traditional college irrelevant.

One of the largest online vocational trainers, PluralSight has 1300+ classes
online, and you don't hear them spouting nonsense about not saving money to
send their kids to college. The don't spout that nonsense, because they
understand their training supplements a CS degree. It's designed to provide
professionals with timely knowledge after they get their meat and potatoes
from the university.

Can we replace our university education with something more affordable and
accessible? While I hope we do, it's not immediately clear how that's going to
happen. There's a lot of vague hand-wavy ideas, but nobody has really pulled
off creating an alternative education program that's earned industry respect.
Certainly not Platzi, and based on what I've seen so far, their curriculum
seems to be designed to appeal to students rather than people hiring.

I too am tired of universities jacking up prices so they can build extravagant
and academically useless facilities and pay for extravagant salaries for
administrators and football coaches while giving actual educators the shaft.

While I hope that happens, let's not start gambling our kids' education funds
based on the insightless advice of a guy who literally has a financial
conflict of interest on the subject.

Don't feed the trolls, especially the PR variety.

~~~
freddier
Wow. We were mentioned in 6 bytes, steego.

At Platzi, we just launched in English. We've been doing this for the Spanish-
speaking world for two years (switch from EN to ES in the header to check it
out), with more than "7 classes".

I understand why you might think what you do, but you seemed to infer A LOT
from a single link the author gave to us.

Without that link, would you think differently about the article?

~~~
steego
Sorry about that. Click-bait PR stunt was too strong. (I'd edit my post if I
could). I really do think it's an honest opinion, but it's a vague opinion of
somebody who's hopeful of the success of their company.

Without the link, I'd still think the opinion of the article is vaguely
hopeful and a little reckless with the whole "I'm not saving for my kids
education" because online education will magically replace our expensive
offline education system.

------
dragontamer
> As I said four years ago, I probably won’t interview someone who doesn’t
> have a LinkedIn profile and a GitHub account with some activity

This guy is nuts. A good number of our best recruits didn't have either.

~~~
anthony_d
Yes he is.

There are giant corporations that fire for personal use of GitHub or providing
any job details on LinkedIn.

------
hvs
Like other's have mentioned, this is largely for software development. There
is still a ton of social signaling that a degree imparts to its owner for it
to disappear from the American landscape any time soon.

That said, anyone can see that the current secondary education environment in
the U.S. will change dramatically over the next 20 years. Sky-rocketing
tuition, few job prospects, changing business landscape; all of which means
_something_ is going to happen. And somebody is going to make a lot of money
capitalizing on it.

------
panglott
Not only is he certain that his son will be a programmer, he is also certain
that the labor market for programmers will be exactly the same in 15-20 years
as it is right now.

------
vezzy-fnord
Author freely acknowledges this only might be the case for programming, more
or less disproving the implication given by their article title.

Higher education has become too firmly entrenched as an essential walk of life
(it's pretty much become trivialized as an extension of public school that
you're expected to attend) for it to grow obsolete anytime soon. Attending
physical courses might drop, but that's the most I can personally expect.

------
beat
I'm watching my daughter struggle with this. Her first year of college was a
complete failure - she couldn't adapt to the environment. After some poking at
community college, she realized that she needs to pursue her true passion,
which is creating food that is both delicious and ethical. The college world
says "Well, spend forty grand a year on culinary school so you can make
$12/hour when you get out". She doesn't think that's either financially
sensible, or the best way to find a career in food (there are other things to
do besides being a chef).

That changed for her this weekend. Through a lucky bit of accidental
networking, I got her an interview at a place owned by a world famous chef,
who happens to be her favorite chef whose food she has actually eaten. She'll
spend her days working as a prep cook, learning the methods and concepts of a
genius. And getting paid for it. And if she does well, she can get a reference
for her next job from an internationally-known chef.

That's better than college, for her.

~~~
cartoonfoxes
That sounds awesome. Best of luck to her!

------
antidaily
_there’s a growing list of professions that will employ smart and resourceful
people regardless of where or how they acquired their skills._

Unemployment for people with just a bachelors is like 11% less than people
without one. Worth hundreds of thousands? Probably not. But going to a state
school, which can be saved for tax-free, won't cost that.

~~~
cocoablazing
"Those with bachelor's degrees, no matter the field, earn vastly more than
counterparts with some college ($1.55 million in lifetime earnings) or a high
school diploma ($1.30 million lifetime), indicating that no matter the level
of attainment or the field of study, simply earning a four-year degree is
often integral to financial success later in life."
[http://www.usnews.com/education/best-
colleges/articles/2011/...](http://www.usnews.com/education/best-
colleges/articles/2011/08/05/how-higher-education-affects-lifetime-salary)

~~~
fredkbloggs
One would reasonably expect that the price of a university education and the
opportunity cost of not having one will converge. If the discounted present
marginal value of an education at X University is $Y, X University ought to
charge at least $Y to attend. Different X may imply different Y, but the logic
is the same. And since prospective students have effectively unlimited ability
to borrow, there is no obvious reason this convergence should not take place.
The only questions are whether it has done so already, and if so whether
irrational bidders have also increased the price beyond that point.

------
untog
The Rising Cost of Not Going to College:
[http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2014/02/11/the-rising-cost-
of...](http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2014/02/11/the-rising-cost-of-not-going-
to-college/)

TL;DR: people without a college education earn less, on average. Yes, in the
software development/startup industry that is not necessarily the case, but in
society in general it absolutely is. So unless your son is 100% guaranteed to
go into programming (and please, please don't force him to) a college fund
might still be a wise choice.

~~~
joshuapants
> So unless your son is 100% guaranteed to go into programming

And let's keep in mind that today's cultural norms in software dev probably
won't be the same in the future. Maybe earnings will be much lower, or they'll
stay high but companies will be more selective.

~~~
untog
True. In fact, maybe it's best to extrapolate a college fund out to be
insurance - nothing more, nothing less. Maybe the entire college education
system will have come falling down by the time your child is 18, but I'll bet
there is still something they can use it for to give themselves a significant
leg up in life.

------
chrisdbaldwin
In 20XX, what will be a better indicator of entry-level qualification: a
repository with 4 years of course work in it, or a college degree?

Home schooling college is significantly cheaper. A bootstrapped education
would be self-defined. This is freeing and terrifying. The person must be self
motivated. Goals could be hard to define. This path is risky in US culture,
but could yield much greater return on investment financially. Because this is
counter-cultural, the “Greener Grass” syndrome would most certainly exist.
"What if I went to college?"

A college degree yields access and exposure to topics which are prohibitive
while working without professors and labs. Mathematics, engineering, science,
and liberal arts all have language barriers which college professors help
alleviate. Having peers and mentors to speak those languages with is highly
valuable. The financial cost of college is far too high. Non-major required
courses make up approximately half of a degree. A 2 year time commitment for
what is seen as esoteric knowledge results in unnecessary stress and
frustration. Perhaps making those courses free, not required, or pass/fail
would be sufficient. In short, college isn't perfect.

Which person is truly a better candidate for a job is completely up to the
business culture. Do people with college degrees prefer college degrees?

------
ergest
I hated liberal arts classes while in college. "They're useless!" I used to
decry. I optimized my classes for my degree and took the bare minimum
requirements. Only now do I see how useful they would have been if I had taken
more. The only thing that sucks is how much they cost.

------
jamesfe
The logic in this article is near-insane.

"In the absence of linkedin and github, we chose candidates based on
colleges...now that we have those, I judge based on that."

Does this imply that because they're a stronger signal for performance at a
company (debatable) that they're a good stand in for education?

------
rifung
I agree with the author, but only to an extent. It certainly seems to be the
case that the degree itself matters less and less when finding a job. I myself
don't have a degree, although I did go to college.

On the other hand, I think the real problem is that most people go to college
because they think it will help them land a job. This is certainly true in
some fields as the author stated. But, I honestly feel like you should go to
school to learn, not to get a job. If you wanted the skills to land a job you
should go to a trade school, not a RESEARCH university.

I have been able to get jobs without a degree, but I definitely do not regret
going to college. If anything I wish I could go back and study more, because I
really do feel like the things I learned helped me become a better developer.

------
aklein
Going to a "prestigious" college - say, one of the Ivy League schools - has a
huge positive network effect on your career, if you want to capitalize on it.
It's valuable social proof, at least for the first decade after you graduate,
and counts for at least as much as merit and hard work, however frustrating
that may be for the hard-working and meritorious high school grad determined
not to go to college. You are going to get to know people and walk through
doors that you just couldn't if you never went. Yes, Mark Zuckerberg dropped
out of Harvard, but he still _went_ , and happened to make a critical set of
connections there.

------
dustinlakin
There are so many different paths available when college is on the table. Even
for software developers, it starts you with a very strong base and gives you
the ability help and contribute to research that is happening on campus. My
computer science degree was not cheap, but it was so important in my personal
life and my career. I agree that college isn't perfect, but was well worth my
investment in it.

I personally want to make sure my children have as many options on the table.
I would value their education as a much more important investment than any
other luxuries.

------
serve_yay
> As I said four years ago, I probably won’t interview someone who doesn’t
> have a LinkedIn profile and a GitHub account with some activity.

Indeed, those things are much better than college. (???????)

~~~
dev56
This bias is just as bad as those who won't interview someone without a
college degree. Lots of good developers don't have an active GitHub account.
Why is it considered essential to spend all your spare time coding in addition
to your full-time job? And unfortunately, a lot of companies won't even give
you the time of day (despite lots of experience) if you don't have a college
degree. I'd certainly not call it close to obsolete.

------
pacofvf
As a Electronics engineer whom does software only, there's no way that
superior education is going away anytime soon. Yes for Front end stuff and
basic back end stuff any smart self-thought developer will do, but for
anything more complex stuff you need at least a Engineering degree.

~~~
jeena
I see that at work too, sure the self thought guys get it done to but somehow
different, not as structured somehow.

