
Visa card network crashes, causing increased decline rates across UK and Europe - adriancooney
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/jun/01/visa-card-network-crashes-and-sparks-payment-chaos
======
anoncoward111
Ironically my credit card info literally got stolen at a restaurant last night
and most of the purchases they tried to make were declined hahahahah

Honestly, I really enjoy using my credit card. I can buy anything, anytime,
online, the customer service department always resolves fraud quickly, and
they even pay me to use the damn thing

~~~
davnicwil
I know, it seems great. But who is paying for that fraud protection? Who is
paying for that customer service team? Who is paying for the fact you get paid
to use it?

In the end.. It's you, through slightly higher prices on everything you buy
every day because retailers have to price in the cost of credit card fees that
pay for all that.

~~~
mseebach
I've seen an estimate that credit cards are actually slightly cheaper overall
for the economy than cash, when you factor in everything. The physical
infrastructure to deal with cash is _not_ cheap.

~~~
stanleydrew
Even without the physical infrastructure it might be cheaper to use credit
cards. How much cash is lost in loose change after small transactions every
year? I'd bet more than 2%

~~~
ktta
Of cash used in every day transactions? Maybe.

Of cash used in bigger transactions that are replaced by credit cards? No way

------
wgyn
One thing to note: Visa Europe and Visa are distinct systems[0] and were
distinct entities until Visa Europe was re-acquired[1] by Visa in 2015.

[0] Source: I used to work in payments [1]
[https://www.visaeurope.com/newsroom/news/vi-to-acquire-
ve](https://www.visaeurope.com/newsroom/news/vi-to-acquire-ve)

~~~
thesimon
>until Visa Europe was re-acquired[0] by Visa in 2015.

Sadly. Visa Europe had some quite good policies such as banning ATM
surcharges. It also made the payment sector seem a bit more european, now it's
back to the US-duopoly.

On topic: Visa Europe cards are denied when used in other countries outside of
Visa Europe.

~~~
arprocter
A few years ago my European Visa debit card wouldn't work in the US unless
they ran it as credit.

It always worked fine at US ATMs, other than the first time I informed the
bank I was going overseas, which apparently they interpreted as 'please
disable my card'

~~~
krzyk
I used my European Visa debit card in USA few years ago without any problems.

~~~
NullPrefix
One time I've tested this feature and it works on my machine.

------
gargravarr
What's the betting someone pushed something to production on a Friday
afternoon and has now gone to the pub?

~~~
krona
At least to me, the fact this happens on a Friday evening suggests it's
deliberate, precisely because nobody with any sense would deploy something on
a Friday unless it's an emergency.

~~~
falcon620
Maybe someone forgot the golden rule: fire people on Monday mornings. Never on
Fridays.

~~~
stingraycharles
I thought the MBA handbook said you were supposed to fire them on Friday to
minimize the chance they go rogue?

~~~
falcon620
[https://www.businessmanagementdaily.com/1387/know-best-
days-...](https://www.businessmanagementdaily.com/1387/know-best-days-of-the-
week-to-hire-fire-and-do-evaluations)

That random site happens to agree with my kind of thinking, so I copied that
content in here:

"Fire on Mondays. This lets dismissed workers start looking for a job right
away.

Make job offers on Thursdays. If candidates need time to think, you can give
them one extra day. If you give them the whole weekend, they may find another
offer.

Give good job reviews on Fridays. It sets the mood for a good weekend, which
can be a reward in itself. It also prevents satisfied workers from "kicking
back" for the rest of the week.

Give poor job reviews on Mondays. This provides employees time to work out
improvements during the week, instead of stewing about them all weekend."

~~~
ihattendorf
One day to accept a job offer seems extremely short. If someone gives me one
day to accept a job offer, chances are I'm still interviewing elsewhere and
will decline unless it's my primary choice.

~~~
JeanMarcS
I guess that’s the point, to avoid thinking time. It’s from the interviewer
point of view

~~~
usrusr
The best candidates might come to an immediate decision if pressured that way.

~~~
yjftsjthsd-h
...yes, an immediate decision to reject an offer from a company trying to
pressure them like that. Or is that what you meant?

------
the_duke
Luckily, credit cards are really a second tier payment system in most of the
EU.

Country-specific (debit) cards and the international Maestro payment system
are the primary way to pay, along with cash. Apart from online shopping, of
course. But even there, you usually have other viable payment options.

So it's probably not all that much chaos...

~~~
martinald
Not in the UK, it's all mastercard/visa now.

~~~
Filligree
Visa Debit, though?

~~~
falcon620
"it's all mastercard/visa now" shows us he/she likely doesn't understand the
vast difference between debit and credit cards.

If anyone from the UK who does understand that difference would chime in, that
would be helpful.

~~~
makomk
It's all Mastercard/Visa now in the UK, for both debit and credit cards - and
I think Visa is probably the more common of the two these days. Debit cards
are pretty much always Visa here and have been for about a decade now.

~~~
falcon620
Yeah, that's not helpful, I'm afraid. Also demonstrably incorrect. Amex is
still operating in the UK, for example.

~~~
makomk
There is precisely one issuer of non-Mastercard/Visa credit cards in the UK -
Amex - and they're not accepted nearly as widely. There are exactly five banks
which issue Mastercard debit cards rather than Visa - Virgin Money, Citibank,
Clydesdale Bank, Yorkshire Bank, and Metro Bank - and none of them are
particularly major players. (I think it was down to three or less at one
point; Virgin and Citibank only switched in 2015.) Santander and TSB have
apparently announced they're planning to switch to Mastercard debit in the
future but currently their customers have Visa debit cards too. Maestro is
dead as a dodo here, and the old UK-specific Switch debit card system no
longer exists.

So in actual fact, people in the UK who're reliant on their debit cards are
more likely to be affected by this than people with credit cards too, even if
the cards are from the same bank - banks that issue Mastercard credit cards
generally use Visa for debit cards.

~~~
rahimnathwani
Transferwise recently started issuing MasterCard debit cards. I was surprised
that (i) it's technically a debit card, unlike Revolut's card which is a
prepaid card, and (ii) it's issued by Transferwise, not be some bank on their
behalf.

------
wil421
Glad I happen to be in Munich where cash is king otherwise I would’ve noticed.
Using cash here has made me rethink my habits.

Still no chance I will put down my AMEX. 6% cashback at Grocery stores, 3% at
the pump, and 3% at the department store I shop at. Even if I carry a balance
sometimes I made almost $700 back last year.

~~~
distances
Cashback is very US thing though, so using cash in Germany won't deprive you
from that. There are some companies offering modest cashback in Europe too,
but in my experience their cards are rarely accepted anywhere. Which is fine
by me, I'd rather have lower prices to start with.

~~~
thesimon
Amex is 0.5-1% cashback in Germany which is quite good.

SME Visa/MasterCards still give around 1% in airline miles.

~~~
distances
But I think Amex is very rarely accepted -- I don't own one, but judging by
the "we accept these cards" labels outside stores.

~~~
thesimon
I guess it depends what you are optimizing for.

Groceries is a quite big expense part for me, so REWE, Aldi and tegut in
Germany are quite good for earning. Other expenses are traveling, where
basically everyone accepts Amex. Starbucks accepts is as well, quite a lot of
McDonalds and most fashion retailers as well.

You probably can't survive on Amex alone, but at least in Germany there is a
quite big chunk that you can cover.

~~~
distances
Interesting, sounds like it is more widely accepted than I thought after all.

~~~
wil421
Small tip from a coworker in Europe, Amex has an website you can you to find
places around you.

www.amexvicinity.com

------
subcosmos
I wish I got into conventional currency, back in the days when mining it was
profitable. Like the Iron Age

~~~
NullPrefix
Pool mining is still profitable, although most of the pools aren't open to
general public.

------
lutorm
Isn't this why you're supposed to be able to do the old hand-imprinted manual
transactions? If they can't process the transaction, shouldn't they fall back
to the manual option?

~~~
joelhaasnoot
a) This isn't tested weekly b) I doubt any store actually has the
forms/equipment/etc for this

~~~
ams6110
Some cards don't even have the raised, embossed printing anymore, so the
imprint method wouldn't work.

~~~
gargravarr
And you can bet that even if they did, the staff wouldn't be trained in using
it. Particularly true for large stores with high turnovers of young workers.
Card machines going down is a one-in-a-million event.

~~~
blensor
It's not only the card network but also the infrastructure connecting the
store to the card network. And the card readers themselves as well. I would
say I am at least once a month in a store where, due to some incident, they
can't accept electronic payments and have a sign 'card payments not working'
on at least one checkout counter

------
crazygringo
Curious, do credit card companies provide SLA's?

If you lose x% of sales on a day due to customers not having alternative forms
of payment... is there anything a merchant can do to recoup their losses?

~~~
mkirklions
Merchants learn their lesson and look to alternative forms of payments...

Like... BITCO apple pay/android pay

~~~
s73v3r_
If the Visa network is down, those options wouldn't work either, would they?

------
ThJ
Would this be the reason why my DigitalOcean payment failed today?

~~~
smaddox
Great, so now I have to worry about a domain expiring because Visa is down
when the auto-renew posts!

------
mtgx
What was that whole thing about a "cashless society" again?

What happens when a major rival actually attacks your cashless society?

~~~
kossTKR
Yeah i don't know why people are downvoting you. A new Carrington event, which
is actually long overdue, or an unexpected cyber attack from China which i
also don't find impossible to imagine in the next decades and society is at an
absolute standstill.

Off course more important problems would probably arise before.

But reflecting on the sustainability of microchip-society in times of outage
is healthy.

Crash, Bang and suddenly everyone is 3 meals away from slaying their
neighbour.

~~~
sbov
If you only stock 3 meals at once, you have a much more likely problem on your
hands: natural disasters.

------
Geee
Is it possible to DDOS Visa network? Maybe someone figured out a way and
they're negotiating about ransom right now.

------
hacker_9
Yeah I just tried to pay with contactless at the Tesco self checkout, it
failed and the security guard told me to enter my PIN instead. That worked,
though I just checked my balance and see I've been charged twice for my
shopping. Fuming.

~~~
hamstercat
Just call your credit card issuer, they will remove one of the two. They may
not be perfect, but they have good customer service.

------
CosmicSteve
If a decentralized cryptocurrency platform could properly scale in the future,
likely with a stable cryptocurrency for currency usage, then this scenario
will become a thing of the past.

~~~
gomox
In all fairness credit cards have a much better reliability track record than
any cryptocurrency.

~~~
CosmicSteve
Currently? Correct, hence I'm referring to a network properly scaling in the
future. Ethereum currently has difficulties processing a image-based cat game,
nevermind actual transactions.

------
zubairq
Not all VISA transactions are protected. I had a scammer steal my credit card
while watching my pin entered at a restaurant and then withdraw cash. The bank
(Lloyds Bank in the UK) recfused to refund the money, even though there was
video of the thief withdrawing the money

------
ben509
Any thoughts why a system like Eagle Cash[1] couldn't be used more generally?
Obviously this particular design is stored value, but that's just a limit the
chip is tracking, there's no particular reason it couldn't be based on your
credit limit.

[1]
[https://www.fiscal.treasury.gov/fsservices/gov/pmt/eagleCash...](https://www.fiscal.treasury.gov/fsservices/gov/pmt/eagleCash/eagleCash_home.htm)

------
fwdpropaganda
See, if only Visa would be running on the blockchain, none of this would
happen /s

------
steve_gh
I'm a Brit currently in France

Can't get cash from any ATM right now using my Visa Debit card

~~~
thorin
Went to Tesco, uk around 430pm. they said they'd had card problems all
afternoon. my visa debit went through fine.

~~~
thesimon
>my visa debit went through fine.

Might've been an offline payment, do you see it in your online banking?

------
Havoc
Haha yeah. The scramble for “who has cash” was entertaining

------
kalleth
It isn't down.

I work for a large e-commerce company and we're seeing ~10% decline rates, at
most, on VISA cards only, and that's intermittent. Overall average decline
rate is more like 1-3% when you factor in the intermittentness of it.

Still not great, but not PAYMENT CHAOS and not a CRASH OF THE VISA NETWORK.

~~~
ben509
I think you and the media are both wrong. You're wrong because the
distribution of outage is rarely uniform. If 9 of 10 attempts worked,
customers would try their cards again and there'd be no story.

What we see here is that some customers are seeing a total outage, while
others are entirely unaffected. And the press is more wrong, because by
ignoring the 90% who are unaffected, they exaggerate the problem by an order
of magnitude.

~~~
kalleth
Interesting. Yes, this is certainly a possibility (and far worse for people
who are impacted).

~~~
subcosmos
maybe someone on the fraud detection end pushed a model with too high of a
sensitivity

------
parvenu74
The plug to support The Guardian by donating with your VISA card at the bottom
of an article about the VISA network being down caused me to laugh out loud.
#Ironic

------
falcon620
This is one of the reasons why every frequent traveller should carry credit
cards from at least two different banks _and_ two different credit card
companies (like Mastercard and Visa).

~~~
gargravarr
My bank recently replaced my Mastercard credit card with a Visa one, despite
being Mastercard for years. I also have a Visa debit card. You don't have
control over this :(

~~~
ben509
You can just fill out a form online and get another credit card from someone
else.

------
falcon620
This is one of IBM's flagship customers, isn't it? They're supposed to never
go down.

~~~
em3rgent0rdr
do we know that it was IBM's mainframes that went down, or some VISA software
update, or something else?

------
bungie4
Ha! Self-gloating. I cancelled my Visa just yesterday. Part of my self-imposed
program to return to a simpler life. But it's some sort of weird Schadenfreude
justification that it hasn't happened to me directly.

I'm rolling my life back to the 1980's. :D

