
Ask HN: ”Coffee date” etiquette - cpach
patio11 and other people on HN recommend that instead of just responding to job postings and sending out one’s resume, a better way to get a good job is to find hiring managers and meet them over a cup of coffee.<p>To me this sounds like sound advice. Still, I must admit it would feel a bit weird to ask my peers for their manager’s number and then ask the manager if they want to meet, just ”out of the blue”. Perhaps these customs vary from country to country. (I live in Sweden.)<p>I don’t know, maybe I’m overthinking this. I guess it’s just as simple as asking and see who will seize the opportunity? Or is there some ”coffee date etiquette” one should be aware of? :) Is it okey to ask someone (my peers) to give out someone else’s (the manager’s) number? <p>Also, my occupation is currently not programming, I’m rather targeting sysadmin&#x2F;application support jobs.
======
JohnBooty
The purpose of a coffee date is to weed out people who don't drink coffee. You
wouldn't want to work with such a freak of nature!

~~~
Raphmedia
You can learn a lot about someone's coffee habits. How much sugar, how much
milk. How much... whiskey.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Who drinks plain coffee? Latte, espresso, chai - single or double shot - soy
or low-fat, the list goes on and on!

~~~
davedx
I'd say about half the people in the Netherlands drink their coffee "gewoon"
("just")! Add too much milk and it's officially "verkeerd" (wrong). As in,
coffee machines in petrol stations have a "koffie verkeerd" button, presumably
for foreign truckers from far off lands where they spoil their delicious hot
beverage with... (blegh) milk.

~~~
mcv
Speaking of spoiling delicious beverages with milk, have you heard what the
English do to their tea?

~~~
J_Darnley
If you have tea that strong you are going to want to temper it with some milk.

------
PMan74
> Is it okey to ask someone (my peers) to give out someone else’s (the
> manager’s) number?

I generally get these kinds of invites via either email or LinkedIn. I
wouldn't appreciate a cold call.

After that the only etiquette I'd expect is: \- ask to meet close to my
office, I will not travel. I usually invite people to the office \- Expect no
more than 30 minutes \- You do the running during the meeting - don't expect
me to drive the meeting. If it looks like you'd be a fit I'll have my own
questions.

I'm Irish/based in Ireland.

------
thebiglebrewski
I think like everyone is kind of saying here, the key is an
introduction/intermediary to get your foot in the door. Even if it's just a
friend of a friend. Otherwise, you can always try to e-mail out of the blue
but calling is probably a little bit too aggressive. The worst thing that
could happen is that someone doesn't reply to your e-mail.

Also, I'd be prepared for this meeting to be not just about you getting a job.
Come with a lot of interesting questions to ask the person and make it about
them and their company. When they ask about you, casually drop that you're
looking for a new gig but don't make a big deal about it at all.

------
dsr_
I'm a sysadmin manager in the US. Let's suppose that I have a position open
(at [http://www.smartleaf.com/careers/](http://www.smartleaf.com/careers/))
and that you think you're qualified for it.

You could send me your resume and a cover letter. This would be impressive,
because very few people manage to do this according to my rigorous demands
(plain text or PDF, tell me a story about an interesting technical problem you
solved).

Or, if you knew someone at the company, you could talk to them and have them
talk to me. I will generally trust their opinion enough to set aside time for
coffee with you.

~~~
madmaze
Job Requirement: "You must be: Clever, competent and kind"

I wish more job descriptions were like this one. Straight and to the point,
not much fluff or buzzword padding all over the place.

~~~
GI_Josh
The kindness requirement is awesome and refreshing. I was shocked just how
much vitriol gets spewed in an average workplace, directed at customers,
fellow employees, inanimate objects. I gravitate towards the people I work
with that aren't like that, so specifying 'kindness' right up front is great.

------
mcguire
I don't want to speak for patio11 or anyone else, but "meeting over a cup of
coffee" shouldn't be thought of as "a way to get a good job", at least
directly. It's not a replacement for the interview process, anyway, at least
at any place of employment that won't fit into a single meeting room. Instead,
it's (a) a social occasion where you can (at least pretend) to (b) learn about
the employer or industry. (b) is as in, "what would I need to learn or do to
be an interesting employment prospect".

For (a), an introduction from someone you mutually know would be best, but
theoretically, a cold-call to the tune of, "I would like to know more about X
and Y, would you have a few minutes to talk to me," would be appropriate.

------
tarheel
The best way to get a job is to get a personal introduction to the hiring
manager and build rapport with them. I would not ask for their manager's
number. I would ask them to make an introduction. That will carry much more
weight. A "Coffee Date" is a common way to have that initial meeting. It is
perfectly reasonable to suggest (or have the person introducing you suggest)
meeting over coffee. It's just a social nicety that can help break the
formality of a first 'interview'.

------
ticviking
1\. Find an Introduction 2\. "Do Lunch" or "Do Coffee" don't call it a "date"
3\. Talk about problems that are interesting that you've solved(or that they
are solving) 4\. ??? 5\. Profit!

------
peterwwillis
Ask your peer for an introduction. It's always much better to be introduced by
someone the manager knows or respects than via a cold-call. (It plays on
association fallacy in your favor)

If you don't know anyone who knows the manager, find their contact information
and contact them, informing them you're very interested in the position they
have open and you would love to discuss it over coffee. It's not "out of the
blue" because they have been looking for someone to fill a position, and you
are that someone.

Also, keep in mind that some hiring managers may ignore you or put off
meeting/interviewing you until you bug them enough. I was kept in limbo for a
couple months once because I was afraid of being "pushy" while they were
basically waiting me out.

------
chatmasta
I always give the same answer to questions regarding social
etiquette/propriety: just be normal. Seriously, you're overthinking it. Just
be a normal person. Make people comfortable, help them get what they want, and
smile. That's all you need. If you think something is weird, it probably is,
purely because you'll make it weird by thinking that. Would you want to go on
a coffee date with someone who was worried it was a weird thing to do?

Dale Carnegie knew what he was talking about. In general, if you treat people
like people, you'll do well.

~~~
cpach
Great advice!

I’ve seen PG/YC recommend _How to Win Friends and Influence People_ from time
to time, so I should probably get myself a copy.

------
dh0913
I have had a lot of current/potential candidates ask me to get coffee and I
usually avoid it unless a) they come highly recommended from someone I trust
and/or b) they appear to be exceptionally qualified. Unless one or both of
those are met, I think the meetings are more often than not a waste of time
unfortunately. However, if it's someone who comes recommended from someone I
trust and appears to be a great fit for a role we are hiring now or in the
future, I'll jump at the opportunity to meet and prioritize that.

------
normloman
How common is it to have a peer who can introduce you to a hiring manager? I
have plenty of friends, and none can get me a meeting with a hiring manager at
a good company. Most of my friends are unemployed or working at Panera Bread.

Any advice?

~~~
owenmarshall
> How common is it to have a peer who can introduce you to a hiring manager?

I haven't gotten a job in the last... six or seven years _without_ an
introduction.

> Most of my friends are unemployed or working at Panera Bread.

Only one of my friends - as in, someone I'd meet for a pint - works in my
field. Don't sweat that.

But I've got plenty of other developers I keep in touch with to varying
degrees.

> Any advice?

Make a list of every person you've worked with in the past, or work with right
now. Ask yourself one simple question: if you were sitting in your office and
your manager walked in and says "Hey normloman, I just got foobar's resume,
and you used to work with them! Are they any good?"

If your answer wouldn't be immediately "hell yeah!", cross their name off the
list. Don't hedge, don't equivocate.

Now you've got a list of people that you trust, and if you're a decent worker,
odds are most of them feel the same way about you.

The next time you're looking to switch jobs, pull out that list. Send each one
of them a quick email/Linkedin/Facebook message/text/whatever that just says
"hey, I'm looking to make a change, do you know anyone that's hiring?"

That's pretty much it. And be available for anyone that asks you the same
question, because you gotta keep your karma in check ;-)

------
grandalf
The idea is that you area always better off if you have a personal connection
to a human being.

Most hiring managers would be thrilled to be introduced to someone talented
who comes recommended by someone they trust.

The point of having coffee is to have an informal chat which allows for lots
of information exchange without the formality of an interview (for either
party).

Also, you get a good sense of things like culture fit and interests, which can
often make a big impact on hiring decisions.

In addition, that you want to get to know the manager is a good sign that you
take your career seriously and want to work somewhere only if it's a very good
fit.

People who already have a great job don't make knee-jerk career decisions.
Doing a coffee signals that.

------
jlees
As everyone else has mentioned, ask your peers to introduce you directly to
the manager. A couple of things:

Include a brief but enticing paragraph on why you are awesome. It makes it a
lot easier for the "intro-er" to forward or reword it.

Be respectful of the other's time. Depending on the company and job, some
people really welcome a break for coffee for a potential hire or an
interesting person; others are swamped, and the triviality of a "coffee date"
will be easy to turn down. Try to gauge which this is.

Coffee meetings can be take, take, take. Try to give back. Maybe you have
something the other could learn?

------
j45
It's fine to ask for a coffee meeting if you want to learn more about an
industry, position, or the company.

Hiring, and interviewing is as much about mutual likeablitily as it is skills
and qualifications. You can always train for skill and knowledge more than you
can train for attitude.

Another thing to remember is as more medium and large companies start to use
applicant tracking systems, they generally filter out very good people who
don't happen to have the right keywords in their resume that they upload.

Standing out will become more important in those cases.

Ultimately, while what you know is important, who you know can help.

------
Dirlewanger
At least in the US, discussing coffee date etiquette usually carries the
context of meeting a potential partner. Not so much regarding a relationship
establishment for a job. Not to say that this would be frowned-upon, just
unusual.

I think that if the two parties are in very near vicinity of each other,
meeting over coffee could be a nice replacement for the typical first phone
interview (finding out the prospect's experience/aspirations/etc.). I also
feel like one would get more responses to these inquiries in Silicon Valley as
opposed to, say, the Northeast.

------
kaitai
There is the concept of an informational interview -- meeting over coffee to
ask about a person's job/industry/company -- but that is distinct from meeting
a hiring manager. It may be as effective in the job hunt, although it is not
as direct. Consider it, though, as it may be more informative to talk to
someone who does a job you'd like to do at a company you're interested in. If
that person then recommends you to the hiring manager, you're in a nice
position.

------
pulkitpulkit
Also having some pretext for the date helps I think; asking for advice on how
to get a job for the role you're interested, better understanding the company
culture and working practices or advice for some other particular situation
could all be good reasons to meet. Setting out the reason for the date (in
your email response to the email introduction) will make it more likely that
your request will be taken up.

------
eli
I'd personally prefer a nice personal sounding email than a cold call from
someone I don't know, but it's not that big a deal. I've gotten "out of the
blue" requests like this before and I usually say yes. If the request came via
an employee, I'd _definitely_ say yes.

------
sjs382
I agree that it would be weird to call the hiring manager "out of the blue"—I
would ask for an introduction, rather than a phone number. If your friend is a
bit introverted, have them introduce you via email, then respond with a (very
short) bit about who you are and what your motivation is.

------
sbensu
I'm also based in Sweden. I would recommend you attend to any meetup.com you
are interested in. The organizers are usually scouting. If you talk to people
and discuss the presentation (many don't) you'll get fika invites instead of
asking for them!

~~~
cpach
Sounds very good. I’ve been impressed by how many interesting and IT-related
Meetup events there are in Stockholm.

~~~
sbensu
If you are interested in Ops you should consider the Docker meetups. I hear
they are very good.

~~~
cpach
Cool! I should try to make it there some day. Feel free to ping me if you find
any other interesting meetups :) (See my profile for contact info.)

------
Someone1234
> Still, I must admit it would feel a bit weird to ask my peers for their
> manager’s number and then ask the manager if they want to meet, just ”out of
> the blue”.

That would be strange. Wouldn't you get your friend, the intermediary, to set
up the "date?"

------
ig1
The normal way to do it is just to drop an email to a relevant person, set a
context and ask if they'd be willing to meet for coffee.

Although if you already know someone in common you could do it more casually
(i.e. join them for after work drinks).

------
cpach
Sooo much good advice here! Thanks to everyone who has responded. This is very
useful for me and hopefully for other readers as well.

------
himanshuy
Don't turn HN into Reddit.

