
Reasons Not to Use Apple (2018) - donttrack
https://stallman.org/apple.html
======
mark_l_watson
+1 Richard

Sure, he is cherry picking examples, but there are a lot of examples to choose
from.

I used mostly Linux at home for about 15 years, then switched to a decade of
MacOS. My new laptop is a Linux laptop and I think I will go back to Linux as
my main driver.

I am really conflicted about cellphones. I was unhappy with the crap ware
preloaded on my Verizon Android phones. I am happier with a Verizon iPhone, as
far as not having a lot of junk preinstalled. I am reading Cal Newport’s new
book Digital Minimalism that is making me realize that I need to be more
focused in how I spend any screen time.

I really like the iWatch and if/when it becomes possible to use one
independently of an iPhone (now my iWatch with a data plan needs the phone for
app installation and configuration) I would like to either ditch the phone or
mostly keep it turned off.

Still, I differ from Richards opinions in that I think that Apple and Google
do have some good privacy policies in place. I feel fairly OK using a personal
G Suite account and Apple has a fairly good track record for privacy.

~~~
snazz
If your Android phone is compatible[0], you might enjoy the result from
installing LineageOS on it. If you wish, you can continue to use the Google
Play Services package (which is where Google does all the tracking, and is
also the only way to get the Play Store). I chose not to and use F-Droid and
directly downloaded APKs, which saves me from running any proprietary code
that I haven’t vetted carefully.

It also solves the planned obsolescence issue, because my Galaxy S4 is
screaming-fast on a version of Android from three years after its last
manufacturer update.

[0]:
[https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/](https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/)

~~~
mark_l_watson
Thanks for that comment. I still have a Galaxy 4 and last week I pulled it out
of the drawer and charged it. I looked at LieageOS but was concerned about the
time spent installing it. Also, my Galaxy 4 no longer has a SIM card; do you
know what the LineageOS experience would be like WiFi only?

~~~
snazz
It works fine without cellular. In the hands of someone who can install Linux,
it shouldn’t take more than an hour (if you have a not-dialup internet
connection).

First, apt install adb heimdall-flash. These are the basic tools for
interacting with Samsung phones and Android devices in general from a Linux
machine.

From there, follow the instructions I linked below, which basically amounts to
getting root and unlocking the boot loader using Heimdall, then flashing TWRP,
which is a recovery program, then flashing LineageOS from within TWRP. It’s
not hard, but be sure to follow the right set of instructions, because the
files for the Verizon, AT&T, and Sprint phones are not compatible.

Assuming you have the Verizon model:
[https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/jfltevzw/install](https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/jfltevzw/install)

~~~
mark_l_watson
Thank you for these instructions! I am going to try later this afternoon after
some family stuff.

------
saagarjha
The problem I have with Stallman is that he’s usually right, but he is
remarkably horrible at coming across as someone with valid opinions. It is
disingenuous to come to the table with clearly cherry-picked evidence, and
calling companies and their products with stupid names is just childish. There
are a lot of problems with companies, and Stallman is very good at recognizing
them, but he’s just pretty bad at getting people to not consider him as
somewhat crazy :/

~~~
elagost
Stallman is very much on one of the far ends of the technological spectrum,
with, say, normal people with Android phones and Gmail and a Windows laptop on
the other.

I think most people, given enough explanation, would recognize that Stallman
and the FSF are 100% correct in their extremism and zealotry - but most aren't
able to live without the convenience they've come to know and love.

It's important to have him on his end, so that him and those like him can
balance out the other end, and that most people can reasonably fall more
towards the middle. Can't have shadows without bright light.

~~~
saagarjha
> I think most people, given enough explanation, would recognize that Stallman
> and the FSF are 100% correct in their extremism and zealotry - but most
> aren't able to live without the convenience they've come to know and love.

Oh, yes, I'm very much of the opinion that they are right; the only reason I'm
not joining them is because my Mac works well ;) I have nothing wrong with
their "extremism"–the issue I have is that their attacks come across as
childish, especially when they give things stupid names, and often they are
pieced together by people who aren't actually experts in what they're
complaining about and so they end up with evidence like "$NEWS_WEBSITE says
this is bad", when the actual issue is something much more fundamental.

------
JdeBP
> _If you carry a cell phone, it tells Big Brother where you are._

It's worth remembering that if one carries a mobile telephone, and it is not
fully powered off, _TPC always_ knows where you are, and the powers that be do
not need to go to _Apple_ for that information. A mobile telephone broadcasts
to let the world know where it is, and the mobile telephony system only works
in the first place if the system knows how to route incoming calls and SMS
messages to a person's telephone.

* [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19215636](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19215636)

~~~
pbalau
> the mobile telephony system only works in the first place if the system
> knows how to route incoming calls and SMS messages to a person's telephone

Like every other messaging system. Because you know, in order to send a
message you need to know where...

~~~
jstanley
Not quite. Ricochet IM[0] is a messaging system based around Tor hidden
services. The entire purpose of Tor is the ability to route messages to people
without finding out where they are.

[0] [https://ricochet.im/](https://ricochet.im/)

~~~
ex3ndr
Tor is power hungry and can’t scale for billions of users.

------
flyinglizard
1\. Apple takes privacy and data safety seriously. It invests a significant
amount of engineering effort into keeping user data safe. It doesn't comply
with government requests unless forced, after deploying its vast legal means
to hold them back.

2\. Other consumer electronics devices aren't built in factories that are any
different or better than those of Foxconn. While it doesn't absolve Apple from
taking some responsibility, RMS should have called for avoiding mobile devices
altogether if he's so worried about personnel abuse.

3\. Fortunately or not, digital platforms aren't exempt from real world rules
and laws. If something is prohibited in some territory, we can't seriously
expect foreign companies who do business there to ignore local laws and
regulations. Would you be so lenient towards a Chinese company which operates
in USA disregarding all intellectual property laws? About a Japanese media
company operating in Europe that markets material that would constitute
underaged pornography?

4\. We need to respect sovereignty and local customs. If there's a lesson to
be learnt from the Arab Spring uprisings and their incredibly bloody outcomes
is that freedom of information requires a certain societal foundation, and
can't be thought of as an absolute universal value. Even the Western world is
in a disarray following the information propagation offered by online
platforms; to expect a society with much weaker civil institution and
foundations to face the same challenges is wrong. Therefore, when Apple is
asked to block content in China by the local authorities and complies, it's
not any more than respecting the rule of the land.

The alternative to that is that the Chinese would create their own Apple
(which they of course do), and that's worse for everyone at the end. It leads
to a bisected global economy in the style of the Iron Curtain. I'd much rather
have Apple operating in China and constantly pushing against government
regulation than see the Chinese setting up their own Apple run by government
cronies which would pipe user data right into the agencies of Beijing.

5\. That aside, some of Apple's behavior (as illustrated by Spotify lately) is
downright predatory, intended to lock Apple users to inferior alternatives. I
don't like that one bit. On the balance though, I support Apple's discretion
with my dollars, because I feel they are selling to me rather than selling me,
and because their devices are great.

~~~
kilburn
1\. It does, but do you know what's easier? Not collecting that data
unnecessarily in the first place.

2\. He does call against mobile devices altogether (see the Cellular Phones
section [1]).

3\. A company can choose where to conduct business. RMS's opinion is that
companies should not conduct business where the laws impose said company to
routinely act in ways that are harmful to society.

4\. "I know better than them (so I choose what to censor)" and "I do it
because otherwise someone else will" are poor defenses from a moral
standpoint. RMS is all about morality, not pragmatism. His stance is that bit
by bit, slight compromises become landslides.

5\. You are free to do as you please, just like RMS is free to disapprove of
your support to apple ;)

[1] [https://stallman.org/rms-lifestyle.html](https://stallman.org/rms-
lifestyle.html)

~~~
valuearb
What evidence is there that Apple collects data unnecessarily?

~~~
kilburn
I didn't think this was a controversial assertion. Most big techs have been
collecting plenty of information that is non-essential for their functions.

For instance, you must have an apple account (that includes your personal
details) just to get MacOS security updates. Why is that necessary if you
don't intend to buy any software from the store?

~~~
Otek
It's necessary so if anyone ever feel like buying something from the store
they don't need to register. It reduces the chance that they will 'bounce' and
not buy. It's that simple.

~~~
kilburn
I know that is the reason. I strongly disagree in that qualifying as a
__necessary __thing to do.

If that was accepted as __necessary __data collection, GDPR wouldn 't have
made any fuss whatsoever: big techs would keep collecting all the data they
wanted because "it is necessary to reduce the chance that we won't earn
buckets of money".

------
talkingtab
The #1 reason not to use Apple is their arrogance toward their users. I don't
want them to lie to me about my battery, nor make me choose their music over
spotify and engage in other customer-hostile policies to make money.

If it were only that simple, sigh. Google is much worse. Apple at least lip
sync's privacy, I suspect when it is to their advantage.

I believe Apple just has no clue as to how to create products any more. How
much money are they sitting on and and this is the best they can do?

~~~
kbf
>I don't want them to lie to me about my battery

You say that, but you most likely do. Even if you absolutely don’t, the vast
majority of users still do, even if they don’t know it.

The whole point of software is to at least partly obfuscate what the hardware
does, to the benefit of users. Making things easier to use and understand and
hiding unnecessary complications is not arrogance towards users, it’s acting
in their interest.

~~~
talkingtab
I meant the thing about throttling the performance because the battery was
old.

~~~
mamon
Throthled performance might midly annoy some of the users, some of the time.
Battery lasting less than 8 hours would enrage everyone very quickly.

------
leepowers
Found at least one error on the list. This claim:

> Apple's mail service silently censors the mail people send.

Is based on this article:

[https://www.cultofmac.com/103703/apple-may-be-invisibly-
filt...](https://www.cultofmac.com/103703/apple-may-be-invisibly-filtering-
your-outgoing-mobileme-email-exclusive/103703/)

Where one user was unable to send one email via the MobileMe web interface
because of an outgoing spam filter. The Mail app worked btw, and was not
"censored".

From this Stallman extrapolates censorship of all users who use Apple email.

Give me a break.

------
zenexer
Let’s not water down the major issues with a long list of grievances. Apple’s
anticompetitive practices are hugely problematic, and it’s the one area in
which Apple refuses to budge. That’s where we need to focus, starting with the
App Store.

------
why_only_15
Apple doesn't really spy on users imo. Internally, the privacy team is quite
powerful and forces lots of safeguards about how exactly data can be used.

~~~
tokyodude
Same with Google. Google has privacy teams as well which are

> quite powerful and forces lots of safeguards about how exactly data can be
> used.

Apple recommends apps based on other apps I've downloaded. So does Google.
Apple recommends music based on other music I've played. So does Google. Apple
recommends books and movies as well based on similar data. So does Google.
Apple keeps track of every placed your Apple devices have been. So does
Google. Apple doesn't share this data. Neither does Google.

~~~
jeromegv
You seem to be simplifying things a bit too much. Apple doesn’t keep track of
where your device has been. Your iPhone knows but it’s not being sent to
Apple. Google has been shown to know this data even when you disable as many
location services as you can.

~~~
tokyodude
Apple knows which is how they can display every devices location on icloud.com
including "last known location" which means the location was previously sent
to Apple.

~~~
xenadu02
That requires you to opt-in to the “Find My iPhone” or “Find My Friends”
feature which are explicitly designed to locate the phone.

If you don’t enable those things (which are not automatically enabled) then
Apple does not know the location of your phone.

------
newscracker
It's highly admirable to see a person who's so strong on his convictions and
philosophy. And the entire world is better for it even if most people think
he's too radical. Some of the terms he uses (as alternative to the real names)
may sound silly, but his heart is in the right place.

The problem that I see is (inputs welcome from others on this) there are no
mass produced goods (hardware and software) that are also easy to use and
secure and private that conform to his requirements (leave alone cheap or
being friendly to the environment, to workers, against censorship, and many
other factors). It would take quite a bit of effort (to set things up) even
for technical people to live as he does.

------
coldtea
I could not care less with Apple abiding by national laws of each country (to
provide or not provide some app). Wanna do business somewhere, play by their
laws, not impose your clout (which for some companies is bigger than some
states, hence the "Banana Republic" notion) to have the laws of your
preference enforced. (Most Americans are OK with it, because it's usually
their companies doing the enforcing. But consider the opposite, you being
forced to accept the terms of some other country).

But I dislike their enforced prudery. Unless something is considered illegal
(e.g. CP), it should be up to the users to decide. At worse, implement age
restrictions when shopping.

------
kpU8efre7r
I don't think I'd be where I am today if I lived how Stallman lived. He is
once again technically correct but I also think he has immense privilege
others do not have.

It's almost like he can't change his principles either, because at this point
his livelihood depends on it.

------
dana321
Recent examples of why not to use apple:

1\. Their new keyboards are terrible, and are buggy. 2\. Lack of headphone
jack on phones. 3\. Vast price increases for relatively little new features.
4\. Constant upgrading of the OS which breaks half of the software you use.

~~~
hellofunk
And a few good reasons to choose Apple:

My new iPhone XR needs to be charged only once or twice per week.

For development, I get a certified UNIX machine with an excellent user
interface, best of both worlds for the vast majority of tasks we need using
computers.

Apple makes money off me because I buy their products. I am myself not the
product, their hardware is. This has so many natural side effects that benefit
users, that it scares me to go in the direction of android.

The iPad is truly a revolutionary best in class device, I’ve not seen anything
else that comes anywhere close to its quality for what it does.

~~~
wayneftw
> My new iPhone XR needs to be charged only once or twice per week.

It's not the only phone that does that and it's not a new feature. Even with
older phones, you can simply get a battery case.

> with an excellent user interface

The user interface is terrible and all the core features are extremely limited
with no extensibility whatsoever. Just about every other desktop OS has a
better user interface.

> Apple makes money off me because I buy their products. I am myself not the
> product, their hardware is.

Actually, their iProducts are not even yours after you buy them. If you want
to build an app for your own device you have to give Apple $100 every year
just to be able to install it. So that puts them into a malignant category of
their own.

> The iPad is truly a revolutionary best in class device...

...but only if you think iOS is any good or you don't value your own freedom.

~~~
hellofunk
> Actually, their iProducts are not even yours after you buy them. If you want
> to build an app for your own device you have to give Apple $100 every year
> just to be able to install it. So that puts them into a malignant category
> of their own.

FYI this has not been true for years.

~~~
lern_too_spel
It is true for all practical purposes. Nobody is going to resign and reinstall
their apps weekly.

------
supernova87a
You can call out a multitude of things to be mad at Apple for. The question
is, what alternatives currently available would do any better on the whole,
for what you need?

You demand a phone that has all these services and qualities to it. Or
websites or apps that you like. What system have you come up with that
provides a viable alternative to what exists? All these social media companies
thought they could create a self-policing, open, free place for discussion.
Surprise, turns out every country/government wants to put restrictions on
these capabilities, in a different flavor. Or people want to be paid for
things, while others want them for free.

Almost every one of the things on his list is a result of people, users like
you and me, doing things that weren't intended to be done. And they had to
come up with rules to take care of. Or are what's needed to reach this many
people.

Not saying there aren't things on there that couldn't be changed. (and by the
way, some of his examples are 10 years irrelevant)

But you're mad at Apple because it reaches more people, and does so while
ignoring these (let's face it, minor) concerns that most people don't care --
at all -- about. Ask any of your friends to identify / name even 2 of these
issues?

So go invent something different. See how long it is before you come under
similar constraints and start having to make rules that someone, somewhere
disagrees with.

The actors in a system are servants of the things we want (or can't resist
wanting) them to do.

~~~
fghtr
> The question is, what alternatives currently available would do any better
> on the whole, for what you need?

[https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/](https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/)

(only for preorder, but the devkit already exists and looks fine)

------
azangru
Most of the reasons in that list are ideological, not technical. I mean, I
like listening to RMS, but prefer my choice of technology to be governed by
technical reasons, not by what a company does in China or in Russia.
Incidentally, given a choice between an Apple machine and a well-functioning
GNU/Linux machine I would pick the latter.

~~~
johnchristopher
Technology carry its own intrinsic political and ethical weight.

Choosing a tech over another tech for technical reasons and ignoring other
aspects is a political choice.

~~~
xondono
I’m seriously kind of tired of this argument.

We’ve gone from “not choosing is a choice” to “every choice is political”.

I’m sorry but the latter doesn’t immediatly follow from the first.

You can and are totally free to not use a technology or buy from a particular
company for political reasons, but that does not mean that others are making a
political choice when doing so.

Similarly you should argue that eating meat is a religious choice, since some
religions prohibit meat consumption.

I find this kind of reasoning bogus at best.

~~~
johnchristopher
I understand you don't like it but every choice, every act has a political
significance. I believe it doesn't follow that you actively support or promote
whatever comes with a choice but the fact remains that choosing a tech only on
tech merits or choosing a tech despite who you support by buying it is still a
political choice.

That's why I use Firefox and not google chrome even though at some points one
is better than the other.

> We’ve gone from “not choosing is a choice” to “every choice is political”.

> I’m sorry but the latter doesn’t immediatly follow from the first.

Nobody said or implied that.

> Similarly you should argue that eating meat is a religious choice, since
> some religions prohibit meat consumption.

Now that's a bogus reasoning and I don't see why you twist the analogy like
that since it loses relevance.

~~~
azangru
> Now that's a bogus reasoning and I don't see why you twist the analogy like
> that since it loses relevance.

I am not sure this reasoning is bogus. Let me try to pick up on the analogy
and develop it further:

Situation 1: I (hypothetically) am shopping for a laptop. I am used to Unix,
dislike Windows, and couldn't get desktop Linux work for me. I am impressed by
battery life of the latest Macbook Pro, as well as by its glorious screen,
decent sound, and responsive touchpad. After certain deliberation I decide to
buy a Macbook Pro. Apple’s corporate track record doesn't even enter into the
calculation. And yet, I am told that my choice is political.

Situation 2: You (hypothetically) are about to order a burger. You are hungry
and like burgers, and the animal suffering involved in the production of that
burger does not even cross your mind. Yet you are told that you have made a
moral choice. (Alternatively, you are told that you’ve made a religious
choice, because in Jainism meat is not allowed; and obviously you couldn’t
care less about Jainism.)

What I, as the previous commentator, find so objectionable is that it
shouldn't be said of you that you are making a political choice if you are not
involved in an act that you recognize as political. I can’t imagine that it is
reasonable to expect of everyone to be constantly engaged in political
activity, or to put political considerations before any other. I think it’s
quite possible to be vaguely supportive of democracy, freedom, workers’ rights
or the rule of law (and thus to be politically on one side of the spectrum),
and at the same time not care that a corporation complied with undemocratic
demands of an authoritarian regime or used legal loopholes to avoid taxes (and
thus is on another side of the political spectrum).

------
rbrbr
I would like to see the same details about google / android and microsoft /
windows from the author of this comprehensive list. And his conclusion what to
use as an OS considering all.

~~~
unstatusthequo
He has more "what's bad about" various companies (and pay toilets). ;)

~~~
JdeBP
Indeed, there's a whole list of them right at the start of the headlined
article.

------
Topolomancer
This is only one item of a larger list. As someone whose university buys Apple
products (and uses quite some services on the Stallman's list): does HN have
any advice for advocating for making the switch?

Let's take Slack as an example: what strategies are there to convince people
to make the switch to an alternative product? From the perspective of users
(who may not always care about the things RMS cares about), a switch just
involves a lot of time and effort.

Any suggestions or hints how to approach this?

~~~
fghtr
> does HN have any advice for advocating for making the switch?

Maybe not precisely that, but
[https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/university.html](https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/university.html)

------
conscells
I was going through RMS' site and found the daily notes section. Here[1], on
the 14th March entry (Kamala Harris staffing), he links to an article from the
onion. Is it intentional? Does he not know onion is a satirical publication?

[1] [https://www.stallman.org/archives/2019-jan-
apr.html#14_March...](https://www.stallman.org/archives/2019-jan-
apr.html#14_March_2019_\(Kamala_Harris_staffing\))

------
Viral_Execution
So google then? Haha well let us not forget Apple denied the FBI a backdoor
and to unlock an iPhone. Hmm wonder how that would have turned out if it was
any other company. Sorry but that spoke massive volumes to me. And when those
FBI text leaks came out they were going to harass Tim Apple lmao. But I see a
lot of errors & more personal opinions that lacks evidence but ok. But by all
mean please if you have more to show please do we all need to know. This Has
nothing to do with fanboy either I use both and the comparisons is night &
day. Also I'm only interested in censorship in places it shouldn't be. In
China that's how it is. Although we disagree that's there way of life and it's
just the same as if you were to fly into there country and stay for a few days
you'd obey there laws right? Or go in with your country's laws? Pointless to
add that imo. So if that is a problem for you. I suggest taking it up with
China the ones who call the shots not Apple. Its annoying for that to pushed
on someone or something that absolutely has no power over a country. Dumb,Just
sayin. I'd prefer that business not to be conducted there. But kinda to late
for that when everything says made in China.

How bout that prism 5 privacy phone? Hope it's successful and provides the
needs which we all grown accustomed to with all these apps. Over all even tho
I dislike there practices and absurd prices. And just putting out there I know
my way around the phone then the average because both views are different, I'd
rather stick with Apple a hardware company than a software company like google
2 different agendas. And to just be flat out real & honest where can you go?
Everything is doing F*ckery everyone decided to wait to damn long to say
anything when I know majority of us here knew about it all way back but the
sheep heard didn't budge till recently to damn late they grew to powerful and
google no longer needs you to have there device or any on you to track you.
Plus everyone just welcomes all there products into there home already. If
they are gonna farm my data I at least expect it to be handled like it's gold.
And they could offer a paid version that we can choose to use that will keep
our data off limits since we are paying for it. They still get there money. I
personally think if we are paying outta pocket our data is off limits. The isp
sells our data so why do we still pay for cable? Sometimes I think a solar
flare would be nice and reset everything but I doubt people will learn.

------
sexyflanders
I’d be interested to hear valid alternatives or solutions to the listed
problems. For the most part they aren’t unique to Apple.

------
jijojv
Well Stallman also hates the internet:

4th line on that page is

What's bad about: Airbnb | Amazon | Amtrak | Ancestry | Apple | Discord |
Ebooks | Eventbrite | Evernote | Facebook | Google | Intel | LinkedIn | Lyft |
Meetup | Microsoft | Netflix | Patreon | Pay Toilets | Skype | Slack | Spotify
| Twitter | Uber | Wendy's |

~~~
Nicksil
Airbnb, Amazon, Amtrak, Ancestry, Apple, Discord, Ebooks, Eventbrite,
Evernote, Facebook, Google, Intel, LinkedIn, Lyft, Meetup, Microsoft, Netflix,
Patreon, Pay Toilets, Skype, Slack, Spotify, Twitter, Uber, Wendy's

...is not the Internet

------
chdaniel
Surprised Spotify's antitrust claims are not mentioned there

Edit: All right so this website is meant to make a library of opposition
against big corporations. I understand now

~~~
weavie
Not necessarily just big corporations.

[https://stallman.org/pay-toilets.html](https://stallman.org/pay-toilets.html)

~~~
badpun
Regarding his argument against paid toilets: can’t this be said about any
other basic neccesity? I.e. don’t pay for food, because some people can’t
afford it - so food should be free.

~~~
gowld
What's interesting about stallman is that he is zealous about his philosophy,
but like all philosophies, his philosophy is inconsistent when you take it to
its logical extremes. (See the paradox of closed source microwaves).
Stallman's philosophy is a veneer over utilitarianism and assumption that the
computer is a unique construct in society -- software should be libre because
libre software provides the most value to the most people due to the 0
marginal cost of software, even if it's less profitable to the creators, and
even this claim is not quite true due to the security benefits of closed
platforms and the virtuous cycle of profit motive motivating people to work
harder to produce more. It makes sense when you consider that Stallman formed
his views when he was working at MIT, with his material support from donations
from people who made their money not from free software, or who shared such
donations with him. The economics of his philosophy are tainted by that
foundational flaw.

~~~
tokyodude
I know of no security benefits to closed platforms. I know many people believe
one platform that happens to be closed, iOS, is more secure than some other
platforms but I've seen no evidence that it's more secure because it's closed.
In fact, the platform that's generally considered the least secure, Windows,
is also closed.

~~~
mch82
There was an entire controversy about how hard Apple made it for law
enforcement to access iPhones, which indicates security benefits.

Apple’s business model also aligns with user privacy (so far).

It’s also worth considering Apple’s CEO personally values privacy because he
had to keep his sexuality a secret his entire life until he reached such a
prominent position he felt safe to speak out.

I agree that the strongest evidence is the source code, compiler code, and
electronics schematics. However, there are other forms of evidence.

~~~
jstanley
> There was an entire controversy about how hard Apple made it for law
> enforcement to access iPhones, which indicates security benefits.

It indicates that Apple software is secure, it doesn't indicate that it is
secure _because_ it is closed-source. It might be even more secure if it were
open source, because then many more people would be looking for
vulnerabilities in it.

~~~
mch82
Good catch. I responded to “no evidence Apple is more secure” and missed the
“because it is closed” context.

I think Apple’s products would be more secure if they were more open. I
appreciate that the core is open (Darwin, WebKit, Swift, LLVM).

------
Geee
I think Apple takes privacy more seriously than anyone. They don't need to spy
on people to make money, unlike many tech companies.

Content control is different from political censorship. Every company has the
right to policy their content and choose their customers. It sucks, but it
isn't evil.

Those are pretty old arguments, because Apple does allow Bitcoin related apps
now, and has been for many years.

------
pyman
Apple treats developers with respect. And respect is everything for a
developer.

~~~
rochak
Just yesterday, I decided to contribute to an FOSS project that required the
use of Apple Music API. Sadly, Apple requires an yearly $100 to create an
Apple Developer account. Privacy is all fine, but this is just pure greed.

~~~
pyman
It's a closed platform. There's nothing wrong with closed platforms, and
nothing greedy with comercial products or money making businesses. Unless you
live in a communist country, of course.

------
anta40
As a mobile app developer, does the article mean I have to ditch Macs and
iPhones?

Hmmm...

------
Kye
The last update to Telegram on iOS was two weeks ago. Is the rest of it worth
reading if point #1 is wrong?

edit: This last page update was 2018 according to the copyright. The OP didn't
put (2018) in the title.

~~~
snazz
The list is updated continuously. The last element in the censorship section
is from December of last year, which is pretty recent.

------
datumy
+1 The truth hurts, but helps.

------
jpdus
Wow - regardless of whether one agrees with RMS, alone the fact that this
submission has been heavily flagged already (and will thus drop from the
frontpage soon) tells you a lot about the power of Apple and their fans here.

HN urgently needs to address the flagging problems, this has been the case for
many important but controversial topics recently and leads to a degraded
quality of frontpage submissions in my view.

~~~
hellofunk
I have not flagged this article, partly because I’m curious to see the debate
here. But I’m sure those who have flagged it did so because this article is
not objective, this is a very extremist position with a lot of cherry picked
arguments that are obviously from a personal bias he has against Apple.

Many of the points he is specifically isolating for Apple are quite true of
most of the big tech firms.

~~~
kilburn
RMS _is_ an extremist, openly and unashamedly. He doesn't try to hide it, he
tries to argue that his extremist position is the morally correct and long-
term best for society though.

> from a personal bias he has against Apple. Many of the points he is
> specifically isolating for Apple are quite true of most of the big tech
> firms.

He bashes _all_ big techs for most of those points too. See the links at the
top where he complains about Airbnb, Amazon, Amtrak, Ancestry, Apple, Discord,
Ebooks, Eventbrite, Evernote, Facebook, Google, Intel, LinkedIn, Lyft, Meetup,
Microsoft, Netflix, Patreon, Pay Toilets, Skype, Slack, Spotify, Twitter, Uber
and Wendy's.

If there are missing companies there it is probably because he didn't have the
time, not because he does't want to complain about _something_ regarding that
specific company ;)

~~~
ken
So by this standard, is there a computer that I should use, or is all
computing in 2019 unethical?

I see he's using a >10yr old Intel CPU, presumably to avoid the Management
Engine, so presumably he thinks it's OK to pay money to these companies in
certain circumstances?

~~~
kilburn
By RMS's standard, it seems that it is ok to reuse old systems (irrespective
of which company built them originally) provided you can use them without
binary blobs (irreplaceable built-in no-source firmware is fine though).
Quoting his "how I do computing page" [1]:

> I use a Thinkpad T400s computer, which has a free initialization program
> (libreboot) and a free operating system (Trisquel GNU/Linux). It was not
> sold that way by Lenovo, however; small businesses buy them used,
> recondition them, and install the free software. This is one of the
> computers endorsed by the FSF.

Of course I'm pretty sure he would also approve buying and using any open
hardware product [2] (provided it can run using only free software). There are
some initiatives popping up in this space, such as:

\- The siFive HiFive's [3] (Risc-V based), that can get you a fully open, slow
system for $3k (1k for the base board + 2k for the PCIe-and-others expansion
board).

\- The Talos™ (Power9-based) systems [4], that give you 2019-grade performance
at ~2-3x the usual price.

All in all, not a pleasant stance to make, but definitely doable for some
folks.

[1] [https://stallman.org/stallman-
computing.html](https://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html) [2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-
source_computing_hardware...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-
source_computing_hardware#Fully_open-source_hardware) [3]
[https://www.sifive.com/boards](https://www.sifive.com/boards) [4]
[https://www.raptorcs.com/content/base/products.html](https://www.raptorcs.com/content/base/products.html)

~~~
derekp7
This is the thing that gets me, is that if a piece of hardware has firmware
that you can't replace then it is OK to use. But if they add the functionality
to replace the firmware, then it all of a sudden is not OK to use that
hardware. Or, is it the case that if the firmware is pre-loaded, but
replaceable, instead of needing to download the firmware to the board every
time you boot, then that would still be acceptable. Not sure where he stands
on that last point.

~~~
craigsmansion
It's a point that causes a lot of confusion.

As soon as a piece of software is replaceable, the one who provides you with
the software can use its distribution to make you promise to ignore the four
software freedoms.

If a piece of software is not replaceable, that point is moot, since the one
who provided you with the software has no sway over you regardless. They have
no control over you or the device.

~~~
Yetanfou
Better rephrase that to indicate that they have no more control over you or
the device than the non-replaceable firmware allows, this is definitely not
the same as "no control". Non-replaceable firmware can ping home, it can be
used to monitor users, it can download arbitrary code and run it, it can
listen for some trigger to start messing with your data or downright destroy
said data, it can start randomly rebooting systems or non-randomly restart all
affected systems at a specific time - which may cause brown- or blackouts
depending on the power draw and -supply, etcetera.

------
robertAngst
I consider it responsible Capitalism to not buy products from Apple, AT&T, BP,
etc...

Apple has not been pro consumer or pro developer in my lifetime. They do
advertise a lot.

~~~
hellofunk
It’s unclear what you mean by this, or what you are using as the criteria for
being a pro consumer.

Their stance on user privacy, especially with iPhone in comparison to android,
is certainly a good example of very pro consumer attitudes.

~~~
robertAngst
>It’s unclear what you mean by this,

(did you read the article?)

Proprietary connectors, overpriced hardware, high cost barrier to entry,
closed ecosystem.

~~~
valuearb
I much prefer lightning to USB, it’s cheap and easy to become a Mac or iOS
developer, and also greatly prefer the security of a closed ecosystem.

And when you use your computer 2,000 hours a year the extra cost of Macs per
hour of work is trivial and the benefits are great.

~~~
robertAngst
>I much prefer lightning to USB

Cool anecodete

>it’s cheap and easy to become a Mac or iOS developer,

Its the most expensive system to develop for. So you literally lied.

------
born2discover
The case is strong with this one!

------
dwighttk
A lot of these really only make sense if you have bought into the libre
software ideology.

------
lucidguppy
I tried using linux on the desktop but plugging in monitors to my laptop just
failed.

~~~
justtopost
Odd, works just fine for me. What laptop and distro?

------
raverbashing
Sorry, did Stallman started using a live web browser already?

His positions are extremist and I don't know what's gained by divulging them

~~~
johnisgood
Huh? I do not believe he is incorrect about this, but you do, so what is he
incorrect about exactly?

~~~
hellofunk
A lot of the arguments in this list are very one-sided, and seem to ignore
things Apple has done that are directly contrary to the point he’s trying to
make.

------
hellofunk
> Apple practices tax avoidance using loopholes and lobbying.

He’s cherry picking things here that really don’t have anything to do
specifically with Apple. Amazon paid zero taxes last year and they had more
income than nearly any company in the world. Google is also quite famous for
the loopholes it finds. I’m not sure it’s fair to single out Apple
specifically for this.

~~~
viraptor
This is called whataboutism. This article is not about Amazon or Google. He
likely has a similar opinion about those companies. But this is about Apple
and the tax avoidance point is valid. (At least according to
[https://itep.org/fact-sheet-apple-and-tax-avoidance/](https://itep.org/fact-
sheet-apple-and-tax-avoidance/) )

~~~
twmiller
I see a lot of people defending the page this way, but to me the problem is
that a webpage about ‘what’s wrong with Apple’ implies a list of issues
specific to Apple. Most of the issues brought up here belong on a ‘what’s
wrong with modern tech companies’ page, since they are issues found throughout
the industry.

------
mch82
I disagree with the bullets about banning/censoring apps.

There are ways to install and run software on iOS without using the AppStore.
If developers share source code, people are free to compile and install it
using Xcode. It’s also possible to run Python programs using Pythonista.
Finally, programs can be run as JavaScript in Safari.

Apple definitely controls the AppStore. That makes it less convenient to
install programs than on GNU/Linux, but the freedom is still there. And maybe
the added steps mean the people who choose to run code via Xcode, Pythonista,
or JavaScript are more likely to understand the risks of running that code.

Edit: Posted incomplete comment on the first try. Also wanted to add that I
look up to Stallman as a role model and advocate for open source &
contributing back to open source.

~~~
simion314
Are you aware of the limitations of the methods you describe? If yes it is
very dishonest to not mention them, if not you should get the details
right(find out how can you share an iOS native app you made with your friends)

~~~
mch82
Does Apple prohibit sending them the source code so that they can compile and
load it through Xcode?

I realize that requires a MacOS computer, which costs money, but the “free” in
free software principles is about the freedom to share the code, not the price
of the code. Free software is allowed to be sold.

Increasingly, it is also possible to run Swift code on Linux without Xcode or
MacOS (recognizing the GUI would need to be rewritten).

~~~
simion314
Are you serious? Does Sony prevent me emailing my friends my game source code?
They "JUST" need developer system with expensive proprietary software and
developer accounts, certificates and agree to a few EULAs and ToSs but I am
not prevented to send them source code.

~~~
valuearb
You don’t need to do that on iOS. Xcode is free with $99/year dev account, you
can TestFlight builds to all of your friends, up to 10,000 of them.

~~~
simion314
Is there a 7 or 30 days limit? I found something about this but I am not sure
if I am looking in the right places. So if you know this from your experience
can you list all the downsides(don't omit anything that won't affect an app
that I would send to someone on Windows,Mac, Android or Linux) ?

------
wayneftw
This list sounds like it was written by someone who wants to use Apple but
needs some justifications not to. I only ever needed one reason to not use
Apple products unless I was forced to: They're mostly not good products. The
parts that are good are completely obstructed by the bad parts.

For instance, macOS is a stable, supported Unix on slick hardware. That's
great! But only at the cost of all the core desktop functionality being
complete fucking garbage. The global menu is colossally stupid and it sucks,
the Window management sucks, the Finder sucks and the Dock sucks. Everybody
knows this except for the people who have made their computing hardware and
software choices part of their identity.

That last one was also infamous internally for sucking at the time it came out
except in one respect: It marketed well. Oh and that slick hardware that
you're being forced to buy is probably outdated before it left the store.
Also, you were probably steered directly to the most expensive version of that
hardware due to the skimpy lineup that you have to choose from and the lack of
upgrade-ability.

Same thing with iOS - you get some great stuff like long battery life and
stability, but only at the cost of this little thing we call "freedom" to do
what the fuck I want without having to ask my Apple parent.

Seriously - Fuck Apple. They've always been a smug bunch of assholes. If you
have to use their products (since they have just enough market share to be
annoying) - just buy it used from a non-Apple source. Don't give these
assholes your money.

