
I'm an introverted hacker. I want to join a frat. - Introverty
[niceFirstPost]<p>Let's start here: I'm a college freshman, and introverted and sheltered as hell. I've always been a shy, timid, geeky hacker.<p>Introversion-wise, I can't handle extended amounts of time with people, or large crowds. Both drain me like no other. I've always been shy and mellow. Sheltered-wise, I never party or get drunk or any of that.<p>But now I'm in college and I want to change. I want to be social and party and so on.<p>[b]So I rushed a frat.[/b] And I got a bid. (Probably cause I look good more than anything else.) And tonight I went to the first meeting.<p>And here's the problem. Getting in was easy because it was just an alumni panel and an interview. [b] But I'm not sure how - or if - I can get through the pledge process.[/b] I'm just so far behind everyone else: I'm not good in crowds; don't know how to act at parties; don't know how to drink and drinking games; don't know how to dance; don't know.<p>[b] Here's my first question: [/b] Do you think I can improve and should try to complete the pledge process? (It's not a hardcore frat, so there's no hazing and such.) Or should I work on my social skills for a semester and pledge again?<p>[b] Next question: [/b] If you guys think I should go for it, how can I "catch up" socially? What do I need to learn and how? (Talking? Being in groups? Drinking/Games? Partying?)<p>Thanky.<p>[/niceFirstPost\
======
metamemetics
Quit and join campus activities that actually interest you. You will have a
much better college experience if you say, join the Campus Radio because you
like music and everyone else is there because they like music. In most greek
fraternities, there is usually zero shared interest why you're there. It's an
institution with no core purpose or function other than guaranteeing its own
survival by luring in more freshmen. At least the large monolithic
bureaucratic organizations in our society exist to fulfill some purpose,
however inefficiently.

In business, you choose your associates carefully and don't spend time with
people who bring down your focus and energy. Rushing a fraternity is the
opposite of choosing your associates carefully. It's taking a big risk on who
your going to be stuck with for the next 4 years and gambling away your
identity.

When you commit yourself to a time intensive organization or social group, it
becomes your identity to everyone else (like it or not). If you want to live a
self-aware life, only commit your time and identity to organizations whose
function and purpose you passionately believe in.

If you are doing it to party, rest assured other campus organizations will
party just as much. If you are doing it to meet girls, do community service
instead. Trust me, hot girls LOVE doing community service.

edit: thanks for the downvotes, br0s.

Challenge to any fraternity members: How are Greek Fraternities not the exact
definition of a "sick system" as defined here:
<http://issendai.livejournal.com/572510.html> and discussed thoroughly on YC
here: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1677013>

?

~~~
Zev
There's a benefit to getting to know people with interests other than yours.
Perhaps you'll discover that you actually like something new.

~~~
metamemetics
Agreed. However (analogy) if you want to get to know someone you go on a date,
not get married.

------
frederickcook
I joined a fraternity because I was an introverted engineering major, and
wanted to get some social skills.

It worked. In addition to social skills, I took leadership positions, managed
teams of people, managed a budget, learned invaluable presentation skills, and
probably most importantly, gained a great deal of self-confidence.

I wouldn't be a startup founder without all those skills, nor would I be a
startup founder without my hacker skills.

That said, the fraternity I joined annually won awards as a top fraternity at
it's campus and nationally. I know many others who joined fraternities and had
very different experiences.

~~~
Loy
I have one warning for the author tho. Frats are societies and as such they
are regulated by a hierarchy. Don't ever forget it. You don't need to be a
leader right away, but you certainly want to avoid the bottom of the ladder.
There is - always - at least one goofy in every group.

 _I want to be social and party and so on._

You probably just want a shortcut to girls. I'd say go for it, experience
things by yourself. But remember that your adhesion to a frat (or anything
else for that matter) won't do everything for you. Status is determined by the
way other members treat you.

By the way, "being good with crowds", "dancing", etc: it's a smoke screen.
Don't focus on that. All you need is to be liked by the leaders (aspire to
become one).

The first mistake you can make is trying to please them by doing everything
they ask. You'll see the majority of people will try to please them this way.
Avoid this trap.

Use your smartness and some boldness. Be active, make it your own experience,
don't be passive and wait to be fed. If you are active and bring something
with your personnality and energy, it'll be hard not to like you. Be around
the right guys. A couple of social psychology books might be useful as well.
It's a good challenge.

------
kloncks
I'm an Engineer (though I count myself as extroverted) and joined a fraternity
in college. It's my junior year now. I also know a few Comp Sci kids in other
fraternities.

The answer is: it depends on which fraternity you're looking at and what their
values/priorities are.

The stereotypical fraternity guy that gets portrayed in tv shows does
exist...but only in specific fraternities. I would shy away from that.

A fraternity can be a great experience and one you couldn't really trade for
anything else. Not everyone starts college extroverted and outgoing.

My advice? Find a fraternity that will embrace you and extend your character
NOT change who you are inside or alter your values. If that's what you've
found, go for it. If not, keep looking.

In my fraternity, I'm hardly the only "nerd" around in terms of interests. We
may not look like it from the outside but the topics we will discuss in our
free time (which is sometimes at 3 in the morning) include everything from the
typical college scene, to Israel/Palestine, Obama/McCain, melting polar caps,
and the philosophy of death. I can easily say that my fraternity in college
has let me find those guys that I want to be there at my wedding...not to
mention gave me a number of fun stories to tell later!

Shoot me an email (it's in my profile) and we can gladly talk more about this
if you want.

Edit: Sorry, didn't see your last question! I think it might come as a
surprise to some, but the things you will need to learn to fit in a fraternity
are the same sorts of skills you need to be successful and outgoing in
society. Don't focus on "learning drinking games"...but more on learning to be
social, outgoing, raising your public speaking skills, etc. You'll find out
that learning those skills not only makes college life a lot cooler (you'll
also turn into a leader and hone those skills) but also raise you in society,
and that covers everything from nailing a job interview to successfully
talking to a lady.

------
troymc
Being an introvert is fine. It didn't stop Isaac Newton or Emily Dickinson
from doing great things.

Forget about the frat. Go hack on a project that interests you. Both you and
the world will be better off for it.

~~~
inboulder
"Isaac Newton or Emily Dickinson" funny you should have mentioned both of
these folks, they both died virgins. The world might have been better, but
they never got to experience an important part of being human.

~~~
Jach
Be careful with that line of reasoning, especially when not everyone may have
the same ideas of what is "an important part of being human". Using your brain
to do physics/math/writing/programming seems more important an experience than
having sex.

~~~
il
Isn't making a personal, emotional connection with another human being pretty
universally considered an important part of being human?

If you're one of those people who look down on the pursuit of sex as not
worthy of their time/intelligence/effort replace "sex" with "love".

Is doing math more important than experiencing love?

Anyway, I think OP is making the point that it's perfectly possible to do
great intellectual things, make a difference in the world, and still get laid
regularly.

So "I'm too busy doing math" isn't really a valid excuse.

~~~
metamemetics
Are you implying that Isaac Newton was having fun the wrong way? I fail to see
the point. The most important thing to any organism or organization or complex
system is survival, because everything that exists today got here by being
good at existing.

Isaac Newton found a way to achieve immortality, he just did it by reproducing
his ideas on paper as opposed to making mini-clones of himself with his dick.

~~~
il
Wow, my comment must have hit a nerve. I wonder if the people downvoting me
have ever experienced being in a good relationship. I don't mean meaningless
sex, although that is great too, I mean an emotionally involved relationship.

All I'm saying is that, although Newton accomplished great things, he would
have felt more fulfilled and happier if he had also experienced a romantic
relationship at some point.

Now, obviously there exist some people that are asexual and have no innate
desire for sex, and there's nothing wrong with that.

However, I don't believe there is any healthy person in the world, no matter
how introverted, who does not at some point desire a deep, meaningful
relationship with another human being.

~~~
metamemetics
What about Buddhist Monks and Nuns? They must be very depressed.

I completely agree with you that relationships can be fulfilling.

I completely disagree with you that we should be so presumptuous as to let our
experiences with modern day relationships say how one of the most influential
people in the entire history of mankind should have lived his life in the
1600s while completely discounting societal factors such as the role of the
Church in that time period and how vastly different courtship was from what we
know now.

The 1600s.

~~~
heed
We shouldn't be so presumptuous as to define the meaningfulness of any
experience of any person in any time period outside ourselves, period.

It is possible that Newton might have been happier if he had experienced a
romantic relationship, but it is just as likely he would have been unaffected,
or worse off even.

------
pavelludiq
Speaking as a shy person, who managed to mostly outgrow his shyness, remember
these simple pieces of advice:

Know when you're being obnoxious, and don't be. Be nice, but don't let others
push you around. Talk less, listen more, people like it when others listen to
their BS, and don't like to listen to your BS. Don't be arrogant, don't assume
people are stupider than you, even if they are. Be funny, but only from time
to time, if you find yourself making an ass of yourself all or most of the
time, calm down. Most importantly, be bold. Start small, talk to a stranger,
do something stupid, or anything that makes you a bit uncomfortable, and
gradually move up to the harder stuff, like asking a girl out, or something
like that.

Don't be afraid of humiliating yourself to much. After you internalize the
fact that being humiliated isn't so bad, being bold will not be to much of a
problem, and you'll be less shy.

p.s.(if you have bad hygiene, start with that, being smelly makes most of the
above advice useless.)

------
arthurdent
Drinking and partying and dancing a lot will make you get better at drinking
and partying and dancing.

People worry a lot about [achieve task X] _optimally_ , when really its
probably fine to just [achieve task X] _somehow/eventually_.

For example, people read mountains of research to fine tune their workouts.
Guys who work on farms do fine without. "Lift heavy things. Repeat." will make
you strong enough that you shouldn't have to overthink the method you choose.
Don't overthink the social skills thing either. Have fun. Repeat. Drink and
party and dance and you'll get better at it.

------
JangoSteve
When I started college (I'm an Engineer), I was relatively extroverted, but
definitely not a partier or drinker. I wanted to make some of the same changes
you discuss, so I rushed a couple fraternities and made a lot of friends. I
got bids from 3 fraternities but didn't go with any of them, because in the
end, as much as I liked the people, the fraternity lifestyle just didn't jive
with my independence.

I was still able to become well-entrenched in the social scenes, because I
participated in a lot of extra-curricular activities: Formula SAE, Mobile
Robotics, WKUF 97.3FM, The Muse (our art publication), DEX (collegiate
marketing competition), Firebirds Car Club, started a rock band, etc. These
are all things that interested me, and I met a lot of friends, across all
fraternities and sororities and independents, who shared these interests.

My point is this: there are a lot of ways to make friends, be social, and
party. Don't sell yourself short by thinking that a fraternity is the only
path. There are a lot of good reasons to join a fraternity outside of the
social/party aspect, those are the things you should be considering. If a
fraternity seems right to you, then do it. If not, don't worry, there are
other ways.

EDIT: Also, I wouldn't worry about "catching up" socially. Just try to enjoy
yourself. And remember that everyone (and I mean EVERYONE) has something to
teach you. Make it your mission to figure out what that is (and yes, this will
be harder with some people than others).

~~~
yardie
Wow, your experience reads almost exactly like mine. I wasn't an introvert
just choosey about friends. I also did Formula SAE, Solar car racing, started
a magazine with design students, started a culture-based student org. and DJed
at WUVT (90.7) and house parties.

Good fraternities really play down the social networking aspect of themselves.
If you even bring up parties and networking during rush they usually see it as
a turn off. This comes from friends that wanted me to join, but since I
already had a full calendar wouldn't have time for one more thing.

------
mahmud
FWIW, you will be in close proximity with other men, living in a house with
them, hanging out on the couch with them, passing out and prancing around.
However shitty your life might be now, at least you don't wake up to a 21 cock
salute. I managed a property that a frat lived in, and seriously, it IS a
_greek_ society.

It's also my opinion that ex-frat members retain that weird Vince Vaughn
"dude" attitude well past their prime.

I recommend you join groups that are not self-segregating either by gender or
anything else. Art and culture groups are nice.

------
nkurz
Just wondering: does the concept of fraternities make any sense to non-US
readers? Are there parallels elsewhere? I went to a school in the US, but one
that had abolished them years before I got there. I never felt that I was
missing something. But it's interesting to read all the positive responses
here.

True or not, one often hears that that US higher education is the best in the
world. To my knowledge, only the US has fraternities and sororities:
<[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternities_and_sororities>...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternities_and_sororities>).
And yet I've never heard anyone claim that this is our secret advantage.
Perhaps?

~~~
jacobolus
No. That’s not our secret advantage. This is our secret advantage:
[http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/may/27/america...](http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/may/27/america-
my-new-found-land/?pagination=false)

> _By far the best thing about America is its universities. Not Harvard, Yale,
> e tutti quanti: though marvelous, they are not distinctively American—their
> roots reach across the ocean to Oxford, Heidelberg, and beyond. Nowhere else
> in the world, however, can boast such public universities. You drive for
> miles across a godforsaken midwestern scrubscape, pockmarked by billboards,
> Motel 6s, and a military parade of food chains, when—like some pedagogical
> mirage dreamed up by nineteenth-century English gentlemen—there appears…a
> library! And not just any library: at Bloomington, the University of Indiana
> boasts a 7.8-million-volume collection in more than nine hundred languages,
> housed in a magnificent double-towered mausoleum of Indiana limestone._

> _A little over a hundred miles northwest across another empty cornscape
> there hoves into view the oasis of Champaign-Urbana: an unprepossessing
> college town housing a library of over ten million volumes. Even the
> smallest of these land grant universities—the University of Vermont at
> Burlington, or Wyoming’s isolated campus at Laramie—can boast collections,
> resources, facilities, and ambitions that most ancient European
> establishments can only envy.[fn1]_

> _..._

> _My own perspective is still colored by that year in Davis. Originally the
> agricultural extension of the University of California, precariously perched
> amid the rice paddies of the Sacramento River delta—halfway between San
> Francisco and nowhere in particular—UC Davis now boasts 3.3 million volumes,
> a world-class research faculty, and the country’s leading green energy
> program. Some of the most interesting colleagues I know have spent their
> lives in Davis. At the time, however, this was a mystery to me: the year
> completed, I retreated cautiously to the Olde English familiarity of
> Cambridge. But nothing was quite the same. Cambridge itself felt somehow
> reduced and constricting: the pancake-flat Fenland as remote as any rice
> paddy. Everywhere is somewhere else’s nowhere._

> _[fn1]: By way of comparison, the University Library in Cambridge, England,
> boasts just seven million volumes; the University of Vienna (founded in
> 1365) just 6.6 million._

~~~
nkurz
Great article, thanks! I agree about the libraries. While the internet
probably levels the field, I've visited libraries in many countries and feel
confident saying that public libraries are one of things that America does
right.

------
augiehill
Own the geekiness.

Being comfortable and confident with who you are is the most important thing
in life IMO, and other people gravitate towards people that are confident.

You can't fundamentally change who you are... it just doesn't happen, but you
can grow gradually through your experiences, so I say take full ownership of
who you are and don't force yourself into super uncomfortable situations. I
say try it out, but be prepared to drop it if you find that it's just not for
you.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Disagree. I decided in college to quit being the shy farm kid. Worked out
great. Its just a matter of practice.

~~~
augiehill
I should elaborate. I think he should work on being more social, but not
necessarily social like the guys in the frats. Don't do what they do... be
outgoing in your own way and be true to yourself. Wear those Magic: The
Gathering t-shirts if that's what you love and you're guaranteed to find
people that share your interests and who you will enjoy the company of more.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Dr Who TShirts!

------
forkandwait
I can't comment on the frat aspect, but I _can_ comment on how to be become
extroverted: take some theater classes at the junior college. After 2
semesters of acting -- getting up in front of people and trying to project
emotion and drama while interacting with your fellow actors -- you will never
consider yourself shy again.

~~~
cmos
This over and over again!

My mother forced me to try out for drama my freshman year of high school. She
bothered me all summer and said that if I tried out, I could choose whether to
join or not, and she would never bother me again. I was shy, introverted and
scared of most social situations that didn't involve my 4 highly geeky
childhood friends. Going up on stage was simply not going to be something I
was going to do. I agreed to go just so she would stop bothering me.

Brilliantly enough, I met so many girls during the audition and even got
invited to a party later that night that I sang 'happy birthday' out of key
and got the part of 'man with umbrella'. It never occurred to me after that
day to not do drama. (FYI: men will usually always get some chorus part, and
even if you can't sing, you'll be in a group of people who can, which is 10x
easier than alone)

I did a musical every year throughout high school and had the _time_ of my
life. It made it easy to speak in public, win business plan competitions, talk
at trade shows, cold call people for sales, do interviews in front of a
camera, and got me invited to 3-4 formals per year during high school.

If you want to start your own company this is the most fun way to be learning
extroversion.

------
andre3k1
I'm in a fraternity and can give you some coached advice. Every year we like
to pull in that stereotypical, socially-awkward kid.

Why? Because their funny.

Your best bet is to be honest about your social ineptitude and play it off in
a comedic fashion.

Pledging (and being around the older guys) will help you develop the social
skills that you desire. If you're a hacker you're probably logical and
analytical as hell. When you go out with these guys analyze them and what they
do. Break it down and repeat their processes. What works for them will work
for you.

------
dan00
You've to differentiate between introversion and shyness. Introversion can't
be overcome in the same way as shyness.

Introversion is a deep personal habit. If you don't like crowds, than you will
never be able to enjoy them as extrovert people. You can get more used to
them, but they will always exhaust you.

Shyness is more of a learnt habit, the result of missing interactions with
people and the result of a low self-confidence. When you interact more with
people and rise your self-confidence, than also the shyness will decrease.

~~~
xiongchiamiov
Good point. I'm most certainly an introvert (I scored straight 100s in S and C
on a recent DISC assessment), but not what I would consider shy. I'm not
afraid of talking to people; I just normally don't have anything to say (or
prefer to keep my snarky responses to myself).

------
viggity
Joining a fraternity was one of the best decisions I've ever made. It is a
million times more easy to become involved on campus activities when you have
a large social network via the Fraternity.

I've got 100 friends for life, 20 of which I see frequently at various events
like Homecoming or football games.

Stay with it until you get a better feeling for how well you mesh with
everyone else and decide then - just make sure that you give it your all and
try to hang out with them as much as possible.

Good Luck.

~~~
xiongchiamiov
I was in the marching band my first quarter. There are 200 people I know at
every football game.

------
mx12
A) From what most of what my friends have said, pledging isn't that bad, but
it depends on the frat

B) Attend something outside of your normal circle of friends. Join a student
organization or club sports team if you like sports. I graduated with a EE
degree and I did cheerleading (At a big ten university :) my sophomore and
junior year of college. It was a great experience to meet people outside of
other engineers.

As a side not, when I was a freshman I thought about joining a frat, but the
reason why I didn't join was because people tend to label you based on what
frat you belong to. This is especially true if you meet a sorority girl, they
will instantly know the reputation of your frat. So just know the reputation
of the frat you want to join first before joining.

------
zck
I've recommended it before; I'll recommend it again: improv. The other new
people there won't know what they're doing either, so everyone else will be
just as awkward as you are. It will teach you to be more comfortable in the
spotlight, even when you have no idea what you're going to say next, or what
you're currently saying. It also ends at a specified time (e.g., improv club
meets from 9:00 to 10:30), so you don't have to make excuses to leave.

Besides, it's a crazy amount of fun.

------
DuncanIdaho
I was in your shoes once. Now I'm widely considered as one of most socially
apt/spontaneous people in any group.

By all means - be bold. Heed my advice that fear is good while phobias are
bad. You should embrace fear - since fear is what will motivate you to prepare
for your encounters. While systematically working against your phobias. The
only way to demolish your "phobias" is by acting against your fight/flight
impulses.

Do not be affraid of making a fool of yourself. Because You WILL make a fool
of yourself. Embrace it. Tell people about it. Remember you should always put
your shortcomings/weak spots in public view (hide in plain sight). Thus people
who will try to "damage" you will try to find your hidden spots - where you
are actually the "hardest".

One thing that has worked for me (YMMV) is not to "follow" people. ESPECIALLY
popular people - find "weak" people and start helping them on feeling better
about themselves, help them out socially (the mere fact that you posted here
is a sign that you are not so inept as you think of yourself). Thus you will
create your own following - eventually converting the "popular" people into
your own followers.

And listen to "Wear Sunscreen" - it contains all the secrets of the trade.
That is all there is to it.

------
derwiki
It sounds like you know it already, but absolutely quit if you think anything
turns into hazing -- it's a cheap way to build friendships and good
fraternities don't need that. Past that, don't go overboard on drinking at
first either. That's really not a good reason to be joining a fraternity
anyway, you can drink with anyone.

Use your nerdier qualities to help the fraternity. We built an interactive
carnival booth for a campus event that used a program I wrote to play
different songs when an external switch was toggled. Don't let the fraternity
change you -- use it as a way to be comfortable with your nerdiness.
Friendships and social interaction will start becoming natural after that.

To echo what frederickcook said, there are -great- fraternities out there that
will give you an opportunity to become a leader (and they are often the
chapters that are winning national awards). Taking advantage of these
opportunities is something I regularly cite as one of the best moves I made in
undergrad. Try picking a less involved position in the house as soon as you
can -- there are usually a few suited toward freshmen.

------
gte910h
Make sure you've chosen men you wish to become like; you do become like those
you associate with. Make sure they're just, reasonable, and not buffoons or
asses.

Past that, joining a Fraternity is one of the easiest ways to learn some of
the soft skills of adulthood, including asking out women, enjoying the company
of strangers, learning storytelling, learning smalltalk, and completing
project involving the motivation and leadership of other men.

Some of them are a also a good way to learn poor habits with alcohol or
distasteful treatment of women: Make sure you aren't in one of those.

Additionally, many of them do bad things to your grades (however on average,
most greeks do better than non-greeks gradewise). Make sure you're in one who
has one of the higher 2-3 grades on campus with stringent grade standards.

Usually in most fraternity organizations, you get a guide/brother assigned to
you; bring up some of your doubts with him and you may find out he will have
some suggestions for you and be able to help some.

------
tchae
Hey, it's important to take the #JFDI concept and put it to this as well. I'm
a very extroverted individual (makes sense since I focus on the actual
business part of startups - non-tech) and I can say I have this same "shy and
sheltered" personality about entering the engineering scene.

God knows, how much I would love to get into it, as I'm sure you would love to
get into the whole social scene.

Don't worry about "where to start" "who to talk to" "what to learn and how".
Just fucking do it. Although I'm not encouraging underage drinking, pick up a
cup, don't get too crazy, have a good time.

While you are trying to be social and extroverted for maybe the first time of
your life, the ONLY thing that is going to make you look awkward to your frat
brothers or any other people is how YOU see yourself.

Don't hesitate, get out there, get knee deep into the scene and pretty soon
you'll have friends who appreciate you and you will be able to be real open
with all of them.

------
taelor_rb
Love this post, and I hope my thoughts can help. I am fairly recent Comp Sci
grad who is probably one of the most well liked guys in my Fraternity, as well
as other frats.

Do you think I can improve and should try to complete the pledge process?

Yes and yes.

If you guys think I should go for it, how can I "catch up" socially? What do I
need to learn and how?

A few things:

1) Think before you talk/act, aka, don't do anything stupid/embarrassing. I
see so many guys just blurt shit out that they think is funny, but actually
makes people (girls) feel super uncomfortable.

2) Be nice. Always. Don't be condescending or every try and look down on
others. Be polite and a gentleman. Don't try and be some macho dick head guy
like alot of the other frat guys are. The more you help your brothers out (as
well as other fraternity guys) the more they will have your back.

3) Figure out who some of the most well liked guys in the fraternity are,
watch them, learn from them. Emulate (not imitate) and build on the things
they say and do.

4) Be confident, but not cocky.

5) Careful on the drinking and such. Start off in smaller groups so you can
get the hang of it. Once you know how much you can tolerate, then you can
start drinking in larger groups and start letting lose.

6) Chicks are really starting to dig nerds, as long as your cool about it.
Embrace it, just don't go overboard with it.

BTW, your obviously not truly an introvert, otherwise you probably would be
having the urges to change. You prolly just went to some shitty high school
with shitty people. College is a great time to really find yourself, and be
yourself.

I hope some of these words will help, and if you wanna talk more, let me know.
Hell, I love road trips, I'll come drink and party with a hacker anytime.

Curious, who did you pledge?

------
wybo
I joined a small fraternity (or student association as they are called in the
Netherlands) relatively late in my course. If I regret anything, it is not
joining earlier.

It is great fun, and there is a lot in terms of social skills, working in
groups, and fulfilling roles, that you will learn along the way. Don't worry
about making a fool of yourself, because as long as you do it with a smile
(and say sorry where due), people will like you for it :-) Drinking before you
do this will also help :-)

And about making your pick: I'd go for a smaller one (~ 200 members), that you
feel at home at. The people there will most likely be more diverse and
welcoming.

I went through a (moderate) hazing, and even that is not too bad, as long as
you remember that it is a game, and that it will only last for a specific
amount of time. Running away is the only mistake you can make.

------
gphil
I was in a fraternity in college and definitely one of the geekier members. I
felt it really helped my interpersonal skills a lot, and I made a lot of
really great friends in the process. The best advice I can give is not to
worry about catching up socially or feeling comfortable with large groups
right off the bat--these things won't necessarily come quickly or naturally. I
would suggest figuring out who in the fraternity you get along with and work
on forming friendships with those individuals. Just try to make friends with
the people you like and the rest should follow naturally. That said, if there
is no one in the fraternity you would like to be friends with, then you
probably should consider other social options.

------
skowmunk
I have been an extroverted kid, then became big time shy and timid as a teen
and now getting out of it.

From experience and observation, I would say, you being shy and timid so far
doesn't mean you have to be like that forever or you will be like that
forever.

Yes, you can definitely improve, there is no magic pill, just get yourself
into social situations with crowds, try to open out and learn from errors, you
may stumble sometimes, you may embarrass yourself sometimes, but none of them
are going to kill you.

You can even use your embarrassment as funny stories later.

But don't wait to work on your social skills and then pledge, use this
exposure itself as a tool to increase your social quotient.

Make and surround yourself with some understanding friends but relatively more
extroverted people. It can help.

Good luck.

------
j_baker
"But now I'm in college and I want to change. I want to be social and party
and so on."

Here's the thing you have to understand: the ideas of introversion and
extraversion that you hear are usually a bit of an oversimplification.
_Everyone_ has an introverted and extraverted side. It's just that one of them
is always dominant.

With that in mind, there's nothing wrong with developing your extraverted
side. But it sounds like you're trying to change from being an introvert to an
extravert which is futile. I know that I (as an introvert) wouldn't be able to
handle a fraternity: I'd simply be too drained by the experience.

Instead, learn to enjoy being introverted and engage your extraverted side
from time to time. You'll be much better off that way.

------
joshhart
Do it. I'm almost concerned that there's NO hazing... a small amount builds
bonds with your pledge brothers

I spent my first three years at the University of Florida not in a fraternity,
spending most of my time doing homework. My classmates in engineering were
incredibly boring people. My fourth year, I decided I couldn't do another year
of it and I either needed to take some time off or make a radical change.

I joined a lower-mid fraternity(DTD - could have done "better" had I
understood rush, but it was an excellent fit for me) and started enjoying
college for the first time. I met my fiancee at a social there. My best
memories of college are probably the time I "wasted" shooting the shit during
lunch at my fraternity.

~~~
gte910h
> I'm almost concerned that there's NO hazing... a small amount builds bonds
> with your pledge brothers

After being in one that had a very stringent no hazing policy which they stuck
to, I doubt that hazing would make me feel better about anyone in that group
or my incoming class.

~~~
jpdbaugh
I think there is a definite difference between positive hazing and negative
hazing. Positive to me would be dropping off the pledge class in the woods or
something and having them find their way home. Negative would be sexual abuse.
I think the former definitely builds bonds and is just a whole lot of fun.

------
SteveMorin
1) Just join it's better jump in the water so to speak, because if you wait a
semester more than likely things won't be very different from the way they are
now.

2) The is no catching up so to speak. But the closest thing you can probably
is to just show up to all the events, chapter meetings, socials with
sororities, and things with your pledge class. Observe and thing will start to
come naturally, and don't be afraid so speak up.

If I think of the errors people make is trying to hard. Don't try too hard, if
you do people will pick up one that and it will back fire.

I wasn't always very social, joined a fraternity in college(which wasn't my
natural inclination) and was for the first year the only engineer in my
fraternity. My senior year there were three of us out of 80 guys. I was
eventually VP of my fraternity. So things can totally work out.

Honestly I think joining a fraternity can be one of the best things you do.
But it's a lot like schools, girls or cars, you need the one that's right for
you. Just like startups or companies the culture can be very different. Yes I
said culture. Pick one where there are generally good people, there are always
asholes in every organization but is almost everyone a ashole or one or two.

Just because you join a fraternity you don't have to give in to peer pressure,
stand up for what you believe in ultimately when it matters, because a lot of
things don't matter.

If you want to socialize your self more don't pick a academic fraternity based
on what I believe your goals that you described.

Look your a hacker mean your smart, mean you can definitely figure things out.
Go with the flow, RELAX and don't make a big deal of things in your head, when
things don't go as smooth as you like, because in all likely hood your the
only one who noticed.

Trick number one, none of the other pledges know what their doing either even
if they are social don't worry about it.

Don't worry about dancing especially, guys never know what they are doing
especially in college.

If you want any more advice shoot me a email, find it in my profile

------
reader5000
I can tell you are going to go for it. This is good; don't wait a semester or
whatever. As far as "catching up" socially, a lot of that is in your head
(i.e., nobody is thinking "hey Introverty is a one-of-a-kind shy awkward
loser"). Virtually every one of your freshmen classmates is socially unsure;
that's college. People just deal with it differently: some by being drunken
and obnoxious, others by never going outside. If you find you can never seem
to warm up in social situations (that is, always finding them agonizing to the
point of avoidance) you may want to look into anti-anxiety medications (or
diet modifications) that will help your confidence.

------
alexsherrick
I'm sure many people won't read this bc it will be buried, but if you want to
give a frat a shot you should. I graduated college about a year ago from UT,
and it was the best time of my life. However, you don't need a frat. I had
plenty of friends that were in frats, but I chose to party on my own, I feel
like you meet more "genuine" people outside of the Greek system. I'd love to
talk to you about how to be more social in college if you are up for it. Not
sure if you can PM in HN, but look me up on reddit or facebook.

Take it easy and relax, don't stress about meeting people, you will come out
of college with the best friends of your life.

------
drewmast
Go for it! And, no don't wait.. the harder your course load gets, the more
excuses you'll make.

Some of my best friends today are guys I never would have met (or probably
even liked, for that matter) without having shared the whole fraternity
experience. And, I'm talking about the "boring" stuff when I say frat
experience. Working on projects, figuring out creative ways to get 60+ guys to
do something they didn't want to do, volunteering, etc., etc.

It's just like anything else, it's what you make of it, and what your trying
to get out of it. I saw guys who were really good at all the social stuff, but
never took a thing from the overall bigger experience and just kind of faded
out. I also saw people who came in without all that (very shy, didn't know how
to play games or whatever). They wanted to grow as a person, and gain
experience being apart of a team, build leadership skills, and what not, they
could and really did thrive, and became just amazing leaders later on.

To answer your questions though: Don't worry about it, and just be yourself!
My fraternity would invite people over to hang out a few times or go watch
some game or something before ever even talking about parties. This was a way
to weed out people only interested in that. Not everyone just gets a bid to
keep the organization alive like a few posters mentioned.

For your situation, (which isn't unusual, and probably everyone else is also
worried about it) this would be an awesome time for you to "get in" and get to
know guys in a non-party setting. Get to know people like that, and the social
part will just fall into place. You'll be hanging out with new friends rather
than being worried about being in a big crowd or drinking or whatever.

You got a lot of advice, so I won't go on. I do have things I didn't really
like as well but overall it was a really great experience. E-mail me if you
want more, there's a pretty good movie I can recommend that is the most "right
on" portrayal of Greek life, and the lead character is some guy without any
social skills who is concerned about the same things you are. (If you watch
though, don't ever tell your brothers because they will make fun of you.
However, always, always, be trying to figure out a way to bring it up in
conversations with girls..)

------
jpcx01
I had the same urge. I had been an introverted hacker all through high school,
and when I went to college wanted a change. So I joined a fraternity.

It didn't work out. The frat guys were cool, but they did stuff you would
expect frat guys to do. And after a few weeks of it, I got really really
bored. The parties were somewhat fun but only for the drinking. Not a lot of
interesting conversation to be had.

After a month, I bailed and switched over to the dorms. Can tell you I was
much happier there, hanging with people who I had something in common with.

------
mburney
I would say go for it. To catch up socially, just go to a lot of parties and
talk to people, but don't try too hard, its OK to be less talkative in your
first few parties, but don't avoid interaction either.

In a frat some guys will like to bust your balls and you will have to come up
with quick responses. Don't worry about responding eloquently, you will get
better over time. But make sure you don't laugh it off, agree, or self-
deprecate...bust their balls back. It is all in good fun. This is how your
social skills will improve.

~~~
eru
Busting balls is a social skill?

~~~
DuncanIdaho
You are a lady I presume?

Actually I find ball busting a form of art. I know a couple of people that are
so good at it that they actually sense your comfort level - and maneuver right
below the treshold.

This is the kind of people you call when your bored - take them out and beg
them to mock you!

Actually I find ball busting a human form of:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNvQ2AC23cg> . It's what young males do to
learn about social cause/effect. I find it less damaging to one's personality
to what young girls do to each other.

~~~
eru
Mocking is fine. But is there actually content to those fraternities? Any
shared interest? Or is it just people hanging out, binge drinking? (Oh, the
American drinking age.)

I am not from the US. Your presumption about my gender is wrong.

~~~
DuncanIdaho
I have no idea - I'm not from US.

I'm an extreme athlete - and I'm in a circle of "jocks" (most extreme athletes
are like that), so I understand how this kind of "young male" groups work and
what dynamics are involved.

------
brk
Wow a lot of good responses here.

One thing I didn't see though is that most fraternities assign you a "big
brother" as a sort of mentor and helper through your pledge process. Hopefully
you have (or will get) a Big Brother who you can ask for advice and direction
through the process.

The rest of it will come naturally if it's what you really want. Don't get too
hung up on the details, just let yourself actually enjoy the experience. If
you do, I'm sure you will learn a lot, teach a lot, and make friends for life.

------
tlrobinson
I'm another introverted engineer who was in a fraternity in college and lived
to talk about it.

Much more important than your social skills being up to par is whether you
think you'll get along with the other guys in your pledge class, and the rest
of the fraternity. They will become some of your best friends, so if you hate
them then don't do it.

Which college and/or fraternity, if you don't mind me asking?

------
Zev
My advice is to go for it. At worst, you'll have a story to tell a few years
later. Or you can make a few friends. Either way, it'll likely have some sort
of positive outcome.

Personally, I didn't join a frat. Not for me. But, I know a few people who did
-- and they've had good things to say. Maybe not about the rush, but about
everything else afterwards.

~~~
gte910h
Rush is one of the most clearly valuable exercises in sales and getting people
to like you that you will ever do. If you join a fraternity, you end up being
on the other side of it 3-12 other times (depends on how often your school
rushes).

I'll tell you this, smalltalk with strangers while trying to sell something is
_so_ easy after the approximately 50 nights of rush I did during college,
trying to sell people on an organization while chatting for hours.

------
jpdbaugh
Shop for a fraternity wisely. How well you respect and enjoy being around the
guys is far more important than the fraternity's social status on campus! I
think that is the most important thing to remember.

------
swaits
Since we're offering advice, here's mine: Run away!

------
cseric
go build facebook.

------
baby
just get drunk. The alcohol will do the rest.

------
lzw
It really depends on the frat. If it is a frat that is oriented around
academic excellence (are there any of those?) then don't worry... just being
in the frat will help you in this regard.

I think the secret for this whole process is this: Learn to not care about
being humiliated. Humiliate yourself, in fact. IF they give you a chance to
tell your most embarassing story, do it. And try to do it well. By doing so
they will know that the story can't really be used against you, and that you
have the guts to tell it.

The trick is, people are naturally shy and insecure. Frats and "hazing" are
all about getting over that, in a typically hamfisted male-bonding sort of
way.

If your conscious mind can take control, and if you can be super rational, you
can excel socially. Most people your age do not know this, and are afraid. But
if you have nothing to fear because you realize that what you're afraid of is
really inconsequential, then this gives you immense power.

You can actually hack the frat knowing this.

The bully whose always picking on you? Well, he's doing so because he's
insecure. In fact, he'll telegraph to you what he's insecure about in the
nature of his picking on you.

Same thing with arrogance.

Shy guys? They'll be your best friends if you are nice to them.... you can buy
a lot of loyalty with a little bit of niceness. (And loyalty is a valuable
currency.)

for dealing with crowds, just pick one or two people to focus on-- initially
anyone you've had any previous contact with. Don't be clingy, or follow them
around, but don't try to relate to everyone.

If you walk into a room and know nobody, just walk up to the cutest girl and
ask her name. That's it. If she doesn't start talkign to you, or looks nervous
or makes an excuse then wait and see if anyone approaches you after a few
minutes and if not, just find someone else and introduce yourself.

~~~
drivebyacct2
The sad thing about this post is why the idea of most fraternities is a
complete turn off.

It's all about tricks and gaming people by being fake. I know they aren't all
this way, I know they have benefits. I still see the same behaviors, too
often.

~~~
philk
Acting in a way that's unfamiliar and uncomfortable will always feel fake
initially. If the OP wants to get out of his shell he'll have to be awkward
and fake for a while.

Happily this will fade with time as he becomes more accustomed to acting that
way.

~~~
drivebyacct2
I'm not talking about the getting over being shy. I'm talking about the over
compensating that causes all of the ones-up-manship and degradation amongst
members that I've seen.

I wouldn't knock any of the positive aspects of gaining some social skills...

~~~
gte910h
I'd honestly say, in my experience, there were certainly a couple oneupsman
type people, the vast majority weren't. And the dealing with the ones who were
in something that mattered before getting a job with that exact sort of
people, was a great bit of job training.

