
Mindfulness versus Concentration - MaysonL
https://www.farnamstreetblog.com/2015/12/mindfulness-versus-concentration/
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factorialboy
I'm sorry, but this is a blog post that is entirely an excerpt from a book and
a amazon referal URL to that book :-/

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reitanqild
Thanks. That said, as long as is otherwise qualifies and the amazon referral
URL isn't deceptive I would say it is OK. (Warning, came to the comments
first.)

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aaimnr
For anyone on HN seriously interested in this topic, I would wholeheartedly
recommend the recently published "The Mind Illuminated" book written by
Culadasa, professor of neuroscience and a _very_ accomplished meditator. [
[http://www.amazon.com/dp/0990847705](http://www.amazon.com/dp/0990847705) ]

For all the other commenters asking why Mindfulness and Concentration are used
as technical terms - that's because they correspond to Sati and Samadhi -
terms in Pali used by the Buddha.

One of the takeaways of the book mentioned above is that concentration is NOT
a state of being concentrated on a single object. It's a state of unification
of the mind that persists regardless of its current object. The other
important information (obvious for any serious meditator) is that, once
reached, it DOESN'T require lot of force to sustain. On the contrary - it's a
much more energy efficient mode of functioning. That's why in the 4th Jhana
(one of the most advanced states of concentration) the breath completely
subsides. It wouldn't be possible if it required so much force. BTW it doesn't
mean that the oxygen intake stops completely as there's still some absorption
caused by the air diffusion in the lungs and through the skin (cutaneous
respiration).

Again, I really recommend the book by Culadasa for anyone even remotely
interested. It's amazing from theoretical point of view and even more
concerning meditation practice.

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avtar
Thanks for the book recommendation, I'll definitely check it out.

Shaila Catherine has written a couple of books on the topic of jhanas. Her
most recent one is a meditation manual which covers insight meditation
practice as well. It would make for a great companion on long retreats.

[http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/086171623X/](http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/086171623X/)

~~~
aaimnr
Thanks, it's on my kindle as well (haven't finished it yet though).

As I see it, Culadasa is better suited both for general audience and for those
more scientifically inclined - that's why it seems to be ideal fit for HNers.
It also seems to be much more ambitious, systematic work (it's his opus
magnum). Probably Shaila's books target more advanced meditators - that's not
to say Culadasa is just for beginners.

~~~
pwm
I have read Focused and Fearless from her. Some topics are indeed geared
towards more seasoned practitioners, nevertheless it is a great book with a
wealth of information that helps deeper understanding. Highly recommended.

~~~
aaimnr
I've seen a lot of praise about this one and I'm wondering whether it's worth
reading it after Wisdom Wide and Deep (great titles btw :) or is the most
important material from F&F repeated in the second one as well.

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orthoganol
I was just reading through some old LessWrong articles, in particular this one
about making up categories:

> ... Or you can see this in terms of the boundless human ability to make
> stuff up out of thin air and believe it because no one can prove it's wrong.
> As soon as you name the category, you can start making up stuff about it.
> The named thing doesn't have to be perceptible; it doesn't have to exist; it
> doesn't even have to be coherent. [1]

Came to mind with the way 'mindfulness' and 'concentration' were being used as
'technical' terms. It felt slightly like Deepak Chopra. Why do articles like
this get respect but something like, say, continental philosophy doesn't? Is
is simply because meditation is popular?

[1]
[http://lesswrong.com/lw/nx/categorizing_has_consequences/](http://lesswrong.com/lw/nx/categorizing_has_consequences/)

~~~
carapat_virulat
Because western Buddhism has no moral commitments and that makes it a good fit
for postmodern mentality, as in you can do whatever you want as long as you
keep the necessary distance. It's a way to get inner peace without having to
change anything about your real life behavior and beliefs, you get to have the
cake and to eat it too.

You just have to see how most meditation companies sell their product, the
first movement is telling you that this is a way to escape modern consumerism,
the stress of modern life, a more authentic life. The second movement is
telling you that with their help you will be even more productive at the
consumerist game. So you get everything, you have to sacrifice nothing.

~~~
throwaway999888
The book is explicitly aimed (or marketed, if you will) at people of all
beliefs and backgrounds.

I guess the author is more concerned with teaching something that works rather
than looking down on the sinful masses.

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shanusmagnus
I hate to see this guy's blog linked -- his business model seems to consist
largely of ripping off other people's content, sometimes verbatim, and
replacing the Amazon affiliate links with his own. See for instance his
'rebranding' of Tyler Cowan's 2015 best books of the year, and Bill Gates's. I
emailed him and pointed out that this didn't smell right, but was met with
radio silence.

I bet his 'leadership' seminars are amazing, though.

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LifeQuestioner
I'm not to keen on the article. I'm a 2 year frequent meditator who has been
studying Tibetan buddhism and learning from monks. This doesn't mean I'm
correct, it's just some background. I also have Adhd.

I don't feel he exaplains himself well in the article and just states what he
claims are facts. 'It's a state free of greed, hatred delusion' etc etc. Some
of these are emotions and I certainly can concentrate well when feeling strong
emotions.

'Can only max out concerntration for a short time'. (not direct quote)

I'd question this because of flow where an individual can loose themselves for
hours on end on one thing. And what about Adhd hyperfocus? The inability to
switch task and move on. That takes power.

Sure, mindfulness and concentration are different. I've found my concentration
had become much better since engaging in mindfulness. But for me personally,
concentration isn't willpower in all tasks. Some it is, some it takes
willpower to move myself away, sometimes it's linked to my ability to let go
of distraction (I prefer the word attraction).

~~~
aaimnr
I agree with your second point, real concentration doesn't require lot of
force to sustain, actually it requires much less force than regular mind
wandering.

In regard to you first question, he's right - if you're interested look up
topic of "Five Mental Hindrances" \- when you reach really deep state of
concentration (called Jhana) you drop all of these. Which means that if you
still feel any strong emotions, you still have some work to do as the mind is
not stable.

Stability and calmness of the mind are very important factors of right
concentration, however it's not immediately obvious, as the english word
'concentration' has lot of these forceful connotations. That's why there's lot
of people criticizing translation Pali term Samadhi as Concentration and
suggest using 'unification', 'centeredness' etc instead.

~~~
LifeQuestioner
Thanks for that added information, i'll check those out!

Question, would enjoyment be an emotion or pleasure? Thus these could enable a
person to maintain more concentration because they're happy/having fun/
Perhaps these do not fit into the "strong" emotions category.

Edit: so reading the 5 hinderances is interesting. I guess I was thinking the
author was suggesting "all emotions" and using those three(hate, etc) as
examples rather than there being a select few "negative emotions" which can
hinder concentration. Thanks!

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aaimnr
There are actually some wholesome mental states that are conducive to
concentration. The most notorious are piti (translated as rapture, joy) and
sukha (content, pleasure). Listen to this guy, may be useful
[http://dharmatreasure.org/piti-joy/](http://dharmatreasure.org/piti-joy/)
(his superb book:
[http://www.amazon.com/dp/0990847705](http://www.amazon.com/dp/0990847705) ).

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throwaway999888
The book is available online.

[http://www.vipassana.com/meditation/mindfulness_in_plain_eng...](http://www.vipassana.com/meditation/mindfulness_in_plain_english.php)

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q-base
Interesting perspective! I hadn't made that connection before.

Having followed Farnam Street for quite some time I must say that the quality
of content is quite variable. In the beginning I always read the Sunday
newsletter and most of the content was really good and thoughtful. As the
site/newsletter has gained traction I feel like the quality have declined a
bit unfortunately. I do not read all Sunday newsletters anymore and the ones I
do only confirm my suspicion. Of course it's free and I can unsubscribe
anytime - so no complaint - just a comment.

This post however is really good!

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b6
I'm very happy to see an article like this on HN. This is the type of stuff
I'm very interested in lately.

The sources I've found most helpful so far are the books _Mindfulness in Plain
English_ and _Beyond Mindfulness in Plain English_.

Very briefly, we pretty much already understand the concepts that will allow
us to take control of our minds and see what's going on clearly, but those are
concepts, when what is needed is experience. Meditative states help us gain
experiential knowledge, and in the process, we rearrange the plumbing in the
basements of our minds. For example, having thoroughly experienced
impermanence in meditation, we naturally stop wanting to freeze time or cling
to things.

I seem to like to make metaphors about fire. In one sense, I see these ideas
as possibly helping put out a global wildfire that's been raging out of
control since the beginning of mankind: people suffer, and, not knowing how to
handle their suffering, harm themselves and others, and we respond in anger,
when it would be better if we responded with compassion. In another sense, we
want to get the fire of compassion lit, to get enough people to awaken that
others can see that it's an attainable goal.

It's nothing less than jailbreaking our minds. We have a lot of evidence it's
possible, just very difficult. But the more people are looking at it, the less
subtle these ideas will seem, and the path will hopefully become more and more
straightforward. I hope that someday, waking up the way the Buddha did will be
a rite of passage for children.

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laotzu
>I hope that someday, waking up the way the Buddha did will be a rite of
passage for children.

According to Zhuangzi, Lao Tzu, and Confucius young children who have yet to
learn our game (language, customs, etc) are already as "awakened" as they will
ever be.

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mping
I think you best learn these concepts from a competent teacher, preferably
someone who walks the walk, and by putting them in practice, not by reading
lots and lots of books with zero practice.

Besides, what the author doesn't know is that concentration leads to
mindfulness (never mind about proper or not), but mindfulness may not lead to
concentration.

For me this is the best book on meditation out there:
[http://www.chanpureland.org/publications/chanhandbook/](http://www.chanpureland.org/publications/chanhandbook/)
where you have very clear explanations of levels of concentrations (jhana or
dhyana), how to pratice the basics on your own, etc. Also lots and lots of
talks on youtube (or download) on Buddhist topics, as well as meditation (non-
religious).

I also learned personally the basics of meditation from their temple, and for
sure they have real meditation skills. Unfortunately, for most us meditation
has to be taught personally, it's not something one can casually learn from
some blog post, never mind finding the proper source.

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hamhamed
Honestly, I've been meditating for months now (using the of apps like Calm,
Headspace) and all it does is make me feel sleepy. Since I do a lot of
algorithms in my head during my sleep, it keeps me awake but focusing on like
my breathing or part of the body keeps me thinking too much.

Maybe im just doing it wrong, idk

~~~
InclinedPlane
Meditation isn't magic, it's just stimulus response.

Consider a skill such as hitting a baseball. This is impossible to do
consciously, but fortunately it doesn't need to be. You train hitting a ball
over and over again, you develop sub-conscious reactions that are triggered by
certain things. When you stand a certain way, when you see the pitcher move in
a certain way, you react, you spool through a series of actions that your
conscious mind only has partial control over, like controlling the reins of a
horse.

The same is true for, say, typing. You do not consciously go through a process
of thinking of a word, thinking of how it is spelled, then recalling the
location of each key, etc. You trigger a mostly unconscious series of
reactions, which is why it takes much longer to type out an unfamiliar word,
regardless of how long it is.

Meditation works along similar principles. You practice entering a certain
mind state, typically relaxation since that is the most important state and
often difficult to achieve when desired, and along the way you sprinkle
certain ritual behavioral aspects (breathing, words, movements, etc.)
Eventually you can shortcut your way there through one of those associative
channels.

For myself, I use breathing out and relaxing my shoulders as the cue. If I
find myself in need of relaxing or being centered I can just take a moment,
breath out, and gain calmness.

You can certainly train yourself to feel sleepier during practice, which is
quite common, it doesn't mean you're doing it wrong, but you might think about
changing things up a bit if that's not what you want.

However, it's a bit of a general purpose system, it's a matter of training
your emotional and mental state the same way you might train your body. You
could, in principle, train yourself toward becoming very angry on cue, or any
other behavior, with varying difficulty.

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gloves
What I've taken from it:

Imagine trying to concentrate - you're likely to be forcing yourself to do it.
It's an action of force.

Now imagine meditation - it's a different mindset - one of letting your mind
go.

They're different things, but work cooperatively to keep you productive in the
right direction.

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novalis78
another great resource on samatha and vipassana (concentration states and
insight/mindfulness meditation) is theravadin.org.

