
Elementary OS Freya Released - aroman
http://elementary.io
======
josephpmay
Talk about a terribly designed website. If someone had no idea what Elementary
OS is, the website does absolutely nothing to tell them. No list of even basic
features. No explanation of compatibility or how to install it. Only a single
screenshot. Why is this the case?

~~~
wanda
elementary OS have a similar mentality to the Vivaldi browser -- it's just for
our friends.

Despite leading with donation panhandling.

Still, I'm using it now because I am tired of Slackware. I love Slack to bits
but the amount of work involved in making my setup look and play nice is just
silly. I'm looking for something like a one-click-pretty-usable Linux for
random laptops/PCs I've accumulated.

PapyrOS might be nice if it's ever finished.

~~~
morbius
I'm going to get a lot of hate for this but if you really, honestly want a no-
frills, easy to set up UNIX for your _personal_ computer, there really is no
better machine than a Macintosh.

~~~
wanda
I agree. I have an iMac and a Thinkpad; I classify these as my work computers.
I really like OS X. It blends the Unix operating system with the best looks/UI
of the OS market. If I could install it (easily/legally) on any hardware, I
would run it everywhere.

At home I have a collection of misfit laptops that were discarded by others or
sold very cheaply. It is these laptops on which I tend to run a Linux distro
(because Windows tends to be slow and no SSH; because I'm not really in the
business of Hackintoshing.)

Running eOS Freya on one of them now. It's not bad. Wifi seems a bit
temperamental--which is astounding given that eOS is based on Ubuntu and
Ubuntu had no trouble with wifi.

~~~
morbius
> If I could install it (easily/legally) on any hardware, I would run it
> everywhere.

That's why I said _personal_ computer :) Another OS X pitfall is that modern,
vendor-supported versions are somewhat resource-intensive and not very fit for
running on older or less powerful systems.

------
octref
It really saddens me how much people underestimate the effort it takes to
create a good UI by saying eOS is just a "pretty Ubuntu clone".

I don't think their blog post[1] is offensive at all. Ubuntu does this too.
[2]

People consider Sublime's popup and "unregistered user" acceptable. How often
do you install/download eOS? Once in a year? And you use it __every-day __,
not only when you do text-editing. And there is no difference between paid or
free user.

[1]:
[http://blog.elementary.io/post/110645528530/payments](http://blog.elementary.io/post/110645528530/payments)
[2]:
[http://www.ubuntu.com/download/desktop/contribute/?version=1...](http://www.ubuntu.com/download/desktop/contribute/?version=14.04.2&architecture=amd64)

~~~
Brakenshire
Yes, elementary have put in a huge amount of work to produce an excellent
product, and a major step towards where Linux needs to be to attract non
technical users, and it is disappointing that so many people seem to be
willing to throw them and their years of work under the bus for what amounts
to poorly chosen wording.

On the substance rather than the wording, surely Hacker News does not agree,
as a group, that open source software should never be monetized, especially on
a voluntary basis. They have rewritten the Linux desktop environment from
scratch, which is an enormous amount of work, and in my experience it works
very well. Why not expect that you could find 10,000 users, many of whom
people spending their professional life on computers, willing to pay $20
(which in the UK is about 4 cups of coffee), and actually be able to support
some developers working on the project full time? That is not at all an
unreasonable goal.

I know about 20 people over the age of 70 who I periodically help with
computer problems, I would say about half of them still using XP on computers
that cannot be upgraded to Windows 8. They principally use their computers for
checking webmail and browsing the internet.

I have tried Ubuntu, but unfortunately it has all sorts of minor UI ruffles
which make it difficult for many non-technical people to use. Some examples
are: people really struggle to use its pop-up scroll bars, partly because the
concept is apparently non obvious, and needs to be explained, and partly
because they're fiddly. Then, programs often open in the background, and don't
come to the front, so the only sign they're ready is an illuminated icon to
the left. And, you get regular pop-up which say 'serious system error
detected' which never seem to amount to anything.

And in general, I would say my experience is that it is not beautiful,
polished or consistent enough to justify to non technical users the change in
user interface which it asks them to make.

Linux is effectively a developer market, it is written by and for developers,
to stratch and itch or for infrastructure. But there has been a consistent
failure to produce an operating system that ordinary people want to use. In my
opinion, Linux also needs a consumer market, which is willing to pay to bring
in other professionals, principally designers, and support them in polishing
the user interface, in the way that users want, to a heavy sheen. Elementary
OS was a step in that direction, and it's very disappointing to see it
apparently shot down for a lack of ideological purity and/or just being
abrasive. Hopefully, despite the level of outrage which many people feel, they
will be able to find their 10,000 users out of the general Linux community,
and carry on regardless.

~~~
dmix
I went through this entire HN thread and the only complaint is that the
website has no information and something like this:

> They have rewritten the Linux desktop environment from scratch

is entirely not communicated on their homepage.

People here are not familiar with the work that they've done. And I don't
blame them. In the software world being able to market/communicate your work
to the public is as important as actually doing the work.

I've been in plenty of threads on HN recently where people have praised the
work on Gnome for improving Linux desktop usability/design (after some initial
hiccups). Gnome releases videos like this that clearly demonstrate what they
are adding:

3.16
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxRLa5hTGkg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxRLa5hTGkg)

3.14
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7p8Prlu3owc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7p8Prlu3owc)

Elementary OS should have similar information for their release.

------
whitlock
There is no upgrade path from OS Luna (previous release) to Freya. Their own
web site states, "elementary OS Luna users should back up their data and
perform a clean install". Given that the operating system is built on Ubuntu I
should be able to upgrade from Luna to Freya without too many issues.

Disappointed? Yes. I wrote this post on my Cr-48 running Elementary OS Luna.
Instead of running Apt to update my laptop now I'm browsing DistroWatch in
another tab to see what else has come out.

~~~
wz1000
You can install Pantheon(the eOS DE) on other distros if you want, though
you'll have to put in the time and effort to get it to work and configure it.

[https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Pantheon](https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Pantheon)

------
Trufa
Only negativity in this thread. You're being offered a desktop environment for
free, and all you can do is point out its problems.

I think it looks pretty slick, and will give it a try, why are people so
nitpicky here?

~~~
tywkeene
It's things like [1] that really irk me. Yes, they're working 'hard', yes they
deserve compensation, no, there isn't any license conflicts (that I'm aware
of) that would make selling eOS illegal, it's the fact that they wrote this
justification to make you feel like a thief.

Really, it's just an ubuntu clone with a pretty osx-like gui. This isn't
really anything amazing or new, and it makes it seem like they're trying to
tap into the elitist osx market. If that is indeed what they want, they should
really check out [2]

So it's not really the software that's bad, really it's all what you can get
on any other distro with a little work, it's their attitude about it.

[1]
[http://blog.elementary.io/post/110645528530/payments](http://blog.elementary.io/post/110645528530/payments)
[2] [http://www.apple.com/jobs/us/](http://www.apple.com/jobs/us/)

~~~
ics
> tap into the elitist osx market

I think it would be more accurate to say that they are trying to _expand the
Linux market_ by wooing those whose main barrier to using Linux is the UI/UX.
Whether or not you find the endeavor to be "noble", the attempt is worth
_something_ to the Linux landscape even if your takeaway is "don't run it
quite like them".

~~~
tywkeene
Well whatever it they're doing guilt tripping people into giving them money
for something that's free everywhere else isn't helping.

~~~
sbuk
Woa. Wait a minute. They're merely asking for a donation, which can be set to
zero. What's the issue with that? This entitled attitude is what irks me about
the OSS movement at large. To a larger extent it puts me and people like me
off of open source. More projects should take this approach. I thought that
it's free as in Liberty, not as in ride. That's what we're constantly told.

~~~
tywkeene
> We want users to understand that they’re pretty much cheating the system
> when they choose not to pay for software.

[http://blog.elementary.io/post/110645528530/payments](http://blog.elementary.io/post/110645528530/payments)

No, their clone can bitrot, they deserve it.

~~~
sbuk
Wow.

------
krick
> open replacement for Windows and OS X

It sounds like promising a lot. So after confirming the suspicion of it not
being something that would actually allow to run some essential software we
still don't have replacements for (AutoCad, Native Instruments stuff, Ableton
Live, etc.), but simply _yet another Linux distro with custom DE_ I wonder if
this lack of information on the website is on purpose.

~~~
wz1000
> So after confirming the suspicion of it not being something that would
> actually allow to run some essential software we still don't have
> replacements for (AutoCad, Native Instruments stuff, Ableton Live, etc.),
> but simply yet another Linux distro with custom DE

What? You actually expected somebody to come up with a whole new OS that runs
software written for another _proprietary_ , closed source OS?

eOS is a replacement for those users who want to browse the web, read email,
watch videos and look at photographs. These people are its target demographic,
not professionals who rely on specialized software to do their job.

~~~
krick
You might want to pay attention to the word "confirming" so you would feel
more relaxed about other's expectations.

> eOS is a replacement for those <..>

I would argue that for that matter it isn't a "replacement" whatsoever. If you
are somebody capable of suddenly finding eOS on the internet and understanding
what this thing actually is — there's a ton of "fast and open replacements"
for you already. (Except, well, they are not "replacements" because they do
not fulfill everything you might want to do with mentioned operating systems.
But whatever.) If not — you don't even really care if you "pay" for your OS,
because you're using the one that came pre-installed on your laptop, without
thinking much how much money you spend on the processor, on the RAM, on the
OS… it's just a "computer", you paid what you were asked for that. Nd if you
would, it doesn't matter because, well, why would it matter if you want to use
something you don't event know it exists?

------
gpmcadam
For those wanting a little more substance, here's the blog post announcing
Freya:

[http://blog.elementary.io/post/116134677986/freya-is-
here](http://blog.elementary.io/post/116134677986/freya-is-here)

------
djhworld
Some really vindictive and nasty comments on here, it's just a linux distro!

One thing that concerns me is the upgrade path, it mentions in their docs that
if you are using a previous version of the OS, you need to back up your data
and reinstall.

------
amk_
This is the distro GNU/Linux needed in 2009. I used to be a big fan, but these
days I can't help but feel they are off the mark by focusing on so heavily on
creating a "beautiful" 00's desktop environment when the rest of the world has
moved on to new form factors, touch screens, tight coupling with cloud
services, and automatic backup and recovery options.

That said, I do like the enhancements they have made to some of the 'classic'
native apps (Geary is a great email client, Maya calendar works well, and I
really like the shell history search baked into the Pantheon Terminal UI).
Here's to hoping this release forms the foundation that allows them to tackle
some of the sticking points above in the future.

~~~
Brakenshire
I haven't used it yet, but I think this will have greater integration with
online accounts, a single place to enter email accounts, calendar accounts etc
which works across the system and so on.

I'm not sure about touch screens, I think most people view them as optional
extras. And although of course people are shifting towards other form factors,
huge numbers still use a desktop or laptop, and have no expectation of
convergence between the devices.

I agree about automatic backup. I actually wonder whether that might be a
route towards monetization which would be more palatable to the general
community - an edition which is provided free with donations as is, and an
edition which has automatic cloud backup built in, along with integration with
Android and iOS devices for things like photos.

------
GoatXYZ
Does anyone else see a problem that they want you to input all your CC details
but does not have HTTPS on by default?

~~~
machbio
thats handled by stripe..

~~~
evanrelf
It doesn't matter who it's handled by, the fact is that credit card numbers
are being transferred over regular, non-encrypted HTTP.

~~~
imron
Actually, it does matter.

The webpage might be http, but the Stripe Javascript library connects to
Stripe's servers over _https_.

The website never sees your card number and your card number and info is never
transmitted over a non-encrypted connection.

~~~
Titanous
Since the page is loaded over plaintext, there's no easy way for a normal user
to know that the credit card isn't being intercepted by a malicious script.
It's not safe to serve a payment page over plaintext HTTP, even if it POSTs to
a HTTPS endpoint as it could be modified in transit.

Stripe explains that TLS is required in their docs:
[https://stripe.com/help/ssl](https://stripe.com/help/ssl)

~~~
imron
If you read a bit further, the Stripe documentation explains that it is
recommended, but not required.

You can make live transactions just fine from a regular HTTP page - whether
that's a good idea or not is another issue, but making Stripe payments from an
HTTPS payment page is not _required_ from an API point of view.

~~~
Titanous
They explain use cases for testing without HTTPS, but make it clear that TLS
is required for production use.

~~~
imron
Required in the 'it's a good idea because it will make the web more secure and
make your customers trust you' sense, not required in the sense that it's
something the API enforces.

------
nodesocket
Refreshing to see somebody attacking the consumer operating system market. The
UX and design looks super clean.

------
tywkeene
I can plainly see the backlash they got from that arrogant blog post about
'making you not pay for the download of our ubuntu clone we slapped a pretty
ui on' didn't do much at all.

~~~
sbuk
You are relatively new here, but you should've seen this. Please read it.
[http://blog.ycombinator.com/new-hacker-news-
guideline](http://blog.ycombinator.com/new-hacker-news-guideline)

~~~
morbius
This is a red herring -- the OP's post didn't say anything that was overly or
gratuitously negative, at least not compared to many of the other comments on
this thread. It's very true that saying that users are 'cheating the system'
when they expect a libre product to be provided to them free of charge when
the developers of said product themselves have added little more than a glossy
sheen upon _years_ of blood, sweat, and tears is an arrogant thing to say.
Modifying GNU/Linux isn't new and it doesn't give you the right to say such
outlandish things in defence of your own project.

~~~
sbuk
You are welcome to download the source code to Elementary OS for free.
Whichever way you frame your "think of the children" logic, the team at eOS
are doing things the right way. The gripe here seems to be that they are
monetising. Free as in liberty, not as in beer. There is _nothing_ in any
version of the GPL that says money may not be charged for compiled binaries.
From the debian.org site, on whose shoulders eOS is ultimately standing;

 _" Many people new to free software find themselves confused because the word
"free" in the term "free software" is not used the way they expect. To them
free means "at no cost". An English dictionary lists almost twenty different
meanings for "free". Only one of them is "at no cost". The rest refer to
liberty and lack of constraint. When we speak of Free Software, we mean
freedom, not price."_

Canonical ask for donations on the download page too. The BSDs have donation
drives. eOS are monetising in a different way. I have not seen the "cheating
the system" comment/article and if they did say it, it was wrong. That said,
it isn't there now.

The "little more than a glossy sheen" remark is off too. They are considering
usability and are adding to the community. But hey, pretty doesn't belong in
Linux does it? This attitude stinks and is largely why designers won't engage
with the community, that and this self righteousness that pervades.

------
dmix
Just noticed that Elementary OS iso doesn't download using HTTPS because they
use sourceforge:

[https://imgur.com/ZsnQI6e](https://imgur.com/ZsnQI6e)

------
twvance
I am loving it so far! I'm really disappointed with some of the ridiculous
accusations like donations not being secure.

------
donatj
Ooh, super excited. Elementary gave a new life to my old black macbook.

------
deevus
My 67 y/o mother is using Elementary OS on a refurbished Toshiba L50D and she
loves it.

------
cubano
Overall; disappointing.

I am looking for a lightweight linux OS for some old laptops I am refurbishing
and giving away to homeless people, so I was interested in this.

The price thing threw me for a moment...paying for software without knowing
its value?

I did the $0 hack and downloaded the iso. Stuck the USB in my worse-case
system (totally broken screen, low memory etc) hooked to an external monitor,
and...

Nothing, except for a screen full of mountains, which was odd because every
other lightweight distro I've tried worked fine.

I think maybe it detected two monitors and used the external one without the
taskbar, but I couldn't really tell. The OS definitely loaded as I tried to
log off and the screen for that popped up.

An OS targeting low-end machines should definitely default to dupe-ing the
display on boot.

[edit] ok...can someone clue me into what I've done wrong with the explanation
of my experience with trying to use it?

------
hippich
Did anyone try it on recent macbookpro? I have one somewhere I am not using,
because i did not like how kde/gnome shell looked on retina screen, and wonder
if eOS solved this problem.

~~~
thoreauway
If you have a MBP Retina you're not using, maybe I can use it? :)

~~~
hippich
company laptop. if it would be mine - i would just sell it :)

------
vivab0rg
Just donated 0.04201 BTC (USD 10) and downloading Freya now. I've been using
the previous version for fun and profit on a Mac mini, netbook, notebook and
desktop PC since last year. Very recommended.

------
hanlec
I saw today on HN PapyrOS. Anyone can explain the difference between the two?
(leaving aside that PapyrOS is still unreleased)

~~~
anonbanker
zer0rest, if you can read this, you are hellbanned.

