
Culdesac: Car-free neighborhood built from scratch in Tempe - tyre
https://culdesac.com/
======
slimsag
The title and website headline are misleading, this isn't going to be car-
free, it's going to be _no privately owned cars_.

> We’re bringing together services like ridesharing, bikes and scooters, and
> same-day grocery delivery, so zero private cars means zero hassle.

Here's why this matters from someone who lives here: 4 months out of the year
Tempe's average temperature is above 99F. This means one of the following:

1\. Residents will heavily use ride sharing and delivery during the summer,
just "in place of" owning a car.

2\. Culdesac will install a ridiculous amount of outdoor cooling for its
residents, one might imagine this will require a fair amount of water.

Don't get me wrong, this is a cool idea, but is Tempe the right place to do
it?

There are many options like semi-underground homes that could have been
trialed here which would have fit the local climate; but they aren't doing
that. Seems like they are trying to create a one-size-fits-all solution which
IMO will not work outside of California.

~~~
noobermin
Not quite 99F (which is like 37C) but Singapore is VERY humid compared year
round (as opposed to 4 months) of ~90 F (32 C). On many days I've seen "feels
like 39 C" on google weather. Despite all that, car ownership is 12 per 100
people. People rely heavily on public transit, which is air conditioned (AC
seems to be their sin, but it's definitely more efficient than AC in every car
on top of burning gas to get it to move around).

I think as you allow as a possibility in the end of your reply, it's not like
it can't work, but non-ebikes and scooters might become a bit much for some
people unless there's copious cover.

~~~
jdnenej
Riding an ebike in 39c is uncomfortable but not unthinkable. I do it semi
regularly. If your trip is >10km it's not that bad at all. You will probably
have to shower when you get home but it's still better than owning a car.

~~~
avar
Being on a modern E-Bike in 39C is definitely way more comfortable than
walking. You can adjust the power settings so you barely have to touch the
pedals to move, it's less effort than walking, and you'll be traveling at up
to 25 km/h so you'll get some air cooling you wouldn't get if you were just
walking.

I've ridden mine in up to 35C and it's like stepping into an oasis compared to
standing still in that temperature, more so if you wear clothing like loose
fitting cotton clothing that benefits from the increased airflow.

~~~
learc83
>so you'll get some air cooling you wouldn't get if you were just walking.

39C is well above skin temperature so you're only going to get evaporative
cooling and the effectiveness of that depends on humidity. It's possible the
heating effect of the hot air blowing over your skin overwhelms the
evaporative cooling and you are actually getting net warming.

Even if the humidity is low if you're not already drenched in sweet, it's
going to feel awful.

------
jmpman
As a resident of Phoenix, I can see this working 9 months out of the year.
But, June can reach 120f, and I’m cursing just by the time I walk from the
grocery story through the parking lot to my car. July and August have random
monsoons which aren’t navigable on scooter or bike.

If you added golf cart paths, the community becomes much more attractive. I’d
take a golf cart 1/4 mile to an air conditioned bus stop/ride share stand.

Notice that this arrangement is quite unlivable for people with babies.
Walking a child in a stroller 1/4 mile in 120f, to meet a ride share.... with
what car seat? It would take any affluent new parents just a month before they
nope’d out of that.

~~~
chrisseaton
Why are people living there if they can't even step outside an air-conditioned
environment for two minutes? Might as well be living on the moon in a pod at
that point.

~~~
mattmar96
As someone who used to live in the Phoenix climate, and now lives in one of
the furthest north cities in the US:

The middle of winter here is much more 'moon-like' than the middle of summer
ever was in Phoenix. I basically have to don a space suit to go out in below 0
weather!

~~~
nkrisc
Well the highest temperatures in Tempe in the summer are closer to the highest
temperatures on the lunar surface during the lunar day than the lowest
temperatures in the Northern US winters are to the lowest temperatures on the
lunar surface during the lunar night.

So depending on how you slice it, Tempe might in fact be more moon-like.

------
disillusioned
This is... ambitious. Very ambitious. Tempe is not a pedestrian mecca. And
while it's nice that they're planning on bringing in some retail and grocery
and entertainment options into the community itself, people obviously want
variety and light rail only gets you so far here.

They're apparently intending to supplement this with car sharing spaces, which
might help, and if you _work_ along light rail, this might be doable. They
also mention they'll still have parking spaces for guests and such, so that
means, ostensibly, they'll need to police them? Or just because they're not
reserving spaces for residents, the demand will always outstrip the supply.

Either way, while I agree that transitioning away from dependence on
individual automobiles is a noble effort, this concept has its work cut out
for itself here. That being said, I have several friends who go car-free here,
so...

~~~
jessriedel
What's wrong with just charging market rate for parking and road usage, i.e.,
just enough to so that there's always a few free parking spots and traffic
flows at capacity?

~~~
novok
That involves city law, and it's political suicide to do it everywhere, so it
doesn't happen. You need bootstrap efforts like this so people can know what
the alternative is like.

~~~
TulliusCicero
Why would it involve city law to charge market rate for parking at this
particular development?

~~~
novok
Not at the particular development, but everywhere in the city, which is what I
think he was implying.

Imagine that the city started charging for the 'free parking' everywhere,
either through permit schemes or parking meters, created photo enforced no
stop tolling for major highways and busy commuting corridors and reduced
property taxes w/ low income exemptions for the new driving fees.

You would get a revolt even with the tax reductions.

Small localized new greenfield experiments like this is not political suicide
for a city to approve.

~~~
jessriedel
> Not at the particular development, but everywhere in the city, which is what
> I think he was implying.

That's not what I was implying.

------
phnofive
A more terse mission statement from a linked job posting:

“Culdesac's mission is to build cities for people, not cars. We're the first
post-car real estate developer, and our goal is to build the first car-free
city in the US. We're starting with the first car-free neighborhood built from
scratch - that's Culdesac Tempe, a 1000-person neighborhood that opens Fall
2020.”

So, like an apartment building, but horizontal?

~~~
seltzered_
To get a rough comparison in context, a co-housing development in a suburban
area (a mix of three-story flats, townhomes, and a common house) ranges from
9-44 households (so 50-80 peopl) over 2-4 acres arranged in a more cul-de-sac
feel (buildings/etc center around a common walking area). So, my first take on
this is like having ~10 cohousing communities + some businesses

From another article:
[https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/tempe/2019/11/19/...](https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/tempe/2019/11/19/culdesac-
tempe-apartment-complex-wont-offer-residential-parking/4191470002/) :

"which will be on 16 acres near Apache Boulevard and River Road" ...okay, so
roughly in line with what I was thinking, though even more dense.
[https://goo.gl/maps/yDu9Zt96GKAi4KfR8](https://goo.gl/maps/yDu9Zt96GKAi4KfR8)
is the location. Judging from the satellite view it looks like it'll be spread
across the four areas around that block (with some of the old existing
structures getting torn down). If you've never visited Tempe, there's been a
lot of recent new downtown development ~3 miles west of this location.

"The project falls within one of Tempe's opportunity zones, which could allow
investors to take advantage of federal tax breaks." ...Interesting, the
deadline for these projects (i.e. for investors to fund them and get a capital
gains deduction) to get funding into a QOF-registered LLC working in a
Qualified Opportunity Zone is 12-31-2019 from my understanding, so that's why
it's happening now.

"An apartment development with no parking for its expected 1,000 residents..."
This is where I'm a bit questioning on whether this will really be a place one
wants to live in over the long run. It seems like solely a large distributed
apartment complex rather than a community/neighborhood with stakeholdership.

~~~
phnofive
Maybe a people mover or a monorail, since an elevator won’t be practical :)

------
eddieh
I sold my car years ago and it is one of the most liberating things I've ever
done. Yes, I live in a posh metropolitan area that makes it unnecessary to own
a car and yes my housing is a bit more expensive, but I'm happier and have way
more free time. But I have to say, Tempe isn't a place I'd want to walk around
most months of the year, so unless this is high-rises, low-rises, skybridges,
and tunnels, no way would I be on onboard.

~~~
anderspitman
Buying a car after not having one the year I lived in San Francisco was one of
the most liberating things I've ever done.

~~~
mixmastamyk
You don’t own a car, a car owns you.

~~~
Cougher
Ok, I'll bite. How does my car own me?

~~~
philshem
Owning a car creates its own demand that otherwise wouldn’t exist.

e.g. choosing suburbs to simplify car ownership, and then relying on the car
every day.

~~~
falcolas
Choosing not to own a car creates its own demands (on your time, your comfort,
your freedom).

Anecdote: my brother-inlaw lives in Chicago (one of the places in the US where
not owning a car is quite practical), and purchased a car. Why? Because he
attempted to do a home renovation himself over the course of a winter without
one. Hauling around tools, materials, and himself on a bike in snow and slush
was not something he ever wanted to repeat.

~~~
dangus
Even something simple like grocery shopping is a pain without a car. And
delivery services (someone else’s car) or a nearly daily shopping trip are the
only alternatives.

Plus, Chicago is a place where it’s far easier to be car free if you’re
wealthy. The north side is where most of the density is, and the highest real
estate prices.

I judge Chicago (minus the extensive suburbs) as more of a one car per family
situation. Which is better than most of America but not car free.

In Tempe Arizona, this will never work.

~~~
mixmastamyk
Grocery carts are a thing..

------
everyone
"We’ve pulled out the parking lots to make room for acres of greenspace,
friendly courtyards"

Having the stuff they're talking about is commonplace in some countries (eg.
Netherlands, Denmark).. but for the services, trains etc. to work, the whole
urban area needs the right (high enough) density. I'd like to see a plan of
this.. The quoted sentence does not inspire confidence in me.

Also, just for example Amsterdam is uniformly medium density until you reach
the edge of the city where it immediately turns to farmland. There is no
useless low density suburban sprawl, in which services cannot function
(because there would not be enough people living in its catchment area)

------
BrianHenryIE
People underestimate their ability to live car-free.

I have never learned to drive (35). As a California resident, I've only been
in a car twice in the past three months. From January through April, I wasn't
in a car whatsoever for 3.5 months.

~"The only problems cars solve are problems cars cause."

~~~
kungtotte
People also overestimate other people's ability to live car free.

I have 40 kilometers to work and bus density here is never more than once an
hour. If I want to be at work on time I have to leave on the last bus the day
before work, or I'd have to be late every morning. Even in that case of
leaving the same day and accepting being late to work I'd be away from home
for 14 hours at minimum.

I have 10 kilometres to the nearest grocery store, and like I said bus density
is not great. Even if I planned to do all my shopping on days of I'd be away
from home for three hours at minimum, instead of a round-trip time of around
an hour by car.

That's just for easily planned daily things. Doctor, dentist, bank, etc?
Forget about it.

Not everyone lives in a place where being car-free is an easy choice.

~~~
carlob
But don't you think that living in a place that requires you to commute for so
long is a situation you would not be in to begin with if cars were not an
option? And I don't mean it just as a personal choice but as a urban planning
strategy.

It seems to me a bit of a chicken and egg problem.

~~~
falcolas
The difference in living costs of having your home close to work is often
ignored. It’s frequently cheaper to pay for the car, gas, and maintenance than
it is to live that 40km closer.

Not to mention, there are other things, such as green spaces, good schools,
and work for spouses, which make living “closer to work” impractical.

~~~
slfnflctd
I think you nailed the most fundamental economic forces at work here. The
total costs of operating a household - including opportunity costs - will keep
pushing people into situations where a long commute is unavoidable.

The only way to green that up in the long run (besides carpooling), I suppose,
is doing something crazy like making cars accessible to everyone that run on
sunlight and last a million miles.

------
ranDOMscripts
AKA off campus dorms. This isn't targeting the urban professional, it's for
those who want to continue the dormie lifestyle. One of the biggest
universities in the country is just a couple stops away on the light rail.

~~~
rblatz
Bingo, when I first moved out here I lived a couple blocks west of this place.
It was 70% college kids. They also have a massive park and ride garage there,
so I think I know where all those car free people will stash their cars.

------
BlameKaneda
Two things:

1\. Here's some sample temperature data for Tempe:
[https://www.usclimatedata.com/climate/tempe/arizona/united-s...](https://www.usclimatedata.com/climate/tempe/arizona/united-
states/usaz0233) If I leave my house in 90+ degree heat to go somewhere that's
10+ minutes away, I'd much rather be in an air conditioned car. With that
being said, I could probably adjust to the heat and would be fine.

2\. How would I travel from Tempe to the outside? Would I walk to a location
where my car's stored (e.g. outside Tempe) or would I take public
transportation?

------
Cougher
If only someone could design some sort of self-balancing, two-wheeled scooter
that people could use to get around, entire cities could be designed without
cars!

~~~
Jamwinner
I know, like a bike with a motor and forks with rake that promote
autobalance... wait, we just reinvented scooters and motorcycles.

------
andrewfromx
mentioned yesterday in [https://www.wsj.com/articles/new-arizona-development-
bans-re...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/new-arizona-development-bans-
residents-from-bringing-cars-11574164801) and
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21578165](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21578165)

------
frereubu
Slightly OT - it has always amused me that “cul-de-sac”, commonly used in the
UK to denote a street with a dead end, literally translates from the French as
“arse of bag”, which I guess is accurate in terms of its shape, but I’m sure
many people think of it as a rather fancy name because it’s French without
knowing the meaning.

------
vhodges
Perhaps of some relevance:
[http://www.fusedgrid.ca/fusedgrid.php](http://www.fusedgrid.ca/fusedgrid.php)

------
notatoad
Is there any actual information about this neighbourhood available? The linked
website seems to only be an email collection form, as far as i can tell

------
dekken_
Cul is almost a pejorative for sex in France

so it means

sex in a bag

~~~
maximegarcia
No, cul means ass.

No, cul de sac means dead end (as in a road that ends)

~~~
dekken_
Yes, ass can mean sex

> I got some ass last night

Try going on Tinder in Paris.

*Edit: I never stated it didn't also mean "dead end"

------
wiradikusuma
Is there any photos? I'm curious how they design it.

------
itronitron
should be nominated for a PWOTY, Pretentious Website of the Year award

------
product50
Car free often means family free. See that there are no kids in their
illustrations but 2 dogs and a bunch of young people?

People need to wake up to the reality that kids demand cars. How will school
pick up and drop offs work? How will you take your kid to lessons? What about
that play date you setup? What about going to school at your kids school for
an early pickup 4p from office?

You can make it work without cars if you are fit, are lucky to have your
office and kids' school in the city near to each other - but often "time" is a
critical factor and you need the flexibility that a car offers.

~~~
ehnto
> People need to wake up to the reality that kids demand cars.

That is ludicrous. We've only had cars for a hundred years.

The fact that it's difficult is BECAUSE we built cities around cars. Schools
normally have districts so that they're nearby to the kids, if your kids
school is in another suburb then frankly that's your poor planning. If you set
up play dates with kids two 'burbs away, again, why did you do that? Places
like Japan have no issues with no or low car families, the kids take public
transport, walk, or take their bikes. You can ride your bike with them or join
them for the train ride if you want to make sure they're safe, but the idea
that kids need to be transported around in cars is ludicrous.

> but often "time" is a critical factor and you need the flexibility that a
> car offers.

Public transport and biking is often faster than cars in denser car centric
cities, and good public transport is on time so you can plan accordingly. Not
all cities have good public transport, I get that, but that's the problem we
need to solve. We've already tried cars, it's not working.

The issue isn't that we need cars, it's that we need a better city built
around moving people without cars. You're looking at the problem in the wrong
direction.

~~~
jdnenej
People in America live in such a bubble and just think that anything that
doesn't work in America can't possibly work at all. A common post on HN goes
along the lines "trains are shit and could never be seriously used. I took a
train once and it was dirty and slow"

~~~
product50
No it is not like that. I know you want to fit things to your narrative but
honestly what we are asking here is to completely redesign cities from ground
up and it is not going to happen anytime soon. Europe works since it has a
huge history to it when cars weren't there and thus a lot of roads/lanes were
built accordingly. To suggest US should do the same seems improbable to me. We
should build for the future vs. the past. So the question I will ask what is
next after cars? My mind goes into ideas such as aerial transport vs.
walking/biking.

Also, I would be very curious how many folks commenting here have kids vs.
single men/women who ride their bikes and hate that they have to share the
road with cars.

~~~
TulliusCicero
> No it is not like that.

Oh, yes it is. I see comments on the internet like, "bike friendly? But what
about kids??" as if kids explode if they get too close to a bike, all the damn
time.

Somewhere in the commenter's mind, they're aware that there are bike friendly
places where people have kids, like the Netherlands, and it works just fine.
But they don't want to admit it, so they pretend they don't know. If you point
it out to them, they'll find whatever the most obvious surface differences are
between that place and where they live and insist this makes it impossible to
draw any lessons.

I have a kid and we live car-free in Munich. We use walking, biking (including
an electric cargo bike), buses, and trains. Works great. I don't dispute that
sometimes it would be nice to have a car for the convenience, for things like
going to Ikea or ski trips, but overall it's worth it for us to avoid the
hassle and expense of car ownership.

On the other hand, I accept that when we move back to the states, unless we're
in NYC we'll probably need a car. Oh well.

~~~
product50
The problem with this line of argument often is that you are transposing
solutions that work elsewhere piecemeal vs. looking at things holistically.
For example, public schools in cities such as SF could be quite far away from
people's homes. And public transport in SF sucks. Likely very few people in
Munich travel to suburbs for work (since many companies in the bay area are
headquartered far away from SF) and there are parents who have no option but
to make that travel happen.

As such, this line of reasoning that if it works in Netherlands will work here
seems vacuous. You need to consider the realities on the ground vs. making one
off statements.

