
Announcement: YC alumni will help us read applications  - pg
We've recruited some YC alumni to help us read applications,
starting with this cycle.  They've agreed to (a) stop reading
any application that seems like it will compete with something
their startup is doing or plans to, and (b) keep stuff in                  
applications confidential.<p>These are people we know and trust, so we doubt there will be any problems.  But since we didn't tell people about this before they 
applied (we are in fact still organizing it), we're giving anyone who wants to the opportunity to unapply.  If you want to have your
application deleted, just email me (pg@ycombinator.com).<p>Also, in case anyone didn't know, the deadline for applying is 
tonight at 10 Pacific.<p>Make sure you actually submit your application, using the 
submit or resubmit button on http://news.ycombinator.com/apply,
or we won't consider it.  (If you don't see a submit/resubmit button on that page, it's been submitted.)  Every cycle a few people         
who probably meant to apply forget to actually submit their
application after editing it.<p>Edit: Since a lot of people seem to be worried about this, the alumni are reading the applications in addition to us, not instead of us.  Our goal is to ensure that we don't overlook promising applications.  If we give an application a low rating but it gets high marks from alumni, we'll give it a second look.
======
tianaco
I feel like this is going to work against me - in a really serious way.

First of all, I really liked knowing that I had a one in three chance of a
woman, Jessica Livingston, reading my application.

I liked how the application felt like a college application; they judge you
based upon your potential and what you've done in your circumstances, not like
an investor who says: "What experience and traction do you have?".

I totally trusted PG, Jessica + TLB to see my potential and tailored my
application to the rubric they stated on the website--looking for outstanding
"outside of the box" people.

Having entrepreneurs, who may not be as used to thinking outside the box of
"who is a good founder?" will be more biased towards founders like themselves
- i.e. male coders.

This comes as a very sad surprise to me. I have a feeling I'm going to be
treated as I usually am by the men in technology - which is an outsider. I
know that there are VERY FEW female YC founders and I know that having male
coders looking at my application is going to totally work against me, if for
no other reason than they don't relate to me.

[edit: I sincerely apologize that my comment has generated so much heat. I
wanted to raise a concern, I'm sorry this got out of hand.]

~~~
tianaco
I know it's verboten to talk about HN on HN, but it's fun clicking refresh and
watching people upvote and downvote my comment. Talking about male prejudice
in the tech community really gets under people's skin, including my cofounder
bravura who said that maybe I shouldn't have posted and rankled people.

~~~
fjabre
Yes, you're correct: people don't like being accused of being prejudice,
especially in a community like this which prides itself on being open minded.

Your gender isn't important here. Whether or not you're an entrepreneur with a
plan, is.

EDIT: This discussion really belongs in another thread.

~~~
tptacek
There's definitely subtle and persistent sexism on HN, but that doesn't make
the original commenter's complaint about the new YC process any more valid. I
agree that filling out a YC application is the least of your real-world
problems.

------
jpwagner
While I personally don't have a problem with this, I can fathom how some
would.

What about (1) announcing who is reading and (2) allowing applicants to
specify who should NOT read their application.

Just a thought, there should probably be some more thought on this kind of
privacy/conflict since they will not be investors and I'm assuming you will
make this standard procedure.

~~~
pg
I'd rather make the system based on trusting people.

Also, paranoia about secrecy is one of our selection criteria. E.g. every
cycle there are a few applications that say they won't tell us any details
about what they're doing without an NDA. We thereupon instantly hit "next."
People who think their startup's success is going to follow from their
immensely valuable secret idea are disproportionately likely to have bad
ideas. I'm guessing it will be similar in this case, and that anyone who would
be freaked out by YC alumni reading their application is probably someone we
wouldn't have funded anyway.

~~~
jpwagner
Well you are ignoring half of the potential problem.

Even smart people have different opinions: what if an applicant thinks someone
you chose to read their application is naive (or worse, an idiot)?

Also seems just plain fair that applicants be aware of their audience.

~~~
abossy
Do you honestly feel PG and co. are incapable of selecting people that aren't
naive nor idiots?

~~~
jpwagner
Not sure if you did it on purpose, but your double negative is the converse of
my sentiment.

Do I think YC is _capable_ of making poor selections?...Absolutely.

~~~
swombat
Capable? sure. Likely? no.

YC makes funding decisions after a few short interviews and an application,
and they seem to do pretty well with those. I would imagine that after working
with some founders for months, they have zero likelihood of selecting a naive
idiot.

------
maxklein
Does YC not run a risk here of falling into a reinforcement loop where each
generation gets more and more "perfect" from the POV of the current
generation, leading to highly specialised but unadaptable individuals a few
generations down the line?

~~~
the_real_r2d2
Adding some randomness could help to avoid over-fitted populations. Then you
could prevent to converge to a sub-optimal state and force the system to look
beyond of what it seems the best.

~~~
bravura
I thought mating was the main cause of genetic diversity, not mutation.

~~~
a-priori
Mutation introduces new alleles, and mating recombines existing alleles. Both
processes increase diversity.

------
adrianwaj
"They've agreed to (a) stop reading any application that seems like it will
compete with something their startup is doing or plans to."

You could have an answer-by-answer reveal button, to see who stops reading and
when. That'd remove the temptation to break this rule. There could be post-
submission round-up by to see if the trust was actually there.

~~~
jwhitlark
Let's not go overboard. I'd much rather pg and co. put their time into
reviewing applications than adding "features" like this. This is, at its
heart, a social problem, not a technical one, and needs to be addressed as
one.

------
davidu
Having graded papers in college and worked with a number of professors, peers
are often a far harsher critic.

Investors also operate in a big picture kind of way and see a horizon that is
far larger than operators tend to see.

It'll be interesting to see how this adds to the decision-making process for
PG. I'd love to see the data (even anonymized) about how the peers review
compare to PG and teams reviews.

~~~
cshimmin
I think there's an inversion of your logic about grading papers when applied
to investing. Usually grades in college operate on a curve; the peers are
harsh because their grade is relative to other students. In this case, it's
ycomb that is putting money on the line. Your peer reviewers have nothing to
lose by dropping your name into the hat.

------
mrduncan
I'm curious about the reasoning for this. Is it purely due to not having the
time to read through all of them as thoroughly as you'd like, or to help make
sure apps don't fall through the cracks (or none of the above)?

~~~
pg
Both; those are the same problem, since the biggest danger of not being able
to read them all thoroughly enough is that a good one slips through the
cracks.

~~~
lloydarmbrust
Will you still be reading all the applications then?

~~~
pg
Yes, YC partners will still read all the applications.

------
matthodan
I'd love for a bunch of the YC founders to review my application-- I feel like
I've spent the last several weeks getting every smart person (including YC
founders) I could find to read my application. Who knows, maybe one of the YC
founders will see something that piques their curiosity. It'd be great if this
process generated constructive feedback or a partnership opportunity.

A minute or two of mind share from YC founders sounds better to me than 30
seconds from the YC partners.

------
fjabre
Even though fears of a pre-facebook Zuckerberg reading your ideas about a new
social networking site are valid it seems to me that this more of an exception
than a rule.. but it does seem like a valid concern..

The only other thing I would add is that given the rising popularity of YC it
seems only natural that PG and friends would like some qualified help.

At any rate, were someone to actually successfully steal your idea, this
person would probably be found out and disowned by the community and YC. In
other words, there is plenty of incentive for people _not_ to steal.

------
bastian
This is a brilliant decision. I attended Startup School this weekend, and used
the event and the surrounding parties to pitch our idea to at least 10+
Y-Combinator startups. Every time i pitched our company i learned something
new and got great feedback on how to pitch it better next time. Startups that
are concerned about this, should realise that to be accepted to Y-Combinator
is not the goal of your startup. It is more than everything else a great test
for yourself. Are you able to explain your idea in a couple of sentences, do
you have a great founding team, is there really a market for what you are
building? Trust me, when i remind you that making your company succeed is much
harder than filling out the Y-Combinator application form.

Having other startups validating your idea is a great way to actually proof
your team, competence and idea. We're based in London and despite the fact
that we were lucky enough to know a couple of YC startups, that gave us great
feedback on our application, we're thrilled to know that our idea, our team
and our startup will be reviewed by a couple of other great YC startups.

Mark Zuckerberg, probably put it best during his Startup School talk. He told
the audience that instead of going for the universities that really wanted to
use Facebook, they rolled out Facebook to the universities that seemed the
least interested in it. I think this is a brilliant move to test your product.
The same applies here.

Good luck to everyone!

~~~
JLaramie
Great post, Bastian.

~~~
bastian
I like your ADstruct concept. Having worked with a couple of out of home media
companies, i feel there is definitely space for innovation. If you don't have
contacts to European media buyers, fell free to dope me a line.

~~~
JLaramie
Hey Bastian - I'd love to talk. My email is john@adstruc.com

------
staunch
Maybe there's a way a limited version of the app could be viewable by the
alumni, and only the complete viewable by the YC partners?

~~~
lloydarmbrust
That seems like over optimizing. Setting up a limited app would probably take
longer than just having the four YC people read all the apps themselves.

~~~
staunch
A few of the application's questions could be designated alumni-readable and
marked as such.

------
jnaut
Well, this seems like an 11th hour announcement, many of the applicants might
not be watching HN at the moment and may not be able to exercise their right
to "unapply" before the deadline.

But those are problems for the fainthearts who get deterred with this kinda
announcement.

For the rest of the bravehearts its 'ok', they should feel like they are at
day 1 on the market and its all bare now. Just that they should gear up for a
much quicker launch in case of a possible rejection, which they anywayz should
be - "hope for the best and be prepared for the rest/worst".

Let's face it, trustworthiness, bias, plagiarism and wisdom are all human
traits.

@PG: Just a thought from a novice. This kinda late announcements/disclosure
may taint YC's image like those " __conditions apply" advertisements. An
announcement early on would be better. I hope you are not doing this
intentionally as a first filter for the applicants and hence reduce the load
of applications automatically.

------
yurisagalov
I think it would be nice/fair to know how much input the Alumni will actually
have. Do they give you summaries? recommendations? Do they have the power to
completely block applications?

~~~
pg
The goal is to use the alumni as a second set of eyes. The way the software
currently works, the alumni say either that they think we should accept an
application, or that we shouldn't. So if we notice we're giving a bad rating
to an application multiple alumni think we should accept, we'll take a second
look, and vice versa.

~~~
rooshdi
The more sets of eyes the better. Y Combinator is looking for the best
startups which fit their criteria, and any review system which results in them
funding a higher ratio of startups that benefit real users in the long-term is
all that really matters. Lets keep in mind the actual end-users in all of
this. If it's not something people want, then it shouldn't have been funded in
the first place.

------
nuweborder
I too could see how some applicants would feel uneasy about this decision.
Considering these are smart and savvy founders that are not investors in the
applicants. Good thing YC is offering the "unapply" option for applicants. For
example, the founders of <http://www.thesixtyone.com>, if they so happen to
read my application, a lightbulb may go off in their heads. But as YC has
stated, they have agreed to stop reading apps if there is competition. And
will keep confidential. Therefore, I will be keeping my application entered.
No guts, no glory. Could be looked at as a greater risk has been entered into
the equation. But it could actually be a positive thing. I will be taking my
chances in aspirations for a strong future partnership with YC.

~~~
SwellJoe
_For example, the founders of<http://www.thesixtyone.com>, if they so happen
to read my application, a lightbulb may go off in their heads._

Take additional comfort in the knowledge that YC teams are small, and have far
more ideas and light bulbs going off in their heads than they have time to
implement. Ideas are not in short supply. Time to implement, ability to
execute well, ability to connect with markets, and the focus to deliver a
compelling product that makes peoples lives better in some small way in a
reasonable time frame are. So, even if your idea is brilliant and new, and
even if it _would_ help thesixtyone, and even _if_ they saw your application,
it's unlikely they would recognize it as a "killer feature" and it's even more
unlikely they would have time from their existing product development schedule
(which they probably also believe has some "killer features" on it) to
implement it in an effective manner.

~~~
nuweborder
Thanks for the encouragement. We will see the outcome in 6 days. Im confident
in my statup, and hopefully YC will see the opportunity as well. We are
working hard and creating something special.

------
p01nd3xt3r
This makes me not want to apply; I guess I am just one of those people with
bad ideas that YC would not have wanted to fund anyway.

~~~
p01nd3xt3r
I know this is not a popular opinion its really how I feel. I know lots of
geeks and am very familiar with geek / startup culture. One of the coolest
things about YC is the fact that there is so much input / guidance from PG.
This decision seems like a shift away from that and toward more of a judged by
peers model IMHO.

------
btilly
To me the question boils down to, "Do you trust YC to have the right people
reading your application to make a good decision?" I know that they have high
enough volume that it makes no sense for pg to make every decision personally.

What I just read is, "They have found a way to scale higher and while sticking
to high quality people who have direct experience with what you want to do."

That makes the answer to the first question a "Yes". :-)

~~~
mikegioia
I think this sums it up best. It comes down to trust and you either trust YC
or not. If anything, this is a good litmus test for them.

------
mikefrancis
I'm not so concerned about opening up the reviews to trusted others (after
all, if an application is successful it is open to peer review and scrutiny
anyway), but I do have a question regarding 'early' submissions (which are
described as preferable).

Do early submissions get reviewed BEFORE the actual closing date? That's the
clear implication from what I've read elsewhere on this thread, because it's
stated "there is more time to review early applications"

In my case, I submitted (initially) soon after the applications were opened,
and have been editing, proof reading, clarifying generally and improving on
it, and re-submitting right up to this evening - the evening of the closing
date. So there are quite possibly at least 30 different iterations of my
application. My first submission was crude, but early. My final submission is
probably a factor of 10X better, but two hours before the deadline.

So without giving too much away YC, which iteration gets reviewed and when,
and how do you know when the submission is final, if you review before the
close date?

------
gills
Cool.

It seems that the kind of folks who are scared off by this might be doomed
anyway. If you're going to be successful, then at some point you've got to
take up the attitude that you're going to eat the competition's lunch - even
if they know what you're doing. Because you're just that good.

Good luck.

(Have not applied. Am not applying. Just a member of the peanut gallery.)

------
JoeAltmaier
More eyes means a more reliable result, so assuming I'm worth funding, then
this can only benefit me.

------
jnovek
It may be totally irrational, but my gut reaction is, "Some young founder who
can't think outside of his or her space is going to read our application and
toss it away."

Although I think our company will be massively profitable, our proposal is a
long way from glamorous.

~~~
gruseom
Everyone with worries like this should (re-)read
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=908612>. From that comment, it sounds
like no alumnus/a will have the power to get your application tossed. In fact,
it sounds like the only effect they can have is to get your application a
second look, which is something you should want.

------
ReidReid46
Will this, or the extended application deadline, affect Nov. 5th feedback
date?

~~~
dsil
I'm guessing they're doing this so they'll be able to keep the Nov.5 date,
after seeing a huge increase in the number of apps.

------
dtran
I actually think that this is a great idea on the condition that PG/JL/TLB/RM
still have the majority of the final say. Given the sheer volume of
applications, having more eyes can really only help ensure that the most
promising startups get the attention they deserve. It also sounds like a great
way to pair up new founders with YC alumni who really see the potential in
their startup. I know that my co-founder and I personally think that being
stealth is overrated/stupid and would love to hear what other smart people
think about our idea.

Disclosure appreciated.

------
adw
I've got no stake in any of this at _all_ \- never applied to YC, doubt I ever
will - but something which'd bother me a little: what if a company applied a
while back and hasn't seen this HN thread? You can guarantee that at least one
set of founders is going to be on holiday.

The problem, though, is that I imagine that'd it be really hard, what with the
number of applications there'll be, to individually reach out to applicants
before making their applications available to anyone other than the
partners...

------
dusklight
1\. Is it possible for an application to be rejected after having been read by
just one alumni, and no one else?

2\. Are the readers given a specific list of criteria by which they are
supposed to judge the applications, or is it just basically anything they
want?

3\. Trust is great, but do you have any way to find out if a reader approves
an application because it is from a friend, or if a reader rejects good
applications that are too similar to the application that was submitted by a
friend?

~~~
pg
No, no, and no.

------
vivek_ganesh
Can you tell us, who they are, if their companies are conflicting, we delete
our application.

------
quellhorst
It looks like many people are scared of someone stealing their ideas. Startups
are not a zero sum game, we can all create wealth.

Also, if you are scared someone else will out execute you on your own idea
maybe you need work on your execution and dedication.

------
AmericanOP
I'd like to hear how you went about training them. That alone is interesting.

------
Major_Grooves
This isn't an entirely new thing though is it? I remember some of the YC alum
saying they had actually done some phone interviews of YC applicants.

------
Major_Grooves
although some might consider it positive discrimination, you should really get
involved with an organisation like: <http://www.astia.org/> They have been
great to jlees. In fact she is attending the Silicon Valley event next week.

------
JLaramie
Thanks for the disclosure, Paul. We look forward to you guys checking out our
application for ADstruc!

~~~
jack7890
FYI ADstruc, your website is wrong, you aren't the first marketplace of that
sort. Check out Tapinko.

~~~
tlrobinson
Also, images for all the text? Really?

~~~
JLaramie
We've spent our time focusing on the back end which is building our platform
and obviously less on the website. Regardless, the website will be a wash once
the product goes beta.

