

NYT Skimmer - MrAlmostWrong
http://www.nytimes.com/skimmer/?pagewanted=all#/Top+News

======
schrototo
This is horrible. Why can't I scroll? Why do I have to use the sidebar to go
through the sections? Why do I have to click the tiny arrow thing at the
bottom to get to the next page?

~~~
mrandre
Hi! Andre Behrens, creator of the app here.

You can't scroll because I happen to think scrolling for reading is broken.
Scrolling is a mechanism for micro-managing the position of content at a pixel
level. As a creative producer, when I'm producing creative, I like this a lot.
When I'm reading, I find it borderline exhausting; Scroll, re find position,
think about when it's time to scroll again, do so, re find position. Did I
scroll to far? So Skimmer uses pages whenever it can. You just activate
"next", and there's more to read. "Next." "Next." "Next."

This wouldn't work at all for editing a photo. But if you haven't tried it for
reading longform content, you really ought to try it.

Of course, if you really do like the classic web scrolling approach, you can
just use nytimes.com, and neither I, nor anyone else at the Times would
complain.

~~~
jamesgeck0
There are some usability concerns with your implementation.

1) A 24x20 arrow is a tiny target compared to using a scroll wheel anywhere on
the page. Scroll bars are also an infinitely wide target when the window is
maximized. Fitts' Law and all that.

2) Scrolling requires a lower cognitive load on the user because they don't
have to make a decision about turning a page and having everything they're
looking at vanish. <http://www.useit.com/alertbox/scrolling-attention.html>

3) This one is just a bug. I had to reload Skimmer because the first time it
came up the pages would not turn. The animation would play, then it would jump
back to the first page. Not all the little article squares were loaded, so
that may have had something to do with it. Opera 11.50 on Vista with 80% zoom.

4) Not scrolling, but navigation-related. The site doesn't play nicely with my
back button. I had to click the close button in the upper left corner of the
screen instead of clicking the back button. Confusing.

~~~
isleyaardvark
With your #1, for many people the time to target is instantaneous with a
scroll wheel or trackpad. They just scroll without having to search for a
target. The time to target is essentially zero, so _any_ sort of control on
the page will inevitably be slower.

------
MatthewPhillips
I find these types of sites that break normal browser behavior to be
offensive. Why are developers like this and OnSwipe changing native scrolling
in favor of javascript scrolling? What is the benefit, aside from lag, to
moving sideways? Web pages aren't magazines, and they shouldn't be. I love
javascript but just because something can be done with it, doesn't mean it
should be.

~~~
mrandre
Hi, Andre Behrens, creator of the app.

I would argue it is the web itself that is broken. At the very least, it's an
infinite web, and there's room for an awful lot of stuff in there, even the
parts you don't like or understand.

The advantage of moving sideways is that that's how every reading experience a
user has ever experienced works, outside their computer. More importantly for
us, it's how a newspaper works. The fact that this thing works a lot like a
newspaper and they love it is something our customers literally won't shut up
about.

The simple truth is, the only people I've ever heard complain about the
navigation scheme, scrolling, javascript, etc are on Hacker News.

For instance, what you are calling lag is the animation. Most people find
computer navigation hostile because things move around and they don't know
where they are going.

Animations give their brain time to process that things are changing. Research
over the years suggests that most people think animated transitions are
faster, even if they are technically slower.

In the case of scrolling, I find scrolling long documents a hostile user
interface. It requires a great deal of user interaction and minute control
over position. Pagination simply requires "next", "next", "next". I don't
think every web site should work this way. But for long form content, it works
a treat.

And for the record, I didn't use JS just because I could. I used it because it
helped me solve my design goals.

~~~
Luyt
I think you're still designing for print, not the web.

Your aversion to scrolling seems like a personal preference. Nothing wrong
with that, but it doesn't mean everybody feels that way, or should be denied
scrolling.

In a distant past, books used to be scrolls, too ;-)

~~~
mrandre
In the part of the past where books were scrolls, almost nobody could read,
and most of what was written was data. Interestingly, relatively soon after
the arrival of paginated books, public reading becomes commonplace.

Scrolls are for scribes.

~~~
cema

      relatively soon after the arrival of paginated books, 
      public reading becomes commonplace.
    

Oh no, it was because of the alphabet changed everything. And because some
nations required universal education (technically, first among boys).

Books (in the codex form, versus scrolls) were indeed very helpful in reading,
the way dvd is an improvement over a cassette tape. It made navigation easier
(reading in one case, listening in the other). So your example is indeed
relevant to the point you are making, but not the way you made it. (IMHO.)

------
vlado
Skimmer is there since early 2009
[http://www.google.bg/search?q=skimmer+nyt&hl=bg&clie...](http://www.google.bg/search?q=skimmer+nyt&hl=bg&client=firefox-a&hs=xhf&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-
US%3Aofficial&sa=X&ei=CZUuTufaM9C7hAe8wfwr&ved=0CA4QpwUoBg&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A01.01.2009%2Ccd_max%3A01.03.2009&tbm=)

------
g123g
Would love to read Hacker news in a similar format.

Any suggestions on the best way to read hacker news on iPad? I tried Flipboard
and Feedly but not very happy with them.

~~~
krmmalik
I've had to rely on Flipboard for now i'm afraid (i know you've mentioned it
already). There was the news:yc app, but its iPhone only, so doesnt take
advantage of the iPad screen real estate. I suspect the developer is working
on an iPad version.

------
portman
Not sure what "already did a redesign" means.

This was actually first released in 2009 [1] and then updated mid-year during
2010 [2]. I use it every day, and it has not substantially changed since last
summer.

[1] [http://firstlook.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/18/article-
skimme...](http://firstlook.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/18/article-skimmer-
update-all-the-news/)

[2] [http://mashable.com/2010/12/07/new-york-times-google-
chrome-...](http://mashable.com/2010/12/07/new-york-times-google-chrome-app/)

~~~
someperson
Presumably a response to: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2805658>

I for one would like HN headlines to be clear, concise and include context :P

~~~
a3camero
I'd appreciate it if more submitters would make the first comment more context
on the issue.

------
tezmc
The design is ok, but I don't like the way they've broken usability, standards
and everything else.

I had hoped people would have learned from the Gawker disaster that requiring
javascript to be able to see any content at all is a bad idea. I use the
NoScript plugin in firefox and all I got was a blank screen at first.

~~~
mrandre
Andre Behrens, creator of the app here.

My inbox has been flooded over the years with effusive messages about how much
people like the way this works. The only people I've _ever_ seen complain
about usability are on hacker news.

Skimmer makes extensive use of standard javascript, css3, and HTML5
technologies. So I'm not sure what standards I've broken.

I think the meaning of the Gawker debacle might be open to interpretation
without further data. For one thing, you should know that users with JS
disabled make up a vanishingly small part of nytimes.com's readership.

And since Skimmer has enjoyed a largely enthusiastic response from readers, it
stands to reason that most users are just fine with a js-heavy app. Most of
our readers, anyway.

That said, if you hate this way of doing things, the entirety of nytimes.com
is there for your classic web design enjoyment, and I certainly have no
problem with your continuing to use it.

I would say maybe try the app for a while before you decide. Try the different
layouts. Use the arrow keys. Try it on an iPad.

~~~
simcop2387
The standard you've broken is to not have some kind of message for those that
don't have javascript on. even having a "Please enable javascript to use
Skimmer" would be a huge boon to everyone in that boat.

~~~
mrandre
It's a very very small boat with only nerds in it.

~~~
simcop2387
I have been trying out Skimmer and do thing it is certainly a very interesting
way to lay things out and get at the news. I have not decided my full opinion
on it yet.

However, this unprofessional response from you does make me wary of it. A
personal attack like this I feel was entirely uncalled for.

Second, I think this boat may be larger than you believe it to be. According
to Mozilla[1], there's nearly 2 million potential browsers out there with some
form of JavaScript filtering on by default. This is calculated from the number
of browsers checking for updates, not from the download statistics (88 million
at current writing). While other browsers[2][3] do not boast this large of a
user base they are continuing to grow (3000 a week for chrome).

[1]: [https://addons.mozilla.org/en-
US/firefox/search/?q=noscript&...](https://addons.mozilla.org/en-
US/firefox/search/?q=noscript&cat=all&x=0&y=0) [2]:
[https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/odjhifogjcknibkahl...](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/odjhifogjcknibkahlpidmdajjpkkcfn)
[3]:
[https://addons.opera.com/addons/extensions/details/notscript...](https://addons.opera.com/addons/extensions/details/notscripts/1.1.0/?display=en)

------
princeverma
I think NYT launched it as Google Chrome app.

------
codeodor
I see a blank white page with 3 links in the bottom right corner that appear
to do nothing, and a lone copyright symbol in the bottom left corner.

Using Google Chrome 12.0.742.122 on Mac OS 10.6

------
varjag
I don't like that browser back button has no effect.

~~~
marknutter
That's easy enough to fix.

------
hammock
This is awesome! Finally something online that gives me an experience which is
close to reading an actual physical paper. Except this is a little more
convenient because everything is on one page, no awkward folding or anything.

I have been waiting for this a long time, how come periodicals haven't done
this before? (Or have they?)

------
marknel
This redesign is an interesting step forward for a site who's future you would
expect to be based primarily in the tablet scene. After a few moments, I found
it particularly easy to use, however I believe integration with scrolling if
they're going to use left-right, then let the user drag the page etc.

------
majmun
This is more than that other guy (in other HN topic) was hoping for. it even
lets him to change layout in click of a mouse as he see fit. as opposed to
spending many hours on desining new layouts and templates like he did.

they did new things but didn't broke old things. i like that approach better

~~~
prawn
I assumed the other guy was angling for a job somewhere rather than trying to
get himself a better NY Times layout.

------
obtino
It seems to be more suited to tablet use.

------
joeybaker
Skimmer is an experiment that simply re-packaged the content of the times.
There are lots of problems with contemporary news design that skimmer didn't
even try to address:

• The article is a fundamentally bad unit of news for the internet.
[http://www.buzzmachine.com/2011/05/28/the-article-as-
luxury-...](http://www.buzzmachine.com/2011/05/28/the-article-as-luxury-or-
byproduct/)

• Customization is one thing, but being able to choose from a dozen different
layouts is a sign that none of them are likely right. Good design is about
what's left out, not overflowing options.

• The complete lack of social/comments/human interaction is distrubing

------
rgarcia
For those curious about the tech behind this: [http://www.quora.com/What-is-
the-technology-behind-the-New-Y...](http://www.quora.com/What-is-the-
technology-behind-the-New-York-Times-HTML5-Chrome-app)

------
FooBarWidget
It crashes my Android browser.

~~~
AshMokhberi
same here, pretty bad.

------
damoncali
Am I the only one who can't read this? I find it almost painful to move my
eyes from one headline to the next - there is nothing for my mind to anchor
to. As a result, I'm just staring blankly at the screen.

------
aridiculous
I like the interaction, my problem is with layout. There's information
overload and lack of hierarchy (at least on the default layout theme). The
typographic hierarchy is fantastic, but the squared grid is too standardized
to communicate meaning/importance. The eye wants to be guided, not given a ton
of equally-sized boxes.

newsmap.jp understands this principle and is a much better design. If only you
could combine the hierarchy of newsmap with the typography, aesthetic, and
interaction of the NYT skimmer...

~~~
mrandre
Go to "layout" and try something like the Overview skin. Is that more what
you're looking for?

------
nona
Doesn't seem to work on Epiphany 3.0.4 - but I like it in Firefox.

I don't mind the lack of scrolling, but it would be nice if the mousewheel
event was used for page flipping.

------
nodata
I find the right-scrolling thing unintuitive. Nice though.

~~~
joelanman
from playing with it on my ipad I think it's optimised for tablets, where it's
easy to move left and right with a swipe.

------
famedriver
I love experiments like this. We can all learn alot. But the most import thing
to take away is that there is no one way an article or website has to be
presented.

The articles do remind me a bit of the IHT (International Herald Tribune) from
10 years ago.

<http://www.smokinggun.com/images/pages/page_22.swf> (last slide)

------
gary4gar
This look exactly similar to their Chrome App:
<http://www.nytimes.com/chrome/>

------
creativityhurts
-1. This is not a redesign, it's their Chrome app.

~~~
jamesbritt
Somewhat amusingly it crashes the Chrome browser on my G2.

~~~
mrandre
FWIW, your G2 is not running the Chrome browser. There is almost no relation
between Chrome browser and the Android browser, save WebKit. This is puzzling,
but true. And unfortunately, the Android browser just isn't up to snuff yet.

~~~
jamesbritt
Well, shit.

At least that explains assorted dopey behavior.

------
Duckpaddle2
Yea well look at this, execution is everything (choose smaller font in upper
right on a 1680 by 1050 res monitor)
[http://www.nytimes.com/skimmer/?pagewanted=all#/Top+News//6t...](http://www.nytimes.com/skimmer/?pagewanted=all#/Top+News//6thfloor.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/26/who-
made-that-penny/)

~~~
e_proxus
They scale that really beautiful. Try resizing the page.

~~~
Duckpaddle2
On my Firefox at that resolution the last line of the quoted text is
guillotined. My feeling is the text should display without requiring the user
to do anything. I am sure this is a minor bug, but my experience is the fix
sometimes is slow and cumbersome.

------
mojuba
Why is it asking access to my local file system (Safari/OS X)? And if I say No
the page doesn't show up at all?

~~~
MatthewPhillips
It caches the articles.

~~~
raphman
And cache it does. Opera brought up a dialog box telling me that 5 MB wasn't
enough persistent storage for NYT.

------
ZoFreX
Wow, so it's just like the Gridlocked Wordpress theme but way, way slower.
Awesome!

[http://themeforest.net/item/gridlocked-minimalistic-
wordpres...](http://themeforest.net/item/gridlocked-minimalistic-wordpress-
portfolio-theme/245947/)

------
greyman
Moving through the sections is ok, but reading an individual article is
impractical, imho. There, I prefer the old way of scrolling through the whole
article by mouse wheel...much more comfortable than using keys or clicking on
small arrows.

------
raphman
One more site that absolutely requires JavaScript. Disabling JS gives you a
blank white page. While I understand such a decision for interactive apps like
Twitter, I think quasi-static websites should at least have plain HTML
fallback.

~~~
apl

      > I think quasi-static websites should at least
      > have plain HTML fallback.
    

<http://www.nytimes.com>

------
jivejones
Its kind of like that Gawker redesign that everyone hated.

~~~
donohoe
Except it pre-dates it (2009) and there has been nothing but positive feedback
(years of it) going Andre's way since it launched.

~~~
joshuarrrr
That's because it's totally optional, and anyone who doesn't like it can stick
with the default. I'd wager that if they switched the main site tomorrow,
there would be some negative feedback.

------
drcoopster
That's more or less the same interface that their iPad app was (and maybe
still is, I don't have an iPad anymore).

------
daviday
Good job, I really like it, but I didn't understand I could use arrow keys
until I came here and read comments

------
Vadoff
Now, this design might actually work if they implemented click-dragging for
changing pages/sections.

------
scriptproof
If the mouse has a forward and back button, it is very easy to use. Great
design for me.

------
plnewman
When I opened the page, my browser threw this warning.

 _The website “<http://www.nytimes.com”> is requesting 10 MB of disk space to
store “Stored content for nytSkimmerSections” as a database on your disk._

I'll pass on that.

edits: formatting.

~~~
ceejayoz
That's fine, it'll still work, you just won't be able to read content offline.

------
pk2200
The most compelling feature of the skimmer is that it circumvents the paywall!

------
bluekite2000
Gleebox doesnt work w/ the new version...anyone has the same problem?

------
kaichanvong
Trying it on OSX with Google Chrome. Broken.

This makes me sad.

------
iron_ball
Makes xScope crash to desktop on my HTC Thunderbolt.

------
nin_appa
It was originally made only for Chrome browsers.

------
ninthfrank07
it's really nice with the keyboard shortcuts

------
ricardobeat
Another awful iPad experience.

