
Toronto Cleared Cars Off a Major Transit Corridor - anonymfus
https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/11/13/toronto-cleared-cars-off-a-major-transit-corridor-and-it-worked/
======
Dave_TRS
From Toronto here, and just wanted to clarify that the headline is somewhat
misleading in claiming that "it worked". Article begins:

> One year after Toronto turned King Street in a transit- and walking-priority
> street, streetcar ridership, biking and walking are way up.

What "worked" is that removing cars did indeed make space for faster
streetcars and biking - but this is not surprising, practically a truism!

The purpose of doing a pilot was see if the trade-off is worth it in real
life. Worse traffic congestion for cars in the downtown core in exchange for a
fast street for transit and bikes. It will be interesting to see what the city
decides.

~~~
Sharlin
Did car traffic really just move elsewhere? Reduced demand [1] is just as real
an effect as induced demand.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand#Reduced_demand_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand#Reduced_demand_\(the_inverse_effect\))

~~~
jspash
Yes of course, as that was the purpose of this trial. Increase the cost (in
time and convenience) for drivers, therefore reducing the demand to use this
particular route by car.

In turn it increases demand for people using other modes of transportation due
to the lower "cost" of different ways of getting around.

But if you are asking, did the cars from King St. just clog up other streets?
Well, some of them did. But the increase of 20,000 users of the streetcars had
to come from somewhere. A number of them were most likely the displaced
automobile users.

Now the hard part is making the decision on whether or not the trade-off is
worth it. The cynic in me thinks that the local businesses, or a
vocal/powerful minority, will end up winning this battle and things will go
back to how they were. Maybe they will reduce the restriction to a block or
two to keep everyone happy. Time will tell.

------
jgh
I lived along there (king & bathurst) for a couple of months last winter and
thought it was great. Combined with the new street cars along king st it's
really pleasant.

At the time r/toronto would have people complaining about a lack of
pedestrians or whatever (it was -20 every day for like a month) but that
didn't really jive with my experience. Even in the really cold nights I found
that there were a good number of people walking around.

that said I can't really speak to the experience of someone trying to drive in
that area, but driving in toronto is horrible to begin with so I don't know
what people expect.

~~~
52-6F-62
I live right off of King St. west— catch a streetcar along there anywhere
bordering rush hour in the past was basically a no-go. You could almost
guarantee you didn't arrive on time, and you'd have to plow your way on and
off after waiting between 3-5 streetcars in any season. (I thankfully had to
catch the 63 north to the subway instead)

Even off peak hours catching a streetcar on King was a nightmare. King St is
no wider than any other street in the area so I don't understand the absolute
necessity for some drivers to have unbridled access at all hours.

This project made a _dramatic_ difference. It's no longer a major trial to
catch a streetcar, and they're no longer late or packed like a sardine tin.

~~~
xster
Same. I was on King and Bathurst too was lucky to have had the options of
walking, driving + looking for parking, biking (having lived in a couple of
places in North America, Toronto drivers are mean to cyclists) or taking the
streetcar and streetcar during commute time was easily the least reliable (and
close to being the slowest). It was precisely because streetcar was treated
like such a second class citizen on the road which this hopefully fixes.

~~~
52-6F-62
Definitely. I've only experienced that "second class citizen" treatment of
streetcars on King, too. They run well on Roncesvalles, Queen, Dundas,
College, Bathurst, Spadina, etc...

It's definitely improved monumentally. Also in part due to increasing service
and the new cars have helped open up space as well. Of course, they couldn't
have increased service as such without running the project or it would just
bottleneck.

------
nayuki
I live in Toronto. Traffic on King Street has improved dramatically, and
streetcars roll through smoothly. Quoting from the article to make things
clear:

> Using painted jersey barriers and other low-cost materials, the pilot
> prohibited through car and truck traffic.

Cars are allowed to drive on short segments of King Street, but not allowed to
go straight through major intersections. So this means they need to right turn
after 200 m or so.

Official web site: [https://www.toronto.ca/city-government/planning-
development/...](https://www.toronto.ca/city-government/planning-
development/planning-studies-initiatives/king-street-pilot/)

Road diagrams: [https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/8ead-
King-...](https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/8ead-King-Street-
Brochure_May2018_Web.pdf) ; [https://www.toronto.ca/wp-
content/uploads/2017/10/968e-Polic...](https://www.toronto.ca/wp-
content/uploads/2017/10/968e-Police-Postcard_AODA.pdf)

Options discussed during the proposal phase: [https://www.toronto.ca/wp-
content/uploads/2017/10/97f6-Main-...](https://www.toronto.ca/wp-
content/uploads/2017/10/97f6-Main-Report-King-Street-Consultation-Summary-
Phase-One-and-Two.pdf) ; [https://www.slideshare.net/CityPlanTO/king-street-
pilot-publ...](https://www.slideshare.net/CityPlanTO/king-street-pilot-public-
meeting-feb-13-2017) ;
[https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/programs/metromorning...](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/programs/metromorning/king-
street-design-streetcars-transit-1.3980055) ;
[http://urbantoronto.ca/news/2017/02/city-presents-options-
ki...](http://urbantoronto.ca/news/2017/02/city-presents-options-king-street-
pedestrian-first-corridor)

~~~
mtreiber
Best comment I heard about the Pilot was that Toronto built a new subway line
with concrete curbs and spraypaint.

------
blakesterz
Buffalo tried this a few decades ago and it did NOT work. The entire area
died, all the restaurants & retail closed. It took millions of dollars and
many years to undo it and now the area is back and full of people. I don't
know for sure the blame lies entirely on the clearing of cars idea, but that
sure didn't help. The city (like many) fell pretty hard for a bunch of reasons
at the time they tried this.

[https://www.buffalony.gov/1054/Cars-Sharing-Main-
Street](https://www.buffalony.gov/1054/Cars-Sharing-Main-Street)

~~~
hourislate
I have read some of the restaurants along that stretch of road in Toronto have
closed or will be closing. They have said business has fallen off the cliff.

[https://www.blogto.com/eat_drink/2018/07/pearl-king-
street-t...](https://www.blogto.com/eat_drink/2018/07/pearl-king-street-
toronto-closes/)

[https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/king-st-pilot-
forces-...](https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/king-st-pilot-forces-sushi-
restaurant-to-close-its-doors)

[https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2018/01/22/king-st-
business...](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2018/01/22/king-st-business-
owner-appeals-to-public-to-shut-down-streetcar-pilot-project.html)

~~~
angerbot
King street restaurants have high turnover anyways - most of them have not
been open that long to begin with. The area has a lot of competition so you
really can't get away with being mediocre for very long.

Lots of business were crying foul at the start of the pilot, but credit card
transaction data the city has hasn't borne that out.

------
canistr
You know what else the city could do to clear cars along a major transit
corridor?

Stop allowing taxis to park on Richmond just outside the Hilton hotel at
University.

Those taxis & cars parked at Richmond & University are singlehandedly
responsible for the traffic along Richmond coming off the DVP. It blocks the
left-hand turning traffic leaving effectively only a single lane crossing
University.

------
DeBraid
Walk this street to and from work. I choose to walk on King St. specifically
because there are no cars.

Street cars are at capacity during rush hour, which is a clear indicator
demand for transit not being met by supply (Toronto has a disgraceful subway
system given its size and position as global elite city).

Far more street-level retail/food on King than parallel arteries (3-lane 1 way
thoroughfares Adelaide and Richmond). Restaurants with patios on these streets
are now second-class destinations relative to car-free King St.

------
jcroll
I live in Toronto and the pilot project remains a very controversial decision
basically pitting the interests of commuters against car drivers in what is
for all intents and purposes a zero-sum game.

The next question is whether there's a solution where everyone wins and the
most immediate idea is a subway running down that corridor. Of course, the
amount of disruption that would bring to businesses already crying foul over
the pilot project is a tough pill for any politician to swallow. Ultimately
this is a lesson in failed urban planning as a subway built there decades ago
before all the condos went up in this city would have alleviated issues for
everyone involved.

~~~
bretthopper
Why do you think this is a zero-sum game?

That's only if the number of car drivers is equal to transit riders + cyclists
(and maybe some pedestrians).

Of course that equation is nowhere near equal. The entire reason behind the
pilot is because transit vastly outnumbers car drivers.

If you can improve the situation for 10-100x as many people, then why wouldn't
you? (all else being equal of course). I'm simplifying things, but I don't
understand why you're implying equal footing to both sides.

~~~
sandoz9
It's not just car drivers, eleven restaurants in the area have closed since
the pilot began. What do you do as a business owner when city is driving away
your customers?

~~~
52-6F-62
Those restaurants were already notorious tourist traps. The restaurants in the
area that were any good still remain.

Cars driving by those places was _not_ where they got their business. The city
didn't reduce parking lot numbers in the area. They got their business from
theatre-goers and other foot traffic.

One of the restaurant owners (who I won't name) decided it would be a worthy
protest to place a large ice sculpture of a raised middle finger to
pedestrians in the area, and the city at large. That came back to bite him in
a serious way. He was already a disliked business owner. That seemed to seal
it.

He drove his own business away, not the city. Another restaurant in the strip
serving similar fare is still kicking... probably because they're not half bad
and offer a better environment.

------
JTon
I remember hearing about this on the radio when it was first proposed and
passed. Very controversial. Drivers were PO'ed and transit users rejoiced.

------
microcolonel
The king cars are _a little bit_ faster. And it's just one street so it's not
the end of the world or anything. Overall it seemed to me like the effects
were pretty... meh. I used the King streetcar very regularly before and after
the project, and honestly, it was acceptable the whole time.

I think you'd have to ask the (great, if trappy) restaurants and boutiques
west of Spadina about the effect on their finances. I know a lot of their
customers arrived by car before, and many by limousine or other specialty
vehicle.

To be clearer than the post is, they did not actually shut out cars on the
King street, they made through traffic unlawful* . The distinction between
these things is pretty huge.

If you go by the financials given in this blog post, it is clear that the
businesses have lost money on this deal. 0.3% is slower than typical gross
receipts growth for these shops AFAIK. A 0.3% growth in gross receipts over
about twelve months means you're losing to inflation.

I know Angie Schmitt loves rapid transit just as much as all of us, but being
too optimistic about transit-focused developments, and too credulous with the
claims of politicians and wannabe technocrats is a sure way to ruin people's
lives in exchange for phantom glory.

* though taxis, as with most laws in Toronto, don't bother to follow the law because they know the police don't bother to police traffic in the city almost ever

------
lambersley
"And it worked" is somewhat of a misnomer. If you asked the hundreds of
businesses (bars, cafes, restaurants, etc), they might have a different
opinion. Motor vehicles are allowed to travel 1 block then forced to make the
next right turn. The human traffic along the corridor has significantly
decreased. The businesses are suffering. At minimum, ride-sharing services
should be allowed to traverse that corridor unimpeded.

~~~
andruc
I suppose you didn't make it to the end? "Toronto reports business receipts
are up along the corridor as well, albeit a tiny 0.3 percent" is hardly
suffering.

~~~
danielvf
..while "the rest of the city was up 3.8 percent over the same period."

Taking inflation into account, downtown receipts are lower than they were
before.

------
dade_
From my estimation, they are going to kill King Street, it feels deserted and
the bars and restaurants are very quiet during weeknight evenings. These
changes were made 24 hours a day, not just during rush hour. It makes driving
complicated and has caused much more congestion on the connecting streets so I
would like to know the impact on other transit routes that cross King Street.

The article mentioned restaurant sales are up 0.3% vs 3.8% in the rest of the
city, but didn't mention that employers were hit with a 22% increase in
minimum wage this year ($11.40/hr to $14) and this should be reflected by
higher prices to recover these costs.

There is no reason for this to cause businesses to go under, but commercial
leases are long term and difficult to exit so the real impact won't be obvious
for years if this does cause them to shut down or relocate.

~~~
blindwatchmaker
I both lived and work near there and this is the exact opposite of my
impression. King from bathurst to spadina is always jumping. The biggest
annoyance for me is all the damn plants the restaurants and bars have been
allowed to put on the street for some reason, makes biking there a headache.

~~~
ska
And here we have a good demonstration of the value of anecdotal evidence :)

------
hahamrfunnyguy
Turns out Robbie was wrong after all.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nySs1cEq5rs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nySs1cEq5rs)

