
iOS 13 now shows you a map of where apps have been tracking you - notlukesky
https://9to5mac.com/2019/06/08/ios-13-location-permissions/
======
toufka
Fantastic. It is the asymmetry in information collection that is so
frustrating as a consumer. In an _ideal_ marketplace, information flows
freely, and informed choices make the market move towards efficient
transactions. When no consumers know what information is being collected or
how it’s used, and it’s value is obfuscated, then deep rifts in expectations
can emerge.

We need more of this sunlight in order to make good decisions about how we
generate and share information about our lives.

~~~
m463
With trust, trade is unlimited.

That said, we should be able to say NO - and this includes apple. For
instance, why should we have to identify ourselves to apple?

~~~
reaperducer
AFAIK, you don't. An iPhone will work fine without signing in to any Apple
service and you can opt out of all Apple data collection right in the device.

I've set up several testing iDevices for work with no Apple accounts.

The only thing you can't do without an Apple account is to use the Apple
services like the App Store and iCloud and other paid services.

I think even software updates can be done without an account, but I'm not sure
since I haven't tried this.

~~~
rcw4256
What good is an iPhone without access to the App Store?

~~~
labster
People bought lots of iPhones before the App Store existed. Before Cydia even
existed. They were pretty good. You could send SMS messages, browse the web,
take photos, and play it like an iPod even.

~~~
saurik
FWIW, before Cydia there was Installer, and before that something whose name I
am not quite remembering (and don't care to look up rocky now)... and I am
pretty sure it was running on over 50% of all those original iPhones, as
people really found it strange to have a cell phone without even a single game
(even Nokia candy bar phones had Snake). (But yeah: at least some people
clearly still wanted the device. But that was in a world where there wasn't
tempting reason to as everything was accessible with a web browser. In 2019,
that reality no longer exists, and without access to app store on a smartphone
there are many many things you are cut off from.)

~~~
behnamoh
I think with the advent of web apps, the need for native iOS apps will
decrease, at least in some areas. Fortunately, this happens to coincide with
the advancements in internet speed and coverage.

In a few years: You want to play a game? Fine, let's bing it in Safari and
play right there.

"there's an app for that" soon will become "there's a web app for that".

~~~
sbuk
That was the original intention for the iPhone, 12 years ago. Developers
wailed.

------
benjoffe
It seems a bit extreme to offer apps one of two extremes: either my sub-metre
location or no location at all. It seems the reasonable default for location
sharing should be something like sharing the rough suburb that I'm in. This
solves most use-cases such as showing closest store locations, delivery
options, dating apps showing nearby matches, etc. It's only the occasional
navigation app that needs to know exactly where the user is located.

~~~
ultrarunner
I specifically get directions “home” to a neighbor’s house a bit away. Once I
know where I am, I kill Google Maps. I’m sure they could, if they wanted to
badly enough, figure the whole thing out, but at least my profile has a
certain amount of uncertainty (though what utility that has is probably
debatable).

I would love to be able to fuzz my location within a certain (randomized?)
radius of my home for certain apps. Strava has a ‘privacy circle’ that
essentially accomplishes this when sharing GPX tracks of runs around one’s
home. An OS-level feature would be fantastic in many cases.

~~~
Fronzie
Have you ever checked
[https://www.google.com/maps/timeline?pb](https://www.google.com/maps/timeline?pb)
to see? In my case, google knows where my phone is during the night: at home.

~~~
ilikehurdles
“No visited places”

~~~
Nextgrid
None that they want to show you. I'm sure they still have the data and use it
silently.

~~~
Karunamon
Based on what data?

~~~
Fronzie
The wifi and cell towers your phone can see, so even without using GPS. If you
enable the location services of google, it keeps a history which is typically
within 50 meters, within a few minutes accurate (at least in a city).

What google tracks if you disable location services, I don't know.

------
reilly3000
Good gravy this would be an abysmal report on Android. In my experience many
of the free utility apps and games I downloaded required location tracking for
no good reason. I’m on iOS for that (and other) reasons.

~~~
pixelrevision
Android also has a terrible issue with not having good options on this front.
You have to either not download the video game that needs open access to your
contacts or micromanage some sketchy looking app that will help you “block”
these sorts of things.

~~~
frosted-flakes
You can selectively deny permissible requests after the app is installed, but
what irritates me is that granting access to my location allows the app to
continually track me while it's running in the background (even if you never
open the app). I've heard this will change in a future version of Android.

I discovered this when I was scrolling through the DTEK app on my BlackBerry,
which shows every time an app requests sensitive data access, and saw that a
bunch of apps that I hadn't opened in a while (like GasBuddy) were accessing
my location every 5 minutes.

~~~
tty2300
I don't think background location works anymore. My GPS logger I use for
cycling gets killed after about 20 minutes if it isn't the currently open app
when I turn off the screen.

~~~
finchisko
This is not Android thing (yet). Just some vendors, start killing apps in the
background. However this is developers nightmare, as they can't deliver
consistent experience across all devices. IMO background tracking (with all
restrictions, killing...) should be handled directly by AndroidOS, not by
vendors. Checkout [https://dontkillmyapp.com](https://dontkillmyapp.com)

~~~
tty2300
I'm on a nexus 5x with lineage os. Maybe LOS added something but it tends to
be close to vanilla android.

------
m0zg
I wish I could also give apps "coarse" information about my location. Say down
to a mile, or even just the zipcode (5 digits only). I.e. if a news app wants
to know what to serve to me, zipcode is quite enough. If I'm looking for pizza
on yelp they don't need my exact location. That way on the one hand the apps
can function, but on the other they can't really track you accurately enough
for it to be terribly privacy-invasive.

------
zerogvt
Is it my idea or Apple is aggressively betting more and more in providing
privacy to end users? Also it seems that the other side of the party (Android
and free services) is moving fast towards the other end of the spectrum.

------
eklavyaa
I am glad I shifted to iPhone a year back and was able to convince my wife to
shift too last month. Why people who can afford a price of iPhone buy other
brand is beyond my understanding. When apps are not even reviewed by anyone on
Android then it certainly puts the user at more risk compared to iOS user.

~~~
notahappycamper
Some people are willing to accept a small amount of risk to be able to do what
they want with their device without being restricted to what the manufacturer
says is OK.

------
AYBABTME
Apple might end up becoming a benevolent king for whoever decides (and can
afford) to use its ecosystem.

I'm in favour of that, I wish it will democratize this concept to other
companies, although it's unlikely Google will since it's in competition with
their core business model.

------
fullshark
I support Apple trying to turn privacy into a major marketing issue, but I
think we’ve basically already learned that consumers just do not care.

~~~
somatic
Yeah, but what if the marketing isn’t for consumers?

What if someone at Apple was smart enough to figure out that the rampant
abuses perpetrated by privacy-monetizing Silicon Valley et al. were ultimately
time-limited and would blow up eventually?

What if Apple’s privacy-focused marketing was aimed at regulators?

~~~
fnordsensei
And/or aimed at people like me, who will then go on to force/nag people around
me to use more private/secure alternatives.

~~~
bjelkeman-again
Works locally around me. My family isn’t using Android for this reason.

------
xhruso00
The whole popup window experience is like Windows Vista.

------
ENOTTY
I predict apps will spam location requests to induce decision fatigue on the
'share once' users, who will switch to 'share while using' or 'share always'

~~~
OldHand2018
According to the WWDC video [1], this can't happen. Your app has to test for
permission every time you want it, and iOS decides when to show the permission
dialog.

Additionally, the 'share always' option goes away. Your app has to earn it, or
petition Apple directly for that permission. The 'share while using' is also
now temporary, as iOS will periodically ask the user to confirm that this is
what they want. iOS does this when the user is not using the app (on the home
screen), which is why you must now check to see if you have permission every
single time.

[1]
[https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2019/708/](https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2019/708/)

~~~
Karunamon
That’s a pain in the ass. I have a number of apps I explicitly granted
background access to. That should be my decision, not Apple’s.

------
tempodox
I've been using the location tracking permission setting from day one. But
still, making it more obvious and visible is a win for users who are less
aware.

------
dpkonofa
I really don't understand how people can simultaneously say that Apple is
anti-consumer and then ignore moves like this that not only show that Apple is
committed to consumers. It would be so easy for them to gather all this info
and sell it to advertisers and third-parties and yet they refuse to.

On top of that, I think it's strangely telling that most of the anti-Apple
stories when it comes to the "right to repair" movement all have to
misrepresent what Apple is doing or why they're taking the action they are in
order to make the story interesting and fit the anti-consumer narrative. We
live in a really strange time.

~~~
ikeyany
I've heard plenty of arguments that don't misrepresent Apple. For example, the
iPhone has never had replaceable batteries. Also, they were proven to slow
down old phones without telling users why, until it became an ordeal [1].

[1] - [https://news.northeastern.edu/2018/10/26/the-new-iphone-
come...](https://news.northeastern.edu/2018/10/26/the-new-iphone-comes-out-
today-is-apple-slowing-down-your-old-device-to-make-you-buy-the-new-one/)

~~~
askafriend
Please don't spread misinformation. It causes real damage.

Your statement is verifiable misinformation.

I am a customer who was _actually_ experiencing unexpected shutdowns due to
voltage spikes on a naturally degraded Li-Ion battery on my iPhone 6s. This is
something that happens to _all Li-Ion batteries_. I had experienced this on my
previous Android phones too when they got old.

The change Apple made was throttling the voltage from spiking to a point that
it can shut down a degraded battery when your phone estimates that it has 50%
charge left. Yes, this means older phones with degraded battery health (due to
normal wear/tear) would run a bit slower. This is the right thing to do
because otherwise it means customers would have phones shutting down
unexpectedly when they needed them the most (e.g. calling an Uber, or some
other critical function). It's a serious issue that absolutely needed
addressing, and I'm glad Apple addressed it (and I hope other manufacturers do
too).

The mistake Apple made was not communicating this change more widely or
explaining in more detail from the start. But they _did_ communicate it in the
change notes of the original update they delivered. They weren't trying to
intentionally hide it like you're trying to imply.

~~~
ikeyany
I made the appropriate edit in my original comment.

edit - Apple did not communicate this information to users from the
start...that is not misinformation. When I replied to your comment, your
comment originally consisted of just your first sentence.

~~~
askafriend
Here's a link to the change-log of iOS 10.2.1 (scroll down a bit) where the
throttling feature for degraded batteries was first introduced:
[https://support.apple.com/kb/dl1893?locale=en_US](https://support.apple.com/kb/dl1893?locale=en_US)

Every single person that upgraded their phone saw this change-log.

There's a line there that clearly says: "It also improves power management
during peak workloads to avoid unexpected shutdowns on iPhone."

If your argument is that it's lacking detail, then fine. But that's an
entirely different implication. A much less interesting one.

------
codedokode
They don't have options like "Never allow" or "Provide fake location". Why is
that so?

~~~
duskwuff
"Never allow" already exists. The user can deny location access when it is
first requested, or can disable location access through Settings.

"Provide fake location" is not necessary, because apps which fail to work when
you deny location access are rejected during App Store review.

~~~
akmarinov
Well Pokemon Go basically doesn't work without location and it wasn't
rejected.

~~~
zapzupnz
Bad example.

Yes, the core gameplay doesn't work, but the app still allows you to log in,
manage your account mess with your existing Pokémon and items, move those
Pokémon into Pokémon Let's Go's Go Park on the Nintendo Switch.

If you try to play the core game with location permission permanently
disabled, the game will alert the user that the game needs the location
permission enabled but it will _NOT_ lock the user out of those other
functions.

~~~
akmarinov
And if I'm a new user and create an account, but forbid location access - what
exactly can I do with the app?

~~~
kccqzy
Manage your newly created account.

------
lern_too_spel
Does it show Apple itself? Unlike every other phone platform, iOS does not
allow a user to get their GPS location without telling Apple what it was.

[https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207056](https://support.apple.com/en-
us/HT207056)

"By enabling Location Services for your devices, you agree and consent to the
transmission, collection, maintenance, processing, and use of your location
data and location search queries by Apple and its partners and licensees to
provide and improve location-based and road traffic-based products and
services."

~~~
gatherhunterer
Android has over half a dozen settings that must be disabled before the OS
actually stops tracking your location and they are spread out to different
menus. This is to say nothing of built-in apps like Google maps that have
their own location tracking settings which, if changed, return all of the OS
settings to their default activated setting. Manufacturers can have their own
location services on top of Android’s. Updating Android or firmware means
having to find all of the hidden settings again to turn off any that have been
reset.

Apple’s policy is in no way unique and iOS settings cannot be implicitly
overridden by app settings. The global settings are app-specific. I have
location settings on and disabled for every app except Apple Maps, other apps
still need explicit permission when they try to use my location.

~~~
izacus
There is just one setting for location access which blocks it off for all,
including OS services.

Please don't spread dishonest misinformation, there's no need for that.

~~~
gatherhunterer
> The Google support page for managing and deleting your Location History says
> that once you turn it off, "the places you go are no longer stored. When you
> turn off Location History for your Google Account, it's off for all devices
> associated with that Google Account." The AP's investigation found that's
> not true. In fact, turning off your Location History only stops Google from
> creating a timeline of your location that you can view. Some apps will still
> track you and store time-stamped location data from your devices.[1]

> Google itself offers at least three support pages on location: Manage or
> delete your Location History, Turn location on or off for your Android
> device, and Manage location settings for Android apps. None of these makes
> any mention of Web & App Activity. [1]

1\. [https://www.wired.com/story/google-location-tracking-turn-
of...](https://www.wired.com/story/google-location-tracking-turn-off/)

~~~
lern_too_spel
Location history is opt-in. You can get your GPS location without enabling it.
With iOS, there is no way to even opt out of sending your location to Apple.

Your article is misleading. The same apps that build a history of your
location with Android Location History turned off will build a history of your
location on iOS and other platforms. It is not unique to Android. The user is
well aware of it — if they search, they get local results, and they know that
if they have search history enabled, Google will store everything about their
query and interactions with it, including where they performed it. This
happens on Android and iOS, regardless of whether the user wants full Location
History.

Again though, you're getting off track. We're discussing privacy provided (or
in this case, not provided) by the OS, not by the apps the user installs,
which are governed by OS permissions exactly the same on both platforms
anyway.

~~~
gatherhunterer
This directly contradicts your original comment.

> Unlike every other phone platform, iOS does not allow a user to get their
> GPS location without telling Apple what it was.

> apps that build a history of your location with Android Location History
> turned off will build a history of your location on iOS and other platforms.
> It is not unique to Android.

The article that I quoted was to provide background to the comment that you
claimed was spreading misinformation. I don't think that anyone in this thread
has acted in bad faith and I don't see any benefit to the quality of the
conversation in accusing commenters of dishonesty, being sinister or otherwise
attacking the individual rather than the issue. I am happy to provide the
information that has informed my opinions and I am happy to hear disagreements
but a flame war is neither healthy nor helpful. Mobile devices are just tools
and neither platform is worthy of this level of personal investment.

~~~
lern_too_spel
> This directly contradicts your original comment.

No, it doesn't. Android lets you get your GPS location without telling
anybody, including Google. This is the default behavior, even on Google-
flavored Android devices. It is _impossible_ to get your GPS location on iOS
without telling Apple.

You're confusing Google apps that send location to Google on any platform when
the app is configured to send location to Google (like search), with what the
OS does regardless of which app is asking for location or whether the app
itself sends location data anywhere.

> I don't think that anyone in this thread has acted in bad faith and I don't
> see any benefit to the quality of the conversation in accusing commenters of
> dishonesty, being sinister or otherwise attacking the individual rather than
> the issue.

You're confusing me with sbuk and izacus, who are the only people in this
thread who have engaged in the behavior you describe. Please direct your
scolding appropriately.

