
My Electric Bike Is Not ‘Cheating.’ It Could Replace Cars for Millions of People - jseliger
https://longreads.com/2017/05/19/my-electric-bike-is-not-cheating/
======
bbarn
I'm glad the author likes hers, and it enables her to commute.

I don't care who rides what on a street. What I do care about is people riding
them on small narrow paths made for cycling at best speeds, at 24-28 mph. As
someone who raced for 10+ years and still rides 120ish miles a week, I don't
even ride that fast around bike paths. It's just too dangerous with joggers,
strollers, kids on bikes, whatever. When I see e-bikes zip past, I don't get
jealous... I get pissed off. I can drop into my small cogs and ride that fast
too - I just don't because it's dangerous.

And on trails, I'm sorry - I hold the stance that you can just go find a
motocross trail. Mountain bikers put too much effort for too many years into
getting what few trails we have built, and inexperienced people on motorcycles
do nothing for keeping those trails.

So, if you want it to replace your car, then great, have it. Whether you just
want to be eco-minded or got yourself a DUI - I don't care, have fun. But stop
trying to use it in places we've fought to get for bicycles.

edit: gender.

~~~
anon74574873891
The author is not necessarily a 'he'.

> ...I was wearing a skirt...

> posted by Pam Mandel

~~~
nextlevelwizard
Do you seriously not have better things to do than police comment section for
silly typos?

~~~
cooper12
Well gender is part of someone's identity, so it's important to get it right.
If you misgendered a person in real life, it might make them feel insecure
about their looks and features and hurt their self-esteem. (a man might for
example wonder if he is acting feminine) It's also more important on the
internet and communities like this one which are commonly stereotyped as a
boys club where male is the default and females are unicorns. (Also since
pedantry is the current topic, allow me to point out that a typo refers to an
unintentional error while transcribing, not spelling mistakes or using the
wrong term, which while mistaken, are done consciously)

~~~
Houshalter
There isn't any picture of the author in the article, so how would it make
them feel insecure about their looks?

~~~
cooper12
I was speaking in general terms. And there is a thumbnail.

------
Benjamin_Dobell
I've never lived anywhere near where I worked or studied - absolutely not
within push-bike riding distance. So I used to ride a motorcycle. However,
after several near misses with oblivious car drivers I decided I didn't want
to die.

Riding a push-bike is great for your fitness, but it's not feasible if you
have a long distance to travel every day. That can be assisted by public
transport, but that means you need reasonable public transport - being
drenched in sweat, trying to squeeze a push-bike onto a completely packed
peak-time train service isn't fun for anyone.

Motorcycles (and scooters) actually make a lot of sense, they are extremely
efficient as a personal mode of transport, quick and great for travelling most
distances. In many places around the world (particularly certain Asian
countries) motorcycles are hugely common. I wish that were the case in western
countries and that people actually took motorcycle rider safety seriously. The
stigma is really "do it at your own risk", which is down-right ridiculous
given I never sped, lane-split or did anything even remotely dangerous on my
motorcycle. If I was going to die it was at the hands of someone else, someone
whose thought-process never considered motorcycles as a legitimate means of
transport, never expected them on the road, and frankly never looked out for
them.

It's a shame, driving around a large 5 seat vehicle for 1 person is an
enormous waste in most cases.

~~~
wildrhythms
Thanks for mentioning the stigma around motorcycles and scooters in the U.S.
They are seen as grown up toys, yet all over the world motorcycles serve as a
primary means of transportation for millions of people. Careless drivers
obviously aren't targeting motorcycles, but I think there's a collective lack
of mindfulness to their presence on the road.

Anecdotally, I became a better car driver after just a few weeks of simply
learning to ride a motorcycle on public roads.

~~~
viral_krieger
What did you learn from riding a motorcycle?

~~~
THE_PUN_STOPS
I'm not OP but I do ride and experienced the same.

If you're taking it seriously and respect the danger, you learn how to drive
as if you are invisible. You learn to pay attention to and anticipate the
movements of other drivers, to look at their wheels and not their eyes. Eyes
lie, wheels do not.

You learn just how careless a shocking majority of people are behind the wheel
of a two ton vehicle. You peek into every window for the glimpse of a hand
reaching for a turn signal stalk, and all too often see a horrifying lack of
attention paid to the road and a surplus of attention paid to a phone, eating,
putting makeup on, putting contact lenses in, and smoking pot.

You learn to never hang out in a bind spot. Never!

You avoid situations where a car turning left in front of you (USA) has poor
visibility. Usually due to a left turn lane and tight conditions. This exact
scenario is responsible for a large percentage of moto accidents and
anecdotally I have had two close calls myself, and I'm a highly cautious
rider.

You avoid positions on the road which are statistically dangerous for riders.

Obviously these are things you can learn in a car, but it's just different.
The stakes are higher for small accidents and you really are invisible to many
people, even with hi-vis gear, motorcycles are just smaller at the end of the
day and Americans are not used to them nor trained to keep them in mind on the
road.

~~~
viral_krieger
Thanks for the reply. I agree not hanging out in someone's blind spot and
anticipating other drivers' actions are extremely important things to keep in
mind while driving.

------
dheera
I commute on an electric bike in the Bay Area. Electric bikes are awesome to
ride, but here are a summary of the main issues I've experienced so far:

\- LIES, LIES, LIES ABOUT RANGE -- I have a Gigabyke (gigabyke.com) which
ships with an SLA battery (a horrible design desicion) and claims a range of
35 miles and a maximum rider weight of 250 pounds. Good luck. I weigh _half_
that and when I got it new, I clocked in exactly 23 miles before the battery
crapped out. In Palo Alto, on flat ground, with no wind, on a nice sunny day.
It struggles up hills. They really should have said "maxmum range 20 miles"
and "maximum weight 150 pounds" if they wanted to be honest to customers. I
replaced the battery with an aftermarket Lithium battery and get more
acceptable performance now, but that does take some EE handywork.

\- REGULATION -- In California at least, it's technically a motorcycle if it
goes past 20 mph. People hate seeing your electric bike on bike paths though.
So you're forced to travel with 35-40 mph cars. On something that's hard-
limited to 20 mph because of some silly law. The 20 mph limit actually makes
them more unsafe. (This likely applies to a lot of US states. China doesn't
have this problem; most electric bikes there don't have artifically imposed
limits and are only limited by their motors.)

\- RED LIGHTS -- they never turn green, at least in much of the Bay Area.
You're forced to run them because the sensors can't sense you. And it's
illegal to ride onto the sidewalk to hit the pedestrian crossing light button.

\- HEAVY -- sure, they ship with pedals. They advertise that you can use them.
But I'm downright _exhausted_ after pedaling my electric bike for 100 meters.
In short, if you are at risk of running out of battery, use a normal bike
instead, which can be recharged by ... eating. I can comfortably go 100 km a
day on a normal bike as long as I have food and water available, whereas most
electric bikes will cop out at less than 40 km. So ... great for commuting,
not great for recreation.

On the plus side, they're super fun to ride, make a commute on a hot day much
more pleasant than a bike ride, are super-easy to park in congested cities,
help you avoid inhaling large amounts of carbon monoxide on your rush-hour
commute, and ideal for getting around large school campuses where you can find
charging outlets pretty much anywhere. So I love riding mine, overall. Just
pointing out that they aren't totally mature technology just yet.

~~~
jessaustin
IMHO there's nothing inherently wrong with a cyclist "running" a red light.
Cyclists are likely to be more aware of traffic conditions than motorists, and
they have a strong interest in ensuring intersections are clear before
entering. As with anything else, judgment matters. It's unfortunate that
occasionally motorists will be sitting at a red light when they see a cyclist
carefully approach the intersection and cross when it's safe to do so, rather
than when the light turns green. That experience will be frustrating, but
they'll have to _get over it_.

~~~
MandieD
It's not the opinions of the car drivers that matter, but those of the police
that might spot you: I got a Breathalyzer test and a 70 EUR ticket for doing
just that on a bicycle in a mid-sized town in Germany on a Sunday evening,
still light out. The Breathalyzer probably happened because "running" a red
light after a minute at a dead stop probably looked particularly crazy.

~~~
jessaustin
If you didn't see the cop, you might not have been as aware of your
surroundings as one ought to be to run a red? Nevertheless I've found police
in general not to care too much about what cyclists do. Once when I was
cycling while completely wasted, a cop simply _told_ me to walk my bike the
rest of the way home. Which I did.

------
manicminer
Cyclist here. It's a different type of vehicle than a leg-powered bike and
therefore not cheating at all... unless you're recording your rides on Strava,
then it is.

More bikes is a very good thing, whether human or human/electric powered.

~~~
taneq
Motorcyclist here. I agree. If it's got two wheels and it makes you smile,
it's a good thing. :)

------
taneq
I have a couple of friends with e-bikes and they sound like a lot of fun. My
only problem with them is that, by the time you've added 10-15kg of running
gear to a bike, you've entered a feedback loop where the bike's heavier, and
it goes faster, so it needs wider tyres, better brakes... and now is even
heavier and harder to pedal, so it needs more power... pretty soon you have
something that's enough of a motorbike that you can't pedal it unassisted and
should really be wearing proper safety gear, but still enough of a bicycle
that it's not a very good motorbike.

~~~
Retric
You really should be adding under 5kg for electric assist. As long as you can
easily recharge at work ~100w for 1h is really plenty of power in most areas.
On level ground you only need ~60w to do 15 km/h which is about the energy
output from walking. Add 100w assist and you can get up modest hills fast
enough to stay balanced without all that much effort which means you can show
up at work without needing to shower most days.

------
i2amsam
Through happenstance I rode an bike with electric pedal assist a couple years
ago, thinking that electric bikes were not for me, but why not try. I was
instantly hooked, the high-quality pedal assists feel "magical", like you are
just stronger or that your always headed down a gentle slope. They are also
very quiet which helps make the experience (at least for me) a bit dream-like
and surreal.

I really recommend everyone give one a test ride. For us, it ended up
replacing our second car.

~~~
jseliger
_Through happenstance I rode an bike with electric pedal assist a couple years
ago, thinking that electric bikes were not for me, but why not try. I was
instantly hooked, the high-quality pedal assists feel "magical",_

I think this is a key point and what many, many people are missing in this
thread. Ebikes can seem kinda lame or gimmicky. Then you actually try riding
one and they suddenly make a lot more sense.

------
IIAOPSW
Electric bikes are really taking off in China. I wrote down my thoughts a
while ago. Will copy and paste here:

Like a car, they offer cheap on-demand transit to your exact destination.
Unlike a car they do not support long distances, heavy loads or more than 2
people, but often those features are not needed by the urban commuter.
Furthermore they lack many of the drawbacks of a car; getting stuck in
traffic, the need for parking, the need for insurance, licensing requirements,
high fuel requirements etc. Furthermore an e-bike is a signifigantly smaller
investment than a car. Having it lost, stolen or damaged poses less of a
personal risk to your finances. Unlike a classical bike, e-bike's do not
require the user to be in shape or even exert effort to operate. Thus we see
that in the personal transport market, e-bikes represent the best of both
worlds for the urban commuter. We can see proof by demonstration that in the
right conditions they can be enormously popular (China). Why haven't they
taken off all over the world yet?

1\. Topography. They are generally not powerfull enough to go up steep hills.
Sadly this rules out San Fransisco which would otherwise be quick to pick up
on an eco-friendly trend.

2\. Regulation. These vehicles neither qualify as motorcycles nor bicycles and
thus are often ambiguous or de facto illegal in many parts of the states.

3\. Weather. Driving at 40 Km/hr in the cold of winter is unpleasant. The
otherwise perfect markets of the flat mid-west and dense+flat New York may
find this a deal breaker. Sun-belt cities without too much sprawl (Eg San
Diego) are the only place in the states that are a perfect match. The Chinese
have invented a rather unfashionable "bike apron" to make the cold weather
driving tolerable.

I think point 2 is a huge mistake. If the US is serious about green
technologies, deregulating e-bikes would be a huge boon.

~~~
kwijibob
I recently rode the electric share bikes in Beijing.

It was a fantastic experience. Pick up from anywhere, leave anywhere.

Share bikes are getting huge in China, sometimes causing a mess. But the white
electric share bikes in Beijing were a fantastic experience and could have a
big impact on the cities pollution and transportation issues.

------
maxharris
It could replace cars as long as it's not snowing, or raining, or too cold
outside, or you don't have stuff to carry.

You know what could replace cars for millions of people? A subway. But first
we have to work on legalizing high-density urban environments with narrow
streets...

~~~
Broken_Hippo
I live in a city in Norway.

Rain? Yeah, that's really no issue. Just dress properly and maybe take a
change of clothes. Grocery store trips? Totally doable. I walk to the grocery
and carry the stuff back. I did so in the states too - you just don't make
huge trips. A lot of commuter bikes have places to carry your basic stuff
anyway. Add a backpack and you are generally good. Too cold? Again, dress well
most of the time and it isn't much of an issue. Your tolerance for cold grows
over time. I'm not sure walking is warmer: On one hand, you move slower but on
the other, it takes longer. Some forms of cold _do_ suck, but one deals.

Now, I'd like to agree with you on snow and ice. It seems risky to me - but
I'm from Indiana. But they sell studded tires for bikes, and folks ride them
in the winter here in town.

~~~
grogenaut
Studded tires on a 2 wheeled vehicle require real skill to handle. Like near
snowboarding levels with generally worse crash consequences (pavement not
snow)

------
tjr225
I'm an avid cycle commuter(20 miles round trip every day) and would never
consider ebikes cheating.

I do however find the traditional bicycle, due to its simplicity, reliability,
and efficiency, to be one of our best inventions.

------
guy_c
Electric bikes are very popular in Tokyo. Many nurseries and schools forbid
car drop offs of children. So parents speed around on e-bikes. Ive seen some
parents with three kids on their bike. Child seat on front, child seat on back
and baby in chest carrier.

~~~
ghvknvgvh
They don't do car accidents in Japan? Astonishing.

------
meow1032
I agree with the main thesis, but from the exchange, it just sounded like the
biker was giving the author some gentle ribbing.

------
techsupporter
It's funny that the author writes about biking in Seattle and using transit to
get around. I'm a little jealous.

I'd love to commute like this except that I live on the west side of Lake
Washington and my job is on the east side of it[0]. And I work odd hours.
There are exactly two bus route combinations that will get me across the lake:
route 545 is a straight shot and route 550+RapidRide B is the one with the
transfer. Except that, especially on days with nice weather like today, the
bus is unusable when I leave work because all three slots on the bike rack may
be filled and Sound Transit / King County Metro has an absolute rule against
bringing a non-folding bike onto a bus[1].

I wish I could bike to work, and thus get used to biking more for general
stuff. But I can't count on being able to bring my bike back home with me at
night so it's walking+buses for me. I suppose I will just wait five years
until East Link arrives at Northgate.

0 - Changing jobs or moving house are both non-starters since I've worked
where I have for a very long time, almost two decades, and I'm lucky enough to
have bought a small house.

1 - Sound Transit and King County both say that bikes are unsafe to carry on
bus transit because the bus operates on a road and unexpected things might
happen. My rebuttal has always been: OK, so why are bikes allowed on Link
south of International District Station? Because, pardon my technicality, the
train is also operating in the road. Or why are bikes allowed to be walked
onto either streetcar (both of which are operated by King County Metro) since
both _very much_ operate in mixed traffic?

------
dreamcompiler
I have an ebike with relatively high power and a large battery because I live
in the mountains with steep hills. My regular bike is pretty much useless near
home. But my ebike has made me a cyclist again, and the only word to describe
it is "joy." If you get a mid-drive ebike with at least 750 watts of power,
you'll have no problem on San Francisco hills. I almost wish I lived in SF
(almost) just to ride this bike there.

------
Noos
It really won't. The fact is that even with an ebike, your effective radius is
maybe fifteen miles in one day, which will take 45 minutes to an hour to
cycle. Most people in the USA who need cars simply need transportation that is
powered for longer and gives much longer of a range.

It also needs to be operated in many types of weather conditions, like snow,
and often needs to cary four passengers or merchandise that takes up the same
amount of room. One that isn't vulnerable to theft or stripping.

Also, for the price of a good one, you could get a gas powered moped or 50cc
scooter, and watch your range extend dramatically with instant "recharging."

~~~
cooper12
I think a big caveat here is "in cities". The author is from Seattle so I
think they're writing from a perspective of someone for whom downtown is the
furthest place they have to commute in a day. The other example given in the
article quotes New York City. (and both quotes mention "urban")

------
jackschultz
Just curious about people who commented here. Did anyone read the article? Or
just read the title and then comments on what they think about electric bikes?

I haven't read the article, and this seems to be the case for tons and tons of
these threads.

------
tabeth
I have very mixed feelings about riding bikes in cities. The health benefits
can be completely negated (or worse) depending on the air quality around where
you are riding. There are certainly reasons to ride other than that -- speed,
freedom, etc. Electric bikes are good in that you can get to your destination
faster than a regular bike, reducing exposure to the mentioned issues. There
are few downsides to going electric -- hardly cheating.

~~~
llukas
Sitting in a car is still worse as you're exposed to same air but got no
benefit. (unless you sit in HEPA filtered tesla or something...)

~~~
hollerith
Although a HEPA filter can be very helpful, it does not remove most of the
pollutants in car exhaust (CO, NOx, SOx).

~~~
llukas
PM2.5 particles are thing that give you cancer and higher concentrations are
related to car traffic.

PM10 are not healthy either.

~~~
hollerith
Oh, sure, but again the CO, NOx, SOx and most of the unburnt hydrocarbons in
gasoline-fueled vehicle exhaust are not particles (they're gasses) and are not
removed to any significant degree by a HEPA filter.

In the US, diesel cars are rare, and I would guess that the non-diesel cars in
the US produce very little in the way of particulate pollution. Am I wrong
about that?

~~~
llukas
Hmm. According to this
[https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2015-09/documents...](https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2015-09/documents/sbai_pres.pdf)

Most particulates are from exhaust but amount of this is falling and soon most
contributing factor would be brake/tire wear.

~~~
hollerith
That's why I used the qualifier "gasoline-fueled": the particulates are coming
mostly from _diesel_ engines.

(I didn't belabor that point earlier because I assumed that people here would
already know that because the VW diesel-emissions cheating scandal was such a
big story.)

During a busy commute in a major US metro area, the vast majority of the
vehicles on the road are gas-powered (because a large fraction of trucks will
avoid busy commutes). I realize the situation is different in Europe where
diesel-powered cars are much more common.

------
thingschanged
I have a yuba mundo cargo bike with a BBSHD 750W motor and Panasonic 52V
battery. The whole setup costs around 2.5K, as I did the electric setup
myself. It has been great as I can carry 2 kids on it, and as I live in a
urban environment I never worry about parking. The BBSHD is a powerful motor
and has been trouble free.

~~~
ghvknvgvh
> I can carry 2 kids on it

Are you nuts? Do you want them to die?

~~~
thingschanged
They are in child seats, the Yuba is a great bike that is rated for over 700
pounds and has lots of child friendly adapters.

You can see more examples of parents pushing their kids in cargo bikes here:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Yy3kXIaKp8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Yy3kXIaKp8)

Without electric it can be a real workout, but with electric assist its so
much more fun. The kids cry these days if we tell them they need to go into
the car.

You can buy a Yuba with Electric from the company, but its 5K which seemed way
too much when you can do it yourself for 1/2 the price.

~~~
ghvknvgvh
Have you thought of what would happen if you collided with a car?

And then, have you thought of what would happen if you were in a car?

In the car, you have a crumple zone.

In the bike, _your kids_ are the crumple zone.

------
kingbirdy
It's a decent article, but I don't believe for a second that exchange at the
beginning actually happened

~~~
rocky1138
It's plausable from my experience riding an ebike. I've been yelled at by
cyclists claiming that I'm not allowed to use trails, etc. and from /r/ebikes
it's common to read that many cyclists call ebike riders "cheaters".

~~~
Johnny555
Depending on your locality and the power of your eBike, they may be right --
eBikes are restricted on many trails.

~~~
bluetwo
I've never heard of these trail restrictions on the east coast. I wonder if it
is a west coast thing.

~~~
Johnny555
It's really hard to generalize since state and local laws vary so much.

For example, in Massachusetts, eBikes are allowed on bike paths, but not off-
road bike trails:

[https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXIV/Ch...](https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXIV/Chapter90/Section1B)

 _Motorized bicycles may be operated on bicycle lanes adjacent to the various
ways, but shall be excluded from off-street recreational bicycle paths_

------
pentae
Reminds me of this great video I just saw about the new Motochimp
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEiJHq1Izwg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEiJHq1Izwg)

------
Camillo
How expensive is an electric bike? How do you keep it from getting stolen?

~~~
w00kie
Mine costs about $1,000: [https://www.yamaha-
motor.co.jp/pas/lineup/city-c/](https://www.yamaha-
motor.co.jp/pas/lineup/city-c/)

But I'm in Tokyo so I'm not worried about theft at all. It has an integrated
lock on the back wheel and this blocks the handle too.

~~~
Camillo
Tokyo is the best.

------
averagewall
I used to ride an ebike to work and my workmate sometimes rode a fancy racing
bike. He had special tyres and clothes and all sorts of expensive stuff to
make it easier. He also had to park it in the lunch room instead of the
carpark because he was afraid it'd get stolen. I once asked him why he doesn't
just put a motor on it and he wasn't happy with that at all. I don't remember
his response other than some kind of arrogant dismissal.

If a motor is cheating, then thin tyres, carbon fiber frames and aerodynamic
helmets are cheating too. They all reduce the human effort.

------
dingo_bat
If I'm going to travel more than 3 kilometres or so, I'm doing it in a car.
Motorcycles and cycles are just too unsafe for daily commuting, no matter how
environmentally friendly. They will never replace cars for "millions of
people".

~~~
solarengineer
Where do you live (where it is unsafe)? There are millions in my country
(India) who safely use bicycles, mopeds, and motorbikes. The degree of safety
depends upon the culture of the city as well as the road (highway, valley,
etc).

~~~
jogjayr
> There are millions in my country (India) who safely use bicycles, mopeds,
> and motorbikes.

Every part of that statement is true except for the word "safely". I first got
my driver's license in India, drove motorcycles and cars there, and then moved
to the US. Based on my experience, as well as publicly available data, I can
state as an objective fact that most drivers in India are terrible. You only
have to look at the fatalities per million kilometers:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-
related_death_rate) India is approximately 5x worse than the UK, which is near
top of the list. Even taking into account the differences in quality of roads
and emergency medical services, that's an _enormous_ difference. To a first
approximation, any adult bicyclist in India cycles out of necessity (can't
afford anything safer) not choice (again, first approximation; I have a
retired uncle who cycles 40km every weekend for exercise). Motorbike and
moped-riders are a bit of a mixed bag; some people who can't afford a car,
others who prefer it for traffic and parking advantages.

Whenever I visit India, it's astonishing to me the number of risks drivers (of
cars, 2-wheelers and trucks alike) take with their own and other people's
lives for very little gain. The concept of a lane is alien to most drivers,
motorbikes speed like crazy and weave in and out of traffic (even I used to do
it when I was younger and didn't know any better), no one ever yields to
pedestrians, traffic signals don't work or aren't followed unless there's a
cop standing there. I could go on and on.

Lest you think I'm a total wuss, I _love_ cycling in the US and it's my
preferred mode of transportation for trips under 10 km. I've done plenty of
cycling and motorbike riding in India also. But I would not dare ride a
2-wheeler on public roads in India on a consistent basis anymore. At least not
until our driver training, licensing, testing, and enforcement regime becomes
_much_ stricter than it currently is.

