
Motorola wins patent suit against Apple in Germany, iPhone/iPad to be banned - tilt
http://thenextweb.com/apple/2011/12/09/motorola-wins-patent-suit-against-apple-in-germany-iphoneipad-to-be-banned/
======
AndrewDucker
It does feel that Apple is reaping the whirlwind here.

For a long time the major players have all held loaded guns pointed at each
other's heads, with nobody willing to fire a shot because they knew it would
be more trouble than it was worth.

And then Apple decided to take the first shot. The big question now, is
whether the politicians will let this drag out, costing everyone a fortune, or
step in and call an end to it by changing the patent system.

~~~
ellyagg
What on earth are you talking about? Nokia sued Apple first after it became
clear they weren't going to be able to compete with the things Apple was
doing. Nokia was able to successfully extort money from Apple. Apple was
taught that this is how you play the game. If people want the system to
change, they need to lobby for it, but please remember your history. Apple
didn't start this and _everyone_ is doing it. Who is playing offense and who
is playing defense depends on how well you remember the timeline and which
"team" you side with.

~~~
Tuna-Fish
>What on earth are you talking about? Nokia sued Apple first after it became
clear they weren't going to be able to compete with the things Apple was
doing.

That's not exactly how it happened -- every other major player pays Nokia
licensing fees. Apple refused to purchase a license on the terms Nokia offered
(mostly, Nokia wanted a cross-licensing agreement for Apple UI patents. Nokia
actually cares about patents, and tries to not infringe on them.), so Nokia
sued them to force it.

~~~
ghshephard
" Who is playing offense and who is playing defense depends on how well you
remember the timeline and which "team" you side with."

At this level - All the major players try and license on FRAND terms first and
foremost - limits your risk, and keeps your legal bills down - but Nokia was
asking for more than Apple was willing to play - so they go to court.

All the players are looking at this from a Game Theoretic position, and, at
the end of the day, Patent holders _have_ to send some of their negotiations
to court, if only to make it clear their FRAND values would be held up.

Apple is somewhat unique, in that they aren't as keen on getting license value
for their patents as their competitors are - and, FRAND values on a design
patent is a lot more "mushy" than a radio chip function.

~~~
politician
FRAND means "fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory".
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair,_reasonable,_and_non-
discr...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair,_reasonable,_and_non-
discriminatory_terms)

~~~
moe
Yes, those are absolutely the first words that cross my mind when I read about
the patent lawsuit of the week...

------
untog
The article title is inaccuarate. To quote the body:

"which _could_ see an injunction placed on iPhones and iPads."

I would bet money on the iPhone/iPad not being banned. How many times have we
seen this now? Product gets 'banned', company appeals, ban is lifted. World
continues to turn.

~~~
Tyrannosaurs
The other thing is that in Germany if you enforce an injunction and it's later
overturned, you're liable for damages.

So the question might be how confident are Motorola that they might want to
line them up for damages equating to iPhone / iPad Christmas sales?

As ever Florian Mueller is better on this than most of the regular news
sources.

[http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/12/motorola-mobility-
wi...](http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/12/motorola-mobility-wins-german-
patent.html)

~~~
bad_user
Seriously, I would take Florian Mueller's opinions with a grain of salt.

~~~
barredo
curiosity: why is that?

~~~
bad_user
I've read many of his pieces and I am 100% sure that he's a shill.

~~~
barredo
That didn't solve my curiosity.

------
calloc
Why are patents related to a wireless standard that one is required to use to
interoperate with the networks not available for licensing?

How in the world is anyone supposed to even develop a cellular modem without
infringing on these patents? Isn't there some licensing body like the one for
MPEG that you can go to and get a blanket license to all of the tech?

~~~
eridius
As I understand it, Apple believes Motorola should be required to license
these patents under FRAND (Fair, Reasonable, And Non-Discrimanatory) terms due
to their importance in a fundamental standard. It even said this in the
article:

> Apple tried to license the patent under FRAND (fair, reasonable, and non-
> discriminatory) terms but Motorola was again able to convince the court that
> if Apple was judged to have infringed, the damages involved would total more
> than the FRAND rates that were suggested.

What I don't understand, however, is Motorola's argument. If Motorola was
supposed to have licensed this patent under FRAND terms to begin with, then
why does it possibly matter how much the "damages involved" total?

~~~
azylman
Ars Technica (<http://bit.ly/rxK9jR>) has much clearer coverage of this
article than TheNextWeb does:

"Motorola approached Apple in 2007, after the launch of the original iPhone,
to license this and other standards essential patents for FRAND terms. "We
have been negotiating with Apple and offering them reasonable licensing terms
and conditions since 2007," Scott Offer, senior vice president and general
counsel of Motorola Mobility, said in a statement e-mailed to Ars.

Apple apparently didn't consider the terms very fair...Apple apparently made
an offer to license the patent on FRAND terms going forward. But the matter
was complicated by the fact that Apple's agreement included a clause that
would allow it to try and have the patent invalidated if Motorola tried to
seek damages for past infringement over and above the agreed FRAND rate."

Basically, Motorola offered it on FRAND terms, Apple rejected it, and came
back with a new offer that was on FRAND terms but with the corollary that if
Motorola tried to sue Apple for any infringement they had already done their
patent would be invalid.

------
thurn
This is just as bad for users as Apple's own patent shenanigans. Nobody "wins"
these things but the lawyers.

------
yason
It's nice to see Apple getting slammed against their cheeks as well, but in
general this just points out how degenerate computer business has become. And
that's a lot sadder than Apple's karmic rebound.

------
atirip
One man, one company, one device in Germany? Remember those Vic Gundotra
shot's at Google I/O ? "Draconian future, a future where one man, one company,
one device, one carrier would be our only choice.” “Not The Future We Want.”
Now, when Motorola (Google) succesfully banned iPhones in Germany, someone
should ask Vic, what is he gonna do about it. If Vic stands behind his words
and is not a whiny-shitty-marketing-puppy, I expect Google to do something.
And soon.

~~~
patrickaljord
Motorola doesn't belong to Google yet, the acquisition hasn't been approved
yet so there is not much Vic could do. Second, didn't Motorola sue Apple as a
defensive move because Apple was suing them? In that case, do you suggest
Motorola should stay idle and let Apple sue them and ban their products? In
what world would a company allow that?

------
Tichy
I should be happy, but I rather wish all the patent nonsense would go away. It
makes everyone involved look bad.

------
mchanson
I wonder what the "tax" on products I buy from Apple or Google's partners are
by all these shenagens are. Do I pay $.10, $1, $10 of my iPad 2 price to help
fund all this nonsense?

------
libraryatnight
It seems like competing for sales is old hat, now the strategy is to throw
patent tantrums. This just comes off as a bummer for the consumer.

------
zyce
Sensationalist title, inaccurate and begging for extra clicks.

I'm not surprised to see this from a journalist, nor am I surprised to see
this from Nokia. Nokia's offerings have been near non-existent since they
moved from Symbian to WP7 development. If anything, this is a plus for
Microsoft, who I'm sure would've been happy to fund this (if they did not).

------
betterth
Let me guess:

Motorola abusing a patent for an underlying radio standard and preventing
Apple from using standardized radio technology: Totally legit.

Apple complaining about design and UI elements? APPLE IS THE MOST EVIL,
LITIGIOUS COMPANY IN THE WORLD.

This kills me every time.

Can't wait for the next round of lawsuits against Apple, in which disingenuous
tech companies sue Apple with patents they bought wholesale off a patent troll
or shifted around amongst themselves as if they were nothing more than useful
assets in a political game.

It makes it all that more hilarious when Apple sues using patents with Steve
Jobs name on it.

One has to wonder how many CEO's at those other companies have their names on
the patents they're suing over.

Or if their companies even had anything to do with the innovation the patent
protects...

------
drewda
Here's a cute, interactive visualization of these lawsuits:
<http://bl.ocks.org/1153292> (might be a few months out of date)

------
jfasi
I presume that by Motorola they mean to say Google, right?

~~~
scottmp10
The Motorola acquisition has not been approved yet. And I believe they are
actually prohibited from coordinating efforts until that happens.

------
billpatrianakos
Love them or hate them, this ruling isn't exactly a good thing for anyone
except Motorola. This one ruling, even if Apple loses appeal too, won't change
the way Apple operates. This will only hurt consumers in Germany. Like it or
not, people love the iPhone and iPad and there's a huge number of people who
would prefer those products over anything else. Poor German consumers. You can
say the same for Samsung in the US too and I'd agree (but I would also say far
less people would shed a tear for not being able to buy a Samsung phone or
tablet. My opinions are just that, however, opinions)

------
Steko
Pernicious falsehoods in HN mobile IP discussions:

(1) Apple is the only company that sues anyone.

(2) Apple was the first company to start suing.

(3) Whatever negative happens to Apple: well they deserve it for being
meanies.

(4) Whatever negative happens to Android: miscarriage of justice that just
shows how broken the system is.

~~~
jmags
I have to say that reading HN does not give me the impression that its posters
tend to be anti-Apple.

~~~
Steko
Not really what I was saying. What I'm saying is that the same zombie
falsehoods are repeated in every thread. Even worse, falsehoods are rewarded
with upvotes because, more and more, bias trumps accuracy.

It becomes tiresome to correct them over and over again only to see that once
again the highest voted comment is based on the falsehood that "Apple is
reaping the whirlwind" because "they [took] the first shot."

And inasmuch as you can generalize about a diverse community it's not a great
leap to go from the observation that these factually inaccurate comments are
often the highest upvoted to say that when it comes to IP Apple is commonly
treated here as the big bad.

This is despite the facts that:

(1) Apple is consistently the most innovative company and IP is supposed to
incent and reward innovation.

(2) Apple has paid out more for patent infringement then all their innocent
lamb competitors (put together?).

~~~
nitrogen
_Apple is consistently the most innovative company_

What does that even mean? You've got three unprovable terms in there:
_consistently_ (What does it mean to be consistently innovative? Wouldn't
Apple's copying of Android's notifications system contradict this?), _most_
(What metric are you using to measure innovation that gives the highest number
to Apple?), and _innovative_ (How do you define innovation in this context?
Patents filed (bogus)? Profit margins (not correlated)? Intensity of reality
distortion? Lines of code?).

------
MrKurtHaeusler
Saw a chick on the train today with book 12 on patent law (can't remember if
it was Germant or EU). It was about 7 cm thick, and the pages were real thin.
Bureaucrats (the EU fuckers don't even pay tax), lawyers and politicians are
just taking the piss now. I sure hope that is what the 99% are fighting
against, and not the right for businesses and individuals to trade freely
amongst themselves.

It is a wonder anything related to commerce can happen at all in well Germany
at least

~~~
mckn
Apple is staying in Germany in my opinion. I could not see otherwise.

