
What to Do When Laptops and Silence Take Over Your Cafe? - js2
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/13/dining/cafe-wifi-remote-workers.html
======
robotmay
This is such a bizarre stance. "Finish up what you’re doing and close the
laptop, please" would have me leave a venue immediately and never return.

In the UK the concept of people taking up space in coffee shops and not
spending enough is not limited to people on laptops. You're just as likely to
see an entire crowd of teenagers with one drink between them, or a group of
mothers with pushchairs hanging about for hours (though I suspect the mother
groups are good customers to have).

Personally I make sure I buy something at least every 30-45 minutes, and then
relocate somewhere else if it gets busy. Cafes are rarely busy during the work
day, so it's not like I'm depriving them of space.

But I've never come across a cafe with the approach of the ones in the
article. Pretentious nonsense like that doesn't survive long here. If you want
people to spend more money, ask them to leave if they haven't bought anything
within the last hour. That's a simple rule that's easy to enforce, don't just
blame a subset of customers.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
You have to find the space that's compatible with your needs. Don't blame the
no-laptop space for being what it is, any more than the laptop-friendly one.

Perhaps its not just about spending money. A coffee shop is (by some people's
ideas) a place for folks to socialize. Those other 'offenders' are
socializing, so are compatible with those spaces. Sitting in silence at a
machine makes for a boring space, which drives away the other sort of
customer.

~~~
latte
I don't want to come across as grumpy - this is an honest question. What is so
valuable in the guests' "socializing" with each other?

If I come to a cafe with my date or friends, I'll feel more comfortable
sitting among people with laptops rather than among noisy teenagers mentioned
in the gp comment.

~~~
ksk
>What is so valuable in the guests' "socializing" with each other?

Its the same value as socializing at any other venue. Or taking it back
further, whats the value in socializing at all? Maybe there isn't any value
for you. I personally prioritize meeting new people and forming local
connections, over virtual long-distance connections. A cafe is a good place to
do that, if people are open to the idea. AFAICT people glued to their laptops,
aren't.

> I'll feel more comfortable sitting among people with laptops rather than
> among noisy teenagers mentioned in the gp comment.

Those aren't the only two options.

~~~
hueving
What meaningful local connections have you formed taking to strangers in a
coffee shop? I listen to the conversations people have at coffee shops with
random people and it's been pointless smalltalk every time so far.

~~~
ksk
To give one example: I randomly met a person who like me, was also interested
in learning Japanese and we ended up taking a few lessons together, and
subsequently became good friends.

>I listen to the conversations people have at coffee shops with random people
and it's been pointless smalltalk every time so far.

That's how our conversation started too..

------
badsectoracula
This article feels is one of the very few cases where i read something online
and totally feels weird to me due to where i am from. In Greece coffee shops
are really mainly places to hang out and staying for hours on a single coffee
is pretty much normal and expected. There is a huge "coffee culture" here. Me
and my friends would go for a coffee at 6pm (or later 7pm, due to jobs) and
often leave at 11pm or sometimes 2am (note that many coffee shops, especially
at the most popular areas in the bigger cities remain open from morning to
very late at night and after some point they also start offering drinks). This
was also one bit that i missed when i lived in other countries (i had a sort
of culture shock one time when, visiting a mall a bit after work, i saw other
people from work _leaving_ from a beer outing at around 9pm or so :-P).

Laptop users aren't seen very often in general though (and TBH with how noisy
the shops are i doubt they'll ever be), although i live near a university and
there is a coffee shop nearby with nice flat tables looking at the street and
i often see students with laptops there. Also years ago, at my first gamedev
job (although before i joined) on a startup, the team didn't had offices for a
few months and the programming team mostly worked from laptops at the roof of
a coffee shop :-P (and AFAIK generally all meetings with the entire team and
everything were held in various coffee shops around the city).

Of course all that means that there are tons of coffee shops everywhere and i
remember when i lived abroad, my landlord - who visited Greece - telling me
how strange he found that there were so many coffee shops.

Personally i considered visiting a nearby coffee shop with my laptop a few
times (there are 5 shops just 100m range, two right outside of my place), but
i always change my mind because of the noise... and because i don't like
working from a laptop :-P.

~~~
keithpeter
I'm guessing that rents are low for the coffee shops.

I also decry the loss of public spaces such as libraries (in my northern
European city the main public library was rebuilt at fabulous cost and has
_less_ seating than the old one).

~~~
eberkund
I'm from Canada and the local library near me was also recently renovated with
less seating than the old one. The actual building is probably twice the size,
it used to consist of tightly packed 10ft bookshelves and cubicle desks and
little nooks and crannies where people can sit. Now it is a more "open
concept" layout with two story ceilings, short bookshelves that you can see
over, big lounge chairs. I would glady go to the library when I want to work
on my laptop but there is usually nowhere to sit, now I prefer to go to a
coffee shop.

~~~
rocky1138
If you haven't already, be sure to talk to the manager at the library to leave
this feedback. They can't improve what they don't know.

------
taneq
How common is it for people to do actual, regular, serious work at coffee
shops and the like? I've tried a couple of times and I always feel like such a
pretentious wanker when I pull out a laptop and start working on stuff, like
I'm somehow broadcasting "oh look at me, I work remotely, aren't I special?"

~~~
sdenton4
I wrote kind of a dumb amount of my dissertation at Mishka's Cafe and the
Delta of Venus in Davis. Mishka's has a thin row of seating at the front with
a 'no work' policy - including no reading except for newspapers - and then a
huge area of grad students on laptops. Delta's much less structured, has a lot
more ambient conversation, and has a real (and excellent) kitchen which I
imagine rounds out their business nicely.

So, yeah, it's a pretty easy habit to get into as a student.

These days, I mainly get my solo research in on weekends, and spend a few
hours in a local coffee shop. I tip generously, and occasionally buy a pound
of coffee to keep things on the up and up.

~~~
some-guy
I work in the Bay Area as a software engineer but live in Davis and work from
there two days a week (wife is a PhD student). Delta of Venus is the only
place I can get work done.

------
JumpCrisscross
> _At Triniti, Mr. Wynn offers free Wi-Fi, but after two hours a customer must
> have “a face-to-face interaction” with an employee, he says, to get a new
> password_

This is the best approach. (The "a staff member will approach the uninitiated
customer whose laptop is open for more than a couple of minutes with a gentle
but firm request ‘to finish up what you’re doing and close the laptop,
please,’ approach is the worst. No sign, no explanation--just a demand.)

> _the Rose doesn’t provide electrical outlets; a dwindling battery should be
> a sign that it’s time to go_

This is also fine, albeit ineffective against my MacBook Air.

~~~
randycupertino
Or just set a purchase minimum. Must buy $x worth of stuff for every few hours
you spend there. Seems fair.

Cafes aren't your free all-day office offering complimentary wifi for the
price of a $2 coffee, they're businesses trying to make money to pay their
rent.

~~~
collyw
Maybe you could have a wifi system that disconnects after a set time period.
Buy something and your code gets renewed.

~~~
121789
That’s what a cafe that I frequented in Chicago did (buzz). Two hours of WiFi
with your purchase. I thought it was a great system

------
scarface74
I don't work in coffee shops - or drink coffee for that matter - but I do take
long lunches at times at restaurants just to just take a break during the
middle of the day and take my iPad and go through my RSS aggregator. There is
something relaxing about the combination of being around other people and
still not having to interact with them. I don't get it either.

It's the same way about going to the gym. On one hand, after I stopped
teaching fitness classes part time and working out with friends, _going_ to
the gym became a chore. I like working out at home and converted one of our
bedrooms to a mini gym. I love the convenience, but kind of miss just working
out on the gym equipment around other people even if I never talk to them.

Maybe it's the sense of shared purpose?

~~~
Froyoh
> RSS aggregator

Why do you still choose to use them today?

~~~
PeterisP
It's a nice way to aggregate content creators who have good, but sparse or
irregular posts - i.e. where it wouldn't be useful to pull every single one of
them to see if there's anything new, you just have a single "inbox" for that,
curated down so that it's not too much to read everything.

~~~
scarface74
I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum - if I don't go through my RSS reader
at lunch, I can easily have 700-1000 articles. I may read about 30 outside of
HN.

------
lifeformed
I work in cafes a lot and have my own code of conduct:

\- Don't work in a place that's really busy. If it becomes busy, I'll wrap up
and move somewhere else.

\- Buy something at least every 2 hours. If I've had too many coffees, then
decaf at least, or a pastry. Spend around $5 each time.

\- Tip! (Where appropriate). I like to add $1 for each purchase.

\- Get to know the employees. Learn their names and greet them.

~~~
kilroy123
Buying something every 2 hours seems excessive and expensive. I agree about
the tipping well part.

~~~
lifeformed
I don't usually stay at a place more than 3 or 4 hours anyways, so it's just a
midway refill point for me. I usually work the rest of the day at home, or
switch to a new place if I want to stay out.

Also, the amount to spend can scale with your budget; it seems more important
to just to get up and buy something, just so you don't appear completely cut
off from the rest of the world.

I normally get espresso drinks, but sometimes I'll get a normal drip coffee,
which usually has a cheaper refill ($3 for the first, and $1 for a refill),
and I'll tip on each refill.

------
jonnycomputer
I like to work at coffee shops. Its true. But I don't blame coffee shop
owners, especially in high-rent areas, for complaining about coffee shop
workers. First, when they start a business, they likely have an idea of what
they'd like to see it become. Running a place like a cafe isn't likely _just_
a business proposition for them; its a cultural one. Maybe they like the idea
of their cafe being a hub of social and cultural activity, full of quirky
personalities, artists, and political theorists; rather than remote white
collar work spaces. Also, they've got to pay the bills, and their margins are
pretty thin.

~~~
roymurdock
Similar dynamic at the boxing gym I go to. The owner is a real boxing guy, but
he knows the suburban moms and cardio/aerobics classes pay the bills. He's
managed to find a good balance, training a few competitive fighters and
putting on a few fights a year, but he could be making so much more money
doing the whole volume aerobic/kickboxing model. We joke about the Title
franchise gyms that have sparring rings for display purposes...but in the end
that's what makes reliable money. Gotta respect those that go out of their way
to foster unique culture at the expense of "good business", its a rarity these
days

~~~
rconti
The true enthusiasts rarely pay the bills. For one, people really dedicated to
a certain hobby typically don't have the money that the casual folks do. For
another, they know the cost/value of the service.

People building their own gaming rigs aren't paying local computer stores'
markup. Ski bums have cheap season passes, get way more than their money's
worth, and pack a lunch rather than pay $20 for a cheeseburger; only tourists
pay $120 a day for one-day-pass. And so on.

~~~
compiler-guy
It's also a pure numbers game.

The number of people who just want kickboxing-cardio is much greater than the
number of serious fighters. The number of casual skiers is much greater than
the number of ski bums.

Mathematically, although a business owner might love the serious hobbyists,
usually, there just aren't enough of them to pay the bills.

That's why really serious pro-level coaching and training is so expensive:
they can't spread their costs among enough customers to make it cheap for
everyone.

------
uranusjr
I’m somewhat surprised by the article. There is recently a giant indi cafe
boom in Taipei that made it one of the most developed cafe city in Asia, but
almost all well-regarded shops do everything they could _to keep the place as
quiet as possible_. Maybe it’s the introvert eastern Asian culture in play
here, I don’t know. The article assumes it is abnormal for cafes to be taken
over by silence, but I mean, it’s totally cool to build your cafe a social
place, but it’s not an inherently bad thing if your customers want it to be
quiet either. Maybe your customers actually want that—and if that’s the case
(maybe it’s not, I don’t know, but _if_ it is), it sucks to have another quiet
place taken away.

~~~
randycupertino
I don't think it's the silence the owners really care about, it's more that
people aren't paying and they hog the seats all day for the price of a $2
coffee.

~~~
uranusjr
Charge them, or install some kind of time limiting then. Cafes here either
charge at least $5 for a coffee (note that wage in Taiwan is about half than
the US), or would ask you to leave if you stay for 2 hours (they will tell you
first, of course). If this is what the owner really cares about, I feel the
article is solving the wrong problem.

~~~
randycupertino
> If this is what the owner really cares about, I feel the article is solving
> the wrong problem.

True, but then again the hallmark of NYTimes aspirational twee writing is to
harp on some wannabe hipster psuedo-retro twee bs - "Cafes are too silent!!
People aren't interacting in social old fashioned ways! Nobody makes 3-week
brine horseradish pickles anymore except for this one Fort Point Hassid who
only works on the 8th Tuesday of the Month!!!" while simultaneously ignoring
the common sense factors (Cafe owners are losing $$ because people use their
cafes as free office space, and horseradish pickles be gross).

------
wjh_
There's a place I often visit in Shoreditch called Ziferblat[0], and I think
that they have something of a solution to this (they have other places too).

Essentially, you are charged for your time and everything else is free.
Presently I think it's about 7p per minute for the first hour, and then 4p a
minute afterwards - there's also a cap.

While in there, coffee, snacks, etc, are all "free".

Perhaps this sort of model could work? Obviously if you're not willing to kick
out all the remote workers. I guess this turns it into more of a coworking
space though.

[0]: [http://www.ziferblat.co.uk/](http://www.ziferblat.co.uk/)

~~~
slivym
This doesn't seem like it's a solution to the problem, it's just a different
type of venue with the opposite problem. If I go in and grab a coffee and a
crumpet they're not going to be very happy.

~~~
wjh_
Pretty much. Perhaps billing per minute if you're going to stay for longer
than an hour, or per item if you're staying for less. Though that seems overly
complex and a logistical nightmare.

------
rundigen12
Reading this is surreal, like Opposite World. You are selling me on quiet,
wifi & power, at the price of your fancy coffee (and preferably even real
food), so I can work/read/study in nice atmosphere. Why else would I tolerate
paying nearly $6 for a latte and $5 for a muffin? If all I want is to get
coffee itself and immediately hit the road, I can go to coffee stand or
vending machine.

"Your $3 coffee doesn't entitle you to sit for an hour." First, perhaps I'm
typically more than the average user, $3 coffee sounds either horrid or a
miracle. Second: Why not? Isn't that the whole point? You're luring me to come
in & buy your wares so that I get the benefit of sitting for a while and do my
thing, whether it's read a book or work on my laptop.

To the people who see silence & laptops as bad in and of themselves: who are
you to prioritize talkers over non-talkers? In my mind and those of many near-
university dwellers, cafes are precisely for sitting, reading, working, not
for having (sometimes loud) conversations that disturb those around you.

Finally, I'm not aware of "taking up space", as there are typically multiple
empty tables at the (independent, non-Starbucks) coffee shops I go to. Maybe
this article applies to high-volume areas & times, but I'm not interested in
such places anyway.

TL/DR: If you ban people working and studying on laptops, that will just be
even less revenue for your establishment, because that is the only reason many
of us showed up. Ration out the wifi with time limits and access codes on
receipts if you like, I'm fine with that, otherwise just be happy I'm there
rather than having yet another empty table.

~~~
PascLeRasc
Did you read the article? Coffeeshop owners are not open office landlords,
they want to cultivate a cultural hub for the local area. Yes, to them
conversationalists are more interesting than non-talkers, not to mention that
it feels awkward to be the only one talking in a room of people not talking.
If you want a quiet space with wifi and power, work from home, rent an office,
or go to the library.

~~~
always_good
I get that, but I also get a vibe of "adapt or die" we said about Blockbuster
when they thought they were cultivating an atmosphere of the joy of picking
out a movie with your family.

I'm sure everyone wants to be a real life Central Perk from Friends, but
that's not coming back in the age of smartphones, laptops, and remote workers
without some serious trade-offs like the alienation of a potentially majority
subset of your customers in the first place.

Business owners of course are free to do as they please and I think it's
interesting for them to experiment with cultivating a modern social experience
in a cafe. Hopefully they are upfront about their rules, though. I would feel
some resentment if I was blindsided by some of the behavior in the article.

------
lasermike026
I worked in the restaurant space for many years... technology in the
restaurant space. That's a very interesting story too.

Running a restaurant or cafe is pure social engineering. Because you control
the environment you can influence the behavior of customers that occupy that
space. Restaurants and cafes are a hospitality industry. You must treat your
guests like kings and queens. But you also have to make money. Margins are
razor thin.

You can change the mood and behavior of a place with music and lighting alone.
If the customers are too sedentary crank up the music and make it a fast pace.
Turn up the lighting. It gets people moving. Send waiters out and ask
customers if they need any thing. Be nice, cheerful, and helpful. They will
realize that this isn't an office.

If you have a problem with laptops you can kill the wifi and power. A better
way would be to work with the laptops and devices. Give people an opportunity
to spend. Make it work for you. Offer them technology to use! That's what I
helped do.

------
kenning
If I bought a cup of coffee at your shop and sat down, only for you to tell me
that laptops are "not allowed," I'd be very unhappy with your store.

Anyway, this is why coworking spaces exist.

~~~
toomanybeersies
Your $3 coffee doesn't entitle you to sit there for an hour though.

If I was running a cafe, I'd expect that you'd be leaving within 5 to 10
minutes of finishing your coffee. The very few times I've worked in a coffee
shop, I've done that myself. It's not a coworking space.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _Your $3 coffee doesn 't entitle you to sit there for an hour though_

Read up on the history of cafes. This is what they historically were—places
for people to be, not grab and go. If a coffee shop owner wants grab and go
customers, they’re a glorified vending machine. (The article notes a
conversation-versus-quiet dynamic that I can better empathise with.)

~~~
carlmr
In Europe they still are places to sit down. But people that chat with one
another still tend to order much more, because they're more aware of their
surroundings, in touch with the smells of the freshly baked croissants. The
laptop pulls you into a void where you might even forget to drink.

~~~
andrewshadura
Oh, when I'm working at a café, I tend to drink much more than I otherwise
would.

------
nharada
So is this about sales or about the vibe of having a coffee place where people
hang out and chat? I'd be happy to pay some money to work for longer than one
drink at a cafe, but I don't really want to drink 5 coffees to work for a day.

~~~
k_sh
See Workshop Cafe[0], $2/hr for fast wifi, order-by-text table service,
suitable spaces for groups, and even some external monitors lying around (as
of 2016...)

[0]: [http://www.workshopcafe.com](http://www.workshopcafe.com)

~~~
eeZah7Ux
$2 per hour sound like a honest and fair price.

------
chippy
When I am touring the USA, (i.e. as a tourist) and enter a cafe and it's full
of people heads down, earphones in, working, I walk out. It's not a nice space
to be in. Even with music in the cafe, there is not the shared music in the
customers. Why would I want to share a space with people who don't want to
share with me?

In the UK, it's reasonably uncommon to find people wearing earphones in cafes.
Most cafes have a good selection of music. It's more common, at least around
here, that those working on laptops are students doing work. Often they will
meet their friends and work together.

However, there are workers in these cafes too - and their etiquette is
atrocious. I often see people leave their computers at the table, and head out
to do some shopping in the local shops. Often they would have loud telephone
conversations or conference calls. One even came back with their own food.
When the cafe staff said "sorry, you cannot eat your own food here", they
replied "oh, it's okay" as if the cafe were apologising!

When I bring my laptop, I make sure I spend the same amount of time in the
cafe as if I was using it as in any other way, and never over the lunch period
when tables are at a premium. One drink per hour seems fair.

------
turc1656
The problem that gets touched upon by the article but never really explicitly
stated is simple - these people are using a retail business as their office
space. And they are doing so without a contract which guarantees the business
owner any income. They are basically left running like a charity, in the hopes
that these poachers will be gracious enough to throw enough money at them so
they can stay afloat (which then requires them to produce food/drink, so it's
worse/less than a charity). It doesn't matter if the cafe is mostly empty
during a work day. They are taking advantage of the situation and the
business. Many of the cafe owners want to create a certain environment, one of
social interaction that is designed to be a pleasurable experience. I totally
understand why they don't want to have zombies sitting there all day.

Why don't these people either work from home or one of these shared workspace
places that have become popular in recent years? I presume they want to get
out of the house but also don't want to pay what is surely a higher amount of
money to get a shared space. The article mentions that it was $100 more than
that one person spends regularly on their cafe budget. I find that hard to
believe that it can be that cheap, but apparently it is based on a quick
search I just did. But that extra $100 also comes with 1) a contract and 2) no
food/drink.

~~~
guiomie
I completely agree. I usually go to Workshop Cafe in SF to work in a
"coffeeshop". Everytime I go in a coffee shop to work, it feels awkward from a
convenience (lack power, wifi or space) and social perspective.

~~~
icc97
I never use power, the laptop battery lasts 3 hours which is as long as I
stay. If there's no space I typically wouldn't stay. I just use my phone as a
WiFi hotspot if the cafe doesn't have any.

But yeah I get kind of odd looks from one of the café owners, although he's
the one who has the least customers.

------
pingec
It's very easy to avoid any problems when working in a cafe. Upon entering
simply ask if it is okay to order a drink or two and work on your laptop. If
they say no just try another place.

And it depends a lot on culture / country / area as well. In Slovenia I have
never asked as long as there were empty seats still available. It is common
for people to hang at a place long after the last order. In my opinion it even
adds to the atmosphere because the cafe or restaurant is less empty.

On the other hand I was in a group of 4 at a Tokyo cafe which was 90% empty
and we were asked to make a new order or leave 30 minutes after the last
order.

------
craigds
When I work from cafés I try to spend at least a few € every two hours, and
avoid places that are overly busy (I don't like noise, but also if there's
spare seats then I'm not costing anyone customers by sitting in one all day).
Feels like common sense really - don't be an asshole.

~~~
pferde
Sadly, the always useful "don't be a douche" rule of thumb is something that
very few people internalize lately.

------
Xcelerate
I live in Knoxville, and we’re up to about 10 independent little coffee shops,
with the bulk of them having opened in the last few years. Most of the owners
don’t seem to mind people on their laptops, but then again, there is a
university nearby so I’d say about 90% of people in the coffee shops are on
their laptops focusing on school work. Most of my research in grad school was
completed at these places.

That said, I normally don’t stay longer than 3 hours at any individual coffee
shop, particularly if there’s a lack of seats for new customers. I also
generally tip $2-3 — more if I buy a pastry. You can typically tell which
places are amenable to laptops because they have an outlet at every seat.

I think remote work will only increase over time, and I’m sure there are other
people like me who focus much better in a coffee shop with strangers and music
than in an open office. I’d really like to open my own coffee shop one day
with ample seating and a sign that says “laptops and conversation both
welcome”.

~~~
heartbreak
I briefly needed to stay in Maryville (~3 months) while remote working, but I
had no real workspace in my extended stay. I should mail the owner of Vienna a
co-work space sized check for the amazing service she and her coffee shop
provided while I worked there every day. +1 for the people and especially the
coffee shops in that area.

------
CaliforniaKarl
OK, to the person who tore wallpaper in order to get to a power outlet, I
really hope I never meet you, as I have absolutely no respect for you now. Do
not destroy/deface someone else's property like that.

And for the café, I know it's not a perfect solution, but beyond solutions
like obtrusive locking outlet covers, or turning off outlets at the breaker,
you could also look at swapping the outlet out with an L5-15R. That's the same
voltage & amperage as a regular 5-15 receptacle, but uses a circular plug that
pushes in and turns. You'll see them (or a similar amperage) on certain
Metrolink (in LA) and Caltrain Bombardier cars.

You could either get an adapter (NEMA L5-15P to 5-15R), or change out the
plugs on the stuff you'd plug in (like vacuum cleaners). And no, it won't stop
someone who is absolutely determined, and who is willing to go out and buy an
adapter. But it makes it all the more obvious that this receptacle is not for
people to use.

------
dawnerd
A cafe thats hostile towards their customers is a great way to get a bad
review and a lost customer. If you don't want people working there don't
provide tables or chairs.

~~~
oneeyedpigeon
Some people like to sit down, or rest their food on a flat surface. If you
don't want people working there, take away the power, the WiFi, and play some
music. Maybe even make the tables smaller, but don't take them away
altogether!

------
debatem1
There's a restaurant near me with a 5 cent cellphone charge that just doesn't
get enforced. The simple fact that it is noted and low keeps people aware that
it is a faux pas but not too grouchy about it (especially over a $150 dinner).
Feels like a reasonable compromise in that environment.

------
therealmarv
No power plugs (I think most effective) & time limited Wifi. A cafe is not a
coworking space although when beeing in USA or more specifically in SF I have
the feeling people think it's the same.

~~~
Double_a_92
Why shouldn't it be if it fills some peoples need?

Why should a cafe not offer that if it brings them customers?

~~~
ProblemFactory
It depends on how many spaces the cafe has and how expensive rent is.

If the cafe has plenty of free space, then people working on laptops is extra
customers and beneficial. If it has little space, then a person ordering a
coffee every two hours is taking away space from more profitable customers who
eat, drink and leave in 30 minutes.

------
nkrisc
Good for the owner, I guess, but why do I have to talk to people wherever I
go? Why is being alone with your thoughts considered antithetical to being out
in public?

I don't mind being around other people but sometimes I just don't want to talk
to them. I stopped finding "awkward silences" awkward long ago. Silence is ok.

FWIW, I'm not usually on my laptop in public.

------
Gys
> Cafe owners find it difficult to define a consistent strategy without a
> proven, profitable relationship model.

Revenues seems the main objective of the cafe owners in this article.

In Paris is a cafe [1] that solved this by giving out access passes if you
want wifi. If you did not spend enough at the end of your session, you have to
pay something extra. I was there several times having lunch and staying most
of the day without having to pay extra. Really liked the place, also because
this system helps to not feel guilty ;-)

[1] [http://cafe-craft.com/home/](http://cafe-craft.com/home/)

------
javadocmd
I have to imagine wallpapering over a functional power outlet is not up to
code.

~~~
nickysielicki
The photographed lightswitch that is haphazardly installed on an open pattress
with no cover is probably not up to code, either.

However, it does add to the atmosphere.

------
jonnycomputer
If its just revenue, then I think the alternative is to charge for wifi, for
time-in-seat.

e.g. here is your table. its yours for $8/hour. House coffee free. Anything
else, go to the front.

~~~
travisjungroth
There's a place like this in SF:
[http://www.workshopcafe.com/](http://www.workshopcafe.com/) . Their location
in the Financial District (I imagine the rent is high) is only $2/hr. So, it
doesn't have to be much.

~~~
Woofles
The other model I found interesting is the Capital One Cafe. It's a Peet's
inside, but they offer banking services and ATMs as well. They have plenty of
space and outlets at every table, seemingly at the cost of your eyeballs on
their materials. Obviously not every coffee shop wants to be corporate, but
for workers it's pretty nice.

------
arca_vorago
Am I the only one who wishes for the return of the Internet Cafe? If even
better, the Lan gaming cafe?

There's something so nostalgic about back in the early pc gaming days, when my
high-school computer club would do a lockin and we would eat pizza and have
surge or blue balls and game the night away.

More on subject, the real problem IMHO is most coffee shops just don't have
much room. The Internet cafes were always pretty big and usually had half high
cubicle walls for privacy.

~~~
arca_vorago
Bawls* darn autocorrect

------
eecc
Well, in Amsterdam I was told to move by the window (were there was no space,
all camped out by students) because me working on a laptop was not deemed
“gezellig”. Fine, except that it was summer and everyone not wanting to work
was basking in the sun on the terrace, inside was desolately empty.

That’s to say: I agree it’s not cool to squat a table 3hrs for 5$, but
sometimes these situations happen because it’s the house that’s run by a
hipster wanker...

~~~
tobyhinloopen
In Amsterdam (and I assume every modern city) there are places you can
actually rent a "desk" for a period of time. It is like a cafe with coffee &
food, but with better seating and silent. Why not go there?

~~~
eecc
It was a one-off, I just need to do this quickly and home is busy?

------
deckar01
There is a restaurant in Tulsa call JJ's Gourmet Burgers. It is famous for
it's eccentric owner enthusiastically kicking customers out of his restaurant
for not abiding by his unwritten rules. The place has been around since the
70s. The owner decided how he wanted his restaurant to be used and he was
rewarded with a loyal following and a steady stream of curious customers.

------
peteretep
> tore away the wallpaper to expose a purposely covered electrical outlet

I think I'd have called the police

~~~
gpvos
At least a $50 bill for re-wallpapering.

------
aleph4
I don't see this as a purely financial decision. A coffee shop here in Austin
recent re-introduced Wifi after years of famously not having it. Presumably,
this was because they were lacking the business from the laptop crowd.

Obviously, use common sense and courtesy. Don't take up a large table. Don't
teleconference. Buy a something regularly if you plan to stay a while. Don't
bring outside food in.

Having said that, I welcome coffee shops that choose not to have wifi. But
frankly, I'm less likely to go to them.

------
Jaruzel
If I recall correctly, many Wi-Fi hotspot systems can employ a MAC address
block list. So that after X time, the laptop gets disconnected, and cannot
reconnect for Y time afterwards. Obviously this can be circumvented by savvy
users, but for non-technical remote workers, it's a good way to 'nudge' them
on their way.

I wonder why more places just don't employ this as a tactic?

~~~
eswat
> I wonder why more places just don't employ this as a tactic?

Because they want to run a cafe, not a networking hub. Your typical owner
isn’t going to be aware of turnkey solutions for this and would rather not
spend money on a manager wifi provider to solve this.

------
kevin_thibedeau
Play background cafe chatter through speakers.

~~~
dazc
Give discounts to mums with prams?

~~~
mrweasel
Cafes aren't fans of mums with prams either and for the same reason. They hang
around for hours while buying very little.

------
kylec
I think the problem isn't so much that people are using laptops in cafes, but
that some people will linger for _hours_ (usually on a laptop, but sometimes
not) taking up a seat that could be used by someone else. Maybe a loosely-
enforced 1-hour maximum loitering time might help to get more people cycling
through?

~~~
KozmoNau7
Cafes are places where people go to hang out with their friends, sometimes
talking for hours, even though they only bought one or two cups of coffee.

A couple of years ago, I reconnected with a childhood friend, after about 10
years of living far apart and only having very sporadic contact. We spent _6
hours_ talking about everything and nothing, after we finished our burgers.

I would have been extremely annoyed if the staff had decided to shoo us out of
there after an hour.

~~~
collyw
Who's annoyance takes priority, you hogging a table for 6 hours annoying the
owner, or you being annoyed when the owner kicked you out (or asked you to buy
something) after a couple of hours?

~~~
KozmoNau7
Honestly, we simply lost track of time.

But, the customer is always right. If it's not clearly signed that seating is
time-limited, I will assume it is not.

I have been at (rather popular, busy) restaurants where a waiter will politely
inform you that they have another reservation on our table 30 minutes later,
giving us time to finish up without feeling rushed. Perhaps it's just a polite
way to get rid of lingering customers, but we certainly didn't feel as if we
were thrown out.

In a lot of cases, they'll even inform you beforehand that a reservation is
for such and such time, usually 2 or 3 hours. That's perfectly fine and
upfront, I certainly don't mind that.

I don't go out to just eat and get the hell out. Conversation is absolutely a
part of going out to eat, and people don't appreciate feeling rushed.

------
MaxLeiter
In the Bay Area: A big-wig at Starbucks walked into one of the stores and
witnessed a teen with a video game station set-up. Few weeks later, all the
outlets were removed in order to discourage people from staying and working.
Even with the change, the place is still constantly packed with people
studying/working

~~~
RandallBrown
That seems counter to one of Starbucks corporate ideals, which is having
Starbucks be your "third place."

[https://www.fastcompany.com/887990/starbucks-third-place-
and...](https://www.fastcompany.com/887990/starbucks-third-place-and-creating-
ultimate-customer-experience)

------
golergka
Anticafes. I was lucky enough to visit one of the first one (the whole idea
originated in Moscow), and it's a wonderful cost-effective answer to the
traditional idea of a cafe: just charge visitors for time on a fixed scale and
provide all the snacks, beverages and entertainment for free.

~~~
tobyhinloopen
In major western cities (EG Amsterdam) there are places you can rent a
workspace. It is like a café, but charged by the hour.

~~~
golergka
Anticafes are more of an entertainment place, with many people meeting with
friends, playing board games and other stuff like that. Many freelance workers
I know prefer cafes and anticafes to co-working spaces exactly because of this
laidback, unofficial atmosphere.

------
nsb1
There's probably a market for a table surface that's just uneven enough to
make a laptop wobble, but with large enough flat spaces for small plates or
coffee mugs. Maybe some raised metal domes/rivets of slightly different
heights placed strategically on the tabletops.

~~~
rocky1138
You may be interested in "unpleasant design":
[https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/unpleasant-design-
hos...](https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/unpleasant-design-hostile-
urban-architecture/)

Personally my feeling is that this is the wrong direction for society to go.

------
sebringj
You have to wonder how its sustainable though if you have people just sitting
there taking up space, not paying. I work remotely and I see this and have
been wondering for years. Just because something is a norm doesn't make it
profitable or just makes sense for business owners. You are essentially
loitering at some point and if there was a way to monitor time without it
being awkward and also profitable, I'm all for that. This is the only venue
where its been culturally acceptable to be a freeloader. Totally against the
grain here I guess.

------
mywittyname
This problem is really a business opportunity.

Each purchase earns 30 minutes of Wifi. After that, you have to pay like
$0.008/minute for it. Just have them setup a credit card when they log online.

------
CaliforniaKarl
I wonder how often places will change up their music as a way to shift things.

The example I'm thinking of is Philz in Sunnyvale. Starting some time around
the new year, every time I've been there they've been playing much harder &
louder music.

When I'm at a place, I prefer to be there without headphones, to show that I'm
not completely disconnecting from the outside world. But with some of the
music that's been playing, it's really hard to do, and so I've been avoiding
it for the past month or so.

~~~
Mediterraneo10
> Every time I've been there they've been playing much harder & louder music.

This is the trend across cafes in my city in Romania. It is not clear to me
what the motivation is: the staff just say that they have been instructed to
keep the music playing at all times and at a constant volume. Is it to
discourage people from staying long? Or do the owners believe that you need to
have loud dance music playing at all times in order to attract people? It’s
just sad that we are losing the Central European tradition of cafes as quiet,
intellectual places where one could stay for a long time with a book or pen
and paper.

------
wink
Maybe I'm the outlier but I've "just sat down" to have a coffee and stare into
the abyss like three times in my life. Either I'm there with friends or I need
to kill an hour or two and work. In the latter case I have a laptop and in the
former case I'm not alone and wouldn't ver take out the laptop.

Either it's purely WTF or in some cafes it must be really bad with the people
working for hours, I've hardly noticed them here where I live.

------
sillypog
Berkeley is tackling this issue with a “back on the street by the end of the
day” approach to prosecuting laptop thefts.

They also have a game cafe where you pay $5 an hour to sit and play board
games. I’ve never seen anyone whip out their laptop instead but that would be
a pretty cheap coworking option.

------
randyrand
Why not just charge patrons per hour spent in the cafe? Is it really that bad
of a business model?

~~~
paps
In France we have Anticafe[1]. They charge 5€ per hour spent there in exchange
for unlimited wifi, coffee and pastries.

As I understand it they're quite successful. They have opened multiple new
cafes in Paris' central neighborhoods.

[1] [https://www.anticafe.eu/](https://www.anticafe.eu/)

------
soapdog
I have been a remote worker for more than 10 years and I love coffee shops.
Here in Brazil, coffee is a big part of our culture, so much that we don't
even think about it very much as it is a part of our lives since we're young
(note: yes, all generalization is wrong and of course there are many
Brazilians who don't drink coffee but on average we do).

Coffee shops has always been my favorite working places. Here in Niterói
(sister city of Rio), I know basically all the coffee shops in walking
distance from my home and their owners. We became friends after spending long
long hours in their shops to the point that they routinely reach out to me and
other frequent customers for opinions and health checks about their business.

I try to occupy a two-seat table if possible but in cases where none is
available I will move to a larger table. I always buy coffee and usually
something to eat, if I stay long hours, I try to keep ordering stuff every now
and then. Sometimes I don't but since I go there multiple times a week, my
orders average out as being a good customer they want to keep.

On my favorite place, which has the amazing name of "Dice'n'Roll Coffee
Tales", they are a different kind of coffee shop. They have board games and
comics, two of my passions, and attract a lot of "geek" crowd. They have a
"pass" you need to buy if you're going to play games, there are multiple types
of "passes" depending on if the game is theirs or yours, and if you pay a bit
extra, all that amount of money is converted into food and drinks of your
choice, so basically it is a commitment to buy food and drinks.

During weekends and Fridays, which are the times when the house is usually at
full capacity, they ask that the remote workers also buy passes and if
possible, group together in tables instead of one on each table. Mostly
recurring clients are OK with this approach, those who are not, usually don't
come back, but I have seen this happening only once. The pass we all buy costs
USD 8 per day and all that becomes credit to buy stuff, so with that money, I
usually get a couple coffees and one ice tea. Usually we all end up spending
more than USD 8 at the end of the day and being grouped together on weekends
makes for great networking (also every now and then, we pick a game to play).

All that story to tell one thing, that some coffee shops are about building
community and getting people together. Not all places subscribe to the notion
that you need $X customers per hour paying $M or we go bankrupt. I see these
articles about coffee shops in New York that reduce everything to math. Let me
tell everyone one advise, "if you do the math, you'd never open a coffee
shop", those are really hard to maintain and keep afloat. I've seen dozen
shops come and go, the ones that remain open are the ones that will make
people welcome and cater to the remote workers, or groups of friends, or
whoever wants to make those shops a part of their lives.

------
billfruit
I haven't read the full article because of the paywall, but I do not find
sitting down with a laptop much different to sitting down with a book at the
café. If the smaller cafes are suffering, they could charge an hourly sitting
charge.

------
Double_a_92
More like "How to put off your paying customers and then complain that
business isn't going well".

~~~
foepys
People working on their laptops are actually not a paying customer. Yes, they
might come in and buy a single coffee but then they sit in a corner for 3
hours and occupy a seat that could go to other customers that are actually
buying things that make a cafe money.

It also has something to do with atmosphere. A cafe should have light chatter
and people socializing. If the majority is sitting around in silence, it takes
away from the special feeling a cafe normally has. I could get coffee at home
for a fraction of the price.

~~~
anonytrary
> it takes away from the special feeling a cafe normally has

If people start using Cafes differently, why hold them to a forgotten
standard? Cafes should see a business opportunity in that they can align
themselves further with the needs of the consumer. Either that, or the
consumer walks.

~~~
oneeyedpigeon
It's up to the cafe owner, really. If they want a cafe with a certain type of
atmosphere, it's reasonable for them to take measures to achieve it.

~~~
anonytrary
Yeah, but Darwin resumes. Places that don't make it convenient to pull out a
laptop might not see as much traffic in 2050.

~~~
probably_wrong
It could also happen the other way around: places that don't discourage people
from "abusing" their hospitality might not survive in such a competitive line
of business.

Open, unrestricted wifi comes to mind as an example.

------
greggarious
Weird how HN is very libertarian and supportive of the idea business owners
should be able to set rules in their business... until it interferes with them
parking for 5 hours with a 3 dollar Americano.

~~~
grzm
> _" Weird how HN is ..."_

Please just leave generalizations like this out of conversation. HN is more
than just the comments that catch your eye or those who choose to comment on a
particular submission. You yourself choose to be a part of HN. Would you
ascribe these same attributes to yourself? Or those that other commenters
mention when they make similar generalizations? There are plenty of comments
in the threads for this submission which indicate that there is no consensus
around the topic.

~~~
greggarious
>HN is more than just the comments that catch your eye or those who choose to
comment on a particular submission. You yourself choose to be a part of HN.
Would you ascribe these same attributes to yourself?

Yes, but I'd describe myself as left-libertarian (to put it on the political
compass), whereas a large part of HN is hanging out in the bottom-right.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_compass](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_compass)

