
Tesla Model 3 Ramp Up Aims to Compete with BMW 3 and Mercedes C - devy
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-27/tesla-model-3-ramp-up-aims-to-crush-bmw-and-mercedes
======
pasta
Then I think they should also ramp up build quality because that doesn't match
BMW or Mercedes at all.

~~~
mi100hael
RTFA

 _> Tesla also gets to pick from the best, most reliable suppliers. When the
carmaker first built the Model S, suppliers assumed it would never sell more
than 3,000 units and the company would eventually go bankrupt, according to
Musk. That’s changed. It “went from basically getting like the worst team on
second-tier suppliers to getting the best team on first tier suppliers,” he
said in February. “Really big difference.”_

~~~
sspyder
CEO of company in question claims that now they get the bet teams from best
suppliers... That have already been working with their competitors for years.

RTFA won't help you consider sources and how much salt to ingest with their
words.

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hkmurakami
For reference, BMW 3 and 4 series sales in the US has been in the range of
100,000-150,000 units/year

[http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-
data/bmw/bmw-3-series-4...](http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-
data/bmw/bmw-3-series-4-series/)

~~~
tedmiston
There are also tons of used 3 series on the market though.

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dstaley
I think it's great that Tesla is attacking the market top down, but I'm
honestly more excited for the Toyota Camry of electric vehicles. The total
cost of ownership of a $35k Model 3 is probably lower than the TCO for a $23k
Camry, but until electric vehicles are positioned as alternatives to
affordable gas vehicles, I don't see EVs getting that much market penetration.

~~~
pc86
I desperately want a Tesla, but we don't have a garage and I'm not having a
charging station installed on a public sidewalk. Short of eating lunch
exclusively next to gas stations with a charging station, or having something
installed on the exterior of my home and running an extension cable into the
street, I'm not sure I have any viable options.

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holydude
For those blabbering about build quality. Well compromises. I cant stand the
shitty infotainment systems in any car be it cheap kia or high end bmw. All of
them suck and are ridiculous because they are made by conservative people that
do not understand consumers. Software is the new king and this is where
america has such an incredible advantage compared to traditional european
manufacturers that it is almost unbelievable. Interior and the choice of
materials can be changed and improved but building a good sw experience and
ecosystem is so incredibly hard even for IT companies (Samsung for example)
that people are afraid of any incestments.We are in an era where a lot of
people simply can ignore some squeaky dashboards but buying a platform for
convenient data consumption will be a deciding factor for many future
customers.

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Neliquat
Not hard. The iSeries is an unmitigated clusterfsck. I still feel like
electric is just pushing the pollution somewhere else, but I am glad to see
the tech advance. I continue to have doubts that the model 3 will be the
electric peoples car however.

~~~
TeMPOraL
> _I still feel like electric is just pushing the pollution somewhere else_

In a way it is, but that's the point. Even with fossil fuels, centralized
energy production is _much_ more efficient than every car having its own
combustion engine, and then electricity is also flexible enough to enable you
to switch to green/renewable sources without change for the car and its
supporting infrastructure. In a way, electricity is energy abstracted away
from the means of its production.

~~~
oblio
I used to think that way, too. And then I remembered that the cheapest form of
power generation is using coal, which is extremely abundant. I also remembered
that power plants have an expected life span of 50+ years and people are
against closing down things which are have already sunk their original cost
and now are cheap, effective and provide lots of jobs.

It's really hard to say which is the lesser of two evils.

~~~
heygrady
Coal isn't the cheapest [1]. Natural gas is cheaper because of fracking.
Renewables have been reported to be cheaper than fossil fuels for the first
time in 2016 [2]. Electric vehicles are cleaner than gasoline cars almost
regardless of where the electricity comes from [3]. I think in Missouri EV are
on-par with gas because Missouri has the dirtiest power plants.

[1] [http://wolfstreet.com/2016/06/13/why-us-coal-production-
coll...](http://wolfstreet.com/2016/06/13/why-us-coal-production-collapsed-to-
lowest-level-since-1981/)

[2] [https://qz.com/871907/2016-was-the-year-solar-panels-
finally...](https://qz.com/871907/2016-was-the-year-solar-panels-finally-
became-cheaper-than-fossil-fuels-just-wait-for-2017/)

[3] [http://midwestenergynews.com/2016/04/20/minnesota-study-
chal...](http://midwestenergynews.com/2016/04/20/minnesota-study-challenges-
coal-car-claims-about-electric-vehicles/)

~~~
oblio
Ok, natural gas is cheaper. Great, we've just moved the goal posts from "hell"
to "purgatory", since fracking is still very harmful for the environment.

My main point was that a centralized environment comes with its own downsides,
the main one being inertia.

~~~
heygrady
Renewable power generation may already be cost competitive with fossil fuels
[1]. It's gaining popularity in developing nations for this reason [6].

Natural gas, which is leaked heavily during fracking [2], is an order of
magnitude more harmful than CO2 in the short term [3]. But it breaks down far
faster in the atmosphere [4] and is comparatively better than coal when it's
burned [5]. Thankfully, fossil fuels are losing to cleaner technologies [6].

Cheap renewables, like solar, allow EV owners to opt-out of centralized power
generation and charge their cars with clean power [7]. One could argue that
this is the entire business model of Tesla [8].

[1]
[http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/energy/power/re...](http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/energy/power/renewable-
power-generation-technologies-are-now-cost-competitive-with-fossil-fuels-
lloyds-register/articleshow/57064173.cms)

[2] [https://thinkprogress.org/methane-leaks-erase-climate-
benefi...](https://thinkprogress.org/methane-leaks-erase-climate-benefit-of-
fracked-gas-countless-studies-find-8b060b2b395d)

[3] [https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/understanding-global-
warmin...](https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/understanding-global-warming-
potentials)

[4] [https://www.quora.com/What-happens-to-methane-once-it-is-
rel...](https://www.quora.com/What-happens-to-methane-once-it-is-released-
into-the-atmosphere)

[5] [http://www.ucsusa.org/clean-energy/coal-and-other-fossil-
fue...](http://www.ucsusa.org/clean-energy/coal-and-other-fossil-
fuels/environmental-impacts-of-natural-gas)

[6] [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-
environment/wp/20...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-
environment/wp/2016/03/24/clean-energy-is-winning-the-race-against-fossil-
fuels-but-the-planet-is-still-losing/?utm_term=.75f89092ab96)

[7] [https://www.wired.com/2011/11/evs-go-off-
grid/](https://www.wired.com/2011/11/evs-go-off-grid/)

[8] [https://www.wired.com/2016/06/tesla-solar-city-elon-
musk/](https://www.wired.com/2016/06/tesla-solar-city-elon-musk/)

------
sixdimensional
If electric really displaces gasoline/petrol, we are going to need a lot more
charging stations. I work at a company that had a larger installation of
charging stations (relative to my locality) and the Tesla takes a long time to
charge; i.e. there are almost never enough charging stations. And there aren't
enough supercharging/fast charging stations.

Not to mention the fact that electricity gets surprisingly expensive at peak
rates. I recognize we are doing this to try to reduce carbon emissions, but I
find it important to remember that energy is neither created nor destroyed
according to the laws of thermodynamics. So, we are only transitioning from
one form of energy to another, which has its own pros and cons. Of course,
electric "seems" to have more pros then cons, but it definitely still has cons
(heat generation, lithium/battery tech byproducts/electricity generation
byproducts, etc.), and no energy source is really ever "free".

Disclaimer: I don't have a Tesla but do drive a plug-in hybrid. It feels like
a nice balance of gas/electric at the current time.

~~~
ebbv
> If electric really displaces gasoline/petrol, we are going to need a lot
> more charging stations.

This is true but not to the degree you might assume. I've had a LEAF for
almost 3 years now and it has been charged outside of my garage maybe a dozen
times. My wife drives it to work every day.

It really depends on people's habits vs. the range of the cars they buy. We
are seeing 200+ mile range on affordable cars (Model 3, Chevy Bolt.) If the
standard range is that or higher then most people will not _need_ a charging
station outside of their garage.

The charging stations will still be convenient and people will ask for them
for that reason, but they won't be _necessary_ like they would be if we saw
widespread adoption of the first generation LEAF with a realistic 60-80 mile
range. Then more people would _need_ a charging station at work to be able to
commute. But that's not what's happening, so I think charging stations outside
the home won't be necessary so much as desirable.

What _will_ be needed for wider adoption is charging stations at apartment
complexes and condos. That's one thing that is really holding EVs back and may
hold non-homeowners back from being able to get them.

~~~
sixdimensional
I have coworkers that drive the Leaf first and later gen. What they report to
me is it works great until those times it doesn't work and you get stuck
somewhere waiting hours to charge. Also, the cost of electricity is surprising
to them as it is not as cheap (still cheaper usually than gas) as they
expected.

Don't get me wrong, we are closer all the time to resolving all the concerns.
I think we just rounding the bend. Hopefully Tesla and co will keep up the
pressure for better alternatives.

Let's hope that the current government trends don't set us back years in the
progress we are making.

I am optimistic that the electric trend has enough momentum that it will
continue, but we have seen huge shifts in automotive tech happen before (for
example, rubber tire conglomerates and freedom of cars shifted us away from
mass transit in the past).

~~~
ebbv
> it works great until those times it doesn't work and you get stuck somewhere
> waiting hours to charge

If you run out of charge and get stuck somewhere that's no more the Leaf's
fault than it is a gasoline car's fault when you run out of gas.

In ~3 years that has happened exactly zero times to me or my wife.

> Also, the cost of electricity is surprising to them as it is not as cheap
> (still cheaper usually than gas) as they expected.

That varies based on where you live but for us it costs about $0.02/mile to
drive the Leaf. Whereas our Honda CR-V which gets ~30 mpg costs about
$0.08/mile right now. Gas prices are artificially low in the US right now,
when they go back up it will be even more drastic (and of course if your car
gets worse than 30mpg then it will be worse, or better if you get better
mileage.) In order to reach $0.02/mile with a gas car I'd have to get 115mpg,
though. (Gas is ~$2.30/gal in my town currently.)

> Let's hope that the current government trends don't set us back years in the
> progress we are making.

This is my main concern as well. Where I live the state government just passed
a really regressive fee for EV registrations.

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Aron
Tesla doesn't need to compete with either of them. They just want to sell more
cars. Any of a number of ways to do that.

