
Steve Jobs and Jeff Bezos meet "Ginger" (2003) - omilu
http://hbswk.hbs.edu/archive/3533.html
======
Tiktaalik
>"I think the emphasis of this conversation is wrong," said Bezos. "You have a
product so revolutionary, you'll have no problem selling it. The question is,
are people going to be allowed to use it?"

Bezos and Jobs were right. Bicycles have been around since the 19th century
and yet city planners are still struggling against mainstream political
opinion to be able to set aside dedicated space for their use. If most cities
currently only barely tolerate bicycles, the Segway was certainly dead on
arrival.

I think Jobs' idea for starting small at universities was a bit better of an
idea than Bezos' idea of starting in a small country. Davis California for
example is the most bike friendly city in America (20% mode share). That would
have been the perfect place to start.

~~~
martincmartin
_Bicycles have been around since the 19th century and yet city planners are
still struggling against mainstream political opinion to be able to set aside
dedicated space for their use._

To be fair, in the U.S., bicycle use has increased dramatically in the last
decade or two, before the recent trend of adding bike lanes. Increased traffic
congestion, including from cutbacks in public transit and city planning that
emphasizes safety over car speed, have made cars less practical and increased
biking a lot.

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mjfl
A (feeble) plug for my hometown, Manchester NH (where Dean Kamen is currently
located): I just visited the Millyards and they have apartments there that
would cost $3500/month in Boston (more in SF) for $1400/month, Dean just
pledged $300 million to biotech startups right there. Not much nightlife but
not many distractions either, and they've put these beautiful restaurants in
the old mills. It's about the same distance to Boston as Palo Alto is to SF.
So if you want to drop off the grid for a while to focus on developing a
product it's a great place to get started. Yeah.

~~~
forgottenpass
_So if you want to drop off the grid for a while_

Is this just trash talking a hometown you were glad to leave for the glamor of
a big city, or do people actually think like this?

I've lived in big cites, and rural Maine, so I understand the fear of missing
out that comes with it. But it's possible to have a social life anywhere, and
we work online. Is there some startup culture thing that I'm not exposed to
where zero commute and physically rubbing elbows is paradoxically more
important than in fields less conductive to remote work?

~~~
mjfl
I think that's just me projecting my worries about what people think about
where I'm from. There is evidence that people do think that way. See the
responder who said he would not want to live there because there are too many
white people.

------
pavlov
Segway and Google Glass went through similar product image trajectories:
immense pre-launch hype, then turned into a dorky status symbol perceived as
being for tech-obsessed rich buffoons only, and riddled by regulatory problems
concerning its public use.

Yet Snap seems to be doing quite well with its Spectacles resurrection of the
Google Glass concept. Maybe Segway will also come back once someone cracks the
design and youth-friendly branding?

~~~
rasz_pl
it already happened for Segway, here is a documentary of the design process
from the future/past:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkyLnWm1iCs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkyLnWm1iCs)

and here are the products:
[https://www.walmart.com/tp/hoverboard](https://www.walmart.com/tp/hoverboard)

------
mastazi
> "Its shape is not innovative, it's not elegant, it doesn't feel
> anthropomorphic," said Jobs, ticking off three of his design mantras.

I was wondering what exactly did Jobs mean when he said that the design was
not "anthropomorphic". I mean, the shape of an iPhone does look very different
from that of a human figure.

EDIT: perhaps he meant that it wasn't ergonomic?

~~~
tunesmith
I think he used the word more abstractly, like in terms of having a direct
human interface to it, like using your finger on the iPhone's touchscreen
almost like turning the page of a book, etc. I don't know how that would
translate to a Segway, though - maybe something that made motion feel more
immediate than just leaning.

~~~
sangnoir
> I don't know how that would translate to a Segway, though - maybe something
> that made motion feel more immediate than just leaning.

 _South Park_ had a design idea for revolutionary transportation that had a
more "direct human interface"[1].

1\. The IT Bike. NSFW:
[http://southpark.wikia.com/wiki/IT](http://southpark.wikia.com/wiki/IT)

------
xt00
Using a Segway on a college campus would be great.. Wish they had convinced
campuses to buy them for students.

The unveiling was so lame.. People wearing khakis and super lame helmets and
going over little bumps and looking so non-cool.. I watched way back when and
was like... Uh... No.. First should not have helmets on.. Should have been
very attractive people and should have showed how quickly they could get from
point A to point B in style and comfort and convenience..

~~~
seanp2k2
Some companies in the Bay had them for getting around campus and eventually
got rid of them because of too many incidents, so the helmet and small bumps
thing was probably for the best. I rode one and it seriously goes faster than
I'd be comfortable ditching it. It's also very possible to fling yourself off,
tip over, etc. I'm not generally comfortable with a transportation device
until I find the limits (so I know where they are), but it was scarier than it
should have been. You have to basically trust it not to slam your head into
the pavement, but I guess I've just been around dodgy electronics long enough
to not be so naive.

Then again, now we have electric longboards, which are like an order of
magnitude more dangerous. At least with the longboard, you still have 4 wheels
if all the electronics give out. Then again, some of the DIY stuff out
there...I would not trust my life to a rPi descending a hill in SF with
traffic. The foot brake always works.

------
Camillo
I would say that ultimately the Segway was a failure, but that perception is
partially affected by the hyperbolic hype that preceded it. I wonder what its
own inventors think.

How popular did they expect it to get? How did they expect people to use it?
How did they not foresee the backlash to its incredible dorkiness? Would a
smaller, handle-less form factor (like the Chinese clones now known as
"hoverboards") have been possible with the battery technology of the time?

~~~
colanderman
Riding a Segway telegraphs either "I am fit enough to balance standing on a
moving platform, yet rich enough to drop several grand on a vehicle whose only
benefit over a bicycle is not having to move my legs," or "I have respiratory
issues." At least today's so-called "hoverboards" and electric skateboards are
an order of magnitude more affordable (and transportable).

I wonder if an inexpensive automated rental model (à la HubWay or other
bicycle sharing systems) could have been successful in negating the "rich
douche" image by eliminating the price barrier. As it was, the multi-grand
price tag and overall impracticality screamed "entitled".

~~~
seanp2k2
Mall cops and airport security also have them now, so that ship has more or
less sailed. They still do Segway tours across the country in tourist trap
areas. They're a novelty with some limited niche commercial uses.

------
jonheller
This makes me miss Steve Jobs, a lot. So much of what he says seemed dead on
about the struggles Segway faced. For all his faults, I think he had a great
sense about what consumers wanted and loved about a product, as well as what
would frustrate them or turn them off, and I think it's been one of Apple's
struggles since he passed.

------
hugs
"suspected, as did Dean, that Doerr was setting them up for an ambush on his
home turf"

Why the ambush? Was John Doerr previously trying to deliver the same message
(that the product wasn't ready), but needed Jeff Bezos and Steve Jobs'
firepower to finally convince Dean Kamen? The article only hints at it, but
this sounds like there's a bit more drama in the Doerr/Kamen relationship.

------
Hondor
It's hard to believe that if it was really going to take over the world, it
would have mattered at all how it was launched, what the initial design of it
looked like, who got a meeting the "king of Singapore", etc. Those sound like
elements of a fad, not a lasting and significant part of technology.

------
pinewurst
A really good book about this is "Code Name Ginger" which is not the blind
glorification that such books can be.

[https://www.amazon.com/Code-Name-Ginger-Behind-
Segway/dp/157...](https://www.amazon.com/Code-Name-Ginger-Behind-
Segway/dp/1578516730/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1484699980&sr=8-1&keywords=code+name+ginger)

------
truftruf
"Screw the lead times. You don't have a great product yet!" \- Steve Jobs

Advice every struggling startup needs to hear. Great products are rare and the
best way to succeed is not to settle on product quality.

~~~
jayjay71
But how do you know you have a great product before you ship? Until you have
paying customers, you don't have a real feedback loop.

~~~
adamlett
_But how do you know you have a great product before you ship? Until you have
paying customers, you don 't have a real feedback loop._

If you need customer feedback in order for you to know what to build, what
business do you have building _anything_? How could you ever hope to innovate?

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redsummer
I think seeing pictures of Woz on his Segway put me off the idea. He seemed to
balloon since getting one.

