

Stop Brogramming - gisikw
http://hasmanyreasons.com/2012/03/21/stop-brogramming/

======
andrewvc
This is proof that all you need to get up the front page on HN is a title that
matches the current zeitgeist.

The article itself is terrible, making mountains out of molehills. I'm someone
who'd never even be confused as a brogrammer, but someone explain to me what's
negative about this "Drinking beer, lifting weights, picking up women, and
kicking out a new JSON parser before dinner. ". That actually sounds like a
damn good day in my book.

On top of its ridiculous hand wringing, the article is meandering and
bizarrely attaches network TV and Louis C.K. to its thesis.

Forget brogrammers, this is the kind of reactionary, overly-P.C buzzkill I'd
really hate to work with.

~~~
LaGrange
"picking up women"

This is what's wrong with this. I mean, I do know it's a pretty good day for a
chauvinistic dude, but that's objectification of women as pleasure devices.

"overly-P.C buzzkill" Aw. Someone ruined making fun of women for you.

~~~
ArtB
Sorry, but what exactly is sexist about trying to get laid? Not trolling, or
sarcastic. It honestly seemed like an event that tried to combine the things
that a certain demographic of people like to do into one event. I don't see
how different this is from a Sushi buffet-dubstep-LAN event.

If it was a networking conference for high-powered female C*Os and they were
advertising that the waiter's were all young buff men I wouldn't get up in
arms.

Interesting story: I went for dinner out with a friend (both males) and all
the girls (we saw only women waitresses their) were ~20ish and in small black
dresses. Our waitress was one of these. However, our food and drinks were
brought to us by men that looked like tax accounts. Then we spotted a male
waiter, he was serving a table of young women... and he was built (biceps with
a diameter of a strip of bacon), tanned, and coifed, but their food was
brought but those same tax accounts. That's not sexism, but sex appeal in
marketting and was used gender neutrally, and it seemed the ratio of male vs
female servers was reflective of the patrons.

~~~
batista
_the issue is that the event effectively excluded women programmers- or at
least made it clear that they weren't wanted._

OK, and that is an issue because?

Can't one just make an event with a SPECIFIC target audience in mind?
Especially, if, hypocrisy aside, the audience was gonna be male populated
anyway, even if a semi-naked Brad Pitt served drinks.

 _Perhaps if the flyer boasted "hot chicks and buff dudes serving you drinks"
it might be a little more equal. Horrifying, but equal._

And when does that need for "equality" stop when planning a SPECIFIC event?
Even if they did what you suggest, someone could come and say: "this event is
terrible, it excludes gays by having hetero male and female servers, we also
need hot gay guys serving drinks". And then lesbians.

~~~
Cushman
One can host whatever event one likes. One can market it however one likes.
Similarly, one's funders can choose to withdraw their sponsorship if they feel
they don't wish to support one's politics, and one's community can castigate
one for enforcing damaging messages.

Hooray for freedom!

------
invisible
Apology from Sqoot: <http://blog.sqoot.com/>

Seems they were trying to hard and it just backfired. The humor wasn't
intended as a negative thing but it's good that they apologize to clear the
air of uncertainty.

~~~
dfxm12
Exactly.

 _Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity._

The social awkwardness of their joke kinda shows the divergent nature of the
"brogrammer".

~~~
kstenerud
I actually know Avand personally, and his humor is often awkward, as is common
in many geeks.

I can see where he was trying to go with the joke (exactly where he said he
was trying to go in his equally awkward apology), but once you trip up on a
sensitive topic, people immediately arrange themselves to be maximally
offended. Once this happens, anything short of a blood sacrifice is
insufficient, and woe be to anyone who fails to make a 100% flawless apology!

So for the socially awkward, the result of a failed joke is a bad situation
that it's impossible to get out of, because nobody is willing to accept that
there exist people who are less than perfect when it comes to the social
dance.

~~~
cgoddard
Its fine to be less than perfect and to make mistakes, but if someone makes a
mistake large and in public, they should apologize for it. Spending the least
little amount of time talking to someone who was offended should be enough to
clue in the clueless, and ensure a genuine apology.

An insincere apology shows that the person apologizing really cares less _why_
anyone actually was offended, and is just as likely to say something equally
offensive again.

~~~
kstenerud
Once again, it comes down to a difference between what each person considers
an appropriate apology. What you usually see (including in this case) is an
apology, followed by people arguing over whether the apology was sufficient or
not. "Sincerity" is gauged based on whether you think the apology is good
enough. If not, the usual response is to say that the offender obviously
didn't care enough and is being insincere.

------
steele
This is article is a bunch of unrelated nonsense

------
skrebbel
Or, as James Iry said on twitter a few days ago: Brogrammer is just short for
B programmer

------
mfieldhouse
Girls and beer, oh how offensive, big deal

------
lwhi
If you have a long running sitcom, what you're saying on a weekly basis
provides a frame of reference for jokes. The audience knows what to expect.

If you're adding a joke to a simple advert, there's absolutely no way you can
predict the way something subversive will be received .. especially when the
object of the joke is an under-represented key part of the audience.

Very silly mistake.

------
ekm2
"lifting weights" What is wrong with that?Must we all be scrawny?

------
motoford
This guy titles his blog post "Stop Brogramming" then spends the whole article
defending brogramming and sexism.

Definitely not front page material.

------
batista
What exactly is sexism? Behaving as sexes DO exist, and, for example, men can
like the look of certain females? Well, sexes DO exist, and men do like the
look of certain females. To state otherwise would be hypocrisy.

And it's not like liking women or wanting to go to a bar that has pretty
waitresses (and vice versa for women) if somehow taking advantage of the other
sex. No more than wanting to go to a concert is taking advantage of people
with nice voices and musical skills.

So, are we disallowing sexual desire and/or lust? If not, we are just
advocating hypocrisy. I.e think it, but don't say/act as if you think it.

Seems to my European mind that Americans will be puritans whatever their
political inclinations are. If they are of the Bible inclination (Bible belt
etc), they will be all serious, sex is evil, abolish sexy looks, etc.

If they are of the liberal inclination (democrats etc), they will be all
serious, sex is insulting, sexual references show intolerance and or
exploitation, we should hide sexuality when in polite/professional company,
etc.

Once a puritan, always a puritan.

~~~
cgoddard
There are proper places for sexuality, objectification, etc. A professional /
workplace environment isn't one of them. It makes people uncomfortable and can
contribute to a hostile work environment. The fact is people don't have as
much choice over their coworkers as their friends, and they can't easily avoid
unwanted interactions as easily as they can in choosing their social circles.

As far as sexism goes when you make assumptions about your audience, you make
anyone who doesn't fit those assumptions feel unwelcome. It doesn't mean you
should never make assumptions, but always be aware who you are excluding and
if you have a good reason for excluding them.

~~~
batista
_There are proper places for sexuality, objectification, etc. A professional /
workplace environment isn't one of them. It makes people uncomfortable and can
contribute to a hostile work environment._

Well, that might be a cultural thing though. We don't particularly care about
such things in other parts of the world (that doesn't mean we run around naked
in the workplace).

And actually neither did the US until like the nineties or so.

------
ninjac0der
Yeah, stop acting like primates everyone!

