
Deep Sleep May Help the Brain Clear Alzheimer's Toxins - spking
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/10/31/775068218/how-deep-sleep-may-help-the-brain-clear-alzheimers-toxins
======
theli0nheart
I've been dealing with a hormonal issue that's been negatively impacting my
deep sleep for almost two years.

There was a week in early February this year, right after surgery, where I
felt like a million bucks. Normally, I have a pretty low-grade chronic
headache (yeah, it's as horrible as it sounds). However, that week, my head
felt "clear". I don't know how else to explain it other than I felt like my
brain had been washed. I was going to bed at 9-9:30pm, and waking up at 5am,
and felt incredible. I reverted not long afterwards, and believe I recently
figured out the root of the issue (fingers crossed!), but I 100% believe that
you need deep sleep to function well. IMO, it's not sufficient to get light
and REM sleep; deep sleep is when true brain recovery occurs. I feel like I
should know; before I started treatment, I would go to bed at 9-9:30pm and
sleep until 8 and still feel exhausted. You need quality sleep in addition to
quantity.

Wrist-based sleep trackers are basically useless, FWIW. I've been using one
pretty consistently since before my health issues started and they really
can't discern the difference between light/REM/deep sleep phases. If there's
anything which mirrors how I feel after waking up in the morning, it's HR dip,
but even that isn't 100% reliable.

~~~
icotyl
> _I 've been dealing with a hormonal issue that's been negatively impacting
> my deep sleep for almost two years._

Also, not getting enough sleep can wreak havoc on your hormones.

"Men who sleep 5 hours a night have significantly smaller testicles than men
who sleep 7 hours or more. Men who routinely sleep 4-5 hours a night will have
a level of testosterone of someone 10 years their senior."

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MuIMqhT8DM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MuIMqhT8DM)

~~~
ASalazarMX
My god, popular wisdom right here. In my country, a good-for-nothing, lazy
person is called 'huevón', which means 'someone with big testicles' in
Spanish. It's applied to both men and women, though.

~~~
gpas
Same as boludo in Argentina

~~~
ASalazarMX
¡Gracias! No estaba seguro de si eran equivalentes.

------
newsbinator
My watch says I get between 20 minutes and 70 minutes of deep sleep a night,
out of 7 ~ 9 hours total.

I've tried Magnesium, Melatonin, turning off all devices hours before bed,
turning off all lights hours before bed, sleeping in a cold room, etc.

I'm not overweight or unhealthy. I take in zero caffeine, zero alcohol/zero
drugs. I do take a daily PPI.

I feel tired a lot, and I seem to feel more tired on days when my watch
(Xiaomi Smart Band 3) reports the lowest deep sleep scores (I consider how I'm
feeling first, then look at the sleep score to compare).

I want more deep sleep, but try as I might I don't know how to make it happen.

~~~
jryan49
Do you get good, exhausting exercise? I've found that's the magic formula for
me.

~~~
newsbinator
Great question. I suppose not exhausting enough! Getting my heart rate up from
walking rapidly up steep hills, doing low-weight squats, pushups/bicep curls,
etc seems to have no effect.

I guess I should try lifting heavy, consistently over weeks, and see if that
does anything.

~~~
PKop
Higher intensity, which doesn't have to come from heavier weight per say, but
increased power, work/time meaning total work, higher weight up _or_ time
down.

HIIT/interval/crossfit style are prime examples of in my opinion the most
efficient way to achieve "exhausting" workouts (lowest time commitment, and
with group gym style, lowest mental effort to formulate workout plans; it's
all left to the trainer).

------
maxheadroom
Surprised that this is the first comment about this on here but we _really_
need a better turn-of-phrase than "toxins" because kind of language validates
the fads going around that are harming people - like the "get skinny in two
days!" diets or the anti-vax community.

Also, why do they use the term emphatically in the title of the article and
then state, " _...presumably removing toxins associated with Alzheimer 's,
researchers reported Thursday in the journal Science._" That comes across as,
" _We don 't actually know what this is doing but we're going to take a guess
and just run with it._"

In fact, from the abstract of the paper itself, " _Sleep is also associated
with increased interstitial fluid volume and clearance of metabolic waste
products. It is unknown why these processes co-occur and how they are
related._ "

I don't understand how metabolic waste products automatically equates to
"Alzheimer's toxins" nor how they're reaching these conclusions if they don't
understand their coincidence - whether accidental or intentional.

Can anyone help a stranger on the internets and connect these dots? =]

~~~
Nasrudith
Part of the issue is the vagueness is likely appropriate to both as we don't
know the depth. It is linked to Alzheimer's and its presence causes a negative
effect so it is contextually a toxin at least until narrowed down to a more
precise mechanism like say prions, inappropriate cell reactions, and/or
inappropriate oxidation levels.

Anyway that amateur explanation aside - the woo community is inherently
appropriative of things they don't understand - witness "quantum" anything
buzzwords outside of the physics or numerical context.

------
megous
I guess I can understand that moving fluid can at the very least dislodge
other material around it, but:

\- how do "the toxins" get out of the cerebro-spinal cavities

\- if the flow is not unidirectional (with new fluid comming in), why would
not the toxins just settle at slightly different place, after those fluid
movements end

\- how is the fluid itself cleaned

\- what about the blood-brain barrier

~~~
username90
I answered your questions based on what I gathered from wikipedia:

> how do "the toxins" get out of the cerebro-spinal cavities

It gets caught up in cerebrospinal fluid. Note sure if it is has to be
properly dissolved in it or if it also transports mechanically.

> if the flow is not unidirectional (with new fluid comming in), why would not
> the toxins just settle at slightly different place, after those fluid
> movements end

Cerebrospinal fluid is constantly being created and then deposited to the
blood stream. According to wikipedia you produce 500 mL a day and there is
125ml at any given time, so the cycling rate is pretty fast if we compare to
how long Alzheimer takes to form.

> how is the fluid itself cleaned

It is extremely filtered blood, so it is basically cleaned blood. In other
words it is cleaned in the creation step.

> what about the blood-brain barrier

Seems entirely unrelated, cerebrospinal fluid seems to be like its own
circulation flow where blood doesn't reach. I guess it basically being a lot
cleaner blood makes it another layer of protection for these parts of the
brain.

Source:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebrospinal_fluid##targetTex...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebrospinal_fluid##targetText=Cerebrospinal%20fluid%20\(CSF\)%20is%20a,absorbed%20in%20the%20arachnoid%20granulations).

~~~
megous
Thanks! Looks like this is also related:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glymphatic_system](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glymphatic_system)

------
tentboy
Anecdotal, but we have a family friend who has just been diagnosed with early
onset Alzheimer's.

She was a brilliant colorectal surgeon and highly regarded and referred in the
area but she also lived for her work, spending nights sleeping on the floor
under her desk for two hours before pulling another full day of work.

I am sure this lifestyle for the better part of 30 years took a toll on the
body and more and more I've been hearing about the lack of sleep being related
to Alzheimers

------
theNJR
Interesting how there’s a lot of sleep trouble on HN. Here’s mine, curious if
anyone has thoughts.

For over a year now I’ve been averaging around 5.9 hours of sleep. Usually I’m
up at 5am and can’t fall back asleep. Compounding this, bad nights I wake at 2
and it takes an hour to get back to sleep. Even then I’m up before 6.

So, two problems: always wake up early and often wake in the middle of the
night for an hour.

I can get my brain to spin up at a good level if I get six hours. If I get 5
hours the day is mostly ruined.

My Oura ring data doesn’t suggest sleep apnea and my wife says I don’t snore.
I’m not waking up super fresh - so it’s not like I’m rested after six hours. I
used to sleep just fine so I don’t think I have the genetic mutation that
makes you not need 8 hours. I just can’t sleep much more than six hours
lately.

I’ve tried all the usual things; last meal at 4:30, exercise in morning,
consistent bed time of 10pm, no devices after 9, cool room, no alcohol, black
out curtains, etc. I’ve tried every supplement you can think of. Phenibut will
prevent 2am wake ups but even with phenibut I can’t get more than 6.5 hours.
You also shouldn’t take that more than 2-3 times a week.

I’m not sure what to try next. I’d love to get back to 7-8 hours though.

~~~
throwaway_law
>Usually I’m up at 5am and can’t fall back asleep.

Do you drink alcohol regularly? Its counter intuitive but alcohol
simultaneously prevents people from entering deep sleep and can cause them to
wake up early.

~~~
munmaek
As I've gotten older I've realized this.

Generally I'm fine with 1-2 beers, but 3-4+ and I always wake up at ~5am with
a foggy head. And usually an ache in my arms.

------
dr_dshiv
Here's the Science paper they reference:
[https://science.sciencemag.org/content/366/6465/628](https://science.sciencemag.org/content/366/6465/628)

And here is the Dutch Design Week exhibition that explores how vibroacoustic
sound healing might promote similar effects through somatosensory entrainment
U(neuromodulation). The sound healing bit is only partially tongue-in-cheek.

[http://www.design-united.nl/rethinking-interaction/feel-
the-...](http://www.design-united.nl/rethinking-interaction/feel-the-vibe-
vibroacoustic-sound-healing-2-0/)

------
bvinc
I have always traditionally been someone who would stay up until 2am a few
times a week, and always been lacking in sleep. I've turned that around, along
with a lot of other healthy changes I've been making, along with diet,
exercise, and sauna use.

But the thing that's been an absolute game changer with sleep has been red
glasses. So the idea is that blue light and to a lesser extent green light,
both interfere with your brain's melatonin production. Everyone tells you to
avoid looking at screens or your phones after dark, but who actually manages
to do that? Also, these "night light" programs like flux just tone down the
blue light, they don't eliminate it. These glasses block almost all blue and
green light. They also have a barrier on the side so no light comes in through
the side.

Sure, these glasses make you look like a dork, but they're great. If I'm in
any state of lacking sleep, I find everything much less stimulating, and I get
tired really fast. But even better, I sleep like I went into a coma, and I
feel like I've been dreaming a lot more than usual.

There are tons of tips for sleeping better that I think all work, but from my
experimentation, the unnatural blue and green light after sun down is by far
the biggest problem that we all have.

Here are some examples of what I'm talking about.

[https://www.amazon.com/Sleep-Savior-Ultra-Disruptive-
Melaton...](https://www.amazon.com/Sleep-Savior-Ultra-Disruptive-
Melatonin/dp/B07CZ499J5/)

[https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07H44C8DT/](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07H44C8DT/)

------
andy_ppp
If people are interested in a 6h long conversation on everything to do with
sleep they could do much worse than listen to Matthew Walker on the Peter
Attia podcast:
[https://peterattiamd.com/matthewwalker1/](https://peterattiamd.com/matthewwalker1/)

~~~
theNJR
Such a good series.

------
milesvp
I havn’t been keeping references, but this isn’t the first paper I’ve seen
suggesting part of REM cycle is used to flush fluid build up in parts of the
brain, and that this flushing is necessary for high cognitive utilization.
Also, this flushing seems to be difficult or impossible without REM (though I
suspect vigorous exercise helps).

I wouldn’t be surprised if lack of sleep could help contribute to Alzheimer
symptoms, if not the actual disease side effects of brain structure
deterioration.

------
tluyben2
I do not sleep very long (when I wake up, that it is; usually dingdong after 7
hrs) but when I sleep I sleep very deep. I had fitbit saying 80% deep sleep
and my doctor told me to get tested for sleep apnea and other stuff but I just
sleep very deep; they found nothing. I also remember dreams (I can lucid dream
whenever I want; I spent a year training that when I was 18 and it is like
riding a bicycle) very vividly.

I am wondering if the lucid dream training I did made my sleeppatterns like
this; lucid dreaming is so much better than lsd or shrooms or games; it is
free, does not harm anything and you can do anything you want (fly, infinite
strength, immortal, ...) so I cannot wait to go to sleep every night.

~~~
cdolan
How did you “train” for this and how do you make it happen on demand?

~~~
tluyben2
The trick that works best (for me), when you feel your are going to fall
asleep, keep repeating, in your head, that you are are sleeping but you are
awake. It took me a month at the time to get some results; after half a year
it went mostly automatic. After that I have been able to do it without effort.

It takes patience though: the first 15-20 times you will likely just fall
asleep and remember nothing.

Outer body experience (OBE) books, although nonsense mostly, usually have very
thorough guides; I used one because I was convinced that what people call OBE
is actually lucid dreaming and I was right. You can train yourself with those
books (the one I had mostly had the above trick) and once in a while you will
sink through your bed and hang on the roof in the room below or you ‘visit
friends’ etc; obviously you are just dreaming but it is fun. You are awake
enough to realize what is going and to manipulate the situation.

------
aSplash0fDerp
This makes alot of sense. Our bodies are amazing and unique, but require a
little self-exploration to optimize (sometimes it takes extra work to get good
sleep).

This made the rounds a few years back, but its nice to see they are still at
it.

[https://www.npr.org/sections/health-
shots/2016/01/04/4606206...](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-
shots/2016/01/04/460620606/lack-of-deep-sleep-may-set-the-stage-for-
alzheimers)

------
dzhiurgis
Is there any link between cannabis use and deep sleep?

I find cannabis completely removes dreams from my sleep which come back very
vivid after stopping use. Many people online report the same.

~~~
buildzr
Yes, cannabis kills REM sleep pretty significantly.

------
pontusrehula
I have a practical kind of question about this kind of research. How do you
put a sleeping person in to an MRI machine without waking him/her up?

~~~
nabla9
Usually the fall asleep in the machine.

\- People selected don't have sleeping disorders. They must abstain from
caffeine and stimulants 24 hours before test.

\- Sleep deprivation may be used.

\- Ear plugs, active noise cancelation, possibly polyurethane hood in magnet
bore

\- lower spatial resolution and slower gradient switching speed

When you take measures outside MRI, you may have to play the MRI sound to get
comparable results.

------
tempsy
I have read benefits of fasting on Alheimers as well

~~~
etagobla
I laughed too hard at this

------
michaelborromeo
Sleep on an incline - use bed risers that raise the head of the bed 4-6
inches.

You’ll sleep better.

~~~
onemoresoop
Is that for gerd/acid reflux type of affections or it is generally better?

~~~
michaelborromeo
Both.

I haven’t done any actual tracking but others have.

There are studies linked at the bottom of this article:
[https://www.bulletproof.com/sleep/sleep-hacks/inclined-
bed-t...](https://www.bulletproof.com/sleep/sleep-hacks/inclined-bed-therapy-
sleep).

~~~
sandos
I just this day realized that I did not have any head- or sinus-ache when
waking up, and I had used a pillow for once.

An inclined bed would probably be even better.

------
aitchnyu
I have dust mite allergy and had infection-prone sinuses for years and lived
with a chronic feverish feeling. I recently had FESS, using endoscope blades
to clear passages. I slept great for a few weeks and then allergic symptoms
came back again giving me muscle aches and a racing heart. So I wake up
unrested. My Huawei band says I get recommended amount of deep sleep but deep
sleep continuity is lower than recommended. I am waiting for the dust mite
SLIT vaccine to kick in, it could take a year more. Till then I'm trying to
isolate the mites in bed.

~~~
deboflo
I had this exact issue and had a septoplasty procedure 4 years ago to fix it.
The results were truly life changing because I could breath without being
congested from dust mites. I had no idea how bad it was until I could breathe
after the procedure. I can recommend my ENT specialist if you are interested.
Getting this procedure cleared my nasal passages permanently and was probably
THE best decision of my life. I can focus now.

~~~
deboflo
Dr. Kasey Li [https://drkaseyli.org/](https://drkaseyli.org/)

~~~
aitchnyu
Thanks, but we are kinda thousands of kilometers apart!

~~~
deboflo
Then fly to Palo Alto and get the procedure done. It costs $5K. The recovery
time with Dr. Li is quick. I went back to work 2 days after the procedure. If
you are suffering from lack of oxygen during sleep, you are living in a fog.
Do whatever you have to do to fix it. Good luck!

------
L-four
Toxins. a poison of plant or animal origin, especially one produced by or
derived from microorganisms and acting as an antigen in the body.

If you've got toxins in the brain you've got bigger problems.

~~~
Udik
It's a lost battle. It annoys the hell out of me because we used to laugh at
the new age gurus that advised to "get rid of your toxins". Now this stupidity
is everywhere and if you point it out you even get downvoted. Even here, where
people are supposed to be rational and well informed.

