
Running an English speaking company in Europe - bjansn
http://micho.biz/post/66768255943/running-an-english-speaking-company
======
bowlofpetunias
This is pretty much standard for most tech startups in Amsterdam, and I
suspect several other European cities. The main reason isn't the ambition to
expand internationally, but staffing.

However, I've also encountered a lot of resistance, especially outside such
international cities. Some people fundamentally dislike the idea of having to
speak English if working for or partnering with a local company. It's also
heavily associated with pretentiousness.

~~~
namenotrequired
Yep, just yesterday I had an interview at an Amsterdam startup, everything in
Dutch. Right afterwards I was introduced to the team, and suddenly everything
was in English. I was a bit surprised and unprepared but I don't mind, some
other employees and interns are from other countries and I actually love
working in English (I do at my current, remote job too).

~~~
wouterinho
As a company you're constraining yourself so much by requiring Dutch if you
want to hire good people. I know many companies that still do so. Better for
the rest of us!

One thing I noticed: Dutch people can switch pretty well during "work"
discussions, but during lunch or social events, the switch is harder and you
have to remind people to speak English.

------
seivan
I wish more companies did this. Especially in Sweden, at least would lessen
the burden for my partner to get a job. Speaks Mandarin and English fluently.
Even jobs that could be done in English requires Swedish.

~~~
kfk
Unfortunately this is a problem in many EU countries. Most of the job
descriptions require perfect English + the local language (whatever that is).
In the worst case the local language is not mentioned, but then they fire your
CV too fast not to suspect language had something to do with it.

It's a real hassle, especially when you don't become "loyal" to any EU country
in particular, thus it makes no sense to learn its local language as there are
way too many languages around, me the last 4 years: I lived in Denmark
(Danish), Germany (German), now I live in Belgium (Dutch AND French).

The whole situation creates "sticky" jobs, where people end up stuck in 1
country, sometimes a very small country, and they can't really embrace the
full power of a unionized economic area. I mean, only for this US is so much
better than EU, 300ML people all speaking the same language...

~~~
Brakenshire
> The whole situation creates "sticky" jobs, where people end up stuck in 1
> country, sometimes a very small country, and they can't really embrace the
> full power of a unionized economic area.

I understand your frustration, but the purpose of the policy is precisely to
create 'sticky jobs', and this is really the only way things can work unless
countries like Denmark and the Netherlands wish over time to lose their
languages, and become more or less undifferentiated provinces of Europe.
Labour market mobility is important, but it is not the sine qua non of modern
Europe. Small countries accept immigration on the basis that the immigrants
will over time learn the language and adjust to the culture, it's impossible
for them to maintain the integrity of their state if a major percentage of the
population are transitory.

~~~
kfk
Please, if those countries really wanted to keep their identities, their
inhabitants wouldn't consume so much US music, movies, style and products
(iphones, anybody?).

People are already buying into the "just a province of Europe (I'd say, just a
province of US)" with their wallets. I don't see how forcing a local language
is helping in counteracting the "provincialization" trend.

Finally, in my ramblings around Europe, especially north and central Europe, I
noticed that people really love to keep a "fake" identity. They would wear
weird dresses (the Germans), eat weird stuff (the Danish), have a weird Santa
Claus (the Belgian, pardon, Flemish), just to think they are "different". They
are not different, most of the EU countries are very, very, similar to each
other. I really wish we realized that and stopped this craziness about "losing
our culture", we already lost our culture, because that was the good/optimal
thing to do, please let's get over it.

~~~
Brakenshire
You should try asking the people around you whether they wish to give up their
language and culture to become an undifferentiated province. Even in the
internationalized circles in which expats move you will find almost no-one
(who is not an expat) who agrees with the proposition. It may well be that
many people make many small decisions which tend towards that outcome, but
that is what democratic, civic decision making processes are for. You might as
well say that people vote with their wallets to build on the countryside.

And you only have to look at the way in which the political systems operate in
different European countries to see the massive cultural differences which
exist. How do you think the Danish would react to a politician like
Berlusconi?

~~~
kfk
Interesting discussion, a pity HN is not made for long conversations.

Political system are a complicated beast. We all watch the same movies, buy
the same stuff, but, somehow, vote in completely different ways. I think it's
because of how incentives are set in the respective countries. They are not
really culture, but just something that's there and it is very difficult to
remove.

For example, the Italian systems protects pharmacies (you can have only 1 each
xyz inhabitants). But the Danish system protects its economy taxing cars 180%.
The principle behind those 2 policies is the same (the State can and has to
affect the economy), yet the incentive this creates and the impacts on the
economy are very different.

~~~
Brakenshire
> Political system are a complicated beast. We all watch the same movies, buy
> the same stuff, but, somehow, vote in completely different ways. I think
> it's because of how incentives are set in the respective countries. They are
> not really culture, but just something that's there and it is very difficult
> to remove.

I take your point, although arguably institutional memory is an important part
of culture, especially given the cultural norms which build up intertwined
with those organizations.

Even beyond institutions, though, I'd say there are still very significant
differences. My understanding is that Berlusconi does well partly because
people admire his lad-ish lifestyle (fast cars, 18 year old supermodels, etc).
Whereas in many other countries his attitude, and level of consumption would
be considered vulgar. Berlusconi doesn't just get in because of the electoral
system, a lot of people in Italy must like him. And elsewhere in Europe he is
simply not liked.

Obviously, that's just one example. I don't mean to pick out Italy in
particular.

~~~
kfk
As I am Italian (who never voted Berlusconi), let me say that Berlusconi is
not about the ladies and the fast cars, but a lot about a weak, very weak,
alternative (a very shitty left wing). Italy is a conservative, right wing,
country and Berlusconi was the only leader in that area for 20 years. How this
happened and why will take too long to explain.

Yes, you have a point that Berlusconi is a sort of cultural difference. But to
be sure of that, we shall put Danes in Italy for 10 years and see what they
vote after that period. Yes, institutional memory is a cultural "feature", but
for me "culture" is more the day to day of people, what do they laugh at? What
are they aspirations? Dreams? What do they buy? Do they travel? Do they like
sunny beaches (ie: Chinese don't like sunny beaches, here you have a cultural
difference...)? Etc. In this, in EU we are very, very, similar.

------
msantos
I love this idea and I truly hope that more companies see that as a feasible
option. More so, because I've been contemplating the idea of leaving London
for Croatia for some time, but Croatian is an incredibly hard language to
learn.

On a second thought, it's also fair to say that the idea is all well and good,
but all you need is a disgruntled employee to ruin it to everybody else. But
then, I guess it's all up to what type of people you hire in the first place,
and how the company shows those new-hires what kind of culture is expected
from them.

There are few rulings in the UK, based on EU's laws, supporting employees
speaking they own language even when the nature of the business require them
to speak English. The most recent case I recall of, is that of a Polish
nurse/nanny/babysitter who would speak Polish to Polish-parents and Polish co-
workers. But her managers required there to stick to English at all times,
even when approached by Polish speaking parents and co-workers. She sued and
won.

~~~
mark_sz
Well, I don't think you've told entire story. She was speaking at her lunch
time in polish and her manager said that this is not allowed.

[http://witnesshr.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/polish-worker-
sacked...](http://witnesshr.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/polish-worker-sacked-for-
speaking-her.html)

(Btw, a lot of polish and spanish developers arrived to the UK in recent
months)

~~~
msantos
By no means it was my intention to make one side or the other look bad. I'm
sorry if it came across that way. I was just trying to make it short, since
that is a side story and therefore it's likely to be irrelevant to the OP.

But since you pointed out one of the many articles surrounding that particular
case, fyi that article is also incomplete. Google a bit and you'll find some
extractions of the court case. The speaking-during-break was the pinacle of
the story, which had started months before when her boss told her to speak
only English even when the clients (parents) started a conversation with her
in their shared/common language.

------
andrem
This is a similar route my company has taken. We are based in Madrid and are
just about to break out of Spain in terms of customer base.

We are more a traditional company competing in an existing industry hence
Silicon Valley is not a location we compete with in terms of culture or
product design.

What has been a big challenge for us after switching to English has really
been acquiring local talent that is already here or willing to move here, can
speak English well and also have great coding skills (in C# .Net if you want
to know)

We have been successful in recruiting people in rural Spain and across Europe
but it seems that all the English talent in MAdrid already is quite
comfortable in their jobs.

So in summary - I think if you are in non-english Europe and do the switch, be
prepared to diversify your operations and look at remote workers or branch
offices away from your HQ.

YMMV of course.

------
fcatalan
It might be a problem to keep your best developers working in Barcelona on
Spanish level salaries if they are good, young and fluent in English. It's not
just the absolute salary numbers: the relative purchasing power of even decent
Spanish salaries is pitiful. I only stay here because I'm not so young anymore
and have a family, but otherwise I would move somewhere that might be twice as
expensive but pay more like 3x.

~~~
radio4fan
On the other hand, Barcelona is a great place for young people to live.

I know plenty of people here in Barcelona who could earn much more in their
home countries, but choose to live in Barcelona for the better quality of
life.

A web developer would probably earn twice as much in London (where I'm from)
than here in Barcelona, but they would have to spend all the increase on rent
to rent a nice apartment. Forget buying in London on a junior- to mid-level
salary, but here you could buy a nice apartment in a nice part of the city.

Not to mention the weather, scenery, beach, cheaper restaurants and bars (with
better opening hours), lack of violence, and sheer excitement of being in a
foreign country.

------
nraynaud
I hate this configuration where development is in one place and suits in the
other, moreover when one is way more expensive than the other (often with the
suits in the more expensive). I leads to incredible culture divisions.

I'm still struggling for solutions, because having the sales next to the
customers HQ makes sense somehow.

~~~
bjansn
One of the points in the article is that having your team across timezones,
all speaking the same language makes it possible to collaborate when in
different locations. Why would it matter which employee is more expensive than
the other, in the end it's about the results. Running Marketing and Sales in
Barcelona might make it harder to find the clients they have today.

~~~
michokest
OP here. Ditto to that, we like our culture in Barcelona and didn't want to
replace it. We don't see it as a matter of cost, but a matter of possibility.

Since we didn't have a solid marketing or sales team, we decided to land it
where our main market is. It just made sense.

------
johngrefe
Starting an international SaaS company is a beast of an undertaking, kudos.

~~~
JanezStupar
What other options are there?

I am not being snarky. In my head any and all SaaS plays are inherently
international. Perhaps that's because I am Slovenian and any endeavour that is
not international by default is doomed from the get go.

I could not imagine a SaaS story that is viable in mid to long term without
inherent internationalization. Except perhaps US based companies, however
there WILL be trouble as soon as you try to enter European market if you
assume that US is the world.

~~~
michokest
Many friends of mine have local companies, targeting only the Spanish market.
It works well for them, but we have different goals. They want to be local
leaders (easier acquisition, lower marketing costs), we want to build a leader
in our category (higher investment in development and marketing)

~~~
JanezStupar
But this is the difference.

I would rather be a small fish in a big pond than a big fish in a small pond.

Especially if the first is many times bigger than the second one could ever
be.

