
Walking Through the Official Document on China' Social Credit System - paraditedc
https://paraditedc.com/2018/09/30/pdc-2-social-credit-system/
======
dlwdlw
Here’s a story of why China is a rather paradoxical state. It’s not pure
authoritarianism.

Many people who can’t return loans have their name and id number shown on
large digital billboards. The goal is to shame them into returning money.

Sounds dystopian right?

BUT the reason this is done is because these people can squat in their houses
(which may bot belong to them) and the police and law can’t do anything. The
social backlash of kicking someone out of their sole living space would be
huge.

Some lenders do things like send thugs to harrass them or get a court order to
freeze their bank accounts.

Yet the “core” of the issues is that “the law is the law” is NOT followed. It
has flexibility rooted in human understanding. Often lenders have to meet
halfway per a judge’s order b/c otherwise the lendee wouldn’t be able to make
a living.

~~~
Mizza
I've spent a little bit of time and there and found that this is extremely
true, but also equally true of America as well.

For instance, although China is absolutely totalitarian when it comes to
political freedom, freedom of speech, and even freedom of thought (in fact,
far more authoritarian than neoliberals will ever admit), you do feel a lot
more "free" at the _street level_. There are basically no traffic laws, you
can drink and smoke wherever you want, you can set up a shop on the side of a
sidewalk, you can make and sell bootlegs of anything you want - you can even
piss and shit in the middle of the street without so much as a second thought
about it (this is disgustingly common there.)

On the flip side, in America I can (ostensibly) say whatever you want
politically, but I can't legally drink a beer on the sidewalk. I can't open a
certain type of shop in a certain area. I can't sell products which use such-
and-such technology. I can't even cross the street at certain times and
places. Land of the free!

~~~
erikpukinskis
Interestingly you can set up a microcosm of (many of) the Chinese freedoms you
describe in the U.S., but not vice versa.

I can buy some unincorporated land, build a street, and let people piss and
shit and sell food and knockoff purses.

However I can’t buy land in China and set up an area with a free newspaper.

This is because the U.S. prohibitions you cite are _de facto_ prohibitions
while the Chinese ones are actually human rights not granted by the state.

It’s a somewhat academic distinction in terms of our day to day lives, but
it’s meaningful when talking about what social movement tactics are available
to us.

------
kstenerud
This article smells. Like a bad code smell.

Especially since we have the Chinese government freely admitting [1] that they
will restrict travel to regular citizens for "spreading false information
about terrorism, causing problems on flights, using expired tickets, smoking
on trains, failing to pay social insurance or failing to pay fines", according
to the National Development and Reform Commission’s website.

[1] [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-credit/china-to-
bar...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-credit/china-to-bar-people-
with-bad-social-credit-from-planes-trains-idUSKCN1GS10S)

~~~
paraditedc
Hey, thanks for pointing this out. I have updated it at the bottom of the
article.

To clarify, I intended to write about this in this post initially, but somehow
got carried away by the original document, so it ended up being just a walk
through of the original document without the new additions and measures.

I think it does make sense to add additional information like this to the post
to make it more complete and up-to-date.

Update:

found the original source (in Chinese) in case anyone is interested:
[http://www.chinatax.gov.cn/n810341/n810755/c3359637/content....](http://www.chinatax.gov.cn/n810341/n810755/c3359637/content.html)

2nd Update:

It appears that Reuters made a mistake in their reporting, the ban is only for
planes, not trains, according to the official document I linked above.

If anyone knows to get Reuters to correct its article, please let me know!

~~~
rahimnathwani
The Reuters journalist said:

\- there are multiple documents about the social credit system, not just from
the tax bureau

\- people have definitely been banned from high speed rail

\- two official docs from NDRC confirm this

(I haven't received links to the docs yet, but will reply to this comment when
I do)

~~~
paraditedc
Yes, you are right. There are 2 sources from NDRC on this. So Reuters is
correct in their reporting. I've found the them on NDRC website:

[http://www.ndrc.gov.cn/zcfb/zcfbtz/201803/t20180316_879618.h...](http://www.ndrc.gov.cn/zcfb/zcfbtz/201803/t20180316_879618.html)

[http://www.ndrc.gov.cn/gzdt/201803/t20180316_879653.html](http://www.ndrc.gov.cn/gzdt/201803/t20180316_879653.html)

I've updated the links in my post as well.

It would have saved me and them the trouble if Reuters actually provided the
sources.

~~~
rahimnathwani
"It would have saved me and them the trouble if Reuters actually provided the
sources."

If we want them to do this, we need to start telling them. To anyone
interested in seeing Reuters start including links to sources, a good first
step is to email:

brian.moss@thomsonreuters.com

He handles enquiries about reporting standards.

EDIT: removed first paragraph, which I pasted in error from a chat message.

~~~
paraditedc
Hi, I read your first paragraph a few times and I am not still not sure what
you mean. Can you explain a bit?

~~~
rahimnathwani
Sorry, I pasted the info from a chat message and, after adding some text,
didn't fully remove the rest of the context.

I've edited my comment and removed that part.

------
c789a123
A government has no credit itself build up a credit system for its subjects.
Before CCP grabs power in 1949, they promised a western democracy system. 30
years ago until 1 or two years ago they push for a one child policy and
promised that the government will take care of old people. Both promises and
many others not listed here they now just pretend never happens. This whole
social credit system shit is just try to have a more strong control to the
slaves who can not vote and take their organs etc easily when necessary.

------
burlesona
This is interesting, but kind of odd that the mandarin quotes weren't
translated in an otherwise English article.

~~~
paraditedc
Ah, I see. I overlooked the fact that it would be odd for people who can't
read them.

Anyway, the reason I didn't translate them is partly because there's a lot of
nuances in the language and any attempt to translate them would inherently
require some level of interpretation and potentially cause misunderstanding.
Also at the time, I was too tired from reading and summarizing the document
already.

~~~
adamnemecek
> Anyway, the reason I didn't translate them is partly because there's a lot
> of nuances in the language and any attempt to translate them would
> inherently require some level of interpretation and potentially cause
> misunderstanding.

Welcome to translation?

~~~
dang
Would you please stop being a jerk on HN? We've had to ask you way too many
times.

I've held off banning you because you've posted good stories, but at some
point it's not going to be worth it.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

------
Paperweight
In the west, the classic fictional story of dystopia seems to be the complete
subjugation of the individual to the collective.

E.g. you become a cell enslaved to a body of "society" \- a sort of emergent
A.I. that's not necessarily under anyone's control.

------
mediocrejoker
It would be great if somebody could translate this article, since the
commentary doesn’t make a lot of sense if you can’t read the source material.

------
kodablah
> For rewards, it mentions giving awards and publicity to model individuals
> and companies. Various sectors will have “green lanes” given to “those with
> integrity and credibility”, for priority and simplified processes. Note that
> this section does not mention scores, it merely says “诚实守信者”, meaning people
> with integrity and credibility.

Scary. I will say with all of the "vague context", "it appears", "I don't
know", etc that this post is as speculative as the Western ones. I appreciate
the impartial tone of the article. To the author, would you care to share your
opinions on the system personally, i.e. whether it's a good thing? Also, do
you have any anecdotal insight on how common citizens view it behind closed
doors?

~~~
paraditedc
Hey. Sorry for the late reply. I'd be sure post new articles on this as
follow-up once I have my personal experience with the system with my next trip
to China.

~~~
kodablah
Thanks. I was hoping for your opinions on the ideas rather than the
implementation. Judgement based on experience/anecdote has less value due to
the sheer size of the implementation.

~~~
paraditedc
Honestly speaking, I practice a lot of doubethink. So my opinions are quite
worthless, and I'd rather just talk about facts and stats.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublethink](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublethink)

------
zwaps
How much social credit do i lose by visiting a mosque or church?

------
jbottoms
What is the meaning of "circulation" in the section Business Credibility?

~~~
paraditedc
Hey, the exact translation for the word does seem a bit odd, but I searched
online and there doesn't seem to be good equivalent term in English, the
translations are generally either circulation, market or currency.

So I will translate the explanation I got from the Chinese wiki[1]:

 _The field where the medium of exchange of goods is currency_

[1] [https://baike.baidu.com/item/流通领域](https://baike.baidu.com/item/流通领域)

~~~
jbottoms
Then the English would be "currency exchange".

~~~
paraditedc
According to my experience with the phrase "currency exchange", it means
exchanging currencies, not exchanging goods using one particular currency as
the medium of exchange. So it would be a wrong translation.

------
kiliantics
Here's a good thread I read recently dispelling a lot if the myths about the
system:

[https://www.twitter.com/isgoodrum/status/1043643948185468928](https://www.twitter.com/isgoodrum/status/1043643948185468928)

It seems a lot of the news is driven by a strong anti-China, even McCarthyist
bias.

------
DyslexicAtheist
most posts on the site aim to "debunk" the myth of Chinese products being a
security risk and that Westerners just overreacting

~~~
paraditedc
Hey, I wrote all 5 articles and I think only the 5th one on Huawei fits your
description?

Appreciate if you can provide some feedback on how to be less biased, if
that's what you mean.

~~~
yorwba
If you write about topics the mainstream media have reported on, it's easy to
end up looking like an apologist. The media tend to focus on negative stories
because negativity drives attention. Unless you deliberately put your stories
through a similar filter (why I'm not suggesting you should do), they'll be
more positive than the audience has come to expect.

You could somewhat avoid that by writing about lesser-known topics. Some
suggestions: image-retouching apps like B612/Faceu (although I recall some
outrage about their skin-whitening effect making it to Twitter) and Chinese-
only games (I know there are some big ones, but I haven't even been interested
enough so far to find out whether "吃鸡" means to lose or to win).

