

Why did Microsoft make Windows 8 hard to Power Off? - 1234
http://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/25687/why-did-microsoft-make-windows-8-hard-to-power-off
http://ux.stackexchange.com/q/25687/4679
======
lucb1e
A slightly extended version of my comment on the accepted answer:

I disagree on almost everything. On mobile phones you don't have a >17" screen
to place a power button in an often-used menu somewhere, and the power button
is like 5cm away. On a desktop this is usually not the case. As you said, you
need to power a device on in a physical way because software is not running,
but when powering off you can use either software or hardware buttons. You've
been using that mouse and keyboard the whole time that you were working with
it, why turn back to other hardware to turn it off?

For tablets, and even laptops to an extent, Windows 8 makes a lot of sense.
The power button is close, or you can close the lid. For desktop PCs, not so
much.

Lastly, I think of my phone or mobile device as always-on because _it needs to
be always on_. I don't turn my ears off when I'm not using them either. My 500
Watt pc does not always need to be on or sleeping (hibernate at most). Nor
does my family's tablet; we always power it off entirely. Conserves a lot of
battery power and lifespan.

~~~
Dylan16807
>My 500 Watt pc does not always need to be on or sleeping (hibernate at most).

I question how much that will actually save you. A turned-off PC drains
somewhere under a watt, and a PC in sleep mode also drains... somewhere under
a watt. Sure, you might not want to spend the 20-50 watts it takes to keep a
PC fully powered and idling, but sleep mode is very efficient.

For a tablet it makes sense, since those tend to use a 'sleep' mode that's
more of a deep idle, where wifi and background processes are still powered.

~~~
acqq
You're wrong when you say "a PC in sleep mode also drains somewhere under a
watt." Unless you consider as the only "desktop" to be Mac mini, you've never
tried to measure the power consumption of the desktop yourself. Otherwise,
you'd know that a lot of desktops take _a lot_ of power when sleeping, on
average 20 Watts, but even up to 80:

<http://standby.lbl.gov/summary-table.html>

The above table used 52 computers to make the statistics: the average was 21
Watts.

Do you have a desktop? Plug it in a power meter, you'd be surprised. My
desktop draws more than 10 Watts _when powered off._ That's why I use the hard
power switch on the back and prefer a notebook.

When we're there, look at the "off power" of the set-top boxes. Horrible.

~~~
Dylan16807
I dunno, I used this source
[http://www.upenn.edu/computing/provider/docs/hardware/poweru...](http://www.upenn.edu/computing/provider/docs/hardware/powerusage.html)

Something is wrong with a computer using 20 watts in sleep mode. Is there a
list of the actual models there? I would want to see how old they are.

~~~
acqq
You are quoting the extreme, a table with iMacs and the new very low power
Dells. Measure yourself something that's not a Mac or a latest low power
desktop. And make sure you're really measuring the sleep mode, not the
hibernation.

I also once believed what you believe, but then I took the meter and measured
the devices around me. It fits the table I quote -- my set-top box also draws
30 Watts when "off."

~~~
Dylan16807
I'm looking for data that actually names models. I found some for bog-standard
pentium 4 dells, and they use 3 watts.

Honestly it probably comes down to having a not-terrible power supply.

Edit: how about a random HP, 1.65 watts [http://reviews.cnet.com/desktops/hp-
pavilion-p7-1070t/4505-3...](http://reviews.cnet.com/desktops/hp-
pavilion-p7-1070t/4505-3118_7-34852840-2.html)

------
dangrossman
I have two machines running Windows 8: a 2-year-old laptop, and a Surface Pro
tablet. I've never shut down either of them.

The laptop just gets closed when I'm not using it -- so it goes to sleep. If I
leave it like that long enough it'll hibernate itself when the battery gets
low.

The tablet I either press the power button on, or if I have the keyboard cover
attached, just flip the cover shut which has the same effect. It goes to sleep
and shuts itself down after 15?30? minutes of inactivity. Win8 on an SSD cold
boots to a working desktop with network connection in 7 seconds flat.

Explicitly navigating to a software shutdown button just isn't part of a
normal workflow on modern devices. The only time I think I'd use it would be
to fix some kind of bug like a wonky driver. Desktops are going the way of the
dodo -- my dinky little tablet can now drive a 2560x1440 monitor and run
modern games. Adding one extra click to reach the old software shutdown button
to keep the UX simple for what most people will be doing makes sense.

Heck, if you have a keyboard with the new Win8 shortcuts, it's the same amount
of clicks as it was in WinVista and Win7. Charm button -> Power button -> Shut
Down, versus Start Button -> Arrow next to the power icon -> Shut down.

~~~
nwh
> Win8 on an SSD cold boots to a working desktop with network connection in 7
> seconds flat.

Oddly enough, it's not booting. Clicking "Shut down" is hibernation in Windows
8.

~~~
ygra
It hibernates session 0 and the kernel, indeed. But that's a nitpicker's
distinction. To the end user the result is the same, it just boots faster.

~~~
Dylan16807
It's not a nitpick when you're trying to use the high-success-rate "turn it
off and on again" method of fixing problems.

~~~
raverbashing
That died around Windows 2000. Really

Restarting a software is one thing. Windows?

(Well, sometimes it locks up or reboots by itself, usually because of a bad
driver or bad hardware)

~~~
Dylan16807
I'm worried about flaky drivers, really. Drivers lead to most of my reboots.
If it only purges the user state then it's not resetting what I need.

~~~
raverbashing
Yes. I'm skeptical with this "saves the state of drives" because that's not
100% possible, there's always some reinitializing that should take place

So I'm assuming it redoes some things and doesn't just uses everything, so
it's something like a partial reinitialization

But maybe MS thought of that and you have an option to start/stop drivers
(actually you can do that on any modern windows)

------
ladzoppelin
I find it really easy to power off once you know where to look. I think they
moved it so people without a mouse/keyboard could still turn off Windows
easily. Call me crazy but I find Windows 8 to be really solid even on older
equipment.

~~~
batiudrami
I don't mind it, but I also find that (other than task manager), I barely
interact with the new features. I turn it on, put my password in, click
'Desktop' and launch my apps.

The extra half second of hovering to bring up the charms menu to shut down
does annoy me disproportionately more than it really should.

~~~
ygra
You don't need to hover in the corner, you can just throw your mouse in the
corner and then move it down.

But agreed on not using the new features. I think the only Metro app I use
regularly is checking the weather from the Start screen. Otherwise I spend
almost all time on the Desktop and there it works just like a slimmer and
faster Windows 7.

~~~
UnoriginalGuy
Many metro apps are fairly broken anyway.

I've been trying to use the "mail" app with Outlook.com e-mail (Hotmail's
replacement) and it refuses to show me notifications for 90% of my e-mail
because it arrives in a sub-folder rather than "inbox."

The "Calendar" app is also spamming me with notifications about people's
birthdays, even after I acknowledge the notification it appears again hours
later. Plus it appears in front of full screen video and just stays there even
when ignored... Great design there.

------
pgsandstrom
Maybe they, in contrast to their own FAQ, actually don't want users to turn
their computers off. My parents always power off their laptop completely,
because it feels natural to them to power off an electrical device when not
using it. Then they complain about the long boot time.

This might not be the best solution since it causes confusion. But since so
much is changing anyway, they might take the opportunity to change everything
they don't like about how users interact with Windows.

~~~
lucb1e
> _[They] actually don't want users to turn their computers off. My parents
> always power off their laptop completely, because it feels natural to them
> to power off an electrical device when not using it. Then they complain
> about the long boot time._

That made the most sense of the entire thread. Much more than the SE answer
also.

------
yareally
Even in Windows 7 it's kind of a pain if one is using shortcut keys.

shutdown – press the win key, then press the → key once and finally enter. (on
xp it was win key + U twice)

restart – press the win key, then press the → key 2 times and finally R. (on
xp it was win key + U then R)

However, at least locking is easy (hold win key and press L).

If one is not locking out, easier to just go to the start menu to shut down.

edit: mixed up locking and logout shortcuts. Also press → twice and not 3
times for restart, mea culpa.

reference link: [http://productivity.ben61a.com/windows/windows-7-shortcut-
ke...](http://productivity.ben61a.com/windows/windows-7-shortcut-keys.php)

~~~
smnrchrds
> restart – press the win key, then press the → key three times and finally R

You need to press → key twice. (I just accidentally restarted my computer
trying this :-))

> However, at least logout is easy (hold win key and press L).

win+L locks the computer. To log off, you need to press the win key, then
press the → key twice and finally L.

~~~
yareally
Thanks, I should have known log out versus lock. 4am here and not sure why am
I still up.

Hopefully you didn't have anything important open that was not saved,

------
will_brown
Windows 8 did to the start button what England did to William Wallace,
quartered it and buried the parts in the 4 corners of the territory.

My solution add the following to the task bar and metro screen: 2 start orbs
(blue orb = metro screen; green orb = Windows start screen), Restart and
Shutdown

Screen shot of my Window 8 task bar:
[https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6jnvIhOPJO7Y0NWQm56THVrbDA/...](https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6jnvIhOPJO7Y0NWQm56THVrbDA/edit?usp=sharing)

Screen shot of my Metro screen:
[https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6jnvIhOPJO7WVF1ZjBVOFc3MFU/...](https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6jnvIhOPJO7WVF1ZjBVOFc3MFU/edit?usp=sharing)

Update: Even though I described the end of the start button so violently and
added 2 start orbs to my own taskbar, I am not knocking MS choice to do away
with the button.

~~~
1234
That's nice! I use the same thing which i accidentaly push :( But since I got
SSD-disks, we're up fast again! :)

------
ne0phyte
Click on the desktop, press Alt+F4. That's what I've been doing since Windows
XP.

------
Bughunter101
As the comments say: "What I find most interesting here...is no one thinks to
hit the Power button to turn their PC off. You do the same with your TV, your
phone, your blender, why is your PC the only one you turn on and off using two
different ways!"

~~~
ne0phyte
My PC is under my table whereas my mouse and keyboard are at my fingertips.

------
darklajid
1) Win + I

2) Click on shutdown button.

Alternative: Press power button on device.

I don't like the UI formerly known as Metro, but Windows 8 isn't thaaat bad
and this bashing quickly got old.

~~~
laumars
> I don't like the UI formerly known as Metro, but Windows 8 isn't thaaat bad
> and this bashing quickly got old.

It's easily the worst GUI shell on any popular OS. It's counter intuitive
(very little of the OS is guessable), jarring between Metro and the classic
desktop, and so poorly thought out that even IT professionals struggle to use
it.

Given the excellent research facilities Microsoft have, their near-bottomless
money pit and their massive market share for desktop / laptop installs,
releasing such a substandard product is completely inexcusable.

So honestly, the apologists trying to forgive Microsoft quickly gets old.

~~~
darklajid
"Inexcusable"? "Apologists"? "Forgive"? Did you pick those words with
consideration?

Obviously you seem to target me (as part of a group you don't agree with)
here. Those words make no sense in this context?

I'm a Linux guy at home/at night, but work as a C# developer in a "We love
Microsoft" (tm) company where everything MS is hyped. I'm not part of that
though..

Windows 8 (or 2012) works for me _exactly_ as Windows 7 did (Windows 7
workflow for launching stuff? Hit 'Windows' key, start typing. Windows 8
workflow for launching stuff? Hit 'Windows' key (or Win+W or Win+F), start
typing.

I certainly hate some of the design decisions, all of them related to Metro-
only applications. Typing 'optional' (leading to 'Install optional updates',
the ~sane~ version of Windows Update) annoys me. There are quite some cases
like that, but really: That's minor.

The start menu was useless on every machine I've ever seen. It got cluttered
quickly with a mixture of documents, programs, shortcuts to websites or crazy
'uninstall' tools, became a messy hierarchy after 15min of using a machine and
don't get me started on the sorting or auto-hiding features previous versions
of Windows 'improved' the situation with.

Worse, the _very specific_ complaint about ways to shut down the machine makes
no sense at all (see my previous post. The change is that you have to add a
'i' key to the first press of the Windows button - yeah and the button to
power down the machine is now on the right side of the screen).

I don't claim that Windows 8 is perfect or anything close to that, but it is
not that bad. People just like to complain. A lot. KDE 4 is crap. Gnome 3 is
crap. Unity is stupidity cast into UX. Ah - and OS X removes really, really
vital things on every release, it seems. Right..

What I'm asking for is some perspective and some nuanced criticism. That isn't
happening so far and your 'easily the worst GUI shell' is exactly that broad
stroke that I consider flat out wrong. We can argue about details, specific
issues, but the way you state it you're just appearing as angry and ranting.
Using superlatives and general criticism serves no point.

On a slightly related side note: I have the feeling that IT professionals are
the worst crowd to handle changes, actually. Where a user might accept a
change and honestly give it a try, a more experienced so-called power-user
might feel offended much more easily in my opinion.

------
ComputerGuru
I couldn't find the menu to power off Windows. So I use my trusty old shortcut
that has served me for decades:

winkey+r -> shutdown -s -t 0

(or shutdown -r -t 0 to reboot)

------
Shorel
If you dual boot with Linux, the Windows partition will not be writable when
it's in hibernated state.

------
dromidas
How has nobody said "CTRL ALT DELETE" then "CLICK POWER BUTTON IN CORNER" yet?
It's stupidly easy.

------
mparlane
Press the power button on your machine. The same one you used to turn it on.

~~~
Dylan16807
Okay, take a second to explain this to me. What exactly happens when I press
the power button? On almost every laptop I have used the power button puts it
to sleep. Are you saying this has changed in windows 8, and it will shut off
instead?

~~~
Already__Taken
You know you get set what the power button does in power options right?

I change all mine to hibernate and closing the screen to do nothing.

~~~
Dylan16807
Sure you _can_ change anything, but the original question was about windows 8
as it ships.

So what does the button do?

------
dschiptsov
Because it boots in 5 minutes.))

~~~
1234
Hehe - that might be it! :-)

