
For Fathers of Daughters - rmason
https://jules.thegrommet.com/2018/10/10/for-fathers-of-daughters/
======
KaiserPro
This is something that I've struggled with for my daughter.

I want her to walk into my job and feel like she belongs.

However, given the current state of dickheads in IT, that's going to be a tall
ask. Her mother is a doctor, so its not like she doesn't have role models.

We made a conscious effort not to make her "lady like", that is, like a boy we
encourage her to be arrogant (self belief), not to take any crap (fight if she
has to), make jokes, and to stand up for her opinion.

The problem, is that she's not with us at school (otherwise that would be
weird) So we are at the mercy of those people's opinion of what a woman/man
should be.

Her first nursery was very good, run by exceptionally tough londoners. (I
don't care if he's a boy, he's going to have to learn how to hold a baby, best
start now & Of course she's playing with the drill, she can't wait for some
bloke to put up a shelf now can she?)

The second nursery was less useful:

Staff: "Your daughter acted up today, it was very unusual"

Me: "oh? what did she do?"

Staff: "well she got into an argument with another child, You daughter said
that her dad did her lovely plaits this morning. The other child said dads
don't do hair. We saw that something was going on, and once they told us, we
said [daughter's name] you know your dad didn't do your hair(looks at me with
a "oh kids" face). She got very angry after that, we're not sure why"

Me: "I did do her hair."

Staff: "oh"

There was another time when a kid said that girls can't be doctors. This sort
of shit is easy to pick up, and it becomes ingrained.

~~~
im3w1l
> the current state of dickheads in IT,

This is needless and hurtful

~~~
happytoexplain
I'm in IT, and don't feel hurt by it. I have a hard time imagining who would
feel hurt by a throwaway line that's so very non-specific, especially when
it's referring to a phenomenon that's so real and important. I have an easy
time imagining who would feel _angered_ by this line, however.

~~~
im3w1l
Oh so now we are playing the insinuation game? Classy

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mmsimanga
> We no longer sell it (the author’s decision to just use Amazon, a male-led
> business, alas.)

This is where I stopped reading. Pity author has to include such divisive
comments. Given this is addressed to fathers of daughters of which I am one I
don't see why it was necessary to include such remarks.

~~~
robbrown451
Why is that divisive?

All she's saying is that she recommends trying to do business with and
otherwise promote powerful women, if you can. It's not always possible. But
being aware of it is a positive.

I have a hard time seeing how you can get so offended by such things. (I am a
single dad of a daughter, so I start thinking that way myself)

~~~
mmsimanga
Nothing wrong with promoting women owned businesses. I really do not see the
need for that line given the title of the post. A post directed at men. Its a
slippery slope, should I also tell my daughter not to drive cars made by
companies owned by men, not fly in planes made by men. Definitely not the
advice I will be giving my daughter. I will tell her she can be whatever she
wants to be as long as she works hard at it.

~~~
robbrown451
She didn't say that. She said that she recommends that _parents_ of daughters
do their best to promote businesses run by women, so that their daughters are
more likely to be exposed to women as role models.

Not sure where you are getting that she was suggesting telling the daughters
themselves do that. Her approach is to point a daughter into growing into a
powerful woman herself.

Very different thing.

------
mikece
While certainly flattering to tell someone you want your daughter to be just
like them, it’s probably better to train your daughter to be able to be like
someone you admire — if that’s what she chooses — than to definitely steer a
kid for a particular destination. For my daughters (and so sons) this starts
with a solid, classical education featuring the trivium and quadrivium. This
trains the mind to memorize and process: to collect data and convert it to
knowledge. Beyond that: intangibles like a strong work ethic, empathy,
compassion, and kindness to others rounds out the essential basis for _any_
profession.

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ydnaclementine
> Get female doctors and dentists for your daughter.

This one is the most insightful for me that I never thought about. It's
similar to the easy mode advice of reading books with female leads, which is
just have the daughter around other women doing things in male dominant areas.

It'll be interesting to see what the effect of a women US president will have.
But I think the changes will be slow, only really taking effect once the kids
who 'had a female president' in their history books grow up.

~~~
shantly
Easy for pediatricians, too, since like 60% of them are women.

~~~
krzyk
From my experience in my city it is more like 90% women.

------
lordnacho
I'm a bit in two minds about this one.

Let's generalize it a bit. Say your kid is a member of some demographic, and
very few in that demographic have done some thing that your kid is interested
in. What are you gonna do? IMO it's better to just find a positive role model
and make sure the kid understands they are a role model because of qualities
pertinent to the role.

Another thing is that those positive qualities tend to have nothing to do with
any demographic. They tend to be such well known qualities that it's a bit
cliché: hard work, perseverance, humility, team player, positive attitude, and
so forth. There's not really any of those that women would not have as a
result of being female.

I'm not sure going out of your way to find female service providers is useful.
Your kids are going to be smart. If they see daddy is trying to rig the
outcome of a hiring process, they are going to wonder why women need that help
in the first place.

What you can do is be realistic about how things actually are in the world:

\- It's true that women still do most of the child related stuff, and your
daughter is going to have to think about how that affects her choices.

\- It's true that people will have prejudices about who can and can't do a
given thing. Some of those things will be true, and some will be false. It's
in everyone's interest to acknowledge the things that are backed by evidence,
and to inform everyone about the things that aren't.

\- Some sneaky people know how the prejudices are set up, and they capitalise
on it. "She isn't tough enough" and that kind of BS that's often part of
corporate politics. For those kinds of things I'll tell my kid how the game
works and she can decide how to play it. But it's a feature (or a bug!) of how
the world works, and it doesn't help to deny it.

He's absolutely right about talking about it to boys and men. Somehow it
happens at my other kid's all-boys school they get ideas about what girls can
and can't do, and it's not right for them to be perpetuating myths that damage
the chances for everyone to make the most of their lives.

------
RcouF1uZ4gsC
> Basically, I believe the aphorism: you can’t be it if you can’t see it.

That sentiment is so limiting. I teach my daughters that the whole human
experience is theirs to draw heroes and role models and inspiration from.

Any human, no matter sex or gender or race or ethnicity can serve as
inspiration to them.

It’s time to end the artificial divisions. We are humans and we can all
inspire each other.

I want my daughters to think they can be Bill Gates or Louis Pasteur or Marie
Curie or Albert Einstein or anybody else without any artificial limitations.

------
saneshark
I really enjoyed reading this article as a way of reevaluating my approach to
gender inequality, but I have a problem with the title and main premise.

Why do you need to have a daughter to support gender equality? Aren't these
values equally as important to instill in your sons? Aren't they values we
should embrace regardless of whether or not we have children?

------
werber
For parents of children seems more fitting

~~~
robbrown451
That is missing the point. Boys have a lot more role models that they can see
themselves emulating, for instance Jeff Bezos, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Larry
Page, Sergey Brin, Mark Zuckerburg and so many others. Even more so if you
look back in history (Einstein, Newton, Edison, etc)

It takes a concentrated effort to expose little girls to role models that are
the same gender as them. For whatever reason, girls like to emulate other
females, and unfortunately there are a lot more Kim Kardashians and Ariana
Grandes and Taylor Swifts than there are famous women software developers,
scientists, tech entrepreneurs, and so on.

(nothing against Taylor Swift. but aiming for a career in entertainment is a
lot higher risk than studying technical pursuits as the male examples above
did)

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ahbyb
Political propaganda on the front page. Oof.

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otabdeveloper2
Oh yes, I'm sure your daughter needs a double dose of feminism, because
feminism, is, like, something that our current society totally lacks.

Because if some cure isn't working (or even having the opposite effect) of
course the problem is that you're not applying it enough, you need to double
or triple the dose!

(Sarcasm, if you're the kind of person who needs the hint.)

------
Damorian
Tl;dr be a stereotypical feminist. I expect higher quality content on HN.

~~~
staktrace
Maybe you should try submitting some content then, instead of just shooting
down others.

