
Some people swear by Alcoholics Anonymous and others despise it - curtis
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/1/2/16181734/12-steps-aa-na-studies
======
ilovetux
My name is Cliff and I'm an addict.

I see a lot of misunderstanding in the article and in the comments here that I
would like to address. I am very familiar with NA, AA's narcotics-focused
sibling, having found sobriety for 15 years now. I will be saying NA, but
please understand that what I say also applies to AA.

I never really understood why the twelve steps work, until I did. This is a
long and rambling explanation of what I have learned.

If an actual cure for addiction was found, almost everyone in recovery would
jump at the chance. The view in NA is that addiction is a disease and that
there is no cure the best we can hope for is being "in recovery" as opposed to
being "in active addiction".

There are three main phases to a success story in NA: the newcomer, the
sponsor and the relapse. All three are necessary for long-term treatment of
addiction.

The newcomer is a very emotional person often burying their emotions at the
expense of those around them. Imagine the cognitive dissonance of one who
loves their family members, but steals from them all-the-same. There is nobody
with whom to discuss these feelings outside of NA, nobody who will understand.
This leads to coping strategies which are unique but ultimately ineffectual.

Addicts typically exhibit above-average intelligence. It is very difficult to
maintain a $200 per day addiction while your social skills, dependability and
general appearance are quickly declining. This intelligence allows an addict
to continue in life by "working around" the issues they encounter until that
becomes impossible, this is what is referred to as "rock-bottom". At rock
bottom the only choices are jails, institutions, death or recovery. For those
lucky enough to seek recovery, NA provides a vocabulary and tool-set for
correcting those the issues which have been piling up in the addicts life.

The twelve steps start off with three steps which are impossible to achieve
without hitting rock-bottom. Admitting powerlessness over addiction, believing
that there is a power greater than oneself which could restore sanity and
making a decision to turn one's will and life over to that higher power. Once
an addict is ready, these steps take very little time to complete.

The remainder of the steps walk one through the process of coming to terms
with their lies, justifications, crimes and other misdeeds. Often the last 9
steps are just repeating your inner-dialog of the past few years out loud with
another person, because it is hard to hide the faulty logic when there is
someone actively listening.

Once an addict is able to face reality, it is important to engage the
community and to start collecting responsibilities such as making the coffee
before the meeting or setting up the chairs. These small responsibilities
provide a way to prove oneself to the group as well as to oneself. The
responsibilities allow an addict to begin rebuilding a life where they are
used to being relied upon.

Once someone is able to feel good about where they are in life, it is time to
move onto the next phase, sponsorship. It is easy to justify relapse once you
are in a good place, after you managed to crawl out from rock-bottom. That is
why sponsorship is so vital.

It is said in "the rooms" that "we keep what we have only by giving it away".
To avoid relapse, we need to be aware of what is called "euphoric recall"
where you only remember the good and forget the bad. To keep the memories
accurate, we need to constantly talk about the problems caused by addiction
and to keep from having the same conversations over and over again, newcomers
are essential. sponsorship is a two-way street with the newcomer gaining an
understanding support group and the sponsor being reminded of the malfeasance
of addiction.

Sponsorship is also the next step in collecting responsibilities. It moves the
responsibility from the group to another individual who relies on you in a
life-or-death sort of way. The stakes are much higher and one is hopefully
less likely to lapse on them.

The third and final stage is relapse. Relapse is a part of recovery and if we
fail to recognize this, it is only that much more difficult to revisit the
idea of recovery. Relapse can happen at any time and with or without reason.

In the end, the twelve steps are one way to treat addiction and it works for a
lot of people. I believe that it is better if we try something which is
sensible and has been shown to work. That being said the twelve steps do not
claim to be a cure, but rather a rocky and dangerous road which leads back to
sanity.

"Keep coming back, it works if you work it, so work it because you're worth
it."

PS. The higher power I chose was NA itself, this allowed me to avoid the
religious aspects while putting my faith in something more than a door-knob.

~~~
reactor4
Hi, my name is reactor and I'm an addict.

I can concur, I'm going on two months of sobriety from alcohol and stimulants
tomorrow morning, only on using the 1st three steps and my employer's EAP. For
now, the 1st three steps are enough to get me going plus an intense fear of
where I was headed for (jails or institutions or death). I know I will have to
ask for help to complete the 4th step but I still don't talk a lot at the
meetings beside presenting myself when I'm asked so this will come when I'm
ready or meet a suitable sponsor I guess. Maybe I will ask publicly if someone
is looking for a "protégé" \- is that the right word? - and would be
interested to help me when I go get my 2 months' key ring on Saturday evening.
I think it would avoid the awkwardness of asking to many people. Anyway, what
Cliff is saying is exactly right as far as I can tell so far..

* I'm also reading Russell Brand's book on the 12 steps, it's called "Freedom from Our Addictions". It's a very good "update" for newer generations about what the 12 steps are and why you should follow them if you need to.

~~~
ilovetux
Thanks for sharing, I would advise you to hang around after the meetings and
just get to know people after that you should ask if any commitments are
available and take any that pop up. Finding a sponsor is a personal journey,
and you should concentrate on finding someone who you can relate to and who
you can look up to; remember it's a two-way street.

Do not rush into anything, this is a journey and the first steps are enough
until they're not and when that happens you will know it and hopefully you
will have become familiar enough with the regulars that the choice of sponsor
will become obvious.

------
Quequau
I suppose I'm in the "despise AA" camp. After decades of alcohol abuse, I quit
drinking using Naltrexone following the "Sinclair Method". In my opinion it's
a far more rational and reasonable treatment program as compared to AA's 12
step.

I would encourage anyone who wants to stop drinking and doesn't feel well
served by AA to try to find a doc willing to prescribe Naltrexone and give it
a try.

~~~
joelb2014
Did you pair with CBT or something else or just the Naltrexone?

~~~
martinald
In the UK Nalmefene is approved for this kind of alcohol treatment also. It's
less toxic to the liver than naltrexone so GPs can prescribe it (without
specialist intervention and liver checks).

Disclaimer: am shareholder in manufacturer. Feel there is a massive lack of
emphasis on novel pharmaceutical interventions in drug and alcohol
rehabilitation.

~~~
tcj_phx
> In the UK Nalmefene is approved for this kind of alcohol treatment also.
> It's less toxic to the liver than naltrexone so GPs can prescribe it
> (without specialist intervention and liver checks).

Hadn't heard of nalmefene, thanks for the reference. Naltrexone is also useful
in much lower doses than the standard 50mg tablets, as "low-dose naltrexone"
(1-5mg).

------
pmoriarty
Bill Wilson, one of the two founders of AA, was an enthusiastic proponent of
using LSD to treat alcoholism. He had taken LSD himself, found it helped him,
and thought it could help others.[1][2]

Needless to say, AA itself rejected this approach, and Wilson's experience
with and advocacy of LSD as a promising treatment for alcoholism is not
something they like to publicize.

[1] - [https://aaagnostica.org/2015/05/10/bill-wilsons-
experience-w...](https://aaagnostica.org/2015/05/10/bill-wilsons-experience-
with-lsd/)

[2] - [https://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/aug/23/lsd-help-
alc...](https://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/aug/23/lsd-help-alcoholics-
theory)

~~~
smt88
Considering the amazing preliminary results for LSD and ketamine in treating
depression and other illnesses likely related to neurotransmitter issues, I
won't be surprised at all if LSD helps addicts as well.

------
afarrell
Anecdotal experience with a men's AA group that a friend of mind joined (and
brought me along for moral support): a big part of the value that AA provides
is a support network for dealing with some of the trauma and self-loathing
that they had previously been using alcohol to drown out.

The degree of emotional intimacy in the relationships was something I missed
when I moved to a different city and (not being alcoholic) no longer felt
comfortable going to meetings.

~~~
alex_hitchins
The one thing I am noticing is that every group seems different. I have been
several times however found the religious aspect very off putting. I did find
being able to talk to others helpful however. If there wasn't the god
bothering aspect I'd probably still go semi-frequently today having been sober
for over ten years now.

To anyone like me out there, anti-theist but alcoholic, it is probably still a
good idea to go to a meeting, at least once. Your group might be very
different and even if you don't agree with everything it will show you that
you aren't alone.

~~~
rvense
Meetings have made me very accepting of people with different views on these
subjects than myself. One story I often return to is of a guy who had been so
far gone, when he went to visit his mother the first time in years, she simply
closed the door in his face without saying a word. If a man's path from that
to healing involves Jesus, I am not going to stand in the way.

I can't remember ever having to explicitly ask for tolerance of my non-belief.
We speak for ourselves, in the meetings and afterwards.

I should say that I'm not in the US, and that this might be reflective of
being in a society where public displays of religiosity are, generally, less
common and less accepted.

~~~
alex_hitchins
I am in the UK.

I was certainly welcomed to the meetings and at no point felt uncomfortable or
was made to feel 'bad' for my non-belief. I just find when everyone talks of
how Jesus helped them, and the hand holding prayer sessions an obstacle to my
participation.

I believe it's possible to get sober without needing a 'higher-power'.

Interested to see the downvotes to my comment. HN is a funny place indeed!

~~~
erric
I dated a sober person in the AA program for a number of years. They had 15+
years which I applaud.

I agree with you that one of the things I didn't like was the whole higher
power cruft. They say it can be anything as long as you acknowledge that it's
greater then you. I know some people who's higher power was the sun or other
celestial bodies, because they were atheist and highly scientifically minded.

I'm with you, I believe it's possible to get sober without a higher power. I
think I remember reading some where that while AA doesn't publish success
rates, at one time they did and it's 5%, which is the same percent for cold
turkey.

~~~
alex_hitchins
Thanks for the comment.

My logic is that to overcome your addiction _you_ need to take control. Having
a higher power is unnecessary, you have to want to do it for yourself and only
you can actually achieve it. Others can help, but mentally, physically and
emotionally it needs to be all your own work or it won't work.

That said, if it works for people then great! I think such an organisation is
very important, it's just a shame for me I can't participate as the I disagree
with the fundamental element. Ancillary stuff is great.

If there was need for it, I'd be up for helping with any online,
atheist/secular AA style program. I feel some sort of duty to help others as
unless you have been there, through all the shite that goes with it, it's hard
to understand.

~~~
erric
Right on!

It's funny, I was raised in a restrictive religious environment and rebelled
against it early on. I remember asking my dad one day why god couldn't help me
clean my room, the response was, "God helps those who help them selves".

So I do the work and he gets credit? No thank you!

You're absolutely correct, it is up to you. There are external(non super
natural) forces that can help, but ultimately it is the internal that has to
start and sustain through change.

------
onan_barbarian
So... the big factor muddying the waters for AA is that it is, in many cases a
state-sanctioned option where "anonymous" behavior modification (have you
checked in with your sponsor?) takes on the force of law. It's possible to
have a substantial variation in your treatment by the courts as a result of
whether heavily AA-associated folks around you say that you are getting with
the program or whether you are still in 'denial' (it's not just a river in
Egypt, fnarr fnarr). I have met people whose continued freedom as non-
violators of probation or parole more or less depends on the say-so of various
quasi-governmental types as to whether they are paying lip service to Bill
Wilson.

I'm going to say that I'm fine with the idea that if people find the rooms
work for them, great. However, the idea that a program that doesn't show any
real statistical effectiveness as compared to secular programs should be
adopted by the state is creepy and weird and fucked up, and no amount of
bullshit dodges ("your higher power can be a cat, or a doorknob") makes this
less fucked up.

~~~
ilovetux
I agree, I do not like the idea of mandating a twelve step program in a legal
setting. It actually makes the rooms a little more hostile, but it is accepted
because maybe one of the people ordered to attend might be willing and ready
to take part in recovery and it would be a shame for that person to miss out.

I was ordered to attend, but luckily it was after a long time being in the
rooms willingly.

------
avuton
My father was an alcoholic and went to meetings for over 20 years. Then, one
day he felt strong enough to stop going to meetings. A few years later, he was
dependant on opioids, which began as a perscription to back pain. I have my
doubts he would have gone this direction had he still had the support of being
"in the program".

Also, I'd say I've been to well over 100 of these meetings as a youth. I'm
really happy I did, as it led me to see how some of the most beautiful people
lost everything due to their substance abuse issues, which in turn led me to
lead a clean life.

------
youdontknowtho
Look. The posts talking from experience about naltrexone and therapy are
good...But let's not mislead people.

AA has been incredibly successful over the years. Yes, it needs to be done in
conjunction with therapy. Yes, psycho-pharma can help in massive ways. Those
are things that anyone trying to get sober should also look at.

AA doesn't work for all personality types. But it's far too fashionable for
armchair scientists on the internet to shit on something that has helped more
people than you can possibly imagine.

Just because you are a smart person and you get all the jokes in Rick and
Morty doesn't mean that you are the all singing all dancing voice of
dispassionate inquiry. There are people that need to know that help if
available to them and that it works.

Your opinions on this and most other subjects are useless, but in this case it
might stop someone from getting help.

If you think you have a problem, please talk to a doctor or find an AA
chapter. They will help you.

~~~
astura
AA has not been "incredibly successful" over the years, that's just factually
incorrect. AA fails for the vast majority of people who try it.

[https://www.vox.com/policy-and-
politics/2018/1/2/16181734/12...](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-
politics/2018/1/2/16181734/12-steps-aa-na-studies)

>Lance Dodes, a retired psychiatry professor from Harvard Medical School,
looked at Alcoholics Anonymous’s retention rates along with studies on
sobriety and rates of active involvement (attending meetings regularly and
working the program) among AA members. Based on these data, he put AA’s actual
success rate somewhere between 5 and 8 percent. That is just a rough estimate,
but it’s the most precise one I’ve been able to find.

A big reason why people criticized AA/12-steps is because it is not evidence
based and, frankly, some of it teachings are factually incorrect.

And the biggest problem with AA is stated in TFA: "rigid interpretations of
the 12 steps can even lead people to reject treatments or approaches that work
for some people."

Expecting a treatment to be evidence based isn't being "an armchair
scientist." We should absolutely demand evidence based treatment!!

AA is really just a support group/fellowship. There's nothing wrong with that,
but it's not a medical treatment so let's not keep pretending it is. I think
this quote from TFA is spot on: "...one of the big non-spiritual reasons that
12-step treatment and AA work for some people: They help foster changes in a
person’s social network."

[https://psmag.com/.amp/social-justice/75-years-alcoholics-
an...](https://psmag.com/.amp/social-justice/75-years-alcoholics-anonymous-
time-admit-problem-74268)

>In any other area of medicine, if your doctor told you that the cure for your
disease involved surrendering to a “higher power,” praying to have your
“defects of character” lifted, and accepting your “powerlessness,” as outlined
in the original 12 steps, you’d probably seek a second opinion.

------
ianbicking
Kind of tangential, but I found the AA 12 traditions really interesting; these
aren't about recovery, but about how the groups are organized:

1\. Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon A.A.
unity.

2\. For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority – a loving God
as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted
servants; they do not govern.

3\. The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking.

4\. Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups
or A.A. as a whole.

5\. Each group has but one primary purpose – to carry its message to the
alcoholic who still suffers.

6\. An A.A. group ought never endorse, finance, or lend the A.A. name to any
related facility our outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property, and
prestige divert us from our primary purpose.

7\. Every A.A. group ought to be fully self-supporting, declining outside
contributions.

8\. Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever non-professional, but our
service centers may employ special workers.

9\. A.A., as such, ought never be organized; but we may create service boards
and committees directly responsible to those they serve.

10\. Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the A.A.
name ought never be drawn into public controversy.

11\. Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion;
we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio, and
films.

12\. Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our traditions, ever
reminding us to place principles before personalities.

Specifically I find it interesting how the anonymity really comes out not in
how people relate to each other, but in how the group relates to the world:
there are no formal leaders, entanglements are avoided, professionalization is
avoided, and the rules keep the concept of AA from being confused with any
individual. The traditions feel like a kind of governance to avoid governance.

~~~
undersuit
I really like the traditions. I think they are a very good foundation for
keeping small groups of people cooperating and I wish they were emphasized
more outside of recovery programs.

------
zafka
I have not had a drink for 33 years. I know a fair amount about AA. One fact
is that one of the principles of AA is to maintain anonymity at the level of
"press, radio and film" This principle has been stretched quite a bit in
recent years, but if I was a member, I would not state it in print. I think
one of the best description of how/why AA works is by Charlie Munger (Warren
Buffet's Partner) in his book "Poor Charlie's Almanack" He describes the
various mental models that we humans use, and talks about how AA uses the
"Lollapalooza Effect" to help alcoholics beat their addiction. One big issue
with AA, as brought out in the article here, is that there is no official AA
regulatory branch. In any given cluster there is self policing, but a new
person must be aware that this society is a great place for Con artists to
hide out also. I know many people who have stopped drinking and gone on to
great lives. I also have a great collection of stories about crazy people and
cons I have met along the way. TLDR summary: AA really works, but especially
at the beginning- be careful.

~~~
gedy
> I also have a great collection of stories about crazy people and cons I have
> met along the way.

Sounds interesting and would love to read a blog post if you write one.

~~~
zafka
Thanks, I have been planning to start writing when I grow up for quite some
time now.

------
smt88
Anecdata aside, it seems like almost no one here has read the article. It
talks about research, the scathing Atlantic article, and medication.

My take is this: AA works for some people. That doesn't mean it should be
"prescribed". It varies from meeting to meeting, it's shame-based text (Big
Book) might cause harm, and secular support groups seem likely to work as well
or better.

No one is saying AA didn't work _for you_. That's just a totally different
argument than "AA should be society's first (and sometimes only) treatment for
the disease known as alcohol addiction."

------
Scarblac
I wish there was something like AA (or any effective treatment) for Internet
addiction. Its special feature is that you can't realistically quit the
Internet entirely, especially when you have a profession that relies on
constant Internet access.

~~~
smt88
I seriously doubt the disease model of alcohol addiction is analogous to
Internet addiction...

But there are support groups for almost everything, and there's always talk
therapy for your own individual struggles.

------
reidacdc
My father was in AA, and I'm reasonably sure it saved his life, or at least
lengthened it substantially. It was a major factor in getting him out of a
spiral of depression and business failure.

For him, it put him in touch with a community that understood his depression
(in a way that I, in particular, never did), and helped him work through that.
Stopping drinking was ultimately almost incidental -- it was the initial goal,
obviously, but that was only the beginning.

He also said he saw a lot of people come in to the program because they felt
like they needed to tick a box labelled "recovery". Some of them had been sent
by the courts as a condition of getting visitation rights for their children,
or by well-meaning marriage counselors, or to prove to themselves or others
that recovery was impossible. Very few of those people stopped drinking and
changed their lives. If ticking the box was their goal, then arguably it's a
success by that metric, but by the program's own goals, of course it wasn't.

From his point of view, AA is a tool, if you want to change your life, you can
use the AA steps and community to do it, and your odds are fair, although of
course there are no guarantees ever.

------
cmos
I stopped drinking four years ago.

What is consistently missing in the conversation about addiction is Alan
Carr's book "The Easy Way to Stop Drinking" and "The Easy Way to Stop Smoking"

reddit/r/stopdrinking is also an invaluable resource.

------
megaman22
My experience is that people that really get into AA and find it useful have
translated one addiction, to alcohol, into another, AA meetings. People that
go to a meeting, or more than one, every single day, and get twitchy if they
don't get their fix. I suppose that's healthier than getting blotto all the
time, but it's not something most people can tolerate, and is difficult to
sustain.

It wouldn't be so bad if it was a program solely for people that needed that
kind of overriding presence in their life, but AA is also swollen with people
that are forced into it because they've fucked up and are court-mandated to
attend for X weeks because they made a poor decision and got pinched for a DUI
or other alcohol-related brush with the legal system. For those people, it's
something they need to endure, and get to the other side of, so that they can
get on with their life, and the AA model of perpetual recovery and rhetoric
about "dry drunks" if they don't buy in is actively harmful.

~~~
astura
Yeah, I have a family member who gets his kids for the weekend and instead of
interacting with them he leaves them in his house in front of the TV while he
drives from AA meeting to AA meeting. All weekend! And he hasn't even drunk
alcohol in like 20 years.

------
chiefalchemist
The brain is complex. Addiction is complicated. It's just not reasonable -
based on our current knowledge of both - to expect every treatment to work
everytime for every person.

Perhaps some day we'll figure out how to get the brain to completely unlearn
addition. We're not there yet. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

p.s. despise is not a good word for this context.

~~~
VLM
addition is an interesting typo because essentially whats going on is
brainwashing for the purpose of eliminating an addiction, and we have massive
brainwashing infrastructure around substituting many phrases in the place of
"addiction" although addition would not have been the first choice LOL.

We have enormous budgets trying to brainwash us to buy laundry detergents and
cars and vote for politicians but as we know from extensive work in those
fields that the individual susceptibility to brainwashing varies quite a bit
by individual, demographic, culture, etc. It would not be a excessive
extension to propose that anti-addiction brainwashing is likewise highly
unpredictable.

The good side of alcoholism being uncurable is if we found a brainwashing
method to perfectly eliminate it, the technique or pill or meme or whatever
would be abused for consumerism and political purposes into an amazing
dystopia. Admittedly a sober alcoholism free dystopia, but a horrific dystopia
none the less.

~~~
chiefalchemist
I'm reading "The Brain That Changes Itself." Thus far, very interesting.

------
fortythirteen
Anecdotal, but from my own experiences with recovering (and not recovering)
addicts in my family, the AA/NA approach seems to only redirect addiction away
from the drugs or alcohol outlet, instead of "curing the disease" of addiction
itself.

All the recovering addicts I know are still addicted to something in one way
or another. The new addiction may or may not be a healthy one. For instance,
running 100+ miles a week, every week - while objectively better than drinking
yourself out of a job and home - isn't exactly "healthy".

I also notice a higher level of selfish behavior among the recovering addicts
I know. It takes an insane amount of pathological selfishness to neglect your
responsibilities, especially children, for the bottle. AA doesn't seem to
address the selfishness as much as just to get folks to stop drinking.

All of this is preferable to having a raging drug or alcohol addict in the
family, but it's far from a perfect solution IMHO.

~~~
nullIsAnObject
> All the recovering addicts I know are still addicted to something in one way
> or another. The new addiction may or may not be a healthy one. For instance,
> running 100+ miles a week, every week - while objectively better than
> drinking yourself out of a job and home - isn't exactly "healthy".

So very, _very_ frequently, addiction isn't "the" problem, it's a symptom of
one. The behaviors you mentioned are in the same vein, something used as a way
to work around whatever the problem may be. In my case, the relief I
experienced from alcohol blocking out an underlying anxiety problem I didn't
understand I had (and made me not care about the ADHD problem I knew I did
have), it was like a miracle. The inability to speak to others, rationally
work through life's tough issues, heck even my grades went UP... everything
got better. And for a good 16 years it kept on being that miracle to me, going
so far as to hide the worsening social, emotional, and mental calamities it
was causing.

> I also notice a higher level of selfish behavior among the recovering
> addicts I know. It takes an insane amount of pathological selfishness to
> neglect your responsibilities, especially children, for the bottle.

Funny thing about this... I've come to believe that most folks who haven't
experienced addiction just can't initially grasp the fact that (assuming an
underlying psychological/emotional issue), the addict doesn't see the
addiction as selfish, even when it disrupts everything else in their lives.
There's this inexplicable compartmentalization that occurs when self-
medicating via addiction, sort of like, "They don't understand how this helps
me!". Which, in a way is true; they don't. But neither does the addict. Most
folks who are on their way down to the rock-bottom don't understand that the
activity or substance is a (terrible, and temporary) way to deal with a larger
problem they either don't know they have or don't know how to properly
address. All they know is that it works. Even when their destructive behavior
completely isolates them, leaving them feeling alone and hopeless because it
feels like everyone is against helping you to feel better, it still feels like
it works.

> AA doesn't seem to address the selfishness as much as just to get folks to
> stop drinking.

AA, in its own way, does its level best to address this given the
understanding of psychology/psychiatry at the time the Big Book was written.
And to be fair, if everyone actually mustered up enough strength and humility
to get past Step 5 (heh, myself included), this might be less of a concern.
But from a 30k foot view, it IS a good framework to approach lasting recovery,
and you replace "selfishness" with "underlying psychological problem causing
the addiction" in your observation, it's probably a bit more of a clearer
picture. For me, and for the vast majority of the wonderful people I lived
with during my 6 months in a sober living facility, meetings were only going
to be as effective as long as I was being monitored. Some folks (like myself)
even found that attending meetings and hearing stories about drinking was a
trigger, and although I appreciated the friendships, it was counterproductive.

What ultimately and completely removed my desire to self-medicate with
whatever was on hand was CBT. The meetings were absolutely necessary for the
initial support I needed to stop the destructive behavior, but CBT gave me the
tools I truly needed to understand why I felt the way I did, and how to handle
the thoughts and emotions that seemed to come from nowhere all my life.
Although I am a believer (and give Him the credit for all I am today!), CBT
has the benefit of not requiring anything other than walking the difficult
path through your own screwiness. Once you've acquired the tools to handle
your own brain, attending meetings may not even be necessary in order to
maintain lasting sobriety. As always, YMMV, CBT is powerful enough that I'm of
the mind non-addicts oughta do it too. Heck, the world would probably be less
messed-up place.

Today, I'm ok with not tracking my time spent sober or keeping a heavy
constant focus on what was a symptom of my problems. I'm screwed up in all
kinds of clinically fascinating ways, but now I deal with it sans substances.

------
thrownaway954
Despite it or love it... all I know is that the fellowships and programs of
both AA and NA saved my life, so they worked for me. Thank you Bill and Jimmy
and the countless others that came after you.

Does that mean it will work for you??? Who knows? Thing is, what do you have
to lose by giving it a try? If it doesn't work, we can always refund your
misery (that's an AA joke, lighten up, rule 62).

In all seriousness, whatever treatments or programs you follow which help you
overcome your addiction, ( whether its AA, NA, CA, HA, a different A, church,
signage, template, rehab, treatment center including Malibu Recovery ) doesn't
matter as long as you get better. And don't let anyone ( including me!!! )
tell you different!!!!

"My God bless you and keep you til then"

~~~
astura
The potential harm was given in this article:

"In some cases, rigid interpretations of the 12 steps can even lead people to
reject treatments or approaches that work for some people."

There's a huge for-profit, unregulated "rehab industry" in the US that charges
insane amounts of money for all sorts of unproven "treatment." There's harm in
getting fleeced to line someone else's pockets.

------
bufferoverflow
AA refuses to publish the data on their effectiveness. Which tells me they are
not as good as other secular options.

~~~
AmVess
They used to. It's 5%.

Effectiveness for quitting cold turkey...is 5%.

~~~
addicted
I can't imagine they ever published the data since I can't imagine how they
could even collect it.

Anyone can walk in and no one needs to provide any identifying information so
how would you be able to track anyone over any period of time?

~~~
AmVess
They used to publish the effectiveness but quit in the early 80's.

It's easy to track anonymous users when the same anonymous users show up for
the same meetings for years. AA has had a LOT of meetings over the years, so
coming up with a baseline of effectiveness isn't a vexing problem.

Why they quit publishing those numbers isn't exactly a mystery, either.

------
GalacticDomin8r
Somewhat dated, but good:

[https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-secrets.html](https://www.orange-
papers.info/orange-secrets.html)

------
youdontknowtho
Here's what a lot of you are saying:

This treatment devised by sick people for sick people out of desperation
doesn't make much sense to me as a healthy person. It doesn't feel very
science-y when I think about it.

And a lot of you are quoting Pen and Teller. Good work, you can watch TV.
Thanks for you input.

~~~
finaliteration
Some of us “healthy” people have seen our parents, siblings, spouses, and/or
friends go into programs like AA and NA and come out no better or even worse
off than before.

Our anecdotal evidence is just as good as yours.

------
pluma
Those that swear by it are those that defeated their alcohol reliance while in
AA or replaced their alcohol reliance with a reliance on AA events.

Those that despise it are either aware that AA is a placebo at best and a
distraction at worst or they loathe it because it is so heavily established as
"that thing you do to manage alcohol problems" that courts can send you there
(even if you're not an addict and the reason you ended up in court was poor
judgment, e.g. DUI).

~~~
docdeek
> Those that swear by it are those that defeated their alcohol reliance while
> in AA or replaced their alcohol reliance with a reliance on AA events.

It’s anecdotal but in my case I replaced a reliance on alcohol by a reliance
on sports. It’s likely a lot healthier than drinking but it’s a
reliance/addiction all the same. I went to a few AA meetings and it didn’t
work so well for me, always seemed to be a lot of guilt and shame floating
around the room, though this could have just been my local meeting, too. In
the end, it works for some people and that’s great. It didn’t work for me but
I found another way, and that’s great, too.

~~~
pluma
The only problem with saying "it works for some people and that's great" is
that it is known that sending people to AA performs worse than just leaving
people to their own devices.

If you get the flu it takes about two to three weeks to recover from it
naturally. Imagine there's a flu cure that extends that to two to six weeks.
Sure, some people take the cure and get better in two weeks while some who
don't may only get better after three weeks. But it's still blindingly obvious
that you'd be better off avoiding it and those that got better after two weeks
would have likely recovered as quickly on their own (or using a different
cure).

Some AA advocates argue AA has a higher success rate than widely reported but
the problem is that AA is extremely secretive about the actual numbers and
sees recovery as a lifestyle rather than a process. AA doesn't aim to cure
alcoholism, it just aims to keep people sober.

Some people simply are more prone to addiction. Teaching these people to cope
by channeling that addiction into something healthier than drugs (or gambling
or whatever) is great but that's not really what AA aims to do.

