
Thiel Urges U.S. Probe of Google's 'Seemingly Treasonous' Acts - talentedcoin
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-07-15/thiel-urges-u-s-probe-of-google-s-seemingly-treasonous-acts
======
dleslie
This part is worth considering:

> Thiel, a Facebook Inc. board member, argued that the kind of AI developed by
> DeepMind, which like Google is a subsidiary of Alphabet Inc., should be
> thought of as a potential “military weapon.” “We’ve been a lot more
> dishonest about that in Silicon Valley than the nuclear physicists were in
> the 1940s,” he said in the opening speech at the National Conservatism
> conference.

If one believes this to be true, then how you consider its use to be
weaponized can dramatically alter one's view of both Google and Facebook.

If it's a weapon like strong encryption, then it is a defensive measure for
the benefit of their users, as they are sheltered and made safe by its use.

If it's a weapon like any other, then its use is an attack upon those it
tracks and analyzes, as they are made less private, more vulnerable, and
easier to manipulate.

Somehow I don't think Thiel is arguing that Facebook is attacking American
citizens, though.

~~~
remarkEon
Isn't he?

I mean, he started his talk[1] out by posing the question "Is Big Tech good
for the U.S.?", which frankly seems like a question worth exploring -
especially since the reflexive position of most everyone (e.g. those who post
on HN) would be in the affirmative, and likely emphatically so. Being
contrarian to a fault, I expect that there's _something_ Thiel thinks is under
attack here. Be it more broad things like the general fraying of social and
civil cohesion through social media use, or more specific things like Google's
enabling of the Chinese surveillance apparatus, Thiel at least has a starting
point in this argument. I can't find a video so I don't know what he actually
said but below are some notes I found (that seem to mostly rehash what he's
said in a bunch of other places, so he obviously seems to think it's an
effective rhetorical payload).

[1] [https://medium.com/@bonniekavoussi/notes-from-peter-
thiels-s...](https://medium.com/@bonniekavoussi/notes-from-peter-thiels-
speech-at-the-national-conservatism-conference-on-july-14-2019-6a51b26b202)

~~~
SpicyLemonZest
I don't think he's really making a point about social cohesion here. It seems
like what he's asking is "has the US captured Big Tech well enough to make
sure the gains don't leak out to other countries?"

~~~
remarkEon
That's certainly a possibility, yes, though I think he'd index a lot more on
explicitly defining what these "gains" actually are.

------
temp1827
I mean, he has a point. It's clear U.S. tech companies have become hugely
susceptible to hiring foreign spies and the issue of foreign governments
stealing IP is real. There was a very recent public case of Apple's autonomous
driving unit stopping a Chinese engineer from leaving the country just as he
was bound for China after detecting he had uploaded a bunch of code to a
personal account. And most likely many more cases like that we've never heard
of publicly.

~~~
nemothekid
1\. Almost every tech company has been acutely aware of China stealing IP for
decades now. It's not a new point.

2\. Where did Thiel make this point? Thiel does not make the point that the
Chinese are stealing US IP. He makes the charged point that _Google
executives_ (and somehow not Facebook executives) are Chinese agents. To that
claim, I don't think he "has a point".

It's in very bad taste to me that Thiel would point this out, and claim the
Valley "is getting a little bit of a bad conscience" when he sits on the board
of the biggest troublemaker.

When Google leaks the personal data of millions of Americans, then maybe
should Thiel start throwing stones.

~~~
remarkEon
>when he sits on the board of the biggest troublemaker.

Why is this some kind of detraction from his larger point? If he has a problem
with how Facebook is being run - or has concerns with _their_ implementation
of AI - then of course he'd want to retain his seat. How else would he
influence the company?

~~~
Aunche
I find it highly improbable that the board of Facebook would do anything
besides act as yes-men to Zuckerberg and Sandberg who are making them
boatloads of money.

~~~
cameronbrown
The board has no power over zuck. Not enough anyway.

------
r00fus
Bloomberg goes a long way to avoid saying that Thiel was speaking at the
_National Conservatism Conference_ , a conference with a very biased audience
in mind.

Just look at the other speech titles like "The Nationalist Awakening". Can
this be taken as anything but pure propaganda?

~~~
tomcam
Do you have reason to disagree with any of the facts he presented?

~~~
thecleaner
You can't just throw around the word treason. More than Google Fb should be
investigated.

~~~
tomcam
I agree with both statements. But apparently you have no quarrel with the
facts he presented.

------
wyldfire
The treasonous-ness seems like an exaggeration/distortion of [1].

> “The work that Google is doing in China is indirectly benefiting the Chinese
> military,” Marine General Joseph Dunford, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of
> Staff, said during a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing.

[1] [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-
google/googles-...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-
google/googles-..).

~~~
0xCMP
Fixed link [https://www.reuters.com/article/usa-china-google/googles-
wor...](https://www.reuters.com/article/usa-china-google/googles-work-in-
china-indirectly-benefiting-chinese-military-us-general-idUSL1N2110XF)

------
oger
I once met Peter Thiel at an event and kindly asked him if he ever had a
'Robert Oppenheimer moment' with his investment in Palantir. Not surprisingly
he diverted and did not provide an answer at all. His non-answer was most
telling to me and made me think about his ethics. At least a certain level of
reasoning or even PR spin about the positive effects would have been better
than this. I left deeply unimpressed about our first and only encounter.

------
logicchains
Anyone who thinks Google executives are exfiltrating core IP to China clearly
hasn't ever used Baidu, the leading Chinese search engine that makes Bing look
good.

~~~
ehsankia
Microsoft and Apple do business in China, yet somehow it's Google that's
apparently working with the Chinese. These people are honestly out of their
mind.

~~~
c1b
?

The logic is really not too complicated. China is using AI to spy on citizens
-- Google is creating and freely publishing state of the art versions of this
AI. It's pretty clear that there is a worry here.

~~~
scarejunba
Perhaps it is Linus Torvalds who is the real villain, making freely available
a crucial piece of software that China is using to power its surveillance
infrastructure. I say we put him to death for his treasonous actions against
the free world.

------
darkpuma
Probably worth noting that deliberately aiding the Chinese military is not
treason in America right now because America and China aren't at war. It might
be other things: unpatriotic, espionage, etc. But not treason itself. Even the
Rosenbergs didn't get convicted of treason (America and the Soviet Union were
not _actually_ at war. It was illegal to give nuclear secrets to the Soviets,
but it wasn't treason.)

So generally whenever somebody in America mentions treason, they're being
hyperbolic or misleading, or have themselves been mislead. Generally.

~~~
reallydude
> So generally whenever somebody in America mentions treason, they're being
> hyperbolic or misleading,

Some people simply don't need to understand the distinction between similarly
used terms. In the end, prosecutors can file multiple charges but practically
pick and choose based on a variety of factors.

~~~
jkaplowitz
Prosecutors in the US can't validly charge treason in all but the most
extremely rare circumstances, though.

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against
them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person
shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the
same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court."

(This comes straight from the Constitution, hence the weird capitalization and
punctuation.)

The Supreme Court has clarified the definition above, and indeed, it can't
apply where no actual assemblage of force against the US was being prepared or
used by either the defendant or the enemy to which one is being accused of
adhering and giving aid or comfort. Maayyybe the Supreme Court will extend
this to cyberwarfare, but that's hard to predict and they certainly haven't
yet.

Anyway, regardless, the two-witness requirement for every single overt act
involved is a very high bar.

------
gonvaled
If Google trade secrets are relevant for national security, non US governments
shouldn't allow Google to operate without revealing those trade secrets to
their intelligence agencies.

------
schappim
Related story on HN:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20439624](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20439624)

~~~
temp1827
Why was that flagged?

~~~
DuskStar
I would assume because the Bloomberg article and Gizmodo article have rather
different levels of bias, and that Bloomberg and Gizmodo have significantly
different levels of credibility.

~~~
r00fus
Bloomberg still hasn't explained why they published the hit piece on
Supermicro/Apple that hasn't been proven or even followed up on.

I'd say they do have bias, but it's questionable which has more credibility.

------
steve19
Thiel is on Facebook's board. So he is on the board of a Google competitor and
a company with atrocious morals.

Maybe he is just trying to take the heat off Facebook and send Congress in a
different direction.

~~~
matchagaucho
Seems more like a Palantir motivated position.

------
vackosar
Why was this flagged? By the way here is a link to recording
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JRyy2MM-
rI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JRyy2MM-rI)

------
buboard
Might this be informed from evidence he has knowledge about? After all he is
very close to Palantir.

------
carusooneliner
Video of the Peter Thiel speech: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JRyy2MM-
rI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JRyy2MM-rI)

------
Nasrudith
Really Thiel's frankly fascistic rhetoric is far more treasonous than even the
absurd worst case of "Google gave access to literally all of their technical
data to gain market entry". And here he is calling for abusing power to stifle
dissent for exercising their rights of who they work with. What they and the
nationalist bedwetter coalition forget is that the Military serves the
Civilians. Not the other way around.

The whole accusation is recursive bullshit if not fractal bullshit on so many
levels. Essentially anything can be considered weaponized. Not only would cars
count but when it came out freeze dried food would count as 'weaponized'
because of logistical advantages. US government's efforts at promoting
cybersecurity have been pretenses to gain power while making it less secure.

~~~
ailideex
> Really Thiel's frankly fascistic rhetoric is far more treasonous

How so?

~~~
didibus
Not OP, but I'm guessing in the same sense that communist activists used to
(still are?) be considered treasonous. Like any active promotion and support
against a free democracy and towards another means of organizing society, so
fascism, dictatorship, feudal, communist, etc., could be seen as treasonous in
a way.

~~~
ailideex
I see, I was not aware that Thiel was "active promotion and support against a
free democracy and towards another means of organizing society" \- if that is
the case then I guess it would make sense to say he is treasonous. Seems like
that would be a relevant tidbit of information to include in the article.

~~~
didibus
Oh, I don't know if Thiel is or isn't. But the parent comment implied that he
had Fascistic rhetoric. I don't really follow Thiel, so I can't confirm or
deny if he's rhetoric is fascistic or not. If it were though, with his level
of power and influence, it could be seen as a challenge to the US democracy.

Edit: After doing some quick research, there definitely seem to be evidence of
support and active involvement in anti-democratic circles. Now to what extent
I can't say. It is also unclear if it is intentional, as in, he could be
accidentally promoting and contributing to those circles. But I found sections
describing his beliefs that women suffrage was a mistake (because they tend to
vote against his agenda), that monarchies aren't so bad and startups are a
form of them, that democracy prevents libertarianism and are thus incompatible
etc. Now, those could all be misquoted or out of context ofcourse. Even then
though, he seems pretty open about the fact that he is not in agreement with
the current democratic system and wishes to change it. It all feels a bit my
way or the highway. Like since he hasn't been able to have people
democratically agree with him and pass the laws and rules which he believes
in, he started to look for other alternative means in order to achieve putting
those laws and rules in place, which are anti-democratic and tend towards
forceful.

------
thrwayxyz
I interviewed with him once.

Got on the short list by telling the recruiter that "Palantir is a bunch of
really smart guys run by a Bond villain". Not sure if that ever got back, but
not being thrown out of the process tells me a lot about the company.

~~~
ALittleLight
Doesn't it say as much about you that you were applying to work there?

~~~
thrwayxyz
If you think that's bad you should see the startup I'm trying to get funding
for.

~~~
WillySchu
I'll take ya up on that. Show me?

~~~
thrwayxyz
Multipart project. It starts with artificial uteri to harvest neural
stemcells, probably from rats, then gets worse.

If you have 500k to invest I can send you some of the preliminary results and
the roadmap for the next few stages.

------
fzeroracer
Considering Thiel's other...business ventures, this is about as 'throwing a
stone while living in a glass house' as it gets.

------
robbintt
It's hard to take anyone with such a cutthroat capitalist mindset as anything
but the sum of their incentives. That goes for Thiel especially because he's
promoted this as a strict political belief system.

------
CalChris
Is this Thiel speaking about treason as a New Zealand citizen or as a US
citizen?

~~~
rndgermandude
He is speaking as Merkel's boy :D

------
tibbydude
Is he the new Joseph McCarthy ???. Instead of Slavic commies we now have to
look for Asian commies behind every bush ???.

~~~
scarejunba
There was a time in San Francisco when everything was blamed on "Chinese
steel" until we suddenly found out that Dyson Steel is from Ohio. Then there
was deafening silence. Tribalism is a powerful drug.

------
_iyig
Having canceled Project Maven and dropped out of competition for the DoD cloud
contract on principle, Google continues to operate an AI center in Beijing.
They host conferences with Chinese companies and research institutions who
they tutor on the use of Google's ML tools.

How much of this knowledge (much of it focused on computer vision and image
understanding) has been applied to China's surveillance program in Xinjiang,
which has put over 1 million ethnic Uighurs in concentration camps? Why has
Google continued to operate their China AI center, which aids and educates
China's state-controlled enterprises, while refusing to work with the US
government even on vanilla I.T. systems?

[0] [https://www.scmp.com/tech/article/2165209/google-shrugs-
trad...](https://www.scmp.com/tech/article/2165209/google-shrugs-trade-war-
shanghai-ai-event-says-partnering-china-talent)

~~~
dang
It seems that you're using HN primarily for political/ideological/national
battle. Would you please not? We ban accounts that do that because it destroys
the curiosity this site is supposed to be far. Admittedly there's not much
curiosity in a highly charged thread like this one, but there's a difference
between accounts that lapse occasionally into this and accounts that primarily
propagate it.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

------
starpilot
Google certainly needs to be kept in check. We've been too trusting. It is
obvious that their search engineers are not simply cool-headed logicians
systematically analyzing the foundations of knowledge. They are deeply
involved emotionally in their attack on truth and reality.

