
A map of depression rates around the world - wallzz
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/11/07/a-stunning-map-of-depression-rates-around-the-world/
======
Camillo
That map is a really bad visualization. They're showing a single numeric
variable with a limited scale, so all they need to express graphically is a
level between "empty" and "full". They should have mapped it to a single axis
that intuitively corresponds to that notion: for example, a simple scale
between white and red would have been perfect.

But instead, they decided to have a scale between red and blue, which goes
through purple if it's an admixture of the two colors. But then they would
just have had a few colors with more or less the sale lightness and
saturation, but different hues, and there's really no intuitive reason why
purple should be perceived as "more" or "less" than blue. So instead they made
a three-point scale going from red to white and then to blue (look at the pink
and light blue colors next to the center to see that this is what they did);
except that now white looks like "empty", and redder and bluer colors look
increasingle "full", except in opposite directions: the only situation where
this makes sense is when you have relative numbers, and white is zero, red is
positive and blue is negative. But then it would look like Iran has lots of
depression, Brazil has no depression, and Australia has... negative
depression?

They could tell that something looked wrong, but what? "A-ha! Of course!" \-
thought the graphic designer - "a mix of red and blue is purple, not white!"
So he replaced the white in the middle cell with purple, leaving the
neighboring pinks and light blues unchanged. So now the scale goes "red, red
but a little whiter, white but a little redder, PURPLE, white but a little
bluer, blue but a little whiter, blue", and nothing makes sense. Good job!

~~~
hajderr
What do you think is the reason for this? A bunch of propaganda that we're
well off here in the 'safe' part of the world?

Love this comment from the article

"I'm sure we've got high quality, nationally representative data out of the
Congo."

~~~
roel_v
Your paranoia is not only annoying, but also quite insulting to the
researchers involved. Contrary to your perceived 'the Man is holding me down',
not everybody is out to 'deceive' you. The reason is likely purely functional,
as I explained in a comment above, and I'd even agree with the choices of
colors of the authors - they show more clearly than the proposed white-red
where in the world there is more depression.

Furthermore, if you don't believe this particular studies' findings of
depression rates, I would invite you to look into the decades of research into
suicide rates, depression or just the flow of immigrants from the countries in
the red in the map to those in the blue as a proxy for overall happiness and
perceived life opportunities, and to draw your own conclusions.

~~~
hajderr
Sure, just check

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_r...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate)

Where you can find a good mix of 'blue' countries such as US, Japan, India,
Russia, Norway, China and Sweden. So it doesn't tell me THAT much
unfortunately.

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jader201
Am I missing something fundamental here?

Is depression diagnoses really so objective that we can not only compare
diagnosis rates across the country, but across the world? Sort of like
comparing how good the pizza is in countries across the world, is it not?

It doesn't seem like this analysis holds much value, if any.

~~~
city41
I thought the same thing. I also think first world countries will diagnose the
disease far more. If for no other reason, there are expensive pharmaceuticals
to be sold.

~~~
harvestmoon
10% of Americans are on antidepressants. I really hope that rate isn't
consistent around the world.

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imperio59
If you read between the lines, it's clear the methodology used to extrapolate
this data is shaky at best, and borders on "you've never taken a statistics
class in your life" at worse.

Complete garbage... Favorite snippets: " The paper further cautions that
reliable depression surveys don’t even exist for some low-income countries --
a common issue with global studies -- forcing the researchers to come up with
their own estimates based on statistical regression models."

My interpretation: "There was no data so we guessed".

Terrible.

~~~
tgb
It really annoys me to see people judging studies based off of press coverage
of them. If you're going to accuse it of being shoddy, at least take five
minutes to read the paper. I'm not saying you're wrong, since I just spent
five minutes reading the paper and they do use an modelling tool in the way
that you suggest (and also use it to combine multiple reports from over the
years or reports with only partial information). It's just that it's very easy
to see something and wisely claim "Oh I bet they're making this laughable
mistake based off of some vague claim in an article I'm criticizing" which is
kind of harmful. I've said things in the past like "I read a study that X" and
immediately the other person was like "Oh but that's just correlation", which
is a good thing to think but seriously, it's not like the people writing these
studies don't know that correlation-isn't-causation and might have thought to
address that. I hadn't mentioned any methods used in the study because I
didn't recall any of them, yet the gross assumption that it was wrong was
still lept to. So if communities like Hacker News want to ever believe any
science report ever (and they probably do), then I really think people should
slow down and at least give the study the benefit of the doubt. You shouldn't
have to read between the lines - the actual study is free on PLOS. If you
don't have the time or expertise to read the paper, just pose this complaint
as a question instead and probably someone else here will do the work for you.

------
hkmurakami
There is NO way Japan's depression rate is that low. The culture does't treat
depression as a legitimate medical issue (their main remedy is along the lines
of "man up!") and I have to imagine that it's being severely underreported.

~~~
mahranch
Depression is over-exaggerated in Japan.

It's like those reports on how the salarymen work these long and crazy hours
and are ready to throw themselves off a building any minute but it's
_massively_ overblown.

Virtually _everything_ is overblown or sensationalized about Japan. It reminds
me of those herbivore men and "declining sex" articles that popped up
recently. Writers like to write about some obscure sub-culture or push some
misleading statistic and then write about it as if it applies the entire
country.

I lived there for 14 months and it wasn't what I expected at all. I was
prepared for massive culture shock but it just never happened. There was some,
but no more than one would experience on an extended vacation. Japan, in my
experience, is just like anywhere else.

~~~
Shinkei
Where in Japan were you living? I found people in the country to be much more
balanced and well-adjusted. But living in Tokyo and expecting to see 'culture
shock' may be disappointing because people are not so 'open' about their
social lives. A lot of the personal problems are kept away from the public eye
until it's too late and they are throwing themselves in front of a train,
hanging themselves in a forest or comitting seppuku in their homes. It's
classic honne/tatemae--you never saw what was beneath the surface.

~~~
mahranch
" _Where in Japan were you living?_ "

I was bounced around a bit, but most of my time was spent in Tokyo, Sapporo
and in Hachinohe.

~~~
hkmurakami
Off topic, but I'm jealous that you got to live in Sapporo :)

------
guard-of-terra
Ukraine having opposite result from Russia and Belarus lights the red
immediately. Why would it be so? The rest of data on the chart may be noise
too.

~~~
telephonetemp
That struck me as very questionably, too. Based on personal experience and
what I know about the economic state of the three countries I find it hard to
believe that Ukraine is somehow doing such better psychologically.

To convey an anecdote, on several occasions I was told by fairly well-traveled
people that the Eastern regions of Ukraine were the most miserable place
they'd been to in Europe.

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porker
I can't believe the UK is that low either. I wonder if it's because of the
clinical depression is defined as something more serious than "taking anti-
depressants or having CBT/Counselling"?

~~~
roel_v
Therapy and medication _work_ to treat depression (not for everybody, but
considered at macro level, they work). If you'd actually read the paper (which
it seems few people commenting have done, or maybe you/they don't understand),
by using DALY's (an accepted (by the community) proxy for 'impact' of a
disease), they account for the fact that since people in Western countries get
treatment at higher levels, the effects are less. E.g. if I get depressed and
get treatment, and work through this in a year, and somebody in Central Africa
gets it and lives with it for 15 years, then objectively I am better off and
should be counted at 1/15 th in the study (well actually you can debate that -
you can say 'I study the amount of people who get depressed'. Which is fine,
but different, and imo not nearly as interesting, except maybe for when you
look at the genetic disposition for depression).

I don't understand why people in this thread are so keen on trying to hold on
to the position that depression in the West is high compared to other places,
or even how they get to this position in the first place. To me it's quite
self-evident that living in constant fear of being shot, blown up or just
starving to death is more depressing than having to go through the agony of
standing in traffic an hour before you can go home and eat a warm meal before
falling asleep in front of the tv (to just name an example of what I've heard
people as reasons on why life in the West is so 'stressing' and 'depressing').

~~~
DanBC
The map is titled "Prevalence of diagnosed clinical depression".

It seems reasonable to complain that the diagram is confusing when it gives a
rate of 4% for the UK, when UK NHS figures give higher rates.

> I don't understand why people in this thread are so keen on trying to hold
> on to the position that depression in the West is high compared to other
> places

I don't think that's happened in this particular sub-thread. One reason it
happens is that some countries have better diagnosis than others. (Rates may
be higher in developing nations, but cases are undiagnosed.)

> To me it's quite self-evident that living in constant fear of being shot,
> blown up or just starving to death is more depressing than having to go
> through the agony of standing in traffic an hour before you can go home and
> eat a warm meal before falling asleep in front of the tv (to just name an
> example of what I've heard people as reasons on why life in the West is so
> 'stressing' and 'depressing').

That manages to be fantastically ignorant of developing nations _and_ mental
illness.

EDIT: Maybe I'm being stupid but I can't find that map in the linked research.
I go to figures and scroll through.
[http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fj...](http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pmed.1001547)

------
danso
Without commenting on the science or validity of the study...the map
implementation here could be improved, in fact, it's about as confusingly
implemented as an infographic could be.

First of all, it violates the "rainbow map" rule, in that a wide spectrum of
color is used to graph what is basically a very simple continuum: more
depression vs. less depression.

[http://eagereyes.org/basics/rainbow-color-
map](http://eagereyes.org/basics/rainbow-color-map)

Second of all, and most egregiously, it uses the _most confusing color scheme
possible._ At least in America, which is the WaPo's main audience, the color
blue is widely used to describe "depression" ('feeling the blues'). While red
is often used to describe a dangerous or very intense situation...it's not
really appropriate here, as red is also used for "passion", which is not
mutually exclusive to depression, but is not usually associated with it
either.

And the purple, rather than acting as a middle ground between "more" and
"less" depression, comes off as its own weird symbolism.

And why the f-ck is "gray" in _between_ blue and purple?

And of course, in America (and _especially_ among the audience that the
Washington Post serves), red and blue often indicate political thought.

It's hard to think of how this map could be any more confusing, even without
getting into the discussion of how country/state-color maps greatly distort
the quantities involved.

\----

That said, I was surprised to see that the United States ranked on the low
side...my intuition was that well-off countries had higher rates of reported
and diagnosed depression (first world problems and all that). But I had to
stare at the map for quite awhile to make sure I was reading it right...

Edit: Also, this stuck out:

> _The most depressed country is Afghanistan, where more than one in five
> people suffer from the disorder. The least depressed is Japan, with a
> diagnosed rate of less than 2.5 percent._

I know Japanese culture has the propensity to be greatly distorted by outside
observers...but how is it that a country that has among the highest suicide
rates in the world
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Japan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Japan))
also happens to have the lowest rates of depression? I mean, it's certainly
mathematically possible (e.g. clinically depressed Japanese, few as they are,
are also at the extreme edges of depression, or, Japanese suicides are
committed for reasons other than depression)...it's just a bit unexpected.

~~~
jrkatz
Regarding your edit, at no point is it said Japan has low incidence of
depression; the claim made is that they have few diagnoses of depression. The
article takes care to point this out. I would take these numbers to mean that
Japanese people are not receiving adequate treatment for their depression (of
which diagnosis is an obvious first step), contributing to the suicide rate.

~~~
mchaver
I would say that the title is slightly misleading. The map and article clearly
say that is clinically diagnosed depression, but that is not clear from the
title. By leaving out "clinically diagnosed" the title makes the article feel
like it has a stronger claim.

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kintamanimatt
What in the world is going on in the Netherlands? Why is this country such an
anomaly in terms of reported depression rates?

~~~
alwaysinshade
Good question - looking at the OECD Better Life Index [1] for the Netherlands:

 _In general, 86% of people in the Netherlands say they have more positive
experiences in an average day (feelings of rest, pride in accomplishment,
enjoyment, etc) than negative ones (pain, worry, sadness, boredom, etc), more
than the OECD average of 80%._

Perhaps it's a case of better access to health services, so more people in the
Netherlands are able to be diagnosed and treated with depression whereas
countries with poor health services and high levels of depression are
ultimately under-reported?

[1]
[http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/netherlands/](http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/netherlands/)

~~~
gpvos
I don't know; the contrast with Belgium, which despite cultural differences
has health services with similar quality, and I imagine has similar awareness,
is surprising. However, I have read anecdotal stories that mental health
service here in the Netherlands is rather bad compared to other countries.
Pressure to perform here may be on the high side, but I can't imagine it's
much higher than in the US or Germany.

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mkesper
I read the text...and got no usable info. Plus the awful map and a table
that's not sorted by rank but by region (thus only doubling the "information"
of the map).

Where can we downvote? ;)

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trurl123
I live in Russia, but I don't know anybody who diagnosed with depression. This
is very uncommon diagnosis. I think that these researchers used invalid data.

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ivanbrussik
communist / 3rd world countries pretty much win this one

