
The lost letters of the English alphabet - 2dvisio
https://omgfacts.com/we-used-to-have-6-more-letters-in-our-alphabet-a7e1a165853d#.cevdf6hzw
======
snarf21
This is kind of interesting as this weekend I randomly came across the history
of &. It was once taught as the 27th letter of the alphabet and was read as
"and". To make it clearer when reciting the alphabet, students were taught to
say "X, Y, Z and per se and" for X, Y, Z, &. (per se in this case meaning by
itself). Eventually "and per se and" became ampersand. :)

[[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampersand](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampersand)]

~~~
Navarr
There's even more fun history, in that & is a ligature of et. (Citation: same
wikipedia page)

~~~
adzm
While on the subject, this is why you may see et cetera abbreviated as etc and
&c. And if you think of the latter as "et c" you have a popular website Etsy
that sells et cetera.

~~~
voidz
Americans often say "ect" (spelled out †). As a Dutch person (when talking in
Dutch we say this as "etc" ( _eat tea sea_ ) or "et cetera") it is very hard
for me to not do the lord's work and correct them. And I guess it works if you
abbreviate it as __E __t __C __e __T __era.

† edited to add that it's spelled out

~~~
brennen
I'm pretty sure I have never encountered "ect" from any person of any
nationality.

~~~
tunesmith
I've heard people say "ek cetera" quite a bit.

~~~
filoeleven
I've always heard it pronounced incorrectly as "ek setra". And now I'm
wondering if it's unusual to pronounce the last word with all three syllables,
as I do...

------
ptaipale
Curiously, the article mentions Icelandic for æ, but not for ð or þ, which are
still on regular use in modern Icelandic, pretty much in the same Old English
meaning of dental fricatives (ð is voiced, þ is voiceless).

~~~
edblarney
The 'issue' is that English is not really it's own language :)

Or rather, it's a relatively modern language.

1000 years ago there would have been forms of Germanic, Scandinavian and
French being spoken - and 'English' developed as a mangle of those.

The proper French people I know do not consider English to even be a proper
language. :_

~~~
gjjrfcbugxbhf
And many English people are racist towards French people as well. Let's not
encourage either group...

~~~
edblarney
I don't think its racist for a French person to consider 'English' to not be a
language proper. The French lady who made the comment made her case remarkably
well.

------
adamnemecek
If this tickles your fancy, you should check out "Adventure of English" and
the eponymous BBC documentary.

[https://www.amazon.com/Adventure-English-Biography-
Language/...](https://www.amazon.com/Adventure-English-Biography-
Language/dp/1611450071/ref=as_li_ss_tl?sa-no-
redirect=1&linkCode=ll1&tag=akhn-20&linkId=751fd57f001259dfcc7bdd02c67406be)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihoYL-
dUK1g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihoYL-dUK1g)

Did you know that just about every English word that contains the letter
combination "sk" is from Old Norse? Skin, sky, ski, skill, skid, skull, skip,
skirt etc. Skim isn't though.

Until reading this book I never truly realized what sort of a Frankenlanguage
English really is.

~~~
kagamine
Half of those words make no sense in modern Norwegian. A run through of the
list and their approximate pronunciations in English would be:

Skin: _shin_ never heard this said, GooTranslate gives "full" but "full" is
"hel" in Norwegian

sky: _she_ meaning sky (the vast expanse above your head)

ski: _shee_ meaning ski like a plank of wood strapped to you foot for
travelling on snow.

skill: _sheeel_ to divide or separate. Bears no relation to English that I
know of.

skid: _sheed_ not a word I know in Norwgian

skull: _shool_ again, not a word I know in Norwegian, the word for skull is
'hode'

skip: _ship_ a thing that floats and is bigger than a boat.

skirt: _sheert_ not a word, but probably from skjørt meaning the same.

~~~
Symbiote
> Skin: shin never heard this said, GooTranslate gives "full" but "full" is
> "hel" in Norwegian

skinn in Norwegian, or skind in Danish.

> skill

Seems obsolete, I've only vaguely aware of this usage, and I'm a native
speaker:
[https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/skill#Etymology_1](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/skill#Etymology_1)

> skull

There's a skalli in Danish:
[https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/skalle](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/skalle)

~~~
kagamine
_skill_ is not obsolete and is heard in everyday speaking as in "å skille ut".

~~~
Symbiote
I meant it was obsolete in English.

------
aap_
There are a few points wrong in this article. First of all the <y> of <ye>
does not come from <ð> but from <þ>. Secondly in Old English the letters þ and
ð are used promiscuously, voicing has nothing to do with it. In other
languages this is different, but the article seems to be about english
specifically.

~~~
metafunctor
Seems like you know quite a bit about the subject. Would you care to enlighten
us with lesser knowledge about how <y> came from <ð> instead of <þ>?

The article says “ðe” became “ye” because of the voicing, but you say voicing
plays no part – so as an amateur linguist I'm already confused.

Was “the” originally spelled “þe” instead of “ðe”?

~~~
laumars
The reason why thorn (þ) became synonymous with <y> is because the character
evolved to look similar[1] so when the printing press was invented people used
the similar looking <y> character in place of the thorn.

So the whole <y> / <þ> relationship wasn't born from pronunciation but rather
technological innovation.

[1]
[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/EME_ye.s...](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/EME_ye.svg)

~~~
opk
It wasn't a case of the character evolving. It was more that thorn didn't
exist on printing presses imported from Germany where they had been invented
and y was chosen as a common substitute.

~~~
laumars
Both happened. I did already mentioned the printing press point but there's a
reason y was used specifically.

The thorn character originally looked more like the letter p but with time it
lost the loop at the top of the character and became more like the letter y.
(See [1] in my previous post for example)

------
gilgoomesh
I'm pretty sure that the "Y" in "Ye olde" is a thorn, not an eth:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorn_(letter)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorn_\(letter\))

since after the loss of wynn, the thorn was drawn to look like wynn (which is
basically an uppercase "Y" with the left ascender in line with the descender
and a loop on the right ascender).

If you're interested in discarded letters, this list has _12_ letters
(although the definition of "letter" is a little looser):

[http://mentalfloss.com/article/31904/12-letters-didnt-
make-a...](http://mentalfloss.com/article/31904/12-letters-didnt-make-
alphabet)

------
MayeulC
Not to forget the long S [0]. I got pretty confused with it the other day,
when reading a old French book (a Lavoisier memoir on diamond combustion). It
seems to have been quite popular in a variety of languages, giving the
(nowadays) German ß. While this is technically an "s", the way it was written
"ſ" can be confusing, as it is quite close to "f".

[0]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_s](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_s)

~~~
ben0x539
This is my favorite bit long-S trivia:
[https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=sun%2Cfun&year...](https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=sun%2Cfun&year_start=1600)

------
_petronius
I didn't know about the pronunciation of "ȝ", and the examples in the article
about the silent "gh" helps explain some modern German/English cognates:
"daughter/Tochter", "thought/gedacht", etc.

The northern dialect of Middle English that the Pearl poet wrote in ("The
Pearl", "Gwain and the Green Knight") makes use of this letter, much more so
than Chaucer's more southern English. It's actually possible to read Chaucer
with the help of some vocabulary tips -- the Pearl poet, at least in my
experience, is way harder.

~~~
maaarghk
yogh has some other, more subtle uses than the article mentions too -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalziel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalziel)

~~~
porges
Also why Menzies is pronounced "mingiz":
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menzies](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menzies)

~~~
amyjess
McKenzie was originally pronounced this way as well:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mackenzie_(surname)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mackenzie_\(surname\))

------
zeveb
Personally, I really wish þat we'd bring back 'þ' instead of 'th' (there's no
real need for 'ð', since originally one is a rune and one is a variation on a
Roman character, but if we wanted then we could use 'þ' for soft 'th' & ð for
hard 'th').

I'm not terribly keen on reſtoring 'ſ', ſince it really is eaſy to confuſe for
'f.'

Given our modern orthography, I don't see any real need for 'ȝ' & 'æ,' as much
as I like them both.

But honestly, 'þ' really ought to make a comeback.

~~~
amyjess
I just want to see the use of diaereses come back for words like coöperate and
reënter.

> I'm not terribly keen on reſtoring 'ſ', ſince it really is eaſy to confuſe
> for 'f.'

Depends on the font, really. It looks great in italics, especially when using
a font that gives it a descender... looks more like the integral symbol than
'f'. It irks me, though, when fonts give ſ a half-crossbar in the roman.
Fortunately, the monospace font I'm using when writing this reply doesn't do
that, and it also gives ſ a sharper curve at the top left, so ſ and f look
pretty distinct in it.

I want the ſt ligature to come back, though. It looks really slick.

~~~
dragonwriter
> It looks great in italics, especially when using a font that gives it a
> descender... looks more like the integral symbol than 'f'.

It looks like the integral symbol for much the same reason uppercase sigma
looks like the sum symbol.

------
pacaro
It's interesting that Welsh orthography has these sounds, but makes different
transliteration choices into the Latin alphabet.

For example, dd is used for eth (I once worked with a woman called "Dydd",
presumably short for Meredydd), and ll is used for yogh.

Some people will argue about the correct capitalization of 'ff' when used in
names like ffion.

My knowledge of welsh is limited to road signs and watching S4C whilst
inebriated. The contribution of a native speaker would be appreciated.

------
thomasfl
Æi løved this. Please write måre.

As a Norwegian citizen I really loved this. Would love to see a blog about
English words and names of places with Scandinavian origin. It goes for words
like "trim" and places with names ending with -by.

~~~
tyfon
Ask and you shall receive. Not quite a blog, men den får duge :)

[https://www.britishmuseum.org/whats_on/exhibitions/vikings/v...](https://www.britishmuseum.org/whats_on/exhibitions/vikings/vikings_live/old_norse_origins.aspx)

~~~
thomasfl
A database of hundreds names of places on the British islands with
Scandinavian origins. Thanks a lot / Jævlig bra. :-)

------
ascotan
I've been fascinated by this for years and years. I've known about thorn, but
I didn't know about eth and how thorn and eth are pronounced differently.

FTFY :)

"English hæs alƿays been a living languæge, changing and evolving wiþ use. But
before our modern alphabet was estæblished, ðe languæge used many more
charæcters ƿe’ve since removed from our 26-letter lineup. ðe six ðæt most
recently got axed are:"

~~~
porges
FYI: `languæge` and `charæcters` don’t make much sense—‘æ’ and ‘œ’ usually
changed to simple ‘e’ in modern English ( _Encyclopædia_ , _mediæval_ ),
unless at the start of a word ( _æsthetics_ ). There are variations, ‘œ’ seems
to have been more likely to change to ‘e’ at the start of a word ( _œsophagus_
, _œstrus_ ).

Also, not every ‘ae’ was an ‘æ’—‘aerial’ is one example. I think the test is
whether or not the Greek word used ‘αι’.

~~~
kwhitefoot
Are you trying to say that in modern English that œsophagus has become
esophagus?

If so then you need to qualify it as American English; British English still
uses oesophagus.

~~~
porges
Yeah, I originally qualified everything and then figured most readers of the
site are USian anyway ;)

------
beefsack
Those of us outside the US would still see some usages; "encyclopædea" in
particular isn't uncommon.

~~~
DonaldFisk
That's a ligature for the "ae" diphthong in Latin though, rather than the ash
character of Old English. There's also an "oe" diphthong, hence "oestrogen",
"foetus".

British usage usually preserves the "a" and "o" in those diphthongs.

~~~
fifnir
And Latin used ae "to transliterate the Greek diphthong αι (alpha iota)"
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%86](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%86))

Oe is also used in the same way I suppose, oestrogen for example comes from
οιστρογόνο so in this case oe is transliterating omicron iota.

Some more here:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_words_of_Greek_origin#...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_words_of_Greek_origin#Written_form_of_Greek_words_in_English)

I was actually a bit disappointed that she doesn't mention all this in the
article, "ae" is not aesthetical (another greek-derived word) ffs, it very
often maintains the historical orthography of the word which I feel is very
important.

------
memsom
Sadly, full of misinformation, half truths and bad conclusions.

~~~
wyclif
I wish a linguist would write an article like this, or a response to it

------
cr0sh
Not only do I find this fascinating, I also find it fascinating how many of us
here at HN find it fascinating (as witnessed by the number of comments and up-
votes).

I'm loving the discussion, too!

------
SixSigma
My copy of _An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations_
still has economics written as œconomics.

------
Cuuugi
I just appreciate that i learned something from someone named Poindexter.

------
caleblloyd
If we just had one more of these letters, Base 64 encoding wouldn't need the /
and would be URL friendly if you strip the trailing =. Dang.

------
talideon
Those interested in this might also be interested in the History of English
Podcast:
[http://historyofenglishpodcast.com/](http://historyofenglishpodcast.com/)

Recent episodes have got up to the Early Middle English period, which is when
the language's modern orthography began to take shape, including some of the
now lost letters of the alphabet.

------
user982
If only Q would follow them.

~~~
vorg
The letters C, Q, and X are redundant for representing sounds in English, but
_are_ used uniquely in Chinese pinyin, from which English might plausibly
import thousands of words in the very near future.

------
sjclemmy
If this floats your boat, can I recommend an excellent book by Michael Rosen
which combines whimsical prose with an interesting history of the english
alphabet.

[https://www.amazon.co.uk/Alphabetical-Every-Letter-Tells-
Sto...](https://www.amazon.co.uk/Alphabetical-Every-Letter-Tells-
Story/dp/1848548869)

------
OliverJones
From reading old records in the cellars of churches and libraries in New
England, I believe part of the progress of the writing of ð (eth) to y and
then to "th" involved writing the y as a superscript at the beginning of
words.

Any truth to this? Or was it just an oddball habit of New England scribes?

------
pdkl95
"Why Do We Have "Ye Olde"? Obsolete Letters, and the Mysteries of Ye Olde
Ming", by Tom Scott

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVWvkZbhgAc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVWvkZbhgAc)

------
rubyfan
Ugh, great now I'll never read "Ye Olde" the same way.

~~~
JacobAldridge
It's fun pronouncing it 'correctly' though. As if English really has a
"correctly" of course. And by fun I mean in a smug, self-satisfying way.

~~~
rubyfan
Yeah my New Years resolution is to stop being that guy that says "well
actually" followed by something smug. I'm certain I've broken this already.

------
wfunction
Well now I want to know when and why these disappeared!

~~~
adamnemecek
Probably the same way the kaiser stole the word "twenty".

------
peter303
When traveling in Iceland recently it is useful to learn eth and thorn because
they are all over the place

~~~
astrodust
Icelanders seem to find our "Ye" interpretation to be stupefying and amusing.

------
donquichotte
I want to offer the author my most enthusiastic contrafibularities for this
interesting ærticle.

------
white-flame
Did these letters have an ordering in the otherwise A-Z alphabet sequence of
today?

------
samirillian
interesting how much ȝ resembles the arabic "ghayn" غ, which is the same
sound.

------
peterburkimsher
So W won, and Wynn lost? FTW.

~~~
jacobush
Alas, not for the wynn, as it were...

------
jheriko
what about the long s?

