
Netgear Firmware Requires Online Registration - lgats
https://kb.netgear.com/000062364/GC108P-GC108PP-Firmware-Version-1-0-5-8
======
shock
I recently bought a couple of Netgear Managed Switches (for Business)⁰ and in
their datasheet they list "Local-only management" as a feature. Only after
they arrived we discovered that you only get limited functionality in the
Local-only management mode, you have to register the switches to your Netgear
Cloud account to get access to the full functionality.

Reading up on it, this was achieved only after a community outcry because in
the prior firmware versions the switch would have to connect to the Netgear
Cloud on every bootup.

Needless to say I would not have bought the swiches if I had knew I needed to
register them to Netgear Cloud to have access to the full functionality
specified in the data sheet. If I had bought them as a consumer, not as a
business, I would have returned them immediately.

Netgear are now on our purchasing blacklist.

⓪ - the switches are Netgear GS-108Tv3

~~~
jchw
I ran into a similar issue with a Linksys consumer router. Needless to say,
that was back in the box and to the retailer in a new york minute.

I ended up going with Ubiquiti equipment for now, since it was available
locally. Much more expensive and complicated but Linksys convinced me it was
worth any cost to get the hell away from them. But I will definitely be
looking into the Turris Omnia, pfSense devices, and maybe even reusing my
current Ubiquiti AP with OpenWRT, next time I need to muck with networking.

~~~
Hydraulix989
Doesn't Ubiquiti require online registration, too? It was the first thing I
had to do to set up my Unifi AP.

~~~
dkdk8283
Ubiquiti does not require registration by default but it does collect and
uploads data by default.

This is configuring the AP via CloudKey. Don’t know about other methods.

------
4cao
> You can login and access all features through the local browser UI 3 times
> without registering the switch through your netgear.com account.

How generous, for a device that people _buy_ (not rent) from them, and pay
actual money for (not receive for free).

And apparently Netgear didn't even feel the need to bother including any
contrived excuse as to why this is being introduced. What a time to be alive.

~~~
gogopuppygogo
All low end proprietary network gear is going managed by cloud. Ubiquiti on
the soho side and now consumer.

Open source is the only equipment you can trust to not adopt this model as
it’s much more profitable than shipping a box once every five years.

~~~
T3OU-736
I would posit that MikroTik is so far not doing this insanity, and price-wise
is not far off from NetGear.

~~~
Silhouette
Nor DrayTek, AFAIK. And those are _the_ two brands that I consistently see
recommended for SOHO network gear these days. They don't have the flashy UI of
something like Ubiquiti, so you do have to know what you're doing to set them
up, but they seem to make reliable hardware and solid firmware.

------
duxup
My new clothes washer has an app.

It requires access to location, and phone settings or the app closes by
design.

I don't think this stuff stops without legislation.

~~~
userbinator
Things like this are why I buy "dumb" equipment, which will remain obedient to
you and not the manufacturer. My white goods are all many decades old. Washer
and dryer are both entirely computer-free (mechanical controls) and don't even
contain a single semiconductor (unless you count the indicator bulbs I
replaced with LEDs.)

Many people often think the house/life of a software developer is filled with
"smart" things, and are astounded when they hear what I use. Maybe the younger
ones are indeed surrounding themselves with this sort of predatory "smartness"
and couldn't care less about the downsides, but not everyone in the industry
thinks that way; sadly, I think those who don't want this crap are a dying
breed.

~~~
ryandrake
Out of all the terrible trends in technology today, I’m convinced that
“unnecessary cloud-tethering” is the absolute worst. I should not need to sign
in and get permission from the device manufacturer to use or configure a
device or software I supposedly bought. I should not need you as an
intermediary when I’m using it. I should not need to give you analytics on how
I’m using it. You should not even know I’m using it! I don’t want an ongoing
relationship with your company. Our relationship ends when I swipe my credit
card.

It getting harder and harder to avoid this trash too. I fear it will be normal
one day.

~~~
Animats
_Out of all the terrible trends in technology today, I’m convinced that
“unnecessary cloud-tethering” is the absolute worst._

Yes. If not only because "cloud" services typically live for only a few years.
Then the device is useless.

------
the_biot
That switch is based on a Realtek RTL838x/RTL839x SoC. An effort is currently
underway to properly support these in openWRT and the mainline Linux kernel.
First patch in OpenWRT is in:

[https://git.openwrt.org/?p=openwrt/openwrt.git;a=commit;h=df...](https://git.openwrt.org/?p=openwrt/openwrt.git;a=commit;h=df8e6be59a1fbce3f8c6878fe7440a129b1245d6)

These SoCs are used in a _lot_ of consumer-level switches, so it's a target-
rich environment! We're populating a wiki to keep track of it all, feel free
to join in if you can help:

[https://biot.com/switches/](https://biot.com/switches/)

~~~
aojdwhsd
Nice! This is exciting as I own an early GS110TPv3. Would a very early
firmware image help you in any with this effort (v1.0.0.4)? My switch is
booted into a more recent firmware version now (7.x.x.x) but if I recall, the
cloud features were not present in 1.0.0.4.

~~~
the_biot
Not really, the firmware is what we aim to replace. But if you want your
device supported, you can pitch in. Post description/pics in the wiki, help
test code, etc.

------
ethanwillis
I was gonna buy a new DOCSIS 3.1 netgear modem for my gigabit service. Guess I
won't be doing that now. I'm tired of this type of bullshit.

It's exactly why I'm leaning really heavily towards Mikrotik for all of my
networking gear at home. These types of devices are user hostile, bad for the
environment, and set a precedent for a type of world we shouldn't want to live
in.

~~~
jeffbee
There's really no better choice than Arris SURFboard if you want a DOCSIS
bridge that just sits there and works all the time.

~~~
Yknotknow
LOL. NO.

Arris (formerly Motorola) modems have a overheating reliability issue.
Especially the Surfboard ones you like. SB6666

Go search online. You'll see.

I've had a number of them do this, and so I avoid their stuff.

~~~
jeffbee
Anecdotally my Arris SURFboard units have just sat in the dark and served
perfectly, except that I had to replace one to get higher DOCSIS speeds. Maybe
the overheating has something to do with local cable plant conditions from
which I don't suffer?

------
pineyboi
Razer has done something similar with their peripherals. I remember buying a
Razer keyboard that I later realized required an online account and some
Synapse software to configure in any meaningful way. Quickest return I ever
made. Razer's privacy policy is dicey and then there's this[0] which inspires
loads of confidence.

[0]: [https://www.pcmag.com/news/razer-accidentally-exposed-
custom...](https://www.pcmag.com/news/razer-accidentally-exposed-customer-
data-via-leaky-server)

~~~
manigandham
Razer Synapse has removed that requirement now, you can use local guest
account without registering.

~~~
distances
Such a relief really to use Linux, the hardware just works out of the box. Or
in theory could also be it doesn't work at all since there won't be
downloadable drivers, but in practice all my peripherals have worked great.

~~~
resfirestar
If you didn’t know, there are open source drivers for many Razer peripherals
that let you control things like colors and macros:
[https://openrazer.github.io/](https://openrazer.github.io/)

------
squarefoot
Landfills will welcome the load of Netgear hardware that cannot be sold as
used anymore, although perfectly working, because of this nonsense.

~~~
toxik
Which is exactly the intended effect. Non transferable -> more sales, they
reason. See also Microsoft and Sony’s latest console releases.

------
jlgaddis
(ITT: Plenty of comments from folks who clearly didn't bother to RTFA.)

This appears to be for one specific product, a "smart cloud switch" [0] (which
comes with a "1-Year Insight Subscription").

I don't see anything to indicate that the product registration requirement
applies to any of their other products.

~~~
d3nj4l
The firmware says you can't access the _local_ browser UI. Insight management
is for the online management UI. Even if you don't pay for insight, you should
be able to access your switch locally without needing Netgear's permission.

~~~
nobody9999
According the the relevant Netgear Knowledge Base article[0], config file
uploads and downloads are supported without registration.

I'd expect (I do not own one of these devices) that configuration without
restriction can be done by uploading a modified config file.

Perhaps someone who owns a NETGEAR Smart Managed Pro Switch could chime in to
confirm or refute that.

[0] [https://kb.netgear.com/000061174](https://kb.netgear.com/000061174)

------
Pxtl
I had a Nighthawk router of some persuasion that was so infuriatingly buggy it
took years off my life. A bad router is so maddening that the curse "may your
brakes work as well as your firmware" repeatedly came to mind.

Never again.

~~~
MrBuddyCasino
Which one? My R7000 works perfectly fine, since years.

~~~
Pxtl
That's the exact one, actually. It would constantly go into a sort of "soft
crash" mode where it would continue to run as a wifi router but with more
dropped packets and the web interface was inaccessible. It was a nightmare.

I assume I just got a dud, but what a dud. It was such a gradual downward
slide into being unusable that it was beyond warranty when I finally figured
out it was unsalvageable.

~~~
MrBuddyCasino
The worst kind of failure mode, hope you lit it on fire or something.

------
Supersaiyan_IV
Netgear doesn't even care that the "ReadySHARE" almost all their routers are
marketed with, is broken: [https://community.netgear.com/t5/Idea-Exchange-For-
Home/Read...](https://community.netgear.com/t5/Idea-Exchange-For-
Home/ReadySHARE-User-Credentials/idi-p/1855163)

Why would I ever want to enable SMB 1.0 (security issues, deprecated) on my
R8000. And even then, shares require admin credentials.

IMO this is refund material.

~~~
MaxBarraclough
> IMO this is refund material.

It's also the kind of thing EU regulators pick up on.

------
InitEnabler
Just another reason why I hate Netgear products. Had a wireless G card that
worked perfectly fine with XP and when Vista came put it had no driver support
even though it was product that wasn't discontinued.

~~~
Pxtl
I think I had the same one. Seriously, it feels like networking hardware is
the armpit of the industry. A place where "approximately functional as long as
you reboot it weekly and don't use any of its advertised features" appears to
be considered good enough by their QA.

------
cyansmoker
LOL @bug fixes:

"Default IP route configuration disappears after reset"

Literally the device's bread and butter and it fails that. Not sure I care
about its management interface after reading that.

------
Sosowski
Recently I found an old TP-Link wall-plug WiFi extender which defaults to a
.com domain name for configuration.

All is fine when you don't have internet access, but once you configured it,
you'll find out that TP-Link lost access to the config-bound domain and now
it's a website full of malware and the config keeps redirecting you there.

And they're still selling these (hopefully with updated firmware)

~~~
robotnikman
wow, thats kinda horrifying. I wonder how they even let that slip

------
greatgib
Soon you will not be able to use a switch on a private network not connected
to the internet thanks to these assholes...

No more Netgear device for me!

~~~
hinkley
I wonder how hard it is to build your own switch these days? Maybe something
built around a Pi class SBC?

~~~
nicolaslem
If you don't care about performance, any computer can bridge multiple
interfaces in software and behave like a switch.

~~~
hinkley
15 years ago all of the better switches could internally handle the aggregate
bandwidth of all of their ports. I assumed that would be standard now, but
shopping for a switch recently I discovered I was wrong. We still have
switches where you can’t max out all ports at the same time.

I think you could still make one that doesn’t have that problem, but the
memory would limit doing much smart switch work. If any.

------
yaris
I wonder what could serve as the replacement for Netgear switches. I have a
couple GS108s at home and thought to buy a couple more. After such news I
don’t want to even come close to NG, but from possible alternatives I’m
familiar only with Linksys which are not an option really. What are other
brands to consider?

~~~
iforgotpassword
I've got a managed Zyxel switch at home. Not exactly a challenging setup, 4
vlans and that's it, but apart from a known firmware bug with multicast when I
first bought it, with an update already available, there have been no issues
at all. Would buy again.

------
anfilt
This is insanity. Stuff like this just seems to get worse every year smh.

------
lilSebastian
In the market for a new home router. Keen to avoid such stupidity. Can anyone
recommend a modern, powerful router that supports dd/openwrt?

~~~
vimalbhalodia
GL.inet is a brand I've been a fan of for a while: [https://www.gl-
inet.com/](https://www.gl-inet.com/)

They have a range of personal/SOHO routers that all run officially-supported-
by-manufacturer OpenWRT, and their own UI skin isn't bad (though easy to
switch to LuCI if you want)

Reading through their support forums is what sold me on them - their firmware
engineers actually pay attention to issues, engage in threads, and respond
with patched firmwares.

~~~
internalfx
This looks like the manufacturer I've been looking for, bookmarked for future
purchases.

------
barbs
Can anyone recommend a good router that's good for putting openWRT on and
isn't so user-hostile?

------
hinkley
When I first encountered netgear hardware, it ran far hotter than any other
equipment. When I had a five port switch that was so hot I could nearly burn
myself touching it, I stopped buying their gear.

Are they still the laggard in this respect, or have they gotten better?

------
SMAAART
in related news Cottonelle and Quilted Northern now require registration
before use.

Charmin declined to comment.

------
rektide
Wow jeeze. This is such a different & bad look from the netgear I know. This
is hard to see.

Netgear has been one of the main companies to go to if you care about using
your hardware. They have had a spirited MyOpenRouter community[1] for their
systems, with great firmwares & flexibile package-add-ons developed with
assistance from their solid-gold readily-reproduceable GPL releases[2].

I just had a somewhat overlong thread about Broadcom chipset routers having
headed towards being impervious & useless, resistant to any experimentation, &
bereft of open source firmwares[3], & a general trend in wifi of routers
getting less & less general purpose & user-centric hardware, under
increasingly consumeristic teiring[3]. While hardware alternatives vanish.
This news doesn't mean Netgear is going to go totally darkside & cut off the
amazing innovation they've let grow under them, but it sure is frightening
that it could be part of that wider scary course into darkness & ignorance
that wifi seems to be heading down.

Own the means of production. Own the means of communication. Do not stop
short, do not accept less.

[1] [https://www.myopenrouter.com/forum](https://www.myopenrouter.com/forum)

[2] [https://kb.netgear.com/2649/NETGEAR-Open-Source-Code-for-
Pro...](https://kb.netgear.com/2649/NETGEAR-Open-Source-Code-for-Programmers-
GPL)

[3]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24521265](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24521265)

Edit: hopefully much ado about nothing; seems this change only applies to
their cloud ️ services

> It appears the registration is only required for "cloud" features managed
> through Netgear's subscription service.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24530009](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24530009)

~~~
d3nj4l
From the article:

> product registration is required to unlock full access to the _local browser
> UI_.

Emphasis mine.

------
aojdwhsd
I can upload the firmware image v1.0.0.4 from my GS110TPv3 dated 2018-10-04 if
anyone is interested... I don't think the cloud features were enabled on this
one.

~~~
shock
Yes, please.

------
supernova87a
Maybe if the US wants to get serious (or at least effective) about security,
we need ridiculousness like this to be regulated/outlawed.

------
nuker
I'd recommend OPNSense and miniPC with a few LAN ports from aliexpress for
both, home and SME.

------
stjohnswarts
thanks for the heads up. I guess it's tp-link for cheap wifi routers then

~~~
ziml77
Fortunately this does appear to be specific to managed switches which are sold
as having cloud management functionality. I don't think you have to worry
about their normal routers having this restriction.

------
zakki
Why no backlash for iOS and Android? We have to register to use the devices.

~~~
m463
I believe you no longer have to register your ios device - but it is a dark
pattern. On the screen to enter your apple id, you don't have a "skip" choice,
you have to say "don't have one" and I believe then you can skip setting up an
apple id.

You can use it like a phone at that point - you can send text messages and
make calls, but I don't believe you can install any apps.

That said - you must go online - turn on cellular data or wifi before you can
use the phone, it must be "activated". And apple phones home a _lot_.

~~~
Silhouette
_And apple phones home a lot._

I see this sort of claim often, but reliable information about the specifics
is hard to come by. Can you share any?

~~~
m463
On a mac run little snitch. On a current ios iphone, I'm uncertain but i run
an older version of ios with adblockios.

It contacts a whole slew of apple and 3rd party sites. the main one is that it
contacts *.ls.apple.com all the time (location services) even with location
services turned off. lots of other apple sites. third party is akamai all the
time, but also sites like phicdn.net and att.net (I have an at&t iphone). I do
not have any at&t app installed.

on macos catalina, you can (currently still) run little snitch and all kinds
of services start contacting apple. and new ones have shown up like touristd
and rapportd. Every time you try to pull up a help page. Every account you
configure, apple based or not. sigh.

~~~
Silhouette
I wonder whether the ls.apple.com servers are connected with security features
like "Find my iPhone". But then, I'm not sure exactly what Find my iPhone does
if it's turned on but location services are disabled.

------
60Vhipx7b4JL
I'm an embedded systems student and this makes me sad and angry.

I worked with software update mechanisms and they are an essential part of
every IoT product. They are needed to supply the product with security updates
and consumers should be trained to allow for automatic updates as maintaining
20 devices is not something your average user will do manually. Or at least to
install updates when they come along.

This just fucks the consumer as it includes a massive inconvenience. What's
going to happen? They won't install the update as they don't want shit forced
down their throat. But the bad taste stays, and instead of installing a risky
update on other devices or investing the time researching, the consumers will
just keep them at the current software state.

Thanks Netgear for fucking a whole industry.

------
usr1106
Is that device sold in the EU? What about GDPR? Well, it seems to be a switch
and private households are less likely to run a switch. But still some people
might. So will the device still work after you ask them to delete your data?

For a company on the other hand you might want to have secure systems not
connected to the Internet at any time.

------
nokya
Reminds me of years ago, when Microsoft started forcing players to be online
when playing on xbox...which was minutes before I decided I would never need
an xbox :)

~~~
gruez
didn't they backpeddle on that? [https://www.cnet.com/news/microsoft-
pulls-a-180-reverses-xbo...](https://www.cnet.com/news/microsoft-
pulls-a-180-reverses-xbox-one-always-on-drm-and-used-games-policy/)

~~~
bigiain
Even if they did, deciding to do it in the first place tells you something
important about them. For some people, that said "do not ever trust these evil
fuckers, they'll sell you out whenever they can do so without too much public
backlash..." This it the tech industry version of politicians dropping bad
news as 4:59pm on a Friday.

------
ThomasMidgley
This mentioned product is marked as "GC108P — Insight Managed 8-port Gigabit
Ethernet PoE+ Smart Cloud Switch with FlexPoE Power".

So, what is the problem? You got, what you payed for. ;-)

If you want to have a product with local management, then buy another one
without "Insight" capabilities, e.g. one of the "Standalone Smart managed Pro"
line:

[https://www.netgear.com/business/products/switches/smart/sta...](https://www.netgear.com/business/products/switches/smart/standalone-
smart-switch.aspx#tab-models)

------
Zak
It appears the registration is only required for "cloud" features managed
through Netgear's subscription service. Here's what's possible without the
cloud service:

[https://kb.netgear.com/000061174/What-features-of-my-
NETGEAR...](https://kb.netgear.com/000061174/What-features-of-my-NETGEAR-
Smart-Managed-Pro-Switch-can-I-access-without-registering)

And here are the features of the cloud service:

[https://kb.netgear.com/000044342/What-can-I-do-with-
Insight](https://kb.netgear.com/000044342/What-can-I-do-with-Insight)

~~~
ronnier
It's not true. If you want to use all the features on my POE Netgear switch,
you have to online register and use a code to unlock full access to local
mode.

There's no cloud features involved. You have to register online just to use
all the features of the switch locally.

