
Fatal silence: Why do so many fortysomething men kill themselves? - sjcsjc
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-32231774
======
yason
Maybe it's because by the age of forty you've probably run out of the steam
that comes free, mostly from the external expectations of what you should do.

It's easy to finish school, go study something, then get a job, get a better
job, start a family, have kids and pay for the bills because you don't really
have to think much about what do you want from your life. Where did you come
from? Why are you here? What are you to do here? What's your call in life? But
the crisis that happens roughly at midlife brings those questions to the
surface: "Is this all to it? What is going on and where am I in it?"

Men are not necessarily as socially integrated as women. Going through the big
questions alone is something a lot of people simply don't survive. They are
likely to lose their momentum in life, often get depressed, and at the extreme
end some even kill themselves because too many old things turn out to be
meaningless. Some become workaholics or develop a way to escape the emptiness
and recreate purpose artificially. But a lot of men just lose the momentum, or
a significant part of it. In contrast, more women talk to other women or
therapists or relatives about what they're going through. In the average, it
looks like that women seem to get energized in midlife whereas men seem to
lose power.

It then depends on the man himself whether he's the kind who will eventually
emerge and see his vision for life more clearly than before or who will lose
his sight for life more or less permanently. Social circles with positive
examples of what men can, at the best, grow into in their 40's and 50's could
make a big difference but there aren't many of those these days.

~~~
toyg
> In the average, it looks like that women seem to get energized in midlife
> whereas men seem to lose power.

Could this be natural, in a way? Women have always had to look after the
wellbeing and social standing of their offspring, because their own survival
derived from them more often than not. By 40, they either have teen-aged kids
in their formative years, or they're grandmothers; in both cases, they must be
at full steam. This has not changed much in modern times, if anything it's
become easier to deal with (they are not going to starve if their children
don't work on the farm).

Men have a different set of "natural" expectations. Fighters by 40 were either
dead or veterans with respected social status; agricultural workers would be
phasing out, with children taking over some of their duties. This is very
different now: a lot of men at 40 have average jobs that will expect the same
level of performance day-in day-out, no "phasing out" allowed (especially in
tight economic times) and no real social status either. It's easy to feel
dejected when looking back.

------
adventured
The average age at which a man goes through his first divorce is about 36. [1]

Here's the cocktail:

1) By 40 you've gotten divorced, and probably have a split family. Those post
divorce years can be incredibly difficult for everyone.

2) Life hasn't worked out as you hoped, and your youth is mostly behind you.
If you happen to lose a career at this juncture, it can be difficult to regain
your footing due to routine age bias.

3) You're unwilling to reach out for help, seek therapy or take drugs to deal
with depression. By about 40 your body is also changing, this can compound all
the other effects.

4) You kill yourself out of desperation, fear, loneliness, etc.

[http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2013/article/marriage-and-
divorc...](http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2013/article/marriage-and-divorce-
patterns-by-gender-race-and-educational-attainment.htm)

~~~
iSnow
Add to that that men are incredibly competitive - in the workplace, in sports,
concerning women. At the age of 40, you either made it or know a lot of other
guys who did and start to realize you won't be part of them.

And of course, a lot of men have as much a skewed image of their success in
life as women have concerning their looks. So even moderately successful types
get depressed or kill themselves because they see themselves as losers.

------
netcan
As a young man (maybe it's similar for women, but I suspect there is are some
differences here) thinking about your life and its possibilities is usually
about the environment.

I thought of my own "hard abilities" like talent in math or sports as a fixed
thing or more precisely a sort of talent effort equation. I though of the
environment (if I get this opportunity) as the determining wildcard. I thought
of my own courage, ingenuity and strength of character as inexhaustible wells.
If success hinges on _my_ determination and strength of character, success is
guaranteed. Just give me the chance. I'll take it from there.

Reality is less rosy. There is a reason we admire (or detest) those with
genuinely powerful strength of character. It's rare and valuable.

At 40 (or earlier, later, I dunno exactly) your own part becomes more clear.
Your failings are big. They're behind you and ahead of you. You can see them
and their causes. What you haven't achieved and your role in it is clear. What
you won't achieve and your inevitable role in that becomes clearer.

Failure (again, I think it's relevant that my own experience is as a man), is
heartbreaking for a man. It hits us at our core. It shatters our illusions and
strips us of what we allow ourselves to think we are.

It's hard being a person. It hurts being a person. It's heartbreaking. It's
painful. It really is so much more than we can take, to feel all the pain in
earnest.

~~~
RobertoG
Not that I disagree with what you say but I wanted to bring attention to other
thing. We are really bad at telling what the reasons of our feeling are. For
instance, you could feel bad; believe that is due to your “failings” or your
life. Then, you take a weekend in the woods and you feel that nothing is
wrong.

My point is that many times we are not aware what is it that makes us feel bad
and we just build a narrative that could or couldn’t have anything to do with
our feelings. A good advice is, I think, when feeling bad; try to change how
you spend your time and you can be surprised. Don’t trust too much in
introspection.

~~~
netcan
A absolutely agree and that is an important point.

There's some interesting discussion going on about antidepressants, which is
somewhat similar to discussions about add medication for kids. 2 points: (1)
Psychiatric diagnosis is often like the BMI, true at a population level but
not necessarily true at a personal level. (2) Pathological is relative to the
environment to need to live in. If school requires an 8 year old to pay
attention in a class with forty 8 year olds for seven hours a day, inability
to do so is often the trigger for medication.

With depression, I think it's uncontroversial the environments can play a
large role. If the first course of treatment was living better, and medicinal
treatment was layered on top of that as needed we would have better results
with fewer side effects. OTOH, there are limits to what a doctor can do.

My earlier comment is more about 'why 40 year old men' not 'why depression.'
The latter is almost certainly the more important and actionable question
though.

~~~
RobertoG
Just wanted to point that, maybe, the source of the problems are commonalities
to the “40 years old lifestyle” instead of more philosophic reasons. If we
mistrust introspection then investigating that could pay well.

------
LBarret
I am 40 this year, and while I don't want to kill myself, I understand the
feeling of having failed. It is even stronger (IMHO) if you work in start-
up/tech because you're either millionaire or... obsolete.

Finding inner peace is important for anybody, but even more critical at 40.

~~~
toyg
I'm 36 and I know what you mean, but I think this "success" stuff is the male
equivalent of "being beautiful": something that society relentlessly pushes on
us, which we should probably reject from first principles.

~~~
noir_lord
I'm 35 and I couldn't give a flying balls about success or what society wants
(never really have).

Life is literally too short to care.

------
hoodoof
Because if life isn't working out in the way you expected, it starts to become
apparent in your 40's.

~~~
hising
So how do you explain the difference between male and female? Women has lower
expectations of life or they hit their expectations better than men in
general?

~~~
brc
I think they hit their expectations more often.

Lots of women develop goals of having a family, a decent husband and stability
in their life. Not all, obviously, but it is a common enough set of goals.
Lots of women achieve these goals and gain a state of relative happiness.

Lots of men develop goals of things like sporting prowess, business success
and material wealth. These things are much less common to achieve than a
decent family life.

I think underlying it all is the fact that men are also generally more capable
of violent acts, probably including towards themselves.

~~~
pervycreeper
>men are also generally more capable of violent acts

Do you have a citation for that claim?

Also, what distinguishes a "violent" method of killing oneself from a
"nonviolent" one?

~~~
brc
Seriously? How about every war ever started since the beginning of history? Is
that enough citation?

A violent method of killing is shooting, hanging, etc. A non violent one is
sleeping pills or gassing.

------
stuff4ben
As a 40 year old man myself, I've felt the growing ageism in the tech industry
since I turned 30. This even here in laid back RTP, NC. I'd imagine it's worse
off in the startupy world in Silicon Valley. Every man is different, but I
think for me it's a matter of not being able to provide the lifestyle I want
to provide for my wife and kids. The movie RV
([http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0449089/](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0449089/))
is quite relevant too.

As a former software developer who is now being forced into a powerpoint
developer role but is not quite a manager, what can be done?

~~~
mpdehaan2
I live in RTP and don't find the ageism thing to be too notable, but I do note
that companies do like to hire people like themselves at times, and this is
the one thing that happens in an interview that nobody talks about - what
really is "cultural fit". Though, often, that's not hiring the guy that has
been burned out by 40 years at IBM - not because he's old, but because that
place can eat your soul out. Younger employees want to feel like they'll be
able to make decisions too.

Computer Science seems prone to this because it's such a weird mix of creative
and also deeply technical, it almost seems to make it a harder field to work
in sometimes, because both instincts can't usually be expressed well in group
contexts.

As for the perception of why ageism may exist, newer folks want to replace
technology quicker, and don't have as much historical memory, so if anything,
I think the challenge is to keep replacing things you are working on, and not
specialize too much.

I think this will also get easier as the big wave of new C.S. folks get older
themselves, but I built my last company with most of everyone in their 30s and
early 40s.

Might vary based on what sort of companies.v Startups seem more prone to it to
me, but my startup was pretty well spread out. More established companies are
less likely to be that way.

~~~
wlesieutre
RTP?

~~~
crazy_geek
Research Triangle Park, North Carolina, USA I presume. If you're not in the
know, it's another tech center in the US

~~~
wlesieutre
Ah, I'm aware of the research triangle, but "RTP" is new for me. Thanks!

------
scrrr
Someone said there's less suicides during times of economic depression,
because then there's a generally accepted reason for failure. In times of
success, there isn't and so it must be our fault.

The more we believe that success of life is based on merit, the more
disappointment will occur.

~~~
DanBC
> Someone said there's less suicides during times of economic depression,

They were wrong. There are more suicides (at least, in England) during
recession.

~~~
benpbenp
Well, and I don't think this is a nitpick, a recession is not the same as a
depression. It would be good to get the original source for both of these
facts to compare. Perhaps during recession, the number of "failures" is not
increased quite enough to create the "generally accepted reason for failure"
you might find in a depression.

~~~
ptaipale
At least in Finland, there was a decrease in suicide rates in 1940-1945 (war)
and the more recent downward trend started from 1990 (beginning of very strong
5-year recession).

After the war and immediate reconstruction, the suicide rates predominantly
climbed up from 1950 to 1990.

[http://tilastokeskus.fi/til/ksyyt/2010/ksyyt_2010_2011-12-16...](http://tilastokeskus.fi/til/ksyyt/2010/ksyyt_2010_2011-12-16_kat_006_fi_001.gif)

------
father_of_two
Not being an expert on the subject, I think the trend is to have a progressive
increase rate in suicides along the age. I don't know where this 40s figure
comes from.

[http://goo.gl/j7pOgc](http://goo.gl/j7pOgc) \-- this is a study about suicide
in Portugal and Spain. If you look at "Figura 13" (suicide by age on men) and
"Figura 14" (suicide by age for women), that pattern is clear (they even
explicitly mention it on the text as a classical pattern).

Eurostats data ( [http://goo.gl/UyTqtE](http://goo.gl/UyTqtE) ) features a
similar pattern, although it seems they lack a few age groups!

------
lawlessone
Couldn't it be hormonal? doesn't testosterone drop as we age?

~~~
adventured
Testosterone usually peaks close to 40 (plus or minus five years), and falls
_roughly_ 10% every decade thereafter.

~~~
marvin
Testosterone actually peaks around age 20 and gradually declines after that,
accelerating around age 30. By 40, it's been falling for a long time.

~~~
adventured
I'm finding vast disagreement over whether testosterone peaks at 20 or closer
to 40. Can you provide some good sources?

Some sources show it declining drastically from 20 to 40 (by as much as 90%),
others claim it peaks between 35-40 and gradually declines. It seems to be all
over the map.

For example:

"Studies show that most men experience a 2% drop-off in testosterone
production each year after they turn 30."

[http://www.askmen.com/daily/austin_150/155_fashion_style.htm...](http://www.askmen.com/daily/austin_150/155_fashion_style.html)

"Testosterone Does Not Necessarily Wane With Age"

[http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/247013.php](http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/247013.php)

"Testosterone levels peak in the mid-20s for both men and women. For women,
who have about 1/10 to 1/20 the amount of testosterone that men have,
testosterone levels taper off slowly until they plateau around the age of 45.
For men, testosterone levels continue to wane into their 70s. By the time
women reach menopause, their testosterone levels are about half of what they
were in their 20s. Men's testosterone levels decrease by about 1% per year and
then drop faster as they approach older age."

[http://articles.latimes.com/2011/may/02/health/la-he-
midlife...](http://articles.latimes.com/2011/may/02/health/la-he-midlife-
libido-20110502)

~~~
atom-morgan
I don't have sources on hand but I recently had my testosterone levels checked
at a TRT office and they seemed to agree it's highest in your 20s and
decreases after that. It was why they were so surprised to have me (24)
getting my testosterone levels checked. Most of their clientele are men in
their 30-40s+.

------
DanBC
The Campaign Against Living Miserably is a Liverpool charity doing some
interesting work in this area. They use language differently in an attempt to
get a message to men. "I am a man. I refuse to be a man down." is a campaign
about the 12 men who die to suicide each day in England.

There are some things that correlate with deaths by suicide. When the number
of people without work rises the number of deaths by suicide increases.

I've been doing some voluntary work around suicide reduction. Some of this is
cheap but effective. We get multistorey buildings that have public access (eg
car parks) to install signs with phone numbers of suicide prevention
charities.

Funding of mental health treatment in England has always been low. "Parity of
esteem" is aiming to change that. Eventually the wait times for non urgent MH
treatment should be similar to non urgent physical health. (So, a maximum 18
week wait between first appointment and start of treatment). A recent change
in law (dec 2014) means that people with non-urgent[1] needs get some choice
in where they're treated.

Every local authority in England is supposed to have a suicide prevention
strategy, and that's supposed to be informed by the national suicide
prevention strategy. So, hosted by Public Health (who are in tirn hosted by
county councils) and working with clinical commissioning groups, criminal
justice (a shocking number of prisoners die by suicide), the police, drug and
alcohol services, mental health services, etc.

Some regions are takig ideas from the learnig disability community. For
example: many regions have a "learning disability health and well being
partnership"; a few regions have started a "mental health and well being
partnership".

I do a bit of work around suicide prevention and I am keen to hear people's
ideas around suicide prevention. Please do feel free to email me.

[1] there are a few criteria around who can chose and when they can chose but
it's a lot better now. [http://www.england.nhs.uk/ourwork/qual-clin-
lead/pe/bp/guida...](http://www.england.nhs.uk/ourwork/qual-clin-
lead/pe/bp/guidance/)

Campaign against living miserably
[https://www.thecalmzone.net/](https://www.thecalmzone.net/)

The old strategy for my region (I had no involvement with this. I'm working on
the replacement).
[http://www.gscb.org.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=62552&p=0](http://www.gscb.org.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=62552&p=0)

The national strategy: [https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/suicide-
preventio...](https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/suicide-prevention-
strategy-launched)

------
ddmf
Article posted on my 40th birthday :O

~~~
icpmacdo
Happy birthday buddy :)

~~~
ddmf
Thank you :)

------
rgrieselhuber
I've had this happen to a couple friends. It seems to fit a common pattern
and, as such, has a solution but I'm not going to talk about it online. Be
open to breaking all the rules and rejecting everything you're told about how
you should be.

------
danieltillett
As a fourtysomething man the reason is one of intent. I have no desire to kill
myself, but I do know that if I chose suicide I would die.

~~~
adam74
So why does a fortysomething man have more intent?

~~~
danieltillett
They don't as such, but when they set out to die they manage to so. This is
not a good outcome.

~~~
coldtea
So the reason is not one of "intent", but of "effectiveness".

~~~
danieltillett
Well if I intend to do something then I do. I guess you could say I have
learned to be effective with age.

------
tobiasu
Why do people suddenly care for others when they had enough of this shitty
space rock? You gave no shits the last three decades. Given the rabbit-like
pest that we are - why should you?

I want to end my life where and whenever it suits me. Hypocrites please stay
away.

~~~
kstenerud
Because people DO care, but they generally don't show it much. Often it takes
a shock like this for them to realize how much they actually do care.

It's easy to fall into the thought trap of "nobody cares", followed by
"because there's no reason for them to care", to "because I'm / they're
worthless", to "Nothing but parasites", to "We should all just go extinct."

We are all social beings, and deficiencies in social interaction can and do
affect our psyche in very dramatic ways.

~~~
ohnomrbill
I would argue that if someone requires a shock to act like they care, then
they are probably overestimating the amount they care. I don't say this to be
a dick, but rather to point out that this particular argument sounds very
hollow to a suicidal person. It's better not to use it. If the suicidal person
is holding on because they believe that other people (mom, dad, etc.) care
about them, this can make that caring seem trivial enough to stop considering.

