
Life in a Studio Apartment with My Wife and Two Sons - dohertyjf
http://www.gregkroleski.com/2015/11/03/life-in-a-studio-apartment-with-my-wife-and-two-sons/
======
SmallBets
It's interesting that most reactions here are either a)"this is nothing
compared to country x" or b)this is an example of extremely negative hardship.

I thought the direct lessons he laid out were excellent, about being
ruthlessly honest on what you truly need to be happy, and the freedom that you
get from the resulting wealth when combining that with a SF tech salary.

It is a reasoning from first principles on living conditions that not enough
people do imo. I think we tend to subconsciously accept the default of more
space/stuff=better without making a direct choice on what is the specific
right amount for ourselves. Coming to a definition of what "enough" is for
ourselves keeps the goalposts from moving as income rises.

Also the point about gaining empathy for the poor based on experiencing a
lower margin for error and high cost when things went wrong in this lifestyle
was another good observation.

------
Harkins
For anyone wondering how this is possible: by violating fire code. He says he,
then he and his wife, then one or both of their children were sleeping in the
closet. I'm not familiar with the language of the California Building Code,
but in the 2014 verison, volume 1, chapter 10 gets into the limits. The closet
is not a "sleeping unit": it doesn't meet the 120 sqft minimum, doesn't have a
wide enough door, and doesn't have two methods of egress. There's probably
more I didn't find.

I know this seems like tedious legal nitpicking and the main apartment room is
_right there_ and "everybody does it", but nearly every line of fire and
building code exists because of a preventable tragedy. Even if it's not
against the lease it's unsafe. (And he built a barely-braced lofted bed in an
earthquake zone!?)

The author happily compounded the rent they saved every month but failed to
compound the increased risks they took every night.

~~~
panic
Are fire codes really enforced in this way? Obviously the closet wasn't built
to sleep in. It's one thing to force building owners and landlords to build
and maintain rooms a certain way, but using a law to force people not to sleep
in a closet seems counterproductive.

~~~
ars
Oh definitely. Especially for rentals.

To be a bedroom it has to have a window, a certain size (which varies), and
some places even require a closet in the room.

If they find a bed in a room like that they normally start with a warning,
then a visit from child protection services, or even condemning the entire
house.

Obviously if they don't inspect they'll never know, but rentals, and people
with contact with authority (CPS, Police, etc) could expect an inspection.

If you own, I'm not sure if the fire department can legally enter a home for
an inspection without a warrant, but for a rental I believe they can, and do!

~~~
guard-of-terra
I always wonder why child "protection" services feel the need to harrass
middle class families running a little low, when they could go to ghetto and
have an unlimited supply of totally ruined families to have fun with. Multi-
generation alchohol and drug abuse and all that stuff available in numbers.

Stop harrassing us until you solved them. Bye.

~~~
01Michael10
What nonsense did I just read? Child protection services are mostly operating
in the "ghetto". They go where the complaints are...

Are you really saying people with some money should be able to bend the law
but not poor people?

------
stevoski
The more I read such articles, the more I think you'd have to be nuts to
choose to live in San Francisco.

And yet, clearly, plenty of people do choose to live in San Francisco.

~~~
sotojuan
As someone who does not want to live there either, I can see why people move
there.

It's simply where the most opportunities are. The idea is to move there and
live uncomfortably until you network your way to an awesome, high paying job.

Alternatively, the tech companies there usually do more interesting stuff than
in other area. Here in NYC most are related to advertising or media—stuff not
easy to get exited about. San Francisco has its large share of silly ideas for
companies, but it also has many that do interesting stuff.

~~~
codingdave
It is absolutely not where the most opportunities are. It is the place where
the most startups are, which means the top of the opportunity pile eclipses
other locations in terms of earning potential and networking. But
quantitatively, the most programming jobs per capita are in Washington,
Colorado, and Utah.

~~~
mahyarm
The more interesting companies are in the bay area I find personally. In
Seattle you have amazon, which has a horrible reputation, and Microsoft, which
has another kind of bad reputation, but is better than amazon. In the SFBA,
you have facebook, apple, google, and many many others.

Also I don't find jobs / people in the state the most accurate indicator. To
someone living in LA, moving to SF might as well be moving to Utah. The open
positions / qualified people is the far more useful metric, and SF will still
beat all of them on that.

~~~
maherbeg
That's actually wrong. Facebook, Twitter, Apple and Google all have some of
their largest engineering satellites in Seattle.

~~~
dgoldstein0
True. But sometimes being in a satellite office just isn't the same as being
at HQ.

------
davidf18
There are Orthodox Jewish families in Israel which have very few rooms for
very large families. (Among the ultra-Orthodox in Israel the fertility rate is
10 children per family). Often these families have very little income which
includes state support for their large families, and esp in large cities such
as Jerusalem can little afford larger accommodations.

In SF, NYC (where I live) and other US localities, the issue is not family
income but rather is the use of politics to limit zoning density and thus
artificially creating housing scarcity.

Thus, renters pay more than they otherwise would with an efficient market and
billionaire land-owners have much greater wealth than they would in an
efficient market.

In NYC, we had a somewhat similar situation with Taxis. Medallions were
artificially limited to 13,000 in this city of 8 million where many people do
not own cars and use mass transit and taxis. As a result of this 13,000 limit,
taxi medallions had a market value of $1.2 million.

Then thankfully, Uber came along, thus creating a larger supply of hail-able
taxis and the taxis medallions now have a market value of $700,000 or so and
some taxis are no longer in use.

In NYC, our current mayor has two properties that he rents out for a total of
$120,000 per year. He is able to get this high rent because of city laws that
limit zoning density. Thus, he has every incentive to want to artificially
limit zoning densities.

Thus, while many liberals fret over income-inequality, they still support
zoning regulations in cities such as SF and NYC that amount to a transfer of
wealth from lower income individuals to wealthy individuals.

~~~
ars
> Among the ultra-Orthodox in Israel the fertility rate is 10 children per
> family

There are not typically 10 children at once in the home BTW. The older
children will be away at school, around 14 for boys, 17 for girls.

What you do is have 3 bedrooms: parents, boys, and girls. Depending on the
boy/girl ratio you can have up to 2 triple-bunk-beds in a room.

Doing that you can easily sleep 12 children in the house (if you had to).

There is no living room, instead there is a dining room with a huge table
(large enough to seat everyone at once) that doubles as a multi-purpose room
for homework, and other activities.

Children are encouraged to play outside (there's hardly room inside).

For possessions there is not usually a need to store much since you'll pass
things on to other people, your children, relatives, friends, neighbors, etc.
and they with you, so most items are in active use. (For example, once the
kids are older and you don't need a triple-bunk-bed you pass it on to someone
else.)

This also means you don't need to spend as much as you might expect on stuff.
If you don't have a lot of money you can go your entire life without once
buying new clothes, or other gear for the kids.

~~~
Tycho
This was pretty normal 50 years ago in the UK.

------
tinbad
Growing up in communist Russia, 400sq. feet apartment would be the luxury
option for 2 or 3 families with multiple children each. No joke, my parents
lived with their siblings and parents (and sometimes grandparents) in the same
apartment even after everyone had children of their own. Somehow we still
managed to occasionally have 20 more people over for birthday celebrations and
cook all the accompanying excessive amounts of food :)

~~~
greg-kroleski
Author here. As we lived in that apartment I constantly reminded myself that
compared to all families from around the world and across time, we had a
luxurious life. Clean water, climate control, safety, food 3 times a day, etc.

We definitely had company over, often gatherings of 10-12 people and one time
we had 5 overnight guests (that was a bit crazy but fun).

~~~
ljk
Very helpful read! Even for someone who doesn't have a lack of space, all the
lessons are still relevant and definitely made me think about my living
spaces.

Also, in the sentence about the coffee table (seen two photos up), shouldn't
that be "second photo from the top"? Unless I misunderstood and tried to find
a coffee table in the photo with the surfboards/piano

~~~
greg-kroleski
Will check, thanks. I shuffled things some during editing and might have
missed that.

Edit: it was in the picture with the surfboards. It is the blue trunk in the
lower left. Coffee table/trunk/changing table

~~~
ljk
Thanks for replying! I see now I was looking at the coffee table in the old
"bachelor setup"

------
raverbashing
The question is why do we have the most talented people in a certain industry
having to live in confined spaces while paying through the roof for it.

Not even Hollywood is like that. People may stay in trailers for some time but
that's it

As personally having to live in a tiny place (not in SF though) it is not
something I want to do for an extended period of time, even though the
advantages like 'city living' are good

~~~
balls187
> The question is why do we have the most talented people in a certain
> industry having to live in confined spaces while paying through the roof for
> it.

Because it's their choice.

Right now the housing market in San Fran is redic. However, there are other
major tech areas that don't nearly have the same problems.

~~~
kzhahou
It's obviously their choice. OP didn't mean anyone is forced against their
will. The question is: why does the vast majority of new tech continue to

A) establish themselves in such an uncomfortable location

B) not embrace distributed teams

It's a terrible cycle at this point.

~~~
BrainInAJar
> why does the vast majority of new tech continue to > A) establish themselves
> in such an uncomfortable location > B) not embrace distributed teams

Hiring networks. You want to hire people based on referrals and not experience
or qualifications, you need to hire through your extended friend network,
which if you're raised in the SF startup scene, is all in SF.

It's also a state of affairs that ends up being unintentionally racist, since
probably most of your friends look like you, and probably most of their
friends that they'll refer to you when you're hiring look like them

------
ChuckMcM
I really like the insight about density. I temporarily changed my living
situation from a 4 bedroom house where my kids had moved out, to a 2 br
apartment and I recognized the density issue but had not conceptualized it so
clearly as the author did.

~~~
greg-kroleski
One of my favorite parts about living in constraints is it forces me to build
new mental models.

~~~
joepvd
Thanks for writing your experiences down so precise and readable. While
reading, I had to think multiple times abouts the movie The Five
Constraints[0], where a profound link is made between restrictions and a boost
in creativity and new thoughts.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Five_Obstructions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Five_Obstructions)

------
eatonphil
I lived in a small bus in New Mexico for a while and got addicted to this
site, [http://tinyhousetalk.com](http://tinyhousetalk.com). You don't have to
be a gypsy to admire the space efficiency and DIY furniture. Most of what I've
put together (sofa, bookshelf, etc.) feels incredibly stronger than anything I
could get for 4-6x the price. But that's just how things are, some trade off
of price for quality for time. Anyway, I admire his/his wife's attitude and
ability to look at the situation optimistically and make it work.

~~~
bpicolo
Even without DIY, I think e.g. Ikea showrooms are actually pretty good at
showing how a little space can go a long way.

That said, I am looking forward to moving away from the Bay someday to more
space. : )

~~~
jschwartzi
Yeah, Ikea furniture seems to be designed for apartment living. Because their
designs use glue-less fastening I can tear down all the furniture in my
apartment and fill a truck without a lot of work. The only thing I wouldn't be
able to move by myself now is my mattress.

The compromise is that the stuff they sell that has significant decorative
elements is extremely flimsy. The malm series is probably the most durable
furniture they sell, because it's just 3/4 inch or 1 inch osb sheeting that's
cut and joined in different configurations with bolts.

~~~
girvo
Indeed. The bulk of my furniture is Malm series stuff. It also looks quite
nice in my apartment!

------
hluska
This is off topic, but in March 2016, I'll become a dad for the first time and
I was wondering if some more experienced parents could answer a question for
me.

That article has a black board with a tally of diapers changed today. The
count was up to thirty. Is that somewhat accurate/possible???

If so, holy shit, I'm investing in cloth....

~~~
ashark
Nah, that's way high.

Diaper pro tip: very young babies (first few months) require a "5-minute rule"
on changing poo diapers. You see them doing it, or smell it, _wait 5 minutes_
to change it. It's very likely it'll be a 2-stage operation, and if you change
it too early you'll waste a diaper when wave 2 hits right after you're done
(after _if you 're lucky_). They can live with it for a few minutes.

Congrats, and good luck. The first ~6-9 months are fairly bad (mostly because
it's a lot of work and kids just aren't that much fun at that age) but when
they start doing stuff it's awesome.

~~~
wj
I would counter that the first nine months are also where you can easily get
away with taking the baby out to a restaurant. After that you have a period of
a few years where that is difficult as they have difficulty staying in one
spot for any length of time.

------
Mz
This was much, much more thoughtful than I expected. Some of the thought
processes resonated with me. I spent a long time getting rid of everything I
owned and, yet, after doing this for three years, I didn't have the change in
mindset I really needed until I kind of marathon watched "Mission:
Organization" on HGTV. I was still stuck in the American mindset of
accumulation. I had long wanted to live more spartanly and I was deadest on
_buying_ my way there -- cuz, yeah, _that_ makes so much sense.

Anyway, it's a really good read and not at all what I was expecting. I am sort
of disappointed that so many of the comments here are about "Boo -- small
space living!" or "Ugh! San Francisco!" or "It's even worse in many other
countries!" because the piece really was not written that way. It wasn't
written as "Ugh! Pity me! Boo hoo!" It is very thoughtful and a really good
read.

I just wish the article had a native tweet button. I couldn't find one.

~~~
greg-kroleski
I've found slow change tends to be lasting change. Really glad you enjoyed the
article, I put a lot of thought into it.

------
hellofunk
This isn't so bad. The Netherlands is the most dense population of any country
outside Taiwan and families dwelling in small spaces continues to this day.
There is a 12-member family spanning 3 generations all living in the same
small house next door to me. Our tiny 60 square meter home is considered
normal for our area. By American standards, SF seems like tight living,
perhaps. But by world standards, space is not the priority that you find
elsewhere in the States.

~~~
philh
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_population_density)

Netherlands is number 30. Admittedly most of the others are a lot smaller, but
Bangladesh and South Korea are a lot bigger.

San Fran is also denser than the Netherlands, and AFAICS denser than any Dutch
city (comparable with The Hague).

~~~
hellofunk
Hm I have a book right in front of me that says it is number 2 in the world,
right after Taiwan. It's this book:

[http://www.xpat.nl/product/holland-
handbook-2015-2016/](http://www.xpat.nl/product/holland-handbook-2015-2016/)

Perhaps they taking other factors into account by excluding city-states like
Singapore, Hong Kong, etc.

~~~
hellofunk
Interesting that in the PDF preview of the book on the page, which is a
slightly newer edition than the one I have, they have changed the discussion
of population density to say this:

>The Netherlands is in the world’s top ten in export volume and it ranks in
the world’s top twenty for GNP, even though, in terms of square kilometers, it
is one of the smallest countries of the world. Though it is true that, in
population density, it is on a par with countries such as India and Japan,
nonetheless this only amounts to a population of almost 16.8 million.

------
Artistry121
In another city a place this cheap would be less than $400 / month. Meaning
someone could choose this lifestyle simply in a different city working for
minimum wage and meet the requirements for housing costs of less than 1/3
income.

~~~
JabavuAdams
The problem is who you're living next to, at that price point, in another
city.

Basically, if you live where all of the minimum-wage people live, you're going
to get spill-over from all the typical problems in such a neighbourhood.

~~~
douche
In other parts of the country, the kind of money the author is paying in rent
on a studio will pay the mortgage on a 2500 sqft house, in an upper-middle
class neighborhood.

In an age of high-speed internet, it's ridiculous that we insist software
engineers be jammed into dense, expensive globs. Working remotely with Skype
calls/IM/screensharing is a better experience, all around, than trying to
collaborate in the same office, at least in my experience. You do have to have
employees that will actually _work_ , though.

~~~
JabavuAdams
For sure, but I was commenting on the parent's $400/mo.

------
JabavuAdams
Fascinating article, and great observation on optimizing density. How do you
think in a space like that? I need personal space just to think.

~~~
gnarbarian
I've known people to at work later if they want time to themselves.

~~~
JabavuAdams
Been there, done that, but it can turn into a bad habit. Oh, look Daddy got
home just as the kids are all prepared and in bed.

------
sz4kerto
:) 400 sqf with two kids might be a drama for people in the US but it is
completely normal in other places of the world, even including the EU. It's
not comfortable, but 600-700 sqf is completely usual for families in where I
live (an apartment like that costs around 15-20 times the average yearly
salary).

EDIT: typo, I meant sqf and not sqm.

~~~
x43b
"400 sqm with two kids might be a drama for people in the US"

400 square feet (~37 m^2)

No need to turn this into another stereotyping Europe vs US issue. I agree 37
m^2 is plenty of room for some people, not for others, regardless of where you
are from.

~~~
goodJobWalrus
> No need to turn this into another stereotyping Europe vs US issue

But it is kind of true that Americans are extremely melodramatic about this
stuff. 800 sqft house is often referred as a "tiny house" in American media.
In the UK (for example) this is an average house size.

~~~
serge2k
The US is over 10 times larger than the UK. Guess what, tons of land leads to
different expectations. I don't understand why Europeans seem to like acting
condescending about this stuff?

~~~
goodJobWalrus
> The US is over 10 times larger than the UK. Guess what, tons of land leads
> to different expectations.

I'm not sure it's just that, it's also I think, that Americans find it
acceptable to live in suburbs. If everyone tried to live in the city centers
(like they do in nyc or SF), small places would also be the norm.

~~~
douche
Why would you want to live in a city center, when you could have 40 acres of
good land in the country for the same money, or less?

Suburbs are a compromise, where you get a little of column A (room enough for
decent living) and a little column B (urban wages and access to capital),
which equals a lot of column C (long, shitty commutes).

~~~
goodJobWalrus
> Why would you want to live in a city center

Well, one reason would be:

> long, shitty commutes

another is that some people prefer urban life.

I bet you'd be surprised to hear that in some countries people actually prefer
to live in apartments to houses.When I ask why, they often state the fact that
it is much less work to upkeep an apartment, so I guess that would be another
reason. I personally understand why would some kid from the midwestern suburbs
want to live in nyc, even if it means a much lower standard of living.

But in reality I think it really is purely cultural, people prefer what people
like them around them prefer. People in the US were living in the cities as
well before the "white flight", so at some point, urban middle class families
were also the norm.

~~~
Turing_Machine
"I bet you'd be surprised to hear that in some countries people actually
prefer to live in apartments to houses."

One sniff test for the credibility of this is to look at what rich people do.

No matter where you go, the wealthy tend to have large country estates. Sure,
they may have a luxury apartment in town as well, but where do they spend
their leisure time? Bingo.

~~~
goodJobWalrus
I wasn't referring to rich people. They have a whole different set of
requirements. Also, they typically don't have to clean their own mansion, of
take care of the pesky chores around the house.

~~~
goodJobWalrus
> Someone who is forced to live in a tiny apartment because they can't afford
> anything better isn't really making a free choice, even if they rationalize
> it by claiming that it is.

Of course, but I wasn't referring to those people. I was talking about the
people who prefer to live in apartments, like, for example, my parents who
moved from a house (that was actually in a great location) to an apartment by
choice (in a worse location, and some years after that in another apt in a
better location). Now they live in a house again (not by choice), but keep
their city apartment. And my mom keeps telling me how she hates the house, and
can't wait to move back to the city apartment :)

and she even has a housekeeper so it's not like she has to do the whole work
around the house by herself. This is why I say it's really deeply culturally
embedded. You are not able to step out of your cultural conditioning and
imagine that there are people who really truly prefer to live in apartment.

~~~
Turing_Machine
You're talking about specific people (your parents). I'm talking about society
as a whole. Are there people who prefer living in an apartment? Sure, but most
people, regardless of "cultural conditioning", will choose a large country
dwelling over a small city apartment if they have the resources to do so. This
is true everywhere, in every society and culture, and across all of known
history.

~~~
goodJobWalrus
It is actually fascinating how convinced you are that your worldview must be
the prevailing one. Yes, you accept that it is possible for the "specific
people" to have different preferences, but no way that these can be anything
else but individual quirks of the few, and not embedded in a culture, despite
you not knowing anything about the culture in question.

Really, you exhausted all my arguments.

~~~
Turing_Machine
"It is actually fascinating how convinced you are that your worldview must be
the prevailing one."

Look, you have admitted that rich people (i.e., the people who actually have a
choice) prefer country dwellings.

This was true in Ancient Rome. It was true in Victorian England. It was true
in the Soviet Union. And it is true wherever it is that you live.

"Really, you exhausted all my arguments."

No, the facts on the ground have exhausted your arguments.

~~~
goodJobWalrus
> Look, you have admitted that rich people (i.e., the people who actually have
> a choice) prefer country dwellings.

No, I haven't. I am totally disinterested in rich people and what they prefer,
but I'm not sure that there are fewer rich people living in cities such as NYC
or Shangai than in the country.

> And it is true wherever it is that you live.

Right. Good to know. I'll let you get on with it now.

------
tracker1
I'm about to move going from 1100sft to about 800, and bemoaning that
change... it's hard for me to imagine 400... I lived for almost two years in
under 500sqft, and don't think I could ever do it again... as soon as I was
able, I moved into the biggest apartment I could find close to where I wanted
to live.

I'm only making the change I am now because it's actually closer to the job I
started a couple months ago, and I'm hoping in the next 18 months to have my
credit clear (still paying off medical bills from 5-6 years ago), my car is
paid off in 14 months, and want to have enough for a down payment for a house.

It's hard for me to imagine living in SF, where rent is significantly more
than I pay now, and the pay doesn't quite correlate.

------
ilaksh
This is one reason I think we should do a type of zoning in-between urban and
suburban. Even if you divide a normal residential suburban lot into 9 pieces,
if you do two stories, then every little lot could contain 578 square feet,
which is 178 square feet more than their 400 square feet apartment.

[http://runvnc.github.io/tinyvillage/](http://runvnc.github.io/tinyvillage/)

------
daveloyall
The author describes a strategy: maximize the density of storage space and
minimize the density of living space.

I had discovered that excellent wisdom independently when setting up my
various college dorm rooms.

He later says that he is "forever changed" by the experience. I hope so.
Myself, I had forgotten, and I thank him for the reminder.

------
lazyant
I'll be that guy: affect != effect

~~~
greg-kroleski
Thanks, I fixed it. If only there was a way I could let people open up PRs to
my blog posts to fix typos and grammatical errors :)

------
RMacy
Great and insightful article. Loved the line about getting larger pants to fix
a weight problem.

------
noir_lord
As someone who got into cycling a few years ago Rule V (Harden the Fuck Up)
has permeated the rest of my life.

If you can do 50 miles when the hail is coming in sideways and it's dark and
your on a hill in the middle of nowhere then everything else seems easier.

------
goodJobWalrus
I had a colleague in nyc, who moved with his homemaker wife and 2 children,
from Utah where they owned their own home, to nyc to live in a studio. I
thought it was a very brave choice.

------
prbuckley
I really want to know where the author moved next. It doesn't mention it
specifically in the article.

~~~
greg-kroleski
It is north of San Francisco and rains a lot

------
Camillo
What's a good way of storing clothes if you don't have a closet?

~~~
veidr
I live in Japan, where a lot of people live in spaces that small (and
smaller). My wife and I did too (before having kids though) and what is common
in Japan is these expandable bars that you can put up between any two strong
walls.

In our case, we put one up over the middle of our bed, and hung all our
clothes on it (even hanging-optional stuff like T-shirts). You had to kind of
tunnel through it when getting into bed, but this let us make use of the
otherwise useless airspace over our bed. It also formed a kind of soft wall or
curtain that made the area where your head was darker than the rest of the
main room. That was handy when one person wanted to sleep and the other was
still working.

------
fixxer
Man, I love Chicago.

------
serge2k
Interesting this about San Francisco, you don't have to live there.

------
DHJSH
If neither of them worked, they could get a three bedroom apartment at
Taxpayer expense!

[http://www.section8facts.com/2014/10/23/section-8-guidelines...](http://www.section8facts.com/2014/10/23/section-8-guidelines-
for-unit-size-how-many-bedrooms-updated/)

------
elcct
That is stupid. If your salary won't cover decent living then why bother? It
is people like yourself who drive rates low and then post how difficult is to
live on them...

~~~
IkmoIkmo
> That is stupid. If your salary won't cover decent living then why bother?

I think you fail to see that he'd definitely describe his living over the past
few years as 'decent', and likely even much more than just decent.

~~~
greg-kroleski
Can confirm. My life is awesome.

