
Ghost in the Shell remains our most challenging film about technology - noir-york
http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/film/2016/02/ghost-shell-over-two-decades-old-remains-our-most-challenging-film-about
======
alexleavitt
In fact, I would argue that Ghost in the Shell's entire franchise remains the
most intriguing and exciting science fiction media about networked technology.

If you have never seen the 2-season TV series (and 3 additional films), "Ghost
in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex"
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_in_the_Shell:_Stand_Alon...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_in_the_Shell:_Stand_Alone_Complex)),
it is by far the best contemporary outlook on near-future internet technology
still. Black Mirror is up there, but I think that Ghost in the Shell: SAC
presents this cultural criticism in a much stronger (ie., less unhappy) tone.

~~~
peter_l_downs
Do you have any other recommendations along the same vein? Literature, tv,
mobies - I'm interested in absorbing more "near future" sci fi, particularly
those that focus on identity issues. I had a lot of fun reading Stross's
Accelerando and Vinge's Deepness series.

~~~
oddlydrawn
\- Psycho Pass[1] (just providing a link, I know it's been said)

\- Space Brothers[2] (It's a bit like a soap opera but scifi)

\- Serial Experiments Lain[3]

\- Texhnolyze[4] (The tone doesn't change and it can be difficult to watch)

\- Dennou Coil[5] (No streaming sites found, so MAL link. Watch it if you can
find it)

[1] [http://www.funimation.com/shows/psycho-
pass/home](http://www.funimation.com/shows/psycho-pass/home)

[2] [http://www.crunchyroll.com/space-
brothers](http://www.crunchyroll.com/space-brothers)

[3] [http://www.funimation.com/shows/serial-experiments-
lain/home](http://www.funimation.com/shows/serial-experiments-lain/home)

[4]
[http://www.funimation.com/shows/texhnolyze/home](http://www.funimation.com/shows/texhnolyze/home)

[5]
[http://myanimelist.net/anime/2164/Dennou_Coil/](http://myanimelist.net/anime/2164/Dennou_Coil/)

~~~
tjl
Dennou Coil has been licensed by Maiden Japan.

[http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2016-02-23/maiden-
japan...](http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2016-02-23/maiden-japan-
licenses-den-noh-coil-anime/.99009)

It's coming out on Blu-Ray and DVD on June 28th. It's possible it might become
available for streaming at some point after that.

------
beloch
A warning for those thinking of re-watching (or watching for the first time!)
Ghost in the Shell:

Avoid the "Ghost in the Shell 2.0" edition of this film, which was released on
Bluray a few years back. For this version, it was decided to "upgrade" the
original film with new CG elements, very much in the same mindset as George
Lucas and Star Wars. You might think it reasonable for someone to go back,
identify weaker scenes in the original, and then attempt to fix the results of
budget and time limitations. This is what Lucas did, and even that was
divisive for fans. However, that's not what happened in the case of "Ghost in
the Shell". Instead, they redid the same big, expensive, gloriously detailed
moments that the original splurged on. The result is that some of the film's
best shots are replaced with poor quality CG that is jarringly out of place.
On the whole, "Ghost in the Shell 2.0" makes George Lucas look restrained,
respectful, and subtle.

Oh, and for some reason they ripped out the U2 credits song too. If you liked
that track you might miss it.

The 25th anniversary version that recently came out is apparently the
theatrical version, so that would be a better bet, although I cannot guarantee
it's good personally (I haven't seen it yet).

~~~
MrGando
Totally agree, mentioned that too. The 3D stuff is horrible, just try to watch
the original version....

------
Cyph0n
GitS is undoubtedly one of the best hard sci-fi universes ever conceived. The
series Stand Alone Complex is in my opinion the high point of it all. It
tackles such a large variety of deep societal issues that do not yet exist in
a very effective way.

One thing that makes the series top-notch for me is the original soundtrack,
composed by the great Yoko Kanno. I mean, wow, some of songs are gems, with
lyrics that are deeper than most songs I've heard.

Be Human: [https://youtu.be/fDtLpCzKqkQ](https://youtu.be/fDtLpCzKqkQ)

Living Inside the Shell:
[https://youtu.be/YSj91yopjDg](https://youtu.be/YSj91yopjDg)

If you're a fan of sci-fi, be sure to watch the series at least.

------
jokoon
Except this GITS movie and Ex Machina, there are no other movie who really has
a good, serious talk about AI. Matrix don't even come close to that in that
regard.

The whole "What is human intelligence if it can live inside a machine? What if
AI can actually be smarter than us? And by the way, how to define and measure
intelligence ?" questions is really fascinating.

The GITS movie will always my ultimate favorite movie, not only because it's
brilliantly directed, but because that seems to exactly be what AI scientists
are trying to do. It also raises good question of psychology: how does a brain
work, and can we heal mental illnesses? We might never know and we might wait
300 years or more to figure it out.

~~~
draugadrotten
> Except this GITS movie and Ex Machina, there are no other movie who really
> has a good, serious talk about AI.

The movie "Her" has a different take on what it is like with being an AI, and
I liked it.

~~~
atom-morgan
I agree. Throughout the entire movie I kept thinking, "Damn. I'd have feelings
for that girl really quick." And it was just a voice.

------
zipwitch
There's also the original manga _Ghost in the Shell_ by Masamune Shirow (first
published back in 1991), and it's two sequels _Vol 2. Man-Machine Interface_
and _Vol 1.5. Human-Error Processor_, published in 2001 and 2003 (years later
in the US).
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_in_the_Shell_%28manga%29](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_in_the_Shell_%28manga%29)

Like a lot of GitS media, they're unique and don't mesh perfectly with the
others, but if you like SAC, you'll probably like them. A lot of scenes are
echoed between the various OAVs and the manga, especially the first.

------
teekert
Puppet Master: It can also be argued that DNA is nothing more than a program
designed to preserve itself. Life has become more complex in the overwhelming
sea of information. And life, when organized into species, relies upon genes
to be its memory system. So, man is an individual only because of his
intangible memory... and memory cannot be defined, but it defines mankind. The
advent of computers, and the subsequent accumulation of incalculable data has
given rise to a new system of memory and thought parallel to your own.
Humanity has underestimated the consequences of computerization.

Edit: Just a quote, to show my fellow HN-ers that these are must-watch movies.

~~~
cgh
No offence but this quote seems a bit trite? I watched this movie years ago
but I don't really remember it. Did it predict smartphones? That's kind of a
litmus test.

~~~
corysama
The main characters are mostly cyborgs. They speak to each other remotely
through telepathy-style wireless SSL-of-the-future. Remote exploits of
people's heads are rare in the world canon, but are a focus of the story. So,
they are a frequent topic of the series.

------
newman314
As much as I love GITS, I feel like so much of Minority Report is prescient to
much of what we are seeing now or starting to see, from pre-crime to the
personalized advertising. And that is scary.

~~~
ekianjo
> I feel like so much of Minority Report is prescient

That was a shallow movie if I ever remember one. How could a whole society
idea of justice depend on just a set of 3 freaks detained in a kind of
underground lab. This just does not make any sense, because it does not scale
and it depends way too much on the human factor.

I'd wager that if such a thing ever exist in the future, it will be a matter
of computers calculating probabilities based on a huge dataset they are
constantly mining to detect abnormalities. But even if that were the case, it
would probably fail to work unless you have a direct feed into everyone's
private lives and way of thinking (and i don't mean just internet spying, it
would need to go way further than that).

~~~
solipsism
This shallowness is my biggest pet peeve about science fiction. It irks me
especially in novels, because in that format the author has room to flesh
things out.

I find older science fiction especially to seem to be made from cardboard
cutouts. I couldn't make it through the first book of Asimov's Foundation
series for that reason. A masterpiece in the estimation of many, but
unbearably simplistic and shallow to me. A story stretching across a galaxy
and hundreds of years, and nothing seems to be happening in that galaxy except
the minor events driving the main characters forward.

------
Adam_O
I liked the GITS SAC series a lot because of how well they balanced the action
plot points with discussion about technology, security, politics and
philosophy. Overall I'd struggle to think of another series which strikes that
balance so well.

------
MrGando
I watched the original in 1995. It is a masterpiece, have rewatched many many
times, always great. The remastered version with 3D is horrible though. The
Stand Alone Complex is way more pop-corn material, also easier to digest,
didn't really like it very much. The original film's pace is closer to a
Tarkovsky film... Slower, more profound, poetic at times.

------
ptrincr
If you're going to watch the film for the first time, which you should as its
awesome, don't watch the dubbed version. Make sure you watch it with
subtitles.

~~~
Wildgoose
That pretty much goes for any movie or anime, I would say.

One exception would be the English version of the childrens show "Magic
Roundabout" which I believe was originally a French political satire. The
English version just watched the show and then made up a story to go along
with what was happening on screen.

I presume Zebedee was meant to be a caricature of de Gaulle but if I am
mistaken I am sure somebody will correct me. :-)

~~~
fennecfoxen
> That pretty much goes for any movie or anime, I would say.

The _possible_ exception would be _Steins;Gate_ ; I contend that the mad-
scientist ranting sounds better in your native tongue.

(I am aware of the position that it's somewhat less authentic and will concede
that the English version of Mayuuri's tu-tu-ruu is of lower quality.)

~~~
stordoff
I'm generally not too bothered about sub. v. dub, but for some reason I find
Steins;Gate in English to be really jarring. Not sure why, but I feel like the
voices don't really fit the characters in the dubbed version.

------
chromaton
I saw two of the series and liked the plot, action, setting, etc.

That said, I didn't appreciate the title conceit and thought the stories got
weak whenever they approached it.

There is no ghost in the shell, not in the real world. A person's thoughts,
character, and emotions come from neurons, hormones, and sensory input.
There's no way to take a person's unique consciousness out of their body, keep
it in a jar, and move it somewhere else.

At best it might be possible to emulate someone's brain, but that's not what
they did in Ghost in the Shell.

~~~
yarou
That was the whole point of the series, though.

Is the Major the same Major as she was at the beginning of the film?

~~~
joshguthrie
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus)

------
nickpsecurity
Good write-up on it. Probably one of its lasting effects was partial
inspiration for The Matrix: the first, mainstream, "thinking-man's," action
movie. It had audiences leaving with questions about themselves instead of
just flat quotes from a movie. Had plenty of them, too. ;)

Always wanted to see more of this genre. I know they're doing a live action
Ghost in the Shell. Have mixed feelings about that. Nonetheless, I'd like to
see more movies that have enough tropes and cultural tie-ins to be successful
but throw in those GitS or Matrix-style element to really get people thinking.

Most recent in get you thinking, but not mainstream, movies is Ex Machina.
Whole movie, minus a few things, is essentially built on the acting and esp
dialogue that questions reality. Kind of a budget film but I thought it was
great. Just watch the movie not the trailers as there might be some spoilers
in there.

------
hit8run
I read ghost in the shell and was in the same moment reminded to Wamdue
Project - King of my castle. The music video was done with Ghost in the Shell
scenes.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwdlqquJDK4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwdlqquJDK4)

~~~
asymmetric
Well that's not actually the original video, just a YouTube user's creation.
This is the original one:
[http://youtu.be/DXSyQjppqG0](http://youtu.be/DXSyQjppqG0)

~~~
muuck
I remember the gits version being shown on TV all the time. I've never seen
the version you've just posted.

EDIT: This is not the GITS version shown on tv. The TV video only had footage
of the tank scene.

------
NicoJuicy
If you like series about technology, try out 'Black Mirror' on netflix... It
has some interesting approaches...

Eg. What could happen if there exists a chip that stores all your memories. Is
it good or bad? :-)

~~~
draugadrotten
I would caution against Black Mirror. I felt it was mostly about tabloid style
shock value and not about technology. Especially the first episode was just
awful - e.g. the pig fucking scene.

~~~
slfnflctd
I watched the first three episodes. Every single one had a primary focus of
intense sexual shame or violation, and they all ended in just about the most
miserable way possible. It was extremely well done, but some of us have enough
negativity in our lives without piling more on in our rest & relaxation time.

I might have gone on if they were alternating the pattern or something, it was
simply too much of one ugly core theme for me.

~~~
ionised
There is one consistent theme throughout Black Mirror, and that is _' we are
so close to this being the world we live in, given one or two missteps'_.

The series was never intended to be positive in any way. It's supposed to be a
kind of terrifying warning.

------
snake_plissken
I just finished up watching almost all of Ghost in the Shell, from the
original movie to Stand Alone Complex; I still need to re-watch Innocence.
Originally I'd gotten into it back when I was a wee teen in the early/mid
2000s, and I hadn't completely understood the topics and commentary then. It
was just cool action sequences with intriguing characters and an engaging
story. All I can say now is, wow; the series is on-point. It's top tier sci-
fi, up there with the likes of Neuromancer and Blade Runner. SAC is awesome
and I liked it the most, since it has some really nice side episodes that
expand on the world, like the one where the one Tachikoma's (a Tachikoma being
this spider like mech with a nascent AI) neural net starts to develop beyond
its parameters due to some "natural oils", but the whole series is amazing.

Just don't watch the original video animation things (OVA), which are
basically two movies that each are amalgamations of Stand Alone Complex's two
seasons. Not only is Batou's voice different, they don't do SAC any justice.
Those things should be banned.

~~~
mercurial
Oh dear. I watched Innocence with a friend when it came out, and to this I
don't have any idea of what it was trying to say. I liked GitS very much, as
well as the first season of SAC, despite the oversexualization of the main
character (ugh fan service).

~~~
bsder
Yeah, I consider Innocence to be the most visually interesting (some of the
scenes are just gorgeous), but it was kind of a mess in terms of story.

------
lostmsu
I personally believe Transcendence has the most realistic future (if you
exclude humanity at the very end of it).

------
jhildings
On a side note, a manga that also takes up this subject but is set more far in
the future is Battle Angel Alita , that is about a cyborg with a human brain

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_Angel_Alita](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_Angel_Alita)

------
Confusion
I'm very surprised by the responses. GitS made no sense to me whatsoever. I
did not understand the plot or the world. Now I'm wondering whether I perhaps
saw some 'wrong' version that indeed did not make sense.

~~~
andrewulrich
I was also thrown off by this movie. I remember watching it in college. It
seemed very disjointed, throwing around a bunch of dialogue, vocab,
characters, politics, etc. at me that seemed badly translated and only poorly
if ever explained or described. Sure, plenty of eye candy and then some
somewhat intriguing AI stuff at the end. Recently, I tried watching a couple
episodes of SAC, and while it was easier to follow, it felt again like I was
only understanding about half the dialogue.

I am also told that it can be a little off-putting or disorienting to some
because it is more concept-driven than plot-driven, which, in addition to
being an awkward mashing together of the beginning and the end of the manga
(manga wrangling seems in some form or other a common source of awkwardness in
anime- e.g. Akira), is probably why it was hard for me to follow. To each his
own, I suppose, but I think it's cool when you have both a well-told story AND
intriguing concepts (e.g. Neuromancer, Gattaca, Blade Runner, etc.)

------
lololomg
"In the near future - corporate networks reach out to the stars. Electrons and
light flow throughout the universe. The advance of computerisation, however,
has not yet wiped out nations and ethnic groups."

------
rhubinak
If you are interested in GiTS and also are an occasional gamer, I would
strongly recommend to give Deus Ex a try. The story of the first game deals
with similar themes as GiTS.

~~~
ionised
Best game ever made. No question in my mind.

------
noir-york
I'm glad to see that GiTS has inspired such a discussion and so many comments.
Its a masterpiece of story telling, futurism and the challenges facing
society, not just robotics/AI but also demographics (Solid State Society).

I still get goose bumps every time I watch this
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsIQ_kA77b4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsIQ_kA77b4)

~~~
te0x
Have you watched all of it? I want to get into it but am not sure where to
start. If you had to choose 1-2 seasons of TV and a few films, which ones
would you watch?

~~~
noir-york
Yes of course! I've indeed watched all of them.

For the purest GiTS experience I would just watch the first three films GiTS
(1995), Innocence, and Stand Alone Complex.

GiTS 2.0, in an attempt at improving the graphics, ruined the original feel. I
watched the TV series - not bad, but not the masterpieces of story telling
that the 3 films are.

But who cares what I think - what them all, and form your own conclusions :)

------
treme
To SAC fans __* MAJOR SPOILERS __*

check out this fan theory on identity of laughing man.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Ghost_in_the_Shell/comments/2j9p8j/...](https://www.reddit.com/r/Ghost_in_the_Shell/comments/2j9p8j/theory_on_the_laughing_man/)

------
thrillgore
Ghost in the Shell, the mangas, the two movies, SAC... are the kind of media
that every home should have a copy of. Its not just prophetic, but really
accessible and satisfactory from just a sheer nerdiness perspective, the same
way Star Trek must have been to everyone in the 1960s.

------
jessaustin
It's been some time since I read anything on this site but I have to ask: did
they decide on the hero graphic, _and then_ also decide they had to code up a
method to keep that nipple covered unless the reader _really_ wanted to see
it? That's too funny.

------
VeejayRampay
Serial Experiments Lain wasn't too bad either.

------
te0x
I want to get into it but am not sure where to start. If you had to choose 1-2
seasons of TV and a few films, which ones would you watch?

------
protomyth
side topic and NSFW: [https://vimeo.com/96621373](https://vimeo.com/96621373)
is a interesting attempt to do the front sequence in a live action video. They
do a good job, and it is as NSFW as the original.

I do wonder how the hollywood version will mess up this movie.

------
alistproducer2
I've never been an anime fan, but GITS remains one of my favorite movies of
all time. Dat soundtrack tho.

