
Ask HN: Is it improper to invite ex-coworkers to join your startup? - jitbit
A year ago I quit my job and went fulltime with my startup, but before quitting I met some wonderful people at the company I worked for.<p>And I'd love to invite one of them to work with me, but I felt this is kinda improper to entice somebody from my ex-employer...<p>But now I heard that this person is quitting anyway. He got bored, sick, tired and pissed off by his job, so I made my offer that he accepted.<p>I've sent a polite notice to my ex-boss which read: "just so you know, I've sent an offer to one of your people who's quitting anyway, JFYI, hope thats OK" and he totally lost his temper.
He called us traitors and insists I cancel my offer, because this is a threat to his company, because his staff "should not know they have a choice to work for YOU when they quit my company!". So I'm kinda confused... We never signed any "non-compete" agreements, nor promised anything like this verbally, so I guess we're not doing anything wrong right?
======
abbasmehdi
I think you created this problem for yourself starting with your 'polite
note'. How would you feel about a polite note from a friend saying that he is
now going out with the same girl who dumped you yesterday?

I think you need to think through things before acting on your nice-guy
impulses. You have definitely ruined your relationship with your ex-boss for
no good reason.

At this point you want to keep your guy and not have your former boss sue you
over it (even if you have a strong case he will make you sink money in legal
costs, so avoid court if you can). You can do this by convincing your former
boss that your new guy did not know about his options until after he quit.
Don't get into a wrestling match with him, even if you are right.

Good luck!

~~~
georgemcbay
I 100% agree with the first part of this, sending the note was a mistake even
if the intentions were good. As far as the second part goes, I think the guy
should just cut off contact with the old boss completely at this point. The
damage is done, continued contact is likely to do more damage than good.

If he sues you, he sues you, but contacting him proactively or in response to
anything other than a formal legal setting should just be avoided.

------
Mz
Since he was quitting anyway, if anything, the only thing you did "wrong" was
send the FYI. Seems potentially gauche, like, er, sending a note to a chum
saying "I'm banging your ex"?*

I do not have a company and have never been in this situation. But that's kind
of what it sounds like to me.

* WRT other comments made here, I will add that timing and delivery make a big difference. It's not just what you do, but how and when.

------
fragsworth
Fuck ethics between employers about this issue. Poaching is a great thing for
employees. If you successfully poach someone it's normally because they were
being underpaid and/or wanted to leave anyway on account of their job sucking.
It benefits your company, it benefits the employee you poached, and it
generally benefits the remaining employees of the company you poached from. It
only hurts the stakeholders of the company you poached from.

Take pride in poaching, it's a net gain for society. However, try not to poach
too many employees from the same company or you might really screw them (and
their employees) over.

~~~
kanamekun
From the tone of your post (e.g. "Fuck ethics between employers about this
issue."), I'm going to guess you haven't been an employer before?

------
edw519
_So I'm kinda confused..._

You shouldn't be. Here's what happened:

You thought your ex-boss wasn't an asshole. You were wrong and you found out
the hard way. Now that you're in business, sad to say that it's probably not
the last time that will happen.

You were a gentleman and he was a jerk. Please don't let this experience keep
you from being a gentleman in future business dealings.

I would not cancel the offer. Carry on.

Best wishes to you both. Keep us posted.

~~~
gyardley
I agree with the overall sentiment here, but in this case I'd rather the
departing employee be the gentleman and give me a heads-up, instead of his
future employer.

------
HardyLeung
This is not a problem with "non-compete" per se, but with use of
confidential/proprietary information such as who's employed, what's the org
chart. You have a much better case if the ex-colleague publicly shares his
contact information, say on Facebook or Twitter or LinkedIn. Otherwise, your
ex-boss could make the argument that you "stole" or misappropriate company
confidential information. Yes it could be a very weak case but I have seen
such threats being made. The etiquette is to not actively seek ex-coworkers
for say at least one year. On the other hand, if you drop hints and the ex-
coworker initiated the conversation about joining you, then you're fine.
That's my take (not a lawyer).

Like the other commenter said, you did a dis-service to yourself by notifying
your ex-boss, especially given your wording (face-palm).

------
X-Istence
No, it is not improper to invite ex-coworkers, however emailing your old boss
may not have been the best of moves. Should have let him find out over
LinkedIn or some other method.

~~~
KeyBoardG
I think it depends on the nature of the relationships. If your startup, for
example, is taking on your old company head on, then you may want take this
approach. But, and we do this regularly when hiring from past companies or
partners, call their boss and make sure it doesn't damage the relationship.
You wouldnt want to harm future business with them.

------
arkitaip
You're not doing anything wrong, legally or ethically. People are adults and
can make their own career decisions. Besides, if you can get someone great on
your team and save them from an awful job, you're doing something good. Just
don't send any more notes to your ex-boss.

------
rcfox
Not at all. Your previous employer is probably just beginning to see that he
will be the last one left on a sinking ship.

~~~
greenyoda
Indeed. The boss said that his staff "should not know they have a choice to
work for YOU when they quit my company!" If the only way he has of holding on
to his employees is to try to keep them from learning about other job
opportunities, then he's playing a losing game.

~~~
nickzoic
I'd format that quote nicely, frame it, and hang it on the wall of my office
:-).

------
tatsuke95
Short answer: no, it isn't improper.

Longer answer: it's case by case, depending on the relationships of the
individuals involved. Formally, you don't owe your ex-employer anything, and
unless you've explicitly signed an agreement that you're breaking, there are
no worries. Of course, it's probably more complicated than that, so use the
old put-yourself-in-the-other's-shoes principle. Do you feel like the way
you're approaching it is wrong?

As you've explained it, the guy quit and your ex-boss is childish. You're all
grownups and are free to make decisions. No point putting yourself out to
protect someone who likely doesn't care about you or your business.

------
j45
The short:

You don't owe him anything, he doesn't owe anything to you. Carry on.

\--

The long:

In business, there is no loyalty, only favor which can be earned over time and
courtesy, but it's definitely both ways and can be lost in an in instant
anyways.

Your former employer lives, like many entrepreneurs in their own reality.

In hindsight, what would a heads up possibly help your ex-employer with? What
would a blessing with your ex-employer possibly do?

Most employers hate losing good employees, especially when they have little to
no systemization or documentation. They can take that (incorrectly) as a
threat to their business.

Would your former employer ask you for permission to lay you off or fire you?

If your'e in the US, you probably fall under at will employment, meaning
anyone can be hired, can quit, or be fired, at any time, for any reason
anyways. I doubt he'd extend the courtesy to anyone.

It doesn't sound like you were actively recruiting or poaching. It doesn't
sound like you're competing with your former employer, except maybe with a
more enjoyable work environment. Even if you might have been there's no
agreement in place.

Being a good person in business is hard, and important to keep. There is no
shortage of losers who will try to break you and make you into a jerk. Being
too nice and inviting people to lash out can be avoided by not feeding the
monster. Live and learn, it's okay. You have nothing to feel guilty for.

------
JoshTriplett
Some employers do have clauses in their employment contracts saying that you
cannot invite your former co-workers to leave and come work with/for you for a
certain amount of time after you leave. However, it sounds like your employer
didn't do that

But as numerous people have said, you probably shouldn't have sent the mail
you did, and certainly not in the form you did.

~~~
dotBen
_Some employers do have clauses in their employment contracts saying that you
cannot invite your former co-workers to leave and come work with/for you for a
certain amount of time after you leave._

Yes, but depending on the state you live in (eg Cali) that isn't legal and
thus unenforceable.

(you need to check your local state laws, or country law if outside of USA)

~~~
earl
Ben,

My understanding is you are wrong -- while noncompetes are invalid in
California, non solicitation agreements are enforceable or at least enough of
a grey area that you really don't want to get in a pissing match with a
company with in-house counsel. Not to mention the valley is really small.

Maybe a proper lawyer could clarify?

~~~
dotBen
I've never presented myself as a "proper" lawyer or improper lawyer :)

The problem with "pissing matches" with in-house counsel is that they can
happen even when you're 100% in the legal right. Anyone can send you a C&D and
threaten you to court over anything - whether they are legally correct is
another matter.

Justice only exists if you can afford to stand for it with your time and
money.

------
mixmax
No, it's perfectly fine.

If you're doing a startup you're in a competitive environment where you need
to do whatever you can to get the best people aboard. People are what make or
break startups. You're committed to your startup, not your former employer -
rest assured that he if he is any good at what he does he would have done the
same thing.

And good luck with your new venture :-)

------
ryanpers
Always ask yourself before you send an email, what are you hoping to do with
the email? Get something out of someone? Maintain or build a relationship?
Make that person feel bad? Gloat?

In this case it sounds like you had no purpose at all... Just "being nice". It
was probably interpreted as "you are trying to make me feel bad" by your ex-
boss. Note I did not say MISINTERPRETED, because that implies it is his fault.
It is not, it is up to you to control how you appear and everything
surrounding that messaging.

You learned a hard lesson here, you lost a potential future ally. Shrug, learn
the lesson and move on.

And finally, it ie never improper to offer ex-coworkers jobs, just be aware
of: \- legal obligations wrt non-compete, and IP. it might be wise to honor an
non-compete even if it isnt legally enforceable. Don't like non-competes? dont
sign them. \- relationship status and feeling. how will the other side feel?

------
andrewtbham
I wouldn't have sent the letter. The old boss knows you are testing the waters
and he is giving you what you asked for. I would probably hire the guy and not
contact the old boss under any circumstance, expect if he sues you.

~~~
davidandgoliath
And especially not if he opens suit -- as all communication would then go via
your lawyer.

------
0x12
It depends. As long as they freely choose to leave and then you hook up,
that's just fine. If you poach then you're setting yourself up for being
poached in return.

Keep the high ground and you'll do just great.

One of my co-founders was a guy that I worked with for years and I only
approached him after he left the company that he was working with, afterwards
of course we got a lot of flak but I could easily prove that I had not
approached him until after he quit and that was that.

Of course legally you're on solid ground either way, but it's a small world
and word does get around so it is better to play it safe and clean rather than
legal.

------
lien
OMG...I would never notify the ex-boss. First of all, it's not your position
to do charity work. Notifying the ex-boss is. Then, you're putting your
coworker in an unfavorable position because you don't know that he's truly
going to accept your offer. If he accepts the offer and retracts it, how do
you think it'd make him look to his employer? and it's not your position to
tell his boss that!!

------
rfurlan
It is a free economy, you can make offers to anyone you want. To say you can't
is to denounce capitalism itself, isn't it?

------
GameGamer43
It's not wrong to approach former co-workers for a new venture. With that
said, reaching out to the former employer and giving them a heads up can and
usually will cause issues whether you meant for them or not.

------
teyc
Let's put it this way, you have an employee who is now pretty much integrated
into your business, and there might be a bit of trouble at work or things are
going through a rough patch, and he is unhappy. You'd probably be unhappy if
an ex-employee offered him a job, and took him away, when you thought you
might be able to do something to fix up the relationship.

Just be mindful of this in the future. Karma can be a bitch.

------
YuriNiyazov


------
michaelochurch
Why'd you notify your ex-boss? That was a dumb move. What did you hope to
accomplish?

Is it okay to bring ex-coworkers to your startup? Yes, but as long as you tell
the absolute truth. Don't lie to them and don't sugar-coat, and make sure
you're operating in _their_ interests, not yours.

Extending an offer is not the same thing as "poaching". You're not doing
anything unethical as long as you don't lie about your company, its prospects,
or your friend's role in it.

Remember though that your job (ethically speaking) is not to sell the position
to your friend. It's to extend another option so your friend can make the best
decision for him (which may or may not be to join you).

~~~
ced
_Extending an offer is not the same thing as "poaching"._

Honest question: what's the difference? What would constitute poaching in this
situation?

~~~
roedog
I think poaching would be making an offer that was forbidden - or that you had
signed an agreement to not do. In this case, as presented, there is no such
violation. (right to work state, any non-compete agreement had expired, etc).

A losing manager might call it poaching anyways because they wanted to retain
the worker - but that would just be hot air.

~~~
michaelochurch
Actually, I would argue that an existing non-compete is a _great_ reason
(morally speaking, ignoring pragmatic concerns) to hire someone. Bad rules
should be not bent but broken into little pieces.

