
On Refusing to Disclose Your Salary in a Job Interview  - kqr2
http://bucks.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/17/on-refusing-to-disclose-your-salary-in-a-job-interview/
======
iantimothy
I've only changed jobs once, but I do talk to enough people who are
responsible for hiring to know some of the thought processes.

Potential employers want to know your salary so that they can avoid paying you
more than required. What's the required amount? The benchmark that's
informally thrown around is 20% more than the last pay. It seems that's the
magic number to convince people that it is worth the hassle of changing jobs,
trying to fit into a new environment...

One thing they (the hiring people) also like to know is how long you stayed at
a job. Using industry standards for yearly increments, based on your past
salary, they can guess your starting point or even guess whether you have had
any increments.

What they will then do is make an educated guess whether you are a sucker for
punishment. If they can tell you've been in a job for some time without any
pay movement, they've won. They know it must have been some tremendous push
factor that made you want to leave, something along the lines that you're
tired of not getting more monetary compensation or job satisfaction has fallen
till unspeakable lows. Power in the negotiation swings to their side.

I think when negotiating anything, it is always best to reveal as little as
possible. Your past salary is one of them.

On another note, and this is anecdotal evidence - employers who pay just
enough for you to jump ship and join their company and NOT pay you for the
value of the work you're about to do or that they know you can contribute, are
most likely employers who will bleed you to death in the work environment.

~~~
funthree
>employers who pay just enough for you to jump ship and join their company and
NOT pay you for the value of the work you're about to do or that they know you
can contribute, are most likely employers who will bleed you to death in the
work environment.

This is happening to me currently

~~~
berntb
If you missed this, it might be helpful:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1677013>

------
patio11
"As a matter of professional courtesy, I decline to answer questions about
specific policies of previous employers. Your client should be able to
appreciate this, considering that a few years from now it will be their trust
that I am protecting."

~~~
bravura
An alternate version:

"Unfortunately, like many other aspects of my employment, my compensation is
covered under NDA with my previous employer. I take my promise not to disclose
very seriously."

If you did sign an NDA, in all likelihood you _cannot_ disclose your salary
without violating the terms.

Or, you could just be direct, like I was the last time I did interviews:

"How much do you earn at your current position?"

"The salary of an academic at a public institution, and I expect to be paid
more if I work for your company."

~~~
tptacek
It's not really true that you can't disclose your salary after signing a
generic NDA, but it's a valid argument to say that it'd be discourteous to do
so.

------
pcestrada
I interviewed at a small company my friend worked at (he was highly placed so
his reference all but guaranteed the job). Sailed through the interview
process (standardized C/C++ programming test - ugh) until I met with the CEO.
He asked me what my salary was and I declined, stating that I wanted to hear
what salary range they had in mind for the position. The CEO became very
angry, claiming that in all his years no one had ever refused to disclose
their salary. Interview was ended promptly and I got an email a couple days
later saying they couldn't offer me the job.

I talked to my friend about it after and he was very surprised about what
happened. Everyone else on the team liked me but the CEO nixed the deal
claiming I was difficult. I think you need to be prepared for this kind of
reaction if you choose to not disclose your salary. Though in retrospect, I'm
glad I didn't end up taking the job. My friend left after a year after butting
heads too often with the CEO.

~~~
meterplech
Sounds like you saved yourself a lot of pain. A nice rule of thumb for jobs
can probably be- if you get axed from a job by doing something completely
rational like this you should never work at that company. You got to remember
once you get hired you have to work there.

------
alextingle
I've noticed a disturbing trend for some of the larger recruitment agencies in
London to insist on knowing your salary. They've refused to pass on my CV
without it. Worse, they claim it's the HR departments who are driving this,
but that's plainly false - I've asked several very senior HR people and
they've never heard of an HR department requiring current salary details along
with CVs.

I suspect that the agencies are aggressively trying to gather valuable salary
data, for their own purposes.

~~~
fendale
Last time I went for an interview I learned that you should not be honest
about your salary ... let me try to explain.

I am at a certain level in a big company with a salary range that is quite
large. Many people at my level earn £5000 - £7000 more than me, mainly because
they have been around in the company a lot longer.

In my last interview, I was offered a job and the company offered me my
current salary + about £5000 (I was honest about what I was earning when they
asked). Now, being that many of my collegues were currently earning that for
doing the same job as me, I always wondered if they would still have offered
me a £5000 bump if I had exaggerated my salary by £5k to start with.

I guess I will never know, and I didn't take that job for other reasons, but
the guy really wanted me to work there, and I got the impression that he was
trying to tempt me in with an offer that is just big enough compared to my
current salary, without really reflecting on my skills and what they were
worth.

I decided then that my salary would be exaggerated a little to any agencys or
interviewers who ask so I can try and negotiate a better deal, ethical or not.

~~~
lepton
Lying doesn't seem like the best way to start a new professional relationship.
Perhaps you could share your salary expectations instead.

~~~
fendale
Maybe correct. Ideally I'd like them to make me an offer based on what they
think I am worth, considering market rates etc.

However if they insist on me revealing my salary, I am going to assume its so
they have try and gauge how much it would take to make me jump to them, which
is (in my mind) on the same ethical level as my exaggerating my existing
salary to try and negotiate a better deal.

------
efsavage
I think there are a few edge cases where you can disclose your salary, like if
you're on the high end because you've been at a company for a long time, and
don't expect to get that much elsewhere, you can tell them, and also tell them
you're flexible.

However, if you're looking to move up, don't tell anyone. Let them give you a
number, and you can then choose to negotiate. If you're getting 110 now and
want to move to 120, but they offer 80, obviously this isn't a good fit, even
if they could be convinced to go higher.

When a recruiter calls you, demand two things before spending time on an
interview (even a phone one). Salary expecations, and details about the team,
like the manager's name, or the specific product, or something. This will weed
out the recruiters who just scan public job listings, and let you deal with
the ones who are actually doing their job and playing matchmaker. It will save
you a ton of time and stress.

~~~
hga
Ummm, for the high end case, it's more like "You can tell them and have them
not hire you because they fear you'll be dissatisfied at making less money".

~~~
efsavage
You might be surprised how many people out there have fooled themselves into
thinking their company is so great that people will work for them for a
discount.

“I don't pay good wages because I have a lot of money; I have a lot of money
because I pay good wages.” - Robert Bosch

------
c2
I find overall HR/recruiting at big organizations are totally out of hand
lately, not sure if they have always been. They ask a bunch of probing
personal questions, such as salary, if they offer you a job you have less then
24 hours to decide, even though the whole interview process took several
weeks, and the job might involve packing up and relocating across the country,
etc.

I've trained myself to start each conversation with the recruiter with the
following: I will not divulge my salary information, and I will need at least
14 days from the time I get the job offer to decide. If you are up front it
usually isn't a problem. Also it is best to get the hiring manager's contact
information so you can potentially go over the recruiter's head. At the end of
the day, the HM will care much more then the recruiter.

~~~
arethuza
I've found that recruiters often invent the "24 hours to decide" bit so that
they can force your hand and "close" the transaction.

I would never dream of forcing someone to make such an important decision in
such a short period of time.

~~~
wjy
I think you're right. They want to close the deal because they may have been
searching for a new hire for a while, and they can only field ONE offer at a
time. If you decline, they want to know as soon as possible so they can offer
to the next choice. If every offer takes two weeks to resolve, it could take a
month or two to make a hire AFTER a number of good candidates have come
through.

------
mavelikara
I relocated to US in 2007 after working in India for about 8 years. My best
friend also moved to US and we were both working in the same company in the
US. Once, while negotiating a raise, my friend brought up my salary since he
knew what I was making. The HR manager sent me a polite, but firm email asking
me never to discuss my salary with colleagues in the future. She painted it as
a cultural thing -- that in the US people don't discuss what they make. Since
then I have never disclosed my salary details to my colleague - the subject
never came up actually.

It is funny how it is totally uncool to discuss your salary with your
colleague, but you are expected to disclose it when asked by a stranger
working for a competitor.

~~~
ahi
Don't listen to HR. They are full of shit. It's not a cultural thing. It's in
HR's best interest so they just repeat it over and over again.

------
doppel
Is this common in the states? In Denmark, employers usually ask you what you
expect to be paid for the job you're interviewing for, but they never ask what
you are currently being paid. Ofcourse, you should always dodge the question
to let them give a number first and take it from there, but still, I've never
had anyone ask me specifically what I make at my current job.

~~~
roel_v
"Is this common in the states? In Denmark, ..."

If they don't now, they will in a few years. We had the same evolution here in
Belgium & the Netherlands, late 1990's or early 2000's recruiters wouldn't ask
overly let alone require it. Nowadays they try hard to get you to disclose. I
think one of the reasons is what is cited above, for the statistics for
internal use. In time they will get more sophisticated and they'll start
asking.

Aside, isn't there a website in Denmark where you can look up people's
salaries? Or is that in Sweden?

~~~
eitland
At least there is in Norway. (Try <http://skattelister.no/> )

~~~
roel_v
Oh yeah, sorry no offense to all parties involved, I tend to my you guys up ;)

------
space-monkey
My wife had this experience a while back when interviewing at a mid-tier
semiconductor company. She was asked to disclose her current salary and
refused. They became very insistent that the process could not continue until
she disclosed it, and that they had a company policy of not giving any new
hire more than a 10% bump. They ended up wanting to make her an offer anyway
(she turned them down), so it's certainly possible to refuse and not lose the
opportunity in some cases, even when they are very insistent.

I'm with everyone else that you don't want to work at a place so unreasonable
that they won't hire you for something like this. I assume that if you asked
them for a salary histogram for the position you're applying for, you'd get
laughed out of the building. Maybe it would be help to mention that.

~~~
Dylanlacey
I'm glad for her sake that she turned it down, since they make a policy of
never paying people what they're worth.

Never more then a 10% bump? That's just farcical. Are they afraid the sudden
increase will lead to wild debauchery? _{Rolls eyes}_

------
palewery
In my experience these steps have helped me get a higher salary.

1\. Say your current salary is 20% higher than it actually is when
interviewing.

2\. Once you get a job offer say you are very interested in the position you
just need $5k more to accept this position today . If they say no the 1st
offer will still stand.

3\. When yearly reviews come around, act grateful but slightly disappointed in
the raise (unless it is HUGE).

If you feel these are dishonest that is fine, but the reality is that most
companies will take advantage of you if you don't look out for yourself.

For example, If you interview for a position where the industry average is 60k
and you say the range you are looking for is 45-75k. Your offer will be very
close to 45k. Even though the company knows 60 is the industry average.

------
Uchikoma
I never tell my current salary in job interviews, you can only lose. And I
never request this information.

------
vilya
It's always seemed a little odd to me that there is such a culture of secrecy
around salaries. It seems so counter-productive: it means that salary doesn't
really reflect competence, effectiveness or anything else related to the work
someone is doing - it just reflects someone's ability to negotiate well in an
interview. I think that's a shame.

~~~
Dylanlacey
There's a culture of secrecy because it's in companies best interests to
encourage one.

------
robryan
Wouldn't it be great if companies could just come out with a figure they
thought you were worth to them, not how little they could get away with or
anchored on what you were worth to your previous employer.

I have noticed a stigma, admittedly on low/no skilled jobs, of people asking
for salary details as part of the interview process then accepting jobs
without even knowing pay rate. Does this happen at all in software, I guess
with new graduates some companies would give off the "we're doing you a favor
in hiring you at all" vibe.

------
radioactive21
I asked someone for advice on whether or not I should tell my salary if asked
during a interview or by a recruiter over the phone. My friend said, tell
them. Big mistake.

It was early on my career so I was making 40K. I applied for a job that I
could do with my eyes closed. I aced the interview with flying colors. Then I
got a call a day after the interview from HR and the first question was "May I
ask what your current salary is?" I told them. Now before I say anything
someone from within the company recommended me. He told me that the average
for that position and title for the company is 55-65K.

The HR person low balled me at 45K. We talked and the highest she was willing
to go was 48K, she would NOT budge above that. I did the standard, let me
think about it and I'll get back to you. Called her back a few days later,
with my case and she still would not budge, so I turned it down.

Don't mistaken, until they give you the offer and you are filling out HR
forms, do not tell them your salary, that doesn't mean lie just tell them you
dont want to reveal it. One of the things I have done is give them a range if
they are really pushy, usually a huge range just to make a point that I dont
want to reveal it.

------
narag
Time ago, I remember being offered the same salary I had, or even less. They
(it happened more than once) must have thought I was lying. Those interviews
were very brief. Once trust is broken, there's nothing they could do to
restore it.

~~~
berntb
It really was for an equal job at a comparable company?

I might apply for some more interesting jobs for a lower salary. Especially if
I changed job area to something I didn't really know that well.

If I stop being a consultant, I'd probably be paid a bit less.

~~~
narag
Worse. Similar job in a not so prestigious company. I would also take a cut
(not now, I just can't earn less) to get a more interesting job. But that
wasn't the case.

------
yason
Sounds like someone wants to get both goods of an issue. They wish to know
your salary so that they can minimize the offer they give you. On the other
hand, afterwards they firmly demand that you won't tell your colleagues what
your salary is.

As long as I don't know what they pay to their employees (and thus have no
reference point for negotiations) I certainly wouldn't give them my salary
(and give them a nice reference point). It's an open negotiation situation,
then. I have a hard limit below which I won't accept and some soft limit that
I expect from the company. They have theirs. Then it's bracketing down until
both are happy or the deal blows up.

~~~
epynonymous
though compensation is not necessarily the main thing that retains an
employee, it is important. for that matter, any good hr clown will know that a
compensation satisfied* employee is going to be a longer term, happy employee.
why try to stiff someone out of a few potential ten's of thousand just to make
the books look better?

noted that no one's really ever satisfied with their compensation, but the
point being that it's not hanging over your head daily that the work you do is
not commensurate with what they pay you relative to others.

------
elblanco
Some dishonest advice about this - Give them false data to boost your own
negotiation. If the perceived delta between your old salary and the new one
your are asking for doesn't seem unreasonable, then you can likely get it.

~~~
cmars232
Or, just factor in performance bonus programs, unvested stock, other benefits,
merit raise schedules, etc. Estimate optimistically.

------
alatkins
This is a pet peeve of mine. So often it seem to be one of the very first
questions asked, it basically seems to be de rigueur these days (and I can
understand why potential employers do it, from a negotiation standpoint). It's
not that I think you should try to inflate your current salary or mislead in
any way, but it just seems so forward and plain impolite.

I'd be interested in any real-life experiences others might have had similar
to this and whether you've managed to avoid coming off as
sneaky/deceptive/dishonest as a result.

------
highlander
I will disclose my total compensation (but not my salary) to competent
recruiters/headhunters from good companies. The reason I disclose total comp
is that it enables a like-for-like comparison. Now, because these recruiters
know my current package, they will only contact me about substantially larger
opportunities. I think this is a win-win. Based on my experience so far, I
don't think that disclosing my total comp necessarily 'anchors' the package
for the new role.

------
edw519
Actually, this is very simple:

Me: I insist on maintaining certain personal requirements when conducting any
business. One of those requirements happens to be never revealing salary data.

Them: Not willing or able to respect my personal requirements.

Me: Goodbye.

------
ecuzzillo
Somebody enlighten me: in this day and age, with, you know, the Internet, why
do recruiters exist at all? Why don't people just go up to companies and ask
for jobs? Why don't companies go out and try to find people themselves? It
seems like the results would be completely guaranteed to be better.

------
synnik
I have no problem telling my salary, and getting screened out for it. My
salary is in the upper range for my position already, so I prefer to be
screened out vs. wasting my time in interviews for a position on which we
never could have reached an agreement.

Also, your initial salary at a company is just a starting point. If you come
in low, then prove your worth, you will get decent raises.

On the other hand, if you negotiate your way to a high salary, and fail to
perform, you are first against the wall when the revolution comes.

------
epynonymous
for the record, i've always disclosed my salary information directly when
asked during the offer phase, this was in america. i agree with mr. sethi that
this information should include all benefits, that's actually sage advice,
stock options, gym benefits, that should all be factored in or else you're
selling yourself short.

in china it seems that HR and headhunters really want to know about your
salary information even before you're offered an interview, perhaps this is to
save everybody time if say your expectations are widely over the range.

hr for each company typically gets a benchmark against other companies for a
certain position, this offers them a range, high, low, average. the question
really becomes where they place you in that range, if you tell them what
you're currently making, they'll probably just throw you a standard overage on
top of your current and make sure it fits the range. if you don't tell them
what you're currently making, they'll just try to guess where to put you in
that range, if the hiring manager really wants you then you're probably in
luck, this also has advantages if you're relatively certain that you're
underpaid as you could see increases well over your current salary + overage.

either way, i don't believe in lying about your salary even though you know
they probably have no way to check.

------
justinph
In my current and previous job, it was never brought up, but it was revealed
in the background check done by HR. They found out either way.

~~~
the_dude
This is something I've dealt with as well. My usual strategy, when asked, is
to ask what the employer plans on offering and if they push to see what I was
making before I'll give them a ballpark figure of what I'd like to be making
in the new position (usually what I was making before +10-20%). I've found
that in the US in certain industries (such as finance) this question is almost
always asked and if you refuse to answer, they'll just find out in the
background check and will revoke the offer if they find too much of a
disparity in the numbers. I've always been told it's better to be honest about
it up front than to have them find out after the background check that you've
exaggerated your numbers.

------
hartror
Wow Ramit must be happy with that piece, it is like NYT reposted one of his
blog posts verbatim! Ramit has some great tips, his general message seems to
be get off your lazy ass a do something about your finances!

------
mbowcock
This topic seems to be a theme today - [http://raganwald.posterous.com/on-the-
subject-of-disclosing-...](http://raganwald.posterous.com/on-the-subject-of-
disclosing-your-compensatio)

------
crististm
So it's ok to reveal your salary if he insists _three_ times? :)

~~~
Uchikoma
Sorry I only could upvote you once :-) #classic

------
sagarun
IMHO, It is OK to disclose your current salary once you get selected in the
interview.

~~~
raganwald
I think it's in your best interests to avoid disclosing it if you can do so
without losing the opportunity. However once you've been selected and the
company is negotiating an offer, disclosing your compensation to the employer
(and not a recruiter) isn't so bad.

The two worst cases are that you lose the offer (because you're too expensive
or too cheap) or get a low offer (because they are willing to pay more but
decide to base their offer on your previous compensation). If you go your
separate ways, you are free to start the negotiation process all over again
with another employer.

Disclosing your compensation to a recruiter is an absolute no. You are
instantly and immediately disclosing your compensation to every employer, for
all time.

