
Ask HN: What would make you want to work for a non-profit as an engineer? - francamps
I am the tech lead at a London-based non-profit agency in human rights abuse, conflicts and the effects of war. We are producing complex visual tools for analysis and documentation of high-profile cases. I am personally really excited and happy to be working for the agency. The team is growing and I am looking to hire devs in the next few months, but we can&#x27;t pay anywhere near what tech companies pay or offer benefits like they do. I can offer the team enthusiasm and the reality of what we are accomplishing (which is why I&#x27;m there).<p>How can I convince talented engineers that this kind of work is important and worth doing?
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dfansteel
I've worked for non-profits before and have loved the experience. A couple of
things stand out for me:

1) Remote Work & Flex Schedule - Quality of life is a major concern. Working
in startups 100 hour weeks have happened. It's kind of a rush actually. But
everyone needs to take some time off that. Allowing people the opportunity to
work from wherever they want, whenever they want makes all the difference. A
common miss of non-profit managers is adopting the idea that you need to be on
the job from 9-5 and be seen being productive. Don't treat your devs like
they're cashiers.

2) Community Engagement - Mid-sized companies and startups tend to be wildly
jealous about their employees time, often requiring employees to work in a
vacuum. Let your devs publish open source software that's derivative of your
core business. Support their desire to establish development blogs. Encourage
their extra curricular activities. I've often taken second jobs teaching
software development just because I enjoy it. A lot of for profit companies
don't like that.

3) Intrinsic Benefits - Be willing to hire off platform. Look for people
interested in expanding their skill set. The mobile developer looking to learn
web development. The web developer looking to learn API development. The boot
camp graduate looking for their first job in the field. Find people who can
figure out how to do the job. Have the practical experience make up for the
lost direct income.

~~~
francamps
Thanks a lot, these are really great suggestions to look into. I think 1 (the
flex schedule part at least) and 3 are already there, but I hadn't thought
about highlighting them as properties of the job that people might be
interested in. And we need to consider remote work more seriously.

I've been planning to encourage 2 more in the tech side of things, considering
it is already happening in relation to the social impact of our work, which we
do share and communicate. I think sharing more of what we do technically would
be great.

Thanks a lot, great advice.

~~~
ffggvv
What's the name of the non-profit? So maybe people from here could apply.

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jasonkester
While it's always nice to know your work benefits the world in general, the
market is the market, so you'll need to pay for labor whether your company
intends to make a profit or not.

So yeah, we're all happy to help. But please strike that sentence about not
wanting to pay a market rate.

~~~
karmajunkie
I didn't read a sentence about not wanting to pay a market rate. I read that
they were not _able_ to pay a market rate, and yet there is still a need for
the work. If that doesn't speak to you, I don't blame you, but its
disingenuous to make out like its merely a choice as to whether they have the
funds available.

~~~
jasonkester
A non-profit has a budget for hiring, just as a scrappy startup has a budget
for hiring, just as Facebook has a budget for hiring. The first two may try to
spin a story about how they need to spread that budget farther because of
$narrative, but really all they're doing is trying to pay you less money for
your work.

Notice how they're not _" not able"_ to pay market rate for things like power,
rent, office furniture, and phone service to the building. Those things are
only different from developer talent in that they are not willing to negotiate
their rate down because of a story.

Developers should take a page from their book.

~~~
ajamesm
I worked at a non-profit that paid pennies on the dollar for their office
space, specifically because the building's owner believed in their mission. If
they had to pay the full price they probably wouldn't operate.

Do you not know what philanthropy is? Some people conceive of morality outside
raw market forces.

------
sharemywin
Might want to consider remote.

Being in one of the top 20 most expensive cities in the world probably doesn't
help.

[http://www.businessinsider.com/the-19-most-expensive-
cities-...](http://www.businessinsider.com/the-19-most-expensive-cities-in-
the-world-2016-6/#18-guangzhou-china--the-first-of-a-few-chinese-cities-on-
the-list-guangzhou-drops-three-places-from-last-year-thanks-to-a-weakening-
yuan-against-the-dollar-2)

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phaus
Not a software engineer, but my perspective might be useful.

My current job contributes positively to society, but I would love to have a
job like this. Long ago, I joined the military because I naively thought we
could help put a stop to human rights abuses around the world (too young and
stupid at the time to realize we were only going to make things worse). So,
this would be something of a dream job for me. I would even do it for a
compensation package that's slightly below market rate. However, I couldn't
justify either to myself or my family, financially crippling the rest of my
life by taking a job significantly below market rate with little or no
benefits. If I could do it all over gain, if I were young and single I would
much rather have spent my military years working for an organization like
yours. However, I have too many responsibilities at this point.

On a positive note, I think if you found a way to establish some kind of a
part-time volunteer effort, many people would be willing to help for free. It
might be difficult to manage, but I think it could work. I'd even be
interested in volunteering at least a few hours a week (although my coding
skills are approximately at the level of an intern.)

~~~
Osmium
> My current job contributes positively to society, but I would love to have a
> job like this.

Seconded. You [the OP] don't give numbers in your post, but I would jump at a
job like this. Having lived in London for several years, whatever wage you're
offering would have to be at least _liveable_ , but I (personally) would
happily accept significantly less than a big tech company knowing that the
work was important and impactful in a very real sense, and suspect many other
people would also. Honestly, if I were still in London, I would love to apply
for this: "complex visual tools for analysis" sounds just like my sort of
thing.

To make this advice more actionable: perhaps you're best looking for
academics/PhDs with programming experience, since they tend to be both more
idealistic and accustomed to lower pay (this is a little cynical but sadly
true, having come from this background myself). There is huge variability in
programming ability amongst PhDs however (again, speaking from first-hand
experience), but on the plus side many will have the other skills you need
(knowing how to effectively distill and visualise complex information is often
at the very heart of a good science PhD).

~~~
francamps
Thanks a lot for your advice, this is great. Former academics / PhDs are good
pool of people with wonderful skills (I didn't finish my own PhD, but I know
the environment). Some PhDs might hopefully also be more attuned to the social
problems like the ones we are looking into, so we will definitely be
considering that.

The challenge we could have is more on looking for usability and frontend
expertise, considering the type of tools we want to build, and these are not
necessarily in the programming skillset you grow during a PhD (generally more
about data analysis / engineering, but of course it depends on the line of
work).

Anyways, thanks for the suggesting though.

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cguess
As a software engineer who has done a lot of non-profit work, try and engage
your engineers with the community of other "do gooders" out there. Take them
to the conferences and include them in the meetings that talk about the policy
of the organization, future plans and the like. If they're working for you,
it's probably because they care about the cause too.

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lithos
Right now I'm actually taking a pretty decent pay cut of what I could be
getting. The things that got me:

Very flexible hours for normal work periods (could choose to not wake up to an
alarm 3 weeks out of 4)

Relaxed interviewing process. (Though a lot of the testing for electrical,
mechanical, fluid, and trouble shooting theory actually works. Haven't seen
the same for IT stuff). got to actually see my bosses quickly in the process.
And got to see what gear I would be working on before they knew I was sure.

Still get a lot of data center experience without the idiocy of working for
the big three Or IT first company.

Got to work in a department of the company that was a profit generating part
of the company (instead of costs generation). This affect everything for how a
company interacts with an employee.

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NetStrikeForce
Maybe you need to approach the problem differently: Your problem is not hiring
people, your problem is getting your projects done.

How open are your processes? Can I go somewhere on the Internet and access
your data? Do you have a public list of your projects on a place like GitHub
so I can contribute? Have you considered a bounty for those less attractive
tasks?

I think you can attract the best talent, but you don't need it full time, so
why hire anyone? Make it easy to contribute, make it socially rewarding and
maybe even throw some money at it.

Or maybe I'm just completely wrong - but I hope you can give these ideas at
least a quick thought! :)

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reallymental
As a (relatively young) software engineer who freelances as well, I personally
like what you have to offer.

Needless to say YMMV but keeping that aside, if the wage you're offering is
liveable for London (around £28,000-32,000 before taxes) and your work hours
are reasonable enough for the person to freelance (outside work hours for any
surplus £'s)... he/she who shares your passion would leap at your opportunity.

The most weighted variable in that case, would be the level of expertise
you're seeking.

Good Luck!

(I also noticed that --Osmium-- has a point with PhD's being good candidates,
but again, most of them leave academia in search of greater pay. But please
dont let that deter you, as almost equally they are attracted to making an
impact with their work.)

~~~
francamps
Thank you! We are paying a liveable wage for London and are pretty flexible on
many fronts, and the satisfaction and passion for the work we do covers the
rest of it (at least for me).

I am confident there are people who find the combination reasonable and think
similarly, so hopefully we'll be able work that out.

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aynsof
I did exactly this a few years back. I took a pay cut to around 30% of my
previous salary to work for a health care sector non-profit. The main
attractions were flexible work hours (including some work from home), being
fed up with working for evil corporations, and the prospect of working with
the two really smart people I met in my interview.

I think if you could offer a realistic shot at helping the community combined
with a positive culture, you might be able to pull some talented engineers
from more lucrative industries. Good luck!

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mrmondo
I'm ops lead at a non-profit. I took _huge_ pay cut when I moved from the
private / government sector to NFP space but I'll tell you what - it was worth
every dollar. You can't put a price on happiness, freedom and the value of the
visibility of the impact to communities and disadvantaged / at risk people
from them work you do. Do a good job with a real impact and work with (not
for) an organisation that genuinely strives to make an impact and is
transparent and you'll earn respect.

~~~
StavrosK
Did you mean "communities", or are Communists really that hard up in the
states?

~~~
mrmondo
Hahaha I most definitely meant communities, thank you for pointing that out!
Damn autocorrect...

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1_listerine_pls
\- remote volunteer jobs (for fresh international US CS grads).

I have a work permit in the US but I am not interested in getting a full-time
job. In order not to lose the permit I need to do remote volunteering job
20h/week at a non-profit. So, I was considering contributing to Mozilla but
they don't provide any proof you are doing volunteer work with them.

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Taylor_OD
I'm interested in working for a non profit in the future and I expect to take
a pay cut. I justify it by thinking of the good the org will be doing and
other benefits likes more PTO, remote work, flexible schedule.

My ideal is working for a non profit in a developing country and being able to
live there. Even a modest salary would go a lot further.

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rwhitman
Personally I would love to work with non-profits right now, regardless of pay
implications. Recent macro events have really awoken my desire to do good in
the course of my work. I'd like to think there are others with a similar
outlook right now, but maybe I'm an outlier in this industry...

~~~
pug_compiler
I feel much the same; in part I'm starting to feel like that because what I'd
hoped would be a great tool for breaking down barriers and communication just
seems to have accelerated our consumption and been coopted for things like ads
and propoganda.

Part of the problem I think is some/a lot of people (that might otherwise
entertain a more ethical career choice) have mortgages/family and don't have
the luxury to take a pay hit to work for a NPO.

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gnocchi
I'd be happy to discuss, feel free to contact me. My contact detail is on my
profile.

Other than that I think as phaus just said, the fact to contribute positively
to society is a big argument. If your company can't deliver on cash advantage,
maybe remote work and social event shoudl be push forward.

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roystonvassey
OP, I don't think you should go out of your way to convince anyone. Engineers
who are keen to try something different will do so, irrespective of your
coaxing/positioning.

Just post on the jobs thread once you are ready to hire and I think you should
be good.

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JamesBarney
I would suggest offering part-time work. Any time someone on hacker news posts
about working a 24-32hr week there are always plenty of people begging the
poster to tell them how they did it.

Also all the things all developer wants in a job like flexibility, autonomy
etc...

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noshbrinken
Sponsoring visa's for foreign devs would be a huge incentive, I think. Many
people would like to live/work in a foreign country but find it
hard/impossible to do so without an employer sponsoring their visa.

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debacle
When I was at a non-profit ~10 years ago, the salaries were ~30% below market,
but employees regularly had 8+ weeks of vacation time. I think after 5 years
there I had built up 5 weeks a year, and employees topped out at ~55 days of
vacation a year.

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seattle_spring
> but we can't pay anywhere near what tech companies pay or offer benefits
> like they do

Why not? CEOs of non-profits often make competitive wages. Why shouldn't the
worker bees?

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downlode
I do front-end development and I'd be interested to chat with you about this.
Please contact me via my profile if you're interested.

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_throwaway2017_
Shouldn't any charity be based on ethics, part of which is paying honest
competitive market salary? Underpaying idealistic developers is a form of
abuse.

