
UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay - anoplus
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/02/29/us/university-california-santa-cruz-strike-grad-students/index.html
======
daly
I lived on 54 cent pancakes covered in free butter and honey, 9 cents per can
baked beans (turns out I don't like baked beans, I like good sauce which this
was not), and candy bars out of a broken and never fixed candy machine. I
don't recommend it. I weighed 110 pounds by the time I left. All of my money
went to dorm housing (paid to the school).

Later when I was a researcher I found out that the Provost takes 55% of grant
money "for overhead like printer paper". If there is money involved, there are
plenty of plenty of people willing to "take their cut" before it ever gets to
the researcher or student.

If you can't afford to pay grad students enough to keep body and soul
together, don't open the grad student slots.

~~~
gist
Why do you (and others) think that education and academia is somehow special
and not the same as, say, acting (or any career) where people regularly earn
no money and work bad 2nd jobs just to survive and do something they love or
want as a career? In a free market system nobody is telling you to choose that
career and a University and (typically) a non-profit doesn't have any
particular incentive to not act in their own self interest in order to self
perpetuate themselves.

Also I am sure the janitor at the University is paid decently and loves to
work there. Reason is there are not as many people lined up for that job and
basic economics takes over.

~~~
rumanator
Unfortunately a PhD is sold as a key step for a well-paying and fulfilling
career where you can make a difference. As we live in a society where
education is fundamental to success and having a good life, a PhD is
considered as the last and most exclusive step in a promising career path.

But then the disappointing part is that the system in place is designed to
exploit newcomers and place them in an abuse relationship where they are
forced to go through the ringer as indentured servants hoping that their
ultimate goal is just around the corner.

You may quote simplistic cliches regarding economy and career choices, but the
truth of the matter is that the grad school system is designed to be a
monopoly where grad students have absolutely no power or influence over their
career other than quitting, which ultimately results in total and definite
exclusion from the industry, and thus are forced to endure years of indentured
servitude. As a grad student you don't have the freedom to switch schools,
negotiate your salary, or even be recognized as an employee.

This example demonstrates the absolute lack of power or influence that grad
students have: if you disagree with your supervisor then say goodbye to your
whole career.

~~~
chrisseaton
But you don’t have to work for the university while you do your PhD if you
don’t want to. I didn’t - I worked for a company instead. Maybe if the
university had paid more I’d have worked for it instead.

~~~
hervature
PhD in Europe is different than in the US. There's is very little industry-
academia support in terms of working while doing your PhD.

From Princeton's policies, particularly the last sentence:

"Graduate study at Princeton, at both the doctoral and, in most cases, the
master’s level, requires full-time commitment to study and research on the
part of students. The Graduate School’s financial support structure, which
extends throughout the length of the student’s program and ordinarily includes
summers, is one indication of that requirement. Accordingly, the Graduate
School considers employment beyond full fellowship, teaching or research
support or its equivalent to be incompatible with full-time graduate
study."[0]

It's even worse for international students. Under F1 visa, you can't work more
than 20 hours on campus. However, all TA positions are deemed 20 hours of
work. So you can't even work at the campus gym if you want.

[0] -
[https://gradschool.princeton.edu/policies/employment](https://gradschool.princeton.edu/policies/employment)

~~~
roel_v
You're talking about having a side job while doing a PhD. GP is talking about
(as I understand it - not to put words in their mouth) having a job that will
let you take some of the work you do there and turn it into a PhD. Which,
admittedly, is not a very well-known or advertised route, but one that is a
much better deal than the 'take internship-level pay for years for the
privilege of being exploited or ignored'.

~~~
hervature
No, I am also talking about the same thing. But you correctly distinguish
Europe vs. US. To make progress towards your PhD while working for company in
the US, you typically need to be enrolled in a department approved "class"
that is basically an internship. To be enrolled in these classes, you need to
be a full-time student. Most departments outside of CS and EE don't allow for
these courses. Obviously, this is going to be highly nuanced with regard to
how each university/department implements it. For example, my department only
allows summer internships and requires approval from Advisor and Director of
Graduate Studies.

------
majos
There are about 1800 UCSC graduate students [1]. From this 2014-15 UCSC budget
report [2] there is a very near 2:1 masters:phd graduation ratio. Assuming
there are 2 years of masters students and 6 of PhD at any one time, that makes
PhD students 60% of “graduate students”. Let’s make this easy by saying 1000
PhD students (if anything I imagine it’s way less than this — as I understand,
monetizing masters students has been an increasing trend in American
universities). The UCSC grad student union says average pay for the year is
about 22k [3] (edit: this appears to be a minimum, not average, wage).

The strikers want 1.4k more per month. With the current 9 month payment
system, that’s about 13k more per PhD student per year. So 1k*13k = 13mil
overall to put this problem to bed.

That seems...surprisingly little? Aggravating a big chunk of your on-the-
ground workers and attracting all this bad press doesn’t seem worth it.
Meanwhile, there appear to be a whole lot of UCSC administrators making
comfortable six figures [4].

I get that a lot of people on HN probably see the current low wages as a
natural function of supply and demand in different academic disciplines. But
heck, just looking at this from the point of view of the university, which is
allocating resources to fight this, the calculus is odd.

[1] [https://www.ucsc.edu/about/facts-
figures.html](https://www.ucsc.edu/about/facts-figures.html)

[2] [https://planning.ucsc.edu/budget/reports-overviews/pdfs-
imag...](https://planning.ucsc.edu/budget/reports-overviews/pdfs-
images/profile2015.pdf)

[3]
[https://gsa.ucsc.edu/things_to_know/funding](https://gsa.ucsc.edu/things_to_know/funding)

[4] [https://ucannualwage.ucop.edu/wage/](https://ucannualwage.ucop.edu/wage/)

~~~
wutbrodo
> I get that a lot of people on HN probably see the current low wages as a
> natural function of supply and demand in different academic disciplines. But
> heck, just looking at this from the point of view of the university, which
> is allocating resources to fight this, the calculus is odd.

Note that I'm not making any _moral or normative claims_ about not striking vs
striking vs wildcat striking, nor about the interplay of rights and
obligations between individual workers, unions, and employers. I'm speaking
purely strategically here, in the same frame as your comment.

You're only looking at first-order dynamics here, while second-order ones are
often in play. In this case, the 54 students weren't just striking, they were
wildcat-striking: striking in defiance of not just the university they work
for, but the union that represents them, who had already agreed to a contract
with the university.

When the union has already agreed to, ratified, and entered into a contract,
capitulating to a wildcat strike a couple of years later is a significant
departure from even relatively pro-labor norms. Again, from a purely strategic
perspective, the costs of this specific incident are potentially a lot less
significant than the future costs of the university signaling that they're
okay with contracts becoming meaningless if the other party changes their mind
in the middle of the term.

~~~
kova12
Which just underlies the problem with unions: not only they are compulsory
institutions that force you into their ranks whether you want it or not, but
even those who join them don't get a fair representation and have to strike on
their own.

~~~
wahern
Compulsory union membership has been illegal since the 1947 Taft-Hartey Act.
Compulsory legal representation fees for public sector unions have been
illegal since Janus v. AFSCME (2018).

Just like in a democracy, not everybody's interests can be fully satisfied in
a union. So what? That doesn't necessarily mean we'd all be better off with
autocracy or without any government whatsoever, not even the people getting
the short end of the stick.

The fundamental problem in Santa Cruz, like many other universities in the
state, is the cost of housing. UC Santa Cruz didn't build enough housing. Part
of the problem is that most of UCSC's land is wildlife refuge, and part of the
problem (like everywhere else in California) is the political and regulatory
difficulty of building new housing. The cost of housing has been increasing
far faster than UCSC's budget.

~~~
SpicyLemonZest
Unions still have many monopolistic legal rights. For example, one obvious
question is why UCSC students can’t form their own union and get their own
contract; the answer is that it would be illegal, because if there’s a duly
authorized union employers can’t collectively bargain with any other group.

~~~
TrinaryWorksToo
Why couldn't people call a new vote for the new union?

~~~
SpicyLemonZest
That would also be illegal right now, since it hasn't been 3 years since the
union contract was signed.

ref: [https://www.nlrb.gov/rights-we-protect/whats-
law/employees/i...](https://www.nlrb.gov/rights-we-protect/whats-
law/employees/i-am-represented-union/decertification-election)

------
valid4life
I'm an undergrad at UCSC right now and have found the entire strike to be more
detrimental to their cause. They've lost so much undergrad support after
disrupting a STEM midterm and shutting down campus causing us to miss the
classes we have paid for. I even lost my grades last quarter as my TA was
fired ( of the 54 ) and he has refused to hand them over post firing. What it
has done to the undergraduates is a little ridiculous and I felt for them in
the beginning, but the strike has made me be a supporter against them
unfortunately.

~~~
anonsivalley652
Striking when it's convenient is worthless. Perhaps if the students weren't so
entitled, they'd understand that solidarity is important and that grades
should be handled. Furthermore, you have to realize the university is
punishing you to turn you against the grad students... and it appears they
have succeeded. If I were an ugrad there, I'd be right there with the grad
students.

I was an ugrad at another UC where 2/3 of my classes were cancelled because
lecturers got jobs at startups in the dotcom times, and they made a habit of
not scheduling upper-div major classes frequently enough to stay full-time for
the year. haha.

~~~
valid4life
I agree that striking when its convenient is worthless, but at the same time,
I have various emails from my direct TAs and the COLA organization as a whole
mentioning the intent is to not harm undergrads, but here we are...
Additionally, I'm not sure where youre getting the students are "entitled". I
work and take loans out in order to go to this school, takes classes, and
receive my grades. Am I entitled for wanting what I pay for?

The administration is not withholding grades, the graduates are. I understand
that they're doing it as a result of the administration, but why are we
(undergraduates) sitting in the middle taking heat from both sides?

I'm happy you would be out there striking as thats your right, but to call me
entitled is a tad bit much no? The response on the UCSC subreddit is similar -
youre either entitled or a bootlicker if you don't join the cause. I am unsure
how that is supposed to make me support the cause?

~~~
detaro
> _The administration is not withholding grades_

It clearly has the resources to provide you with your grades, it's not like
the specific grad students are the only ones being able to grade random
undergrad work. It appears it's failing to provide the service you pay it for.

~~~
valid4life
You're absolutely right in that they have the resources to get these graded.
Another comment I posted down below describes my grade situation and how I've
been asked to help grade (for pay). I imagine in six months time I'll have my
grades, but the wait is absolutely wrong. Other students are attempting to
graduate, but their requirements are not met because of withheld grades by
their TAs. Can they afford another quarter or two while the UC gathers new
graders? Who knows.

~~~
asdff
The university is preventing people from graduating, not the TAs. The
university could have professors grade their own exams. The university could
hire undergraduates like you to grade exams. The university could also let
anyone graduate that they want, the university is the body that enforces these
requirements, not the TAs. They could send a memo tomorrow saying they would
aggregate your other grades, or let you graduate provisionally, or waive
whatever requirement the university itself has put in place, but they aren't
because by not doing so they turn undergraduates like you against graduates.
And from the looks of your comments they have succeeded.

~~~
saagarjha
And this is exactly what my professor has done in response to the graduate
student strikes: she is some grading assignments herself and has dropped ones
that she no longer has time for. I will probably receive my grades on time,
and if I don’t I’m going to be a lot more annoyed at the university for not
working something out than I will be at my TA (who has already submitted
grades for assignments due before the strike).

------
csomar
I think this is a wake-up call for these grad students of how the real world
works.

> Instead of firing TAs who are standing up for a decent standard of living
> for themselves, UC must sit down at the bargaining table and negotiate a
> cost of living increase.

Sitting at the negotiations table where you hold none of the cards means you
are not getting the pay increase you are asking for. Striking is for workers
who know they hold some cards and the other party is not listening.

Striking without any card means you are going to get fired; which just
happened here.

~~~
csb6
I also think it is a good introduction to the real world, but for a different
reason: it shows that workers are treated as disposable goods that employers
can and will throw away whenever they become too much of a hassle or ask for
compensation that reflects the value they bring to the organization.
Universities are no different to businesses in this respect; the success of
colleges depends on the grunt work of grad students and professors not on the
tenure track. Universities will openly deny sane living conditions to these
people, and fire them for asking for enough to pay their rents. The way
workers in this country are treated is god-awful, and I'm saddened by the
people in this thread who are cheering the firing of these students.

~~~
csomar
> The way workers in this country are treated is god-awful, and I'm saddened
> by the people in this thread who are cheering the firing of these students.

I'm not cheering their firing. I'm just explaining why their strike did not
work out as they wished.

> ask for compensation that reflects the value they bring to the organization

That's not how it works in the real world. You get paid by market rate; which
means if there is someone else accepting a pay cut, you'll get fired and
replaced.

> Universities are no different to businesses in this respect

Universities are a competitive business, too; and students pay high tuition
fees. If the universities are out-competed, they can lose business/students.
It's turtles all the way down.

~~~
csb6
> That's not how it works in the real world. You get paid by market rate;
> which means if there is someone else accepting a pay cut, you'll get fired
> and replaced.

I agree, that's true. It's almost as if this is an unjust system that devolves
into a race to the bottom and inevitable exploitation of workers. And that in
the real world, anyone who tries to fight against this system ends up screwed
by their employers.

I'm glad we could agree on the exploitation inherent to the labor market.

~~~
allovernow
The vast majority of people in the "labor market" are making livable wages.
This is not the "unjust system" that a minority at the bottom are complaining
about. In any case this "exploitation" is temporary for these student teachers
and most importantly as others have pointed out, most of these students are
foreign workers and personally I think it's a little exploitive for them to
_demand_ entitlements while harming the school to get their way - if it really
is so bad no one is forcing them to study here.

~~~
anigbrowl
[Unprintable]

------
acdha
I feel like these stories should mention the compensation for the people
attacking graduate students for demanding a living wage. Someone making well
into 6 figures really doesn’t have a good basis for summarily dismissing that
need:

[https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/2018/university-o...](https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/2018/university-
of-california/janet-napolitano/)

~~~
nostrebored
Why should they expect a living wage for sub-demand fields of research? Why do
my choices to achieve financial stability override my experience prior to
that? When you're from a poor family the decisions that these striking
students are making are befuddling.

~~~
throwqwerty
because they perform a service. they teach classes. that's literally what they
were withholding - grades for classes they TA. so there is plenty of demand
for that service. it has nothing to do with the labor market after they
graduate. god some people just fall all over themselves to be smug.

~~~
nostrebored
If you want to have an actual conversation, I'm happy to. If not, let me know
so I don't waste my time.

They do perform a service, sometimes teaching classes, sometimes grading
papers, sometimes assisting with office hours. They get paid $2400/mo, putting
them above median salary for full-time TAs.

Nobody is forcing them to go to graduate school in California and accept this
job. This isn't something that they were coerced into.

The fact of the matter is that research is still a demand driven field. This
is why you'll see stipends and grants to assist students in higher demand
fields, like computer science.

When I was in school a few years ago, everyone knew that if they were not
receiving a grant, they were going to be paying for their education. This
isn't a surprise, and if they are willing to make the decision to fund their
further education, that is something they should be able to do.

~~~
throwqwerty
>Nobody is forcing them to go to graduate school in California and accept this
job. This isn't something that they were coerced into.

What is the significance of this point when literally no one is forced or
coerced except for slaves? By this token absolutely no one should be striking
for higher wages - they should all go work somewhere else. Oh wait...

>They do perform a service, sometimes teaching classes, sometimes grading
papers, sometimes assisting with office hours. They get paid $2400/mo, putting
them above median salary for full-time TAs.

Medían where? The entire United States? California? Santa Cruz? And exactly
why is that relevant anyway? It's quite possible that the median wage isn't
enough! And this would be part of the process for raising it.

>The fact of the matter is that research is still a demand driven field. This
is why you'll see stipends and grants to assist students in higher demand
fields, like computer science.

When you look at the average salary of a tenured UC professor (the kind that
takes on grad students) and the average salary of appointed administrators
(deans, provosts, etc) it's very hard to believe that the issue is lack of
money and not allocation.

I also have no idea what cs/stem has to do with this. Most stem PhDs don't get
more money either (most do not have fellowships nor their own grants).

------
hedora
Hopefully the strike will now spread to other UC campuses.

The back story here is that United Auto Workers (the UC grad students’ union)
negotiated an unacceptable contract, and despite many months of pushback from
the students, and despite UCSC voting against it, the union ratified it anyway
(including a no-strike clause).

Also, the faculty of UCSC voted against the firings.

~~~
chrisseaton
> United Auto Workers (the UC grad students’ union)

Why are they represented by such a completely unrelated union?

~~~
hedora
There’s no clear path to replacing UAW. They somehow got in control of union
representation for the entire UC system.

The US is a closed shop country, so it is illegal for students to simply
cancel their membership in UAW and join a graduate student workers union.

I’m not familiar enough with labor law to know the exact proceedue, but
presumably students would need to mount a state-wide campaign to vote UAW out
(if it is even possible).

Even then, I don’t know if campuses would be allowed to negotiate separately
or not.

~~~
chrisseaton
Wow being a graduate student is closed-shop in the US?! That’s crazy I never
knew that. How does that square with academic and political freedom? A student
who researches union abuse must join and fund a union!

~~~
singlow
California, not the US in general.

------
freyir
UC president Janet Napolitano was caught on a hot mic a few years back saying,
“We don’t have to listen to this crap”, when grad students protested for
living wages.

Sounds like not much has changed. Of course, she lives for free in the UC
presidential mansion, and had the school spend $620,000 to renovate it before
she moved in, so she’s all set.

~~~
dehrmann
> she lives for free in the UC presidential mansion

That's probably a fringe benefit, so at least she's taxed on its value.

------
antiterra
I got filled with righteous internet rage when I read the headline, but then I
read the article.

The particular strike was implemented by withholding fall grades, which seems
to unnecessarily burden students who are to be buried under crushing debt, no?
Also, they are apparently unionized and this strike was against the extant
agreements.

The consequences of not getting a grade can affect a student’s entire career
and ability to sustain themselves financially.

~~~
aaomidi
It's like protests is meant to cause a disruption.

I really have a terrible place in my heart for people who criticize protests
because it caused a disruption.

That's the point of a protest.

I'm very happy for you that you've never felt the need to take these drastic
steps, but they're protesting real issues and real problems they're having.
The grades are ultimately the universities problem

~~~
refurb
Protesting by making the lives harder for your fellow students is just a dumb
strategy.

It doesn't hurt the administration, it hurts the students.

Now the students are backing the administration!

~~~
asdff
Whether or not it hurts the students is up to the administration. Professors
can grade their own exams, as they do in many courses already. The university
doesn't even have to dip into their own pockets, they can use federally
subsidized work study labor if they were short on labor.

However, by hurting students and adhering to draconian policies that serve to
hurt more students, the school is paradoxically increasing support because the
administration knows students are going to be enraged without looking into the
nuance of why these things are happening to them, and who decides why these
things should happen the way that they do.

~~~
refurb
From what I’ve gathered, the exams were turned over to the grad students for
grading. The school asked for the grades, the grad students refused.

Has the school asked for the exams to be returned, so they could be graded? I
don’t know. I assume the graduate students wouldn’t turn them over anyways.

~~~
asdff
And again, this is brought upon by the university and their adherence to
policies designed to strike the biggest wedge between the student body. I've
had classes at my university where if you miss one exam your grade is averaged
from all the rest. If the building that housed the exams was engulfed in
flames and all the exams were lost, this is probably what the university would
do in response.

The university is free to make whatever rule they'd like to get around this,
but instead go for maximum hurt to try to cut the legs off of this strike, and
what is blowing me away is that this strategy by the university is working
very effectively.

~~~
refurb
What is the college doing with regards to the withheld grades?

Even if they did average all my other work, I'd be pissed I put all that
effort into something that has zero impact on my grade.

You're acting like the grad students have clean hands here which is clearly
not true. They joined the union with the intent they would negotiate on their
behalf. The union did so and promised to stop any wildcat strike. The students
didn't like the job the union did, so they went on strike, violating the
contract.

~~~
SolaceQuantum
_" e. They joined the union with the intent they would negotiate on their
behalf."_

They didn't have a choice. The union then negotiated against their interests.

~~~
refurb
Their choice was to either not join the union or join another one.

They likely joined UAW because they were already representing UCSC employees
(bargaining power). Along with that comes the fact that union represents all
members, not just you.

------
blacklion
To be honest, I read only ~75% of comments, but I'm very surprised that
[almost?] everybody discuss postgrad's salaries and conflict with university
and is it «free market» of employment as TAs and scuh/.

Why doesn't anybody discuss housing situation & regulations?! Why these
students protest against university and not City's government?! Why is it
strike and not revolt agains housing regulations!? Why is here no discussion
about «free market» of housing?!

I'm not live in USA, but looks like there is A LOT of demand for new housing
and offer is limited by totally out-of-market reasons! And everybody discuss
salaries and their fairness, not new housing and fairness of regulations! For
me, outsider, it is «obvious» that housing regulations, not university, are to
blame and protest against!

Also, I'm shocked, than room mates are offered as viable solution! I was
raised in USSR, where one of the main sins of government (in top-10 for sure)
was failure to provide personal housing for everybody.

I was raised in shared apartments (multiple bedrooms, single kitchen, toilet
and bathroom). Of course, room mates is _theoretically_ better, because
_theoretically_ you could choose room mates, and in USSR it was impossible to
choice so-tenants, as these rooms and apartments were distributed by officials
without consulting with people. But anyway, it is mind-boggling for me, that
it is suggested as good solution for adults peoples, who effectively work for
one of the best education institution in richest country in the world, to live
in shared apartments. Of course, it must be allowed, if friends want to live
together, but it must be decision based on convenience, not as only solution
to have ANY housing!

------
JMTQp8lwXL
The most disappointing aspect of this is how many people are locked out from
these opportunities because they don't have or come from the family wealth to
support living in a place like Santa Cruz while studying full time and TA'ing
at such low wages. Something's gotta give, and only people with the means to
do so can take the financial hit.

~~~
ajross
It's... more complicated than that. There is an existing union that represents
these people which has negotiated an existing collective bargaining agreement.
This strike wasn't authorized.

Now... maybe the union cut a bad deal, maybe their representatives aren't
faithfully honoring their commitment, maybe there is literal corruption
involved. But what is _not_ true is that these workers were unrepresented at
the salary negotiation.

Breaking the deal like this makes negotiating the next contract harder, not
easier.

~~~
gyrgtyn
All the TAs at that school voted against the deal the union made.

~~~
readhn
that little detail, everyone seems to miss...

~~~
refurb
Does it matter? They asked their union to represent them along with the other
UCSC union members (they are a small part of the members).

The union did so, and they are held to that contract.

~~~
epistasis
If somebody bargains on your behalf, and you have no way to reject what they
bargained for, can you really say that they acted in your behalf at all?

~~~
refurb
Sure. That comes with the territory of joining a union. The union negotiates
on behalf of all members under the contract.

If they didn't want that arrangement, they shouldn't have joined a union or
that union in particular.

~~~
asdff
So what now? CA is a closed shop state, the students can't cancel their
membership and join a new one. So they strike without the support of their
union, their union gets sued by UC, and now their union is countersuing for a
cost of living adjustment as of three days ago. If all pans out, taking this
wildcat strike was exactly the right move to make.

[https://uaw2865.org/uc-student-worker-union-files-unfair-
lab...](https://uaw2865.org/uc-student-worker-union-files-unfair-labor-
practice-charge-against-the-university/)

------
hindsightbias
Some think the status quo is the way forward and such a progressive state
cannot slide backwards - as California goes, so goes America.

Nixon, Reagan, Jarvis and a lot of very conservative Democrats controlled this
state for generations. Democrats have largely left their old base behind to
neoliberal economics, deregulation (Carter) and financial market weaponization
(Clinton).

The radicals from the left aren’t from CA anymore, and my guess is a future
that is a bit more Nixony but wearing Allbirds and sipping a Grapefruit IPA.

~~~
Ididntdothis
I think the Democrats are not the party of the working class anymore but the
party of well paid specialists and middle management upwards. I would call
them party of the top 10%. They have no ability to talk to the lowest ranks
anymore.

------
gyrgtyn
A bunch of people that make 500K try to explain why people that make 28K
shouldn't make 45K. In a town where rent is 20K.

~~~
cycrutchfield
I survived in grad school on much less than 28k in a very high cost of living
city. If anything, graduate student compensation is ridiculously high these
days. I don't see anything but money-grubbing here.

~~~
ausbah
so just because you had it bad, other people shouldn't have it better?

------
thanatosmin
I see a lot of discussion about the consequences of TAs withholding grades.
This situation is a consequence of poor management at UCSC. Every other
university I'm familiar with makes faculty responsible for submitting grades.
It's inconceivable to me why TAs would be responsible for grades. TAs should
be teaching assistants, not adjunct faculty.

Edit: I read "assigning grades" to mean assigning the final grades for the
course, not grading homework and exams. I'm pretty sure this is the
responsibilities the TAs had, because UCLA sent out a memo to all the faculty
explaining that senate faculty are responsible for grades here.

~~~
p1esk
Most faculty does not want to grade anything. I've TA'ed 6 courses, the
professor just showed up for lectures and reused last year's exams/homeworks.
Students had the solutions, >70% of the class copied them exactly. The prof
didn't care. And TA's were handling most complaints about the grades. This was
common for majority of undergrad level classes I took (a different UC campus).

Also, it was my job as a TA to explain the material during my TA sections
(which were basically lectures, only with more questions and more examples,
and I used a blackboard while the prof just read PP slides).

Even though the above was the norm, there were a few great professors who
cared, and taught very well.

~~~
DuskStar
No offence, but that sounds like a really shitty school to me.

~~~
p1esk
It's ranked top-50 in the nation.

~~~
meddlepal
Good example for the uselessness of rankings then.

~~~
p1esk
To be fair, the profs were usually world class experts in their respective
fields, and the quality of graduate-level classes was really high.

------
jostmey
More grad students should refuse to turn in grades. After all, it is the grad
students doing the grading and work.

What’s the worst thing that’s going to happen? You find a job that pays the
same but requires fewer hours of work?

~~~
umanwizard
The worst thing that’s going to happen is you’re fired and (unless you have
some other source of income) forced to leave your PhD program, permanently
ending your hopes of an academic career.

Not sure how you can reasonably downplay that...

~~~
asdff
Not to mention, having to move because there are no jobs in Santa Cruz and no
apartments you can afford without said job, and having to make this move
happen to some unknown place that might have a job with your zero dollars
saved up from your TA job. Homelessness for a spell is a real possibility.

------
ab_testing
The university knows that there is no dearth of graduate students coming into
the US. These international grad students will work at whatever wages the
university offers - simply for a chance to work in the US on OPT and a chance
to get into the H1 lottery eventually.

------
rdlecler1
We’re putting more grad students through the system than the economy is
willing to absorb. Is higher wages going to help or hurt this problem? (PhD
here with first hand experience of that opportunity cost)

------
dang
A related concurrent thread:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22455680](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22455680)

------
bradlys
I doubt this will be noticed but - the solution isn't higher pay. It's
building more housing. There should be a lot of dedicated housing for
students.

Grad students will constantly need to be negotiating for higher wages because
the rent will continue to increase. All the students are advocating for is
transfer of wealth from the university to landlords. :/

------
pmoriarty
Some context:

[https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/wxe45b/graduate-
student-s...](https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/wxe45b/graduate-student-
strikes-are-spreading-in-california)

------
newshorts
I understand the grad students were in the wrong and they were not being
realistic about their leverage...

But is it really that awful to ask for a decent living wage? When did we
become so feudal?

------
jariel
Just 1.5 generations ago, University was for those who could afford it. Many
grad student programs today are in that category. This category of people
competing for jobs otherwise filled by individuals with wealth will always
exist, there's no 'solution' to this problem.

I think it's best to not take those jobs and to find a cost-efficient way to
get through grad school. If people did this, the system would change. There
are many ways to access less expensive education, you don't need to be on the
coast of California. It's obviously 'too expensive' and that's a real and
fundamental issue in life.

~~~
athriren
1.5 generations ago the UC system was nearly free to attend.

~~~
jariel
1.5 generations ago in 1950, about %8 of people went to College. I don't think
that 'free' in relative terms is quite accurate as it was clearly still out of
reach of most people it'd seem.

~~~
asdff
People didn't go to college back then because it was out of reach, they didn't
go because they didn't need to. In 1920 you could get into UCLA with a slip of
paper signed by your principle certifying you did 4 years of high school; 100%
of the people who produced this scrap of paper got into the school. In the
50s, this requirement was stepped up to a $5 application fee and you needed to
average a B (1). It wasn't until the late 60s and early 70s that UC schools
started to put limits on enrollment, and even in the 1980s UCLA's admission
rate was 50%.

Perhaps the only people where college was out of reach back then were those
whose transcripts and paperwork were held up by bigoted people, either on the
side of the high school or the college itself.

[https://www.scpr.org/news/2018/03/23/81849/hey-uc-grads-
coul...](https://www.scpr.org/news/2018/03/23/81849/hey-uc-grads-could-you-
get-into-your-alma-mater-to/)

~~~
blix
In 1920, less than 20% of Americans completed 4 years of high school. How do
you think the average economic status of that group compared to the whole
country?

As old limits cease to be sufficiently exlusive, new ones are introduced.

~~~
asdff
If you didn't complete high school that means you joined the labor force
instead. You are right that of those who went to college, it perhaps wasn't
those with connections to the working class economy and readily available
local blue collar job opportunities. That being said, if you didn't want to
work with Dad on the factory line at 16, then you just hit the books,
graduated, and were virtually guaranteed college admission if you simply
completed high school.

People weren't completing high school back then because it was a difficult or
a privileged thing to do, they didn't complete high school because they didn't
need to complete high school in order to land a job paying a living wage and
start a family. For decades, a year of college was something you could pay for
with a summertime of part time work, it was not reserved for the rich and
elite, but those who simply wanted to go to college.

Now we've structured our economy such that if you want a living wage or a
career you can grow, you do need to go to college, and not just any college
but a good one, and sometimes more school afterwards. The economic incentives
are not the same. For instance, the GI bill was invented to reintegrate
returning veterans right back into their life plans when they returned from
WWII with little difficulty. Today, the GI bill is used by many as a way to
pay for college in the first place, not as a restitution payment for being
conscripted to military service like it was after WWII. College is so
necessary these days that people are willing to risk a deployment to a warzone
to get this scrap of paper, but this wasn't always the case.

~~~
blix
I think a lot of the people choosing to forgo education for an immediate job
probably also had some familiar financial pressures that made that choice more
appealing. Children helping their parents with money isn't new; the
expectation of 12+ years of schooling is new.

Choosing to continue formal education rather than generate income is a choice
that is a lot easier for those who are better off. It's surprising to me that,
even as vaguely leftist sentiments run through it, your argument hinges on a
myth of egalitarian education while denying any possible effect of wealth
inequality.

------
xtat
I truly can not imagine trying to pay rent within 200mi of sfbay on an
academic paycheck - get out before it implodes

------
thatiscool
You can have free speech, but it is an authoritarian system.

------
sitkack
Is that even legal?

~~~
umanwizard
Yes, it’s (obviously) legal to fire people who arbitrarily refuse to do the
job they signed up for. How could society possibly function otherwise?

------
fallingfrog
Hopefully this wakes people up to the fact that not only are universities not
the hotbeds of leftism that they are made out to be, but they are in fact run
by the same kinds of right wing plutocrats that run everything else.

~~~
asdff
Something tells me that the people who believe the former don't care very much
about the latter, perhaps even cheering it on.

------
GhostVII
Sounds like some unionized grad students decided to go on strike on their own,
without the unions approval. Firing doesn't seem unreasonable to me in that
case, and it certainly isn't "union busting" as Bernie Sanders said in the
article, given that the school has an agreement with the union. If you never
could get fired for striking, it would allow employees to hold the school
hostage indefinitely while making unreasonable demands (not that the demands
in this case were necessarily unreasonable, just that I don't think firing
strikers is inherently bad).

~~~
ausbah
it's hard to say that with a straight face when the union doesn't represent
their interests

------
macinjosh
Just because you exist does not mean you deserve success.

This strain of leftism is essentially just jealousy and entitlement. I learned
life isn't fair as a child it really isn't that hard of concept to grasp. That
gave me the motivation to think about what I wanted out of life and to work
towards that goal. I didn't get a loan from parents (they barely made ends
meet growing up). I didn't go to college or a code camp. I worked delivering
papers, then as a janitor ($5.65/hr), then a courier at a hospital before I
got my first coding job. Instead of going out with friend in high school I
stayed home and taught myself how to code. Now I have everything I want in
life. I am happy. It just took actual grit and work.

There is, quite literally, endless opportunity in this country if you have the
grit to find your own slice. But, because it is not dropped in some people's
laps they cry foul.

Our modern society, which was created through capitalism and the defeat of
socialism and communism, has lifted billions out of poverty, has made
previously deadly diseases a thing of the past, and the list goes on. Instead
of learning from our past successes these people throw a childish fit and
refuse to work while demanding more pay. It is asinine. If money is important
to you find a line of work that pays what you want. Grad school is not that.

Edit: I forgot to mention that these kids withheld students' grades from last
semester as leverage. Those students have nothing to do with their
compensation but are suffering due to their entitlement. The union for these
kids didn't even authorize the strike.

~~~
throwqwerty
I read a tweet on Reddit: if you think you made it through hard times okay but
think it's okay for other people to go through the same hard times then you in
fact did not make it through okay.

------
mathattack
As long as there are plenty of other grad students to fill the spots behind
them, of course they will get fired.

It’s easier for UCSC to find backfills than for these students to find new
schools.

Even if the school is sympathetic to the cause, it’s easier for the school to
call the bluff on 54 grad students this year than 540 next year.

------
lfmunoz4
Read the article because I was curious what major the grad students had, but
was disappointed in the journalist not detailing this fact. In my mind it does
make a difference. I doubt the students were in math for example.

~~~
legolas2412
Why? Even computer science grad students are paid the same

------
pvaldes
> they refused to turn in final fall grades

Some students take a debt for having the opportunity of achieving a grade. If
they study, learn, and pass, they should be allowed to participate in the yet
narrow window of time of hiring that follows after the formative period.
Flashing your grade can be necessary before just start talking with your
potential employer. Any random delay could make they lose a year and create a
damage in their finances, curricula and lifes.

They just put themselves in a impossible situation. Damaging the lifes of your
students, maybe forever, is not how anybody should do a strike and directly
disqualifies you as a teacher.

Is not much different when you are a scientist. Strike is a luxury that some
sectors really can't afford.

