
Dear Jeff Bezos: Is a suicide attempt enough, or do you still need more data? - RijilV
https://stephaniwilkes.com/2016/11/29/dear-jeff-bezos/
======
stinkytaco
By all accounts, Amazon is a hard place to work. It sounds like it's
demanding, difficult and puts employees under a constant microscope that
cannot help but increase stress. Given the track record, it probably surprises
none of us to read these stories.

And I'm really wondering if I should type this, but I also wonder about
isolated stories like these. Given the number of employees, some are _bound_
to be very sick people, regardless of working conditions. Some are also bound
to be entitled, unrealistic or otherwise simply willing to take advantage of a
story like this to criticize an employer they felt wronged them. I have worked
with more than one person who was willing to resort to self-harm as a
manipulative technique, which is a horrible and unfair thing to deal with. I
just wish I could read articles like this and say unequivocally that I know
Amazon is the problem.

I have no facts in this case, so I can only hope that the person who attempted
suicide yesterday gets the help he needs, from within Amazon or outside of it.

EDIT: I have suffered from mental illness myself and as a vet, I know work
related stress quite intimately (though I have never had PTSD myself, people
who I worked with still deal with it and it is very real). So I don't want to
dismiss that this occurs and is real. But we also have large, aggregate
numbers, which we never get from private sector companies. All we get are
anecdotes, each of which could easily be explained away. And perhaps that's
part of the problem. Should private companies have to provide concrete data on
workplace health issues like this? We regulate workplace safety, why not
mental health?

~~~
wutbrodo
> Given the track record, it probably surprises none of us to read these
> stories.

It surprises me, a lot. I was at Google for years, and even if you model a
company's decision-making simply as 100% profit-maximizing, IME
HR/managers/everyone was pretty motivated to keep employees happy so that they
don't leave. This pops up in all kinds of things: flexibility of the work
environment, keeping you engaged in interesting work, paying attention to your
career and skills growth, etc.

If anything I'd be inclined away from complimenting the way Google treats
their employees: I left because I wasn't satisfied with the way career growth
worked in the Research org of such a large company. But at not point did it
seem like anyone thought that putting employees under heavy pressure was a
path to success, let alone the expected path to success, as you imply.

~~~
stinkytaco
By track record I mean that this is hardly the first time Amazon's workplace
culture has come under scrutiny. This story and yesterday's are one in a long
line. Not that they are successful, ergo they must abuse employees.

~~~
wutbrodo
Ha...that makes sense. Ignore everything I said. Though I should say that I
definitely have heard that kind of apologia for a terrible environment before.

------
btilly
Amazon is a fascinating company.

You are told in the interview to read
[https://www.amazon.jobs/en/principles](https://www.amazon.jobs/en/principles)
and prepared to be interviewed for how well you fit that. You are so
interviewed. Once you're hired, you are constantly judged for fit to those
principles.

If people truly follow those principles, no defensive behavior is possible.
Which makes the company free to institute policies and procedures that will
work extremely well as long as everyone consistently follows those principles.

Then they fill the organization with real people. And there is no shortage of
defensive behaviors that people then pretend not to have so that they can
measure up to those principles.

As a whole, this works out well enough that Amazon is very successful as a
company. For any individual employee it can work well until you or someone in
a position to affect you crumbles under the pressure.

I'll never forget the experience of working there. And I'm glad that I don't
any more.

------
notyourwork
All I took from this was:

\- she was upset about something (maybe somethings) work related

\- she talked to her mom and professionals about her issues (even worked with
HR and support within Amazon)

\- she didn't get along with her manager

\- she was suicidal but too scared to follow through

It sounds like there was a bad chemistry or dynamic between employee and
manager. Beyond that this article is a drama piece that doesn't explain
anything concrete that actually happened to make her feel this way. I want to
sympathize with her but I am really having trouble.

edit: Tried to improve formatting.

Disclaimer: This doesn't mean I am rejecting the conclusions she is trying to
make. I sure would appreciate a real series of events to decide for myself
whether she was or wasn't in a hostile environment.

~~~
inimino
By publishing it as an open letter, we get to see the emotion and it brings
pressure on the CEO and the company to respond. She doesn't need to share the
details of what specifically happened, and indeed she probably should not.
Company outsiders aren't in a position to judge what happened anyway.

------
saosebastiao
Just thought I would share this site[0] with the caveat that these stories are
anecdotes from people who obviously hate amazon so there might be some bias.
I, as a former amazonian, can at the very least identify with a lot of what is
said there (as well as some of the good things said elsewhere), and most of it
doesn't look out of the ordinary, especially so if you're on the wrong team
with the wrong manager.

My story: My doctor told me to quit. After an anxiety attack and stress
induced kidney stones, he told me that my paycheck was not worth the damage to
my health. I stayed on long enough to collect my next stock vesting and then
bombed out. I even refused their gag bribery on the way out. Fuck that place.

[https://sites.google.com/site/thefaceofamazon/](https://sites.google.com/site/thefaceofamazon/)

------
lamontcg
This company so isn't worth destroying your life over.

If you start feeling this way, you really need to stop caring about it. Just
show up, do your work. Nod politely when they put you on a PIP and start
focusing your effort on finding a new job. Literally allow yourself to start
doing a bad job so that you can free up enough mental energy to go find a new
one.

------
sean_patel
> or do you still need more data?

Jeff doesn't need more data. He already has all of it. The data tells him that
this is collateral damage. It's the cost of doing business the way his
customers (you, me and others reading this) expect instant gratification,
free-everything and such with brutal speed and efficiency.

Your question should be

> do amazon customers really "need" free shipping, same day / same hour
> delivery (and other things that make them work their warehouse employees to
> death).

~~~
rubyn00bie
You absolutely do not need to have a horrible work environment to have a high
performing team and company. There is zero correlation, even less causation to
your claim.

This is apathy by management and it has now given way to cruelty (by the
sounds of it).

Do not spread these excuses as fact and certainly do not accept them when you
hear them.

~~~
sean_patel
Nope. The efficiencies you've grown to expect from Amazon comes at a cost. And
when Humans are involved in that cost, sometimes there is also a human cost.

See Life in an Amazon Warehouse: Fear and Efficiency at 35 Orders Per Second
=> [http://gizmodo.com/5982811/life-in-an-amazon-warehouse-
fear-...](http://gizmodo.com/5982811/life-in-an-amazon-warehouse-fear-and-
efficiency-at-35-orders-per-second)

~~~
rubyn00bie
A gizmodo article as proof? Come. On. That's merely stating what they're doing
not providing anything new to the argument.

Hire more people. Problem solved. Yeah it's gonna eat at your margins oh so
slightly (and less than you'd think). Turns out people who are over worked,
work like shit and it's because we aren't made to do that.

Stop trying to peddle this nonsense, mate.

~~~
sean_patel
> Hire more people. Problem solved. Yeah it's gonna eat at your margins oh so
> slightly (and less than you'd think).

If Bezos saw this advice, he'd laugh in your face. Because Amazon is moving
more towards eliminating humans and automation with robots. I'm sure he knows
all about margins bro.

~~~
rubyn00bie
Mate, you're upset for some reason. You're not arguing anything but your
feelings. Go read some HBR case studies or some organizational behavior
papers. Then talk with evidence instead of just attempting to insult me (I
think?).

This isn't conversation, and I'm going to stop. Good luck.

~~~
sean_patel
I'm not upset. You are. Because someone is disagreeing with your statements.
It's a systemic problem in today's world, especially in America. If someone
disagrees with you, you call it "offensive", "insulting" etc.

------
mmanfrin

      Now I’m writing you again because someone braver than I did 
      something I couldn’t bring myself to do. 
    

Are you kidding me. Attempting suicide because of your job in a job market
that is pretty fertile is _not fucking brave_.

~~~
user5994461
Until you realize the kind of interviews you'd have to endure to get another
job in that market /s

~~~
cbsmith
Huh? We're talking about _brave_ here. Bravery would imply getting through
whatever challenges lay ahead.

------
GotURsolution3
Jeff is already hard at work on the problem:

[https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jul/05/amazon-
ro...](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jul/05/amazon-robotics-
competition-dutch-team-first-prize)

~~~
stinkytaco
I suspect this was posted in jest, but why is that such a bad long term
solution? Should we work simply to do work, or if we can work a robot harder,
why not do that? Wouldn't that be better than working humans harder in the
long run?

This obviously does not absolve anyone for lacking empathy for other humans,
but it isn't a bad solution for humanity in general.

~~~
amelius
It is bad for humanity if only few (in this case Bezos) can reap the benefits
of hundreds of years of progress, while a large part of the population is
losing their job because of it.

And it is still bad for humanity, even if you could argue that a lot of people
temporarily pay a lower price for their goods ordered at Amazon. This price
may soon go up because of a total monopoly gained by exploiting technology
this way.

And of course, this all is not because Bezos is so smart, but because
capitalism is so flawed.

------
jackmodern
be aggressive, be bold, crack the whip on your widgets, get promoted.

I hate managers like that, it creates such a toxic miserable existence and
creates horrible work life balance (albeit well paid probably).

~~~
cbsmith
You can be aggressive, be bold, crack the whip on your widgets, and get
promoted without creating a toxic and miserable existence or horrible work
life balance. Those are choices you make.

------
adrianggg
All tech jobs are hard. Mental health is complex but a theme here is that
terrible managers can wield unhealthy power over powerless employees without
any recourse.

I worked there, I saw nice normal hard working people screwed over by terrible
managers.

Maybe that's life. Maybe there's a problem where that can be improved. Depends
on which side of the fence you're on.

------
jimmywanger
Overwrought prose by somebody with mental health issues.

Also, the lack of an internal locus of control, which I find reprehensible. If
you're in trouble, go find help. If you can't find help, well, you better make
the best of being in trouble. Aside from family and friends, nobody cares much
about you, and nobody should.

A company is not responsible for your physical or mental well being. It
provides resources that might help you overcome your difficulties. If you
can't take advantage of these resources, they're not going to spoon feed you.
They have better things to do with their time.

From the article "because I wonder how many times this unnamed victim reached
out to HR". More baseless hypotheticals.

Amazon employs over 20k people. It's fundamentally a profit making machine,
not a day-care for fragile little snowflakes.

And the author of this article finally quit right? Isn't the author glad that
he lacked the courage to kill himself and found the courage to quit?

------
chiefalchemist
Different people react to different situations in different ways. Regardless
of her metal facilities Amazon should look to develop people, not put them in
a position to fail, let alone commit suicide. Amazon didn't just fail the
employee, it failed itself and it's shareholders. The were options here, with
better outcomes for all.

------
chiefalchemist
Different people react to different situations in different ways. Regardless
of her metal facilities Amazon should look to develop people, not put them in
a position to fail, let alone commit suicide. Amazon didn't just fail the
employee, it failed itself and it's shareholders.

------
maverick_iceman
While I don't support Amazon's poor treatment of their employees some
perspective is needed. The only reason this is news is because they are a
software company. In any other business worse treatments are par for the
course, even among Fortune 500 companies.

------
sagivo
funny how their spokesman saying that this person gets the best medical
treatment now.

how about preventative care?

~~~
simonebrunozzi
That's typical PR-speak. Ignore it.

------
asddg123456
Jeff doesn't give a shit

~~~
stinkytaco
I suspect if there's bad press he will. This vaguely reminds me of their
decision to install air conditioning in the warehouses after a high profile
story about the conditions there.

~~~
ekianjo
jeff owns part of the press too.

~~~
tanderson92
This sounds like something an unwitting "useful idiot" of Putin would say. I'm
tempted to tell PropOrNot about this.

edit: since this has possibly been misunderstood, I am sarcastically drawing
attention to the fact that Bezos' owning the Washington Post can decide to
smear news other organizations as foreign propaganda, if they were to side
against his interests on a story such as this.

------
krisroadruck
Probably not a popular opinion, but maybe someone who is mentally unbalanced
enough to commit suicide over a job is the problem, not the company itself. In
a company as large as amazon you are going to have the full gamut of the human
spectrum working for you. It _IS_ possible that person who is a bad employee,
and person who would commit suicide at work can occupy the same body.

Franky, this linked letter shares a lot of that same bizarreness. He calls the
person who jumped off the roof brave and said he wish he had the courage to do
that. If you hate your job, wouldn't the courageous thing be to go get a
different job? If you are a good employee then getting another job shouldn't
be that difficult. If you aren't a good employee then it is hardly the
company's fault.

I'm not saying that amazon is not potentially a shitty place to work at. But
this whole employee attempts to commit suicide, that'll show em attitude is
just plain wrong headed.

~~~
mikestew
_I expect to get downvote blasted into oblivion, but maybe someone who is
mentally unbalanced enough to commit suicide over a job is the problem, not
the company itself._

Down voting your comment would disappoint me very much (and as of this
writing, it's the top comment). IMO, at worst Amazon is part of a much larger
picture. And as you imply, out of X number of people, Y will hurl themselves
off a building. Remember the FoxConn hoo-ha a few years back? Yeah, I sat down
and compared the reported suicide rates of 400K FoxConn employees versus China
in general (I wasn't the only one, as I recall). Turns out, FoxConn folk must
be pretty damned happy, actually, as their suicide rate was lower than the
general population of China.

No, to place blame on Amazon is to ignore the problem. I've worked at far
shittier places than Amazon is reported to be, and I didn't take my own life.
More was at play than just where this person worked. If we need do anything,
we need identify that "more" and fix _that_.

~~~
notyourwork
> at worst Amazon is part of a much larger picture.

I think this is the crux of the issue with our industry. It is not unique to
Amazon, it just so happens they have had a few vocal employees.

~~~
rfrank
Lower level employees at companies like this tend to get deridden for speaking
about their situation and told to "just get a new job / move to a new city".
This thread, that Yelp girl, and so on. Disapproval of your circumstances or
employment situation have to be expressed in just the right tone and wording
to be considered valid by some.

