
FYI: No JIT on Windows 8 for ARM - schrototo
http://www.freelists.org/post/luajit/FYI-No-JIT-on-Windows-8-for-ARM
======
josteink
Honest question: Is this any different from on iOS? Are you allowed to create
native code-generators on iOS?

If not, why do we all of a sudden care about this now?

~~~
4ad
When the Windows ARM port was announced, many people had hoped for general
purpose ARM devices that could replace their cheap laptops. This is not the
case, so people complain. Also, the fact that Apple does it doesn't mean it's
right. People complain about the Apple situation all the time as well.

~~~
recoiledsnake
>When the Windows ARM port was announced, many people had hoped for general
purpose ARM devices that could replace their cheap laptops

AFAIK Microsoft never claimed this, so I don't see how the complaints are
valid.

Also, many people here who are complaining that want to do this are unlikely
to be running Windows on those devices and would prefer almost anything else,
especially Ubuntu or Android.

~~~
pygy_
The first public demo showed Office running on ARM. I don't think that Metro
had been announced at the time.

Way to set expectations... mine at least.

Edit: See also this: [http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-desktop-
apps-w...](http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-desktop-apps-will-
run-on-windows-8-on-arm/10756)

~~~
recoiledsnake
And Office comes _bundled_ with Windows RT.

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TazeTSchnitzel
I wonder if Windows 8 will be the death of the Windows platform. Horrible
Desktop experience, great Tablet experience but no apps.

But if Windows dies, what then can replace it? Will we see another XP, except
one that goes unreplaced? Microsoft making a U-Turn?

Or possibly, another Operating System? Android? Chrome OS? Ubuntu?

Whatever happens, Windows 8, its launch, and aftermath will certainly be
interesting, "good" or not.

~~~
Derbasti
People have always complained about new versions of Windows. They bitch and
moan and they cry and vouch never to touch it, but in the end, it does not
matter.

Most people buy a new PC every few years and it comes with some sort of OS and
it looks different every time. Whether that was XP or Vista or 7 or 8, they
won't know. And consequently, we can complain all we want, but if it comes
pre-installed and IT departments like it, it will work.

Don't get me wrong, Microsoft _will_ die eventually (just like we all do), but
it will be a gradual, less painful process. Maybe this _is_ one of their last
serious stabs at something exciting. But they will die of obscurity, not
concrete failure.

~~~
cageface
That was then. This is now.

There are real alternatives today, including not upgrading. Microsoft may come
to regret making Windows 7 as solid as it is.

~~~
CGamesPlay
Not upgrading is always an immediate option. You think Windows 7 will still
look great 5 years from now? 10 years?

~~~
cageface
XP has looked like shit for years already but people still cling to it like a
tree in a hurricane.

Ten years is way too far in the future to place any bets.

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bgarbiak
For those who read the title and started worrying that JavaScript will return
to the stone age of performance: JS _will be JIT-compiled on Windows 8 for
ARM_ \- but only in IE10. Furthermore, HTML5/Metro apps - unlike similar kind
of applications on iOS - _will be_ JIT compiled and hardware accelerated too.
Source: [http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2012/02/07/high-
performan...](http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2012/02/07/high-performance-
html5-content-in-metro-style-apps.aspx)

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pgeorgi
Couldn't the various JIT languages piggyback on the CLR? That is, they
wouldn't JIT to ARM, but compile to CLR and then execute that.

Of course, that's some mighty overhead for "just one" platform.

~~~
kevingadd
Yeah, but there isn't a 1-1 correspondence between CLR bytecode and native
instructions. If you want to access SIMD instruction sets on x86, x64 or ARM,
the CLR won't let you do that.

~~~
pgeorgi
Ideally the CLR takes care of that (it's in Microsoft's own interest to have
it create good native code)

I don't mean to translate "mov eax, ecx" to the CLR bytecodes of "ecx = eax;",
but targetting CLR as kind of a CPU in its own right (with whatever
capabilities it has).

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zhwang
If this is correct, then this matters _much, much_ more than the
sensationalism surrounding browsers on WoA being unable to run as desktop
apps.

The entire focus of WoA is pretty much Metro-style apps, with Office on the
desktop as something on the aside, so why would it matter that another browser
can't place itself into the desktop? But if other browsers are actually going
to be disadvantaged backend-wise, then that's something to worry about.

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laconian
Microsoft totally missed the opportunity to make something open and wonderful.
Now, we're basically getting iPads, but with bright cyan colors and a chronic
inability to fit huge 128pt words on one page. "MUSI" "PICTUR" "SOCIA"

~~~
recoiledsnake
The people wanting 'open' are going to buy Android tablets anyway, why would
they buy Windows RT tablets?

> Now, we're basically getting iPads, but with bright cyan colors and a
> chronic inability to fit huge 128pt words on one page. "MUSI" "PICTUR"
> "SOCIA"

Looks like you're totally ignorant of the Metro UI design philosophy. Have you
actually tried a Metro device or are you looking at screenshots?

~~~
laconian
Building locked-down systems is not Microsoft's core competency. A big factor
behind Windows' success was the massive developer support they received. With
a few exceptions (like the undocumented ATL libraries), developers could do
whatever the hell they want. They got a vibrant ecosystem in return. It looks
like the same strategy is working for Android even today.

------
flexd
Are Microsoft actively trying to lose customers? Why would we use this OS when
there are open alternatives around?

~~~
cooldeal
>Are Microsoft actively trying to lose customers? Why would we use this OS
when there are open alternatives around?

Oh,is that why the iPad is such a big failure compared to Android tablets?

/s

~~~
nextparadigms
I don't think Android tablets have mostly failed because Android was open.
They failed because they arrived too late in the market, Google didn't focus
on 3rd party apps from the beginning, and their solution, Honeycomb, arrived a
year later, and it sucked as an OS, with bugs, etc. So in effect iPad had
about a 2 years head start.

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codedivine
Actually no jit for windows metro apps on x86/64 either

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chj
Ah.. why MS keep embracing Apple's stupid ideas

~~~
HarshaThota
It's rather easy for Microsoft to justify copying Apple when Apple keeps
posting results like this:
[http://www.engadget.com/2012/04/24/apple-q2-2012-earnings-
re...](http://www.engadget.com/2012/04/24/apple-q2-2012-earnings-report-ipad-
iphone-sales/)

~~~
rwallace
Apple's behavior has been consistently vile for the last three decades.
They've been profitable of late because of kick ass design innovation. Smart
phones, tablets, displays that finally have decent resolution, it was Apple
who got all those things going, and that's what earned them the money.

Microsoft has never been an innovator. Their strength has always been that by
corporate standards they were on the side of openness, of choice of software
running on commodity hardware that everybody could use.

If they start copying the vile behavior and not the design innovation, I think
they'll end up on a downhill slide.

~~~
chj
exactly. MS is going crazy. They thought the reason apple gets popular is
being a-hole.

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kogir
Not entirely true. .Net and JS code on Windows RT will most certainly be
JITed. All you need to do is target the CLR or JavaScript runtime.

~~~
bad_user
Yeah, try building a Javascript interpreter on top of the CLR. Compare that
with V8.

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throwaway54-762
"For W8ARM there'll be no … Java"

There's always GCJ (<http://gcc.gnu.org/java/>)!

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jheriko
I think the OP has jumped to a conclusion.

In the worst case you should be able to write a driver using the DDK (some
drivers will absolutely need dynamic code) to circumvent the problem.

More likely there are things in the huge, in flux and poorly documented API
that will let you do it.

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chj
i thought this is what MS could do better and a good chance for them. But they
are doing Apple's doing, how can they compete with iPad then?

