
From GNU social to Mastodon - panic
https://thomask.sdf.org/blog/2018/08/19/from-gnu-social-to-mastodon.html
======
phaedryx
I've become more and more annoyed with Twitter (the company) and Twitter (the
things people are tweeting) and I've been looking for a replacement. I really
like the way that the Fediverse has all kinds of different
groups/instances/neighborhoods. For example, I joined
[https://ruby.social](https://ruby.social) this week and I've had some
interesting discussions about Ruby programming. Twitter is a mess of
everything because anything and everything is a topic.

~~~
skybrian
I like it too, but having used it casually for about a week, I'm wondering how
you visit different communities without creating multiple accounts? It should
be as easy as visiting a different subreddit.

(I do know that you can subscribe to individuals in other instances, but
haven't done that yet.)

~~~
jancsika
Let me see if I understand the problem.

alice register on instance "music"

alice wants to see what's up on instance "books"

Is the problem that the default behavior of Mastodon requires alice to
register a new account on "books" just to see that instance's timeline?

~~~
justinpombrio
Yes, that is exactly the problem.

Although it might be better to say that that's the manifestation of the real
problem. The real problem is that I want to be able to talk about books
sometimes, even though I'm a musician so I registered on the musician
instance. If there's a way for me to have conversations about books, I don't
care whether it's an "instance" or not. I just don't want to manage two
separate accounts. (As an end-user, none of my end-goals mention the word
"instance".)

~~~
jancsika
Yeah, I guess I'm confused about why an instance has any topic whatsoever
associated with it.

For a federated design I'd assume the main difference among instances to be
code of conduct/ToS.

~~~
opan
I've been on one Mastodon instance and one Pleroma instance. Neither really
had a set topic, and both pulled in some toots from other instances that were
"similar", but my posts are about anything I want, as they would be on
Twitter.

------
stesch
What I don't understand: Why do they promote the software instead of the
protocols?

News and e-mail had different server software and clients and were both used
around the world.

Mastodon uses standard protocols, too.

~~~
unimpressive
People use software, the value add Mastodon has over GnuSocial is that it's
software that advertises itself to users on its own merits. (Well that and a
moderation policy that's stricter than Twitter's, supposedly.)

~~~
spc476
Yeah, but I'd like to use software that isn't written in PHP or Ruby (for a
variety of reasons, some valid, and some not). If the protocol was better
documented, there might be more choice.

~~~
zaarn
There is pleroma which is written in Python and functions with the mastodon
web interface natively .

~~~
marci
Pleroma is written in Elixir

[https://blog.soykaf.com/post/what-is-pleroma/#less-moving-
pa...](https://blog.soykaf.com/post/what-is-pleroma/#less-moving-parts)

~~~
zaarn
I probably remembered wrong... still not Ruby or php!

------
ad_hominem
I tried Mastodon early on and it was pretty slow, which I assume is due to it
being a Ruby on Rails app that probably wasn't heavily optimized. Probably
also partly due to there only being a handful of popular instances so the
inrush of users weren't being spread out very much. Anyone still encountering
that?

A fairly popular instance also crashed and lost all accounts, toots etc.:
[https://web.archive.org/web/20180325132625/https://mastodon....](https://web.archive.org/web/20180325132625/https://mastodon.rocks/about)

~~~
throw2016
The choice of Ruby for a platform that is supposed to enable decentralization
does not make sense.

Most Ruby apps have tens to hundreds of dependencies and require a build
environment which immediately limits access to a smaller group of developers
familiar with Ruby build environments and debugging their way out of any
dependency hell. Customization also becomes a problem.

There is also no particular design in Mastodon itself to enable more
transparency and prevent any arbitrary behavior and abuse of power.

~~~
AsyncAwait
Really?

There's official Docker images that I've been running sucesfully for a while,
the deployment of Mastodon is really no different from any other self-hosted
app these days.

~~~
throw2016
This is even worse. Now you want the average user to know to now only know
Ruby but also Docker? These are technologies for technical folks, the kind of
troubleshooting required is not trivial.

And just packaging something in Docker does not make the need to understand it
go away, what happens when things needs to be configured, when database
connections don't work, when things go wrong? You still need to understand the
software stack pretty well if you want to run it with any degree of
confidence.

~~~
AsyncAwait
> This is even worse. Now you want the average user to know to now only know
> Ruby but also Docker?

Docker is not a requirement, it's an additional deployment option. Sure,
having a static binary might be easier, but with Docker is pretty much
equivalent, you get one, static download.

Had Mastodon been written in Go, this would not solve the problem of having to
know Go if things go seriously wrong and you need to debug the actual
software. Do you need C knowledge to run Linux? No, but it is certainly
helpful.

For what it's worth, I've never had to touch anything Ruby-related in my
several months of running a Mastodon instance.

------
TheJoYo
if anyone is averse to the column layout on the default Mastodon UI they
should check out [https://pinafore.social](https://pinafore.social) for a more
Twitter like layout.

rather than being a mastodon instance you simply use pinafore as your portal
to your existing mastodon account.

~~~
bumholio
Can't really figure it out. I try to login and put mastodon.social in the Add
instance field, but I get an error:

> Error: undefined. Is this a valid Mastodon instance? Is a browser extension
> blocking the request?

~~~
callahad
You'll see that error if the Service Worker failed to register. Check your
browser console?

~~~
bumholio
I think I've cracked it: it does not work in Firefox Private mode.

~~~
nolanl
Author of Pinafore here. Yes, ironically for an app and userbase that is so
focused on privacy, things like private browsing, Privacy Badger, adblockers,
etc. can cause compat issues with Pinafore.

Interestingly, the reason is (as I discovered) that most of these tools
consider cross-origin requests as a signal of a third-party tracker or ad, and
therefore block it. Pinafore works by talking directly to the instance's API,
and so the instance itself is suspected to be a third-party tracker. ‍️

------
foxhop
I decided to join Mastodon when it first came out. I planned to stand up my
own server, but I kept.putting it off...

Flash 2 years later, last week I finally got a Mastodon instance up, and I
don't host it myself. I'm using [https://masto.host](https://masto.host)

They let you used your own domain.

My thought process is to not waste my time writing automation to stand up a
server until I know I really want to use it.

So far I love it even though I only have 3 followers. I'm "micro blogging"
more frequently than I used to on Twitter.

Of you have been meaning to stand up a Mastodon instance but just have not
gotten around to it, maybe give mastodon.host a try.

They provide the ability to export and self host.

~~~
anderspitman
I was wondering if they allow export. I poked around the website for a bit and
didn't see anything. That's the primary selling point for me. I want to run my
own instance eventually but I'd love to start with something hosted.

~~~
jdeibele
[https://github.com/kensanata/mastodon-
backup/](https://github.com/kensanata/mastodon-backup/) allows you to backup
your mastodon data.

It also allows you to expire your toots, boosts, etc. The idea is that you
don't want people searching your timeline to find gotcha's.

------
TuringTest
I really miss something like thematic "groups" or "channels" in Mastodon,
i.e., a mechanism for making sure that all the people subscribed get all the
messages published in it.

That's the #1 feature that allows separate communities to grow, which makes
places like Usenet or Reddit or ICQ to become a global conversation where
anyone can participate, and where private conversations between restricted
communities can happen independent of a central server.

The "timeline" model where everyone publishes their own stream, and anyone
subscribe to individual persons, is good for fast propagating of ideas and
news; but it doesn't create "clusters" of like-minded ideas that you can
follow, and forces everybody to curate their own inputs. This makes it really
difficult to jump in, as building a subscription list that provides
interesting content and avoids noise has a lot of friction.

~~~
epeus
You can do that with hashtags, but it is only going to show up within your
instance's federation. Gnusocial has ! Groups which do propagate all posts,
but mastodon didn't implement that bit.

~~~
TuringTest
Yes, the article mentioned that and that's what made me think about it; it's a
different model, close to Twitter but different from other "thematic" social
platforms.

Matrix.org has a good model for channels (called rooms), groups of channels
[1] (called Communities), and distributed identities. I only hope that
Matrix.org will become the common background middleware for all federated
services, and all these will tend to implement the same features for
interoperability.

[1] [https://medium.com/@RiotChat/communities-aka-groups-are-
here...](https://medium.com/@RiotChat/communities-aka-groups-are-here-
announcing-riot-web-0-13-riot-ios-0-6-and-riot-android-0-7-4-933cb193a28e)

------
cjhanks
So I was curious and went to look at a few of the servers online. The top
server was an unending stream (like, more than once a minute) of Richard
Stallman automatically posting political references from some other service he
apparently runs. Another server was just some guy who I have never heard of
complaining about various things. I came across a group talking about current
and passed times they had a beer.

That content will not inspire others to join.

~~~
drngdds
>Some guy who I have never heard of complaining about various things

You just described 90% of the content on every social media platform

~~~
cjhanks
Yeah, I'm a part of the 90% I suppose. :)

------
dorianm
To get a list of mastodon isntance
[https://instances.social/](https://instances.social/) is pretty neat

------
fwn
Down for me right now. Mirror:

[https://web.archive.org/web/20180827000013/https://thomask.s...](https://web.archive.org/web/20180827000013/https://thomask.sdf.org/blog/2018/08/19/from-
gnu-social-to-mastodon.html)

------
fimdomeio
I would love to remember to which instance I signed up with. This is a problem
that is harder to solve than email was in the 90's. I knew that it was
myNickname@myISP.myCountry. For mastodon I guess I'll have to go through the
list and find the exotic instance i signed up with.

~~~
spinningarrow
Wouldn’t you have received a confirmation email from the instance you signed
up with?

------
bdz
Every social media platform is an echo chamber but it's interesting to see
that Mastodon is the first where that's the main selling point

------
needle0
So very tempting to post in every single Mastodon-related thread emphasizing
it's Mast _O_ don, not Mast _A_ don.

~~~
nwah1
More proof we are living in the Berenstain Bears universe, forever
disconnected from our original Berenstein universe.

------
owlmusic
Also recently felt a need to leave Twitter and search for an alternative. I
initially began using mastodon.social, and have now moved to my own instance
[https://mastodon.zone](https://mastodon.zone) as I wanted to setup something
in a closer geo location, join if you're around SE Asia!

------
throw2016
The problem is abuse of power and arbitrary behavior that affects many when
they have even a little bit of power. This is what leads to censorship,
suppressing views, bubbles and lack of accountability.

Mastodon does not solve this in the slightest, just enables thousands of
arbitrary admins. At least with Twitter there is one source and its easier to
seek some kind of accountability and put a global spotlight on them.

With platforms like Mastodon this becomes impossible. We instead quickly
develop 'ingroups of admins' quietly suppressing others and not amenable to
transparency or accountability. Decentralization is about diffusing control
not empowering a super group of admins. If that is what you seek why not just
stick to twitter.

~~~
WorldMaker
Be your own "arbitrary" admin in that case?

The decentralized nature certainly allows for "competition" between "ingroups
of admins". Don't like your current admins? Move to an instance elsewhere. If
you have friends, encourage them to follow you in the move.

Different instances have different transparency/accountability metrics, and
the good ones tend to have that posted in the Instance About page/terms. Many
of the "ingroups of admins" people decry have all of their silences/suspends
posted publicly and transparently on GitHub repositories and offer
suggestions/propose fixes as GitHub issues and PRs. That's certainly way more
amenable to transparency/accountability than anything Twitter has ever
offered.

The things that lead to censorship/suppressing views/bubbles/etc on Mastodon
aren't power-hungry admins in a secretive cabal, but instead the same powers
that be in the world of email: signal-to-noise management (spam management,
"newsletter" management, "fwd: fwd: re:" management). That's as much a user
opt-in choice/need as any sort of admin opt-out "power", and if other users
think you are more part of the noise rather than the signal, then that's more
of a "you" problem, isn't it?

~~~
throw2016
If the solution is to do your own thing, how exactly is this better than
Twitter? Any Twitter user can do that right now, doing your own thing can
hardly be presented as a solution. Really, what are the benefits for current
Twitter users?

This is just replacing the admins of twitter with random others. So you are
not solving the problems of Twitter or decentralization, just promoting your
own solution on misleading grounds.

For the average users at least it easier to trust the admins of twitter and
expect some accountability and standards of transparency than random others
with no accountability.

~~~
WorldMaker
How is it easier to trust the admins of Twitter for the average user? It's a
closed, for profit corporation that intentionally obfuscates its moderation
practices and in general distrusts direct engagement with admins/moderators.

Every Mastodon instance lists its admins on its frontpage, including how to @
mention them. Most instance admins respond to feedback directly. As I
mentioned in the previous comment, particularly good Mastodon instances list
their moderation policies and accountability/transparency standards on their
frontpages, too, with many of them linking to GitHub repositories or similar
where they conduct their business in the source-controlled open.

It's not "random others", because you have the option to choose your
instance(s), and can often form personal bonds with the instance's admin(s).
Some good instances like toot.cafe and friend.camp are making that a focus
that you know who your friendly neighborhood admin is/are and should have a
good relationship with them. Sure, your local admin probably talks to other
admins or follows other admins, but at the end of the day the admin
accountable to the instance is still the one running the instance. There's no
central cabal secretly running the show behind the scenes because the admins
are already as diverse as the users.

One of the few ways I can see people trust Twitter better is that at least as
a for-profit company, it has a business model, and accountability to
shareholders (if really, no one else in modern corporate America). There's
nothing stopping Mastodon instances from incorporating and forming "proper"
business models/governance models to get that additional level of government-
blessed transparency. In fact, I've advocated for just that and think that
something like a non-profit/charitable Mastodon Foundation to help instances
run the business administrivia would be a good idea.

------
oopsman88
With all of its faults, I'll take Twitter and its almost free speech over
Mastodon any day. Many people say they are quitting Twitter because of the
algorithmic timeline and so on, and they are going to Mastodon where a cabal
of people choose to ban opinions that are perfectly legal.

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
I can't help but notice that you, complaining about “free speech”, have “88”
at the end of your name.

Wonder what kind of speech (which you only defend by its supposed legality)
you're concerned about being banned.

~~~
dx87
Are you seriously implying that someone is a nazi just because they have the
number 88 in their name? I have the number 87 in my name, what does that tell
you about me?

You're a perfect example of what they're complaining about. They've said
nothing even remotely offensive, just that they don't agree with shared block
lists, and you've already decided that they're wrong and a nazi. I've seen
people get added to shared block lists on twitter just because they commented
on a thread saying that they both political parties in the US should work
together instead of being so devisive, so it's not like only trolls and
abusive people get added to those lists.

I hope you enjoy your self-imposed bubble, where everyone you disagree with is
a nazi.

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
I don't think everyone I disagree is a Nazi. It's just… easy to lose patience
with the “free speech” line of argument when so many people invoking it are
doing so in bad faith.

~~~
oopsman88
Also, not everybody you disagree with acts in bad faith. Nazis, communists,
anarchists, you name it: most of them believe their views of society will lead
to a betterment of it. They don't adhere to their principles just because they
want to fuck with others.

~~~
epeus
Nazi ideology is explicitly about fucking with others. It is about separating
people who they disapprove of and killing them. If you're trying to normalise
Nazis, you are one of them, and the 88 dogwhistle doesn't look good.

~~~
oopsman89
I think all ideas should be discussed in an open forum. If you think some
people may become nazis, communists or pastafarians because those ideas appeal
to them, it's because you're afraid the ideas you're trying to push on aren't
that good to begin with. (Posting from another account because that one has
been banned for no reason I can discern.)

------
ifur
For the social part to really work, you need a community to adopt it. Not just
an internet community. Good to see alternatives to Twitter however.

Generally don't like AJAX, it's JS and XML, and in the latter case Twitter
services don't require Stylesheets or XLS as it's called -- without -- XML is
bloated and creates metadata for sale. In addition to AJAX allowing Orwellian
advertisement influence.

Edit: this gets downvoted? reasonable technical criticism or dialogue.

~~~
egypturnash
do you know how many queer furries are on mastodon right now holy crap, that
is definitely a community

Also um I think pretty much the entire fediverse is free of ads right now.

~~~
ifur
Twitter as a media form to participate with the choir in the ether is perhaps
more suitable to you than hacker news.

