
Bonjour, Entrepreneurs – Only you can prevent French-Bashing - liam_boogar
http://www.rudebaguette.com/2014/03/24/bonjour-entrepreneurs/
======
bowlofpetunias
Or alternatively, you can simply ignore all this Euro-bashing (France is just
the flavor of the month) under the heading "they do things differently, so
they must be wrong".

Because we've been hearing this "the old continent with its big government and
socialist laws is dying" crap for generations, and so far the only major fuck-
ups have been in the ideologically driven attempts to be more like the US.

Just a thought: maybe there are multiple roads that lead to success, and we
should distinguish between real practical concerns and ideological prejudices.

This goes both ways, because next up will be an article about how much better
France (or any other Euro country) is in terms of working conditions for
employees.

~~~
Silhouette
_Because we 've been hearing this "the old continent with its big government
and socialist laws is dying" crap for generations, and so far the only major
fuck-ups have been in the ideologically driven attempts to be more like the
US._

The Greeks just called and asked if you could give them a loan.

I think you're right that there are multiple roads that lead to success, but
not _all_ roads do. The economic policies of quite a few European nations over
the past decade or two have been unsustainable, and as we have now confirmed
the hard way, that means sooner or later things break spectacularly. There's
not much point comparing working conditions between Europe and the US when one
of these places has widespread unemployment and there is literally rioting on
the streets, as was the case not very long ago.

As 'gadders observed, there have been other economic policy decisions in
(parts of) Europe that had nothing to do with emulating the US, sounded
positive, but turned out to be crazy too.

~~~
bowlofpetunias
Most of Europe has been playing this game for _centuries_.

Almost everything people consider typically European, from food, culture to
social-economic policies, has mostly been imported and adopted from countries
and cultures outside of Europe.

It's this openness to change, this constant iteration instead of desperately
holding on to the "one true way" (something typical not only for cultures that
rise and fall, but also something that seems to be hindering the US when it
comes to implementing necessary change) is the essence of the enduring wealth
of Western-Europe.

There is no one European way, just constant evolution until a new successful
road is found.

The riots in the streets and social unrest, which are nothing new or unusual
in Europe, are a part of that process, not a sign of deterioration.

(And unemployment figures are hard to compare when what is considered
employment in the US is considered exploitation of people below the poverty
line in Europe...)

The economic policies of "a decade or two" are nothing. A blip. European
countries can completely tilt social-economic policy within a generation
because none of it is tied to their fundamental identities. You visit some
European countries now you would find it hard to believe they were strictly
communist less than a generation ago.

Whatever traditions European nations have, they go much deeper than the
favorite social-economic policy du jour. It's something Americans seem to find
very difficult to separate.

The US has tied it's identity to fundamental social-economic values and
ideologies. For European nations, social-economic policy is a changeable as
the weather.

~~~
Silhouette
There is certainly a lot of diversity in political and economic views in
Europe, and by European standards the political and economic mainstream in the
US are very narrow, with relatively little difference between the two big
parties or the economics they promote.

I think you are overstating how fast things change in Europe and how much has
been imported and adopted from outside. With the arrival of the EU and its
subsequent expansion to bring many more countries into "Europe", the mix has
changed, but if you look at "old Europe" the character and general philosophy
of each nation hasn't really changed all that much for quite a long time. The
Germans are still industrious: they believe in making stuff well and follow a
somewhat capitalist philosophy. The UK and most of northern Europe have
similar tendencies, though some of these places have drifted away from
manufacturing and toward service sectors more than others in recent decades.
In contrast, the French are heavily socialist, and southern Europe has similar
tendencies.

------
patrickaljord
French here and I agree with the NYC article. Strict employment laws and
extreme taxation as well as constant IRS harassment makes it a living hell for
small and medium entrepreneurs here. Systematically labeling any critic as
"French bashing" is not the way to solve these issues and yet it's the only
thing I read from my fellow French anytime there's a critic of our system in
the news. Not encouraging.

~~~
bsaul
Same here. Remember that whenever you want to hire an engineer here, you'll
pay him 70k€ and he'll get 35k€ ( then pay income tax on that). You can have
JEI that would help you a bit, but that's a lot of paperwork ( most companies
i know outsource paperwork for that matter).

That pretty much settle the discussion. I hire interns then pay them
freelancing after that. Never would I dare hiring them.

~~~
fab13n
> you'll pay him 70k€ and he'll get 35k€

That's true (although it's a pretty junior salary). However, thanks to the
stuff funded by the €35k he didn't receive directly:

* he has no student loan;

* his kids' school is free or very cheap;

* he has top-level health insurance, and he knows there's a 0% chance he'll ever lose it; he hasn't got a clue what "preexisting condition" might even mean;

* he lives in a place safe enough that there's no sense in paying to live in a gated community; he probably doesn't know what a "gated community" is actually;

* he's got decent unemployment insurance (even if his qualifications are his best employment insurance, it still allows him to get bank loans more easily);

* his retirement is funded;

* his wife will be able to take years off to raise his babies under financially interesting conditions (legally he can, too, but culturally he usually won't want to).

* he gets massive tax breaks if he employs a nanny, a maid, etc.

So all-in-all, I'm not sure you're better off with $100K in the US than with
€35K in France.

~~~
antimagic
Let me give you an example of why this is a weak argument, and bear in mind
that I say this as someone that has lived and worked in France for the last
ten years.

I'm going on 40. I'm not married, and I won't be having kids. From your list
of benefits:

* although I also didn't have a student loan, it wasn't thanks to French taxes.

* I don't / won't have kids so their subsidised schooling does nothing for me individually

* health insurance. I'm still young enough that I don't have any major health problems, although of course, insurance is also protecting me from accidents and what not, so I am getting some benefit from this. Concretely though, I haven't as yet got much more than a few courses of antibiotics paid by the government in 10 years.

* safe enough? Pretty much the only reason you don't have gated communities in France is because all of the places that rich people live in have been there for hundreds of years. If they could figure out a way of doing it, the 16th arrondisment of Paris would totally gate itself off.

* unemployment - yeah, I'll give you this one. I'm almost tempted to try and get myself fired, just so that I can spend three years funded by the taxpayer to start my own business. (not really, but that idea certainly removes any fear I have of getting fired).

* retirement - no reasonable person believes that people of my age or younger will get much of a retirement pension. If you're not taking steps to guarantee your own retirement at this point, your going to get a bad surprise at the end of your career.

* I'm not having kids, so parental leave gets me nothing

* massive tax breaks for nannies etc? well, in the sense that you can more or less claim their salary off your salary for tax purposes, I suppose that's true, provided you're actually making enough money to be able to take someone on in the first place (I personally have a housecleaner, but my flat is so small that she only works for 3 hours a week - at her hourly rate, that works out to a tax saving for me of around 1000E a year. Not exactly massive).

As always with government subsidies, they are just not as flexible as giving
people the money and letting them decide for themselves how they are going to
spend it. My salary is suppressed to pay for a whole lot of benefits that I
personally will never see. There is a case to be made to limiting government
subsidies to oly those activities that the government can do cheaper than
anyone else (maintaining roads, fire department, police department).

So why am I still in France if the deal is so raw? Well, personal reasons, and
I'm also enough of a lefty that I do see value in providing good education,
public transport and health services to everybody, so I don't resent those
taxes. But I'm willing to bet that a lot of people would decide otherwise if
they had the choice.

~~~
astrobe_
I might be biased, but I think we have the most beautiful motto in the world:

Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité.

No need to translate I think - except perhaps for the last word, which must be
understood as "solidarity", not just "brotherhood".

My situation is quite similar to yours. I dislike to depend on others, I'm
selfish in my own way, but I dislike it when people are struggling because
they don't have enough money to live. Just because they were born less lucky
than I, or because something terrible happened to them, or because they made
mistakes. I would find it hard to enjoy what I earned in the middle of a
shanty town.

So I don't moan and complain too much when I have to pay my taxes. I'm not
short of money anyway.

> But I'm willing to bet that a lot of people would decide otherwise if they
> had the choice

You would lose that bet. For the last 30 years at least people have elected
either socialists or moderate right wing representatives. Even N. Sarkozy
would be considered a lefty in the US.

------
fab13n
I overall agree, except for one important caveat: one of the main incentives
for high-tech investment in France is the "crédit d'impôt recherche", "tax
break for research". It's very effective, as it pays ~ 50% of salaries +
charges for employees performing R&D duty.

But the fiscal services systematically target those who take this tax break,
and it's pretty random whether they'll cancel it retroactively, up to 3 years
after you received it. For startups, which often spend most of their money on
R&D salaries, such a recall is often fatal. And qualifying for it makes or
breaks many business plans. So it adds a considerable risk to an activity
that's more than risky enough, in a country that already suffers from risk
averseness.

Unfortunately, the department of taxes & finances a.k.a. "Bercy" is where the
best graduates from ÉNA
[[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_nationale_d%27admini...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_nationale_d%27administration)]
go, and ÉNA is also the alma mater of most French politicians: finance civil
administrators often control politicians more than the other way around, so
the latter don't seem capable to control the formers' destructive power.

~~~
alain94040
True, but even without Credit Impot Recherche, the salary of a French engineer
is so much lower than in Silicon Valley, it's mind boggling. Labor is cheap in
France.

Now, if only the locals would get the culture of optimism that pervades
Silicon Valley, they'd be going somewhere. There was a story on HN just the
other day from a high-frequency trader moving to Silicon Valley. Lesson #1:
everyone collaborates and is helpful. Not making fun of you and telling you
that you are going to fail.

~~~
nickff
Would the relevant salary comparison not be between France and the USA,
instead of France vs Silicon Valley?

~~~
nakkiel
Depends. France has the same sort of salary diversity as the USA. Paris vs.
Bordeaux are almost two completely different worlds so while you have good
engineers in Bordeaux, their price tag is probably about 3 times cheaper than
their Paris equivalent.

------
aragot
French entrepreneur here.

It's called "communication channel overflow": When I used normal channels like
talking to my "deputee for French people living abroad", I got rejected based
on the tone. I feel like other channels would be the same: We don't get heard,
never, unless we strike or do mass demonstrations.

So I overflow my criticism to HN. When they have enough negative feedback, a
report will land on Hollande's desk and they'll decide what to fix.

That said, I still think the "autoentrepreneur" status in France is unbeatable
to start a business.

Edit: reworded.

~~~
ekianjo
> But I still think the "autoentrepreneur" status in France is unbeatable to
> start a business.

TO start a business a single owner, yes, but once it grows, you need to leave,
basically, or face tax-death.

~~~
aragot
Right, I once calculated the tax and social payments (incl. retirement, health
care and tax agent) for a 75k€ business without employee, and it was ~53k€.

You can't get rich in France. We hate rich people anyway, you'd be subjected
to all kinds of verbal violence.

~~~
kybernetyk
For comparison I just calculated the same for Germany and Poland (1 person
business, income tax, "gewerbe" tax for Germany, health care, no tax agent, no
retirement for Germany):

In Germany on 75,000 EUR profits you have to pay ~30,400 EUR and get to keep
~44,600 EUR. Total taxation rate at this level is ~40.5%. At 1,000,000 EUR
profits you get taxed ~49.5% and have to pay ~494,000 EUR taxes.

If you moved a few hundred km to the east to Poland which has an opt-in 19%
flat tax rate you would pay only ~15,000 EUR on 75,000 EUR profits and
~192,000 EUR on 1,000,000 EUR profits.

So France seems to be "worse" than Germany tax-wise. Something I wouldn't have
expected.

~~~
ekianjo
You should check out Belgium for fun :) If I remember correctly it's a little
worse than France, or about the same...

------
bluedevil2k
Ugh, seeing this quote from the article - "strict employment laws don’t kick
in until you have 50 employees: that’s how many WhatsApp had when it was
acquired for $19 BIllion." \- is everything going to be measured by WhatsApp
now? This week on HN I've seen WhatsApp used for valuations on car companies,
the duration from $0 to a $1B+ sale, the price of a user, and now this, using
them for...I'm not even entirely sure. Is he saying that a French startup can
easily be a $19B company while still being exempt from the employment laws? Is
that incredible wishful thinking on his part? It'd be like a Silicon Valley
startup saying "we don't worry about Obamacare costs at all, we'll have a $10B
valuation before we hit 50 employees".

~~~
astrobe_
> is everything going to be measured by WhatsApp now?

Since when are we responsible for other's misuse of an example or metaphor?

Whatsapp was less than 50 employees when it was bought, restrictive french
laws kick in when you reach 50 employees. This means that does those
constrains actually don't affect you when your business is taking off. It
looks like a valid remark to me.

> Is he saying that a French startup can easily be a $19B company while still
> being exempt from the employment laws?

It looks like it. Whatsapp wasn't making $19B, it was sold $19B.

Besides, when you reach 50 employees I don't think you can be considered a
startup anymore.

The interesting question with regard to this french bashing is: why do You
even care? Are they threatening You in some way?

~~~
mikeash
"Whatsapp was less than 50 employees when it was bought, restrictive french
laws kick in when you reach 50 employees. This means that does those
constrains actually don't affect you when your business is taking off. It
looks like a valid remark to me."

No, all it means is that those constraints wouldn't have affected WhatsApp
when their business is taking off. To extrapolate it beyond WhatsApp you have
to assume that WhatsApp was somehow representative, when it was clearly a
gigantic outlier.

------
rmason
Just had a conversation with a friend this week who spends a couple of months
a year in London. She told me that I wouldn't believe how amped up the startup
scene is there. After reading the NYT article now I understand why.

The French supporters of Francois Hollande can put all the spin they want on
it. But when the fifth largest city in your country is London then you've got
a problem.

------
pja
Pet peeve: It's _moot_ point, not mute point :)

[http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/moot_point](http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/moot_point)

~~~
mavhc
As moot point original meant the opposite of what people use it for today, it
would be better to use "mute point" and return "moot point" to its original
meaning

~~~
Dylan16807
Do you have a source on that? I mean I saw a cracked article claim that but it
was severely misrepresenting the various uses of moot and I could not find
_any_ references to 'mute point' being a real phrase.

~~~
pessimizer
I think that mavhc is suggesting that 'mute point' should be a new thing, and
'moot point' should refer to a point that has been mooted.

------
euphemize
Perhaps related, but I've been seeing more and more French entrepreneurs setup
shop here in Montréal in the last few years. There are similar problems in
regards to the bureaucracy and red tape (and language laws, which can be a
huge pain), but many I work with mention A) the state of the economy being
better here B) the social climate and cultural similarities to France C) the
proximity to the US and Silicon Valley, for funding.

