

The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008) - zaveri
http://www.theamericanscholar.org/the-disadvantages-of-an-elite-education/

======
hugh3
_Graduates of elite schools are not more valuable than stupid people, or
talentless people, or even lazy people._

That's a common enough platitude, but I'm not convinced that it's true.

Or rather, it's the sort of thing we like to pretend is true for the sake of a
functioning society (since nobody likes to discuss exactly _who_ is worth more
than whom) and everybody goes along with it. We'll admit extreme cases (like
Beethoven is worth more than some bum on a street corner) but shy away from
discussing it in any further detail lest we wind up obliged to cut that bum up
to give his organs to someone else.

I don't have a problem with this as a thing we all pretend is true, but I do
have a problem with the assertion that it's genuinely true.

(Unfortunately in order to even have this discussion I have to put on my
Nietzsche moustache and step outside the boundaries of polite society.)

~~~
aik
I believe the "platitude" is in all senses practical in that assigning worth
is only easy and fully accurate posthumously. Also, no person is so one-
dimensional that they can be accurately summed up by the singular adjectives
"stupid", "talentless", or "lazy" -- that's just not a realistic situation. A
lot of famous people throughout history were in fact poor bums on the street,
and are now held in very high regard by all social classes (perhaps it can
even be argued that the elite place more worth on them than the lower classes,
ironically).

~~~
GFischer
You mean like Diogenes? :)

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diogenes_of_Sinope>

------
jasonjei
A childhood friend who had gone to Harvard invited me to hang out with some
Harvard grads in SF two weeks ago. It was strange--as an outsider--to listen
to their college stories; they would talk about how they'd drive down to Yale
and scream "Harvard, Harvard!" and it was then, I realized, how little I had
in common with these grads.

I tried to talk to one of the Harvard grads, and asked him what he was doing.
Apparently he's working at the Sierra Club, and from his job description, his
role amounted to essentially a receptionist. And from talking to him, he
seemed disillusioned that his degree _didn't_ offer him all the benefits that
he believed he was entitled.

The Harvard elitism that come out a bit, if not intentionally. My friend was
trying to help out the bloke who couldn't understand why he couldn't get a
decent paying job as a _Harvard grad_ , and was telling him to do lucrative
tutoring jobs. He coached, "You're a _Harvard_ grad! Parents will fork a lot
of money to have a Harvard grad tutor their kids, hoping that their kids can
also attend Harvard!"

Maybe I'm oversensitive as an outsider, but I didn't feel much warmth or feel
that these Harvard educated fellows were very interested in talking to me. And
maybe they're blessed to have such camaraderie. After all, I am just one who
went to Arizona State/AFROTC with a vocational degree in CSE instead of a
liberal arts education.

It's not difficult for me to talk to grads of schools from "regular"
institutions, such as UCLA, Berkeley, USC, UC Irvine, et al, even with a
liberal arts education. But when trying to talk to grads of an "elite
education," I have found it considerably more awkward, and struggle to level
common ground. Usually it ends up in a lack of interest by both parties to
talk to each other, or smalltalk, waiting for the first opportunity to escape
from discomfort such as a convenient phone call or errand to run.

It's possible that this is just a typical case of in-group vs. out-group
happening, but I've never found myself so lost at words that I pretty much
conversed smalltalk the entire time.

~~~
pgbovine
_they would talk about how they'd drive down to Yale and scream "Harvard,
Harvard!" and it was then, I realized, how little I had in common with these
grads._

that in itself isn't necessarily a sign of 'ivy league' elitism ... it might
just be school spirit, like what college students in sports-focused colleges
do when there are games against rival colleges.

------
geebee
I read this article a while ago, and I had a reaction that I think has gelled
a little more since then. I think I take issue with the notion that elite =
ivy league (or similar institutions). It's true that ivies dominate the top
spots of the us news and world report undergraduate college rankings (where no
public university cracks the top 20) and tend to do well on rankings of top
professional school programs (especially mba and law), but interestingly, they
don't dominate the list of top graduate schools to the same extent (where
public universities do quite well), and they show up even less often on
rankings of top engineering schools.

In short, I think it's time we redefined what an elite college really is. The
question the writer poses is a very interesting one: are students at elite
colleges out of touch with the rest of society? But I'd like to see the same
question asked about the graduates of UC Berkeley, UCLA, Texas, Michigan,
Illinois, CMU, MIT, Stanford, Caltech, and other universities with top
engineering schools.

It's an open question, I'll admit. There probably is a reasonable case to be
made that the large public research institutions that have such excellent
engineering programs just aren't elite by the standards of the US (this isn't
China or France, after all). And I suppose you could also say that graduates
of these schools are every bit as out of touch (and as snobby as the author
implies) as grads of the top ivies...

~~~
klochner
The author doesn't mean Elite in the sense of "good" or "high quality". The
Elite he's referring to is the Upper Class.

The culture at the top Ivies is nothing like that at any of the schools that
you listed. State and tech schools have a lot more class diversity, and while
Stanford isn't state or tech, it seems to value diversity more than the Ivies.

. . . so the author isn't saying you get a better education (almost the
opposite) at an Elite University, just that you'll be surrounded by entitled
children of the wealthy, and coddled as such.

~~~
geebee
You're absolutely right that elite = ivy when you're talking about social
class, which clearly is what is going on here. What I'm trying to do is put in
a claim on the word.

Ever read Henry James's "The American"? It's a story from the late 1800s about
a wealthy American in Paris who, at one point, seeks to marry a young woman
from an aristocratic French family. The brother (I think) informs him that
there is a problem - "you are not noble". His reply (sorry, paraphrasing) is
"the devil I am not!" The brother becomes more serious and says "oh, I didn't
know that you had a title." The American says he doesn't have a title, but
he's putting in a claim on this whole "noble" thing...

I guess that's what I'm doing. I won't concede the term "elite" to a parasitic
upper class, any more than I'd give away the term "best and brightest" (oh,
you see, I'm _defining_ "best and brightest" to mean ivy league, hewh hewh").

I think that graduates of these schools should absolutely put in a claim on
the word "elite". We may come off as a little comical, like Henry James's
American... but in the long run, well look what happened to the French
aristocracy ;)

Oh, one quick thing - I agree with you that you're more likely to encounter
real economic diversity at the large state schools (even the top ones) than at
the ivies, but I still want to make sure I point out that it would be
extremely very unfair to suggest that ivy leaguers are a uniformly "parasitic
upper class" group. Hell, it would have probably even been _somewhat_ unfair
in 1958. It's definitely not fair now.

That said, there really is something about engineering - probably it's history
as more of a middle-class profession. I read that John Nash was deeply
disappointed to get a faculty appointment at MIT rather than Harvard out of
his PhD program (at Princeton, I think it was). The author of the biography
had to take an aside to explain to 21st century readers that at the time, the
math dept at MIT was still viewed somewhat as place where middle class
engineers learned their calculus, though it was in the midst of transitioning
into the elite school it is now (John Nash was the sort of acquisition MIT was
starting to make).

~~~
MediaSquirrel
As 2x UC Berkeley dropout and Columbia alum who financed his education by
working as a paramedic in the Bronx, I can unambiguously say that I know
EXACTLY what the author is talking about.

The Ivies offer you access to power in a way that even the best state schools
never can or will. There is a sense of entitlement, a "welcome to the ruling
class" sensibility that permeates the place. The Old Boys Club, indeed.

My experience is mainly New York, but the elite mentality runs deep.

And since switching coasts, I've left that behind. It feels great.

------
borski
What a great article. While I certainly don't agree with everything
Deresiewicz tries to say, I will echo one bit I found to be true at least in
my time at MIT (which is, incidentally, the only experience I have with an
'elite' university): there were far too many students with a myopic view of
where they were and what they wanted to accomplish.

Many of the students (and friends) with whom I interacted saw MIT as their
"final step" in a long life of achievements and accomplishments. After this,
they were "set for life." They just had to get through it. Then came the high-
paying consulting jobs, the fun research, the exciting leadership
opportunities, etc. It was all right there for them. Until it wasn't, because
the economy sank.

Many of those same people now took "less important" jobs just to get through
the economic slump. So few people thought about venturing out on their own, it
actually kind of disheartened me.

Don't get me wrong, there were still a ton of people trying to start their own
projects, think on their own, and whom looked at MIT as but a stepping stone
to propel them to be able to affect the world. Unfortunately, a lot of the
students also seemed to only care about making their money and living
comfortably.

On the other hand, I think this is a problem with our educational system in
general; not just the elite schools. I consider myself almost lucky to have
come from a fairly non-affluent family, since I grew up around one "class" of
people (mostly not-well-off immigrants) and got to experience interacting with
another at school.

MIT is probably not the worst offender in terms of not having any sort of
socioeconomic diversity, since admissions are all done need-blind and there
really are a lot of immigrants and no legacy or sports admissions, but the
issue still exists. I can only imagine that at schools where that is not the
case, this problem manifests itself in a much worse way.

------
jessriedel
This is a wealthy guy who spends all of his time with other wealthy people. He
shouldn't blame the college he went to for him being unable to communicate
with working class people. He wouldn't be any more skilled at this if he'd
gone to a middle-tier school; most Americans don't go to college.

(- Ivy alum)

~~~
mburney
Yep. I went to a non-ivy league college but nonetheless I didn't know how to
communicate with working class people either until I did a working class _job_
following graduation.

------
klochner
The author got a lot of things right, but I'm suspect of his main thesis -
that you can't relate to the lower class if you go to a private school. There
are few to no downsides to going to an elite school, other than cost.

That said, the benefits of top private schools are overstated.

The main benefit goes to those of average intelligence who would get
annihilated at a large state school - what the author refers to as an "endless
string of second chances."

You also make a lot more connections with people who will ultimately end up in
power positions, which makes life easier as you rise up the ranks.

If you're smart enough to be a top student at an Ivy League school, it really
doesn't matter much where you go.

~~~
gammarator
That's not his main thesis, that's his opening anecdote. His main point is
that the experience of elite education can shape one's values and expectations
in a way that are negative for the individual and for society.

------
JoeAltmaier
I've felt for years that school was run by those who were, when young, good at
school. Its inbred and to a certain degree, pointless.

There was nowhere in my life more bounded by ceremony and tradition. And now
that I'm out of it, and know for a certainty that precious little of it did me
the slightest good, I recommend to all young people who will listen: "You are
paying for schooling. Get out of it exactly what you find valuable, ignore the
rest. An ounce of passion is worth oceans of rote work"

------
Tycho
Ironically it took my many years of schooling simply to digest that very long
winded article. Knowing what bits to skip, to skim, to read carefully, to
remember etc.

------
mitko
As a student in MIT, I agree with the author that all the "accomplishments"
(such as SAT scores, A's) people at top-rated achieve make it harder to not
think of oneself as somebody better than the others. Because of the
environment and the admiration of many outside people I often times feel
intellectually superior to other people, even though I know very well I am
not.

I've observed many times that my friends who do not study in top universities
might react better in many real-life scenarios than me and many of my MIT
classmates.

Also, in one semester off from MIT I learned more things about life than in 4
years at college (where I learned about pressing buttons on a keyboard in
order to change what appears on the monitor).

My question to HN is: How "not to take myself so seriously"? I want to be able
to enjoy simple things in life without feeling that I am wasting my education.

------
Bricejm
It's true that the 'Ivy League' graduates many smart individuals, but does the
Ivy League actually make them smart. It's the inverse of "garbage in garbage
out". A top graduate at an Ivy league school would be just as smart if they
went to a small state school. The difference, and where most rankings come
from are the connections. Graduates from any Ivy League school generally
receive the best job offers (most money) even though there are a thousand
other graduates that are just as smart, but didn't go to a name brand school.
The Ivy League can only admit so many students. I graduated from a small
public university, but that doesn't mean I wasn't challenged during school. I
worked extremely hard both in the classroom and at my jobs. The author of this
article doesn't have a problem communicating with 'the working class', the
author chooses to have a problem.

------
joshrule
In addition to talking about the good and bad of elite educations,
Deresiewicz's piece also strongly praises the traditional liberal arts degree.
He seems to think it far more valuable than _more practical_ degrees. But, I'm
not convinced.

First, shying away from _practical_ studies reminds me of exactly the fallacy
that drove me to leave philosophy after I finished in undergrad. My experience
was very similar to what pg writes about in
<http://paulgraham.com/philosophy.html>. Asking the 'big questions' devolved
into quibbling over split hairs and avoiding useful, testable hypotheses that
could really make the world a better place (not that 'big questions' are bad,
but we should try solving them in useful ways, not randomly)

Also, the author seems to think that a _glorified form of vocational training_
is a bad thing. But, could it be possible to create an educational system
where vocational training creates the thinking man Deresiewicz wants? That is,
could an interest in say, programming, motivate studying history by examining
the development of mathematics and computing machines over time? Could it lead
to a study of economics through questions about the Pareto Principle or the
right way to offer our programs to the public (free, product, service, and so
on)? Could it lead to philosophy and psychology by asking if man is
potentially programmable and why certain types of programs can't be written
with our current model of computation?

In short, could vocational training take a singular interest and use it to
create the sort of individuals Deresiewicz decries elite schools for failing
to produce?

------
dennisgorelik
The author mentioned Yale university. I took a look at the web traffic graph:

<http://www.quantcast.com/yale.edu>

4 times drop in four years.

Could anyone explain why it happened?

~~~
dennisgorelik
I don't think Quantcast makes that big errors while measuring high-trafficked
web site.

There should be another explanation. Either Yale is losing popularity, or
students prefer to use other web resources while learning about Yale (e.g.
Facebook).

------
jdoliner
This article has popped up a few times (I think it's been on HN before) and
I've read it each time with increasing disgust. There's a pervasive attitude
amoung attendees of elite universities of feigned modesty, mostly it's fairly
innocuous and that's fine. In many cases it's genuine. But this is truly a new
level of feigned. The "hole" in the writer's education an educational topic,
it's a character trait. And this is a flaw he's developed by spending his
whole life assuaging his own insecurities by convincing himself it's true. Now
there's no doubt that elite universities are breading grounds for this type of
thought and students first encountering them must choose whether or not to
imbibe in the kool aid. Most do. It takes a very strong 17 year old to walk
into this type of society and call bullshit, but it does happen and when it
does we got authors who can write genuinely on this topic.

A wonderful example of such a work is J.R. Moerhinger's Tender Bar.

------
makeramen
This has popped up a few times on HN already, I wonder if there is an upper
bound to when you're allowed to repost an old article?

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=224861>

------
balding_n_tired
1\. Isn't this a repost?

2\. Maybe the plumber didn't feel like chatting while he worked.

------
protomyth
It must be this year's phrasing, but every time I hear the phrase "I can't /
we failed to communicate", it really means I don't think the person so far
under my station would understand.

------
known
I think American students should study, work and live in Chindia for at-least
2 years

------
klbarry
Great article. I think he puts downs, "The kid who’s loading up on AP courses
junior year or editing three campus publications while double-majoring" a bit
too much though. People who are very busy with various projects tend to also
be more introspective, in my experience. Good grades can just be indicative of
good time management and brightness, which are important in anyone who wants
to change the world.

~~~
aik
> People who are very busy with various projects tend to also be more
> introspective.

Interesting, I have always believed the opposite to be true just as often. I'm
not sure if I would make the connection that they are more introspective.
Introspection requires time alone for oneself to ponder life, not necessarily
so busy with external things to never leave room to ponder the inner.

Though I would agree that people like that are generally successful, however
whether they are truly happy is another thing completely. My experience is
that often they live to meet the expectations of others, which can never bring
happiness or lasting satisfaction.

