
Hams must remove repeaters from CA mountaintops or pay huge fees [pdf] - wrycoder
http://www.shastadefense.com/FAX-CalFireHamRadio20190923.pdf
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vvanders
This made the rounds a while back and was framed to be fairly clickbait[1].
From what I understand each agency pays into the tower operation and they just
want hams to do the same.

[1]
[https://mobile.twitter.com/OH8STN/status/1179637421308293120](https://mobile.twitter.com/OH8STN/status/1179637421308293120)

~~~
dmix
Why should they have to pay fees? These are entirely volunteer networks with
no commercial purpose.

I don’t see how this is clickbait unless the demands were reasonable.

If money is the problem then California can find far saner and better means
than this. I’m sure there are tons of analogies from similar situations with a
small subsidized subset being excluded from fees, many with far more
questionable reasoning.

~~~
baddox
You generally don’t get things for free just because you’re volunteering and
have perhaps some useful function to society. Ham operators still have to pay
for their radio equipment, after all. It’s not crazy that they would have to
pay for other things that cost money (like towers).

~~~
TimTheTinker
A well-run society recognizes the incredible value offered by volunteers, and
tries to help them succeed. Often that means giving them things for free when
possible (e.g. when the US government gives tax breaks to non-profit
organizations.)

In the software world, the equivalent is free accounts for open-source
projects at places like GitHub and TravisCI.

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rmason
Hams at their own expense create and maintain a statewide emergency
communication system and some government bureaucrat on a whim wants it all
disbanded.

So the next time a city or state needs ham volunteers to maintain
communications during an emergency they won't be able to do it. Even for
California that's pretty fouled up.

My local club had a partnership with the local Red Cross, had our own club
station and held meetings there for over sixty years. Then a new manager
decides he can use the room we were using in the basement and kicked the club
out. Sadly there was no appeal. I hope the California hams have better luck.

~~~
EdwardDiego
Here in my country, our emergency services and disaster response teams
maintain their own resilient radio communication capacity. This includes HF
capacity.

Does America not do that?

~~~
chillingeffect
In the southwest, the U.S. doesn't supply a decent set of emergency comms to
Native Americans, so volunteer hams supplement it.

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xxpor
A redditor explained the situation pretty well, without the histrionics:

[https://www.reddit.com/r/amateurradio/comments/dfn7tw/sate_o...](https://www.reddit.com/r/amateurradio/comments/dfn7tw/sate_of_california_demanding_amateur_repeaters_be/f34q0vh/?st=k1k51513&sh=2099bf5a)

~~~
xupybd
I've worked in commercial radio before. This is a bad idea. They're phasing
out an old system because it's too slow to be useful. Slow voice coms are
alway useful in an emergency. We setup a system to send plain text reports at
300 baud. It was fantastically fault tolerant and worked in terrible
conditions, like those in an actual disaster. It had very few parts required
and almost any computer that could emulate a serial port over usb could use
it.

I don't see how requiring high speed coms in an emergency is practical.
Keeping simple analogue links is the best way to make sure you can keep going.
It also keeps things simple. In some situations you have 30 year old radios
that have only been turned on 3 or 4 times a year in civil defence huts dotted
around remote areas.

I'm not into amature radio in any way but I just don't understand that call at
all.

~~~
xxpor
1200 baud email is extremely standard in EmComm ham radio using winlink. 1200
baud is still muuuuuuuuuch faster than voice and just as reliable. You can use
a regular repeater and email each other via simplex if necessary.

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jdkee
Having a redundant comm system in an area prone to destruction of telecom
infrastructure, e.g. fires and earthquakes, seems to be a no-brainer.

Removing them sees to be idiotic, at best. And callously reckless at the
worst.

~~~
vvanders
Honestly it depends a lot on the club, some hams are great to work with,
others are way out there on the whacker scale.

The hobby has a shitton of gatekeeping and people stuck in their ways. My last
club was pretty good but it really varies region to region.

~~~
EdwardDiego
We've had a lot of drama with our radio enthusiasts, especially after club
schisms when someone starts continuously broadcasting an offensive song on the
shared bands.

~~~
rmcpherson
I’ve never heard this happen on US ham bands. I’m sure it has but the FCC
takes violations seriously and will track down offenders.

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noodlesUK
The various local agencies have formal and informal arrangements with the
local radio clubs in most of these areas I’m sure. The ham radio community is
of immense help in emergency situations, and a well designed old school radio
repeater network is basically indestructible in a natural disaster. It’s
foolish to take away working comms that cost the state nothing for no reason.

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Junk_Collector
It's pretty telling when they want almost 10 grand, about half of which is
recurring, to draft and administer a lease without ever discussing what the
lease might entail.

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serf
it's worrisome when combative tactics (arbitrarily large fees) are employed to
reduce communication network availability, with little reason other than 'it's
no longer useful for the state.' .

One hates to extrapolate what could be meant by the statement.

Does anyone know of any practical (legitimate/good) reason why anyone would
want to dissolve this network?

~~~
kj4ips
I feel like I'm missing something, the document mentioned a lease, so I am
wondering if these repeaters reside on Cal fire owned property, or owned
towers. They're not exactly small pieces of equipment, besides the mast and
the actual radios, the filters (diplexer) take up quite a lot of space, and
there's likely a generator on site as well.

Regardless of land or tower ownership, the provided email doesn't have any
timeline, which is somewhat unprofessional when we're talking about something
that takes weeks to remove.

~~~
dragonwriter
> Regardless of land or tower ownership, the provided email doesn't have any
> timeline, which is somewhat unprofessional when we're talking about
> something that takes weeks to remove.

It also doesn't have actual lease cost, just some cost ranges for some
administrative fees associated with the lease. It seems to be an attempt to
determine if further discussion should be directed at developing a plan and
timeline for removal or at setting up a lease, not being a notice to pay or
leave by a set date.

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smkellat
California insists on following its own drummer.

There is a National Emergency Communications Plan available at
[https://www.cisa.gov/necp](https://www.cisa.gov/necp). Duly-licensed amateur
radio operators are discussed under AUXCOMM in the plan as a type of resource
states _typically_ choose to utilize. Again, California's needs are apparently
different than the other 49 states. More power to them, I suppose?

------
rolph
just skimmed thru the PDF and it seems, the ham repeaters are in the way of
somebody that wants to monetize something that is free and public.

"If you desire to enter into a formal agreement to operate and maintain said
equipment, you must complete and submit attached collocation application along
with fee as outlined on page one of application. There is cost associated with
getting an agreement in place. In addition to the technical analysis fee
($2500/application), there is DGS Lease admin cost associated (typically
between $3000-$5000) with preparation of lease. Also, there will be an annual
rent charge based upon equipment type/space."

2500$ tech analysis fee /aplication; 3000-5000 admin fee \- - annual rent

so 5.5 - 7.5 k just to pay administrative, then rent on top. i wonder what
would be said if repeaters reverted to a guy on a hilltop with two transciever
sets and some braincells.

~~~
kawfey
In my area we frequently do service events for races (foot, bike, and
autocross), and this is exactly what we do in the hills of the Mark Twain
forest in Missouri. It works great, and you don't even need braincells for
most of the event. Drive/Hike to a good peak, set up a station, and forget it
(until it breaks).

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canadaduane
This seems like a capricious and ill thought out decision. Does anyone have
more context that might shed more light?

~~~
PhasmaFelis
Seems to be misleading clickbait:
[https://mobile.twitter.com/OH8STN/status/1179637421308293120](https://mobile.twitter.com/OH8STN/status/1179637421308293120)

~~~
Junk_Collector
Nothing in the link is clickbait though. It's a town repeater station being
told to vacate land because "advancing technology" has rendered it's benefit
to the state obsolete. They then request $7500 to perform a study to draft a
lease and $5000 a year to administer that lease once the amount is determined.

Most of the link is the site operator's response to the administration and
it's all very level headed and well thought out.

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jlgaddis
Maybe those guys who just made millions selling off part of 44/8 can pitch in
a few bucks to help cover the fees.

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driverdan
Is there a site with the background on this? There must have been more
communication prior to the single email included in this PDF. Something other
than the Shasta Defense site which is impossible to read.

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someguydave
California might be in a stronger position to maintain their own institutions
if the state wasn't more than $400 billion in debt. Perhaps the state
government actually needs volunteer help...

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dmix
Well written letter. I hope this gets the attention they deserve.

Any chance of this hitting NYT or one of the big California publications?

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Mathnerd314
Page with some other links:
[http://www.shastadefense.com/ShastaEmergencyRadio.htm](http://www.shastadefense.com/ShastaEmergencyRadio.htm)

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edoo
Don't forget nearly every law forcing people to comply at gunpoint is passed
by a special interest group representing corporate profit motives. If there
are any real investigative reporters left I bet the money trail could be
followed and I wouldn't be the least surprised if there is a company in the
wings looking to supplant the volunteer system for a chunk of taxpayer money.

