
To Control Its Destiny, Facebook Bets Big on Hardware - state
https://www.theinformation.com/articles/to-control-its-destiny-facebook-bets-big-on-hardware?pu=hackernewshmb8vq&utm_source=hackernews&utm_medium=unlock
======
dang
As with previous articles, The Information has unlocked this one for HN
readers. Thanks!

[https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...](https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20%22the%20information%22%20unlock&sort=byDate&type=comment)

There's a related thread at
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21836862](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21836862).

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caseymarquis
VR is neat, but I'm absolutely inspired by the idea of improved human-computer
interfaces like those described and their more mundane uses. We have eye
tracking, the ability to read electrical signals and positioning from hands or
head, the ability to feedback to the body through vibration (or sound), and
existing high quality peripherals like keyboards for high precision entry and
correction. There has to be a way to combine all of this into a better vim.

A couple binary inputs for CTRL and SHIFT from reading brainwaves seems
doable. Feedback on whether they're active from different high frequency
vibrations on the hands, neck, or ears.

There are lots of easy wins here if I can just push a couple mental buttons
with my brain. Trigger scrolling or text selection based on eye movement.
Select a buffer or macro based the mental buttons I'm pushing. You basically
get a binary digit for every mental button you're capable of simultaneously
tracking.

I'm home sick, and maybe it's the fever talking, but I think I'm going to do
some basic research and start hacking something together. Very small chance of
success, but I want mental modifier keys with vibrational feedback!

~~~
_Microft
Summary: BCIs are still bad, use foot pedals as suggested in the sibling
comment.

I don't want to rain on the parade but BCI (brain computer interfaces here EEG
that is interpreted as input for something) is far from being usable for
everday things. The technology sort of works but it is slow and unreliable.
Most reliable method was P300 [0] which requires several repetitions of a
signal someone decided to select. Entering letters for example can be done by
flashing rows and columns of a matrix of these letters and concentrating on
the one to choose. It's reactive in the sense as it will only trigger when an
expected stimulus is detected. A lot less reliable was a system trained to
recognize imagined motions (raising the left or right leg or arm as different
categories) and worst method I saw was a simple feedback loop between EEG for
moving something on the screen in one of two directions. This rarely worked
even though it was a simple binary choice. Any switch will be better than this
for now.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P300_(neuroscience)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P300_\(neuroscience\))

~~~
caseymarquis
Totally fair. There's a few things I'd like to point out:

    
    
      * I get to push the EEG button with just my brain, which is neat and fun.
      * I get to build multiple high resolution EEGs into something that doesn't look terrible like a pair of headphones or a hat, which is fun (yet flammable).
      * I play a few instruments (most recently bought a violin, which I'm still terrible with). It took years to become good at each instrument. I assume that it would take years to become good at using a BCI and properly adjust it to my brain.
      * I'm working on this with the initial assumption that I'm most likely going to fail, but I'm going to have a good time.
    

Edit: * It also gives me an excuse to work on this:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21661567](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21661567)

~~~
_Microft
I'm neither a doctor not a psychologist but here is a wild guess: I would
assume that it takes about as long to train yourself to work with a BCI as it
takes to e.g. learn to reliably wiggle one ear, raise an eyebrow, just any
voluntary movement that you do not control yet. Reasoning: in both cases you
would have a feedback loop and would need to learn to reliably create the
appropriate output and that it does not matter a lot whether the output goes
to actual muscles or via EEG to trigger a response.

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deltron3030
FB is kinda badly positioned when it comes to man-machine interfaces, not
because of their technical capability, but the lack of trust that is needed
for societal acceptance in that space. People who initially supported Oculus
wouldn't have done so if it came out being from FB, they wouldn't have gotten
over the initial hump.

I think that this is one of the reasons why Apple bets so heavily on privacy,
they had a much better long term vision when it comes to wearables and man-
machine interfaces in general. If Cook distances Apple from China they have
such a big advantage there, if not FB will use Apples connection with China to
their advantage.

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jdsully
This is the age of vertical integration in technology. Truly astounding to
see, and not something we've witnessed much of historically.

Personally I think a lot of it is being driven by the comoditization of
advanced chip fabrication. Now with TSMC you can actually have better
manufacturing capabilities than Intel. A situation we've not been in for over
30 years.

~~~
artyomavanesov
> Personally I think a lot of it is being driven by the commoditization of
> advanced chip fabrication.

That's an interesting perspective. With mobile device chip manufacturing being
modularized, Facebook is able to integrate forward with the end user by
combining software (i.e. their portfolio of apps) with consumer electronics.

Aggregation theory at work: [https://stratechery.com/2015/aggregation-
theory/](https://stratechery.com/2015/aggregation-theory/)

------
artyomavanesov
There's no getting around the fact that developing AR technology requires
substantial investment in R&D. Only companies such as Facebook, ones that
employ some of the best engineers and also have a strong incentive to make
that investment, are able to pull it off.

Whatever product comes out of Facebook under its current business model will
be optimized for serving ads. Not necessarily serving the user.

This in itself is not bad, as it will still stimulate the growth of an
ecosystem where developers can create products with different business models.

~~~
twobat
And as such they will not do it because people don't use such devices
currently. It needs to be the other way around: have the devices, people start
using them more and more, and only then come Google and Facebook to destroy
the system with ads.

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mark_l_watson
I don’t want to sound mean spirited, but I don’t really like or trust FB. I
would check my feed briefly once or twice a month and post something whenever
I finished a book and wanted to announce that.

My attitude changed when I bought an Oculus Go and a week later when I bought
an Oculus Quest. These devices use the FB platform, and all the videos that I
now upload to FB can now be watched in the VR theater on the Oculus devices.

So basically, the Oculus products are so good that I decided to give FB
another chance and I use FB a bit more often now.

EDIT: and the Star Wars Vader Immortal trilogy on the Oculus Quest is my
favorite entertainment experience ever, including the industrial strength VR
experiences I used to work on. My respect to the teams that did the Vader
Immortal material.

------
choward
So you all have a subscription to theinformation.com? Wow. I can't just buy a
subscription for every random "news" site that appears on hacker news.

~~~
ravenstine
I don't get why news sites don't have a "coin slot" where I can insert a few
quarters if I like an article and get a pass to read that day's edition.

~~~
arcturus17
I've encountered exactly that feature multiple times and I've never used it
because god knows I'm not creating an account to give a site 0.99 and read an
article. Friction.

Maybe if someone did it as a layer on top of news sites (like Google/FB
login)... _Maybe_ ...

~~~
ravenstine
> god knows I'm not creating an account to give a site 0.99

Who says you have to create a new account on every site? A cookie set after
the payment processor has completed is all you need.

~~~
majewsky
That will create a ton of angry customers who had their cookies auto-deleted
e.g. because of Incognito. Support costs will outweigh the few pennies earned.

Especially with a tech-ninded crowd, relying on the persistence of cookies is
completely unworkable because of the large percentage of users with extensions
that block or wipe cookies eagerly.

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saagarjha
It's interesting how a number of Facebook engineers are willing to comment on
what they work on, while the company itself refuses to provide any official
statements.

~~~
nrp
You can assume anyone named and quoted in an article like this is speaking
officially on behalf of the company they are working for, with some level of
preparation and filtering by their Comms team.

------
neiman
Where are we standing with open XR? Especially equipment, including
controllers?

I love XR (=VR/AR/MR), but I still didn't manage a good easy open source way
to do that.

~~~
onlyrealcuzzo
What is MR?

~~~
neiman
Mixed reality

~~~
xenospn
Doesn't AR also mean Mixed since it's augmented?

~~~
ludwigschubert
I think that’s a _really_ fair question! xD

I’ve heard “mixed reality” being used to refer to the continuum between
reality - augmented reality - virtual reality. In the above question I’d read
it as asking about the state of problems particularly pertaining to the
transitions along this continuum. (Made up example: of you solve locomotion in
VR by putting people on moving belts, a problem in MR would be how to
transition someone from walking around in unobstructed reality to walking in
VR. I don’t know if that’s a real problem—please take it just to illustrate
what I mean.)

Edit: Wikipedia’s article on MR includes a whole section on “differences in
terminology”! \o/
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_reality](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_reality)
They also use the word “continuum”, but don’t seem to directly back up my
further claims about using the word to refer to problems arising specifically
at the interface of AR/VR.

~~~
llbowers
I believe Mixed Reality was a term coined by Microsoft to differentiate their
products, basically a marketing term.[1]

[1][https://www.vox.com/2015/7/27/11615046/whats-the-
difference-...](https://www.vox.com/2015/7/27/11615046/whats-the-difference-
between-virtual-augmented-and-mixed-reality)

------
tessting
Does anyone think AR has the potential to do in the next decade what phones
did in this last one?

~~~
npo9
I think it has the ability to do more once it is sufficiently miniaturized.
Small to the point that it’s not much different than wearing eye glasses.

Glasses can make a viral and sticky form factor that we already have centuries
of experience with. If we can build an AR glasses product people want to wear
then we have the potential to greatly increase the amount of digital
information a human sees and processes. This information can be addictive,
like smartphones, and of high utility, like smartphones.

