
American Airlines Accidentally Let Too Many Pilots Take the Holidays Off - huac
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/11/29/567286235/oops-american-airlines-accidentally-let-too-many-pilots-take-off-the-holidays
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moonka
>We have reserve pilots to help cover flying in December, and we are paying
pilots who pick up certain open trips 150 percent of their hourly rate — as
much as we are allowed to pay them per the contract

Interesting that there is a maximum rate.

>In a post to its website, the union warned its members that because
"management unilaterally created their solution in violation of the contract,
neither APA nor the contract can guarantee the promised payment of the premium
being offered."

Looks like the pilots trust AA less than I do when they promise vouchers.

~~~
maxxxxx
"we are paying pilots who pick up certain open trips 150 percent of their
hourly rate "

In most tech companies they would maybe give you an extra pizza but certainly
no extra pay.

~~~
mgraczyk
Starting compensation at competitive tech companies is already higher than
150% of airline pilot compensation. Looks like a pilot with 10 years
experience at AA makes 120k. An engineer with 10 years experience at Google
makes around 300k. There are also far more engineers at competitive tech
companies than there are airline pilots.

I'd gladly trade an occasional 1.5x hourly bonus for a 2.5x salary.

~~~
regularize
The hours are a bit different too. I don't think many people working at Google
making 300k per year are working only 900 hours per year.

[http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2016/03/09/airline-
pi...](http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2016/03/09/airline-pilot-pay/)

"Pilots at US carriers can work up to 100 hours per month and up to 1,000
hours per year, though in practice most pilots are going to fly closer to 900
hours per year.

For example, a 12th year captain on the 777, 787, or A330, is making $293 per
hour. At 900 hours per year, that’s ~$264,000 per year. That doesn’t include
things like their flight benefits and per diem pay (~$2.80 for every hour
they’re gone on an international trip)."

I can see this devolving though. They're really apples and oranges industries;
there are too many differences for a straight comparison.

~~~
gaius
Aircrew are only technically "working" once the cabin doors are locked and the
plane is taxiing to the runway, until the doors unlock at the other end.
That's why the hours look low. But obviously there is a lot to be done outside
of those times.

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jimnotgym
Well this is crying out for a high tech solution. Paper holiday chart as a
service. For a fixed monthly fee of $10 per employee I will send them an
annual holiday chart they can put on their wall. There is the premium version
which comes with little coloured stickers.

~~~
flerchin
Crew scheduling is complex. At the large airline I used to work for (not AA),
they ran network solvers that took months to optimally resolve. Intermediate
solutions were available, but the constraints of union contracts, labor laws,
the location of people, and the changing schedule of flights meant that
optimally solving for minimum labor costs, and impact to our crews' lives, was
not trivial.

~~~
jimnotgym
I wonder how far away we are from self flying planes? Whilst there is the
added problem of the third dimension over cars, perhaps this domain suffers
less from the problem of lots of disorderly users in the same space?

~~~
MengerSponge
It'll never happen. Modern planes are mostly self-flying, but you _must_ have
a human expert able to intervene if something goes wrong.

[https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/children-of-the-
magen...](https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/children-of-the-magenta-
automation-paradox-pt-1/)

Actually, let me correct that. We already have self-flying planes. They're
called drones! We don't use them to transport anything as valuable as humans
though.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _you must have a human expert able to intervene if something goes wrong_

Similar things were said about cars. Humans make mistakes at certain rates, in
predictable as well as novel situations. When the autopilot performs, on
average, better, humans will become a safety liability.

~~~
MengerSponge
The autopilot has to outperform trained experts with hundreds of flight hours
and an exceptionally high code of personal conduct.

Self driving cars have to outperform the average person who drives like a
100-year-old blind dog who’s texting while driving and drinking a smoothie.
Also, their failure mode is easier and much less expensive.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
It’s a difficult problem that we have not solved. But you said “must”. That’s
a strict word to use for a problem that can be solved within a decade or two.

~~~
yladiz
As someone who isn't afraid of flying (except in the case where the pilot has
to suddenly drop the airplane due to turbulence) I still wouldn't trust a
pilotless airplane until it's safer then with a pilot, which will be very
difficult to prove. I feel also that I'm not alone and many people who fly
would be extremely wary of a pilotless system. On the other hand, I would be
much more likely to trust a self driving car. The main reason is that, if a
self driving car malfunctions, the risk of my death is present but not
absolutely guaranteed and with all of the safety features in a car it's likely
I would still be alive after a crash, even at high speeds. A plane that has an
autopilot malfunction, with no human present, without changes to the safety
during a crash, would be essentially guaranteed to kill everyone on board.
Until a plane can crash from the sky without killing all passengers in most
scenarios, I wouldn't fly in a pilotless airplane.

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mig39
Do they use the same software as Ryanair?

[http://www.bbc.com/news/business-41298931](http://www.bbc.com/news/business-41298931)

~~~
jakub_g
Ryanair's problems are due to the fact that they were obliged to change their
holiday year to follow European regulations, and they postponed this change
for too long (to milk as much money from lucrative summer period). This, plus
the fact that now many pilots are/will be soon over their allowed Flight Time
Limitations.

[https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-
advice/ryanair...](https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-
advice/ryanair-cancellations-flights-why-cancelled-truth-latest-a7953251.html)

~~~
baby
They also were forced because there were strikes in France.

I got my flight cancelled because of that but got ~400$ in compensation.

BTW the exact same thing happened to Easyjet. My gf’s flight from barcelona to
London got cancelled and she had to find a place to stay for one more day and
a different flight. Easyjet refuses to refund or compensate her, mentioning
strikes in France. Same shit as Ryanair, different reactions.

Anybody knows what are our recourse?

~~~
0x00000000
When Spirit's pilots striked, they told me my flight was "delayed or
cancelled" (huge difference there first of all) then wouldn't show the actual
status until 24 hours before departure at which time they removed the ability
to pick a different flight. They literally took my money, cancelled my flight,
then refused to give any information or a new flight or refund. Straight
robbed. Afterwards they offered everyone something like a $100 voucher that
had to be used in 60 days so I said fuck that. I had screenshots of everything
and their support was nonexistent since they had cancelled so many flights and
it was absolute chaos. I disputed it with my bank which was successful after
about 3 months. I am in the US, not sure how disputing is with non-US banks
and companies.

~~~
visarga
I'm just thinking: you'd probably never be able to buy a ticket from that
company again, and possibly other companies, if they see you charged back.
It's pretty unusual to charge back to an airline, it's usually something that
happens with shitty online stores.

~~~
0x00000000
Yeah I considered that and I am fine with it. But with a debit card dispute it
is not like with credit card or paypal where they just take the money back
from you and say too bad. My bank temporarily gave me a refund and then starts
an arbitration process with the company and if it succeeds will let me keep
the refund.

------
rdl
I'd hate to work at a company (as employee or management) with such bad labor
relations that "we screwed up on scheduling" can't be resolved reasonably.

"If we offer your a bonus, you might not get paid the bonus" either means the
management is horrible/dishonest or the union are assholes and bitter about
being excluded from negotiations, or more likely, both.

~~~
ThrustVectoring
The entire point of a union is to prohibit members from making deals that are
individually better but worse for members as a whole. The union here is in
principle correct for wanting to be able to keep pilots from selling "fix the
scheduling" too cheaply back to the airline.

~~~
ddnb
Stuff like this blows my mind from a european perspective, here in Belgium you
certainly make individual deals that are better, here unions are to support
you when you are in the weaker position of negotiation.

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notjustanymike
This is the one time an accidental "drop database;" would be welcomed by
management.

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rb666
Seems these are not really new issues, shitty software is shitty:

[http://www.star-telegram.com/news/business/aviation/sky-
talk...](http://www.star-telegram.com/news/business/aviation/sky-talk-
blog/article115706413.html)

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coo1k
Just curious, technically what stops AA from simply cancelling the approved
holidays? I'm not saying they should, just want to know can AA or any employer
for that matter cancel a granted time off? Are there any legal implications
for that?

~~~
tyingq
Union work rules. Pilot unions have a lot of leverage.

~~~
rtpg
also empathy. Better to have a willing workforce than forcing them to fly, in
the long term.

I imagine no one at AA is wringing their hands in glee at this situation

~~~
tyingq
I'm skeptical. I suspect a very different outcome it it were a different, non
union area of workers at AA.

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Xenos_Ender
Curious... considering the consolidation of the airlines industry, wouldn't
that affect the ability for the market to absorb the excess demand? (Assuming
the other major airlines are saturated...)

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PrimalDual
I’ve wondered lately how far away we are from automated air travel especially
with the impending advent of self-driving cars. I understand that it’s a
technological hurdle to get to the level of reliability and robustness
required to trust hundreds of lives to a machine. But I wonder if self-driving
cars will change people’s perspective on it. I also don’t know what the
unsolved problems in the area are.

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therockspush
I wonder how many of these pilots planned to fly AA flights to get to their
vacation destination.

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xor1
Why isn't there a bigger push to hire more pilots? Especially when you
consider how badly the American pilot industry needs diversification. Seems
like a no-brainer to me.

~~~
Aaronn
There is a massive shortage of pilots. Right now pilots are being hired at
regional carriers and flowing through to the mainline carriers extremely
quickly.

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peterburkimsher
American Airlines are having problems with pilots taking off... the holidays,
not the planes.

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bogomipz
So the same widely publicized "glitch" that affected Ryan Aira couple is now
affecting American Airlines in the US? Seems suspicious.

Also the Ryan Air glitch didn't cause this to register with anyone in
management at American Airlines when it was big news a few months ago?

~~~
kijeda
It seems like the inverse of the Ryanair situation. There, they needed their
pilots to take vacation en masse to remain in compliance, here they need
pilots to not take vacation.

~~~
bogomipz
Yes but it's the same basic math in both cases.

Equally egregious given that these companies are essentially in the logistics
business.

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NTDF9
Did they use NoSql to pull their pilot records?

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simonjgreen
Same thing happened to Ryanair recently as well.

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nikosl7
Nobody ran the feasibility checker at the very end?

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XR0CSWV3h3kZWg
Who uses ya'll as opposed to y'all? What would ya'll even be an abbreviation
for?

~~~
unethical_ban
As a kid I saw it both ways. Like "ya all" shortened to ya'll.

I agree that "you all" shortened to "y'all" is the appropriate form.

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goldesel
Imagine if this was United Airlines: They'd send security staff to the homes
of vacationing pilots and have them forcibly escorted back into the cockpit,
ha!

