

Ask HN: review my startup Wiki-OS, the first webOS developed the wiki way - happyjoe

http://www.wiki-os.org<p>This is the first web OS that is developed the wiki way.<p>Every window and every major component has an "Edit" button that allows end-users to instantly access the corresponding source code. A built-in IDE allows making changes to the applications. The changes are instantly propagated to the other users, and they are displayed by order of popularity.<p>This "wiki-like" system makes it very easy to reuse code from other applications, to share common components, and to build upon others' work instead of often reinventing the wheel. Furthermore, initial developers of an application can easily hand over development to the community, as integration is based on popularity mechanisms instead of manual work.<p>The current "Developer Preview" version is based on the .NET Framework, but we are working to support other platforms as well, including Mac OS X.<p>A 40-second video overview is available at:
http://www.wiki-os.org/what_is_wiki_os.htm<p>Thank you in advance for your feedback and advice.
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slater
"We are currently working to support your operating system (please check back
in a few weeks).

In the meantime, to enter Wiki-OS, please navigate to this website using
Windows XP, Windows Vista, or Windows 7."

Seriously? Like, really seriously? You guys like irony, yes?

~~~
jacquesm
Second that. Platform independence should be #1 on your list of priorities.

It's a dupe as well by the way:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=712242>

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happyjoe
I know that on HN a majority are on Mac or Linux, but Windows is still a big
platform. But yes, we know it's a major problem and it will be fixed very,
very soon.

~~~
slater
Fix major problems first (yes, this really IS a major problem), THEN re-
submit. For the third time.

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mixmax
No it isn't. There are lots of very successful programs that only run on one
platform and make money.

If you as a timestrained startup start developing for multiple platforms
before you've got the resources to do so on the other hand _then_ you have a
problem.

It's all about resources and business.

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netweirdo
This "sounds cool" at first - but when you think about it (assuming it's
possible) the overlap between developers and users would probably drive users
crazy.I'm tempted to say that users don't want to "edit" the operating
system....but that would be a bad assumption - who knows what users want.

You would probably have to set this up so there is a some kind of demarcation
between people who want the "role" of user or developer .. and the
intermediate roles. You need to be able to use it simply without wanting to
edit it.

Also, if it's "WikiOs" - why the fu __do I need Windows?

~~~
psawaya
It seems like whenever you give web users collaboration tools (with proper
security/vandalism protection), they often exceed most expectations of what
they can accomplish. If someone told you about Wikipedia before it went
online, could you have guessed it would grow to be the resource it is today?

Granted, most of the people who use Wikipedia aren't article editors, but
that's okay, and I could see most Wiki-OS users being there to just use the
apps, with a minority of devoted developers. Personally, I think this is a
really cool idea

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crabl
Congratulations on successfully crashing my GMA driver; I think that's the
first time I got a BSOD in Windows 7 :)

Regardless, I think the real problems with the whole idea of a "web OS" are
the fact that it doesn't actually do anything remotely OS-like (besides
launching applications and interfacing with the browser) and that the market
for a product like this is so crowded that you really need to innovate in
order to stand out (frankly, wiki-based development isn't "enough").

However, I do think that the "wiki approach" to application development has
some merit: personally, I would much rather see this concept being integrated
into an existing open-source system like Linux, however, it would need to be
able to play nicely with version control, among other things.

All in all, I think it's a good concept and an interesting approach, and I am
looking forward to seeing what comes out of it.

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ErrantX
Didnt this get submitted a few months back - and I do recall seeing the same
red message then...

EDIT: sorry wasn't trolling - I meant this identical message :) I had deja-vu.
I only ask because I cant see a difference?

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lincolnq
I like the idea. I can't try it under Linux (even though it's .NET based? can
it run on Mono?) So I'll just give you a few thoughts.

Security? If changes to apps are "instantly propagated to other users", what's
to stop me from editing an app so that it grabs another user's personal data
when they next run it? You probably want a model more like Github where anyone
can fork and pull, but not push to other users.

YouOS was YC-funded and failed, right? Why did they fail and how are you going
to do better?

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misuba
Pretty decent work for what it is, but nobody wants to develop for a so-called
web OS. Instead of building a big thing that only exists to be a framework for
other things, you'd do better building something that has usefulness on its
own, but can also take advantage of your wiki-coding stuff.

I'd recommend taking your code-editor app and replacing the web-OS bit with
that. Then, instead of OS-and-apps, you do editor-and-extensions, applying
your wikiable-app stuff to the extensions.

Or, instead of an in-browser code editor extensible with a web ecology of C#,
do a similarly extensible email/groupware app. Or a collaboration space a la
Sharepoint/Clearspace.

Or hell, do HyperCard. A blank space for slapping down fields and buttons,
writing code into them all, and packaging up the whole shebang into something
that others can in turn include and build on.

Any of those'd be exciting. Web OSes, though? I already have an OS and it
works fine.

"Make Something People Want."

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happyjoe
Clickable link: <http://www.wiki-os.org/what_is_wiki_os.htm>

~~~
jacquesm
Nice trick to get around the double submission lock...

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alain94040
Well, one was a random submission from someone else, the other is a Ask HN for
advice from the author.

That doesn't sound like abuse to me :-)

~~~
jacquesm
I didn't say it was abuse, just a nice trick. I was wondering why he didn't
put the link in the submission at first.

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s3graham
\--------------------------- chrome.exe - Unable To Locate Component
\--------------------------- This application has failed to start because
xpcom.dll was not found. Re-installing the application may fix this problem.
\--------------------------- OK \---------------------------

~~~
s3graham
OK, just tried it on FF35 and IE7. IE7 gets a runtime error. FF loads and the
UI comes up, but there's no text visible (on what looks like the "Start" menu,
and a largish box with expandable bits on the right. Vista x64 in case that
matters.

~~~
s3graham
Sorry to keep talking to myself. I kept the FF window open and bizarrely,
after reloading the IE (since I assumed that one _ought_ to work) the fonts
showed up in the FF instance too.

Launched a few apps, and it seems that any fonts (/sizes?) that haven't been
used by IE aren't visible in FF. (That's my W-A-G anyway)

~~~
s3graham
Wow, this is really cool! I don't know what I need it for exactly, but it's
quite impressive.

Intellisense in .cs editor please. :)

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Chickencha
This looks like a pretty cool project, but the lack of Linux support is a deal
killer for me.

How does it handle vandalism? It seems to me that vandalism could be a lot
more devastating in this environment than in, say, Wikipedia.

~~~
happyjoe
For most apps, such as a calculator or a 3D game, vandalism is not a very big
problem because:

\- there is no sensitive data to steal

\- there is low motivation to vandalize (whereas some wikipedia articles are
highly controversial)

\- it requires more effort to vandalize an application (the code is not saved
if there is a syntax error) than to vandalize a Wikipedia article.

\- the sandbox in which the applications run ensures that the user's computer
is not accessible from the application.

However, for applications that manipulate personal data, there is indeed a
challenge. At present, sensitive portions of the OS require moderators
approval in order to be modified. We are also working to implement code access
security systems to address this issue. But for the time being, we indeed
recommend not entering personal or sensitive information.

~~~
omail
I am also a Linux user and have a few questions.

> there is no sensitive data to steal

What would I use this for? Is it simply a system to propagate programs to
users? (Collaborative software development?) Will my data be on the WikiOS or
on my hard drive?

> there is low motivation to vandalize (whereas some wikipedia articles are
> highly controversial)

Motivation can not be predicted in advance. If I make a program, could not a
competitor add a change that "accidentally" introduces a security hole?

> sensitive portions of the OS require moderators approval in order to be
> modified

What would you define as sensitive?

> We are also working to implement code access security systems to address
> this issue.

What is your planned security model?

I like the fact that its is sandboxed from the host. Can a program on the
WikiOS interact with host programs and if so, to what degree?

~~~
happyjoe
> Will my data be on the WikiOS or on my hard drive?

The sandbox allows for OpenFileDialog and SaveFileDialog, so you can directly
access user-specified files on the hard drive.

There is also an online storage, but it is currently in the alpha stage. For
the moment we recommend using the open/save dialogs and work with local files.

> If I make a program, could not a competitor add a change that "accidentally"
> introduces a security hole?

A competitor may indeed commit acts of vandalism, just like on any other web
2.0 site. However, we work hard to ensure that such illegal acts cannot - by
design of the system - lead to security holes.

> What would you define as sensitive?

Currently, all the classes that are involved in the boot sequence (from the
startup to the moment you see the desktop) are marked as "critical" and can
only be modified by moderators. Furthermore, the "Code Editor" and the
"History" applications are also marked as "critical" so that it is always
possible to undo vandals changes.

> Can a program on the WikiOS interact with host programs and if so, to what
> degree?

No, a program on Wiki-OS cannot interact with programs running on the host
machine, except through the OpenFileDialog, the SaveFileDialog, and a few
other very controlled features of the sandbox.

------
weirdwes
Seem pretty cool to me. I've never really toyed around in the WebOS
development space, so I'm not really sure what your competition looks like.

I'm a bit rusty, but I spent a little bit writing a Font Dialog and modifying
the default Notepad to use it. I think the entire premise of allowing
users/devs to edit and create apps is a really great idea.

My feedback so far would be more documentation of the Core classes, unless
those are intentionally off limits for now, and figuring out how to clean up
the dozens of test apps cluttering up the menus. :)

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die_sekte
What's the point of this? Which need does it solve? Why should I use it?

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cnlwsu
listed as open source, I cannot find it anywhere. there a
project/contributions page?

~~~
happyjoe
Yes, you can access the list of projects and contributions by clicking "Edit
Project..." from the "Applications" menu inside Wiki-OS.

For example, the window manager and the taskbar source code can be found in
the project named "WindowManager".

You can also see the list of contributions (sorted by date) by launching the
"History" application. For the list of changes of a specific project, open a
project in the Code Editor and then click "Social" -> "View history of
changes".

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vicaya
Call me old school, but I don't like having desktop environment in a browser
(webtop sounds fine to me) to be called an OS. An OS is much more than that.

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snprbob86
I added word wrap to notepad! (well, less the horizontal scrollbar... a quick
web search shows that is bugged in Silverlight) I'm not sure if simply saving
it counts as publishing it, or what?

That was surprisingly easy and fun. I think you've got something here, but it
clearly has a long way to go.

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jodrellblank
\--------------------------- Core Error \--------------------------- There was
an error in "Core.Dynamic.LoadType": Could not load file or assembly
'<https://www.wiki-os.org/Components/RootXAMLControl.dll> or one of its
dependencies. The system cannot find the file specified.

Please report the error to the administrators. \--------------------------- OK
\---------------------------

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rawr
Since the Vista-esque frames around the windows are proprietary content you'll
need to redo them before deployment unless you're fond of Microsoft lawsuits.

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rawr
You can tell it's still early in development, but even now it works better
than Linux!

(ducks)

~~~
gvb
So you tried it on linux, and it didn't work?!!! :-P

