
Adrian Carton de Wiart: The unkillable soldier - gadders
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-30685433
======
doktrin
> Soldiers like Carton de Wiart are a real example for troops serving today.
> It's quite sad that having sacrificed so much his story isn't particularly
> well-known.

de Wiart was clearly a man of superhuman grit, but I'm a little confused by
the characterization of his personal suffering as "sacrifice".

By his own admission, he was a warfighter who wanted to fight in war. At least
as far as the Boer conflict goes, he didn't care much about which _side_ he
was on. He was thus neither patriotic nor apparently driven by any other
similar notion of "service" to a higher cause.

If the article's characterization is correct, he was principally driven by war
for war's sake. This was _who he wanted to be and what he wanted to do_. He
was in fact self-actualizing in a way that most people never do. He followed
his true passion and his dream.

Why then are his injuries characterized as "sacrifice"? Would it have been
"sacrifice" if he had been injured in the process of pursuing a passion for
big game hunting, or as a test pilot in some barely functional bi-plane?

Maybe I'm splitting hairs that don't need to be split or quibbling over minor
semantics, but this touched on a lingering issue I've had with the verbiage
surrounding war & conflict, and the double standards we collectively employ
when talking & thinking about it.

~~~
grownseed
As much as I'm impressed by the man himself, I completely agree. This
glorification of war is not exactly healthy, at least not to me.

Currently living in Canada, it was Remembrance day a couple of months ago and
I told some of my friends that it made me feel uncomfortable, which wasn't
particularly well received. TV would show and tell about "glorious" moments of
war, people would gather to remember the heroes who lost their lives or their
limbs (in war, any soldier on the winning side is apparently a hero, as for
the losing side...), and so on.

It's not that I don't feel bad for all those who lost something throughout
wars, I honestly do and it pains me. However these traditions we have instill
the idea that war is not just ok, it's something to be proud of. That having
countless people on one side or the other end up as canon fodder is not just
ok, it's part of the game.

The ironic beauty of History is that everybody has their own version... in the
right light, and with enough time passed, it seems like any war could be the
pinnacle of honor. Some wars may be necessary but I'd argue that the vast
majority aren't.

Also a favorite of mine on the subject:
[http://www.charliechaplin.com/en/synopsis/articles/29-The-
Gr...](http://www.charliechaplin.com/en/synopsis/articles/29-The-Great-
Dictator-s-Speech)

~~~
jpollock
I think you're doing the holiday a disservice. I recommend attending one of
the services. One of my most memorable experiences growing up was attending a
Remembrance Day ceremony at one of the military cemeteries.

There is nothing like standing silently surrounded by Canadian headstones from
all walks of life as Last Post is played to remind you that war has a definite
cost.

It still makes me emotional.

~~~
lotsofmangos
Vonnegut's take on it in Breakfast of Champions seems right:

 _" I will come to a time in my backwards trip when November eleventh,
accidentally my birthday, was a sacred day called Armistice Day. When I was a
boy, and when Dwayne Hoover was a boy, all the people of all the nations which
had fought in the First World War were silent during the eleventh minute of
the eleventh hour of Armistice Day, which was the eleventh day of the eleventh
month._

 _It was during that minute in nineteen hundred and eighteen, that millions
upon millions of human beings stopped butchering one another. I have talked to
old men who were on battlefields during that minute. They have told me in one
way or another that the sudden silence was the Voice of God. So we still have
among us some men who can remember when God spoke clearly to mankind._

 _Armistice Day has become Veterans’ Day. Armistice Day was sacred. Veterans’
Day is not._

 _So I will throw Veterans’ Day over my shoulder. Armistice Day I will keep. I
don’t want to throw away any sacred things._

 _What else is sacred? Oh, Romeo and Juliet, for instance._

 _And all music is. "_

\---

The celebration of the armistice is sacred. The jingoism that has been
introduced since is utterly profane.

------
plehoux
You should also read about Leo Major, a real bad ass:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A9o_Major](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A9o_Major)

\- Single-handedly liberated the city of Zwolle in the Netherlands from German
army occupation \- Won two distinguished conduct medals, one in WWII and one
in Korea \- Only person whose DCMs were awarded in two different wars \- He
refuse his WII medal, because it was handed by a general despising french
Canadian soldiers \- Lost one eye in first days of Normandy campaign \- ...

~~~
madaxe_again
Also don't forget "Mad" Jack Churchill -
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Churchill](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Churchill)
.

That said, I find the fact that the BBC are running this article a touch
jingoistic - "Look boys, war is glorious!".

~~~
pierrec
Jingoistic indeed. About the Jack Churchill article, editing Wikipedia seems a
bit daunting to me, but maybe someone more experimented could amend or remove
the sentence:

" _Churchill also carried out the last recorded bow and arrow killing in
action_ "

I'm not sure what they mean by "recorded", but people are still using bows and
arrows to kill each other as recently as 2008:

[http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Bows_and_arrows_deadly_weapo...](http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Bows_and_arrows_deadly_weapons_of_rural_Kenyas_war_999.html)

[http://www.ogiek.org/election-war/election-
war-4.htm](http://www.ogiek.org/election-war/election-war-4.htm)

------
mabbo
>He received the Victoria Cross, the highest British military award for
gallantry, for his actions at La Boiselle. He, however, declined to even
mention the medal in his autobiography, later telling a friend that "it had
been won by the 8th Glosters, for every man has done as much as I have".

This is leadership. I didn't win it, _we_ won it, and I happened to be the man
in charge at the time.

------
wycx
Would he fall into the ~2% of people that can cope with sustained combat[1],
i.e. a sociopath?

[1][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Killing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Killing)

~~~
woodman
Is that a relevant link? I've read both of Grossman's books and don't remember
him touching on sociopathy. Was that added it in the 2009 edition?

~~~
wycx
I shall dig up my copy (1996 edition) later to give you the chapter, but as
far as I recall (and I have not read it again recently), the book details that
98% of combatants were observed to suffer some sort of breakdown when in a
sustained combat environment for a certain period of time, which I think was 2
months. The other 2% were sociopaths, who did not suffer any emotional
distress. That would seem to be behaviour consistent with someone who
"enjoyed" the war.

~~~
woodman
I'd check myself, but I can't find my copy. It'd be a little surprising if
that bit was included in either book, and even more surprising if it is more
than a footnote, considering how well received Grossman's work is in the
military. Traditionally mental health and psychology are areas the military
has actively avoided, which is an obvious void when you look at the amount of
resources dedicated to performance enhancement.

------
danbruc
I just see a prime example of human stupidity. What the heck is wrong with us?

~~~
stefantalpalaru
It's not stupidity. He wanted to kill other humans within the confines of the
law so he embraced war and went to fight any chance he got.

~~~
danbruc
Wanting to kill humans - can it get any stupider?

~~~
byEngineer
Yes. Letting others to kill you

~~~
danbruc
You have a point here, he was just defending against others. But I meant my
original comment in a broader sense, going to war in general.

------
arethuza
I can strongly recommend _Tommy_ by Richard Holmes for an excellent account of
the realities of serving as a soldier in the British army in WW1 - he points
out the British generals actually had a _higher_ death rate than lower ranks:

[http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tommy-British-Soldier-Western-
Front/...](http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tommy-British-Soldier-Western-
Front/dp/0007137524)

What is particularly interesting is that he has also done similar books for
the Napoleonic and contemporary wars - _Redcoat_ and _Dusty Warrior_
respectively - both also strongly recommended.

------
theorique
What a tough guy. An inspiration for all of us.

Reminds me a bit of Lauri Törni / Larry Thorne. Only really at home in
conflict.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauri_T%C3%B6rni](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauri_T%C3%B6rni)

------
bootload
_" Frankly, I had enjoyed the war."_

The thesis behind the book, _" War"_ [0] by Sebastian Junger. Read this
interview, _" Missing the Closeness of Brotherhood"_ to understand why ~
[http://goodmenproject.com/arts/sebastian-junger-korengal-
int...](http://goodmenproject.com/arts/sebastian-junger-korengal-interview-
js/)

[0] [http://www.amazon.com/WAR-Sebastian-
Junger/dp/B005K5DN5O/ref...](http://www.amazon.com/WAR-Sebastian-
Junger/dp/B005K5DN5O/ref=tmm_hrd_title_0?_encoding=UTF8&sr=&qid=)

------
mercurialshark
What an absurdly legit leader. Standing on top of a trench, entirely exposed,
holding nothing but a stick in his hand. Ya, that would give your men
confidence before a charge. I want to be 1/100 this awesome!

~~~
arethuza
Of course, what you really want to use to capture 42 German prisoners in WW2
is a broadsword:

[http://warfarehistorynetwork.com/daily/wwii/mad-jack-
churchi...](http://warfarehistorynetwork.com/daily/wwii/mad-jack-churchill-a-
rare-breed-of-warrior/)

[http://www.badassoftheweek.com/churchill.html](http://www.badassoftheweek.com/churchill.html)

------
jfoutz
I always thought Jimmy Stewart was impressive. Not nearly the visceral hand to
hand nature of others mentioned here, of course. He seems like a guy who made
the most of his life wherever he happened to be. Learning George Bailey was a
brigadier general was, well, kinda surprising.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Stewart#Military_service](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Stewart#Military_service)

------
woah
Sociopath?

