
How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals - gumby
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/24/magazine/the-era-of-people-like-you-is-over-how-turkey-purged-its-intellectuals.html
======
dang
All: please don't post unsubstantive comments or ideological flamebait in this
thread or any other HN thread.

Please do follow the site guidelines. They include " _Comments should get more
thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive._ "

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

------
thaumaturgy
Turkey's GDP peaked at $950 billion in 2013, just before Erdogan became
president. By 2017, it had slid to $850 billion, and after the intellectual
purges, slid to just $766 billion in 2018. [1]

People may argue from ideology for or against politics like these, but I can
think of no clearer indication of these policies' failure than the
impoverishing of a country.

[1]:
[https://tradingeconomics.com/turkey/gdp](https://tradingeconomics.com/turkey/gdp)

~~~
devmunchies
GDP is not a north star metric. GDP in the US is high and we have more
suicides than ever.

Many authoritarian (or especially populist) governments KNOW they will lower
the GDP because by limiting low-wage labor immigration or focusing on
nurturing a native culture or preserving the environment and not buying into a
soulless consumerism/globalization they are creating a GDP cap.

 _" growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell"_
\--edward abbey

(I don't know anything about what's happening in Turkey, I just don't believe
in GDP as a metric to chase)

~~~
p1necone
I'd like some kind of standard metric that adjusts gdp to spending power on
food, housing etc, and weights based on standard deviation amongst the
populace (lower being better).

Unadjusted gdp seems like an entirely pointless metric when as you point out
you can look at places like the USA where despite having high gdp there's
still widespread poverty.

~~~
abakker
The metric you are looking for is Purchasing Power Parity -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchasing_power_parity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchasing_power_parity)

~~~
sgnelson
And also the Big Mac Index.

[https://www.economist.com/news/2019/07/10/the-big-mac-
index](https://www.economist.com/news/2019/07/10/the-big-mac-index)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Mac_Index](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Mac_Index)

------
TomMckenny
It's disturbing this produced a sort of flame war.

In the not-so-distant-past, a dictator purging academics would be clearly and
universally acknowledged as bad.

Somehow it's now twisted around to claim that critics of _supporters_ of a
regime are actually the real "oppressors".

Interesting times.

~~~
Bartweiss
> _In the not-so-distant-past, a dictator purging academics would be clearly
> and universally acknowledged as bad._

Honestly, I'm not so sure that's true. That's still a consensus view for
people without a stake in what's happening, and it never has been clear and
universal for those close to the topic. (Who, as here, generally accept the
principle but reject the accuracy of both 'dictator' and 'purge'.)

It's not hard to find people, even in the US, who in their own time excused
(or praised) each of fascist crackdowns on historians, Soviet enforcement of
Lysenkoism, Pinochet's 'disappearing' of artists, Maoist 'reeducation', or
even the Khmer Rouge's outright mass murder of educated people. Mostly, those
purges have only been near-universally reviled in hindsight.

~~~
TomMckenny
You are correct, unfortunately. There must always be a contingent that
supports the autocrat or else he would not be in power. "universal" is indeed
too broad a term.

And indeed, in the US there were things like the Madison Square pro-nazi rally
in 1939. And just as there were pro-democracy denunciations of Pinochet that
Nixon et co ignored, so too today there is denunciation of appalling
autocratic behavior that will be ignored and will need to be watered down to
justify to the public. Perhaps in the past too there were arguments of the
form "thousands of political firings do not constitute a purge because the New
York Times is X"

I am accustomed to solution oriented discussions on these topics. So while
interesting from an anthropological point of view, defense and praise of
autocratic behavior is a breaking distraction from finding solutions.

------
chewz
We had something like this in 1968 in Poland with communist propaganda
condemning intelectuals and cosmpolitans and workers activists beating
students on the streets (like they do in HK these days).

Sztoptanski called that Dictatorship of Dishrags. Generally the best weapon
against such times is irony and a sense of humor and grotesque.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janusz_Szpota%C5%84ski](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janusz_Szpota%C5%84ski)

~~~
madez
After reading that article, I'm happy for the polish to live in a better state
now, and I immediately started to think where people are now oppressed by
their government whenever they are deemed 'harmful to the nation', and China
came to my mind, and not just for the Chinese state cooperating with the
organized crimes triads to attack protesters in Hong Kong. The situation there
is different for now, because China is economically developing, so that may
stabilize the government, but eventually China will get rid of its oppressive
regime. I wonder when and how.

~~~
blfr
We weren't really oppressed by our government. The March events, as they're
know here, were mostly homegrown commies pushing out the Jewish wing of the
party with decent people getting caught in the purge and following protests.

But it was all happening with two hundred thousand Soviet soldiers stationed
in the country. The communist government wouldn't have lasted a month without
the Soviet support. The situation is different because China is not being
occupied by a foreign power. Neither is Turkey.

~~~
madez
Given that history, are there common opinions and feelings in Poland regarding
Russias ongoing war with Ukraine?

~~~
blfr
I don't know anyone who would support Russia in that conflict but Ukraine
itself isn't very popular with many due to unresolved Volhynia massacres[1].
Mostly though people just don't care about a low intensity war that feels far
away (even if it isn't).

[1][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia)

------
notadoc
The USA is purging intellectuals as well through outrage culture, online mobs,
and the weaponization of political correctness. Both the far right and far
left do it routinely to their advantage, they both seem to think the ends
justify the means. Whoever has the loudest megaphone and can effectively stir
up a sufficiently large outrage mob is the winner. Facts do not matter,
evidence can be deemed "offensive" and is immediately discarded, there is no
room for nuance, opinions must conform to group-think, and attempts at humor
is often the worst offense of all. Anything can and will be taken out of
context. Their intention is to harm, destroy, cleanse the culture and ideology
into acceptable thought. Careers are ruined, achievements are discarded, lives
are destroyed, names are slandered.

That this type of behavior has been recently normalized, encouraged, and
incentivized by both the far right and far left in the USA is a very
disturbing trend. Historically this has never worked out well, so let's hope
it all stops sooner than later.

~~~
ap3
Do you have any sources for this purge of US intelectuals?

~~~
CorruptedArc
A Harvard Law Professor was forced to step down due students feeling "Unsafe"
over clients he was representing in court. There are many similar examples
like this: [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/24/opinion/harvard-ronald-
su...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/24/opinion/harvard-ronald-
sullivan.html)

~~~
SpicyLemonZest
You're misunderstanding the story. He was made to step down from a particular
post he held, and I'm not saying that's okay, but he's still a Harvard Law
professor and there was never any prospect he wouldn't be.

------
baq
It begins with experts being blamed by politicians for daring to know things
incompatible with a particular world view. When opinion gets more important
than fact, democracy becomes populism and in the limit, authoritarianism.

~~~
jjtheblunt
I think that distinct groups of Americans feel this way about both the
Democratic Party supporters and the Republican Party supporters.

~~~
baq
i'm not from the US nor live there so can't really say :)

------
sgnelson
Same thing has happened in Hungary

[https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/06/george-...](https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/06/george-
soros-viktor-orban-ceu/588070/)

~~~
deogeo
Amazing how a billionaire funding an institution with a self-admitted
propaganda purpose is 'democracy', while elected officials trying to limit the
influence of foreign capital is 'authoritarian'.

By that logic, limiting the influence of
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius_Institute](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius_Institute)
is also anti-democratic.

~~~
peu4000
It is quite amazing that different situations are different.

~~~
deogeo
This reads like a dismissal, yet refutes none of my observations.

------
TrackerFF
In Cambodia, you could get killed for wearing glasses. Their purge of
intellectuals was extreme - and that's just 45 years ago.

Not saying that every pseudo-dictator is going to end up like pol pot, but
it's good to see the warning flags.

------
zwaps
Istanbul these days is a tragedy, at least it feels like it.

One of the three greatest cities in human history, and so many signs of
"almost making it back". But now, everything has the stench of moving into the
wrong direction. Seriously, you can feel it in the people, the shops, the
buildings.

It makes me really sad never to have been there in its prime.

Turkey was never not a troubled country, but Turkish friends tell me Erdogan
has sucked the optimism out of the intellectuals and academics that prevailed
in years prior. What is left now is the typical Turkish melancholic nostalgia.
It seeps through the streets of the city nowadays.

Tragic.

~~~
deogeo
> It makes me really sad never to have been there in its prime.

Narrowly missed it by ~six centuries:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Constantinople](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Constantinople)
:)

------
stcredzero
The takeaway for those in the US: To detect nascent authoritarianism, look at
who in particular is getting persecuted in academia. Another good heuristic:
Look at who's over-serious and who is best wielding ridicule.

~~~
mklingen
Just come out and say what you mean instead of slimy implications. It's
obvious you believe in the false narrative that conservatives are somehow
being "persecuted" in academia. This is a disengenous lie spread by right wing
propaganda networks like fox news from a few cherry-picked examples. And even
if it were true, people disagreeing with your position and calling you out on
it is not "persecution."

~~~
not_a_cop75
Andy Ngo, an independent journalist, almost losing his life is hardly a
cherry-picked example.

~~~
mklingen
WTF does Andy Ngo have to do with "persecution" in academia? Is Any Ngo an
academic?

------
cat199
The modern turkish state has been suppressing various kinds of intellectuals
since its foundations via forced secularism

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism_in_Turkey](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism_in_Turkey)

what has happened is a shift in who is being suppressed, rather than the ab-
initio creation of suppression. This is hinted at but not actually elucidated
in the article:

    
    
        This measure was both practical and symbolic: 
        The decaying Ottoman Empire had given way to a
        rebellious new nation that required statesmen (like 
        himself) who were dedicated to secularism, modernity 
        and nationalism.
    

AKA _required_ actually means _required_ here, not just 'required in some sort
of abstract sense of fitting in with the zeitgeist'

the omission is unsurprising, since previous suppression fits secularist
editorial bias of NYT, whereas current suppression does not.

this is neither to say that I am in favor of either, nor that there was/was
not intellectual freedom under ottoman times.

------
nurettin
The, purge, the loss of jobs, the continuous state of emergency, all terrible
ideas. However, painting everyone affected as "intellectual"s is going a bit
too far. Although many innocent people got hurt, a lot of them were nur cult
members. They believe said nursi was a prophet. They took over the education
industry to spread their dogmas. Everyone in Turkey knew that and turned a
blind eye because they were harmless.

------
tuvan
I don't really know what is so special about the school which they decided to
base the entire article on. This is just a small sample of the ongoing
intellectual purge in Turkey. Every university rector is appointed by Erdogan,
most professors in STEM, if they haven't fled, avoid any kind of political
stance to continue teaching with the hopes of raising intellectuals who will
help save the country. This is the university side of the situation, most of
the successful students leave the country as soon as they graduate. This
migration is on a scale that is record high in countries history, according to
some unofficial numbers more than 300.000 young and smart individuals leave
the country every year.

And I have a problem with this story about its portrayal of Turk-Kurd
relation. Turkey is an extension of a multi-national empire. For most people
living there, Turkish is not an ethnicity. Most of Kurds, Armenians, Greeks,
and more identify themselves as Turks. Portraying Demirtas as a charismatic
Kurdish rights activist that wants to unite everyone with peace is despicable
journalism. Demirtas is a proud terrorist supporter, he has stated his love
and respect for Abdullah Ocalan repeatedly. Abdullah Ocalan is/was the leader
of P.K.K., a group that is seen as a terrorist organization by every major
intelligence agency of world, he is responsible for the murders of tens of
thousands of innocent men, women, children.

~~~
chr1
Turkey is an extension of a multi-national empire which had extreme levels of
animosity between its nations, people who identified as non-turks were
severely penalized in the past, and to this day allegations of having a non
Turk grandparent is something that can be used against politicians. Armenian
is still considered an offensive word in Turkey, (as is Turk in Armenia), so
portraying Turkey as an idyllic multi-national country is self-deception.
Everyone can agree that killing people should be condemned, but it is
important to remember that the terrorism of P.K.K. is more similar to American
revolution against Britain than to the Al-qaeda terrorism, and it have arised
not because some Kurds are despicable people but because there are real
unsolved problems still present in Turkey.

~~~
m00dy
I dont really understand why people are making concrete assumptions about a
terrorist organization without living in the country. Terrorism of PKK cannot
be comparable to American revolution. You never lived in Turkey and you dont
know the culture there. Turkey and US have completely different cultural basis
and you cant just show up and making assumptions like these. I mean of course
you can, from my point of view it is just funny.

~~~
chr1
If you want examples closer to Turkey take Greek War of Independence, or
forces fighting for liberation of Bulgaria, or northern Ireland. I have not
lived in Turkey but my grandparents did, and i know some people who do live in
Turkey. Of course i do not support terrorism, but PKK exists largely because
unfair laws, untold stories, and ethnic hatred existing in Turkey. The only
way to really win the fight with PKK is not force, but free speech and human
rights.

If you could tell your perspective on the issue, of why what i say is baseless
and funny, I would be grateful.

~~~
m00dy
PKK killed a Turkish Diplomat in Northern Iraq last week [0]. You can't really
explain this by lack of free speech or human rights. There are many cases like
this in Turkey's history where innocent people get assassinated by some
cowards.

[0]: [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/iraq-
sh...](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/iraq-shooting-
today-turkey-diplomats-irbil-kurdish-middle-east-a9008441.html)

~~~
chr1
That is horrible, but a supporter of PKK would reply that Turkish army have
killed and displaced Kurds in Afrin. War is an ugly thing, and everyone
involved loses from it. The way free speech and human rights can help, is the
same way it helped with conflicts in Europe. The country where speaking in
kurdish can get an MP sentenced to 15 years for "separatist speech",
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_of_Kurdish_people...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_of_Kurdish_people_in_Turkey),
where there is a law for "insulting Turkishness" used against people like
Taner Akçam, is deeply ill, and that illness is the cause of PKK.

~~~
m00dy
I agree to disagree. There are many ways to reach the ultimate reality.
Unfortunalty, yours looks a bit flawed.

~~~
chr1
Could you please tell with what exactly you disagree.

------
baxtr
My favorite concept right now is the “meritocracy of ideas” - a fancy way of
saying that the best ideas win. Somehow I feel that this is a core driver for
success, in an organization, small or big. So by excluding smart people and
their ideas you may significantly limit yourself and the futures your
organization.

~~~
Dumblydorr
How do you define meritocracy? Ideas are infectious and they clearly do not
need truthful or academic merit to spread like wildfire.

~~~
vkou
Tautalogically, in the same sham way that we generally define meritocracy.

"These ideas won, because, clearly, they are the best."

"These people are successful, because, clearly, they are the best."

~~~
sjg007
This is insightful. The other part is that some ideas matter and most don’t.

------
ayayecocojambo
we are hoping when erdo gone we can recover as intellectuals are still out
there. clock is ticking for him.

but most terrifying thing is rising popularity of the populist leaders in the
west.

------
atoav
As somebody who grew up in a central european province governed by popularist
right wingers and then left, this was a question that always bugged me: If I
am leaving, am I not making it worse there? But should I really go through
unbearable suffering in an environment that is so corrupt, so completely
devoid of rationality that the only few semi-okay people you know start acting
like trauma victims, never just able to cope with the environment they live
in.

I can't blame anybody who fled in such a climate, especially in a nation which
has it's unprocessed genocides not to far in the past. The border between what
we call civilization and pure, stupid, evil fascism is extremely thin and
given the right conditions the transition can be so incredibly fast, when the
public starts to realize, it will be too late.

~~~
sjg007
Depends on your philosophy. You could effect greater change outside the
country for example. Or you could stay inside and create a revolution. I think
the creative difference would be your resources and network.

------
misingnoglic
Not true how substantiated this is, but I heard one of the reasons for moving
Turkey away from the traditional script is to make it so people can't read
texts about the Armenian genocide. Truly chilling stuff :(

------
mhh__
"People have had enough of experts" \- Michael Gove

God help us

~~~
username90
Many experts are just preachers in different attire. Honestly, should we
really listen to scientist who gets labeled experts based non replicable
studies? The problem is that all of them gets the same doctors titles but only
some of them are doing honest research, and our current society has no good
way to deal with this. As a result laymen notice that significant parts of
science is pure bullshit, no wonder there are trust issues!

~~~
mhh__
Really? The point michael gove was making, if you're not aware, was to try and
shun any _attempt_ at "expert"-ing.

Within the context of Brexit, the leavers had their own group of "experts"
i.e. the ERG but any attempt at economic prediction was clearly shunned on the
grounds of it being "Project Fear" despite no specific biases being
demonstrated. Because that's the only way, along with blatant lies, to get
people believe that leaving the largest trading block - possibly even with no
replacement deal with anyone - could possibly be a good thing (At all costs
being the current mantra i.e. No Deal)

It's not the lack of listening to certain experts that bothers me, it's them
clearing playing the card. Gove, and most of the others on the leave side, is
very well educated and damn well knows that careful thought ("expert"ism) is
important.

~~~
nbabitskiy
As it looked for a foreigner, reading almost exclusively mainstream media,
when I happened to come by, not only were not pro-staying experts shunned,
rather I was stunned for the outcome, because I never heard anything pro-
leaving, or any expectation it would end this way. Surely Brexit guys mean it
not like Erdogan (i.e. jail time), but more like "if media don't serve as a
feedback channel, both voters and elites could as well turn tvs off"?

It's very interesting to me, cause I observe experts in expertise everywhere
in Russian media, and have been feeling lately, that they'll close themselves
in no time, if they proceed that way, or turn into buzzfeeds.

------
ng12
HN is the only place I've seen people outright defending the PRC's human
rights abuses. Something about HN really brings out the ultra-nationalists.

~~~
sgnelson
Over the past few years, it seems to me, that HN is suffering a bit from the
eternal september effect. It seems (again, to me) that many HN commentators
are very technically knowledgeable, but are sorely lacking in understanding
politics, social sciences, liberal arts, etc.

It also seems (again, to me) that there has been a lot more authoritarian
beliefs expressed by the comments. Take my opinion and observations for what
you will.

~~~
TeMPOraL
In my experience, it's usually the people who've been here for long that tend
to express views differing from what we're all supposed to believe. So maybe
it's a reverse eternal September? Maybe it's a reflection of a growing
disillusionment with geopolitics and its reporting in western media?

I mean, the story looks pretty damning on the face of it, but you have to
consider that the last time the same media called a ruler a "bad guy" and
people acted on it, it ended up completely wrecking a perfectly fine nation
(Libya). Some time before that, the US wrecked another nation (Iraq),
justifying it by fabricated stories people bought into at the time. I think
you can excuse people for their lack of trust.

~~~
TomMckenny
There is zero possibility that anything like that will happened to Turkey just
as there is zero possibility of that happening to Saudi Arabia for their
journalist murdering. The current rulership of the US (and Poland for that
mater) actively dislike academia and the free press.

Also, the US will need to use Turkey for whatever it plans to do to Iran. So
if anything, revealing Erdogan's atrocities is annoying to the current
leadership not helping.

> what we're all supposed to believe...growing disillusionment with
> geopolitics and its reporting in western media

Since we're talking about the NYT, I must say that at this time the US is
overwhelmingly controlled by a party that condemns the media and its own free
press as a lying enemy of the people. This is why the hated there grew
enormously in the last few years. I understand there are similar forces in
several other nations.

------
shmerl
The era of fascists like Erdogan will come to an end as well.

~~~
joncp
Sadly, not as long as human brains are made of meat.

~~~
hyperion2010
More 'made using primate genes.' There are many perfectly good brains that
could be made out of meat, they just need to have certain bits about social
hierarchy from our primate past removed or tweaked.

------
meshr
Intellectuals should stop sharing their knowledge/skills with obscurantists.
They should allow obscurantists to fail or at least to make obscurantists to
depend on intellectuals. The motto should be "first control then money gaining
or sharing"

~~~
magduf
Well in places where the intellectuals are fleeing, that's basically what
they're doing, no? They're not trying to control the money exactly, but they
are ceasing to share their skills with the rest of the people in that country,
and removing themselves from its economy.

~~~
meshr
I don’t think it is right. They harm their selves much more than its country.
Dictator will easily buy their replacement from free world when needed. The
problem is that intellectuals could be bought and sold because there are no
contract commitments on how to use the knowledge. You are even free to use
your knowledge against your teacher to make him to leave the country.

~~~
magduf
What? I have almost no idea what you're trying to say here. Are you saying
that intellectuals should be forced to stay in their countries with dictators?
I guess you're a big fan of East Germany and North Korea, huh?

------
CorruptedArc
So firing 6,000 academics and restructuring and a single major university
counts as a purge? I mean a great many places are laying off professors with
Liberal Arts Degrees many more than 6,000. In modern day the focus is shifting
away from those careers. Even if that is a bad thing it is still the truth of
the matter. This just seems like its trying to push a ham-fisted narrative.
I'm no fan of Erdogan but this seems like textbook attempt at Yellow
Journalism.

~~~
radres
At least 100 000 people lost their jobs. 6000 is only the number of academics.
We are talking about Stanford/MIT grad, >40 h-index young academics (at least
in science which is not the focus of the article)

Some of these high-achieving people couldn't even leave the country even
though there were a lot of positions waiting for them. Some people tried to go
to Greece on boats which many of them died on the way.

~~~
magduf
It sounds like someone needs to organize some good, seaworthy boats to come
pick these people up and take them someplace better, and help them get set up.
After all, if they're intellectuals, they should be a huge asset to any
country that takes them in. There's a reason we have the term "brain drain":
countries that get the brains usually benefit greatly, while the countries
losing them suffer economically.

~~~
zwaps
I know you didnt mean this, but perhaps these people don't want to leave?

Turkey is not a hellhole. Sure, it is a divided country, but it has a rich
history and lots of beauty (I say that not being a Turk, nor being from
Istanbul).

Let's remember that the current position as a developing nation is
historically rather new. There is a strong sense of nostalgia and, until
recently, there was some realistic hope that Turkey would claw its way back.

I'd personally argue there arent many comparable places where you can (or
could) indeed live a good academic and intellectual life in a non-western,
non-east-asian society.

I know people who were ousted from their jobs, and yes they can all move
elsewhere. But that's not the personal tragedies lie.

If you grew up in a city full of thousands of years of history from East and
West, it is entirely possible you will never be quite as happy living in
sterile, uniform, blocky corporaty cities in the US or Canada.

Those academics who stayed in Turkey despite their credentials, probably have
such a preference.

~~~
magduf
Yes, I absolutely did mean this. Just read the comment I responded to: "Some
people tried to go to Greece on boats which many of them died on the way."

Obviously, those people thought it was enough of a hellhole that they risked
their lives to take boats to Greece, and died!

>Those academics who stayed in Turkey despite their credentials, probably have
such a preference.

I'm not talking about anyone who's staying there. I'm talking about people who
are actively trying to escape and are risking their lives to get out.
Obviously, they're perfectly willing to abandon those cities "full of
thousands of years of history". Besides, western Europe is chock full of other
cities with thousands of years of history that don't have the problems Turkey
has, and that's where these people were headed to, not the US or Canada.

