
Cinema’s greatest scene: ‘Casablanca’ and ‘La Marseillaise’ - prismatic
http://seveninchesofyourtime.com/cinemas-greatest-scene-casablanca-and-la-marseillaise/
======
ggm
I cry at this scene, every time. I start to cry thinking about it.

From the wiki, which contextualizes what I was told by my parents (who were
young adults in London during the war)

 _Much of the emotional impact of the film has been attributed to the large
proportion of European exiles and refugees who were extras or played minor
roles (in addition to leading actors Paul Henreid, Conrad Veidt and Peter
Lorre): such as Louis V. Arco, Trude Berliner, Ilka Grünig, Lotte Palfi,
Richard Ryen, Ludwig Stössel, Hans Twardowski, and Wolfgang Zilzer. A witness
to the filming of the "duel of the anthems" sequence said he saw many of the
actors crying and "realized that they were all real refugees".[25] Harmetz
argues that they "brought to a dozen small roles in Casablanca an
understanding and a desperation that could never have come from Central
Casting".[26] They were frequently cast as Nazis in war films, even though
many were Jewish._

~~~
acjohnson55
Oh my gosh, I cried again, just watching the clip. The battered pride and
defiance are so palpable. I think everyone knows that feeling of when you're
getting shat upon for no real reason, and all you want is a little dignity.

------
CalChris
In the scene which sets up the Marseillaise scene, Yvonne comes into the bar
with the German officer and he orders the only drink mentioned by name in a
movie with a whole lot of drinking, the _French 75_ , named after the French
WWI 75mm field gun.

    
    
       gin, Champagne, lemon juice and sugar
    

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_75_(cocktail)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_75_\(cocktail\))

Yvonne finds her moral core when they play the Marseillaise just as Rick later
finds his when he has to make a choice.

~~~
ghaff
I'm not sure the reason but this is the third time that I have seen the French
75 (something I had never previously heard of) come up in either conversation
or as a bar special within literally the past two days. One of those times I
can write off as awareness but still...

~~~
thomas_howland
The Baader-Meinhof phenomenon.

~~~
okket
Also known as frequency illusion
[https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Frequency_illusion](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Frequency_illusion)

------
neves
And do not forget the power of the music. Nice read below:

Why La Marseillaise is the only song that matters right now

The French national anthem is the greatest anthem there is, and its history
will likely only increase your admiration for it, writes Alex Marshall.

[http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20151117-why-la-
marseillais...](http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20151117-why-la-marseillaise-
is-the-only-song-that-matters-right-now)

~~~
toomanybeersies
I think that one of the reasons that La Marseillaise is so rousing is because
of its tempo.

Most national anthems have a comparatively glacial tempo, whereas La
Marseillaise is generally played at ~120 BPM, a marching tempo.

Il Canto degli Italiani, the Italian national anthem, is similar.

------
0xCMP
I've found that a lot of "this is the best X ever" is often just hype, but
when I watched Casablanca for the first time I was super happy to find out
that wasn't the case for this movie.

All these years later it's still powerful, relatable, and timeless.

Great break down of this scene. It's made me want to watch it again.

~~~
benbreen
Agreed. It's interesting to me how some cultural products are completely dated
and "of their time" when you experience them decades later, whereas others
remain timeless. I'm reasonably sure that Casablanca will still be receiving
praising like this in the 2210s. Part of what makes it so compelling for me is
exactly what the author identifies toward the end -- a lot of the actors in
this movie _really are_ WW2 refugees, and you can see it in their
performances. It's impossible for me not to cry when I watch the scene in
question.

~~~
gozur88
I don't see why movies should be any less "classic" than books. _A Tale of Two
Cities_ was published in 1859 and is still a classic - why not _Casablanca_
many years after its creation?

~~~
coldtea
Because books are a more or less mature art (we've been writing for
millennia).

Movies, on the other hand, can date because of technological changes (silent
vs spoken vs color etc), ways of acting (we don't expect modern actors to act
in the theatrical way of those in early cinema), different editing techniques
(a 70s series like Kojak looks unbearably slow compared to a modern police
series), and even what they were allowed to say (movies being more heavily
censored than books can look way more quaint the older you go).

An overuse of special effects and fast editing since the 80s has also done
much to alter the tolerance of modern audiences for subtler movies.

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ciscoriordan
For those of you in SF, it’s playing at the Castro Theatre on December 17
([http://www.castrotheatre.com/p-list.html#dec17](http://www.castrotheatre.com/p-list.html#dec17)).

~~~
frandroid
Awesome.

My only and excellent experience of the Castro theatre is watching Hitchcock's
Vertigo there, just days after my brother-in-law had given me the tour of
city, of which I was a visitor. Suddenly you realize how central to the movie
the city is. There's what's now a good joke about the Mission, too.

------
SagelyGuru
My grandfather was a real Czechoslovak resistance leader, like the fictional
Victor, which adds extra poignancy to "Casablanca" for me.

Unfortunately the reality was such that the Germans were unlikely to release
such people. My grandfather was tortured and executed as "an enemy of the
Reich".

------
bradbeattie
Given that Casablanca was filmed in 1942, one might argue that the actors'
emotions in that scene are more timely than one might first guess.

~~~
bambax
Yes, but how ironic that the sinister Nazi officer was played by a German
actor who opposed the Nazis and fled his country for fear of persecution of
himself and his Jewish wife (Conrad Veidt, also the inspiration for the
_Joker_ character in the Batman franchise).

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univalent
I cry every time I see this scene. Great unpacking of a powerful few minutes
of cinema. I could hear the song thundering in my ear just from reading the
article.

------
helloworld
Before a scene is shot, who figures out where the camera will focus? Is that
primarily the director's job -- or the cinematographer's?

In this scene, I'm struck that there are so many crucial close-ups: of
Renault, Ilsa, Rick, Yvonne, and Laszlo. I'm assuming that someone planned
that. Maybe with storyboards?

~~~
sowbug
I don't have an answer to your question, but I remember watching some
commentary by a person involved in the making of the film. This is about the
final pivotal scene where Captain Renault must quickly decide whether to
implicate Rick as the killer of Strasser.

The first version of the scene had the police arrive just as Renault shouts to
"round up the usual suspects." Whoever was in charge of the film (I assume the
director) said this was all wrong, and told the editor to instead add a
dramatic sequence of short cuts back and forth between Rick and Louis, showing
that Rick was desperately wondering what Louis would do -- praying he wouldn't
turn him in -- and Louis was thinking basically the same thing, realizing he
had the option to switch sides in the moment.

As with the Marseillaise scene, this is minutes and minutes of incredible
storytelling condensed into just a few frames of dialogue-free film. And
apparently (finally getting to your point), it wasn't originally filmed that
way; they probably had a bunch of shots of each actor glaring in various
directions, and they used them in the editing room to powerful effect.

If anyone has a link to the interview I'm describing, I'd appreciate watching
it again.

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mwilliaams
What a great analysis to add even more depth to this great movie.

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timewarrior
Love this scene and the movie. It's my most favorite movie. I have seen it
about 40 times right now, many times in Theater.

Stanford theater in Palo Alto screens this frequently and have made many
friends there at Casablanca screenings.

Another great scene is "The Beginning of a Beautiful Friendship" \-
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kiNJcDG4E0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kiNJcDG4E0)

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swerner
On top of that, the background music right after that are the first notes of
the German national anthem - in minor.

------
lolive
I will name one movie and let your infer what the cinema's greatest scene is:
MI-SE-RY.

------
hk__2
There’s a typo in the HN title: it’s 'La Marseillaise', not 'Le Marseillaise'.

~~~
dang
Thanks! Fixed.

------
CalChris
> Casablanca is widely remembered as one of the greatest films of all time,
> coming in at #2 on the AFI’s top 100 list ...
    
    
      1. CITIZEN KANE (1941)
      2. CASABLANCA (1942)
      3. THE GODFATHER (1972)
      4. GONE WITH THE WIND (1939)
      5. LAWRENCE OF ARABIA (1962)
    

I just don't enjoy _CITIZEN KANE_ anymore. It's like a film school movie. I
watched it maybe 10-15 times when I was younger and I just don't _enjoy_ it
anymore. Like so what? _GONE WITH THE WIND_ is the pinnacle of Lost Cause
propaganda. I enjoyed when I didn't understand it. (I'm sure glad I didn't
watch _Triumph of the Will_ when I didn't understand it.) I damn sure don't
enjoy _GONE WITH THE WIND_ now that I understand it.

But I can watch _CASABLANCA_ , _THE GODFATHER_ and _LAWRENCE OF ARABIA_ over
and over. And this was a good article telling me things I didn't appreciate
and still I can go back and watch _CASABLANCA_ again.

~~~
mozumder
You're looking at a list from one perspective: AFI's. It's going to be
different from the Director's Guild of America's perspective, or BET
Television's perspective, Roger Ebert's perspective, or IMDB commenter's
perspective, or Teen Vogue's perspective.

I personally think 4 of those 5 movies are way overrated, including Godfather.
And I'm sure "But I'm a Cheerleader, Too" is going to be near the top of Teen
Vogue's list, but is going to be nowhere near anyone else's list.

We really need to not think of these lists as authoritative. It's just another
data point.

~~~
CalChris
Yes, lists are lists. However, the DGA's list is not so different:

    
    
      1. The Godfather
      2. Citizen Kane
      3. Lawrence of Arabia
      4. 2001: A Space Odyssey
      5. Casablanca
    

_2001_ falls apart with that impenetrable ending and I rather like _2001_.
However, I can't watch it nearly as often as any of the other movies on that
list. Once a decade maybe.

~~~
bshimmin
Don't you feel like the "impenetrable ending" is one of the _best_ things
about _2001_?

For me the outlier on that list is _Lawrence of Arabia_ , which I'm sure is a
very fine film but I have yet to stay awake for the entirety of it.

~~~
CalChris
No. I really don’t get anything out of it.

My favorite part is the battle of the apes over the watering hole which morphs
into the polite but tense clash between Cold War rivals at the bar.

I also like that it was written to be boring. _I’m sorry Dave_ wasn’t intended
to be funny.

------
frandroid
*La

~~~
barsonme
The francophones are out in full force today!

~~~
frandroid
Oui monsieur!

~~~
barsonme
et ils n'aiment pas la mauvaise orthographe ;)

------
timthelion
Nothing like some good old black and white, two sided European nationalism to
bring tears to the eyes, is there?

~~~
dang
We've banned this account for repeatedly violating the site guidelines and
ignoring our requests to stop. Tossing this sort of flamebait into an HN
thread is vandalism, let alone going full Hitler once people take the bait.
We're trying for an entirely different kind of site here.

I appreciate that you also post the occasional substantive comment, but your
balance is negative and it isn't worth it. If you don't want to be banned on
HN, though, you're welcome to email us at hn@ycombinator.com and commit to
using the site as intended from now on.

We detached this subthread from
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15857292](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15857292)
and marked it off-topic.

~~~
timthelion
Hmm, interesting. A shadow ban. I agree that my first comment was too without
substance. However, I feel that the entire thread was rather without
substance.

I don't really see the problem with the second comment though, or how it is
going "full Hitler". Godwin's law doesn't apply to discussions that are
literally about WWII. Yes, it may be negative, but is negativity wrong in of
itself it if my negativity is backed up by rational discussion?

~~~
dang
It's hardly a "shadow ban" when we explain it to you at length!

The issue is that your comment history has frequently violated the site
guidelines. That's not just about negativity—it's possible to say critical
things in civil, substantive ways. But you've been doing it in a way that
damages thoughtful conversation, and that's a net negative here.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html)

------
banned1
Pftt! This scene is nothing. The best scene of all times is the bank robbery
scene in the movie Heat and what happens after. Al Pacino and Robert Deniro
were lethal. It makes me cry every time when Deniro leaves her behind:

“Don't let yourself get attached to anything you are not willing to walk out
on in 30 seconds flat if you feel the heat around the corner.”

~~~
kartD
OMG That movie just went on and on...

Also got to say Al Pacino is so insufferable. De Niro was excellent though. My
favorite scene is the end in stand up guys (also Pacino is far more mellow and
tolerable in that one)

------
mozumder
This is the greatest scene, and not the scene where Arnold rips off Richter's
arms in the elevator in Total Recall and Richter falls to his death and Arnold
throws him back his arms and yells "See you at the party Richter"?

~~~
lolive
"Consider this as a divorce."

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rziE39JWfs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rziE39JWfs)

------
dudul
"Qu'un sang impure abreuve nos sillons" translated by "let’s water the fields
with impure blood." is often a very misunderstood line.

A lot of people claim this song is racist because they think the "impure
blood" mentioned belongs to the enemy. This is both wrong and an anachronism
since there was no racial theories at the time when this song was written.

"Impure blood" is in opposition to the pure blood of the nobility, that is the
blood of simple peasants and poor people fighting to defend the Revolution.
This is the blood of the French revolutionaries that is "impure". This is in
the same spirit by which they called themselves "sans-culotte" in opposition
to the nobility.

~~~
ekianjo
No, please stop spreading revisionist interpretation of the Marseillaise.

Here's a book extract back from 1848 that clearly shows that everyone, even
back then, understood "sang impur" as the blood of the enemy. That was just 50
years or so after the Marseillaise was created.

> Cinq mois sont à peine écoulés et dans la fièvre de civilisation des esprits
> chagrins disent de dissolution qui nous travaille nous avons tout usé
> république sociale démocratique bourgeoise gouvernements d avocats de
> savants dïgnoranls de poëles de utilitaires et au milieu de ce tohu bohu de
> recherches de tortues gouvernementales l art musical s est tu comme OII le
> pense bien car il n y avait rien de bien harmonieux dans la rlIarsei laise
> provoquant à verser le sang impur des soldats étrangers qui ne sont guère
> plus féroces que nous et ne songent nullement ù venir mugir dans nos
> canzpagnes Même avant que la guerre civile vint rugir dans la cité chants
> avaient cesse Il faut espérer qu ils vont reprendre c un des meilleurs
> moyens de persuader à l Europe pour la France Paris surtout est un objet
> Œanæieuse curiosité notre capitale peut redevenir le centre des arts et de
> la civilisation

[https://books.google.co.jp/books/content?id=OILsHAshyJ8C&hl=...](https://books.google.co.jp/books/content?id=OILsHAshyJ8C&hl=ja&pg=PT228&img=1&zoom=3&sig=ACfU3U3kF0iud102auknNjYOMFB9KZmBzw&ci=524%2C199%2C439%2C292&edge=0)

It's also painfully obvious that your "sang impur" interpretation is wrong
when you read all the other verses of the Marseillaise (not just the chorus),
since so many other parts of the song refer to killing the (foreign) invaders.

> Quoi ! Des cohortes étrangères Feraient la loi dans nos foyers !

> Tremblez, tyrans et vous, perfides, L'opprobre de tous les partis ! Tremblez
> ! Vos projets parricides Vont enfin recevoir leur prix.

> Que tes ennemis expirants Voient ton triomphe et notre gloire !

And to your point, the Marseillaise is not a racist song anyway, but it's a
nationalistic one. It fits extremely well in its era of emerging nations in
Europe (spreading the idea that you belong to something bigger than your
direct community/village/town/city). France was on the brink of being
annihilated at the time of the Revolution by foreign kingdoms trying to take
power and restore the monarchy, and it was a song to gather popular support.

~~~
PetitPrince
Your quote is very poorly transcribed (I assume machine-transcribed) and has
all the punctuation stripped, making it unreadable. Here my hand
transcription:

> Cinq mois à peine écoulés, et, dans la fièvre de civilisation, --- des
> esprits chagrins disent de dissolution --- qui nous travaille, nous avons
> tout usé, république sociale, démocratique, bourgeoise, gouvernements
> d'avocats, de savants, d'ignorants, de poêtes, de militaires; et au milieu
> de ce tohu-bohu de recherche de formes gouvernementales, l'art musical s'est
> tu, comme on le pense bien; car il n'y avait rien de bien harmonique dans
> _la Marseillaise_ provoquant à verser le _sang impur_ des soldats étangers
> qui ne sont guères plus _féroces_ que nous, et ne songent nullement à venir
> _mugir dans nos campagnes_. Même avant que la guerre civile vint rugir dans
> la cité _les chants avaient cessé_. Il faut espérer qu'ils vont reprendre:
> c'est un des meilleurs moyens de persuader à l'Europe pour laquelle la
> France, Paris surtout, est, est un objet d' _anxieuse_ curiosité, que notre
> capitale peut redevenir le centre des arts et de la civilisation.

