
When Life Gives You Lemons - maibaum
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/when-life-gives-you-lemons
======
yock
[http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/04/07/tesla-
le...](http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/04/07/tesla-lemon-
law/7439547/) _Milwaukee attorney Vince Megna also says that Tesla 's policy
of selling cars directly to consumers -- rather than having franchised dealers
-- is another reason that it is tougher for customers to take action if they
are dissatisified with their car._

Ladies and Gentlemen, i give you the real reason for the lawsuit.

~~~
jonlucc
Can you explain? To me, that line makes no sense. If he bought from a dealer,
the dealer would have the same power that Tesla has in this case, right?

~~~
yock
Tesla is facing opposition to their direct-sales practices in most states
right now from the entrenched dealership lobby. It would be mighty useful to
have on legal record that the lack of dealerships is materially significant to
their ability to fulfill a portion of consumer protection law, whether it's
true or not.

------
nemesisj
I really tend to struggle with Tesla whenever I read these kinds of things. On
the one hand, I generally feel like they tend to shed light on areas where
customers, the media, politicians, etc. are messing with them. On the other,
something about the tactics they use seem...off. It's almost like they're
bullying people who they don't like or disagree with. In this case, it _seems_
like the guy and his lawyer are really just messing around and being
dishonest, and it's a situation that Tesla can gain the upper hand on.

But.

What happens in 5 years when Tesla is 10x bigger than it is now, and doesn't
do things so perfectly or well at scale? I really wonder if this type of
almost-militant napalm style PR will be handled so deftly. What happens when
they get it wrong? I think there's sufficient evidence that they already kind
of blew it with the journalist they went after previously, and it just seems
like no good will come from this culture over time.

So I'm conflicted. I love their products. I'm rooting for the company, but I
do hate these kinds of whiny posts. Tesla is better than this, I hope.

~~~
annon
In this case, the lawyer is going to try to smear Tesla, hoping that they'll
settle quickly to get him to shut up. Which more or less is extortion.

This is Tesla sending a message to all lemon law lawyers that they do not
negotiate with terrorists. Seems fair to me.

~~~
kyleblarson
This lawsuit definitely sounds frivolous, but it also makes me think of
something my grandfather always used to say about getting involved in
arguments that will only serve to make you look bad: don't piss with the
skunks.

~~~
vacri
With this essay, they are going on record as saying "We can track what happens
with the car; it's no longer your verbal word against ours".

The bit about the front trunk log is basically saying to these kinds of
lawyers that Tesla is not low-hanging fruit, and that they better either have
a genuine grievance or really know their stuff before taking them on. Better
to announce it early and scare off some of the bad guys, rather than rinse,
repeat the exercise every time. If users know that there are logs like these,
then they're less likely to pull simple cons like these, and Tesla doesn't
waste their mechanics' time in doing all the preliminary diagnostic work.

~~~
ericd
Lots of small efficiency differences like this seem like they will add up to
Tesla being much more efficient than the existing manufacturers. Good move
long term, IMO.

------
applecore
_> Ultimately, Tesla service applied non-tamper tape to the fuse switch. From
that point on, the fuse performed flawlessly._

Wow.

~~~
IvyMike
To me, this is the wow part:

> After investigating, they determined that the car's front trunk had been
> opened immediately before the fuse failure on each of the three occasions.

The Tesla sure logs a lot of things.

~~~
sologoub
Yeah, in this specific case, it seems somewhat justified, but I'm really not
sure how I feel about a car that logs that much.

Even though I use web apps that can log everything including mouse movement,
something about such logging in the physical world still puts me off big
time...

~~~
BHSPitMonkey
Would you feel better about an option that let you disable internal logging on
the condition that your service/maintenance costs were raised substantially?
The purpose seems to be to make diagnostic work easier, after all.

~~~
Balgair
My Dad is a mechanic and I can tell you this would be a god-send for
troubleshooting. However, as a private person, I have a lot of trouble with
other people knowing my habits and who I visit when and where. Docs and
Dentists take an oath not to tell for a reason. Mechanics and engineers do
not. Also, an increased price is not acceptable. The default should stay the
same, the increased logging should come at a premium if anything.

~~~
emiliobumachar
"Also, an increased price is not acceptable. The default should stay the same,
the increased logging should come at a premium if anything."

I think BHSPitMonkey meant that if they didn't log in general, maintenance
costs would be higher and the costumers would pay for it in one way or
another.

~~~
Balgair
Good point actually. They would be higher one way or another. Labor is the
major expense in repair and it is billed by the hour. Hmmmm....

------
crashandburn4
I always try and remove my preconceptions from a story when I'm reading it (I
tend to be a fan of tesla and musk) and took care to read both the linked to
article as well as tesla's version, but lots of things about this scream
bullshit.

I especially dislike the youtube video created by the lawyer[1], reminds me of
the american political smear campaigns that are run.

[1] [http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/04/07/tesla-
le...](http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/04/07/tesla-lemon-
law/7439547/)

~~~
jevinskie
"...but we're blessed: this bitch ain't caught on fire.. yet"

Err... does this lawyer want people to take him seriously? And right after
that zinger he drives past a cardboard cutout of George Clooney.

~~~
vacri
By doing crazy things like this video, he pulls attention from a wider
audience, giving his opponent more reason to settle early and shut him up.

------
mikestew
The only thing I can figure is that the customer is trying to drive a car
around for a while, file a Lemon Law complaint, then get a buy-back? I say
this because it appears that the fuse had been tampered with, and the same
person filed a complaint against Volvo last year.

~~~
ghshephard
No - the idea is _not_ to get a buy back - if that had been the case, then
they would have issued their three buy back requests, and, from what I've
read, Tesla would have been more likely than other vendors to honor it.

Instead, the objective is to _appear_ to have a violation of the lemon law,
and then file a lawsuit looking for compensatory/legal fee damages.

Normally a company like Tesla will just pay off the nuisance suit in order to
avoid having their good name dragged through the press, but, apparently, Elon
Musk doesn't play that game, and with his posting, he is making it clear to
all the other bottom feeders that he is more than willing to go head-to-head
with them.

Heh, "non-tamper" tape to the fuse switch indeed.

~~~
epynonymous
i bet tesla buys the car back at a used car price, otherwise we'd be talking
about a refund.

------
m_mueller
While this certainly reads like illicit usage, this blog entry leaves a sour
taste with me.

1) Why even blogging about this? Is Tesla that insecure about its PR that they
think they need to take the wind out of any possible negative news story, even
if it will be easily defused?

2) Why start with their high grades in consumer reports? This is not a
statistical sample, it's an individual case. Reads very defensive even though
it clearly wouldn't be needed.

After so many success stories I hope they become more confident in their
public communications.

~~~
sjtrny
1) to scare off the lawyer and all future lawyers 2) to build a body of
evidence against the lawyers claims

To me this is very confident. It's a big gamble coming out like this. Someone
who wasn't confident would have just settled and kept it quiet.

~~~
munificent
> 2) to build a body of evidence against the lawyers claims

Evidence is something you present in court, not on the web.

Tesla's side of the story is, of course, interesting and relevant, but it's
not necessary for them to do a press release about it to fight the court case.
The only people who need to see it for that are the judge and jury.

This is being done publicly, which means it's purely a PR move.

~~~
crashandburn4
I feel like a PR move is necessary given this[1]. In response to a case like
that where a lot of people have seen what amounts to a smear campaign, I don't
have a problem with with someone explaining their side (in my opinion) clearly
and calmly, I'd even say it's required.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UUaelOgVXLe-1a3PUpob3upQ&...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UUaelOgVXLe-1a3PUpob3upQ&v=V4ALbVQwRT8)

------
aspensmonster
As of starting to write this comment, there are more comments on this
submission bickering about Tesla's PR than there are about the actual merit of
the matter:

    
    
      * "Aren't people starting to get tired of Tesla's constant defensiveness?"
    
      * "something about the tactics they use seem... off."
    
      * "It's almost like they're bullying people they don't like..."
    
      * "But. What happens in 5 years when Tesla is 10x bigger than it is now..."
    
      * "this blog entry leaves a sour taste with me."
    
      * "Yeah, this does not feel good to me. I get the PR angle but this feels not right to me."
    
      * "Thank you HN for hosting another Tesla public service announcement."
    

I think the amount of flak Tesla gets on a constant basis from numerous
entities that want to see Tesla dead more than justifies their aggressive
public stance on these kinds of matters. The lawyer involved is apparently a
self-proclaimed "Lemon Law King," which should raise a red flag all by itself.
Litigious opportunism isn't usually celebrated by the HN crowd and I don't see
why an exception should be made here. HN user yock has also pointed out that
the lawyer involved in this suit is making a claim that the lack of franchised
dealerships strengthens his justifications for opening a case, in that a lack
of a dealerships for Tesla vehicles makes invoking Lemon Laws harder for
consumers. Given Tesla's recent battles with states over having to sell their
vehicles through middle men, I agree with yock's assessment that this is the
real motivation for the suit --to add ammo to the case that Tesla must submit
to the dealership franchise model-- rather than a genuine concern for a
customer's rights under Lemon Laws to reverse a purchase of a vehicle.

But if none of that is enough, there's these gems:

> _Ultimately, Tesla service applied non-tamper tape to the fuse switch. From
> that point on, the fuse performed flawlessly._

> _After investigating, they determined that the car 's front trunk had been
> opened immediately before the fuse failure on each of the three occasions._

I'm all for stomping on double-speaking weasel-wording bullshit. It's not OK
when the NSA does it, or the State Department does it, or anyone else does it.
That goes for Tesla too. But for some reason it seems a good chunk of the
readers here are stomping on what is absolutely the wrong target. Tesla is
speaking truth to power and attempting to disrupt a dinosaur of a market that
is pulling out all of the stops in a truly glorious effort to kill Tesla off.
Could we all drop the pseudo-skepticism act and take note of the plain truth
as it is?

------
wurzelgogerer
I love how tesla basically discloses who the plaintiff is, by referring to an
old case of his. Hello there Robert Montgomery!

~~~
unreal37
Seems like the lawyer and his client are trying to get some publicity from
this.

[http://www.startribune.com/local/254186161.html](http://www.startribune.com/local/254186161.html)

------
chaired
People are so conditioned by doublespeak PR, they get the icky feeling from
plain talk.

------
vimarshk
It is my request to Tesla to set an example of this person by doing whatever
possible so that the lawyer leaves his practice.

~~~
danielweber
This will not happen.

------
anxman
I'll step back and venture that Tesla customers are so happy with the customer
service, that Tesla is able to call out bad actors. As a Tesla owner, I'll say
that their customer service has gone way above and beyond any car company I've
ever worked with. It's been a delightful experience.

------
choult
Of course IANAL but doesn't this article run the risk of prejudicing any court
proceedings?

~~~
dmourati
hint: this is not going to court (IAAL)

~~~
jrockway
But the lemon law lawyer posted a video of himself walking around in a
courthouse with a duct-taped paralegal following him around. That's what
"going to court" is, right?

~~~
dmourati
Pretty much, yea.

------
darksim905
A couple of things:

* A lot of people say that Tesla is having a hard time because they aren't doing the whole dealership/franchise thing & wanting to sell to people directly. I feel like this is the fallout of something like that, the ease of someone going after them directly.

* If you watch this 'lawyer' & his YouTube videos you can tell that he's going after these companies merely because of the "days" it's been in the shop/getting fixed & nitpicking about some issues that in all fairness, are probably fabricated.

* Watched the video about the door handles, I find it hard to believe those don't work as designed but it is a possibility.

~~~
takeda
The last time he touches and car handle opens, you see that tail light also
blinked, just as if someone with the fob is standing off the camera and
pressed the unlock button.

------
ef47d35620c1
The truth stands on its own.

------
beedogs
I'm guessing this suit will be dismissed with prejudice. Dude seems like a
real lying scumbag with an axe to grind.

------
S_A_P
I think that while polarizing this is a smart move. This day in age the high
road can get you screwed as public opinion can be swayed irreversibly in a
matter of days. You have to take these sort of steps because 140 characters
can cast you as evil before you realize it.

------
epynonymous
this reminds me of the patent trolls, there's gold in dem damn litigations no
matter how absurd, it's like searching for a loophole and exploiting.

------
taiki
Given just how bloody rich Elon Musk is, he should take the lemons, give them
to his engineers to make combustable lemons AND BURN THEIR HOUSES DOWN.

(or something.)

~~~
LukeB_UK
Calm down Cave

------
wfbarks
Probably paid by the dealers to start a fire.

------
mankypro
The cars these guys make are truly magnificent engineering pieces. Fairly sure
the tooling is exceptional, so much so that the log files for the front hood
told them all they needed to know :) bet that ambulance chaser didn't expect
that. ROFLCOPTER.

------
3327
Thank you HN for hosting another Tesla public service announcement.

~~~
mschuster91
There are 29 other interesting stories on the frontpage, you're welcome to
choose another :)

------
mikemikemike
If I were Tesla I would probably hire Buzzfeed or some other marketing channel
to do a viral story highlighting how schmucky this lawyer and his client are.
It would serve the brand better if they weren't seen giving these guys the
time of day, let alone real estate on their corporate site.

------
ulfw
Aren't people starting to get tired of Tesla's constant defensiveness? I feel
like we have one of those blog posts every week. Frankly Tesla has great
products and doesn't need to act so defensive. Thoughts?

~~~
marvin
They're addressing the issue of public perception. Electric vehicles are new,
untried and untrusted. This means that there are two arenas where it is in
Tesla's interest to have strong public support: Consumers, who do not want to
buy cars which are rumored to be unreliable, and investors who don't want to
extend credit to a company which is likely to have customers turn their back
on it.

Tesla has experienced multiple smear campaigns from different angles and
motivations over its short history: Top Gear presenting the Roadster in an
unfavorable and inorrect light, the New York Times lying about the car's
performance in winter conditions, multiple news outlets overstating the fire
risk of their li-ion battery packs. The fear of the public getting an
incorrect picture of its reliability and safety record is very much grounded
in reality.

------
Mz
Yeah, this does not feel good to me. I get the PR angle but this feels not
right to me.

Wait until the trial is over and then give your side of things to handle the
"court of public opinion" but this has potential legal ramifications and I
don't think this is the right way to handle it.

Maybe I am wrong but it doesn't look like the right way to me.

~~~
gkoberger
The lawyer made a video that was very anti-Tesla:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UUaelOgVXLe-1a3PUpob3upQ&...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UUaelOgVXLe-1a3PUpob3upQ&v=V4ALbVQwRT8)

Should Tesla have to just sit back and wait, while their name is being
(probably unfairly) dragged through the mud?

~~~
Mz
Just because I feel this response is not the right response does not mean I am
suggesting they _shouldn 't_ respond at all. But some of the points they make
and the way it is framed look pretty bad to me.

I understand they feel defensive and unfairly attacked but there are better
ways to handle things.

Edit: I will add that when I worked for an insurance company, some of the
letters I had to write had to be reviewed by the legal department. So I have
firsthand experience with writing PC pieces that need to stand up in a court
of law, notify the customer of important info, admit no wrong-doing, etc. This
is not just someone talking out their butt.

~~~
pdonis
_> some of the points they make and the way it is framed look pretty bad to
me._

I'm not sure I see why. I understand you're thinking about the legal
ramifications, but reading between the lines of Tesla's blog post tells me two
key things:

(1) They have logs of everything that has happened to the car. That means they
have evidence to back up every factual statement in their blog post.

(2) They have records of all communications with the customer. That means they
have evidence that shows that at least some of the factual claims made by the
Lemon King lawyer (for example, the claim that three buyback requests were
made prior to the lawsuit being filed) are false.

In other words, they believe that everything they said in the blog post _will_
stand up in a court of law, should it ever come to that. They're just willing
to make an effort to _not_ have it come to that. (If the Lemon King lawyer had
half a brain, he'd be tripping over himself to get his client to withdraw the
suit after reading this post. Somehow I doubt that will happen.)

