
Ask HN: Manager listening to my calls, dropping references in open meetings - obviousreasons
Hello Hacker News,<p>I wanted to share a situation I am in and ask for help or advice. I suspect there isn&#x27;t much hope for me other than &quot;get a new job ASAP.&quot;<p>My company has gone through some changes and a new executive was brought in to oversee my group.<p>This person&#x27;s style is highly unusual, they do not do &quot;open discussions.&quot; They never ask for anyone&#x27;s opinion or advice. They seem to be intent on dictating everything. When they run a meeting, they do not let anyone discuss the topic. The meetings are highly controlled.<p>Things went from merely low-level intolerable to &quot;wtf&quot; recently for me when this manager began including specific words and phrases I had said to others in his weekly presentations.<p>It would be easy to assume this is accidental or maybe he overheard these phrases somehow from others. But after multiple iterations of this, I have become convinced he is somehow listening in to my conversations using the company communications app.<p>I feel he is taking this approach to cover for his lack of skills or qualifications, probably a fear driven strategy to preserve his job. He knows I am significantly more skilled than him so he seems to be dealing with that my trying to use indirect public shaming to control me.<p>I feel he is highly threatened by me. Despite repeated attempts to get 1:1 meetings with him (he moves them all or cancels them or schedules over them) to have a normal human conversation, he does not want to talk directly.<p>I am highly alarmed and feel invaded by what this guy seems to be doing. Is this common? I am so against this and find the practice completely repugnant. I would never do anything like this to my direct reports.<p>I need this job, but this environment is incredibly sick and off-putting. What do I do?
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brodouevencode
> What do I do?

I was in a similar situation but with some minor differences, and without
getting too far into the weeds or revealing too much information: do whatever
he asks, and ask him to clarify and be very intentional in everything. Be
polite, be respectful, and most of all be responsive. If obvious whistle-
blower type behavior emerges (as in he's obviously breaking the law or
violating agreements) then take advantage of your company's means of reporting
that. If he does do something that's illegal or near it, respectfully tell him
that you don't feel comfortable doing that and ask for alternative ways of
doing things that wouldn't require you to make those decisions. If he's spying
on you, just accept and ignore it.

Here's what I learned the hard way: guys like that weed themselves out
eventually. The lack of competency will surface and become clear to his
bosses. The overall goal of the company is to turn a profit and anything that
jeopardizes that (illegal/bad behavior, bad press, lost revenue/profit, etc)
will be removed. It may not happen as fast as you'd like but it will happen.

~~~
nicoburns
This seems pretty passive aggressive. Wouldn't it be better to be proactive
and bring it to their attention of their manager directly? i.e. request a
private with problematic person's manager and outline concerns. Generally you
shouldn't go over your manager's head, but when that person is the problem
then in my mind that's an exception.

If it goes badly then it is time to start looking for a new job. But if you
have a reasonable company culture then it shouldn't do. This is why employees
(even senior ones) have managers.

~~~
clort
I'm sure I read a story like this on HN only a few months ago. Unfortunately,
the new guy was put in place because he had previous connections with the
upper levels. So, that didn't go well.

Realistically, the new guy is the manager. His managers put him in place
because they thought he was the best for the job. Perhaps for reasons we don't
know about, perhaps they are incompetent or perhaps they think he is the best
thing since sliced bread and he misled them.

I appreciate your exception 'if you have a reasonable company culture' but the
truth is that of the ones that do, some of it is faked and I think the
likelihood of bringing their failure to their attention and having them
appreciate it is actually quite low.

If I thought somebody was listening in to my private conversations I might
start having false private conversations and see if they pick up on that. If
they do then that might be a crime of its own.

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thewanisdown
Start practicing CYA (Cover Your Ass) diligently. Follow all of the rules,
document everything (email follow ups for any any conversation), and be
tactful at all times. Give him no space to find fault, and have proof. Discuss
your concerns with HR if you can.

Personally, I would be looking for an exit, either mine or his.

~~~
deedubaya
> Discuss your concerns with HR if you can.

Be wary of this. HR exists to protect the company and void litigation, not
necessarily to protect the employee or the employee's work environment.

~~~
notRobot
Indeed. HR is not your friend. It exists to cover the employer's ass.

@OP consider asking for advice on
[https://workplace.stackexchange.com](https://workplace.stackexchange.com)

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gjvc
Win by not fighting. People like this are a red flag that there are bigger
things wrong in the organisation. Unless it is your family's firm, it's not
your place and it's really not your concern to be fixing it -- even if you
succeed in doing so, it's highly unlikely you'll see any reward for it.

There is a non-fiscal cost as well. The more this is a subject weighing on
your mind, the tighter your mind will wrap around it and the more difficult it
will become to extricate yourself.

You can always get paid elsewhere, but you can never get the time back. Do not
waste it in situations like this with people like this. Even if you win, it's
still time spent you could have been doing better elsewhere.

Finally, always remember that this too shall pass. Good luck.

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duxup
If you can't even get a meeting with the guy, that's a pretty bad sign.
Communication requires two folks and if he won't even sit down with you,
there's not much hope.

You're right that there's probabbly not much choice but to move on.

CYA in the meantime, be the model employee. If he does feel threatened by you,
you do not want to get into a conflict with him considering you're already
having a hard time with it.

Work on where you might want to go and start applying. Look forward to finding
a new / better place with cool things to do and good people.

------
speedgoose
It's a tricky situation.

Note that anyone in a company can be replaced. So you could work your way to
have him replaced before he replaces you.

Keep proofs of what you are doing, proofs that he cannot edit or remove and
that you will still have if you lose your job. Be very polite and professional
in your communications, and prefer emails. It's easier to show to others.

You can talk to others in the company, especially above him, not only in your
group. However be careful about who you talk to and what you say, human
resources is usually not on your side. They don't work for you but for the
company. So try to be positive and useful for the company and consider that
firing you may be the easiest conflict resolution for the company, but that
firing the new executive could also be seen as the best solution.

But you may want to wait a few weeks before starting the hostilities, and
perhaps have some jobs leads just in case.

In my opinion, your company will find a good solution that will please
everyone. If not, you should find a new company.

~~~
loopz
Working on getting someone replaced seems a very unhealthy and unprofessional
kind of conflict resolution.

~~~
speedgoose
That's actually true. But life is too short to deal with terrible people many
hours a week if you can afford not to.

Perhaps the best professional and healthy solution is to find a new job if the
conflict isn't resolved in good time.

------
davidajackson
I think if you're in a company where you feel you can't bring an issue up to
someone above you, something is wrong. I would go talk to someone about it or
leave the job.

My experience working with people who don't have discussions (or they only
have "1" way ones) is they are bad at their job so they have to be defensive
all the time.

~~~
outworlder
> I think if you're in a company where you feel you can't bring an issue up to
> someone above you, something is wrong

If you are going to "skip level", be already prepared to "skip jobs". I don't
care what open door policy your company has. You are the weakest link.

~~~
davidajackson
> You are the weakest link.

>> OP: They never ask for anyone's opinion or advice. They seem to be intent
on dictating everything. When they run a meeting, they do not let anyone
discuss the topic. The meetings are highly controlled.

This exec sounds like the weakest link. I have seen execs straight up make up
revenue projections to match their agenda/plans... and it always ends badly.

~~~
outworlder
> This exec sounds like the weakest link.

You don't know how this exec managed to get their position. Also, if they are
still at the stage they can fake their numbers, whatever these may be, OP is
screwed. It may take time for the exec's obvious incompetence to start to
show.

EDIT: also, a manager or executive is NEVER in a weaker position compared to
"individual contributors". They can still fire your ass until their last day
of employment.

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watertom
First, is the manager new to the group or new to the organization?

If the manager new to the group then you need to be careful, could be
someone's buddy,relative, or has been tagged for "great things" by senior
management. Do your homework on the new person first.

Even if the person is new to the organization, they still may be connected in
your organization.

The fact that he doesn't want to talk to you means he either wants you gone or
already has a plan in place to make you gone, he might have a friend he wants
to hire.

I got whacked from a job that way. New CEO, hires his buddy. I report to the
buddy, the buddy won't speak with me ever, for any reason. He holds 1-1's with
everyone but me. He even has rules for how the 1-1's take place, no
communication for me. I was working on something very important for the
company, once I finished the work, it took 8 months. Two days later I got a
meeting invite from him, entitled "catch up". I assumed I was getting fired.
When I got on the call, the first thing out of my mouth was, "Hello Mr.s VP of
HR" I shocked the hell out of her, then proceeded to tell her the my boss
never speaks to me and since he sent me an invite after completing my project
it must of have meant that I was getting fired.

I got fired on Friday, and my replacement started on Monday, he worked with
the my boss and the CEO at their previous company. I found out later that
being able to hire the friend was part of the agreement before my boss took
his job. I got fired without my boss ever having spoken to me. Apparently he
was incredibly impressed with me, but he wanted his buddy.

------
downerending
Hard to know without more detail, but if your boss is a "fear biter", you
should be looking hard for a new job.

In the meantime, one (unpleasant) strategy that has worked for me in the past
is to start adoring them at every possible opportunity. This can't be snarky--
you have to make it seem authentic.

Also, check out on trying to get anything done. Just go with the flow, don't
go out of your way to fix things.

No way to live, of course, so work on that next job.

------
badrabbit
If you just want it to be over say things he likes,be very nice and find
something better. In the mean time don't let it get to you. The world is full
of small insecure people who don't have a grasp on how short a human life is.

If you want to fight and win, use misinformation techniques to frustrate him.
Say things that could be misunderstood by him that will hurt his ego ajd cause
him to act without thinking things through. When confronted (ideally in front
of others) play the plausibly deniable interpretation of what you said to mean
something he/she would appreciate or be flatterd by. I highly recommend
reading aesop's children's fables for ideas. Just remember, your end goal
should always be to promote him or people he likes and to never act in bad
faith.

I've been in a worse situation. To me, I thought about it a lot and it came
down to whether or not I should wrestle with pigs. I get all dirty but they
have all the fun. Life is short. "This too shall pass away".

------
celticninja
chat some believable but wrong information, see if he repeats it. it's a bit
of a canary trap as he is unlikely to have got the same wrong information from
another source, so it confirms you thoughts of spying. but that's about all
you can do, if he discovers the obvious sabotage though it may cause you
trouble.

~~~
cafard
I would invent a piece of jargon that is plausible, but not in use. Drop that
in, and see whether it surfaces.

------
fred_is_fred
> I have become convinced he is somehow listening in to my conversations using
> the company communications app

Who would have time to do this in addition to their normal responsibilities?

~~~
3minus1
Yeah I'm surprised no one else questioned this. If I'm being blunt, when I
hear "this person is sending me secret messages when they talk" the first
thing I think of is paranoid schizophrenia. Also "my device is bugged and
someone is listening" sounds quite paranoid. I'm not saying the OP is wrong,
but the vibes are there, and I would recommend they talk to a medical
professional.

------
FireBeyond
I had a boss who did something similar - not to me, but to one of our people
who was problematic, technically. He decided/ realized that this person would
often not really contribute anything, but just parrot and regurgitate things
without any intrinsic understanding.

So he'd start throwing in things that were wrong. Wait til they agreed with
it, or repeated it later, and then "Oh, wait - I totally mispoke, I meant xxx,
not yyy!"

------
mikebos
I see a lot of CYA, this only works to a certain point depending on your
manager his/her people skills. There are basically two paths to stay
financially safe, do whatever it takes to keep working there by kissing ass or
whatever. Or get a nice exit check, for this talk to a lawyer. His behaviour
may be against the law if proven and may enable that check.

------
bb88
First, all large companies have the ability to snoop on employee's emails and
communications. It's also possible that managers have asked for this
capability to monitor their employees. So no real surprises there.

Reason can always be found for termination. So it's probably not worthwhile
trying to fight it.

People think that managers are super fair, but it turns out many of them are
more like Trump, specifically with the fragile ego aspect. Simple compliments,
undeserved or not, go a long way to help stabilize his ego, and his treatment
of you. Ideally your ideas become his ideas.

I know it sucks, but you have zero power in this relationship. So either you
play ball with the guy, or you quit and find a job that's more about the job
and less about ego stroking.

------
ZenPsycho
Feed him false information to sabotage him.

------
dubs333
hang in there brother, jobs are rare right now. change the key, port and lock
up comm. cruise control. safety dance.

