
Sleep is more important than food - panarky
http://blogs.hbr.org/schwartz/2011/03/sleep-is-more-important-than-f.html
======
winestock
Schools such as Caltech and MIT have rigorous curricula that proverbially
requires constant study every day of the week just to stay in the middle of
the pack. Naturally, most students cut back on sleep. Proponents of this
approach are aware of this, even boast about it, saying that this is the best
way to learn the material.

On the other hand, numerous studies -- including the link at the top of this
page -- conclude that this is the worst way to get anything done.

They can't both be right.

~~~
mjfern
Even more disconcerting is the sleeping culture/routine throughout medical
residency and fellowship; arguably, the most important stages of medical
education, where doctors in training learn the hands-on skills to practice
medicine. Despite the importance of learning during this stage, individuals
are routinely sleep-deprived:

"20% of all residents reported sleeping an average of 5 hours or less per
night, with 66% averaging 6 hours or less per night. Residents averaging 5 or
fewer hours of sleep per night were more likely to report serious accidents or
injuries, conflict with other professional staff, use of alcohol, use of
medications to stay awake, noticeable weight change, working in an "impaired
condition," and having made significant medical errors." \-
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15124713>

A Wikipedia article focused on medical resident work hours:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_resident_work_hours>

~~~
silverlake
I've asked many doctors about this. They insist that they are not effected by
sleep deprivation. They claim it is safer to have the same doctor for 24-48
hours rather than hand off a patient to a new, fresh doctor.

~~~
plastics
The problem with sleep deprivation is that unless you have an objective way of
measuring your (mental) performance you're usually not able to realize when it
declines, because your're self monitoring capabilities decline as well.

A simple test, that worked very well for me, was testing my reading speed (I
know it is only a weak indicator for mental acuity, but it is easy and fast to
test).

Under perfect conditions (well rested, optimal nutrition, completely silent
room, no visual distractions, after mediation and a good cup of green tea) I
am able to read about 800 WPM (which is not to bad) of the kind of text I
usually need to read with good retention. For me this declines rapidly to less
than 200 WPM (which is quite bad for a "knowledge worker") with sleep
deprivation and/or a noisy environment, even though I _believe_ I am doing
fine.

That being said, even though I would say that doctors are handicapped "mental
performance" is handicapped by their working conditions, I fully agree that it
is better for patient safety to not hand off a patient to a new doctor say
every 8 or 12 hours due to the amount implicit knowledge that a doctor gathers
during a >24h time period about his patients that can't be transferred in a
handoff.

Software Developers, imagine what a screw up it would be if you'd have to hand
off your code every 8h to another developer, who'd have to continue right were
you left... add to this not having a version control system, spotty test
coverage and highly ambiguous specifications

~~~
billybob
"due to the amount implicit knowledge that a doctor gathers during a >24h time
period about his patients that can't be transferred in a handoff."

While this may be true, the process of the handoff could be vastly improved.
My wife is a resident, and the quality of info she gets during a patient
handoff varies drastically, from detailed notes in a computer, correlated to
medical history, to scrawled notes on paper. Sometimes she has to start from
square 1.

Maybe the reason handoffs are harmful is because they're done poorly. And
maybe they're done poorly because the doctor who's handing off is freaking
exhausted.

------
jonmc12
I'm surprised this article is at the top of HN. 1) It is not the announcement
of a research study, rather it is just referencing previous hbr blogs and
sleepfoundation.org's general guidelines for sleep. 2) It offers no unique
advice. 3) The title is basic linkbait (ie, its not really about food vs
sleep).

Why the upvotes? is it because everyone is tired?

~~~
jey
The research is voluminous and has been around for a long time. Articles like
this make the results easy for us normals to digest.

[http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=sleep+deprivation&hl...](http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=sleep+deprivation&hl=en&btnG=Search&as_sdt=1%2C5&as_sdtp=on)

~~~
jonmc12
I think this is what surprises me - this is hacker news, not normals news. How
interesting is a safe interpretation of the research that conforms to what I
was taught in 2nd grade? Its like someone posted an article extolling the
virtues of the food pyramid or something. Even my doctor has a more liberal
interpretation of the research than this particular author (and he is probably
more qualified to make this interpretation).

In the past I've experimented with quantities of sleep, polyphasic sleep,
measuring sleep quality, light / sound in the room, sleep supplements, etc,
etc. Why? because sleep takes up 25-30% of _my life_. Its a no brainer
activity for me to try to hack and optimize. Further, given sleep is such a
big part of all of our lives, I'm surprised more people on this site do not
have a similar mindset about experimenting and tweaking their sleep patterns.

Show me some articles with new research, personal experiments, or useful tips
that can allow me to hack my sleep - these kind of interpretations are much
more useful to digest.

~~~
pinchyfingers
I'm no longer surprised by the number of dumbass articles from HBR, New York
Times, and the like. In fact, it's boring me and I think I'll take a nap :-)

~~~
webuiarchitect
And the moment you say something like this; they down-rate you. Great going,
HN.

~~~
eli
It did nothing to advance the discussion in any meaningful way. If you don't
like this article, don't read it. If you _really_ think it's awful and doesn't
belong on HN, then flag it.

------
ylem
I have mixed feelings about this. I'm someone who sleeps on average 6
hours/night. When I have experiments, then I sometimes drop down to 4
hrs/night. I've found that I can manage with 4 hrs/night for about a week (it
has gotten a bit harder with age)--BUT I know that I'm not as effective or
creative when dealing with such little amounts of sleep. I also know that I'm
more prone to make errors and try to develop habits so that I do the "right
thing (TM)" when I'm too tired to think (it's like martial arts where you
train reflexes...). I also try to know when to throw in the towel and just go
home because if I stay I'm likely enough to make a mistake that will cost me
more time in the end, or I need sleep so that I can think about something.

However, in normal running mode, 6 hrs (as long as I'm getting exercise) feels
normal to me and it's what I sleep even without an alarm unless I'm recovering
from severe sleep deprivation (I don't drink coffee and generally just drink
tea when I really need to stay awake...). What are other people's experiences?
Somehow the dark room scenario in the article seems unrealistic. I do agree
that for creative work that more sleep (in my case 6 hr/night) seems necessary
--but if I find myself sleeping longer (like say 9 hrs), then I just end up
feeling more tired...

~~~
adriand
I'm with you on this. Like most people, I would like to consistently get 7-8
hours of sleep a night, but I've got two young children, a packed work
schedule, and volunteer commitments. These days I'm operating on about 5 hours
of sleep per night and I'm functioning fine. If I wasn't up at 5:00 am to get
a couple of hours of work in before my kids are up at 7, I'd be falling behind
right now.

I'm probably making more errors than I would normally but they're mainly
minor. By about 8:00 pm I get pretty fatigued and I may nap for 10 minutes at
this time, to recharge for the evening.

The work I am doing is challenging but for the moment doesn't require a lot of
creativity, so the tradeoff between the sheer amount of work I can get done
versus the decrease in errors is worth it to me at the moment.

I do exercise pretty consistently however (approx. 4 times/week for 30 to 45
minutes) and I find this invaluable in terms of keeping me less stressed and
more productive.

------
nopassrecover
"So how much sleep do you need? When researchers put test subjects in
environments without clocks or windows and ask them to sleep any time they
feel tired, 95 percent sleep between seven and eight hours out of every 24.
Another 2.5 percent sleep more than eight hours."

The broken link there is meant to point to
([http://www.sleepfoundation.org/article/how-sleep-
works/how-m...](http://www.sleepfoundation.org/article/how-sleep-works/how-
much-sleep-do-we-really-need)) and I can't spot where it mentions this study.

In any case, you put me in a room with no clock or windows (and presumably no
serious stimuli as it's likely to influence the results) and I can bet you
I'll sleep twice as much - out of pure boredom.

~~~
dazmax
I think the theory is that once you've fully slept off your sleep debt (which
I've heard can be up to 40 hours) you are no longer able to sleep much more
than your natural sleep requirement, bored or not.

~~~
hucker
Very interesting, do you have any sources on this? If I forget to set my alarm
I can easily sleep for 14-16 hours before I wake, any day of the week. If one
possible solution to this is to go on a total sleeping binge for a week or so
I'd be thrilled!

------
hoag
Preparing for the California Bar Exam was a fascinating experience for me. Not
only was it the most mentally challenging endeavor I had ever undertaken, it
proved to be the most psychologically challenging as well.

Fortunately, our two bar prep professors were not only licensed attorneys, but
also Ph.D.s in neuropsychology. Part of our rigorous training therefore was
not simply learning the law, but actually learning _how_ to learn -- in
particular, how to store and recall so much data on demand -- and above all,
how to manage our time. (It turns out the human brain is actually quite good
at _writing_ and _storing_ data, but really bad at what can be best described
as "random access memory" operations: recalling random data at will,
instantly.)

A great deal of emphasis was placed on structuring _extremely_ precise "living
schedules," for example, what to study when, for how long, when to eat, what
meals, and above all, how and when to sleep. And how to force ourselves to
sleep when we couldn't.

Long story short, forcing ourselves onto regular sleeping patterns was both
immediately necessary and yet proved to be one of the hardest disciplines to
learn: to force yourself to stop studying at a given hour (typically 10PM)
even in the midst of learning something, and allow time to drive home, have a
snack, rest, unwind, and then fall asleep by 11PM, to then awaken at 7 and be
back at the library at 8... every single day, for 2 months... that was truly
an act of willpower. Especially for me, as I've always been the personality
type where, once I start doing or learning something, I can't stop until it's
totally finished or mastered. Forcing myself to stop studying without having
yet completed the particular matter was excruciatingly difficult.

The same thing proved true for the three-day bar exam itself of course: had to
sleep between 9 and 10PM and awaken by 6AM, with virtually no studying at all
in between days. At this point, you just had to trust your brain to marinate
on all that it had absorbed in the 2 months leading up to those fateful three
days.

Looking back on it now, it was due largely to my discipline with sleeping
habits that I was able to pass the bar on my first try.

~~~
forensic
You're assigning your success to disciplined sleeping habits which seems very
strange.

I would ascribe your success to proper nutrition, proper mnemonics, adequate
sleep, and lots of studying.

Getting enough sleep (and not too much) is important but what is the advantage
of keeping it within those tight boundaries? The natural human sleep cycle is
often running on non-24 hour cycles and the science I've seen indicates that
if you CAN work on these cycles it enhances memory, cognition and creativity.

I don't understand why you give so much credit to your rigid sleep schedule,
especially because all the science I've seen indicates that what is important
is getting adequate sleep and then studying properly, not sleeping at
particular times.

~~~
hoag
I am certain that disciplined sleeping habits had a _lot_ to do with it:
absent the discipline, I would have often gone to bed around two or three in
the morning, gotten less sleep -- or less quality sleep -- and, were I to have
maintained this haphazard schedule, would have _never_ been able to have set
my biological clock to the necessary 10-6 sleeping schedule required for the
three days of the exam itself. Beginning at 8AM, we had to be there by 7-730
or so, and I had to allow time for an adequate (light) breakfast.

Obviously I didn't mean to exclude the value of the actual studying, I'm just
saying that studying -- without proper sleep and sleeping schedule -- would
have lead to physical and mental and fatigue. And the nature of the bar exam
material makes it virtually impossible to adequately perform on a sleep-
starved mind.

------
amitraman1
Sleep rocks! I am in the 2.5% that sleep 8 hours or more. I am much more
productive during the day as a result. I am alert, my brain spins faster and I
can take on more challenges. My friend is a superstar scientist/M.D. and he
sleeps 9 or more hours a day.

The "executives" who sleep < 7 hours need to fine a hour more. If I was a
board member, I'd insist my C-level team sleep 8 hours!

------
giu
A tool I've been using for the past days: <http://sleepyti.me/>

I'm currently testing it. The last two days I went to bed at a time which the
tool suggested; getting up wasn't much of an issue, and I felt some
improvements, but it's definitely too early to say that it works for me.

~~~
adamzap
sleep_times = [wake_time - 1.5 * x for x in range(3, 7)][::-1]

Is that really all that's happening here?

~~~
kvdr
Yep. Basically one sleep cycle is 90mins. So it just gives you 3-4 times based
on minimum 2 cycles. Nothing fancy.

------
brd
"Sleep is important" has been a recurring theme for the last couple of years
but I am one of the few that don't buy into it at all. Maybe I fall into the
2.5% but if I sleep 8+ hours I feel overslept and groggy. I function
moderately to exceptionally well on 6 hours of sleep and often times end up
getting more like 3-5 hours of sleep.

I've read articles about high functioning executives that barely sleep at all
and seen studies about less sleep improving lifespan along with all the
standard sleep is so important articles. I think its safe to say the jury is
still out on this subject and keep hoping it doesn't continue to over saturate
the news/science pipeline for much longer. Until there is a definitive answer
you'll continue hearing me say "sleep is overrated".

~~~
nopassrecover
I agree for the most part. However, try going for a regular run (say 5km) once
per week, same day, and track your times. Let's say you hit about 30 minutes
first time, and get it down to around 20 mins over a couple of weeks. Now try
greater sleep deprivation than normal one week and watch your time plummet.

~~~
dean
I find the same sort of result with coding on little sleep. While it _feels_
like I'm "high functioning" while coding at 4:00AM, a code review in the light
of day after a good night's sleep often reveals that I wasn't.

~~~
danielsoneg
I've begun to suspect this is because we don't notice all the little issues
we'd notice if we were more awake - at 4AM, the code is Flying, because I'm
not stopping to realize how crappy the code is.

~~~
jacques_chester
I've had similar experiences. If I am very tired I don't get "coder's block",
but the code is often rubbish.

------
nostrademons
I totally agreed with the headline, but the evidence in the article doesn't
really support it. You might as well say that water is more important than
sleep, because you _die_ if you go more than about 3 days without water. The
length of time your body can go without something has little relation to how
your body acts when deprived of small amounts of that thing, or how it acts
when faced with short-term, quickly corrected deficiencies.

Heck, _breathing_ is more important than all those things. Go without it for 4
minutes and you're dead. However, many people recommend controlling and
slowing your breathing as a way to relax. Is that breathing deprivation?

~~~
CWuestefeld
Agreed. The OP conflates _significance_ and _urgency_. There a many things
that are extremely important, yet there is no need to attend to them at a
given moment.

The OP defeats a straw man. He argues against complete deprivation of sleep,
yet his conclusion is based on sleep that isn't _limited_ at all. Proving that
something can't be done without entirely is far removed from proving that we
can't cut back a bit.

He might be right, but for an article intended to be persuasive, he does a bad
job of supporting his thesis.

------
gordonbowman
I was hoping to see some sleep hacks in the comments here. The author cites a
few in the article:

1) Naps 2) Go to bed earlier 3) Start winding down at least 45 minutes before
4) Write down what's on your mind

Does anyone here have any other sleep hacks to share?

~~~
rokhayakebe
4) Stop using an alarm. Wake up when your body tells you to.

~~~
hucker
If I do that I wake up at 4 p.m. What is my body trying to tell me?

~~~
blrgeek
You need exercise?

------
Splatchar
Sleep may be more important than food but, interestingly, there seems to be a
relationship between sleep and food. When fasting, less sleep is required.
However, when sleep is curtailed, there is a greater desire for food.

~~~
Vivtek
I always figured if you're awake instead of asleep, you're actually consuming
more calories and thus need more food.

------
matthodan
Has anyone ever successfully sued a company for sleep deprivation? I know
investment banks are notorious for requiring junior staff to work without
sleep, lest they lose their bonus (or worse).

------
sarahmccrum
I used to sleep 8 to 9 hours a night, and often could have slept more, until I
learned how to relax and recharge my energy. Now I need around 4 to 6 hours
(absolute max) and I never feel tired, even if I work late, 7 days a week etc
etc.

Over the last 12 years, when I have worked with many people with a wide range
of sleep problems, I have discovered that the problem is not in fact that we
do not get enough sleep. I think that with the expectations we put on
ourselves these days it is almost impossible to get enough sleep. I found that
sleep (and food and the other methods we use) is simply not powerful enough to
recharge our batteries properly.

Probably 50 years ago it was enough to eat 3 meals a day, sleep 8 hours a
night, have weekends and a few weeks holidays every year and so on. My
grandfather used to work in the City of London (financial district) and they
went to the office in the morning, had a long, sociable lunch and didn't do
much else for the rest of the day. Look at bankers and other financial people
today and there is simply no comparison. So I believe it will become more and
more essential for people to find ways of recharging their energy that are
much more powerful than sleep, holidays etc. That's why we are seeing an
increase in the number of people meditating, doing yoga and lots of other
practices that build energy levels as well as rest.

------
briandoll
If you're interested in a more anthropological perspective on sleep and its
importance, check out "Lights Out: Sleep, Sugar and Survival"
([http://www.amazon.com/Lights-Out-Sleep-Sugar-
Survival/dp/067...](http://www.amazon.com/Lights-Out-Sleep-Sugar-
Survival/dp/0671038680))

------
sp4rki
I am guessing that the 2.5% that needs under 8 hours of sleep is composed
mainly of people in the tech industry. If I sleep under 5 hours I feel a bit
groggy all morning, but if I sleep more than 6 ~ 6 1/2 hours, I feel like
utter shit all day long. Incredibly, I was speaking about this same topic with
some fellow coworkers and 5 (counting myself) out of 7 felt the same. It might
be that they're bullshitting me or maybe the statistics are wrong, but the
lack of sleep (as in the people that actually need less daily sleep, not the
one's that do so because of lack of 'time') seems to have a correlation with
professions that require staring at a screen all daylong. Anyways, in my
experience, the number of people that need less than 8 hours of sleep is
hugely over 2.5% of the population.

------
orijing
Something I observed from reading the comments here:

A lot of us can function on much fewer hours of sleep regularly and don't
believe it adversely affects our performance (It does affect mine though).
Does anyone think there may be some selection going on here?

What I mean is, perhaps it's true that HN's distribution is more skewed toward
the side of people who need less sleep (and hence has more productive hours in
the day) and are willing to sleep less in order to get things done. Maybe we
don't really represent the general population.

Just a warning in case anyone takes our testimonials too seriously.

~~~
KC8ZKF
Everybody thinks they are above average. "I can exceed the speed limits,
because I am an excellent driver." "I need less sleep than the average
person."

------
TorbjornLunde
“If you leave items in your working memory, they'll make it harder to fall
asleep, and you'll end up ruminating about them if you should wake up during
the night.”

Avoiding thinking about things when you go to bed is something I am struggling
quite a bit with. I will sure try out to write down my thoughts.

Any other advice to avoid your mind thinking too much when it should be
winding down?

~~~
lawnchair_larry
I find that listening to interesting music helps. This stimulates my brain
just enough to prevent my mind from wandering. Otherwise, yeah, I end up
thinking about my unfinished business, or think of "one more thing to try real
quick" and then lose hours.

Contrary to some advice, I fall asleep pretty well with the TV on or
something. If there is nothing stimulating at all, I just toss and turn and
think about what else I'd rather be doing. I need a "light distraction" to put
myself on idle, or I will start to actively invent my own.

------
derekmdurkin
Sleep is very important but you cannot discuss proper sleep or proper
nutrition without the other.

There have been numerous studies showing a correlation between a healthy diet
and sleep requirements. People who eat healthy have more energy and feel less
tired throughout the day. In the same regard people with an unhealthy diet
tend to feel more tired and nap more often and for longer periods of time.

Eating foods with a low glycemic index throughout the day will keep you
grounded, preventing sugar highs and lows, and overall make you feel less
tired.

My personal opinion based on my lifestyle is that my nutrition decisions
directly affect my sleep requirements. I think it is most important to begin
the day with a healthy breakfast upon waking up. This meal should include
plenty of fiber, protein, and omega-3 fats.

------
JoeAltmaier
Hey! Put me in a locked room with no windows and no clocks, and I'll sleep 7
hours too - out of boredom.

------
Jach
Just take some melatonin and force yourself to sleep in 30 minutes. (Plus it
makes 7 hours feel like 8 hours.)

If you're still unconvinced: <http://www.gwern.net/Melatonin.html>

~~~
jacques_chester
Experiment with doses, however. I found that I could be groggy on rising if I
took the standard 3mg.

------
miles
Apparently not for everyone:

Ngoc Thai: The Man Who Doesn’t Sleep
<http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/content/view/2855/>

------
kgtm
I wish there was a way for me to sleep less than 9 hours. At least now i have
a great excuse for people calling me lazy. I am special!

~~~
faragon
Try with daily jogging (30-40 minutes/day). I bet you'll feel better and will
have enough sleeping 7.5-8h.

------
davidmurphy
I recommend the book "Power Sleep" by Cornell professor James Maas.

[http://www.amazon.com/Power-Sleep-Revolutionary-Prepares-
Per...](http://www.amazon.com/Power-Sleep-Revolutionary-Prepares-
Performance/dp/0060977604/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1286296474&sr=1-1)

Exceptional book that really transformed my college experience.

------
mikecarlton
Can't think straight because you're too tired? !Try a power nap! A 15 minutes
nap in the afternoon (use the timer on your iphone to not oversleep) and
you'll be good as new.

------
jmulho
> _I still take the overnight "redeye" from California to New York, but I'm
> asleep by takeoff --even if takes an Ambien._

Seriously? I bought the guy's argument up until that point.

------
mhitza
I was suffering from insomnia for almost 6 days last December, it was an
experience, but not one I would ever like to happen again.

------
xfilesnetworks
yes sounds true. Sleep relax whole your body and thats better to feel.

i guess atleast 8 hours sleep is needed as my doctor said me.

you can also watch this video to help you more
[http://www.warezvilla.net/tutorials/23345-deep-mind-brain-
ev...](http://www.warezvilla.net/tutorials/23345-deep-mind-brain-
evolution.html)

------
Jem
This guy obviously doesn't have any young children at home. I've forgotten
what a good night's sleep is ;)

------
webuiarchitect
It is obvious to notice that, this is yet another useless research stat.

Everything is equally important for life to survive, breathing, drinking
water, food, sleep, exercise. How does it matter if breathing is more
important that exercise? It is common sense; you obviously breath more than
you do exercise.

------
jcromartie
Subtext: we're torturing Bradley Manning.

------
atrevisan
Isn't Red Bull the same thing as sleep?

------
mrspandex
People say that you'll die... faster than without water but we know it's just
a lie Scare your son, scare your daughter

------
emilyjp
For more information about how to adjust your schedule so that you can fit in
the essential 7-8 hours of sleep, why powering down before sleep is so
critical and how to do it, and the secret to falling back sleep when you wake
up and begin ruminating, register for Tony Schwartz' webinar, Sleep or Die, on
March 22 at 1pm EST. Sign up at
[https://theenergyproject.webex.com/theenergyproject/onstage/...](https://theenergyproject.webex.com/theenergyproject/onstage/g.php?t=a&d=660947476)

