
On Improving When Your Friends Aren’t - acangiano
http://www.sebastianmarshall.com/on-improving-when-your-friends-arent
======
PStamatiou
I have a very close group of 3 friends that I have known for at least 6 years
each. We all come from immigrant families, went to a competitive, top 100 high
school and all did well and went to good schools. We're all 24 now and two of
them are busy hopping from job to job to find the biggest paycheck, bragging
about their $160k base salaries (consulting/private equity) not including
bonuses and how they quadrupled their savings with margins trading. Then
there's me and my other friend in this group.

I've only ever done startups and the closest I've been to a BigCorp job was a
yahoo internship. The aforementioned two friends just don't understand the
world of startups and think I'm wasting my time and setting myself up for
financial disaster. The other friend is on his 7th year of college. He picked
majors because they were highly regarded and he saw that we were doing similar
things, but did not interest him. Over the years he looked at our relative
career success, did not think he possessed any real skills for the workforce
and became suicidal, attempting to kill himself twice. Saved the first time
because of a malfunctioning old handgun and the second because of a goodbye
email he sent to the 3 of us. I check my email way too often and saw the email
first and called 911 and then kept him on the phone.

I'm not quite sure what the moral is, but it seemed relevant and I wanted to
share. I wish my friends did what they loved and not what their peers thought
was cool or society deemed worthy. None of them love what they do.

~~~
swombat
_The aforementioned two friends just don't understand the world of startups
and think I'm wasting my time and setting myself up for financial disaster._

Who knows, they might even be right...

~~~
ct
Or wrong...

If you don't love what you do it's probably not worth it in the long run.
Doing a startup isn't necessarily going to put you in a financial disaster. It
just makes the end result more volatile.

The way I look at it is with life there's a bell curve (maybe not normally
distributed but still a curve distribution). Those with a steady consulting
job will fall into the "average" middle area of the curve and be "safe"
financially and might not ever be poor OR rich for that matter.

Those taking risks like in a startup would more invariably end up on one side
of the curve (either on the side that makes you poor due to debt etc, or
extremely rich but most likely you won't end up as an "average" middle area
where everyone else is and regret not taking any chances in your life).

------
niyazpk
After all the books I've read, after all the time I've spent on learning,
solving problems and exercising my brain, after all the self-
help/marketing/how-to blogs I've gone through, after all the effort I've taken
on becoming a better person, after all the sacrifices I've made by going out
of my way to help other people to make their lives better, I have found that
there are many people who are better than me in many ways I cannot even begin
to imagine, not because they try to be, not because they are more intelligent
than me, not because they have any incentive to be, not because they are
better educated, but probably because they just _are_ , probably because they
grasp the beauty of life better than me on a scale that I am not able to
comprehend, probably because there is more to life than being successful and
being better, whatever that means, or probably because of some other reasons I
will never understand.

~~~
wahnfrieden
It seems like being depressed over that conclusion is just a form of vanity.
It's a fine line between comparing yourself to others in order to learn from
them and reevaluate your direction, and comparing to satisfy or starve your
ego.

~~~
niyazpk
Exactly my point. :)

------
dools
Your friends don't have to be "useful to you". Real friends are waiting there
for you when you take a break from work to have fun, relax and shoot the
breeze.

I've worked maniacally for the past 4 or 5 years and declined many many social
invitations because I was focused on building my business. I would never EVER
express that as "improving when my friends aren't" and I find this attitude
deplorable.

They're just living life differently to me. They don't get in the way of the
way I want to live my life at all and when I take a break I go hang out with
them and we have fun - it's just that I don't do that very often.

There is no difference between focusing on a business, focusing on education,
focusing on raising a child or on a new relationship.

It seems like such a cliche that you "improve" somehow and leave everyone else
behind and then see them later in the street with your new friends and ignore
them as you walk by and make them all jealous with how much better you've
become.

Life just doesn't have to be like that. True friends are friends forever
regardless of whatever life projects you're working on and if you're incapable
of maintaining friendships with people who aren't living exactly the same life
as you then there is something wrong with you.

The whole "I want to win so I surround myself with winners" approach is just
admitting that you're so susceptible to peer pressure that the only way you
can succeed in life is to set yourself up with a bunch of friends who will
force you to succeed. That's a strategy for addicts, not winners.

------
dustyreagan
What does "improving" even mean when it comes to life? Sometimes friends drift
apart when their common interests change. The end. Put the ego aside.

~~~
ryanwaggoner
I want this to be true, but I don't think it is. I really do think a lot of
people just kind of drift through life, being reactive rather than proactive,
with little in the way of goals or ambition. I don't necessarily know if
there's anything wrong with that (topic for another day), but it does seem
valid to say that they're not interested in "improving". Maybe that's the
wrong word; maybe "optimizing" captures it better. Regardless, some of my best
friends are those who I share surprisingly little in terms of common
interests. But what we do share is that we don't want a life adrift, and we're
working hard to achieve the things we care about. To me, that's what
"improving at life" means.

~~~
antareus
Reactive versus proactive captures the notion perfectly. I'm not content to be
reactive. I was that way for too long, but I realized it was a cover for fear.
It is hard for me to relate to the reactive mindset now. I feel like
codependent-prone individuals smell the change and try to follow you around.

I want to be able to relate to everyone well, but there's a point at which the
mismatch emerges, and it is unfortunate. It just means my interests are
changing.

------
JVerstry
I split from some friends about 20 years ago...

We were a group of 5 top friends at high school. We were popular,
entertaining, going on vacation together, you name it.... At college, we
carried on meeting, going to parties, but something became odd for me. It was
obvious they were willing to carry on with immature/teenager activities and I
wasn't...

I just did not enjoy it anymore. It was not in me. I had grown up. I told 3 of
them I was not willing to participate to this anymore. The 5th one did not
care, we always got along well. In fact, he was participating in those
juvenile activities less and less too and developed his own branch of friends.

Two really take it badly, as if it was some kind of betrayal. They adopted a
dogma attitude. I knew them since I was 5 years old. They reacted emotionally
and would not address the maturity issues. It was a one-sided conversation.
They carried on their juveniles games until their early thirties.

I was even replaced by another guy to fill the gap. When #4 got married, my
replacement was invited to the full ceremony and I was only invited to the
cocktail. He knew my replacement for a couple of years then, I knew him for
more than 20. It was a bit of a shock, but not a real surprise.

I knew they were acting juvenile beyond their 20's to cover for their
insecurities and lack of will to become mature and responsible. Today, we are
connected on Facebook and exchange messages from time to time. I do not regret
the split 20 years ago. I got to meet different people and developed new
fulfilling relationships.

------
lsc
>In a way, to put it bluntly, they’re not usefull to me.

(yes, I know this was the author quoting /someone else/ but I think the rest
of the article was saying something very similar, albeit in a much more
tactful way.)

Huh. I guess I have a similar exploitive attitude, but it drives me in the
opposite direction. Having poor friends is /incredibly useful/ - need help
moving but don't want to reciprocate? call up your highschool buddy who works
at home depot. He'll be happy to help you out for a few bucks. It's only weird
if you make it weird.

I've always kind of gravitated towards people who are smarter than I am, so my
highschool buddies were an awesome recruiting ground. People who are smart but
work cr-p jobs because they lack the social skills or confidence to advance
make great employees for your small side businesses. And the great thing about
that is I'm helping my friend while I'm exploiting him or her. Most of the
people I've hired in this manner have gone on to get "real jobs" after gaining
experience working for me.

Of course, all this is predicated on your ability to live a different
lifestyle from your friends, and being willing to fire a friend. Never hire
anyone you can't fire. On the other hand, if you loose a friend every time you
fire someone, you are doing it wrong.

~~~
alnayyir
How incredibly self-obsessed and shallow.

I guess this is usual for the kind of material that comes from Sebastian.

There need be no mystery why the poor have such irrational loathing for the
middle and middle-upper class when you witness this kind of attitude.

Part of being better person and an exemplar is to improve without an attendant
increase in ego.

Humility and sincerity are critical virtues to have as a whole person.

~~~
akamaka
Your comment is an incredibly offensive and judgemental thing to say to
someone that you told don't know.

Just because he has different goals than his friends and is honest about the
fact that they are helping him achieve doesn't mean he is "self-obsessed and
shallow" and lacking in "humility and sincerity".

His friends who know him in person can and will judge him for the person he
is.

Did you write this because you have some kind of preconceptions based on
people you know?

~~~
alnayyir
His words are self-obsessed and shallow. I am expressing my thoughts in the
hope that those words don't fairly describe his character. Maybe I can make
him aware of his behavior before he starts buying into his own bullshit even
more.

>His friends who know him in person can and will judge him for the person he
is.

Or they'll stick around in the hopes of getting beer money for mowing his
lawn.

>Did you write this because you have some kind of preconceptions based on
people you know?

No.

------
matwood
I think overall his post was spot on. There is an old saying that goes along
the lines that 'you are the average of the 5 closest people to you.' This
means if all your closest friends are losers you'll likely be a loser too.
It's not mean or egotistical to recognize that people you spend the most time
with do in fact influence you.

It's also a good thing to remove friends that are holding you back. Sports
stars probably need to do more of this. They become famous, make a lot of
money, but keep hanging out with the friends from 'the hood' and end up all
sorts of trouble.

Another good example are people who lose a lot of weight. Whether on purpose
or not their friends often hold them back. Losing all her friends was the
hardest thing a friend of mine had to deal with when she finally decided to
lose weight and get in shape.

------
ryandvm
Gads, what obnoxious, egotistical drivel.

Is there any way we can get a Sebastian Marshall / Tim Ferris filter on Hacker
News?

------
VMG
I suddenly had the desire to smoke some weed and play tekken my buddies after
I read his post

~~~
michaelty
Same here.

------
BenSchaechter
I can really relate to this post a lot. While I have feelings of being sort of
a dick when I come to terms with this, it is completely true.

I don't really hang out with a lot of startup people (perhaps I need to). But
mostly it is because I _really_ need a break from the scene sometimes.
However, my only friends in the area are the same friends I had in high school
who aren't doing a whole lot with their lives. It is frustrating to say the
least.

Just tonight I got text messages from my friends telling me they drunkenly ran
in my ex-girlfriend and are all having a great time out at the bars.
Meanwhile, I'm sitting programming stuff into the night trying to make a
business that could ultimately fail. But I'm learning a lot. Sure, I'm living
in near-poverty. But I'm overall really enjoying myself -- even if it is quite
lonely.

In a way, it is motivating. On the other hand, it bums me out quite a bit.

~~~
alnayyir
This is a better attitude to take to the matter.

Just keep working, don't blog about how great you are on the blog whose main
purpose is to tell other people about how great you are.

What kind of stuff do you work on? (I'm a programmer as well)

~~~
zuckerborg
Dude, this is Sebastian Marshall, one of the great strategists of our time. He
specializes in winning and communicating the art of winning through his blog.

Now to the untrained eye, his posts may come across as the work of a
delusional, narcissistic windbag, but if you look deeper, you'll find that
with his hectic schedule it's amazing that he has time to write at all.
Between fighting off Asian gangsters with high-powered kung fu kicks and
hosting charity events for hospitals whose name he misremembers, he still
finds the energy to offer priceless career guidance and moral support to
patio11. Soak up his wisdom, so that you too may learn the entrepreneur
strategies of the winning scientist.

As an aside, I would love to read more about his science. I've learned so much
about strategy and entrepreneurship and winning from him, but not much yet
about science. Please write about your science, Scientist Sebastian, so that I
may seek to improve my own science, which has hitherto proven most unfruitful.

~~~
ryanwaggoner
Extremely disappointing to see so many upvotes on such a mean-spirited comment
by an anonymous user who has contributed to HN a fraction of what Sebastian
has, in terms of time and karma. I understand that some people might disagree
with what Sebastian has to say, but there are constructive ways to do so.
Sarcastic, anonymous, ad hominem attacks like these are probably fun to write,
but they hasten the downfall of a wonderful community. So thanks for that.

PS - I've gotten to know Sebastian over the last few months and he's proven to
be a genuinely good person who wants to learn how to be better and help others
do the same. It's sad to see people lashing out at him for that.

~~~
xiaoma
Sebastian's blog strikes me as _intensely_ arrogant, self-centered and
tasteless. Like others, I'm sure, I have my doubts about the truthfulness of
some passages from his blog such as the following:

 _"I got into a shouting match protecting some McDonald’s employees from a mob
boss in Hong Kong. A riot cop came to break it up, I was almost in a fight
with three mafia guys.

I had two guys try to mug me the other day in a dangerous area. Bad mistake,
doubled one of them over with a kick the stomach and shouted at the other one,
“YOU WANT TO DIE? BACK DOWN, STAY BACK.” He did, he let me walk away while his
criminal buddy was doubled over."_

Even if every word of the above were true, which I doubt, it wouldn't impress
me. It just makes me think the guy is stupid. The post bragging that he'll be
making 250k/month in 10 years was similarly in-your-face, yet uninspiring.
Ditto for the comparison of "high born" and "low born" people. Other posts
push credulity in similar ways and give me the sense he's a runaway
narcissist.

Honestly, I don't have a problem reading really odd stuff if there's enough
value to take from it. One example would be Steve Pavlina's blog. I have
little to no interest in new age philosophy and some of his posts come across
as downright nutty. But they're thought provoking, though. Many of the earlier
posts on online business and a wider set of personal development topics were
solid gold. I rarely feel like it's wasted time to read that blog, even when I
disagree with it.

Unfortunately, I can't say the same about Sebastian's blog or so-called "get
victory" newsletter. Thus far, I haven't found a single article that's
genuinely helped me (a high bar, I know). There isn't nearly enough substance
to offset the obnoxious tone. Until he actually _is_ a VC with all kinds of
internet properties, making 250k/month, a lot of people just won't be
interested in reading about his opinions, goals or tall tales.

As I said, I don't know the guy. He could very well be a great guy to hang
around with, especially with his interest in self-improvement. Maybe if I did
know him offline as you do, I'd have a greater appreciation for his blog. This
comment isn't meant as a personal attack. It's a rationale for why I agree
with zuckerborg's comment and why HN would be a better place without a
constant stream of victory spam.

~~~
lionhearted
I can understand why you'd be skeptical - most people are unwilling to put
themselves in harm's way to break up a fight, protect people around them, or
explore the slums of a city to understand more about the development of
humanity.

I do do those things. I don't know exactly what to tell you if you want to
doubt that - there was a guy yelling and spitting on the floor of the Tsim Sha
Tsui McDonald's in the late night/early morning, yelling at the staff. He was
with two of his buddies. I told him to knock it off. Shouting match ensued.

I've had three attempts to mug me in my life - once in Shanghai, once in
London, and once in Saigon.

You can dislike me - that's your call - but I dunno man, I don't say things
that are untrue.

> Thus far, I haven't found a single article that's genuinely helped me

That's too bad. You've obviously been around my site a fair bit, and I do try
to make it of value to a visitor. I cover lots of stuff that a lot of people
have found useful - what are you trying to do exactly? What have you tried
that I've written/advocated on that didn't work for you?

~~~
alnayyir
>What have you tried that I've written/advocated on that didn't work for you?

You're missing the point. You're handing out advice with no demonstrable
expertise on...anything.

You don't discuss anything that requires talent, intellect, experience, or
domain knowledge. You write about things you pull out of your head or other
content you Tom Sawyered other people into collating for you.

Speaking of "content", that neuroplasticity and habits post is a travesty.

Your whole blog is so thoroughly preoccupied with your person that I can only
think you are suffocating on the fumes of your own alternate reality.

In brief you are:

1\. Without demonstrated accomplishment

2\. Arrogant

3\. The only thing you're superlative in is narcissism

4\. Giving out advice to deluded hopefuls who want to have a site about
nothing and to be paid for zero productivity and not work a day more of their
lives than they have to.

People with work to do, work they love, they don't need people like you.

Bonus time! Since people don't seem to get it yet, I've taken the liberty of
making an annotated version of the front page of his 'blog'.

<http://i.imgur.com/ET2hf.png>

With that, I'm done chasing this matter. I am exhausted with battling this
banality.

Exeunt.

~~~
bobz
In brief, and only because vicious attacks on writers I enjoy just rubs me
wrong:

1\. It is not Sebastian's duty to demonstrate his accomplishments to you.

2\. Arrogant? If you hate yourself so much that you can't stand a person with
ambition and grand intentions, that's your problem. I'll take Sebastian's
"arrogance" over your condescending "objective criticism" any day.

3\. On what basis can you say this?

4\. I spend my entire LIFE working to build things to help fix the problems in
the world. I enjoy reading Sebastian because he writes about doing the same.
And from what I can tell, he is one of the hardest working and honestly self-
critical writers on the internet.

> People with work to do, work they love, they don't need people like you.

Sebastian hasn't asked anything of you. He's a valued contributor around here
for a great number of reasons, and has found a writing style that resonates
with many around here. If it doesn't resonate with you, that's fine. We're all
in a different place. But there's no cause or excuse for this type of attack.
As Sebastian points out below, 17 posts? That _is_ a bit scary. Remember,
beneath the posts and karma there's real human beings around here, some of the
smartest on the internet, and they all deserve a measure respect, regardless
of your thoughts on the value they provide the world for free. What exactly
are you trying to prove, and to whom?

