
Ask HN: Should I be a plumber? - hippich
This bothered me for awhile. I consider myself pretty good software architect, with significant abstract thinking abilities. In the same time I am handy enough to fix my cars&#x2F;bike, make new copper&#x2F;pvc&#x2F;whatever piping at home, I can easily mount dry board and figure out how to make a nice texture on the wall. I can replace a bathtub, install gas water heater, read codes to find what are local requirements are, etc.<p>In my opinion all this stuff I do with hands is way easier than trying to come up with good thought through software&#x2F;hardware&#x2F;network system. I understand, that I am sorta &quot;IT plumber&quot; too, but I feel like my skills set is out of reach of most plumbers&#x2F;handymen out there.<p>Or put it simply - I can do basic plumbing and I can code, plumbers out there can do plumbing, but have hard time with craigslist.<p>So... My concern is that when I am asking $100-$125 &#x2F; hr only very few clients are OK with that (they usually either pass this cost on their client or get way more value out of my work.) On top of this I constantly get &quot;Impostor Syndrome&quot;. On the other hand plumber, who need just a bit of common sense and practice (and honesty to get nice feedbacks) charges $100+ an hour without even thinking twice, and everyone pays...<p>I constantly see in Craigslist&#x27;s Service section maid service for $25+&#x2F;hr (if they provide their supplies - it is extra), Handyman charging $50+&#x2F;hr for simple things like fixing drywall hole. Plumber&#x27;s help - from $75&#x2F;hr (it is good deal)<p>Why is that? Why becoming a plumber actually can be more profitable than trying to solve way harder problems? Either all IT professionals are heavily underpaid, or their work simply brings less value somehow?<p>Sorry for this rant, but this bothers me for quite a while. Were I grew up plumbing for for people who did not have enough will to pursue college degree. And here in US they somehow charge often more than I can do.
======
jacquesm
Plumbing makes good money mostly because people don't want to deal with the
sewage side of things and because it tends to ruin your body. Clean work
(water lines and such) is easy enough and easy to check, especially with the
new generation of water lines. Gas lines come with a lot more responsibilities
(and in many places certification requirements), sewage is just simply dirty
work. It's also very hard work, crawlspaces are not named aptly, you can't
really crawl there. And after a day in a crawlsuit you'll just love sitting
behind your desk. There is no such thing as easier money than IT money. Figure
a decade or so as a plumber will teach you more about appreciating the ability
to do IT work than anything else will ever do. Maybe a few months of doing it
every day will suffice.

Also, get professional liability insurance and don't touch any gas lines until
you (a) know what you're doing and (b) have the required papers (if that's
applicable where you live).

That's not stuff to mess around with if you are not 100% sure how to do it
right. (you'll need pressure test gear and such to do this properly)

~~~
jeffreyrogers
I can definitely agree with your point about no such thing as easier money
than IT money.

Prior to working in programming (still in college, but I've done a few
internships) I worked restaurant jobs--prep cook, dishwasher, busboy, etc. I'd
come home from those jobs and not want to do anything for the rest of the day.
It was completely mentally and physically exhausting.

Now I'm working for a software company and get to sit in a chair 8 hours a day
and take breaks whenever I feel like it. When I worked at restaurants my
managers would be all over me if I wasn't moving around and doing something.

Working in software I'm basically paid to do what I would have done in my free
time. I find that pretty remarkable.

~~~
hippich
This means it is what you are good at. If it would be that easy for anyone,
everyone would try to be in software development and salaries would plummet.
Instead I have many friends whom I tried to direct into software development
direction, but after few evenings they would throw it all away saying it is
impossible for them to get it.

------
poulsbohemian
My brother-in-law is a plumber, and he's on his way to doing as well as any of
us rank-and-file tech guys. The hard part is he's had to go through indentured
servitude (ahem "an apprenticeship") of several years, the risks of getting
injured, and the risks of being furloughed / laid off the moment there is a
downturn in work. As I've learned through him, there are actually a lot of
different sub-fields in plumbing too - everything from maintenance and
installation on industrial dishwashers to major construction projects.

He's barely 30 but already his body is wearing down from carrying hundreds of
pounds of pipe up flights of stairs. He's been laid off twice - and guys that
have been in the field longer have told him that he's had it good. I have used
the residential side of the company he works for - and they charge the
equivalent of $250 / hour.

So, like all professions it has its pros and cons. As a freelance developer
though, I'd agree with your synopsis - once you get outside a few tech
geographies and particular companies, the pay scale for tech work drops off
quickly, as does the excitement of the work. So then money is less the
determining factor than the work itself and/or the lifestyle. Do you like
sitting in an office or do you want to be on the road going to job sites and
people's homes? Do you want to use your body as a machine or your mind? What
level of risk of layoff and career competition do you want? There's no passive
income in plumbing unless you build a company and sit on top.

------
owenmarshall
See this, boys and girls? _This_ is why people think IT folks are arrogant.

> In my opinion all this stuff I do with hands is way easier than trying to
> come up with good thought through software/hardware/network system.

> Why is that? Why becoming a plumber actually can be more profitable than
> trying to solve way harder problems?

Your entire premise of this post seems to be "I can glue two PVC pipes
together, therefore I can do what a plumber does!"

So let's consider replacing a water heater, which you mention you can do.

Did you get a permit to put it in? What did you do with the old heater? How
much money did you spend on the tools to put it in? Are you _super duper sure_
that you installed it properly and to code? And when you go to sell your house
can you prove it, or are you just gonna hope the buyer's home inspector
doesn't ask too many questions?

And here's the big one: when you add up all money you spent getting the
permits, the fees associated with taking the old one to the dump, the
materials, etc. - be sure to also figure out how many hours you spent,
multiply by your hourly rate, and subtract.

Gluing two pipes together doesn't make you a plumber. Putting a band-aid on
your finger doesn't make you a doctor. Banging up a website in Frontpage
doesn't make you a programmer.

~~~
vonmoltke
> And here's the big one: when you add up all money you spent getting the
> permits, the fees associated with taking the old one to the dump, the
> materials, etc. - be sure to also figure out how many hours you spent,
> multiply by your hourly rate, and subtract.

I am not aware of any trades that do not charge for permits, materials, and
disposal fees on top of their hourly rate. The one time I actually called a
plumber, the $150/hr was straight labor.

That said, I agree with the gist of your comment. People often underestimate
how difficult it is to do things after only working with the simple cases or
because they don't understand what is involved in doing something properly.

~~~
hippich
Why when I ask someone to help with simple case they still charge me like they
are working on high pressure gas pipe?

~~~
vonmoltke
Professionals and trades generally charge a consistent labor rate, regardless
of the specific tasks. Adjusting the rate based on the specific tasks would be
very complicated, impractical, and possibly open these people up to legal
challenges about what work should be billed at.

~~~
owenmarshall
Yeah, this is really confusing to me. When I freelance I charge a fixed hourly
rate no matter if I'm doing a 30 second site that's all Django scaffolding or
something much more difficult.

I also charge by the hour - so I'd take 1000 of those 30 second Django sites
any day of the week :-) Heck, some good freelancers have a minimum engagement
period in the days.

For a tradesperson this is even more imperative: it's far easier for me to
switch from one project to another; our plumber has to load their tools and
drive to the next job site. This means the plumber is always going to charge a
fixed rate or risk losing money because they took the "$35 unclog the sink"
job over the "$220 'the poop is everywhere'" job.

~~~
hippich
When I do work - I explain to my client that there is no need for my service
"to install something" and refer them to less experienced devs who does major
work and client invites me to fix something specific, or architect things or
something like that. End result - less time billed and more cost effective
work.

In the same time other developer can learn stuff and gradually progresses to
more advanced level.

Contrast this to any handyman or plumber - they always seems to charge $50+/hr
and $75+/hr no matter how simple task is at hands. And I bet if I had to deal
with serious stuff, this rate would only go up. I.e. what they do is
comparable to installing wordpress for $10/hr work. This is my problem.

------
logicalmind
I'm not gonna write my life story on hn, but I have the exact opposite
experience as you. I grew up in a blue collar family. No real white collar
mentors or apparent options in that world. So I followed my dad into the
trades. I spent my summers in high school as a plumber (apprentice) and became
a full-time plumber after high school, eschewing college even though I was
accepted to a number of good schools.

After a number of post-high school years of being a plumber it quickly became
obvious what type of life this would lead to for me. In particular, the
physical toll. You are often carrying heavy equipment or supplies up or down
stairs or ladders. You spend your entire day working with sharp edges, saws,
and electricity. Accidents occur all the time and any of them can be
debilitating.

You also have to consider the risk of the impairment of others and what damage
it may cause you. Let's say a co-worker in IT gets drunk at lunch and comes
back to work. He may accidentally drop a table or even a database. That sucks
for sure, but in the grand scheme of things, your life and ability to continue
working aren't impacted. But consider being on a job site with others and the
electrician gets drunk at lunch. He could accidently miswire something that
could end up with a severe injury to you or someone else. The risks from the
mistakes of others upon yourself is much larger in the trades.

There are lot of things that seem similar. New development is akin to new
construction. Both have maintenance and service. But IT is essentially a
virtual environment. The data is important to many people and can even have
lives depending on it. But in the trades, it is a completely physical
environment. There is no undo. There is no restore from backup. Mistakes can
and do result in physical injury and death. It is the difference between
coming home at the end of the day sulking that you had to do some user support
and coming home minus a few fingers because you or someone else sneezed at the
wrong time.

My dad is retired now, not by choice. He was on a rooftop holding an air
conditioner panel. A gust of wind kicked up and he had the choice of either
letting the panel blow off the top of the building onto others below or hold
onto it. He held onto it. In the process, destroying his back. He was never
the same. That doesn't happen in IT.

------
abruzzi
Plumbers on craigslist are, for the most part, doing lots of little 1-2 hour
jobs. That means that there is likely lots of potential empty space in their
calendar. They're probably lucky if they pull 20 jobs a week, so the rate has
to go up to make a living.

IT work like you're talking about is probably going to be minimum of two weeks
at 40-50 hours a week, so you probably have to pull 2-3 jobs a month. So the
rate you have to charge to make a living, and the expectations of people
hiring goes down as well.

Its the same effect as why I am paid $35/hr for an IT job (plus benefits, so
lets say $45/hr) for a regular job, but wen we bring people in for contract
work, we never pay less than $125/hr.

~~~
nilsimsa
The higher rated plumbers and electricians (on Yelp) see to be quite busy.
This one particular electrician said he had a 3 week lead time before he could
work on our project. I think if you are good and treat your customers well,
you will have unlimited business as a plumber or electrician.

~~~
nicksergeant
Yup. Friend of mine started his own plumbing business after working in the
industry for decades. He's made more money with just himself and a few
employees than he can probably shake a stick at.

------
joshcrews
Thought 1: I love hearing that good plumbers are getting paid well. There is
such a need for reliable, professional just-solve-my-problem-with-service
tradesmen in America. In a just economy, the makers and doers (like plumbers)
are well paid and BS jobs ([http://strikemag.org/bullshit-
jobs/](http://strikemag.org/bullshit-jobs/)) are hard to find.

Thought 2: You should start taking plumbing jobs, and after 6 months do a big
writeup / post that tells the story ("How I raised my rates by leaving
software development for plumbing"). I think a lot of people love to read
about it. And possibly it could lead to more lucrative software work if that's
what you are really looking for.

------
spotj
I worked as an assistant plumber one summer during college. I needed a job and
my friend knew a guy.

It sucked. It was unexpectedly back-breaking work. (Granted this was for
mostly new construction and not just fixing problems.) It was hot, and often
smelled like urine since roofers would piss in the sump hole of unfinished
units. The guy I worked for seemed to hate life and looked like a catcher's
mitt from being out in the sun so much.

Though I enjoyed the physical challenge, that summer I really learned the
value of getting an education. That said, if you hate IT, I'd suggest trying a
few different things before jumping headlong into a craft you're not entirely
sure about.

------
GilbertErik
What would happen if this question was inverted?

"""

I consider myself a pretty good plumber, with concrete manipulation abilities.
In the same time, I'm handy enough to setup my own website in HTML, style it
in CSS, and even animate stuff on my static site using jQuery.

...

In my opinion, all this javascript and css stuff is way easier than septic
systems or repairing frozen/busted pipes in a turn of the century home.

...

I constantly see craigslist postings for web developers and entry QA positions
at $20/hr...

"""

I'm not trying to be excessively snarky, I'm just trying to point out that our
society is at the point where different services have reached different
natural values. They're typically based on your standard economic factors like
how saturated a market is with available employees, how much experience
employees bring to the table, and how much they have determined to charge
based on competition.

Alternatively, you can just go with Betteridge's law of headlines. :-)

~~~
hippich
This definitely can be inverted for me or you (if you are good with manual
work, not sure if this applies to all engineers)

But ask you handyman joe or plumber you meet when fixing toilet how to make
dropdown with jquery and see where it go. My point is that most software
engineers can fix leaking pipe (some might decide not to deal with it, but
still can do it,) while plumber/handyman CAN NOT deal with typical IT problem
even after spending couple evening with youtube. God, I had trouble explaining
to guys laying laminate floor about how they can save money by opening
checking account and depositing check there instead of going to one of these
"check cashing" stores.

------
logn
Part of the problem with billing as a software engineer is that our work is
easily offshored. You can't hire an offshore plumber for $5/hr and if you
could, I'm sure plumbers would get a lot more people upset at them charging
$100/hr.

Also, I don't think it's fair to plumbers, mechanics, electricians, etc. to
say their jobs are a lot easier than programmers. It all depends on the
project. Setting up a Wordpress site is probably comparable to installing a
new exhaust. And the industrial electrician rewiring a factory is probably
comparable to the software engineer setting up a new SaaS site.

~~~
hippich
Installing wordpress is comparable to installing exhaust to you (although I
don't think you can charge even maid's rate for that.) but ask car mechanic to
install wordpress and tell me what you hear in return.

~~~
logn
I think that's over simplifying it. People specialize. Ask me to make a bagel
from scratch and I doubt I could. But those cooks probably get minimum wage.

This is all about competition from offshore work which drives programming
rates down and makes customers unwilling to pay very much. The abundance of
offshore Wordpress shops is why it's not very well paying work.

------
natch
First, I don't know if this is really HN material, but that being said,
plumbers get paid what they do because they deal with ridiculously nasty
stuff, and they have to be on call 24/7 (or go out of business). They also
need decent people skills. And insurance ($$$).

And they need to get really dirty sometimes, and the people who live with them
have to be OK with that (a shower will only get you so far; there are mental
barriers to having sex with someone who just had their arm elbow deep in a
nice blend of rancid oil, mold, and shit).

If all that is OK with you, go for it.

~~~
hippich
I am talking about laying down new PVC pipes stuff. And no - I have to wait
for plumber to come over to give me an estimate. I am not talking about ones
who are on 24/7 calls and dealing with nasty stuff.

~~~
jacquesm
Being picky is not going to get you very far.

Someone lists themselves as a plumber, they'll be called for whatever plumbing
job is available. If you do the dirty jobs they'll hire you for the nice jobs
too. If you refuse the dirty jobs then those plumbers that _do_ do the dirty
jobs will will end up running off with your potential customers. Especially in
the early years you won't be having too much work that you can afford to send
away the jobs (and thus the customers) that you don't want.

You want to build up a reputation that says you are a good plumber, not a
picky plumber that doesn't want to get his hands dirty. (In fact, that's one
of the reasons plumbers can charge what they do.)

edit: this comment is a nice example of what I mean:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8120404](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8120404)

~~~
hippich
The reason why poster from this comment you referred called same plumber -
because they did dirty work for free. If they would charge $250/hr - $350/hr -
it could turn differently (could, not necessary would)

~~~
jacquesm
They got the job because they came, showed they had what it takes to get the
job done and then took their lumps because they said their estimate was free
(so they stood by their word). That's the start of a fruitful business
relationship which you can see for yourself worked out well for them.

If they would have charged for their estimate then the job would have probably
gone to another plumber. Free estimates are fairly standard for plumbers and
will reduce your profit margin, but it is a long term investment in the
relationship.

------
pistle
I dunno. A plumber's overhead includes, tools, supplies, and what can be
harder labor than the non-trivial work you've accomplished.

Until you are crawling in nasty crawl spaces replacing 4 inch drain lines or
doing the more challenging work of replumbing in 100 year old walls with
demanding clients warning you to not ruin their plaster and hexie tiles... I
wouldn't discount the challenge, risks, and physical difficulty that plumbers
face. They have a standard rate which is higher margin for putting a new wax
seal in your toilet bowl. but digging long trenches to fix busted main drain
lines to the street is far worse than grabbing a coffee on the way to the
Herman Miller Aeron.

Depending on where you are, there's also the apprenticeship/licensing process
and dealing with the range of niche plumbing areas. There are plenty of basic
plumbers, so high competition (you don't just get 40hr/wk starting up). If you
get into commercial, then you deal with fairly complex issues and entrenched
rackets for middle management to ensure that they get paid more than you.

Do you want to be hands on the pipes or a supervisor? Hands on pipes? You
better be tough, never get sick, and ready to deal with a lot of shit -
literally. You better work.

------
momchenr
I am a recovering software developer that had a terribly failed startup. We
raised venture capital, had angel investors, and just totally blew it. I'm 29
at this point, was 27 then. I had to let go of a team of developers, maybe 3
of them, they had family, it was heartbreaking. I still talk to most of them.
I went through a really dark period.

Few months later, we still hadn't raised any money to keep things going and I
find out my wife and I are expecting. I basically say, 'Fuck it', I need a
real job. So I apply anywhere that would even possibly want me, and I end up
interviewing at a Mechanical Contractor as a Project Assistant. Just pushing
paper for Plumbing and HVAC jobs.

Two years later, I'm running my own jobs, and working directly with union
pipefitters and sheetmetal guys. Here's my advice.

Join the union in their apprentice program. You'll be paid well to start with
- you definitely, definitely won't starve. You might not be making $150 per
hour, but you might make $30 per hour all week long, plus the opportunity for
overtime. It'll take a few years, but you'll end up becoming a Journeyman, and
that means more like $40-$50 per hour, all week long, with overtime potential,
incredible benefits, and more. Working for an established mechanical
contractor will help you get more steady paychecks and if you're good, you'll
end up becoming a foreman running larger jobs. The foreman that managed the
last project I was on - it was a $2M job - made $65 per hour, plus
opportunities for overtime and doubletime.

It's dirty work. You'll be so tired you won't have time for coding like you
used to.

------
pistle
I consider myself a pretty good plumber with significant problem solving
abilities. In the same time, I am able to learn how to use a computer and put
together a WordPress site for my small business. I even learned enough CSS and
HTML to embed some videos I did.

In my opinion, this computer stuff is way easier than dealing with customers
in emergency situations, lugging heavy stuff everywhere, and dealing with the
daily...

You see where I'm going.

If anything. Partner with an awesome plumber and do part-time plumbing work
while helping create software that helps the plumber build a happy customer
base and get out of being the labor plumber before her body is destroyed from
all that hard work.

Think, online payment processing, estimate delivery/website, mobile app to
take pictures of plumbing situations that can be married to estimates or
remediation documentation, lead management, accept images from customers of
their issues, etc.

Eventually, you will have built out a suite of tools and will be able to sell
that to plumbers and/or customers. Add in reviews, etc. and you've got Angie's
List on the run.

------
ironchef
Plumbing can be hard work. Being on your back / knees for hours at a time day
after will end up getting to you. Also, it sounds like your doing some of the
more reasonably easy plumbing. Things are a bit more complex when you have to
do things like figure out how to maximize water pressure after N different
horrendous bend angles, etc. If you think of it in terms of software
engineering, the plumbing you've probably done is probably through
intermediate software work. You've set up some CRUD apps at this point (in the
plumbing world). There's a reason plumbing is a trade and a craft...it can get
very complex and the time they're charging to fix a trivial flush valve on a
toilet could just as easily be spent on a commercial plumbing gig with some
corporate client who is paying the plumber to set up every toilet in a small
hotel (for example).

~~~
keithg
In addition to being physically hard work, you need to get out and go to the
job site. That incurs overhead in the form of fewer billable hours per day. So
if you're 30 minutes to/from a 1 hour job, your rate is effectively cut by
1/3.

I'll add that it's pretty comfy sitting on a soft chair in an air conditioned
or heated office to work.

~~~
XorNot
I ran straight into this when I was doing chemistry lab demonstrating last
year. The job pays pretty well for what's asked of you...but since I wasn't
actually at uni at the time, it meant I had about 1.5 hours of commute for a 2
hour lab period where I got paid. Which made the rate far more ordinary.

Still doing the same thing this coming semester, but since I'll be an
undergrad and it'll run straight to classes, the value proposition is much
better.

------
gregpilling
Yes you should.

Go do it for 6 months full time. Advertise, take jobs, bid, be a
subcontractor, hire subcontractors, go to all the plumbing wholesalers and
build relationships. Get involved in the world of the professional plumbing
company.

You will then see many ways to use IT skills to improve the life of people in
the plumbing trade. Write some code, solve some problems, charge $20 per month
per person (some sort of SaaS for plumbing companies) and live happily ever
after.

Hopefully we can read about you here on HN in a couple years, after you have
made headlines for being the Uber of the plumbing trade. It is a way to cross-
pollinate your skills and make something that few others could.

You will end up with an unfair advantage [http://blog.asmartbear.com/unfair-
advantages.html](http://blog.asmartbear.com/unfair-advantages.html)

------
bindirector
I struggle myself with why I think I _have_ to be a programmer. More and more
I feel like "what am I trying to prove?" when I suffer from the same nagging
imposter syndrome and self doubt. If you don't like it as much, don't do it.
Go for what makes you happy, relaxed, and fulfilled. Not what you think you
should be doing. I'm sure you'll end up with something that takes advantage of
your existing skills with software and your aspirations to work more with your
hands.

~~~
hippich
I am still in my life phase where I enjoy creating software. But I enjoy
creating something in general, so I might follow you advice later in my life.

------
longlurker9909
im a plumber, not working right now due to a fami.ly illness but, i usually
end my day by cleaning all the shit i had to roll around in all day,
litterally feces, human excrement . im nothing but a turd herder . when i look
at it that way with you in your nice clean office and my work is either on the
roof of your building or its underneath or outside in areas you probably would
not want to spend 8-10 hrs a day, i think i want to charge even more(i should
have been an office worker)

~~~
hippich
can you pick what you do? If no - why?

~~~
jacquesm
No. Because he wants to feed his family.

(I don't pretend to speak for the OP but you have a very naive view of what it
is like to be a tradesman that wants to stay in business for more than 3
months. Hint: you take the work you can get at hopefully a price where you
make enough money that if there is a lull in business you can still survive.
Then there's taxes, tools, breakage, late payers, non-payers and so on, it's
not exactly a joyride compared to being a desk-jockey.)

~~~
hippich
computer software freelance have all the same issues (i would argue even more
with unpaying clients since there is less physical contact involved often)

And you answer is counterintuitive - if they have to take all jobs - then
there should be pressure from market to drive prices down. In practice I had
to go through many guys/companies to get someone same day in my house to
estimate work, and two weeks from estimate when they actually would start and
they still charge tons of money in my opinion.

~~~
jacquesm
Freelance software is a ton easier than freelance plumbing. But don't take my
word for it, and please prove I'm wrong.

The market is not 100% efficient, not for freelance plumbers and not for
software people. One thing I do know: if I call a plumber and he turns me down
for job 'a' I won't be calling him ever for job 'b' (which he might have
gladly accepted). You build relationships with people that get the job done,
not with people that are afraid to get their hands (literally) dirty.

~~~
hippich
What is there would be a place where all skilled professional would post
offers to do work and describe what kind of work they do. One type of work per
account/post or something. And feedbacks and rate for this type of work. So if
you had broken off outside AC discharge pipe, you could hire Joe with 5 stars
for doing exact this level of work for $25/hr, but once you got problem with
busted sewer pipe somewhere under your house you could only find Dan with team
of 5 people who deal with only that kind of serious problems for $300/hr for
whole team.

In such artificial scenario, would you hire both in different situations or
you still would go with more expensive Dan and his team? If you answer would
be former, then it is inefficient market.

~~~
jacquesm
Not that simple. Customer relations are not price only affairs. If you already
hired Dan for the sewer job you'll hire him again for the broken off outside
AC discharge pipe because _you have a relationship_ with Dan. And Joe will now
have to 'bust' that relationship in order to even get a chance. So until Dan
is unavailable (says 'no' to some job you want him to do), ill, dead on a
holiday or otherwise indisposed it is very likely that the 'plumber' entry on
the phone of the customer will contain Dan's number. And that will be the
first person to call in case of trouble.

This is known as mind-share for bigger brands and for smaller relationships
like these it is best described using the dutch word 'gunnen' for which I
still haven't found a good English translation.

------
poolunion
Plumbers make good money because: 1) Demand a. A lot of people have plumbing
problems. b. There is shortage in skilled plumbers (especially those willing
to do small jobs). 2) Perceived Value a.Working plumbing is a necessity for
most people. 3)Fear a. If people toilet is leaking they are worried about
damage it may cause. (Fear is one of the reasons rates for security focused IT
people generally make better money) b. Most people are scared to do their own
plumbing.

A couple years ago my job was outsourced. I took my severance and registered
in a Carpentry course. Part of the course was building a house for Habitat for
Humanity. It was a great experience and gave me skills I never had before. I
can now do all of my own renovations.

I also worked in trades for a while. Trades can make you good money but not
right away. When you start in trades you are a glorified janitor and treated
like one. It’s very labor intensive work. In Canada it takes about 4 years of
experience to get your ticket.

One of the best things I gained from my experience was the appreciation of
hard work. The saying “If there is time to lean then there is time to clean”
is the rule in trades. You basically have to make yourself busy at all times
or you won’t have a job.

------
gabriel34
Fixed, high demand combined with a low offer explain the high price.

Contributing to reduce the offer of work capacity is that handyman, plumber,
gardener and related careers still rely on experience and apprenticeship to
qualify people (as opposed to easy access to formal and informal information
sources in IT) - how does a subredit for plumbing compares with stackexchange,
moocs and all sort of tech manuals availabe?

On the other side, IT gets other forms of compensation, such as a greater
sense of "doing something with your life", and that is one reason it can pay
less than plumbers. N.B. I'm not saying one can't feel accomplished with a
plumbing career, but it is far less common to find one such person than it is
to find someone who finds a IT career fulfilling.

You could also say the IT market is just better/more efficient and that there
is way more liquidity on IT work than plumber work. If you have a stock and
someone is attempting a aggressive takeover (that is, one agent in the market
intensely needs what you have), you can ask more than market price and still
sell. In plumbing, the client often faces similar situations. Other factor is
that there almost always is a time pressure and the client does not have
perfect information, calling every plumber in town to gauge prices has a cost
in time.

Concluding, I still wouldn't go for plumbing. I (personally) wouldn't be
fulfilled with such a career. More relevant is the fact that $125 is probably
the most you will ever be able to charge (correcting only for inflation, some
fluctuation on demand or offer) while on IT, the cap is likely higher (I don't
know the market you are inserted in, but plumbing is more commodity than IT)

------
k_sze
You have to factor in how much time you actually work in a day.

Unless you work in a big construction project such that you arrive 9:00 in the
morning and leave at 18:00, you will probably need to spend a significant
amount of time travelling from one client's house to another. And you cannot
charge your clients for that time.

And then there is the question of whether you will even be fully booked all
the time.

~~~
hippich
I never was booked full time when i was doing freelancing. And to get to the
project I had to do my research and no one was paying for my research time.

------
k2enemy
How much you get paid for a job isn't solely determined by how difficult it
is. It is determined by supply and demand (and difficulty is one of the
ingredients in supply). My impression is that unions and licensing also
severely limit the supply of plumbers in any one location, making it a high
paying job.

------
harrisreynolds
I understand where you are coming from. But keep in mind that there are many
factors to consider. Getting a van and buying supplies. Driving time. Having
consistent business to bill 40 hours per week etc.

I would be very surprised if your overall net income or free-time was higher
being a plumber.

~~~
gcp
_I would be very surprised if your overall net income or free-time was higher
being a plumber._

Plumbers run a business. If they run the business well, they can be quite
financially successful. Do not expect any free-time running the business, but
you might be able to retire early.

My stepfather was a plumber, and he's earned (significantly) more over his
career than I'm pretty sure I will. But he had to run a successful business to
get there. Maybe it's on-topic for HN after all.

~~~
DanBC
Be interesting to hear from plumbers about the risks that come with expanding
the business. It starts with your good name getting around and more people
hearing about you. Do you stay at that level, or do you take on staff to do
the more boring jobs or to help cover the busier times or to give you an
easier week. But with that kind of set up reputation is so important.

~~~
gcp
Without going into too much detail, his business was severely hampered in
development for several years because they couldn't find good (extra)
personnel. i.e. kids that graduated only wanted to work for bigger firms, had
wage demands he didn't consider sustainable, or simply didn't seem good
enough.

During that period they tended to focus on bringing in as much big projects as
they could by being friendly with architects and project developers. It's
easier to do more with a tiny team if you can batch work on a single site.
Getting a good reputation in terms of quality and delivery was obviously very
important there - you do not want to race to the bottom on prices.

Around 2008, shortly after the financial crisis, many business got into
problems, often also because customers were insolvent. Suddenly it became
easier to hire more people, and he did expand the number of workers, and
consequently the business, at that point, but never more than what they could
reasonably check up on himself. (I reminds me a bit of the story where just
after the .com crash, Amazon suddenly announced that for the first time in
their history they'd made a profit)

It was basically a slow, very careful growth, taking opportunities when they
presented themselves. Customer satisfaction was very important. If you leave
people in the cold, literally, they will remember and tell others. This means
leaving the house to fix stuff at 10pm Sunday evening in the middle of the
winter.

------
jonaldomo
I was talking to my dad about how I repaired a few of my toilets and that I
find it hard to believe plumbers charge that much. He then enlightened me to
the fact that most calls plumbers get are of the 'messy' kind... Something to
think about.

------
driverdan
It sounds like you're talking to the wrong "potential" clients. You don't
"ask" for your hourly rate, you tell them. I've found the best way to get new
clients is through networking and referrals. It requires the ability to sell
yourself but if you lack that skill it's something you can learn.

I recommend Brennan Dunn's book Double Your Freelance Rate. It's not as much
about your development skills (but you should have those down too) as your
ability to manage the project, meet expectations, and relate to the client.

With dev vs plumber, do whichever you most enjoy.

~~~
mcdougle
I looked the book up, just out of curiosity, and I can't seem to find it
anywhere. It's not available on any bookstore's site (Amazon, Half.com, Barnes
& Noble). Even on the author's website (doubleyourfreelancing.com -- named
after the book!) the book itself is not specifically for sale. Sure, I can
enroll in a $200 course, and the book is provided with it, but I can't buy the
book by itself.

That's fine, for me at least. I'm not currently looking to freelance (I was at
one time, which is why I'm interested, but I'm pursuing another venture right
now). But I don't think OP is going to be able to read it unless he wants to
take the author's course!

~~~
caw
There's 3 bundle options. The minimum package including the book is $69.
[http://doubleyourfreelancing.com/rate/](http://doubleyourfreelancing.com/rate/)

------
joeclark77
A bit off topic, but there's a quotation I find so compelling that I post it
in my office and on the front of my website:

"The society which scorns excellence in plumbing as a humble activity and
tolerates shoddiness in philosophy as an exalted activity will have neither
good plumbing nor good philosophy; neither its pipes nor its theories will
hold water." J. Gardner

I'm in a field (academia) where it is very easy to allow yourself to get away
with doing shoddy work as a result of pridefulness.

------
macguyver
@OP, it seems that @logicalmind has the exact opposite problem as you. You
know, I could start a startup that is like "TradingPlaces", where you get to
swap professions by getting first hand training from a master at his craft,
maybe gaining access to each other's network and clients over time.

Except, to start a company I would need to be very business oriented, and I'm
not (I'm product/sales/service oriented), and I'd need a business co-founder.

Thoughts?

------
heyalexej
So you have plumbing and software engineering skills. You know how plumbers
are struggling with the internet-y side of things? Are you aware of the fact
that _plumber + {city}_ is worth $40-60 a click through Google AdWords? Are
you aware of the fact that the vast majority of landing pages are none... as
in suck badly and don't convert? See the gap you could fill with a solution?
Reply and I'll get in touch with you for some ideas.

~~~
LusoTycoon
Interested as well! mzigx2ue4xej813@jetable.org

I'll use my personal email for further communications ;)

------
socrates1998
Why not do both?

You can do contract IT work for 15-20 hours a week and then try to fill the
gaps with freelance plumbing.

It will take a while to set-up: liability insurance, increasing your skill
set, ect.

But, I have always believed in doing multiple, sometimes unrelated projects
just so your mind doesn't go crazy.

Who knows, some day you might build a "smart toilet" and make a shit ton of
money.

------
desireco42
I am not good with my hands, but I am aware of the discrepancy.

I do blame fools who often spend time pontificating here as a depressing
factor of my rates. Which btw are close to $100 and I am fully engaged
(40+hrs) yet I believe I should be able to get more and do more fun stuff.

And yes, I do believe we are heavily underpaid, just look at lawyers for
example

------
skrebbel
Plumbers don't typically have multi-month gigs. Their overhead is way larger,
which is reflected in their rate.

------
crunchcaptain
Most people can tell the difference between a leaky pipe and one that is
properly plumbed. However, most people cannot tell the difference between
well-designed software and shit.

Also, they can take their time choosing a software architect. But if they take
their time choosing a plumber, their house fills with shit.

------
keehun
Answering this properly would require a nice mix of philosophy, economics, and
a discussion of value. Not sure if I can even come up with a tldr (after I
thought about it for a bit)

------
eitally
Having just read the story about the dentist who got into the dental software
business ... who not turn plumber then write plumbing company management
software? :)

------
UweSchmidt
Go for it. Be a plumber for a while but leave some time to keep your software
skills sharp / take the "few clients" that pay >$100.

Report back in a few months!

------
hippich
EDIT: here I am not discussing extreme cases, I am talking about day-to-day
help without call at 3am and digging into sewer full body.

~~~
gcp
You basically want to do clean handyman stuff. I would expect the issue to be
finding enough customers, although if supply/demand is sufficiently twisted in
your area, it might work.

Calling it "plumber" is quite a misnomer as they have to deal with a lot more
shit (literally and figuratively).

~~~
hippich
handymen charge $50+ which is still too much in my opinion for level and
rarity of skill they have.

------
massappeal
you might find this interesting
[http://gselevator.wordpress.com/2013/09/04/meet-jack-the-
plu...](http://gselevator.wordpress.com/2013/09/04/meet-jack-the-plumber-
philosopher/)

------
restlessmedia
Do the job that gives you most satisfaction.

------
rhspeer
I feel the same way, if I had things to do over again I would have gone into a
different and likely skilled labor field.

TLDR: perception, complex value proposition, dev project are not making enough
money, wholesale / retail projects, & dev projects are expensive to sell.

Better hours, awesome power tools, significantly less politics & frustration.
I like solving problems and I spend most of my time keeping clients from
sabotaging their projects and dealing with syntax & communication.

A couple points I'd make: 1) Skilled labor have significant fixed costs with
equipment and buildings, I have about 5k (maybe) total invested in my little
home based web dev business (contact me for quality onshore+offshore web
development ;). The fixed costs for skilled labor are easier to understand,
for example the phrase "it was cheaper for me to higher it out than buy the
tools and probably mess it up the first time".

2) Most software projects are losing money, get on a project where your work
is within the direct profit stream and rates are higher, as are expectations.

3) One of the many difficult things about tech projects are that it's really
difficult to understand what is hard and what is easy. Estimates are rough
even after over 10 years of programming, non technical stakeholders have no
idea, that goes double for the ones that tell you about all the cool tech
stuff they did in the 90's. With plumbing, and almost any other skill, the
value proposition is easier to see.

4) Dev's do not do a good job of appearing to be important. Like it or not
perception is a big deal, I loath working with suits, and do what I can to
avoid looking like them because looking professional has become synonymous
with high quality hair product and low quality work. I realize if I look
expensive, act like I know what I'm doing, people assume I know what I'm
doing. I usually do, but I'm also usually working at home in a T-shirt,
carhartt shorts, and flippy flops, but when clients seem me I dress like Bill
Gates & Warren Buffet, not to slick but professional.

5) Many dev clients are not retail, they are wholesale. It's important to
adjust rates based off volume & project risk. Joe Shmoe from craigslist is
going to offer a low volume project, with the high risk that he's going to
mess up his project and blame you because he has no idea what he's doing,
those guys get higher rates. Agencies that have a good plan, reasonable
volume, and a history of success have earned a lower rate.

6) Dev projects are expensive to sell compared to skilled labor projects, this
means sales guys deserve a bigger cut, and since they are good at negotiating
they leverage this to get as much as they can. This leaves a smaller piece of
the pie for the rest of the team.

------
dinisp
www.handybook.com/apply

------
dlsx
No, because your passion is not plumbing.

You seem frustrated monetarily, yet seem to enjoy your profession.

Honestly, find a new niche for your services and keep working hard and doing
your best in your current field. As long as you are following your
dream/passion the end always justifies the means.

