
Game Theory: How 70,000 Pokemon Players Sabotage Themselves - minimaxir
http://minimaxir.com/2014/02/glory-to-the-helix/
======
jfasi
This is a fascinating example of the power of biased randomness. The gameplay
challenges this article points out are notable because they require sequences
of inputs that are both specific and lengthy. Even if the input stream were
random, there would still be a nonzero probability that the correct sequence
of instructions would be realized.

On the other hand, this stream _isn 't_ random. If it were truly random, the
player would just move pointlessly in a horrible Brownian motion. It's
nonsensical, to be sure, but in some weird way it encapsulates knowledge about
the game, and as a result the game makes progress.

It sort of enlightens other places where true randomness is required, and the
presence of any information or understanding radically changes the behavior of
a system. In cryptography, even the slightest weakness in the probabilistic
underpinnings of a cryptosystem can render it useless. In finance, even the
slightest edge over the market can be leveraged to produce gains.

~~~
phillmv
I watched last night as they went back to the PC just to retrieve the Helix
Fossil. That was madness.

~~~
psbp
The mythologizing of the random crap that happens in the game is the best
part. I like how opposing cults are being built around different
items/characters in the game. It's more interesting than the fact that things
actually get accomplished with the seemingly random actions.

~~~
GFischer
The article's URL is "Glory to the Helix", and there are derivatives like "Ask
the almighty Helix Fossil"

[http://askhelixfossil.com/](http://askhelixfossil.com/)

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Dylan16807
It's not the fighting and trolling that causes 90% of the problems, it's the
delay on the video that means everyone has to guess where the game will be
half a minute in the future.

Such a shame that twitch changed streaming technologies recently. It used to
be easy to get as low as 2-3 seconds of latency. A world of difference in
something like this.

For example, that ledge, it was easy to get enough 'right' movement to
overpower malicious 'down' commands, because the first input in a direction
only turns the character. But there were 'down' commands needed to get to the
ledge, and the lag caused them to keep pouring in after they were no longer
needed.

This article is a nice overview of the spectacle but its premise is
fundamentally flawed.

~~~
crazypyro
Twitch did this in response to a huge amount of complaints about lag. It
reduces the chance of stutter lag, but hinders audience interaction. They
figured it was worth the trade. From my experience, they do get a lot less
huge complaint threads on reddit and related gaming sites.

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KVFinn
Some of the trolling isn't trolling, it's a tactic -- specifically the
constant start spamming.

Since twitch.tv recently added up to 30 seconds of stream lag, you want to
spam start during the trickiest movement sections to minimize latency between
the stream and gamestate. This is most important in ledges and mazes!

More of the chat catches up to the current position and starts putting in the
right input, which actually has a higher chance of being accepted, after the
start spam delay.

~~~
scott_s
I think what you mean is "some of the _constant command spamming_ isn't
trolling, it's a tactic". Since trolling tends to be defined by intent, if the
intent is honest, it's usually not called trolling.

~~~
KVFinn
Yup, or some of the so-called trolling isn't trolling.

~~~
scott_s
I was not under the impression that the article author called that trolling. I
understood that there would be enormous difficulty in coordinating the inputs
among the honest players even in the absence of trolls.

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yayitswei
Not much on game theory here; the article was mostly a summary of what
happened so far on stream.

~~~
Botekin
Exactly. This is game theory how? What is the best response? What is the
equilibrium concept? If there isn't an answer to these questions, it's not
game theory.

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wudf
Would be nice of you to credit the artists whose work you rehosted, minimaxir.

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pdeuchler
The millennial generation's version of the Infinite Monkey Theorem[0]?

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem)

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elwell
Here is the video of ABBBBBBK( and JLVWNNOOOO being released by trolls:
[http://www.twitch.tv/twitchplayspokemon/c/3738870](http://www.twitch.tv/twitchplayspokemon/c/3738870)

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shittyanalogy
It's a game, not everyone is playing it for the same reason and the input is
anything but random. There aren't really any conclusions you can draw from
this other than it's entertaining.

~~~
scott_s
I'm not sure if there conclusions that one can draw from it, but I think it
has use for reasoning about security - both physical and virtual. It sounds
like the people who want to progress in the game have started to adopt a set
of "best practices" to both deal with honest players and trolls. I think the
constant presence of trolls makes it quite interesting.

The obvious parallels are to a public-facing computer system, where attackers
are constantly trying to get in. The difference, here, though, is that _no one
has privileged access_. I find that an interesting thought experiment: is it
possible to have any security when attackers have the same rights as legit
users?

~~~
shittyanalogy
Except without a rigid definition of security, or goals there's nothing to
compare, analyze, hypothesize, or even observe.

And that question, everyone already has equal rights on the internet, that's
why security software focuses mostly on identity verification.

~~~
scott_s
You don't need explicit things "to compare, analyze, hypothesize or even
observe" in order to influence how you _think_ about a problem.

And on individual places in the internet, people do not have equal privileges.
For example, there are things that the moderators here on HN can do that you
and I cannot.

~~~
shittyanalogy
If you don't define your problem, how can you come to understand how you think
about it.

That's achieved through identity recognition. All computers are generally
treated the same.

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Globz
This so fascinating, I am almost certain that a new genre of gaming experience
has been created and people will demand more games like this one! This is
complete madness!

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quackerhacker
Well this is definitely a new take on "social," gaming. Instead of fighting
each other, work together in an uncoordinated manner.

I love to see new implementations in gaming, I feel the gaming industry really
cultivated me as a hacker, and Pokemon was my first hack....anyone remember
getting "Missing No."

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skizm
I wonder how long it would take if the game went round robin. Everyone in the
chat got a chance to enter a move and the move was guaranteed to work and
everyone saw the outcome before the next person gets to press their button. I
predict much faster.

~~~
Zarel
What about something more democratic? After a button is input, wait until a
button has been said in chat N times (for some N>1) before pressing that
button. It wouldn't solve the other problems, but it would make it so trolls
wouldn't be able to disrupt gameplay as much unless they have a majority.

~~~
bandwevil
The streamer tried that. It would poll for a few seconds, then execute the
majority command. A large number of people opposed this and began to spam
start in protest, and actually killed all progress until the streamer reverted
it. At the moment there's a slider that allows the chat to vote between
'democracy' and 'anarchy'.

~~~
lnanek2
well...that does give them something to spam for instead of start :)

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awkwit
I'm still amazed that anything was even achieved in that game!

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Aissen
The biggest problem is IMO the delay (20 to 30seconds). Many people believe
the majority of the stream has no idea how it works. Even with democracy
implemented, the delay is still a blocker.

But I have no idea how this could be solved (best thing would be multicast
directly from source to viewers, but this doesn't work on the open internet,
which it why sites like twitch exist).

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zwdr
Using the twitch chat for anything constructive is guaranteed to fail. pls no
coperino ravioli.

~~~
GFischer
What does pls no coperino mean? I googled it and see it repeated often (pls no
coperino pasterino and other variants).

~~~
cycrutchfield
I'm guessing it means copypasta (copy/paste)

~~~
crazypyro
Correct. It came from people copy paste spamming funny comments of others. Its
kind of like a joke when you write a long chat message to say it.

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elwell
My favorite quote:

> If trolls have absolute power, they will use it and they will use it without
> mercy.

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normloman
Proof that crowdsourcing doesn't work in every damn situation.

~~~
johnduhart
Since when was this ever a crowd-sourcing effort?

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normloman
I mean crowd-sourcing in the broadest sense: Making optimal choices based on
the wisdom of crowds.

~~~
pavel_lishin
But these aren't optimal choices; they're just the first choices to hit the
system.

~~~
normloman
Guess I misunderstood how it worked. I figured the decision in the game would
be an average of the individual player's votes. Something like a democracy.
Didn't know it was just whoever pushed the button first.

~~~
crazypyro
There's 2 modes. One is anarchy which is exactly how it sounds meaning it
takes commands straight from chat. The other mode is democracy which has a
simple voting mechanic. The fun is increased because players can vote for the
mode they want in the same chat.

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nobodysfool
should have just had a vote every 10 seconds... most voted answer wins?

~~~
minimaxir
Currently, the stream appears to be implementing a hybrid of aggregate vote
and random vote (democracy vs. anarchy). Oddly enough, the aggregate vote is
doing worse than the random vote.

~~~
KVFinn
>Oddly enough, the aggregate vote is doing worse than the random vote

It's simply because aggregate makes the game so much easier that it makes the
stream seem less interesting.

Progress is not inevitable with the original system, it's miraculous. With
democracy it actually plays the game somewhat normally.

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muyuu
This is what happens with democracy when you execute it badly.

