
Why a Brit chose to start a business in Berlin - 500and4
https://medium.com/@alicelthwaite/why-a-brit-chose-to-start-a-business-in-berlin-b1d395854dee#.68b5prop2
======
woodcut
Welcome to Berlin. :)

I came to Berlin roughly 5 years ago before the investment started pouring in
and most startups were existenz grundungs, this is when you get 50k from the
government and you underpay some interns to build your MVP. It was pretty
shabby back then, and things have changed dramatically in the intervening
years, but most people came for this vague idea of living cheaply and doing
what they want - you could say they washed up here as tourists and stayed. Not
that there's anything wrong with that, but these people are being replaced
with people coming here for startup jobs that pay real salaries. It used to be
that ~500 euros a month was a good startup job, now it's more like 4-5k.

All of this change is happening while Berlins administration is still the
bureaucratic and slow machine that it always has been, they haven't built
affordable housing in 25 years, there's no plan on how to reduce congestion or
prevent gentrification from wiping out existing communities. Registration
takes ~3-5 months to get an appointment, god forbid you're a foreigner and
have to also register at the ausländerbehörde and wait from 3am for the 1 of
50 tickets available that day.

It's nice that people still see a future here, but i take an issue with such a
rosy picture of what it's like to live here, because it really isn't the case.

~~~
GunboatDiplomat
>Registration takes ~3-5 months to get an appointment, god forbid you're a
foreigner and have to also register at the ausländerbehörde and wait from 3am
for the 1 of 50 tickets available that day.

Your bureaucracy makes American bureaucracy seem amazingly efficient in
comparison. I did not know such a thing was possible outside defunct communist
states.

~~~
parennoob
> Your bureaucracy makes American bureaucracy seem amazingly efficient in
> comparison.

Yeah, and I thought waiting at the DMV in the USA was a bit of a pain as a
foreigner. :)

"Wait from 3am for the 1 of 50 tickets available that day" makes Berlin sound
worse than even the third world country I come from.

~~~
denzil_correa
Check out the driving license process in Germany.

~~~
parennoob
Yes, but I was under the impression that getting a driver's license was kind
of optional in Germany, with good public transport. Being a foreigner is not
:)

~~~
JBlue42
Yeah, the DMV is probably the most difficult and time consuming part about
getting a license in this US.

------
jfaucett
The benefits she mentions are legitimate, even though two of them have nothing
to do with Berlin and could be obtained by moving to any new city. (no
distractions, and changing environment equals greater creativity)

So it really boils down to this for her: Berlin is affordable and it has a
good meetup scene. Affordable is relative, salaries are lower in Berlin than
in many other cities and the cost of living has been on a rise as more people
move in, but at the moment she is absolutely right about this much: cost of
living is still significantly lower in Berlin than in London
([https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...](https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&city1=London&country2=Germany&city2=Berlin&displayCurrency=EUR))
[1]

Depending on your product Berlin can be good or bad. I think its almost always
a great fit if your product targets the German market initially and you want
to eventually expand out from there. The other way around will be much more
difficult, mainly because you're sitting in Germany and you're whole business
side of operations must be run in German, under German law, rules, and
regulations.

Having said this, as far as her specific product idea goes, I could see Berlin
being a good fit for her. The super young hipster culture is pervasive
throughout Berlin, and it seems like an idea that would work well in that
market.

1\. I worked on a German startup for 3 years in Berlin

~~~
alicelthwaite
Thanks - I agree with everything you've just said. The thing I didn't mention
is that I love the Berlin culture. I knew I'd feel at home here. So there's a
subjective reason too.

------
doc_holliday
"My business is called The Echo Chamber Club — we curate articles that counter
a traditional metropolitan viewpoint and send them to our hundreds of
subscribers. It makes sense that I remove myself from London to understand new
points of view and communicate them with my subscribers."

With regards to "liberal metropolitan" viewpoints, Berlin won't challenge you
anymore than London did. It's just another global city where inside your group
of people you are likely to meet (given what you work in) they will more than
likely be liberal and metroplitan.

~~~
alicelthwaite
Hmmm I kind of disagree there. I'm having to make new friends and get out of
my comfort zone. In time I'm going to start exploring other areas. I'm really
keen to get collaborators on board for instance.

Nothing is perfect - this was just the best move for me at the time :)

~~~
roymurdock
As someone who is looking to make moves soon (possibly international), I quite
enjoyed your post.

RIP Fabric...you'll be sorely missed. Now you'll have to wait in line for
Berghain. Best of luck on the new business!

~~~
alicelthwaite
Haha Berghain is yet to let me in. I wonder what the record is for consecutive
refusals? I'll try and beat it... :)

------
jkxyz
I'm planning on moving from London to Berlin within 6 months (I'm British),
and mostly for the same reasons (RIP fabric). I have a couple of German
citizens as friends who are also seriously considering doing the same. My main
concern is how to avoid joining the English-speaking bubble. Although nothing
has charged my motivation for learning German more than the recent government
responses to Brexit. It does feel a bit ironic that I'm fleeing to Germany
from a fascist government.

~~~
flukus
Respecting a democratic vote is fascist?

~~~
jkxyz
Not exactly. But there are definitely overtones of nationalism and anti-
liberalism in what ministers were saying at the Conservative party conference
and in recent anti-immigration proposals. They're also insisting on denying
MPs and the public a vote on the exact terms of our withdrawal when many
people are calling the referendum irresponsible and the result a flippant
protest. So currently "respecting" this vote is not exactly the height of
liberal democracy either.

------
rubber_duck
Why Western Europe if you want to get cost of living down and move somewhere ?
Eastern Europe is 1/3 cost of living, usually has very good tax rates
(Bulgaria has 10% flat tax on income + local tax for example, Hungary is close
AFAIK) and there are startup accelerators trying to take advantage of that.

If you're using your own money to fund it and have customers who don't care
about your location you'll have much easier time finding employees, especially
non-technical staff like art/marketing/sales/customer support.

~~~
VeejayRampay
How do you define "very good tax rates" though? Is it the same thing as "low
taxes"? Are high taxes in Northern Europe "bad taxes"?

Taxes are not theft you know, they're supposed to buy you and your fellow
citizens things (health care, infrastructure, cheap education, services, etc),
some of them highly beneficial to a startup.

~~~
rubber_duck
Depends on what you need, but from a startup perspective they are stiffing and
offer very little in return, if you're not dependent on the local market
you're just increasing costs.

~~~
m_t
Proper health care, good infrastructure, all those sorts of thing can make a
difference if the startup wants to have local employees - or even if the
founder wants to benefit from them.

~~~
rubber_duck
If we're talking about supporting a family then having subsidized nurseries,
good pediatric care, schools, social support structures etc. are definitely
worth it.

If we're talking about single healthy people working for equity trying to cut
cost of living in hope of big payout down the road then the difference between
40% and 10% income tax is huge and you're not really getting much out of your
taxes.

------
akanet
While the author makes good points about the relative affordability of Berlin,
one does have to wonder what the general plan for newsletter profitability is.

~~~
alicelthwaite
Hey! I'm the author! This is pretty cool to be number one on Hacker News. The
idea behind the newsletter is to build a brand which makes liberal
metropolitans comfortable with hearing viewpoints outside their own. Then I
can monetise it! :)

~~~
zigzigzag
No offence intended as I enjoyed reading your article and it wasn't really
about your business, but if a liberal metropolitan wanted to experience
viewpoints outside their own, couldn't they just browse to dailymail.co.uk?
It's free and monetised already.

If the idea is something more highbrow, again, surely they could just
subscribe to the Telegraph? Or watch Fox News?

Or heck, just use reddit? Lots of different viewpoints there.

Providing people with news that violates their own political biases and then
getting them to pay for it seems very difficult. The more open minded ones who
are willing to pay for views different to their own have lots of places they
can seek out such views already.

~~~
alicelthwaite
I would say that my target market aren't really familiar with twitter - let
alone Reddit. Also it's just a time thing - I spend about 15 - 20 hours
researching each newsletter.

------
hellofunk
Wow, 20 square meters for €480? That doesn't register as affordable on my
books (even with utilities included).

~~~
scrollaway
Yeah. If you're shooting for affordability, Athens is a much better bet. 20sqm
studios below €100/month in the heart of the capital.

(Good luck getting decent internet, though.)

~~~
icebraining
There's Lisbon, as a middle point. 300-400€/m for a 60m² and you can get a
1Gbps/100mbps connection to your home.

~~~
uola
From what I've heard Lisbon is about the same cost as Berlin. But the economy
is worse, the tax system seems more complex and it's less accessible to
foreigners. I guess the weather is nicer, but the location is worse. To
legitimately compete with Berlin I think one really has to offer something
special, otherwise Berlin wins by default in the low-medium cost category.
Lisbon would still be on my shortlist for European bootstrap cities, but there
are also at least half a dozen other cities that could be equivalent.

~~~
regularjack
Why do you say it's less accessible to foreigners?

~~~
uola
For people to choose something it first have to be a realistic option. Berlin
is much more established as an international and "tech" city. You hear about
people moving there all the time. For whatever problem you'll face there's
bound to be someone else who has done it. When it comes to moving you don't
want to be a pioneer and spend thousands of euros finding out if it's doable
and ending up not liking it. Being in the same boat as other people helps with
that uncertainty.

------
rurban
Dresden is even better. I moved from Houston, TX to Dresden and I'm very happy
with my choice. Technically it's more interesting, as the University and high
tech companies here are much more advanced (i.e the l4 microkernel is from
here), prices are the same, and Dresden is a much more beautiful town than
ugly Berlin. Lots of English speaking foreigners, and people are more
friendly. For startup's there's only one or two meetup points and
helpers/investors but still better than Houston or Austin.

If going for cheap, Wroclaw or Prague would be better.

~~~
hellofunk
> Dresden is a much more beautiful town than ugly Berlin.

That is certainly subjective (and offensive). I have not been to Dresden but I
found Berlin to be quite an interesting aesthetic environment and hardly sore
on the eyes. It has huge, lovely green parks and I find the wide open spaces
throughout the town rather refreshing.

~~~
danielbln
It's a big city, there are ugly parts, and there are pretty parts. Same for
Dresden, it has some really lovely buildings, but anything that was built
after the 50s is ugly as sin.

~~~
Normal_gaussian
How much of Dresden was rebuilt 45-60 and how much was rebuilt later? I
presume most land was made usable pretty quickly however I can't imagine they
were high quality long term buildings.

I need to go to Dresden.

------
cheriot
The conversation focuses on price, but the other points are key.

1\. There's a huge tech scene in Berlin and it's easy to meet bright people.

2\. People want to live in Berlin. The art and music scene attract people.

Affordable alone can be found in many places. Combined with 1 and 2 is a
pretty unique proposition.

~~~
alicelthwaite
Hey Cheriot! I totally agree!

------
TamDenholm
Genuine question, Whats the business model for The Echo Chamber Club? I've
always seen newsletters as a marketing tool for a business, rather than a
business itself. Very interested to how you'd make money with it as a
standalone business.

~~~
alicelthwaite
Hey Tam - thanks for your question. So my target market don't generally want
to hear the topics I'm posting. They have to trust that I'm as liberal as they
are before they start taking me seriously.

So it became clear that the most important part of the ECC was to create a
trusted brand.

Otherwise, I spent about a year trying to figure out a solution to the filter
bubble. I was looking at RSS feeds, new types of algorithms, and it was all
very complicated. The idea of a newsletter MVP made sense.

After I get to about 5k subscribers I'll be putting on events - with the aim
of creating a B2B qualitative research firm. But that's a long way off - who
knows where the journey will take me.

Feel free to add me on twitter so we can discuss more - would love your
thoughts! @alicelthwaite

~~~
justinclift
Just to check, you've seen this?

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12557500](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12557500)

~~~
alicelthwaite
Oh dear - I've since moved hosting providers. Are you having issues now?

~~~
justinclift
Wasn't me. Just pointing it out in case you wanted to follow up. ;)

------
drumhead
She must also speak German right?

~~~
jorgemf
She must learn German. The thing with Berlin is that there are a lot of
startups with foreign people, and a lot of Germans speak English. But when you
want to do normal day things as going to the market you need German to
understand what are you buying and to talk with the people. It is not like
other countries where you cannot get a job or life if you don't speak the
language. You can get a job in Berlin as a English speaker but you must learn
the local language for the day to day things.

~~~
hellofunk
I agree, my experience after a week of work in Berlin was that a lot of the
restaurants I visited, the waitress couldn't speak English at all. Or taking a
cab was sometimes quite an effort to communicate as well.

Even more strange, Berlin (and perhaps much of Germany, I don't know), places
much greater emphasis on cash than on electronic payments like credit cards. I
gave a credit card to a vendor once and they looked like they couldn't figure
out what it was. In fact, as they were trying to understand it, I motioned
that they were in fact studying it upside down! Other restaurants would tell
me it was the first credit card they had seen in weeks, and the owner simply
hadn't bothered to bring the credit card machine in from his house in a long
time. Not a problem, just a bit strange to me.

Berlin is a neat place, though, and I love German food (and beer) a lot, but
it cannot be overstated how you quickly come to realize that you currently
take for granted speaking the same language as everyone around you, and unless
you know German already, that convenience will evaporate immediately upon
moving there. Even all the Holywood movies and U.S. TV shows are dubbed into
German -- it is the largest overdub market in the entertainment industry,
because Germans generally place low emphasis on learning other languages (just
like Americans do).

~~~
DasIch
Cash is much more popular however another big factor is that credit cards
aren't really a thing. Instead Germany has its own system of EC cards which
are directly tied to your bank account (which most people get as a child here)
and work more like debit cards.

The only reason to have a credit card as a German is for buying this outside
of Germany.

~~~
justanton
I live in Germany, and I always wondered: how Germans buy online and/or book
hotels/tickets online, if most of them don't have credit cards and only have
this EC-Karte?

~~~
ThePadawan
This differs quite a big on the size of the respective business (of sales).

Amazon.de e.g. offers the choice of * credit card (as internationally) *
direct withdrawal (meaning you give them your bank account details and they
withdraw the amount directly - sort of sketchy from the customer's point of
view, but no different from credit cards - if anything goes awry, you just
challenge the charge directly with the bank instead of the card issuer) *
bill-based (generally only for small amounts or trusted customers - might
involve a "credit score" check from Schufa
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schufa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schufa))
to deter fraud)

------
martiuk
Why didn't you move to Birmingham?

------
aibottle
"Business": Weekly Newsletter. BS Medium strikes again.

------
branchless
Let me guess: because the UK is a rentier hell hole?

------
k__
Before I click the link: Berlin is cheaper than London.

Edit: And I was right, haha.

While London is one of the most expensive cities in the world, Berlin is cheap
for German conditions. At least the parts that haven't been gentrified yet ;)

Berlin is really cool and has lots of alternative people and seems to be the
only german city with a bigger start-up scene, but it's poor AF. I'm living in
Stuttgart and while I prefer to hang in Berlin, the money is in the south.

~~~
pjc50
Yup. Although I would note that there are also cheaper UK cities! Consider
Liverpool or Bristol, for example.

~~~
ptaipale
The peculiarity of Berlin is that it has lower cost than many other German
cities.

This is unusual, because typically you pay a premium for working in the
capital of the nation. In Berlin, that is explained by the history (West
Berlin was an enclave within DDR and the capital of BRD was in Bonn; Berlin
was subsidized and had lots of relatively cheap housing which is not yet fully
priced up 25 years after German unification).

~~~
Gravityloss
If your customer is a German business, and you would like to visit them, it's
very likely their headquarters are in West Germany, which is far away. So you
don't have much country offices of multinational companies in Berlin. It's
very different from other countries' biggest cities.

I guess it works better for pure internet companies that sell directly to
consumers.

~~~
ptaipale
This is true, but I expect the situation will slowly change, and more business
will concentrate in Berlin, because the federal administration is a big
customer now that more of it is relocating in Berlin.

------
500and4
For clarity: This is not my work. The author is my most excellent friend
alicelthwaite ([http://echochamber.club/](http://echochamber.club/))

------
rms_returns
Does this have anything to do with BREXIT?

~~~
alicelthwaite
Ha - I'm the author - I would say that Brexit is a minor factor for leaving.
The main one is affordability. Also Berlin is more fun...

~~~
simonhorlick
So Brexit does impact your decision? I'm interested to know why, and how, it
impacts you.

~~~
alicelthwaite
Hello Simon! I'd say no not really - I did think that I may only have 2 years
to travel around Europe. But it was a minor reason.

------
smegel
I wish I had a startup and I could just throw a dart at a map and go live and
work there.

~~~
k__
Well, someone who could live and start a business in London probably has much
money to start with.

