

Treaty gives Hong Kong option to reject Snowden extradition to the US - gridscomputing
http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1257639/treaty-gives-hong-kong-option-reject-snowden-extradition-us

======
jenandre
Sorry, but I don't buy this guy's story. Something is just incredibly fishy.

I don't buy this guy's argument for going to Hong Kong, e.g. that has a
history of free speech, and its supposed autonomy from the mainland -- even
after all of these years, Chinese pressure prevents Taiwan from international
recognition. You think they are just letting Hong Kong do its own thing? He
seems intelligent and must be aware of this, especially having worked in the
intelligence world. The Chinese firewall is the most renowned internet
chokehold in the world. The Chinese are known for hacking Google to spy on
their own citizens.

I just have to think of it if I were in his situation. If I were a freedom-
loving individual looking to seek asylum, I'd probably first look at countries
that granted asylum in similar cases that weren't internationally renowned for
suppressing freedom of speech. Assange has asylum with Ecuador, why not go
there first? China is just such a weird choice for someone who is purportedly
morally driven to his actions by privacy violations.

Not only that, this situation has nothing but upsides for the Chinese. It
looks great for them to expose another world power is spying on their own
citizens (and weakens any diplomatic arguments the US has when pressuring them
to open up free speech and the internet). It's also a nice thorn to retort
after all of the recent hubbub about Chinese government hackers. If he wasn't
an active spy in the traditional definition feeding the Chinese information,
he is certainly an asset by circumstance -- why wouldn't they manipulate him
to their benefit?

Now, that's not saying the US did the right thing -- we kind of fucked
ourselves here having PRISM in place first of all -- but I am not sure this
guy is the lone ranger whistleblower hero is painting himself to be.

~~~
bifrost
>Sorry, but I don't buy this guy's story. Something is just incredibly fishy.
>I am not sure this guy is the lone ranger whistleblower hero is painting
himself to be.

That is exactly right. Its much too convenient. This guy was probably a PRC
mole/sleeper. Who defects to a country that still executes dissidents?

~~~
sneak
At
[https://twitter.com/SCClemons/status/343392529913356289](https://twitter.com/SCClemons/status/343392529913356289)
@scclemons writes:

> In Dulles UAL lounge listening to 4 US intel officials saying loudly leaker
> & reporter on #NSA stuff should be disappeared recorded a bit

~~~
jenandre
lol, perfect example of why twitter is retarded.

I live in DC and know tons of people who work for the government. Guess what?
They are people like you and I, and in a lot of cases less capable or bright
(which is why they go for cushy government jobs). They get drunk and they act
like assholes in groups, you hear them talking garbage all the time on the
metro and in restaurants.

Just because these people (who in all likelihood are bureaucrats with no power
at all) say they want this guy dead doesn't mean they have any power or
ability to send out the hit squad, or killing reporters is now US Policy. It's
just as meaningless as me randomly saying "god, I wish Karl Rove was dead."

~~~
mapt
Killing reporters is _not_ US policy. Yet. Pulling clear diplomatic strings to
insinuate a rape accusation and force them into a situation where they require
diplomatic sanctuary, on the other hand...

------
einhverfr
He probably did his research, looked at court systems etc. He probably expects
to spend some time fighting over extradition. Its not really a bad call (Hong
Kong). The question is, where do you want to fight? What battlefield do you
want to choose?

I don't know. It is probably better than many other choices. One major problem
with choosing Ecuador is that if Ecuador is involved in both Snowden and
Assange there are potentially large problems for them. I don't doubt for a
moment that Correa would love the fight, but I do doubt that it would last
past one administration.

He's the underdog. Wherever he chooses, he bears a huge level of risk. There
is a lot to recommend HongKong.

But in addition, the fact that it poses important options for resisting
extradition provides another way of fighting. If the Obama Administration
wants this to go quietly they do not want a long extradition fight showing up
in papers followed by a long court trial.

~~~
einhverfr
As a note (too late to edit) it is possible he could be gambling for example
that if the US asks for extradition the Chinese will come asking for
classified information or better yet, that the fear of the Chinese doing so
would be enough to keep the US from asking for extradition.

------
bitserf
I don't see a downside for Hong Kong/China in rejecting an extradition
request.

Cynically, it's leverage and they'll have the moral high ground in the eyes of
the world.

~~~
JDShu
Being in HK for the summer, I honestly don't get the impression that anybody
here cares about this particular issue.

~~~
pyre
The extradition decision will be done at a high-level for someone like
Snowden. Whether or not the common citizens of HK care about the NSA hoopla
doesn't really factor into it.

~~~
potatolicious
It'll be done at a high level, but PR will be a large part of it.

The US is a valued trading partner of both HK and China. One doesn't generally
go about pissing off their major trading partners unless there's something in
it for them.

There are really only two things Snowden can give HK or China:

\- Further intelligence. This seems unlikely if his story is what he says it
is.

\- A giant PR coup domestically, putting the Chinese government, for once, on
the right side of a human rights/democracy/transparency issue.

That second part depends largely on how much the general population can be
made to care about the issue. The Chinese won't hang onto a _highly_ wanted
American criminal that the US federal government desperately wants tried, not
unless they can extract something out of the deal.

~~~
buro9
That second one is a benefit not to PR to the general population, but as an
underline to Chinese statements in arenas such as the UN which seek to defend
their practises (censorship, monitoring) in the face of very hypocritical
statements by the US. The cost of doing this is negligible, yet the value to
them as a PR coup on a political level is quite high.

------
uvdiv
The article is confusing. More clearly: both Hong Kong _and_ the PRC
(mainland) can deny extraditions from HK to the US.

 _Beijing, which gave its consent for Hong Kong to sign the agreement, also
has a right of veto if it believes the surrender of a fugitive would harm the
"defence, foreign affairs or essential public interest or policy'' of the
People's Republic of China. In short, the treaty makes Snowden's fate a matter
of political expediency not just in Hong Kong but in Beijing._

[http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-
snowden-h...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-hong-
kong-gamble)

~~~
sfall
Hong Kong is special, while it is part of china it is also acts on it's own
with permission from the mainland. That is why Beijing gets it's own vote in
what happens with Hong Kong

------
quackerhacker
Given Snowden's background in intel and the information exposed, I think he
calculated his decision correctly. Even though other countries (like Iceland)
are offering asylum, I really do believe Snowden choose a formidable country
that opposes western views...anyone recall Hilary Clinton addressing China's
firewall, or Google pulling out?

~~~
einhverfr
Additionally consider this. The ball is now in the court of the US Government.
They can ask for extradition or they can wait. If they ask for extradition,
what is China's next move? The logical one is to approach Snowden and ask him
to make a deal, to exchange classified information in exchange for asylum.
That puts the ball back in Snowden's court and he has three options:

1\. Let the US know he has had the offer and ask them to step down before he
has to take it.

2\. Take the Chinese up on the offer.

3\. Reject the Chinese offer, turn himself in, and return to the US in
shackles specifying he did not sell out his country. If he can manage to do
that publicly, that might also be a great great gamble that might turn out in
his favor.

The more I think about it, the more I am impressed with his choice.

~~~
quackerhacker
The Guy Fawkes mask that anonymous uses illustrates what? - treason (hope
that's not too cryptic)

I strongly agree with you that I too am impressed with each calculated
decision he has taken...even down to the press release.

The press release is also key in his decision to reveal him self. By doing so,
how suspicious would it be if he "committed suicide." An example of how the
press can protect him, you need not look farther than Julian Assange.

And even when it comes to the initial press release, the only reason I believe
that it was revealed in the order that it did was for competition. He seeked
the Guardian (in England), and compelled the Post (in the US) to publish. In
media, it's all about being first, royalties, and copyrights. Check the link
below.

I'd have to say, his execution of his plan, was very well calculated.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5853496](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5853496)

~~~
einhverfr
> The Guy Fawkes mask that anonymous uses illustrates what? - treason (hope
> that's not too cryptic)

First 100% agreed with your points.

As a tangent.

BTW, if I ever start a hacktivist group I will use a medieval split tally
stick for a logo.

Why?

In 1834, the humble tally stick accomplished what Guy Fawkes was unable to.
Look up "1834 parliament tally stick" to see what I mean.

~~~
quackerhacker
Reminds me of the plot in V for Vendetta. I'm sure we'll hear from some of
Anonymous this week, but in regard to hacktivism...just remember, the nail
that sticks out gets hammered.

In memory of LulzSec:
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAYL5H46QnQ](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAYL5H46QnQ)

~~~
einhverfr
The great irony though was that what caused the Great Fire was burning tally
sticks that were the government's half of tax receipts.

There's something deliciously ironic about trying to dispose of tax receipts
causing both houses of parliament to be burned to the ground.

Never, never underestimate the humble tally stick ;-)

------
adamnemecek
I wonder whether the HK government perceives him as an asset or liability.

~~~
ihsw
Either way the USG will be working as hard as hell to make him a liability for
_everybody_ except the US.

------
_rush
why everybody thinks he's realy in hongkong? at his place I'd say I'm in any
place but real location.

------
anonymous
So that's where the Snowdens of yesteryear are.

~~~
instakill
Correct, Yossarian

------
bifrost
Snowden is probably already a PRC citizen, he doesn't have much to worry
about.

