
Why There Are No Girls In San Francisco - condor
http://whytherearenogirls.blogspot.com/2009/08/14-lop-sided-gender-ratio.html
======
lr
I've had more time to think about this... This link is now the number 2 link
on HN. A few days ago one of the top links was about how to survive on
$36/month for food. You have to be kidding me, right? Sorry, but woman and
marathon, multi-day coding sessions filled with noodles, beans, rice, oats and
pb&j just don't mix.

~~~
bretthoerner
Exactly.

Think about the kind of guy who starts a blog dedicated to the fact that there
"aren't girls in San Francisco".

Now find me a group of girls flocking to be in his presence.

~~~
Goladus
It's too bad, because he's clearly got a good sense of humor.

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jasonlbaptiste
The valley, specifically Palo Alto is not that bad at all. Actually it's damn
good. It's a college town, and Stanford girls are quite good looking. The bar
scene is nice at Old Pro, Blue Chalk, etc. Sadly, facebook employees often
overtake a lot of the old pro.

If you're in the tech industry, then you probably spend most of your time out
at "industry" events. There might occasionally be a couple of cute girls, but
you're looking in the wrong place.

I can't speak for SF itself, since I always hung out in the Valley. Dress
well, get in shape, and be charismatic, as you'll actually be able to stand
out above the plethora of anti-social bufoons. You're also probably passionate
about what you do, so make sure that comes across as women seem to respect
that too out there.

This all comes from someone who now lives in Miami, where the women are
supposed to be unbelievably attractive. They are, but i'll use the cliche and
say looks aren't everything. Actually the women here are so dumb and
pretentious that it's able to make supermodels become unattractive. The Valley
has an awesome balance of looks and brains, so do not take that for granted.

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ajg1977
Somehow I suspect the guys who are getting the girls aren't at home writing
blog posts about the subject.

~~~
Eliezer
I believe the technical term for this is _ad hominem_. Is it even _possible_
for an argument to be _true_ if it subjects the author to a witty reply?
Apparently the Internet would have us believe that all such arguments are _a
priori_ certain to be false.

~~~
gjm11
Er, no, it's pointing out a selection bias which means that anyone inclined to
take the _existence_ of this person writing about "why there are no girls in
SF" (plus, I guess, the apparent shortage of people writing about what a great
place SF is for heterosexual men to find partners) as _evidence_ that SF is
(functionally) very short of women -- which, let's face it, lots of people
would -- should think twice before doing so.

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branden
As someone who is considering moving to San Francisco, this is terrifying.
Please, can a local soothe me with a rebuttal?

~~~
zaidf
1\. If you're into Asian women(and may be they are into you), you'll feel like
you've won the lottery by moving to SF. 2\. If you're not, well, you'll learn
to:)

~~~
joez
I'd like to offer a corollary, if you are an Asian man... lots of Asian girls
are only looking for white men... thusly lowering your pool.

But San Francisco's women are beautiful and amazing. There are few other
cities that compare. You may just need a bit more luck than elsewhere.

~~~
californiaguy
> lots of Asian girls are only looking for white men

This usually wears off around age 25 after these girls realize that the world
is slightly more complicated than TV portrays it to be.

Note that I'm talking about the ones who date _only_ white guys, not the ones
who are normal and will date any attractive guy of any race.

~~~
FooBarWidget
How's TV related to Asian women's preference for white males? (I'm Dutch so I
don't know what kind of stuff you broadcast)

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kqr2
From one of the article's references:

[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-
news/3318366/Weal...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-
news/3318366/Wealth-is-key-for-marriage-study-claims.html)

 _Pedersen suggested that people will change many aspects of their behaviour
as a knock-on effect of the competition induced by sex ratio fluctuations. For
men, these include greater fidelity, commitment to careers, and increased
investment in children when women are scarce._

Is there evidence that men are also more committed to marriages in San
Francisco? Are divorce rates lower?

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paul9290
Also why is there a lack of African American people there?

Anyone ever been to a technology conference? I felt like I stepped into
Harvard circa 1955.

~~~
defen
You just need to go across the Bay Bridge. I'm not sure how or when it
happened but for some reason San Francisco is very white and Oakland is very
black.

~~~
coolnewtoy
Hunter's point and the Filmore district are also heavily African-American.

But when I was there during the 97-99 boom there was a noticeable lack of
African Americans in tech and web companies.

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lsb
As a gay man in Boston, I'd be fascinated if someone revisited those numbers
in a queer context: how do things change for bisexuals? Homosexuals? What's
the effect of mixed genders in a bar? The common trend seems to just be
packing more 21-35 year old men into a room, and I don't know how far that is
from optimal.

~~~
mynameishere
You're asking what the gay scene is like in San Francisco?

~~~
lsb
No, I'm wondering, if you have 100 gays at a bar, what different demographics
would add or detract from it. Cause if you have 10 more hot guys, there's
nothing stopping them from dancing in a clique unconnected to anyone else,
versus 10 ladies who probably didn't go out to hook up with each other at the
end of the night. Are there different types of guys you could incentivize to
show up, like Ladies' Night?

~~~
defen
Contrary to what the movies/TV portray, generally when groups of straight
single women go out to bars together they are _not_ looking to hook up.

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justin
Going to a bar to meet women is stacking the deck against you in SF. The best
place to go is yoga class. Plus, you'll be able to actually do something nice
for your body at the same time.

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kqr2
Is there any explanation from game theory as to why a slight imbalance causes
such an exaggerated effect?

It makes sense that since there are more men, women get pickier, so
paradoxically there appears to be less good men available to women.

What does game theory predict in such a situation?

~~~
californiaguy
<http://www.slate.com/id/2188684/>

The eligible bachelor paradox.

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zaidf
SF is outrightly depressing when it comes to girls! The numbers are just not
comparable to a city like NYC or LA.

~~~
ajg1977
Numbers? I myself like to focus on quality.

I can't talk about NY, but having lived in LA for 5+ years I can safely say
that it's a horrible place for either sex to seek out any form of lasting
relationship.

Of course if you love spending your evenings in bars buying drinks for willing
girls under 25 (or at least who claim to be) then LA's a great place to live.

~~~
zaidf
I am surprised you say that about LA. Though I haven't lived there, I have
multiple friends that wouldn't trade LA for a thing! They are also not the
relationship-types but do have stunning women around them whenever I meet
them.

As for buying drinks, you know, that depends on the individual's mojo;) I've
personally never tasted alcohol so the question of buying someone else a drink
is far off. But I get your point.

~~~
ajg1977
Oh I loved LA too for the first few years. It's a great place to live when
you're in your twenties with some disposable income and aren't looking for
anything too permanent. And yes, it has a bountiful supply of women who would
be knockouts in any other town but are just average in LA.

After a few years though I just found it got kinda old, repetitive and a
little shallow. Ironically I now live in SF :)

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johnrob
That is spot on. Population-wise, SF men outnumber the women by something like
55%-45%. However, if you tried to estimate that number based on the nightlife
scene, you'd arrive at something like 70%-30%. I think the psychological
concept that the essay sites also explains the lack of girls in bars (which,
for many guys, is a far more important stat than the population-wide one).

~~~
lr
I don't know what bars you hand out in, but there are plenty of women (I
prefer women to girls) in the bars/clubs I go to. You want to see beautiful
women desperate to find a man, go to District (corner of Townsend and Ritch).

~~~
timr
District is certainly a great scene for men with deep pockets and the women
who love them.

~~~
justin
Edited: District is certainly a great scene for men with deep pockets and the
women over 35 who live them.

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aswanson
I remember reading an article posted here awhile back about Zuckerberg and
some other young guys being accosted in a bar by a transvestite. I thought,
"Geez, only in SF can a straight potential billionaire not get an old-
fashioned hetero lap dance."

Anecdotal, but I went for a few interviews in that place and it is definitely
NOT the place to be for a single straight man in his 20s.

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awt
The Lower Peninsula is relatively devoid of Women. San Francisco is not.

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dustineichler
Relationships are a distant priority here, work definitely comes first. Life
suffers etc...

~~~
lr
Exactly! You got a huge population of men in the SF area who want to work
70-80 hours/week. This leaves the door wide open for the men who have time for
a relationship. I have found that women in SF are desperate to find men that
will make time for them.

~~~
teeja
I wish I could tell all you guys working 70-80 hours the stories I've heard
from 45-year-old guys who did that when they were your age. Short version: cut
that out.

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araneae
Because females are less likely to be entrepreneurs and less likely to be
programmers.

You don't even need to have a whole blog about it.

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sfphotoarts
this is complete nonsense, SF is full of very beautiful women. After living
here for many years, I'd respectfully disagree with this.

The neighborhoods with the highest density (scientifically studied over a
lifetime) are The Lower Haight and The Mission.

~~~
rdouble
I lived in SF for years and think you're nuts. Completely nuts! The Lower
Haight!?!?! The only explanation I have is that you've contracted the dating
version of Stockholm Syndrome. Where are the beautiful women hanging out in
the Lower Haight? Noc Noc? Peacock Lounge? What's your idea of beautiful?
Janene Garafalo?

The Lower Haight was the one neighborhood I could count on where I'd go into a
bar and there would be _literally no women_. Even worse odds than the Castro
or the tranny parts of the Tenderloin. Try it - go to Toronado any night of
the week and count the number of women.

Anyway, the best place to meet women is Union Square during lunch hour during
the week. The people there are generally employed, take reasonable care of
themselves, and aren't trying to live out some lame grungy hipster fantasy
life straight out of 1993...

~~~
antonovka
_I lived in SF for years and think you're nuts. Completely nuts! The Lower
Haight!?!?! The only explanation I have is that you've contracted the dating
version of Stockholm Syndrome. Where are the beautiful women hanging out in
the Lower Haight? Noc Noc? Peacock Lounge? What's your idea of beautiful?
Janene Garafalo?_

I met my wife at the Noc Noc, and she doesn't look like Janene Garafalo (not
that there's anything wrong with that), but your anecdotal mileage may, of
course, vary.

 _The Lower Haight was the one neighborhood I could count on where I'd go into
a bar and there would be literally no women. Even worse odds than the Castro
or the tranny parts of the Tenderloin. Try it - go to Toronado any night of
the week and count the number of women._

The Toronado is for beer. You go there to partake of their positively
astoundingly amazing on-tap selection, not pick up women.

 _Anyway, the best place to meet women is Union Square during lunch hour
during the week. The people there are generally employed, take reasonable care
of themselves, and aren't trying to live out some lame grungy hipster fantasy
life straight out of 1993..._

I see -- you were just in the wrong city! If you wanted post-sorority
"generally employed" women, you really shouldn't have moved to San Francisco.
You certainly shouldn't have been surprised that this restricted your options
to department store neighborhoods and office commuter destinations.

I'd suggest a location such as such as LA or Manhattan, which are probably
more socially amenable to your cultural presumptions.

~~~
rdouble
_I see -- you were just in the wrong city!_

You are right - I moved to Manhattan.

~~~
antonovka
Anyone have a reference of a study on using secondary social indicators to
estimate an individuals likely behavior, prejudices, socio-economic history
and current status, etc?

~~~
defen
<http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/>

~~~
swolchok
I didn't get Stuff White People Like. It seems to be Stuff Yuppies and
Hipsters Like.

------
jlees
I enjoyed the HN comments far more than the article itself...

For a while now I've been thinking I'd end up in SF or the Valley at some
point over the next few years. I can't say dating ratios ever crossed my mind
as a reason (not) to go. It doesn't exactly sound fun to be a woman in SF, so
I guess I'd better spend more than a couple of weeks there and find out before
I commit myself to meat markets and being a rarity...

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geebee
While it's tempting to refer to the "San Francisco Bay Area" as a single
cultural/economic entity, it really isn't. The male/female ratios will vary
considerably within this region, along with the economic base.

I read an article a while back (which I could remember the link) that pointed
out that as you move from south to north (ie., from southbay/San Jose to San
Francisco), you gradually move from engineering/hard science to software to UI
design to marketing/PR. There are major, substantial exceptions, of course,
but as a general trend, I think it holds true.

As you move from South to North on this continuum, the male/female ratio
changes substantially as well. Obviously, the PR, advertising, and design
firms in SF have a lot of women working at them. Law firms, especially the
ones that are not patent-law oriented, also have a lot of women - as
paralegals, secretaries, and lawyers. I'd also guess that there are more
fashion/interior decorating type firms in SF than in San Jose (it's not New
York, of course, but insofar as the Bay Area has an industry, it'll largely be
in SF). SF does have tech/software companies, though I've heard (I can't
support this, it's just conjecture) that they tend to be less hardcore tech
than the peninsula. The mission bay campus of UCSF may bring a lot of biotech
folks to SF - not sure how that will influence things.

I've lived in SF, LA, San Diego, and New York. Because I grew up in SF, I
don't have as good a sense of what it's like trying to "meet women", since I
already had a large social network from high school and so forth. New York was
the best (Manhattan) - girls would actually initiate conversations and give me
their phone number. LA has lots of beautiful women, and it's a pretty good
scene, but some (not all) women seemed to lose interest when they learned I
wasn't a part of the entertainment industry (well, I was doing software for
post production, but that counts as outside...)

San Diego was the absolute worst - the ratio of men to women was so high, and
the men were so aggressive, that the women seemed to almost shut down and go
into a shell. I learned something here - women don't seem to have as good a
time when the ratio gets too favorable for them. It's surprising, but it makes
sense. Women actually do like to pursue men, but if they're surrounded by a
3-1 ratio of men to women, and the men are very aggressive, they get hit on
ever five minutes by a guy who they aren't interested in, it becomes nearly
impossible to "make yourself available." Maybe they see a guy they'd like to
meet, but if they appear open to conversation, five other guys will pretty
much rush in right away. So they shut down and lose all interest in talking
with people, or just stop going out to those bars altogether.

Nobody likes a bad ratio, but I've actually found that men and women are
happiest closer to a 50-50 ratio.

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p_h
I've never lived in San Francisco, but it's no secret that tech centres like
Silicon Valley have very few women. Not only that, but based on these comments
it seems like most coders have given up on socializing with women! Surely this
must negatively affect the product development of applications meant for the
general public.

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anigbrowl
Complete garbage. I is not hard to find an attractive lady in SF for either a
date or a longer term relationship. Of course, it helps to be as sexy as I am.

Seriously, though, it's not that hard. I usually only hear this complaint from
guys who are looking to only date white women or suchlike Given that the city
is around 50% Asian these days, one might want to consider branching out. that
said, i've dated girls of every ethnicity within the last 15 years, though not
since I met the outstandingly lucky * Mrs Browl.

* What? She says she's happy about it. Most of the time.

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bitwize
Negative proof by counterexample. I met a girl in SF last month. Therefore,
"there are no girls in San Francisco" is false. QED.

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sutro
whytheauthorofwhytherearenogirlshasnogame.blogspot.com

