
Yale Students Demand Automatic 'Pass' Due to Covid-19 - mhb
https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2020/03/18/students-call-for-universal-pass/
======
Mountain_Skies
Good luck passing Calculus II if you were given a passing grade in Calculus I
without actually learning the material. There are plenty of other courses that
will run into the same problem if their prereqs aren't actually mastered.

~~~
philipov
My little brother is currently attending RIT and what they did is allow anyone
to take any course Pass-Fail. It's not an automatic pass, but it does mean it
won't screw over your GPA if events have impacted your ability to perform.

~~~
dbcurtis
MIT made all classes this semester effectively pass/fail. Makes sense to me.
It has been wrenching, with different impact depending on each student's
situation.

~~~
dillonmckay
Is that how freshman year is graded, regardless?

~~~
dbcurtis
First semester only.

------
whatshisface
In contrast and great irony, my local community college has announced that
they will go online and expect full completion as usual - and the students
have accepted it, because of course the academic culture at a white label
school for tradesmen and transfer students would be more rigorous, serious and
refined than the one at a national pride.

~~~
tengbretson
Of course! A community college is actually producing students that go on to
perform the jobs they are being credentialed for. Having incompetent graduates
would be a devastating blow to their reputation.

~~~
chrisco255
Yale bubble has just popped.

------
duxup
>According to Eileen Huang ’22, requiring undergraduates — many burdened by
sickness, hectic home lives or living thousands of miles away from the
University — to devote the same level of attention and focus to their classes
as they would in the Elm City seems unfair.

I think there is merit to this concern.

I don't know if passing automaticly is the right choice but experiences
durring these events can be quite wide ranging.

Just for me I find that some my neighbors complain they are bored. Me, my kids
are at home, I have to manage their schooling, I have to work, my wife needs
to work...and the youngest needs constant attention. I've never had less time
/ sleep.

Now students might not have kids but they too might have a great variety of
challenges other students / professors don't have.

~~~
dillonmckay
Some do.

Some would otherwise be homeless.

All walks of life attend college.

~~~
333c
To me that's the most compelling argument: equity. Some students come from a
background with very few resources and an unstable home environment, or no
home to speak of. These students shouldn't be at an academic disadvantage
because of a global pandemic.

~~~
dillonmckay
I mean, I agree, they shouldn’t, but the reality is, they are.

Now, what happens if this extends for multiple semesters?

Are all the Ivy schools going to PASS/FAIL online until graduation?

~~~
333c
I'm not trying to get into a lengthy discussion so I'll leave it after this
comment.

> the reality is, they are.

But Yale admins/faculty have the power to change that. Whether the change is
worth it (and what the best course of action is) is a matter for debate. But I
wouldn't say that the best course of action is to sit back and say "that's
just the reality of the situation" when we have a capability to effect change.

> Now, what happens if this extends for multiple semesters?

> Are all the Ivy schools going to PASS/FAIL online until graduation?

That's certainly not an ideal course of action, but (in my view) it may be
what the Ivies are forced to do.

------
mmhsieh
This will prepare them well for reality. Working adults, I am sure, will have
their demands for the continuation of their livelihoods fully met by their
employers, their landlords, and their mortgage providers.

~~~
rueynshard
Except a lot of governments have indeed enacted policies that protect tenants
and employees during this period.

~~~
viklove
Nothing is going to protect you from getting fired if you decide to just stop
doing your job after they ask you to WFH.

------
ebg13
So how does this compare to Harvard, where students expect an automatic A even
without Covid-19?

~~~
umvi
At least at HLS there's not such thing as an 'A'. You can get an F, LP, P, H,
or DS.

DS is not equivalent to an A. DS is insanely hard to get. The professor can
only give like 1 or 2 students in the entire class DS so you basically have to
be top gun to consistently get DS.

~~~
ebg13
Harvard College (the university's undergraduate arm) definitely gives As. Law
schools are vocational programs. I'm not surprised it works differently there.

------
333c
Students at my college did this too. Just about half of the student body
signed the petition. Ultimately the faculty board that makes decisions about
grading modes refused to enact this.

------
downerending
Hard to know what's right, under the circumstances. At the same time, it seems
like their degrees should have an asterisk, to be fair to full graduates.

~~~
duxup
I'm not sure an asterisk really tells anyone about the critical thing....do
they know this stuff? Can they do the job?

~~~
downerending
A degree attests to what one _has_ done, not what one _can_ do.

------
olliej
How would this make sense? The degree and course grade indicates understanding
the material and knowledge of your major. If you haven't been able to learn
the material you shouldn't get a degree or grade that indicates otherwise.

If they believe that the quality of education has reduced they should demand a
refund, or they can drop the courses they can't handle so that they don't
impact their GPA, and retake them once it's easier again.

------
rch
ETH is continuing online and limiting the downside risk of the next set of
exams. That seems like a better approach to me.

~~~
O_H_E
Quite similar in Waterloo. They also added a petition process for those who
fail with special circumstances going on.

For those who don't know, both are top-level schools in Switzerland and
Canada.

------
ziari
Before we jump to conclusions...

Undergraduates were forced off campus a few weeks ago.

Imagine yourself in the shoes of an international student who left New Haven
in a hurry. You're now required to attend online lectures at 3:00AM local
time. Five nights a week.

You don't have a reliable internet connection in your country. You lost your
job when you left campus. You're missing out on office hours. You can't
collaborate with classmates in the United States. You need to take care of at-
risk relatives at home. You're in a state of heightened anxiety during a lock-
down. Don't even think about taking a nap! Your next discussion seminar (with
mandatory attendance) is in fifteen minutes... at 4:30AM!

Now, is it really so unreasonable to ask the administration to relieve some of
this pressure? We should empower students to seek knowledge without
sacrificing their health and family obligations.

~~~
viklove
Relieve pressure, sure. Free pass? What? I mean they still need to do the
coursework. The school should refund their tuition and room/board, and allow
them to complete the semester later.

~~~
ziari
Pass/fail grades are not factored into GPA calculations at Yale anyways. The
idea behind a "universal pass" system is that it completely eliminates grades
for the semester without leaving that section of the transcript empty. It's
more akin to a participation trophy than an unmerited gold medal.

------
krupan
I know some BYU students and they were given the option to see their letter
grade and decide whether to take the letter grade or a pass/fail for each
class. D or F converts to fail, anything else is a pass. Neither changes your
GPA.

------
distantlyaway
I wouldn't want my doctor to be someone who got an auto pass on his/her exams.

~~~
mcquade
Exactly. Standards cannot be lowered everywhere. If you don’t have the
knowledge to pass your examinations then take additional time to achieve
proficiency.

------
dillonmckay
or refund the tuition for the semester?

------
alpineidyll3
File under: Universities are silly places.

------
finolex1
For context, MIT, Harvard and Stanford have all instituted mandatory pass-fail
grading policies (in practice, this amounts virtually amounts to a guaranteed
pass as well).

~~~
rueynshard
Columbia, UC Berkeley and Dartmouth too. I think this move is gaining
traction.

------
hackandtrip
A lot of Italian universities took a week to rearrange their complete offering
with online courses, allowing full theory + practice + projects lesson in
virtual mode - exams solutions are being studied and pass/fail is out of the
discussion.

If low-funded Italian universities can do it, I wonder what's stopping the
best universities like Yale with enormous quantity of money to do the same.

------
chrisco255
Your Yale degree isn't going to mean anything in the 21st century. Everything
that can be learned there can be learned on YouTube for free.

~~~
hackandtrip
How can you be tested and kept accountable for what you are learning using
YouTube?

How accurate is the information that non-expert can fetch?

~~~
chrisco255
Same way people do now without degrees? Screening in phases. Live interview or
video interview. You can actually tell a decent amount about a candidate over
the course of a few hours if you ask right questions.

------
xupybd
Perhaps they need to learn the life lesson that bad things happen. Sometimes
it's really bad, really unfair. But you can always make the best of it.

It'll be harder for them than others but they can demonstrate an ability to
overcome and achieve during hard times. That'll be a huge personal confidence
booster for future hard times.

------
einpoklum
1\. It's _some_ students demand automatic pass.

2\. What students actually need IMHO is no tuition for this semester, and the
opportunity for a do-over next semester (if the crisis is over by then). But
that's more difficult to demand, so these people go for an easier, and lamer,
alternative.

------
taylodl
I had a professor who once quipped "education is the only product for which
the consumer demands less than what they paid." The diploma is worthless
without the knowledge that goes with it.

------
paulie_a
They paid for a service and did not receive it. Many have even been kicked out
of housing. Sounds like one party broke the contract regarding tuition.

Pass or not it really makes no difference. College degrees are losing
prestigiousness so who cares.

In five years post graduation it really means little. You don't go to college
to learn you go there for the degree to get into that first door.

~~~
viklove
We truly live in such amazing times, where the principle of the transaction is
more important than the achieved competency. This isn't Walmart, it's an
education system. If they're not getting educated, the degree is completely
meaningless.

~~~
mcquade
Exceptions set dangerous precedents.

