
Prison Without Punishment - hecubus
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/09/25/prison-without-punishment
======
cubano
I violated 3 years felony probation late last year here in Florida and was
picked up on the warrant on May 18th.

The original charges were possession charges from about 5 years ago, and I
only had 6 months to go when I was violated for working out-of-county (I had
to go where the contract was). It was a simple "technical" violation so I
figured I would be ok.

I was not. I was sentenced to 15 months _in prison_ for some reason that no
one could explain. I didn't even "score" prison time, yet my crap public
defender just sacrificed me to the state prosecutors.

Thank goodness I had 13 months credit time served, so I only had to do like 51
days "up the road". Florida D.O.C decided to make it hard on me for whatever
reason, and sent me back to Gulf C.I. Annex in the panhandle, some 9 hours
from my home.

I was first assigned to a "T-dorm" where approx 80% of my fellow inmates were
serving life sentences. Yes, you heard correctly...they made me, with my
little 51 days, live in that particularly dangerous environment.

Needless to say, I avoided talking about my release date.

There are absolutely no programs at Gulf C.I. I am 100% convinced that the
entire system is designed to _create_ recidivism, not prevent it. The C.O's
smuggled in K2 and it seemed everyone was smoking that shit constantly.

It was easier to get drugs then it was to get a book to read.

I was released on the 7th with no phone, money, and prison issued clothes. I
had to stay in shelters for 2 nights until I finally made it back to central
Florida.

I am in the process of writing a blog post about the entire incredible
experience, but the tl;dr version of it is that the system is a sledge hammer
and every problem is a block of concrete to be smashed to dust and swept away.

~~~
code_sterling
Just curious, possession of what? And how much?

~~~
cubano
Possession of heroin, Possession of over 20g of weed...both felonies.

You can read my previous posts about it. I'm just glad it's all finally over
and I'm free to move and work as I need.

~~~
code_sterling
That's ridiculous. I hope we smarten up as a society soon.

------
linuxhansl
German here, living in the US (and liking it here in the US).

I can confirm that generally there is a different viewpoint. In Germany prison
is somewhat of the last resort mostly to be avoided, and even then the aspect
of rehabilitation (and deterrence) is most important.

In the US I find there's often a notion of revenge, as in "This person must
suffer for what for (s)he did!"; and more severe sentences usually to be
considered as "more justice".

Edit: Some spelling for clarity

~~~
trhway
>In the US I find there's often a notion of revenge

US is puritans. Revenge is one of the cornerstones of the puritan moral.

~~~
larsiusprime
That's as simplistic as saying Australia is a bunch of criminals.

The USA spans a huge continent which was settled by a huge number of very
different groups all with different moral and philosophical foundations.

~~~
trhway
No. There is no national party in Australia with a base consisting mainly of
criminals. Whereis the US Republican party's base display all the worst
characteristics of puritanism, including their "holier than thou" main driving
attitude which directly feeds their views on crime and punishment.

~~~
Thriptic
I can't speak to Republicans' ideas of crime and punishment, but I will say
that the US is a place which encourages and fosters individualism strongly as
opposed to collectivism (right term?). In a more collectivist / society
focused model as you might find in Europe, it makes sense that the focus of
prison would be rehabilitation and programs focused on improving the greater
good. In a model emphasizing individualism, it makes sense that the focus of
prison would be punishment: The offender made certain choices as an individual
and has harmed the victim's ability to operate as an individual. The victim
therefore has the right to seek justice.

~~~
trhway
while it sounds logical, the counter-example would be Russia. It has a very
collectivist, hive, mentality - completely opposite to US, yet the same focus
on punishment (in hellish prisons) instead of rehabilitation. The common
though is the "you've sinned -> go to hell" religion. The countries like
German are much more secular (as of today), and that naturally results in more
humane society, including the criminal punishment policies.

It is also noticeable in social economical policies - the approach "you're
poor because you're a lazy bum" can be seen as a form of punishment which is a
natural view in the US (especially to the religious part of the society) while
obviously less so for Germany. Note that such "punishment" is not explicitly
inflicted by people, instead it viewed along the lines like "God loves hard
working good people (and hates the opposite ones)".

------
d357r0y3r
Could it work? Of course, the data is abundantly clear here. If you treat
prisoners like shit, then their chances of recidivism are much higher. If you
want to reduce crime, then you have to treat prisoners well. There's really
very little controversy here from an academic perspective.

The barrier is cultural. The public in the U.S., by and large, expects
prisoners to be punished harshly. Retribution and deterrence rank way higher
than rehabilitation in terms of the desired outcome of incarceration. As far
as the average American is concerned, anything that happens inside of the
prison walls, including but not limited to rape, murder, torture, is the price
you pay for breaking the law.

If we want to have better prisons, then we'll need people to develop some
degree of empathy for prisoners, and that's a tough battle in the U.S.

~~~
ams6110
_If you want to reduce crime, then you have to treat prisoners well._

There are no prisoners without there first being criminals.

~~~
fleitz
Nelson Mandela, Allan Turing, and Oscar Wilde might disagree with you on that.

To be fair on Mandela the modern US stance is that he should have been
assassinated, rather than imprisoned.

[https://wikileaks.org/cia-hvt-counterinsurgency/press-
releas...](https://wikileaks.org/cia-hvt-counterinsurgency/press-release.html)

~~~
srtjstjsj
Mandela was at war with the govt of SA, so that's a complicated case.

~~~
fleitz
He was imprisoned for inciting workers' strikes and leaving the country
without permission... it doesn't seem that complicated to me... His charges of
overthrowing the government were so baseless they had to be thrown out.

------
jit_hacker
There are no absolutes when it comes to criminal punishment. There is always
an exception to everything.

That said, I've long thought if you stop treating people like animals, they'll
stop acting like it. I've never studied prisons, or psychology, or anything
remotely related. But I genuinely believe this philosophy is investigating.

~~~
dethstar
Well there's countries like Norways which make prison look like vacations to
people in countries with less resources (except the not going out whenever you
please of course)

Foucault argued that the point of prison is to create more crime though.

~~~
rdtsc
> Foucault argued that the point of prison is to create more crime though.

Add profits generated by the prison industrial complex and it actually starts
making real economic sense to keep them coming back.

------
rokhayakebe
Note that in the US, prison is a multibillion dollar industry. It cost around
$30,000 (on the low end) to incarcerate someone yearly. Even if they spend a
day or two, someone is making money. Nothing to be said of the calling
minutes. All in all this may be a $50-$100B industry in the US.

That is not going anyway.

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
When I first read your comment it immediately brought to mind privately run
prisons, but after a few moments though I realised you're comment calls
attention to the ongoing wealth transfer from the general tax-payer to the
prison associated workforce, who then go on to spend that money in the general
economy. Prison generates economic activity, which generates tax revenue.
Governments have a vested interest in increasing tax revenue.

~~~
kiba
Digging holes generate tax revenue as well.

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
That's what the highway department is for.

------
jorde
We have pretty relaxed prison system in Finland as well and it seems to be
working pretty well[1]. They doesn't have the stigma as it does here the US
and actually my sister lives next to a closed prison with her small kids and
it's a no biggie.

[1]
[http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/09/why...](http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/09/why-
scandinavian-prisons-are-superior/279949/)

~~~
megablast
Difficult to compare the two, when Finland has a very homogeneous culture, and
is tiny.

~~~
jellicle
I often see this given as an excuse for the U.S.'s prison system, but it seems
a sort of non-sequitur along the lines of "difficult to compare the two,
because Finland is named Finland".

Is it just a codeword for the sentiment that the U.S. has black people, and
they're inherently evil, so cannot be rehabilitated or treated nicely like
Finland? That seems to be the only explanation that fits. If that's what you
think, why not say it?

If that isn't what you meant, maybe you can explain further. For instance, you
could try to finish these sentences:

"The USA is a larger, richer, country, and therefore it cannot build a prison
facility that holds 300 people and is rehabilitative rather than punitive
because......"

or for homogeneity:

"The USA has a somewhat more diverse population than Finland, and therefore it
cannot build a prison facility that holds 300 people and is rehabilitative
rather than punitive because......"

I'm curious to see what the explanation is. It certainly isn't anything
obvious to me.

------
clamprecht
In prison (US federal), when a guard was a dick to inmates, our saying was
"We're here AS punishment, not FOR punishment".

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Confusion
The title derives from a single quote of someone that claims prisoners in
Germany are not put in prison as punishment, but only to protect the public.
But that is simply not true: punishment most certainly is a goal of accusers
and most prisoners certainly feel punished by being locked up, so that goal is
at least partially achieved. The major difference is that the government does
not consider it the main goal and other goals, such as rehabilitation, are
given more weight than in the US.

~~~
rbehrends
The claim is entirely true (§2 StVollzG [1]), but you may be misunderstanding
something here. The rehabilitation of offenders and the protection of the
public are indeed the sole two permissible objectives of incarceration in
Germany. But there is a difference between (1) the imposition of prison
sentences and (2) how they are being carried out. Judges may take other
factors into account to determine the severity of a sentence, but once
imposed, rehabilitation of offenders and protection of the public are the only
two goals that the process of carrying out the sentence may serve.

[1] [http://www.gesetze-im-
internet.de/englisch_stvollzg/englisch...](http://www.gesetze-im-
internet.de/englisch_stvollzg/englisch_stvollzg.html#p0013) (and yes, the
translation of the section title is ... imperfect).

~~~
Confusion
Punishment is not an official goal of the government. Nevertheless, in
practice it certainly is a goal, as required by the people the government
represents.

Punishment is a goal of many victims and of people who believe punishment
discourages crime. When the perpetrator is brought to justice, the victims-
turned-accusers will demand punishment. It is the goal of the government to
represent their interests. It partially does this by setting up the prison
system as it is and imposing prison sentences.

If dealing out punishment, as wished by the victims, was not an indirect goal
contributing to the way things are, prisons would be more comfortable. The
circumstances in prisons, their austerity and severity, cannot be explained
except by wanting to punish the people in there. They are not optimally suited
for only rehabilitation and protection of the public.

This is of course entirely understandable.

------
hwstar
I think the treatment of prisoners in the US is a big part of the problem.
European countries don't force prisoners to wear orange prison uniforms, or
transport them in waist chains and leg irons.

Sometimes respect and dignity for the prisoners by the prison authorities can
go a long way towards reforming the prisoner.

------
Overtonwindow
Sounds like a good idea to me. In America, we do too much imprisonment, and
not enough rehabilitation. I understand has a lot to do with costs and
politics, but I really think we should stop warehousing people for years and
years, with no rehabilitation.

------
scrapcode
In the Federal system inmates work towards something similar through their
behavior. Look up Federal Prison Camps.

~~~
wanderingstan
As someone who was just visiting a prison today, I can assure you that prison
camps are _nothing_ like this. Just a glorified version of home ankle
monitoring. No psychologically training. No saving money.

Read the description by the CEO of y-combinator's Pigeonly. They look for any
possible infraction to send you back to prison. He had to illegally keep a
cell phone in order to found his business.

