
Germany eyes a four-day week to help prevent mass layoffs - rustoo
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/08/germany-four-day-week-industry-covid-19/
======
cycomanic
Economists (Keynes and others) in at the beginning of the 20th century
projected that based on increasing productivity we would only be working about
15h a week by now. They actually did predict that this could become a
significant problem, because many people need work for their personal
fulfillment.

Now the productivity gains actually did happen, however what the economists
didn't predict is that all the gains went to only benefit very few
(essentially the holders of capital) and inequality would increase
significantly preventing most people to reduce their work hours even if they
wanted.

~~~
Fannon
However, people also want to spend more money and have more things / higher
standard of living than people had at that time.

I'm curious if you would adjust your own standard of living accordingly, you
could finance it with a 15h workweek just fine. But this for sure does not
apply to low wage jobs.

While inequality is now clearly on the rise (and it's a big problem), afaik
there also have been times in history when it was consistently higher.
[https://ourworldindata.org/income-
inequality](https://ourworldindata.org/income-inequality) seems to have some
good charts and context here.

~~~
Spartan-S63
Well, so this kind of thinking is really part of the problem. The number of
hours you put into something should never matter. What matters is the value of
the productivity. We should be getting paid on the marginal value of our
labor, not the minimum we're willing to bear. In addition, if the job can get
done in 15 hours, then we should get paid the same, regardless. It's the
conflation of hours to productivity that's destructive in this conversation.
They're not the same, and a reduction in the work week should not be a salary-
reducing event.

~~~
colejohnson66
Isn’t that one of the points of a salaried job versus hourly? You’re paid the
same regardless of how long it takes you. Many companies sometimes don’t care
if it takes you 5 or 10 hours to do the task as long as it’s done by the
deadline.

~~~
Spartan-S63
It totally is, but companies don’t treat it that way. Most expect you to work
at least 40 hours at all times, especially in office situations, and if you
have to work overtime, that’s on you. So, company’s are having their cake and
eating it to, while salaried folks are more likely to be abused by employers.

------
DoreenMichele
I've seen studies that indicate that reducing the work week can improve
productivity per hour. It can be a net gain, allowing people to be more
focused, make fewer mistakes, etc.

Sort of like when you pay people a bit better than average for the industry,
thereby fostering improved employee retention and lower turnover. It pays for
itself over time and has additional benefits down the line.

This seems like a good idea to me. The 40 hour work week grew out of
technology improving productivity such that some people were making good money
and then there was higher unemployment to go with that. It was intended to
share the wealth, primarily. Now we look back on normal working conditions
prior to that and deem them to be inhumane.

~~~
gridlockd
Henry Ford introduced the 40hr work week in 1926, for productivity reasons.

That is likely already close to the sweet spot, at least for automotive
workers.

~~~
DoreenMichele
I did write a reply and then HN wasn't responding, so that's here:

[https://butterflyeconomy.blogspot.com/2020/08/shorter-
work-w...](https://butterflyeconomy.blogspot.com/2020/08/shorter-work-weeks-
may-be-necessary.html)

~~~
gridlockd
Personally, I am a big fan of the four day work week, I just do not believe it
will maintain productivity levels. I would sooner believe a six hour five day
week would.

~~~
DoreenMichele
My guess is that probably falls under "different strokes for different folks."

Some people really, really like having a regular three-day weekend and will do
just fine getting in their hours in four days. Others may well prefer a five
day week with fewer hours per day.

If we could cut hours and give people choices as to how to allocate them, more
people might get on board with the idea.

------
_nalply
The weekly numbers on the map are off. In Switzerland a full-time job is
usually 40 to 42 hours a week. Some professions work much longer. 48 hours a
week is not extraordinary.

Probably they took the average of all employments. Because many people have a
part-time job the average is pushed down. This makes the numbers less useful.

~~~
s9w
Full-time job in Germany is also usually that long. But it's an average, not a
median.

~~~
yokaze
Which shows how inadequate the statistic is for the discussion of the subject.
The reduction of working hours applies only to a subset of work (industry
full-time employment).

I would bet the average is so low because of a large part of low paying part-
time jobs, which are heavily subventioned / pay no or low social security &
taxes, saved likely also the disincentivation of pmarried mothers working full
time (not by law, but in effect).

~~~
em-bee
full-time work is 35 hours.

from the article: _In 2018, it won workers the right to reduce their working
week from 35 hours to 28 for two years to increase flexibility, particularly
for workers with caring responsibilities._

this is not talking about averages, but about full-time work hours.

~~~
yokaze
It starts right with:

> At 34.2 hours, Germany already has one of the shortest average working weeks
> in Europe. And there are loud voices calling for it to be shorter still.

And then the "graphic of usual hours of work of employees", and then goes on
with 35h per week (in the metal working industry).

As others pointed out, 40h per week is quite often the standard, the lower
average cited right in the beginning can be explained differently, than large
parts of the population enjoying a relaxed safe full-time employment with less
than 40h per week, which is kind of implied by the setup of the article.

~~~
em-bee
but in germany 35 hours IS the standard (not just in the metal industry) . if
34.5 is the average, then that's not far from the standard. so the claim that
part time work influences the measured average does not really fit.

~~~
yokaze
Then you better correct the Wikipedia page listing the nominal working hours
most of them exceeding the 35h
([https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wochenarbeitszeit](https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wochenarbeitszeit)),
and I and the people further up in the thread have to sue our former /current
employers, which contracted us with 40h/week.

~~~
em-bee
all those entries list the hours in specific industries. what we can't tell
from that table is how many jobs that actually covers.

ig-metall is the largest union representing about 2/5 of all unionized
employees in germany. keep in mind that in most cases a union agreement is
applied to all employees, not just the union members, so many more jobs than
union members are affected.

that said, there is likely something wrong with that 34.5 average because i
found other articles claiming an average of 37.5 and yet another of 41 hours.

while i still believe that the 35 hour week has a large impact on the result,
it is less large than i thought.

~~~
yokaze
> ig-metall is the largest union representing about 2/5 of all unionized
> employees in germany. keep in mind that in most cases a union agreement is
> applied to all employees, not just the union members, so many more jobs than
> union members are affected.

Yes, but those union agreements are per industry and/or company, depending if
there is an industry agreement or not. That's why the hours are listed per
industry.

And they only apply to non-members, if the union has the mandate to negotiate
on behalf of all workers, e.g. there is not another competing union with a
sizable membership (not sure about the exact criteria).

I worked at SAP, and ig-metall is a union there (not the only one). Different
industry, no industry-wide union agreements. Ergo 40h per week. This is also
the default by law, if the exact hours are not defined.

------
nhkcode
In many jobs you can easily work 4 or less days a week in germany because
there is a law that gives you the right to part time work. Obviously your wage
is reduced accordingly.

~~~
yokaze
Define easily. I bet, that while the law is there, the practice is quite
different. There is still social pressure.

I bet, you won't see much part-time work in many fields and professions.

~~~
papaf
_Define easily._

My colleague had a baby. He would like to spend more time with the baby. He
asked to reduce his hours. The boss said yes because its the law and we no
longer live in the middle ages.

~~~
harpratap
How does promotion work in that case? From what I've seen going part-time is
essentially hitting a pause on your career goals, it's not sustainable for
medium-long term.

~~~
nhkcode
It probably is a dead end promotion wise. But my impression is that there
isn't much of a chance for promotions in most jobs here anyway. If you are
trained in some craft in the vocational education system you get a job and do
that job basically forever. Most common way to get higher up in that situation
seems to be getting more formal education, either by becoming Master craftsmen
(Meister) or by getting a college degree. Germany is very finicky about formal
degrees. If you already have a college degree things might be different. Still
it seems to me that in those cases your best chances to climb the ladder is to
switch jobs from time to time. So if you realize there are no promotion for
you in stock, or that you have to switch jobs anyway to progress your career,
working part time is very much sustainable in the long run. Also if you are
lacking the formal education to achieve your career goals you could start
working part to have more time to get your degree while working.

------
lnsru
I recently had to end working 32 hours on 4 days. I don’t think, that people
sitting in the office 35 hours on 5 days are somehow more productive. But
Germany has another huge problem having whole industry building obsolete
diesel cars, when world goes electric. These working hour discussions are a
tip of an iceberg. The real question where to put hundred thousands of workers
and engineers what aren’t needed for electric cars.

~~~
gridlockd
The world is not going electric, urban dwellers are.

Every german car maker has an electric car shipping.

They know the market better than you.

~~~
zelphirkalt
And yet they acted soooo late, that they are far behind now, due to
capitalistic resistance to change (short term costly) and risk (management not
being technical and scientific enough to see the future is electric). Seems
they are not so wise after all.

~~~
gridlockd
Are they really? To date, both Volkswagon and BMW outsold Tesla in Europe,
which might have something to do with being able to ship cars on schedule.

------
tyteen4a03
Well they can start by not punishing us with higher tax rates just for
receiving short-time work benefits: [https://www.thelocal.de/20200720/why-
people-on-kurzarbeit-ne...](https://www.thelocal.de/20200720/why-people-on-
kurzarbeit-need-to-prepare-for-a-tax-surprise)

------
bigmattystyles
Didn’t France try this or propose this years ago? Isn’t the problem that you
would create more overhead due to the additional hires, in addition to having
to train more people. I can think of a ton more issues. It could of course be
better than the alternative.

~~~
ehmish
Yeah I mean the alternative is taxing the 5-day-a-week workers and
transferring the money to unemployed people, who while out of work have their
skills languish. 4 day a week work-weeks seem like quite a cost-effective
crisis response for working around a sheer shortage of jobs.

~~~
euru3he3fgh
If people want to work five days a week it's probably because they need the
money and if there's enough of them to displace other workgroups then why is
the party that wants to work harder being penalized? It seems bizarrely
European to feel like it's unfair to let people decide how much they want to
work.

~~~
cam_l
> it's unfair to let people decide how much they want to work.

Why is this confined to only the people already working?

~~~
luckylion
I believe there's a large difference between not interfering with someone's
choices, and the idea of compelling others to accommodate anyone's choice.

That is: if I have the opportunity & desire to work on something, you
shouldn't interfere with it. But me having the desire to work on something
shouldn't require you go provide the opportunity.

~~~
cam_l
A belief is not a very compelling argument. Frankly, in the context of a job
market I see both as interference.

But whatever our beliefs, we already have sets of rules, legal and social,
which limit people's choices in the job market. The ability to hire people is
a privilege which comes with responsibilities, part of which is a
responsibility to society. This is why developed countries have minimum wages.

Now as to what extent or whether at all, you can place limitations on
employers without placing limitations on employees, now that is an argument
worth exploring.

------
aaron695
> Hofmann says pay should not be reduced in line with hours though

It was a good idea until there.

Why not just get the money off the money tree and pay the unemployed an
unemployment wage.

~~~
morsch
More specifically he said "employees should not necessarily see their salary
cut _by the same amount_ ". It's salary negotiation, it's not unusual to go
into those with a high initial ask.

