
State Department Demands 3-D Gun Blueprints Be Removed - ktavera
http://techcrunch.com/2013/05/09/state-department-demands-3-d-gun-blueprints-be-removed/
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steve19
It is not that they don't understand how the internet works, but legally you
cannot export blueprints about weapons without an export license. The State
Department is absolutely correct. Blueprints of weapons cannot be exported.
Everyone in the firearm/defense industry knows this.

The ITAR rules are even worse for some types of equipment. For example it is a
felony to allow a foreigners (non-citizens or non-green card holders) to _look
through_ high-end (Gen III) night vision equipment. Guns shops all over the
country unwittingly violate this rule every day. Technical discussions of
night vision equipment on a forums accessible from foreigners is also illegal.

Edit: Also worth pointing out that those model files are also being hosted on
GitHub [0]

[0] <https://github.com/maduce/defcad-repo>

~~~
glenra
> legally you cannot export blueprints about weapons without an export
> license.

Wow. That seems incredibly stupid. How did this manage to survive first
amendment challenges? Or has it not been tested?

~~~
nness
My knowledge is quite basic on the subject, but how would this be a first
amendment issue?

~~~
ctdonath
Nobody doubts the shutdown is to prevent citizens from seeing the files, not
foreigners. Ergo, censorship.

~~~
hawleyal
It's censorship either way.

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jlgreco
From what I have read of Cody, this is _exactly_ the sort of reaction he was
hoping to receive.

Perhaps he should have had the CAD file printed and bound as a book...

Edit: Nevermind, he's already ahead of me: _"Wilson argues his activities are
legit, because ITAR doesn’t apply to information sold in a library, and
conveniently has his being sold in an undisclosed Austin, Texas, bookstore."_

~~~
tantalor
<http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/offdocs/itar/p120.htm#P120>

Let's break it down,

ITAR defines export as transferring an article or technical data (§ 120.7).

Technical data, by definition, is not in the public domain (§ 120.10.5).

DEFCAD claims the files are in the public domain, i.e., available in
bookstores (§ 120.11.1) and libraries open to the public (§ 120.11.4). So they
cannot qualify as technical data to satisfy the export requirement.

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sargun
I would like them to see the Streisand Effect:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect>

By issuing a takedown notice to the maintainer of the blueprint, it's very
unlikely that they're going to stop the flow of information. Additionally, it
turns out it's probably not effective to stop them from distributing the
blueprints now that they're already on the internet.

We're probably not going to see a massive number of these come into existence
because the printers aren't exactly a commodity yet. I imagine the people who
own these printers, and the printing services will notice what's being
printed, and that's probably the best place to control these.

~~~
pacaro
I see your Streisand and raise you one Darknet...

"The idea of the darknet is based upon three assumptions:

1) Any widely distributed object will be available to a fraction of users in a
form that permits copying.

2) Users will copy objects if it is possible and interesting to do so.

3) Users are connected by high-bandwidth channels.

The darknet is the distribution network that emerges from the injection of
objects according to assumption 1 and the distribution of those objects
according to assumptions 2 and 3."

See "The Darknet and the Future of Content Distribution" -
<http://msl1.mit.edu/ESD10/docs/darknet5.pdf>

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swamp40
3D guns are 99% useless, but 101% provocative in the current political
environment.

There are 350 million real, fully functional, STEEL barreled firearms in the
US today.

The epitome of 750 years of tweaks and improvements.

SURELY one of those would be easier to obtain (and safer to fire)if you wanted
a gun.

~~~
chris_mahan
If the gun is a one-shot gun, could the gun not include a bullet also, as well
as a receptacle for gunpowder? Could a 100% plastic gun with plastic bullet be
lethal up close? Could one place the gunpowder during printing and seal it?
Could the gunpowder be ignited by static electricity for firing the gun?
Answer these questions and metal detectors become useless.

~~~
nsxwolf
There is the possibility of manufacturing caseless ammo.

An exotic replacement for the firing pin isn't strictly necessary. A firing
pin is too small to activate a metal detector. At least, the government thinks
so, because guns are required to contain a minimum amount of metal for this
purpose.

The current stories are neglecting to mention this, but an earlier Forbes
article reported that the Liberator contains a 6 ounce piece of steel to
remain compliant with the law on undetectable firearms.

~~~
chris_mahan
this assumes the law in the US, but there are many other countries, assuming
one would want to stay within the law as well.

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iterion1
So, this attracts the ire of the state department. Yet, something like this
(<http://aresarmor.com/store/Item/TACMHL15>) is actually approved by the ATF
as not being a firearm. You just need some basic machining skills (thanks MIT
OpenCourseWare) and access to basic tools (thanks local hackerspace) to have a
fully operational AR-15 which does not need to be registered.

Seriously?

~~~
msandford
Why should the law make sense? It's a bunch of arbitrary rules put in place
via largely reactionary pressure.

If you don't refactor code occasionally you end up with weird corner cases
that don't make any sense. The laws of our nation haven't been refactored in
any substantial way, ever. It's patches all the way down to the Constitution.

~~~
ahallock
Exactly. And that's the point and design. With a convoluted system in place,
seemingly peaceful activities can land you in prison, or bankrupt you with
legal fees. I only see the entropy accelerating.

~~~
msandford
Yep and it'll destroy the American empire.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Tainter#Social_complexit...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Tainter#Social_complexity)

------
ics
Who'da thunk it, the Pirate Bay now has a Physibles category! Can anyone guess
which files are currently trending?

<https://thepiratebay.sx/search/defcad/0/99/0>

~~~
AdamTReineke
Would a US citizen seeding this file to a foreign peer potentially violate
export rules and be at risk of major legal trouble if the US gov went down
that road?

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adastra
Absolutely yes this is a risk. Do not do this. The International Traffic in
Arms Regulations (ITAR) is not something you want to mess with.

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angersock
Yeah, no idea why you're being downvoted--you make a fair point.

Like, this is annoying, but all of the secondary actors seeding and whatnot
here are provably and knowingly infringing on ITAR.

I don't agree with what's being done by the .gov here, and I don't think it's
a good thing, but especially given how we see the courts behave and how we see
the confrontational system run, I must remind our overzealous peers here who
wish to antagonize the .gov:

 _Do not taunt happy fun ball._

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mindcrime
Dear State Department:

How well has trying to remove content from the Internet worked out for you in
past?

Also: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect>

Thanks,

Mindcrime

~~~
fixxer
jinx!

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mbillie1
While I'm not super excited about people printing 3D guns, it seems like it's
probably still cheaper to buy an illegal gun than it is to buy a 3D printer
with the material to print a functioning firearm (last I checked 3D printers
were still ~$500+; and even legal guns can be as cheap as ~$100)... I'm not
sure that this publicized letter helps the situation any. There is the
interesting topic of "gun legislation" as well... once any individual can
manufacture Thing X, how do you (or do you?) legislate control of it?

It would be great if the first major, widespread, TPB-distributed 3D printed-
thing was something less controversial, but such is life. There are people in
jail for "hacking" and a huge variety of other issues, while one can
apparently print guns without any legal ramifications. I am not saying that
one is better or worse than the other - just drawing attention to how poor our
legislative process is when it comes to handling _any_ technological advances
whatsoever.

~~~
derefr
The question might be more about _marginal cost_. What would it cost a militia
to outfit themselves with a thousand illegal guns, versus the material and
power to print a thousand guns? If printing is cheaper, how much more likely
does this make the creation of militias?

~~~
mbillie1
I would much rather there be no 3D-gun-printing situation... but I'm not sure
that I'm too concerned about militias, albeit only given the current state of
3D printers. There's a weird race between the capacity to manufacture anything
at any time, and the ability to harvest sufficient energy to make the former
not-so-important... and the former is in front right now. That is for sure a
kind of scary thought. Plastic-gun-toting militias are probably not a big deal
right now, but yeah... what if 3D metal printers become as prevalent as mobile
phones? Hopefully some balancing technology will have also become so
prevalent. If not, there are companies that make amazing tents, and there are
lots of mountains and woods... :)

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ChuckMcM
Of course the short hairs here are that Cody has an FFL and they can revoke
that in a heartbeat for pretty much any reason. Way back in the cypherpunk
days (when 'strong' crypto was a weapon) there was a thought experiment to
have someone cross into the US illegally, then tattoo on their skin the code
that implemented the RSA algorithm, and then turn themselves in to be
deported, thus inducing a violation by the INS. I don't think it went
anywhere, the other idea was a billboard in the US with the code on it you
could read while standing in Mexico (this would work for Canada as well).

But poking fun aside, much of the same issues that arose with that effort are
in this new 'threat'. The key here is the 3D printer, next up they will be a
restricted export item like really nice machine tools.

~~~
glenra
Nowadays you could paint the algorithm on the side of a wall near a road and
wait for Google streetview to pick it up or paint it really big on a paved
area and wait for Google Earth to pick it up.

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sage_joch
This is the beginning of a much longer roller coaster. It opens the door to a
public demand for more surveillance, and debate over what kinds of data are
allowed to exist.

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dillona
It would be easy enough to set up a server to block non-US IPs.

Would that be sufficient to get around ITAR? I wonder what would happen then

~~~
colechristensen
No. There are plenty of Non-US Persons (people without greencards or
citizenship) in the U.S. and IP is not adequate identification anyway.

~~~
rkuykendall-com
You're right. Luckily, the porn industry already has this covered.

    
    
        ARE YOU A US CITIZEN?
    
        [YES] [NO]

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giardini
Why would anyone respond to a request from the State Department to remove
plans for a 3-D gun? What jurisdictional claim and standing does SD have here?
I see none.

And this is an old technology firearm created with a new technology printing
device. Plans for firearms are all over the internet. What makes this one fall
under SD rule?

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leephillips
I will be lazy and ask here instead of looking it up: Is the barrel 3D-printed
too? Out of what material? I'm having trouble accepting the idea that a
3D-printed barrel can withstand the pressure of firing normal ammunition.

~~~
olympus
Yup, barrel is printed as well. Entire gun is ABS plastic, which sounds absurd
until you realize that it's only a .22 being fired through it, and it's only
intended to be used for one shot. This round is so weak that it's explosive
charge is comparable to the primer charge on other rounds.

Only two things aren't printed, the firing pin (which is a nail), and an
additional hunk of metal that goes in it so it will be detectable with a metal
detector (there are other laws against "stealth" weapons that have no metal in
them).

~~~
steve-howard
I was going to say, I think the last place I read about plastic firearms was
in a Robert Ludlum novel (spy-thriller type stuff). Though if the "additional
hunk of metal" is optional and included for plausible legality, I can see
there being some political blowback regardless.

~~~
olympus
Yeah, If you have any experience with creating your own 3D CAD files for
printing it would be trivial to go into files yourself and fill in the void
for the metal. I doubt it would have a significant impact on the gun's
performance. While I can't see this particular model being used as as spy
weapon, the potential is certainly there as the technology improves.

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GigabyteCoin
In other news, the State Department has absolutely no idea how the internet
works.

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salman89
This is an issue of disruption that can cause a large, politically entrenched
gun market to fail being disguised as a gun control issue.

What steps need to be taken so that we can legally possess a 3D printed gun?

~~~
maratd
> What steps need to be taken so that we can legally possess a 3D printed gun?

None. It's perfectly legal in all states at the moment.

What we need to do is protect the status quo. There are clowns in New York and
at the federal level who are already talking about banning 3D printed guns.

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freddealmeida
Has ITAR been challenged under the 1st Amendment?

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fixxer
Streisand effect... bad move State, bad move.

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jrockway
This reminds me of cryptography export in the 1990s. The government's case did
not hold up in court and now you can write as much as you want about
cryptography.

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korethr
This xkcd seems appropriate: <http://xkcd.com/504/>

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cpursley
Well, the State Department can go <bold>fuck</bold> themselves.

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tks2103
people will likely be able to cheaply manufacture guns on private property
very soon.

is this a problem?

~~~
jlgreco
They already can. It has been possible and within reach for anyone who ever
took a real shop class for as long as you can imagine. Not only is it
possible, but it is in fact done in practice. A particularly famous example
(of many): <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khyber_Pass_Copy>

People are losing their marbles over this particular gun because it was put
out there with the intention of being provocative. People fear what they are
told to fear.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Improvised guns are a problem in China also, but it is also one of those
crimes with an often applied death penalty.

I don't see 3D printing changing the situation very much, as the capability
already exists and is harshly regulated.

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robomartin
I think everyone is failing to point out the sheer futility of this action
based on the most fundamental of human traits: Our ability to solve problems
creatively and make things.

I would be utterly stunned if 75% to 95% of mechanical engineers --anywhere in
the world-- could not, given the task, design such a gun from scratch. I am
not a mechanical engineer and I am 100% confident I could, if interested
enough, do a good job of it (I rock at Solidworks and CNC).

This is one of those "you can't un-ring a bell" moments. The design is out and
tons of people could design it all over again from first principles. Not sure
what the government accomplished other than to make these files --and the
general idea of a 3D printed gun-- really popular overnight.

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aspensmonster
I'd be more concerned about recently stolen state-of-the-art technology taking
an early one-way flight westward on a thumb drive than I'd be about a plastic
single-shot gun (that apparently isn't even stable; from what I've heard the
thing has exploded before in testing). As others have said, producing weapons
independently has been happening for ages; the processes and technology for
pushing pieces of metal out of tubes at high speeds aren't overly complicated.
Unregistered guns are still obtainable even if you can't hack one together
yourself.

But this isn't the first time ITAR has been abused. Can you say strong
cryptography?

