
The porn industry is in a bind - nkurz
http://www.wired.com/2015/10/the-porn-business-isnt-anything-like-you-think-it-is/
======
mindcrime
Forget about the porn for a minute gang... this is, to me, the key insight in
the story:

    
    
        VR and its cousin, “augmented reality,” are controlled by the big corporations. 
        Facebook owns the Oculus Rift. Microsoft built the Hololens. 
        Google does Google Glass. These will treat porn at least like Android 
        treats porn—or maybe even like Glass treated porn when O’Connell 
        unveiled his app. In other words, they won’t allow it through official 
        channels and maybe not at all.
    

And it isn't even just about VR... the point is, we, collectively, are losing
control of our use of computing and technology.

Remember the early 80's, when anybody could buy a handful of 8086 processors,
a Phoenix or Award BIOS, some cases, etc., and start pumping out IBM
compatible PCs? That was pretty amazing, and arguably led to amazing things.
How about the way you could take your PC and install ANY operating system on
it: DOS, Xenix, Solaris x86, Windows, OS/2, BeOS, BSD Unix, various flavors of
Linux, etc. Great opportunity for invention and creation there...

and now? When was the last time you installed a new OS on your smartphone?
Your game console? Your VR device? Your smart watch? Etc?

Yeah... thought so.

Look, I'm not saying anything terribly new here, and I don't claim to be. Cory
Doctorow said it all better, and before:

[http://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html](http://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html)

But we need to take this seriously. I don't want to live in a world where
Google, Facebook, IBM, HP, Twitter, Microsoft, EMC, Cisco, Snapchat, etc.,
decide what content I can consume, what programs I can run, etc. And I doubt
most of you do either.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Right this moment I'm sitting in an office in the place that represents our
hope, a capital of continued progress[0] - Shenzhen, China. Everything
Facebook, Google and Microsoft designs gets built here (or nearby) anyway.
China has a... quite healthy attitude towards copyright and trade secrets.
That is, they don't give a flying fuck here. There was even a term for that,
that eludes me at the moment, which described the idea of "I share my specs
today with you, you'll share your specs tomorrow with me". And in the ongoing
war on general-purpose computing, for better or worse, this seems to be our
only recourse.

I'm gonna ask around if they have any Google Glass knockoffs or components
handy.

[0] - built on the backs of abused and impoverished people, but that's a topic
for another day.

~~~
kragen
> "I share my specs today with you, you'll share your specs tomorrow with me"

This is how Silicon Valley worked, back when the silicon was actually made
there. My impression is that Google's obsessive culture of secrecy (necessary
because it grew up in an environment where loose lips really did sink ships)
is the strongest influence in destroying that culture of information-sharing,
although of course NDAs, interface copyright lawsuits, DRM, and software
patents have also taken their toll.

California's century-old legal limitations on what rights employees can sign
away to employers have also been very helpful.

So it's not surprising that technological development is happening today in a
place where employers' ability to own their employees' minds is more limited —
the innovation is done by the engineers, after all, not the investors, so
shifting the power balance in favor of the investors will damage your region's
competitiveness.

I'm interested to hear about the abuse and impoverishment.

~~~
TeMPOraL
> _I 'm interested to hear about the abuse and impoverishment._

Disclaimer: I've only been in China for a week so far, so what I can tell is
just what I see (besides what everyone hears in Western media, that is) and it
may be biased.

Shenzhen is a city of many contrasts. I work in a relatively modern office
building and live in a not-totally-crap hotel. I travel to work via taxis
which seem to be staffed by poor people trying to make a living. Forget about
Uber here.

When I get out of the hotel, I can turn left and find myself next to KFC,
Starbucks and a big shopping mall full of expensive-looking clothes.
Everything is plastered with ads like you wouldn't believe. Or I can turn
right and find myself on a poor street that is flooded with trash and occupied
by tons of people selling absolutely everything - meat, fruits, phones, barber
services. Those people look impoverished and from what I can tell, pretty much
sit there 24h/day 7 days a week trying to sell something to someone. They are
all incredibly friendly, but you can feel the lack of perspective for a better
life; it's heartbreaking. There's a family of street food vendors making fried
pasta with various meats; a father, a mother and a son. I'm buying food from
them pretty much every day. They're extremely proficient at what they do (and
they use up scary amounts of propane for that), but you can see that they'll
be doing it for the rest of their lives.

There's a big construction zone next to a metro station nearby. They'll
probably be building skyscrapers, like a lot of others that are currently in
progress. The zone is fenced off with 2m high concrete walls. I managed to
take a look through a crack, and what I saw was something akin to a labour
camp. Some metal sheds, minimum sanitation, lots of people cramped together.
I've been told they're workers from local villages. They looked hungry and
impoverished. They don't seem to have any safety equipment.

There's a fucking Starbucks and a KFC and lots of people with smartphones few
hundred meters downstreet. And a modern, high-tech metro station on the other
side of the wall.

Then there are electronics markets. Tons of fancy stuff. Everything you could
imagine. Sold by people cramped together in small spaces that look like they
couldn't afford what they're selling. Basically third world selling first-
world products.

It's really unnerving that you can have a place that is so amazing and yet so
sad at the same time, with nothing but an occasional concrete wall separating
the two pictures.

~~~
kragen
Here in Buenos Aires we have a lot of entrenched poverty too, in slums that
are often only tens of meters from rich areas. What I wonder most about is:
what is the relationship between the poverty and the prosperity? Are the
people in the "labour camp" able to go out and shop for meat, fruits, and
barber services? Can they go get another job? Or are they in some kind of debt
bondage? Have they been forced out of their homes by the electronics
industries, or are they sending money to their parents and grandparents back
in the village? Are the street food vendors and desperate taxi drivers better
off than they were before the electronics industry came along, or are they
finding themselves unable to pay the escalating bribes and taxes, forced off
the land their families farmed, and occasionally beat up by police for scaring
rich teenagers? What was their life like five or ten years ago, and what do
they expect it to be like five or ten years from now? Can they walk to the
KFC, or will the police pick them up as if they were Maciej Ceglowski walking
around in the wrong neighborhood
[http://www.idlewords.com/2006/08/i_spy.htm](http://www.idlewords.com/2006/08/i_spy.htm)
or a black person walking around in a white neighborhood in the US?

Why is there only trash on the poor street? Do people not throw trash on the
ground on the rich street, or is there a municipal street sweeping service
that takes care of that? If so, why doesn't it clean the poor street? What's
up with the lack of safety equipment? I'm happy to live in a country where I
can still enjoy fast merry-go-rounds, but safety equipment in construction
work is super important for preventing accidental death.

The _derivative_ and the _causality_ are more important than the _current
state_.

~~~
TeMPOraL
I wish I could answer your questions. I keep asking them myself. I want to
talk about it with someone local, but it's incredibly hard to find someone
speaking English here outside work (and incredibly awkward to ask those
questions at work), and my Chinese currently is limited to "hello", "thank
you" and "goodbye" (I try to learn some as fast as I can; I only had a week's
notice I'll be flying here so there wasn't time to prepare).

My Polish co-worker who is here with me and has been here before tells me of a
girl working here who somehow escaped the poor villages far away from the
metropolis and ended up working as a software tester. He says that he tried to
talk with her about life, but that her English proficiency is limited to the
technical matters; she can't express herself in English if asked about non-
work topics, probably due to lack of general vocabulary.

I'll be happy to post something if I learn the answers to those questions.

~~~
cinquemb
I'm also interested to learn more if you come across any answers? Will you
post it on your website or something? I feel like I'll miss it if it is posted
on HN.

~~~
TeMPOraL
I'm noting down to update both you and 'kragen after I write something up. I
might post it on my blog or do a Tell HN; we'll see after I actually have
something to write about :). You can also shoot me an e-mail (mine in the
profile) so that I know how to notify you directly.

~~~
dongchongyubing
Shenzhen is one of the best city in China. From your standard and perspective
, other places seems looks like hell .

------
rickdale
Back in the day, when porn was in the big online bubble state, sites would
offer over $.50/click to their site. When I first started (ab)using that
system, the sites immediately bumped it to $.25/click and then $.10/click, and
now I think its like $.000034/click, or basically nothing. They would also
give you additional money for actual sign ups, and had a bonus day on every
month where you made a significant amount more for sign ups.

Ultimately I think I cashed in like $7000 when I was 12 before shit hit the
fan and the company my buddy and I were using sent him a check that bounced.
It was tough explaining it to our parents, but ultimately everyone knew about
alladvantage and we would always say it was something similar to that. We also
cashed in on alladvantage, I think it was $20/month just to have the thing on
for a few hours.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AllAdvantage](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AllAdvantage)

~~~
prawn
We might've had similar starts.

I bought my first computer with cheques from a porn affiliate program. Soon
after I started, they required visitors click through an age-verification to
confirm and pay out.

So I put together a protected zip file of M-rated images and set the password
as the xth word of the yth paragraph on the page after the age verification.

That only worked for a couple of weeks, but it was enough.

~~~
rickdale
Thats great. I remember at some point they would only accept users from their
direct banner ads, which I could never generate money from. I am sure a lot of
people used these affiliate programs, but I rarely ever hear anyone talk about
it. Only one other time and it was in a movie and I am not certain it was as
similar as we are talking about. Great stuff, thanks for sharing!

------
rdancer
The fine article talks about the losers of the trade war. The winners are OK.
If you look where the money is, it's with MindGeek (formerly known as Manwin),
a company that has through the years bought bought most of the tube/cam sites,
owns Brazzers and other content producers.

For sure, tired unattractive content won't make it. But then you have the true
artists of fucking, like James Deen, Pierre Woodman, and those guys working at
Czech AV. They seem to be doing quite well.

The innovation in porn, from what I've seen (hehe), is on the personal level,
when a performer interacts regularly with viewers through social networks. To
successfully provide illusion of intimacy or a relationship is the next
frontier in porn, in my humble opinion.

~~~
TeMPOraL
There was a comment posted here, that sadly got deleted. I think it raises an
interesting topic. Let me reproduce it:

\---

> _illusion of intimacy or a relationship_

Could that lead to sexrobots as a mass market in, say, five years? Or do you
think it would go more into the VR direction? Could / should both be merged?
Would that be useful? Perhaps AR would be better in that case.

Thoughts on that?

\---

The response I tried to submit when parent got deleted:

I think this is the angle that will try and resist automation for a while. The
first world is getting somewhat devoid of genuine relationship experiences,
and people seek to fill the hole somehow. Or from a more cynical point of view
- we're building a superstimulus, where we can provide _stronger_ emotional
satisfaction through porn that you could get in a real relationship.

Personally I think VR/AR will make a killing much sooner than sexrobots, even
assuming that the latter will become popular at all in the coming decades. One
of the biggest constraints on... enhancing your sexual experience, if you're
young and lonely, is what if your parents/family/friends/current partner
discover your sex toys. Hiding sex dolls from them is a significant OPSEC
issue. VR/AR will be as easy to hide as video porn today is - the device
you're using is a general purpose, you could always say you bought it for
World of Warcraft 2 or something. The porn component is just data, which is
trivial to hide from less technical friends and family.

~~~
rdancer
VR headsets have been here since the 1990's, and nothing ever came of it,
despite the tons of productions shots from the point of view of the male
performer. Even 3D is extremely rare.

Better fidelity and added depth perception do not bring better illusion of
intimacy. It's a red herring.

~~~
TeMPOraL
True. However I don't recall any quality VR headsets available for reasonable
prices before Oculus Rift though. There was something going on in the late
90s, but back then we didn't have PornHub.

------
jenmcewen
I was _just_ about to share this. That's my company (and me in 2 of the
pictures). Thanks for sharing it.

~~~
onedev
You should do an AMA here in this thread about the industry!

I'll start. What are some common misconceptions about the industry in general
and what do you think about the accuracy of the article and how it paints the
industry?

~~~
jenmcewen
An AMA sounds fun. :)

I think the article covered the misconceptions and the state of the industry
pretty well.

I think the biggest misconceptions are: 1\. No one pays for porn, but we know
they do. 2\. Selling is a sure-fire way to make a ton of money. It's only
sure-fire if you're going to use less than favorable tactics, as with any
business. 3\. Everyone in porn is a scammer. There are bad apples, but most
folks in the adult industry are really great to work with. 4\. That porn tube
sites are the common enemy. But in many ways it's the big mainstream tech
giants that threaten the industry. Take a look at Tumblr. They made it so easy
to spread and share pirated content with one click and even if you wanted to
claim your content back by adding your affiliate links, they will ban your
account and call that "spam".

~~~
petra
Jen, how do you think the virtual reality porn industry will look like?

------
yarou
Wired really has dropped in quality, publishing articles that state the
obvious and do little to advance critical thought.

Perhaps it is a sign of the times that the lack of original content has led to
content-mill-esque pieces that aren't the least bit provactive or
controversial.

~~~
visarga
I'm wondering why they don't mine reddit threads for ideas and then compile
them into articles. I often find the comments much more interesting than the
articles, so, if they filtered out good ideas they would have an inexhaustible
source.

------
lmm
I always felt it was weird that in the west there's this clear sharp line
between porn and not, whereas in Japan things seemed a lot more blurred - it
was normal for celebrities to become porn stars and vice versa, for game
franchises that started as porn to get a cleaned-up Playstation instalment,
for manga artists to release unofficial porn versions of their own work. I
remember watching the movie Swordfish and being struck by how much the one
incongruous topless scene felt like something you'd see in a Japanese work. So
maybe we're seeing some kind of convergence?

~~~
beeglebug
_> whereas in Japan things seemed a lot more blurred_

or pixelated

------
DiabloD3
Okay, so, silly question time: why can't we just have a Paetron for porn
actors and actresses? Cut out all of the middle men, pay them directly?

~~~
jenmcewen
Some performers do use Patreon. But if you want to promote your erotic work,
Patreon doesn't accept accounts promoting porn with live actors, only drawn
art.

~~~
hugh4
So there's a huge gap in the market for a nsfw patreon? (Porntreon?)

~~~
jenmcewen
oh yeah, lots of creators use Patreon. Fenoxo, the creator of the text based
RPG Trials in Tainted Space (he sells it in MiKandi), uses Patreon and brings
in $20K a month.
[https://www.patreon.com/user?u=121401&u=121401&ty=h](https://www.patreon.com/user?u=121401&u=121401&ty=h)

So far it's a great service for adult art and fiction creators. But as with
any mainstream service and adult content, you can't ever be sure how long
it'll last. Past experience has shown it's a matter of time before adult gets
kicked out of the party. I hope that won't be the case with Patreon.

------
J_Darnley
"salaries somewhere in the low six figures" I'm so sorry! At least when the
porn industry collapses I will have my stash of torrented porn to rely on. In
other news: walled garden are bad for everyone.

------
sandworm101
Never trust articles about porn. I've never seen one that represented more
than a myopic view. It's a very diverse industry.

I hope that Kink implodes. That side of the industry started as an almost
joke. Bush, pre-911 Bush, talked about going after violent porn. So a couple
producers got together and said: "Well, lets give them a target." They had
first amendment lawyers primed for battle. Then 9/11, and the feds never
showed up. Fast forwards a decade or so, and the violent porn meant to trigger
a freedom of speech battle is practically mainstream. Kink.com is now a giant
and customers are leaving for content that even Kink wouldn't touch. The old
hats are aghast at the beast they've unleashed.

I've got clients that come to me when employees are caught downloading things
they shouldn't. I'm the guy that has to go through this material and figure
out whether anything is illegal, whether we have to bring in the cops. It
isn't fun.

(But i did once practically fall out of my chair at a client meeting when I
was introduced as "the external expert on child porn". I was in fact the guy
there to explain that the material wasn't such. The employee was fired, but
the police were not involved.)

~~~
vezzy-fnord
Kink is actually relatively tame as far as "violent porn" goes. Insex set the
standard in hardcore S/M during its day and was actually forced to close over
scrutiny from its perceived obscenity. Many modern S/M sites owe their style
and aesthetic to Insex's grisliness. Speaking of which, a documentary I'd
recommend viewing on the topic is _Graphic Sexual Horror_. Be sure to watch it
during the day.

Of course, I'm not counting things like guro, crushing or vore. S/M is a long
established subculture, though I suppose the more hardcore stuff is relatively
recent in practice. I don't think it should be marginalized in the slightest.
It's certainly _not_ a joke, however.

~~~
sandworm101
No doubt insex had a profound effect on culture. Frankly, I would say it is
almost comparable to Playboy. The Hostile and Saw film franchises are direct
outcomes of insex.

What Kink has done is to take insex and add lawyers. They dropped some of the
more legally-dangerous aspects (plots/scripts) and added comical "interviews"
with all involved. But heaven help the attorneys who might have to defend Kink
against obscenity charges. They are in totally unknown waters.

~~~
anigbrowl
_Hostile and Saw film franchises are direct outcomes of insex_

Absurd. I'm sure it was an influence, but let's not forget that the century
kicked off with videos of things like Al Qaeda terrorists sawing off Daniel
Pearl's head and horrific ethnic cleansing abuses in the Balkans. To think
that these would not have been on Eli Roth's radar and ascribe it all to a
porn site strains credulity.

 _legally-dangerous aspects (plots /scripts)_

Do please explain your theory of what makes these legally dangerous. I am sure
you have more legal knowledge than I, a law school dropout, but I'm interested
enough censorship and first amendment issues that this claims seems highly
questionable.

Also, it's wrong unless it's based on some very recent news. I may as well
admit I'm somewhat into SM myself and so I'm familiar with Kink.com's output,
though I don't consume much porn. Last time I looked they were still doing
things with plots, albeit the very rudimentary plots that amount to little
more than verbal foreplay to set up the scene for the sexual activity. Now, I
have no professional or personal relationship with them (although I have loose
acquaintances with several people who have worked or performed for the firm)
and don't find their offerings very erotic, but I fail to see why you would
think it falls outside the bounds of first amendment protection, unless you
are of the opinion that no sane person could consent to engage in
sadomasochistic practices.

~~~
sandworm101
The use of plots, of backstories, risk moving the footage from BDSM into the
world of kidnappings and outright rape.

Without getting too graphic, putting an actress in a cheerleader outfit is
perfectly acceptable in porn, you can even throw in elements of BDSM. But give
her the backstory of being kidnapped from her school and forced into sex ...
that same BDSM imagery is now a graphic rape.

The same goes for age. Putting an actress in a schoolgirl outfit is one thing,
giving her lines about being the the 9th grade (and therefore underage) is
very different. Kink knows it's best to avoid scripting.

~~~
anigbrowl
I appreciate your taking the time to reply.

Obviously suggestions of being underage would be hugely problematic. While I
don't see anything _illegal_ about an adult performer pretending to be younger
in a fictional context (but with the requisite 2257 filings in place) it would
certainly border on commercial suicide due to adverse publicity, not to
mention international problems (eg UK law is now considerably stricter on
obscenity, banning the appearance of various acts as well as the performance
thereof in real life).

Now I can certainly see how a fictional kidnapping and rape could be similarly
problematic, and the material I've seen steers away from such themes (but
there's some self-selection bias there as that's not erotic to me anyway). But
ISTM you'd have a very strong defense under the first amendment
notwithstanding the graphic nature of the amterial. I mean, I can watch films
like _Nymphomaniac_ or _The Night Porter_ on Netflix or DVD even though they
are both graphic and include scenes of sexual coercion. They're not as graphic
as a porn movie, obviously, but differences of degree haven't usually been
enough to get an obscenity conviction in US courts in recent memory, eg US v.
Stevens being found overbroad.

You mentioned having written some articles and I'd certainly be interested in
reading those even if they're primarily aimed at HR contexts. By chance I
recently downloaded the Meese commission report to refresh my knowledge of the
area so I would be interested in hearing more of your professional perspective
(same name at gmail if you prefer). I eke out a living in indie film and have
never worked in porn myself, but from a political and professional standpoint
freedom of expression is a huge issue for me so I feel obliged to go to bat
for other producers even where I find their output distasteful or straight-up
trashy.

Thanks again for engaging with me on a difficult topic.

------
trhway
>“The first fiction ever published on a printing press was an erotic tale. And
from there: super 8 film, Polaroid, home video, digital, video on demand—”

what do you think these figurines were 20000 years ago?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_figurines](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_figurines)

"Most of them have small heads, wide hips, and legs that taper to a point.
Various figurines exaggerate the abdomen, hips, breasts, thighs, or vulva. In
contrast, arms and feet are often absent, and the head is usually small and
faceless."

------
Axsuul
It was interesting to see this post on the front page a minute ago and then
get pushed to the third page just now. Is this type of content discouraged
from being discussed here?

~~~
dang
No, it's not that. HN's software misidentified the thread as a flamewar. It
was actually a remarkably substantive, active discussion. We've turned the
penalty off.

------
fiatmoney
The problem is that with the legalization & wide dissemination of free
pornography, the "market" in terms of dedicated commercial potential shrank
from anyone with a passing case of onanism to the population of hard-core
addicts. Just about all new development is dedicated to better serving that
demographic. Sadly for the porn industry in aggregate, that demographic has a
very limited total pool of money.

------
wodenokoto
While the little guys aren't making bank anymore, what about the big guys?

It's my impression that the pornhub network is quite healthy, financially.

~~~
jqm
you are talking about the studios not the actors right?

~~~
wodenokoto
I'm talking about companies. I don't know if pornhub counts as a studio.

------
denniskane
I've read most of this thread, and have been feeling increasingly more like
Nick Cage's character in 8mm as he followed the trail of clues until he
finally got to that guy with the heavy accent who put Steve Buscemi into the
woodchipper in Fargo. Ugh. Talk about slippery slopes...

------
nickysielicki
> “Anyone can download them. You can. Your kids can. That’s just not a place
> we want to go.”

Steve Jobs was such a piece of work. As if browsers don't exist.

