
PayPal Set to Suspend Domestic Transactions in Argentina - jp_sc
http://thenextweb.com/la/2012/09/13/paypal-set-suspend-domestic-transactions-argentina/
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rafaelm
We have had the same restrictions in Venezuela since 2003. Venezuelans cannot
freely spend their hard earned money abroad without jumping through a series
of ridiculous government loops just to be able to spend $400 a year online and
$2500/year if you travel.

All this does is create an artificial currency value and a rampant black
market. The official value is Bs. 4.3 per dollar. The black market value is
Bs.10.5 per dollar. You can imagine what this does for the inflation in a
country that does not produce anything else apart from oil. That is why we
have an annual inflation rate of around 27% (cannot look it up, I'm on my
phone.)

We basically have a 'port economy',where everything is imported, with no
incentives towards increasing local production and manufacturing. Add to that
a government that is consistently destroying and confiscating private
enterprises and you do the math.

~~~
cynwoody
You need to pursue a Mussolini solution.

By which I mean, not what Mussolini did to Italy, but what the Italians did to
Mussolini after Patton liberated them.

------
jstalin
I have friends and family in Argentina and the pace of economic deterioration
is quickening.

~~~
csomar
Could you elaborate more? I thought Argentina was doing well from the
financial side.

~~~
yeahsure
I live in Argentina. Since October 2011 the government has been enacting new
legislation almost weekly to restrict citizens access to US dollars, as well
as tightening tax control to an almost ridiculous level. Also, for the last
couple of years the government has been restricting imports, specially if
companies refuse to export something (for example, Porsche is exporting
peanuts so it can bring cars into the country). Apple for example refused, so
none of their products can enter the country. The only Apple store in my city
closed shop a few months ago.

Finally, inflation is rampant (around 25% annually) but the government denies
it and so it can collect more taxes since salaries are going up every year and
more people fall into high-income tax brakets.

In a nutshell, the economy is not that bad, but the government keeps screwing
up and everyone can see we're going down.

There are country-wide protests right now, here you can see them:
<http://tn.com.ar/envivo/24hs>

~~~
ramoncito
I totally agree. I live here and I cannot travel abroad anymore, since the
government does not allow me to buy any foreign currency. I collect payments
from US using Paypal, in dollars, but I receive pesos here.

There is a lot of corruption.

The president said, on TV, that the people must be afraid of her.

There are a lot of products that are not available anymore, for example,
pacemakers (a relative of mine needs a new one and, at the moment, there are
none available).

A picture of the protests of today: [http://sphotos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-
ash4/c99.0.403.403/...](http://sphotos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-
ash4/c99.0.403.403/p403x403/383362_526614650687462_165775346_n.jpg)

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runako
Earlier this year, The Economist dropped official Argentine statistics from
its compilations for being unbelievable:

<http://www.economist.com/node/21548242>

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jrockway
Does PayPal have offices in Argentina? If not, why does following the law
matter?

~~~
aristidb
The USA do things like reroute planes for that purpose. I suppose Argentina
can't do that so easily.

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robomartin
Argentina has great people. It also has a culture of horribly corrupt and
self-serving governments. The name of the game, if you are in government, is
to cheat, lie and steal. Every one of those fuckers has nicely padded bank
accounts out of the country somewhere. The've robbed that country out of so
much it is hard to describe.

I lived there for many years. I saw it first hand. I also became aware of the
history and how corruption and manipulation has been a core part of
governmental culture.

In conversations with friends I can't help but draw parallels between what has
happened in Argentina over the decades and what happens in the US.

One of the most famous examples of government manipulation and vote-buying was
when Evita (way back when) would show-up at neighborhoods and hand out bikes,
refrigerators, blenders, etc. to the population. Of course, they were buying
votes. Same with their "sindicatos" (unions) and other groups.

These governments have used the guise of socialism (down with the rich, etc.)
to drum-up popular support and remain in power. The reality is that most of
them should probably have been tried and thrown into prison for treason.

In the US the Democratic party exhibits some of these traits. The corruption
in places like Argentina is very obvert. It's amazing how everyone knows about
it and it is very much a matter of daily national conversation.

Here in the US it used to be more subtle. Not now. Democrats openly channel
benefits towards government and private unions as a way to buy their votes. If
a being from another planet landed in the US and listened to Obama speak it
would conclude that the only important people in this nation are "teachers,
police, firemen and construction workers". Why? Because that is all he
mentions in his speeches. Translated: "union, union, union, union".

If you succeed in buying union ("sindicato" in Argentina) votes you are buying
the votes of their immediate family as well as all union retirees. That
amounts to millions upon millions of people. Brilliant, if you think about it.

It goes far deeper than this. The Argentinian goverment figured this out a
long time ago. Create class divisions. Get those on the dole worked-up about
those with money. This guarantees millions of easy votes and you remain in
power. It is also easy when this ideology permeates colleges and universities
and kids come out of school actually believing this shit. If you are a college
or university graduate, pull way back, realize that you may have been subject
to indoctrination and try to see the world for what it actually is before
parroting what your radical professors told you.

What's sad about this is that, both here and in Argentina, it all comes at the
expense of the country in general. Those in power remain in power and live the
good life (Another vacation or golf trip Mr. Obama?) and truly live outside of
the realities of the country. The masses get their blenders, bikes,
refrigerators, playstations, bonuses, etc. and buy into the idea that they are
being oppressed by everyone and are entitled to take from everyone in order to
live. The country goes to hell and nobody wins. Our kids will have to deal
with the real consequences of this mess.

Argentina is a warning to everyone in the world. Watch and learn. See what can
happen when government goes wild and acts not for the benefit of the entire
country but for themselves and nobody else. Manipulating the masses is a
tried-and-true way to acquire votes with few, if any, real consequences after
the fact.

I have friends who still live there. Some have businesses and are terrified.
Some are doctors and are living from paycheck to paycheck --if they get paid
at all. Nearly every Argentinian has stories of someone getting held-up,
sometimes at gun-point, when coming or leaving home or going about their daily
life. The government does nothing. And, in fact, a lot of these criminal
elements end-up being the voting masses that support them (living in favela-
type encamptments all over the place). It's amazing to see people who live
like shit support the very party that keeps them there. In the US that's
welfare recipients. Legalized vote buying. How many welfare recipients do you
think ever vote Republican? How many people in Argentina do you think vote for
political parties who will take away their entitlements and put them to work
for their own benefit and that of the country. Right.

The solutions to these problems can only evolve internally.

In Argentina I am afraid that it might be so far gone that only a major event,
such as nation-wide unrest and an ousting of the government can ever hope to
find a solution. This wouldn't be the first time this would happen over there.

In the US it is still thankfully quite civilized. All you have to do is be
intelligent about how you vote and things can change.

As a Libertarian I have to make a choice between two parties that don't quite
represent me. So, in many ways, it is about the lesser evil. Casting a vote
for a Libertarian candidate would, at this juncture, be irresponsible.

Casting a vote for the Democratic candidate would be even worst. The last
thing this country needs is more union workers earning $300K for life when
they retire. I could not, in good conscience, saddle my kids and the
generation after them with that ridiculous burden.

And, while I don't necessarily agree with all of the Republican platform (I'm
an heterosexual atheist and don't have issues with gays at all) I must cast my
vote in their favor. I, for one, would really like to see what a real
businessman could do with the mess we have created in the US over the last
fifty years.

Obama was an exciting bet in 2008. In retrospect, the guy wasn't even
qualified to run a cookie baking operation, much less an entire country. We
made a mistake. I hope we all fix it in November.

~~~
dguaraglia
You know? I couldn't agree more. I grew up in Argentina and I've been telling
this to Americans for a while now: guys, I've seen this movie, you won't like
the ending. Still, most people don't seem to wake up to the idea that
officials can be as corrupt as anyone else.

Still, I can't agree with your "Democrats are shit, so you should vote
Republican" argument. Sure, it might sound like you are changing something,
but at the end of the day they are all driven by the same interest groups.

~~~
robomartin
> guys, I've seen this movie, you won't like the ending

Funny, I say the same thing. I was educated in three different cultures and
graduated high-school in both the US and Argentina. What can I say, my parents
got around. They are entrepreneurs and had businesses both in the US and
Argentina. My father tells some amazing stories about what it was like to do
business there. One of my favorites was when his clothing factory got a
surprise visit from a high-ranking local military general. He showed-up with
two trucks and fully armed soldiers. Went into the office with my father and
walked away with an envelope with cash as well as a huge pile of merchandise.
The cost of doing business. Talk about having to have balls of steel. Not sure
I could do that, and I've been around.

> Still, I can't agree with your "Democrats are shit, so you should vote
> Republican" argument

I didn't really say that. I drew a parallel between the way Democrats,
effectively, throw money at union workers to buy their votes, the votes of
their families and those of retired union workers. Unions, in the US, are a
solid unified voting block that always votes Democrat. That does not happen
across groups of millions of people unless their vote is being bought through
benefits and more.

Please tell me, what are our options? Only two people have the ability to win
the race: Obama or Romney. I supported Obama in 2008. I can't rightly do that
today. His re-election would mean that union will grow stronger and receive
more benefits and support than they should. That, as a single issue, is a
deal-breaker for me.

~~~
natrius
_"Unions, in the US, are a solid unified voting block that always votes
Democrat. That does not happen across groups of millions of people unless
their vote is being bought through benefits and more."_

Politics aside, this is faulty logic. Unions vote for Democrats because
Republicans support policies that make unions weaker. It's a genuine policy
difference, and they both have logical arguments.

~~~
robomartin
No, it's not faulty at all. People tend to favor those who favor them, those
who given them things. The example in Argentina was Evita handing blenders and
bikes to the people on the streets.

The fact that there are those who believe that those policies are wrong is
meaningless to the voters. The group will vote for those who give them things,
plain and simple. And they will do so even at their own peril. Case in point:
How many cities have now filed for bankruptcy protection broken under the
weight of pensions that cannot be supported?

The only regulatory element in the feedback loop of the whole unionized labor
equation is complete and utter failure. Nobody is going to say something like
"Wait a minute, who's going to pay for these exorbitant lifetime pensions?
Let's scale it back and make them reasonable." No, they'll take and take and
take until the goose is dead and no more golden eggs can be produced. This, to
some extent, is human nature.

Given that, it is only natural that these groups will not support or vote for
those who come forward and expose reality. Nobody likes being wrong. It
becomes tribal, us vs. them, and all reason is lost.

Simple exercise:

Hire a gardener for $100 per month to take care of your lawn.

Let's say he retires after five years (to speed up the example).

Now, by contract, you have to continue to pay him $100 per month for the rest
of his life.

But, wait a minute. You still need a gardener.

No problem, you hire another one at the same $100 per month.

The issue is that, now, the same position costs you $200 per month, $100 for
the guy doing the work and another $100 for the guy who retired.

Repeat that five years later. Now the same position costs you $300 per month.

Of course, the gardener's union will favor and vote for those who will keep
this gravy train going, regardless of the fact that it is killing the goose.
And yes, anyone who dares bring up the reality of what is going on will not
only not get their votes, but they'll also be treated to their attacks and
ire. The funny thing is that reality and mathematics don't change and
eventually the house of cards comes crashing down.

This is an over-simplification, but it serves to illustrate one simple reality
of the union problem. Democrats give them more and more, and that's why they
continue to vote for them. Mathematically, with sixteen trillion dollars in
debt this situation cannot continue for too long. We'll see what happens when
the music stops.

So, yes, people like me are saying: It's time to stop this madness. And, for
that, we are hated and ridiculed. That's OK.

~~~
natrius
As far as I can tell, you're fabricating scenarios that match your viewpoint.
Feel free to provide citations to show otherwise. Obama-controlled General
Motors forced unions to accept cuts to their pensions during the
restructuring[1], which is the opposite of the behavior you're describing.

Anyway, this clearly isn't the right place for this discussion, but I don't
think highly voted incorrect statements should be allowed to stand
unchallenged.

[1]
[http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1902009,00....](http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1902009,00.html)

~~~
robomartin
> Obama-controlled General Motors forced unions to accept cuts to their
> pensions during the restructuring

From the very article you linked to, in the very first paragraph:

"The plan gives the union's health-care vehicle some promissory notes, plus a
17.5% stake in GM and warrants to purchase another 2.5%"

It goes beyond that. The government bailed out GM. That's obvious. We, the tax
payers, now own some 500 million shares of the stock. This stock would have to
be sold at some $53 per share to just break even. Google it. We are taking a
huge loss to benefit the unions.

Lastly, one of the reasons GM is doing well is that the government has
vectored a ton of business towards GM. We, the tax payers, are buying brand
new GM cars at a time when government should be making due with what they have
and save us money. This is a secondary and never-ending bailout.

Translation: We got your back. Vote for us when the time comes.

Using taxpayer money to buy votes. Brilliant.

Want backing articles? Fire-up Excel and Google it. Do the math, don't just
take in left-wing articles and use them as the truth. Don't take right-wing
articles as the truth either. It's amazing how easy it is to clear the
bullshit out of some of this stuff if people would just take the time to take
paper and pencil and do a little math.

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Uchikoma
Funny how people here still keep suggesting Argentina is the way for Greece.

~~~
Uchikoma
Sorry, I meant Europe with "here" not HN.

~~~
arnnr
That's amazing, I thought only some tards here in greece spoke about the
Argentina's way, the way of dignity, pride etc...

In which country are you?

