
Macedonia changes name, ending bitter dispute with Greece - kylesellas
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/17/macedonia-greece-dispute-name-accord-prespa
======
JumpCrisscross
I continue to regard this as the stupidest geopolitical dispute our reality
can safely support.

~~~
Foivos
What would it mean for Portugal if Spain decided to change its name to Iberia?

This is exactly what is happening here. They want to be named after a
geographical region which is way bigger than their borders.

~~~
newfoundglory
Yea, it's as silly as a country claiming to be the "United States of America"
when lol, Canada and Mexico and all of South America would like a word...

~~~
PhasmaFelis
I eventually figured out that this is largely an issue with terminology.

In Central/South America, it's generally taught that everything from Nunavut
to Cape Horn is a single continent, America. When the US calls itself
"America," that's seen as a deliberate attempt to claim primacy over the whole
continent.

In English-speaking North America, it's generally taught that "America" is the
country and "North America/South America" are the continents, so we're
befuddled by the irritation.

This is why Canada, actually, doesn't appear to have an issue with the
"America" thing.

~~~
romwell
>in English-speaking North America, it's generally taught that "America" is
the country and "North America/South America" are the continents

aaaaaand you don't see any problem here, no?

Let's try again. With that logic, there'd be no problem with Germany calling
itself "Europe":

"What's the problem? When we say 'Europe', we mean our home country, a large
part of the region known as 'Western Europe', and disjoint from 'Eastern
Europe' \- everybody here is befuddled by why the Greeks are upset! The
Austrians are totally on board with it, by the way."

~~~
pseudalopex
Words can mean different things in different languages and different contexts.

In English-speaking cultures, North and South America are separate continents.
"America" is understood to mean the USA. The polite term for someone from the
USA is "American". Calling a Canadian "American" is impolite.

In Spanish-speaking cultures, América is a single continent. "Estados Unidos"
is understood to mean "de América", not "Mexicanos". People from the USA are
commonly called "estadounidense", "norteamericano", or "americano". It's
polite for outsiders to use "estadounidense".

Neither language is indigenous to the Americas, so why not just use the polite
words in each language?

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crypt1d
Considering how strong nationalistic propaganda is these days in the Balkans,
if this thing passes all the referendums, etc needed to make it a reality, it
will be a huge win. Congrats

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ninjamayo
I really hope things change for the better. Being from the north of Greece I
know first hand the difficulties with the name. I am very passionate about it
but I understand we live in a different world. My feeling is that the Greek
government and their NATO, EU allies pushed this forward now in order to stop
the imperialistic plans of Erdogan in the region. I think with more Balkan
countries in the EU, NATO influences start and stop with the West not the
Russians, not the Erdoganites.

~~~
ryanlol
>I am very passionate about it

Could you perhaps expand on this a little? I have a very hard time
understanding why someone would be passionate about something like this.

~~~
fibbra
FYROM is a neighboring country to Greece. For the last 20+ years, the two
countries were on a stalemate on this. Greece did not invest much into their
northern neighbor. Turkey with Erdogan has more economic involvement in FYROM
than Greece, even if there are no traditional links between them.

~~~
newfoundglory
I don't think the question was "what is Macedonia" but more like "please
explain why this matters to you".

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djif
"...ending...": in fact, it has just begun.. There's a long way until this
'agreement' becomes a 'reality' (referendum and constitutional changes in
FYROM and then vote in both parliaments). But most importantly the will of the
people has been ignored so only the near future will show what will actually
happen.

For a historical reference about this issue and the Greek identity of
Macedonia: [https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/6265/was-
alexand...](https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/6265/was-alexander-
the-great-greek-or-macedonian)

~~~
fifnir
Which will of which people was ignored?

~~~
shp0ngle
Both.

Nationalist Greeks are angry and so do nationalist Makedonians.

I would think both countries have more important things to protest about than
name change, but then I don't live on Balkans.

~~~
ben_w
Will of the people != will of the nationalists.

Can’t really say the will of the people is being ignored when referenda are
planned, referenda which one can reasonably still presume will be binding.

~~~
v_lisivka
Both Greece and Macedonia are national countries, so in this case will of the
people == will of the nationalists.

~~~
newfoundglory
Greece probably shouldn't have elected an anti-nationalist governing party
then.

~~~
v_lisivka
Some nations have home: their own country, so in these cases people == nation,
and will of the people == will of the nation.

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emptyfile
A total embarrassment for both nations that it lasted so long.

~~~
fibbra
It has been a big embarrassment.

The 'macedonian' (irl: south slavic) language was recognized as a language in
1977 at a UN standards meeting that took place in Athens.

When Yugoslavia was broken in pieces, the issue of the name for FYROM should
have been resolved then and there. The most promising name was North
Macedonia. Oh the irony.

~~~
NeoBasilisk
I think that relative to the other issues that occurred with other former
Yugoslav republics, a naming dispute was easily ignored at the time.

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shapiro92
I personally do not care about the naming. Name each place / country whatever
you want. What I care about is the political games that are being played
behind it.

People in this thread miss one point about FYROM, they want to use the name
Makedonia with relations to the ancient Makedonas. Which in turns creates
issues with the Greek nation.

Now with the new "deal" they will take the name North Macedonia but they
strictly mention that they do not have any relation to the Ancient Makedonas.
So at the end of the day, why didnt the two goverment or EU or UN take 20
historians and ask them, "guys do they bare the right to have that name?"
Whatever the historians say should be the verdict.

Now as for the name, there is a reason it is being pushed right now. The
balkans are a chessboard for many many years and we will see soon the effects
on "North Macedonia".

~~~
jcranmer
> Now with the new "deal" they will take the name North Macedonia but they
> strictly mention that they do not have any relation to the Ancient
> Makedonas. So at the end of the day, why didnt the two goverment or EU or UN
> take 20 historians and ask them, "guys do they bare the right to have that
> name?" Whatever the historians say should be the verdict.

The name Macedonia expanded to cover the modern country of Macedonia sometime
during the Roman Empire. The historians (well, everyone but the Greeks) would
all agree that there is absolutely no issue with calling the modern country of
Macedonia from a historical naming perspective. Sure, there's confusion
between the Slavic-speaking Macedonians and the Hellenic-speaking Ancient
Macedonians, but this is far from the only instance of the same name referring
to completely different entities.

~~~
Foivos
As you said the Macedonia region covers way more territory than the territory
of the modern country. Add to this the fact the nationalists want the modern
country to eventually gain all these territories. And before you claim, that
these people are minority, having been there it seems that a lot of people
share these feelings. For example you can see everywhere maps where the
borders of the modern country are way more expanded including a huge part of
Greece.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _Macedonia region covers way more territory than the territory of the modern
> country_

Should people in Western Turkey get pissed off about Greece calling itself
Greece?

~~~
DmenshunlAnlsis
Are you aware of Cyprus?

------
Svip
So can Luxembourg claim the Belgian province of Luxembourg back then?

~~~
black_puppydog
Greece didn't claim the country for itself, it claimed the _name_ for it's own
northern province.

~~~
Svip
Greece's logic in disapproving of the name Macedonia is that they fear that
Macedonia (the republic) could some day claim the Greek province of Macedonia.
By that logic, so should Luxembourg (the grand duchy) be able to claim the
Belgian province of the same name.

~~~
seszett
There's a difference though, in that the province of Luxembourg was indeed a
part of Luxembourg (the country) not even 200 years ago. So it would be a much
more legitimate claim.

~~~
Tharkun
I don't think the rich Grand Duchy would be terribly interested in acquiring
the empoverished Belgian province.

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everdev
> By agreeing to rename itself the Republic of North Macedonia the country
> will replace an interim accord under which it joined the UN 23 years ago as
> the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.

> The agreement means Skopje will need to make more than 150 changes to its
> constitution before Greece brings the pact before its own parliament for
> ratification – a task replete with challenges for Zaev, who like Tsipras has
> taken a progressive view on the issue, and faces considerable opposition
> from nationalists. Macedonia’s president, Gjorge Ivanov, has refused to
> support the deal, presaging a stormy few months ahead.

Seems silly that a name change means that legal agreements have to be re-
ratified.

~~~
asymmetric
They should've used a _COUNTRY_NAME_ global variable.

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elorant
In Greece there's quite an uproar for this agreement. 70% of the population is
against it and in the northern parts of the country the government's
acceptance rates have dropped to single digit percentages.

~~~
andmarios
This is just a poll from a right (I would argue even far-right) paper, so
better take it with a grain of salt.

~~~
elorant
True dat

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mishkovski
Relevant:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Macedon...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Macedonia#Macedonian_Question)

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Nihilartikel
If their troll game were more on point, they could have gone with
"SuperGreece".

------
zerostar07
Yet Guardian still calls it macedonia though

~~~
fibbra
It makes you wonder if anything will change when this agreement gets
implemented.

The official name is still FYROM and will switch to North Macedonia when the
agreement starts getting implemented. In a few months or so.

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bovermyer
So, naming is important, then?

Would never have guessed that.

------
risto1
I was born in what was then Yugoslavia (now North Macedonia). In order to get
a good full perspective of this issue I think you have to talk to several
Greeks and North Macedonians. This has been my perspective and experience:

It's mostly split between the population -- half (probably most) of us don't
really seem to care about this issue, the other half feels pretty upset about
it. It's really important to note that not a single Macedonian I've ever
talked to has ever claimed that Ancient Macedonia isn't part of Greek history,
I really don't know where Greeks are getting that from. Almost everyone here
goes to vacation in Greece every year, and concedes when some Greeks say
"Skopje?" to suggest that we're not Macedonians. We just nod and shrug it off,
and say "Yeah, Skopje". Most people really don't care about this, if we did we
wouldn't be going to Greece on vacation or buy Greek products, both of which
we do a fair amount of. Some of us even wonder why we're celebrating a serial
killer at all (Alexander the Great). In order to understand what's going on, I
think you need to separate yourself from what politicians are thinking and
doing compared to what the people are thinking and doing. Also let's face it,
governments love to manipulate group identities to serve their interests.

What Macedonians are upset about is that they feel like Macedonia has a shared
history and Greece doesn't want to acknowledge it, and it's leveraging it's
strong international influence to set us back and/or make us look bad. We're a
small, formerly communist, landlocked country in the Balkans, we barely have
any international influence at all. It's a no-brainer that most countries will
side with Greece, and why there's EU pressure for us to change the name. We
definitely wouldn't be able to dispute Greece's territory, especially since
1952 when Greece became part of NATO. We're seriously no threat to them even
without NATO. I don't think this is about the name or territorial ambitions,
or if it was it was like that a long time ago and is no longer relevant. It's
deeper than that.

People on the thread and the previous one have talked about the Balkan Wars
being relevant to understanding this, and that the then conservative Greek
govt in the mid-20th century suppressed a lot of North Macedonian speaking
peoples living in Greek Macedonia to force them to say that they're Greek and
that they can't speak slavic, much like how Bulgarians forced us to say that
we're Bulgarian and speak Bulgarian when we were occupied by them, or how some
people think we should be part of Greater Albania, or how some Serbians view
us as South Serbians, and that Greece wants to cover this up. There's probably
something there to look into, the Balkans is full of territorial grabs like
that. I don't really know anything about this part of history.

A lot of us just feel like we're being bullied to an extent, and that Greece
is basically being a d*ck about it. Ancient Macedonia has mostly been part of
Greece, but Paeonia (North Macedonia) has for a large part of it's existence,
either been a dependent territory of Ancient Macedonia or has been fully a
part of Ancient Macedonia when it was at the height of it's power. We didn't
just pull the name out of nowhere, we've been called Macedonians since
forever. Some of us that are upset about this think that we shouldn't be
giving in to powerful external forces and that we should just make a stand.
And that by giving in we're showing ourselves as weak and easy to manipulate,
and would affect future negotiations. Some of us others think we're being
stubborn, and that we should be the bigger person and just concede, because
it's a pretty stupid dispute and I agree. A lot of us just don't care, or if
we used to care we're jaded now after all this time and don't care anymore.

We have a lot of shared history, we're neighbors after all. We don't have the
same language, sure, but our traditional dress and textiles looks similar, our
dance is similar, we both say "Opa!", we have similar traditional food. We
used to be the same country several times in history, during the Roman,
Byzantine and Ottoman Empires. I don't think this is really about the name,
it's more about that North Macedonia is mostly made up of slavic people with a
large Albanian-Macedonian population and from a formerly communist country,
and Greeks just don't want to be associated with former communists or slavic
people.

It really sucks because I like a lot about Greek history and culture, one of
my favorite college professors taught Greek Philosophy to me. Greeks gave us
democracy and the best philosophers along with India and China, all of which
is still extremely relevant today. I'm glad we've come to a consensus about
the name. We've both wasted a lot of energy over something pretty stupid, and
we really should be getting along a lot better. We've wasted our time with
what could've been quality time with our families or more richer life
experiences, or improving the human condition. Nationalism, tribalism and
groupthink are all diseases that I hope the 21st century will rid itself of.

~~~
axilmar
Greek here.

The term 'Macedonia' does not refer to a geographical region only. It refers
to a geographical region plus the connection to ancient Greece.

Slavic people like you have no right to use the term Macedonia, because you
are not related to Macedonia, the ancient-Greek derived sub-ethnicity. You
only live in Macedonia, you are not a Macedonian.

History is full of examples of people that moved to other areas but did not
'steal' the history of the area they ended up into.

Turks moved to Ionia, they didn't become Ionians. Greeks moved to Pontos, they
didn't become Turks. Spaniards moved to America, they didn't become Indians.
British moved to Australia, they didn't become Aboriginals.

Just because your progenitors moved to the area of Macedonia, that does not
entitle your people to claim they are Macedonians.

Yes, you are a separate people, you have your own culture, language, you have
become a nation, and we, Greeks, certainly recognize that.

But claiming you are Macedonian and you speak the Macedonian language? that's
a fallacy. You should just use another term.

I am saying all the above in friendly spirit and with the relevant historical
sciences in mind. I am not a Greek nationalist, I only want justice. And in
this case, judging from the historical records, justice means you Slavic
people are not entitled to use the term Macedonia in any form.

The ancient Kingdom of Macedonia was 100% Greek, judging from the historical
records, the written works, the names of places and people, the language used,
the art forms, and the fact that the rest of Greece accepted Macedonians as
Greek.

Beyond justice, what might be the reasons for us Greeks not wanting other
people to take our history? well, here are the reasons:

1) there is the danger that, in the future, the connection between North
Macedonia and Greek Macedonia becomes the geopolitical cause for an unforseen
yet block of power to change borders in the area.

History is full of examples of geopolitical blocks using specific
interpretations of history, culture and geography to cause problems.

2) Greek products from Macedonia can no longer be named 'Macedonian' in other
countries.

I understand it's difficult for you to accept it, but you have been actually
scammed. From the moment you were born, to now, in all your life, you have
been indocrinated to believe you are Macedonian, that you speak Macedonian,
etc. What a shame! this has been done for political purposes.

If only you could let the notion that your people and any form of the word
Macedonia has any connection, the world would be so nice!!!

~~~
jiouur903
This is ridiculous.

You're saying people don't have a right to use a certain name because it meant
something else hundreds of years ago.

Your comment is as flawed as "my culture is not your prom dress." Nobody has a
monopoly on culture.* That's now how culture works. It's always changing and
shifting, and getting borrowed between people.

Go back far enough in history, and you'll see that Greek identity didn't
always exist. Greece was a bunch of independent city states, and people were
more likely to identify with that city state than with the notion of a greater
Greece.

*That is not to say that every borrowing of culture is respectful, or fair. Obviously, whenever you borrow from another culture you must be responsible in how you do so.

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Lucadg
last time I was in Macedonia I saw a man pulling a big plough by hand. No
horse or tractor. Unrelated, I know.

------
everydaypanos
Isn't it ironic that things like Mickey Mouse are super copyrighted that even
if you name your son that you will get in trouble. On the other hand things
like historical references(Macedonia) are up for grabs by anyone and they even
attract supporters of the type "self naming is a right"..

~~~
dalbasal
Disney hasn't had a "regime change", and the regime question was quite clear
at the time Mickey was invented.

Macedonia (Kingdom? Empire? Ancient ethnicity?/dialect?/polity?) had lots of
regime changes. We can't even be sure that the Greeks, at the time of Philip &
Alexander considered Macedonia to be "Greece." You could argue either way. You
could also argue that half the world is the "real" Macedonia. Bagdad has a
decent claim.

I can see how Greece sees it, that naming may lead to territorial claims. That
aside, Names are just names. I don't think this name is a crime against
logic/history.

This is like insisting that what gay "really" means is happy. It's neither
true or false statement. It's nonsensical.

~~~
trab
>> We can't even be sure that the Greeks, at the time of Philip & Alexander
considered Macedonia to be "Greece."

This is plain wrong. There is absolutely no dispute what so ever among
historians about the Greek origin of Macedonia. The new country of Northern
Macedonia in no way disputes this either. Comments like yours are the prime
proof that what happened is very very wrong.

This is a quote from Wikipedia about Alexander the great.

>> Alexander was awarded the generalship of Greece and used this >> authority
to launch his father's pan-Hellenic project to lead >> the Greeks in the
conquest of Persia.

~~~
dalbasal
If the wars had gone differently, Greek historians would have recorded a
glorious defeat of the northern barbarians by the Greeks. Alexander won, and
so the story features "awarding a generalship."

I'm not making the case for either narratives. I'm making the case that both
narratives are fictions, a symbolic language narrating a one-damned-thing-
after-another truth. I don't think Alexander/Macedonia was "really" Greek or
not Greek. I also think this meant different things at different times. Modern
nationalism is a very dominant paradigm in our times. It is new though. Even
though it's hard to imagine it, "nationality" was not a dominant paradigm
either for personal identity or politics throughout most of history. Alexander
didn't seem to give much of a damn about nationality.

~~~
fibbra
Ancient Macedonia was part of Ancient Greece.

Yes, the city-states have been fighting all the time, just like Athens and
Sparta. But they have been part of Ancient Greece.

In the case of FYROM (still the official name until the agreement gets
implemented soonish), they have been appropriating the Greek identity. That
was not just some individuals at FYROM, it was the whole political apparatus
of FYROM since the 90s.

~~~
dalbasal
Again, these are narratives.

Was ancient Libya/Carthage or even Spain a part of ancient Lebanon/Israel?
They were certainly a part of the same culture, in the same way "Hellenic
Culture" was a thing. They spoke the same Language, shared customs and myths
and such.

I understand that if Jordan remained themselves "Canaan" or "Phoenicia" then
Israel, Palestine, & Lebanon might object. Territorial implications, etc. It's
not made up though. Jordan has a "right" to that legacy too. That language and
culture were spoken and practiced in Amman as well as Tyre even if Tyre is
what we think of as the original "hub."

------
onetimemanytime
Greece has objected because they can; they have a veto on new EU members and
have made this a red line. Other EU countries technically can tell Greece to
accept Macedonia as it is (was) or no aid etc, but that's an extreme.

Considering that "Macedonia" extends also into Greece it's not unreasonable to
differentiate, into Northern and the other part. Without wanting to start a
war, today's "Macedonians" are mostly slavs, and Albanians make about 25-30%.

