
Ride-hailing apps have allowed more binging and increased demand for bartenders - js2
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2019/11/19/after-uber-arrives-heavy-drinking-increases
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dannykwells
I feel like this article disingenuous. Uber has reduced drunk driving
accidents by 62%!! (in Portland, but likely similar for other cities) That's
huge.

A 10% increase in heavy drinking seems small by comparison. Why not focus on
that fact? Well, because it makes Uber look good, for one thing. Can't have
that.

~~~
pessimizer
> A 10% increase in heavy drinking seems small by comparison. Why not focus on
> that fact?

10% seeming smaller than 62% is not a _fact_ that anyone should be focusing
on.

There are actual numbers that can be compared in context; the fact that a
percentage of one thing is expressed as a larger number than the percentage of
another thing doesn't mean it's more important. Very few people die of drunk
driving accidents (as compared to the number of people who drink), so if 20
fewer people in an area per year die from drunk driving, but incidents of
binge drinking in that area increase from 1 million to 1.1 million, it's not
simple to say that the outcome has been positive. Maybe 21 more people get
esophageal cancer. Maybe 21 more cases of domestic violence end in a homicide.

That being said, this is a wealth effect and inevitable if you're making
progress. People are drinking (out) more because their perception is that with
rideshares it has become safer (easier to get home.) A cure for HIV would
cause an increase in the spread of other sexually transmitted diseases, for
example, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't cure HIV.

One material difference I can see between rideshares and a cab is that
rideshares are often cheaper because 1) they are subsidized by investors and
2) they can be shared. This doesn't say anything interesting about Uber; if
you wanted to make cabs cheaper, you can tax them less or subsidize them. The
other, which I think might be more important, is that many rideshare users
don't feel the need to buy a car, and that the rideshare demographic is
largely similar to the binge drinking at bars/clubs demographic. Of course,
taxing cars or the parking around bars/clubs could have the same effect.

~~~
sigwinch28
I agree with you on all but pointing out the cancer rates.

If we're looking at it purely from a statistical point of view, then yes, the
numbers might not look that good in favour of "more drinking + ridesharing is
better than less drinking + drink driving".

Ethically, I consider people drinking themselves to an early grave of their
own free will to be "less bad" than a drunk driver killing someone else on the
road or a drunk person committing a violent crime against another person.

I make this point in the context of the rest of what you've said, though,
which raises good discussion points about "should we fix X really bad thing if
it leads to people doing more of Y maybe-less-bad thing?"

~~~
strbean
Ethically weighting deaths is a dangerous road. What would you say to
"Innocent deaths from drunk driving go to 0, but suicides increase 1000-fold"?

~~~
sigwinch28
This is a question I don't feel equipped to answer, despite having asked
myself many times.

I think it's widely accepted (and I believe) that "drinking + driving +
killing someone else = very bad", and that "drinking + assaulting = very bad",
but I don't think I know enough about the health implications of drinking.

If a person really was drinking themselves to death of their own free will
(i.e. they are aware of the physical health effects, and they do not
experience any addictive effects from alcohol), then I don't see an ethical
issue with them choosing to do that.

But if suicide rates go up, why could that be?

My opinion is that if someone who chose to drink (i.e. knew the risks and was
not addicted) accidentally fell off a bridge or accidentally shot themselves
with their own gun, it is _their own fault_.

When someone is suffering in terms of mental health such that they are
addicted to alcohol, or are depressed, or feeling suicidal, then I just don't
know. It feels to me like that although the alcohol is not the root cause in
these situations it definitely could've pushed them over the edge. I think
this is analogous to "someone who felt suicidal committed suicide after
another person told them to jump off a building"... I really don't know where
I stand on the issue.

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xt00
Yea the tipping point for self driving cars will be when it can drive you home
while drunk legally. Probably will be made legal first someplace like South
Korea — there you can easily pay somebody to show up with their buddy on a
scooter to drive your car home for you with you in the passenger seat. The guy
on the scooter follows you and picks up his buddy. I forget what the pricing
was but it was something like 2x the cost of a taxi. So wasn’t actually too
crazy.

~~~
mailslot
There was an affordable service that would drive your car home for you. The
problem leading to its failure, as I understand it, is that drunk people that
needed it were too wasted to remember that it existed.

~~~
justinator
That's funny in a sad way. I do remember that being a thing ~10 or 15 years
ago - they were at least demo'ing it at one of the blocks in my city where a
large concentration of bars could be found. I was very curious on the
technology of their fold-able scooters (how quaint given Lime at al)

I could also imagine having to drive a drunk person's car home would be
somehow risky, given that you have no idea how said person will act with their
property.

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sna1l
There are probably a lot of factors that have contributed to the increase in
high risk drinking, but even if we ignore that, I feel like the trade-off
being made here is acceptable.

People who maybe prior couldn't imbibe due to no public transport options etc,
have decided now that with ride-hailing apps that this is an available option.
Whether or not you agree with the choice they are making, the fact that they
even have the choice seems worthwhile.

~~~
BurningFrog
I'm very happy with a tradeoff where people damage their own health instead of
innocent people on the road.

I also wonder how much of this increase in drinking at bars is drinking that
would have happened at home previously.

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ComputerGuru
Maybe now that there are viable alternatives to getting to and from home/work
the law here in the States will catch up to saner legislation elsewhere and
properly punish drunk driving instead of a slap on the wrist for the first few
offenses “don’t do it again but here is your license, you can keep driving.”

~~~
rpmisms
Allow me to give the standard response about how driving is necessary here.
DUIs are not cheap, not convenient, but someone shouldn't become unable to
provide for their family based on one.

~~~
disgruntledphd2
I live in Ireland. Driving is essential here, unless you live in a major city.

Nonetheless, we clamp down hard on drink-driving, to such an extent that I was
massively shocked by how acceptable it was in the US.

~~~
rpmisms
Sounds like Arizona here. Penalties are extremely harsh there.

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oftenwrong
found the paper:
[https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3484845](https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3484845)

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duxup
I wonder about other changes as various things change.

Could self driving cars mean more driving? / car related demand?

I drive my family around all the time. I'm not a fan of it, but if my car
drove itself I'd probabbly be quite happy to plan additional / longer driving
trips. I'd certainly like to setup my minivan as a series of mini desks
everyone could sit at .. I could do lots of things during trips...

~~~
zaroth
My kids have a lot of after school activities which my wife spends hours a day
bringing them to and fro, even when they are more than capable of doing the
activity entirely independently and don’t expect to be watched by a parent
during the activity.

For some reason it’s deemed “not appropriate” for them to Uber to and fro.
Occasionally there will be parents who we can carpool with, but almost always
it ends up being a huge time suck to drive them, wait around, and then bring
them back.

I think it’s not so much an issue of them being in a car alone, it’s the
random stranger driving them that makes it hard for a, e.g. 10-16 year old to
get around on their own if they can’t walk, bike, or take public transit.

So my guess is that a self-driving car will be more acceptable to bring kids
around the suburbs to all their after-school activities. Which is a massive
productivity boost for the parents, basically freeing up an entire human for 4
hours a day.

~~~
hombre_fatal
It's not uncommon for wealthier families here in Guadalajara to have their
13-year-old daughter Uber around.

We sure do like our coddling in the USA, though, where it's even safer.

An example of someone writing about the problem:
[https://www.thecoddling.com/](https://www.thecoddling.com/) \-- Makes a good
case how instilling these ideas in our youth that everyone is out to get them
comes back to bite them (and us all) in the ass as they enter adulthood.

An example of an org trying to fix it:
[https://letgrow.org/](https://letgrow.org/)

Of course, a self-driving car is even better than an Uber driver for various
reasons, not the least because ape-driven vehicles aren't particularly safe.

~~~
duxup
I feel like choosing to uber or not is a big distance away from "coddling".

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luckydata
Jokes' on them, the Bay Area responded to this new challenge by having no
place to go drink or have fun. Problem solved!

~~~
par
wait what? I live in Bay Area and can confirm there are a lot of places people
drink and have fun.

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omarhaneef
I will note one cheerful conclusion: so many people care so much about not
drinking and driving. (Consider that 30% of the people don't drink, and
another 30% drink rarely, these statistics are a credit to the species.)

I look forward to people pointing out the flaws in this reasoning.

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lazerpants
I feel like there is a huge demographic issue underlying these numbers. The
cohort of young adults in the US probably peaked around 2012, so more binge
drinking is likely caused by that alone. (I didn't read the paper the article
is based on so maybe my point is covered there)

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andybak
Whilst Uber and the like have improved the cab situation in UK cities, it's
hardly been revolutionary. It's become a bit more convenient and (sometimes) a
bit cheaper.

What was the situation like in places like Portland before Uber? Were old-
school cabs just unavailable or just really awful?

~~~
ben_jones
Not Portland but I lived/drank in Eugene for awhile when Uber/Lyft were still
banned (IIRC they've since been let in). Outside of metro areas there is only
one answer to that question in my opinion, lots of drunk driving.

~~~
andybak
> Outside of metro areas

I guess this is key. Most places in the UK aren't that far from a town.

Does "metro area" have a precise definition? Would an small to medium UK town
count?

~~~
ben_jones
In this context it's about mass public transit options and walking distance
between a safe residence and wherever "downtown" is. Eugene and adjacent
Springfield combine for a population of ~220,000 over ~88 square kilometers
with limited late night transportation options other than sketchy and
unreliable taxis.

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mywacaday
Imagine what fully self driving cars will do, uber without the cost

~~~
Jamwinner
Why would you assume there is no cost? Either you hve to buy it, or rent it as
a service. You are still paying either way.

~~~
scrumbledober
through scaling the cost to the provider should be much lower, which means
either the cost to the consumer will either be less, or there will be a great
opportunity for competition.

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UnFleshedOne
Good thing there is no reasonable public transit in US and no plans to improve
it. Imagine the amount of binge drinking that would ensue!

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gadders
I always thought that once self-driving cars are fully autonomous, pub/bar
business will go through the roof.

~~~
cardiffspaceman
Concur in part. When I am on vacation under the right circumstances, such as
multi-day Disney visit or cruise, I do drink more. Some people would probably
drink more just because it would be safe, but I think a lot of people would
dial it back again due to hangovers interfering with work.

Maybe not "through the roof" but definitely a sustained increase.

~~~
gadders
I should have said - I'm talking about the UK here. More of a drinking culture
than, say, the US :-)

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rconti
It's odd how each graph shows a dip at -1 year.

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philip1209
Correlation is not causation.

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algaeontoast
Alcohol consumption is horrible for public health though :(

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BlackSwab
Correlation does not mean causation

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dwoozle
Can confirm, definitely see many more drunk assholes loitering outside the
bars on my street.

