
Alexa, what are you doing with kids' data? - joeyespo
https://commercialfreechildhood.org/blog/alexa-what-are-you-doing-kids-data
======
ve55
Is there a good reason to put minors in a separate group here, aside from
legal aspects or that it just 'feels' like a worse offense to the casual
reader?

I ask because a lot of common arguments in this area don't seem to apply here
that well. I'm not sure adults and adolescents on average have that much
better of an understanding of how technology like this works in general (in
terms of what is tracked and what your rights to that data are) - so
mentioning that the kid didn't consent doesn't seem to change much, because
adults using this technology don't understand what is being done behind the
scenes either.

~~~
Barrin92
If adults don't understand the technology and kids don't consent, isn't that
exactly a scenario where we should at least protect the children, given that
its widely accepted in most countries that children can't actually enter
commercial relationships on their own?

~~~
ve55
While protecting the kids would be nice, it results in a large inconsistency
to apply it here, given the level of control we allow parents to have over
their kids in many areas. For example, parents have near-complete jurisdiction
over the diet of their children and can therefore cause significant health
issues at their own discretion (or just due to lack of nutritional knowledge).
This is (at least at the current moment) a significantly larger issue for kids
than if Amazon has personal data on them or not. Accordingly, it seems strange
for us to want the government to intervene with respect to data on children,
but not with respect to a child's diet.

~~~
hrktb
Government can and mostly do intervene in respect to child diet as well.

~~~
ve55
I said 'near-complete' in attempt to include edge cases. Most parents
definitely make their own decisions as to what to feed their kids rather than
letting the government make them, just as they decide what to teach their
kids.

~~~
hrktb
It wildly depends on where you live I guess, but I expect a large portion of
kids to eat lunch at school, and school meals are regulated.

------
randomdrake
The time for regulating data collection for minors at a Federal level is
now[1]. I went to purchase an Amazon Echo a couple of days ago, and was
surprised to see the children's version on sale for less than the current Echo
Dot. It's currently listed as unavailable[2], perhaps because of the findings
explored in this article.

I wouldn't be surprised if they were trying to liquidate.

I think it was $39.95 for the children's version and $49.95 for the regular
version.

There were a few pieces of dark UX/UI that hid a couple of _very_ important
differentiations that made me nope out.

1\. The service automagically came with something called Amazon FreeTime[3].
It's advertised as free everything for your child; books, tv, music, etc. in
exchange, of course it would kindly listen and "learn" to offer better things.
Nope.

2\. The device was last generation's hardware with a nice cover. It wasn't
even technologically up to snuff with the current Echo Dot.

Basically I wrote it off as a kid's tracking and advertising device and
purchased a regular new one.

Glad my Spidey senses were tingling.

[1] -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advertising_to_children#Histor...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advertising_to_children#History_of_advertising_to_children)

[2] - [https://www.amazon.com/Echo-Kids-smart-speaker-
Alexa/dp/B077...](https://www.amazon.com/Echo-Kids-smart-speaker-
Alexa/dp/B077JFPCPX)

[3] - [https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-FreeTime-Unlimited-Monthly-
Sub...](https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-FreeTime-Unlimited-Monthly-
Subscription/dp/B01I499BNA)

~~~
pietroglyph
> The time for regulating data collection for minors at a Federal level is now

Are you aware of the Children's Online Privacy Protection Act (COPPA)? It was
passed in 1998, and this article specifically says that they believe Amazon is
in violation of it.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children's_Online_Privacy_Prot...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children's_Online_Privacy_Protection_Act)

~~~
randomdrake
I am.

I guess it wasn't clear that I was also implying there may be something wrong
when one of the largest companies in the world can sell ?? number of devices
aimed specifically at children, without this regulation being enforced/checked
for ?? amount of time.

Either enforcement, or regulation failed. I think we've got a lot of
mechanisms for enforcement, as this article is bringing light to the necessity
of.

So, perhaps the aforementioned "regulation" is not enough, and properly
written regulation that can be enforced with some regularity and haste is
required considering this is for children.

------
macawfish
My poor mother bought all of her adult children smart speakers for Christmas.
None of us accepted them. People just don't realize what's going on behind the
scenes.

~~~
52-6F-62
Heh. My mom did the same thing a couple of years ago—the Google Home Mini.

We played some trivia for a while but it sits there unplugged until we want to
use it... which is rarely. The last time has to have been over a year ago...

~~~
eitland
My Google Home Mini (that I got for Christmas) sits unplugged but it is a very
good speaker even if I turn off the mic.

If I can just get myself to accept that the mic is off when I have turned it
off I might actually start using it more.

BTW: Has anyone verified this?

~~~
nydel
without altering the hardware there might be no way to verify anything very
meaningful

------
steve-benjamins
They also made this video which is helpful:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlraB-
zflv8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlraB-zflv8)

The video shows that data wasn't deleted on the Echo Dot even after a parent
tried to delete it. Which is bad. (Though there's a bigger point they are
making— that parents should be able to control privacy for their children, not
Amazon.)

------
macawfish
If I had an echo I'd make it respond to "Jeff Bezos", just to remind myself of
who I'm really inviting into my life like that.

"Jeff Bezos, can you put some mood music on?"

"Jeff Bezos, get me a good Mac and Cheese recipe"

"Jeff Bezos, I'd like to order some Tide pods"

~~~
rchaud
That is paranoid and absurd. It's much more likely that the person "reviewing
the audio data for quality assurance" will be some gig economy worker hired
through Mechanical Turk.

------
emptybits
Yes. But also: Parents, why are you letting your kids play with hardware long
known to upload and preserve this data?

~~~
TeMPOraL
Because parents don't understand any of that. And it's not by accident -
Google, Amazon, et al. do their best for people to _not_ understand that.

~~~
ericd
Maybe it’s time for some viral explainer videos on Facebook.

------
cybersnowflake
If anything I think adults should be more concerned about their own privacy
than kids. WGAF that Uncle Sam/Aunt Madison Ave knows that Timmy binged 10
episodes of Spongebob. Adults on the other hand have more damaging secrets
like affairs or confidential technical knowledge.

I kinda get that you don't want AI to learn how to manipulate kids but still
this is a larger concern than just 'think of the children'.

------
OrgNet
and kids just enter fake ages so they get treated like adults anyways
(complete privacy breach)

~~~
TeMPOraL
Kids have entered fake ages since the dawn of the Internet, because a lot of
content that's interesting to teenagers - violence, nudity, drugs, offensive
language - has law-mandated age restrictions.

~~~
OrgNet
Does it make it more legal for those companies to spy on those kids?

------
carimura
maybe the data was cached to server it quicker?

------
battletested
> Alexa, what are you doing with kids' data?

Uhhh, collecting, storing and trying to make profit with it at some point in
time? I still wonder why people don't realise this when they buy such system,
it's so obvious.

~~~
ronsor
While it's easy to believe free services like Google are siphoning your data,
it's harder to connect that a device you _pay for_ is collecting and selling
your data.

~~~
obenn
I find the best way to convey to people the reason why these smart speakers
and devices are so cheap, and seem to be on sale almost perpetually.

A growing number of smart devices are being sold at below-cost, using a
combination of data harvesting, ads and a proprietary app/skills store to make
a profit for the maker after the sale.

~~~
soulofmischief
Don't forget about the ginormous TCL Roku televisions with "opt-in" Active
Content Recognition. Now everyone feels they can afford a 70" TV and don't
think twice about it.

~~~
scarejunba
I mean, they think that because they can. It's a great feature.

~~~
soulofmischief
Except they don't understand the full scope of the purchase. All of their
viewing data is now being recorded.

I can afford tons of things when they are _subsidized_. That's why coal, etc.
still seem so sustainable and we think we can afford them as well.

~~~
scarejunba
I think I am fully on-board with giving people the same option Kindle does:

* Offer price with view tracking

* Offer price without view tracking

I cannot argue that this shouldn't be clearly visible, and I think, for the
benefit of the consumer this can't be a ridiculous matrix of all the different
kinds of tracking. Opt-in or pay the higher price. That sounds fair. But "make
it so no one can opt-in": no. That is oppressive nonsense from rich people who
would go "How much does a TV cost, man? Ten thousand dollars? Just buy it."

~~~
soulofmischief
Kindle offers advertisements at a discount. I purchased one such model.

AFAIK Amazon is not keeping a remote log of every file accessed on my Kindle.
Can you point to something saying otherwise?

> I cannot argue that this shouldn't be clearly visible, and I think, for the
> benefit of the consumer this can't be a ridiculous matrix of all the
> different kinds of tracking.

Visibility isn't really an issue either way if it's achieved normality.

~~~
scarejunba
I said "like the Kindle" in that it's clearly advertised what you're getting
in the two different flavours. I didn't mean they track you. I was hoping to
emphasise the clarity.

~~~
soulofmischief
The issue is that anyone who willingly participates in Active Content
Recognition systems has made themselves ineligible for revolution.

If they ever start watching anti-government propaganda, the government will
know.

We've all read 1984. We know what happens.

~~~
scarejunba
The problem will always be your fellow man who believes the revolution is
evil. I am convinced of this. In the face of that, this stuff is nothing.

1984 was the mid 20th century take. I'm pretty sure any current take would be
focused on people's desire for authoritarianism.

~~~
soulofmischief
So we should just go ahead and put always-on vidscreens in everyone's house
then? Because people don't know any better?

It's an education problem. Pointing at an ignorant man and then claiming he
should get what he desires is ridiculous.

------
scarejunba
The "think of the children" nonsense was so annoying as a child. Paternalistic
bullshit that tried to stop me from using the Internet meaningfully.
Fortunately, everyone decided to comply with pointless age gates and, as a
child, I had a full and complete experience.

I'm a well-balanced individual now and I always wondered how people who were
once kids and had loads of fun would lock down shit to other kids when they
grew older.

Now I see this shit live. We used to think it was the previous generation that
mollycoddled kids and instead we now have the perpetual hovermom because
people are flipping out over this "think of the children" crap.

Imagine if I had had to have had an ID mailed in to register on sites just to
discuss sci-fi just because someone might mention sex there. Wow, not living
in America, I might never have even been able to discuss anything.

~~~
mixmastamyk
Children are under our protection, and don't yet have full rights. It's
annoying to tweens, but not a bad thing.

Personally due to age I didn't get on the internet until age ~25 or so. And
what I saw there I'll never "unsee" if you catch my drift. Would I choose
expose that to my ten year old self now? Definitely not. It's just not
necessary.

We may have survived intact, but the better question is, was it beneficial to
you? I can't say that seeing those things at ten would have improved my life
in any meaningful way. Didn't even mention the predator angle, while
overblown, is a thing. Data harvesting FTW.

Less is more.

~~~
scarejunba
Of course "less is more" for everyone else. That's been the mantra of every
group of people restricting rights to individuals. "Don't play video games.
It'll make you violent" ; "You can't watch that movie. It'll make you a
rapist" ; "Don't read that book. It'll turn you into a traitor"

No, thanks. I had the Internet from the time I was 10. It made me the capable
person I am, gave me the incredible career I have today, and showed me all the
things I could become. Horizons were crossed that I never dreamed possible.
Many of the people I knew never saw these things and they would kill to have
my life. I am absolutely committed to a free and open Internet.

Of course, the puritans are against this. The puritans are establishmentarians
and authoritarians. You can never do anything because they're _protecting_
you. Oh so very precious, the protection. No, enough with the shackles. The
next generation has a right to grow without you cutting their legs out from
under them.

~~~
mixmastamyk
Oh please, we're talking about children, not adults.

As I said I got on the internet at 25 and had a front row seat to the
explosion of the web. Took to it like a duck to water. Considering all the
time wasted, I didn't miss a thing waiting. It didn't harm me one bit.

You know what else I did in my twenties? Saw the world. Was much more
compelling than online friends can ever be. Recommended.

You sound young, give it time and your perspective will change.

~~~
scarejunba
Are you trying to act sophisticated and condescending on the Internet? The
added perspective of your travels should have taught you not to do that,
surely.

~~~
mixmastamyk
Not after I listened to your diatribe about exposing children to filth and
data tracking. Get outside was the point.

