
CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens - pera
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jan/17/cia-rendition-flights-north-carolina-citizens-commission
======
IIAOPSW
That's real optimistic of the Guardian but somehow I doubt there's all that
much grass roots support against rendition flights. We live in an age where
"Muslim ban" sounds like appropriate policy to about half the population.

In Democracy the people get the government they deserve. Guess we really don't
deserve human rights and habeus corpus.

~~~
knz
> We live in an age where "Muslim ban" sounds like appropriate policy to about
> half the population. In Democracy the people get the government they
> deserve. Guess we really don't deserve human rights and habeus corpus.

So speak up. Educate your fellow citizens as to why these issues are
important. Break through their media bubble/snowglobe and have multiple
meaningful conversations that go deeper than the talking points spewed out by
media personalities. Much of the country is purple not red and blue - if you
can have a respectful conversation with someone you can find common ground on
these issues.

And show up on election day.

The First Amendment exists for a reason - "we get the government we deserve"
applies to those of us who chose to stay informed as well if we don't respond
to the challenges of the day.

~~~
IIAOPSW
>So speak up. Educate your fellow citizens as to why these issues are
important. Break through their media bubble/snowglobe and have multiple
meaningful conversations that go deeper than the talking points spewed out by
media personalities.

Have you ever actually gotten that to work? Have you personally ever changed a
single persons mind? Not trying to be facetious, but I'm incredulous.

~~~
sanderjd
I largely share your incredulity, but allow me to make a more optimistic
counterpoint.

I frequently change my mind, which is proof that one or more people out there
are changing at least one person's mind. And here's the thing: in nearly all
cases, the person or, more often, the _people_ who change my mind never know
it. I am often stubborn in the moment and unwilling to admit I've been swayed.
More often, I don't realize that I have been swayed until I revisit the
conversation over the next months, while adding in new information from other
conversations or things I'm reading with a developing perspective. Sometimes
my mind changes so slowly that I don't even notice it did until someone quotes
back to me the now (obviously! objectively!) wrong thing I used to think.

My point is this: you may be changing minds without knowing it. And another
point: even if you aren't, you are likely benefitting personally from having
meaningful conversations with people.

~~~
1024core
> I frequently change my mind,

Don't take this as a personal comment, but the ability to change ones mind
based on changing facts is one of the characteristics of liberals.
Conservatives, on the other hand, by definition are known for not changing
their minds.

~~~
DoofusOfDeath
Perhaps we have multiple definitions of "conservative" in circulation. The
definition with which I'm most familiar does not include a propensity for
dogmatism

~~~
1024core
I dunno, if you just go by the dictionary definition[1]:

 _disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions, etc., or to restore
traditional ones, and to limit change._

[1]
[http://www.dictionary.com/browse/conservative](http://www.dictionary.com/browse/conservative)

~~~
DoofusOfDeath
I actually agree with the definition you posted. The distinction I'm drawing
is this:

The definition you posted above cover's the characteristics of a person's
actions, strategies, etc.

In contrast, I understood your earlier post to be about conservative's
epistemic habits.

Those two things are certainly connected, but aren't identical.

------
RcouF1uZ4gsC
Which is worse: torture or killing? It seems that with all the attention that
torture got, the Obama administration basically stopped trying to capture
people alive to interrogate them and instead just sent drone based missiles to
just kill anyone suspected of terrorism.

~~~
rdtsc
> Obama administration basically stopped trying to capture people alive to
> interrogate them and instead just sent drone based missiles to just kill
> anyone suspected of terrorism.

Not only that but after receiving a Nobel Peace Prize he proceeded to engage
in drone warfare. Just in 2016 he dropped more then 20k bombs, in countries
which we were not even at war with. Many in Africa. It was surprising how
little flak he got for it. Indeed when he was elected in 2008 he got the best
marketer of year award [http://adage.com/article/moy-2008/obama-wins-ad-age-s-
market...](http://adage.com/article/moy-2008/obama-wins-ad-age-s-marketer-
year/131810/) and he presented a great image.

> Which is worse: torture or killing?

It is kind of a false choice. But let's go with it, Obama effectively picked
both. Anyone remember how he promised to close Guantanamo? Well it is still
open. He picked both killing and continued torture. Yet people still idolize
him and think he was so great. Again, that's the power of propaganda and
marketing at work, AdAge's award was very much on point, better then Coke,
Nike and Apple.

~~~
jonnybgood
> Just in 2016 he dropped more then 20k bombs, in countries which we were not
> even at war with. Many in Africa. It was surprising how little flak he got
> for it

Do you know who he dropped bombs on and why? You make it sound like he dropped
bombs for the fun of it.

~~~
berdario
I'm not sure about the parent's stats and all the factions that would've been
the targets...

But those who actually got bombs dropped on them... could be literally anyone

[http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/i-am-on-the-us-kill-
list...](http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/i-am-on-the-us-kill-list-this-is-
what-it-feels-like-to-be-hunted-by-drones-a6980141.html)

[http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-air-
stri...](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-air-strike-
mosul-200-civilians-killed-isis-northern-iraq-pentagon-central-command-
islamic-state-a7651451.html)

------
maxxxxx
The value systems of the people running this must be severely distorted. Can't
torture at home so let's fly people to some dictatorship to get it done there.
I guess it's the same mindset that caused a democratically elected president
in Iran to be overthrown and replaced by a dictator in order to save freedom
and democracy.

~~~
pmoriarty
_" Can't torture at home so let's fly people to some dictatorship to get it
done there."_

People are tortured in the US all the time. All the time.

Ordinary prisons are well-known example, where one can be subject to solitary
confinement, denial of medical care, subjection to temperature extremes,
beatings, and rape so common that it's the subject of the most common prison-
related jokes.

Military recruits are often tortured to "toughen them up", as punishment, or
ostensibly to prepare them for possible torture at the hands of "The Enemy".

Hazings at colleges and universities are often effectively torture.

~~~
jonnybgood
> Military recruits are often tortured to "toughen them up", as punishment, or
> ostensibly to prepare them for possible torture at the hands of "The Enemy".

That couldn’t be further from the truth. It use to be that drill
instructors/MTI can hit you. Not anymore. The worse they can do to you is yell
in your face and give you a spit shower. They're even required to give you 8
hours of sleep except in special cases. There are many other rules as well and
these rules are a big deal these days.

------
fouc
>“It turned out I knew two of the three Aero principals well,” Caison said
during a tour around the airport the day before the commission’s hearings
convened. “These were prominent, well-respected business people in our
community. Their children and mine were schoolmates. I baked their gingerbread
houses for Christmas.”

I had a crazy thought that Caison could have organized an intervention for
each. Involve close friends & family & neighbours and sit down with one
principal at a time. Encourage them to come face to face with the morality of
this.

A small private non-confrontational intervention could perhaps bring about
quicker change if the principal's suddenly realize their friends & family &
neighbours are aware of the shady aspects of their work.

------
oldsklgdfth
This may seem like a naive question, but what is the point of rendition
flights?

Just to get around constitutional rights? Seems like with all that money and
effort you could just do it here.

EDIT: I don't condone torture. I think it's sad the way we treat each other.

~~~
pc86
Yes, "just" to get around constitutional rights. The constitution applies to
everyone within the United States, citizen or otherwise. Removing them from US
soil simplifies the equation somewhat.

~~~
oldsklgdfth
So they are violating the law of the "land", by literally going to different
land.

This sounds a lot like corporate/beaurocratic cover-your-ass policy that is
there so you don't get fired.

It just seems to me that someone like the CIA could torture in some basement
in area-51 and they would still be untouchable.

In a weird way this kinda speaks a bit to the power of the constitution or the
respect that it holds. Even if you are basically violating it.

~~~
stordoff
I wonder if it's more logistical than legal - extraordinary rendition, by its
nature, already exists outside of the law. It is, however, easier to hide
someone outside of the country (from legal representatives etc.) and deny
their existence, it's easier to hide the facilities, and it's easier to find
skilled and willing practitioners of torture in a country which practices it
more widely (boy, that's a fun thought :/).

It's also face-saving to some extent - it lets the leadership say "We do not
torture" accurately and with a straight face, and I believe it's _slightly_
less risky legally (knowing torture is likely rather than actively ordering).

That said, I've no doubt some government agency could use torture with
impunity on US soil though (especially when you consider local police forces
have come somewhat close to doing exactly that. See, e.g.,
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Police_Department#Homa...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Police_Department#Homan_Square)
).

~~~
oldsklgdfth
The whole thing is just so absurd and a little ridiculous. It's like some spy
novel narrative where they can just burn money and fly around the world to
torture a handful of people for information.

It would be more reasonable if it was done with a roll of duck tape at a
random motel-6 in the middle of nowhere.

------
asmithmd1
The company that "owned" the plane they used had the same address as a small
law firm in Dedham, MA - a town that borders Boston:

[https://www.upi.com/Mass-lawfirm-linked-to-extradition-
jet/2...](https://www.upi.com/Mass-lawfirm-linked-to-extradition-
jet/24071101762289/)

------
TaylorGood
The Boeing in discussion was/is for sale:
[https://www.insidehook.com/nation/old-cia-jet-
sale](https://www.insidehook.com/nation/old-cia-jet-sale)

------
ionised
I can't see how this kind of thing doesn't just create more terrorists.

Even if I was totally innocent and this happened to me and was eventually
released, the first thing on my mind would be revenge in some form.

Kudos CIA. Creating new enemies wherever none may be found, throughout this
last century.

------
landonxjames
Oh wow this is shocking, I grew up less than 10 minutes from this airport and
had no idea the CIA was using it.

------
zpatel
Its 21st century, and we still need nukes and torture to feel secure..what a
shame.

