
If macOS High Sierra shows your password instead of the password hint - 0x0
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208168
======
thought_alarm
How did Disk Utility.app go from being one of the great built-in OS X
utilities to the embarrassing amateurish shit show that it is today?

Perhaps the same people responsible for the file system engineering are also
responsible for developing this user-facing application. They might excel at
low level system engineering, but they are utterly unqualified to develop a
high level GUI application.

Spend 5 minutes with the app and you'll find a half dozen bugs and amateurish
mistakes. It's baffling, and it's been a problem for two years now.

~~~
BRAlNlAC
I really don't get why they have allowed this crippled GUI for so long. I
understand that they want to make it simple for low level users, but that
seems like a bad excuse in this case as low level users aren't even going to
use Disk Utility, just like they aren't going to use Automater. It shows a
blindness to their market, i think. Anybody who is on my "free IT" list for
the last few years has been receiving a Mac when it's time to upgrade. The
tech support is night and day, and problems are easy to fix thanks to built
in, easy to use screen sharing, a robust OS, and well rounded modern hardware.
At the same time I'm not a unix guru, I don't know Bash that well and when I'm
forced to use it I spend a lot of time reading. I hate that they keep hiding
more and more commands behind Bash precisely because it makes it significantly
more difficult to do what I'll call "prosumer IT". One of the things that
really sold me on Macs was when Disk Utility managed to repair a USB that was
completely bricked on my windows machine. As of MacOS Sierra, I now have use
bash to fix corrupted drives as they aren't displayed in the GUI. Such a pain
and such a step backwards.

~~~
derefr
There are times that installing macOS requires a trip through Disk Utility, is
why. Disk Utility.app is _basically_ made for the single use case of "modify
the system to make macOS installable."

The thing to understand, is that everyone inside Apple uses diskutil(8), not
Disk Utility.app. diskutil(8) is the "canonical" way to do almost everything
related to Disk management on macOS, the same way diskmgmt.msc is on Windows.
Everything else is a secondary "convenience" view to just allow certain
workflows (like installing macOS without overwriting things, or unlocking a
FileVault volume with a master password to install macOS on it) to be
accomplished more easily—like the Properties view of a disk drive in Windows.

If there are other "convenience views" of disk management that you think would
be helpful, why not make them into an app and sell it? One my favourite macOS
programs, DaisyDisk, is basically just such a convenience view. People are
willing to buy these—especially as a gift for their "prosumer" friends. Apple
can't predict every use-case that a prosumer might want an accelerator for,
but the free market probably can.

~~~
kccqzy
diskutil(8) is not that great either. Like reading passwords from the terminal
without bothering to turn off echo.

------
planetjones
The lack of attention to detail by Apple recently e.g. code reviews, in house
testing is clearly too low. I have seen too many software failures recently
from this company. Like photos freezing on my new iMac (before High Sierra),
numerous issues with iOS (I remember the podcasts app wasting all my cellular
allowance because it ignored WiFi only) and other nuances, inconsistencies and
defects.

Only in iOS 11 have they added tags to the files app - the previous iCloud
Drive app had a button for tags but it was seemingly not implemented.

Finding issues in apple products is really like going hunting in a zoo at the
moment.

~~~
mi100hael
I have a Dell Precision laptop running Linux at home and a MacBook Pro from
work.

On a weekly basis, the Mac won't wake from sleep and requires a hard reboot.
The Time Machine backups get corrupted at least every other month and require
a full backup from scratch. Sometimes the audio just quits working when I wake
from sleep. The App Store is some horribly wrapped, unresponsive web app. Disk
Utility is useless. Etc, etc. It's a horrible mess of an experience.

The Dell running Linux is _far_ more stable. I can get literal months of
uptime out of the Dell using it on a daily basis w/ 100% hardware
functionality. No stereotypical Linux desktop pains. And this is coming from
someone who was an Apple fanboy for 10+ years. Apple's QA just went to shit
and I was sick of dealing with their bugs.

Edit: For those telling me it's a hardware problem: it's possible, but I've
had similar experiences w/ the wake-from-sleep issues on two different copies
of the 2016 15" MBP, and the Time Machine corruption on a MBP and an Air. So
if it is a hardware problem, then their hardware QC is as bad as their
software.

~~~
jjoonathan
Opposite experience here.

2015 Dell Precision M6800 issues (all non-linux-related have been replicated
by >=1 coworker):

    
    
        Spurious thermal throttle activation occasionally reduces performance to molassas
        Bluescreen in network drivers ~ once a week
        Unless you disable integrated/discrete graphics switching, it fails to recognize external displays
        HDD makes strange grinding noise every month or so, but hasn't failed yet.
        Shit control loop on fans sometimes causes them to repeatedly pulse on and off
        Shit battery / power management (about ~1.5hr tops after incentivized settings optimization)
        Shit trackpad
        Takes ~1 minute to recognize new USB HID devices (might be AV's fault)
        (Linux-only): latest stable ubuntu toggles backlight on/off at 30hz
        (Linux-only): ancient supported ubuntu doesn't support modern chrome or firefox (!)
        (Linux-only): able to wake from sleep exactly once
        (Linux-only): massive pain in the ass to install drivers on supported ubuntu (directions for the packager app were out of date and incorrect to a degree that was difficult to work around)
    

2013 MBP:

    
    
        Dead key, replaced keyboard (cost: $10 + two hours)
        Spill caused unreliable trackpad, replaced. (cost: $30 + two hours)

~~~
jng
How did you get the MBP trackpad replaced for $30 and in 2h? I have the one in
my MacBook Air in a similar state and Apple quotes 150+ EUR and leaving it for
one week at their tech support...

~~~
jjoonathan
I bought a replacement on ebay and swapped it out. Most of the two hours was
spent un-sticking the battery from the case.

Macs have high enough volume per model that parts and tutorial videos are
plentiful and cheap :D

------
chmars
Description:

'If a hint was set in Disk Utility when creating an APFS encrypted volume, the
password was stored as the hint. This was addressed by clearing hint storage
if the hint was the password, and by improving the logic for storing hints.'

[https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208165](https://support.apple.com/en-
us/HT208165)

~~~
rightos
So basically if you set a hint your entire disk encryption became useless
because the hint storage gave your password away?

Yikes, hope no one was relying on that.

~~~
eonti09taeuo
Keep in mind that this only happens if you turned it on using Disk Utility. If
you did the normal upgrade (the vast majority of users) you didn't go through
disk utility, and everything's fine (presumably). Still a terrible error, but
affects far fewer people than your comment implied.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
What if you used command line diskutil?

~~~
FabHK
Apparently the bug only affected the GUI app.

> When creating an encrypted APFS volume in Terminal with the diskutil command
> line utility, the actual hint is shown, rather than the password.

[https://www.macrumors.com/2017/10/05/macos-high-sierra-
disk-...](https://www.macrumors.com/2017/10/05/macos-high-sierra-disk-utility-
vulnerability/)

------
maxton
It's rather frightening that a bug as serious as this one got past Apple's QA.
It seems like the list of known problems with the new Disk Utility is growing
- recently there was a submission about how High Sierra's Disk Utility did not
show unformatted disks.

~~~
bdcravens
Perhaps they were busy testing header font sizes in iOS?

~~~
gowld
Engineers couldn't see the bug because the code was displayed in Narrow Light
font weight, color grey

~~~
paulddraper
Their only mistake was not making it an ever lighter grey.

~~~
likelynew
Not sure whether people are downvoting you for fun, but your unreadable
comment in light grey due to downvotes is hilarious.

------
dep_b
Apple needs some internal competition, iOS and macOS should never have been
merged into one team. macOS needs a leader that doesn't believe desktop
computing got superseded by mobile.

~~~
dman
I whole heartedly agree. I would like at least one desktop platform vendor to
not start with the defeatist mindset that Web / Mobile won. Desktop is where I
do most of my productive work, the basic way I do my work (programming /
research) has not improved in a long time. There is tremendous room for
innovation on the desktop.

------
marsrover
Software issues among all of Apple's products have become much more numerous
in recent years. I don't want to get down voted for putting the blame on Tim
Cook, but I do not believe he has been a positive influence on the quality of
their software.

It's sad, really. My first Mac was a late 2009 MacBook Pro. I remember
_craving_ the machine before I finally splurged. After I bought it, I used
nothing but a Mac for the next 6 years of my life. Those 6 years were some of
the happiest times I've ever had using a computer. Everything worked
flawlessly. The build quality of the machines I bought was pristine.

At the end of those 6 years my MacBook was getting buggier with each update,
as was my iPhone. I ended up buying a Surface Book. I'm back on Windows for
the first time since XP, and while I'm sure I made the right decision, I can't
help look back 5 years ago and think that maybe the golden age is over.

~~~
Posibyte
I agree with the assertion of Tim Cook being a negative influence on Apple.
Their product reveals just don't feel stunning anymore. I used to be enamored
by their product lines, and truly envious of those people you knew that used
Apple products for as much of their production pipeline as possible.

But it's so much different now. It feels less like a well crafted experience
and more just an alternative. It was always an alternative, but a
complementary one at that. You could buy a hammer, but you could also buy this
nice, shiny, beautiful hammer, weighted perfectly to swing like an extension
of your arm, etc.

I started getting this feeling right around the first iPhone release after
Jobs passed away. As much as I romanticized it here, I wouldn't exactly call
myself an Apple fan, nor a Jobs fan, but the sort of impact and hype he could
build felt a lot more exciting than Cook for me. And that kinda sucks because
I know Apple has some great people with even greater ideas.

~~~
TheKarateKid
I didn't want to believe that the loss of Jobs' would change much, but sadly
time has shown otherwise. I miss the days of the annual iPod lineup, where
each year would bring some totally new, radical design even though last year's
was stunning and enough to last at least 2-3 years as the flagship model. The
ever-changing iPod Nano lineup is clearest to me.

When Jobs' was asked why he would change something that was already above and
beyond anything else on the market, his response was "If you don't cannibalize
yourself, someone else will."

Geeze, I really miss Steve Jobs.

------
Grollicus
The Password got written in plain text on disk. It can possibly be recovered
by some obscure technique (wear leveling reserve I'm looking at you) and
should be considered burned.

------
VonGuard
I made the jump off of HFS+ a few months back, as soon as I heard a new FS was
coming. After years of keeping TBs of data on Mac OS on HFS+ as a home file
server, I was just completely fed up. My external volumes were dead without a
Mac. Nothing can read them, without paying for special software, and even that
doesn't work correctly.

Now, I know there are many things that can read HFS+ in Linux and Windows, but
none of them cover 100%. Sometimes you can't write, sometimes you can't mount
on boot, other times you can't rely on it as a long-term solution.

I spent weeks copying everything over to a NAS, and I have never looked back.
Apple should have gone with ANYTHING open source, or even remotely open
standards, but it seems like the lesson they've taken from Jobs' legacy is "be
different for difference's sake."

I know they've open sourced the iOS kernel, but that's because it doesn't
matter. It doesn't keep you locked in, like XCode keeps you locked into Mac
desktops. The Apple world went from innovating in UI and design, to innovating
in supply chain management and pricing structures.

------
Someone
_”Your password might be displayed instead of your password hint if you used
the Add APFS Volume command in Disk Utility to create an encrypted APFS
volume, and you supplied a password hint.

Changing the password on an affected volume clears the hint but doesn’t affect
the underlying encryption keys that protect the data.”_

They go on to advise users to do a backup, format, restore cycle.

I guess they are that paranoid because the old password may have been leaked,
and, with it, the attacker may have recovered the encryption key for the
volume. Or is something else going on?

They also advise (rightfully so): _”If your disk password for any affected
encrypted APFS volume is the same as the password that you use for a macOS
user account or an internet service, you should change the password of the
user account or internet service”_

------
paultopia
It does seem like there are a ton of really huge bugs in recent OSX and iOS
releases. I just got bitten hard by this bug with dashes in iOS:
[http://appleinsider.com/articles/17/09/26/tips-turn-off-
ios-...](http://appleinsider.com/articles/17/09/26/tips-turn-off-ios-11-smart-
punctuation-to-avoid-data-entry-problems) \-- I've been writing an academic
article on my ipad pro, and I just realized that the damn thing ate a ton of
my text---whenever the "smart capitalization" feature sees something that
looks like an em dash, it inserts a null byte and blows up the end of the
string.

How did this thing get through testing without anyone ever typing an em dash?

------
runesoerensen
Apparently the supplemental update also fixed the Keychain extraction
vulnerability [https://support.apple.com/en-
us/HT208165](https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208165)

------
csomar
Wow. This is very obscure language and I'm disappointed. They don't even
mention that this is a "BUG".

I didn't have any trouble with High Sierra so far, but was disappointed to
upgrade to iOS 11. It is still unstable. A lot.

~~~
eridius
How is this obscure, and why do they have to mention it's a "BUG"? This is a
support article for how to fix the issue. There's no reason why the article
needs to say "Hey this is a bug", because the whole reason the support article
exists is because of the bug.

~~~
TheKarateKid
So should Security Bulletins released by Apple and Microsoft not state that a
vulnerability/exploit was found since stating how to fix it implies that one
existed?

This support article speaks mostly to people who have already seen the
symptoms of the bug. It doesn't do anything to inform people who may still be
affected but haven't noticed it yet.

~~~
eridius
This isn't a security bulletin. It's an article explaining how to fix the
issue.

------
canadianhacker
If we're bashing Apple's engineering quality, have no further look than the
Apple Music App on Android.

Some examples:

* App crashed for no apparent reason multiple times

* Bug where on multiple occasions music won't be added to my playlists

* Bug where music not downloading after pressing the cloud icon. I always have to press it twice before the download begins, which seems like an obvious bug

Like, these are features that should be nailed down. I developed an android
app which did file downloads. Press the button and download begins or is
queued. Will tell users that the download fails, which is better than nothing.

~~~
romanovcode
Try iTunes on Windows.

I'm pretty they deliberately make it slow and clunky on Windows.

Also, for some reason the CC input for Month just showed 4 out of 12 months so
I could not even subscribe. Seems like they really don't give a crap.

------
grandalf
Since this thread is broadly about Apple losing its edge as a fairly secure-
by-default platform:

I installed Windows 10 on a computer and use it from time to time and the
built-in anti-virus and malware protection makes me feel more comfortable
running unsigned applications on Windows than I feel running them on OSX.

I find myself wishing that Apple would take similar responsibility for
security (virus, malware) threats. One possible reason Apple is not doing this
is because the next iteration of MacBooks will run iOS and unsigned apps will
not be possible without jailbreaking.

~~~
TheKarateKid
Doing that on MacOS would be the death of it. Apple does have the audacity to
move towards that direction (OS X already makes you jump through a few hoops
with downloaded unsigned apps) but even they know that a lot of their users
are developers who need that freedom.

~~~
grandalf
I could see XCode and Command Line Tools becoming apps. And Homebrew could be
an app that let all of its contents run in a sandbox and not touch any of the
device's other data.

------
egb
I so wish Apple had not removed the older Sierra installer from the Mac
AppStore... I need to update some machines but High Sierra does not seem ready
for reliable use yet.

~~~
jakobegger
If you've downloaded Sierra on another Mac before, you can still find the
Sierra installer in the Mac App Store in the "Purchases" tab.

If you don't have it in your purchases list, you can just ask a friend who has
it to download Sierra for you from the Mac App Store.

Then you can just copy the Installer app on a thumb drive and run it on your
Mac.

Only problem might be that maybe you can't download Sierra from a machine
running High Sierra...

UPDATE: I'm wrong, see comment below.

~~~
pfranz
They stopped doing that with Sierra:

"macOS Sierra or later doesn't appear in the Purchased tab. Instead, use the
Search field in the upper-right corner to find and open the App Store page for
the current version of macOS."

[https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201272](https://support.apple.com/en-
us/HT201272)

~~~
jasomill
Note, however, that if[1], and apparently only if[2], you’ve downloaded Sierra
from the App Store in the past, you can install

[https://github.com/mas-cli/mas](https://github.com/mas-cli/mas)

and then use the command

    
    
        mas install 1127487414
    

to download the latest Sierra installer from the App Store.

[1] It worked for me.

[2] Or so I’ve heard.

~~~
pfranz
Thanks a bunch! I downloaded and stashed a copy of Sierra when it first came
out, but I recently bought a new Mac that came with Sierra (likely a point
release and 10.12.0 likely won't install). I can restore from a netboot, but
like having something I can put onto a USB drive.

------
adenylyl
"Erase the affected volume" is really the best solution they could come up
with?

~~~
Someone
I think encryption uses a generated key to encrypt most of the disk, and
stores that key encrypted with the user password on the disk. That makes
changing the password fast; they only need to re-encrypt the encrypted key
with the new password, and write it out. Problem is that an attacker who knows
the old password may already have decrypted the generated key, so they can
decrypt the encrypted data from the raw data, even after the password was
changed.

Erasing generates a new key for the data. I think it could be done without
reformatting, but they still would have to read each block, decrypt with the
old key, encrypt with the new, and write back the result. Testing the recovery
procedure for that (how do you know where to restart that after it crashed?)
would be a challenge, though.

~~~
STRML
Couldn't you just turn off FileVault (decrypts the drive), let that finish,
then turn it back on again?

~~~
Someone
I guess that doesn’t remove the master key. Maybe, it also is used as the ID
that uniquely identifies the disk?

------
DonHopkins
Apple Computer has always been a pioneer on the cutting edge of accessibility
and ease-of-use.

I'll bet it will even read your password out to you with the speech
synthesizer, clearly and unambiguously spelling out each of the upper and
lower case letters, digits and symbols.

------
duncan_bayne
I have a number of friends who use OSX and Windows, and keep telling me "just
give up on Linux (or FreeBSD) and use something which Just Works!"

Well, except for stuff like this. Or the built-in advertising. Or the VBA code
that beachballs in Excel Mac but not Excel Windows. Or the buggy, crashy
drivers. Or the awful printing experience. Or the ability to reliably predict
behaviour when plugging in external monitors or projectors. Or ...

I _think_ what most people mean by "Just Works" is "I don't have to edit
configuration files in order to set up my system", not "my system is reliable
and predictable."

------
Froyoh
The way they wrote the article really convinced me that it was a minor issue.

~~~
amiga-workbench
They train their Apple store staff to speak in a similar manner, to play down
any problems and try to sidestep aknowleging that there is a fault with the
product.

------
wallnuss
how??! In what context does a clear-text password end up anywhere, except as
the input for a hash function.

~~~
baddox
I would guess that the bug was in the front-end code for the password form. At
that point the code obviously has access to the plain text password. I’m
imagining a copy-paste bug like this:

    
    
       storePassword(form[“password”])
       storeHint(form[“password”])

~~~
FabHK
What makes that theory even more plausible is that the bug doesn't appear in
the command line diskutil.

------
CodeWriter23
I’m sure the approach to dealing with this will be some variation of
restorative justice instead of a public pillory and termination of an entire
team like Steve did to the MobileMe Team.

------
xenadu02
If you don't want to reformat (and you aren't re-using a password you've used
elsewhere) you can change the password:

1\. Open Disk Utility and select the volume 2\. Select File, Change Password
3\. IMPORTANT: If on High Sierra GM, leave the hint field blank. If you've
installed the update then you can provide a new hint.

Word of warning: the most secure course of action is to follow the
instructions in the linked support article.

~~~
CodeWriter23
And leave the old hint sitting on your drive as “\x00ld-password”? No thanks.

~~~
breakingcups
"(and you aren't re-using a password you've used elsewhere)"

------
robtaylor
As there are a few mac gurus on this thread - an OT question... colleague has
2014 rMBP and used HDMI out and a DVI adapter via thunderbolt port to have two
external displays.

Sierra update killed that - only one display will work at a time.

prams zapped, settings fiddled with, cables tested in millions of combos and
even playing with AppleGraphicsControl.kext

Any other ideas? Seems nuts an update can kill such a thing!

~~~
joombaga
Connect the other monitor via thunderbolt->HDMI adapter? You're right, it does
seem silly. Possibly just coincidental?

------
teekert
Hmm I'm still on El Capitan because of aperture and iPhoto. This thread makes
want to stay there forever.

~~~
josteink
Had Apple been anything like Microsoft, you would be able to stay there for
another 10 years while they sorted things out.

------
rayascott
The ultimate hint.

------
Andersos
So how do you test if you are affected?

~~~
Grollicus
Look at your password hint for disk encryption.

------
y3sh
Why isn't this a 10.13.1 update?

~~~
jasomill
One plausible reason is that they’ve already released a 10.13.1 beta,
announced features and API changes coming in 10.13.1, and started revising
documentation to reflect changes introduced in 10.13.1, so branding today’s
update “10.13.1” would result in a nontrivial amount of extra work and
confusion, in exchange for...what, exactly?

The updated version _does_ come with a new full App Store installer and build
number (17A405), however, so it’s as easy to install and identify
programmatically as a new “point release” would be.

------
pasbesoin
Perhaps you should test your security _before_ you test your (graphic)
"design".

Good grief.

------
grandalf
Would this vulnerability also exist in iOS devices using APFS?

~~~
yebyen
It's a flaw in Disk Utility, so no I don't think so

------
Andersos
so how do you test if you are affected?

~~~
fixmycode
press the password hint button and see if it spits out your password :-)

------
ce4
the site connection attempt throws this: Error code:
SSL_ERROR_UNSAFE_NEGOTIATION

I guess thats not the posts message

------
nkkollaw
Apple is really going downhill, in every field.

I have a MacBook Pro, and the keys no longer work reliably. I also barely get
2 hours of battery life.

High Sierra keeps restarting by itself.

They removed the jack, and all ports from laptops.

They placed the charger for their wireless mouse under the mouse so you can't
use it while charging, and the list goes on and on--particularly with
software.

It's just not premium stuff anymore.

I've already switched to Android, and I am not buying another computer from
them.

~~~
Jerry2
> _They removed the jack, and all ports from laptops._

What are you on about? Audio jack is there.

> _They placed the charger for their wireless mouse under the mouse so you can
> 't use it while charging_

And? Mouse lasts MONTHS on a single charge. It notifies you 12 hours ahead
that it needs charging. A 5 min charge can last you an hour.

I think this is a lot better than having a hole on the side of your mouse at
all times.

This is an issue only to those who've never used it.

> _and the list goes on and on--particularly with software._

Please list it. I'm dying to know more!

> _It 's just not premium stuff anymore._

Silly opinion.

> _I 've already switched to Android, and I am not buying another computer
> from them._

We're talking about Macs. What does Android have to do with it? You're mixing
up your hate memes.

PS: You clearly never even owned a Macbook Pro. You're probably getting your
"facts" from bullshit 4chan memes.

~~~
bdamm
The mouse thing really irks me. The moment the mouse needs charging is the
moment is stop working. So why am I expected to then _not use the product_
while it charges? A product that _used to have a wire connected to it and is
sitting right next to the computer_? How is having a hole in the bottom at
better than having a hole on the side?

~~~
firethief
I don't think it's about the hole. Someone decided:

\- users would have a better experience if the mouse was wireless

\- if left to their own devices, users will tend to leave the mouse plugged in
and use it as a wired mouse

so they solved that contradiction by taking away the option of missing out on
wirelessness.

~~~
wlesieutre
Can confirm I have a hybrid wired/wireless mouse (Logitech G700s) and I
generally just leave it plugged in.

Which works fine, so I'm glad Logitech decided not to be assholes about it.

~~~
wlesieutre
Incidentally if anyone's looking for a mouse, Logitech really handles this
perfectly. When it's plugged in to USB they use the cable for power + data so
there's a tiny bit less latency and no worries about signal dropping. It
switches the data to the wireless dongle automatically if the cable is
unplugged.

The mouse runs off of a single rechargable AA battery (came with an Eneloop
brand NiMH which are well regarded). If your battery dies you can either plug
it in to charge or just pull the battery and swap in a fresh one. Since it's a
standard battery you can toss the dead one in a normal NiMH charger.

A+ mouse, would recommend.

~~~
taternuts
I second the recommendation, been using a logitech performance MX mouse for
probably 4-5 years now. My company gave out the apple mouse and I made them
specially order the MX for me. I am a creature of comfort though as I did the
same for my keyboard.

~~~
dylan-m
I did the same. I tried to use the Apple mouse for a couple months, I really
did, but I felt my wrists turning into frozen fish and decided enough was
enough. (This was the previous generation mouse where you needed to replace
the AA batteries yourself, like a barbarian. Are the current ones shaped any
differently at least?). Brought in my old Das Keyboard while I was at it.
World of difference. And I don't feel any less cool, despite there being
several physical buttons and a hole on the side of my mouse.

------
ericfrederich
Okay... can somebody spoof/re-spin the relevant xkcd?
[https://xkcd.com/538/](https://xkcd.com/538/)

------
beedogs
It's a shame what's happened to Apple since Jobs died. Boring hardware coupled
with increasingly buggy software.

------
dsschnau
how do you have infinity billions of dollars and fuck that up, damn

