
Edward Snowden is Almost Broke - imd23
http://world.time.com/2013/11/12/edward-snowden-is-almost-broke/
======
IvyMike
I'm actually surprised he has any access to his money at all. I assumed all of
his assets would have been frozen under some sort of murky
fugitive/terrorist/organized crime laws.

Or maybe he took proactive steps to keep this from happening?

~~~
Theodores
If you blow the whistle on something then all of your resources are put into
getting to the whistleblowing stage. The dedication is entirely devoted to the
act, not the aftermath. All that is expected of the aftermath is a bumpy ride,
the possibility of being universally despised, ostracised from society and so
on. Money and the means to get by is not perceived to be such a big problem
when one is fully prepared to end up in Guantanamo Bay. To some extent that is
the end goal, in that respect Chelsea Manning succeeded. Snowden did pretty
well getting to Russia, getting some hangers on to provide support and getting
a job. The fact that he is broke is mere mortal stuff, he is waiting for his
pay check to come through.

As any ex-cat-1 prisoner can tell you, life on the run is the most expensive
way to live. With Snowden he has had many agencies after him, all with their
different approaches. Obviously the U.S. have been on his case, they tend to
be good at the sigint stuff but not so good at actual spy trade craft. I would
not be at all surprised if there was a British team on his case too, better
able to watch him pop to the shops for a pint of milk. Then the Russians will
be monitoring everything, on their home turf and able to keep watch on who is
keeping watch. Not all watchers will be hostile to him, after all we are all
human (Tony Blair excepted), however, none of the many folks observing him
will be able to assist him. They will watch him starve rather than intervene.

Presumably he is not as on-the-run as he has had to be, however, the practical
implications of being completely on-the-run are more than you might think.
Imagine he wants to be able to do things like sleep without being observed.
That means he has to move every day, and at extremely short notice so anyone
watching him does not get a head start, e.g. to bug a hotel room before he
gets in there. He also has to pay cash up front just on the off chance he has
lost his tail. Then the same again the next day and the day after that.

Eventually he will realise that trying to escape his watchers is a fruitless
task and decide it is better to take a disinformation approach. At this stage
he could try to convince those behind the bugs that he has gone mad. Claiming
to be the messiah, pretending to have narrowly avoided being poisoned, hearing
voices - standard lunatic stuff. He might also want to go the extra mile on
proving that he is no longer an existential threat to the American Way of
Life, taking up a pastime such as computer gaming, putting in marathon
Playstation sessions and completely ignoring the news. After a year or so of
doing this he will be able to convince himself that he has his privacy back
and live the normal life.

Snowden probably also has had the problem of living off a good pay cheque and
then having to adapt to a normal pay check, or no money at all. If you are
used to paying thousands a month on accommodation, buying nice food and doing
things like driving a car then it can take a while to adapt to barely having
enough money to afford groceries for the next day. A mental attitude has to
change, from being generous with tips to actually living off what that tip
would be. That change does not happen so easily, even if circumstance forces
that change to be necessary.

Anyway...

This talk of sending the guy a few bitcoins is far off from the reality of his
situation. Sounds to me that he actually does have everything that he needs to
live, i.e. a job and a few close friends. He has sorted himself out. He does
not need to be beholden to charity handouts.

~~~
todayiamme
Hey,

Your description of a life on the run was quite interesting and I was
wondering if I could ask a few questions - would it be possible to do that?
(your profile does not have an email ID)

~~~
Theodores
Sure, what's wrong with keeping the conversation here?

I have no special insight gained from first hand experience, however, if I
meet someone that has a criminal record I make friends rather than run away
from them. There can be many benefits in doing this, e.g. you have someone
that appreciates and respects your advice, they can possibly do a better job
than the police in retrieving your belongings if they get stolen, you can
obtain unobtainable 'black market' items, get to the best parties, find out
information not in the public domain and so on. You also get the best stories.
I merely presented a composite, abbreviated version of things I have learned
along the way. I am sure the same stuff could be found in films and books. I
am also sure that the spies know what cycle to expect from those they take
care of.

------
sinak
I'll reach out in the morning to people/orgs in touch with him and see if
taskforce.is can set up some way of getting money to him without a big legal
risk.

~~~
repnescasb
Good idea! Keep us informed if it worked, I would be very happy to donate!

------
gasull
He could get Bitcoin address and ask for donations. I would be surprised if he
didn't think about this already. He might not want to give the Government a
excuse to ban Bitcoin.

~~~
Hermel
You can send Bitcoins to this address if you want to support him:
[https://blockchain.info/address/1snowqQP5VmZgU47i5AWwz9fsgHQ...](https://blockchain.info/address/1snowqQP5VmZgU47i5AWwz9fsgHQg94Fa)

Source: [https://wikileaks.org/freesnowden](https://wikileaks.org/freesnowden)

He already received 141 Bitcoins (over 50'000 USD) on that address.

~~~
gmjoe
This is specifically "for the legal defence campaign of Mr Edward Snowden".
The page doesn't mention any of it going to support Snowden himself.

And that might be an important distinction -- IANAL, but contributing to
someone's defense fund seems like a perfectly legal thing to do; financially
supporting someone on the run from the US government, I'm not sure quite how
legal that is. I'm curious if anyone knows more.

------
GabrielF00
What would be the legality of sending Snowden money? He's been charged with a
crime and donations would enable him to live outside the country. Isn't that
aiding and abetting a fugitive?

~~~
sillysaurus2
The bare truth is "almost certainly."

~~~
ygra
Would that be relevant to people outside the US, though? I guess they cannot
legally go around, charging people with aiding a fugitive, all over the world.
(Or maybe that's just overly naïve on my part)

~~~
copx
I do not think the US government would bother to try to prosecute that. It is
just not worth the resulting diplomatic drama.

I think right now the Obama administration is happy that people are starting
to forget about the whole affair. The NSA's mass surveillance program is still
on and it seems now accepted as the new normal.

Ultimately Snowden has failed. He exposed the program but the resulting
outrage was not strong enough to bring it down. In fact, now that the US
government got away with this they will probably get even more extreme in
future..

------
imd23
We should help him. How we the HN community could? I'd love to hear ideas from
all of you.

~~~
sinak
We at [https://taskforce.is](https://taskforce.is) (mostly HNers) can help set
something up,. I'll reach out to ACLU and his lawyers in the morning.

~~~
contextual
Taskforce looks seriously cool. It deserves more attention on Hacker News and
elsewhere.

Does Taskforce have badges or support banners for webmasters and bloggers to
put on their sites and link to you?

------
winfred
What I want to know, is Snowden going to do his tax return this year in the
US?

~~~
harywilke
As a US citizen the answer is always 'yes' even if you lived on the moon.

~~~
lnanek2
Since he can never return to the US anyway, there are charges against him, it
is kind of pointless.

~~~
KMag
But on the off chance there's some loophole in Russian law (or the laws of
some country he passes through in the future) that makes extradition to the US
for tax evasion particularly easy, filing and paying his taxes may be worth
the cost and effort.

Or if by some long shot some future president pardons him, he'll be glad he
paid his taxes.

~~~
wavefunction
I'm not sure if Russia has a "double taxation" agreement with the US and a
quick google doesn't immediately prsent an answer. If so, expats who pay taxes
in Russia won't have to pay those same taxes in the US. As long as Snowden
files his taxes, he won't be under a tax obligation or legal liability.

I am not a lawyer!

~~~
WildUtah
There is a US-Russia double taxation treaty.[0]

He'll be eligible for the foreign earned income exclusion by filing time. That
protects US persons from double taxation up to about $100k of earned income,
even without a tax treaty.

And he needs to remember to file his FBARs, too.

[0][http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/International-
Businesses/Russi...](http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/International-
Businesses/Russia---Tax-Treaty-Documents)

------
dgolds
[https://wikileaks.org/freesnowden](https://wikileaks.org/freesnowden)

~~~
adamnemecek
> Roland Tscheinig gave $4,000

> Thanks so much, Mr. Snowden,

> Your sense of initiative is commendable and should serve as a guiding light
> for all of us.

> Your contribution to our common future has been absolutely invaluable!

Holy crap, this guy puts his money where his mouth is.

~~~
Amadou
Many of us here can afford to do the same. A very close friend and business
partner gave a similar amount to help Star Simpson with her situation because
he believed very strongly that she was a victim of the War on Dignity.

Star Simpson: [http://boingboing.net/2008/09/22/star-simpson-one-
yea.html](http://boingboing.net/2008/09/22/star-simpson-one-yea.html)

~~~
jamesaguilar
Wow, I remember that. Did you know that she's the one who did that Taco Copter
thing they were talking about on here a few months ago?? Cool.

~~~
samatman
Even better, she does things that aren't pranks!

[http://canidu.com/](http://canidu.com/)

Don't get me wrong. Taco Copter is an excellent prank, and both of the
pranksters involved are worth keeping an eye on.

Especially if they can get into your home, laptop, or vehicle ;-)

------
bobbles
Surely there must be news organisations willing to pay for interviews?

~~~
Pitarou
He may have to, but it will be a desperate move. Think about the risks
involved.

The US government:

\- spends billions on illicit surveillance tech

\- officially sanctions kidnapping ("extraordinary rendition") as a tool of
security policy

\- brought down an Ecuadorian diplomatic flight over European airspace, on the
mere possibility that he might be on it

\- fully intends to lock him up in a cage forever and ever and ever

~~~
trekky1700
You pretty much just described Batman.

~~~
Pitarou
Interesting point. Which side do you think the Caped Crusader would take?

~~~
angryasian
based on the fact that he gave Fox control to destroy his cell phone
surveillance. I think he would be pro snowden

~~~
yen223
Based on the fact that he _had_ a cell phone surveillance system, he'd
probably be pro-NSA.

~~~
drdeca
Didn't he decide that the thing he set up was too powerful for anyone to have
though?

(in at least one version, iirc, etc. etc.)

~~~
sliverstorm
Sure, but that didn't stop him from using it, did it?

~~~
yen223
We like our superheroes to kick some villain's butt without pesky 'due
process' getting in the way.

Kinda like the NSA, if you think about it.

~~~
ISL
Batman prefers due process.

~~~
sliverstorm
"I'd like you to meet the bastions of justice, my right jab _Due_ and my left
hook _Process_. Say hello!"

\-- Batman

------
mixmastamyk
Don't have to help for now, says in the fourth paragraph he's got a new job.

~~~
fsiefken
yes, that is an odd contradiction between the paragraph and the title.

~~~
Volscio
The need to put a tidbit of information out like that from his lawyer seems
more to me to be a bid to counter the claims that he is being run by a foreign
intel service who some might assume would have given him large sums of cash
for his continuing to stay in Russia in public silence.

------
zerorbit
His parents could set up a kickstarter/indiegogo/paypal. They wouldn't have to
name Snowden in the plea for funds, could be named the "Freedom Fund". So,
donators wouldn't be charged with aiding a felon.

~~~
icebraining
If the donors know it's for Snowden, the courts would as well.

------
DonGateley
Would a contribution be tax deductible?

~~~
kintamanimatt
Probably not! Donations are only tax deductible if they're to registered
charities, and usually only if the charity is in the same country in which
you're a taxpayer.

~~~
DonGateley
Darn! The irony would be incomparable!

------
orenmazor
So what you're telling us is that being a whistleblower and fleeing to Russia
turns out to be a poor career move?

------
vincie
Let this be a warning to all you crazy kids out there thinking you can take on
the man and not get busted.

~~~
scott_karana
Right, don't bother exposing the biggest Constitutional violation of this
century, because you might have to take on a part-time job while you're in
exile...

(If you weren't serious, I apologize!)

~~~
vincie
I wasn't. Anyway, poor bugger. He will never work for anyone remotely
connected to any government institution or any multinational in any country.
The US is so omnipotent and omnipresent that even the Chinese, Ecuadorians and
earlier on, the Russians, were seemingly afraid to touch him.

------
tokenadult
"The American fugitive, who revealed troves of classified information as he
fled the country in May and is now living under temporary asylum in Russia,
reportedly started at a job at an unnamed Russian website earlier this month."

How do computer industry salaries in Russia compare with government contractor
salaries in the United States? And how much of whatever money people send to
Snowden will end up with Snowden, and how much with Snowden's lawyer? (Another
issue is whether the one-year asylum offered by Russia will be extended later
or not. What will Snowden do if Russia decides not to continue to grant him
permission to be in Russia and work there?)

------
christiangenco
What would happen if he ran out of money? Wouldn't Russia just... give him
some? I can hardly think it would be in the diplomatic interest of Russia for
Snowden to become unable to pay his lawyer.

~~~
jbigelow76
Having the government pay for your lawyer and being broke are not mutually
exclusive (and that's assuming Russia sees some benefit to providing him
counsel). Not sure why Russia would give him any money, what does the money
buy them? They could probably put a roof over his head if they really wanted
but that's still a far cry from not being broke.

~~~
golergka
Also, I think that "putting a roof over someone's head" and "putting a roof
over someone who US government really wants to get" cost slightly different.

------
wehadfun
So what punishment would be he experience if he was to return?

It sounds like he is not "free" now. He would be a high profile prisoner. How
bad would the government treat him?

~~~
atom-morgan
I imagine he'd be tortured.

------
hajderr
At least he is free.

~~~
crististm
How the world changed...

------
veganarchocap
We could set something up to donate to him? I think we owe him a hell of a
lot. Allowing him to live comfortably is the least we can do. Do you think if
a fund was set up it would be hijacked by the U.S?

------
kostyk
i thought he got a job??

~~~
olefoo
He probably did; but at this point you have to assume that any media you
receive on the topic of Edward Snowden is a calculated ploy for someone's
agenda. Whether it's Wikileaks trying to embarrass the US .gov or the
Intelligence Community trying to discredit Snowden and by extension all
whistleblowers. Anything you read about Snowden has been pushed or spun by by
someone. The man himself may be miserable, or comfortable; we have no idea and
I'd guess he likes his privacy. But the persona of Edward Snowden that is
reenacted on blogs, television, etc.; that is a complete fabrication that is
always already a lie in some direction or another.

------
brianbreslin
would it be considered treason to send him money as a US citizen? I could
imagine he could fetch a pretty penny consulting on russian sites about
security issues (even if he isn't the top guy in the field, he has a crazy
name recognition right now).

~~~
rms
Only "light treason"

------
brosco45
No he isn't, he's the richest amongst us.

~~~
winslow
Care to expand on that?

~~~
brosco45
Rich in Karma.

------
Grue3
Maybe he should ask Putin for some spare change.

------
a3voices
Snowden could write a book and make millions. This profit potential means he's
not "broke" in the same sense a typical broke person is.

~~~
JonFish85
I'd imagine he'd have a hard time getting someone to publish & distribute that
book (in the USA, at least)...

------
BlindRubyCoder
I was wondering about this the other day. I'm sure someone will help him out.

------
pmarca
What? Treason doesn't pay?

~~~
david927
It paid off for our founding fathers.

I have too much respect for you, Marc, to think you're doing anything other
than joking but it's still disappointing and not really funny.

Remember all the people in Germany during WWII (*sorry for the tired analogy)
who could have spoken up and didn't. I guess they did the right thing. They
certainly wouldn't want to commit treason -- it doesn't pay.

------
dead_phish
I have very little sympathy for his monetary plight. He made his bed, let him
sleep in it.

Or rather, when your giant paycheck comes from the government, maybe torquing
off that government in the most flamboyant way possible isn't the best of
ideas.

~~~
general_failure
Wow, you are a dick. Or completely clueless.

~~~
asveikau
Sorry, the comment you're replying to makes an actual argument. Your reply of
"wow, you're a dick" does not.

I find no objection that dead_phish should express this view if that's how he
feels. It is a valid viewpoint even if it is not shared. I also commend him
for expressing it in a community like HN which, let's be honest, does not
tolerate dissenting views of Snowden.

It's kind of sad that his dissenting view is downvoted and your name-calling
is not.

~~~
dead_phish
Thank you. I was a little disturbed by how quickly this turned to "you're an
ass for not thinking this way." I expected disagreement, but not, well, so
much rage.

