
US bans students from “blacklisted” countries from getting access to Coursera - btimil
http://hummusforthought.com/2014/01/29/us-bans-students-from-blacklisted-countries-from-getting-a-free-education/
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scottdw2
Is there any better way to change someone's mind, to change their fundamental
mode of thought, to alter their perceptions and manner of reason than to
educate them?

Here's an even better question: if your enemy thinks like you, talks like you,
acts like you, shares your values and views the world the way you do, is he
your enemy? Can he be your enemy? Why would he be your enemy?

Let's consider a central question.You espouse a belief in freedom, a nation
built on liberty. Your enemy denies this, proclaims you a tyrant, and
endeavors to make war against you. How do you respond?

One method undercuts your enemy's message, reaffirms your core values, and has
the potential to alter and modify your enemy so that he is predisposed to be
united with you.

The other affirms his message, strengths his position, and emboldens those who
follow him.

This leads to the last question: what is your objective? Is it victory, or
something else?

What better path to victory then to alter the mind of your enemy until he is
incapable of fighting you?

Our educational assets ought to therefore be shared. To sensor them in the
name of security is foolish.

~~~
true_religion
> if your enemy thinks like you, talks like you, acts like you, shares your
> values and views the world the way you do, is he your enemy? Can he be your
> enemy? Why would he be your enemy?

Sure. Previous to the 20th century, most wars were fought over control over
resources, land, and prestige.

~~~
scottdw2
In war, identity is a defined "negatively". That is, not by describing
positive attributes to you, but by describing negative attributes to the
enemy. "We are the opposite of x", hence we fight. If you neutralize the
ability of the enemy to define you (because he is like you) he can't define
himself, and so he cannot fight you. Thus, there is no enemy, and hence no
war.

~~~
true_religion
I can accept that, but at the point you've already gone to war... it is pretty
easy to point at any difference between you and the other country, and say
that your way is better. (e.g. First World liberal democracy U.S.A looks down
upon 1st world liberal democracy U.K. because U.K. has socialized healthcare
thus clearly is insane).

------
frankchn
Disclaimer: I work for Coursera as a Software Engineer.

We have already lifted restrictions for Syrians as the OFAC (Office of Foreign
Assets Control) has a general license for educational content (Syria General
License No. 11A) issued. We are working with the State Department and OFAC for
licenses or exemptions for the other affected countries and we hope to get the
remaining blocks lifted soon.

More info at [http://blog.coursera.org/post/74891215298/update-on-
course-a...](http://blog.coursera.org/post/74891215298/update-on-course-
accessibility-for-students-in-cuba)

~~~
riggins
Understand if you can't discuss but my inference was that this was triggered
by Coursera accepting money for their classes.

 _Under the law, certain aspects of Coursera’s course offerings are considered
services and are therefore subject to restrictions in sanctioned countries_

Is that the case?

~~~
frankchn
We unfortunately cannot accept payment from students in these countries but we
were advised recently that even providing free educational content as a
service would fall under export control regulations.

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tzs
This seems rather overblown.

There are a small list of countries for which the US has a pretty
comprehensive ban on doing business in/with. For these countries, the rule is
"no" unless there has been a specific exception made to allow some particular
kind of business.

There is a much larger list of countries for which there are partial bans
covering specific items or services, at least without getting some kind of
license. With these countries, the rule is "yes" unless you are dealing with a
kind of business that has been specifically restricted.

The article, and most of the comments here so far, make it sound like we are
dealing with the second situation, and Coursera's type of business has been
added to the restricted list.

That does not seem to be the case. The countries involved are in the first
group, where the default in the US is "do not do business with" unless there
has been an exception made for your business. (By the way, that's also how it
has been in the EU for most of these countries until fairly recently. I
believe the EU has been transitioning them to the second group, where they
will have a set of specific areas that are restricted).

The US appears to actually be OK with offering MOOCs in these countries. There
is already an exception in the first group for Syria that allows Coursera to
offer courses there, and they have restored access. They are now working to
get exceptions for the other countries, and from what they say on their blog
it sounds like the State Department is going to be OK with this.

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sentenza
Why doesn't the US pursue the blue-jeans approach do diplomacy any more? You
know, give them blue-jeans, fast-food and rock'n roll, so they will become
like us instead of hate us.

I know this works, since it has been applied in my home country (Germany) to
astonishing results.

This incident als further highlights that we (speaking of Europeans now) need
non-US based online services. Remember the last big Paypal scandal, when all
online-retailers that sold Cuban rum had their accounts frozen?

Yeah, won't be the last.

~~~
barry-cotter
I imagine if the US invaded Cuba, Syria, Iran and Cuba, wrote them new
constitutions, had massive buy in from local supporters/collaborators, had
large military bases in them almost 60 years later and had almost total access
to the communications of all members of government and ministries that would
work even better than blue jeans diplomacy.

~~~
barrkel
_had massive buy in from local supporters /collaborators_

Government control by foreign invaders is not conducive to massive buy-in from
local supporters before "blue jeans diplomacy" has already worked. It's
complete ahistorical fantasy to think otherwise.

~~~
barry-cotter
I don't know man, it worked pretty well for the Romans and everywhere they
speak Arabic now they didn't in the 600s A.D.

Also, Communist Romania. The first five-ishyears of that were pretty relaxed
because there were, for practical purposes, no Romanian Communists to be put
in power;they needed to make some first. And Romania only fell because the
Soviets did.

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c7b0rg
The US regime never ceases to amaze me.

Projection of power at all levels in the lives of ordinary people, from
privacy to education.

I'm completely dumbfounded that they consider themselves protectors of
freedom, how such cognitive dissonance runs rampant within the US is beyond
me.

~~~
pliny
The EU has a ban on trade with Syria since 2012[1].

[http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-
regions/count...](http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-
regions/countries/syria/)

~~~
c7b0rg
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque)

What does it have to do with the matter at hand?

~~~
pliny
If someone is 'the protector of freedom' and if 'the protector of freedom' is
someone that doesn't boycott Syria, then that leaves Japan, South Korea,
Australia and countries who's government don't make decisions based upon
enlightenment values.

~~~
c7b0rg
>If someone is 'the protector of freedom'

>'the protector of freedom' is someone that doesn't boycott Syria

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man)

Not my argument, what are you even arguing against?

If I were you, I'd question myself why I create strawmen, am I interested in
the truth, or am I guided by misplaced nationalism?

------
Gonzih
This isn't very nice thing to do... Deny education to people who don't have
any power to do changes in their country. Let's keep them stupid, now they
will know how to play with us. Great attitude.

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guard-of-terra
"All students from Syria" Both in loyalist and insurgent areas?

That's a Solomon solution, I have to admit.

------
airnomad
I guess Coursera could publicly denounce this particular type of government
policy and set up UK puppet company just to deliver courses to those
countries.

~~~
sentenza
No, won't work. Parent company is on the hook for subsidiaries.

~~~
vetinari
Make a new, independent UK company then and transfer ownership of US branch to
it (ie. UK=parent, US=subsidiary).

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tlarkworthy
I don't understand why people are surprised. There are loads of education
topics that are off limits. You can't get a VISA if you are studying certain
hot topics, particularly those that can be weaponized.

Are people really arguing for Bashar al Assad's right to study molecular
biology?

Why would you educate the engineers of an enemy state on how to build smart
weapons? Even if a 20 year old left leaning engineer doesn't want to hurt
anybody now, who knows where a lucrative career path will direct them in 10
years time.

~~~
riggins
My immediate assumption was this is not the US is trying to restrict
education.

I suspect this was triggered by Coursera accepting money. The US has laws
against doing business with certain countries. When Coursera started offering
signature track classes where they charged money they are now doing business
with restricted regimes.

I have been surprised that there is no discussion of your initial point, that
there are very rational reasons why a state might want to control access to
educational material. Sure maybe offering people will lead to greater humanity
... or maybe it will lead to terrorists who can build sophisticated drone
bombs. I don't know but I'm surprised it not a more prominent issue.

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jrockway
Didn't Bernstein v. US pretty much eliminate export restrictions on speech?

~~~
yuhong
OT, but I have sent you an email with michaelochurch on the CC list about
meeting Larry and Sergey. I hope I can add Piaw Na to the list too.

~~~
jrockway
Why don't you email the people you want to meet, rather than random people on
the Internet that can't help you?

~~~
yuhong
I wasn't sure if Larry and Sergey would respond to such emails.

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lazyant
Questions no American (elected) politician can answer honestly:

    
    
      - why is Cuba one of the four countries in the blacklist and not other totalitarian regimes like China etc?  
      - why is Marijuana illegal for the most part and not alcohol?  
      - have the Palestinians the right to defend themselves?

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johnmaddox
Ban Coursera and not Facebook because it gives information. This act provides
moral support for the banned countries. They do not have to think twice.

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atmosx
Coursera could establish an Office in Europe and accept foreign students from
there, if there is a interesting market. The whole e-learning thing, is
interesting and seems to be kind of exploding. I'm not sure about the quality
though

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V-2
Robert Fischer - and the US revoking his passport, officially because of him
playing a chess match in Serbia thus breaking the embargo - comes to mind.

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Houshalter
Do other websites also have to block access to these countries? I've never
heard of this before.

~~~
ucho
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_open-
source_softw...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_open-
source_software_hosting_facilities) SF and GoogleCode block was quite painful
for OSS community.

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puppetmaster3
Check w/ a lawyer and create a partner ship of-shore.

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sdaityari
How can education be used as a weapon?

