
The arm’s-length flats of Tokyo [video] - pseudolus
https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20190718-the-arms-length-flats-of-tokyo
======
SapporoChris
For those that prefer to reading versus video.
[https://www.japantimes.co.jp/life/2019/04/20/lifestyle/tokyo...](https://www.japantimes.co.jp/life/2019/04/20/lifestyle/tokyos-
tiny-living-spaces/)

From the video, I laughed at the comments of hearing the other tenants.

With my windows open in Sapporo Japan during the summer I can here
conversations clearly. I think from the floor below, guessing it bounces off
the next building which is but a couple meters away. I know every time the
baby wakes wet. During the winter with double windows I don't hear as much but
I do hear my neighbor belting out the songs in the shower. Like the
commentator in the video, it does create a sense of connectivity. If he's
happily singing in the shower then I'm happy for him and it makes me smile
every time.

However it makes me a little self conscious and I try to be quiet as possible.

Also very surprised to see a guitar in the video. Most agencies will ask if
you have instruments and likely deny or limit your apartment choices.

~~~
fencepost
The thing that really jumps at me is: don't get injured, disabled or just old.
If you're going to have problems with ladders you're going to have problems
living like this.

On the other hand, some things that take a lot of space are easier to replace
these days. Books? I _have_ a lot but I'm not _buying_ a lot of physical books
these days. Video collections? How many DVDs have _you_ bought in the past
year? TVs are thin, headphones are common, no need for that big multimedia
cabinet that used to hold a TV, stereo and media storage.

This is also going to tend to push some people towards "third spaces" for
socializing with friends. There's a very active Starbucks near me that's open
until midnight, always packed, and which in addition to a bunch of tables full
of laptops has several divided off areas with armchairs that regularly have
small groups chatting.

~~~
qarlow
Things don't take up much space in themselves, activities do. What you lose
when living smaller aren't the things themselves, but a kitchen were it is
easy to cook healthy food, a kitchen table to discuss politics at or a
workbench were you can leave your tools out. There isn't really much of a
replacement for those spaces. While I do think some American concepts are
outdated the idea of having capabilities in things like a larger home and a
car wasn't unfounded. One of the best ways to not be part of something is
simply to miss it. Having a lower standard of living is one easy way to do
that. It tends to be hard to explain way things happen, but fairly easy to
explain why they don't. People not having the time or space for them tends to
be a common one. (Of course it is still always hard for people to accept). The
'next big thing' is unlikely to be created at starbucks. They will be created
at kitchen tables and in garages and bedrooms like they always have been.
Because that is where you don't have to ask anyone for permission.

~~~
marmaduke
> Because that is where you don't have to ask anyone for permission

Some cities have hscker or maker spaces, but the result is similar (at least
what I've seen) : you can't leave you stuff out (it'll get stolen), make too
much noise etc. Nothing like a garage where no one will get on you for cutting
bricks with a chainsaw.

More simply we miss paying some bills by living in a small apartment where
there's not room enough for a desk to out to do that so they end up on the
kitchen table covered with kids' spaghetti etc

~~~
qarlow
There is of course also the opposite problem of having a lot of space but
ending up in essentially a house size cubicle without connection to other
people.

But it seems like the larger problem today is that it is hard for people to
wrap their heads around that when something becomes available, or even common,
whatever enables or let's you explore it becomes more important.

It used to be that to be a musician you had to end up in a studio or a stage
(or at least in lessons or rehearsals). People would fly across the world for
auditions and recordings. Today everyone can have their studio or even stage
at home. But that makes your home so much more important. If you don't have
the space, the time, if it is too costly, not connected to a community or
unstable then it is a lot harder to become a musician.

And that isn't just true for something like being a musician but everyday
things like cooking, reading or exercise were we now have more possibilities
than ever. Virtual cycling is for example a thing now.

------
esotericn
This is prioritising having a very short commute in Tokyo over anything else.
It's a good thing that such an option exists.

A few years back in London, I had friends living in small house/flat shares in
Zone 1 who would be paying the same amount as I did for an entire 1 bedroom
further out.

I didn't want to have flatmates, they saw it as an acceptable compromise.

The majority of people I speak to outside of the big city bubble see living in
flats/apartments at all as subpar/odd. It's a compromise for city living.

~~~
tziki
>It's a good thing that such an option exists.

I totally agree. It makes me irrationally mad that some cities like London and
Los Angeles enact policies meant to prevent small apartments on a pretense of
lofty words, completely ignorant to the fact that commute distance is one of
the largest factors in one's happiness and well-being.

This is one of the best examples of "no skin in the game" decision making, as
the vast majority of decision makers live in relative comfort and it costs
them almost nothing to pass this type of policies which signal value, don't
have immediate obviously bad effect and are not strongly opposed by anyone.
However, the cost is paid by the countless people who spend hours in traffic
and, consequently, the environment.

~~~
MickerNews
>I totally agree. It makes me irrationally mad that some cities like London
and Los Angeles enact policies meant to prevent small apartments on a pretense
of lofty words, completely ignorant to the fact that commute distance is one
of the largest factors in one's happiness and well-being.

Meanwhile all of northern England suffers from underemployment. The obvious
solution is to not concentrate jobs in one place. It makes me irrationally
angry that people can't see the obvious solution when it's staring them in the
face.

~~~
esotericn
If most of your jobs revolve around serving those with money, in person, then
they're going to be centered around wealthy areas.

That's as far as I see it how the UK has evolved. Basically everyone with
money lives in London or the Home Counties, so service employment is heavily
biased towards there.

I don't see how you can fix that without forcibly moving people.

------
burlesona
At first I thought that looked pretty bad, then I saw the price. ~740USD per
month, and it’s enabling young single people who only earn $1800-2400/mo to
live in the city near their jobs.

Beyond just enabling lower income people a place to live, if you had dorms
like that available in SF for $740/mo I think you’d have a long, long line of
young tech workers signing up to move in.

In the US, trading a very long commute for lower housing costs is widely
understood and socially acceptable, I wonder why trading a tiny space for low
rent and a short commute isn’t.

~~~
MickerNews
>In the US, trading a very long commute for lower housing costs is widely
understood and socially acceptable, I wonder why trading a tiny space for low
rent and a short commute isn’t.

Because it's a race to the bottom. In EU society minimum standards of
accommodation are socially acceptable. Allowing people to exploit the
desperate to all possible extents is anathema to any humane values.

Japan is already a caricature of extremist employee exploitation. It's not
something to emulate. I wonder why such a basic observation of the situation
isn't obvious to people "in the US".

~~~
s_m_t
I'd gladly trade the shared 900sq ft I pay ~$400 to rent for something smaller
but as far as I can tell I can't really rent anything cheaper in the entire
united states.

My roommate and I don't even know what to do with our living room. Spend money
filling up a space we don't actually care about? Nah, we've just been
collecting free shit to throw in there because we really don't care.

Thanks for keeping me from being 'exploited' though.

------
bruxis
I think it's important to realize that, and it's mentioned in the video
linked, individuals staying in these apartments are making a deliberate choice
so that they can have a better commute.

I've lived in central Tokyo in a rather large 1BR running ~$2,300 per month
and now reside a bit further out paying ~$1,600 for a smaller 1BR.

Many people in Tokyo live ~45 minutes commute to work (via admittedly crowded
trains) and pay significantly less for reasonably sized studio apartments.

~~~
throwaway2048
I mean of course its a deliberate choice, that's a truism, that doesn't mean
the conditions that lead them to make that choice are sensible.

~~~
mcny
> I mean of course its a deliberate choice, that's a truism, that doesn't mean
> the conditions that lead them to make that choice are sensible.

From what I understand, it is NOT a choice for the people of Hong Kong.

------
johnwalkr
I live in Tokyo. These apartments (9m^2) are definitely not the norm, a
typical tiny apartment is 20m^2 and a typical university dorm room for 1
person is 15m^2. They are just a bit more choice on the new/close/small,
old/far/larger list of housing options; they are not a widespread trend. Also,
the old/far/larger options are in livable neighborhoods with good public
transit. Transit is usually paid by your employer, so it makes sense that the
people in the video have non-traditional jobs without that perk. Roommates are
not a popular option, but other than that I find Tokyo to be quite good for
low end apartment options compared to say Vancouver (do you want a close moldy
basement suite with a roommate or a far moldy basement suite and car
dependency?).

~~~
mentos
I work remotely as a game developer been saving a bit of money living outside
a big city in the US. Tokyo/Japan has always been a dream destination for me
figure if I don’t visit in the next few years while I’m flexible I may never.

Any suggestions for someone visiting that does not speak Japanese?

~~~
CPLX
If you're literally talking about "visiting" as in a vacation or short trip,
you'll find that English works just fine and you'll be able to do/see pretty
much anything, perhaps with the occasional hand gesture or momentary
confusion.

~~~
h1d
> English woks just fine

Umm, no. People do not speak English unless it's hotel or airport but you have
plenty of signs written in English to support moving around. People will try
if you ask simple questions though.

~~~
lbatx
Umm, yes. Or more properly, English plus hand gestures. We're not talking
about defending a doctoral thesis here. We're talking about getting around,
shopping, and eating. Every subway station has signage in English. You can
point to things on a menu. Proof: millions of tourists go to Tokyo every year
and very few speak Japanese.

------
Iv
Lived 2 years in Tokyo. Could not stand it. The noise, the low ceilings (I am
1m90). Insulation seems unheard of.

Now we moved to the countryside, baby is much happier here. Can run, can jump.
The teenager can finally play guitar and piano, something she had zero place
to do in Tokyo. I now have a room where I can do some little electronics.
Impossible in Tokyo.

Tokyo is a city that grinds lives, it is chilling to witness.

~~~
discordance
There are a lot of music practice spaces if you want to make a lot of noise

~~~
chrischen
Yes like Yoyogi park, though hard to move a piano there.

------
_trampeltier
Why not. In most citys over the world, you can't really have your own
apartment if you are single and in a low paid job. This way people can. And
Tokyo has a great train and subway, so as long you can walk easy to a station,
I think that's cool. Not forever, but why not.

~~~
CydeWeys
Bicycling is pretty popular too (and drivers are more respectful there). So
you don't even need to be dependent on rail so long as you live within some
single digit kilometers of work.

To give you a concrete figure, I live in Manhattan and have a cross-town
commute (i.e. takes longer than an up/downtown commute of similar length) of 3
km that takes 10 minutes. I could easily do a longer commute no problem, and
it might even be good for me since I'd get more daily exercise.

------
jquery
I've lived in spaces this small, and smaller, but there were large common
areas and the small space was only meant for sleeping and storage. It was
unclear from the video what common spaces were available to these individuals.
I got the impression the apartments were "fully functional" (bathroom,
kitchen, living space). The extremely narrow hallway added to the impression
that the units were not part of a larger shared space.

The fact the option exists is better than nothing. These people did not seem
under duress and it was a choice they made over alternatives.

That said, it's a symptom of a wider problem when full-time workers are in
spaces that small, it tells us not enough units are being built to accommodate
demand. Just like SF's insane rents are symptomatic of a wider problem and not
merely the fault of wealthy people. More units would help as well as more jobs
in local communities instead of concentrating all the good jobs inside a small
city core (i.e., they said they did this to avoid commuting, wouldn't it be
nice if they didn't have to commute at all?).

And to the person who mentioned Hong Kong's "coffin beds", I agree, those were
straight out of a horror film and very sad to see.

~~~
kenneth
The issue in HK is poverty, not space. HK's blue collar workers are still
quite poor today, and so live in nasty conditions. Poor people everywhere live
in nasty conditions, it just so happens that the problems are different… e.g.
Bangkok or Manila or India.

~~~
drcode
I assume though if there was less poverty in Hong Kong, more space wouldn't
suddenly appear... the existing small spaces would just become nicer but more
expensive.

------
Ayesh
I'm a bit claustrophobic and the video made me uncomfortable. I understand the
financial and time saving reasons, but between an isolated place like this,
and a shared place with roommates, I would pick roommates any day of the week.

In Japan, with it's work culture of long work hours and most people working at
the same office for very long time, these apartments certainly makes sense.

~~~
MickerNews
It makes just as much sense for them to live in coffin size spaces with food
funnelled in tubes. Where does this absurdity end? "Making sense" and
accepting that you need to cater to real humans in a society are two things
that are rationally far apart. It doesn't "make sense" to pretend that human
needs of space have no consideration.

>In Japan, with it's work culture of long work hours and most people working
at the same office for very long time

This is not something that should be venerated above all else. It should be
condemned.

------
chrisseaton
That would be ok for literally just a bedroom. If they pooled all other living
and storage spaces and lived collectively, like in a military officers' mess
perhaps, it could work.

~~~
jamesknelson
This is actually a thing in Japan. A number of real estate companies manage
“share houses” where 10-20 people each get a ~9sqm room, with shared living
space, kitchen, bathroom, etc.

While I’ve never lived in one, the few times I’ve seen inside, they’ve been in
incredibly clean. People I know who’ve lived in these places generally have
nothing but good things to say about them. They’re often not cheap, though.
From what I’ve seen, they’re usually in central locations, and priced more
than a similarly sized room with your own kitchen/bathroom out in the suburbs.

~~~
namaemuta
I really like this idea. You have your personal space (I saw a video in which
you even have a small kitchen and bathroom in your room) and then the rest are
shared areas. I don't believe it could work in many other countries but in
Japan, where people are more concious of colaborating to keep everything clean
AFAIK, it could be a great way to fight the feeling of loneliness that is
spreading around the world.

------
rayraegah
Shared housing is becoming popular in Tokyo now, specially in Setagaya. Thanks
to Netflix and Terrace House for the hype and people are starting to realize
they can live better in a sharing accommodation that they wouldn't be able to
afford alone.

~~~
kibwen
Things like that might also have the unintentional benefit of providing a
sense of community and staving off the epidemic of loneliness that modern
society is sinking into.

~~~
namaemuta
I totally agree and I would love to see this idea implemented in many other
places but sadly not all the countries share the same mentality that Japan has
about social duties.

------
flyGuyOnTheSly
In North America, the tiny home movement is fledgling... more of a novelty
than a way of life for most people it seems.

Tiny homes are illegal in almost every single municipality due to zoning
restrictions.

Are the arm's-length flats regarded similarly in Tokyo? More of an experiment
than anything else? You can live here for a few months, but if someone gets
upset, you might have to move?

Do these tiny flats exist legally, and is their existence expanding I guess is
my question?

The second lady's apartment in the video for example... the pile of electrical
cords amongst all of her clothes looks like kind of a fire hazard that some
landlords would give you flak over in North America if they saw that.

~~~
design-of-homes
_" In North America, the tiny home movement is fledgling"_

The US is lucky to have so much open space which lets people build their own
tiny homes. The tiny homes don't feel cramped because they're surrounded by
nature, with beautiful long uninterrupted views out of the windows. No noisy
neighbours or traffic nearby either.

But take away the countryside location of these homes and could the tiny house
work in an urban environment? I doubt it. The future for housing for most
people on the planet (including the US) is in cities and urban environments.
Can you live in a tiny home where you don't have long, uninterrupted views out
of your windows? Or where you only have windows along one side of your
dwelling (e.g. single-aspect apartments). Do you feel you have enough privacy
when your apartment or house is joined with your neighbour's home?

Millions of people already live in homes like this and have to contend with
these issues. Can we have small or modest-sized homes that give us light,
space, privacy, quiet and comfort in a noisy urban setting? It's one of the
most pressing and important issues in housing design - and one that architects
and home builders have failed to address.

~~~
somebodynowhere
I lived in a space that size in an urban area for years. Saved money, had a
whole city to go out in. They call such arrangements a "crash pad". We had a
half decent kitchen, but enjoyed all the local restaurants, and the local
hackerspace for projects that took space, a store across the street for all
the things you didn't have the house. I'd much prefer living in a tiny urban
apartment to a rural space where you can't walk anywhere, have to store
everything you need at home, etc.

------
galago
$740!?!? In the Boston area, something like that would be at least $1200,
probably $1500.

~~~
CydeWeys
Seriously. I can see why people rent them; they're cheap! And you get to live
on your own! I was spending double that just for a bedroom in a 4-bedroom
apartment in Manhattan a year ago. The bedroom itself was not double the size
of the one pictured, though admittedly you have to account for the rest of the
apartment too.

------
cryptozeus
First we create problems then we create addiction to solve them and then we
come up with creative solutions like this. Does anyone else sees irony here ?

------
quelltext
There definitely are places in Tokyo (on/inside the Yamanote line) for way
under 80000 with more space.

Yup, they will be older but often you can find ones that have been fully
renovated.

Sure, there's the earthquake issue but something tells me those cardboard
boxes aren't much better at safety.

This is only anecdotal but my impression is that everybody wants to live in a
newly built house and then after a few years move again into another flat in a
newly built house. So, there's at any point a whole lot of empty and just fine
places in Tokyo. I just wish their rents would drop further.

------
amoitnga
This may be dangerous to perceive this as the norm. Thinking back, a lot of
things considered horrible today were the norm not that long ago.

We should think really hard about whether to accept this and make an argument:
"no one forced those ppl in it". It's not the point. I'm sure we can do
better. Is it beyond our abilities to figure out a good living condiditions?
in year 2020? Really?

I'm horrified by the idea that in order to have a decent job, I'd have to live
in such conditions. Can you imagine if it's not few ppl, but hundreds of
thousands? All of New York?

No, thanks.

~~~
logicchains
Don't impose your preferences on other people. Personally I think having to
commute an hour to and from work sounds horrible, as does the idea of living
in a suburb with barely any restaurants or people around compared to the city
centre. I can't be the only one who would happily trade reduced living space
for reduced commute and a more urban location. Different people care about
different things.

------
ishtanbul
i feel claustrophobic watching that. islands are great for commerce but space
is inherently rare. Japan, hong kong, manhattan, san francisco (peninsula),
singapore. all business centers with shocking rents

~~~
kenneth
There's plenty of space in rural Japan, it's just people choose to live in
Tokyo, the cultural and economic hub of the country. Rural towns are literally
paying people to move back.

Being an Island has nothing to do with the crowdedness.

Hong Kong is just as crowded in Kowloon, which isn't an Island. London is
pretty crazy packed too and isn't an Island.

~~~
antepodius
Britain is an island, though!

~~~
kenneth
So is Australia… but that's not really relevant to the population density in
London or Sydney. Both Islands are country-sized and have plenty of empty
land.

------
Aeolun
I don’t know, 9 square meters is anything but cupboard size to me. Plus this
likely doesn’t count the space for the kitchen and shower/toilet area.

4.5J (6 sqm) and 6J (9 sqm) is fairly normal for an urban apartment.

~~~
coldtea
> _I don’t know, 9 square meters is anything but cupboard size to me._

For a whole apartment (even excluding kitchen/shower)? Let's be generous and
say it's double. Where in the west is 18 sq m. not closer to a cupboard than a
house?

~~~
jamesknelson
These places are _actually_ 9 square meters, including kitchen and bathroom.
Typically, the “kitchen” is a hole in the wall which is barely big enough to
use to prepare instant ramen, and the bathroom/toilet/shower are combined into
a small plastic cube-like room called a “unit bath”.

The catch is that there is a loft which doesn’t count towards the square
meterage.

In contrast, an 18sqm place can have a kitchen with two burners where you can
actually prepare food, a door between the kitchen and your bedroom so you
don’t stink the place up while cooking, and can even have separate rooms for
the toilet and sink. A lot of people I've met consider this pretty luxurious,
at least in central Tokyo.

------
coldtea
> _In spite of its speedily greying population, urban density remains high,
> and affordable housing is a challenge for young professionals._

Let's see what happens in 15 years...

------
chrischen
I’ve stayed at a friend’s house about 30-40 minutes from inner Tokyo on a
single train ride (which is about the second last stop on one of the subway
lines). It was a relatively normal sized 1-bedroom apartment for about $800
USD a month. You definitely have options in Tokyo, and the infrastructure
makes housing choices like this possible (live closer in the city or live
further out).

~~~
skellera
The video goes over this. Some people don’t like to commute.

------
arvinsim
The "coffin" beds in Hongkong are worse.

------
beaker52
I see the same articles year after year. It's like the internet is on loop
sometimes.

~~~
kgwgk

      What has been will be again,
      what has been done will be done again;
      there is nothing new under the sun.
    

Ecclesiastes 1:9

------
jccalhoun
"Watch the video to find out how it could be a creative (if claustrophobic)
housing solution for many young workers."

This isn't really a "solution." It is more like enabling the system to
continue the way it is.

------
Mindless2112
Some are even less than "arms length":
[https://youtu.be/TYVJbupG3Xg](https://youtu.be/TYVJbupG3Xg)

------
faissaloo
While I dislike that this is even a thing, from a pragmatic standpoint I
wouldn't mind living there if it was cheap.

------
sys_64738
I’d be concerned about evacuation of these in case of fire. Do these meet
zoning requirements?

------
qwsxyh
ITT: Shitty abysmal living conditions are good because _mumbles about commute_

------
purple_ducks
Disgraceful that these were allowed be built in the first place.

People defacto forced in to these out of necessity, not choice.

~~~
purple_ducks
Oh dear. Seems I've upset the Ayn Rand crowd.

~~~
dang
Please don't post unsubstantive comments here.

