
iMac Pro - brianhama
https://www.apple.com/imac-pro/
======
jmull
Is there something new here?

(I ask because it was announced months ago and isn’t due out for a few more
months.)

Looks great though. It’s a little overpowered for the stuff I do, where the
demanding things are distributed systems which don’t make sense to host on a
workstation, even in simulation. But I sure wouldn’t mind one.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
I'm a programmer and so buy middle of the line macbook pros with mid range
CPUs, mid range RAM, and integrated GPUS. Ironically, my wife, a designer,
always chastises me for getting such slow hardware: turns out what works for a
programmer doesn't work for soemone who has to use a lot of Adobe CSS :). I
assume this iMac pro would be for her, not for me.

~~~
fhood
I'm a programmer and I tend to buy the thing with the largest numbers. I
justify it by admitting to myself that I am only buying it because it has the
largest numbers, and that it will last me longer, thus causing less pollution.
But really it is just because of the numbers.

~~~
to3m
I do this too. You'll never have buyers' remorse if you buy the one with the
largest numbers, nor will you ever run out of disk space.

~~~
styfle
I tend to squeeze every penny and I have a bit of buyer's remorse for buying a
refurbished MacBook 2015 with the smallest storage: 128 GB.

Everything else is great, but I'm constantly finding myself in situations
where I am about to install Docker, or go-lang, or something I am
experimenting with and eventually come to the conclusion...not worth it to
install.

Should I fire up Garage Band? Nope, I probably will use it twice and then it
will sit there taking up disk space.

I'm trying to take advantage of more "cloud" solutions but they're not the
same :(

~~~
Caprinicus
You can replace the ssd on that MacBook. It won’t be cheap, but storage that
fast isn’t anyways. I have the 1tb ssd from a MacBook in my windows desktop

~~~
harrygeez
It won't be the same tho. The system doesn't detect it as a 'native' disc.

------
peatmoss
This is an impressive feat of engineering to get all that hardware into a that
kind of a package, but man, I bet there are a lot of pros who'd have preferred
an aluminum box that they could open up. No fixability / no upgradability is
the price we pay for laptops, but does it really have to be the price for
desktops? I'd think that swapping a video card or adding a drive or two is the
sort of thing that one might do over the lifespan of this thing.

I guess after this machine is obsolete, there's a "screen mode" where these
things can be used as a monitor and the 18 Xeon cores are powered down?

~~~
crispyambulance
You "can" swap out parts and repair iMacs, it is just not something one does
casually. You need tools, instructions, skills and will-power.

The thing is most people, even pros, don't bother with that stuff even when
they have Dell boxes. Apple knows that and, I think, trades off ease-of-repair
for sleekness and mostly wins out (until recently).

AFAIK, there is no "screen mode" that enables one to use these things as
monitors.

~~~
gnicholas
> * AFAIK, there is no "screen mode" that enables one to use these things as
> monitors.*

You actually can! It's called Target Display mode:

[https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204592](https://support.apple.com/en-
us/HT204592)

~~~
akvadrako
Not for the iMac Pro.

~~~
gnicholas
Very interesting – is this documented by Apple? Can’t imagine why they’d
disallow this, though of course an iMac pro would be a very expensive external
monitor....

~~~
dharma1
"iMac (Retina 5K, 27-inch, Late 2014) and later iMac models can't be used as
Target Display Mode displays."

From the page you linked. It hasn't been possible with new iMac models since
2014. I'd expect the Pro to be the same.

Personally I would love it if tablets and new iMacs had video input to enable
use as external monitors but unfortunately not

~~~
gnicholas
Wow, totally blew it on that one. Sorry! Like you, I wish this were still
available on newer iMacs. I wonder why this useful feature was so short-lived.

------
urza
I would worry that something breaks after warranty expires and the whole
computer can go out of the window. With regular good old desktops you can just
replace the broken part. With such special custom made hardware it is
sometimes impossible. For example the macbook airs have non standard ssd that
is not replaceable, so when the disk dies, whole notebook is done...

~~~
coldtea
> _For example the macbook airs have non standard ssd that is not replaceable,
> so when the disk dies, whole notebook is done..._

Or you can go and get either a warranty extension (before it runs out) or an
aftermarket SSD, like millions (including me) have done.

~~~
stefco_
But you _can 't_ do that with the latest MacBooks, which have their SSDs
soldered directly onto the logic boards. And you can't do that with memory for
any Apple notebook from the last several years for the same reason.

My 7 year old MacBook Pro is running okay thanks to some memory and storage
upgrades. I would not be able to get the same life extension with one of the
new models, which makes me hesitate to get a new Mac.

~~~
aNoob7000
To be fair, most new laptops like the Surface Pro or Dell's XPS 13 make it
pretty darn hard to upgrade the memory or hard drive.

~~~
huhtenberg
> _most new laptops_

_ _some_ _ new laptops

Most new laptops are still fully serviceable.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Most is really ambiguous here. By units sold? Probably not (mass quantity low
end laptops aren't upgradable). By dollar amount sold? Definitely not (Apple
has an outsized share of the market based on revenue). By new models?
Probably.

~~~
Someone
_”Apple has an outsized share of the market based on revenue”_

On profit, I can believe, but on revenue? Even at 10% market share, Macs would
have to be five times the price of PCs to bring in equal revenue.

~~~
valuearb
Apple has about 7% of pc market world-wide. It's average sales price is around
$1,200 to $1,400 (haven't checked lately). Average PC maker ASP is $500-$600,
so Apple likely has 15-20% of market by revenues, and more than 50% of market
profits, given it's 15-20% margins vs. 2% PC maker margins.

This is all PCs. In laptops it's likely that Apple's share is even higher.

------
bkdbkd
Amateur extreme. Pro's need a machine that can evolve over time. More memory,
larger storage as it becomes available, God forbid - a faster cpu. Remember
the PC platform is inherently upgradeable. The LGA2066 chipset can be used
with 8+ different CPU's. Pro's invest in proper tools to support their work,
not in souped up toys. Without offense meant to my Honda bretheren, this in
the same line as the $100,000 Civic mods. You certainly can, and it will be
cool, but possibly not the best use of that money.

Its attractive because of the top end features. But they come in trapped in a
disposable package. While that would not be terrible for $300 laptop, it is a
piss-poor investment for what 9to5mac says will be a $17,500 top of the line
box. Why? The instant one of the features is offspec,too little, to slow , you
have an entire $17,000 machine that's too little, too slow.

And no mic input? Why? That's just silly. It cost them more to leave that out.

It belongs with Pro-Racecars, with prepacked engines and hoods welded shut,
and with Pro-Lawn tools with no serviceable parts.

~~~
evilduck
I hear this sentiment all the time that "pro users need the ability to
upgrade" but not once in a decade of my professional programming career have I
_ever_ seen a computer at a workplace upgraded. They get purchased, they get
repaired, they get retired or they trickle down to "lesser users", but I've
never seen anyone get additional RAM or a drop in CPU replacement on an
employer-owned machine. If you needed a better computer all I've ever seen is
a new computer purchased.

~~~
bkdbkd
I've been a 'pro' software engineer for a couple decades and the large place's
I've worked have actually upgraded machines that actually could be upgraded:
with more ram, better video, etc. I did a couple years as an IT Consultant and
every single small shop, contractor, developer, video editor, recording
studio, who are also 'Pros' by the way, I've ever worked with has always
looked to upgrade their hardware before buying again. At $4k - $17k a machine,
it's simple math. The machine's not dead, but its time for a new gpu, or hard
drive, or more ram. The pc platform is designed for upgrading, from mouse to
motherboard. It takes work to make it not.

Thinking about it, Apple's genius has been finding this line: "How closed can
we go, how disposable can we make them and maximize churn, while not slowing
down buying. We can even create a desire for churn [it's September, time for a
new $600 phone, anyone?] Its exactly like the one you have, only different."
As others have pointed out here, the dog and pony show they put on recently,
by inviting a select group of reporters (market influencers) into their hq was
damage control when several magazines/sites called them out for crossing this
line. New machines with lower specs than older machines, gaming battery life
tests, irrational pricing, and selling 5 year old spec machines as 'Pro'. I
might recommend reading the reporting of the meeting, it's a textbook example
of high-end one-on-one selling, impressive location, the appearance of
insider-access, sealed with a personal commitment from the leaders. Meanwhile,
they don't have a 'pro' product line, and though they have enough cash on hand
to buy every pro team in every sport in the U.S. they haven't made any
investments or advancements in pro pc technology in a decade. And that's cool,
if apple doesn't want to fill the gap, someone will fill the space eventually.

And I concede that the headphone jack is fine, it;s a combo, first glance i
assumed just output. That works.

~~~
vacri
Apple clearly think that the segment of the 'pro' market that desires
upgradability is smaller than the reach they get from having 'all-in-one'.

------
jarym
Seeing the history of updates to the Mac Mini and Mac Pro why would anyone
trust Apple with a high end desktop computer? The odds are high that they'll
keep pumping this thing largely unchanged for the next 5 years while letting
the state of technology race ahead.

I'm saying this because no matter what Apple say, their focus is undoubtedly
on what makes them the most money: iPhones.

~~~
coldtea
> _Seeing the history of updates to the Mac Mini and Mac Pro why would anyone
> trust Apple with a high end desktop computer?_

Because they don't buy for the next 20 years, but for their actual current
needs. If anything happens and the line stops, I can always go find another
solution then and there, as opposed to now.

Besides, this is like a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.
There were several cases for concern (e.g. when the MacPro wasn't updated
properly for 3 years).

The day of the release of a new Pro machine is the exact opposite of that.

~~~
walshemj
Moving from a MAC pro workflow to a Wintel (i9 Xenon or AMD) is non trivial
you might as well bight the bullet and go threadripper or EPYC now

~~~
coldtea
> _Moving from a MAC pro workflow to a Wintel (i9 Xenon or AMD) is non
> trivial_

So what do I earn from "biting the bullet"?

I go through a non trivial process for merely the possibility that the iMac
Pro might not have continued new models (which will only matter to me in 2-3
years at earlier if I buy it).

And that when there's already another Mac Pro model announced for 2018.

~~~
walshemj
Your laying off the risk of apple either abandoning the pro market or at best
ignoring it as it has for the last few years.

~~~
coldtea
> _Your laying off the risk of apple either abandoning the pro market or at
> best ignoring it as it has for the last few years._

I'm not laying off the risk though -- I'm taking the same hit, only
voluntarily.

My question was meant as: what I get by making the transition before that's
actually the case?

I can always not take the risk until there's actually a reason.

------
alkonaut
Impressive engineering to get that kilowatt-level power envelope into what
looks literally like an envelope.

Then the next question: is the target audience really there?

The people who need 18 cores + a pro graphics card are the people who used to
have mac pros (or still use them). These people care about expandable and
replacable things, and most of all they want to use a screen with several
computers because these pro screens cost a ton (Often more than the machine if
you want a screen for e.g. video color grading or really serious photo work).

If the screen on this thing isn't up for the task ,then it's an expensive
useless addition. If it is that good, then it's a waste to throw it out in 2
years when you replace the machine.

I mean I'm not saying this thing won't sell like hotcakes because it's an
impressive machine and a not-very-price-sensitive customer group. But it just
feels like they could have stuck these bits into the _last_ mac pro tower,
painted it black and had this product out sooner and cheaper than this?

~~~
j2bax
>These people care about expandable and replacable things

Apple likely has data that says there are enough people that don't care about
these things to justify their production of this computer. I work in an office
full of designers, illustrators, animators and developers and there are very
few of them that have much of a passion for messing around with the hardware
and would far prefer to just upgrade every few years (we also don't really
have much of an IT infrastructure). We buy Mac's and replace them when they
are no longer working optimally for our team. That said, we've had some iMacs
last 4-6 years with no complaints from their operators. I will caveat that and
say that I did go through and replace all the HDD with SSD's on the oldest
round of iMac's before you could get the Fusion or SSD upon order for a
reasonable price.

~~~
sangnoir
> Apple likely has data that says there are enough people that don't care
> about these things to justify their production of this computer.

I wouldn't bet on Apple having a finger on the pulse of the pro market ever
since I witnessed the reception of Final Cut "Pro" X.

~~~
j2bax
Maybe they determined that there was more money to be had and a lack of
options in the prosumer space between iMovie and Final Cut. The influx of
home-baked content producers on Youtube comes to mind.

------
bischofs
Linux is getting better as a desktop OS. I hope that continues so Apple gets
some competition - Marketing an all-in-one as a Pro machine is just arrogant,
I don't care whats under the hood the form factor is wrong.

I have been using mint 18 with cinnamon 3 and its a nice GUI and rock solid
stable. It runs my dev env but also 24/7 servers and a few daemons. I just
added some more ram for cheap (up to 24GB ) to run more docker containers.

Its hard to see how I could mirror this on OSX without spending a small
fortune. I also own a macbook pro but due to donglegate its mostly for
browsing the internet and light tasks (which i guess is what most apple
products are designed for these days)

~~~
allwein
What is "donglegate"?

~~~
bischofs
The MBP has 4 thunderbolt USB-C ports and nothing else, everything I own does
not support USB-C (including my iphone).

I like the idea of a single cable for everything but I cant afford to replace
my monitors, keyboard, mouse, speakers etc. all at once.

------
ksec
1\. For those who are criticizing upgradablity, there is a NEW Mac Pro design
coming in 2018, modular and upgradable. I hope it will be a Cheese Grater like
design but fits into a 3U Size Rack. I am pretty sure there are
"comparatively" huge demand for Mac on Rack, and OSX Server in General.

2\. The iMac Pro are really geared towards large segments of 3D Gfx, Photos
and Videos Pros. So Professional Programmers may not be its target audience.

3\. I dont believe the Cooling system is anything new. It is well engineered,
but not new innovation. Which really pisses me off is because they could have
done this a lot sooner, and they decide it is for iMac Pro and 27" only. I
wish the normal 21 and 27 iMac gets more powerful CPU and GPU as well with the
same cooling system.

4\. There is nothing new on this page, why is it posted?

------
H1Supreme
People buy desktop Mac's for the OS. Period. If Apple sold licenses for MacOS,
no one would be spending $5,000 on a new iMac pro. They would spend half that
for a dual GTX-1080 wielding juggernaut of a desktop. Or, about a grand for
something reasonable.

Either way, no one would be trying to convince themselves that this thing is
somehow worth this price tag. Because it's not. Luckily, it's piss easy to
install macOS on PC hardware, if that's your bag. All the new Nvidia cards
work great too.

~~~
jonknee
> Or, about a grand for something reasonable.

A comparable display alone runs more than a grand.

------
vbezhenar
I'm not amazed. This processor will inevitable throttle, I don't believe that
they could cool it to allow for constant boosting. Graphics looks like trash:
it's a consumer video card (no ECC, bad double precision speed) inferior to
Nvidia. And of course everything glued together will render this PC obsolete
in few years without any upgrade path.

I hope they'll build a proper Mac Pro.

~~~
coldtea
No wireless, less space than a Nomad too.

~~~
coredog64
When the original trash can pro was released, AMD was a reasonable video
choice. Unless Apple is also going to release a CUDA compatibility layer, I
think most people would want an Nvidia video solution.

------
KaiserPro
If you want CPU/GPU power on a more realistic budget, I'd suggest something
like the HP Z620/640.

Dual xeons, loads of disk space, and enough power to put at least two tiptop
GPUs in.

~~~
ricardobeat
But no macOS - despite a few warts and declining quality, still the best
desktop operating system available.

~~~
walshemj
Realy have they finally replaced finder with something as usable as filemanger
in windows 3.1

~~~
fhood
What do you have against finder?

~~~
walshemj
its hard to work with and it hasn't changed in essence from the pre OSX Mac
Operating systems

~~~
fhood
I mean specifically. Is it a UI thing or something more technical?

~~~
laichzeit0
Unless you've used something better than Finder, you will have no idea how
much it actually sucks.

I say this as a Mac user that's used Linux for most of his life: Finder sucks.
I don't feel like hashing out all the reasons for why right now. Nothing I say
on a little Internet forum will change that.

~~~
SirZimzim
Yeah, my experience with Mac is that it "just works" after extensive
configuration file edits and dozens of helper applications. I have never
modified any other OS to this extent to get the basics working.

------
demarq
To all the people banging on about upgrades... exactly what in the name of
silica are you working on that this machine can not possibly handle for the
next 5 years? What could you possibly want to upgrade? And what are you
currently running?

~~~
bischofs
This is the attitude that I find incessantly arrogant. And it is probably the
same attitude that Tim Cook and the apple leadership have.

Just because you cannot imagine what people might need to use a computer for
does not give you the right to tell them how much performance they need.

Perhaps they are going to the arctic circle and have to rely on parts lying
around if anything breaks!

Perhaps they work with cutting edge computer graphics and need a brand new GPU
with a certain new feature or hardware chip to test out!

Perhaps they are simulating something gigantic and it is easier to test out
parts of the code on a local machine with a PCIe add in card before pushing it
to a supercomputer.

This is the definition of a PRO machine, people who have extraordinary
requirements and need power and flexibility. Stop telling them they have
"enough", you are not in the position to make that call.

~~~
matthewmacleod
_This is the definition of a PRO machine, people who have extraordinary
requirements and need power and flexibility. Stop telling them they have
"enough", you are not in the position to make that call._

With respect though, you're talking about different sets of constraints.

The iMac pro is inevitably targeted at the group of people who don't need to
upgrade, and maybe they will replace their machine every three to five years.
Realistically, there is a limited amount of upgrading that will be done for
most users, meaning that engineering effort that goes into building an
expandable machine is relatively wasted.

The iMac Pro will not be suitable for every professional user, but it will
cover a lot of use cases, and that's okay. If you do need an expandable
machine, then there are other options there – but most people don't.

------
pyrophane
Maybe for graphics professionals who don’t like Windows and can’t get the
software they need on Linux. Otherwise, especially for devs, it would just
make so much more sense to build a PC for the upgradability if nothing else.
Being able to drop in a new card or CPU as desired is a pretty big perk,
although I find it somewhat strange to be describing it that way, as it used
to be a given.

~~~
rhinoceraptor
You can also build tiny (compared to the PCs 5-10 years ago) powerhouses
thanks to the rise of enthusiast mini ITX boards and SFX power supplies. My
new tower is small enough to fit in a backpack, but it can fit a full size
reference video card, 4 2.5” drives, and the motherboard has two M.2 slots.

------
Shivetya
I will be blunt, all I have seen since day one is a photoshop exercise with a
pretty web page in an attempt to save face after some influential sites
starting bashing Apple for letting the previous model languish for three
years.

Has there ever been a test system that was allowed to be used by a third
party? Considering how far they pushed off "release" it all smacked of "cya".

with regards to the design, AIO. There are still many rumors of a new iMac
chassis for the next iteration so why would the Mac Pro not debut the new
chassis but instead soldier on with the old chassis?

I take no issue with a line of iMac Pro work stations but a stand alone tower
is still a requirement in a Pro line. Even with Thunderbolt supporting high
speed external devices the one element I really don't want baked in is my
screen

------
graycrow
Why is this considered news? It was announced at WWDC in June, no?

~~~
Toine
I don't understand either, why was is posted, why was it upvoted, why is it
commented ?

------
coryfklein
Re: "Can't upgrade it like a PC"

I have found that my Apple devices retain value much better than a PC, so when
2-3 years have passed I sell the old one, recouping some cash, then buy a
new/new-ish one. That "upgrade" costs more than only buying new RAM but when
considering that you get brand new _everything_ the price is about right IMO.

Good luck taking that PC with an 8-year old motherboard and $1200 in upgrades
and getting anything out of it on eBay.

~~~
H1Supreme
Who buys computers for their resale value? An 8 year old mac is worth exactly
jack shit (I have one, it's fetching $150 on eBay). You buy a computer for
it's performance and usability.

And, putting a new graphics card in your computer for a couple hundred dollars
is more desirable, imo, than trading it in. Especially considering that CPU
performance has not increased substantially in the last couple years.

~~~
coryfklein
> Who buys computers for their resale value?

I never said people do. But it certainly is a positive factor that Apple
computers have that others don't.

Most don't pick a PC just for the capability of upgrading the graphics card 4
years down the road. But it certainly is a positive factor that PCs have that
others don't.

> Especially considering that CPU performance has not increased substantially
> in the last couple years.

Which, if true, would not count as evidence in favor of interchangeable CPUs.
Are there other parts that haven't increased substantially in the last couple
years?

------
ungzd
Looks like they returned some of NeXT's aesthetics.

------
captainmuon
I neither need nor can afford one, and as other have commented, for a
"professional" an all-in-one computer is rather impractical. I'd much rather
have a simple box where I can replace individual components, or the monitor,
if it breaks.

That being said, I'm interested in the new magic keyboard: wide, and in space
grey. Would look pretty nice with my hackintosh :-P

------
vacri
Ends on a bit of a fizzer. "Cool stuff, cool stuff, cool stuff, and the
keyboard is gray and has a numpad now".

~~~
fnwx17
Think of how excited accountants will be to be able to have a numpad!

~~~
Cthulhu_
Don't Real Programmers write in binary?

~~~
akhilome
No, they use punch cards

------
jmnicolas
If they manage to get the 18 core processor without thermal throttling it will
be a real feat of engineering, but I doubt it's possible.

Throttling or not, I wish I was rich enough (we're probably talking about a 6
to 8k machine here !).

~~~
strictnein
> we're probably talking about a 6 to 8k machine here !

Yeah, the retail on that processor is $2k.

~~~
valuearb
$5k is the base price.

~~~
strictnein
I thought you were joking, but then I looked it up and you're right. That's
just insane.

~~~
valuearb
Insane? You can barely build a frankenPC with those parts for that price.

------
bfrog
Good luck with that. Non-replaceable video card seems like a tough sell to me.

------
devmunchies
A dark magic mouse and keyboard at the very bottom of the page. Thats new.

~~~
Corrado
When the new MBP was introduced a year ago a big part of the demonstration was
targeted toward professionals and how they would use the new Touch Bar. Where
is the Touch Bar for this professional machine? The new keyboard would be a
perfect place to launch such a feature, yet it is not included.

------
lloyd678
This landing page is really shoddy for a premium Apple product

~~~
dilap
on iOS, the weird tricks they are playing with scrolling means that between
sections, you are dragging your finger with literally no response at all from
the webpage.

the whole beauty of a a touch device is the physicality -- it feels like
you're actually interacting with a real physical system embedded below the
screen.

someone should tell web designers to stop messing that up.

------
yuhong
Interestingly, the spec still says 128GB of RAM despite the fact that the
price of 64GB LR-DIMMs are getting closer to the price of 32GB RDIMMs.

------
gbersac
What a monster ! 4 tera SSD, 18 Giga RAM, 18 cores...

~~~
YouKnowBetter
What's more: with a 3.5 mm headphone jack!

~~~
ungzd
It should have XLR instead.

~~~
ngcazz
And MIDI in and out, evidently.

~~~
toxican
All sound via an internal speaker, please.

------
kar1181
No mention of the word upgrade anywhere. A pro computer needs to be re-
configurable after purchase.

~~~
Aaargh20318
The iMac Pro is basically a stopgap until the new Mac Pro's arrive next year.

They actually acknowledged they messed up with the 'dustbin' Mac Pro and it's
lack of upgradability, which is a first.
([https://www.theverge.com/2017/4/4/15175994/apple-mac-pro-
fai...](https://www.theverge.com/2017/4/4/15175994/apple-mac-pro-failure-
admission)). They are working on a completely new Mac Pro to address the
issues actual pro's have, but that's going to take a while. The iMac Pro is
just here to fill the gap.

------
mewwts
So how's this going to perform for Deep Learning?

~~~
runholm
Performance per $ isn't great, but the hardware is good. If you want to crunch
data like a champion you need to spend the same $ on a desktop with a big fat
GPU suited for GPGPU tasks and with proper cooling. The rest of the system
doesn't really need to be insane, but you have to be able to keep up with the
GPU.

I doubt the iMac can keep running with a high load over time without thermal
throttling.

~~~
dagw
The other crux is that it is a Radeon GPU and not a Nvidia GPU, so you cannot
(effectively) use any Deep Learning library that targets CUDA/cuDNN.

------
fredmonroe
i was hoping for nvidia :(

------
chiph
Why is this an iMac and not a Mac Pro? Did they decide that the "can" wasn't
being bought in enough numbers?

~~~
Gaelan
Iirc the can had some thermal issues with anything more that it’s current
specs. Apple says a redesigned Pro is in the works.

