
Imitate. We are imperfect mirrors - todayiamme
http://sivers.org/mirror
======
elliots
This is an insight shared by many artists. My favourite, and perhaps the most
blunt, take on it is by Picasso:

 _" What does it mean for a painter to paint in the manner of So-and-So or to
actually imitate someone else? What's wrong with that? On the contrary, it's a
good idea. You should constantly try to paint like someone else. But the thing
is, you can't! You would like to. You try. But it turns out to be a botch… And
at the very moment you make a botch of it that you're yourself."_

~~~
sivers
Thanks for this. I hadn't heard the full quote before. People often quote the
“great artists steal” line from him - including Steve Jobs -
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW0DUg63lqU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW0DUg63lqU)
\- but the fuller idea is much more interesting.

~~~
gruseom
The "great artists steal" line comes not from Picasso but from T.S. Eliot.
Lots of previous discussion about this:

[https://hn.algolia.com/?q=picasso+eliot#!/comment/forever/0/...](https://hn.algolia.com/?q=picasso+eliot#!/comment/forever/0/picasso)
eliot

The line that elliots (not to be confused with T.S. Eliot!) quoted turns out
to be authentic, though—or at least there's some evidence for it:

[http://books.google.com/books?id=OJTKZeXaUvkC&lpg=PA53&dq=%2...](http://books.google.com/books?id=OJTKZeXaUvkC&lpg=PA53&dq=%22You%20should%20constantly%20try%20to%20paint%20like%20someone%20else%22&pg=PA53#v=onepage&q=%22You%20should%20constantly%20try%20to%20paint%20like%20someone%20else%22&f=false)

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girvo
I've been learning music production. Do you know how? By creating copies of
tracks that inspire me, from scratch.

I learnt how to program websites when I was 14. Do you know how? I copied a
site a loved and made it my own, from scratch.

This is simply my favourite way of learning. Whenever I lack inspiration for
something, I go copy, recreate, adjust. Because hey, at the end of the day,
everything is a remix!

~~~
frik
What applications can you suggestion for music production?

* Scorewriter program like Sibelius, Finale?

* or a digital audio workstation like FL Studio, Cubase, Pro Tools?

Maybe someone also knows some good blogs, tutorials for beginners.

~~~
JonnieCache
Be wary of this. Electronic music is traditionally defined by the out-of-the-
box workflow of the limited tools available. By extracting every last ounce of
creative potential from a box that does 3 things. "Surrendering to the
machine," if you will.

The unlimited potential of modern music software will cripple you, and the
first step in this is the impossible choice of which software to use. It gets
worse from there on out.

If you are already a musician then it makes sense to seek out the powerful
tools which will allow you to implement your already fully-formed musical
ideas. However, if you want to just create "electronic music," the way to do
this is by trial and error, and extensive practice with _one tool,_ which tool
is not important.

Skrillex, Basic Channel etc did not come up with their distinctive sound
palettes by imagining them in advance and then seeking out the "best" tools to
implement them. They did it by turning all of the knobs on the 2 or 3 tools
they had, plugging them all into each other backwards and upside down until a
sound came out that they liked.

If you want to make "electronic music," that's how it's done. However hard you
try and do it deliberately, you will eventually come back to letting the
machine play its proper part.

The other universal truth is that when you discover how your favourite
producer did something that sounds incredibly complex to you, it have been via
an incredibly simple technique that they didn't really understand. "I just
plugged the output back into the input, turned it up to 11 and that sound came
out." They were able to discover this because they weren't worrying about
tutorials and decisions, they were too busy turning it up to 11.

(Note that this is what guitar/piano/etc musicians have been doing for
centuries, because they had no choice. How much great music do you think
beethoven would have written if he'd had to choose from 10,000 pianos? Would
the music that he did write be better or worse?)

EDIT: so, practical advice: try some tools. As soon as you find a small set of
tools which you find intuitive, stop looking for more. Use the tools
intensively until you have pretty much exhausted them, or got really bored. By
then you should be pretty accomplished, so the search for new tools will no
longer be painful and limiting, but fun and empowering.

If you're brave, choose a software package at random. Or go to your local pawn
shop, buy the first piece of music gear that catches your eye, and force
yourself to write 10 tracks with it and only it, no matter how pitiful it
might be.

~~~
frik
Thank you for the long and very good post!

I am still searching for a tool that doesn't limit me. I went from experiments
with Reaktor and FruityLoops 3 (~ 10 years ago) to MIDI and score editors with
virtual instruments. But that was the wrong direction.

Things have apparently improved and there are now professional tools available
for Windows. I already played around with a virtual Swarmatron and reproduced
sounds like in Social Network and the iconic THX sound. And I will simply try
some tools and choose the one with the best interface :)

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chrisdevereux
Most of my best ideas come from misunderstanding other ideas.

One thing I'd add to this: Replicate work that _you_ respect and appreciate,
not work that seems to be successful. To me, that's the difference between
copying and stealing in the often-quoted "Great artists steal..." line.

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pmcpinto
This reminds me an amazing quote by Jim Jarmush:

Nothing is original. Steal from anywhere that resonates with inspiration or
fuels your imagination. Devour old films, new films, music, books, paintings,
photographs, poems, dreams, random conversations, architecture, bridges,
street signs, trees, clouds, bodies of water, light and shadows. Select only
things to steal from that speak directly to your soul. If you do this, your
work (and theft) will be authentic. Authenticity is invaluable; originality is
non-existent. And don’t bother concealing your thievery - celebrate it if you
feel like it. In any case, always remember what Jean-Luc Godard said: “It’s
not where you take things from - it’s where you take them to.

------
codelucas
I love this! When learning to program, I wrote a clone of a basic java game by
Notch:

Mine: [http://codelucas.com/pages/island-
overlord.html](http://codelucas.com/pages/island-overlord.html) His:
[https://mojang.com/notch/ld12/breaking/](https://mojang.com/notch/ld12/breaking/)

The code: Mine:
[https://github.com/codelucas/islandoverlord](https://github.com/codelucas/islandoverlord)
His:
[https://mojang.com/notch/ld12/breaking/BreakingTheTower.zip](https://mojang.com/notch/ld12/breaking/BreakingTheTower.zip)

I also "cloned" a well known python article extraction library (goose) on
Github with my own api & new functionality and my repo ended up doing super
well (even better than the original).

[https://github.com/codelucas/newspaper](https://github.com/codelucas/newspaper)
vs. [https://github.com/grangier/python-
goose](https://github.com/grangier/python-goose)

------
armaansarkar
I recommend reading Austin Kleon's 'Steal Like an Artist' for a more thorough
discussion: [http://amzn.com/B0074QGGK6](http://amzn.com/B0074QGGK6)

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TillE
I stole an idea for a game which has yet to be implemented by the person who
briefly mentioned it a couple years ago. It inspired me, and because the idea
was not some highly detailed plan, I know my conception of it will be
_completely_ different from that of the original idea-haver.

People talk about idea vs. implementation, but the missing component is the
vision that drives and expands that initial idea. That's obviously true in
anything related to creative work, but I think it holds true almost
everywhere, except in utterly trivial cases.

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RankingMember
Not realizing this has hamstrung my thought process quite a bit. I've killed a
lot of ideas because I felt they were too similar to others, but really,
looking back, they weren't. Everything we do is derivative, even the things we
consider original, as they're all built on a common scattershot mass of
knowledge. If we all went to make something as simple as a shampoo bottle,
we'd get a lot of different, completely unique concepts. This is worth
remembering.

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higherpurpose
The obligatory Everything is a remix series:

[http://everythingisaremix.info/watch-the-
series/](http://everythingisaremix.info/watch-the-series/)

------
bitwize
Reminds me of a quote from one of the XXIst Century's great art intellectuals:

"All art is either plagiarism or revolution." \--Shia LaBeouf

Seriously, though, when it comes to art and code I've always found a useful
policy to be "find somebody good and do what they're doing". For example, ever
since I first dug into NetBSD code I've found it written in an exemplary style
of C, which I strive to imitate myself when I work in C. I may never get it
just right, but it's made me a better C programmer than I was, or at least one
with a clearer style.

------
graeme
I've seen this work in a limited scale in my own venture. I started an lsat
prep website, [http://lsathacks.com](http://lsathacks.com)

Almost everything about the site was inspired by reference examples within the
industry. And yet the site is unique, because I have my own take on things. I
saw the principles underlying various sites, and redid them in my own style.

It's still early days, but initial results are positive. I'd have gotten
nowhere if I stubbornly insisted on only original ideas.

~~~
gridspy
Correct URL is [http://lsathacks.com/](http://lsathacks.com/)

~~~
graeme
Oops, thanks. Wrote the original on my phone, fixed it

------
shurcooL
I agree. This is why all my personal source code is open, and why I think all
the copyrights and what not potentially do the human race more of a disservice
than they help.

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prawn
When stuck in a design rut, try copying something else. Where you end up will
generally look nothing like the original. Sometimes you just need the push.

------
thenomad
Yep.

Several of my most successful films have come from explicitly attempting to
imitate someone else's style.

And I've never once had anyone accuse me of copying - indeed, I'm not sure
anyone has ever realised that I was riffing on another filmmaker without me
explaining it beforehand.

------
normloman
I fear most of you will take this advice the wrong way.

We all know that nothing's completely original. You shouldn't be reinventing
the wheel with every program you write. But follow this advice too closely and
you'll end up with a clone. A program with all the good qualities of its
predecessor, and all the flaws too.

Your clone will be competing with other clones for control of the market. And
so long as you're competing on the same turf, you'll be at a disadvantage. Big
established companies rule the market for time tested software. Their program
came out before your clone, and they've had lots of time to grow their
business. They have a bigger research budget than you, and a bigger marketing
department.

Besides, everybody already uses their product. You ever hear of network
effects?

Start with something that's been done before. But take it somewhere new. Find
an emerging market for an established technology. One the big players ignore.
Historically, that's where startups have had the advantage.

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viach
I think author should stop reading "The Chronicles of Amber" for a while :)

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31reasons
Zynga lives by this advice :)

~~~
princeb
[http://www.geek.com/games/blizzards-hearthstone-instantly-
pl...](http://www.geek.com/games/blizzards-hearthstone-instantly-plagiarized-
in-china-long-before-release-1582550/)

~~~
CmonDev
They tend to be 'perfect mirrors' though. I have heard stories about flash and
android games being de-compiled to "mirror" the code and visual/sound assets
as well. AFAIK it's called "respectful borrowing".

------
ilhank
For example see Michael Bublé.

~~~
rhizome
Buble and Zynga aren't trying to do anything new.

