
Founder Depression - RRiccio
http://blog.samaltman.com/founder-depression
======
EvanMiller
Dig deeper, Sam.

Achievement-oriented people are given to depression both when they fail and
when they succeed. If your identity is tied up in your work, then you feel bad
about yourself when work isn't going well. That's obvious, and that's the
message of this blog post. The implicit message is that you're depressed
because you're not succeeding, so get your shit together and succeed and be
happy like everyone else.

But then if you do succeed, you start to wonder, why did I just spend my youth
in this masochistic, narcissistic path, and why the fuck am I not as happy as
I was expecting, and is this really all there is in life. This is a classic
"achiever in crisis." The problem is that you realize all along you've been
doing things that OTHER people wanted -- that is, you've been doing things
that make you valuable in society -- perfect summed up in the raison d'etre du
jour, "making the world a better place." And nobody stopped you, because who
can argue with making the world a better place? (Or being a doctor, or
whatever.) But upon reflection, you quickly realize that this was in many ways
easier than asking yourself what YOU wanted out of life. I.e. you've pushed
aside your innate feelings and desires, whatever they may have been, and
replaced them with the external motivation of achievement, under the rationale
that you'd be able to "figure it out" after you had "made it".

Unfortunately achievers aren't really sure what they want "deep down" because
achievement is inherently defined by society, and then after they've "made it"
they freak out because they start to wonder if there even is a "deep down" or
if they're just a highly educated donkey chasing a carrot.

If you talk to e.g. people who've gone through rigorous Ph.D. programs, you'll
find a number of them were severely depressed after their defense. It was just
kind of a let-down after such a long buildup, and then they started to wonder
why they invested the entirety of their twenties into it and question whether
that's really what they wanted their life to be. At least before the defense
they could have something look forward to, and the various requirements
provided a source of manic energy to propel the achiever forward.

Anyway I don't think the problem here is "not enough success," and I don't
think the solution is having more coffee meetings. Founders need to take a
hard look in the mirror and ask themselves why they're doing what they're
doing and whether their depression is truly a function of their free cash flow
or if there's a deeper dissonance between the founder's feelings and the
expectations of society, i.e. the heroic mythology of the founder that Silicon
Valley has been inculcating in susceptible teenagers for the last 20 years.

Just my 2c. I am not a founder just an observer and aspiring societal
psychiatrist. If you want to learn more I highly recommend "The Wisdom of the
Enneagram":

[http://www.amazon.com/Wisdom-Enneagram-Psychological-
Spiritu...](http://www.amazon.com/Wisdom-Enneagram-Psychological-Spiritual-
Personality/dp/0553378201)

It looks a lot like astrological pseudoscientific trash but read it and see if
things in it resonate with you.

Ok back to work.

~~~
Noxchi
Everything we do in life is to feel a certain way.

Anything with a brain is driven to acquire certain feelings and move away from
others.

And all feelings have to do with the future.

That is, feelings are either

1\. a prediction of what you believe will happen in the future. For example,
happiness is the belief that something good will happen in the future.

2\. a feeling that you should feel in the future when you come across this
event again (data for #1 to work). For example, pain happens after you lose
something, and this serves as a reminder for the future, if you ever come
across this event again, don't do what you just did.

So on the topic of the post, what is depression?

Depression is the belief that you will not have good things happen to you in
the future. It comes from what you believe (in your emotional brain), not what
you think. And your beliefs come from memories (which in turn come from
experiences).

The more recent a memory / experience, the stronger it is. If you have few
experiences of good things happening in the past X timeframe, you will start
to become depressed. X varies for people, it can be 3 months or 3 years.

So what counts as a good thing or a bad thing?

It all comes from how you interpret experiences. This can be controlled
consciously, but only if you bring your emotional brain into the meeting and
communicate with it in language it understands (action and visualization).

For example, I used to be addicted to reddit. While I consciously knew it
wasn't good to be going to reddit so much, my emotional brain didn't mind. But
after discovering a process that uses these principles, I quit "cold-turkey"
by imagining a lot of bad stuff in relation to reddit. I wrote (I find writing
a good method for visualizing) about all the stuff I was missing out on
because of reddit. I wrote about how all I was doing there was arguing with a
bunch of fat sweaty no-life neckbeards, which would only lead to bad things to
me. Then after I wrote this, I went to delete my reddit account and I thought
"whoa this is serious" (you HAVE to feel this way, a.k.a. surprise. Surprise
happens when your emotional brain realizes it's past way of thinking is
invalid). I thought about it for a couple minutes, but followed through and
deleted it. After that, I never went on it for months and would be repulsed at
the idea of going there. I rarely go there now.

Anyway, about depression specifically to entrepreneurs or "goal oriented"
people. I believe the way to be happy here is to change our beliefs. The goal
shouldn't be to have success, but to do the things well that lead to success.

Let's say you want to build a wall (think of the wall as your goal). If you're
only happy if you have the wall, then you will be sad throughout the journey
until the end when the wall is easy to see finished.

Then after the wall is made, well you don't necessarily have anything good to
look forward to now (which is what happiness is), so your happiness will start
to drop.

But what if instead, our happiness wasn't dependant on whether we have a wall
or not, but rather how many bricks we laid today?

Then we could look forward to "I'm going to lay X bricks today!" and get a
much faster success feedback loop.

I'm going to try a process similar to the reddit one above to link good things
not with having the wall, but with laying the bricks.

~~~
tim333
>Everything we do in life is to feel a certain way.

I've heard that hypothesised, mostly in Tony Robbins style self help books,
but have come to the conclusion that it's an oversimplification of the human
condition. I mean if you were building a Mk2 human from scratch you might
build it that way be we did not arise that way - we evolved from reptile like
creatures which had extra stuff bolted on when they evolved to monkey like,
chimp like and finally human like beings. As a result much of what we do is as
a result of ancient mechanisms resulting in actions that do not always make us
feel good. For example you might lose you temper and hit or shout at someone
in ways you feel bad about almost straight away but it was not done to feel
good, it was done because some ancient aggression instinct got triggered.

This stuff I think complicates the whole business of dealing with depression
which like aggression often comes from the more primitive parts of the brain.
I'm not sure what the answer is. Trial and error to some extent. Also it can
be interesting to look at what makes cat, dogs and the like happy or sad as we
are probably subject to the same mechanisms.

~~~
Noxchi
To put it in a different way, everything we do is because of the feelings we
feel.

'Feeling' is a very broad term. My definition is the sum of your nervous
system's activity.

What your nervous system decides to do - and what you feel like doing, are
equal statements in my view.

That doesn't mean there's no inner conflict - there is. But if you imagine
every neuron as a voter in a democratic election, the decision that gets the
most votes is the one that you feel like doing, even though you are aware
there are private interest groups of neurons that want something else.

------
earbitscom
Am I qualified to chime in? We just shut down today after 4.5 years. ;)

This is very true, and unfortunate. It makes it easy to feel like everyone is
being successful except you. I realized this a couple years ago and, when
talking to other founders, I just stopped sugar coating things about my
situation. I would tell them about our struggles, what was going on, and its
affect on me. I don't think I've ever been brought to tears as many times as
this year. It is super painful, but lying about it is bad for all involved.
You can't get the support you need, nor provide proper support to others.

I can definitely vouch for the dark days. I feel fortunate to be an eternal
optimist who knows these things are temporary, but the startup lows are about
as low as they come. On top of that, you have things like breakups, family
emergencies and other tragedies that are already hard enough to deal with when
you are not nursing a struggling company. When those things hit at the same
time, it can feel impossible to do anything.

Seriously, as a founder, find a few people you can really confide in and do
so. And, don't be afraid to say things aren't going well. You never know what
people can do to help. On that note, though today isn't the best day for me to
cheer up others, I'm available to chat for any founder going through dark
days. joey@earbits.com

~~~
thegeomaster
> It makes it easy to feel like everyone is being successful except you.

I'd say this is hardly a case _only_ when you're a founder. Throughout life,
if you keep high expectations of yourself (which is IMHO a good thing in the
long run), you will constantly feel like people around you are succeeding, and
you're struggling. I've sometimes felt that way, but the key, for me at least,
was to learn to take it easy on myself from time to time and not to be sickly
critical of my own work.

Sometimes people feel like everyone else is succeeding and they are failing
because, well, it is _true_ to some extent observable by them. (It sounds
grim, but in reality you can mostly turn the tables if you invest enough
effort.) However, sometimes you can get that feel if you constantly observe
the people who simply set the bar lower. Psychological processes that drive us
are curious; sometimes they may make us redefine success so that we can appear
more successful to other people. But this is not a real, healthy gain: it's a
pathological one. A giant, impressive pile of counterfeit, useless money, if
you will.

Just my two cents. I'm most likely talking out of my ass :)

By the way, kudos to you and everyone else for being a founder. It sounds like
both a great struggle and a fun journey, and everyone with the courage (or the
madness!) to go down that path has my deepest respect.

------
pbiggar
> You’ll also be surprised how much you find other founders are willing to
> listen.

This is super important. Non-founders often will not get it, in my experience.
If you haven't started a company, you often will not have experienced the
intense ups and downs, and just how fucked everything can be, even when you
pour your life and soul into it, and that there really can be a light on the
other side of the tunnel.

One brief tip: it is OK to give up your startup - don't feel that you can't.

If you're in a dark place, do take up the kind offers that people are making
in this thread. (I'm paul@circleci.com if you want to chat, and I've publicly
fucked up one startup, so I understand.)

~~~
npizzolato
>Non-founders often will not get it, in my experience.

This is the kind of self important nonsense I would expect from a high
schooler. Sorry, but starting a company is not the only way to feel intense
ups and downs, or to put your heart into something only to be disappointed.
Maybe thinking that you're problems are completely unique is contributing to
the problem. There are lots of other people with their own problems who are
either able to relate or at least empathize.

~~~
acgourley
They won't get the particular contexts and situations. To have this
conversation with a non-founder you'll be explaining a lot of jargon,
background and cause-effect relationships.

------
njloof
My first thought on reading this: "Great, but who _shouldn 't_ I talk to?"

I've known founders whose VCs took their "down" moments as weakness. They
"helped" them dilute to pave the way for future takeover. They exploited
founders' weakness and talked about them behind their backs. Who can you
really trust when you _and_ your company are at their weakest?

~~~
gsibble
Thanks for bringing this up. Even worse is trying to raise a round of funding
when you can barely raise yourself out of bed in the morning. VC/Investors are
probably the last people I would ever talk to about the low feelings during
dark startup days.

------
robg
The latest brain research is showing two powerful trends worth talking about
in any conversation among friends and advisers:

1) The key role of sleep appears to be flushing toxins from the brain:
[http://news.sciencemag.org/brain-behavior/2013/10/sleep-
ulti...](http://news.sciencemag.org/brain-behavior/2013/10/sleep-ultimate-
brainwasher)

2) Sleep disorders appear to precede mental health concerns, including anxiety
and depression: [http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/30/health/conditions/sleep-
apnea-...](http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/30/health/conditions/sleep-apnea-
depression/) [http://www.adaa.org/understanding-anxiety/related-
illnesses/...](http://www.adaa.org/understanding-anxiety/related-
illnesses/sleep-disorders)

Your brain is your performance and health computer. Please remember to take
care of it.

------
tossmeaway
Father died in final year of college. Only child moved home to mourning
mother(of course!) Went on huge sarge to find a women. Did side work, but
focused on 2nd startup(1st one in back of my mind to reboot.) Failed. Arrogant
and never found a full time job. Was in love and my girl needed to marry to
stay in country. She was fine I thought while i went after my dreams. Finally
found my 3rd idea and was working on skills. Eventually wife lost faith and
cheated(multiple times and not just sex on one, successful man.) Found out,
blew my retirement(roth) I made working when I was younger on booze. Lost
faith in myself, saw no point in my great idea, mother attacks, no real man to
fend off. Sleep in a truck, brain so fried from settling divorce and lack of
self confidence or a dime. Idea still viable, even after all this time, timing
might be right. "If you are going through hell, keep going."

~~~
tossmeaway
Why was I down voted for my open heart experiences for those who are
struggling with their dreams?

~~~
logicallee
I didn't downvote you, but it doesn't read very coherently. Maybe give more
information.

~~~
tossmeaway
I apologize for the mind dump. It all has been very painful so I stuck to
succinct sentences. What more do you request?

------
mclenithan
I worked up the restaurant industry, opened my first restaurant in 2007.
Second in 2009. In 2009 I was 24.

Leased the first location, bought the second for about $2 mil, ($100k down)...
Economy took a crap, road work, city restrictions, f __king Denny 's decided
to open right next to my first location. I closed in 2010. Sole-Proprietor.
Combine taxes, bills, loans, etc.. I was looking at around 1.5 mil in debt. I
had $400 about at the time. The newspaper had me front page for closing,
social media blew up, everyone wants to know wtf happened.

I made ALOT of mistakes, not saying I am a complete victim but it hurts...
REAL bad. So I ran and hid. Couldn't own a bank account, had to move. All
those "friends" ain't friends we you are in the gutter. Worked random jobs
just to eat and pay rent on a shared room in a new town. Decided to code
because it looked better than my bartending/sales jobs.

Learned code and now in the industry. Its fun to hear people get VC help, a
co-founder, community support, nothing really on the line but other peoples
money and time. Not saying that it's everyone or even the OP, but things could
be sooooo much harder when falling from grace. When you get on your knees in
front of all your staff and beg the power company rep not to shut off the
lights, you are pretty close to that wonderful feeling. "Run it till the
wheels fall off.."

------
coffeemug
I've been to some really dark places and back. If anyone needs to talk, shoot
me an e-mail -- slava@rethinkdb.com. I'll buy you coffee, listen, and try to
help you find a better place.

~~~
bryanh
I will attest that Slava is not only wicked smart, but a great person to just
talk with.

------
kyro
Can someone provide insight on life after a failed startup, in terms of career
prospects? Often depression can make you feel as if you're failing on all
fronts, that nothing will get better in the foreseeable future. Most of the
time that really isn't true. You're often stuck in a temporary rut that your
mind drastically exaggerates. But for a founder who's going through a dark
time and whose startup ultimately fails, is it easy to pick yourself up again?
Can you realistically transition into a more stable job where you'll have more
energy to improve your life? I've heard from quite a few that the years spent
on a failed startup do not improve your career options, and for a founder that
may find themselves depressed running a company, I can't imagine such poor
prospects lending any hope.

~~~
balls187
I think the best way to do well after failure is to be intellectually honest
with yourself.

Polonius said it best "To thine own self be true."

As an engineer, in Seattle and the Bay Area, you will always have access to
jobs.

For non-technical founders, you will have had gained valuable experience that
will make you significantly more attractive.

You often have to wear multiple hats, manage your time, focus on what matters,
and you gain a lot of experience in finance, shipping product, dealing with
investors, dealing with customers, all of which is harder to get if you have a
specific role at a larger organization.

Now, there are startups, and there are startups. If you quit your job and
tinker at something for a few months to a few years and never really do
anything to show for it (ship an MVP, hire an employee or two, raise or
attempt to raise money), then, I imagine you didn't really learn anything, but
if you were able to do those things, you will have gained real world
applicable experience.

Being a founder, was the 2nd best thing that I could have ever done to my
career.

My start-up didn't fail, but I ended up leaving because I was slowing it down.

My role now is basically a founder working for a late stage organization. I
use lean methodology and entrepreneurship thinking to build new services to
explore untapped market opportunities. Instead of raising funding with
investors, my company will fund the growth of the service into a full fledged
business unit.

~~~
morganf
(You know, Polonius was meant as a figure of mockery, so I'm not sure it makes
sense to go around quoting his ironic sayings....!)

------
logicallee
You can't afford to follow this advice. Saying you're crushing it is part of
your 24/7 job description.

There is a story of the founder who had just put a round together with a VC.
Then, privately, the founder confided to a mutual friend, over dinner, about
some of the difficulties. Result? The friend told the VC, the VC pulled out,
and cited this conversation, saying that it was because his mutual friend said
the company was having difficulties.

You can't afford to talk.

~~~
edmack
Bullshit. Your advice could literally kill people.

There are always many many people you can and should talk to in confidence.
Many examples have offered their email addresses above.

~~~
morgante
That's why you talk to a therapist who is legally bound to protect your
doubts.

------
hkmurakami
While the situation is most acute for founders, I feel that the general
situation is true for most if not all professionals with strong aspirations.

You can't show weakness in public (web) for fear that a potential employer
will flag you. You can't express your lament to many coworkers since it can
come back to bite you.

Non-founders generally aren't subjected to the kind of lows that founders are,
and have more room for camaraderie and confidants. But no matter who we are,
it seems that were need to put on an air of invulnerability, and this bothers
me immensely.

(And in general, I play the game as well)

------
shantanubala
If anyone feels like they need someone to talk to, send me an email (in my
profile).

If you're in San Francisco, we can also get coffee.

~~~
bryanh
Same here! Email in profile, in the Mountain View area for coffee/beers.

~~~
feadog
Anyone in the East Bay?

~~~
Vekz
I'm in Oakland with the same offer

~~~
zemvpferreira
I'm in Oakland too and have some experience with the ups and downs (and downs,
and downs) of starting a company. If anyone could use a sympathetic ear, I'd
like to help.

~~~
lisper
+1. I'm about to go oh for five so I definitely know how it goes. Maybe we
should start a support group.

------
gregorymichael
I'm a developer with bipolar disorder. I gave a about it last year at Business
of Software called _Developers, Entrepreneurs and Depression_ that some
founders have found useful:

[http://businessofsoftware.org/2013/11/developers-
entrepreneu...](http://businessofsoftware.org/2013/11/developers-
entrepreneurs-depression-a-wonderful-talk-at-business-of-software-conference/)

~~~
comrh
Same diagnosis. I struggle so much with wanting to help others and wanting not
to tell anyone. Wanting to talk to my bosses so they can understand and
wanting my privacy. Wanting not to use it as an excuse, or get special
treatment but then being so angry when they don't get it (how could they?).

Also struggling with starting something and the need to finish it the same
night. That one hit hard. The anxiety while I work on something only goes away
when I finish, so longer projects are impossible. To avoid the pain I just
stop trying to work on them.

I'm trying to get better with medication and a doctor and it is certainly
better than constantly thinking about suicide but I worry that I'm never going
to be productive.

Thanks for so much for your talk. And having the courage to put such a big
part of yourself out there to help others.

------
trevmckendrick
It will go a long way to have more people like Sam say "it's okay to talk."

It's not like people have to open their souls on their blogs.

But when high profile individuals like Sam "proclaim" that it's okay to talk
about this, somehow it feels a lot safer to open up to people in person.

Especially if they're in a similar situation.

------
mrev19
Try dedicating your life to music its freakin brutal. Write some songs and go
sing em in a public forum, thats some serious vulnerability. Not saying its
tougher than being a founder, but no way the opposite is true. Anyway my point
is that these days many people who are attracted to being founders tend to be
shocked by the costs because they don't have the natural temperament to
sharply veer from the path of established norms. Many don't believe in
something greater than themselves or money which would allow them to suffer
the pain as a cost of doing business. This is a given in the arts. Its like
the marines, pain is part of the practice.

------
holri
Greek philosopher Epiktet has the solution. From
[http://classics.mit.edu/Epictetus/epicench.html](http://classics.mit.edu/Epictetus/epicench.html):

The Enchiridion

By Epictetus

Written 135 A.C.E.

Translated by Elizabeth Carter

1\. Some things are in our control and others not. Things in our control are
opinion, pursuit, desire, aversion, and, in a word, whatever are our own
actions. Things not in our control are body, property, reputation, command,
and, in one word, whatever are not our own actions.

The things in our control are by nature free, unrestrained, unhindered; but
those not in our control are weak, slavish, restrained, belonging to others.
Remember, then, that if you suppose that things which are slavish by nature
are also free, and that what belongs to others is your own, then you will be
hindered. You will lament, you will be disturbed, and you will find fault both
with gods and men. But if you suppose that only to be your own which is your
own, and what belongs to others such as it really is, then no one will ever
compel you or restrain you. Further, you will find fault with no one or accuse
no one. You will do nothing against your will. No one will hurt you, you will
have no enemies, and you not be harmed.

Aiming therefore at such great things, remember that you must not allow
yourself to be carried, even with a slight tendency, towards the attainment of
lesser things. Instead, you must entirely quit some things and for the present
postpone the rest. But if you would both have these great things, along with
power and riches, then you will not gain even the latter, because you aim at
the former too: but you will absolutely fail of the former, by which alone
happiness and freedom are achieved.

Work, therefore to be able to say to every harsh appearance, "You are but an
appearance, and not absolutely the thing you appear to be." And then examine
it by those rules which you have, and first, and chiefly, by this: whether it
concerns the things which are in our own control, or those which are not; and,
if it concerns anything not in our control, be prepared to say that it is
nothing to you.

[...]

------
georgewfraser
Another good resource is the classic "Feeling Good" [1], which describes basic
cognitive behavioral therapy in a self-help format. It's old but good and has
been validated in clinical trials.

[1]
[http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0380810336?pc_redir=1402628516...](http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0380810336?pc_redir=1402628516&robot_redir=1)

~~~
eatitraw
I second, "Feeling Good" is great.

BTW, there is another book by the same author(David Burns) -- "When Panic
Attacks" [1]. It is focused on anxiety, not depression, but these two
conditions often go hand in hand.

[1] [http://amzn.com/076792083X](http://amzn.com/076792083X)

------
wting
> If you ask a founder how her startup is going, the answer is almost always
> some version of “Great!”

This is not founder-specific but a fairly typical American greeting. "How's it
going?" "Pretty good, you?" "Not too bad, how 'bout the weather / sports
team?"

By comparison, the next time someone initiates the standard greeting try
responding with something out of the ordinary. "I'm having a difficult time
with foo" or "My wife and I just did this". Breaking the pattern will result
in a lot more meaningful conversations.

~~~
nlh
I think there's two different things going on here. What you talk about is
very much real -- the standard "how's it going?" or "how are you?" American
question/response ("Good! You?"). Answering that sort of question in the way
you suggest is a fairly non-American thing.

But I think there is also a more specific founder/startup conversation that
Sam refers to -- that's more like this:

Q: "Hey, how are you?"

A: "Good! You?"

Q: "I'm good. So how are things with the company? How are you guys doing?"

That's where the typical "Oh we're killing it!" is coming in and where it
might be nice for some to be a bit more honest. "We're trying. It's a
struggle." You can also learn a lot about the person you're talking to by
seeing how they respond to this. The good ones are the ones who respond with
empathy and who want to listen.

------
mindcrime
I can definitely relate to this. There are definitely times when it's hard to
talk to anybody... and I don't know about you guys, but with some topics I
actually find it harder to talk to someone I know, than, say, a random
stranger at a bar. Luckily I have at least one or two friends, who, for
whatever reason, I can talk to about "founder depression" issues more easily
than other people. Strangely enough, it's not even that they're my _closer_
friends, they're just people where the nature of the relationship feels
"different" in some subtle way.

I also find that being more frank, than is probably expected, on forums like
this is somewhat cathartic. If you were to dig through my old posts (don't
waste your time, it's not actually _that_ interesting) you'll find my
admitting to suicidal ideation, and talking openly about how I think I'd off
myself in the "doomsday" scenario. I hope it never comes to that, and I doubt
it will, but something about this almost pseudonymous forum leaves me feeling
more comfortable about saying certain things. This is true even though my
"real life" identity is clearly spelled out in my profile and is trivially
easy to find. _shrug_

Anyway, I'm no mental health expert, but if anybody just needs a friendly ear
to listen to them vent, feel free to give me a shout. If you're in the RTP, NC
area, I'm happy to meet for coffee/food/drinks or whatever. Email and contact
info in profile.

~~~
Noxchi
>I can definitely relate to this. There are definitely times when it's hard to
talk to anybody... and I don't know about you guys, but with some topics I
actually find it harder to talk to someone I know, than, say, a random
stranger at a bar. Luckily I have at least one or two friends, who, for
whatever reason, I can talk to about "founder depression" issues more easily
than other people. Strangely enough, it's not even that they're my closer
friends, they're just people where the nature of the relationship feels
"different" in some subtle way

That's because you're trying to maintain / live up to a reputation you've set
to people close to you.

You believe that if you admit fault, they will love you / want you less.

Where if you talk to people that aren't close, you have no reputation to
maintain and their love doesn't mean as much.

------
ibisum
On the flipside of this is the fact that, as a founder, you are a clear target
for subconscious repression by _everyone_ , thanks to the tall poppy syndrome.
So, many times, discussing the issues and problems with others is precisely
what you _shouldn 't_ do, because you will trigger the syndrome.

Its very important, thus, to have established trust with your support network
_before_ you go into the founder seat. If you don't have a support network
that consciously navigates around such things as TPS and mobbing-mentality,
then you're going to be in for a hard time. The fact of the matter is that
humans are subconsciously hard-wired to dissent against organizational
structures requiring hard work and honest production, and a founder getting up
there on the hill and attempting to work hard and produce new things needs to
understand that the most difficult thing about organizing humans, is humans.

Disclaimer: founder who just went through all of the above, and still working
hard to survive in spite of it all.

------
5943d536-f360
I wanted to chime in here to whine about my founder problems (loneliness,
destruction of personal relationships, total chaos in one's life, no time for
oneself etc) and I realized that I can't even anonymously talk about this
without feeling like a spoiled entitled brat. I feel that no matter how much I
lose to this absurd path I've forced myself into, I still have no right to
complain about it, otherwise I'm obviously not "founder material".

I think to myself "Well, I've certainly turned my life into a clusterfuck, but
at least I'm not like some of these guys who went bankrupt, couldn't afford
medical for their children or who died from overworking. Can't really
complain, right?"

I guess I find it very hard to whine about my struggles and all the fuck-ups
when it's self-imposed martyrdom. Nobody asked me to quit my cushy 6 figures 9
to 5. I was miserable at it, but doesn't mean I needed to do a startup
instead.

------
arnonejoe
Dear Sam,

It's interesting to hear you speak about founder depression as you sit on top
of the world.

Our team, openhospital.com, interviewed at YCombinator 6 weeks ago for the
current batch and we failed (rejection email below). The $1100 interview
reimbursement we received from YC only covered 1/3 of the cost of the trip and
the time/energy spent applying could have been time and money spent coding and
developing our product (and paying rent).

In the last 7 months I've managed to burn through my 401k from years software
engineering jobs in pursuit building a cash medicine marketplace. I barely
have enough money to pay my rent next month. In a desperate attempt to find
capital, I also charged a trip to San Jose on my credit card 2 weeks ago to
knock on doors up and down Sand Hill Road.

If you or anyone on this forum is interested in starting a cash medicine
marketplace there is an opportunity to change the world and this needs to be
done. Ironically my wife has horrible stomach problems and I spent two hours
calling GI/colonoscopy doctors trying to find a cash price as I will be
charging this on my credit cards as well.

I am desperate to start this and I don't care if I end up with 1/10000th of
founder ownership at the end. We have a working provider site with several
providers (18k lines of code). The other engineer on my team is smart
(Stanford educated) and an awesome co-founder to work with.

Am I depressed? Yes. Am I giving up? Never.

My contact info is joe (at) openhospital.com if you Sam or anyone on this
forum would like to chat.

Joe Arnone Founder OpenHospital.com

[https://www.dropbox.com/s/d0jz58wmd8ynsup/Photo%20Apr%2026%2...](https://www.dropbox.com/s/d0jz58wmd8ynsup/Photo%20Apr%2026%2C%206%2002%2038%20PM.png)

~~~
dkural
You might have more success if you explain your business model a bit better.
What pain point are you addressing? Who's the customer? How big is the market?
How do you plan to introduce your innovation and induce behavior change in the
current marketplace and insert yourself into the transaction? etc..

------
mikeleeorg
When I first became a manager at a large corporation, I often felt stressed
out and alone. So a year into it, I created an informal "support group" of
other new managers. We'd trade stories, tips, and beers.

This was nowhere near the pressure of founding a company, but I took that
experience and created an informal support group of founders amongst my
colleagues too. It didn't last unfortunately, but I later got into an
accelerator and found the same support group.

No matter what the cause of your stress or depression, having a good support
system is extremely helpful. It ranges from Mommy/Daddy groups to AA to even a
single good friend.

Unfortunately for many people, it's very difficult to find and/or build a
support system.

P.S. I vaguely recall seeing an organization (maybe a startup) listed on HN
that basically helped people find someone to talk to. Anyone remember the
name?

~~~
_sentient
I believe [http://7cupsoftea.com](http://7cupsoftea.com) may be what you're
looking for.

------
paul9290
As they say start ups are a roller coaster ride.

All the lows are worth it for the highs, because the alternative is working n
wasting ur life away at a desk job. Which after experiencing many highs
sitting at that desk makes you hate it and for me I only keep jobs for a year
because of my incessant need to start up. Needless to say I don't lead the
normal societal life as I have sacrificed such for my startups/dreams.

But oh the lows(depression) and instability... Like today because of my
startup addiction it's time to find a new desk job.

This stuff is crazy HARD, but I can't stop!

------
digita88
For founders, it is a good idea to scope which socio-economic-environmental
factors would contribute to their dissonance or depression. For me it's the
lack of face-to-face contact, being an 'outlier' in so many respects, being in
an environment that is not as innovative or open to entrepreneurs and so on.
The list is not that encouraging but as long as the factors are known at least
they are 'known'. Also these factors can easily contribute to freelancers,
independent workers, etc.

The next item to know is that there are factors that would actively contribute
to depression. I used to have some really bad habits that would otherwise feed
into some sort of circle of depression and these would pop up when I am
triggered. These habits formed because of thought patterns that I have
somewhat developed growing up. Whenever I feel the triggers, I need to make
sure that I don't engage in any of these bad habits or that if I do, I need to
try and get out of that zone.

I've had my first episode when I was really young - culminated in a few
sessions with a psychologist at school - so I've had this affliction for a
while now. On top of that, I've been entrepreneurial since I was young so I
think that the external 'being a founder' is hard to separate from the
biology.

It's a bit of a circle for me - I get in founder phases and then when the
business or idea fizzles out or when I need the cash, I get into employee
phase which then culminates in me wanting to get my feet back into the
entrepreneur game... and so on and so forth. At the moment I'm in that founder
phase and have made commitments and arrangements so that I don't get back into
being an employee for at least January 2015.

------
zeeshanm
Lots of interesting comments here. I'll put some thoughts here, too... I have
always thought there are two kinds of people in this world. One who do things
that make other people's life better. Others who reap benefits of things done
by the former group. To me the question is about whether you want to be
selfless in the service of others or live a steady life. Once you have figured
out, there is no shame in failing if your goals are high and intentions are
right. If you base your success based on how people perceive you that is a
very wrong way to think. The only reason because public opinion tends to
change very so often. So, for me at least, being successful implies reaching
for a bigger goal than the self. Being principled and finding happiness in
doing the right thing. Just imagine if Nelson Mandela, Gandhi, Dr King, etc
would have only thought for themselves what kind of a messed up world we all
would have been living in? With greater goals come even greater challenges in
some shape or form of "failures." "If There Is No Struggle, There Is No
Progress”

~~~
gfodor
Feeling the need to constantly be trying to improve the world and help others
is a noble concept but also one that, if focused on too intensely, can
unintentionally lead you down a dark path. By setting unrealistic expectations
for yourself you can often set yourself up for failure by reaching too far too
early. It also puts a heavy burden on your shoulders of being your own worst
critic, undermining your motivation and clashing with your basic human desires
that fall out of natural selfishness. As PG said in "Good and Bad
Procrastination":

"You can't look a big problem too directly in the eye. You have to approach it
somewhat obliquely. But you have to adjust the angle just right: you have to
be facing the big problem directly enough that you catch some of the
excitement radiating from it, but not so much that it paralyzes you. You can
tighten the angle once you get going, just as a sailboat can sail closer to
the wind once it gets underway."

I think the effects of trying to tackle big problems in the name of helping
others head on can go beyond paralysis and into poor judgement in both
strategy and tactics. The best way to change the world in my view is to first,
know thyself, and then point yourself in the general direction you want to go.

From there, let your passions lead you where they may but be conscious if you
are straying too far from the direction you were headed. Also, it seems more
important to know if you've certainly begun heading in the wrong direction
than knowing what exactly the right direction was from the outset.

------
peachngrapes
At the beginning most founders getting some kind of depression but the better
founders quickly adapt to the situation and answer 'some version of great'
when asked how their startup is going.

The reason is quite simple -- successful founders are always positive because
every event which happens has some positive impact in their perception, even
if it might feel as a failure. Successful founders don't use the word failure,
nothing is a failure to them.

People who are depressed -- it doesn't matter if those are founders or not --
tend to let external circumstances determine the mood or happyness level. Most
people are happy when it's good weather and sad if it is raining, successful
people do not let something like rain influence their mood level.

The question is rather why the topic 'depression' pops up quite often on HN.

My theory: I had very successful times as a founder and also -- let's call
them -- 'slow' times as a founder, in particular in the beginning. When I had
successful times I didn't check HN for months a single time, when I had 'slow'
times, I checked HN every 30 minutes.

-

------
taylorhou
for the significant others of founders -
[http://lifeofastartupgf.com](http://lifeofastartupgf.com) \- being in a
relationship with a founder is tough and sometimes, extremely stressful.

~~~
eli
I guess it's the thought that counts, but that's not a resource with a lot of
depth.

My wife keeps saying she should organize a Startup Wives reality show, but I
think we'd have to manufacture a lot of the drama.

~~~
satishmreddy
[http://www.amazon.com/Startup-Life-Surviving-Relationship-
En...](http://www.amazon.com/Startup-Life-Surviving-Relationship-
Entrepreneur/dp/1480563862)

Book written by Brad Feld and Amy (his spouse)

------
joshdance
Feel like I should offer this as well. If anyone feels like they need someone
to talk to, send me an email (in my profile).

If you are in Utah, we can grab food.

~~~
daveslash
That's very kind of you. I used to live in Utah, and still have many
connections there. If you don't mind, I'll drop your name if any friends there
could benefit from a quick chat with a real person. I'm in San Diego and the
reverse offer stands.

~~~
joshdance
For sure!

------
yslhall
I wish I could explain what I'm going through right now, as a founder, but I
legally can't. The few people that know what I'm going through have said it's
the hardest situation they've heard a startup founder in, ever. I hope to one
day tell my story.

Let's just say, it involves dealing with somebody that developed severe mental
illness, quickly.

~~~
danelectro
start writing your story down now, and then reveal it later when appropriate

------
stefek99
Recommended talk: [http://businessofsoftware.org/2013/11/developers-
entrepreneu...](http://businessofsoftware.org/2013/11/developers-
entrepreneurs-depression-a-wonderful-talk-at-business-of-software-conference/)

Seek specialist advice.

I personally try to limit success stories and get back to work :)

------
wellboy
You might also checkout
[http://www.startupsanonymo.us/](http://www.startupsanonymo.us/). Two great
guys, also founders who have been there and who just listen, for free and
offer some feedback.

Great project, way too little exposure for them though.

------
Sakes
For me, startup depression was just something to get familiar with. I've been
working on mine for about 3 years now, bootstrapped... on the weekends...
making no money.... while supporting a family... being an involved father...
but fuck it, I still believe in it and will continue working on it until I
believe that the opportunity has passed.

The first two years consisted of my mind bouncing back and forth between
dreams and depression. Now I've matured, at least emotionally, to where I feel
emotionally invincible. I guess I just got used to it, the uncertainty, the
hopes, the fears. This has become my norm, and living with it is much easier
and honestly pretty effortless at this point.

------
yaelwrites
Glad to see this being discussed.

Relevant: [http://www.inc.com/magazine/201309/jessica-
bruder/psychologi...](http://www.inc.com/magazine/201309/jessica-
bruder/psychological-price-of-entrepreneurship.html)

------
gautambay
I've found it super helpful to surround myself by other entrepreneurs (they
"get it" more easily). With the best ones, we can both speak with our guards
down, and be open about our vulnerabilities.

I don't have data on this, but I actually believe you increase your odds of
success by being open about your insecurities. Among other things, it helps
you form connections that are more human.

If anyone in SF would like to talk through stuff, my email is in my profile.
I've seen my share of lows, and been helped by other entrepreneurs. Would like
to pass it forward.

------
lifeisstillgood
I listened to a surprising podcast from John Lloyd (UK comedy producer deity
(Spitting Image, BlackAdder etc))

He talked about his breakdown, about how he was fired from ten or so jobs and
slowly came to a realisation that I think is worth repeating - that you can
accept your life is yours, if possible live "with no fear and no blame"

I certainly don't suggest his approach is perfect but I is interesting to see
someone widely successful and respected talking about the same fears and
depression pervasive within us.

Look for Seun Hughes / John Lloyd on iTunes

------
derwiki
When I went solo-fulltime on my startup, I started a Mailchimp newsletter and
asked all my friends who I thought cared about the startup to join (I'm just
shy of 100 subscribers now). It's been incredibly useful for battling
loneliness; every few weeks I talk about a success, a failure, or maybe just
something random. It's helped make the whole process less isolating; I always
get personal replies after I send one.

------
lsh123
Just remember that the failure of your startup/project does not mean that you
are a failure. In the last years you most likely "merged" yourself with your
startup, you need to keep reminding yourself that your are _more_ than it. You
have friends, family, other ideas. You always can try again. And yes, would be
happy to have coffee/lunch/whatever to chat (I am in the Bay Area).

------
daveslash
In San Diego. Like Utah poster, let me know if you'd like to grab food. I
haven't been a _founder_ until recently, but I've worked _as an employee_ at
three previous startups. I'm familiar with some of the feelings and would love
to share my experiences if it helps others. Let me know - my twitter handle is
on my HN profile.

------
raminassemi
I thought this was a really good talk (and associated thread with it)
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4357037](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4357037)
on entrepreneurial depression and happiness.

------
salman89
I don't think it is as simple as learning that you can talk about it - you
have to learn who to talk about it too. Not everyone wants to hear that things
are not working quite as planned - most people would rather just hear "Great!"

------
zoba
The app Secret seems to be a big vent for this feeling. I regularly see people
posting about their own companies and feeling overwhelmed. The replies are
always supportive and typically several are along the lines of being in the
same boat.

~~~
collinjackson
Beware of trolls, though. Secret isn't immune from the Greater Internet
Fuckwad Theory

------
aosmith
Maybe I'm crazy but I'm a solo founder (I have a great support system of other
founders) and I rarely find myself depressed. At times I'm angry at myself for
decisions I've made but hindsight is 20:20.

------
XERQ
I'm in Orange County running two startups with plenty of ups and downs. If
you're in the area and want to grab a coffee and talk, my contact details are
in my profile.

------
wjessup
This is also a good way to filter out who is actually your friend or who is
hanging with you because "you're killing it."

~~~
cgriswald
No. It's not good for that at all. Depression is a monster. It eats
relationships for breakfast. Friends who have not had depression will not
understand it. There will be almost nothing they can do to help, but they'll
want to help and find it a very frustrating experience. In the long run, those
relationships will be very difficult to maintain.

Hyperbole and a Half has what I think is the best "layman" explanation for
what depression is really like:
[http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2011/10/adventures-
in-...](http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2011/10/adventures-in-
depression.html)

------
krantiveer
Doing what you love is the key to happiness. This may not make you a
billionaire but will certainly make you very happy. There is just too much
pressure in wanting to be a billion dollar startup. If you take a VC's money
as a means to your happiness, you will end up working for the VC's happiness
and not yours.

------
Patrick_Devine
I usually tell people it's "peaks and valleys". The peaks are really, really
high, and the valleys are really, really low. But that's the whole point,
isn't it? It's the ride that makes everything worth it.

------
hello_some
Maybe you just need a more engaging project?

------
dennisgorelik
Happy people are less likely to start risky ventures.

~~~
crimsonalucard
True

------
jonathanehrlich
amen. Glad you put this out there.

------
sinak
Great post. I wonder whether organizations like YC might consider offering
compensation for seeing a therapist during and after their batch, and even
perhaps going as far as recommending a particular local therapist.

I've experienced depression while running a startup, and seeing a therapist
was immensely helpful. A therapist who regularly sees founders as clients
would have a stronger-than-usual feedback loop on what sorts of advice and
recommendations can help.

Edit: While I think the advice of talking to other founders about depression
is really excellent for those who have that option, I think back to when I've
experienced depression and wonder whether it would have helped. Specifically
I'm not sure I was even in a state to be able to act upon that advice.
Generally my sense of self-worth was so deflated that it was very difficult to
discuss it with anyone, and particularly anyone who I wasn't close friends
with. Beyond my co-founders, few of my close friends were entrepreneurs.

~~~
hippich
wtf is that? yes, depression is bad, but YC should compensate treatment?
Entrepreneurship is hard, everyone says that. So you should either expect to
deal with consequences or not even get started. What kinda entrepreneur will
graduate from YC if they have to be kinder-gardened?

~~~
paulannesley
“Might consider” vs “should”. There's insane cash and bullshit perks flying
around the industry, why not something that genuinely helps the people behind
the business, and likely the business itself.

~~~
hippich
As a hidden/unofficial perk - may be I would agree. But I doubt they would
want attract candidate with that kind of perk (I wouldn't.)

------
mkempe
If you need help with depression and would rather try to figure it out
yourself, consider Julian Simon's "Good Mood: The New Psychology of Overcoming
Depression". Some of it didn't make sense to me, but I know much of it has
helped me and a few depressed friends.

[1]
[http://www.juliansimon.com/writings/Good_Mood/](http://www.juliansimon.com/writings/Good_Mood/)

