
The Idle Army: America’s Unworking Men - randomname2
http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-idle-army-americas-unworking-men-1472769641
======
fengb
Stay-at-home dads explains 2 million of this article's main statistic. So even
if the remaining 5 million of the "needs work", the employment number is
closer to 89%.

Edit: there's a reason economists usually use "looking for work" for
unemployment numbers: it's really hard to gauge why people don't look for
work.

~~~
prostoalex
Stay-at-home by choice and stay-at-home due to inability to find gainful
employment are very different demographics, though.

[http://www.npr.org/2014/06/05/319214546/stay-at-home-dads-
on...](http://www.npr.org/2014/06/05/319214546/stay-at-home-dads-on-the-rise-
and-many-of-them-are-poor)

------
hellogoodbyeeee
This is something that I'm worried about. I'm three years out of college and
in my (very small) group of friends, two of us have full time ccorporate
(middle class) jobs, one is starting his second masters degree, one is a part
time personal trainer, and one is doing seasonal work at a farm. All of them
have college degrees and all of them express interest in entrepreneurship and
start-up culture. I think there is a problem with these guys (and myself) of
being content with a bottom of the ladder corporate job. We all feel like we
should be having more of an impact on our world and our jobs. I can't decide
if this is a misplaced feeling of entitlement or a legitimate want of a "good"
job that provides professional satisfaction.

~~~
mattmanser
I remember leaving uni in 2003, for 3-5 years everyone had shitty jobs, bottom
of the ladder and then it suddenly just changed.

The first few years of work young people are usually a complete mixed bag,
even if gifted. They need quite a lot of baby-sitting, tolerance and guidance
from co-workers and bosses and make silly mistakes and usually are quite poor
at communicating.

It's all part of growing up. I can look back and realise that in myself back
then.

And then it changes and you start getting promotions and then it's all
different.

So don't judge anything by where you all are now, give it another 2 or 3
years. I know it sounds trite and patronizing, but it's true.

It's one of the reasons I'm always surprised pg, Thiel, etc. pushed for people
to start companies straight out of college or even while in college. Young
people are often so utterly clueless that I think a lot of the mistakes they
make could just be fixed by them working for someone else for a little bit,
even 6 months. As well solving the tendency for hip young entrepreneurs to
make incredibly basic HR mistakes.

------
jschwartzi
Is it truly a flight from work? I think most of those men would work jobs if
they A) existed and B) paid better than disability.

~~~
prostoalex
> They tend to be: 1) less educated;

Unless they luck out and find themselves amidst a housing bubble circa 2006
where everyone and their brother is employed in constructing real estate,
investing in real estateo, transacting in real estate on commission basis,
underwriting mortgages for real estate or pitching dubious mortgages for
others to buy real estate, there's not a lot of opportunities for under-
educated males nowadays.

------
parennoob
Note that the article has the word "women" in it only twice (and in an
inconsequential sentence); and the word "female" 0 times.

Discussing the unemployment levels of men in America without taking into
account the vast sociological changes involving the genders in the last 20-30
years e.g. a lot more women in the workforce, societal expectations of more
parenting involvement from men, etc.) is not much use unless you are trying on
some sort of strange shaming tactic on men. FWIW I don't think the author is
doing this intentionally.

------
googletazer
Vast majority of these "unworking men" are employed in the underground
economy, working under the table, which provides a subsistence living. Perhaps
only 10% are true NEETs with recognized disabilities/parents wealthy enough to
carry them.

I don't see it as a good or a bad thing - society has reorganized itself and
there is no place for these people anymore. With greater and greater levels of
automation the problem is only going to get worse. 30% of people find it hard
to do math beyond 8th grade, where would they fit in the modern economy?
Furthermore if you start from the very bottom, some people will struggle and
succeed, but most will give up - whats the point anyway? Living a minimalist
lifestyle supporting your own limited needs beats working for Amazon and
keeling over at 35 with a heart attack.

Seems as if success and fulfillment in modern society is on the edges of the
distribution - either you're a minimalistic bum or balls to the wall
businessman.

------
amyjess
I'm really disappointed that the author didn't even try to analyze why these
people weren't working and instead just went into a rant about how they're
destroying society by living lives of pure pleasure.

How many are stay-at-home dads? How many are living with wealthy parents vs.
how many are on welfare? How many of them were looking for work but eventually
gave up after their efforts proved fruitless? How many of them have actual,
legitimate disabilities?

These are all interesting questions. And for actual disabilities, I don't
think living with cystic fibrosis and being unable to work is the life of
pleasure the author thinks it is.

------
larkinbrown
The recent employment report was dubbed solid by many economists. 94,391,000
Americans not in the workforce is not good no matter how you try to slice or
spin it !

------
speeder
I have the impression the article got the cause and effect ordering confused.

It states for example on one paragraph, that the men not working, exacerbate
family breakdown.

As someone in my 28s having lots of problems like in the article, I can
personally claim, that for me, and all my friends, it is the other way around:

Creating a family in the current society, is almost impossible, two incomes is
necessary, thus reducing time available to take care of kids, divorce is too
easy, making it too risky for men (in my country, 72% of "no-fault" divorces
were initiated by women for example), young women are not interested in
serious relationships (instead they are interested in having fun, one-night
stands, drinking, sex, etc...) because it gets in the way of having a career.

So, because of all this, starting a family, even if you really, really want
it, is excessively hard.

So... why bother? Why put a massive effort to work your ass off, if you won't
have anything to do with the money?

Alright, you go and work 60 hours/week, save money... and now what? Buy a
house, to live in it alone? Buy a car, that doesn't fit your parents garage
that has their car already? Or buy videogames that you can't play because you
work 60 hours/week?

It is logical, that the thing to be done, is do the mininum necessary to
support a loner lifestyle, this is not my case (far from it), but I've met
people where their current simple non-creative jobs can pay for international
trips, restaurants and prostitutes, but are still too far from supporting a
family, so... why not just stay where they are, and enjoy international trips,
restaurants and prostitutes? Why work so hard to not have any leisure time, if
the result would be reach old age alone, rich, and with nothing to spend that
money with and no friends?

EDIT: people are making some assumptions about me and understanding this
wrong. So to clear things up:

1\. I am more of a exception guy, I don't like one night stands and whatnot,
and don't go to bars or clubs, I look for women in my social circle, that is
academia, workplaces (related to tech, always), and church. The women I
described is what I saw there, maybe women elsewhere are different.

2\. I am from Brazil, sometimes I forget how confortable life in US is in
general, many people replied that you don't need two-person income if you have
a non-luxurious life, here in Brazil, the US "middle-class" life, of having
two cars for example, is only for rich people, most of the population can't
afford even a single car (I for example don't own a car, even if I summed all
my income of the last 5 years, I would still not have enough for a car), here
two-person income is necessary even if you are going to live in a favela shack
with walls made of discarded wood and roof tiles, I just assumed this was the
case for most of US too. I would love some detailed information if that is
true, or not.

3\. From what I've heard, housing, healthcare, and some other basic
necessities are very expensive in US in general, housing is very expensive in
Brazil too, even if bad quality "supermarket" food is cheap, you can't start a
family with a single income if you can't afford housing and healthcare, for
example if your kids get sick, how you will pay for it? Even here in Brazil
where the state gives completely free healthcare, people still consider it too
risky to not have healthcare money, sometimes your kid need something _now_
and you don't have time to wait the state.

4\. Some people reading the text are assuming I am a NEET myself... that is
not the case, I just find myself seriously tempted to do so though (because I
am trying, very hard, to get money to start a family, yet I never got a legal
job, and so far my total net worth is negative, some months I paid more in
interest than the monthly mininum wage)

~~~
TorKlingberg
> young women are not interested in serious relationships

Where did you get those weird stereotypes from?

~~~
speeder
Well, it is what they told me and my friends, and what my younger sister and
her friends tell to men interested in them.

Purely anecdotal, but as a guy 28 years old without a girlfriend, I would love
to be proven wrong.

~~~
JetSetWilly
Young women get a lot of offers, they of course have to tell 99% of them that
they are not interested - and to avoid hurting the guy's feelings, best to say
you are against the whole idea of a relationship.

~~~
StillBored
Right, so you can conclude three things. She isn't currently in a
relationship, and isn't actually interested in one, or she is looking for
something "better".

So, he should be figuring out how to keep these girls in his social circle,
rather than considering it a rejection. Guys have time on their side, and
maintaining contact with people has a way of moving them closer. Sadly, like
anything else "playing the game" is how you win. Getting to know people has a
way of overriding the initial physical attraction. Of course, it can go the
other way too, physically attractive women can frequently be socially
disgusting princesses.

------
internaut
Wages must rise. They have not risen for nearly four decades in real terms.
Major life expenses are unaffordable to all but the wealthy, such as housing.

This single fact explains lots of things in the present. It appears we're
trapped in a local maximum while journalists and politicians blithely ignore
the plateauing of growth, wages and technology outside of computation.

If you think everything is getting better and better, you've taken your eyes
off the road for a while now.

~~~
huherto
> Wages must rise

I would say that housing should be less expensive. These prices are impossible
even with a good salary. You need two good salaries to buy one house and still
have money for your other expenses.

~~~
tdb7893
I said this somewhere else in this thread but just move to the Midwest. There
is plenty of space and depending on where you want to live houses can be super
cheap.

~~~
jdavis703
There are many problems with moving to the Midwest. It's like someone
suggesting moving to Puerto Rico to save on money since a place with a vastly
different culture is not simply interchangeable (and I'm saying this as
someone who has lived all over the U.S.).

Edit: for the downvotes lets remember that Puerto Rico is part of the U.S. and
that Puerto Ricans are American (i.e. estadounidense).

~~~
kesselvon
You can have most of the amenities of coastal urban life in places like
Chicago; which even has its own coast and doesn't have the outrageous COL that
places like San Francisco, LA, or NYC have. Sure you're not going to make the
same crazy salaries, but you're also not spending 5k for a 1br apartment in
the Mission

~~~
jdavis703
What would you spend for a nice apartment by good transit?

~~~
fovc
My peer group just out of college in consulting paid $1000 - $1600 for nice
places. Low end of the range would be shared with 2-3 others and maybe 40 min
outside the loop. High-end would be for a 1BR 15-20 min out. You could also
live in West Loop (think lofts) in brand new places for even less

~~~
jdavis703
I imagine that heating and electric adds a couple hundred though? (in CA I pay
about $20/month for gas/electric, but remember paying hundreds when I lived
back east).

~~~
vonmoltke
> in CA I pay about $20/month for gas/electric

How the hell do you pay so little? I pay $25/month just to _have_ a gas
connection.

~~~
jdavis703
I'm rarely home and have a small studio apartment. I don't have AC (most homes
I know don't have it in Oakland), and there's almost no point in running fans
when I'm gone.

~~~
vonmoltke
That's my point. I could leave my house for a month, shut off everything that
uses electricity and gas, and still have to pay more than twice what you pay
just in connection charges. Do utilities in California just not charge flat
rates for connections?

------
larkinbrown
The recent employment report was dubbed as solid by many mainstream economist.
94,391,000 were not in the work force. That's not good no matter how you try
to slice or spin it !

------
ollerac
Google link to get around the paywall:
[https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c...](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj23bGW7fDOAhUCgx4KHU15DbcQqQIIHzAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsj.com%2Farticles%2Fthe-
idle-army-americas-unworking-
men-1472769641&usg=AFQjCNHk0rKbh-8VWT7QvcQJEyZA2JZ8qQ&sig2=1IpLylmM38cmnuOEaFR9gw)

~~~
eric_h
Best used in an incognito window if you've already clicked the direct link.

------
taxicabjesus
Early one morning I got a fare at a house at the southern edge of Chandler. It
was a young family - Man, Woman, Infant. They were going to the airport...

The man said that he'd tried driving for the taxi company, but it didn't work
for him. I had various other passengers who'd also tried their hand at taxi
driving, and couldn't make money. The traditional model for running a taxi
service involves leasing cabs out for 12 hour shifts. Drivers have to work as
much of those 12 hours to maximize their income. The first couple hours pay
for the lease. An hour or two pays for gas. The last few hours are when you
pay yourself.

This passenger had started driving for the Venture Capitalists' "not-a-taxi"
business, and he thought it was great. The venture capitalists' business taps
into the vast hoards of people who aren't good employee material, and those
who want to supplement their income. But the money wasn't really enough for
this passenger - he was working on a way to increase his income. After
expenses, driving for the venture capitalists is the same as driving for the
taxi company: they're both low-skill minimum-wage jobs.

It was a very nice neighborhood... I imagined that this family had support
from their parents to be able to live there.

When I was talking to my ex-wife yesterday, she pointed out that I value
freedom more than anything else. This is why I was drawn to taxi driving, and
why I stuck with it for so long. The taxi company had their dress code, and
standards. They didn't care what I did with their taxi, as long as I paid them
at the end of the shift. I could have found a regular JOB, but I _enjoyed_ the
adventure of going new places every day, and meeting new people every day, and
occasionally being sent to help someone who needed more than just a ride.

JOB is a backronym that stands for "Just Over Broke". My income from taxi
driving was enough to finance my entrepreneurial ambitions.

The only "real job" I've had was working for Amazon [1]. I worked at a summer
camp when I was 12 or 13. After I graduated from teh college with a "B.S."
Computer Science degree (it is an expensive piece of paper that hangs on my
father's wall), I worked at various family-owned businesses, and helped take
care of my grandparents...

I am not well-suited to being an employee. Now that I don't drive around in
the taxi anymore, I'm thinking about applying for the IT department at the
local hospital... Recently I went to visit a friend in the ER, and this fellow
was swapping out a scanner, so I struck up a conversation... It'd be a
temporary gig.

[1] [http://www.taxiwars.org/humanitys-second-best-
hope/](http://www.taxiwars.org/humanitys-second-best-hope/)

------
susan_hall
This is an interesting opening, coming from the Wall Street Journal:

"Millions of young males have left the workforce and civic life. Full
employment? The U.S. isn’t even close."

If the USA is not close to full employment, then the USA does not have to work
about inflation. And yet, in other commentary, the Wall Street Journal has
been obsessed with the risk of inflation, for many years now. They have urged
the Fed to raise rates to head off a surge in inflation. But if there is
hidden unemployment, then rates can remain low longer, with little risk of
inflation.

~~~
hx87
Inflation can still happen in sectors that have both investment-like and
consumption-like qualities, such as real estate, when massive amounts of
investment capital try to look for safe and/or high-yielding havens.

~~~
bsbechtel
Or the stock market, which keeps hitting all time highs despite anemic
economic growth.

