

Nathan Myhrvold unveils massive cookbook for science geeks - cwan
http://www.techflash.com/seattle/2010/08/former_microsoft_cto_nathan_myhrvold_unveils_massive_cookbook.html

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tptacek
If someone is thinking "what could I get 'tptacek for Christmas for all his
helpful comments", know that I can't justify dropping $500 for a book, but I
soooooo want to. ;)

McGee and Ferran Adria both say this set of books is going to change cooking.
McGee wrote basically the bible of culinary science (On Food And Cooking,
which you should buy even if you don't cook much, it's just a great, great
book to open to any page and thumb through); Ferran Adria is one of cooking's
greatest innovators.

~~~
joshu
On Food And Cooking is AMAZING. McGee used to live in Palo Alto too.

I just bought the Thomas Keller Sous Vide book. I'll probably buy the myrhvold
book too.

You know what I've found terribly useful lately? The Flavor Bible.

On the other hand, somebody got me the recent Herve This book on molecular
gastronomy and didn't really get much out of it.

~~~
tptacek
The Flavor Bible is also fun to flip to an arbitrary page in and read in
either direction, but it _really_ wants to be a web app, doesn't it? (There's
obviously a bunch of web apps that try, but they don't have the curation that
the book has).

I don't know if you've been following Myrhvold's cooking stuff, but my
understand is that there's a fair bit of mythbusting going on too; he gave a
talk recently where he claimed to debunk the notion that you have to poach
duck in fat to confit it, for instance (lies! all lies!). My cofounder Dave is
a cooking school grad and he's sure that this book is going to be hugely
important, even if you already have McGee.

But, $500 for a book!

~~~
joshu
Oh, totally. Do you know about foodsubs.com?

should we just set up a HN instance for cooking, or what?

I just bought the polyscience smoke injector thing. This weekend's going to be
tasty.

~~~
tptacek
I have an actual smoker in my garage, but my partner Dave just built his own
smoke gun out of $15 bucks worth of parts. Write something up about your smoke
injector thingy so we can all talk about smoked food next!

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jpp
I interviewed Nathan for my book (Cooking for Geeks, O'Reilly 2010) and will
be posting the interview online in the next few weeks. Meanwhile, to those
that complain about the price, I would guess-but do not know-that it is
probably being sold at printing cost. Nathan did not write this book to make
money; he wrote it to advance the field of culinary arts in ways that only
someone with his resources can.

-Jeff

~~~
nkurz
> I would guess-but do not know-that it is probably being > sold at printing
> cost

You sound more experienced in these matters than me, but this seems very
unlikely. I presume the book will be excellent, but Myrvhold has never been
shy about making money. Do you have more evidence back this up?

I haven't seen this book, but in general I've always been astonished by how
_low_ printing costs are even for full color hardbacks. A cost this high for
printing alone would seem extraordinary for anything but print-on-demand.

~~~
jpp
"Printing cost" is probably too loosy-goosey a term. Perhaps the better
sentence would have been: "I would guess—but do not know—that he will not make
much of a profit off the sales of the book itself."

What surprised me with my book was just how much distribution and storage
costs add up. Without getting into exact numbers, the printing costs
themselves can be less than those costs, not even factoring in amortized
costs. The comments that look at the per-page printing cost (2,400 / 400 =
$0.16 / page) leave that out.

What would make more sense to me in this case would be the potential
intellectual property (patents) that could come about from doing the research
for such a book. Regardless, from my conversation from him, it's clear he
loves the topic (as do I) and looks at it as a way to contribute to the world.
In his case, it just happens to be a business expense as well.

Fwiw, authors really don't make that much money on books, excluding the very
few at the top of the bestseller list. Nathan put it best: "How to make a
small fortune writing a book: First, you start with a large fortune, then..."
Having been through the process myself, I'd have to agree with the sentiment.

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mkramlich
A $600 cookbook? Well it has at least one thing going for it: it
differentiates itself from most alternative products in the category by being
so damn expensive that it could be seen as an ultra premium brand that only
the rich could afford.

Back to my ultra cheap and healthy rice that does not require any cookbooks to
make...

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tptacek
This isn't a cookbook. It's TAOCP, every volume, including the unfinished-but-
planned ones, for cooking. It is fully expected to knock pro chefs on their
asses.

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Revisor
Looking at the pictures at <http://modernistcuisine.com/> , I see a strong
sense of precision and symmetry.

Reading about the volumes, I see sentences like _new ingredients such as
gelling and thickening agents, emulsifiers, and foams have found their way
into every corner of Modernist cuisine._

 _Ever want to infuse liquid smoke into lettuce or noodles?_ Ehm, no, not
really!

 _using prehydrated starches and hydrocolloids to thicken hot and cold
liquids; making edible films_

I won't touch this pretentious book with a ten-foot pole. Cooking is an art, a
lore, not science or mathematics. And I want something more than "edible
films" on my plates.

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djmdjm
[http://www.amazon.com/Food-Cooking-Science-Lore-
Kitchen/dp/0...](http://www.amazon.com/Food-Cooking-Science-Lore-
Kitchen/dp/0684800012) is a good book that discusses culinary science, and it
costs a lot less than $450.

~~~
tptacek
You should absolutely buy this book; it's fantastic and extremely readable.
Flip to a random page: oh look, it's every herb used in mainstream and ethnic
cooking in the west, broken down by key volatile compounds!

McGee's column in the NY Times is also required reading. McGee "broke the
story" on gelatin consommes, for example (which by the way one of the coolest
tricks ever: simmer _anything_ in water for a few hours, strain, pour in 1/4
packet of gelatin, cool it, freeze it, and then let it thaw in a strainer in
the fridge; the gelatin does for the broth what a raft does for a classic
consomme --- just read the article; teaser: perfectly clear chocolate consomme
---

<http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/05/dining/05curi.html>

~~~
acqq
I have the book and was disappointed, my experience was "OK let's learn about
X" I search to find mention in the book, and I get something like "mostly
harmless." Or something with much less information than in the first few lines
of the wikipedia article about X. I still don't know where's any good stuff in
that book. Anybody cares to explain?

~~~
dagw
McGee is very much a compromise book. For any given topic, be it science,
practical cooking techniques or food history and anthropology there are
several better books out there. But if you only want one book that briefly
touches on all those things then McGee is a good introduction to many topics.
Look at On Food and Cooking as a starting place to get inspiration for further
research, not as a final destination.

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kqr2
Amazon link to book:

[http://www.amazon.com/Modernist-Cuisine-Art-Science-
Cooking/...](http://www.amazon.com/Modernist-Cuisine-Art-Science-
Cooking/dp/0982761007/)

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TheAmazingIdiot
Gah. I hate saying it, but 600$ for 6 books?!

Im sorry, but i'm poor. He deserves money for his accomplishments but i'll
wait for a torrent to be published. Then, I can at least read what he's doing
and be awed. And then ii'll stick with my goodwill 2$ cookbooks and written
down recipes.

~~~
tptacek
Where to start?

* It's not $600; it's $425.

* That's not far from what TAOCP costs per-volume.

* The production quality (and costs) of these books dwarf TAOCP's; TAOCP isn't also a set of coffee-table books.

* They're vitally important to cooking as a profession; moreso because there are so few key books (McGee, New Pro Chef, La Guide) in cooking, especially compared to computing.

* Myrvhold poured a huge, vast, mind-boggling amount of research into these books; they aren't a get rich quick scheme.

* If $500 is too much (and it's too much for me!), you aren't the audience; you want Cooks Illustrated instead.

* "Waiting for a torrent": classy.

~~~
TheAmazingIdiot
Where for me to start?

* Lost my job

* Sued for medical bills because insurance didn't cover what they said they would.

* Dumped my fiancé after horrendous fights and my emotional stability.

* Apartment complex broke my contract by letting her out of lease while holding me liable for the whole contract.

* Finally evicted and living in a spare room of good friends out of the goodness of their hearts.

* 3 month wait on unemployment in Indiana because employer disputed it.

* School is paid for, but due to medical condition when I failed school, they refuse me admittance calling it an academic issue - oxycontin, perocet, and hydrocodone = finals fail.

* My right arm can only bend in certain areas but load bearing above my head is less than 5lbs. Disabled enough for free schooling, but not enough for SS disability.

* 10% unemployment in this area.

So yes, maybe i'm "classy". However, you have no idea of my circumstances. Its
not like I could afford it anyway. The lawsuits for garnishment for my medical
bills have netted 0$. Cant get work. And im relying on my friends for food
even, until food stamps are granted.

So go ahead, heap on the criticism.

~~~
tptacek
Given your circumstances, why do you even have an opinion about $500
professional cooking books?

Sorry you got dumped on --- I'm really just commenting to point out that this
is priced along the lines of TAOCP --- but really why are you even thinking
about this stuff?

I meant what I said. Cooks Illustrated is excellent, and they publish so many
books every year that you can get (absolutely great) older editions for ultra
cheap.

And also, I meant it: don't torrent books.

~~~
TheAmazingIdiot
So because Im poor, I shouldn't keep reading about all sorts of things on the
forefront of technology, or at least form some sort of an opinion? And money
is hardly an indicator of intelligence.

Yeah, my situation sucks. Really sucks. However, I will still keep learning
and doing, even if I have to skirt the law here and there to do as such. And
if your point of not using torrents is because it's "bad", guess that makes me
bad. I've downloaded all sorts of material, quite a bit which is not offered
in any format.

And yes, when I was better off, I did buy stuff that I could easily have
gotten for free. But your high and mighty attitude would never excuse it for
any reason, an attitude I despise.

~~~
starkfist
When I was broke I read lots of books but certainly didn't care about what a
patent trolling dong from Microsoft thought about Sous Vide (still don't).
Maybe that's what t.ptacek meant?

~~~
tptacek
Patent troll or not, you (probably --- I don't have the books) have to respect
the effort. The guy has a zillion dollars and has chosen to spend some of it
to make the largest possible impact on cooking. That's pretty cool.

~~~
starkfist
I'm sure it's cool but it's a topic I have no interest in.

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camperman
Isn't this the same guy who makes money patenting obvious things in
programming and computer science and then collecting taxes on others' hard
work? I'll pass thanks.

