

Job hunting experience (and few advices) - rmldsky
http://lists.lrug.org/htdig.cgi/chat-lrug.org/2012-November/008294.html

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ninjay
I'm graduating soon from a top university (not Ivy League though) with a
masters in CS. I've interviewed with 4 companies so far and 2 of them have
just never gotten back to me. One of them was after 4 interviews including a 4
hour coding test. I sent several emails, but just silence.

I can only attribute this behavior to cowardice. I guess they (HR) are just to
afraid to be upfront. I apply to one company at a time so they have my full
attention. Finding out I waited around for nothing makes me rage. It's so
incredibly rude to treat people like that.

I want to start a list of companies that do this. Make them accountable, or at
least keep people from wasting time.

In fact, here they are: SpaceX (4 hour code interview, then nothing),
LogicMonitor

~~~
jdotjdot
You got lucky with SpaceX. From what I hear, it's a sweatshop, with minimum 70
hour weeks and 120-hour weeks not unheard of.

~~~
jk4930
One joins SpaceX with a sense of mission and urgency. Their rate of progress
comes with a price. That should be clear upfront.

~~~
jdotjdot
I'm of the school of thought that that kind of life isn't "a price," it's poor
management. Work quality (as well as employee health) decreases with
incredible speed under those kinds of conditions, with very real permanent
damage possible.

I don't know if it's clear upfront or not; I never was looking to interview
there. But "a sense of mission and urgency" is no excuse for what can only be
considered labor abuse.

~~~
jk4930
If one wants to work for SpaceX we can assume that he's at least aware of the
space industry environment and SpaceX's goals to get to Mars by the end of
this decade (plus some years of buffer). It should be clear that SpaceX
utilizes the available (human) resources intensively to iterate quickly over
new design approaches.

I'm positive that with a more cosy, relaxed way grasshopper wouldn't safely
land and no Dragon would dock at the ISS. In this case SpaceX wouldn't exist
any longer.

~~~
jdotjdot
It's not about "cozy" or "relaxed"--regardless of my thoughts of how cushy or
stress-free an environment should or shouldn't be, SpaceX is at the point
where simply you are reducing the productivity and effectiveness of your
employees, as well as their health. They are __more likely __to make mistakes,
which in the case of space exploration, can be life-threatening mistakes.
There are quite a few articles out there describing how lack of sleep (not to
mention stress) cause people to react similarly to how they would if they were
drunk (<http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2010/05/sleep/max-text>). Less
social acceptance of drunk employment, but similar danger and productivity
loss.

I think you'd need to provide more explanation of why you think the
Grasshopper wouldn't land if SpaceX's employees were permitted to get a full
night's sleep. Why is SpaceX different than NASA? As far as I know, no one
ever worked those kinds of hours at NASA, and certainly not for years on end--
maybe for the week before a space launch. I know if I were an astronaut, I'd
much rather the people at mission control were well-rested and alert rather
frenzied and terrified of management, falling asleep at the controls.

------
ivix
_I sent him my CV only to be told it "was corrupt and unreadable" and that he
couldn't open it. I had to convert my "corrupt" ODT file to a MS Doc file._

Lose this attitude, fast. Do you want to convince recruitment agents to change
their word processor, or do you want to find a job?

~~~
bgdnpn
I always send my CV in PDF format.

~~~
offdrey
So do I, but a lot of agencies insist on Word format, because it's easier for
them to hide your contact details when they send the CV to their clients.

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shrikant
I can completely understand his frustration with being put on the spot without
much of a warning.

I had applied for a data analyst position with a "Big 4" shop, and after an
initial phone screen, was asked to come in for an "aptitude test". After
probing for details, all I was told was that this test would be around data
analysis in my domain (which happened to be retail banking credit risk), with
no further details about the format or structure.

Imagine my surprise when I came in, and realised it was a written test! That's
right -- I had 40 minutes to write down detailed answers to questions on
sheets of paper. One of these questions was a couple of tables and required me
to write SQL queries that did a couple of operations on the tables. All with
pencil and paper.

I spent about 5 minutes of the allotted time just re-acquainting myself with
the 'art' of penmanship, and ended up focusing more on legibility than content
(my handwriting is atrocious, barely more than a chicken scrawl).

Needless to say, I didn't get the job. And the kicker was, the HR chap said
they would provide feedback on why I was unsuccessful, but never did, despite
repeated follow-up attempts.

Bah, humbug.

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rumcajz
One thing I don't get are the automated tests.

Assuming that average hourly rate is $50, the developer spends $100 of his
time doing the test and thus showing commitment to reach an agreement about
the job. The company, on the other hand, spends nothing and thus makes no
commitment whatsoever.

The proposition is not atractive in any way unless you are completely
desperate.

So, the company is basically selecting for the worst developers.

Is there any point I've missed?

~~~
swinnipeg
You still spend 2 "unbillable" hours of your life if it is a phone call
instead of a test.

And obviously there will be some costs to the company, the test didn't develop
itself, and there is likely a developer reviewing the code after completion.

In this case the developer is in a different city, the test appears to be
designed to see if it is worthwhile to bring him in for further interview.

~~~
rumcajz
If it is a phone call, the company is spending money/time as well. It's mutual
commitment.

Developing test beforehand requires no commitment ($0) to particular
applicant. There's no commitment.

As for reviewing, I've seen A/B/C/D tests out there. These can be evaluated
automatically. So once again, no commitment.

Now, the point is than anyone -- if there's an option -- prefers situation
where there's at least some commitment from the other side. Thus, the guys
with automated tests are going to hire only developers which have no other
choice. It looks like they are shooting themselves in the foot.

------
elhum
You'd be better off sending your CV as a PDF, that way there are no
'corruption' issues.

~~~
reidrac
I always use PDF, but most agencies will ask you for the CV in an editable
format.

I specially dislike that, but if you think about it nothing prevents them to
copy & paste into a doc document (well, if they ask for an editable format may
be they lack the skills to do it, who knows!).

~~~
iaskwhy
Well, they are trying to help you get a job, they have a better idea on how to
do it so the least you could do is provide them with the information they
need. Given that most people still use Windows, I would, at least, send a Word
document with the PDF. You can also send the ODT, nothing against that.

~~~
tcwc
They don't do this to help you get a job. Recruiters insist on an editable
version so they can remove your contact details and insert their letterhead.
This makes it harder for their clients to contact you directly and cut out
their fee.

~~~
iaskwhy
I'm sure that happens sometimes but I've seen lots of CVs coming from
recruiters which had new sections crafted by the recruiters themselves like a
summary of why I should care about that person, etc. They depend on me hiring
that person to get their fee so I expect them to provide me more than the CV
itself.

------
pathy
"Second agency: After talking to this agency that specialises in Ruby work, I
sent him my CV only to be told it "was corrupt and unreadable" and that he
couldn't open it. I had to convert my "corrupt" ODT file to a MS Doc file."

Why on earth would you send an recruiter/agency an ODT file? I mean sure, I
get that you want to use Open/Libre Office but it is hardly standard for any
company so using it seems rather silly. If you are gonna send your CV, make it
easy for the recruiters or agencies to read it.

~~~
jdotjdot
Agreed. Not everyone is aware of OpenOffice (or even if they are, of what the
.odt extension refers to), and PDF is probably the best way to go.

If you're _really_ against proprietary formats, why don't you just create a
simple HTML/CSS webpage, supported by all browsers?

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csl
For anyone willing to relocate, Norway is desperate for engineers and
developers. Everybody gets 25 days vacation, near-free medical services,
insurance and pension covered by employer, 40-hour working week being the
norm, etc.

~~~
seivan
Pension might not be available when the person get old. Near-free medical
comes with loooong waiting lines just because the company doesn't want to
spend money on real insurance.

40 hour work week is a lie. Its a damn lie and is a lie.

Also, you forgot to mention your living costs and taxes.

Then again, I'd take Norway over Sweden just because Sweden is fucked and
Norway is pretty responsible financially and is doing well with it's oil
reserves.

~~~
kal00ma
I'm working in Norway currently. For what reasons could your pension be denied
when you become old? (Assuming you are a permanent resident by the time you
want to collect).

I've found in the government jobs, the <= 40hr week is pretty much guaranteed.
I agree that the waiting times are a little crazy--I had to wait 3 months to
see a specialist after a recommendation from my fastlege.

~~~
seivan
Do your research regarding the pensions. They can deny you in terms like the
country being piss poor. England has done it, Hungary just did it recently,
England is planning on doing it again.

------
auctiontheory
Many of the anecdotes related here remind me of my own first job-hunting
experience - not in a good way.

Best advice I ever got? Read _Ask The Headhunter_.

It's not all about you. These employers have a problem to be solved - that's
why they're hiring. Figure out what their problem is, and how you can solve it
for them.

------
cpayne
All I can say is - welcome to the real world! Remember, an agency only makes
money when they place you. I know it sucks, but that's the harsh reality. I
now just accept that unless they do come back to you, the answer is no.

I've been doing this for a few years now and seen companies that ask you to do
a +1 hour technical test. I can't imagine what they are looking for, but know
it isn't me. Maybe they are just testing the market? Maybe they want to know
if they are paying their developers too much? How bad do you want to work for
a place like that?

Sometimes you never can tell, just chalk it down to a bad experience and move
on...

------
currycoder
Congratulations! You've had your horrific first interview. Mine was slightly
kinder to me - kicked off with a friendly chat and then annotating
code/explaining an algorithm. It took a nose dive - much like yours - when I
was asked to write simple classes representing a retail store on one of the
interviewer's Asus Transformer. An android device with a notepad app.

Its a learning experience. What I did immediately when getting home was write
the damn task to completion to prove I could do it. Mainly what interviewers
are wanting you to do in that kind of task is vocalise what you're thinking.
It's useful to them since you're showing a logical approach to understanding
and breaking down the problem. You show that you're a communicator. It's
useful to you since you're talking it aloud and generally this allows you to
avoid pitfalls before they happen.

I don't think you're going to completely avoid this kind of task in future
interviews, so practice with a friend! Don't get too disheartened - this
experience is one that a lot of grad coders will have and now reviewing it and
improving is a task that will let you kick ass in future.

------
gearoidoc
My advice? Come to Dublin instead!

Loads of Ruby/Rails jobs, an ace startup scene in an exciting city and the
friendliest people in the world :)

~~~
fendale
Is there somewhere Dublin startups tend to advertise openings? I'm in Belfast
and I have wondered in the recent past if there would be any opportunities to
work semi-remotely for a Dublin based startup. There is plenty of work in
Belfast, but it tends to be Java / .net developers for big corporations.

~~~
gearoidoc
RubyJobs (<http://www.rubyjobs.ie/jobs>) sometimes has startup positions
listed but your best bet is to just pop down to a Ruby meetup
(<http://www.rubyireland.com/>) cos there's where all the startup peeps hang
out. The first line of dialogue with practically anyone at these things is
"Are you looking for a job" - but obviously the more well known you are in the
community the more often you'll be asked.

My experience is relatively limited (about 5.5 dev years) but once you've a
good reputation then you'll never have to look for another job - it'll be
lined up for you. Until the bubble bursts that is!

I also know a good recruiter (one or two exist!) who does work for the odd
startup if you're interested in taking that route. Email me (ger [at]
getchoocreations.com) if you're interested.

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jijji
I will admit that I solved this "problem" around 1994 just by simply
automating the process of searching and responding to jobs. So, once you
realize that really what you're dealing with is a numbers game here, you'll
come to realize that automation is the key to it. I will admit that I've never
had a problem finding a job, only because I get 20 calls per day when I chmod
755 /etc/cron.daily/find_jobs.sh... Sorry to let the cat out of the bag.

------
evolve2k
I'm looking for remote ruby work for ~25 hours a week. Anyone have tips on
landing part-time remote work?

