

Thinking in a Foreign Language Makes Decisions More Rational - gruseom
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/04/language-and-bias/

======
jtheory
I have many years of first-hand experience; I'm an American who has lived in
(mostly rural) France since 2006.

This may well be true; but I've found that in actual, real-world interactions,
the fact that I'm speaking a non-native language is mostly a disadvantage in
decision-making.

I'm normally relatively non-confrontational even when speaking English. But in
French, I've found that this is hugely magnified, and I suffer for it. Even
when people are being unacceptably rude to me or people around me, I'm stuck
being polite and agreeable.

In French, when someone calls me on the phone, trying to sell me something,
I'm only now (after 6 years here) getting comfortable interrupting them.

Not long after moving here, I had a clearly intoxicated man invite himself
into my house (even though my wife & I had two visitors staying with us), and
he eventually even _asked to borrow one of my women_ (because apparently my
wife plus the two women visiting were "mine"?!), and I eventually got rid of
him, but I never said anything remotely impolite.

I hired a local workman just starting his own construction business to replace
the fence around our garden, and he persuaded me to pay in advance even though
his incompetence was already becoming clear (and the end result was already
falling apart by the time he "finished"). I never said anything
confrontational.

These are embarrassing stories to tell; I'd never let things like this happen
if I were on my own turf, linguistically. In English I can be subtly cutting,
or curt, or strongly rude, or whatever I want with no further thought, when
the situation calls for it.

In French, when someone insults me I'm still wondering if I may have
misunderstood, or am missing social cues, or if I've accidentally offended
_them_ and their behavior is justified. In a confrontation, I immediately feel
like I'm in over my head, and taking control of the situation is almost
impossible.

It's slowly improving -- my French is already quite good, and I'm relearning
how to manage in difficult situations.

But it's been a serious downside I hadn't expected before moving here, and if
this is a general effect I imagine it would offset the advantages studied here
pretty significantly.

~~~
robomartin
I have to disagree with you. I think it is cultural much more so than
language. I have lived in a couple of cultures and travelled extensively
during the past ten years. At the risk of offending more than a few, there's
what some have come to call the "feminization" of American men. Maybe it's a
result of the ability to sue anyone for anything, I don't know. But there's a
very distinct characteristic to men (an women) from other cultures that will
place the uber-polite American men and women at a disadvantage in certain
situations.

Here's an example that isn't really about what I am talking about but speaks
to the cultural and environmental differences:

Here in Los Angeles it is not too uncommon to see people crossing a street
without even looking right or left and without continuously scanning for cars
as they cross the street. I've also seen (kids!!!!) crossing the street
running. Now, go down to Buenos Aires and try that on for size. Or do it in
Rome. Or cross a bike path in Amsterdam without looking. You'll land yourself
in a hospital, if you are lucky.

It's the same out in Manhattan, of course.

Non-scientific, non-extensive observation, but I don't think the lack of
assertiveness has anything to do with language but rather culture. I can be
assertive in a few languages, but I spent most of my young life in a more,
shall we say, "fire-y" culture.

~~~
carguy1983
> _Here in Los Angeles it is not too uncommon to see people crossing a street_

I live in SM and work in West LA. Most of the crosswalks simply don't have
lights. Not even the ones in the ground that flash yellow. If you don't go for
it, you'll never cross because there's no reason for anyone to stop.

"Feminized" (and I disagree with this characterization because - have you met
any females in latin or european countries? Quite assertive.) men would just
stand there, waiting for traffic to stop. I see that here a lot from clueless
people.

Locals like me just charge into traffic on foot, consequences be damned. I
just walk in front of a 50MPH vehicle and stare them down and dare them to run
me over. Hasn't happened yet. Try it some time, that's livin' ;)

~~~
robomartin
"Feminized" isn't the right way to put it. I just threw it out there. As you
correctly point out, women in other cultures are quite assertive. I should
point out that I am not the one to coin the phrase:

[http://www.askmen.com/dating/curtsmith_100/142_dating_advice...](http://www.askmen.com/dating/curtsmith_100/142_dating_advice.html)

[http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8...](http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=feminized+american+men)

Walking in front of a car doing 50mph might be OK in West LA. Please don't try
it in another country unless you want to experience their intensive care
facilities.

On the point of crossing the street with fast moving traffic, you don't really
need to do what you are doing. It's a dance. If you've ever been to Manhattan
you know what I am talking about. Cross a little, wait, one more lane, wait,
etc. No big deal if you know what you are doing.

What I am talking about is the total absence of the external appearance of
awareness. It's one thing to cross the street and stare a driver in the eyes.
It's quite another to cross the street while looking at the ground. I teach my
kids that if there's no eye contact with the driver they don't get in front of
that car. Plain and simple. They've also had some "training" in Manhattan and
parts of Europe. You'll never see them cross a street without looking.

To be clear, being masculine does not mean being a complete asshole. In fact,
quite the opposite, in my opinion. It's a balance. It's being a gentleman
while remaining assertive and considerate. It is yielding your seat in the
train to an older person. While, at the same time, not bending with the wind
when it is important. It's about a balance that I can't fully define. All else
being equal, I don't think it has anything whatsoever to do with language.

~~~
carguy1983
I find it somewhat cute you think New York and Europe have aggressive drivers.
In my experience, with the exception of Rome, they basically follow the rules
and give right of way. Boston is worse than NY. Nobody even stops at red
lights.

Try visiting Asia. They actively _try_ to hit pedestrians to teach them a
lesson, especially in large cities like Shanghai in China (TW and SG and JP
are a bit better).

The opposite end of the spectrum is Denver, CO. People just wander around in
the streets. It's a known thing. The cab drivers all hate it.

My point is that the culture of LA allows it, so you should do it. LA isn't
any of these places. And yes, I'm bragging about how well traveled I am right
now.

~~~
robomartin
I wasn't necessarily talking about drivers but rather people in inter-personal
contact.

Asia is on my list. I've mainly done Europe and S. America. Almost went to
Tokyo to study Aikido for six months but just couldn't pull it together. Maybe
next time.

~~~
carguy1983
Wow, Japan, where they worship white people.

How adventurous and original of you. Did you think of that one all on your
own?

------
hasenj
When I was religious, I noticed a very strange thing going on in my mind: when
religious ideas were expressed in English, they sounded stupid, hilariously
stupid, but when the same idea was expressed in Arabic, it sounded very
normal.

------
crazygringo
This reminds me of how ridiculous TV ads look in foreign countries. It's not
like they're any more ridiculous in your own country, but when they're
presented in a new way and a new language with new products, they just seem
so... inane, and you can't believe anyone would be persuaded by them. But of
course, we all are...

~~~
UnFleshedOne
Interestingly enough, I find ads in my own language (russian) way more
ridiculous than similar ads in english (not that I often see either). So it is
possible that you are looking at objectively more ridiculous ads.

A similar effect happens with code -- any language with syntax localized to
russian looks funny to me.

------
JamesLeonis
This article sounds eerily like one I read last night about a study centered
around religious belief and critical thinking [1]. It sounds like deliberate
use of heavily analytical thinking displaces the "gut check" in the decisions
we make.

[1] [http://news.discovery.com/human/religious-belief-critical-
th...](http://news.discovery.com/human/religious-belief-critical-
thinking-120426.html)

~~~
robomartin
Interesting article, thanks for bringing it up.

------
ma2rten
Previous discussion of the original paper:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3876695>

------
avalenciano
Just as a note: Published in one of the journals (Psychological Science) that
was mentioned a few days ago in another article about trying to replicate
psychological experiments as part of the Open Science Framework ("Is
Psychology About to Come Undone?" [http://chronicle.com/blogs/percolator/is-
psychology-about-to...](http://chronicle.com/blogs/percolator/is-psychology-
about-to-come-undone/29045)).

------
saraid216
It's really important to recognize that the causal link is very, very specific
here: thinking in a foreign language _reduces the framing effect_. That's the
whole of the claim.

Expecting it to make all of your other decision-making events more rational is
more than a little silly.

------
sakai
Full text of the original paper:
[http://portal.unitbv.ro/proxy/download.ashx?dec=1&url=uh...](http://portal.unitbv.ro/proxy/download.ashx?dec=1&url=uh4QwdELmSQKwh0PmD07tSpMxqiKsSZJmS0LvD4BvD3LtqfOvhALl9aNl8YM0cYN1cYM1noS0PAT09eN0dlOlnwUmCtRvgMKwg4CB6X)

------
skore
Being German, my native tongue has sort of a reputation for being overly
analytical and rational. Still, English has long since become at least an
equal partner in my own head, and when developing or even just sitting at my
computer, it has long surpassed German in usage.

I find English in itself to be very comfortable to think in, but this article
made me realize that it may be more about _not having to think in German_ than
it is having the privilege to think in English.

~~~
xtracto
For me (native Spanish speaker), English is the language of work. That's
mainly because I used it for my MSc, PhD and a postdoc. During that time I
only used Spanish to speak to my wife. Moreover, all the technology reading I
do is in English.

Now that I am back in Mexico, I feel funny discussing work related issues in
Spanish.

------
mike_ivanov
How do you folks _think_ in a language? I don't understand it and it really
pisses me off... How is it possible at all? What is the process of such verbal
thinking? How it feels like? Is it like words sounding in your head or
something?

~~~
gruseom
_Is it like words sounding in your head or something?_

I would say it's close to that, except there isn't the feeling of a sound.
It's more as if language were a muscle and you were exercising it silently,
producing words. Not that all thoughts come in complete sentences or even with
words, but some mental processes definitely involve language. I'd be surprised
if you didn't have this as well. Hard to say, of course. But you may catch
yourself "thinking in words" someday and then realize you do it all the time.

Random tangential statement: I predict that Sapir-Whorf will come back into
fashion and be thoroughly rehabilitated.

~~~
mike_ivanov
> I'd be surprised if you didn't have this as well.

No, I don't. Neither the people I asked. Everyone I asked agrees there are two
separate processes: thinking and translating thoughts into words.

> "thinking in words" someday and then realize you do it all the time.

No, I do not. Moreover, I don't even have to. I clearly remember myself at the
age when I didn't talk, yet I was able to think and I still can do it.

------
replax
previous discussion and link to the original paper here:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3876695>

------
bmelton
I suspect (but have no real insight) that this is similar to the wisdom we
gain from Rubber Duckie coding[1]. For those unaware, the process is simply to
explain what you're coding to a rubber duck.

The duck, being an inanimate object, obviously has to be talked to like a
moron, so you end up explaining it "like it's five".

What I've often found happens though, is that in the process of explaining it,
or just in organizing the logic in my head enough that it can be explained --
is that you find logic flaws in the application you may not have been aware
of.

[1] - <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging>

~~~
zitterbewegung
The study says it reduces the framing effect. The idea of Rubber Duck
debugging is to reduce cognitive dissonance.

------
robatsu
I spend 1/2 time in Japan because my wife is Japanese. Our 8 year old is
bilingual, my wife is fluent in english but learned as an adult, and my
japanese is rudimentary.

Some of the comments disagreeing with the research, I can sympathize with from
my perspective in Japan - certainly I feel at a disadvantage due to my
language limitations.

However, I think the presumption in the research is that the subjects
understand the language, that this disadvantage is removed. The thesis is that
if one is fluent in a second language (or not disadvantaged by non-
understanding of linguistic constructs), one is freed of cultural constraints
that attend to native speakers of the language.

Going from personal experience observing my wife debate in english, and again,
she is fluent, the language is much more of a coldly analytic tool for her -
the words all have their nominal meaning. However, over the years, as she has
grown more culturally fluent, I've observed this effect declining.

Just anecdotal observations.

