
Cheese changed the course of Western civilization - edward
http://qz.com/371839/cheese-changed-the-course-of-western-civilization/
======
galacticLactic
Lots of "likelihood," "probablilities" and "maybes" floating around in that
article, and not a lot of certainty. I find the article scant on proof, and
speclative at best.

In particular, there's this:

    
    
      What this meant, says Kindstedt, is that “children 
      and newborns would be exposed to milk frequently, 
      which ultimately through random mutations selected 
      for children who could tolerate lactose later into 
      adulthood.”
    

Explain to me how childhood exposure to milk (the period when humans tolerate
lactose) selects against lactose intolerance in adulthood?

For example, so let's say you have a mixed population of families, where
initially there's a prevaling majority of hereditary lactose intolerance, but
with a minority of the new mutants present, who decades later will comfortably
continue to consume dairy.

Mutations are typically recessive so you might have households where one
parent is lactose tolerant, and none of the children are, due to the lottery
of gene expression in sexual reproduction. Maybe some intolerant children are
carriers and some aren't, but it's still a roll of the dice.

How does consuming dairy products as a child select for this trait which will
not be expressed until years later? What obvious mechanism of selection am I
failing to understand here?

Are medieval societies filled with stories of the lactose intolerant
humilating themselves with dairrhea on prom night and reducing themselves to
social pariahs, doomed to die childless and alone? I mean really.

~~~
MaysonL
_Explain to me how childhood exposure to milk (the period when humans tolerate
lactose) selects against lactose intolerance in adulthood?_

People who are lactose tolerant will be able to continue drinking milk well
after those in their birth cohort who are lactose intolerant will have to
stop. They will thus be likely to be substantially better fed with subsequent
better health.

People who are lactose tolerant will be able to survive famines where lactose
intolerant people will starve.

~~~
galacticLactic
Sure, I get the general concept that we assume must exist because it sounds
like it's probably reasonable, but there's no concrete smoking gun evidence of
that particular mechanism at work anywhere in the world. Not even in folklore.

Where in history is the famine in which plenty of farm animals were thriving
and impregnating and lactating amongst one another, but all the humans had to
live on was milk?

~~~
baddox
That's like asking when in history was there some catastrophic era where
particles were flying into some organisms' eyes and the only individuals that
survived were those who (through genetic mutations) had small hairs around
their eyes that managed to catch some of the particles.

~~~
digi_owl
I guess it is hard for most to come to terms with just how long time scales
evolution works on.

------
lordnacho
Is lactose tolerance purely genetic, or is there an element of exposure that
causes it?

The reason I ask is funnily enough that I've made the same observation as
xiaq: I'm Chinese. There's no suggestion of any other ancestry than far
eastern, yet I can still drink milk.

My mom is lactose intolerant but my dad seems to be able to process it. Though
he doesn't expose himself much; it's just not that big a part of Chinese
diets. I grew up in the West, where kids get milk all the time.

I guess another way to say it is if a kid drinks milk and keeps doing it, will
he suddenly get the squits from it one day?

~~~
neeleshs
I'm from India and this is anecdotal, but I've never met a person who's
intolerant to dairy. I heard about lactose intolerance only after moving to
the US. In most part of India, dairy is an integral part of diet.

~~~
mangamadaiyan
I'm from India too, live there presently, and what follows is anecdotal as
well.

I first heard of lactose intolerance when my son became lactose intolerant at
age 1.5. I also discovered then that the pharmacies were stocked with lactose-
free milk substitutes (soy milk was comparatively harder to get hold of).
They'd apparently been stocking this stuff for years.

More surprising, the first time I heard of a nut allergy was when a friend
(around the same age as yours truly, born sometime in the decade of The
Emergency) said he had one.

------
xiaq
Interesting. As a Chinese I have always wondered why lactose intolerance is so
common in China but not in the west. Turns out I asked the wrong question :)

~~~
douche
That is something that I also, as an American of mostly English/French/German
descent, have wondered about. It was, quite frankly, a revelation to me when I
first encountered people who were lactose intolerant in college.

It seems even more unlikely, given that China has had so much interaction with
the nomad peoples from Mongolia, Manchuria, and central Asia, who lived mostly
off of their herds and milk-products.

~~~
xiaq
> It seems even more unlikely, given that China has had so much interaction
> with the nomad peoples from Mongolia, Manchuria, and central Asia, who lived
> mostly off of their herds and milk-products.

Dairy products never really made it into Chinese diet.

The next question to ask is why diary products didn't make it into Chinese
diet despite the interactions with the nomad peoples :)

~~~
douche
That is a very interesting question. The most obvious answer is that most of
south-central China is just more suited to rice production than
cattle/sheep/goats.

I still find it interesting, since many of the more successful Chinese ruling
dynasties have central/north asian roots (Tang, Yuan, Qing). Considering that
Genghis Khan is probably an ancestor to most of the eastern half of eurasia,
once might expect those lactose-tolerant genes to be more prevalent.

~~~
xiaq
> Considering that Genghis Khan is probably an ancestor to most of the eastern
> half of eurasia,

This is simply wrong.

Maybe some 16 million. But that has also been more of a hypothesis. See
[http://clubtroppo.com.au/2012/10/15/why-genghis-khan-wont-
ha...](http://clubtroppo.com.au/2012/10/15/why-genghis-khan-wont-have-
had-16-million-descendants/) for one of the refutations for instance.

~~~
jobposter1234
Just to make sure the HN record is balanced, I point out for future readers
that Wikipedia currently records that some research suggests he is a critical
ancestor to approximately 0.5% of the world's population.
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descent_from_Genghis_Khan#DNA_e...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descent_from_Genghis_Khan#DNA_evidence))

I do this not to participate in the argument but to point uninvolved readers
to objective sources.

------
pablobaz
This rapid evolutionary change is one reason why much of the reasoning for
"Paleo" diets is flawed. Humans have changed since Paleo times.

~~~
noelwelsh
A better way to approach the Paleo hypothesis is as just that -- a hypothesis.
I think all reasonable people agree that humans have changed somewhat since
paleolithic times (and grains were possibly part of our early diet) but it
still seems quite reasonable to posit that 1) our diet has changed greatly
since the longest period of human evolution and 2) it may well be more
healthful to return to a diet closer to the paleolithic diet. That's a
reasonable hypothesis that can be tested.

Of course that's not the way the popular press and fitness industry approach
the Paleo diet, but one shouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

~~~
axlprose
While that is true, it's also good to take into consideration the fact that
the rationale/hypothesis behind a diet plan doesn't have to be right in order
for the diet itself to be useful.

Personally, the paleo hypothesis has always sounded rather dubious to me, but
there's more than enough evidence that the ketogenic effects of paleo-like
diets are useful at least: [http://ketopedia.com/principia-
ketogenica/](http://ketopedia.com/principia-ketogenica/)

~~~
TillE
Yeah, if your "paleo" diet happens to kick you into ketosis, then you've
stumbled across a beneficial thing. If you're eating lots of fruit and starchy
vegetables, it's probably not doing much for you.

------
dghf
I can't see how the article justifies its title. Did the (comparatively) lower
level of adult lactose intolerance in the West have social, cultural, economic
or other effects significant enough to be described as a change in the course
of civilisation? If so, what were those changes?

EDIT: s/tolerance/intolerance/

~~~
ealloc
See [http://www.nature.com/news/archaeology-the-milk-
revolution-1...](http://www.nature.com/news/archaeology-the-milk-
revolution-1.13471). Lacose tolerance apparently allowed middle-eastern nomads
to wipe out and replace the native european hunter-gatherers, and set up an
agricultural society in their place.

"In a 2004 study, researchers estimated that people with the mutation would
have produced up to 19% more fertile offspring than those who lacked it. The
researchers called that degree of selection “among the strongest yet seen for
any gene in the genome”."

------
wampus
I remember reading about American Indians killing nursing buffalo calves and
cutting open the stomachs to feed the curdled milk to their children as a
special treat (almost like ice cream). Surely hunters of mammals throughout
the ages were familiar with this delicacy. Why isn't this considered the
'discovery' of cheese?

~~~
jobposter1234
Lack of direct and corroborating evidence. Lack of specificity.

IE, a very common historical bias: if it's not written down, it didn't happen.

(FWIW this is a very difficult problem that I do not claim to be an expert in,
but I think that's the answer to your question, unless I missed it...)

------
InclinedPlane
One thing that's missing from this is a more nuanced discussion of lactose
intolerance. It's not a simple binary thing like celiac disease or an allergy.
It's possible to consume around a cup (250ml) of milk per meal for lactose
intolerant people, but doing so without experiencing typical lactose
intolerance symptoms requires regular exposure and building up to those levels
(possibly due to micro-biome effects). What that means is that a group of
people that started introducing animal milk consumption with infants might
also begin consuming milk through adulthood in small quantities. That would
provide the sort of situation that would make it easy for adult lactose
tolerance to have a major evolutionary advantage.

If teens and adults are drinking small amounts of milk regularly as well as
some amount of cheese then those who are lactose intolerant (the common case)
will only be able to get calories from the fat and proteins. But anyone who
has acquired lactose tolerance will be able to consume an unlimited amount of
dairy products and will also gain around 40% more calories from the lactose.
That's an enormous dietary boost especially for people who are struggling at
the margins of livelihood and malnutrition. More calories means less stunted
growth, which means stronger bodies, and a greater ability to survive through
harsh winters or lean times.

------
WalterBright
And cheese is a marvelous invention.

------
jimworm
Pajata [1] is unweaned veal intestines, and contain a cheese-like substance.
It's one possible source of cheese invention.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigatoni_con_la_Pajata](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigatoni_con_la_Pajata)

------
dghughes
I'm a blue-eyed, blond, cheese eating adult and I like it.

That reminds me of something I read about blond, fair people and milk I didn't
see it mentioned in the article about vitamin D which is added to milk these
days but I don't know if it has any naturally. People with fair skin, blond
hair in northern climates helps in the dim sunlight to get enough vitamin D.

I also recall reading that people living in a northern climate who have access
to large amounts of fish allowed generations of that group of people to retain
a darker skin colour since the vitamin D from fish meant people didn't need
fair skin to get as much vitamin D from the sun.

------
comrade1
Cheese is an awesome food. It's high-protein and high-fat and is perfect if
you're a farmer or in some other way burning a lot of calories.

Where I live (switzerland) we eat a ton of cheese and it's seasonal, with
Spring/Summer cheese being when the cows are in the mountains eating clover,
herbs, and grass, versus in the Fall and Winter when the cows are in the
valleys eating hay. There are something like 5000 varieties of cheese in
Switzerland if you include every village and farmer and their sub-varieties in
the list, but for mainstream cheeses there's something like 500 varieties. You
can get unusual different cheeses every weekend if you're willing to take a
trip to some random village in a tucked-away valley. (sausage too! especially
if you're willing to eat sausages made with horse, deer, dog, etc.)

I'm not Swiss but my wife and I still eat a ton of cheese. It's so good here
and such a part of the culture that you can't help but take to it. We burn off
the calories like the Swiss do with hiking and skiing every weekend.

~~~
macspoofing
That's one of the things Europeans (anecdotally Germans and French) who work
or study in North America complain about. Cheese quality and selection (and
price!) here is crap. In fact, food quality here seems to be a notch lower.

~~~
tiatia
1\. US milk does not taste good. Actually, it does not taste at all. I always
thought this is just in my mind until a Swiss guy said the same.

2\. All milk products are do not taste so well and often have poor quality.
Cheese, Yogurt etc.

3\. You can get excellent cheese and yogurt but this comes with a hefty price
tag. E.g. Whole foods etc.

I have the impression that supermarket foods in the US have a much lower
quality compared to Europe. You can get the same or better quality, if you can
effort to pay for it.

~~~
BinaryIdiot
> 1\. US milk does not taste good. Actually, it does not taste at all. I
> always thought this is just in my mind until a Swiss guy said the same.

I don't believe this. Milk sold at a super market comes from cows and cows
need to be semi local to bring milk to any store. I'd love to know how milk
from other places is somehow superior. My suspicion is that it isn't and just
confirmation bias (that or someone is comparing different types of milk (e.g.
2% versus homogenized) which is a poor comparison).

~~~
mryan
On the face of it, it is easy to say "it's just milk, it all tastes the same",
but there are significant differences in how milk is produced in the US
compared to the EU.

Most US-made milk is produced using genetically engineered growth hormones
(rBGH) which are banned in the EU as they are believed to increase the risk of
cancer. It would not be legal to sell US milk in the EU (or Canada) for health
reasons. That, and other differences in production methods, could go some way
towards explaining the perceived superiority.

~~~
dworin
I'm skeptical. Less than 20% of milk produced in the US uses rBGH, and most
health organizations, including in Canada and Europe, agree that milk from
rBGH/rBST cows is safe for humans. The reason it's banned in the EU and Canada
is because it's a health risk for cows, not people. And the reason you're not
likely to get US fresh milk in those countries has more to do with
transportation costs than production standards.

If I had to guess, I'd say the most likely reasons for flavor differences are
1) different pasteurization techniques 2) fat content 3) consumption
temperature (you can't taste sugars as well when they're cold).

------
eddiedunn
I don't like the term "lactose intolerant". It implies that having difficulty
digesting lactose is differentiating you from some loosely defined norm.

In fact, the opposite is true[1]. As the article states, being able to digest
lactose is a recent genetic adaption. What it doesn't state is that still,
even in the West, a lot of people experience lower tolerance to lactose as a
natural process of aging.

I would therefore say that the correct way of labeling it is that adults in
general have different levels of _lactose tolerance_.

Anecdotally, I can add that my level of lactose tolerance was very low for two
years after drinking half a liter of milk that was two weeks old (don't ask).
I assume that it severely messed up my small intestine. After I cut carbs and
gluten from my diet for a month and a half, I could suddenly digest lactose
again. As with lactose intolerance, I believe gluten intolerance is a
misnomer, as all people are sensitive to excessive amounts of gluten, though
here the case is not nearly as clear cut. My intestine finally being able to
repair itself might instead be due to the fact that I didn't eat many carbs at
all during this period, and so avoided the gastro-intestinal allergens known
as FODMAPs[2]. Wheat contains the FODMAP fructan, which might be the reason
many people say they feel better on a gluten free diet[3].

[1]: [http://www.collective-evolution.com/2013/04/03/over-75-of-
ea...](http://www.collective-evolution.com/2013/04/03/over-75-of-earths-
population-is-lactose-intolerant-for-a-reason-dairy-is-harmful/)

[2]:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FODMAP](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FODMAP)

[3]:
[http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2014/05/22/314287321/sensit...](http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2014/05/22/314287321/sensitive-
to-gluten-a-carb-in-wheat-may-be-the-real-culprit)

~~~
noir_lord
> I don't like the term "lactose intolerant". It implies that having
> difficulty digesting lactose is differentiating you from some loosely
> defined norm

It's a scientific term created purely for succinctness and description, it
carries no connotations.

~~~
eddiedunn
Fair enough, I'm surely being overly sensitive here. It's just that, here in
Sweden at least, being 'lactose intolerant' suggests there is something wrong
with you, when the truth in fact is just that your lactase persistence[1] is
more akin to that of the rest of the world.

It carries connotations here. I'd say it does in the US as well, given the
jokes about it I've seen on shows like the Big Bang Theory.

[1]:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactase_persistence](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactase_persistence)

