
A 13-year-old girl reportedly makes over $1,000 a day creating ASMR videos - davidjnelson
https://www.businessinsider.com/mackenna-kelly-asmr-children-videos-2019-2
======
anonytrary
Reactions to this girl's channel went viral on YouTube a few months ago. The
main instigator was this[0] slightly controversial video response to this
girl's ASMR channel. The linked video went viral and got banned, then unbanned
and demonetized. The main gist of the speaker here is that there's something
fishy about underage girls making these videos. Some of this girl's videos are
blatantly sexual (she re-enacts porn-plots, references Tinder, dating, etc.),
and her viewerbase seems to know that and want that. The whole situation is a
bit sketchy.

[0]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M78rlxEMBxk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M78rlxEMBxk)
(NSFW)

~~~
gotocake
Goddamn, I really _really_ didn’t expect that level of extreme creepiness. The
honey thing was weird, but the “sassy” policewoman thing? Wow. If you walked
in on someone watching that, you’d be seriously concerned. Again, my asmptiom
going into this was “oh boy, Internet moralizing and outrage again,” but
it’s... incredibly sketchy. At best.

~~~
whatshisface
Moralizing has gotten a bad rap over the past couple decades, to the point of
being almost completely declawed in progressive circles, but one can only hope
that morals will grow their claws back soon enough for stuff like this to be
stopped.

No matter how liberal you are, you're shooting you a future self in the foot
if you profess a unconditional disregard of moralizing, because eventually you
may discover that you do actually have morals. All it takes to get enligtened
is for something bad enough to get spread around.

Edit: don't get misled by thinking I'm using the Twitter/Cable News
vernacular, by liberal I mean "permissive," and by progressive I mean "in
favor of changing things." Those categories could apply to the forces in any
culture, even historical cultures.

~~~
thundergolfer
Where have you gotten the impression the 'progressives' and 'liberals' would
have any qualms about calling out how dodgy these videos are?

~~~
whatshisface
By "liberal" I mean more liberal than average, which requires pushing back or
at least not supporting at least one taboo. By doing so you put yourself at
risk of dismantling your own ability to keep any taboos around, even the ones
that actually are right.

I'm not talking about political groups; by any measure in urban areas the
political group called liberals would be just "normal," or "average."
Progressive doesn't mean "Democrat," a Democrat in a blue county that believes
things should be the same tomorrow as they are today is by definition a
conservative.

~~~
iad
What are these lost taboos you're referring to?

It sounds like you're saying people ought to go back to being homophobic, for
example, because it will save us from a slippery slope to pedophilia?

~~~
PavlovsCat
What slope? Some people are already there.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vux3-uFNtLw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vux3-uFNtLw)

~~~
iad
Some people have always been there. That doesn't mean they got there because
not being homophobic is a slippery slope.

Your video seems to be about a pedophile who is upset that the LGBT community
_isn 't_ inclusive of pedophilia. I don't understand what point you were
trying to make by linking that.

~~~
PavlovsCat
The point is that that some people are already using the good ideas like
tolerance about what people do in the bedroom to sneak outright pedophilia in
there. Where you see someone complaining that not everybody accepts it, I
first and foremostly see someone who _does_ accept the argument they are
making, otherwise they wouldn't be making it. That doesn't not count just
because not everybody on the planet agrees with them. And if you think that's
just the one person that exists, rather than an example for many persons that
exist, that's a very bold assumption.

And in Germany for example, there is quite the long and sordid history
regarding that, among other things with people trying to legalize "consentual"
[sic] sexual relations between minors and adults, but I don't know if there is
anything thorough in the English language about it:

[https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%A4dophilie-
Debatte_(1970e...](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%A4dophilie-
Debatte_\(1970er_und_1980er_Jahre\))

And that was directly in the wake of working against discrimination of
homosexuality. For some naive people, it _all_ fell under the umbrella of
"being different sexually", and for pedophiles, that was how they tried to get
a foot in the door.

This sentence

> Die Debatte über die Legalisierung pädosexueller Akte ist historisch eng
> verbunden mit der Forderung nach Abschaffung des § 175 (StGB)

translates to

> the debate about the legalization of pedosexual acts is historically tightly
> connected with the demand to get rid of [
> [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragraph_175](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragraph_175)
> ]

Or hey, this

[http://www.taz.de/!5143954/](http://www.taz.de/!5143954/)

An article about an article that appeard in 1979 in the taz, declaring
pedophilia is a victimless crime in the title. One sentence from that:

> Bei einem Blick in die Archive wird klar: Teile des linksalternativen
> Milieus sympathisierten mit Pädophilen - zumindest boten sie ihnen einen
> ideologischen Rahmen.

translates to

> A look into the archives makes it obvious that parts of the alternative left
> scene sympathized with pedophiles - at least they provided an ideological
> framework to them.

So, that already happened. And it absolutely was fueled by being overzealous
about being liberal and progressive -- that's not what made anyone a
pedophile, but that's how some people fell for the schemes of pedophiles, and
let themselves and their networks be used. That's a fact. I'm not familiar
with similar things in North America but I wouldn't outright bet on not
finding anything _if_ I had the nerve to go looking, which I don't at this
time.

edit: there's ignorance, and there's active suppression of information. what a
cesspool.

------
malikNF
I remember seeing a video posted on /r/videos about how this girl's parents
were probably exploiting her for money and how youtube is not doing anything
to stop this.

\--edit--

there it is. (please be warned this is very NSFW)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M78rlxEMBxk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M78rlxEMBxk)

~~~
crescentfresh
For those may not know, Wubby's video (the video you linked to) was taken down
by youtube and a strike was incurred on Wubby's account [1], while the
video(s) that he criticized continue to remain up.

It was eventually re-instated and the strike removed, but for a while there
the drama surrounding this imbalance of discourse was through the roof on
reddit.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM4OwGhchUA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM4OwGhchUA)

~~~
on_and_off
Why was the video taken down ?

I have just watched it, so far I disagree with him (this ASMR channel is weird
as fuck but I don't think it makes it sexual) but I don't see what would
justify taking down his video.

~~~
DanBC
He shows that Youtube says that sexualisation of children is absolutely
forbidden on YT, so they banned his video. Yes, this is baffling when they
left up the original channel.

~~~
on_and_off
I don't understand your sentence.

Do you mean that his video was taken down because it sexualizes a child ?

If so, that's almost as weird as these videos themselves

~~~
DanBC
Yes, his video was taken down because YouTube said it sexualises a child.

------
sandworm101
What is the danger here? There are kids making more money on youtube doing
other things. Is this sexual? Because nearly anything can be sexual for
someone. Some are excited by people popping balloons. The only complete answer
is to ban kids from youtube, and that isnt going to happen.

Before going after asmr, take a close look at who watches the gymnastics and
cheerleading "demos". Pole dancing is also now a sport for kids. That is on
youtube too.

I once taught a law class where we had to discuss this stuff. If you take away
every "sexualized" image of an under-18 you are blacklisting huge areas of
modern culture, everything from family sitcoms to superhero movies. Some
disney movies have scenes that are shocking when you play them on thier own,
many ironically on youtube... which made playing them during lectures much
easier on me.

~~~
Zenbit_UX
Interesting that HN is just hearing about this, it made the front page of
reddit back in October when a youtuber named wubbey "investigated" it.

His video is both funny and hard to watch due to the extremely awkward sexual
undertones. So to answer your question, is this sexual?

Yes, and that seems to be the intent of whoever is running that channel.

See for yourself:
[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M78rlxEMBxk](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M78rlxEMBxk)

~~~
sandworm101
This issue comes up all the time: is it sexual per se, ie for everyone, or
does the viewer make it sexual? Balloons are not sexual. They only become so
in the mind of certain viewers. Is asmr always sexual, or does it only become
so because a kid is involved? That might say more about the viewer than the
material.

Without clarity, if there is room for debate, i side with not restricting the
speech rights of these kids.

~~~
Rebelgecko
Out of curiosity did you watch the linked video? This isn't "Pizzagate"
looking for pedophilia where it doesn't exist. The girl posted a video titled
"sassy cop roleplay" featuring dialog that sounds like it came from a traffic
stop in a cheesy 90s porno, but updated with Tinder references. It's not
illegal bit that doesn't mean that YouTube has to host it. They've certainly
deleted and demonetized videos for less.

~~~
sandworm101
Ya, but that is nothing compared to some of the other vids on youtube.
Teenagers make and post crazy stuff every day. I am very hesitant to start
pointing fingers at behavior that in other context our culture openly
encourages and rewards. I dont like it, but it is the sort of thing best left
to parents imho. I had some girls at my door last halloween dressed as harley
quin. If thier parents are ok with it then im not going to say a word.

Imho they looked less sexy than literaly very cold.

------
swayvil
This is the first time that I heard of ASMR. Verrrry Innnnteresting!

I work in a similar field. Inducing weird feelings and related trippy stuff. I
tend to the other end of the spectrum tho. Crass strobes. Full saturation.
Lots of throbbing.

[https://vimeo.com/308956882](https://vimeo.com/308956882)

If we can do drugs via digital audiovideoetc then.... a very important field
of development is suggested.

~~~
w45yq3a
Thanks for sharing, these are really lush. It seems like high-frequency
visuals have a lot of latent potential; frequency oscillation has been widely
explored with audio, but less so with visuals, even though our ability to
rapidly interpret complex rhythmic patterns exists in both fields. There is
perhaps a long history of related work you're familiar with, but I first came
across this type of phenomena in an early film by Tony Conrad:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY5VryfCRig](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY5VryfCRig)

Have you experienced significant perceptual changes from viewing them for
extended durations? Are there specific sequences / parameters you've found to
be more powerful than others?

If you don't mind sharing, I'm also curious to know what language you're using
to write the software!

~~~
swayvil
Key elements that I see are

synchronizing the audio with the video. Video strobes correspond to audio
strobes.

Some kind of simple physical-metaphor sound and video logic. Like, bigger =
lower, smaller= higher. Certain colors correspond to certain sounds. Simple
stuff like that.Like cartoon logic.

Total engrossment of the senses. Fill them up compltelely (thus "whelmer"). I
see smell, tactile effects... stuff like that, being incorporated later.

There is definitely some kind of trance thing happening.

There is another tech at my site (fleen.org) called "clouded plain" that uses
moving intersecting vibrating stripes. MUCH hallucinations off of that. Little
kids like it very much. They just stand and stare.

I wrote it in java.

You really should download a hq copy and view it projected large (like 6-10
feet tall) with nice speakers. Here :
[https://www.dropbox.com/s/6t9skr0ua4le5ma/whelmer46a_5m.mkv?...](https://www.dropbox.com/s/6t9skr0ua4le5ma/whelmer46a_5m.mkv?dl=1)

------
yantrams
I got to know about ASMR recently thanks to the video that was taken down and
the description felt very similar to what I've experienced since I was a kid.
I used to even flaunt this as a super power when I was young. Wondering if
someone knowledgeable could explain-this-phenomena / suggest-some-literature
to me. Reddit probably is the right place to enquire about this but here goes
nothing.

I can spontaneously generate this tingling feeling at will by moving my chest
muscles ever so slightly. This act lifts my shoulders a tiny bit and results
in a mild pulse descending from the back of my head that flows through the
spine. Doing this continuously 3-4 times results in goosebumps in the right
weather conditions.

I got a similar feeling(comparitively milder than what I could generate
spontaneously) when I watched/listened-to one of the ASMR videos which made me
wonder if there a way to quantitatively measure these ASMR responses claimed
by people.

~~~
marlboro
I made an account to comment on this. I experience a similar thing but the
generation feels like it comes from the base of my spine and travels up rather
than down. I've been rather unsuccessful at finding out anything substantive
about it. There's a lot of woo surrounding it - I'd recommend checking out
what people say about Kundalini meditation as it seems to describe what you
and I have experienced.

When I was a child I thought it was conscious generation of adrenaline. Now
I'm wiser I know that's probably not true, but it certainly feels very
similar.

~~~
audiometry
As I sit here reading your comment, I generated same kind of feeling, throat,
neck, down spine, and forearms. I thought, "oh yeah, that thing." I guess I
can kind of do it at will, though it's sort of difficult to explicitly
describe. Almost think that when I focus to do it, the effect is more
reluctant.

------
ykevinator
I hope this doesn't ruin the kid for real work.

~~~
willbw
US median income is roughly $30k, why would you want to do "real work" if you
can make a decades worth of money in a year? *

* not saying the particular characteristics of this story are not a little creepy

~~~
mb_72
Isn't that the same argument that could be applied to child actors / singers /
performers? I don't know the statistics, I admit, but there seem to be not so
many people who were those things are a kid who are happy and well balanced
people, and many who are not (or who are dead). Given the sexual undertones of
a child doing ASMR, I can't imagine being a child Youtube star is going to
work out any better.

------
sergiotapia
Pedophiles.

Just look at some of the comments left on her videos.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M78rlxEMBxk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M78rlxEMBxk)

~~~
BurningCycles
I watched it expecting hyperbole, but yeah, this seems very aimed at
attracting a 'certain audience'. Then again what do we expect, sexualization
of children seems to be increasingly accepted.

I've recently seen media celebrating kids in sexualized drag, not even
condemning 11 year olds dancing for money in bars.

~~~
sergiotapia
That poor kid in drag dancing for dollar bills is in for a _rough_ life.

I'm completely blindsided how HN people are downvoting the comments
highlighting the pedophilia.

------
dbg31415
If you find it easier to fall asleep with the TV on... you're likely someone
who would enjoy ASMR.

I used to think of it as, "That tingling feeling in your head when you learn
new things." And there are so many triggers. Throughly enjoyable to explore.

* What The H-ck is ASMR!? - YouTube || [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFqbWwKg_o4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFqbWwKg_o4)

But... yeah, look, the kid doing it in sexy clothing... pure cringe.

* Kids doing ASMR is a problem - YouTube || [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M78rlxEMBxk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M78rlxEMBxk)

As was YouTube's response to all of this. TL;DR: YouTube removed the critic's
video of the kid's video, saying the critic's video was "sexual" but they left
the kid's video.

* Apparently Kids Doing ASMR Was A Problem: YouTube Deletes Video - YouTube || [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM4OwGhchUA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM4OwGhchUA)

Now all the videos are back, but some have been de-monetized.

------
mieses
that there is a discussion about this at all is saddening.

------
cm2187
In a way that's the power of capitalism. I don't think any central planning
committee in a centralised economy would have ever thought there was a demand
for that stuff!

------
User23
Never before have I wished I could downvote a submission.

Edit: Because this is a toxic subject and there will never be interesting or
productive conversation about it, not here or anywhere.

------
0x8BADF00D
Part of me wonders what kind of person pays for these types of videos. $1000 a
day is also quite disturbing. First it starts with paying for ASMR videos.
Then it becomes paying for underage cam models. I can’t help but see the
parallels in the business model here.

~~~
mirimir
I don't think that anyone pays directly. This is estimated ad income.

But viewers most likely include other children. Plus the soft pedophilia
market. Which is huge.

And yeah, this is just a more sophisticated take on the cam whore thing. With
lots more protection of performers from their audience. As long as it's
totally child-driven, I don't think that it's problematic. But when parents
are pushing their kids, it becomes exploitation.

~~~
rasz
nah, she takes "requests" and makes personalized videos, its pretty much
straight cam __*^^^camgirl

~~~
mirimir
Oops, missed that. I have no Google account, so can't "sign in" to see any of
that junk. But damn, "personalized videos". That's totally camgirl.

