

RIM sues Kik for patent infringement - imack
http://blog.davidlam.ca/2010/12/rim-sues-kik-for-patent-infringement.html

======
alanh
Background:

0) Kik is like cross-platform BBM for Blackberry, Android, and iOS users.

1) RIM had previously removed Kik from the Blackberry “App World” store.

2) Then two weeks later, they revoked Kik’s developer keys and crippled
existing Kik installs by disabling Push support. This meant Blackberry Kik
users (reportedly over a million of them) would start getting Kik messages up
to an hour late. Link / discussion:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1935093>

⁂

A week ago, we discussed the possibility of a lawsuit. Discussion:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1935182>

⁂

Strikes me as evil and, as some of you are saying, a bad move politically for
their platform. Even if only those 1,000,000 Kik on BB users care, and most BB
users don’t, we developers generally give a shit, because this seems grossly
uncalled for and anticompetitive.

~~~
nano81
Suing Waterloo students is also not how to build rapport with the massive
number of co-op students they hire every term.

~~~
muffinman2010
What a bitch move RIM, there will be more UofT students filling up RIM now...

------
st3fan
Wow this is huge. They could have just removed them from the store. Instead
they start a patent suit to basically kill the company.

Interesting strategy. RIM can't do much directly about the iOS and Android
competition. But they can sue popular cross-platforms apps. Evil evil evil.

~~~
alex_c
I don't want to defend RIM, because I don't know anything about the lawsuit
(other than it's likely to be a software patent for something relatively
obvious).

But I don't see this as significantly more evil than "just removing them from
the store". A lawsuit shows that RIM has a serious grievance (whether
justified or not) and moves to settle the matter of competition through an
official legal framework (whether flawed or not).

Unilaterally removing an application from app markets that are "open to all
developers unless we say they're not" for competitive reasons strikes me as
more evil in some ways. We are just a lot more used to it because of Apple's
app store.

~~~
potatolicious
There is a significant increase in evil-ness between the two IMHO.

Banning them from the store/crippling their existing installs is basically:
"we don't like you competing with our first party offerings, so get the hell
off our platform"

Suing them now, given that Kik is still active on other platforms, is
basically: "we don't like you competing with our offerings, so we're going to
prevent you from operating _anywhere_ , even on platforms we don't own or have
any control over"

I don't know about you, but the second seems a bit more evil than the first.

~~~
enjo
But at least Kik has recourse in the lawsuit case. In the former they simply
don't have the right to exist because the platform holder says so. It's not
good for customers and it's sure as hell not good for developers.

I agree with the parent, simply booting someone from your walled garden is
more evil in the sense that they can't do anything about it.

------
tomlin
Something funny about them being literally a block away from each other.

RIM could have walked over to their office and had been like, "hey, can yous
guys stop the messenger app. k thx. bai".

Google Map: <http://bit.ly/ftLWro>

~~~
scott_s
Go ahead and post long links on HN. We'd rather see the URL we're going to,
and the text for really long URLs will get shortened. Example:
[http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&q=search+fo...](http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&q=search+for+a+really+long+string+to+demonstrate+a+point)

------
spacemanaki
I can't pretend to be well informed on this kind of business strategy, but
wouldn't another option be to BUY Kik? Turn the iPhone and Android app into a
RIM-branded, cross-platform BBM, and incorporated it into the BlackBerry
client. Maybe risky, but it might help their platform more than a lawsuit...
If it was a really solid app maybe iPhone or Android users would think of
getting a BB for their next phone, and it might keep current BB users where
they are.

I dunno, this whole affair definitely seems poorly thought out. BlackBerry app
development is horrible enough as it is, and there are more and more things
making it unappealing. (one of the CEOs said mobile apps are a fad a few weeks
ago)

~~~
dedward
They don't under any circumstances WANT a cross-platform BBM.

BBM is the one killer-app keeping people using blackberries due to the network
effect.

The only reason I still have a blackberry is because friends and family in far
off countries also have them, and vice-versa - we cna talk to each other
freely and easily on the run. BBM is really good at this. We would _all_ have
to switch to something new, and just as reliable, at the same time to make
jumping platforms viable.

As soon as there is something that works as well as BBM that's cross platform,
lots of people will jump ship as soon as they are able, as long as they can
reach their BBM friends (who will eventually jump ship too)

~~~
spacemanaki
I hear this a lot about BBM, although I've never used it. I think you're
right, of course, about them not wanting a cross-platform version. I just
wondered if there was something other than a lawsuit they could have done,
since a lawsuit seems so ill-fated from a PR angle... Android and iOS are
going to continue eating their lunch whether Kik exists or not.

------
S_A_P
Nothing says we want developers on our platform like suing the popular app
makers. Even if there seemed to be some IP theft here, I think lawsuit is a
horrible way to solve the problem. There is just no PR spin you could put here
to fix this.

~~~
jonknee
How else would you resolve an IP theft situation? Asking nicely?

~~~
dalore
Not approving the app in the first place into their store, wait till they are
popular and a threat.

If they are stealing IP then RIM should not have let them onto the store to
begin with. RIM should know what their IP is.

I would say that if they RIM already reviewed their app and let it onto the
store, that is a tacit implication that they approved the app with RIM's
(alleged) IP in it.

~~~
jonknee
Perhaps RIM's IP attorney isn't working at the app store? Lucky for RIM
though, I'm sure the app store legal agreements don't include anything silly
like having an approval be a license for any RIM IP.

------
Batsu
Perhaps in relation to this patent (and a host of others, I'm sure)...

METHOD FOR CREATING A PEER-TO-PEER IMMEDIATE MESSAGING SOLUTION WITHOUT USING
AN INSTANT MESSAGING SERVER

<http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=RRaUAAAAEBAJ>

~~~
andreyf
This might be stupid/crazy, but might it make sense to have a DNS for phone
numbers? Why not have 6464680751.cell resolve to a public IP address of my
phone? If another phone wants to send it a text message or make a phone call,
could it just use the variety of protocols on top of IP?

~~~
tudorg
I think ENUM (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_Number_Mapping>) is
meant to do this. It is used by some telecoms.

------
OmarIsmail
As a founder of a Waterloo startup this pisses me off to no end. If RIM hadn't
taken such hostile actions Kik may very well have been a Next Big Thing. I
mean, Kik might still achieve that - and I damn hope they do - but it will be
in spite of RIM's hostility.

Now for Waterloo region which has been trying to make a name for itself in the
tech/startup world, having a Next Big Thing coming out of it would have been
huge. It would have benefited the region from a financial standpoint (think
PayPal mafia) and it would have benefited the region from a talent attraction
standpoint.

RIM's actions are not only an assault on Kik they're an assault on Waterloo's
startup community as a whole.

~~~
axiom
I think they still will be the next big thing. This will buy them more
publicity than any kind of PR budget.

------
fertel
I would love to see the specific patent(s) Kik is infringing upon. It's a
pretty standard IM client, if as the article says it is for: "sent, delivered,
read, and even when a user is typing a message." then RIM has a lot of apps to
go after.

Could be something more than that, as the CEO was a RIM employee at one point.

------
wildmXranat
I'm sorry but how is this patentable : "I haven't read the Statement of Claim
outlining RIM's allegations against Kik yet, but I suspect that the patent at
issue covers a messaging platform that provides sent, delivered, read, and
typing indicators."

Having family work at their Waterloo head office leaves me torn and full of
questions. Even though I don't own a RIM phone, I handled their Storm and it's
rock solid. The feel is much better my 3G test phone or couple of Android
phones, but as a developer I choose to support companies based on merit. RIM
just came down a notch in my book.

I compared Kik on my Android and the BBM on the Storm. I would be
flabbergasted to find out the Canadian courts would allow this claim to play
out.

------
Rantenki
I wonder when they will sue skype (which also has these indicators)...

Funny how RIM wrote an open letter (strangely removed from their site now)
about how patents were a problem, and needed to be reformed. They got sued for
similarly obvious patents not long ago, and had a very different attitude from
the defendant's side of the argument.

Article about the now redacted letter: <http://goo.gl/e6e4U>

------
andre3k1
Anyone able to attain a copy of the lawsuit?

This is what the article links to: [http://cas-ncr-nter03.cas-
satj.gc.ca/IndexingQueries/infp_RE...](http://cas-ncr-nter03.cas-
satj.gc.ca/IndexingQueries/infp_RE_info_e.php?court_no=T-1996-10)

I doubt this lawsuit has any real substance. Other than RIM dragging Kik
through the equivalent of a legal hell, there doesn't seem to be much there.

------
mike-cardwell
I will _never_ buy a product from RIM now.

~~~
alex_c
Why not wait until you learn a few more details than a vague "RIM sues Kik for
something" post before you decide to boycott a company?

~~~
LordLandon
Before invalidating kik's keys, they removed kik from the bb market once
before, claiming battery drain as the problem. If that was honestly the
problem they had with it, there wouldn't be a lawsuit now, or there would've
been one earlier. This is most definitely an evil attempt at keeping bbm
relevant which began with a pretty sneaky excuse.

------
qeorge
Not mentioned here, but "RIM said Kik Chief Executive Ted Livingston worked on
product strategy for its BlackBerry Messenger."

[http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870459480457564...](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704594804575648932379804088.html)

Not a minor point.

------
dstein
I guess RIM went to the Oracle school of business. They're going to find out
exactly why this is a VERY bad move. They're going to have an awful time
trying attract developers for their platform.

------
flogic
lol! I guess it's official. RIM has decided they're a has been.

~~~
andre3k1
Without even reading the lawsuit, this has been declared official?

C'mon now, let's not be quick to judge. What if this lawsuit had to do with
Kik violating your privacy? Sharing your contacts' information, etc.

------
natch
Rim is taking a significant risk that its patents will be invalidated now for
obviousness, or, just as likely, if prior art surfaces.

------
mikepurvis
I wonder what the feasibility would be of developing a web client for
BlackBerry, with long-polling or websockets for the notifications.

<http://us.blackberry.com/developers/browserdev/>

The key viral feature was using the addressbook to populate the contact list,
and you'd lose that, but still be able to implement a bunch of the other
stuff. I can't tell from that browserdev page how much of the "widget API" is
stuff that you'd need to get bundled up and signed, and how much is just
available in the browser.

Either way, this is a pretty developer-hostile move on RIM's part. That's
okay, though; all indications are that RIM is capable of developing a large
selection of beautiful, compelling, worthwhile first-party apps for the
Playbook. A third-party developer ecosystem would really just weigh the
platform down.

------
terryjsmith
While I agree with the consensus that this is evil (essentially cutting a
start-up off at it's knees), RIM has a legal obligation to enforce that patent
if they know someone is infringing or they risk losing it. The Kik founder
should have been much more vocal about being booted and having his keys
revoked; now he makes himself look like an easy target. He really needs to put
PR pressure on RIM at this point if Kik is going to survive.

~~~
nano81
I think you're confusing patent with trademark:

"As a trademark must be used to maintain rights in relation to that mark, a
trademark can be 'abandoned' or its registration can be cancelled or revoked
if the mark is not continuously used. By comparison, patents and copyrights
cannot be 'abandoned' and a patent holder or copyright owner can generally
enforce their rights without taking any particular action to maintain the
patent or copyright."

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark#Comparison_with_paten...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark#Comparison_with_patents.2C_designs_and_copyright)

~~~
JabavuAdams
Are you an IP lawyer, 'cause if not ...

I can easily see how choosing not to enforce a patent might make it harder to
claim infringement in a later case.

It's not that the patent would expire, but that there would be a precedent of
not caring about infringers.

~~~
nano81
IANAL, but does that make what I said wrong? He didn't say anything about
setting precedent, he said they risk "losing" the patent if they do not
enforce it, which is just not true. If you have a source saying otherwise, I'd
love to see it.

~~~
JabavuAdams
IANAL, but I have a vague memory from a patent talk. So, I can't disprove you,
but I can remain more skeptical of your claim, unless you're an IP lawyer --
in which case I'd assume you know something I don't.

Regarding the semantics of "lose" -- why does it matter in any discussion of
real-world actions or motivations?

Even if I don't lose something, if I do things to erode its usefulness, I've
essentially lost its functionality. Therefore regardless of whether I legally
lose the thing or not, I'm going to resist doing things that (possibly) reduce
its effectiveness -- the result (in terms of my actions) is the same.

------
martythemaniak
From this, it would seem that Kik violated both Apple and RIM store
guidelines:
[http://getsatisfaction.com/kik/topics/serious_privacy_flaw_w...](http://getsatisfaction.com/kik/topics/serious_privacy_flaw_within_kik)

My take: RIM saw the violations and the threat to BBM and decided to ban Kik.
Apple saw the violations and the threat to BBM and decided to leave them
alone. Makes sense in both cases

------
dalore
> I haven't read the Statement of Claim outlining RIM's allegations against
> Kik yet, but I suspect that the patent at issue covers a messaging platform
> that provides sent, delivered, read, and typing indicators.

So the guy admits to not reading the statement outlining the allegation, but
he will comment on it anyway.

------
yesno
BBM is the key of BB existence for regular/most BB users outside Enterprise.
Without BBM, BB is probably crippled.

------
jeremydavid
I hope the Barbra Streisand Effect happens here.

I love Kik; it is a brilliantly simple app that I use everyday and I would
certainly be happy if more of my friends used it.

------
rradu
How else would you expect RIM to react to a product that infringes on one its
core features? It's been pushing BBM heavily in its marketing campaigns, and
can't afford to have that exclusivity taken away.

Doesn't seem evil to me.

~~~
mustpax
By outdoing them in features, performance, installed userbase. You know,
competing.

~~~
rradu
So should Apple drop all the lawsuits it has pending against other companies
so it can focus more on competing?

What I'm saying is that it doesn't seem unreasonable, as others are making it
out to be, for RIM to sue a company for making a product that's nearly
identical to its own.

