
Nine-year-old child to graduate university - codegeek
https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/14/europe/university-graduate-child-genius-scli-intl/index.html
======
lacker
When I was a kid I knew a lot of other kids in some sort of "advanced math"
track. I was going to math camps, attending the international math olympiad,
that sort of thing, so I met a lot of others in a similar situation. One kid
was enrolled in college at 13, and some others were in a similar situation.
Whereas another cohort of kids basically just cruised through or skipped their
high school math classes, learned advanced math quasi-independently in
parallel, and stayed socially integrated with their classmates.

I don't know so much about electrical engineering, which is the subject in
this article. But for mathematics, I don't think it's a great idea to advance
to college super early.

One big problem with the plan, which a lot of people don't realize, is that
your typical university math degree isn't that much more challenging than
doing well in high school math. The people who went, for example, to Ohio
State University while they were young, and took their undergrad math classes,
generally didn't describe them as very intellectually interesting.

You also just miss the social interactions of having a peer group near your
own age. But I think those are more apparent to people. The problem is that
you think you're exchanging some social interaction for a great intellectual
experience, and then you don't even really get a great intellectual
experience.

My recommendation to kids who are great at math and thinking about taking
college classes is, don't. If the math classes at your high school are too
easy, ask your teachers if you can skip straight to the AP exam. In my
experience, teachers who are hesitant to break the rules of the system are
more willing to believe the "proof" of an AP exam, and a smart kid can ace an
AP exam in a subject they know nothing about with a little bit of cramming.

It's better to wait and go to a top-tier school rather than to start college
super early at a medium-tier school.

For math specifically, you can usually just start taking graduate math courses
during your freshman year at university. That way, you get the intellectual
stimulation of grad school, but the social stimulation of an undergrad
program. And if you change your mind and decide you want a career in something
other than mathematics, you have plenty of time.

~~~
nostrademons
> One big problem with the plan, which a lot of people don't realize, is that
> your typical university math degree isn't that much more challenging than
> doing well in high school math.

That wasn't my experience. (I went to a top liberal arts college - it didn't
give minors, but I took enough math courses that it would've been a minor at
other schools.)

In my experience, post-calculus college-level math is qualitatively different
from high-school math in focusing on proofs and abstractions over problem-
solving, techniques & algorithms. I had an intuitive sense for high-school
math. College math kicked my ass, because I was asked to prove everything
rigorously, and the proofs just kept coming, dozens of them per homework
assignment. That required a very different way of thinking than high-school
math did: you needed to remember this large body of theorems and combine them
in creative ways to derive new proofs, you couldn't just memorize recipes and
techniques that will get you the answer.

I found that physics was more like the continuation of high-school math,
except that then your courses had all this lab work and experiment design and
fundamental physical principles. One of my friends (a math/physics double
major) described it like this: "In physics vectors are objects that live in a
vector space, while in math a vector space is a set of axioms from which the
concept of a vector and rules for manipulating them naturally fall out."

Edit: hmm, just looked at the username. I know you, and I also know you're
better at math than I am. I'm curious just what kind of math you did in high
school and what you did in college where the college math was no harder than
high school. Either your high school had some really great math courses or
your college had some pretty shitty ones. Maybe it's just where we went to
school.

~~~
lacker
Well, I should be more specific. I think once you get into the sort of number
theory where you prove things about modular arithmetic, and the sort of
analysis where you are talking about abstract spaces rather than n dimensions
of real numbers, those courses are notably different from high school courses,
and all the focus on proofs is intellectually stimulating to advanced kids.

The courses which are typically boring for advanced kids are calculus, linear
algebra, differential equations, probability, statistics, combinatorics. Most
of an undergrad math degree usually falls into this bucket but it really
varies by university.

Also, there’s a big difference between colleges. Not because of the curriculum
as much as the other students who will set the pace of the class. Often the
same kid who could attend Ohio State at 14 could also attend Princeton at 18,
and that makes a difference even if the course titles are the same.

~~~
JackFr
>The courses which are typically boring for advanced kids are calculus, linear
algebra, differential equations, probability, statistics, combinatorics. Most
of an undergrad math degree usually falls into this bucket but it really
varies by university.

That's just not true. That's the freshman/sophomore curriculum. And there are
big differences between the diff eq, stats & linear algebra course which are
which are 'proof' vs. those which are 'practical'.

------
munmaek
As someone who went to college early (some community college classes at 14,
then university at 16), and was partially homeschooled (freshman-junior year),
I wouldn't recommend this.

Socializing is huge. I really cannot emphasize enough how important it is,
especially for younger kids. If you're really smart or gifted in a subject,
there are multiple other avenues to take that still let you hang out with
peers around your age.

~~~
paulpauper
So tired of people perpetuating this "kids need to go to school to become
socialized" myth. Socialization is about being with people who have similar
interests and you enjoy being around. This does not require a school setting.

~~~
jader201
Not sure how easy it is for children to organically socialize outside of a
school setting, especially in today’s digital age where socializing is
becoming an even rarer occasion as it is, and socializing outside of school
almost necessitates very intentional effort on multiple parties.

Not saying it’s not possible, but a school setting is definitely one very easy
organic path to socializing children.

~~~
JCharante
I would like to quote Aaron Swartz here on the subject of unschooling:

But won't my child become a unsocial hermit?! Interestingly, I've heard people
dislike unschooling not because they are afraid that their children will not
learn anything, but because they are afraid they will not develop "healthy
social relationships with their peers". Nothing could be farther from the
truth.

First, school is not a place to develop social relationships. In fact, it
seems designed to stifle them. There is hardly little time for socialization
provided, and it is discouraged for the majority of the school day. Any
student who does develop a true relationship with someone does it outside of
school: at a local meeting place (like a park or mall); when going over to a
friend's house; or after school. An unschooler can still do all of these
things.

Second, who decided that meaningful relationships could only be had with other
people who happen to be in roughly the same physical area at roughly the same
age? If anything, this is a severely restrained peer group. I have developed
my most meaningful relationships online. None of them live within driving
distance. None of them are about my own age. Even among those who I would not
count as "friends", I have met many people online who have simply commented on
my work or are interested by what I do. Through the Internet, I've developed a
strong social network -- something I could never do if I had to keep my choice
of peers within school grounds.

[https://web.archive.org/web/20101219193753/http://www.aarons...](https://web.archive.org/web/20101219193753/http://www.aaronsw.com/school/2001/04/05/)

~~~
mattrp
My kids are homeschooled and we consistently receive unsolicited feedback from
other adults that they rarely encounter children these days who can have a
conversation. I know that’s not true as I see plenty of conventionally
schooled kids possess the same skillset. In my view, all this means is that
the one nearly universal defense of conventional brick and mortar school -
“the socialization” - is totally bogus. I find it interesting the most parents
we met raise this defense rather than suggest superior learning environments
or something more related to - you know - school. But these days we hear less
and less the socialization argument and more the lament- ie Parents wishing
they had the time and/or skills to homeschool. And I really do not wish this
to seem judgmental but what do they think they already are doing with all the
activities and extra learning they are providing their kids? It would seem to
me many parents already are homeschooling they just don’t see it as such...

~~~
excessive
> they rarely encounter children these days who can have a conversation.

I think public schools do a pretty good job teaching kids to not speak openly
with adults.

------
jandrewrogers
I was one of these children. In hindsight, I think it damages your development
in many ways to the detriment of long-term outcomes. The unfortunate
environment and instability of my childhood living situation, which ultimately
derailed the "child prodigy" track, may have put me in a better position to
actualize my abilities despite the obvious negatives at the time. I knew a
couple other kids like me that stayed on that track, none had great outcomes.

The intense focus on academic learning does very little to prepare you for
being a productive human out in the real world, which is tacitly a part of the
environment normal kids grow up in. That many of these kids are dropped into
the real world even earlier than their age peers due to accelerated schooling
just compounds this.

One the upside, one elementary school that had no idea how to teach me sat me
in front of a computer and left me to my own devices. So I taught myself to
program.

~~~
d-d
It's tragic how being an outlier in kicks all these other processes into
action that tend to remove the person even further from society.

------
oonis
I was actually one of those incredibly young kids to finish school, and this
right here scares me. Nothing good came from the rush other than some local
publicity for a few months. I think it crippled my chances long term social
skills, and still going to therapy to try and catch up in any non-academic
sense.

~~~
surewhynat
Like anything else, social skills just takes practice. A lot of practice. I've
read probably over a hundred books on self-help, sales, influence, social
skills of all sorts. Ultimately the conclusion is that meeting people and
socializing can be scary, but, it's an irrational fear it gets better and
easier with practice. It's less about being right or saying the right thing
all the time, and more about having a quick reaction to what to say and
connect with people on an emotional level. It is all about practice. If you
work at a company that has a sales team and you ever wonder how they're so
good at being witty, funny, or being liked, just remember that it took them a
lot of practice. They're probably on the phone all day long, and I can
guarantee you that for most of them it was really hard at first too.
Eventually you just get better with people because your brain will adapt, so
just put yourself out there.

~~~
tw04
I think you're grossly underestimating the nuances of human interaction that
are developed from ages 2-10. I can tell you first hand watching a friends kid
who was home schooled trying to interact with his public school peers that
they are like a fish out of water. To suggest as an adult you just need "dive
in" to figure out social cue's is... unfairly simplified.

Can you potentially figure it out over a long period of time if you happen to
hook up with some folks that are very understanding and tolerant of "odd"
behavior? Sure... but you're talking years and years and years of interaction
to recoup those lost social skills.

~~~
invalidOrTaken
"It's easy, just use genetic programming."

Not so easy for the one under selection!

------
oneepic
I read TFA, I know he's planning on grad school, but it's funny to imagine him
taking a break and going into the workforce 9 years later at 18 years old:

<Company A> Hiring manager: _checks resume_ This guy graduated back in 2019
and hasn't had a job since? Nope, no way. I'm not interested. Probably some
lazy kid again.

<Company B> Interviewer: So I saw you graduated in 2019? What jobs have you
had since then? Any personal projects?

Kid: (incredulous)

~~~
swiley
Yeah it’s weird how easy it is to really screw yourself by doing things out of
the ordinary.

~~~
WrtCdEvrydy
At the age of 9 with a bachelor's, I can totally see taking this kid on as an
intern where we work. We can't exactly pay him, but I'll cut a check to his
parents.

~~~
rpmisms
You can pay his parents' LLC, who can then legally pay him in most states. I
did a LOT of contracting under 18 through my dad's LLC.

------
raphlinus
I _started_ college at 9. Didn't actually graduate at the time, basically
started doing computer projects on my own, then went back to school at 22 in
the PhD program at Berkeley. I haven't made a huge deal about this, but am
more open to talking about it now, especially if the experience helps other
people. Feel free to AMA.

~~~
anw
Thanks for offering the AMA (as well as the work on druid).

A few questions, and feel free to ignore, tangent, etc. any as you see fit:

1.) It seems you had a good educational upbringing from your parents. What did
they do to encourage and promote your ability to learn and understand?

2.) What things do you think children in your situation need to be made aware
of–whether it's to understand life, childhood, society, or themself–that may
be overlooked?

I'll leave it at that for now. I ask because as I plan for parenthood, I want
to make sure I can help my child understand the world better, but also be
socially well adapted for their peers, as well as feel good about their life
as they understand who they are in the world.

Thanks

~~~
raphlinus
My parents worked pretty relentlessly to make opportunities for me. My mom was
a professional librarian (still works a couple days a week), so we always had
tons of books around. My dad made sure there were computers around - we built
our first 8-bit kit when I was 6. Also he reached out to a lot of people who
could be resources, for example when Niklaus Wirth gave a talk on Oberon at a
University Maryland, he drove me out to see that.

I think (2) is a good question, but a huge one, I'm not sure what to say
within a HN comment. I know it's a cliche, but certainly that being smart
isn't everything, there's a lot more to life. The game-like recognition of
academic credentials and so on is not as meaningful in the real world as it
seems "in the bubble."

That said, what I think is a common thread of prodigies is a hunger and thirst
for knowledge, to learn things. I carry that with me today, and think it's
something to be nourished.

------
BrandoElFollito
My son at the age of 8 got diagnosed high precocity. He was showing the
intellectual capacities of a 16 yo.

Everyone was suggesting us to skip two or three classes and keep skipping
them.

I refused and kept him in his normal track because he was emotionally a 8 yo
kid,who spittle play with other children, who silly things and learn to be
social.

I let him read a lot, he was interested in science so we were discussing these
subjects a lot etc.

He is now 16, happy, doing silly things with his peers and otherwise attending
the 3rd high school in the country (being average+ there). I am everyday so
happy with our choice.

~~~
thewizardofaus
Excellent parenting. Kids need to be kids; no matter how intelligent :)

------
rowanG077
I'm from the Netherlands and this story is not entirely true. This kid has
been given a highly customized program where he didn't have to complete
massive amounts of coursework that normal students have to complete. While I
find it nice that a university provides this opportunity at the same time I
also find it a largely unfair to other bachelor students that have to go along
with the normal long program.

It's a 3 year program that I believe the average student could do in at least
half the time if they where give the same freedoms this boy has been given.

~~~
markus92
As someone who actually got the same degree at the same University as thd kid,
I can confirm this is true. The amount of coursework he skipped is relatively
high (every group project, some mandatory non-engineering subjects, at least
totalling to 45 ECTS on top of my head) and the freedom he got when doing
courses is unprecedented: no mandatory attendance and only oral examinations.

A 14 year old girl started the same program around 2006, she did do the full,
regular coursework.

------
dghughes
It's funny a deleted comment asked if geniuses ever achieve anything. My
cousin is supposedly a genius (siblings all have doctorates) yet works in a
laundromat.

I saw an article where one genius kid years ago was asked what he wanted to be
when he grew up, he said a gameshow host.

~~~
ping_pong
Educating a high-IQ child, especially a "profoundly gifted" child (above 145
IQ) is particularly challenging.

They get by with their raw intellect for most of school, and everyone
compliments them on how smart they are. But they never learn skills like how
to study, how to learn, how to persevere etc.

So once they hit their plateau, which everyone does, they don't know how to
get past it and then they give up. A kindergartener that can read like a grade
8 will work off her raw intellect until she gets to grade 8, but then once her
abilities max out, she won't have learned how to get past that, and that's
where she flames out.

It happens all the time, even to friends of mine in high school. One of my
gifted friends did well in high school but unfortunately flamed out in
spectacular fashion in freshman year and I haven't heard from her in 30 years,
even though we were extremely close and I reached out to her several times
over the years.

~~~
etagobla
I'm growing increasingly pessimistic about posts like this which claim to have
a nuanced understanding of [child development] but actually rely more on
personal feelings, anecdotes, and pseudoscience.

A smart girl who grows up in a school where everyone's getting pregnant at 14
might end up pregnant at 14. A smart kid who grows up in Flint might have to
deal with the same lead poisoning as everyone else, with potentially varying
symptoms. A smart kid whose parents are depressed in its adolescence might be
depressed.

There are many potential causes of burnout and it's extremely unhelpful to
assume that we know what's happening to these kids based on "I know a guy who
knows a guy". What you're essentially doing is framing a kid's failures as a
moral issue of perseverance and study skills when it might be, but it also
might not be.

Imagine being naturally competent but having a mental illness that invites the
public to inject their own personal biases.

~~~
ping_pong
No. My child and my wife scored as Profoundly gifted, going to a gifted school
and I myself went through gifted schools as well. I'm very familiar with this.

~~~
etagobla
Nice

------
dogprez
You may find it interesting that in Finland academics doesn't start until age
7. They emphasize play / arts in preschool and by age 15 outperform most
countries. What has this child lost by encouraging academic pursuits at such a
young age? Will they ever recover, and what was at risk by having them wait a
few years?

source: [https://www.npr.org/2014/03/08/287255411/what-the-u-s-can-
le...](https://www.npr.org/2014/03/08/287255411/what-the-u-s-can-learn-from-
finland-where-school-starts-at-age-7)

------
ngngngng
Would this be more common if more parents were aware it was a possibility? At
this risk of sounding arrogant, I'm fairly certain I could have kept up with
at least the average college student by the time I was 12 or 13.

Can you even enroll in university without a high school diploma? I certainly
might have if I had heard more stories like this.

~~~
coldtea
> _Would this be more common if more parents were aware it was a possibility?_

It should get less common, if more parents understand the developmental and
psychological damage to the child.

~~~
vkou
Devil's advocate: What about the developmental and psychological damage
inflicted by some (Not all) school environments?

I skipped a couple of grades, and started university at 16. By far the worst
time that I had, in my psychological development, was in middle school, when I
was among same-age peers. Children can be _incredibly_ cruel to eachother.

~~~
coldtea
> _Devil 's advocate: What about the developmental and psychological damage
> inflicted by some (Not all) school environments?_

Since everybody gets that, that's the same as the "developmental and
psychological damage inflicted" by society, or life in general.

In other words, a necessary evil. And perhaps not even evil, just something to
make people stronger for the real world, which is not all roses and love.

Children might be incredibly cruel to each other, but the stakes are much
lower. In adult life adults can be cruel to each other in much higher stakes
(cheating on you, taking advantage of you, stealing from you, abusing you,
beating you, looking down on you, and tons of other ways). And that doesn't
stop in a few years, like school does. Those cruelties can go on till one
dies...

------
djohnston
What ever happens to these kids? I read these articles once every few years,
and then .. Does the beurocracy of academia swallow them whole or is their
work no longer interesting once they hit 18? Or do they become average
academics?

~~~
kingbirdy
Ted Kaczynski was a child prodigy who enrolled in Harvard at 16 and graduated
in 3 years. He completed his post-grad at Michigan, won an award for his
thesis, and became the youngest math professor ever at UC Berkeley. He later
retired to a cabin in rural Montana and became the Unabomber.

~~~
slphil
It's important to point out that he was basically emotionally abused by
researchers (apparently paid in part by the government) and never really
recovered from it. Also that his manifesto (and later works, while in prison)
are genuine works of philosophy by a person who really shouldn't ever be let
out into society again. Kaczynski is a really interesting guy.

------
louwrentius
I really wish all the best upon this boy, but I wonder what becomes of these
gifted people.

From time to time, we see articles like this of a gifted children.

And then we never hear from them ever again.

It seems to me that having a gift is not synonymous with being (moderately)
successful.

Am I totally biased, wrong on this notion?

~~~
Finch2192
I have the same notions about such cases. Can anyone think of child prodigies
that went on to do notable things? (not including the unabomber)

~~~
spieglt
Just read this today: [https://medium.com/cantors-paradise/the-unparalleled-
genius-...](https://medium.com/cantors-paradise/the-unparalleled-genius-of-
john-von-neumann-791bb9f42a2d)

------
t17yog
Back in my day, I have graduated with M.Sc. at age of 17. Eleven years later,
still my country's record.

Ask me anything about later life of child prodigies etc.

~~~
jl6
Are you happy? Do you have rewarding work? Do you think your early degree came
at the cost of something else? If given the chance would you do it again?

~~~
t17yog
I'm happy. My work is fairly rewarding, though I have some small regrets I
wasn't able to pursue an academic career.

I don't regret doing this. I was a super-fast learner, and I don't think I
would be able to bear a full-length school+university circuit.

------
0x0aff374668
I speak to nine year old relatives: they are barely articulate simians.

What is it like talking to a 9 year old who has completed a 4-year EE degree?

Can you walk up to the kid and say, "Hey, solve this bridge/op-amp circuit's
transfer function?" or ask a humanities question, "What are the ethical
dilemmas inherent in an open discussion forum?"

I guess this is what it feels like to be a young-earth creationist: I simply
cannot wrap my head around a 9-year old being able to answer these question,
so like a creationist I choose to believe it is a fake.

~~~
birdyrooster
It illuminates how small the achievement of a bachelors degree is.

~~~
Alupis
What's more likely to be going on here is nobody wanted to stand in the way of
this kid with all the external pressure to keep pushing the narrative along.
Nobody wanted to be the person holding everything up by insisting the
submitted paper on Prison Inmate Rehabilitation Programs was very surface
level and lacked deep reflection and thoughtfulness.

There's just no way a 9 year old can handle serious research papers or form
complex arguments about social and global issues. Two things common in most
university general education programs.

Can a 9 year old be good at something specific? Sure... but I'd put my money
on this kid was pushed through for the narrative and not for the actual
coursework.

------
oldspleen
This kid will fulfill the job requirements! 10 years of work experience at the
age of 25 haha

------
nullbyte

      But Lydia (the mother) has her own theory. "I ate a lot of fish during the pregnancy"
    

New meta boys. Eat fish for an ez bachelors degree.

~~~
oneepic
And put your kid in swimming lessons ASAP for good measure.

------
jangid
On the contrary, there is another school of thought which says that the people
who started going to school late in life are much more resilient to difficult
situations in life.

When I look at earlier generation (I am 77 born), I notice that they are
happier than others in tough times. And the generation younger than me feels
irritated when the elders ask them to take it easy or ask them to ignore some
comments etc.

The academic competition is taking lives out of people.

~~~
pram
What are you even responding to?

------
rb808
I'm more interested in important stuff like if he can ride a bike or has any
friends.

------
scarejunba
Ha, I wonder if everyone was talking about how Terence Tao would be
irredeemably damaged psychologically for finishing college at 16. Well, it
certainly looks like he's doing well.

I wish this kid the best.

------
spandrew
What's the rush? You'll just get to the end game and have no one else to play
with, and probably frustrated with the lack of suitable raid members.

------
steven741
> However, unlike most 9-year-olds, he has already worked out what he wants to
> do with his life: develop artificial organs.

It always worries me to see news like this. I really don't see the benefit of
this type of lifestyle for a kid. Even assuming the best case scenario for him
it just seems like he's being forced into adulthood too early.

------
i4t
Wow, HN is flooded with geniuses. I'm not surprised.

~~~
whamlastxmas
I take a small pleasure in knowing smart people read my sometimes banal
comments

------
einpoklum
Good on him. But - there's always the question of how much of what he's doing
is his own individual will, and how much the result of his parents' influence.
Now, of course the former is naturally influenced by the latter, and people
can certainly end up pursuing what their parents has hoped, but it can be very
difficult emotionally if you "wake up" one day and notice your entire life is
invested in some course of progress you're not even sure you really want.
Doubly difficult if you get stuck or fail at something, and need to have a
strong emotional support for your sense of self-worth and purpose to fall back
on.

(This is partially from my own experience, although it's nothing like in the
story.)

------
pupppet
Yeah let's rush this kid into the workforce, who needs social skills anyway.

------
fenwick67
Would love to see a breakdown of how you do this from a bureaucracy
perspective.

------
seignall
Wow i so Envy's because this child can hit big leauge so early in that age. My
parents didn't have chance to educate me in higher school and University
because only middle school graduate.

------
rpmisms
If this was normalized, nobody would be panicking about the social
ramifications. Put him into a normal middle and high school. Let his brain
atrophy. Such is the price we pay.

I'm still a teenager, but I'm in the workforce, but I try to maintain some
level of "kid-ness". I still do stupid stuff with my friends, and make out in
parking lots. Both are possible, and if this guy is determined, he can skip a
lot of the boring parts of life and get to the good stuff.

------
woodandsteel
Here's my favorite prodigy, Kanade Sato.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYpFL08m5fQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYpFL08m5fQ)

In this video she is 11. When she was 5 she told her parents she wanted to
become a professional drummer. They got her an instructor and she started
performing publicly at age 6, and has since gone on to a very successful
career.

------
INTPenis
I once visited some friends in Brussels who worked for the EU parliament. Not
in a political capacity. While there I found out about children as young as 9
or 10 who already speak several european languages.

It's really interesting to see what growing up in the political capitol of
europe among children to diplomats can do to a kid.

~~~
lordnacho
I suspect this is orders of magnitude more common than kids graduating
university at 9.

For instance everyone in my extended family speaks 3 languages at least, some
4, due to historical circumstances. It's simply a question of exposure.

If you go to Fribourg in Switzerland there's a whole area where people speak
both French, Swiss German, and High German. And these days English as well.
The rest of the Swiss at least learn several languages in school, though
perhaps not using them constantly.

------
jrowley
I think the future of medicine is sympathetic engineers. It’s exciting to see
this little guy go that route!

------
calvinbhai
I'm so glad his parents are focussing on ensuring he gets to be a child.
degrees can be done later. not Childhood.

------
ourmandave
The default payment schedule on student loans is 10 years.

Is her's adjusted to 20 years?

------
agumonkey
I knew how to read at 5

------
stemsux
This just exposes how simple STEM degrees really are. No one is going to
finish a bachelors in literature at age 9.

~~~
WrtCdEvrydy
Of course they won't. Bachelors in Literature means you want to be a barista.

