
Apple, Hey, and the Path Forward - braythwayt
https://hey.com/apple/path/
======
eddieroger
I may be cynical to this whole thing, but to me this conclusion reads as Hey
acquiescing to Apple’s policies, and now the whole thing feels like a PR
stunt, particularly shaded by DHH’s documented “pick a fight” stance [1]. It
feels like we got played. It’s remarked as a compromise, but it doesn’t feel
that way to me.

1\. [https://m.signalvnoise.com/pick-a-fight-on-
twitter/](https://m.signalvnoise.com/pick-a-fight-on-twitter/)

~~~
dabeeeenster
Im not sure if they planned it, but I feel like they definitely played their
hand around using it as a marketing / publicity stunt

~~~
ksec
Agreed. You cant "plan" an App Store rejection when they did show they make
all the effort to comply with the App Store policy.

Again, Hey was really hyped, 70,000 on waiting list alone. They dont even need
any of these marketing to get customers. Name me an SaaS product that had
these kind of traction baring FAANG.

But this letter, the initial tone from DHH, and no further complains about App
Store really leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

------
oflannabhra
I know this will be unpopular on HN, but I actually appreciate Apple’s stance
here as a user.

I don’t want to give developers my billing info. I even have to use a special
throwaway number at Home Depot. There’s no way I’d trust hundreds of
developers with that info when I don’t even trust a F500 company.

I don’t want to download apps that literally do nothing except kick me out to
a website for a billing transaction, especially a recurring one with no way in
app to cancel that subscription. If I delete the app, I want to get promoted
to cancel the subscription.

Apple has some major issues with the App Store (search, discovery, business
models, % cut, just as a few), but in this case I actually agree with their
principles.

~~~
elldoubleyew
I think they should just go with the Twitch (Amazon) strategy. Allow for IAP
for subscriptions, but just factor in the cost of Apples % cut. Still offer
the option of paying you directly on your website or whatever for the
$99/year, but for people that really want to subscribe through the app they
can pay $150/year and have the subscription cancel when they delete the app or
whatever

~~~
thayne
Apple doesn't allow that. Your in-app prices have to match your out-of-app
prices. Which would be fine if the cut was like 1-2%. But 30% is a lot.

~~~
ksec
I dont that is the case any more. At least we have multiple reports that Apple
allows that. ( Likely due to legal requirement )

~~~
thayne
If they allow it now, it's either fairly recent (past couple of years), or
they are inconsistent about it.

~~~
sgerenser
They’ve allowed it since 2011:
[https://appleinsider.com/articles/11/06/09/apple_backs_down_...](https://appleinsider.com/articles/11/06/09/apple_backs_down_on_in_app_purchasing_rules_allows_lower_prices_for_out_of_app_purchases)

------
nkozyra
If you're at the size and visibility of Hey, you can strike these kinds of
compromises. This isn't particularly surprising. The real issue is the smaller
guys, who are forced with a "take it or leave it" roadblock from app stores.

You'd hope the bigger players - particularly ones who have hit these
roadblocks - to become advocates for developers. Perhaps working in some sort
of ongoing developer agency/evangelist fashion would be good for all involved.

~~~
braythwayt
Lots of people want the walled garden abolished, but it would be HUGE if Apple
simply created a set of guidelines—no matter how draconian—and then applied
them equally and transparently to everyone, big or small.

If the guidelines are transparent and fairly applied, it's up to you as a
developer whether to play their game. But it is ridiculous that small
developers are literally spinning the Wheel of Fortune every time they submit
an app that does exactly what Google, Netflix, Amazon, &c. are doing.

And speaking as a user, I bought a mail app called Spark. It's great. But now
I have to worry, what if Apple decides that the next release breaks their
rules? What if they pull the app entirely?

Capricious and unjust application of the rules is bad for users as well as
developers.

~~~
aabbcc1241
Do you really need an app on iPhone to mail?

~~~
coronadisaster
what can you use besides an app to get your mail on iPhone?

~~~
dafoex
A web browser? Aside for a few apps that provide significant advantages over
the web version (or those that force you to use the app even in "requst
desktop version" mode), I use a browser for everything. Hell, even though the
YouTube app was preinstalled on my phone, I still used the mobile site because
I just found the experience better.

~~~
coronadisaster
a browser is an app... but I try to do like you and avoid random and single-
purpose apps because they are riskier.

------
adrianhon
I'm glad Hey now has a future on the App Store – it's better than not existing
at all, but the whole episode has been absurd.

 _This new version introduces a new free option for the iOS app. Now users can
sign up directly in-app for a free, temporary, randomized @hey.com email
address that works for 14 days. Think of it like a temporary SIM card you buy
when traveling. Or for when you don’t want to give out your real email
address, like a short term “for sale” listing, like Craigslist does it._

This, in particular, is just ridiculous. A whole new feature, designed and
developed in haste over a weekend, simply to satisfy Apple. But then we've had
to do that ourselves in our own apps, and no doubt thousands of other devs
have their own stories.

~~~
scarface74
Why is it ridiculous? Who wants an app that you can’t do anything with when
you download it?

Even Office for iOS lets you view documents without paying and then you need a
subscription to edit them.

Name one retailer that lets you hock your product in their store without
paying anything?

~~~
paulgb
> Name one retailer that lets you hock your product in their store without
> paying anything?

I realize that Apple brands it as a store, but analogies to other "stores"
don't really make sense. 90% of apps are free[1], so you could similarly ask
"name one retailer who gives away 90% of their products for free".

To me, the App "Store" is part of the product you get when you buy an iPhone.
When free apps are distributed through it, they aren't getting "free"
placement, you (the iPhone customer) are getting the service you paid for when
you bought the phone.

[1] [https://www.businessofapps.com/data/app-
statistics/](https://www.businessofapps.com/data/app-statistics/)

~~~
ebg13
> _90% of apps are free_

Is that free free or free up front with recurring revenue because your
engagement is profitable for them via advertising or in-app purchases or both?
Because those are not the same.

------
paulgb
On the first read this seemed like a conclusion of the story, but on a second
read it sounds like this is another chess move. 1.0.2 was approved (to Hey's
surprise, and likely just to ease some PR/legal pressure), but 1.0.3 is still
pending. Hey's approach here seems a bit like lawyering the rules to me -- I
could see how temporary email addresses can be useful, but the feature seems
to mainly exist to appease Apple rather than users. I hope it works for them,
but I'm not holding my breath.

~~~
elicash
I agree it's a chess move. But it's also a way for both sides claim victory.

Apple doesn't want to change its rules; Hey doesn't want to change how users
sign up.

I guess I'm saying I'm more optimistic this will settle the dispute. But I
agree, the feature is more aimed at Apple than users.

------
i_don_t_know
The cynic in me thinks this whole thing was a publicity stunt. I find it hard
to believe that they hadn't thought of offering an in-app free trial. I
wouldn't be surprised if they had it implemented all along in a separate
branch and just waited a few days to create a storm.

~~~
manojlds
That could have been the case if the app had been rejected. It was approved,
and Apple says it was a mistake that it was approved. And that point, they
can't know that bug fix updates would be rejected.

------
slipheen
I think Apple is overreaching on this whole thing, but it feels somewhat
disingenuous to argue that they did what Apple/Phil asked for.

He asked for a basic version that people can use without their service, and
instead they implemented a variation on a 14 day demo.

Then they're posting publicly saying "We did what Apple asked for", without
clearing this new solution (which isn't really what Apple asked for).

To be clear, I think Apple shouldn't be demanding a 30% cut here at all! But
this article feels like they're presenting their solution publicly in order to
try to leverage Apple into accepting it.

~~~
drewbug01
> He asked for a basic version that people can use without their service

To be clear, Apple asked them to do something that they surely must know isn't
possible. Hey specifically doesn't offer IMAP/POP access because they layer
enough features on top of email that IMAP and POP simply can't support.

For the same reasons they don't offer IMAP/POP access, they couldn't "just"
add the "bring your own server" feature that Apple asked for. The Hey iOS app
isn't an IMAP/POP client with fancy chrome; it's designed specifically to work
with Hey's servers and nothing else.

Even if they shoe-horned an IMAP/POP client into the app to try and satisfy
Apple, I think the user experience would end up far worse than what they've
just implemented this weekend; and likely would violate other provisions of
the App store.

------
pier25
I'm glad they found a solution that was satisfactory for Apple, but this
random email thing seems forced and useless.

If you end up signing up on HEY will the random address keep working?

Otherwise why use an address that will disappear no matter what. Obviously you
can't use it to sign up on anything, or tell people to contact you at that
address. It would only work for sending test emails between HEY and your other
email addresses. I mean, who's going to do that? Is this really better for the
end user?

------
rvz
Interesting outcome for both Apple and Hey. However, the threat still exists
when Apple can potentially announce a similar service to hey.com somewhere in
the future, which will be a kick in the teeth to everyone. Would that be
considered as a win? I don't ever underestimate Apple's strategic plans to
maintain control of the ecosystem and compete with your own apps.

Seriously. Apple 'really' is not your friend.

------
merty
Since the whole issue boiled down to "providing some functionality to users
who saw the app in the App Store and downloaded" and completely moved on from
the initial IAP discussion, I believe a good compromise for all parties would
be to allow developers to submit such applications but simply unlist them,
making them only discoverable via search or deep links.

------
dustinmoris
Just downloaded the app and there’s no sign of a free tier whatsoever. I can’t
do anything with it, absolute shite if I didn’t know that it’s still in closed
preview.

~~~
donarb
They just submitted version 1.0.3 this morning, they needed the weekend to
implement it. It'll probably be released sometime today.

------
satvikpendem
I think having a free trial is a good idea regardless of in app versus out of
app purchases. That it had to be done so hastily is unfortunate, though.

------
HHalvi
_Quick Wins_ have never helped anyone in the long run but they fool you into
thinking you can go on with it forever.

When the entire debacle started I was suddenly an optimist on:

\- Mobile vs Web debate forcing gate keepers on giving equally competent
choices for users & makers alike.

\- Apple relooking and rethinking their 70-30% strategy

\- Small & Indie Developers openly talking about the problems being at the
mercy of Apple and Google's stores.

------
dsalzman
"And Phil, we set aside an amazing @hey.com address for you. Free for life,
our gift to you. Lemme know."

hmmm. Anyone guess what that could be?

~~~
nazka
chick-phil@hey.com?

------
manojlds
So Android users have to continue to clamour for the invite? If they had done
the same for Android it would have been reasonable.

------
toyg
So, in the end... is there a link or something, in the app, about upgrading to
the paid option?

~~~
cypressious
No, that's against the guidelines.

~~~
toyg
So the experience of someone who doesn't know anything about HEY, i.e. what
Schiller cares about, is:

\- download the app

\- use the free service for 14 days

\- see their emails disappear on day 14

Doesn't seem like a great xp. Wouldn't it be better to be told straight away
"you need an account for this"?

Also, Schiller has now instigated a wonderful tool for trolling and
harassment.

~~~
latortuga
I'm sure Hey will .... email you _wink_ a link to sign up for a paid account.
If they link to the pricing page in the app, that's a no-no, but if they EMAIL
it to you, and you just so happen to be using an email client that can display
that link, then that's okay.

~~~
toyg
In Italy that's called _fatta la legge, trovato l 'inganno_ \- as soon as the
law is created, the loophole is found.

Apple should just do the decent thing.

------
chj
Still not clear if this is a special deal for hey or for all developers as
well.

~~~
scarface74
There is nothing special about this deal. I can name of list of a dozen of
apps that are “reader apps” - view only that force you to subscribe out of the
store. Even the major apps from Adobe and MS offer some type of functionality
without subscribing.

------
mhaberl
This is great news Apple and Hey managed to find a way to go foward, but I
wonder would Hey get this far if it was not backed up by Jason and DHH

~~~
zepto
What are you talking about? They complied with the guidelines.

~~~
mhaberl
Having a bad day?

I am referring to communication with "Apple’s Senior Vice President of
Worldwide Marketing" after which Hey did an implementation of a functionality
which clearly is not a "basic functionality", but a 14 day demo. After that
the app is approved.

Would some random developer really get such treatment from Apple?

~~~
zepto
Probably not an SVP, however I have had Apple engineers proactively call me to
discuss ways to make non-compliant apps fit their guidelines, and that’s
without me complaining at all - they initiated it following the rejection.

------
samtimalsina
I don't have a horse in the race, but watched this closely. The whole
situation put Apple in a bad light, and Basecamp got free publicity. I
hesitate to say it was planned, as DHH likes to mention he's not THAT smart.
Regardless of the drama, HEY the actual product, looks like it does a lot of
things right.

~~~
j0hnml
I agree on the free publicity part. Don’t think I would’ve given this product
this much of my attention if it weren’t for this whole debacle. The free
publicity in this case is likely to turn out to be a net positive for
Basecamp.

