
Blind man shocks researchers with what he sees. - felipellrocha
http://seedmagazine.com/content/article/seeing_in_the_dark/
======
KingMob
The article is pretty light on the details, so I'll try to add to it. In my
prior career as a cognitive neuroscientist, I analyzed an fMRI data set on
blindsight patient GY, and read up on the blindsight literature at the time.

The neurons in the retina don't go straight to the occipital (primary visual)
cortex; they all synapse onto the thalamus first. From there, the vast
majority of exiting neurons go on to occipital cortex, but a few percent go
off to other regions, such as the superior colliculus, amygdala, MT and FEF.

It's been shown in diffusion studies that people with damage in thalamus or
prior to it, don't show blindsight effects, while people with post-thalamic or
occipital damage can.

Now, the really interesting part is that, these non-occipital signals are
enough to help people perform tasks at above-chance levels, but not enough for
them actually be aware. Nobody knows for sure why. Conscious awareness is one
of the biggest unsolved mysteries of neuroscience. Top candidates are
information integration theory, higher-order thought theories, and signal-
detection-based theories.

~~~
ktizo
After hearing about those parasitic brain bugs that you can catch from cats I
started to wonder if conscious awareness could be merely the collective
experience of some kind of bug we caught that has just hitched along for the
ride and that hasn't actually really got much of a control over anything
really, but just believes that it is the creature it is inhabiting, because it
is a bit stupid. Perhaps you could cure someone of it and not even be able to
tell the difference. These are the kind of thoughts that keep me awake at
night ;)

~~~
stephth
That's funny, I had the almost same sci-fi scenario thoughts during one night.
The thought of the nature of our minds being defined by a disease that we
caught at some point in time and now completely identify with it, that that
disease made us forget our true nature. It's pretty great as a sci-fi
scenario, but I now believe it has a deep truth to it.

I later discovered the writings of Eckhart Tolle. According to him, we are
diseased in the sense that we identify with our mind/ego, instead of realizing
what it actually is: a tool. Part of the problem is we often don't know what
exists underneath. We are 100% convinced we are our mind. But obviously we're
not - if we were, we wouldn't be able to observe it. Once we realize we're not
our mind, we're free of its control. Until we do, we're in a way, severely
ill. We're actually not disfunctional in our true nature - but we're
unenlightened.

At least that's what Eckhart Tolle says. I personally find it disarmingly
logical - and reasonably easily provable within my perception, not to mention
deeply liberating/changing. Finding out you can stop your thoughts and not
only still be aware, but become the most aware you can be, that's quite a
doozy of a realization.

~~~
henrikschroder
> It's pretty great as a sci-fi scenario

I've actually read a short SciFi novel with that very premise, but I can't for
the life of me remember the name of it. Something about the other sentient
lifeforms in the galaxy not requiring sleep and being able to breathe cyanide,
but humans were unique in that we needed to sleep, and that was because we
were all infected by some sort of mind parasite that now saw its chance to
expand to other lifeforms.

~~~
Steuard
You're probably thinking of "Hostess", by Isaac Asimov:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostess_%28short_story%29>

~~~
henrikschroder
Yes, that was it! Thanks!

------
robomartin
Here's my story: Three (or was it four?) day non-stop coding stint to get a
robot ready for a conference. No sleep at all. Almost non-stop coding and the
usual coffee+sugar+pizza binge. Got on a plane to go to the conference and
continued coding in flight. Got to the hotel, checked in and decided to get
some sleep. I woke up about three or four hours later. I started to hear a
nearly perfect 1KHz tone as my field of view slowly (30 sec?) faded to full
bright white. By this time I was sitting on the bathroom floor: I could only
hear this tone and all I saw was a bright white light. Somehow I kept my cool
and could, also somehow, navigate the room. Over the following few minutes the
tone started to go away and my field of view returned to normal. Freaked the
crap out of me. No permanent damage that I could identify. Now I keep my
overnighters to just one night, only if there's absolutely not choice at all.

~~~
its_so_on
I was afraid your story was one of a stroke. we should have a good thread on
sleep deprivation. (e.g. someone should submit a story.)

visual hallucations are pretty standard after a certain period of time that
isn't even so long. (i.e. I would get them around, say, the 28 hour mark from
when I last woke up and started staying up by pulling an all-nighter. So if I
get up at 7 every day but then simply not go to sleep one night but try to
start the next day - by 11 AM it's hard not to hallucinate. In case you get up
later the following is equivalent: If you get up at 11 every morning after
calling it a night at 3 am or so, then if one night you don't sleep at all
then working past 11 am and on by 3 PM you will be very out of it and may
easily hallucinate.)

I'm very skeptical whether there is any amount of productivity to be had what-
so-ever as for me, personally, it would easily take me 2 minutes to do 30
seconds of (any kind of) work at the end of that time, even moving a box from
one place to another or whatever. So I'm very skeptical how a 3-4 hour nap at
22 hour mark could possibly not make up for lost time after waking up.

going on 3 hours of sleep each night for several days (e.g. 2-3) is possible
and easy.

like I said, it would make an interesting thread and someone should submit a
story on this subject (sleep deprivation and whether it's even worth working
after a certain time mark).

as for your story, it sounds like a simple dream/waking dream. it's really
hard to tell dream and non-dream apart under conditions of sleep deprivation.

~~~
dkarl
There doesn't seem to be a sharp line between sleep and wakefulness. I once
fell asleep while driving and was awakened by something I saw. It's an odd
sensation to be woken up by something you _see_ instead of by something you
hear or feel. I had fallen asleep with my eyes open but was staying upright in
the driver's seat, maintaining my speed and staying on the road. It was an
extremely frightening experience, because I was very keenly aware of not being
conscious a few seconds earlier, and having no sense of how much time had
passed. I couldn't even remember what I saw, because duh, I was unconscious
when I saw it. It freaked me out so much that even fifteen years later I think
about it every time I get the slightest bit sleepy behind the wheel.

A few times in extreme states of sleep-deprivation, I've been lying down or
slouched on the couch and realized, after being startled into getting up
suddenly, that my memory of what I had been thinking about was fading away
just like a dream. My eyes were open the whole time, and unlike when I was
driving, I was conscious of seeing and having a consciously driven train of
thought. Yet in some way I was asleep, so my mind let my memories slip away as
if they were dreams.

~~~
nessus42
Ducks and dolphins routinely sleep one hemisphere at a time. It doesn't seem
improbable that humans might also from time to time.

~~~
abeppu
So, this is maybe a silly question, but methodologically, how did researchers
establish that? Did they actually somehow attach and keep EEG contacts on an
animal that moves around and lives submerged in salt water? 'Cuz that sounds
awesome.

~~~
nessus42
[http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1333/can-one-
side-o...](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1333/can-one-side-of-a-
ducks-brain-sleep-while-the-other-half-is-awake)

------
andrewcooke
i've experienced something (vaguely) similar. i once had a nasty accident on a
bike. initially, i was ok. a car had stopped and the driver asked me how i
was, and i answered that i was in pain, but otherwise fine. then, as the
passer-by started talking to someone else, i had to call out to him "excuse me
- but i can't see". because i couldn't see. so he put me in his car (he was
actually an extremely nice chap - i found out later he also took my ruined
bike back to where i was staying; i never found him to say thank-you) and
drove me to hospital. on the way there i started to realise that i could see
shapes - although i couldn't actually "see" anything, i could make out moving
cars (imagine white cars against a white background, but somehow you can see
them moving). and then my sight started to return, first at the centre of my
vision, and then spreading out. i related all this to him as we drove, and
what with the blood dripping from various places, i suspect he thought i was
delirious. anyway, eventually everything returned to normal and i was checked
by a gorgeous doctor (i was 18 or so at the time...) and sent home to rest,
but went to work because i was working away from home and no-one i knew would
be at the house i was staying at. at work they were impressed by the various
bandages and sat me in a corner til end-of-day. never experienced anything
similar since, although i do get (painless) migraines from time to time (like,
once a year or so - i can't see properly, but it's not interesting).

~~~
naner
_i do get (painless) migraines from time to time_

What is a painless migraine?

~~~
beagle3
One kind is called "visual migraine" or "ocular migraine". A simulation can be
seen here <http://www.knownjohnson.com/?p=73/> . I tried to explain this 15
years ago to a doctor, without success - and then one day I read about it in a
website, and apparently, I'm not crazy and also not alone in the world with
this phenomenon.

See also: Restless Leg Syndrome.

------
Alex3917
You experience these same sort of phenomena in meditation: things that we
normally think of as requiring consciousness reveal themselves as being
controlled autonomically, and you also gain conscious control over autonomic
functions. It's pretty cool, and it starts happening within the first few
days, it's not something that takes years to experience or whatever.

~~~
chao-
Since you brought up meditation, a question I never quite find the right
moment to ask:

What is it? I mean, that question sounds so simplistic as to be inane, but
bear with me: I have had absolutely no interaction with anyone who meditates,
beyond observing them at a distance with casual skepticism.

Alternative questions to "What is it?" would be "What is its purpose?" and
"What is it like?" Having gone to my university's weekly meditation sessions
twice and simply fallen asleep, I used to assume it was just that: people
sleeping while sitting upright. The idea of a third state the system of
sleeping/awake seems utterly alien to me.

EDIT: Having just done the obvious and skimmed over the Wikipedia article for
Meditation, it's far more broad than my question here. Obviously "to meditate
on something" is to ponder/think about it, sometimes while moving or working.
I'm asking in regard to a the more specific, often motionless, act that
Alex3917 seems to be describing.

~~~
Cushman
I worry that my fellow commenters may be glossing over the really important
aspects of meditation. Here's my understanding:

There are many different types of and approaches to meditation, but the
essence of all of them is mindfulness. The concept is of being "present"-- not
living in the past, or the future, but experiencing what is happening right
here, right now.

This is a subtly but importantly different idea from that of ignoring or
quieting your thinking. You _are_ your thoughts; you _can't_ ignore them.
(Don't think of an elephant.) However, your thoughts are not all that is
happening to you, and most of the time your thoughts serve only to distract
you from what is actually going on.

So, for example, one of the most basic forms of meditation is simply to be
aware of your breathing. You are breathing one hundred percent of the time,
but you are almost never _aware_ of the fact that you are. So take one moment,
right now, close your eyes, and breathe. Feel how your chest expands and
contracts. Feel how the air flows through your nostrils.

Thoughts _will_ occur, and it's important that you _don't_ push them away, or
try to ignore them, because you _can't_ \-- even very experienced meditators
cannot. Instead, recognize that thought is occurring, be aware of it, but
don't dwell on it. Let the thought exist, notice that it is happening, and let
it drift away as you return your attention to your breathing.

You will find your mind drifting to more and more intrusive thoughts: The
things you're stressed about, worried about, upset about. This is not wrong;
it is what is happening to you right now. Be aware of it, let it pass into you
just like the air through your nostrils, and let it pass out as you return to
breathing.

If you really attempt this, you will notice at least a brief moment where you
feel suddenly, absolutely aware of who you are, where you are, what it is that
you are experiencing _right now_ in a way that you may never have felt before.
If you've never meditated before, it is very likely that you'll be terribly
upset by this awareness of all of the unpleasant thoughts and feelings that
you've been ignoring, trying to push under the surface and bury inside
yourself. Remember that it is okay to cry. Let the emotions happen, just the
way they are. You can't make them go away. But they don't control you; once
you've felt them, it's okay to return your attention to your breathing.

I hope I don't make this sound easy-- it's incredibly difficult. But over
time, with practice, you'll find this state of presence and awareness easier
and easier to achieve, and that it's no longer necessary to close your eyes or
be still to feel this. You'll be able to experience exactly what it feels like
to walk down the street, or to eat a meal, in a way you never have before.
You'll find yourself no longer being ruled by the emotions you've tried to
suppress for so long. You will be angered, or saddened, or terrified, and you
will be able to let those feelings happen inside of you, really experience
them, and continue with what you are doing.

 _That_ is meditation.

(My references: My mother is a clinical psychiatrist who is trained in
mindfulness-based cognitive therapy, which is, believe it or not, a clinically
validated treatment for many serious mental illnesses, but especially
depression and anxiety. I've used these techniques myself to overcome major
recurring depression.)

~~~
Alex3917
In retrospect this is probably a much better explanation than my comment,
which focuses on what you experience while being present. But yeah, the goal
in most types of meditation is to be present, rather than experiencing the
different 'states' that come up. In fact, you are basically supposed to ignore
them. The reason my comment was focusing on them I guess is because that's how
I got onto the topic, in relation to sightedness being separate from
consciousness.

~~~
Cushman
Yeah, I tried to avoid saying that you were wrong, because you're not-- in
practice, meditation does result in a quieter state of mind, and does enable
altered forms of consciousness. It's just that's not the core, and for someone
who's never meditated before a lot of the advice about what meditation _feels
like_ (clear your mind, ignore conscious thought, etc.) is likely to be quite
counterproductive. The first and (in my opinion) most important step is to
just _be_.

------
wwwtyro
This is so bizarre. It's as though our conscious selves share an existence
with an independently operating human animal. The one that flinches.

~~~
beagle3
If you want to get your mind blown about the "other" one, read "The emergence
of consciousness in the breakdown of the bicameral mind" by Julian Jaynes. It
argues, e.g. that schizophrenia is a disease in which communication with that
other self becomes an internal (voiced) dialogue that sounds.

~~~
zenon
Jaynes' ideas occasionally surface in science fiction. Two examples are Snow
Crash by Neal Stephenson and Aristoi by Walter Jon Williams. The last one is
an underappreciated gem IMHO.

------
sp332
Very interesting but the news is over 3 years old.
[http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-12/cp-
bmw121508....](http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-12/cp-
bmw121508.php)

~~~
ars
The concept is actually 30 to 40 years old.

------
stcredzero
My ability to solve difficult problems in coding and in Computer Science is
much like the blindsight described in the article. I look at a problem for
awhile then go away and do something in the shower. I might be relaxing or in
the shower, and the answer will pop into my head, as if from nowhere.

The older I get the more I think we should think of our talents as
"superpowers." They are somewhat like bolt-ons. We shouldn't let them define
us. We should have some depth of character beyond that.

EDIT: And we should use them "only for good."

~~~
nyellin
Elizabeth Gilbert made that same point in a TED talk.

<http://www.ted.com/talks/elizabeth_gilbert_on_genius.html>

------
frankseidank
"Similar abilities have been observed in monkeys, but TN’s is the first study
of these abilities in humans."

Maybe it's not exactly the same thing, but quite a while ago (10-15 years) I
read in a book about the brain of a patient who had similar damage in one half
of the brain. Both his eyes worked, but he couldn't see on one side, and when
a piece of paper was held up into his "blind spot", reading "plese stand up",
he stood up, making up a rationalization for it (like "my leg felt sleepy", "I
thought I heard something", etc.) I'm not even sure if that was just about one
patient, maybe it was several. But at any rate, I knew this ages ago, by
randomly picking it up from a book from the library -- so how is this a
surprise?

I get that this is the first dedicated study of that stuff, but it surely it
isn't complete news?

------
kellishaver
That's fascinating. It makes sense, in an odd way. His eyes are still
functioning, but the brain can't process the incoming data, so things get
remapped to areas of the brain responsible for other types of functions.

I have a bit of the opposite problem. I have a mild form of Charles Bonnet
syndrome. The visual hallucinations I experience aren't extremely frequent or
complex. I may have one every few days to every few weeks, and they usually
only last for a couple of seconds. Mostly I just see abstract shapes (usually
the same shape - kind of a glowing horseshoe). Once or twice, I have seen
chairs.

Here's a great TED talk on it:
[http://www.ted.com/talks/oliver_sacks_what_hallucination_rev...](http://www.ted.com/talks/oliver_sacks_what_hallucination_reveals_about_our_minds.html)

~~~
Sharlin
_His eyes are still functioning, but the brain can't process the incoming
data, so things get remapped to areas of the brain responsible for other types
of functions._

Actually, as KingMob explains in [1], the mappings are already there in
healthy persons as well. This is the "lizard brain" - the original neural
pathways transmitting visual information to various subconscious modules that
evolved hundreds of millions of years before the relatively new invention of
the mammalian cerebral cortex. As evolution rarely throws out anything that
works, the archaic modules are still there, functioning, and in this patient's
case, only the more recent higher-level capacities were destroyed.

[1] <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4319700>

~~~
kellishaver
That's awesome, fascinating stuff - thank you!

------
zenon
The novel Blindsight by Peter Watts is partially about what blindsight and
other similar phenomena can tell us about conciousness. If you like the
article, and speculative fiction in general, you'll probably like that novel
(although the ending is horribly bleak).

------
outworlder
I am surprised Peter Watts' story wasn't mentioned yet. The story gets its
name from this condition.

<http://www.rifters.com/real/Blindsight.htm>

------
VJayK
Well, here is a partial explanation. The eyes developed as a sense organ
attached to the midbrain and only later were wired to the forebrain. The
midbrain retains complex circuits that we use in our reflexive behaviour. We
use these circuits more than we would suspect eg while walking along corridors
or while turning away from an object thrown towards the face. A stroke in the
forebrain would leave these neural pathways intact. Hence the sight without
concious vision.

Of course in reality these things are much more complex...

------
lifty
I'm reading through "Consciousness: a very short introduction" and one of the
points that the author makes is that these kind of proccesses(object
detection) are distributed throughout the brain, and that we have specilized
"circuits" for most if not all common tasks we perform on a daily basis. This
seems counter intuitive to me, and I presume most people, because it feels
that these kind of proccesses are conscious and under my control, when
apparently they are not.

------
andyjohnson0
HN readers might enjoy the science fiction novel Blindsignt by Peter Watts
[1]. Alien contact in deep space with some interesting speculation on
neuroscience and consciousness. I enjoyed it a lot.

[1] (Contains plot spoilers)
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blindsight_(science_fiction_nov...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blindsight_\(science_fiction_novel\))

------
jfno67
This subject was presented in a book I read recently, along with many
interesting aspect of how our mind works. The book is definitely worth
reading, it was "Thinking, Fast and Slow" by Daniel Kahneman.

I wonder if it can explain the fact that I don't fall or bump into obstacles
when I walk and read at the same time...

------
awolf
I think this man's signal to noise ratio for playing high stakes poker could
be a sizable advantage. It would be very interesting to see him play.

Making good reads is mainly an input problem. There's so much to pay attention
to that it interferes with noticing the important things. Tuning into emotions
and mannerisms while also tuning out of visual noise could give this man
exceptional situational awareness that's also free of his conscious mind's
biases.

------
boyter
If you want more information about this Through The Wormhole Season 2 Episode
5 "Is there a sixth sense" explored this and presented some theories on how it
occurs. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Through_the_Wormhole#Season_2>

The show is excellent and presents a lot of science topics in and interesting
and understandable way. Highly suggested viewing.

------
chasingtheflow
The video of him walking down the obstacle course (!!) is pretty amazing and
can be found at the bottom of this page
[http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982208...](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982208014334)

------
sdoering
Interestingly, this report comes from 2008 and is presented by SEED as
something totally new.

The original findings were published in Current Biology (2008; 24:
R1128-R1129).

That said, it is quite fascinating, non the less.

------
ThomPete
<Off Topic

Anyone here used to be a subscriber to seed magazine the printed version?

I paid way back and never received a single issue from them.

------
wtvanhest
If sight is independent of visual awareness does that mean we should be
searching for a new test for drivers?

------
cheddarmint
This would suck but it sounds a lot better than being straight-up blind.

------
lessnonymous
"So there I was .. installing some blinds ..

------
idaniboy
he's almost a zombie

------
sampsonjs
Without reading the article, let me take a guess: Attackships on fire off the
shoulder of orion, c-beams glittering in the dark near Tannhäuser Gate?

