
Kevin Rose on the sources of Digg's problems - beagledude
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6120067/Kevin-TWiT.m4v
======
redthrowaway
Seems pretty reasonable to me. It might not have been what everyone wanted to
hear, but the truth of the matter is that there are a lot more mediocre
developers out there than outstanding ones, and if you're not careful with
your hiring, you'll wind up with a lot more of the former than the latter.

It seems Kevin wasn't blaming any problems on his team, but rather on their
lack of attention in selecting that team. Whether he's able to select better
will soon be seen, but I take his comment as more of a _mea culpa_ than
anything.

~~~
ojbyrne
I've got a fairly extensive background in software development and management
and the most striking thing at digg was there was no attempt at what's
colloquially known as "management," at least up until 2007 when I left.

There was no such thing as a performance evaluation.

The founder and CEO mostly worked on side projects or spent time "taking money
off the table."

There were lots of parties and social events.

They could have evaluated mediocre developers, put them on performance
improvement plans, and if they failed to improve, fire them. They were too
busy.

In the podcast, I didn't hear any mention of what I'm talking about. I heard
"we hired too many B and C people."

~~~
alexbosworth
I interviewed with Digg in the early days (not sure you remember me but with
you Owen)

I think while finding big successes can be hard, dealing with them once you
have them can be even harder.

Kevin was pretty quick to realize that Twitter/Facebook were going to eat
Digg's chances of become a huge company, but it wasn't trivial to figure a
response to that. It's a valid question: should Digg have even tried to grow
grow grow or just been happy owning their area?

Engineering gripes I think were mostly focused on acquisition and investment
attractiveness. There probably is also some elitism in the Valley: if you
don't have the right pedigree and look the way that fits what people expect
you don't deserve success

~~~
chris11
IMO Twitter/Facebook are not directly competing with digg. Digg was a news
aggregator, Twitter/Facebook aren't.

~~~
protomyth
I pretty much switch from Digg / RSS to twitter as a news aggregator once
sufficient sites got twitter accounts to follow. I don't think I am a unique
case.

------
marcamillion
I think 'thrown under the bus' is a bit extreme.

He was simply telling it as he saw it.

They hired people that turned out to be not as good as he would have liked,
and that was a major issue that cascaded.

I don't see anything wrong with that.

~~~
ojbyrne
No offense, but Kevin wouldn't know a good coder from a bad coder if his life
depended on it. He can't read code, is essentially innumerate, and mostly just
plays a techie on TV. To be blunt, he's blaming just about everybody else but
himself. A college dropout who couldn't write a line of code to save his life
talking about "B and C" players is offensive.

~~~
jshen
One doesn't need to know how to code to know if a programmer delivers or is
always making excuses.

~~~
kingkilr
One does need to be a programmer to know if they're delivering at the expense
of absurd amounts of technical debt.

~~~
jshen
only in the short term. In the long run that will become clear to an
intelligent person.

~~~
kingkilr
Is there before or after you've taken on VC, planned a project roadmap, and
realized there was no way you'd hit your goals?

~~~
jshen
we all know that software is an iterative process and that our goals, scopes,
and deadlines go through a lot of change as we iterate. We know this is simply
how it is.

Why then is it so hard to view managing people in the same light?

------
kev1nrose
Seems this video came off the wrong way - I didn't mean to throw anyone under
the bus, but rather highlight mistakes I wish not to repeat. As the founder I
am accountable.

A few things I've learned over the years:

\- Realize you're only as good as the people you hire.

\- As a non-coding founder, it's important you perform deep reference checks
and have a trusted senior developer review code samples prior to hiring. (We
rewrote ALL of our early code base because we didn't take this step)

\- Make time to interview every potential hire and vet them with proven
experts.

\- Ensure employees are a good cultural fit.

\- If someone is doing a poor job, step-up and fire them.

\- Look for employees that are up for the technical challenges. I remember
several occasions when the answer was "MySQL can't do that" vs "we can do
that, just not in MySQL".

~~~
philovivero
Sometimes, Kevin, a technical master will realise the limitations of the tool,
and not always suggest it as a solution for a problem that clearly calls for
something else.

Of course, that's over-simplifying things. Sometimes you asked for things that
were physically impossible. When you need 1Bn operations to complete a task,
you can't do that with 1M worth of resources, no matter if you try to use
MySQL, Cassandra, or text files to get that result. You see, some of us at
Digg actually had real computer science degrees, where we learned algorithm
worst-case complexity, and we understood you were asking too much of too few
computers. And if you think back hard enough, you'll remember the answer was
actually: "MySQL can't do that unless you get 10x more computers."

Thanks for talking about your dissatisfaction with the theoretical limits of
computing here, in this forum, where I had to find out about it third-hand,
instead of actually talking to me face-to-face back when it could have made a
difference.

Signed lovingly, Your MySQL DBA from Digg.

------
9oliYQjP
Great leaders figure out how to effectively work with "B and C" grade
developers. Good leaders simply try not to work with them. Poor leaders blame
them.

~~~
cpeterso
If a business plan can only succeed with "A" developers, then perhaps it is
not a very good plan.

------
danilocampos
Sounds like a great way to kick off recruiting for his next venture.

~~~
anonymoushn
It seems fine to me. I regularly interview people with CS degrees (some of
every kind!) who couldn't code their way out of a paper bag. If we didn't
spend a huge amount of time interviewing people compared to the number of
people we extend offers to, we would be hiring "B and C grade developers" too.

~~~
thomasb
I totally agree. Hiring blindly like that is hazardous to say the least.

------
Hominem
Classy, nothing like an exec who blames the hires that came onboard under his
watch for his failures. Here is a hint for the next time Rose, you were
building a web site, not the space shuttle, you don't need 40 "rockstar"
developers, hire fewer people and work slower.

~~~
schultzi
I really hope space shuttles aren't built by "throwing warm bodies" at the
task.

------
pedalpete
What is a "C" or "D" coder? Is it somebody who writes bad code that works?
Somebody who takes forever? Somebody who doesn't care?

I figure I'm probably a "C" coder, I get stuff done, and I'm always improving,
but I know there are better coders out there than me.

Does management take any responsibility in driving C's to be A's??

Apparently not from Rose's point of view. What does HN think?

~~~
lkesteloot
A "C" coder is someone who writes bad code. It's relatively easy to detect and
fire a "C" coder.

A "B" coder is one who for the most part writes good code, but doesn't design
a good long-term architecture, or makes many small mistakes that add up in the
long run, or leaves the code riddled with small bugs that eventually cause
frequent problems. The "B" coders are the dangerous ones because really you
should fire them or fix them, but it's too easy to ignore them.

An "A" coder writes solid code and is dependable, but doesn't hit the high
notes, as Joel Spolsky says.

A star coder is an "A" coder who hits the high notes.

(I don't know what a "D" coder is, but perhaps our scales are offset by one
letter grade.)

~~~
spitfire
A "D" coder is outsourcing. or code that is bad, runs slowly, has bugs and is
often incomplete. Oftentimes things are written in one heroic coding session
and simply cannot be touched after that. BUT it meets the "specs".

ooowww I've seen some of that.

An "A _" coder's code is simple to spot: It's boring. There's nothing heroic
or clever (that's hard to debug) it's well documented so even junior devs can
understand it, and thought has been taken so that it can be extended in the
future. To put it simply it shows_ taste*. That is a rare thing indeed.

------
cek
I've built many large and small engineering teams. One of the most important
lessons I've learned is "A players hire A players. B players hire C players. C
players hire D players." It is a fact.

Sometimes you can't avoid hiring B players. But if you do (either by mistake
or because you explicitly decided to) you need to be disciplined about either
turning them in a A players or ensuring they are not responsible for hiring.
If you find you have C or D players get them to move on IMMEDIATELY.

Kevin says something here that is really important, and I think it is part of
the lesson he's learned: "It was really hard to get rid of the C & D guys".

This is why I now try to work on the principle that I am far better off not
hiring someone than compromising on quality. I have learned the hard way
(multiple times) if I don't live by this principle, I WILL pay later.

~~~
ojbyrne
A. Why is it so hard? California is an at-will state. You just fire them.

B. I completely agree with the idea of making B players into A players. It's
called "management" or "employee development." It did not exist at digg.

~~~
lkesteloot
A. Because managers, for the most part, don't have the courage to do it. It's
emotionally difficult to fire, so they look the other way.

~~~
cek
One is not an experienced manager until one has had to fire someone. One is
not a good manager until that happens either.

------
trustfundbaby
I don't think he throws them under the bus as much as he shows his total lack
of understanding and involvement in a key part of what would have made his
business successful.

Based on that anecdote, I'm amazed that Digg got this far.

------
joshu
This is basically what happened with del.icio.us after the acquisition. It was
insanely bad.

------
jjordan
I can tell someone hasn't read The Mythical Man-Month.

------
sp332
That's a clip from the latest episode of "This Week in Tech",
<http://twit.tv/293> . You can get audio as well as high- and low-def video
downloads from there. The clip seems to be from 34:10 into the show.

------
ojbyrne
One of the things I found kind of weird about this whole argument is that Joe
Stump, basically made an argument in 2009 that amounts to "hire shitty
programmers"

<http://vimeo.com/3571817>

------
nlz1
How is this "throwing under the bus?" He's absolutely right. They probably
made some hiring mistakes, and those are can be tough to identify and undo.

I suspect the one making the analogy is such a developer. Related:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect>

~~~
btmorex
He's blaming poor coders for digg's failure, but he's the one who ultimately
hired them (or at least started the ball rolling by initially hiring bad
people) so really it's his failure.

Every company is inundated by poor applicants. One of the most important--
maybe the most important--responsibilities of a founder is hiring good people.
He failed at that responsibility.

~~~
sirclueless
How is he blaming them? The whole point of his argument is that he failed to
bring in good people. As you say, "He failed at that responsibility."

~~~
nlz1
+1 my point exactly

------
adolfojp
Link's dead, Jim.

~~~
Groxx
Dropbox: I'm a synchronized folder, not a CDN!

~~~
raganwald
Well, let's take a step back and think about the sync problem and what the
ideal solution for it would do:

    
    
      There would be a folder.  
      You'd put your stuff in it.  
      It would sync.
    

They built that.

Why didn't anyone else build that? I have no idea.

"But," you may ask, "so much more you could do! What about serving public
files over the Internet. It could be an easy-to-use Content Delivery Network!"

No, shut up. People don't use that crap. They just want a folder. A folder
that syncs.

[https://www.quora.com/Dropbox/Why-is-Dropbox-more-popular-
th...](https://www.quora.com/Dropbox/Why-is-Dropbox-more-popular-than-other-
programs-with-similar-functionality)

~~~
drivebyacct2
No one is contesting that. Parent was simply mocking those that use Dropbox as
a CDN.

~~~
raganwald
Who said I was contesting anything? I was agreeing. Well, not agreeing with
mocking anyone, but rather praising the Dropbox folks for not trying to make
Dropbox work under these circumstances. Trying to make Dropbox do something it
wasn't designed to do is hacking. If it doesn't work, fine, I would never mock
someone for trying to hack something.

Replies need not be antagonistic, you know. I'm more than a little amazed how
quickly people assume disagreement. Aren't we all one big happy family?

~~~
tedunangst
Apparently rightness is a zero sum game. In order to maximize my rightness,
you must be wrong.

~~~
raganwald
You may have something there :-)

In any event, (a) I was coat tailing on your excellent and insightful joke,
(b) I quoted someone else's brilliant wit, contributing nothing original, so
(c) no matter how people arrived at the idea that my comment wasn't
contributing to the conversation, (d) they may be right :-)

------
segdeha
Digg's code wasn't the problem.

------
ieure
Link is definitely dead, mirror: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1r9XZZISS4>

------
tutanosh
Hiring poor developers is not the cause of what went wrong with Digg, but a
symptom of what really went wrong.

The problem with Digg is they stumbled onto a formula that drove them to
success overnight, but the company never had a true vision that they believed
in and followed as a company.

------
jv22222
The main problem with the whole Digg affair is that it re-affirms VC's ideas
that "the kids shouldn't be left in charge".

I hope this hasn't done a disservice to other "about to be" funded
entrepreneurs who might not be so cavalier about their ventures.

------
TTDaVeTT
This is actually taken a bit out of context in you watch the full interview.
This response was to the question of what experiences from Digg are you taking
with you to your next startup and what are you going to do differently.

------
fedd
i have a question whether digg (and reddit) investors _are going to lose some
money_ on all these problems with technical debt.

if the answer is positive, that would be an argument to defend more careful
development over quick business returns and short lasted customer happiness.

there are plenty arguments against over-engineering, there must be the balance
:)

------
thomasb
No news here. This happens to a lot of orgs that rapidly hire. No big deal. I
think Kevin's best work is ahead of him.

~~~
DiggEmployee2
I hate to break it to you but you are what is known as a 'Fanboy'

------
Urgo
Does anyone still have a copy of this and able to mirror it? The link on
dropbox is dead now and I'd love to hear this.

------
jacobshea
He speaks the truth, I don't see any problem with what he said.....this
happens.

~~~
DiggEmployee2
How can you judge what is true when you don't even know what the truth is? Did
you work at Digg? I can assure that while there were of course sub-par
employees, they are now what I would attribute to v4's failure.

------
joshfinnie
Dropbox seems to be down. Link is dead...

~~~
Groxx
Dropbox kills public files pretty quickly if they get a lot of traffic. Within
minutes, sometimes - seems to depend on the size of the file.

~~~
dwynings
Dropbox is actually down—nothing to do with this link.

~~~
TillE
Huh, so it is.

The Dropbox bandwidth limit for non-paid users is reportedly 10GB/day. If the
file's 20MB, that's only 500 views. Definitely not a CDN.

------
damiendonnelly
A poor craftsman blames his tools.

------
jijoy
I think , there is no B and C , there is only who wants to make his/her
product work or lousy dont care guys . It's all attitude .

~~~
jmtulloss
I totally disagree with this. Some people just aren't very good at making
things, even if they care.

~~~
jijoy
if you put enough hard work and with dedication , anybody can make anything.
remember nothing is impossible

------
eurohacker
the fact that their main competitor Reddit.com currently only has 1 software
devloper - shows that the main problem for Digg is management - there is no
need for so many developers anyway

they can hire as many of the worlds best developers as they want - it does not
hide the fact that diggs management people are yesterdays stars

