
When Zuckerberg Asserted Control, Instagram’s Founders Chafed - eudora
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/25/technology/instagram-cofounders-resign-zuckerberg.html
======
40acres
I'm not sure that Facebook using Instagram as a way to funnel people back to
Facebook is a great strategy. Companies need to be willing to cannibalize
themselves or someone will do it for them.

I don't know if Zuck had the foresight at the time, but Instagram has
obviously been an amazing hedge against apps like Snapchat. People like
Instagram and Snapchat partly because they are less formal than Facebook, most
users don't even know that Facebook owns Instagram, my girlfriend is always
shocked (and a bit annoyed) when I tell her.

I think it'd be smart to simply enhance Instagram's ad platform and be willing
to cede Facebook MAU over to Instagram, at the end of the day the dollars all
go to the same account.

If people start to become dissatisfied w/ Instagram because of "Facebook-
ification" that may open up a market for a new competitor.

~~~
eksemplar
I saw some usage data in a quartz article, that I can’t find, earlier this
week. Facebook was the most popular social media platform across teenagers,
millennials, generation x and baby boomers.

The real interesting data was in teenagers though, their most popular platform
is Snapchat, but none of the platforms had managed to make more than 40% of
teenagers create an account with them.

I think this is interesting because it shows that Facebook isn’t really
sucking that much worse than Instagram and that Instagram isn’t going to save
Facebook on its own.

From a more anecdotal perspective, I think the integration was smart. I’m not
very active on social media, but I do use Facebook to arrange events with my
friends that live in multiple cities. Because I see people sharing Instagram
posts on Facebook through the integration, I’ve considered creating an
account. Of course I’ve also considered leaving the platform because Facebook
keeps doing the wrong thing.

~~~
jjeaff
I'm guessing that data was based on simply having an account? Because I feel
like teenagers all have a Facebook account, but few actually use it with any
frequency.

~~~
eksemplar
It was, twitter, Instagram and Facebook were lower than 30% and Snapchat was
around 40%. For teenagers.

For millennials Facebook was above 80% with Instagram and Snapchat sitting
above 60% and twitter somewhat lower.

I mean, having an account isn’t as interesting than usage, but when less than
30% of teenagers have an account, they probably aren’t using it a whole lot.

I wonder where they went though, the article didn’t say anything about that.
Discord maybe?

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patorjk
> As Instagram kept on growing, Mr. Zuckerberg believed there were ways it
> should help Facebook grow and improve Facebook’s “user engagement.” That
> included small tweaks, like automatically sharing Instagram “Stories” videos
> to Facebook without clear signs indicating the videos were taken on
> Instagram.

That's a little sneaky. I had started to notice more stories when I opened FB,
and it was always the people I'm also friends with on Instagram. I hadn't
realized that they may be coming from Instagram.

> Earlier this year, Facebook also removed a shortcut link to Instagram from
> its “bookmarks” menu inside the Facebook app, a small but significant source
> of traffic that flowed from Facebook to Instagram.

What would the point of this be? Why would FB want to shut off traffic to
another one of their properties?

~~~
revicon
> What would the point of this be? Why would FB want to shut off traffic to
> another one of their properties?

They make waay more money off of facebook ads than they do from instagram ads.
And they're seeing people dumping Facebook in favor of just using Instagram.
They're trying to staunch the bleed.

~~~
mhh__
Exactly. Facebook just isn't "cool" anymore, no one posts to facebook like
they do with snapchat or Instagram, so why not?

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Agathos
Second-to-last paragraph really makes the article:

> And their departure, despite its suddenness, does require some perspective.
> Both Instagram founders stayed on for six years after being acquired — much
> longer than entrepreneurs usually do after selling their company and long
> after they had received their full payout in stock.

Dog Bites Man After Unusually Long Delay

~~~
amerine
A dog that waits that long to bite is probably starting to get abused in some
fashion.

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afpx
Good for Zuckerberg. He bought it, he owns it, and he can do whatever he wants
with it. I don’t get the sympathy for the Instagram founders. They sold it and
made a quick fortune. Detach, drop out, and have some fun.

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ianhawes
One thing omitted from the Instagram genesis story is that they effectively
stole the Hipstamatic "filters" feature and added a basic timeline a la
Twitter. Sharing to Twitter fueled their growth from that point. And the rest
is history!

~~~
tomjakubowski
Around the same time as these there was another app that made you drag a
depiction of your photo around a mock darkroom to "develop" it with those
"filters".

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MBCook
Wasn’t that the app that had the genius idea to make your photos more
“important“ by charging you an in app purchase for “film“ so you would only
take pictures of things that mattered?

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gotwilly
Doesn't "Probably not, he said. At least, not as quickly." and "Perhaps.
Eventually." mean essentially the same thing?

~~~
arcticbull
IMO its a different tone. The first says "no. well... maybe..." [I don't want
to undercut the value of the property] whereas the other says "yes. well...
maybe..." [I don't want to appear unappreciative of the resources of the
company that owns mine].

~~~
whytaka
To be annoyingly precise, the second says: "Maybe, well... yes."

~~~
arcticbull
Fair! :) I see how you read it that way; to me perhaps is corporate speak for
a noncommittal yes, and eventually is a way of making it even less committal
by specifying a long timeline. I mean, anything could happen eventually, it
just depends on when you mean.

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code_duck
I’ve made some comments here previously about how Facebook has been ruining
Instagram by making it into Facebook, and it looks like the founder agrees.

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swami26
I believe Instagram's founders just rode the train until it was not fun
anymore.

~~~
ddingus
Exactly. No worries all around.

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Apocryphon
"Mark Zuckerberg was asked if Instagram could have hit one billion users if it
had not been bought by Facebook.

Probably not, he said. At least, not as quickly. [...]

Kevin Systrom and Mike Krieger, had a slightly different answer to that
question.

Perhaps. Eventually.

We will never know who was right."

What if, Instagram had merged with Snapchat instead?

~~~
naravara
Facebook would have leveraged its user base and clout to smother them in the
crib.

This is why they ought to be one of the first targets for anti-trust
regulation. Any company that can leverage its market size to kill competition,
irrespective of the quality of their product, needs to be taken down a peg.

Google and Amazon should be close behind. And Apple needs to be put on notice.

It's not even that those 3 companies are bad actors in themselves (thought
they are and aren't in various respects). It's that their investors need to
know that lock-in and megalomania as business strategies aren't acceptable.

~~~
Apocryphon
While you're not wrong from a regulatory standpoint, I think consumer product-
wise both Instagram and Snapchat were among the strongest challengers to
Facebook as far as insurgent social media networks went. If they had merged-
well, the leadership would be dysfunctional, but it would have been very
entertaining to see Facebook on the defensive.

~~~
naravara
> I think consumer product-wise both Instagram and Snapchat were among the
> strongest challengers to Facebook as far as insurgent social media networks
> went.

Maybe. I feel like one of the issues with a lot of start-ups is that the
engineers who build them and happen on the ideas don't have the business
instincts to outmaneuver bigger, well-funded challengers. And when they bring
on VC funding or people into their companies who do have those skills, they
inevitably push them to the same sorts of unfriendly monetization and invasive
schemes that the big players have. Very few people have the political acumen
to tell investors to STFU the way people like Jobs or Bezos were able to, so
they're just open to predation by VCs.

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louwrentius
It's a lot easier to stand for your principles and say no to $850M if you
already own billions...

~~~
bogomipz
Indeed, how much of a moral stance is it when you only make it on the last
billion?

~~~
philipov
It isn't a moral stance. This is PR.

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beguiledfoil
Do we have a name for tech that encourages compulsive use over any kind of
deeper value? Candy tech? Sugar tech?

~~~
ingenieros
Yes, there's even a book about it: "Hooked" by Nir Eyal.

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dawhizkid
What do you really expect when you sell your company?

~~~
aklemm
This is certainly the question in general, and I'd like to know specifically
what they thought the first six years at Facebook should look like.

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da02
I'm not on FB. I also haven't used Instagram for a while. How has Instagram
changed in the last few years?

~~~
willturman
That's an interesting question! For $2500, I would be happy to curate a post
for my 17,000 Instagram followers featuring your question in the text of a
post of myself near a slightly off-trail vista at a remote yet recognizable
exotic location.

~~~
da02
So you're saying it's a bunch of people trying to earn money endorsing
merchandise and places?

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jstepka
When you sell it. You take the money and it’s not yours anymore. Doesn’t
matter what’s said, this is just how it is. This shouldn’t be confusing.

~~~
wolco
Agreements and contracts can dictate otherwise.

------
roymurdock
Zuckerberg: Take the money.

Acton: I'm not taking it.

Z: Just take it.

A: No!

Z: Look, I don't give a fuck, but the boys'll feel better.

A: Fuck their feelings!

Z: [Brian], we're a team.

A: A team? You guys are fucking insane. I'll go back to the Valley, I'll
[create messaging apps]. It can't be like this.

Z: It is. I'm sorry, but it is. It's ugly, but it's necessary.

A: I became a [developer] to put away dealers and criminals, not to be one.

Z: You sound just like me. I know what you're going through and feeling.
You're scared.

A: I'm not.

Z: Yes, you are. Everyone goes through that the first time. I did. The sooner
you match what's in your head...with what's in the real world...the better
you'll feel.

Z: In this business...you gotta have dirt on you to be trusted. When all this
is behind you, a whole other world will open up for you.

Z: I walk a higher path, son.

Z: I have the keys to all the doors.

~~~
glockenspielen
Is this a joke?

~~~
jbigelow76
It's the transcripts they'll recite during the canonization of St. Acton,
patron saint of "After I get Mine".

~~~
sp527
Lol at the flak being hurled at this guy like we wouldn't all do exactly the
same thing, were we in his position.

~~~
jbigelow76
Not true, I would have stuck it out for another year for the extra $850
million.

~~~
arcticbull
I mean, that's a lot of zeroes. I was going to say commas but that doesn't
really reflect the magnitude right :P

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princekolt
Side note: For anyone interested, the third picture down[1] in the article is
a fairly high resolution photo of a computer monitor where you can see Xcode
and some very neat Objective-C code.

[1]:
[https://static01.nyt.com/images/2018/09/25/business/25INSTAG...](https://static01.nyt.com/images/2018/09/25/business/25INSTAGRAM04/merlin_45856561_88d6defc-30be-44f9-acf5-9aef8849cb09-superJumbo.jpg?quality=100&auto=webp)

~~~
abkumar
I wonder when this picture was taken. The iPhone design in the simulator, the
old Gmail favicon, the old OS X scrollbars all indicate this being several
years old.

Wouldn't be surprised if this code has been rewritten multiple times since.

~~~
aaaaaaaaaab
Their code is using manual reference counting so it must have been taken
before ARC was introduced on WWDC 2011.

~~~
arcticbull
Not necessarily; for the same reason many companies haven't jumped on Swift
(specifically, not wanting to run all your hundreds of thousands of lines of
code through a potentially buggy translator all the time), people didn't
immediately jump onto ARC either. If I recall, that migration was far from
painless. I remember some serious regressions introduced when I bit that
bullet. Since all your code changed at once, tracking it down was hardly
entertaining. IMO could have been anywhere from 2012 to 2013...

This code also appears not to be using automatically synthesized properties.
On the left screen, they're directly accessing Ivars and their Ivars have
trailing underscores rather than leading (the default when synthesized). I
suppose they could be doing this anyways, though it wouldn't exactly be
standard industry practice.

On the right Xcode screen, though, the code does use property syntax, so
potentially ARC, although one doesn't imply the other.

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onetimemanytime
Duh, he owns the company. You sold it.

FB needs to show xx% growth or else it's toast. So they start looking under
couch cushions for pennies...

