
1995 Vannevar Bush symposium: Closing Panel - lispython
http://worrydream.com/refs/Vannevar%20Bush%20Symposium%20-%20Closing%20Panel.html
======
lsh
I had no idea what NLS was so I did a quick wikipedia search:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NLS_(computer_system)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NLS_\(computer_system\))

"One of NLS's most revolutionary features, the Journal, was developed in 1970
by Australian computer engineer David A. Evans as part of his doctoral
thesis.[6] The Journal was a primitive hypertext-based groupware program which
can be seen as a predecessor (if not the direct ancestor) of all contemporary
server software that supports collaborative document creation (like wikis). It
was used by ARC members to discuss, debate, and refine concepts in the same
way that wikis are being used today."

A wiki in 1970. I feel like we've forgotten so much.

~~~
noonespecial
Gibson's "The future is already here – it's just not evenly distributed" comes
to mind.

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Mithrandir
Here's the video of that panel discussion:
[https://archive.org/details/XD1941_10_95VannevarBushSymTape1...](https://archive.org/details/XD1941_10_95VannevarBushSymTape11_2ndDayPanelDis)

and the entire Symposium:
[https://archive.org/search.php?query=%221995%20Vannevar%20Bu...](https://archive.org/search.php?query=%221995%20Vannevar%20Bush%20Symposium%22)

Edit: The Doug Engelbart Institute has some more info on the event
[http://www.dougengelbart.org/events/vannevar-bush-
symposium....](http://www.dougengelbart.org/events/vannevar-bush-
symposium.html)

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e12e
Interesting post, but could use a [1995] in the title.

For those that are interested in some radical proposals to try and move things
forward, I recommend having a look at the work that's being done at the
Viewpoints Research Institute (with among others, Alan Kay):

[http://www.viewpointsresearch.org/](http://www.viewpointsresearch.org/)

There's a lot of different papers, but the last annual report of STEPS is a
good place to start:

[http://www.vpri.org/pdf/tr2011004_steps11.pdf](http://www.vpri.org/pdf/tr2011004_steps11.pdf)

[edit: Sadly, as far as I've been able to figure out, the kscript and ksworld
software mentioned in the last few reports, isn't available anywhere. But I
did discover a port of squeak to the lively (js) kernel system:

[https://github.com/bertfreudenberg/SqueakJS](https://github.com/bertfreudenberg/SqueakJS)
]

------
adamnemecek
Can someone recommend a book that would talk about all this stuff in more
detail? By all this stuff, I guess I mean all the dreams about personal
computing that never came to fruition. Ideally with little fluff and a lot of
technical detail.

~~~
tudorw
Ted's book is fantastic, Computer Lib and Dream Machines.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Lib_/_Dream_Machines](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Lib_/_Dream_Machines)

[http://www.amazon.co.uk/Computer-Lib-Dream-Machines-
Tempus/d...](http://www.amazon.co.uk/Computer-Lib-Dream-Machines-
Tempus/dp/0914845497/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1395651707&sr=1-1&keywords=Computer+Lib%2FDream+Machines)

~~~
leoc
Technical description of Xanadu is buried in places like

[http://transliterature.org/](http://transliterature.org/)

[http://www.xanadu.com.au/ted/XUsurvey/xuDation.html](http://www.xanadu.com.au/ted/XUsurvey/xuDation.html)

[http://xanadu.com/xanasimp](http://xanadu.com/xanasimp)

(See also
[http://hyperland.com/TedCompOneLiners](http://hyperland.com/TedCompOneLiners)
and [http://hyperland.com/mlawLeast.html](http://hyperland.com/mlawLeast.html)
for overview/philosophy and
[http://hyperland.com/mlawLeast.html](http://hyperland.com/mlawLeast.html) for
some links.)

EDIT: And there's another book, Literary Machines
[http://www.worldcat.org/title/literary-
machines/oclc/4017610...](http://www.worldcat.org/title/literary-
machines/oclc/40176100) but good luck finding a cheap copy.

~~~
tudorw
Thanks for filling out the technical side :) Here's Ted showing ZigZag, just
because;

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEj9vqVvHPc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEj9vqVvHPc)

------
Fice
Also a very interesting read: A Conversation with Alan Kay, ACM Queue, 2004,
[https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=1039523](https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=1039523)

------
nateabele
I got to meet Ted Nelson a couple of years ago when he gave a talk at a
designer/developer conference in Brookyln [0]. He was talking about hypermedia
document transclusion, and directed graph mapping of hyperlinked documents. I
was one of the ~5 people in the room who got really excited. The other 200 or
so... well, let's say they didn't get it.

A lot of the things these guys talk about are really, really abstract
concepts, and it takes a special kind of creativity to realize what a big deal
they could be. Since most people don't have that (and since it's even rarer
among people who market products)... we get repackaged word processors.

[0] [https://brooklynbeta.org/](https://brooklynbeta.org/)

------
unexistance
"Education is a process of ruining subjects for you and the last subject to be
ruined determines your profession"

that makes a lot of sense to me, and partly explains why I'm in IT / computers
now

~~~
NAFV_P
> _" Education is a process of ruining subjects for you and the last subject
> to be ruined determines your profession" that makes a lot of sense to me,
> and partly explains why I'm in IT / computers now_

Being unemployed for most of my life, that quote sounds way out of touch.

One of the best ways to ruin a subject is to tell someone who has been
studying very hard at said subject and also has made spectacular progress,
that they should stick to what they are capable of - and then tell them they
are just wasting their time and should stick to sweeping streets and cleaning
shit stained toilets. It's even more of an insult to receive criticisms in
writing, with poor spelling and grammar.

If, unlike myself, you have a full time job and don't get treated like a
retard, rejoice.

------
zwieback
It's striking how all those GUI discussions and moaning about Microsft seems
totally irrelevant now. I remember those days well and I can't recall anybody
envisioning the way we interact with information via mobile devices now.
Interestingly, I hear a lot less complaining about the state of computing now
although there's plenty of complaining about what mobility has done to human
interaction in general.

~~~
jes5199
mobile UI isn't very powerful, compared to Kay & Engelbart's applications
either, though. They were focused on quick and powerful editing of content -
mobile apps hardly allow you to edit anything at all.

------
ohwp
Very interesting discussion.

One gem: _" So the way I hope that it will work for the Web protocols and the
WWW standards which I hope will be able to evolve from their kludgy current
state towards that beautiful golden dream is that in any case where you lay
down a standard, you also allow there to a second and you show a path whereby
is a third one comes up that is better you can move in that direction on the
heels of the first, keeping it honest and you have a hook in it to be able to
hook it all together later on." (Tim Berners-Lee)_

------
gregw134
Is there a working emulator for Engelbart's NLS system anywhere?

~~~
DennisP
After Doug Engelbart died I poked around and found a clone of his Augment
software. It's a Windows 3.0 application, this company still uses it and sells
copies for $150:

[http://www.ndma.com/resources/ndm8543.htm](http://www.ndma.com/resources/ndm8543.htm)

Comes with a decent manual. I've played around with it a bit but not too much
so far.

It's limited to 8-character filenames, and seems more mouse-dependent than I
prefer, though maybe I just don't know all the tricks. These days, emacs with
org-mode and evil-mode might be a more productive implementation of similar
ideas. But it's still pretty interesting. Curiously, one thing that people
have criticized as unintuitive is its modal verb-noun command structure, which
as a Vim user I find completely natural.

How well this software really captures NLS, I can't say.

~~~
endlessvoid94
I tried to email that group and didn't get a response -- have you had any
luck?

~~~
DennisP
I ended up phoning them. They were pleasantly surprised that someone wanted to
buy their old Windows 3.0 software. Mostly they just use it internally.

Once I got connected they were really nice and helpful.

~~~
endlessvoid94
Have you used the software?

