
Estonia's E-Residency Program Is Growing Faster Than Predicted - jkaljundi
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/estonias-e-residency-program-is-growing-three-times-faster-than-predicted
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yummyfajitas
It's worth noting that you can get similar benefits from Singapore.

Singapore doesn't have a cute "E-residency" program, but a foreigner can just
pay a local agent and have a corporation opened. Corporate taxes are a clean
17% (lower for small businesses and startups), no dividend taxes, etc.

[http://www.guidemesingapore.com/incorporation/company/singap...](http://www.guidemesingapore.com/incorporation/company/singapore-
company-registration-guide)

[http://www.guidemesingapore.com/taxation/corporate-
tax/singa...](http://www.guidemesingapore.com/taxation/corporate-
tax/singapore-corporate-tax-guide)

You also get a fairly stable and well established set of corporate law, which
unfortunately Estonia doesn't offer (yet).

The real tricky bit for Americans is how Singapore's tax system (just
corporate income tax!) would interact with the US's crazy one (e.g. dividends,
capital gains, random other things).

~~~
crdb
From my (limited, I Am Not A Lawyer, etc.) understanding:

First, it's expensive - you should count a good S$5k SGD/year if you go
through an established player (e.g. Hawksford, who you are quoting), maybe a
bit less otherwise. This ad infinitum, as you need a local director to keep
the company open. And unlike in Hong Kong not so long ago, it has to be a real
director - someone who theoretically can open bank accounts and hire people -
so you're taking that risk too (the director will, conversely, be taking the
risk that you might be a scammer or other criminal whose acts he'll have to
answer for in court).

Then you have to put in S$50k in capital in order to be able to apply for a
visa (EP) for yourself, should you want permission to work in Singapore (if
not, you'll get taxed at home when repatriating profits); this visa will
require, today, at least S$4-5k/month in "salary" (which will be taxed).

This also assumes that the Ministry of Manpower doesn't suddenly catch upon
this very convenient way of getting yourself what is effectively an investor
visa at a fraction of the investor visa cost (which they did two years ago
with the EntrePass, which is today utterly useless for most foreign founders
due to its requirement to have funding from a short list of approved VCs).
Guessing what MoM wants and is going to do seems to be a bit of Kremlinology
which HR directors love talking about as their special value add, but it is a
bit opaque and the rules change with time, elections and special circumstances
(like the famed riots last year, or the Ferrari and taxi incident).

The "plan" should you want to take advantage of Singapore's otherwise
fantastic conditions for running a business is to get PR, which takes up to 3
years employed locally (depending on salary - someone on a high salary and
from a "desirable" country might get it in 6 months). Singapore is
fantastic... for local founders. Or if you're willing to pay.

The days where you could be in business for USD 1,500 and a flight to Hong
Kong appear to be, unfortunately, over. I'd love to be proven wrong...

~~~
awch
Could you comment on the current state of affairs in HK?

~~~
crdb
A few years ago, I opened and closed a company there with no problems. Did it
again recently (post the various money laundering laws) and it was much more
paperwork. When I flew to HK to get the bank account opened, they stressed I
might not get it and that many foreigners could not get an account opened. 4
weeks later, HSBC denied me an account so the company lies empty until I
decide to close it.

In a previous thread, someone said they managed to open an account so maybe
it's on a case by case basis.

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siscia
The exiting news is that estonia is working let people open a bank account
remotely, it should be live in Autumn 2016 [1], which is an year from now, but
it will really bring a lot of changes...

[1]: [http://us9.campaign-
archive1.com/?u=d439c8680308c578a74dbd36...](http://us9.campaign-
archive1.com/?u=d439c8680308c578a74dbd368&id=3083b438f4&e=c1735a3344)

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edko
I am a citizen and a resident of another EU country, and have established a
company in Estonia recently. Obtaining e-residency was fast and
straightforward. I picked up the card in Tallinn, and opened the company the
same day. You will need an address in Estonia, but there are companies that
provide that service. I used LeapIn
([https://www.leapin.eu](https://www.leapin.eu)) which also provide accounting
services (disclosure: my only relationship to them is that I am their client).
Their fees are very reasonable and they can help speed up the entire process.

I tried opening a bank account in two banks. One rejected me because (despite
having the company) I did not have sufficient ties to Estonia. The other
(Swedbank) was very friendly and opened the account the same day. Again,
LeapIn smoothened the process for me. I picked up my banking card three days
later and everything worked perfectly.

Obtaining a VAT number is more difficult, and I wouldn't have managed without
LeapIn's help. You need to convince the tax authorities that there is a
legitimate reason why you need it. You need to present evidence (I had a
previous company in another EU country) and there are several rounds of
dialogue (knowing Estonian, and the local rules is very handy).

Overall, I was amazed at how efficient the process is, and how much effort
Estonia is putting into making it even better. This really looks like a major
strategic initiative for the country, where they are putting a lot of thought
and investment.

Tallinn really deserves a separate post. It is a very beautiful city, with
lots of life and things to do, really good atmosphere, good food, and
reasonable prices. Very well worth my one-week trip!

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hellofunk
The article doesn't really explain what the e-residency service actually
provides, but links to another article with more useful details:

[http://motherboard.vice.com/read/lets-all-become-e-
residents...](http://motherboard.vice.com/read/lets-all-become-e-residents-of-
estonia)

~~~
zdkl
"one of her colleagues signed his job contract on his mobile phone while out
fishing on the sea."

so in addition to leading the way in digital citizenship, they also have
impressive data coverage? Count me in!

Joke aside, I'm very interested in seeing how bigger countries will implement
something similar

~~~
hellofunk
This kind of stuff only happens in very small nations in my experience. They
often have very little to lose, and the barrier to make major changes is
small. This has been true in many of the smaller nations I've lived in, but I
can't see the United States and other larger nations ever being efficient with
the transition to this.

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kaspa130
just now there is open AMA in Nomadforum, some useful information there
[https://nomadforum.io/t/i-m-kaspar-director-of-estonia-s-
e-r...](https://nomadforum.io/t/i-m-kaspar-director-of-estonia-s-e-residency-
program-ama/4769/31)

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potrebitel22
The problem is that in order to operate as a startup, as the whole point of
the e-residency is, it's not that easy. Getting a bank account as of end of
September is quite hard, border line of impossible. Without a bank account, no
startup can be setup properly.

Other than that - very good idea and probably the execution will be even
better in the near future.

~~~
jdimov9
Try opening a bank account in the UK, if you think it's hard in Estonia.
Unlike Estonia, you CAN NOT just come to the UK from a foreign country and
open a bank account. Even if you've lived here for a while, it's still an
unbelievably ridiculous, frustrating and wasteful process.

Let's start with having to call the bank weeks or months in advance for an
appointment, like everything else in the UK. Even though your appointment is
for a specific hour, once you arrive on time, be prepared to wait hours before
someone sees you. You will then need two different proofs of address,
alongside endless other documents. For a business account, you need all
partners to be present at said appointment and you will be asked endless
questions about the nature of your business and your expected cashflow. If for
some reason your conversational English happens to be not so good, be prepared
to be flat-out refused a bank account, without much explanation. All of this
is usually justified by Know-Your-Customer and anti money lanundering
procedures, which is a bit ironic, considering that HSBC are the ones doing
all the money laundering to begin with.

~~~
speeq
I moved to the UK from a foreign country (from the EU though) and found it
quite easy to start my company and open my accounts.

It really depends on the bank and branch you're walking into. My advice: Avoid
doing what I did and don't apply for your first current account online. It
might seem more efficient and time-saving but it's actually not - because of
your non-existent credit history in the UK - they will have to ask you for
endless documents.

Once you're in the UK, walk into a high-street bank that is actively seeking
customers. Lloyds Bank or Barclays comes to mind. Ask for a basic bank
account, which they will open for you without proof of address. Make an
appointment with the same bank for a startup current account - sometimes they
will send you to a different branch - if they don't do business banking
themselves.

They will ask you about your business and estimated turnover. Make sure you
bring your incorporation documents.

It's worth noting that I'm the only director of my limited company and the
companies registered office was my home address - so no further proofs of
address were required.

Waiting for your cards to arrive in the mail is what takes the most time, but
I was able to use my online banking account even before I had my card.

------
simonebrunozzi
I have an e-residency card. This is my experience, and thoughts:
[http://brunozzi.com/2015/08/22/estonia-e-
residency/](http://brunozzi.com/2015/08/22/estonia-e-residency/)

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suneilp
Can anyone provide any insight on why E-Residency would be good for
businesses? How about startups in particular?

~~~
siscia
If you are e-citizen in estonia you can easily open a company there.

Taxation in estonia is pretty nice since basically the only tax you pay is
when you pull money out of the company, not when you sell something, as long
as the money are inside the company you don't own anything.

(Of course is a little bit more complex that this, but here is the idea, you
need to pay tax if you have employee for example)

~~~
icebraining
Well, you also pay VAT when you sell something. You just don't pay corporate
taxes.

~~~
kintamanimatt
IIRC you pay corporate taxes when the profits are distributed, but aren't
taxed so long as you keep them in the business.

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jcrei
Very interesting stats on applicants, and use cases for e-residency provided
here
[https://app.cyfe.com/dashboards/195223/5587fe4e5203610228371...](https://app.cyfe.com/dashboards/195223/5587fe4e52036102283711615553)

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esseti
Has anyone applied to this?

How much is the cost of being an Estonian e-citizen? When i was there i
understood there was some cost, roughly < 100 euros. Is every step of the
procedure online? or some paperwork has to be done in Estonia (this is was my
understanding of last time)

~~~
delibaltas
I applied to this and I am receiving my card from their consulate in Athens,
tomorrow. I spent 50 euros for the application.

~~~
esseti
thanks, so you don't have to go there, just to pay 50 euros.

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zura
Any experiences creating merchant account on Play store with this? (from
unsupported countries). Do you also have to pay income/sales/other taxes to
Estonia?

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diminish
"Than Predicted" and "Than Thought" allows journalists to make true blog
titles and for the audience it works better than expected.

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fit2rule
Set up my startup in Estonia, or Singapore .. anyone with experience either
way got hints/tips/advice?

~~~
tim333
Depends a bit where you live, plan to live and where you pay tax.

