
Please don’t pay to use a pay toilet - himlion
https://stallman.org/pay-toilets.html
======
CarolineW
It's too late for this comment to be seen and make a difference, it will sink
to the bottom of the thread without a trace, but in case anyone is interested
in reading more HN comments about this, it was submitted and discussed just 2
days ago:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13322288](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13322288)
(56 comments)

------
sambeau
I'm not sure if this was put here to ridicule Stallman or as a coda to his
comments about Skype but this is a simple well-explained argument that I
happen to agree with.

If local government can't use local taxes to provide shared toilet facilities
to stop us all having to defecate in the streets then what are they (and
taxes) for?

Community toilets (and streets clear of shit & piss) are, in my opinion, a
fundamental and should be the basis of all civilised society. The fact that so
many modern cities seem to have forgotten this is beyond me.

~~~
adwn
> _If local government can 't use local taxes to provide shared toilet
> facilities to stop us all having to defecate in the streets then what are
> they (and taxes) for?_

If local government can't use local taxes to provide free food to everyone to
stop us all having to starve in the streets then what are they (and taxes)
for?

Is access to toilets a more fundamental human right than access to food?

 _Edit:_ Stallman explicitly demands that public toilets should be free to
_everyone_ , independent of their financial situation. Using his logic, we
should boycot food until food is available to everyone free of charge. _Of
course_ I'm not arguing against feeding the needy, or against social nets in
general.

~~~
Sir_Substance
>Stallman explicitly demands that public toilets should be free to everyone,
independent of their financial situation. Using his logic, we should boycot
food until food is available to everyone free of charge. Of course I'm not
arguing against feeding the needy, or against social nets in general.

I actually don't see how you could unironically argue against providing
essential foods (think bread, beans and chicken/fish[whichever is local]) free
of charge, basic income style.

If that's affordable, we should totally do it. Of course, affordability is a
key part of the equation. I don't know if a basic sustenance program is
affordable. I do know that basic sanitation is /totally/ affordable.

Also, I feel compelled to point out that there's a public health interest in
making sure everyone has a sanitary place to defecate. Societies that failed
to provide this were regularly ravaged by cholera.

~~~
diryawish
How do you know sanitation's affordable? How much do you have to pay workers
to clean those public toilets?(anecdotally, these toilets have always been
dirtier than the private ones I've used) Will those cleaners be unionized or
require full-time benefits? How do you analyze toilet usage and concentrate
cleaning resources on those toilets which are used more? How much funding do
you dedicate to these analysts? How do you budget for future expenditures? Can
you tell me how it is more efficient do this with a bureaucracy rather than a
paid system?

As for the public health interest - how many homeless/low income/cheap people
will be forced to shit in the streets as a result of pay toilets? Will it
realistically lead to cholera?

It's completely reasonable to use pay toilets in some locales and public
toilets in others. Believing in a definitive answer without analysis is not
going to lead to good policy.

------
tete
I still am not a fan of Stallman and still have to agree. Stallman sadly is
right about most of the things he says. He has rather extremist stances
sometimes, but that doesn't mean he is wrong.

Maybe I'll stop using some of those services. I actually have a resolution
going on about not buying books off Amazon anymore. I just came across too
many authors and bookshop saying that Amazon has the practice of saying
"either give us specical/exclusive rights or we won't sell your book". I used
to like Amazon, and heck, I also was understanding about them trying to avoid
taxes, because most companies start doing that at some point, but extorting
authors of books is way too horrible.

Also here there are counter examples. There is many games you can get from the
developers, from Steam and from GoG for example, so why can't Amazon not be
horrible?

Sorry, got a bit distracted about the Amazon link also being up there.

Calls for boycotting companies somehow aren't as popular anymore, despite
having the internet and topics like the NDAP going viral. I think most people
agree that in our society money has a lot of power and phrases like "vote with
your money" have a point. Yet looking at the 60s till 80s those things were
way more popular, which is a bit odd.

Be it Skype, Uber or Amazon. You don't have to hate them, but calling out bad
practices and acting upon that information with not using their services seems
to be a reasonable way to have a positive impact.

In other words it seems odd that certain minor design improvements can justify
paying a lot more for a product or service, while that barely seems to be true
for the ethics of a product - outside of the food sector that is.

~~~
endgame
> Stallman sadly is right about most of the things he says. He has rather
> extremist stances sometimes, but that doesn't mean he is wrong.

From what I've seen, his extreme positions are often from him looking further
than a lot of other people.

------
_yosefk
Is using the toilet a human right then, and if so, whose duty is it to
volunteer to clean it up? Why are paid toilets nastier than paid food? Why not
give poor people money instead of spending time (and in this case, a certain
effort you can't even brag about in polite society) on yet another boycott? Is
there any social institution that is not boycotted by Stallman?

~~~
schlowmo
> "[...] whose duty is it to volunteer to clean it up?"

While this isn't applicable in all areas, a rule of thumb could be "those who
making money with the people which have to use toilets".

Anecdotal example: I'm living in an amusement district of a big German City.
There are very few public toilets and most of the few are paid ones. So every
weekend the whole district is smelling like a big bowl of piss, except in
winter when the frozen pee of multiple weekends accumulate until there is the
big pee-melt.

Why not making all those bars, clubs and liqor stores pay for the maintanance
of free public toilets?

~~~
semi-extrinsic
Or better yet, why not enact laws that say bars, clubs, gas stations, liquor
stores, restaurants and cafés have to have free toilets? Give them some
compensation, e.g. government pays for putting in or upgrading the bathroom
and the restaurant just has to keep it clean and open. It solves most of the
problems with public toilets out on the street, such as them being nasty and
occupied by homeless people, because the owner of the establishment wants to
keep it nice and clean.

~~~
true_religion
Don't they have to?

In the US, there's a law that says all places that serve food and aren't on a
public street (e.g. a food truck), have to have a public toilet.

At least in my jurisdiction, gas station don't have public toilets because
they want to---they have it because since they serve reheated hot dogs, they
are required to have a toilet.

~~~
degorov
Same thing in Russia. It doesn't always work well, but in most cases it does.
As for mass public events - usually there are free street portable toilets
provided as well. In most office buildings there are free toilets as well, and
in all shopping malls, of course. Cinemas, theatres, medical institutions...
All of those are publicly accessible without any questions asked.

To be honest, I can name only 2 places where the toilets are paid in Russia -
train and some bus stations and there are paid toilets near metro stations in
Moscow.

------
fattire
Of course, there is a story:

[https://psmag.com/why-don-t-we-have-pay-toilets-in-
america-2...](https://psmag.com/why-don-t-we-have-pay-toilets-in-
america-26efede62d6b)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_to_End_Pay_Toilets_i...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_to_End_Pay_Toilets_in_America)

------
dingo_bat
> Pay toilets are nasty, and ought to be illegal. Those of us who are not poor
> can afford the price, if we accept the practice; poor people can't.

Can't this be applied to basically anything? Food, water, electricity, pubic
transport. Let's refuse to pay for all of these otherwise the poor can't
afford it. Is this a parody webpage?

~~~
oneeyedpigeon
You don't think society has a duty to feed people who would otherwise starve
to death? Who do you think should pay to clean up the rotting corpse they
leave behind?

~~~
dingo_bat
Why would you pay for other people's food? Are you kidding? Cleaning up a
corpse is much cheaper than feeding a poor person her whole life.

~~~
oneeyedpigeon
Because I'd rather live in a world where a few pennies out of my pocket
results in everyone living a decent life, sans street corpses. Seriously, even
if you're an extreme individualist, is there NO price you would pay to not
have dead bodies strewn about the streets?

~~~
dingo_bat
So you moved the goalposts. You were talking about the economic thing to do. I
responded accordingly. Now you want to talk about ethics and morality.

------
Tharkun
I understand why toilets aren't free. Free public toilets in urban areas are
almost invariably dens of filth and crime. Unfortunately, pay toilets are
invariably filthy themselves.

It boggles the mind that rich "western" countries aren't able to keep public
infrastructre clean and free.

~~~
oneeyedpigeon
In my experience, it's a function of the environment in which the toilet lies.
A toilet in a quiet underground car park is almost guaranteed to be more
disgusting than a toilet in a well-lit, busy concourse. I've used pay toilets
that are pretty disgusting, too; never thought to ask for a refund, though...

------
gregwtmtno
Where I live, we don't have pay toilets, but when I was on vacation last I
thought they were great. I was happy to pay a little bit for a clean bathroom
instead of having to go at a coffee shop or restaurant.

Stallman has a point, but it's easily addressable. The government could give
the indigent vouchers to use the pay toilets. I'd even be happy to pay more to
use the bathrooms to subsidize such a program.

~~~
mrleiter
>The government could give the indigent vouchers to use the pay toilets.

Wouldn't work in Europe - Art. 18 TFEU.

~~~
informatimago
Hence BREXIT, and why all EU countries should consider exiting from the EU!

~~~
dom0
Do you _know_ what Article 18 of TFEU says?

> Within the scope of application of the Treaties, and without prejudice to
> any special provisions contained therein, any discrimination on grounds of
> nationality shall be prohibited.

> The European Parliament and the Council, acting in accordance with the
> ordinary legislative procedure, may adopt rules designed to prohibit such
> discrimination.

[http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:120...](http://eur-
lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:12008E018)

~~~
Wildgoose
Except that "any discrimination on grounds of nationality" is clearly NOT
prohibited, the obvious example being Scottish University Tuition Fees.

These are free for Scots, free for other residents of the EU, reduced rate
(not Free) for Welsh and Northern Irish, and a special higher rate is applied
solely to students from England, i.e. those with English nationality.

What was that about discrimination on grounds of nationality again?

Strictly, yes, I know, it's discrimination on nation of residence rather than
individual nationality. Nice trick. Guess where the English tend to be
resident? Yup. England.

------
GnarfGnarf
I think the German idea of paying businesses to allow the public to use their
toilets, is brilliant. It's cheaper for the government than running their own
toilets.

------
gcatalfamo
I don't want to be "that guy" but, here in Italy, I have heard of several
accounts of Stallmans visiting local Linux User Groups (full of his "fans"),
and he would have them pay for his dinner or he wouldn't go.

Although I understand his point:

\- I find pay toilets cleaner and I am not sure it is worth delving into
changing the national policy of better maintained free clean toilets with all
the problem we want to see addressed first;

\- I am starting to think his addressing to "proprietary" stuff is more
related to "avoid paying" than defending what is free.

~~~
Normal_gaussian
> I don't want to be "that guy" but, here in Italy, I have heard of several
> accounts of Stallmans visiting local Linux User Groups (full of his "fans"),
> and he would have them pay for his dinner or he wouldn't go.

So just like any touring speaker?

> \- I am starting to think his addressing to "proprietary" stuff is more
> related to "avoid paying" than defending what is free.

This view is false. You should read more of what he has written, especially in
regard to 'free' services that are only financially free.

------
tuna-piano
I wonder how he feels about using a toilet in a restaurant/cafe that is "For
customers only". Should he stop using any bathroom in these commercial places?

Many things are necessary in life. Most of those things cost money. If you
think poor people should be able to afford them too, then give them money
(direct or through government) and let them spend it how they want. I suspect
they may find pay toilets convenient as well.

~~~
himlion
I guess this boils down to whether you consider access to toilets a public
good or a private good.

Everyone* has a toilet at home, but its it the job of the government to supply
sanitation in all public spaces?

~~~
kodfodrasz
I'm ok with government run/subsidized pay toilets, if no private company is
willing to provide service in an area.

But if something is free, usually the service quality is also such, and many
people, who would not use it if it was not free are not taking care and
ruining these services.

------
devoply
Relevant: [https://www.fastcoexist.com/3065278/german-cities-are-
solvin...](https://www.fastcoexist.com/3065278/german-cities-are-solving-the-
age-old-public-toilet-problem)

------
i_feel_great
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_toilet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_toilet)

------
pepitrof
Some years ago the first time I saw a pay toilet I thought the same way, but
later on one day I was stomach sick, I appreciated so much that just paying
0.5€ it was ensuring me a perfectly clean and hygienical toilet to spend a
sick moment of my life, I'm not against public toilets, I'm neither against
pay ones.

------
chvid
The problem with stallmanism is that you eventually run out of other people's
toilets.

------
hkjgkjy
I don't understand americans on this point... I thought us Ëürøpæans were
supposed to be the socialist ones?

I for one LOVE the City Toilets I find all around in Berlin. Thank you for
providing this service, I'm happy to pay for it.

------
xchip
Unfortunately in Belgium you have to pay to use the toilets, even if there is
a cover charge.

Richard Stallman is probably here because of the FOSS and hence the post.

------
hhyubb
Why would you go to a pay toilet when you can just grab a beer and use that
place's toilet?

------
j7ake
Going to great lengths to not use a pay toilet is OK if the only person who
suffers is yourself. Once you have a family your priorities change.

Many of Stallman's advice works well when you are a bachelor... But once you
have family to think about, the arguments are less persuasive.

------
maverick_iceman
Taking this view to its logical conclusion will be that all private businesses
should be illegal. Such experiments were tried in large parts of the world in
the 20th century. We all know how they turned out.

------
johnchristopher
So we can't have political thread anymore but three stallman op-ed on the same
day is okay ?

Is today's date going to be the annual stallman-right-or-wrong-you-discuss
day?

------
noobermin
Click on his home page and there's a 17 items in a list at the top of " _What
's bad about:_"

------
DiabloD3
Where in the fuck are there pay toilets?

Is this a foreign thing?

~~~
ekns
Random examples from recent experience:

Some exist in Finland (at least in Helsinki).

Also saw one recently in a train station in Belgium, and IIRC a train station
in the Netherlands.

Also in the North of Argentina near some bus station, where you would pay
directly to someone apparently responsible for cleaning/maintaining them.

~~~
gerbal
In Germany many public restrooms have an attendant who you pay and can
complain to if the toilet is dirty or lacking toilet paper.

------
JackPoach
That's one crappy post. I can't believe Stallman is taking a dump on pay
toilets. He should really piss off.

------
hxsatvv
hxsatvv: Reasons Not to Pay Attention to Anything Richard Stallman Says

------
fiatjaf
So you can pay for toilets, but you choose to use free toilets. You're making
these free toilets worse by your usage and creating incentive for them to
become paid, only making things worse for those who cannot pay.

~~~
kodfodrasz
Basically this was the mechanism the USA won the cold war against the USSR.
Now almost all former socialist states are capitalist, because they went
bankrupt.

~~~
Normal_gaussian
That makes no sense.

You are saying that the USSR went bankrupt because people were trying to use
things in it for free?

Surely it has a lot more to do with the political oppression and top down
control of the economy.

~~~
kodfodrasz
People in this topic are arguing for free toilets paid by the government. Now
what is that if not a top down control of economy?

~~~
Normal_gaussian
They aren't preventing private toilets - free or otherwise - being created.
Pretty simple.

