
Bus Drivers Working in Silicon Valley Struggle to Afford Rent - anigbrowl
http://abcnews.go.com/US/bus-drivers-working-alongside-silicon-valley-millionaires-struggle/story?id=44707434
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tmh79
From what I see, the spin on this phenomena in this story is incorrect. The
real story here isn't the tech companies, its the lack of available housing in
the area due to a decades long aversion to building more housing and a huge
jobs/housing imbalance amongst almost every city in the SFBA. The real answer
is not raising wages to increase competition for a fixed amount of housing,
but to increase the amount of housing such that the needs of these workers can
be met.

~~~
jmspring
Typical HN response. If an area is basically built out (which most of Silicon
Valley is), how do you build more housing?

And no, the answer is _not_ change zoning laws and build apartment towers --
places like Mountain View, Palo Alto, Cupertino, Saratoga, even San Jose --
aren't going to suddenly build dense housing on residential lots.

~~~
jmspring
Down vote with no comment on reality of Bay Area housing dynamics? I'm a
native, lived from the east bay down to Santa Cruz.

The answer to every housing problem is not build more density. Sorry, the
valley was built as a suburban sprawl and you have generations of families on
parcels as well as recently purchased.

Newly constructed housing in Morgan Hill, an hour+ commute to Silicon Valley
during peak rush hour is still $1M plus.

Love the down votes without comment.

~~~
2trill2spill
> The answer to every housing problem is not build more density. Sorry, the
> valley was built as a suburban sprawl and you have generations of families
> on parcels as well as recently purchased.

Sorry the answer to every housing crisis is build more housing your attitude
is the exact reason why housing is so expensive in the bay area. I mean you
could try to reduce demand but good luck with that, and if you can't reduce
demand you have to increase supply.

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raincom
Its been going on since late 90's. I used to work as a security guard in 2002
and 2003. Guardsmark, a security guard contracting co, then used to provide
good health insurance to its employees; so, they had to charge more for their
services. Then, other contracting companies were like: we can provide the same
service with less money. I worked for the latter companies as well: no health
insurance. In the end, the companies who get services from these contracting
companies, see how much they save by selecting the lowest bidder.

This is happening in IT contracting too. Not every one who works in IT is a
rock star programmer. So, companies contract out to contracting companies
(like offshore Infosys, TCS, etc; onsite ones like Robert Half, etc). You see,
how wages of non-rockstar IT workers have diminished since 2000. Who is making
the killing? Of course, the contracting companies like Infosys, Robert Half.
The recruiters don't make much; the workers get less.

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protomyth
I do love the "we contract to a third party" line used by multiple companies.
It's pretty much the H1B body shop contracting applied to service jobs. Just
because you hired someone else shouldn't mean you are off the hook for what
you are well aware is going on.

I still think split shifts should be illegal unless compensated.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
It also allows the company to talk about how "all of its employees" get X, Y,
and Z, without bearing the costs of providing those perks to everyone who
works for them.

Imagine if Google had to provide their legendary perks to all of their
'contractors'... The scale of buildout that would be required.

~~~
packetslave
There's only so much that companies can do to provide non-salary compensation
(like perks) to contractors and vendors without getting in trouble legally.
Blame 80's Microsoft for screwing things up for everybody by abusing their
contractors.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
My inclination was less that tech companies should abuse their contractors,
but that tech companies should actually directly employ people that pretty
much solely work for them.

~~~
packetslave
Not implying at all that tech companies are deliberately abusing their
contractors. My point was that because Microsoft _did_ do so back in the 80's
(and got slammed by the courts for it), now everybody is scared to even
_appear_ to treat contractors the same as FTEs.

I don't know all the ins and outs of FTE vs contractor vs vendor (I'm a geek,
not an HR person), but presumably there are business reasons for choosing one
over the other. "One's cheaper" is an obvious one, but there are probably
others (taxes? liability? who knows. me write code).

There are definitely cases where job functions at major tech companies have
been converted from vendor/contractor to FTE (Google physical security
officers is one I personally know of. Presumably there are others).

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ashwinne
This seems to be just a fraction of a bigger TV piece by ABC called My
Reality: A Hidden America.

Some other portions of it found on Youtube:

* Firefighter with 3 jobs: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll_8lgs9GCQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll_8lgs9GCQ)

* Fastfood worker: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I28_9eAwEW4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I28_9eAwEW4)

* Stanford U worker who commutes 4 hours: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T3O4Xat1C0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T3O4Xat1C0)

I don't live in the US, but the situation in these videos looks pretty sad.

~~~
2ion
Likewise; but one thing I've noticed is that most of the people in these
videos support families. The reality is, the new lower middle class cannot
support families with a single provider anymore.

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santaclaus
> In Silicon Valley, amidst the luxury homes

Are there really that many 'luxury' homes? When I'm down in the valley it
mostly looks like run of the mill suburbs.

~~~
snarfy
Many of those 'run of the mill homes' have seven figure prices. They may not
be luxury but they have luxury prices.

~~~
umanwizard
that's the point

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binaryapparatus
Non-American here so I may not fully understand mindset causing this.
Simplistic question but why stay in that area then? Why not move somewhere
where house can be afforded and which doesn't require 'three hours of sleep'.

Nobody can work on three hours per day sleep pattern so this story can't be
entirely true.

If I am working 18 hours per day, no matter how much money I make (enough or
not) having no life at all makes it all irrelevant.

~~~
WhitneyLand
Great question. A few reasons I've heard are:

1) Have many family members nearby. Besides wanting to be near them it also is
a support network they would lose.

2) If your not skilled it's not easy to find decent jobs, especially remotely.
There are no recruiters calling.

3) It cost money to pick up and relocate. Even if it's only hundreds dollars
that is an obstacle when you have zero disposable income,

Still, it seems like it could be good idea when there is no chance of ever
prospering in SV.

~~~
ikeyany
Why did you only cite reasons that seem innocent? Why not cite selfish reasons
as well?

~~~
WhitneyLand
Because none came to mind. Why would people selfishly want to live in a
vehicle with towels on the windows?

~~~
ikeyany
That isn't their goal, it's a side effect of prioritizing other values, some
of which are selfish.

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advisedwang
It sounds like the bus company believes employees can magically be available
only at certain hours, and in between they need neither pay nor facilities nor
respect. Can anyone really work a split shift and actually use the time
between for anything constructive?

~~~
eskil
Possibly, like driving for Uber/Lyft, shopping for Instacart or dogwalking in
the time between since they have their own cars at the depot.

But the problem would still be the extremely long day. Ending with them having
to drive a bus at the end of the shift, utterly exhausted.

~~~
disillusioned
In very possible violation of DOT rules.

------
ghughes
This is a stain on our industry, and I hope the drivers continue to unionize.
The buses are the only reason that the big South Bay tech companies can
attract significant quantities of engineers from SF and the East Bay. I think
you'd see a significant exodus if SF-based employees suddenly had to deal with
101 and 280 on a daily basis.

~~~
jimmywanger
> The buses are the only reason that the big South Bay tech companies can
> attract significant quantities of engineers from SF and the East Bay.

That's simply not true. According to this highly flawed study, 50% of people
would still drive in the buses didn't run.
[http://blog.sfgate.com/techchron/2014/01/21/study-40-percent...](http://blog.sfgate.com/techchron/2014/01/21/study-40-percent-
of-s-f-shuttle-riders-would-move-without-chartered-bus-service/)

Also, SF has a Google office. I'm not quite sure where you're coming up with
these unfounded conjectures from.

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CaliforniaKarl
I have a suggestion: When you get off the bus, once you've made sure that it's
safe to exit, turn your head towards the driver, raise your hand, and say in a
loud, clear voice, "Thanks very much!" If exiting from the front door, raising
your hand isn't necessary, and you don't have to be loud, but you must still
thank your driver.

You have just put your life (or at least, your current physical condition) in
the hands of someone who probably makes less than you do in wages. It is
important that you provide proper respect and thanks, and simply ignoring them
as you exit does not meet that requirement.

This is something I routinely do as I exit the VTA and Marguerite busses I
ride; it's interesting how, once I do that, the other behind me start to as
well.

Note: I'm not just referring to any specific kind of bus, I'm referring to all
kinds of busses here.

~~~
disillusioned
While that's very considerate of you, and graciousness is not without merit, I
don't think the drivers can feed their families on your appreciation.

~~~
CaliforniaKarl
You're right, they can't. But, think of it this way: At that particular
moment, I have a choice:

1) I can exit the bus without saying anything.

2) I can exit the bus while thanking the driver for getting me to where I
wanted to go.

Option 1 is the status quo. Option 2 hopefully puts the driver into better
spirits, which hopefully helps them to go about their day a little better.

I am extremely limited on what I can do to affect the situation, so I would at
least like to do what I can!

~~~
pfarnsworth
That is truly, and quite literally, the least you can do. Don't pat yourself
on the back too hard.

~~~
preordained
What would you do, besides nothing? Maybe his gesture isn't much, but its not
nothing. _Nothing_ is nothing.

~~~
pfarnsworth
I already thank absolutely everyone who helps me or provides me a service. I
just don't pat myself on the back or act like I'm a fucking genius saint for
something so mundane and trivial.

------
RichardHeart
I like how working from home reduces waste transition time. If any companies
can make remote work effective, its Silicon Valley companies. Save the
environment, and the health of your team by not forcing them to play the road
rage lottery every week day.

~~~
Decade
If anything, communication technology is making things worse. Used to be that
doing tech meant needing to buy and run computers. Now only a small number of
companies actually house the computers, and everybody else uploads to them. So
everybody is free to move where they have the most access to other techies and
venture capital resources, in particular, the San Francisco Bay Area.

------
mavieengris
Another problem is that the law prevents tech companies from hiring workers
that live closer to their office. There are plenty of people in East Palo Alto
who would love a job driving a bus at nearby Facebook. However, Facebook is
not legally allowed to discriminate based on prospective employee's home
address.

This is unfortunately as companies like Facebook aren't able to help the local
communities around it's office. And when bus drivers who live hours away get
hired, they complain about the long commute.

~~~
jimmywanger
> There are plenty of people in East Palo Alto who would love a job driving a
> bus at nearby Facebook.

There are plenty of people anywhere who would like to drive a bus for
Facebook. Why would you favor people who live closer?

That drives an even bigger line between people who live close to Silicon
Valley and those who live further away.

~~~
mavieengris
From the article, the big complaint the bus drivers have is that their commute
is very long and they cannot go home between shifts. This wouldn't be an issue
if people who lived locally were chosen for these jobs.

I'm not sure if you're familiar with east palo alto (and east menlo park), but
it is a far different place from the rest of palo alto. Due to a long history
of racial segregation, east palo alto hasn't had the success and wealth of the
rest of silicon valley.

I think we both agree that there is a "line" between the haves and have-nots.
However, the line also exists inside of silicon valley. Giving jobs to the
poorer and forgotten residents of silicon valley shouldn't be viewed as
discrimination against other unemployed people living elsewhere.

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claudiug
for a country like USA, I found this video quite sad. We also have issues in
Germany, we also have our problems

but zero vacation.

no sick days.

working from 3.am to 11 am.

sleeping in a car.

I don't judge, is just makes ma sad.

~~~
kombucha2
Makes you wish companies weren't able to abuse the H1B program and the nature
of the independent contractor/employer relationship.

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dba7dba
In the case of silicon beach, it is the tech companies that sparked this. They
moved in to Santa monice and nearby areas. In a matter of 5 years or so price
of detached houses in near by cities (with decent commute meaning no driving
on 405 freeway) jumped up 100%. When google and other tech companied moved
in,'investors' saw the sign and started gobbling up houses to raze or remodel
to flip. And you also have Chinese from China following the trend.

Some higher density condo/apartment were built nearby but I really don't see a
sign they are even half occupied. It is definitely the tech companies that
sparked it. Not their fault necessarily.

~~~
TACIXAT
Sorry, but that's just not the case. I grew up in Santa Monica / Venice. My
family moved there in 98 or 99. Houses were 300k. That area has been
consistently rising since then. You'd be hard pressed to find a house in Santa
Monica for less than 1 million five years ago. Well before Snapchat showed up.
There has been so much wealth in that area for a long time.

I see people on FB complaining about rental prices then turning around and
complaining about the parking structure and high density housing being built
around them. It's one of the most plesant (climate) places on the planet. Tech
didn't drive the demand.

~~~
dba7dba
I agree Santa Monica, Manhattan Beach, and other cities directly bordering
Pacific beach were already expensive and rising steadily. But the cities I was
talking are places like Westchester, El Segundo, and Culver City.

Detached house price in Culver City definitely doubled in 5 years.

Tech didn't drive the demand for all of Southern California but for local
markets that I mentioned, it definitely did.

~~~
JBlue42
Here's a chart from The Economist[1]:

[http://imgur.com/a/5DfUi](http://imgur.com/a/5DfUi)

Across all the other charts for other cities (outside Detroit) you can see
variations of the pattern of things just skyrocketing in the late 90s. There
was a dip when in '08 but things are getting back to the way they in the mid-
aughts.

I don't think it's all tech thought that might have had a greater effect in
certain areas (such as the changes in Venice). Median income for the city is
still around 28k yet house and rental prices are insane. We're in the middle
of a building boom but it hasn't really added "value" apartments - the rates
are still top of the market.

Now we have anti-development measures hitting elections right and left.

I really don't get it. If was able to buy a home in 80s, and I still had had
steady employment throughout, raised kids, etc. and saw the value of my house
skyrocket, what does it matter if someone builds more apartments or condos and
the value goes down a little? I don't get dividends from owning that house.
And I'll most likely die in it.

The whole fight seems to not be about home values when the value really only
matters if you plan on moving, which, as others have stated, can be pretty
rare due to family and other ties to communities.

This might also beg another questions: When looking at places like the anti-
gentrification efforts in Boyle Heights, is it about being priced out of the
neighborhood (because of Prop 13, your tax rate is set right?) or something
more than that?

I debate every day whether it's worth staying in this city and I have it much
better than other folks that might not have a choice.

[1]
[http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2016/08/daily-c...](http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2016/08/daily-
chart-20)

------
confounded
For those in the Bay who want improved conditions for the
cooks/drivers/cleaners that keep their companies rolling, it's worth going
along to a meeting of the Tech Workers Coalition[0] (IRL or hangouts).

[0]: [https://techworkerscoalition.org/](https://techworkerscoalition.org/)

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krakensden
Dear bus companies: please do not fire anyone who gave a quote for this story
:(

~~~
djsumdog
Does California have anti-retaliation laws?

~~~
CaliforniaKarl
You'd still have to afford the lawyer, and/or have the time to work for
change.

------
tritosomal
And so, please cue the self-driving-car argument, because everybody knows that
the suffering would stop, if only these buses could drive themselves.

~~~
djsumdog
I got so sick of all the self-driving car news I wrote this a few weeks back:

[http://penguindreams.org/blog/self-driving-cars-will-not-
sol...](http://penguindreams.org/blog/self-driving-cars-will-not-solve-the-
transportation-problem/)

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jmspring
The reality of owning in the Bay Area, the history, and the current state of
affairs is apparently so far from what the utopia HN would propose... you
aren't suddenly turning a 30yo Ranch development into a source for housing...

The innocence and lack of experience in the market is ... cute

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rocky1138
This is how capitalism is supposed to work. The market is saying the value of
driving a bus as a job is effectively zero, something I agree with and very
much look forward to the day of robot buses.

------
reddytowns
Cue the shaming comments of how every company has a moral responsibility to
make sure everyone working for them has a good life.

At least they are paying these workers something. Where is your contribution
to their well being? I mean besides writing some smarmy comment steeped in
indignation thay no one will take seriously.

Do you feel like you've done your part, yet?

~~~
djsumdog
I'm doing my part. I'm leaving Seattle. I see how bad it is here and what tech
companies have done to housing prices and it's terrible. I hate it here.

I realize I'm just one worker. I'm not going to make a hill of difference in
leaving. But it's all that I can do.

People I know in non-tech jobs struggle just to survive here. It's not right.

~~~
jimmywanger
> what tech companies have done to housing prices

Tech companies haven't done anything to housing prices. It's people who are
convinced that housing is an investment instead of a highly leveraged
depreciating asset that block new construction, changing of existing zoning
laws, and drive housing prices up.

People in any sort of jobs struggle to survive everywhere. What's your point?

~~~
ikeyany
> It's people who are convinced that housing is an investment

Our society is structed such that it is a convincing argument. If tech
companies aren't at fault, how are citizens who are doing what they can to get
by in this cut-throat world at fault?

