

Ask HN: Are irrelevant degrees at all useful? - corin_

I've seen discussions on HN before on the question of "is a degree neccesary for career advancement", and given I'm happy with where I am at age 20, without a degree, I'm of the opinion that while a degree might help, it certainly isn't always a requirement.<p>However I would like to go to University (I left school at sixteen as I was bored and wanted to sink my teeth into something more useful), and am looking at working towards a place at Oxford starting September 2012.<p>Here's the thing: the subject I would really like to study is Music, rather than one of the many degrees that is actually related to where I currently work and where I hope my career will lead me (CS/Business/Marketing/etc).<p>Can anyone give me any thoughts on how you would feel if you were looking to hire someone in that kind of area, and they held a Music Degree from Oxford? Obviously I understand that it wouldn't be AS useful as a relevant degree, but would it at least serve as a demonstration that I'm not completely dim, that I know how to apply myself, and that I can achieve what I set out to?<p>Thanks,
Corin
======
byrneseyeview
Degrees are for signaling. If you want to signal that you're as smart as a
typical CS or Business student, pick a program they would drop out of (Math
instead of CS, Economics instead of Business). If you just pick music, it's
not a strong indicator of your skills.

I used to work as a recruiter, and the candidate for whom I got the most
interview requests _ever_ had a triple-major: music, physics, and math. You
don't have to go that far, but if you can minor in math at a minimum, it's a
good idea.

~~~
donw
This made me smile a little bit; I majored in Math because I thought CS would
be too easy.

~~~
geebee
I was a math major too, but no way would I consider CS to be too easy.

~~~
donw
Note the past tense.

------
SandB0x
If you love music and like the degree structure go for it. You'll be able to
do plenty of things with your time and talents that will look good if applying
to marketing or business jobs. Have you ever tried to organise rehearsals or
land gigs? It takes a lot of work.

And if someone won't employ you because you didn't do management courses or
some other silly criteria, trust me you don't want to work there.

The other way round is fine too. I know plenty of seriously accomplished
musicians (at an Other university) who were chemists, mathematicians,
historians, you name it. The orchestras and ensembles are of an extremely high
standard - you won't be short of opportunities.

~~~
corin_
I haven't organised any musical events (though do have a lot of experience in
music that I won't go into) - though for the company I work for I've organised
two events which saw 40k-75k paying visitors through the doors over 4/5 days,
and also done freelance event work for companies ranging from small 1-2 person
projects up to a couple of (very small) events organised by News Corp, so I do
have experience in that area.

As much as I love music, I don't want a career in that area, not any more,
just looking to do the degree as something I've wanted to do since I was 8.

------
Goladus
Music is a good major. You get exercise in creativity, abstract thinking, and
problem-solving. Music requires discipline and practice, the latter in
particular being something that programmers and IT people sometimes forget
about. The actual act of performing and its associated pressures are generally
not encountered in Csci and Math.

But music is definitely NOT a replacement for either. After discrete math,
linear algebra, and algorithms, advanced music theory felt like elementary
arithmetic. I've never taken any music theory class that was as mentally
demanding as compiler design (although with music there is a lot of room to
seek greater challenges on your own).

I don't know about business or marketing. But if you do go music I would
definitely try and cherry-pick some good classes from those other majors.

------
loumf
The hard part will be getting past resume screens and other less sophisticated
filters. If I picked up a resume and it was 80% about music, I'd probably skip
over it, but if it was 80% relevant and had music, then I'd think it was
interesting and read it more carefully.

It will also be vital for you to have a persuasive cover letter.

Finally, when it comes down to it, you have to have the required technical
skills -- so take some CS classes, and perhaps find interesting ways to
combine the two.

~~~
j_baker
I'd assume that you would look at it a bit differently if you were in the
music business though.

------
arethuza
Got for it - if you have the drive to get into Oxford and through the degree
then, to be honest, I suspect the exact content of the course isn't that
important. (I know very successful people who did degrees at Oxford in
classics).

Actually, I personally would look on someone who does a music degree rather
positively as it is the kind of course that only someone who has a passion for
the subject is likely to do, rather than doing something purely for the
career/earning prospects.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
>I know very successful people who did degrees at Oxford in classics

Isn't that like half of the UK cabinet for the last few hundred years?

------
rdouble
I double majored in the two most irrelevant degrees, philosophy and
mathematics. The main skill this has imparted upon me is superhuman-like
bullshit detection. While useful, this has proven to be rather depressing, as
bullshit is in no short supply.

If I could do it over again, I would have majored in music.

~~~
tpanzarella
I would not classify mathematics as irrelevant. Math serves as the foundation
for all of science and engineering. I would bet that most CS and Engineering
grad students (and industry professionals) wish they had a stronger
mathematics background ... even those with strong mathematics backgrounds ;-)

~~~
ido
Can't talk about Engineers, but as a professional programmer of 9 years with
many years of undergraduate and graduate (M.Sc) Mathematics education, I must
say I rarely/never use any of the math I've learned (at least not something I
wouldn't have learned as an undergrad CS major) at work.

I have heard your argument very often though, it seems about as popular as the
one that states painters benefit from knowledge of Chemistry[1] ;)

[1]
[http://www.idlewords.com/2005/04/dabblers_and_blowhards.htm#...](http://www.idlewords.com/2005/04/dabblers_and_blowhards.htm#6)

~~~
dtegart
As a former automotive engineer, I can say I didn't use my math much either.
In fact engineering in my experience was mostly project management, the degree
just gave you the background to work with everyone else.

------
ekanes
Real answer: Follow your passion. If music moves you, go for it.

Discussion: About whether or not it "helps your career", I think the counter-
argument would be not so much that it doesn't help, but the opportunity cost
of your time/money. What _else_ could you be doing over that time.

In other words, compare "Music vs What Else I Could Do", and not Music vs
Nothing

~~~
corin_
I currently have a job that keeps me mentally stimulated, interested and
learning new skills on a daily basis, and I would be able to continue (either
part time or, if I were to chose a relatively easy degree at a different
university then possibly even full time, as a friend of mine is currently
doing in Birmingham).

I'd love to get a degree in Music, but balancing that fact with the amount of
time it uses up I'm on the fence, so really the reason for asking the question
was to see how far over the fence people would push me.

------
donw
Music is far from an irrelevant degree; it actually requires surprisingly
sophisticated mathematics, and you emerge with a genuine skill.

Irrelevant degrees are things like 'asian studies' or 'art history', where you
learn how to criticize _without_ learning to create.

------
michael_dorfman
I've hired a lot of programmers, and a music degree from Oxford is something
I'd view as a plus, provided you could demonstrate that you also have the
necessary technical skills.

Personally, I was a philosophy major.

~~~
kenthorvath
_Personally, I was a philosophy major._

As was I, along with Biochemistry, Molecular Biology, and Physics.

Philosophy was by far my most important and relevant major. It taught me how
to think and express myself logically and to identify specious reasoning - two
things which are invaluable in life.

In fact, I know of at least one Philosophy major that Apple hired as an iPhone
engineer.

They should really teach Philosophy in high school - it's a much better way to
learn to read and write than English class, and the payoff is you learn to
think for yourself and not simply quote authors like Shakespeare.

~~~
hugh3
Out of curiosity, where can you have four different majors? (We didn't have
official "majors" at all where I went to uni, but I always thought they were
something of which you only had one or two.)

If you're studying four subjects in your final year, how do you go into any
depth in them?

~~~
kenthorvath
I was on the 8-year plan...

I love learning, and couldn't decide on a single major. First I was planning
on CS / Math, but wound up taking a physics course, asking the right
questions, and the professor hired me to do research for him and put me on the
honors track. As long as I was matriculated as a physics major, I had a
scholarship and a pay check waiting. I also happened to love it. Because my
University didn't allow more than two courses to overlap between majors, I
wound up taking enough math courses to otherwise have majored in it, but it
didn't count.

In my senior year, I took philosophy to satisfy a writing requirement. It was
analytical philosophy. Logic and reason was valued above all. We discussed the
problem of other minds, philosophy of religion, and a broad array of other
things I had always pondered. In fact, I thought I must have been the only kid
in kindergarten wondering how I could be certain that my parents were actually
conscious beings and not just bags of molecules. How could I know for
_certain_ that they had a mind and consciousness in the same way that I did?
When I found out that you could get paid to think about these things and teach
people how to think, I was hooked. I decided to double major, and spent an
extra year filling all of the requirements.

After graduating (the first time) I spent 6 months working at a local
bookstore, deciding what track I wanted my life to take. I could teach high
school physics, I could get a PhD in physics (though I was getting tired of
seeing divs, grads, and curls every time I closed my eyes). I could become a
philosophy PhD and later professor, which sounded like a dream job, but was
difficult in practice to obtain.

Then it occurred to me that I didn't know much about biology and my own body.
I would be stuck with it for the rest of my life, so I thought maybe I'd go to
medical school. The problem was two-fold. I didn't meet the pre-requisite
coursework for applying, and my grades were not competitive (I never handed-in
homework. I studied things for their own sake and not for the grades.)

After watching a few UC Berkeley lectures on chemistry and biology, I decided
I loved biology. I returned to my University to get a degree in some form of
biology. I wanted to learn it very well, get great grades, and I chose the
hardest sub-discipline with the fewest students: molecular biology and
biochemistry.

I was amazed to discover that when I actually tried and cared, I was at the
top of every class. I graduated again, with a 4.0 and applied to medical
school.

Amazingly, even with these credentials, a large body of research, and a very
competitive MCAT score I was still only accepted to a few schools.

I wound up getting into a combined MD/PhD program, which was an additional 3
years over regular medical school, but allowed me to conduct research. It also
came with full tuition and a stipend.

I'm now in my third year and doing research at the NIH. I have five more years
until I graduate for the final time.

In retrospect, I could have forgone almost all of college and just audited the
courses that interested me. In fact, I believe that college is of only
marginal value to most people. Most of the skill set I acquired I learned in
high school, on my own, with books and computers.

Without college, however, I would never have gotten into medical school. It is
definitely necessary for some things.

------
transmit101
I studied the course linked to below at University of Sussex, which is a
combination of Computer Science, AI and classical Music.

[http://www.cogs.susx.ac.uk/courses/music-
informatics/overvie...](http://www.cogs.susx.ac.uk/courses/music-
informatics/overview.php)

------
sophacles
I have a Bachelors degree in Geography. I work at a university doing systems
programming for a research group in electrical systems and security. I have
been published more than once. I will be doing some fun research this year
about big data. The only thing my degree content has been used for so far is
one time when I was talking to a GIS company about some work related displays,
I spoke the language correctly.

The most important role my degree has played: I was able to get a "College
degree required" job. The importance of this cannot be understated. Many
places will not consider you without the piece of paper, whether it is related
or not is much less important. The paper itself signifies the ability to get
through 4 years of doing something.

------
culebron
An irrelevant degree takes some years that you could invest into a working
experience, and more importantly, it delays maturity. But it can give you a
valuable knowledge (of course, if you earn grades for real things, not for
imitating some nonsense). This is hard to learn in everyday life.

I program in Python and earlier was a DB developer, but have an economics
masters degree. The most useful thing of this degree was maths and games
theory that surprisingly comes to conclusions on things like morale, honesty
and dignity, and shows that they're not relative as the classic economics
implies.

~~~
corin_
I've already got four years of (in my opinion quality) working experience, and
to be honest I think that most of the overall life-lessons that a music degree
could teach me I already have - the biggest reason I want to do it is learning
more about the subject, than using it as a way to improve myself in other
areas.

(I asked HN more to see if it would give the impression of having improved my
other areas, than if it would)

------
tmsh
The thing to be cognizant of, I think, is that CS/Business/Marketing at a
University are already disconnected from the business world somewhat. The
problems they solve are already more abstract and academic (in a good sense).
So people are already negotiating the realities of business v. the academic
analogs, etc. Music, on top of it all, is perhaps the most abstract field in
the humanities (philosophy has systems of ideas, literature has words, the
visual arts have images but music has predominantly...sounds?). That's not to
say Oxford or any good university wouldn't provide you with invaluable habits
and attitudes about learning for the rest of your life. But if you think about
it as an investment, apart from what hiring managers will think, you're
potentially exposing yourself to a pretty heavy load of abstraction. However,
as long as you're aware of it, you can balance it with other things
(organizing gigs as mentioned is a good idea), or do them later (or even while
you're there -- sit in on CS lectures, read the books on your own, etc.).

------
Random_Person
I would think it depends a lot on what you want to do after obtaining your
degree. If you want to work for the Government, go for it. Federal, State and
Local governments do not care what kind of degree you have, as long as you
have one.

If you want to work in the private sector, I would suppose that all depends on
your target company. Some HR people see a degree as an accomplishment and do
not worry themselves much about the specifics of your degree. Some, however,
feel that you simply must have a relevant degree to understand your job even
though you will learn almost all of your job duties on-site.

I am 31 and started college about 2 months ago. I work for the state Board of
Education and a degree = pay raise. I administer several large Windows
domains, do basic hardware/software tech, and plan/integrate networks. The
state does not care if I have a degree in computers or gymnastics. I get the
same pay raise regardless. They don't care if it is Ivy league or University
of Phoenix (which I am doing by the way.)

------
ig1
For CS: Firms generally look for CS or a related degree (Maths, elec eng,
etc.) - although if you can prove you can program (open source projects, etc.)
they may well be flexible. Typically for most degrees you can do a few "open
units" in other subjects, so if you did some in CS that would help as well.

For Business/Marketing: Specific degree is less important, although some firms
prefer degrees with mathematical content. Again having relevant extra-
curricular activities or internships are much more important if your degree is
in an different subject.

It's worth noting that most people (~60%) go on to careers completely
unrelated to their degree so don't worry too much about it.

Feel free to email me if you want more advice, I used to run a non-profit that
did analysis on degree -> career paths in the UK so I'm pretty familiar with
the area.

~~~
corin_
I'm confident I can gain experience for any area I might want to go into in
the future - where I am currently, mainly focussing on marketing with an
slight techy twist, I've created expensive advertising campaigns for companies
like Dell, AMD and PC World, having had no experience prior to this job, plus
on the side I've played a big part in various events, and management of 20 or
so servers/websites.

Basically the last few years I've been doing my best to build up experience in
as many of the areas that interest me as possible, partly because I love what
I'm doing and partly because I want my CV to be non-restricting to any future
path I might want to take.

------
midnightmonster
I double majored in English and philosophy because that was what I wanted to
study and the kind of school I wanted to go to. I didn't expect it to help me
get a job, and sure enough it didn't. I ended up doing a mix of non-
programming employment and moonlighting as a consultant for several years
until I had enough skill, discipline, and network to become a full-time
consultant a couple years ago--which was when life kicked my family off a
cliff and called, "Hope you figured out that flying thing!"

Thankfully, I've been flying since then. So if you habitually choose your life
based on what you think is best not easiest, and you have some reasonably well
founded confidence that you can make it work out regardless, study whatever
you want to study. Just don't expect anyone to give you credit for it until
sometime after you don't need their regard.

------
mfukar
First off, I don't think the lack of a degree brands at all someone as dense
or slow. Also, depending on the degree and school it's received from, the
holder's persistence and/or determination can be generally deduced.

However, I would not choose to hire someone who didn't have a clue about the
general area the job offer was on, regardless of what the job specifically
required. I would rather try and judge her suitability from a personal
interview, instead of a few lines on her resume. For technical tasks, you
don't have to be a CS grad to solve them. For research and development, I'd
value a formal background on CS more.

~~~
corin_
I certainly didn't mean to imply that people without a degree are dense or
slow, some of the brightest people I know never got a degree.

My point was more than the percentage of people with degrees who might be
considered "dense and slow" is going to be significantly lower than of people
without education, and I would imagine the difference is further highlighted
when the degree is from a university like Oxford.

I'd never suggest that person A who went to Oxford is smarter than person B
who went to a less-popular university, or none at all, without knowing more
about both people, I just think as an overall it works out that way (you don't
have to get a degree to be clever, you do have to be [reasonably] clever to
get a degree)

------
lhnz
It's Oxford. Any decent business should recognise the intelligence and
workload necessary to get a degree there.

edit: Of course, it's always best to do a relevant course, but it won't be the
end of the world.

------
vital101
At most Universities you can do a double major. If you know what you want
early on, this usually won't add much length to the time it takes to get your
degree.

If the double major doesn't work out, consider minoring in Music. My real
passion is history, so I did a major in Computer Science and a minor in
History.

------
mathgladiator
Degrees are like checkpoints in life.

While not required (at least at good companies that look for talented people
rather than degrees), they serve as a nice launching board (and as a
negotiating point for salary).

If you are passionate, then school is a great idea to get a breadth level
exposure to the field.

------
unshift
study what you like, not what anonymous recruiters and employers will have
presumably wanted you to study. i have a degree in CS (which is what i wanted
to study) but do wish i had a music minor or at least had some time to take
some real music courses in college.

when looking at hundreds of resumes for prospective hires, i don't think i
once looked at the school or degree somebody had. i barely looked at the
resume at all; past experience is nice to thumb through but conversation with
the candidate was the only real way to tell if they know what they're doing.

as for getting past anonymous HR resume scans, don't worry about it. nobody
can really get past those anyway. your best bet is and always will be inside
referrals.

------
Tycho
Just remember tbe opportunity cost of _not_ doing a relevant degree with those
four years. I graduated a few years ago with English Literature but I'm
kicking myself for not doing CS. I'd be so much more comfortable right now if
I had.

------
balding_n_tired
For computing I'd definitely be interested in somebody with a music degree--
music is said to have a strong correlation with programming ability.

Of business and marketing I know nothing at all.

------
noodle
an irrelevant degree will not hurt you. an irrelevant degree only has the
potential to help you, although whether or not it will actually "help" will
vary from job to job, HR person to HR person, etc..

------
gaius
Mind you don't get "Oxbridge syndrome"... Oops, too late.

~~~
corin_
I'm very aware that there are plenty of non-Oxbridge universities in the UK
(and elsewhere of course) that are of a high quality, my reasons for wanting
to go to Oxford specifically aren't (entirely) because of the name it's made
for itself.

\- Most of my ancestors on my mother's side went to Oxford or Cambridge, so
feels roughly inherited (no university on my Dad's side)

\- I've lived in Oxford all my life, and a.) love this city and b.) have grown
a sort of irrelevant pride for it (kind of a more localised patriotism)

\- I've very close personal ties with two colleges here at Oxford, one of
which is the one I'd like to attend

\- I happen to know a few professors at Oxford (all in Music, as it happens),
one of which is the director of music at the college I'd like to attend

The fact that "Oxford" on a CV traditionally looks better than some other
universities is just an added benefit, I'm not someone who would chose it
purely for that reason.

~~~
gaius
Indeed. There is practically no difference between the quality of any of the
Russell Group universities. But only Oxbridge graduates feel the need to
mention their college within 2 minutes of you meeting them.

~~~
corin_
May be true for some oxbridge students, but not all (and not me if I do end up
doing it)

~~~
gaius
You haven't even been there yet! And you already have.

~~~
corin_
I would have mentioned it had my university of choice not been Oxford
though...

