
Dr. Bronner's Soap Is Investing Millions into MDMA Research - nikse
https://www.inverse.com/article/32376-mdma-ptsd-ptsd-therapy-dr-bronners-soap
======
arikr
To the extent that anyone on HN knows an active philanthropist looking for
potentially highly impactful but severely underfunded causes - send them this
article.

I believe there's a case that funding MDMA research has very high
dollar/impact returns - or at least that it's likely enough that it's worth a
thorough exploration.

It sounds like they still need to raise about $10-15 million, which is
shockingly small compared to the ~$1.5bn/yr NIMH budget - and all of it will
come from private philanthropists, as governments aren't yet willing to fund
the work and for-profit companies don't see much profit yet due to the lack of
patentability.

If you're on HN and this is the first you're hearing about this research, some
resources:

\- A short video excerpt from a documentary on MDMA therapy -
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9iKx2MKS70](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9iKx2MKS70)

\- NY Times article - [https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/29/us/ptsd-mdma-
ecstasy.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/29/us/ptsd-mdma-ecstasy.html)

~~~
vmchale
>I believe there's a case that funding MDMA research has very high
dollar/impact returns - or at least that it's likely enough that it's worth a
thorough exploration.

Sort of? I'm sure there's potential, but you pay a lot of your grant money to
DEA licenses. Also, MDMA might be neurotoxic.

~~~
SamUK96
MDMA _is_ neurotoxic. Very much so too. I'm a little busy at the moment to
link to it, but there were a few studies years ago that did tests on chimps,
finding ultimately that MDMA gradually destroys neuron synapse receptors. You
could say that MDMA "wears out" the seratonin receptors on the neuron
synapses, i think is how the MSM phrased it from the studies...

Overall this causes a lot of problems, since, well, synapses are very
important! Mood, memory, motor function. You simply just get "generally more
brain damaged" in all areas. If you've ever seen a problematic user of
amphetamines, it's quite obvious. Microdosing, even though slightly
neurotoxic, maybe have benefits that outweigh it, a bit like the addiction and
general very slight brain damage that comes with Xanax and the like.

~~~
eternalvision
It is unfortunate that you've been downvoted. There's a bit of bias on HN when
discussion of potential harms of LSD, THC, and MDMA come up.

Your comment is factually correct and is a relevant counterpoint. It should
not have been downvoted.

~~~
anythingnonidin
> It is unfortunate that you've been downvoted. There's a bit of bias on HN
> when discussion of potential harms of LSD, THC, and MDMA come up.

> Your comment is factually correct and is a relevant counterpoint. It should
> not have been downvoted.

Sort of. I didn't downvote their comment, though I don't think it's
unfortunate that they were downvoted. Their comment is partially correct, but
also partially misleading/misinformed, so seems reasonable for it to be
downvoted.

> HN: MDMA _is_ neurotoxic.

At certain doses

Again,

> MDMA researcher Matthew Baggott: “To the best of my understanding, doses
> around 1.5-1.7 mg/kg MDMA (roughly 100 to 125 mg MDMA) are unlikely to cause
> long-lasting serotonin changes. Studies by MAPS have looked for changes in
> mental abilities after people participated in their studies, with some
> participants receiving 125 mg followed by 62.5 mg, and have not found any
> changes.” MAPS study protocol involves 3 - 5 week breaks, and a total of 2
> or 3 MDMA sessions in total.

[https://rollsafe.org/mdma-side-effects/](https://rollsafe.org/mdma-side-
effects/)

> Although there is considerable debate over how much MDMA it would take to
> cause damage to a human user’s brain, there is no real doubt that at some
> dosages damage can and will occur. Fortunately, brain damage doesn’t seem to
> happen at moderate recreational doses.

[https://dancesafe.org/drug-information/is-mdma-
neurotoxic/](https://dancesafe.org/drug-information/is-mdma-neurotoxic/)

> HN: Very much so too.

Subjective. Depends on dose. And your definition of very much.

> HN: Overall this causes a lot of problems, since, well, synapses are very
> important! Mood, memory, motor function.

Doesn't appear to be true in humans [http://www.prnewswire.com/news-
releases/harvard-study-publis...](http://www.prnewswire.com/news-
releases/harvard-study-published-in-addiction-shows-ecstasy-not-associated-
with-cognitive-decline-116226594.html)

> Today the journal Addiction published online the results of a neuroscience
> study finding no evidence of impaired cognitive performance in users of
> Ecstasy, the street name for the chemical known as MDMA.

> Since previous studies of the neurocognitive effects of Ecstasy did not
> address these issues, their reports of damage to memory, strategic planning,
> and other cognitive tasks may have been due to confounded study design
> rather than to Ecstasy itself.

> HN: Microdosing, even though slightly neurotoxic

? I think they might be confusing MDMA and LSD/other psychedelics, microdosing
MDMA is an exceptionally rare practice

\-----

To other readers, the most comprehensive summary of the research is here:
[https://www.mdmawiki.org/wiki/Is_MDMA_Neurotoxic%3F](https://www.mdmawiki.org/wiki/Is_MDMA_Neurotoxic%3F)

And regarding marijuana: [https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/01/05/marijuana-
much-more-th...](https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/01/05/marijuana-much-more-
than-you-wanted-to-know/)

And regarding LSD: [https://tripsafe.org/lsd-side-
effects/](https://tripsafe.org/lsd-side-effects/)

------
pmoriarty
_" People are starting to understand that when a certain drug is used
correctly, then it’s not a big deal. They don’t need to be afraid of it."_

This is the big takeaway that most of the world still doesn't understand. They
think that if a currently illegal drug is used, it is by necessity abused.
There is no room in their world view for illegal drug use that's not also
illegal drug abuse. It's going to take a lot to change this mindset.

~~~
ShabbosGoy
Can you ever use acid correctly? My understanding is the result is non-
deterministic every trip for the same individual.

~~~
kevinmchugh
There's a new trend called "microdosing" where acid is used in much smaller
amounts than typical to improve mood and productivity. The resulting effect is
apparently not very comparable to tripping. I don't know if it's possible or
practiced with other psychedelics.

~~~
stcredzero
_There 's a new trend called "microdosing" where acid is used in much smaller
amounts than typical to improve mood and productivity._

This was also a "new trend" in the early 90's.

~~~
collyw
If they are doing it in Silicon Valley then its a game changing disruptive new
trend.

------
celticninja
MDMA is ecstasy, sure it might not be what you get in pills these days, but it
started out as MDMA and it even came from therapists, then it turned into the
party drug, got mixed up with other things, similar compounds such as MDA and
MDEA were sold as ecstasy and then it became Molly. But ecstasy is and always
will be MDMA.

~~~
wavefunction
Molly was a slang term for 'pure' MDMA at least as far back as the late
nineties/early aughts, from 'molecule'. The usage was to differentiate from
'pressies' which were pressed-pills supposedly composed of MDMA plus binder
plus whatever the presser wanted to add, usually amphetamine though sometimes
DXM or methamphetamine.

Molly, in contrast, was sold in loose powder form, at least back then.

Contrary to urban legends, pressies were never made with heroin as the amount
of heroin required for any appreciable effect would be cost-ineffective.

Now, who knows what your 'molly' might contain. We just had two thirteen year-
olds in the area die from 'research chemicals' ordered off the internet by a
friend of theirs. People are taking all sorts of weird things that have
undergone zero testing, even when compared to the embargo that MDMA has faced.

~~~
senorjazz
I saw a documentary recently (ish). "what's in your baggie". Molly seemed to
be mostly methylone which comes under "bath salts" I think in the US.

But seems to be a generic term for MDMA (like) drugs

~~~
tuxidomasx
Yup, there can be many mixed results from powder/crystal MDMA sold as "molly"
that I can see why people go for pill presses much more since they are a bit
more standardized in terms of reviews and experiences (e.g. pillreports).

Much easier to have a consistent result when your presses come from a popular
and widely-known batch.

Unless you have a reagent test kit and want to do all that, it's best to have
a trusted source or go for the presses IMO.

That being said, my first experience was with MDMA in crystal form, and it was
the greatest thing ever.

~~~
vldx
Please note, when given press gain significant popularity, it's common to be
replicated by other "producers", and frequently the "counterfeit" pills are
containing less desirable compounds. Always test what you're about to take,
irrespective of the vendor/pill reputation -- reagent tests are cheap and
available even via Amazon Prime.

~~~
celticninja
Yup back in the day Mitsubishi pills were the new standard in purity, then
every pill became a Mitsubishi.

------
tuxidomasx
Research into the neurotoxicity would be very extremely beneficial. The usual
advice goes: "You need to protect your serotonin receptors from damage.
Antioxidants like Alpha Lipoic Acid are great for this, but in a pinch, a dose
of Vitamin C does the trick as well. Hence the advice to drink OJ with your
molly."

However, if there was a way to completely prevent damage to the brain and
eliminate tolerance, I think many many people would do MDMA every day.

~~~
anythingnonidin
To your first point: Yes, I wish we knew more.

To your second point: Quite a timely comment!

I released the results of a ~660 person study on MDMA tolerance/'loss of
magic' _this morning_ \- as far as I'm aware, this is the first study of this
kind.

[https://rollsafe.org/mdma-magic/](https://rollsafe.org/mdma-magic/)

If you have constructive criticism, that's always appreciated, or if you just
like it and find it useful, that's nice too.

~~~
tuxidomasx
Very cool study on the loss of magic. There has always been anecdotal advice
floating around about how to regain the 'magic', but it's good to have some
empirical evidence on what actually works.

One of the odd factors that I've heard of but didn't see listed was the
"someone new" factor. It maybe somewhat related to the "close friend" factor.
Basically, some people claim to regain some magic if you do it with someone
you just recently met or reconnected with who has a low tolerance (as opposed
to doing it with someone you're already familiar with). Maybe its the empathy
combined with the pleasure of making a new friend...

I've heard it makes a difference... but nothing beats supplements and
tolerance breaks IMO. lol

We definitely need more studies like this-- there's still so much we don't
know about MDMA.

~~~
anythingnonidin
Thanks for the kind words.

Very good point on the someone new factor. I'll look into that in future
studies.

Agreed on the desire for more research!

------
pklausler
Wait, is this the soap brand whose product labels are long crazy tracts in
very tiny print? I see these at my local co-op and always set them down
carefully and back away slowly.

~~~
mikeash
You shouldn't, it's great soap. Yes, the writing is extremely out there, but
it's unrelated. The founder was apparently somewhat unhinged (having your
family killed in the Holocaust does that to some people) but it didn't affect
the product, and he's dead now. The company keeps the labeling out of respect.

~~~
Alex3917
It also gets an Environmental Working Group score of zero, making it probably
the best cosmetic product on the market of any type.

------
theptip
A recent SSC post [1] made some interesting observations on why it might be
that there are no "traditional" psychopharmacological discoveries that have
anywhere near as strong and immediate effects as MDMA and ketamine.

In summary, most clinically developed chemicals are looking for small effects
with small side-effects. MDMA definitely does not have a "small effect" in the
therapeutic dose range (typically 100-150mg).

[1] [http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/06/05/is-pharma-research-
wors...](http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/06/05/is-pharma-research-worse-than-
chance/)

~~~
vldx
Yes, but on the other hand -- recently I've had a relatively persistent flu
and decided to visit a doctor. After ~10 minutes I've been prescribed
Levofloxacin antibiotic (w/o even doing blood work). I've bought the
antibiotic and even got some probiotics; back at home, I've decided to do
basic overview and research what I'm about to administer, as (luckily) I've
never been treated before w/ drugs of such group. As it turns out -- this
medicine do have frightening side effects, which may occur months even years
after the initial 5-day administration. The side effects are potentially life
long and may cause various disabilities. There are clinical studies which do
provide very strong evidences about these side effects; numerous class actions
against given pharmaceutical companies and blogs, where people are writing
about the hell they are going through.

I'm in EU, but FDA warns about these potential issues and recommend
prescribing fluoroquinolones as last line of treatment.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levofloxacin](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levofloxacin)

Honestly, I don't buy this argument about the numerous side-effects preventing
further reasearch of psychedelics.

Psylocibin/MDMA should be available for research and even as last line of
treatment, I believe, thousands of people will benefit.

~~~
theptip
That's a valid observation, but I'm inclined to think that doctors prescribe
lots of drugs because the FDA standards are so high (arguably too high). If
you essentially have zero liability for prescribing drugs because they have
all been shown to be safe, then there's no reason not to.

But the bottleneck isn't what doctors are willing to prescribe, it's what drug
companies are willing/able to get through FDA approval, which is a bit
different.

(To be clear, I'm in full support of further research into these chemicals;
just interested in all of the reasons that they are not as well researched.)

------
GuB-42
I don't think the pharmaceutical industry is turned off by the fact that the
MDMA patent has expired. If they see potential in marketing MDMA, they will do
it, and they will find a way to patent it somehow.

Just look at Adderall, it is just good old amphetamine, which turned out to be
very effective at treating ADHD. So instead of marketing amphetamine, they
marketed a specific mixture of different salts of d- and l- amphetamine. The
base molecule is not patentable, but their specific formulation is.

------
andrewstuart
The government has made it so hard to get clean, cheap, relatively safe drugs
like MDMA, that people who want to get high (which is alot of people), end up
taking what they can get.

And what they can get cheap and easy is crystal meth which is anything but
"relatively safe" and destroys lives and the community.

For goodness sake if the government want to stop the crystal meth epidemic,
then give them legal, cheap access to clean, professionally made "relatively
safe" drugs like MDMA.

People on real MDMA are not doing good things for their own personal health
but they certainly aren't being violent. Well heck actually maybe all that
dancing is good for their health.

------
matt_morgan
I'm all for this but this is not what I like to see in a funder for a
"research" project:

"We’re going to help alleviate the pain of a suffering population, and
generally I’m talking about veterans, but also individuals who are traumatized
by rape and other forms of violence,” Bronner tells Inverse. “That’s the
immediate goal. MDMA is such an incredible adjunct to therapy, and there’s
such an incredible need for it."

I.e., we already know it works?

------
poohbs
turns out it's the only way to get their label to make any sense.

all one!

(fantastic soap, though)

