
The Indian and his insatiable appetite for the college degree - stephenhacking
https://medium.com/design-startups/dc7566b63159
======
r0h1n
The fact that a formal engineering/MBA education isn't a prerequisite for
business success is almost a tautology now, especially among software
startups. So there is nothing new here.

There are some half-truths though:

> For some reasons, Indians just can’t deal with the fact that someone without
> pedigree can get somewhere in life.

\- Airtel, India's largest telecom company, was started by Sunil Mittal, armed
with just a Bachelor of Arts degree from a second-rung university.

\- Reliance Industries, India's largest private conglomerate, was started by
Dhirubhai Ambani, had no college degree.

\- The Zee TV group, one of India's largest media and entertainment
conglomerates, was started by Subhash Chandra, who dropped out of school after
class 12.

\- There are many more multi-billion dollar enterprises like Adani and Sobha,
that were founded by entrepreneurs without college degrees.

\- Quickheal, India's largest anti-virus company, was founded by Kailash
Katkar, never studied after school.

\- Maxx Mobile, one of the leading low-cost phone makers in India was founded
by Ajay Agarwal, a class 9 dropout.

I could go on.

By insisting that Indians "just can't deal with entrepreneurs without
pedigree", the author is at best being disingenuous, or at worst slaying a
straw man only to elevate his own achievements.

Finally, the stereotyping in the linkbait title, "The Indian and his
insatiable..." doesn't help. As others have already pointed out, people (not
just Indians, but around the world) make career/education choices in response
to the financial/cultural environment around them.

To the average middle-class parents who grew up dealing with scarcity, low
incomes, corruption and limited opportunities, the "multi-national job"
represents stability, meritocracy, global opportunities and a respectable
income.

There really is no reason to belittle them for their choices.

~~~
BWStearns
I would hardly say that he is belittling people in the situation you describe.
What he is attempting to discourage is the mentality that sticks to the
dogmatic cultural position even in the face of a) historical data indicating
that academic pedigree isn't a rock-solid predictor of success, and b) local
data indicating a higher than average likelihood of success for the individual
in question.

This is a specific example of a problem that every culture faces, which is
cultural memes that have taken on the form of divine wisdom. Not everyone will
be Mittal or Gates, in fact that population is a statistically non-existent
one; that doesn't mean that dropping out of college to run a startup is the
worst idea for any given person. Any culture shutting off that opportunity
regardless of the specific case will cost itself in lost opportunities.

And as an aside on the specific content, I am not Indian, but reading this I
couldn't help but remember my Indian friends' impressions of their aunts and
uncles admonishing them for doing something insane like getting an advanced
economic degree when they could have been a doctor or engineer.

~~~
kamaal
>>academic pedigree isn't a rock-solid predictor of success

Definition of success is extremely difficult to be given here.

I will give you a small example. Literacy is a big problem in India.
Unfortunately since you can't read or write, your access to information is
limited. This puts things like news papers and magazines outside your reach.
Access to any kind of information will be weak(Access to information is the
most thing for a person in the modern world)- You won't be able to make well
informed decisions about anything, your knowledge of current affairs will be
weak. Ultimately such a mass of people won't be able to make it big.

This is why basic education should be compulsory. Also these days knowledge of
the English language is extremely important to do any work with people of
other nations. English is not our native language or mother tongue. So we
learn it only in schools.

~~~
BWStearns
Clearly neither me nor OP is arguing against basic education. Nor that college
or advanced degrees are a good thing, so please get rid of that straw man
fast.

Additionally, the discussion on the authors post was primarily about those who
have developed some capability to "do" either outside the conventional school
system or at a particularly early point. This clearly limits the applicability
of the discussion to those who have in some fashion achieved access to
information and processed it well. This likely rules out illiterate people,
non-English speakers (specifically in Tech) and many others from the
discussion. I am not saying that their exclusion from information is a good
thing, clearly it is not. However, taking the median Indian and saying that
the best move in their situation should be encouraged universally is clearly
wrong, as is doing so in any culture/country, and I interpreted the article to
only be complaining about the dogmatic attachment to that "best path" even in
the face of demonstrated success.

------
kamaal
Firstly being entrepreneur and going to college are not orthogonal goals.

Secondly for any poor person in India, without any funding or support. No
infrastructure, no exposure and having to fight a historic burden of poverty
in the family. Not getting a college education means, the guy will eventually
end up working at a tailor's shop or a garage or driver. Working whole life
only to hope his son breaks of the cycle of poverty in the next generation.

Contrary to whatever you might think, you can't hard-work your way out of all
problems all the time, I know that from personal experience. For a rich person
a big financial failure means, a good decent chance to start up again. For a
lower middle class person such a failure means, the end of life. Full Stop!
Because the debts will drown you till you reach your grave.

The fact is for any lower middle/class and poor person. Getting a decent
education is the easiest way to get a job, and then use that money to
bootstrap their projects or start up.

You might not learn anything in a college, or a degree might not prep you up
for prime time rock star development shops. But it will get you a job, buy you
some financial freedom. And then you will have good enough time to iteratively
learn and bootstrap your own business.

And beyond all, not everyone's family can write them a check to start
something their teens or at any age. Most people live so hand to mouth,
without a monthly salary they are pretty much bust!

Before criticizing some one please take into note the fact, they don't enjoy
the same privileges and benefits as your do.

~~~
eriksank
>> Getting a decent "education" is the easiest way to get a job

The traditional education system WAS the easiest way to get a job. Nowadays,
it is the easiest way NOT to get a job.

Step 1: Download the 10 books x 4 (years) = 40 books of the average university
degree. Step 2: Unless it's mathematics, it is just literature. Read it. Step
3: Sit the 10 x 4 exams at an online college.

In most developed countries, you have just managed NOT to spend 100 000 USD
and NOT to waste 4 years of your life. All of this sounds useless, and it
probably is equally useless, but at least it is not as time-consuming nor as
expensive as the traditional alternative.

~~~
zem
you have clearly never lived in india. you absolutely need a college degree to
be even considered for most decent jobs.

~~~
brazzy
He didn't say you should not get a college degree, he said you can get a
(legitimate) degree in less time and for much, much less money if you study by
yourself and only go to an actual brick-and-mortar college to take the final
tests.

~~~
alphakappa
Going to school or college is much more than just passing the tests. The human
interaction, the relationships you form, the ideas you will be exposed to, the
things you will learn to avoid... There's value in the education process that
goes well beyond the final certificate.

~~~
brazzy
Sure - but you can probably get similar experiences in other ways as well,
again for much less money.

~~~
alphakappa
Yes, you can always think up some way to get the same benefit, but the point
is that for most people, going to college is a good way to get a well-rounded
education that involves being exposed to a range of ideas and people. Can a
dedicated person figure out a cheaper alternative? Possibly, but that's beside
the point.

------
ashray
This isn't specific to Indian culture. There are several cultures that will
emphasize college degrees over entrepreneurship. I know this is hard to
understand from a fairly successful entrepreneur's perspective but the cold
hard truth is that most entrepreneurs fail. This is what causes the whole
'it's safer to get a college degree' mentality.

I've been an entrepreneur (fairly successful) since I was 13. Yet my folks
said I should get a college degree. I did get an engineering degree while
'entrepreneuring' at the same time. Does my degree help me in any direct way ?
Nope. But there are several indirect benefits that a degree can get you first
amongst which are that in general people think you are capable and well
educated. I don't personally subscribe to this thought process but hey, we
have to live in this world with everyone else, right ? My degree has opened
doors for me and made some people take me more seriously. It has had zero
practical contribution towards my endeavors but sometimes opening a door is
all it takes. Not only people but even governments sometimes want certain
degrees for certain categories of work permits (even if it's totally
irrelevant to your work but a degree helps you). Then of course you have the
benefits of an alumni network, etc etc. but those are really what you make of
them because you can network otherwise as well. But a degree is a formal
qualification - treated as such by society and the government. Does it mean
you know more ? Probably not. Do people in general think you do ? Probably
yes.

I'd still say that in the world today, a college degree matters a lot
depending on who you are talking to. It won't matter if you're talking to me
but there are a lot of people out there who care about whether you have one or
not.

------
evincarofautumn
> Indians just can’t deal with the fact that someone without pedigree can get
> somewhere in life.

I am not Indian, nor have I spent time in India, so I hope I am right in
thinking that this speaks to present growing pains in Indian tech culture. I
say growing pains because I think, and hope, that this valuation of pedigree
over merit is coming to an end, as it is already at an end in parts of the
U.S.

There are, if I may say so, a lot of bad Indian programmers. They’re bad not
because they’re Indian, of course, but because they don’t really _want_ to be
programmers. It’s a career option. Engineering and business are things you
study in school because they’re where money and prestige are. But studying in
school and _learning_ are entirely different things.

> The only way your son is ever going to succeed being an entrepreneur is by
> getting himself an MBA.

I want to believe that this, though it be the present, is not the future of
Indian tech entrepreneurship.

~~~
auctiontheory
_There are, if I may say so, a lot of bad Indian programmers. They’re bad not
because they’re Indian, of course, but because they don’t really want to be
programmers._

I observed long ago that (in my Silicon Valley experience) white American
programmers were always good programmers, because white Americans only become
programmers if they really want to be programmers. The same cannot always be
said of other nationalities and ethnic groups.

At least, that's been true until now. The glamorization of programming and the
advent of 10-week programming cram courses may change things.

~~~
eksith
You're likely going to get some knee-jerk flak from people who misunderstand
what you're trying to say, but from experience (I'm ethnic Sinhalese), I can
say that this can be attributed to what exactly constitutes "programming" in
those cultures (this transcends race and nationality BTW).

If by "programming", you mean putting together a website and the like, then
yes, there is a _huge_ swath of people who are semi-qualified to do anything
else, but get drafted to do more anyway. If by "programming", you mean problem
solving and innovation where writing code is actually one of the last things
to be done, then most people will consider that to be a smaller subset.

------
rayiner
So my family is from Bangladesh. My aunt and uncle moved to Toronto. My cousin
wants to study business and get an MBA, but his parents want him to study
electrical engineering. I didn't get it, until I realized its all about risk
aversion. An engineering degree is a secure path to the middle class. A
business degree isn't, and entrerpeneurship certainly isn't. The business
degree might have a higher potential reward, but middle of the class engineers
still get jobs.

~~~
Loughla
I find it fascinating that engineering is now seen as a secure path to middle
class.

When I was in college, construction was a secure path to middle class, and
engineering was something reserved for folks who wanted to make 300k, but work
80 hours a week, a decidedly not-middle-class work ethic.

~~~
rayiner
There are two distinctions here: between America and India/Bangladesh, and
between then and now. Construction or industrial work in South Asia was never
a secure path to the middle class. Education has long been the way forward in
those countries. In the U.S., skilled blue collar work was considered a path
to the middle class, but those days are long behind us.

Today, in the U.S. engineering presents a secure alternative to liberal arts
degrees and living with one's parents, just it has historically presented an
alternative to manual labor in South Asia.

------
stephenaturner
I agree it's perfectly possible to get somewhere as an entrepreneur without a
college degree. But it's hardly detrimental to have one either.

And I'm kind of sick of the US-centric view that all college degrees cost
$100,000+ -- many high quality degrees in other western countries cost as
little as 10-20% of this figure (and often are paid for in a deferred payment
scheme). As with so many things (like healthcare) it's just another area the
US seems to have gone insane with.

~~~
randomdata
> And I'm kind of sick of the US-centric view that all college degrees cost
> $100,000+ -- many high quality degrees in other western countries cost as
> little as 10-20% of this figure

It doesn't seem out of line to me. The average high school graduate in Canada
will earn about $30,000 per year during the typical age one goes to
university. Assuming a degree takes four years, that is a cost of $120,000
right there, ignoring any other fees that may be associated with enrolment.

------
shayonj
Just like you even I wanted to dropout and start something I wanted or wished
to do. My parents aren't too conservative. But my dad told me something which
I believe is very true - "Getting a degree is highly rewarding. If tomorrow
your business crashes, you'd at least have a degree to back you up with a job.
Degree is for your secure future not to please the society around you". No
doubt this is true. And as my dad said, its more for you than anyone else. But
again its more than that, getting a degree pays more than just societal status
and a more savvy future. That being said, I personally want to know each and
every specific topic in full depth. And I believe that can only happen with a
proper mentor over me and like-minded peers around me. In other words, in a
"university". Plus college helps you with many other things in "life" and not
just academically. But then it depends on what you want to do and accordingly
it matters if a degree is worth it or not.

I hope students (especially) take this post in the right gesture. Dropping out
is not the best solution always. Doesn't work for everyone. Its not cool to
dropout because Zuck, Gates and Jobs did. You "have to have" a strong reason
why university isnt the best option for you.

+1 otherwise for the post. Good to know you had the support you needed.
Doesn't happen with everyone. All the best ;)

------
ateevchopra
I see college as a learning place. A place where you learn about everything
but study topics. College is the place where I met my co-founder.

It is really a great place where you can meet new talented people, learn how
to work in a team. Its a place where you can have fights, fall and learn
again.

It is the place where you learn to present your Idea by presenting it among
your friends first. They can help if you lack something. This kind of things
are usually not very easy in the outside world. Because the outside world is
busy competing with you.

You meet so many types of people that you learn to categories the people. What
kind of people are A Grade and what kind are B grade. This helps you to when
you will start hiring.

You say going to college is not worth it. Well another big problem with our
thinking is that we think that college is just to learn the "courses". Well
its not. Its a lot more than that. I am also a student in one of the most
reputable colleges in India, but the way I think, learning is just a state of
mind, place doesn't matter. I myself use to think that i have wasted my 4
years learning computer science, that I could have learnt all this in just a
year and a half, but today as I am trying to build my startup, I understand
that this all connect dots. Even I am not interested in grades at all, but i
never stop working on my startup.

So, As I see it, college is like a big sand ground, where you can fall, again
and again, and learn to fight. And all this without hurting yourself.

~~~
anupshinde
you said "one of the most reputable colleges in India"... and your statements
stand true for those kinda colleges... Let me remind you - those are few -
very few.... for all the other colleges - I agree with the author - Those
"other" kinda colleges are in huge numbers - they produce quantity without
quality and as a result many people see India's out-of-college talent
"unusable" ... and they result into bad
programmers/(engineers/lawyers/doctors/whatever-profession)... and they also
result into bad teachers - and the loop goes on...

------
thansharp
I think people underestimate the systemic restrictions placed on the Indian
Middle Class, and fail to realise the connection to a larger problem India
faces, viz. drastic shortage.

You want to become a doctor? Too bad you don't have an MBBS. We don't care
whether you decided to become one only during college, and are willing to
spend a few extra years catching up.

Except for diplomas (by which I mean qualifications like CA, which you
theoretically could get without attending classes at a college) doesn't place
a prerequisite on having a degree. Every master's program I have come across
requires a bachelor's degree. Some are more flexible, admitting degrees
outside the relevant fields. But most are not.

The reason is pretty simple : In a country like India where anything good
suffers a big shortage, people generally prefer to stick to rules, creating
many false negatives. This is because no one wants to take up liability in
case a false negative crops up. "I followed all the regulations and
suggestions," they say.

So anything that involves an expected, and common path ends up needing college
degrees as prerequisites. For the Middle Class which cannot afford to wait out
a few years, they have no choice but to toe the line. Only if you have any
capital (and in India, connections) to begin with, can you expect to change
the system. (The author here is a businessman in the crudest sense : not a
very conventional career path in a lot of families).

My parents generation mostly got their jobs before the liberalisation of the
economy in 1991. In those days, a lot of people dreamed of government jobs :
stable, decent paying, and allows you to slack off. In spite of globalisation,
we cannot expect their mindset to change a lot after they've fought so badly
for jobs, right? This old mindset comes into play when they suggest us to go
to college : they've seen decades of public sector employment, this new path
(entrepreneurship) seems new, and they honestly believe they are trying to
help you. There is no ill-will here.

I do agree one can still earn a good living without college in India too. But
I feel what I said has a considerable effect in societal status of middle
class people (most of whom are not extraordinary), and this in turn makes
people want the college degree.

------
anupshinde
First they got me to go to a college - I really dint want to go - wanted to
start "something on my own" \- pretty weak argument - I din't have any idea.
Then they insisted to go to a Master - bcoz you need to get above the crowd -
and I got into one of the best institutes - that made it even harder to
dropout even when I knew after 6 months that I was wasting time

Then I jumped into entrepreneurship - And they insisted that I should get a
job to get a hands-on experience. I gave up after 8 months - to their
preferences - but this is when I started seeing success, but couldn't prove it
to them. They didn't see it as "lasting"

Today, even at this moment, I can feel "the burden of giving up" because most
people around me "insisted" on doing something I dint want to do. Ultimately,
I am to blame.

10 years later - I am pretty successful in my career, with a job. My job is
not "secure" as they mentioned. Its not satisfying and frequently frustrating.
I know no "other job" can fix that ... I want to take the jump into
entrepreneurship again - and I am doing whatever I can. And many times I wish
I could undo that mistake I made 10 years back. It is seriously less riskier
and easier to start young rather than doing it after you are a
husband/father/etc.

As far as Education is concerned - That is important. But Degree! - I know
most universities in India will give you degrees that don't speak for your
talent/skill. It just shows that you passed your exams - and if you have extra
money - some universities will give you a degree without you reading a single
line.

------
escherba
I have been pondering about this for a while and have developed a hypothesis
as to why Indian parents (and those from similar nations) tend to overvalue
college degrees.

It is mostly due to the parents having low self-esteem. It comes down to the
following two facts:

(1) While there are plenty of exceptionally capable young individuals like OP
who have been proving everyone wrong, it usually takes a lot of parental skill
and know-how to produce a wunderkind with social skills necessary to navigate
the adult world in a foreign country.

(2) Parents who are recent immigrants (especially from poorer nations or from
nations with significant cultural differences from the host nation) do not see
themselves as capable of providing that know-how. Note that I did not say they
can't provide it -- just that they do not see themselves as capable to (it
turns out that more often than not they underestimate themselves).

Therefore, if you are a parent in a similar situation, it (often wrongly)
appears to you that the only way your children stand a fighting chance is if
you they spend as much time in school as possible. Then, of course, is the
social pressure from family friends.

------
alphakappa
>>But, something he said really shocked me. It goes like this — “Oh, my
sister’s kid is just like you. He’s got a $10,000 grant to go build a business
and he’s in the 10th grade. My sister asked me what she should do. I told her
to ask him to focus on finishing his college first before doing anything
else.”

I don't find this particularly shocking. Without knowing the particulars of
this kid, it sounds like pretty sane advice to a 16 year old - finish your
education. School, strangely enough, gives people a lot of free time too,
probably more than a full-time job does. It's possible to get an education,
and dabble in entrepreneurship, and find friends who gel with you enough to
make you might want to take on as partners. Someone with the aptitude for
entrepreneurship will likely find a way to do all that while getting an
education, but it's not irresponsible for a parent or guardian to encourage
kids to focus on their education -- Just because some kids turn out to be
successful dropout-entrepreneurs doesn't mean that dropping out at the first
opportunity is a well-defined path to success.

------
bilalq
Speaking as Pakistani in his early twenties, I can confirm that I get asked
many of the same questions. I have a B.S. in Computer Science right now, but
frequently get asked "When are you getting your MBA?" by family members. I
hate how the question always implies that I will undoubtedly be pursuing one.

------
Isamu
Since many of the comments here seem to miss the op's point:

He is saying that Indians seem to _think_ that you need a degree to be
successful, and discount the entrepreneur category by itself. He clearly
thinks this is untrue and a counterproductive attitude, but there it is.

He is probably bringing it up because it is hard enough to be an entrepreneur
without people constantly telling you that you will fail for one arbitrary
reason or another.

By the way, this holds pretty much true in the United States -- most middle-
and upper-class people think you need a degree to succeed.

But the entrepreneur category is probably given more respect. E.g. my friend's
daughter is postponing college to work on her startup - she mostly getting
very positive reinforcement all around.

------
Nano2rad
Caste system it is all about qualification. Only trader community can trade.
Only priest community can pray. Now hereditary qualification a has given way a
little bit to official qualifications. Qualifications gets precedence over
skill.

------
16s
I really dislike articles that generalize based on race, religion, sex, etc.
It's inappropriate and says nothing about individuals (all of whom are
unique).

When you're researching a large nation with more than a billion people, you'll
find a lot of people who have degrees and a lot of people who do not and a lot
of people who like chewing gum and (again) a lot of people who do not.

The only thing the results should tell you is that there are a lot of people
there. They say nothing about the average individual.

~~~
auctiontheory
While individuals are different, valid and useful generalizations do exist.
Growing up (and living in) Indian culture is different from growing up and
living in the US, which is different from Japan, from Germany, etc.

I assume you are in the US. If you met an Indian person and evaluated his
relationships and belief systems based on your American standards, you'd get a
very misleading picture. You need to understand cultural context.

------
whistlerbrk
I have regrets on going to college when in 2001 I was a good coder and running
a successful/profitable gaming oriented website/community. I was heavily
discouraged from that path and it set me back a bit, when I got back into
coding in 2005 I felt like a dinosaur. College was neat though.

~~~
ashray
Why didn't you continue running your website while in college ? I did that and
it worked out okay for me.

------
jalan
Really loved the article Ashwin. So true. Specially the para:

For some reasons, Indians just can’t deal with the fact that someone without
pedigree can get somewhere in life. It’s unbelievable that you can be a good
programmer, successful businessman or great marketer without an {insert random
college degree here}.

------
Mikeb85
This is pretty much the way of the world, not just in India. The 'safe' route
is to get a technical degree, work for a large corporation, and hopefully
retire some day. Can't blame parents for wanting to shield their children from
risk and potential failure...

------
lilpirate
Well, you were lucky your parents let you skip out on college. I was kind of
forced to do engineering. Even when I got into a rather crappy college (I had
started working for a start-up which never took off rather than study for
entrance exams). But hey, whatever.

------
itsbits
All entrepreneurs are not successful..Not just India but every where middle
class families force their children to study well and do a corporate job
rather jump to the place where success is less than 20%..

~~~
pratik661
20%? In a country as business friendly as the USA, only 10% of businesses last
over 5 years. India is a rougher business environment so I would assume the
rate of success is way below 20% (probably 5%)

------
qwerta
Not sure about education, but Indian developers tend to be very proud of their
job titles. I had to formally become 'senior super developer' so they would
not look down on me.

------
therandomguy
Indian here but on the other side of this. Got MS, MBA, and currently thinking
about Doctorate. May or may-not do a startup.

------
linux_devil
Where there is a will , there is a way!!1

------
hypertexthero
From Think on These Things (aka This Matter of Culture), by Jiddu Krishnamurti
-
[http://books.google.it/books?id=IsldnzHkxpsC&lpg=PP1&dq=thin...](http://books.google.it/books?id=IsldnzHkxpsC&lpg=PP1&dq=think%20on%20these%20things&pg=PA1#v=onepage&q&f=false)

Chapter 1 - The Function of Education \-------------------------------------

I WONDER IF we have ever asked ourselves what education means. Why do we go to
school, why do we learn various subjects, why do we pass examinations and
compete with each other for better grades? What does this so-called education
mean, and what is it all about? This is really a very important question, not
only for the students, but also for the parents, for the teachers, and for
everyone who loves this earth. Why do we go through the struggle to be
educated? Is it merely in order to pass some examinations and get a job? Or is
it the function of education to prepare us while we are young to understand
the whole process of life? Having a job and earning one's livelihood is
necessary but is that all? Are we being educated only for that? Surely, life
is not merely a job, an occupation; life is something extraordinarily wide and
profound, it is a great mystery, a vast realm in which we function as human
beings. If we merely prepare ourselves to earn a livelihood, we shall miss the
whole point of life; and to understand life is much more important than merely
to prepare for examinations and become very proficient in mathematics,
physics, or what you will.

So, whether we are teachers or students, is it not important to ask ourselves
why we are educating or being educated? And what does life mean? Is not life
an extraordinary thing? The birds, the flowers, the flourishing trees, the
heavens, the stars, the rivers and the fish therein - all this is life. Life
is the poor and the rich; life is the constant battle between groups, races
and nations; life is meditation; life is what we call religion, and it is also
the subtle, hidden things of the mind - the envies, the ambitions, the
passions, the fears, fulfilments and anxieties. All this and much more is
life. But we generally prepare ourselves to understand only one small corner
of it. We pass certain examinations, find a job, get married, have children,
and then become more and more like machines. We remain fearful, anxious,
frightened of life. So, is it the function of education to help us understand
the whole process of life, or is it merely to prepare us for a vocation, for
the best job we can get?

What is going to happen to all of us when we grow to be men and women? Have
you ever asked yourselves what you are going to do when you grow up? In all
likelihood you will get married, and before you know where you are you will be
mothers and fathers; and you will then be tied to a job, or to the kitchen, in
which you will gradually wither away. Is that all that your life is going to
be? Have you ever asked yourselves this question? Should you not ask it? If
your family is wealthy you may have a fairly good position already assured,
your father may give you a comfortable job, or you may get richly married; but
there also you will decay, deteriorate. Do you see?

Surely, education has no meaning unless it helps you to understand the vast
expanse of life with all its subtleties, with its extraordinary beauty, its
sorrows and joys. You may earn degrees, you may have a series of letters after
your name and land a very good job; but then what? What is the point of it all
if in the process your mind becomes dull, weary, stupid? So, while you are
young, must you not seek to find out what life is all about? And is it not the
true function of education to cultivate in you the intelligence which will try
to find the answer to all these problems? Do you know what intelligence is? It
is the capacity, surely, to think freely without fear, without a formula, so
that you begin to discover for yourself what is real, what is true; but if you
are frightened you will never be intelligent. Any form of ambition, spiritual
or mundane, breeds anxiety, fear; therefore ambition does not help to bring
about a mind that is clear, simple, direct, and hence intelligent.

You know, it is really very important while you are young to live in an
environment in which there is no fear. Most of us, as we grow older, become
frightened; we are afraid of living, afraid of losing a job, afraid of
tradition, afraid of what the neighbours, or what the wife or husband would
say, afraid of death. Most of us have fear in one form or another; and where
there is fear there is no intelligence. And is it not possible for all of us,
while we are young, to be in an environment where there is no fear but rather
an atmosphere of freedom freedom, not just to do what we like, but to
understand the whole process of living? Life is really very beautiful, it is
not this ugly thing that we have made of it; and you can appreciate its
richness, its depth, its extraordinary loveliness only when you revolt against
everything - against organized religion, against tradition, against the
present rotten society - so that you as a human being find out for yourself
what is true. Not to imitate but to discover - that is education, is it not?
It is very easy to conform to what your society or your parents and teachers
tell you. That is a safe and easy way of existing; but that is not living,
because in it there is fear, decay, death. To live is to find out for yourself
what is true, and you can do this only when there is freedom, when there is
continuous revolution inwardly, within yourself.

But you are not encouraged to do this; no one tells you to question, to find
out for yourself what God is, because if you were to rebel you would become a
danger to all that is false. Your parents and society want you to live safely,
and you also want to live safely. Living safely generally means living in
imitation and therefore in fear. Surely, the function of education is to help
each one of us to live freely and without fear, is it not? And to create an
atmosphere in which there is no fear requires a great deal of thinking on your
part as well as on the part of the teacher, the educator.

Do you know what this means - what an extraordinary thing it would be to
create an atmosphere in which there is no fear? And we must create it, because
we see that the world is caught up in endless wars; it is guided by
politicians who are always seeking power; it is a world of lawyers, policemen
and soldiers, of ambitious men and women all wanting position and all fighting
each other to get it. Then there are the so-called saints, the religious gurus
with their followers; they also want power, position, here or in the next
life. It is a mad world, completely confused, in which the communist is
fighting the capitalist, the socialist is resisting both, and everybody is
against somebody, struggling to arrive at a safe place, a position of power or
comfort. The world is torn by conflicting beliefs, by caste and class
distinctions, by separative nationalities, by every form of stupidity and
cruelty - and this is the world you are being educated to fit into. You are
encouraged to fit into the framework of this disastrous society; your parents
want you to do that, and you also want to fit in.

Now, is it the function of education merely to help you to conform to the
pattern of this rotten social order, or is it to give you freedom - complete
freedom to grow and create a different society, a new world? We want to have
this freedom, not in the future, but now, otherwise we may all be destroyed.
We must create immediately an atmosphere of freedom so that you can live and
find out for yourselves what is true, so that you become intelligent, so that
you are able to face the world and understand it, not just conform to it, so
that inwardly, deeply, psychologically you are in constant revolt; because it
is only those who are in constant revolt that discover what is true, not the
man who conforms, who follows some tradition. It is only when you are
constantly inquiring, constantly observing, constantly learning, that you find
truth, God, or love; and you cannot inquire, observe, learn, you cannot be
deeply aware, if you are afraid. So the function of education, surely, is to
eradicate, inwardly as well as outwardly, this fear that destroys human
thought, human relationship and love.

~~~
hypertexthero
...continued: Questioner: If all individuals were in revolt, don't you think
there would be chaos in the world?

Krishnamurti: Listen to the question first, because it is very important to
understand the question and not just wait for an answer. The question is: if
all individuals were in revolt, would not the world be in chaos? But is the
present society in such perfect order that chaos would result if everyone
revolted against it? Is there not chaos now? is everything beautiful,
uncorrupted? Is everyone living happily, fully, richly? Is man not against
man? Is there not ambition, ruthless competition? So the world is already in
chaos, that is the first thing to realize. Don't take it for granted that this
is an orderly society; don't mesmerize yourself with words. Whether here in
Europe, in America or Russia, the world is in a process of decay. If you see
the decay, you have a challenge: you are challenged to find a way of solving
this urgent problem. And how you respond to the challenge is important, is it
not? If you respond as a Hindu or a Buddhist, a Christian or a communist, then
your response is very limited - which is no response at all. You can respond
fully, adequately only if there is no fear in you, only if you don't think as
a Hindu, a communist or a capitalist, but as a total human being who is trying
to solve this problem; and you cannot solve it unless you yourself are in
revolt against the whole thing, against the ambitious acquisitiveness on which
society is based. When you yourself are not ambitious, not acquisitive, not
clinging to your own security - only then can you respond to the challenge and
create a new world.

Questioner: To revolt, to learn, to love - are these three separate processes,
or are they simultaneous?

Krishnamurti: Of course they are not three separate processes; it is a unitary
process. You see, it is very important to find out what the question means.
This question is based on theory, not on experience; it is merely verbal,
intellectual, therefore it has no validity. A man who is fearless, who is
really in revolt, struggling to find out what it means to learn, to love -
such a man does not ask if it is one process or three. We are so clever with
words, and we think that by offering explanations we have solved the problem.
Do you know what it means to learn? When you are really learning you are
learning throughout your life and there is no one special teacher to learn
from. Then everything teaches you - a dead leaf, a bird in flight, a smell, a
tear, the rich and the poor, those who are crying, the smile of a woman, the
haughtiness of a man. You learn from everything, therefore there is no guide,
no philosopher, no guru. Life itself is your teacher, and you are in a state
of constant learning.

Questioner: It is true that society is based on acquisitiveness and ambition;
but if we had no ambition would we not decay?

Krishnamurti: This is really a very important question, and it needs great
attention. Do you know what attention is? Let us find out. In a class room,
when you stare out of the window or pull somebody's hair, the teacher tells
you to pay attention. Which means what? That you are not interested in what
you are studying and so the teacher compels you to pay attention - which is
not attention at all. Attention comes when you are deeply interested in
something, for then you love to find out all about it; then your whole mind,
your whole being is there. Similarly, the moment you see that this question -
if we had no ambition, would we not decay? - is really very important, you are
interested and want to find out the truth of the matter. Now, is not the
ambitious man destroying himself? That is the first thing to find out, not to
ask whether ambition is right or wrong. Look around you, observe all the
people who are ambitious. What happens when you are ambitious? You are
thinking about yourself, are you not? You are cruel, you push other people
aside because you are trying to fulfil your ambition, trying to become a big
man, thereby creating in society the conflict between those who are succeeding
and those who are falling behind. There is a constant battle between you and
the others who are also after what you want; and is this conflict productive
of creative living? Do you understand, or is this too difficult? Are you
ambitious when you love to do something for its own sake? When you are doing
something with your whole being, not because you want to get somewhere, or
have more profit, or greater results, but simply because you love to do it -
in that there is no ambition, is there? In that there is no competition; you
are not struggling with anyone for first place. And should not education help
you to find out what you really love to do so that from the beginning to the
end of your life you are working at something which you feel is worth while
and which for you has deep significance? Otherwise, for the rest of your days,
you will be miserable. Not knowing what you really want to do, your mind falls
into a routine in which there is only boredom, decay and death. That is why it
is very important to find out while you are young what it is you really love
to do; and this is the only way to create a new society.

Questioner: In India, as in most other countries, education is being
controlled by the government. Under such circumstances is it possible to carry
out an experiment of the kind you describe?

Krishnamurti: If there were no government help, would it be possible for a
school of this kind to survive? That is what this gentleman is asking. He sees
everything throughout the world becoming more and more controlled by
governments, by politicians, by people in authority who want to shape our
minds and hearts, who want us to think in a certain way. Whether in Russia or
in any other country, the tendency is towards government control of education;
and this gentleman asks whether it is possible for a school of the kind I am
talking about to come into being without government aid. Now, what do you say?
You know, if you think something is important, really worth while, you give
your heart to it irrespective of governments and the edicts of society - and
then it will succeed. But most of us do not give our hearts to anything, and
that it why we put this sort of question. If you and I feel vitally that a new
world can be brought into being, when each one of us is in complete revolt
inwardly, psychologically, spiritually - then we shall give our hearts, our
minds, our bodies towards creating a school where there is no such thing as
fear with all its implications. Sir, anything truly revolutionary is created
by a few who see what is true and are willing to live according to that truth;
but to discover what is true demands freedom from tradition, which means
freedom from all fears.

------
eriksank
University is not a way to give people jobs. It is a way to prevent people
from getting jobs. These universities have a problem now. They were not
capable of preventing the poster from getting a job in computing, game
platforms and other such enterpreneurial fields, because there is no "Medical
association of game programmers" demanding that you first waste a decade of
your life. They cannot control the internet and prevent people from leading
their own lives as they please. So, now they are frustrated ...

------
auctiontheory
At 22, he must have his B.Tech. Pretending to not have gone ... is this some
hipster/ironic brand-building shtick?

~~~
eksith
Your unwillingness to accept reality doesn't make reality any less real.

Plenty of talented people who have been fortunate enough to have parents that
didn't trample their dreams (and potential) have gone one to become successful
in their own right without the aid of a degree.

~~~
auctiontheory
Obviously my humor is wasted on HN.

~~~
eksith
I apologize if I came off as rude and a bit dense, but it seems you've been on
HN long enough to realize, it's a far cry from Reddit (despite frequent
mentions to the contrary) and humor is verboten unless it's written in MATLAB.

