
U.S. Will Require Drones to Be Registered - davidbarker
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/u-s-will-require-drones-be-registered-n446266
======
neurotech1
One thing about the RPV/Quadcopter debate that is rarely mentioned is the
reason why they don't use ADS-B transponders.

The FAA requires ADS-B trasponders to have high accuracy GPS, and that pushes
the cost to over $2,000 per device. It would be logical for the FAA to relax
the GPS requirement slightly, so a cheap GPS module is sufficient to alert
nearby aircraft of RPV activity over a certain altitude (eg. 200ft AGL) These
RPV-grade ADS-B transponders could use a limited signal output, to avoid
nuisance pop-ups from longer distances. The transponder Mode-S ID uniquely
identifies the RPV.

It would be possible for a transponder to use an alternate channel frequency,
similar to how many General Aviation aircraft use 978Mhz ADS-B. Even with an
alternate RPV channel, the RPV operators would still be alerted to regular
aircraft operations.

~~~
swingbridge
Interesting idea although there are a lot of technical issues that would make
what you describe more challenging. A simpler approach is positive
enforcement. Force manufacturers to hard code drones to not fly near airports
or other restricted areas and not fly above 200 ft.

Model aircraft have existed for a long time and there's been a good
relationship with the FAA and few incidents. The challenge is that technology
has advanced to the point that these modern "drones" are almost too easy to
fly. Any idiot can watch some YouTube videos and then they think they're a
pilot. Given that, to the extent possible the aviation regulations should be
enforced at the device level to make these things as idiot proof in terms of
busting airspace regs as they are idiot proof to fly.

~~~
threeseed
And if they add new airports or classified areas ?

It also doesn't solve the problem of drones being active near emergency
situations.

~~~
swingbridge
"Real" airplanes have the same issue. That's why all the charts and databases
are updated frequently and pilots are responsible for ensuring the latest data
is available and loaded into the onboard computers. On a typical small general
aviation airplane that typically involves uodating the electronic flight bag
app on your iPad and popping a new memory card into the on board navigation
computer.

Other short term updates (like firefighting flight restrictions) are reviewed
by the pilots on official FAA endorsed websites or by calling a flight service
center (like customer support for pilots) before each flight. One of the most
basic elements of the required preflight planning for any flight of a "real"
airplane is to do all the above to make sure you have the latest data and know
about any temporary restrictions.

There's no reason why drone pilots couldn't or shouldn't be required to
perform a simplified version of the above before flight (if you want to do
anything other than flying the thing under the treeline in your own backyard).

------
Malstrond
I'm wondering how this will be implemented.

If used recreationally, they're R/C flying models, no matter how much the DJI
marketing dept likes the term. So will the the hobby that has been fine for
decades be hit too?

Will you have to register a Cheerson CX-Stars that weighs 8g?

What about the congressional Special Rule for Model Aircraft? "Technically
it's not the FAA so we can regulate everything!" or what?

They're also not that hard to build yourself and the components are shared
with other things (e.g. motors are shared with R/C cars and the first popular
flight controller was an Arduino with the sensors from a Wii Motion Plus or
Nunchuk) so you can't ban the part sales.

~~~
nether
The registration will probably only apply to drones of a certain gross weight.
I'm guessing it'll be somewhere around 20 lb, given that's how much the frozen
turkeys weigh that they use for birdstrike testing.

~~~
tim333
Probably a lot less. While an airliner will probably survive a 20lb object in
the engines I don't think they would be very keen on having that happen.

~~~
swingbridge
A 20lbs object of metal packed with a highly energetic battery that turns into
a powerful explosive when destructively smashed to bits. These things a far
more dangerous than a typical bird or debris strike.

------
MichaelApproved
I love the progress _drones_ have given our society. From surveying property
to beautiful aerial views in a video to cool view of your kids soccer game to
just plain fun. Drones are amazing.

You can buy a great drone and get amazing shots over and over for less than it
would cost to hire a helicopter once.

However, they also pose a risk. I'd favor a _simple_ registration process and
clear cut rules that are not infringing on the use of drones. I'd like to see
the registration used mostly to enforce the rules and track a drone back to
its owner.

Ideally, drones should also broadcast its ID, so it's easy for other pilots to
know they're in the area and also allow LEO to ticket/fine for offences.
Without a broadcasting ID, most of these rules will be hard to enforce.

~~~
ctdonath
What is registration supposed to do? Broadly, those who will register are
responsible enough to not be a problem, those idiots you want to control won't
register, and it all just ends up mostly harassing the wrong people. Have and
enforce laws against bad behavior, yes, but stop this "guilty until proven
innocent" nonsense.

~~~
objclxt
Would you apply the same logic to cars? Because I think all of your points
apply equally to cars, but nobody seems to object to the idea of both
registering them _and_ requiring a license to drive.

~~~
ctdonath
Yes. Make driver education mandatory in public school. A vehicle tag should
simply identify the vehicle out of a sea of mixed clones (a la: which blue
Mustang?).

I actually think the U.S. Founding Fathers would have enumerated a "right to
vehicular travel" if they had conceived of license-as-a-privilege restriction
on horseless carriages.

~~~
wavefunction
>>I actually think the U.S. Founding Fathers

We'll never know though, which makes personal conjecture meaningless. And
while the "Founding Fathers" may have had some singular ideas at the time,
they were merely people. We could speculate what the authors of the Magna
Carta might feel about drones, or the Athenian democrats as well...

~~~
brazzledazzle
The position the founding fathers held on freedom of movement is known based
on their writings. I don't think it's too speculative to debate about which
way they'd lean on the matter. That said it should be an exercise in futility
since we do live in very different worlds but it isn't because the
constitution's only flexibility is interpretation by federal judges.

------
saulrh
And now we hope that their definition of "drone" doesn't include traditional
RC aircraft, ten-dollar indoor micro-quadcopters, paper airplanes, RC cars,
model rockets, or children's balloons.

Edit: oh, and that it _does_ include commercial airliners under autopilot,
military aircraft under autopilot, NASA-scale rocket launches, and military
guided missiles and cruise missiles.

~~~
objclxt
Somehow I have a feeling commercial aircraft, military aircraft, and rocket
launches are already registered with the US government. Just a feeling.

~~~
saulrh
Oh, certainly. I just also want them registered and generally recognised as
being "drones". I get really annoyed at people who scream about "future killer
drones changing warfare" and "how can they possibly be safe" while they're
sitting on an airliner that's been under computer guidance since it finished
taxiing and when the US military has been using guided missiles since the 50s.

~~~
rcthompson
An aircraft flying under autopilot with a human pilot present who is
monitoring the situation and can respond to ATC instructions and take manual
control if necessary is not remotely similar to a UAV from a practical
perspective, despite the superficial similarity of both being flown by a
computer.

~~~
Evolved
You are correct and I don't think sitting in the pilot's seat but not having
your hands on the controls qualifies as "unmanned."

Again, UAVs are not computer-flown. They're remotely piloted. They are not
completely autonomous (yet.)

~~~
dronehire
> Again, UAVs are not computer-flown. They're remotely piloted. They are not
> completely autonomous (yet.)

This is incorrect. Most popular consumer-level autopilot systems used by
companies like DJI and 3D Robotics have complete autonomous functionality
(except sense and avoid capability) which allows the user to input a flight
path and then watch the drone take off, fly through the checkpoints and then
land, completely autonomously.

~~~
Evolved
I don't think we agree on what "autonomous" means. Preprogramming a flight
path to follow doesn't meet the definition of autonomous nor does autopilot
following waypoints.

Autonomous, at least to me, means the drone takes off, searches out a sight
("drone, fine me a bridge and take pictures of it") and then makes the
decision to fly to it and perform some kind of action whether it be
photographic/videographic/some kind of monitoring (commercial drones) or a
kinetic action (military drones).

Basically, when drones get AI then I'd personally consider them to be
autonomous. YMMV

------
phren0logy
If I attach a gun to it, then can I avoid registering it?

------
code_sterling
I'm just curious, have we had an instance where a quadcopter has caused the
crash of a commercial aircraft? I've seen birds filleted by tiny copters, and
I can't help but feel this is more fear than anything. But I honestly don't
know.

~~~
jkaljundi
No we have not.

------
narrator
All the big consumer drone makers are in China. I love how all sorts of
unregulated surprisingly powerful tech comes out of China. The last mischief
they engaged in was way too powerful lasers. They just don't have the fear of
science in that country like we have in America.

~~~
guelo
It's all invented here.

~~~
chillacy
That's been less true in recent times. Nowadays the factories have moved up in
the design chain towards remixing their own designs. There's also more than
one hardware startup accelerator that flys founders to shenzen since it's so
much more efficient to work locally.

And regarding this meta commentary of thinking that China as merely the
assemblers of american inventors, remember that this was thought of Japan and
korea in the 70s and 80s, which now produce some good quality cars and TVs,
respectively. I wonder if engineers at GM or Zenith (last great american TV
brand) scoffed and thought the same in 1980.

------
mindcrime
This has to be one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard in my life. Not
because it doesn't _possibly_ have some noble intent behind it, but - if for
no other reason - because it's going to be bloody impossible to enforce. When
any hobbyist can easily build a drone/UAV without much in the way of special
skills or equipment, how in the hell do they ever expect they'll get everybody
to register them?

~~~
discardorama
I'm guessing that they're not worried about the hobbyists, who are generally
more responsible; but the random people getting assembled drones as Xmas
gifts.

~~~
saulrh
Maybe there'll be a DIY exception like firearms have?

~~~
deckerdoes
I'm curious, what kind of firearm is classified as DIY and registration is not
required?

~~~
mrbill
Anything short of full-auto or under 0.50 bore (more info:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_II_weapons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_II_weapons)).
Even then, certain categories (SBRs, AOWs) can be legally owned after
paperwork and filing for a tax stamp ($5 for AOWs transfers, $200 for SBRs and
supressors).

This is why you see AR15 "80% Complete Lowers" being sold. You buy what is
basically a chunk of metal, finish the machining (can be done with a special
jig and a drill press), and you can have a functional AR15 that nobody but you
has any knowledge of.

The "upper receiver" and barrel, trigger parts kit, bolt assembly, and other
bits are just pieces parts and pipe, as far as UPS and anyone else is
concerned. When I built my AR15 (out of a locally purchased fully complete
lower), I bought the upper receiver assembly online and UPS delivered it to my
front door.

Plus, not all states require registration of "normal" firearms. In Texas, the
only "registration" is the ATF Form 4473 that is filled out at time of
purchase, and those are held by the seller, not the government.

[http://www.vice.com/video/diy-guns-591](http://www.vice.com/video/diy-
guns-591)

------
canow
They probably should require all birds to be geolocated as well... since they
present about the same level of danger to real aircrafts..

~~~
Jupe
Is this true? Does anyone have evidence of this claim? I hear it a lot, but I
don't know.

Many "drones" are build with super-tough carbon fiber frames. Additionally,
LiPo batteries (very common in quad copters) can be quite hazardous.

Combine these together and toss one into a running jet engine - I don't
believe the danger would be "about the same" as a bird.

~~~
sleepybrett
My little racing drone is certainly carbon fiber but it weighs a couple
hundred grams.

DJI phantoms, last model I saw is built of plastic.

There hasn't been a recorded plane v drone crash that I've seen documented
(the last one that hit the news ended up being birds).

Regardless the rules say under 400', not within 5 miles of an airport and some
other locations.

I'm not opposed to a drone 'license plate', I'm all for fining or jailing
people that are flying these things near the white house. I'm seeing a lot of
hysteria right now triggered by some jackasses who can't be responsible with
their toys.

------
fiatmoney
I'd love to see exactly what legislation they believe gives them the authority
to enforce this kind of regime by regulatory fiat.

And I'd also love to see how they plan on getting around the very clearly
required notice-and-comment period for new regulations, to say nothing of
sweeping new regulatory frameworks (no way this happens legally by Christmas,
which in this context probably means "day after thanksgiving").

This quote: "Under the plan, the government would work with the drone industry
to set up a structure for registering the drones" makes me hope that they're
planning on an ineffective and widely ignored warranty-card type system.

------
jongraehl
Sure, new-tech drones should respond to a targeted ping w/ serial number or
similar. Simple challenge/response crypto could avoid cloning/spoofing.
Enforcement of registration: no response = police will follow the drone to its
owner and ticket (else impound). Physical serial number for legacy drones.

------
dham
They just need to make these drones kit only and harder to fly. I've been
flying RC with my dad since the early 90s. You would spend a month building
these gas powered planes or helis. Only way to learn to fly was through other
people or crashing a lot. It def kept irresponsible people out of the hobby.
Plus you have to have skill to fly a 6 channel collective pitch heli. These
things are not toys.

------
joshmn
I won't be surprised if failing to be in compliance while flying a UAV/RPA
results in being arrested.

------
ck2
Just use your drone as a gun holster and then politicians will be too
terrified to make any laws about it.

------
barefoot
In case anyone is reading from NBC, would you mind using the term "UAV" or
"RPA" over "drone"? When we throw around the word "drone" here on reddit and
hacker news I feel like it's okay because many of us know the key differences
between what we're flying and the hellfire raining completely terrifying semi-
automated flying death machines deployed in war-zones around the world.

However, many people who read your articles might not be so well informed.
Many people have an incorrect and confused understanding of them and to them
the word "drone" carries that jumbled mess of an associations. It would be
helpful to everyone involved to use more precise modern language. You may
argue - as the ACLU has - that the word "drone" is the most direct way to talk
about unmanned aerial vehicles to the broad public. It may be easy to use and
direct, but it's far from accurate. As Edward Murrow famously said "We cannot
make good news out of bad practice."

~~~
baddox
> However, many people who read your articles might not be so well informed.
> Many people have an incorrect and confused understanding of them and to them
> the word "drone" carries that jumbled mess of an associations.

Do you actually know anyone who has made this mistake? I've heard scores of
people online claim this, but I've never met anyone who has actually met
someone with this confusion. Who reads this article and thinks that the US
government is preparing to announce that large privately-owned unmanned
airplanes armed with missiles are going to require registration? I find it
incredibly hard to believe that anyone who isn't mentally ill would make this
mistake.

In my experience, everyone in the US is quite capable of determining the
meaning of "drone" from context. I've flown drones in parks and had dozens of
people ask me about them. They may call them "drones," but there's no
confusion. Not only that, but there's no fear or apprehension. People think
they're cool, which they are.

Somewhat humorously, I think most of the FUD about public perception of
consumer drones actually comes from the RC model aircraft community (of which
I am a part, I suppose). I do not think it is based in reality.

~~~
asynchronous13
Yes, I make UAVs as my day job and I run into this confusion regularly. People
are very confused about the meaning of the term drone. For some people 'drone'
definitively means military drone. For others, 'drone' definitively means a
quad-rotor. In the news it's a catch-all term that could mean anything.

When I describe that I make 1,200 pound unmanned helicopters, the first
question is always, "Is that like a drone?". In their minds it is neither a
quad-rotor, nor carrying missiles, so they're not sure what to call it.

------
gesman
I just found a tiny little drone on my backyard.

Poor little thing crashed and now it's mine! :)

------
canow
Drones are army planes that can fly for hours and probably weight hundreds if
not thousands of pounds... Quadcopters are toys that can fly for minutes and
weight only a few pounds...

~~~
Evolved
"Drone" covers all UAVs/RPVs whether small enough to fit on your palm or large
enough to need a full size air strip to launch.

All UAVs are drones and all drones are UAVs. Not all drones are quadcopters
but all quadcopters are drones. Even in the strictest definition, what we
commonly call "R/C Planes/Helicopters" actually qualify as "drones."

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmanned_aerial_vehicle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmanned_aerial_vehicle)

~~~
serf
>...but all quadcopters are drones.

Well, not _all_ of them.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_de_Bothezat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_de_Bothezat)

[http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9v0ADuoE1cY/VHsBwdH-
YGI/AAAAAAAAAh...](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9v0ADuoE1cY/VHsBwdH-
YGI/AAAAAAAAAhU/W55JRIKrwg8/s1600/Quad.png)

~~~
Evolved
Well played, sir.

