
5-MeO-DMT: 20-minute psychoactive experience that’s transforming lives - jelliclesfarm
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidcarpenter/2020/02/02/5-meo-dmt-the-20-minute-psychoactive-toad-experience-thats-transforming-lives/
======
pmoriarty
I urge everyone who's contemplating trying this substance, which is arguably
by far _the most powerful psychedelic on the planet_ , to thoroughly educate
themselves on it first.

Erowid[1] is a good place to start.

[1] -
[https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/5meo_dmt/5meo_dmt.shtml](https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/5meo_dmt/5meo_dmt.shtml)

~~~
FriendlyNormie
How do people magically get their hands on these various substances and know
that they’re authentic?

~~~
ada1981
I highly recommend having all substances tested at EcstasyData.org

It costs about $100 and a couple weeks but you’ll get anonymous spectral
analysis of your molecules.

------
arexxbifs
I seem to recall there was a similar article about psilocybin on HN just a few
days ago.

While there certainly might be some therapeutic use for psychedelics, they are
a very unpredictable instrument. I think this recently re-emerging trend of
attributing them with almost magical cure-all qualities is risky at best.

You might certainly have a blissful, life-altering experience with a prolonged
positive afterglow, but you could also end up in a hellish, confused world of
angst and terror for what seems like an eternity, and feel excruciatingly
hollow for weeks or months afterwards. The latter can of course be devastating
to someone suffering from depression, anxiety or other psychological ailments.

~~~
Trasmatta
> but you could also end up in a hellish, confused world of angst and terror
> for what seems like an eternity, and feel excruciatingly hollow for weeks or
> months afterwards. The latter can of course be devastating to someone
> suffering from depression, anxiety or other psychological ailments.

Yep, exactly this. I'm about a month past my bad trip, and I'm still dealing
with the negative after effects (anxiety, some depression, and occasional
DP/DR). I wasn't an overly anxious or depressed person before.

I am definitely feeling better than I was a couple weeks ago, and I feel like
with more time I'll continue to heal, and get mostly back to normal (although
"normal" now means something different to me).

People who haven't been there just can't understand the hell that you can
potentially go through on high doses of psychedelics. Take the worst
experience of your life, then multiply it several times. Now, strip out your
ego, and throw yourself into the infinite expanse of space. Then give yourself
the absolute surety that you will be in this state for all of eternity. There
is no doubt in your mind that you will never escape. That's sort of what it
feels like.

~~~
sibeliuss
Out of curiosity, was this with 5meo?

~~~
Trasmatta
No, it was DXM. Which is technically a dissociative, not a psychedelic. But at
high dosages, it can have many similar properties to psychedelics, and the
experience of a "bad trip" is very similar.

I was stupid and took way too much without being prepared. My comment isn't
really meant to be a "don't do psychedelics kids", but a warning story for
those that might decide to be dumb like I was. If people are going to do them,
respect the drug, do low dosages, do lots of research, and follow harm
reduction guidelines. The alternative is the potential to experience a level
of suffering that's really completely unimaginable.

------
gfodor
I’ve come to think that the field of “psychedelic engineering” will emerge
from this trend, and that it may be the tool we need to finally start
grappling with the hard problem of consciousness.

Until we can run safe, targeted, empirical experiments around consciousness,
we are stuck using noisy outlier cases (like those who have physical brain
damage) to extrapolate from, with no control, defined variations, or iterative
deductions possible.

Alternatively, if one could quickly design drugs to alter conscious experience
in a targeted and safe way, not only would it open up the population of people
who could partake in these kinds of experiments (legally of course) but also
open the possibility of a new frontier of exploration, with tactical
‘expeditions’ set out by researchers, similar to the astronauts, where there
was some risk but the artifact would be validated knowledge about the brain
and mind.

In combination with other experimental techniques, one could imagine a whole
host of hypotheses which could be rapidly tested in a replicatable way that
presently are not possible to do so. For example, the question of if these
experiences are completely self-created psychoses, or if the ‘entities’ seen
during these experiences have some, if partial, external coupling (even if it
is as benign as non-living, static environmental factors), could be readily
tested if it were possible for repeated, controlled, experiments to try to
falsify various claims.

~~~
trevyn
Remember that “the hard problem” might not exist at all in the scientific
formulation you expect, but instead arise out of a failure to internally
reconcile archaic Cartesian dualistic thought patterns with established
neuroscience.

In other words, perhaps people are _taught_ to have subjective experience —
how to _be a subject_ , because it has certain advantages _in our current
social context_.

And this may not be the only way to be.

And this may be what psychedelics teach.

~~~
walleeee
Even if we posit that the conscious "I" is a conditioned construct, that
doesn't resolve the problem of qualia: which is the really hard one, imo. It
doesn't help, of course, that a lot of people don't seem to see a difference
between the two formulations.

~~~
trevyn
We have neural circuits that receive sense data, place attention, and record
attentional memories. Where’s the problem?

~~~
collyw
You could do all of what you describe in a computer system.

Subjective experience is something quite different from that (or it seems to
be).

~~~
trevyn
You know what it’s like to be a computer system with human & surrounding
society levels of complexity? That has been conditioned to think it’s not a
machine?

~~~
collyw
You seem very certain of you conclusions. What makes you so sure of them, as
the area we are discussing seems very poorly understood by science at present?

------
qwerty456127
> One single 50mg vaporized dose of 5-MeO-DMT — derived from venom secreted by
> the Bufo alvarius toad — often produces hallucinogenic, boundless
> experiences within one second of inhalation that can last from 7 to 90
> minutes, and on average lasts 20 minutes.

Don't try this at home. This probably applies if you get the actual toad stuff
because it can hardly be pure but with pure freebase 5-MeO-DMT (which is a
great thing to have) anything above 20 mg is dangerous, 50 mg has chances to
be lethal.

I have tried about 15 mg (of pure freebase) and it actually had a profound
effect. Not only it has "spiritual" sort of effects by giving you a direct
experience of non-duality and perfect bliss, it also acts sort of like an
awesome antidepressant - try it once and you then feel so much better (and
concentration and awareness become so much easier, and anxiety is gone) for
weeks after that.

I also microdose every time when I have hard time falling asleep - not only it
relieves stress which prevents you from falling asleep, it also makes sleep
much more refreshing and satisfying so the fact you didn't have much time to
sleep doesn't hurt much any more.

~~~
samatman
50mg of 5-Meo-DMT is an absolutely terrible idea.

I'd need a citation, or even an anecdote, to believe that it could be lethal.

I've found a datasheet[0] that lists an intraperitoneal LD50 of 115 mg/kg in
mice. That's more in keeping with my understanding.

[0]:
[https://www.caymanchem.com/msdss/11628m.pdf](https://www.caymanchem.com/msdss/11628m.pdf)

~~~
qwerty456127
> 50mg of 5-Meo-DMT is an absolutely terrible idea.

That's what I say.

> I'd need a citation, or even an anecdote, to believe that it could be
> lethal.

Somewhere on Reddit or on actualized.org (the place I've learnt about the
substance from in the first place). 20 mg also is the highest dose
Psychonautwiki mentions as heavy (which suggests nobody should ever try more).
Doses directly above that are not straight lethal but, as far as I know,
increase chances of getting a heart attack or stopping breathing to dangerous
levels (theoretically, my personal experience doesn't actually include even a
minor discomfort or disturbance in the heart rate or respiration despite my
heart is very prone to rhythm issues). I would love to try a really heroic
dose for sake of having an ultimate transcendence experience but wouldn't do
that without supervision of a doctor.

Psychonautwiki also mentions the toad venom contains about 10% (15% max) of
5-MeO-DMT so 50 mg of the toad venom corresponds to just 5 mg of pure freebase
(which is a toy dose). And it also contains 5-HO-DMT (bufotenin) and 5-MeO-NMT
which certainly add their flavour to the experience making it different from
pure 5-Meo-DMT.

------
nikivi
Very awesome experience indeed. Just shows you how powerful our brains are at
filtering incoming data to provide you with experience we all have.

Salvia especially to me proved how absolutely weird and odd can an experience
be like. The brief moment of thinking you are dead only to be instantly put in
an experience where you forget you were even a human. An experience where you
don't think about the future or past but just feel what you feel _right now_.
Salvia is weird also because it doesn't change what you see but what you feel
too.

Psychedelics are fascinating. All my experiences though come down to a
powerful realization that all that I experience is all that life is. It's very
God like feeling.

~~~
fallingfrog
I didn’t like salvia; to me it just felt like the gain of all my neurons had
been cranked up to the point where they started to feedback. It felt like my
brain was no longer a device for thinking but was now just producing
variegated patterns and noises and other garbage output. I also felt as if I
was constantly trying to recover a lost train of thought, like I was thinking,
hold on.. wait.. what was I doing again.. and when it wore off I felt more
annoyed than anything else. Are all psychedelics more or less like that?

~~~
jes5199
no. Salvia is considered to uniquely unpleasant. Other psychedelics (usually)
bring various good feelings along- the sensations of insight or of love or
unity or any of a bunch others

~~~
pmoriarty
There are lots and lots of positive salvia trip reports out there. Some people
love it, some don't. Others don't get much effect from it at all. From my
reading it does tend to be relatively impersonal however, compared to some
other psychedelics.

------
obiefernandez
I tried 5-MeO-DMT a long time ago. Talking almost 20 years ago. The main thing
I remember was a profound slowing down of time perception. Me and the other
guy on it practically attacked our babysitter wanting to know how long it
would take to wear off because it seemed like hours and hours had passed by.
And I'll never forget what he replied, "relax it's only been 5 minutes"

~~~
AdmiralGinge
Being able to isolate the part of the experience that deals with time sounds
like it could create some interesting/horrific implications for society.

You could give a criminal multi-century prison sentences for crimes and they
still have their life left at the end of it all. You could contract the boring
parts of your life and extend the interesting ones. Forget "living to work",
you could do a full day's work in the blink of an eye and have a decade-long
evening to enjoy life.

------
lemonberry
I've eaten LSD and mushrooms dozens of times over the years and continue to do
each almost nearly.

I've had several DMT experiences. A couple were amazing. One was the most
terrifying psychedelic experience I've ever had. Thankfully, DMT's high is
very short lived.

As good as the "good" trips were on DMT I never felt any sort of introspection
with it that I've felt with LSD and Mushrooms.

My good trips with DMT: the most vivid visuals I've ever experienced IF my
eyes were kept closed; warped sense of time, it felt like it lasted for hours
but was over in 10 to 15 minutes.

Once my DMT experiences were over it was like nothing ever happened. Zero
residual psychoactive experience afterwards ( LSD and Mushrooms can take some
time and you can see tracers, shadow effects, etc. as you're coming down ).

I'm a big fan of psychedelics. I do not recommend them for everyone. If you're
going to do them do a ton of research.

~~~
pmoriarty
Just to be clear, a lot of what passes for "DMT" on the street is actually
N,N-dimethyltryptamine, which (while also a very powerful psychedelic) is NOT
the same as 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine (aka 5-MeO-DMT), which is the
subject of the Forbes article.

It would be prudent to find out which "DMT" you're getting, and educate
yourself on the difference. You really don't want to confuse the two.

~~~
monktastic1
I'd say it's more than just what "passes" for DMT. "DMT" is well-established
shorthand for N,N-DMT, and anyone shortening "5-MeO-DMT" to just "DMT" is
probably either not very familiar with psychedelics or being dishonest.

------
mirimir
OK, my $0.02 as someone who's used lots of psychedelics.

Start with a couple grams of dried Psilocybe.

And don't combine it with alcohol, marijuana, etc.

If you liked that, after at least a couple weeks, try two or three times as
much.

Then repeat until you're experiencing a little ego loss.

If you liked all that, try some LSD. Maybe start with 50 micrograms or so.

Then repeat the dosage increase regimen until you experience total ego loss
for several hours.

And if you liked that, _then_ try some DMT or 5-MeO-DMT.

But not otherwise. It's only 20-30 minutes, but it could feel like forever.

------
Albedoen
Hey guys, I've been serving 5+MeO-DMT in the context of self-development
program for entrepreneurs for the past 2 years.

I've personally engaged in 400+ journeys myself.

Feel free to AMA.

The most important point I wish to bring is that it is SUPREMELY IMPORTANT to
work with facilitators who provide preparation & integration.

The potential for self-transformation and liberation from emotions not
accessible by traditional means is profound.

If you feel the impulse, go for it!

~~~
pmoriarty
Have you observed any patterns in the effects 5-MeO-DMT had on the people you
administered it to? I'm particularly interested in long-term effects and long-
term changes in beliefs and behaviors.

Also, what are some of the worst negative effects you've observed among the
people you facilitated for?

~~~
virtualwhys
Having witnessed at least 100 sessions, there are no long-term changes beyond
the participant having intimately experienced some aspect of the infinite
(whether it be harrowing or blissful) and as a result knowing that that
potentiality exists.

Behaviorally most just go back to the same patterns and aren't particularly
changed. Ayahuasca, due to the before/after dietary constraints, is more
effective (IMO) in inducing lifestyle changes.

That said, 5MeO is the death experience (i.e. it very likely mirrors the
experience at the moment of physical death) and is, if nothing else, great
practice for the real thing :)

In terms of adverse effects, some wounded warriors take days, weeks, or even
months to heal, but that's the same for any psychedelic, a segment of the
population will be adversely affected.

Also, 5MeO can be abused; I've encountered at least one facilitator who takes
it daily (over 3K journeys), which seems somewhat excessive, and can be seen
in their flat affect (i.e. you'd expect such a being to radiate joy if number
of journeys === depth of experience).

~~~
Albedoen
Is preparation & integration part of the 100 sessions you have witnessed?

I agree that without the proper context & assistance, most of the effect is
just wasted and remains in people's Being as a distant experience.

~~~
virtualwhys
There is no preparation for 5MeO per se, as no amount of meditation, yoga,
mantra practice, etc. can save you during the experience, but certainly
abstaining from alcohol, eating a vegetarian diet, avoiding conflict in the
days leading up to the ceremony, and so on, are recommended by the
facilitator.

As far as integration goes, I mean, who _really_ knows the territory of the
infinite such that they can help another through some difficulty in their own
unique path? Most facilitators that I've seen just collect the rather large
cash based consulting fee and move on to the next group, with a hug or pat on
the back if a participant had a difficult journey.

I'm certainly skeptical when there's an undeniable profit motive involved, so
the whole facilitator role is a bit overblown; there's no shamanic tradition
behind Bufo (discovered in the 80s), it's just people that have had experience
with the substance serving it to others, hopefully with good intentions.

~~~
Albedoen
Yes, I resonate with what you share. The lack of integration. People taking
fees to just hand you a pipe without support. Not everyone is like that
however.

I also agree that nothing can prepare for the non-duality - but preparation
can help you make the most of the experience & retain what was meaningful to
you.

You'd be surprised how far we've come in terms of knowledge. We do have the
practical models to navigate the dual experience having had the non-dual
experience. Understanding that you are the embodiment of the Infinite through
your direct experience isn't an end in itself. It is a beginning.

I have developed "business models of Being" for a lack of better terms that
frames how to operate in an optimal fashion in the practical world of service.

~~~
wsy
Even without psychedelics, persons suffering from psychological issues can
have breakdowns in therapeutic sessions. Professional therapists are very
careful to not unlock 'dangerous' memories and insights prematurely, they wait
until they consider the patient ready to deal with it. They also have
emergency plans in place, reaching so far as taking care that an overwhelmed
patient is afterwards treated in a hospital for a while to safely recover. Do
you have such emergency plans in place?

While I trust that you can give psychologically healthy people a good
experience, I have a hard time imagining how you could give the necessary
support to people with larger issues. And because those issues are often
deeply hidden, it is hard even for professionals to detect that in advance.

~~~
Albedoen
Excellent question - and yes some (all?) issues can't be detected in advance.
I have a screening process before people get in the program. I mainly vet
their intentions. If they have the right intention, I can trust them. Then in
the preparation phase, I have a THOROUGH questionnaire about their physical,
emotional and mental health, giving me a good picture of what I could face.
But NOTHING can ever prepare me (besides my own experience) or the participant
for what's to come. Entering the world of 5-MeO-DMT is opening Pandora's box.
You never know what will come out. But in the session, it all comes down to
how well I can hold space, how well there is trust between the participant and
me (hence a one month preparation process) and how well we both can conduct
what is being released. I also use EFT (emotions freedom techniques) to
alleviate emotionally charged patterns & beliefs - BEFORE & AFTER sessions.

It is an intense journey but if you come with the right intention (heal, grow
etc - & an attitude of humility & surrender), then there are tools to support
you and in my experience, it all comes out alright.

------
PragmaticPulp
Before anyone considers self-experimenting with 5-MeO-DMT, remember that
survivorship bias is a major factor in online psychedelic reporting right now.
You should not make treatment decisions based on articles like this one
recounting Mike Tyson's psychedelic trips as told to podcast host Joe Rogan
for the sake of entertaining their audience.

Psychedelics are no doubt an interesting area of research and potentially very
powerful agents in the context of comprehensive, professionally-guided
treatment strategies. However, it's important for everyone to acknowledge that
these powerful drugs are not guaranteed to produce unilaterally positive
changes in all people who use them. Ordering some psilocybin, LSD, or 5-MeO-
DMT off of the darknet and dosing yourself in your home is a completely
different experience than the MAPS style treatment protocols, which involve
many intense sessions of pre-trip preparation, active guidance by
professionals during the trip, and multiple post-session therapy sessions for
integration and monitoring. It's a mistake to assume you can replicate these
procedures by yourself, alone, with questionable substances purchased on the
darknet.

I've also noticed that internet comment sections are actively hostile to any
negative experience reports from psychedelics. Whenever psychedelic research
related topics hit the front page of Reddit, it's fascinating to read the
variety of anecdotal experience reports in the comments. They range from
glowing endorsements of life-changing positivity like this article, to horror
stories of multi-year depressive or psychotic episodes that were difficult to
recover from. However, the negative anecdotes tend to be so aggressively
downvoted that you can't see them unless you switch to "Controversial" sorting
some times. Worse yet, the negative anecdotes draw attacks and victim-blaming
from people who don't want to believe that psychedelics can be harmful.

It's common to dismiss the negative reports as failures of "set and setting"
or "latent pre-existing conditions", but the truth is that the outcomes of
these substances are very unpredictable. Everyone assumes that their own
experience will be positive, or that their preparation and research will save
them, but that's not always the case.

I've even witnessed positive psychedelic outcomes turn dark as people become
fixated on their tripping experiences. In psychedelic research the drugs are a
part of the therapy. A means to an end. However, I've seen more than a few
casual psychedelic users put too much weight into their hallucinations, or
become fixated with the false belief that they are just one or two more trips
away from a major breakthrough. Or they think enlightenment will come if they
just double the dose next time. Or they become obsessed with trying the next
research chemical or trendy mushroom strain. Or their first response to every
difficult situation in life is to reach for psychedelic drugs.

Fascinating topic, but I urge everyone to please watch from a distance rather
than self-experiment. If you have serious medical conditions, please engage
with professionals for a monitored treatment strategy. If you absolutely must
have your fix of psychedelic medicine, you can always engage with a ketamine
treatment facility.

~~~
pmoriarty
I share your concern, and agree that the glowing trip reports that tend to
dominate the news and social media could use a serious reality check, as these
substances can be abused and result in adverse consequences.

On the other hand, just because someone has a difficult experience it doesn't
mean that on the whole the experience was detrimental. A lot depends on who
the person is, what kind of help they have, and how they react to and
integrate the experience.

This is much like reactions to difficult experiences in ordinary waking
consciousness. One could go through an illness, for example, and come out of
it stronger and with a greater value for the simple things in life you had
taken for granted before. Or one could come out thinking "why me?", feeling
sorry for yourself, feeling bitter at the world and life, or feeling
persecuted.

In the MAPS therapeutic protocol that you mention (which is based on the work
of Stanislav Grof), people are prepared for such difficult experiences, and if
they happen are urged to stay with them instead of fightng them and trying to
run away from them, to go deeper in to them, and afterwards are helped by
trained therapists to deal with them integrate them.

All indications are that it is such an approach is what is responsible for the
overwhelming positive outcomes of these studies, as opposed to the "acid
casualties" that happen in informal, usually uninformed or even self-
destructive casual use.

~~~
PragmaticPulp
> On the other hand, just because someone has a difficult experience it
> doesn't mean that on the whole the experience was detrimental. A lot depends
> on who the person is, what kind of help they have, and how they react to and
> integrate the experience.

I was referring to those with long-lasting negative effects that persist for
weeks, months, or even years after the trip.

These negative effects are frequently downplayed (or downvoted) in online
discussions. They tend to be dismissed through victim blaming, such as
suggesting that the person was unprepared, had latent psychiatric issues, or
had improper set and setting.

The definition of "correct" preparation and set and setting seems to be
defined as an impossibly high bar that few people actually follow. The
impossibly high bar makes it easy to dismiss, ignore, or victim-blame the
negative outcomes.

For example:

> All indications are that it is such an approach is what is responsible for
> the overwhelming positive outcomes of these studies, as opposed to the "acid
> casualties" that happen in informal, usually uninformed or even self-
> destructive casual use.

How many of the people reading this article or this comment section will be
following the MAPS therapeutic protocol with trained professional supervision?
Realistically, that number is zero. How many HN readers do you think are
searching the darknet right now to buy some 5-MeO-DMT or Psilocybin for ad-hoc
personal drug use under the belief that they are self-medicating? Probably
quite a few.

~~~
pmoriarty
It's widely recognized in the risk reduction community that education, drug
testing, and legalization is the best approach.

Interested people are going to use these substances regardless, as the abject
failure of the War on Drugs has shown, and in the internet age there's no
effective way of keeping people from finding out about these substances. If
anything, the information about them is going to get out way more effectively
and faster than ever before.

We need to inform users of the risks of these substances along with their
benefits, and safe ways to use them. If they then choose to ignore those ways,
that's going to be their choice.

Right now there are ayahuasca circles and peyote ceremonies people could join,
and underground psychedelic therapists they could go to.

Hopefully, when these substances are legalized there'll be more safe places
where people could go and have their experience with trained, caring people.

------
npo9
I greatly prefer the longer lasting psychedelics — a six hour mushroom trip
feels a bit rushed for me. I have a theory that a large part of the benefit of
psychedelics is taking some time, attention, and intention into the health of
your own psyche. This isn’t to say that a psychedelic can be replaced with a
placebo, but to say that you can also obtain many of the same benefits from
many all day mental self care activities. The combined effects of the drug,
time, intention and attention are really powerful.

I’m also concerned with the commercialization of psychedelics, and that we may
lose something important as it becomes a common commodity. Shorter trips feels
like something more easily commercialized with higher user turnover.

YMMV and all effects vary between individuals.

~~~
pmoriarty
There's some extended-state DMT experiments (aka "DMTx") in the
works.[1][2][3]

The plan is to use a machine designed to inject anesthetics to inject DMT
intravenously. Since use of DMT seems not to build up any tolerance, it could
in theory be extended indefinitely, or at least for hours or even days at a
time.

[1] -
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tlbtqLOmYs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tlbtqLOmYs)

[2] -
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc-99pZpTvA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc-99pZpTvA)

[3] -
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7gLqmdpwxE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7gLqmdpwxE)

~~~
jes5199
ayahuasca is the traditional extended DMT experience

~~~
pmoriarty
But in ayahuasca, the DMT is mixed with harmaline, harmine, and probably lots
of other compounds. It's not pure DMT.

In contrast, the DMTx experiment will be done with pure DMT.

------
pstuart
I had the pleasure of experiencing DMT over 20 years ago and only recently had
learned that what I experienced was not unique: [https://non-
aliencreatures.fandom.com/wiki/Machine_Elf](https://non-
aliencreatures.fandom.com/wiki/Machine_Elf) (mine looked like an animated
Persian carpet). It was the only time in my life where the hallucination took
over full visual (and auditory) input; I could see nothing but that.

While it was really intense, I didn't take away any lessons from it as I have
from LSD and psilocybin. I think it's too strong to be a proper teacher and is
just more of a thrill ride.

I recognize that we all have different responses but I'm betting that I'm not
alone in this assessment.

~~~
pmoriarty
Again, a lot of what passes for "DMT" on the street is actually
N,N-dimethyltryptamine, which (while also a very powerful psychedelic) is NOT
the same as 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine (aka 5-MeO-DMT), which is the
subject of the Forbes article.

It would be prudent to find out which "DMT" you're getting, and educate
yourself on the difference. You really don't want to confuse the two.

------
floatinglotus
I’ve done most of the drugs discussed but still not 5MEO. I can’t believe
someone is offering a controlled therapeutic setting for this and I’d love to
get more information. How do I get in contact with these people?

------
pmoriarty
Stanislav Grof (who supervised roughly 4500 LSD sessions and himself took LSD
over 100 times) on 5-MeO-DMT:

 _" We have an amazing book by Ralph Metzner called _The Toad and the Jaguar
_. Ralph traveled all over Europe and in the United States, visiting these
groups that were using it, using some illegal loopholes or doing a kind of
underground research and he wrote this book where he collected that
information in a way that could become the basis of scientific research._

 _" Now, what is fantastic there is that this substance creates a very short,
within an hour, which is within the time of one psychoanalytic session, you
can experience significant transformation, even spiritual opening. The
substance is methoxy-DMT._

 _" I have in my book_ When the Impossible Happens _a chapter which is called
"The Secret of the Toad of Light" \-- there are churches in the American
Southwest that are actually using it as a sacrament, called the Church of the
Toad of Light._

 _" I took a fairly large dose, one that is more than is usually used. My
first time I really didn't know the dosing. It was estimated 25 milligrams.
Today you would use 5 or 10. This was by far the most powerful psychedelic
experience I've ever had._

 _" Within seconds it took me out of my body. There was nothing biographical,
no birth experiences, nothing archetypal. I was just facing this incredible
source of light, for the lack of a better description. It was beyond anything
I could imagine in terms of the brilliancy and incandescence that it had, but
also a sense that there was incredible intelligence, creative intelligence
going beyond any dichotomies. I couldn't say if it was daemonic or divine. It
was just off the scales that I had._

 _" Coming down from that experience, I had the feeling I was dying -- not
from life in to dying but from a place beyond death into a dying body, and
after a while it became clear that this was not really dying, it was an
experience of dying, and for quite a while I was in a situation where I was an
absolutely blissful state and I was having visions of streams of my past life
experiences where I had the feeling of dying and being killed in different
situations. My body was acting out the agony. It was shaking, twitching, but
psychologically, emotionally I was in absolute bliss._

 _" Then coming down for a week I was in a state in which I would like to
live. We were at the time living at Esalen. We had a deck overlooking the
ocean. This was the time I was handwriting my manuscripts and giving it to a
secretary and having to edit it. In that week I had to do editing of my
manuscript, which I could do perfectly lying in the sun there, and I would
take a little break and within seconds I had the feeling of oneness with the
whole environment, oneness with the world. Then I would open my eyes and I
could continue editing._

 _" But then of course, the consciousness of the industrial civilization came
back to do workshops, travel, so I didn't stay in that state but my
meditations became much, much deeper and it was not difficult to get into some
version of that state just through meditation._

 _" So I think this would be an amazing substance to try for practical
reasons. Because you will not find psychiatrists like my self, in the 60's and
so on, sitting for six hours with their patients but they could certainly do a
one hour session with the methoxy-DMT and I think signifcant therapy could be
done within this very short time._

 _" It's also, according to Ralph Metzner's observations, it's a substance
where the experience ends very cleanly. There's no lingering on. So there is a
very powerful experience but also a good closure._

 _" So this is my experience with methoxy-DMT. Now it's very very popular. For
example, we had the Tranpsersonal Conference in Prague and there were lectures
about it and of course there were people who had access to the toad material,
to the excretions or secretions of the glands. So it's becoming a very popular
substance right now."_[1]

[1] - From about 38 minutes in to Tim Ferris' interview with Grof here:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mdYUmvTeig](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mdYUmvTeig)

------
mapcars
“Experiencing 5-MeO-DMT is this amazing feeling of ‘oceanic bliss,’” she says.
“By experiencing this profound connection with the universe and all living
beings, one gets the feeling that we’re incredibly lucky to have even been
birthed on this beautiful planet.”

One can achieve this through yoga, and not for 20 minutes trip but as a
constant state of experience.

~~~
thelittleone
Perhaps true but after how many years of yoga? Does enough of a % of humanity
have the patience to persevere?

Yoga is great. Meditation is great. Both are slow, and humanity wants / needs
to wake up now.

~~~
mapcars
>Does enough of a % of humanity have the patience to persevere?

Don't worry about humanity, just see what you can do for yourself.

>Both are slow, and humanity wants / needs to wake up now.

If you are making a baby, do you want one which is made 9 months or one which
comes earlier? Everything has it's time, for someone it takes less time, for
some - more, but this is just how it goes, if you are taking shortcuts with
life you just fooling yourself.

~~~
thelittleone
>Don't worry about humanity, just see what you can do for yourself.

Thanks I do appreciate that view and one that is often said. Healing starts
with us. Heal yourself, heal the world etc. So I went to see what I could do
for myself. And I found that helping others was how I helped myself. So I
think that often suggested philosophy is simple on the surface but actually
quite the paradox.

> if you are taking shortcuts with life you just fooling yourself. What is a
> shortcut? Isn't part of improving as an individual or species about finding
> ways to do things more efficiently? With less time or energy or resources.

~~~
mapcars
>is simple on the surface but actually quite the paradox

That is an important observation, on many levels. One of them is that right
things do not have to fit into our logic, eg they can be paradoxical. By
"right" I mean what works, not moral or something.

By shortcut I mean to get to big experiences quickly. In yoga they always talk
about stability and discipline because if there is no stable enough base big
experiences might be too overwhelming.

~~~
thelittleone
> By shortcut I mean to get to big experiences quickly.

According to the Zen Buddhism "enlightenment takes no time, it can happen in a
single, split second".

That being said in total agreement that having a base can make for a safer,
deeper experience and or more lasting results.

~~~
mapcars
>"enlightenment takes no time, it can happen in a single, split second".

It can or it can not. Every day you can also find a bag full of cash, so are
you quitting your job already? :D (This is by no means some authoritative or
profound answer, just how I feel it now)

------
neonate
[https://archive.md/FptCi](https://archive.md/FptCi)

------
crmrc114
Trimread link if you despise the auto-playing video on forbes
[https://beta.trimread.com/articles/4010](https://beta.trimread.com/articles/4010)

------
ada1981
I went through a breakup 8 months ago that brought up a lot of old patterns,
including some suicidal thoughts.

A shaman was coming through NYC to work with vets with PTSD and I was invited
to sit in a ceremony with him.

I was afraid I was going to loose my mind / be sent to hell.

And I did. The trip immediately amplified my fears and put me into a hellspace
that was also outside of time.

I had what felt like an eternity to be face to face with these fears and
paranoia.

At one point I thought, the reason people do this is so they never do it
again.

5 minutes later I was back and thinking, wow that was intense but really
useful, I should do it again immediately.

So this time I was able to surrender to the experience and not fight it.

It wasn’t very visual but I did encounter a very dark energy that felt like
the Devil. This energy was the depression and suicidal impulse. I went deep
into it and it was frightening but I eventually confronted it in a very direct
way and just said “I want to live my life”.

I then came out and observed a sort of metaphysical geometry. I could see a
white light at the center and surrounding it the darker energy I had just
confronted.

The dark energy felt to me like “sin”, as in the archery term that means
missing the mark.

The white light was the bullseye.

And I was reminded in a very deep way that the way to ensure being able to
embrace the experience of death and head into the white light, is to practice
embracing life every day.

Step into the adventure of your own mythology, take the risks, speak the
truth, follow your bliss, and also face the pain and suffering head on.

It took a couple weeks to integrate that, and waves of the experience
resurfaced at times like while in the subway - (which in reflection was a new
way of experiencing social anxiety) but I knew to stay with these experiences
and to integrate them.

After that experience my life really became much more stable, I expanded my
theraputic executive coaching program (ALCHEMY) tripled my income in a few
months, shipped a number of creative projects (majagual.org; MemeScope.com;
anthonydavidadams.com/lsd; dnnyc.org to name a few)

And the suicidal thoughts really feel gone this time.

Integration is really important and needs to be focused on and I’ve done a
number of things to support that.

Mandala Journaling (I have a free pdf of my practice on my website)

Cuddle Therapy

Oxtocin Supplementation

Yoga

Breathwork

Co-leading a men’s group

I also co-founded dnnyc.org to help decriminalize natural entheogens in New
York City.

------
mgarfias
So how do I get it?

~~~
miketery
You can make it yourself really easily, using: sassafras tree bark, sodium
hydroxide (NaOH), and lighter fluid.

~~~
jes5199
I think you’re confusing two different drugs. And the relevant plant is not
sassafras.

~~~
OrgNet
isn't sassafras used to make real rootbeer (as opposed to modern rootbeer)?

~~~
jes5199
correct!

------
debbiedowner
Ubik?

------
sibeliuss
This substance may give you challenging homework, and tests. But it can
certainly change one for the better.

------
scottlocklin
Jesus what's next? "The 10 minute psychoactive experience of sniffing
toluene/glue that cures autism."

Having used more than my share of psychedelics, extracted from Bufo Alvarus
even, 5-MeO-DMT is not something normies or even people who'd like to remain
sane, should ever fool around with. "vital mental health tool" my mental image
of an asshole.

