

How the Germans invented gay rights more than a century ago - Thevet
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/01/26/berlin-story

======
allendoerfer
It will take some time, until facts like these about German history will be
more wildly known, for example the liberal time of the 1920s. The NS era is
just such a huge part of history lessons in school, militarism and just pure
evil is by far the dominating notion of a German thinking about history. While
glorifying their own shortcomings in the past, the English view on Germany [0]
is much more differentiated, acknowledging the good parts like the Hanse [1]
or thousand year old organizations like the Teutonic Knights [2] without just
thinking about 20th century Germany's imperialism.

Anecdotally Wagner, whose 200th birthday would have been 2 years ago, is
casually mentioned in the article as being able to be interpreted liberally,
while he is viewed much more critically in Germany [3]. Questions like whether
or not one should enjoy art, whose creator was evil are not that uncommon.

I think recent events like the reunion or the comeback of German football
starting with the world cup in 2006 changed peoples perception about Germany
quite a bit. With the Euro crisis Germany finally stopped behaving like an
awkward giant Switzerland and took some responsibility in the world again.

[0]:
[http://www.britishmuseum.org/whats_on/exhibitions/germany_me...](http://www.britishmuseum.org/whats_on/exhibitions/germany_memories_of_a_nation.aspx)

[1]:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanseatic_League](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanseatic_League)

[2]:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutonic_Knights](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutonic_Knights)

[3]:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Wagner#Controversies](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Wagner#Controversies)

~~~
cbd1984
> It will take some time, until facts like these about German history will be
> more wildly known, for example the liberal time of the 1920s.

Back when life was a cabaret?

> The NS era is just such a huge part of history lessons in school, militarism
> and just pure evil is by far the dominating notion of a German thinking
> about history.

When a whole generation still living had to stop one of the clearest Moral
Lessons ever to grace the page of history, it takes a while to rebuild a more
nuanced view. Granted.

However, it wasn't just that. The end of WWII is Year Zero for a lot of what
we're still living with, from the Cold War to modern computing technology to
the roads we in America drive on, because it was so destructive it erased the
previous world in a way few things had.

> With the Euro crisis Germany finally stopped behaving like an awkward giant
> Switzerland and took some responsibility in the world again.

And isn't it interesting that when Europe begins to get unified, Germany is
right there leading the way.

~~~
allendoerfer
> Back when life was a cabaret?

Yep. All visitors were wearing a Bubikopf.

> However, it wasn't just that. The end of WWII is Year Zero for a lot of what
> we're still living with, from the Cold War to modern computing technology to
> the roads we in America drive on, because it was so destructive it erased
> the previous world in a way few things had.

My point was, that other countries are glorifying their past empires or at
least acknowledge, that they once beat the British, while Germany is much more
limited. Compare for example how Poles and people from Eastern Germany see
Russia.

> And isn't it interesting that when Europe begins to get unified, Germany is
> right there leading the way.

Well, initially it was the other way round. Germany was unified and Europe
united and integrated partly because of a growing Germany. [0]

[0]: [http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/the-price-of-
uni...](http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/the-price-of-unity-was-
the-deutsche-mark-sacrificed-for-reunification-a-719940.html)

------
iSnow
Not to forget the more controversial, but immensely influential figure of von
Krafft-Ebing, an German-Austrian psychiatrist who was a true early bird in the
empiric sexuology with his "Psychopathia Sexualis".

The good about him: he was one of the first to adopt an empiric approach in
sexual science and sexual medicine (which influenced Hirschfeld's thinking).
The bad: he is also responsible for the link between sexuology and medicine,
which led to the thinking of "treatable perversions", even if he had a lot of
compassion for the subjects of his book.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_von_Krafft-
Ebing](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_von_Krafft-Ebing)

~~~
cbd1984
"Sexology" is a more common name than "sexuology", at least in English.

------
ginko
>In 1896, Der Eigene (“The Self-Owning”), the first gay magazine, began
publication.

'eigen' in that context rather means peculiar/particular in German.

------
gumby
"Invented?" Revived in the west, perhaps. Same sex unions go back to antiquity
in Mesopotamia, China, Europe and, it seems likely, in the Americas. Even the
christian churches were performing same sex marriages a few centuries ago.

A quick net search shows plenty of references so I won't cherry pick any. The
story is an interesting anecdote of Wilhelmine Germany, but the title is
overly dramatic.

------
optimusclimb
People should be judged on an individual basis - because we are all different.

Countries are not judged on their best individuals, but on the decisions they
make as a whole. This is a function of their system of government, which in
many ways is a function of the decisions of their populace as a whole.

California, despite its liberal population centers in San Francisco, and LA -
voted 52% in favor of banning same-sex couples from marrying in 2008. The same
state that is home to the Castro district in SF, and the same state where
Harvey Milk was elected.

[opinion coming] The United States will likely NOT be judged favorably in
history for its bullshit touting (see Jindal VERY recently) politicians, usage
of torture, imperialism, and infringements on privacy. 60 years ago if you
were black in this country, you had to drink from a separate water fountain.

The linked story is interesting...but unfortunately...Nazis.

~~~
jacquesm
> The linked story is interesting...but unfortunately...Nazis.

I live within spitting distance of the German border. In the local stores here
the Germans can be picked out easily: they're hands down more polite and well
mannered than the locals.

Shall we try to limit the damage done to the German image to that generation
that was part of the Nazi era, not those that came into being after it and
_certainly_ not those that lived before?

To your other point, that stuff in the USA is playing out today, not almost 70
years ago.

~~~
happyscrappy
Europeans are right to feel insecure as they go back into recession but let's
not pretend that civil rights in the US, while not perfect, has not made
massive strides in the seventy years preceding the election of Obama.

~~~
jacquesm
> Europeans are right to feel insecure as they go back into recession

What's that got to do with the price of tea in China? You seem to grasp at
every opportunity to harp on the 'recession in Europe', the subject here is
LGBT rights in case you failed to notice.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=happyscrappy](https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=happyscrappy)

Civil rights in the US have indeed made massive strides in the past 70 years,
but there is still a long long way to go. I'd hate to be born black and/or gay
in roughly 50% of the US states today.

~~~
mattlutze
Let's not have a "my area is more tolerant than yours" devolution.

There's been consideration quite recently in Germany, for example, that maybe
it's not such a great idea that people need to put their photograph on their
resumes, given hiring managers' tendencies to hire traditionally German-
looking males over other races/sexes. Names are still an issue in both
countries, but the US has tended away from such practice due to our expansive
Employment Equal Opportunity laws.

But, etc. etc., everyone's got a ways to go for LGBT and other rights before
we're all really inclusive.

