
Startpage is now owned by an advertising company - rahuldottech
https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/di5rn3/startpage_is_now_owned_by_an_advertising_company/
======
graaben
I've worked with System1 in a previous job. One of their main products is ad
arbitrage, which as far as I can tell adds zero (or negative) value to the
average consumer's browsing experience. This is a company that only cares
about extracting as much money as they can by finding new ways of showing you
ads.

As a side note - the whole digital advertising industry reminds me a little of
the financial engineering on Wall Street of the last decade. Doesn't add any
new value to society - and in many ways actually harms it - but makes so much
money that companies build their whole strategy around it.

~~~
rdbell
Former adtech CTO here.

I've heard this argument a lot but it's hard for me to agree.

Saying that ad arbitrage doesn't "add value" is kind of like arguing that
someone with a media-buying/sales role doesn't "add value" because they're
just sitting in the middle taking a paycheck/commission.

Partnering with ad arbitragers isn't much different than outsourcing internal
media buying/sales roles to an agency to increase reach or fill-rate.

Your point about ads being annoying to end-users isn't unique to digital.
Advertisements on all mediums have always annoyed end-users. Certain
implementations like full-page takeovers & loading 100 ads on a page are the
most annoying. Generally it's the publisher's fault for the bad UX.

~~~
detaro
It's kind of funny how both counter-replies seem to ignore everything after
the first word of "value to the average consumer's browsing experience".

~~~
rdbell
Did you read the last paragraph in my post? I explicitly addressed that. My
point is:

1\. Ad arbitrage has a role.

2\. The blame of annoying/bad UX is unfairly being deferred to arbitragers.
It's usually the implementation that annoys users, and that's generally the
publisher's fault.

I don't know anything about System1's ethics and I'm not trying defend them by
any means, but I don't agree with an argument that X company is bad because
they've participated in arbitrage.

~~~
theamk
I think it is entirely fair to blame arbitragers. They are the only ones who
can control the advertisement implementation (as website owners no longer have
direct relationships with ad providers), and they clearly fail to do so.

------
jammygit
It isn’t exactly the ads that are the problem but the tracking. It is possible
this is fine, but it seems likely to be... not fine

Edit: definitely not-fine: > Startpage is now (partly?) owned by System1, a
company which...

> has developed a pre-targeting platform that identifies and unlocks consumer
> intent across channels including social, native, email, search, market
> research and lead generation rather than relying solely on what consumers
> enter into search boxes

~~~
Startpage_rep
Hey, Startpage here. We appreciate your concern. We would be wary ourselves of
outside investment in a company that we trust and depend on. Startpage
leadership spent a lot of time considering who to bring on as an investor. The
System1 funds will allow us to grow our global user base and bring private
search to more people.

To ensure that our mission and privacy practices do not change, the investment
includes covenants that ensure Startpage’s founders in the Netherlands will
retain complete control over all privacy-related decisions.

If you’re interested, you can read more about the investment in this letter
from our Founder and CEO Robert E.G. Beens:
[https://preview.redd.it/zher3ok6pct3†1.jpg](https://preview.redd.it/zher3ok6pct3†1.jpg)

------
Startpage_rep
Hi Everyone, Startpage here. We are happy to answer any questions people have,
please feel free to ask us.

To start, we’ve addressed some existing comments and questions with the
information below. I’d also suggest reading this open letter about the
acquisition from Startpage Founder and CEO Robert E.G. Beens
([https://preview.redd.it/zher3ok6pct31.jpg](https://preview.redd.it/zher3ok6pct31.jpg)).

\- To ensure that our mission and privacy practices do not change, the
investment includes covenants that ensure Startpage’s founders in the
Netherlands will retain complete control over all privacy-related decisions.

\- Robert still has final say over all product decisions, and Startpage will
always be headquartered in the Netherlands.

\- System1 invested in Startpage because they recognize increasing consumer
demand for privacy-focused tools, not because they plan to alter Startpage’s
core mission in any way.

\- We will never compromise or weaken Startpage’s industry-leading privacy
policy.

\- We will not depart from Startpage’s core business model, which has been
profitable since 2006. We make money with contextual ads (based solely on your
search query) vs. other search engines that make money with behavioral ads
(based on your personal profile and browsing history).

\- The purpose of this investment is to allow Startpage to reach more users
worldwide and advance our mission of making safe, private search available to
everyone.

~~~
gibblz
I’m a senior engineer at Startpage, and I can personally confirm all of the
above. Our system is implemented in such a way that we never store a user's
search query, IP address, or any other personally identifying information, and
that will never change. If anyone is interested, I can answer specific
questions about technical details.

------
zubspace
Maybe Qwant [1] is a good alternative? I'm interested what others think about
it. It's European and they seem to respect privacy. I like their detailed FAQ
[2]. According to Wikipedia they use their own indexing service but
collaborate with the Bing ad network [3].

[1] [https://www.qwant.com/](https://www.qwant.com/) [2]
[https://help.qwant.com/help/overview/how-does-qwant-make-
mon...](https://help.qwant.com/help/overview/how-does-qwant-make-money/) [3]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qwant](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qwant)

~~~
greglindahl
Qwant is powered by bing under the hood. Wikipedia is wrong about that.

[https://news.microsoft.com/europe/features/qwant-and-
microso...](https://news.microsoft.com/europe/features/qwant-and-microsoft-
announce-an-exclusive-partnership-for-a-unique-internet-research-experience/)
\-- dated May 22, 2019

------
mikece
So is it recommended to stop using Startpage? Use DuckDuckGo? Is there a way
to roll your own to post on your own DigitalOcean/Linode/Docker hosting
solution?

~~~
doopfoopdoop
[https://github.com/asciimoo/searx](https://github.com/asciimoo/searx)

~~~
onesmalluser
The problem with hosting your own instance of searx is that you will most
likely be one of the only users and since the underlying search engine
(Google, etc) knows where the traffic came from (your instance) they can pin
it on you so you might as well just use Google directly. Also, I keep getting
captcha errors when I try to use searx.

------
maest
How does Startpage make money? How does it plan to make money in the future?

~~~
Startpage_rep
Startpage has been a profitable business since 2006. We make money with
contextual ads (based solely on your search query) vs. other search engines
that make money with behavioral ads (based on your personal profile and
browsing history). These contextual ads appear on the top of each search
results page. As a condition of the investment terms, this will always be our
business model on search. The investment we received will be used to reach
more users worldwide.

------
XiS
Nice discussion going on at PTIO about delisting:
[https://forum.privacytools.io/t/candidate-for-delisting-
disc...](https://forum.privacytools.io/t/candidate-for-delisting-discussion-
startpage/284/3)

------
paul7986
Startpage uses Google's results yet does Google offer an API like Bing does?

~~~
rahuldottech
Yes, Google does offer such a (paid) API, that is what Startpage uses.

~~~
paul7986
Anyone know how many other semi-known search engines are using it? Also, your
searches are completely anonymous using any third party Goggle search engine?

~~~
greglindahl
Every search engine box you see on the Internet is powered by google or bing,
basically, with Yandex having a tiny piece. And part of System1's business is
syndicating google/bing APIs.

------
jiofih
What is Startpage?

~~~
rahuldottech
A wrapper around Google search. Supposed to be: great results, no tracking,
respect for privacy.

~~~
ghostly_s
Never heard of it. What's the advantage over DuckDuckGo?

~~~
xref
Not a pro or con: DDG uses Bing results, startpage uses Google results

~~~
Nicksil
EDIT: The comment I replied to here has since been changed. xref originally
wrote: "DDG uses Bing results, startpage uses Google results"

\---

You haven't described an advantage with this reply. Or, at least, reasoning
why you believe it's an advantage.

~~~
unionpivo
Most people believe (at least as far as I know them), that google results are
better than bing.

Plus star page has super useful anonimized view. It's essentially anon proxy
built into search page. It's useful if you have to go look trough doggy
websites.

~~~
Nicksil
>Most people believe (at least as far as I know them), that google results are
better than bing.

This doesn't help. A lot of people believe things which don't always hold up
to scrutiny.

~~~
joshuamorton
For many people, Google results are an advantage. Much as for many people
targeted results are an advantage. Your definition of advantage seems
unreasonably strict.

~~~
Nicksil
This is a bizarre comment. I've not made any assertions or definitions. My
initial comment was in reply to an unsupported assertion. Perhaps your comment
was in response to someone else.

~~~
joshuamorton
Not at all, and it was aimed at you.

When you asked for support for the assertion, it was given, but you continued
to disagree.

However, for people who prefer Google, using Google results is an advantage.
You seem to be working under some stronger definition of advantage (for
example: "an advantage is only an advantage of everyone agrees it is am
advantage"), and such advantages are rare enough to be an unreasonable
requirement.

~~~
Nicksil
>Not at all, and it was aimed at you.

>When you asked for support for the assertion, it was given, but you continued
to disagree.

The "support" that the other poster submitted was: "Most people believe (at
least as far as I know them) ..."

I don't suspect many folks would accept that as anything more than anecdotal.

>However, for people who prefer Google, using Google results is an advantage.
You seem to be working under some stronger definition of advantage (for
example: "an advantage is only an advantage of everyone agrees it is am
advantage"), and such advantages are rare enough to be an unreasonable
requirement.

Look, I get it, you like Google. You work for Google. That's all well and
good. You're argument(s) toward me come off as a bit defensive, however. There
was a baseless assertion given in response to someone asking for information
and I called that into question.

My arguments here aren't for or against Google, but in support of substantive
dissemination of information which the original comment I replied to was not.

~~~
joshuamorton
I'm making an entirely semantic argument that has nothing to do with Google in
particular. I'm calling out bad reasoning on your part.

Startpage has an advantage over ddg because some people prefer Google search
results.

Equally, ddg has an advantage over startpage because some people prefer being
results or prefer to not use Google.

It doesn't matter if even a single person prefers Google to bing. For that
single person, startpage has an advantage. The reverse of this is again, also
true. Anecdotal evidence is, in this case, more than enough to justify the
assertion.[0] That is, unless you're working under some unusually strong
definition of advantage. Which I'll note you still haven't provided. Instead
of, perhaps, saying "yes I don't consider a relative advantage that applies
only to a potentially small group of people to be an advantage", you took the
opportunity to make irrelevant attacks on my character.

[0]: if you want non anecdotal evidence though: both have users. This implies
each has a relative advantage over the other to some subset of the population,
otherwise one would take all the users from that other.

------
SHAKEDECADE
I wonder what this means for StartMail’s (startpage’s email) clients?

~~~
ValentineC
From the Reddit thread [1], StartMail is a separate company and wasn't part of
the acquisition.

[1]
[https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/di5rn3/startpage_i...](https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/di5rn3/startpage_is_now_owned_by_an_advertising_company/f3w9isn/)

~~~
Startpage_rep
Yes, that is correct.

------
freediver
Every search engine that uses ads and affiliate links as primary method to
monetize searches is in essence owned by advertising company which includes
Google and DuckDuckGo.

------
GrayTextIsTruth
Posted on Reddit, which is also an advertising company.

------
rasengan
Private.sh [1] cryptographically protects your privacy.

[1] [https://private.sh](https://private.sh)

~~~
yjftsjthsd-h
I don't think private.sh _can_ provide the kind of protection that they seem
to imply is their goal; sure, they can encrypt your traffic in the browser,
but unless the search engine(s) they use as a backend are the ones are
decrypting it then private.sh controls the exit nodes and can MitM anything
they want.

~~~
solarkraft
It's just marketing bullshit.

~~~
rasengan
The query is encrypted with the publickey of gigablast, clientside. Private.sh
cannot see the query/search. And vice versa, the results are encrypted with
the client's public key and thus can only be decrypted by the client!

