
Ask HN: "Rockstar" job listings, yay or nay? - andrewbadera
Is the use of the term "rockstar" by the "average/generic small business, corporate department or other software shop" in a job listing generally appropriate?<p>Do you find it to be an overused, dead, beaten horse of a meme? Do you find it's often overused and abused by non-technical hiring personnel? Do you find it's often used in lieu of appropriate title and/or compensation?<p>Do you find that it automatically prejudices you against a job listing?<p>Do you use the term rockstar in your own job listings? If so, where do you see your startup or shop on the scale of gee whiz hotness?
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cageface
I always groan when I see it in job listings. The handful of real "rockstar"
programmers don't need to scan job boards.

I'm guessing what you're likely to attract with this kind of post is a lot of
arrogant code cowboys that don't play well with others.

~~~
chime
> The handful of real "rockstar" programmers don't need to scan job boards.

The handful of _connected_ real "rockstar" programmers don't need to scan job
boards. One could be a completely awesome programmer at a company which does
not realize his/her potential and could be looking for a new job. Of course,
mentioning the word "rockstar" doesn't really mean anything if the
pay/benefits are no different from average. My point is not every rockstar
programmer has a fan-following, famous blog, and tons of open-source projects.
Corollary, not every programmer with a fan-following, famous blog, and tons of
open-source projects is a rockstar.

~~~
gojomo
_not every rockstar programmer has a fan-following, famous blog, and tons of
open-source projects_

This is a problem with the term. 'Rockstar' has pretty strong connotations of
fame and confidence. 'Rockstar toiling in obscurity' or 'underappreciated
rockstar' are contradictions in terms.

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ichverstehe
If they let me show up with massive hangovers, allow me to drink at work,
don't care that I smoke inside and miss half of my deadlines. Sure. Otherwise,
stop fucking using that term.

Great thing I'm my own boss, I guess.

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st3fan
I got a rockstar job offer from some time ago.

I responded to the recruiter to ask if drugs, groupies and obscene amounts of
alcohol were involved. And also if I could destroy a hotel room or two.

I then explained to them that there is nothing rockstar about software
development and that I would rather be approached in a more professional way.

I quickly got a followup email back from the recruiter's boss saying that they
made up the rockstar bit and that the client had nothing to do with it. He did
apologize and said he would love to have a serious talk.

------
thesethings
I wrote about it at length here: [http://thesethings.posterous.com/rapping-
grandmas-and-ninja-...](http://thesethings.posterous.com/rapping-grandmas-and-
ninja-rockstar-fatigue)

Short version: It was initially a helpful construct to suggest that:

* Your potential place of work was not stuffy. That the applicant could seek relief from their horrible bank job. (This signal is now false given that boring bank jobs say "rockstar." :D )

* The applicant will be respected and treated well (like a rockstar), not a codemonkey.

Nowadays, "rockstar" implies the applicant must be all-skilled, all-talented,
with no burden on the potential place of work to live up to anything suggested
by use of the word :)

------
alexgartrell
I think the alleged appeal of a job listed as being "for rockstars" is a
certain amount of automatic respect once you get there. No one wants to go and
be some day trader's or insurance adjuster's software lackey, so the idea of
being the 'star' of the company is very appealing.

The problem is that this is inherently completely bullshit. Most companies are
driven by sales of a service or non-software product, which makes you less
important than the people directly responsible for making and selling the
product. Even if you're a developer centric company, there are so many 'stars'
that there are none, so it's more like being part of the choir that
accompanies a rock band (every 10 years or so, when that's cool again). It's
pretty nice, but you're certainly going to be held accountable for destroying
your hotel room.

In my opinion, the _only_ things that can be appealing about a job listing are
technologies used (if they're telling the truth and not just spitting out
buzzwords) and location.

On the flip side, if you want me to think your culture is cool and fun (as the
'rockstar' listing aims to do), you have to make sure that every person I meet
from your company (or a vast majority) are cool and fun. Otherwise, no amount
of buzzwords is going to attract me to your position.

~~~
st3fan
"I think the alleged appeal of a job listed as being "for rockstars" is a
certain amount of automatic respect once you get there. No one wants to go and
be some day trader's or insurance adjuster's software lackey, so the idea of
being the 'star' of the company is very appealing."

It does sound appealing. But then you quickly become part of crazy meetings,
changing priorities, deadlines, 'agile' planning, dealing with other teams
that are less rock-band-like and other stuff that gets in the way of rockstar
habits.

------
pheathwa
The use of "Rockstar" reeks of self-importance on the part of the hiring
company - obnoxious. I've seen it so many times it motivated me to write the
following Job Ad:

[http://blog.submitmy.info/2010/02/wanted-the-worlds-best-
can...](http://blog.submitmy.info/2010/02/wanted-the-worlds-best-candidate/)

------
dman
I personally find it to be slightly negative because a) The job ads where I
initially saw it about 2-3 years ago were generally for rockstar interns ready
to work in a microscopic paycheck. aka - everyone here at McFranchise is a
manager but gets paid minimum wage. b) It is now used by companies like Intel.
Any company who wants to hire a rockstar and insists on doing a background +
drug test is not cool in my book.

------
brown9-2
Personally I find that using the words "rockstar" or "ninja" makes the company
that placed the ad sound like a bunch of immature amateurs.

~~~
yummyfajitas
Whenever I see such an ad, all I can think of is this:

<http://bit.ly/XosCo>

~~~
kleiba
Since this is not Twitter, here's the actual URL of the above link:
[http://johnstamosfever.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/ninjas-
an...](http://johnstamosfever.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/ninjas-and-
guitars.jpg)

~~~
jetsnoc
Nice 404 you have there.

~~~
studer
I get a nice 200 OK. Maybe someone has installed a ninja-filter in your
firewall?

------
joshuacc
I think that this phrase was moderately useful when it first appeared, as it
indicated both a certain level of respect for the skills involved and a
relaxed work environment. Unfortunately, it also became useless almost
immediately afterwards due to companies jumping on the "We're cool too!"
bandwagon.

My question is, are there other ways of indicating those qualities that won't
be immediately copied by the "uncool" companies?

------
chrisbennet
When I see a job posting looking for a "rock star" I immediately think "OK,
but are you willing to _pay_ for a rock star?" If the ad indicates that they
are looking for skills way above average, they better be willing to pay way
above average. Otherwise, it seems to me they either aren't sincere or are
only really looking for a bargain.

------
coleifer
In Lake Wobegon, all children are above average.

In the bay area, all programmers are rock stars.

------
Mankhool
I don't like to see such colloquialisms in job postings, but as someone who
has done a fair amount of hiring in my career, I also don't want to see them
on resumes or CVs unless you've worked for Rockstar Games or real Rockstars.

------
alexyim
I wonder if these listings ever come with "rockstar" salaries. I doubt that
the people who use this term is even prepared to offer 2x market rate.

------
WillyF
I'm not a fan, but that's because it's overused. I feel the same way about
"Ninja," although it does seem more appropriate for Software Development jobs.

One term from a job posting that I really liked was "best available athlete."
It was for a business development type job, and it said to me that they were
looking for talent over experience. Unfortunately, it turned out that they
were looking for someone who could take on an entry level job at the company
while also filling in for their soon to leave admin.

I guess the best way to determine what terms are effective an which are
overused is to split test them somehow. Someone should build that kind of
functionality into an Applicant Tracking System.

------
Tichy
Put it another way: are you a rockstar business? If not, why would a rockstar
want to work for you?

Do rockstars even have jobs? Probably they do in a way, but I could imagine
that they don't see themselves as people who have jobs.

------
xanderhud
Well it's definitely becoming more common in job listings to say the least:

[http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=rockstar&l=](http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=rockstar&l=)

------
eli
It definitely turns me off to a job. But then maybe I'm just not a rockstar.

------
calibraxis
I find it ambiguous, but on the whole probably a good sign. A negative part is
that it appeals to the needy ego. A postive aspect is that it maybe signals a
knowledge of the Spolsky school of management, which is a clear improvement
over average companies.

But it's not as informative as other signs. For example, programming language
choices and transparency. In this regard, the most impressive company I know
is Relevance:

<http://thinkrelevance.com/>

Other good companies include Freiheit and RethinkDB:

<http://www.freiheit.com/tag/Jobs> (note the google translator)

<http://rethinkdb.com/jobs/>

------
AmberShah
I am almost guaranteed to read the post if it has something like that, whereas
I sometimes skip ones like "Application Developer II" or something lame like
that. It's usually obvious from the rest of the post whether it's a phony HR
ploy or a company truly searching for top talent (most of the time). And if
so, I know that 1) they are willing to pay well, and 2) I'm going to get to
work with other smart people. Sure, it's a cliche and sometimes abused, but so
are lots of words, like agile, lean, software craftsman, etc. Just bc someone
says it, I don't trust it 100%, but it's still sometimes useful to use it to
convey an idea in a single word.

------
DanielBMarkham
I think it's appropriate in terms of describing an _attitude_ , but it is not
so great at describing skills. "Ninja", "rockstar", "guru" and such tell me
that they want somebody to show up who doesn't feel stress and is able to make
the tough decisions needed to be made to make the thing happen. It also means
you're willing to put up with a bit of cowboy mentality in return for
exceptional performance.

Doesn't mean that the programmer is worth a damn. That's a different question.
Confusion results when you confuse what's being said.

It also doesn't mean that a rockstar programmer is what you really need. But
that's also a different question.

------
heresy
I think the actual position almost never lives up to such a breathless
description.

Back when the economy was a bit more dire, I interviewed with a place that
called itself "funky", with a team of "ninjas".

Turned out to be an accountancy software house with some typical line of
business apps that needed to be ported to the web because a local web startup
was eating them up for breakfast and converting their customers like crazy.

------
presidentender
I hate the idea of the term "Rockstar," (or "Ninja") because it implies that
by just showing up, you've already done your part; by extension, it implies
that you don't need to improve.

I'd much rather see a job ad looking for a "Software Samurai," already
possessed of great competency, but eager to learn new tricks and improve
himself as a developer.

------
snowbird122
Anyone here have advice for those non-technical people who know they need a
great programmer on their team?

~~~
andrewbadera
Get someone -- a friend, a consultant -- with domain knowledge and preferably
hiring experience to help write your listing, screen and interview your
candidates. Make sure your qualifications are spot-on, well-targeted and
appropriately descriptive.

~~~
enneff
In addition to this good advice, make sure you give some indication of what
makes your project interesting _to the programmer_. Only another good
programmer can tell you what this is.

If it's not an interesting project, getting a good programmer to jump on it
will be hard.

------
WilliamLP
I'd never respond for an ad looking for a "Ninja" because I'm a software
"Pirate" and we're natural enemies.

------
knipknap
If you are shooting for the kind of people who aspire to be rockstars (i.e.
teenagers, mostly?), why not?

~~~
andrewbadera
That's just it -- many of these listings are misnomers, targeting the naive
and/or desperate. Why beat that horse any more than it already has been if
it's not even an accurate use of the term?

~~~
ewjordan
That might be a little harsh. I suspect that what's going on is that rather
than _targeting_ the naive or desperate, it's naive HR folks that think
they're "getting into our heads" or "speaking our language".

It's sort of like a parent that really wants to be cool telling their kids
that they really like those "Limp Biscuit" fellows - it's not that the
sentiment is entirely unappreciated, but the attempt is so misguided and cheap
that it's a bigger turnoff than if they'd just embraced their un-coolness to
begin with.

~~~
watmough
Yeah, after a few weeks of a clueless founder, and surrounded by our fellow
'agile' and 'rockstar' programmers, you might be longing for reassuringly
foosball-free break-room, and the steady whir and click as the TPS reports
roll into the out-tray of the HP. Mmm. Kay.

------
dksf
Take a look at this posting on Quora for a related discussion:
[http://www.quora.com/Do-the-terms-ninja-and-rockstar-come-
of...](http://www.quora.com/Do-the-terms-ninja-and-rockstar-come-off-as-
patronizing-in-job-postings)

The general sentiment is that it is neo-corporate and shows a lack of
understanding and lack of concern about substance of candidates.

------
korch
For me "Rockstar" is now a shibboleth.

If you have to call yourself, your company, your product or your programmers
"rockstars" then none of you are real rockstars. If you have to ask "what's
different about rockstar's lifestyles compared to the small people?" then you
definitely have no idea what you're even talking about.

It's just like being called a "hacker", or a "gangster" or similar. You either
have legit street cred, and thereby are automatically included amongst an
elite, meritocratic subculture, or you don't.

~~~
spitfire
and if you're posting on a site called "hacker news", you are not a "hacker".

Even people who wrote an single excel script call themselves hackers here (and
are defended for it! I've seen it happen)

EDIT: At this point in my life I'd be embarrassed to be called a hacker. So I
don't feel ashamed being an impostor here.

~~~
notauser
I'm not sure you deserved to be down-voted because it's a legitimate question.

Fortunately I don't think that anyone has tried to claim that posting to HN
makes you a hacker. It's (news (of interest for hackers)) rather than (news of
interest (for hackers)). So posting doesn't mean you are claiming to be a
hacker, just that you are interested in the stuff hackers are interested in.

By the way in my view some of the most interesting hacks are done in Excel
(for example the guy who wrote an Excel 3D engine -
[http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3563/microsoft_excel_r...](http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3563/microsoft_excel_revolutionary_3d_.php)
\- no one can seriously claim that this isn't a hack in the best sense of the
word.) Making constrained systems do things they were never designed to do is
practically the definition of hacking.

------
dnsworks
I maintain a blacklist of recruiters who annoy me. Mostly it's the ones who
call me up repeatedly, or who call me about ridiculously bad fits. However, I
also keep a special section in that black list for any recruiter that uses the
term "Rock Star" or "Ninja", and I openly mock the companies who use the term.
I also find smugness later on when they fail, because they clearly were prima
donnas trying to attract other prima donnas.

