
Point – A smart house sitter - nmattisson
http://formdevices.com/
======
jpalomaki
Never thought about this, but the listening part is actually quite nice
addition. For example my fridge and freezer both use "beeps" to signal
something is wrong. My stove, oven and dish washer are also using beeps (but a
little bit different) to tell the food is ready or dishes are done. My Neato
uses beeps to signal it is in trouble. My washing machine does not beep, but
it makes a specific sound when it is ready and the lock on the door is
released. If the bed room windows are left open, the sounds of traffic are
more loud than usual. Also all my doors make a specific sound when they are
opened.

Now when I think about the "beeps" would be actually quite neat and simple way
to integrate various home appliances to this kind of monitoring system. Not as
cool or comprehensive as bluetooth or zigbee, but simple to add. Intelligent
listening could probably reveal all kinds of interesting stuff without the
need to adding new sensors here and there.

------
Agustus
Hi Form engineers and Form finance department, you have my attention and
desire to purchase this. Can you provide answers to the following questions:

1\. How much will this cost to purchase?

2\. Will their be a subscription fee?

3\. How is the Point system installed, from the video it appeared to be a
magnet?

4\. When is the actual release timeline, so I can start figuring out where I
can put this in my house or if I should simply Arduino / Pi / Grove a solution
instead.

5\. Why kickstarter, you appear to have the infrastructure (e.g. engineering,
prototype, etc.) in place.

~~~
nmattisson
Hi Agustus!

Form finance and 1/5 of the engineering department here. :)

1\. The Kickstarter price will be $79, with early-bird options for less.
Retail will be more expensive.

2\. No.

3\. There is a small metal plate with double-sided tape that you attach to
your wall or ceiling. Point then attached with magnets.

4\. This summer! Beta units earlier if you are OK with a rough experience.

5\. We might look larger than we are. Right now, we're basically self-funded
engineers. Kickstarter allows us to validate our prototype without committing
serious cash to manufacturing deposits. Like several others have remarked, it
also helps with marketing and early customer interaction. Win-win really.

~~~
Agustus
Thank you Nils! How can I e-mail you to have one as soon as possible at $99?

~~~
nmattisson
If you want to make sure to get one of the early-birds, sign up to the
newsletter. Since it's mostly friends of ours on there we'll send a reminder
before the launch so you can be ready. The launch mailing list will only get
one email once the project is already live.

~~~
Agustus
Okay, see you when it clears Kickstarter.

------
13
> "Nothing is recorded or sent across the network. Peace of mind, without
> giving up on privacy."

Devices like this still make me uncomfortable, given the track record of even
large companies making extremely insecure devices[1].

[1]: [http://www.ioactive.com/news-
events/IOActive_advisory_belkin...](http://www.ioactive.com/news-
events/IOActive_advisory_belkinwemo_2014.html)

~~~
k0ngo
Form engineer here. We're not planning on shipping our firmware signing keys
along with our product like Belkin did. Jokes aside, security, integrity and
trust are our very top priorities. The hardware is designed in a way that
should be extremely hard to misuse, and even if someone would be able to break
the encrypted protocols, the encrypted and signed firmware images and manage
to run custom firmwares on the MCU:s, they would still be limited by the
extremely low power budget and the very limited amount of memory, so I would
say that it is nearly impossible to store and/or transmit any meaningful
amount of audio.

~~~
swamp40
As a fellow embedded design engineer, I would advise you to read up a bit on
the Greek gods _Hubris_ and _Nemesis_.

~~~
gress
So you're suggesting they just give up?

~~~
swamp40
No, not at all - I'm just saying it is a mistake to laugh at Belkin's
misfortunes.

------
danielbarla
Glad to see at least some companies are taking an (at least semi-) offline
approach to these things. With the way things have been going these last few
years, the internet-of-things irks me.

I've also often wondered why the home security industry seems to be so out of
phase with the rest of the tech world; e.g. my house has a security system
which seems to have been designed in the 70s (yet it was likely bought by the
previous owner circa 2000). To (re-)set zones, you need to go through a
90-step setup wizard, which requires you to calculate zone inclusions as an
8-bit number and type it in on the keypad. And in a day and age when self-
driving cars are fast becoming a reality, my alarm system can't tell the
difference between a 3 year old walking around, a large bird coming in for
landing, and a man climbing over the fence with a crowbar in their hand. I
think there's a lot of room for improvement.

Another part of me wonders why devices like this have to be wireless. Sure, it
sounds awesome at first, but I'm pretty sure it means weekly battery swapping
(even if we discount frequent wifi use). A device that requires frequent
maintenance quickly stops being used, and security devices which are off
aren't much use (or worse than useless, depending on how you look at it).

~~~
kristiandupont
Our power budget gives us between one and two years of battery life. Your
phone will give you a heads up when a change is required. It's a bit of a
hassle, but we feel it's worth it to have the freedom from cables.

~~~
cpwright
I think you should consider adding a POE option, you'll have a more reliable
connection + no batteries to worry about.

~~~
VLM
Also scalability. The designers would probably enjoy people with large houses
buying 12 of these things for every room and level of the house, and if
marketing says a battery will last 12 months you Know that means it'll really
only last 6 months, maybe only 3 months, and six month battery life vs 12
gadgets means once the battery use randomizes I'll be tracking down and
replacing a battery every two weeks which is too much peasant work. I don't
mind capital improvement like running wires when I'm not busy but I do mind
unscheduled peasant work when I'm busy.

If you "can't" put in a power jack (UL? EMI/EMC concerns? Cost?) then at least
please manipulate the case design such that when I solder wires directly to
the battery jacks then the case can still be closed, I don't have to drill
extra cabling holes, etc. The easiest battery to convert is 9volts for obvious
connector reasons, but they likely don't have the energy density you need.

I have 12 volts available thru the house so if you could uprate the on board
caps and power circuitry to tolerate 12V in that would be nice. Likely your
silicon will be fine, and you can't have a thermal issue if you think you're
running for a year off any battery smaller than a forklift battery, so its
just please solder in 25V caps on the input of the voltage reg instead of 6V
caps. Then I can direct wire to the 12V rather than running thru a nice
inefficient converter.

(edited to add, I have a marketing idea for the "runs off 12 volts" plan...
RVs and boats have 12V and make the software smart enough to understand
"animal noises" and send an alert.)

Then again if this is going to be one of those "$300" gadgets, I'm not buying
one anyway. And I didn't see a price.

------
rdl
Huge points for doing this onsite vs. in the cloud.

I'd want to audit the firmware, and would put it behind a firewall blocking
outbound connections.

I'd like the ability to monitor a few sites, though -- not just my home, but
also a storage/warehouse space, potentially an office, vacation home, parking
spot, etc. Being able to monitor all of those in a single app would be
awesome.

I'm willing to trust you with processed events (probably), just not raw data,
and no silent auto-updates, and a network/deployment config which is at least
relatively secure by default. (I know you could covert channel with a sneaky
firmware feature I could never detect, but that would require effort. I trust
the company to be honest a lot more than I trust them to be bug-free, so I
just don't want "fail-open" to be a default.)

~~~
Siliticxx
I dont understand what you're saying. You don't want to have cloud integration
yet you want to have monitor remotely?

How would that work without server software?

~~~
venomsnake
An innovative concept - the server software is installed on raspberry pi I
own.

~~~
mbesto
What'll be easier to hack - a raspberry pi that Holly Housemaker maintains or
a cloud connected one that Nick Neckbeard maintains for her? (serious
question, I think there's a debate here)

------
anewcolor
"ex-apple team" is a little misleading, only one employee worked at apple (at
least according to their about page)

~~~
kristiandupont
[I work at Form] Correct, only Nils was at Apple. The rest of us are
unsuccessfully trying to get Apple-gossip out of him :-) Sorry about the
misleading title.

------
marcomonteiro
The title is misleading. Looking at the About Us section it appears that only
the CEO/Founder worked at Apple.

It's nice to see a new entrant into the industry none the less though.
Interesting idea to use audio detection but I'm a little surprised it didn't
include a PIR sensor for motion as well. Would be curious if there's an
eventual platform play here.

------
mrmaddog
I really like the idea of unobtrusive anomaly detection as a product, but I
wonder how much benefit I could actually derive from this.

Perhaps it is nice to have a log of whenever the front door opens, but that
feature certainly won't sell me on its own.

It is cool that they can tell when a window breaks, but... how much good does
that notification do for me? How confident can I be that this is not a false
positive and immediately call the police? Or do I rely on the "soft alarm" to
hopefully scare away the would-be intruders?

I don't see what the "light up" option affords. If I'm there, I'll know that
loud music is playing. And I don't get the sense that this is meant to replace
my smoke alarm/carbon monoxide alarm, so at best the light is an early warning
system that I should open a window to vent out some smoke from my cooking
before the real alarm sets off.

Overall, this seems like a really cool concept that has a lot of marginal
benefits and zero killer features. Hopefully that sell-story will be
embellished upon in the real kickstarter!

~~~
ISL
If you're a landlord or hotelier, this is like a black-box/speed
camera/friendly supervisor for your property.

Music too loud, or smoking in a non-smoking place? This thing lights up and
lets your guest know to tone things down. If it gets too loud, it switches
color and logs the infraction.

Appliance failure or security concerns get monitored too.

~~~
VLM
"Appliance failure"

I converted from an old fashioned clothes washer to new high efficiency a
couple years ago. No problem, but I suspect a big problem for the software
devs is an old fashioned washer sounds like a modern direct drive just
exploded and vice versa. I imagine that's quite a puzzler. Also when my water
softener kicks in at the same time as the tankless hot water and the washer
and the dryer and the furnace that must be an audio analysis puzzler to tease
it all apart.

The washer biz likes to segment by UI, so a clothes dryer that tweets
completion costs them an extra $20 to build but they sell it for an extra
$1000 which I find highly unappealing, but if this thing is smart enough, it
could short circuit that marketing driven profit center and send me a notice
when my dryer finishes tumbling. Ditto clothes washer, dishwasher, maybe other
things?

------
jgillette
There are two textboxes on the screen to be notified when it becomes
available. I first tried the bottom one, and it gave me an "Too many subscribe
attempts for this email address. Please try again in about 5 minutes.
(#8715)". I tried it a few times after waiting a few minutes, then went back
to the first textbox, higher on the page, and that one worked without issue.

~~~
nogridbag
I had the same problem, but a different error code number: "Too many subscribe
attempts for this email address. Please try again in about 5 minutes.
(#8617)". I clicked the Submit button once.

------
_pmf_
Home automation and home security need more powerline communication and less
app-wankery and IoT pipedreams with shoddy wireless protocols.

~~~
k0ngo
We're using plain batteries and wifi to avoid using cables, thus making it
much easier and elegant to install. That also means the device is completely
self-contained, so you don't need any base stations or gateways to connect it
to the internet. It's just plug-and-forget. I wouldn't call 802.11bgn
"shoddy"; it's basic infrastructure already available in most people's homes
these days.

~~~
pistle
Until the power goes out, the router gets funky, etc.

Also, it complicates wireless security config - can a non-tech figure out how
to configure security with their router?

Does being self-contained mean isolated and non-expandable?

Add a remote GSM/CDMA option. Hook up with a 24/7 service center to provide
monitoring subscriptions without contract (a la Simplisafe). What about
integration with door and window sensors? Motion sensors? Carbon monoxide
detection? Moisture detection? Sirens?

I'd really like to see innovation in this space as Honeywell, etc. drag their
feet and provide overpriced, under-delivering options, but the reasons are
plain. There is no one-size fits all, and mixed systems don't make sense.
Then, the resilience of the assurance dependency chain is inversely
proportional to the cost of the system. If it's cheap, it's easy to beat or
have many common points of failure - any one of which can bring the system
down or trigger enough false alarms that it costs the consumer with their
time, money, and energy.

Sincerely, Good luck!

~~~
k0ngo
If the power goes out or the router gets funky, most internet connected
solutions would go offline anyway. But, being battery powered, Point would at
least still be active and keep track of things. The fact that the device has
lost it's connection to the cloud will trigger a notification to the owner as
well. The wireless configuration is done using an app and should be straight
forward for most users. As long as the router is securely configured and the
user is capable to connect a phone or laptop, installing Point should be piece
of cake. As for being self-contained, we mean that it is plug-and-forget,
without any cables or base stations. There might be methods of expanding the
set of sensors, although at the moment, you see what you get. Adding a
cellular modem to the device would make it deviate too much from our current
concept in terms of cost (both manufacturing and recurring costs for the cell
network usage) and power consumption, but it is something we might include in
a future, special version for places without a permanent internet connection,
like a cabin or boat.

------
aytekin
Great idea with a terrible name. You won't be able to find the web site when
you want to show it to a friend a week from now.

------
cyanbane
"Nothing is recorded or sent across the network. Peace of mind, without giving
up on privacy."

Respect this a lot and is a major selling point for me. If the sound
analysis/processing is not done over the wire (assuming on the device) will
there be a way to allow for publicly produce events (i.e. integration into
systems like IFTTT, etc)?

~~~
k0ngo
Yep, the sound analysis is done on the device. We're working with IFTTT and
others on integration, and there'll be an open API as well.

~~~
Logmix
Can the firmware be updated over the internet, and can the device
theoretically send sound over internet if the firmware is changed? If yes,
that would be a dealbreaker for me (because, you know, crackers and the NSA).

~~~
k0ngo
That would require breaking the firmware encryption and signing schemes of
multiple physically isolated processors, and even then it would be limited by
the power budget, meaning transmitting audio data would drain the batteries
very quickly. So, it is not completely impossible (what is, these days?) but
extremely implausible and at the same time rather easy to detect; I'd say your
(smart)phone is a much better attack vector ;)

------
theicon
First Andy Rubin left to create Android, then Tony Fadell left to create Nest
and now these guys.

------
jhonovich
Is this supposed to replace a home alarm system? can someone from Form
clarify?

~~~
kristiandupont
If you have a full-blown home security system installed currently, you might
not feel that this is enough for you.

We are primarily targeting people who don't want those systems either because
they are too expensive or bothersome, or because they feel that it's a tad
orwellian. As I wrote in another response, many of the features have been
designed with home sharers (AirBnB hosts) in mind.

~~~
jhonovich
How accurate will it be in detecting whether someone has broken into my home?
Are you positioning your product to accurately detect intruders?

~~~
nmattisson
We detect if people are present (from sound, so not if they're perfectly
quiet) and notice broken windows. If you see a broken window alert followed by
people present in your home timeline when you're not expecting them, I would
draw the conclusion that it's an intruder.

[on the Form team]

------
ojilles
Here is a 2 1/2 min video on Point that I found through their Vimeo account
(uploaded 11hrs ago): [http://vimeo.com/110732806](http://vimeo.com/110732806)

------
tomelliott
I can't sign up, keep getting the follow error message. I'm only trying once,
with various email address:

"Too many subscribe attempts for this email address. Please try again in about
5 minutes. (#8212)"

:(

------
RankingMember
I wonder if it can sense the difference between a cat throwing a glass off a
counter and a burglar breaking a window.

I love home security stuff like this, and hope this rolls in at a decent price
point.

~~~
amelius
Also, I hope it doesn't get triggered by the neighbor's loud tv set.

Frankly, I'm not sure if I'd be prepared to receive and deal with false
positives even once a month, let alone once a day.

~~~
RankingMember
Agreed, a system with false positives is worse than no system at all imho
because it trains you to disregard warning signs.

~~~
owenmarshall
My apartment was broken into because the security system was disabled. The
security system was disabled because it used a cheap glass break sensor that
would trip if both my dogs barked at the same time - both, not just one.
Naturally this was untenable.

I'm a bit leery about glass break sensors, to say the least.

~~~
nmattisson
We're combining data from different sensors, so if Point hears broken glass,
and then notices the temperature changing or street noise being louder than
usual we can more accurately detect broken windows.

~~~
owenmarshall
OK, this is actually a really cool approach to what I gather is a common
problem!

Does Point try to learn a baseline for temperature/acoustics/etc., and trigger
when a deviation occurs? Or do you just say "when glass breaks + these other
thresholds are tripped, ..."

Because the latter would probably solve the problem fairly well, but the
former would be _outstanding._

------
j_s
See also 'The Canary' (with a camera) sold out for $250.

[http://canary.is/specs/](http://canary.is/specs/)

------
mhb
Not necessarily easy, but a nice addition would be if it could sense water
situations - broken washer hose or failed hot water heater tank.

~~~
nmattisson
It does come with a humidity sensor, so if the leak leads to elevated humidity
levels you could spot that something was off, but it's going to depend on a
lot of factors in your room. Finding water leaks is our radar, but we don't
dare to make promises right now.

(on the Form team)

------
gdonelli
Love it. Will buy one for me and one for my parents.

------
Shivetya
Blend in? I sure hope they have many finishes or at least interchangeable
covers. Perhaps they could even have covers you can paint.

------
sgreenwood
Home security - for middle class, kind of techy, suburban people!

------
hrrsn
I love this idea.

------
martior
Will it work as a smoke alarm?

~~~
mljungblad
It can detect smoke and different varieties of it. To be classified as a smoke
alarm, however, requires a costly certification which isn't feasible right
now. It is able to detect when your regular smoke/fire alarm goes off though
and pass the notification to your phone when you're away.

~~~
martior
right. Possibly high returns if you get it though. Possibly more units per
customers and more potential customers. Also within a magnitude of the price
of normal smoke alarms.

------
PinguTS
Another device connected to the cloud sending data to the cloud and this time
also sound. It was already creepy the learn that Netatmo, a _weather_ station,
is recording sound. Because the company released sound profiles from the games
during the FIFA world championship mapped to countries, regions. As they said,
there is only a loudness sensor integrated.

But this time it is a real microphone. That makes it another "smart" device to
hack in to, to be used by 3 letter agencies.

I know there are webcams. But then people know. I work with many non-tech
people and engineers from different companies. I have seens, that the majority
is gluing the integrated webcams. Even in my own company, almost everybody has
glued the webcam.

~~~
dkyc
Please read what's on the site: _" Nothing is recorded or sent across the
network. Peace of mind, without giving up on privacy."_

I appreaciate your privacy concerns, but not every device is the same. We are
in an early stage of such cloud-based "smart devices", so we have to be
careful as there are great conceptual differences between different products.

~~~
PinguTS
As an embedded engineer myself working in industrial applications as well as
automotive and later of the to for the authorities, I know what is possible
and what not.

The things, as I would design it and as others like Nest is doing it, those
devices support silent updates to provide a "great and seeming-less customer
experience". But here is the crux, you see. (;

