
A Drop of 4 Degrees Made a Big Difference for a Garment Maker's Bottom Line - danso
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2018/07/23/629871725/why-a-drop-of-4-degrees-made-a-big-difference-for-a-garment-makers-bottom-line
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keeler
While I'm glad that this experiment was done, because it resulted in better
conditions for the factory workers, it bothers me that experiments like this
are necessary in the first place. I get that managers and owners, _qua
managers and owners_ , are concerned with maximizing productivity, but it
should be obvious to anyone with a modicum of humanity and common sense that
productivity will increase when labourers are treated as human beings, with
basic needs being met for their general welfare, rather than as beasts of
burden.

Color me unimpressed at the discovery that productivity increases when workers
have something as luxurious as proper lighting and air circulation so that
sweat isn't pouring down their faces while they're sewing blue jeans for H&M
with the utmost concentration lest they break their finger or hand in a
machine.

~~~
st26
Putting it in terms of cost & productivity is very clinical, very inhuman, but
it's also virtually unassailable. Nobody will argue "We should continue to
treat people badly _and_ make less money". So to me it seems like the gold
standard result. You don't have to argue ethics, morals, or worry about people
cheating. Because you've just made humane treatment of workers economically
rational.

~~~
keeler
You've missed my point. I'm not saying that putting it in terms of cost and
productivity _isn 't_ virtually unassailable. I'm saying that it's ridiculous
that this experiment was necessary to convince management that ensuring the
basic welfare of its workforce would improve that productivity.

Just as it's obvious that productivity isn't maximized if workers aren't
permitted to sleep or eat lunch (and we don't really need studies to know
that), so it should be obvious that productivity isn't maximized when working
conditions include stifling heat with no air circulation while you're at risk
of maiming yourself at a sewing machine. This is a sweat shop we are talking
about.

I've explicitly couched my comments in terms of worker productivity, so I'm
not exactly talking about ethics. But ethics is certainly the subtext here,
because I think it's obvious that humans perform and live better when they're
treated the way they ought to be treated, with their basic needs being met.

Commonsense ethical rules aren't arbitrary; it isn't a coincidence that people
fare badly, and perform poorly, when they are treated badly and are made to
work and live in squalor.

~~~
ido
I would go on a limb an say you have never been to India?

I'll let someone else play hobby-anthropologist as to the reasons why, but
complete disregard to the plights of the poor is _rampant_ among the middle
and higher class Indians.

~~~
exergy
I'll take the armchair anthropologist bait. It's rampant because there are so
many of us.

If you see a homeless man rotting away, your heart goes out to him. If you see
ten thousand of them, then...meh. Human empathy is finite unfortunately, and
available in vanishing quantities among the Indian rich. The Indian rich are
vile in a way that cannot be adequately described in words. Those of us who've
made it outside India and are living abroad often like to discuss the vast
differences in the value of life in the west vs east, and also the much higher
dignity of labour.

------
crazygringo
Sometimes it's useful to remember just how privileged we are to be working in
tech...

...many of us get microkitchens with as many La Croix and "delightful" snacks
as we can consume. While for others, just a switch to lamps that produce less
heat is a major life improvement.

~~~
nimbius
speak for yourself, I work as a full time engine mechanic for a regional chain
of repair shops. \- its a full time battle just to convince some management
that OSHA is real. earplugs and gloves were a luxury item under my last boss.

\- one of our managers stole tools all the time and fired a technician just to
cover his ass. That technician burned his car to the ground with a road flare
in a mcdonalds parking lot.

-our former owner was arrested for illegally dumping waste chemicals in a protected habitat, and instead of just paying the fine the madman elected to serve 4 years in prison.

\- I was asked to testify against her.

\- two words: angry boomer. The number of times I've had a child of the
greatest generation grab me by the collar and scream obscenities at me for
something stupid borders on the absurd. Ive had one of them corner me in a
hallway and refuse to 'let me go' until I discounted the work on his daughters
car.

\- People shit on you for doing this job, or openly remark that you're
incompetent. Fun fact, my coworker in paint and body has a doctorate in
mathematics from Pepperdyne. My transmission tech team lead was a former
Formula 1 race mechanic. I build my own Linux containers and run my own
Kubernetes cluster. We arent all just sweat and wrenches.

~~~
sandworm101
>> two words: angry boomer.

Yup. In my early 30s I had one challenge me to a fight after a lifeguard
ejected him from the "fast lane" for swimming too slowly. I said I'd meet him
in the parking lot, then left the back way. I still wonder whether he showed
up. I assume something was wrong with his meds. While riding in a group of 20+
sportbikes we had another try to start a fight with us at a gas station.
Twenty people on bikes dressed like power rangers and this old man starts
throwing punches because he was stuck in line behind us. We laughed and rode
away.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Any theories as to why those "boomers" are so angry?

~~~
close04
Many people tend to be less patient with age (rather than more patient). They
see younger people as a disappointment and treat them as such.

I have to wonder though if millennials won't get to the exact same point. If
feels like this is the classic generation divide rather than a specific
"boomer" issue.

~~~
sandworm101
There is an idea among boomers that they literally own the past, and all
things that spring from it. For instance, they talk of social security not as
a government program but a property right, something personal that they own.
Reductions in it therefore aren't cutbacks but theft. If you feel you are
being stolen from, it is easy to see anyone else receiving benefits from
government as collaborators in that theft.

They also cling to 1950s ideas about work and religion. They really do believe
that hard work brings prosperity. So young people who aren't succeeding
obviously just aren't trying hard enough. We know the world is more complex.
They don't. When those ideas are challenged, say by a group of young people
inventing cellphone apps rather than toiling in a shoe factory, their internal
conflict expresses as anger.

The anger at us motorcycles I chalk up to reduced mobility. Old people feel
trapped in their bodies. Movement is difficult or even painful. So they are
jealous of those motorcycles whipping by them on the highway. Another
manifestation of this are the "stand your ground" laws that literally protect
one's right not to move away when confronted by a more mobile person.

------
mannykannot
An alternative way at looking at this is that, if you are pushing your
employees to their physical limits, you can squeeze more out of them if you
can prevent them from becoming overheated.

This is a negative way of looking at it, but I think, unfortunately, that it
is realistic. Beyond the short term, the only way this will benefit the
workers is if there is something external to limit the ways it can be
exploited solely to increase productivity. Otherwise, the market will do its
thing.

~~~
Retric
Not working in 85+ degree temperatures is a benefit on it's own.

~~~
mc32
Back when i was in high school, i did a summer job in a building without A/C.
We got to do nothing if the temp hit 97, or whatever was the local regulation.
small “pleasures”.

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CamelCaseName
This is a really interesting article! I recommend anyone just checking out the
comments to take a look -- it is quite short.

I wonder if there's a real opportunity here. Buy up Indian manufacturing firms
with significant books of business and introduce productivity enhancing
changes like LED lights. Of course, this is a simplification, but if the
effect is as pronounced as described in the article, it seems like a fantastic
opportunity.

I rarely see news about how business operates, or stories of business success
and decline in India. Does anyone know where I could read more?

Thank you to the moderators for boosting this story after 3 days, it
definitely spiked my curiosity. I presently import a few products from China
and love learning about the challenges these manufacturers face.

~~~
NTDF9
There are plenty of small businesses in India going through productivity
transitions and becoming bigger exporters. Air conditioning has been the
easiest gain in the last 2 decades.

More recently it is mobile payments and computerized inventory and financing.
The companies making these investments quickly become local franchises or
quality exporters who can charge more.

Of course the owners and employees are richer for doing this, beating
competition.

~~~
ipince
Do you have some example companies to read about?

~~~
NTDF9
These are really small neighborhood businesses. I remember walking down the
streets and there were some local sweet shops with delicious street food. They
used to sell it for Rs 5 (less than 10 cents) at the time.

Add some inflation, air conditioning, hygiene (using gloves for example),
seating, led lights and these things cost Rs 30 now (50 cents).

You'd think the price would shirk customers off especially since competition
was selling the same stuff for Rs 10.

But no. They got featured in local TV a few times, got large contracts to
supply these food items to events. They mechanized their production keeping
their recipe the same and franchised their brand, opened websites, created
presence in malls and started exporting these foods outside India as a
packaged food item.

All this in 15 years.

[http://www.jumboking.co.in/](http://www.jumboking.co.in/)

------
rayiner
> The company, Shahi Exports, has more than 50 factories, employs about
> 100,000 workers and supplies brands that include Gap, Uniqlo, Zara and H&M.
> Some of these brands had encouraged the company to be more environmentally
> responsible by switching out the fluorescent tube lights in its factories
> for LEDs that would consume about one-seventh the amount of energy.

Maybe Americans and European yuppies can pay a couple of extra bucks for their
Gap t-shirts and Gap can insist that Indian factory owners install air
conditioning instead?

~~~
jws
_…switching out the fluorescent tube lights in its factories for LEDs that
would consume about one-seventh the amount of energy._

Something is wrong here. Fluorescent tubes to LEDs is more like a ½ savings. I
suppose if you reduce overall lighting and provide task lighting you could get
to 1/7, but the technologies aren’t that far off in efficiency.

Check luminous efficiency in Wikipedia for a nice table.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_efficacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_efficacy)

~~~
fencepost
The fluorescent systems in there are likely older and less efficient, so at
the lower end of the range. For this kind of industrial setup you can probably
do more efficient DC directly to the lights with fewer and more efficient
conversions from AC, and there may be other improvements available (solar
tubes, dimmable LEDs, task lighting, etc.). 7x seems high but likely
achievable.

------
tweedledee
I wonder if the spectrum difference in the light sources would also have an
effect?

~~~
taneq
As a fictional example, in Asimov's "Prelude to Foundation" one of the
locations (Dahl, a geothermal power district) offset the sweltering heat by
running dimmer, reddish lighting, which apparently had a psychological effect
on the inhabitants' perception of temperature.

In real life, I wouldn't be surprised if offices choose to run high-colour-
temperature lights in order to keep workers more awake and less drowsy (the
exact effect that software like F.lux tries to offset).

------
wiradikusuma
"There have always been these theories that part of why the Northern
Hemisphere grew faster than the Southern Hemisphere was because of temperature
issues," — it could also because the weather is nicer outside so we go surfing
instead of working?

I'm from tropical country, and there's a saying that you can literally plant a
stick and it will grow up a tree. Unfortunately it makes us lazy.

------
dghughes
I wonder if the opposite is true? In my region low income people work
seasonally in fish plants. Although now many fish plants hire people from
outside the country because they can pay them less.

The fish plants are wet and very cold the workers wear rubber gloves and often
have their hands in ice. If 30C is the heat stress threshold is there a cold
stress threshold?

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saagarjha
It's really great when a change like this aimed at improving workers' lives
ends up helping company profits overall. It helps give credence to the idea
that treating your employees well is not only a nice thing to do, but that
it's better from a financial standpoint as well.

------
bipson
Link to the text only version:
[https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=629871725](https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=629871725)

I still think NPR should consider redirecting to the requested article. Can't
be that hard, can it?

------
KaoruAoiShiho
Nice, always exciting when academia produces immediate impact.

------
messe
> Decline and visit plaintext site

This doesn't count as opt-out by default behavour for tracking. Have any
complaints been made in the EU toward NPR?

EDIT: Glad this is getting some attention, whether it be upvoting or
downvoting.

~~~
toast_coder
GDPR is criminalizing all websites because compliance is impossible. It puts
european officials in exactly the possition they want to be in, everyone is
breaking the law an enforcement is a matter of who their friends are.

Majors websites are taking steps to remove access from eu. This will only get
worse. Be prepared to live in the environmet your politicians have created, or
be prepared to come back to planet reality.

I speak personally, as a technical architect for international sales
organization. People who basically are not in that position don't realize the
way the law is written that compliance is not feasible. You are simply
gambling that the shakedown form the enforceres won't be to bad.

~~~
messe
> GDPR is criminalizing all websites because compliance is impossible

I disagree, compliance isn't particularly difficult unless you're going out of
your way to do something harmful to your users.

> be prepared to come back to planet reality.

Please refrain from hyperboly, I'd much rather a civil discussion about this.

~~~
will4274
> compliance isn't particularly difficult unless you're going out of your way
> to do something harmful to your users.

Please stop spreading this FUD. There are tons of architectures (e.g. Apache
Kafka) which were totally sane and require total reorganization to become
compliant. Dismissing this as "not very difficult" and adding a snide little
attack on anybody who disagrees is untrue and an ad hominem to boot.

Complying with GDPR is costly and significant work. If implememtations match
legislative aspirations, it could also be a significant boon to consumers.
However, legitimate questions about the level of compliance, particularly from
companies with unscrupulous business models leave it currently vague whether
the boon will be realized in full, in part, or not at all.

Though I know hacker news discourages political discourse and meta, I would
interject - almost all political topics have upsides and downsides. Pretending
that the downsides don't exist on any policy isn't passionate advocacy - it's
just degrading the level of discourse.

~~~
bipson
I think you have the definition of FUD backwards

