
In poor neighborhoods, McDonald’s have become de-facto community centers - wallflower
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/08/mcdonalds-community-centers-us-physical-social-networks
======
smokey_the_bear
McDonalds is the only restaurant I enjoy eating at with my 2 and 3 year olds.
Every other restaurant is a slog to get through the meal. Honestly I'd eat
there more often if it weren't for the social stigma of it. (I live in
Berkeley).

I am pretty sure the cheeseburger, apple slices, and chocolate milk are not
much worse, and probably better, than the typical fare on a slapped together
kids meal.

When I was a kid, my dad would take me to the local McDonalds to do math,
several times a week. They'd let us sit there ordering nothing but sodas in a
comfy booth for hours. These are some of my fondest childhood memories.

There are some issues with McDonalds, but it is a pleasant user experience.

~~~
stcredzero
People finding community of some form is not just a good thing, it's an
essential thing to human life. It should always be lauded. However, there is a
lot of socioeconomic and sub-cultural in-group/out-group judgement in US
society, all of which feels absolutely justified by those doing the judging.

[http://www.vox.com/2016/4/21/11451378/smug-american-
liberali...](http://www.vox.com/2016/4/21/11451378/smug-american-liberalism)

In reality, it's all exactly the same sort of crap that was portrayed on Mad
Men. Such prejudice is the same, whether it is enacted by tweed jacket wearing
Ivy Leaguers, rural low-brow native americans, "poor white trash," urban black
people, affluent Koreans, undergraduate students, "Social Justice Warriors,"
or Bay Area programmers. I should know, because I've been on the receiving end
of it from all of the above, while also being a member of about half those
groups. (Often having diametrically opposed things projected onto me!)

When it comes down to it, people should be given a chance as individuals, not
summarily judged as units of a group. (Martin Luther King Jr. put it best...)

I swear, when I hear some fellow "liberals" talking about their own rural
underclass or Republicans or Christians, the kind of disdain that comes across
seems like something that should no longer exist in the 21st century, outside
of movies about the Jim Crow south.

~~~
kristianc
> Knowing, for example, that the Founding Fathers were all secular deists.
> Knowing that you're actually, like, 30 times more likely to shoot yourself
> than an intruder. Knowing that those fools out in Kansas are voting against
> their own self-interest and that the trouble is Kansas doesn't know any
> better. Knowing all the jokes that signal this knowledge.

Doesn't Vox exist to perpetuate this kind of nonsense? It's undergraduate
level politics dressed up as stone tablet commandments. Isn't Vox's very
reason to provide political analysis to those otherwise 'too stupid' to know
what's going on?

~~~
nikdaheratik
I'm from Kansas. I grew up with these kinds of voters. The problem isn't that
they "don't know any better". It's that the way the party system is aligned in
the U.S., you can vote for one side that may help your economic situation but
is pretty much in favor of everything you abhor socially, or you can vote for
the other side that won't do much for you economically, but at least pretends
to care about the same things you do.

If the Republicans made themselves more like the Lib Dems in Australia, or the
Christian Dems in Germany they'd have a clean sweep. But then they'd also lose
Wall Street, large chunks of the Libertarian wing of Silicon Valley, and would
probably end up having to fracture first.

~~~
chiaro
The LDP are a bit of a joke party in Australia, did you just mean the
Coalition?

~~~
nikdaheratik
Probably. Still figuring some of these parties out. All I know here is that
many of the issues like healthcare, gun control, smoking regulations, etc. are
mostly supported by both the left-leaning and right-leaning parties here. But
support for any one of these issues would be enough to get you kicked out of
the Republicans in the U.S.

The point being, you could likely make a party in the U.S. that kept most of
the socially conservative stuff from the GOP and still picked up more of the
economically "liberal" issues in the U.S., many of which are moderate in
Europe, Australia, and elsewhere, and make it work.

~~~
infinite8s
That's exactly what Trump has tapped into (ie anti-free trade like the left;
anti-immigration, pro-life, pro-guns like the right). It's the same populism
underlying early 20th century European movements.

------
jernfrost
Bizarre how the article seems to present this as a hopeful and positive thing
about McDonalds.

To me it is just another indicator of how broken American society is. A fast
food place serving terrible and unhealthy food is becoming a gathering place
for poor people who are probably the ones most in need of a healthier and
better lifestyle.

It is also a sad reminder of how society has gone so utterly wrong when the
cheapest food is the absolutely worst food.

This is of course not McDonalds fault, but society has allowed huge chains
pushing cheap unhealthy food to the masses flourish. It isn't just about the
food, but the sort of cultural wasteland a place like McDonalds is. Everything
mass produced and equal everywhere. A country priding itself in diversity is
drowning in homogeneity.

~~~
dreamdu5t
What makes it a cultural wasteland, exactly? Where are people _supposed_ to be
socializing, if not the place they like to eat? Mass production is what
enables McDonald's to provide good food at super cheap prices. Probably the
best food value for your money in the entire USA.

McDonald's food isn't unhealthy as part of a balanced diet. It's no less
healthy than chipotle if you're getting a soda. I don't eat there but
McDonald's is simply amazing for providing so much great food at rock-bottom
prices.

~~~
ghaff
Some of the elitism on this thread is absolutely astounding. And I say this as
someone who is elitist to at least some degree but I would never think of
making some of the comments I read here--and certainly not in public.

~~~
voxic11
Yeah it's really something to see. I especially love the guy wondering why all
the lower cast people can't just join him at his nice restaurant in downtown
Toronto rather and just spend a few more dollors for his obviously superior
food.

------
helipad
In many communities in the UK, it's the pub.

On the positive side, it brings a genuine sense of community where you hang
out alone, forge new bonds or maintain old ones. People come and go asking if
so-and-so has been in today. Before mobiles, families would call the pub and
leave messages for each other. Class lines were much less defined. You leave
things behind the bar for other people to pick up later.

On the negative side, well, alcohol, and all the issues that brings.

~~~
tonyedgecombe
Most of the pubs near me are restaurants first, pubs second.

------
stevecalifornia
I recently went to a McDonald's in Austria. I was blown away by how they were
going exactly for the community center vibe.

There was a bar with four or five internet connected tablets a half-basketball
court next to the jungle gym and patio seating like you'd find at an upscale
resteraunt. It also had a dedicated coffee and desert bar. Also, the cash
registers were gone and in their place were four huge touchscreens for
ordering. The place was like a restaurant from 50 years in the future.

I was shocked at how nice it was and that we don't have any in the US.

~~~
xeromal
There are a few in the US. They are just in select locations. I wrote software
for McDs a while back and they were always coming up with high-tech
initiatives. Too bad the environment was cut throat or I would have enjoyed
working there.

~~~
keithpeter
What was the cause of the cut-throatness if I may presume to ask such a thing?
Some form of performance related pay or just heavy headquarters politics?

(in UK McDonalds is a franchise operation I think, not too sure, so each
restaurant is its own little enterprise with standardised training &c)

------
RankingMember
I remember driving through a Native American reservation in the Southwest and
stopping at a McDonald's after seeing not much of anything for miles and
miles. I walked in and it was like everyone in the reservation was there
hanging out it was so alive with conversation and activity. I'm not a
McDonald's fan, but I'm glad they exist to serve purposes like that, because
I'm not sure where else the people in that one would've gathered.

~~~
tobltobs
The interesting question is, if this is a sign for an achievement of McDonalds
or a failure of the society?

~~~
wutbrodo
I wish the article had expanded on the unsuitability of community centers due
to their bureaucracy. It just mentions it in a couple of words and never
elaborates. It seems like it should be easy to provide just a simple public
space with basic amenities, without even any activities (which is the low bar
set by McDonald's). The big exception of course being that food isn't served,
but running a little competent sandwich shop or something is far from
impossible (every bus and train station I've been too manages that).

~~~
Normal_gaussian
It is the bureaucracy that amazed me about the Sikh community - or should I
say lack of it. As long as you obey a few simple rules (essentially just no
alcohol, tobacco, or being under the influence, cover hair, no shoes) you
pretty much what you will.

Notably with the Sikh's the langar hall (where langar, a free meal, is always
served) is the hub of a Gurdwara - seemingly food is _the_ great social
leveller!

------
billmalarky
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place)

~~~
futuravenir
These need to be mandatory installations in all communities. Non-commercial,
accessible spaces for people to congregate. It's a human-requirement.

------
Rudism
A few years ago my wife and I were coming back from a road trip to visit some
friends and family in Canada, and we crossed back into the US at the
Detroit/Windsor crossing. We were basically running on fumes by the time we
got through the border, so drove around the Detroit side a bit in search of a
gas station (it took a while to find one that wasn't clearly abandoned or in
complete shambles).

One thing I noticed is that among all of the boarded-up, graffiti-strewn
buildings, homeless people sleeping in the gutters, abandoned houses and cars,
the one shining beacon of normalcy was the McDonalds. The building was in
perfect condition, the lot was clean, lights were on--it was very striking in
contrast to the almost post-apocalyptic looking area of the city that
surrounded it.

I can totally understand why such a place would naturally attract people as a
place to congregate in a neighborhood as poor as that one. Inexpensive food
plus a building that not only still functions as shelter, but has electricity,
bathrooms, heat/air conditioning--all things that you may very well not have
at home (assuming you even have a home).

~~~
spike021
For what it's worth, that's just one example of a McDonalds.

There was one location nearby where I went to college and its lot was
frequently used by drug dealers and all kinds of shady types.

------
epx
In Brazil we have a similar effect with shopping centers/malls, that tend to
be pretty, clean and safe, not just a bunch of stores (the store rent inside
the mall is higher than a street store). Shopping center becomes the default
place to go since there is food there, it is open on Sundays. One downside is
that stores are mostly empty, which negates a bit the original idea (-->
shopping <\-- center, not meeting center). The only crowded place is where the
food is, and the only really long line is the McDonalds ice cream.

Then some people began to complain that there were too many "ugly people"
(mostly poor and young teens that went there for the very same reasons as
anyone else). There were some episodes of security barring the entrance of
unaccompanied teens that looked "poor". Of course it didn't last long, cooler
heads prevailed and I guess that McFlurries were not selling well :)

------
splawn
This thread seems like its become a de-facto community center for high horses.

------
intellegacy
when I lived out of my car in SoCal, I wasn't familiar with starbucks yet and
so I basically used McDonalds as my table/office/wi-fi/hangout spot for the
first month.

I have a soft spot for McDonalds despite what its critics may say. It's an
inclusive place which accepts everyone: homeless, indigent, wealthy, kids,
adults. It is cheap, unpretentious, and welcoming.

That said, this was a special McDonalds in Pasadena that was clean, had
numerous power outlets, and was exceptionally well-run. The McDonalds in the
rest of LA were disgusting in comparison and refused to provide outlets,
presumably to keep out homeless.

I eventually switched to Starbucks because starbucks always has outlets, the
coffee was slightly better (and had more options) and the wifi was
significantly faster

------
ticviking
I often work out of my neighborhood McDonald's when working from home. It's
about the only non-faith based multi-generational space in town. The mix of
kids, a few other freelancers, and retired folks is unique.

~~~
bovermyer
Coffee shops fill this role for my area. There is a Starbucks near my
apartment that is a thriving multi-nationality community hub. This surprised
me, since prior to experiencing this, most of the coffee shops I've been to
have had a more... niche... clientele.

------
_Codemonkeyism
What astonishes me, is how often poor people go eating in a restaurant (e.g.
breakfast in the first paragraph) when making breakfast at home (or lunch) is
so much cheaper (as a fun exercise we often calculate the prices of our home
lunch).

Although I have a nice income, 80% of the time I bring my own food to work
because restaurants are too expensive in my opinion to regularly use them.

As a side note: I have the suspicion I'm addicted to fast food
(McDonalds/Burger King). When I don't go there for some weeks, I have no urge
and I'm fine. But as soon as I eat there, I have the urge for days to go back
and have another burger.

~~~
niftich
To make food at home, you either need fresh, perishable ingredients and/or
time to prep and cook. Even accessing fresh ingredients may be a hassle (see:
food deserts), so eating off the dollar menu often feels like a better use of
your money than making the trek to the grocery store to buy some perishables
that you then have to cook before they go bad.

It's similar to why poor people buy poor-quality shoes more often, as opposed
to one high-quality pair once a year.

EDIT: or cars. Poor people buy cars that are in poor condition because that's
all they can afford, and they spend more money on it overall than if they
could've gotten a better-quality car instead. It's expensive to be poor.

~~~
harpastum
"The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they
managed to spend less money.

Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus
allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an
affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then
leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those
were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so
thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the
feel of the cobbles.

But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could
afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry
in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would
have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have
wet feet.

This was the Captain Samuel Vimes 'Boots' theory of socioeconomic unfairness."

\- Terry Pratchett, Men at Arms: The Play

~~~
gardano
I immediately thought of Sam Vimes too. Well done!

------
em500
And in rich neighborhoods, Starbucks?

~~~
colmvp
As much as I love small cafes, I have to say, Starbucks has grown on me,
specifically living in a nice neighbourhood. The Starbucks near me is always
very clean, has a very nice interior, plenty of outlets for laptops, fast
wifi, very clean washrooms, and pleasant baristas. They even have a large
communal table which they allow meetups to book. And plenty of people ranging
from families to students walk from their detached homes to chill. I know that
not all Starbucks are like that (one NYC location had a filthy bathroom, one
in San Bruno is always packed with inventory boxes and people) but I think
they were able to foster a community and place of comfort for their cafe.

~~~
bitwize
People hate on Starbucks but it has brought halfway decent coffee to the
masses. Yes, the locally owned specialty coffee shop will be better, but
Starbucks coffee is not actively offensive the way McDonald's, Dunkin Donuts,
or office drip coffeemaker (or worse, vending machine) coffee are. Back in the
80s, "cappuccino" was a signal of rich-toff status. These days anyone with $5
in their pocket (so perhaps excluding the absolute poorest) can have one. Plus
they really put effort into making something resembling the "upscale café"
experience available to the masses. Which means that small town cafés, in
order to cater to young hipsters with money to burn, have had to up _their_
game.

~~~
dota_fanatic
I think you're overestimating the number of people in the states who have $5
in their pocket on any given day to blow on coffee, having said 'perhaps
excluding the absolute poorest'. :(

~~~
colmvp
A few days ago, I was blown away by kids at the Starbucks probably around aged
10 (give or take a few years) teaching one another how to pay their Starbucks
balance with their iPhone. In my youth I never had such an expensive piece of
hardware in my pocket, nor the cash to spend on $4 drinks.

------
gyardley
This happens everywhere, with the establishment varying with the culture.

In much of Canada, the local community center is the Tim Hortons. My labor
studies professor back in the day wrote his doctoral thesis on this and
(unfairly, in my opinion) won an Ig Nobel for it:

[http://ig-nobel.silk.co/page/Steve-Penfold](http://ig-
nobel.silk.co/page/Steve-Penfold)

------
peterwwillis
Wal-Mart and McDonald's are the modern equivalent of the diner and malt shop
that middle-class white people may be more familiar with (it seems this
article was written with a specific readership in mind). Go to any small town
or poor rural area, and these are the places people congregate. It has almost
nothing to do with food, and more to do with a social space designed for
people to gather comfortably.

In Italy it's the piazza. In the UK & Ireland it's the pub. In more enclosed
neighborhoods in the US it may simply be your neighbor's stoop, or a certain
street or alley. Access to a social space facilitates human interaction &
culture.

~~~
Pamar
In Italy we have Cafè's, which are usually in a piazza, but there are also
other options.

------
hackuser
What's interesting is that the Guardian and HN feel the need to appraise us of
what happens in low-income communities.

On one hand, it's realistic - most people reading the Guardian or HN don't
know (despite the fact that both are nearly as accessible in low-income
communities as wealthy ones, at least via phones).

On the other, what does it say that the readers have to learn about it in a
newspaper or Internet forum. It might as well be a story about culture in a
foreign country instead of within a short drive for most readers.

------
abandonliberty
I was really impressed by the public spaces and squares in European designed
cites. Real Mexican cities have lots of it as well.

We have far less spaces for people, so this is understandable.

------
protomyth
I would love to see someone do a purpose built place with a targeted menu to
see how it would do as a modern version of a community center.

1) big glass windows with good interior lighting

~~~
niftich
In some parts of Europe, McDonald's is actually a somewhat upmarket option,
and fulfills a purpose similar to Starbucks in the US.

Some downtown ones are in historic buildings with elegant furniture. This is a
bit atypical, but here's a nice one in Budapest:
[https://mic.com/articles/85625/this-is-the-world-s-
fanciest-...](https://mic.com/articles/85625/this-is-the-world-s-fanciest-
mcdonald-s)

~~~
topspin
When McDonald's opened in Moscow in the 1980's one of the things people
frequently mentioned after standing in line for hours was the high quality of
the food. It was normal McDonald's fair tailored to the local market. We're
pretty spoiled people in the US. Some large fraction of the species can only
dream of eating food as good as what McDonald's sells.

~~~
emp_zealoth
Hate to break it to you, but from what I've been told by anyone that went to
US: Non-US McDonald's food is way way WAY better than what you get in US
McDonald's... Also, this comment really rubbed me the wrong way. I'd say
extreme superiority complex with a side of slight ignorance To russians first
McDonald's in Moscow was like Berlin wall falling to germans. It was complete
antithesis of the Soviet Union.

~~~
niftich
In my experience, between McDonald's in the US and eastern Europe, the food
tastes largely the same, but in Europe it is better prepared.

The meat isn't greasy and never burnt, the wrapper is pristine. The fries are
fresh and crispy, never soggy. Service is usually very fast; many places have
timers that show how long the order took to be fulfilled.

Overall, it's a more polished experience in Europe.

------
pjmorris
In the early 1970's, after seeing the kids off to school, my mom and dad would
get a cup of coffee at the McDonald's at the edge of the neighborhood, and sit
and talk. The employees eventually told them that they thought mom and dad
were having an affair; why else would they arrange to meet away from home?

I only tell this as an off-topic fond memory, but perhaps it also serves to
support the community idea through being a safe, cheap 'third place', and
through the notion that the employees and customers treat each other as
relationships, not just transactions.

------
greenspot
McDonalds is _the_ master in orchestrating food. I love McDonalds and I think
their hamburger is the best hamburger, their french fries are the best and all
the other menu options have this typical McDonalds design--everything, every
single piece and ingredient is meticulously thought through and the final dish
has a perfect taste. The taste you get for the carb in-take is unmatched.

It's cool to hate McDonalds, I know and I don't care. All my friends would
never take their kids to McDonalds. They even don't take their kids to the
movies. This is our generation, all they want is 'organic', 'low fat' and
'please don't hurt' stickers on their overpriced crap food without having a
clue how nutrition really works. Especially here in Europe, it's about
positioning yourself as healthy and smart when educating others about
McDonalds. All obesity in this world is caused by McDonalds, yes sure.

It's true that most of McDonalds' customers rather belong to the one end of
the spectrum but who cares? I still think that it's in particular the lower
middle class which hates McDonalds and which wants to put themselves above
even lower classes. They cannot stop telling others that McDonalds is bad and
they have to get now some authentic burger at an underground burger place or a
healthy Bircher Muesli for their little ones. Btw, the same folks don't go to
Starbucks for the same reasons--because they know a better non-franchise place
for their ridiculous fair traded organic flat white.

Actually, it's not McDonalds those people don't like--it's their desperation
and urge to be something better than they really are, the fear that people
confuse them with being white trash instead of middle class. This is the main
reason they buy overpriced organic food at 'upscale' locations. The upper
classes do not care at all what others think and go from time to time to
McDonalds. They don't need to pretend anything and are aware that going to
McDonalds from time to time does not mean that's their daily diet. They
understand that's about what you eat, that especially the total daily carb in-
take and the right balance of carbs, protein and fat is crucial. McDonalds
offers everything to eat well _and_ balanced but it's often the lack of
knowledge and education if people cannot manage this balance.

With kids it's even better, McDonalds is the rare example where kids are
welcome and it's a pleasure with them. Kids hate long sessions in any
restaurant and all money left there is wasted when all kids want is a bowl of
fries with ketchup. At McDonalds they love every second and usually they eat
more than just the fries. This make the total experience a good and _healthy_
one.

For the record, I am super thin and live a healthy lifestyle as my kids do.

~~~
balls187
Have you tried making your own mcdonald's french fries?

This process was tedious, but surprisingly effective:
[http://aht.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/05/the-burger-
lab-h...](http://aht.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/05/the-burger-lab-how-to-
make-perfect-mcdonalds-style-french-fries.html)

I did not have an accurate way to measure the temp of the oil, which is
important.

Also I reused peanut oil, fresh oil would make the color nicer and a more pure
taste.

~~~
ghaff
I do like their fries--though that's about the only thing. To me, McDonalds
has better fries than places like In-and-Out but their burgers are far
inferior.

~~~
sturmen
I agree that McDonald's has the best fries in the game.

Although In-N-Out's fries (when ordered plain) are some of the worst. As is
custom, Animal Style is the way to go!

~~~
DrScump
Try them "well done". Fresh potatoes cut in-store moments before cooking
(McD's are pre-cut and frozen).

~~~
ghaff
>McD's are pre-cut and frozen

So?

There are lots and lots of reasons with many types of food to prefer fresh.
But it's also possible to fetishize fresh over frozen for no particular
reason. (As is often the case with seafood.)

I can only report my experience, which is that I'll sometimes grab (only) some
McD's fries when on a long drive and I generally avoid either In-N-Out or
ShakeShack fries when getting the rare burger at those places (which I rather
enjoy).

It's probably also worth noting though that the premium fast burger places
are, to greater or lesser degrees, (unsurprisingly) a non-trivial uplift over
McDonalds.

~~~
DrScump

      So?
    

Just stating fact without making judgments.

    
    
      a non-trivial uplift over McDonalds
    

I agree. McD's price for their "premium" sandwiches are a poor value compared
to In-n-Out, Five Guys, etc.

~~~
ghaff
>Just stating fact without making judgments.

Fair enough. But "frozen" gets so often used as an automatic disparagement
relative to fresh.

To your other point, I personally can't stand McD's burgers so would avoid
them unless I were starving so In-n-Out etc. are a better value if I have a
choice. (Doubt if I've had a McD's burger in more than a decade.) No judgment
about people who do. Just not for me.

------
ecommerceguy
Most people don't realize it, but McDonald's is not a burger-flipping
restaurant chain; it is one of the world's best real estate portfolios.
Franchisees flip the burgers. McDonald's simply owns the best commercial
property all over the world. Think about it, every town and city in the
Country and many of the world, who owns the best lot on highest traffic
intersection? McDonald's.

~~~
mac01021
I thought the franchisees owned the property too, and that the franchiser just
licenses the IP and provides the foodstuff.

~~~
DrScump
There are corporate-owned restaurants, and there are franchises.

Stores can be on leased or owned land.

For example, something like 8 McDonald's in San Francisco have closed or are
closing in the past few years, many because of lost leases, supposedly.

One rumored to be threatened location is 3rd and Townsend, a great location
just one block from AT&T Park and a neighborhood institution (it was there
long before the ballpark).

~~~
ecommerceguy
"We are in the real estate business, not the hamburger business." Ray Croc,
Founder of McDonalds.

"If a location is good enough to buy, we want to build on it right away and be
in there before the competition. Pump some money and activity into a town, and
they’ll remember you for it." Ray Croc, Founder of McDonalds

------
codemonkeymike
It seem to me that the newly renovated McDonalds are more like Panera's so I
can see the appeal to go there to hang and converse. My friends and I used to
always hang out at McDonalds when we were kids because they don't care if you
loiter for hours.

~~~
fluxquanta
>It seem to me that the newly renovated McDonalds are more like Panera's

The McDonalds in my hometown used to be decorated completely in 1950's
memorabilia. Lots of mint green and pink colors, old photographs of McDonalds
of the time on the walls, big laminate figures of Elvis and Marilyn Monroe,
models of cars of the time in a big display case, and even a working 45 record
jukebox. It was a really cool place that a unique vibe to it.

A few years back they "renovated" it to look, as you say, like a generic
Panera Bread and it lost all its charm and appeal, not to mention the memories
I associated with the place as a kid. Until I was like 13 or 14 years old I
thought ALL McDonalds looked like that.

~~~
codemonkeymike
I can understand, the McDonalds in my hometown had the ball pit and all the
1950's fixings until about 5 years ago when they ripped it all out and did the
same but the real killer was that the ball pit was replaced with a bunch of
gamecube stations.

------
redthrow
McDonald's often provides playgrounds for kids because local governments
don't.

[https://youtu.be/F7IQyIWIcdI?t=12m42s](https://youtu.be/F7IQyIWIcdI?t=12m42s)

------
Spooky23
Not just in poor neighborhoods. I worked at one in high school... There were
all sorts of regulars who'd stop in, especially in the morning.

There was one group of WW2 vets who would come in every month.

~~~
greedo
When I worked for the Golden Arches in the early 80's, there was a daily group
of 10 retired guys who ordered coffee, rarely a danish, and sat in a couple of
tables for a few hours. They bitched about the weather, about politics, about
"those damn kids" and especially when the price of a cup of coffee went up. It
was a ritual in their day, and they weren't some downtrodden group; these were
guys who had stories of WW2 that would chill you. They built this country and
never considered Mickey D's with the disdain the current generation seems to
feel.

~~~
pjlegato
Many younger people today find it hard to fathom, but the suburbs and fast
food car culture were not (entirely) a capitalist plot executed by General
Motors and McDonald's to brainwash the populace into unwitting wage-slave
servitude.

The WW2 generation built and adopted all that _voluntarily_ , because _they
like it_ and think it's a much better way of life than how they lived before
the war: in densely packed, dirty cities; unable to remotely afford a car;
being _obligated_ to cook for hours every single day before you could even eat
a meal, and then often going to bed hungry because there was just not enough
food to go around due to the Great Depression.

They moved to the suburbs because they generally view having your very own car
to drive places, and being able to pick up dinner on the way home in five
minutes, as massive lifestyle improvements rather than impediments.

~~~
dragonwriter
> Many younger people today find it hard to fathom, but the suburbs and fast
> food car culture were not (entirely) a capitalist plot executed by General
> Motors and McDonald's to brainwash the populace into unwitting wage-slave
> servitude.

Yeah, a significant part of it was about race rather than capitalism.

~~~
pjlegato
Yes, racism existed (and still exists today.) However, the degree to which
racism played a part in the construction of suburban America has now been
greatly distorted and exaggerated by multiple generations of leftist academic
historians, as part of a much larger political and cultural program aimed at
disparaging traditional society in general.

This is in turn part of the larger and extensively documented phenomenon of
leftists having come to control almost all American academic discourse during
the past few decades and systematically stifling any dissenting narratives,
especially prevalent in the social sciences.

While some racists certainly existed, the vast, vast majority of individuals
who moved from the cities to the suburbs neither knew nor cared about any
racism that was going on. It was not a factor at all in their personal
decisions to build or move to suburbia.

~~~
dragonwriter
> While some racists certainly existed, the vast, vast majority of individuals
> who moved from the cities to the suburbs neither knew nor cared about any
> racism that was going on.

The people moving may or may not have known (though I think you seriously
understate the degree to which they did), but what is more important is that
the people designing and executing the policies (including those of banks and
those of governments) which shaped the suburbs definitely and deliberately
were not only aware of but actively applying race-based discrimination in so
doing.

------
darawk
Does this not strike anyone else as pretty blatant native advertising?

~~~
alecdbrooks
It fits with Chris Arnade's other reporting on addiction, but it does seem a
bit too focused on McDonald's and a bit too uniformly positive (aside from
noting that readers might "sneer").

The Guardian does do native advertising [0], and I find their labeling policy
unclear. This case study [1] by their native advertising division, Guardian
Labs, highlights videos that are very clearly labeled [2] but also an article
[3] that doesn't seem to be. Their policy on commercial content [4] seems to
suggest that everything is clearly labeled, but at least in this case they
either didn't follow it or ignored the distinctions in the case study.

[0]: [http://www.adweek.com/news/press/guardians-unusual-take-
nati...](http://www.adweek.com/news/press/guardians-unusual-take-native-
ads-155715)

[1]: [http://guardianlabs.theguardian.com/projects/silent-
circle-t...](http://guardianlabs.theguardian.com/projects/silent-circle-the-
power-of-privacy)

[2]: [http://www.theguardian.com/media-network/ng-
interactive/2015...](http://www.theguardian.com/media-network/ng-
interactive/2015/sep/29/the-power-of-privacy-video-series)

[3]:
[https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/oct/18/guardian-...](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/oct/18/guardian-
readers-on-privacy-we-trust-government-over-corporations)

[4]: [https://www.theguardian.com/info/2016/jan/25/content-
funding](https://www.theguardian.com/info/2016/jan/25/content-funding)

------
walljm
My dad used to do all his studying at McDonalds (he was a pastor), and he
worked there when I was growing up. We spent a lot of time as a family
(because we were pretty poor) eating there and playing on the playgrounds.

For most of my childhood, the first time I saw my dad was when he got home, at
around 11am, after working a full shift at McDonalds. The smell of McDonalds
has come to be firmly associated with home for me, and when I am feeling
stressed, its where I go to eat. :)

------
lkrubner
It's not just poor neighborhoods. I live on the Upper West Side of Manhattan.
This is a mostly affluent area, but there are some homeless. There is a
McDonalds at 95th street, on Broadway. I believe it is 24 hours, or at least
it is open very late. Any time I walk home late at night, I notice that dozens
of people are clustered around that place. It offers safety and warmth and a
place people can talk to each other.

------
coliveira
Of course, this doesn't mean it is a good thing. The most probable reason is
that poor neighborhoods are so much in need of public services that even a
McDonalds will alleviate their problems. In a concrete sense, private
companies have largely taken over public spaces and many have no other
alternatives.

------
Taylor_OD
I grew up in Vermont and there was a McDonalds on both sides of town. I've
probably eaten at McDonalds that any other restaurant in my life. It's
certainly a gathering place in my hometown. It's difficult to go and not run
into someone you know.

------
vollmond
I live in a small-ish, suburb/rural large town in central PA. I have gone to
McDonald's a couple of times in the late morning, and every time it's
completely full of people over 75 socializing (including half the staff).

------
koralatov
(What follows is my own opinion, based on my own experience. It's not an
intended as an attack on any one group, and shouldn't be construed as such.
I'm making no value judgements, simply reporting what I saw and learned.)

I spent two years working freelance for a community centre in the UK. I was
working for the Centre's voluntary management committee, who had use of the
building through an convoluted arms-length agreement with the local Council
who actually owned the building and paid for its upkeep. The Council used some
of the Centre's space for offices and the like.

My objective was to expand the Association's programme of learning, creative,
and health activities and increase the community's use of the Centre.

The two years I did the work were educational. I learned a lot in the time,
not all of it good.

Several things really stuck with me.

There are some people who are genuinely passionate and willing to give over
large amounts of time working, for free, to build something they believe in
for the benefit of others. Working with these people was inspiring.

There are also at least the same number of people who are interested mostly in
furthering their own agenda, their own pet projects, and will often act in a
spiteful and overprotective fashion with that aim. Often, they'll actively
work against something that has no effect whatsoever on their pet project,
simply because it doesn't benefit their own pet project. Negotiating with
these people, and working around the blocks they erect, was a huge challenge
and not particularly enjoyable.

The local Council's policies and institutional biases actively work against a
community centre in many respects. There's so much red-tape that quite a lot
of activities which would be popular can't run -- the burden imposed by the
bureaucracy smothers it, and grinds down the people working underneath it. One
example is a drop-in youth group: these ran for nearly 30 years in the Centre
to huge success, but were infeasible now due to Council regulations and
requirements; the Association would have had to employ multiple youth-workers
(at £20+ an hour) where previously carefully vetted volunteers ran these
groups.

When working in a modern community centre with volunteers and professional
community workers, 'community' usually means one of four things: the middle-
class, ethnic minorities,* children, and people with special needs,* and with
a heavy leaning towards females in all four of these group. (This feels like
an appropriate time to remind reader that I'm not making any value judgements
or attacks.)

There is some effort made to reach the very, very poor (usually in the form of
at-risk teens), but almost none made to engage with lower-income/working-class
people. Males are similarly not a priority. Questioning this is extremely
difficult, and too easily dismissed as sexism/racism/inverse snobbery.

After my freelance work at the Centre finished, I spent nine months working in
a supermarket in a poor part of town. It was pretty eye-opening. In that time,
I got to know people from all walks of life, of all ages, and various
nationalities.

Each day as I was working, I spent time interacting with, and supporting, a
genuine, organic community. I experienced more genuine community there than I
ever did at the community centre -- and I was a _part_ of that community. I
saw the same customers every day, and often speaking to me and the other staff
would be their only social contact that day. I never experienced that at the
community centre: there, I almost exclusively interacted with people who had a
strong, well-developed base and social structure around them.

Council bureaucracy and the unquestioned biases existing within community work
failed these people. Imposing a bureaucracy over a community impairs that
community, unintentionally marginalises certain people, and causes community
to develop unnaturally if it develops at all. When that happens, though, those
who get left behind will do what humans naturally do, and develop a community
of their own.

I'm saddened that for some people this community has to be their local
supermarket, but I'm incredibly grateful for the people who work there who
take on this extra community work naturally and without any expectation of
extra reward or recognition.

* The correct term for these groups changes frequently. I'm using the ones which will be most widely understood and intend no offence.

------
bluedino
Aren't Japanese McDonald's a popular hangout for teenagers?

~~~
bitwize
When I was in Osaka, the McDonald's had a blockbusting line going into it.

The food was, near as I can tell, identical to the American locations -- but
the place was spacious, clean, and staffed mostly by the sort of mousy-voiced
girls Japan seems to produce in legion strength. And you get a Handi-Wipe to
clean up with after your meal.

~~~
astrange
It's a popular place to go just to get coffee. (Their coffee is pretty okay in
the US too.)

I feel like I remember totally offending a French guy by suggesting we do this
once.

------
ArtDev
After getting mild food poisoning from a McDonalds, I would not return. Bad
experience aside, the food is gross, unhealthy and not as cheap as a local
restaurant that serves real food.

However, foreign McDonalds are very very different. I would visit one of those
again, sure. The quality is a world away different.

~~~
Kalium
I don't know about your city, but where I am I would struggle to find "a local
restaurant that serves real food" for even 50% more than McD's. Probably 100%,
if I'm going to limit it to within a block or two of where a McD's is. In a
lot of places, chain restaurants are the cheapest and most reliable way to get
something edible.

------
FunctionalMan
People like to bash McDonalds, I love it.

I'm a very health-conscious person. I'm 5'10", 155 pounds, 53 years old, and
have a nicely defined body (you can see my abs!)

It's easy to count calories in McDonald. An Egg McMuffin is 310 calories. A
regular hamburger is 240, a Big Mac is 563.

I can have an Egg McMuffin and black coffee for breakfast (310 calories), two
regular hamburgers for lunch (480) calories, and a Big Mac for Dinner (563)
and be at 1353 calories, which leaves me with 650 calories for healthy snacks
(fruit, vegetables, yogurt) and be at 2,000 calories/day.

It can be an excellent way for people on a budget to get some meat several
times a weak. (Buy the hamburgers, w/o buns, and eat them with rice and
broccoli!)

~~~
ciaranm
You're being downvoted because it's cool to hate on McDonald's, but I agree
with you.

From my experience in the UK, their menu is increasingly easy to find
nutritional information for (the print it in big font on -all- of their
packaging), and they offer alternatives for fries/sodas if you like. Much of
the McDonald's menu is far healthier than 'real' restaurant equivalents, which
use much more oil/salt because the international community isn't scrutinising
every menu item.

~~~
ablation
I think they're being downvoted because they're a new account with no
submissions and no other comments bar this one, which looks a little... ah...
suspicious?

~~~
FunctionalMan
I've had a bunch of comments, but I think new users are shadowbanned by
default.

~~~
kw71
I saw your "dead" comment, thought it was valuable. Your previous comments
didn't appear to be antisocial so I vouched it.

Your karma went up since then so apparently some people agree.

You're still flagged for whatever reason, so whatever you write will still be
invisible until someone using showdead comes along and decides it shouldn't be
hidden.

------
RodericDay
Reminds me of this 2014 article about a "standoff" between McDonald's
Employees and elderly Chinese people using it as a community space

[http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/McDonalds-Elderly-
Senio...](http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/McDonalds-Elderly-Senior-
Citizens-Wont-Leave-Standoff-Flushing-Queens-240348291.html)

Also, chess players being evicted from a Vancouver mall after 50 years of
congregation

[http://www.timescolonist.com/chess-players-offered-new-
play-...](http://www.timescolonist.com/chess-players-offered-new-play-place-
in-vancouver-area-mall-stalement-1.2238914)

I have an ideological axe to grind here, but I can't help but think of this as
the end-game of libertarian "the government should enforce property rights
only". Of course, currently existing social services are more like a band-aid
on top of inequality than a real cure, so you end up with things like,

> In almost every franchise, there are tables with people like Betty escaping
> from the streets for a short bit. They prefer McDonald’s to shelters and to
> non-profits, because McDonald’s are safer, provide more freedom, and most
> importantly, the chance to be social, restoring a small amount of normalcy.

but it's really not hard to imagine something superior to both McDonald's and
shelters, just real community space.

~~~
boona
> the end-game of libertarian "the government should enforce property rights
> only"

The alternative is government, but this is clearly a case where they've
failed. Federal, state, and local governments haven't provided any comparable
services, only the private sector did, and with no government funding.

I think the liberal (or north-american libertarian) way, would include local
community areas run by individuals within said community similar to a co-op.
Remember that liberalism doesn't tell you HOW you have get together, only that
politicians can't create a one size fits all solution and force everyone to
pay for it.

~~~
ticviking
The bigger issues with co-ops right now in the USA are the regulatory barriers
in the way of forming one without everyone involved becoming liable for
anything bad that happens.

------
andrewclunn
I can't tell if this is sponsored content or not...

~~~
appleflaxen
I'm not sure why you are being downvoted; I think it's a great question.

~~~
theoh
No sponsored content would mention the likelihood of readers sneering at the
sponsor in the headline.

The Guardian is a reputable paper, although, barring the views of a few
commentators like Aditya Chakrabortty, it tends to have a complacent middle-
class outlook on things.

------
CiPHPerCoder
I personally avoid Chic-Fil-A because of their anti-LGBT and pro-religion
values, but I'm glad to hear they're pleasant for children.

~~~
nilkn
It's really unfortunate, because Chic-Fil-A is arguably the best fast food
option in the US when it comes to user experience (depending of course on your
exact definition of fast food and whether or not you include non-franchised
local businesses that nevertheless operate similar to fast food places).

I'm routinely impressed with the level of customer service at Chic-Fil-A. It's
frankly better than what I've gotten at many formal restaurants. On several
occasions my SO and I have been given generous amounts of free food as well,
and we're only semi-regulars (maybe twice a month).

One instance stands out. We ordered a frosted coffee to try it. Out of nowhere
one of the employees made us a second one for free, but he made it differently
from the first one with different ingredients. He gave it to us so we'd each
have one and so we could decide which method of making it we thought was
better. Stuff like this has happened _multiple_ times at Chic-Fil-A for us.

~~~
mhurron
I find Wendy's to be the best option. Chili instead of fries is nice in the
winter. If you want the fast food is going to instantly give you a heart
attack experience (admit it, sometimes you just want some horrible for you
food), there is always Hardees, they get some good specialty burgers from time
to time.

I had only been to a Chic-Fil-A a few times before refusing to go there after
their stance, and I really do not see what is so special so I'm not feeling
like I'm losing out on anything.

I'm laughing, well more smirking really, about the cleanliness of McDonalds in
the thread. I stopped eating there after I got sick after getting a drink at
two different ones. This was after their McCafe upgrades so it's not like it
was a 50 year old restaurant.

~~~
thedaemon
As a side note Wendy's doesn't use frozen pre-made beef patties, instead they
get fresh ground beef shipped in and they form the patties. That's another
reason I like Wendy's compared to other options.

------
grecy
> _I am pretty sure the cheeseburger, apple slices, and chocolate milk are not
> much worse, and probably better, than the typical fare on a slapped together
> kids meal._

Wow. It saddens me to see that statement. I thought it was commonly knowledge
that McDonalds isn't actually "food" in the nutrition and health sense of the
word any more than cotton candy and pure salt are.

~~~
alex_sf
That's awfully ignorant. Hating on McDonalds and the like is the trendy thing
to do now, but to say that there is no nutritional or health value in their
food is ridiculous.

I just looked up the nutrition facts for a kid's happy meal with a
cheeseburger, apples slices and chocolate milk. In total, you've got:

    
    
      450 calories
      12g total fat
      6g saturated fat (not that it matters)
      61g Carbs
      32g Sugars (22 of which come from the chocolate milk)
      24g Protein
    

Thats about 60% carbs, 24% protein, and 12% fat. Lacking a special diet,
that's about ideal (textbook anyway) macros.

Wanna talk 'health' and specific micros?

You've got 820mg of sodium. High, sure, but so is all American food. 20% of
your daily Vit A, 160% of your daily Vit C, 50% of your daily Calcium, 25% of
your daily Iron.

You're getting a reasonable amount of calories, with a reasonable
macronutrient ratio, and a fair spattering of micronutrients for, what, $5?

Plus a toy, and a playground. Two things that plenty of people don't have
trivially available to them.

But it's not organic, or free trade, or antibiotic free, or gluten free, or
made exclusively by third-world war orphans, so it must be crap. I get it.

~~~
pjlegato
High sodium intake is not bad for you (unless you have a few very specific and
unusual health conditions.) Like most late 20th century nutritional guidance,
turns out that idea was totally wrong.

[http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/its-time-to-end-
th...](http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/its-time-to-end-the-war-on-
salt/)

[https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=sodium+no+longer+bad+f...](https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=sodium+no+longer+bad+for+you)

~~~
alex_sf
I'm on board, but when talking about stuff like this it's best to use the
textbook answers: less wiggle room.

------
iammyIP
The pictures look pretty sad and the mc donalds house is filled with a cloud
of sugary sweetness. Kids may like it but if one is older and still likes it,
i would assume that this person either got addicted to this in some form or
simply has the stomach and tastebuds similar to a dog (which is nothing to be
ashamed of).

~~~
gruez
Does that mean dog treats are super sweet and salty?

~~~
iammyIP
No, more like dogs don't care much about taste, as long as the food is
somewhat edible and contains minimal nutritional value (some dogs eat shit or
rotten carcass for example). That's why my guess is that their taste buds and
stomachs are different.

