
We don't eat swans - drjohnson
http://modernfarmer.com/2014/05/come/
======
waterfowl
Swans are kind of assholes in my experience and the "mute swan"(the one most
people think of) has become a massive pest among the fisheries/parks/etc
crowd.

I'm generally a pretty adventurous cook/eater and did a goose for christmas
last year(geese are a hella pest but somehow the dead one I bought was $70 or
something) and probably wouldn't do a swan if it's similar. Geese are almost
"beefy"

~~~
arrrg
Are geese adventurous? Where I’m from (north-eastern Bavaria) roasted goose
breast with potato dumplings are a a common Sunday dinner meal (duck breast is
less common, at least in restaurants, but my grandparents and parents often
made it). Pork is obviously the standard thing to roast and consequently more
common overall, but I would argue that at least where I’m from this roasted
geese breast is a bigger deal than chicken based meals. Especially if it’s a
Sunday dinner.

Goose is also popular for Christmas, turkey not really. Actually, goose is
probably the thing to make for Christmas where I’m from.

Goose is obviously not chicken or turkey, but I really love it with very fatty
gravy, a crispy, salty crust, and quite dry meat. I love fried chicken, too, I
think everyone does, plus turkey, but that’s not what I’m looking for when
eating roasted goose breast.

~~~
freshyill
Oddly enough, goose isn't particularly common as a food in the U.S., even at
Christmas. And this is in spite of the fact that we've had goose drilled into
our collective consciousness as a traditional Christmas main course (and
they're a _very_ common nuisance animal).

We eat tons of turkey in the U.S., but usually sliced. Most people only roast
a whole turkey at Thanksgiving, but it's not uncommon to make it at Christmas.
In the U.S., if you're cooking a bird, it's probably a chicken. Duck is more
of a restaurant thing, particularly at slightly nicer Chinese restaurants.

This story has got me really thinking. I made a fig pudding (adapted from a
120-year-old British recipe) at Christmas two years ago. It was OK. I think I
overdid it with the amaretto. Maybe my next Christmas cooking adventure will
be goose.

~~~
mikepurvis
We do a four-pound roast chicken almost every week—it's a big yummy meal with
lots of leftovers to become sandwiches, pasta, casserole, etc, plus making
stock for soup or rice later in the week.

Delicious and really economicaly.

~~~
omegaham
I thought this was weird until I went to the grocery store and found out that
it was a dollar a pound. Yes please.

~~~
Mikeb85
WTF...

The only things that are a dollar a pound here are onions and potatoes.

------
darklajid
That article is .. devoid of new information. It claims that we don't eat
swans (maybe? probably? I certainly never did.) but fails to provide even a
hint of an answer. Unless I miss a hidden link for a page 2 or 3 that is a
very long "So we don't eat a big bird, think about it", which is .. thought
provoking if you're feeling nice, lacking content if you're not.

Jumping between vastly different regions doesn't help either ("Swans are the
property of the crown in the UK, but a pest in Michigan." What??).

~~~
gweinberg
I felt the same way. It asks "why don't we eat swans any more?" but as far as
I can tell in the US we never did, and in fact the closest thing to an answer
is just that we never got in the habit. I get the impression the excess swan
problem in Michigan is a recent thing, probably a result of a decline of some
swaniferous predator.

~~~
taejo
swaniferous (swan-bearing) =/= swanivorous (swan-eating).

------
johnvschmitt
Since the article was short on answers, here's one possible answer as to "why
we don't eat swans":

Their numbers are too small to get into volume "manufacturing" (CAFO's).

15,000 swans. That's cute.

We harvest 10,000 kiloTonnes of cattle per year in the USA alone. That means,
our CAFO'S produce about 2 million pounds of beef for every 1 swan we could
harvest.

Our food system loves repeatable processes & volume efficiencies that wild
game can't provide.

Note: I may be nearly vegetarian, & eat only local organic meat rarely. But,
the facts of CAFO's dominate the market.

~~~
jqm
If they were really that good they would raise them like turkeys.

My guess is that royalty ate them initially largely because they looked regal.
The fact that they redressed them with the feathers before serving lends
further credence to this idea.

Geese are pretty awful to eat.. particularly wild geese from what my brother
in law says. Swans are probably even worse.

~~~
dllthomas
We'll agree to disagree about geese, I guess.

~~~
jqm
I probably didn't cook it right. But my experience with goose was not very
good.

~~~
dllthomas
Certainly possible, or maybe our tastes just differ.

------
sbirchall
You know the best eggs in the world? Seagull Eggs. The harvesting of them from
the wild is highly protected and I've only ever met a few old boys who used to
poach them but I've read a few places (wild cookery and survival books) that
the finest omelette you can make is one made from shite-hawk eggs. Guess
that's an easier taboo to explain, though. I've had swan and goose and find
them both perfectly acceptable meat. The best way I've found so far is to salt
cure the breast like pastrami - as the meat is so dark it's very much like a
salt cured beef. Very tasty.

------
ratsbane
Reminds me of Porterhouse Blue, the 1970s satirical novel about life in the
fictitious Porterhouse college at Cambridge, where swans were served at
massive feasts and "porterhouse blue" became another name for a stroke caused
by excessive consumption:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porterhouse_Blue](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porterhouse_Blue)

~~~
TimFogarty
On a related note, fellows of St John's Cambridge are the only people outside
the Royal Family allowed to eat unmarked mute swans in the UK:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_John's_College,_Cambridge#Ea...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_John's_College,_Cambridge#Eating_Swan)

------
vj44
My grandfather told my that during the WW2 occupation, fisherman occasionally
used to catch & eat swans. Even during the war, the meat was not socially
accepted for human consumption (ie. in western culture would consider it on
par with "dog meat"), thus not very popular.

~~~
paganel
> Even during the war, the meat was not socially accepted for human
> consumption

For what it's worth, it was a huge scandal in the early 1990s in my country
when it was rumored that members of our local gipsy community had eaten swans
after they had just arrived in Vienna. It stuck along as a stereotype for at
least a decade, if not more. As for the reference, the best I could find was
this:
[http://books.google.ro/books?id=gHKm95EweOwC&pg=PT272&lpg=PT...](http://books.google.ro/books?id=gHKm95EweOwC&pg=PT272&lpg=PT272&dq=eating+swans+vienna+gypsies&source=bl&ots=F1IMlgVdYa&sig=HITnDa4Ra1SdJEQBbxHDPqD7Olw&hl=ro&sa=X&ei=Ld9tU6rjL4mN7Qb1lYHIDQ&ved=0CEcQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=eating%20swans%20vienna%20gypsies&f=false)
, but there was also a Sun story from 2008 about "Eastern" immigrants having
eaten swans.

------
Rizz
There are a few swan farms in The Netherlands, where swans are grown for
consumption. They are considered a delicacy in several European countries, but
they don't taste as good as duck or geese in my opinion. Some years ago there
were a few incidences of Eastern European migrants taking wild swans for food,
including some from protected species.

------
nogodo
We shot a swan for the sole purpose of eating it. It was lovely and served a
large number of people (apx 8) with plenty of leftovers.

This was in a country where they are protected but are a pest and are in large
numbers locally. Protected largely for historical reasons (the Queen).

In future I would (will) use the pressure cooker however.

------
Zigurd
For one thing, you'll need a larger than normal oven. The largest turkeys at
the neighborhood turkey farm are about 30 lbs., the size of a small swan, and,
while you might be able to physically stuff a bird that big into a newer oven
that has maximal cooking volume, it won't cook very well. Turkeys are lean,
but if you tried to roast a swan, your roasting pan might overflow with fat
and if that catches fire it will burn like a gallon of liquefied paraffin.
That's a pretty good way to burn down the house.

~~~
Pxtl
I didn't realize they were that large up-close. The obvious implication of
that fact:

Swanturducken.

------
callumprentice
Our local yakitori joint serves swan and lion -
[http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2013/05/17/burlingame-
resta...](http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2013/05/17/burlingame-restaurant-
offers-lion-meat-amid-controversy/)

------
dang
We changed the title (from "Why don't we eat swans?") in an attempt to ward
off bikeshed arguments about it.

------
vernie
I'd eat swan. Somebody cook it up for me.

~~~
31reasons
I would eat swan just to prove a point that its not fair for chickens just
because of the looks.

------
ianbicking
"In Michigan, however, which has the highest population of mute swans in North
America, the creatures are considered pests. According to the Michigan
Department of Natural Resources, the statewide breeding population increased
from about 5,700 to more than 15,000 in just ten years. The birds attack
people in the water and on shore, particularly children that wander too close
to their nests."

Sometimes when I get excited that an animal population gets to the point of
potentially excess, I have to remind myself that it might be that we've
adapted our lives to the absence of the animal and can't tolerate its presence
even in modest amounts. Yes, swans are aggressive, but just because they are
annoying doesn't mean they are overpopulated. Or concerns that some wild cats
might take dogs. That sucks for the dog owner if it happens, but is it really
okay to have the expectation that your animal can be in nature without any
natural repercussions?

That said, once swans become common we shouldn't be afraid to push back
against their aggressiveness. Nature does have away to balance behavior, and
if humans think they just have to put up with asshole swans or else kill the
swans I think we're missing out on some obvious behavior correction
opportunities.

~~~
SoftwareMaven
If that aggressiveness comes at the cost of other species, especially after
humans either artificially introduced them or eliminated their natural
predators, it is our _responsibility_ to protect those other species.
Conservation doesn't mean every individual of every species gets to live.

------
plugger
People do hunt and eat swans. I'm from North Carolina and have a lifetime
sportsman license there. Each year I can apply for two swan tags, I believe
the cost is something like $5-$15 for the tags.

What this article doesn't explain is that swan meat isn't actually very good.
Goose is better, but duck is the best (in my opinion). Goose is more gamey,
tough, and has less meat than a duck. Swan is even more gamey than goose.

I suspect if the author spent more time investigating the "old boys network"
he would have realized that hunting and consumption of swan does exist in the
US today. Even a simple "hunting swan in america" google search turns up a
useful information. Have a look at the aptly named swanhunting.com if you want
more info.

------
kefka
Because they do not sell it at the market.

Ive found all sorts of meat (22 types from my specialty butcher), yet swan
isn't there. Perhaps it's "too beautiful" to eat, or perhaps it has a more
visceral "horse meat" kind of feeling to it.

I don't know. And the article is lacking in detail. So, the answer is "it's
not sold".

~~~
jqm
But this leads to the question of "why don't they sell it at the market"?

And the answer to that might be because people wouldn't buy it. Or if they
did, only once because it tastes like an old glove that was left in the parrot
cage.

~~~
dllthomas
The one quote in the article about the taste was positive...

~~~
jqm
Somebody else said similar but I'm not convinced.

I went back and looked and the guy was a professional chef. And probably some
sort of esoteric gourmet of the kind that might drink civet poop coffee.

I have to believe if swans were really good people would have started eating
them in large numbers a long time ago and they would commercially raise them.

~~~
dllthomas
Batali may have weird tastes, maybe (though he's a pretty mainstream food
personality not particularly known for crazy stuff), but it remains the case
that we have one piece of testimony that it's tasty and none that it isn't.
The fact that we don't eat them _is_ arguably some evidence that they aren't
but there are other potential explanations for that, so drawing that
conclusion seems shakey.

~~~
jqm
I don't buy the Queen of England explanation. Because there are many other
countries besides England. So what other explanation could there be? Given
this, along with my poor goose experience, leads to my conclusion that they
likely don't have a flavor that appeals to many people.

Maybe I'm wrong. I suppose with current regulations and the fact swans don't
live in my area I don't have a way to test my hypothesis.

------
michaelfeathers
Maybe the answer is rebranding. Dolphin fish are named 'Mahi-Mahi' on menus to
disambiguate them from the mammals.

------
dsirijus
I've always wondered - when synthetic meat becomes economically viable, and
animal rights come even closer to human, will we end up in much greater need
systematically controlling most animal populations? What are we going to do
with all those caracases? Feed the poor?

------
jliptzin
"others preferred to stuff the bird with a series of increasingly smaller
birds"

Dynamic eating!

~~~
jqm
I found that comment actually amusing.

I would upvote it to counter whoever downvoted it but not enough karma.

~~~
jqm
I guess some people have not been exposed to dynamic programming?

~~~
jliptzin
I suppose not

------
dvfurlong
Because the Queen owns them all except St John's Oxford swans who have
permission

~~~
waterfowl
SJC is at Cambridge

~~~
001sky
a number of the college names overlap both place, including st johns , but
only cambridge-resident fellows can have "unmarked" swan.

([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_John%27s_College,_Oxford](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_John%27s_College,_Oxford))

------
geoffc
Same problem with the seals in New England. They are cute and protected and
exploding in population with negative effects on the fish stock. Canada
restarted seal hunting to protect the cod fishery and it's working for them.

~~~
krisgee
>and it's working for them.

Yeah, against massive international outcry from people who don't live here and
don't understand that fisheries is literally the only job left.

------
withdavidli
Answer right in the article. "too cute to eat".

~~~
gajomi
The author insists on this, and I guess it is true that this notion is
promoted by popular culture. But to me it just seems insane. Have these people
ever seen a swan? I mean, whenever I get close to one it is readily apparent
that I am dealing with some outgrown aggressive river-beast. The only thing
keeping it from biting my head off would seem to be a couple factors of two
missing in the volume, which a few thousand years of evolution might have an
easy solution to. I see very little cute in swans...

~~~
the_af
Agreed. A swan is no cuter than a duck, which is a common dish in many menus.
Also, we eat a lot of animals which could be considered "cute". A little lamb,
for example, or a piglet. So cuteness can't be the answer.

~~~
withdavidli
Ducks are still failry rare to be on menus depending on the culture of a
restaurant. Some of my friends are still surprised I eat them.

I originally omitted in my comment about thoughts of dogs, cats, and bunnies
being taboo as meals in the US. It probably has a lot to do with not only
perceived cuteness, but then we have a tendency to make cute things pets, and
then they become "part of the family".

You don't usually see piglets or lambs as options in the pet store.

~~~
the_af
Is duck rare in the US? While not as common as chicken, it's served as food in
a lot of Western countries. I've tried it and found it delicious.

Dogs and cats: probably eaten in some cultures, though the thought is shocking
to me. But bunny? Not only eaten, but also skinned for their pelts: this is
_extremely_ common, to the point I know people who breed them for this exact
purpose (and to sell them as pets as well). Rabbit is a common dish in Spanish
restaurants, for example.

I'll argue the highly subjective notion that rabbits are cuter than swans, yet
we eat and skin rabbits. And they _are_ available in pet stores, unlike...
swan!

~~~
withdavidli
Late reply.

I don't think ducks are rare in the US. They're common in asian and french
restaurants, but not much in any other I've been too.

Rabbit is almost never seen on a menu, there are few asian restaurants that
I've seen it, usually in the form of stew.

Horse meat is also rare in restaurants, only a few in the entire US and Canada
serves it.

Cuteness is always subjective =)

------
merrua
In many of the celtic nations it's for cultural reasons. They are an animal
people turn into in myth and "sacred" through custom. No reason however why
they are not eaten in countries where they are not native.

------
joeevans1000
the author shows their bias and agenda with the ridiculous claim:

"The birds attack people in the water and on shore, particularly children that
wander too close to their nests."

absurd.

------
ArkyBeagle
In the past, the upper class in England would eat swans.

------
suyash
What kind of discussions are propping up to #3 on HN front page. There is more
general topic discussion than Hacker related discussion (btw I meant hacker in
the good sense)

~~~
dang
Please reread the Hacker News guidelines. Any articles that gratify
intellectual curiosity are on topic. This article may be a bit fluffy, but it
fits the bill.

~~~
hmsimha
> This article may be a bit fluffy, but it fits the bill.

I don't even know whether this was intentional, which makes it the best kind
of wordplay

------
jqm
The article doesn't provide the most likely answer...

Because they don't taste very good.

~~~
the_af
The article quotes an opinion saying they are delicious:

“We once ate a swan at Christmas nine or ten years ago,” [chef Mario Batali]
told Esquire. “It was delicious — deep red, lean, lightly gamey, moist, and
succulent… but I’ve never seen swan on a market list.”

~~~
jqm
I missed that.

But "lightly gamey" doesn't sound very good to me.

I cooked a goose once out of curiosity. As another poster mentions it was very
expensive. And, it wasn't very good. An $8 chicken beat it hands down.

If swans were really tasty they would have probably been commercially farmed a
long time ago. So I have to believe they really don't.... taste very good.
Queen of England aside, there are plenty of other countries that would have
raised them commercially.

~~~
the_af
Game is a taste not all people like, but this is not about individual
preference. A lot of people eat game. Wild boar, wild duck, deer, and many
other "gamey" meats are enjoyed in many countries. Why not swan? Especially
if, as the quoted chef claims, it's only lightly gamey.

~~~
jqm
Not to beat a useless discussion to death but I really think you answered your
own question...

Why not swan when they eat boar, ducks and deer?

I see one and only one very obvious answer. And I'm sticking with it...
downvotes be damned!

------
phormat
Maybe swan is the decidedly-not-pork mystery meat that chinese food serves me
in their 'special' fried rice? Anyone know what im talking about.. Smokey
smell, looks like a fowl in its cooked form.

------
jasonlaramburu
What about black swans lol?

------
saregama
Humans eating habits should evolve ! Go Vegetarian !

~~~
saregama
Ok. Ok.. Suit yourself :)

------
mmcclure
Kinda off topic, but did anyone catch the comments from "Terrence Andrew
Davis"? Google this guy...can't figure out if he's a real, mentally unstable
human or a random text generator, but supposedly he wrote an os:
[http://templeos.org](http://templeos.org).

Uh...and Swans and stuff...

~~~
danford
[https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=TempleOSV2](https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=TempleOSV2)

Probably him. Or some guy with a lot of time on his hands pretending to be
him.

