
Daniel Thompson, Whose Bagel Machine Altered the American Diet, Dies at 94 - davidf18
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/22/business/daniel-thompson-whose-bagel-machine-altered-the-american-diet-dies-at-94.html?_r=0
======
tfinniga
There's a schizoid perspective in this article that arises a lot with these
kinds of things.

Bagels used to be better, and there were tons of people making them! But there
weren't enough bagels, because not enough people were making them!

Hand-rolled bagels taste so much better! But Americans like the texture and
flavor of the machine-rolled ones better!

You used to only be able to get authentic hand-rolled bagels in cities with a
large Jewish population, which was exclusive and cool! But now, you can only
get authentic hand-rolled bagels in cities with a large Jewish population,
which is awful!

Bagel hipsters.

~~~
smacktoward
_> You used to only be able to get authentic hand-rolled bagels in cities with
a large Jewish population, which was exclusive and cool! But now, you can only
get authentic hand-rolled bagels in cities with a large Jewish population,
which is awful!_

It's more complicated than that.

First, the article notes that the old-style bagels are hard to find now, even
in cities like New York with large Jewish populations where they used to be
everywhere. Even though they still had people there who preferred them, they
were driven out of those markets by a combination of factors arising from the
rise of the machine-made bagel. Since "bagel-maker" isn't a career that an
artisan can make a living at anymore, for instance, the knowledge of how those
old bagels got made doesn't get passed down from one generation to another
like it used to. Eventually that knowledge will be lost, and the machine-made
bagel will be the _only_ bagel. So it's not a straight case of everyone's
better off; if you're one of the people who lives in those markets and prefers
the traditional bagel, you're losing it. It's possible to argue that loss is
outweighed by the benefit everyone else in the world gets from having access
to any kind of bagel at all, but it's definitely a loss.

Second, it's tied up with longstanding anxieties in the American Jewish
community (anxieties that will be familiar to any immigrant minority) about
assimilation. On one hand, if you are Jewish or love Jewish culture, it's
exciting to see something as central to that culture as the bagel exploding
outside the Jewish community to the plates of the nation at large; when Jewish
food becomes American food, it helps reinforce the idea that the days when
Jews were seen as foreign or alien are over. But the flip side of that is that
you can look at the bagel that's landing on all those gentile plates and worry
that maybe the price of becoming "American" involves having to give up the
distinctiveness that makes Jewish culture Jewish. Is that too high a price for
what it buys? How much of traditional Jewish culture can you give up before
you've given up your Jewish identity altogether?

None of those anxieties are unique to Jews -- I imagine Americans of Hispanic
extraction must feel the same way every time they see a Taco Bell. It's a
question that immigrants to America (and those descended from them) of all
kinds have always had to grapple with: how do you embrace your new home
without completely losing your connection to the old one? How much
assimilation is too much?

~~~
kenko
""" First, the article notes that the old-style bagels are hard to find now,
even in cities like New York with large Jewish populations where they used to
be everywhere. Even though they still had people there who preferred them,
they were driven out of those markets by a combination of factors arising from
the rise of the machine-made bagel. Since "bagel-maker" isn't a career that an
artisan can make a living at anymore, for instance, the knowledge of how those
old bagels got made doesn't get passed down from one generation to another
like it used to. Eventually that knowledge will be lost, and the machine-made
bagel will be the only bagel. So it's not a straight case of everyone's better
off; if you're one of the people who lives in those markets and prefers the
traditional bagel, you're losing it. It's possible to argue that loss is
outweighed by the benefit everyone else in the world gets from having access
to any kind of bagel at all, but it's definitely a loss. """

Disruption in a nutshell.

------
russnewcomer
As a mere 30-something, it's always amazing to me to read about these things
that seemed ubiquitous when I was a child (store-bought bagels, folding ping-
pong tables, even things like vacuums, electric stoves, and color TV) really
are recent inventions. I had no idea that the Bagel didn't become what I think
of the Bagel until this article. I regularly talk to my nearly nineties
grandparents, and they regularly mention something that they are amazed by
that I just take for granted (air conditioning, power steering, batteries,
frozen meals, and more).

I hope I don't lose my sense of wonder for the world.

Here's to you, Mr. Thompson, a tinkerer from the age when one could
revolutionize the world twice from one's garage.

~~~
munificent
I have two young kids. It is completely inconceivable to them that anyone
might be in a situation where all of the world's information isn't immediately
available at a moment's notice one any of several nearby screens.

They will fundamentally never understand the idea that it used to be hard to
_know_ something.

~~~
jbattle
I do think there will always be this detectable weird KT-boundary starting
around the mid-late 90's where information is just hard to come by (on the
internet). Important stuff like GI Joe cartoons and news stories will of
course be available, but simple everyday facts and figures will be really hard
to uncover.

So I 100% agree with you that this is a pretty huge transition and will be
hard for them to look back over, but they will always have a chance to
experience ignorance, but only when they look for boring stuff from the last
century.

------
bluedino
It seemed like in the 90's bagel franchises took off, and then were killed
when low-carb/Atkins became popular.

I love bagels but unfortunately they are really something I only enjoy fresh.
A refrigerated bagel is just weird.

------
keithpeter
Anyone know of a traditional bagel bakery in UK? Beigel Bake perhaps (Brick
Lane)?

I always thought bagels were a bit harder so they lasted longer like German
rye loaf. I didn't know about the dough-boiling bit.

~~~
0xdeadbeefbabe
Where do I get German rye loaf in the western USA?

~~~
avn2109
This place [0] was one of the best in North America for real bread but they
are now long gone.

[0] [http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Tassajara-Bakery-to-
close...](http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Tassajara-Bakery-to-close-its-
doors-3089165.php)

Sorry. Maybe they have a spiritual heir that someone here can identify.

------
tribe
The Awl ran an interesting piece on this [1] which focused more on how
disruptive the bagel machine was to the bagel unions. I wonder if people will
ever lament the loss of taxis if Uber and its ilk take over.

[1] [http://www.theawl.com/2015/09/a-disruption-cautionary-
tale](http://www.theawl.com/2015/09/a-disruption-cautionary-tale)

~~~
davidf18
A major reason why Uber has been successful (in New York at least) has been a
deliberate political move to make taxis scarce by limiting taxi medallions
which created a shortage of taxis as well as increased fares.

The taxis in New York City have adapted to Uber by installing their own
e-hailing app called Arro and they offer an advantage over Uber because there
is no "surge pricing."

By simply removing the political limit on taxi medallions in NYC, there will
be an increase in the use of taxis because they also have the advantage over
Uber in that people can hail taxis with their hand.

~~~
MBlume
> and they offer an advantage over Uber because there is no "surge pricing."

That sounds like a disadvantage to me -- can you actually get one if lots of
people want rides?

------
morsch
I have to admit, I don't get bagels. Beyond spiritual imagery, what's the
appeal of toroidal food? The slight increase in surface area?

I get that if the appeal is in the coating more so than the pastry itself, as
in a chocolate donut, but with bread, my goal is usually to maximise the
capacity for delicious treats to fill or cover them.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Toroidal so it cooks evenly inside and doesn't gave a gooey center. Same as
donuts.

~~~
morsch
Thanks, that makes sense, though technology seems to have succeeded in making
non-toroidal bread that's cooked evenly.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
The only reason I bake bagels is that they simply taste good. Sure it's bread,
but the texture is very different (crackly crust, chewy but light interior)
and the flavor is subtly different.

As far as I know, the shape is incidental, since the ones that end up shaped
like buns taste just like the toroidal ones.

------
davidf18
The bagels in Montreal appear to be hand made and they are placed into ovens
and they are delicious.

------
marincounty
Never work in a bagel shop. I don't know if it was me, the job, or the owner,
but it was the worst job I have ever had.

I was just out of college, and didn't want to wear a tie. I thought this would
be a fun, temporary stint.

I would get to work at 4:30 a.m. I would pack bagels, and talk to the only
female in the joint. Well, I didn't know it at the time, but the owner like
this girl, along with every girl that walked into his shop--including high
school girls. Yea, the dude should have been but put down?

Even though my intentions were innocent; I was just young and liked to talk to
the fairer sex, and people my own age, Dodger(the owner) had it out for me.

He had me doing all the lousy jobs. My favorite was rotating the freezer. He
would give me this job when he was really angry with his personal life. It
entailed taking every package out if a 10 X 20 foot freezer (crammed with
product. 6" of top clearance.) and basically repacking--when I waked in at
4:30 a.m. I was so young, and naieve, I didn't know he was angry with me. And
for some reason, he kept the dead rats he killed in the freezer? I don't know
why, but he liked to kill rats. He would chase them around the shop and grab
them with his bare hands, and feet. He would then put them in plastic bags,
and keep them in the freezer. I never asked why. Kinda didn't want to know? I
do remember him wiping up the blood, and thinking, they deserve better than
Doger. Still have red dreams?

Aa to the bagel machine, I never saw one. We rolled out the bagels, and
pinched them together. Boiled them, and baked them. (I did get the recipe out
of another employee, because I thought they tasted great. Will post if anyone
wants, but need to find it.)

I put up with this owner for too long. I finally realized I need to right some
wrongs. It was the late 90's and technology was expensive--meaning he didn't
have cameras. Now I should have just quit, but I needed some revenge. Since
this is a public forum, let's just saw my revenge was a keen interest in the
front counter, and the cash register. Yes, I was finally making a good salary.
I'm not proud of it, but looking back it still feels good.

Today, my shinagigans would be impossible because of the proliferation of
cheap surveillance devices. Guys of my generation(basically the 80'-90's)
would look for gravy, especially if treated horribly. I wonder how that has
affected the economy today? Back in the day, if you had a gripe, and willing
to take some real risk; you could get revenge. (I saw other guys doing what I
did--basically being horrid employees in the end, but they all went into this
weird denial? I guess it's human nature to not admit someting like this?
("This"\--could be just cleaning the register keys. They can get so sticky?
And my ip is open sometimes, and I think my neighbor is a Reaver?)

Anyway, the last I heard, Dodger (the 45 year old jerk) was caught the second-
third time trying to give flowers to high school girls, and he sold his store
to someone. The sale was unrelated to being a creep. He would stand at their
cars, dusted in flour, didn't believe in bathing, with his bouquet of flowers.
He didn't understand why the 16 year olds didn't want to date him.

The only thing I miss was the fresh onion bagels, with 1/2" fresh lox, creme
cheese, and onions. I would sneak out two and eat them in my chit box.
Thinking, "I need to go to graduate school!", and "Why does my head hurt?". I
was a bit neurotic, and thought I had an aneurism.

(if buying bagels, buy them the dozen. You will save money, and they freeze
well. )

~~~
jrockway
You might want to head over to Reddit's /r/askreddit if you want to reply to
posts as though they were creative writing prompts.

------
wahsd
I also find it interesting how there's a seemingly erroneous association of
bagels as a Jewish food item even though the earliest depictions of bread with
holes in the center appear in Egyptian hieroglyphs as far as I know.

~~~
tjr
Is bread with holes necessarily a bagel? Wikipedia suggests likely Jewish
origins in Poland:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagel)

