
The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game - acangiano
http://programmingzen.com/2011/11/10/the-real-reason-italy-sucks-at-the-startup-game/
======
phatbyte
Unfortunately this applies to Spain, Greece and my home country Portugal.
South european countries have the same base mentality when it come to
entrepreneurship, you either get mocked/ignored/stigmatized for failing or you
get jealousy/ignored when you succeeded.

Also, we don't have the mentality of "self-made man" and "go get it", most of
our population expect everything from the government. They get a degree and
expect to get a job the next day just because.

I have serious arguments with family members and friends regarding this,
because I'm the totally opposite, I strive to succeeded and I'm happy and
inspired when I see someone else succeeding. I don't want to be in a safe job
for the rest of my life, I want to be in a limbo all the time, that will make
me push forward and fight to a have a better life. And to be honest I'm doing
a lot better than most of the people here, even if I don't have a "stable"
job.

I'm currently working as freelancer for companies outside portugal, and I've
just funded my company in the US. I expect to get away from here next year. I
just can't stand this mentality

~~~
BSousa
Hey

Portuguese here as well and I can vouch for just about everything phatbyte
said as well. Anyone that has a little bit of success, in the eyes of 95% of
the population did it either by a) corruption b) stealing c) abusing
people/employees. People just don't believe hard work is a key to success.
Heck, even when I change jobs for a better pay my own parents complain about
it, they expect me to die in the same company I started working.

On another note, where care you in Portugal? If in the north/Porto, send me an
email if you want to catch a beer. Always looking for same minded individuals
for a chat.

~~~
phatbyte
I'm currently living in Lisbon, but I got to Braga very often. Let's have a HN
meetup hehe

------
bdesimone
Very good post. I am a dual citizen of the United States and Italy, and though
I grew up in America and consider myself culturally more American than
Italian, I lived, studied and worked (as a developer) in Italy.

It's difficult to describe the situation to an outsider, but I found Italy a
beautiful place to live but a frustrating and difficult place to work.

1) Italian bureaucracy is maddening. Simple things that take five minutes in
America, like getting residency in a state or setting up a bank account can
take days if not weeks or months.

2) Taxes and rent are absurdly high compared to wages. I had a great job--and
compared to my Italian born peers it really was--that earned 2,600Euro a
month. My one bedroom apartment cost 1,400 Euro + 400 euro for utilities and
taxes (and utilities is where you get taxed into oblivion).

3) Nepotism and "serving your own." True to what the article mentions, to get
my job I had to go through 4-5 rounds of interviews. When I was chosen over
the two other Italian candidates, they were blown away. How could they chose
this foreigner over them? It didn't matter I was a better programmer, or an
Italian citizen, or that I spoke Italian. I was American and they were Italian
-- how could the employer possibly chosen me?

4) A cultural tolerance for being corrupt or sly and getting away with it. I'm
generalizing some here, but I feel this to be true for the most part.

And, to those who speak Italian (sorry could not find the clip with
subtitles), this is a wonderful scene related:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8TZNxWixN8>

~~~
_delirium
On #2, €1800/mo rent including utilities sounds pretty absurd! Is that in a
particularly desirable city center, or with some unusual arrangement (e.g.
furnished short-term rentals?). The Italians I know here in Copenhagen have
mentioned rent prices closer to €700-900 for a 1-bd back in Italy, when
complaining about how expensive Copenhagen is in comparison (€1800 would even
be high for Copenhagen, though; it's more like €1000-1300 here).

~~~
toyg
It really depends which part of the country we're talking about. Some cities
(Milan, Rome, Bologna, anywhere in Tuscany) are incredibly expensive.

------
program
I am italian, I have a full-time job in an IT private company, I own an house
and I know why you can't create a startup in Italy: money, burocracy and
taxes.

In Italy banks or companies will never invest money in your startup if you
can't cover at least all the money you need in 4/5 years. If you dare to found
a new company and you fail then your life is destroyed. You are tagged as
"cattivo pagatore" (bad payer) and you will never obtain money in form of
loans.

Italy is a very bad place if you want to make something innovative.

~~~
italophil
You blaming it on outside forces (money, burocracy and taxes) just validates
one of the points in the article.

I am German, working some years for FIAT, and did my PhD in Italy, but left
right after graduation for the US. The article perfectly summarizes the
reasons I didn't want to stay and start something in Italy.

~~~
viandante
You are right, but those outside forces are really strong. I had to fight only
to study abroad, which is seen as a waste of time and possible drawback on
your cv (because you spent time studying abroad instead of studying for
real...).

The only way not to sound like an Italian just complaining about outside
forces is to leave the country. But than that is also not useful for Italy.
So, you see the problem?

~~~
riffraff
how does B follow from A?

    
    
        The only way not to sound like an Italian just complaining about outside forces is to leave the country. 
    

there is by definition one simple way not to sound like someone complaining
about outside forces: don't complain. If you start by the assumption that it's
impossible to do so in country X you have already decided to be in the "it's
not my fault" camp.

~~~
viandante
I am not sure where are you from. I come from the area described in "Gomorra"
by Saviano. We have rampant criminality and corruption. People get actually
shouted around here.

Those are outside forces that will come and knock to your door as soon as your
activity start to be profitable. People will ask you for money or favors or
they will just make your life difficult just so they don't have to envy your
success.

So, you are right, but you are also taking a superficial look at the problem.
Of course you can start a company, but you will have to be much stronger and
determinate and be able to deal with the fact that nobody, not even your
family and friends, will support you.

~~~
riffraff
small town close to rome (with a decent share of corruption, crime and
immobilism) but how does that relate?

I was only stating that the reasoning in your previous comment is incorrect
(which, by the way, it's about italy, not your area).

I am not dumb enough to disagree on the general topic of "it's harder to start
a company in corleone than in san francisco", I'm just worried by blanket
statements from young people that the only chance to succeed is to change
country.

Consider antirez, who ran a (successful, AFAIK) company from sicily or
ciaopeople which has a decent business and is based in naples. It's harder
yes, but the first N steps should be trying and failing, and only N+1 should
be giving up to blaming outside forces.

------
tomelders
I really like that graph. I suspect the Chinese may well be right in their
assumption that "success is outside of their control", but few other countries
have the same excuses.

There could be a case to be made that countries should monitor that metric
very closely and work hard to improve their "Yes to No" ratio.

Also, having lived and worked in Italy, my number 1 reason for setting up my
company (which failed) in the UK was the insane level of bureaucracy in Italy.
It's farcical, near impossible to navigate and anyone who's prepared to deal
with that level of antiquated incompetence, corruption and inefficiency needs
their head looking at. It's a beautiful country, but it's rotten to the core.

~~~
joedogboi
Part of the Chinese belief of lack of control is the amazing amount of
influence Confucian ideals still hold. How can one control one's destiny if
they're beholden to their family, their elders and society. It's hard to be an
innovator if individuality is discouraged. I'm not implying that Chinese men
and women can't innovate, but I suspect they're disinclined to believe they
can. It would be selfish to create a startup and risk failure which could
jeopardize one's livelihood and therefore one's ability to continue the
family. Also, failure would bring shame to the family. (There's a bit of
stereotyping here, of course, and I'd love to hear from people who have spent
time in Asia and could give me a more complete picture).

~~~
temp5678
I don't think Confucianism is sufficient to explain it. They don't feel a loss
of control because they're beholden to their families. That's a little silly.

It's really mostly the other pillar of Chinese culture; Taoism. The two belief
systems over the centuries go through cycles of being influential and Taoism
in the new capitalistic China is re-emergent.

Taoism is really a lot about individualism, but it's also about going with the
flow of life. It's called "following the Tao" and is very fatalistic.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_wei>

~~~
pjin
Confucianism is historically the heart of Chinese culture. Taoism has never
been as singularly influential in China as Confucianism has, nor is its
"resurgence" sweeping away Confucianism. Assigning the idea of e.g. fatalism
to "mostly Taoism" is also inaccurate. As far as popular beliefs go,
Confucian, Taoist, and Buddhist beliefs have mixed together in the past
centuries when we're talking about the influence of these set of teachings on
the Chinese population (at least before 1949). Categorizing Value X as
belonging to System A is too simple.

~~~
cop359
(sry posting from a different account, but same person)

I think your views of Chinese culture is being colored by a skin deep look at
China's past hundred years. I think as a a whole Chinese history would
disagree with you. During times of dynastic change Taoism was _the_ prevailing
cultural trope. Because dynastic change isn't the majority of historical time
it can give the impression that Confucianism is the dominant "religion", but
these moments of turmoil are critical and their effects are long lasting.
Taoism (or at least their way of looking at things) is always in the
background.

Just as an example, look at the literati culture after the take over of the
Yuan Dynasty. Southern Song loyalists persisted for about two generations and
really revitalized Taoist-inspired world views. They were the driving engine
of Chinese culture during that time. Things like romanticizing the farmer,
living of the land, the life of recluses etc.

A very similar thing happened after the take over of the Qing dynasty. Ming
loyalists revitalized many of the same ideas.

During more tumultuous times Chinese turn to the more individualistic, less
paternalistic side of their Culture as the central authority (and everything
it represents - a father figure, the cultural vanguard etc.) erodes.

Right now, with the influx of Western ideas/culture and lifestyle the
authority of the Communist regime is eroding to an extent. People view it as
corrupt, inept and it doesn't command the respect it once had.

I think there is a cultural "swing" that is going to happen. And my argument
was that neither system is conducive to entrepreneurship

"Assigning the idea of e.g. fatalism to "mostly Taoism" is also inaccurate."
it's obviously an over simplification on my part. It's a complicated
multifaceted world view of course, but fatalism plays an important part from
what I understand. It's a little unfortunate that you didn't elaborate because
I'd love to know your view of Taoism. I'm by no means an expert (haven't read
any Taoist literature for instance), but from what I know it isn't the belief
system of the capitalist-entrepreneur.

___ Example of Taoist influence: I've mostly approached Chinese culture from
the artistic perspective, but look at for example Bada Shanren (Ming
Loyalist), vs. like

[http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=A0oGdVGUT7...](http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=A0oGdVGUT7xOFCoAN25XNyoA?p=Bada%20Shanren&fr2=piv-
web) <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shen_Zhou>

Even without knowing a lot of abotu Chinese art, you can see that Shen Zhou
has a more traditional Confusian take on art (he's imitating the masters.
That's why his work looks more "generic") while Bada is a lot more
experimental and lets his individuality come through his art (Shen does too,
but in more subtler ways that aren't very easy to explain).

~~~
tomelders
I was thinking more along the lines of Communism, but your theory works too.

------
vladd
National Geographic made an editorial describing how teen brains are more
prone to risky behavior:

>> Peaking during adolescence is risk-taking. We court risk more avidly as
teens than at any other time. This shows reliably in the lab, where teens take
more chances in controlled experiments involving everything from card games to
simulated driving. And it shows in real life, where the period from roughly 15
to 25 brings peaks in all sorts of risky ventures and ugly outcomes.

If teens think as well as adults do and recognize risk just as well, why do
they take more chances? Here, as elsewhere, the problem lies less in what
teens lack compared with adults than in what they have more of. Teens take
more risks not because they don't understand the dangers but because they
weigh risk versus reward differently: In situations where risk can get them
something they want, they value the reward more heavily than adults do.

The period's uniqueness rises from genes and developmental processes that have
been selected for over thousands of generations because they play an amplified
role during this key transitional period: producing a creature optimally
primed to leave a safe home and move into unfamiliar territory. The move
outward from home is the most difficult thing that humans do, as well as the
most critical—not just for individuals but for a species that has shown an
unmatched ability to master challenging new environments. In scientific terms,
teenagers can be a pain in the ass. But they are quite possibly the most
fully, crucially adaptive human beings around. Without them, humanity might
not have so readily spread across the globe. <<

Full version at [http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/10/teenage-
brains/dob...](http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/10/teenage-brains/dobbs-
text)

~~~
StuffMaster
Also, teenagers have an intense drive to move out and be on their own, and
often to rebel. When thinking about how our ancestors created new villages and
settled new territory, I believe that this probably played a role.

------
dlikhten
I like the arguments. I had to fight my family as well when making any
ventures. Will they be fruitful? who knows. However my family was always
saying "why risk failure, when you can have a nice 9-5 job that always pays
well and is fairly stable?" or "why risk working your ass off for a year and
"show nothing for it"" where to me working my ass off for a year is a year of
education i'd have never received otherwise.

And my family is fairly progressive.

We are immigrants from Ukraine (circa '92)

~~~
fennecfoxen
Why not? No kids yet. Limited downside. At most you've wasted some time and a
small amount of cash, and you can always fall back on the steady job.

------
iqster
I just saw the image of Italy on the backside of an Arduino on desk, and was
thinking about how innovative the Italians are. Then I saw this on HN :)

~~~
waterside81
Italians have provided some of the world's greatest innovations in civil and
mechanical engineering and continue to do so. Perhaps their creative energy
has not yet been channeled towards the space of web apps and mobile apps,
which the HN audience is biased towards.

------
oscardelben
I agree about the mentality problem, though I think it's mostly due ignorance
in general and values that are often toward the wrong thing.

Regarding taxes, it's pretty ridiculous, I would never encourage people to
open a business here if they can avoid it.

I'm moving to the US next year and I can't wait to stop paying the ridiculous
amount of money (in proportion of what I earn) that I pay now as a consultant.

I think I can add another reason why doing startups is hard in Italy: finding
a cofounder or team members. I've worked in one of the biggest startup
incubator in Italy (h-farm), and I can say from experience that it's super
hard to find talented people, and that makes a difference at the end of the
day.

~~~
Symmetry
Regarding taxes, I was surprised to read today that corportations in Italy, if
they actually complied with every law, would be paying a 68.6% tax rate. Still
not as bad as a few countries in Africa where the offical tax rates are well
over 100%, though.

[http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2011/11/ita...](http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2011/11/italy-
fact-of-the-day-4.html)

~~~
toyg
That's part of the reason why they actually don't pay any of it. Tax evasion
is widespread and in the open; the government periodically reacts with
amnesties, which is the catholic thing to do, right? All is forgiven, let's
try again! But what are you going to do, knowing there is going to be an
amnesty sooner or later? You just don't pay, of course. So the State is not
getting enough money, and they have to create a new tax to cover the
shortfall, which will increase the official rate but that's ok, because almost
nobody is paying it anyway, not even your main politician for 17 years, and
he's fucking rich.

This makes the real tax rate between 5 and 20%, depending on the specific
amnesty you're going to enjoy, how much you feel like paying, and how good is
your accountant.

------
fasouto
Spanish here, it's the same in my country...

Also you have to deal with stupid bureaucracy and pay a lot of taxes even if
you are not profitable.

------
Skillset
There was a great article in the New York Times last year that partly
attributed Italy's stagnation to its unusually insular, family-oriented
culture.

"The suspicion of Italians when it comes to extra-familial institutions
explains why many here care more about protecting what they have than
enhancing their wealth. Most Italians live less than a mile or two from their
parents and stay there, often for financial benefits like cash and in-kind
services like day care. It’s an insularity that runs all the way up to the
corporate suites. The first goal of many entrepreneurs here isn’t growth, so
much as keeping the business in the family."

See:
[http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/business/global/01italy.ht...](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/business/global/01italy.html?pagewanted=all)

------
vimalg2
I'm Indian and the first thing i did was look at that bar chart about people's
attitudes towards 'fate'.

No surprise to me, India ranks highest on the fatalism curve - 80% of us
believe we are helpless to choose our path to success.

...which is fine. But when i see kids here, from the next generation as well,
who somehow have this attitude, it breaks my heart.

For a start, i'd advocate teaching Critical thinking skills in our schools.

------
vanni
Italy does not suck at all at the startup game. You English-only speaking
people simply don't often hear about us because we speak Italian on Italian
Startup Scene (<http://www.facebook.com/groups/italianstartups/>) so our plans
to conquer the world with our startups remain hidden to you. ;)

Antonio, come to our (why not yours yet?) group and see what 3248 Italian
startuppers are currently doing to improve the situation of Italy.

And after Berlusconi's exit from politics, Italy will be a better place for
everyone.

~~~
acangiano
Hi Vanni,

I've actually been part of ISS for a while, and am familiar with the great
minds that it attracts. I even talked about it on Stacktrace:
[http://stacktrace.it/2011/01/25/intervista-con-stefano-
berna...](http://stacktrace.it/2011/01/25/intervista-con-stefano-bernardi-sul-
mondo-delle-startup-italiane/)

Unfortunately, it's still a group of 3000-4000 people only, from which you
can't really draw conclusions about a country of 60M people.

On the bright side, it's a light in the dark and one of the most exciting
communities I've seen in Italy.

~~~
vanni
I am allergic to generalizations, so I felt a bit sick when I read that "the
real limit is the mentality that _MOST_ young Italians have: risk aversion,
fear of failure, sense of self-entitlement, fatalism, cynicism and envy". I'm
not a hater here, I hate haters :P Just trying to show the other side of the
coin. Moreover in the post you (implicitly) focus on tech/web startups. What
about traditional startups in Italy? Btw thank you for your response.

------
quinndupont
Italy has a grand and extensive history of craft and flexible production, and
to ignore these "material" industries when analysing the existence of software
companies misses a considerable factor.

------
angrisha
Amazing article acangiano! Specially loved the graph...It just shows that the
people who believe that success lies in their own hands end up being wealthier
and more successful!

I am an Indian. Yes the last column in the bar and I can totally understand
what u mean about countries sucking at start up games. There is a negative
mindset people have towards building new businesses. The safety and the
boredom of a government job is much more appealing to them. Makes me sad...

------
danso
The included Pew center graph is powerful. And fascinating:
[http://programmingzen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/does-
su...](http://programmingzen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/does-success-
depend-on-forces-outside-our-control-e1320936286945.png)

Interesting to see South Korea near the right side, rather than closer to
Japan.

------
giulivo
not to defend Italians, but 20 (probably more) years of bad government and
mafia collusion have robbed money from salaries and people, killing every real
chance of growth and without giving back in turn any good social service

to me these have at least influenced "Fatalism" and "Risk aversion"

~~~
giulivo
blaming on "something" or "someone" else you could say, but hey bad
governments and mafia DO exist

------
LilValleyBigEgo
Even if I can't accurately diagnose breast cancer I'd be happy to give it a
go, hrrhrrr, say no more, eh? Eh?

------
cq
the OP is full of shit, read this :
[http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/11/10/start-ups-
an...](http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/11/10/start-ups-and-safety-
nets/)

~~~
smackfu
Seems a little fast and loose for that graph to equate new LLCs and startups.
Beyond the general issue of getting any statistics like "number of startups"
across dozens of countries.

~~~
cq
The source for that data is the World Bank

