

ASK HN: Going around a tech recruiter - mpc

Applied for a job at a startup that could potentially make me the 4th employee.It ended up being a headhunter firm that I applied through and now their all over me.<p>I searched based on the title of the job posting and found not only the name of the startup but also that they have the same posting on their page.<p>So should I do them a favor and stop talking to the headhunter and apply to them directly?
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vasudeva
I once was going through a headhunter -- a rather pushy and 'slick' one -- for
a gig at IBM. During the initial phone interview with the hiring manager, it
became clear that the position was not as described, and I wasn't a good fit
for that piece of the project.

As she described the scenario, it turned out she had a gap in a related
position that was much more suited to my skillset. I told her so and she
indicated interest.

A few days later, the phone rang, and I picked it up to a torrent of profanity
from the headhunter, who was accusing me of 'backdooring' him and swearing up
a storm, promising I'd never work in this industry again and calling me all
sorts of four-letter things.

I was taken aback, and set him straight on what I had intended, not to mention
how I did and didn't expect to be spoken to by a headhunter.

The phonecall wrapped up with him unctuously promising to find me a 'real nice
position' somewhere... but judging by the treatment I had gotten from him, I'd
have to be retarded to have any further dealings with him.

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jraines
As a headhunter (my day job), I can tell you that this would be a real shitty
thing to do. Unless of course they've been unethical towards you -- for
example, like one commenter said here, trumping up the job description.

Also, as another commenter implied -- you are going to get stronger
consideration for the job by going through the headhunter than if you apply
directly, especially if it's an attractive position that they receive a lot of
applicants for. If they're good, they'll get you a better offer, too.

Be nice to recruiters; most of us are trying hard to provide a valuable
service.

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brk
So what is the issue if they are all over you?

A good, effective recruiter can be of HUGE value when you're looking for a
job. They can help you better gauge salary range (and likelihood of the
company extended the pay scale if you're top-notch but otherwise
"unaffordable").

While many companies will post jobs on their website as well, not many hiring
managers actually like to screen through resumes.

What you mostly have to determine though is if you're working with a quality
head-hunter, or just someone who tries to find random personnel matches for
random companies.

Some questions to ask this, or any other recruiter: Are they
retained/exclusive for the search on this position? For the company overall or
at some level (all development jobs, etc)?

How do you compare to other candidates they have submitted for the position?

What kind of feedback have the other candidates received so far?

Who else have they placed at the current company (I know you said this is a
3-person company)?

Who else at the company have they placed in the past in other positions?

Who do they know on the management team, and what is their relationship with
those people?

What can they tell you about the company beyond what is on the "About Us"
page?

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m0nty
No. That's one of the all-time big no-nos in recruitment. You're stuck with
the recruiter, even if they hinder the process. Also, dumb as it may seem
(most recruiters don't have a clue about technology) many companies have good
reasons to use them, and probably don't want you subverting that process.

Good luck with the job anyway :)

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indiejade
My advice is contrary to what most people here are saying: avoid both the
headhunter firm, and companies that utilize headhunter firms.

To begin, there's a _reason_ they're "all over you." I know and have been
there, too, sometimes getting several calls in one day from various agencies.
Any phone call that begins with "I'm so and so with such and such IT staffing.
I have a client that. . ." is a no-no in my book. Headhunters don't care how
much money you make, only how much you can make them.

They tend to like to leech the maximum amounts possible both from you and from
the company you are sent to work for "for them." The really pathetic thing is
most headhunters/recruiters don't even know what they're talking about tech-
wise. Sure, they may have some smooth telephone skills, but that's about it.
The most laughable one called me up to ask if I knew what RHEL stood for.

The constant barrage of calls and such from them should tell you: (a) that
there are more leeches like them than there are people like you and (b) that
your time and talent are potentially valuable to somebody somewhere, but that
various obstacles exist in your line of communication.

Maybe I'm just a stickler for efficiencies, but seriously. Putting yourself
behind a "brick wall" (IT staffing/headhunter) even if the company you want to
work for is indeed on the other side of that brick wall can be really
frustrating. It's especially frustrating when you have to re-arrange that
brick wall every time, just to get anything done.

One more thing to note: The fact that this "startup" is already utilizing a
headhunter firm would worry me if I were you. Usually companies don't tend to
need to pawn off hiring duties until they're unable to handle hiring on their
own: this can be an early warning sign.

I don't know if I can speak for the group, but I think most of us here on HN
value our independence and as someone earlier mentioned "being stuck" anywhere
just doesn't factor into the equation.

P.S. I'm sorry, but it's not a "valuable service" when it's something that
anybody can easily do on their own. MBA Rule #1: managers should not ask
others to do something they can do themselves; this includes searching for,
seeking out and talking to potential employees _directly_.

~~~
byrneseyeview
"Headhunters don't care how much money you make, only how much you can make
them."

Mhm. And grocery stores don't care about whether you go hungry, just whether
or not you give them money. And landlords don't care about whether you have a
home, just ...

I'm a recruiter. I avoid lying about jobs or the candidates I submit for them
because my ability to do business depends on being someone both sides want to
hear from. If I send half a dozen people to a company, and they all complain
about how the job isn't what they expected, they lose the hour of interview
time and I lose a client. Why would I do that?

~~~
allenbrunson
why would you do that? well, incompetence springs to mind. (i'm not talking
about you specifically, but about why recruiters screw up sometimes.)

lord knows i've talked to my fair share of incompetent recruiters. they often
don't speak english very well and they seem intent on blowing through the
highest number of candidates in the shortest possible time.

if it starts to look like you might be a match, god help you, because the
recruiter wants to ram you down the throat of the employer as soon as
possible, before some other recruiter gets somebody in there.

i always find that part particularly galling. if i'm going to switch jobs, it
will be a major upheaval in my life. it may involve picking up and moving
across the country. yet these low-rent recruiters expect me to hurry through
the process as fast as possible, so they don't lose the commission.

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jsdalton
It's hard hiring tech people, and most small companies aren't very skilled at
hiring people.

My company had this difficulty recently...we posted the job on craigslist and
on our site but didnt' get what we were looking for.

A headhunter finally contacted me and offered me a great developer. We loved
him and hired him. That was 6 months ago and he's still doing great work for
us.

The headhunter got a 5-figure fee on the deal...for what? Probably just
helping my developer out with his paperwork and then interceding with us on
his behalf. He couldn't have spent more than 8 hours working with us and
working with our developer.

And yet, I love my new developer and we would not have found him without this
headhunter's help.

Moral of the story: Think of headhunters like investment bankers. They make
enormous sums of money (sometimes) and seemingly do no real "work", but they
can play a very useful role in the functioning of the market (in this case the
"talent" market).

I'd stick with your guy.

~~~
edw519
"He couldn't have spent more than 8 hours working with us and working with our
developer."

How many hundreds of hours did he work without pay to get to that point?

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ambition
Build a positive relationship with the headhunter. If you leave the startup,
they can help you find a new job. If you stay and the startup succeeds, they
can help you recruit new teammates.

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goofygrin
Early in my career I used headhunters to find a job simply because they either
had a connection in the company and could circumvent some processing or
because they were on "approved vendor" lists (bigger companies).

10+ years later, whenever I need work, I _never_ call a recruiter. My first
calls/emails/IMs are to my network. They are infinitely more valuable than any
headhunter.

At the last startup I worked at, we used both direct hire and firms. I will
tell you that there was a _LOT_ more flexibility when going direct. I mean
more pay, bonuses, vacation, etc. A recruiter makes a % of your salary. So if
the company can pay up to 100k, and the recruiter will get 10% (usually it's
more like 20+%) then how much do you think they will be able to pay you? I bet
they won't offer more than 91k. If you'd come direct you'd've had more
leverage to get that $9k as a bonus or straight salary.

That said, I think that you might be too late in the process...

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edw519
Too late. That would be unethical. You'd be branded as someone who does
unethical things. Not worth it.

~~~
projectileboy
Furthermore, if the company is willing to go around the recruiter they paid
for, exactly how ethical do you think they'll be in their dealings with _you_?
A few years ago I learned this one the hard way.

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ten-seven
Stick with the headhunter. The company that engaged them expects to work with
them. It seems odd that they'd also post the position on their own jobs page.
It's possible they weren't getting any responses, so they added the head
hunter.

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gruseom
Am I the only one who senses a bit of a red flag in a startup using a
recruiter to find their 4th employee? I could be wrong; it's impossible to
tell based on next to no information. But it does suggest that they might not
be plugged in to the right communities, and/or that they're already afflicted
with bureaucratic thinking.

Edit: I think I'm probably just being prejudiced here. But I'll leave the
comment because I'm curious to know what others think.

~~~
run4yourlives
Depends, really.

If the startup is a social network based in the valley, yes, they probably
have their heads up their asses.

If the startup is in the banking sector and based in Kansas City however,
being "plugged in" to the right communities might not be the same communities
where you'd find startup talent. They're not going to waste their time on
techcrunch, because they need to stay connected to their clients, who are not
in that sphere. That leaves them at a huge disadvantage when it comes to
talent, so why not use a headhunter?

