
Unit 731 - rasengan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731
======
isoprophlex
The descriptions of what went down there are almost too much to read, this is
some straight up dr. Mengele shit.

Most interestingly:

 _The researchers involved in Unit 731 were secretly given immunity by the
U.S. in exchange for the data they gathered through human experimentation_...
More reading at [0]

While further down the linked article is written:

 _There was consensus among U.S researchers in the postwar period that the
human experimentation data gained was of little value to the development of
American biological weapons and medicine. Postwar reports have generally
regarded the data as "crude and ineffective", with one expert even deeming it
"amateurish"._

[0] [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_cover-
up_of_Japanes...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_cover-
up_of_Japanese_war_crimes)

~~~
Iv
I once read similar sentiment regarding the nazi efforts. I was curious,
because I saw, probably like the U.S. did when they agreed to the exchange,
that experimenting on humans like we did on animals could not possibly fail to
give insights that would be almost impossible to get otherwise.

Reading what they did, however, it really looked like the valued cruelty over
science. The people they hired for that were not qualified (heh, turns out
that sociopathic biologists who bought into nazi racist theories were not the
brightest) and disregarded any kind of scientific method.

Also one of their goal was to prove the inferiority of some races. Many
experiments only had this goal in mind.

I thought they experimented on humans like we do on animals. Animal
experimentation may be cruel but cruelty is not the point, actually stress can
impact the result in a big way.

I remember they made experiment to see what temperatures the human body can
handle. So they subject prisoners to various extreme conditions and... do not
even note the time they were exposed to it. It was THAT amateurish. I really
feel it was just torture renamed. "Hey, let's burn some Jews! We'll call it
science!" "Ok, I'm in." Experiment result: the untermenschen died.

~~~
leftyted
> I really feel it was just torture renamed. "Hey, let's burn some Jews! We'll
> call it science!" "Ok, I'm in." Experiment result: the untermenschen died.

In most cases they were doing actual science, just divorced from any
recognizable morality. I'm less familiar with the Japanese case, but many of
the Germans who did similar things were respected scientists (Carl Clauberg is
an example). The desire to say "that's not real science" is emotional, but
it's not accurate.

The truth is that these kinds of studies used to be not all that rare. The
most famous is the Tuskegee syphilis experiment, but there are others. In The
US, in the 1920s, at least 800 prisoners were infected with Malaria. Joseph
Goldberger similarly experimented on prisoners in attempt to understand
pellagra (and refused to let them drop out when their symptoms became
unbearable). Richard Strong famously injected people with plague. In some of
these cases, subjects signed a waiver, but in others they didn't. Internees in
camps could have been induced to sign a waiver if the Germans or Japanese had
cared about that.

Morality constrains science. That's a good thing. But it requires us to admit
that we could learn more and more quickly if we had no morality. Understanding
how radiation affects human reproductive systems or what the human body can
withstand is valuable information. It just isn't information that we can
obtain while staying with the guidelines of our morality.

~~~
Iv
"The desire to say "that's not real science" is emotional, but it's not
accurate."

I thought that. I was like "OK, no one wants to touch this and they are right,
but there has to be some valuable insights!" IIRC the only thing that they
learnt was that the human body can survive longer than they thought in very
cold water, but even that was hinted by tons of anecdotal evidence.

Really, the lack of protocols and basic measurements looks like it was sub-
highschool level. Go read some of the reports, it was mostly about cruelty.

------
eps
From what I gathered talking to Chinese fellas I worked with (in Canada), this
is one of the main reasons why Chinese still strongly dislike Japanese people.
In a stereotype sort of way.

They also really don’t like discussing this topic and will answer with much
hesitation and only if pressed. So it appears to be a wound that didn’t quite
heal yet.

~~~
calyth2018
It should be no surprise that it's a wound that hasn't quite healed yet.

Comfort women [0] is another one. Before I immigrated as a kid, HK victims
were still trying to sort that out with Japan. South Korea is also a victim,
among other SE Asian countries.

I don't dislike the people. I dislike the successive administration that wants
to ignore what their country have done to many different groups around that
time.

And seeing how the West is complicit, is it that hard to understand there's
still mistrust there?

0:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_women](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_women)

------
adamveld12
I'm a big fan of Jocko's podcast, there are great episodes that talk about
Unit 731
([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mizmXTWDf-4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mizmXTWDf-4))
and the Rape of Nanjing
([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uylTcj5yDOM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uylTcj5yDOM))
that are worth the time if you're interested in learning about the darker side
of history.

The Rape of Nanjing episode is particularly interesting since he goes over the
book "The Rape of Nanking: The Forgotten Holocaust of World War II" by Iris
Chang in the first part, following that up with readings from "The Woman Who
Could Not Forget" by, Dr. Ying Ying Chang which goes over how researching the
Nanjing Massacre affected her daughter Iris deeply enough to the point of
ending her own life.

Usually this is stuff that people avoid, but I feel that knowing what people
are capable of doing gives some perspective in my life.

~~~
Lio
We should never forget.

Any speculative fiction about the horrors of runaway AI or the supernatural or
some form of extraterrestrial life pale in comparison to what our species has
done to itself over the years.

Any horror you could possibly imagine, some wanker has probably already done
it to someone else for real.

------
GEBBL
Some light Saturday reading

~~~
rm_-rf_slash
Between this and the MKUltra post also on the front page today, I have to
wonder if OP spent their Friday night watching Adam Curtis documentaries.

~~~
H8crilA
Curtis is a great story teller, and I'm yet to find a factual inaccuracy in
his storytelling style of reporting. Full recommendation on anything by this
guy.

------
ethbro
That Wikipedia article is a train wreck in shock journalism.

As documented as the material is, the current state is basically just a pile
of descriptions of attrocities committed. With many duplicated.

Compare to
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust)

I'd guess because no one wants to spend their time reading primary sources
about something so terrible, and straightening it out.

------
lettergram
Lots of Wikipedia articles today lol pretty interesting, especially all the
groups working on human experimentation.

~~~
mLuby
and from the same poster…

