
Uber is charging passengers a $10 cancellation fee even when the driver cancels - ap46
https://www.reddit.com/r/australia/comments/60yl7v/i_think_uber_is_scamming_people_through_basic/
======
elahd
I've been in standoffs with Uber/Lyft drivers where the driver calls or texts
me saying they don't want to pick me up for whatever reason and demand that I
cancel the hail. Drivers don't want to be the ones who cancel because
canceling reduces their rating. I don't want to cancel because I both don't
want the hit to my rating and I don't want to have to follow up with Uber/Lyft
to request a cancellation fee refund.

Last year, I filed a complaint with the NYC Taxi & Limousine Commission
against both Lyft and an individual driver after the driver refused to pick me
up in the middle of Manhattan but refused to actually cancel the ride. I
eventually gave in and canceled the request. Lyft refused to refund the
cancellation fee. I ended up getting a chargeback from my credit card company.

I submitted the driver's text messages to the T&LC as evidence and eventually
got a phone hearing -- Lyft and the driver were required to appear in person.
Lyft failed to appear and got a $1,000 fine. The driver showed up but was
found not responsible for lack of evidence. It was a complete waste of time.

We'll be stuck with this until regulators realize that there's a pattern of
abuse and start cracking down.

~~~
chii
This is what happens when things are unregulated. But oh, regulation causes
high fees/cost, and so it's ok to ignore! Until of course, when it isn't.

~~~
qeternity
No it's not. He stated that he went to the regulator and complained and they
dismissed it.

He actually received remedy from his credit card, which is not a regulatory
requirement but rather the free market at work.

~~~
waqf
Is there really an effective market in credit cards' willingness to refund?
Aren't credit cards preferred mostly because regulation require them to refund
the user in a lot of cases?

(Also, what's with that weird US regulation about a purchase having to be
"within my home state or within 100 miles of my home" to be eligible for some
credit card protections?)

~~~
qeternity
The credit card market is a huge money maker and incredibly competitive. Have
you seen the bonuses that US banks offer?

~~~
waqf
Yes, but I don't think they're competing on refund policy. It sure isn't
what's in large print in the ads, and besides, the policy is mostly dictated
to them by the credit card network (which isn't so competitive, it's largely a
Visa/MC duopoly) and by legislation (which isn't at all competitive).

~~~
qeternity
What? Of course they are. If I felt like my credit card didn't have my back on
the chargeback policy, then I'd be far more likely to go to a competitor. It
may not be what's on the ads, but you do realize customer retention is a huge
part of competition, not just customer acquisition.

------
ryanbrunner
The comments point out a perfectly reasonable explanation for why this charge
might exist:

One reason that drivers can specify for a cancellation is that the rider
wasn't at the pickup location. Even though it's the driver cancelling in this
case, it's reasonable for Uber to charge the rider in my opinion. If this is
the case, the poster is still being improperly charged the fee, but it's more
about the driver lying about a cancellation reason than some plot on Uber's
part.

~~~
saalweachter
Yeah, it sounds like Uber is basically favoring the driver by default in
cancellation. Which is ironic when you consider that we are usually hearing
stories about Uber screwing their drivers.

I'm curious how often in these cases was it actually user error [standing in
the wrong spot] vs system error [GPS reporting a wrong location] vs driver
error [driver navigated to wrong location, assumed user had walked away] vs
driver malice [intentionally cancelling with no intent of pickup]. Most of the
users getting canceled on assume the last, but I'd hope that either this sort
of driver malice is rare or Uber has some sort of "driver fraud detection"
algorithm.

~~~
gcr
How is this ironic? It's totally possible to repress and hurt drivers while
still giving them the option of cancelling.

I know you're not saying this, but it doesn't make sense to cite this as
evidence that "Uber really is treating their drivers well! Look look, they get
to push a button that cancels the trip! Wouldn't that make you feel empowered
if you were a driver??"

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bluetidepro
> "Whats more is that they don't refund the money they took unlawfully -
> instead they credit it to your Uber account."

I think that's the part that seems the most messed up. However, I will say
that in the USA (Chicago) I've had this happen before (it's only a $5 charge,
not $10) and when I disputed it, I got a credit back to my credit card and not
an Uber credit like they mentioned. I wonder if it's different in Australia
(assuming this is where it happened because r/australia)?

EDIT: As others have mentioned both here and on reddit, I am chalking this up
to the drivers trying to scam riders, and not Uber directly doing it out of
malice. I've had the same issue before when a driver tries to call me and tell
me to cancel the ride for X reason that is their fault, that way they don't
get the fee/penalty, but I'm not stupid. I know what they are trying to do. ha
As someone else here said, this just bad design that is a lose-lose for either
side, driver or rider, depending how it's done. All in all, I think Uber will
always make this right if you just dispute it, and contact their support.
¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

~~~
dabber
I've canceled rides in several cities around the north east US, usually
because the driver is taking too long/lost. Every time, Uber's policy was to
charge me $5 if I cancelled 2 min after requesting. When I did dispute the
charge, the process was the same as OP on reddit (including an account credit
over a refund.) I wonder why there's a difference in how the money is
reimbursed.

~~~
Chris2048
> the driver is taking too long/lost

> Uber's policy was to charge me $5 if I cancelled 2 min after requesting

To be clear, you waited less than 2 min for a driver before cancelling? Or the
charge only applies after 2 min?

~~~
dabber
Ah, you're right I wasn't clear (it was early.) What I meant was, it's Uber's
policy to charge a fee if a ride is canceled some amount of time after the
driver accepts you as their fare. I think the grace period before the fee is
about 2 min though I may be wrong. This my experience in New York and Boston.

I've never canceled a ride before waiting 5+ minutes and two of the three
times I am referring to the driver drove past me twice.

------
Overtonwindow
I've finally deleted Uber and it's primarily because of the tipping issue.
I've had almost universal good service around the world with Uber drivers, but
the tipping thing is getting aggressive, and subtle hints are rapidly become
overt demands. Uber was great when it started but government corruption and
meddling, combined with Uber's greed, and the corrupt taxi industry fighting
it, is killing the service. Small improvements could go a long way:

Add tipping in the app; ban cash tips. Require drivers to rate passengers
BEFORE they get those tips.

No cancellation fee for anyone if cancelled within 10 minutes. After ten
minutes whomever cancels, pays, period. Uber knows when it's inconvenient for
someone to pick someone up due to traffic. The data is there.

Require background checks on all drivers. Why is this even an issue? Uber
should pay for it.

Increase the amount drivers get. Seriously it's ridiculous how little drivers
make.

~~~
kwhitefoot
Why should you tip anyone? You are buying a service for an agreed price, why
should the price go up when you get to the point where you pay?

~~~
prostoalex
Uber's complete refusal to integrate tipping into the app led to various
perverse incentives, mainly drivers blackmailing riders for a tip or else
their rating will suffer [https://hbr.org/2016/05/ubers-new-tipping-policy-is-
a-mistak...](https://hbr.org/2016/05/ubers-new-tipping-policy-is-a-mistake)

~~~
Overtonwindow
Wow! Time to give Lyft a try. Thanks!

------
henvic
Once I asked for a Uber driver on my corporate account during a business trip
and the driver cancelled on me. I asked for the cancellation fee back and got
$5 on my account.

Wait, what? Weren't my business supposed to get the $5 fee back? I am just an
employee there and even if I was the point of contact or the owner, it's not
how things should work.

I just earned $5 (that was probably charged) for being cancelled on and I most
likely used it on a private trip later on.

I bet the contracts they have for corporate accounts make it clear (or else
companies would be mad at them already) so it's not my problem, but it's weird
nonetheless.

~~~
galdosdi
> I bet the contracts they have for corporate accounts make it clear (or else
> companies would be mad at them already) so it's not my problem, but it's
> weird nonetheless.

I wouldn't be so sure. They may just not have noticed / not care that much.

If it had happened to me, at my current employer, I would definitely have at
least reported it to my finance dept. (This is somewhat employer specific
though -- my employer has a convenient system already in place for what
happens if you accidentally charge a personal purchase to a corporate card,
and has a noticeable general culture of being careful and scrupulous and
"doing the right thing"; at an employer lacking that, I'd probably just ignore
it as you did, figuring I'd be more of a bother by even bringing it up)

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CPLX
There's a lot of reasons to hate Uber these days but I'm not sure this is one
of them. The problem with cancellations is real, I have to cancel rides
_constantly_ because I live and work in Brooklyn Heights/ DUMBO and the app
just can't seem to get the hang of the river, the bridges, and the expressway
that runs through our neighborhood.

It's pretty much routine to get assigned a car and then watch as it speeds
over your head rapidly towards Manhattan, or get assigned a car already on
Wall Street, which is about 1000 yards away on the map on the other side of
the East River.

It's super annoying, but if you get hit with the cancellation fee you can just
go into the app and do it and it's always simple and instantaneous. Calling it
a scam seems a little extreme.

~~~
galdosdi
WOW, are you serious? After all these huge amounts of venture capital, Uber
still uses bird's distance rather than (easily obtainable) estimated travel
time in all areas?

What a joke.

~~~
CPLX
I mean I'll give them some credit that their algorithms are at least trying to
be aware of the route rather than as-the-crow-flies distance of course, but
they seem to have trouble handling New York's bridges and tunnels.

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employee8000
It's not a scam. Iirc when the driver cancels they have the option of not
charging the customer, or charging the customer. It was the driver who decided
to charge the customer. But when the driver cancels the ride it affects their
metrics so they can't do it all the time. I imagine if they keep charging
customers they will get kicked off the platform.

~~~
fnl
That's true; But Uber certainly should send the customer a mail to inform him
he was charged by the driver $10 for not taking the ride, I think?

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Grue3
It's just driver being an ass or an idiot. Pretty sure the driver has an
option to cancel without charging you and the one that does. I had experienced
both. The first driver said his GPS isn't working and told me to cancel, which
I refused because then I would be charged (also happened to me before). He
cancelled, and I was still charged. I got a refund later (via customer
service). The second time the driver was 10 minutes away and he called me and
suggested me to cancel and get another ride. I refused because I assumed the
app chose the closest driver to me. After a while he cancelled and I wasn't
charged.

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joshstrange
It's been awhile since I've used either Lyft or Uber since I moved downtown
and can walk everywhere but I distinctly remember an incident when I requested
a Lyft and it said it was 10minutes out. 15 minutes later it was still 10
minutes out and the driver called and said they were on their way (I assume
they were just sitting in their house in "Driving" mode and took that long to
get moving) but it was going to take them almost 20 minutes to get to me and
if that was unacceptable I should cancel. I canceled the ride and got a
different driver. Lyft charged me $5 for the cancel but I was able to dispute
the charge successfully. Overall it was a huge PITA and I felt/feel like Lyft
should do more to prevent people from taking so long after accepting a rider
to actually get moving.

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emmanuel_1234
Happens ALL THE TIME in Hong Kong. The worst case so far, I've had a driver
call me as soon as I submitted the pick up request, hung up the phone
immediately as I mentioned where I was going, then stayed without moving for
the next 90 minutes, without cancelling (I took a cab long before that).
Similar, though less intense experience happened to me on about 20% of the
rides, every time I have to go through the claim process to (automatically)
get my money back.

Infuriating, I really wish there was viable alternative to Uber in HK, but
taxi drivers are a lot worse (disgusting, rude, very frequently refuse a
hire...).

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leephillips
What's wrong with taxis? I've taken plenty of cabs, but never an Uber or Lyft.
In a city you can easily flag them down, or find a number and phone for one.
Many cab companies have had phone apps for years, too. If you prefer Uber, can
you explain why? Because there are tons of complaints here about the company.

~~~
Overtonwindow
Depends on the location. NYC taxis are generally pretty good. In DC? No.
Especially if you're handicapped, a person of color, or in an area they don't
like. Blind wit a service animal? You are SOL. Taxi's will flat out ignore
you. They will drive painfully slow and drive in circles to run up the fare.
Back when DC required cabs to take credit cards, the taxis would fight and say
the machine is broken, or just not follow the law. These are the issues that
pushed me away from taxis. I'd much rather deal with corporate Uber than
government Taxi Commission.

~~~
leephillips
DC cabs used to run on a zone system, rather than meters. Trips within the
central zones were incredibly cheap, and there was no incentive to drive
slowly or take a circuitous route, because there was no meter to run up.
Meters are probably better for the drivers, though. Thanks for explaining.

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superasn
I think it is one of those cases where this applies: Never attribute to malice
that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

I think it may be a loophole or bad system design rather than a willful scam
by uber to make some extra money.

~~~
giarc
That may have been the case 4 years ago, but Uber is a fairly seasoned company
with many iterations of their app. I don't think it's safe to jump to "uber is
scamming us" but this is definitely something that was done on purpose.

~~~
sushid
Look, I have no skin in the game but Uber doesn't charge for cancelled rides
if the driver honestly cancels it. It looks like the driver in OP's link
marked the passenger as 'not arrived when at pickup,' which defaulted to the
app charging the OP.

I had someone cancel on me this morning. It shows up as cancelled and as a
$0.00 ride on my ride history.

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thriftwy
I think that decision to withhold the destination of the ride from drivers was
a very bad idea they should repeal.

They wanted to be sure that drivers don't choose convenient riders and leave
less convenient ones unserved, but a) it didn't work, only introduced this
"you cancel, no, you" game after destination becomes apparent, and b)
opportunistic drivers can no longer give a ride to people who go in the same
direction, because they can't tell; limiting driver base to semi-professionals
who have nothing else to do.

~~~
galdosdi
In order to do that, they'd have to increase the price for rides to less
attractive (to drivers) destinations. A trip that ends somewhere unlikely to
have another customer available (like an outlying residential area in the
evening) is way less attractive than an identical time/distance trip to
somewhere with lots of likely fares (a central business district, for example)

So, if drivers can see the destinations, they will simply avoid ever picking
up jobs for "bad" destinations, unless properly incentivized.

Customers going to "unpopular" destinations are essentially being subsidized
at the expense of drivers and customers going to "popular" destinations. If
you remove the destination blinding AND don't bother to increase the price for
"unpopular" destinations, people trying to go to "unpopular" destinations will
find they can never get a car, even worse than now

Anyway, I agree they shouldn't be distorting the price market like that, it
just creates frustrations for both sides

~~~
thriftwy
This assumes that rides outnumber drivers so that drivers can be picky. In
practice tho, it should be the other way around: drivers should be choosing
between a paid ride to "bad" destination, and no ride for some time while
they're waiting. You can trivially teach the algorith to give better rides to
less choosy drivers first.

Second, if you still have amateur drivers on your platform who do ad-hoc
carpooling, chances that they're looking for an one-way drive to the same
"bad" destination because they have further non-cab business there. You can
teach the algorithm to offer a selection of rides to such drivers for their
first ride in a few hours. Or even let them to specify where they want to go.
Maybe it's already implemented by someone?

And yes - Uber price is always unpredictable for a rider, so why not just
factor in destination desirability into it?

~~~
aianus
> Or even let them to specify where they want to go. Maybe it's already
> implemented by someone?

Yes this is already implemented by Uber [1]. I have used it several times on
my commute home.

[1] [https://techcrunch.com/2015/11/16/uber-drivers-can-now-
pick-...](https://techcrunch.com/2015/11/16/uber-drivers-can-now-pick-up-
riders-headed-in-the-same-direction-as-them/)

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vmateixeira
_a lot of corporate accounts would simply get milked by this dodgy
functionality_

Seems like they're trying everything they can..

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Taylor_OD
I've had this happen a number of times but I always go in and report a issue
with the ride and click my driver canceled and they credit my account with $5
right away. They don't even look into it they give it to me right away. It's
not ideal but I think its their way of dealing with this easily.

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sjg007
Why does the driver accept the fare in the first place?

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tuddman
cancel cancellation fees. problem solved.

------
tuddman
cancel cancellation fees. problem solved.

