
London’s Tech Boom Is More Than Just Hype, the Hard Numbers Say So - vvvv
http://techcrunch.com/2014/09/20/londons-tech-boom-is-more-than-just-hype-the-hard-numbers-say-so/
======
tomelders
It's easy to forget how small the UK is, which leads to London centric
commentary when people talk about the UK tech scene. In reality, a startup
could be based comfortably outside of London where the cost of living and the
cost of operating are a lot cheaper, creating not only a better deal for
founders and employees, but investors money would be going where it's needed
and not on rent or rates. I've recently had the opportunity to see what rents
people are charging for office space at the moment and it's obscene.

The London investors will still be there. The talent in London is usually from
somewhere else in the UK or Europe anyway. It's a cool city, but it's not as
cool as having a successful startup of your very own.

~~~
allegory
_> In reality, a startup could be based comfortably outside of London where
the cost of living and the cost of operating are a lot cheaper_

No. There are virtually no skilled people outside perhaps London, Cambridge
and Oxford. I know, as I've had to try and recruit people outside those areas.
It's virtually impossible to find anyone who is a) good and b) not self-
employed and quite happy about staying that way. Even the M4 corridor is a
hopless vacuum of talent these days.

Best place is suburban London or no office if you want to cut costs.

One of the cool things about the M25 area though is there are lots of skilled
immigrants from South Africa, the Ukraine and India who are considerably
better than us natives (I'm native to the UK).

As for the city, it's not somewhere I'd work again.

~~~
lotsofmangos
_There are virtually no skilled people outside perhaps London, Cambridge and
Oxford._

That's total horseshit.

~~~
rjsw
The comment that you are replying to did qualify the statement by saying that
they were looking for employees not self-employed contractors.

~~~
lotsofmangos
Fair enough. The idea that all the people employable outside London, Cambridge
or Oxford are all self-employed contractors who are not interested in salary
positions is also total horseshit.

~~~
allegory
It's not hard finding people; it's hard finding _quality people_ because
they've all moved to London for the salary or are self-employed.

When I say quality, I mean people who can pick up anything we throw at them
and pick the right tech for the job rather than be tied to a tech platform,
not Joe average ASP.Net webforms or Kate average Oracle monkey.

We need people who pick the tools for the job, not factory pressed
programmers.

Also have you tried hiring anyone anywhere in the UK that can actually write
C? Totally damn impossible even offering £120k.

~~~
Nursie
Well if you need a C contractor and my general level of snark hasn't put you
off, in this thread or others on HN, feel free to get in touch with
david.hicks@starnose.net

I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I have been pretty shocked at the standards
I've encountered since I left big blue and decided to go it alone a few years
back.

------
ryanjshaw
Hopefully the elections next year will bring back the more sensible highly
skilled migrant immigration policies from the past that will allow highly
skilled foreigners to participate in and contribute to this boom.

Current policy introduced by the coalition government, as I understand it [1],
is that a highly skilled migrant in the UK from outside the EU would simply
not be allowed to build a revenue generating side project, either by
themselves or in a partnership. The best they can legally do is find somebody
to take their IP and hire them into a new business - an unlikely prospect, and
a risky one - and even then they'd be limited to 20 hours of work per week
unless the new business goes through a complicated legal process to become a
visa sponsor. And after 5/6 years the foreigner may be declined leave to
remain and forced to return to their home country, regardless of what they may
have built up in the mean time.

[1] This is what my research shows. I'd love to learn that I'm wrong, being
somebody who has to make a decision about whether to take this 5/6 year gamble
while starting a family.

~~~
k-mcgrady
Personally I'm for making immigration easier but how necessary is it for
businesses considering that they can hire from anywhere in EU with very few
hurdles? Are there really many people outside the EU that are so skilled that
an alternative can't be found within the EU?

~~~
ryanjshaw
According to e.g. the CEO of Citibank [1] and the mayor of London [2],
immigration reform would really benefit the UK. The OECD suggests that there's
no reason not to [3].

However, it's more complicated than that. The current policy is actively
deterring young, skilled people from developing their skills and connections
in the UK, which is a great concern for the House of Lords Science and
Technology Committee [4] - who clearly understands that immigration is a long-
term process, and governments can't treat people like sheep if they hope to
attract talent.

If you were 30, about to start a family, would you immigrate knowing that
you're not allowed to make money from tinkering on a side project for the next
5/6 years? And that after that time you wouldn't even be sure if you and your
family could remain in the UK? It's a tough decision. And yet the best of the
best are exactly in that position -- the people who tinker on the side are
exactly the people who become the best, not the ones doing a 9-5 day job.

The irritating thing is that the policies were great prior to 2010, until
Cameron decided to make a policy of reducing immigration to levels that are
simply impossible ("tens of thousands"). His only way to control immigration
is non-EU immigration, which is a very small percentage of actual UK
immigration. It turns out that just a few days ago the government has finally
started to acknowledge the sham [5], after years of criticism. Unfortunately
in the meantime, people have to make very difficult life changing decisions in
the face of this political drama.

[1] [http://www.workpermit.com/news/2014-06-27/minister-uk-
will-n...](http://www.workpermit.com/news/2014-06-27/minister-uk-will-not-bow-
to-business-case-for-increased-immigration)

[2] [http://www.workpermit.com/news/2014-06-17/london-mayor-
londo...](http://www.workpermit.com/news/2014-06-17/london-mayor-london-would-
fall-like-sparta-without-immigration)

[3] [http://www.workpermit.com/news/2014-05-23/migration-is-
econo...](http://www.workpermit.com/news/2014-05-23/migration-is-economically-
neutral-says-oecd-report)

[4] [http://www.workpermit.com/news/2014-04-14/lords-denounce-
uks...](http://www.workpermit.com/news/2014-04-14/lords-denounce-uks-
overblown-rhetoric-on-immigration)

[5] [http://www.workpermit.com/news/2014-09-17/deputy-pm-uk-
has-s...](http://www.workpermit.com/news/2014-09-17/deputy-pm-uk-has-scrapped-
plans-to-reduce-immigration-to-tens%20of%20thousands)

~~~
Nursie
The only way it would benefit the UK would be by maintaining or further
lowering the already low tech wages.

This is not to be encouraged.

~~~
lotsofmangos
Hang on, you are working in Australia from the UK, you asshole. There are few
things more absurdly hypocritical than emigrants who complain about
immigration.

~~~
Nursie
I was for a while yes. Difference being that in Australia businesses are
crying out for employees and there's enough money to pay everyone properly. In
the UK the only shortage is the shortage of people willing to work for
peanuts. I'm not anti immigration. I'm against business opening it up further
to suppress already low wages.

~~~
lotsofmangos
But you are complaining about a suggestion to change the migration rules to
make it easier for migrants to start businesses while here, which would
increase the competition for employees and raise wages.

------
duncanawoods
I have been very impressed with the London HN meetup:

[http://www.meetup.com/HNLondon/](http://www.meetup.com/HNLondon/)

~250 attendees, pizza, beer, comedians and great talks from people like
Stripe, Facebook & CityMapper. Well worth travelling to from outside London.

------
_random_
London is the place to be in Europe. I only wish there were proper large tech
companies head-quartered here and capable of competing with financial sector
in salaries.

~~~
Nursie
There are offices of a few large tech companies around but it makes sense for
them only to have a sales presence in London because it's so incredibly
expensive.

And for workers the UK is not great. Salaries are very low (when compared to
other english-speaking nations) and so are expectations in many companies.

~~~
justincormack
Google has a non sales presence in the UK, has done for a long time (indeed
they claim not to have sales people in UK for tax reasons!). Amazon has just
announced it is moving from Slough to Shoreditch. I am fairly sure Facebook
has engineers here. The older tech companies were based in the traditional M4
corridor (Microsoft, Oracle, etc) but many companies there are moving to
London, as it is easier to hire people.

Salaries are lower than the US, maybe, or parts of it, but lower than other
English speaking countries?

~~~
Nursie
I based that on my experience of the USA and Australia. I got a 60% raise to
do the same job for the same company when I moved from London to Perth a few
years ago.

Tech salaries outside of finance in the UK in general are pretty depressed
IMHO. As far as I can tell this is for a complex of reasons - engineers not
expecting very much cash, the good ones all either go abroad or into finance,
companies are used to mediocre engineers therefore are not willing to pay well
etc etc.

Me, I'm a high priced contractor because it's the only way I've found to
replicate a US/AU salary. And I'm worth it. On my last project I committed
twice as much code as the three permanent engineers combined.

------
tim333
London's coming along although we're a bit lacking in big hits compared to the
US with Google, MSFT, Facebook et al worth ~$406bn, 391bn and $202bn
respectively. The London areas biggest hit (if you include Cambridge as it's
an hour away) is ARM worth about $22bn. Things are definitely on the up here
but with some catching up to do.

~~~
gnerd
I have to agree. I have seen the Shoreditch triangle come a long way and
having taken my skill set around Europe, there really is no place like home
but we aren't exactly silicone valley.

I look forward to some home grown giants over the next few decades.

~~~
walshemj
silicone valley in London would be Soho _nudge_ _nudge_

------
jarmitage
I've been working in tech in London for just over a year, and even in that
short time I feel the spirit has evolved. People are thinking bigger and
smarter.

There is also a rudely healthy crypto currency scene in London, which I
suspect will explode once they find a way through the banking/regulation maze.

~~~
bernardlunn
As a Brit who lived in America and Asia for a long time, the change in the
entrepreneurial culture in London/UK is amazing and it really has all happened
in the last year or so according to the people I speak to.

------
newy
Neat, I happen to be in London (Shoreditch) reading this. Just in town for the
day (Sunday). Any HN peeps up for meeting up? @euwyn on Twitter or email in
profile.

