
Ask HN: Should one buy Intel-based Macs now? - adur1990
Apple today updated the iMac (Pro). Among other changes they also now come with 10th Gen Intel CPUs. The question now becomes if it is a good idea to buy one (or other Macs).<p>Obviusly, this depends on the situation and use-case. Thus, I will give describe my situation. The company I work for gave me a 13&quot; MBP that has deceng juice to get my work done (mainly writing docx and LaTeX, using SSH for remote access to Linux servers and workstations). And I am also alowed to use it for private purposes, so I also use it for my side-projects (Python and Xcode projects mainly). Now comes the catch. I&#x27;m also musician using Logic. And here the MBP struggles having only 4 Cores. So, my plan was to buy an decent iMac and use it for the next 6+ years. I wanted to buy the i9 CPU and 512GB SSD and upgrade the RAM myself. And after all the years, the iMac would be upgradable (to some degree). But these options are now gone, I think. macOS will certainly not be supported for 6+ years (assuming a similar timeline as during the last transition). So if I buy one now, in the near future I will have a really expensive Linux worstation.<p>And there is also the question if (i)Macs with Apple Silicon will be upgradeable. CPUs surely not, but I am afraid RAM and storage won&#x27;t be upgradable neither.<p>So, what is you take on this problem? Would you buy or not? If, why?
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chrisjs96
I'm in the same boat. I'm kind of done with Mac though because Catalina broke
a bunch of VST's I used and Live 9. I'm not paying for an upgrade on Ableton
Live because an OS upgrade. It's not even that old. Live 1 still installs on
Windows just fine. I guess Catalina is getting us used to all the stuff
breaking and never working on ARM. People really expect someone like
Propellerheads Reason to work on ARM? It doesn't even have 4k support. Mark my
words, there is going to be big name music software that will never work on
Arm. They'll just turn in to Windows only support. At least then they don't
have to rewrite their software every two years for Mac. These codebases go
back decades.

I had to downgrade to Mojave but how long is that actually going to work.
Stuff moves too fast on Apple. I can install old deprecated software and
Windows and it boots up just fine. Cakewalk Project 5 for example and load up
projects that are 15 years old. All of the old Cakewalk VST's still work fine
on Windows but stopped working on Mac at Yosemite. It's just pitiful. If I
wasn't a mobile developer I would have dropped Mac in a heartbeat.

------
snowwrestler
In general, I would not buy the first iteration of a major new Apple product.
If you look back the first Macbook Air, first iPhone, first iPad, first Apple
Watch... the third or fourth iteration absolutely blew away the first.

So this seems like a great time to get the latest Intel Mac. By the time
you're ready to replace it, Apple will be past iteration #1 of the ARM Macs,
hopefully well past it.

~~~
Jtsummers
It's probably a good idea to skip the first generation in general, but this is
a bit different than those others.

The first iPhone had a fixed function graphics pipeline and 2G cellular
service. Unsuitable for the native application market that they set up
afterward and changing cellular capabilities and customer expectations.

The first iPad was similarly very constrained, though slightly better. For all
practical purposes, it was a blown up iPhone 4.

I suspect, given the general advancements and recent stability in Apple's ARM
SOCs, that this first generation of hardware will be good, though maybe a bit
underpowered compared to what people are used to with the Intel equivalent.
But not the practically beta level of those other devices.

~~~
jandrese
I wouldn't be surprised if the first generation ships with firmware issues.
The x86 emulator is also likely to be a source of friction. In the past when
Apple has switched architectures the new one is so much faster that even
emulated code see some benefit. That's not the case here, old x86 apps stand a
good chance of performing poorly and having issues. I wouldn't blame anyone
for holding off for a generation or two.

~~~
newscracker
_> The x86 emulator is also likely to be a source of friction. In the past
when Apple has switched architectures the new one is so much faster that even
emulated code see some benefit. That's not the case here, old x86 apps stand a
good chance of performing poorly and having issues._

This doesn’t match Apple’s claims and demos of performance of emulated x86
applications. I’d suggest you watch the WWDC 2020 keynote video for more on
this and take a look at the compute and graphics intensive x86 applications
they demonstrated running (emulated on Rosetta 2) on ARM hardware of
undisclosed specs.

~~~
jandrese
I'm taking those demos with a grain of salt personally. Historical precedent
suggests this is very difficult to get right.

------
anw
I would get one.

First, I generally would wait to see how the Apple Silicon laptops do in the
real world. I'm sure they will eventually be very great, but I wouldn't buy
the first generation just the same as I would not immediately upgrade to a new
version of OSX/macOS.

Let the bugs get worked out, let other vendors pick up their own support for
it, then take a look at if it's worth investing in.

Second, even if Apple drops all support tomorrow for their Intel line, you
still have a working setup that can take you through at least 3+ years of use
before needing an upgrade, including software (Brew, MacPorts). Your DAW won't
immediately stop working. SSH won't stop working. There are still companies
that let you download older versions of their software (Cubase, for instance).
If another big Heartbleed-like issue is found, get the update from HomeBrew
and set your PATH to use those binaries instead of the default ones.

Lastly, your Intel Mac is still a computer. You can install Linux or Windows
and get extra use out of it.

------
biztos
My company assigned me a 16" MBP with gobs of memory and all that. I am
sitting here right now with an _extremely_ light set of applications running,
CPU is 98% idle, I've got a 4K 27" monitor and the MacBook is in clamshell
mode. Plugged in and fully charged. Ambient temperature is 25C and CPU temp is
60C.

Both fans are running loud enough to notice: 2600RPM, about 27%, and that's
about average when it's not asleep. It's too loud to watch a quiet movie
without headphones.

If I had full control of my kit, I would seriously consider ditching the 16"
MBP in favor of a 27" iMac just in the hope that the cooling system isn't a
complete disaster.

As for the ARM question, I am very much looking forward to buying an ARM
Macbook Air (or whatever) for personal use.

But since I have no idea exactly when one will show up that does what I need;
and since I expect the Intel Macs to be supported for many years to come; and
since especially for a desktop it's also quite nice with other OS's; I
wouldn't hesitate to buy an Intel Mac if I needed one.

Just not the damned 16" MacBook Ventilator.

~~~
Rebelgecko
Even though opening the lid makes the GPU work harder, it typically is a win
in terms of cooling the laptop down. Also, try plugging in the power adapter
on the right side USB ports, that allegedly makes a difference in heat

~~~
biztos
The reason I started running it in clamshell mode, after years of keeping my
13" open, was the the GPU would massively overheat when running an external
monitor, so I'd have the fans running at well over 50% _all the time_ in that
case. Clamshell fixed it at the time.

Seems to play nicer with my other (Dell) monitor but when I was using Garage
Band (only on the external monitor!) it got so loud I had to quit GB and let
it cool down... and I still never went over about 20% CPU. The fans are pretty
normal when I _only_ use the built-in monitor, but the case still gets way too
hot to rest on my legs.

I'll try the right side power, thanks for the tip!

~~~
dotandgtfo
My 15 inch mbp 2019 got super hot when I ran the dock (with HDMI and keyboard)
on the same side as the charger. Having them on opposite sides helped loads
with the temperature. YMMV

~~~
biztos
Whoa... this seems to have done it. (I think.)

Thanks a lot for the tip! Funny, that's how I had it connected with the
previous monitor and I didn't have trouble with the clamshell mode.

FWIW right-side power didn't help, nor did the turbo switcher AFAICT (I'm not
doing anything CPU-intensive) -- but as soon as I put the monitor in the
_left_ and the power in the _right_ the fans dropped way down. Still running,
which is annoying, but not especially loud.

I find it maddening that a $3600 computer has a problem like this, and Apple
doesn't even tell you about it.

------
geuis
It’s a really straightforward decision.

\- Do you want/need a Mac? \- Can you afford the one you want?

People agonize over this way too much.

I did a few months ago. My trusty 2013 MBP finally was wearing out. I needed a
new MBP and the new 16in has rolled back some of the previously objectionable
changes (keyboard, restored escape key). I could afford it (but whew I’ll
admit that was a big number).

I only work on MacOS. I have a Windows desktop for games but despite the
hardware being high quality, I can’t ever be productive on a Windows
environment.

You just have to decide if you need it and buy it.

~~~
anw
> I only work on MacOS. I have a Windows desktop for games but despite the
> hardware being high quality, I can’t ever be productive on a Windows
> environment.

I have that same feeling.

At Uni we had to alternate between coding in SSH on Redhat machines for one
class, and writing .NET programs in other classes.

While both are workable, something just felt foreign about development or DB
management on Windows (even with great tools like Visual Studio).

I attribute this to knowing more about the inner workings of *nix compared to
Windows, where things such as registry, services, etc. felt more like black-
box magic compared to having config files, cron jobs, daemons, etc.

------
tmoaad
I wouldn't hesitate to buy a intel-based mac (hell, I bought a new MBP 16" not
but 3 months ago knowing about the ARM changes). My suggestion would be to
hold off on any ARM based mac-purchases (with a carve out for those that only
use their mac as a glorified chrome machine).

Apple gets many things right the first time around e.g many people ragged on
Apple's FaceID but I think it's pretty successful in the /mobile facial
recognition space/. We in the tech community are often reminded not to buy the
first-generation of anything due to the inherit bugs/issues/stability so it's
been very perplexing to me as to why people want to jump on being the first
movers for ARM based macs. I understand that Apple has moved from PPC to Intel
(and in under their two year goal) but that was a different Apple, different
organization, and different leadership.

------
adur1990
Thank you for all your replies.

One point I may have missed point out more clearly: The 6+ years I plan to use
this thing is also due to environmental considerations.

First, I am a big advocate of the right to repair. I think it is consumer-
friendly and more sustainable. One of my Apple Silicon concerns is, that the
new Macs won't be as repair-friendly as the current generation. MacBook are
already not repairable at all, I guess this trend will continue to the Desktop
lineup (except the Mac Pro maybe).

Second, almost all my devices eventually have a second live, sometimes even a
third live. My first MacBook (first white Intel MacBook) was used by my wife
for 3 years after I used it 5 years. Then the plastic body started to fall
apart, so I sold it on eBay for a decent price. My first Mac Mini (2,1) was
used for about 6 years. Then, I upgraded the 32-bit Core Duo CPU to a 64-bit
Core2Duo, got 4 GB RAM and a SSD. I patched EFI to support 64-bit OS and the
Mac Mini runs as a little home-server (Pi-Hole, Time Machine, Nextcloud). And
finally, my 2011 15" MacBook Pro still runs Catalina (thanks to DosDude's
Catalina Patcher tool). This is were currently my music production and
recording happens (yes, really!). This machine has still more juice than the
new 13" MBP.

So, the point is, however, I want run macOS as long as possible on this
machine and then give it a second live (what ever it will be then). And I'm
afraid this will be a problem because either a) (if I buy Intel) macOS will
drop support for Intel in 5-ish years or b) (if I wait for Apple Silicon) the
iMac won't be upgradable and everything glued and soldered to the max, which
also makes repairs impossible.

Do you have any thoughts on this matter?

And what I can read from your comments is a) Don't hesitate if you need/can
afford/can live with macOS and b) it's probably time to leave the Apple
ecosystem. Anyways, you gave good points to think about, thanks a lot!

------
mark_l_watson
I ordered the recently updated MacBook Air for my wife yesterday. Her old one
is over five years old and she uses it a lot, so it seemed like a no-brainer
refresh.

If it was for me, I would wait for the Apple Silicon. I use a three year old
MacBook, love it, and I was happy to hear that Apple may start selling that
form factor again with Apple Silicon.

I do most of my development on a remote VPS that is __much __more powerful
than my MacBook but I still do sometimes use IDEs so an iPad Pro or ChromeBook
won 't do it for me. I also have a System76 Linux laptop that is great.

------
artembugara
I would go for it unless you can wait for 3-4 years.

It will take time to understand how good silicon macbooks are.

So, 2 years to release, plus 1-2 years to understand how good it is, and how
fast all the apps will be fully migrated.

------
oblib
I think I'd wait for Apple to transition to their new CPU.

My first Mac was a Mac Plus. It was old when I bought it. My first new Mac was
PowerPC 6100. Then a G4 Mac. Both of those were pretty much obsoleted by Apple
so fast I had no choice but to purchase a new one, and then all the software I
used that wouldn't run on them, and some of it was never updated for use on
the new hardware.

I've been using a Mac Mini I bought new for $500 for the past 10 years. I was
kinda hoping Apple would release another in that price range but the last
update on those didn't have an option in that range. Perhaps the new ones
will, but considering their current plans I don't want to be put in the same
position I was when I bought that 6100 or the G4.

So I purchased a new Raspberry Pi 4 with 8GB of ram a couple weeks ago just in
case my old Mini bites the dust. Performance wise it's pretty close the Mini I
have now. The hardest part of moving to it is not being able to run BBEdit.
I've been using that for around 20 years and it's almost worth buying a new
Mac just for that. But the idea that a new Mac will likely be obsoleted in
just a couple years and I'll have purchase another new Mac again to keep using
it is a deal breaker for me right now.

------
jiveturkey
No hesitation: yes. Intel Macs will be supported for a long time to come,
easily for the next 6 years you cite. And you won't have to deal with 1st gen
ARM bugs. And you can use it now, not 1 or more years from now.

iMac is not upgradeable however. don't kid yourself.

> macOS will certainly not be supported for 6+ years (assuming a similar
> timeline as during the last transition).

Don't understand this at all. macOS will be supported forever. Did you miss a
word?

------
reacharavindh
Opinion:

Apple has indicated that ARM is where their future is. If you’re looking at
using the product for 6 years and can afford to wait a bit, I would wait for
the ARM ones. Even though the first generation may not be perfect. Based on
the past experiences, Apple is pretty good at making the hardware. Software
may take a bit to catch up, but the upside in performance and flexibility
could be very high.

------
jitendrac
I would not advise to buy the first generation Arm based MACs, because when
the underlying platform changes system must go through many unstable
iterations before getting optimal balance which I think will come after at
least 3rd generation of Arm-Macs. Intel macs are well matured for its eco
system, and as far as future concerns apple will support it for at least 3
years which may be short life for rather robust hardware.

So, I would advise you to go to third route, build a hackintosh system there
are some good website which lists well reviewed hackintosh builds like

[https://www.tonymacx86.com/buyersguide/building-a-
customac-h...](https://www.tonymacx86.com/buyersguide/building-a-customac-
hackintosh-the-ultimate-buyers-guide/)

give it a try, It will last for at least 5 years(may be 10). you can always
update it to run Linux or Windows in future when you buy a matured Arm based
iMac.

~~~
DenseComet
Don't build a hackintosh if you're depending on it for a living though. I'm
saying this while typing on a hackintosh. I've really enjoyed building it and
playing around with it. I love the power it has. However, there are lots of
small quirks that get annoying to deal with over time.

Having to read over multiple threads before updating, having to reset iCloud
passwords after triggering Apple's security checks, etc is not all that fun.
It ends up being more work than it seems upfront. I'm perfectly fine with it
as I'm a student with a lot of time, but its not for everyone.

~~~
silicon2401
how feasible/worth it would it be to build a hackintosh out of a regular PC? I
just built a PC and am trying to keep it as a kind of shell (nothing on it
that I can't easily replace, like steam games, etc), so I've considered
tinkering with it to make a hackintosh, if it's possible

~~~
dddw
Hackintosh is a normal pc. Check the aforementioned tonymac website.
Compatibility is quite finicky

------
allenu
I'm an macOS/iOS developer and I was on a 2013 13" MacBook Pro that was on its
last legs. I finally decided to just buy a current-gen replacement. I need
this machine to do day to day work and it was just dog slow (and battery
dying), so I didn't have too many options. I suppose I could've got a
replacement battery installed, but not sure if all the perf issues I
encountered would go away.

My reasoning was I need it now and I feel like I could still get a few years
out of it (Apple will likely support it even while moving to ARM).

------
sawaruna
I bought a new MacBook Pro a couple of months ago, just before the ARM
announcement even though it was rumoured. Like others have mentioned, I’m not
too keen on buying the first gen of the ARM laptops. If they or the second gem
are that appealing, the resale value of the one I bought should still be ok.

The only worry is, if you plan to keep it for a long time, how long will macOS
support the Intel line. I know Apple said they would, but iirc the PPC —>
Intel change caused the PPC macs to stop being supported after 2 years.

------
sliken
I have a i9 mbp bought a few months ago.. don't. Get the i5 or i7. The i9 is
expensive, gets impressively hot quickly under load, and makes the keyboard
too hot to use and makes a fair bit of noise.

Whatever the fraction of performance the i5/i7 is, anything that's cooler and
quieter is worth it and you don't likely notice the performance difference
anyways.

Numerous things cause the fan to run flat out, for example crashplan.

------
maz1b
Yes, I'd say so.

The ARM based iteration that Apple will ship will be good, potentially great
even, but it doesn't change the fact that it will be the first iteration.

Apple will be supporting Intel for at least a couple of yeas, seeing as they
just introduced the most beefy MBP 16 inch and the refreshed iMac and iMac Pro
along with the Mac Pro.

------
SomeHacker44
My personal solution is to stop buying Apple altogether. Unless you need a Mac
(i.e., you do Apple specific development), you have a much broader set of
choices. If you can wean yourself off Logic (try Live, perhaps) then you can
get better hardware at lower prices. Just my opinion.

~~~
theodric
Linux is terrible on the desktop and Windows can go die in a fire. Looks like
Apple gets my money!

~~~
dencodev
I'm a life long Windows user and fan and I recently bought a Macbook Air and
love it. It's so much better than the $1800 windows laptop I've had for the
past two years. Granted the windows laptop is for gaming and they're very
different devices.

------
runjake
I have an ARM DTK, and 3 weeks after, bought a 16" MBP.

Everything works, I can virtualize any OS I want.

No regrets.

That said, if you don't need to buy now, then don't -- especially when it
comes to Apple gear.

------
rurban
So you'll get two problems. #1 Intel + #2 Mac.

Much better would be to solve both problems by buying a good and 2x cheaper
and 3x faster AMD laptop with Linux. Like a Lenovo.

------
room271
I think you should wait if you can. See what the new ARM macs are like. If
they're good buy one, else get an Intel one then. It's only a few months.

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csense
No. Buy a PC and install Linux.

~~~
smallstepforman
You mis-spelled Haiku ;)

~~~
dddw
:)

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theodric
No

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sixothree
If you want more than 5 years out of this machine I would not. Just a personal
opinion.

