
DRM for chargers? Google Pixel 3 locks fast Qi charging to its own stand - extraterra
https://arstechnica.com/?p=1398545
======
rishabhsagar
The explanation of “This is to protect batteries from sub par quality
chargers” is not particularly convincing to me. As a user, wouldn’t that be my
call? Shouldn’t providing a safe charging be a charger manufacturer’s
responsibility? Why is Pixel deciding to not accept charging at 10w from
‘unknown’ charging device? At best I can see the argument for not supporting
charging from insecurely designed charger on the account of warranty, but even
then I think it should be consumers call as to what device they are using to
charge their phones and phone should at most warn me about unsafe chargers,
rather than outright refusing to charge at full potential speed.

~~~
reaperducer
_Shouldn’t providing a safe charging be a charger manufacturer’s
responsibility?_

Have you _seen_ the manufacturing quality of some of the chargers out there? I
wouldn't be surprised if this wasn't an effort by Google to prevent a long
series of "Google phones explode into flames!" clickbait headlines when ultra-
cheap knock-off charging pads start showing up at flea markets.

~~~
rgbrenner
This is pure FUD. I don't know how you think wireless charging works, but it
doesn't send current directly into the battery. The charge is received by an
antenna in the phone, and the same protections that protect it from
overcharging when you plug it into an outlet apply to wireless charging too.
You just replaced a cord with the antenna.

If you can damage the phone that way, then the phone is defective.

~~~
vlovich123
That's not how standards work. If a cable or charging block is out-of-spec it
can easily pose HW damage risks or fire hazards. It's impossible to consider
every possible way this stuff can be broken.

Take for example [https://gizmodo.com/a-google-engineer-is-publicly-shaming-
cr...](https://gizmodo.com/a-google-engineer-is-publicly-shaming-crappy-usb-c-
cabl-1742719818)

OnePlus USB-C cables work fine with OnePlus devices but can damage any other
USB-C device.

Another example where a USB-C cable destroyed his USB PD analyzer & his
chromebook ports:
[https://www.amazon.com/review/R2XDBFUD9CTN2R](https://www.amazon.com/review/R2XDBFUD9CTN2R)

This was because the cable was completely miswired.

There's also numerous reports out there of how crappy charging blocks are fire
hazards if driven at the full level they advertise.

[https://globalnews.ca/news/3365247/electronic-charging-
devic...](https://globalnews.ca/news/3365247/electronic-charging-devices-
cables-pose-fire-risk/)

It's not totally unreasonable for a responsible manufacturer to either
outright ban charging from unknown blocks/cables or to fallback to a trickle
charge that disabled the highest-speed charging.

Since there's so many the only way to do this is to maintain a whitelist of
good chargers at the expense of fast charge not working with an arbitrary
number of chargers. You could think "well, just warn the user & give them a
choice." However, the majority of users would just learn that most of the time
it's OK & just hit "OK" blindly even when connecting to new chargers they
don't know about. Also the news reporting would still be the same & wouldn't
capture the nuance of using a third-party charger since news cycles are more
instant & don't allow the necessary amount of time for engineers to receive
the unit & perform diagnostics to figure out what happened.

~~~
shittyadmin
> Another example where a USB-C cable destroyed his USB PD analyzer & his
> chromebook ports

That sounds to me more like a shitty design on both of those.

Short of sending hundreds of volts and causing arcing, this should be
preventable, should it not?

~~~
Arnt
That cable supplied voltage on the ground line. Quite some WTF factor on that,
but also difficult to protect against.

~~~
zaarn
You can protect against reverse voltage, ie, voltage from the ground line.

A simple diode is the easiest way, using various power MOSFETs can reduce the
voltage drop induced and you can even build a circuit that allows charging the
battery and supplying power on the same connectors while also protecting
against reverse voltage.

It's neither hard nor expensive.

~~~
Arnt
TIL.

Are you saying that it's possible to protect against all kinds of shenanigans
on the ground line even if the device has no other ground, or only against
negative voltage?

~~~
zaarn
There is only reverse voltage and over voltage.

Ground is basically your reference, if your ground has potential above your
voltage input, you're in reverse voltage, if your ground is too far below your
voltage input, then you're in over voltage.

Both can be detected and prevented from causing damage via various means on
both sides of the usb plug.

Overvoltage can usually be solved by having a Zener diode within acceptable
overvoltage short the thing to ground and blow out a fuse, this will cut the
circuit and prevent further damage.

I recommend this video from GreatScott:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Tk5ghH_U2s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Tk5ghH_U2s)

------
neil_s
Given the update, isn't it pretty clear that this article is nothing but FUD?

The general standard, Qi, only supports charging at 5W. Pixels support this
standard perfectly.

Google also made an adapted standard that charges at 10W. Chargers need to
pass certain tests to prove they can implement this charging standard
correctly. Once certified, then they can charge Pixels faster using this
standard. There is plenty of evidence quoted by others of how shoddily
implemented aftermarket chargers can damage phones.

I'm not an expert in wireless charging technologies so please correct me if I
got something wrong.

~~~
calcifer
> The general standard, Qi, only supports charging at 5W.

This is false. Only the low power Qi standard is 5W. Medium power is up to
120W and there is talk of a high power mode up to 1kW.

~~~
askvictor
Given that medium power is designed for laptops and monitors and such, it
would be safe to presume the size and weight of that spec wouldn't be
applicable to phone applications. So, the Qi spec applicable to phones only
supports 5W.

------
LiterallyDoge
Is anyone else not impressed with modern phones? They all seem like the same
as last year but with more arbitrary restrictions and a higher price tag.

~~~
JustSomeNobody
I have a 6S that, while it's running fine, I would like to upgrade for a
better camera. But, I want to keep the same size. So, my options are to get a
year old 8 or a XS. The XR and XS Max are too large. I really don't want to
spend $1000 on a phone. That's absurd to me. I'll probably end up waiting
another year.

I've ruled out Android out of personal preference. Not an endorsement of iOS
or a condemnation of Android. Just preference.

~~~
LiterallyDoge
It would be very cool to have an OS option that isn't from one of these two
brands. Neither seem to be very respectful of the customer, Google for its
privacy practices, and Apple is just so heavy-handed it's hard to take them
seriously when they say they care about the user.

~~~
Angostura
Except of course iOS 12 has made my old 6 run like new

------
chadlavi
I have an iPhone X, and use an inexpensive Samsung Qi charger. It doesn't do
the fast charge, but I also only ever charge my phone at night. It's sitting
there for 8ish hours anyway, so the fact that it takes like, maybe two hours
to charge is a non-issue.

I imagine many Pixel 3 owners will experience the same thing. A wireless
charging pad is pretty naturally a "leave it sitting there overnight" spot.
Doesn't really matter that it doesn't do the fast one.

~~~
seanp2k2
I actually prefer a slower charge since it helps the battery last longer. I
wish that the charging speed was software-configurable. I also have a samsung
Qi charger on my desk, with another by my bed. They slow charge my iPhone, but
if I need a quick boost because I’m going back out, I’ll plug it in to an
Anker charger. It’d be great if one could do it all: slow charging overnight,
with faster charging in the off-hours - it could even be automatic based on
what it thinks you want (and learn your habits over time), with a software
override.

~~~
Rebelgecko
You're on an iPhone so I suppose this doesn't help you much, but on my
(Samsung) Android phone it's possible to use a program like Tasker to
programmatically toggle fast charging based on location, time of day, current
battery level, etc.

------
thrower123
For a few shining years, you could basically charge any device with a micro-
USB cord. I guess we're going back to having a culch drawer full of one-off
proprietary connectors.

~~~
delecti
Which years were those? Mini-USB didn't die out quite quickly enough to make
room for Micro-USB before USB-C came onto the scene, so I've had to have at
least 2 of those 3 for most of the past decade. My entertainment center
currently has to deal with all three, and I have to deal with Micro and C just
about everywhere else (most things are Micro except my phone which is C). I
think this is a bit of a rose colored look back on things.

~~~
AdmiralAsshat
2011-2016ish. I had the following devices, all of which could be charged by
micro-USB:

\- HP Touchpad

\- Samsung Galaxy SII

\- HTC One (M7)

\- Nexus 7 (2013)

\- HTC One M9

Some had quick charge, some didn't, some could be charged wirelessly via
proprietary or Qi standards, but they all could fall back on Micro-USB when
they needed to.

Now I'm on a GS8, which means I need a USB-C cable and a micro-USB to keep my
phone and tablet charged, but luckily they both support Qi charging, so I can
usually get away with just tossing the wireless charger pad into my bag and be
good for the day.

~~~
plopz
I'm always amazed at how many devices people seem to have. I got a Samsung
Galaxy Nexus in 2011 and just replaced it with a Moto G5 Plus in 2017. Both
have micro-USB.

~~~
AdmiralAsshat
Not so much when you look at them as a progression:

GS II -> HTC One M7 -> HTC One M9 -> GS8

HP Touchpad -> Nexus 7

If I had been able to unlock the bootloader on either of my HTC devices, I'd
probably still be using them with a custom ROM of some kind. But that's
Verizon for you...

------
xg15
> _Google got back to us. The Pixel 3 does not support 10W Qi charging at all.
> It supports 10W wireless charging, and it supports the Qi wireless charging
> standard, but these are two different things. Qi is capped at 5W, and for
> 10W wireless charging, you need a charger with what Belkin calls "Google's
> 10W proprietary wireless charging technology."

Google says it is "certifying" chargers for the Pixel 3 via the "Made for
Google" program..._

Isn't this almost a textbook example of "embrace, extend, extinguish"?

------
klohto
Locking chargers doesn't seem like kind of a thing EU would approve.
Considering their stand on unifying all chargers.

Let's see how this plays out.

~~~
rando444
It's not locking out other chargers, just the fast charging feature.

Poorly implemented fast charging can ruin your phone's battery quicker than
most anything else, so really the issue here is would you rather have google
try and help protect your hardware or are you ok with taking the risk that all
of the cheap chinese chargers you come across aren't going to damage your
phone.

~~~
Aaargh20318
> Poorly implemented fast charging can ruin your phone's battery quicker than
> most anything else

But isn't the charger basically just a power supply for the phone ? i.e. the
actual charging is done by the phone itself, not the charger.

~~~
lostmyoldone
In any cae, the charger definitely should only be a PSU. Current, voltage, and
temperature during charging should be completely managed by the phone
hardware. Otherwise a defective charger can easily destroy the battery, and
potentially also your house.

If I'd hazard a guess - assuming it's not only greed - they are either
offloading part of that work to the charger for a smaller bill of materials
for the phone, or the charger is part of the thermal design.

The higher current for fast charging might generate more heat than the body of
the phone can get rid of on its own, and the stand could be engineered to cool
down the phone. Almost all cordless power tool chargers have some kind of fan
that connects to battery pack cooling ducts to prevent it from overheating
during changing.

~~~
gargravarr
I'd say the heat generation is the biggest factor in fast charging wearing out
the battery - lithium batteries do not like heat, and base Qi generates quite
a lot of it (have a Qi charger for my Galaxy S5). Can only imagine the fun you
run into trying to pump more current through them without melting the phone.

Google may well be doing this because they can't guarantee cooling on the
third-party stands, and would have to throttle the charge rate when the phone
started to overheat. Guess they might be pre-empting it.

------
legohead
So if Google has some standard that has to be met, can't they just make it
public and let the third party companies get certified? Or sign some kind of
agreement that they promise to adhere to the standards.. something

~~~
vlovich123
The problem isn't a question of standardizing it. The problem is that there
needs to be a process for independently validating that the products adhere to
the standard. There's a huge problem with poor quality/counterfeit chargers &
they pose fire risks. No amount of documents solve that problem. Just good old
testing of the product itself which is time-consuming & more expensive.

------
ascagnel_
I wonder if we'll see more of this from device OEMs, if only to protect
against things like iffy USB-C and Qi chargers that don't conform to
standards.

Standard Qi chargers don't put out enough power/heat to cause lasting issues,
but a fast charger could. Similarly, Google's already seen major issues first-
hand from an off-spec USB-C cable [0].

[0] [https://www.engadget.com/2016/02/03/benson-leung-
chromebook-...](https://www.engadget.com/2016/02/03/benson-leung-chromebook-
pixel-usb-type-c-test/)

~~~
ConceptJunkie
If only there were an organization that could test and certify that these
products adhere to the standards...

~~~
Fej
Too many counterfeits. The solution is basically what Apple did: put MFi chips
in everything to ensure the valuable hardware isn't damaged, and lock down who
can get the chips. Obviously this is very difficult for a standards body.

------
andr
It's also disappointing that while Pixel 3 supports USB-PD, which is forward
looking, it has no support for older protocols, even conventional 2.4A USB
charging. I tried charging one with my car USB port and it the charging rate
was lower than the power consumption, so it died after a few hours of
navigation.

There are tons of conventional chargers out in the world (card, hotels and
airports, power banks, etc.) and it's stupid to deprecate them, especially
given that the Snapdragon inside actually supports those.

~~~
dstaley
As far as I can tell, there's no such thing as "conventional 2.4A USB
charging". The USB 2 spec limits power output to 5v, 900 mA. USB 3 has the
Battery Charging Specification that allows up to 1.5 A. I think you might be
thinking of Qualcomm Quick Charge?

~~~
ianburrell
The USB Battery Charging spec is separate from USB3. The 1.5A is the minimum
available current for charging port; the max is 5A. But the limit for legacy
USB cables is 2.4A.

------
theshrike79
Just imagine the shitstorm if it was s/Google Pixel 3/Apple iPhone/

The amount of angry tweets and 10+ minute long YouTube rants (for the
monetization) would break the internet.

------
maxxxxx
Pretty sad to see where things are going. Computing started with everything
being proprietary, then from the 80s on you saw wide open systems and
standards developed. And I think standards are what enabled the rapid growth
of the industry and the internet. And now the big players are trying to revert
and make everything proprietary again. No standard protocols, hardware that
barely can be opened or repaired.

~~~
r00fus
Think of patents unrestrained (thanks to some really bad jurisprudence in the
90s and beyond) as the antithesis of open standards.

------
stephengillie
This adds to the list of reasons why I won't be getting a Pixel 3. Other
reasons include the notch on the screen, the glass on the back, and the
reduced efficacy of autocorrect.

I'm using a Pixel 2 currently, and the back is heavily cracked because I am
clumsy and drop it often. Who puts glass on the _back_ of the phone and why?

~~~
falcrist
I'm definitely with you about the whole glass-back issue. I know people like
wireless charging, but glass isn't the only option.

Can we please go back to plastic? It was lighter and far more impact
resistant.

Also, can I just have a rectangular screen? I don't need it to be curved or
have rounded edges. I'm ok with a chin and/or forehead bezel. No notch,
though.

Not to mention headphone jacks, removable batteries, and physical buttons.

------
officialchicken
Either google doesn't know how to implement the Qi standard[0], the wireless
power consortium compatibility tests are complete garbage[also 0], and/or they
have discovered a known defect and are trying to work around in order to
prevent another airplane-fire recall kind of situation (highly unlikely, if
true). I hope that Qi pulls their licence for this move, but I doubt it.

[0][https://www.wirelesspowerconsortium.com/products/details/482...](https://www.wirelesspowerconsortium.com/products/details/4826/pixel-3)

~~~
vlovich123
I believe 10w charging is a non-standard extension to Qi. QC & Apple have
competing implementations & I'm not clear what version Pixel is using. Apple
definitely also restricts 10w charging to MFI-certified 3P chargers. If Google
doesn't enable validated 3P chargers that would be a shame.

~~~
writtenabode
You can actually read the specification here:
[https://www.wirelesspowerconsortium.com/downloads/download-w...](https://www.wirelesspowerconsortium.com/downloads/download-
wireless-power-specification.html)

As of at least 1.2.2 (April 2016) the Qi spec has supported 15 W through an
Extended Power Profile

 _A Baseline Power Profile supporting transfer of up to about 5 W and an
Extended Power Profile supporting transfer of up to about 15 W of power using
an appropriate Secondary Coil (having a typical outer dimension of around 40
mm)._

------
a-dub
eh, they don't strike me as a company where some marketing doofus pushed this
through to try and make an extra buck.

seems more likely that they wanted to see how far they could push the wattage
and in doing so they found some pretty tight tolerances with respect to safety
and reliability so they took care to ensure that it would only work in the
tested configuration.

at the end of the day, it still supports the standard. would be nice to see
them try to push the standard forward, which they still very well may do.

------
j45
2 deflating thoughts;

\- Qi has always been a slow charge thing in my books. If that's changed, the
specifications for the Qi charger required could very clearly be listed, and
the Pixel could track the specs of the power coming in at some level I'd hope.

\- If sub-par quality QI chargers are a potential hazard, I would say sub-par
AC chargers are a far larger hazard from installed footprint. That lock-in
would have happened a long time ago if it would have been tolerated by Apple
and Google.

Someone will likely find a workaround.

~~~
vlovich123
Apple does disable 3rd party chargers that haven't been certified, at least
for high-power charging.

~~~
j45
Fair point, I meant iPhone charging can happen from third party USB power
sources, and should have been clear.

------
kazinator
> _but it 's hard to imagine a justification for this._

There are dubious chargers out there that are outright unsafe. It is in no way
hard to imagine the argument that don't want to pull 10W through some no-name
made-in-China piece of crap you got from Amazon that will burn your house
down, because it wasn't even tested at 5W.

------
throwaway_45
This seems something apple like. I think Google is pretty evil now. The
company needs to be replaced.

~~~
SketchySeaBeast
Are the Pixels actually that popular? I feel like another company (Samsung,
LG) could corner the market on the "pure android" phone and have a better
product. I'm surprised Google feels so confident with it's mediocre and
overpriced phones.

~~~
TheAdamist
on time patches, a superior camera, there are a few reasons to get a pixel.

9 month off product cycle from other android manufacturer means a cpu that
will be a generation behind in 3 months when the next samsung, etc release
though. As well as other drawbacks.

~~~
SketchySeaBeast
That's why I was saying that that they need to get onto Android base - then
the only thing will be the camera, which to be fair, Google is really great
at.

------
spacecase-25
Is there anything about the Pixel 3 that doesn't suck?

------
samgranieri
This probably won't fly...

~~~
Skunkleton
I can tell you that is at least literally true.

------
rajacombinator
Shocking that Apple hasn’t pulled this BS yet. I guess next model we’ll see
it.

------
alinspired
google playing by apple's book to extract revenues, one more nail in "don't be
evil" coffin

------
etaioinshrdlu
Qi is the most disgusting over-complicated protocol ever.

------
vfclists
Complain to Margrethe Vestager.

Google bosses tremble in their boots whenever they see blue stockings.

------
exabrial
No headphone jack? Can't use the fast charger that came in my vehicle? Nope
and Nope.

Buy the LG v35 or v40. These phones have a headphone jack, has an OLED screen,
is waterproof, has an SD card slot, works on Project Fi, and if you've ever
dealt with LG customer support, they're great. The v35 has a 'normal' lens and
a 'wide angle' camera, and the v40 has both of those plus a telephoto. The
Pixel2's portrait mode was abysmal compared to the offerings from Apple, but
LG's portrait mode absolutely stomps both the pixel and iphone. There's no
reason to buy a pixel.

~~~
romwell
Also Moto G6 / Nokia 7 are pretty strong contenders in the $300-something no-
bullshit phone segment with dual lens (I'm very happy about my G5+ camera's
depth simulation - and my main shooter is a Fuji X100 with F2.0 lens on an
APSC sensor, so care about that!).

