

Best Buy Optimization Is A Big Stupid Annoying Waste Of Money - madh
http://consumerist.com/2010/01/consumerist-investigation-best-buy-optimization-is-a-big-stupid-annoying-waste-of-money.html

======
thaumaturgy
The Consumerist (and Best Buy) got some stuff right, and some wrong, IMO. Just
for background info, I'm the founder of a rapidly growing I.T. consulting
company, with both individual, small business, and corporate clients.

1: Laptops and vendor computers certainly could use a thorough going-over when
they're unboxed. Of the various vendors, Dell is the least offensive this way,
and Acer is one of the worst.

1a: Most vendors are installing various Norton or Symantec products by
default, one of the worst anti-virus products available on the market.
Norton's actual catch rating is -- literally -- only about 50%, and to get
even that high, it has measurable negative impacts on system performance.
Notably, it has a pernicious bug in its email scanner that can cause it,
spontaneously, to interrupt email service several months down the road.
Removing Norton is not as easy as you might think. Inexplicably, the removal
process varies from system to system. On one memorable system, it took me two
hours to remove it; its own uninstaller crashed every time, refusing to
uninstall anything, my copy of the special Norton Removal Tool that can be
downloaded was "out of date" (I had downloaded it just three weeks before),
and the Norton website was broken and wouldn't allow me to download a new
copy. The computer would not reboot into safe mode -- upon starting in safe
mode it would reboot back to normal -- and initial attempts at manual removal
caused the program to reload its files upon reboot. Despite having a fully
updated version of Norton, the computer was riddled with viruses and other
garbage.

1b: The "cleanup" is not something I'd recommend for the average user -- and
I'm all for teaching users how to use their computer. Unfortunately, it's
gotten very hard to tell what to keep from what to throw away. There are no
clues other than experience. For example: Dell's moronic "wireless manager"
can't be uninstalled without taking the laptop's wireless drivers with it, but
there's a way to disable it and let Windows handle the wireless interface,
which is more reliable and reduces clutter in the system tray.

2: Where Consumer Reports found a decrease in system speed, it's likely that
"Geek Squad" accidentally removed one of the manufacturer's OS updates.

3: _If_ the "cleanup" was done right, and _if_ it was truly optional, $40 is a
really fair price for it. Even if we assume that they've got some in-house
tools that automate this, the process would likely still take at least 20
minutes and require oversight by a skilled technician. Part of my business is
about kicking Geek Squad in the pants every chance I get, but I doubt I could
beat that price.

4: There are some system tweaks that can really help things along, that
wouldn't show up on a benchmark. One that comes to mind immediately is the
particularly stupid network-related services configuration in Vista. The
services aren't started automatically, so for dialup users especially this
means a very long wait time every time the user opens up Internet Explorer for
the first time.

5: Sending users to "msconfig" without directions was a particularly stupid
move by Consumerist. The registry at least looks scary enough to ward off most
novices, but msconfig makes things really easy to change -- and can result in
very strange system behavior.

6: I have not been impressed by CCleaner, nor does PC Decrapifier do a very
good job of cleaning up a new system. CCleaner has given me some work in the
past in the form of newly unreliable printer behavior, and we tried using PC
Decrapifier for a while before concluding that we could actually do the job
much faster manually.

7: Spybot Search & Destroy is really not that great as a preventative program.
Avira (<http://free-av.com/>) is a much better piece of software, also free,
although the free version has two annoying habits which can be disabled
easily.

So, should new systems be "optimized" by trained techs working for a company
that actually cares about its customers? Hell yes. Unfortunately, neither Best
Buy nor Geek Squad got it right.

~~~
billybob
So it works like this?:

1) Crapware makers pay PC makers to pre-load their crapware<br/> 2) PC makers
use (some of) the money to reduce their selling price<br/> 3) Best Buy removes
(some of) the crapware and increases the price again

Why not just sell a computer with a clean OS? Why on earth should a brand new
machine need work?

I'm not knocking your services, thaumaturgy, just saying it shouldn't be
necessary to optimize a new machine.

~~~
thaumaturgy
I agree with you 100%.

If the computer industry really put its customers needs first, I wouldn't have
this job.

And that would be OK by me.

------
RyanMcGreal
>she was told installing software yourself, "negates the vendor’s warranty."

Wait, installing software on a laptop negates the vendor's warranty? I thought
the _whole point_ of owning a general purpose computer rather than, say, some
embedded device was the flexibility to install (and write) whatever programs
you want.

~~~
stanleydrew
This is why it shocks me that iPhone owners willingly give up this flexibility
and even defend Apple for taking it away from them. I know it's not exactly a
general purpose computer but it's pretty close.

~~~
derefr
I never intended to buy another general-purpose computer when I got an iPhone.
I'm already responsible for tech support on enough devices--having Apple be
root on one of my boxes, instead of me, is somewhat a relief, and I'd actually
accept them extending that service to full-form-factor computers for people
who ask for such a service.

Note that people can still be root on their iPhones if they wish--it's just
not a _supported_ configuration, because, unlike with a computer, "supporting"
a phone has different connotations and more implied responsibilities for a
company. Apple has never actively tried to stop people from jailbreaking their
phones, they've just tried to stop people from blaming anything that happens
after they do on them. It's like blaming a theme park for injuries you sustain
if you blowtorch the restraining bars off yourself and jump from the ride when
you're 50 feet in the air.

~~~
stanleydrew
_Apple has never actively tried to stop people from jailbreaking their
phones..._

Doesn't jailbreaking void your warranty? And then there's this quote: _Every
iPhone update from iTunes disables Jailbreak. Every time Apple comes out with
an update for iPhone, they find a way to prevent hackers from cracking the
code again. Hackers then scramble to Jailbreak the iPhone again and release
the new methods. That means if you like to download Apple’s iPhone updates,
you are going to have to figure out each time how to Jailbreak your iPhone yes
again. Do you really want to play this cat and mouse game?_
[http://www.appleiphonereview.com/iphone-tutorials/iphone-
jai...](http://www.appleiphonereview.com/iphone-tutorials/iphone-jailbreak/)

And this: [http://consumerist.com/2009/07/apple-argues-jailbreaking-
iph...](http://consumerist.com/2009/07/apple-argues-jailbreaking-iphones-can-
lead-to-terrorism.html)

------
gvb
Oddly, in their table, Consumer's Reports did not list Microsoft's own free
antivirus program (they _did_ list Windows Defender anti-spyware).

<http://www.microsoft.com/Security_Essentials/>

~~~
assemble
I've been using this since it came out. It's fast, and seems to work very
well. It doesn't get in the way and irritate me like AVG, Avast and the other
free ones. I've been extremely pleased with it.

------
protomyth
So, let's say you are a manufacturer. You take money from all these software
products and install their wares on your computers. Margins are tight, and
this seems the only way to make a profit. Let's also say you are one of the
brands sold at Best Buy.

At some point, isn't one of the software providers going to want their money
back from Best Buy sales since Best Buy is removing their "advertising"?

~~~
zck
Only because the advertisers will complain, and because it's a reason to get a
mac [1]. Say Best Buy removed the crapware ads for free, and the advertisers
didn't complain. I'm sure Dell couldn't care less, as it's actually a better
experience for the user.

[1] As far as I know, no one offers "optimization" on a mac, so buying one is
less annoying. EDIT: this is wrong:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1032781>

------
zzzmarcus
To me, this seems like another reason to buy a Mac. It'll cost you more than
the PC (even after optimization) but you don't have to deal with either the
mysterious optimizations or uninstalling a bunch of promotional garbage and
running endless updates. With the Mac, you open your computer, run Software
Update once and you're good to go. In my opinion, that alone justifies the
higher price.

------
KWD
Great article, and it really lowers my opinion of Best Buy. I couldn't help
but think of the auto rustproofing sales pitch when buying a new car.

Another benefit to the article, I think the bottom section listing programs to
"optimize" the PC is useful. Only thing I would have added is that cable/dsl
internet services these days are likely to provide a free anti-virus from
McAfee.

------
jasonlbaptiste
Does anyone make a "good PC" anymore? I know many will answer just build it
yourself. That's a worthy answer for me, but not for the general public. If my
mom wants to buy a PC tomorrow that isn't cluttered with crap (just an OEM
install), offers great service, and looks great, what does she buy?

~~~
ams6110
You could always boot straight into a Windows install CD and blow away the
vendor's OS install entirely. The problem with doing that, is that often
(particularly on laptops) you need a bunch of special purpose drivers to get
everything working. Finding and downloading these can be a hassle.

~~~
jrockway
I doubt this is true anymore. Centrino is well-standardized (and what other
laptop platform is there?), and Windows 7 is not as outdated as XP with
respect to hardware support. Maybe if you saved fifty cents by getting "Dell
Wireless" instead of the Intel chipset, you'll have problems... but I don't
know anyone who does that. (Even Dell's site tries to talk you out of it.)

I have never used a machine with the default OS install on it, and I have
never had any hardware support problems. (And this includes my XP machines at
work. Definitely not the default HP Windows install, but the hardware works
fine nonetheless.)

------
troymc
Best Buy also sells Apple computers (MacBooks, iMacs, etc.). Does anyone here
know if they try to sell "optimized" versions of those as well?

~~~
nollidge
[http://consumerist.com/2010/01/shocking-best-buys-mac-
optimi...](http://consumerist.com/2010/01/shocking-best-buys-mac-optimization-
sucks-also.html)

------
matthavener
There's some truth to this "optimization" stuff: most of the low end computers
these days come with all kinds of trial software installed (presumably for
marketing purposes). Usually I'll spend 20 minutes removing it all after the
initial setup. Its probably worth $20 to have it removed if you don't know how
to remove it yourself.

~~~
psadauskas
Just run the PC decrapifier: <http://www.pcdecrapifier.com/> and go get a cup
of coffee.

------
dspeyer
Let's be fair. 3dmark is a horrible way to test if cleanup helped. It's mostly
gpu limited, and that tends to be unaffected by OEM crap. Rendering a complex
webpage, launching an office suite, or watching high-def flash video would be
more useful tests.

I am not volunteering to do these tests.

------
fnid
is there a reasonable way to build ones own laptop these days?

~~~
jrockway
No, but it is easy to pop in the OS install disk of your choice and blow away
whatever crap came with the default install. (That's all this article is
talking about.)

Most laptops have fine hardware, it's just that the default Windows installs
come with a lot of ads to keep the price low (or more likely, the profit
margin higher). Save yourself the trouble and delete the ads before they even
get the chance to be executed.

~~~
thaumaturgy
Dell laptops and desktops are tricky to do this with if you're installing
Windows, because -- for some dumb reason -- the Dell hardware is simply
crippled without the pack of model-specific drivers installed.

On some units, you even lose ethernet, so you're not only stuck with a
horrible screen resolution until you fix it, but you also have to load the
drivers on via usb.

And finally: I don't know of a manufacturer right now that provides you with a
real actual Windows disk when you buy your computer. You generally get instead
an OEM "reinstall" disk which puts all that wonderful crap back on your
system.

I really really wish Linux could get a serious hold on the consumer market.

~~~
jrockway
_I really really wish Linux could get a serious hold on the consumer market._

So then Linux machines would ship with a ton of crapware too?

~~~
thaumaturgy
If they did, the problem could be solved by installing your own free Linux
distribution.

This is not the case with Windows, which was the point.

------
waterlesscloud
I have walked into a Best Buy, ready to make a computer purchase on the spot.

And then walked out because I could not buy what I wanted without their
"optimizations".

I simply will not deal with retailers who do this.

------
mattmaroon
Wait, people buy computers at Best Buy still? What year is this?

~~~
og1
I've noticed when they run their specials on laptops the prices can run lower
than the online only retailers. Not always the case though.

~~~
jrockway
Never noticed this. The only time I buy from Best Buy is when I am truly
desperate; buying from Amazon with overnight shipping is always cheaper, and
there is much better selection.

~~~
mattmaroon
Lack of sales tax alone is hard to compete with when it comes to electronics.

~~~
jrockway
That is really the least of my concerns. It's just that Best Buy only tends to
sell the very lowest of the low-end stuff, but marks it up to high-end prices.

This is true of almost all retail stores, which is why I pretty much only shop
online now. The brick-and-mortar stores want to blame sales tax or too-low
online prices for their woes, but the reality is that they only sell crap.
Most people do not want to buy crap, and don't. As a result, the brick-and-
mortar stores that only sell crap are not doing too well compared to the
online stores that sell things people actually want to buy.

(Notice how Apple's retail stores do fine. This is because they actually sell
good products.)

~~~
mattmaroon
That's not true. Best Buy sells plenty of quality merchandise. They've got the
same TVs, digital cameras, etc. you'd find highly recommended on Amazon or
anywhere else. Their Xbox 360 is no more failure prone than anyone else's.

Their computers range the gamut, but so does Dell.com. Most Best Buys now even
have an extensive selection of Macs on their own wooden table. They've got
every mp3 player worth considering (and many not). I bought my Diamond Rio
there back in what must have been 98 or 99.

Amazon sells most electronics for about the same price as them. I just looked
for my camera, the Cannon Powershot. $149 for the newer model at both places.
(Perhaps time for me to upgrade).

It's really the sales tax that ruins the business case for shopping there. A
copy of Halo is $3 more at Best Buy, and I have to wait in line. When my
business bought a Macbook, we saved $100 buying it from Amazon. I could have
gotten the same thing off the shelf at Best Buy or an Apple Store, but why pay
extra?

And the computers I wouldn't buy there due to lack of customizability, which
was the original point of the comment. Even my dad just orders them off the
net because of that.

------
gcb
free advice for bestbuy.

1\. go to ubuntu.com 2\. order a zillion live install cds. 3\. give one to
every consumer that buys a pc or mac. 4\. be able to claim performance and
virus free optimization without consumerist eating them alive.

