
London black taxis plan congestion chaos to block Uber - sp8
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-27317164
======
casca
The Black Cabs in London have a long-standing monopoly on picking people up on
the street and providing a metered journey. This is mandated by law. To become
a black cab (not always black in colour) driver, it is necessary to take an
advanced test called The Knowledge where you are expected to know every London
street and landmark along with best routes based on random street closures. It
takes about 3 years to study for The Knowledge and there is evidence[1] that
they have increased brain size as a result of memorizing all that information.

The other option for people wanting a car journey is the "mini-cab" which can
be booked to collect from any specific location but must offer a fare in
advance of the journey. In order to transport people for money, mini-cab
drivers are licensed and have a background check done.

Uber drivers in London must have the mini-cab license so this is a question
around the black cab monopoly. As with any government-provided monopoly, the
incumbents are keen to maintain the status quo while the newcomers are
fighting for change. Any advances that Uber makes will benefit all mini-cab
companies and most importantly, passengers.

[1]
[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/677048.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/677048.stm)

~~~
jgrahamc
One of the key benefits of The Knowledge is that I can jump in a black cab in
London and say "Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons" and have a driver who
can instantly decide which way to go...

1\. Without asking for any clarification

2\. Without typing a bunch of stuff into a GPS device

3\. And with knowledge of time/space specific optimizations

Yes, black cabs are not cheap. You are getting a very specific service for
that money.

~~~
prof_hobart
What if you don't want to pay for that specific service? I got a taxi home
(not in London) last week and the taxi driver used his sat nav to route me
home. It didn't bother me in the slightest.

Pretty much all I ask for in a taxi is get me from where I am to where I want
to go, as quickly, cheaply and safely as possible. I'm not against people
being licenced (that comes into the "safely" bit of my requirements), but if
they can achieve the "quickly" bit just as easily with a free app on their
smartphone as they could with 3 years worth of studying, allowing them to
provide the service more cheaply, then I'm all for it.

~~~
barrkel
London doesn't have a grid structure. When there's a closure or delay on one
route, it's not as simple as choosing the next road over. GPSes vary in their
quality for routing diversions, but in a maze of one-way streets, turning
restrictions and temporary / permanent rerouting in effect, a human is always
going to be better. GPS maps are often out of date as London is constantly
changing with rat-runs being closed down and new railway lines being built.

~~~
prof_hobart
And "The Knowledge" doesn't provide the ability for taxi drivers to
psychopathically become aware of delays in traffic on a given road. I've never
noticed any particular difference in the amount of time I've been stuck in
traffic when travelling in black cabs or in taxis with drivers using a GPS.

------
sheberight
Punter: traffic is bad today eh?

Cabbie: me mates are making a point about Uber

Punter: Uber? What's that? <tap-tap-tap> Cool! Let me out here.

Cabbie: tom tit! :-(

------
marksbrown
They also brought Southwark (near London Bridge, London) to a complete
standstill on Tuesday because TfL (Transport for London) is not ensuring
enough well placed taxi ranks. The Shard for instance has a space for a single
taxi.

Frankly this new protest and the former reek of an unwillingness to change.
Given the monopoly black cabs generally possess, it's not they're ever going
to be short of customers.

------
fidotron
If you think protectionism about Uber is bad just wait for self driving cabs
and trucks. This kind of thing is going to get a lot bigger.

------
brianlweiner
Ridiculous behavior. I'm glad the black taxis seem to have their customer's
well-being at heart.

"Uber, funded by Google, Goldman Sachs and others, has a stated aim of
challenging legislation that is not compatible with its business model," said
Mr McNamara.

"This is not some philanthropic friendly society, it's an American monster
that has no qualms about breaching any and all laws in the pursuit of profit,
most of which will never see a penny of tax paid in the UK."

Besides the ridiculous attempt to conflate Uber with evil bankers, it seems
strange to suggest "most" of the profit will never be taxed in UK. Aren't all
the UK drivers paying taxes?

~~~
kevingadd
The company's profits are far in excess of the employee salaries that are
taxed in most cases anyway. That's the goal. If the goal was to retain exactly
$0 in profit by paying your employees generously, then yes, the taxes your
employees paid would be enough.

~~~
Symmetry
Uber gives 80% of the fair to the divers. I'm struggling to see how it could
earn profits "far in excess" of of that 80% unless it invests whatever is left
of the 20% after overhead in some really lucrative City investments.

~~~
corin_
Presumably a chunk of that 80% gets written off by the drivers in expenses, so
not all of it will be taxable. Whether it's 10% or 90% that's nontaxable I've
no idea.

------
6d0debc071
I wonder how legal that is.

'If a person, without lawful authority or excuse, in any way wilfully
obstructs the free passage along a highway he is guilty of an offence and
liable to a fine not exceeding [F1 level 3 on the standard scale].'

\- Highways Act 1980
[http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1980/66/part/IX/crosshea...](http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1980/66/part/IX/crossheading/obstruction-
of-highways-and-streets)

~~~
ibmthrowaway218
The right to protest is also enshrined in UK law (within a huge number of
constraints).

Other (one-off or infrequent) protests such as Critical Mass certainly
obstruct free passage along the highway, but they are tolerated.

~~~
twic
Critical Mass isn't a protest, it's a procession, and it's not tolerated, it's
operating perfectly within the rights of its participants:
[http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200708/ldjudgmt/j...](http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200708/ldjudgmt/jd081126/metro-1.htm)

~~~
ibmthrowaway218
Fair enough, but there's enough stupid/aggresive behaviour on the London CM
for me (and a whole bunch of other cyclists I know) to stop attending it.

------
jcampbell1
I can't imagine a scenario where this doesn't backfire. This is going to put
Uber on the front page of every local London newspaper for a week. At most the
black cabs will force uber to make a minor programming change to the app, and
the most likely outcome is a massive expansion of Uber in London. I imagine
the folks at Uber HQ are giddy right now.

------
hobolobo
The impression is that Uber are somehow freeing customers from unscrupulous
and gouging taxi drivers. Taxi customers aren't being freed, they're simply
under new management.

~~~
LanceH
They're obviously getting something out of it or they wouldn't be customers of
the new service.

~~~
hobolobo
Just because they're getting something out of it doesn't mean it's a better
deal all round. Amazon saves individuals money but that doesn't ameliorate the
externalities that Amazon's business model create.

------
stuaxo
So - >> TfL told the association last month that it believed Uber's vehicles
were not strictly "equipped" with taximeters since there was not "some sort of
connection between the device and the vehicle".

Instead there is a device used for calculating how far it has gone, e.g.
"metering"... this is a bollocks distinction.

~~~
pjc50
It's correct, though; it's not attached to the drivetrain of the vehicle.
Ruling that any GPS device capable of tracking distance constituted a
"taximeter" and was therefore banned from private cars would be an unworkable
disaster.

(Hmm, I wonder how Uber's metering copes with the Blackwall tunnel and the
Woolwich ferry. My GPS directed me over the ferry once, resulting in a huge
delay. Note that on the ferry a GPS would count as "moving" but a taximeter
"stationary".)

------
bananas
Screw the black cabs.

I didn't realise what a rip off they are until I started driving around the
city myself regularly with Google Maps which to be honest with traffic aware
routing destroys "the knowledge" instantly. Black cab drivers know how to make
cash, not the most efficient journeys in time and money. That meter hurts you
badly.

So they'll cause some chaos; good for them but it'll raise more awareness on
the issue and hang them faster.

More competition is _required_ in this sector for the passengers.

~~~
stuaxo
Really ? It's not too expensive. And it seems the workers get a much better
deal than with Addisson Lee.

I make a point to use minicab firms if I'm not using a black cab, having
spoken to a couple of drivers about the working conditions under Addilee.

~~~
bananas
£19 each way from Waterloo to Barts. That's expensive.

------
tragic
Well, if the end result is I can travel a mile in a London cab without selling
a kidney, I can't say I'm too worried about Uber coming in.

~~~
JetSpiegel
If you want to travel a mile, you can just walk.

~~~
MRSallee
Rains a lot in London.

~~~
gmac
Luckily, humans are waterproof. :)

~~~
Dylan16807
Unluckily, they don't travel through rain naked.

~~~
JetSpiegel
Don't they?

------
aspidistra
Two other Black Cab app startups:

Get Taxi [http://gettaxi.co.uk/](http://gettaxi.co.uk/)

Hailo [https://www.hailocab.com/london](https://www.hailocab.com/london)

I believe these have faced some resistance in some cities even with a strategy
of working with licensed taxi operators.

------
switch007
I've used Climate Cars a few times and they're great. Mostly on time, their
drivers are courteous and well-dressed, and they have a fleet of nice cars
(I've mainly been in Prius and hybrid E-class cars).

Every time I get in a black cab, I wish I had booked with them. Most mini-cab
firms are atrocious - staff are rude and they have no idea where they're
going.

There's already good competition, but if there's more coming then I'm all for
it. Black cabs have a bad reputation.

(Edit: no, I don't work for them or have any affiliation.)

------
nakedrobot2
What a deplorable, luddite attitude.

The black taxis should be banned for some period of time for this behavior.

"The Licensed Taxi Drivers Association complains that Uber's drivers are using
a smartphone app to calculate fares despite it being illegal for private
vehicles to be fitted with taximeters." So using this website in your car is
illegal?! [http://www.worldtaximeter.com/](http://www.worldtaximeter.com/)

~~~
nodata
> What a deplorable, luddite attitude.

Well presumably you know their side of the story too?

Presumably (hopefully someone who actually knows can fill us in) the taxi
drivers have spent huge amounts of time learning The Knowledge and buying
their cars and keeping to the fairly strict regulations that exist, and don't
find it fair that another company can offer a service without a level playing
field. Presumably.

~~~
snitko
If their knowledge is of any value to consumers, consumers are going to choose
them over Uber. If not, then nobody should care. I can learn how to program
stuff for MSDOS, doesn't mean it'd be worth anything these days.

As for regulations and licensing, it shouldn't exist in the first place as it
only raises prices and prevents legitimate competition.

~~~
robryan
To what end? Anyone with a car can start their own taxi service? I don't think
it is in the public's interest to make taxi driving unprofitable which is what
would likely happen without regulation and licensing.

~~~
snitko
Where I live anyone can be a cab. You raise your hand on any street any time
of day and some car will stop. As a result, prices are normally 3 times lower
compared to the US. You negotiate the price with drivers beforehand and you
don't have to tip them because all of the money go directly into the driver's
pocket. I've never heard anyone complain about this system. Now tell me how is
this a bad idea?

~~~
nodata
Your argument is that cheapest must be best?

Try safety of the passenger, upkeep of the vehicle, all the other reasons
mentioned elsewhere on this page...

~~~
snitko
My argument is that market should decide. If some people want cheap and
unsafe, let them have it. If some people want expensive and licenced - let
them have it too. In Europe and the US you currently have a situation where
those who want a cheaper ride essentially subsidize those who value safety
more. That is in no way fair.

~~~
claudius
> My argument is that market should decide.

Or maybe, just maybe, the people should decide instead of random companies who
don’t pay taxes. And ‘the people’ usually decide by voting for their favourite
MP who can then implement their wishes. Laws regarding regulation of taxis did
not fall down one day and then were accepted as the god-given rights of taxi
drivers but were implemented because the general population thought them to be
a good thing™.

It’s not up to Uber to decide otherwise.

~~~
snitko
I just don't understand, how is it that in your mind voting is a better way to
let consumers decide than actually giving them choice? Alright, let me stop
right here. I know where this is going. You like state and regulations. I
don't. I think each individual should decide on his own with his own money he
spends or doesn't spend.

~~~
ZenPro
Feel free to hand back the medical care and schooling you received as a child
before you had money to spend.

Oh wait, you _needed_ the State then. Now it just seems inconvenient to you.

~~~
snitko
For those things you're talking about my parents paid their fair share of
taxes, not me. You have to realize, it's parents who pay for their children's
education and healthcare, not children themselves: this is true whether we're
talking about public or private.

But even if you were right and indeed it is me who is supposed to be paying
taxes now for my education in the past, then this sounds a lot like this:

\- Here, have a free sandwich \- Ok, thanks \- You ate it? Now give me $10.

in other words, a scam.

~~~
ZenPro
A scam that has halted rampant infant mortality rates.

I wish we had more scams like that.

Your naivete is breathtaking.

------
btbuildem
And you can laugh at the havoc, for the entire duration of your bike ride.

------
calinet6
You can't block progress.

------
raldi
Note that the rank-and-file taxi drivers aren't complaining; they'll all get a
chance to become Uber drivers. It's the incumbent taxi _organization_ that's
upset, because it's about to become a lot less powerful.

~~~
stuaxo
And we can all get a chance to swap our jobs for zero hours contracts, what a
wonderful world.

~~~
raldi
Taxi drivers' pre-Uber work arrangements are even worse; by and large they
seem to love switching from working for a taxi company to working as an Uber
driver. For example:

[http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2014/01/15/with-ubers-comes-
stru...](http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2014/01/15/with-ubers-comes-struggle-for-
san-francisco-taxis/)

[http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2014/01/16/san-francisco-
ca...](http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2014/01/16/san-francisco-cab-drivers-
migrate-to-uber-other-car-services/)

[http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/12/12/how-
lyft-...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/12/12/how-lyft-and-
uber-will-raise-taxi-drivers-incomes-not-lower-them/)

In fact, for all the articles about taxi companies protesting _before_ Uber
comes to town, have you ever seen one about drivers complaining _after?_

