
The culture where play is shameful (2012) - dirtyaura
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201207/all-work-and-no-play-make-the-baining-the-dullest-culture-earth
======
bane
Papua New Guinea is endlessly studied. Jared Diamond speculates various
reasons for why the people there didn't develop into a post-hunter-gatherer
civilization (or much beyond that). While much of his work has been disputed,
I think it's still an interesting question.

I can't help sometimes when reading anthropological studies or videos of a
pre-modern civilization that a terrible amount of time is spent on rituals and
dances and other things and perhaps the key is that other, faster developing
groups of people simply found a different balance between work and these non-
productive activities.

However, the Baining seem to represent the opposite end, doing nothing _but_
productive work, and yet they aren't exactly the unusually advanced Atlanteans
of PNG either.

So I was struck by this "and exhibited little curiosity or enthusiasm" and it
kind of hits me how important imagination and enthusiasm are in the process of
_advancing_ things. Toil gets stuff done, but you're just running in place.
Imagination is a kind of play, and it's necessary to move you forward as well.

~~~
wodenokoto
> Jared Diamond speculates various reasons for why the people there didn't
> develop into a post-hunter-gatherer civilization (or much beyond that).
> While much of his work has been disputed

So it would be a waste of time to read Guns Germs and Steel, since it is
mostly disputed? What would be a good alternative then?

~~~
tedunangst
He makes some interesting observations, but stretches some of the conclusions
quite a bit. Basically suffers from a lot of confirmation bias. Tends to
ignore or overlook contradictory evidence.

~~~
soperj
Definitely agree with that. Especially about the domestication large fauna in
North America. How can you completely ignore the buffalo?

~~~
facepalm
He answers some questions here, also about bison domestication:
[http://jareddiamond.org/Jared_Diamond/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel...](http://jareddiamond.org/Jared_Diamond/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel.html)

(according to this link I just googled, American buffalos are actually bisons
[http://www.diffen.com/difference/Bison_vs_Buffalo](http://www.diffen.com/difference/Bison_vs_Buffalo)
)

~~~
soperj
I read it, and it seems like crap. "When I ask American readers and animal
handlers familiar with bison the possible reasons for bison non-domestication,
they mention two factors: unpredictable dangerous disposition, such that bison
ranchers remain wary of them; and ability to jump fences, such they could not
be penned until modern strong high fences became available."

First off, Bulls can definitely have nasty dispositions, and secondly they can
definitely jump fences. I've personally seen a bull clear a 8 foot fence.

 _thanks for providing that though!_

~~~
facepalm
I don't know anything about bisons. Are they domesticated these days?

So you would say they would have been eligible for domestication and native
Americans failed to do so for some unknown reason?

~~~
tedunangst
I think you're making much the same mistake Diamond does, assuming that
domestication is inevitable, and that if it doesn't happen, somebody "failed".

~~~
facepalm
Well they failed by becoming subjugated by the European settlers, dying from
diseases by the millions. That's what the book is about. I don't see a way to
paint that in lovely colors? What about that isn't "failure"?

The argument here was that Diamond's theory is wrong because the native
Americans could have domesticated the bisons after all. The claim that they
are too difficult to tame is dismissed as "crap". Then it seems to me why they
were not being domesticated needs another explanation (if the one from Diamond
is not good enough). Just random chance?

------
adevine
Ugh, that culture sounds like hell on earth. I am amazed by the unique
capability of humans to take our most ingrained needs and desires and turn
them into shame. Whether it be sex, or food, or "wasting time", or even just
displays of emotion, we have somehow managed to turn these most central of
human feelings into something bad. I'm not arguing that we should completely
give ourselves over to our base urges, but acknowledging they exist, that
everyone has them, and that they can be a wonderful thing would be a great
start.

~~~
javert
> I'm not arguing that we should completely give ourselves over to our base
> urges, but acknowledging they exist, that everyone has them, and that they
> can be a wonderful thing would be a great start.

As soon as you say something like this, you concede the argument.

You are equating human happiness with "giving in to base urges," which
couldn't be further from the truth.

~~~
adevine
By "base urges", I mean that quite literally, and not with a negative
connotation. I mean the most fundamental of human needs: food, sex, emotional
expression. I mean that we should take delight in a great meal, but not to the
point that we overdose on food to the point where it's harmful and no longer
pleasurable. Same thing goes for sex and emotional expression.

~~~
david-given
Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs is useful to point at in this sort of
conversation:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs)

------
zem
the comment thread is excellent, and a lot more insightful than the article
(which was interesting, but seemed a bit simplified and superficial to me).
note especially the comments from actual baining people.

~~~
JesperRavn
The thread was very interesting, but I didn't see any posts by Baining people,
which would be very interesting to me. Can you provide a link or the usernames
they were using so I can search?

~~~
schoen
I looked through and saw only one, "Ngorana".

~~~
JesperRavn
Thanks. I'm reposing here because I found it hard to find:

 _You think you understand??

Submitted by Ngorana of Sinivit, South Coast Baining, Papua New Guinea on
August 7, 2012 - 7:49pm

I agree that some cultures and child rearing and discipline can be
restrictive, but brought up in a similar manner does not mean that we do not
value our upbringing - and i do not see it as 'dull' or 'boring' or 'wrong'!
From what I think, in the western society, perception of play and the correct
form of discipline to be practiced on children is very different from the most
cultures in the east.

I must say, that in the previous works stated in the essay, of the Baining
people saying little or nothing in interviews is due to the fact, that if you
are not a member (specifically foreigner) of the concerned society amongst the
Bainings, than you do not necessarily need to acquire knowledge of their
cultural or philosophical way of life - except if you are 'married' into the
society, adopted or asked to be part of the society. Baining people are very
careful with what they say, and to who, especially about cultural practices -
it is a taboo to inform foreigners about this. We are people of little talk.
We believe more in actions, and that people must read and interpret them
correctly. Something of which our children are taught.

For Baining's of Sinivit of the south coast for example, play is accepted and
taken as time-out. However, adults instill in children that working such as
chopping fire wood, diving for fish, gardening, building houses, hunting and
gathering is crucial in sustaining your self and your land - especially for
males at a later age. Children are taught to be independent and self
sufficient and less dependent on their parents or elders at a very young age.
This whole concept of not allowing play in our daily lives to me is WRONG. The
notion of them becoming young women or men one day is embedded into our
thoughts by our elders, and that how we are brought up by them will determine
what type of adults we will become. In return, the very existence and state of
our land (our heritage) and its affairs depend greatly on our actions. We are
taught to become hard workers and very private about our cultural affairs.

You see, before the colonial era, we the Baining's inhabited the whole of the
land of East New Britain. Invasion by a neighboring cultural group - the
'Tolai' people, forced us into the jungles and coastal area due south of the
province. Our forefathers lost most of our valuable land, and people to
cannibalism, practiced amongst these invaders. Then during the colonial area,
the Germans enslaved them, forcing them into mining our alluvial gold and
carrying them hundreds of kilometers inland and storing them away, in what was
considered as sacred land - biding us against our cultural beliefs. Stories of
these past events have further created a sense of secrecy in protecting our
cultural ways (specifically the fire dance), and our land especially.

Baining people do not depend on other related societies to survive out in the
natural environment, and land and sea is seen as a commodity of which is
treasured and priceless. 'You reap what you sow', is highly emphasized in our
cultural society - something of which may be deemed archaic in biblical
times....

And so, in my opinion the essay composed by Dr Grey based on some the works of
Fajan's is quite biased if you ask me. People do not have the right to be
'frustrated' when studying foreign cultures - you simply have to endure it, or
stop wasting your time. Culture is not just something you record, observe and
interpret over time, its how well you integrate yourself into the traditions,
beliefs and practices of the people of that particular heritage and understand
it and its people. Most importantly, you must respect these aspects, as not
one culture no matter how much you see it as perfect, is seen as perfect or
the correct practice for different cultural societies._

~~~
peter_l_downs
Incredible comment. Maybe link to the source?

~~~
JesperRavn
too late to edit my comment, but here it is

[https://www.psychologytoday.com/comment/246571#comment-24657...](https://www.psychologytoday.com/comment/246571#comment-246571)

------
Red_Tarsius
It's like an alien culture out of a Star Trek episode.

Play is not an anomaly, but the essence of personal and technological
development. The fuel of progress is play and _Learning by example_ is no
substitute for _trial and error_. On top of that, a play-less culture is not
resilient at all, and therefore prone to extinction.

~~~
lovemenot
I believe one of the most difficult aspects of anthropology is to extract ones
own cultural biases from observations.

>> Play is not an anomaly, but the essence of personal and technological
development

It's not that _I_ disagree with you per se. Rather that you just stated baldly
as fact, what are clearly just your own (and my own) biases.

>> a play-less culture is not resilient at all, and therefore prone to
extinction.

Perhaps, but against that, it seems the Baining people have been this way for
at least a hundred years. Perhaps considerably longer.

~~~
oldmanjay
well they aren't exactly thriving using a modern understanding of the word. in
a sense, they avoided extinction narrowly by not being found by a white dude
with an evangelical streak at the wrong point in history

------
dschiptsov
There must be some confusion, at least with too abstract concepts. Every
evolutionary psychologist will tell you that "play" is how humans and animals
learn - by imitating and "practising". It is related to social and especially
matting "skills", or, a more correct world - "habits". Play is evolutionary
way to develop useful habits. So-called "mirror neurons" meme explains social
aspect of "play". If this society isn't extinguished yet, it means that
observed phenomena is rather a product if imagination and wishful thinking.

But nowadays everything written without obscene words and spelling errors
could be considered " scientific".

------
pizu
"She found, however, that she could study them by following them around and
observing their daily activities and interactions." Are you f$%"£ kidding me?
This sounds like such a revelation but is so bleeding obvious. Of course you
have to observe people in their natural habitat, WATCHING them, not just
sending them a SurveyMonkey survey or asking a buncha questions. C'mon people.
Get real!

~~~
pcrh
The author was contrasting Fajans approach with that adopted by two previous
anthropologists, who had abandoned the tribe as "boring" or "unstudiable".

------
Reason077
While reading this article, I mentally replaced "Baining" with "British". And
sadly, it rang true.

~~~
rollthehard6
If that were really true nobody would be trying to figure out why the UK is so
unproductive, either that or we are working very hard doing very little (Said
he on HN at work).

------
amelius
I wonder how this culture would transform if it were subjected to facebook.

------
aaa123456
Sounds like Asian parents, especially 'Tiger Moms'.

------
flycaliguy
Reminds me of my in-laws who get this puzzled look on their face when I
(rarely) mention my music.

------
comrade1
I don't see how the early anthropologists would be so bored with this tribe.
They sound so different than anything else and fascinating.

This shows how important play is to develop imaginary things like gods,
rituals, etc. however, I do wish American adults played a little less.
Whenever I'm in the u.s. or when American friends visit me they're constantly
futzing around on their phone playing games. I mean constantly and nearly
everyone.

Imagine how much you could accomplish if you used that time to for example
learn a new language. And before you say that people need to take a break
every now and then the people playing these games don't seem to be taking it
easy - they're working really hard it!

So there probably is some value in shaming play, at least in adults.

~~~
derefr
Those "casual" (not really) games are addictive without really being "fun" per
se. People aren't _playing_ at them, any more than they're _playing_ a slot
machine. They're just hooked on them, with social reinforcement by the same
mechanisms as prime-time television (the water-cooler "did you get to see/do X
last night" sort of conversation.) They're like viruses spreading through the
population.

There are probably a few reasons why America has the problem especially
badly—maybe an higher-than-average prevalence of ADHD makes this sort of
addiction easier to fall into; maybe being the origin of these games and their
first launch-market means we get saturated in them (and especially in their
coordinated "viral PR" launch campaigns) in a way few other countries do.
Really, I think it's just that the social pressure factor is stronger—we
_really_ like having shared private experiences to talk about at water-
coolers. See also: soap operas.

~~~
beloch
I've never played phone-games much, but enough that I wondered if I could find
a better use for the time. I found one:

Chess

Chess works pretty well as a phone-game. You can blitz against the computer
and work through endlessly non-repeating permutations of mid and late game
play that you'd rarely see against human opponents. Playing against your cell
phone does not adequately prepare you for human opponents on its own, but it
does help you improve your game.

While being good at chess if of questionable utility, at least it's somewhat
respected and can be used in social settings. It's viewed as a skill, unlike
being good at flappy bird.

~~~
harshreality
It's interesting to consider _why_ it is that some games are respected and
viewed as a skill.

I think what sets games like chess, and to a greater extent go, apart from
trivial addictive games, is that they teach concentration, executive function,
pattern recognition, and in some cases jumping up and down abstraction
hierarchies, in a way that probably extends beyond the game's domain into
life.

I don't know what to do about the morass of addictive games that are taking
over human mindshare. There have always been some; even crossword puzzles are
arguably the pre-computer version. They strengthen recall and concept
association but how useful is that, since most of what's required is trivia?
Scrabble at least is social (with the benefits that entails) in addition to
strengthening recall of uncommon words.

~~~
gambiting
Some time ago there was an article here about Croatia(I think?) making chess
playing mandatory for all school children. The comments section was full of
people saying that it's stupid because there is no correlation between playing
chess and any skill useful in life. There are no studies that prove that
playing chess improves anything, apart from....being good at chess. I don't
know if that is true personally, but that was the vibe HN was giving.

------
dang
Url changed from [http://io9.com/5929918/so-called-dullest-culture-on-earth-
fr...](http://io9.com/5929918/so-called-dullest-culture-on-earth-frowns-upon-
sex-and-bans-play), which points to this.

