
Simon Peyton-Jones on computer science in school curriculums [video] - francescoc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=X-AIbtus9gs&feature=emb_logo
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hackermailman
Shriram Krishnamurthi of Brown University already accomplished this and gave a
great talk about the problems of creating a new course, when you can just
shove it into the existing math classes without needing to hire thousands of
specialist teachers or worry about yet another mandatory class where schools
reduce the rigor, or worry about students not even being able to take the
class because they are in remedial classes and never even make it to a
computational elective
[https://youtu.be/5c0BvOlR5gs](https://youtu.be/5c0BvOlR5gs)

~~~
chrisseaton
> when you can just shove it into the existing math classes

This is how it's already done in the UK, and has been for decades. When I was
in high-school (or rather the UK equivalent) about twenty years ago we did
discrete maths, algorithms, and data structures in the regular maths classes.
I don't think computers were even mentioned - it was all described as maths
topics.

And this was a bog-standard state school.

So when I want to university interviews I was already able to describe for
example how to implement a hash table.

~~~
closeparen
I’m thankful every day for getting into programming early enough to know that
the adults saying “programming is like math” were full of shit. No career
could be less appealing than cranking arithmetic, polynomials, integrals, and
derivatives for 8 hours day in and day out, which is of course what “math”
means when you’re in K12. If it were introduced to me in that context and by
teachers with that mindset, I wouldn’t be here.

~~~
chrisseaton
> which is of course what “math” means when you’re in K12

But you have it backwards. When programming is introduced as maths people see
how maths is more than ‘ arithmetic, polynomials, integrals, and derivatives’.

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MarcScott
I work for the Raspberry Pi Foundation, and we are very involved with the NCCE
which SPJ talked about.

If any of your are even slightly inspired by what was talked about in this
video, and would like to get involved with teaching the next generation of
hackers, then I'd like to suggest that you think about starting or supporting
one of the clubs SPJ mentioned.

CodeClubs are school based clubs that you can run in a local school. We
provide all the resources and guidance you need, and you can get involved
here.

[https://codeclub.org/en/](https://codeclub.org/en/)

Coder Dojos are clubs that are run at weekends, in libraries, offices and
community centers. Again, we provide educational resources to help you out.

[https://coderdojo.com/](https://coderdojo.com/)

Both of these clubs are international. So it doesn't matter which country you
are based in.

Also happy to answer any questions people have.

Oh, and if you have kids and want to get them started, checkout some of our
projects. These are the Scratch ones.

[https://projects.raspberrypi.org/en/projects?software%5B%5D=...](https://projects.raspberrypi.org/en/projects?software%5B%5D=scratch)

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the_af
I really enjoy listening to SPJ on almost any topic. He seems so friendly as
well as knowledgeable. And humble! I already like Haskell, but I bet he could
convince me to like almost anything else.

~~~
kreetx
Here is another one which I've really liked over the years:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NRrUvqQlnY&t](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NRrUvqQlnY&t)

He is so warm and spontaneous, yet smart and obviously can invent exact and
concrete things!

~~~
the_af
Yes, I love that talk too! Thanks for posting it.

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kenni
I work in a similar organisation to SPJ in Australia, the Australian Computing
Academy ([https://aca.edu.au](https://aca.edu.au)). Everything he said mirrors
quite closely what has been happening in Australia for the past decade. We
also have a national curriculum
([https://docs.acara.edu.au/resources/Digital_Technologies_-
_S...](https://docs.acara.edu.au/resources/Digital_Technologies_-
_Sequence_of_content.pdf)) which we're rolling out across the country.

The main take away I've received from doing this job for the past two years is
the same one that SPJ reiterates in his talk. Teaching is a very distributed
discipline. There's no top down solution to implementing a new curriculum. If
you work in the industry and volunteer to help a school you can make a huge
difference!

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0898
I unknowingly met him once in 2002 or 2003, and I’ve just this second realised
who he was.

I was visiting Microsoft Research in Cambridge writing an article for PC
Format magazine, a British computer mag. They took me to see a few people to
show off Microsoft Research.

There was this one guy who talked to me in his office. He got very excited
about Haskell (which I didn’t know what it was) and he was also working on
some Excel feature he was convinced of the brilliance of, but hasn’t persuaded
the product team of.

His theory was that the only thing you know about an Excel spreadsheet is that
most of your predications are wrong. My interpretation was that he was
proposing a way of indicating a probabilistic range rather than a hard number.

I don’t know if this ever made it into Excel, or if indeed this was what he
was talking about.

But it’s amazing to see this odd fellow I met was actually quite famous.

~~~
gnufx
That work might have been [https://www.microsoft.com/en-
us/research/publication/a-user-...](https://www.microsoft.com/en-
us/research/publication/a-user-centred-approach-to-functions-in-excel/)

Perhaps it's significant in context that a writer for a UK computing mag
wouldn't know of SPJ. Would they know of any UK CS luminaries, like Hoare?

~~~
0898
Yes, that’s it. Good find. I’m the first to admit I was an IT dilettante,
despite covering it.

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gexla
Great video, listening to it now. His accent is fun. He sounds like he could
play Caesar in Life Of Brian.

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donjigweed
SPJ is an absolute beast, though whenever I hear a talk of his all I can think
of is the Impressive Clergyman.

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willtim
What a fantastic call to arms! I'm tempted to get involved myself after
watching this talk. I couldn't agree more with everything SPJ said.

~~~
MarcScott
Want a quick start - start a CodeClub or Coder Dojo.

[https://codeclub.org/en/](https://codeclub.org/en/)

[https://coderdojo.com/](https://coderdojo.com/)

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ngneer
Thanks for sharing. A great reminder of the beauty of the field.

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agumonkey
Next : sicm in physics class

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getaclue
Thanks for sharing this!

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hogFeast
Just my 2c but this is one of the worst ideas.

First, this was designed by politicians who I am sure everyone on this sub
would hate (basically, the Brexit boys). The stated aim was to be more
elitist: make subjects much harder, encourage smart children...and dumb
children...well...sorry, if you are dumb when we test you at 11 then you will
be digging ditches.

Second, the logic for this came from people who had never taught in schools.
Again, the people above declared war on teachers. And then took advice on how
to educate children from people who had only worked in tertiary education (I
actually support a lot of the principles but the implementation has been
beyond dire, and loaded with corruption).

Third, try explaining programming without computers to a child. There are so
many abstract concepts...it is just insane. I understand why an academic
thinks this is a good idea. More jobs for the boys. But it still makes no
sense.

Fourth, this feeds into the aspect of British culture that reveres irrelevant
knowledge (and despises practice). Nowhere is this more evident that in CS
departments. Example: the UK has great CS depts but no innovation within
business. The university local to me has a top ML department, they have been
doing speech recognition since the 60s...all the PHds leave, there is only one
speech recognition startup in the city...and that is govt-funded afaik. Taking
advice from people like the OP is suicidal.

~~~
Feint1
> I understand why an academic thinks this is a good idea. More jobs for the
> boys.

This isn't fair. Academics usually have a true love of their subject and
desire to teach that to the next generation.

>Third, try explaining programming without computers to a child. There are so
many abstract concepts...it is just insane.

They teach many abstract concepts. The current curricula for many subjects are
already full of abstract ideas that we expect children to learn. Programming
is basically functions, logic and basic algebra. It's not remotely difficult
to teach these to children.

>Fourth, this feeds into the aspect of British culture that reveres irrelevant
knowledge (and despises practice). Nowhere is this more evident that in CS
departments. Example: the UK has great CS depts but no innovation within
business. The university local to me has a top ML department, they have been
doing speech recognition since the 60s...all the PHds leave, there is only one
speech recognition startup in the city...and that is govt-funded afaik. Taking
advice from people like the OP is suicidal.

I think this is wrong. Developing strong theoretical understanding is not
pointless. You can't have innovation without theory. I agree that maybe the
country needs to apply that academic kowledge better to money making
endeavours, but I don't believe that keeping the education system as it is now
is going to help. We need more numerate people with detailed knowledge of
scientific disciplines in order to drive innovation.

~~~
the_af
Agreed. Besides, SPJ is not advocating teaching without computers at all. He
just discusses de-emphasizing the "cool tech" aspect of CS, but also says that
completely excluding computers wouldn't be much fun.

The relevant slide states about programming (and computers and tech):

    
    
        - Crucial, motivating, and "ground truth".
        - But also seductive, distracting, and risks excessive focus on technology details
    

It's hard for me to disagree with either claim.

SPJ is also not talking about "irrelevant knowledge without practice". I won't
reiterate all his points, because that's what the lecture is for, but he
stresses the practical parts as well as the theoretical parts, and he never
claims CS should be taught "without practice".

~~~
hogFeast
Whether he is advocating it or not, this is essentially how things have turned
out. In the UK, they are examining on DS&A for 16 year olds. Yes, there is a
"programming" module but there is no actual content...the questions are: "how
do you declare a variable", "what is the difference between for/while", and
about different paradigms (these aren't taught in themselves, you just need to
know what they are).

Btw, to be totally clear: the reason why this doesn't work is because we have
been here before. The majority of the UK's leaders grow up doing whatever they
think is valuable, and can totally disregard what other people need/want. The
idea of practical knowledge makes no sense. You see this in CS courses that
have no programming (again, my city has a very good CS dept...turns out grads
who have only written a few hundred lines in their life). And it happens in a
ton of other courses.

I get the idea of knowledge for it's own sake is very important for some
people. But, again, look at the practice...this is how it is has turned out.

