
Study finds professors’ attitudes affect students’ grades - pseudolus
https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/02/huge-study-finds-professors-attitudes-affect-students-grades/
======
Haga
There where some clearly recognize able outliers in motivation where I
studied. There was a mathematics professor who would try to fix the edu gaps
and gaps in understanding for every student willing to listen often at expense
of her own time. There was the embedded systems expert who tirelessly showed
fascinating stuff to less then ideal students like me. There was the
algorithmic prof who's lectures always transported this Flair of "remember all
this did not exist half a life ago. There is still adventure around and
novelty to be found". All still had feynmans fire in their eyes. It was a
privilege to study beneath them.

------
foota
I'm not saying the claims aren't plausible, but it sounds like this could be
p-hacking? "No other factor the researchers analyzed showed a statistically
significant difference among classes—not the instructors' experience, tenure
status, gender, specific department, or even ethnicity."

~~~
ASpring
To me it looks more like due diligence. If you present only the main result
every single reviewer will ask "Well couldn't the instructor's
gender/ethnicity/tenure/experience explain this result?" Then you're forced to
include this analysis either way.

~~~
foota
That's true. We can't know which came first though, I think the proposed
solution to this is pre recording of methodology and hypothesis.

Honestly, I'm inclined to believe this study was done ethically, but I wanted
to point out the possibility.

~~~
cortesoft
Right, but I don’t think them saying they examined the other variables makes
it more or less likely they were p-hacking.

------
userbinator
_two years ' worth of students’ grades in those instructors’ classes_

...grades assigned by those instructors? I haven't looked at the details but
that's what I think is the biggest flaw in this study. It would not surprise
me if the "growth mindset" instructors were also more lax with marking,
introducing more noise in the grades while simultaneously making them higher.
(I worked in teaching CS a while ago, and have seen some pretty horrible
things...)

I'm personally of the "growth, but with a limit" mindset --- I wonder which
side that stands on their scale.

~~~
rwl
> grades assigned by those instructors?

Probably not directly. These are STEM classes at a big public university; I'm
guessing most of the grades were assigned by TAs, and only approved or
minimally adjusted by professors.

------
wallace_f
Biases like these and many others are obviously problematic throughout our
education system.

Is there a good way to abstract _testing_ away from educators so they can
focus on teaching? Isn't that the way it should be done?

In high school I found video games and chess, which captivated my competitive
drive. Shouldn't education have such objective competitions where possible? I
think that would eliminate such biases, captivate more minds, and propel human
progress. No?

~~~
retsibsi
> Is there a good way to abstract testing away from educators so they can
> focus on teaching? Isn't that the way it should be done?

Ideally I think this should be done at a high level -- i.e. separating the
institutions that do the teaching from those that do the testing and award the
credentials.

More practically in the short term, it would be great if teaching and grading
were separated and allocated to different staff members. (Preferably with a
proper firewall between them, to guard against politics and favour-trading.)
There are just too many conflicts of interest and emotional pressures
involved. This separation may also increase the likelihood that grading would
be taken seriously, with markers given enough time and incentive to do the job
properly.

~~~
ianai
I’d like something a little “panoptic”. Have everything the student interacts
with the teacher be recorded on a reviewable medium. Every minute of the
teachers class gets recorded from multiple angles - no blind spots. Have
teachers drop in on other teachers feeds randomly. This could be recorded
material but should most definitely be done so that the teachers don’t know
one another. Give the students the ability to flag a grade for review. (If the
student flags grades often then that should trigger a review. Maybe a
discussion with a school counselor.)

I’d also like surveillance in place with the express intent of catching and
correcting bullying. But that’d encounter political push back. Bullying,
though, should be taken as seriously as bringing a gun to school and a kill
list. Lots of counseling, parental oversight, etc

And if all of this is too much then we scrap public schooling and offer online
teaching with plenty of library study spaces.

~~~
antepodius
You're certainly right in that people would object to the construction of an
out-and-out panopticon.

~~~
ianai
Ask yourself why any part of the lecture and homework should be kept private.
We already know to not assume privacy in public spaces. Teachers are in an
environment where they should not assume privacy. Student grades are personal
and should be under their control who sees them - but it should be possible to
challenge a bad grade. There are malignant teachers in the world.

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
Some people aren’t particularly fond of performing in front of a camera to
have their performance reviewed by—the data will be leaked—anyone.

It should be possible to flag a bad grade, doesn’t mean we need to institute a
surveillance system to achieve this. The same goes for bad actors playing
teacher.

~~~
wallace_f
If you're ever been victim of bullying or abuse, especially by an authority,
you'd consider the right to record yourself in public to be important.

The ACLU even has an app that can start recording by voice command. You should
use it any time you are in a scenario with disproportionate inbalance of power
(like when a police officer pulls you over).

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
I have been the victim of bullying and abuse, both at school by arse-hat
students, teachers, year-level co-ordinators, and by the police.

I have, at times, walked in to situations with my phone's voice recorder
running. I have, at times, photographed and filmed the police.

What does the _right to record yourself in public_ have to do with
institutionalised panopticon style surveillance?

~~~
ianai
Bullying is horrifically effective at protecting itself. One huge reason I
never got help with the bullying was fear. Fear that moving me in the class
room would further isolate me from my peers. Fear of retaliation. Etc.

They had me convinced I deserved the abuse or that it wasn’t abuse. They were
“just telling me to expect to live my life alone and that no one would ever
love me” out of the goodness of their hearts.

Why seek help with something that’s “not even a thing”?

That’s why third parties need to oversee student interactions.

~~~
wallace_f
Thanks for this comment. It is accurate at describing my circumstances as
well. Although in my case I think I am fortunate a lot of people want to help
me, but are scared to, or dont know what to do. Unfortunately, my immediate
peer group is where this started.

------
nyxxie
It’s probably just politics, but it looks to me like the GPA disparity between
white and minority students is another issue entirely. This article making it
the primary focus felt really sloppy and forced. Can’t we just report that
professors with shitty attitudes affect students grades negatively and leave
it at that? That’s what seems to be the common issue here, let’s have an
inclusive solution rather than only focusing on one party.

~~~
robsont
Are you suggesting that once found out about the statistical significance they
should have hidden it?

~~~
pliny
There were a lot of better quality results that aren't reported from this
study:
[http://advances.sciencemag.org/highwire/filestream/211174/fi...](http://advances.sciencemag.org/highwire/filestream/211174/field_highwire_adjunct_files/0/aau4734_SM.pdf)

Instead that article talks about some p=0.041/0.049 (!!) bs.

------
DC-3
I take issue with the assertion that the time that a module requires is a good
assessment of its difficulty.

~~~
chongli
Yeah, seriously. My friend is taking a beginner-type CS course (how to use
various software, basic Excel stuff, macros, databases). The assignments are
extremely time-consuming but laughably easy.

On the other hand, some of our math courses have assignments that are very
short but extremely difficult. A person who is an expert in the material could
probably do the assignment in about 20-30 minutes but for beginners it takes
hours to figure out some of these proofs.

------
sfgnu89q3
I find this "growth mindset" stuff disturbing.

Let me start by saying that I don't believe a word of it. The evidence I have
seen suggests that intelligence is important in pretty much all intellectual
activities, can be accurately measured by IQ tests, and _cannot_ be improved.
This is also, as far as I can tell, the strong consensus of the psychological
community.

Assuming this is true, the proliferation of this "growth mindset" thinking has
at least two scary thoughts:

1\. If we encourage people to adopt a growth mindset because it will make them
do better, than we are telling them what to believe _without caring_ whether
or not it is true. We are encouraging the adoption of _convenient_ beliefs. Is
that what educators should do?

2\. It may lead to building an even more unequal society than the one we
already have. Imagine the person who has no natural ability at all in a given
field and does not succeed in it. If that person has a fixed mindset, they can
conclude they have no ability and move on. If that person has a growth
mindset, will they have any other option than to blame themselves for being
lazy? A growth mindset means that mere bad luck is turned into _culpability._
Success is largely the product of luck, whether due to the wealth of one's
parents or one's natural ability. If everyone in society adopts a growth
mindset, then successful people can claim they are _morally superior_ than
people who fail.

Even assuming this research is accurate, it's not some happy uplifting story
about how being positive can solve all your problems. It's a nasty ethical can
of worms.

~~~
smadge
Sure, if a growth mindset didn’t actually improve outcomes it would be
negligent to promote a growth mindset. However, the evidence suggests that a
growth mindset does improve outcomes. In the interest of improving outcomes a
growth mindset should be encouraged.

Your second point is true, that success is often determined by factors outside
of an individual’s control (e.g. luck, parental income, school district,
discrimination, etc). But we should educate people on which factors that lead
to success are under their control, and it appears the growth mindset leads to
success and is under their control.

~~~
sfgnu89q3
>In the interest of improving outcomes a growth mindset should be encouraged.

In the interest of teaching students real science and encouraging critical
thinking, what should we do? Even if the growth mindset works, the fact that
it works doesn't imply we should teach it.

~~~
smadge
My point is that the growth mindset is real science and additionally makes
students better at learning real science.

------
saagarjha
> Identifying information was removed, but some information, like entering SAT
> scores and ethnicity, was retained.

This, together with grades and the classes the student took, doesn't seem like
it would be very anonymous?

------
smadge
In a recent college mathematics course I took, the professor took an hour in
the first week to explain research on the growth mindset. More professors
should do this!

------
monk_e_boy
Marking students assignments is a total fucking minefield. Perfect code? But
poor refetencing? Fail. Its almost pointless, like i tell them, your grade
doesn’t matter, make sure you can code and you’ll ace the interview for your
dream job.

~~~
thaumasiotes
> make sure you can code and you’ll ace the interview for your dream job

I would say that your ability to code has nothing to do with whether you pass
an interview. For example, here's a rejection I received recently:

> the decision was made mainly around our estimate of your level of enthusiasm
> for the company and the role. We are committed to hiring people who are
> strongly aligned with our mission and excited about the organization and
> what we are doing. In our conversation, you didn't express much interest in
> us as a company. [...]

> As I mentioned above, it is very important to us that our employees are
> excited about the company. We value that just as much as we value a fit from
> a skills and experience perspective. Again, I am sorry things didn't work
> out, but I hope you find this feedback helpful.

~~~
WrtCdEvrydy
> you didn't express much interest in us as a company

I have never worked at a place where I gave a shit about the company. I come
in, I do my job, try my best to ensure things get better, eventually I roll
out.

Never mix business with pleasure.

~~~
Simon_says
That attitude is adaptive for you and maladaptive for the company.

------
sadris
Sentencing is harsher the 30 minutes before lunch then after lunch.

We need to have AI run everything to prevent bias.

~~~
tzs
The sentencing study that found those differences was looking at parole
decisions. It is not at all clear that the difference before and after lunch
(and a similar difference after an afternoon break) shows any bias.

A later paper showed that you would get the same effect from a simple,
rational time management approach. Cases that are granted parole tend to take
longer to decide than those that are denied parole.

If the judges can estimate before the hearing which type of case it is likely
to be (from things such as the thickness of the case file, what kind of
representation the petition has, etc.), they would tend to schedule the cases
that look like they will take longer first thing in the morning, or after
lunch, or after the afternoon break, and they would schedule the shorter cases
closer to break times.

This would result in more granting of parole in the morning and after breaks
than before breaks.

Here's an article about this [1].

[1] [https://mindhacks.com/2016/12/08/rational-judges-not-
extrane...](https://mindhacks.com/2016/12/08/rational-judges-not-extraneous-
factors-in-decisions/)

~~~
iguy
Yup. And this should have been blindingly obvious to everyone involved in
writing/reviewing/editing the original paper -- the effect size reported was
just far too large. <10% parole before and >70% after lunch? That's not a mood
swing. Especially since a lot of parole cases are very very routine, and not
really close judgement calls.

~~~
ruytlm
If this was at all realistic, we'd also see similar effects in people in other
fields - bus drivers more likely to crash before lunch, etc. That we don't see
such an outrageous difference implies that the original study is not tracking
the relevant variable when it looks at before/after lunch.

