

HN: you are guilty of premature optimization - yters

Most of us here want to become financially free.  This is what draws us to talk about startups, finances, and the like.  You would think, being hackers, we would focus on the most efficient ways to become financially free.  But, we do not.  Instead we focus on one, very difficult, exhausting, and undependable method - selling an online startup.  Why is this?<p>Some might say it is because you want to be your own boss.  Fine, but don't you want to be your own boss because then you are free?  Isn't the original problem, then, that you are enslaved by the pursuit of money?<p>Others might say they like the glamor.  For that it seems obvious that you need large amounts of publicity and money.  But why make this assumption?  What is more glamorous, someone who is dependent on a massive infrastructure, or someone who struck out and made their own destiny?  Plus, the new, social media is much better publicity than that of the old, institutional media.  With all the time on your hands when you are financially free, you have plenty of time to make a name for yourself.<p>Finally, some may just want loads of money to spend on whatever cool gadgets and experiences they may want.  This is more difficult to achieve with financial freedom alone.  But, it is not impossible.  Again, financial freedom gives you all the time you could need, plenty of time to figure out clever ways to get what you want.<p>As capitalism proves, human ingenuity is the real wealth, and that is only limited by time.
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yan
If it was just on most efficient, this would be a very different forum. I
think the primary thread of discussion is to talk about what we love and what
drives us, treating financial gain as a side-effect.

~~~
yters
I see zero posts about becoming financially free. I see many posts about
startups, the stock market, and getting burnt out by programming jobs that
control what people think and do. Try posting something about being depressed
here, and see how many upvotes it gets. Or, look at my submission history.

This does not look like the posting pattern of people who are satisfied with
their freedom.

Here's a recent example:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=454316>

Do people here sound satisfied with their work, and merely talking about their
diverse interests? Or does the allure of the startup draw them?

~~~
yan
I don't think I have a firm grasp on what you're asking.

Why is there more complaining than praise? That's just human nature. Also,
paying attention to the bad is more productive than to the good. People are
always looking to improve.

Why the seeming disconnect between doing things you love and start ups? A
start up, with its associated (hopeful) monetary stream not only lets you work
on what you love, it also frees up time from doing what you have to in order
to stay financially afloat. So, just having interesting hobbies is very sub-
optimal.

~~~
yters
It is your last point I am getting at. You seem to agree that the reason
people are interested in startups is for freedom. Specifically financial
freedom, meaning freedom to devote work to things other than the financial
bottom line for living.

So, what I am saying is that since we want freedom, we need to think about the
best ways for becoming free. Everyone assumes best = startups, but no one has
really discussed the issue to see if this is right. Startups are notoriously
undependable vessels of financial freedom, so that doesn't make sense to me.
Why accept the status quo?

I'll put together a plan in a month or so and post it, hopefully generate more
discussion.

------
cperciva
_Most of us here want to become financially free. This is what draws us to
talk about start ups, finances, and the like._

You're oversimplifying. Most of us here want to build cool stuff. Becoming
financially free is certainly something which makes building cool stuff a lot
easier, so to that extent it's worthwhile; but startups would be attractive
due to the drive to build cool stuff even if there was no chance of them ever
being profitable.

~~~
yters
What does a startup have to do with building cool stuff? The startup aspect
seem mainly a diversion to me: networking, raising support, handling
customers, etc. I see many posts talking about how well a particular startup
is doing, but does anyone talk about how fun it is to do startupish stuff?

~~~
cperciva
I have yet to see anyone here say that they _enjoy_ raising money from VCs. As
for customers, the best I've heard people say about them is that occasionally
customers make interesting suggestions.

Running a startup might not mean that _all_ of your time is spent building
cool stuff, but it's probably better than working at <insert big company
here>.

~~~
yters
And that's my point regarding financial freedom. People want to form a startup
for freedom to work on cool stuff more often. But, why go that circuitous
route instead of pursuing financial freedom directly? The startup route only
makes sense if it is the most effective way of achieving financial freedom.
But, no one here is discussing the most effective way. People just assume
startups and go from there.

~~~
arockwell
What's a more efficient way to financial freedom than creating and selling a
startup? Probably the only other realistic alternative was becoming an
investment banker, but I don't think anyone is going to argue for that one
right now.

~~~
yters
Yeah, startups are known to not be a very dependable route to financial
freedom. On the other hand, it doesn't cost too much to live overseas or in
certain places in the US. Most here are programmers or other creative types,
and it does not cost much to pursue such interests either. It comes down to
standard of living and relationships.

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miloshh
When I keep thinking which other, more efficient ways of achieving financial
freedom you might have had in mind, I cannot help the word _fraud_ popping up.
I'm sure that's not what you meant, but I have no idea what you did mean. :)
Investment banking? Consulting?

~~~
yters
No, illegal is bad. I could not be happy if I were freeing myself at the
expense of others.

One route I have in mind is living overseas. According to my calculations, it
should be possible to save up enough money over, say, about 5 years, to live
entirely off the interest in a less developed country. However, less developed
does not mean bad. The majority of my childhood was spent in a third world
country. I greatly enjoyed it, and it was much less developed than what I have
in mind. Also, I think there are places in the US that are just as affordable,
but I haven't researched the issue much yet.

Here is a bit of research I've done. I need to take into account more
variables, and be a bit more rigorous, but it seems a plausible method.

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=122341>

------
Harkins
This would be more persuasive if "Money" were in the lead in your poll.

~~~
yters
Freedom is in the lead, which is my point. The biggest enslavement we tend to
have is financial.

~~~
Harkins
I took the "money" option to mean, well, money, amd "Freedom" to mean picking
one's own tools, projects, hours, coworkers.

I guess if you want to redefine any others, too, your case would be even
stronger.

~~~
yters
That's fair. I would still consider start ups as a form of financial freedom
where instead of having no financial concerns to interfere with my real
interests I use my real interests to offset my financial concerns. But,
clearly the concepts are not as distinct as I've been making out.

------
yters
Also, I know I worded the title a bit strongly, but I wanted to attract
attention. If you have a better suggestion, I can change it.

------
jodrellblank
Startups may be undependable, but I'm dismissive that there's a dependable way
to become financially free unless you go down the self-sufficiency route.

After all, if it was _dependable_ (no-risk) who wouldn't be doing it already?

