
The human cost of the Kindle - kawera
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/09/human-cost-kindle-amazon-china-foxconn-jeff-bezos
======
JDiculous
A lot of people here are saying that although their poor working conditions
are unfortunate, those jobs are better than whatever alternative they would've
otherwise had. However if those same workers were U.S. citizens in the United
States, then for whatever reason a lot of you would then take it more
seriously.

Morality should not be restricted by geographic borders.

~~~
malmsteen
It's just not a company's job to care about morality, only to optimise to
maximise gain. It's the law's job.

Saying this is not taking sides or being "cynical" or "capitalistic". The
point is if you want change you have to FIGHT to change laws and make them be
enforced (through lawsuits / unions). It's always a power struggle and you'll
stay on the weak side if you keep screaming "morality" at corporate entities
and rely on their good will to enforce workers right... Saying otherwise is
deluding other people and/or yourself of reality, but i guess it feels good to
feel on "the right side" without actually doing anything.

source: many family members in unions who fought for their rights in france

~~~
loco5niner
>It's just not a company's job to care about morality, only to optimise to
maximise gain. It's the law's job.

It's everyone's job.

~~~
malmsteen
> It's everyone's job.

it's every PERSON's job yeah. not companies.

------
shubhamjain
Compare this to India, where you could be a daily wager working 14-16 hours
days, no weekends, no benefits, on something that might be back-breaking,
hazardous, and pays just enough to get by. Your employer could abuse you, dock
your pay, and would barely spend anything to make your job safe. Work might
include cleaning swears without any safety gear, labouring under a sweltering
45C weather, or working in hazardous factories.

I am not espousing the inhuman treatment of these workers. However, for many
people in India and around the world, this would be an order of magnitude
improvement of their lives. I think China is on the right track. The working
conditions would get better as the economy grows. The injustice might seem
appalling, but have you wondered what the alternative is?

~~~
knuththetruth
>The injustice might seem appalling, but have you wondered what the
alternative is?

Yeah, wealthy people not living like space-age Caligulas on the backs of
disenfranchised poor people. Seems like a pretty good alternative to me.

~~~
wycs
Where do you think wealth comes from? It is the product of knowledge and
institutions and economic growth. It is not always off the backs of others. In
fact most of it is not. We are about a hundred times wealthier than we were
before the industrial revolution. We can’t have stolen this wealth as not the
smallest fraction of it existed in all the world before the industrial
revolution.

If we deny these people the prospect of working in factories we are doing them
no favours. How is removing demand for their labor going to make them
wealthier?

It is not the sweatshops fault these people are poor. It is their poverty that
makes a job you find unappealing appealing for them. By all means lobby to
increase foreign aid. By all means donate cash via Give Directly.

But don’t think for a moment you are enriching these people’s lives by
reducing the demand for their labor. Such thoughts are economic insanity.

~~~
dnomad
> Where do you think wealth comes from?

In this case it's very clear where wealth comes from: Bezos and the rest of
the Amazon shareholders are severely underpaying these workers in violation of
China's labor laws. Did you read the article?

> We can’t have stolen this wealth as not the smallest fraction of it existed
> in all the world before the industrial revolution.

The capacity for self-deception is always a bit surprising. Confronted with a
clear and concrete case of labor exploitation and wage theft you insist, never
the less, it is not labor exploitation and wage theft. _That_ is economic
insanity.

> How is removing demand for their labor going to make them wealthier?

There's no need to appeal to vague self-serving questions. The impact of labor
standards on global trade have been studied and their impact can be
quantified. Here, in particular, the California Effect [1] has been proven to
be very effective in increasing labor and environmental [3] standards around
the world. California alone could likely help here a lot by demanding
regulatory advertising on these products. The first step would be to educate
American consumers so they understand the enormous suffering that goes into
these products.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_effect)

[2] [https://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/28/opinion/free-trade-by-
its...](https://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/28/opinion/free-trade-by-itself-can-
lift-labor-standards-abroad.html)

[3] [https://www.nature.org/magazine/archives/the-california-
effe...](https://www.nature.org/magazine/archives/the-california-effect.xml)

~~~
ymolodtsov
Neither Amazon nor Bezos do not py them directly. They pay Foxconn for
assembled devices. If they paid more, Foxconn would probably just have better
margins.

~~~
ibotty
Not, if they demand better working conditions in their contracts.

------
solidsnack9000
It's hard to understand why people choose to put others in these conditions.
For example, who makes the decision not to pay overtime and why? It will save
one dollar and thirteen cents an hour. What could this possibly amount to, in
the cost of a Kindle?

Perhaps this is due entirely to the race to bottom inspired by competitive
pressure -- the various bidders all trying to find a way to offer Amazon the
lowest bid -- or perhaps it is due to internal pressures, where managers can
be rewarded for finding savings that are significant relative to the cost of a
certain phase in the process, even if it is of little consequence for the cost
of the final device.

~~~
adamsea
Imho part of it is that responsibility for the choice is distributed. This
makes it easy for everyone (including us Kindle buyers) to say to themselves
“it’s not my fault and I’m just going along with what is.”

~~~
solidsnack9000
Maybe then the solution relates to that, as well. Just choosing not to buy
Kindle won't, as an uncoordinated action, make any difference. Even if it were
coordinated, not doing something doesn't generally paint a picture of what
exactly to do. We want Kindles to be made, and we want people to be treated
well in doing so, and we have no idea how to organize for such a thing to
happen.

------
ekianjo
how about the human cost of everything we buy then? Most of it is made in
China anyway. Why single out Amazon and Bezos?

~~~
smacktoward
Jeff Bezos is literally _the richest human being on Earth._ If anyone could
afford to pay his workers a fair wage, it's him.

~~~
twblalock
What's a fair wage for his employees? How much more would it be than what they
are currently paid?

Are people entitled to wages higher than the prevailing market rate simply
because their employer is capable of paying such wages? Do you really want to
live in a world where employees of rich people get paid more than employees of
more average people? The vast majority of workers would not be lucky enough to
work for a really rich guy and would be paid less for the same work than the
few who do. That seems less fair than everyone being paid the market rate.

~~~
hallman76
You seem to be approaching this from some sort of market optimization
perspective where a race to the bottom is a good thing.

Consider what might happen if Amazon paid their workforce 5% more than their
competitors instead of paying bottom dollar. Competition for that higher wage
would improve the quality of their workforce (and then produce a higher
quality product). Other employers would them also compete to get quality
workers.

~~~
twblalock
From the standpoint of fairness, why should a worker at Company A make more
than someone who does the same job at Company B, simply because the owner of
Company A is richer than the owner of Company B? That's what I don't like.

I'm sure Amazon would be willing to pay more to well-qualified workers than to
less-qualified workers. But that's not the type of argument I was responding
to. The parent comment suggested that Bezos should pay his employees more
simply because he can afford to.

I don't see how it's reasonable to base employee wages on the wealth of the
company owner -- if Amazon stock tanked and Bezos lost a lot of money, should
he cut employee wages? If not, then why should he increase wages when his
personal wealth increases? It would be better for employee wages to be based
on the employee's skills, not the employer's personal financial circumstances.

~~~
yorwba
Company A can't directly increase the pay of workers at Company B. But A _can_
increase the pay of it's own workers, making it more desirable than working
for B. The increased competition on the labor market requires B to raise their
wages as well. All workers win.

The equilibrium may still not end up with A and B paying the same, but
personally I care more about everyone having _enough_ than everyone having the
same, so even unequal wage increases are a positive in my book.

------
booleandilemma
This isn’t a problem with Amazon so much as it is a problem with the system
Amazon operates in.

~~~
ipsum2
Wrong. Amazon can pick a factory that treats their workers ethically.

Imagine if Nike said that in regards to paying for child labor.

~~~
jaredklewis
And thanks to the guardian, we (the consumers) can choose companies that pick
factories that treat their workers ethically. Lest we lose our moral high
ground.

------
jeffbax
I find these articles more likely to make me numb to actual abuses because
they're so one dimensional and banal.

At the end of the day, these are of the highest paying jobs in the country.
"Fair pay" is highly relative and these jobs are slowly and surely helping to
build up the Chinese middle class.

Progress is slow, and simply trying to graft the standards of Western
societies onto places way behind is tone deaf to reality. Chinese PPP actually
higher than USA which considering where the country was only 50 years ago
should be seen as a great accomplishment [http://www.ibtimes.com/china-
economy-surpasses-us-purchasing...](http://www.ibtimes.com/china-economy-
surpasses-us-purchasing-power-americans-dont-need-worry-1701804)

This article is just a hit piece void of any actual economics because it's hip
to hate on rich people, in particular one who got there by grinding out
efficiency at a desk made from 2x4 for years before the success started.

Hell, when I was 16 working in a kitchen finally making money I did everything
I could to get overtime and my goal was hitting 60 hours a week.

These countries will change at their own pace, and Bezos or Apple aren't evil
for being of the best jobs in a given country.

------
azzurromia
Leaking roof and broken bathroom light at their dorm? The investigator should
really go check the workers living condition at home to know it’s already an
improvement. Don’t hold the same western labor standards to the Chinese
manufacturers, give them time and guidance to do better, and most importantly
do not take the workers jobs away.

------
colechristensen
You know what I would like to see?

Tariffs on countries with sub-standard working conditions and environmental
practices.

~~~
ekianjo
Thats basically a tariff against developing countries you are asking for. How
do you think the West got rich in the first place? With 30 hours work weeks?

~~~
colechristensen
>How do you think the West got rich in the first place?

By increasing productivity through industrialization and technology
advancements, and by doing those things before the rest of the world. (and by
having economic systems that accomplished this faster/more effectively than
others, possibly also as the result of plagues that decimated the population a
few times)

~~~
icelancer
>> By increasing productivity through industrialization and technology
advancements, and by doing those things before the rest of the world.

You seem to be ignoring the human labor part that happened around then and the
backbreaking work that they did. Robots didn't get it done nor did the 40 hour
work week.

~~~
colechristensen
Increases in productivity would have been _faster_ with shorter work weeks,
but would have been detrimental to the wealth concentration such is the cost
of capitalism. Reduction of hours is, to a point, a source of growth.

------
RyanShook
I have very mixed feelings about working conditions in emerging economies. It
feels good to single out Amazon but all of us who own a smartphone or own part
of the S&P 500 benefit from this reality as well.

------
hawkice
> Most earn between 2,000 and 3,000 yuan, with permanent staff earning between
> 2,000 and 2,500 yuan. In 2017, the average wage for a worker in Hengyang was
> 4,647 yuan a month.

Math... my brain... what is happening...

~~~
zoul
I think what the sentence says is that the Amazon factory pays well below the
city average?

------
tzs
> It is known locally as the Wild Goose City, for the birds that used to stop
> off on their southerly migration

Used to?

I found this article about geese populations dwindling in China:
[https://www.theverge.com/2017/5/22/15675010/china-wild-
geese...](https://www.theverge.com/2017/5/22/15675010/china-wild-geese-
migration-wetland-conservation-environment)

I wonder if that's why they no longer come to Hengyang?

------
adamnemecek
I wonder if there's market for ethical electronics. Basically buy the same
electronics and sell them at higher price and give the money to the people
working at said factories. If there was legit proof that the money is going
where it should, I would totally pay like 15-20% extra.

~~~
djsumdog
It would involve removing planned obsolescence. An ethical cellphone would be
one where every part is user serviceable and standardized. The Fairphone is
having trouble even keeping manufactures producing stock for their older
phones. There is so much value in keeping people replacing their devices every
two years that I doubt we'll see PC/ATX style standardization in mobile
hardware.

~~~
ipsum2
You're conflating "treating workers ethically and paying them a living wage"
with "phones should be standardized". Two completely different topics.

~~~
emodendroket
Might be harder to have disposable culture with high wages though

~~~
twblalock
> Might be harder to have disposable culture with high wages though

How so?

If anything, I would be more inclined to buy the latest and greatest tech
every year if I had more money to spend. I think most consumers would do the
same.

~~~
emodendroket
Substantially more expensive goods?

------
mwcampbell
So what do we do about this? Should I cancel my Prime membership and never
order from Amazon again?

~~~
ocdtrekkie
I would, in general, recommend cancelling Prime. You can get better deals
often elsewhere, so you might as well remove the default-to-Amazon behavior
Prime gives you. You can still order on Amazon with free shipping for orders
over $25 anyways. And Walmart will do free two-day shipping for orders over
$25, making Prime mostly useless. Add some ship to store options for Target
and Best Buy... There's nice non-Prime options out there.

~~~
arentiright
Be honest.. although not always the cheapest.. Does anybody keep your credit
card safer than Amazon online? And who wants to sign up for a new account with
some random company. If the shit hits the fan, Amazon will cover me as a
customer.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
1\. Amazon has a HUGE scamming problem right now. Fraudulent listed items are
a big deal, combined with legitimate listings, so it's hard not to get
suddenly overcharged or sold a cheap knockoff. Your credit card number might
be safer, but your actual money probably isn't.

2\. You're not responsible for fraudulent charges, so worrying about major
retailers having your credit card number isn't really reasonable. I don't
recommend saving your credit card in any store website. Enter it each time so
they can't store it.

------
rplst8
We could have robots do the work. Would that make everyone feel better?

------
SZJX
Foxconn and similar manufacturers are always the favorite topic for western
media. But the reality is complicated. The bottom line is that in most cases
there's no slave labor taking place and nobody forces those workers to stay
there. I have a relative who works in a Foxconn factory in Sichuan. She had a
lot of other jobs before. She works there not because he's being forced like a
slave or whatnot, but simply because Foxconn pays very good salaries compared
to other options that she has (this manufacturer in Hengyang might be
underpaying but this does not automatically mean that every factory does the
same).

Yeah, the hours are very long compared to western standards. I also much
prefer the way the Europeans find work-life balance. But that is because you
are already a very rich society and you can afford that. Also there is also a
cultural and historical difference. In China, or Korea, or Japan, wherever in
East Asia, working long hours is very normal, be it for low-level workers or
high-level executives. This is just a part of the culture. Without it, how
could China which was so poor 40 years ago become rich and powerful again this
fast? Even the US is much more workaholic than Europe, without the mandatory
one-month holiday etc. If you imagine that Foxconn workers are subjected to
slave-like treatments as if they were in a plantation or a mine, you can't be
further from facts. Yes, I personally prefer to have a better work-life
balance, but that's because I can already make the choices. For many
underprivileged populace in China, working for Foxconn is the best possible
opportunity they can get.

Of course I also do acknowledge that even though there's no essential slavery
the work conditions can and shall be improved, especially now that China has
got a lot richer already. In a sense the industrialists during the industrial
revolution can also argue that they were not really forcing workers into
"slavery", but the workers had actually no choice whatsoever since every
workplace was the same (the modern Chinese factories are definitely much
better than those places in the 18th century though). Anyways just wanted to
offer a different perspective here. If you actually go there and talk to most
of the workers I believe you'd hear a similar answer to that offered by my
relative, i.e. they just want to save up some money when they can and this
opportunity is as good as it can get under the current social circumstances.
They'll likely return to their hometown to start something else after working
such a job for a while. I do also believe that the accelerating social
inequality in China is a problem that has to be addressed and there should be
many more opportunities for the poor. But that's in a way similar to what's
happening in the US and not something fundamentally/qualitatively different.

------
kerng
I wonder at one point Bezos will start giving back. Will he became a Bill
Gates or be more like Larry Ellison? At the moment it seems more the later...

~~~
arentiright
Bezos has spent hundreds of millions of dollars trying to advance humanity...
See blue origin and organizations like Mary's Place

~~~
saagarjha
Blue Origin is not philanthropy.

~~~
randyrand
For some people they would consider it as such.

~~~
tptacek
Those people are wrong.

It's maybe early yet to talk about what Bezos is going to do with his fortune;
Amazon isn't all-grown-up yet. It's still possible he's going to go in the
Gates direction, and I think it's much to early to say he's going in Ellison's
direction.

But that doesn't make everything we like him doing an act of philanthropy.

------
arentiright
If multiple companies give you a quote.. Who wouldn't take the best offer?

Also.. If the job if so bad.. then do something else

~~~
adamnemecek
An ethical person.

~~~
arentiright
I would not invest in your business or give you a loan. Good luck to you.

