
10 Downing Street: Treatment of Alan Turing was "appalling" - handelaar
http://www.number10.gov.uk/Page20571
======
rw
I've been saying for a while that Turing's premature death set back
mathematics by years, if not decades. :(

Discrimination still happens to a large enough degree (gender, race and class)
that we're shooting ourselves collectively in the foot by not enabling people
to contribute as much to society as they are able.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Complete speculation but it's possible that, being Freudian for a moment, the
childhood loss and trauma that led Turing to pick-up teenage boys for casual
sex was the driving force that pushed him to pursue mathematics to such a
degree.

~~~
seldo
What "childhood loss and trauma" was it that led Turing to find nineteen-year-
olds attractive, exactly? I'm pretty sure most people find people in their
late teens and early 20s attractive.

Complete speculation here, but your use of "boys" makes it sound like you
conflate Turing's actions with paedophilia. The ongoing and statistically
inaccurate association of homosexuality with paedophilia is one of the reasons
public actions like this one affirming that one can be both homosexual and
legally and morally respectable are still necessary.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Most sexual relationships, feel free to prove me wrong, don't have a 20+ year
age gap. Sorry but in my locality teenagers (yes 19 is teenaged) are referred
to as "teenage boys" (as opposed to teenage girls, boys being a male
descriptor) or "youths" as well as "young men".

The large age gap brought to mind the pederastic (not necessarily paedophilic)
relationships of Greece BCE - Socrates apparently railed against older men
consumating such relationships.

Morcom's death appears to have been a pivotal moment in Turings formative
years - my Freudian speculation was that Turings attraction to younger men,
teenagers, could have been an attempt to chase the relationship of his youth
that ended so abruptly; much as middle-age men are want to chase younger women
as an attempt to recapture their youth.

It also seems right that having left his parents and arrived in bording school
only to have his only real friend taken from him by death could well have
spurred Turing on into his studies whilst social success may have led him to
fritter away his gifts, ignore his studies and follow more worldy pursuits.

~~~
teeja
"Most sexual relationships, feel free to prove me wrong, don't have a 20+ year
age gap."

There's no need to prove wrong a statement based on speculation.

Gay men, go ahead and prove me wrong, are no more likely to have relationships
with wide age disparities than homosexual men.

Besides: what of it? Most people don't have an IQ over 130 either. Most people
don't drive Jaguars. Most people don't have a second home overseas. What's
that a measure of? NORMALCY?

I agree that sometimes people who are hurt in life-at-large turn to inward
pursuits in order to avoid further pain. It's certainly true that a lot of
professional scientists have little or no use for 'social success', and see
most of us as quite foolish, unreasoning creatures. But I don't think of their
success as an excuse to run around torturing young men ... or driving older,
very successful men to suicide after decades of loyal and very valuable
service.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Statements based on speculation are not automatically wrong and so if you wish
to _show_ they are wrong then you need to prove it. Your first sentence is
specious at best and not really that as even a priori it strikes me as poor
logic.

Did you mean _no more likely [...] than heterosexual men_?

The best stats I can get are from "The Demographics of Same-Sex 'Marriages' in
Norway and Sweden" however they don't relate particularly to the Midlands of
England in the 1950s. They show that indeed about 34% of homosexual male
registered relationships in their study have a 10+year age gap (vs. 9% for
heterosexual marriage) but account for this by the greater age of those
entering registered homosexual relationships.

So yes "older men with younger" is apparently a more common homosexual pattern
[in modern Sweden amongst officially recognised partnerships] but that's not
really relevant as we're not considering a population but a specific case -
stats don't show anything certain about individual members of a population. So
this apparent Ephebophilia may have been a more specific fixation (which was
my speculation) - Turing's crush died tragically at 18, the lad he was
arrested for having a tryst with was 19.

Like I said, it's speculation. There doesn't appear to be anything ruling it
out.

Two side points:

"Normalcy", yes statistics indicate "normalcy", the age gap is unusual.
Deviations from normalcy often have interesting phenomena behind them - I had
a BBQ this evening, that's unusual, the reason why we chose to sit outside and
eat, cooking over charcoal, indicates something about my character.

I don't understand your reference to "torturing young men" what are you
getting at there?

~~~
jacquesm
Have you considered that one of the reasons why gay men do not particulary
care about 'age gap' or anything like that is because they are not going to
have kids so do not have to take turns in nurturing one or more infants from
birth until they're 18 or so ?

And as for whether or not it is normal between heterosexual people to have an
age gap that large, I know personally of a couple that differed 30 years in
age, the irony is that she was the younger one but died in her early 50's of a
heart attack (and her widower is still alive today at 90+).

Normalcy is whatever people do, you can not compare heterosexuals and
homosexuals as a group and expect to come up with the same answers with
respect to things like this because they are two fundamentally different
lifestyles.

This has effect on all those things you seem to want to compare them to in
order to prove them to be abnormal, which seems to be your main point of
interest here.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
My main points of enquiry were: 1) was Turing openly homosexual back in the
days of Bletchley Park - those homosexuals around now that new him say he was
but this seems quite bizarre when you consider that his fiancee who he also
worked closely with did not know, she may (as I suspect) have realised that he
had those tendencies before he said, but that's not being openly homosexual. I
think he was probably bisexual but more probably fixated on a specific person.
Which brings us to 2) was his relationship as a 40 yo with a 19 yo typical of
his relationships and is that an indicator of my hypothesis that he was
fixated.

To a lesser extent I'd also be curious to know if (3) had he been having an
affair with a girl 20 years his junior in that time period (1950s) then how
would society have treated him?

Age difference can and has been compared across all types of sexual
relationship - your comment is like saying fitness can't be compared between
vegetarians and omnivores as their fitness is bound to be different, I
disagree. Youths are more impressionable and easier to "corrupt" than older
people with more self-knowledge and experience.

A large proportion of heterosexual relationships don't result in children and
homosexuals are now able to adopt so nurturing ability is not a clear
difference that would allow age-gaps in one sector of society and not in
another.

One of the points of social pressure to long term relationships, particularly
in the 1950s and before, would be reducing the spread of disease. Syphilis
killed something like 1 in 6 children in the early 1900s. Thus, sexual
relationships outside of marriage were strongly discouraged in the middle
classes, it was not primarily a question of children - my point is that I
don't think Turing would have faired much better if he were a heterosexual
ephebophile.

Normalcy here is only relevant as an indicator, most of us are abnormal in
some way, if I wished to prove Turing abnormal then I'd answer the question
"how many were awarded an OBE in the war for doing maths?".

------
TravisLS
Congratulations to jgrahamc on making this happen. This apology was long
overdue and would not have happened without your effort.

~~~
jgrahamc
Thanks. It's quite a surprise to actually have this happen.

And it was more of a surprise when my mobile phone rang and a Scottish man
said "Hello John. It's Gordon Brown."

~~~
rms
That's awesome. In the USA, you get "Please hold for the President of the
United States".

~~~
jgrahamc
Actually it went like this: the phone rang and a woman called Kirsty who I'd
had previously spoken to said "Gordon would like to talk to you" and then
Gordon was on the line...

------
bravura
"In 1952, he was convicted of ‘gross indecency’ - in effect, tried for being
gay. His sentence - and he was faced with the miserable choice of this or
prison - was chemical castration by a series of injections of female hormones.
He took his own life just two years later."

Yes, and he killed himself by eating a cyanide-laced apple. This poetic method
of suicide allowed him, as one final gesture, to give his mother the comfort
of thinking her son's death was accidental. His mother maintained that her
little Alan was always tinkering in the lab, and it was most likely an
accident that his apple became contaminated with the cyanide that killed him.

~~~
staunch
It's also possible that he was assassinated. We'll probably never know for
sure.

~~~
jacquesm
"Alan Turing, the man who knew too much", by David Leavitt.

The speculation goes that if Turing was a homosexual he was a security risk.
I'm not sure what to make of that though, after all he was no longer allowed
to work with the machines which were advancing very rapidly indeed.

Similar rumours keep cropping up about David Kelly.

The problem is that with such a lack of transparency even if these are
nonsense there is no way to debunk them, that alone gives them a semblance of
credence. As you said, we'll never know.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
If Turing had been heterosexual and had gone out to the cinema to pick someone
up and then invited them back to his house for sex .. that too would have been
seen as risky behaviour likely to lead to being snared in a honey trap, no?

Presumably the situation of his arrest wasn't the first time he had acted in
this way.

~~~
jacquesm
The circumstances are quite different.

From what I know about the case, and I've only read a book or two on it and
quite long ago, the friend that Turing took home later broke in to his house
or something to that effect. Turing reported to the police and in the process
of the investigation the whole thing spilled out.

So, even if it wasn't the first time he acted that way it doesn't really
matter because there is 0 proof that Turing was 'blackmailable' because of his
sexuality.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
The whole situation appears to have been an attempted blackmail, Turing meets
a teenager at the cinema in the week and invites him back to his for sex, they
meet that weekend (with another person IIRC) and have sexual relations and the
youth takes some of Turings possessions (money can be a possession, Secret
government docs can be too(!), something was taken) presumably under the
belief that Turing wouldn't report it due to their relationship -
approximating blackmail at least. Turing reports the larceny (theft of sorts)
to the Police, they ask him what the youth was doing there and Turing told
them. Resulting in Turing and the youth both being arrested.

I'd warrant there is no record anywhere to show this wasn't an attempt at
blackmail as part of espionage activities - but you're right he turned out not
to be blackmail-able in this instance as he went to the police. But one does
not know whether he was in a trap and realised it or not in a trap at all.

The MI6 file on this would make an interesting read I'm sure.

------
gstar
That's the most heartfelt thing I've read from Gordon Brown (or his aides) ..
fantastic. I'm very pleased that the apology was made.

~~~
ekanes
Actually, it could have been a little less "I'm proud to say" and "I'm pleased
to have the chance"...

When you(r country) messed up and it's your duty to apologize, don't be proud
and pleased. Simply be sorry.

~~~
jacoblyles
Given that neither Gordon Brown nor any members of the current government are
culpable in the brutal treatment of Alan Turing a lifetime ago, they are not
capable of making a sincere apology for that treatment. The only thing they
are capable of is in making a self-congratulatory statement that amounts to
"Look how much better we are today than our forefathers!". That is what this
is, and that is all they can give us. Anything else would be dishonest.

~~~
jacquesm
They could formally pardon him as well.

~~~
russss
I'm not sure there is any history of the UK government issuing posthumous
pardons.

~~~
jacquesm
There are actually plenty, such as a lot of people that were executed during
World War I for 'cowardice', there are others dealing with people wrongly
accused of crimes.

~~~
russss
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardon#United_Kingdom>

    
    
      Today the monarch may only grant a pardon on the advice 
      of the Justice Secretary (previously the Home Secretary)
      or the First Minister of Scotland (or the Defence 
      Secretary in military justice cases), and the policy of
      the Ministry of Justice and Scottish Executive is only to 
      grant pardons to those who are "morally" innocent of the 
      offence (as opposed to those who may have been wrongly 
      convicted by misapplication of the law)

------
brown9-2
Reading the PM's statement, is anyone else from the US struck by the feeling
that this kind of statement could never be made by the US govt in 2009?

~~~
shrikant
"I will never apologize for the United States of America ? I don't care what
the facts are."

\- <http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/George_H._W._Bush>

\- <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655>

Draw your own conclusions.

------
Jem
I didn't necessarily agree with the petition (that is, don't necessarily see
the point of posthumous apologies) but you did a fantastic job, jgrahamc.
Congratulations on making this happen.

~~~
jgrahamc
Thank you for that. Recognition from people who don't actually agree with me
is always very welcome.

------
jacquesm
So much for a posthumous knighthood I guess...

That's a real pity, it would have been nice to see this go one step further up
the ladder. But it is quite nice to see something this positive come from
jgrahamc's efforts.

~~~
nate_meurer
I agree. This statement is very good-- a sincere apology-- and I like that it
includes the details of Turing's conviction and sentence.

I want to see a knighthood though. By any standard, Turing deserves one.

~~~
jacquesm
And a full pardon as well, note that the statement by Brown is just an
apology, _not_ a pardon, so Turing remains a convicted criminal as far as the
law is concerned.

~~~
electromagnetic
Agreed, he will likely have to be pardoned before he would ever be Knighted.
(I'm unsure, does the Queen only pardon soldiers' crimes?)

~~~
jacquesm
interesting reading on that subject here:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardon#United_Kingdom>

~~~
electromagnetic
Thanks, I tried searching for something on it, but I believe I was idiot-
googling as I was in a rush.

Really the government needs to establish a procedure for posthumous pardons,
essentially a 'posthumously pardoned under present laws'.

------
ashwinl
A good 10 min. documentary excerpt on 'The Death of Alan Turing'
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7_WzNzHwJY>

"I am rather afraid that the following syllogism may be used by some in the
future

Turing believes that machines think Turing lies with men Therefore machines do
not think"

------
whirlycott1
I didn't know much about his life until I read "A madman dreams of Turing
machines," which is a great book about Turing and Godel. Tortured souls, both
of them.

------
springcoil1
Congratulations to all those who were behind this petition. As an Irish man
(educated in the UK) I now have slightly more respect for Gordon Brown.

------
philjackson
A spine-tingling read.

------
heycarsten
It's about time.

------
jodrellblank
[http://gregegan.customer.netspace.net.au/MISC/ORACLE/Oracle....](http://gregegan.customer.netspace.net.au/MISC/ORACLE/Oracle.html)

~~~
jacquesm
Thank you very much. Too long for me to read it now but I've read the first
chapter and it is quite a find.

------
s-phi-nl
How is this any more appropriate for Hacker News than President Obama's speech
to schoolchildren (<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=810399>)? It seems to
me that both are a national leader saying basically common things.

~~~
mkramlich
The Obama/school thing lacks either of the two major themes of this site (in
my eyes anyway): computing and entrepreneurship.

The Turing story has Alan Turing, one of the forefathers of modern computing,
and probably an idol, of sorts, to many of the readers here.

So on those grounds, yeah, I could see how the latter is much more appropriate
for this site.

------
thras
Whenever a politician apologizes to his voters for the actions of individuals
long dead towards other individuals long dead, I somehow fail to be impressed.

I suppose it is sort of interesting in a National Geographic, watch the
natives with their bizarre religious customs, type of way.

~~~
mkramlich
Agreed. I always have the same reaction.

Now if the perpetrators apologized I would be more impressed. But even if
those folks did, it still wouldn't bring him back. If the laws in Britain
today are already such that they couldn't do that sort of thing again legally,
then, this is even more of an irrelevant event. Just one particular
unfortunate situation that happened to one particular person a long time ago.

Of course, I hear there was this one guy who got literally nailed to a cross
for just talking to people, 2000 years ago, and people are _still_ talking
about that today. That really blows me away.

