
How to Have Healthy Relationships as a Developer - karlmcguire
http://smo.nu/how-to-have-healthy-relationships-as-a-developer/
======
owenversteeg
Personally, I don't think that having healthy relationships as a developer is
much different than having healthy relationships as anyone else. As with any
other technical job, it can be hard to explain exactly what your job is, but a
bit of humor and an ELI5-style explanation goes a long way.

One thing specific to programmers is the ability to whip up a little program
to help people. Someone spends an hour every day retyping lower-case data in
uppercase? Take ten seconds and write them a program. Someone complains how
they always forget to shut down their computer and waste electricity? Write
them a widget to shut it down at 1am each night.

When I take a bit of time to write programs for people I care about, people
are usually very grateful and vastly overestimate the difficulty of whatever I
just did. As always, relevant xkcd:
[https://xkcd.com/1425/](https://xkcd.com/1425/)

~~~
karlmcguire
Author here, I agree to an extent. As I said in the "Spend Time With Them"
section, a lot of developers also program as their hobby. In fact, you pretty
much _have to_ program in your free time in order to keep up with all the new
paradigms and frameworks.

Jobs that have been around a lot longer, like construction or accounting,
allow you to just leave your work when you go home.

In that way I think developers face a unique challenge. We all know how
prevalent burn out is in the industry, it's tough making sure relationships
don't burn out as well.

Thanks for the feedback!

~~~
xkcd-sucks
>In fact, you pretty much have to program in your free time in order to keep
up with all the new paradigms and frameworks

Lol no. If I'm coding it's not free time, and if I'm coding to learn it's
professional development, not recreation. "Coding is a lifestyle" is such a
scam.

~~~
ceit
User name xkcd-sucks. Not a fan of coding for fun.

Hackathons? Have you ever just wanted to write a web scraper in a new language
to see how it is different from your usual? Never coded a small video game?

Why are you a programmer then?

~~~
TheCapn
Do you ever find yourself interacting with a carpenter and asking him why he
doesn't build additions to his house, or his friend's homes in his free time?

What about an accountant? Ever quiz them or deride them for not going out of
their way to balance budgets and crunch numbers for family & friends?

Why is programming this anomaly to people where there's a necessity for you to
want to spend your personal hours doing what you do for 40 hours a week (or
more for many) professionally? If you don't make your life entirely centered
around your career you're obviously not a _real_ programmer despite many
people having lives outside their career still being extremely talented and
successful.

I think it's a lie we tell ourselves and perpetuate. People who sold their
lives to programming expect to surround themselves with others who've done the
same. You end up on the hiring side of an interview and you want the
candidates to have a portfolio of personal projects to show off because that's
what shows _dedication_. I get along best with the coworkers I have that have
a wide variety of interests because they're not a bore to talk to and get a
beer with. Jobs in the middle of nowhere are far more tolerable with those who
you can stand to be cramped in a room with for two weeks rather than the guy
who can only relate with RocketLeague anecdotes.

~~~
morgante
First of all, a lot of carpenters _do_ in fact work on side projects in their
free time. My dad certainly does.

We need to recognize that programming is a creative craft and the norm for
those _is_ to do it as a hobby.

Most musicians, including "professional" ones, play for fun as well. As do
dancers, poets, writers, artists, etc.

Do you think most academics leave "work," go home and never think about their
research again?

I have no problem with people who somehow decided to program despite not
enjoying it enough to do it in their free time. But they shouldn't attack
those of us who do for daring to spend our free time in a pleasurable way. And
they should accept that there's a simple reality that those of us who enjoy it
are going to spend more time at it and thus level up more quickly.

------
rjbwork
>Our brains automatically group similar memories together in order to save
space. As developers, years can feel like weeks if we don’t actively pursue
different experiences.

This hit me hard. Feels like the years have just slipped on by since I
graduated university.

Not particularly sure how to stop it though...maybe a few more years and I can
just take a few months off and travel or something?

~~~
dasboth
Try going analogue, find a hobby that doesn't involve a computer (music,
cooking, hiking etc.). I find if I do even a small amount of a few different
activities in a day, it feels a lot more _full_. A day spent coding, then
going home to cook dinner and read a book always feel better than a day spent
coding, then going home to browse the internet or even work on a coding side
project (if I get around to those, they're restricted to the weekend).

~~~
amelius
> Try going analogue, find a hobby that doesn't involve a computer (music,
> cooking, hiking etc.)

I would suggest to find a hobby that involves other people.

~~~
TheCapn
I would too. But that doesn't mean you can't take up a hobby that is done
alone but shared with a club. I got into car work and joined my local auto
club. We do meets, drives, and grab beers every once in a while and share
experiences or things we've done. EDIT: Not to mention the social point of "I
fucked up, who knows what they're doing and wants to share a case and fix this
mess"

I've been hired by a few friends-of-friends to build automation and although
the coding and electrical is done at my little workstation there's a local
maker group that I like to share my works with.

I always recommend picking up a hobby that has tangible products. Gaming and
Reading are all mind exercises. Doing something with your hands helps work the
body and when you've worked at something for long enough its much more visual
for how you've honed your craft. Its a different type of reward than coding
is. I don't know if I can describe the feeling it gives but it's different
somehow, and it's a good feeling to look down upon a physical creation with
pride.

------
pikachu_is_cool
I sometimes wonder how much my life would be different if I never got into
this. Programming is such a big part of my life now. I frequently consider how
much of my brain power goes to programming; and I have to say it's about 20%.
If there were five of me, one of them would basically be a computer.

I wonder what that fifth of my brain would have been thinking about for the
past 10 years, if not programming. Maybe it would have been dancing, or
painting, or soccer. Instead of context switching into thinking like a
computer, it'd be how to move my body around or how to meld colors together. I
feel like that would lead to a much more fulfilling life.

I used to program for fun in middle school. It was probably halfway through
high school when I stopped programming for fun. It was always that little
nagging voice in the back of my head: Play it safe. Programming is an in-
demand field! You're good at it! Look at all of that awesome shit you made.

At this point, the only "hobby" I have is programming. I don't even know what
else I like anymore.

~~~
mratzloff
_At this point, the only "hobby" I have is programming. I don't even know what
else I like anymore._

Well, that's on you, but the good news is that you can change that as soon as
you want. Why not start today?

~~~
pikachu_is_cool
I've been trying for the past 6 months, but I keep coming back to programming.
Old habits die hard.

~~~
pelhage
Keep trying new hobbies until one of them sticks! There will come a point
where you find a hobby that will fulfill you in ways that programming can not.

For me that is writing poetry and making music for myself, which I randomly
stumbled upon after having had so many other hobbies in the past besides
programming

------
bowmessage
What's it like to date / be married to another programmer? I've always
wondered if this would help or hinder the relationship.

~~~
ramblenode
I would love to see this as an Ask HN.

~~~
galfarragem
By experience, the answer is quite easy: when both have the same occupation it
gets boring very fast. It's much more enriching having the opportunity to
learn about a different field than coming home and continue to listen about
the same.

Rationally I would never pick somebody from the same field as me.

~~~
toyg
_> when both have the same occupation it gets boring very fast. _

It gets boring even when your occupations are so alien to each other, that
there's little you can share beyond bog-standard office gossip.

~~~
madelinecameron
Eh, we just don't talk about it.

My fiance works in a t-shirt printing shop and I work as a developer. I enjoy
hearing about his work, he enjoys hearing about mine but we know neither of us
could do what the other does.

------
jakobegger
I don't think this problem is unique to programmers. Everyone who works a lot
can get into this situation. If you spend 60h a week doing anything, whether
you code, or manage people, or lay pipes or sell houses or cut hair, you'll be
so absorbed in your work that you can't imagine other people will understand
all the intricacies of what you do; and frankly, in the time that's left of
the week, one might just be too exhausted to spend quality time with friends
and family...

------
thanatropism
LPT though: have friends at work but don't flirt with them.

I had a really good friend at work for a while but it always had this flirty
undercurrent. We both had SOs, but enjoyed the "office wife/husband" thing (my
real wife actually knew about it and was not jealous). Anyway, the
flirtationship thing makes you as vulnerable to criticism as an actual
relationship, so the occasional sarcastic tirade or bad mood day really hurts.
Long story short, we're not only no-longer-friends (this happen, I've worked
at the same place for so long some friendships are cyclical); we can't talk to
each other or work in the same open plan office. It's a small wonder no one's
been fired. Ultimately the drama/good feeling ratio doesn't work out.

~~~
Grishnakh
>LPT though: have friends at work but don't flirt with them.

I'm a software engineer, and a hetero male. Why would I want to flirt with
other men?

I frequently wish I had gone into another career (probably medical) so I could
try out this flirting with coworkers thing I keep hearing about.

~~~
thanatropism
Welp, a corollary of what I said is that it's better to flirt with people
outside of work.

~~~
Grishnakh
That'd be nice if I had some way of meeting people outside of work, besides
dating apps.

Are you one of those people who really thinks a grocery store is a place to
meet women?

~~~
thanatropism
Well, I don't think a grocery store is _not_ a place to meet women, but you
could try night clubs.

~~~
Grishnakh
Yeah, I've tried that: a bunch of drunks and really, really loud and bad
music. It isn't very much fun.

~~~
thanatropism
Let me try again: try night clubs that play music you like; that helps _a lot_
in winnowing the playing field and showing women of the type you'd enjoy
dating.

But hey, we're talking flirting, right? Finding fuck-friends is probably
easier with dating apps; and maybe one of those even converts into a
sweetheart. Flirting is really fun though.

~~~
Grishnakh
Music I like? I've never heard of a night club that plays 80s thrash metal,
70s hard rock, etc. It's always some horrible dance or pop music, or country.
I also don't drink (except maybe a half-glass of wine on rare occasion with a
nice meal at home), so I really don't see how the nightclub scene is any
better at finding someone I'd enjoy dating than a dating app, in fact at least
with the dating app I have a chance to find women who aren't alcoholics who
listen to shitty music.

So instead, I've been trying (during better weather than current conditions)
hiking groups on Meetup.com, since I do like hiking a lot, and would like to
find a woman who also enjoys hiking. That hasn't gone all that well; it seems
most of the people in these groups are retirement aged. I do see age-
appropriate women out hiking, but they're usually with a husband/boyfriend,
not in one of these groups. AFAICT, the single women in the age range I'm
interested in (30-45) in this area (DC) are not into hiking at all, but they
are into getting drunk from what I've seen of them downtown. And from what
I've seen on dating apps and OKCupid, the ones who aren't downtown socialites
are mostly Trump voters who spend their weekends at the gun range.

~~~
Grishnakh
BTW, I also like various classical and especially baroque music. I've never
heard of a nightclub that plays Vivaldi or Telemann.

------
jdminhbg
> Talk About Your Work

I strongly disagree with this one, although I'm not sure if my reasoning is
broadly or only personally applicable. The last thing I want to do at the end
of a long day of work is recap what I did. Even in the best-case scenario of a
day full of victories, it's just exhausting to try to relive all of them with
the added burden of explaining the decade-plus knowledge base you'd need to
understand why Problem X was so hard to solve. I'm much happier with a base of
other interests to talk about after work with a non-programmer instead.

~~~
asadlionpk
I understand your frustration but I disagree. You should try explaining your
work to a non-programmer. It's a challenge to 'dumb it down' and you only
succeed if you truly understand your work. Sometimes the non-programmer is
successful in suggesting a very possible solution which turns out to be a fun
conversation.

~~~
fatman13gg
Like Feynman said in this video [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMFPe-
DwULM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMFPe-DwULM), when trying to explain
how magnate works to the reporter.

I think it's hard for someone else to actually understand the problem when you
two are not in the same knowledge framework. Cause then she/he will be
perpetually asking the why and how question and being not satisfied.

edited.

~~~
justinhj
Nevertheless Feynman made many successful lectures to the public and
undergraduate students and was able to explain things as complex as quantum
electrodynamics in layman terms. Recently I tried explaining how Akka clusters
work and what partitions are to a completely non-technical colleague. Not only
was I able to explain the parts I understand well in a way that she
understood, I also quickly found out there are parts that I don't understand
at all.

------
ryanbertrand
Overall really simple changes to improve our daily life.

This had me laughing: (No, changing your Vim colorscheme doesn’t count as a
“different experience.”)

~~~
jbb555
Ha, I broke off half way though thinking "oooh I should change my vim
colorscheme!" Hehe

------
ganesh_hobbeez
When I look back, good times with family and friends brings happiness. :) When
I look back at the bad program written, feel like 'Did I write this so
studpidly?' brings sadness. :(

------
Kiro
> Relationships are a key part of being happy

Is this really true for everyone? I sacrificed my relationship because I
prioritize my projects and I've never been happier. I can't imagine getting
into another since it would mean compromises I'm not willing to make.

~~~
skeletonjelly
Probably an implied "good" modifier in there.

Good relationships are a key part of being happy.

Bad relationships...not so much

~~~
ams6110
I would disagree that this is the case for everyone. I think a small number of
people are happier without relationships.

~~~
skeletonjelly
Fair enough. What do you define a relationship as? I understood it as "any
repeated interaction with a person on a meaningful level"

------
aadilmfarooqui
That's a good tip to discuss the work with family when working at home on
weekends especially, as they have no idea of the problems a developer faces
when working remotely on weekends.

------
gersh
I don't think I really get how to have relationships. It seems a lot of
developers fail bad at relationships.

I see beauty in math and algorithms. I'm sick of people, who just see such
things only in dollar terms.

However, I think there is a greater cultural attack on technological
professionals. I feel like we are devalued as some sort of machine that cranks
out code. Many play into this as well. I don't think it is healthy.

~~~
munificent
> I'm sick of people, who just see such things only in dollar terms.

This statement is more accurate if you remove the comma. What you wrote makes
a blanket claim about all people (which is highly unlikely to be true for even
a majority). Without the comma, it's a useful heuristic for what kinds of
people you should avoid so that you can have a more fulfilling circle of
friends.

------
amelius
This could be relevant: [https://www.buzzworthy.com/research-shows-can-
empathetic-ana...](https://www.buzzworthy.com/research-shows-can-empathetic-
analytical-time/)

------
sakopov
I read articles like this and always find it fascinating that none of them
suggest simply stop doing what you do for work (or at least limit to a certain
extent) and enjoy other things in life. You want to have a healthy life? Get
away from the monitor and get outside. It's that simple no matter what you do.

------
daemonk
This pretty much applies to any technical field. Good advice.

------
Jean-Philipe
> Call your grandma, friend, dad, girlfriend, anyone

A bit offtopic, but the author seems to assume you are a straight coder guy.
This was probably not his intention though. Why not replace "girlfriend" by
something more neutral, like "your better half"? Being inclusive doesn't cost
much, really.

~~~
Philipp__
I think everybody got the point. The dude was writting blog about keeping
healthy social life, not sexuality. If we keep splitting it to atoms, it would
be pretty distracting experience for writter of any blog post. Being a little
bit inclusive doesn't cost much, but it could cost a lot if you go by your
logic for every other thing...

~~~
the_other
Is there a book or a list of ways to brush an issue under the carpet? This is
one of them, one of the most pernicious.

The language we use, __especially __the language we use casually, defines how
we appear. To those outside the predominantly straight white male clique of
programming, repeated exposure to these casual assumptions of stereotype pile
up and create a sense that those not fitting the stereotype are unwelcome.
Imagine if, every single day you had to drive around the same pothole in the
road into coming traffic: eventually, you 'd find a different route.

~~~
douche
Can we just not do this? Twisting every innocuous throwaway statement into
some covert form of oppression gets really tedious after a while.

"Come and see the violence inherent in the system. Help, help, I'm being
repressed!"

~~~
roninb
You're right. The point is that it's not a covert form of oppression, it's de
facto.

There _is_ a straight, white male clique-iness to the programming world. Most
blog posts assume the reader is a straight, white male. These are turn offs to
some people, whether conscious or not.

