
Montreal is taxing churches (2017) - seesawtron
https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/mobile/no-more-religious-exemptions-montreal-is-taxing-churches-1.3415164
======
hypersoar
Some commenters are pointing out that _all_ nonprofits are tax-exempt in the
United States. This is true, but religious organizations enjoy an extra
benefit. Secular non-profits have to apply for 501(c)3 status and then file an
annual return. Churches and the like are _presumed_ to be 501(c)3
organizations and have no filing or disclosure requirements, and the IRS is
loath to investigate them.

~~~
iso947
That’s sounds like corruption could easily happen, what’s the justification?

~~~
paulie_a
Do you want to be the one to persecute churches? That's what you will be
perceived as.

~~~
iso947
Why would “you must prove you aren’t fiddling the books Just like any charity”
be persecution in a non theocratic state?

------
forgotmypw17
Churches get a bad rap these days, for many reasons. I want to take a minute
to defend them. Right away, I want to say that I am not defending religion-
driven bigotry, nor megachurches, nor abuse.

I don't know about Canada, but in the U.S. churches are still where
communities meet, where people connect with the spiritual world, and also the
ones doing most of the "heavy lifting" on any kind of charity activity.

They are also generally nice and reasonably centrist-progressive, meaning
treating everyone respectfully, nor expecting you to sit through a sermon like
the old days. (I heard of one place where this may have been the case, but
never saw it myself.)

Food Not Bombs might have a weekly freegan cookout, but most of the e.g.
feeding people, distributing donated clothes, counseling without having to do
paperwork first, food banks, and so on, are done by churches, or church-like
organizations, or by people who met at church. There are some exceptions, like
in Western Mass and a few places in the Catskills.

Source: Traveled around the U.S. with no base income. I don't go out of my way
to take advantage of these things, but I'll go if a friend is going.

~~~
earthscienceman
This is such an important point.

It's going to go against the grain at hackernews, but taxing churches in the
US is a terrible idea. If you wanted to further the divide between the
"liberal city"/"conservative rural" American cultures, this would be a great
way to do it.

If you grew up in a rural area of the flyover states you would know that
churches form the backbone of these rural communities. For example, the church
in my hometown organizes youth gaming nights (yes, D&D style), widow support
groups, and hosts food drives along with so many more things. They're so poor
that every year they have a board meeting and the board divides up the
operating expenses that are unpaid and they pay them out of pocket. The board
members are 'well-to-do' community members with job titles like firemen and
teacher. If they were not tax-exempt, they would have to shutter.

This is not to condone or justify the negative impacts that some churches have
on this country, and religion often serves as a cloak for a lot of bad
cultural habits like racism. I understand why people want to combat abuses of
the non-profit status of the church, but taxing them is not the way to
accomplish this.

~~~
Galaxeblaffer
Maybe you could earmark the collected taxes for creating secular alternatives?
Or maybe create a system where people don't have to rely on churches and rich
people for charity.

~~~
enaaem
Churches provide much more than just money. Solace, peace, love, community
etc... I'd say this is more important than money.

I used to be a Christian. There are a lot of bad sides of Christianity and
that is why I left. But it does help many people and after studying Buddhism I
understand how the right approach to Christianity can bring a lot of peace to
believers:

Unconditional love. Many people grew up made to feel they had to earn their
parents' love.

Letting go of control. You can't control everything in life. Whatever is going
to happen is up to God now.

Forgiveness. When people ask for God's forgiveness, it helps them to forgive
themselves.

Gratitude.

~~~
rational_indian
I feel these things should exist without God. That is, they can be helpful to
non-believers too. But I am having a hard time creating secular versions of
these.

I think the root of the problem lies in the fact that God here is an abstract
entity with whom the believer communicates but no such abstract entity exists
for non-believers (duh!).

May be some form of general artificial intelligence can fulfil this role in
the future?

Real people can fulfil this role too but they are probably not abstract
enough. edit: And hence not "powerful" enough (to forgive, to protect etc.).

Just spit-balling here. Also not trying to offend anyone here.

~~~
wolfhumble
The purpose of being a Christian is to love God and to love your neighbour as
yourself. In if you wonder how far the love of your neighbour stretches, the
goalpost has ben set at the very end: Love your enemies.[See: Mark 12:30-31
and Matthew 5:44] And this follows and is natural because God is LOVE [1 John
4:7-21].

I have a hard time believing AI will fulfil this role. For would it be
optimized for gains here and now, or actions of sacrifice now that will be
payed back fully in an everlasting life and that is built on faith? :-)

And I must admit that love is hard and I mess up a lot! But i try to do the
same as is written here:

"Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it.
But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is
ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called
me heavenward in Christ Jesus."[Philippians 3.13-14]

~~~
Galaxeblaffer
What about all the people who are considered "sinners" ? There's no love for
them in the Bible

~~~
wolfhumble
If that was the case, I would be the last in line! ;-)

But God's whole purpose was to save sinners like me and you through Jesus
Christ: "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is
not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our
sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not
sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us". [1 John 1, 8-10 NKJV]

~~~
Galaxeblaffer
So hell is not a thing ? i'm confused ?

------
mmglr
IMO this post should not be on HN. Per the guidelines [1] "stories about
politics" are off-topic. I would consider this political for obvious reasons.

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
seesawtron
Here's the complete guideline:

"Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of
some interesting new phenomenon"

Did you purposefully leave out the full sentence? I would argue it is/was a
new phenomenon. Nevertheless, would like to hear why you think HN should be
exempt from political discussion anyways? We see thought-provoking discussions
here each day. This is one of the positive aspects of HN that I value that it
allows you to be politically and socially aware of ideas to get you out of
your role as an "engineer" or "hacker".

~~~
busterarm
Yes, hackernews will never pass up the opportunity to discuss highly divisive
content that will cause community drama.

Let's post about rent control while we're at it and really set off some
flamewars.

~~~
seesawtron
I thought you were against censorship as your bio says:

"Censors have never been on the right side of history. If you support
censorship, consider that you may be advocating evil."

If this was a sarcastic bio, then forgive me for misunderstanding.

~~~
busterarm
Censorship isn't the same as having community rules for positive discussion
and sticking to them. The latter implies consent -- if you don't agree with
the rules, participate and voice your speech somewhere else.

You can be a free speech absolutist and still think it's a bad idea to shout
fire in a theater. Being against censorship doesn't mean you welcome anyone
into your home to shout whatever the heck they want.

Also, perhaps you should review them again:

Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine.
Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets
more divisive.

Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says,
not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.

Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something
genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents.

Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A
good critical comment teaches us something.

Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. That
destroys the curiosity this site exists for.

------
jay_kyburz
I don't mind charities being exempt from paying municipal taxes on church
land, but I do object to things like Sanitarium making Weetbix and Peanut
butter, selling it in the supermarket, and not paying any company tax on
profits.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanitarium_Health_and_Wellbein...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanitarium_Health_and_Wellbeing_Company)

------
colordrops
Makes sense to me, and should be done in the US as well. Providing a tax
exemption is in a way the opposite of a separation of church and state. The
state is giving them special treatment.

~~~
ars
> The state is giving them special treatment.

No it's not. All non-profits are untaxed. If you are going to charge churches,
then charge all non-profits.

Personally I think that's a bad policy.

~~~
pravda
But non-profits have to pay property tax, right?

I don't think religious institutions have to pay property taxes.

Ok, I looked it up: “states subsidize religions to the tune of about $26.2
billion per year by not requiring religious institutions to pay property taxes
for property worth about $600 billion. This subsidy is of particular interest
because property taxes pay for services such as firefighting and police, which
religious institutions use the same as corporations and private citizens.”

~~~
ars
> But non-profits have to pay property tax, right?

No, non-profits do not have to pay property tax.

So by that measure states also subsidize non-profits. And your math does not
take into account the amount of services religions provide residents.

If you went by the internet religions do nothing except take money, but if you
visit the real world, religions are the backbone of social services in the US.

------
dmarchand90
What's bizarre to me is that they are tax free for worship (in my mind fair
enough). But get taxed for hosting community services, e.g., foodbank.
Definitely think usage in charitable functions warrants tax exemption as much
as service

~~~
randompwd
I don't think it's that bizarre. I find it quite subversive when a church
group does 'community events' when there are other organisations which those
church members could join to achieve the same result, without flying the
banner of $ideology.

See
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Souperism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Souperism)
for a more blatant historical take.

~~~
ficklepickle
That article says the practice was actually very rare, even though it features
very prominently in literature from the period. Maybe not the best example.

~~~
randompwd
Sure, thus my sentence saying 'blatant', not 'common' or 'widespread'.

------
Cantbekhan
Slightly off topic but I think it would be interesting to observe the German
example as I think it's a good "fair" system.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_tax#Germany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_tax#Germany)

" The church tax is only paid by members of the respective church. People who
are not members of a church tax-collecting denomination do not have to pay it.
Members of a religious community under public law may formally declare their
wish to leave the community to state (not religious) authorities. The
obligation to pay church taxes ends once such a declaration has been made.
Some communities refuse to administer marriages and burials of (former)
members who had declared to leave it. "

In many European countries, everyone (community member or not, believer or
firm atheist) has to pay full taxes to pay for the churches/synagogues and
mosques. Including the salary of priests. This in addition of them also not
being taxed due to their special status.

Despite not living in a theocracy, many are forced to participate directly in
a cult that might be of zero interest to them.

~~~
AdrianB1
In some countries, like mine, churches are funded by taxpayer money and they
are also allowed to have commercial activities with no taxes at all.

In a way there is the irony of atheists providing support for churches, but
it's just one of the ways the democracy fails with majority rules (55%
religious vote that non-religious people pay taxes for churches) and
governments as immoral institutions that exist to rule over people, not to
care about them.

------
neya
Churches are one of the biggest business entities in any part of the world.
Most churches are structured like a proper business entity (Eg. they have
equivalent of directors, CEOs and managers) and have revenue targets and KPIs
set.

Most churches are also located in some of the prime real estate of top tier
cities and I always wondered how they were able to afford paying $1500+/Sq.M
in a prime, central area.

About the charity work - I know for a fact the charity work the churches do
cost less than 10% of the income they make, I got this number from a former
church member who was a top level guy in his church. Given that churches are
anyway structured like a business entity internally and manage money like a
proper business, why shouldn't they be taxed as one?

It makes no sense to not tax them no matter how you try to justify it. If they
did get an exemption, so should Mc Donald's for giving away a free Cola bottle
with every $20 meal you get.

~~~
simonh
So churches should be taxed because they use effective organisational
structures and are well run? That’s a new one. You could say the same of well
run charities.

~~~
neya
You know the point I'm making - It's a business entity because it makes money
and manages money like any other business. Why shouldn't it be taxed?

~~~
wcarey
There are an enormous number of (small) churches that _don 't_ function as
business entities in the way you describe. Taxing churches would adversely
select against these, encouraging all churches to behave more like businesses.
It's unlikely to me that that's the outcome that _anyone_ wants.

If you think Christianity is broadly good and correct, the trend towards
business-like megachurches and celebrity pastors is deeply corrosive to the
faith.

If you think Christianity is broadly bad and corrupt, the trend towards
business-like megachurches and celebrity pastors entrenches and effectively
promulgates many of the religious ideas that you abhor.

------
Findeton
I am an atheist but I don't see how this is tech related or why it should be
in HN.

~~~
aliswe
Agree the content is very divisive but ah well I guess censoring is also not
sustainable.

------
kanobo
All orgs that have the ability to enrich their employees should pay their fair
share. I'm looking at you churches, charities and california golf courses...
The fact that mega churches got PPE forgiveness loans would make my blood boil
if I was a small business who didn't make the cut.

------
noisy_boy
Much needed step considering most religions are more business-like than faith-
focused.

~~~
ars
Your definition of "most" is rather suspect here. Obviously the "business-
like" religions get lots of press, but in the real world they are a tiny
minority.

------
wsh
This article was published in 2017. Have there been any more recent
developments?

~~~
mxcrossb
For the way the article is worded, it sounds like a lot of noise is being made
about some select reinterpretations of a law by bureaucrats. I would be
shocked if the situation hadn’t changed.

------
chunkyslink
They pay taxes in the UK and we still have functioning communities and
community groups.

~~~
koheripbal
Do other non-profits pay taxes (eg food banks)? Do mosques and temples also
pay tax?

------
danschumann
Wasn't there just a post about not posting political stuff? How does this
interest tinkerers or hackers?

------
Gatsky
Ok but personally I would have started with the people in the Panama papers.

~~~
quickthrower2
You can’t tax people with money!

------
LatteLazy
The issue with this is always the same: which taxes ddo you want them to pay?
Since most churches don't make a profit in the strict accounting sense, their
won't be much Corp tax. And (AFAIK) they already pay payroll taxes (the main
place church money. You could maybe tighten that up and make sure everyone is
declaring benefits (use of the private jet) properly. But the USA just made
that whole mess much more generous for CEOs so presumably a mega pastor would
benefit from the same allowances. So what's the plan here, sales tax?

~~~
tikhonj
Given the absolutely incredible amount of real estate churches own, I imagine
property taxes would be the big one.

------
hbarka
I acknowledge this is anecdotal but in the Bay Area CA I drive by many
churches (of different faiths) occupying large areas of land on prime hilltop
real estate. I’m astonished by this.

~~~
AdrianB1
I am astonished by your astonishment: churches were one of the first buildings
to create a nucleus of a new city, so you can say they created the value of
that estate out of an empty hilltop in the middle of nowhere.

~~~
scollet
A binding agent?

------
causality0
This is quite strange. In most jurisdictions both churches and nonprofit
organizations are exempt from taxes.

------
keiferski
To briefly make a few points:

\- Fundamentalism and literalism is a fairly modern phenomenon which is mostly
a Protestant reaction to the Enlightenment and the lionization of scientific,
empirical knowledge over other forms of knowledge. Early Christian leaders
didn't believe in literalism. In the Middle Ages, there was a fourfold method
of interpreting scripture. And so on.

 _Church father Origen (184-253 CE), due to his familiarity with reading and
interpreting Hellenistic literature, taught that some parts of the Bible ought
to be interpreted non-literally. Concerning the Genesis account of creation,
he wrote: "who is so silly as to believe that God ... planted a paradise
eastward in Eden, and set in it a visible and palpable tree of life ... [and]
anyone who tasted its fruit with his bodily teeth would gain life?"_

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_literalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_literalism)

\- There have been near-infinite forms of Christianity (and every other
religion) since their founding. To say that "Christianity is XYZ" is simply
wrong. It has embodied entirely different values at different times and the
Christianity of 2020 would be nearly incomprehensible to the Christian of 1600
or 1000 or 500. This is true even today.

\- Many of what are considered "humanistic" or "secular" values are more-or-
less directly traceable to the influence of Christianity. Universal value of
human beings, that is, that everyone has fundamental dignity, rights, the
ability to vote (democracy), and similar human rights concepts that have
Western origins are almost direct extensions of Christian thought. In many
ways, modern secular Western democratic society is post-Christian one, in the
sense that it's a direct extension, not a radical departure.

\- The concept of secularity has been redefined and come under attack in the
past few decades. See writers like Charles Taylor, who have argued that
secularity hasn't resulted in less religious beliefs, but merely their
multiplication and changing of form. This falls in line with other social
trends.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Secular_Age](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Secular_Age)

TLDR: It's complicated.

------
082349872349872
Next thing you know, they'll enforce smoking bans in church?

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TncdhLGjFTE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TncdhLGjFTE)

------
jakeogh
Perhaps they should worship the government?

------
bzb3
Will this also affect synagogues?

------
jariel
"As a result, many churches in Montreal that host community groups, such as
food banks, or Girl Guides or Boy Scouts, are facing mounting tax bills."

Those evil grifters, we need to clamp down.

------
jonny383
Much needed. USA should follow.

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/mormon-
church-...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/mormon-church-has-
misled-members-on-100-billion-tax-exempt-investment-fund-whistleblower-
alleges/2019/12/16/e3619bd2-2004-11ea-86f3-3b5019d451db_story.html)

------
abellerose
My whole life was destroyed by religion.

I suffered conversion therapy and could never get on hormone blockers young;
because of the nonsense faith results in from people with authority over
administering a medical treatment. As an adult I'm now trying every year to
afford surgeries I cannot afford while my peers save for homes. Also parents
disowned me and I have ptsd from the physical & mental abuse.

Nice to see religion coming to an end before my shorter life from it. Of
course it will out last me but I'm hopeful; as the younger generation is aware
of the countless injustice while malevolent people attempt to disguise
religion as what the "community" needs.

The facade known as religion should rot to nothingness with all the people
that forced it upon others.

edit: Yah religious patrons don't like it when victims of religion speak out.
Similar you all don't ever remedy the victims of what you support exist in
this cruel world because of people like you.

~~~
AdrianB1
I am an atheist, but I don't understand your blame on religion.

~~~
abellerose
How so? Do you need more detail from me or do you think people denying others
of medical treatment because of their religion isn't deserving blame on
religion. Do you have any idea why conversion therapy existed at all? I find
your statement about being an atheist irrelevant a well. I'm agnostic and I
find atheists to be just as irrational compared to religious people. You
cannot prove their is a god and similar to proving there isn't a god. I do
prefer how doctors that are atheist don't deny medical treatments for patients
because of their religious beliefs.

