
Snowden and the NSA reflect a millennial climate change - rfreytag
http://www.cringely.com/2013/06/18/snowden-and-the-nsa-reflect-a-millennial-climate-change/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=snowden-and-the-nsa-reflect-a-millennial-climate-change
======
codeulike
This bit:

 _Snowden himself is I think the most interesting part of this because he’s a
so-called Millennial. His ethics and allegiances are not those of his father
or grandfather and certainly not those of the politicians and intelligence
leaders he’d love to bring down. So the old rules, old threats, and old reward
structures don’t work with this guy, making him even more dangerous.

I think that’s good. In fact I think it’s the system re-regulating itself. We
created Edward Snowden by disappointing him so. Our leaders, representing the
old culture even as they presented themselves as representing the new, gave
him no morally acceptable way to be successful in his own culture. We made him
do what he is doing now. And if you think that’s bullshit I suggest you think
again because this guy has been very clear about his motivation._

There's something in this. The old 'for king and country' type stuff isn't as
strong as it used to be. The average person views "people in power" very
differently to 50 years ago. We all have mixed feelings about power now.

~~~
gcb0
We've seen this cycle all the time.

New generation comes, brings down two generations worth of powerful
influences.

It's no coincidence that all the revolts in the world are happening somewhat
in the same decade. Arab spring, Turkey, now Brazil... and I don't even follow
the news.

~~~
walshemj
From what we have seen so far in the Arab spring the "progressive elements"
are getting squeezed out by the reactionarys - Just like the Iranian
Revolution.

This is what the secular protestors are worried about in Turkey.

Brazil is slightly different always wondered if the hardline clearance of the
favellas for the world cup/Olympics would come back to bite them on the ass.

~~~
cinquemb
> _From what we have seen so far in the Arab spring the "progressive elements"
> are getting squeezed out by the reactionarys_

And the profiteers in some cases[0]… but alas, this is nothing new…

[0]: [http://www.cfr.org/qatar/tiny-qatars-big-plans-may-change-
mi...](http://www.cfr.org/qatar/tiny-qatars-big-plans-may-change-
mideast/p26143)

------
CWuestefeld
_So the recent news is bad for the cloud but it’s also bad for the
intelligence agencies, themselves, because they’ve been busted. Who benefits
from that? The regular military_

Cringely, too, is getting trapped in a false choice fallacy.

Of course, there's the debate that's already been going on about how much
beneficial information really came out of these programs.

But on top of that, he's assuming that if we want intelligence, then this is
_the_ way to accomplish it. But that's not even close to true. We _could_
still use the established, Constitutionally-approved method of warrants;
there's no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

And that's not all. He's stuck in the modern era's shift away from HUMINT
(human intelligence), focusing almost exclusively on SIGINT (signals
intelligence). Sure, in the rest of the world it's clear that big data can
yield lots of information. But again, babies and bathwater. It's not the only
choice we've got, and despite the sexy allure of technology, history shows
much greater returns from HUMINT.

And HUMINT _can 't_ encroach civil liberties anything like the NSA programs,
because their scale is inherently limited.

~~~
munin
> history shows much greater returns from HUMINT.

except that signals intelligence won the battle of the north atlantic and the
battle of the pacific and secured an allied victory over the axis powers in
the second world war.

~~~
CWuestefeld
But how much of _that_ was due to HUMINT?

 _The German plugboard-equipped Enigma became the Third Reich 's principal
crypto-system. It was reconstructed by the Polish General Staff's Cipher
Bureau in December 1932—with the aid of French-supplied intelligence material
that had been obtained from a German spy._ [1]

I guess we could go on and on over which was thus more important. But it must
be acknowledged that, _at least_ , HUMINT is extremely important, and can't be
discounted.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptanalysis_of_the_Enigma](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptanalysis_of_the_Enigma)

------
squozzer
"King and Country" meant something once, when patriotism was a two-way street.

~~~
mhurron
When was patriotism ever a give and take? Patriotic duty has always been at
the expense of the individual.

"Ours is not to reason why. Ours is but to do and die."

~~~
squozzer
Maybe, but I would say that civilization cannot stand on its' own, it will
need defenders. And civilization has been good to most of us most of the time.

But I agree with the gist of your statement -- people in positions of power
(or in your example, a position of artistic authority) constantly try to alter
the terms of civilization to their benefit.

