
Cherry’s new switches may help bring mechanical keyboards to more laptops - Fnoord
https://techcrunch.com/2018/01/12/cherrys-new-low-profile-switches-may-help-bring-mechanical-keyboards-to-more-laptops/
======
JoshTriplett
Personally, I really _like_ short-throw keys on a keyboard, with less key
travel. Whenever I find myself using a thicker, mechanical keyboard, it feels
wrong somehow, and I don't enjoy typing on it.

At my desk, I use a USB version of the same laptop keyboard and mouse that's
on my laptop:
[https://download.lenovo.com/km/media/images/PD026745/tp_comp...](https://download.lenovo.com/km/media/images/PD026745/tp_compactusb_kb_0b47190.jpg)

~~~
ginko
Do you press the keys all the way down on those thicker mechanical keyboards?
Because it doesn't actually take that much key travel for a key press to
register.

~~~
mcbits
I've used a mechanical keyboard for a couple years. Yes, there is a 1-2 mm
buffer zone after the keypress registers. No, it's not practical to manually
stop and reverse within that zone consistently while typing at a fast speed. I
would even say it's unsafe due to the extra tension in the wrists needed for
that kind of precision. But it is possible to just type a little softer and
reduce the noise of the "clack" as well as wrist tension.

~~~
dkersten
I find a type a lot lot softer now than I used to (which, since I don’t bottom
out the keys, means less strain because I only barely touch keys). I use a
Kinesis Advantage 2 (with a 3 button foot pedal and Cherry MX Brown keys) and
its absolutely the most comfort I’ve ever had while typing. I type faster and
more accurately than I did before and I feel a lot less hand/arm strain even
after long periods of intense typing. I honestly wish I’d bought one ten years
sooner (ok, an Advantage, since the Advantage 2 didn’t exist then), when I
first considered it, but didn’t because the price seemed too high. I type that
much, though, that the cost is nothing over its lifetime, especially if it
helps me reduce or avoid RSI.

I’m always baffled when I see pepole absolutely hammer their keyboards. My
hands hurt just thinking about it. Or just using bad keyboards at all. Our
careers and hobbies rely on our hands so much that its a no brainer to
optimise for their wellbeing, even if the keyboard is a tad expensive.

But I’m obviously a fanboy now, and I’m sure not everybody loves them as much
as I do...

~~~
druidgreeneyes
Can't speak for anybody else, but I know -I- hammer at my laptop keyboard
because the keyboard is terrible and if I ease off it will sporadically fail
to detect keypresses. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that this is the case
for a lot of laptop or other less-key-travel keyboards, especially outside
known brands. I use an external kb/mouse/monitor wherever it's feasible, but
in that instance I generally just have to grab whatever is lying around the
workplace, which means I generally get older mechanical keyboards with longer
key travel distance (which, in turn, I don't have to hit as hard, though I'll
admit that I still make a pretty satisfying whack on the spacebar). I -could-
order my own kb/m and carry them around with me (and maybe I should), but then
it's not really much of a laptop is it? :p

~~~
dkersten
Thanks for the insight!

I typically have my own Jones is at home and a keyboard in the office (maybe
I’ll buy my own second kinesis some day as not all employers provide me with
one) and use the laptop keyboard when I’m not at my desk (at home or in the
office).

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therealmarv
Meanwhile we have the keyboard of the new Macbooks. Get as loud as mechanical
keyboards with no tactile fisher price feeling. And we should not even start
of talking about durability.

~~~
6t6t6t6
I may be weird, but I have a 2017MBP and I love the keyboard.

~~~
therealmarv
Well I hate them when coworkers are using them in a shared environment.

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megaman22
The great thing about mechanical keyboards, for me, is that almost all of them
are full-size, and are laid out according to the traditional old IBM PS/2
design. For me, that form factor is important, because I have big hands with
sausage fingers. The mechanical switches, in and of themselves, are less
important than sturdy construction and consistent layout. I've never had two
laptops with the same keyboard layout, and seen some downright-boneheaded ux
decisions - my current work machine puts the power button inline in the top
right, where you expect a delete button to be.

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pasbesoin
I'm using a Thinkpad T430, at the moment. I can live with the chicklets,
although the surface on these is a touch too slippery for me -- my fingers too
easily find the edges of the keys, upon occasion.

However, the frustrating part is that some keys occasionally fail to register.
Left shift being one of them; some of my ampersands turn into sevens (and, it
just dropped the n in "into") -- particularly frustrating when I mean to
background a command.

The "God we all miss them", "real" keyboard on my W520 does not exhibit this.

This T430 does have the backlit keyboard; I understand it's from the parts
supplier (I forget which, offhand) that tends to have more "wobble" in their
keys. That may be part of it.

People focus SO much on the internals of these machines. For fuck's sake,
start by putting good keyboards and displays in them. I don't care how fast it
runs, if it's a pain to use and its ergonomics slow me down.

I don't mind "cheaper", "thinner", "cooler" (style), whatever laptop designs.
I DO mind the trend towards that being the only thing I can buy.

I don't have a T25, yet, but I may. And I hope there's a T26 or whatever they
call it, and so on.

(And then, I'll dream about an open BIOS and a machine that is really _mine_ ,
in terms of its computational functionality.)

~~~
pimeys
I'm just like you, I prefer a good keyboard, mouse and screen over lightness
and thinness. That's why I went with the T25 instead of waiting for the 8th
gen Intel's last year. Good keyboard, a minimal window manager and I'm the
most efficient. But I think we're in minority.

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walterbell
GoldTouch has a folding mobile ergonomic keyboard in USB and Bluetooth
versions, relatively silent full-size keys with tactile feedback, 2.7 mm key
travel, 45g activation. They have been around for a while and began with
desktop keyboards.

[https://www.amazon.com/Goldtouch-GTP-0044-Mobile-Keyboard-
US...](https://www.amazon.com/Goldtouch-GTP-0044-Mobile-Keyboard-
USB/dp/B00DT73FVM)

[https://deskthority.net/wiki/Goldtouch_Adjustable_Keyboard](https://deskthority.net/wiki/Goldtouch_Adjustable_Keyboard)

~~~
npunt
I have one and these are pretty good, but I wouldn't say the keys have an
amazing feel - its more the form factor and tenting that I like about this
keyboard. The goldtouch keys are a bit wobbly vis-a-vis the new apple desktop
(not MacBook) keyboards with butterfly switches, which are quicker to type on.

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Jetroid
Mechanical Keyboards have always been a curse in disguise for me. Sure, the
feedback is nice but the 'click' sound is very distracting and breaks my flow.

It's even worse when a coworker/housemate/other person has one. I swear that
sound is not impeded by walls.

~~~
Fnoord
My partner has the same, she hates my mechanical keyboards (mainly a Razer
BlackWidow Ulimate Stealth). However she's sensitive to sounds in general (we
suspect its part of a form of autism for which she'll get psychologically
tested this year). It was an important factor of the decision to skip the MBP
2016, forcing me to go with a 2015 version instead.

However, it is possible to make the sounds less severe by touching them
lighter. And on the Razer device these are Cherry MX Black with silencer.
There's Cherry MX Brown if you need a more silent switches. If it was my
choice, I'd use Cherry MX Blue (or, well, Green, as it resembles the old IBM
keyboard the best)...

Personally, the sound of keyboards doesn't bother me (though I wonder the
effect on TEMPEST). I just get annoyed by sounds from mobile phones in
general. Especially if it keeps occurring all the time while the user is using
the phone. Pointless IMO. "Look at me, I'm popular." I find it rude when
people cause noise in public (such as a restroom, or a train/bus), be it
they're on the phone or having a phone which generates noise. The exception I
got to that is children. I have compassion for children, tho its the parents
who should solve the problem that isn't always practical.

~~~
apopt0sis
Made an account just to comment on this.

I support you guys’ decision to getting screened for the spectrum. In the
meanwhile, do check out the Wikipedia page for Misophonia.

I have a form of it, where I can’t eat around people because the “chewing
sound” they make is absolutely rage inducing. Similarly, one of my friends has
a form of it where the sound of someone cracking their knuckles enrages her
just as similarly, and she will start bawling, not crying, bawling for a good
while. Neighter of us have a reason (or memory thereof) to associate these
sounds as triggers.

So, while I’m not a medical anything, I do suggest checking out that page, at
least to quench your curiosity. For some added context, I do suffer from other
auditory ailments, as well as ADHD. A link between misophonia and different
mental sicknesses is suspected, however there is almost no research on this
subject, leave alone one that’s looking for links. YMMV.

EDIT: typos; on mobile

~~~
Fnoord
Cheers, TYVM for mentioning this. I bought this DVD [1] and will bring this
subject up in my local autism group (I got a diagnosis as well). There are
many more reasons for us to get her checked for the spectrum (me getting
diagnosis was an eye opener for sure). I suspect this proposed disability (it
isn't part of DSM or even ICD) might be linked to autism. At the very least,
there's more sound related issues such as light sleep, exceptional hearing,
and sensitivity to emotion in sound. Part of autism is under- and
oversensitivity.

[1]
[http://www.quietpleasefilm.com/about-2/](http://www.quietpleasefilm.com/about-2/)

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hs86
This seems to be only a smaller red switch (linear, no tactile feedback) with
a translucent casing for those 'gaming' laptops.

I don't think that this will bring a (clicky,) tactile MX switch to thin and
light ultrabooks which are (imho) more suitable for coding.

~~~
bergie
I've been looking for low profile switches to built a mobile version of my
Atreus keyboard. Nice to see Cherry entering the game. Kailh has more options,
including tactile [https://www.novelkeys.xyz/product/kailh-low-profile-
switches...](https://www.novelkeys.xyz/product/kailh-low-profile-switches/)

~~~
brokenmachine
The problem with those Kailh is getting keycaps. At least the cherry one will
be compatible with MX keycaps, although I don't know where you'd get low-
profile ones from. Hopefully they're available as spare parts soon.

As an ergodox user, I'd also be really interested in a mobile low-profile
Atreus, but I need more keys, at least like an Atreus64.

~~~
isr
There's an atreus62 variant available (I have one, love it). You can order the
components (or prebuilt models) from profetkeyboards.com

Personally, I shift the letter keys out to the sides by 1, so the pinky's only
have 1 column to deal with, and there 2 extra rows in the middle. This also
has the effect of rotating the wrists outwards even more - comfy!

As it turns out, I don't even need the full 62 keys (and have even pulled 8
keycaps off!). Depending on your preferred layout, you might also get away
with <60 keys.

But a low-profile variant would be nice :)

~~~
brokenmachine
Oops, I actually meant atreus62.

But maybe an atreus64 would be better (if it existed) because I would like
some more thumb keys like my ergodox.

------
gaius
I felt the first twinges of carpal tunnel back in the day but switching to a
Cherry keyboard cleared it right up. Now I wouldn’t use any other.

~~~
mmjaa
The best thing to do to deal with carpal tunnel is to change your keyboard out
every few months. It doesn't matter if its Cherry or whatever - simply don't
use the same keyboard for longer than 3 - 4 months.

(This is just my personal experience. 30 years ago I was diagnosed with carpal
tunnel, and I change my keyboard every 6 months. Never had it since!)

~~~
jpeloquin
This makes sense. Changing the keyboard presumably leads to a different set of
repetitive motions and different injury mechanisms, giving your
musculoskeletal system the opportunity to heal existing damage.

Was the approach of changing your keyboard periodically recommended by a
medical professional? Or by something you read?

~~~
mmjaa
Was recommended to me by a medical professional in 1986. Worked wonders!

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ksec
On the Topic of Keyboard, Dell has a new Keyboard on its new XPS 15 called
Maglev, using magnet instead of switches, which said to allow the thinness of
MBP keyboard while still giving some key depth.

I cant wait to see how that turns out.

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tomxor
Is the travel comparable the rubber-dome spring based ones in most laptops?
(excluding apple's latest obscenity of course).

I like the short travel and low force of most laptop keyboards but I really
hate the flimsy spongeyness of them... they aren't proper switches like
cherries so they have a tendency to be wobbly, inconsistent and spongey. Over
time this gets worse.

I'd really like it if I could keep the low travel and low force but have it
smooth consistent and non-spongey.

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tristanj
Thin laptops won't be getting this tech. These switches are still thicker than
an entire macbook pro.

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seanmcdirmid
Couldn't haptics (and taptics) be used to augment a keyboard with better
feedback and a feeling of travel and bounce back without an actual physical
switch?

~~~
QAPereo
Good mechanical switches have a kind of mechanical haptic feedback that lets
you know with a click, that your keystroke has registered, without bottoming
out the key.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Right. I wonder if travel can be eliminated even further with vibration-based,
rather than actual mechanical, feedback.

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neves
I have 4 broken and beloved Model M keyboards that I can't throw away. Which
Cherry switches would make feel like I were using one of them?

~~~
kraptor
You need Cherry greens modded with 95g springs... or just buy an Unicomp :)

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ChuckMcM
Still waiting on the wireless mechanical keyboards :-).

~~~
tjoff
There are quite a few on the market.

~~~
ChuckMcM
I see that I am a bit behind in that two (Velocifire, and RK) seem to have
actually mechanical wireless keyboards (I found that when looking for them
that often a chiclet style would be advertised as 'mechanical' while still
just being a squish dome type) I've ordered one of each from Amazon to see if
they can replace my current daily driver which is the Corsair.

