
Argentina says signals detected, likely from missing submarine - daegloe
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-argentina-submarine/argentina-says-signals-detected-likely-from-missing-submarine-idUSKBN1DI0M8
======
ChuckMcM
I took a brief excursion on a private submarine once and the list of things
that could go wrong that they asked to you explicitly release them from
liability for was frankly rather frightening. It really put a damper on my
desire for a 'casual' submarine from US Subs.

Given the description that the seas are quite rough I hope it is a simple
matter of them losing a communications mast or something along those lines.

~~~
ocschwar
Submarines are just about the worst when it comes to the duration from the
second someone goofs up and the second where everyone's doomed.

And also the worst when it comes to the duration from the instant everyone's
doomed to the instant everyone's dead.

TSorry, but that's a "no" from me, dawg.

~~~
majos
There's surely an obvious answer to this, but assuming the goof doesn't
cripple the submarine's ability to move, and ignoring issues of secrecy, is
there a reason it can't just head for the surface and be there in a few hours?
There's nothing like the bends here for the passengers, right?

~~~
JshWright
Subs control their depth by flooding internal tanks with water (more water =
sub goes deeper). They can surface very quickly (seconds to a few minutes,
depending on the depth) by blowing all the water out of those tanks with
compressed air.

That's assuming something hasn't gone wrong that has caused the sub to take on
water somewhere other than those ballast tanks. If a portion of the sub fills
with water, the empty ballast tanks may not provide enough buoyant force to
lift the sub.

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe a neutrally buoyant, or even (a
little?) negatively buoyant sub can adjust depth, perhaps even surface?, under
its own power.

~~~
evgen
It can, but there are actually very few of those types of subs around and they
tend to be limited to research and recreation. Keeping several hundred tons
neurally buoyant is kinda hard and if the sub has positive buoyancy then it
requires propulsion to stay down or else an elevator ride to the surface is a
one-way trip. Needing constant propulsion is bad for a military sub, and being
stranded on the surface after any sort of emergency surface action (even a
test) would also be a bad thing.

------
jlgaddis
Ars Technica ran an article [0] yesterday that had more info and details on
the sub, as well as some info about NASA's involvement (P-3 aircraft
participating in the search).

[0]: [https://arstechnica.com/information-
technology/2017/11/nasa-...](https://arstechnica.com/information-
technology/2017/11/nasa-icebridge-flying-lab-aids-in-search-for-missing-
argentine-navy-sub/?comments=1)

------
jonah
Tyler Rogoway's article mentions the US Navy is on standby with their
Submarine Rescue Diving Recompression System[1] in case their help is
requested. But hopefully it's on the surface but disabled and will be located
soon.

[0] [http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/16195/frantic-search-
un...](http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/16195/frantic-search-underway-for-
missing-argentine-submarine)

[1]
[http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=4100&ct=4&...](http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=4100&ct=4&tid=400)

------
ajross
Sort of a weird article, talking about the disappearance and the hunt and the
worry without actually talking about what the boat is or what its crew does:
this is a diesel-electric attack submarine, designed deliberately to evade
detection and sink other ships with torpedoes.

They routinely operate without contact for days at a time, and have limited
means of signaling a mayday situation. Pretty much everyone recognizes that
when these things run into trouble, they may very well simply disappear.

So, it's a tragedy. But, not really an unforseen one.

~~~
marianov
ARA (Armada Argentina/Argentina Navy) San Juan. 1983 Diesel Electric, recently
serviced.
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_San_Juan](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_San_Juan)

~~~
italophil
I read about that service somewhere, they basically cut the boat in half to
replace the engines and then welded it back together.

~~~
BuildTheRobots
>According to Minister of Defense Agustin Rossi, the MLU cost some 100 million
Argentine Pesos (12.4 million dollars) and comprised more than 500,000 work
hours in which the boat was cut in half and had its four MTU engines and
batteries replaced. The MLU was under way at CINAR since August 2007. He
blamed the delay on the lack of funds and qualified labor.

> Rossi called the re-delivery an important milestone for Argentina, as the
> state had lost its ability to repair submarines following the previous
> Domecq Garcia shipyards being disbanded.[1]

Distinct lack of details; though the article says crew of 37 when every
current article about it missing states 44.

edit: The lack of maintenance facilities is worrying, though it sounds like
the overhaul has created a grannies broom; there's not much of the original
sub left.

[1] [http://en.mercopress.com/2014/06/19/argentine-navy-
receives-...](http://en.mercopress.com/2014/06/19/argentine-navy-receives-
refurbished-tr1700-class-submarine-ara-san-juan)

Linked from wikipedia:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_San_Juan#cite_note-5](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_San_Juan#cite_note-5)

~~~
pavel_lishin
> _it sounds like the overhaul has created a grannies broom; there 's not much
> of the original sub left._

I've heard of Theseus's Ship, and grandfather's axe - granny's broom is a new
one to me.

~~~
mkempe
I noticed, and enjoyed, that variation too.

A few of my software products have gone through multiple frameworks and
rewrites, but from the user's point of view they appear to have remained one
evolving entity. My phone/personal-digital-assistant also has kept its name
for 21 years, but has gone through a series of reincarnations.

------
richmarr
> _" Argentine authorities are scrambling to find a three-decade-old
> submarine..."_

30 years doesn't seem that old for a submarine. A good proportion of the UK
fleet were launched in the 80s.

What age does the US start decommissioning subs?

~~~
jabretti
The Ohio-class submarines of the US Navy date back to 1981, and their
replacement isn't due until 2029 (and probably won't happen until later than
that).

The Taiwanese are still operating a submarine which was launched in 1944.

So yeah, a 30-year-old submarine is merely middle-aged. On the other hand,
Argentinian maintenance standards are not exactly the envy of the world (cf
[http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/01/23/argentine-
destroyer-...](http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/01/23/argentine-destroyer-
that-led-war-against-britain-sinks-symbol-decay-for-once.html) )

~~~
Spooky23
Argentina is an amazing place who level of screwed-upness is tragic.

~~~
conanbatt
Argentina has 2 distinct effects. The first is that after the dictatorship in
the 70's, the military has been systematically defunded. Any politician that
needs a buck, and they all do, will always put the military last. Its a front-
pager for the government to buy a new military plane: it costs votes and
money.

And second, we have a level of systematic corruption that has eroded many
institutions, including the military. Noticeable so, the state of military
aircraft is in shambles and many army people died because the funds for
maintenance where stolen. A famous documentary by a former pilot details these
issues.

------
Theodores
These submarines are weapons of war, for defence and offence. It is
interesting how rival countries are willing to help out in these situations.

If this submarine had got lost when the Falklands war was a hot war, would the
British lend them a helicopter or two to help them look? Particularly if it
was a day or two after the Argentine Air Force had taken out a ship or two of
the Task Force.

'Here you go guys, if you need help with salvage...' would not have happened
then or in the post-war aftermath. Instead the Royal Navy would have denied
the Argentine armed forces access to the area and the depth charges would have
been deployed, the submarine gone for good like the General Belgrano. The
victory would be selling newspapers. Only a few left wing anti-war moaners
would be grumbling.

But today obviously there is 'peace' and as much help as much as possible is
coming from the British establishment with no hesitation.

If the North Koreans lost a submarine would other countries such as the UK/USA
offer them help to find it, particularly if it could one day point missiles at
the USA? Maybe there should be an on-going 'lost-submarine test' where world
tensions and hostilities are gauged by how many countries participate in
military search and rescue operations.

~~~
jonstewart
As Lord Palmerston said, "Nations have no permanent friends or allies, they
only have permanent interests."

Argentina's politics are certainly... interesting... but there's no question
that Argentina is a strategically important country for major powers to court.
Major military powers have little to fear from the San Juan in a hypothetical
conflict, but much to gain from friendly relations with Argentina.

~~~
SomeStupidPoint
Also, what a great chance to have a sanctioned hunt of an Argentinian
sub/vessel.

Nothing breeds experience at hunting subs like going sub hunting -- and now
several navies get to, in an area they know one exists, without it offending
anyone.

------
dghughes
>But a storm pitching powerful winds and waves more than 6 meters (20 feet)

Isn't that normal? The Atlantic off south east Canada 5m (15 feet) waves are a
normal everyday thing. The coast off Argentina seems like it would be similar
in climate.

------
Someone
_”It was not immediately clear what type of calls the vessel may have tried to
make but submarines that are stricken underwater can float a location beacon
known as an EPIRB to the surface that can then emit emergency signals via
satellite.”_

Makes me only _very_ slightly more optimistic w.r.t. the chances of finding
the crew alive. Being military, their normal objectives would include “don’t
let anybody see you”, so they wouldn’t use such a device unless they were in
truly dire trouble.

------
nodesocket
> U.S. company specialized in satellite communications

Nice. Hoping Argentina and US can bring these sailors back safely.

------
jordansmithnz
Seems like there’s new information since this article: “Argentina says signals
detected, likely from missing submarine” -
[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-argentina-
submarine/argen...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-argentina-
submarine/argentina-says-signals-detected-likely-from-missing-submarine-
idUSKBN1DI0M8)

~~~
dang
Thanks! Url changed from
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/11/18...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/11/18/a-submarine-
has-vanished-launching-a-frantic-search-for-44-people-on-board/).

------
robtaylor
Several 'failed satellite calls' have been detected (how?) attributed to
missing military sub.

[https://twitter.com/BreakingDotUK/status/932041323816906753](https://twitter.com/BreakingDotUK/status/932041323816906753)
quoting Reuters.

Fingers crossed!

~~~
lb1lf
As for the failed satellite calls, my guess would be that communication was
initiated, but that all of the handshakes required to actually place a call
were not completed successfully.

Typical cause: you are equipped with a gain antenna which requires
stabilisation to point at the relevant patch of sky - and the stabilisation
isn't working. You can aim for the general area and sometimes, you get close
enough to start the connection process. (Or any other number of reasons - the
above I have experienced myself. Luckily, we had the option to switch to a
lower-gain antenna and connect anyway (at a higher rate.)

------
anigbrowl
What a terrible headline, and the article isn't any better. "Argentine
military submarine with crew of 44 lost at sea" is perfectly sufficient.
Writing standards have really taken a dive since news went digital, which is
the opposite of the world I'd hoped for when I was evangelizing the internet
back in the 90s :-(

I'm not optimistic for the poor sailors. If a modern submarine is genuinely
missing it's usually because it was on some sort of covert mission when it got
into difficulties.

~~~
whoopdedo
Even worse is the computer-generated "related" links that are inserted inline
with the article. We're talking about peoples' lives and you're trying to bait
me with a headline about cocaine and hookers? This is why human editors are
necessary for journalism.

~~~
eighthnate
>This is why human editors are necessary for journalism.

What difference would a human editor make? There is an exorbitant amount of
news people on social media trying to convince everyone that they are needed.

~~~
whoopdedo
I would assume an editor would have chosen more tasteful articles to link to.
Or at least something that bears more of a similarity to this story than just
having the word "submarine" in the headline.

------
artur_makly
im sure they will surface when Argentina plays its first match in the upcoming
World Cup

------
joering2
They all timing ticking bomb, since most (all by now) are nuclear reactor
propelled.

As we all know, if something can break, it will break eventually. Its only a
matter of time when one of these creatures sink to the bottom and pressure
will take care of the rest, causing world panic due to nuclear material
getting released into the ocean.

~~~
jackpirate
Nine nuclear submarines have already sank:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sunken_nuclear_submari...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sunken_nuclear_submarines)

There hasn't been any world panic. There's lots of reasons to dislike the war-
machine. (I myself am a former nuclear naval officer turned conscientious
objector/pacifist.) But FUD does not help the case against militarism.

~~~
sillysaurus3
_I myself am a former nuclear naval officer turned conscientious objector
/pacifist._

This is tangential, but can I ask about some of your experiences or reasons
for that? It sounds interesting.

Only curious. Feel free to shoot me an email if you'd like.

~~~
jackpirate
On my blog, I have a page about the whole process here:
[https://izbicki.me/blog/my-co-discharge.html](https://izbicki.me/blog/my-co-
discharge.html)

If you want something more condensed, here's a news article:
[http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/23/nyregion/23objector.html?p...](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/23/nyregion/23objector.html?pagewanted=all)

~~~
sillysaurus3
Your AK-47 to serving spoon project is interesting too:
[https://izbicki.me/blog/turning-an-ak-47-into-a-serving-
ladl...](https://izbicki.me/blog/turning-an-ak-47-into-a-serving-ladle.html)

~~~
jackpirate
Thanks :)

I have another rifle and 4 swords that I want to do something similar with as
well. I don't think I could do a very good job with them though. (TBH, I'm a
bit disappointed with how the ak-47/ladle turned out.) So I've been looking to
find a good artist to donate them to.

