

Ask HN: Does working for big tech companies pay off more compared to startups? - michaelglarson

Based on https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=9052727 (What up with these startup salaries?) I tried to do a rough calculation of whether it makes more economic sense to work for a large tech. company (apple, google, etc...) or startups. Modulo other factors, it seems that working for a large tech. company pays more on average. Here are the calculations: https:&#x2F;&#x2F;gist.github.com&#x2F;MichaelGLarson&#x2F;d916a6984271ea136e3f<p>Am I missing something here?
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devnulled
I have been a Software Engineer in the field for around 18 years and have
worked at numerous companies.. I've been employee #1, and have also worked at
a company with around 100K employees across the globe.

I haven't yet been a founder, but I've been at 3 startups which have been
acquired. At this stage in my career, if compensation is your primary concern,
my opinion and experience is that your best bet is a bigger company who offers
stock as part of your compensation somehow. I've definitely made more at a
bigger companies than I have as an employee of successful startups with
liquidation events.

However, when I was younger, startups were a great place to get interesting
experience and network with some great people. I'd recommend working at them
if you are in your twenties, or founding one if you have the right personality
and backup plans for that. I'm in my mid 30's and would be relatively hesitant
to be an employee of startup in its early days now.

You also need to consider if it's a true startup, or just a smaller mom and
pop lifestyle type company which is not growing like crazy. The latter is
probably better for someone like me, but a quality startup in your 20's is
something you'll look back on fondly no matter how much it may have sucked at
the time. It's a roller coaster ride but you'll get great experience and have
a great network of people to know when you get older.

Keep in mind I'm speaking as an employee-- a founder of a startup is a totally
different thing.

~~~
radmuzom
In my experience, bad advice (though I agree it may work for some).

I made the mistake of joining startups early in my career. I still suffer
because of those decisions. It is much better to work for a big brand when you
are young. Yes, in startups you get to wear a lot of hats but unless you are
really lucky, you never learn anything in depth. Big companies have enough
good people to learn from if you are motivated enough (as I was). And worst of
all, unless you are one of the founders, and the startup is reasonably
successful - then they will bring a "VP of Engineering" from a big company
after two years irrespective of how much you have helped them build their
systems and probably deserve that role.

~~~
Bahamut
Truth is, YMMV. I have only worked at startups and smaller companies (& a mid-
sized non-profit for my first job), and I mentor my junior developers quite
frequently on improving code quality & code design. They also get the space to
work on features & sink or swim based on their decisions so the lessons hit
harder - the responsibilities are great, and they aren't just siloed into
maintaining existing code. They also get to see the difference between
excellent code & code that they have written.

It is hard to speak for all startups since they're a dime in a dozen.

~~~
radmuzom
My hypothesis is that working in small companies (or startups) like Fog Creek
where the goal of the founder is to be sort of "be happy and make some money
at the same time" is going to be a far better experience than the typical
company whose goal is "Let's acquire users so that there is potential to
display ads which means that I get funding or get acquired". Of course I have
no data to back that up.

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recuter
I'm currently a devops consultant embedded in a big enterprisy company. The
scrums, endless pointless meetings, pointy haired bosses and general
incompetence is soul crushing.

After almost a year of doing this I can't wait for it to be over and just pack
a bag and go a-travelin'. I honestly don't believe this can even be classified
as work really, as the output from these places is so low or even negative.

These places are weird little cults or oppressive political regimes that you
are an insider at. You _could_ enjoy life as part of the politburo, it is
objectively the rational way to go.

Startups to me have always been the 101st kilometre:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/101st_kilometre](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/101st_kilometre)

 _" And then one day you find ten years have got behind you. No one told you
when to run, you missed the starting gun."_

~~~
captn3m0
I read the wiki entry and still don't get the link. Could someone explain,
please?

~~~
DubiousPusher
I believe the poster means that while the world of start-ups is full of
charlatans, it's also where you have to go find the most interesting people
and ideas, since anyone inside the 100 meter radius (inside the established
software industry) who has an interesting idea is shunned or banished to the
world of start-ups.

(Not espousing this view myself, just trying to clarify the analogy.)

------
hacknat
In terms of money you can't even make an argument. Working for a big company
will usually be better for you fiscally speaking. Even the _average_ exit or
IPO won't usually make up for the investment opportunity cost. There will
always be a lucky few who have life-changing exits, but this is the minority.

HOWEVER, money is not the main reason that most people in startups are there.
Try surviving your 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th year in a big company, while still
caring about what you do. Big companies will always struggle with internal
politics, because they are the brand-name place to work, so they are going to
attract political types who want to struggle for a piece of the pie.

If you work for a startup you will likely have a level of freedom,
responsibility, and chances to do interesting things that only a select few
people (who are both talented, lucky, and adept at politics) at larger
companies get to do.

Big companies are a great place to start a career, because they are super
invested in making the best engineers and retaining them. Especially at
Google, so many resources are given to junior developers and the code that you
get to work on will be world-class. However, after a few years of working at a
big company you will probably be overqualified for whatever you are doing and
it will be very easy to get bored unless you are very clever at maneuvering
into the right positions at the right time.

Go get baptized at a big company, make some cash, pay off those student loans,
go join a startup and have fun.

Edit:

OR, you know, you could come join the light-side right away ;)

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jghn
The general sentiment is that startups pay lower. Yes, startups have the
potential for a higher payoff in the long run but I'd like to think that most
intelligent people realize the long odds on that one.

"Am I missing something here?"

Not calculating in the factor that money ain't everything. To some folks, the
ability to be on the ground floor of a small group and driving the future of a
company is a lot more meaningful than being one of a 50,000 member army who
will have little impact on the big picture.

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mpeg
"At big companies, you can expect to get ~$400k-$500k of stock"

Where did you get that figure from? That's a bit surprising to me, there's no
way you could get that kind of stock grant as an engineer in any of the big
companies I've worked at.

~~~
legohead
Wasn't too long ago Facebook was in the news for giving new hires $1m in stock
as signon bonus.

~~~
laxatives
I heard hundreds of long time employees were newly minted millionaires at IPO,
but from what I heard from my peers, new grads don't get anything close to
$1m. In fact, everyone I knew with an offer at Facebook 2012/2013 declined it
to work elsewhere.

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O____________O
I have a number of friends who work at Google. Meanwhile, I've worked at a
variety of small companies, from privately held to "startups".

My advice is, hands down, to get on with the Googles of the world. They have
actual career trajectories, and bosses who actually care about moving them
along it.

Financially speaking, a startup is almost always the worst choice, unless
you're a founder (and even then, the reward is most likely going to be
satisfaction of seeing something through, rather than financial).

I hear stories of bureaucracy at large companies, but I've been amazed at the
amount of it at so-called startups. Unless you're a founder or a principal
engineer role, you're probably going to see the same endless meetings and
religious arguments over minutia.

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ThorArakis
From what I have seen (aside from the monetary argument) is the trade offs are
stability vs freedom. At a larger, more established company you can benefit
from the knowledge that they won't be going under any given year. They will
also most likely have most of their systems dialed in already, ie: build
system, performance reviews, etc. This can be beneficial for a person who is
just starting in their career or somebody who doesn't thrive in an uncertain
environment.

Start ups tend to have a lot more flux in all things. When there is no
established review cycle you are required to advocate for your own merit
increases. Additionally you may be required to hack things together, or take
on many roles in order get your product to succeed. The trade off is that if
you are knowledgable/confident then you won't have existing mistakes from
previous generations and you can help forge the path of the company. In a
smaller company your voice is much louder (yes this is good and bad).

Finally from a finance perspective, you don't end up on top if your company
goes out of business or never IPO's. You're investing in the startup with
hopes of seeing a payout.

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hkarthik
The best startup opportunities will pay off more than the best big company
opportunities. On the flip side, even the worst big tech company job will pay
off more than the worst startup job.

The problem is, it's a lot harder to determine which startup opportunities are
capable of providing a big pay off. By the time a startup is clearly a winner,
everyone is clamoring for a job there and the chance for a big pay off is
usually gone.

With big companies, the best ones with the best pay offs are always hard to
get into, but much easier to identify.

To justify going into startups, you need to love what they stand for and the
work that you'll be doing. If money is a major factor in your decision-making
for a job, it's best to stick to established companies.

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swatow
One thing you may be missing is that big tech companies are hiring people with
scarcer skills. I think the difference goes something like

Startup

\- Willing and able to learn new technologies.

\- Willing to be responsible for a wide range of things, and do grunt work
that is below their skill level.

\- Willing to work longer hours, (since startups want to get a product out
before the competition).

Big tech companies

\- Can accept more rigid rules/bureaucracy.

\- Specialized technical knowledge (since big companies have more need for
this).

\- Work smoothly with company politics.

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daxfohl
Supply vs demand. The supply of engineers wanting to work at small startup
companies is huge, while larger companies will always dwarf the startups in
demand. So yes, you're paying a premium in your salary for the opportunity to
work at a startup.

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skjlls
We are currently running a non-profit, 4-minute survey on exactly your (and
some other) questions. We posted it on HN but it now has moved down to the 4th
page or something like that. Results will be out in a couple of weeks. If you
got 4 minutes, take part (or simply wait until the results come out):
[http://bit.ly/skjlls-EN](http://bit.ly/skjlls-EN)

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hfourm
I mean it just depends, I am making more at my current startup job by about
11% than my big corporate IT job I left.

But my startup is also through a few rounds of funding. I also feel like the
experience gained here will translate into higher salary later should I
transition back into larger organizations.

This is something not too straightforward to compare, and will be different
for different individuals/situations.

~~~
bettynormal
If you just change job you will typically earn more in the next job. You
should factor this in to any change.

I've worked in start ups and large companies. I quickly realized that I could
make more money consulting/contracting for large companies, than working for
either. This is at the sacrifice of not doing the most interesting work. If
money wasn't an issue I'd love to do a start up again.

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photograve
Usually you get more money by applying to a new compagnie, that's why this
question should be more for people changing to a less paid job. Isn't it?

