
Paternity Leave Was Crucial After the Birth of My Child - rafaelc
https://parenting.nytimes.com/work-money/alexis-ohanian-paternity-leave
======
mabbo
I'm quite fond of Canada's system for parental leave[0]. The person giving
birth gets 15 weeks off with 55% of their pay covered by their employment
insurance (EI), and the couple get to share, however they decide to split it,
either 40 weeks (at 55% pay) or 69 weeks (at 33% pay). No cost to the
employer, but they have to ensure there's the same job waiting when the person
gets back. It also covers adoptions.

It probably is hard as an employer but every business is playing on the same
field. It's not like "Well, I won't participate in that because my competition
would have an advantage over me". It's not optional and it's illegal to fire
someone over it. Every business with employees has to accept this will happen
eventually. The only optional choice (which my employer does) is to cover the
other 45% of the pay for a certain number of weeks.

Interestingly, often you hear about people getting in at businesses because
"they had a temp opening because of a mat-leave!". This works a lot like an
internship, where the employer gets to test out a potential employee while not
committing to them since the person on leave will be back on a specific date.
Great way to get experience and networking for young people.

My teammate, for example, left a few weeks ago when his child was born. He'll
be back in January. Sucks for our team to work without him that long, but it's
nice to know that if I decide to have kids that option will be there for me
too.

[0][https://www.canada.ca/en/services/benefits/ei/ei-
maternity-p...](https://www.canada.ca/en/services/benefits/ei/ei-maternity-
parental.html)

~~~
legostormtroopr
> person giving birth

You mean the "mother"?

~~~
Broken_Hippo
Folks give birth without becoming a mother and one can be a mother without
giving birth.

Surrogates exist, for example. Folks give infants up for adoption. In this
case, you can wind up with a mother who didn't birth the child and a person
who gave birth, yet didn't actually become a mother except in a loose sense of
the word.

On the sadder end, stillbirths still happen and society doesn't really
consider this person to be a mother. (I'm personally fine with whatever the
parents choose to be called).

------
untog
There are many positive things about living in the US, but having a child here
absolutely blew my mind. Not only is the act itself incredibly expensive (I'll
spare everyone yet another health insurance rant...) but leave for both mother
and father are woeful. Did you know there isn't even a federal requirement for
maternity leave at all? In some states women get to claim disability for six
weeks and that's it.

Anyway, to get a little more on-topic: lots of us tech company employees are
incredibly blessed when it comes to parental leave. Take. Every. Day. Not only
is it practically a physical requirement (I don't care what you think, if
you're heading into the office with a two week old baby at home you're not
getting enough sleep to do anything productive) it's also an amazing
opportunity to bond with your child. Your coworkers might moan or judge you.
If they do, they're assholes. And who cares, you will move jobs in a few years
anyway. You don't owe your employer anything. Take the leave.

~~~
whiddershins
I feel like you are completely ignoring the FMLA. It mandates 12 weeks unpaid
leave within the first year of childbirth.

~~~
untog
Unpaid is a _huge_ qualifier. A lot of people simply cannot get by taking
three months off with no pay.

~~~
mendelmaleh
Probably a lot of small businesses can't get by with paying people who aren't
working.

~~~
zamfi
That would be why in many other systems a public entity picks up the tab, not
the employer.

~~~
AdrianB1
There is no public entity, it is the taxpayer. Just say it so, "that's why you
pick the tab".

~~~
mlevental
and so what? the tax payer pays for a lot of things that it makes sense for
the tax payer to pay for. at least with health insurance you can bemoan paying
for other people's irresponsible lifestyle but with maternity leave almost
everyone withdraws from the trust in the same way?

~~~
AdrianB1
Presenting facts: reality in my country tells that universal maternity and
paternity leaves are the most abused systems and tax payers are not happy with
this. The low income people have a huge number of children (2 sisters with 33
kids in total were most discussed) just to live on taxpayers money, they never
worked between childbirths. Also there are so many people pay huge taxes and
never qualify to get anything in return (have no kids).

Many people here believe that caring for your kids should be the parent's
responsibility, not anybody else's.

~~~
mlevental
>Presenting facts: reality in my country tells that universal maternity and
paternity leaves are the most abused systems and tax payers are not happy with
this.

googling "canada paternity maternity leave abuse" gets no matching hits. show
me

>The low income people have a huge number of children (2 sisters with 33 kids
in total were most discussed) just to live on taxpayers money, they never
worked between childbirths.

average number of children in canada in 2011 was less than 2.

[https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/11-630-x/11-630-x2014002...](https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/11-630-x/11-630-x2014002-eng.htm)

how many standard deviations away from that mean is ~16 children? so you're
talking about decrying a social policy that overwhelmingly improves outcomes
for women, children, and communities

[https://www.milbank.org/wp-
content/uploads/mq/volume-96/sept...](https://www.milbank.org/wp-
content/uploads/mq/volume-96/september-2018/NANDI_et_al-2018-The_Milbank_Quarterly.pdf)

because some poor person somewhere once had a bunch of kids.

these are distorted facts (or what we in /my/ country, like to call fake
news).

~~~
AdrianB1
Well, here there are 2 categories of people (with exceptions, of course):
people that have 1-2 kids and take a very short leave and people that have
5-15 kids just to live on the checks they get for the kids. You don't have
that yet because we started a long time ago, but it does not mean you will not
repeat the history, again and again. So yes, you are right, it works now in
Canada, we were there 30-40 years ago. Look where we are today before
answering.

------
hbcondo714
>> 16 weeks of paid paternity leave - which was the policy at Reddit

I joined a company a couple months ago but prior to accepting, I asked the CEO
what their paternity policy was because I disclosed we are expecting in
December. He responded that they have a "wonderful" policy so I accepted.
After starting, HR provided me with the employee handbook but there was no
mention of maternity or paternity leave. I asked where it was and HR stated
the company "does not have a maternity or paternity policy" and said my
accrued PTO of 1-week by the time December hits should suffice. I just want to
jump ship now.

Update: I am in California

~~~
untog
I don't know what state you're in, but both NY and CA have paid family leave
laws on the books that entitle you to at least six weeks off. I don't know the
full details, but you should seriously look into it.

And don't write off getting a new job. I started a new job a few months before
my child was born, I was told that if I quit my job within the first year then
I would have to refund the company for the parental leave I was given so soon
in my time with them. I happily accepted that condition.

~~~
hbcondo714
Thank you for the quick reply; good to know others have experienced this. I'm
in CA & my wife will be submitting her PFL claim in the coming weeks so I'll
be doing the research in parallel with her, probably starting here:

[https://www.edd.ca.gov/Disability/PFL_Fathers.htm](https://www.edd.ca.gov/Disability/PFL_Fathers.htm)

~~~
x0x0
Just know the cap is pretty low -- like $1200-ish/week iirc.

Echoing everyone else: a ceo who lies to get someone in the door? That person
is going to fuck you (again) at the first available opportunity.

~~~
scruple
The cap is $1,232/week. I just ended my PFL.

------
pimmen
This still boggles my mind as a Swede, how this is not the norm. Children are
people who need the right circumstances, being with both their parents at an
early age should definitiely be one of them.

On the flip side, as a single person, I can definitely see how alot of
benefits you can claim as a healthy, working career person are tied to having
a family with kids. Our taxes subsidize day care, kid sports clubs and many
other expensive things that are exclusive to kids. And, as long as you
announce it with enough warning, your employer _has_ to grant and handle your
paternal leave so a lot of people use it as a way to claim the best weeks for
vacation leaving us single people puzzling how to get the most out of summer.

Still, raising children is no cake walk and I would rather that parents have
the support they need from the government than the whole situation affecting
the children.

~~~
fastbeef
Fellow Swede, child-haver and boggled-mind-haver. The way I see it it's an
extremely cheap investment from the state's point of view - 350 kSEK or so in
exchange for two years lower stress levels for 3 citizens (child + parents).
It should pay of many times over over the course of the life of those people
in lower mental health issues and abscence from the work force.

~~~
thefz
Then also pay for de-stressing people without kids too. Get sports leave, or a
walk in the park leave and incentives for running shoes.

------
kareemm
Maternity leave isn’t even required by US law, which is insane.

I’m all for paternity leave (I’m a self-employed father of two so had to
create my own). But let’s start with moms, or at least a parental bucket that
either parent can draw from.

~~~
FigBug
What do most American women do after having a kid, quit their job? You can't
put a newbord in daycare can you?

~~~
untog
> You can't put a newbord in daycare can you?

You can. Many daycares take babies from six weeks onwards. I cannot imagine
how it must feel as a parent to do that at six weeks, but plenty do.

~~~
fastbeef
Jesus.

We felt bad when our second kid started daycare at 18 months.

------
HorizonXP
My son is turning one this month. My ability to work remotely for clients on a
flexible schedule was absolutely crucial to our household's overall happiness
and functionality. Truly, I am blessed.

I wish everyone could be able to do the same. Our children and families would
be much better off for it.

I realize that it's impossible for everyone to have it, but we should at least
aim for that. It would do so much for our society at-large.

~~~
dabbledash
Personally, I find working from home with young children almost impossible.
They are a huge distraction.

~~~
refurb
Yup! Even with a full time caretaker, I can’t get much done at home.

~~~
scruple
I go into my office and shut the door. I put my headphones on and put on some
music. I work the morning. I prepare lunch for anyone who wants it, help with
the kids (we recently had twins), and then head back down for the afternoon.
I've set boundaries with the grandparents and my wife has also worked full-
time remote in her life so she already gets it. We'll see if the boundaries
stick with the kids when they're older, though they may be in daycare before
it becomes a problem.

I feel like the GP; truly, I feel blessed.

------
mensetmanusman
Took off 4 months in July for paternity leave.

I think it helps strengthen the organization because any gaps in information
flow become noticeable. The success of complex projects should not depend on a
single individual.

I accept that less time at work may put me behind on the career track; and I
expect that in the future, there will be a wage gap between parents and non-
parents.

------
wickedwiesel
It is really interesting to see how this is different from country to country.
The Wikipedia overview [0] is fascinating!

Of course, as as European, it is mind-boggling how little (none) paid leave
parents get in the US. I also like how Spain is now giving fathers the same
paternal leave as mothers maternal leave (16 weeks).

I do think that parental leave is a really interesting instrument to enable
parents to find a way for a more equal-opportunity take on careers. My wife
and I deliberately split our time off 50/50 (7 months + 7 months, all paid
leave in DE). Besides spending time with my daughter, which was (and continous
to be) a mind-altering experience, this allowed both of our careers to
progress similarly. I highly recommend it.

Also there is this more graphical representation at the BBC [1].

[0] -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_leave#By_country](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_leave#By_country)

[1] - [https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20190615-parental-
leave...](https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20190615-parental-leave-how-
rich-countries-compare)

------
nautilus12
In tech you can take paternity leave but there is no gaurantee that they won't
shift your projects off to other people and there won't be a place for you
when you get back. This has happened to me twice for both my kids, even though
I was in great standing before taking leave. One time it led directly to my
firing completely out of my control. Now I'm scared to take leave even if they
offer it. So you can "take" paternity leave in most tech companies, but you
will pay for it with your job indirectly.

------
metachris
Just as a reference point how maternity leave works in many parts of Europe,
using Austria as a reference: a mother can choose between 1, 2 and 3 years of
maternity leave. You'll get the same amount of money over the whole time, and
it's covered by the health insurance, so the company doesn't have any costs.
It's typical that mothers start part-time work afterwards to ease back into
work life.

Fathers can also take paid paternity leave, usually you can split the leave
with the mother however you want, and if you do you get a few months extra.

It's also typical that the father gets 3 weeks paid time off when a baby is
born, to care for the family. I feel this was invaluable for me and my family.

I honestly find the US system inhumane, forcing mothers back into a job so
soon, and a baby so young is just a tiny, vulnerable, little human. Too early
to put them into daycare in my opinion, but I understand that many parents are
forced to for financial reasons. The US healthcare really needs a big
overhaul.

~~~
AdrianB1
You make it sound like there is no cost for anyone but "health insurance", but
it is costing everyone including yourself: higher taxes, higher prices, lower
salaries. The result is a higher cost of living.

US can use the same system, factoring the cost of maternity leaves and the
paternity leaves into the product prices or into reduced salaries. In the end,
this is where money can be taken to cover.

~~~
metachris
The US is already spending almost twice the amount on healthcare per person
than Austria! [https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-
collection/health-...](https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-
collection/health-spending-u-s-compare-countries/#item-relative-size-wealth-u-
s-spends-disproportionate-amount-health)

* US: $10,224

* Germany: $5,728

* Austria: $5,440

The system in the US is just totally dysfunctional, and I know a complex
issue. But in essence it's using a lot more money than comparable countries
but the benefits don't even compare remotely.

~~~
AdrianB1
Except that being a parent is not a disease; a kid is not a sickness and it
has nothing to do with healthcare. The mother recovering after giving birth is
a health care matter, but that usually takes 6 weeks in most countries.

I fully agree that USA has a major problem with the healthcare system, but
that is a different matter.

------
duxup
I took a leave after the birth of my second child.

The company I worked for was based out of the valley and had recently
announced proudly that they offered paid leave.

I was excited, until HR got back to me to tell me I didn't qualify because I
didn't live in CA. They offered that I could take leave without pay.

Even the companies who seem to embrace such policies, may not in all cases.

~~~
billyhoffman
I don't usually call for something like this, but please please please, if you
are an FTE, name and shame the company here.

If this company wants to ride a wave of publicity and good will by telling the
world they offer paid paternity leave, they should face the public scrutiny
and blowback for such a disgracefully uneven application of said leave policy.

~~~
duxup
They have since been acquired and no longer exist.

------
thefz
I live in a country in which women get a lot of time off after giving birth,
men get some days and every family receives monthly cheques for one or two
years after a baby is born. A new family can rake up a lot of free money
either directly or with discounts, preferential treatment, bonuses, and
support.

I'm against any type of incentive for newborns, because it all comes from the
state, which means public money, which means taxes. I don't want to pay for
other people's two-year vacation leave in which they play happy family while
their employer is missing an employee and getting compensation with public
money.

To me, if you can't or won't work, you must be replaced.

~~~
CalRobert
Is your country in a place with low birthrates and propping up its population
with immigration?

I don't think your view is inconsistent, necessarily, but it comes down to
different views about the role of the state, whether new generations are
important, etc.

Anyway, in some ways we should be doing what we can do reduce birthrates as
much as possible before we destroy ourselves and our life support system, but
on the other hand making it possible for people to engage in about the most
basic function of being an animal without destroying their lives isn't all
bad.

~~~
thefz
Low birthrates yes, just like any other European country, with the added
pressure of a strong catholic presence.

The state has been encouraging births as long as I remember. And while on one
hand I can appreciate that everything is for the well being of newborns and a
better society tomorrow, on the other all I notice are those who exploit this
system to have years and years of paid leave and benefits.

It's just as libertarian as it gets, but if you can't feed them, don't make
them. And I don't want my tax money to go into a safety net for people who
made very poor life decisions.

~~~
fastbeef
Will you be happier with the tax money in your pocket and your local economy
in the pits due to population aging?

~~~
thefz
Human population on earth has been rising since we're here. Just 100 years ago
nobody would ever thought about spending public money to make new humans, and
I think we all turned out fine.

The assumption that if we don't incentivize new births the conomy will
collapse is just an assumption, because in many countries incentives are not
in place, and you don't hear of economies collapsing and the elderly swarming
the streets in search of food because people don't pop just the right amount
of babies to reach the replacement rate.

And again, we cannot continue to grow indefinitely in a system of limited
resources.

~~~
CalRobert
100 years ago life was pretty different. It was assumed mom would be home with
kids, possibly grandparents, etc. Then we decided it was OK for women
(including moms) to work. Then we restricted housing supply pushing most
couples to be dual-earners (see The Two Income Trap). Then we found out
working full time and raising a 6 day old is impossible. So we said "OK you
can go watch your kid a tiny bit and not get fired". And here we are.

As for child benefit (the cash) I see why it grates tbh, but I think it's
meant to help avoid kids being in abject poverty. Whether it works, well, I
dunno.

I agree that we can't grow indefinitely, though.

~~~
thefz
> Then we found out working full time and raising a 6 day old is impossible.
> So we said "OK you can go watch your kid a tiny bit and not get fired". And
> here we are.

Employer-wise, pregnancies are a loss. You have one skilled worker parked for
1,2, or 3 years. You have to hire and train from scratch a replacement. You
risk, basically.

------
Waterluvian
A (present or past colleague of mine) spent a few months living between the
NICU and the office. In equal measures I was livid and heartbroken.

------
cpr
Odd that someone who doesn't need to work ever again would become a spokesman
for this cause...

~~~
dredmorbius
Sometimes it's the gift of being removed from the struggle which allows one to
advance it further.

Ohanian is hardly the only voice for this policy. And many who are in similar
positions to his actively oppose it (if rather more circumspectly).

------
lr4444lr
Alexis conflates two things here: caring for his gravely ill wife, which U.S.
law protects with 12 weeks through FMLA (unpaid, admittedly), and paternity
leave. I don't think that staying out for a long stretch is a wise idea
barring some unusual postpartum circumstance, and I certainly didn't do it
even given the option. Taking a little time off to readjust to the baby's
habits, but getting back to working reduced hours and some remote work if
possible as quickly as possible seems better. Being productive at work is part
of mental health, and I found it restorative to be able to have those periods
without moment to moment concern for the baby.

~~~
untog
Couldn't disagree more. I took eight weeks off when my child was born and I
couldn't be happier that I did. I fail to see why it isn't a "wise idea" and
why returning to work quickly "seems better".

~~~
op00to
Pretending to be busy is very effective as long as you are there to keep the
ruse alive. Once you’re not there and your work is how you’re judged, things
fall apart quickly. That’s why it’s a bad idea for some people to take leave.
:)

------
option
providing paternal leave equal to maternal leave is also important for closing
women-men pay gap and eliminating biases against women.

------
aristophenes
One great side effect of paternal leave is that it removes a big reason to
(consciously or unconsciously) discriminate against women when hiring, as
anyone is almost equally likely to eventually take extended leave.

------
sneeze-slayer
So what is the way forward with getting parental leave enacted in the US?
Calling our senators? My senator hasn't been the to the largest city in my
state in a long time, so that feels largely ineffective.

------
jason_slack
I wish there was some sort of leave for when you take in foster children. I
imagine though this could mean leave every few weeks to months to get a new
child or children acclimated to life away from their parents (and otherwise
the life they know). As a foster parent now I’ve been struggling for months to
meet deadlines, keep up with the house and tend to the ever unknown needs of
kids that have been taken away from their families. L

------
cynusx
The sad part is that the US will only change their policy when from an
demographic point of view they need to generate higher birth rates. For now,
the US population is increasing without any stimulus. In Europe, aging
populations have pushed governments to adopt more pro-parent policies.

------
j_m_b
Not very feasible in our debt-driven, paycheck-to-paycheck country with gig
workers and contractors scraping by. Many of the startups and companies that
frequent hacker news not only rely on this kind of labor, but are actively
creating apps to further "uberize" the workforce.

------
hawktheslayer
I recently had twins and was very grateful my company recently added 6 weeks
of paternity leave. Had this not been the case I would have been forced to use
up my sick time which I will likely neee to use with my kids, and also would
have been fairly worthless when I was at work.

~~~
mysterydip
Congrats and hang in there. Mine are 8 months old, and if one gets sick you
can bet the other will follow soon. People who have had twins assure me that
it does get easier.

------
spraak
At the startup (in the US) I work for I was lucky to have been able to take 12
weeks off at 100% PTO. I can't imagine working somewhere that didn't offer
extended paid paternity leave.

------
collyw
Maybe with overpopulation we should not be encouraging more children.

~~~
billner
That's true globally but many countries have birth rates below replacement
levels. A declining population can cause problems just as an increasing one
can.

------
zomg
when my nephew was born my younger brother told me he was taking "male
maternity leave" \-- love that kid! ;)

------
timwaagh
The reason is regardless of how much 'leave' you have its easy to get fired.
If you fear for your job then it's better not to take too much leave. And
managers have reason to make sure people fear for their jobs.

For another thing I don't think it is ethical. Specifically it is not fair
towards people who do not have families. The loneliness we have to suffer is
already punishment enough. We die earlier because we do not enjoy a happy
life. Yes mothers should have a leave, because of simple necessity. But I
don't think we should force people like me to compensate for fathers lack of
will towards using their vacation days to care for their child.

Edit: of course medical emergencies are a different matter. I don't want to
give the impression I want people to continue working if a dependant requires
their care.

~~~
numakerg
Parental leave benefits you even if you don't have children. When you're old
and infirm, you'll be lucky if society has enough young people to pay into
social services and/or healthcare.

~~~
timwaagh
You convince yourself of that. With male parental leave in place there won't
necessarily be less children. Guys like sex after all. But we can be sure
there will be less doctors available at any given time, because some of them
will be on an unnecessary leave.

Besides, loners tend to die earlier anyways so we don't need so much
Healthcare.

