
Ask HN: Not resting fully because can't sleep long enough - taigeair
Hey founders! I&#x27;m working on a startup as a solo founder and realized that I&#x27;m only sleeping 5-6 hours per day for last few months. Don&#x27;t think it&#x27;s sustainable and healthy. I&#x27;d like to sleep 7-8, but just wake up early. I can&#x27;t get myself to sleep longer or more. It&#x27;s probably because I have too much on my mind and feel I have a lot to do.<p>Have you guys experienced this? How did you address it?
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impendia
Hello --

I have experienced the same symptoms, although not quite as badly (waking up
very early), for the last two years. Take this with a huge grain of salt,
because most of what I tried _didn 't work all that well_, but I'll let you
know what I tried with at least modest success.

And, if you ever figure out how to get your sleep back on track, I'd be
grateful if you'd message me and let me know what worked!

\-- Weighted blankets: I got one, and this seemed to help a little bit.

\-- Cool bedroom: it's recommended to set the temperature to 68 or below.

\-- Consistent sleeping times. Go to bed at the same time every night (if you
can).

\-- Limit activities in your bed. No TV, internet, smartphones. And no lying
in bed wishing you could sleep. If you don't feel sleepy, then get out of bed,
go do something else for a little while and then maybe try again.

\-- You might check out CBT-I -- cognitive-behavioral therapy for insomnia.
(Some of what I suggested above is part of this.) In general the most widely
recommended therapy.

\-- Keep up exercise and your social life, even if you're tempted to cut back
(as I was).

Good luck! (Contact info in profile.)

~~~
mstade
> Limit activities in your bed. No TV, internet, smartphones. And no lying in
> bed wishing you could sleep. If you don't feel sleepy, then get out of bed,
> go do something else for a little while and then maybe try again.

I listened to a (Swedish) podcast some time ago where they interviewed a
professor[0] about sleep and health effects of good and bad sleeping patterns
etc. One question that came up was something along the lines of "what should I
do if I'm lying in bed, just twisting and turning and unable to sleep?" The
response was very much in line with your suggestion: don't remain in bed
trying to force yourself to sleep.

Get up, do something. Read a book, walk around, do the dishes – pretty much
anything really. It's apparently much more effective than trying to force
yourself to sleep. He also said that you should avoid activities that shines a
bright light in your face, like watching a TV or fiddling with your phone or
tablet.

I'm going to try your other tips to see if that helps any with my own sleep
issues – thanks for sharing!

[0]: [https://staff.ki.se/people/johaxe](https://staff.ki.se/people/johaxe)

~~~
heavenlyblue
I think this is bullshit. If you go out for a walk you will wake up even more.

On top of that, if you actually have times when you feel like you get 0 hours
of sleep (i recently started a new job and could barely sleep for a week) if
you don’t remain in bed nevertheless - you will not rest even for a slight
bit; while simply laying in bed will give you at least some rest.

~~~
impendia
The advice I've read is not necessarily to go for a walk outside, but to do
something more low-key: wash some dishes, read a book, or simply sit quietly
for twenty minutes.

Especially if you feel "tired" but not "sleepy" \-- although these can be hard
to distinguish.

This is recommended (by expert researchers, on the basis of experiment) as
part of a cure for chronic long-term insomnia. Like many cures, it can be a
bit arduous at first. I haven't seen it recommended for short-term insomnia,
especially when there is some causal factor like starting a new job.

------
jascii
I know it's hard to make the time, but try to make some time for physical
activities (hiking, swimming, anything cardio) and some meditation/breathing
exercises/yoga to help get your nervous system out of it's flight/fight state.
You need some balance!

~~~
taigeair
thanks for the tip. any specific links you found helpful?

~~~
slap_shot
You don't need links. Just exhaust yourself. You know how.

I was in the same boat - solo founder, working 14 hour days, incredibly
stressed. Exercise and avoiding alcohol, drugs, and shitty food is the key.

There is a certain level of stress that I think can't be dealt with. When you
reach that limit, you have either step back and curtail what you're trying to
do, or just push forward and get through it.

------
swsieber
I had a friend once who couldn't sleep well because of the things on their
mind. Journaling seemed to be the magic bullet for them. They just wrote
everything down that was on their mind. And each day they didn't have quite as
much to write.

~~~
LeoTinnitus
That sounds more like anxiety for some people. A good way to avoid that is
just use things like notes or task checkers on your phone. Then just chip away
at doing these things as you can. You don't need to worry about it in the
morning because your phone is better at remember things you tell it to than
you are.

~~~
swsieber
Ah, it wasn't just things that needed doing, but things they couldn't do
anything about.

But I agree with your point generally.

~~~
LeoTinnitus
Ah, I guess in that instance, I figure why worry? It's out of your control
anyway. Worrying now can't fix it later.

------
josephdviviano
How many coffees per day do you drink? And what is the time of your last
coffee? The half life of caffeine is 8 hours, and can inhibit deep sleep even
if you achieve unconsciousness.

~~~
SwiftyBug
Does this mean that after 8 hours the caffeine is still in my system, acting
half as strongly as it was at the time of ingestion?

~~~
josephdviviano
Well, there's half as much, I don't know enough to say there is a linear
relationship between caffeine concentration and it's psychological effects.

------
mariojv
It's not for everyone, but getting into distance and running really helped my
sleep and energy levels in general. It does take a _lot_ of time to train for
a full marathon IMO, so I'm not sure that would be very manageable as a solo
founder. But, eventually squeezing in 7-8 hours per week to train for a half
marathon could be doable depending on your schedule and other commitments. I
personally found that my increased energy levels made up for the time
commitment in productivity and general well-being, although I have to
temporarily sacrifice other hobbies and some social life in the middle of
rough training cycles. Finding friends to run with helps make the latter more
tolerable.

I struggled a lot with sleep issues in the past - both falling and staying
asleep - but I surprisingly found it really difficult to _not_ fall asleep
early and stay asleep for at least 8 hours after some very long runs during
training. It takes time to build up endurance, but once I was able to run ~5
days a week with a few 6-8 mile runs without excessive effort, I found it easy
to maintain a schedule that keeps me tired enough at night to sleep quite
well. I also found that marathon training improved my time management skills a
lot.

If you don't run at all, couch to 5k is a good place to start. Measure weekly
distance and increase mileage at most 10% of week after that. Reddit's
/r/running is a good place to find more learning resources.

------
JohnFen
I used to have this problem a lot. I've never completely eliminated it, but
I've dramatically reduced it to the point where it's tolerable. I have no idea
if what I did would work for anybody else, but here it is...

First, I learned "self-hypnosis" (really, just serious and intentional
relaxation techniques). That didn't always get me to sleep (although it
usually did), but I would get some rest anyway even if not fully sleeping.

Second, I stopped trying to regulate when I went to bed, but rather when I
woke up. For me, the sweet spot was to always get up at 5:30, whether or not
there was a reason to get up that early. The predictable routine is the
important part here, not the precise time. At first, that would mean I'd be
tired for the day -- but after a while, my body adjusted and I started
naturally wanting to go to bed earlier.

Another thing to keep in mind is that as an entrepreneur, going to bed when
you're tired is overtly in your job description. You need to care for yourself
to care for your business. It can sometimes feel that you're losing
productivity by doing this, but you aren't -- work you're doing when you're
exhausted will be lower quality work, produced more slowly. The best use of
that time is to rest, not work.

------
izhak
Make sure your room is completely dark. I mean totally. No charger lights, not
a blink of light through curtains. Use really thick blankets e.g. to cover the
window. You would be surprised how it affects your sleep.

~~~
paulgb
+1, but I'd add that if you want to test whether this is an issue and don't
want to shell out for blackout curtains (or are in an apartment where you
can't), an eye mask is a good way to go.

After trying half a dozen or so of the $10-20 Amazon eye masks, I sleep with
the Manta Sleep eye mask and am quite happy with it. I see a bunch of other
masks in the $30 range that also look like solid options.

------
cameron_b
not a founder, but I would start with building some peace of mind for yourself
-- Journaling, mindfulness, meditation, prayer or similar is a great place to
start and most high-productivity folks actually draw a connection between this
sort of focus and both increased productivity and lower stress. In your one-
man-band phase, this is super important for you to constantly improve.

A less popular angle is to cut out alcohol. There are huge gains to be made in
focus and rest without it.

a good reference for this is The Productivity Project available in audio ( I
listened to it myself )

[https://alifeofproductivity.com/the-productivity-
project/](https://alifeofproductivity.com/the-productivity-project/)

~~~
taigeair
thanks for the tips. i do meditate but do it in the morning-- i'll try to do
it at night too.

~~~
nabusman
From what I've seen in meditating both morning and night is that the purpose
of morning meditation is to ground and focus, whereas for evening meditation
is to relax and let go. Subtle difference in intent.

------
doitLP
Things that work for me: -Teaspoon of Calm magnesium powder before bed. Not
every day but a few on and off. -no phones or tv in bed -no blue light for at
least 2 hours before bed -dark dark room -same bedtime each night -no alcohol
-no coffee or other caffeine or even dark chocolate after 2pm -daily exercise
for at least 20 min -write out my tasks for the next day so I’ve got things as
much out of my head as possible -If I can’t sleep or wake up, Get up and eat
something small and protein-rich like nuts or cheese -Don’t check phone in
middle of night -wear earplugs. It’s amazing how little noises wake me up. I
use the soft moldable swimmer’s ear plugs

------
nodelessness
I had the same issue. It was because of unresolved stress. I would wake up
with slight palpitations and a lot of thoughts and feelings and concerns in my
mind.

I resolved it by regularly going out of my home, leaving my phone behind and
"doing nothing" at a place where I can sit for a long period of time without
being disturbed. Over time a lot of stress builds up in your body that if not
unwinded will add up and create a self-feeding cycle of stress-nosleep-stress-
even less sleep. Until you are in a burntout situation.

I find that sleeping of its own will not unwind your stress. It is not hte
reset on all stress and full rest. You have to take time to let the mind
wander. This activity took almost 5-6 hours of doing nothing for it to become
complete and for me to come back to normal.

When I say doing nothing. I don't mean not doing something productive. I mean
not fiddling with the phone. Not talking to someone. Not taking your kids or
partner for a walk. Not taking your dog. Nothing. You literally have to do
nothing and resolve to let your entire body and mind rest. Only then will the
mind and body allow itself to rest. Ohterwise you will be stuck in this
unending barrage of activity which your body is starting to burntout from.

------
isaacgreyed
I have been using a sleep mask to block out the morning and other light, and
have a few history podcast I listen to, but those are more to go to sleep
faster than to wake up later.

~~~
ravedave5
Sleep masks are amazing. We got them for my family for a trip to Europe and
now everyone uses them at home.

~~~
cbanek
Totally agree. Sleep masks have really helped with my weird sleep schedule.
Even with your eyes closed, your body will figure out it is light outside
(unless you have some kind of blackout curtain). Plus there's a nice ritual
about it that I think also helps my mind relax.

------
toyg
The good news is that, technically, this _is_ sustainable, for certain values
of “sustainable”. I have been sleeping about 6 hours per night on most nights
for a decade, basically ever since my kids were born.

The bad news is that you’ll never be at peak powers in this way. You’ll be ok
enough to go through the day, but with diminished focus and willpower. The few
days I make sure to sleep more, I clearly get extra energy and focus. (I then
typically pull a 32-hr day because I don’t feel tired, which is also bad).

I compensate with afternoon naps when I can, which I think is the best
“natural” remedy. My grandfather comes from a culture where you’d
traditionally wake up very early, work the fields, then rest in the early
afternoon because it’s hot outside, before doing another shift into the cool
evening. My dad was lucky enough to invent a job for himself that allowed a
similar routine, with 1hr or 2hr naps on most days. Unfortunately, the modern
workday was “invented” in Northern Europe and follows different rhythms, so
less people get that option than ever before.

Other ways I’ve found to increase the sleep-hours count:

— allocate a couple of hours during the night for actual work, then go to bed
earlier. E.g. 21-3 sleep, then 1 or 2h awake, then another 3h sleep to wake up
at 8. (I sleep better in cycles of 3h). This is actually more relaxing to me
than doing 9h straight. Unfortunately it’s risky - if you get in the zone, the
temptation to skip the second sleep-block is very high.

— when you wake up, 30mins physical exercise followed by shower, then back to
bed. Surprisingly effective but not always an option (partner or kids in the
house will not appreciate the noise).

— reducing caffeine. I don’t drink caffeine after 2pm, ever.

— losing weight. My amount of fat tends to be inversely proportional to the
hours I sleep.

------
insickness
Waking up too early is called sleep-maintenance insomnia or sleep-onset
insomnia. I get this a lot. I have no problem getting to sleep but then wake
up too early. I sometimes wake up at 3AM and can't get back to sleep, then end
up feeling like crap the next day.

What helps me:

\-- A very clear clock on my room so I can look at the time in the middle of
the night. If I don't know what time it is, I'll sometimes just get up, only
to realize it's way too early. Once I'm up out of bed, it's harder to get back
to sleep

\-- I found that watching and listening to something really stupid when trying
to get to sleep (old reruns of Family Guy and American Dad) help me to stop
thinking about a million things before sleep. Also, if I wake up and can't get
back to sleep, I watch/listen to it till I fall asleep.

\-- Have a consistent bedtime, as someone else posted.

\-- While light therapy is recommended in the morning to prevent normal
insomnia, there are some studies that show that light therapy in the morning
can cause you to wake up earlier. Try doing some light therapy in the
afternoon or evening.

------
LeoTinnitus
I've only had that problem when I was super busy one summer and I had to
squeeze ever ounce of workable hours out of the day. I drank 1 coffee a day
and only drank again at night if I had to get stuff done. I worked full time,
did school full time, and exercised about 3-4 times a week at about 2-3 hours
each. I'd basically get up at 7, work until 430, some play for about an hour
or two, school work until 11 or 12; occasionally 1 am, then sleep until
repeat.

I'd then "cash in" my deprived sleep state on the weekends where I'd just
catch up on the sleep I missed in one or two days. So I'd go to bed at like
11, and wake up at like 9. I'd do that on Friday and Saturday. I've never had
problems with sleep in my life so I probably am a minority here.

------
rocgf
I have issues falling asleep a lot of the time, and stress has a huge impact
on that.

Stuff that can help (may have been suggested in other comments):

\- exercise will definitely help; there are way too many benefits to list,
apart from helping with sleep

\- coffee - try to limit intake after 2PM or so because caffeine has a long
half-life; the earlier you stop, the better

\- meditation

\- breaks, walks in the evening, anything that disconnects you from your load

\- reading in bead, just before going to sleep

\- limit phone, laptop etc. in bed, before you go to sleep

\- try not to eat/drink too much before bed, especially not an extra large
pizza at 10PM

\- take a hot shower before bed and have your room cooled down

\- avoid various substances that may sedate you, but won't help you actually
sleep better

If all that fails, there are sleep doctors. There are many conditions that can
affect sleep, but it's most likely plain old stress.

------
muzani
Yeah, it's common.

It's a skill. Babies go through this phase where they're too tired to sleep,
and can't sleep because they're tired. You often have to force them to sleep
early.

But as the adult, nobody's there to force you to sleep, and you can hit this
point where you're tired but don't want to sleep.

One trick is just to wake up extra early. It will feel _terrible_ for one day.
You can make do with a midday nap, even 10 minutes works. Your 2 AM bedtime
will move back to 11 PM automatically. Every now and then instead of waking at
5, you can 'oversleep' to 7 AM, giving you a good night's rest, and more
control over your sleeping time.

------
adventured
I take magnesium citrate, 200mg of magnesium in the form of two capsules right
before sleep (I buy a product from SuperiorLabs, although I've tried a couple
of brands). Puts me rapidly to sleep even if my brain is very active with
thought. I had always tossed & turned a bit during sleep, and occasionally
struggled to fall asleep; both things got worse throughout my 30s. If I take
the magnesium, that entirely ceases and I essentially pass out like someone
tranquilized me.

Some people don't tolerate magnesium well in terms of their stomach. I don't
have any problems with it though. A lighter dose might work for those with a
negative stomach response.

------
patchorang
I have this problem too. I haven't solved it, but one thing that has helped is
setting an alarm and not looking at the time while sleeping. If you wake up at
anytime during the night, go back to sleep without looking at a clock. Don't
get out of bed until your alarm goes off.

After a while of waking up too early, it got to the point of waking up at 4am
and thinking "that's close enough" and I would get out of bed. (Attempting) to
go back to sleep regardless of the time seems to have helped that a bit.

------
sebastianconcpt
Are you working out? You need to have vigorous ways to put stress out of your
system. Lifting hard (with good form) is safe and will make you sleep like a
baby. If on top of that you have a stable sexual life, the better. No coffee
after 17pm and maybe consider melatonin 3mg before going to sleep (it can make
you sleep deeper so recover is more fruitful).

PS: BTW, I do 6h sleep most nights and some times I need an additional 20 or
30m nap during the day and is totally sustainable (I train 5d/w).

------
defen
In addition to the things people have mentioned, melatonin might help you feel
more rested. Start with 0.5 mg a half hour before the time you want to go to
bed. In general melatonin is very safe and non-addictive, but as always when
starting a new supplement you should consult with a doctor first. You'll also
want to stop using screens (computer, TV, phone, etc) for at least an hour
before bed time, ideally longer.

------
whiddershins
Are you suffering as a result of this?

Try a nap once or twice during the day, even just 20minute naps, maybe you can
be on this schedule forever.

Try really meditating (or praying or some other ritualized mental and
emotional health behavior) every day before bed, so you can set you worries
aside, and then again every morning. Perhaps you can flush the ongoing anxiety
out of your system so you can sleep with more abandon.

------
silicon2401
If you can afford it, see a sleep therapist and get personalized, professional
help

If not, be open and patient. Try things out and see what works for you. My
sleep is most usually great, which I attribute to the following:

\- Consistent wake-up time (for me more important than bedtime) \- Consistent,
moderate exercise \- Ways to let your thoughts run their course: journal, vent
to friends/family, whatever

------
Gabriel_Martin
Putting aside the mechanics of sleep, it's important for you to realize that
this isn't a valuable trade, between sleep and work. Sustainably growing your
business means keeping balance in your life, meaning pure volume of work won't
actually get you to the goal.

------
pmdulaney
This will sound horribly unscientific, but for me the problem is being
overtired. And the solution? Take naps on the weekends, say 2 PM, when you are
able. For me, it induces a sense of sleepiness that, paradoxically, makes me
sleepier when it comes to going to bed at night.

------
rsd79
And now for something completely different - try dumping the things you have
on your mind into a trusted system - part of Getting Things Done productivity
method. This will help you in avoiding thinking about all that in bed.

------
quickthrower2
Are you using a todo list or kanban. This might help you dump stuff from your
mind to somewhere safe knowing you’ll take care of it the next day. Also might
help with prioritisation: grooming your own backlog every morning.

------
LinuxBender
This will duplicate some things others have already said, but a few factors
are:

\- Amount of caffeine. Caffeine has a 12 hour half life. 12 hours after your
last caffeinated drink, you will have 50% of the caffeine in your system.
Healthy adults should not exceed 400mg/day regardless.

\- Amount of D3 and B vitamins your gut bacteria are deficient in. Your gut
bacteria need energy to break down the foods you eat for the symbiotic
relationship that break down fiber and other things required for your health.
If they do not have enough D3 and B (all B vitamins), they will give off
proteins that will induce stress / cortisol. This becomes a cyclical problem
if not addressed.

\- Environmental stress. If your mind has too many unresolved issues, your
cortisol levels will be too high. Delegate as many issues to other people as
you can. This is probably going to be a hard one if you are a founder. It's
hard to let go, especially if you are passionate about your ideas and goals.

\- Not enough sleep. But wait, that is the problem, right? Lacking sleep
raises toxicity levels in your body, including your brain. This creates a
cyclical problem that will worsen with time. Your brain keeps track of how
much sleep it lost and at some point you will experience hallucinations or
waking dreams when this catches up with you. Deep sleep (all four stages) are
required to allow your brain to purge toxic material. Do not use sedatives /
drugs to sleep. That isn't real sleep. D3, L-Theanine (amino acid), 5-HTP
(amino acid) can help with hormones that can make you sleepy.

\- Light. A few hours before you intend to sleep, mute the light. Use soft
lights. Avoid screens. Power off the smart phone and put it in a drawer. Wear
a sleep mask (intended for day sleepers, but helps cut out tiny bits of light
from LED's on devices)

There are MANY more factors, but I have to go to a meeting and don't have time
to put all the nih.gov references here. Maybe I will add some later today.

~~~
taloft
All good points. Note that caffeine has a half life of 5 to 6 hours, rather
than 12. I’d cite it, but a simple search makes this apparent.

~~~
LinuxBender
Thankyou for the correction. I am probably mis-remembering from a talk that
Dr. Matthiew Walker gave at Google about sleep. I will need to figure out
where I got the 12 hours from.

------
29athrowaway
A good starting point is learning how the sleep cycle is regulated.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pineal_gland#Function](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pineal_gland#Function)

------
93po
Sleep is very difficult for me but sleeping pills help a ton. I just take half
of an OTC one and it helps a lot. But you have to take breaks because it stops
working as your body gets a tolerance.

------
xlaacid
limit caffeine, find the best time to go to bed and keep to it, for the
stress; have a notebook by your bed and write down all the things you need to
do the next day- now they're not in your head. here for more sleep
tips-[https://www.sleepfoundation.org/articles/sleep-
hygiene](https://www.sleepfoundation.org/articles/sleep-hygiene)

from a former sleep researcher

------
psychotik
Do you work out or do physical exercise of some sort? For me, that was/is the
key to good sleep.

------
mmusc
Try some melatonin spray. Does wonders for me

------
PlaneSploit
Take anti-anxiety medication.

------
GlenTheMachine
I'm going to treat this answer as if you're suffering from insomnia. True
insomnia may or may not be your problem, that's up for you and possibly your
doctors to figure out.

The basics for treating insomnia:

\- exercise regularly

\- eat healthily

\- get enough sunlight at the right time of day. If you're waking up too early
then you want more sunlight in the afternoon and evening.

\- practice good sleep hygiene. This means you only use your bedroom for two
activities: sleep and sex. If you lie in bed for more than fifteen minutes
without falling to sleep or wake up early and can't get back to sleep, get up
and go somewhere else until you are sleepy again. Don't lie in bed trying to
sleep. The brain becomes acclimatized to being awake in bed, and that's bad.

Now, the medication-based approaches:

\- consult with a neurologist if the above approaches don't help.

\- Personally I found a low-dose anti-anxiety medication to be extremely
helpful. Many of these cause dependence and can be hard to get off of, but on
the other hand chronic lack of sleep has significant medical risks of its own,
so I felt the tradeoff was a good one.

\- prescription sleep medications can also be helpful, although somewhat less
so for someone who wakes up too early as opposed to someone who has difficulty
falling asleep. If you go this route, you probably want to try Sonata, which
has a short half life versus, say, Ambient and therefore leaves you feeling
less drugged after three or four hours.

\- I also found Rozerem to be very helpful. Unlike all other sleep
medications, Rozerem is a melatonin receptor agonist. It does not sedate you;
it reinforces your circadian rhythms. It does not leave me feeling drugged and
does not affect my sleep architecture.

Now, the Cognitive Behavioral Therapy approach:

\- you can train your brain to associate "bed" with "sleep". It ain't easy,
but for many people it works and doesn't require medication.

\- figure out how long you're sleeping on average.

\- for a week, do not go to bed at all until one full hour less than your
average sleep duration. In other words, if you sleep six hours a night and
wake up at 7, don't go to bed until 2 AM. Keep this up for a week. The idea is
to intentionally build up a sleep deficit, so your body will go to sleep
quickly and stay asleep. Continue to religiously wake up and get out of bed at
7.

\- the next week give yourself an extra fifteen minutes of sleep. Go to bed at
1:45 AM, or get up at 7:15.

\- keep this up until you are getting the amount of sleep you need.

\- If at any time you find yourself not going to sleep immediately or waking
up too early, back up fifteen minutes.

\- By the end of the process you hopefully have retrained your brain to
associate being in bed with being asleep.

I personally found consulting with a neurologist and figuring an approach that
worked for me to be very helpful.

