
Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store - sehugg
http://toucharcade.com/2015/06/25/apple-removes-confederate-flag/
======
Mithaldu
Germany has a law about this, with some exceptions that would specifically
apply to cases like this one:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafgesetzbuch_§_86a](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafgesetzbuch_§_86a)

When a movie like Iron Sky has no problem being shown in German cinemas with
the swastika left untouched, because it's clearly art, then it should be
fairly obvious to Apple that banning historically accurate representations in
historically accurate interactive art is far overreaching; though not legally,
but ethically.

~~~
TillE
Apple is quite explicitly uninterested in artistic expression on the app
store. From the second paragraph in their guidelines:

"We view Apps different than books or songs, which we do not curate. If you
want to criticize a religion, write a book. If you want to describe sex, write
a book or a song, or create a medical App."

Their stance makes very little sense (arbitrarily dividing games away from
books or films), but there it is.

~~~
nmrm2
Their stance makes perfect sense. The App Store is not a commons, it is the
private property of Apple, in which they curate the works of others at their
convenience. _But unlike a book store or a music store, they can closely
associate what they stock with the brand becaues the "App" medium is so new_.

It's pretty similar to a local coffee shop maintaining a few book cases for
customers to borrow or buy, but being pretty strict about what books can be
put in their selection.

Ultimately, I suspect they are more controlling about apps than about books or
music because apps are (or were) a new medium that, for both financial and
marketing reasons, they wanted to think about differently. Apple probably
feared (and/or hoped) that Apps would have a more intimate connection to their
brand than e.g., the tracks in iTunes.

(edit: 1. Not saying I agree; 2. this post is a _descriptive_ conjecture about
_why /how_ Apple treats apps differently, not an advocacy that they continue
to do so. Jeesh.)

~~~
Mithaldu
Your simile is completely off. It's not like a local coffee shop with book
cases, it's like a (fictitious) company that has a monopoly on stocking the
book cases in all coffee shops nation-wide. Your cellphone is the coffee shop.

~~~
nmrm2
Okay, fine. The coffee shop is Starbucks.

The simile is only stronger in that case. The local coffee shop might be OK
stocking some Marxist rags or hard core Libertarian texts or whatever the
owner likes. Meanwhile, Starbucks only stocks the inoffensive books. Thus, the
masses go to Starbucks because they want a cup of coffee from a nice normal
person, and don't want to have to listen to a bunch of Marxists talk down to
them while waiting in line or (perceive that they are being) condescended to
by a Barista.

The book case simile is fictional, but Starbucks appropriating only the
completely inoffensive parts of the canonical local coffee shop is a perfect
parallel example.

------
mladenkovacevic
The scariest thing is how fast sweeping and unanimous these acts of compliance
are.

It's like these companies just woke up suddenly, had a conference call and
without a hint of discussion, analysis or feedback started enforcing moral
revisionism. It reeks of dishonest, cheap PR.

What's next on the agenda?

The saddest part is that this has totally taken over the discussion of
shootings in North Carolina. US is unique in that 9 people gunned down in cold
blood somehow turns into a discussion about a flag?

~~~
onewaystreet
Because gun control is pretty much dead in the US. If 20 children being killed
in the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting wasn't enough to pass new
legislation, 9 adults certainly wouldn't be. The flag has become an issue so
politicians can be seen "doing something."

~~~
justizin
> The flag has become an issue so politicians can be seen "doing something."

I think that's a little more cynical than need be. Most of the politicians who
are doing anything about the flag are Republicans and they are doing it
despite the fact that it is upsetting some of their base, in a rare show of
basic decency.

The retailers who stopped selling merchandise are saying that they don't want
to make money selling racist memorabilia. Apple is more or less saying that as
well - though they could potentially reverse their opinion on this singular
case. These decisions are made by relatively low-level employees following
unwritten guidelines.

I see nothing wrong with a bunch of Apple employees waking up one day, coming
into work, and receiving an announcement that, "We're getting rid of the
confederate flag."

~~~
shaftoe
Can one ever be cynical enough when politicians are involved?

------
protomyth
This is absolute BS. Using a flag in a historical context should not be
censored. Did they sensor history apps? Once again, app developer take a hit
while "real authors / artists" don't have to deal with this crap.

------
yequalsx
Here is part of Mississippi's Declaration of Secession:

"Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - the
greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product, which
constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the
earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical
regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear
exposure to the tropical sun. "

It astounds me that there are large numbers of whites in this country who
think the Civil War was about anything other than slavery. The Confederate
flag represents and evil institution and represents the evil intent of white
Southern power brokers 155 years ago.

I don't have an opinion as such on Apple's decision but let's not pretend that
the Confederate flag is anything other than a symbol of overt racism.

~~~
Brendinooo
I don't have a horse in this race - I'm a 'Northerner' who doesn't fly the
Confederate flag and has never been a fan of people who do, but I never felt
like it was my place to call others out. As such, I don't particularly take
issue with the removal of the flag from public institutions. It's probably a
good thing.

However, I do take issue with narrow oversimplifications, and as such I would
encourage you to do some research before making such blanket statements.

I have some people close to me who once wore t-shirts that had elements of the
flag on them. If I were to ask them why they wore it, they would not answer or
think anything along the lines of "overt racism." They're just people who have
a bit of a redneck streak, are into country music, hunting, etc.

Symbols are what we make them to be. As someone in the design world I am very
aware of this. Perhaps your experience is that everyone around you who sports
the flag is an overt racist, but that hasn't been the experience for me. Do I
still think it's misguided to use the flag? Personally, yes. But I think to
paint the issue with such a broad brush doesn't do anyone any good.

Same thing about those "who think the Civil War was about anything other than
slavery" \- I think there's a solid case to be made for that among the "power
brokers", but as is the case in history, things were much more nuanced,
particularly for the rank and file. Search around a bit for why your average
non-slave-owning Southerner signed up for the war, or even look at a guy like
Robert E. Lee.

If you're interested in the nuances of the secession question, check out
[http://history.stackexchange.com/q/2056](http://history.stackexchange.com/q/2056)
\- lots of good points on either end of the spectrum.

TL;DR: History is complex, be careful about blanket statements.

~~~
nmrm2
_> They're just people who have a bit of a redneck streak, are into country
music, hunting, etc._

I know what you're saying, having grown up in the non-deep south. However, I
disagree with you.

The flag makes a lot of people very uncomfortable (and for very good reasons).
Placing one's sense of self-importance/rebellion above other's feelings of
safety and belonging in a community that has historically enslaved and
murdered them shows a profound lack of sympathy. Punk kids might just be
ignorant of that reality, but grown adults should and do know better.

For that reason, I absolutely believe any adult who flies the flag _is_ being
racist in their wilful neglect of the traumatizing history it rightfully
represents, in the same sense that all holocaust deniers _are_ anti-Semitic
regardless of whether they would perpetuate another holocaust.

Some things really are black and white. Flying a symbol of racial terrorism is
one of them.

~~~
justizin
Agree with what you say, also take issue with the previous commenter's notion:

> Symbols are what we make them to be.

I think this is a really dangerous point of view.

There are certainly some symbols with wiggle room, but I would argue that
symbols transcend language by encoding meaning.

------
JohnGB
So what about all WWII games that have a swastika, or any number of historical
flags that are simply referencing history rather than supporting an ideal?

This is plain ridiculous.

~~~
mc32
They might as well ban the Turkish flag too as that is a symbol of the
genocide against Armenians --or the Soviet flag as it symbolizes the
oppression of many nations and peoples by the soviet regime.

And apple would cede, if the people affected made enough of a fuss, so this
whole thing is more about perception and PR more than actual beliefs in
justice, etc.

~~~
merpnderp
Doesn't the Soviet flag represent engineered famines that killed tens of
millions? Certainly on par with the South's flag.

~~~
norea-armozel
I guess no one heard about holodomor famines.

------
gadders
This is getting silly now. All for removing the flag from public buildings,
but this is going too far.

Can someone get Taylor Swift on the case please?

------
arca_vorago
A slippery slope down the road to censorship. When you place yourself at the
head of the censorship table, you open up a can of worms that is difficult to
close. (and no, I am not referencing "censorship" of illegal material)

For me though, this is nothing new for Apple, and it's why I don't like their
software in general. As RMS said, roughly, "Apple puts the user in a prison.
It is a beautiful prison though."

Some people embrace the beautiful prison for it's simplicity and ease of use.
I suppose that's their choice, but what will they do when they wake up and
realize they hate the new warden, after they are so tied into the ecosystem?

I still think those who embrace FOSS now will be at a huge advantage as time
progresses and the nanny mentality of companies such as Apple and Microsoft
becomes more prevalent, and users of those will be at a large disadvantage.
RMS is a man ahead of his time and only time will prove him right. As a matter
of fact, I think that's part of the reason why MS is trying to get more ground
in the open source community, because they understand that FOSS is actually
becoming a threat these days, and they are trying wildly to stop the
haemorrhaging.

In Apple's defense though, I do view them as the lesser of two evils, and
would gladly push OSX/iOS on users rather than Windows/Windows Mobile. At
least it's unix under the hood, and we can see _most_ of the source code.

~~~
mindslight
> _I still think those who embrace FOSS now will be at a huge advantage as
> time progresses and the nanny mentality of companies such as Apple and
> Microsoft becomes more prevalent_

I'm not so sure about that. Apple is doing this to _gain favor_ with their
customers, who want to feel safe in an insular bubble.

I had long thought that Free would win out economically, when centralized
stores were forced to ban torrent clients and the like, but unfortunately the
zeitgeist has even shifted to pay streaming apps. This is the real damage that
centralization causes - the _culture_ gets permanently warped from
internalizing good-enough solutions.

Then again we've had decades of receive-only broadcast media conditioning
people into thinking centralization is the natural way of things, so maybe
it's just going to take that much longer to break it up. Still, I feel that
this current decentralization swing might be our last chance to correctly
distribute _power_ , besides the otherwise inevitable societal collapse.

------
MBCook
This is a _very_ Apple move.

When I saw it, I wasn't surprised. There are Civil War games where it makes
total sense for the flag to show, and there are probably a few tasteless "The
south will rise again" things that never should have been allowed on in the
first place.

But it takes a lot of people and time to figure it out for each app on the
store. And when it comes to this kind of stuff Apple doesn't like spending
lots of people and time on these kind of things.

Blanket bans are so much easier to implement.

Quite disappointing, but not surprising. And they'll probably reverse parts of
it within days. Or new games will slip through and people will forget about
it.

~~~
jasonlotito
> But it takes a lot of people and time to figure it out for each app on the
> store.

They've already approved these apps. They already have the people to approve
these apps.

> And when it comes to this kind of stuff Apple doesn't like spending lots of
> people and time on these kind of things.

Incorrect. They've already demonstrated they want to do this. After all, you
had to have people find and remove these apps in the first place.

~~~
MBCook
> They've already approved these apps. They already have the people to approve
> these apps.

The truth is Apple approves a ton of stuff that is clearly and directly
against clauses of the App Store rules. They seem to exist mostly to let Apple
pull your app later and have a pre-defined reason. Enforcement is incredibly
inconsistent, so it wouldn't surprise me at all if there was some pretty
racist stuff that had been there before this event; despite hate apps being
against policy.

> Incorrect. They've already demonstrated they want to do this. After all, you
> had to have people find and remove these apps in the first place

But they don't have to critically examine the game to understand the context,
only determine if it contains a confederate flag. Hell, maybe they used a
program to dissect app bundles and scan all images to see if they match the
flag and probably ban those.

~~~
jasonlotito
> The truth is...

Yes, I know. That doesn't mean they get a free pass because of it.

> But they don't have to critically examine the game...

Yes, I know, but once again, that doesn't mean they get a free pass because of
it.

Listen, you are giving them excuses. Excuses that are, frankly, wrong. They
are a company with massive resources. They could have done this the right way.
They decided not to. It's as simple as that.

They are wrong. They did wrong. End of story.

------
ap3
Are Siri and the Wikipedia app next on the list ?

I don't understand the ban on the historical apps - the civil war did happen
and the confederate flag was used.

Are nazi flags and symbols banned from ww2 games ?

~~~
infimum
yes, they actually
are.[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#Germany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#Germany)

~~~
kuschku
No, they are not:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9777948](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9777948)

~~~
BonsaiDen
They are. Games are not recognized as art here in Germany, so they do not get
the same treatment as movies or books and have to remove the references.
International releases of these games are actually illegal in Germany and
owning them is an indictable act, although actual criminal charges are very
rare (since there's hardly a way of controlling the digital distribution).

~~~
Mithaldu
You're all right and wrong. They are in a quantum state. The youth protection
agency thinks games are not art and as such wishes to not allow them. However
the matter has never been in front of a legal court, and until that is done,
they are only censored out or pro-active fear, not because they're actually
illegal.

------
tempodox
What? Blast “the American Nation”, this is pure revisionism. Lying history out
of existence because it's not hip at the moment. Apple's obsession with
political-correctness-gone-wrong is unbelievable.

------
mariodiana
Political correctness has gone mainstream, turning American culture into a
Neo-Puritan age where everyone is elbowing past others to demonstrate how
righteous and socially conscious he or she is.

------
ccvannorman
Apple has proven, time and again, that it heavily favors censorship in the
name of profits. The real issue we should be talking about is the de-facto
monopoly Apple has because of their hardware device success (e.g. iPhone), and
how and when this monopoly will be prevented from censoring the speech and
content of millions of lives.

Or do we expect monopolistic censorship to be the new norm of the future?
Disgusting.

~~~
caryhartline
Is it censorship in the name of profits when they make less money by taking
apps off the App Store?

~~~
slayed0
Short term vs. long term. The immediate short term loss (probably very small)
is income from these apps. The long term gain is company image and being known
as a company that "does the right thing". There are countless examples of
Apple giving up short term profits to preserve this image, which they
obviously believe is responsible for greater profits in the long term.

------
moron4hire
This is clearly going too far.

~~~
joshuapants
I agree. It's one thing to stop selling actual Confederate flags, it's another
to try and scrub any mention of a historical event or depiction of a certain
symbol in context.

Apple is certainly within their rights to do this, but I think it's silly and
impulsive.

~~~
melling
No, it's wrong to stop selling the Confederate flag too. We don't seem to
value freedom of speech and expression like we should. We are basically going
on modern witch hunts against people who disagree with anything that's not
politically correct.

~~~
__z
If you want a Confederate battle flag there are lots of places you can buy
one. If you feel they aren't available enough to your liking you are free to
make one or even start selling them yourself.

Walmart making a business decision to stop selling something that is racist
has nothing to do with freedom of speech. It would also be a poor business
decision to start selling ISIS flags, Nazi symbolism, those racist figurines
that were once popular, a holocaust reenactment video game, KKK robes, or any
other merchandise that divides their customer base. So what?

Part of freedom is the freedom to _choose_ what you do and don't sell.

~~~
melling
Why would Amazon refuse to sell the Confederate flag but not Nazi merchandise?

[http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/25/us-usa-shooting-
so...](http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/25/us-usa-shooting-south-
carolina-internet-idUSKBN0P42V620150625)

~~~
__z
Where does it say Nazi merchandise is allowed on Amazon?

>EBay specifically bans their sale while Amazon bans the sale of " _products
that promote or glorify hatred, violence, racial, sexual or religious
intolerance or promote organizations with such views._ "

Seems to me they both [generally] ban Nazi merchandise but have problems
enforcing the ban.

Anyways, its irrelevant. Amazon can sell what it wants. _That 's a business
choice they make._ I don't care what they choose to sell, that is their
choice.

------
fixxer
So, they're in effect banning historical fiction? None of these games condone
slavery, do they?

I totally get and agree with removing the Confederate flag from state flags in
the United States -- The confederacy failed. But, must we deny an important
part of US history happened?

------
rrss1122
Why is everyone trying to erase history all of a sudden? Because somebody felt
bad?

~~~
jameskilton
Please don't hyperbolize. Removing the Confederate flags from public places
like government buildings and refusing to sell merchandise with the flag is
_not_ erasing history.

And I'd call the regular terrorizing and murder of black people under this
flag far more than "someone felt bad".

Apple simply took a way-to-heavy-handed approach here.

~~~
RyanZAG
It's the flag that is terrorizing people, or people doing it? Will the
terrorizing be better if it happens under a different flag? I have a hard time
believing the flag is at fault and not the people, or that removing a flag
will stop people from doing the same acts.

~~~
hackuser
The flag, flying on a statehouse, sends a message that racial hatred is
acceptable to society. It doesn't make someone kill (and there are many more
problems with racism than murders or that one incident), but it creates an
environment where hate appears to be acceptable.

------
hackuser
I think it's great that Confederate symbols are being removed from government
and commercial situations, but somehow it's different for Apple; they have too
much power over what their users see and read (though I suppose the users can
access whatever websites they want). Mobile apps and games are a significant
social medium, and should include political expression. As a weak analogy,
though I'm glad various governments may get rid of the flag, I'd very strongly
oppose the government banning private citizens from owning them.

While what Apple says about privacy is admirable, end-user control is still a
serious problem.

------
dmschulman
It'll be great to read the headline "Apple Brings Back American Civil War
Games to the App Store" once they realize what a boneheaded move this was.

------
michaelrhansen
It is a historical reference. This clearly was not well thought out.

~~~
hodwik
Except it's not historical, the south didn't actually fly that flag at
Gettysburg.

~~~
vonmoltke
Actually, it was the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia for the
entire war following First Manassas, and since the Gettysburg campaign was an
ANV campaign it most certainly was flown there.

~~~
hodwik
I thought the NVA flag was the square jack? The rectangle jack was a navy flag
as far as I know.

------
nathan_long
A lot of the debate here pits "users can decide what's acceptable" against
"Apple can decide what to sell".

The only reason these seem incompatible is that iPhone owners can only get
apps from Apple.

If you want both Apple and users to have freedom of choice, lock-in is the
real enemy.

(Side note: lock-in also goes hand-in-hand with DRM, which goes hand-in-hand
with surveillance: if the user isn't allowed to see what code they're running,
and the software company isn't allowed to disclose what the government made
them do, then the user can't know how their device is bugged. Cory Doctorow
explains nicely how fighting lock-in and DRM is good for political freedom,
too: [https://vimeo.com/123473929](https://vimeo.com/123473929))

------
scelerat
I'm all for honest public reevaluation of the symbols of the CSA, but this
strikes me as a cheap (for Apple) PR move and not conducive to that
discussion.

If anything it will feed into the paranoid narratives advanced by those who
truly believe in the symbolism of the Confederate battle flag, triggering the
Streisand effect, or a close relative of it.

------
kranner
123 points in 2 hours and this is already on page 2 because the number of
comments exceeds the number of upvotes? I would have missed this discussion if
I hadn't checked HN in the last 2 hours.

Is it time for HN to review whether the upvotes-vs-comments penalization-
heuristic still makes sense? It's feeling a little ad hoc and brittle to me.

------
crxgames
This is ridiculous. I bet they leave Nazi WWII games.

~~~
Zigurd
This is, quite possibly, reasonable.

As you point out, they probably approve WWII historical games with Nazi
symbols in them. But they probably don't approve content that glorifies
Naziism.

So if you have content that wasn't similarly vetted regarding the CORRECTION:
Army of Northern Virginia battle flag (not "stars and bars"), what can you do
but de-authorize all of it and start over?

~~~
vonmoltke
Nitpick: the "Stars and Bars" flag and the ANV battle flag are not the same:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_State...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America#First_national_flag:_.22The_Stars_and_Bars.22_.281861.E2.80.931863.29)

~~~
Zigurd
Hardly a nitpick! That deserves a correction. "Stars and bars" is a
commonplace misnomer. Army of Northern Virginia battle flag is probably the
correct thing to call it.

------
jfoutz
I thought the Union flag had somewhere around 35 stars.

It's Apple's playground, they can do whatever they want. This seems ham fisted
to me, but i understand the desire to simply eradicate all evidence. They're
not in the business of historical accuracy. They're in the business of selling
stuff. bad feelings about imagery interferes with selling stuff.

------
NoGravitas
Interesting question for me -- can you/are you expected to play as the
Confederates in these games? Because a game where you play as the Union and
the Confederates are the "bad guys" is certainly not glorifying the "Lost
Cause", no matter how many Confederate flags there are in it.

------
zelos
Possibly this is just Apple pushing the burden of proof onto the developers?
They could have had their app reviewers go through every app one by one and
try to understand the context, or they can do this and force the developers
that care to justify the use of the flag.

Pretty stupid, anyway.

------
kirkbackus
It's quite ironic that Apple is setting a precedent for the intolerance of any
symbol of slavery while they are knowingly supporting manufacturing which
utilizes child labor, which is often forced labor. The epitome of hypocrisy
which hopefully leads Apple to change.

~~~
eric_h
You seriously need to cite some sources if you're going to make a claim like
that.

~~~
shaneramey
[http://www.bbc.com/news/business-30532463](http://www.bbc.com/news/business-30532463)

[http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/apr/30/apple-
chin...](http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/apr/30/apple-chinese-
workers-treated-inhumanely)

[http://www.businessinsider.com/afp-apple-suppliers-
accused-o...](http://www.businessinsider.com/afp-apple-suppliers-accused-of-
poor-treatment-of-workers-2014-12)

The accusations are some widespread that it caused Apple to publish this:
[https://www.apple.com/supplier-
responsibility/](https://www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/)

------
transfire
The North has finally won the war!

------
snarfy
Will they also remove WWII games with Nazi flags?

~~~
merpnderp
Why stop there? The Hammer and Sickle represent the slaughter and enslavement
of tens of millions. The Chinese flag at one point represented normal people
being forced to run small metal smelters in their backyards exposing them to
the joys of heavy metal poisoning and rank air pollution (when they weren't
being starved for political reasons).

We have a lot of flags left to ban!!!

------
vezzy-fnord
It isn't even historically accurate anyway because the CSA never actually used
that flag. It was briefly used as the battle flag of the Army of Northern
Virginia.

~~~
Someone1234
What you're saying doesn't seem historically accurate:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_State...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America#Second_national_flag)

Even being extremely pedantic it doesn't seem accurate, that symbol was used
all over the place during the American Civil war to support the Confederated
states (both as a battle flag, and as their second and within their third
official flags).

Essentially when the war ended that was their primary symbol, and would be
completely appropriate to be used in a war game about the American civil war.

------
Shivetya
So we are to assume they will remove Dukes of Hazard from iTunes to complete
their kneejerk reaction to this issue? There are probably quite a few album
covers with that flag or approximations of it, let alone TV shows and movies.

American Civil War games are not racist nor is representing the Civil War or
any other conflict in a game. What is next? Scrubbing history books of any
offending flag or words?

------
hughw
So many comments here, on this topic, are in the sense of "Oh great we're
talking about a symbol, while not fixing the root causes like guns and
racism". I have a sense that's a POV of West Coasters, simply unable to fathom
the depth of this symbol and its importance to racists, anti-racists, and its
presence permeating everyday life in the South. Removing this symbol is a
traumatic step even for many people of good will. The symbol is everywhere,
and usually is employed innocuously. So getting rid of the symbol, even where
used innocuously, means that even the people who intend no harm by it, have
come to be conscious of the pain it causes to black descendants of slaves,
every day. It's a big step for the southern "middle".

------
jordanpg
All of the objections along legal and moral lines are missing the point. While
those objections are valid in many cases, the point is that this flag is the
symbol of the moment. A rough analogy is the way in which marriage equality
has become a proxy for gay rights (whether this is accurate or not).

If the flag is shamed out of the public zeitgeist, in the same way that the
n-word or the c-word have been, then that is a _symbolic victory_ for those on
the side of civil rights.

Whatever you think about the actual meaning or symbolism or historical context
of the flag is beside the point.

Arguments about the importance of "heritage" fall flat because symbols do not
_teach_ history; they simply stand in for particular narratives.

------
solveforall
I understand that the Confederate flag evokes strong, negative reactions from
black people, as it probably should. So it may be disturbing to see the flag
while browsing the App Store, and this is something Apple justifiably would
want to prevent, and they have the right to do so. But to ban the display of a
Confederate flag within a Civil War game that you have intentionally
downloaded seems ludicrous. Games like this seem quite educational and to
strip them of historical accuracy for the sake of political correctness is a
real shame.

I feel this is another sign that we are headed towards a culture that does not
tolerate anything that might offend anyone, an intolerance of intolerance.

~~~
MBCook
Apple will change directions on this and fix the historical games and such
that are taken down, they always do. It will probably be a non-issue within a
week or two.

This is just the quickest, laziest, and a relatively ham-fisted way to get rid
of the actually problematic apps, so that's what they did. Sadly thats kinda
status-quo for Apple dealing with this kind of stuff.

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deedubaya
Banning the symbol will only add credit to and strengthen the idea.

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DanBC
I'd be interested to know if they allow some of these (unmodified) games back
on.

I suspect this is a poorly handled auto ban of anything with the flag and not
the intended result.

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tosseraccount
Apple can do what they want. Free speech and all.

That said, this is silly.

Apple should respect their developers and let them use historical symbols used
by the opposing sides.

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GBond
Apple App Store is a private market and thus can legally take down any content
they deem. The risk is Apple come off as tone-deaf and with such an over-
reaching move. But still that may be a calculated negative impact as Apple has
always been image conscience. They don't want to be the next target for the
social media #takeitdown mob.

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kctess5
Interesting. It seems like in a historical context such as this, accuracy is
more important than some random current events association thing. Weird move,
Apple...

Removing "unnecessary" references (ones without any historical context or
other legit justification) might be more reasonable.

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rak_112
SJWs ruin every thing they touch.

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a3voices
People are way too oversensitive. Reminds me of Muslims getting upset over
cartoon drawings of their prophet.

~~~
adventured
Non-stop outrage. It has become a fiesta of outrage porn.

It's like an emotional drug addiction for some people, they can't get enough
outrage. They'll invent it as needed.

The media loves it to, it's great for ratings. So you have both sides feeding
on a perpetually worsening cultural spiral.

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skc
Their platform, their rules. Simple as that.

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salgernon
Are they pulling all references to actual confederate States flags, or the
army flag of Robert E Lee which more closely resembles the "confederate flag"
used in racist contexts today.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_Sta...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America)

It seems like the solid flag is now pretty much only used For shock value and
racist advertisement, without the historical content.

I liked what Dave Winer had to say about his experience with it:

[http://scripting.com/2015/06/22/theConfederateFlagIsAHateCri...](http://scripting.com/2015/06/22/theConfederateFlagIsAHateCrime.html)

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k-mcgrady
I get the feeling a lot of people here don't understand how important and
destructive symbols like this can be. As stupid as it sounds symbols like that
can have a huge impact on society and free speech isn't always the solution. I
don't know how corrosive this particular symbol is as I'm not from the states
but in general it is completely understandable to me coming from a place where
stuff like this is a huge deal with big impacts on society.

~~~
noarchy
>free speech isn't always the solution

>I'm not from the states

There's a cultural difference that rears its head here. Free speech in the US
seems to be nearly-absolute when compared to even its northern neighbour
(Canada), which has some provisions for "hate speech". Europe, from what I can
see, is even more interventionist. I'm not using this post to argue for or
against either perspective, but only to show that people from outside the US
bring a very different perspective to the table, and it is reflected in their
laws.

~~~
k-mcgrady
Very true. I don't like the idea of being so rigid though. It seems like
Americans stick to the idea of things like free speech or right to bear arms
(basically constitutional ideas) without considering the fact they may not be
right or times have changed. It's almost a religious zealotry as evidenced by
the quick down voting of my post.

NB (to everyone not noarchy): Down down vote things you disagree with - down
vote things that don't add to the conversation.

~~~
bobcostas55
>Down down vote things you disagree with - down vote things that don't add to
the conversation.

The irony is palpable.

~~~
k-mcgrady
Not really. I don't think we should forget about symbols like that flag. They
should be debated openly and freely. Same goes for the debate here. But if a
large group of people are intimated by the 'speech' (Flag) then I think it's
perfectly reasonable to remove it.

