
Pigs are smart and sensitive, yet we continue to justify killing them for food - doener
https://aeon.co/essays/what-more-evidence-do-we-need-to-stop-killing-pigs-for-food
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ubersoldat2k7
Not only smart and sensitive, they are very very clean. We have a minipig and
it won't do any of its stuff on its house or surroundings. I'm sure the big
ones, if weren't forced because of us humans to live enclosed, would behave
the same way.

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mnm1
The incorrect premise here is that we won't kill and/or eat smart animals.
Cute animals may (or may not) get a pass, but humans don't care about smart
animals. After a decade and a half as a vegetarian, I realized we're nowhere
advanced enough to make a difference in this or most other causes and a
lifetime of vegetarianism won't even make a difference. Hell, we can't even
stop killing ourselves and causing mass extinction events through our actions.
A human, in its natural state, is the most disgusting, cruelest, nastiest
creature in the known universe. Until we can figure out how to provide tools
to the majority of people to raise them up out of this state (at least levels
1-2 of Maslow's pyramid), we have no hope in hell of fixing problems like
this. This is not an argument to not try. It's simply an explanation of what
is. If we ever get to a point where humans are able to fix such problems and
have empathy and respect for each other and other creatures, it'll be amazing
indeed. I certainly won't see it in my life or any of my peers' children's
lives, I'm pretty sure of that, but I think certain cultures have indeed made
big strides towards this in the last 50-100 years.

~~~
dpark
> _A human, in its natural state, is the most disgusting, cruelest, nastiest
> creature in the known universe._

Claims like this are utterly lacking perspective. Cats will happily torture
smaller animals. Primates hunt each other. Dolphins rape. Humans are animals,
yes. In no way are they more disgusting or cruel than others, though.

~~~
mnm1
Comparing cats torturing other animals to systematic genocide, using nuclear
weapons on others, starving whole populations, and other atrocities committed
by humans is what lacks perspective. Another big difference is that we are
capable of knowing what is right and wrong and _choose_ to still hurt and
torture others en masse. We are now close to _choosing_ to likely cause a
worldwide extinction event, but somehow a cat torturing a mouse is comparable?
No other creature even comes close.

~~~
true_religion
> Comparing cats torturing other animals to systematic genocide, using nuclear
> weapons on others, starving whole populations, and other atrocities
> committed by humans is what lacks perspective.

Are any of these things the 'natural' state of humanity? It looks like you
only get to that after at least a few thousand years of cultural development
as a whole, and two decades plus socialization to adulthood in a person.

I feel like cats certainly _would_ commit genocide if they had the mental
capacity to plan for it.

Overall, I think that it is a wrong view that morality exists as an abstract
separate from the current social circumstance and any species (even humans)
can be measured against that perfect ideal.

~~~
mnm1
There's plenty of armies that recruit young children around 8, 9 years old as
they have been for thousands of years. You don't need nuclear bombs to commit
genocide or kill whole populations. Blades and spears will do just fine. So,
yeah, I do think this is the natural state of humanity. Even a little kid who
is not even an adult human is easily coaxed into a monster and has been so for
thousands of years.

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c517402
And yet the wild population still needs to be controlled.

[http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/a-plague-of-
pig...](http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/a-plague-of-pigs-in-
texas-73769069/)

~~~
acconrad
Opportunistic omnivores that wreak havoc on wherever they go? Sounds like
another sentient species I'm acutely familiar with. If you replaced "wild
hogs" with "humans" the narrative wouldn't read much differently, but probably
on a government/national scale. Do you believe our population be controlled by
mass killings?

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ethbro
I actually started cutting pork out of my diet after a comment on HN about
vegetarianism and meat choices pointed out the same thing. I still eat it --
because it's so ubiquitous -- but am trying to shift to chicken whenever I
have the choice.

Eating something that's smart and social just seems wrong to me, when there
are plenty of stupider animals as alternatives.

Also... watch _Okja_ on Netflix (
[https://www.netflix.com/title/80091936](https://www.netflix.com/title/80091936)
), especially the ending.

~~~
themgt
As a counterpoint I recently saw an astonishing-if-true stat of the number of
animals killed per million calories by food [1]. About 14x as many chickens
die vs pigs. Even if pigs are smarter, that may change the way you weight the
ethics a bit.

We should all be eating brainless bivalves perhaps? [2]

[1]:
[http://www.animalvisuals.org/projects/data/1mc](http://www.animalvisuals.org/projects/data/1mc)

[2]: [https://sentientist.org/2013/05/20/the-ethical-case-for-
eati...](https://sentientist.org/2013/05/20/the-ethical-case-for-eating-
oysters-and-mussels/)

~~~
acconrad
So with reference 2 I don't understand how you can be okay eating mussels but
not okay eating eggs or dairy. If a hen naturally drops eggs and those eggs
don't turn into chicks, they will rot anyway. And dairy involves no death. So
why would one be "vegan" and eat oysters but not eat dairy or eggs?

~~~
philipcristiano
Dairy and eggs both involve the death of animals. Dairy cows produce milk for
their offspring. In order for us to get milk the offspring must be removed.
Typically males are sold for veal, females continue as dairy cows. The
production of laying hens results in roughly 50/50 male vs female chickens.
Most of the males are killed shortly after hatching as they are not the
variety kept for meat.

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divbit
I know this sounds selfish, but I sometimes wonder if it would be possible to
genetically engineer a pig to stay a cute young piglet for it's entire life,
rather than turning into a large, hungry adult pig. In this way, pigs could be
companion animals, rather than food animals, and I haven't thought through all
the angles, but if I was a pig, it seems that would sound be more appealing
for sure. (Compare below images:

[http://beavercreekfarm.co/wp-
content/uploads/2015/01/Charlot...](http://beavercreekfarm.co/wp-
content/uploads/2015/01/Charlotte_5738_LR-1024x681.jpg)

[http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/disney/images/b/bb/Free_...](http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/disney/images/b/bb/Free_walt_disney_piglet_wallpaper.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140415074205)
)

~~~
koala_man
Well, we /did/ turn wolves into Pomeranians.

~~~
unclenoriega
The neoteny is real.

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RickJWag
Pigs are vicious animals that will ruthlessly attack other animals and even
humans. (In places where feral hogs run loose, they are found very difficult
to control.)

Besides, bacon is delicious.

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zzalpha
So if we've decided an animal is dumb or insensitive, it's fine?

Based on what scale? Are cows dumb enough? What about chickens? Goldfish can
be trained to swim through obstacle courses, so are they too smart?

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mcappleton
I care about animals. I try to at least only buy cage free eggs and meat from
humanely treated animals.

However I wonder if the author is also against killing lions, wolves and other
predators. Those animals are so brutal in how they kill they make people look
like angels. I don't understand how naturalists can so vigorously protect
animals who's life depends on mauling other animals regularly.

~~~
hprotagonist
it is something of a massive troll, but this essay does take your idea
seriously: [http://www.jpe.ox.ac.uk/papers/consistent-vegetarianism-
and-...](http://www.jpe.ox.ac.uk/papers/consistent-vegetarianism-and-the-
suffering-of-wild-animals/)

~~~
secstate
This is delightful, and very close to Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall's Meat
Manifesto, which is in his cookbook/textbook on eating meat entitled, Meat.
Basically, the contract we have with domesticated animals is that we'll remove
the daily suffering of a wild animal's life, and in exchange we will eat you a
time we specify. Having slaughtered animals myself, and watched animals die at
the hands of foxes and (oh God) fishers. I'd say turning them upside down and
making a single cut across their carotid artery is about as easy as it comes.

