
Send money with Gmail - marcell
http://www.google.com/wallet/send-money/
======
jrockway
Hi everyone. I've been working on this at Google for a while and would be
happy to answer any questions you might have. If you don't want to ask here,
feel free to email me at <my username> AT google.com. There might be a delay
in responding if I get a lot of messages or if you have a particularly
challenging question.

~~~
adsenseclient
My question is: when you send emails like "it has come to our attention...
fraudulent activity..." [1] [2] and confiscate $30,000+ earnings by shutting
down long-standing AdSense accounts, will you do the same to the entire Gmail
accounts, or just to the money transferring functionality?

One would have to be a fool to use this, knowing Google's arrogant heavy-
handed history of dealing with AdSense publishers (and an absolute lack of any
meaningful customer care): this is why Google Wallet has never taken off as an
alternative to PayPal in the first place.

[1] <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3803568>

[2] <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4585043>

~~~
toomuchtodo
Because Paypal is known as a bastion of neutral dispute resolution _rolls
eyes_

~~~
adsenseclient
Paypal is actually much better. When you reach about 10k/mo, they give you a
special representative from the account management team, with a special phone
number, and those guys are quite smart and easily available. First hand
knowledge.

~~~
raldi
I used to manage a Paypal account that did significantly more than that, and
nobody ever offered that to me.

~~~
peterarmstrong
Internationally I think it's $50k/mo in revenue...

------
pg
I think this is going to be really big. But it might require actual customer
service; that must have made them think twice.

~~~
jcampbell1
Many years ago, Google made statements like "we only do things that scale, and
customer support doesn't scale". It was a strong guiding philosophy for many
of the engineers, but that philosophy has eroded.

If we look at some of Google's biggest successes, it has been things that
don't scale:

\- The Ground Truth team in India, manually drawing the world's maps.

\- Manual spam detection in search results

\- Customer Support for most adwords accounts

\- Customer Support for Nexus devices

I think the executives at Google have enough evidence that "do things that
don't scale" can have a big payoff and it is really not that bad. They are
clearly no longer too chicken shit to tackle problems that require customer
support. The old Google only did things that match the business model of
search, today's Google does what it takes to win.

I wouldn't bet against their ability to provide customer support. In the last
2 years, Adwords support went from non-existant to impeccable.

~~~
phillco
Not to mention, scanning many thousands of books manually.

~~~
sickpig
I thought the same thing till I saw this

[http://hackaday.com/2012/11/16/google-books-team-open-
source...](http://hackaday.com/2012/11/16/google-books-team-open-sources-
their-book-scanner/)

------
B-Con
How is this going to be handled, as a money exchange system ("yo, here's for
covering lunch for me yesterday"), or like a payment system ("send your
payment to shop@gmail.com")?

It seems presented as the former:

> you can securely send money to friends and family in the U.S. - without
> leaving your Gmail inbox

but people will assuredly try to use it as the latter. When that happens, how
will Google address fraud claims?

Edit: Specifically, I mean, how will they investigate fraud claims? Will all
transactions be final (easiest), or will they try to refund people who make
mistakes (harder)? And what happens when a GMail account gets hacked?

~~~
harryf
The real issue issue is here;

> securely send money to friends and family _in the U.S._

Google Voice it's the same problem - most of the world can't use it. Instead
of 80/20 this is 20/80

~~~
antoinec
That's just the first step, testing to a smaller set of users. If it works
well, they will expand it to the rest of the world for sure.

~~~
eknkc
They generally don't. Many Google services have regional restrictions and had
them for years. I think they want to do these legally risky stuff within their
comfort zone.

------
clarkm
Ok, so it's 2.9% fee for credit / debit card payments. And I'm assuming the
"connect directly to your bank account" is just using ACH transfers, which
take a couple days.

Anyways, a while ago I heard a rumor that they had a team working on adding
some, um... alternative, payment methods. Does anyone know where Google Wallet
is headed with this?

 _Edit_ And here's some clues from the ToS[1]:

> 6\. Google Wallet Balance & Peer to Peer Payments

> 6.1 The P2P Service is currently available only to Senders and Recipients
> who are U.S. residents and who otherwise meet the requirements of these
> Terms of Service. The P2P Service may not be used for business, commercial
> or charitable transactions.

> 6.2.a.iii For a Funding Account that is an ACH-enabled checking or savings
> account, initiate a debit through the ACH Network in the P2P Payment amount.

> 6.6 GPC may charge fees in accordance with the then-current fee schedule, as
> stated herein. Google Wallet may assess a fee of 2.9%, with a minimum fee of
> $0.30, per P2P Payment charged to the Sender for P2P Payments processed
> through the Service. Such fee shall be waived where your Google Wallet
> Balance is used for the P2P Payment, or an ACH-enabled checking or savings
> account is the Funding Account for the P2P Payment.

Looks like they've beat out Dwolla here. Ouch.

I'm also really interested in what forbidding "charitable transactions"
actually entails. Is it just donations to 501(c)(3)s or is it gifts of other
types? How about political donations? And what's its primary purpose? My first
thought was that it must be for tax reasons, but then I remembered that people
who want to prevent PayPal charge backs often request that payments be marked
as "gifts", so it can't be disputed.

[1]
[https://wallet.google.com/legaldocument?family=0.buyertos...](https://wallet.google.com/legaldocument?family=0.buyertos&gl=US#)

~~~
dragonwriter
> I'm also really interested in what forbidding "charitable transactions"
> actually entails. Is it just donations to 501(c)(3)s or is it gifts of other
> types? How about political donations? And what's its primary purpose? My
> first thought was that it must be for tax reasons

I think its either liability reasons or just market segmentation (so that
receivers of the transactions need a merchant account of some kind); note that
they don't ever single out "charitable transactions" alone, its always an
exclusion of "business, commercial, or charitable transactions" (in several
different places in the agreement), so I would assume that the reason for
"charitable transactions" is linked to the reason for business and commercial
transactions.

------
axus
It's unclear what happens to your Google Wallet balance if your account is
closed:

2.4 Relation to your Google Account

In order to use Google Wallet Services, you must have a Google Account which
is in good standing with Google, in accordance with the Google Terms of
Service. If you or Google closes your Google Account for any reason, your
Google Wallet Account will also be closed and you will no longer be able to
access the Google Wallet Services.

~~~
tommi
It seems pretty clear from that: you loose it.

~~~
yebyen
That's not clear at all. When you close a bank account, they give you cash.
You can't close the account without bringing the balance to $0 (unless it's
done by executive fiat / government closed and froze your account with a
warrant)

------
luke_s
I know this will just get burred under the 428 comments this story already has
- but can we _please_ change the title to include "Within the US"

Not all of the worlds 7 billion people live in the united states you know ...

------
marknutter
What's not clear is how a person without a google wallet account claims the
money. Is it the same tedious process of having to verify a bank account, give
a social security number, promise a first born child, etc.

~~~
cookiecaper
It should be noted that much of this process is federally mandated across a
multitude of regulations. Since 9/11, it has been illegal to open bank
accounts without a valid SSN, so that the government can track money more
easily.

AFAIK, IANAL, IIRC, etc etc etc etc

~~~
timothya
I've known plenty of people who have opened bank accounts in the US without an
SSN. I don't think it's strictly required.

~~~
patrickod
I managed to open accounts with Chase while my SSN application was still
pending / didn't have the paperwork in hand yet. They chased me up afterwards
for it though and have sent me paperwork repeatedly asking for the information
(SSN, reason for being in the US etc) in relation to any interest paid on
accounts.

Is it possible to hold an account without any sort of tax ID number (ITIN or
SSN) Surely one of them is required?

~~~
lemming
I've had a bank account and associated credit card with HSBC in the US for
about 5 years now, and I only got an ITIN about 6 months ago. I managed to get
the account because they offer a service for Premier customers where you can
link accounts in different countries together, and I already had an account in
the UK.

However, over the years it's been a massive PITA to maintain since I'm not a
resident, and it's getting progressively more difficult - in fact I just moved
all my money out of the US to a USD account in a more friendly jurisdiction
(New Zealand, where I currently live) because it was getting to the stage
where I could see them possibly freezing my account and it being a pain to
sort out. I suspect I wouldn't be able to open the account under the same
circumstances now.

------
vinhboy
Amazon Payments allows you to send up to $1000 from your credit card for free.
Step it up Google.

~~~
VikingCoder
EDIT: It's not Amazon Payments, it's Amazon WebPay.

~~~
TallGuyShort
Looking for some citations right now, but I think personal usage of Amazon
Payments to send money to individuals is much cheaper. I'm familiar with
Amazon Checkout which is what you describe above, but longer ago, I did use
Amazon Payments to do a personal transfer and it was free. Citation or
retraction coming soon...

edit: Found it - GP may be referring to this - I have not yet looked at
Google's new offering enough to see if this is truly comparable for personal
payments, however:

Is there a fee for using Amazon WebPay?

No, there is no charge to send money using Amazon WebPay.

[https://payments.amazon.com/sdui/sdui/personal/webpay/faq#wp...](https://payments.amazon.com/sdui/sdui/personal/webpay/faq#wpFee)

~~~
VikingCoder
Ah, the main drawback I see about WebPay:

"Note: You cannot add funds to your Amazon Payments account by using a credit
card."

------
ereckers
Awesome video. The music got me kind of perked up for the day. It almost made
me forget that nobody uses Google Wallet. We've run an ecommerce store with a
decent amount of throughput for about 5 years now and I think we had 1 person
try and pay with Google Wallet (and she was a Google employee and friend at
the time).

I'm probably off on the whole thing here, because the examples in the vid show
it as sort of a way to make good with your pals and not so much for ecommerce,
but being an old timer, I sort of like to leave my money transfers to people
that specialize in it and not as an add-on to my email client.

~~~
JoeKM
Uh, given the mega conglomerate Google is making themselves out to be, I think
it's safe to say Google knows how to deal with money transferring (at least in
the U.S.). You are right though, this service reads and is purposely marketed
as a way to exchange money between close circles, and not service your
eCommerce store.

------
ChuckMcM
Interesting move on Google's part. Clearly the payments space is a getting a
lot of investment from both big and small players each with their own take on
it.

It is also the first time that it felt like Google was stepping where it might
not belong. And its a weird thing since I believe anyone should be able to do
anything and let the market decide. For some reason this gave me the same vibe
I used to get when a Microsoft would announce they were going to enter some
hot new market in order to chill any investment/work in that market. I don't
think that is their plan, but perhaps its a happy side effect they get?

I'd much rather see Google create an actual bank and then integrate with that
banks services than do it this way.

------
jpdoctor
I can't wait to send money to Mt Gox.

------
lowglow
How quickly can I get money out of google wallet? this url:
<http://www.google.com/wallet/how-it-works/in-store.html> doesn't really
render properly in chrome. I guess I can spend the money pretty easily once it
is in my wallet.

~~~
i_am_good
"Sending money with your Google Wallet Balance is always free and usually
instant. You can also send money using your bank account, which may take up to
10 business days to complete. Sending money using your credit or debit card is
almost immediate, and usually takes up to a couple of minutes."

[http://support.google.com/wallet/bin/answer.py?hl=en&ans...](http://support.google.com/wallet/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=3122600)

------
tzz
jrockway,

You said to ask you any questions, so far you only answered one single
question for the last hour. Why would you say ask me anything and don't
respond to the questions?

~~~
rogerbinns
All the questions are pretty much the same - given Google's track record of
avoiding human interaction and examples of being arbitrary, why should we
trust them this time?

------
decauth
While this obviously reduces friction in sending money, it's not clear that
this is entirely a good thing.

This would definitely make classic social-engineering tricks like Nigerian
scams easier to pull off.

[http://techcrunch.com/2009/01/20/latest-facebook-scam-
phishe...](http://techcrunch.com/2009/01/20/latest-facebook-scam-phishers-hit-
up-friends-for-cash/)

------
jiggy2011
Hmm, if they were devious they could use this to get people to sign up for G+
and by allowing micropayments to G+ accounts (they can be sent _from_
anywhere).

People will just through hoops to receive money.

------
droopyEyelids
In case there was any ambiguity about whether Google knew the 'real you' from
their logging of IPs and search terms, this should remove all of it.

In a way I think we're seeing Google striking against Facebook in what I call
the "identity wars" where each service is struggling to be an identity and
information service about people.

~~~
dragonwriter
> In case there was any ambiguity about whether Google knew the 'real you'
> from their logging of IPs and search terms, this should remove all of it.

How? I mean, obviously, if you use this service (either as a sender or
receiver) Google will know more about your real identity as part of conducting
the transaction, but how does this say anything about what Google knows "from
their logging of IPs and search terms"?

~~~
VLM
The part I can't figure out is I did "verify my identity" using my legal name,
addrs, last4ssn and bday. And it responded back in about 1 second "verified".
So how does that work? (Other than perhaps they already have a detailed file
on me LOL)

~~~
drivebyacct2
Better yet, mine failed. I'm presented with this page:
<http://i.imgur.com/hPqLd58.png>

On the phone, I'm told roughly: "I'm going to ask you four questions to verify
your identity. The questions are based on publicly available data." [hold]

(He just asked me the last four of my social and the year of my birth. And my
address. And is now preparing four questions. \- Where was my SSN issued?
Multiple choice. \- Which month was I born? Multiple choice. \- Which name are
you associated with (weird list of names? None of the Above.) \- Which county
have you lived in? Multiple choice.

I answered them correctly, obviously. Now being redirected to a survey.

~~~
jlgreco
> _Where was my SSN issued? Multiple choice. - Which month was I born?
> Multiple choice._

I am fairly certain both of those can be determined with reasonable accuracy
from your SSN itself. (the middle two digits of your SSN should roughly
correspond with the month of issue (likely the month of birth), and the first
three digits should give you the area).

Edit: Nevermind, it only asked for the last four of your SSN I guess.

~~~
drivebyacct2
Still, of the questions asked, last four of my social were the most secure in
my opinion, and it's fairly easy to come by that information.

~~~
jlgreco
Oh yes. I agree absolutely.

------
espeed
Google Wallet is using Bancorp Bank
([https://wallet.google.com/termsOfService?type=BUYER&gl=U...](https://wallet.google.com/termsOfService?type=BUYER&gl=US)),
the same as Simple.com -- so it's possible bank-account transactions could be
made fast if you use Simple for your bank.

------
ziko
I can't believe how Paypal isn't out of business. With their poor service,
dire fees and all. It's become a very poor service.

It's a massive market. Google has hit a jackpot there. I salute then.

~~~
JoeKM
PayPal is global, for one, and they have reputable foundation. They have brand
recognition too. You and me know about Stripe/Google Wallet/Amazon
Payments/Dwolla/etc. but does John Doe from Craigslist/Ebay/"Mom & Pop shop"
know about them?

~~~
ziko
No but if he uses Gmail (and it's a pretty good chance) he will. If not, he
will find out sooner or later.

Paypal's era is coming to an end, it was just a matter of time who would have
claimed it. Luckily, it was Google rather than Facebook.

------
ernestipark
This could be a huge dagger to apps like Venmo. This is so much more
convenient than using Bank of America.

Also note you need to verify your identity before you hook up your bank acct.

------
prsutherland
[http://support.google.com/wallet/bin/answer.py?hl=en&ans...](http://support.google.com/wallet/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=3026245&ctx=go)
(linked to from the main article)

> Google properties such as Google Play, Google Drive, YouTube etc. are not
> covered under the Google Wallet Purchase Protection. Please reach out to
> those products directly through their help centers.

Is gmail lumped under the "etc." above?

------
yuvadam
> "... and our customer service team will help resolve any questions you might
> have"

Yeah. Right.

------
brohoolio
Will users need to have 2 step turned on for this service?

I work at a large place, about 100k people, and we have at least 10
compromised accounts a week.

------
fizzbar
Wow. Leverage all those reams of data about us to freeze out fraudsters...
Impressive/scary if they pull it off. Hopefully they don't make too many
false-positives that result in innocent bystanders being banished from the
Kingdom of the Google.

------
beat
I don't see why this is such a big deal. I've been able to send money via
gmail for a long time now! My penis is bigger, I can get drugs from Canada, my
hair has grown back, and I've discovered long-lost wealthy relatives in
Nigeria!

------
jsnk
Could this potentially hurt Paypal monopoly?

~~~
Khao
As long as it's US-only (as with almost every cool thing Google does) it's not
a threat at all.

~~~
lucb1e
... it's US-only, again?

It won't be long before I just proxy all of my traffic through Amazon s3 or
something.

~~~
IvyMike
Given the country-specific regulatory red tape that comes with anything
involving money, there's more of an excuse than normal to roll this out
country-by-country.

~~~
revelation
Google Wallet is how old now, three+ years? They didn't even bother adding any
other way to pay than credit cards. Someone needs to tell them that there are
countries where people simply don't use credit cards. They exist, but at cost,
and the culture just isn't there.

If they continue innovating in the payment space at this rate, they will maybe
have a solution people here can actually use in 2020.

~~~
lucb1e
Talking about credit cards, what's the difference between a credit card and
just a bank account?

At my bank you can get a credit card at an added cost, but it's not needed for
anything in the Netherlands so I never looked into it.

~~~
maaku
Credit cards have nothing to do with bank accounts. Maybe you're thinking of
debit cards?

~~~
lucb1e
Uh yes I guess. With a debit card (we just call them bank cards) you withdraw
money from the bank account, but from what I've heard a credit card doesn't
work entirely the same.

~~~
maaku
Credit cards are merely debt obligations, and therefore money printing
machines. If I have a credit limit of $10k, there isn't actually a $10k
account anywhere backing that limit. The bank pays the merchant, yes, but you
can follow the trail of that money all the way up to the central bank which
created it out of nothing for purpose of fulfilling debt obligations. The
money is then destroyed when I pay the bank back at the end of the month.

To the consumer they appear basically the same (“they both have the VISA logo
right?”), but in understanding the mechanics of what is happening, they could
not be more different.

------
digitalengineer
Finally. Let's hope they can hook it up with the Play Store and Adsense (so
they can add money to that account automatically). I think that will make a
dent in PayPal's universe.

------
codereflection
I wonder if this is a re-thinking on what they want to do with Google
Checkout, as it hasn't really been taking off in the commerce realm since it's
initial release.

------
kin
I use Venmo to send money between friends. It is the ideal way to deal with
dinner bills. "Everyone just Venmo me $11". $ is sent immediately to my Venmo
balance and I can cash out at any point.

The biggest problem with Venmo was users. Only my close group of friends has
Venmo but with co-workers or strangers we have to resort to cash and bill
splits.

Pretty much everyone I know has Gmail. Google just made Venmo obsolete.

------
r00fus
A few years ago, this would've been the equivalent of an April Fools google
gag.

It's pretty amazing that it's possible now and so easy.

------
jweir
At last the true reason for the Pixel becomes clear: lovely product shots of
Google's apps.

------
pwenzel
Does anyone know what fees are incurred for using this service, and if there
is a maximum limit on the transaction amount? I had trouble finding this on
the Wallet site.

(edit: The FAQ page just says it's free, but doesn't isn't clear about limits)

~~~
jeffasinger
It seems like they charge fees for the sender, if they fund via credit card.
Otherwise it's free.

------
resu
I hope they improved their phishing/scam detection as well.

If it only takes a few clicks to 'reply with money', and if the scammer only
asks for a small amount, this method seems to have a much lower 'barrier' than
wire transfers.

------
fianchetto
I'd trust Google with my money just like I'd trust them with my real world
information.

/s

------
josephagoss
Imagine if Google set this up for Bitcoin? Every Google user gets a Bitcoin
wallet stored in their profile, and they can use this as a web wallet to send
and receive Bitcoins.

------
droopyEyelids
I wonder about the morality of this move. They basically replicating venmo
exactly. I know it's legal if there isn't a patent, but it sure feels bullyish
to me.

------
blantonl
If I was a betting man, I'd say this is almost certainly a preemptive strike
against something that Apple plans to release.

------
contingencies
Massive centralisation: information habits, social circles, spending patterns.
Globally.

Where does the "not evil" part come in? It doesn't.

------
bthomas
This seems like such an obvious thing for Facebook to do - any guesses as to
why they haven't?

------
clavalle
Hmm. Can I filter by amount of cash attached? That will make things easier to
organize.

------
anuraj
Thanks, but no thanks! Don't trust you with my money. kudos for the service
though.

------
brokentone
Interesting timing. Amazon coin also popping up as well, and Mt. Gox going
down.

------
tyang
Now might be a good time to activate two-step verification to login to Gmail.

------
rsankar
How is this different than paypal?

------
quattrofan
No thanks, I'll use bitcoin.

------
ardiyu07
How secure is this?

------
bogrollben
Dwolla killa?

------
dschiptsov
US only.

------
whoisthemachine
Wow!

------
godisdad
s/Send/Lose

------
wilfra
Very interesting how they structured the fees. Instead of how PayPal, Square,
Stripe and just about everybody else in the World does it, where it is free to
send money but merchants must pay a fee to receive it - they are making it
always free for merchants and free for users who pay from a bank account or G
Wallet balance - and users who want to pay by debit or CC have to pay a fee.

I'm not sure how the market will react to that but it's clearly deliberate and
could turn into a great way to drive adoption, as merchants will clearly
prefer to use G Wallet with no fees and will push their users toward that
whenever possible.

(I realize this is being marketed as P2P but if they intend to take down
PayPal et al, it will surely evolve into a way to pay merchants for things).

~~~
encoderer
Seems almost like their wish would be free for everybody, but of course Google
has to pay to process your credit card so they can't very well give you that
for free.

And if they charged you anything less than 1% for CC transactions, even if it
cost them less than that, they'd have people gaming it for the purpose of
accumulating CC rewards like cashback and airline miles.

