
Interview by a 15 Year Old - revorad
http://paulgraham.com/int15.html
======
Amorymeltzer
I'd like to just say thanks to Paul for doing this, it was probably hugely
meaningful to the kid. Ages ago I interviewed Neil deGrasse Tyson for an 8th
grade assignment - it is still one of the best moments of my life, and one of
the major reasons I am a scientist now.

I recently read Judd Apatow's book "Sick in the Head", wherein he interviews
comedians, beginning in high school. Looking back, I wish I'd contacted more
of my heroes. There's very real meaning that comes from it, even just to
humanize people a teenager looks up to. I'd love to see more of this.

~~~
visakanv
Tyson himself cited his experience with Carl Sagan as one of the best moments
of HIS life:

> At the time deGrasse Tyson was just a 17-year-old kid from the Bronx with
> dreams of being a scientist, but Sagan had invited him to spend a Saturday
> with him in Ithaca at Cornell University, after seeing his application to
> attend University there.

> He toured their labs there, and Sagan gave him a book, “The Cosmic
> Collection” and inscribed it “to a future astronomer”:

> DeGrasse Tyson describes how this influenced his entire life:

> At the end of the day, he drove me back to the bus station. The snow was
> falling harder. He wrote his phone number, his home phone number, on a scrap
> of paper. And he said, “If the bus can’t get through, call me. Spend the
> night at my home, with my family.”

> I already knew I wanted to become a scientist, but that afternoon I learned
> from Carl the kind of person I wanted to become. He reached out to me and to
> countless others. Inspiring so many of us to study, teach, and do science.
> Science is a cooperative enterprise, spanning the generations.

------
myth_buster

      Is there anything else that isn’t taught to young students that you wish would be 
      incorporated into the material, or any other thoughts on education?
    

I can't comment on the US education system, but back home I think one of the
most important ingredient missing from my school education was _Critical
Thinking_ [0]. I happened to stumble upon this field by happenstance and was
baffled why this is not integral to our education. I attributed this to the
assumption that free thinking and critiquing adults is not what an
authority/regime would want. Additionally most teachers/adults don't want to
be bombarded by "why"s to which they don't have an answer. But then there is
also the Hanlon's razor.

[0] Wiki def: intellectually disciplined process of actively and skillfully
conceptualizing, applying, analyzing, synthesizing, and/or evaluating
information gathered from, or generated by, observation, experience,
reflection, reasoning, or communication, as a guide to belief and action

~~~
omegaham
The funny thing is that pretty much every single curriculum says this in the
liner notes and syllabus. It's just as much of a buzzword these days as
"synergy" and "outside-the-box."

Critical thinking is simultaneously hard to teach and _uncomfortable_ to
teach. For one, when you teach someone to think critically, you now have them
questioning everything else that you're teaching them. Many, many people
define "critical thinking" as "thinking like I do." Which, of course, leads to
them discouraging critical thinking.

I had a history teacher in high school who loved talking about critical
thinking and how important it was that we question everything. He didn't like
the fact that every single one of my papers (which were all about developing a
viewpoint and explaining it) were diametrically opposed to his political
opinions.

Looking back, I wrote some genuinely cringe-worthy shit, mostly just to wind
him up. Hilariously, as mad as he got at me, I was probably one of the few
kids in the class who really took his "critical thinking" lectures to heart.

~~~
spoiler
> Many, many people define "critical thinking" as "thinking like I do."

This should be emphasized more. I was dating a guy who claimed to be a
critical thinker, which actually was worse than what you described here.
Essentially, his definition of critical thinking was "agreeing with me." This
--among ample other reasons--is why he is an ex.

But later in life I realised it wasn't just him, a lot of other
"intellectuals"[0], are like that.

[0]: I've grown to snort and snicker when I hear the word lately. I believe
anyone who calls himself (or someone else, because they've given themselves
the authority to decide who is and who isn't) an intellectual, is a pompous
little shit.

~~~
omegaham
I do agree that anyone who calls himself an intellectual is probably a pompous
idiot, but I'm mixed regarding calling other people intellectuals.

The definition of "intellectual," as I see it, seems to be "Someone who
studies society and proposes solutions for its problems." In and of itself, I
think that this is a completely neutral concept, and I can name plenty of
people who occupy that position. The issue is that intelligence (which is
required to be an intellectual) is an _intrinsically desirable trait_ ,
meaning that someone who is smart (even if they are nothing else) is often
seen as more desirable or worth more than a less smart individual. More
importantly, having this position implies leadership. If you're going to
propose solutions, you're not very good at your job if no one is actually
listening to you. And since we value leaders over followers, it follows that
intellectuals are considered more valuable.

This means that calling someone an intellectual doesn't just define them as
"someone who studies society and proposes solutions for its problems" \- it
defines them as someone who has _insight_ regarding society and proposes
_worthwhile_ solutions for its problems.

This makes things weird. I can still call a shitty artist an artist. I can
still call a shitty programmer a programmer. But when I call someone an
intellectual, it's making a _positive judgment_ regarding his ideas. After
all, a shitty intellectual is just a guy with stupid ideas. And who am I,
Omegaham, a random electron microscope technician from Oregon, to say that
Noam Chomsky or Thomas Sowell has worthwhile ideas? I mean, I have opinions,
but saying so definitively is way above my pay grade.

As a result, the term is so screwed up by connotation that I tend to use
"intellectual" exactly the same as you - sarcastically. For me, an
"intellectual" is "someone who would call himself an intellectual," with all
of the misguided arrogance that doing so implies.

------
steven2012
> Why do you think so many people are hesitant to learn to code, when it is
> such an incredible opportunity?

For the same reason people don't learn other skills. Accountants, when they
hit partner, hit mid-6 figures in their 40s, but unless you enjoy finance and
accounting, it's boring as hell.

People on HN might be shocked to find that most of the world finds programming
extremely boring. My wife is extremely smart, smarter than me, but she
couldn't last a year as a programmer simply because she finds it boring.

In college, I was at the cusp of applying to med school, and just before I
stopped myself, because I didn't want the life of a doctor. It represented an
incredible opportunity, but it just wasn't for me. Instead, I loved to code
and am still doing it 20 years later. It's the passion and interest that
matter, not the opportunity.

------
RKoutnik
> I wouldn't advise people to try to start startups before about 23. Before
> that you should be exploring.

Man, I wish he had written this five years ago. I focused far too early and
had to spend a lot of time correcting that course. Finally in the thick of
exploring and loving it. Yes, there's hints in other essays about this but the
hard age limit says that in a way the others don't. I was a incredibly dumb
smart student.

~~~
tempestn
I agree that this is really important. I love seeing how popular
entrepreneurship as an option is becoming, but it does seem one effect is that
one effect is that young people are trying to start businesses before they
really know anything about... anything. I'd like to think that I'm still young
enough that this is coming more from memory of where I was at in my late teens
and early twenties, rather than some kind of indictment of "kids today". It's
just so valuable to get some experience before you go trying to start a
company. For one thing, I imagine it would be much more difficult to manage
people if you had never had any experience from the other side. (A varied set
of experience would be ideal.) That's just one example of many though.

So, if you think you want to start a company, that's great! Keep that goal in
mind and work toward it. The first step would be to learn and experience as
much as you can.

------
vskarine
"An entrepreneur is someone who starts their own business. But only a tiny
fraction of new businesses are startups."

This needs a context:
[http://www.paulgraham.com/growth.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/growth.html)

Because Paul Graham (and probably Silicon Valley in large) clearly has
different definition for a term 'startup' than the rest of the world.
([http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/start-up](http://www.merriam-
webster.com/dictionary/start-up))

~~~
narrowrail
>I am really interested for Paul Graham and others to define term 'startup'.

Here you go:
[http://www.paulgraham.com/growth.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/growth.html)

~~~
vskarine
thanks, I found that right before you posted reply and already changed my
comment before seeing yours :)

------
visakanv
> Based on my experiences, the best way to teach kids is to show them the
> hidden interestingness in the things you want them to learn.

This is consistent with the ideas behind BetterExplained [1] and Crash Course
[2], both excellent learning resources that are really compelling.

"Learning is about a permanent shift in viewpoint, an Aha! moment, not
memorizing facts that are quickly forgotten."

\---

[1] [http://www.betterexplained.com/](http://www.betterexplained.com/)

[2] [http://www.youtube.com/crashcourse/](http://www.youtube.com/crashcourse/)

------
SRasch
"The combination of forces that produced the default curriculum was so random"

This seems true and sad. What would be a first principles approach to "What
should every kid learn" if we were to start from scratch you think?

~~~
dominotw
> "What should every kid learn" if we were to start from scratch you think?

Depends on socio economic class I would imagine. If you belong to middle class
in India for example, you would want you kids to buy into 'the cult of
achievement' where achievement is defined by how many people you can prove
that you are better than. Because this is only one of the few methods
available to Indian middle class to ensure that her child is not going to live
a life of destitution. You probably won't care if your child is 'thinking
critically'.

But I guess it is an interesting question as to what school would mean if you
belong to upper class in America where you are free from social morality and
hierarchies. I would imagine you want you child to learn how to be passionate
about things so they can escape a life of constant boredom.

~~~
rhizome
Is it fair to say that there isn't (or may not be) a such thing as first
principles at all, outside of acculturation, if education is so context
dependent?

~~~
vlehto
Kids need to learn to read. Society works sooo much better when you can assume
every adult can read.

Give man a fish vs. teach to fish..

~~~
superuser2
This _was_ true when print was orders of magnitude cheaper to distribute than
audio or video. Of course text still has distinct advantages, particularly for
further education (a lot easier to skim and pull the factoid you need out of a
textbook than 80 hours of video), but "society" shouldn't be affected nearly
as much as it used to be.

~~~
vlehto
...and here I type you an answer. I can't really use video yet.

Larger percentage of humans are literate than ever before. Larger body of
knowledge is in written form than ever before. I think we are going to rely
more on text in the future, not less. Even with video content, you search, tag
and label them with text. That is not going away.

------
arbabu
\------ Most people are not suited to it. I'd be surprised if more than 1% of
people are. And even for those few, it's a mistake to start too young. If a
startup succeeds, it takes over your life in a way that cuts off lots of other
opportunities. It's a mistake to do that sort of pruning before you understand
what you're losing by it.

I wouldn't advise people to try to start startups before about 23. Before that
you should be exploring. \------

~~~
GuiA
> "it's a mistake to start too young"

> "don't start before 23"

Oh Silicon Valley. I've been in tech in the Bay Area for about 5 years now,
regularly attending various events and being a part of the community, and most
startup founders under 30-35 are ridiculously naive and boring, with very
little to show over time. People over 30 with a decade or so of industry and
work experience tend to be much more realistic and methodical about what
they're doing (I'm 25).

PG is very successful and has some interesting things to say, but it's
important to keep in mind that taking advice from someone whose vision of
startups in the last 10 years came exclusively from manning YCombinator is
going to be deeply biased.

~~~
arbabu
I'm kinda confused. It looked like you are also confirming PG's observation
but you ended with a skeptical tone.

Anyway this was interesting to me because most people tend to overly support
youngster's into entrepreneurship but this looked more realistic and
practical.

~~~
austenallred
> It looked like you are also confirming PG's observation but you ended with a
> skeptical tone.

Both of these things are necessary on HN if you want to maximize the number of
upvotes.

~~~
arbabu
I'm also excited about my first comment with 4 upvotes :P

------
kercker
"I think all kids should learn how to program at some point. I'm not sure
what's the right age." I do not think all kids should learn how to program. I
think programming is just one of many skills that one can master, not a must-
have skill.

~~~
gaius
I say this every time "learn to code" comes up, kids should learn to cook.
People who can cook a meal from basic ingredients are healthier (than they
would have been living on ready meals and takeaways), wealthier because it's
cheaper, more relaxed because they have a hobby and more attractive to
whatever is the gender of their preference.

Humans have been cooking for thousands and thousands of years, but modern
schools have no idea how to teach it, hence the epidemics of obesity,
diabetes, etc. So how on Earth can they teach anyone to "code" and should that
_reallly_ be priority?

Silicon Valley VCs want everyone to learn to code because it'll be cheap grist
for their mill...

~~~
aianus
You can code for $60/h and pay $5-$10 of that to someone else to cook a meal
for you and clean up too. Why on earth would you want to be the latter guy?

~~~
Scea91
If everyone can code you won't code for $60/h

~~~
aianus
If everyone can code we will automate the economy to such an extent that goods
and services will be practically free.

------
SixSigma
> Sometimes to the extent of redefining the playing field so that the obstacle
> is no longer in the way.

And sometimes, as Marcus Aurelius said : The impediment to action advances
action. What stands in the way becomes the way.

------
graycat
Maybe I'd like to say that this is bad, that's awful, a long list of these
other things have been left out, and generally call BS.

Nope. This time PG wins, and I'd lose.

Very nicely done. Succinct. Nice. Elegant. Top stuff.

Sure, wish I'd read that in middle school.

Only one point left: Where can I apply to go back to, say, the sixth grade and
have a do-over?

------
marincounty
"What makes a good entrepereneur? Are these the type of people you accept into
the program?"

The entrepreneurs around me are numerious. My neighbor's are very rich. I grew
up with wealthy kids. Many are entrepreneurs. They all(95%), or more gave one
trait in common, and it's never mentioned in these Q & A's, but we are all in
the big world now. That trait; They have a sympathetic/understanding/wealthy
parent.

The wealthy parent(usually the father) bankrolls the Entrepreneur.

See, poor, middle class kids usually get one chance at a risky entrepreneurial
endeavor. If they do get funding, it's usually high rate credit cards. If they
fail, they don't get a do over card, and it's Hello UPS, or some other barely
livable job where you need to commute 1.5 hours.

For some reason this is never talked about, and probally for good reason. Yes,
there are exceptions. Yes, guys like PG have tried to reverse the formula, but
I have seen this combination work so many times, I feel comfortable calling it
a law. It makes as much sense as Moores law, in my eyes. Rich dad helps(money,
legal, generation of networking, sometimes the idea, the garage,
encouragement, family CPA.) out kid=Kid becomes Entrepreneur. If you born into
the right family--it's great. To the poor, middle class kids, do well in
school. Get a credential in something. Don't fall for this BS about hard work,
and a good idea. Give a rich boy a shot at funding your endeavor, but realize
you will have to work a lot harder than the rich kid. Don't bust a gasket in
the process. Most of the Entrepreneurs leave what I'm telling you out of their
orations. It's embarrassing most weren't Horatio Algiers? Most of their wives,
wives usually out of their league, don't even know the real story. I've only
heard one Entrepreneur tell the absolute truth, and that was George Sorors.
But George's first love is writing, and you can't be in denial if you want to
be a good writer/journalist.

(Didn't edit, so please lay off my typos. I don't usually even come back to a
post, so the nit picking goes unheard. I sometimes fear writing a post like
this, because they can track an ip. And even if speaking honesly, we all need
to play the game--smile, and act like the free money wasen't there. I really
wish Google didn't index every word forever. Hopefully, one day, we will have
the ability to pick, and choose what is on Google servers. At least, what we
wrote?)

~~~
omegaham
This is a really good point, and it's not just because of the bankrolling that
the parents do. They also set a good example for financial management,
discipline, respect for education, and perspective toward business.

My parents are upper-middle-class. They're not rich, but they're wealthy
enough that they know what to do with money. If I were thinking about starting
a business, I could easily bounce ideas off my dad and get genuinely good
advice. And if he couldn't give me the advice I needed, he knows people who
would be able to do so.

In contrast, someone who grows up poor is working in a vacuum. Whom are you
going to ask, your deadbeat dad? His shithead friends? Your mom, who's working
two minimum-wage jobs just to put food on the table and keep the lights on?
They work their asses off, but they have no idea how to build a business.

As a result, it's no surprise that the wealthy tend to come from the middle
class. The rich might fall from grace into the middle class, and the middle
class will often make a whole bunch of money and become rich, but the poor
tend to stay where they are.

------
hkmurakami
"But if you teach them arithmetic as a series of secret tricks—for example,
that you can add 6 million and 3 million by adding 6 and 3 and then sticking
the million back on at the end—it becomes like a game."

Looking back, this was what separated the subjects I loved and was great at,
and the subjects where I struggled. In the former group, at an early age I saw
learning as a game where I could improve continously.

------
evanmarks
I was surprised that the presence and importance of teaching the arts in
school wasn't mentioned given Paul's background. Aside from the inherent
benefit of learning art for art's sake, it requires self-discipline and
relentless self critique. No artist thinks they will just be "ok", they want
to be the best. I think this type of self-driven pursuit would benefit any
young person on their path towards a startup.

------
CM30
Probably a silly question, but what is the book that the high school freshman
is writing? Just curious what exactly it is.

But it's a decent interview regardless.

------
x0ner
> "And even for those few, it's a mistake to start too young. If a startup
> succeeds, it takes over your life in a way that cuts off lots of other
> opportunities."

Curious for more of an explanation here. I am 27. When is too young? As
someone who sold their company, I can attest that it takes over your life, but
the amount of things I have learned is insane and I wouldn't trade that.

------
KristofferJGalt
PG, thanks for doing and sharing this. I like your advice on exploring 'hidden
interestingness', this may work for teens and adults too.

------
roel_v
Sorry for being a grumpy grandpa, but I think the first thing we need to learn
young people is that 'coding' is not 'programming' (cue discussion on
linguistic descriptivism vs prescriptivism in which I'd normally be in the
former camp and defend the use of "y'all"...)

