
“Study Death Always”: Seneca’s advice for living centered on dying - diodorus
https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/roundtable/study-death-always
======
AlexB138
I wrote this in response to someone asking about other Stoic writings who, in
the interim, deleted their response, so I'll post it as a stand-alone
response:

I'm an avid reader of Stoic philosophy, to the point I would say it's a
central pillar of my life. I would strongly advocate anyone interested in
Stoicism not read these recent texts first, or, if I'm honest, really at all.
I get that they're trying to making it approachable, but I feel that in an
attempt to modernize the message they really lose most of it. One of the
beautiful things about Stoicism is that the ancient philosophers were very
mindful of speaking plainly, and their texts are extremely approachable.
Epictetus' Enchiridion is very easy to parse and is packed full of very
practical knowledge. It is one hundred percent the place to start. Following
that, read Seneca's letters to Lucilius, which are titled either Moral Letters
to Lucilius or Letters from a Stoic. These are very straight forward teachings
in very direct language.

Beyond that there's a whole canon of writing. The only extant writing from
Stoic philosophers are from Epictetus and Seneca. There are fragments from
Musonius Rufus, and a small handful from the very ancients like Chrysippus and
Zeno. There are writings about Stoicism by Marcus Aurelius, a very famous
follower but not a teacher himself, and by Cicero, though he also wrote
against the philosophy in other places. Marcus Aurelius' writings are very
approachable and often recommended.

There are a few modern academic writings I would suggest to someone who has
read the ancient sources, specifically the papers by A.A. Long. If you
absolutely must have a modern book about the school, I'll contradict my
earlier statement and say that William B. Irvine's A Guide to the Good Life is
one exception.

I love Stoicism and am happy to talk about it at length. Anyone who is
interested can feel free to contact me about it, my email is in my profile.

Ad fontes!

~~~
pagade
[https://enchiridion.tasuki.org](https://enchiridion.tasuki.org)

Which translation would you recommend?

~~~
tasuki
Hey I made that! Never would've thought it'd be shared here. Makes me very
happy :)

------
bkohlmann
I've recently started participating in Funeral Honors Details as a Navy
Reservist.

We fold the flag, present it to the next of kin, play taps, and provide an
honorable exit for anybody who has served.

It's been the most meaningful part of my 14 years of military service - which
included a combat deployment.

Simply walking through the cemetery before the service is profound. All that
remains of a life time of stories is usually just a name and a date. It's
humbling to reflect that within 100 years (at the very very most), I too will
be there...and some random stranger may come across my grave.

Death makes life all the more meaningful for me. Engaging with mourning
families at least monthly helps me cherish my moments doing the things I love
all the more.

~~~
mutagen
Thank you for this service.

My friend's step-father recently passed away. He was a Vietnam era veteran and
didn't leave this world with much planning for his passing. The service
provided by the volunteers was of huge comfort to my friend and his family,
the simple yet meaningful service lent dignity to the end of a situation that
didn't have much of it.

------
beefinethan
I've been an avid reader of Stoicism, and was introduced to it by, you guessed
it, Tim Ferriss. I have been conciously trying to adopt the philosophies and
mantras into my day to day life.

Have compiled the following tangible techniques/approaches to thought feel
free to add your own:

* Premeditatio Malorum (premeditation of evils or Negative Visualization) * Stoic Fork - Make the best use of things in your control and let nature handle the rest * Temporary Ownership - Never think of things you own as yours, merely borrowing from the universe (recycle) * Superficial Experimentation - Put yourself through situations that warrant ridicule in order to become resistant to it * Worse Case Scenario Simulation - Set aside a certain number of days to eat the cheapest food and cheapest clothing asking yourself: is this the condition I so feared? Make yourself uncomfortable * Only be ashamed of things worth being ashamed of; inoculate against superficial attachment in what others think * Planned Fasting * Planned Cold * Planned Poverty * Planned Ugly Clothing * Context Shifting - Cosmic relativism; remember you’re going to die and the world will keep turning * Growth mindset - praise yourself for the work not the result; challenge creates growth * Remove Distractions - am I afraid of death because I won’t be able to do THIS anymore ? If it’s no, then Remove the conveniences. * Opinions to actions - opinions are fine to have and express if they are followed by action but you shouldn’t have an opinion to have an opinion * Default to action - action before talking; so what needs to be done instead of “I should” * Daily quote meditation - take a stoic quote and reflect on how to apply it to your life everyday * Stoic Mindfulness - be in the moment; be attentive to what’s happening * Daily reflection journal - what did I do right ? What did I do wrong? What could I have done better? * Art of Aquiescence

~~~
IAmGraydon
I'm genuinely curious - what is this mindset supposed to accomplish?

~~~
anvandare
All life is suffering, but mercifully it ends with death.

However, we don't want to die (because we are so attached to life, it's hard
to overrule billions of years of evolution).

So we have to endure the suffering until we die on our own, or until the
suffering becomes great enough to overcome the mental barrier of suicide.

Just as we can train our bodies through exercise to deal with exertion, so too
can we train our minds through philosophy to deal with suffering. It makes
life easier to live.

~~~
Yhippa
> or until the suffering becomes great enough to overcome the mental barrier
> of suicide.

Does Stoicism rationalize suicide?

~~~
anvandare
Epictetus words it thusly (Discourses, book I, chapter 24):

>But remember the principal thing, -that the door is open. Do not be more
fearful than children; but as they, when the play dues not please them, say, "
I will play no longer," so do you, in the same case, say, "I will play no
longer," and go; but, if you stay, do not complain. [p. 1081]

A detailed analysis can be found here:
[https://people.creighton.edu/~wos87278/Stephens/Ancient-
Phil...](https://people.creighton.edu/~wos87278/Stephens/Ancient-
Phil_2014_365-391.pdf)

Aurelius as such (Meditations, book V):

>As thou intendest to live when thou art gone out,...so it is in thy power to
live here. But if men do not permit thee, then get away out of life, yet so as
if thou wert suffering no harm. The house is smoky, and I quit it. Why dost
thou think that this is any trouble? But so long as nothing of the kind drives
me out, I remain, am free, and no man shall hinder me from doing what I
choose; and I choose to do what is according to the nature of the rational and
social animal.

(and in book X):

>For to continue to be such as thou hast hitherto been, and to be tom in
pieces and defiled in such a life, is the character of a very stupid man and
one overfond of his life, and like those half-devoured fighters with wild
beasts, who though covered with wounds and gore, still intreat to be kept to
the following day, though they will be exposed in the same state to the same
claws and bites. Therefore fix thyself in the possession of [virtues]: and if
thou art able to abide in them, abide as if thou wast removed to certain
islands of the Happy. But if thou shalt perceive that thou fallest out of them
and dost not maintain thy hold, go courageously into some nook where thou
shalt maintain them, or even depart at once from life, not in passion, but
with simplicity and freedom and modesty, after doing this one laudable thing
at least in thy life, to have gone out of it thus.

In short: leaving life on one's own terms is fine, provided they are
rationally considered (so not on the spur of a moment).

------
acabal
The project I run, Standard Ebooks, has all of Seneca's dialogs available for
free for your ereader:
[https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/seneca/dialogues/aubrey-
st...](https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/seneca/dialogues/aubrey-stewart)

If you're interested in Stoic philosophy, Marcus Aurelius is also an excellent
read: [https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/marcus-
aurelius/meditation...](https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/marcus-
aurelius/meditations/george-long)

Stewart's Seneca translation is admittedly not a super great one, but it does
the job. Long's Marcus Aurelius translation is very solid though.

~~~
philwelch
While I like Marcus Aurelius, I find Gregory Hays' translation more readable
than Long's.

------
killjoywashere
I think the specialization of our society has really cost us in terms of
becoming acquainted with death. My career path (military, medicine, pathology)
has brought me in closer contact with death than most. And I'm a huge fan of
Stoicism. Have read everything from Epictetus, Seneca, Aurelius. The act of
witnessing death, the event itself, has had a profound centering effect. Be
careful with the arrow of causality here.

Thinking about death is probably not that healthy of an idea. But exposing
yourself to death is probably quite valuable. Consider volunteering at a
hospital or nursing home, or even an animal shelter.

~~~
Tossrock
Your comment, and this piece reminded me a lot of one I read about the
perception of death in Bhutan[1]:

“Rich people in the West, they have not touched dead bodies, fresh wounds,
rotten things. This is a problem. This is the human condition. We have to be
ready for the moment we cease to exist.”

[1]:[http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20150408-bhutans-dark-
secret...](http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20150408-bhutans-dark-secret-to-
happiness)

------
fapjacks
The Stoics of ancient times had something profound to say about everything, it
seems. The reason for that, of course, is because what they actually describe
is a way of thinking, a way of life. As you can gather from the article, there
is also some religious context which is really fairly optional. Or at least
you could substitute your own religious beliefs in with all the talk about
God. But you can apply Stoic principles to really any situation you could
think of. No kidding, and as implausible as it sounds, I've thought of things
I read from Marcus Aurelius in the heat of combat, just having sort of popped
into my mind. Though I will say that I'd been through a really tough stretch
of life around that time, and had been reading some of the Stoics (among
others) as an escape. So it's just as likely chance as anything else that
brought that dude's writing to mind. Marcus Aurelius is kind of held up among
the other greats of Stoic philosophy, but Seneca is really IMO the best.
Epictetus is a close second. But Marcus Aurelius is popular because of course
he was the Emperor, and never intended on publishing his diaries (which we
today call "Meditations"). You want a rabbit hole that will save your life,
perhaps not only figuratively? Here it is!

~~~
_mhr_
If you don't mind me asking: which Aurelius idea(s) specifically popped into
your head, and how did it save you?

~~~
fapjacks
Hmm. I suppose I should clarify that these ideas did not save me in combat,
and probably would not save anyone in combat. There isn't a philosophy in this
universe that would save you from " _Whoops_! Should have juked right when I
juked left!"... But from other things that can kill you, Stoic philosophy will
set you up for survival.

About the question, though, I thought about what he said about telling friends
and family you're always busy. It was just something that came to mind, making
me wish I'd spent more of my time with people I enjoy being around.

------
pmoriarty
I strongly recommend Seneca's _On the Shortness of Life_. It's one of the best
books I've read, and at the very top on the subject of Carpe Diem.

[https://www.amazon.com/Shortness-Life-Penguin-Great-
Ideas/dp...](https://www.amazon.com/Shortness-Life-Penguin-Great-
Ideas/dp/0143036327/)

~~~
merpnderp
I just read it a few weeks back and was disappointed. His views on life seemed
to boil down to something like "make as much wealth as possible, so you can
retire as fast as you possibly can, so you can spend all of your time on
whatever is meaningful in your life, and by no means ever have any fun." It
seemed full of selfish anti-social advice for the extreme curmudgeon. But I
also listened to it while on the road, so maybe I missed something.

~~~
pmoriarty
This is a short book, but it's full of ideas and already very concentrated as
it is. So if you really think you can boil it down to a single sentence, I
think you are in fact missing quite a lot.

I'm not going to go through the entire book point by point, but here are some
salient points your summary misses:

One of the main points of the book is that when most people complain that life
is short and they don't have much time they are mistaken. They are mistaken
for various reasons, one of the main ones being that they waste their time.

Seneca would not agree with you that merely spending time "on whatever is
meaningful in your life" would necessarily be a good use of your life. He goes
on at length to decry the many things that even exceedingly rich people occupy
their lives with that he thinks are a waste of time (such as vanity; chasing
fame, wealth, or favor; being busy-bodies; concerning themselves with trivia,
etc), and then talks about the things he thinks would be a good use of one's
time -- the best according to him being (Stoic) philosophy.

He emphasizes that one should live for today, rather than for the future. _"
The greatest hinderance to living is expectancy, which depends upon the morrow
and wastes today."_ _" Everyone hurries his life on and suffers from a
yearning for the future and a weariness of the present. But he who bestows all
of his time on his own needs, who plans out every day as if it were his last,
neither longs for nor fears the morrow."_

So chasing wealth in order to at some future time have the leisure to enjoy it
would be antithetical to Seneca, and is in fact one of the things he
explicitly argues against:

 _" You will hear many men saying: “After my fiftieth year I shall retire into
leisure, my sixtieth year shall release me from public duties.” And what
guarantee, pray, have you that your life will last longer? Who will suffer
your course to be just as you plan it? Are you not ashamed to reserve for
yourself only the remnant of life, and to set apart for wisdom only that time
which cannot be devoted to any business? How late it is to begin to live just
when we must cease to live! What foolish forgetfulness of mortality to
postpone wholesome plans to the fiftieth and sixtieth year, and to intend to
begin life at a point to which few have attained!"_

He's not encouraging the reader to chase after any get-rich-quick schemes
either. The man upon whom fortune smiles today could be crushed under its foot
tomorrow. Self-mastery and tranquility of mind is what he's after, as only
then can one be indifferent to fortune's whims.

There's much more as well. This book is just so chock full of wisdom, I can
not praise it highly enough. I really recommend you sit down one day, read
through it slowly, and carefully think through each of the things he says.

~~~
merpnderp
That brought back a few memories of the book. I remember being extremely
turned off when he listed all the things a person shouldn't do for a living
and wondering if this book was only targeted at those who were born
independently wealthy.

------
damontal
Aurelius said that all you have is the present moment so when you die the only
thing you can lose is the present moment. That one really stuck with me.

~~~
spraak
But you don't lose the moment... you go into a new body. (Anticipating down
votes for this, though)

~~~
gboudrias
You anticipated correctly yet you don't seem to realize why. Where can we
possibly take this conversation now except into a religious flame war? If you
had approached it from a philosophical perspective, we could actually have a
fruitful (or at least interesting) exchange of words. As it stands you dove
straight into belief territory, which obviously cannot be debated
productively.

(I don't mean to be a jerk but I do mean to criticize your apparent lack of
self-awareness.)

~~~
spraak
Yeah, that makes sense. But I don't understand what you mean about lack of
self awareness? (Perhaps validating your point)

~~~
gboudrias
I'm a (sort-of) Buddhist myself but I don't presume to know anything for
certain, especially not how it should affect the way we see our lives. It just
seems arrogant to me to present such things as facts, without so much as an
argument. Sorry, shoulda been clearer in my initial reply.

------
happy-go-lucky
Here's an interesting read:

Parallels in Hindu and Stoic Ethical Thought

[http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/public/articles/...](http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/public/articles/parallels_in_hindu_and_stoic_ethical_thought.aspx)

> Krishna reminded Arjuna that "Thinking about sense objects will attach you
> to sense objects. Grow attached and you become addicted. Thwart your
> addiction, it turns to anger. Be angry and you confuse your mind. Confuse
> your mind, you forget the lesson of experience. Forget experience, you lose
> discrimination. Lose discrimination, and you miss life's only purpose".

~~~
Jerry64545
This is a comparison b/w oranges and pigs. Hinduism is founded by priests to
favor Brahmin's and nothing more. Instead of the slavery like in US which is
binary(slave or not-slave) in hinduism the caste system is a multiple levels
of slavery. Any caste must be a slave to another and if they obey(no choice)
they will get another caste as their slaves. Finally at the root node is this
Dailt people who are slave to every one in the hierarchy. In contrast Stoic is
religion agonistic, in fact Stoicism does not care of religion. Seneca talks
about how it does not matter if there is a god exists or not in his reference
to free will and determinism in his letters.

------
fizixer
If you agree with this, it makes it a lot easier to realize what the current
purpose of human life is, i.e., to achieve biological longevity. (By 'current'
I mean until we achieve this, it's not of much use to ponder the bigger
question of why we're truly here).

This mindset can be used as an alternative to existentialism in which you
realize life has no purpose, and that is followed by 'you make your own
purpose'. It helps eliminate some of the post-modernistic relativism and
introduces some level of objectivity into this big question.

~~~
enkid
Seneca would not agree. He thought how you lived was much more important than
how long you lived. The stoa did not view death as a bad thing, rather as a
change in state.

------
jrochkind1
I haven't read the article, but the general point is also a teaching in some
kinds of Buddhist philosophy.

(Googling, others who know more about both have made this connection too:
[https://dailystoic.com/stoicism-buddhism/](https://dailystoic.com/stoicism-
buddhism/) For that matter, from that article: "[stoicism stresses] being in
accordance with nature and accepting all of the things that happen in life"
reminds me that the word "Islam" means "submission" in this sense too --
accepting what God gives you, i.e. what the 'universe' gives you. I guess
there's probably some fundamental similarities at the root of most
spirituality)

------
akira2501
So, the western version of Maranasati?

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mara%E1%B9%87asati](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mara%E1%B9%87asati)

------
wittedhaddock
for editor: I remember reading that Seneca died not by suicide, but by first
slitting his wrists -- and not dying -- before he then went to the bath and
died by chocking on the steam, is his death reason controversial?

~~~
pmoriarty
It's more his life rather than his death that's controversial. During his life
he chose to serve Nero, one of Rome's bloodiest tyrants, and profited greatly
from his service. To some that has seemed rather hypocritical for someone who
preached a life of self-denial, detachment from worldly things, and distance
from rulers and politics.

In Seneca's defense, some have pointed out that he tried to moderate Nero and
steer him towards the path of virtue, though he ultimately failed.

------
tw1010
For some reason HN has been mimetically pulled into the seneca philosophy.
Just so you guys know, there are many many _many_ other philosophies and
really great books about ways to look at life and how to live it than just
stoicism. Don't let something as important as a life philosophy be steered by
social media influencer culture. Take some time to read from sources outside
your filter bubble. Your 70 year old self will thank you for it.

~~~
netc
Can you suggest few readings?

~~~
HiroshiSan
The Bible

edit: For those of you down voting me for whatever reason, can you at least
contribute to the discussion and explain how my answer was a poor one?

The bible is one of the greatest stories ever told containing a myriad of
different ways at looking at life.

~~~
waynecochran
A particularly important read concerning the meaning of life is the book of
Ecclesiastes. It tells of Solomon’s great experiment of finding meaning in
knowledge, pleasure, wealth, accomplishment, etc..

I am often bewildered by those who pour a great deal of energy in planning for
retirement and ignoring the fact that they will soon thereafter be pushing up
daisies. Death awaits us all.

~~~
replicatorblog
I pour a lot into retirement because I don't want my final days to be a time
of financial hardship or to be a burden on my children.

Today, I can easily move around, feed/wash myself, and but that won't be true
forever. Putting money away for later gives me some measure of confidence I'll
be able to pay someone to help me when the time comes.

~~~
freeloop3
Why not kill yourself when you get too old to wash/feed yourself? I'm being
serious. I've asked myself that many times and can't find a good reason why
not.

~~~
maroonblazer
It's not even about washing/feeding yourself. I simply don't want to have to
work all my life. I'd like to spend my days reading, watching movies,
traveling, eating out, etc.

To your question though, I find that as I get older life is increasingly more
interesting. I suspect that will be the case regardless of whether I'm hobbled
by my body.

Also, if I have grandchildren I can imagine wanting to hang around to see them
grow up.

------
hawktheslayer
Sam Harris recently had a podcast on the topic for those who are interested:

[https://samharris.org/podcasts/the-lessons-of-
death/](https://samharris.org/podcasts/the-lessons-of-death/)

