
German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany - rwmj
https://fascinatingmaps.com/strange-german-exclaves-in-belgium-vennbahn/
======
dividuum
Odd borders are funny. Here's two other examples: The utter chaos in Baarle.
They even have nested enclaves. So area of Netherlands surrounded by Belgium
surrounded by Netherlands.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baarle-
Nassau](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baarle-Nassau)

[https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/51.4402/4.9316](https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/51.4402/4.9316)

Between Germany and Switzerland, there's the German exclave Büsingen am
Hochrhein. They have odd tax rules as Swiss VAT is applied.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%BCsingen_am_Hochrhein](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%BCsingen_am_Hochrhein)

[https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/47.6941/8.6910](https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/47.6941/8.6910)

~~~
gammateam
The german entry for Büsingen is MUCH more detailed

[https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Büsingen_am_Hochrhein](https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Büsingen_am_Hochrhein)

This really frustrates me about Wikipedia because its like a totally parallel
site and experience thats just right there and can even have conflicting
information. Not helping the world as much as we think, but its so close to
being able to.

~~~
galago
Can't we just all agree to speak English? No, I don't think that would be a
good idea. Perhaps they could write a (albeit imperfect) tool to alert readers
when another language has a much larger or more comprehensive article. I'm
sure the Wikipedians have considered the fact that some information is better
presented in a particular language. For example, an article about Shakespeare
will be more precise in English than Chinese. However, I think it would be
another kind of loss if the Shakespeare article was just in English and we
forced people to use automated translators. Some might argue that this applies
to all scholarship, not just Wikipedia.

~~~
seszett
As far as I remember (I can't check now) articles in foreign Wikipedias that
have a "silver" or "gold" status are shown with a star in the list.

It might not be obvious to English speaking visitors as I suppose they don't
pay much attention to the list, but visitors who speak multiple languages
often switch between them to get the most information.

~~~
baud147258
> As far as I remember (I can't check now) articles in foreign Wikipedias that
> have a "silver" or "gold" status are shown with a star in the list.

That's the case, at least when not on the mobile site; apparently the mobile
site instead show the "best" version at the top of the list of versions, but I
don't know how it is determined.

------
tormeh
My favorite is Lake Constance. Switzerland and Austria disagree on where
exactly the borders are, but both think Germany holds a part of it. Germany
has no stated position on the subject. It has to be the world's most relaxed
border dispute.

~~~
neonate
[https://www.businessinsider.com/canada-and-denmark-
whiskey-w...](https://www.businessinsider.com/canada-and-denmark-whiskey-war-
over-hans-island-2016-1) is another relaxed one.

------
Faaak
> There is no border control due to the Schengen Agreement, therefore daily
> life is not really impacted.

That's the most interesting part to me. I cross the border every day to go to
work. Yet, when a friend came to visit us and we we to the city, he couldn't
believe that we were crossing a border that easily (France-Switzerland). It
was literally an open fence with a sign welcoming you.

It's really awesome when you think about it

~~~
FigBug
This is what I was expecting when I drove between Switzerland-Italy in 2016.
Except I was stopped, told to park, had my passport examined with with a
loupe, and then was sent on my way. Are the borders back to normal now?

~~~
lucideer
A few countries have started to introduce this recently due to paranoia around
Syrian refugees. It's extremely controversial, as it basically nullifies
Schengen, but countries are apparently allowed by the agreement to put these
spot checks in place (provided some political procedures) up to 20 out of
every 60 days.

~~~
jamiegreen
Is it paranoia, or just a sensible way for states to implement some semblance
of control over their own border when a EU wide strategy seems out of reach?

~~~
jstanley
It is no more "sensible" for a state to be exercising control of its border
than it is for a town to be exercising control over its border. We're all free
people in the world, and we should be able to move around it freely. There
should be no borders at all.

~~~
HumanDrivenDev
Are you not then essentially arguing that states have no sovereignty? If so,
how far do you take it - do individuals? Can any migrant - legal or not - rock
up to your house and start camping on your lawn?

~~~
jstanley
In my world there would be no such thing as an "illegal" migrant.

And, the distinction would be between public places and private places.
Anybody is free to exist in any public place with no permission required (just
like you are already allowed to do once you're in the country).

It would all be exactly the same as it is now, except there are no checks at
the border, and no visa requirements.

~~~
HumanDrivenDev
Do you seriously think the quality of life wouldn't deteriorate rapidly if
this was the case? Or is that not your concern? Or would it not effect your
area, so you don't care?

I think it's utopian to believe that this would lead to anything but slums and
shanty towns. People with no wealth will all flock to areas with wealth, which
won't have the infrastructure to support them. They'd camp out wherever they
could with whatever they could - possibly right outside your house. Probably
in your back yard actually - local law enforcement would be too overwhelmed to
go around persecuting squatting or trespassing.

Travel to a large city in India to see what happens when free movement is
coupled with massive inequality.

~~~
jstanley
It's certainly not ethically sound to lock out people from poor countries just
because you don't want them to be poor nearby.

~~~
HumanDrivenDev
Under your model people would just end up building huge gated-communities
anyway - it would all be private property, so wouldn't violate any of your
laws.

People will find a way to keep people they don't want near by away from them.

------
IAmEveryone
Which reminds me of the rather young saying: “No fences make for excellent
neighbors.”

As to the bike path: that photo made my legs itch. Old train tracks are an
excellent resource for bike paths, at least for recreational riding. They are
flat, because trains are unable to climb anything more than 2% or so. Plus no
cars, perfect width, and (because they are established rather recently) often
perfectly smooth pavement.

I’ve done a thousand km or so in both Spain, and across the alps. It’s almost
as breathtaking as crossing the mountain passes, if you allow me to mix the
literal and figurative meaning of the word.

~~~
stevoski
Can you tell us what cycle paths in Spain are on former rail trails? I live in
Spain and would love to experience some of these.

~~~
mikhailfranco
[http://www.viasverdes.com/en/](http://www.viasverdes.com/en/)

[http://www.andalucia.com/rural/walking/viasverde.htm](http://www.andalucia.com/rural/walking/viasverde.htm)

I ran some of this _via verde_ a few years ago on a very hot and dusty day. I
finished at old Olvera station which has a bar serving very cold beer served
in a frozen glass - heaven. The white hill-town of Olvera itself is also worth
a visit:

[http://www.andalucia.com/rural/walking/viasverde-
olvera.htm](http://www.andalucia.com/rural/walking/viasverde-olvera.htm)

------
ilamont
There are some weird border situations up on US/Canada border, including:

* Library in Vermont and Quebec straddling the border: [https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/the-us-canada-border-r...](https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/the-us-canada-border-runs-through-this-tiny-library)

* Canadian train that crosses northern Maine and used to have U.S. border guards board it (can't find the resource, but I saw this on TV show some years ago)

* Thousand Islands border between Ontario and NY State, which can be easily swum in the summer and freezes over in the winter ([https://www.cbp.gov/frontline/frontline-april-thousand-islan...](https://www.cbp.gov/frontline/frontline-april-thousand-islands))

* Akwesasne Mohawk reservation further east that straddles the NY/Ontario/Quebec border but tribal members do not recognize ([https://www.npr.org/2017/10/28/560436303/at-u-s-canada-borde...](https://www.npr.org/2017/10/28/560436303/at-u-s-canada-border-reservation-mohawks-say-they-face-discrimination))

* Northwest Angle attached to Manitoba, but technically part of Minnesota: [https://www.minnpost.com/mnopedia/2014/02/story-behind-minne...](https://www.minnpost.com/mnopedia/2014/02/story-behind-minnesotas-weirdly-shaped-northern-border/)

~~~
flyinghamster
Add Hyder, Alaska, accessible by road only from Canada. It also gets its
telephone service and utilities from the Canadian side.

~~~
sethrin
Most places in SE Alaska are inaccessible by road. Skagway, Haines, and Hyder
are the three exceptions. The highways to these necessarily go through Canada,
but I'm not sure why that would make them remarkable?

------
stereo
I cycled the Vennbahn cycle path this summer. Sometimes, the only way you can
tell what country is on the side of the road is by the shape and colour of the
postboxes.

------
rad_gruchalski
I live in Monschau and drive past these every day. Driving from Monschau to
Roetgen takes you through a forest in Belgium. One crosses the border twice
within a couple of kilometers. The border is, indeed, at the bicycle path.

------
heipei
Similarly interesting and close to the path/border in the article is the
history of the neutral territory called "Neutral-Moresnet" which was
incorporated into Belgium in 1944:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutral_Moresnet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutral_Moresnet)

Another odd occurence I only learned about recently in the area around here
are the American Military Cemeteries in Belgium and the Netherlands which are
administered by the American Battle Monuments Commission (ABMC). Visiting one
feels like being on a patch of US soil in the middle of the Belgian
countryside (signs, road-markings, the way the gardens are kept, etc), quite
surreal: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri-
Chapelle_American_Cemete...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri-
Chapelle_American_Cemetery_and_Memorial)

------
throwaway15525
It's true that you can easily cross the border to Switzerland (which has
mostly to do with economic reason). If you think that you can cross the border
without being surveilled, then let me tell you that on many Swiss border
crossings there are licence plate readers. As a foreigner, it's almost
impossible to cross Switzerland without having your plates checked at least
once. I had once an introduction to the possibilities of the Swiss border
guards (and what they do) and I can tell you I was suprised to hear and almost
couldn't believe it. There are not just standing 2'000 border guards around to
say hi to you and wave you through.

------
orting
There is an interesting version of this with The Netherlands and Belgium The
Netherlands: [https://www.google.com/maps/place/Baarle-
Nassau,+Holland/@51...](https://www.google.com/maps/place/Baarle-
Nassau,+Holland/@51.4368308,4.8883959,13z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x47c609c3db87e4bb:0xb3a175ceffbd0a9f!2sHolland!3b1!8m2!3d52.132633!4d5.291266!3m4!1s0x47c6a5342570ab1d:0x808696d1e9939744!8m2!3d51.4451276!4d4.9295139)
Belgium: [https://www.google.com/maps/place/Baarle-
Hertog,+Belgien/@51...](https://www.google.com/maps/place/Baarle-
Hertog,+Belgien/@51.4241972,4.8545492,13z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x47c609c3db87e4bb:0xb3a175ceffbd0a9f!2sHolland!3b1!8m2!3d52.132633!4d5.291266!3m4!1s0x47c6a54331164f29:0x40099ab2f4d4d20!8m2!3d51.4418375!4d4.9317455)

------
albertzeyer
Some related discussions:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17790033](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17790033)
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12124210](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12124210)
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9988119](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9988119)

------
based2
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclave_and_exclave#True_encla...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclave_and_exclave#True_enclaves)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djibouti](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djibouti)

------
coliveira
This also happens in the border of Germany and Switzerland. A few places are
part of Germany but inside Swiss territory.

~~~
mtmail
Büsingen is one. People pay with Swiss Franc, houses have two postcodes, the
local soccer club plays in the Swiss league. "Vehicles with BÜS licence plates
are treated as Swiss vehicles for customs purposes."
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%BCsingen_am_Hochrhein#Pec...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%BCsingen_am_Hochrhein#Peculiarities_of_B%C3%BCsingen_am_Hochrhein)

------
zukzuk
Great book about these and other geographical oddities:
[https://www.amazon.com/Unruly-Places-Spaces-Inscrutable-
Geog...](https://www.amazon.com/Unruly-Places-Spaces-Inscrutable-
Geographies/dp/054410157X?pldnSite=1)

------
leroy_masochist
Coming soon to Netflix, from the team that brought you "The Tunnel"...."The
Bike Path".

------
pella
more:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_enclaves_and_exclaves](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_enclaves_and_exclaves)

------
k__
What are the reasons such things aren't resolved?

~~~
lagadu
What's there to resolve if it works perfectly fine as it is?

~~~
k__
Don't know, simpler borders are easier to maintain?

~~~
anvandare
As it happens, Belgium and the Netherlands recently changed (a small part of)
the border for exactly that reason:

[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/30/belgium-and-
th...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/30/belgium-and-the-
netherlands-exchange-land-because-it-makes-sense)

------
jwr
This is a good time to consider what a ridiculous concept "borders" are,
especially within the EU. What makes land and people on one side of an
arbitrary line so different from land and people on the other side of it?

Borders are necessary because of power-hungry politicians: without borders,
entire levels of governments would become unnecessary. This is why we hear so
much about "patriotism" these days.

~~~
badpun
> What makes land and people on one side of an arbitrary line so different
> from land and people on the other side of it?

Cultures? People on one both sides of the border generally have different
culture and hierarchies of values. Thanks to borders, every nation gets to
organize their piece of earth as they see fit (at least in democracies).

~~~
jwr
I don't think that applies anymore these days. I am from Poland and culturally
I have more in common with most Germans than with many of my compatriots.

And my point is that the idea of "their piece of earth" is outdated. Apart
from silliness and unnecessary politicians it leads to real problems, like
countries deciding that they will burn oil and coal on "their piece of earth"
and not care about climate catastrophe at all.

~~~
badpun
I am Polish too and I’d say were are on average very different from the
Germans. A common, Polish-German state would be very hard to govern to due
constant conflicts in values.

~~~
majewsky
A lot of Germans feel the same about the Bavarian-German state.

