
Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety - agronaut
http://www.npr.org/2017/06/09/532220824/canadas-tech-firms-capitalize-on-immigration-anxiety-in-the-age-of-trump
======
eigenvector
_" For years, Canada's tech industry has watched in frustration as Microsoft
and Google hired the country's top computer science grads for high-paying jobs
in Seattle and Silicon Valley. Now Canada believes it has found a new way to
lure American and international tech workers."_

Is it... paying more so people don't have to choose between their country and
financial security? Let's see.

 _" Canadian tech companies are eager to capitalize on anxiety among
international visitors and would-be immigrants following President Trump's
travel ban and other immigration policies."_

Nope. Just trying to capitalize on people's fear and anxiety to avoid matching
their competitors' pay.

~~~
didibus
I'd love it so much if Canada had comparable salaries. I'd move back for sure,
at least if it came 10% within Seattle and SV.

But, I'm not sure it's possible for companies to do so.

I mean, first of all, in the US, outside of a few cities like NY, SV, Seattle,
Bellevue, you start to see lower pay which gets closer to Canadian pay.

Appart from that, Canada just doesn't have the same market. That's the biggest
difference. Most startup capitalize on the US market, and that's just easier
and more accessible to do if you're US based.

In a way, Canada pays decently. You'll be very comfortable as an engineer in
Canada, even with a large family. But compared to certain US cities, it's
abysmal.

It's kind of crazy that in the US, a bachelor degree in CS can give you pay
close to what doctors make. And a 9 month dev boot camp can have you earn
similar to many university level degrees.

I'm not sure this will last forever. My point being, it's unclear if Canada's
pay for tech is too low, or if some US cities pay is too high.

~~~
Tiktaalik
> In a way, Canada pays decently. You'll be very comfortable as an engineer in
> Canada, even with a large family. But compared to certain US cities, it's
> abysmal.

Hmmm depends on where you live. In some places a large family would be quite
unaffordable. The average cost of a detached house in February in Metro
Vancouver was $1.76 million. Vancouver has become so unaffordable that even
those with great (for Canada) six figure salaries would find it very hard to
cobble together enough money to buy property.

~~~
AzzieElbab
Toronto is the same. In fact, worse because you need two cars per family

~~~
otoburb
From the transportation perspective, Toronto is probably marginally better
than Vancouver for families.

You're more likely to require two cars in Vancouver than in Toronto as the
combination of the Greater Toronto Area public transportation options cover a
wider area than Vancouver's.

~~~
AzzieElbab
That is simply not true. If you are in dt Vancouver you can get pretty much
anywhere walking. Not the case for Toronto(even downtown) due to city size and
climate

~~~
otoburb
I'm not sure why you're suddenly restricting your "two cars per family" point
to the city downtown cores alone.

But sure - if we change frames then both city downtown cores are either easily
walkable or extremely accessible via public transportation, hence ceteris
paribus neither family (living in the downtown core) in their respective
cities would require more cars than the other.

------
avaer
The reason engineer salaries in Canada are low, especially for startups, isn't
that companies are cheap. It's that there is no funding or support network for
growing companies -- nothing compared to the valley.

In my experience seed funding in Canada doesn't mean "this idea looks like
it's on a promising growth trajectory, here's 100K for a bit of equity to see
what we can make of it". Instead it means "show us $500K in revenue and we'll
consider you for a loan next year".

So what you have left are the smaller companies that happily feed their owner
and not much else, or enterprise shops delivering established solutions in an
established market for established rates (Canadian ones).

And the companies that do well and grow: they just move to the valley, because
they generally can, and they have every reason to.

Source: I've lived both worlds.

~~~
jonny_eh
I don't disagree with your points, but I'd like to point out Shopify as an
exception. Started in Ottawa, grew, got VC funding, grew some more, IPO'd on
NYSE, and is still headquartered in Ottawa.

~~~
nasalgoat
There's one or two of them, but they are hen's teeth.

My startup has a $10M run rate after three years and the best we can do is get
debenture and loan offers, no actual investment.

Investors in Canada hate technology.

~~~
jonny_eh
Get investors from the US then, that's what Shopify did.

------
ChemicalWarfare
Not sure how exactly they are planning on "luring American tech workers" when
they are paying much less on average, taxes are higher and real estate prices
in large cities where these jobs are typically at are pretty insane compared
to most of the US.

~~~
Pxtl
Toronto and Vancouver are Canada's big insane housing markets. There are
smaller tech communities in Ottawa, Waterloo, and Montreal, and those cities
have _normal_ housing markets.

~~~
pyre
PyCon Canada is coming to Montreal this year, and Montreal has the second
largest Python user group in the world (IIRC). So these communities aren't
necessarily short on tech.

------
drspacemonkey
While we could certainly pick up a few people, I can't see how it could
possibly be more than a few unless Canada's tech firms start paying more.

Source: developer in Vancouver who could easily get 2x the salary a 4 hour
train ride south. I stay in Canada because it's my home.

~~~
nasalgoat
For me, I don't qualify for a TN visa because I don't have a college degree. I
could probably walk in off the street to most places in SF with my 20+ years
of experience and triple my salary, but my visa eligibility leaves me here.

There's lots of people in similar situations, so it's not impossible to find
10x devs up here, just more difficult than SF.

~~~
drspacemonkey
It's not every degree that grants TN eligibility, either. Software engineering
degrees are eligible, CompSci are explicitly _not_ eligible.

So I'd be out, too.

Though I could likely find a Seattle-based company willing to let me work
remote most of the time. I could hop on the train once a month and AirBnB a
place for a week, and many employers would be satisfied with that. It's what
I'm considering next time I'm on the job hunt.

------
personjerry
I just can't believe tech companies in Canada don't realize/aren't willing to
just pay the price for top engineers. Like, how can they be such cheapskates?
One day I'll start a company in Waterloo and address this problem.

~~~
acchow
Which Canadian tech company makes money hand-over-fist like Google, Facebook
and Apple? The motivation to pay more for talent is to make more money... but
Canadian tech companies 1) Do not make all that much money (with exception of
Shopify) and 2) Don't believe that they will eventually make all that much
money after hiring more.

~~~
personjerry
>Don't believe that they will eventually make all that much money

That is a pattern I've noticed in Canada in contrast to the US in fact; We
settle for "good enough" or "profitable" but not the "moonshots" or strive to
be "the best".

Whether in tech, business, or even global influence, we are a "middle power"
and we seem happy about it (my high school politics teacher explains that this
is a result of constantly being the US's little brother). This makes me
immensely unhappy, and I hope to make Canada more ambitious one day.

~~~
frandroid
> We settle for "good enough"

The main problem is investment. You just don't have the investment capital in
Canada that you can get in the U.S. I'm not just talking tech, but throughout
the economy. Lots of successful Canadian SMEs get bought out by Americans
because there's no one here who has the balls to invest in them. In many
cases, their (head) offices are moved to the U.S., further reducing the
economic impact they had here and making the U.S. economy stronger. Canada is
a perpetual SME incubator feeding the U.S. economy.

~~~
linkregister
There are numerous counterexamples throughout the Canadian economy: banking,
oil & gas, mining, agriculture, etc.

Software investment is probably the only sector that is undercapitalized in
Canada.

~~~
jamiek88
Well you've basically stated those industries that are specifically and
geographically tied to Canada.

Of course commodities and the financial system to support them as well as
local consumer banking have that funding. All nations do.

It is the 'soft' economy outside of that where the differences lie.

~~~
linkregister
There are at least 50 nations that receive most of their financing from
foreign sources.

------
EternalData
For those people who are talking about salaries in Canada versus salaries in
the United States -- I don't have a dog to pick in the fight, but I think cost
of living is a really important consideration when you're looking to evaluate
compensation differences.

Some people have put together prices and it came out that Toronto is about 31%
cheaper to live in than SF. ([https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-
living/comparison/san-fra...](https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-
living/comparison/san-francisco/toronto)). That adds up.

~~~
guiomie
Salary are usually 1.5 to 3 time higher. You can save much more money.

~~~
kspaans
Until you have to put kids through school or have a big medial emergency that
isn't covered by your insurance.

~~~
refurb
There are _very good_ public colleges in the US. They don't need to go to
Harvard. Plus, if your kid in Canada wants to do medical school or dental
school, you'll still be shelling out tens of thousands of dollars per year.

As for medical care, most tech jobs have very good benefits. If you have a
major medical problem, you might be out $5K before you hit your out of pocket
max. The higher wages and lower taxes in the US mean you can easily handle it
(but you do have to plan for it).

~~~
jonny_eh
Exactly, living in California or Ontario, if you're kid wants to go to
Stanford or Harvard, it'll cost.

And you can't count on your kid getting into Waterloo, the only university
anyone in SV/SF have heard of, it's very competitive.

------
kareemm
Think Canadian salaries don't compete with US companies? Guess what happens
when supply increases?

Most other professionals (doctors, lawyers, accountants, etc) throttle supply
through things like certification, but for some reason developers can't /
don't want to get their act together to do the same.

Even worse, they (we) welcome more supply! The mind boggles. And I say this as
a Canadian employer who would certainly welcome more good developers at a
lower price...

~~~
Pxtl
Because software isn't a zero sum game. Having "too many developers" in a
community doesn't mean a glut of developers fighting for scraps, it means
Silicon Valley. It means you get bigger companies doing bigger things with
bigger success which means bigger quantities of cash whirling around up for
grabs.

Being the only plumber in town means you can charge whatever you want. Being
the only developer in town means you're telecommuting and competing with
Satyam.

~~~
ryandrake
> Having "too many developers" in a community doesn't mean a glut of
> developers fighting for scraps, it means Silicon Valley.

I think we might be talking about two different Silicon Valleys. The one here
in the real world has a glut of developers fighting for scraps. Companies that
have the luxury of being extremely picky and only hiring the best. Lots of
interviewing and so-called "open positions" but not a lot of hiring.

~~~
linkregister
I disagree; the nationwide median salary was $100,080; the bottom 10% earned
less than $58,300. [1]

The unemployment rate for Computer and Mathematical Occupations was about
2.0%. [2]

Anecdotally, since a large part of someone's world view is by bad things that
have happened to them, none of my friends from college are working outside of
software. Some earn at the 10% spot in low cost-of-living areas, but they all
are employed with enough money to get by.

1\. [https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-
technology/...](https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-
technology/software-developers.htm#tab-5)

2\.
[https://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cpseea30.htm](https://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cpseea30.htm)

Edit: this only holds true for the U.S.; unemployment for coders is probably
far different in other countries.

~~~
Bakary
>since a large part of someone's world view is by bad things that have
happened to them

I've never thought of it this way, but it seems so obvious in retrospect.

------
microcolonel
Yeah, the media here have been deliberately exaggerating immigration
uncertainty to draw attention.

In the land of facts, salaries are lower here, and taxes are higher. Liberties
are eroding, and the cost of living is skyrocketing.

On the whole, you can work just as hard here for a whole number fraction of
your salary, have less capital availability, and have less personal liberty.
The best deal for the brilliant people at the U of T here is to leave, if
we're talking about money and freedom. If we're talking about security, maybe
a slight improvement for some kinds of people, but not all.

------
sumitgt
One reason that is often over-looked is the green card backlog issue in the US
that affects tech workers from India/China.

I'd easily make the choice to move to Canada where I can get a green card
right away rather than wait 10 years for a green card in US. Salaries might be
low, but one cannot put a $ amount on peace of mind.

~~~
zodiac
Are you referring to Canadian permanent residency?

~~~
sumitgt
No, I meant US permanent residency which takes 10+ years in EB2. For Canada,
one can easily get a PR via Express Entry. Which is why many people like me
are strongly considering Canada irrespective of salary.

------
filereaper
"Starting Monday, Canada's government says it will streamline the visa process
so that international tech workers can get a work permit in just two weeks —
compared to a complicated process in the U.S. that can take months."

Excellent, we welcome world-class talent, you'll like it here.

------
majormjr
Canada's Tech Firms will have to increase compensation if they want to attract
talent from the US.

------
sage76
Poignant for me, I haven't been able to decide on where to move. US is still
the big whale as far as tech opportunities go, but for Indians going there
now, permanent residency is not possible within their lifetimes, with an 80+
year waiting time on the green card processing.

Canada is far easier to permanently settle in, but the opportunities are far
fewer, and salaries are lower too.

I don't know what the answer is here.

~~~
eigenvector
The path I've seen many immigrants take (particularly young people who don't
mind re-settling twice) is move to Canada, live here for 3 years, get
citizenship then move to the US on a TN visa. I would say 50% of the
international students I knew in engineering school did this. As you probably
know Canada is by far the easiest G7 country to be naturalized as a citizen.

Others come to Canada with the intention of doing this and end up staying
cause hey, life is pretty good in Canada and after 3 years you may have family
ties here.

The mistake I've seen immigrants make is move to Canada, then move to the US
on an H1B, L1 or other visa before attaining Canadian citizenship, lose their
Canadian PR due to leaving the country permanently, then lose their US job &
visa and end up having to return to their original country.

~~~
sage76
> The mistake I've seen immigrants make is move to Canada, then move to the US
> on an H1B, L1 or other visa before attaining Canadian citizenship, lose
> their Canadian PR due to leaving the country permanently, then lose their US
> job & visa and end up having to return to their original country.

Ouch, that sounds terrible.

Yes, getting citizenship in Canada first seems like a good idea. Btw, it's not
3, it's 4 years.

It's a sad commentary on the broken immigration system of the US, when it
would be faster for me to get Canadian citizenship, and then switch to US
citizenship than go directly for US citizenship.

Though of course, I wonder if the US authorities would be able to find out I
am switching citizenships like that, and cause issues. Do you know anyone who
did this?

------
martinni
To me the bottom line is I can't be "part of the US". My personal values are
not represented at all and I believe their leaders are making all the wrong
choices.

------
mywittyname
My understanding from working with Canadian tech workers is the lure of Canada
is that it is much easier to immigrate there than to the USA.

------
pavement
I bet a number of countries in addition to Canada find the current scenario
highly beneficial.

~~~
nandemo
Canada has some advantages: English is an official language, it already has a
legal and administrative system in place to receive qualified immigrants from
almost everywhere, and a public that's favorable to it.

AFAIK the only other developed country that comes close is Australia.

------
known
Why startups condense in America? paulgraham.com/america.html and
bloom.bg/1O04ymn

------
rb808
I dont understand the hate on Canadian salaries. Its a safer, more liberal
country that looks after its poorest.

If you want cut throat lifestyle that pays the most - with the guy who cooked
you dinner keeping one eye out for an ICE van, your ex-slaves in prison and
some homeless guy going through your dumpster - you'll love the US. If you
want to live a fairer society (Canada, France, Germany, Australia etc) don't
complain about earning less.

~~~
goodcanadian
I don't think people would complain if it were only a little less for the
benefits you describe, but the factor of three that is mentioned by other
comments is not an exaggeration. It is one thing to take a pay cut of 20% to
live in a "safer, more liberal country." It is quite another to take a pay cut
of 70%. Right now, I am trying to move back to Canada. My goal is to get about
50% of the salary that I got at my last job in the U.S., and even that is
looking very unlikely.

~~~
rb808
Sure but the second problem isn't the general level of salaries its that most
countries dont have a city like the Bay Area or NYC. If you compare similar
types of cities: Portland/Vancouver and Chicago/Toronto I dont think the
salaries are 3x.

(Though I get the point that this isn't consistent with my first comment)

~~~
canadian123456
Entry level for a really good engineer in Toronto is... 90k if we're
optimistic & it's changed since I last looked last year? Entry level for a
really good engineer in America is 185k+. Total compensation, obviously.

That's before taking into account the volume of job opportunities, exchange
rate, and access to goods and services.

~~~
rb808
> Entry level for a really good engineer in America is 185k+.

Maybe in the Bay area. Most of the USA you'd get half that with 10y
experience.

------
alphonsegaston
While I agree with this sentiment overall, what pay differential can
compensate for a more general stability? It would be great if someone could
get a high-paying job and not worry about being bankrupted by an unforeseen
medical disaster, but that's not the case in the US.

And by the same token, almost no amount of pay (within the tech spectrum)
could convince me to live in the cities in Texas where right-wing extremists
are rallying outside mosques with assault rifles.

~~~
kmicklas
> It would be great if someone could get a high-paying job and not worry about
> being bankrupted by an unforeseen medical disaster, but that's not the case
> in the US.

I agree with this sentiment but if you have a high-paying tech job then you
probably get insurance which won't bankrupt you in the case of a medical
disaster. It's the ~90% of the rest of the population who has to worry.

~~~
alphonsegaston
I mean...maybe? I know of few American companies that aren't going to find
away to get rid of you if you're out of work for an extended period of time
because of a serious illness or accident. Labor rights are pretty poorly
enforced in the US, and when they are, it's often dependent on you being able
to mount and survive a costly legal challenge. People tell themselves they'll
be ok, but it seems more like a gamble/survivorship bias to me.

~~~
kmicklas
True, if you lose your job and can't get on disability you're pretty screwed.

------
Tokkemon
Come on Canada. You're making me and all Canadians look bad.

------
jankotek
Could someone explain how taxation works in Canada (including VAT, compulsory
insurances, council tax...). Quick googling says income tax has doubled in
2017.

edit: Here is a source for doubled tax, looks like google parser is wrong
[https://pasteboard.co/hMazP1hHs.png](https://pasteboard.co/hMazP1hHs.png)

~~~
Pxtl
> Quick googling says income tax has doubled in 2017. reply

This is not true, and was likely posted by a conservative hardliners.

Canada uses an after-price sales tax like the USA, but in higher quantities -
it will vary between 5% and 13% depending on province. Also, all provinces are
currently implementing a carbon pricing system, so some provinces will have an
additional sales tax on carbon intensive goods like gasoline. Unlike VAT,
they're _above_ the printed cost of the time, not included. These have been
quite stable for a long time.

Also, Canada has income tax. Like the Americans, we run on a graduated income
tax system, where you pay no tax at all on the first $11,000ish dollars you
earn, and then in each tax bracket you pay increasing percentages on the money
that falls within that bracket. There has been modest increases in the highest
tax brackets to pay for a cut in the second-lowest bracket. Also some
"boutique" exemptions have been closed or reduced recently.

In every case, there are taxes paid separately to both the federal government
and provincial governments.

The biggest rising expense here on Ontario is not taxes, but "hydro" which is
what Canadians call electricity (so much of it is generated by hydroelectric
dams and power companies market themselves as hydro companies because of it).
Ontario has had a history of mismanaging electrical bills, and that process
has come to a head and so energy prices have skyrocketed recently.

While our taxes are normally somewhat higher than Americans, it hasn't been
really a huge problem historically. Only now it's starting to come to a head
with cost of living as the crazy housing market has driven mortgages through
the roof _and_ the hydro crisis have come together to create a cost-of-living
problem in the Toronto area.

Finally, we have municipal property taxes (comparable to British council
taxes). These are priced based on the value of your real-estate property.
These are generally stable, as councils are very price-sensitive and are
hesitant to raise them outside of a crisis.

~~~
smnrchrds
> In every case, there are taxes paid separately to both the federal
> government and provincial governments.

I would like to just add that unlike the US, where some states do not have
state income taxes, all provinces in Canada have provincial income taxes, and
with the exception of Alberta, all of them have provincial sales taxes.

------
binarymax
_" Starting Monday, Canada's government says it will streamline the visa
process so that international tech workers can get a work permit in just two
weeks — compared to a complicated process in the U.S. that can take months."_

I'm increasingly troubled by the notion that the only way one can move from
one place to another, is by some contrived rule of value-add that person may
offer. Aside from this new rule, Canada otherwise is a difficult country to
gain entry to. The exclusivity of such movement is worse than outright border
lockdown, because it essentially provides a validated classist bias against
others.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Why should a country not be permitted to prohibit you entry if you don't add
value to said country? That's what sovereignty is all about.

If you are down on your luck, I will take you into my home. But there is a
limit to how many people I can support without them contributing to the
household. Scale this up to nation state scale, and you have visa quotas.

~~~
kmicklas
> Why should a country not be permitted to prohibit you entry if you don't add
> value to said country? That's what sovereignty is all about.

The problem is that capital flows more or less freely but labor does not.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Fully agree there needs to be tighter capital controls. Capital should be a
second class citizen to labor.

