
Apple Plans to Bankroll Original Podcasts to Fend Off Rivals - MBCook
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-07-16/apple-plans-to-bankroll-original-podcasts-to-fend-off-rivals
======
MBCook
This is very unfortunate. Apple being totally hands off, other than running
the iTunes podcast directory, is one of the best things that’s ever happened
for podcasts.

I like my 3rd party app (Overcast). I don’t want to have to use 3 podcast apps
to listen to all my podcasts.

I think I agree with some of the podcast app developers: if it’s not available
in any app it shouldn’t be called a ‘podcast’.

~~~
neves
I see a lot of good podcast apps for Apple but I couldn't find a nice one for
Android. I would like to pay for one, but I can't a reasonable one that allows
me to make my playlists and speed listen without drowning me in ads. Sure I
can spend hours trying each one of the dozens, but would my fellow HN have any
suggestion?

~~~
julianz
Pocket Casts. End of story. It has speed settings and silence trimming,
playlists, syncs across devices, and you pay for it so there's no ads.

~~~
neves
I just bought it. Looks really nice. I like to speed listen to news podcasts,
but music ones must be heard at 1x speed. It is very nice that it has
customized settings by podcast.

------
lxe
I don't like where media streaming is headed. This is what everyone is doing:

1\. Create a distribution platform. Users pay $14 a month to stream all
content. Everyone is happy.

2\. Once successful, start creating exclusive content.

3\. Content creators on your platform start their own platforms and take
content off of yours.

4\. Now users are paying $14 for 6 different distribution/content platforms.
Might as well just call them "channels". This is no better than cable.

~~~
Reedx
Still a lot better than cable since you can watch what you want in real time
and no commercials.

Also you really don't need to subscribe to all of them. Who needs that much
content? I can't even keep up with my Netflix or YouTube queue, let alone the
others. I have Amazon Prime, but never use it. HBO for a couple shows, but
could subscribe only during their seasons.

~~~
beisner
When cable was first introduced there were no commercials...

~~~
xvector
Exactly. As soon as these streaming services become ubiquitous and
irreplaceable, they will go the route of cable and start trying to milk the
cow for all it's worth.

~~~
Slartie
They are already doing that. Amazon Prime Video annoys the shit out of me with
those stupid ads for other shows shown before a series episode actually
starts.

It is just a small step from this kind of self-promotion to showing ads for
stuff on Amazon. After all, they have my purchasing and article browsing
profile and could easily try to find articles that I might be inclined to buy.
I would put some bucks on the line betting that we will see something like
that in the next 5 years.

------
jeena
I live near Gothenburg an a couple of my friends I went to university do work
for Spotify. Every couple of months we meet for afterwork. In addition to that
I do have my own podcast ([https://jeena.net/pods](https://jeena.net/pods))
which I only publish on my own website and added the link to my RSS feed to
iTunes (and [https://gpodder.net/](https://gpodder.net/)).

Last time on afterwork they started asking me why my podcast isn't in Spotify.
I hesitated at first because I knew that I'm basically would need to tell them
that they're working for a company which does immoral things and that I don't
want to help them to destroy the Podcast landscape.

But there was no way around it so I tried to explain it as soft as possible,
but they're intelligent people and didn't have a problem in understanding what
I'm trying to say even though they themselves never thought in those
categories. There was a bit of awkward silence after that. But then we changed
the subject.

------
wenbin
I hope exclusive podcasts don't become a trend. Podcasts are very good media
format for informal education / learning. Instead of spending 30 hours reading
a book, you can just listen to conversion among smart people in 30 minutes in
podcasts. If there are more and more exclusive & paid podcasts, it'll become
harder for young people (or people from poor areas) to access to the content.

ps, I built Listen Notes (
[https://www.listennotes.com/](https://www.listennotes.com/) ) to be an
independent podcast directory that helps surface long tailed podcasts (public
& distributed via rss). If you want to build a better podcast app, you can use
Listen Notes API to jumpstart your project:
[https://www.listennotes.com/api/](https://www.listennotes.com/api/)

~~~
xamuel
>Instead of spending 30 hours reading a book, you can just listen to
conversion among smart people in 30 minutes in podcasts

I don't understand this. Why can't that 30 minute conversation be transcribed
into a script which you can read in 5 minutes? Either way, you're missing
practically everything in the book.

~~~
PascLeRasc
Why listen to music when you can read the lyrics? The written word was created
out of a need to disseminate information to the masses more efficiently than
the author speaking to everyone individually, but that's now a mostly solved
problem with podcast distribution. Spoken word allows for certain nuances that
are hard or impossible to convey over text. Also, it's just fun to listen to a
few good hosts go back and forth.

~~~
lordfoom
>Why listen to music when you can read the lyrics?

I feel that is a false equivalence as information transfer is not typically
part of music.

------
javagram
Next up, exclusive websites that only work in safari?

Podcasts should just be an RSS feed that anyone can consume, but I think
exclusivity will be important going forward, along with locking people into
apps so they can be tracked and monetized.

~~~
sjwright
Or TV shows that only work in Netflix?

~~~
zaksoup
I feel like there is near universal agreement that service-exclusive content
fragmentation is terrible for consumers regardless of media format.

~~~
sjwright
What, like exclusive news articles that are only available from that news
outlet? Sure, it would be great if content siloing wasn't ever a thing—but
it's been a thing since forever.

Hating on Apple for doing what the bulk of the commercial content industry
seems misplaced.

Next I suppose you'll be complaining because Apple chooses to be part of the
capitalist economy and expects to be paid _money_ for their goods. That's
terrible for consumers! _Screw you Apple!_

~~~
zaksoup
Oh please. Is "embrace, extend, extinguish" bad because it is slowly closing
off the open web, or is it fine that Apple, Spotify, etc are buying podcast
producers and moving away from RSS for their own proprietary delivery methods.

And I'm not hating on Apple for doing what the bulk of the commercial content
industry is doing. I listen to The Daily via their public RSS feeds, and I'm
also an NYT subscriber. A significant majority of podcasting is available via
public RSS feeds, even subscription-only Slate Plus allows you to plug a
personalized RSS feed into the app of your choice. Apple and Spotify aren't
building on existing open-web technologies that power RSS to deliver their
premium content, they're forcing everybody into their proprietary apps after
purchasing podcast producers (some of which, like Gimlet, I was previously
ALSO a paid member of).

Perhaps it's best that we default to a highly critical stance when it comes to
the most valuable and most profitable company in the world, and the decisions
they make that affect the foundational principles of the web as we know it?

~~~
sjwright
> Is "embrace, extend, extinguish" bad

Only if there is an extinguish.

Even then I'd say no, because if you don't like what happened, build your own
damn thing. Channel your inner RMS, please. If something isn't free to begin
with, having it taken away from you isn't a loss—it's a reminder that it was
never free to begin with.

> A significant majority of

Thanks for agreeing with my point without realising it. Some podcasts aren't
available for free and/or via RSS. As it happens I pay $5/month to access my
favourite podcast, which is available via a private RSS feed. And my second-
favourite "podcast" is free but not available with an RSS feed.

But no, zaksoup hates a diversity of business models.

> decisions they make that affect the foundational principles of the web as we
> know it

Like companies putting journalism behind a paywall? Screw those arseholes! Who
are they to charge me for goods and services?

------
jakebasile
I really wish they'd compete by just making the Podcasts app not a pile of
shit.

It routinely doesn't sync where I am between devices and never works correctly
on my HomePod. Adding old episodes on one device won't add it anywhere else.
The Apple TV version simply doesn't have the ability to add episodes to your
library. The less said about iTunes' podcast functionality the better.

I know they're porting the iOS Podcasts app to Mac for the next version so
there's some hope.. maybe.

~~~
MBCook
Those problems STILL exist? That’s what drove me to Overcast many years ago.

~~~
jakebasile
I should probably just use Overcast, too. It's insane to me how awful the
Podcasts app is.

~~~
PascLeRasc
I really love Marco Arment and ATP, but I couldn't figure out the UI of
Overcast, so if anyone's in the same boat I'd highly recommend Pocket Casts.
It's a super nice UI and supports Google Casting.

~~~
jvzr
I can't wrap my head around the way queuing works (or more so, doesn't work)
in Overcast so I switched to Castro. Indie devs, iOS exclusive. Can't
recommend it enough!

------
filmgirlcw
I don’t mind if Apple does this. I don’t even mind if Apple uses this as an
opportunity to promote/feature its podcasts more prominently in Apple
Podcasts. But I’m very fearful that Apple will make its podcasts only
available in Apple Podcasts and won’t adhere to the RSS spec and will only be
available in its apps and on its platform.

~~~
chipotle_coyote
I'd kind of like them to make their podcasts totally open (i.e., like every
other non-exclusive podcast), with a proviso that their original podcasts
cannot be made available through any app that shares exclusive for-pay
content. That is, you can listen to an Apple Original Podcast(tm) on not only
Apple Podcasts, but Overcast, Castro, Pocketcasts, etc., but _not_ through
Spotify or Luminary.

And, yes, I recognize that'd be kind of a jerk move, but I'm okay with being a
jerk in this context.

~~~
filmgirlcw
That’s interesting. If there was a way to block Luminary — I’d be in favor of
that.

Spotify has its own repository that is separate from Apple Podcasts — you have
to manually submit to them and they don’t just ingest Apple’s directory (as
others do), but I wouldn’t be opposed to _not_ submitting an Apple podcast to
Spotify.

That said, I’m not in favor of doing anything to the RSS feed that makes it
nonstandard. So if Luminary can add/play files from an RSS feed (not talking
about how they import stuff into their own directory) or Spotify had that
feature, I’d be opposed to breaking the feed, if that makes sense.

~~~
chipotle_coyote
Breaking RSS would be a bad idea, definitely. I think if they did anything
like this, it would be a matter of licensing rather than a technical change.
I've read reports that the New York Times and (possible irony alert) Spotify-
owned Anchor and Gimlet Media have blocked Luminary from their podcasts, for
instance.

------
KaoruAoiShiho
Do you guys think the world would be a better place if platform owners are not
allowed to use their control over the platform to gain an advantage in
adjacent industries? If this level of vertical integration is deemed
monopolistic and illegal? Yes Netflix would have to divest its content
business and Disney would have to divest its streaming business, Sony and MS
would have to sell their game studios and end their third party exclusives.
This way platforms can compete on their own merits as platforms only and
content compete as content only. The consumer would win by choosing the best
platform and the best content without being forced to bundle bad platform and
good content or vice versa.

The situation ATM seems awful.

------
genmon
Given the relatively low cost (I imagine), Apple could instead fund regular
podcasts, but buy out their entire ad/placement inventory, and continue to
make the podcasts available to everyone.

Given Beats 1 as "platform exclusive radio" hasn't made much of a splash (is
it still going?), maybe audio content is better thought about as extending
awareness as opposed increasing stickiness.

------
cm2187
Audio is so trivially pirated (and in fact was pretty much the first resource
to be pirated in the 90s) that I don't know how many seconds they really
expect this content to remain exclusive. All they will achieve is to limit the
audience of these podcasts, but if users are keen to listen to them...

------
youeseh
Why do companies that build platforms and marketplaces keep doing this? Are
they really so uncreative that they just can't help but compete with the
vendors?

------
b_tterc_p
I don’t know why apple assumes they will be good at making creative content.
Podcasts, TV, video games...

They might be. No reason to lean either way. But it’s expensive. It feels
contrary to the desires of people who invested in apple, the hardware,
software, and platform provider...

~~~
jayflux
Apple won’t be making the content, my guess is they’ll pull a Spotify and buy
the productions companies who make the content. Things will continue the way
they are now, except they’re exclusive to Apple.

------
gen3
Personally, I think this is good. It allows more people to make a living off
of podcasting, and will hopefully keep Spotify from taking over the market.

At minimum it helps the medium gain a wider adoption.

~~~
freedomben
I promise I'm not trying to troll-bait you into saying something that will get
you downvoted into oblivion. I'm really curious (please people don't downvote
the response, assuming one comes).

Why do you say:

> _and will hopefully keep Spotify from taking over the market._

Why would that be such a bad thing in your opinion?

Spotify seems like a clear underdog with a ton more vulnerability here. If
anything I worry about the giants (like Apple) continuing to approach
monopoly/gatekeeper status and closing those of us non-Apple users off from
more and more.

Somewhat off topic but I literally can't even text some of my friends anymore
because I'm a "green bubble" or something like that, and it drives them nuts.
I hate the emerging world of have and have-nots that are not for technical
reasons at all.

~~~
gen3
I'm happy to explain! From my point of view I see this as an injection of cash
into the podcasting market. Personally, I don't see podcasts as being super
mainstream (not on the same level as books / music / youtube). I think funding
would allow more content to be produced, and hopefully allow for more people
to enjoy podcasting. This would grow the market as a whole.

Spotify has most of the music streaming market (more then double Apple Music's
share). I do agree that exclusives are bad, but my assumption is that Apple
will make an android podcasts app if they do start charging / require service
exclusivity (Like they did with apple music).

As for the iMessage issue... I don't really have a good solution for that. I
know lots of people use Discord / Signal / GroupMe / Wire for group chats,
since its more platform agnostic.

~~~
freedomben
> _I know lots of people use Discord / Signal / GroupMe / Wire for group
> chats, since its more platform agnostic._

Sadlol, I remember when SMS was platform agnostic :-(

That is really good advice tho. I've started using Keybase, Mattermost, and
Telegram quite a bit and while having multiple apps is a pain, it does address
the various needs of groups pretty well.

~~~
gen3
It still is agnostic! We just have better alternatives now! I agree having a
ton of apps is a pain. I have a folder dedicated to messaging apps.

~~~
freedomben
Very true, SMS feels super clunky and hobbled compared to many of the better
alternatives we have. Thanks for the optimism :-)

------
bmurphy1976
Here comes the overcommoditized corporate schlock. I hope it doesn't take the
air out of the room for the independents. The best thing about podcasting is
it's not completely overrun with corporate censors. That's going to be a
change for the worse I suspect. We'll get a couple game of thrones caliber
podcasts, but in return most are going to be housewives of whatever quality.

------
gringoDan
It's interesting to see this evolution of media over time.

It used to be that it didn't matter who you were - the distribution channel
was all that mattered. For example, MTV could make you famous in an instant,
but the second the channel let you go and replaced you with the next flavor of
the week, you were out of luck.

More recently, we've moved to a model where the platform and medium are less
important than the personality. Think Joe Rogan, who pushes his podcast out to
every channel possible. Or Barstool Sports, which has various content in the
form of podcasts, blogs, YouTube videos, etc.

These power law podcasters (Joe Rogan, Tim Ferriss, etc.) can make more money
on their own than through exclusivity with a distribution network. But they
are few and far between, and require an entire support system to handle ads,
cross-posting content, business admin, etc.

So it seems that the majority of full-time podcasters and content creators,
after attracting an audience, will move _back_ towards a walled garden of
content.

If you're a creator making a living off of your work, would you rather spend
75% of your time on business admin and cobble together your income through ad
and merch sales? Or sign with Apple or Spotify, collect a salary, and spend
100% of your time creating art?

We haven't come full-circle, though. While these creators are locked into the
platform, people are coming to the platform for the creators themselves. The
creators have far more power than they used to. But the consumer has to pay
for a "cable package" of podcast apps and video streaming apps.

Corollary: Lots of people no longer root for teams, but for their favorite
athletes. I see a ton of this especially in the NBA, where people are LeBron
fans first and just root for whatever team he's currently playing for.

~~~
holy_city
I kind of disagree with your take here. This is just the segmentation of the
market into aggregators and channels, just like what happened with cable and
like is happening with OTT services today. Netflix/Hulu are good examples of
aggregators condensing into channels.

The one thing I think that makes this different is that podcasts are stupid
cheap to produce and distribute. You could put together a podcast network in a
weekend. Getting sponsors is probably harder than getting listeners.

I honestly don't see the value-add of Apple throwing their weight into this
market, unless they're planning on monopolizing audio content distribution on
iPhones, or paying a lot more than the podcast's sponsor spots are worth. I'd
be wary of being tied to a single platform for distribution, because that's
played hell with creators on YouTube.

------
picklesman
Hopefully now Tim and Eric can secure their funding!

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lInBaMusmO4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lInBaMusmO4)

(A video of Tim prank calling Apple tech support circa 2006 trying to get
Apple to fund their podcast. The faux biz speak is great)

------
sunshinelackof
I'm not sure of the potential for growth on either end that podcasts have.
Certainly they remain popular with more educated consumers, but I wonder if
it's a case of being unable to see outside of your bubble. On the other end,
podcasts have always been super cheap to make. That isn't going to change.
Most people have historically just made them for fun or out of passion.

There's probably little hope in growing a platform of highly produced podcasts
that supports a bunch of creators, regardless of who does it. I think think
these efforts will crash and burn. But this isn't a problem for the people
who've been recording on a Zoom and paying $5/month to host their libraries
for the last 10 years.

------
gigatexal
No Apple don’t! Just keep the iTunes aggregator of podcasts open and free.
Doing so has kept podcasts vibrant and Apple the defacto curator of the
canonical list of podcasts — a huge moat

------
ihuman
Does the new podcast mac app allow you to see the RSS feed like iTunes? If so,
I wonder if you could extract the exclusive podcasts' feed URL and use it in
3rd party apps.

~~~
freedomben
I can't answer your question, but as someone who uses ruby scripts to do
custom filtering on podcast feeds, I can say that iTunes is one of the biggest
PITAs to work with. Constantly evolving to further obscure the inner workings.
Apple isn't the only one, but they are definitely the 10,000 lb gorilla.

~~~
ihuman
I was more referring to the feature where if you already subscribe to a feed,
you can get the URL from either the right-click menu or menu bar menu.
Although I remember there being a way to get the RSS feed from the Apple
Podcast webpage for the podcast; is this what you are talking about?

~~~
freedomben
Sorry I missed your reply earlier. I was more referring to getting at the RSS
feed URL from an iTunes link

------
doh
That's so unnecessary.

If Apple wants to fend off rivals, then just stop treating podcasts as second
class citizens and built tools for creators, including detailed analytics. I'm
not talking about the type of analytics that Google would built (one that
reports that you were sitting on john while listening to this part), but one
with anonymized usage data that helps creators producing new content and
generate revenue through subscription and advertisement.

~~~
spankalee
What part of Google analytics do you think are different from what you
described?

~~~
doh
I meant that Google would try to extract any and every information from a
user, while Apple can easily just provide the most important information.

Admittedly, I was trying to be a bit funny. Didn't work out obviously.

~~~
travisjungroth
No, I got it. People who get the joke don’t leave a comment. They just exhale
out their nose.

------
charlesju
Does anyone else think the Podcast app is unusable? This is what I'd do if I
were Apple.

1\. Fix your app for people that sub to more than 10 podcasts, I crash all the
time and takes me maybe 5-10 minutes to load into the app. I had to switch to
Spotify because I can't use Apple's version anymore.

2\. Host podcasts for premium members. Run ads for them.

3\. Create an Android and Windows app. Separate Mac app. Own this space.

------
adammenges
One interesting place Apple could add value is offering (once they combine all
their services into Apple+, and then maybe only for those users) let podcast
creators host ad-free versions of their episodes and give a little kick back
to them when an episode is downloaded.

------
barbecue_sauce
Is this where Spotify is heading as well with its acquisition of Gimlet?

~~~
nameismypw
Yes, and Anchor. Podcasts are on the way out, just like the open Web. It's
unfortunate that we refuse to learn from history.

~~~
buildzr
Is there any reason we can't just rip podcasts from these, post them in RSS
feeds and have the non-owned apps list them for free - thus making them far
superior by giving them access to all content?

~~~
roywiggins
Immediate DMCA claims? These podcasts may be free, but they're not copyleft.

------
ycombonator
Apple is trying to compete on the wrong turf à la Netflix, Prime Video and
Spotify. At the end of the day when the “original content” fad ends, its going
hurt Apple badly.

------
clydethefrog
Pesky RSS 0.92 !

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15851985](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15851985)

------
peaktechisnow
Spotify started this war, but Apple will finish it.

------
ortusdux
Que google releasing their verison: audio adwords for podcasts with optional
subscriptions to remove the ads.

------
rwz
Curious what kind of content will be in there.

I can't personally imagine Joe Rogan or Sam Harris kind of conversations under
the Apple umbrella, since no matter the topic, there's always going to be
someone offended and it's now a question of who's gonna spin the "Apple is
sponsoring nazis" kind of narrative first.

------
JustSomeNobody
2019 - The year that podcasting started going downhill because of the greed
machine.

Got no problem with people making money off podcasts, but once everything
starts getting consolidated, crap just goes south.

