

Fuck 'em - jennylang
http://www.deliberatism.com/editorial/fuck-em/

======
mladenkovacevic
It's a very careless thing to say "Fuck'em" to all the people that care about
you enough to take an interest in how your life turns out. For the most part
they aren't trying to box you into some mindless, slave-like existence, but
really just want you to have a plan-B in case your rockstar/pro-
snowboarder/billionaire-entrepreneur career doesn't work out.

I think many people who advise us in our young age grew up in a time when
"travelling & writing" just wasn't a conceivable reality because there wasn't
a market for any of that "finding yourself" bullshit. They were part of a
society that was too busy putting a car in every garage and a chicken dinner
in every dining room (and eventually sending kids to college and on Euro-
trips).

I'm not saying you shouldn't go couch surfing across Eastern Europe if that's
really what makes you feel alive, but don't dismiss an entire cultural mindset
that made it possible for you to do so with a passport that will allow you
across nearly every border in the world. "Travelling", for many non-
westerners, means waiting for 2 years and checking with an embassy every
single day to see if your Visa has been approved so your family can board a
plane that allows you to leave your country for more than 6 months.

~~~
Floopsy
I couldn't have said it better myself.

------
zainny
I personally found the correspondence in the comments between Adrian and Eric
(the author) more interesting than the article itself.

It kinda highlights the contradiction between what people say, and what people
do. Fuck 'em? Sounds bold! But "driving a minivan with two baby seats in the
back" well, that sounds...like me in five years.

Stated alternately, there's an awful lot of people online with regularly
updated blogs, twitter accounts and other social profiles who seem
particularly compelled to tell me how amazing their lives are.

~~~
karjaluoto
For the record, I was careful about what I wrote back in response to Adrian.
He and I were good friends in college; since then he's been a little _too_
interested in my life.

I don't really see my kids or car as signs of a less adventurous life. My kids
are remarkable and have changed how I look at the world. Meanwhile, my car is
just a car. It doesn't define me, nor do I get excited about new models. It's
simply a means of getting places.

What Adrian doesn't know--and I feel little need to point out to him--is that
I've done some pretty interesting things over the years. I quit a job that
paid well, and then lived on almost nothing ($6,000 in the first year). Doing
so was tough, but as a result we've been able to do a lot of new things.

We wrote a book; built some interesting sites, communities, tools; met a bunch
of neat people; rallied some folks around a cause; yadda yadda yadda. Next
year, we're going to try our hand at making a film. I've never done that, but
I really want to try it out.

We've continually pushed our company in new directions, and out of our comfort
zones. Along the way, we've succeeded a bit, and failed a bit. For some
people, this wouldn't be interesting. For me, though, it's a kick. We come up
with an idea; we act on it. As a result, I mostly get to do what I want, when
I want.

I don't think my life is amazing, but I do generally feel pretty good about
it. Additionally, I'm not asking others to live the same was as me. I just
think these are discussions worth having (particularly when folks tell me how
much they hate their jobs).

~~~
zainny
"For some people, this wouldn't be interesting. For me, though, it's a kick"

In a nutshell, this is why I find your assertion that most people live "lame
ass lives" quite callous. A lot of the things you've listed as "interesting"
things you've done in your life sound to me kinda dull and pointless. But
that's fine - it's your life and if there is anyone to say "Fuck Em" to, it's
people who pass judgement on your life.

For the record, I ran a successful company at 22, made a lot of money and have
traveled extensively. But those experiences I've had are no more valuable than
your experiences with your kids on the My Life Is Amazing, Look At Me Index
(MLIALAMI). I know one guy who is ridiculously thrilled with his life as a
professional Starcraft II player. And another who is an amazing mathematician
who loves his work and who probably wouldn't trade places with any of us.

Happiness and satisfaction in life isn't defined along a one dimensional axis
or measured by variation from the beaten path. Want to travel the beaten path?
Loving it? Keep doing it, and fuck anyone who says your life is lame.

~~~
karjaluoto
It isn't so much that I'm calling certain lifestyles lame, it's just that I've
met so many folks who are very unhappy with the choices they've made--and
paradoxically offended by those who don't choose the same path.

Whether you love a life of Starcraft II, travelling the world, or living in
the suburbs, is of little difference to me. My point is simply that folks
shouldn't feel obliged to follow the same path as the status quo.

------
nsxwolf
This came off offensive to me. Kids and a house may not be your ideal life,
but many people have that life and don't consider it "lame ass". Some people
are actually happy and not constantly regretting roads they didn't take in
life. I'm wondering if you're the one who is insecure and depressed.

~~~
jayfuerstenberg
Not sure why you'd find this offensive.

"Fuck 'em" just means "Question everything and don't let others dictate your
values". The author is thinking out loud about something that we all know but
are uncomfortable thinking about: The idea that we are not living to our
utmost.

It's all relative and subjective though. Case in point, I'm sitting at my desk
at work when I'd rather be having a picnic with my family and relieving the
burn out I have after a long week. I'll be sitting here day in and day out
until I retire so I consider this a bit "lame ass" to be honest. But it could
be worse. At least I'm not scouring a mountain of trash for scrap metals in a
3rd world country.

We should all be insecure and depressed from time to time. It jars that thing
in us that helps us grow.

~~~
snogglethorpe
> _We should all be insecure and depressed from time to time. It jars that
> thing in us that helps us grow._

Well said!!

------
jaggederest
It's a good thing we exist in the top percentile of the world's population
that affords us even the luxury to consider this sort of thing.

~~~
pawelwentpawel
And the luxury to post it online.

------
kghose
I think the advice I would give is, before settling into a course in life, go
out and meet as many people you can. Try to just observe and see outcomes.
That way you have an idea of what lives are like along certain paths (in
general).

Myself, I really only had the example of my parents and some relatives. I
don't regret this, because I really like my path in life. It is not easy, but
it is driving.

However, if I could give myself advice, it would be to mingle more with more
people from more diverse lifestyles, just to see outcomes, attitudes and daily
lives.

------
nhebb
> _What if you volunteered some time in a developing country and met someone
> who’d never spent a moment thinking about Chandler and Monica?_

Most organizations that send volunteers to developing countries are either
evangelical or are looking for educated people with skills, both of which
require the kind of conformism that this piece rallies against.

BTW, in all seriousness, who are Chandler and Monica?

~~~
romland
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friends> (or was this a woosh?)

------
monsur
I want to shout it from the rooftops: Dear Internet, stop telling me to make
stuff! Stop telling me to do things!

This whole "cog in the machine" notion is a myth. The world is fascinating,
people are fascinating. Always has been, always will be.

I would counter this entire article with one of my favorite quotes, from the
movie Adaptation:

"Nothing happens in the world? Are you out of your fucking mind? People are
murdered every day. There's genocide, war, corruption. Every fucking day,
somewhere in the world, somebody sacrifices his life to save someone else.
Every fucking day, someone, somewhere takes a conscious decision to destroy
someone else. People find love, people lose it. For Christ's sake, a child
watches her mother beaten to death on the steps of a church. Someone goes
hungry. Somebody else betrays his best friend for a woman. If you can't find
that stuff in life, then you, my friend, don't know crap about life!"

------
michaelochurch
I hate to be the downer, but this "fuck 'em" attitude doesn't work for most
people. Sure, society is mean-spirited, limiting, imbecilic, and cutthroat.
The ratrace literally serves no purpose (it's a sterilized, time-consuming
social-climbing circus that has almost nothing to do with work, and is not
necessary to get done the work society actually needs, more often getting in
the way of actual work) but one cannot just take 5 years out of it and get
back into the game with the same status. Ageism is _huge_ in the business
world (you lose opportunities as you get older and less "shiny") and even one
year is a massive, often intolerable loss.

The "fuck 'em" attitude would be great if it were sustainable, but it's not.
You can't keep living like a teenager when you're in your 40s. Want to have
kids? Then, you need to own your house (it's good for their self-esteem and
has measurable effects on their social and academic success to own the house
they live in) and get them into good schools and make sure they have the
opportunities (intellectual, athletic, creative, occupational) that will
socialize them well and provide them with the connections to have a decent
shot of actually achieving something instead of just being some entitled guy's
pawn. Otherwise, you're just generating middle-grade meat for society to munch
on. So kids are super-expensive, but you can't really have them at age 60, and
you better have laid your groundwork (career-wise) for many years before you
make that decision.

It makes me sick to read this bad advice that tells people they can just do
what they want and that society will accept them for being unique, wonderful
snowflakes. Or "do what you love and the money will follow". It's total
bullshit. People generally suck and are mean-spirited and vindictive, and this
idea that society will catch and nurture those who indulge themselves in a gap
or two is ridiculous. You know what happens (if you're not rich and well-
connected) to your career if you travel for 2 years after school? People
resent the fuck out of you (because they didn't have or take that opportunity)
and ding you for that alone. Six months of leisure travel when young is, for
this reason, somewhat more of a liability than that amount of regular
unemployment (which, post-2008, makes you look more _unlucky_ than
incompetent).

What you actually need to do is figure out what matters, what to care about,
and how much. For example, you should care about your job well enough to do it
well and get promotions. You should not care about it so much that you get
into conflicts that damage your career. You should care about your success in
the company (and in your career) but not about big-picture company-wide issues
over which you have no influence. (Pay attention to these, because they may be
relevant to your career, but don't get emotionally involved or take stupid
risks, even when those risks benefit the company, because you won't give a
shit about "good for the company" if you get fired.) You can't take a "fuck
'em" attitude or get a chip on your shoulder, but blind obedience to
managerial authority is going to lead to mediocrity and misery and, in the
long run, anomie. Somewhere between "yes, sir" douchebaggery and "fuck 'em" is
the right attitude-- the "middle path".

~~~
Stefan_H
You managed to, in more words than the original article, completely miss the
point of the original article...

None of what you assume a "fuck 'em" mentality means is suggested in this
article. It doesn't say that you should go out and walk across the country, it
simply asks "what if?". It tells you to consider other options, to do much of
what you suggest in the last paragraph of your response, except in your
response you still have the assumption that to be successful in life, one must
"care about your success in the company (and in your career)".

This article to me is a reminder that I don't need to do what everyone else is
doing, or expects me to do, in order to be happy. I need to do what makes me
happy, in order to be happy. Sometimes those values align, sometimes they
don't. And in the instances that they don't, if someone else has a problem
with that - Fuck 'em!

------
beebs93
Boiled down it's just saying "Don't be a sheep" (Perfect Circle's "Counting
Bodies Like Sheep" music video popped in my head).

I've read a lot of the posts on that site and it always amazes me how people's
knee jerk reaction is "you don't know me - don't tell me how to live".

Geezuz Jump-roping Christ - panties have never been bunched up so quickly by
so many by so few words.

------
robomartin
Hey, someone has to work at <insert your favorite low-wage-but-I-saw-the-
world-and-write-poetry employer 'cause I don't want to offend anyone>.

Seriously now. The path characterized in the article as "the plan" is not for
everyone. And that's fine. I wish I were an America's Cup competitor. I am
not. I am a pretty good recreational sailor. And that's OK. I chose to follow
a path that led me to engineering and serial entrepreneurship. We don't all
have to follow the same path.

So long as the focus is positive there's value in every path.

A better title for the post might have been "...and that's OK".

------
powatom
Summary:

Fuck everything.

Or not.

I don't know man, do whatever.

------
jayfuerstenberg
Every tiger mom should read this.

------
javajosh
A thoughtless sentiment. I can't imagine anyone reading (or writing) a post
like this and being inspired for longer than 10 minutes. There are many such
sentiments on the web and in books, of course.

Imagine, if you will, this sentiment applied to the art of computer
programming. "Fuck 'em" you say one day. "I don't need to listen to the hoary
old bastards of CS - I can do things _my way_." This lasts exactly as long as
it takes you to run into the exact same issues as the "hoary old bastards of
CS" - and what do you know, you find yourself unable to even begin coming up
with novel solutions.

This is not to say that it isn't useful to revisit the origins of the art - it
is. And it's not to say that some people do precisely this, to some extent,
and come back with something useful. Rich Hickey and Clojure are one example,
and Bret Victor and his (sadly proprietary) prototypes another. There are
more, of course, and they tend to be the stars of the industry.

There are not that many successful rebels. Many more attempt to buck the
trend, and simply fail to produce anything that even works, and if they do,
then it's usually just not that useful to people. A failed rebel, you come
back to the traditional ways, tail between your legs, and build software like
anyone else, contenting yourself with flourishes and, perhaps, being an early
adopter (because if you can't design something novel and useful, you might as
well be an early advocate for something novel and useful.)

The tradeoffs, risks, and odds are basically the same for life. You can indeed
say "Fuck 'em" but chances are you'll end up a failed rebel. There is a non-
zero chance you'll succeed wildly, and find a life that is novel and
successful. But you'll be the exception, not the rule.

