
Don't touch me, I'm British - transmit101
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/db51a45e-4472-11e0-931d-00144feab49a.html
======
iuguy
I flit between the UK and Turkey, and the two are both somewhere close to
opposite ends on the social scale.

In the UK, you can walk into a pub and talk to people, providing you're not
interrupting a discussion, or forcing yourself on the people in the group.
It's easier if you're on your own or with one other person to join an existing
group, or talk to an individual, but it's not common. You don't make eye
contact on the tube in London, but you can talk to people in general outside
of London, and especially up north people are more approachable. Do not touch
(beyond a handshake at most), unless you're very familiar and there's a high
volume of foreigners in the group.

In Turkey (and these are observations as an Englishman so I might be
interpreting this wrong), people are extremely friendly and nosy by
comparison. Turks are incredibly physical in social groups and don't really
have a concept of personal space. In Istanbul women and men intermingle in
some social classes and circumstances but not others. A kiss on each side of
the cheek is expected when the opposite sex is involved provided you've met
before. Don't be surprised if women put their arms around you, tell them their
cold and want you to hug them etc. if you're in a social secular group. In
more religious or formal groups, things are more separate - men will still hug
each other all the time and put arms round each other but women are never
touched (unless they're related or married, and not generally in public). When
you go out to the country it really varies from community to community and the
local culture. The further east the less intermingling with the sexes, but
guys are still generally friendly with each other.

The biggest differences between the UK and Turkey are in going out. Turks...
good god, Istanbul Turks... You go out around 8-10pm and don't come in till
5am. Getting drunk is a bit socially inappropriate (in most groups) but the
party goes on all night.

In the UK, the party normally goes on till about midnight/2am outside, then
occasionally continues back at someone's house, but will start between 5 and
8pm. In the UK, getting drunk is not only socially acceptable but expected.
Unsurprisingly as the drinking continues, social rules about touching start to
unravel.

TL:DR - It's bloody complicated in England, and changes from group to group in
Turkey. Grrrrrrr!!!!

~~~
diamondhead
In the other cities of Turkey -especially the ones in central anatolia-, young
groups have very different culture and their own way to get drunk. My favorite
one is to play card games till midnight in a cafe and continue the night in a
slowly moving car with a group of people drinking beer, listening anatolian
rock&folk music (popular ones; cem karaca, yeni turku, fikret kizilok). We
used to have a football match also before starting to drink (then we're
parking somewhere far away from the city and drinking outdoor because of heavy
amount of perspiration), twice a week. Even though the city I grew up in is a
little bit strict&religious, people hugs, kisses each other with no sexual
thought. But flirting protocol is not that short/low cost, it requires to do
some research FOA, signal revisions, pre-relationship consultancy, tracing,
messaging traffic etc

~~~
iuguy
This is one of the things I love about Turkey. No matter what rules are put
in, even socially, people find a way to route about it.

Also central Anatolia is an incredible place.

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petercooper
Generalizations but reasonably accurate ones _in my experience_. I find it far
easier to socialize and interact with strangers in the US than in the UK.
There's a certain "shock" and disbelief that can appear in the eyes of a
Briton if you randomly talk to them in public. I can't blame them though, I
act exactly the same way until I leave its borders! Perhaps this is why so
many Brits travel and move overseas ;-)

An ancillary point that I've noticed over the years is the relative
unpopularity of open social/discussion sites in the UK compared to the US. The
UK is Facebook mad, of course, but doesn't really have a locally popular
equivalent of Reddit, Hacker News, Digg, MetaFilter, etc. I wonder if the
reduced desire to converse with random people has an effect in this scope too.

~~~
DanI-S
I'm a Brit living in California and I've definitely noticed this - in myself
and others. At first it's almost shocking, but after a while it seems so much
healthier.

The odd part is that I've noticed myself feeling suddenly shy and self-
conscious upon meeting other British people here.

~~~
StavrosK
Having lived in London for a year, it was a far cry from Greece. Over here, we
almost never talk to strangers, although I think I've developed a self-
confidence that does allow me to do that and not sound creepy, nowadays. I've
found that, in the UK, you can talk to anyone at the pub and it's natural, and
in California even more so, but it's not _that_ big of a difference.

Of course, maybe it's just me talking to everyone regardless of the norms, but
people respond very well.

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Vivtek
True dat about German nudity. I lived in Germany a few years and sang in a few
choirs (one very good way to learn good pronunciation, actually) - after one
concert, everybody backstage changed clothing. Together. I was about 19 at the
time, and I'm from Indiana - it nearly killed me.

~~~
tomn
Oddly, in Britain this kind of thing happens quite a lot -- most older men
certainly aren't shy about showering naked in public after swimming, for
example.

Thinking rationally, being shy about our bodies doesn't really make sense --
are there any logical reasons why nudity isn't ok?

~~~
sliverstorm
I personally suspect prudishness about clothing is related to how important
clothing was, historically, in a given country. For example, Britain is very
cold, very wet, and the British used to sail all over the stormy oceans in
wooden boats. Consequentially, clothing would have been extremely valuable for
warmth.

~~~
gaius
Same for the Swedes, but they get naked at the drop of a hat.

~~~
CallMeV
I just heard an echo in my mind of Tasha Yar in Star Trek: The Next Generation
saying "Any. Hat." What is it about colder environments that the colder they
are, the less clothing the natives wear? :D And I agree wholeheartedly with
many of the assertions in the original post. Particularly the assertion that
alcohol was distilled so that we Brits could build up the courage to
reproduce. :)

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robertk
I've had to teach myself to touch everyone I meet (on the bottom of the elbow,
or top of the shoulder), and start conversations with strangers in any
situation. I've met a good number of friends this way, and if the touching is
done properly and subtly enough, it can instantly create a warmth that is hard
to achieve any other way.

~~~
kolektiv
We have a sales/marketing guy that does this. It's clearly a learned/trained
pattern of behaviour (maybe you can hide it better!). Nobody ever mentions it,
and acts in a friendly manner. However, when he's not there pretty much
everyone comments on how creepy it is and how patronised they feel.

Just something to consider - not saying that's the case with you, but this is
a classic area where immediate or obvious reactions are often very different
from inward feeling.

~~~
ballard
Just noticing the parallels that something social delivered too perfectly
polished seems like a computer generated face with perfect symmetry, e.g.,
totally fake.

~~~
carussell
You probably meant "i.e.". "e.g." means "for example".

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smcl
Another rather lazy article, playing on boring stereotypes, pedestrian
anecdotes and uninteresting conclusions. We're all aware of national
stereotypes, and we're used to seeing lame stand up comics riff on them,
however it's unusual to see the FT stoop so low.

If Simon Kuper (a Brit, though one with a sheltered upbringing it seems)
thinks Brits are reserved and prudish, I suggest he visits Glasgow, Newcastle
or indeed any city on a Friday or Saturday night. I dare say he might witness
similar revelations if he were to explore other cultures further, rather than
drawing on boring clichés.

~~~
ajays
An example of the partying culture in parts of Britain can be seen in these
pics of the late-night crowd on a Friday night in Cardiff, Wales:
<http://www.pbase.com/maciekda/cardiff_st_mary_street_zone>

Definitely not "reserved" and "prudish", if you ask me... but I've never been
there, so I don't know how far this is from the truth.

~~~
TamDenholm
That's really very typical of every UK city. It's a product of the late night
binge drinking culture here, people don't act like this when sober and in day
to day situations.

~~~
somabc
In Glasgow it is normal to talk to people in almost any situation, it's the
same in Ireland as well.

~~~
arethuza
And in Edinburgh, which is an hours drive away, it's not really the done
thing.

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russell
Had I been aware of this in my youth, I would have cultivated a French accent
and kissed every female within range, little girls, grandmothers, even pretty
girls. I am sure I would have been happier.

~~~
StavrosK
Why? It's just a kiss on the cheek, like you would shake hands. It doesn't
mean anything... We do this in Greece too, every time you see someone again
(or maybe meet someone for the first time) it's customary to kiss them,
usually twice.

~~~
masklinn
And it generally isn't a kiss, it's more rubbing cheeks and making a smacking
sound, the heads are parallel.

~~~
StavrosK
Yep.

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mark_l_watson
I live in a small town (Sedona Arizona) with _lots_ of international tourists,
many I talk to while hiking two or three days a week on our local wilderness
trails. Mostly, everyone seems to want to talk to a local, but perhaps they
are just trying to be extra friendly visiting a foreign country.

I consciously try to be helpful with visiting tourists and suggest fun places
to visit in our area. Even though I would prefer to carry a sidearm in the
wilderness because of mountain lions, etc., I don't because I don't want to
make anyone uncomfortable: I think that people from most European countries
aren't used to seeing people carry guns.

Here in the USA, we do seem to have interesting behavior regarding hugging
friends of the opposite sex vs. same sex. At least in our circle of friends,
men almost always hug friends' wives in greeting but we only hug each other on
birthdays, after especially good dinner parties, etc. - mostly special
occasions.

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kenkam
An omission would be the Chinese -- I think we are one the most repressed.
Close friends never hug and conversations are always awkward in first
encounters. Love is often expressed in terms of gifts and 'formal' attempts at
the opposite sex, boys often chasing girls; formal in the sense that flirting
doesn't happen often, instead, you 'be nice' to the girl...

~~~
grimlck
I agree. As a chinese guy, i've never even hugged my parents.

~~~
mahmud
Fix that NOW. Don't waste anytime showing your parents love.

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lwhi
Kissing (an acquaintance) in the UK happens a lot - one cheek, sometimes two.
I the fact this guy was surprised says more about him than the population in
general.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
>Kissing (an acquaintance) in the UK happens a lot - one cheek, sometimes two.

The only times I've really seen this is with upper/upper-middle class -
ladies-wot-lunch and all that - and at some schools. Generally it's only been
women kissing.

The only people I cheek-kiss outside the family are close personal friends and
even then only a few and it's not a measure of closeness or strength of
friendship (strangely).

I can imagine it's common in some areas of the South?

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ZeroMinx
Yey, different countries/cultures have different traditions. Film at 11. If
you want to be useful, set up a site/wiki that can describe the different
traditions in different countries. _That_ would be useful.

~~~
alextgordon
<http://wikitravel.org/> does a reasonable job of this. Obviously it's
difficult explaining the culture of a nation in a few dozen paragraphs, and
doubly so on a wiki.

For example (<http://wikitravel.org/en/Britain#Respect>):

    
    
        Allow some personal space between you and others in queues and elsewhere.
        You will usually find this in such places as cinemas. Generally, unless
        people know each other, you will find they will usually choose to fill up
        every row of seating and keep as much distance of possible until there is
        a requirement to sit directly next to each other. Exceptions are in very
        crowded situations where this is impossible, like on the Tube.

~~~
aforty
That's the case in the US as well. I think it's common courtesy more than
anything else. Same reason a man doesn't take the urinal immediately next to
another that is being used, unless he has to. It is courteous to give people
their personal space so long as it's convenient to do so.

~~~
etherealG
I think in some cultures this may be seen as insulting, if personal space
isn't as freely given as part of the culture.

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trystero
One thing you also have to know about France: the number of kisses on the
cheek vary from one place to another. Check out this website:
<http://combiendebises.free.fr/> I come from the south (Hérault département)
and now live in the suburbs of Paris. I have to remember that in Paris it's
two kisses whereas in the south it's generally 3 (sometimes it's only 2). It
can be really disorienting, and awkward when you make the move to do the last
kiss when really it's already finished. Fun times.

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DanI-S
I'm from Britain, live in the US with my American wife, and find it hard to
recognise these behaviours in anyone I've met who is younger than middle aged.

~~~
electromagnetic
I'm from Britain, line in Canada with my Canadian wife. Ditto.

People here go from repressed up the wazoo to open and friendly as anything.
Being in my early 20's, this is what I've seen all my life.

Claiming Britons don't like to be touched is wholly misleading as I hugged
most of my friends, even my guy friends. Girls didn't avoid touching you. Put
it this way, for a term of English origin, I had no clue what cooties was nor
had I heard it mentioned growing up from anyone. It took me associating with
Americans and Canadians to even hear the word.

On this topic, I've noticed that North America is seemingly the only country
with a sociopathy over touch. Back in Yorkshire I remember getting served at
bars and convenience stores and people would slap change into your hand
frivolously. Here in Ontario there's this anal-retentive dance that people try
to give you change but refuse to touch you to actually give you the damn
change. They'll try to slot the note into your hand and drop the change from
like 4 inches, it's psyco-level bizarre.

I guess this is the difference when you grow up in an area with a history of
mining, fishing and farming. People aren't afraid of touch.

~~~
DanI-S
Ha, definitely. There seems to be some kind of bacteria neurosis embedded in
the baby boomer psyche. I'm always astonished by the bottles of alcohol hand-
sanitizer EVERYWHERE. And the hands-free paper towel dispensers. And the
automatic flush toilets. With disposable toilet seat covers.

Yet somehow, nobody covers their mouth when they cough!

~~~
KSS42
That's because of the SARS outbreak.

~~~
electromagnetic
This is a little more deeply engrained than from an outbreak of a single
disease. The thing that is bizarre is that Ontarians respond to disease
similar to how the Japanese cultural response has been to radiation.

The only thing is Japan had two nuclear bombs dropped on it. Ontario has at
most one outbreak of an infectious disease, which didn't really do a god damn
thing; 44 Torontonians died from SARS... but by the average incidence of
accidents over 5100 Torontonians literally died because 'shit happens'.

It's so completely bizarre to an outsider. I mean if this is a corollary to
all North Americans, if I go to New York I expect everyone to duck and cower
on the ground whenever they hear the sound of a plane. _But they don't_.

------
gggf
Here's another data point. In South Africa, in black African culture (can't be
more specific than this, unfortunately), it is considered polite to enquire
after someone else's health when greeting: "hello, how are you". Or rather
it's considered rude NOT to enquire. The standard response is "I'm fine
thanks, and you?".

When I listened to talk radio in South Africa years ago, I remember white
people calling in, and wondering why the automatic response to the phrase
"hello" was often "I'm fine thanks and you".

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hieronymusN
There's this whole odd thing recently in New York where people in Manhattan
want to do the French air kissing on the cheeks thing. You never quite know
who is going to do it, and what the proper response is, and being from Texas
its all rather awkward. There are no hard and fast rules anymore, people pick
things up from movies and travel.

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ajays
The author writes, "Americans hug friends of the opposite sex, but during this
hug only their shoulders touch, and participants end by rubbing each other’s
backs as proof that the hug was nonsexual."

This is so true. There are 3 types of hugs: the sideways hug (as the author
mentions), the "A" hug where just the tops of the bodies meet, and the full on
bear hug. If you get an "A" hug after a date, that's not a good sign. ;-)

~~~
salemh
Missing research which suggest the type of hug and psychological meaning
behind it: pelvic proximity (or touching) and lack thereof.

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steve19
Men and women in Western cultures routinely[0] shake hands to introduce
themselves. That defiantly counts as touching. Somehow the author managed to
forget this.

[0] Mike Arrington being an exception. [http://techcrunch.com/2009/05/09/hand-
shaking-is-so-medieval...](http://techcrunch.com/2009/05/09/hand-shaking-is-
so-medieval-lets-end-it/)

~~~
russell
As an American I dont think a handshake = touching. A handshake is such a
common ritual that I barely notice it. If someone touches me on the elbow or
wrist, I am instantly aware.

~~~
Someone
Isn't that exactly what this article is about? In other cultures "Did you
touch each other?" might get a "no" response even after a kiss. In others,
people who look at each other longer or more often than is the norm are forced
to marry or will be tried for adultery (or be attacked for showing
insufficient respect)

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Tycho
If only the French would respect this. I don't want to go around kissing every
acquantance I make. Seems like a guaranteed way to spread germs. Yet when you
go to France you're almost forced to do this - last time I was there I really
did want to say 'don't touch me, I'm British.' Except I would need to say it
in every separate encounter. Only solution would be to stay there long enough
to cultivate an effective 'miss me with that shit' demeanor/manner.

~~~
sw87
I think you were not lucky because on my experience kissing is not the
majority even in France. I would say it depends on the context. At work
peoples only handshakes. In others situations the norm is: men handshakes men,
and men kisses women (if it's an acquaintance, otherwise only handshake). In
south, if you know well the other guy you may even kiss him (really weird)!
And In families, everybody kisses everybody.

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JCB_K
I can't really agree with this article. I moved from the Netherlands to the
UK, and I was surprised to notice that any Brit who you've met before at least
once will give you a hug the next time they meet you. In the Netherlands hugs
are reserved for very close friends and family.

Also, I've had people talk to me on the bus, in the queue in Tesco, etc. Quite
unusual to me as well.

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jscore
I always found it strange to shake a woman's hand when meeting. In Brazil they
kiss on two cheeks, which seems more natural to me. Guys always shake hands.

If she's a gf/wife/friend of a friend, I'm not about to enter into a business
negotiation with this woman, so why shake hands.

~~~
bane
Sometimes a delicate and formal hold of the fingers, slightly raised, is more
appropriate than a handshake.

I grew up and was taught this method when shaking a lady's hands, and to have
a firm, dry, handshake with men (as a judge of character).

I know it sounds silly, but it's built in to me now and I'll walk away from
meetings thinking about the handshakes of the people in the room as much as
the content of the discussion.

~~~
StavrosK
In a related note, I hate limp handshakes. I don't judge the person based on
it, but it puts me off and maybe sets the mood a bit.

~~~
omnipath
How interesting. I do have a limp handshake, because I feel too strong of a
handshake can be off putting. I don't tend to like people with strong
handshakes, because it feels like they're too controlling.

~~~
StavrosK
There's middle ground, though.

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thibaut_barrere
> In France, a kiss from a pretty acquaintance can generate a frisson

Isn't that true of most places?

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wooster
I'd just like to point out that the phrase "skinny dipping" originated in
America. We also shake hands with strangers. So, at the least, the getting
naked and touching claims are questionable.

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will_critchlow
I'm surprised by the eye contact comment. As a brit, I definitely rate eye
contact.

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petegrif
Complete and utter bollocks.

