
The Meaning of July Fourth for the Negro (1852) - privateprofile
http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/douglassjuly4.html
======
codetrotter
Those of us who are not from the US may not know who this man was.

From the Wikipedia article about him:

> Frederick Douglass (born Frederick Augustus Washington Bailey; c. February
> 1818 – February 20, 1895) was an American social reformer, abolitionist,
> orator, writer, and statesman. After escaping from slavery in Maryland, he
> became a national leader of the abolitionist movement in Massachusetts and
> New York, gaining note for his oratory and incisive antislavery writings.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Douglass](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Douglass)

~~~
arethuza
Frederick Douglass is mentioned in Sagan's superb "The Demon-Haunted World:
Science as a Candle in the Dark":

 _" Frederick Douglass taught that literacy is the path from slavery to
freedom. There are many kinds of slavery and many kinds of freedom. But
reading is still the path."_

Also, perhaps my favourite part describing the reaction to a speech by
Douglass:

 _" His very appearance and demeanour destroyed the then- prevalent myth of
the 'natural servility' of African-Americans. By all accounts his eloquent
analysis of the evils of slavery was one of the most brilliant debuts in
American oratorical history.

William Lloyd Garrison, the leading abolitionist of the day, sat in the front
row. When Douglass finished his speech. Garrison rose, turned to the stunned
audience, and challenged them with a shouted question:

'Have we been listening to a thing, a chattel personal, or a man?'

'A man! A man!' the audience roared back as one voice.

'Shall such a man be held a slave in a Christian land?' called out Garrison.

'No! No!' shouted the audience.

And even louder, Garrison asked: 'Shall such a man ever be sent back to
bondage from the free soil of Old Massachusetts?' And now the crowd was on its
feet, crying out 'No! No! No!'

He never did return to slavery."_

~~~
arionhardison
> "Frederick Douglass taught that literacy is the path from slavery to
> freedom. There are many kinds of slavery and many kinds of freedom. But
> reading is still the path."

I believe this same thing holds true for coding and the modern day African
American ( of which I am one ). I earn 6x more than my father ( Fisk
University / TSU - BS/Masters ), 3x more than my sister ( Yale / Columbia
Educated Architect - BS/Masters ) and an even greater multiple more than the
rest of my family - yet I have no college education. I truly wish more African
Americans saw that coding is the new literacy and IMO a real path to freedom.

~~~
root_axis
I totally disagree. Coding is a not at all comparable to literacy, it is
simply a lucrative trade that is in demand at this time in history, but it
won't always be (in fact, I suspect the career prospects for software
engineers will look very similar to the career prospects for lawyers today,
within the next 30 years). I say this as a black male software engineer under
35 without a college education who is in the 95th percentile of income earners
in the U.S.

~~~
arionhardison
>> Coding is a not at all comparable to literacy, it is simply a lucrative
trade that is in demand at this time in history, but it won't always be (in
fact, I suspect the career prospects for software engineers will look very
similar to the career prospects for lawyers today, within the next 30 years).

I think you are playing semantics, my argument is simply that coding can be as
fundamental to earning a living as literacy and unlike many other occupations
there are no gatekeepers that tell you what/when you can code - thus it gives
you the freedom to work to improve yourself and your situation in ways that
other occupations do not. I have no interest in debating the fundamental
building blocks of learning etc... only the tactical dat to day skills that
can add value to ones life but I would like to see your GitHub profile. Here
is mine -
[https://github.com/ArionHardison](https://github.com/ArionHardison). I also
have 0 interest in your supposition, do you have any empirical evidence to
back up the assertion that coding in 30 years will be akin to being a lawyer?

Note: To assert that someone would be able to code well enough to hold a job
whole also being functionally illiterate is simply moronic.

~~~
root_axis
> _Note: To assert that someone would be able to code well enough to hold a
> job whole also being functionally illiterate is simply moronic._

Perhaps it is moronic to reduce "literacy" to a binary attribute. Are you
deliberately misinterpreting my statements or do you honestly believe I'm here
arguing for a definition of literacy that stops at 1st grade language arts?
Increased literacy translates into increased ability to communicate
effectively and intentionally. Increased literacy translates into faster
knowledge acquisition and higher productivity gains.

Many engineers I've worked with have excellent literary skills, but many have
poor literary skills and it is very obvious when those poorly developed skills
are holding them back; it is especially noticeable among those who have an
aversion to books or dense technical literature and supplement their
experience almost exclusively with videos and by following tutorials. I'm not
knocking videos or tutorials, I use them and I think everyone should, but if
you're not also utilizing and improving literary skills you will always be
overshadowed by those who are.

Consider the example of the developer who jumps into a new framework on the
job and just starts hacking away until they've got a functioning MVP, but in
the process also wastes 8 hours trying to demystify the behavior of a complex
API by running tutorial code rather than spending an hour doing a
comprehensive read through the documentation after which everything makes
sense. Consider the missed opportunities for otherwise talented individuals
who simply lack the literary skills necessary to participate in ongoing
written communication with non-technical management, executives, and business
partners. Consider the loss of productivity from poorly written or non-
existent documentation. I see this kind of thing _all the time_.

> _I think you are playing semantics, my argument is simply that coding can be
> as fundamental to earning a living as literacy_

I am not "playing semantics", I explicitly disagree with the notion that
"coding can be as fundamental to earning a living as literacy", it simply
doesn't get any more "fundamental" than being able to read and write and there
is nothing "fundamental" about code writing _skills_ that cuts across almost
every track of occupational advancement the way that literary skills do. Don't
misunderstand, I'm not suggesting that _logical thinking skills_ do not cut
across all domains, I'm saying that _coding_ skills do not, they are not at
all the same thing.

> _there are no gatekeepers that tell you what /when you can code_

Such is the case for all artisanal skills, it is only that writing code
happens to be in very high demand at this time so it is a smart economic
choice given the available options, but that obviously won't last forever and
is clearly contingent on a market demand for the skillset. Literacy, on the
other hand, is a timeless skill that pays dividends indefinitely in the
advancement of one's career regardless of the industry.

> _it gives you the freedom to work to improve yourself and your situation in
> ways that other occupations do not_

Not true. Practice makes perfect with code, just like anything else, it's only
that nobody is going to pay someone with 1 year of experience a 60k salary to
produce hobbyist level paintings and music, thus "the freedom to work to
improve yourself" becomes "things I don't have time to do because I'm
working".

> _I would like to see your GitHub profile_

Why? I don't measure my career success by a matrix of green squares displayed
on a corporation's website. Seriously, who cares? This is kinda what I'm
talking about. Your github profile is just self-aggrandizing noise in the
technocratic bubble of the software industry, it's not inherently important.

> _I also have 0 interest in your supposition, do you have any empirical
> evidence to back up the assertion that coding in 30 years will be akin to
> being a lawyer?_

I didn't say it was a proven fact, only that it is something I suspect - but
to offer some reasoning for this suspicion

1\. Year over year developers are able to produce more and more, with less
bugs, at faster rates and cheaper costs. 30 years ago, you couldn't pay an
experienced team of 10 to do what a single mid-level dev can accomplish with
Rails and AWS today (i.e. doing more with less = less demand for engineers =
lower wages)

2\. Open source _greatly_ exacerbates this effect and it is compounding as
more and more open source software matures and is able to _do more_. (i.e.
tools that get better and easier with 0 cost = lower barrier to entry in the
industry = higher supply of engineers = lower wages)

3\. An _explosion_ of interest in the field spurred by high salaries, high
prestige, popular media, deliberate awareness campaigns, a burgeoning bootcamp
industry and an unlimited springwell of high quality resources for free
online. (i.e. large influx of new engineers * explosion of free high quality
learning resources = big spike in supply of quality engineers = lower wages)

4\. Increasing saturation of software markets. We see it pretty much across
the spectrum of software from apps and games to office and web; the only area
that isn't saturated yet is B2B but that won't last forever either. How many
times in how many languages can we remake the same CRUD application before
companies start to realize that open-source or off-the-shelf software can be
much more cheaply deployed and maintained by an agency as opposed to
recruiting and managing an expensive software department? Obviously, software
companies can't really do that, but it is becoming increasingly viable for
every other industry to do so as the software gets better and better.

All these trends are _increasing_ in intensity and amplifying each-other, the
golden era of the engineer won't last forever.

~~~
arionhardison
1\. I wanted to see your GH profile because I simply do not believe that you
are what you claim to be. - Non college educated black dev making 200+ a year.
That "self-aggrandizing noise" is social proof and as I suspected you refuse
to provide any. I run into people like you any time I tell people any aspect
of my story ie: blah blah poor kid made it big via coding blah blah. There is
always someone like you that attacks what I have done and claims the same but
can never provide a single piece of evidence to support their claim.

2\. There is actually no #2. I have work to do, the things I build help people
so while you may take this reductionist attitude toward me and my work it
really does not matter because as long as I can push code and use that as a
mechanism to distribute my ideas at scale to cause measurable change in the
lives of others my code matters - I suspect Fredrick Douglas would be proud of
that as where you are just all talk.

Also, [https://dietmanager.com](https://dietmanager.com) \- my work is FAR
from a simple CRUD app but good luck w/ that.

~~~
root_axis
> _I wanted to see your GH profile because I simply do not believe that you
> are what you claim to be._

lol, come on man, do you honestly think I care about proving my
accomplishments to random internet strangers? I don't even care about proving
it to IRL strangers.

> _that "self-aggrandizing noise" is social proof and as I suspected you
> refuse to provide any_

I don't feel like I need to prove anything to you; my statements stand on
their own. I also hope the irony of asking a black guy to dox himself in order
to prove that he's actually real isn't lost on you. If I had said I was white
would you feel the need to ask for proof of my accomplishments? A successful
black engineer who disagrees with you is not a unicorn.

> _There is always someone like you that attacks what I have done and claims
> the same but can never provide a single piece of evidence to support their
> claim._

I'm not sure why you're being so defensive. Seriously, please copy and paste
ANYTHING I've said that is attacking you or any of your work. I simply
disagree with your assertion that coding is as fundamental to career success
as literacy, _that 's it_. I wrote a really long reply with a lot of details
explaining my specific reasoning and you completely disregard it in favor of
some twisted caricature of my reply that you've decided is a personal attack
against you and your work. You're not even hearing what I'm saying so I'll
stop here. Good luck on your app.

------
euthanes
It's incredible that a speech from over 160 years ago can have such an
emotional impact on a 2018 American reader. If you feel uncomfortable reading
this speech just as I did, you understand the importance to reflect on our
national moral compass.

> At a time like this, scorching irony, not convincing argument, is needed. O!
> had I the ability, and could reach the nation's ear, I would, to-day, pour
> out a fiery stream of biting ridicule, blasting reproach, withering sarcasm,
> and stern rebuke. For it is not light that is needed, but fire; it is not
> the gentle shower, but thunder. We need the storm, the whirlwind, and the
> earthquake. The feeling of the nation must be quickened; the conscience of
> the nation must be roused; the propriety of the nation must be startled; the
> hypocrisy of the nation must be exposed; and its crimes against God and man
> must be proclaimed and denounced.

------
ericdykstra
This is a great speech. Douglass' biographies are on my to-read list.

The Declaration of Independence was an important and powerful document. An
oft-overlooked part is that it set the stage for the end of slavery, a world-
wide phenomenon that encompasses known human history, around the world.

At the time of writing, it was more important to keep the country together
than to end slavery, but just ~40 years after independence America ended the
slave trade, and it was the new nation of the United States of America that
freed all slaves less than 100 years after it's founding.

The founders of America truly had a great vision, and created the foundation
of a radically new kind of country that beget the end of slavery in the
developed world.

~~~
MarkMc
Yes the founders of America had great vision and developed a radically new
kind of country. But I'm not convinced that they had great vision or positive
impact with regard to slavery. Weren't they hypocrites to permit slavery while
proclaiming proudly that all men are created equal?

The Slavery Abolition Act of 1833 abolished slavery throughout the British
Empire. The thirteenth amendment to the United States constitution abolished
slavery in 1865. So a first approximation is that American independence
extended slavery on US soil by 32 years.

~~~
spaginal
The British used indentured servitude well into the 20th century. Sure, it’s
not the same kind of slavery movies enjoy depicting, but the practice was just
as inhumane and brutal in many respects. Indians were particularly affected by
it.

America ended all forms of slavery, including indentured servitude, under the
13th amendment after the civil war.

We shed a lot of blood as a country to get that result, the sacrifice of those
men and women shouldn’t be so quickly cast aside.

Our Founders knew the fight against slavery was coming, they discussed it
extensively in historical records you can look up, but they had bigger fish to
fry first when they founded the country. The fact the United States moved so
quickly after the ratification of the Constitution to ban slave importation in
1808 shows they had a strong desire to get the issue solved. The country
quickly chipped away at it with all things considered.

~~~
jernfrost
With all due respect that is hogwash. The war of independence was not quite
the glorious thing Americans like to paint it as. 1) The southern states only
joined after they learned that the British were freeing slaves. Now the
British may not have had ulterior motives, but then don't pretend all
Americans did either.

2) The Royal Proclamation of 1763, which forbid european american settlers
from expanding into native American territory, was a major contribution to
resentment towards British rule. Not exactly a very honorable thing.

3) As for slavery. The Convict lease system existed until past the 1900s or
so. This was an enormous system. Over 70% of the income of the state of Albama
was from convict lease system. This was just black slavery under a new name.
Not only that but it was significantly more brutal than the old slavery.

4) My wife's side of the family is from Hawaii so I've been there many times.
I know all to well about the extent of involuntary servitude placed upon
immigrants there. People were beaten lynched, racist laws preventing e.g.
Chinese from doing anything but farm work. The whole island was illegally
invaded by the US. Hawaii was recognized as a sovereign nation by all of
Europe at the time.

Ok, I am not trying to say the US was the worst ever, one always ends up
getting those accusations. I merely asking to stop this incessant American
tendency to glorify themselves as so much better than everybody else.

Painting the English as some sort of evil tyrants might make sense in India.
But in America people tended to enjoy a lot more freedom and lower taxes than
anywhere else. Britain had never promised representation to colonial subjects.
The US followed the exact same practice in their own colonies. Did not see the
Philippines get any representation in the US. Puerto Rico still doesn't.

~~~
tptacek
I think I agree with the broad thrust of your argument but I am having trouble
sourcing the "70% of Alabama's income" stat, and the stats I have found are
more like 10%.

------
peterwwillis
_> "By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down. Yea! we wept when we
remembered Zion. We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof.
For there, they that carried us away captive, required of us a song; and they
who wasted us required of us mirth, saying, Sing us one of the songs of Zion.
How can we sing the Lord's song in a strange land? If I forget thee, O
Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning. If I do not remember thee,
let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth."_

 _> What, to the American slave, is your 4th of July? I answer; a day that
reveals to him, more than all other days in the year, the gross injustice and
cruelty to which he is the constant victim. To him, your celebration is a
sham; your boasted liberty, an unholy license; your national greatness,
swelling vanity; your sounds of rejoicing are empty and heartless; your
denunciation of tyrants, brass fronted impudence; your shouts of liberty and
equality, hollow mockery; your prayers and hymns, your sermons and
thanksgivings, with all your religious parade and solemnity, are, to Him, mere
bombast, fraud, deception, impiety, and hypocrisy-a thin veil to cover up
crimes which would disgrace a nation of savages. There is not a nation on the
earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the people of the
United States, at this very hour._

Douglas was woke af.

It looks like there's a maritime museum dedicated to him and Isaac Myers right
near where Douglas lived in Baltimore. I'm a bit ashamed to admit I had no
idea this existed, and I lived there for 5 years.
[https://www.google.com/maps/place/Frederick+Douglass-
Isaac+M...](https://www.google.com/maps/place/Frederick+Douglass-
Isaac+Myers+Maritime+Park/@39.2797457,-76.596331,15.75z/data=!4m12!1m6!3m5!1s0x89c80378c0a47ba9:0xa6cb5051d69eeb42!2sThames+Street+Wharf!8m2!3d39.2796024!4d-76.5967541!3m4!1s0x89c80378bc2b6d51:0x595b256d3568d579!8m2!3d39.2794286!4d-76.5960038)

~~~
jernfrost
I've always found hypocrisy to be an American specialty like no other. Who
else exerts so much time talking passionately about freedom while at the same
time locking up more people than anybody else on the planet and invading more
countries than anybody else on the planet.

The Chinese and Russians e.g. seem a bit more honest about the machinations.

~~~
peterwwillis
I find it funny you're being downvoted, as if people just don't like hearing
the truth.

America houses more prisoners than any country in the world (around 2.4
Million). More than both China and Brazil combined, the next two highest
(Brazil has recently beat out Russia for third highest prison population). To
give some comparison, the combined population of China and Brazil is 1.6
Billion, compared to America's 326 Million.

About one in three Americans has a criminal record.
[http://www.sentencingproject.org/wp-
content/uploads/2015/11/...](http://www.sentencingproject.org/wp-
content/uploads/2015/11/Americans-with-Criminal-Records-Poverty-and-
Opportunity-Profile.pdf)

~~~
jernfrost
Holy crap!!! 1/3rd that is insane. What is that not a bigger topic? I guess
that explains that the first time ever I met anybody who had been in prison
was when I moved to the US (I had enough after a year and went back. Got too
much police state vibes).

Don't get me wrong. There are LOTS of things I love about the US. The country
fascinates me immensely. There are many things Americans can be proud of. I
just wish there was more acceptance towards the idea that the US is in fact
quite flawed and not miles ahead of everybody else in freedom as they like to
portray it.

It almost feels a bit insulting when you interact with Americans and they just
assume you live in a dictatorship, because hey only Americans have freedom.
That mindset can't be by an accident. It must be from the constant harping on
in school and in public about how amazing and free the US is.

~~~
peterwwillis
It's not a big topic because systemic racism and political and social neglect
have made it normal.

The simplest way to look at it is this. Some minorities in this country have
been forced to be poor due to a combination of social and state-sanctioned
actions accumulated for a century or two. People in poverty often end up
associated with crime and drug use. As a massive amount of cheap, highly
addictive illegal drugs pours into poor areas, crime and drug use climbs.

The political system decides that the solution is to punish people more, the
thinking apparently being that punishing them harsher will somehow alleviate
the source of the crime and drugs: poverty. So the minorities targeted by
racist policies, mainly poor black people, get locked up 6x more than anyone
else. When they get out of jail, they have even fewer opportunities to make a
living. The end result is a cycle of poverty, crime, prison, poverty, crime,
prison.

To address this, you basically have to state that 1) America is deeply
affected by systemic racism, 2) Politicians sentenced poor people to languish
in prison rather than help them rise out of poverty, 3) Our citizens don't
care much about each other.

It's very easy to ignore a big problem like our insane prison problem when the
people affected don't live in your community or they're locked up in prison.
The poor black communities who are affected have become completely normalized
to it; every black person I know has a member of their family who has been to
or is in prison.

Even though keeping people in prison costs us tens of billions of dollars, and
continues a revolving door of poor people, new prisoners, crime, illegal
drugs, and racism, we refuse to address the problem. We will continue to do so
as long as we refuse to look hard at our own complicity.

------
gadders
A very interesting guy. The Art of Manliness has some good articles on him.

Comic version of an extract from his autobiography:
[https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/an-original-aom-
comi...](https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/an-original-aom-comic-
frederick-douglass-how-a-slave-was-made-a-man/)

His speech on self-made men:
[https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/manvotional-self-
mad...](https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/manvotional-self-made-men-by-
frederick-douglass/)

------
hi41
I have great admiration for Frederick Douglass. He must have had great drive
within to be a self learner. His writings and speaches are so good!

------
wu-ikkyu
Frederick Douglass' autobiography is one of the most inspiring books I've ever
read, a book which every American should read.

However, after reading his story, one cannot help but be angered by the many
who push the popular, patronizing, and cryptically racist mantra that black
americans don't have the power within themselves to overcome the legacy of
slavery.

[https://youtu.be/_DUyOg49gHw](https://youtu.be/_DUyOg49gHw)

~~~
fwip
Speak for yourself. I personally find it simple to see direct parallels
between his speech and the current treatment of black people.

Nobody is saying "it is impossible for a black person to make it in America,
because of racism." But racism does stack the deck against them.

~~~
wu-ikkyu
>stack the deck against them

The question is: how should one react to learning that life is unfair and full
of adversity against them?

Perhaps the Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass could serve as a good
example?

I wonder if Douglass had just remained hopeless, blamed others, and waited on
the government to fix his problems, instead of learning to read, educating
himself, and becoming resolutely determined to gain freedom, would we even be
talking about him right now?

Surely Douglass was delt far worse cards than most american's complaining
about the deck today.

~~~
mcguire
" _The question is: how should one react to learning that life is unfair and
full of adversity against them?_ "

The answer: Get incredibly lucky; Douglass learned to read with help from his
master's wife when such was significantly frowned on and (IIRC) illegal.
Respond to disagreeable situations violently ("After Douglass won a physical
confrontation, Covey [a poor farmer who had a reputation as a "slave-breaker"]
never tried to beat him again"). Commit crimes; Douglass attempted to escape
repeatedly.

After that, all you have to do is become one of the most successful writers of
your age. This step is trivial.

~~~
wu-ikkyu
That is an incredibly disempowering opinion. Is there any practical value to
leading one's life in accordance with such a philosophy?

>The answer: Get incredibly lucky;

Does a human have no agency in which to improve their odds?

>Douglass learned to read with help from his master's wife when such was
significantly frowned on and (IIRC) illegal.

Indeed today educating oneself is frowned upon by many in the black community,
those who do are often referred to as "white" or "uncle toms". Does that mean
one should refrain from it?

>Respond to disagreeable situations violently ("After Douglass won a physical
confrontation, Covey [a poor farmer who had a reputation as a "slave-breaker"]
never tried to beat him again"). Commit crimes; Douglass attempted to escape
repeatedly.

"Disagreeable" is incredibly euphemistic and dishonest characterization of
slave-breaking camps. Should human beings not rebel when being tortured and
enslaved?

"One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws.
Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. I would
agree with St. Augustine that "an unjust law is no law at all." -MLK

~~~
fwip
Now you're just willfully misunderstanding. If you're not gonna talk in good
faith, it's not worth having this discussion with you.

~~~
wu-ikkyu
How did I misunderstand? It was not willfull. Maybe they were speaking tongue
in cheek and I did not realize? It seemed they were willfully misunderstanding
the life of Frederick Douglass which came across as malicious to the struggle
for human rights.

------
EGreg
What is the history of slavery in the Islamic / Arab middle east? When did
those countries abolish it? I think it was fairly recent, some in the 20th
century... I mean not counting recent the scandal from the guardian about
migrant workers who can’t get an exit visa.

PS: I am curious why asking about continuing slavery in other parts of the
world importing Black slaves is so heavily downvoted. Aren’t people equal
regardless of where in the world they are? Why discourage concern and
knowledge about slavery of people of African descent??

This is like when the Paris attacks happened and the world was lit up in
French colors while on the same day the same group (ISIS) killed just as many
people at a stadium Beirut, Lebanon and no one seemed to even mention them. We
need to move past our navel gazing.

[https://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/11/16/world/middleeast/beiru...](https://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/11/16/world/middleeast/beirut-
lebanon-attacks-paris.html)

~~~
sctb
If you'd like to discuss slavery elsewhere, why don't you post a substantive
article on the topic? That's what Hacker News posts are: a story and a
discussion about that story.

~~~
EGreg
Is this the norm on Hacker News that asking about continuing abuses in other
parts of the world is not relevant to the topic about historical abuses in the
USA, and one needs to get their own topic heavily upvoted to get a discussion?

~~~
eropple
When your post reads like "rationalist" (read: white supremacist/American
nationalist) whataboutism and seems to be there just to pivot to What About
The Islams, Man, having a mod like 'sctb suggest you chill out is a pretty
light response.

Not saying your post _is_ that. But I am saying that if somebody of that mind
wanted to derail some things, they'd write your post.

EDIT: Ah. Saw your comments elsewhere in the thread. Sorry for giving you the
benefit of the doubt.

------
lizardskull
Unless you are building a time machine, what are the other distractions more
beneficial to improving the present than using that precious time to consern
yourself with the far past mistakes made by humans?

