
Apple facing record bill for Irish tax - shazzy
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37216176
======
djrogers
Seems kinda crazy to retroactively assess taxes/fines on a company that was
doing something completely legal in the country it was operating in. If you
don't like the rules, change them - but to go backward in time and say what
was clearly legal shouldn't have been is crazy.

That'd be like re-scoring the 1890 World Series based on today's MLB rulebook.

~~~
Marazan
It wasn't legal though, it was illegal state aid in contravention to the laws
of the single market Ireland was signed up too.

~~~
JoshTriplett
That depends heavily on whether Apple received clarifications and information
about the existing tax code, or whether they received special-case tax breaks
that didn't apply to everyone. The latter might violate EU requirements.

~~~
Marazan
Apple have publically admitted to getting special treatment.

~~~
anonbanker
source?

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cryptoz
I still don't understand why companies avoid local taxes. It doesn't make any
sense to me. Their fiduciary duty is to act in the best interests of their
investors. Unless the investors all consider their best-case-scenario to live
in a world of anarchy and lawlessness, it is obviously in everyone's best
interest (financially and otherwise) to pay taxes as expected. Anything else
is an affront to the structure of modern civilization.

It is not in the best interest of Apple shareholders for the quality of life
in the US/California/etc to deteriorate due to missing tax dollars. Long-term,
stable societies are much more useful for making money than a few billion in
secret stash tax havens.

~~~
aianus
I'd rather pay taxes to Apple, Tesla, and Google than the US government. At
least they're competent.

~~~
oconnore
So, in case anyone else hadn't noticed, we have reached peak libertarian
techie madness.

~~~
s_kilk
It's almost as if none of these guys have ever read any nightmarish dystopian
cyber-punk fiction. Megacorps as stand-in for governments == bad.

~~~
icebraining
Or they don't happen to think that cheap sci-fi pulp, which is the vast
majority of cyber-punk, are a good argument for or against anything.

~~~
Apocryphon
"We live on an internet created by corporate persons, our government is hacked
by Russian spies, and virtual reality is real now, dear." \-
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gazACJ0R1Hc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gazACJ0R1Hc)

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adwhit
Amusing that Ireland are going to appeal a decision which results in their
receiving billions of dollars. They accurately calculate that a few billion is
scant compensation if the Masters of the Universe then choose to go elsewhere
for their tax-avoiding needs.

~~~
anonymousDan
Not really. Apple have been in Ireland since the eighties and are one of the
biggest private sector employers in Cork. There are a lot of jobs on the line,
it's not like they are some kind of brass plate company with no actual
presence here.

~~~
Graphon1
> one of the biggest private sector employers in Cork.

What do all those people do? do you know? I'm interested.

~~~
yardie
Simple, they take the mail out of a corporation's fake HQ PO box in Ireland
and forward it to where they're actually based.

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J0-nas
I think it's quite amusing how Apple(+other companies) and their tax avoidance
scheme earned them a fortune in "tax heavens" and now both the EU and the USA
are trying their best to get some of the money back.

Here is to hoping EU politicians fix the tax system and force companies to pay
a meaningful tax in the countries where they sell their products.

Personally, I'm not very optimistic considering J.C. Juncker is still one of
the most influential EU politicians.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-
Claude_Juncker#Controvers...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-
Claude_Juncker#Controversies)

~~~
cloudjacker
funny thing to say since the US Treasury is criticizing the EU over this abuse
of tax law

The US and Ireland both signed off on the arrangement that apple and other
companies use to avoid tax.

Now, a government that didn't exist at the time, is using new case law it has
created, to retroactively change the tax laws of the governments underneath
it.

Think of it as Europe's Marbury v Madison moment

~~~
rtkwe
> Now, a government that didn't exist at the time, is using new case law it
> has created, to retroactively change the tax laws of the governments
> underneath it.

It's kind of tricky because though the EU as it is today is relatively new
Ireland joined the European Economic Community which essentially became the
EU. Also whenever that rule came into effect the special rules Ireland gave
Apple should have been reevaluated and removed. They've always been against
the state aid rule it's just not been tried until now. As for "changing the
tax laws of governments underneath it" that's part of being in the EU you give
up parts of your national sovereignty in a number of areas for the benefits of
being in the open market.

~~~
rtkwe
> Ireland joined the European Economic Community which essentially became the
> EU

Forgot to finish this sentence:

"Ireland joined the European Economic Community which essentially became the
EU back in 1973"

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matt_wulfeck
Isn't it Ireland's prerogative if they want to collect taxes on corporations
or not? It's bringing in excessive amounts of jobs (and payroll taxes) and
investments to their country.

This whole tax avoidance criticism just boggles my mind. There's a sale in
China. One person pays money to another person in their country for a phone
created in China that never left China. Yet somehow US citizens believe they
are entitled to 30-40% of the money that exchanged hands there or it's "tax
avoidance".

~~~
Oletros
> Isn't it Ireland's prerogative if they want to collect taxes on corporations
> or not?

What is not a member of the UE prerogative is giving unfair deals to just some
companies. This is what the case is about.

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rdtsc
> US warning The investigation into Apple and similar probes into other US
> firms have been criticised by US authorities.

Ha! I like it. US all of the sudden is defending Apple. Not because it loves
Apple, but because it was hoping it would get its hands on those billions ...
somehow.

EU here is basically saying, "ok Uncle Sam, fish or cut bait, do something. If
not get out of the way, we'll take that money". So Uncle Sam is a bit upset at
that, he doesn't like to be handled that way.

They will probably be various threats of sanctions from US and EU will buckle
eventually. Maybe some scheme to divide the tax penalty between US and EU
eventually.

Ireland's position is understandable. It could lose those companies overnight
basically if this goes through.

~~~
peteretep
I like the EU slowly becoming a friendly and peaceful counterpoint to the US.
Two democratic superpowers of about the same size is better than one.

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nxzero
Interesting that the US is backing Apple's tax shelter scheme, which isn't to
say that EC isn't grasping way beyond any reasonable measure of where it
should go.

~~~
ChuckMcM
I think it is hilariously hypocritical coming from a tax authority that wants
to collect taxes on income their citizens earned while working outside of
their borders. Talk about trying to be a 'supra-national tax authority'.

In some ways there is a fight going on with national governments telling
corporations to start putting their hoarded cash to work in the various
economies or else we'll take it and put it to work in the economies. In a
number of dystopian futures there is an event in the past called the
"corporate wars" and this kinda feels a bit like something you might call a
corporate war.

[1] "Do I Owe Taxes On My Foreign Income?

U.S. citizens and resident aliens earning over a certain amount of income from
foreign sources may have to pay income taxes on the foreign income." \--
[http://www.efile.com/foreign-earned-income-and-income-
exclus...](http://www.efile.com/foreign-earned-income-and-income-exclusion/)

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fffernan
Apple (with backing of the US government) vs EU. My money is on Apple winning
this battle. I'm sick of these lawsuits against Apple/MSFT. Europe is just
jealous that US/Korea/Japan can create global tech brands that anyone cares
about.

~~~
singularity2001
Or people in the EU get angry that it's hard to compete against US monopolists
'tech brands' who pay 10000 times less tax percentually.

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Oletros
Here are the allegations

[http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELE...](http://eur-
lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:52014XC1017\(08\)&from=EN)

