

Where oh where is Windows Phone 8? - czr80
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/09/where-oh-where-is-windows-phone-8/

======
freehunter
As a user of WP7 who is looking forward to WP8, I really really want to give
them the benefit of the doubt that there is a major ace up their sleeve they
can't talk about for competitive reasons. Something like Nintendo announcing
the Wii remote early enough for Sony to quickly switch to motion-sensing
controllers as well. Something huge and disruptive that is so critical to
their success that none of their competitors can know in time to ape.

I can't recall a single time Microsoft has ever done that, though...

~~~
joenathan
Direct X and a shared kernel with Windows 8 proper is already pretty big IMO.
I have a Nexus S(Running JB) and I'm going to be giving WP8 a serious look
when it comes time to upgrade.

~~~
mtgx
So far only "Angry Birds" type games have been announced as "Xbox Games" for
Windows 8/RT.

~~~
joenathan
It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. When developers make Xbox
games(Xbox uses Direct X), and Windows games(again Direct X), it will be
trivial for them to also target WP8/WinRT.

------
kia
_But what was a little surprising is that there were no handsets for the press
to play with. There were some demonstration units carefully attended by PR
personnel, and while we were able to get kind of close to them, the general
rule was "you can look but you can't touch."_

Looking at this [1] video I would say that this article is just another BS
from Ars.

[1] [http://reviews.cnet.com/smartphones/nokia-
lumia-920-slate/45...](http://reviews.cnet.com/smartphones/nokia-
lumia-920-slate/4505-6452_7-35437152.html)

------
SlipperySlope
Essentially ...

"Whatever the cause of the delays—whether they're because Microsoft has bitten
off more than it can chew with the kernel transition, or due to some other
reason—the situation is now growing critical. It's not just that it's annoying
developers; the delays are undoubtedly hurting Redmond's hardware partners."

~~~
mtgx
I wonder if the Windows 8 kernel will also hurt Microsoft's chances for ever
competing on the mass market. So far all of the announced WP8 phones are using
hardware like Qualcomm's latest gen S4 chip, which could be a way for them to
streamline the launch process, but it could also be a performance issue with
WP8 (based on Windows 8 kernel), which I doubt is as lean and nimble as WP7
(based on Windows Embedded).

~~~
jerlam
Well, targeting current high-end hardware (and tomorrow's merely average
hardware) may be a better strategy than Microsoft's attempt with WP Tango,
which targeted low-end hardware on a platform that was already behind the
competition.

I would assume that Microsoft is smart enough to avoid pushing two separate
ecosystems (WP7 and WP8) since they don't have a real foothold with one.

------
randallu
So they ended up doing (what sounds like, or may as well be) a complete
rewrite and it's taking them much longer than they expected? Shocker!

It sounds like they're running the WP7 apps in a compatibility box. Is that
right? One issue developing for Android is the huge API sprawl. Android has
this immense surface area of public API now, and they only add new methods and
classes every release (I'd love to know how the framework engineers on Android
feel about this, because it certainly detracts from the app development
experience...). So a compatibility box sounds like a good idea in that case,
though making everyone rewrite their apps isn't a good idea...

~~~
SlipperySlope
In order to use WP8-specific features, developers will need to use a new
development model. This is more friction for developers when compared to using
comparable new features in iOS or Android, where the development model is
unchanged, but new APIs are utilized.

One can only imagine the sorts of bureaucratic infighting within Microsoft as
various development tool factions seek to discard the work of factions falling
out of favor. In contrast consider how long Apple stuck by Objective-C as its
chief development framework.

~~~
randallu
Apple's engineering group is much smaller than Microsoft's (or probably anyone
else's). What's the GDP per engineer at Apple vs any other product company
(like MSFT, Google or Samsung)?

EDIT: Which is to say, I believe bureaucracy is more likely in larger
organizations and that the scale of MSFT's engineering org makes it
unmanageable.

~~~
noamsml
IIRC I looked that up, and Google's revenue is about half of MS's for 1/3 the
employees, making it about 3/2 the revenue per employee. Not sure about
Apple/Samsung.

------
Metrop0218
The core operating system swap. Taking a desktop operating system and
shrinking it down to run on a phone is no easy task. In fact, it's a
gargantuan undertaking. Add a bunch of new end user features and you get that
the amount of technical work that is going into WP8 is phenomenal. However,
the windows phone engineering team is superb. I have no doubt's that both
consumers and developers will be thoroughly impressed come holiday season.

~~~
peonies
_Taking a desktop operating system and shrinking it down to run on a phone is
no easy task. In fact, it's a gargantuan undertaking._

iOS is a shrunken version of OSX, while Android is a barely shrunken version
of Linux. Aren't all modern mobile platforms shrunken versions of desktop
operating systems?

~~~
cdh
Who is to say those weren't gargantuan undertakings as well?

The relationship between Windows Phone 8 and Windows 8 is closer than that,
though. My understanding is that both will make calls to the same WinRT APIs,
meaning a significant amount of code (and the XAML defining the UI) can be
shared between both platforms. That's a very different relationship than Mac
OS has with iOS (where the UI differences are significant) or Android has with
Linux (where there is almost nothing in common between X and Android's UI).

------
sounds
If there's one thing Apple has executed on, it's the synthesis of hardware and
software.

That's an often overlooked key to a successful customer experience. Android
has some decent hardware - Galaxy S III apparently but I haven't tried it yet
- but unless you luck out and a carrier throws you an Ice Cream Sandwich or
Jelly Bean, what's the point?

Microsoft knows they need something, but if they don't have some pretty
awesome software they'll be in the same place Android is. (Sans patent
lawsuits)

~~~
SlipperySlope
Microsoft has been crushed by Android in mobile. From a once dominating
position, Microsoft phone OS's now get lumped in the 'other' category when
market share pie charts are illustrated.

Despite patent licensing fees, Google's Android is free to use - or to fork as
was done by Amazon. This is a resounding win for Linux. On the other hand
Apple effectively gives away iOS when you buy or upgrade one of their mobile
products. What niche is left for Microsoft - even if they do create some
pretty awesome software?

~~~
sounds
Oh I wouldn't write Microsoft off entirely yet. Nokia is probably a dodo at
this point, but it would be a bit hasty to forget Microsoft's $60 billion in
cash [1]

I do think Microsoft is trying to apply PC-era tactics to embedded devices.
It's like they're chatting up that hot girl who, it turns out, is a ninja
assassin on a psycho killing spree. The only thing the embedded world produces
with any regularity is bankrupt companies; what I'm saying is, companies like
HTC and Samsung are used to an intensity that Nokia may never figure out.

Microsoft is capable of surviving in the embedded world, but they probably
won't "wake up" for another year at least.

[1] <http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=msft>

~~~
SlipperySlope
Agree that technically mobile is embedded, but mobile is more popularly
considered a separate market from embedded. For example, while a phone and a
washing machine may have the same sort of CPU, most engineers consider these
separate markets.

Do you think that Steve Ballmer will be the one that wakes up, or does the
board find a new chief executive?

~~~
sounds
I don't know if Ballmer will stay or not as CEO, but remember that he and his
good friend Gates still have a controlling share of the company.

What separates mobile from embedded won't shield mobile, or Microsoft, from
the race-to-the-bottom, cloning, and short product lifespans that make
embedded such a hard business to be in.

~~~
vidarh
> Gates still have a controlling share of the company.

No, he doesn't. He holds around 6% of Microsoft. He lost his controlling stake
with the Microsoft IPO in 1986

------
ladzoppelin
Its crazy that Windows 8 runs better then Windows 7 on the same computer. I
love it. Would love to try the Win8 phone is they ever get one released.

