

PaperKarma - take a photo, eliminate junk mail - calvin
https://www.paperkarma.com/

======
camtarn
The site could use a little more explanation. The app store page reveals that
behind the scenes, there's a database of junk mail logos mapped to the
unsubscribe page/contract details for each piece of mail, and taking a photo
causes an unsubscribe request to be sent (with unrecognized junk mail added to
a queue to be investigated). That's an awesome idea :)

It's also available for Android, which the site doesn't make clear (I left the
site thinking "pity it's only on iOS", and only realised when i hit "get the
app" to see if the app page had more detail).

Finally, neither the site nor the app page says whether this works outside the
US - I'm assuming it's US-only?

~~~
smortaz
Cofounder here...

camtarn - you're quite right & thanks for confirming our hunches. Will update
the site during the next couple of days (UI & text). thx.

~~~
camtarn
Sweet :) I'd been wondering if it was a mobile site issue (should probably
have pointed out that I was browsing from my Android phone, oops.)

Have now read your blog post, and am really wishing it was available in the UK
now - the mechanism of getting something through your door, taking a photo,
and being assured that you won't get any more is amazing... like a 'flag as
spam' link for physical items. Very nicely done!

~~~
DanBC
In England you can stop anything addresses to you. You start by registering
with the Mail Preference Service (while you're there register all phones with
telephone preference service).

That takes a few weeks but should stop most things. Then you contact the Royal
Mail and opt out for door to door. Which stops unaddressed mail delivered by
Royal Mail.

One important difference between US and UK is that anyone can stuff things
through a UK letterbox, but the US mailcan things are protected and only us
postal service can put things in them.

I agree this service is really neat and would be very popular. Perhaps if they
had a way of telling them that you've opted out and this particular bit of
mail still came, and then they could handle the complaints?

([http://www.stopjunkmail.org.uk/guide/door_to_door_opt_out.ph...](http://www.stopjunkmail.org.uk/guide/door_to_door_opt_out.php))

~~~
camtarn
Ah-hah! I need to go that then :) Thanks for the tip!

------
atacrawl
This is a great idea, but I have some constructive criticism about your
marketing site:

1) Basically, I think the slideshow is pretty ineffective.

a) Why is the first slide a picture of tree branches? It doesn't help me
understand what the app does. b) It's not obvious at all that you can switch
among slides by clicking the phone, and the slow timer compounds that fact. c)
The copy is too far removed from the images, and also isn't highlighted in any
meaningful way, hindering its effectiveness.

My solution to this would be to record a short, snappy video to place inside
the phone "frame" (which I find to be effective). If you want to use photos,
do so in a section below the video in more of a step-by-step format.

2) Your marketing message needs some distilling.

a) Don't mention saving the earth. I think it distracts from what the app
actually does and why someone should download it. You have a great idea! Push
that idea and push it hard. b) Overall, there are too many words. For
instance, "PaperKarma helps you get rid of paper junk mail and save the Earth
at the same time" could be shortened to "Get rid of junk mail" and would be
more effective. The initial pitch needs to be boiled down to its essence.

3) I think the overall look of the site isn't very polished and belies the
quality of the app.

~~~
smortaz
Thanks atacrawl. Neither of us is designer and we've received the msg loud &
clear from HN that we've got some work to do in that department! Will take all
your feedback to heart. Updates coming soon.

------
kapilkale
Great idea.

IMO the tagline on the HN post is far more effective than the one on the site.
I'd explain this to a friend as "Take a picture of your junk mail, and this
app automatically unsubscribes you from it". Things like "save the earth"
confuse me.

A description of how you actually unsubscribe would be helpful too, for the
curious and the skeptical. "We automatically contact the junk-mailer for you
and have you removed from their subscriber list."

~~~
smortaz
This is why I love HN. Great advice & to the point :). We actually
experimented with various msgs & lots of people resonated with the
Environmental angle. Here are some mind numbing stats:

1\. Over 100,000,000,000 pieces of junk mail per year sent in the US

2\. 18 pieces of junk mail for 1 that you actually care about

3\. Several -months- of your life spent processing junk mail (!)

4\. 100s of thousands of dollars spent by cities (ie, your tax money) on post
processing, landfills, etc.

& Nevermind the carbon footprint from manufacturing, processing & delivery of
junk mail...

re Description: check!

Cheers,

s

~~~
blauwbilgorgel
I had no clue what the app did untill I visited the "about" page. Normally I
don't have the patience.

The snippet explained me the entire app. Perhaps some of it belongs on the
home page.

    
    
      How does PaperKarma work?
    
      The PaperKarma app enables you simply snap a picture of
      your unwanted junk mail, press Send, and get 
      unsubscribed. That's it! Just snap your junk mail away. 
      (In about 24 hours you'll receive a notification that 
      you've been unsubscribed. You can always use the app to 
      check on the status of your unsubscribe requests.)
    

A video/animation showing the unsubscribe process could also help clarify the
purpose of the app.

Those stats are great hooks, but I doubt your potential users would need
convincing. You stop spam for yourself first and foremost, that it helps the
environment is a nice add-on.

~~~
smortaz
Dang. The general HN feedback seems to be: great idea, lousy initial messaging
:). Back to the drawing board. Thanks for the feedback - will update.

------
rplnt
Those bullets showing at which "frame" are you. You can't switch between them
manually which makes them kind of pointless. I couldn't read what I want and
it took me some time to read through all of it. Also, second and third bullet
have the same text. When the photo changed it made me read it again.

After reading through I still knew nothing. Market description was much more
informative.

PS: It should be geographically blocked on markets (is it possible?) as I
guess it only works in USA

~~~
smortaz
Feedback taken to heart rpint - changes coming. thx.

------
joblessjunkie
What's the business upside?

Once you've got millions of people uploading photos of their junk mail along
with their names and home addresses, how is this monetized?

EDIT: I ask, because this is where the privacy paranoia comes in.

~~~
vannevar
It seems like building a database confirming which kinds of direct mail people
don't like would be valuable. If nothing else, it would provide a way to
update the names on direct marketing mailing lists (for direct mail that
hasn't yet been stopped).

~~~
JoshTriplett
> It seems like building a database confirming which kinds of direct mail
> people don't like would be valuable. If nothing else, it would provide a way
> to update the names on direct marketing mailing lists (for direct mail that
> hasn't yet been stopped).

That seems like the slimiest of all possible options.

~~~
vannevar
If it were a free service without advertising, there aren't many other
options. But from the replies below, it looks like they will charge for the
service and show ads. Of course, that doesn't preclude the model I mentioned.
Whether it's slimy or not is in the eye of the beholder. I'm ok with someone
using this data to proactively eliminate ads I don't want. And if I'm getting
junk mail at my house it doesn't really matter what name it's addressed to. It
may as well be the right one.

------
ctdonath
Is the process _reversible_? Watching the slideshow, I was going "what's
this...ah...really?...hey, yeah, really, I get it! neat...whadayamean
Victoria's Secret was stopped?!?! Bring it back! bring it back! undo!
reverse!" and could then see myself in a frenzy of point-tap-unsubscribe then
realizing I didn't mean to unsubscribe from something important (bills,
magazine, fun catalog, whatever).

~~~
smortaz
Actually in the next major update it will be able to do that for some things.
ie, you can select what you receive in paper form, & what to receive in your
email box. So you can revert & say 'bring back paper V.S.'! Essentially you'll
get a dial to control what you get in what form. Will work best mags/cats/etc.

------
anigbrowl
Personally, I found it blindingly obvious and look forward to trying it
tomorrow. If it works I will give this company all my money (well not
literally you understand, but I hate paper junk mail with a passion and I hate
the USPS management for insisting that it's the mainstay of their economic
planning...idiots). This is made of win as far as I am concerned - which
probably means it's a smallish market, but hopefully large enough to make a
profit from.

Which brings me to my question: I can see what the consumer benefit is
immediately, but what's the business model if not large-scale group analytics?
Will advertising/marketing firms pay to understand what sort of customers they
do not connect with?

~~~
smortaz
Thanks anigbrowl... your comment is very inspiring!

Re Biz model: priority one is getting enough of a user base so we have a
ticket to the dance. After that there are several possibilities, some of which
are implemented already, but not activated:

1\. N free scan per month, in app purchase for more for some $. or $/year. 2\.
some non-obnoxious ads, esp for compliant companies that honor unsubscribe
requests 3\. PK is really about mailbox management: get what you want & only
what you want -- and push as much as possible toward digital versions. eg: I
_love_ Costco. But i don't want receive their catalog & kill trees. I rather
PK -- with my explicit permission/opt in -- sign me up to receive E-coupons or
a digital version of the Cotsco Shopper. At the end of the month when I visit
Costco I just grab my E-coupons or read their catalog on my iPad... In
summary: we save Costco printing/delivery costs & provide them with an opt-in
customer & charge Costco: win/win.

Ideally we'd like to push for #3 & keep the app free.

Hope this helps!

s

~~~
aridiculous
My first thoughts about monetization: 1) allow people to sign up for catalogs
too. I know that sounds insane to you, but I think a lot of people woul like a
place to go to get stuff from stores and categories they like. That's easily
monetized with the vendors themselves as part of their customer acquisition
cost.

2) Even if you just stuck to removing from lists, you're actually providing
value to the the direct mailers. They have one less printing and postage item
cost that would have either been useless or pissed someone off. That could be
over a dollar per household saved with each mailing.

------
randomdrake
I'm sort of torn by this. I really love the idea but the site doesn't do a
very good job explaining how it works or what is going on.

While it seems like you're attempting to tell a story of the process on the
front page, you're getting the user lost.

Pardon me while I take the time to list a few gripes but please note that it's
only because I really love this idea.

1) Your very first screen is a picture of buttons that appear to be pointed at
a tree, with "Take a Photo" prominently displayed. When I see that, the most
eye-popping thing on the page, I see nothing about what the app does. It looks
like it's for taking pictures in nature.

2) The phone book. Really? For junk mail? Phone books + mobile apps have a
very distinct connection. It's confusing, again, when I see you taking photos
of a phone book. Does that mean I get to import phone numbers some how? I'd
recommend starting with that original piece of junk mail.

3) Take us on the journey and let us step back and forth. As another user
commented, let us move with the bullet points. They're useless otherwise.

4) Story that makes sense:

Picture of junk mail. "Take a picture of the junk mail you don't want to
receive."

Show the logo highlighted -- "Our system identifies the logo associated with
the junk mail."

A picture indicating a message. -- "We notify the organization on your behalf
to stop sending junk mail."

Show the logo or the picture in the success screen -- "We will notify you upon
the success of removing you from their mailing list."

Let us see the life of that single piece of junk mail all the way through, in
every step of the story, so we have something to follow.

5) Since you've decided to go down the route of associating this service with
a message of doing good for the world, why not make that a more prominent
point? A big "Why?" link underneath your black bar with a popup that showed
the information and numbers you gave us in your comment
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3570470> would be a nice addition.

Anywho, just a few ideas. I think you've got a good thing going here and for
the right reasons, too. Hopefully you will take the ideas folks have here to
heart.

------
JoshTriplett
Looks awesome; I'd love to use this service. Would you consider providing an
API for image uploads, so that people could use the site without an Android or
iOS phone? (For example, using a smartphone you don't support, or just
sticking junk mail on a scanner.)

------
jazzychad
This is a great idea, but as a paranoid privacy nut I'm a little hesitant to
fork over my info to a company I don't really know. The potential upside is so
tempting, though.

Has anyone had experience with this app yet?

~~~
smortaz
jazzychat we're both extremely privacy conscious individuals and from day one
pledged our own version of Do No Evil. In fact, during sign up, we ask for
minimal info to get the unsubscribes processed: ie name & address -- which by
the way the junk mailers /already have/ since they're sending you stuff.

Beyond that, some companies require your email address. We don't give them
out. We supply a proxied email to ensure they dont get anything beyond what
they have already. Hope this helps...

Our blog has a bit more info: <http://www.paperkarma.com/blog/>

edit: grammar - it's 2am & brain is running on one core in low power mode...

~~~
ajays
" _which by the way the junk mailers /already have/ since they're sending you
stuff._ "

Not necessarily. A lot of times junk mail is directed to just the address, and
not the resident. You can tell that by the "To" line, which will say "Current
resident" or "resident". They pay the USPS to carpet bomb each and every
mailbox with their catalog. This service won't be able to do much about that.

~~~
smortaz
This is valid criticism & mostly true. Note that for most zip code or route
delivered junk mail, they'll be marked as AutoFail internally & show up on
your phone under the "Failed" tab. However, we'll provide you company info so
you call/write the company yourself if you choose too.

I say mostly true, because many companies, such as Valpak, pseudo carpet bomb
-- they many not have your name, but in order to remove you from their list
(and they do!), they require full name & address.

------
cemerick
It's a great idea, and I have it queued to be installed to my Android phone.

Q: how does this make money? Do large commercial mailers actually pay to have
a streamlined unsubscribe mechanism, or is there another customer that I'm
missing?

------
lucaspiller
Looks interesting, but yeah, going on previous comments:

1) How does it work? I can see how the app works, take a photo and magic
happens, but what is that magic that stops me receiving junk mail?

2) Does it work outside the US?

~~~
smortaz
Thx lucaspiller: some info in this thread + blog post at:
<http://www.paperkarma.com/blog>

Sadly US only for now. Where do you live & is there a junk mail problem there
if i may ask?

------
keeptrying
Can you make the "Available on the App Store" clickable? I kept pressing that
with my finger till I saw the "Download App Here" link ...

Great idea. And if it works - you guys are awesome and I will let my facebook
peeps know !

------
mvanveen
This seems like a really cool idea that I'd like to try, except I have no idea
how taking a picture will do anything for anyone.

Can you please elaborate or provide some explanation so I can understand?
Thanks!

~~~
smortaz
mvanveen, here's a link to our blog post which goes into a little more detail:
<http://www.paperkarma.com/blog/>

In short, we don't do anything that you couldn't do yourself... we just make
it a tad bit less painful.

The general pipeline is this: scans come in, they get processed (human/OCR),
the company is looked up, request to unsubscribe is sent, your phone is
updated. In 2 months we follow up with you to make sure they honored the
request. If not, we'll follow up with them on your behalf (by our lawyer - FTC
FTW).

The app basically provides convenience. We've just spent a year building up a
database of who manages customer lists at what company, who the privacy
officer is, whether they have customer suppression lists, etc. That's where
rubber & asphalt really meet. As with each scan that comes in the DB improves.

*OCR is experimental: mixed results.

Hope this helps!

edit:formatting

~~~
Terretta
I get junk mail to a PO Box and two street addresses. Most of our junk mail is
my SO's name, some of it's in mine. When I subscribe to a magazine, I
sometimes use a different middle initial, which tells me who sells my address.
AFAIK, none of them have our phone numbers.

How does this work for varying names in the household and multiple addresses?

We receive 8 inches of junk mail every two weeks, mostly catalogs and CC
offers, so can't wait to try this once I know how I can use it for our
situation.

------
curiousepic
Can you simply change the account information to, for example, help your
parents stop junkmail to their address?

If so, make sure to advertise that you can help others do this in addition to
your home address.

~~~
smortaz
Yup! We've made the Name/Adrs field editable so you can temporarily change to
grandma's name/adrs, zap her mail away & reset to yours. Next version will
have multiple stored adrs support. thx & will make that more prominent.

------
tissarah
Have you checked out Catalog Choice? They have something similar called
MailStop... <https://www.catalogchoice.org/mailstop>

~~~
smortaz
Yup. We've been in open beta for a long time (contacted some of the same
folks/ppl that they do)... wondering if we inspired them ;). Flattered if so.
We like CC - they're good people.

~~~
tyrelb
Up here in Canada we use this: <http://www.reddotcampaign.ca/>

You put a red dot (i.e. a red sticker, any sticker) in your mailbox, and they
will NOT put junk mail in.

~~~
timjahn
So Canada has this option, and a commenter above said Germany does. Why does
the US not have this?

What's even sadder is I cannot fathom how you guys have this option. The US
has literally grown up with junk mail - it's always about 99% of mail and we
cannot fathom what life is like on the other side!

~~~
rdouble
Junk mailers are the postal system's main customers.

[http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/04/sunday-review/the-
junking-...](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/04/sunday-review/the-junking-of-
the-postal-service.html?pagewanted=all)

~~~
timjahn
Which further proves why the Postal Service is not necessary and will not be
missed when it's largely out of service 5 years from now.

~~~
politician
Doesn't the Postal Service serve as the source-of-record for addresses? I
think that'd be missed.

------
cpr
Is the removal process automated, or are you relying on something like
Amazon's Mechanical Turk?

~~~
smortaz
cpr some image recognition & company info gathering(url/adrs/phone/...) uses
Mturk, the rest is automated.

------
jasonlgrimes
I love this. I was an early adopter and have been using it since release. Keep
at it!

------
urbanjunkie
I'm assuming this is a US only service - you should probably make that clearer
if so.

~~~
Maxious
"This item cannot be installed in your device's country." :<

~~~
smortaz
Sorry about this folks - we'll make it more explicit :(. Also would love to
find out which countries you're from & how bad the junk mail problem is over
there. thx.

~~~
trin_
here in germany you just put a little "Keine Werbung" (no advertisements)
sticker on your mailbox and thats it. the bundesgerichtshof has a judgement
dating back to 1988[1] stating that violation of this consitutes a violation
of your basic rights. if a company disobeyes this you can basically send them
a cease&desist and if they dont stop you can claim damages. (but beware IANAL
;))

[1]<http://www.trademarx.de/urteile/bgh_VIII_ZR_182_88.html>

