
Apple expands parts access to more independent repair businesses - ehPReth
https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/08/apple-offers-customers-even-more-options-for-safe-reliable-repairs/
======
ericabiz
We run 7 independent repair shops, so on its face this is great news for us. I
did sign us up for this program, and we are beginning the process today of
getting at least 1-2 people at all of our locations to be certified.

There is lots of good news here for us; the biggest being that we can get
official parts...finally! Although aftermarket parts have come a long way. We
now stock iPhone batteries that have larger capacity than the original. (Yes,
truly a larger capacity. We do 30,000+ repairs a year...we are not messing
around with batteries that just say they have a larger capacity.)

The biggest problem I potentially see is profit margins. AASP's have long
struggled because Apple wants to squeeze all of the profit out of their
business. If you pay $149 to get your iPhone 8 screen replaced, but Apple
charges us $135 for the screen, we can't realistically make any money off of
that.

We charge $69 to replace an iPhone 8 screen currently, so there's also a
potential negative on the consumer side of having to pay more to get screens
replaced. It does, however, appear that Apple will let providers in this
program also offer third-party screens, which is a big change from the current
AASP program.

All in all, as someone whose business is directly affected by this, I'm mildly
optimistic. As long as Apple understands that repair shops need to be
profitable too, this can be a really good thing for both sides.

~~~
ProAm
Can't you just charge different prices for Official Apple Certified parts vs
aftermarket. Should keep your profit margins the same.

~~~
McAtNite
Personally I’d be shocked if Apple allows an independent repair provider to
provide both OEM and third party parts. Their terms are pretty broad on their
application page but they explicitly state they reserve the right to cancel
your access for any reason. I can’t seem to find more detailed terms, but I’m
willing to bet there’s something in their terms that would prevent this.

~~~
derefr
> Personally I’d be shocked if Apple allows an independent repair provider to
> provide both OEM and third party parts.

How exactly would they know? Just run two corporate entities out of one shop,
with the grey-market one registered to a nearby PO box.

~~~
kennywinker
“Hello, how much to replace the screen on an iPhone X?”

------
voidwtf
I feel like this is an end-run attempt to avoid right-to-repair legislation.

While I hope for the best from this program, it seems to little to late and in
direct opposition of prior arguments they’ve made concerning third-party
repairs and parts distribution.

I feel like this will just end up being used in court to support their side of
the right-to-repair debate.

~~~
snazz
It could be, but it also seems to be a satisfactory compromise from all sides.
Customers get independent repair services with genuine parts, repair services
don't need to jump through as many hoops to be considered first-class, and
Apple avoids getting attacked as much over right-to-repair laws.

~~~
gizmo686
Except it is being done at the discretion of Apple, which means they can
unilaterally end it or change the terms once the pressure goes down. It also
means that there is still no obligation for any other company to do likewise.

If Apple was geniune, they would do this while lobbying for right to repair
legislation.

~~~
dpkonofa
They are...

Genuine question, do you honestly not know that Apple has provided their own
recommendations for RTR laws and modifications to the current proposals or are
you making some other point by saying that?

~~~
gizmo686
Link? Every time I see "Apple" and "right to repair law" in the same sentence,
Apple is opposing the legislation.

~~~
dpkonofa
This is the best I can provide, at the moment:
[https://apple.slashdot.org/story/19/03/28/1810247/internal-d...](https://apple.slashdot.org/story/19/03/28/1810247/internal-
documents-show-apple-is-capable-of-implementing-right-to-repair-legislation)

Apple and its lobbyists aren't opposed to "Right to Repair" legislation,
they're opposed to the _currently proposed_ legislation because it requires
them to make concessions to the process without any kind of guidance or
oversight of the repairs made using the parts that they would be forced to
provide. The link shows that, even prior to the Right to Repair bills proposed
in most states, Apple was already developing a framework, internally, to find
a way to allow third-party repair centers to repair their products while also
maintaining some level of quality control. Unsurprisingly, this is exactly the
announcement that was made today.

Unfortunately, I can't find the link that I was actually looking for because
any search for the info I'm looking for is immediately drowned out by the Vice
article mentioned in the post I just linked or some blogspam that just links
to it. Suffice it to say, if they were opposed to third parties repairing
their products, they wouldn't have allowed the repairs previously and they
wouldn't have planned something out like this for over a year and a half.

~~~
nulbyte
> without any kind of guidance or oversight of the repairs made using the
> parts that they would be forced to provide

I may have missed calls to force Apple to sell parts. Is that actually
happening? In any case, aftermarket parts exist, but Apple is intentionally
annoying users with persistent messaging in their product and intentionally
making their devices difficult to repair. Further, Apple often replaces
devices instead of repairing. Difficult repair in not incidental to their
design; they're doing it on purpose. And I wouldn't expect Apple to have
oversight of an unaffiliated company. It's not their business to play
regulator.

~~~
dpkonofa
Apple replaces devices and then takes the old devices, disassembles them, and
checks each component for issues individually. They take each phone about and
literally have buckets of these components that they test. Those that pass
inspection get turned back into the remanufactured assembly line where older
out of warranty phones go. It's not like they're just dumping these devices
that they're replacing. It's just easier to replace an entire device and then
have trained pros deal with testing and repairing the components than it does
to have customers wait for someone at the Genius Bar, who probably couldn't do
it anyways. As I've said elsewhere in this thread, most people aren't Louis
Rossman. Most people don't know how to do those kinds of repairs.

And yes, part of the bills that are being considered for a lot of these Right
to Repair laws include regulations that would require Apple to sell OEM parts
to third-party repair centers and that they would have to provide service
manuals to them, free of cost. Apple is ok with doing that as long as they get
to certify the people who get the manual to their repair standards. They're
not intentionally making the devices difficult to repair. Most of the
complaints that people have about their reparability have to do with their
small size or software locks that, in reality, are meant to protect people's
data from unauthorized access. Error 53 that everyone loves to point out as an
evil Apple move was actually a software lock to prevent someone from putting a
false Touch ID sensor on the device that was collecting biometric data but
still relaying the lock command to the phone. Apple's security chain in that
regard worked exactly as intended. They didn't expect to ever see a legitimate
use for a fake Touch ID sensor but it happened when people decided that losing
Touch ID was worth getting their screen repaired cheaper.

~~~
labawi
It is plausible Error 53 check is to prevent tampering with Touch ID, it may
even be a design good for security, but AFAIK it tripped even if the sensor
was replaced by another genuine sensor, hence the outrage.

~~~
dpkonofa
It's not the sensor. A security chain ( _any_ security chain) relies on the
fact that each step of the chain is verified and trusted. Moving, removing, or
replacing any part of that chain requires that the whole chain is re-verified
for trust.

That'd be like me and you being in a secret club with a secret handshake.
We've been meeting at the same bar every week for years. All of sudden, your
twin brother shows up one day and, as always, I go to do our secret handshake
and he can't do it. He looks like you. He comes from the same parents. I have
no reason to suspect that it's not you because "you" showed up just like you
do every week. But I know something's not right because he doesn't know the
handshake.

It's the same thing with an iPhone. That's exactly how you know that it's not
third-parties that Apple cares about and that they're not trying to actively
prevent anything done by third parties. If that's all it was, an OEM Apple
sensor would be fine. It's not, though, because it has nothing to do with
third-party vs. first-party and everything to do with security.

------
reaperducer
After reading all the griping on HN about Apple's supposedly draconian
independent repair policies, I was very surprised with my recent experience.

I phoned Apple last week to get the battery replaced in my 2011 MacBook Air,
and the nice lady said that Apple won't fix it because it's classified as
obsolete. I wasn't mad or anything; I kind of figured that would happen since
the computer is eight years old.

What I didn't expect is that she had a list of independent, authorized Apple
repair places at her fingertips, and e-mailed me the information for a few.
Even in the craptastic low-end town I live in, there were three options. I was
very surprised.

Brought my computer in, and the price is $180 — $130 for the battery, and $50
for the labor. Seems about right. When I priced the battery replacement last
year (before it was "obsolete"), it was $130. I guess Apple doesn't charge for
labor.

There was an interesting sign in the store. It was an Apple sign, and it asked
to be sure to provide the store with an e-mail address, because Apple may
follow up to find out if the store's service was up to Apple standards. I
thought that was very interesting.

I haven't picked up my computer yet (the store had to order the battery). But
I'm curious to find out if I'll get picked for my feedback.

~~~
devilmoon
I suggest you watch some videos by Louis Rossmann on youtube to understand the
problems with Apple's repair policies. The problem isn't with Apple certified
repair shops, but with independent repair shops

~~~
danaris
Every time Apple's repair policies come up on HN, someone mentions Louis
Rossmann, and every time they do, someone replies (and it seems like a
different person each time) pointing out that he has a significant bias
against Apple, and to take what he says about them with a grain of salt.

All I personally know about it is what I've seen on here, but it does seem
like it's worth being a little skeptical about what Rossmann has to say about
Apple.

~~~
dwild
> it's worth being a little skeptical about what Rossmann has to say about
> Apple

Sure, just like it's good to be a little skeptical about what anyone say.

Rossmann isn't a liar though, what he say about Apple is right. You may thing
he avoid saying positive things about them (but I did hear him say plenty of
positive things about them) but that doesn't make what he say about Apple
false.

~~~
addicted
Rossmann admits when he is wrong (the best example was recently on the legal
case about some other independent repairer, where he changed his stance to
Apple's side, when he learnt more details).

And he actually praises Apple quite a bit as well, in areas where he thinks
they do well, such as their trackpads.

~~~
dpkonofa
I disagree. Louis still hasn't admitted or updated several videos where he
flat out says something wrong or misdiagnoses an issue. Case in point, people
still cite his video "proving" that the new MacBook Pros have broken WiFi
adapters as "evidence" that Apple has started using cheaper adapters to
squeeze more money out of people. The reality is that they're still using the
same adapters but that Louis was using an unshielded USB-A to USB-C adapter
during that test which interfered with the WiFi signal. He's never issued a
follow-up or clarification video even after he discovered that everything
worked as intended with a normal, shielded USB adaptor. Reddit users even
called him out on it because all Dell laptops with USB-C ports had the same
issues when using these cheaper, unshielded cables.

------
dev_dull
One of my favorite youtubers is a channel named STS telecom[1]. He uses
various tools to repair logic boards on iPhones. It’s incredibly satisfying to
watch him hunt down a shorted capacitor the size of the end of a toothpick.
Then like magic the phone works perfectly.

What it also taught me is that even the the phones are becoming more
complicated, they’re also still repairable. Apples move is laudable here, and
important at reducing e-waste.

1\.
[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC39yMXOL0ubFxLWwF1RwelA](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC39yMXOL0ubFxLWwF1RwelA)

~~~
a012
Also Louis Rossmann channel where he repairs Macbooks while ranting about
Apple.

~~~
chance_state
No one can turn a three minute video into an hour long rant quite like Louis
can.

~~~
sneakernets
Louis has done so much to keep the fire hot under Apple when it comes to Right
To Repair. He's even gone to state legislatures to demonstrate why RtR is
required in the modern world. "Mad Props" to Louis.

~~~
thatguyagain
And getting his videos up on the front page of one of the biggest sites in the
world, reddit, probably helped too!

------
reustle
Look forward to Louis Rossmann's response to this news

Keeping an eye out:
[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl2mFZoRqjw_ELax4Yisf6w](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl2mFZoRqjw_ELax4Yisf6w)

~~~
rzzzt
Your wish has been granted:
[https://youtu.be/3tRq5niOM7Q](https://youtu.be/3tRq5niOM7Q)

~~~
judge2020
At the end he talks about being able to source some parts from Apple and
continue ordering aftermarket parts otherwise, but that wouldn't make sense
for Apple. Chances are they will require you follow the same procedures as
AASPs in terms of not using any aftermarket parts if you can't get them from
Apple and having to send some repairs in if Apple tells you to.

~~~
rzzzt
Didn't he say that he'll be most likely not eligible for this program
precisely because he doesn't want to give up on alternative sources where no
officially supplied items are available (individual ICs were cited as an
example)?

------
Someone1234
By logical extension they should have no objection to right to repair now,
correct?

Since this undermines the very arguments they've been making for years
("batteries are too dangerous for small repair shops," "they will perform sub-
optimal repairs even with the manuals/correct tools!").

I'm glad this is here, legitimately. It is good for users and repair vendors
alike. The questions I have is: What _next?_ Have they "seen the light" and
fully support R2R, will remain silent/stay out, or still oppose and this is
meant to placate.

~~~
dpkonofa
>"they will perform sub-optimal repairs even with the manuals/correct tools!"

This is exactly what the required certification aims to address. It's exactly
what they've always said with regard to their authorized repair programs. The
only difference is that the program is now more accessible because the
certification is free. Businesses that want to run the full authorized repair
program still have to pay for the rest of the certifications.

~~~
labawi
I believe it (should be) my right to have my neighbor Joe do a shoddy
repair/replacement _with genuine parts_ on a mass-market device, in exchange
for parts cost and a piece of pie.

~~~
dpkonofa
And I believe that it should be your right also but I also believe that it's
Apple's right to not sell you parts, if they don't want to. I also believe
that if they're willing to sell your neighbor Joe the parts to do the repair
under the condition that he does the repair according to their standards, then
that's fair for all parties involved.

Your option is unfair to Apple because their brand is damaged by Joe's shitty
repair. I don't think it's unfair to Joe for Apple to refuse to sell him a
part without certification.

------
cushychicken
I'm curious if this move is impacted by the tariff situation at all. Could
Apple be thinking that selling authorized components for repair could be a
decent backstop for declining iPhone sales to their most price-sensitive
customers?

I could see how someone with reduced means would pay to have their iPhone
repaired instead of buying a new one, if tariffs spiked the new iPhone prices
up by, I dunno, say 20% for the sake of discussion.

I hear the Right to Repair end run argument, but that doesn't seem like it's
necessarily the whole explanation to me.

~~~
esturk
Totally. Apple even says that their services make more money than their
hardware. But without the hardware, the services will also go down.

Apple need to keep people in their wall garden. There's a threshold they need
to keep at or else their influence will wane considerably like the Mac vs PC
fight.

------
JaimeThompson
I don't see any mention of how long they are willing to keep the program up an
running. If they are just using this to keep Right to Repair laws from passing
this program might not be around all that long.

------
adrr
Tim Cook realized to grow revenue, services is the future for Apple. More
working devices in the market should mean better market share which would mean
a larger audience to sell services.

------
no_wizard
Seems like an indirect response to right to repair, which is gaining some
momentum as of late:

[https://www.cbsnews.com/news/proposed-laws-could-change-
how-...](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/proposed-laws-could-change-how-
consumers-get-smartphones-repaired/)

FTC is even asking for comments on right to repair until September 16th 2019

[https://www.regulations.gov/comment?D=FTC-2019-0013-0001](https://www.regulations.gov/comment?D=FTC-2019-0013-0001)

Whether you're for or against, you should comment if this issue is meaningful
to you!

[https://repair.org/policy](https://repair.org/policy)
[https://money.howstuffworks.com/right-to-
repair.htm](https://money.howstuffworks.com/right-to-repair.htm)

------
zackkatz
Title should be updated to say what is happening: Apple launches Independent
Repair Provider program

~~~
verst
I don't think your description is accurate. There must be other nuances.

Once upon a time (2011-2013) I was an Apple Certified Macintosh technician. We
were technically considered a third party Apple-certified repair shop. I was
even able to service machines under Apple Care and had access to the same
parts the Apple Geniuses received through Apple GSX (Global Service Exchange).

My main job was actually software support and custom integrations /
deployments of our software. The owner of the company wanted to service our
Macs in-house and so I volunteered to learn.

~~~
r00fus
But that's exactly what Apple is calling it [1]. Maybe we just say they're
"rebooting" the program.

[1] [https://support.apple.com/irp-program](https://support.apple.com/irp-
program)

------
derefr
Seeing that this is coming just on the heels of increased costs of by-mail
shipping from China, I wonder if Apple has been waiting to supply parts until
they could be sure that paying for their authentic parts is the only
_economical_ option for these shops.

Apple wouldn't want to get into a situation where they're supplying parts to
these shops and deigning them an "Apple-Authorized Repair Center", but the
shops are also buying grey-market parts and certifying _those_ as being under
Apply warranty as well.

But if it's too expensive to buy the grey-market parts...

------
radicaldreamer
Pretty straightforward attempt to stave off right-to-repair laws... and coming
after years of attempts to destroy independent repair businesses. Very hard to
see this as a good faith effort by Apple.

~~~
notTyler
This and the Uber 'proposal' coming on the same day! Does the 2019 corporate
playbook say cover your ass because regulations are coming or something like
that?

------
dreamcompiler
It's amazing how the threat of attention from antitrust authorities can focus
the mind of a corporation on customer service.

------
cfitz
Glad to see this, being that my 2018 MBP unit has been serviced 6x
cumulatively (3x keyboard, 2x logic board, 1x display) and replaced entirely
1x.

I am not a fan of the time it takes to drive to the store 2x, talk with
several levels of tech support, and ultimately spend $4.5k on a “loaner” since
Apple doesn’t have a loaner laptop program.

~~~
delfinom
What? Are people so fucking nuts they spend that kind of money vs. just buying
a cheap laptop running Windows or ChromeOS?

~~~
jbverschoor
It takes 1 hour to transfer everything from one mac to another.

------
ryanmarsh
My conspiracy theory hunch is that with the upgradeability (read _modest_
modularization of a few internal components) of the forthcoming Mac Pro more
independent repair businesses are going to be necessary to handle the longer
service life and component swaps.

~~~
pier25
But end users could be able to replace/upgrade components in a tower, no?

------
exabrial
Wise move. If I were them, I'd do this on my own terms before regulation comes
down the pipe.

------
Wowfunhappy
Not entirely on topic, but if anyone can suggest a really good, non-Apple
iPhone repair place in NYC, I'd appreciate it.

I have a Jailbroken iPhone. I want a place that can replace my battery but
will not under any circumstances update my phone.

~~~
buildbuildbuild
I’ve had great luck getting screen repairs at iPhone Repair Cafe, above H-Mart
on 32nd St. - but I would still categorize it as luck. Nothing beats the
scratch/crack resistance of an official Apple part.

------
busterarm
Doesn't this just extend the ability to purchase $700 motherboards to
independent repair shops? Even if just replacing a cap would do?

Will Apple exclude stores that do this type of repair from this program?

------
alliao
I hope they design for devices to be repairable as well. I've learnt that
apple watch just aren't repairable, smashed screen is 85% of the original
cost.

------
ropiwqefjnpoa
Right-to-repair is working!

------
cfitz
How convenient this is, as negative PR grows surrounding their 2016- MBP
product line.

~~~
bdcravens
I don't think it's really growing. There was an article on HN yesterday, but
in general, the sentiment hasn't really changed that much.

------
SmileyRedBall
[https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/08/apple-offers-
customer...](https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/08/apple-offers-customers-
even-more-options-for-safe-reliable-repairs/)

“There is no cost to join Apple’s independent repair program. To qualify for
the new program, businesses need to have an Apple-certified technician who can
perform the repairs. The process for certification is simple and free of
charge. To learn more and apply, visit support.apple.com/irp-program.”

[https://support.apple.com/irp-progra](https://support.apple.com/irp-progra)

“Becoming certified to repair Apple products requires passing exams through an
online Authorized Testing Center. Certifications are updated on a per product
basis annually. The certification exam fees are waived for businesses that
have been approved to be an Independent Repair Provider.

Detailed information about Apple Certifications preparatory courses and exams
can be found here.”

[https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205332](https://support.apple.com/en-
us/HT205332)

“To pass these exams, you need to have access to the training in ATLAS.”

“How do I pay for the exams? When you register for the certification exams,
you can pay with Visa, MasterCard, or American Express.”

[https://support.apple.com/kb/HT206048](https://support.apple.com/kb/HT206048)

“To access ATLAS, you need to have an active Global Service Exchange (GSX)
account or buy AppleCare Technician Training.”

~~~
rasz
>Apple’s repair tools, training, service guides, and diagnostics must be kept
confidential.

------
cosmojg
Wow, this is up there with that hilariously tone-deaf Google blog post about
cookies and privacy [1]. People want _full_ control over their devices, both
software and hardware. This thinly veiled propaganda isn't fooling anyone.

[1] [https://www.blog.google/products/chrome/building-a-more-
priv...](https://www.blog.google/products/chrome/building-a-more-private-web/)

~~~
gruez
>People want full control over their devices, both software and hardware.

Maybe HN readers, but not most of the population. How does allowing sideloaded
apps or unlocked bootloaders help the average soccer mom? If I'm a
lawyer/politician/activist, I _want_ a locked down device so someone can't
install a backdoor if I lose sight of it for a few minutes.

~~~
shims
> _How does allowing sideloaded apps or unlocked bootloaders help the average
> soccer mom?_

Millions of people installed Fortnite mobile without an appstore, you should
ask them.

This kind of industry-wide myopia indicates that there's an opportunity for
disruption, and I'm glad EA recognized it.

> _If I 'm a lawyer/politician/activist, I want a locked down device so
> someone can't install a backdoor if I lose sight of it for a few minutes._

But you get a device that records your life intimately and is one subpoena to
Google or Apple away from making your life very, very difficult.

~~~
gruez
>> How does allowing sideloaded apps or unlocked bootloaders help the average
soccer mom?

>Millions of people installed Fortnite mobile without an appstore, you should
ask them.

That's a mischaracterization of my argument. I never claimed they couldn't
sideload an app or that it was difficult. After all, all they had to do was
follow the on-screen instructions. Furthermore, sideloading wasn't helping
them. The user went through _more_ steps to install a game just so epic could
skip the 30% play store tax. Maybe epic passed the savings on the consumer
instead of lining their profits (ha!), but the only entity that sideloading
clearly helped was epic.

>But you get a device that records your life intimately and is one subpoena to
Google or Apple away from making your life very, very difficult.

* you can opt out of the tracking/uploading to google/apple

* even if you opted into tracking/uploading, there's things that aren't but local malware can get (eg. emails, phone recordings)

* requiring a subpoena requires judicial approval and leaves a paper trail. it's also not an option for some groups (eg. foreign governments). there's a reason why mercenary hacking firms (hacking team, NSO group, DarkMatter) are a thing.

------
YeahSureWhyNot
Just another gimmick bullshit to show when opposing right the repair. Few
weeks ago Apple started blocking battery replacements in iPhones, even
original ones swapped from another original iphone.

~~~
sascha_sl
No they didn't. The batteries still work. They just wouldn't show health
percentages. Because, you know, at that point the gauge could be lying to the
user, which is a problem with buying used phones.

As an end user you will not have to care. It just (rightfully) takes a chunk
off the resell value.

~~~
Nextgrid
They took an original, new, battery from an Apple phone and put it in the same
model phone. Why would the gauge suddenly become unreliable?

~~~
sascha_sl
Because the device has been tampered with, period.

Nothing prevents you from using it as usual. It's essentially just Apple
writing "battery has been replaced by not-us, please don't blame us if this
doesn't perform as expected or like, explode" in more obscure wording in their
system settings.

It doesn't work with the original battery because... the company selling that
IC to Apple didn't design PKI into them? The critique video literally proves
this. This authentication scheme is designed by TI.

------
arkades
So... they were expecting to end up on the wrong side of congress.

------
kesor
And yet somehow I doubt that these repairs will be covered by Apple Care. Even
though most probably people don't care all that much.

~~~
bdcravens
Apple Care isn't cheap. It's getting more accessible, with the ability to pay
monthly instead of up front, but I think there's a significant number of
consumers who never buy Apple Care.

------
mistrial9
its not Machiavellian, no, we as an economic age are past mere psychology ..
Producing the kinds of non-repairable consumer electronics that are produced
for the last thirty years is ruthlessly usury of people, materials inputs,
trade law, credit, investment vehicles, tax shelters, the list is endless .. A
"right to repair" in 2019 is a pathetic joke. A product designed to be
repaired is a completely different physical device, a different business
ecosystem, a different mental model on the part of the consumer, and of course
the architects of the buying, the providing corporation.

Make no mistake, this world is choking on hundreds of billions of tons of non-
degradable, poisonous remnants of consumer goods, with much more in the
pipeline every day.

Putting lipstick on these tiny moves should be called out for what it is...

