

TED Talk: Elaine Morgan says we evolved from Aquatic Apes. - ericb
http://www.ted.com/talks/elaine_morgan_says_we_evolved_from_aquatic_apes.html

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biohacker42
Can I flag this for being stupid? OK I am instead going to use it as a
teaching moment.

Remember hacker news disease? The symptom of having a strong opinion on topics
you really shouldn't be having an opinion on? OK so if you find yourself even
remotely agreeing with the Aquatic Ape theory, do yourself a favor and
research the counter evidence, it's easy to find and obvious enough to
convince yourself.

It's just a shame that non-stupid ideas have to share TED with this. This and
that rambling talk about the dangers of robots (OMG roombas!) are so far the
worst things I've seen at TED.

Lets just hope that TED doesn't devolve from here.

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GrishaRemake
First of all, this theory is not stupid.

Humans belong to a small number of animal groups that display vocal learning.

Vocal Learning Animals have a special “language” gene ( FoxP2 ), that gives
them the ability to learn and imitate sounds they hear.

Among mammals only Dolphins, Whales, Seals, Elephants and Humans have FoxP2
gene. All of them are aquatic animals or have aquatic ancestors.

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Tichy
I think the notion of a (single) gene giving the ability to learn is already
flawed.

~~~
GrishaRemake
People with mutation in this single gene lose the ability for vocal learning
and speech. How do you explain that?

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Tichy
I would guess it is responsible for one crucial part for the "speech
apparatus", but that doesn't make it the speed apparatus. A car without the
ignition loses the ability to drive, yet the ignition hardly seems the most
important part in the car.

I feel the same uneasyness when I hear "hormone X is the cause of ability Y" -
sure, maybe if Hormone X is missing, ability Y is missing. But Hormone X does
not manufacture Y, it is just a messenger that makes something else produce Y.
Likewise I suspect speech is possible because of the combined effects of
several genes. If one is missing, maybe the system fails - but perhaps it
could be replaced with something else, given time.

Sorry, it is late, I feel unable to express myself more clearly atm.

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GrishaRemake
An ignition indicates that the car has an internal combustion engine.

The speech-enabling gene FOXP2 indicates that there are brain circuits that
make vocal learning possible.

The question is why this gene is present in aquatic mammals and is absent in
terrestrial apes

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Tichy
"The speech-enabling gene FOXP2 indicates that there are brain circuits that
make vocal learning possible."

That's kind of what I meant: surely that speech gene is not a gene that
describes a whole brain?

"The question is why this gene is present in aquatic mammals and is absent in
terrestrial apes"

Doesn't that refute the "speech gene" theory? Surely some terrestrial apes
also communicate by "speech"?

I don't know enough about genetics to confidently discuss this more.
Presumably if several species share a gene, they are likely to have a common
ancestor?

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GrishaRemake
"Vocal learning, the substrate of human language, is a very rare trait. It is
known to be present in only 6 groups of animals: 3 groups of birds (parrots,
songbirds, and hummingbirds) and 3 groups of mammals (bats,
cetaceans[whales/dolphins], and humans).

All other groups of animals are thought to produce genetically innate
vocalizations.

To understand this concept, it is important to distinguish vocal learning from
auditory learning. Auditory learning is the ability to make sound
associations, such as a dog learning how to respond to the sound "sit". All
vertebrates have auditory learning.

Vocal learning is the ability to imitate sounds that you hear, such as a human
or a parrot imitating the sound "sit". Currently only vocal learners have been
found to have forebrain regions dedicated to vocal learning and production of
these learned vocalizations. Vocal non-learners only have been found to have
non-forebrain vocal regions responsible for the production of innate
vocalizations." <http://www.jarvislab.net/Evolution.html>

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jacquesm
It should be noted that the Aquatic Ape theory is controversial at best.

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ericb
Did you watch the talk? That was clear from the theme.

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michael_dorfman
I'm in no position to judge the evidence, but I'm glad to see that Elaine
Morgan is still at it.

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quisxt
This isn't particularly new -- the theory has been around for more than 60
years.

Anthropologists certainly are aware of the theory. It comes up all the time in
student papers and discussions. My first encounter with it was when I was a
grad student TAing Anthro 1.

There does not seem to be any evidence in the fossil record that supports the
theory.

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sampladoc
If there is is evidence it will be accepted for review, if not it will be
rejected..... simple.

