
Hunter S. Thompson on Finding Your Purpose (1958) - zeeshanm
http://tranquilmonkey.com/hunter-s-thompsons-extraordinary-letter-on-finding-your-purpose/
======
AndrewKemendo
I remember reading this in college and coming away with the feeling that what
he was proposing was impossible.

I didn't know what my Abilities were and how they relate to the others around
me such that I can use them effectively.

Not only that I didn't even know what I desire aside from food and sex.

Luckily I was on a career trajectory and had quite a bit of experience ahead
of me so I took solace in the idea that world travel, responsibilities etc...
would flesh a lot of those abilities and desires things out for me.

It's been 13 years since, and I still have no idea where my Abilities lie or
what I Desire aside from food and sex.

I like his suggestion to read Sartre, though I suggest Camus instead.

~~~
Fraterkes
I think a large part of the problem is that when people talk about finding
"happiness" they are actually talking about "winning at life". Which is
impossible of course. Every time that you do something that you think will
make you happy, and you ask yourself 'is this it?' you allready know the
answer, because someone who's satisfied wouldn't ask 'is this it?'. And if you
spend years thinking about "finding happiness" I don't think there's anything
that will stop you from asking "is this it?". I think you have found happiness
when the idea "life is meaningless" seems obvious and irrelevant. If we could
get rid of the concept of happiness we probably should. As with a lot of
existential problems it is only really a problem if you know about it.

~~~
FungalRaincloud
In my personal experience, I agree, it's a misunderstanding of what happiness
is, that causes people to miss the mark when trying to find it. Happiness
isn't something you find, it's something you make. The universe is
meaningless, it exists, devoid of any reason of its own, and yet, it exists.
Your job, when trying to become a happy person, is to find your own meaning,
and work at that, until you master it.

~~~
AstralStorm
This way lies hedonism.

~~~
gglitch
In Aristotle's view, there was a meaningful distinction between pleasure,
which led to hedonism, and happiness, which is fairly abstract and depends on
virtuous conduct performed with the right mindset. Edit: if I recall
correctly. This is from _The Nichomachean Ethics._

~~~
nibs
What if pain, in the traditional sense, makes you happy. I get pleasure from
rebelling my hedonist parents in a way reminiscent of puritans. It has nothing
to do with comparison to others - I just like denying myself pleasure
(abstaining from alcohol, sugar, caffeine, drugs, sometimes sex, etc.). I get
a lot of meaning from it.

~~~
pm90
Whatever floats your boat. As long as you don't force it upon others, I can't
see why there should be any problem. The personal freedom for any individual
to live as one finds the most happiness without harming others should be the
goal of any fair/just society.

------
giis
"In short, he has not dedicated his life to reaching a pre-defined goal, but
he has rather chosen a way of life he KNOWS he will enjoy. The goal is
absolutely secondary: it is the functioning toward the goal which is
important."

I find this is quite new & profound.

~~~
jrcii
"It's not about the destination it's about the journey" is extremely cliche in
my experience, though it may be good advice.

~~~
njloof
It may be cliché, but it's still hard to comprehend until you reach a life
goal and have to ask yourself, "Wait... Now what?"

It's much easier when there's a milestone -- just pick another one.
(Graduated? Graduate again!) Then you run out of milestones and have to ask
more difficult questions.

~~~
xufi
Agreed, I find myself the same way. I end up keep asking myself. Is this
really what I want in life? or perhaps there's another avenue or path that I
could take that would fare better for me in the long term

------
unexistance
"no one HAS to do something he doesn’t want to do for the rest of his life.
But then again, if that’s what you wind up doing, by all means convince
yourself that you HAD to do it. You’ll have lots of company."

Conformity

~~~
Fezzik
Said slightly differently: "If you end up with a boring miserable life because
you listened to your mom, your dad, your teacher, your priest, or some guy on
television telling you how to do your shit, then you deserve it." \- Frank
Zappa

~~~
jomamaxx
Zappa preacher saying 'don't follow anyone's advice except mine'?

It's definitely fair to remind people that they have options, but most people
want stability, family, to watch the game, enjoy the sunset, and derive little
joy from shaking things up and wagging it in other people's faces.

Moreover - most people recognize that life is just as much a responsibility as
it is an opportunity.

The 'Rock N Roll' movement was about self actualization, but when everyone
fully self-actualizes, there is nobody left to pay the bill for the hotel room
that was just trashed.

Life is fairly mundane, it's mostly just work, dealing with people, common
things. Even for 'famous and exciting people'.

~~~
coldtea
> _Zappa preacher saying 'don't follow anyone's advice except mine'?_

No, saying "don't follow anyone's stupid advice", period. "Some guy on
television telling you how to do your shit" could be him as well. Besides he
didn't tell people what to do (even the above is not instruction, it's a
warning) -- except not to fall for tele-evangelists and politicians.

> _The 'Rock N Roll' movement was about self actualization, but when everyone
> fully self-actualizes, there is nobody left to pay the bill for the hotel
> room that was just trashed._

Zappa, for one, didn't do drugs, and didn't trash out hotel rooms. Moreover,
he worked as hard as any founder, constantly practicing, in the road, and in
the studio. He was also against BS self-actualization (e.g. anti hippy, anti
"underground", anti rawkism).

You may have him conflated with Sid Vicious or something, because his advice
is definitely not about BS self-actualization and trashing hotel rooms...

------
oasisbob
I'm away from my well annotated copy* of _The Proud Gentleman_ but this letter
has almost certainly come from that collection. It makes more sense in context
of his other writings from the time.

Another quote, from the same, which I remember as vividly as (and juxtaposed
with) this letter:

"Everybody is looking for someone who can stand up in the wind. It is lonely
standing up and crowded lying down. I refuse to be an anchor for other
people’s dreams—but then I refuse to anchor mine to anyone else."

* I wish my younger self knew the risk of loaning such a loved and personal book

~~~
NhanH
I can't seem to find that book (The Proud Gentleman) on Google. Any chance you
have a link to it?

~~~
miles
OP was likely referring to Thompson's _The Proud Highway: Saga of a Desperate
Southern Gentleman, 1955-1967 (The Fear and Loathing Letters, Vol. 1)_
[https://www.amazon.com/dp/0345377966](https://www.amazon.com/dp/0345377966)
[http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/10880.The_Proud_Highway](http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/10880.The_Proud_Highway)

------
fsiefken
Coincidentally, yesterday I attended a talk by Bernardo Kastrup on the topic
of finding our purpose in life. Kastrup is a philosophical idealist, he
explained an alternative to the existentialist view of creating your own story
and meaning in a essentially meaningless universe outside of ourselves
reasoning in part from recent insights in physics. For example:

* S. Gröblacher, T. Paterek, R. Kaltenbaek, Č. Brukner, M. Żukowski, M. Aspelmeyer, and A. Zeilinger. An experimental test of non-local realism. Nature 446, 871–875 (2007) [http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v446/n7138/abs/nature05...](http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v446/n7138/abs/nature05677.html)

In minute 38 I ask the question if he can describe an example of finding
meaning in life.
[https://youtu.be/D-EeF1quouY?t=2305](https://youtu.be/D-EeF1quouY?t=2305)

In one of his books he says the meaning of life is "about experiencing
existence, in all its angles and glory, for the sheer and pure sake of
experience itself! We don’t eat a nice meal, make love or travel to beautiful
locations just to understand or make sense of something. We do these things
because the experiences themselves imbue our lives with a kind of timeless
meaning, independent of comprehension." \-- Kastrup, Bernardo. More Than
Allegory: On Religious Myth, Truth And Belief (p 203). John Hunt Publishing.

Ask yourself the right question in the moment itself, fully aware of your
emotions and the things around you, and the answers could rise up
automatically - 'the meaning of life' cannot be an armchair intellectual
exercise he says. This has been my experience in life as well, it takes
practise to get back to the Nexus. As Dr. Soran tells Picard: "They say time
is the fire in which we burn. Right now, Captain, my time is running out. We
leave so many things unfinished in our lives... I know you understand"

~~~
swombat
> In one of his books he says the meaning of life is "about experiencing
> existence, in all its angles and glory, for the sheer and pure sake of
> experience itself! We don’t eat a nice meal, make love or travel to
> beautiful locations just to understand or make sense of something. We do
> these things because the experiences themselves imbue our lives with a kind
> of timeless meaning, independent of comprehension." \-- Kastrup, Bernardo.
> More Than Allegory: On Religious Myth, Truth And Belief (p 203). John Hunt
> Publishing.

That's an interesting perspective, but, let me poke at it bit.

If you were to be able to experience all those things you describe but had no
one to share them with, would they have meaning? What if you were in a
simulation so that it seemed like you were doing all these things with other
people, but you _knew_ that you are in a simulation all alone? Would these
things still have meaning? Would the experience be worthwhile?

I would suggest that whilst they may still be somewhat worthwhile, without
other people to share those experiences with, without a public sphere within
which to express your unique and distinct story to the rest of humanity, life
becomes significantly less meaningful.

To build meaning, we need both the private experiences you describe and the
existence of others who can bear witness to our lives and give it an existence
outside of our own minds. Yes, the experiences are valuable but they become
exponentially more so when they are part of the story of our lives,
communicated to our equals.

~~~
fsiefken
Hi Snowbat, I don't think Bernardo assumes such a simulation (a kind of
solipsism?) or is this thought experiment for the sake of 'what if'? "Make
love" as Bernardo says in this sense implies genuine meaningful relationship,
even though both persons are dreams within 'the godhead', transcendent or
ultimate reality or whatever you call this 'timeless meaning'. If so there's
still both illusions of active agents (humans who love), which are
meaningfully 'real' in the socalled "mind-at-large". Even if you were all
alone, crashed or stranded on this planet or another, you can find unity in
relationship with the environment which is 'not you'. I think you could relate
to plants and animals with love, admiration, beauty and an intense purpose.
Animals can return this love as well. Of course other humans would amplify the
meaning significantly as I think the love between men reflects the
transcendent better, perhaps mystics disagree and their union with God is
above anything else. I have no clue, but I for sure would agree with you. This
aspect is - for what I understood of Bernardo Kastrup's views - not
undervalued and likely just as much emphasized as you and I do. But it's sure
good to point it out, love gets it ultimate expression in human relations. I
wonder though what theologians and/or mystics would say about this. Bernardo
Kastrup argues theology can (and should if the ideas are true) be re-examined
in light of the implications of his thought. I'm not sure if I make sense to
you or in general?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1cHg_S3X3A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1cHg_S3X3A)

~~~
swombat
Yep, you do make sense (though I would suggest more line breaks :-P ). Also my
username is swombat not snowbat...

A great source for this discussion is Hannah Arendt's book "The Human
Condition". I find it really heavy and difficult to read but full of
incredible insights and powerful ideas about certain
features/definitions/perspectives of human life. Highly recommended.

------
e15ctr0n
For those not familiar with Hunter S. Thompson and looking to get an
understanding of his outsize personality and cult following, I highly
recommend watching the 2 movies in which Johnny Depp played his character:

* _Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas_ (1998) [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120669/](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120669/)

* _The Rum Diary_ (2011) [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0376136/](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0376136/)

If you are not already a fan of Johnny Depp, these movies should do it.

~~~
pimeys
Yeah, nice movies. But damn, read the books! Adding to those two, I'd
definitely read:

* _Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail '72_ (1973) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_and_Loathing_on_the_Campa...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_and_Loathing_on_the_Campaign_Trail_%2772)

* _Hell 's Angels: The Strange and Terrible Saga of the Outlaw Motorcycle Gangs_ (1967) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell%27s_Angels:_The_Strange_a...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell%27s_Angels:_The_Strange_and_Terrible_Saga_of_the_Outlaw_Motorcycle_Gangs)

His ability to just push himself into the situations and into what he was
writing was outstanding. He saw and he wrote, one of the best writers from
U.S.

~~~
k-mcgrady
Agreed on books over the movies. First time I watched F & L I turned it off.
Eventually I read the book which is fantastic. I did go back and watch the
movie then and liked it more but the book is much, much better. As for The Rum
Diary I'd suggest the book first because there are a few major character
changes between it and the movie and it was harder to follow the book after
seeing the movie. Unlike F & L the movie for Rum Diary is on par with the book
in my opinion.

~~~
pimeys
My plan on this week (thanks to this post) is to dig deeper into the Gonzo
Papers. Any recommendations where to start?

------
kosei
My favorite passage from this:

"a man who procrastinates in his CHOOSING will inevitably have his choice made
for him by circumstance."

So very true.

------
losteverything
Frost's The Road Not Taken, originally written as a joke, is an easy frame to
view my life, imho

"And indeed, that IS the question: whether to float with the tide, or to swim
for a goal. " is just the choice Thompson postulates.

To me, I now believe the overarching purpose of life is to have children. Two
distinct groups: those with children and those to help those with children.

Parenting (becoming a parent) puts a humans heartbeat into perspective like
nothing else can

~~~
marknutter
> To me, I now believe the overarching purpose of life is to have children.
> Two distinct groups: those with children and those to help those with
> children.

I reached the same conclusion myself very early on when it became very obvious
that it's the most logical conclusion to reach based on the evidence we
currently have about the "meaning of life". From a biological perspective, the
meaning of life is to stay alive procreate. It sounds empty and ironically, a
bit meaningless, but most of what we do in our lives that we find great joy in
are rooted in these two very fundamental goals.

Every time we eat a delicious meal we're keeping ourselves alive. When we have
great sex we're fulfilling our procreation desires. Even travel can be traced
back to those two base desires because we've evolved to take great pleasure in
exploring new worlds and relying on our wits to survive.

Now that I have two children of my own I'm more certain than ever that
ultimately, it's what I am here to do. My life only has meaning insofar as my
children's lives have meaning, and in that way I am fulfilling a centuries old
promise to my ancestors who ultimately gave me life by living meaningful,
fulfilled lives themselves.

~~~
AstralStorm
Raising children is not enough. You should also provide them a future. This
generalises to providing everyone a future as best as you can.

~~~
marknutter
If everyone focused on raising their own children properly they wouldn't need
to provide a future for everyone else. I'm focusing on my kids.

------
Tadlos

      Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone   
      else's life. Don't be trapped by dogma - which is living 
      with the results of other people's thinking. Don't let 
      the noise of others' opinions drown out your own inner 
      voice. And most important, have the courage to follow 
      your heart and intuition. 
        -- Steve Jobs

~~~
sundarurfriend
Just to balance it out: [http://www.fastcompany.com/3001441/do-steve-jobs-did-
dont-fo...](http://www.fastcompany.com/3001441/do-steve-jobs-did-dont-follow-
your-passion) ('Do what Steve Jobs did, not what he said')

------
ioda
My Journey In search of purpose

1\. Hated working for others. One day manager refused to grant hike (in
salary). Googled for a resignation letter, and mailed him the first one found.

2\. Didn't know what to do. Decided to do freelancing. Took up a project that
was too big for my mouth (read, implementing an ERP for a small retail chain)
. Took away some good 2.5 years of my life, for peanuts. But learned a ton.
The project was a failure from client's perspective, but I had my contractual
obligations met.

learning - Freelancing is not my cup of tea

3\. Started an e commerce company. Was one of the first companies in hyper
local space. But had a similar feeling that this is not my cup tea, since it
required raising large amount of capital for a poor margin business. Shut it
down after 2 years.

Learning- I want to build something organically

4\. Finally I stumbled upon a business which I truly love. It is yet to make
any money. Have been toiling for the last 2 years. But I enjoyed the journey
hell lot. And most importantly I feel I can make this work

5\. So I took some 5 years to find that one thing that I really love doing,
and that I am reasonably good at. Still the unproven part is whether there is
a 'need' for that in the market, to make it economically viable.

6\. Was it worth it? It was hell lot of pain. Getting depressed at times. But
to me there was no choice. So no regrets. I would have done the same , if I
were to go back and do. And hopefully we (me and my co founder) will make it.

Overall learning- You cannot discover yourself without getting lost. And
getting lost is painful, at times, very very painful. But some pain are worth
it (for some).

Whether to float or to swim is a hard choice. But if you decide to swim, make
sure that 'to swim' is the only choice you have. Else you are more likely to
'get' back to 'float'.

~~~
Chris2048
When you say "manager refused to grant hike", you mean you wanted a raise, or
time off for hiking?

~~~
bbarn
It means a raise. Usually it would mean a rise in price of something you pay
for.

------
rdtsc
I like Hunter's writings but I wouldn't look for coherent philosophical ideas
in it. I see his writing as artistic, very entertaining, really unique
phraseology, inspirational, stuff that really represents the feel of the 70's
in US (at least that is what I am told, I wasn't born yet then).

------
terryf
TL;DR: Finding the correct path to take in life, _is_ the correct path to
take. Cleverly self-referential, yet not impossible. Succint.

~~~
GarvielLoken
All true truths are Truism.

------
SanderMak
> If you’re genuinely satisfied with what you are and what you’re doing, then
> give those books a wide berth. (Let sleeping dogs lie.)

I find myself doing this. Avoiding books that I think might upset my current
reality for no apparent gain. It does make me feel intellectually dishonest,
though. As in, I should be able to read anything and handle it rationally.

~~~
marcosdumay
> I should be able to read anything and handle it rationally

You are not a robot. That belief is intellectually dishonest, and is only
there because of ego.

------
randomsearch
As others have said, don't look for goals look for a lifestyle.

Understanding how best to live your life is a gradual learning process and is
not really so complicated.

The school of life video on it is 60 seconds and covers the basics:

[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iUdhJ_S_z3w](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iUdhJ_S_z3w)

~~~
endswapper
"As others have said, don't look for goals look for a lifestyle." is really
bad advice.

A lifestyle merely describes and/or quantifies the way one lives.

I'm not sure how you get to this conclusion based on the post or the comments,
and I am not sure what value it provides. I think this is the precise mode of
conformity Thompson is railing against.

Currently, conformity is the common path, "the floating," Thompson describes.
It seems to me the outliers with a purpose and the will to swim to their goals
find fulfillment along the way.

~~~
randomsearch
"A lifestyle merely describes and/or quantifies the way one lives."

This is correct.

I don't draw the conclusion from the post, I make this statement to directly
contradict the post, which I believe is unwise.

A further video that underlines my point:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERbvKrH-
GC4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERbvKrH-GC4)

------
Paul_S
I was the happiest when not thinking about it. There is a trite and often
reapeted lesson there.

------
SCAQTony
"Man is condemned to be free; because once thrown into the world, he is
responsible for everything he does…" — Jean Paul Sartre (Existentialist
philosopher)

Following your passion[s] may or may not be bad advice but predicting the
consequences of doing should be measured. Life has a way of making that self
evident.

------
sytelus
Is finding goal in life so hard and complicated? Why not settle with "do
something that helps survive, expand and evolve human species"? Of course, the
deeper question is why we want to do that? But _until_ we figure that out,
isn't that a worthy goal to pursue?

~~~
bbcbasic
> "do something that helps survive, expand and evolve human species"

Sex?

------
louprado
"But beware of looking for goals: look for a way of life".

So says every philosopher that ever lived.

------
nasakin
One of the best things I've ever read in my life. Thank you for sharing this.

------
323454
Such a different voice compared to his later work. It really drives home that
HST, though seeming crazy, was fully conscious of what he was doing and
intentional in his choices.

------
amist
I prefer Mike Rowe's opinion on that subject.

[http://youtu.be/CVEuPmVAb8o](http://youtu.be/CVEuPmVAb8o)

~~~
SCAQTony
Ironic that he became an opera singer and a TV host which is just the sort of
occupations he was slamming people for pursuing.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Rowe#Early_life](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Rowe#Early_life)

~~~
et-al
Perhaps in hopes they won't follow his mistakes? Also, in that Wikipedia
article, he's quoted to have sang in the opera to meet women.

> "I joined the opera to get my union card and meet girls. I was a saloon
> singer, so I went down to the Baltimore Opera and learned an aria and
> auditioned. I figured I'd do one show and quit. But the girls were
> everywhere and the truth is, the music was really decent."

------
3minus1
He's really taking that Shakespeare quote out of context. It's about suicide
not striving towards goals.

~~~
devilsavocado
Like most Shakespeare, a single interpretation rarely does it justice. I think
it ties in with Thompson's idea of either floating with the tide or swimming
towards a goal very well. The soliloquy it is taken from is about Hamlet
debating whether to avenge his father's murder (swimming) or not (tide), and
whether to continue living (swimming), or just accept death (tide).

~~~
3minus1
you have it reversed. The choice is whether to continue being tormented by all
life's degradations and pains (floating) or end them yourself by committing
suicide (swimming)

------
paulpauper
Flagged. this site seems to be an agreegator that is intended to generate
adsense ad revenue , not original content

For example, the article on the sidebar about the 'dying man' was copied from
Reddit and elsewhere

[https://www.google.fr/#q=Powerful+Advice+From+a+Dying+Man](https://www.google.fr/#q=Powerful+Advice+From+a+Dying+Man)

We should try to link to original sources, not aggregation sites.

------
size12font
Be happy is having something to look forward to. People always complicated
this topic.

~~~
k-mcgrady
They 'complicate' it because your simplified version is inaccurate. If the
only good thing in my life is a party I'm looking forward to in 6 months time
I can assure you I will be unhappy for the vast majority of those 6 months. If
it was as easy as you say we would all be happy and that is far from the case.

------
GoToRO
There is no purpose.

~~~
fleevy
Edgy!

~~~
GoToRO
You will be very calm and happy once you accept it :)

------
blubb-fish
I'd be sceptical of life advice from somebody who committed suicide.

~~~
hsur8192
For the record, he did so at the age of 67, facing both failing health and the
loss of that which he seemed value most (his ability to write). While you can
argue (with no small amount of validity) that his life choices contributed to
this decline, his decision to take leave of life seems consistent with his
views expressed herein on being true to oneself and one's calling, and he does
seem to have fit plenty of life into those 67 years...

~~~
k-mcgrady
This quotation seems pretty apt and in my view makes his suicide seem
reasonable and consistent with his views:

"Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving
safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in
a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
“Wow! What a Ride!" \- Hunter S. Thompson

------
S_Daedalus
"All advice can only be a product of the man who gives it"

That's on a par with, "Buy the ticket, take the ride." I think.

------
ycombinatorMan
Reminder: this is a man who killed himself

~~~
yojex
Funny you should bring that up, considering the circumstances in which he did
so.

I recommend everyone do some research on his suicide, it's very interesting.
Start here:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_S._Thompson#Death](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_S._Thompson#Death)

~~~
triangleman
Actually brings another perspective to his referencing Hamlet's "To be or not
to be" soliloquy, which has been interpreted as a discourse on suicide.

------
ObeyTheGuts
This just reaks peasantry. All creatures desire power and you do all to have
more power if some thing gives you more power than other you drop the weaker
one for stronger one. Very strighforward and simple. Now peasants create this
how to do smallest amou of competition while satisfieng max hedonism retarded
bullshit...

~~~
amasad
someone read too much Nietzsche

------
chebastian
Was about to repost this but then i saw, "10 foods that most def will give you
cancer" that host page gave me cancer.

~~~
pests
The source of information is not a valid complaint if the information in
nonetheless useful or valid.

~~~
chebastian
I would argue that the source is a valid complaint, but i might have
overreacted after reading atleast one more article.

Like this one, [http://tranquilmonkey.com/19-super-foods-naturally-
cleanse-l...](http://tranquilmonkey.com/19-super-foods-naturally-cleanse-
liver/)

They actually do write in the article that there is no research done to back
up the "superfood detox" and actually seem to provide some good tips instead.
But I still cant understand why they go for that style of article headlines.

~~~
pests
The facts should stand for themselves without care who expresses them.

I agree to always check who the source is. Be aware of its baises and so on.

Still, in 1945 Raymond L. Libby invented an oral delivery method for
penicillin. Had Hitler done this, would that discovery not still have been
important or valid?

