

Apparently standing desks can hurt too - thejacenxpress
http://blog.jasonsemko.com/post/50561540728/stand-down

======
iharris
I thought that it was obvious that if you stand for 8+ hours, you'll want to
be wearing proper footwear and/or have a standing mat. Your entire body weight
is borne by your feet - treat them nicely!

Folks with weight problems or diabetes tend to have foot issues as well -
exaggerated pronation/supination, plantar fasciitis, and swelling to name a
few. There are solutions for nearly all of these problems and are highly
recommended for general use, not just for standing desks.

~~~
bct
Another option is a stool. Having the option to stand can make a big
difference, even if you're sitting most of the time.

~~~
jaibot
In my current setup, I stand between my desk and the wall. I can occasionally
lean back against the wall to give myself a break. Between that and a gel mat,
I feel pretty good.

------
willholloway
I built a standing desk with two adjustable height shelf systems from home
depot instead of splurging on an expensive adjustable height desk.

One shelf puts the monitor at eye level and the other shelf holds the keyboard
at the appropriate height.

I repurpose my yoga mat as an anti-fatigue standing mat and take my Air to the
couch or bed when I get tired of standing.

Its a pretty good system that I have come to rely on.

------
nitid_name
Don't stand on your heels! You don't have to completely move over to
digitigrade locomotion, but... standing flat footed for long periods of time
seems like it could be painful.

Keep a bit more weight on your forefoot. Your knees will thank you (more
stability now comes from your ankle, which bends left/right much more
effectively) and your calves/quads will do a lot more work.

Of course, it is useful to note that if you're used to locking your knees
while standing, you're gonna have a bad time. Expect some soreness.

~~~
benwoodward
So, wear high-heels then?

------
jfb
If you're standing, _please_ do yourself a favor and get a standing mat. My ex
runs a video store and spends ~8-12 hours per shift on her feet; until they
bought and installed standing mats, she had terrible plantar fasciitis.

~~~
marcinw
When I worked in machining, we all had anti-fatigue mats at our stations.
Everyone wore Red Wing boots (sneakers are terrible for you), and I heard no
complaints of foot pain.

~~~
jfb
Shoes are huge, yeah. You can go to a local restaurant supply store and get
perfectly cromulent anti-fatigue mats, btw. People in kitchens have been
struggling with this longer than us nerds.

------
klebba
Hi, I'm Casey Klebba from the article. Just adding a little flavor to the
story:

I have worked in an Aeron chair for most of my career. The majority of my day
is spent sitting down -- sometimes at my computer and sometimes in meetings.
That's what my job is like right now. If you're like me, when you get home
from work you go right back to the computer like a moth to a lamp. Advice
about moderation is completely lost on me because I'm a glutton for computing
-- that's just my reality. To mitigate the amount of time I sit during the
day, I built a standing desk and spent my evening hours using it. It was great
-- my posture improved and the contrast from sitting is something my body
really enjoyed. I stood barefoot on a rolled up Yoga mat thinking that it
would be a sufficient cushion. My weight is ~150 lbs and I would not consider
myself unfit -- I walk several miles a day to and from work. Nonetheless my
feet became increasingly sore. At first I thought nothing of it because I've
often had sore feet from activity and it's never been chronic. Gradually the
pain increased and became persistent through my day. By the time I realized I
had become afflicted by Plantar fasciitis it was too late. I immediately
abandoned the standing desk but recovery has still been extremely slow. The
injury isn't massively painful but it can take _multiple_ years to heal in bad
cases. Mostly the pain is a constant reminder that I am a moth.

Use my cautionary tale however you see fit, but remember that the lesson boils
down to one real truth: there is no way to avoid the health hazards associated
with excess computing.

~~~
JoeKM
> * I walk several miles a day to and from work.*

You don't wear flip-flops a lot walking long distances, do you? The lack of
heel-support is a huge contributing factor to over-pronation and probably
Plantar Fasciitis. If you're not wearing flip-flops, are you walking several
miles with proper support shoes for that distance if you have a flat foot?
Something like the Asics Kinsei or Kayano series.

I'm a runner and regularly walk/run several miles to work too. I have no arch
in my foot, but this was a couple years before I ever got a standing desk. I
developed serious foot pain one summer wearing flip-flops everywhere.

I also have a standing desk I've had for 2 years now. It's a Geek Desk, and
has a motor that allows it to raise from sitting to standing. First couple
months I definitely had some new aches and pains, but they eventually went
away. Two years later, I don't have any pains now. I don't stand all day
though, I alternate between sitting and standing, and I take breaks about
every 25 minutes.

I wonder about your posture on your makeshift standing desk. If the desk
wasn't at the correct height it could also cause problems.

Edit - Also I picked up one of these years ago and use it daily, helps a ton:
[http://www.amazon.com/Medi-Dyne-ProStretch-Unilateral-
Stretc...](http://www.amazon.com/Medi-Dyne-ProStretch-Unilateral-Stretching-
System/dp/B000GAAXGK)

~~~
klebba
> _You don't wear flip-flops a lot walking long distances, do you?_

No, I wear clown shoes. Actually I walk in various Salomon shoes designed for
distance trekking. As for the desk, it's built to my measurements and I did my
research.

In short; I really just use the computer too much. I appreciate your analysis
but the answer is that no amount of perfecting my daily routine will
circumvent that truth.

------
tptacek
As 'tzs has pointed out repeatedly on HN: it's possible, and, considering the
evidence, perhaps even _likely_ that standing desks are worse for you than
conventional desks:

<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4307722>

From what I've read, the best approach seems to be to _sit_ , but also to set
a timer to get up and walk around for a minute every half hour or so.

~~~
jlgreco
That is my take on it as well. I figure that humans probably developed fatty
buttocks for a reason.

I find that a good way to "set a timer" is to drink large amounts of water.
It's good for you regardless and staying well hydrated should keep you from
accidentally sitting still for many hours on end.

~~~
marcinw
I hear people say all the time they drink a lot of water, but when you ask
them to measure it out, it's a joke.

The answer to this problem is to sit at your desk with a gallon of water.
You'll find you've finished at least 3/4 before the end of the day contrast to
the 2-3 cups you'd usually drink.

~~~
jlgreco
Yeah, the difference between the amount of water I drink if I am not paying
attention to it and the amount of water that I drink if I am actually making a
point to drink water is fairly stunning; often up to 3 liters difference.

------
jama22
If you're feeling stiff, get a lacrosse ball and smash it out.
[http://www.mobilitywod.com/2010/11/episode-77-plantar-
fascii...](http://www.mobilitywod.com/2010/11/episode-77-plantar-fasciitis/)

~~~
stygiansonic
Agreed. If you don't have a lacrosse ball, a golf ball will also work. You can
wrap it in elastic bands (those thick ones used to bunch broccoli up) to help
reduce it sliding around.

The key is to _really_ grind your heel into it - it should hurt. My PT says
this is basically breaking up the scar tissue that is causing the symptoms.

I have gotten PF from running (stupidly did not give myself a break after
setting some PBs) and this is the one treatment that's working. Best thing is
that it can be done on your own time, while sitting at your desk, for
example...

------
stonemetal
I realize this is about his home desk but .... If you have a standing desk at
work and don't have a mat or a chair you are probably violating OSHA
guidelines for work place safety. There are regulations on how long an
employee can stand in one spot without mats or a stool to take breaks from
standing.

------
LandoCalrissian
We have treadmill desks at our office, I don't use it all day, but will hop on
it for around 1 hour usually. I feel like that is a pretty good compromise.

~~~
toasterlovin
How difficult do you find typing while walking on the treadmill?

~~~
clarkevans
I have the LifeSpan TR1200-DT5, and it's quite lovely. I get on it in the
early morning and mid-day when I'm a bit sleepy, for 3-4h/day total.

1/2 MPH (slow crawl) permits you to use the mouse reliably and keep your
shoulders level so that no one knows you're on a walking treadmill during a
conference call. This is way easier to do than just standing... I can do this
for hours without pain or fatigue.

1-2 MPH (steady walk) permits you to do reading and typing without any
problem. I usually go 1.5, and then only for a half hour at a time -- but then
again, I'm kinda lazy.

3-4 MPH (brisk walk) permits you to close your eyes and get out some
frustration when it's cold outside, take a call with a colleague, or, read
non-intensive (Hacker News) material. My knees hurt after a very short
while... so I hardly ever do this.

The lifespan's desk has a built in arm-pad that really, really helps the
movement/shock so that you can type ... even at 3MPH. If I were to buy it
again, I'd get the more expensive model though, I find myself lubricating the
track all the time and it's irritating.

~~~
toasterlovin
> This is way easier to do than just standing... I can do this for hours
> without pain or fatigue.

Thanks for the response. I also find standing to be be incredibly fatiguing
and not really a workable solution, so I was wondering if a treadmill would
just be the same thing, but with a much larger investment before learning that
it wouldn't work.

------
ednc
I find the "shoes with arch support" advise in the article to be horrible*

(*Disclaimer I am no doc, this is only based off what worked for me)

I spent years fighting plantar fasciitis, and tried every shoe, device,
gimmick and (expensive) orthodic available. I spent $1000's on this, and my
insurance companies spent even more on custom orthodics and docs. Nothing
worked, and it actually got worse over time. I could barely walk some days,
and traversing stairs backwards (this helped a little with the pain) was
pretty common.

I assumed it was just due to a childhood injury on my left foot, and I'd just
be suffering for life. But when my right foot got the pain ( only after using
all the medical remedies and prescribed devices ) - I knew something was off.

A few years ago I heard about the barefoot running trend. On a whim I decided
to try it (the barefoot part, not the running part, yet) and see what would
happen - it would have been hard for things to get worse.

Fast forward to now - I have not had pain in years, lost weight (which also
helped), and run 1/2 marathons and 5ks multiple times a year.

In my experience any arch support just helps lead to atrophy of the tendons,
which cause the pain.

My remedy in a nutshell:

1\. Before you get out of bed each day (and BEFORE you put any weight on your
feet) stretch both feet (even if only one is having a problem). Grab your foot
at the ball and pull back (gently, you're not trying to snap your foot). Hold
for 60 seconds. repeat on each foot 2-3 times. Over time you can dial this
back, but keep at it for a few weeks and you will notice a difference.

2\. Stay "barefoot" as much as possible. Walk around the house barefoot, wear
thin, flat shoes when possible (Nike Free, Vibram, Vivo, or any thin sole shoe
without a big heel - normal sneakers suck)

3\. Read Born to Run - it's a great book :-)

Hope this helps some. I suffered for years, and it sucks. Happy to answer
questions.

~~~
jstelly
For people who have experienced this, it's worth noting that planar fasciitis
can also be caused by your sleeping position. The stretching advice still
applies but you can also modify your sleeping position to remedy the pain.

------
JangoSteve
It was unclear from the article how long they've been using the standing desk
to start having these problems.

We've been using standing desks for 6 months now and it's been great. Though
we read up on it a lot before implementing, so we knew to start with the gel
mats (and they really do help). We also knew the best solution was to stand
_and_ sit. Rather than invest in desks that raise and lower (which are
expensive and seem like more effort than it'd be worth), we found some nice
drafting chairs, so it only takes half a second to switch between standing and
sitting.

Perhaps I'll do a writeup soon about our sit/stand workstations.

~~~
wbond
I've been using a mix of standing and using either a high drafting school or a
geek desk with a firm chair for about 2 and a half years.

I never have back pain like I used to and never have foot or ankle pain.
Whenever I get uncomfortable in any way, I switch from sitting to standing. I
figure this is a pretty good sign from my body that I could use a change.

That said, the first week of standing including some restlessness and
foot/calf pain. This went away pretty quickly. Additionally, I've used a
GelPro mat at both workplaces with standing desks.

------
pjnewton
All human movement is a skill and anything you "do wrong" over and over again
will eventually cause injury. I'd recommend you take a look at Dr. Kelly
Starrett's book "Becoming A Supple Leopard" the title may seem silly but the
information inside is life changing.

Here is the Amazon link: [http://www.amazon.com/Becoming-Supple-Leopard-
Preventing-Per...](http://www.amazon.com/Becoming-Supple-Leopard-Preventing-
Performance/dp/1936608588/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1368731451&sr=1-1&keywords=becoming+a+supple+leopard)

I can also help if needed, contact should be in my profile.

~~~
hhabgood
This guy is awesome, thanks for the book link!

~~~
pjnewton
No problem! Check out his blog as well: <http://mobilitywod.com>

Great resource!

------
hhabgood
I wouldn't necessarily say that standing desks CAUSE the injury, but you could
make the point that going from standing for 0 hours to standing for 8+ hours
in a single day or week could cause plantar faciitis. Maybe working up to
standing for that long, or standing in intervals would be a better choice.

A great option would be to get a treadmill desk and walk at a slow pace. Not
only would you burn more calories but you would also constantly be shifting
your weight, meaning less time being spent with your wait placed on one area
of your foot. Obviously you would want to build up to 8 hours of walking as
well.

------
oblique63
This might be purely anecdotal as I don't know the exact causes for it off the
top of my head, but I'd like to add sciatica to the list of possible
conditions that may develop from standing too long. I know for me at least, I
never had symptoms of it until I had a job that required lots of standing
around. I would still walk around a fair bit and all that as well, but there
were noticeably long periods of stationary standing too.

If you're not familiar with sciatica, it starts with a numbing of the right
leg usually, and can develop into an all out debilitatingly painful burning
sensation that can flare up at any relatively small stress on the legs. Well,
I got that, and it's not fun. I had to get some orthotics to help mitigate the
pain, but to this day I still get pretty bad flare ups if I do any kind of
stationary standing that _totals_ more than 20mins _in a day_ without the
orthotics; the numbness begins closer to the 10min mark though, so all out
debility is easier to prevent. Walking for long periods of time is fine, it's
just standing that's painful. And I stopped working at that standing job over
4 years ago now, with no other noticeable constant stressors going on since.
So yeah, no standing desks for me unfortunately. Makes going to some concerts
a pain on the ass too, which sucks, but that's another story.

------
notacoward
I switched to a standing desk almost a year ago. Didn't take me long to decide
that I wanted a nice thick gel mat to stand on. No, not a yoga mat. Something
_really_ thick and cushy, made for this purpose. (My 8yo daughter thinks it's
awesome BTW.) I have also always taken breaks and switched to using my laptop
on the sofa or loveseat for a while. It's also worth mentioning that I have a
freakishly strong lower back. Maybe something to do with slinging 40lb boxes
of books around a lot when I was younger. Anyway, when I used to frequent
health clubs I'd always push 20% more on the lower-back machine than even the
most hard-core lifter types. And I still get a sore back if I stand too long.
Just _don't_ do that to your body all day.

More recently, I switched from my ad-hoc pile of boxes to an adjustable-height
desk (Ergotron Workfit-S). It's freaking awesome. I can switch between
standing and sitting almost effortlessly, which makes a huge difference. Now
I've settled in to a rhythm of standing 65-75% of the time, and sitting the
rest, without ever having to break my concentration. It's really a lot better
than either position alone, or expensive "context switches" between the two. I
highly recommend trying it. If you don't like it, you can just leave the stand
in your preferred position permanently.

------
bradfordarner
After spending years in the military, where your profession is basically
standing around for long hours without knowing what the hell is going on, I
decided that standing sucked.

There is one general rule: get up and move around! The human body is built to
resist staying in the same position for too long. We are built to move.

Go for a run! Or, just go grab a coffee across the street. Just move!

------
mixmastamyk
Everything in moderation, including moderation.

------
stcredzero
I've achieved a sort of standing desk meta-nirvana: I have a setup which is
almost optimal in 3 positions, with only a 1 second transition time between
them, thanks to the Swopper stool. Either I'm standing, or standing/leaning
against the stool, or sitting directly down on the stool. The only adjustment
I do is to move my stool closer or farther by about 1.5' with my foot. When
I'm leaning against the stool, I'm short enough (5'4") that when it's set at
maximum height, it's perfectly serviceable as a work stool. But when I sit
down on it, it compresses so that my arms are level with the desk, and my feet
can rest comfortably on the base. Otherwise, I'm in a standing/near standing
position using my laptop on a stand. Things are optimized well enough, I find
myself shifting positions without thinking about it. (Actually, I work in 4
positions. My bed is nearby, and sometimes I lie down to think.)

------
reustle
I felt the beginnings of this before I built my treadmill desk [1]. Moving
constantly helped a lot.

[1] <http://shanereustle.com/blog/cant-stand-sitting.html>

------
geoka9
Wait till standing desks have been in fashion for some decades and you'll
start seeing stories about people getting Thrombophlebitis in their legs.

Seriously, get a good chair and sit in it. Get up every half an hour or so,
also strech your legs while sitting. Raise your toes forcefully to get some
blood flowing through your lower legs (this should be done automatically every
couple of minutes without thinking). Put your feet on the desk every now and
then.

Do some rigorous exercise every couple of hours or so.

And you should be fine.

~~~
JoeKM
> _Wait till standing desks have been in fashion for some decades and you'll
> start seeing stories about people getting Thrombophlebitis in their legs._

Sitting for too long causes Thrombophlebitis too.

Standing desks are fine. Just like sitting, you don't stand all day. You take
breaks. You move around.

The greatest benefit of a standing desk is you're more readily able to take
breaks. You're already up. I think anyone with a sitting day job can attest to
skipping breaks because of the effort of standing up. Yes, you heard me
correctly, and it's true. Sometimes you're so into a problem or issue your
brain tells you to skip taking a break because it's not worth the effort of
getting up.

~~~
geoka9
I've seen quite a few older folks who had the condition and they usually
shared one thing: their careers involved standing most of their working day
(store clerks, masseurs and such).

So from my (possibly subjective) experience, I'd say standing all day is worse
than sitting all day as far as T-phlebitis goes.

------
APB
Thank you so much!

I thought it was me, I've been working at my standing desk at home for about
>3 months now and my right foot (my left knee is a mess so my _bad_ standing
posture puts all weight on the right leg) is in a real pain.

I'm wondering if a wobble board can help? <http://goo.gl/36ZCb>

~~~
big_John
I have a standing desk at work, and started having the same issue, but got it
sorted out. This may have already been said, but if you buy a cushioned floor
mat, designed for people like machinists who need to be on their feet all day,
it makes a big difference. I try to stand about half the day with the mat, and
sit the other half. About 4 hours each, intermittently. Feels pretty good so
far after about a month.

------
aresant
“Whatever you do, do it in moderation”

An old proverb that may be, but applies too as a simple system to avoid
repetitive strain injuries.

Sit, stand, change positions.

Rotate to a different input device (mouse, tablet, trackball) each week.

Take your eyes off the monitor and stare out the window for 90 seconds every
hour.

Walk to lunch once a week, or go to a bathroom on a different floor of the
building.

Over reliance on any one part of your body will ALWAYS cause damage to soft
tissues given enough time.

~~~
LaGrange
For me one of the main benefits of an _adjustable_ desk is exactly that I can
move around, and if I think, I don't have to stand up to shift elsewhere, for
example.

Pure standing desks are murder.

------
geekam
I use a standing desk and I have never used a standing desk without proper
sneakers that have nice soles. I also use the anti-fatigue mat. But above all,
I have a high chair which I use to change my position and sit on if I am
tired. Alternating between sitting and standing is the best thing.

------
simpsond
Having the ability to control the height of your desk helps. When your feet
get sore, lower the desk and sit. It also helps to keep the leg muscles active
with small movement.

------
geekam
What was the comment about the weight gain? Does the author mean that one
gains weight by standing a lot?

~~~
mprovost
I think they meant that once you injure your foot, physical activity is so
painful that you stop exercising or walking around and then you put on more
weight which makes the injury worse.

------
HelloMcFly
I just have a stool next to my standing desk. Makes it easy to switch it up.

------
mtgx
I'm more interested in the sitting part. As more and more jobs turn into
"services" types of jobs, where you just do work on a computer, how do we as a
society solve this problem of everyone sitting 8h+ a day in a chair (and
probably not even a very comfortable one)?

Maybe we'll get lucky and Glass type of computers will be useful and
productive enough 10-15 years from now, that we can do most jobs with such a
wearable computer.

------
philfreo
A gel matt, good shoes, and a little leaning can make a huge difference.

