
Ring brings Viking, Islamic civilizations closer together - Vigier
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/ring-brings-ancient-viking-islamic-civilizations-closer-together
======
fishnchips
I'm surprised though that the ring is such a big sensation. Normans (direct
descendants of the Vikings) conquered Sicily from the Muslims back in the 11th
century. Previous to that Vikings were hired as mercenaries around the whole
Mediterranean basin and even served as an elite unit in Byzantine emperor's
employ (Varangian guard) at the time of continuous clashes between the
crumbling empire and Arabic and then various Turkish invaders.

~~~
badloginagain
I was more interested in the religious implications of the ring, wondering how
much Islam had penetrated Slavic/Scandinavian cultures, and if individuals
incorporated the Islamic God into their (personal) pantheons.

Would make for some interesting historical fiction, but this find is at most a
footnote in history.

~~~
huxley
You might be interested in reading the travel accounts of Ahmad Ibn Fadlan
(full name Ahmad ibn Fadlān ibn al-Abbās ibn Rāšid ibn Hammād), an Abassid
envoy who travelled all the way up to Russia in the early 10th century and
apparently witnessed a Viking funeral:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_ibn_Fadlan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_ibn_Fadlan)

His account is collected with a few other Arab travelogues in the North in
"Ibn Fadlan and the Land of Darkness: Arab Travellers in the Far North"

Someone created a reconstructed map of the possible route:
[http://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=e83699d...](http://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=e83699d539a048e4a78be4425896b492)

~~~
nl
There's a (fictional) film version of this that combines his story with the
Beowulf saga[1].

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_13th_Warrior](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_13th_Warrior)

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moey
Something strange I find is researchers finding it as new evidence in a new
encounter.

In Islamic history this is a well known[1] connection.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_ibn_Fadlan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_ibn_Fadlan)

~~~
pdabbadabba
This ring is an amazing discovery, but you're right that contact between the
Viking and Islamic cultures was already well known. The Icelandic sagas, for
example, document the prestige won by Norse warriors who traveled to
Constantinople and served in the Varangian Guard.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangian_Guard](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangian_Guard)
In fact, if you travel to Istanbul today, you can see Norse runes carved into
the stones of the Hagia Sophia.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runic_inscriptions_in_Hagia_Sop...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runic_inscriptions_in_Hagia_Sophia)

~~~
olavk
Constantinople was Christian at the time though. It was the capital of the
roman empire, and remained Christian until til fifteenth century. But they did
fight Arabs, so there was contact that way.

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trhway
Beside Vikings traveling down Atlantic Ocean into Mediterranean, there were
another active, eastern, routes. Even Greek and Romans had amber which was
coming from the south of Baltic Sea. Several centuries later Vikings actively
traveled down the rivers through territories of modern Poland, Moldova,
Ukraine and Russia (where Vikings founded the Kievana Rus - the Russia 1.0 -
state as a result (with Russian tzars and nobles proudly tracing their
genealogy back to those Vikings - tzars until 16th century and the nobles
until they were basically exterminated about 100 years ago as result of
Revolution)). From Kievana Rus Vikings also raided South of Caspian Sea (Iran)
through Volga river.

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arjn
I recall reading about some Buddhist artefacts found at Viking sites. That
could put their travels much older than whats mentioned here.

[http://irisharchaeology.ie/2013/12/the-helgo-treasure-a-
viki...](http://irisharchaeology.ie/2013/12/the-helgo-treasure-a-viking-age-
buddha/)

The Vikings sure travelled far and wide.

~~~
olavk
Not necessarily, artifacts could have traveled through multiple transactions
along a trade route without any single person traveling all the way. So the
Buddha does not necessarily mean that a viking traveled to Asia or vice versa.
Although it does show that continuous interactions happened all the way, which
is itself fascinating.

~~~
protomyth
That's the most probable explanation. The ancient trade routes were more A to
B to C and not A going to C type affairs. The Americans has seen artifacts
from the Arctic make it down to Central America, never mind the Pacific
islanders.

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adaml_623
"Scandinavians traded for fancy glass objects from Egypt and Mesopotamia as
early as 3,400 years ago "

And believe it or not they were doing the same thing 1100 years ago as well.

~~~
tjradcliffe
There are certain stories that remain perennially "surprising" no matter how
often they are reported on. For example, "Engineers use nature as a source of
inspiration" is still reported with breathless amazement despite every
engineer for the past century (at least) being taught to look to nature for
inspiration.

Likewise, "Companies go green to save money" apparently astonishes people,
decades after Interface became famous for doing precisely that.

And "Old people had sex and porn" will never get old, any more than "Ancient
peoples traded over the whole world".

I'm not sure why these stories get the "that's surprising" reaction they do.
Simple ignorance won't cut it, because they all get reported on so many times
that eventually ignorance would decline, but it never does. It may have
something to do with people's stereotypes overwhelming their knowledge, so
even though they know engineers are sensitive and thoughtful people or that
ancient peoples traded widely, that knowledge never "sticks" to the stereotype
of engineers as uncultured and insensitive or ancient peoples as immobile and
sedentary.

~~~
olavk
> Simple ignorance won't cut it, because they all get reported on so many
> times that eventually ignorance would decline, but it never does.

Well, new people get born all the time. And they are totally ignorant until
they learn things.

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VonGuard
Not a big Crichton fan (most of his books spend the first half explaining how
smart everyone is, and the second half is always those smart people making
terribly stupid decisions) BUT, Crichton did write Eaters of the Dead, a book
that is about exactly what this article talks about.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eaters_of_the_Dead](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eaters_of_the_Dead)

The story follows a Muslim who is sent as an emissary to the Vikings, and all
the craziness that follows. It was also a movie: the 13th Warrior. It's a
great story, not terribly well executed. The culture clash is the most
interesting part, particularly when the Muslim lead is asked to "draw words,"
because his people have a system of writing, and the Vikings don't.

I read somewhere the Crichton was basing this on some 10th century writings
from some fellow who actually made this journey, but I can find no more
references to it online....

~~~
gadders
It's based on the writings of Ibn Fahad, also posted by someone else below:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_ibn_Fadlan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_ibn_Fadlan)

And I love the Eaters of the Dead. It's not high art, but I found it an
enjoyable read (once you realise that most of the footnotes are fake).

~~~
VonGuard
Yeah, Crichton can be fun as long as you take him as pulp, not as some genius
expert on the topics he writes about.

~~~
gadders
I think a lot of his books consist of finding something people are anxious
about (Japanese Takeover of America - Rising Sun; Sexual Harassment of Men -
Disclosure; Prey - Nanotechnology; Westworld - Robots) and then write a book
about it.

Plus, he also did ER as well which was pretty entertaining.

------
Thrymr
There are lots of Islamic gold & silver coins found in Viking hoards:
[http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/middle-east/b-focus-
b-v...](http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/middle-east/b-focus-b-vikings-
came-in-search-of-dirhams#full)

------
olavk
Perhaps even more amazing is the small Buddha statue found in a grave in
Sweden from the 8th century.

------
fsloth
Yeah, basically eurasian continent has been crisscrossed with traderoutes for
thousands of years. From Scandinavia to Mediterranean, from China to Italy
(romans were fond of chinese silk). I suppose the stereotype of the sedentary
medieval peasant is so strong that notions of traderoutes spanning thousands
of kilometers being ordinary is hard to grasp.

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huxley
If you ever read the Prose Edda (the Atlakvida or Lay of Atli) or
Nibelungenlied (Song of the Nibelungs) and find a mention of Atli or Etzel,
that's actually (spoiler) Attila the Hun.

------
joshuaheard
Life imitates art.

[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120657/](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120657/)

~~~
olavk
Actually it is the other way around in this case.

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BurningFrog
The sample size in underwhelming. One single ring can have travelled that
distance in any number of ways.

~~~
huxley
Here is something to increase your sample size:
[https://www.academia.edu/1722281/Islamic_Coin_Hoards_and_the...](https://www.academia.edu/1722281/Islamic_Coin_Hoards_and_the_Trade_Routes_How_Dirham_Reached_the_North)

~~~
pbhjpbhj
But that doesn't - the authors in the paper are explicitly claiming that this
ring shows direct communication between the Caliphate and Swedish vikings,
that the woman recently acquired the ring directly based on the wear of the
ring and it's form. The GP is right to question the sample size IMO.

Your citation moves the opposite direction and reinforces the GP's statement
that the items can travel far in myriad ways.

~~~
huxley
Not at all, the parent and the article claim it was a unique item, it isn't.

There was a predominance of silver Islamic dirham over any other currency
including local varieties, this is strong evidence of direct trade with
Islamic countries (as cited in another of my comments:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9214849](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9214849)
)

~~~
pbhjpbhj
I think we're at cross-purposes to some extent. The paper isn't claiming the
article is unique [in being Afghan silver jewellery in Sweden] as it clearly
mentions not only other silver coins but other rings (IIRC) having come to
Sweden from "the Caliphate". The specific details of the physical appearance
of the ring they are claiming indicate that this item has a unique story; I
challenge that claim being entirely supported by the evidence they presented
(see my other comments).

------
ZanyProgrammer
People traded in the Middle Ages? Not the biggest surprise. And ugh, its
medieval, not ancient.

~~~
olavk
In Scandinavian historiographic tradition the Middle Ages is counted from the
arrival of Christianity. Being the the 8th century, the find is from the
Viking Age which is earlier.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
From the abstract of the paper itself:

>"an Arabic finger ring, which was found in a 9th c. woman's grave" //

Which by your definition makes this mediaeval, as the GP states.

~~~
olavk
No, according to my definition 9th century is Viking Age. Scandinavian
medieval period starts around year 1000 with christianization. Of course these
labels are more or less arbitrary. In western Europe, the medieval times are
sometimes counted from the fall of the western roman empire, and in that case
9th century is clearly medieval. I believe this is the tradition in England.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Ah, OK, I stand corrected. Your error in saying '8th Century' confused
suggested you were saying 'as it's 8th and not 9th century.

In Scandinavia is it considered that the Viking age and mediaeval period don't
overlap at all? Is there a specific event that marks the start of the
mediaeval period - you mentioned Christianisation, perhaps the arrival of an
evangelist (aka saint)?

Of course the ring could be C8 - I wonder if they can date it with reference
to the comparison of the composition with coins with a known date [though I
guess that only gives an upper bound as the silver used in the coins could
have been mined much earlier].

------
AaronLasseigne
Hmm, a ring binding two cultures together. Do words appear on it when placed
in fire?

~~~
gaius
Yep just like JK Rowling said in Game of Thrones, one ring to rule them all
and in the darkness blind them.

~~~
saraid216
The language it's written in is Assail, too.

