

I wanted to work at Apple really bad, and now not so much. - HectorRamos
https://medium.com/apple-daily/f5f8c807d868

======
jhight
I'm sorry to be the adult here, but this is a really childish way to handle
what amounts to a problem with your supervisor. There are ways to deal with
this that don't involve jeopardizing your (and your contracting firm's) image
and then throwing a temper tantrum online.

Other than the shitty boss, the other problems were silly (hours, commute,
meetings). Were you really surprised by the commute? This is something you
should've known beforehand.

Some jobs suck, either try to fix it or leave. But don't act like a baby.

------
zellyn
Wow. You had me thinking, "If you had a bad experience at Apple, I should look
you up and invite you to interview here where I work."

Right up until the part where you walked out without trying to talk to your
boss, your boss's boss, or your contracting company.

Whether you leave should be a reflection on the work environment. How you
leave should be a reflection on you. Better luck next time - perhaps something
less corporate?

~~~
badman_ting
Did anyone else notice how his leaving without notice was unprofessional, but
none of what led up to that decision is being labeled unprofessional?

Yeah, it's funny how that works.

~~~
thekevan
That's probably because they read the whole article. In my opinion, walking
out on a job without giving notice denotes a lack of judgement. So immediately
I wonder if those "insults" from the boss really were insults.

He also complained about the commute and the long hours, but he knew about
those and agreed to them before taking the job.

Finally, he makes no mention of trying to speak with HR or the agency that got
him the job to resolve the problem. In fact he makes no mention of trying to
resolve the problem. Granted he was contract and claimed those who were on
contract and rocked the boat faced reprisals, but if you get to the point
where you are ready to quit, who cares? try and make it better and if it gets
worse, leave like you were going to do anyway.

~~~
latj
No designer walks out on Apple lightly. But sometimes things are bad enough
that you can tell you arent in the right place.

------
ronaldx
Wow.

There are a lot of negative comments that I find surprisingly imbalanced in
how they view the employer-employee relationship.

Employers have the balance of power in almost any working relationship, and
should take some responsibility in creating satisfactory employment
conditions. Allowing bad management to mishandle employees is an abuse of that
power. If a new employee doesn't choose to speak to HR, it's most likely
because HR are doing a crap job of making new employees aware of what support
they offer, if any.

Apple (the company) certainly wouldn't think for one second about breaching
contracts where the benefit outweighed the risk of legal consequences. We
might say "that's just business". So, why should you personally care about
breaching contracts if turning up to work has such a strongly negative effect
on your life?

I personally want to say to this guy: well done, you did the right thing for
yourself. Find yourself better employment.

Sorry that this job didn't work out, and I'm sorry it was so bad that you felt
you had to take a (small, temporary) hit to your reputation, but if you needed
to get out of there so bad, it was worth it: best of luck for the future :)

~~~
andrewfelix
There might not be so many negative comments if the author had done a better
job of defining what was so bad.

What exactly was the producer saying? No examples given. Why didn't he even
attempt to speak to HR? No reason given. What did his co-workers say about the
situation? What was the catalyst for walking out on that particular day? ie.
Why not take a day off to consider options?

I had to make a lot of assumptions to fill in the blanks.

From the information given, it sounds like he didn't like his producer and
wasn't happy about the commute. Neither of which is remarkable.

~~~
pm24601
He did ... insults, extreme micromanaging, etc.

~~~
andrewfelix
Never cited explicit examples or quotes.

~~~
pm24601
Yawn. Really that is the best you can offer?

He did. He cited examples of the boss micromanaging him and how that occurred.
Where you there? How would extra juice detail validate his case? How would you
know that he didn't make up the detail? Do you demand voice recordings?

~~~
andrewfelix
Good job contradicting yourself.

I'm sure there's a subreddit out there somewhere where you'd fit in
beautifully. Best of luck. :)

------
mullingitover
If he had valid cause to walk out, surely he could've gone to HR with his
grievances against his boss? Since we're only getting one side of the story
here, I have no way of knowing what parts of his story are true and what's
been embellished. The story we're hearing is that a guy's boss was a jerk, but
what if he himself was being an insufferable diva and his boss had no
intention of renewing his contract for that reason?

For some reason I don't feel like Apple suffered a great loss here.

~~~
bsder
> If he had valid cause to walk out, surely he could've gone to HR with his
> grievances against his boss?

BWHAHAHAHAHAHA! <sniff> Ah, you youngsters ... I needed a good laugh.

HR works for the company. Their goal is to keep the company out of legal hot
water. Any other goal is secondary--solving employee problems doesn't even
register.

Should he have stuck it out? Yeah, probably, but there are some bosses that
are beyond unacceptable--and the boss was likely to shaft him on a review if
he is that bad.

Yes, he should have talked to the contracting company before doing this. That
way they would have known to steer their folks clear of that asshole boss--and
they could have probably gotten his contract reassigned.

~~~
jads
If that's your view of HR and what your company's HR department is like, I
pity you.

HR is certainly working for the company, but the whole point is that they help
mediate issues to avoid litigation. In order to do this, they need to provide
as much assistance to employees as possible. In fact, it's in the company's
best interest for their HR department to offer as much help as possible to
employees.

If a HR department just brushed off complaints, it could be catastrophic for
the company if that employee took legal action.

Your view of HR is extremely narrow.

~~~
pm24601
Nope it is extremely factual. HRs job is to protect the company from stupid
lawsuits and labor law violations. HR is not an employee advocate.

------
gaius
Never, ever take "prestige" instead of pay. Because prestige is only worth
anything if you can cash it in. So what does this mean, it means the sort of
people attracted to "prestigious" companies are only there to get their
tickets punched so they can get a more lucrative job elsewhere in a year or
two. That creates a weird dynamic.

------
segmondy
I see people saying he should have given two weeks. Why? Companies don't give
you 2 weeks notice when they fire you or lay you off. With that said, he
should have talked to his boss. You are an adult. Yes, tell him that you don't
find his jokes funny. It could be that he's trying to be funny without being
insulting. If it continues then you can say for sure that the guy is an
asshole. He handled it badly by not communicating. After talking to his boss,
he could have reported him to HR. He could have also sort for openings in
other departments. Two wrongs don't make a right, but I don't think his not
giving 2 weeks is a wrong. The only reason I would give 2 weeks is that I'm in
the middle of a project that my leaving will disrupt. However, should I be
very uncomfortable and after having escalated my issue to the proper channels
and no response? I would quit on the stop. Life is too short to be afraid of a
big company. Quitting is your way of firing the company especially if you are
of value. Good employees don't leave companies for the most part, they tend to
leave bad management.

~~~
watwut
He wrote also this "My coworkers that stood their ground and set boundaries
seemed to end up on a shit list of sorts and were out of the inner circle of
people that kissed the producer’s ass."

So, I do not think it was a case of misunderstanding.

------
swampangel
While I understand that nobody should have to work for a boss like that, I
don't understand why he didn't give two weeks' notice.

He would have gotten out of there quickly enough without damaging any other
relationships and, being on a term contract, there's a good chance he would
have been asked to leave immediately anyway.

~~~
rpedela
I think he was trying to make a statement. I agree in the long-term what you
suggest is better, but I also understand the short-term impulse to say "fuck
you" with action.

------
antoniuschan99
I don't think walking out like that is professional. Sure, some companies can
their employees without a notice, but that is not professional too.

You definitely should've spoken with either his supervisor, or even the
recruiting company. Apple is a large entity, and even though you didn't enjoy
the meetings or the commute, fact is that's how they operate there.

I've had bosses who were like that and worse. One boss would shake my chair
when I'm working just to get my attention.

------
jtchang
Maybe it is the writing style but I find the author self entitled.

If you take a job and it turns out it isn't what it seems you don't resolve
anything by just walking out. Being impulsive rarely gets you anywhere.

That said I've heard from friends that the working environment at Apple is
tough.

------
beatrix_kiddo
Speaking under anonymity, as I'm currently employed by Apple. I want to state
that my opinions are mine and mine alone, and form from my experiences with
the company.

This guy is an unprofessional whiner, and I would never consider hiring him.

Short list of what annoys me from his article:

\- He was hired as a contractor under the retail division, but his
overbragging would lead you to believe otherwise.

\- As soon as he was picked up as a contractor, he goes and updates everything
to allude that he's employed by Apple. As someone who spent my first years
also as a contractor (I've since been hired), this is incredibly
unprofessional and against the code of ethics. At Apple you learn that you're
part of a team, that you are just one piece of the greater picture, so to brag
so much when you are such a small and new piece, is incredibly conceited. I
would have never let him work on anything secret or prolific - he seems like
the guy who would hog all the credit.

\- As someone who contracted for over a year, if I had misgivings about my
manager, I would have spoken up. If I couldn't have gained the courage to talk
with the manager directly, I would have gone to his superiors, or to at least
the contact person at the contracting agency. From my experience, Apple's
management hierarchy is built to facilitate things like this. I'm sure his
boss's boss was around, and all he had to do is speak up if he really had such
strong grievances about his treatment.

\- I find it hard to believe that he was really worked that hard.
Additionally, if he had such strong reservations about wanting to have normal
work hours and being home at an early hour, he should not have picked a job
that required a 45+ minute commute.

So not only does this guy quit in a wholly unprofessional manner, but now he
has the audacity to go all over the Internet to whine about it.

Good luck finding a new job, buddy, at least you have good design chops. But I
can't see any corporate company wanting to hire him after this, and I can't
imagine he'd have better work hours at a startup.

------
mikeleeorg
One of the top reasons that people leave a company is their direct supervisor.
Even a good company culture and great pay can be overturned by a difficult
boss.

The takeaway for entrepreneurs is - hire your managers very carefully, and
promote your staff into management roles very, VERY carefully. Just because
someone is a great developer/designer/marketer/product manager, does not mean
they will make a great manager.

~~~
snowwrestler
And the takeaway for employees is: give your employer a chance to solve your
problem. Don't assume that everyone knows and intentionally tolerates the bad
behavior that is bothering you.

~~~
pm24601
Nope. Life is too short. As he pointed out it was taking away from what he
discovered he really wanted: a family life.

------
protomyth
He really needed to talk to his contracting company and tell them what was
going on. They generally will be able to help or at least extract you with a
minimum of professional destruction.

On a secondary level, someone needs to step up and tell the next level about
this type of boss. They probably won't listen, but this boss is hurting others
and someone needs to push the first domino.

------
mergy
Bad bosses are everywhere. Two weeks notice would have been a better way to
go. People quit companies because of bad bosses. If he didn't even talk to HR
or escalate anything, then shame on him. His impact will be minimal and
everyone will move on instead of solving the larger issue.

~~~
pm24601
why bother? It was clear that the boss was considered excellent by the
company.

I would have not bothered to send the email that is my only feedback.

~~~
andrewfelix
_" Silence encourages other bad behavior and contributes to a toxic
atmosphere."_

Sound familiar?

It should. That's a quote from one of your previous comments.

~~~
pm24601
Sending a parting shot to someone who doesn't care is not breaking the
silence. The boss just deletes the email and points to it as proof that Jordan
was a bad fit, such an email is a waste of energy and a weapon to be used
against the sender

------
jads
While I'm sure he thought it was a story worth telling, walking out without
making any attempt at reconciliation was just unprofessional.

What's worse, potential clients are going to Google his name, find this and
then wonder if he'll bail on a project as well.

------
supergeek133
People don't quit jobs, they quit bosses in most cases.

------
rdl
I've heard a lot about Apple's internal secrecy, and culture of working very
hard, but I really hope this horrible boss was an outlier.

~~~
beatrix_kiddo
I've worked with multiple teams in multiple divisions, and I've never
experienced a manager like the one described. In fact, Apple has had the most
professional managers I have ever had the experience of working with.

~~~
rdl
I've known both a few utter tools at Apple (who got forced out) and a few
people currently there (who are amazing).

I guess what I'm most interested in is: does Apple have a way to get rid of
bad managers? Amazon doesn't seem to, from what I've heard, and Google has
some who become "politically entrenched" and thus hard to eliminate. "Only
have great managers" is probably an impossible goal, but some kind of
correction process is both necessary and probably a reasonable thing to
implement.

~~~
beatrix_kiddo
I'll admit in the corporate world it's a slow process to weed out any bad
apples (pun not intended), but it does happen. There's accountability on every
level.

I knew of a manager who wasn't very good, and once his directs escalated the
issue, it was only a month or so until he was out the door.

There's also a sort of probation bad employees can be placed under, but I hear
once you're in that boat, it's nearly impossible to get out from it.

------
watershawl
I can understand why he didn't put in notice. Who wants to work 2 weeks under
a boss that already treats you badly once they know you're leaving? That would
be miserable, and for some people, the shame of leaving without notice is less
than the pain from facing that manager for another two weeks.

~~~
DanBC
Working your notice is not about a oiding shame but about avoiding lawsuits
for breach of contract.

------
codezero
I wonder how much of this tension was caused by going through an agency versus
being a direct hire. The very short interview and subsequent time locked
contract seem bad.

~~~
mjolk
It seems like most of the tension was caused by having a terrible boss.

~~~
codezero
They may have matched him with someone different after a full interview loop
though. Did he even interview with or meet his manager before accepting or
starting?

------
selimthegrim
This sounds remarkably like my brief experience as a contract Java dev for a
certain large semiconductor company in the Portland area.

------
dfraser992
The only thing that matters is what his contract contained in the way of the
notice. "Two weeks notice" is quite obsolete these days, given how companies
treat workers anymore. If it isn't in the contract, then to hell with that and
any idea about "treating a company with respect" or some of the naive stuff
people are commenting on. Respect runs both ways.

"Two weeks" was de rigueur when I started my career - but I am old and the
social environment or relationship between capital and labor has changed
dramatically in the 25 years I've been in IT. Companies will do whatever they
can get away with, even if it might be illegal-ish, and especially if it is a
badly run company run by jackasses. Apple... well, I would never take a paycut
just to work at Apple; I understand his enthusiasm, and the chance to get
"Apple" on your resume, but if the situation was as intolerable as he says,
then I certainly wouldn't say "tough it out"

Also, the logic behind two weeks notice was that payroll, in the old days, was
two weeks behind the time you've currently spent on the job. So you had to
stick around for two weeks to let that catch up (and wrap up projects,
transfer knowledge, etc). Logically, at this point, you'd take your unused
vacation. That logic doesn't apply anymore - and also contract workers are
different than full time employees, so the rules are different.

But he should have spoken to HR at least, or some other boss, if only to get
it down on paper exactly why he was going to leave - at least to prevent them
from claiming damages or such due to his unexpected departure.

------
cordite
I am reading Peopleware right now. This really sets the boss to be the worst
of the worst.

------
michaelwww
It seems like every organization practices some sort of hazing or 'bootcamp'
techniques for new people. It's a way of testing people out to see how they
react and it also seems to be human nature to do so. He didn't pass the test
so some other contractor will get hired full-time.

~~~
epoxyhockey
_It seems like every organization practices some sort of hazing or 'bootcamp'
techniques for new people. It's a way of testing people out to see how they
react and it also seems to be human nature to do so._

No, it is not normal for an organization to haze new hires and I am sorry if
that is the only behavior you have ever experienced in your career. If you
ever find yourself in that kind of environment, you need to transfer to
another department or leave the organization. In the case of legal harassment,
you may report the individual to HR, even if you are a contractor.

Under proper management, new hires are treated like gold. They are, after all,
the future of an organization. New hires would be raised like they were part
of a family and an abundance of good will should be provided.

~~~
lutusp
> No, it is not normal for an organization to haze new hires ...

It's a common phenomenon, and "normal" is a problematic criterion in any case.
If by consensus people deem it useful as part of a spectrum of acceptable
behaviors, then an appeal to "normal" loses all meaning.

I agree with you that people who find it upsetting or demeaning should leave,
but by doing so they may pass up an opportunity to change the world. Not all
human breakthroughs are accompanied by everyone behaving according to the
strictest standards of decorum. Just ask an astronaut -- I'm sure she'll
agree.

------
andrewfelix
This isn't about Apple. This is about a shitty commute and a bad producer.

------
pm24601
Excellent. Apple needs to lose more people to get the message.

------
badman_ting
I remember realizing in the mid-2000s how much I liked the things Apple made
(still do), but would never want to work there. There are reasons why the
things they make are so nice.

I deduct no points for his walking out without notice. Somehow, I think they
will be okay.

