
Life as a Nonviolent Psychopath (2014) - jonathanjaeger
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/01/life-as-a-nonviolent-psychopath/282271/?single_page=true
======
evincarofautumn
I naturally have pretty low empathy, and mild narcissistic, manipulative, and
impulsive tendencies. But I recognised in my teens that those traits were
going to do me more harm than good if I let them get away from me, so I sought
to change myself and open up more. Now even though there might be a cold core
to my personality, it’s surrounded by a deep layer of warmth that I’ve
cultivated over time because I just _want_ to, maybe because I have a loving
and supportive family.

Am I a psychopath? Nah, but probably somewhere on the “spectrum” if you like.
It could be undiagnosed ASD or adult ADD or any number of other things. But I
don’t think that’s even necessarily the right question. All that matters is
the reality of living with the mind you’ve got; being labelled with a
“condition” just gives you some finer instruments like therapy and medication
to help accomplish that.

~~~
billyjobob
I used to think I had changed in the same way you did. Now I realize that the
majority of (male) teenagers are narcissistic, manipulative and impulsive.
Fortunately most of them grow out of it sometime in their 20s. See "A
Clockwork Orange".

~~~
evincarofautumn
Sure, those are normal teenage things to some extent. Externally, there’s not
much difference between actually not caring, and _acting_ like you don’t care
or just failing to consider consequences because you’re high on testosterone
or whatever.

------
Tomminn
I'm not sure a having a brain scan that shows you're chronically
underutilizing your empathy centre makes you a psychopath. I'm sure Elon
Musk's brain scan would look similar to the writer's. If we are going to
continue use the word as a synonym for "human to avoid at all costs", it's
about being an unrepentant predator of other humans.

To conflate psychopath with hardcore -NTJ is to demonize hardcore -NTJ's,
which can actually be a very valuable flavor of human for society. We should
judge people by their impact crater, not by the perculiarities of their brain
scans.

If you look at the psychopathy questionnaires, they have a heavy focus on the
unrepentant predator side of things (e.g.
[https://openpsychometrics.org/tests/LSRP.php](https://openpsychometrics.org/tests/LSRP.php)).
The author does not sound like an unrepentant predator, so I think without the
benefit of seeing his brain scan, few psychologists/psychiatrists would
diagnose him as a psychopath.

~~~
exolymph
> I'm sure Elon Musk's brain scan would look similar to the writer's.

Why are you sure of that?

~~~
Tomminn
You're right that "sure" is too strong a word- I should have said "I have a
hunch".

The hunch is because stories like this [https://www.quora.com/What-is-known-
about-Elon-Musks-long-ti...](https://www.quora.com/What-is-known-about-Elon-
Musks-long-time-assistant-Mary-Beth-Brown) about Elon Musk are not uncommon.

------
psyc
Whenever I try to research this subject, I just give up for the vagueness,
lack of consensus, and general lack of solid information. I'm sure there's
some out there - I just can't find it on the Internet. In particular, I'm
always frustrated about 'psychopaths' (empathy-lacking, narcissistic,
manipulative) being wholly lumped in with violent predators (serial killers,
who seem to get visceral gratification from hunting and physically destroying
other humans).

~~~
Viliam1234
It's frustrating how so many people redefine "psychopath" just to make a
stronger statement about someone they don't like. When everyone is a
"psychopath", no one is. If the word is supposed to mean something, it needs a
narrower definition.

There are many mental disorders. Psychopathy is just one of them. Not every
crazy person is a psychopath; not everyone who harms others is a psychopath.
Psychopathy is a specific type of a disorder, not an umbrella term for
"everything I dislike".

The best book I found on this topic is "The Psychopath Code" by Pieter
Hintjens.

In real life, I met 2 people I would bet are psychopaths, in the clinical
meaning of the word. I won't try to provide a short description, because short
descriptions are not good enough to explain; if you didn't have the same kind
of experience, you would probably just round the words to something else you
are already familiar with.

A real psychopath is something like a spider in a human skin, with very good
human-role-playing abilities. Your first experience is most likely going to be
"this is a charming person". Only after longer interaction you will
unconsciously start noticing patterns that feel somehow weird. But when you
express doubt, there is always a good explanation and you will feel guilty for
doubting afterwards. Only when they attack you, you will find yourself in a
conflict with a non-human intelligence. And then you know that if you try to
explain to someone who didn't have the same experience, they will never
understand.

Psychopaths seem like masters of manipulation, so it makes sense to ask why
this doesn't translate into a huge evolutionary advantage: why they don't
already make 100% of the population. But it seems like an important part of
their charm is being unknown. When you meet your first psychopath, they can
manipulate you as they wish, because you have no idea what you are interacting
with. Meet the second or the third one, however, and you have a chance to
recognize the pattern. So when they exceed some fraction of the population,
normies probably learn to recognize them and start killing them. But when they
become rare again, they again get the advantage of being unknown.

A psychopath is simply a person who only has a certain subset of human
emotions. That doesn't define what they will do; just like being a
neurotypical humans does not define how one behaves. It just makes certain
predatory behaviors more likely, because it removes some reasons not to do
them (such as empathy) and adds some skills, such as being a better liar
(humans are usually quite bad at lying, because they unconsciously display
little signs of their emotions; but this does not happen when you simply do
not have that kind of emotion).

~~~
rsp1984
_But when you express doubt, there is always a good explanation and you will
feel guilty for doubting afterwards._

This.

I think it's important to emphasize that those "good explanations" are usually
lies, as lies are at the foundation of all the harm that psychopaths cause.

Normal people avoid lying if possible, psychopaths on the other hand are
master liars and they make use of lies just whenever a lie serves them better
than the truth.

The manipulation tactics that psychopaths use to reach their goals are also
just based on lies. You can't be manipulated if you don't believe the lies. Of
course psychopaths will primarily serve you lies that you _want_ to believe
but that doesn't make them more truthful.

Bottom line, if you want to stay safe from psychopaths, keep it like Reagan:
"Trust but verify". And at the first sign of things not adding up, end the
relationship and any contact.

~~~
taneq
> And at the first sign of things not adding up, end the relationship and any
> contact.

How about 'at the first _proof_ of things not adding up'? Verification works
both ways. If an isolated incident smells funny but checks out on
investigation then maybe it was just a misinterpretation.

~~~
psyc
No thanks. I learned a long time ago that people always tell me who they are
right away, in jest. I learned somewhat later to take them at their word.

~~~
taneq
Not always, but often. And I agree, it's usually wise to listen to someone if
they warn you about themselves.

------
larrik
Is it normal for every paragraph to have a different font size? Or is that
just me?

~~~
titanomachy
Yeah I see that as well, probably a consequence of their archiving process or
something... (article is 2014)

~~~
craftyguy
Or, it's what a nonviolent psychopath would to.

~~~
donquichotte
I am not sure this can be considered nonviolent.

On Mozilla, I recommend to use Reader Mode.

------
eDISCO
Previous discussion on HN about this article:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7166207](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7166207)

------
nemo1618
(The late, great) Pieter Hintjens wrote a short book about psychopaths, which
I found fascinating. It's available for free on his site:
[http://hintjens.com/blog:_psychopaths](http://hintjens.com/blog:_psychopaths)

------
wallflower
I was at a dinner recently where a grandmother was discussing her
granddaughter. The grandmother was discussing her because it is something they
worry about. She's beautiful, smart, and a sociopath. They try to find
alternative schooling for her but she keeps on getting kicked out.

Some anecdotes:

When the granddaughter injured her foot and was unable to do the balance beam
at the gymnastics gym, her grandmother saw her work out on the pull up bar and
do _thirty_ pull-ups in a row.

The grandmother came downstairs one afternoon when the granddaughter and her
brother and her parents were staying in their home. Right near, one of the
outlets there was a fresh hole kicked in the drywall. The granddaughter said
"Yes, I kicked the wall but I don't know where that hole came from".

The granddaughter was in the car with her parents and said something shocking
that made everyone upset (it wasn't specified). She then got out of the car
and started pummeling the hood.

~~~
RobertRoberts
I can't possibly know for any certainty, but is it possible this girl was
abused? I know first hand normal and reasonable children will go crazy
(simplified description) after trauma. And it doesn't just go away after time,
some effects stick around forever or until they are faced and overcome. And
even then it's hard to behave normally. (ie, massive amounts of anger and
frustration but no way to relieve the pain)

It may do a great disservice to someone who is really suffering to get the
label sociopath or psychopath undeservedly. But I also know there are people
(I personally have dealt with) that just want to destroy you, and hate
everyone...

~~~
truculation
My guess is a psychopath is somebody has gone through mental anguish in youth
and has overcome it with the result that he can't be shamed by others any more
than a hardened soldier can be frightened of a wasp. That mental anguish
_might_ have been the result of abuse but it might just be the product of an
intelligent but mistaken understanding of life generally -- plenty of people
are capable of mentally torturing themselves.

~~~
SideburnsOfDoom
> My guess is a psychopath is somebody has gone through mental anguish in
> youth

That's an interesting theory. How long have you been working in the field, how
many psychopaths have you met, and what is the strongest evidence for your
theory?

~~~
tomcatfish
Relax a little, the poster outright said it was a guess. They were just
offering a POSSIBLE explanation based off of their personal views, no need to
pull out your Empiricism 101 textbook.

~~~
SideburnsOfDoom
My guess, actually, is that people who have done the work would not view this
as a "possible explanation". It seems about as useful as speculating that
"hey, maybe the earth is flat?"

But you never know, that's why I asked, hoping that someone OP or otherwise
who has experience in the field would comment.

TFA is specifically taking about genetics and brain scans, which makes me
curious as to how that would be reconciled with this "theory" about bad
experiences, if indeed the OP was aware of the content of the article at all.

------
forapurpose
> I happened to have a series of genetic alleles, "warrior genes," that had to
> do with serotonin and were thought to be at risk for aggression, violence,
> and low emotional and interpersonal empathy-if you're raised in an abusive
> environment.

I worry that violence breeds violence, literally. What will happen to kids
growing up in Syria today, where effectively mass abuse takes place (unless
different kinds of abuse have different effects)? What will happen to kids
growing up in the U.S. and Europe today, where they experience the constant
bombardment of hate, either by observation, participation, or as victims of
it?

EDIT: How many extra abusers are we creating in the next generation, who can
pass it down to their kids, etc. ... On the hopeful side, violence has
decreased in the world over time; we can make make progress if we want to.

------
John_KZ
Just because you say you're a psychopath doesn't mean you are one. You'd
expect a neuroscientist to be aware of the limitations of your ability to
self-diagnose. My personal opinion is that he loves the attention he gets. He
gets to play tough and loves it. He feels dangerous and special. It's an
escape mechanism. He might even act like a sociopath on purpose, but he
doesn't seem like one. He might be a narcissist. Or he might be just self-
delusional. It's a sad situation regardless.

~~~
jbob2000
Well, here's my take on this; A disease is only a disease if it causes you
dis-ease.

Some people howl and wail about a paper cut, others will continue through the
day with a broken limb as if nothing happened. I am sure the same can be said
for mental ailments; some people can't function with even the slightest sad
thought, others can apparently become great scientists under the strongest
psychopathy.

In this guy's case - he clearly does feel some dis-ease about his body.
Whether or not the medical community agrees doesn't really matter, we have no
ability to measure the mind, so we have to go off of what people tell us.

The biggest problem I see with this guy is that he's using the people around
him as part of his therapy, whether or not they want to be a part of it.

~~~
John_KZ
>we have no ability to measure the mind, so we have to go off of what people
tell us.

That's not true. We have no tools to study the mind like we study ballistics,
with strict mathematical formalities, but we certainly can study other
people's minds, based on what they say and do. And regarless, we don't have to
take their word for it.

------
AlexCoventry
How have the neuroanatomical assumptions behind this article stood up under
the focus on replicability which has evolved since its publication? Is there
still good reason to believe that those scans imply psychopathy?

------
Myrmornis
This article lurches into a rambling story about the biology of psychopathy
without defining what psychopathy is, and the font keeps changing size for no
apparent reason.

------
callesgg
Wow, i think the story hear is:

Psychopaths can be easily diagnosed thorough a brain scan.

Or a more likely narrative: A person compared pictures and interpreted them
wrong.

------
runciblespoon
Bad science, in a random sample, testing showed no correlation between brain
activity and psychopathic behavior.

------
bitL
Could it be the diagnosis is simply wrong, i.e. brain scans are interpreted
incorrectly? We know that brain is quite elastic and after an injury another
part of the brain can take the functionality of non-working part. Maybe his
brain routed around damage from pre-natal stage?

~~~
77pt77
> We know that brain is quite elastic

I'm assuming you mean plastic.

This is what he says:

> My bias is that even though I work in growth factors, plasticity, memory,
> and learning, I think the whole idea of plasticity in adults—or really after
> puberty—is so overblown.

~~~
Pokepokalypse
But he also said that his condition was somewhat overcome via "learned
behavior". Depending on how you look at it, that's a layman's "plasticity".
(the neuroscience term meaning something specific - the layman's term simply
referring to the question of whether "people can change"). At the root of it
is: does this person WANT to change? In TFA's case, he went from a state of
either not being aware he had a problem, or not caring enough to want to
change - to a state of wanting to change (and having the motivation and self
discipline to overcome his impulses, and methodically role-play genuine
feelings. What's at the root of this "want"? Fear of going to prison?
Appreciation for his privileged position and overall success in life? How is
that fundamentally different from a "Normal" person. And was his change a
result of post-pubescent plasticity? Or is this neuroscientist getting dualist
on us?

------
mmirate
> It means, for example, that if you have to go to war, and sometimes you
> probably have to go to war—I'm not talking about a belligerent country
> starting war or fomenting discord, but if you have to go to war and to
> engage infantry—you do not send 18-year-olds into it, because their brains
> aren't set.

Unless the enemy infantry and fire-support are utterly incompetent or horribly
outnumbered, the vast majority of such 18-year-olds will be killed in action.
(And in the outnumbering case, the younger infantry are likely to be lower-
rank and therefore could be easily selected for the more dangerous tasks.)

What consequences remain, then, of using 18-year-olds instead of 25-year-olds?
Is the author actually implying that 18-year-olds' emotional deficiencies make
them less competent as infantry?

------
ggm
Did he pick another cohort as a control? How did he find a cohort of brain
scans to use a a control which are not at this point now equally suspect?

------
0xdeadbeefbabe
> He not only learned that few people were surprised at the outcome

I wonder if anyone tried to tell him before he did the scan.

~~~
Goronmon
_I asked them why they didn’t tell me and they said, "We did tell you. We've
all been telling you." I argued that they had called me "crazy," and they all
said, "No. We said you're psychopathic."_

~~~
0xdeadbeefbabe
It's interesting that the brain scan is the thing that opened his mind, but no
one else did even though they tried.

~~~
n4r9
Indeed. I often feel like I don't fully accept something until I've arrived at
it in my own way somehow. It's similar to how a test for understanding a
subject is whether you can put it "into your own words". I wonder if a similar
effect could account for his ignorance of others' opinion of him. Almost
certainly compounded by psychopathic inclinations to manipulate those around
you, but never _be_ manipulated.

~~~
0xdeadbeefbabe
Then writing a book probably makes it more acceptable in some sense.

