
Venezuela, Bolivia offer asylum to U.S. intel leaker Snowden  - esalazar
http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/05/world/americas/venezuela-snowden/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
======
crazygringo
It really is the most wonderful irony that the US's apparent heavy-handed
actions over Morales' plane ended up biting them in the ass.

As an American, I really do want to know, though -- who are the ham-fisted
officials in charge of overseeing Snowden's prosecution? Who was the actual
official who made the decision to tell France and Spain not to let Morales
land? And who are the officials in France and Spain who decided to obey? (And
are they still denying it?)

I mean, regardless of what you think about Snowden, the level of American
incompetence here, the way our officials are simply disrespecting other
governments and peoples of the world, is really astounding. It's shameful, and
I wish I knew who the bumbling officials actually are.

~~~
michaelwww
I don't know why many assume the U.S. was behind this. France and Italy have
their own spy programs and the less said the better, so blocking him could
have forced Snowden back to Russia to accept Putin's terms (stop talking) or
cause his capture.

~~~
crazygringo
Well that's why I said "apparent". But it is awfully hard to believe that a
country would independently take the seemingly unprecedented step of dening
landing privileges to a sitting head of state, "just because" \-- when Snowden
has had nothing to do with either France or Spain.

And it's even harder to believe that _two_ countries both would.

~~~
michaelwww
I had assumed the U.S. was behind it, but P.J. Crowley doesn't think so.

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv0AOpfeN6k#t=428s](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv0AOpfeN6k#t=428s)

------
9h1d9j809s
I've lived in Bolivia for a year when Evo Morales was already president. I've
also been to Venezuela.

Assuming the CIA won't try to actually abduct him there and Morales will stay
in power, Bolivia is a perfect choice in many ways. Morales is totally
trustworthy. The country is very safe and less militarized than Venezuela.
Policy is somewhat more moderate, basically based on social democratic ideas
as they are seen in Europe. There is a history of corruption, but this is
mostly in the lower layers of government and police and elections are probably
not affected.

Venezuela, however, can actually protect him once he is inside the country.
Bolivia probably can't.

~~~
g-garron
I am bolivian and live in Bolivia, this is one of the most accurate comments
about my country I've read from a foreign.

If you have questions about how is here, I will try to be as objective as I
can. (Disclaimer: I am not into politics, I am a geek/hacker :) ).

------
marvin
It's so good that at least two states have the balls to stand up to the USA
and offer asylum against what is obviously a political manhunt.

As a Norwegian, I'm ashamed that our government and bureaucracy is too scared
to stand up for our moral values. If Snowden was from Somalia, we would have
granted him asylum with no further discussion. It's ridiculous that a (former)
"banana republic" is the only nation that dares take this issue seriously.
They may have their own agenda, but facts are facts.

~~~
GHFigs
_obviously a political manhunt_

Are you suggesting that Snowden was charged with a crime for his politics and
not his actions?

~~~
marvin
No. There was probably a crime involved. But Snowden is a classic example of a
whistleblower, which the US Government has been harsly persecuting through the
legal system. The response is completely out of proportion to the crime - in
effect grounding the private plane of a foreign head of state, which would be
considered an act of war if it was done to Air Force One. If this was a simple
question of a crime, it would be handled through INTERPOL and the normal legal
channels. It is currently handled with international diplomacy at the highest
levels.

This makes it seem pretty obvious that the prosecution/persecution is due to a
fear that future whistleblowers will reveal more illegal activity in the US
government and that this attention will cause a backlash from the public.
Remember that the programs Snowden revealed are very likely illegal, at the
very least violating the US Constitution.

I am claiming that Edward Snowden and similar whistleblowers are political
enemies of the US Government (though not necessarily the people of the United
States), and that this is why they are treated so harshly.

[Edit: Typo fix.]

~~~
ryanhuff
The clear difference from your typical wistleblower case is that Snoden
allegedly downloaded significant classified material, threatened to release
this material, and has traveled to a cointry that would be a primary
benefactor of this classified information. So, Snow den created this very
unusual case.

------
salimmadjd
Snowden should be called a "public informant", not a leaker, whistleblower,
etc. Typically, informants are insiders who help police, etc. "Informant" has
a positive connotation. So if the government has their informants: FBI
informant, police informant, etc. we the people should have a "Public
Informant".

~~~
mjn
Oddly enough, the term "whistleblower" was coined specifically to avoid the
perceived negative connotations of the term "informant":
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistleblower#Origin_of_term](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistleblower#Origin_of_term)

~~~
jivatmanx
Interesting, the negative connotation might have been a legacy of prohibition.

It's unfortunate that people don't feel the same about the war on drugs,
simply because it mostly effects minorities.

~~~
jeltz
I don't think so. I have a negative connotation and I am not American. I would
more guess it is American propaganda around the war of drugs which is trying
to make informant sound like a good thing.

When I hear informant I think of organizations like Stasi.

~~~
klibertp
It's more "collaborator" a bit east from you, "informant" has a more neutral
meaning here.

------
speeder
Heh, as I saw some people commenting, Evo Morales incident only would push the
entire South America to end giving Snowden Asylum...

In fact this whole thing is being very interesting, because one guy is
managing to create multiple diplomatic incidents, I would not be surprised if
this end in some sort of war, or a breakup of alliances or trade zones.

~~~
wellboy
I have a bad feeling, that's how wars are started...

~~~
speeder
If this become a war, who will be blamed, Snowden? US presidents with their
terrible policies? Osama Bin Laden for giving incentive to the terrible
policies? US presidents for training Osama Bin Laden in first place? Russia
for invading Afghanistan and giving reason to train Osama Bin Laden?

I think it all depends on who wins in the end. Too bad, the common people
always lose.

~~~
jivatmanx
Bin Laden is definitely the Gavrilo Princip, but I disagree with the opinion
that our leaders were just innocently and emotionally reacting to 9/11, as
most of Bush's cabinet consisted of hardcore, , Team B[1], neoconservative
ideologues.

[1][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_B](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_B)

~~~
aylons
I don't think they were innocently reacting, I think that people innocently[1]
let them do it, and that this was Bin Laden's intention.

[1] I stopped short of saying dumbly.

------
cdooh
This is what happens when you push an entire (sub?)continent to feel like they
must flip you back for embarassing one of their own

~~~
bobo13579
Two countries led by the some of the most leftist leaders != entire
"(sub?)continent"

Judging by those who have not granted Snowden asylum, there are many more who
support the U.S. than otherwise.

~~~
k-mcgrady
Not granting Snowden asylum does not mean those countries support the US. It
means that the US has significant influence it can hold over them.

~~~
thufry
It also could mean that they don't care about the whole affair enough to get
involved on either side.

------
GoldfishCRM
I think on of wikileaks misstakes was to apply for asylum in 21 countries.
Make it easier for the countries to say no. It is like hichhicking. Chanses of
you getting picked up at a road where the drivers of the cars know that there
is only one car in one hour is higher then getting picked up at a high trafic
road. Same psychology.

~~~
pivnicek
You may be correct if getting asylum was the only purpose of the spray and
pray request. To me, it seems to have filled another purpose also, to show the
people of the requested countries where their governments stand. For example,
the French government's come under quite heavy fire for their handling of the
situation.

------
ballard
Snowden is playing chess.

The end-game is that he will always be looking over his shoulder, whether it's
a new host government that wants to score points with Washington or a
contractor collecting a bounty placed on his head. Or, anxiety of previous
could get him.

