
People Like You More Than You Know - ALee
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/illusion-chasers/people-like-you-more-than-you-know/
======
sureaboutthis
These are true stories. I don't wish to come across as bragging.

The last day of a job I had for seven years, the director of engineering told
me I was the best engineer he ever knew. And he worked for some pretty well
known engineering firms. If he had told me that before, I might not have left.

A woman came into my office--someone who didn't seem to want to give me the
time of day--and the conversation got around to her telling me how depressed
she was about her life and loves. After maybe 10 minutes, she thanked me for
being such a good listener and said something about I was just so charismatic.
I almost fell out of my chair.

I taught electronics at a trade school to a morning class for a couple of
years. There were hundreds of students, and I knew I was a good teacher, but I
didn't think the students thought once about me when they went home. On my
last day of work, one of the guys asked me to give a special last lecture on a
topic. As I walked into the room, I was followed by students from my class,
the afternoon class and the evening class! They filled the room and presented
me with a fairly expensive bottle of whiskey.

I've had a few girls tell me, after it was too late, that they always had a
crush on me. Well, I was interested in them, too.

If someone would have just said something sooner, life, for me, would be
totally different now.

~~~
davemp
This is why you shouldn't be afraid to give out (truthful) compliments folks.
For a small communication effort, you may make a big enough impact for your
compliment to be remembered for years. Maybe the person will even smile to
themselves and write a nice HN comment about it! (or not quit your company)...

~~~
DoreenMichele
_This is why you shouldn 't be afraid to give out (truthful) compliments
folks_

I've been seriously and repeatedly burned for doing that. I then spent years
dialing it back. I'm 53 and only just now working on figuring out how to do
that again without letting it turn into some shit show where everyone treats
me like I'm their bitch.

Every single guy I have ever gushed at about how keen he is has, without fail,
promptly turned into a psycho asshole monster and made me wish I never met
him.

Maybe I'm just doing it wrong. But my feeling is there are reasons most people
don't gush at you until your last day in their life as you leave: Because so
many people promptly act like monkeys do if humans make the mistake of feeding
them and just make your life a living hell over the crime of trying to be
nice.

~~~
ianai
People also readily undervalue things that come to them easily -
relationships, friendships, money, power, etc. I work at a multi billion
dollar facility that is routinely taken for granted by workers. “Oh it’s just
this place” sort of thing. I’ve known men and women to undervalue
relationships that came to them easily. That exact concept was on display in
Hemingway’s The Sun Also Rises. I think the “struggle” really does make people
value things and others more highly and the lack thereof less.

My working hypothesis is our brains are always learning - literally
everything. We learn our concept of time from our experience with it. We learn
our concept of a relationship with another person from our experience with
them. If someone comes into our life easily - relative to other relationships
- our brain associates them with less value. It’s also horrible logic.

Edit- as for whether someone likes you: people accept, overlook, and tolerate
more aberrations from normal/good treatment from people they value or like. If
they’ll accept little of your aberrations then they’re unlikely to ever like
you - run for the hills. That’s one of my tricks for likeness.

~~~
DoreenMichele
I think there are a lot of factors. A few that readily come to mind:

Pecking order nonsense.

People who are big believers in pecking order see you as "beneath" them if you
compliment them. They then feel owed and like you are permanently required to
kowtow to them and aren't allowed to quit.

Prosody and tone matching.

My son probably is incapable of these two things. He gets very negative social
reactions from people all the time. Tone matching signals pecking order at a
subconscious level. People aren't consciously aware of it.

I apparently tone match by default, which gets me read as deferential and
servile. It works quite well when dealing with, for example, wait staff who
routinely get mistreated. I get excellent service anywhere that I am a
regular.

But people who do not perceive themselves as "below" me conclude I'm a doormat
and they can wipe their boots on me.

Value signaling.

People get this idea that they are irreplaceable and I am being so nice
because they are so incredibly amazingly rare and wonderful. I have found it
works vastly better for me to be kind of indifferent and make sure they
realize "there can be another you in a minute." Which annoys the fool out of
me.

~~~
emmelaich
FWIW, Doreen you are one of the most level headed and sensible commenters on
HN.

------
sharkweek
I'm sure this is true.

Another thing I'm sure of is how little time most people spend thinking about
other people. Even the people in my life I don't care for, I rarely spend more
than a passing moment thinking about them, even if they're in the same room.

The ones I do think about a lot are the ones I love (wife, children, closest
friends).

Despite knowing this, though, I'll admit that I can spend a lot of time
thinking about _That One Dumb Thing I Said at Dinner Around My Friends_ \-
again, though, I'm 99% sure most people don't remember the dumb or
embarrassing things others say or do.

~~~
oatsandsugar
This reminds me of a fortune cookie I once had, that I first thought was
aggressive, and then I found liberating:

"You'd care less about what people think about you if you realized how little
they do"

~~~
theoh
That's the spirit that got Linus Torvalds where he is now —

"Be abrasive, don't pull punches, be a 'git'. People don't care about you, so
you can't really hurt them anyway"

~~~
coldtea
> _where he is now_

A celebrated 100x programmer at the top of the software engineering hierarchy,
whose work helped span a trillion dollar industry?

He might have regretted being so abrasive as of late, but let's not paint
things as if he failed to accomplish much because of that. In fact it might
have helped solidify a more cautious approach around kernel development and
keep possible detractors at bay, in the early days, compared to him being too
polite and accommodating.

~~~
theoh
Well, we're all saddled with git's total disregard for the user experience.

We'd still be struggling with the positive and negative aspects of open source
software if Linus hadn't existed, just as the first world war would probably
have happened anyway if Gavrilo Princip hadn't precipitated it. Bear in mind
that however good a coder Linus might be, RMS is still an influential figure
for political reasons despite checking out of the coding business years ago.
Politics, charisma of one sort or another, celebrity...

~~~
GhostVII
I quite like gits user experience, personally. If you don't like it, there are
lots of tools built on top of it that make it easier to use. Not sure what the
issue is.

~~~
watt
Git could be a showcase of inconsistent and confusing UX. If you like it, and
you don't see any issue with it, then you know nothing about good UX.

~~~
monadgonad
This is unnecessarily cruel. Design is subjective: someone liking git's UX
design doesn't mean they "know nothing", just that they have very different
opinions from you.

And please don't respond to this telling me all the ways git's design is bad;
I'm not disagreeing with that.

------
toomanybeersies
It's one thing to know this, but another to actually feel it.

For a variety of reasons, I get quite bad paranoia sometimes that nobody
actually _likes_ me. I feel like at best they tolerate me, and at worst are
using me. It's a really shitty feeling to feel. It's caused me to drift away
from a lot of friendships because I think "they don't really like me", and
then months or years later, I run into them and they ask me why I drifted
away.

It took me quite a lot of time to come to terms with the fact that it's just
my brain fucking with me. I still can't shake the feeling sometimes, but at
least I can recognise it and work around it. It's a weird cognitive dissonance
to have, to know that all your friends like you and enjoy your company, but at
the same time feeling like a piece of shit that nobody wants to be around.

~~~
toxik
I get that feeling and I think it may be true sometimes. I had this especially
with my childhood friends when we grew older, I felt like somehow I didn’t
really count unless I had something to bring them. So I left for greener
pastures. Worked great for me, I’d rather be alone than pretend to be liked.

~~~
ghostbrainalpha
If you don't like yourself, and you assume that others would be rational in
not liking you as well, it is very easy to project those feelings onto them.

I would also rather be alone than have pretend relationships. But make sure
you really know what is happening. Because projecting your self hate is a much
more common problem than being surrounded by actors.

In fact if you already know that you dislike your self, it is almost certainly
what is going on.

~~~
toxik
Absolutely, you teach others how to treat you with your actions -- but that
applies more to new acquaintances than old friends you made before you were
even really a person (i.e. childhood friends.) I'd say I like myself a little
too much today, to a point of it nearing complacency. I think that group was
just kind of negative and standing on each other, it happens.

------
piazz
I transferred into my university as a junior. I was older than my peers,
having trod a somewhat unconventional life path before transferring. My first
year at the new university, I felt felt alienated and invisible. While I made
a few close friends, I couldn't seem to really integrate into the larger
social fabric of the place. People just didn't seem to care about me.

Or, so I thought. One day at a party, after enduring this perceived
ostracization for two semesters, a very drunk close friend pulled me aside to
tell me that _everybody_ thought I was this "mysterious transfer who thought
he was too cool to talk to anybody". Everybody wanted to talk to me.

Most everybody knew of me, a number of girls had crushes (!!!), and a few
flattering (though unfortunately, untrue) rumors even circulated about my
exciting life before coming to school. Everybody wanted to get to know me but
I apparently exuded some aura of elitism that kept people at bay.

I was stunned, to say the least.

So yeah, we never know what others think of us. I never quite recouped my
squandered social capital, but it was a huge wakeup call that I'll carry with
me through life. We can rarely trust our internal critics when it comes to
evaluating what people think of us, and sadly, we miss opportunities because
of it.

------
finaliteration
It takes me about 3-4 months of being around someone regularly before I’m
convinced that they aren’t constantly annoyed by me and everything that I say.
I hide it pretty well.

Sartre was on to something with his comments about “the gaze of the Other”.

~~~
mostlysilent
It takes me about 3-4 months of being around someone regularly before I'm able
to hold a conversation that's more than direct answers to direct questions.
It's impossible to hide pretty well, or at all really.

Everyone I've ever known says something like "you don't talk much, do you" or
something equally obvious. I used to wonder if people ask others the obvious
"you're fat, aren't you" etc. I've learnt that few people like a strange,
mostly silent creature being around long. It's very rare that I'm around
anyone long enough for me to get past it and actually make a friend.

I read articles that open with "all it takes is a little conversation". Gee
thanks. That's the hardest thing I know, and getting harder the further into
being an adult I get.

~~~
djajshgsjja
I’ve had the same issue, and it’s really tough. I’ve had some success by
asking people questions, paying attention to the answers, asking follow up
questions, sharing details about myself if relevant. It doesn’t come naturally
and I don’t always do it right, but it has allowed me to become friends with
some people who I wouldn’t have been friends with otherwise.

~~~
FPGAhacker
Yeah, basically this. I personally don’t like people asking me a lot of
questions, and so for a long time I assumed this was generally true.

Apparently it isn’t. People like to talk about their lives.

I guess my main reason for not liking people asking me questions is how their
eyes glaze over and they start fidgeting when I answer. Maybe it’s me. I find
it pretty annoying so I give terse answers or deflect in one way or another.

But other people do like personal questions it seems. And I admit, it helps
build relationships.

I guess my problem is I just am not that curious about people I’ve just met.
It would be pretty rare for me to give a shit about what you do for a living,
and so if I ask, it’ll be my eyes glazing over.

But I do make the effort anyway, particularly if I get the feeling that
someone is a talker.

~~~
DoofusOfDeath
I'm no ace at social interactions, so please treat the following as a straw-
man theory, but...

I wonder if you (and I) sometimes fail to recognize when the person asking
those questions is _actually_ communicating something different (e.g., they
want to become more friendly with you). But we fail to recognize that they're
using a cultural idiom to do so.

A neuro-psychologist has told me that based on some testing I've had done,
there's a decent chance I'd also test positive for Asperger's. And this kind
of focusing on the literal without noticing that it pattern-matches a
different, idiomatic interpretation would make sense for a person with
Asperger's.

It reminds me of that line from the song What a Wonderful World, "I see
friends shaking hands saying how do you do They're really saying I love you."

If that's what's really going on, perhaps the number of questions you're
getting can seem less onerous?

~~~
pm90
You're definitely on the right track. Human communication is rarely just about
the words that you speak. Your speech intonation, pauses, body language etc.
speak volumes. Those that don't understand these things well tend to not "get"
what others are trying to tell them via all the non-verbal stuff.

Initially it seemed extremely confusing to me; why would someone ask/tell me
something when they meant something different? What did they really mean when
they said something? Those questions continue to cause me much anxiety but I
am beginning to learn more about these non-verbal communication skills.

It kinda make sense that this is more common with nerds/geeks: we spend an
awful lot more time with ourselves and things we like doing rather than
socially with peers/friends/relationships. The people who tend to be more
social, learn more social skills this way... kind of a chicken and egg
problem.

------
cyberferret
I spent the first 40 years of my life wanting to be liked by everybody. I
would go out of my way to be polite, not to cause waves or friction, and to
basically be the 'nice guy' that everyone would like and be comfortable
around.

It wasn't until I went to a personal development seminar, and the speaker was
a very frank gentleman who said - "Look, whenever you walk into a room of 10
people you've never met, you will find 1, maybe 2 of them that you will like
immediately and instantly get along with. 6 or 7 of the rest, you will
probably become friends or acquaintances with through the course of time. The
remainder will never like you no matter what you say or do."

Understanding that was a huge shift for me internally. I stopped trying to
impress everyone, but instead focused on people who showed interest in
interacting with me in all social situations. My friendships tended to stay
the same, but my personal happiness levels increased markedly, and I stopped
feeling guilty or worrying about what I did wrong when the odd person was
unfriendly or ignored me. I feel free enough to just be 'me' again. The old
saying of "You can't please all of the people all of the time" certainly rings
true.

------
peterlk
I imagine this will get buried in the comments, but this brings up a separate
truth that I have only recently begun to discover.

People just want company.

I have a tendency to assume that I don't have a meaningful relationship with
someone with whom I have not spoken to extensively. Or, similarly, that they
don't like me if we don't speak when we're together.

Something I've learned through traveling is that sharing silence with people
is just as important as sharing words with them, and people like you either
way. Sitting at a cafe or in a backyard having a drink quietly is all we need.
We just want to feel acknowledged

------
andrew_
This is true of open source contribution as well. A few moons ago, I
(relatively) quietly stepped away from a rather large open source project that
I had contributed a fair amount of impactful projects to. There was no fan-
fair made about my departure from any party, including myself. As time passes
and people find out, they've reached out to say how much they appreciated what
I had done - much more so than when I was active on the project.

It's deeply satisfying on many levels to hear as much.

~~~
madaxe_again
Yeah, I left my business of a decade a few years ago as my health had gone to
hell and I couldn’t continue - nobody, no colleagues, no clients, not even my
co-founder, said goodbye, never mind anything else. Nobody cared that I ended
up in hospital repeatedly, mortally unwell. If I bump into them in the street
they don’t even recognise me - and we worked together for over a decade in
some cases.

Confirmation that you’re hated can be just as satisfying and cathartic.

~~~
mywittyname
I sounds counter-intuitive, but it must be satisfying because you move from
worrying/wondering to knowing. Not unlike finding out your partner has had an
affair. Obviously that's a terrible thing to discover, but finally knowing
allows you to start the process of healing.

~~~
madaxe_again
Yep, it’s pretty much the same feeling, having experienced that, too.

------
thanatropism
I saw a reference to this (not sure if the same article) idea about a week ago
and started talking to people at work as if they want to like me if they can
find a way to. I've been since feeling less alienated from the broader staff
(outside our five-person technical team).

I didn't have any reason to believe it, but thought it was a fun meme and the
placebo effect might be pleasing. What, maybe I've begun going out of my way
to charm people by believing this is what they want.

I should reread "How to make friends and influence people" \-- I remember it
being a repetitive litany of "try to please people". But maybe this is the
whole point -- people want to like you, but they may need some help.

~~~
tvanantwerp
If I remember How to Make Friends and Influence People, it was more about
showing people that you care about them. Not so much pleasing as showing
interest and empathy.

------
chrisweekly
This reminds me of the saying, "We're not who we think we are. Nor are we what
others think we are. Rather, we are who we think others think we are."

~~~
ListeningPie
The quote is also further up the thread and I'm repeating my comment, but how
do you interpret the last line of the quote. The first line is how I see
myself, the second how you see me, then from who's perspective is the last
line?

~~~
LandR
It's confusing isn't it... I think it's you will become the person you think
other people think you are?

Like you might not be an asshole, people might not think you are an asshole
but if you believe that people think you are an asshole you will become an
asshole.

~~~
thelasthuman
So then "you're the average of the company you keep"?

------
jcadam
Other than my wife, I really don't care if people like me anymore. I want to
be respected and taken seriously. Anything beyond that is gravy.

------
nojvek
It has two cookie notices that cover more than half the screen. Wow! Why do we
present this horrible UX when the user has no course of action. You’ll be
tracked anyway right ?

------
Moodles
Also not wishing to brag. The craziest example of this I can think of from my
own life is that during one particularly crazy house party during my graduate
days I ended up super drunk and waking up in this girl’s bed the next morning.
When I was sober I regretted it quite massively. But the morning was horrible.
She said how she had liked me for ages and how everyone thinks I’m this great
guy but I don’t even know it. It was truly bizarre because I never realised
she liked me at all. In fact, we used to argue a lot about random topics like
political things and so on. I thought I annoyed her. It was just a bizarre and
awful morning.

So I suppose a corollary of “people care about you more than you know” is that
you need to treat people as well as they deserve.

~~~
jacobush
Interesting that you felt horrible despite her saying she really liked you.
There's a lot going on in the mind.

~~~
Moodles
Well I felt horrible because I was toying with her feelings a bit since I
didn't feel the same way (plus my massive hangover).

~~~
jacobush
This makes you a good person in my book. Everyone makes mistakes, but some
don't recognize them as such.

------
Joe-Z
Is this really the problem though?

The author claims her reason for not being able to „mingle“ with a room full
of people is that she‘s afraid people won‘t like her. For me at least, the
reason is more like missing relevance. Why should I talk to stranger X instead
of stranger Y? And what would we even be talking _about_? That‘s what is
holding me back from starting conversations.

Sure, not being able to tell if people like you is a problem. But in my
opinion this only comes into play _after_ you‘ve made first contact.

------
qubax
What does that even mean? I'm sure some like me more than I think and some
hate me more than I think. But mostly 99% of the people don't care because
they have their lives to lead.

Are there people I like more than they know. Sure. Are there people I hate
more than they know. Absolutely. But really 99.99% of the people don't matter.
I don't think about them or them me.

Ultimately, you care about your family and friends. Do people waste their time
wondering if "people" like you or not?

~~~
antonkm
This is a bit out of touch with reality. People generally care a lot of what
others think of them.

Personally I can't even grasp as how one can think that 99.99% of people
doesn't matter. They most certainly do to me. Why would I not care about
"them"? I believe seeing others as a waste of time is probably not doing
yourself or anyone else any good.

This isn't to say I base my self-worth on what others believe to be true about
me, but staying open to their perception makes it easier for self-growth. I
get more input and can evaluate it and see if it's something that I should
implement in myself or not.

------
eiieirurjdndjd
I need this taped on the ceiling above my bed, to my door, to my office, etc.

------
therealdrag0
Source research:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30183512](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30183512)

"The Liking Gap in Conversations: Do People Like Us More Than We Think?"

Abstract:

Having conversations with new people is an important and rewarding part of
social life. Yet conversations can also be intimidating and anxiety provoking,
and this makes people wonder and worry about what their conversation partners
really think of them. Are people accurate in their estimates? We found that
following interactions, people systematically underestimated how much their
conversation partners liked them and enjoyed their company, an illusion we
call the liking gap. We observed the liking gap as strangers got acquainted in
the laboratory, as first-year college students got to know their dorm mates,
and as formerly unacquainted members of the general public got to know each
other during a personal development workshop. The liking gap persisted in
conversations of varying lengths and even lasted for several months, as
college dorm mates developed new relationships. Our studies suggest that after
people have conversations, they are liked more than they know.

------
peter303
Life is too short to wallow in self-pity. Give yourself more credit.

------
CitizenTekk
I think it has also have something to do on how you look towards life. If you
are more like to be optimistic about life, you're doing the same as much as
you look towards other people.

But if you have other reasons as for like you've gone through traumatic
experience, I think it will have effect about on how you will connect to
people thou some process like counselling may work things out for them it
still depends on your status and outlook towards life. Financially,
emotionally and physically.

------
JepZ
I am sure it depends on the topic you are talking about. When I see something
that doesn't match my ideals, I start talking about it, which creates some
sort of a negative atmosphere.

While I am sure the people around me value that perspicacity to some extent, I
feel like sometimes they wish I would just shut up and let things be like they
are without focussing on imperfections that surround us.

So being positive probably is a better way to make people appreciate your
presence.

------
sigfubar
Does it really matter what others think? Too much of our self-worth is tied up
in the fleeting opinions of others. There are only two opinions that matter to
me: my wife’s and my daughter’s. The rest of humanity is made up of people I
interact with for a specific purpose, such as work, and those interactions are
governed by certain rules. Within such frameworks we play our roles and go our
separate ways after, and no one’s self esteem needs to be hurt.

~~~
NoPicklez
You might hold the opinions of your wife and daughter higher given your point
in time, which I'd agree with. However, others opinions of course matter, no
they shouldn't totally control how you think about yourself but they certainly
do have an impact on how you perceive yourself.

For those that perhaps don't have a wife or daughter, then the opinions of
others of course have a higher weighting.

~~~
javelin11
I can see how this is a natural tendency that we have all fallen victim to,
but I wonder if the idea of self-worth has gotten twisted. In reality, people
have misconceptions about other people all the time, and it does us no good to
constantly worry that others’ impression of us may not be what we want it to
be.

Perhaps the better approach is living day in day out how you want to live and
the people you’d want to be around will be naturally attracted to that in the
long run after seeing who you really are. That way, you are not out there
trying to impress others but being yourself, not giving an iota of a care
about what others think, and trusting that they way you live will naturally
bring you in contact with people who have respect for you and vice versa.

Seems like a less stressful, healthier way to live, at least.

~~~
mindentropy
Things don't happen "naturally". It takes effort/work to do anything.
Therefore there is very rarely natural attraction. It takes work/effort to
make people respect and like you.

------
badrabbit
Curious on how much cognitive dissonance is caused by this. "I believe they
don't like me. I also believe I need them to like me."

------
davesque
Anyone got a link to the paper referenced? I followed the link in the article
but got hit with a login wall.

~~~
martey
From the website of the lead author: [http://www.ericaboothby.com/s/The-
Liking-Gap.pdf](http://www.ericaboothby.com/s/The-Liking-Gap.pdf)

~~~
wafflesraccoon
Thank you

------
hashkb
I highly doubt this is true. More likely, people won't officially admit how
much they hate each other. But all you have to do is listen to any group talk
about an absent friend to hear reliably negative feedback.

------
sulam
I have a much better reason for not “mingling” than that: It’s a colossal
waste of time! 60s conversations that inevitably end just when they might get
interesting is pretty much my definition of hell.

------
noobiemcfoob
Yeah, but none of that helps with me not liking _them_

~~~
munchbunny
If you listed and categorized the people you dislike, what would the breakdown
look like?

I personally found as I got older (not implying that you're young, just that I
changed over time) that many people I previously disliked were now just people
I felt neutral about. More specifically, I thought they were well intentioned
but flawed as all humans are, and their flaws just happen to be the ones that
bug me but not others.

The people I actually dislike is now a much smaller group, and they almost all
fall into three categories:

1\. People who lack personal integrity

2\. People who act smarter/more qualified than they are and hurt people as a
result

3\. People who consistently take things the wrong way. In the context of race
and gender stuff, this is a hard line to draw, but in my experience the
egregious cases of taking things the wrong way are rare and fairly obvious. I
don't mind well intentioned people in the gray area.

All three categories are just frustrating or tiring to be friends with or to
work with, and they drag everyone else down with them.

~~~
artpepper2
As I get older, there are fewer people I actively _dislike_ , but I also have
less patience to spend on people I don't actively _like_.

~~~
erikpukinskis
... which can lead to actually liking fewer people, because to meet new people
you really like you generally need to spend time with people you only
tolerate. The network effects work better with more overall socializing, and
in my experience you can’t even hit the maintenance threshold (let alone the
growth threshold) by only spending time with those you really favor.

------
m3kw9
To make that statement, it means people massively overestimate how much people
hates them.

------
emersonrsantos
People too busy trying to look perfect, or thinking how to fix their problems,
are too busy to think and praise your ego.

------
forkerenok
One question:

Insecurities come before or after that? Is it a cause or an effect? Or
neither?

------
swingline-747
Liking, respect and depth of rapport are overlapping but different. Some
people like a fool but don't respect them, and respect a criminal without
liking them. Others have deep rapport with someone they're ambivalent about
because of circumstances.

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budadre75
If we can just tell if others like us, like IOI from the seduction community,
we wouldn't treat others as if they don't like us, so the self-fulfilling
prophecy of the inner critic won't be the reality.

