
Formlabs: High Resolution 3D Printer - samwillis
http://www.formlabs.com/
======
jws
The call to action link says: "Pre-Order on Kickstarter"

They must have not gotten the "Kickstarter is not a store" memo. They appear
to be ready to pull the trigger on their manufacturing partners, so this is
sort of a "how big should we make the first run?" type of kickstarter rather
than a "let's create something awesome".

Details…

• Stereolithography printer (laser, not extruder)

• Much nicer than extruder style printers

• $2300-2700 for the machine depending on your precedence

• $140/liter for liquid resin

~~~
gavanwoolery
This might be a kind of dumb idea, but I would love it if somebody created a
Kickstarter project to create a manufacturing and distribution plant for
Kickstarter projects...(obviously, would require a huge investment for all of
the machining equipment).

~~~
chime
I don't think it would work in exactly the same way you are describing but
there may be alternatives. Manufacturing equipment is very expensive and the
only way to justify the cost is to keep it running daily, sometimes 24/7/365.
The change parts for each unique product are also quite expensive (easily
$10k+). If I want to open a KickManufacturing plant, I have to
buy/maintain/service hundreds of different kinds of equipment which includes
the cost of the hardware, software, and technicians. On top of that, each new
product will barely have 10k - 100k units ordered if I'm lucky. After that the
change parts are useless. The other problem with this is the manufacturing
equipment that can do lots of different configurations is slower, error-prone,
and more expensive than specialized equipment that does just one thing. So if
one of the Kickstarter products does become a success and they want 100m
units, you need to buy new equipment or source a better large-scale
manufacturer. And worst of all, most of the equipment will be collecting dust
95% of the time unless someone has just the right Kickstarter project for
them.

What most entrepreneurs spend their time between getting funded and beginning
shipment is finding the right manufacturer who can allocate runtime on their
lines. The manufacturers lose money when the lines aren't running. The
entrepreneurs get delayed when the lines are busy. This is a very complex B2B
market that has no current solution. If someone solves this problem, we can
have significantly better fulfillment of Kickstarter orders.

Such a site would have manufacturers periodically uploading capacities and
capabilities of their equipment, warehouse/distribution resources, and costs
associated with each line/product-type by time/quality. The entrepreneurs
would be able to book the best-fit manufacturer (be it in US, China, or
Norway) and pay a reservation-fee to the manufacturer which sits in escrow
pending successful contract. The reservation-fee would be high enough to deter
fake orders and be credited towards the actual product order. The site could
fund itself by collecting interest on the escrow or charging per new B2B
relation.

~~~
rbanffy
> And worst of all, most of the equipment will be collecting dust 95% of the
> time unless someone has just the right Kickstarter project for them.

Cloud manufacturing?

~~~
Gormo
If Kickstarter crowdsources funding, why not crowdsource manufacturing, too?
Especially considering the increasing proliferation of 3D printing and the
like.

I'm sure that many DIYers, hackerspaces, etc., have the ability to manufacture
small batches of a wide variety of products; QA and final assembly could be
done further up the chain, as a component of distribution.

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samwillis
It will be interesting to watch 3D Systems share price today. JP Morgan issued
a statement yesterday that they thought Formlabs might pose a significant risk
to them.

[https://www.google.com/finance?client=ob&q=NYSE:DDD](https://www.google.com/finance?client=ob&q=NYSE:DDD)

Down 2% already in just 5 min!

~~~
confluence
I don't think you get how the stock market works - short term linear news
announcements do not indicate market translations. The stock market is the
instantaneous auction price of ~100 market participants at any point in time -
it can go in any direction for any reason.

For the vast majority of the time the stock market is stable until such a time
as a whale moves markets and the feedback loop begins.

~~~
guiambros
While I understand the gist your comment, you probably didn't read the link.
This is _exactly_ how the market works: traders don't have time to follow
closely all the markets of all companies they are trading, so they will eat
whatever canned news they get -- provided it came from a reputable source.

So when JP Morgan issues a memo saying _"Formlabs ... could be a threat to
incumbent 3D printer solutions at the low-end of the market in the near-
term... First take: potential negative for DDD"_ \- and in the exact same week
that Wired published a cover page with Bre Pettis and his good-looking
MakerBot Replicator 2... well, maybe it's time to lock in the 110% gains you
had this year with DDD and move on...

~~~
confluence
Traders really don't trade that many companies a year - they specialise - and
if they did so many that they followed canned news - well lets just say they
wouldn't be in business very long.

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mcantelon
Sad prediction: the future of 3D printing will be cheap printers [that
require/are subsidized by] proprietary resins.

~~~
rm999
I actually think it could be more extreme. The printer industry is the way it
is because most people don't really need one, so customers skimp instead of
optimizing for long-term usage. I predict even fewer people will need devoted
3D printers in their homes - especially if there are local versions at a place
like staples/kinkos.

~~~
zemo
that is, until we're printing food. The French Culinary Institute has been
working on 3D food printers for years.

~~~
bradleysmith
<http://burritob0t.com/>

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zafka
I found this about 2 months ago: [http://www.instructables.com/id/Build-a-
Laser-3D-Printer-Ste...](http://www.instructables.com/id/Build-a-
Laser-3D-Printer-Stereolithography-at-Ho/)

It looks to be the same technology without the refinements.

I got pretty excited and bought several of the components, but have yet to
assemble them.

------
cottonseed
Can an expert in 3D printing compare this with, say, the MakerBot Replicator
2? How does the extruder technology compare with SL on resolution, hardness,
speed of printing, etc?

~~~
tibbon
Lithography printing from what I've seen so far is significantly better than
extruder tech. We have a Projet 1500 and an original Makerbot at my
hackerspace (Columbus Idea Foundry). The Projet absolutely kills the makerbot
for resolution and jitter. If you made a sphere on the projet, it will be
pretty damn smooth. On the Makerbot (original) it will have a strong texture
to it. No experience with Replicator 2.

Yet, its also around 10x as expensive to run (ABS is cheap, whereas the liquid
stuff is expensive). It also takes a lot more room (there's separate machines
for a drying/curing thing). The resolution on the Projet 1500 (which isnt the
best one in the world, just what we have) is pretty limited at like 1024x768
since it uses a projector instead of a laser. I'm thinking the laser might
allow for finer resolution, but I'm not sure.

Also, our Projet machine won't operate (like, at all) if its above 75F. Most
of our hackerspace is un-airconditioned in a warehouse, so that just doesn't
work. We had to get an AC and put it in an office. Extruder machines just
don't care.

I haven't used the Replicator 2, but the replicator looks promising. At the
same time, if the Formlabs ones does as it says, then its a HUGE move forward
as its around 1/10th the price of something like our Projet 1500.

This looks pretty exciting initially. If I had the money- I'd consider buying
one.

~~~
silasb
I've been putting off going to Columbus Idea Foundry, but with all the cool
tech there I might just have to get my membership.

~~~
tibbon
I'd highly encourage you to come by for a tour, and sign up for a class before
jumping into membership. Not that membership just right away is bad, but doing
this will give you a better idea of if the place is a good fit for you and
your needs. Send me a PM if you'd like a tour or hit up our contact info on
the main website.

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mcantelon
Inspiration? <http://3dhomemade.blogspot.ca/>

Open hardware kit for similar:

<http://b9creator.com/>

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tocomment
It looks like it fills up a tray to do the print. Does it reuse what it
doesn't solidify for future prints? (It would seem like a waste otherwise)

~~~
alesman
The tray is large enough to contain enough resin for roughly 12 hours of
printing and all of the uncured resin can be reused for the next print.

------
tisme
It would be really nice if they laid out how far they are on the road to
making this 3D printer into an actual product.

When you pre-order something the money that you spend should go to
manufacturing, the bill of materials, shipping, handling, warranty and so on.
It should definitely _not_ go into product development and process
development. The reason for that is that those are very long phases with
plenty of opportunity for trouble which may cause delays, price increases,
large changes to the product and even aborted runs.

Pre-ordering a device from a company without a history of shipping product is
a risky business.

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tocomment
Does anyone know how a photopolymer works chemically/molecularly? What is it
about the UV light that makes it solidify?

~~~
sp332
OK this literally is quantum physics and the discovery was Nobel-prize
material but it's not that hard to grasp so here's how it works :)

If you have a chemical reaction that requires a certain energy level, shining
lots of light on it won't help much if each _individual_ photon is below that
energy level. Even if you have a really bright reddish light, each photon
still only has a relatively low energy. On the other hand each UV photon has
more energy than a red one, so they can add enough energy to cause a chemical
reaction.

~~~
tocomment
So it just needs energy to solidify? Would heat also work?

So the molecules that it's made of up combine into new molecules that are
solid? Do you know what the chemical reaction is?

~~~
ErikHuisman
Watch this movie for a brief introduction on quantum states.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJBcXFsFa7Y>

I've also googled around and found this picture explaining what is called uv
curing.
[http://www.signindustry.com/flatbed_UV/articles/images/2008-...](http://www.signindustry.com/flatbed_UV/articles/images/2008-11-UV_Ink_Reaction_to_.gif)

So basically the uv light is kicking the electrons up multiple levels in the
"photoinitiators", the "photoinitiators" stabilize by dropping levels and
giving off photons. These photons excite the "Monomers" and "Oligomers"
between which electrons can freely flow (radicals) making it possible to form
new bonds, creating longer chains of atoms (a polymer) /amateurexplenation

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tocomment
Any chance the resin/polymer will come down in price if this catches on?

~~~
Vivtek
I'd say that's almost inevitable.

~~~
sbierwagen
Why do programmers always assume every field is just like computing? Not
everything gets cheaper.

Chemistry is a mature industry. Photopolymers are 50+ years old, and
unpatented. There's no real reason to believe UV-cure resin will ever get much
below $100/litre, which is a solid 10 times more expensive than ABS.

~~~
Vivtek
And what's their market size? Why are you assuming there will be no economies
of scale?

------
podperson
About what I paid for my first inkjet printer (because I couldn't afford a
LaserWriter). Or another way of thinking about it -- rather than upgrading to
an FX digital camera this generation, I can skip a generation, live with my
insanely-good-but-not-that-insanely-good DX camera and get one of these.

Obviously, the whole "giving $3000 to someone and trusting them to deliver"
thing is a bit of an issue, but presumably this means _something_ like this is
viable at _something_ like the price of a good printer in 1992.

Hmmm.

~~~
uncoder0
I wonder if calling it a 'Pre-order', on their site, gives customers a better
case if they don't deliver.

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illinx
Slightly off-topic, but does anyone know anything about the 3D printing tech
used by <http://www.shapeways.com/> ? Limited materials are the one thing
holding me back from picking up a desktop 3D printer, so I'd like to learn
more about their tech and what might be holding it back on the desktop. Their
material selection is seriously impressive.

The Formlabs one looks promising and I love the design, but I just don't have
any interest in printing PLA/resin.

~~~
maxerickson
The materials pages discuss the various processes they use:

<http://www.shapeways.com/materials>

A lot of the processes involve replacing a temporary binder.

------
benphelps
<http://3dhomemade.blogspot.com/>

Any relation between the two projects? The design is quite similar.

~~~
ajross
UV resin printers have been a popular research area in the DIY 3D printing
community for the last year or two. There are a few more too. Most are based
on DLP projectors with some hackery to remove the color filters (e.g.
carefully snap off a hundred little pieces of glass from a rotating wheel) as
I understand it, which makes them expensive and fragile for a individual. This
is a situation where volume assembly of a complete device makes more sense
than garage experimentation, so Formlabs' work looks promising to me.

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dragnink
Great looking printer. I'm an owner of a B9, it seems the only disadvantage of
the Formlabs if you can call it that is that the feature size can't be smaller
than 300 microns. For any square, structural shapes the B9 has an advantage
here as it can render x/y pixels down to 50 microns at the smaller build size
and 100 micron pixels at the 4"x3"x8" envelope. In every other situation
however, the laser of the Formlabs I'd think would have the ability to trace
around any curved features with a higher level of precision as it's not
limited by pixel density. SLA is a slower process as the laser has to fill in
each layer until it can transfer to the next layer, whereas DLP projector-
based tech cures an entire layer with each projection cycle. I think the B9
can do about an inch per hour depending on the properties of the resin
formulation. Great to see you guys giving the monopolies some competition,
don't sell out!

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BitMastro
Similar price and technology of B9creator <http://b9creator.com/> (also funded
on kickstarter a few months ago), more info on the technology here
<https://code.google.com/p/lemoncurry/wiki/main>

~~~
knowaveragejoe
It seems the B9 is a tad more expensive and also requires self assembly. I'm
not sure why but their site is also incredibly slow and a pain to use in some
cases. With that said it does appear to have a higher resolution in the Z
plane than the Form 1.

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curtin
In the comparison photos, is the poor quality one from something like a
MakerBot? Maybe I've never seen a close-up photo before, but I always thought
they created higher quality than that.

~~~
jws
Yes it is. Extruded pieces can be pretty gnarly. This is exacerbated at small
feature sizes, which is what you see here, especially on the birdcage which is
about 3cm tall. To be fair, most people would clean that birdcage up a bit
before showing it to anyone.

Most of the objects you see on the page have been cleaned up. For instance,
over the "Accessories - Form Finish kit:" heading you see a part that hasn't
had its temporary supports removed. The bracelet is a little furry on the
bottom. It looks much better near the top of the page where it shows in a
montage after cleaning.

~~~
replicatorblog
That birdcage was actually pre-cleaned to make it look as good as possible.

------
tocomment
So has the FDM process hit it's resolution limits in something like Makerbot
or is there still room for improvement? (I'm curious which process to bet on)

~~~
regularfry
With FDM, the fundamental limit (right now) is the viscosity and surface
tension of the molten plastic. From memory, the Replicator 2 and the Ultimaker
are hovering around that limit - you can make smaller motions with the print
head, but the feature size you get won't really benefit.

With optical cure systems, in theory I think the limit is optical. In
practice, there'll be unavoidable scattering at the focal point which will
blur things a little, but I don't know exactly how much of a problem that is.

------
brador
Anyone know the state of 3d printing tech in China?

Is it popular among hackers there? Any cheap clones at market? Are they up to
speed with US consumer 3d printing tech?

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chromejs10
I don't know about you but I'm extremely excited about this printer. I
currently have a RepRap Prusa but it really is hard to match the quality of
these kinds of printers. The only problem I see is that it sounds like they
are also selling the resin for it and somehow figured out a way to make it
cheaper than most. I'd worry about how long they'd be able to keep up with
selling enough resin for everyone.

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srlake
This makes the Dimension 768 SST we just bought look like a dinosaur. Can't
wait to get one of these on my desk.

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philippK
There is also this project:
[http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/b9creations/b9creator-a-...](http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/b9creations/b9creator-
a-high-resolution-3d-printer)

they also seem to make an optical 3d printer and seem to have actually shipped
some of them already.

------
31reasons
What types of small businesses can be created using portable 3D printers ?

few comes to mind: 1\. Custom toys

2\. 3D self sculptures

3\. Invention classes for kids

~~~
blhack
I know of at least two groups doing custom sex toys with 3D printers.

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Luc
What 'regulatory approval' does it take to ship a printer to e.g. Europe? Is
this to do with CE marks, or shipping chemicals or something? $300 per
customer extra seems rather a lot.

~~~
ReadEvalPost
I'm guessing has to do with the laser. From their FAQ: "Unfortunately, it is
not safe to run the laser without the enclosure." Presumably it's powerful
enough to fall under differing regulation in each country.

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tocomment
I think it would be cool if future models included a FDM head too. That way
you could build in circuits or use ABS as a cheap filler.

~~~
tocomment
After watching the video that may not be feasible. It looks like it's building
the model top down, so extruded plastic would just fall? I was picturing it
building from the bottom up so extruded plastic could rest on the previous
layer.

Is there a chance that conductive resin could be used in the future for
circuits?

------
tocomment
Would you guys say this is a game changer?

~~~
replicatorblog
Yep - My company bought a $50K printer 6 years ago - this one is much better
performance wise. The annual service contract for that one is $10K, so I could
burn through a Form 1 per quarter and come out ahead.

This will change product development the way CMSs changed publishing.

~~~
tisme
You've been telling people to hold off buying a 3D printer from other
manufacturers until this one was unveiled. But I don't get the impression this
is in the product phase yet. There are some slick pictures and a nice
presentation but nothing at all that indicates the thing actually exists in an
about to ship state.

What exactly is the state of development of the formlabs product?

~~~
regularfry
If it's not in the product phase, it's one hell of a prototype. Just from the
video, they've got custom PCBs built, a custom case, and a whole shelf full of
older prototypes.

~~~
tisme
From prototype to product is a (sometimes very) long road, I find it a bit
strange that someone would say 'don't buy 'x' where 'x' is available today
because there exists a prototype from a company that has not yet shipped in
volume.

Maybe my expectations were not realistic but I expected something a lot closer
to production. Tons of things that are prototyped never make it to production
or end up costing substantially more than envisioned at the prototype stage
and I'm pretty wary of pre-ordering things that are not yet in the production
pipeline. Pre-ordering is great if you've ramped up to volume production and
items are about to be shipped. Pre-order money should go the BOM of the device
that will be shipped to you, to shipping, warranty issues and assembly, not to
process/product development. See 'wakemate'.

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epicbuddy
This looks amazing. I have been waiting for this... the quality is top notch!
What a deal too :)

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cdk
Good job guys! The results look amazing and the device itself looks beautiful.

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snogglethorpe
"Windows or Mac"

No thanks.

