
Apple helped make 'top secret' iPod for US government - sjcsjc
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53835079
======
reaperducer
Here's the link to the original article about this, instead of the BBC's less
interesting re-hash of someone else's work:

[https://tidbits.com/2020/08/17/the-case-of-the-top-secret-
ip...](https://tidbits.com/2020/08/17/the-case-of-the-top-secret-ipod/)

~~~
dang
It's good to link to both, but the BBC article does contain some extra
information.

~~~
Groxx
The BBC article is also less than 1/4 of the size, for those not enthused
about reading news in short-story form.

------
csilverman
I look forward to the day when one of these makes an appearance on one of
those prototype/collector forums.

"So my friend who used to work at the DOE was getting rid of some stuff and he
had this iPod, and it looks like a regular iPod but I took a look inside and
does anybody know what the hell this is...?"

~~~
hcarvalhoalves
You bet!

Does anyone have the link to the story about the guy who found a Made in China
power strip w/ a hidden bug inside?

~~~
rockinghigh
You can buy them: [https://www.trackers-cam.com/en/gsm-spy-
microphone/329-gsm-c...](https://www.trackers-cam.com/en/gsm-spy-
microphone/329-gsm-connected-spy-microphone-power-strip.html)

The power strip calls you as soon as it detects a sound.

------
xxpor
I think the focus on nuclear power in the article is naive at best. Bechtel
helps run the national labs, which work on (among other things) nuclear
weapons and anti-proliferation. I would think it's more likely this would be
for anti-proliferation work. Have a CIA asset walk near a suspected nuclear
facility with this in their pocket while looking like a civilian. Collect
radiation data, and if they get arrested or something, it's just an ipod.

~~~
autisticcurio
Its funny really because I never took my uncle seriously in the 90's when he
said I should develop my own Geiger counter amongst other electronic devices.
Of course I didnt realise the significance of the fact he had access to the
Prestel system which the Govt and Royal Family used for messaging before email
became the standard in days when computer hacking was still legal. He also
supplied GCHQ with telecomes equipment. Probably contributes to reasons why he
broke out of HMP Parkhurst and tried to escape the country. If you wrote his
degree titles out in full, it would take half a page of A4 before he could
even start writing a letter.

It makes me wonder what he knew back then, but as I cant visit him, if he is
ever let out, or I dont get another attempt on my life, maybe one day we'll
meet & he'll spill the beans more openly.

Of course, I can get nodules of raw uranium sticking out the soil eroded by
the sea along the Jurassic Coast in Dorset, UK. It doesnt take a rocket
scientist to make a dirty nuke or even a decent nuke. There is enough
information online from reputable sources like the BBC, Youtube showing 50year
WW2 US & UK Govt archive footage and interviews in scientific journals who
worked on the Manhattan Project and other nuclear projects to piece together
the "meta data" in order to make one, including spotting the spurious info
which will make you fail if one should attempt to make one.

~~~
orf
> If you wrote his degree titles out in full, it would take half a page of A4
> before he could even start writing a letter.

No, his full degree titles do not take up 300 words.

If you want to converse online without sounding completely crazy, focus on
reducing the ridiculous hyperbole and stick to short, comprehensive and
digestible statements that flow together and form a cohesive
argument/statement.

~~~
saagarjha
But the comment wasn't intended to be a cohesive argument/statement, it was a
personal anecdote with mild exaggeration for the effect of being entertaining.
I don't see the commenter as crazy at all; at worst a bit overenthusiastic to
share details about their uncle who probably had some sort of security
clearance. Why do you have to be so rude?

~~~
b4ke
The username may hold a clue as to why the individuals communications are a
bit disjointed.

~~~
saagarjha
Perhaps, but it is in no way an excuse to be impolite to them.

~~~
b4ke
Nor was I.... good thing I suppose.

------
philwelch
This reminds me of the Xerox machine in the Soviet Embassy. Xerox embedded a
small camera that recorded every photocopied document on microfilm and
recovered the microfilm for the CIA whenever they serviced the machine.

~~~
ChuckNorris89
So the soviets didn't bother to check the american made Xerox machine for bugs
and just let it rip at their confidential documents? I find that hard to
belive. Got a source?

~~~
philwelch
This is when Xerox machines were first invented; otherwise they would probably
have used a Soviet-produced photocopier instead of using a magical American
machine in the first place.

There are lots of sources but this is one:
[https://electricalstrategies.com/about/in-the-news/spies-
in-...](https://electricalstrategies.com/about/in-the-news/spies-in-the-xerox-
machine/)

~~~
spideymans
If true, that is stunningly naive by the Soviets. Almost too naive. Are we
certain they weren't intentionally feeding the machine bad intelligence?

~~~
philwelch
People in the real world often have terrible opsec. Maybe we take our
instincts about information security for granted these days. Maybe the Soviets
just photocopied their own butts to prank the CIA. I honestly don’t know.

------
tosh
tweet by Tony Fadell (iPod):

    
    
      Absolutely spot on David Shayer…
      This project was real w/o a doubt.
      There was whole surreal drama & interesting story about how this project was kicked off & then kept secret.
    
      The Case of the Top Secret iPod
    
    

[https://twitter.com/tfadell/status/1295727727606104064](https://twitter.com/tfadell/status/1295727727606104064)

~~~
AgloeDreams
(For those not in the know, Tony was the leader of iPod Projects back then,
basically acting as full 100% confirmation of this story being true.)

------
macintux
Some limited discussion on this from a couple of days ago:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24188791](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24188791)

~~~
justinclift
Also:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24205888](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24205888)

------
antihero
> We on the iPod engineering team were impressed. But Apple corporate didn’t
> like it. Starting with the iPod nano, the operating system was signed with a
> digital signature to block the Linux hackers (and others). The boot ROM
> checked the digital signature before loading the operating system; if it
> didn’t match, it wouldn’t boot.

Why oh WHY are companies like this? If we want to put our own OS on a cool bit
of hardware, what is the problem with that? Absolutely shocking mentality that
needs to die (but looks like frankly it is getting worse).

~~~
ben_w
Giving you the freedom to run arbitrarily code on your device means giving
your government the freedom to run arbitrarily code on _your_ device, and it
means giving every hacker on the planet who finds a remote exploit the freedom
to run arbitrarily code on _your_ device.

I don’t mind that freedom being limited to desktops and specialist hardware
like Raspberry Pi and Arduino, and taken away from everything else like a
phone or an MP3 player or a printer.

What’s the saying? The ‘S’ in IoT stands for ‘security’?

~~~
anfilt
You know it's possible to have a signed boot loader without locking the owner
out of the device.

Moreover, I do mind such freedom being taken away.

------
pkaye
> “I have a special assignment for you. Your boss doesn’t know about it.
> You’ll help two engineers from the US Department of Energy build a special
> iPod. Report only to me.

So how does this work in weekly on-on-one meetings with his boss?

~~~
tantalor
Answered here:

> My boss was told I was working on a special project and not to ask
> questions.

~~~
thephyber
If only I could figure out how to get that message to my boss...

~~~
tantalor
Easy, have your boss's boss tell them.

------
kn0where
So Agent Cody Banks was realistic after all:
[https://www.icollector.com/item.aspx?i=16246907&mobile=0](https://www.icollector.com/item.aspx?i=16246907&mobile=0)

------
ChuckNorris89
Can anyone be so kind as to explain to me why did Apple accept to do this work
without contract and payment, as the blog describes?

Engineer hours cost the company time they would otherwise invest in their
current products in development.

Why do it for free? It's not like the US Gov can't afford it.

~~~
Invictus0
There is a cultural precedent here with Graphing Calculator:
[https://www.pacifict.com/Story/](https://www.pacifict.com/Story/)

~~~
dhosek
Not really a precedent, imho, but still a great story.

My favorite part, the last line, "We wanted to release a Windows version as
part of Windows 98, but sadly, Microsoft has effective building security."

------
danans
Nobody has asked it yet,so I will. What is the use case for this device. I
know, the article says "measure radiation without being noticed", but what are
the actual situations where you would want to do that?

Presumably sending spies to gather data on nuclear weapons production sites?
Wouldn't those sites have crazy operational security and would confiscate
things like iPods before entering anyways?

Or is the idea to detect facilities that are building dirty-bombs in dense
urban areas (a-la some scene set in middle-eastern country X from the show
'Homeland')

~~~
widforss
The use case for the iPod could be anything, but one time that Swedish
authorities wanted to covertly measure radiation was during Whiskey on the
rocks
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_S-363](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_S-363)).
They pulled up small boats beside the sub and put Geiger counters directly
against the hull while pretending to do something else.

~~~
js2
Just goes to show, you really should take your whiskey neat.

------
ianmobbs
Here's the link to the original article - [https://tidbits.com/2020/08/17/the-
case-of-the-top-secret-ip...](https://tidbits.com/2020/08/17/the-case-of-the-
top-secret-ipod/)

------
ChuckMcM
If you've looked at the open source particle detector[1] you see that the
"sensor" can be a reverse biased diode. Nothing very fancy.

[1]
[https://github.com/ozel/DIY_particle_detector](https://github.com/ozel/DIY_particle_detector)

------
suyash
Why would you go through the pain of all this, just make the copy of the case
and mimic the software UI - underneath it can be all of your custom hardware
and software. No need to bother Apple. This is how most of the fake iPhones
are made in China.

~~~
pritovido
Because it takes tens of millions of dollars to replicate the functionality of
the Ipod-Iphone.

Chinese do it in a completely different way, using prefabricated components.

Secret services can not use prefabricated Chinese components because those
need to be audited and that cost millions too.

So using already made American companies components' is the obvious solution.
It just cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.

~~~
exikyut
> _already made American companies components '_ made in china

FTFY

------
emptyparadise
This makes me wonder, I know Linux can run on some iPods, but did anybody ever
run homebrew apps or games on the native iPod OS?

~~~
pronoiac
I remembered there were third-party games available on the iPod, but checking
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPod_game](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPod_game)
, it doesn't look like an SDK ever made it to the public.

~~~
emptyparadise
Yeah, I'm amazed that there aren't any homebrew ones.

------
elchin
Assuming this is all true - how does something like this leak? Wouldn't
someone go to prison for the leak?

~~~
ocdtrekkie
Reasonable possibility nobody involved signed an NDA or filled out any
paperwork, given how unofficial it was. It's been fifteen years, it's likely
the hardware in question is long deprecated in favor of covert hardware that
looks like a modern smartphone or something.

~~~
InitialLastName
Right, someone walking around carrying an iPod has gone from notable to
mundane and back to notable. No longer the way to blend in.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
It's also possibly one of the reasons we're so worried about Huawei here in
the US right now: We know what our guys can do. We may know a fair bit about
what China can or has done. And nobody wants to talk specifically about what
those things are.

------
kodablah
Can I see one and inspect the hardware? Remember, we discounted Bloomberg's
story concerning SuperMicro implants (likely justifiably) for not having
hardware and not naming sources. Does this story about the ability for
hardware to be altered from a large manufacturer at the behest of the
government with so few knowing about it for so long (even within the company),
unreported by anyone else, and not going on record with their names about it
until way later give any credence to other similar stories that may not yet be
at the reveal names and insider info stage?

(to clarify, I believe this story and am skeptical of the Bloomberg one, I
just find the 15-year secrecy and limited scope notable)

~~~
nojito
There's a reason why Bloomberg didn't retract the story.

The idea that senior execs know everything that happens at their respective
company is borderline nonsense.

~~~
lawnchair_larry
> There's a reason why Bloomberg didn't retract the story.

Not a valid one. The story was false.

~~~
toast0
I honestly suspect the reporter was at least very confused, but the firmware
for the BMC on SuperMicro boards has had some serious security vulnerabilities
from time to time --- I wonder if that's the base of story, and it got
confused from there.

------
rohit89
> Only four people at Apple knew about this secret project. Me, the director
> of iPod Software, the vice president of the iPod Division, and the senior
> vice president of Hardware.

Not even Steve Jobs? Shouldn't this have been his decision?

~~~
garmaine
I doubt Steve Jobs would have submitted to the burdens of getting and
retaining top secret clearance.

~~~
getpost
Jobs had a top secret clearance.
[https://www.informationweek.com/desktop/steve-jobs-the-
fbi-f...](https://www.informationweek.com/desktop/steve-jobs-the-fbi-
file/d/d-id/1102747)

~~~
garmaine
For only about two years in the late 80’s.

------
hazeii
Apple are generally considered to be best when it comes to protecting their
user's privacy (edit: issues like this aside).

It does make me wonder what the others are doing.

~~~
dastx
No, Apple wants you to think they're the best when it comes to protecting
user's privacy.

Don't forget Apple was one of the many companies part of the PRISM program.

~~~
azinman2
Talk to any engineer at Apple and they’ll tell you that privacy is involved
with every feature development and pervades every discussion internally. It’s
not a facade.

~~~
xvector
Friend used to be a security engineer at Apple and was thoroughly
disillusioned with their privacy stance after working there for three years.

------
t0mas88
Many years ago I worked on open source MP3 player firmware at Rockbox.org, we
created a feature to develop skins for the UI so you could make it look
exactly like the original firmware if you wanted. Why wouldn't they use that,
from the secrecy of their own office, instead of asking Apple (or any other
manufacturer) to participate and risk the kind of "leak" that we see now?

------
foobarbecue
I'm amused that the Apple's IPod software team developed on windows machines.
(from [https://tidbits.com/2020/08/17/the-case-of-the-top-secret-
ip...](https://tidbits.com/2020/08/17/the-case-of-the-top-secret-ipod/) )

~~~
AdmiralAsshat
I'll bet that many of the people who worked on iTunes probably developed on
Windows as well. I'm sure Apple would _prefer_ that every iPod user own a Mac,
but at the time it launched, the market would've been like 90% PC, so surely
there would've been an incentive to ensure compatibility with your dominant
user-base.

~~~
sleepychu
> I'm sure Apple would prefer that every iPod user own a Mac

Not if it's an old mac ;-) I was an early iPod touch adopter (bought with
X-mas money IIRC). Plugged it into my iBook G4 and was informed the version of
iTunes was both too old and the latest this laptop was going to get.

Plugged it into a Windows 2000/XP machine (which I think was already old for
the time) and it managed to get the latest version of iTunes.

Now of course, I'm aware of the context of the PPC to Intel shift and that
there was a non-zero cost to maintaining both streams of iTunes build but it
really put me off Apple at the time.

------
nikk1
I doubt this project was "Top Secret" ... If it was, I doubt we would be
reading about it here...

~~~
dplavery92
If Shayer's (in turn, Apple's) participation were classified, he would be
looking at a serious criminal offense for writing the article. The hardware
and functionality of the devices that the Bechtel engineers were integrating,
about which Shayer only speculates, could well have been so classified,
though.

------
mleonhard
I expect that the real purpose of the project was simply to let those two
engineers learn iPod development. Afterward, they had the expertise and
software tools to make an iPod do many things, not just collect data.

------
riffic
Apple will neither confirm nor deny the existence of such a project.

------
basicplus2
I guess everyone on HN is checking their discs for hidden partions now...

------
tossAfterUsing
related?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet#History](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet#History)

~~~
easton
Maybe, but that wouldn’t necessarily require modifications to the iPod. iPods
could be used as USB external drives and you could just load it on there
without having to mess with the OS at all.

------
aaron695
This will be Stuxnet.

This has nothing to do with a geiger counter or measuring radioactivity.

Watch the doco Zero Days. It's an ok round up of Stuxnet.

~~~
r12477
Stuxnet has been well broken down and described. It had nothing to do with
iPods with surreptitious recording capabilities.

~~~
aaron695
Since you are an expert, can you explain the zero day that would be needed to
get Stuxnet onto the SCADA/first computer?

Obviously the final product might not have used this iPod. It was a huge
operation on many levels with failed projects. This iPod also obviously might
not have been for recording, since that's a level one misdirect, oh it's
secret spy recording device, person who's watched to much James Bond.

But how did they do the 'usb' zero day since you know it isn't a iPod?

------
jakobmartz3
Wow, interesting read. Wonder what else they do to normal apple products.

------
viro
yup they helped a spy not get killed ....

~~~
viro
legit why did this get downvoted?...

------
runako
Blogspam from [https://tidbits.com/2020/08/17/the-case-of-the-top-secret-
ip...](https://tidbits.com/2020/08/17/the-case-of-the-top-secret-ipod/)

------
aresant
__

~~~
Nasrudith
Get this straight - it was essentially bribing four of their workers to make
an "authenic" iPod that had added functionality to secretly gather it. An
overpriced pork bespoke hardware hacking project, not adding bugs to every
iPod produced or anything. If anything they would be annoyed not grateful over
the covert poaching and they certainly would get blocked if they tried to sue
anyone over it but the losses were petty/background cost of doing business
anyway.

There isn't any factual basis where that incident contribuites to that
fallacious narrative. If I were a plumber and doing work on a CIA building
they might do a background check so deep that it finds and analyzes any colon
polyps to ensure I won't be planting any bugs in the plumbing but it doesn't
mean "I am pretty much the CIA."

~~~
ghshephard
Even less - it was asking for some tech support from Apple to learn how to
hack Apple Hardware with their _own_ (Bechtel) engineers - the actual
hardware/software was done by Bechtel. Given this particular engineer is
talking about it - they didn't have to undergo security clearance (if they
had, they wouldn't be talking about it. Ever.)

All apple did was provide a little bit of JTAG/Build/Source Code support. The
rest was up to a third party.

------
jacksonpollock
what's an ipod?

------
marvindanig
Ahem, ahem. Would it be surprising if such a "crazy cool technology" is
embedded into the AirPods of late and being used by your political opponents?

~~~
babypuncher
How do you suppose AirPods with a built-in hidden Geiger counter could be used
to attack political opponents?

~~~
marvindanig
Ah, reaction is often telling. Thank you downvoters. ;-)

