
Gitlab Saleswomen “told to wear short skirts, heels and 'step it up'” - notkaiho
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/02/06/gitlab_sales_women/
======
ackshually
That's... not what the source says at all. Very aggressive editorialising for
rage clicks.

~~~
happytoexplain
The "step it up" is true and low-class even in context, but was directed at
both sexes. Of course, being disrespectful to twice as many people would be
worse, not better.

The rest is also true, except the author apparently didn't know that the
hanging part of a dress and a skirt aren't synonymous (I don't think so
anyway). But that has no relevance to what makes it deserving of "rage", as
you say, so what are you actually referring to?

~~~
wjnc
Would you mind explaining how "step it up", which I read as "stepping up the
dress code" is low-class? For me there is a natural progression from sports
wear, to casual, to business casual, to business, to cocktail casual, to
cocktail, to black / white tie.

And since we all have that one friend or colleague that's always two levels
below the stipulated dress code, I also understand the urge to explain it in
male / female terms. It's just more specific. If I extend my sympathy to the
non-binaries, I could understand that the dividors "Men:" and "Women:" could
have been dropped in the explanation. But why is that such a big thing?

~~~
nabnob
Because the dress code for women is more sexualized than the dress code for
men, and also expects women to wear heels, something that's not healthy and
bad for your joints.

~~~
belorn
A common reason for the anti-necktie sentiment among workers is that the tie
represent a symbol of submission and slavery (i.e., having a symbolic chain
around one's neck), marking which males are lower on the social ladder and
thus unsuitable mates.

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holstvoogd
They literally link to the previous post on HN:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22231548](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22231548)

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kmlx
were the men asked to "buff it up", have beards and only wear suits, ties and
dress shoes?

seriously, this whole thing with telling people what to wear and how to act is
depressing.

~~~
unishark
Everyone was told to "step it up". The words are twisted pretty far in that
story. What they asked for was business casual for daytime then "step it up"
with cocktail causal in the awards dinner, giving details what that entailed
for men and women.

~~~
happytoexplain
>giving details what that entailed for men and women

Why did you stop there?

~~~
unishark
Laziness mainly, why? It was a screenshot and couldn't be cut-and-pasted. Are
you suggesting I twisted words too with my summary?

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bluesign
This is the dress code, if you google cocktail casual, it is short dress +
hills.

Also stepping up for both men and women, from business casual to cocktail
casual

~~~
CrazyStat
I googled cocktail casual and I got everything from nice jeans to calf-length
(midi) and even longer dresses.

~~~
stringyham
Most of (not all) my results are above the knee skirts.

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placer
According to reference.com, “cocktail casual” is not formally defined:
“Traditional cocktail attire usually consists of knee length dresses for
women, dark suits with a tie for men and fancy shoes for both. Cocktail
casual, however, [...] has not yet been concretely defined. It means different
things to different people, so partygoers who know the host well should feel
free to ask for more specific instructions.”

Knee-length dresses (i.e. “short dresses”) seem to reasonably fall under the
definition of “cocktail casual”. For example: [https://www.clbxg.com/Cocktail-
Casual/](https://www.clbxg.com/Cocktail-Casual/)

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deweller
Headline: "Told to wear short skirts..."

Actual email: "We ask that you wear...short but somewhat formal dress and
heels"

~~~
krapp
The issue here is not whether a skirt is a dress, but the implications behind
the qualifier "short," which are the same both for skirts and dresses,
notwithstanding that a "short but somewhat formal dress" and a "short skirt"
are functionally the same.

~~~
QUCLvAdF0L
I think the implications are "don't wear a gown" and "wear a plain (this is a
business event, not a social one) knee-high dress," since this describes the
vast majority of dresses that turn up when I search for "cocktail casual."
Anything above thigh-high would indeed be short, but hardly formal.

~~~
gremlinsinc
And if the person is transitioning f->m or is non-binary and is offended by
the requirement that they dress in a dress at all?

Maybe they'd be more comfortable in a tuxedo, or a pant-suit.

Maybe they have a scar on their leg and they're self-conscious about and gives
them trauma the thought of showing off their legs...

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meztez
And men told to wear blazer/sport coat, slacks, suit and 'step it up'. I don't
see malice in the statement, it is just poorly worded.

~~~
happytoexplain
It's hard to believe you think that asking a man to wear a suit and asking a
woman to wear heels and a short dress are comparable in terms of respect.

~~~
wvlia5
A construction worker has to wear dirty clothes.

A stripper, no clothes.

A clown, ridiculous clothes.

Different positions require different clothing. If you don't like your job, be
it for clothing or what have you, you can quit.

~~~
nkrisc
The funny thing about the examples you gave is that whether a man or woman,
the clothing is the same. You're not making the point I think you're trying to
make.

A male and female construction worker both wear dirty clothes and a hard hat.

A male and female stripper both wear no clothes.

A male and female clown both wear ridiculous clothes.

Whereas apparently male salesmen should be wearing short skirts and high
heels? Or only women? That's the problem.

~~~
wvlia5
High heels and skirt for females and suit and tie for males is what's
considered elegant in traditional western fashion.

It could also be pink hats for men and and yellow umbrellas for women. Or
white clothes for the elderly and brown clothes for the young. Or any other
arbitrary rule.

Besides, suppose I have a shop and I discovered I sell more if I make men
dress ridiculous, women dress erotic and elderly dress funny. So I require a
dress code according to age/sex in order to optimize sales. What's the
problem? Don't take the job if you don't want to

~~~
krapp
> High heels and skirt for females and suit and tie for males is what's
> considered elegant in traditional western fashion.

But the dress code wasn't "high heels and skirt," it was high heels and
_short_ skirts.

Men weren't being asked to unbutton their shirts to show off their pecs, or to
wear tight pants to show off their bulge, but women were being asked to show
off their legs and asses, at least implicitly.

~~~
wvlia5
So? Why can't I have a company in which some people are required to show their
asses and not others, based on some arbitrary rule? That's the way I sell and
employees can choose to stay or leave

~~~
krapp
>Why can't I have a company in which some people are required to show their
asses and not others, based on some arbitrary rule? That's the way I sell and
employees can choose to stay or leave

First, it opens you up to massive sexual harassment and discrimination
liability issues, and it's probably not even legal.

Second, the bad publicity will drive away good hires and lose you sales, so
it's not even good business, unless maybe you're a pimp.

Third, it would make you a regressive, sexist jerk.

~~~
wvlia5
1- That only shows there are laws which are pretty dumb.

2- that's just your hypothesis. In my example I made the opposite hypothesis.
That's irrelevant in any case.

3- The greatest jerk is the one who tries to impose their own preferences to
prevent deals that have been freely accepted by all the parties involved.

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PaulHoule
A story I've heard more than once is that techie people are intimidated by
(for lack of a better term) sexy saleswomen and that actually somebody like my
mother-in-law who has had a lifetime to develop customer service skills is
often more effective.

~~~
gremlinsinc
I can see where overt sexualization could be a distraction... like dressed as
a model or something...esp when I was younger.

Girl next door, or soccer mom might less intimidating as well as the MIL for
social anxiety types...

A lot of geeks have social anxiety, and are like Raj from big bang theory
around the opposite sex -though I think you grow out of it when you're in your
30's esp if married and have to live with a woman.

Also dressing like a model could have an air of elitism or superiority if
they're wearing like something that cost > $2k obviously.

So, I could see that also being a hinderance, people like to deal with people
similar to them, or at least I could see it easier to build a rapport.

That probably goes both ways though regardless of sex. Like a car salesman in
a normal suit with a mickey mouse watch or one in something a boy band artist
would wear with an expensive rolex lol.

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GrayTextIsTruth
> it is common practice for male executives to have female subordinates take
> responsibility when things go wrong

I’m gonna go out in a limb here and say it’s common for _any_ executive to
pass the buck to _any_ subordinate. It’s human nature to not want blame.

~~~
xtian
> It’s human nature to not want blame.

That’s not human nature, it’s a pathological, immature state of mind.

~~~
azangru
> it’s a pathological, immature state of mind

The word "pathological", presumably, means "deviating from the normal". The
word "normal", in its turn, has two distinct meanings: one that is about what
is desirable, the other is about what is common. On these grounds, and
according to the second meaning of the word "normal", I would argue that fear
is not pathological, nor is the desire to escape blame. It's quite normal.
Whether some people can control this desire is the question.

~~~
xtian
That’s not what pathological means at all…

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newnewpdro
At the relevant companies I've worked this didn't need to be explicitly told
to the sales people.

The monetary incentives put in place already had all the saleswomen attending
events dolled up to the max, because it directly affected their bottom line in
a substantial way.

