
Why the British Are Better at Satire - samclemens
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/why-the-british-are-better-at-satire/384964/?single_page=true
======
bruceb
Yes Minister. One of the smartest (and timeless) comedies of all time. The
power play between politicians, bureaucrats, and the public/business. The
series is better than a Political Science course.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes_Minister](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes_Minister)
#5 in this poll
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britain%27s_Best_Sitcom](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britain%27s_Best_Sitcom)

Start with a classic "Open Government"
[http://www.veoh.com/watch/v21037637mzbJZ9n4?h1=Yes+Minister+...](http://www.veoh.com/watch/v21037637mzbJZ9n4?h1=Yes+Minister+1.1++-+Open+Government)

~~~
ctrijueque
If you want to know more about 'Yes, Minister'check this book:

A Very Courageous Decision: The Inside Story of Yes Minister

[http://www.amazon.com/Very-Courageous-Decision-Inside-
Minist...](http://www.amazon.com/Very-Courageous-Decision-Inside-Minister-
ebook/dp/B00OG8CLI6/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1424235470&sr=8-12&keywords=yes+minister)

------
stupidcar
As a Brit, I think this rather overstates the case. Take The Thick Of It. The
article says there's no likeable protagonist, but Hugh Abbott, Nicola Murray,
Peter Mannion are not unsympathetic characters, even if they're generally
incompetent. I don't find the tone of Veep to be particularly less excoriating
than The Thick Of It. If anything the members of Selina's team seem to be even
more abusive to one another.

Whenever there's a discussion of US vs UK comedy and satire, I see the same
cliches about unlikable protagonists and winners vs losers being trotted out,
and I wonder if I'm watching the same shows as everyone else. Are the
characters of Arrested Development likeable winners? Or Delocated? Or Bojack
Horseman? Or Girls? Or Always Sunny?

~~~
JimmyM
Bojack Horseman in particular has a tone and style close enough to British
satirical cartoon Monkey Dust that it's a fantastic counter-example to a
significant America-Britain disconnect. It also fits the bill in terms of
being actual satire, however soft the target might be.

In turn, Metalocalypse - another spot-on satire of an off-beat target - is
American. So is Best In Show, and for that matter This Is Spinal Tap is
American.

Always Sunny is another great example, and I'm thinking of ever more now - I
mean, Seinfeld would be the quintessential example of unlikeable losers
losing, no? Or Frasier?

The remake of House of Cards is hilarious for a different reason, in that it
resembles a telenovela set in the White House. "Push her down the stairs! Push
her down the stairs!" as the cast of Friends might chant.

I don't necessarily believe in a huge gap between America and Britain in terms
of satire, but I do think there's some structural difference that enabled a
particular class of Britons to criticise the establishment with impunity -
primarily disillusioned public schoolboys, and later Oxbridge types. My
impression (it may easily be wrong) is that it is this class from which most
of our overtly political satire has come from.

------
estefan
It's not just satire: Irony, sarcasm, comedy above the level of a 5 year old
(i.e. where there's more than just a setup immediately followed by a
predictable punchline: "Don't open the box Tommy!" Tommy opens the box, etc.).

Classic quote: Speaking to an American about not having ridden a motorbike in
years, my brother said "I'm sure it'll come back to me - it'll just be like
riding a bike". The girl replied in all seriousness "Well, it IS riding a
bike."

Our appreciation of comedy must be different (or there's NIH syndrome), or
Americans wouldn't keep remaking British comedies.

We aren't as good at being loud though, so we don't have it all...

~~~
arethuza
"We aren't as good at being loud though"

In what context? I can think of a few situations where the British are world
leaders in being loud and obnoxious - one of our main summer exports I'd have
thought?

~~~
estefan
Ah yes! I'm so unconsciously middle class I forgot about the Magaluf crowds,
etc.

~~~
john_other_john
Nah, at the fringes of east London's trendy "digital" parts, you can hear
marital type arguments launched clearly across whole estate (project)
courtyards, any given weekend..

Anyhow what was that about being so bad about being loud SPEAK UP DEAR, I
CAN'T HEAR YOU?

------
SeanDav
At times my work has brought me into contact with Americans and in general
they just do not get sarcasm and satire. Obviously not true of everyone but in
general in my experience, Americans (not sure about Canadians) take things
that you say very literally. Take my advice, when dealing with people from the
USA, as a default, avoid irony/sarcasm/satire and even humour until or unless
you know they will appreciate it. Not just in a business environment, (where
it is a bad idea to attempt this with anyone) but all initial interaction.

Not a crticism, just a reality.

~~~
conradfr
You can see that if you look at U.S adaptation of Britain or French series or
movies, they often lose the tongue-in-cheek humor (if that term makes sense)
in the process.

The Office U.S became great when they stopped copying the U.K version and I
don't think it's just a difference of bleakness as the article states.

~~~
PMan74
Office U.S. and U.K. are really different shows, US Office dropped all
pretence of the reality/mockumentary, veering toward more unreal set-ups.
Apples and oranges. Both are great, just different.

~~~
Amezarak
> Office U.S. and U.K. are really different shows, US Office dropped all
> pretence of the reality/mockumentary,

Did it? The US office continued the "looks" at the camera, the interviews; at
one point the documentary crew was attacked (and it turned out he was in love
with Pam), Jim had them make a video for Pam, and the very last episodes were
about the documentary airing and a panel interviewing them about how they felt
about their lives being filmed for nine years.

------
gadders
It does have a downside though. Speaking as a Brit, the kind of generous,
unqualified praise that Americans seem to dish out to each other at the drop
of a hat (EG You are so awesome, you are such an inspiration to me, I am so
glad I have you in my life etc etc) tends to make a Brit think they are being
mocked, as no British person would say something like that unless talking to
their family on their death bed.

~~~
bencollier49
As a Brit who is occasionally effusive in his sincere praise of other people
and things, I frequently suffer as a result.

I remember once enthusiastically complimenting a groundsman on his ride-on-
lawnmower, resulting in my being subjected to a torrent of abuse.

Incidentally, I think South Africans are even worse at spotting insincerity
and facetiousness than Americans.

------
r00fus
Could it because the BBC (state owned television) effectively nurtures small
series and lets them run for far longer than you would have in the US market,
which suffers from both viewer and producer short attention span?

Essentially, not trying to have a hit for every show results in a far greater
overall success rate.

If so, the analogy between the TV show market and startup scene could be
instructive (i.e., nurtured small investments across the board rather than "go
big or go home" every time).

~~~
mcjiggerlog
I think you've got it the wrong way round, actually. British shows typically
run for a 6 episode series and then might go several years before a new series
is produced. The Thick Of It has had 24 episodes since its inception in 2005,
whereas its US adaption has already had 28 since 2012. Armando Ianucci (the
writer) has straight up stated that he won't write any more The Thick Of It
until he feels he has material worthy of new episodes.

I think it's the US networks putting pressure on writers to produce produce
produce which ends up being the difference between the perfection of The Thick
Of It and the greatness of Veep (in my opinion).

~~~
pluma
What's more, the British seem to have no qualms about simply ending a series
when they think there's nothing more to add.

Consider Spaced: the cast and the audience loved it, but the story had come to
a conclusion after the second series and the circumstances that originally
gave birth to the ideas had changed, so they refused to consider another
series.

Contrast this with American shows which typically only end if they get
cancelled and where success is measured in how often you can get a new series
funded.

~~~
timje1
There are plenty of American shows that should have been cancelled after a
single season, but weren't because they were popular.

Stuff like Prison Break, Heroes. In fact Prison Break's season 1 had a very
clear, obvious conclusion (they broke out) - so there was no clear path for
the story to take after that. In Britain it would not have been picked up for
a second series.

------
rhino369
I wonder how difference between TV show productions affects this. Broadcoast
TV shows in America are expected to run 22 episodes a year. In the Thick of It
has made about that many episodes over 7.5 years. I don't think you can get
people to watch that much biting satire in such a small time period.

But I think in the end, American audiences want to see the good in people,
especially the main characters. If not good, at least some humanity.

~~~
jonnathanson
_" But I think in the end, American audiences want to see the good in people,
especially the main characters."_

I used to work in TV series development. One of the ongoing legends in the TV
development business is how every American TV exec loves _Fawlty Towers_ , and
even though everyone's tried to adapt it for American TV, none of their
attempts has been successful. The reason being that American audiences need
the protagonist to be "likable," and making the John Cleese character
"likable" totally saps the comedic power of the show.

I suspect there's more to it than that. _Fawlty Towers_ plays to some
decidedly more British cultural issues surrounding class and social climbing.
Also, it's really freaking hard to find someone who can fill Cleese's shoes.
Nevertheless, the likability issue is a big one.

~~~
TylerE
Is that really true? See, for instance, House: MD.

~~~
dagw
House is smart, confident, funny, always right and always wins in the end
(well almost) against the 'idiots' that surround him. Even when he seems to
suffer setbacks they are always minor and he always twists the world to his
will to get out of them. The destruction and pain he inflicts on the world
never touch him.

I think a lot of people like House, not necessarily as someone they'd want to
work with, but as someone they'd want to be like.

------
shazzy
On the subject of Prime Minister's Questions here are some clips showing how
rowdy it can get;

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1iL2jGZiZw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1iL2jGZiZw)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUqhqsfE0YQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUqhqsfE0YQ)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVs1jN85w10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVs1jN85w10)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUX9LvYlAps](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUX9LvYlAps)

~~~
higherpurpose
Those look a lot like political rap battles.

~~~
oneeyedpigeon
You mean like this?

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YBumQHPAeU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YBumQHPAeU)

(Edit: NSFW)

------
jgrahamc
Is there any equivalent in the US of Private Eye:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_Eye](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_Eye)?

Here's a recent cover: [http://www.private-
eye.co.uk/covers.php?showme=1383](http://www.private-
eye.co.uk/covers.php?showme=1383) and another: [http://www.private-
eye.co.uk/covers.php?showme=1378](http://www.private-
eye.co.uk/covers.php?showme=1378)

~~~
Someone1234
Daily Show/John Oliver/Colbert are the closest the US comes as far as I know.
Maybe South Park occasionally?

Although both the Daily Show and Colbert have now wrapped up. And John Oliver
is more like 60 minutes (before they sold out) than Private Eye.

~~~
wwweston
Also, John Oliver is... British.

~~~
L_Rahman
His television persona however is very much a construct that owes itself to
his time on American cable television, specifically the Daily Show.

~~~
Doctor_Fegg
It's not too different from the Now Show on (BBC) Radio 4.

------
runewell
I do love the PMQs of British politics. US Congress is not nearly as
entertaining, we tend to have hour long monologues with lots of charts and
little debate.

US politics does have it's moments though ...

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPwW8nBVc0g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPwW8nBVc0g)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d_FvgQ1csE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d_FvgQ1csE)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcsNbQRU5TI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcsNbQRU5TI)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dvq2tha6heU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dvq2tha6heU)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u54H2sV-0Hc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u54H2sV-0Hc)

~~~
kbelbina
great set of links :-)

------
femto
Maybe it's driven by the UK's libel laws, and lack of a First Amendment?

In the US, the media can report on powerful people, then claim protection from
the US constitution.

In the UK, there is no such protection, so reporting facts about powerful
people is a dangerous business. Instead, the strategy is to turn the events
into a satire. One has to walk a fine line with the satire. It has to be
realistic enough that the audience can have an inkling about who is being
referred to. At the same time, it has to ridiculous enough that no powerful
person will be prepared to turn themselves into a laughing stock by claiming
that the satire is actually refers to themselves, which would be the
implication of a claim of libel.

~~~
code_duck
Interesting that the British have basically been doing this for hundreds of
years. In medieval times, the court jester could speak freely and criticize
the king in a way no others were allowed to.

[http://alumnus.caltech.edu/~ckank/FultonsLair/013/nock/jeste...](http://alumnus.caltech.edu/~ckank/FultonsLair/013/nock/jester.html)

~~~
m-i-l
And more than 150 years of Punch magazine:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punch_(magazine)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punch_\(magazine\))

------
lucozade
I think our friends across the pond are doing themselves a disservice. We need
satirical TV because our politics is largely inanity e.g. Question Time or
slapstick e.g. PMQs.

The US has a system that allows them to have Sarah Palin run for VP. You can't
write that stuff, it's comedy gold.

~~~
cmdkeen
Armando Iannucci said he stopped writing The Thick Of It because too many of
his mad plot lines were coming true and he was afraid to predict even madder
things.

~~~
Doctor_Fegg
Conversation with a friend who works at the heart of (UK) Government:

Me: "Is it really like the Thick of It?" Them: "No. It's worse. Much, much
worse."

------
petegrif
This is culturally related to the US dislike of dark comedy. Very few movies
in this genre have ever been successful in the US whereas they are a stock in
trade in Europe. (Dr Strangelove, Bad Santa...??)

~~~
Crito
The Coen Brothers' _Burn After Reading_ and _Fargo_.

Also I'd argue _MASH_ , which was _massively_ successful, though that might be
stretching dark comedy. Depends on the episode I guess.

~~~
coldtea
MASH maybe.

Burn After Reading and Fargo, not so much. Not that they weren't dark -- just
that they weren't a success in any mainstream way, especially the first.

~~~
TylerE
Fargo made over 8x it's budget in income on the original theatrical run.
That's major success.

For comparison, a traditional american "happy comedy", Happy Gilmore released
the same year, made a third less despite costing almost twice as much.

~~~
coldtea
> _Fargo made over 8x it 's budget in income on the original theatrical run.
> That's major success._

Well, it's budget was a tiny (by Hollywood) $7 million, so that's not saying
much.

~~~
TylerE
Back then that wasn't nearly as small as it sounds like. Even the massive
summer CGI-fest of the year, Independence Day, was only a $75m budget.

~~~
coldtea
That's mostly because the Independence Day director was known for being very
cost-effective and frugal. It was a blockbuster, but didn't start as a big
spending production like the Titanic for example.

But even that is 10 times what Fargo cost already.

Sub 10 million have been small peanuts in Hollywood even in the eighties, by
Fargo's time a movie was not even taken seriously by big studios if it had
such a budget.

Heck -- an A-list actor would command 10-15 million just for himself.

~~~
jeremysmyth
Burn After Reading had Brad Pitt and George Clooney. Can't get much more
A-list than that. It also had John Malkovich and Tilda Swinton, who are no
lightweights. And it came in at a budget of under 40M.

------
sjclemmy
I think Parks and Recreation is a great example of American satire. I get the
impression that local government in the US is as dysfunctional as it is here
(in the UK) and, let's face it, that's a great source of comedy.

------
kokey
I found political satire to be a very good way to learn about British politics
and a bit of culture before, during and after I lived in the UK. I have looked
for something similar in Ireland, and even with a country that has some shared
history and a lot of exposure to British culture, it doesn't seem to be able
to replicate it.

~~~
tfgg
Not sure what you mean, the Rubberbandits do a pretty good job:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWfZ4Pw0_oE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWfZ4Pw0_oE)

------
venomsnake
And no mention of the best of breed - "The new statesman" with Rick Mayall ...
he will be sorely missed.

------
j3h
I think it has a lot to do with attention span. Watch any typical British
Comedy, although littered with occasional quips, the main joke is an episode
in the making and delivered with full flourish long after an American audience
has switched to another show. There's a reason Benny Hill was popular here!

------
known
'Sarcasm' brain areas discovered

[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4566319.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4566319.stm)

------
ojbyrne
Saturday Night Live has done good political satire over the years.

~~~
coldtea
They have made jokes about politics. Not satire of the British level.

------
baldfat
New England's native tongue is sarcasm and I think we do it just great (no
sarcasm)

BUT people who hate sarcasm I just LOVE them.

