
Venezuelan ship sinks itself after ramming cruise liner with a reinforced hull - harambae
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/32853/this-venezuelan-patrol-ship-sunk-itself-after-ramming-a-cruise-liner-with-an-reinforced-hull
======
ansible
This is insane. I can't imagine what was going through the Venezuelan
captain's head trying to do this.

It's one thing if the shooting is already started to defend yourself. But even
if this stunt had worked, you're looking at many months of downtime while your
ship is being repaired in drydock. Millions of dollars, and bigtime loss of
capability for a _small_ navy.

Unless you are an icebreaker, you just don't intentionally hit _anything_
(tugboats _nudge_ after gently making contact, they do not _ram_ ).

If this cruise liner was not following instructions (seems more like an act of
piracy than legit, but that is another discussion), then you fire a shot or
two off the bow of the offending ship. That _usually_ gets people's attention.

Ramming? WTF?

~~~
js2
I mean, less crazy than trying to ram a ship with a locomotive I suppose:

[https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-
updates/2020/0...](https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-
updates/2020/04/02/825897966/train-engineer-says-he-crashed-in-attempt-to-
attack-navy-hospital-ship-in-l-a)

[https://in.reuters.com/video/watch/idOVC7T0OCH](https://in.reuters.com/video/watch/idOVC7T0OCH)

Strange days.

~~~
paulmd
haha, what's the under/over on this guy being a q-anon freak?

~~~
iron0013
He is one.

~~~
Fjolsvith
Nah, this is a deep state false flag operation turned comic relief. To think
this was QAnon is to not know anything about QAnon.

~~~
iron0013
^ yikes

------
hirundo
The Venezuelan ship had a 76mm gun, maybe one like this:

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/OTO_Melara_76_mm](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/OTO_Melara_76_mm)

Why would you ram when you could shoot up the other ship with 85 to 120
fourteen pound shells per minute, with no risk to your own ship?

Maybe they didn't actually have the ammo. Or maybe they decided to play
chicken with the cruise ship and lost.

~~~
battery_cowboy
Those shells will do nothing to stop the ship but will just kill a lot of
people for no gains. If they wanted to seize the ship, they should have
brought a boarding party with them, I'm sure they have trained sailors for
that.

Source: I'm a former naval officer and I served as an ordnance officer on a
ship with that exact 76mm gun. I also acted as the officer of the deck for
quite a few boardings.

~~~
elorant
So how do you stop a cruiser like that?

~~~
FireBeyond
With a boarding party via helicopter or specialized boarding craft (fast boats
and rapeling?).

~~~
derefr
And how do you stop a ship if you consider it a biohazard and don’t want it to
get near your dock (and also don’t have the equipment to safely board it
without effectively throwing your sailors’ lives away), but it’s insistently
coming in anyway? (Perhaps because it’s a “ship of the dead”, drifting
unmanned toward your port. Or because it’s, say, just a big barge carrying a
pile of tires that’s on fire.)

...would a sufficient number of depth charges work?

~~~
battery_cowboy
You wouldn't you'd just let them try to dock and not supply any personnel to
take the docking lines. If they try to do it by sending their own folks to
shore, you arrest them as if you would arrest any other trespasser. If it is
an empty ship, you take some tugboats and redirect it to sea or whatever.

The military is a lot less militant than you'd think. At least in the Navy, we
train hard for everything but we also ensure that we use force correctly and
in proportion. We would never try to shoot at or harm a bunch of civilians,
they're the people we were trying to protect, Americans or not. Maybe not
every branch thinks like that, or things have changed in ~10 years I've been
out, but I'd like to think any professional Navy would act the same.

------
fbonetti
Well that's embarrassing. Could you imagine being the crew of the cruise ship
and having to rescue the clowns that just tried to ram you?

~~~
firekvz
They ran away, they didn't rescue them.

Kinda shows that they might be on blame

Ps: Venezuelan here and I hate my gov but this looks really shaddy

~~~
dhosek
The account I read indicated that the cruise ship offered assistance, got no
response and remained on the scene until the MRCC arrived.

------
fouc
> Of course, this would not be the first time a country has seized, or
> attempted to seize, a commercial ship to exert its own pressure on its
> international opponents.

Seems like many HN readers are failing to make it to this line, and are
assuming "crazy captain" as the motivation.

~~~
pmachinery
> this would not be the first time

Which the laughably biased article illustrates with Iran's "infamous" seizure
of a British ship. Not the earlier British seizure of an Iranian vessel, which
the Iranians were simply responding to, which is barely a footnote.

I'm sure if a ship from an ally of a country brazenly attempting to overthrow
the US government innocently "drifted" for days off the US coast before
innocently "finding its way into" US territorial waters, the US response would
be kid gloves and a cheery smile.

Meanwhile, in totally unrelated news, a few days after this event exposed
Venezuelan capability in response to violation of its territorial waters:

> US to Deploy Navy Ships near Venezuela

> The deployment is one of the largest U.S. military operations in the region
> since the 1989 invasion of Panama ... It involves assets like Navy warships,
> AWACS surveillance aircraft and on-ground special forces seldom seen before
> in the region."

[https://www.military.com/daily-news/2020/04/02/trump-us-
depl...](https://www.military.com/daily-news/2020/04/02/trump-us-deploy-anti-
drug-navy-ships-near-venezuela.html)

~~~
mhh__
The original British seizure was because it was in violation of international
sanctions, no?

The Iranian seizure, whether it matters or not, was illegal as far as I'm
aware.

~~~
pmachinery
There are no international sanctions against Syria, simply EU sanctions and US
sanctions. Countries that aren't the US and in the EU don't have to abide by
that any more than the US or EU has to abide by dictats Iran or Russia or
China dream up. The British action, made at the behest of the US, was at least
as illegal as the response it provoked.

~~~
perl4ever
The EU and the US comprise several nations, so why does that not make
sanctions "international"? Conversely, are international sanctions ever
applied by literally every nation on earth?

~~~
pmachinery
> The EU and the US comprise several nations, so why does that not make
> sanctions "international"?

For the same reason sanctions agreed on by Russia, China and North Korea (also
a group comprising several nations) would not mean "international sanctions".

Not that anyone would refer to that as such anyway, of course, because we
easily recognize misleading propaganda when its used by the bad guys.

> Conversely, are international sanctions ever applied by literally every
> nation on earth?

Nobody said literally every nation on Earth, but it should refer to more than
just two political unions which are virtually joined at the hip economically,
(geo)politically and even racially, and constitute a mere ~10% of the world.

UN sanctions, for example, could justifiably be called international
sanctions, though there still seems no point when it's more accurate and
simpler to just say "UN sanctions".

~~~
perl4ever
"For the same reason sanctions agreed on by Russia, China and North Korea
(also a group comprising several nations) would not mean "international
sanctions"."

You are saying that three nations are too few to be "international", and
therefore nearly 30 must be too few also?

My general rule of thumb is that an order of magnitude often makes a
meaningful difference.

~~~
pmachinery
EU law applies to nearly 30 countries. Does that make it "international law"?

------
tuukkah
More info on the cruise liner:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/RCGS_Resolute](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/RCGS_Resolute)

Seems buying one made in Finland can be a lucky charm as ice breaking is
obligatory here.

------
boomboomsubban
Why was the cruise ship in those waters? The ship was in the news last
November about how they had no money and canceled a planned cruise, and I
can't figure out what it's been doing since then.

~~~
mixmastamyk
Article says they were drifting during engine maintenance. Likely why they
couldn't respond quickly.

~~~
boomboomsubban
That doesn't explain why they were there.

~~~
mixmastamyk
The article gives an explanation. Maybe you don't believe it, but it is
plausible.

~~~
boomboomsubban
All it says is that it was traveling to Curacao. The ship was arrested for
nonpayment of debts in November, it's not clear who paid off the debts or why
it is traveling to Curacao.

------
hazeii
More details here (from ship's owners, I presume):-

[https://www.columbia-cs.com/statement-on-rcgs-resolute-
incid...](https://www.columbia-cs.com/statement-on-rcgs-resolute-incident/)

------
knbknb
Required reading for the Venezolan captain : "How to Avoid Huge Ships"
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Avoid_Huge_Ships](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Avoid_Huge_Ships)

------
Ballas
I misread the url as "thedive.com" \- seemed like a better fit.

------
dzaragozar
This new seem to be an April fools joke. There's no mention of the incident in
Venezuelan press,nor Reuters nor AP.

~~~
LatteLazy
I don't k ow about the Venezuelan press, but the Times of London, Popular
Mechanics and Deutsche Welle are all reporting it. Plus its April 3rd now...

~~~
dzaragozar
Indeed I see it now. The statement was published on April first and no mention
in the news was weird.

------
adonovan
An act of piracy off the island of Tortuga? Cue Michael Bolton!

~~~
vonmoltke
Tortuga is off the north coast of Haiti.

~~~
adonovan
Thanks. I was making a cryptic reference to this important document of
maritime law:
[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GI6CfKcMhjY](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GI6CfKcMhjY)

------
z2210558
I only ever seem to see stories that look a whole lot like propaganda from
thedrive.com. Who's behind this site?

~~~
ObsoleteNerd
It's a major automotive blog with TV shows and a large online presence. They
also just post stuff that's entertaining to people who like
cars/bikes/vehicles in general.

------
smoyer
Does anyone else feel like we've been living in a comic strip lately?

~~~
nradov
I've felt like I'm stuck in some alternate history timeline since 2001.

~~~
parsimo2010
Since 2001? The CIA was actually trying to spy on the Russians via psychic
powers in the late 1970's:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stargate_Project](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stargate_Project)
(edit- I suppose it was the US Army and the CIA)

There was a group of people that committed suicide to try and get their souls
on a magical spaceship in the early 1970's:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven%27s_Gate_(religious_gro...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven%27s_Gate_\(religious_group\))

Weird stuff has been going on forever, it's just that our capacity to report
meaningless stuff has grown over time. A few decades ago you would have never
heard about two ships colliding with zero casualties unless you worked in the
shipping industry or maybe the Venezuelan government.

~~~
nradov
That reminds me of a funny story. Back in the 90's before they all killed
themselves, the Heaven's Gate UFO cult actually tried to recruit at my college
by passing out flyers titled "Last Chance to Advance Beyond Human". Of course
we all thought it was hilarious. Next week some guys threw a kegger and put up
flyers to advertise: "One _More_ Chance to Advance Beyond Human!"

------
WalterBright
[deleted]

~~~
geoffmunn
This was taken from another angle:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTAx8r_090o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTAx8r_090o)

------
malcolmwhite
Trump recently announced we are doubling the size of southern command and
dramatically increasing our activity off the coast of Venezuela, where this
occurred. Could the cruise ship have been doing something sneaky?

~~~
duxup
Would they need a cruise ship to do a thing?

~~~
malcolmwhite
Why did we ship military supplies aboard the Lusitania?

~~~
duxup
We?

Why?

------
ck2
World is going to become even more scary.

Imagine what is happening inside North Korea we will never hear about. The
population will be quietly cut in half.

Putin has been doing some (more) scary things in Russia while no-one outside
is paying attention.

I'm still not completely convinced we are going to be allowed to have
elections in November.

~~~
cov1dnineteen
> Imagine what is happening inside North Korea

North Korea has no cases of COVID-19.

That number isn't real you say? Well, if we're going to start questioning the
numbers we might find ourselves looking hard at China's highly improbable
figures. And that would jeopardize a whole basket of important narratives.

Can't have that.

> I'm still not completely convinced we are going to be allowed to have
> elections in November.

Patience for this has an expiration. I don't know when that is but I know it's
measured in weeks, not months. There are a bunch of power elite with assured
futures that are unaware of the distress and ruin they're causing. The
backlash is coming.

------
starpilot
This, is Jackass.

~~~
birdyrooster
I’m Kenny Rogers

------
sudoaza
Since the US is currently trying to invade Venezuela under the guise of the
fight against drugs trafficking I understand Venezuelans being more strict
with their borders and would not diacard it being a setup.

~~~
analognoise
If the US wanted to invade, apparently we could do it with a handful of cruise
ships. Why send carriers when Carnival will do?

~~~
boomboomsubban
The US could not want to invade, instead opting to arm and assist an
insurgency in Venezuela. A cruise liner that is supposed to be arrested in
Buenos Aires would make for an excellent way to smuggle in supplies and
mercenaries. Or they want a civil war that they can then assist with.

We have done similar things in the past, in Syria and a host of Latin American
countries. Even in Venezuela, the US aid Maduro forbid was very likely being
used for some kind of smuggling. There is a standard international practice
for providing aid that the US completely ignored, earning condemnation from
international agencies.

~~~
totalZero
Look at the Latin American countries where the US propped up dictatorships in
defense against the spread of Communism. Compare those places to nations like
Nicaragua and Cuba. Which are the places where people starve, and which are
the places where people thrive?

The problem with decrying US participation in domestic political affairs in
Latin America during the Cold War is that the US was successful in fending off
the spread of Communism, so we will never really know just how much poverty
and kleptocracy would have been established if the spread of Communism in
Latin America had been successful. Today, the only observable counterfactual
is a handful of paranoid, illiberal, dirt-poor nations where the government
rules with an iron fist, which is certainly the case in Venezuela.

~~~
boomboomsubban
>Today, the only observable counterfactual is a handful of paranoid,
illiberal, dirt-poor nations where the government rules with an iron fist,
which is certainly the case in Venezuela.

Right, the rest of Latin America is doing far better than the country under
decades of US economic attacks. That's why there's no immigrant problem of
overly poor people from countries like Uruguay, basking in that glorious US
assisted regime change.

~~~
totalZero
Venezuela has damaged its own economy, and poor countries in Latin America are
usually poor from under-development, not from external suppression of existing
industry.

Venezuela was a prosperous and stable country in the mid- to late- 20th
century. Declining oil revenues, authoritarian dictatorship, cronyism in
PDVSA, expropriation of private assets, unfettered corruption, and narco-
capitalism have brought the country to where it is today. Sanctions are a
response to the festering illness that has infected the Venezuelan government
-- they are not the cause.

Nicaragua is an extremely poor country run by paranoid anti-American
leadership that openly welcomes relationships with Russia and China, but
Russia is not exactly an economic powerhouse, and China only seeks natural
resources and the creation of a second canal via the destruction of Lake
Managua (environment be damned).

Cuba is so destitute that its government has had to forbid its citizens from
boarding boats.

(Have you ever been to Uruguay? Have you ever had a conversation with a
Uruguayan person?)

It is impossible to understand Latin America without considering the effect of
American imperialism. But it is also impossible to understand Latin America
without considering the effect of American investment. Additionally, it is
impossible to understand the mid-20th-century dictatorships that dominated the
region without considering them against the backdrop of a Soviet (and then
Russian) effort to challenge the interests of the US in its own hemisphere.

So, when you insinuate that the US is the cause of all poverty in Latin
America, it demonstrates a one-dimensional interpretation that could never
capture the complexity of the full picture.

There are immigrants from all over Latin America living in the United States,
from the richest country to the poorest. They want to come to the US because
of its economic opportunity, physical security, and greater freedom. I don't
understand your point about Uruguay.

