

A hacker's loneliness - maryrosecook

"The computer is more interesting than most people.  I love to spend time with my computer.  It is fun to write programs for it, play games on it, and to build new parts for it.  It is fascinating to try to figure out what part of the program it is in by the way the lights flicker or the radio buzzes.<p>"...The computer has moved out of the den and into the rest of your life.  It will consume all of your spare time, and even your vacation, if you let it.  It will empty your wallet and tie up your thoughts.  It will drive away your family.  Your friends will start to think of you as a bore.  And what for?"<p>Shaken by the break-up of his marriage, Tom Pittman decided to change his habits.  And he did.  He later described the transformation: "I take a day of rest now.  I won't turn on the computer on Sunday.<p>"The other six days, I work like a dog."<p>- Hackers, Steven Levy.
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menloparkbum
"Is this indifference to the world a consequence of too much intercourse with
machines that give the appearance of thinking? How were he to fare if one day
he has to quit computers and rejoin a civilized society?... The more he has to
do with computing, the more it seems to him like chess: a tight little world
defined by made-up rules, one that sucks in boys of a certain susceptible
temperament and then turns them half-crazy, as he is half-crazy, so that all
the time they deludedly think they are playing the game, the game is in fact
playing them."

-J.M. Coetzee, winner of the 2003 Nobel Prize in Literature and former IBM programmer, from "Youth, Scenes from Provincial Life II."

~~~
arjungmenon
It makes me regret when I recall how much of my life I've lost to programming.

I spend most of my mid-teens (15,16,17) writing pointless C programs
(interpreters, compilers, etc. for pathetic new languages that probably no one
except me will use).

While my classmates from high school went out dating girls, watching new
movies, etc.; I would be sitting in front of my computer palms on forehead
fixing hard to find C pointer bugs.

The only person I could have a decent conversation with was my CS teacher. In
the end it was only after coming to college I realized how much I had lost.

I barely had any communication skills, absolutely zero sexual experience
(haven't even walked holding hands with a female - even today) and the
reputation of being a geek. And you know what? I realized I wasn't a happy
person anymore.

I think this kind of a life is seriously screwed. Very soon (been trying) I'm
gonna totally quit "being geek" (programming for a hobby, etc.) and try to be
normal like everyone else.

~~~
notdarkyet
Quitting is a poor idea. Maybe the work is something you love or maybe you are
simply using it to occupy your time and create an excuse to avoid the anxiety
of social situations. Either way the key is going to be moderation.

My previous roommates in college found it odd that I would spend Monday
through Friday alone in my room working or reading, yet on the weekends come
out an be completely extroverted. They were almost offended that I didn't want
to sit around and watch tv with them during the week. That is somewhat of a
sidetrack, but this balancing method allowed my to keep somewhat of an
equilibrium with my life.

Take the approach starting tomorrow the same way you would if you were
learning a new programming language. It would be insanity and a complete
suicide mission to dive into the properties of compilers without even
understanding the basic "hello world". You need to take smalls steps and
develop your social skills in the same way you would your programming ones.

And by the way, normalcy is overrated.

~~~
arjungmenon
thanx for the advice

~~~
greyman
Don't be a fool arjungmenon, you have a good prospects for the future. While
your peers waste precious time, you are sharpening your skills and working on
something you enjoy. While you are young, it is a great time to learn new
things and advance.

You will become expert in programming, which you know is an exciting field,
and then it will be relatively easy to get good paying job, or can start your
own company if you feel like it, and later, when you establish yourself
professionally and will find your path, it will be easier to have meaningful
longterm relationship.

I also spent a lot of my young time in from of a computer or solving math
puzzles, and I don't regret it at all. On a more personal note, I had my first
gf when I was 24 and married at 32. And I don't feel like missing anything.

~~~
anc2020
His peers were not "wasting" their precious time, they were having fun and
doing something they enjoyed.

Moderation is good, and its good to remember not to take yourself too
seriously (you appear to have serious plans for arjungmenon, greyman, stop
taking yourself so seriously).

I doubt your days of hard programming were a waste. They are an experience at
least, a side of life you are aware of that your peers might not be.

Knee-jerks - bad. Moderation - good. Trying new things - exceptionally good.

------
bufferout
Moderation.

If you let any one thing consume all of your time then you're missing out on
all the beauty and diversity the world and life can offer.

Feed your brain new experiences and it will reward you.

~~~
truebosko
This is key.

Apart from hacking away at the computer (I also do it for 8 hours a day at
work), I cook daily dinners/breakfast as a hobby, I spend lots of time with my
girlfriend (easier when you live together) and I try to generally disconnect
from the computer for a few hours a day wether it be right after work or later
at night

Some nights I won't even go near the PC except to turn on a movie, and some
nights I will come home and work all night on the computer. It varies

As bufferout said, Moderation :)

------
fgimenez
This is sad, I feel this way while doing a CS degree at Berkeley and working
in front of a computer for UCSF in my spare time.

Instead of just complaining and racking up karma, I propose we meet up at a
bar in the city (San Francisco to you non-bay area residents). Who's with me
to get drunk and tell nerdy jokes on Saturday night?

I'm totally not kidding. If you need an excuse, call it networking. If you
don't, call it partying.

[Edit: I'm down for seedier mission bars, but anywhere is fine if there's
enough interest.]

~~~
iamelgringo
A group of us do this on a pretty regular basis at Hackers and Founders:
<http://entrepreneur.meetup.com/1737/> We're getting together Next Wednesday.

~~~
fgimenez
Wow, that definitely sounds like something I'll be doing. Unfortunately, I've
got 2 midterms on the Thursday afterwards, so I'll have to pass on this
Wednesday. Thanks for the heads-up though. Hope to meet you there.

~~~
iamelgringo
We're getting together almost every other week, so if you can't make this
week, we'll have another get together in another couple of weeks.

------
woid
There is also problem with relationships with some women. I think, most women
don't mind you are spending so much time with a computer (as long as you are
making good money doing it). But they are jealous they must share the love and
attention with something like a computer. That is something unbearable for
them. In this case, you as a hacker have to lie that you hate your daily work,
your boss is an asshole and you have to stay at work longer just to pay the
bills. Don't even think to be honest for second and telling truth that you
love your work, you escape there because you are resting by working, by being
creative and by seeing your code/product running. If you have family, maybe is
better to take well-paid but boring 8-5 job full of assholes, where you will
look forward for the end and rushing home to wife and kids. Computer you may
use just for reading news on Friday evening.

Are you more a mad scientist or a family guy? :-)

~~~
menloparkbum
This happens to many people who are very into their work, computers or not. I
have 2 good friends who are both very successful artists, and they are both
divorced because of their commitment to their work.

~~~
woid
My opinion is maybe biased by living in central Europe. But I see many people
who are not satisfied with their work and realize their passions somewhere
else (family, hobbies, you name it). I'm a little afraid here it is still
social norm even 20 years after communism era. As far as I can observe women
are more often these unsatisfied workers because they tend to have worse and
less paid jobs and what more: they are naturally "hardwired" to be passionate
about family in the first place. So they don't understand someone is going to
work not for money, but for fun and his passion.

------
maryrosecook
I wasn't sure if this is appropriate. However, it expresses the loneliness
that I, and, I expect, some other hackers, sometimes feel.

------
omarish
You guys realize that girls and loving your work are not mutually exclusive..

------
markbao
The problem I have is that not only I both love to spend time with it, but
that I know that I _should_ be spending time with it to get the product done
faster. Sometimes it may be fun, exciting, etc. but sometimes it's just an
obligation.

------
vaksel
I feel like the whole loneliness thing is mostly the person's fault. Instead
of being your own man, you are trying to live up to someone else's
expectations. Lets face it, as a startup founder you have a LOT more on your
plate than some ex-highschool football quarterback who works at the Gap.

------
hunter107
Mostly I see that Hackers tend to be generally unsatisfied with the state of
things around them, and will compulsively seek to improve or atleast _know_
the system. The lonely part arises from these traits I think which puts them
at a somewhat alienated position in society, because of their intolerance
towards incompetence or the irrationality of the world around them, which I
believe puts them at a risk of withdrawal from society towards the rational
and logical world of computers. As for moderation, I don't think hackers are
quite known for it. Hackers are by definition among the extremes of the
computing society, so moderation would be viewed more as a stepping down. No
wonder most hackers tend to be INTPs.

------
pavelludiq
I would say that its not computers that make us this way, its mostly because
we are this way, that we love these machines. we are thinkers, makers,
dreamers and loners. Yes, i have friends in the real world, yes, i have social
skills, but its my obsessions, that give me a reason, its my quest for
knowledge and wisdom that drives me, people are mostly a biological need, not
exactly like food, or water. God dammit, its my last year of high school, i
gotta find me a girlfriend, but thats probably bad for my "coding happy
hours".

------
herdrick
I've been doing the "no computer for one day a week) plan for one week now.
It's been great so far. (And I was inspired by that very paragraph of that
excellent book).

------
yters
Would it be different if hackers had the prestige of, say, a celebrity?

From what I understand, most super successful people work horribly long hours,
but I suspect the feeling of fulfillment is also based on the social prestige
of what they do. Computing is so ubiquitous (and also the cause of lots of
frustration for some people) that those who drive the field don't get the
recognition they deserve. Maybe the whole startup culture will change this,
since the risk and self determination gives it more of a romantic flair.

At any rate, quitting, or even moderation, may not truly solve things if a
person has a very deep love for their work. I think this adds a morally noble
element to being a hacker startup-founder: it helps the whole field realize
their true sense of self worth.

~~~
Hutzpah
also the prestige thing is a multi-dimensional thing. high-brow vs low-brow
and things like that play into this.

~~~
yters
It's weird, high brow people have a stereotype of high brows and visa versa. I
didn't think the terms were so literal.

------
endlessvoid94
That was a great book. Also check out "Crypto" by Steven Levy.

~~~
silentbicycle
_The Code Book_ by Simon Singh
(<http://www.simonsingh.net/The_Code_Book.html>) is quite a bit better, IMHO.

------
msluyter
I sorta have the opposite problem. I'm quite introverted and enjoy programming
for its own sake, but I have a difficult time making myself work on projects
outside of work because it just feels too lonely.

------
kajecounterhack
It hasn't driven away my family, but it does drive away friends. Lol.

~~~
PieSquared
It did that to me for a while, too; I would always want to explain to them my
latest idea or tell them about some awesome new language or something. They
would yawn.

They're still awesome people, but sometimes I wish there were people around me
who I could associate with and discuss computer hobbies with. (Sadly, being in
school doesn't give you many opportunities to meet new people very often, it
seems to me...)

~~~
kolya3
School is THE place to meet new people. In fact, enjoy the variety of people
you meet at school now. It's harder to meet interesting people later on, after
you are out of school. Most people are content with discussing what they saw
on TV last night and what their lunch companion has on their plate. "Is that
pesto?" Enjoy your school years :)

~~~
bbb
Statements like the above always frustrate me.

I'm in school (and have been for a long time). Many people that I respect told
me: grad school was the best part in their lives, that I should enjoy my time,
and that it only goes downhill afterwards (no more research, family
obligations, boring jobs, administration work, etc.).

Great. But what if I don't like my situation right now? What if I don't like
grad school that much? What if I don't like most of the people around me? If
the sentiment that grad school is the best part of life is correct, then what
else is there to look forward to? What's the point?

(sorry for being all gloomy, but the parent's post really struck a nerve)

~~~
gizmo
For many cheerleaders high school is the high point in their lives.
Popularity, likeminded people everywhere and absolutely zero responsibilities.

So unless you're very similar to the person who tells you that grad school was
the best part of his life, take it with a grain of salt. Maybe you _like_
being responsible, maybe you _like_ to work.

The thing is, many people give up on their dreams just after grad school.
Compromise suddenly trumps all.

(And maybe you're just chronically unhappy person. Unhappy no matter what
happens. Unhappy for no describable reason. Food for thought, huh?)

~~~
maximilian
<Anecdotal evidence> Don't they have research where they track 2 sets of
people before and after a traumatic event. One set goes through an extremely
negative event (like paralyzed, etc) and one set wins the lottery or something
similar. They find that the people, once they returned to steady state after
the event, were about as happy as before, independent of their event (positive
or negative). I kinda think that people make their situation into the way they
are, and its independent of the situation. </anecdotal evidence>

~~~
kalid
Check out the work by Daniel Kahneman -- I believe he performed or referenced
the study you mention.
[http://www.abc.net.au/rn/allinthemind/stories/2003/923773.ht...](http://www.abc.net.au/rn/allinthemind/stories/2003/923773.htm)

------
timmy2shoe9384
Couldn't have put it better myself Steven Levy! The part about the consuming,
Im here commenting to a comment that would never ammount to anything in the
common society we know as human. Why do I waiste time? Apparently it consumes
the part of life...::BLANK::.... O~~~~----______ ====~ (Fill) ('n) (Bla'k)

------
computerguy16
Get this guy a 'Real Doll'

------
mroman
With time, I have felt that loneliness, yet, after a couple of hours of being
around people, I can't help but think about the work I could be doing, the
wonders I could be exploring.

~~~
ynd
I feel the same. But I started to change my ways so I don't become too
isolated.

~~~
mroman
I hear you. I have done the same for a couple of months at a time, and the
interesting thing was that it happened spontaneously - it wasn't a conscious
decision.

I do think that isolation partly exists within a person's mind, as I have felt
isolated when surrounded by a roomful of people.

It's a part of our condition, a challenge that we must deal with successfully
in order to hack on . . .

