
I Almost Got a Job on 37Signals Job Board - datawalke
http://datawalke.com/freelance/i-almost-got-a-job-on-37signals-job-board/
======
mahmud
The job ad was riddled with typos, bad grammar and bad style. Why did you even
respond to it? The domain name on the email account was different from the
name of the company. The person running this "Shivum Gautama" has zero history
in google. etc.

Overall, Mr. Gautama might have been a creep but atleast he was decent enough
to show his true colors so early in the game.

~~~
byw
Not to mention he posted under different names but the same skype id:

<http://jobs.37signals.com/jobs/7003>

<http://jobs.37signals.com/jobs/6958>

------
petercooper
This reminded me of something the other way around.

Back in 1998, I was on summer break before going to college. My parents said I
had to get a summer job, so I got an entry level PR job at a Web design agency
(new media, baby!) in London. Somehow, within a few weeks I was attending
recruitment interviews. One totally normal looking guy came in, sat down, and
after a quick introduction the CEO asked him what his background was. The guy
jumped up, shouted "you can go f!@k yourselves!!" and ran out slamming the
door. Never saw him again.

I was only at the agency a month in the end, but just the crazy things _I_ saw
there could fill a book. In hindsight, I regret quitting.

~~~
prawn
At my first web job, the week I started there was an empty desk alongside
mine. The other employees spoke of its absent occupant as though he was a bit
of a curiosity (like they could talk - you could write a sitcom about that
place).

He eventually returned from leave and I found out why he was the strange one
even in comparison to them: he was over 60 years old, still lived with his
mother, had some penchant for buying any food that was on sale (even if he
never ate it, and even to the point where he was buying more freezers to store
it!) and his recent leave was granted after he set himself on fire in bed. He
also had an uncontrollable giggle.

Those were the days!

~~~
petercooper
They were the days! The oddest thing is I've Googled about 10 names from the
late 90s Web design days and haven't found a single person. I can't imagine
what they're all up to now but it doesn't seem to be the modern Web
development industry, that's for sure. Were the late 90's "new media" bunch
really a wackier, more diverse lot than we are now?

~~~
nailer
Not a personal contact, but Jeffrey Zeldman, who I used to read about when I
was finishing high school, is still around 15 years later.

~~~
spooneybarger
I worked with Jeffrey in the late 90s, 'new media' days. Nice guy. Not sure if
he was wacky as I'm apparently wacky myself.

------
lox
We've seen this guy a number of times under different guises over at
99designs.com.

Our anti-fraud systems mostly pick him up now, he's not particularly bright.

Does anyone have a contact at 37Signals that I could provide with details?

~~~
jasonfried
We emailed this guy and are waiting back to hear his side of the story. I
can't imagine how he'll defend himself, but we'll give him 24 more hours
before we pull his jobs off the site.

~~~
quizbiz
This type of exchange can only happen on HN. :)

------
moron4hire
I wonder how likely that guy would have been to respond that way in a face-to-
face meeting? I mean, I suspect he would have been somewhat likely, but on
some order of magnitude less so than for internet communication.

Why do people treat internet based communication differently than other, older
forms? I've never had a misunderstanding in person, over the phone, or over
snail mail devolve into such a vile display of human worthlessness.

Does the mode change people or does the mode bring us into contact with more
people who would be likely to respond in this manner? I know I have gotten
into more arguments online than in person, but I also know that most of the
people I know in person are fairly reasonable people. The relative anonymity
of the internet tends to hide details that would lead me to avoid certain
types of people long before such an argument appeared.

Maybe in 20 years, when everyone can no longer remember a time before the
internet, we will have figured out "etiquette" properly. Ha, that reminds me,
I haven't seen a "'netiquette" posting in so long; they used to be so popular
10 years ago. Do we just assume (wrongly) that every gets it?

~~~
datawalke
I think it really comes from the ease of the exit and the disconnect from
anything human. Even when you come down to it on a snail-mail level there is
still a human element to that communication. Whether it be the signature at
the end, or hosting a physical object in your hand, I think something makes it
more real.

When you are online everything fits into the same type of frame: Words in a
font on a screen. It looks just the same just about everywhere. I think it may
be that these people believe they are yelling more at a screen and some text
than a real human being on the other side.

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troels
> your name is JIM WALKER, and you type _NOD_ every 3 seconds

What does that even mean?

~~~
nailer
It means he doesn't understand 'actions' in online speech.

I do _nod_ a lot myself as an indication I'm paying attention, and every so
often it surprises me when someone doesn't quite understand.

~~~
troels
So you would type out the word "nod" once in a while, just like you would nod
your head during a physical conversation? That's curious. I've never seen that
before - I don't use chat/IM a whole lot though.

~~~
telemachos
I think it's an IRC-ism since there you can type

    
    
        /me nods
    

And the "/me" token will be replaced by your username and the whole "action"
will be a different style (font/color/what-have-you) on some clients.

~~~
moeffju
The same command works on Skype and does what one would expect. It's just not
really advertised. Try typing /help in a Skype chat window.

------
bosch
While I agree you dodged a bullet, I wouldn't use PayPayl either after the
numerous stories I've heard about how they keep people's money for various
undocumented reasons. That combined with the fact it's near impossible to
actually get someone on the phone who can directly help you can give you
significant risks by using them.

Look into wire transfers as they're a lot safer and the money goes directly
into your account. Sure it might cost a bit of money but if you split the cost
with your employer you don't have to go through a middle man then.

~~~
datawalke
About four months ago I had a client who received their licensing information
put in a claim on me. Even though I sent full documentation showing that they
received their license they still refunded this individual. That did get me
quite upset with PayPal. Since then I really haven't done that many
transactions with them or any online freelancing. I'll have to keep the wire
transfer in mind for the future. Thank you bosch!

~~~
Osiris
I have this happen to me. My licensing system accepts the PayPal Reversal IPN
and cancels the license key. The next time the software checks for an update
it sees the license is invalid and disables the license. I'm not sure if it's
the best way to handle the situation, but it's effective.

------
aaronbrethorst
Obviously the posting is still up. Have you emailed the transcript along to
the folks at 37Signals? They should really pull this (or better yet append the
transcript to the job posting).

~~~
caryme
It looks like he has two other posts up as well:

<http://jobs.37signals.com/jobs/6958>

<http://jobs.37signals.com/jobs/7003>

All sketchy and heavy on the caps lock.

~~~
aymeric
A quick search on google shows that he is posting the same ads on other job
boards:

<http://www.google.com/search?q=phenomsolutions1>

(Not that it is super relevant)

~~~
aaronbrethorst
I think it's totally relevant: I'm making a living by doing contract work
right now. I now would never even consider accepting a job from
phenomsolutions1. I'm really glad to know I shouldn't even entertain the
notion of working with this guy.

------
bryanh
I had to read that twice. Jeez. You dodged a bullet there. Just imagine if you
actually TOOK that job.

~~~
datawalke
Absolutely. Once he IM'ed me I was looking for a way to get out of there
without seeming rude. I cringed when he agreed to the price I gave. I thought
it was going to end the conversation there. I am still working on growing a
pair and walking out of things as soon as I want out instead of trying to find
a way to make things work. It is still a transition for my mind to get into
"It's okay to say 'No.'"

~~~
paulitex
Saying no can be really, really tough - but rewarding. In my experience most
programmers are conflict-adverse and like taking on projects, this might be
obvious but it means we often find ourselves over stretched. Speaking of
37signals, David had a good post on that awhile ago
(<http://37signals.com/svn/posts/1626>). It's a real problem that I, and I'm
sure many others here, struggle with.

edit: (unrelated) Have you brought this to the attention of 37signals? You
should send them this story, I feel like they may want to keep unsavoury
characters like this away from their board in the future.

~~~
datawalke
I have contacted 37Signals and they informed me they will look into the issue.
Thank you for the link to David's post as well. I am giving it a read over
now.

------
cglee
This is why I always prefer to look them in the eye and ask for a face to face
meeting. If that's not possible, then I'll do a Skype video conference. That's
not going to weed out all the crazies, but at least it'll give you a better
feeling to complement your initial guy instinct.

------
eelco
_How the brief was written scared me a little, but 37Signals charges a pretty
decent amount to post a listing so I figured it was all going to be kosher._

So, the question here is: why didn't you trust your gut feeling? Why did you
value your (simplistic) rationalization more?

~~~
jemfinch
> So, the question here is: why didn't you trust your gut feeling? Why did you
> value your (simplistic) rationalization more?

Why trust instinct when you can trust fact?

~~~
runjake
Because the facts were incomplete in this given situation and instinct is an
important facet of survival (be it your life or your sanity).

------
micmcg
Looking at the original ad, did you really think that was going to end well?

~~~
heffay
Seemed odd to me too. That would have been one I skipped right over

------
Tichy
I've been insulted in a chat by a HN member, too (chatting about contract
work). Disconnect... I actually found it interesting to meet that kind of
person (even if just virtual). To think that some put up with that kind of
abuse every day in their office jobs...

I wouldn't like to use PayPal either, though.

------
gexla
Actually, running through Odesk or Elance as he suggested can be pretty safe
if done right, but the fees kind of suck. You could have also transferred your
funds into Paypal. I didn't get from the conversation that he would have been
a guy to screw you over with non-payment, but you could have been screwed over
by changing scopes and unrealistic expectations. If you are okay with doing
hourly, then that's probably the best way of dealing with these sorts of
clients, and Odesk pays weekly for hourly work.

------
wangwei
Add Akshay Rustagi (posted from Craiglist) to the list of scammers. Their
usual trick is skype chat or talk. The best way to identify scammers is to
talk face to face.

~~~
billswift
More people have been scammed face-to-face than over the internet. I am
currently reading Robert Greene's _The 48 Laws of Power_ , and he discusses
many actual cons that have taken place over the years. My favorite is where a
guy got $5000 out of Al Capone.

------
duck
I don't do a whole lot of freelance work, but when I do I _always_ talk to the
person over the phone (or face to face if local) before starting. You can
pretty much read a person after a minute of conversation and know, but with IM
or email you just can't (unless the guy goes crazy on you like this one).

------
exit
how does this scam work though? at what point does he actually get money out
of people he approached to employ?

don't tell me he's scamming people out of web-design labor.

~~~
lox
Basically he would have used a stolen credit card to pay for the contest he
was suggesting on 99designs.com. Then he would have awarded the prize to the
designer, but asked the designer to send him back some of the money "for tax
reasons" or some other nonsense via PayPal. If the designer can get the cash
out before the chargeback comes in or the design contest site notices, then he
profits.

Aside from that, he might just have been getting free design work that he
could sell elsewhere.

------
dasil003
Anyone having DNS troubles with this domain?

~~~
datawalke
Thanks for pointing this out, I really appreciate it. I reviewed some of the
zones today and something was out of wack on the nameserver.

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henning
<http://is.gd/d7eBI> it looks like this guy posts job ads under different
names. all of them have red flags so it shouldn't be hard to avoid scumbags
like this.

~~~
johns
This is just out of curiosity, why shorten that URL?

~~~
mortenjorck
I'm not saying this as a joke at the previous poster's expense, but I think it
really is likely a result of too much time spent on Twitter (and perhaps an
addiction to the is.gd clickthrough analytics?).

------
mkramlich
when I first started doing contract work I used to look for reasons to say
yes.

now I look for reasons to say no.

