
Things I Learned the Hard Way: Ignore the Content - brm
http://powazek.com/posts/1646
======
gruseom
Summary: _The next time someone complains to you, try to ignore the content of
the complaint and address the emotion behind it instead._

It's excellent advice, of a kind rarely heard in the hacker world.

~~~
xenophanes
How is that excellent advice?

Most problems should be solved. And when they shouldn't, you can work on the
problem of why this guy is complaining pointlessly.

~~~
gruseom
You made me realize there is a problem with this guy's wording when he says
"try to _ignore_ the content of the complaint". That's an overstatement. I
would put it this way: try to address not _only_ the explicit content of the
complaint, but also the emotion behind it.

Why is that good advice? Because people often don't say, and perhaps sometimes
don't even know, what their concern really is. They simply feel it. And until
they _feel_ that a problem is resolved, it isn't resolved. So it simply isn't
possible to resolve things without addressing the emotions. Sometimes people
try that, of course. And that's when you find yourself in the same argument
all over again, saying: "But we already resolved this!"

------
jonas_b
I've found that for people with an analytical mindset like me, there are a few
different stages of how to approach people who respond to feelings rather than
reasoning.

1\. Ignorance: I was in this stage for a long time, which meant that I
considered other people to be stupid when they reacted in a way that seemed
illogical or unreasonable to the situation.

2\. Changing the other person: I'm still in this stage quite frequently,
especially with my girlfriend; I realise that she responds to thing
differently than I do, but I perceive my intrepretation of issues as the
correct one and attempt to change her view by arguing with her. Usually to no
avail.

3\. Humility and compassion: Once in a while, I realise that everyone
(including me) has got some emotional baggage, childhood experiences etc. that
almost nobody can hold a "correct" or "logical" view of things, and the only
way I can respond effectively to them is to actually listen to what they have
to say and try to express the emotions that I feel when interacting with the
other person.

The third one is hard, because I have grown up perceiving emotional people as
weak, considering reasoning and an analysis to be superior to "feelinsg", but
I've come to learn that if you really want to get to know other people, you
have be open and flexible with your own emotions.

~~~
lsc
there is another option:

4\. put yourself in a position where you deal with other people who value
logic and reason.

I mean, you need some of 3, as well... Personally, I have succeeded at 4. to
the point where I am one of the more emotional and irrational people in my
life.

I think my life got a lot better when I stopped listening to people who said I
was too analytical. Sure, we are none of us completely rational, but I think
there is a difference between striving for rationality and consciously
avoiding it.

~~~
ahoyhere
Rationality is largely a myth.

Have you read anything like Predictably Irrational, or the less famous
Stumbling On Happiness, or maybe The New Brain? Or Mistakes Were Made (But Not
By Me)?

They all make psychology and behavioral economics research very digestible,
and all underscore the point: we're not rational. Even if we think we are. Our
brains are essentially wired to be tangled up and self-deluding.

Moreover, lots of people use "logic and reason" as shield to hide behind when
they say and do unfeeling, cutting things to other human beings who happen to
react with emotions.

~~~
lsc
re-read my comment. I recognize that we are not completely rational.
Rationality and logic, though, are still very powerful tools, even when
wielded by emotional beings such as ourselves. Some of us are more comfortable
with logic and rational models than we are with emotions.

What I am speaking of has much to do with cultural values. Just like a
Scientist is not going to feel valued by a community that believes science can
teach us nothing, I didn't feel valued when I was around people who valued
emotions over logic.

~~~
ahoyhere
But you didn't _feel_ valued.

That's a powerful feeling.

That leads to lots of people saying negative things.

Like saying people who are more emotional than you do not have value, because
they made your way of being feel unimportant.

Do you see what I mean?

~~~
lsc
I'm not really sure where you think you are in conflict with what I said.

Emotional people can have high value, and you are missing out if you avoid
them completely. I earn about 300% more when I let a recruiter get me a gig
than when I contract myself out.

All I'm saying is that when I feel like 'everyone' doesn't value rational
thought and logic as much as they value some emotional quality I don't
understand, yes, I don't feel valued. I have seen programmers in environments
like that quit and dedicate their lives to creating mediocre music. (Not that
musicians aren't valuable... but I have seen some really awesome world-class
programmers go on to be mediocre musicians, which just seems like a waste.)

"I don't know everything" and "I might be wrong" are core to creating a useful
rational model from incomplete data. I think that surrounding myself with
people who are more rational and/or more intelligent than I am helps to
develop that humility. Spending my days amongst managers does the opposite.

------
gruseom
This is an interesting thread. Since people are talking a lot about Myers-
Briggs, I'll throw in something I figured out a while ago.

When I take MB tests I come out evenly split on T vs F. (I'm also evenly split
on I vs E, but am extreme N and extreme P... but we're talking about T and F,
so never mind that.) What I figured out is that being evenly split, I tend to
morph in response to the people I'm around. If I'm in an environment with lots
of T people (like at work), I tend to behave like an F. If I'm around F people
(like at home), I tend to behave like a T. So I get told both "don't be so
emotional" and "you're a heartless automaton" on a regular basis :)

------
lsc
I suppose it depends upon your audience. Personally, I become somewhat
irritated when people try to guess what I am feeling rather than believing
what I am saying. I've also had good luck trusting people to tell me what they
want, rather than trying to construct a model of what they are feeling. But
then, most of my friends, and all of my customers are technically oriented
people.

~~~
gruseom
"Addressing the emotion behind the complaint" doesn't mean _guessing_ what the
other person is feeling, so much as showing respect and inviting them to
express it. But I agree that the example in the OP was kind of contrived and
more along the lines that you're critiquing.

------
zacharydanger
This is actually very helpful advice. I, an INTJ, often wind up worsening
squabbles with my ISFP girlfriend because she " _feels_ " things while I'm a "
_heartless automaton_ ".

~~~
lbrandy
"Dont worry honey. The reason we fight like this is your are an ISFP which
means you are very emotional, and I am an INTJ, which means I've very
analytical."

Heh, I'm sure that goes over great. Meta-analysis in the middle of a "feelings
vs analysis" argument.

~~~
LogicHoleFlaw
I find that the best thing I can do in an argument like that is to shut my big
mouth. I'm strongly INTJ and well, I've said some things that I regretted
after the fact. Emotions are real too.

~~~
icey
I'm about as INTJ as they come, and the phrase that has saved my relationship
is "Please let me have 2 minutes to think about this". My wife knows me well
enough by now to know that I'm not trying to get out of anything, that I
really need a moment to ponder the situation.

------
11ren
It's common for geeks to phrase technical points with disrespect. A high-
profile example is Linus's rant against C++ <http://lwn.net/Articles/249460/>
Common enough to warrant pg's _How to Disagree._

I wonder, is the emotional part _really_ about something else, as this article
suggests? It often seems out of place to me.

