

PandaBot: A friendly, affordable 3D printer - nerdburn
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/pandarobotics/pandabot-a-friendly-affordable-3d-printer
My good friend Kelly is finally rolling out his inexpensive ($800) 3D printer for everyone. Please support the Kickstarter.
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pxlpshr
The video mentions they've only been working in the 3D printer world for less
than a year. So now they know how to fix "all the problems" to make 3D
printing available to the masses? The leadership page doesn't give me a lot of
confidence in that blanket statement.

Regular 2D printing isn't something that's been easy for most people after 20
years of modern computing. It's a toss up whether or not software, hardware,
or user error.. For that reason, I think 3D printing will be a hobbyist thing
for another 5 years at least. The delta between a PandaBot and a high-quality
MakerBot 2 with a good reputation is only about $1,000. Thats not much for a
die-hard hobbyist, or rich geek wanting a new tech toy to fiddle with.

The MakerBot 2 is on its second iteration, designed and built by a thought
leader, and looks really fucking impressive compared with the 2-tower and
unprotected print head design of the PandaBot.

When people want to bring devices to the masses, they need to consider what
that means. How many kids may stick a pencil or finger into the moving parts
when Dad isn't paying attention? Or what about my maid who's spraying dust
repellant around my desk? How are you going to fight warranty issues on things
nearly impossible to prove, and for which you're not protecting against via
thoughtful product design?

In effect, you've reduced costs to make the PandaBot accessible to a class of
people who aren't really your customer, and that cost-cutting meant the
removal of key parts that truly make a device ready for the masses. Like
protecting the 'auto calibrating' head.

I think it's great you're working on that goal but expectations seems a little
disconnected from reality (from my perspective).

~~~
anigbrowl
_In effect, you've reduced costs to make the PandaBot accessible to a class of
people who aren't really your customer_

And you know this how? I've been surprised at the consistent hostility of some
people on HN to innovating on price. This is the same mentality that led to
the US car market going temporarily insane and assuming that everyone wants
the biggest SUV possible.

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tptacek
That wasn't fair. Pricing so close to COGS that you can't sustainably deliver
the product isn't price innovation, nor is pricing so low that COGS forces you
to deliver an inferior product; the comment you're responding to took pains to
spell out why this particular 3d printer price didn't make much sense.

The consistent hostility towards low prices on HN is based on this site's
manifest tendency to underprice things, or to calculate price from cost or
from pie-eyed notions of how big their addressable markets are.

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anigbrowl
But Tom, what basis do you have for suggesting they can't sustainably deliver
the product? I don't know whether this is the case, I'm waiting to find out.
But I'm perplexed by the assumption that they can't, and thought the
grandparent comment assumed its conclusions. I don't agree on the inferior
product angle; that assumes someone else should define what the minimal
acceptable functionality is.

I don't necessarily think the PandaBot is directly competitive with the
Makerbot- I'm sure corners have been cut to achieve that low price. But I
don't necessarily need everything that the Makerbot does. It seems to me that
as a technology is refined, you have the choice of adding more features, or
keeping more limited features and lowering the price - that's what I'm
referring to as price innovation.

Consider that the Thing-o-matic was $1200 or so, and people were happy with
that at the time of release (3q 2010, IIRC). So the new Markerbot is a lot
better, but it's also nearly twice the price. The PandaBot is offering
something similar but simpler for $800-ish, which doesn't seem wildly
unrealistic to me given the 2-year interval. I can see from the Kickstarter
page that it's more of a no-frills product - one which requires more user
supervision and safety-awareness, for example - but the tradeoff is that it
costs less. I'm not sure whether I'd buy one (since it would be more of a
hobby than a tool purchase), but being under $1000 is a big factor in any
purchase decision.

~~~
tptacek
Yeah, I don't know. You make a good point too. Maybe the parent comment was
worded too stridently, but I thought it asked a valid question, and I think HN
needs that question to be asked more, not less.

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braum
The Ultra-Bot 3D Printer Kickstarter ends in less than 22 hours and has a full
assembled unit at $899 ($99 more).

It's based on the original Makerbot Cupcake but upgraded and improved from
trial and error. And there is a version with a larger build area (8x8x8"),
which is the one I've pledged to receive. And with the heated build platform
you can run ABS or PLA.

The thing that bothers me about the PandaBot is the lack of details on the
build area size (update: 11x11x11" Print Envelope" and heated platform). Also
the price isn't that great compared to other fully assembled 3D printers with
the same tech. Also I'm not a fan of the base moving instead of just the print
head. I can't think of any wide format printers that move the base instead of
the entire head assembly/gimble.

I do love the snap together setup process and the look of the machine. It
looks like something you would buy in a store and almost anyone could setup
and start using immediately.

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ghein
Thanks for your comments.

We've found that moving the bed horizontally helps reduce the size of motors
necessary to move the head as well as simplifies the required inertial
calculations to properly model the fluid flow to give a detailed, low defect
object.

We're definitely aiming for a store bought look. We've violated the sacred law
of demos time and again and not yet been caught. To do Canada's CNBC we
dragged it out of a cab and had it set up and printing in 5 minutes with no
adjustment, with an alpha prototype! On live, national TV! So it's a decently
robust design.

~~~
braum
awesome job on the look and ease of use and good luck on the project.

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taskstrike
I love 3D printers, but this is the third one I've seen this week in addition
to MakerBot and Form 1. I'm really not understanding what the differentiator
is after seeing the video except a slight change in price.

~~~
cdawzrd
This is a FDM printer that is a lot cheaper than the MakerBot ($800 vs $2100).
The Form 1 is a SLA printer, which means it is better at making small, precise
parts; but worse at making parts that are durable enough for actual testing in
assemblies (as opposed to just looking pretty).

It is interesting to see competition to the MakerBot, since $2k is still a bit
high, and if the PandaBot's "calibration-free" design works as well as they
claim, the ease-of-use factor is still a big thing to exploit.

If it has even moderately good print quality, a commercial, fully-assembled
FDM printer for under $1000 is an interesting prospect.

~~~
kellyjrose
Thanks.

The basic thought was to get it to a point that we could provide it to
designers and university students with little to no engineering experience and
they could start printing their 3d models right away. Hence, the heavy
emphasis on self-calibration and ease-of-use.

The price range just works because we also designed it from the start to be a
manufactured product, so we get an economy of scale very quickly as more
people pick it up.

You can see print quality examples on ponoko, Derek swung by our office to see
it close up in action yesterday:
[http://blog.ponoko.com/2012/10/04/pandabot-3d-printer-
launch...](http://blog.ponoko.com/2012/10/04/pandabot-3d-printer-launches-on-
kickstarter/)

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srlake
Even though it's 3x the price, I'd take the Form 1:
[http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/formlabs/form-1-an-
affor...](http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/formlabs/form-1-an-affordable-
professional-3d-printer)

3x the price and 10x the machine.

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stephengillie
I'm waiting for the 3d printer you download and assemble entirely from
3d-printed parts.

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mahyarm
I'm waiting when you can get plastic in a form that works with these things at
$2/pound.

~~~
jlgreco
There has been a lot of work lately at creating filament makers that would
allow people to recycle scrap plastic into filament you can print with at
home. I think that when this technology starts to mature things ought to get
rather interesting.

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aidenn0
Anyone else remember having to hand-calibrate 2d printers?

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melvinng
Toronto based company!

~~~
kellyjrose
Yep, just across from OCAD and AGO. :)

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TheAmazingIdiot

      1. What is your firmware based upon?
      2. What computer software do you use to assist PandaBot? Slic3r?
      3. Do you need a computer hooked up via USB to facilitate printing?
      4. Do you publish schematics and/or physical part dimensions for repair 
      and replacement?
      5. What makes your product better than a RepStrap?
      6. A MendelMax full kit costs $699 USD. The kit is complete with full build 
      instructions and fully repairable if/when something goes wrong. What makes 
      your printer better than this model?
      7. How do you handle inertial jerk when you have a partially printed model due 
      to the moving table?

~~~
ghein
1&2 We are using available firmware and software with the prototype while we
build our own versions ( fully respecting the licenses the community is using
for different projects). We're building software and firmware that are
properly paramaterized for our system and give great results - you need to get
the exact fluid mechanics right for your hardware. But it will be totally
hackable and you are more than welcome to roll your own g-code with your
favorite tool or even pick your firmware.

3 We load files via USB but you don't need to keep the computer plugged in
after a successful transfer

4 We're generally using off the shelf parts but it's a commercial shelf.
Trade-off of quality, tolerances, capabilities. We feel that the improvements
to the stability and reliability of our product are worth going in this
direction.

5 We're building a tool to let people focus on designing and producing
physical objects. Different design objective than kits. By not being a Rep* we
get access to interesting components with very tight tolerances which will
give users a wonderful experience in reliably producing objects.

6 We're shipping a manufactured product, it comes in 2 pieces to reduce
shipping costs. It's a tool that plugs in and goes. Auto-calibration and the
incredible rigidity really help make it "just work".

Again, it's a different focus from kits so different strengths and weaknesses.
If you want to build your printer from scratch, we're not the right choice. If
you want to be printing out of the box with no calibration, re-calibration, or
learning all of the details of Slic3r or other tools, then we are the right
choice. And then, if you want to explore Slic3r or optimal 3D material
strategies without having to become a hardware/robotics guru, we are the right
choice.

Lots of room for different people to focus on different things, or for people
to have different tools for different projects.

