

I want to go to college - mmackh
http://restfulpanda.com/6-i-want-to-go-to-college.html

======
Me1000
"I want to join a team or even better, go to college and meet like minded
folks"

That sounds like me 3 years ago. When I graduated High School I was looking
forward to going to college so that I could meet people who, like me, were
interested in building really good software and learning new things... for the
sake of learning.

My first year in college I met many people who helped me connect. I am a core
team member on the Cappuccino web framework, and that experience is what
helped me connect. I thought everyone wanted to learn for the sake of
learning, and wanted to build great things. It was enough to suffer through
classes which I had little to no interest in, but were required for my "well
rounded" education. As my year ended I failed calculus, but that didn't bother
me much because I opened doors. I had a few internship offers because of the
product I shipped and the work I did on Cappuccino. I turned them down so that
I could continue my studies over the summer to catch up (from failing calculus
the first time). A mistake I still regret.

I was fortunate that my first computer science professor was like me,
interested in learning for the sake of learning, and he built some astonishing
cool things. My second semester CS professor (at this time I only took one CS
class a semester while I was fulfilling my general education requirements) was
terrible. The class was called "Software Engineering" where he would lecture
on perl, HTML, and CVS, on occasion he mentioned SVN. My freshman year I spent
my nights (many times staying up until 3am in the morning) working on
something Cappuccino related. In one night I could learned more than 6 weeks
in that second CS class.

I was less enthusiastic my second year (last year), everyone I had met who had
interesting and shared the same goals had graduated and moved off. We had
discusses starting a business, but each of our situations put those plans on
hold... Because I was ahead (because I skipped one CS class) I didn't have a
single CS class my second year, since my general education classes were not
yet fulfilled. That year was hell, but I worked on many side projects, became
much more active in the Cappuccino community, etc. I ended up interning at
Inkling in San Francisco last summer, and it was a great experience!

I'm finishing up my 3rd year now, and it's still painful. I spent my of my
first semester building BugHub (<http://bughubapp.com>), and I expect that is
what I'll be doing the rest of this semester too. The truth is, I still don't
learn much from my CS classes, honestly I should be teaching some of them (I'm
certainly more qualified to teach "Web Programming" than a man who worked on
compilers at IBM 20 years ago.

What I learned from my nearly 3 years here is that most people don't share the
same values I do. Most people are more interested in getting that piece of
paper and getting a job that pays the bills with a little left over.
University is preparing them to be QA testers. No one is prepared to take on
real software engineering challenges. They can't even really explain what an
object or class is, or what the difference is. I haven't found anyone else
interesting in starting their own company. No one can show me something
they're proud of, that they did on their own. It's been disappointing to say
the least.

So why haven't I dropped out? College has given me the opportunity to spend
time working on my own things. The time I have spent in college led to me
learning a lot, but not because of school. It's because I still stay up until
3-4am in the morning working on my own things, trying to understand new stuff,
and asking questions to some of the smartest people I know (online). Every
opportunity I will have is because of what I've done on my own, not the piece
of paper I'll get next year. I can't say that when I graduated high school I
was ready to be thrown into the industry... College gave me the opportunity to
spend a lot of time learning on my own and as a result I'm much more prepared.
The department here doesn't have a lot of offer me, but I'm fortunate to have
grown up in the age of the internet where there are so many resources to learn
if you really want it.

I can't say this will be your experience, but I was naive going into
college... and your premis reminded me a lot of me.

~~~
tsotha
>So why haven't I dropped out? College has given me the opportunity to spend
time working on my own things. The time I have spent in college led to me
learning a lot, but not because of school. It's because I still stay up until
3-4am in the morning working on my own things, trying to understand new stuff,
and asking questions to some of the smartest people I know (online).

Then what are you paying for, exactly? Why don't you drop out and just not get
a job for awhile while you do your self-study?

~~~
Me1000
Sorry, I should have added... I'm not paying for college, I only pay my living
expenses... which I would have to pay for anyway.

------
bentlegen
Most of the anti-college rhetoric originates from the US, I think, because of
the high cost. In Canada, where undergraduate tuition at some of our best
universities is below $10k/year (usually much lower), "going to college" is
far easier to rationalize.

~~~
henrikschroder
What, going to university costs money?!?

</scandinavian>

EDIT: I didn't mean to be _all_ smug about it. The cost of going to university
is different in different countries, and if it's too expensive where you're
at, maybe going as an exchange student is a viable alternative? That's the
only big regret I have, never having done that.

~~~
spindritf
Firstly, it does, in Scandinavia just like everywhere else. Secondly, it does
for a reason. Not just because they can charge (though obviously...), or that
teachers/professors would like to eat something every once in a while, but
also because getting the results is quite expensive. Take a look at the
universities rankings[1] -- how many schools in the top ten aren't British or
American?

Before we get all smug about our educational systems largely free of
exorbitant fees, arbitrary admissions, and racists nonsense like affirmative
action (well, largely), we should take a look at the results Americans are
getting. It's not all corruption and waste.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_and_university_ranking...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_and_university_rankings)
and it doesn't really matter which you choose

~~~
lightcatcher
Most "top" universities receive their ranking for the quality of the research
they produce, not quality of undergraduate education. There is likely a decent
correlation between research output and undergraduate education, which one can
determine by looking at schools that have some of the highest achieving
undergrads (such as MIT, Harvard, Stanford) and noting that these schools also
are major research centers. Note there are most certainly exceptions to this,
ie schools without a ton of research output but with great education for
undergrads (I'm thinking of Reed College here, but no evidence/just my
perception) or universities that don't do much with undergrads but are major
research centers.

However, I'd mostly like to address the fallacy of attributing the high
international rankings of American universities to the high undergraduate
tuition. At Caltech, I've heard many undergrads say that all undergrad tution
is about 5% of Caltech's budget, with a lot of the rest coming from various
research grants. At schools with less of a research focus and more undergrads,
undergrad tuition might make 30% of the budget. I can't find the blog post at
the moment, but there was a discussion a few years ago about what would happen
if MIT gave a full scholarship to all attending undergrads, and the conclusion
was that it would hurt (but not cripple) MIT financially, but appeared
possible.

~~~
Hyena
Those same universities have selection criteria which predict success after
college independent of the college attended. So it's not like they are
masterfully teaching anything; rather, it seems very much like they are simply
rebranding the best students.

To the extent that they also teach students more and better, this is actually
damaging socially because it sucks secondary educational capital into a few
locations. Lower end schools could do more and better if they housed many more
bright and ambitious students. But if they're all going to a handful of
schools, they're not improving the social networks at Random State.

~~~
lightcatcher
Although elite universities might not "masterfully teach", the students at
these universities still learn more than students at a lot of universities
simply because the classes are more difficult (these are generalizations, not
the rule). If classes are more difficult/cover more content but aren't taught
well enough/not all content covered, then highly ambitious students just end
up teaching themselves a lot of the curriculum, but they still know the
material of their classes by the end. Essentially, even though the teaching
might not be better, I believe an average MIT student studying X comes out
more knowledgeable than student from [[ state school ]].

And its an interesting thought to distribute top students. Assuming a fixed
quantity of "bright and ambitious" students, wouldn't sending more of them to
lower end schools weaken the social networks formed at elite schools and
destroy something unique about American education system?

------
tsotha
All learning is worthwhile - nobody is arguing you shouldn't go to college
because it's a waste of time. The point is you need to think very carefully
about your job prospects before you go into debt to get a degree. $15k debt
for pretty much any degree is doable - you can pay that back pretty much no
matter what job you get at graduation.

But going $200k into debt for a degree is financial suicide unless your degree
is _extremely_ marketable. An MD, say, or a law degree from Harvard or Yale.
Even if everything goes the way you're expecting, and it may not, it's going
to be decades before you're out from under that cloud.

At that debt level you've essentially traded your first house for your degree,
and unless your career is wildly successful you're going to be in your 40s
before you can afford to buy a place of your own.

------
wtvanhest
One thing about college and life in general is that you must connect with
people on their interests rather than your interests.

That is probably the single best skill you can easily get and requires no
studying, just practice and interest in other people.

If you go back to the Steve Job's video from the Stanford graduation, he talks
about connecting the dots and sitting in on classes. In my many ways talking
to random people about random things will allow you to connect more dots
later.

I loved college, both times I went and while the price and debt sucks, it was
well worth it for me.

------
delinka
I'm a "college dropout." I've made good money since, doing what I love -
designing and writing software.

I would, however, like the opportunity to take high-intensity week-long
courses on topics that I choose. Don't make me sign up for a degree just to
gain some useful knowledge. Offer me Data Structures and Algorithms, two hours
a night for five nights. Give me a chance to take some Intro to Design courses
(I didn't say 'Photoshop Tutorial')

Sure, I can get books that teach me this stuff, but sometimes I need the
social aspect of learning.

~~~
wisty
You're assuming there's a demand for learning.

~~~
mattdeboard
Yes, clearly there's no "demand for learning", that's why Khan Academy is
about to go out of business and traditional universities have refused to offer
high-quality, free online learning.

~~~
wisty
Yep, as long as it's free. I can't think of many people who pay much to learn
stuff, outside of traditional colleges. You might pay a few hundred to go to a
conference, but this is much less than you pay to get a degree.

~~~
mattdeboard
There IS demand for learning then, we seem to agree on that despite your
original post.

------
rxcfc
I can't speak for the CS major, since I wasn't one. Instead I decided to do
philosophy, which is not something I regret. I still had plenty of time to
learn Rails and work on some cool projects. Since college I've only ever been
turned down for one job due to the lack of a CS degree, and it's probably not
a job I would have enjoyed much. At my first job, I was the one who was a
full-time salaried employee while the intern was the CS grad. Since then I've
had the opportunity to work on some amazing projects with some amazing people.
I've been a core team member for SproutCore and now for Ember.js and I've
gotten to work on some great JS and Rails projects with people like Yehuda
Katz and Carl Lerche of Rails Core.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't go to college. I'm glad I did (though I
wasn't the one paying for it, so I don't have loans). However, I'm also glad I
didn't go for CS. Yes, there are some things I did miss out on by not being
CS, but instead I got to write code on my own time for my own purposes, not
because a class told me what to do. I also got to do a lot of interesting
philosophy study that I would not have done on my own time and I'm glad that I
had the motivation from school to actually do it.

There's no "one size fits all" advice for whether you should go to college or
get a CS degree, but in my case, I have no regrets.

~~~
psylence519
In my experience, Computer Science was very much _not_ about writing code, or
worse, "Learning Rails".

------
Quizzy
We must first establish the expectations of the value proposition of college
in order to share a common ground for the premise of our argument for/against
college. My value proposition for college has always been:

1\. the ability to broaden your base knowledge: if you love science/tech, then
you must also partake in liberal arts, fine arts, poli sci, social sci,
economics, etc.

2\. the ability to improve your social skills (personal growth) with like-
minded peers: high school was a fail for most people in terms of maturity and
dating (especially the geek set) and so college is an opportunity to get it
right without the stigma; the experience and maturity gained in this key skill
include romance/dating/heartbreak/bad-sex, etc.

3\. Social Networking (related to 2, but more about your professional
objective): most kids today rely too much on internet social networking as the
answer and assume that this is the best - wrong - true social networking
involves taking the interpersonal initiative to shake hands with those who
have the authority, connections and knowledge to help you along in your
studies, career, interests, and it's not easy to go up to total strangers whom
you admire and say "hi".

These three qualities of college can not be easily replicated outside of a
college environment (Number 1 is most easily replicated). However, the
assumption is that all colleges possess the above opportunities for you to
pursue, and therein lies the problem. How many colleges have the networking
leverage that makes it worthwhile to attend that college?

So, at the end of it all, what does it come down to? Prospective Networking.
The individual student MUST TAKE FULL ADVANTAGE of the one resource they
cannot easily replicate outside of college: networking with the "right" crowd,
including your peers (future CEO/visionaries/tech co-founders), professors,
researchers, guest speakers, etc.

The problem of course is, outside of the TOP 50 Universities and colleges,
what is the value of attending the second tier schools other than sex, booze
and cram sessions? Nothing. If you can't get into a Top 50 schools, I believe
that the value proposition does not merit the tuition paid for the other
schools out there.

------
JangoSteve
I wrote an article on this topic about a year ago [1], albeit from the
perspective of having gone to college. Personally, I found college to work
really well for me. It helped me figure out who I was, what I wanted to do,
and it helped me to build my network. Notice that the academics aren't in the
top 3 benefits I got from college. I'd place academics at #4.

It seems like most of the people who advocate dropping out, or just not going,
already have a really strong network built. But I didn't. I didn't even know I
wanted to build companies until after I started college.

I agree college isn't for everyone. But it felt right for me.

[1] [http://jangosteve.com/post/568504920/want-to-be-an-
entrepren...](http://jangosteve.com/post/568504920/want-to-be-an-entrepreneur-
college-may-help)

~~~
jseliger
_I agree college isn't for everyone. But it felt right for me._

There's another issue here as well: many people don't know how to do college,
and they think that college is just about going to class and doing okay in
class. It really isn't. Class, especially these days, is mostly an excuse to
meet people, to figure out what you're interested in, and, in those subjects
you _are_ interested in, to signal that interest to your professor.

I'm a grad student, and I noticed these problems—which are essentially
cultural—in many of my students, which in turn led me to write a couple essays
on the subject: <http://jseliger.com/essays> . The essays attempt to turn
implicit knowledge of the sort a lot of people acquire along the way, or
acquire from their families (especially if they come from wealthy families)
into explicit knowledge that says, "Here is how and why things work the way
they do."

------
wallflower
In America, going to college is almost always (there are exceptions) a pre-
requisite for getting hired for most white-collar job.

It is kind of like a Mafia where the parents are offered an offer they can't
refuse ('Want a good job for Johnny? Then pay up... for college')

~~~
tsotha
That's because of a little-known (by the general public, anyway) US Supreme
Court ruling in 1971 in the case of _Griggs v. Duke Power_.

Prior to that case companies were more comfortable hiring people without
college degrees because they were able to give IQ tests to prospective
employees. The court ruled tests that have a disparate impact on the racial or
sexual makeup of new hires are illegal.

Companies were forced to look for some other indicator the person they were
about to hire can read and write and is reasonably intelligent, so many of the
jobs that used to require only a high school education plus an IQ test now
require a college degree.

There are some companies that still give tests to applicants, but they're just
asking to get sued.

It's kind of ridiculous people are going tens or even hundreds of thousands of
dollars into debt as a proxy for a three-hour IQ test, but I don't see any
indication things are going to change.

------
hlian
Tim Ferriss posted a very good article on this matter [1]. Personally though,
I would advocate for everyone to at least try college, before deciding that
the college path isn't for them.

I think especially in the tech community, we expect superb technical
instruction to be handed to us. But as many commenters have already pointed
out, most of the value of an undergraduate education comes from what you learn
outside of the classroom, not from the instruction you receive in class. Those
lessons in social interaction, personal growth, and commitment typically will
serve as a strong foundation for you as you go after the next big thing.

And that foundation I think can be very reassuring, especially if your dream
is to start up your own company. If your start up doesn't pan out, you will
still have your college degree as back up, which will make it much easier for
you to apply for a job or network with old friends to find one.

Yes, it may be expensive, but there are a lot of financial resources there
that you can take advantage of if you look hard enough. Many colleges (like
Stanford) have an amazing financial aid program that make it very affordable
for you to attend.

As cletus correctly points out, college is a means to an end, but you will
only know whether it can be a mean or not unless you tried it.

[1] [http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2011/09/29/8-steps-
to-g...](http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2011/09/29/8-steps-to-getting-
what-you-want-without-formal-credentials/)

------
joshmlewis
Then go to college.

In my case I looked out and saw what it offered and said, "No thanks." That's
because I'm a unique individual and I have certain ideologies that you might
not have. You may need structure or whatever it is you're wanting in a
college, but I think I can do without. But not just doing without, doing
better without it.

tl;dr: it's not about a anti-college, it's about choice. Everyone says go to
college but at the end of the day I made a choice. And you have a choice and a
right just as much as I do.

~~~
henrikschroder
As part of the introduction for new students to the CS programme of my
university, you get to meet a few people who graduated, and they talk a bit
about what it's like getting through and out the other side.

After I graduated, I got invited as one of these people, and I also talked
about choice. Most people that end up at university have been doing what
society or their parents have been telling them all their life, and I told
them that they should all really think about their studies and that for the
first time in their lives they get to make real choice sabout their lives, and
if they find out after a while that studying this CS programme sucks for them,
then they shouldn't do it.

But if they enjoy computer science, if they avoid getting poached by companies
before they've graduated, if they finish the slog and get their master's, they
will end up having _more_ choices than they would have if they had dropped
out. You give up a little bit of freedom and opportunity now, for potentially
a lot more later on.

Attending university opens some doors and closes others. But not attending
also opens some doors and closes others. Some of these you can figure out
beforehand, but most of it you have no idea about, so in retrospect it's
impossible to know if your choice was the best one. I suspect all of us that
are a bit older are wearing tinted glasses when we give out advice to the
younger generation. :-)

That said, I have a bunch of friends who dropped out of university after
figuring out it really didn't suit them, and they're doing great. Only one of
them pondered going back to get his degree, and only because his company would
pay for it, but he ended up not doing it anyway.

I don't regret my choice to finish my degree, even though it meant I missed
the craziest years of the 90's dotcom boom. I think you won't regret your
choice either. But remember that it's never too late to go to uni if you ever
need it.

------
DanielShir
I like the tone of the post but I think it's a bit lacking in explanation on
why college is important.

College makes you develop as a person. You interact with other students, you
learn new stuff, you do your homework and the end result is - you've grown.
It's about the process, not the end result like so many anti-college posts
seem to focus on. It's the experience of college that makes it important. The
way I look at hiring college grads for instance, it's not about their grades,
it's about knowing they can stick it and do it on their own. Finishing college
is a merit.

I believe processes like college force you to develop as a person. Speaking
from my experience, it was one of the most influential experiences I have had,
and I studied Comp Sci, nothing fancy. The other would be my 5 years in the
army, which similarly most people would dismiss as a waste of time, but I
don't think I'd be the same person without it.

The way I think of it, it's about the process, and like it or not, going to
college takes you through that process. Sure it's not for everyone, but come
on people, stop hating :)

------
pathdependent
I think people in tech are a bit myopic regarding college. Traditional
_undergraduate_ programming education does seem very antiquated because the
practice of programming lends itself to autodidactism. This is less true in
other areas of education -- the ones that don't have an interpreter to tell
you what, or at least where, you have done wrong.

I'm not arguing that contemporary universities are well-designed. They are not
and there are _many_ archaic elements ripe for disruption. I just want to
point out that we have a pretty strong bias that is not necessarily
generalizable.

(Personal bias note: I thought undergraduate education was intellectually
useless, but absolutely worth it as a life experience. Now, I'm in graduate
school and I am shocked by how much I enjoy it. Additionally, I am building
something this summer to correct a structural problem with academia that I see
in my own field of interest.)

------
evoxed
You're going to have to stay somewhere a lot longer than a semester to find
students/teachers to really connect with. CivE, CS, painting, doesn't matter.
I completely understand the disappointment at going to school and finding out
that hey, not everyone is motivated by the same thing as you, not everyone has
the same goals, etc... but it's just something you have to accept. It happened
to me at my "dream school", and if you're an architecture student then that
pretty much makes you SOL. If you want to go to college, then do. Don't get
too caught up in analyzing it, ESPECIALLY if you want to major in art. If you
can keep your ideological goals and your practical goals separate, college as
it is will make a whole lot more sense.

Edit: In summary, don't let your expectations get in the way of your goals. If
school is an effective way of getting from A to B, then let it be just that.

------
richardlblair
I understand your struggles, but as my fellow commenter's point out it's more
about the process than the content.

The social interactions are important. You could end up meeting the person you
end up starting a Company with, but there are benefits outside the social
interactions. Having goals, doing the work to accomplish your goals, and then
seeing the results is something that I took away from my College experience.
Being able to say "I'm going to get a 4.0 gpa this semester", and then
developing a system to accomplish that goal is something you will carry with
you for the rest of your life.

So I say go for it. Make a decision about which institution, and pull the
trigger. Even if it isn't everything you dreamed of, stick with it and finish
it. Follow through, and go through the process. You will be thankful you did
when it's over.

------
demian
I believe there is value in:

1) a place where scientists and profesionals can get together with younger
people interested in their fields and expertise.

2) a place where this young people can form groups with similar interests.

3) a _curated_ plan for learning ("you will have an easier life if you study
some physics before tackling power generators design").

4) access to resources and freedom to act on those resources in a _meaningful_
way.

5) an _exclusive certification_ based on _merit_ that a person completed a
carefully designed training and has a level of expertise in areas where _if
things fail people die_.

If universities can't fulfill that rol, companies will (and are doing it,
specially in the states).

------
nolastan
I'm a Junior Computer Science and Visual Design student at one of the top-20
Universities in the US.

"I want to... go to college and meet like minded folks" \--> It has taken me
three years to connect with a handful of students that share my interests. On
the other hand, at one Startup Weekend I made just as many, arguably higher-
quality, connections. Therefore, I would argue an event like Startup Weekend
is a much better use of time and money than college.

"I want focus, and stop trying to solve everything and finishing nothing" \-->
I find that most course projects are turned in incomplete at the end of the
term, and there is rarely motivation to continue working on an assignment
after the course is over.

------
rodriguezartav_
In the US first year students are called Freshman, so in order to "bond"; You
need stick in there for a couple of years; That will happen in Highschool,
College, Work, Community, the In-Laws and anything else that matters in life.

------
tedkalaw
I'm back at school now after some time off and I'm happy to be back, though
when things suck it's frustratingly easy to say "welp, just need to wait for
the summer."

My goal for my remaining time at college is to learn things I cannot learn
other places and take advantage of the opportunities I have. But after
spending time in the valley, my emphasis has shifted from getting good grades
(before my time off, I obsessed over this and was constantly
anxious/depressed) to learning as much as I can - two goals which are,
amusingly, not always aligned.

You'll get out whatever you put in.

------
kulpreet
Thank you for this post. I recently got into MIT and have been torn and
confused over whether or not it is worth going. All these anti-college posts
on HN were not helping but this post shared some good perspective.

~~~
kulpreet
Thanks for the replies everyone. My main concern was that their courses are
extremely rigorous and thus would consume a huge portion of time, possibly not
leaving enough time to work on awesome side projects. Even still, I'm sure
there are other opportunities. Will write a blog post on this soon.

~~~
irahul
> My main concern was that their courses are extremely rigorous and thus would
> consume a huge portion of time, possibly not leaving enough time to work on
> awesome side projects.

You will have the rest of your life to work on your awesome side projects.
Chances are forfeiting your next iphone app to study compiling to
continuations will be a more fulfilling accomplishment in the long term.

------
pnathan
I can't really address your country's collegiate experience.

But I can address the people concerns. You will likely find that most students
don't jibe with you. You have to find your own way. Along the way, you will
find people you will be friends with, but they likely won't be entry-level
students, and taking the gap years will have separated you fairly irrevocably
from those who haven't.

If you want to go to college, go to college. Take from it all you can, even if
you can get by with less. Do well and don't depend on the approval of others.

------
cletus
Is it just me or is there a trend of reactionary posts (or just submissions?)
on the same topic? A few days ago it was Go (why Go is awesome, why I'll never
use Go, why Go has its pros and cons) and now it's college's turn.

What you realize later in life is that the point of all these steps by and
large is simply to get you to the next step.

Go to high school and your goal is to get to college. Once you get to college
nobody cares about high school, your transcript or your permanent record
anymore.

Go to college and your goal is to build a network of friends and colleagues
and to get to the working world or to a grad school.

Get to that and nobody cares about college anymore. And so on.

Granted you learn things along the way but learning really seems to be
secondary. The ability to read, an Internet connection and a Web browser is
all you really need to learn (although there is obvious value in directed
instruction, course structure, tutoring/mentoring, etc). The "learning" part
of education is probably the most interesting at the moment what with Stanford
(and others) offering courses online, the Khan Academy and so forth.

I dropped out of university on the first try. I went through several years of
"you don't need a degree". While that might be technically true it hurt my
career, I didn't have the same network of contacts that others did and (for a
time at least) I didn't have the same theoretical background.

In the end I got a mediocre degree from a mediocre institution studying part-
time for three reasons:

1\. To put me in the pile of CVs "with degree" (the "without degree" pile more
often than not just ends up in the circular file);

2\. As an exercise in finishing something. This is actually important,
particularly for programmers. Starting things is easy, finishing is hard.
There is value of sticking with college for 3-4+ years both to yourself and as
a demonstration to future employers; and

3\. Visa reasons. It would be near-impossible for me now to work in the US if
I hadn't gotten a degree.

People like to bring up Jobs, Gates and Zuck as examples of why you don't need
a degree. There are two problems with that:

1\. Statistically speaking, you aren't one of these; and

2\. _All of them went to college_.

I can't stress (2) enough. They just didn't finish. Thing is, they found their
"next thing" (well, Jobs' path was a little more roundabout).

Going to college in the US involves a more complicated decision process than
elsewhere because of cost and--let's face it--elitism.

Going to Stanford, MIT or CMU as a programmer is no doubt valuable and I won't
question the value of the education those august institutions provide but a
huge part of the value is the name. It's social proof but it's also arguably
elitism.

That same social proof comes into play when you have Google or Facebook on
your CV.

Going to such places might leave you with staggering debt. In CS, at least for
now, that doesn't seem to be much of a problem. But there are cheaper options
(eg UT Austin seems to be a well-regarded state school for CS).

Anyway, the moral of the story is that college or not you should _always_ be
looking to the next step. To put it another way: college is a means to an end
not an end in itself.

~~~
neutronicus
If your chosen field involves expensive or, worse, government-controlled
equipment, college is an absolute must. As a nuclear engineering student, I
got to learn using software and materials it would have been literally
impossible for me to obtain otherwise.

~~~
sliverstorm
This is an important detail so oft-forgotten by those neck-deep in software.

------
kabdib
I'm not down on college -- I learned a hell of a lot there. I'm down on
degrees.

(I just interviewed a person sporting a BA, a Masters, a PhD and a high-
falutin' title who couldn't write a simple "find the length of a string"
function. It was . . . I don't have words; I was absolutely floored).

Show me that you can design, write and debug code, and that you're not a jerk,
and you're in business. That's all I care about.

------
kylemaxwell
I've got no disagreement with people who take a "gap year" or two before going
to university. This works well because now you have a much better sense of
what matters to you. That sense will only grow and sharpen as you spend time
around a lot of different ideas and people.

Best wishes, although I'm afraid I don't know enough to suggest what
institutions may work for you.

------
fatjokes
If it's Eur17 a semester, then I absolutely encourage you to go into
literature/art. You won't be taking on crushing debt in tuition, and you can
always go back and study something employable in the future if you so desire.

The problem only exists when spoiled American kids take on USD100k+ of debt to
study an unemployable major.

------
hengli
I can't imagine trying to learn art and literature without formal higher
education. Programming... maybe, but literature? no. But yeah, just because
it's mandatory for literature doesn't mean it's mandatory for programming.
However there's a distinction between programming and CS.

------
Bricejm
The social interaction and relationships formed in college sometimes outweigh
the content being studied.

~~~
tobiasSoftware
That's definitely the case for me. I'm going to move in with two friends I
made from college, both are very smart, one is a programmer with ideas to form
his own startup, working with him is so much more useful than any class from
college.

