
Hey Apple, a Five-Year-Old Computer Isn’t ‘Sad’ - tetraodonpuffer
http://ifixit.org/blog/7998/sad-apple/
======
mariodiana
Given the audience, and the accepted notion that Apple, as a business, wants
people to buy their hardware, isn't Schiller's comment meant as something of a
joke?

This is what's wrong with the Internet! The reaction reminds me of Madeleine
Albright's comment about there being "a special place in Hell for women who
don't support other women," a comment she made at a Hillary Clinton function.
Apparently, Ms. Albright has been making this comment at the end of speeches
for years. Do you know why? Because in the context it's funny. It's funny
because it's exaggerated, quasi-ridiculous thing to say. But, the last time
she said it, at the Clinton rally, people in the Twitterverse -- or whatever
we're calling it -- took offense and went crazy.

I'm sorry, but both Albright's comment and Schiller's comment are benign
jokes. The Internet manufactures outrage.

~~~
m3rc
So? It's still a shitty joke, and in the Apple case it breaks a key rule of
comedy by punching down.

It also leaves a really bad taste in your mouth for the rest of the address
because instead of Apple trying to increase profits by building better
products, it starts to become Apple guilting people into buying things they
don't need just because their possessions are old. It especially feels crappy
when no product they unveiled was anything except a yearly iteration.

~~~
tombert
If a web developer gets frustrated by having to support Internet Explorer 8,
is that offensive? "How dare you! You're punching down at people who are stuck
with Windows XP!"

The internet is very good at being offended by everything.

~~~
m3rc
Not upgrading from IE8 is the same as using a laptop made 5 years ago now?

~~~
tombert
My point is that no one has this outrage machine when web developers whine
about Internet Explorer, even though plenty of people are stuck using it for
financial reasons, just like people who are stuck with five-year-old
computers, and as a developer, I actually do find it frustrating when I have
to support older hardware.

I'll admit the choice of the word "sad" might have been poor, but it's hardly
worth getting offended over.

~~~
mikeash
Aren't there better alternatives to IE that don't cost money? That doesn't
seem to be the same at all. Much of the reason older PCs are still useful is
_because_ the software is still mutable, often at no monetary cost.

~~~
tombert
Plenty of companies cannot upgrade away from IE because the cost would be too
high. I worked at a company that only worked with IE7 at one point.

Sure, I could have said "just use Firefox" or "just use Chrome...It's free!",
but that wasn't really an option.

Now, granted, I'm aware that a company is not the same as a person, but it was
just a dumb example I used to kind of point out that getting offended because
Apple "punched down" is kind of arbitrary.

~~~
mikeash
Why wasn't using Firefox or Chrome an option? They're free. Maybe corporate
policy prohibited it, but that means it's basically a _choice_ to keep using
old and broken stuff.

People find Apple's statement offensive because the people who use old PCs
tend to be poor, so that statement was basically shitting on poor people for
not having the means to buy new electronics. I don't see how your example
compares.

~~~
tombert
Their web app broke when using anything but Internet Explorer 7, and they
couldn't afford to upgrade it to modern web standards (they actually did get
an estimate to do exactly that), so no, they didn't have a choice, really.

I'm done with this topic; be as offended as you want.

~~~
mikeash
Are you under the impression that it's not possible to have two browsers
installed simultaneously?

~~~
rakoo
Are you under the impression that all web pages and all web applications have
been created with utmost respect for the standard and only the one standard
(and not a specific browser in mind) and have been maintained for the last 10
years ?

Because those applications, that _only_ work with IE (and not a too recent one
!) do exist, and are a PITA to work with. It's not like the application would
have some glitches or some CSS properties that don't render correctly with
Chrome or Firefox; it's a real "does not work".

~~~
mikeash
I struggle to understand the relevance of this comment. What have I said that
indicates I think such web apps don't exist? Of course they do. My point is
that they don't mean you can't run a better browser, for _other_ web stuff.

~~~
h_r
It's obvious you never worked for a large bureaucratic company having to
support many intranet legacy web apps. Of course you can run another browser
for the other stuff. This is about the financial costs of software resulting
in "corporate standards" including some ancient browser.

This is not at all unusual. And it's hardly a thing to flame the messenger on.
It's just a reality some people deal with.

~~~
mikeash
I covered that above: "Maybe corporate policy prohibited it, but that means
it's basically a choice to keep using old and broken stuff."

I acknowledge and understand that some web sites require ancient browsers and
some companies have policies prohibiting alternatives. I just don't see that
being at all related to poor people using old computers, because poor people
do it out of necessity, while corporate policies are a choice. I'm not flaming
the messenger because of these policies, I'm just getting a bit annoyed that
people keep telling me irrelevant things and criticizing me for things I'm not
saying.

------
nextos
I own a 5-year-old MacBook Air 11, which has run only Linux since day 1 (and
it does an admirable job at it, unlike other Macs, but that's not relevant
here).

So for all practical purposes this is a PC with an Apple logo. It it is really
snappy, silent, and battery lasts approximately 5 hours. There's nothing sad
about it.

Sad is having to trash fine hardware because its manufacturer won't release
updates. Sad is having new versions of OSes running slower and slower. Sad is
planned obsolescence.

~~~
JustSomeNobody
Sad is not being able to upgrade RAM and HD.

I love my rMBP, but I know it won't last as long as it could have if I could
upgrade it.

I think most of this comes not from planned obsolescence, but from a
ridiculous drive for thinness. Apple is obsessed with thin.

~~~
vu3rdd
Very nicely said!

Sad is also being at the mercy of Apple to do "upgrades" of software, being at
the mercy of Apple for security fixes.. the list goes on.

------
tombert
What the hell? This story has made the front page of HN three times now. Even
if it were a "real", important story, hasn't it been thoroughly covered?

~~~
studentrob
No kidding. I don't know if I'm more sad if (a) this is a PR campaign or (b)
independent people feel hurt that a marketing guy touted his own product over
a competitor's during his own company's product demo.

Even in the case of (b) it definitely isn't HN news worthy. There's nothing
interesting or high tech about it. Just another day in the world of marketing.

------
sdegutis
We have a perfectly good iPhone 3G (not even 3GS, just plain old 3G) which I
think I bought in 2009. But it can't access the App Store anymore. Like, it
literally won't show the page correctly if you try loading it up. The CSS is
all broken, and none of the buttons or links actually work (presumably the
JavaScript is broken too).

So probably around 2012 I bought an iPhone 4 (not even an iPhone 4S, just
plain old 4). And even though the App Store still works on that, it was
dropped by iOS 8, so we can't even get most of the useful new apps that come
out, because most (if not all) of them require iOS 8 or higher.

This is Apple's attitude towards anyone who isn't spending hundreds or
thousands of dollars on their products every 2 or 3 years: you're sad and
pathetic, and screw you.

Back when Steve was in charge, they had top notch hardware and it lasted
forever. Anyone who still has an original iPod knows those things still work
amazingly well, they were built to last. But now Apple's software and hardware
is going downhill quickly, so the high price tag is no longer justifiable.
They've gone the way of Thinkpads after Lenovo took them over.

I felt like a fool in 2012 or 2013, when I suggested to my employer that
instead of buying me a MacBook Pro work computer, he buy a Mac Pro, because it
would be around longer, and all we'd need to do was swap out the internals to
upgrade it, which would be much cheaper than buying a whole new MacBook Pro.
Literally like less than a year later, Apple came out with a brand new type of
Mac Pro, completely ditching the kind they had what seemed like forever until
then, and it's all incompatible internals now.

Honestly I'm tired of Apple's crap and I'm abandoning ship. I'll still use
this stupid MBP that I bought for myself a few years ago, but when it
inevitably dies in a few years and can't be fixed, I'll probably look into
older IBM Thinkpads and switch to Linux full time.

------
Ccecil
Currently all of my PCs, laptop and DSLR are over 5 years old and running
strong. I am still using my HTC evo 4g I got 5 years ago...I replaced the
battery once but that is all.

It is a shame we live in this world where things are thrown out every couple
years...cars become "too expensive to fix" after a couple years (or totalled
by insurance companies due to minor accidents).

I wish there was an easy solution...but I don't see anything changing when the
major corporations encourage this type of planned expiration date.

------
ch8230
Schiller's comments are out of touch with the reality many people face but the
author took the Schiller's comments way too personally.

------
dblooman
What is amusing is that Apple build such good quality Macbooks now, people are
keeping them for 5 years. My 2 and half year old MBP handles any dev task I
throw at it fine, can't imagine replacing it for a couple more years at least.
I also know a lot of gamers, they are happy playing at 1080p with 2500 or 3500
series CPU's as they are mostly playing CS:GO or Dota 2.

~~~
azurelogic
I just refurbed my '09 13" MBP. New thermal paste, cleaned the intake/exhaust,
new battery, replaced the battery indicator/sleep sensor (ribbon cable got
damaged). All in: ~$70. It still has 8 GB RAM and an SSD from my previous
upgrades. It runs El Capitan just fine, and the fan is barely audible. I'm
going to be so disappointed when I eventually drop cash on a rMBP, knowing
that I'll never be able to do all of that in the future.

------
stared
I have Macbook Pro Mid 2009 (with RAM and SSD upgrades) and it still works
fine. They should be proud that they make laptops that last longer than na few
years! But I well understand why they would prefer to have people trashing
them after 3 years.

I do consider buying a new... but only once matte display becomes an option.
(I prefer a slower laptop to a glossy, distracting mirror.)

------
devy
Yes, Phil's comment about 5-year old PCs still in use might seem to be out
touch for a lot of people especially the ones who aren't Apple products'
demographics. But consider these points:

1) Moore's Law was still in effect in the past five years. iOS devices
hardware have been taking full advantage of that. So for roughly the same
price range, you will get a 12x more performant hardware [1] for the same
price, probably more energy efficient device too. Ain't it better if you can
afford?

2) Apple started to emphasize their environmental friendliness (including
energy efficiency) in manufacturing process and product raw materials and has
been advancing their game each year[2]. So a once more toxic product made 5
years ago might be manufactured less so. In the process of replacing this
5-year old product, it is actually moving us forward to a more environmental
friendly life style. Similarly, like the light bulb evolution: incandescent ->
CFL -> LED etc.

There are probably other connotations behind that comment when Phil said it.
Since 2/3 of the revenues were from selling iOS devices[3], Apple is still a
hardware company like it or not. If they can sell you a piece of faster, more
energy efficient and environment friendlier hardware than the one from
yesteryear and in the mean time making a huge profit from that, wouldn't it be
merrier for both them and the consumer?

[1] [https://browser.primatelabs.com/ios-
benchmarks](https://browser.primatelabs.com/ios-benchmarks)

[2] [http://www.apple.com/environment/](http://www.apple.com/environment/)

[3]
[http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/apple/apple-q1-2016-financial...](http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/apple/apple-q1-2016-financial-
results-how-many-iphones-ipads-watch-macs-sold-revenue-results-3581769/)

~~~
pfg
> 2) Apple started to emphasize their environmental friendliness (including
> energy efficiency) in manufacturing process and product raw materials and
> has been advancing their game each year[2]. So a once more toxic product
> made 5 years ago might be manufactured less so. In the process of replacing
> this 5-year old product, it is actually moving us forward to a more
> environmental friendly life style. Similarly, like the light bulb evolution:
> incandescent -> CFL -> LED etc.

That's an odd argument to make. Producing a new device (as opposed to
continuing to use your existing one) will always be worse for the environment,
other than with regards to your first argument (energy efficiency). Even with
energy efficiency in mind, it's questionable at best - CPU/GPU performance is
only part of the equation, and recent devices certainly don't use 12x less
energy compared to ones from 5 years ago.

------
digi_owl
I think everything but the HDDs and the PSU in the desktop i am typing this on
is approaching a decade of service (PSU because the fan burned out, but then
it was in turn salvaged from an older build).

------
godzillabrennus
I have an almost 9 year old MacBook Pro from before the unibody redesign. It
runs El Capitan fine. I lend it to friends and family during a crisis. Apple
computers last far longer than 5 years.

------
maker1138
Someone said something that I disagree with! The horror! The outrage! It
should be illegal!

That's one of the biggest problems with society today. People need to learn to
grow up.

------
georgespencer
tl;dr: lots of people on the internet can't take a joke.

~~~
mempko
Jokes from people with power are more than jokes.

------
mempko
I have a 7 year old mac at home. Much slower now with Apple's latest OS, even
with RAM upgrade.

------
amelius
The deeper problem is capitalism. Too bad nobody ever comes up with good ways
to fix it.

~~~
collyw
There are plenty of suggestions on how to fix it, but those in power make sure
they never see the light of day.

~~~
rhinoceraptor
There were some 'suggestions' attempted in the 20th century, and they lead to
the deaths of millions of people.

------
draw_down
This again?

------
logicallee
(I wish to delete this comment.)

~~~
ktRolster
I hope we at least get a 20ghz cpu (in consumer boxes) before we hit the limit
of speed increases. (and adding more cores isn't the same)

~~~
mikeash
20GHz at what IPC? Performance isn't just clock rate and core count, there's
also been a big improvement over the years in how many instructions the CPU
can execute per clock cycle. GHz has been more or less stagnant since the P4,
but single-core speeds have still gone up significantly.

------
smrtinsert
I would say Apple is out of touch with reality but the homeless and the poor
feel compelled to buy iphones so what do I know.

~~~
collyw
How do you know poor people bought their iPhones? They may have been handed
down after someone else's 18 month contract was up.

(When I travelled in some remote parts of Nepal the people were very poor but
many had smartphones. There weren't any mobile shops for hundreds of miles, so
my guess is that they were gifted to them).

------
apdinin
Devil's advocate here... and I'm adding the caveat that I still use my iPad 1
daily (with the grandfathered, unlimited data plan).

A lot of this is about generating revenues. At the end of the day, Apple is a
public corporation. It's not a charity. Apple's primary reason for existence
is to generate shareholder value. It's hard for a device company to do that if
they aren't... you know... selling devices.

Apple doesn't believe everyone should buy a new Apple product every 5 years.
Sure, they'd love it, but that's not the market they're targeting. Apple has
branded itself as a luxury technology brand. Would someone make this same
argument about Lexus or Rolex or Coach?

If you can't afford that shiny new Macbook, there are plenty of alternate
options. No one is forcing people to buy Apple products.

Beyond pricing, older technology can limit software innovation. What if every
App developer out there -- including the folks at apple developing the latest
versions of iOS -- still had to support my "ancient" iPad 1?

Legacy support would put a lot of young companies out of business. As a
developer, one of things that costs me the most time is cross-device support.
It's a huge drain on resources, and not every company can afford it.

