
The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District - danso
https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-europe/the-uncertain-fate-of-amsterdams-red-light-district
======
sktrdie
I have been living in Amsterdam for about half a year. Met lots of locals. The
red light district is not liked. It’s full of trashy people wanting to do
drugs and have sex. Sure if you find those to be pleasures of life then be my
guest, but the locals hate it: imagine having an entire neighborhood ruined by
these kind of people, who let me tell you are not the most respectful kind.

But the real issue is that none of the girl prostitutes are locals. Not once I
heard of a local Dutch girl doing this. And it’s also mostly lots of people
that need he money. If the brothels were full of dutch-rich women then I’d be
fine with it... but reality is that it’s not and it encourages poorer people
to participate in the activity. And in a way it exploits these people even if
it’s their choice.

Also let’s not forget the immortal rule: wherever there’s money, there’s
corruption.

So unfortunately I don’t favor the red light district. Maybe if it was far
from the center and if it was done in a way where you would be 100% sure where
nobody was exploited, then yes. But reality is that nobody can know for sure
that exploitation doesn’t happen.

But then there’s also the other side of the coin that if you make it illegal
it will anyway happen in a worst manner... on the streets and with more
exploitation.

So maybe having something organized and outside cultural city center seems
like a good win-win situation.

~~~
close04
> Not once I heard of a local Dutch girl doing this.

How is this relevant? I mean in what manner would nationality change your
opinion on this topic?

~~~
moccachino
I read them to mean that the fact that no Dutch girl is doing it is indicative
of exploitation. Dutch people generally have lots of opportunities that many
other nationalities don't.

It's impossible to look at someone and tell with certainty that they are being
exploited, but it's easy to look at a group of people and notice if any of
them are from the local privileged peoples, and if most of them are from
poorer regions.

~~~
close04
> it is indicative of exploitation

In rich countries a lot of low paying jobs are performed by foreigners coming
from poorer countries. I'm sure almost nobody _enjoys_ any of those jobs but
they do them because they need the money and have little choice.

And by the nature of these low paying jobs they _only_ attract people with no
other options, foreigners dreaming about a better life, completely unaware of
the risks. This opens the door to abuse. I'm certain that plenty of locals
(whatever country we're talking about) would do this job if it payed really
well.

------
dijit
The red-light district is for sure a tourist attraction, for people who are
dumbfounded and awestruck to people going on drug fuelled benders.

I am the former, I've been through the red light district at night and there
are a few bro's but generally it was decent.

The tourism culture seems to actively promote seedy/druggy stuff though..
Maybe if it wasn't being pushed it would be better?

------
Synaesthesia
One of my favourite authors is Chris Hedges. I was surprised to discover he is
against decriminalisation of sex work. His arguments actually won me over.

[https://www.truthdig.com/articles/the-real-face-of-
prostitut...](https://www.truthdig.com/articles/the-real-face-of-
prostitution/)

[https://www.truthdig.com/articles/prostitution-being-
raped-f...](https://www.truthdig.com/articles/prostitution-being-raped-for-a-
living/)

[https://www.truthdig.com/articles/the-underbelly-of-the-
sex-...](https://www.truthdig.com/articles/the-underbelly-of-the-sex-trade-
industry/)

~~~
landryraccoon
I'm was unclear on something - is Chris Hedges saying that sex workers should
be themselves charged with a criminal offense, or that only pimps should be?

Those blog posts make it out that sex work is a crime against the sex workers;
i.e., it is prostitutes that are the victims. If that is indeed the case then
prostitutes should be able to go freely to the police for protection, without
fear of prosecution, since they are the victims. So that makes it unclear to
me what it means that Hedges is against decriminalization.

~~~
chimeracoder
> Those blog posts make it out that sex work is a crime against the sex
> workers; i.e., it is prostitutes that are the victims. If that is indeed the
> case then prostitutes should be able to go freely to the police for
> protection, without fear of prosecution, since they are the victims. So that
> makes it unclear to me what it means that Hedges is against
> decriminalization.

He's of a school of thought that sex workers are victims, but since most sex
workers do sex work voluntarily, it means that he views sex workers as victims
of their own harmful actions. The implication (whether or not he states it
directly) is that sex workers need to be saved from their own harmful actions
(ie, the work they do voluntarily) because otherwise they will harm
themselves.

While it's dressed in secular rhetoric, at its core, it's a very Puritanical,
moralistic argument that ultimately is used to justify people taking steps to
"save" sex workers from their "wrongful (harmful) actions".

Unsurprisingly, sex workers do not like him or his work.

------
TurkishPoptart
I wish Seattle had a Red-Light district, so that I could avoid it. Instead,
there are homeless and drug-addicted people everywhere, in need of help.

------
gwbas1c
When I went through the red light district in 2008, I didn't find it anywhere
near as sketchy as half of San Francisco.

The only disappointment that I had is that Dutch weed isn't anywhere as good
as Californian weed.

That being said: If I were Dutch, I wouldn't want to raise a family within
biking distance of the red light district. It's practically across the street
from a major train station. Dutch children have a lot of independence, and I
wouldn't want an 8, 12, or 16 year old stumbling into the red light district
by accident.

------
kilo_bravo_3
Everyone is cool from afar with sexwork until a meth head is jerking it on
their doorstep. "Like, wouldn't you rather have it be regulated and legal?"

Everyone is cool from afar with homeless until they're sleeping in their own
doorway. "Like, why are you trying to get rid of all of these poor homeless
people?"

"What's the big deal, maaaaan?" they ask, "Why do you have a problem with it?"

But the second the problem comes to their own doorstep they call the cops.

It's one of the most delicious hypocrisies of the internet. People get to
bitch about people dealing with all of the negative aspects of any problem
while self-righteously pretending to be open and accepting from thousands of
miles away.

~~~
lacker
They could operate more like marijuana sales do here in California. You have
to get a license and the number of licenses in an area is limited, so there
isn’t a “district”. Advertising is restricted. Most dispensaries are just
bland unmarked buildings in inexpensive office or warehouse areas.

It just seems possible to avoid both black markets and “vice districts”.

~~~
Animats
That's how Switzerland does it. Prostitution is legal, regulated, and hookers
charge value added tax like every other business.

Amsterdam's problem, from the article, seems to be tourism, not sex. The city
is being overwhelmed by visitors.

------
tempguy9999
> Everyone is cool from afar with sexwork until a meth head is jerking it on
> their doorstep

You are confusing or conflating sex work with drug use.

> Everyone is cool from afar with homeless until they're sleeping in their own
> doorway

I would be ok with that; you don't speak for me.

> self-righteously

Yeah, sure. None of your post reflects on your self-centredness.

~~~
toasterlovin
What if a homeless person takes a shit in your door step right in the broad
daylight (actual thing that happened at my place of work several years ago).
Cool with that as well?

~~~
geggam
Public restrooms are a problem in many areas. Take San Francisco. People piss
and shit on the streets, you would think its because they have no couth, I
almost ended up shitting on the street because no one lets you use their
toilet without buying something and the friggin lines were too long.

I still dont understand why folks dont let tiny houses and allocate certain
parking lots to let the homeless use for sleeping at night. Its not like you
can pretend they arent there and make them disappear

~~~
toasterlovin
Shitting _in the bushes_ or _behind a dumpster_ because you simply have to go
and there's no restroom within reach is an act of necessity. Many of us have
found ourselves so disposed. Shitting on someone's _doorstep_ is not something
anyone needs to do, ever.

~~~
geggam
Find me a bush on market street in the finance district.

~~~
toasterlovin
Although I am somewhat tempted to see exactly how far you will bend over
backwards to justify people shitting in doorways in broad daylight, I will
resist the temptation and move on. Take care.

~~~
geggam
:) i agree its not normal behavior but the homeless have been dehumanized
enough they arent quite normal. Add a bit of mental issues and no public
poopers... its simple to understand

