
Conspiracy theories about Covid-19 vaccines may prevent herd immunity - helsinkiandrew
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/08/29/conspiracy-theories-about-covid-19-vaccines-may-prevent-herd-immunity
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K0nserv
While I’m not a vaccine sceptic nor do I subscribe to any of the wild
conspiracy theories surrounding vaccines I did grow up in Sweden during the
Swine Flu. The vaccine, Pandemrix[0], used for the Swine Flu in Sweden caused
an increase in the chance of getting narcolepsy for children aged 12-16.
Because of this I am a bit vary of a new vaccine developed very rapidly in
response to a novel disease.

0:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandemrix](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandemrix)

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anoncake
It's unfortunate that conspiracy theorist and antivaxxers give those who are
sceptic for rational reasons a bad name.

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walterbell
When did "jabs" become a synonym for "vaccine"? Australian health officials
have been using the term as well. This is imprecise if not outright incorrect
language: a drug delivery mechanism (injection or "jab") is independent of the
drug being delivered.

Different drugs have different fitness for purpose, side effects and
compatibility with other drugs. There is a broad range of research drugs
proposed for conferring immunity to SARS-COV-2, only a subset of which have
the properties (e.g. low virus dose) of a traditional vaccine.

If health officials want to increase trust, they may want to use more precise
language to separate known-good approaches from not-yet-known-good, a.k.a.
ongoing research. Do not blur scientific and legal/financial liability
categories, which vary by the drug being injected.

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kettro
We've been using "shots" as a synonym for ages. I don't think it's really an
issue.

~~~
walterbell
"Shots" are indeed a longstanding noun/synonym for vaccines.

"Jab" is a verb for the delivery of many different drugs.

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bernie_simon
Before we start worrying about herd immunity, we need to show that the
vaccines for covid-19 prevent transmission of the virus as well as prevent or
mitigate the symptoms of covid-19. It is not always the case that an effective
vaccine prevents transmission of the disease.

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aaron695
The Oxford/AstraZeneca Vaccination uses HEK-293 cells, a strain originally
derived from human kidney cells grown in an aborted fetus.

So how about we skip the low brow attacks on "Conspiracy theories" and talk
about the multitude of reasons it's unlikely Covid-19 vaccines will hit herd
immunity.

Like, a massive part of the world can't afford vaccines, and we haven't helped
them in full in the past so the claim we will now is a bit of a joke.

~~~
anoncake
How much spare capacity for manufacturing vaccines does even exist?
Manufacturing 7.5 billion doses could take a while.

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collyw
Vaccines usually take around 10 years to develop, now we are trying to rush
them out in around a year. Russia already developed a vaccine, but no one
seems interested, instead we are expecting the rushed one from the west to be
somehow better / more trustworthy. Meanwhile hydroxychloride is used by
millions worldwide without issue, yet only now it is considered dangerous for
treating covid.

There are so many contradictions surrounding covid, it's not surprising that
the public aren't interested in what scientists have to say.

~~~
helsinkiandrew
No offence but I thought this was HN not reddit:

Hydroxychloride isn’t a COVID-19 vaccine. It has anti viral and anti anti
inflammatory properties that might help if you have the virus but it won’t
give you immunity from COVID-19

The Russian vaccine is at the same stage in development as the ‘ones from the
west’ they’ve just skipped testing and said it’s ready presumably for
political reasons (they have named it Sputnik)

~~~
collyw
I didn't say it was a vaccine, but some recent studies have shown promising
results when the correct dosage is used. (30% drop in mortality, which doesn't
sound amazing as far as I am aware, flu vaccines are only around 50%
effective). Despite having been around for years it is only now declared to
dangeorus to treat covid - that's what I don't get (without going down the
narrative of "no money to be made that way").

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7za_j7f3L0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7za_j7f3L0)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBn4e69tGlg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBn4e69tGlg)

At the moment numbers are going up in Spain, but the hospitals are not
overloaded and the deaths are staying pretty low. At the point I am not sure
why we are pushing so hard for a vaccine.

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tinus_hn
I don’t really care. If people don’t want to get vaccinated that’s their
problem. As long as they don’t ask others to keep the infinite quarantine.

~~~
jlokier
It sounds like you don't understand the point of "herd immunity".

If individual people don't want to get vaccinated, it's _not_ just their
problem.

It contributes risk to _everyone else_ , by pushing the R number higher,
increasing the size and duration of clusters, and potentially tipping the
balance towards permanent pandemic instead of the disease fading out.

That's the point.

In light of that, "as long as they don't ask others to keep the infinite
quarantine" doesn't make sense. If lots of individual people decide not to get
vaccinated (assuming there's an effective one), they won't be the ones asking
for stronger quarantine.

~~~
tinus_hn
I still don’t care. The herd immunity story only matters if for some reason a
large amount of people has a valid reason why they can’t be vaccinated.

Any useful coronavirus vaccine has to work for the vulnerable people anyway,
the old, the obese, the diabetics etcetera and these would be the people with
a valid reason.

If these people can get vaccinated everyone can choose, get vaccinated or run
the risk. I don’t care. And there is no herd immunity story.

~~~
jlokier
That is not how things actually work.

First, many people with relevant "underlying health conditions" _don 't know
they have them yet_.

The public warnings talk about visible things (obesity etc) because they are
the only ones it is useful to publicise. It doesn't mean they are the only
relevant conditions.

Second, Covid-19 strikes down many healthy people, and "long covid" is an
awful long-term disability.

Third, vaccines aren't perfect at an individual level. Their use tips the
balance to the disease dying out, but they don't confer perfect protection to
every individual that is vaccinated. People still depend on each other, so
herd immunity still _matters_.

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db48x
Speculation aside, you don't need a vaccine in order to get herd immunity.

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PeterStuer
While technically correct, I don't get what you are implying here. Just let
nature run its course? Cull the weak?

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db48x
I'm not implying anything. I'm saying that we'll end up with herd immunity
whether we successfully make and distribute a vaccine or not. There are two
ways to get that outcome: the easy way and the hard way. The linked article is
wrong because it suggests that the easy way is the only way.

~~~
PeterStuer
You could argue immunity can _always_ be obtained the 'hard' way, even for a
virus that seems not to induce it, as when the last human succumbs the
infection rate has effectively gone to 0.

We refer to those points as 'technicalities'.

