

Why Google Earth Can't Show You Israel - amduser29
http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/06/google-israel-us

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yuvadam
This is not new, and has been known for many years.

Interestingly enough, this policy is awkward - borderline useless - for two
reasons. First, _any_ satellite imagery, at any resolution, can be purchased
on the private market, for the right price. Maybe not from the US, but it's
not like the US is the only country that collects satellite imagery.

But there is a more interesting aspect to this story. Israel _does_ allow
publishing high-resolution imagery of its territories, given that they have
been censored. Thus, you get ridiculous images such as a huge park in the
middle of Tel Aviv, where clearly the Kirya [1] usually stands.

The fun starts once you diff a censored map with a publicly available one,
even if it's low-res. Even an untrained eye can easily spot places that
someone does not want you to look at. (I have been toying with the idea of
mining satellite imagery and running image diffs between censored and
uncensored versions of the same area.)

Ridiculous, considering that most secret places blend in perfectly with their
surroundings.

Had they not been censored, no one would notice these facilities.

[1] - <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HaKirya>

~~~
joebadmo
Julian Sanchez called this the Redactor's Dilemma:
[http://www.juliansanchez.com/2009/12/08/the-redactors-
dilemm...](http://www.juliansanchez.com/2009/12/08/the-redactors-dilemma/)

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darklajid
Living in TLV for a week now. This annoys me, for various practical reasons: I
became (maybe a bad thing?) dependent on decent, free and _readable_ maps.
Maps are easy to get by, but I am used to get a decent preview of places I'm
interested in. I'd love to explore the country virtually and check out places
of interest, possible targets for a day off or a weekend trip.

Pretty certainly someone, somewhere thought that this would be necessary and a
good idea, but I fail to grasp the reasons. It seems as if the 'privacy'
gained by censoring/prohibiting this kind of imagery is borderline security by
obscurity. It's not like anyone really interested in these maps couldn't get
them from other places - or travel the country and look for places of
interest. It just annoys the laymen - like me.

What am I missing?

~~~
rmc
Not as good as satilite imagery, but openstreetmap[1], a wiki for maps, is not
US based and is an open wiki. and might have maps that help you.

Some charity sponsored some aerial imagery of Gaza and mapped that well[2].

[1]
[http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=32.29&lon=34.03&zo...](http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=32.29&lon=34.03&zoom=7&layers=M)
[2][http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=31.51&lon=34.4543&...](http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=31.51&lon=34.4543&zoom=14&layers=M)

~~~
darklajid
Thanks. I know and like that project. What I tried (and failed?) to say was
that I wish for

a) decent _readable_ (here's the focus.. I cannot, yet, read hebrew) maps.
Google Maps is actually not that bad for that so far.

b) a way to explore points of interests in advance: This needs satellite
images that have a high resolution. OSM doesn't help here for all I can tell.

~~~
rmc
_a) decent _readable_ (here's the focus.. I cannot, yet, read hebrew) maps.
Google Maps is actually not that bad for that so far._

Open Data to the rescue! The folks at Wikipedia (I think) have made a map
based on all the different languages. Here's Isreal with English names:
[http://toolserver.org/~osm/locale/en.html?zoom=8&lat=31....](http://toolserver.org/~osm/locale/en.html?zoom=8&lat=31.72116&lon=34.27185&layers=BT)

~~~
rmc
On a related note, OpenStreetMap has allowed minority languages such as Basque
(<http://www.euskalmapa.com/>), Scottish Gaelic (<http://osmalba.org/>), Irish
([http://maps.openstreetmap.ie/?zoom=7&lat=53.55822&lo...](http://maps.openstreetmap.ie/?zoom=7&lat=53.55822&lon=-7.85303&layers=B000TFFFFFFFFFFF))
to make their own custom map in their language.

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tibbon
How is this not a violation of the first amendment? They aren't US government
buildings (which still exist on the map, just some things are occasionally
blurred). Why as an American company can't I take pictures of anything I want
from the sky and post them online?

Furthermore, its just silly in an international market. Thinking that this
will make images of Israel go away to protect them is just silly. Useless
legislation is useless and a waste of taxpayer time and money.

We don't do this for any other country/ally. As a non-religious American, I
quite honestly don't understand why we have such a relationship with Israel as
it yields us zero benefit and many losses.

~~~
dimitar
The US treats Israel like an intelligence/military base in the Middle East.
Why wouldn't you support your soldiers?

A bonus is that Israel is still a sovereign nation and if it for example bombs
Syrian nuclear reactors, the United States has zero responsibility. Which can
leave the US to pursue détente with any country it likes, regardless the
Israel protest.

A nations power is measured not only in its military capabilities but in its
allies. The US has many, many allies but not that many _loyal_ ones especially
in the Middle East.

The benefits are way too many, but very few of them are international-PR-
related. Except of course domestically, which is much, much more important to
any politician.

~~~
cstavish
In theory, you are correct about the US having "zero responsibility" for
actions of Israel. In reality, however, the US gets a ton of flak for
supporting Israel, despite some of their questionable practices. Most of
Israel's antagonists effectively equate Israel to the US. Is such a sentiment
unfounded? Not entirely, considering that our politicians bend over backwards
for Israel.

I respect Israel, and I see the value in a healthy relationship with it.
However, the US should be looking out for the best interests of Israel, which
are _not_ the continued oppression of the Palestinian people. Many Israelis
understand that a two-state solution is the only sustainable
solution...unfortunately, Netanyahu does not realize that. The US needs to
push Israel in the right direction, for the sake of our shared relationship
(and Israel itself).

~~~
maratd
Exactly what is stopping the Palestinians from having a functional state? They
have been left to their own devices for quite a while now ... and what have
they come up with? A militant party sworn to the destruction of their neighbor
and another party so weak, it has no choice but to support the militant one.
Yup! There's a recipe for peace!

There is nothing Israel/US/UN/Europe/etc. can do to make the Palestinians
create a decent government. Only the Palestinians can do that.

~~~
jbm
While I won't bother bringing this topic onto the forum, you should be
intelligent enough to know that this is an exaggeration and slanted view of
the more complex reality.

~~~
maratd
I'm intelligent enough to know that if it there was a "more complex reality",
you would have astutely pointed it out. The truth is that the situation is
very simple and that those who try to veil reality in complex sophistry are
simply parasites who wish to benefit through the misery of others. Shame on
you!

~~~
jbm
HN is no place to discuss emotionally charged questions of nationality and
history. Your reply illustrates the reason why.

Keeping aside the possibility that you are a troll, it simply makes no sense
to bring up issues related to the Palestinian / Israeli conflict. This is not
a thread about it, and I have no time to go into detail about historical
grievances of either party in the conflict.

It is easy and pat to make simple, childish judgments based on one's race,
religion or prejudices. If you want to stick to that level, it is your loss.
The idea that the conflict is one side of monsters and one side of tragic
heroes is comedic, regardless of which 'side' one chooses.

~~~
maratd
> HN is no place to discuss emotionally charged questions of nationality and
> history. Your reply illustrates the reason why.

Uhhmmm no, the original post to which I was replying illustrates why. You did
read it, right?

> The idea that the conflict is one side of monsters and one side of tragic
> heroes is comedic, regardless of which 'side' one chooses.

Thanks for the moral relativism drivel. When you find the time to "go into
detail about historical grievances of either party in the conflict" instead of
wasting time writing gibberish, feel free to reply.

Nobody else is reading this thread anymore. It'll just be the two of us.

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gryzzly
Well, this article isn't accurate at all, you can see Israel on Google Maps in
a great resolution, but you don't have API. Must be outdated or something.

~~~
mdasen
I think there's a clear difference in resolution. Here's Rothschild Street in
Tel Aviv:
[http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&...](http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=tel+aviv&aq=&sll=31.740577,35.110073&sspn=0.085257,0.15192&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Tel+Aviv,+Israel&ll=32.062437,34.770098&spn=0.002655,0.004748&t=h&z=18).
Everything is incredibly blurry. Compare that to Beacon Hill in Boston:
[http://maps.google.com/maps?q=beacon+hill+boston&ie=UTF8...](http://maps.google.com/maps?q=beacon+hill+boston&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Beacon+Hill,+Boston,+Suffolk,+Massachusetts&gl=us&ll=42.358142,-71.064578&spn=0.001165,0.002374&t=h&z=19).

That's at the same zoom level and the Boston image is clear. Sure, you can
make things out in the Tel Aviv map, but it's very blurry. The Boston map has
a crispness to it. Plus, the Boston map can be zoomed in another level. The
Tel Aviv map tells you "we are sorry, but we don't have imagery at this zoom
level for this region."

~~~
mikle
This is outrageous! Rothschild st was built when fuzzy edges was the IN thing
in architecture. Of course they look outdated now!

In all seriousness though, on the Android I can't get a detailed view of
Israel from any app the charts my movement (like biking or running tracking
apps). It annoys me greatly. Not to mention our really secret places are not
military bases.

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creativeone
Who cares about google maps? I use waze, a free gps that has all Israeli roads
and hotelier listed, plus, if there is a new road, users can create it into
the map. I also have an iPhone app that tells me about different shops and
entertainment and gas stations etc that are around.

I use google maps (map view, not satellite) multiple times a week. I use the
walking directions, and find the directions and the estimated time to be
highly accurate.

It would be a nice perk for satellite imagery, but that doesn't really hurt my
usage of google maps in israel. It would be really nice too for google street
view, but I'm not crying.

Why don't we let israel manage it's satellite imagery how it wants. For a
country constantly at war over since the writing of its declaration of
independence, it seems only prudent to hinder the spread of even mediocre
quality intelligence gathering tools.

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antihero
I'm in the UK and loading up Google Earth I get pretty good resolution images
of Gaza and Israel...

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Tsagadai
For a good comparison look at the map quality of South Korea near the border
and North Korea over the border. The maps of North Korea are higher resolution
and completely uncensored. Occasionally, when I am wandering along in South
Korea with my GPS on I find something censored on Google maps. Why are the
images of the Palestinian territories not available in in higher resolutions?
It doesn't seem like a problem to allow clearer images of other non-US
friendly nations.

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eurohacker
there have been made calculations by economists how much this so-called ally
Israel has cost to Americans ,

its trillions

<http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.html>

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dmerfield
This raises a really interesting privacy question, the answer to which I do
not know.

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nivertech
I have no idea why some people complain. Suppose Google Maps had "erase"
feature. The same people who would "erase" Israel from the map, would
complain, that they need higher resolution images ;)

