
The Downtown Project Suicides - smacktoward
http://recode.net/2014/10/01/the-downtown-project-suicides-can-the-pursuit-of-happiness-kill-you/
======
downandout
Successful Silicon Valley entrepreneurs and VC's talk about failure like it's
a good thing. It teaches us lessons etc. That's an easy outlook to have from
within the walls of multi-million dollar homes and offices. The effect of
failure, to them, is that their ridiculous net worth will be slightly less
ridiculous. It has exactly zero impact on their daily lives.

The reality is that most entrepreneurs - those that do not have the pedigree
to be handed huge checks from VC's - have everything on the line. To most,
failure means that they and their families will suffer severely. People often
start businesses because they have needs or responsibilities that are above
their earning power at a regular job. When you combine those pressures with
the high failure rate of startups, you get a high suicide rate. It's sad, but
it's not a problem that is unique to the Downtown Project.

~~~
trhway
>People often start businesses because they have needs or responsibilities
that are above their earning power at a regular job.

while it may make sense for established types of businesses - open a
restaurant, your own consulting, etc... it doesn't make sense for innovation
domain which is more close to gambling (1/36 roulette, 1/10 hi-tech startups).
MS, Apple, Google, FB - were started by people in the "no-pressure" situation.

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DarenAptk
I can't help but conclude that someone who is so obsessed with creating
"Happiness" is actually not that happy. Otherwise why would he be chasing it
with such desperation? One profile of Tony Hsieh said that he has literally
read hundreds of books about how to create happiness, and of course he wrote
one too.

A person who is happy is not reading hundreds of books about happiness. And
that person will also not become happy through doing that. Happiness is not
something you can create externally. (Yes, if you're starving and homeless
then having some money and material possessions would definitely make you
happy. But we are talking about multimillionaires and billionaires here who
are not in that situation.)

I think the entire downtown project has much less to do with creating some
sort of startup utopia and more with something that Tony himself is seeking.
But he won't find it outside of himself.

~~~
technotony
“Don’t aim at success - the more you aim at it and make it a target, the more
you are going to miss it. For success, like happiness, cannot be pursued; it
must ensue...as the unintended side-effect of one’s personal dedication to a
course greater than oneself.” -Viktor Frankl

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budu3
I have a strong suspicion that our modern society's obsession with pursuing
happiness as an end goal is not healthy. Maybe what we need is an underlying
sense of contentment.

~~~
nlh
I (respectfully) disagree -- I think modern society's obsession with pursuing
_material wealth & riches_ is not healthy, but I think the pursuit of
happiness is a worthy goal. The two, of course, are often confused, but
happiness can be found in many socioeconomic forms, and, frankly, I think it
should be the goal. If you're happy - regardless of the size of your home or
your bank account - what else do you really need?

~~~
nwienert
I think it's more that you can't have happiness as a goal... as soon as you
set a goal to "get" to happiness, you have missed the point. Life isn't about
getting to anywhere, it's about enjoying the moment, happiness is only ever
here. To make it a goal misses that point entirely!

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RangerScience
It occurs to me that happiness could be like profits: It is an indication of
success; a way to measure it (think a/b testing), but is not itself success.

To toot the counter culture horn, it's the pursuit of profit as the end-goal
that makes the world a rotten place... ironically, does the pursuit of
happiness as an end-goal have similar issues?

To rephrase: Like profits, happiness is a way to tell whether or not what
you're doing is working, but it's not what you're doing.

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ChrisNorstrom
● Same as the Facebook Depression effect: Seeing your "friends" have awesome
lives makes you feel more miserable about your own.

● Being surrounded by happiness /or/ the expectation of happiness makes people
feel behind, like losers, and makes them depressed.

● Depression is highest in 1st world countries.

Now, think about Las Vegas, it's a "celebratory / party" town. Lights,
glamour, parties, fun times, gambling, excess, big business, big hotels. Its
atmosphere only exaggerates the idea that "everyone is doing fine but you,
you're a loser". Building a startup community there is probably not a good
idea.

------
kin
This was a pretty sad read. I JUST visited Container Park in Downtown Vegas
this past weekend and it seemed to have a pretty good crowd with both locals
and tourists.

I do believe though that if it weren't for my knowledge of the project I
wouldn't even know about the area. In fact, many locals I've met still don't
know about Container Park. So, they do have some marketing to work on I guess.

~~~
qthrul
Yep. When people ask me "where to visit" style questions, the Container Park
is my first recommendation.

[http://downtowncontainerpark.com/events/](http://downtowncontainerpark.com/events/)

Also... a MASSIVE robotic fire breathing praying mantis.

What's not to love?

My next recommendation is Red Rock National Conservation Area.

The strip is just a the strip. YMMV.

------
qthrul
This article does not link to the response post from the DTLV which has a FAQ
section

[http://dtlv.com/2014/09/30/downtown-project-layoffs-tony-
hsi...](http://dtlv.com/2014/09/30/downtown-project-layoffs-tony-hsiehs-
statement/)

------
trhway
these recent stories about the Downtown Project sound like stories about any
other cult.

~~~
PakG1
I read Tony Hsieh's book with hopes for an inspirational read. I came away
from the book thinking that it totally sounded cult-like. Making one of the
fundamental tenets of Zappos to be working with people with whom you'd like to
drink after work sounded crazy, especially when the decision became not just
drink together after work, but also move to an entirely different city where
you don't know anyone else and don't plan to meet anyone else except those who
are already part of "the group".

What I originally thought. [http://www.pakg1.net/2011/05/problem-with-team-
building-init...](http://www.pakg1.net/2011/05/problem-with-team-building-
initiatives.html)

When people think like this, I get really worried. Like companies that tout
the "Sunday test". Would you come into the office just to hang out with that
guy on a Sunday, for no other reason, just want to hang out? At work, masks
come on for various personal reasons. Outside of work, masks come off for
various personal reasons. Rare is the person who can be the same person in
work and out of work. And for the same reason, rare is the person who can
suffice with a support network _only_ at work.

------
smacktoward
Mods: what happened to the word "suicides" in the title of this story?

It's not omitted to fit the 80 character limit; the title with the word
included is still underneath that.

It's not omitted because the article isn't about suicides; there's three of
them discussed.

I submitted the link, and I could have sworn I just copied and pasted the full
title it's running under at Re/code, which is "The Downtown Project Suicides:
Can the Pursuit of Happiness Kill You?"

If I'm misremembering and the word wasn't in the submission, I apologize in
advance. But if it _was_ there, and someone took it out, that seems like it
does a real disservice to the article by downplaying the gravity of what it's
actually about. (I'd edit it myself to put it in, but it looks like my window
for editing the submission has closed.)

~~~
dang
We took it out because it's obviously baity. "Kill you" is enough bait for one
title.

Edit: My mistake; we'll put it back.

Edit 2: Now that this thread has subsided, there was another reason why I
edited the title that way.

Ever since I read Cialdini's "Influence" I've been sensitive to the dismaying
evidence that publishing suicides encourages some people to kill themselves. I
felt uneasy having a title blaring the word "Suicides" about a tragic story—in
the startup world, especially—on HN's front page. No doubt the Werther Effect
is small, but this is a law-of-large-numbers situation, so I'd rather over-
react than under-react.

If anyone happens to be having suicidal thoughts around here: please tell
someone. If you don't have anyone to tell, tell me. My email is in my profile.

~~~
crazygringo
The whole article is about suicides. It's in the title, it's in the first
paragraph and continues throughout. The article isn't about anything _except_
for suicides.

And the word "suicide" is much clearer than "kill you" \-- which is so vague
it sounds like it could be recreational drug overdose, for instance.

Sorry, but there isn't the slightest thing "baity" about it.

