
Carnegie Mellon Offers New Master's Degree in Product Management - melqdusy
https://www.cs.cmu.edu/news/carnegie-mellon-offers-new-masters-degree-product-management
======
jasonhong
Hi All,

I'm the academic head of this new program on the School of Computer Science
side of things. Happy to answer any questions you might have about this
program (though it will have to be in the morning since it's about 1am on the
east coast and well past my bedtime) And no, I didn't plant this link. :)

One of the key strengths of our Master's of Product Management program is that
it combines elements of computer science, user experience design, and business
skills (including strategy and management). We also have a significant
component devoted to communication and leadership skills, based on interactive
workshops and personal mentoring.

On a personal note, this notion of marrying business skills with UX design and
computer science has been a long-term goal of mine. I'm a techie at heart (I
got my PhD from Berkeley CS), but I feel that having strong skills in user
experience or CS only helps so much if you don't have decision-making
authority. And to get to those decision-making positions, you need to be able
to manage technical teams well, understand how a product fits within the
existing market, and know about best practices in prototyping and evaluating
user interfaces so that your product has a compelling user experience.

~~~
IOT_Apprentice
$65k is way too expensive to charge for this. Just how greedy is CMU to charge
this much? Furthermore Product m Managers are not CEOs, the departments which
align to deliver the product don't report to them, nor do they control what
resources are allocated or have budgetary control.

PM's have to negotiate and gain consensus on what is to be built and contend
with resources available. In software you can be at the mercy of the
development manager and what they want to build, can sometimes be at odds with
what you want built. Other times you may have a dev lead who just decides that
like as they are building it, they will code what they damn well please, and
ignore your architecture team (if you are fortunate to have one).

Those are just some of the things a Product Manager learns to deal with to get
their product built and shipped.

~~~
jasonhong
Good points, it turns out that $65k is lower than many of our other master's
programs. We also ran through the numbers and that tuition x #students doesn't
cover much more than our basic costs. We are a non-profit after all, and one
that has a very strong track record in its educational program.

What you're telling us is actually very well aligned with what we've heard
from our alums and from some companies. Yes, product managers are not CEOs and
can't always just tell people what to do. Product managers work with their
direct team (typically some engineers, QA, 1-2 UX designers, possibly a data
scientist), but also need to know how to interface with marketing, sales, and
others. Part of our curriculum looks at how to work with and positively
influence others to achieve desired goals. But you're right, that's not easy,
though there are some strategies and tactics that work better than others.

~~~
opportune
Can't say this is a compelling argument. Being lower cost than other programs
just tells me those programs are overpriced too. Also the whole nonprofit
argument is baseless; did you know the NFL was structured as a nonprofit until
2015? Universities and nonprofits in general are well known to waste funds,
especially on administrative positions and vanity projects.

Not to call this a vanity project, and obviously I am not privy to all of the
financial information at CMU so I may be wrong and this program may just be
quite expensive. The main problem I see with something like this is that

1: As with most Master's programs, it's probably just a cash grab by the
university. Although since this is CMU I assume the placement will be very
good, I'm also of the opinion that programs like these _can_ , but not
necessarily will, taint the overall reputation of the university by setting
lower standards.

2: It's fine for a few universities to offer degrees in Product Management.
But the thing is, the market (at least within tech) for this role isn't THAT
large, especially when you consider that a lot of product managers start out
as developers to begin with. If enough universities start also offering these
programs, I assume the placement and utility of the program will suffer
greatly. We don't need a glut of PMs the same way we had a glut of lawyers
following the recession.

~~~
jasonhong
Well, if you honestly believe that Carnegie Mellon University is the same as
the NFL as a non-profit, especially given our long track record of education
and research, there really isn't anything I can say to convince you. So let's
just end this here.

~~~
wtvanhest
His/her point is that being a non-profit is often just a legal structure with
tax protection. It is not a valid reason to charge a high price for something.
Not addressing his/her point does not make it any less valid.

Importantly, faculty and admin staff at both the NFL and CMU are both highly
paid.

------
dbg31415
As a product management discipline lead, I interview product management
candidates.

For some stupid reason someone in HR still puts "MBA preferred" on the
posting... but I have yet to meet anyone without hands-on experience that I
want to hire. I don't care if you have an MBA, I don't care if you have a
college degree... what I want to know is can you do the work?

If I ask about the SLDC, what I want to hear is that they know enough to keep
everything balanced -- that they aren't going to get all flustered and just
try and shoehorn devs and QA and content and UX designers into something you
read out of a textbook but have never really implemented.

A PM should be a shit shield, they should be comfortable saying, "No," to
stupid suggestions from people up the food chain -- this leads to success of
people down the food chain. An MBA doesn't prepare them for that. They will
have to be able to put themselves in other peoples' shoes... lead by example.
(My ideal candidate has a few years Dev or QA experience... I can go with UX
even... but they have to have done some real delivery work prior to being a PM
in order to not suck at it -- my opinion.)

Anyway, long way of saying, "Undergrads, save your money. Go learn how to
code, get a job doing that, then make the transition a few years in once you
actually know how things work. At that point, if you want to go to school --
cool, you may find it useful to augment what you already learned on the job."

~~~
tomashertus
Heh. Can I work for you?:)

I switched in the end of last year from Team Lead Engineer to PM position and
have had blast since then. The job is very challenging and I'm keep learning
new and new things about our customers and users. Previously working with PMs
who are not from engineering background was often very frustrating, because
google can find any answer right?

~~~
dbg31415
That's about the best compliment I can think of, thanks!

Worse than just trying to Google for the answers are the Product Managers who
come over from Marketing and tend to just make up answers. Ha! You have to go
over with them the whole notion of compromise, and how just because it's on a
Gantt Chart, doesn't mean we want to commit to all the dates for all the
features 6 months out... Perpetual compromise, stuff is going to come up, we
adapt and reprioritize and if we're lucky (and a good bit of it is luck) then
the wheels don't come off the car while we're driving.

------
bluetwo
I can't speak to the cost but it sounds like they are trying to fill a
validated market need. I disagree that just working for a startup for a year
will give you the same experience.

I predict a near 100% placement rate.

~~~
Judgmentality
> I disagree that just working for a startup for a year will give you the same
> experience.

Why? Actually working on delivering a product seems like far better experience
than any educational program, internship or not. Since most people go to
school with the end goal of getting a job, it seems far better to skip school
if you have the option. What are they going to teach you that you can't learn
on the job?

I'd much rather a manager have real experience in the role of the people he's
managing than come straight out of school with a pretense of expertise.

~~~
devin
My experience is that it is a nightmare to hire product managers who will
"figure it out as they go". There are so many skills that a talented product
manager needs to be successful. Leadership, communication, technical
expertise, and so on are all mentioned in the announcement.

The cost of engineering makes product missteps extremely expensive over time
in both the large and the small.

~~~
Judgmentality
So hire a product manager with previous experience in another position,
ideally the kind he'd be managing. Sure, if the program _can_ impart all of
those skills onto its graduates then it sounds great. But having gone through
school to the point of quitting my PhD, working at various companies of
various sizes and starting my own company, I put very little weight in degrees
- especially anything with an emphasis on business.

Yes, I am biased. But I would be happy to be convinced otherwise if someone
can provide the data.

------
mendeza
Graduate student at Cornell Tech, amazing program to learn graduate level
machine learning and cs topics with a deep dive into product/startup
development. I am in the 2 year program, and the program is top notch for only
being 5 years old. Ping me at aem336@cornell.edu if you have any interests or
questions :)

~~~
bdickason
A good friend is one of the organizers of the Cornell Tech program and he
pulled together a ton of great PM's and Eng's from NYC to get feedback and
idea when designing the program. Glad to hear that the program is going well
:D

~~~
mendeza
Thats awesome! I hope the leadership for the product development curriculum
stays as that makes Cornell Tech a really unique experience. They do an
amazing job getting companies from all over NYC to advise on our product
projects.

Also a side note, I would love to hear about your experience as a PM in the VR
industry, as I am both passionate about developing Augmented Reality products
and looking for opportunities to break into the VR industry!

------
allenleein
To people who consider to join this program:

Just dive into a startup then learn.

3mons in a startup > 1y in Master's Degree in Product Management

Save your money please.

~~~
shubhamjain
You're not considering an important factor: connections and opportunities. If
doing this course makes you multiple steps closer to getting hired at Big Cos,
then I think the tuition fee is worth it. Same applies for almost every degree
in the world. Courses are easy to replicate; environment is not.

~~~
allenleein
Like you said: Courses are easy to replicate; environment is not.

Do you think the connections and opportunities in CMU program are better than
the connections and opportunities in a YC startup? If you don't, then I
suggest you can just jump in a YC startup then learn something REAL.

~~~
sotojuan
Most people can't just "jump in a YC startup".

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elvirs
pay 65k for just this, spend another 65k throughout that period on other
living/study expenses, then work at 35k for 5 years because they need somebody
with experience:)

------
nedwin
Funny to see the use the now commonly derided by well regarded PM's* line of
"A product manager is first and foremost the CEO of the product"

*Josh Elman + David Cancel for starters.

~~~
rl3
Maybe such quotes have an appeal with aspiring PMs who think it's a good idea
to pay a small fortune to the Shake'N Bake school of product management.

------
spraveenitpro
Can you provide the program online though Coursera for free and charge like
$50 for the certificate? that will be more practical and cheaper.

~~~
silentguy
Is there any good MOOC for product management? I had been looking for it last
year but could not find it.

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hodder
What a scam. 65k? Honestly, this will not be recognized in the market as the
same as a "real degree", so why should people pay that kind of price?

------
dhawalhs
" _Tuition for the Master of Science in Product Management program is charged
at a flat rate of $65,000 for the 12-month program. This cost covers tuition
only. It does not include university fees, summer electives or other
miscellaneous expenses._ "

Ouch.

~~~
kayoone
As a resident of a country where education of all levels is basically free,
this always sounds so unreal to me. I would never even think about it, how
would you make that kind of money back in a reasonable amount of time to be
worth it ?

~~~
MacsHeadroom
PMs at established tech companies can make $200k+ in salary and usually have
extra massive stock options to boot. An Amazon PM averages something like
$600k/year if they stick around for 5 years.

~~~
tedsanders
Factcheck: Senior Product Managers at Amazon HQ with 4-6 years of experience
self report an average salary of $123K and average total comp of $162K.

Even if a single Amazon PM has made $600K in one year, it does a disservice to
readers to imply that that's commonplace.

[https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Amazon-Senior-Product-
Manag...](https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Amazon-Senior-Product-Manager-
Seattle-Salaries-
EJI_IE6036.0,6_KO7,29_IL.30,37_IM781.htm?filter.experienceLevel=FOUR_TO_SIX)

~~~
dsacco
Ask yourself: even if you disagree with the parent's numbers, do _these
numbers_ from Glassdoor make sense to you?

A friend of mine has a younger sister who was offered $120k _base salary_ out
of college to work at Google in NYC, and another 30k in RSUs. She's told me
this compares favorably with what friends of hers were offered at similar
companies on the east and west coasts.

I'm going to avoid a discussion about merit, but suffice it to say that I
believe seniors PMs working at Amazon for a few years are far closer to $600k
than $100k.

~~~
ryandrake
Numbers at Glassdoor are at least based on some kind of aggregate data. You
can argue about their methodology, but I would trust it over "that guy on HN
who swears his brother's nephew's roommate knows one guy who makes $600K at
Google."

~~~
dsacco
Sure, that's fair. I was specifically attacking Glassdoor and how low their
numbers are.

------
Heraclite
I'm a mobile senior software engineer at a startup.

How can I jump into product management? I founded a startup previously so I
can say I have a strong product vision, and I can just feel intuitively that
it's the position i'd be good at.

I'm reluctant to put 65k to make the move though. Anyone else made the move
Senior software dev -> PM, if yes, how did you go about it?

~~~
stereobit
Does your startup have PMs and is looking for more? If so I would just ask if
there is an option to switch. This is how I did it years ago. Shadowed one of
the PMs for a bit and then slowly took over more responsibility.

~~~
ryandrake
That's exactly what I did. Watch PMs in action at your current company, take
notes, get interested, and wait for a position to open up internally.

------
diiaann
Getting that first bit of experience seems hard for a product manager. Most
places will only hire people with experience as a product manager, and for
those who will hire someone without prior experience, they seem to prefer
MBAs. This at least seems like a path to product management that isn't a MBA.

~~~
dbg31415
A lot of people who aren't technical see the Product Manager role as something
they can do in tech. This leads to a lot of poorly qualified people applying
for positions, and HR responding by trying to have them self-screen out, "Must
have 3-5 years..." (The number of Product Managers with some sort of fluff
History / Political Science / Sociology degree is pretty high... some get in,
but you have to sift through a lot of Philosophy degrees to find a good one.)

Instead of going right for the Product Manger role, people should aim for some
sort of delivery internship. And from there a Business Analyst role, Software
Engineering role, UX Designer role, Quality Assurance Engineering role...
anything hands-on. This sets them up to be good at Product Management --
better than the kids who come straight out of school anyway.

There's a good amount of "inflation of self-worth" (for lack of a better word)
around people coming out of college right now. It's true that college costs a
lot, but virtually everyone has a degree. AND we all know that there's massive
grade inflation going on -- so it's hard to take a college degree seriously.
Also hard not to have one... not an ideal situation, to be sure. (There's a
lot of role inflation too... people now are "senior" with a year or two
experience? Come on.)

Anyway, requirements are inflated to screen people with 0 experience out. If
you have done well for a few years at a staff role, nobody is going to care
that you don't specifically have N years as a product manager. But it's a HUGE
risk taking someone out of college and giving them a leadership position.
Better for them, and the company that hires them, if they spend a little time
in the trenches.

------
CodeSheikh
This sounds more promising than getting a "decorated" MBA degree from an
overrated "top league" school. It makes sense to hire a person whose
managerial skills are forged in technical training.

------
stereobit
Spend the $65k on starting your own thing for a year. You learn similar things
and if you're lucky you end up with a successful business or at least a
positive ROI.

------
dandare
Sorry for not doing any googling before askig; is there an online Product
Management course you could recommend?

------
mifeng
CMU was also the first school to offer a masters in Financial Engineering in
the mid-2000s.

~~~
fixxer
I thought Cornell was? It was part of the M.Eng in ORIE.

------
pinaceae
Good luck.

Right now Harvard has the best course in the US. Stanford and Berkeley are a
joke.

The best path into PM is still doing something hands-on in that area. If it is
enterprise, then start in consulting or pre-sales. Consumer is pure chance.

------
jorblumesea
Or get a MBA for 1/5 the price from literally anywhere and be able to do
whatever you want with it, including being a PM/Director but also just about
anything else.

~~~
aliston
Where can you get a good MBA for 10k?

~~~
jorblumesea
Total price for this new masters would be above the listing price, after
housing and other things are factored in. Good MBA can be had for 25k.

~~~
WillPostForFood
Not at a top 20 program in the US.

[http://poetsandquants.com/2011/01/08/how-much-does-a-top-
mba...](http://poetsandquants.com/2011/01/08/how-much-does-a-top-mba-degree-
cost/)

~~~
reek
You are right- but the average MBA cost is 26k.

~~~
WillPostForFood
Do you mean average MBA cost, or tuition per year. 26k is very low for two
year tuition, even at a state school, and if you are out of state it is going
to be a lot higher.

This site says average two year tuition is 60k.

[https://www.thoughtco.com/cost-of-earning-an-mba-
degree-4662...](https://www.thoughtco.com/cost-of-earning-an-mba-
degree-466266)

