
The Mopeds Are Coming - panarky
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/08/the-mopeds-are-coming/567125/?single_page=true
======
notatoad
I think this is the "missing link" in the new transportation ecosystem. Right
now, alternative transport exists in a sort of grey zone where if you ride on
roads drivers are angry about how you're taking their space, and if you ride
on sidewalks people are angry about how you're taking their space.

mopeds look enough like a motorbike and are already accepted enough that a
high enough concentration of them could go a long way towards taking back the
road as a true multi-use space, rather than a car exclusive space that other
users sometimes get to encroach onto. mopeds and bicycles and jump scooters
can all coexist in the same space happily. mopeds and cars can coexist
happily.

~~~
martythemaniak
As a visitor, I would say one under-appreciated aspect of Dutch bikes lanes is
that they're not really bike lanes. Practically, 95% or more of the vehicles
on there are bicycles, yeah, but the other 5% are all sorts of wonderfully
wacky vehicles, some motorized (mostly electric) some not.

It seems to work like this: Are you in big, heavy and fast vehicle? Go in Road
Type 1 (cars, trucks, motorcycles)

Are you vehicle-less, or is your vehicle very slow or non-motorized? Go in
Road Type 2 (pedestrians, strollers, wheelchairs, etc)

Are something else? Go in Road type 3 (bicycles, mopeds, electric bikes,
electric skateboards, non-car people movers etc etc).

In North America, rather than building Road Type 3, we fight viciously over
how to sort a galaxy of vehicles into Road Types 1 and 2. Even when a 3rd road
type is built, they are frequently designated for some exclusive type of
vehicle - ie, places where non-pedelec e-bikes or electric skateboards are not
allowed in bike lanes.

~~~
jakobegger
Having a moped race past you with 50km/h on a bike lane is a pretty terrifying
experience and I'd much prefer that they use roads.

Bike lanes are too narrow for motorised vehicles, and some ebikes are pushing
the limits as well (eg. Urban Arrow bikes don't make me feel very safe on
narrow bike lanes either)

~~~
jessaustin
That's true but some motorized gadgets are pretty slow. One time, due to a
stoplight, I crossed an intersection at the same time as a guy on some sort of
skateboard with an engine. My acceleration on my bicycle was much better than
his, and I left him far behind. Several blocks later (this was a road with few
stoplights), I heard his noisy approach from behind and enjoyed his triumphant
smile at having finally overtaken me. Apparently his motor had a bit more
power once it got totally revved up... The point is, he was a menace to anyone
on the (thankfully deserted) sidewalk, and would have been something of hazard
in the street.

~~~
teachrdan
I would hazard that the limiting factor for the skateboarder wasn't the motor
but the fact that if he accelerated as quickly as the motor would allow he'd
fly off of it. Electric motors are notoriously torque-y. (which many users
enjoy)

~~~
jessaustin
This was about 12 years ago, so it was actually a two-stroke motor. More power
at full RPMs meant less torque at lower RPMs... Nevertheless policy probably
shouldn't consider something so rare so this is a bit OT.

------
monkeywork
These ebikes that are designed to look like motorcycles are a bane and
shouldn't be allowed to be driven without a license and insurance.

In the Toronto area we often see these bombing around, riders acting like they
are motorcycles but having no training or understanding of safe practices, not
wearing proper safety equipment, and several of the privately owned ones have
been modified to increase their speed significantly.

I have no issue with the tech, I think it could be a great green solution, but
the policies and regulations around it need to get caught up before people are
seriously injured.

~~~
coldtea
> _not wearing proper safety equipment,_

Well, that's their problem. Also take a look at how 3 billion people ride
their motorcycles and mopeds (often 3-5 at a time) in e.g. China, India,
Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, etc. and the complains against ebikes are
absolutely nullified...

~~~
toomanybeersies
Riding a motorbike in Vietnam is a completely different experience to riding a
motorbike in a western country.

People are actually aware of motorbikes, since it's the primary method of
transport. Also, traffic moves a lot slower, you're usually riding at only
20-30 km/h in town in Vietnam. I felt much safer riding a motorbike in Vietnam
than in New Zealand.

Upon saying that, the road injury and fatality statistics for the countries
you mentioned are shocking. Vietnam is 2.5x higher than the USA for road
fatalities per 100,000 per year, and the USA itself is shockingly high for a
developed country, they're double Australia's rate.

~~~
r00fus
I wonder if per-capita is a misleading measure here. Clearly density (i.e.
people or vehicles per sq. mi ) is more predictive of your accident rates.

~~~
baq
The standard measure is per million miles or kilometers driven.

------
kcorbitt
I'm extremely excited by this type of electric scooter. If you're interested
in the options currently on the market in the USA, Electrek did a recent
roundup here: [https://electrek.co/2018/06/07/electric-mopeds-use-is-
boomin...](https://electrek.co/2018/06/07/electric-mopeds-use-is-booming-
around-the-world-here-are-the-options-available-in-the-usa/)

You can get an imported Cirkit electric moped with a top speed of 35mph and 40
mile range for $1,200. It can't totally replace a car for most Americans, but
it _can_ probably replace 80% of car travel for most commuters. You can go
right around traffic, maintenance and electricity costs are a penny or two a
mile and these things are _fun_ to drive!

~~~
josefresco
_You can go right around traffic_

Don't do that.

~~~
virtualritz
Most European cities where scooters (mopeds) make up a seizable portion of
traffic (e.g. Paris) would come to a standstill if you "didn't do that".

The issue is more that drivers in the US aren't used to sharing the road with
these vehicles.

In Paris, drivers naturally drive far left and far right on roads that have
two lanes per direction to leave a corridor for the scooters in the middle.

Then 'going around traffic' is less of an issue for everyone involved.

------
js2
I'm in NC. It's rained almost every day the last three weeks straight and when
it's not raining, it's hot and humid.

Are these things catching on in places with unpleasant summer/winter weather?

edit: I had only skimmed the article when I made the comment above. Now having
read it, and as somone who used to live in Atlanta OTP and commuted to work
across from Ga Tech, I share the author's skepticism these will catch on
there. I similarly can't see them working in Raleigh where I live now except
maybe among college students. They'd be great for getting around a college
town, on and near campus.

~~~
dogma1138
All of Asia where it rains for much more than 3 weeks straight during the
monsoon seasons.

That said it’s not clear if it will catch up in any place where these are seen
as perks of convenience rather than essential transportation.

~~~
ghaff
What you see in Asian cities are really light motorcycles though, right? As
in, they can keep up with auto traffic. In places like KL the "scooters" (or
whatever the right term is) are really something. Can't imagine driving there.

~~~
freeone3000
City auto traffic in the US is weirdly fast - it's 30 _mph_ instead of 30
kmph. These devices have no trouble at 18mph but America decided it has to be
faster because it built things so far away.

~~~
hocuspocus
I don't know about the particular mopeds in the article, but for instance the
Gogoro's that are used by Coup in Europe can go up to 90-95 km/h and fall into
the 125cc category unless they are artificially restricted to 45 km/h (to
allow for more people to be able to use their service).

------
madrox
> Then I realize how disturbing it is that these attempts at clarity would
> seem quaint and surprising, and how any sniff of earnestness from a tech
> company can feel like a sign of deceit.

This is the line that stuck out to me in the whole article. Is this really
where we are? Has tech sunk that low?

------
e40
Hey, maybe the users can ride them on the sidewalk, too! I've been having fun
dodging the bikes and scooters (from no less than 3 companies!)!!

/s

Seriously, my 2 mile walk to work has gone from a total joy to me looking over
my shoulder to make sure I can _change lanes_ without getting run over by a
scooter/bike doing serious speed. And by _change lanes_ I mean step around
that dog turd.

~~~
dec0dedab0de
Isnt it illegal in most places to ride vehicles on the sidewalk? Does it cause
a lot of fights? I could imagine someone "accidentally" stretching at the
right time to clothesline someone riding down the sidewalk. It's making me
angry just thinking about it.

~~~
xyzzyz
> I could imagine someone "accidentally" stretching at the right time to
> clothesline someone riding down the sidewalk.

What you're describing here is aggravated assault, which is a serious crime.

~~~
privacypoller
chill - I don't think the GP actually suggesting we form vigilante squads to
hunt down sidewalk-riding vesparados (see what I did there?)

------
creaghpatr
Are these intuitive to ride? I can ride a bike and a scooter but I’m not sure
I want the first time I ride one of these to be in the Midtown Atlanta Traffic
Thunderdome.

I sold my car but if I still had one I don’t think I’d be very uh, charitable
to someone topping out at 25mph on Ponce.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Ponce? I assumed it was a brand and searched for "ponce bike" and "ponce
electric scooter" but didn't get anything other than general bikes and
scooters.

~~~
creaghpatr
Ponce de Leon is a big street in Atlanta that's ground zero for testing the
scooter/moped market.

Atlanta has historically been a 'need a car' city but these forms of transport
have the potential to change that.

------
officialchicken
After spending a lot of time in various cities in Europe... anything that
fixes the sound pollution created by 2-stroke engines in scooters and mopeds
is a massive improvement.

------
runaway
These aren't mopeds to me. They don't have pedals.

~~~
Camillo
I think these should be called scooters. Unfortunately, English also uses that
word for kick scooters, and now the two are hopelessly confused.

~~~
ghaff
The terminology is a complete muddle in English. Even reading through that
article I had to go back and forth a bit to understand what was being
discussed in a given paragraph.

If you just say scooter these days, there are about four different things you
could be referring to.

~~~
sandworm101
The term is "motor scooter". Just like a motorcycle is a bicycle with an
engine, these are scooters with motors.

A moped does have to have pedals and there are some companies making them. But
the entire thing is an anachronistic shell game. These are all motorcycles,
just of lesser power/ability. They only exist because of silly legal
classifications that mean little on a modern street. Everyone on the street
riding something with two wheels and a motor should get a motorcycle license,
a helmet, and be subject to proper emission controls.

~~~
ghaff
Except this is actually electric. (Which in fact does mean it has a motor
although, to add to the confusion, motor is often used to mean engine :-) ) As
a result, by analogy with motorcycle, I would assume a motor scooter had a
gasoline engine.

~~~
singularity2001
how about "electro scooter"?

------
worik
A "moped" has pedals. These are not mopeds...

~~~
s0rce
Yes, technically they are scooters, it seems the terms are frequently used
incorrectly. Although, since the pedals really don't contribute much useful
power on a moped it doesn't really matter.

------
sonaltr
If Mopeds or bicyclists or the like want to be on the road - that's fine. Get
a Bike license and Insurance.

A few weeks ago, a bicyclist clipped my bumper at a red light. I made sure it
was safe, pulled over, put on my hazards, and got out. In that time, he had
the audacity to claim that

1\. I was at fault (I was not - I've got front & rear dashcam footage provided
to the police & insurance as replacing the bumper is easily $2k for me).

2\. When I told him about the dashcam, he then claimed we could split it 50/50
(while also claiming it's not more than $300 worth of damage if I took it to a
shop that he said he'd "hook me up with" \- which it's not. It's a brand new
car and I'll take it to a dealership thank you very much.)

3\. Claimed he was broke and could not afford to pay me $2k and since I worked
downtown, I could "afford to eat the cost and not feel the difference" \- like
that mattered.

4\. When I did call the cops, he decided to just take his bike and ride off.

------
jachee
I'm (honestly just a little) surprised there's no mention of Scoobi, who just
launched in Pittsburgh. [0] Other than an opening weekend issue involving a
few friends "terrorizing" them [1] they seem to be successful. I've seen
several folks riding on them, many parked (legally, thanks to an agreement
with the city), and none the worse for wear.

Personally, I'm going to try one, on a weekend, before I brave the jagoffs of
rush hour.

0\. [https://triblive.com/local/allegheny/13898057-74/scoobi-
laun...](https://triblive.com/local/allegheny/13898057-74/scoobi-launches-
scooter-service-in-pittsburgh)

1\. [https://theincline.com/2018/08/03/how-a-group-of-friends-
ter...](https://theincline.com/2018/08/03/how-a-group-of-friends-terrorized-
scoobi-pittsburghs-new-scooter-ride-share-service/)

------
pessimizer
This would be great if it weren't another ploy to hack the legal system
through a moped-sized. Rent the same 125cc scooters that they already rent in
Italy (a displacement size that can easily keep up with city traffic), require
that users be licensed (and help them get licensed), and insure them.

Instead, they're just going to look at the laws of each state and figure out
the maximum speed and displacement they can offer to people without them
having to be licensed or to have ever been on a scooter before, and whether if
they duck tape some pedals to it they can get away with more. And what
city/state official(s) they have to bribe to get those laws changed or to keep
them unchanged after people end up severely brain injured and dead.

------
fredley
I don't care how it happens, but the day petrol mopeds are completely phased
out will be a very happy one for me. Being woken up by a loud scooter
deliverying pizza late at night is a continual annoyance. Electric mopeds
presumably make little to no sound.

~~~
Analemma_
You may not get your wish. My personal most-hated source of urban noise is
unmuffled motorcycles that can be heard for miles, but it turns out these
exist on purpose: ICE bikes with stock mufflers have a reasonable noise level,
but bikers take them off they think it makes them safer ("loud pipes save
lives"). It might turn out that we have the technology to make personal
vehicles whisper quiet, but then people refuse to use it.

~~~
fredley
When the majority of vehicles are electric, I can see the case being made for
all vehicles to have noise-emission limits. Noise pollution is a serious
health issue in cities, and could be a new target once emissions pollution is
largely taken care of.

~~~
mikestew
_I can see the case being made for all vehicles to have noise-emission
limits._

Oh, did you think those loud-ass Harleys and wannabes have _legal_ exhaust
systems on their bikes? They do not. But the laws are so rarely enforced that
we might as well not have them. My old Honda, and I'm pretty sure the current
BMW, have a stamp in the metal on the muffler with words to the effect of
"meets EPA noise standards of 84db", or summat.

I don't know why it's not enforced, either. Seems like easy money on the part
of the municipalities.

~~~
haldean
My understanding (from a friend who was a cop, this was in NYC but it's
probably similar elsewhere) is that what happens is:

1\. Motorcycle makes a ton of noise because muffler is removed / modified

2\. Cop pulls over motorcycle, gives them a citation which requires them to go
to a testing center to have the loudness measured

3\. Motorcycle owner reinstalls stock muffler

4\. Motorcycle owner goes to testing center and passes test with stock system,
and thus doesn't get a ticket

5\. Motorcycle owner removes stock muffler

6\. Goto 1

He said that no one ever pulls motorcycles over for being too loud because
they know this is what happens, and all it's going to be is a lot of paperwork
with no actual punishment for the rider. Cops would have to carry noise meters
for them to be able to give the ticket in-person.

~~~
titusjohnson
I don't understand your last sentence. Cops don't like doing their job? Cops
don't like carrying the equipment needed to do their job?

Step 6 goes to 1, at which point a 2nd ticket is issued. Repeat a 3rd time,
now you add points to the license or suspend it, whatever.

I don't see a difference between policing excessive noise and excessive speed.
The same tools are present and available.

~~~
mrunkel
These aren't "tickets" in the normal sense where a fine is issued, they are
"fix it" tickets where the owner has x days to remedy the defect.

The only cost to the biker is time/money to swap the mufflers and the finding
a cop to show the "repaired" muffler to.

------
dyeje
Would love a scooter, but it's just not practical when there's snow on the
ground.

------
johngalt
It would be interesting to greenfield design transportation.

Cars are very well executed machines, but I've always wondered what
alternatives could happen if there wasn't the weight of backwards
compatibility.

~~~
lostphilosopher
Re: backwards compatibility - Kevin Kelly writes in _What Technology Wants_[0]
that Romans impacted the space shuttle - Roman roads were the model for most
European roads, and were themselves based on the width of two horses walking
next to each other, per "lane" (main use case of the time). Europeans brought
this notion of roads with them to the US and built similar roads. Early cars
had to fit on these roads, and early car roads were built on top of these
horse roads. Eventually, when the space shuttle was designed, shipping its
parts from factories across the company (on roads) had to be factored in.
Therefore there were size/shape constraints on the shuttle that have their
origins in Roman horse drawn carts.

(I'm recalling from memory, Kelly's explanation was probably better. Not
something I've researched beyond finding that anecdote interesting.)

0\. [https://www.amazon.com/What-Technology-Wants-Kevin-
Kelly/dp/...](https://www.amazon.com/What-Technology-Wants-Kevin-
Kelly/dp/0143120174)

~~~
nradov
Space Shuttle parts manufacturing was distributed around the country for
political reasons to ensure continued support from Congress. It would have
been safer and cheaper to manufacture all of the large components close to the
launch site, or at least at sites reachable by barges. The Challenger disaster
was caused by a booster o-ring failure but there was no technical need to
build the boosters in pieces joined by O-rings; they could have been assembled
as a single large unit.

------
bigtunacan
Mopeds are so cheap and fuel efficient already that it is difficult for me to
buy into electric rentals really taking off in this area.

A brand new Wolf 49cc is under $1000 and gets 100mpg.

~~~
BonesJustice
Are you in an area where storage is no problem for most people? Because most
people living in NYC likely don’t have a place they could store their own
moped. Parking is scarce and expensive, and they’re not as easy to stow
indoors as bikes.

~~~
mcjiggerlog
Part of the reason scooters are so popular in countries like Spain is that you
can park them on any pavement. Technically the pavement has to be wider than
3m, but as long as it's not in the way it's fine. Mine has been parked, along
with many others, on the corner of my street for 3 years in a central area of
Madrid without issue.

------
andyidsinga
I see some regulation related comments in the mix - here's a pretty nice chart
summarizing the situation in oregon:

[https://www.portlandoregon.gov/transportation/article/206901](https://www.portlandoregon.gov/transportation/article/206901)

my guess is the muving scooter would fall under "moped rules" due to 30 mph
and no pedals.

------
singularity2001
Are there any models which are not ridiculously tiny for tall people?

------
angryasian
I'm not sure about other states, but in CA you still need a special license,
the same as a motorcycle, to ride a moped. I'm sure this would be the biggest
blocker.

~~~
kingnothing
In California it's actually based on how powerful the scooter is. Under 150cc
doesn't require a motorcycle endorsement.

[https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/motorcycles/motorcy...](https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/motorcycles/motorcycles)

~~~
lylecubed
[https://www.dmv.org/ca-california/other-types.php](https://www.dmv.org/ca-
california/other-types.php)

For electric mopeds, it's based on horsepower, not engine size.

------
gascan
I'm surprised we're only talking about mopeds & scooters- have we skipped
right past electric bicycles?

~~~
jessaustin
They want to be skipped... they're all trying to pretend that they're just
bicycles. b^)

------
jbob2000
Nope, this will never catch on anywhere that experiences winter. You can't
ride a two wheel vehicle on icy roads and it takes a ridiculous amount of
clothing to keep warm. If I have to buy a car for winter to accommodate my
scooter lifestyle, then I might as well just stick with the car.

~~~
mikestew
_You can 't ride a two wheel vehicle on icy roads and it takes a ridiculous
amount of clothing to keep warm._

I'd estimate that when I lived in Indiana, I got the motorcycle out at least
once a week in winter. Wait for the snowplows, let the cars dry things out,
sorted. One of the more motorcycle-crazy towns I know is...wait for
it...Minneapolis. So your hard-core nut jobs will ride regardless.

But let's talk about real people with real levels of sanity. So their scooter
business dips for three months out of the year. No way their business plan
could have accounted for that.

 _it takes a ridiculous amount of clothing to keep warm_

It takes an electric vest that pulls 50W. With a jacket on top, that keeps me
warm to the 30s at 70mph. A speed-limited scooter could get by with much less.
Being battery-powered, there are limits to what one could attach to these
scooters, but even electric hand grips will take a surprising amount of chill
off. And electrically-heated seats are not unheard of.

But enough apologetics, let's get to the "so what?". Fine, these companies
don't go where a flake of snow ever falls. That only leaves us with congested
cities such as Houston, San Diego, Seattle, SF...

~~~
jbob2000
> Wait for the snowplows, let the cars dry things out

This could take 2+ days, how will I get to work on those days?

> _electrically heat everything on the scooter_

So I basically need a car that isn't a car at this point, ok!

I'm not saying scooters aren't a viable business, they definitely are, and
there are companies who make money selling scooters here in Canada. But they
will never be more than a fun summer toy for the upper-middle class.

------
intrasight
That site's broke. Just get message "Looks like you are offline"

------
germinalphrase
I have a mental block between a moped vs a motorcycle. I’d be happy to ride a
compact electric motorcycle (like the old Japanese standards), but I associate
mopeds too directly with college students - more specifically, college
athletes - to take them seriously as a daily ride.

~~~
MartinCron
Just watch the classic film “Roman Holiday” and you will associate scooters
with gorgeous people.

