
Smartphone cradle used to cheat “10k steps/day” health insurance discounts - pizza
https://twitter.com/akaDashan/status/990054109855141888
======
forgueam
I did something similar in college. A company paid cash for installing
software that displayed ads on the bottom of your monitor. It qualified your
ad viewing activity based on mouse movement.

At night I would open the software, wrap my mouse cord around an oscillating
desk fan, then go to bed. Earned myself $50/month

~~~
vanadium
I remember the AllAdvantage.com cheat as well. It became so popular to game
that one that not only were novel tactics like yours employed, but automatic
mouse hijacking apps for Windows made some headway for those that didn't want
to sit and click ads ad nauseum.

I may have made a quick buck on this back in the early 2000s.

~~~
userbinator
_click ads ad nauseum_

There is a browser extension that does this for you:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10611594](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10611594)

It was removed from Chrome's appstore, so it must be very effective...
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13327228](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13327228)
...and shows very clearly whose side they're on.

~~~
duncan_bayne
"So, an advertising company that used to have a motto about not being evil,
but abandoned it, built a web browser."

Realistically that wasn't going to end any other way :)

------
Steltek
I bike 15+ miles a day but my work's discount program doesn't "support"
biking. If I was into vigilante justice, I'd consider a solution like this
too. But as it is, I'm quite content biking for my own sake rather than some
pittance of a benefit.

~~~
liveoneggs
are you more likely to sustain an injury than someone who is mostly idle?

~~~
8ytecoder
Do you have statistics to indicate biking is inherently more dangerous than
other activities or are you just repeating a certain assumption you have?

~~~
8_hours_ago
This is interesting... I am in my 20s and bike ~20 miles per day. Over the
last 5 years I have had 3 broken bones due to bike accidents including one
which required an ambulance ride. With few exceptions, I only go to the doctor
for bike-related injuries and my annual physical. To my health insurance
provider, do the benefits to my cardiovascular system and general fitness
offset the cost to treat my injuries?

I am guessing the insurance companies are looking far enough into the future
where the long term benefits to my health outweigh the short term risks, but
they are definitely losing money in the short term.

~~~
lev99
3 incidents per year at 20miles/day is higher than the statistical average.
Are you biking in a way to increase the likelihood of an incident, biking in
an area that is less safe than the average bike ride, or did you just have an
unlucky year?

~~~
8_hours_ago
That is 3 incidents over 5 years. I don’t think that is too much of a
statistical anomaly. One of the injuries was from a pedestrian stepping into
the bike lane without looking, one was from a car merging into me, and one was
from a collision with another cyclist while racing.

~~~
lev99
I will agree that 3 incidents over 5 years is closer to the normal.

------
charleyma
I've always found that anytime time a financial outcome is tied to some sort
of behavior incentive, weird behaviors come out. This especially comes out in
sales, where whether you like it or not, individuals will typically optimize
for the best financial outcome, which is not always explicitly connected to
what's best for the company.

~~~
fabianhjr
There is also the Cobra effect as a subset of unexpected outcomes.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_effect)

~~~
partiallypro
I much prefer the German word for it, "Verschlimmbesserung."

------
clarkmoody
EconTalk from three weeks ago was _The Tyranny of Metrics_ [1] about how when
metrics are tied to compensation, they often have disastrous consequences,
even to the point of achieving the opposite of the desired effect.

[1]
[http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2018/04/jerry_muller_on.htm...](http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2018/04/jerry_muller_on.html)

~~~
rocky1138
Yes, this reminds me of the Cobra Effect from India:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_effect)

------
kpwags
I wonder how many people use stuff like this to cheat the system? I remember
seeing someone on reddit bragging about attaching their Fitbit to a
reciprocating saw to get more steps than his wife.

I couldn't figure out why it was that important, but with insurance discounts,
I can definitely see the financial incentives.

~~~
ams6110
A lot. I'd be surprised if any Business Management 101 class didn't teach that
if there is a reward involved, people will maximize for whatever critera you
measure.

~~~
Johnny555
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_effect)

 _The term cobra effect originated in an anecdote set at the time of British
rule of colonial India. The British government was concerned about the number
of venomous cobra snakes in Delhi.[3] The government therefore offered bounty
for every dead cobra. Initially this was a successful strategy as large
numbers of snakes were killed for the reward. Eventually, however,
enterprising people began to breed cobras for the income. When the government
became aware of this, the reward program was scrapped, causing the cobra
breeders to set the now-worthless snakes free. As a result, the wild cobra
population further increased. The apparent solution for the problem made the
situation even worse_

~~~
tzs
What did the Delhi residents themselves think about cobras? Were the natives
OK with cobras running around and it was just the British that wanted to
reduce the population?

I'm curious because if everybody disliked wild cobras loose in the city I'd
have expected the breeders to kill their stock when the bounty ended, not free
it.

~~~
emodendroket
Why would you expect that in a world where people dump hazardous waste into
rivers to save money?

~~~
tedunangst
Because dehazarding waste is more difficult than chopping up a snake?

~~~
emodendroket
But letting the snakes go is even easier. Use the example of people littering
instead of using a trash can, or not flushing public toilets, if you need a
demonstration of how people can't be bothered with even simple tasks.

~~~
tedunangst
Most people aren't worried their litter will literally come back to bite them.
Were the snake breeders really unconcerned that dumping a bunch of snakes out
the back window wouldn't have consequences?

~~~
Johnny555
They were breeding poisonous snakes in a land where those snakes already live
in the wild, I doubt they were worried about having a few more of those snakes
out there.

These breeders were trying to scam a government program so they didn't exactly
have the highest scruples, expecting them to do _anything_ to aid society is
probably too much to expect.

------
emodendroket
Wellness programs and similar initiatives are so repellent to me that I'm
pretty sympathetic to everyone fooling them.

~~~
gascan
Turn it around- perhaps the low risk individuals find subsidizing the high
risk individuals equally repellent. Wellness programs allow those individuals
to recover some of their premiums.

~~~
mplewis
Low-risk individuals subsidizing high-risk individuals? We just call that
"insurance."

~~~
baddox
That’s not a trait inherent to insurance. Premiums can be adjusted based on
risk so that everyone “subsidizes” everyone else by the same amount on
average.

~~~
emodendroket
In this case the people who most need insurance cannot afford it.

------
BrentOzar
I've seen folks wrap their step tracker in a couple pairs of socks, then
either throw it in the dryer, or tie the socks to a ceiling fan on low. Those
particular folks called it "going jogging."

~~~
moscovium
I'm so glad these incentives have contributed to expediting the eventual heat
death of our universe

~~~
daviross
To be fair, you posting this comment __also __contributed to expediting the
eventual heat death of the universe, so.

~~~
Caprinicus
Fortunately he has fit bits on all 10 fingers so it wasn’t a waste

------
otakucode
What you measure - you optimize. They measured cellphone shaking. They got
optimized cellphone shaking.

I will also share another famous quotation of mine which I intend to
eventually get tattooed somewhere (when I can figure out how to make it look
good.. I have no tattoos): "Make game of that which makes as much as thee." \-
from The Rubiyat by Omar Khayaam.

~~~
ghostbrainalpha
_Omar Khayyam_

Great quote. But you probably know, that the English translation is more
inspired by Omar, and much of what you enjoyed was the work of FitzGerald.

[https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/bookreviews/516526...](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/bookreviews/5165263/The-
Rubaiyat-of-Omar-Khayyam-by-Edward-FitzGerald.html)

Full Quote:

 _“But leave the Wise to wrangle, and with me

The Quarrel of the Universe let be:

And, in some corner of the Hubbub couch'd,

Make Game of that which makes as much of Thee.”_

~~~
otakucode
I originally found the quote in a computer science book, and it interested me
enough to seek out The Rubiyat to read. The version I found (online I believe)
was actually a translation of several different versions of the work I
believe? I'm not sure who the translator was. The quote in particular was only
present in one of the 'versions' of the work. I imagine translating poetry, of
all things, would be tremendously difficult, but as I don't know many other
languages I had to take what I could get. Regardless of source, I think the
quote is very insightful and stupendously relevant in todays world that seeks
to reduce all people to an easily manipulable optimized factor in a rigid
system. Viewing those systems as a game to optimize in turn seems the only
rational course.

------
walrus01
similar but different, a manual labor app store rating farm:

[https://cdn.vox-
cdn.com/thumbor/zHQqznuFPd6EO1ryjV2Zlc6MSxY=...](https://cdn.vox-
cdn.com/thumbor/zHQqznuFPd6EO1ryjV2Zlc6MSxY=/0x146:439x439/920x613/filters:focal\(0x146:439x439\)/cdn.vox-
cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/45675836/53899d01jw1eovdjy4jmgj20hs0npaeh.0.0.jpg)

------
jonahhorowitz
The obvious defect in this device is that it doesn't charge your phone while
it walks it for you.

------
49bc
The Wells Fargo effect: if you optimize for a number, you’ll get that number.

------
donttrack
Next up: GPS cradles to proxy your driving habits into granddaddy mode to get
cheap car insurance.

~~~
camhenlin
It seems like the additional miles added might defeat the purpose

~~~
lev99
Yeah, but spoofing GPS is possible. The black box insurance gadgets typically
wire directly into a car, so it'll be harder send fake data from that
pipeline, but totally possible.

The benefit would come from smoothing extremes. Lie about speeds over 80,
reduce big accelerations and hard breaking. Lieing about total miles could
also work, but I think that could be done by just unplugging the box, or only
sending it power and not data.

------
saagarjha
This would presumably work as long as your insurance provider doesn't have
access to your location or any other means of figuring out that your exercise
routine is odd.

~~~
craftyguy
You could claim you were on a treadmill

~~~
saagarjha
Right, in the middle of a Harbin restaurant where a bunch of other people like
to also seem to like "running on the treadmill".

~~~
williamscales
Perhaps there's a gym on the second floor!

------
diiaann
My uncle in China had a seat belt chime defeater that also doubled as a bottle
opener.

------
CosmicShadow
Funny enough, my wife works at an insurance company that has "walking
stations" where you can work while on a treadmill and the fitbit doesn't
detect steps that way unless you remove it from your wrist and jam it in your
belt or bra, which doesn't always work when the walk stations are not private.

------
borntyping
I'm sure I've something similar come up a few times recently, but never with
any source discussing the health insurance plans that supposedly collect this
data.

Has anyone come across anything on these insurance plans? I'm sure it's
something many companies would love to do but I remain skeptical.

------
dogruck
It always makes me smile when I see the hoard of people proudly step forward,
and boast, “oh yes, here are examples of how I’ve cheated various systems!!”

Which is fine. That’s human nature.

But. No shame.

~~~
ryandrake
Not sure I see anything shameful here. More like clever.

I’m reminded of that guy[1] who earned tons of airline miles by taking
advantage of an ill-thought-out pudding promotion.

1:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Phillips_(entrepreneur...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Phillips_\(entrepreneur\))

~~~
dogruck
Clever and unethical aren’t disjoint. Lotta clever thieves and scammers.

------
DonHopkins
Herbie Hancock and Jim Whiting rocked it in 1984!

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockit_(song)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockit_\(song\))

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHhD4PD75zY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHhD4PD75zY)

------
dghughes
I was using the Samsung Health app not for insurance just for personal
reasons. I was doing well most days I waked a minimum of 10,000 steps or so I
thought. So I opened up the app to find it was not working because it had
updated and I had to agree to new terms first. :(

------
intrasight
These program will all be illegal at the end of the year anyway, so don't
invest much in hacks.

~~~
avhon1
Do you have a source on that? Also, what country?

~~~
intrasight
Best thing is to google "ada aarp eeoc gina" for timeframe of last few months.
An example

[https://www.provanthealth.com/industry-
trends/2018/3/26/what...](https://www.provanthealth.com/industry-
trends/2018/3/26/whats-happening-with-aarp-vs-eeoc-on-march-30)

"In the fall of 2016, the AARP brought suit on behalf of its members, arguing
that the ADA and GINA regulations are inconsistent with Congress’s statutory
requirement that employers’ wellness programs be “voluntary.” The AARP argued
its members were injured by being forced to pay higher health insurance costs
to avoid disclosing personal health information. In the fall of 2017, the U.S.
District Court for the District of Columbia granted summary judgment to the
AARP, holding that, although the term “voluntary” was ambiguous in the ADA’s
and GINA’s statutes, the EEOC’s interpretation of the term was not supported
by a reasoned explanation and therefore was not entitled to the Court’s
deference."

[http://www.psfinc.com/articles/aarp-vs-eeoc-lawsuit-
update-s...](http://www.psfinc.com/articles/aarp-vs-eeoc-lawsuit-update-still-
no-clarity/)

"If the current court order stands, wellness programs may not be allowed to
tie incentives to wellness programs subject to the ADA or GINA."

------
onetimemanytime
serious question: is it insurance fraud?

------
notanai
One day all of us have to do stuff like this to keep up.

~~~
trumped
Can some AI do it for me?

------
consto
Metrics exist to be cheated. For better or for worse.

------
wufufufu
Maybe if you're smart enough to do that, you're smart enough to care about
your health in other ways and thus you should still fit into the price model
that the insurance company uses ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

~~~
quink
I’m on Medicare in Australia (so universal healthcare mostly funded by 2% of
all taxable income that came in real handy for me last year) and I have an
incentive to walk 10,000 steps every morning. A coffee with artificial
sweetener from 7 Eleven will do it. And I aim to listen to good podcasts or
the like while I do.

I wouldn’t do it otherwise. Even the flimsiest of pretenses will do it.

~~~
45h34jh53k4j
You are in aussie and drink 7/11 coffee by choice? Turn in your Australia card
mate...

~~~
joshschreuder
Not everyone in Australia lives in Melbourne :) (just the best coffee
drinkers)

~~~
quink
Bingo, plus it’s the only place open other than Maccas at the time of day at a
near enough perfect 10,000 step distance along an indirect route.

Doing it this way also takes care of the cheating concern, it’s a reward I can
only get by physically doing the work.

Plus, it gives me a quiet time to watch everything including the Star Trek
back catalogue.

And I don’t live in Melbourne so honestly brown water with a gram of sweet is
a synonym for coffee.

