
Tell: Got 50% bump for faking a counter offer - fakeusername
I lied about another counter offer at negotiation time and the new company bumped the total offer package from $170,000 (base $130,000) to $260,000 (base $155,000 ) to match the fake counter offer and also bumped the offered titled two levels up. Shows the importance having a counted offer. I have 9 years of software development experience and current and new company is in Seattle Area. Just wanted to say it to somebody about the guilt which I cannot refuse to have.
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gyardley
I hope the area of residence / years of experience / original offer / new
offer / title bump have all been changed at least somewhat, because if not,
the people who hired you could potentially see this and identify you - and
they might not appreciate that you lied to them.

If you're feeling guilty about something, tell it to your dog.

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jamespitts
I am going to go out on a limb and say that fake anything is a bullshit way of
doing business. In a small way, you probably have made our corner of the world
a worse place to be in.

Why not just ask for 260K? To lie in order to get it may seem like the only
way to guarantee a realization of what you are worth, but this fosters a
business climate that you ultimately may not want to live in. Companies may
feel the need to be more defensive at the negotiating table, put the squeeze
on developers in terms of hours or reduced open source contributions, or even
to illegally collude in order to force people to stay at their... oh wait that
one already happened.

A business climate in which parties are faking information can be a dangerous
place. It is in our collective best interest to be honest and to foster an
environment in which honesty is expected. Think on that the next time you buy
a food product.

Another example that is more general: company leadership feels the need to
produce a certain kind of quarterly financial result in order to appear
favorable to investors or customers. The company that has the most accolades
fakes it the most, leading to a lot of pressure on everyone else to do the
same. Someone has to pay for this though, often it is paid in increased risk.

EDIT: removed irrelevant examples.

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fakeusername
Any argument against this? Jamespitts seems to make perfect sense here.
@jamespitts, thanks for the valuable comments. As per my experience just
asking $260K from the professional negotiator would have not landed me
anywhere near this figure, he would have at-most increased 10K. Not arguing
against what you said, just saying I cannot win with recruiter on negotiation
without counter offers.

~~~
jamespitts
Thanks for the measured reply, f.u.n... I can definitely sympathize with your
point about your not being able to realistically ask for the amount you ended
up with!

We are at a serious disadvantage, even though it seems to many outside the
industry that we make an incredible amount of money. But our high salaries are
actually quite a bargain considering how much value is potentially going to be
realized by the founders and investors (across multiple investments and over
the long run).

A few days ago I was actually thinking about the challenge for a developer of
achieving a salary closer to what one is worth. I was wondering if job
searches can be better managed so that offers land at nearly the same time,
perhaps through some sort of software-based mechanism that is well-understood
and widely accepted.

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jasonpeacock
More money is good, congrats, and this is just part of negotiation. But the
company itself sounds broken.

Any company that will give you a higher title/pay based that's not based on
skill is not doing job leveling properly. Going from (for example) "Jr. SDE"
to "Sr. SDE" just because of a counter-offer/negotiation? No way. I'd be
worried who else at the company is employed at a higher level than they should
be...

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ForHackernews
I have a question: How do people even have _real_ counteroffers? Do you apply
for multiple jobs and two or more happen to make you an offer? How do you
manage to get the times to line up so perfectly?

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joezydeco
One way is to go back to your original company and say you're leaving. You
then either sit back and see if they offer you more money to stay, or you
explicitly tell them "NewCo is offering $X" and see if they match or beat
that.

This move, while very gutsy and sometimes very effective, only really works in
an industry where you're in high demand and/or you're essential to the
operation of your current employer.

But, in either case, there's no guarantee. Your old boss might certainly
counter-offer and give you the higher salary, but only long enough to find a
replacement employee at (or even less than) your old salary. Then your salary
very abruptly drops to $0.

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talmand
Why feel guilty? If they are willing to pay that much, then you are worth that
much to them.

I see it as the opposite, they were willing to pay you less than what they see
as your potential value. For their own benefit.

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edman
How can one not feel guilty when lying?

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talmand
That is the intriguing question in this type of situation.

Is it okay to lie to someone that's taking advantage of you?

Is it okay to lie if you and your family benefits with no real harm done to
the second party?

Is it okay to lie in response to a lie?

I guess the real self-judgement has to be based on whether one knew the
nefarious behavior of the other party beforehand or not. It's a tough one.

But I understand your point, I often wonder if law enforcement officers ever
feel guilt over the fact they can, and do, outright lie as part of their jobs.

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djan92
Forget the guilt and channel your energy to creating more than $260,00 of
value for your company.

During my first internship at a a start up that was about to IPO, I was so
grateful, I would have worked for free. After a semester and the IPO, I was
offered a different internship that I thought would provide more learning
value. I told my mentor/manager, and he pulled me aside.

He said, "name a pay hike, and we can easily get it for you." I remember being
so surprised because I was replaceable, and my work could easily be shifted to
a new intern. Also, I remember the chance they took at taking an unproven
undergrad on a rocketship of a startup. He told me that I didn't understand
how businesses work yet, and I would soon learn that you are worth the value
you provide.

Since then, I focus on knowing that at any company, I will provide incremental
value, not just the status quo, but against competitive peers. And if a
company offers more than I believe I can provide at a given time, I'll work my
ass off to get to point where I can provide commiserate value.

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EGreg
Just out of curiosity, what is the industry your company is in, and what kind
of position were you hired for?

This is not at all to find out who you are, but I haven'f seen such salaries
as the norm for most developers so I am always curious to know more as to what
field and position attracts this kind of compensation out of the gate.

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Someone1234
Yeah that's an insanely high pay packet even for a developer. Even sensor
developers aren't seeing more than 120K around here.

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notjustanymike
You're worth what people are willing to pay you, good job!

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jqm
So what if they had told they had someone who would do the job for 60K and so
you should feel lucky?

Or what if they had told you "Congratulations! you are moving on to bigger and
better things. Have your desk cleaned out within half an hour"?

Sometimes bluffs work, sometimes they don't.

~~~
fakeusername
No, I would have asked them to go with that person. I knew current market
value and asked that. I would not have accepted on original terms. Negotiation
without counter offer is impossible to get that jump which I needed to accept
the offer.

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onion2k
People should negotiate. I'm not particularly impressed by the underhand
tactics; obviously it'd have been better if you'd countered with "I think I'm
worth $260k" and been contracted on that rather than lying about it, and
obviously you've given your new employer a free pass to fire you if anyone
ever finds out. But the result is definitely a win.

One caveat to that win though - your employer's expectations of the value
you'll bring also went up from $170k to $260k. You've gone from 'very good
developer' to 'in-demand amazing developer'. You get all the stress that comes
with that.

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ladytron
Now take that offer and plan on getting out of this company in the next 6
months. Look for a big multinational with a long term vision with interesting
work. You can now go to conferences and network with your new title and pay
level.

I think this current company is not great if they were willing to underpay and
then reverse course quickly only when they thought there was a counteroffer. I
think your job is likely to not go well and you should start looking AGAIN
immediately at a higher quality company. While you still have employment.

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Satoshietal
We were wondering about that. Now several of us have stumbled across this
item. So, report to HR tomorrow morning for your exit interview.

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jchung
Are you actually the hiring manager in this situation, or just highlighting
how foolish it is for OP to offer so much detail in his/her submission?

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serve_yay
Well done! Don't be guilty though, that's how engineers get underpaid in the
first place.

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breakinggood
Why do you feel guilt at all? The company could afford to bump your salary up
50%, you just needed to give them a compelling reason to do so. In a world
where sociopathic behavior is celebrated, you’re just playing the game.

~~~
fakeusername
That was the exactly the reason for lying, though can be justified for the
game but you start to question your 'integrity' which is relative to the game
you are playing.

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MCRed
That's a bit confusing. Guessing you're in europe and talking euros per month?
Cause initially, to an american it looks like you're talking about $1,700,000
a year - a huge salary-- and just dropped a zero.

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fakeusername
Its $170,000 total package including stocks, salary etc. per year and not
$1,700,000 and I am in Seattle, USA.

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fakenametoo
Can I ask you what is your job? I'd like to make money like that too.

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fakeusername
S/W Engineer. That pay scale is current trend in most good IT companies. Most
of my friends in similar experience/field getting this, and I asked for that
range too based on current trend.

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edman
It's not nice to lie. There is nothing wrong in trying to get the best package
possible. You just should not be doing it with lying.

~~~
reinier
The company was capable/willing to pay 50% more, but in first instance did
not. Negotiation tactics, unfairness and manipulation, lies. It's what you
should come to expect from companies, especially large ones. On the company
side of the table is someone in charge of making sure the company spends as
little money as possible on him. I think he did a great job getting the most
out of it. He deserves it, for thinking it through. Most people aren't that
great at serving their own interest and getting what they deserve in
negotiations like that.

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martco
I think you mean to say, "Got 50% bump _by_ faking a counter offer".

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chrisan
Is there a good site to see how much one "should" be making?

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fakeusername
www.glassdoor.com may help.

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nobodysfool
Reminds me of myself a few years back, but it was a different tactic. Ok maybe
it was 13 years ago, but still... I was offered $14/hr for some job at a
factory as computer support. I had an interview with the customer, and the
agency accidentally forwards me what they were making. I asked for $17/hr or
no deal. It was a fair deal because I knew how much they were making and their
profit was still good. They threatened to get someone else, I hung up, they
called back later and accepted the deal. After working there for a while I
found the timesheets of the previous person ... at $17/hr. So I was glad that
I held out. It was a fine moment of negotiation on my part. I could have asked
for more, but I gave them a fair number that I knew they couldn't refuse.

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iterationx
You lied for money. EOF

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mrbonner
Seattle? Man, I feel underpaid right NOW.

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artie_effim
UNITS!!????!!!!

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seanflyon
Dollars per year.

