
How an Undocumented Immigrant from Mexico Became a Star at Goldman Sachs - jack_axel
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-02-25/how-an-undocumented-immigrant-from-mexico-became-a-star-at-goldman-sachs
======
Incredulous42
Wait, how did she get a proper green card? I know she married a US citizen but
why didn't the government notice that she'd been in the country illegally? I
mean she didn't materialize out of thin air. She had a fake SSN, fake tax
records and apparently tax problems, etc.

Also, now that she came out, can her citizenship be revoked? She was in the
country illegally for more than a decade, worked illegally, and apparently had
tax issues. Don't you have to certify that you've complied with laws and paid
your taxes when you apply for permanent residency or citizenship? Don't you
have to supply police records for all the places that you've lived when
applying for permanent residency? So she must have lied or not supplied all
the information that was required. Or did the government just let it slide?

She also admits to marrying her boyfriend in large part because it would
legalize her status. That's awfully close to admitting marriage fraud.

Edit: The whole thing sounds a bit like "Look how successful I was, therefore
I deserved to live in the US, and I was justified in breaking immigration
law." It's a slap in the face to all honest immigrants.

~~~
refurb
My understanding is that under certain circumstances, such as marrying a US
citizen, the USCIS can ignore any past violations of immigration law.[1]

 _" If you are a foreign citizen who is in the United States without
permission, having overstayed your visa, you can indeed cure the problem if
you enter into a bona fide (real) marriage with a U.S. citizen and then apply
for adjustment of status (a green card)."_

You are correct that for most visas and green cards, any violation of
immigration law means that your application will be denied.

[1][http://www.alllaw.com/articles/nolo/us-immigration/visa-
over...](http://www.alllaw.com/articles/nolo/us-immigration/visa-overstay-
waived-marry-us-citizen.html)

~~~
Incredulous42
Interesting. There was an episode on This American Life a few years ago about
a Mexican-American couple. He had been in the US illegally and he had to leave
and wait for ten years before he could come back legally even though they had
married in the US. So they moved to Ciudad Juarez. He's working at a local
factory, she's commuting to El Paso every day. IIRC they weren't entirely
happy with their situation but they didn't complain either.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Would you have a link to this story? I'd love to listen to it!

~~~
Incredulous42
I believe it's Act Two of episode:

[http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-
archives/episode/501/t...](http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-
archives/episode/501/the-view-from-in-here)

------
wtbob
I hate the phrase 'undocumented immigrant.' It's not like she had some
documents and—whoops!—lost them. She _had_ documents from Mexico (presumably);
she _had_ expired documents from the United States. She was an alien whose
residence in the United States was illegal; the phrase 'illegal alien' is
completely accurate. The phrase 'illegal immigrant' is also accurate in her
case, since she intended to stay here for good.

> “There is still the stigma that what we did is shameful,” she says. “I’m
> tired of being ashamed for pursuing my dream, for climbing up the ladder,
> and for having success.”

She _should_ be ashamed: she appears to have violated immigration, pension and
tax laws. 'I'm pursuing my dreams and being successful' is not a valid
counter-argument to 'you're breaking the law.' She's a criminal; she's
literally a shameless criminal.

~~~
toomuchtodo
"Well, when we look back on history, the progress of Western civilization and
human rights is actually founded on the violation of law. America was of
course born out of a violent revolution that was an outrageous treason against
the crown and established order of the day. History shows that the righting of
historical wrongs is often born from acts of unrepentant criminality. Slavery.
The protection of persecuted Jews.

But even on less extremist topics, we can find similar examples. How about the
prohibition of alcohol? Gay marriage? Marijuana? Where would we be today if
the government, enjoying powers of perfect surveillance and enforcement, had
-- entirely within the law -- rounded up, imprisoned, and shamed all of these
lawbreakers?

Ultimately, if people lose their willingness to recognize that there are times
in our history when legality becomes distinct from morality, we aren't just
ceding control of our rights to government, but our agency in determining our
futures."

...

"In such times, we'd do well to remember that at the end of the day, the law
doesn't defend us; we defend the law. And when it becomes contrary to our
morals, we have both the right and the responsibility to rebalance it toward
just ends."

\-- Edward Snowden

[1][https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2wwdep/we_are_edward_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2wwdep/we_are_edward_snowden_laura_poitras_and_glenn/courx1i)

~~~
wtbob
Yes, unjust laws should be ignored. Is it unjust for a culture to attempt to
regulate the rate at which it admits outsiders? I don't think so. As outsiders
enter an organisation, they both alter it and are altered by it; if too many
enter it before they are altered by it (i.e., assimilated), then the
organisation fundamentally changes.

We all know that this is true of startups; if a startup grows too quickly, it
risks losing the culture which enabled it to succeed in the first place. Risk-
takers are slowly drowned out by risk-avoiders, and eventually the startup
loses its drive. Is it so crazy that the same would be true of states?

I posit that there's nothing unjust about regulating the rate of influx into a
society, and plenty unjust about flouting those regulations and cutting one's
place in line.

Incidentally, Edward Snowden should be hanged by the neck until dead; quoting
him is hardly compelling.

~~~
toomuchtodo
> Incidentally, Edward Snowden should be hanged by the neck until dead;
> quoting him is hardly compelling.

Hopefully we can continue to marginalize people with such an opinion. Exposing
government corruption should never be a capital offense.

~~~
wtbob
> Exposing government corruption should never be a capital offense.

Betraying one's country should always be a capital offense. Snowden violated
his NDA; he betrayed his colleagues and his fellow citizens; he fled into the
hands of China and Russia; he revealed legitimate and legal operations which
he had no business revealing. He's a traitor.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Any plans for calling for the dismantling of the NSA for blatantly violating
the constitutional rights of millions of Americans?

If I want someone hung or burned at the stake, its those who trample the civil
rights of myself and my fellow citizen for the illusion of safety when none
can be guaranteed.

~~~
wtbob
> Any plans for calling for the dismantling of the NSA for blatantly violating
> the constitutional rights of millions of Americans?

It has not done that. It may or may not have violated what you (and possibly
I) might _like_ those rights to be. But wanting doesn't make something so. I
would _love_ to restrict subpoena power solely to defendants compelling
testimony in their defense, but until it has been so restricted, anyone can be
forced to provide evidence to the state. I would _love_ for the Fourth
Amendment to apply at border crossings, but the courts—to include the Supreme
Court—have repeatedly held that it does not.

The law is not what we want, but what it is. So far as I am aware, NSA has
consistently acted within the limits of the law, as interpreted by the courts
for decades and centuries. Acting within the limits of the law, incidentally,
is precisely what neither Mr. Snowden nor Miss Arce did.

------
sparkzilla
She should have gone through the process like everyone else. I invested
hundreds of thousands of dollars in my business to get a visa, spending all of
that money on American suppliers and employing Americans. Now that the
business failed I have to leave the U.S., taking my kids out of their schools,
and start the process all over again, taking even more time, expense and
disruption. But I am not going to break the law.

As usual, the people who abide by the rules get screwed, while those who break
them, not only thrive, but get written about as some kind of heroes.

~~~
littletimmy
She should suffer because you suffered? I sympathize with you but that's not
good logic.

~~~
hyperliner
His argument is that she should have followed the rules. It was not about
suffering.

My argument somewhere else in this thread is that the system has become an
insane one.

------
hyperliner
The problem with the issue of illegal immigration in the US is that is has
become too politicized, and the issues that relate to millions of people take
precedence over the issues of attracting the fewer immigrants who bring a
certain skill to the country.

I am going to criticize her approach a little first. She was a minor when
coming over, but she did knowingly throw her employer under the bus as an
adult who did not appropriately check her status for employment. The fact that
this article exists seems a little self-serving and thankless to GS. If you
are going under the radar and your employer had a slip up, the least you can
do is keep quiet and keep working. You just embarrassed GS for nothing (not
that the banking industry cares).

That being said, let's go back to the issue: why was this qualified person not
easily allowed to apply for preferential status under the immigration rules?
She has a college degree in a select field where we need resources, a job
offer from a company more than willing to employ her, yet she was still
considered in the same bucket as millions of others? That kind of sucks and it
would be the same situation as in high tech.

Again, I know she should have stood in the line as millions of others and
waited. However, today that is an unreasonable proposition as for many
countries the line that is being considered is for those folks who applied in
the 1990s.

There is another conversation to be had about the millions of other people who
simply skip the line, and whether we in America try to have it both ways by
"not wanting them" but "wanting the cheap tomatoes at the supermarket." That
is for another thread.

~~~
huherto
> America try to have it both ways by "not wanting them" but "wanting the
> cheap tomatoes at the supermarket." That is for another thread.

Increased security at the border is keeping people in the USA. They would
return to their families if they could, but they have to stay here because
crossing back and forth is too dangerous. They should be able to come to the
farms in the USA seasonally, help and go back to their families in Mexico. The
money they bring to their rural communities will be highly beneficial to those
communities. These are hardworking people that are desperate in need of work.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bracero_program](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bracero_program)

~~~
hyperliner
That seems to be a formal, properly managed program with a specific need.

I was referring to both sides of the argument: people simply skip the line
too, which screws people who stood in an orderly line. So with both sides
screwed up (people skipping the line and Americans going "I dont want them but
I want the cheap produce and the cheap nanny"), no wonder it is a free for
all.

~~~
spiralpolitik
Sadly a properly managed program would require employers to pay a minimum
wage, which is unacceptable to employers (along with other things that would
solve the problem like mandatory use of eVerify for all employment
applications).

Basically the current mess will continue because there is too much money to be
made out of it.

------
pshin45
For all those wondering why she was not deported when she "came out" publicly,
U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (aka "ICE") generally prioritizes
immigrants involved in criminal activity (e.g. smuggling, drugs, etc.) due to
limited resources and a distaste for stirring controversy, so as long as you
are a productive member of society who is paying taxes and not breaking the
law otherwise, ICE is willing to look the other way.

In fact, Jose Antonio Vargas (who is mentioned in the article) actually once
called up ICE directly to ask them why they were not trying to deport him
after he had come out publicly about his status and received a lot of
attention in the press about it. ICE never got back to him.

------
fiatmoney
So take a note: if you bank with Goldman, you have no idea of the actual
identity of the person you're dealing with.

"Stole client money & fled the country" isn't exactly common, but it is a
thing that happens.

------
lmg643
Interesting that Goldman doesn't have good enough background checks (or any
background check?) to catch fake SS numbers. The securities industry is
supposed to fingerprint and check any candidate who would be licensed, which a
securities salesperson generally would be.

~~~
hyperliner
It was not easy to check SS numbers back then. She joined the firm in 2005.
The systems that verifies them today is recent
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-Verify](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-Verify)).
It did not really start working well until 2007.

[http://www.uscis.gov/e-verify](http://www.uscis.gov/e-verify)

~~~
Incredulous42
I can understand that you might not verify the number for every random low-
level position. But a securities trader has a specific risk profile and I
would assume a higher level of due diligence by the employer to avoid
potential law suits or problems with their liability insurance.

I'm also a little surprised that you can work and pay payroll taxes to an
invalid SSN. Shouldn't that raise a red flag when someone pays payroll taxes
to an invalid SSN, or when the name of the employee doesn't match the name on
the SSN? Doesn't the social security administration notice that and notify ADP
/ the employer? Not just to combat fraud but also to uncover and fix honest
mistakes when someone flips a digit in an SSN?

~~~
hyperliner
Maybe you are not in America and don't understand the power and the behavior
of the Internal Revenue Service, which tracks your due taxes.

There are BILLIONS of dollars collected by the IRS into accounts not for the
original beneficiary. The Federal Government is the last entity who will
complain about those Billions of Dollars extra.

I am sure there is no RED FLAG for, "hey, look, you PAID US MORE" nor for "YOU
SHOULD NOT HAVE PAID US THIS."

That is one requirement that would have immediately been deleted from the
spec.

------
dismal2
Wonder is she was paying any taxes? This whole article feels strange to me, if
I slipped through the cracks and got luck I wouldn't be shouting on the
rooftops about it.

~~~
hyperliner
hmmm, at that level of income, you don't PAY your taxes. They are DEDUCTED
from your paycheck.

------
PhoenixWright
Personally I was inspired by her story. At 11 she didn't exactly decide to
break the law herself. Do you all expect her to move to a place she doesn't
even know after graduating from a great U.S. school? To me her story is of one
who astutely overcame an insane amount of obstacles to achieve tremendous
success.

Also for those veiled "illegal alien" racist I hope your smug attempt to caste
a group of people as beneath you gives you the complacency you so crave.

------
lscore720
I can't help but correlate her immigration tactics with the greed & character
flaws necessary for many traders & ibankers to pursue this type of career.
I'll continue to beat the dead horse by saying "what a waste of talent."

------
supahfly_remix
Maybe I missed it, but how did she qualify for the citizenship mentioned in
the 2nd to last paragraph?

~~~
hyperliner
I did too, at first. But she and the boyfriend married. I assume the boyfriend
is a US Citizen. Then she qualified as a spouse.

~~~
spiralpolitik
But still the US Citizenship application form has lots of very specific
questions about past deeds that she would have been required to answer under
oath. Either a) She disclosed and answered them "correctly" and had a good
immigration lawyer or b) She lied, in which case her citizenship (in theory)
could be revoked should USCIS wish to purse the matter in court.

------
zghst
"Undocumented Immigrant"

~~~
kingmanaz
Illegal Alien.

"But if thought corrupts language, language can also corrupt thought."

― Orwell, "1984"

~~~
mcantelon
It would be interesting to read a case study on how a small cultural change
such as this is pushed. The fact that this wording change is being pushed is,
in itself, a signal that a societal power seeks to change how we think of
illegal immigration. As with many pushes, such as the push to accept the idea
of globalization, a moral argument is used to convince the petite bourgeoisie
of the worth of something that members of the ruling class want.

