
It's just wood - plusbryan
http://plusbryan.com/its-just-wood
======
webwright
Literally everything is explained on the web/YouTube-- I learned this when I
remodeled my house down to the studs with virtually no experience. Need to
repoint a chimney? Trim a window? Hang a door? Tile a shower?

You're a single search away from knowing how to do almost anything
practical... Seconds of research when 20 years ago you'd be hoping in the car
and driving to the library in hopes that _maybe_ you could find the best
book/pages to get you where you needed to be.

~~~
the_cat_kittles
I've considered buying a run down house, spending a year fixing it up using
youtube, and then selling it for hopefully a profit- I have no doubt I could
do a good job with just youtube and the internet, but the only thing stopping
me is confidence that I will be able to sell it. Has anyone done something
like this?

~~~
dfc
The following comment is motivated by genuine good faith and a desire to
prevent a potential catastrophe, financially or medically. Please understand I
say this with all due respect. If this is your attitude:

    
    
      > I have no doubt I could do a good job with just youtube
    

I highly suggest you do not go through with this plan. From reading this
statement it sounds like you have very little knowledge of
renovation/remodeling. There are three big problems

1\. Lack of respect for the skill and experience needed in basic trades:
electrician/plumber/carpentry. This attitude "oh there is nothing to it, it is
just blue collar work. I can watch some youtube videos and learn it in no
time" is dangerous, costly and silly/arrogant. Master craftsman take a long
time to learn their trade. Your inability to estimate what is needed and how
long it will take and what might come up is going to be a giant problem.
Experienced tradesmen have seen the 50 different ways people have screwed up
plumbing/wiring/etc and has a good idea how to begin a new project and handle
these screwups as they are slowly discovered. A lot of the work you will do
will be do to "oh shit X is busted" moments, not "Wow, that went smoothly, X
is done. Lets proceed to the next item on the outline of work I came up with
originally and have not had to deviate from."

2\. It takes a couple of full Xs to get the hang of doing X. Lets take
something basic like rocking and taping a room. There is a guy on YT,
DryWallGaul, that makes the best drywall videos I have ever seen. I have had a
lot of people "teach me the trick to taping" and it never made sense and never
came out well. If you watched his videos and practiced hanging sheetrock you
could definitely get great walls in due time. The problem is your one year
turn around house only has so many walls. I redid almost all of the walls in
my house but I never got the hang of it until I hung sheetrock at a 4,000
square foot volunteer project. I went through three left hand mechanix gloves
before I got proficient zipping screws into studs. (The let index finger is
slowly eaten up from holding the screws) Maybe you can do a good job on the
last bedroom but I promise you your first three bedrooms are going to look
like homeowner harry went to war on the weekend. How many opportunities to do
X/Y/Z do you think you will have in this one year house?

3\. Working by yourself safely is tough.(Especially if its your first time
ever doing X) Doing good work, safely, alone is tougher. Doing good work,
safely, alone, for the first time and finishing in a year is impossible.

My advice is that you volunteer for habitat for humanity or something similar.
Get a decent amount of experience under your belt and then rethink this plan.
The nice thing about the volunteer "internship" is that you will also be able
to get an idea of what tools to buy and which ones you like and you can slowly
build up a tool set.

 _Drywall Master:_
[https://www.youtube.com/user/drywallgall](https://www.youtube.com/user/drywallgall)

I can't say enough about Laurier, he is not only a skilled craftsman--which is
rare enough-- but most importantly he is a good teacher.

~~~
the_cat_kittles
good stuff, and by no means do i dismiss things that are blue collar- its the
same attitude i had towards learning software dev. more a testament to youtube
than anything. I have refurbished stairs, repainted and refinished things, and
done a fair amount of woodworking (mostly furniture)- I certainly wouldn't
want to take on something big like electricity and plumbing etc. I was
thinking something more like landscaping, redo floors, maybe do some bathroom
improvements etc. Maybe you assumed I meant things much larger in scope
because you think that those smaller types of changes wont actually improve
the value much?

------
sharkweek
I love this article --

As a fun aside, I am meticulous about trying to learn every little detail I
can about problems that arise with both my car and my house (it drives my wife
crazy). I am an extremely "unhandy" person, but I still love giving it a go.

This has led to the following two most common scenarios:

1) I fix the problem at hand after some trial and error, saving lots of money
on an expensive service call (fixed a leaky sink, repaired a lawn mower, etc).

2) I make things (way) worse, thus costing a lot more money than it should (my
car's exhaust system, the sewer line from our house, etc).

I'm likely sitting at a zero sum; all well worth it.

~~~
justinsteele
In the beginning it's tough to determine what is worth contracting out and
what is not. After you spend some time experimenting (and often having it all
come out in the wash as you saw), you can gain a better sense of when to call
in an "expert" and what to DIY.

------
patio11
On a related note: as you grow in competence at any skill set, more things
move into being "just wood." If you're an accomplished carpenter, a chair is
"just wood", even though it might be quite intimidating to someone who has
never worked with tools before.

The Ogaki tax office is perpetually flabbergasted that I can explain the
timing for revenue recognition of SaaS software contracts under Japanese GAAP.
It is a direct and fairly obvious consequence of clearly written rules which
are in their published guidelines under the heading When To Recognize Revenue.
"Just wood."

------
GhotiFish
You know, I wanted to build a garden box for myself as well. I was unwilling
to because I didn't think I could do it right. I wanted to set it up on the
side of my deck, but what about weight? That's a fair amount of dirt, maybe
the weight might compromise the carrying capacity of the deck... Should I pre
drill holes for screws? What kinda screws? Is it a factor? I ask because if I
mess it up, and I have no idea what I'm doing so it's likely, I'll make a
huuuuuge and unsightly mess for me and my neighbours that I wont be able to
clean up without replacing things I damaged on my journey. That's more money,
and probably expensive help, and a huge headache, and embarrassment. Even if I
completely succeed in everything, how do I know this wont violate some strata
laws where I placed it, or maybe I'll violate some sort of building code
regulation. Maybe my deck already violates some building code regulation and
if I bring attention to it I'll lose my deck.

I think if you're telling yourself that nothing could go wrong, that you are
not very imaginative.

the same goes with servers,

the same goes with electricity,

the same goes with car repair.

It's just wood, except that the wood was treated with something toxic and now
your flowers are dead and you've got a big headache in your backyard.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
I used to have a good friend (I moved away) who was a carpenter. One of the
things he said that stayed with me the longest was "there's nothing I do that
the average Joe Homeowner can't. They're just paying me to get it right the
first time."

Try as I might, I simply can't wrap my head around what you say. I'm a pretty
imaginative guy but the thought of what could go wrong is rarely more than a
speedbump along the way. I honestly don't know how I could get anything done
otherwise.

~~~
mturmon
...and a garden box is a perfect example of a thing that can fail the first
couple of times without anyone caring much.

Wood is usually a very forgiving material, so it's pretty friendly to
experimentation.

------
araes
"Most people let mystery stop them"

I actually find this true in other fields, or domains as well. Its not so much
mystery in the more general case, but uncertainty.

For example, some people find talking to boards, or VC folks, or executive
officers terrifying, because of what I call uncertainty. This sense that
they're alien, or different, or not understandable. Unfortunately though,
they're just people, and they often respond the same way normal people respond
to things, just from a different background and set of needs / motivations.

Or, "I could start on my next project, but its so vast, and there is so much
complexity. What would I even do?" But, once de-constructed, and taken in bite
size pieces, each piece is knowable, and suddenly the uncertainty is gone.

Good, short piece of advice article.

------
galvanist
“It’s just wood” is also a great description of kale.

------
nlawalker
It's not mystery or even laziness that stops people like myself, it's the
consequences of screwing up. I'm happy to explore the mystery if I can afford
those consequences.

~~~
ronaldx
The consequences of screwing up _a vegetable patch_?

~~~
bluepnume
If you read between the lines, the article isn't about how anyone can build a
vegetable patch, it's about how anyone can build (or do) _anything_ , if they
can just figure out that it's possible.

~~~
ronaldx
If you read between the lines, I'm saying negative consequences are generally
a very poor excuse.

------
RKoutnik
Despite claiming I'm 'full stack', I've never done much in the design sphere.
Everything seemed so complicated. How do I pick fonts? What's a color scheme?
I've recently dived in and while it's complicated, it's entirely possible to
learn. People I've never met before were willing to spend 30min of their time
going through what I'd done and point out where I could improve.

Ask stupid questions* - you'll find many are willing to help out.

*After doing proper research, of course.

~~~
volune
I have never felt that a design was included in the idea of a full-stack
software engineer. that would be something id mention separately if I had the
skill.

~~~
jarin
It may not be expected, but it's definitely hoped for that you can at least
make something that isn't going to make your eyes bleed.

The nice thing is nowadays Bootstrap (maybe with a decent theme like Flat UI
or Ace Admin) will get you 90% of the way there. Very basic design knowledge
will get you the other 10%, and for anything past that you can hire a
designer.

~~~
mgkimsal
There's 'design' and there's 'graphic artist' \- sorry for the semantic
distinction. There's a lot of basic design you can get from BS or foundation
or whatever, and themes and such that all look nice. Coming up with specific
artwork to match it (logos, something beyond just typed fonts, etc) is
something I classify more as 'graphic art' work vs 'design'. It maybe be a
distinction without much of a difference to some, and maybe there's a better
way to phrase it, but it's a moderately important distinction in my head for
some reason.

------
XL5
This is so unbelievably important. Too many people are unwilling to learn how
to do the most basic of things to look after themselves.

We are intelligent and capable. We should act as such.

~~~
omegaworks
Specialization is actually one of the wonderful things that fall out of the
whole Adam Smith Wealth of Nations Capital system (its why we're not all
subsistence farmers). When someone can make something better / faster /
stronger then I can, it's a good idea for them to do it and not me.

That bed looks like it might not have been finished and sealed properly, he's
definitely not using the green-hued pretreated wood. It'll probably rot by the
end of the season.

~~~
ChrisClark
It's cedar, like the others have said, you should never use pressure treated
wood or any type of sealant in a vegetable garden.

I have a cedar raised garden I built 4 years ago. It rains 10 months out of
the year here and it's still going strong. No indication of any rot or
breaking down.

But your comment is important and shows the power of the internet though. If
you went to build a garden, you wouldn't just run out and buy pressure treated
wood because you know it lasts more. I'm sure you would take the time to
research it at least a little bit on the internet. You'd find this out within
the first 10 minutes and then go build yourself a great bed.

~~~
jarin
Also, even if it does break down after a year, you can just plop together a
new one.

It's just wood.

------
droob
I appreciate the sentiment, but in this case, it's not completely "just wood":

[http://npic.orst.edu/ingred/ptype/treatwood/gardenuse.html](http://npic.orst.edu/ingred/ptype/treatwood/gardenuse.html)

~~~
jarin
Treated wood also costs like twice as much. I know that as a guy trying to
just plop together a garden box I'd probably go for the cheapest wood that
doesn't look like it will fall apart right away.

~~~
prawn
Treated pine is cheap here in Australia though the treatment is not exactly
proven food safe.

Untreated will not last. Treated will potentially release chemicals into your
soil/food, though you can line the interior of your bed with gardening
plastic.

There are also slightly more expensive options for treated wood (branded
EcoWood and so on) that are a good option.

(I have seven 1.2x2.4m raised beds in my garden. Bring in fresh soil otherwise
you will get endless cycles of weeds - that's still one of my main problems
two years in.)

~~~
hdevalence
Well, untreated wood won't last, but --- "it's just wood", so you can build a
newer, better, one when it rots away.

~~~
prawn
Seems a bit wasteful to me, of the wood and time. I'd rather pay a little bit
more and build the thing once rather than be patching it up or replacing
later.

Untreated pine is also a risk when it comes to termites.

------
habosa
I had this sort of moment, and it's pushing me to want to learn to build real
things. Things I can hold.

I'm graduating from college and for my senior design project we can do almost
anything. One of my professors asked me and a few of my friends to build a
guitar-strummer for kids with severe cerebral palsy at a nearby school. We're
all bioengineers, and I study CS. We had never built anything more complicated
than a Lego.

After a few months, here's what we came up with:
[http://www.instructables.com/id/Musex/](http://www.instructables.com/id/Musex/)

It's pretty janky and it's something a mechanical engineer could whip up in a
week or two. But we learned a TON building it. There's so much I don't know. I
like building things on the computer because there's near-zero marginal cost
and you can always start right away. Having to think through a real design and
order/build parts really shed some light on getting things done beyond a mouse
and keyboard.

TL;DR - Go build something. It's very empowering.

------
Kronopath
The author here talks about demystifying the kinds of work that you don't
think you're capable of. He uses the example of handiwork and building things,
but it really goes beyond that—I think this is a really good attitude to take
to a lot of aspects of life.

Let me give a little personal context. Back when I was a teenager coming out
of high school, I was pretty averse to diving into subject matter that I
didn't feel comfortable with. I had exactly the same attitude the author
disparages here—that sort of "that's for _experts_ to deal with, not me" kind
of attitude.

But, out of a combined interest in both computers and general science, I ended
up entering an engineering degree that was highly general for the first two
years. This was the "advanced" sort of engineering stream at the
university—higher course loads, more material covered faster, and in areas
where I almost certainly wasn't going to be using to make a living. Like most
people here, I work in software these days, but during the generalist part of
the program I took everything from thermodynamics, to civil engineering, to
quantum mechanics, to fluid dynamics, to vector calculus, to molecular
biology, to electromagnetics, to material science, to statistics, to
electrical circuits, to... you get the picture.

I was not prepared for this in the least.

A lot of people asked me, "If you already know you have an interest in
computers, why are you putting yourself through this instead of going through
a standard computer science or computer engineering degree?" It was a question
I asked myself very often as well, to the point where I was at one point
strongly considering switching out. But I'm glad I didn't, because looking
back on it, the biggest thing I got out of it was not the broad scientific
background—I can barely remember much of the stuff from the more esoteric
courses I took—but the knowledge that I _could_ , in fact, learn these kinds
of things in a relatively quick timeframe. That these things were not eternal
mysteries, not the exclusive domain of "experts", and that I could, given
enough effort, understand them, at least decently enough to do my assignments
and pass the course.

I tried to keep this lesson in mind moving forward, and still try to keep it
today. In my last year, I signed up for a course on compilers, not because I
wanted to work on compilers but because I wanted to _demystify_ one of the
last things that still seemed mysterious in my day-to-day computer work. Once
I started working for a living, I read up on some basic personal finance so I
could manage my money properly. Last year, I was unsatisfied with the design
of my personal website, so I learned some basic color theory and typography
and redesigned it myself. These days, I've been learning Chinese[0]—something
most westerners balk at doing—out of personal interest, and the feeling of
walking down a street in Chinatown and suddenly realizing, _" Hey, I can make
out a bit of what's written on the signs now, whereas a few weeks ago it was
all incomprehensible hieroglyphics"_ is incredibly liberating.

So this post resonates with me pretty deeply. It's just wood. You shouldn't
believe that these things are beyond your grasp, because if you do it'll
become a self-fulfilling prophecy. This spirit of lifelong learning is
something I hope never leaves me. The day I stop learning will be the day I
die.

[0] As mentioned earlier here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7623418](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7623418)

~~~
asafira
I also feel the post resonates with me, but I've found drawbacks to these
things. In particular, I find that this attitude always makes me busy. Busy
watching online lectures, busy doing household maintenance, busy thinking
about whether an idea I've had is reasonable or not. Something non-trivial
always on my mind.

This busy-ness sort of strikes me for two reasons: 1) contrast from the
roommates I have and 2) being extrovert at heart, these things simply take
time away from socializing and paying more attention to the people I'm close
to. I try to find a good balance between "Tonight I think I'm gonna chip away
some more on Baysian networks" vs. "Tonight I think I'll sit back and watch a
movie with the roomies", but I feel like it's always a losing battle --- I'm
not on par with the level of attention either thing would ideally have. The
truth of the matter is, sure in this case "it's just wood" the whole project
probably didn't take a huge amount of time, but for most of the examples you
gave, for example, those certainly took quite a lot of your time, I'm sure.

So the question is this: is this curiosity combined with some ambition and
readiness for action really a virtue? Where do you draw the line? I appreciate
the obvious pros of "it's just wood", but at the same time, how do I decide
when it's right to just say "I'll just pass on spending time trying to
understand this, I want to put some more time in appreciating those around
me."

~~~
Kronopath
That's a good point. As with most things in life, it's always a balance. I'll
admit I'm more toward the introverted side of the spectrum, which probably
leads me to take more solitary time than someone like you. But it doesn't have
to take too much out of your life—the benefit of self-directed learning is
that since there's (typically) no deadline, you can take it at your own pace.
If that means the learning stretches on for months on end, that's ok. And you
can choose to go only as deep as you need to—the goal is not necessarily to
get a super-deep understanding of the topic, but to get enough of a taste of
it to demystify it. After you've touched on it, you can decide whether it's
worth it to go deeper. In my case, when I was studying typography and
design[0], I learned just enough that I could come up with a simple,
functional design for my website that I was satisfied with, and then I mostly
stopped.

It also helps if you can pick a topic that doesn't require large bursts of
uninterrupted time, something you can read up on when you have a spare moment
and are bored. Bayesian networks might not fit that mold, but things like
personal finance and Chinese can—the former I learned mostly from short
articles and looking up things I was unfamiliar with, and the latter is mostly
involving continued repetition of the vocabulary I have to memorize, in short
but frequent bursts. It can be powerful if you can make it a part of the
background radiation of your life.

Lastly, I do want to mention that the two don't have to be mutually exclusive.
Part of the reason I've been learning Chinese is for the sake of coming closer
to those around me.

In the end, it's your life. You get to choose how you spend your time. But
it's definitely not a black-and-white choice.

[0] Mostly from
[http://practicaltypography.com/](http://practicaltypography.com/) and
assorted blog posts.

------
jmspring
The article is a fun read. What I find most interesting for me is that the
author needed the nudge to make the leap from "I want to buy X" to "I can
build X".

Maybe it is just how I was brought up (and the friends I had around me), but
myself and a few of my close friends all bought our houses around the same
time. We've all done most of the non-annoying work ourselves (electrical,
plumbing, tiling, leveling floors/the house, replacing joists, etc). Some of
this we learned from our parents or older mentors, some from one another. We
also trade labor/help. (Annoying work would be things like refinishing floors,
insulation, roofing, etc).

The group of friends is a mix of software people, a retired fire fighter, a
geologist, etc. When we bought our houses, money wasn't there to pay someone
to do the work and we liked doing such. As we've gotten older/more
established, some things are worth paying not to do (a new gas line run, for
instance).

The fact remains, though, most of the things one needs to deal with in a
typical day/month/year domestically, you can do yourself. Sometimes the
convenience to pay someone makes sense, sometimes the risk of not being
comfortable (or maybe not mechanically inclined) is too great, but there are
things we pass on to others to do regularly that we can probably do ourselves.
Sometimes those things can be quite rewarding/fulfilling.

When I bought my house, my dad helped me with replacing all the rusted out
galv with copper. He had to head out before things were done. A couple of
fittings remained in tight spaces next to very old / dry wood. I did get an
appraisal on finishing off some of these; having a couple of plumbers who
played up the difficulty and then give a big estimate motivated me to get over
my discomfort. I read up on the right way to do things and was extremely
careful (and successful) in the endeavor.

------
zb
That's a great looking planter bed, nice work! Some things aren't nearly as
hard as people think - I took a similar approach to building an actual bed a
few months back:

[http://kiwiandpeach.com/2014/03/20/build-your-own-king-
slat-...](http://kiwiandpeach.com/2014/03/20/build-your-own-king-slat-bed/)

It really is just wood. And fasteners. Also fasteners.

------
josephschmoe
The problem with relying on HN for your comments is that it's time limited. I
went through your backlog of posts and found one I wanted to comment on, "The
mathematics of team productivity" but found myself unable to do so.

Personally, I disagree with your point about multipliers. The engineers that
multiply aren't the superstar engineers. They're the ones in the background.
They make parts to share with others. They care about architecture and doing
things the right way. They do the work that will never, ever make them look
like a superstar, because all it does is help other people make widgets. But
without it, everyone would have had to make their own solution - or worse,
kicked the can down the road. These people, humble or quiet as they are, are
increasing the productivity of everyone else on their level.

Examples of this kind of work: Improving task management systems, making GUI
libraries for the entire team to use, etc.

------
brc
A timely article for me. I'm spending my first day sitting a custom-made
sit/stand desk. Tailored to fit exactly in the spot it was designed for, with
shelving designed to fit exactly what I wanted. With monitor height at the
optimimum for my height and correct posture. Even with a couple of design
flourishes I added _and_ a custom designed headset hanger.

Granted this is not my first rodeo with woodwork, but the thought of getting a
store-bought one-size-fits-all desk was never even considered. I even got to
spend many hours in the workshop with my Dad, intermittently discussing the
design, tools and approaches with life in general and hearing stories from a
time gone by. It's immensely satisfying.

And people see it and go 'wow, how do you even build something like that?'
Well, first you start with a pile of wood and a design on a piece of paper...
trust me, it's a doddle compared with writing code.

------
fmavituna
Isn't it a better choice to focus on what you do, make lots of money then
spend extra money to get "exactly" what you want instead of learning stuff
because you want to do one thing.

How is this any different than buying a component instead of building one
yourself. Just because it'll be slightly cheaper, better etc.

I get it if you are after the fun and I totally agree no need to be afraid,
it's just wood.

However why bother if you just want to get results. Just spend $300 on
craiglist or something and someone will make it for you, and will be better
than yours.

I also do understand in early years of life / career it's good to learn many
things without going too deep, but later in life it's pretty much not worth it
unless you want to switch to something new, or just to have fun (than it's
just hobby).

If you just want to get results there are better ways.

------
dodders
Seriously, you don't need a youtube video to explain how to replace a light
switch. A screwdriver and a decent amount of curiosity will get you a long
way.

Plus knowing where the fuse box is, of course...

~~~
jarin
Well, I mean it's probably good to watch the YouTube video anyway in case you
don't know about turning off the fuse box. Might seem obvious in that case,
but when you're just learning something you don't know what you don't know
yet. Good to at least find out if there's anything that might kill you.

------
shawndrost
I'm a cofounder at Hack Reactor, which this article mentions kindly but with
some healthy skepticism surrounding our reported success metrics. If you're
curious about how we compute that number, you can read more here:
[http://www.quora.com/Hack-Reactor/What-are-some-suspected-
re...](http://www.quora.com/Hack-Reactor/What-are-some-suspected-reasons-why-
some-Hack-Reactor-graduates-the-2-are-unable-to-find-software-engineering-
jobs-upon-graduation)

------
colechristensen
I see a lot of positive reactions here, but reading this is almost upsetting
to me.

Do we really live in a world where it's a profound realization that a person
can screw four boards together in a rectangle to make a garden bed?

This is some real top level science fiction stuff where society seems so
crippled that an average person can't think to solve the simplest problem
without buying a solution. Surely it must not be true.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
We kinda do live in that world, but I think the HN demographics make it seem
worse than it really is. People, especially programmers with tons of
disposable income, are used to just buying stuff. Even the ones who think of
themselves as "makers:" it's not what they normally make.

That frame of mind is as alien to me as it apparently is to you: I grew up
around people who just made what they needed to in order to get by with
minimal money. Having a professional carpenter as head of household didn't
hurt either.

------
eps
On the other hand, the fact that he was ready to buy pre-made garden bed is
the reason why we have all these regex-as-a-service startups.

It might be just wood, but then people are just lazy.

------
mempko
Damn, I did the exact same thing. I built a raised bd without any experience
in that sort of thing. I guess I should have blogged about it.

------
mhartl
What resources did you use to learn to turn wood into a raised garden bed? Or
was it so simple that you just figured it out on your own?

------
larrys
I think what is lost today, with the ability on youtube to see how to do
everything, is a common sense and old school approach of the way things used
to be done. That is, by thinking about it and trying to figure it out without
knowing exactly how.

The other day I was helping my wife assemble something for a school project
for the kids. While I am not a woodworker (and have never taken a course, read
books or watched videos) I am able just using common sense to put something
together and figure it out and have a workable problem solving piece of wood
object [1].

My wife insisted on telling me what the guy at the Home Depot and the
instructions said we needed as far as size of screws or wood but I saw it
differently, visually, as far as what would hold the wood together to solve
the problem. It was much easier for me that way. Later I described that we
probably would want to counter sink the screws as well and did that by simply
taking a larger drill bit and drilling a bit after a pilot hole.

After starting this I decided to do a youtube search out of curiosity and
found video in great detail and somewhat lengthily describing how to counter
sink a screw in wood and how there was a special bit just to do that. While
that amount of info and detail might be needed by a professional making
furniture (and actually I don't even think that is the case if you are good
you can usually make do with much less) my approach worked fine and I saved
time by not having to remember all these excess details that really (imo)
weren't needed.

I sometimes wonder if people who have grown up in the youtube era (or the era
of having everything a click away) are somehow going to be disadvantaged by
not having to spend much time thinking of solutions to problems and making
mistakes and learning from them. [2]

[1] An example of this would be the jigs I built for a battery backup system I
did many years ago using heavy industrial batteries. I need a pad to rest the
150lb batteries on as well as a dolly to move the batteries. I just winged it
and built something that ended up working pretty well out of 2x4's. Much
easier than following instructions actually. I also built the wiring between
batteries by going to an auto parts store and a bunch of other things to make
a workable battery backup system for way less than a traditional UPS. Would
run the equipment for about 24 hours (6 150lb industrial batteries in parallel
hooked up to an inverter and line conditioner. Figured that one out, tested
worked for about 8 to 10 years and never had any down time).

[2] Today when you need to know syntax you do a search and the answer is
there. Back in olden days you had a book or two and maybe a manual and you
could iterate for hours trying to figure out which command line option (using
Unix as the example here) actually did what you needed.

~~~
dfc

      > While that amount of info and detail might be needed by a professional
      > making furniture (and actually I don't even think that is the case
      > if you are good you can usually make do with much less) my approach
      > worked fine and I saved time by not having to remember all these excess
      > details that really (imo) weren't needed.
    
    

You think countersinking screws is sufficient if not overboard for
professional furniture? Quality joinery is not done with screws. If you think
you saved time taking the bit out, putting it down somewhere safe/accessible,
swapping the bigger one in, realiging drill and going slow enough to have a
consistent depth you are crazy. Those coutersink bits are a giant time saver.
The

~~~
larrys
"Quality joinery is not done with screws."

I wasn't doing quality joinery. It was part of a school project for children.

"If you think you saved time taking the bit out, putting it down somewhere
safe/accessible, swapping the bigger one in"

I have 3 drills. So I didn't have to swap any bits at all.

I have plenty of tools. I just didn't have a countersink bit. I also took into
account the quality needed for what I was building. It wasn't furniture.

~~~
dfc
I realize you were throwing something together with your wife. When
"describing countersunk screws" is presented as insightful it is clear we are
not discussing professional work. But when you said "While that amount of info
and detail might be needed by a professional making furniture (and actually I
don't even think that is the case if you are good you can usually make do with
much less)" you were talking about professional furniture.

I do not understand how/why you are making statements about professional
woodworking. It does not seem like you have any idea about what it takes to
keep a professional shop in business. It was hard enough during the boom and
now that a lot of that custom work has dried up it is even harder. There is a
reason why one jackrabbit bit is $45: Clipping one drill to your belt and
grabbing the other is a waste of time AND it is not consistent. Wasting time
like that is deadly for a professional shop even the places that can charge a
premium for "artisanal/handcrafted" work.

There are a handful of shops that do have to worry about assembly line
production speeds, but they have names like Sam Maloof attached to them. And
lets face it Maloof did not win a Genius Grant double fisting Dewalts.

    
    
      > I have three drills
    

Awesome, you must be pro.

------
synesso
"It's just wood" is nowhere near enough information to stop me making a
complete mess of a job like that.

~~~
jarin
Well I guess you do need to know what a 90° angle and nails are, too.

I mean, you're not building a four-lane bridge here. If it can hold dirt for a
growing season you're all set.

------
bryanthompson
tl;dr: I got over whatever block I had and built a table & benches I'd been
planning for years.

In High School, I really enjoyed shop class... after graduation, I bought
random small tools and handled some household work, but always had some mental
block about going out and buying wood and big tools to build the things I
really wanted to tackle. The first project I wanted to take on was to build a
replica of the picnic table my grandfather built about 90 years ago. I
remember sitting with him at that table many afternoons, planning projects,
talking about cars, life, etc. So, this table means a lot to me and even
though I've taken care of it, the years have caught up and it is rotting away.

I built a Sketchup model of the table in its exact form, then I made a copy
and started making minor upgrades (I think he'd approve). Here's the original
table along with one of the benches, along with what the updated version is
going to look like:
[http://cl.ly/image/2a2T0S1W280r](http://cl.ly/image/2a2T0S1W280r)
[http://cl.ly/image/1j2q3P2d3V2X](http://cl.ly/image/1j2q3P2d3V2X)

There _is_ a certain process and inherent knowledge that people who shop for
things like wood, tools, supplies, etc., just inherently know that seem like
huge hurdles for nerds like us. It's "just wood" just like it's "just typing"
for us. When we're rude to a n00b, think about what "old timer" thinks of you
going into his parts store or lumber yard in your khakis asking about stuff
you don't know about. MOST of them are encouraging and want to share their
knowledge, but it's really up to us as newbies to take initiative and learn
how things work.

I had an opportunity last month to buy some shop tools (table, radial arm,
band saw, sanding equipment), so I decided to finally give it a real shot.

First, I got the equipment set up and watched dozens of youtube videos about
each piece of equipment - from keeping them clean and working well to
calibrating every possible alignment & went to work making sure they were all
perfect.

Next, I bought a set of precision rulers, protractors, etc., and made some
practice cuts on scrap wood I had in the house/garage/etc.

Finally, it was time to buy wood. I must have watched 25 youtube videos about
not just buying wood, but learning about the various cuts and ratings of wood.
All very interesting, and I felt like I could at least identify a good bit of
lumber from the bad, and it helped to catch up on some of the terminology &
etiquette of the lumberyard. To make a long part of the story short - if you
walk into a Lowes or any real lumber yard wearing shop-looking clothes and are
carrying a notebook & pen, nobody's going to bother you. You can spend all the
time you want looking over the selection, noting prices, etc. Seriously, this
was a major milestone for me to realize. I ALWAYS feel rushed when I'm in a
store... there was something different and nice about taking time to pick
through and find the wood I thought was going to be great. Of course, if you
do this, don't make a mess and put everything back the way you found it.

Another hurdle was that I didn't think (at first) I could fit lumber in my
car. I drive a crossover and discovered that the passenger seat folds flat,
leaving plenty of room for 8' lumber. I can fit 10' in diagonally if I let it
touch the dash. You might be surprised what you can fit in your car when you
fold the seats down & give it a measure.

Anyway, with the wood all loaded up, I got home and started planning my cuts.
I printed the sketchup model and started documenting everything - making notes
of how I can get the most of each board, figuring out which order I should
tackle them in, how I'd arrange the mounting bits, etc. Honestly, I probably
spent 5 minutes planning for every 30 seconds of cutting. I don't know if
that's normal, but it was actually kindof exciting to make some cuts, get out
the protractor, and find that I was dead on with what the model said I should
be.

I wrote WAY more than I expected. This particular post and topic really hit me
though. Here are some more pics of the work - I have most of the table
completed and ready for assembly. The benches are finished & ready to be
sealed, though. They came out pretty well, especially for my first project.

[http://cl.ly/image/3z2C2F072M1K](http://cl.ly/image/3z2C2F072M1K)
[http://cl.ly/image/0Q06180Q2y3q](http://cl.ly/image/0Q06180Q2y3q)
[http://cl.ly/image/2U3f3q1n2Y1W](http://cl.ly/image/2U3f3q1n2Y1W)
[http://cl.ly/image/1Y3d0l123L35](http://cl.ly/image/1Y3d0l123L35)
[http://cl.ly/image/1X410N281K11](http://cl.ly/image/1X410N281K11)
[http://cl.ly/image/3g2k3j3f3E1P](http://cl.ly/image/3g2k3j3f3E1P)

~~~
dfc
Looks nice. Make sure you whack off a one inch triangle from the corners of
the legs. This will make them WAY less wobbly. I apologize the ASCII art is
not the best. Hopefully this gets the idea across:

    
    
           Currently          Desired
    
          /      /           /      /
         /      /           /      /
        /      /           /      /
       /______/        /\  \_____/
    
                       ^
                      See the missing corner.

~~~
rrrhys
Why would this make a difference? I assume you are talking about the face that
will contact the ground having a corner nipped off it.

Could you explain the reasoning?

~~~
dfc
This is not something I reasoned out in my bedroom. It is knowledge passed on
from someone to me who learned it from someone else and then reinforced during
my own experience. The next time you see some outdoor furniture, picnic table,
adirondack chair, etc take a peak at the feet. Then give it a wiggle and for
bonus points pick it up and move/rotate it five or six inches. The obvious
answer is that the smaller leg means that you you do not need to find as large
of a flat area for the leg to stand on. It means that the leg can rest inside
of a little divot on your lawn. In addition to reducing wobble it makes it
less likely that someone stubs their toe and trips on the corner, but I am
less sold on that one.

More importantly, _it is just wood, go try it yourself._ If you don't have the
saw blade on a SAK/leatherman and a piece of scrap wood try scissors and a
spaghetti box or a couple of pieces cardboard taped together. "Learning"
something from a comment by that ornery dude on HN is not the same thing as
seeing it in practice.

------
dfc
Raised beds are to woodworking as early 00s html is to programming.

------
michaelochurch
Sometimes I feel like I had the bizarre privilege (and, yes, I do count it as
such, if only because I value diversity in experience) of growing up in the
Dark Ages... and I'm not that old (born in 1983).

Up to about 15 years ago, people had to just accept not knowing things that
are now easy to find on the Internet. If, to use one of the OP's examples, you
had to fix a light switch, you had to call someone who knew, or figure it out
through (expensive and sometimes dangerous) trial and error.

As humans, we're actually becoming much more knowledgable as time progresses.
Calculus used to be approached in the 3rd or 4th year of an undergraduate math
major; now, people get their first exposure in high school, if not before. The
average quality of knowledge among people who've "seen calculus" is probably
lower, but the bulk number is much higher, and the curve seems to be improving
on the whole distribution.

I'm actually pretty curious to see what attitudes people born around now
(who'll have had iPads or similar products for 15 years by age 18) end up
having to education and knowledge. We came of age in a time when it was usual
to tolerate _not knowing_ a great deal of stuff. They have a lot more access.
Are they going to have a great deal more confidence, or will they succumb
instead to apathy as they take it for granted?

~~~
larrys
I'm a fair bit older than you are and remember thinking when the internet came
about that I had lost a big advantage over other people since I was someone
that was always really good at self teaching and figuring out how to do things
given the lack of information out there. (Exactly what you said above
basically).

When you were barely in pre-school I learned on my own how to fly a gas style
rc helicopter (a 60 size which is big) back when if you crashed it you had to
rebuild it. And you did crash it. Now I have an electric heli that I can fly
in my outer office and it can crash into the wall and not even get damaged.
[1][2] The ability to learn like that is amazing. It's almost to easy. The gas
heli would chew itself up when it crashed. It was also very expensive (about
$2,000 in 80's dollars).

Anyway my fear of losing an advantage was not really correct. Things did
change. But today the game seems to be "to much information" and deciding what
to learn and what opportunities to take advantage of both business and mental.

I won't even get into how dating has changed since prior to the internet.

[1] (Not to mention all the how to videos on the entire subject in addition to
electric (didn't exist back then) and greatly falling prices).

[2] Add: And of course all the gyros and electronics that today practically
fly the craft themselves didn't exist. I did have one gyro for the tail but
you typically self corrected that with the stick anyway on takeoff.

