
The Domain Market is a Mess - spencerfry
http://spencerfry.com/the-domain-market-is-a-mess
======
larrys
" (2) the domain transfer market is terrible and ripe for someone smart to
wreak havoc on the existing players."

The only thing that could wreak havoc on the existing system (which has
multiple players) is hiring a consultant who is knowledgeable about this in
order to help you navigate the obvious bullshit that anyone will encounter
when purchasing a domain name.

For people who deal with this type of thing all that the OP has described is
often anticipated and is worked around.

For example I had a case recently with buying a name (for someone) where the
seller told me that "the transfer has to be done with godaddy that's the only
way that escrow.com works". For someone who doesn't know "how it works"
unraveling (and getting the seller to change their opinion) would take many
phone calls to get to the point of being able to simply get the auth code to
transfer the name to the registrar of their choice (which is not godaddy).

There is not a technology answer to this issue. It's a knowledge and people
answer.

That said if anyone thinks they have a way to disrupt this I would be glad to
hear about it and tell them what I thought about it (based on my 18 years
approx in this business.)

~~~
will_brown
>That said if anyone thinks they have a way to disrupt this I would be glad to
hear about it and tell them what I thought about it (based on my 18 years
approx in this business.)

I see the problem as follows: Buyer/OP found and purchased the domain from a
broker/escrow agent/middle-man, as a result the buyer was subjected to the
additional time required for seller to transfer the domain to broker/escrow
agent/middle-man.

Solution: Once the domain was transferred to broker/escrow agent/middle-man it
appears the buyer had the domain a few hours later. Therefore, the
broker/escrow agent/middle-man could require all domain listings be
transferred to their account upfront. In theory after the payment, the buyer
will have the domain within hours with no need to rely on the seller. Perhaps
the only downside is the seller agreeing to an exclusive listing, but there is
nothing prohibiting a system where the seller could cancel the sale and
request the domain be return prior to any closing.

~~~
larrys
"for seller to transfer the domain to broker/escrow agent/middle-man"

Well to start domains aren't transferred to these parties these parties merely
facilitate the transfer by way of others that have a stake for one reason or
another.

Perhaps it's best to state how this typically works.

a) A person owns a domain b) A person may be acting as a broker or middleman
for some reason on that domain. c) There is the current "old" registrar of the
domain. d) There is the new registrar that the new owner wants to transfer to.
e) c&d may or may not be the same company. f) There may be an escrow service,
say escrow.com in between. Purpose to make sure the right thing happens and
the ownership is actually transferred.

If Dave is the buyer, Joe is the broker, and Jane is the seller, Godaddy is
the existing registrar and namecheap is the registrar that Dave (buyer) wants
to use, here is what should happen.

1) Joe gets the auth code from Jane or Dave gets the auth code from Jane etc.
2) Joe or Dave gives the auth code to Namecheap. 3) Namecheap gets the name
transferred over from Godaddy (I'll skip the exact details on that part for
simplicity). Much happens here obviously to make this actually happen. 4) Both
buyer and seller agree the transaction is "ok" and the escrow company releases
the money to the seller.

------
shiftpgdn
Not to be mean but not understanding how domain name transfers work doesn't
make things "a mess". This is "a mess" because you dealt with a big slow
company as a middle-man. If you had contacted the seller directly you could
have moved the domain between two GoDaddy accounts in a matter of minutes or
off to another registrar within a few hours using the standard ICANN transfer
method.

~~~
slig
By using a middleman, he know that he won't get scammed: either he get the
domain, or the money back.

Also, in his case, the price was fixed. Should he email the owner directly,
the owner can ask for a different price based on who asked (i.e, if you're
well known, a simple google search can be useful to see who you are and if
you're likely to buy at a higher price 499 vs 4999.)

~~~
larrys
"By using a middleman, he know that he won't get scammed: either he get the
domain, or the money back."

That is actually the point of using an escrow service such as escrow.com for
domain transactions. Escrow.com in essence makes sure each party has the
proper outcome.

"the owner can ask for a different price based on who asked"

Nothing prevents the owner, when dealing with a middleman, from taking
advantage of the buyer even with Sedo in between.

At a certain point in the transfer process with SEDO the new owner of the
domain is revealed. Nothing to prevent the seller from deciding to not sell
the domain. Doesn't even matter what the legal status is. Fact is nobody is
going to sue over some small amount of money. [1]

Let's say you own "slig.com" domain. You decide to sell it by way of SEDO. You
list it for $2500 which you think is a good price. Then you see (later on)
that Facebook is the buyer. You decide "hmm maybe I should not sell it" and
you find some way to get out of the deal knowing that facebook probably isn't
going to file a lawsuit to get the domain but will most likely decide to give
you more money and just be done with it.

~~~
andrewchoi
Exactly; my first thought when reading the article was an escrow service.
Reducing counterparty risk is exactly what they were designed for, right?

------
bhartzer
>> I immediately submitted my information, thinking that I’d get the domain
name pushed to my account later that day. Instead it took twenty days.

There's no way that it should taken 20 days, that's just totally unacceptable.
And as someone who buys and sells lots of domains on a regular basis, I can
tell you that this is not the norm, it's unusual for it to take this long.

One thing that you probably didn't check was whether or not the domain name
was listed for sale at other venues. If the domain you wanted (based on a
whois lookup) was at GoDaddy, then most likely it would have been listed at
GoDaddy as many sellers will list their domains on several sites.

~~~
spencerfry
Looking to see if the domain is listed with the registrar as well is a really
great tip. I didn't check to see if it was in GoDaddy's marketplace before
purchasing it through Sedo. Next time I'll do that if I find myself in the
same position.

------
snide
The problem with this kind of stuff is that it's a middleman business, much
like selling a house. You're working with sedo, thinking they have control
over the domain, but all they're doing is selling it for the owner. It's up to
the owner to make the actual move and sometimes an interest in a domain just
brings up a reluctance to sell.

Other times I've had great, easy service with sedo and other sellers.

Last domain I sold was notify.me, which was I thought an amazing domain.
Wonder what will happen with it.

~~~
bhartzer
snide, it doesn't have to be 'middleman' business. I mean, why not contact the
domain owner directly and deal with them rather than giving money to a
middleman? If Spencer had done that, then most likely he could have used an
escrow service like escrow.com and the transaction would have gone much
smoother.

My experience as Sedo, even as a seller, has been slow, as once I submit a
message, it takes a day for Sedo to respond.

~~~
snide
It's not always an option.

------
paul_f
The story would have been far more interesting if the OP had shared details of
what his business was, what words they tried and the domain they eventually
settled on and bought. What would the downside be? the domain has already been
acquired.

------
mox1
Regardless of the actual product, I can't help but think the $495 dollars he
spent purchasing a domain name would have been better spent by picking an
available domain name (..what $20) and putting the other $475 into Google
Adwords , SEO, etc.

It's just a name, if your idea is really that great, just make up a verbish
type name that doesn't exist and use it.

~~~
joelrunyon
$470 isn't going to buy you much "SEO" \- certainly nothing that will move the
needle.

~~~
hagbardgroup
Similarly, it's nothing more than a test campaign's worth of ad groups on
Adwords. It'll barely buy an 1/8th page ad on a random day of a local
newspaper.

$500 also doesn't pay for a professional naming service. That can cost upwards
of $10k, sometimes much more because it gets bid up by people like P&G who
need new names all the time. You can always rename and buy a better domain
when you become successful enough to afford it.

------
hopfog
Instead of looking up domain names on Domain Tools I would recommend something
like [https://instantdomainsearch.com/](https://instantdomainsearch.com/).
It's using DNS queries so sometimes a taken domain name without any DNS
records will show as available but that's a small trade-off considering the
speed gain. It also enables you to do some invaluable brainstorming which is
impossible using a submit-and-wait lookup.

Another tool I'm using frequently is
[http://www.leandomainsearch.com/](http://www.leandomainsearch.com/)
(originally a Show HN) where you put in a word and it will look up thousands
of popular pre and suffix combinations in a second. The same DNS constraints
applies but it's easy to click the domain name to see if it's really
available.

~~~
darkrabbi
came here to recommend this site, a few more to add:

[http://www.panabee.com/](http://www.panabee.com/)
[http://www.namestation.com/](http://www.namestation.com/)

~~~
adambard
I made one for peoples' names, although you could use it similarly to others
mentioned: [http://yourpersonaldotcom.com/](http://yourpersonaldotcom.com/)

------
Befittd
I'm amazed that this provocative title hasn't thrown up any discussion about
the truly broken part of this system - the fact that people who buy and sell
domains with no intention of ever using them even exist. It's a modern day
tragedy of the commons - a public resource that anyone lacking a moral compass
can profit from at the expense of the people who actually want to produce
something valuable with it.

~~~
stfu
I always have the same feelings when I go to the central market. All those
people owning houses and running low profit businesses. This is so unfair. I
would be much better owning them. This system is so unfair!

~~~
Befittd
I imagine this is trolling, but nonetheless: it's not so much about it being
unfair, as it being horribly inefficient. It's a completely arbitrarily
defined market over which we (strictly, ICANN) have total control. In your
central market the only person who stands to lose out from any inefficiency is
the owner of the property, who could get more money by selling it to you, if
you truly could make more money from it than they could. In this market anyone
can buy a new domain name, so it's not unfair, but the rules of the market
have been defined such that people profit from it without providing any value.
I'm not complaining about it, I'm merely suggesting that it's an opportunity
to increase market efficiency - it's not a trivial problem but our current
solutions to it seem very poor. A service, for example, that would hunt out
truly great domain names for a particular purpose, buy them and then sell them
on at a profit _having helped the purchaser find them_ would be providing
great value, but if the process is "search for your own domain name and then
purchase it from whoever previously thought of it", it's a bit disappointing.

~~~
notahacker
Domain speculators do "provide value" to ICANN in the form of annual
registration fees, which they pay ICANN irrespective of whether any end user
wants that domain [in that year]. They "provide value" to buyers in
relinquishing ownership of a good they wanted more last time it went on sale;
same as any other secondary market transaction. Sure, ICANN could be "more
efficient" and charge premium prices on some domains, but the only thing worse
than being gouged by speculators is being gouged by a monopolist.

I can't see why the existence of domain speculators prevents people from
profiting from "helping purchasers find" names, if there's really a
substantial value add in having imagination and the ability to use a WHOIS
search.

~~~
lazylizard
i wonder. how much of wanting a specific domain name is vanity and how much of
it is stats/market research/etc? is being more flexible/imaginative with one's
domain name really that painful? do people advertise their web business on tv
or radio that often? i find it hard to imagine typing in full urls everytime i
visit a site..theres auto complete and theres google and there're links..

------
jabgrabdthrow
Our site is too WIP for any publicity but I can't help but plug this here...
Domain namespaces should have automatic global price discovery:
[http://dotp2p.io](http://dotp2p.io)

------
ca98am79
flippa.com is also a great place to get some good domains:

[https://flippa.com/buy-domains](https://flippa.com/buy-domains)

However because it is an auction site, they may not currently have listed what
you are looking for. They also recently started a domain "catalog" which is
not auction-style, but there aren't many listings yet:

[https://flippa.com/domain-catalogs/listings](https://flippa.com/domain-
catalogs/listings)

------
joelrunyon
What was the domain?

~~~
bhartzer
Joel, one can look up the domains that he owns by searching Google with this
query: site:whois.domaintools.com "site owner"

Where the "site owner" is someone's name. You can also use this same search
and use someone's email address, as well. Or any of the data that shows up in
whois, such as an address.

~~~
dshanahan
Cool little trick. Thx.

------
ufmace
Sounds like most of the problem was trying to buy in .com. Is .com really that
much of a boost over some of the other popular TLDs?

~~~
rschmitty
Mainstream public, the other TLDs are not popular at all. Especially true when
you don't include the www. as part of the url.

Internet audience sure, not as big of a deal (but still a deal).

I'm sure as each year goes by and older people die out/adapt .com won't be
that big of deal

------
ca98am79
yes, sedo and afternic suck - I have had transactions stalled and abandoned
there, also.

The best way to buy domains is to do it directly. After negotiating a deal, I
have used escrow.com many times and it works great.

------
bachback
DNS is a mess - it's like politicians and marketing guys designing the web.

