
30 Years Ago, Romania Deprived Thousands of Babies of Human Contact - Red_Tarsius
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/07/can-an-unloved-child-learn-to-love/612253/
======
bad_user
This is a direct result of Ceaușescu banning abortions in comunist România in
his infamous decree 770 from 1966, in an effort to grow the population.

This was a huge social experiment the pro-life vs pro-choice debaters can
learn from.

If you want to see a documentary on the subject this is a good one:
[https://youtu.be/ZgZJ-IV8Et0](https://youtu.be/ZgZJ-IV8Et0)

~~~
dmos62
Did anyone notice how pro-life and pro-choice are arbitrary terms? E.g. I'm in
favor of free abortions, because I value life and unplanned children willl
have a negative effect on it, so I'm pro-life; or, I'm in favor of outlawing
abortions, because I think that we should concentrate on making the right
choices in situations that lead up to pregnancy, so I'm pro-choice.

I guess "life" and "choice" are just references to things that the respective
partisans bring up when arguing. Which would imply that my argument above is
wrong: it's not about accurately describing a social situation, but about
giving an argument a short name.

Which has a problem of its own. It's limiting. It implies that if you're
against abortions, then that's because of the validity of some "life"
argument, or the invalidity of some "choice" argument. Over time, it probably
makes the debates stupider.

Why give names to arguments (pro-choice, pro-life)? Why not just say pro-
abortion, anti-abortion? Because you want to appeal to peoples' preexisting
biases? If that's the case, it's a bad attitude towards debate.

~~~
s1t5
The terms aren't arbitrary, they're used and propagated deliberately to turn
as social issue into a political one. Using a term like "pro-life" creates a
false dichotomy which leads to the false and simplistic conclusion that if you
oppose pro-life then you must be anti-life.

> Why not just say pro-abortion, anti-abortion?

Because almost no one is "pro-abortion". It's a horrible and traumatic
experience to go through and no one is happy to have one. That doesn't mean
that women shouldn't have the option to do it. That's why pro-choice works
better - it's just more descriptive of the actual issue.

~~~
tarsinge
The term "pro-life" may creates a false dichotomy when put in that way, but if
you think at it as the crux of the argument not so much. Case in point you
kind of miss it in your last sentence and have it in the opposite: if a foetus
is a life (i.e. a person) from day one, then it follows women shouldn't have a
choice (because it's not their body anymore, in that context, like a weirdness
of nature that a different person with normal rights inhabits a mother's
body). They are not saying it will lead to a happy experience either to raise
that child, but that's an unfortunate consequence of the "life" argument,
hence "life vs choice". Edit: But I agree it's not a good way to frame the
debate, "Person at conception vs Person at X weeks/months" would be more
relevant to each side position IMO.

~~~
Fargren
> if a foetus is a life (i.e. a person) from day one, then it follows women
> shouldn't have a choice

This is not the case. Even if the foetus is a human person, body autonomy
tells us that no person should be forced to give up their own bodily well
being in ensure the survival of someone else.

Let's say that a person needs a kidney or they will day, would it be OK to
force the only compatible donor to donate his because he can survive without
it? If not, how is it fine to force a woman to go through nine months of
pregnancy? Pregnancy and birth can be harmful to the body, and even put the
mother's life at risk.

It's common to say that the "pro-life vs. pro-choice" debate is all about
whether the foetus is a person of not, but that's a misdirect. You can resolve
that question and still find yourself trying to solve essentially the trolley
problem.

~~~
ekianjo
> Let's say that a person needs a kidney or they will day, would it be OK to
> force the only compatible donor to donate his because he can survive without
> it? If not, how is it fine to force a woman to go through nine months of
> pregnancy?

Thats a pretty terrible analogy. Getting pregnant is not something you cannot
avoid. That would assume that people have no responsibility in their current
condition.

~~~
Fargren
I come from a country were people are still often denied abortions after being
raped, so maybe my perspective is a biased (though the laws say they should be
allowed). But even in other cases, I assume if a person is looking for an
abortion they didn't expect to get pregnant, so I can hardly say that they
_chose_ to get pregnant. If someone gets pregnant because of lack of education
or faulty birth control products, I really find it hard to say they are
entirely responsible for the pregnancy.

~~~
wolco
It is entirely their responsiblity. There is a reason why most
societies/religions encourages only sex after marriage. To engage in sex
before marriage then blame the birth control products or lack of an education
doesn't really add up.

The rape pregency is a different matter. Before safe abortions the mother had
the baby and treated it as an innocent child. Some would be given up for
adoption. Some societies force the rapist to pay. No society killed the baby
when it was born.

------
WarOnPrivacy
>"The state can take better care of your child than you can"

The products of autocratic governments are depressingly predictable.

Ostensibly, atrocities like this are done for the people - and yet, they are
completely devoid of humanity.

~~~
throwaway_pdp09
Leaving out autocracy, yes they can. If you had a childhood like some, you'd
understand that parents are not always disneyfied cuddle-machines you may have
experienced. In those cases the state under some circumstances can (can;
definitely not will, it depends on the state) do better.

More widely I wish people (like you) would not generalise their reasonably
happy childhoods onto others. I'm glad you had what others do not, but don't
assume it's a universal.

~~~
rubidium
It’s true that there are some very bad parents. It’s also true that no state
run system has been as good as biological or adoptive parents for the vast
majority of children... even those with negligent parents.

Only in extreme cases does one bad (taking a child away from parent figures)
justify removing them and putting them in a state run system (another bad).
There’s certainly a place for that, but it’s at the extremes.

Many would like to claim that the state should raise kids. That’s a stance
that does great harm to parents and children alike.

~~~
throwaway_pdp09
> Many would like to claim that the state should raise kids

"Many"? Justify that. I've never heard anyone make such a broad and foolish
generalisation.

> ...There’s certainly a place for that, but it’s at the extremes.

That's exactly what I'm saying, that those extremes do exist and need to be
considered. I never suggested it generally. I was careful not to.

------
smnscu
Wife gave birth to our first son ~8 years ago in Romania at a public hospital
in Bucharest. Not only the experience was harrowing for her (too much shit to
go through and most of it sounds like a bad joke), but yes, this still happens
today - they take the baby away from the mom immediately and you only get to
see it between specific times during the day.

------
thdrdt
In my opinion the article is way to nostalgic. I have seen the images of the
child houses. It was complete horror and super inhumane. I can handle a lot of
bad stuff but those images have been haunting me for a long time.

Very very sad and I am happy a lot has changed since then.

~~~
grandchild
It seemed pretty horrible and not at all nostalgic to me from the article.

> nearly inedible, watered-down food

> Hepatitis B and HIV/AIDS ravaged the Romanian orphanages

> naked children on benches

> overcrowded rooms where [...] orphans endlessly rocked, or punched
> themselves in the face, or shrieked

And at one point I think the article does draw a comparison with the
liberation of nazi concentration camps?

Not sure were you get the nostalgia from.

------
closeparen
This was a beautiful read, thank you.

A question always pops into my mind, reading about the effects of this kind of
deprivation on children. At what age do love and affection transition from an
inherent need to a frivolous want? From something it’s unconscionable for a
person to lack, to something where Hollywood is castigated for conditioning
people to expect it? Where is the developmental cut line?

~~~
DaiPlusPlus
> Hollywood is castigated for conditioning people to expect it?

Hollywood is (rightfully) castigated for setting unrealistic beauty standards
and expectations for young men and women, and for misrepresenting how healthy
romance and relationships work.

Love is out there for everyone (...I hope), but a good chunk of our media
influences suggest and imply that men should have an expectation that women
will automatically find them as an attractive partner or reinforce that
they’re somehow “entitled” to a sexual experience - these broken expectations
form the basis of many (but not all) of the misogynistic anger that fuels the
Incel movement.

~~~
brabel
> but a good chunk of our media influences suggest and imply that men should
> have an expectation that women will automatically find them as an attractive
> partner or reinforce that they’re somehow “entitled” to a sexual
> experience...

Why do you focus on men? It seems to me that all humans expect to be
"entitled" to sexual experiences.

~~~
quintushoratius
No one is entitled to use another person's body for sex, or anything else, and
it is improper to expect it.

If you need sex, most people have at least one working hand that can take care
of that urge for you.

Humans are social animals, however, and have such a strong desire for love and
friendship that lack of it, at any age, leads to dysfunction.

------
fierarul
While the drama that happened there can't be denied, it is tiresome to see
Romania in 2020 still presented in this light.

I've been browsing hn.algolia.com for articles posted in the past year about
various countries and I think Romania wins hands down on bad image. Is Romania
the bogeyman of civilisation? Well, supposedly Dracula comes from here too!

Just a side comment.

~~~
bad_user
I'm a Romanian and I actually love my country, but this article is more about
communist Romania or at most the Romania of the 90s and we shouldn't be in
denial about past or even current problems.

------
Zhenya
Atlantic says he was born ill, his site that they link to says he was born
healthy and became ill at 6 months.

What's going on with the fact checkers @ the Atlantic?

~~~
h2odragon
They're all tired and shagged out from a long squawk about chloroquine.

------
ThePowerOfFuet
Thank you for posting this. It's a long read, and depressing in parts, but I
found it really interesting.

~~~
19f191ty
.

~~~
Springtime
Kind of off-topic but it strikes me how 'tl;dr' has replaced usage of
'summary' in more contexts than I would have expected. Here perhaps feels a
bit out of keeping given the subject matter.

------
octodog
This is a brilliant but absolutely heartbreaking article. It is so sad to
think of all the children who have had their lives changed by such cruellness.

------
seunosewa
I don’t understand why the lady who took him home refused to take him back
after he mistakenly said he wanted to return to work with her. Was she so
annoyed with the little child because she thought he rejected her that she
would refuse to help him any further?

~~~
ajb
At that point they were at the gate, it's not clear from the article, but I
assumed that the orphanage authorities wouldn't permit that, rather than
Onisa.

~~~
Digit-Al
I think you're misunderstanding. When they were at her home she asked if he
wanted to stay at her home or come to work with her. It was at the gate that
he realised his mistake. As to why she just didn't refuse to take him... Well,
I guess that could be called kidnapping. Obviously I don't know for sure but I
would presume she was giving him the option of staying with her or going back,
but didn't realise he wouldn't understand that "going to work" with her would
mean going back. We'll never know for sure I guess.

------
ausbah
this is absolutely tragic through and through. thousands of children grow up
for in neglected, disgustingly unhygienic homes only more many of them to
never fully "recover" (in whatever sense of the word one chooses)

------
vstuart
Related: no mention in that article of notorious (Vancouver B.C.) Kayla
Bourque, who once studied criminal law purportedly to better accomplish the
future murder of a homeless person, plus other sociopathic behaviors ...

[https://www.google.com/search?q=kayla+bourque+romanian+orpha...](https://www.google.com/search?q=kayla+bourque+romanian+orphan)

------
factcheck21
Here are some harrowing facts about Romania:

Romania "contributes to 21% of registered victims, 21% of suspects of
conducting trafficking and 44% of prosecutions at the EU level.".
[https://www.euractiv.com/section/all/opinion/human-
trafficki...](https://www.euractiv.com/section/all/opinion/human-trafficking-
in-romania-an-integrated-approach-needed-in-the-era-of-open-borders/)

"Romania is plagued by a seedy evil: sex trafficking. It’s Europe’s undisputed
sex worker production factory and it might be interesting to understand why. "
[https://www.insideover.com/society/how-romania-became-
europe...](https://www.insideover.com/society/how-romania-became-europes-sex-
trafficking-factory.html)

"Cluj-Napoca, Romania’s fourth largest city, has the dubious distinction of
housing Europe’s largest waste-related ghetto."
[https://meta.eeb.org/2019/08/29/treated-like-trash-how-
roma-...](https://meta.eeb.org/2019/08/29/treated-like-trash-how-roma-in-
romania-are-forced-to-live-by-city-dumps/)

"A newspaper investigation found that disinfectant used in Romanian operating
rooms was ten times weaker than it should have been, and the people are angry.
" [https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/dp5a3m/romania-
hospitals-...](https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/dp5a3m/romania-hospitals-
infection-health-minister-resignation-876)

And the list goes on. It will be 2200 and Romanians will still blame it on
communism. Even here you can see many are trying to bury rampant corruption
and discrimination. It is so common in that country that the society will
instead try and hide facts only to sugar coat things.

------
stefantalpalaru
What they won't tell you is how many healthy children were bought for a few
grand each by Americans and Canadians who flooded Romania after the '89
revolution. They were all outside those terrible orphanages.

This foreign adoption lobby was so powerful that the US government pressured
Romanian authorities to keep allowing the black market of no-red-tape foreign
adoptions after the 2001 ban:
[https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/05BUCHAREST1173_a.html](https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/05BUCHAREST1173_a.html)

Those few voices outside the choir were silenced:
[http://www.roeliepost.com/](http://www.roeliepost.com/)

Fun fact: Romania's current president and his wife made a fortune as middlemen
for foreigners buying children from poor families -
[https://evz.ro/purtatorul-de-cuvant-al-pnl-alina-gorghiu-
con...](https://evz.ro/purtatorul-de-cuvant-al-pnl-alina-gorghiu-confirma-
implicarea-lui-klaus-iohannis-in-adoptiile-de-copii-de-dupa-1989.html)

~~~
zuppy
why have we started downvoting the comments we don’t like? how does this
improve the quality of the discussion? all he said is true, there were
children “purchased” by families that really wanted them. is this ok? they do
have a much better life, most of them at least, but are we ok with buying
people just because it’s for the good? i honestly don’t know the answer as i
have no data regarding what happened with them afterwards (i really hope they
got into good families). and please don’t be a pedant, i am well aware that
they had no price tags, but they have been adopted through bribe and political
influence.

~~~
oefrha
Can't say about "downvoting the comments we don't like", but downvoting for
disagreement has always been allowed:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16131314](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16131314)
As siblings have demonstrated, it's not hard to find something disagreeable in
gp, and it's debatable whether "all he said is true" (the general observation
about "purchases" is true AFAIK, more specific accusations aren't clear).

(I didn't downvote.)

~~~
zuppy
i know it’s allowed, but it has the very important side effect of hiding the
opinions that we disagree with. i would keep the downvote for low quality
comments, spam... this sort of stuff.

------
trumbler
Not surprised. To this day respect for human life in Romania is low - human
trafficking and rampant racism are part an parcel of life in that country. In
Cluj Napoca for instance, a notoriously corrupt city, people of gipsy
background are not even allowed in public administration buildings and their
children are frequently sold as modern day slaves. Withe the blessing of local
police forces of course. Yet Romanians couldnt care less.

~~~
pavlov
The treatment of Roma people (Gypsies) is a great stain on contemporary
Europe. They face massive institutional racism everywhere on the continent,
from Finland to Romania to France.

~~~
trumbler
Yeah you have no clue how bad it is in Romania tho. There still is actual
slavery with people being bought and sold and public places where they are not
allowed in. Including schools and hospitals. There are frequent reports of
them being rounded up and beaten and a walk around places where they live -
see Cluj pata Rat - will give you a sense of the scale.

Edit: i witnessed all this and recorded it.

~~~
bogdanu
Lol, what a troll.

~~~
fenesiistvan
I don't think that he is a troll. I just recently seen a shocking report with
people kept in sclavary. It was in a Hungarian gypsy town, but I can inagine
that the situation can be very similar here in Romania in some towns.

~~~
trumbler
his reaction is entirely in line with what 99% or romanians will say. it is a
constant state of denial. absolutely shocking. i prefer not to tolerate such
abuse nor hide it to sugarcoat it.

~~~
bogdanu
What you are trying to say is that slavery is systematic in RO, which is not
the case nor it's tolerated by the authorities.

Yes there were cases that shocked the public were people were forced, but
those are isolated and not tolerated. It's like saying that's a common
practice for Austrians to hold in their basement teenage girls.

I'm not gonna respond to any of your replys because it's pointless.

~~~
trumbler
yeah racism human trafficking and slavery are not just tolerated but are
actually practiced by Authorities in romania - otherwise it couldn't happen in
every county and every city of Romania and there wouldnt be reports about it
on a weekly basis. unlike your example about basement teenagers in austria
discovered every decade in romania it happens every so often and romania
wouldnt be an absolute leader on the topic. there wouldnt be ads for
prostitution next to almost every university either. there is no amount of
hiding to make that country look good you can do to change facts. i have
plenty of acquaintances working both in the police and government to know the
scale is far beyond what you delude yourself with. and there are plenty of
statistics available to prove my claims but you conveniently ignore. recently
an organised clan what not just acquitted but also given back their illegal
arsenal of weapons much to the shock of the british authorities whom sent the
case to romania. think the judge was stupid? think again. and stop hiding
these facts - it doesnt do you a favour it just shows you are happy to protect
a culture of crime and corruption so deeply entrenched in every day life that
you have either become immune or are part of it even if just by normalising
it.

