

You Can't Use the Live UK Train Data Without Accepting a Gagging Clause - mocko
https://mocko.org.uk/b/2013/02/22/you-cant-use-the-live-uk-train-data-without-accepting-a-gagging-clause/

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blibble
people forget that ATOC exists to protect and further the interests of their
members: the privately owned Train Operating Companies -- they don't owe
random developers anything.

Network Rail on the other had are (basically) state owned, and their extremely
comprehensive feeds are now completely open:
<http://www.networkrail.co.uk/data-feeds/>

these feeds even include the raw signalling data (you even get events when
trains activate level crossings) -- there's nothing stopping you building your
own NRE API.

I've been slowly building up a database of signal locations/berths to
lat/longs by matching up my physical position (while riding on the train) to
the NR feed events, with the idea of being able to produce a much better map
of where the trains are in realtime.

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SideburnsOfDoom
> they don't owe random developers anything

IMHO ATOC, like everyone else, owe random developers one thing: to deal with
them fairly; and not say one thing but do another. To not say that they're
open when they're just giving it lip service.

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johnpapdu
There's no legal obligation to do that, so why should they? Because of morals?
Are your morals demonstrably more correct than theirs? Why should your morals
have anything to do with their morals? If you want a company to do something,
you either need to go through your representative in our democratic process to
suggest a change to the law, withdraw your custom, or shut up. Hoping that
they follow your arbitrary morals is bizarre.

~~~
SideburnsOfDoom
So if I understand your argument, it is basically "how can you possibly say
that the arbitrary morals of 'fair dealing' is more correct than 'screwing
everyone over'? Bizarre. Shut up."

Is that right? Or is there more to it than a simple derailing tactic?

~~~
mercurial
> Or is there more to it than a simple derailing tactic?

I see what you did here.

~~~
SideburnsOfDoom
Derailing the derailer? Maybe so.

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JasonFruit
I guess I'm not revolutionary enough, but I can't see the problem with this.
It makes sense for a private company to protect their reputation, and it makes
sense not to provide data to people who run them down in public. They have an
agreement to that effect that is _provided in advance_ , and you can opt out
be deciding not to participate.

I know I'm supposed to feel rage whenever there are conditions placed on the
use of data, but I just can't muster it up in this case. Sorry.

~~~
blocking_io
A private company which is funded by companies which are contracted by the
government to provide rail service. As a taxpayer subsidised body, they should
have a greater degree of accountability.

~~~
JasonFruit
By that logic, every contractor hired mainly by government would have to
behave like a public organization. I don't think that leads to sensible
conclusions, and it's redolent of after-the-fact justification.

~~~
SideburnsOfDoom
> By that logic, every contractor hired mainly by government would have to
> behave like a public organization.

You say that like it's a bad thing. In fact, on major criticism of outsourcing
and privatisation is that it becomes way to shelter dubious activities from
Freedom-Of-Information requests that would apply if the work was done by a
public organization.

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rurounijones
I remember a while ago I wanted to get the location of things like bus-stops.
(after the whole "showusabetterway" waste-of-time site the UK gov created. )

Found the information on a site some and found that I could ONLY use it if I
was under contract from a UK local council.

Most of the info sources listed on that site were bound up in huge amounts of
red tape / brick walls

Frankly I am not surprised that the trains are in the same situation.

~~~
robinhouston
Some things do get better, at least. The database that includes the locations
of bus stops (NaPTAN) is now open data: <http://data.gov.uk/dataset/naptan>

~~~
rurounijones
Ahhh, NaPTAN, that was what it was called.

Thank you, I gave up a long time ago with the project that was going to use
this data.

Glad that things are getting better at least.

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meaty
Annoyingly this wasn't always the case. Since privatization this has been the
case. Prior to that you could get a TOPS terminal/feed for a nominal fee and
do what you want with it.

Now, it's covering arses and nothing more.

~~~
SideburnsOfDoom
It's not just CYA. It's also profit, corporate reputation management and
empire-building.

~~~
huhsamovar
Ironically, this is precisely the attitude that prevents companies from
improving their product. Such a shame.

~~~
CapitalistCartr
That's not ironic; the goal of a company is not to improve their product; its
to SELL it. "Profit, corporate reputation management and empire-building"
support selling; product improvement may or may not, depending on the market
and the improvement.

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coob
As someone who had to shutter an app due to legal threats from ATOC, this
doesn't surprise me one iota.

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danpalmer
This happens with Bus data as well in the UK. Although possibly for different
reasons.

I work with live bus time data and before getting access I had to sign an NDA
because bus companies are fined by the council for poor performance. With
access to that data I can see the percentage of buses that are late and could
compromise the business of the companies.

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andreyf
_NRE have a stranglehold on the only comprehensive source of real-time
passenger train data in the UK. They developed it to power their own website
but have recognised in it a way to exert power over anyone who wants to use
real time train data and to stifle criticism._

What is referred to by "their website"? Why not just scrape the data?

~~~
blocking_io
Presumably National Rail Enquiries. How can you base a commercial application
on scraping a website? That is not a sensible business model.

~~~
warrenmiller
Google do

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darklajid
I'm torn.

While I certainly don't like a 'gagging clause', I can only look with envy at
the data you UK guys can get your hand at.

So, maybe it's not perfect, maybe not good enough, but being able to get at
that much data in the first place _is_ already quite remarkable imo. I'd love
to see a German equivalent, gagging clause or not.

~~~
andrewem
What's the transit data availability situation in Germany?

In the US, various public transit agencies do varyingly good jobs of this.
Boston's MBTA has lots of data available, both geo, schedule and real-time,
and hasn't made any complaints or tried to stop a site which is at least
somewhat critical (<http://howfuckedisthet.com>), and have been stupendously
helpful to me as a developer. New York's MTA built their own system using an
open transit API for bus real-time data
(<http://bustime.mta.info/wiki/Developers/Index>). Certain of my interactions
with them have been less than efficient, let's say.

~~~
andrewem
I just noticed this page on Transport for London's API docs [1], the summary
of which is "Use our data, but don't pretend to be us". +1 for straightforward
guidelines like this. For instance, "Please don't... Use our brands - the
roundel, unless it's part of a map interface" , but "Please do... Use the
words 'London Underground', 'Tube' and 'London bus'".

[1]
[http://www.tfl.gov.uk/businessandpartners/syndication/17102....](http://www.tfl.gov.uk/businessandpartners/syndication/17102.aspx)

