
Leo The Homeless Coder Is Still Homeless - talhof8
http://www.businessinsider.com/leo-the-homeless-coder-2014-5
======
lrvick
Having spent a couple years being homeless off and on, this resonates with me.

During my homeless days I had a laptop for a while. I would do web programming
for various online clients on it, and when that got stolen I would work from a
local college forging student ids to use library computers.

I made enough for fast food dollar menus, and to keep a little bit of gas in a
somewhat-running car I bought for $100.

The bare minimum to keep myself distracted and fed was all I did even though
so much more was possible. I told myself I liked the freedom, but in truth I
was just too scared and had too low of self esteem to take on a more
comfortable lifestyle.

Even when I found a home I picked a ghetto camper in the woods, and took only
enough gigs to pay bills. I would make a couple grand on a
programming/consulting contract, live on it till it ran out, then take on a
new gig.

It took a lot of the right people investing in me over and over, and being
patient, before I started to decide that I deserved more, that I wanted more.
That it was worth working hard for.

It takes more than just teaching marketable skills to get someone off the
streets. It takes them seeing themselves as worthy to do more with their
lives. At the end of the day, they have to make that choice to change, and
triggering that is going to be different for everyone.

I am sure teaching this man to code was huge for his self-worth, but there are
a lot of deeper emotional issues why he is there that are probably going to
take a lot of time and patience to uncover one step at a time.

~~~
capdiz
"The bare minimum to keep myself distracted and fed was all I did even though
so much more was possible. I told myself I liked the freedom, but in truth I
was just too scared and had too low of self esteem to take on a more
comfortable lifestyle." I don't know whether i fit this description. But it
just did resonate with me. Am not homeless but still live at my moms house
(27yrs old). Never really held down a real job (9-5) for all i can rememeber.
Been moving from web app after web app hoping i could build/stumble upon
something that can improve my livelihood but zero and it feels like am really
running out of time.

~~~
Noxchi
It applies to everyone.

Everyone has a internal "thermostat" of how much they deserve to make. After
they get above that, then they feel bad about making more and don't usually do
any work.

------
drzaiusapelord
Is there an element of exploitation here from the media? It looks like Leo was
on the Today show. I recall the homeless guy with a "radio voice" also got the
same treatment, and ultimately, they both weren't able to normalize back into
society.

The idea that homelessness is just a financial problem and that if we come up
with a ad-impression friendly narrative, then we can just solve it via a
little fame and a little elbow grease is crazy. I guess the system got what it
wanted: the Today show got its feel good story for overfed housewives and
Today show advertisers got the eyeballs they wanted. Larger, more important,
narratives were conveniently ignored.

Meanwhile, the larger narrative on how the US's private healthcare system
means huge barriers to entry and especially for mental health issues, gets
swept under the rug. Leo doesn't want a bank account for non-rational reasons.
A little money and fame aren't going to change that. The whole article seems
to skirt around the obvious mental health issues here. Its just incredible we
can just pretend they don't exist and come up with ham-handed rationalizations
on why Leo doesn't want a bank account. Yeah, its because he's mentally ill
and is unable to functional in a normal way.

~~~
vinceguidry
> Is there an element of exploitation here from the media?

Media outlets rationalize this with the, probably justified, view that both
parties, as well as society at large are benefiting.

Leo very probably wouldn't have gotten close to $10,000 had there been no
coverage of his story. You can't blame them for not knowing that he wouldn't
be able to take the money.

As for society, we get to have this conversation and some people hopefully get
a more nuanced understanding of the problem of homelessness.

You seem to want to change the narrative towards the healthcare system and
it's "huge barrier to entry" by saying it's getting swept under the rug.
That's an admirable position, but that's a completely different story.

How would it look if they started with Leo still being homeless, then segued
arbitrarily into editorializing over health care? People would accuse them of
having an agenda, and rightfully so.

~~~
drzaiusapelord
>Leo very probably wouldn't have gotten close to $10,000 had there been no
coverage of his story.

In the article, Patrick claims he didn't want media attention. Who knows how
well the app would have performed without it. Lets say it made $7,000 instead
of $10,000 but Patrick gained the privacy and dignity to work out issues with
Leo without the endless media attention. Maybe that would have worked out
better. Generally, media attention makes sensitive things of this nature
worse, not better.

>As for society, we get to have this conversation

What conversation exactly? Are the people who are watching the Today show
talking about mental healthcare? It seems like this is the cheap "make easy
money now, even a homeless person can do it" narrative, except with an
undercurrent of "hard work fixes all!" Apparently, it doesn't.

>That's an admirable position, but that's a completely different story.

I don't think so. I think the story is so focused on the money, but not the
well-being or core issues Leo faces, most of which look like mental illness to
me.

>then segued arbitrarily into editorializing over health care?

Heaven forbid we ask why Leo can't handle the idea of a bank account. The idea
that its rational and sane to lose $10k is laughable. The guy clearly has
problems. The question that's obvious and should be asked for by a
compassionate society is why can't Leo get the care he needs? The money, fame,
attention, etc are all secondary. Ironically, the money isn't helping him get
what he needs because he's literally too dysfunctional to turn it into to
healthcare.

~~~
rch
> The idea that its rational and sane to lose $10k is laughable

Not obvious. Until you get his SSN or otherwise do a background check, you
have no idea what's in his past, or how that $10K compares to his legal
obligations. There is an unaddressed moral question for society in whether a
person in a difficult situation has an implicit right to both a non-zero
personal net worth and anonymity.

(again, I don't know Leo's situation either)

~~~
afarrell
Does one have a right to be free from child support obligations?

~~~
logfromblammo
Yes. Slavery, indentures, and other conditions of involuntary servitude have
been outlawed by constitutional amendment for a long time, now.

In the particular instance where a parent is obligated to labor for the
benefit of a child (possibly even one that is a true genetic descendant) for a
term of 18 years, however, the government has seen fit to ignore the legal
niceties in order to reduce its own welfare burden for supporting single
parents.

In other words, the state ignores its own rule because following it would be
expensive, the victims are too poor to fight it, and no one likes deadbeat
parents enough to fight it for them. Expedience!

Child support is a political beehive, vigorously defended by partisans on
either side of the issue. Approach it with any intent, or even none at all,
and you could get swarmed and stung just for being nearby. So I say, with a
megaphone from a long way away, that whether it is right or wrong, child
support laws do appear to be inconsistent with foundation law.

I consider it unlikely that is why Leo does not want his own bank account. It
may be a contributing factor, but I think it far more likely that he does not
believe banks to be any more trustworthy than the street thugs that steal
anything even remotely of value from him and his cohort. Banking may have been
a significant contributing factor in his exit from home-having society. In
some ways, the bank simply allows different people to take your money.

As long as it is not attached to him directly, perhaps he feels like it is
harder for anyone to steal _the idea_ of him having $10000? If he takes
possession, it will get spent or stolen, and then it would be gone, along with
the idea of having it. But who could really know for sure from an article that
features precious little commentary from its main subject? It may be worth
more to him as a floor on his self-worth ("Well, I'm worth _at least_
$10000.") than as cash in hand.

------
mortov
This is a great article to elucidate the complexities of homelessness.

Despite having intelligence and a talent, resulting in an income sufficient to
'get started' on the social ladder and rejoin mainstream society, the prospect
is very daunting to Leo.

Even when given access to support and then a 'deadline' to push him (and being
accompanied to a bank to deposit the money), it gets too much and he backs
out.

Homeless people are not just hopeless drunks or weirdos. They often have an
array of complex and intractible fears and issues and are incapable of
functioning in mainstream society - even with large amounts of help.

I don't see any blame here - but it does sadden me that someone with so much
clear and semi-realized potential can struggle so much. Consider for a moment
how homless people less 'fortunate' [I can't help feeling that's the wrong
word] must struggle every single day.

I've never thought through the 'teach a man to fish' in this way; life's not
actually that simple.

Sadly, I don't see a solution. But I wish there was one.

~~~
jballanc
It may sounds trite, but there is a solution: very strong family structures.
Where I live, homelessness is essentially unheard of. Yes, many people live in
dirt-floor huts, but they live together, often as large extended-family units.
The lone vagabond sleeping in a box in a random city alley just doesn't
happen. No family would _let_ it happen...

~~~
rikkus
This likely helps the problem, yes. It might not fix the underlying issues,
but at least the unfortunate person's personal problems aren't compounded by
losing a stable place to stay.

------
imgabe
I feel like there's a lot missing by saying Leo "for whatever reason" does not
want a bank account. What reason? Surely he has one. Could they not ask him
what his reason is?

They give a bunch of justification about humans being creatures of habit.
Nonsense. I'm sure Leo has some notions about everything a bank account is
going to entail, and it's intimidating, but I don't see why it couldn't be
overcome and this article does nothing to explain that. If Patrick can teach
him to code, he could teach him the logistics of setting up a bank account,
finding an apartment, etc. etc.

~~~
jljljl
For people without stable incomes or a large starting balance to serve as a
buffer, bank accounts can be incredibly expensive, and confusing.

If you can easily maintain a few thousand dollars in positive balance, the
weird rules around NSF and overdraft fees never really impact you. If you are
living paycheck to paycheck, however, a single overdraft can wipe you out.

Here's a few articles that look at why low income individuals may choose to
avoid banks:

[http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/currency/2013/10/the-h...](http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/currency/2013/10/the-
high-cost-for-the-poor-of-using-a-bank.html)

[http://www.publicbooks.org/nonfiction/ritecheck-12](http://www.publicbooks.org/nonfiction/ritecheck-12)

~~~
dobbsbob
He probably has plenty of unpaid fines from the police too, as every homeless
person is typically hounded with loitering and other petty fines that a
collection agency would grab from his account.

------
peterwwillis
Not to be insensitive, but any social worker could have told you all this.
It's a pretty well established fact that the single biggest challenge in
getting the long-term homeless back on their feet is not resources, it's
repairing the damage done to their psyche.

For a greatly simplified explanation, consider that studies show positive
emotions have a huge impact on psychological resilience, and homeless people
do not have significant amounts of positive emotional reinforcement - though
they do have plenty of adverse and stressful life experiences. Children who
grow up in negative, impoverished, or homeless situations are found to become
developmentally stunted, though some of the effects can be reversed in quality
foster care.

------
danso
> _Patrick McConlogue, for all intents and purposes, did not "solve
> homelessness."_

 _The result seems to echo the statements made by the project 's biggest
critics — not everyone wants to be saved. Fixing homelessness is a lot more
complicated than everyone thinks._

If you try to help a homeless person, then you must also end all homelessness
or accept that you're just a naive failure, apparently.

~~~
glesica
_If you try to help a homeless person, then you must also end all homelessness
or accept that you 're just a naive failure, apparently._

Not at all. But when you (to some extent) and others (to a much, much greater
extent) hold up a project or strategy as being a solution to a problem, it is
important for the outcome to be publicized, whether that outcome is success or
failure (or some of both).

This situation got a lot of attention when it started, so it needs just as
much, if not more, attention now that it has (more or less) concluded. I
recall there being a lot of implicit, and some explicit, suggestions that this
sort of thing could "scale". Turns out it can't. That's an important piece of
knowledge to have for the future.

Edit: formatting

~~~
eloisant
Indeed, the experiment is very skewed because he only managed to make 10 grand
_because_ he was homeless and the whole story got publicized.

His app is fairly common, and without the "media story" around it he would
probably have made a bit more than $20 over the same span of time. Just like
most app developers.

------
martinald
Pretty appalling in my eyes setting him an ultimatum. I would imagine Patrick
would have the lawyers out if someone gave him an ultimatum that he would
struggle to meet like that.

Homelessness is an intensely difficult problem to solve and won't be solved
overnight by giving people a laptop and some books.

~~~
andrew_gardener
Its my sincere hope that it is a "soft" ultimatum. That is, if the deadline is
reached, that Patrick will just extend it with another deadline. I think
Patrick is just trying to apply some pressure to help Leo take the money in
one form or another (now if that's a good idea or not...)

Of course I have no idea what Patrick will do if it comes down to the deadline
but I truly hope he's not going to force some sort of resolution.

------
namenotrequired
> Patrick McConlogue, for all intents and purposes, did not "solve
> homelessness."

No, but he solved what Leo saw as the worst problem of the homeless man by
being his friend. He's happy now.

------
j45
Maybe he could receive the money in Bitcoin and spend it as he needs?

What a nice and insightful follow up though. Too often, we think our job is
done and move on to the next keyboard warrior crusade.

This experience is reflection of how we don't always think about how people
who are truly less fortunate can be tied to money as much as people who have
more of it.

Everyone has the right to have the opportunity to work through their stuff.
Not being able to have the basic necessities similarly can prevent you from
pursuing one's inner growth, when the next place to eat or sleep is the real
struggle.

It's a collective failure of our society in many ways, if we are quick to
judge and trivialize anyone's experience of their existence without taking a
minute to turn any stranger into a person by learning their story and
participating in humanity by treating others with unconditional dignity.

There was good in this journey that should continue:

\- The heart was in the right place. Giving in the right mindset is all one
can do.

\- Something positive came of this, namely someone has learned a new skill. We
all feel more empowered when we can create the smallest new habit, let alone a
new talent altogether.

\- Like everyone deserves, they are working through their stuff.

I can't help but wonder if there's more like this that could be happening in
other cities. Ultimately it will reach who is ready to find and take their
next step, and it's not our job to create change, only help plant seeds and
encourage the gardener to give it the water and sunshine it needs.

At the end of the day only we can learn our own lessons, and we have a choice
in supporting and encouraging each other to do so. Sounds hokey to some, but
once you have the right supportive circle in your life, there's nothing like
it.

Hopefully the sharing of this experience doesn't turn people away from trying
to improve it, no effort is perfect the first time.

There are few skills like programming that can turn someone's fortunes around
this day in age, whether we are homeless, or not, and everyone deserves an
opportunity to see what they can be, and become.

~~~
ctdonath
As few places take bitcoin, how is he supposed to operate a bitcoin account
without processing transactions via a regular bank account?

~~~
j45
Maybe someone could purchase it for him?

I may be looking at this from a possibility perspective instead of finding
doubts and holes.

------
downandout
While I (sort of) understand someone in Leo's position having an aversion to
walking in and opening a traditional bank account, in today's society we have
very good solutions for the 1 in 12 people in the US that are "unbanked". The
guy holding his money could just buy him a reloadable prepaid Visa/Mastercard
and load the money on there. No banks, social security cards etc. That way he
isn't walking around with $10K cash, and he can go to an ATM at night when no
one is around if he is afraid of people.

There may be issues I'm not aware of. Perhaps Leo is a former drug addict and
doesn't trust that he can stay clean (or alive for that matter) if he has a
sudden influx of cash. Even that could be dealt with though, as his benefactor
could simply transfer money to the card in small increments. It just seems
that there are easy solutions to whatever issues exist, and that they haven't
been explored (based solely on the information in this article).

------
mercer
I'm impressed by the article, as usually I expect articles on these issues to
skew towards a complete misunderstanding of homelessness, often at best with a
tone of exasperation.

From my experience around homeless or border-line homeless people, it's always
more complicated than it seems.

And yet, simply being kind, even if just acknowledging their existence without
making them feel judged, seems to me like a great start. Even if the
underlying motivations might be misguided.

Here in The Netherlands we have some systems that help those who are homeless,
or those who are in danger of becoming homeless. While there is plenty of
criticism, and plenty goes wrong, there are also plenty of examples of people
getting back on their feet because we have strong support structures. I really
hope stories such as these will help to increase initiatives like that, or at
least funding of existing (result-based) programs.

I feel there are some serious societal issues underlying the phenomenon, but
something is better than nothing.

------
russelluresti
It's very strange how people approach this story. The entire mentality of
"He's still homeless so obviously this was a waste of time." is dumb. Yes,
there are multiple issues that need to be dealt with when you talk about re-
integrating someone into society, but one of the biggest issues (perhaps
second after any mental/emotional trauma) is the ability to earn money.

Leo has been taught a skill that has earned him money, and one where he can
continue to develop this skill and make more money.

------
ufmace
I'm really glad they did a follow-up on this. Seems much more insightful than
just throwing an idea like "Let's teach them to code!" out there, trying it
for 10 minutes, and then moving on to the next story. This does a much better
job of illustrating how complex the issue is, and how just throwing money at
it may not help much.

------
vkjv
Reasons for poverty extend beyond lack of a marketable skill. News at 11.

------
sbahra
"Give a man to fish."

~~~
logfromblammo
You know how it goes.

Give a man to fish, and today is eating; teach him a fish, and he forevers.

------
squigs25
This really shows how much humans are creatures of habit.

------
facepalm
Bitcoin?

------
michaelochurch
Patrick deserves a lot of credit for taking this problem on. Say whatever
about naivete, but he at least fucking did something.

Most HN posters in the U.S. probably haven't experienced true financial
stress. It's toxic. It makes you paranoid. Benzos don't help (and they're a
terrible long-term solution anyway). You have a constant cold because your
immune system is shot. And _you never get used to it_. It never gets better.
The cognitive load is both intense and purely negative. There is no good in
it. People who romanticize "poverty" are usually talking about something like
grad student life (little money, little expense). Financial stress is as
poisonous as ingesting paint thinner, and even a few weeks of it can
permanently fuck someone up.

I think that most homeless people have severe mental illness that is not their
fault (and that deserves compassion and treatment, not stigma or abuse). If
they didn't have it beforehand, they'll have it after a few months of that
life.

I think it's damn heroic that Leo was able to summon the cognitive clarity,
after that kind of long-term damage, to build something. Unfortunately, that's
not going to be enough to get him anywhere _near_ the level of mental health
that would enable him to hold down a typical white-collar job. That's a
fucking long road.

~~~
peterwwillis
> I think that most homeless people have severe mental illness

This is another stigma that's counter-productive. The real number is somewhere
between 20-25% suffering from severe mental illness, which is still very high,
though not so high when you consider 22% of Americans suffer from some kind of
a mental illness (only 6% of Americans are severely mentally ill). Mental
illness is only the third largest cause of homelessness for single adults.

To add to your point: poverty causes something like a 13% drop in the IQ,
similar to pulling an all-nighter every day for a week.

~~~
jljljl
Here's the source I think you are citing:
[http://www.nationalhomeless.org/factsheets/Mental_Illness.pd...](http://www.nationalhomeless.org/factsheets/Mental_Illness.pdf)

20-25% is a pretty high number, especially when you compare it to the 6% of
Americans with a severe mental illness. I can't find any good estimates for
the percent of homeless with any form of mental illness.

A good question (which I can't find an answer to) is what is the percentage of
the _long term_ homeless population that suffers from severe mental illness?

