
How LeBron James' new public school is the first of its kind - Tomte
https://www.sbnation.com/platform/amp/2018/7/31/17634370/lebron-james-school-akron-i-promise-different
======
roland35
I am excited about this approach and I think LeBron's organization has put a
lot of though and work with experts on this project.

\- This school is a true public school and not a charter school. In Ohio a lot
of charter schools can have some degree of selection in their students and
kick out families which don't meet the requirements which leads to more at-
risk students left to the public schools. This school is making a point of
taking at-risk students.

\- Longer school days, 3 meals, and a longer school year helps students stay
focused. Unfortunately the home environment for a lot of kids makes it so hard
for these kids to be able to focus at school. In my wife's elementary school
classes some kids show up with just a hamburger bun for breakfast. Others fall
asleep immediately at school since they live with 5+ siblings and there are
literally no available beds at home. I am not trying to blame the parents in
all the cases either, a lot of the time there are single parents just trying
to get by and make ends meet and don't know what more they can do.

\- Focussing on the teachers will also help. Teachers and unions have been
vilified by Governor Kasich but they are not the main problem at all (it is
the tragic home environments) with ridiculous review systems and standards,
but then there is little support in challenging districts like in
Akron/Cleveland. It is a lot easier to work in the suburbs where the kids
would progress and learn even without teachers, so that is where everyone
wants to go since a good rating is automatic. I think this problem occurs in
just about every field where metrics dominate the review system (medicine,
call centers, QA, etc). The turnover for teachers at local charter schools is
terrible and only seems to attract early-career teachers who couldn't get a
job at a public school.

\- This doesn't seem to be a short term flashy project but has been years in
the making. None of the features here are gimmicky, but just like many things
in life it takes a lot of hard work!

\- Adding the goal of college education shows a path forward which a lot of
students don't think is possible.

I am super excited to be from Akron and I hope this model proves successful!

~~~
masklinn
> Longer school days, 3 meals, and a longer school year helps students stay
> focused.

The middle one is absolutely true, the other two I _really_ doubt e.g. in
Finland or Germany, schoolday starts around 9AM and ends around 2PM, yielding
3h30 to 4h studies a day accounting for breaks, 5 days/week, with little
homework (maybe 5h/week total). Afternoon is usually dedicated to clubs.

~~~
toyg
You absolutely cannot compare Northern Europe with inner-city black America.
Different worlds, different values, different histories, different attitudes,
different challenges. No model fits all, especially in education, but these
two realities are so dramatically different that they don’t really belong in
the same sentence.

~~~
fhood
Agreed. Using Finland as an example is absurd. Finland has a very wealthy,
very homogeneous population. Longer school days are designed, in this case, to
keep many of these kids in a safe environment for as long as possible.

~~~
moorhosj
==Using Finland as an example is absurd. Finland has a very wealthy, very
homogeneous population.==

Finland is 21% less wealthy than America on a per capita basis.

Finland GDP per capita - $35,964.77

US GDP per capita - $45,759.46

-[http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Finland/Uni...](http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Finland/United-States/Economy)

~~~
ezzzzz
Finland has a drastically lower poverty rate, lower income inequality [1] and
lower violent crime rate than the United States [2].

This fact, combined with Finland's well-known social safety nets leads to the
obvious conclusion that you would be hard pressed to find living conditions
like those in the slums of Akron/Cleveland in Finland.

[1][https://data.oecd.org/finland.htm#profile-
government](https://data.oecd.org/finland.htm#profile-government)
[2][http://www.nationmaster.com/country-
info/compare/Finland/Uni...](http://www.nationmaster.com/country-
info/compare/Finland/United-States/Crime)

~~~
moorhosj
==This fact, combined with Finland's well-known social safety nets leads to
the obvious conclusion that you would be hard pressed to find living
conditions like those in the slums of Akron/Cleveland in Finland.==

Isn't it possible that Finland's well-known social safety net is at least
partially responsible for the lower poverty, income inequality and violent
crime rates?

~~~
toyg
It's absolutely the case, no question; but the problem here is that a school
model that works in that scenario is unlikely to work in the current American
scenario. It's like writing programs for high-level APIs (that will take care
of memory, sorting and so on) versus writing programs against the POSIX
interface (where you have to basically do everything yourself).

------
sebringj
From what I read it seems he's focusing on the pain points or barriers to
learning from the perspective of the underprivileged from whence LeBron came.
If you have someone that lived this giving him deep insight to the real issues
AND he's a good person AND he has power to change, that is a fabulous formula
for success. I hope this works out. Too many times you have people meaning
well that have not actually experienced the life of the subjects being helped
and you end up with wrong-fit solutions. We can all understand this as coders
when we build something thinking this is how users will use it and then find
out no, that's not the case.

~~~
dmix
I'm not convinced this 'diversity of thought' (aka direct domain expertise) is
actually as useful as people love to claim these days. It's an extremely
popular narrative that gets pushed with very little questioning or measuring
of its utility.

a) is it really accurate that a smart person can't legitimately learn and be
sensitive to life experiences from others or b) why can't they hire people to
advise them while still managing the project themselves?

This sounds like a solvable problem by promoting being sympathetic and
deferential, rather than replacing people outright from the process simply
because they aren't 'from' that group. It's just as likely the people with the
life experience don't have the other skills for managing or running a project
as well.

Everyone is acting like this project is already a success when it has just
launched...Id wait a couple years before calling LeBron a hero.

~~~
orbitur
> a) is it really accurate that a smart person can't legitimately learn and be
> sensitive to life experiences from others

There's are a lot of subtleties that lived experience can reveal. Even the
smartest person might miss some knock-on effect, etc.

> b) why can't they hire people to advise them while still managing the
> project themselves?

So, you're saying... diversity of thought might be useful?

~~~
dmix
Yes useful in advisory role, ie interviewing subjects throughout the process,
particularly getting their feedback/input during research, product
development, and design would be extremely valuable. Which is quite distinct
from this idea that entrepreneurs, leaders, and employees internal must be
'diverse' themselves in odder for projects to succeed.

What should matter first is the team members skill/talent relevant to the
project. While also hiring sympathic people who go out in the field to get
feedback and interview subjects to determine the problems needing solving,+gýg
environment factors, attitudes, etc.

------
rory096
This "normal public school" line is bizarre to me. Yes, it's a part of the
school district. But it accepts specific students and has its own expanded
curriculum.

It's a magnet school.

~~~
mliker
Yes but it's a magnet of underprivileged and at risk students. Not your
typical magnet. Props to LeBron for starting the school.

~~~
rory096
No doubt! I definitely don't mean to denigrate the project at all, it's an
incredibly philanthropic move by LeBron and he deserves every ounce of the
praise he's been getting.

I just see a lot of people using the "public school" line as a cudgel to bash
charter schools, but charter schools are _exactly_ the mechanism to accomplish
something like this for people who aren't revered/rich enough to exercise the
kind of influence over their hometown that LeBron did to get them to agree to
incorporate novel facilities and practices directly into their district.

~~~
pbreit
What prevents non-charter/magnet schools from doing such things?

~~~
rory096
Regular public schools are limited to the curriculum prescribed by their
school boards and generally can't deviate or experiment much. They're also, by
definition, limited to students in a specific geographical area rather than
any selection criteria. As others have noted, this goes both ways -
charter/magnet schools can choose to serve the highest aptitude students (as
most do), but they can also choose to serve at-risk or academically challenged
students as this one does.

~~~
pbreit
So why can’t school boards prescribe such things? The geo limit doesn’t matter
much/at all.

~~~
rory096
No explicit reason, they just generally don't. When you're beholden to voters
or a city council, your job is least threatened when you don't rock the boat.
If you _do_ rock it, you better make sure you're right or it's not likely to
end well for you. Meanwhile, your 'subjects' are unwitting participants who
thought they'd be getting a normal education, not early adopters explicitly
willing to try something new. All of these factors discourage experimentation.

------
lg
wow, the linked related article about NYC school segregation was depressing:
[https://www.vox.com/2016/2/16/10980856/new-york-city-
schools...](https://www.vox.com/2016/2/16/10980856/new-york-city-schools-
segregation) especially the part about charters having two times during the
year when low-performing students are forced out into the public school: one
in October after per-student funding is allocated to the school, allowing them
to grab the funding while pushing a now-unfunded student onto the public
school, and again in Spring right before standardized testing, when they can
weed out the ones who did poorly on prep tests. Seems like the city/state
should step in and disallow this practice.

~~~
Shivetya
the lie perpetuated through the decades that segregation was a Southern thing
may never really truly come to light as people really are shy on learning
things they don't want to believe. the laws to stop it were written to block
any attempts to desegregate Northern schools, or more to the point NYC

[https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/new-york-school-
desegre...](https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/new-york-school-
desegregation_us_56fc7cebe4b0a06d5804bdf0)

[https://www.vox.com/2016/2/16/10980856/new-york-city-
schools...](https://www.vox.com/2016/2/16/10980856/new-york-city-schools-
segregation)

------
chad_strategic
It's nice to wake up and read a story about someone making a difference. Here
is to a good day.

------
cepth
In related news, RAND just finished its study of the Gates Foundation's
"Intensive Partnerships for Effective Teaching initiative".

RAND found that "With minor exceptions, by 2014–2015, student achievement,
access to effective teaching, and dropout rates were not dramatically better
than they were for similar sites that did not participate".

It's refreshing to see a holistic approach to helping at-risk students,
instead of assuming that teachers are the most important component. Good
nutrition, safe transport to school, and support for parents all seem like
ideas that should be more experimented with.

[https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR2242.html](https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR2242.html)

------
Taylor_OD
It's great to see superstars like LeBron doing something like this. Say what
you want about him as a player but you cant knock him as a philanthropist.

~~~
nemo44x
I'm not a fan boy or anything but he's a rather remarkable person. To take
advantage of the biological attributes he was given and work insanely hard to
maximize them from a young age. All while not being distracted by all the
other things that could lead to squandering his natural talents. And then not
relying just on those but enhancing them through dedication and discipline.

Then you throw in all the pressure he had as a youth to be the next big thing
and then going to the NBA and succeeding immediately in terms of personal
ability.

Yes, he had that PR blunder when he left Cleveland but he had good reason to -
he just took bad advice and went about it wrong. But he proved his point and
then came back home and helped win a championship for his hometown team.

All this while remaining super charismatic, not falling into bad habits or
getting involved in scandals. Being a good father and marrying his high school
sweetheart whom he has 3 children with.

Doing things for the community that aren't vapid or short term PR grabs. But
really trying to make a difference.

All the while coming from a very disadvantaged place economically and without
his father around.

He's by all accounts a savvy and smart businessman and hasn't blown it like so
many people with rags to riches stories. He has kept his good friends around
and integrated them into his businesses in ways that make sense. He appears to
show true loyalty to those that were with him before he became what he is
today.

He's well spoken and thoughtful on top of it all.

I don't follow his sport much but he is a person who appears to just be
exceptional in many ways. He just seems so genuine and without the veneer that
other stars really suffer from. Granted he has a massive PR team and marketing
team but it would have been so easy to have a slip-up. It would have been easy
to make bad business decisions and it would have been easy to find new
"friends" and women and all the other things that are short term. But he has a
goal larger than being an NBA star and he's stuck with it.

~~~
dharmon
And he's hilarious! I thought he stole the show in "Trainwreck".

~~~
fizwhiz
Not sure why you're being downvoted; he actually did do a pretty good job in
that movie

------
pdfernhout
Compare from the article: "I Promise will feature longer school days, a non-
traditional school year, and greater access to the school, its facilities, and
its teachers during down time for students. That’s a formula aimed at
replicating some of the at-home support children may be missing when it comes
to schoolwork."

With John Taylor Gatto (NYS Teacher of the year and also schooling critic)
[https://www.johntaylorgatto.com/uncategorized/two-social-
rev...](https://www.johntaylorgatto.com/uncategorized/two-social-revolutions-
become-one-undergroudhistory/) "Before you can reach a point of effectiveness
in defending your own children or your principles against the assault of blind
social machinery, you have to stop conspiring against yourself by attempting
to negotiate with a set of abstract principles and rules which, by its nature,
cannot respond. Under all its disguises, that is what institutional schooling
is, an abstraction which has escaped its handlers. Nobody can reform it. First
you have to realize that human values are the stuff of madness to a system; in
systems-logic the schools we have are already the schools the system needs;
the only way they could be much improved is to have kids eat, sleep, live, and
die there."

~~~
madrox
I've never heard of John Taylor Gatto before, but I just read the article you
link, and it's a brutal takedown of public schools. One that I connect with.

------
Nokinside
Elizabeth Warren pointed out that the US housing crisis was partly caused by
inflated house prices in good public school districts. Middle income families
were paying the education of their children in high property price.

Maybe LeBron should invest into the property around the school to reap some of
the benefits and use them to finance the school. Holistic property
development.

~~~
BurningFrog
Warren is not a great thinker on Economics issues.

Good or bad school districts only change the relative prices. It doesn't alter
the total amount of housing per population.

In other words, anyone moving to a house in a good school district leaves an
empty house in a worse one.

~~~
Nokinside
Warren is academic expert bankruptcy and commercial law. She is third most
cited academic in her specialty. She is pretty good at economics especially
when it comes to consumer behavior and one of the best politicians overall.

"The Vanishing Middle Class" (2007) is a good book.

~~~
fhood
She is also a consummate politician, who has been known to say misleading and
inflammatory things for political gain. She has also been busy steaming
leftwards, a move that may endear her to young hyper-liberal voters, but does
very little to help my country move past the political chasm that has opened
up, and is crippling our government.

I don't think that she is a bad person, but I do believe that she is bad for
American politics right now.

~~~
awelkie
Not to get too off topic, but I have a hard time blaming the left for the
current political divide in the United States. Saying that someone who pushes
leftwards is bad for American politics because they're not closer to the
"center" seems like promoting a false equivalence.

~~~
fhood
I agree, and I don't blame the left as much as I blame the right. I do however
think that exacerbating the divide is a bad thing.

~~~
s73v3r_
But anything but going closer to the Right is "exacerbating the divide."

------
byebyetech
I wish Jeff Bezos can get his head out of his rocket and do something like
this with his 100s of billions.

~~~
erikpukinskis
A friend of mine was ranting about how evil Bezos and Musk are. I generally
don’t see those two as the worst of the worst, so I spent some time listening
to her thoughts.

Her basic assertion was that the simple accumulation of that much wealth is
itself evil. They could do many things like build schools and since they
choose not to they are evil.

I mentioned to her that they can’t sell their stock without ceding control, so
it might make sense to wait to spend the money. But mostly I was just
interested in absorbing her point.

There was also a secondary claim about an imperative to use one’s social media
platform to correct abuses. But I believe that was a secondary point.

Anyway, I’ve just been tossing that over in my head. Does it say something
about someone’s heart if they aren’t building schools and hospitals the moment
they obtain enough wealth to do so comfortably?

~~~
maym86
The profit comes from the labour of people who work for you. Any profit you
make is the difference between what their true labour is worth and what you
pay them. So unless the owners are adding billions in value by themselves they
are paying people less than the true value of their work.

The extent at which this happens is where some ethical issues lie. If you keep
wages low while making large profit there is a point of view that you are
ripping off your workers and this can be seen as unethical.

Cooperatives are designed to address this by making all workers joint owners.
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative)

There is also the argument that large corporations that legally avoid paying
tax and lobby to keep the loopholes open are making money by utilising public
resources and not paying for them. These public resources support their
workers and help the company to succeed. Bezos for example is particularly
successful at avoiding tax and lobbying to keep it that way. Despite it being
legal it could be considered ethically dubious as he is not contributing back
to a system that helped him succeed.

~~~
BjoernKW
Value creation is not a zero-sum game. A cooperative selling the same products
and services as, say, Amazon might not make the same profit. Coherent vision
and leadership can contribute a lot to the value creation process.

~~~
maym86
> Value creation is not a zero-sum game.

Who said it was?

> A cooperative selling the same products and services as, say, Amazon might
> not make the same profit.

It might make more. It might make less because it's paying it's workers more
fairly.

> Coherent vision and leadership can contribute a lot to the value creation
> process.

Yes, this is also labour and should receive a fair value. Everyone in the
company is a worker but "unless the owners are adding billions in value by
themselves they are paying people less than the true value of their work".

------
pbreit
The most interesting thing to me is that it is eschewing being a charter or
private school and apparently expects to be able to work within the confines
of the local school district and teachers' union.

I've never really understood why this is usually considered difficult or
impossible for such a project.

Also, with 25-30 kids per class, $10k works to $250k-300k per year which seems
sufficient for a teacher, aide, facilities and support.

~~~
bradlys
I too was thinking along these lines but I think these are inflated numbers.

Average class room size is 21.6 for elementary schools that are self-contained
(26 for departmentalized).
[https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/sass/tables/sass1112_2013314_t1s...](https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/sass/tables/sass1112_2013314_t1s_007.asp)
I think the desire is for 20 or less. When you're dealing with children, a lot
of teachers are required.

So let's say LeBron is going for 20:1. Then it's now $200k per class. Let's
say half of that goes to the teacher due to competitive pay and payroll tax +
healthcare + benefits. You're looking at $5k/student for 3 healthy meals a
day, facilities, and everything else.

Doesn't seem like very much anymore. You could dock teacher pay more but it
won't probably be enough to outweigh the cons.

One could also try to up the ratio of students:teachers but then you're just
going to give the kids a worse education and the teachers a much worse
teaching environment. I think having a small classroom size is pretty
important for kids who are struggling as they need more attention. And this
school is literally for struggling kids - so there's gonna be a lot of
competition for attention.

------
hobofan
Off-topic, but can a mod please change the link to the non-AMP version[0]?

[0]: [https://www.sbnation.com/2018/7/31/17634370/lebron-james-
sch...](https://www.sbnation.com/2018/7/31/17634370/lebron-james-school-akron-
i-promise-different)

------
pwaivers
This is such a cool story. I hope it works out for everyone involved.

------
phlakaton
Just yesterday I was doing some research on the state of education in my home
state of California, starting with a transcript of a 2003 Morrow Report TV
program titled "From first to worst." The rough gist is that California for
many years was mandated to allocate approximately equal (and generally
inadequate!) funding between districts to correct inequalities of opportunity
between school districts. Originally, this was done by adjusting how much the
state kicked in above the local district funding; after Prop 13 it became
mostly a question of state allocation, since districts could no longer
effectively raise their own funds.

Foundations arose as a way for parents to ensure proper funding in districts
that were lucky enough to have the donors. So, thank goodness that some
districts haven't fallen through the floor, but we're back in the unequal
situation we were in before.

Since that 2003 report, charter schools and an update to the funding policy
called the "Local Control Funding Formula" have tried to address some of the
shortcomings of the equal-across-the-board policy (namely, woefully inadequate
funding for districts with greater low-income and english-learning
challenges), but our state still funds in the low middle of the pack or at the
dirt bottom of state spending per pupil, depending on whether you take cost of
living into account.

LBJ's foundation would seem to have arisen along similar lines: like CA, the
state is not doing nearly enough to support its public schools, so private
citizens have to try to fill the gap through philanthropy. This is great for
the children of Akron, but the limitations are clear: it's one school in one
corner of the state! I hope this is a shot across the bow that convinces
people that raising taxes to fund education properly is not the end-all
boondoggle that so many people seem to think it is. A superstar per school
doesn't sound scalable to me.

------
chrisseaton
'Public' meaning run by the local government, if that confused anyone else
like me who comes from a place where it means the opposite.

~~~
tialaramex
[[ In the British system the thing that makes a Public School different isn't
whether it's run by the state (those are State Schools) but the fact that it's
open _to_ the public. Historically some schools were exclusively for (children
of) members of an organisation, for example a school might be for Roman
Catholics, or members of the livery company of goldsmiths, or businessmen of a
certain city. The Public Schools didn't care who you were, or where you came
from, only that your money was good. ]]

~~~
chrisseaton
The British term makes so much more sense to me.

British public schools are run by members of the public for any members of the
public (who can pay and pass the exam).

American public schools are run by local government only for people the local
government wants to admit (based on where you live etc).

~~~
untog
> American public schools are run by local government only for people the
> local government wants to admit

Eh? Everyone is admitted to public schools in America. You often don't get the
choose the specific school, but everyone has the right to a place in a school.

~~~
jstewartmobile
Not being able to choose the specific school is a huge deal though.

In the same school system, some of the schools are out-of-this-world, while
others are zoos.

If I had the choice between sending my kids to some of the schools I went to
growing up, or letting them stay home and watch cartoons all day, I'd choose
the latter. At least they're not going to get shivved watching Adventure Time.

------
Invictus0
I'm wondering if this school will be sustainable in the long term. Given the
correlation between low-income neighborhoods and poor school performance, how
is I Promise going to be supported by taxpayers? Many school districts
scrounge for basic supplies; how long will they be able to keep this free bike
program going?

~~~
gremlinsinc
They could make it self-sustaining by adding some business model to support
it. As others have said, maybe buy up and renovate/rent out homes near by
driving up property costs (and taxes), or 'encouraging' college alums down the
road to give back from their success.

Maybe the model itself proves something on a national level, and the
government decides this is the 'future' and earmarks more money for schools
like this...

Or maybe they just get more donations from wealthy people who want to help.
Either way, I'm sure there are ways to offset the costs and keep it going
long-term.

~~~
jhall1468
> As others have said, maybe buy up and renovate/rent out homes near by
> driving up property costs (and taxes), or 'encouraging' college alums down
> the road to give back from their success.

Thus defeating the entire purpose of this school. Gentrifying will result in
the school being surrounded by housing that the students parents can't afford.

~~~
gremlinsinc
That's why I said buy up, fix up, and rent out (at the same rent as before,
but beautifying the neighborhood more) thus raising property value.

~~~
whatshisface
If the property value goes up the rent will go up, because nobody will be
willing to invest in capital construction or home management unless they can
make their money back.

~~~
gremlinsinc
Why not create community 'owned' housing, similar to a worker co-op, where
poorer communities collectively 'own' the location. Everyone pays area-rental
fees, but each month rented = 1 share ownership. Once the mortgage is paid
off, the rent goes towards buying more rental properties and
rinsing/repeating. A % of all rents is divided out by shares to each renter or
ex-renter. A % could also go to LeBron's public school as a donation.

Obviously the longer you stay at a place and the smaller the place the more
shares you'd have in the place. Shares could also = voting rights on
properties/etc... More votes = louder voice.

Think of it as privatized (not government-ran) socialism in the real estate
market.

~~~
whatshisface
If the property values go up, other people will buy the houses surrounding the
collective, forcing the collective to pay more for housing and thereby raising
the rents.

------
misterbowfinger
The most interesting and promising part of this school is the support for
parents:

> Parents can use the institution’s job and family services, study through its
> GED program, or design meals at the on-site food bank to cook at home.

This solution seems way more holistic. It might totally fall on its face, but
I'm really interested to see how it turns out.

------
theklub
I hope this spurs some competition between super rich athletes to build better
schools.

------
lbriner
It is SOOOO nice to see people with money actually putting good ideas into
practice rather than using their money as a platform to spread opinions that
mean nothing or to criticise people who try things instead of doing it
themselves.

------
RickJWagner
I dislike some of what LeBron James has done, but he gets my utmost respect
for this.

If more celebreties put their money to work like James has done, the world
would be a much better place. Kudos!

------
samstave
It would be awesome to also have services available to the parents of the
kids: relationship/job/parenting counseling/classes/etc...

------
calebm
This reminds me of the documentary "Waiting for Superman". It's kind of poetic
that LeBron James is making this effort.

------
pytyper2
What do they mean by "Accelerated Learning"?

------
oliyoung
Greatest basketballer of all time, better human.

------
zjacobi
First: longer days worries me if they aren't starting later. American schools
start WAY TOO EARLY and probably make children chronically tired because of
this. See [https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/parenting/back-to-
schoo...](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/parenting/back-to-
school/canadian-high-schools-resisting-calls-for-later-class-start-
times/article36016933/)

Second: Even if this school has good results, it seems unlikely that it will
scale well, because it's relying on more money (from outside donors, etc.).
You can't throw more money at a problem, then declare you've come up with a
general solution.

From Larry Summers talking with Tyler Cowen:

COWEN: And this is K–12.

SUMMERS: Yeah. That’s likely to be the most effective thing that you can do,
but that you need to be very careful not to succeed by cannibalization. Many,
too many, philanthropists interested in education decide they’re going to set
up a charter school. Only their charter school is only going to admit highly
motivated kids with highly motivated parents.

Their charter school’s going to pay 20 percent more than the regular schools
and cherry-pick the best teachers out of the regular schools. Then they’re
going to be really thrilled about how they have better achievement than the
regular public schools when it’s clear from the nature of their model,
selecting the kids and cherry-picking the teachers, that it is supremely
nonreplicable.

I would say impose a replicability constraint on yourself and innovate in the
area of education. My general view has been that a lot of the way successful
innovation happens is alongside big systems.

(Link: [https://medium.com/conversations-with-tyler/tyler-cowen-
larr...](https://medium.com/conversations-with-tyler/tyler-cowen-larry-
summers-blog-secular-stagnation-twitter-421a69ed84c8))

~~~
JoeAltmaier
This feeds into the 'if everybody can't succeed, then put up roadblocks to
_anybody_ succeeding'.

Sometimes charter schools are there to do exactly what's been described there:
create at least one good school. Because the public system is largely
underfunded/broken. To defy this impulse because it isn't replicable, is to
deny the part the govt plays in creating the broken public schools.

~~~
dragonwriter
> Sometimes charter schools are there to do exactly what's been described
> there: create at least one good school.

Mostly, charter schools select for the best students by, _even if no other
filters apply_ , selecting the students whose parents are engaged enough to
select a non-default school.

There are mounds of evidence that “good schools” in the US—whether traditional
private, traditional public, public-subsidized private charter, or public
charter—are a product of getting the right student population rather than
substantive differences between schools.

> Because the public system is largely underfunded/broken.

That's really not the problem.

The problem is that American _society_ is largely broken, and we expect the
public schools to perform as if it weren't (or to magically make up for it.)

OTOH, the schools are an easy scapegoat and distraction, and because the
problem isn't fundamentally there, there is no risk that changes there will
ever relieve the outcome problems enough for it to stop being a useful
distraction.

~~~
toast0
> There are mounds of evidence that “good schools” in the US—whether
> traditional private, traditional public, public-subsidized private charter,
> or public charter—are a product of getting the right student population
> rather than substantive differences between schools.

I think a lot of this comes down to the metrics used for gauging good schools.
Which are usually test scores, graduation rates, and discipline rates.

Assuming that the test scores measure something worthwile, test scores is
always reported as a point in time measurement -- but really a progression
would be more informative. What I really want to know is will my kid go up or
down or stay the same in test scores if they attend school X, it's not super
important what the average score is ; especially since the progression may
vary significantly based on the input score.

Graduation rates could be low because of many factors outside of school, or
could be high because the standards are low, and are often reported only at
the high school level but kids who don't graduate high school were often not
well prepared at other levels, etc.

Discipline rates can be meaningful, but if one school doesn't expel anybody
because all the children are angels, and one school doesn't expel anybody
because they haven't noticed the large numbers of murders during recess, the
numbers look the same.

~~~
a1369209993
> Discipline rates can be meaningful, but if one school doesn't expel anybody
> because all the children are angels, and one school doesn't expel anybody
> because they haven't noticed the large numbers of murders during recess, the
> numbers look the same.

I think any town not named Sunnydale would notice the dwindling class sizes in
the latter case.

~~~
dragonwriter
> I think any town not named Sunnydale would notice the dwindling class sizes
> in the latter case.

Sunnydale noticed it, too.

~~~
a1369209993
Well, they noticed dwindling class sizes. If their discipline problems
included murders during recess, that would likely be lost in the noise from
vampires and other supernatural hazards.

------
ghobs91
Am I going crazy, or is every comment hidden in here?

------
mohamedmansour
That’s amazing work Lebron did, he didn’t shut up and dribble.

------
stuckinarut
From a linked article > I Promise kids’ school days will start an hour later
than their peers.

fantastic.

------
mkirklions
Open question that wasnt really discussed in the article-

Why are charter schools demonized?

My local area HATES them, and I'm not sure if its politics or worthwhile.

EDIT: Why did I get 5 downvotes?

~~~
elsherbini
I worked for 2 years as an AmeriCorps volunteer in Atlanta Public Schools.
I'll preface this by saying I don't know if I believe charter schools are bad
or good, but here are some arguments against them:

\- Charter schools take money away from neighborhood public schools. Most
schools are funded per-capita, so fewer students means less money. But many
costs are fixed/discrete (e.g. school nurse costs N thousand dollars).

\- Charter schools have inflated performance metrics. Often charter schools
don't serve special needs students. More than that, charter schools bias
towards engaged and interested parents. Because of policies like No Child Left
Behind, it is really bad for local neighborhood schools to have all of their
high performing students leave for charter schools.

\- Corporatization is evil. Charter schools often run more like a business
than a socialized institution. Some even pay kids for good grades. Often, the
success of a charter school depends on marketing, and successful marketing
depends on performing well on metrics. Charter schools are then incentivized
to "teach to the test" and potentially force out students who don't perform
well. "When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure."

~~~
ryanx435
> Charter schools have inflated performance metrics. Often charter schools
> don't serve special needs students. More than that, charter schools bias
> towards engaged and interested parents. Because of policies like No Child
> Left Behind, it is really bad for local neighborhood schools to have all of
> their high performing students leave for charter schools.

Thats an interesting way of saying that charter schools get better results.

~~~
jahnu
It doesn't say that at all.

"better results" should mean given a similar set of students. If you cherry-
pick the inputs don't expect comparing outputs to be the same.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Given the set of high-ability students, it does seem that charter schools have
better results.

There's an attitude that everybody should do poorly together, and that's
better than anybody succeeding. Like a bucket of crabs, each clawing at the
others trying to get out and pulling them back in that keeps the poor, doing
poorly. And well-meaning ivory-tower types fuel the culture with idealistic
'fairness' arguments.

~~~
Retric
The data does not back this up.

Charter schools like elite colleges gain 90% of their reputation from
rejecting average or below students. There is variation among school quality
adjusting for incoming students, however that exists for both normal and
charter schools with many charter schools preforming worse than expected and
many public schools preforming far above expectations.

However, if you want to support the value of some institution or approach it's
really easy to ignore this fact and create biased research.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Citation? Its not about reputation (irrelevant) but accomplishment. And in the
OP case, we're talking about one school helping one demographic. I wish this
new school all the best luck in helping these kids.

~~~
Retric
_the predominance of such studies in the United States does not show positive
impacts on average for the charter school sector._
[https://www.brookings.edu/research/on-negative-effects-of-
vo...](https://www.brookings.edu/research/on-negative-effects-of-vouchers/)

 _Recent research on statewide voucher programs in Louisiana and Indiana has
found that public school students that received vouchers to attend private
schools subsequently scored lower on reading and math tests compared to
similar students that remained in public schools._
[https://www.brookings.edu/research/on-negative-effects-of-
vo...](https://www.brookings.edu/research/on-negative-effects-of-vouchers/)

Or do you want the actual research papers?

~~~
JoeAltmaier
And are charter schools about reading and math? Cherry picking results is easy
to show whatever you like.

Charter schools are about - whatever each is constituted to be about. Like you
can't go to a hardware store and grab a random tool and rate it on how well it
drills holes. You shouldn't rate charter schools on your favorite metric. Some
are about upper-class folk raising their kids with better music and art
appreciation. Others are about escaping backward school boards. Sometimes they
are in areas so backward, that the charter school _still_ underperforms the
national average. But if its an improvement for that area, its an improvement.

~~~
Retric
That's not 'better results' that's different results.

It's perfectly reasonable to look at the magnet school model as a good thing.
However, you now have to defend the associated sacrifices.

I personally feel K-12 is to early to specialize so improvements at the cost
of general achievement is a poor use of taxpayer funds.

~~~
tialaramex
The "sacrifices" involved in any decision here are actual children too.

For example for me specialization couldn't come too early. Specializing even
at age 12 would have been fine. Everything else could have fallen by the
wayside, I only was interested in and good at exactly one thing and only at
University did I finally meet anybody who actually challenged me, only there
did I find specialisations within the specialisation that were all attractive.
In some ways the last 3-4 years of school were just waiting.

For plenty of other kids they got all the way to an undergraduate degree in
some general subject area they didn't care about, still with no clear idea
what they were about, no real direction, forcing them to specialize earlier
would have hurt them severely by cutting off options.

Without fairly intensive Chemistry (and preferably some Biology) by age
sixteen, you are not going to become a good medical doctor. Without putting
many hours a week into mathematics (not just enough to grasp a vaguely
analytical subject like engineering, serious fundamental mathematics) by age
eighteen you are never going to become a serious mathematician. And sucks to
be you if, aged twenty-five, you at last find out you are a natural with a
basketball, or at soccer, or dozens of other sports which require peak
physical performance that's unattainable in middle age.

All our options here suck, somewhere a kid will be betrayed by whatever
happens, if they're able to specialise, some of them will pick wrong and
regret it. No fault to them, just bad luck. If they can't specialise the
mandatory general achievement will prevent some of the most talented in
specific fields from ever achieving what was possible.

I have no recommendation here, just commiserations.

~~~
Retric
There are plenty of short term advantages to specialization. But, diminishing
returns generally apply and the standard public school curriculum is a
relatively low bar. So, IMO we should generally stick with them, but after
that the sky's the limit.

That said, you have a good point that some fields really do require a lot of
early work. I just think they should be added as supplement not simply
replacing the foundations of a good education.

------
JackFr
Terrible writing alert:

"Per the state of Ohio, Akron’s schools were given just $10,028 in state and
local funds per student in 2016 — more than the statewide average, but still a
relatively low figure for a city of a little under 200,000."

Relative to what? You've already told us it was higher than the state average.
To call it relatively lower means that there are some who receive more, but
we're in the dark as to who they are.

~~~
GFischer
Well, I don't think it's terrible, it says so there: relative to other cities
of 200.000 inhabitants (probably in other states).

According to Google, it's below the U.S. average, and N.Y. cities spend 20.000
or more per student (up to 60.000 in one case).

[https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=66](https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=66)

[https://247wallst.com/special-report/2015/09/28/cities-
spend...](https://247wallst.com/special-report/2015/09/28/cities-spending-the-
most-and-least-per-pupil/)

------
triviatise
The #1 factor for improving schools would be public school choice. Competition
makes the participants in any system better. The schools need to use a lottery
for acceptance of students.

We can drop all the regulation around testing results and simply let people
choose which public school they go to. Some schools will be great and have a
lot of demand. Some schools will be crap and will have little demand and they
should get a reset.

The big challenge will be getting kids to the schools, but this can be done in
conjunction with public transit using rideshare type shuttles to create custom
routes

The next biggest factor is demand from students themselves. Making education
exciting like sports could work. Create academic contests that can be
televised, have small prizes at the school level (thousands of dollars), tens
of thousands at the regional level, and millions at the state or national
level.

Televise the competitions and have a variety like debates, math, science, etc.

~~~
lbotos
In High School, I went to a magnet school where you had to be in the top 5% of
your middle school class to be accepted. We took in students from something
like 10 school districts. Freshman year was insane because the quality of
student was all over the place. There were segments of students who couldn't
read.

There are absolutely socioeconomic factors that played into this, and "letting
bad schools fail" is only going to hurt the students that are already hurting.

I struggle a lot when it comes to education because "teaching to a test" is
the bane of teachers everywhere, but if we don't set a standard, how will we
measure success?

~~~
jonbarker
Test culture promotes lack of growth mindset as students tend to associate
their capabilities with their scores from an early age. The earlier we start
stratifying students by test scores the more we are likely to develop adults
who believe in fixed ability and who don't want to challenge themselves. This
is exacerbated when you start separating students into physically different
schools based on test scores.

