
Cities’ Offers for Amazon Base Are Secrets Even to Many City Leaders - moonka
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/05/technology/amazon-headquarters-hq2.html
======
dkarl
Austin city council member Leslie Pool, pictured and quoted in this article,
is a notorious pseudo-progressive NIMBY. When she speaks in generalities,
everything that comes out of her mouth aligns with my political ideals and my
concerns about growth in Austin, but at the same time, she fights tooth and
nail against anything that might help.

She talks incessantly about affordable housing while at the same time doing
her best to prevent any new housing from being constructed. She wrings her
hands over lack of transit (her favorite excuse for opposing density) and
supports transit as an idea while always finding an excuse to oppose any
specific proposal for improving it.

I have fears about Amazon as well (it could be fine, but it also could be
horrible, and I know Austin will be fine without it) and they're the same as
the ones she articulates, but to me they mean nothing coming out of her mouth
when I know her only agenda is protecting her single-family-with-yard-and-
three-cars constituents from sharing space with apartment dwellers and public
transit users.

~~~
0x4f3759df
How I wish we could build European block housing (is this the correct term?)
in this country. The buildings are shoulder to shoulder and take up the whole
block.

visual example:
[https://www.google.com/maps/place/Prague,+Czechia/@50.079818...](https://www.google.com/maps/place/Prague,+Czechia/@50.0798188,14.416089,73a,35y,39.37t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x470b939c0970798b:0x400af0f66164090!8m2!3d50.0755381!4d14.4378005)

~~~
dingaling
I grew up in terraced housing in the biggest social housing scheme outside the
Warsaw Pact, under the Northern Ireland Housing Executive.

You never have privacy. I could hear my neighbour having sex. Party music
vibrated through the floors regardless of dampening in the walls ( we tried
cork sheets ). The back gardens were all overlooked. Everything you did was
known. It was like growing up in a commune.

When I see new terraced developments I am angry at the human cost being paid
just so a contractor can save the cost of one wall and a metre of land per
house.

~~~
mr_overalls
Modern construction methods have largely solved these acoustic/privacy issues.

Building codes throughout the United States require a measure of sound
insulation between floors of multi-family dwellings. They specify a minimum
architectural design standard of privacy of 50 STC (Sound Transmission Class)
and a 50 IIC (Impact Isolation Class). The codes also state that validation of
the minimum noise criteria can be field measured and the field measurements
shall not be less than a 45 FSTC or a 45 FIIC.

Of course, contractors sometimes find ways to cut corners. But in general,
neighbor-noise is a solved problem.

~~~
oneshot908
Yeah sure, but Cannabis fumes from the shared heating system are not. My
friends are selling their downtown condos to GTFO to the suburbs.

------
sincerely
I respect Toronto's proposal a lot, in light of this: absolutely no specific
incentives offered, just an overview of the benefits of working in
Toronto/Ontario/Canada from an employee/employer's perspective. I think it was
a strong action both in terms of attracting Amazon (there's no other non-US
cities being considered, so they are already hugely differentiated) and in
terms of reassuring the constituents that the government will not bend over
backwards for corporations (especially considering the Google smart city in
development).

------
davidw
> Corporations have choices. They could go about their business, and simply
> choose the best location, the one that makes the greatest business sense,
> and invest accordingly. Or they can as Amazon, GE, and dozens of others, go
> through the ritual of pretending to entertain a wide range of proposals, and
> use the leverage of competing bids to sweat the best possible deal out of
> their preferred location

[http://cityobservatory.org/cash-prizes-for-bad-corporate-
cit...](http://cityobservatory.org/cash-prizes-for-bad-corporate-citizenship-
amazon-edition/)

Whoever 'wins', may not come out ahead.

[https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/9/10/what-can-i-
do-...](https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/9/10/what-can-i-do-to-have-
you-love-me)

------
pasbesoin
Democracy: When you can't tell your citizens what you're up to, you already
have a problem.

It is also a very hypocritical example of, speaking generally of these things,
business decrying "the nanny state" while actually engaging and encouraging
it, full force.

It's just that _they_ want all the nanny's attention and preferential
treatment.

------
refurb
Why is Amazon negotiating/receiving offers from outside the gov't? Seems odd.

They could pick a specific city and the city council could say "hell no" or
just be unable to pass legislation to deliver on it.

~~~
gervase
My cynical side says that this is a feature, not a bug - a litmus test to see
whether or not the selected city will be politically pliable under Amazon's
significant financial leverage.

Any city that can't pass (or force through) favorable legislation isn't one
that Amazon would want to choose long-term anyway, especially viewed in the
context of their relationships with local governments in Seattle [0]. The key
point here is that this is a descriptive feature that's hard to ask about, but
easy to test for.

0: [https://www.forbes.com/sites/rogervaldez/2018/07/31/good-
new...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/rogervaldez/2018/07/31/good-news-or-bad-
trying-to-understand-the-repeal-of-seattles-head-tax/#709534ce7f2f)

~~~
fipple
Yeah, my guess is that the principal function of HQ2 is to increase
negotiating leverage with Seattle.

~~~
JJMcJ
Not unlike Apple bullying Cupertino. They got their huge HQ without much
alteration.

Speaking of Cupertino, right near there, a huge battle to allow I think 1,000
units replacing a dead shopping mall. All the usual complaints of traffic.

So 1000 apartments would have intolerable traffic, but 25,000 people in one
building won't, seemed to be the argument.

------
docker_up
The only reason why they would do this is for plausible deniability. If it
turns into a disaster, then they can claim they didn't do anything about it.
It's pretty disgusting to think we're that stupid, but journalists will just
take the lazy way out.

------
empath75
I’ll be stunned if they end up anywhere other than northern Virginia and if
nova gives than much more than token incentives. They have a huge presence
there already and if they want to negotiate for big government contracts it
helps to be nearby.

~~~
jsoc815
Same, although I can see some cooperative deal w/ DC and possibly MontCo (MD).

However, I heard the Virginia's governor speak about this broad topic, and
given what he'd already indicated the state had done to attract tech and
defence sector bis, I pretty much consider NoVA to get something.

He also mentioned that consultants do much of the footwork to feel out which
which locales will provide the be$t offers. He indicated that such consulting
is actually a billion dollar industry and that to even be a viable contender
in such races, cities/states must offer _some_ incentive(s).

------
forkandwait
What prevents the elected city officials from voting No on the package once it
is accepted by Amazon and revealed? Anything with legal teeth or just public
pressure?

~~~
maxxxxx
If it works like in Congress they will have only very limited time to
understand the package. And more importantly they won't have had any input
during negotiations. There is a lot of pressure so it would be much easier to
add their concerns during the process instead of saying "No" at the end. They
pretty much have to vote with a gun held against their head.

~~~
forkandwait
So that gun is... What? Besides losing the next election, of course.

------
throw2016
Usually tax deals or tax holidays are offered to entice prospective companies
but given Amazon's US tax burden is already nearly zero what else can these
cities offer, free land, protection from unions?

Amazon seems unlikely to choose a city randomly, its likely to already have
decided which city suits it best in terms of logistics, efficiency, cost and
available labour pool so this seems to be an elaborate game to squeeze its
preferred city.

~~~
greeneggs
In 2017 Amazon recorded a $137 million refund for US federal income taxes.
However, nationwide it paid $211 million in state corporate income taxes. It
also pays property tax and sales tax (on things Amazon itself buys).
Reportedly Amazon paid ~$250 million total in taxes to Washington state in
2017. [1]

Maryland's "Promoting ext-Raordinary Innovation in Maryland's Economy (PRIME
Act)", signed 4/25/2018, provides credits against all these kinds of taxes
[2].

[1] [https://www.seattletimes.com/business/amazon/amazon-
paid-250...](https://www.seattletimes.com/business/amazon/amazon-
paid-250-million-in-washington-state-and-local-taxes-in-2017-source-says/)

[2]
[http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/webmga/frmMain.aspx?pid=billpage&...](http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/webmga/frmMain.aspx?pid=billpage&stab=01&id=sb0877&tab=subject3&ys=2018RS)

------
stuckinarut
Capitalism is disgusting.

World's richest man is going to rob two cities blind with promises of jobs.
Just a massive giveaway to the man who literally has the least need in the
world.

Guess they don't want the people actually having any say.

> pitched the idea of Amazon University, with a customized curriculum
> developed in partnership with Amazon and local universities

Just gonna go full company town I guess.

> added $38 billion to Seattle’s economy from 2010 to 2016.

and made it impossible to get a modest tax passed.

> “They are about ending inequality and creating more inclusive cities,” said
> Richard Florida, a professor at the School of Cities and the Rotman School
> of Management at the University of Toronto. “Now they’re in a game competing
> with one another to throw money at one of the most powerful companies in the
> world run by one of the world’s richest men.”

Yup, because they want to be able to say they brought amazon in. It fucks over
the people who already lives there, increases inequality, and ultimately
doesn't really help that many people other than Jeff.

~~~
dang
This comment violates the HN guidelines. We don't want ideological battle here
(not to mention low-rent rants). That's not because we're capitalist pigs or
socialist moochers; it's because it's all repetitive and therefore boring, and
it leads directly to flamewar. All scorched earth is the same.

You've been posting a lot of this for a long time. We ban accounts that do
that, so I've banned this one. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome
to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll use the
site as intended. In the meantime, would you please not create accounts to
break HN's rules with?

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
goliatone
I don’t have a bone to pick in this back and forth, however there’s something
I don’t fully understand from dang’s comment: what does “low-rent rant” mean?
Never heard the expression before and I don’t know if it’s a pun to the
subject of the article or something else entirely referencing the tone of the
OP’s comment.

~~~
dang
By "low-rent" I just mean easy, cheap, and of dubious value.

------
rayiner
DC should just let Amazon run the city government as Amazon sees fit. I
wouldn’t mind living in an Amazon company town, I bet they’d shape things up
around here.

~~~
CryoLogic
Yeah, high-ish salaries. Everyone works until 10pm. Get off work and get
drunk. Complain about how Amazon took away your life and cost you your
marriage, but hey they offer free marriage counseling now as a result (true
story).

Rinse and repeat.

That's what I see around SLU.

Amazon is incredibly efficient, and that's good. But please don't let them
take over a city with their work life culture.

~~~
tjr225
If anyone wants Amazon to take over any sort of public space they should come
experience the local vitriol towards all things Amazon here in Seattle.

I was interviewing at AWS just last year and one of the interviewers(in a
Virginia/remote work setup) went so far as to admit he doesn't wear any amazon
branded shirts or swag when he is in town.

~~~
oneshot908
That's not Amazon's fault. That's the rage of the incompetent lashing out at
the most convenient target rather than focusing on bettering their own
situation. And yeah, Amholes are a thing, just stay away from the Amholes
(hell I once punched one after he intentionally shoved me and the way he
backed down when he realized I was ready to beat him to a pulp was priceless),
but I don't personally buy into the current agenda of punishing nerds for
being nerds that seems to be in vogue these days.

