
Ask HN: How little work can you get away with and still have the basics? - aardbei
My goal in life is to have maximum freedom: minimal obligations, minimal stress, minimal responsibilities, while maintaining a private room to live in with basic utilities and food. Then I want to spend my life working on my own projects in my own time, on my own terms, at my own pace, in solitude.<p>This is practically how I&#x27;ve lived for years under my parents&#x27; roof until recently when we were displaced. Now I want to regain what I lost.<p>Maybe I&#x27;m greedy, spoiled, and undisciplined, but the idea of having to spend a large amount of my time and energy working in order to have these fundamental needs met is unacceptable to me. The pressure to regularly exhaust myself with financial obligations that I&#x27;m fundamentally not interested in makes it too difficult for me to live comfortably enough to comfortably pursue the things I actually care about, thus defeating the purpose of meeting those needs to begin with.<p>I&#x27;m not convinced it is possible for me to combine &quot;work&quot; and &quot;pleasure&quot; in a way that pays the bills without making serious compromises.<p>Realistically, what are the best options for coming as close to this ideal as possible?
======
rboyd
You don’t mention your citizenship or your age, both of which effect the
advice I would give somewhat.

You’re basically opting in to a life of poverty until you monetize your
projects. In the US you can find land in the rural Midwest wired with
fiber/electric for $2k/acre. $5k to drill a well, $10k for a used camper. Then
your monthly nut is just food, fuel, utilities, and property taxes ($350/mo).
Upwork/codementor a few hours per month to cover this. Or full-time remote
work for enough time to pay everything off and stash away your runway. Part of
the game is balancing time and expenses (will you garden/raise animals to cut
food expenses? heat with wood? maintain your yard?).

My fiancé and I did something similar after leaving typical big city jobs, but
I think it takes a rare person/relationship to make it work well.

The part where age factors in is you need to know yourself and your partner
very well. Skills matter, sometimes they can decide your security/survival.
Emotional fortitude. Assume you are well fed in a quiet room. You still won’t
be building anything amazing or unlocking the secrets of the universe if your
mind won’t stop thinking about being lonely. If you are disciplined enough to
treat it as a stepping stone along your path, if you have a remarkable
partner, or if you’re ok being alone and mature enough to know that you always
will be, then it can be a good strategy.

~~~
pasbesoin
Rural land with fiber data? Do tell.

Any tips on locating/verifying such properties? This is a move I'd like to
make (well, probably putting more than a camper on it).

~~~
rboyd
I spent a lot of time overlaying provider coverage maps with Zillow listings.
Sometimes listings will call out fiber internet or the name of a known
provider.

Google queries like rural fiber coop <state> should send you on a good path.
There are a surprising amount. In our specific case it was [https://www.co-
mo.net/](https://www.co-mo.net/) in Morgan County, Missouri. It’s even more
niche because the county has no buildings restrictions, so
experimental/cheaper building methods are possible.

Email in my profile for more info.

~~~
pasbesoin
Thank you!

------
spyckie2
There's a couple opinions I have on this.

The first is if you really want to pursue this ideal, you can look for
arbitrage opportunities. This means spending a lot of time taking multiple
opportunities and selecting the ones that have the least amount of effort to
reward, and doing this many times over your lifetime.

The second (and this is an opinion that you may not like) is that optimizing
for no responsibilities is something you should reconsider as the goal in
life.

From my experience, taking on responsibilities is a key character trait of
people who can create strong communities, build organizations, care for
others, and develop their environment around them. Taking responsibility is
also not an innate talent, but one that you learn... by taking responsibility.

A life of avoiding responsibility closes off some paths that are really
interesting to take, especially as you mature and people aren't always getting
on your nerves so much. First is that responsible people receive a lot of
resources in the form of trust, money, loyalty, etc, because others know they
can handle these resources responsibly. Second is that the attitude and drive
to positively affect the world around you is developed alongside
responsibility, and separating the two, while doable, is much more
challenging. Third is that the alternative to escaping responsibility is
building up your skill in handling responsibility, which is very doable (in 2
areas, mainly - delivering on the things expected of you, and managing what is
expected of you). If you resolve to have such an attitude, 5-6 years down the
road you'll be equipped to take on larger than life challenges you never
dreamed you could handle.

The essence of building something is taking responsibility, and this applies
to your side projects as well if you want your side projects to be used by the
rest of the world. Handling pressure is a skill that you have the pay the
price to learn but is very much worth it.

Just my 2c. Had a friend whose whole family was introverts and wanted to run
away from society. The grandfather was very lonely at the end of his life
because of his decision to go hermit, it made my friend realize that he didn't
want that to be his end.

My own youth was a life of no pressure/no responsibility just finding ways to
make myself feel happy. I consider them my zombie days - not really alive,
just trying to fill base needs. Nowadays I have too much responsibility, but
the stress and difficulty are offset by the rewards in so many ways beyond
just feeling happy - you have real control to make your life the way you want
it, and you develop more and more capability over time.

~~~
rocannon
"especially as you mature and people aren't always getting on your nerves so
much"

I found that as I got older, people got on my nerves _more_! The first few
times people did something annoying, it was like, "whatever". After the 100th
time, it was like "here we go again", and I was getting ready to explode. The
only thing I found that helped was avoiding such people, and when you're
forced to rub shoulders with them due to work constraints, it can lead to a
lot of stress.

~~~
malux85
I found as I get older people get on my nerves less.

When the “here we go again” bit comes, there’s a few ways to react:

If you can’t really control the output, then predict it. I see how far ahead I
can predict (including their questions and answers) and laugh when I’m right.

Predict then outcome and preempt it with a joke or even better a conclusion
that was 3 steps ahead. People will think you’re a wizard.

If you don’t like the people then Troll hard. Bait them to reveal their
ignorance in the most embarrassing way possible. Just for the fun of it.

I’ve found the experience that comes with getting older is an enormous source
of entertainment

------
keiferski
My first answer has already been covered by everyone else: you'll regret this,
it's a bit childish, and you probably will stop growing as a person.

That out of the way: this is very doable if you can do the following things:

1\. Earn at least $1,500 per month from a remote source of income. This can be
a part-time job, a business, or even just saved-up money. If you somehow have
$200,000 or more, you can almost live off the interest / long enough to build
whatever business you want. At $1,500 per month, 200k will last you over a
decade. See
[http://www.reddit.com/r/leanfire](http://www.reddit.com/r/leanfire) for more
information.

2\. Are okay with living in a place like Poland, Czechia, Hungary, Slovakia,
eastern Germany, Spain, Portugal, Croatia, Serbia, rural Italy, etc. If you're
European, this is easy. If you're not, you'll also have to deal with visa
issues. In America, there aren't as many places where you can live an okay
life on $1,500 a month, but it's doable in smaller towns in the midwest or
south.

~~~
ASpring
I think there are a great many places in the US where you can live a good life
for 1500 a month. In many college towns you can find an apartment for <$500 a
month and there will still be a decent amount of culture from what the college
brings in.

I lived in one of these towns for a few years and was incredibly happy with my
lifestyle and spent around $1500 a month.

~~~
keiferski
True but your lifestyle in say, Belgrade or Budapest would be much better.

------
deytempo
What kind of projects do you like to work on in your spare time? I have always
disagreed with the inefficiency of everyone doing their own thing and not
working together. If everyone collaborated and shared resources, no one person
would need to work more than 3 days a week. Furthermore why not do away with
the idea of a week entirely.

~~~
aardbei
As for my personal projects, I have a lot of interests that I like to explore:
programming, physics, language learning and linguistics, art, literature, game
development, etc.. The main reason I don't feel like there is a way to
monetize these projects effectively is that I feel I'm extremely picky about
what exactly I want to do and how I go about it. I also find the pressure that
that would entail to be self-defeating. It's important to me that I reserve
the freedom to be picky about my projects and to pursue them in solitude and
under no pressure.

That's an interesting idea though. I have been thinking a lot about the
benefits of collaboration in order minimize the amount of work necessary to
satisfy the individual costs of living. I feel like it's easier to find work
that pays for more than you actually need than it is to find lesser work that
pays for only what you need (not to mention finding only what you need without
extras or extra cost to begin with).

------
arandr0x
Stay at home spouse would work, if you're flexible about the solitude. Some
kind of religious order, if you're flexible about the "own projects" (there
will be community service and other people's projects).

In most places you can be a full time artist if you literally only have a room
(in a shared apartment) by means of teaching classes, busking, applying to
every government program in sight, etc. That's only most places. You may need
to move to a larger city.

------
kristianp
Have you read the 4 hour work-week, by Ferris? His idea is to spend lots of
time setting up a business and automating it so that it takes little time to
maintain.

~~~
simplecomplex
Which, hypocritically and ironically, Ferris does not live by. He works almost
constantly, and his business isn't automated and entirely dependent on self-
promotion. I wouldn't call a company with a bus factor of 1 and which requires
physical speaking appearances and engagements automated. McDonalds is
automated. Amazon is automated. Writing, speaking engagements, podcasts, is
the opposite of automation.

The 4 hour work week is a lesson in marketing not automation: Selling desire
(not having to work) is very, very effective. Another way to look at it: What
made Tim Ferris famous and rich? Selling the 4 hour work week.

------
p0d
Your message reads like you are either speaking out of disappointment or you
have overly ideal views of work.

Don’t live your life in a metaphorical or real box :-)

~~~
UK-Al05
Sounds like he has very negative views of work to me...

------
quickthrower2
Fuck it if you want to live this way go for it.

Lots of people sayimg you won’t grow etc. in this thread, but does that mean
we have to be in a rat race, compete and screw up the planet just to be
“normal”.

So Good luck, hope you find a way to make it work. If it was me I’d start I.
thailand where you can have meals take away for $2 and that takes away the
cooking and needing a kitchen etc. live somewhere cheap. I’d go for Phuket to
avoid the city life.

------
anonymouzz
Are you up for working 8 hours a day? My experience is that many jobs (even in
the top companies) allow you to stay relatively unmotivated after a certain
point which is fairly easy to reach (1 to 2 years). You still have to do
something, though, but not nearly as much as one might think.

~~~
aardbei
Thanks for your reply!

8 hours seems like quite a bit to me. I feel like I would most likely burnout
much too quickly at that rate to last even a couple of months. I was unable to
complete my college degree for this reason and dropped out.

That sounds interesting though. When you say you're allowed to be relatively
unmotivated, does that correspond to being able to spend a lot of those "work
hours" however you like without penalty?

~~~
anonymouzz
Depends on the company. I had a friend who spent most of his time at work not
doing any work, but for example browsing catalogs and fixing his new apartment
(while financing that with his salary). Although after a year or two he
started to hate it and quit, changed to something that actually requires his
attention, as I think he was afraid he's losing skill this way.

I'd say anything between ~30% and ~70% "time-weighted attention" required
within those 8 hours a day doesn't surprise me. And when I say "required" I
mean if you put in less you'll be eventually fired.

Edit: this is not to say that working hard doesn't pay off, it certainly does
if the company is set up properly (and many are). I'm taking about bare
minimums here.

------
xupybd
I don’t recommend going down this road. As you grow older you may regret it.

Working can be rewarding. The rat race sucks but getting older you may want a
family and reasonable income is really important for a family.

Maybe there is a way you can participate in the economy without being so
unhappy about it?

~~~
krageon
While this is a good response in terms of likely outcomes, it's important to
respect OP's right to make his own decisions. In this case, he did make a
decision and decided to gather advice on how to fill that in on a forum of
people he trusts. It would be very aggravating to me to receive replies that
essentially say "what you want is just a phase, you should stop wanting that
and want something else".

~~~
xupybd
I respect the OP is in charge of his own life. I’m simply offering some input
that may not be obvious to someone younger. People helped me out in a similar
way. I’m so happy they did.

Can you elaborate as to why you are aggravated?

~~~
krageon
I suspect that while we both got similar advice in the past, we respond
differently to people telling us not to do things. I don't love just being
told "what you want is a bad idea" especially if it's as nebulous as general
life advice/direction. For this reason I end up not listening to it, even
though there might be good underpinnings. I try to let people make their own
mistakes, there is not really a wrong choice to make - it's their life after
all.

This is all assuming that "don't do this thing you're doing" is something that
the OP has heard before, of course. It seems pretty obvious that it's not
something most people would find a good idea. I assume that's one of the
reasons they're asking here.

~~~
xupybd
No one enjoys hearing people disagree with their decisions but sometimes it's
the best thing for us. There are wrong choices that people make. I've made
lots of those choices. I've also had some help avoiding some of those choices.

Please don't miss understand my response. I'm not saying don't do what you're
doing. I'm saying the path they're considering may not put them in the place
want when they're older. Trying to hint that they may be happier if they
shoulder some of the burden they're trying to avoid. That while at the moment
it might seem like a good deal there is a hidden cost. As you get older you
realize that you only get so much time and you may wake up one day wishing
you'd gotten further in life.

There is also a lot of joy that comes from taking on responsibility and
mastering it. It would be a shame to miss out on that.

------
altairiumblue
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjfClL6nogo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjfClL6nogo)

I know this isn't what you're asking for. But I think it's closer to what you
need.

~~~
kentrado
You know what he needs? A stern talk from poppa Peterson?

I think calling him a man-child for realizing that this is a raw deal, deeply
condescending and unnecessary.

It is a raw deal. The "normal" approach to work in our society is soul
crushing. I'm 28 years old and I have been unhappy about my job since I left
college. The thing I spend most of my time on, more than 40 hours a week, is
something I hate doing, therefore I hate my life. But hey, I have car, and a
bank account and the fridge is full, so it is all worth it?

I'm still exploring other ways. There are some jobs that I think will be able
to satisfy me. If not, I want to do exactly OP plans to do, because I'd rather
be poor and happy than middle class and miserable.

~~~
altairiumblue
I think when someone's goal is to go back to "life under my parents' roof",
calling them a man-child is perfectly appropriate.

> I'd rather be poor and happy than middle class and miserable.

Those aren't your only two options though. You can set up a life that includes
responsibility and is incredibly rewarding. In fact, being able to handle the
responsibility is often where the sense of doing something meaningful comes
from.

edit: To put it simply, the better reaction to realizing that "this is a raw
deal" isn't to ask "How can I run away from this?", but instead ask yourself
"How can I become a person who can handle this and thrive?"

~~~
kentrado
>My goal in life is to have maximum freedom: minimal obligations, minimal
stress, minimal responsibilities, while maintaining a private room to live in
with basic utilities and food. Then I want to spend my life working on my own
projects in my own time, on my own terms, at my own pace, in solitude.

Nowhere there did he say that his goal is to live under his parent's roof.
That's something you need to willfully misunderstand in order to disparage
OP's lifestyle aspirations.

There was an old man working at a postal office at the age of 50, he decided
to say fuck it and he quit his job to become a writer. Everyone else said he
was crazy leaving well paying job and a future pension. He didn't care, he
said that he would rather starve than spend another day doing that senseless
grind. He was prepared to die. His name was Charles Bukowski.

I only have words of encouragement for someone who wants to dedicate his
limited time on this earth pursuing his own projects and aspirations.

I think your responses say more about you than about OP.

~~~
altairiumblue
me > I think when someone's goal is to go back to "life under my parents'
roof", calling them a man-child is perfectly appropriate.

you > Nowhere there did he say that his goal is to live under his parent's
roof.

OP > This is practically how I've lived for years under my parents' roof until
recently when we were displaced. Now I want to regain what I lost.

If we are looking at the same text but seeing different words, we can end this
discussion.

~~~
kentrado
Let me help you understand what OP wrote. It is not that difficult.

OP's goal as clearly stated has nothing to do with living with his parents. He
wants time to follow his personal projects. When he was living with his parent
he was able to do those projects. But now that that's no longer possible, he
wants to regain what he lost in terms of free time and responsibility so he
can get back to working on his personal projects.

We can end this discussion right now. I have nothing else to say to you.

~~~
altairiumblue
I don't want to get involved in pointless back-and-forths but I think our
disagreement comes from how we see OP.

I think you're reading his original post and seeing a person who wants to go
against the typical path that's laid out in front of him, have a unique
lifestyle and the freedom to choose his own work.

When I read it, I'm seeing a spoiled child, who doesn't want to grow up or do
anything difficult but lock himself alone in a room for the rest of his life.
And he's hiding all of this behind aspirations for more freedom.

------
rocannon
It may be tough for people to give advice, because I think your options are
going to vary a lot, depending on where you live.

The first thing I'd recommend, though, is that you keep track of all your
expenses, if you aren't doing this already. This gives you the starting point
for deciding how much money you really _need_ to make in order to _live the
way that you want_. Please keep in mind that expenses can increase as you age:
for example, health insurance premiums can skyrocket depending on where you
live, and things like hearing aids, expensive dental work, and so on, may not
be covered by insurance. You may not want to worry about this stuff now, or
maybe you'll get lucky. Anyway, if you track your expenses now, at least
you'll have a handle on what you need for the immediate future, barring
unforeseen emergencies.

A few years back, my goal was very similar to yours. I started tracking every
single expense to figure out how much money I actually needed to survive per
year. As someone else mentioned, you can amass a pile of money and live off
the income stream from that, provided you trust the "4% rule" or one of its
variants. Take a look at these blogs:

[http://www.retireearlyhomepage.com/](http://www.retireearlyhomepage.com/) \-
guy who worked till about 40 and retired, living off income from his savings

[http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/blog/](http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/blog/)
\- guy who worked and made a chunk of money, continues to work on his own fun
projects that make an income stream

[http://earlyretirementextreme.com/](http://earlyretirementextreme.com/) \-
guy who lived a really lean lifestyle with just a small income stream (iirc 4
h/w doing jobs off craigslist) (but then he went to work for a hedge fund,
iirc).

Anyway, seems like you want to check out the last link first.

You may also want to read "Your Money or Your Life" by Joe Dominguez and Vicki
Robin.

Someone else mentioned Timothy Ferriss' "Four Hour Work Week". I agree that it
can be helpful, but I think he makes it sound easier than it actually is to
set up a small lifestyle business. So I'd suggest reading it for inspiration
more than anything else. Also it's a bit outdated.

I think maybe what you're asking is this: you don't want a FT job because you
don't really need all the money you'd make from a FT job. You'd rather have
much more free time, and screw the FT job. If this is what you're asking,
definitely check out the retire early extreme guy.

I'm sure you're aware that you might change over time and may suddenly
discover a passion for sports cars, a spouse, travel, or whatever. So, if you
can squirrel away any extra money, it won't hurt. Just keep that in mind, it
can happen.

