
India Proposes Chinese-Style Internet Censorship - ChrisArchitect
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/14/technology/india-internet-censorship.html
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goombastic
I've said this before, software & tech companies are enabling this sort of
authoritarian transition in countries and enabling the powerful to stifle
voices of dissent.

It is more than likely that the connected world wide web will fraction itself
off into regional entities soon enough. With things like data analytics and
AI, controlling populations is even easier. The Chinese model will succeed.

In India, a Russian style klepto-plutocracy is slowly taking over. It's only
natural that they would want this transition kept hidden.

~~~
sytelus
This is nothing to do with tech companies. Government have lot more money and
resources to fund such efforts. In countries such as India, people view
government as a protector and provider as opposed to countries like US where
people view government as something they permitted to exist with terms of and
conditions of minimal interference. Well, at least in theory. Such countries
are risk at authoritarian Internet. Even if tech isn’t invested, these
countries will invest and make it happen.

~~~
rchaud
> This is nothing to do with tech companies.

The same companies whose product is customer data and usage patterns? That
they use to develop behavioural models, affinities and recommendation engines?

It's one thing when you are a device maker and are required to provide in-
country servers and backdoor access as a condition of doing business.
Blackberry (then RIM) caught heat for that in 2011 when they provided that to
India and the UAE.

It's a different thing entirely when gargantuan companies like Amazon or
Google that control a significant part of the Internet's infrastructure begin
to shift away from public-facing business models and towards high-margin
contract work for governments.

You said it yourself:

> Government have lot more money and resources to fund such efforts

and they're adept at wasting it as well. You don't think Amazon, Google etc
look at IT contracts in the public sector and salivate at the opportunity?

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wtmt
India has never been a country with a good amount of freedom of expression.
This censorship and (as usual) vaguely defined laws and policies will slowly
kill democracy. Organizations like Internet Freedom Foundation [1], SFLC
(Software Freedom Law Centre) [2] and others are fighting against these
policies from a legal standpoint as well, but the courts are very, very slow
(as I've mentioned in the past here) and don't take cognizance of grave
matters like this in a timely manner.

Anyone here who's an Indian citizen and is living in India — please donate to
the Internet Freedom Foundation [1], which recently started a membership
program for funds and SFLC (Software Freedom Law Centre, whose site seems to
be down at this moment) [2]. Others, _please do not send money_ in any form
since these organizations are not legally allowed to get foreign money!
Instead, encourage your friends and acquaintances in India to donate.

Disclaimer: I'm not associated with these organizations in any way.

[1]: [https://internetfreedom.in/](https://internetfreedom.in/)

[2]: [https://sflc.in/](https://sflc.in/)

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surferbayarea
The US would have gone down the same route if WhatsApp or Instagram had
happened to be acquired by a Chinese company (and hence under control of
Chinese govt). Having your citizens data and communication under control of a
foreign government is not something any government would be ok with in the
long term. It will be interesting to see the reaction of the US government(and
of Silicon Valley) when the next TikTok becomes the major communication tool
in the US.

~~~
est31
> Having your citizens data and communication under control of a foreign
> government is not something any government would be ok with in the long
> term.

I do agree, but note that currently, the US is having control over more grand
area citizen's data/communication than other nations have control over US
data.

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filereaper
Seems to be a trend with multiple countries now, there was an article about
Russia "unplugging" recently. More nails in the coffin of a borderless
internet.

~~~
toasterlovin
China is the shining example that there’s a whole lot of sovereignty to be
gained and not much of anything to be lost by cutting off American tech firms.
My guess is that the internet divides along old geopolitical lines: the
Anglosphere, continental Western Europe, Eastern Europe and Russia, China and
its sphere of influence, India, etc.

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snr
On one hand, I disapprove of this with the fear of India becoming all watching
and dissent suppressing like China. On the other hand, India has a real
national security need to know everything that goes on, thanks to its
neighbor(s?).

On a parallel note of "foreign" technology companies, I believe we will see
data sovereignty being a fundamental right/resource of nations (like natural
resources) as a means to fairly redistribute internet technology generated
wealth.

~~~
wtmt
> On the other hand, India has a real national security need to know
> everything that goes on, thanks to its neighbor(s?).

The good old "national security" crutch. It's always used by those in power to
spread surveillance, censorship, restrict freedom of expression, etc. A lot of
the issues within India as it concerns the likes of Twitter, Facebook, Google,
etc., are internally manufactured...and the main culprits are the largest
political parties themselves. [1]

India does have constant threats from Pakistan and China, but censorship
within the country is not going to help tackle those.

[1]: [http://time.com/5512032/whatsapp-india-
election-2019/](http://time.com/5512032/whatsapp-india-election-2019/)

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sssk
How is it different from this, for instance?
[https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-02-14/regula...](https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-02-14/regulating-
facebook-twitter-and-instagram)

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forkLding
Fake news does need to be tackled, people in India have been lynched. Although
the article tries to make the deathes seem lighter than it is, it can always
happen again. It's either this or actually verifiable news with legitimate
sources can only be posted.

~~~
ShorsHammer
Perhaps encouraging better education and instilling critical thought in a
population is better? Having an arbitrary line of censorship based on what a
handful of people deem "fake news" and preventing it being seen by millions is
a dangerous path to walk down.

~~~
rchaud
> Perhaps encouraging better education and instilling critical thought in a
> population is better?

In a population of > 1 billion where access to schooling is spotty, and the
quality of said schooling is spottier?

"Critical thinking" is a state of mind that takes generations of progress to
develop, and can still be reversed. The US population in general may be more
educated on average, but if presidential opinion polls are anything to go by,
a minimum of 40% of the population arent' practicing critical thought.

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jrs95
The U.S. could easily stop this by threatening to withhold or tax remittances
to India if they move forward with it.

~~~
rchaud
Why would the US care? There's no political capital to be gained by coming out
against a policy that will likely make US software and surveillance firms
rich.

~~~
jrs95
No, it won't. It will enable India to cut out U.S. service providers as much
as they want. That hurts us more than economically, it reduces our governments
ability to gather intelligence there as well.

This level of state control if the internet is a very bad thing for the U.S.
even if you don't take any humanitarian considerations into account.

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ronsor
can India really afford to do this? what about the economic effects?

~~~
pcr0
The same thing was said about China. Furthermore, it's likely that foreign
tech companies will just bend over backwards to self-censor, without having to
resort to a GFW. They wouldn't want to be shut out of both China and India.

~~~
schuke
China is different in that when the government spends on things like the GFW
thete’s no checks and balances from an effective parliament.

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908087
Google is on it.

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dmode
Elect fascists, get fascism. Indian governments are always flirting with
complete authoritarianism and are always eager to randomly ban things (e.g.,
any mention of Gandhi in a negative light, smoking in movies and tvs). Not a
surprise that the nationalistic fervor whipped up my Modi's government
provides a perfect moment to push these desires further. Watch how the public
lines up behind this and unwittingly censor themselves in the name of
religious protections and nationalistic sentiment. Also fascinating how Mukesh
Ambani is shilling for this law to convert Reliance Jio to an Indian Tencent.
Amazing how fascists and monopolists are always in bed.

~~~
mc32
I see what you're saying, but there is a disconnect here: elect fascists [a
strong claim] get fascism but then you say the public lines up behind it. So,
it appears to be democratic?

This is a bit odd:

>Under the proposed rules, Indian officials could demand[removal of content
due to being] invasive of privacy... but also: "Another provision would weaken
the privacy protections of messaging services"

Is this ambivalence towards your claimed authoritarianism a relic of the
republic's more socialist days when it was non-aligned-aligned with the USSR?

~~~
wtmt
> I see what you're saying, but there is a disconnect here: elect fascists [a
> strong claim] get fascism but then you say the public lines up behind it.
> So, it appears to be democratic?

In the era of fake news and propaganda that would put "1984" to shame, people
supporting something doesn't mean it's favorable to others and to themselves.
There so called "IT cells" of some political parties that spread
misinformation and bring out nationalistic pride.

There is a dualism that's commonly seen in India: any foreigner who has
visited would've encountered random people wanting to take photos with them
(even if those people would never see the photos, but that's not as much an
issue nowadays since many people have camera phones), and this is because they
consider white skinned people as superior, richer, exotic, and fast and loose
(this last one is about women), etc.; at the same time, many people are also
made to believe (through fake news and propaganda created by the government
and its ministers) that India had a rich history of cultural and scientific
advancement _unlike any other country in this planet 's existence_ and that
foreigners have stolen all these as well as constantly suppress the "facts".
This latter point brings about a wellspring of support on various policies,
even without understanding how these may be bad for the citizens supporting
them.

~~~
sbmthakur
> In the era of fake news and propaganda that would put "1984" to shame,
> people supporting something doesn't mean it's favorable to others and to
> themselves. There so called "IT cells" of some political parties that spread
> misinformation and bring out nationalistic pride.

While some have IT Cells, others have outsourced their propoganda campaign to
firms like Cambridge Analytica. So I guess almost all major parties are in the
mix.

Fake news is a global problem and even US based institutions are having a
difficult time dealing with it. Not sure how it can be used as an argument to
point India as "fascist".

> There is a dualism that's commonly seen in India: any foreigner who has
> visited would've encountered random people wanting to take photos with them
> (even if those people would never see the photos, but that's not as much an
> issue nowadays since many people have camera phones), and this is because
> they consider white skinned people as superior, richer, exotic, and fast and
> loose (this last one is about women), etc.; at the same time, many people
> are also made to believe (through fake news and propaganda created by the
> government and its ministers) that India had a rich history of cultural and
> scientific advancement unlike any other country in this planet's existence
> and that foreigners have stolen all these as well as constantly suppress the
> "facts". This latter point brings about a wellspring of support on various
> policies, even without understanding how these may be bad for the citizens
> supporting them.

I've been made to believe that India had a rich history and culture since I
was like five. Statements like India was a _golden bird and what not_ were not
rare to hear. From what I remember there was no current government or
ministers at that time. Again I am not sure how this relates to fascism.

