
Repair cafés waging war on throwaway culture - wcunning
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/15/can-we-fix-it-the-repair-cafes-waging-war-on-throwaway-culture
======
Faaak
As a repair café volunteer, I've found two drawbacks to being a
volunteer/having repair cafés:

\- A small subset of people buy shitty products (1$ bicycle lamps, lights,
cheap-as-shit appliances like clocks, hoovers, …). I have no problem fixing
stuff, and showing them how to fix stuff, but I always refuse to try to repair
really cheap stuff. It's not even repairing at this point, but more sticking
it back together. When this case happens, I explain in good term that they
should buy a slightly better quality next time; it'll last them longer

\- these cafés attract in general "alternative" people. I've got no problem
with that, but I'm a bit fed up with conspirationists, anti-nuclear, really
left-wing people.

But in general, it's a really rewarding experience !

~~~
blhack
>these cafés attract in general "alternative" people. I've got no problem with
that, but I'm a bit fed up with conspirationists, anti-nuclear, really left-
wing people.

If anybody ever finds a solution to this, every hackerspace in the world would
love to know what it is.

~~~
jacobolus
It’s unsurprising (and probably inevitable) that counter-cultural social clubs
tend to attract nonconformists.

~~~
zeth___
There isn't a culture to be cultured against any more. This isn't 1960 where
there is one medium that connects 75%+ of people. What you have now are a lot
of different cultures.

~~~
emodendroket
That's definitely not true. Travel to some country on the other side of the
world and you can appreciate for yourself that, subcultures aside, there is a
large body of shared cultural beliefs and practices that most of us more or
less share.

~~~
zeth___
Including the counter cultures.

I've yet to meet genuine American socialists, even your hard communists sound
like Christian Democrats with some odd ideas of race thrown in.

~~~
emodendroket
I don't know if I'd say that, but the persistent idea that we're all charting
a unique ideological course from first principles is, I think, somewhat
characteristic.

------
diego_moita
Also, we should praise companies that actually encourage and support repairing
behavior.

Case in point: Baratza coffee grinders. They establish repairing as one of the
companies top priorities and part of their mission.[0]

They sell almost every part necessary for fixing their grinders[1]. They
deliberately make them easy do disassemble and reassemble and provide lots of
instructions on how to fix most problems, both in print and in video.[2] They
also have a program of buying used grinders to resell them refurbished.
Whenever a model is upgraded they also sell the upgrading kit for owners of
old models.

[0] [https://www.baratza.com/social-
responsibility/](https://www.baratza.com/social-responsibility/)

[1] [https://www.baratza.com/product-
category/parts/](https://www.baratza.com/product-category/parts/)

[2]
[https://www.baratza.com/troubleshooting/](https://www.baratza.com/troubleshooting/)

~~~
biztos
I've had a Briggs and Riley[0] suitcase for about 10 years.

It came with a "lifetime guarantee" and so on. About 3 years ago it suffered
some damage in handling, the normal abuse by Celebi[1] and I would definitely
not consider it a manufacturing defect. But the promise was that it could take
anything the airlines and their zombie hordes[1] could dish out, so I sent it
back for repairs.

They repaired it within a weak and returned it at their cost, and I've been
traveling with the same suitcase ever since. Had they not offered the repairs
I probably would have bought a new suitcase.

[0]: [https://www.briggs-riley.com/](https://www.briggs-riley.com/)

[1]:
[http://www.celebiaviation.com/en/yazi.php?id=75](http://www.celebiaviation.com/en/yazi.php?id=75)

~~~
SirZimzim
That's definitely a great benefit of higher end luggage. Other brands with
similar service are Rimowa and Tumi. With Rimowa I had a case where someone
cut the into the luggage with a knife all around the zipper and they repaired
it.

------
lorenzsell
Recently I almost threw away our stove because one of the burners melted. I
was about 2 seconds away from submitting an order online for a new stove when
my wife asked how we were going to dispose of the current one. Suddenly, I
realized how tragic it is to throw something so massive. I got my screw driver
out and tinkered behind the stove for 20 minutes, ordered a couple parts,
soldered a little here and there, and had the whole thing 100% operational
with a total output of about 2 hours. I honestly could hardly believe it
myself. I did the same thing with a broken chainsaw too. And it’s so rewarding
to actually fix something.

If you’re even remotely handy it’s remarkable how easy it is to fix things
that you might otherwise just throw away and replace.

~~~
cgriswald
Even if you can't fix it, there is value in tinkering with it. Over the years
I've gotten to the point where I understand my limits, when I might be able to
stretch those limits, and when to call in the professionals or just chuck it
and buy a new one. Even when I can't fix it myself, I have a general idea of
_what 's wrong_ so I can be much more confident in my decision to replace it;
and if I end up calling in a professional, I can be confident I won't be
getting ripped off.

The internet has also helped a lot. Specifically, a lot of howto videos show
common gotchas, which in the past are the things that have usually caused me
to either give up or to turn a $10 repair into a $500 replacement by making
things worse...

~~~
scarecrowbob
Lemme second this comment. Everything you say is good.

One thing to keep in mind is that you need to understand when things can be
dangerous. Like old tube-based equipment.

I still have a screwdriver that has divots scarred into it from discharging a
couple of 500V can capacitors in an old (solid-state) stereo. Now, that's a
great lesson... discharge caps if you're not sure about them, and I am glad I
learned it.

I'm also quite glad that I did that on purpose with a screwdriver and not on
accident with my finger.

I'm even more glad that I did some basic research to know that giant caps
ougtta at least be thought about if you're gonna peek around in that kind of
stuff.

~~~
jotm
Having been shocked enough to have a mini PTSD episode when seeing a flyback
transformer, did anyone actually die from a normal cap discharge? Unless it's
a large subwoofer capacitor, the stored energy is not enough to do deadly
damage, even if it's in the thousands of volts, in my experience...

~~~
CogitoCogito
Apparently the charge in computer power supplies can kill :/

[https://www.cnet.com/news/teen-electrocuted-while-working-
on...](https://www.cnet.com/news/teen-electrocuted-while-working-on-unplugged-
computer/)

------
mulmen
I ride a 48 year old Honda motorcycle. This baffles some people who didn't
know a vehicle of that age could still be on the road.

It's not mint or original but it's nice. Everything works fine. The valves
need to be adjusted soon. The transmission isn't silky but it shifts, probably
a bent shift fork from abusive riding some time in the last 5 decades.

Everything about it is designed to be maintained by the average person. With a
little mechanical knowledge and some patience anything on that bike can be
fixed. It even comes with a tool kit.

There are a couple of repair shops in town that rent out spaces to work on
bikes like this. They keep a mechanic on staff to provide help and even supply
tools. I rent a garage from a friend and a few of us keep our old bikes going
there.

Not all old things were built like this but this bike is a shining example of
how well made things can last lifetimes.

~~~
bfirsh
I just got a 20 year old Land Rover and, after having attempted to repair
consumer electronics and modern vehicles, I am stunned at how easy they are to
repair.

Firstly, it is an entirely mechanical car, which makes everything much
simpler. But the truly stunning bit is the documentation and community.

All of the workshop manuals are available online. That is good enough for most
tasks, but if something particularly complex needs diagnosing, there are
forums with all the information you need.

When you need to get parts, an exploded diagram of the entire car is available
online with part numbers. Both the original manufacturer and several third
parties still make parts. Somebody has even made a price comparison
website.[0]

I wish all the things I owned worked like this. I understand the economics
often don’t work out for smaller, cheaper things, and there is no incentive
for the original manufacturer to provide these things, but surely there is
enough of a community to support common repairs in a similar way.

[0] [https://www.landroverworkshop.com](https://www.landroverworkshop.com)

------
warmcat
One major hurdle that I face regularly when something is broken is getting the
tools I need to fix it. Buying tools that I may not need for another 5 years
and won't likely be used anywhere else just does not make any sense to my mind
even though replacing the device will be likelier more expensive. Also, there
aren't guides to repair all devices/equipment online. If I open it, I am
afraid I won't be able to put it back together. I love the idea of Repair cafe
and would likely make a few visits if there is one nearby. (Any repair cafes
in NYC?)

~~~
remir
That's the thing I don't like about Apple products. I swapped the HDD for a
SSD in my father's Mac Mini and had to order a kit with all the right special
screwdrivers and special tools just for that.

~~~
snarfy
Fixing is not their goal, and I'm OK with that. I really dislike Apple for a
lot of reasons but their hardware is not one of them.

If you look at some of the breakdowns on ifixit, there might be an area where
they needed 4 screws. In another laptop, they would have been identical
screws, but in the Apple they are all different sizes. Each one is specific to
the area it's holding so they could cram in more components. It may not be as
easily repairable but it is good engineering.

------
snarfy
I've fixed 3 out of 4 dead 27" LCD monitors and 2 of 2 dead 47" TVs by opening
them up, finding the power board, and replacing all of the large capacitors.
No diagnosis or testing at all.

~~~
keithpeter
That used to be a good recipe for fixing radios back in the 1960s/70s as well!
Used to just unsolder one lead and check the resistance of the capacitor.
Quick kick then fall back to infinity good/swing over to low bad

~~~
natch
>Quick kick then fall back to infinity good/swing over to low bad

What does all that mean?

Quick kick = apply some voltage?

So with a capacitor you are looking for infinite resistance (no current flow)
as a sign that it’s good, or some current flow (low resistance) as a sign it’s
bad? Did I get that right?

~~~
namanyayg
Not OP but yes that is correct, capacitors work by building potential. A
functioning capacitor starts at 0 and moves to ∞.

------
97s
My fridge went out several years ago. It was one that we got when we bought
our house from the previous homeowners. We made an agreement when we put in a
bid. When it went out I was like man, we are going to have to pay to have this
repaired. I called some companies and the estimations were in the $500-600
range. Being in a hard time I decided to just tinker, for the first time in my
life. About 4 hours later of research and testing I determined I just needed a
fuse. I went to a shop about 30 minutes away and bought a fuse for $5. Put it
in and saved the fridge, and thank goodness for the dry ice tip that saved all
my food in the freezer.

Tinkering is now my go-to for anything that breaks. I hope that it rubs off on
my son as I think I missed out on life not knowing how to tinker as much as I
should have. It is really refreshing to fix something that is important to
you.

~~~
jotm
Yeah some repair companies will quote the maximum amount they may actually
need to charge (replacing the compressor and regassing, for example), and then
actually charge that even if they replaced a simple fuse :/

------
denysonique
There is no such thing as 'throwaway culture' instead there is economics. In
developed countries it simply is cheaper for the consumer to purchase a new
LCD monitor than simply pay for a skilled engineer's labour which would arrive
at the same price in addition to the uncertainty and time this takes.

In less economically developed countries, it is exactly the other way around,
electronics are rarely being thrown away, in this case the repair engineer's
time is significantly lower than the price of most western electronic
products.

~~~
emodendroket
The economics you are describing create throwaway culture. The problem with
this is that economics cannot override ecology.

~~~
yjftsjthsd-h
> economics cannot override ecology

The annoyance is that economics should reflect ecology.

~~~
dade_
We have an environmental levy on electronics that supposedly covers the cost
of recycling the product. However, I have never seen any reports on whether it
truly covers the recycling cost or if it has improved landfill diversion.

~~~
adrianN
"Recycling" electronics means shipping them to Africa where they're first
dumped and then burned to recover some of the metals. The results are as
disastrous as you would imagine, both for the environment and the people. This
is what it looks like:
[https://www.theguardian.com/environment/gallery/2014/feb/27/...](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/gallery/2014/feb/27/agbogbloshie-
worlds-largest-e-waste-dump-in-pictures)

------
fvdessen
In my experience, the main draw of repair cafes is not actually repairing
things, but the social experience. The fact that things are repaired in the
open, with drinks & snacks available creates a small community setting that is
attractive for many people regardless of the actual purpose of the gathering.

~~~
johnchristopher
Same thing with my local "buying vegetables from the producer" group. It's not
working locally, short term or long term but it is a really good social
playground with like-minded people.

Incidentally both attract the same kind.

------
fanzhang
What if our intuition is wrong about the relative costs, both economical and
environmental of some repairs? In particular, just because a small part of a
larger whole is broken, doesn't mean repair is the more economical or
environmentally friendly act.

To take a facetious example, suppose I broke 300 random pixels of a 1000x1000
LCD display that cost $100.

On visual rough intuition, it's seems clear that less than 1% of the screen is
broken, it intuitively would seem absurd to toss the LCD screen versus fix it.
But automated manufacturing technology is so good that it really doesn't cost
a lot to make a totally new one.

On the other hand, your time is relatively valuable, as are some replacement
parts. Suppose you spend 10 hours ordering parts, soldering wires, debugging,
testing, etc to get it to fully functional. Why not spend a fraction of that
time at work, and another fraction of time volunteering at park cleanups or
buying carbon offsets?

The numbers above may be off in one way or another, and depends on the
product, your pay, and belief of environmental impact of things like throwing
stuff away vs volunteering / carbon offsets.

But one point seems clear to me -- which is that if I broke what visually
seems like 10% of a $100 product, the fully-burdened real economic and
environmental cost is a lot more than $10 to repair it. And the lynchpin is
the automated production makes new stuff relatively cheap.

~~~
opencl
Clearly some things are not worth repairing, and there is a cost-benefit
analysis to be done but there is just a staggering amount of stuff that is
easily repairable that gets thrown away. TVs get thrown away that need a few
dollars worth of power supply capacitors. Phones get thrown away over a $10
battery. Refrigerators get thrown away over a $20 thermocouple. Graphing
calculators get thrown away because TI was too cheap to solder the battery
contacts and the spring contacts get loose after a while.

I think these types of cases are far more common than people putting a ton of
effort into something that isn't really worth repairing.

~~~
conanbatt
If there really is such lost value on this, then maybe a startup could capture
it, by re-purchasing things, fixing them and reselling them.

But there is a reason why that is not such an easy business. Take for example
startups that buy furniture when you move out and have to re-sell it:
furniture is worn but usable, and it is very hard to sell at a profit after
handling it.

Many times we can see a market "inefficiency" or lost opportunity value,but
its not easy to make it real.

~~~
detritus
Why must such things be driven by start-ups and not simply culture?

~~~
tzakrajs
I am going to guess that people secretly like when their gadget breaks because
it gives them an excuse to buy something new.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Because billions upon billions is spent on reinforcing the idea that we should
throw away something that's "out of fashion" and have a new thing, because new
things make you feel great. You want to feel great, right? So throw away that
old thing - get a new thing.

Being able to find a part to fix something makes me feel way better about
myself than increasing the pile of junk being sent to be re-mined in some
Chinese junk-yard.

~~~
tzakrajs
Totally agree!

------
Lunatic666
Those cafes are a great idea! I recently opened a high quality blender (forgot
the brand) and found a cog made partially of metal with one small part made of
plastic which will break first due to wear and tear. Otherwise this little
motor would run forever.

Is it normal these days to put in breaking points to artificially shorten the
life of appliances or does this have a purpose?

~~~
sevensor
That little cog might be more like a fuse -- a part of the system that's
relatively easily replaced and designed to fail first.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
And so the company send a spare one in the box when you buy it, yes? Because
they wouldn't be so crass as to make you hunt down a part that cost them a few
pennies and disables the machine would they?

Same issue for me with food mixer, mostly metal, key part is plastic and gets
stripped, can't be replaced. Same with bread maker, rubber belt decays and
company don't make the part available.

~~~
lopmotr
Perhaps it was to protect the user, not the machine. If you drop a spoon in,
it might break the fuse before pinging it into your face? Or it might have
been a sliding contact that needed better wear performance than metal on
metal, or it might have been an odd shape that was expensive to make from
metal.

------
jimnotgym
There is a great feeling from being able to fix your own stuff. I encourage
everyone to learn. I have spent half of my life not being able to afford to
buy new and as a result I learned to fix things.

One of my favorite fixes is the LCD TV in front of me. It came to me with a
wide black bar down the screen. I skim read something about this on other
TV's, opened the back up, looked for the board that had a ribbon cable to the
screen as the bit that would need replacement. The board looked fine visually
(no dry joints, burning or exploded caps). I wiggled the ribbon cable and the
black bar disappeared! This was on Black Friday two years ago, so while
everyone else bought new TV's I got one for free.

------
beefsack
The numbers on e-waste per region but adjusted for population (very rough,
with rounding errors):

    
    
        Region       %    Pop   Adj
        ---------------------------
        Oceania    0.7  0.038  18.4
        Europe    12.3  0.741  16.6
        Americas  11.3  1.001  11.3
        Asia      18.2  4.436   4.1
        Africa     2.2  1.216   1.8
    

Would have been more interesting with the Americas split too.

~~~
shoo
There's more detailed per-country E waste statistics in the "Global E-waste
monitor 2017" report, see Annex 3 at the end [1].

Here's per-capita E-waste metrics for a subset of countries that might be
interesting (because they produce high levels of per-capita E-waste, or have
large populations, or both). I've added a median per-capita income column for
reference, from Gallup [2].

    
    
        Country    E-waste   Median income
                   kg/inhab. kUSD/inhab.
        ----------------------------------
        Norway       28.5    19.3
        UK           24.9    12.4
        Denmark      24.8    18.3
        Netherlands  23.9    14.5
        Australia    23.6    15.0
        Germany      22.8    14.1
        France       21.3    12.4
        Belgium      21.2    10.2
        Austria      20.9    12.3
        Spain        20.1     7.3
        Canada       20.0    15.2
        US           19.4    15.5
        Japan        16.9    10.8
        S. Korea     13.1    11.4
        Russia        9.7     4.1
        Argentina     8.4     4.1
        Mexico        8.2     2.9
        Turkey        7.9     2.5
        Brazil        7.4     2.2
        Thailand      7.4     1.8
        S. Africa     5.7     1.2
        China         5.2     1.8
        Indonesia     4.9     0.5
        Philippines   2.8     0.5
        Pakistan      1.6     0.5
        India         1.5     0.6
        Vietnam       1.5     1.1
        Bangladesh    0.9     0.6
    
    

[1] - [https://www.itu.int/en/ITU-D/Climate-
Change/Documents/GEM%20...](https://www.itu.int/en/ITU-D/Climate-
Change/Documents/GEM%202017/Global-E-waste%20Monitor%202017%20.pdf)

[2] - [http://news.gallup.com/poll/166211/worldwide-median-
househol...](http://news.gallup.com/poll/166211/worldwide-median-household-
income-000.aspx)

Edit: as per the global E waste monitor report, there is a large amount of
variability between countries in terms of the rate that e-waste is "collected"
versus being disposed of by other methods e.g. in landfill. For example,
Norway is at the top of the list in terms of mass of raw e-waste produced per
inhabitant, but also has a high e-waste collection rate of 74% . In
comparison, Australia only has an e-waste collection rate of 7.5% with the
remainder going to landfill.

It'd be interesting to know how effective "collection" of waste is after it is
produced versus prevention of that waste in the first place.

There's a bunch of interesting EU e-waste data here [3].

We can see in [4] that Norway's "recycling rate of e-waste", defined as the
"collection rate" multiplied by the "reuse and recycling rate" is 50% . From
the above table we know that Norway's collection rate is 74% so the "reuse and
recycling rate" must be about 2/3 . But, the "reuse and recyling rate" is
"calculated by dividing the weight of the WEEE that enters the
recycling/preparing for re-use facility by the weight of total treatment of
WEEE" \-- i.e. it doesn't appear to measure how _efficient_ the recycling and
re-use itself is, in terms of output, it appears to just measures how much
loss there is before we get to the recycling / reuse stage.

[3] - [http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/waste/key-waste-
streams/wee...](http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/waste/key-waste-streams/weee)

[4] -
[http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/table.do?tab=table&plugin=1...](http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/table.do?tab=table&plugin=1&language=en&pcode=t2020_rt130)

~~~
shoo
Re: efficiency of recycling, there's an interesting paper focusing on the
efficiency of precious metals recovery during e-waste recycling:

Assessment of Precious Metal Flows During Preprocessing of Waste Electrical
and Electronic Equipment -- Chancerel, Meskers, Hagelüken, Rotter [1].

Here's my summary of the categorisation by mass of 1000 kg of input e-waste
(ignoring the uncertainty quantification in the paper):

    
    
        Category             Mass (kg)
        ------------------------------
        Aluminium                 22.0
        Copper-rich              122.3
        Ferrous metals           331.7
        Non-Ferrous metals         4.3
        Other *                  146.4
        PCBs                      31.6
        Plastics                 264.8
        Precious-metals-rich      52.8
        Rubbish, filter dust      24.0
        Total                    999.9
    

(*) "Other" includes wood, hazardous materials, etc.

This paper focuses on the efficiency of the process in recovering precious
metals, which would be of interest from an economic perspective to anyone
operating the recycling and recover process:

> From the point of view of the process operators, the results of the test can
> be qualified as “disappointing” because only about a quarter of the gold and
> palladium and a tenth of the silver are sent to output fractions from which
> precious metals will be directly recovered. Compared with the recovery rates
> of major elements such as iron, aluminum, and copper, the recovery rates for
> precious metals are very low. Most of the precious metals go to the most
> mass‐relevant fractions (plastics and ferrous metals). These fractions have
> relatively low concentrations of precious metals (24 g/t of gold and 8 g/t
> of palladium in the plastics, 24 g/t of gold and 5 g/t of palladium in the
> ferrous metals; [...] but the considerable mass of the outputs makes the
> flows of precious metals very relevant.

There are of course other ways to measure the efficiency of a recycling
process -- you could focus on energy efficiency, resource efficiency,
pollution, etc.

[1]
[https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1530-9290...](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1530-9290.2009.00171.x)

------
kqr
This is slightly off-topic, but I suspect the title attracts the right people
and nobody else has been able to answer:

I came across an old PS/2 keyboard I'd really like to get working. I can best
describe its symptoms as "it appears to be stuck in a boot loop." The LEDs go
on for what could be the time it takes to run the self-test, then briefly go
dark before it repeats. It does this indefinitely, as far as I can tell.

At first I thought it was an old capacitor across the power lines ( I assume
as a low pass filter for unstable PS/2 power supplies) that had started
leaking, causing it to brown out after some duration. However, replacing the
cap did not appears to have changed nothing. I don't know what to do next and
I have very little equipment to play with. Anyone have any ideas on where to
turn to?

~~~
sigstoat
the cap across the power lines also provides a reservoir of power closer to
the little microcontroller and other bits inside of the keyboard. an old
keyboard might actually expect to be able to draw more power than a modern
ps/2 port cares to provide, which would cause the microcontroller to reset at
some point during its initialization process.

you could try to check that by putting a fast voltmeter across the power lines
at the keyboard end and checking for drops.

you could also just try to fix it by replacing the cap with a higher
capacitance one. maybe double or triple whatever capacitance is already in
there. (can't go too high or the motherboard might think you've shorted the
power line.)

might also check the resistance between power and ground in the keyboard (when
it is disconnected, of course) and make sure that it hasn't developed any
shorts or otherwise inappropriately low resistance between the power rails.

seeing how it behaves on different motherboards or some usb<->ps/2 converters
might be informative, too.

in the unlikely event you're in the vicinity of boulder colorado, i'd be happy
to look at it.

~~~
kqr
This seems somewhat likely and very interesting. No internal shorts, I have
tested that thoroughly.

> you could also just try to fix it by replacing the cap with a higher
> capacitance one. maybe double or triple whatever capacitance is already in
> there.

Would, for testing purposes, two or three of the same capacitance in series
do? I think the next step up I have on hand is like ten times the
capacitance...

I'll see if I can find another motherboard with a PS/2 port. Unfortunately I'm
located in Stockholm, Sweden, so no luck with Boulder. :(

~~~
sigstoat
> Would, for testing purposes, two or three of the same capacitance in series
> do?

nope; put two of three of what you've got in there already in, in parallel,
that's how you sum capacitance. (internally they're huge plates held apart
from each just the tiniest little bit, with capacitance =~ surface area. more
caps in parallel makes more surface area, so more capacitance).

if we were using ideal capacitors, nicwilson's suggestion would be be fine.
non-ideal caps have ESR, though, which will burn up some of the power we want
to feed into the microcontroller if/when it tries to draw too much.
paralleling caps lowers the effective ESR of the lump of capacitors capacitor.

> I'll see if I can find another motherboard with a PS/2 port.

there are also actual ps/2 to usb converters available as well. (not the
little dongles that came with keyboards; those were just for keyboards that
knew both protocols and needed physical conversion.)

something like [https://www.amazon.com/TRENDnet-Converter-
Universal-10-4-10-...](https://www.amazon.com/TRENDnet-Converter-
Universal-10-4-10-9-TU-PS2/dp/B0007T27HI/) is probably just smart enough to
perform the conversion, but not smart enough to limit the power going to the
keyboard, so i bet you can pull 500mA through it, a fair bit more than the
275mA guaranteed to ps/2 keyboards.

------
crispyambulance
I absolutely do enjoy repair cafes, they "pop-up" in my town sometimes using a
borrowed facility and folks just show up with tools and/or stuff they want
fixed.

It is amazing, sometimes, how simple the repairs are. More often, however,
repairs certainly are possible but parts, tools or information just isn't
available during the very short time-span of the repair clinc. People end up
getting turned away with a diagnosis of what's wrong but there's no practical
way to repair it on the spot. I see these more as an affective exercise that
shows people that, yes, it is possible to take stuff apart, figure out what's
wrong and probably fix it.

For these things to be practical, they would have to be more permanent or
regular and take-on additional services such as a tool-library (like a regular
library except you check out power-tools instead of books).

But actually, if you look for it, there certainly is some serious repair-
culture going on in SOME neighborhoods in the USA and in many other places in
the world. Once you get away from big box stores, many independent hardware,
appliance and electronics stores have people that regularly fix things. In the
USA it might be frowned upon as ghetto or scammy (and sometimes they are), but
many of you would be surprised what folks are able to do with basic equipment,
a little knowledge, and some willpower.

------
pasbesoin
I get longer life out of things than most people. My Subaru is 18 years old
and still going just fine. Unfortunately, its gas tank -- residing above both
the power train and parts of the suspension, is otherwise intact but starting
to leak at its horizontal seam. An open-ended, expensive job to replace -- you
have to drop everything below it and its unclear how many of those suspension
parts would have to be replaced due to age and deterioration.

I'd like to spray a fuel-tolerant liner into it. If I can find the product and
someone -- or the tools -- to do it.

Anyway, the point I wanted to make: We are making _so damned much_ of this
stuff. And I also think we may become "energy rich" as solar and other "next
generation" power come online. In my opinion, as much of this stuff as
possible should be made to be as fully recycle-able as possible. If it can be
made a matter of just having enough energy, then melt it down wholesale and
separate, ensuring that ensuing volatiles are stripped of their metals and
then heated into component atoms or molecules we can collect or tolerate the
release of.

We can't do it, yet. And certainly not at scale. But, especially with control
of the inputs, maybe we are closer than we think.

Closed loop use would also mean less mining and destruction of the environment
from production (as opposed to disposal).

Meantime, DRM and the like that artificially limits recycling? A pox.
Counterbalanced against real needs for security, e.g. those replacement iPhone
and Android screens that have spyware written into their firmware.

P.S. And are the last two concerns really in opposition to each other, or the
same? If it's open and we can confirm what it is, then we can assess its
security.

~~~
Baeocystin
>I'd like to spray a fuel-tolerant liner into it. If I can find the product
and someone -- or the tools -- to do it.

For a liner to work, you'd need to drop the tank anyway, as you need to
thoroughly clean and strip the inside, then roll the tank around to evenly
distribute the liquid liner. At that point, for cars, anyway, you're better
off just replacing it. FWIW.

For smaller projects, like motorcycles, I have used Red Kote for years, with
excellent success. It's the only single-part lining I've tried that holds up.

[http://damonq.com/red-kote.html](http://damonq.com/red-kote.html)

[edit] This is me cleaning out a rusty motorcycle tank with some chain,
solvent, and an old Jeep:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNEwIxWUJjU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNEwIxWUJjU)

The lining I installed afterwards is still holding up, 5 years later.

~~~
pasbesoin
Thank you!

That Red Kote recommendation looks great for anyone with a smaller and/or more
accessible (and/or new?) tank. Hopefully, some other HN readers will get use
from it.

Note that they have both an internal liner coating and an external one with
plastic fibre reinforcement.

I wonder whether, if one is installing a new tank, one or both linings are
advisable -- stop future problems before they occur. Or whether the lifespans
of the liners indicate not applying until they are needed.

It won't solve my particular situation, I guess -- that's more a matter of how
much I might end up having to replace, in addition to the tank, due to
corrosion of the undercarriage. The cost of the tank, I was ready for. But in
talking to my mechanic (good guy I've known a long time), he's come to the
realization that once he goes after the tank, it's hard to predict how many
additional parts would have to be replaced because they'd prove impossible to
reinstall in their current condition. The job can be done, but it might exceed
what's worth putting into the car versus towards a replacement vehicle.

I was hoping to get another year or two out of it, at least, but I had no
expectation of making it last forever. (I.e. this is not a restoration or
similar.)

My problem seems to be just the seam. If I felt I could get a good enough
application just right at the seam, I'd pursue that. But that looks to be an
ill-advised approach.

That's a nice trick, in the YouTube video. I guess it proves, too, there's a
way to work duck tape into any repair! ;-)

~~~
Baeocystin
Happy to help!

There is no advantage to internally lining a new tank- you would eventually
have to strip and reapply even the best liquid liner long before actual
internal wear would have been an issue.

With so many gas blends using alcohol nowadays, internal rust (in vehicles
that are regularly driven) isn't nearly the issue it used to be. Back when gas
was just gas, water would collect and pool along the bottom of the tank,
leading to rustouts. Nowadays, the alcohols in the fuels will suck up any
stray moisture every time you refill.

That being said, alcohol/gas blend fuels don't store well, and alcohols will
separate out over time, so you can't rely on this effect when thinking about
vehicle storage. But for daily drivers, internal rust just isn't an issue any
more.

The best thing you could do to promote longevity of a car gas tank is to give
the exterior a thicker treatment (like the OverKote you mentioned) before
installation.

Speaking of your particular use case, if you really just want to hack it for
one or two more seasons, wire brush the worst of the rust off around the seam,
then apply some permatex spray sealer.

[https://www.permatex.com/products/adhesives-
sealants/permate...](https://www.permatex.com/products/adhesives-
sealants/permatex-spray-sealant-leak-repair/)

You will need several coats. It works much better if you do multiple thin ones
that you let mostly dry between than if you glob on one or two thick ones.
YMMV and all that, but if the seams are only weeping, and not so bad as to
actively drip, this would probably do the trick for another year or so. Don't
bother with RTV, even ones labeled as fuel/solvent resistant. Silicones in
general just don't get along with gas very well, and the sealing properties
would fail pretty quickly.

I'm glad you enjoyed that video. I was more proud of it that I really should
be, and making actual use of duct tape was a part of it. :D

~~~
pasbesoin
Thanks again!

I'll have the mechanic hoist it again and have a good look. For liability if
nothing else, I'll probably have to find a lift I can borrow and do the job
myself, but first I'll make sure the entire exterior of the seam is accessible
while the tank is in place.

I never saw a drop (re drips) until just a month or two ago -- when I parked
for a day over some fresh snow. So, it may be too late, now, but it's worth a
shot. I also can put 8 gallons into an empty tank without the problem
manifesting. If I can somewhat seal and protect the seam from the exterior,
per your suggestion, I can also stick to partially filling the tank, most of
the time.

The car only has about 135K on it, and the interior is pretty much spotless
while the exterior has had only a couple of nascent rust spots that I've
actively kept under control. Until this winter; I had to switch detailers and
the new one seemed to create paint chips rather than mitigating them. I used
to do most of this work myself, but health has had me seeking help.

Anyway, it really seems worth getting the extra year or two out of it, if I
can.

As for the alcohol blend fuels, I was aware that they help significantly in
keeping the tank "dry". It's been my understanding that they may also
contribute to the lower instances of "vapor lock" that we see, these days. At
least, at my mild altitude and (mostly) non-extreme environment.

Applying an exterior coat does sound like an interesting idea. One concern I
would have, is whether if and as it deteriorated, it might trap moisture and
corrosives next to the tank, turning from protectant to trap and accelerant.

I used to rinse my undercarriage extensively each spring, after the last of
the salt was washed off the roads by rain. The last some years -- again,
health -- I've gotten... well, I guess I could be self-deprecating and call it
lazy. That may have made things worse, but 18 years of Chicagoland winters
doubtless bear the bulk of the responsibility, regardless of such mitigation
efforts. And I didn't have this car for the first 10 or so years of its life;
the damage was already well underway.

~~~
Baeocystin
>Applying an exterior coat does sound like an interesting idea. One concern I
would have, is whether if and as it deteriorated, it might trap moisture and
corrosives next to the tank, turning from protectant to trap and accelerant.

This is a real concern, and one of the big problems with conformal coatings.
The short of it is that when coating ferrous materials, you need to make sure
as much rust as possible is removed before coating. (As rust forms, it takes
up a greater volume that the iron is forms from. This results in pressure that
will lift coatings, and allow water to seep underneath, accelerating wear.)

Just to repeat, in your case, wire brush + the spray will probably net you
another year or two, which is about what you could hope for with a tank that
has already had seeping issues anyway. So I agree with your assessment of
borrowing some rack time and giving it a shot. It is an inexpensive way to eek
out a little more use of what you've got.

>As for the alcohol blend fuels, I was aware that they help significantly in
keeping the tank "dry". It's been my understanding that they may also
contribute to the lower instances of "vapor lock" that we see, these days. At
least, at my mild altitude and (mostly) non-extreme environment.

Vapor lock used to be an issue when fuel pumps were located in the engine bay,
powered off a rotating cam that ran a diaphragm pump from the gas tank to the
carburetor. The pump would be pulling from the tank to the front of the car,
then pushing from the pump a few feet up to the carb. Sometimes, in hot
environments, the suction of the pump + heat of the engine bay would result in
the fuel boiling inside the feed line before it reached the fuel pump itself,
rendering it unable to pump any fuel at all until the system had cooled enough
for the fuel to condense back to a liquid. Thus the term 'vapor lock'.

Nowadays, everything uses fuel injection and high pressure lines, with the
pump located in the gas tank itself. There isn't any low-pressure part of the
system that would allow vapor lock to happen any more, so it ceased to be an
issue. :)

------
natch
We have some repair cafe events about every one or two months in Silicon
Valley.

Here’s one such organization that holds them on a quarterly basis, for anyone
interested:

[http://www.repaircafe-paloalto.org](http://www.repaircafe-paloalto.org)

------
alant
Buy less stuff but nicer stuff. And fixing them instead of throwing them away
if they’re broken. If you can’t fix it you never owned it.

~~~
lostlogin
Exclusions apply. Garage door opening mechanisisms, pull chords for starting
petrol powered tools, window blind slats, really old plumbing that is cast
iron or lead. I’m sure there are more but I won’t be touching those things
again.

~~~
mrcsparker
Garage doors in general are a pain. I have installed and repaired a few and
that is one thing that I pay someone else to do now.

I don’t find it fun to tinker with a garage door at all.

------
kashyapc
Although straightforward, I'm still proud of how I replaced the "un-
replaceable" battery of my 4-year old Nexus 5 (still in mint condition). /me
even made an opening pry "tool" by cutting an eraser holder into two[+], which
worked perfectly well. (Still have to install Lineage OS, though, as Google
stopped security updates.)

[+] [https://kashyapc.fedorapeople.org/Eraser-holder-turned-
openi...](https://kashyapc.fedorapeople.org/Eraser-holder-turned-opening-
pry.jpg)

------
otterpro
I'd love to see more products that reduce e-waste by:

1\. being upgradable without needing to replace. I hate it whenever new
generation of Intel CPUs are introduced, because it usually means I have to
upgrade the motherboard when I upgrade the CPU. I'm willing to sacrifice a
little bit of performance for upgradability and for being future-proof (for at
least 5 years).

2\. using standardized parts instead of proprietary parts - for example, ATX
power supplies are pretty much standard, so one can easily exchange one for
another (as long as one meets the power requirements)

3\. Reducing the usage of plastics. I've even made a PC case out of cardboard
box many years ago when I didn't have a lot of money. I remember seeing few
cardboard-based PC cases that were sold commercially but they were more of a
novelty.

4\. making computers that are easily repairable - laptops like IBM Thinkpad
make it easy to replace parts like RAM, HDD, as well as internal parts like
screen, keyboard, etc...

5\. Choosing quality over quantity (i.e. lower price or cheaply made
products).

6\. Mandating a longer hardware manufacturer's warranty. Typically it's
usually 1 year but I'd love to see 3 to 5 year warranty. I wouldn't mind it,
even if it were to increase the price of PC components a little higher. But
the long term benefit is that manufacturer will also try to create higher
quality products.

7\. Using and creating software that works well with older hardware. This is
one of my biggest frustration, especially on the phone. Software is often slow
and bloated. On Windows, Windows 2000 was the best OS, at least in
consideration of performance. I also miss Snow Leopard on Mac.

------
NikolaeVarius
On this topic, today (3/17) is a world create day via hackaday
[https://hackaday.com/2018/03/15/get-together-and-hack-
this-s...](https://hackaday.com/2018/03/15/get-together-and-hack-this-
saturday-at-world-create-day/)

Not exactly, the same thing, but definitely brings together like minded people

------
alehul
While I imagine most people won't care enough to repair their objects, maybe
there could be room for a business that would offer money for objects one
would otherwise throw away, and then re-sell them to those who don't mind
second-hand items? Maybe it's just me, but I think more people would be more
incentivized with cold, hard cash.

~~~
masklinn
Thrift stores, junk stores, surpluses, record shops, used book stores, many
video game stores and (to an extent) pawn shops work on that model.

~~~
userbinator
Not to mention eBay and the various other online markets.

~~~
alehul
While this is true, I think eBay is very labor-intensive both on the side of
listing goods and having to continuously bid on them, and I'm unsure of the
size of people who buy electronics in need of repair and then resell; it would
involve at least two shipping periods for a relatively small gain, not to
mention the time investment and being unsure if the item is repairable, having
not seen it in person.

------
jotm
The amount of things people/companies just throw away in the UK (and I reckon
the rest of the world) is insane. Working for a e-waste company, I've seen
everything from (perfectly working) curved 3D TVs, to hundreds of normal LED
TVs, hundreds of ex-corporate laptops (mint condition, can't resell, must
scrap) and of course, thousands of smartphones, tablets and home appliances,
most of which were still in perfect working condition. That's all in _a month
's time across the poorer half_ of the UK! I will never understand this insane
consumerism.

------
tapanjk
There is merit in having the mindset to be able to repair things. It
encourages one to at least attempt at fixing something that is broken before
throwing it away. Also, if done by enough people, manufacturers will see the
benefit of making their products repairable.

Sometime in the future, we will look back at how it was impossible to repair
things, and wonder what made manufacturers think that throwing away was the
right choice.

------
astura
Bad charging ports drive me bananas!! Ports should be designed to outlast all
other components! It seems like the most fragile part of half of electronics.

I have had micro USB ports crap out on me on several different products. The
low tech solution - high purity rubbing alcohol to clean and and tweezers to
remove debris and move the prongs back in place did the trick all but once.

------
scotch_drinker
I'm reminded of Matthew Crawford's Shop Class as Soulcraft. We have lost the
ability, and sometimes the right when it comes to John Deere or Mercedes, to
tinker on our own things. This is exciting news and maybe the next generation
won't be so willing to just throw away a piece of crap and buy a new piece of
crap.

------
taeric
Laptops and batteries are the mind blowing settings nowdays. A laptop is
virtually unusable in about 5 years because the battery is effectively
worthless. Buying a new one is expensive, ish. But way cheaper than a new
laptop. And typically gets my laptop back to full operations quickly enough.

~~~
hnaccy
Swapping in a new battery and replacing the CD drive with an SSD gave my
laptop a new lease on life.

~~~
taeric
I don't know how to explain this to everyone. It is funny, because it is
similar to cars. Folks take the first major expense necessary to maintain
something, compare it to a payment for a new thing, and somehow think that
justifies a new purchase.

------
partycoder
Cubans were forced to become acquainted with DIY repair due to embargos. This
video shows some interesting perspectives on that:
[https://youtu.be/v-XS4aueDUg?t=3m49s](https://youtu.be/v-XS4aueDUg?t=3m49s)

I think DIY repair is always a good skill to have.

------
dhruvparamhans
Repair cafés seem like a wonderful idea. However, does anyone of places where
one could learn some basic stuff to repair electronics etc? I dont want to
hurt myself or blow the fuse in my apartment

------
wetpaws
My anecdotal story is a smartphone that I poured beer over and volume/onoff
buttons stopped working. Replacement buttons costed me $7 on eBay including
shipping.

------
tzakrajs
I'd love the right or even ability to to repair my Western Digital hard drives
when they fail just days outside of warranty.

------
Whack-kneed
Imagine a marketplace where manufacturers had a duty to fairly disclose their
longevity specs to the end user.

~~~
lagadu
Don't all products have the MTBF published as part of it's spec sheet (not to
be confused with the marketing specs)?

edit: never mind, I couldn't find the MTBF for my watch after some search.

------
coldelectrons
Would you please not glorify war in this way? This isn't war, it is work -
pushing against cultural norms and entropy.

------
arl_blk
that is awesome, now can you fix my laptop & old storage stuff .... i have so
many files that need to be recovered on them...

~~~
feikname
Rmoving your notebook HDD and retrieving the files with a SATA-USB adapter
connect to a 2nd device should be fairly straightforward for most models. Not
a fix though.

~~~
arl_blk
i have a laptop, toshiba working... but my other laptop is broke & wouldnt
turn on. I also have old storage devices that have files on it & it will not
give me anything. most of the op sys were orginal windows to xp. this laptop
has win10

~~~
tomcooks
look up the model on youtube, there is a huge chance you will have a video
tutorial on how to repair it.

~~~
arl_blk
where do you live??? haha, can you come over & fix it??? lol (kidding)

~~~
arl_blk
Hello, again ;) I figure out what you were telling me to do on the data
recovery on laptop or desk top drives. I am now needing some advise on how to
unformat old storage (seagate) devices? I also have a iomega small storage
device that locks up when i try to extract files i put on it, the power & usb
cord for it doesnt seem to work.

~~~
arl_blk
ok, ill utube...

~~~
arl_blk
i looked on youtube, there are lots of ways & applications to use to un-format
external storage devices... please can i get a free app that will help me out,
as i don't know which one to use. thanks much

~~~
arl_blk
I downloaded EaseUS Data Recovery Wizard app but they wanted me to pay, it
wasnt free. do you know of an app that is totally free? the 185gig were found
then I could get them to recover

