
Affordable Housing Draws Middle Class to Inland Cities - jgunaratne
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/04/business/affordable-housing-drives-middle-class-to-cities-inland.html
======
thetrumanshow
Man, I feel like I'm going to be really negative, I hope not, but here goes:
OKC is undergoing an oil boom, the secondary effects of which are being
reported in this article (IMO). My advice: come live in Oklahoma or Kansas if
you actually like it here and want to be here for a long time, because when
the boom dies, you'll find it harder to leave. Opportunities abound on the
coasts. Texas, well, Texas is always a great place to live and work... they
are almost always the exception.

~~~
chiph
Even in Texas, you have to be careful when the boom ends. I was in
Midland/Odessa about 10-12 years ago (before the current oil boom) and it was
a tough place to live - lots of closed businesses. The drilling firms had
stacks of pipe in their yards, instead of out in the oil fields being put to
use.

The folks who lived there were really down on their city, something you don't
see all that often in Texas (how do you know someone's a Texan? Don't worry,
they'll tell you). That was hard to deal with in conversation with them - they
still had lots of advantages, but they wouldn't see them.

~~~
mcdougle
> how do you know someone's a Texan? Don't worry, they'll tell you

I never noticed this before, but I'm a Texan, and I do this.

~~~
nutjob123
Same joke also works for new yorkers

~~~
jrs235
As well as lawyers, crossfitters, and vegetarians.

~~~
monknomo
I've always heard it with pilots

~~~
Graham24
Yorkshire

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vlucas
This is awesome news for me. I currently live in the Oklahoma City area, and
have for the past 11 years after moving here from the Bay Area, and am heavily
invested in the local tech community (I founded
[http://okcjs.com](http://okcjs.com) and organize
[http://thunderplainsconf.com](http://thunderplainsconf.com) among other
things). The tech community here is better than it has EVER been and awesome
things are happening here, but of course it's all relative - it's still a
small community if you're coming from the coasts.

While I can say with absolute certainty that the weather is not nearly as nice
(nor the scenery as beautiful) here in OKC as it was in the Bay Area, the
people here are awesome, and the opportunities abound. It's hard to put into
words the forward momentum that exists here, but everyone here in the local
community feels it.

Regarding salary, you may make slightly less here - depending on the job you
take - but your living costs are going to be so low, you will end up having a
much better, less stressful life. To give you an idea, I work remotely
(telecommute) on a very well paying full-time contract, and my mortgage on a
3bd/1.5ba. 1100 sq.ft. house is $640/mth with insurance and taxes included -
far below even 10% of what I make. I could easily buy a much larger brand new
house, but choose not to for now in order to maximize my savings. I have more
freedom in this situation than I would making even 50% more on the coasts.

Also, while I am sure there are other low-cost places to live in the U.S., I
don't feel like there are many other places positioned like OKC is right now.
The people of Oklahoma City have made significant public investments in the
area that have attracted significantly MORE private investment. The [MAPS
Projects]([http://www.okc.gov/maps/](http://www.okc.gov/maps/)) - and the
[MAPS3 Project]([http://www.okc.gov/maps3/](http://www.okc.gov/maps3/)) that
is currently underway have completely transformed downtown OKC and are having
ripple effects all throughout the greater metro area. These public projects
have paid off for OKC in spades, and will continue to pay dividends for
decades to come.

In the relatively short time I have lived in the OKC area, I have seen a
complete turn-around and transformation of an entire metro area unlike any
other I have ever seen or heard of in my life. It makes me excited for the
future, and glad that I am playing a part in it, however small.

~~~
yardie
I'm actually impressed. Most of the news I hear out of the midwest is how the
libertarian movement has stripped most municipalities of money to make any
improvements.

~~~
jdminhbg
Might be time to start looking into more diverse news sources.

~~~
yardie
I watched Fox News for an hour. Does that count? I probably won't do it again
because after an hour I felt like hulk smashing the television.

So who do you recommend?

~~~
tomohawk
Just about anything other than TV news.

TV news is designed to inflame, not inform. In the limited time they have,
they can't help but be biased in some way.

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jusben1369
It's interesting that there's no mention of the role of the Internet and
telecommuting in this trend. The housing market's changes are certainly
dramatic. But it's also worth noting that there's been a substantial cultural
and technology change each year making working remotely more achievable for a
growing % of people. And many of those are higher paying jobs. And remote work
isn't just johnny developer in his home office. Constant improvements in
technology make it more and more viable to start your financial services
company in a smaller location vs the North East. Of your health care focused
company. Or of course your high tech startup. All this needs to do is account
for an incremental 1% of the working jobs in your city each year and you can
see what happens after 5 or 10 years. That's the tipping point of disposable
income for your kayaking instructor to make a business out of.

------
sixbit
I just did the SF --> DFW move this week. Housing is 10x cheaper so that
tipped the pluses ahead of the minuses for me, and it's still a big city so
you can find decent things to do outside of work. Have my own b2b company that
I'm bootstrapping, so I realized I wasn't tied to SF anymore for any
particular reason. Will be interesting to see how the next year goes!

~~~
bryanbuckley
Nice! I did the opposite about 2 years ago. Really wish I had bought some real
estate in certain parts of Dallas but I was just starting out and didn't have
the capital/guts. There are parts of Dallas that I love (lower greenville,
deep ellum, oak cliff) that have really boomed these last two years.

The move to SF has been worth it, though, for my career/finances. Net was a
little bit lower than what I could have been making in Dallas, but my bonus
actually, fully paid out and I've gotten actually significant raises. Also,
since housing costs were so high I decided to experiment with alternative
living styles and I'm now actually spending less money in SF than I was in
Dallas.

~~~
dublinben
>alternative living styles

Do you want to expand on this? Are you just living in a van now?

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eastbayjake
After living in the Bay Area for a year, I find myself frequently opening my
laptop for "real estate porn": going to Realtor.com and looking at listings in
the cities mentioned in this article, just sitting there and oogling the home
prices outside of California. For the price of a crappy 1BR condo in SF you
can buy a 6BR Tudor mansion in Detroit:
[http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-
detail/1002-Semino...](http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-
detail/1002-Seminole-St_Detroit_MI_48214_M39379-58802?ex=MI567065809)

~~~
leonroy
I do the same but looking at homes in the Bay Area. Cannot believe that
mansion in Detroit. That would be $6m or more in SF.

It's interesting seeing old films or pictures from San Francisco. The city has
clearly had its ups and downs. If the 1906 earthquake had not happened I
wonder how different it would be compared to today.

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micro_cam
Any one have an interactive heatmap of the same data on a county or census
block level? That visualization makes it hard to explore finer grained trends.

Googeling around for one I found this article which picks out the inland west
as the fastest growing region in the nation:
[http://www.forbes.com/sites/joelkotkin/2013/09/04/a-map-
of-a...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/joelkotkin/2013/09/04/a-map-of-americas-
future-where-growth-will-be-over-the-next-decade/)

But one of the job hubs they mention, Boise, didn't make the NY times vis.

My own experience is that, when considering cost of living and quality of
life, it is hard to beat the northern rockies.

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jarjoura
San Francisco became my home in my heart almost immediately. I have fallen in
love with this city. When I leave, I miss it and where-ever I go I can't stop
talking about it. Yes it's not perfect, far from it, but it's perfect for me.

Anyway, my point is, where-ever you move to, make sure you find that place
that is home. That place you can truly say you love too. Don't just live
somewhere to save some bucks for the sake of saving some bucks. Life is too
short and you can't take your cash with you anyway.

------
xvedejas
I moved from the suburbs of OKC to California three years ago. I personally am
extremely happy with this change, but I won't go into details here.

What I do wonder: OKC has lots of issues with sprawl. How will this influx
change things? Is it possible that the city will become more compact and
urban, or will it continue the current trend of expanding the city so that
every house is on at least a half-acre of land? I have no point of reference
for which is more likely.

~~~
clarkmoody
If OKC follows the pattern of Houston, then some high-density housing will go
in closer to downtown and other job centers, but for the most part, the sprawl
will continue.

Developers in NW Houston are putting 3500 sq ft homes on 0.25 acre lots, and
the sprawl shows no signs of stopping. (low interest rates, cheap land,
willing commuters)

~~~
perrylaj
Sprawl seems to be the norm everywhere outside of the east coast. Portland OR,
Sacramento, Dallas....

The peninsula can't sprawl much, but the east bay is puking the same hideous
boxy track houses on tiny lots all over the hillsides of Fremont, Hayward,
Dublin and far beyond.

~~~
thrownaway2424
The puking has, for the most part, already occurred. Bay Area cities are now
constrained by urban growth boundaries and required to provide jobs and
housing in proportion, not just one or the other.

Unfortunately if you take the entire Bay Area as a whole, proper urban
structure with walkable mixed use takes up perhaps 1% or less of the developed
area. Everything else is sprawl. Even in the city of SF itself less than 1/3rd
of the built area (not counting parks and lakes and whatnot) is decent
walk/bike territory with amenities nearby. And you only have to go as far as
Concord or Antioch to find the real deal: all-out suburban sprawl with
neighborhood streets wider than I-5 and nary a pedestrian in sight.

Now when you compare to Oklahoma City, the Antioch brand of sprawl looks like
it might be Hong Kong compared to some of the developments that are within the
OKC's limits. For example here is a typical scene where someone took a quarter
section of some field or farm and said fuck it, let's put a subdivision here.

[https://www.google.com/maps/place/Oklahoma+City,+OK/@35.6276...](https://www.google.com/maps/place/Oklahoma+City,+OK/@35.6276847,-97.7234619,1486m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x87ad8a547ef8d281:0x33a21274d14f3a9d)

Now that's just a shame. This article isn't talking about the far-flung farms
that happen to be inside OKC's city limits, though. They're talking about
areas like Heritage Hills where the original housing stock wasn't bulldozed to
build freeways (yet). I remember before I bought my house in Oakland I looked
at what I could get for the same price in that neighborhood. As I recall there
was a huge-ass mansion with a separate building constituting servants'
quarters.

------
bryanwb
doesn't this article fly in the face of an hn-posted article last week that
asserted the suburbs are a Ponzi scheme? One could reason that that these
inland cities are growing because they are still in the early stages of the
Ponzi scheme.

I live in Europe and I feel pretty confident that American cities will become
more like Paris, Rome, London and not less. That means the poor live on the
periphery and the middle and upper class live close to the center.

------
autism_hurts
A little reminder that we sometimes forget in the San Francisco Bay Area --
there are plenty of other, really wonderful places to live.

People here will rattle off weather, jobs, activities (outdoors) -- but the
reality of the situation is that there are plenty of incredible places to live
in the US, where you can make within 10%-20% of your Bay Area wage with
30%-40% or more less housing costs.

Even a place like LA or San Diego, Seattle, Portland, Austin, Chicago, etc --
you won't believe the homes, apartments, lofts, flats, condos you can get.
Absolutely stunning places, with great activities and schooling.

I don't see myself in the Bay Area in 15 years or so, unless there's a drastic
change in the cost of housing.

That goes without saying that I find people in the bay area generally rather
unfriendly/unapproachable vs. other major metros.

~~~
jgunaratne
Many of the best jobs in areas such as technology, design and finance are on
the coasts. No doubt that costs are lower in the middle of the country, but
pay is also substantially lower. I wonder why more top companies don't try to
take advantage of the cost savings of setting up in middle America vs.
outsourcing jobs abroad?

~~~
fludlight
Eventually you will run out of available, qualified local talent and you will
need to hire someone from a coastal tech hub. Only most Californians/New
Yorkers don't want to move to Salt Lake City, or Oklahoma, or Houston, or
anywhere else in the middle. The flag is the same but the culture is
drastically different.

~~~
nilkn
Regarding Houston, it's among the fastest growing cities in the US. People are
moving there in droves from the coasts. It's also not even remotely as cheap
as a lot of people think.

~~~
bsilvereagle
When you get south of Houston into the Clear Lake region Houston living gets
much cheaper - but you run the risk of everything being obliterated by a
hurricane.

You have to remember that lot of inner Houston is funded by oil money, so
people are willing and capable of spending quite a bit of money on
housing/meals.

