
$2.25 Lyft line rides in SF - dafzal
http://blog.lyft.com/matchmuni
======
philip1209
The actual lyft line code is more simple than you would expect. It's written
in Flask and uses lots of heuristics. Lack of real-time traffic data causes
most of their issues. We're hosting the engineering lead for Lyft Line at our
meetup in SF next month if you are interested in learning about it:
[http://www.meetup.com/OpenLate/events/217476372/](http://www.meetup.com/OpenLate/events/217476372/)

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enahs-sf
This price war between uber and lyft seems foolish and unsustainable, but as a
consumer, I'm down.

~~~
rtpg
You shouldn't, the end result is that drivers will end up with shitty salaries
(and no, most drivers aren't going to be retrained as computer programmers
when they realise Uber can't help them pay for their SF rent). Not to mention
that these people are contractors (illegal) so have more personal taxes to
pay.

In my eyes Uber and Lyft have lost all moral high ground. These companies are
just not following regulations to make more money. This money was going
towards drivers, but it's clear that that's no longer the case. If you have
any moral qualms about Walmart's treatment of employees, I don't see how you
cannot have issues with Uber.

~~~
philwelch
It's not clear to me that the contracting model for drivers is illegal.
Drivers choose their own hours, own their own cars, and don't have to be
exclusive to either Uber or Lyft--many drivers drive for both more or less
simultaneously. That's the most clear cut example of a valid, legal contractor
model I've seen.

~~~
colinbartlett
If working your own hours, with your own equipment, for one or two companies
is illegal then myself and a lot of Hacker News are working illegally.

~~~
rtpg
working almost 40 hours of week for only one company as a contractor _is_
illegal. In the eyes of the IRS you are an employee, not a contractor. But
this is illegal for the employer rather than the employee in this case.

~~~
throwaway90999
That's not true. Working 40 hours in a week is not a problem. A contractor can
put in an unlimited number of hours if they wish. 20, 40, 80 - it doesn't
matter.

The differentiator you're probably thinking of is whether the worker chooses
which hours they work. If the worker decides independently how much they will
work and at what times then the IRS doesn't tend to consider the relationship
employment -- regardless of how much time is put in. This is precisely how
these driving services operate.

If the employer is scheduling a fixed schedule, say 9-5 M-F, then the IRS
considers it an employment arrangement. Regardless of the number of hours
worked. But that is not at all how these services operate.

~~~
philwelch
One of the defining features of Uber is that the drivers set their own hours,
too. That's how surge pricing is supposed to work--it's supposed to
incentivize part-time drivers to get off their butts and drive during peak
times.

Sometimes it backfires; Uber sent warning emails about surge pricing New Years
Eve to drivers _and_ to riders, and the cumulative effect of the warnings
resulted in a glut of drivers and relatively little surge pricing in Seattle,
at least according to a driver I talked to. In this case, leaving it as a
contract arrangement even works for Uber because it lets them leverage market
forces where a traditional employment model would make it impossible.

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sbisker
For those not in the SF area, this is almost certainly in response to this
(unless Uber has a mole within Lyft...):
[http://blog.uber.com/SFpoolparty](http://blog.uber.com/SFpoolparty)

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diego
I just tried Lyft line in SF. The first request got canceled after five
minutes. The second one found matches after a few minutes and told me to be
outside 6 minutes later. At some point someone else joined the ride, so the 6
minutes turned into 12. About 15 minutes went by, and (when the estimated wait
time had decreased only by 4 minutes) the driver decided to cancel the ride.
My guess is that it was because rush hour pricing jumped from 50% to 75%, so
"James" decided getting a single, full-price ride made more sense.

Needless to say, not a happy customer at this point.

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eltondegeneres
For its shortcomings, at least Muni has a level of accountability to the
public that Lyft and Uber inherently lack. I can't see Lyft or Uber providing
discounts to seniors or people with disabilities.

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pbreit
True in a political sense I suppose. But Lyft and Uber are far more
accountable to actual users. And I'm nor sure I would equate accountability
with offering arbitrary discounts to select groups.

~~~
kbenson
I wouldn't call them arbitrary. As a society we've chosen to make the _idea_
of helping the less able lead more normal lives something we want. Whether it
really helps or is the most effective way is debatable, but I think it's
pretty clear _why_ ; it's generally well supported and fits with our cultural
mythos.

~~~
soup10
Also young people don't vote ;)

~~~
kbenson
Yes, I also thought of that as well. :) I didn't feel like exploring how that
interrelates to other classes like the disabled in complex ways though[1], so
omitted it.

Edit: s/included that as well/thought of that as well/

1: Do the disabled benefit from this association and the voting power of the
elderly, and if so how much of our cultural wish to help the disabled is
rationalization after the fact?

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dcpdx
The company I work for recently won a contest put on by Lyft offering free
Lyft Line rides to and from work for an entire week. I live in Lower Pac
Heights and work in the Financial District and take a couple different Muni
routes to and from work. I'll take either the 2 or the 3 heading in and the
38L heading back; the 38L is way too crowded in the morning by the time it
gets to my closest stop. Morning commute usually takes around 15 minutes and
afternoon takes around 10.

So, my commute isn't bad by any means but I decided to give Lyft Line a shot
to see if I could do any better. The first day I tried hailing one in the
morning, the app hung up looking for drivers; it said 1 minute to match with a
driver but I waited 3 before quitting the app and deciding to take Muni. That
afternoon, I tried again but ran into the same issue. The next afternoon, I
was finally able to line up a ride but had to wait 10 minutes for the driver
to get to me. Once he did and we were on our way, I had the joyful experience
of sitting in traffic for blocks on end while watching Munis zip by in the
designated lanes beside us. Not including wait time, the ride took around 20
minutes (double my normal commute time).

I'm sure there are some routes for which Line is a better option than public
transportation, but I personally have a much better experience on Muni than I
did with Line. I get why they're focused on rush hour; a service like Line
requires a critical mass of people to use the app concurrently in order to
make it work. But, the downside of this is that the times when it reaches this
point are the times when traffic is the worst and public transportation offers
a superior alternative in many cases. We'll see if this ends up taking off,
but I know I won't be using it for my commute. Maybe this would be better
suited for one-off events like Outside Lands, Giants games etc. but I'd
imagine they'd run into the same problems.

~~~
diego
Sounds similar to my thoughts. I've been trying to get a ride for the past two
hours (I'm in the office, no rush to go home). I got canceled three times.

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Cherian
I’ve been a regular Lyft Line user. Except for some cars that show up in
pretty bad shape and smell, it’s a good experience. And I’ve had to wait much
longer on an average.

It’s heartening to see a company just focused on the “user” and not just world
domination.

~~~
closetnerd
I'm assuming you mean Uber is after "world domination"? But don't fool
yourself, Lyft is the same, Uber is just better at it so Lyft has no choice
but to fight back with $2.50 to Uber's $5 bucks flat.

This isn't because the company is "focused on the user", it's because the
company is focused on the competition. If that goes away (unlikely for Lyft to
see Uber go away) don't expect high standards.

~~~
chc
Do you believe this because you know some inside information, or is this just
a generic "All any company cares about is your money"-type platitude?

~~~
rkho
Companies exist to make money. Some don't say it outright and focus on the
user experience, which brings more money (i.e. Apple). Others focus directly
on the bottom line (Uber). There's nothing wrong with either mindset, but I
believe it's naive to say that companies don't care about money. Without
money, you can't pour it into R&D, expansion, or improvements.

~~~
danielharan
Companies need to make money to keep existing, the same way we need to
breathe.

If you've ever had a tyrannical boss, you'll see sometimes the company is just
their fiefdom. Feeding their ego is their prime motivation and organizing
principle for the company - not generating money.

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crystaln
This would seem to undermine companies like Chariot, who are offering more
MUNI-plus like services:

[http://chariotsf.com](http://chariotsf.com)

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geuis
I use Lyft all the time, multiple times a week. This is ridiculous. How in the
hell are their drivers supposed to make money?

~~~
prawn
It's likely that Lyft are loss-leading to keep marketshare and still paying
their drivers the regular amount.

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ComteDeLaFere
The "Drive Happy District"? That sounds like something right out of Super Sad
True Love Story.

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abhididdigi
Wonderful. As a heavy Lyft user, I'm looking forward towards the same in NYC -
NJ area.

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TheSwordsman
Pretty neat idea. However, more glad that Lyft finally has the ability to
split fare.

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hristov
ok what is a lyft line? is that some other type of lyft?

~~~
matznerd
A potentially shared ride. It spends a minute searching to see if someone is
heading in the same direction as you and then you share the ride. As a
passenger, you also only have 1 minute to get downstairs when the car arrives
or you have to pay a $5 fee (which really annoys me sometimes as their
estimates of time to arrival are sometimes grossly incorrect.

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zobzu
thats quite cheap if you go from one side of the square to the other.. which
happens to be my case ;)

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kevinkimball
the 1-up-manship continues

~~~
walru
At what point do drivers tap out? This match keeps cutting their hopes dimmer
and dimmer.

~~~
kiyoto
So, I've been talking to a lot of Uber/Lyft drivers, and while I have no
carefully tabulated data to quantify my point, I must say Lyft drivers
complain less than Uber drivers (at least not explicitly) about their
respective employers.

This attitudinal difference is most acute when the driver drives for both:
they generally like Lyft better for how the company treats them but are also
on Uber to ensure steadier business.

~~~
jsprogrammer
I thought dogma was that drivers are not employees, but Independent
Contractors? Meaning Uber/Lyft are not employers (of drivers), but more akin
to a fancy home improvement parking lot?

~~~
icebraining
They're still employers, even if the drivers are independent contractors. The
name doesn't change.

~~~
jsprogrammer
They do employee people (office staff), but they are not employers of the
drivers. It would be more accurate to call them the contractee.

At least, this is the argument that Uber/Lyft will/does make to shield them
from general liability for their contractors' actions as well as tax
liability[1].

[1] [http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-
Employ...](http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-
Employed/Independent-Contractor-Self-Employed-or-Employee)

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natmaster
Who would have thought private industry was better than government at things.

~~~
hristov
This is a limited time promotion. The Muni price is a long term price. After a
while, lyft and uber will bring their prices back up. It will be a shame if
any muni services are lost in the meantime because people stupidly believe
that these are long term prices.

~~~
dilap
Lyft's normal line price is frequently (slightly) cheaper for my wife and I
than Muni. Of course, during heavy demand times or for longer rides, muni
wins, and I certainly would not want it to go away!

I think long term something like robot driven 6-rider lyft-line style vans is
probably the future of public transit (hopefully) :)

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badusername
[http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-
content/uploads/2012/09/throw...](http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-
content/uploads/2012/09/throwing-money-away.gif)

Edit: thanks for downvoting a valid point. It's weird that HN doesn't see it
for what it is.

~~~
Igglyboo
HN downvotes low effort posts like reaction gifs, it has nothing to do with
your point.

