
Ask HN: Do you prefer to work for socially conscientious employers? - datashovel
I&#x27;ve had an idea for a while that (for those at the top of their field, and have their pick of the litter so to speak as to who their employer will be) generally speaking salary only does so much for you when looking at the package a potential employer offers.  Would it be a safe assumption that, generally speaking, those at the top of their field not only want to get paid what they&#x27;re worth (or more), but want the whole package, whether that is a guarantee to work on projects that interest them, or carte blanche in terms of your ability to choose how you spend your time.<p>Would such folks ever consider taking lower pay to work for what you&#x27;d consider to be a &quot;socially conscientious&quot; employer?<p>The reason for this question is I&#x27;ve wanted to begin compiling data that would make it easier for those at the top of their field to make the more &quot;socially conscientious&quot; decision about who writes their paycheck.  And even in the rare case persuade those at the top of their field to pursue employment with the more &quot;socially conscientious&quot; company.  The analysis (as to who is more worth) of course comes in many forms and would be interpreted in many different ways, so I envision more of a repository where a person would go to get the raw data in an organized &#x2F; accessible fashion, instead of that data being hidden behind a &quot;5-star rating&quot; for example.<p>The hypothesis I&#x27;m considering here is that empowering people to make the right decisions about who employs them has the potential to (over time) help to ensure that those companies who have the best track records as being socially conscientious could end up being market leaders and not just an after thought within the markets that they serve.
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glimcat
_Do you prefer to work for socially conscientious employers?_

Sure. But there's always the competing option of "work for a socially
ambivalent megacorp which pays more, then donate the delta to your cause of
choice." Or more commonly, "I have three kids and medical bills, and am not
free to arbitrarily take substantial pay cuts."

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gregcohn
I think this question would be better phrased as, "How much of a pay or
benefits cut would you be willing to take in order to work for a socially
conscious employer?"

Studies have been done along these lines measuring consumer willingness to pay
for eco-conscious products. Not surprisingly, it's a question of how much the
premium is. See
[http://www.mckinsey.com/insights/manufacturing/how_much_will...](http://www.mckinsey.com/insights/manufacturing/how_much_will_consumers_pay_to_go_green)

I imagine similar studies have been done on organic food.

Of course many of these studies go off what people say, and really we need to
measure in all of these cases what people actually do when confronted with the
actual choice.

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Mz
One data point you should look at and look at hard: Companies that pay better
have higher employee retention and this leads to both lowered costs for the
employer in terms of turnover and an accumulation of internal
knowledge/wisdom/experience that is difficult to measure the value of.

I am pretty tired of this idea that do-gooders should get paid less. I did a
lot of volunteer work. I had a health site for a time and people either pissed
on me and told me it was a worthless piece of shit or they told me it was
wonderful but I should give away what I know out of the goodness of my heart.
So both people who felt I did not know anything of value and people who felt I
did know something of value felt I should not get anything in return for the
value offered.

I think that's a broken model. I am well aware that we pay a premium to hit
men or for people to ruin their quality of life by working long overtime
hours, but if you do it right, creating value should come back to you. Yes,
you have to not bleed the market. "Strip-mining" type business models can
extract value until it runs out. There are situations -- mining certain
minerals -- where, no, no more is being made. But there are also situations
where taking too much at one time reduces the long term value (deforestation
comes to mind). So being good stewards of the earth's resources can actually
improve long term profitability and that should be a big part of socially
conscientious businesses.

The other thing is that a lot of things humans value are not directly
measurable in the way you seem to be framing things. I had a job where I
worked 37.5 hours/week. It was a full time job and it was an evening shift, so
they gave a bit of a bonus to make it pay about the same as the day shift. I
wanted the evening shift because of my health issues and the slightly less
long work week made a big difference for me in my ability to cope.

People who have kids or health issues or are going to school while working or
have some hobby that matters a lot to them -- their job needs to accommodate
the fact that they have a life, they don't just live to work. The work to
live. So how a job is packaged can ultimately matter more than whether or not
someone thinks a particular job is morally "good."

~~~
datashovel
I agree with you. At least I think I do, where you are talking about the fact
that higher pay equals better retention and thus lower long-term costs to
employer.

Although I imagine since this is a sort of proposal or question as to "how do
we change the status quo" where those companies with the best track record are
in fact the leaders in their respective markets. In that other world I imagine
pay would be better at these companies since they would be market leaders.

And I'm not even necessarily saying, though it may not be obvious in the
original question, that people should need to chose between "GreenPeace" and
"British Petroleum". I'm instead imagining, for example, that someone would be
chosing perhaps between "Facebook" and "green Facebook" whatever that other
company's name is.

We're still in a demand / supply economy so companies that do the same sort of
thing would need to start differentiating themselves not just in how large and
powerful they are, but also in how they impact the world in a larger way.

One idea here would be: Suppose a large pharmaceutical companies are trying to
patent technologies to protect their businesses, but then a new kind of
pharmaceutical company came into existence where they openly worked more for
the greater good, not trying to patent things but trying to solve important
health related problems and making those solutions open. Because people see
the inherent good in what they're doing all of a sudden they are the ones who
become the market leader in pharmaceutical companies because everyone wants to
be their customers instead of those companies who try to stifle innovation
through ridiculous patents and even more ridiculous marketing strategies.

~~~
Mz
Sigh.

I have a serious medical condition. I have spent 13 years getting myself well
when doctors said that could not be done. I get a shitshow off of other people
when I try to share information about what I did to get well.

I think real health companies include things like GNC and gyms and "green"
construction companies. I am aware we will always need medicine (both the
field of it and drugs) but the framing of what works is very different in my
mind from how you are framing it. It isn't a case of "socially conscious drug
testing" versus "blithely torturing animals to get product to market."

I am not trying to discourage you from creating a database to help people make
job hunting decisions. I am just saying that this isn't and apples to apples
comparison and isn't even necessarily an apples to oranges comparison. What
kind of data/metrics you include matters. I am just trying to encourage you to
think more broadly about the topic.

Best of luck.

~~~
datashovel
I agree. I think the problem is a very nuanced one, and probably very
difficult to get right. The critical thing, in my mind, is to find the
specific "types" of things that matter most to people. Another critical thing
will be to find the combination of things that are non-intrusive enough that a
company would feel comfortable sharing. There will, in the end, I think be a
sweet spot where certain companies will be willing to share or openly oblige
themselves to certain rules / restrictions while others won't. And that
refusal to discuss those issues, that their competitors are willing to
discuss, will of course be noted in that company's profile.

In the end it may not even be a huge gap between different companies in
different industries, but the public perception behind a company who openly
discusses their willingness to push certain initiatives vs the company who
refuses to take a stand or create transparent policy on certain issues will
APPEAR to be a huge difference.

Suddenly once you have companies thinking about these things and informing
public opinion about their decisions / policies, the needle starts to move and
all of a sudden you have a thing that matters and makes a difference.

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meric
You could put the need for social conscientiousness on a scale. Some people
might be reluctant to work as a contract killer, but is perfectly happy to
work in a cigarette company. Some people might not even consider a cigarette
company, no matter the salary. I think if we see social conscientiousness as a
continuum, everyone would consider lower pay for a more socially conscientious
employer, to some degree.

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dlwiest
In order of priority, it definitely ranks below salary, benefits, how
enjoyable the work is, and where the job is located. If my employer happens to
be socially conscientious, that's a nice bonus, but I can't see choosing a job
based on it.

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davidgerard
_" Would such folks ever consider taking lower pay to work for what you'd
consider to be a "socially conscientious" employer?"_

c.f. the attraction of working at Wikimedia for far less than you might get at
Google or Facebook.

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datashovel
another important question here too then is how do you currently gauge this
kind of thing, and what specific things matter, when choosing who to work for?

