
How I got hired at a Y Combinator start-up without the necessary credentials - dyll
https://www.hireart.com/blog/?p=20
======
sker
One thing to note is that he was hired by one of the co-founders. He would
have never made it through HR or a middle manager.

Over the 7 years I've been working as a software developer, I've had many
similar experiences. Not once have I been even close to get a project when
talking to HR or middle managers. Every project I've landed was because I
talked to the technical people in charge or to the owner of the company, even
without the necessary credentials.

Middle managers and HR will always apply the "no one got fired for buying IBM"
technique to people. CEOs and owners are far more likely to take a chance on
you.

~~~
brianmcconnell
I've been working in tech for 20 years. The key to getting decent gigs/clients
is to avoid tournament situations (i.e. a conventional job
application/interview process).

~~~
AznHisoka
I wonder if this can be applied to the dating world as well...

~~~
VLM
Dating coworkers / ex-coworkers? My wife and I worked together although by the
time we were seriously dating we both had moved in to other jobs.

Another option is the obvious getting set up blind date style.

The coworker thing seems to work very well if everyone involved can keep drama
out of the workplace, which is pretty easy if its actually ex- coworkers not
current coworkers. The "set up by friends" thing seems to work only slightly
better than "met at a bar".

------
mrb
Is anybody else stricken by the fact that the email seems to be too much like
a boilerplate support email, providing little useful information and offering
no real information about the next steps? Even in the context of this
hypothetical exercise, the email could be made better:

\- "we'll be contacting you soon" is vague. The client might wonder if it is
minutes, hours, days? When should he be expected to reach back to Support if
the problem is not resolved? "I'll be contacting you in the next X
minutes/hours" would tell the client exactly when he can expect the next step
to take place.

\- the support representative could have added "call me at (XXX) XXX-XXXX if
you wish to talk to me directly" to make it clear he wants to go above and
beyond his job duties to provide fantastic support.

\- the mail could be made more personal by using more "I", as in "I attempted
to check with the members of my team, etc" instead of "the members of my team
[...] aren't available".

~~~
notahacker
Being too specific on timing is a bad thing if you're a remote rep relying on
technical people you haven't spoken with to fix the problem

I thought a bigger weakness to the email was that it didn't _gather generic
useful information that might help the people actually equipped to fix the
problem_. It doesn't even ask the login name the customer is trying to use,
never mind other any error messages, browser version etc. Asking those
questions should speed up the tech team's work, and might even result in the
customer trying something else which fixes their problem. Even in the worst
case scenario - the information being useless and irrelevant - it at least
gives the customer the impression they're being listened to rather than
apologised at.

Since plenty of people that _wouldn 't_ be well-suited to helping customers
with problems (unreliable, disorganised, lacking initiative, technically
illiterate etc.) could also write a nice canned apology for an interview
exercise, I'm more intrigued by the process _after_ the initial screening was
complete that earned Dylan his permanent role

~~~
mrb
_" Being too specific on timing is a bad thing if you're a remote rep"_

It is not. I did not promise a time by which the pb will be fixed, but a time
by which a status update will be given (even if it is "I have made the
technical team aware of the pb, they are still looking into it and will give a
ETA for a fix").

------
jacalata
I'm not sure what the 'necessary credentials' for a remote customer service
assistant normally are - anyone know?

~~~
ctide
I'm pretty sure the necessary credentials are exactly what he showcased -- the
ability to write a legible, coherent email in a timely fashion.

~~~
hga
It was also superbly nuanced. Empathized with both the customer and the
problems this was causing him, and didn't imply the whole company was out to
lunch.

~~~
simonw
Yeah, seriously. That was a really tough imaginary situation and his answer
was perfect.

~~~
kelnos
I disagree. As a customer reading that email, I would feel pretty powerless.
Any response is certainly better than no response, but the answer reads to me
as, "I can't get in touch with anyone, so I don't know when your problem will
be looked at, let alone fixed, and I'll be in touch at some undisclosed time
in the future." At the very least he could have replied, "I'll get back to you
in an hour with an update". Even if that update ended up being, "I'm sorry, I
still haven't been able to get in touch with anyone, but I'm still trying and
will get back to you in another hour", at least that's something concrete, and
implies an action being taken and a set of follow-up steps.

As a tech person on the team who would have to help the customer, my first
question of the support person would be, "why didn't you gather more
information, like the customer's username, error messages he/she saw, browser
type and version, etc.?" Not only would that be useful information to help
track down the problem, but it would also give the customer some actions to
take that would a) potentially lead to a solution, b) make him/her _feel_ like
he was actively pushing his problem closer to resolution.

I'm not saying the poster was a bad hire; given that he's risen in the
organization and has spent a lot of time there, I assume he quickly learned
how HireArt's business works and what questions to ask to get solutions faster
for customers... I'm just a little baffled that this work sample got him a
job. Presumably it was the process that followed that the founders really
liked. Maybe this was just a good filter that easily disqualified resume-
spammers and people who can't form sentences.

I think the real value in this post is pointing out something that many
recruiters, HR departments, and hiring managers should seriously think about:
asking a candidate to solve an actual real-world problem is much more useful
than most interview processes.

~~~
hga
You raise a lot of good points, but given the constraints presented to the
applicant I think that's as good as anyone could do. E.g. the customer feeling
powerless is a true reflection of his being powerless as well; when it comes
to this sort of thing I go for as much honesty as is palatable.

The "get back to you in an hour" ... not sure about that. You don't want to
string someone along with a series of these, and in this artificial case he
has _no_ idea exactly how long it'll be before he can get back to the
customer. Worse, if enough customers are messed up he'd be sending a lot of
identical messages like that out, and for each reply he'd need to make a more
personal reply.

The points you make about his interacting with the tech team are well taken,
but we might assume the info gathering was already done (ideally there's a
ticket system and he could confirm that before sending this sort of reply),
and I'm not sure they're relevant for a first level screen like this. If the
company has its act together, their next step would be to test all that with
some of the people he'd be working together with in the future.

~~~
kelnos
I see where you're coming from, but I still disagree. The last thing a
customer wants is a reply that has no useful content outside of apology.

Even if he was powerless to help at that moment, the customer does not want to
hear that. The customer wants to believe that they are being helped and that
the person on the other end of the line is actively taking steps to get them
there.

------
onion2k
Well done. Imagining that you're probably not going to the best candidate (on
paper) but having the tenacity to apply anyway, plus being good at what the
job actually needs, and, dare I say, being very inexpensive as you're looking
for part-time hours and you can work from home is a powerful and heady mix
that adds up to the perfect candidate for a start-up hire.

The lesson here is not to be defeated by your own (perceived) failings. What
you think is a fault might not matter to a hiring manager. Don't fear
rejection. Step up and apply anyway. You never know.

(Plus, if you hire someone like this, your startup gets a really good human-
interest news story 18 months later. ;) )

------
burgeaccount
This seems like not just good for applicants with weaker resumes, but for all
applicants who are serious about a particular job. One problem with open job
hunts in the Internet era is it's too easy to apply - applicants can resume-
spam companies easily, applying at hundreds of places, and then the companies
end up wading through a thousand applications - of course they'll just get
discouraged and hire someone they already know. Making it a little bit more
difficult to apply for a Job - cant just forward a generic résumé and cover
letter - means companies might get only a limited pool if applicants, who
actually want THAT job - so if you're one of those applicants, and it's your
dream Job, you have a much better shot a really being seriously considered.

~~~
pekk
Yes, clearly it is the applicants who are fault here. What a nuisance they
are. They just shouldn't apply to jobs so much. Maybe instead of trying to
work they could try doing something else, like just dying.

I propose that candidates should purchase a big engagement ring for the
company to prove their commitment. This will filter out the losers who don't
really want the job. If the rock is big enough, they pass to the next phase,
which is to fake an earth-shattering enthusiasm about how awesome the company
and job are. If we are convinced that we are the best they ever had, then they
can be allowed to solve our problems for us.

------
spitfire
Maybe tokenadult will chime in here. But every time they have a how-to-hire
thread he drops in a link to a meta-study outlining the most accurate
predictors of hiring success[1]. The top two by far are general mental
ability, and work task sample.

This guy did a work task sample and nailed it. Then he got the job. Kudos for
him, and kudos to hireart for using statistically relevant hiring criteria.

[1] Schmit and Hunter 1998, Don't have a link handy.

~~~
clarkm
Here you go:

Frank L. Schmidt and John E. Hunter, "The Validity and Utility of Selection
Models in Personnel Psychology: Practical and Theoretical Implications of 85
Years of Research Findings," Psychological Bulletin, Vol. 124, No. 2, 262-274

[http://mavweb.mnsu.edu/howard/Schmidt%20and%20Hunter%201998%...](http://mavweb.mnsu.edu/howard/Schmidt%20and%20Hunter%201998%20Validity%20and%20Utility%20Psychological%20Bulletin.pdf)

------
morgante
Honestly, I'm amazed that email was enough to get the gig.

As an engineer who's admittedly not very social, I would have no trouble
writing that email. Are standards for non-technical people really this low
when someone applying for an engineering position has to go through grueling
interviews, code reviews, and resume checks?

(I'm sure that he was a great hire, I'm just amazed that this was sufficient
to even get an interview.)

~~~
VLM
I have a theory that due to long term permanent structural economic changes,
there's a whole generation (or more) younger than myself who never worked a
"summer"/"teen" job. This would normally be a bit excessive as a filter at
that level, but he's probably their first/only/works independently customer
service position, so they can't just hire anyone and see how/if he fits.

Most "big company" customer service jobs are up or out in a couple months on
average, annual turnover ratios in the small integer range. So even if you
make a mistake, as long as the hire passed legal, and the general firing
policies and procedures passed legal, it doesn't really matter.

------
will_brown
I think this post is more beneficial for start ups/companies/recruiters more
than job seekers. The author makes a very honest observation that speaks
volumes about the current US job market:

"I know I wouldn’t have landed this job if HireArt had been hiring using
exclusively resumes. "

For example, I have been unsuccessful in even being contacted/screened by YC
companies I have applied for, and in positions I would be highly qualified
(not necessarily over-qualified). Example, I am an attorney with 3 years
experience practicing business transactions and I applied to Contracts Manager
and Legal Coordinator positions.

I often felt if I could only get in front of a recruiter/hiring manager and
become a face rather than being just a resume in a pile that would make all
the difference, of course companies can not afford to sit down with every
candidate. Therefore, I think the author is right on point that performance
based application is a good middle ground to be employed by more employers
(pun intended).

------
leeny
I recently wrote about how eng hiring is not nearly as meritocratic as it
could be. As soon as a company gets large enough to have non-technical people
doing filtering, people who don't look great on paper end up getting cut
before anyone even gets to see their code.

[http://blog.alinelerner.com/silicon-valley-hiring-is-not-
a-m...](http://blog.alinelerner.com/silicon-valley-hiring-is-not-a-
meritocracy/)

I would love to see more stories like this, for both engineers and non-
engineers alike.

~~~
namelezz
InterviewStreet, Codility, and Hackermeter may not be the right tools to test
a candidate's skills. During the in person interview or phone interview, if a
candidate is not clear what the interviewer is asking, s/he can ask questions.
If a candidate gets stuck on an online site, who should s/he talk to? If a
candidate does not understand the question, how is s/he supported to answer
it?

~~~
pekk
These sites aren't for candidates, they're not intended to test a candidate's
skills and they're definitely not intended to help a candidate get a job. They
are intended to filter out candidates. If you have to ask a question, if you
get stuck, then you buckled under the pressure and how can you be expected to
do real work with bosses and clients giving you vague specs and yelling at
you? We only want A players. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

But the corollary to this is that the industry is really not measuring or even
very interested in skills other than interviewing-under-pressure skills.

~~~
namelezz
You are saying that "not understanding a question" means "being under
pressure" How so?

)!@#$%^&*( <\- Do you understand what that means?

"how can you be expected to do real work with bosses and clients giving you
vague specs and yelling at you?" Asking questions, communicating with your
boss and clients.

I would love to learn what an A player would do in that situation.

------
danenania
Are there necessary credentials for being hired by a YC startup? I never had
that impression.

Edit: Not trying to be snarky, I just wouldn't foresee the average YC company
putting red tape in someone's way if the person demonstrates enthusiasm and
value and the company is looking to grow.

Since you got hired by one YC company, even if you felt underqualified, I'd
guess there are probably multiple YC companies out there who would hire you.
So it seems possible that these 'necessary credentials' weren't real
requirements in the first place, just imagined ones.

------
jchen623
Very interesting and spot on. I've always thought that most interviews
(especially at the corporate level) do a pretty poor job of determining who
would actually perform well in the specified role, and I imagine a whole host
of qualified folks don't even get in the door based on a variety of
circumstances that could be out of their control...

------
6cxs2hd6
> Since then I’ve had a chance to see how HireArt helps its clients follow the
> same type of process... {{HireArt elevator pitch}}

Not only was the customer service email extremely well-written ---the entire
blog post is nicely crafted to deliver this payload paragraph.

IOW I am both cynical and impressed. I see what you did there... and
reluctantly congratulate you.

------
simonebrunozzi
This is a great story for the simple reason that ODesk was able to find a very
effective way to "test" candidates, without going through the boring,
repetitive, outdated task of checking the resume, doing phone interviews, etc.

Well done, and congratulations for your job. I hope that many companies will
be inspired by this post.

------
outericky
FWIW - in my previous company I/we tried to hire the best people for the job,
regardless of credentials and I think we did a good job of it. I take that
experience now and apply it to hiring for our newly minted YC company. Same
leadership, better pedigree.

------
hga
The Ask The Headhunter guy says this is the very best way to get hired:
demonstrate to the hiring manager that you can do the job (and the author is
modest, there was a _lot_ more that was good about his prose than that he'd "
_used proper spelling and grammar_ ", although I'm sure the promptness was
critical).

it's better than any set of "credentials", which are a poor proxy for
demonstrating this.

It's one reason lots of us test programmers on both simple coding (FizzBuzz or
hopefully a bit harder, I also put some code with errors on the white board),
and then, at least in my case, work through a design problem with them. All
proxies for showing they can do the job.

------
mseehase
Great Story. Stories like this give me back my faith in humanity. Often
Companies are looking for the 20 year old senior with 10 year experience in
the same job, they are applying for.

However in the startup world the hiring process you experienced at ODesk is
very common. Most startups don’t have a HR team to do all the personnel stuff.
The CEOs and 'techies' decide who is joining the company and they are focused
on your skillset. Can that applicant deal with our everyday problems? Which of
course makes sense; they don’t necessarily need a senior or principle. They
need someone who can get the job done.

I’m happy for you and wish you best of luck doing the job you’ve always
wanted.

------
eksith
Soft skills are a form of credential too. I'd say it's one of the most
important credentials you can have.

People can learn to program, learn systems and even learn whole languages. But
often, they have the most difficulty learning to communicate empathically and
effectively. This is a vital skill that, I believe, is more important than
just knowing systems or knowing how to program.

The other stuff you can work on the side.

Talking to people on a humane level seems to be largely ignored or even
regarded with condescension among technical people and I think that's really a
shame.

------
jheriko
this is quite interesting.

so i had no credentials or experience when i got my first tech job. although
my experience was at a AAA game dev. i became a rendering programmer which is
generally considered to be a specialised role as well... this was down to a
combination of personal connections, having a rock solid demo and knowing my
stuff inside and out.

my experience there was that oxford graduates with 5 years + experience ranged
in quality from 'gifted hard worker' to 'dead weight' with a heavy leaning
towards the 'dead weight' end. literally you could have replaced some of these
people with large rocks and it would have saved the company money.

being able to demo skills is valuable and should be expected during hiring
imo, but sadly many employers have not grasped this in their interview and
selection process. on the other hand in small high pressure teams avoiding bad
hires is super important...

imo this is the genius of the test you were given - unlike almost every single
examination and course work in academia, it puts you into a real world
situation and demands a solution without warning (knowing when your exam is)
support (lecturers) or cheat sheets (textbooks).

------
lebronj
Congrats! Awesome story and very encouraging. As an employee who was hired
based on a "list of credentials" I know how intimidating it can be to apply
for jobs. I've heard quite a few of these cases where a company has diverged
from the traditional hiring process and has had success and I think it's
awesome. The current traditional process is definitely broken and needs
change. Enjoy your new job!

------
tarof
It's great to hear that someone who didn't have the creds was able to get
hired at a start-up. Too often the best people don't get noticed.

------
twosix
Awesome story. I'm in a similar boat myself with trying to break into the QA
field with no prior experience. I've been turned down from every position I've
applied to so far despite teaching myself some Selenium and putting my tests
on Github. I'm not going to give up my dream but damn if it doesn't get
discouraging after having so many doors closed on you.

------
Morphling
I feel like the title is little misleading or maybe I'm just bias and I
immediately thought that he got a developer job when he is "just" a social
media/helpdesk kind a person, which is a job that needs to be done of course,
but there are a lot more qualified people to do it than there are engineers

------
RougeFemme
He didn't have the necessary credentials for a _tech_ position at the start-
up, but he obviously had what was needed - not necessarily "credentials" \-
for his current position. Kudos to him.

------
photorized
That was a poorly written response.

"Your clients are important to you", etc.

------
chrisgd
Just continues to speak to the benefit of a probationary period or some other
tests that are actually applicable to the job before hiring.

Thanks for sharing.

------
onewong
great story

