

Ask HN: How do you find work? - Zarathu

I'm a freelance RoR and PHP developer with every other relevant skill set (XHTML, CSS, AJAX, SQL, et cetera), but I'm having a rather difficult time finding work.<p>I'm rushing Craigslist, writing on my blog, and asking everyone I know if they know anyone in need.<p>The economy has been treating me miserably lately, and I haven't had work in over a month.  Do any of you guys have tips for me?
======
palish
I found my first job by going to my highschool job fair and begging a guy from
Boeing to let me work as a programmer. He told me I was too young (just turned
17 at the time) but since I was "highly motivated" he would call some friends
on my behalf. He referred me to a local business that develops frimware. After
I explained that I had been developing game development skills for years using
C++, they said I'd probably be a better fit at Ageia (a St Louis company that
developed physics middleware called PhysX, and was recently acquired by
nVidia).

I thought, "How am I going to get the attention of the executives? I'm 17,
there's no way I can just submit a resume and get hired." So I scoured the
internet for any Ageia phone numbers I could find. I called one of them, and a
guy who spoke Chinese picked up. "Um... hello?" and he hung up. But I noticed
a pattern in all of the numbers I found. They all started with the same 5
digits (for example, 555-1212, 555-1286, etc). So I changed the last two
digits to 01 and tried, and nobody picked up. Then I tried 02 and got one of
the top execs on the phone. I convinced him to let me show him some of my
gamedev demos the following day. After that, he told me that he was impressed,
but to prove my skills, I had two weeks to create a demo using PhysX. Two
weeks later, I had created three simple but effective demos.

He seemed pretty impressed at that point, and even told me "you definitely
have a job here". Then I didn't. He couldn't get special permission to hire a
17-year old, because I couldn't sign the NDA. But he asked John Ratcliff (who
worked at Ageia at the time) if he knew of any local companies I'd be a good
fit at. He did, and it turned out that there was a gamedev studio about 30
minutes away from where I lived. I was really excited, and they invited me to
take their programmer test.

The guy who handed me the test said "I hope you know your C++"... he wasn't
exactly confident in me, apparently. (I don't blame him, most candidates
suck.) But I took the test and got a decent score. Up next was the interview
phase, where around 8 programmers came in and sat at a large table in the
conference room. I presented my demos to them (including my three previous
Ageia demos).

I dropped out of high school and worked there as an unpaid intern for about 8
months, at which point I was hired and worked there for three years. Also, the
time between the job fair and my first day on the job was several months, so
the whole process took a lot of effort.

So my advice is, demos are key; talk to the decision-makers, not the
middlemen; and demonstrate your skill in every other possible way (but mostly
shut up and let other people talk, because you don't know 1/10th of what you
think you know).

Also, be genuinely interested in other people. Almost everyone likes the idea
of being a mentor.

~~~
mistermann
"So my advice is, demos are key"

Exactly correct. If you don't have any, you're likely not as skilled as you
think.

~~~
oemta
Ok, so demos are great to have. As a person in charge of hiring, what kind of
demos would you like to see in a candidate? What kind of portfolio should a
person without demos try to develop for the purpose of trying to get a job?

~~~
sanswork
It depends on the job. I'm hiring web devs at the moment so cool functioning
sites are great(but rare). I'm certain a few little games I wrote in
javascript(blackjack, and copies of a few of the games from kde games) got me
my first job in web development. The CTO loved the blackjack game in
particular.

I guess the best advice would just be anything interesting that shows off your
skills.

------
jacquesm
Hm. My work finds me most of the time, but every now and then I'm running on
'idle' for a month or more and I start to look around. One of the things I've
found over the years that it pays big time to keep in contact with all your
business buddies. Let them know you exist and that you still remember them and
every now and then a job will pop out of that.

Networking is a thing that I seriously hate, you won't find me on cocktail
parties / friday get togethers, I live far away from my customer base but an
occasional email does wonders in staying attached and maintaining mindshare.

It's a bit like a pipeline, jobs are always pushed in on one end and out the
other when they're done, if you neglect the 'in' queue while focusing on a job
you'll see a longer gap by the time that you're ready for the next one. That's
a tricky balancing act when you are a single freelancer, maybe teaming up with
a few other people with similar or complimentary skills would help you to find
work easier, and if too many people say 'yes' at the same time you can always
divide the load.

Also, the economy really is down, and lots of tech projects are on hold or
being scrapped right now, this is not the best time to be looking for work.

~~~
Zarathu
Thanks for this. I need to network a little more.

~~~
byrneseyeview
Be careful about what you do when you 'network'. If you contact people without
a having a good reason for it, they'll learn to think of you as someone who
doesn't value their time. Instead, it's just good to get in the habit of
thinking, every time you learn something, "I wonder who among my business
contacts would find this most useful."

~~~
jacquesm
Yes, that's an excellent point, I make sure I really do have a reason. Part of
that is to keep an eye out for stuff that is useful to my 'network' and
alerting people to that. The funny thing is that they repay in kind and you'd
be amazed at some of the stuff that comes 'back' to me in this way. It really
does seem to work like the karma counter on this site.

------
amjith
Write tutorials on your blog. Don't hesitate to share your knowledge. Even if
you don't have great writing skills, people are attracted to quality content
and tips & tricks. Put a link on your blog that you are available for hire.
Publicize your blog through the right medium (reddit, digg, dzone).

There are plenty of wall in the hole restaurants that don't have a good
website. Offer to build them one for just $100, it doesn't take more than 3
hours to finish a website for a small restaurant. Some of the mom and pop
restaurants don't even know how to host websites, so offer them to do all the
hosting and maintaining for them in exchange for free food every week (or an
extra fee of say $100). Put a webcounter and keep track of who is visiting and
try to publicize it in Yelp, local.Yahoo, local.Google etc. Expand your offer
to small businesses (clothing stores or boutiques) and show them your
portfolio. Don't just try to impress them with the webdesign showcase. Try to
show them how a website for a restaurant had brought more customers to them.
Show them some numbers.

Start building something on the side and try to make it popular. It doesn't
have to be the next big thing. It can be a small news aggregator or a recipe
collection site with some user interaction. Keep your skill set sharp and use
it to market yourself. If you truly made a new product that people love you
won't even need to find work, you'll be working for yourself.

~~~
raamdev
> so offer them to do all the hosting and maintaining for them in exchange for
> free food every week

I do this with a local vegan restaurant. They're the only one in the area and
although I love eating there, they are a bit expensive.

One day I was having trouble getting on their free wireless network, so when I
went to the counter to pay for my meal I mentioned the problem to the owner.
Recognizing that I eat there all the time, she asked if I wanted to take a
look at the wireless router in the backroom. All I did was restart the router
and it worked again. The owner said the $18 meal was on the house for fixing
the wireless.

Now I'm hosting their website and taking care of all tech support in return
for an open tab. I bill the owner but mark the balance as $0 and in return I
never pay for food when I eat there. My good relationship with the owner has
led her to introduce me to other local restaurant owners and now I do work for
them too.

------
jjguy
You need to find the thing that distinguishes you from your peers. My story is
undoubtedly different than yours, but I'll share parts; perhaps it can help
you.

I went to college on a military scholarship. After four years of school, I
spent 6 years in the military. Three critical things came from those years:
contacts, credibility and experience.

After a couple tours, the military's plans for my career and my own ideas
didn't sync up. I left and used a contact to land a nice job doing exactly
what I wished. I floated my resume around, but serious offers only came from
those I knew. I got other offers, but they were in a different class.

I've been with the same organization for several years. It's awesome. I get
calls occasionally from those old contacts, asking if I'm ready to move on
yet. I'm not, but when I do, I'm unlikely to "hit the market." I'll make a few
calls, express some interest and find a home.

I'll say this: your technical skills alone will not land you the _awesome_
work. There are plenty who (claim to) have the same skills; in the world we
live in, it's very difficult to distinguish between us and charlatans without
experience. For me, the military provided the contacts and touch of
reassurance a hiring manager needs to make a decision.

You need to find your distinguisher. If you don't have one, make it. The other
comments here provide plenty of ideas how you can do so.

~~~
edw519
_You need to find your distinguisher. If you don't have one, make it._

Best advice you will ever get here. True for _everything_ , not just freelance
work.

------
menloparkbum
You're doing the right things. It's just very bad right now for freelance
work. I have an artsy-fartsy startup but do heinous "enterprise" style Rails
contracting to make money. My contract was just terminated, because I was too
expensive. I think I was replaced by two others who were charging a lot less
than me. So, I guess if you want to keep working you'll probably have to lower
your rate or else get lucky.

That sounded a bit pessimistic.. I guess for practical tips, Twitter seems to
be a new venue for finding work that actually seems fruitful.

------
ejs
I often think it would be beneficial if HN had some directory that people
could list their skills if they are willing to freelance.

Often times I would like to work with someone more skilled in UI and design
and would rather work with someone who posted on here regularly. Seems like it
would be less risky then say any of the elance/ rent a coder type deals.

I have thought it would be nice if there was a site devoted more to building a
business relationship then just low-ball pricing to get projects done. Maybe I
should just build one, but getting enough people to make it worthwhile would
be the difficult part.

~~~
tocomment
The rentacoder but for long term freelance relationships is a great idea.
Email me if build one. I'd like to help.

------
shuleatt
For one thing it is not obvious how to contact you. Your blog has one
ambiguous link for email but it doesn't even load. Maybe obvious, but you need
to make it simple for someone to reach you.

Nevertheless I am actually looking for RoR help. Hit me up: sam dot huleatt @
yahoo dot com

------
mikeyur
As simple as it sounds, be social. There are countless times where I've been
looking for work and a simple twitter message has resulted in business friends
pointing me in the direction of their friends, and so on.

Use twitter search to check out who is looking for a RoR or PHP dev. This is
how I get most of my SEO work - there's usually a business asking for someone
and I just follow and send them a quick message.

------
tontoa4
Did you try Scriptlance.com, HireACoder.com, or any of those type of sites?

I know there are some cheap people on there, but those that use that kind of
site often know not to hire the least expensive.

Do you have any ideas of your own?

Take this time to create your own startup. I have a ton of ideas that are
self-sustaining if you're interested.

~~~
Zarathu
Yes, I have two startups that are on their way to being very successful.
Though, it'll take 4-6 months before I'm financially free of working at all.

Unfortunately, I don't have that much saved up.

~~~
moe
So you're saying in 4-6 months you'll be free of working at all but worry
about these 4-6 months? Sorry, sounds fishy to me.

~~~
randallsquared
When I read that, I assumed there was an implicit "if all goes well". :)

------
sanswork
If it's an option for you relocate. I'm desperate for PHP/Ruby developers in
Sydney and I know when I was last in Toronto it was the same way. We just
can't find decent developers that aren't already in a great job. Even if
moving isn't an option try finding cities with real shortages and looking if
you can telecommute?

~~~
kungfooey
What exactly is involved in relocating across international borders? Perhaps I
should post this as a Q. I would love to relocate to another country for a
while, but I find the paperwork to be intimidating.

~~~
sanswork
I posted this in your submission as well but just posting it here for anyone
that didn't see that.

It honestly depends where you are and where you are going. I'm from Canada
originally. When I moved to England I had to go to the embassy and fill out a
form and show some birth certificates(I was claiming ancestry). I'm now in
Australia on a working holiday visa. To get that I filled out a form on a web
page and got an email a few hours later with my visa number.

In both cases I found a job when I got there.

------
joshsharp
There was a similar thread not long ago:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=445776>

And my comment from that thread: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=445836>

------
JacobAldridge
_I'm...asking everyone I know if they know anyone in need_

Good, but: Are you clear on exactly what your ideal client looks like? If
you're not, then this question won't be clear. If the question is vague or
general, it's easier to answer 'no' than to think about it.

You'll get more responses with a clear question like "Know any business owners
with less than 20 staff who want to use their technology better?" than asking
the vague "Know anyone who needs RoR and PHP work?"

(Obviously, you know how to phrase this for your service offering better than
I.)

Also, don't just ask if they know anyone in need. Ask who _they know that may
know_ anyone in need - this will open more doors, and prevent dead ends in
your contact base.

------
nolanbrown23
Put a some info in your profile here; you never know who needs help with their
startup.

Have you tried some of the Gig boards that are out there like 37Signals and
Joel on Software? I've had good luck with those before trying to find a way to
make some spending money.

~~~
sachinag
Seriously. People who are freelancers and don't have stuff in their profile
irritate me. We're always looking for people with skillsets like yours.

~~~
Zarathu
Fixed. :)

------
ejs
I find this very difficult as well (although I am just getting started), but I
can only really blame myself for not being more social (as mentioned here). It
is just much easier to code up more stuff or work on a new project then it is
to really market ones self. I also worry that I focus too much on learning
different things and should instead focus on a just one or two specialties.

I am glad I came across this thread, very good information and advice to
really keep motivated. Thanks again for the great advice HN.

------
iuguy
Think about the things that you've done. Think about the sectors, the
solutions, the requirements.

Find similar things. If you can re-use what you've already done you're halfway
to a profitable solution, but it lets you bid lower than the next guy.

Find your niche. Exploit it. Reuse it. Recycle. The possibilities are endless.

------
bkbleikamp
Network like your life depended on it (maybe it does?). A few good contacts
are worth more than any job board or anything else.

You need to find other good networkers. Once you find them, help them before
they help you. Prove to them that recommending you will make them look good,
too.

------
subbu
Create a profile on LinkedIn (if you don't have one already) and subscribe to
'Ruby on Rails' and other specific groups. I have seen quite a few contracts
(both full-time and part-time) on 'Ruby on Rails' group. May you will find
some luck there. Good luck.

------
davidw
Open source projects are a way to keep yourself visible, although of course
that's not an immediate way to find work. Ask friends, lower your prices...
it's probably tough with the current economy.

------
Trainwreck
Have you tried oDesk or Elance type of venues? There are also Rent-a-coder
type sites as well. Good Luck! Send me your resume in case I hear of anything.

------
rdrimmie
Are there any relevant local meetups or foo/bar/startup/etc camps? Any sort of
gathering where there'll be other local people you can meet and talk to?

------
petercooper
There are lots of people looking for freelance Rails developers. You need to
engage with the community more somehow to ferret them out.

------
known
I suggest you publish a really useful and re-usable .Net/J2EE/Android/FLOSS
(for e.g. memcached) code on your website.

------
edw519
Your existing customers are your most easily converted prospects. Surely,
there's something else they need, right?

------
rubing
Start offering free weekly classes on programming at your local starbucks.
Make it something real general like homepages for small business. Or facebook
profiles, crap like that. Then if somebody wants more substantial private help
or consultation you can charge them for it.

~~~
tjr
On a similar note, look into teaching continuing education classes at your
local community college, or giving presentations at, e.g., ACM/IEEE meetings.

------
albertcardona
I made a website for a tiny open source project of mine, that addressed image
segmentation and 3D visualization of meshes.

I added a link to that web page: "Hire me". And I got hired at a very nice
research institute for an intership. Later I became group leader there.

Bottom line: have something to show, and don't be shy about it.

