
Why Yahoo Couldn’t Adapt to the Smartphone Era - wallflower
http://www.newyorker.com/business/currency/why-yahoo-couldnt-adapt-to-the-iphone-era
======
harryf
The reason why Yahoo! has failed so far with their mobile apps is very simple
- they try to force users to login. For example the new (supposedly awesome)
Flickr app [http://i.imgur.com/i6mjzHZ.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/i6mjzHZ.jpg) or
Tumblr [http://i.imgur.com/QpbDE4r.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/QpbDE4r.jpg) \-
there's no way to "dip your toe in" without creating a login.

Luke Wroblewski nailed this long ago - "Mobile Signup Forms must Die"
[http://www.lukew.com/ff/entry.asp?1678](http://www.lukew.com/ff/entry.asp?1678)
\- it's not rocket science but if you allow your old school web thinking to
define your app UX, you will fail. If you have any clue about mobile audiences
you use gradual engagement to allow them to get on board incrementally.

The average mobile user probably has about 30 seconds to give you until the
next push notification from WhatsApp, Snapchat, Instagram, Twitter or whatever
distracts them and their gone. If you waste that time on forcing them through
a signup process, don't expect to see uptake.

And failing by login isn't a new thing for Yahoo! For many happy Flickr users
(myself included) they killed it for us by forcing Yahoo login onto the site.
From [http://gizmodo.com/5910223/how-yahoo-killed-flickr-and-
lost-...](http://gizmodo.com/5910223/how-yahoo-killed-flickr-and-lost-the-
internet)

> Yahoo's RegID solution turned out to be a nightmare for the existing
> community. You could no longer use your existing Flickr login to get to your
> photos, you had to use a Yahoo one. If you did not already have a Yahoo
> account, you had to create one. And you did not even log in on Flickr's home
> page, upon arriving, you were immediately kicked over to a Yahoo login
> screen.

...but that's another story. I'm still bitter

~~~
Grue3
What social mobile apps _don 't_ require you to login? Twitter does, Facebook
does, Google+ does, I can't name a single one that doesn't.

~~~
ansible
I think the point is that you should be allowed to browse without a login.
Then, when you want to use any of the social features, you will be asked to
create an account.

I've looked at photos on Flickr without having an account on the web, why not
with a mobile app too?

~~~
jonas21
That's fine, but the claim that "The reason why Yahoo! has failed so far with
their mobile apps is very simple - they try to force users to login" doesn't
hold up when the most popular app in the world forces uses to log in.

~~~
harryf
> the claim [...] doesn't hold up when the most popular app in the world
> forces uses to log in.

Strongly disagree. Facebook (which I assume is what you mean by "the most
popular app") was and still is _the_ social network. It's success on mobile
has been driven by massive network effects. As such they can force users to
jump through hoops which are in Facebook's favour because users want in so
badly. That said Facebook doesn't get a free pass on device permissions, which
is why they use gradual engagement in Messenger like this:
[http://installclub.tumblr.com/post/82319976281/double-opt-
in...](http://installclub.tumblr.com/post/82319976281/double-opt-in-to-
permissions)

But if you want to attack the leader, or simply grow your mobile user base,
you don't get the same luxury or network effects Facebook has. Yahoo! doesn't
have anything users want _so_ bad that they'll jump through hoops to get it.

But anyway - another a great example of an app "doing it right" is Airbnb -
they let you browse properties without logging in - see
[http://firsttimeux.tumblr.com/post/83588089909/airbnb-ios-
ap...](http://firsttimeux.tumblr.com/post/83588089909/airbnb-ios-app-first-
time-user-experience-the) for details - this gives people a chance to see what
they're getting before going through the pain of signup. This is the model
Yahoo! should follow as their apps, like Airbnb, are primarily about the
content not the social element

------
slashink
It's interesting how fast the narrative shifted, about one year ago i was
reading a long in depth article here on HN on how Marissa Mayer was out to
transform Yahoo into a company fit for 2015 and how she was succeeding. Fast
forward 1 year later and the articles are mainly about how Yahoo is failing.

What does this tell me? I don't know really, is it hard to transform a company
like Yahoo? Probably. Is the media surrounding tech and startup culture way to
fast to draw conclusions, for sure.

~~~
hanniabu
If I remember correctly, a lot of comments on those articles were claiming
that those changes wouldn't fix the sinking ship and that it seemed like they
were flailing actions with no thought really put into it.

~~~
slashink
Actually you are right. I remeber this also, people seem to have catched on.
Although my question is probably more aimed against the media endlessly
throwing articles of this cycle out.

------
hodder
The problem with Yahoo in my opinion is that is the tail being wagged by the
dog (baba), and that Marissa Mayer's hobby is to set cash on fire. Once BABA
is separated, and Mayer is 'remixed, a creative CEO may very well be able to
turn it around.In my opinion the business is ripe to follow a Berkshire model
of using cash flow from the dying business (search engine) to buy a few free
cash generating, growing businesses.

~~~
dhimes
In my opinion, they need to focus. Cut a bunch of stuff, find a niche they can
dominate, and rebuild. Either be a bad-ass server platform, amazing social
app, or perhaps apply themselves towards a select group of people (aging
seniors or something)-- whatever they think they can do-- but _focus_. It will
be painful. But it's their best path forward I think.

~~~
hodder
Makes sense, but the problem is, those niches described are filled by
entrenched competitors, or don't really justify the market cap. I feel the
best for the company is juicing rev, earnings, and FCF, and they can't do that
by trying to get a foothold in saturated markets as the cost is too huge or
ramp up time too long.

I am also not proposing they take a VC approach like they have where they pay
huge multiples hoping to somehow have the success at selecting winners like
yc. I am proposing they buy companies that are generating growing free cash
flow at sub 25x levels.

~~~
dhimes
My niches were not meant to be a knowledgeable insight, just examples. And you
have a good point about buying cash-generating companies (companies that are
winning the niche battles). But they really need to focus- and only buy
companies that are in that focus. If they are a media company then they are
competing with Condé Nast, Youtube, and bloggers everywhere. But if they are,
for example, an educational media company, then the scope is clearer and they
can muster some leverage.

------
frankmeehan
Yahoo had brilliant mobile talent 2004-2008 - smart engineering and product
talent that I remember meeting and they knew what was going on. But Yahoo
management from 2007-2011 was terrible - ad execs overpaid with little clue
about the tech world or what was happening outside their high castle. The
second problem from which Yahoo never recovered was going HTML5. FB went HTML5
and the mobile product was a disaster. But FB quickly recognised that and went
native - Yahoo took too long to fix issues like that. And the article is of
course spot on about Tumblr - when they needed messaging they bought a blog
platform.

~~~
hliyan
Could you point me to some material about the problems Yahoo and FB had with
HTML5 on mobile? I'm currently in this space and would rather avoid this fate!

------
protomyth
I really want to know why Yahoo did not turn Flickr into the premier website
for social media pictures? I think that will tell the whole Yahoo / Smartphone
Era story.

~~~
neilk
This article details some of the issues we encountered with Yahoo.
[http://gizmodo.com/5910223/how-yahoo-killed-flickr-and-
lost-...](http://gizmodo.com/5910223/how-yahoo-killed-flickr-and-lost-the-
internet)

I would add though, that Flickr Mobile (which I worked on a little) was
considered one of the best mobile websites ever made. However, because a
certain executive had managed to get control of all of Yahoo's mobile
experiences, we weren't allowed to innovate with mobile too much.

When a native Flickr app was finally released, I was no longer at Flickr. But
I heard that it had been developed by a different team at Yahoo, and was a
complete surprise to Flickr upon launch. The new app hit the "random" API so
hard for their login screen, to the Flickr staff, it looked like a DDOS.

But I think we all missed on the opportunity mobile offered because we were
trying to shrink Flickr into a mobile site. Flickr was designed for
serendipity and rich experiences. If you were a creative person, looking to
participate in a planetary social-cultural conversation, it was incredible.

Meanwhile, Facebook made photos into an accessory for the average person's
social life. For creative people and dabblers, Instagram offered the best
mobile experience; it worked with the constraints of the platform and even
turned those into features.

Something of this dichotomy is still playing out with Twitter and Facebook
taking opposite poles. Although it looks like Twitter has finally given up and
decided that it's a Kardashian photo delivery system or something.

~~~
protomyth
I think that pretty much sums up why Yahoo went to hell and cannot adapt. My
sympathies on having to deal with that. I wonder how many business have gone
under because of need to "scale and act professionally"?

------
perseusprime11
I think the fundamental issue is culture. They were always organized like a
media company, not a tech company. Marissa tried few different tricks like new
logo, better UX, yahoo weather app, hired news show hosts, but none of them
worked. In the end, they ran out of time proving you can't acquire your way or
pivot your way to success.

------
gcb0
the article proves the author has zero knowledge and is just dozing on the
subject when it doesn't contest that yahoo having no mobile effort was not bad
product managers/execs decision, but instead goes on agreeing with the point-
haired boss idea that it lacked mobile engineers. as of some engineers were
born to work exclusively on mobile.

what a load of bs.

------
reacweb
I think Mayer has done a fantastic job in improving the reputation of yahoo. I
still have a yahoo mail (that I give when I am affraid of spam). Since she is
CEO, the experience has improved a lot. The yahoo news are not too bad, ...

Transforming reputation in good money takes a lot of time. IMHO, the investors
should give trust and time to Mayer before expected results. If they fire
Mayer, yahoo will be dead and they will lose everything. For me, the main
handicap of yahoo is their cupid investors.

~~~
TheOtherHobbes
If they fire Mayer, Yahoo will probably be sold and they'll get something back
before the value tanks.

Mayer doesn't need more time. She's a competent middle manager and an
excellent researcher promoted beyond the scope of her talents, and she made
the classic mistake of misunderstanding the difference between a popular
platform and a range of products that users really want.

Now she's out of time and out of ideas.

~~~
Artistry121
Another view is that Yahoo! began facing stiff competition from a few of the
greatest minds in the world before she was brought on and playing catchup is
nearly impossible unless missteps are made by those in the market lead.

It's possible that the situation at Yahoo has been too tough to remedy for
years and no matter how competent she was she couldn't turn it around.

------
known
Why Microsoft Couldn't Adapt Internet/Smartphone Era?

------
franze
>its engineers were using HTML5, a programming language that ...

~~~
gonvaled
HTML + CSS is Turing complete

~~~
stepanhruda
Magic the Gathering is Turing complete. That doesn't mean you should refer to
it as a programming language.

~~~
_Codemonkeyism
Any link on how Magic the Gathering is Turing complete? The only thing I could
find is how to represent a Turing machine with Magic cards.

~~~
sika_grr
[http://www.toothycat.net/~hologram/Turing/HowItWorks.html](http://www.toothycat.net/~hologram/Turing/HowItWorks.html)

~~~
Retric
That's not a valid game state. It's like saying chess is Touring complete when
played on an infinite board.

~~~
palunon
By this argument, x84_64 assembly isn't Turing complete because it needs
finite memory...

Which is technically correct, just not very useful.

~~~
DonHopkins
My Philosophy of Computer Science professor argued that you could prove
anything was Turing complete, by suitably "gerrymandering the inputs" of your
definition.

What that actually means, I'm not sure. I know how gerrymandered congress is,
and they couldn't possibly get enough work done to be Turing complete.

