
Spike Lee Shares His NYU Teaching List of Essential Films - pmcpinto
http://www.openculture.com/2013/07/spike-lee-shares-his-nyu-teaching-list-of-87-essential-films-every-aspiring-director-should-see.html
======
mikeash
Nearly the whole conversation here is about how terrible it was to update the
list to include some women.

Imagine if instead of "women" it was something else. Maybe, "Why didn't you
include any Soviet filmmakers?" Or, "What about Alfred Hitchcock?" Or maybe,
"You should include some films from the silent era." And imagine Spike Lee
took those suggestions and said, you know what, you're right, I _should_
include some films from the silent era, there's some great stuff in there.

Would you be just as upset about Spike Lee bending to his critics instead of
sticking to his guns in that case? Or would you see that maybe there is some
merit in this sort of back-and-forth? Would you accept a suggestion for
"silent films" but rail against a suggestion for "films by female directors"?
If so, why is that, exactly? Does the merest suggestion of political
correctness shut off your thinking?

~~~
wmeredith
The reason it irks me is because it has nothing to do with the quality of the
film, which this list is ostensibly based on. What if the suggestion was,
"There aren't enough movies that start with the letter F, Spike you should add
some so as not seem letterist."

Taking the sex of the director, or writer, or lighting tech, into account
weakens the list because you're introducing noise into your criteria.

~~~
mikeash
Maybe it strengthens the list by getting him to consider things he didn't
previously consider.

Everyone loves to assume the worst, here. The original list was apparently
perfect, and any change is an adulteration. I wonder why?

~~~
uremog
Most commenters seem to be assuming that he took his original criteria
seriously and the result happened to be one that some people found offensive.
I think that's assuming the best. Meanwhile, those offended seem to be
assuming the worst - some sort of bias.

~~~
aninhumer
>Most commenters seem to be assuming that he took his original criteria
seriously ... Meanwhile, those offended seem to be assuming the worst - some
sort of bias.

Firstly, I'm not offended by the original list, and I don't think many people
were. Most people arguing here are offended by the reaction to the additions.

But more importantly, I don't think someone has to be biased to simply not
think of particular films when compiling his list, nor do I think one has to
be "not taking it seriously" in order to do so.

------
StavrosK
> When Spike originally released this list, many noted the lack of female
> filmmakers. Lee accepted that critique and released an updated list.

Does that mean that he saw movies that he felt were worthy of being on the
list and (perhaps subconsciously) decided not to list them? Or did he end up
listing some movies that he didn't feel were as good as the others, just to
meet the quota?

~~~
aninhumer
Why are so many people assuming that the initial list represented his
comprehensive judgement of all films ever?

Is it not far more likely that he added films as sufficiently important ones
occurred to him, and at some point decided the list was fairly comprehensive
and stopped?

Then subsequently, someone pointed out that there weren't many films by female
directors, and this prompt made him think of a bunch of other films worth
adding?

~~~
dhimes
_Why are so many people assuming that the initial list represented his
comprehensive judgement of all films ever?_

Because he's doing it in his role of NYU professor! If Donald Knuth released a
list of "CS papers every professional should read," I would fully expect it to
be his comprehensive judgement of all papers ever. Do you think that he may
have missed one? Do you think Spike may have? In both cases it's their
professional environment, and I would expect that it would have been discussed
in their professional environments. To imply that they missed something
important is to imply that their close colleagues missed it too. It could
happen, of course, but not something that you think about when you read a list
like that.

Until you see that he missed "Captain Ron." Then all bets are off.

~~~
lake99
I would apply more lenient standards when looking at lists of arts or crafts.
Sure, Spike Lee is a professional in the field, and I am not. But many of the
films I see in his list, I would consider "boring". This is _his_ personal
list of films that contain important teaching moments. And because it is the
arts, the list _has_ to be personal.

Knuth leaving out an important CS paper may do grave disservice to a huge
chunk of the field (Edit: I mean disservice to the readers who intend to learn
from the list). Science and technology builds on prior work. The arts, not so
much. If I ignore the lessons taught by "The Godfather", the film I'm making
may be weak in some aspects, as judged by some people. If I ignore the lessons
taught by Turing's works on computability, my software (or research paper)
could potentially be stillborn.

~~~
dhimes
_I would apply more lenient standards when looking at lists of arts or crafts_

Why? I would expect the top of the line people in the arts to be as
professional as in any other field. I would expect that great directors (and
actors for that matter) have a notebook (or something) of great scenes and why
they are great. I would expect artists to have their equivalent.

I mean, goddamn, if you are a great director and you say you have a list of
essential viewing, then, yeah, I would assume that according to you the list
would be at least very nearly complete. If may evolve a bit over time after
review and discussion, but I wouldn't expect a 30% change in the list.

------
dommer
The list has little value in isolation. A brief context about why a particular
film is in the list would be much more helpful. The audience can then
understand why he included "controversial" directors like Gibson.

The list on its own is just a list of films to watch that someone
enjoyed...and everyone would most likely have a different list.

~~~
waterlesscloud
I'd counter that if you watch the films on this list and don't understand why
Lee included them, you're not likely to be a good film director.

~~~
elthran
But this is a list for aspiring directors - If I'm currently aspiring to be a
better director, then some level of explanation would be beneficial to me

~~~
bazzargh
It's a list for aspiring directors _who are part of the NYU Graduate Film
program_ [http://tisch.nyu.edu/grad-film/courses](http://tisch.nyu.edu/grad-
film/courses) ... and they get three years of context.

You could ask for context from any university reading list...
[http://www.kings.cam.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/offerholders/...](http://www.kings.cam.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/offerholders/reading-
lists/english.html) ...they're of passing interest to people looking to be
'well read', but are provided mainly for the students, and the context is the
course.

~~~
dommer
I think that was my point. As a reader of this list, it is of passing
interest. Take the course this list accompanies and I will receive much better
context and substantially improve my understanding of their inclusion.

~~~
waterlesscloud
Well, no. You stated it was list of films someone enjoyed.

But that's not what it is. It's a list that one of the top living film
directors on the planet thinks that directing students at one of the leading
film schools in the world should watch.

That's a different thing entirely.

Each one of these films has things directors can learn from by just _watching
them_. Film being a visual medium and all.

Sure, some lectures can provide context, but the movies themselves are the
actual content.

~~~
dommer
Fair point. I'm sure he did enjoy them as well as their content being of
notable worth.

I very much doubt the list, and the act of watching them is the whole lesson
Spike is trying to impart. The lecture series would complete the educational
message.

------
jbmorgado
_" When Spike originally released this list, many noted the lack of female
filmmakers. Lee accepted that critique and released an updated list."_

It's interesting to see that people that label themselves _anti
discrimination_ actually not only live perfectly fine with _positive
discrimination_ , but they actually come to expect it as a standard policy and
take offense when it doesn't happen.

~~~
adamlett
Being anti-rascist or anti-sexist does not necessarily imply being is anti-
discrimination. To give an example, in many places positively discriminate old
people by offering lower prices or better seating. Yet it would be absurd to
claim that this constitutes ageism towards young people. It is understood that
being old is in many ways a handicap, and by discriminating positively, we
seek to lessen that handicap.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
>Yet it would be absurd to claim that this constitutes ageism towards young
people. //

Can you walk me through this?

A pensioner is a millionaire, say, and gets a free bus pass (OAPs in the UK
are entitle to a travel pass regardless of their financial position). A school
child wants to get to school but can't afford the bus so has to walk 2.9 miles
each way to school.

How is it not ageism that based only on age the pensioner gets a bus pass and
the child doesn't? You can argue that the ageism is justified as the general
principle is sound (for example) but it's still ageism - discrimination based
solely on the age of the subjects.

The child could be disabled, they still wouldn't necessarily qualify for a bus
pass.

~~~
cruise02
That's not discrimination against young people because it's not saying that
young people _aren 't allowed_ to ride the bus, just that they have to pay the
regular price. (Also, most children in the U.S. are bused to school for free.
Is that not the way it is in the UK?)

~~~
Retric
So, it's OK if normal seating is at the back of the buss, but white only
premium seating is at the front?

~~~
cruise02
If you have to make this kind of leap to support your argument, you don't have
an argument.

~~~
Retric
What leap? You said normal vs premium was perfectly acceptable? Premium
aircraft seating was at the front of the aircraft... How about if we call the
back of the bus the 'premium area' and exclude whites?

PS: If you don't defend your argument, I am going to assume you already
conceded defeat.

------
yiyus
Many people are talking about the great films that he is missing. But if this
is a list of films every aspiring director should see and not just a list of
very good films, I think it would also be important to watch bad and very bad
movies. Ed Wood should be in a list like this, for example, as well as TV
films, anime, stop-motion films...

~~~
pauly
Ed Wood or Plan 9 From Outer Space?

~~~
yiyus
Both

------
xabi
List on IMDB:
[http://www.imdb.com/list/ls070332247/](http://www.imdb.com/list/ls070332247/)

~~~
IkmoIkmo
Just to add, it's not in any particular order.

(well it is, alphabetically by the director's name)

------
crispyambulance
We should just accept that whatever anyone puts on their "must see" list is up
to personal discretion and, when asked of a director, is going to say more
about the director's viewpoint and formative experiences than anything else.

If one wants to see "all the great films", I suggest focusing on specific
genres/languages/formats one at a time rather than an uncategorized "top
10/20/87/100...".

------
pbhjpbhj
It would be interesting to see top developers list their favourite computer
programs.

Would you revise your list to be sure the lead developer on each program made
a certain distribution amongst different characteristics
sex/age/location/first-language? Should a Uni degree including dev ensure that
amongst the programs/theorems/languages studied that some were from a
particular group/sex/ethnicity/whatever?

~~~
ereckers
I would actually. "Lists" of these types get stale after a while. Providing
lusts along some defined attributes makes things interesting and can introduce
one to something that would not make a typical best of list.

Netflix is doing it with their movie suggestion (ie. Strong female lead) and
I'm sure they're not worried about being too "PC", though I'm sure some,
somewhere have intimated at it.

------
redwood
I respect his humility. However his own film "Do the Right Thing" should be on
this list.

------
contingencies
How are _The Element of Crime_ [0], _THX1138_ [1] and the _Qatsi Trilogy_ [2]
not on this list?

The former is simply _the best film ever made_ , the second interesting as a
gritty example of lowish budget success in a completely different genre from
that which the (very famous) director became known for (and is a _successful
remake_ of a film from his student days), and the latter proves once and for
all the power of cinema regardless of conventional plot.

[0]
[https://torcache.net/torrent/CC4B99AC6FE2EA3D23173F05C95F9CD...](https://torcache.net/torrent/CC4B99AC6FE2EA3D23173F05C95F9CDA6870683D.torrent?title=\[kat.cr\]the.element.of.crime.lars.von.trier.1984)

[1]
[https://torcache.net/torrent/B138110324E5F7D8AF381E553BCE0AF...](https://torcache.net/torrent/B138110324E5F7D8AF381E553BCE0AFE361B2B59.torrent?title=\[kat.cr\]thx.1138)

[2]
[https://torcache.net/torrent/447F5AA67047731AD64F10653CBEEA7...](https://torcache.net/torrent/447F5AA67047731AD64F10653CBEEA7BA7A34A8C.torrent?title=\[kat.cr\]qatsi.trilogy.1982.2002.brrip.720p.krazykarvs)

~~~
contingencies
Zero discussion downvote. Typical. HN is such a cultural community, ha!

------
sebular
I find it disappointing that the films on this list are overwhelmingly old.
Sure, many of these were groundbreaking and influential in their time, but
filmmaking has come such a long way since the days of Hitchcock, for example.

In his original list, "City of Gods" (which he didn't even spell correctly--
the english title is "City of God") is the only film made in the last 2
decades.

His updated list, which was supposed to be more inclusive to women, adds
Apocalypto, District 9, Kung Fu Hustle, and Dirty Pretty Things, all of which
are directed by men-- and he even removed "City of Gods", one of the few
movies from the original list that had a female (co)director.

In fact, the entire list reads like a giant insult to all of Lee's
contemporaries. Does he want every aspiring filmmaker to enter the business
with antiquated sensibilities about cinematography?

He's coming across like the smug high-schooler who just discovered Led
Zeppelin and declares that they're the greatest band of all time, and all
modern music is crap.

~~~
kzhahou
Maybe for an aspiring director, it's already pretty obvious what movies to see
from the last 20 years, and they've already seen them.

------
redwood
Surprised to see no Almodovar. Interesting to see a less well known Woody
Allen pic

------
skarist
Good list. However, I notice lack of movies from such great directors as Wim
Wenders and Andrei Tarkovsky. Well, I guess it is difficult to put together a
list like this anyway.

------
Tycho
Is there a site/webapp that i can drop this list into and it will tell me
which titles are available on netflix? (or other online streaming services)

~~~
f_allwein
Not the most elegant solution, but quick & easy: you could paste the list into
a Google Spreadsheet, then add a formula to create a hyperlink to Netflix.
E.g. for iTunes (I'm not on Netflix) this would be

    
    
      "http://ax.itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZSearch.woa/wa/search?term="&A1
    

, with A1 being the field for the movie title. So take a look at the Netflix
search results url and see if you can do the same there.

------
mbubb
Wow - this is lacking. Very much a Hollywood/ NYC focus.

I could think of 5 (each) Russian, Chinese, French, Indian, Japanese, Korean,
Australian films would be before "Bad Lieutenant" (a film I like a lot - esp
with the original Schooly D soundtrack)

For women - Maya Deren for historical purposes and no Chantal Ackerman or
Pilar Nair?

I am not a film buff even - this is just a crap list.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
I'm curious - why do you list women as a separate category, is there something
essentially different about how women direct? I've never watched a film and
thought "that must be by a $sex director".

~~~
mbubb
Agreed - I didn't, the article did. It is a fatuous distinction. In fact -
that categorizing is an example of the complete lack of imagination that I am
talking about.

------
gsibble
District 9 doesn't belong anywhere near this list.

------
owly
This is not much different than most film school lists. Nothing special.

------
frign
> Note: When Spike originally released this list, many noted the lack of
> female filmmakers. Lee accepted that critique and released an updated list.

Thanks, I'll stick with the original list. Given the small number of female
filmmakers in Hollywood an only-male list is not unlikely. Political
Correctness is a bitch.

~~~
cruise02
Yeah, I'd hate to be exposed to eight more great films if they were made by
women. /s

------
routerl
Apocalypto by Mel Gibson? Huh.

~~~
ekianjo
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing for that one. I'm not sure why he picked
it. I don't think Gibson as a director made any memorable movie (some are
decent but I can't see them being in such a list).

~~~
waterlesscloud
Lee picked it because it's exceptionally good cinema.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Do we know this? Perhaps there's one scene that stands out; or he feels that
the visuals are perfect but the story is terrible; or it's an example of how
you can make great movies but still be hated; or ...

------
tosseraccount
No Battleship Potemkin? No Birth of a Nation? Metropolis?

------
lqdc13
Surprising lack of Citizen Kane. At the same time, a lot of social/cultural
struggle films.

No Psycho by Hitchcock but 3 other movies by him?

Updated list completely different from the first list?

~~~
forgetsusername
> _No Psycho by Hitchcock but 3 other movies by him?_

Not like my opinion matters (nor does Mr. Lee's, in the grand scheme of
things), but Psycho probably isn't in my top 3 Hitchcock films, either.

Vertigo, The Birds, Rear Window for me. Consider Notorious, North by
Northwest, Strangers on a Train, Dial M for Murder...there are quite a few
permutations, taste dependent.

~~~
lqdc13
Unlike most of his other movies, Psycho broke ground in horror filmmaking. For
filmmakers you want the first instance of something.

[http://www.enotes.com/homework-help/film-techniques-used-
fil...](http://www.enotes.com/homework-help/film-techniques-used-film-psycho-
by-alfred-470093)

It shouldn't be a list of good movies, but movies that were responsible for
paradigm shifts.

------
johnloeber
A few observations: * No citizen kane, some other "classics" have also been
omitted * No French cinema * No silent cinema * The omission of what is
generally heralded as Kubrick's strongest work surprises me * No Tarantino

~~~
jgrahamc
> No French cinema

The following films are on Lee's list and are French:

    
    
        Les 400 coups (400 Blows), Truffaut
        La Nuit américaine (Day for Night), Truffaut
        A bout du souffle (Breathless), Godard
        Paris brûle-t-il? (Is Paris Burning?), Clément
    

So 4/87 (approx 5%) of his films are French.

------
wmccullough
I feel bad that we now live in a world where a person can't release a list of
influential filmmakers without including another group arbitrarily. As someone
in the tech world, if someone asked me who my list of influences were, I'd be
afraid to answer for fear of being lambasted for not including Sheryl Samdberg
or Marissa Mayer.

~~~
Caprinicus
You don't have to change your lists because people complain. People complain
about everything.

------
marincounty
My favorite movies, but for no particuliar reason:

Platoon

Wall street

Three days of the condor

Chinatown

Sunset Boulevard

The Stranger(actually all of Orson Wells movies)

Any Andy Griffith episode

Bicycle thieves 1948

Niagara

Double indemnity (actually most billy wilder films)

The Misfits (last film for Marilyn and Rhett Butler--forgot his name.)

Giant

Rebal without a cause

Leaving Las Vegas

Blow out (all three)

Saturday night fever

Yes, even Urban Cowboy

One flew over the cocos nest

Deliverance

Hanna and her sisters

East of Eden

Dr. Strange love

Back to the future

Jaws

In cold blood(with Robert Blake)

In cold blood (with Eric Roberts, and forget his name)

The asphalt jungle 1948?

All about eve

The hot rock

Little Haus Big Halsey (Redford said it was his worst movie. Yes, it's
masagonistic. Yes, he plays a jerk. But the movie captures the 70's I recall
as a kid. The filming is great. His side kick in the movie did a great job
playing a sweet, innocent, country teen.)

A lot of foreign films I have yet to see.

