
The prison inside: Japan's hikikomori lack relationships, not physical spaces - Ultramanoid
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/life/2019/06/01/lifestyle/prison-inside-japans-hikikomori-lack-relationships-not-physical-spaces/
======
AstralStorm
People in quite a few countries I've been to are more and more reluctant to
try and form a relationship with a stranger, especially one who does not seem
outgoing. No idea about the root cause of this general mistrust.

It's also easier to have substitute "network" relationships which are not
complete.

Abd it shows we're geared towards living in relatively small communities whee
everyone knows everyone, but new forced mobility breaks that, and so do long
work hours. (I believe the optimum size is somewhere around 10k and average
30h workweek, more bursty.)

My personal solution to what almost happened to me was to fix the underlying
problem with medication and start building from ground up. It took two lost
years of my life (funny enough, during studies) and it's always a risk of
relapse...

The solution is unfortunately to get really creative in finding actual
humanity around. It's rare but happens.

It is actually quite hard for an adult to find an actual connection who isn't
a spouse nowadays. You get to dig into weird social spaces like clubs (some
are really niche too) and there are few guarantees. It's also for some reason
harder for men because women still tend to build minimum social groups as a
reflex ("coffee clatches" or rumour Mills)

A lot of it is extremely superficial too which can be annoying.

~~~
humanrebar
I guess that's true if you consider churches weird. Some are weird. Most are
full of fairly normal people. Other than the desire to focus on growing as
people. And, depending on your area, the theism.

But all the other desires and concerns you list are met by millions of people
by going to church. And participating! Just like university, it's possible to
_go_ while essentially being disconnected from everyone.

And if the concern is the weirdness, most churches would be more than happy to
let folks join in on activities and charitable work with no theological or
financial commitments. I've never seen religious tests in churches other than
to _be a teacher of religion_ , which makes sense.

~~~
falcolas
Starting with the caveat of “not all churches”, but it is a very common trend.

Churches have a weird entry criteria - you have to believe in their god (which
can be offensive when it’s phrased like “you are incapable of handling your
own life, leave it to God”). And if you don’t, you’re silently and
persistently pressured into making that conversion, with a healthy dose of
pity for you and your sinful ways.

~~~
humanrebar
I've never been to a church that required people to believe anything in order
to engage in any particular way. Except to become a teacher or minister or
priest, but that's fairly common sense I think.

But, yes, people will often discuss theology and proselytize. If that sort of
thing angers you, maybe skip out after the music and then catch up with folks
when the coffee or potluck starts. Or maybe skip all of the above and just
sign up for the volunteer activities at retirement homes, women's shelters,
etc.

~~~
falcolas
> I've never been to a church that required people to believe anything in
> order to engage in any particular way.

Communion at the Catholic Church. Or entering the Mormon church at all.

~~~
richeyrw
You're probably thinking of entering a Mormon Temple. The Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-Day Saints distinguishes between churches where people meet
every Sunday, and Temples where more important ceremonies are conducted (and
which, incidentally, aren't open on Sunday).

------
hrktb
> “But the reality is that most hikikomori are people who can’t get back into
> society after straying off the path at some point,” he says. “They have been
> forced into withdrawal. It isn’t that they’re shutting themselves away —
> it’s more like they’re being forced to shut themselves away.”

Articles need some narrative, and I get that it's also trying to put the
spotlight on a different variant of a phenomenon.

But I feel it's going too strong on the opposite direction. There must be a
sizeable number of Hikikomori who cut themselves willingly from traditional
society because they feel there's nothing there for them. Others, like quoted,
are forced into it.

I'm sure the reality of it is pretty mixed and varied, especially as the
definition has been broaden to encompass people who don't get out of their
homes out of pure necessity.

------
faissaloo
I feel like this has alot of parallels with the incel movement

~~~
ThePadawan
I find it very disappointing that the definition of "incel" has now strayed
incredibly from the actual literal abbreviation of "involuntary celibate", a
rather clinical and descriptive term.

In my eyes, it now encompasses anti-feminist politics and overlaps a lot with
"redpills". What happened?

~~~
falcolas
Some people started looking for a cause of their “involuntary celibacy”, and
chose the easy route - it can’t be me, so it must be you. Once the blame has
been assigned in such a way, hatred is one easy step further.

~~~
gubbrora
What do you want them to do? Better themselves - Are they not already trying?
Accept they were born unattractive - then what, suicide?

~~~
mrguyorama
They could lower their standards and settle, as people have always done. It
doesn't feel great but companionship can be found in people who are not
"classically attractive", as much as it stings to not be an optimum mate

~~~
gubbrora
One of the big incel complaints is that the least attractive women don't want
the least attractive men. If that is indeed true there is none for them to
settle for.

~~~
krageon
Take a step outside into a busy shopping street. I think you will find you see
a lot of couples, varying from average both towards attractive and
unattractive. Maybe they are attractive to each other, I can't say. People are
into wildly different things. The point is that it's not exactly difficult to
find evidence of this complaint not being true.

Rather than a legitimate complaint, it reads more as an excuse.

------
kazinator
> _The term was coined by psychiatrist Tamaki Saito in the late 1990s_

{Citation needed.}

This seems unlikely given that "hikikomoru" is a compound verb which means to
stay inside.

If it's nice weather but someone stays at home all day, the hikikomoru verb is
used for that; it (still) doesn't have automatic connotations of it being a
way of life.

The "komoru" part has various meanings (according to EDICT): "shut oneself in
(e.g. one's room); to be confined in; to seclude oneself; to hide away; to
stay inside (one's shell)" as well as "to be heavy with (e.g. smoke); to be
stuffy; to be dense", plus others.

~~~
wiggler00m
> _The term was coined by psychiatrist Tamaki Saito in the late 1990s_

I interpret the term (n. hikikomori) differently to the verb (hikikomoru) from
which it is derived.

The term (hikikomori): individual instance of the social phenomenon of
withdrawing from society and living in persistent isolation.

The verb (hikikomoru): used in reference to a specific (non-persistent) act of
staying indoors, without necessarily carrying the broader sociological
meaning. Edit: as another comment points out, just staying indoors for a
weekend, etc.

~~~
Ultramanoid
The verb is used in normal daily conversation amongst us without the negative
connotation ( as yet, given a general context ), as explained in a previous
comment.

It's basically just staying home when you could do otherwise. A normal reply
to "what did you do last Sunday ?", etc.

------
watwut
Why is there such a fascination with hikikomori on this site?

~~~
mikekchar
Because Japan Times says, "Oh, it's been _days_ since we published an article
on hikihomori" and publish another one. People who read Japan Times, then post
it all over the place (not just HN). It gets voted up on HN for 2 reasons I
think. First, there are a lot of people who use social media (like HN) as a
crutch for dealing with their own mental health issues. Because they spend a
lot of time trying to learn how to become healthy, they are interested in a
lot of things like this (and it's not just hikikomori -- it's depression, and
schizophrenia, etc, etc). Just look at all posts about various drugs and diet
relating to mental health on HN.

The other reason is because some people like to bash Japan (and increasingly
Korea it seems to me). I don't really like the word "racist" here because it
really doesn't fit, I think. It's more culturist. Some people really _hate_
the culture and think it's wrong, so they promote stories that show it in a
bad light. I would say equally prevalent are people who unduly _love_ the
culture and promote stories that show it in a good light. There are _tons_ of
overly optimistic stories about Japan on HN.

Japan Times makes money from this second category (people who unduly hate
Japanese culture and people who unduly love Japanese culture) and so post a
ridiculous amount of trashy articles about these kinds of things. If you
really want to understand Japanese culture well, I would advise avoiding it as
much as possible. They are only in it to whip up emotion as far as I can tell.

~~~
Ultramanoid
> _Some people really hate the culture and think it 's wrong, so they promote
> stories that show it in a bad light._

I posted this story. I certainly don't hate my own home or culture. Rather I
think one must have lived a very sheltered life in Japan not to have been
affected by the hikikomori issue, by alcoholism, or both, which I'd argue are
the two biggest problems today in Japanese society, bar none.

Japan Times criticism is valid, somewhat. It's certainly not top notch
journalism, very few articles are these days. But I can't quite go and post a
study of hikikomori in Japanese.

Not a single person I know in Japan has had no contact with, or not suffered
themselves directly these issues. Any public conversation about them is good
and necessary.

~~~
mikekchar
I never meant to imply that hikikomori was not an important issue. However,
the questions was, why do articles on hikikomori show up on HN so frequently.
HN is a forum about high tech, and startups, mostly centred around Silicon
Valley. How does hikikomori relate? Why are we discussing the problems of
Japan -- unrelated to high tech, unrelated to startups, unrelated to Silicon
Valley -- on HN? Sure, you can imagine that it would show up once or twice,
but the frequency it shows up is beyond what you would expect.

Why do _you_ think people on HN want to talk about this phenomenon?

~~~
Ultramanoid
There is a lot of talk about mental issues in HN. Sometimes from a societal
point of view, sometimes medical, etc. So it's part of that interest for
people here, I suppose. There's a lot of talk about health, and nutrition too.
HN is definitely not what I thought it was either.

Personally, I know a significant number of people ( not just in Japan ) who
work from home, glued to a keyboard.

I do too on occasion -- as I assume is the case for many people on HN. But I
must travel more than I like for work as well.

At any rate, these people always looking at a screen, they don't think of
themselves as hikikomori. And mostly aren't, in fact they may have an uncle,
or a son, or a niece, or next door neighbour, who really is, and makes life
very, very difficult for people related to them, or living with them. So, not
hikikomori, yet these work-from-home types can have close to zero interaction
with the outside world other than a couple of holiday trips per year, and the
occasional shopping weekend with wife / husband / partner.

I think some of them wake up one day and think they're going to end up like
their neighbour. Others want to know how to get their son out of the room.

The thing is, hardly anyone talks in person to anyone else about it in so-
called real life.

Maybe many in our line of work can be in situations that relate to the
problem. Isolation in the age of hyperconnectivity is ironically very real.

~~~
mikekchar
I have a good friend who is hikikomori. I actually met him on the internet
before I moved to Japan. I've never met him in person, despite trying many
times to set it up. Hikikomori, in my experience, is _very_ different than the
isolation of working from home (something I also experience). It's obviously
not a single medical condition. It's a result of dealing with some mental
illness, but rather than living on the street or being institutionalised, you
live at home because your family cares for you. It is uncommon in most places
in the world because you simply _can 't_ live in your bedroom without leaving.
In Japan it is possible. That's why it exists only in Japan and a few similar
cultures.

I'm all for talking about the feeling of isolation and the frustration of
working a long time without much social contact (story of my current life).
However, I would not conflate that with hikikomori which is a much more
serious social issue of how to deal with mental illness.

~~~
Ultramanoid
I am not conflating. I was answering why I think it may be of interest for HN
readers.

Also, there are many types of hikikomori. Some have no family support or live
with them.

I know one who lives in an internet cafe, alone, and has for years. The staff
told me she avoids everyone as if they were toxic poison. Only comes out at
night for bathroom trips / snacks and she will run back into the cubicle if
anyone's in the hall when she comes out. It's been three years now. In a
cubicle. Leaves the payments near the drink section in an envelope always at
the same time of night. Doesn't even use the cubicle computer, she works out
of her smartphone. ( Our company actually hired her for a while. ) Most
employees do not even know what she looks like, I certainly don't. She's
adamant that she wants to live like this.

The son of a friend has been in his room for the last ten years. Does nothing
all day. Tried to kill himself several times. Their life is an absolute
nightmare.

Etc. There's no one-size-fits-all, and in some cases I don't know if mental
illness has anything to do with it.

Edit : Our next door neighbour, as far as I know, has not been out of his one
room apartment in at least 8 years. He's old ( 80s ? ) and a couple of
volunteers check on him once a week and bring him food, otherwise he'd be dead
already. We tried to talk to him once and were told not to do so as he could
turn violent, "he's a hikikomori"... It took a while to find volunteers to
help him out that he would not attack, apparently. I mean, the list is awfully
long. I could go on and on.

------
_bxg1
> Feelings of failure and shame are common among hikikomori of all ages.

It sounds to me like Japan's hyper-competitive business culture has chewed
these people up and spit them back out (even though for some this happened
while still in school), and now an entire population segment has paralyzing
depression. Maybe that aspect of the country's culture will be forced to
change for the sake of the economy.

