

Women in Tech: I can learn more. And so can you - bfe
http://blog.fogus.me/2013/10/02/women-in-tech/

======
geebee
This was a short post, but it was a good reading list.

I'm always in a strange spot with these posts, because I don't so much
disagree as take a completely different angle. Any discussion of the relative
scarcity of women in science needs to consider the risks of a career in
science.

I wish Phil Greenspun's infamous "women in science" article were a little less
caustic, because it really does provide a pretty remarkable explanation about
why women in particular, but people in general, might want to avoid science as
a career.

[http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-
science](http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science)

A less provocative but very data-driven study by the RAND institute found that
the American aversion to science careers (at the PhD level) is rational and
market driven.

[http://www.rand.org/pubs/issue_papers/IP241.html](http://www.rand.org/pubs/issue_papers/IP241.html)

The whole thing is very complicated. A career as a research scientist is very
different from trying to start a tech company, so we're talking about a very
wide range of issues.

I also want to make it clear that "science is a terrible career" doesn't mean
we shouldn't worry about the scarcity of women. It's one thing to claim sour
grapes for yourself, it's another thing entirely to tell someone else not to
worry because the grapes are sour.

However, I do think the general context is meaningful - that any discussion of
women in science need to include the possibility that science is a poor career
choice compared to other options available to highly intelligent, academically
motivated, hard working people, men and women.

~~~
jacalata
I actually think that if your focus is PhD/academic research positions, you're
not so much taking a different angle as having a different conversation. The
attractiveness of a post-doc in biology is barely relevant at all to the
attraction of a dev job at Google or a Silicon Valley startup, for instance.
And I might be biased because I am a professional developer, but that's the
context I've always thought of for these conversations.

~~~
bfe
That lack of room for bias is a reasonable intuition, but at least one
straightforward experiment contradicts it:

"In a randomized double-blind study (n = 127), science faculty from research-
intensive universities rated the application materials of a student — who was
randomly assigned either a male or female name — for a laboratory manager
position. Faculty participants rated the male applicant as significantly more
competent and hireable than the (identical) female applicant. These
participants also selected a higher starting salary and offered more career
mentoring to the male applicant."

[http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/09/14/1211286109](http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/09/14/1211286109)

Graphs summarizing the results are here:

[http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/09/19/...](http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/09/19/scientists-
your-gender-bias-is-showing)

~~~
jacalata
I'm sorry? I don't know if you meant to reply to my comment. When I said 'I
might be biased', I meant 'towards talking about professional programmers over
academics'.

------
bitops
Another post that will get cut down within the hour. Hopefully a post of this
quality from from fogus disappearing will help convince some that this really
is an issue.

I'm not holding my breath though. On the topic of women, Hacker News is a
depressingly conventional community.

[EDIT: true to expectations, this comment got downvoted. Better find another
community that actually values a frank discussion about real problems in our
society.]

~~~
untog
I don't know, this title makes it sound like it's telling women what to do, so
it should get a few HN upvotes on that basis alone.

~~~
fogus
That title paraphrasing is... unfortunate.

~~~
bitops
I initially thought so too but then I realized that this person is actually
being sarcastic.

------
malandrew
Great post from Fogus, but the post he responded to was just wow. That author
has simply painted herself as a liability. I don't care how good a developer
is, male or female, if they have an attitude like that they are not someone I
would ever hire. I also can't imagine how someone so full of rage would be
able to control themselves to prevent that attitude from leaking out into
their general day-to-day behavior.

------
static_typed
People who want to work in tech, being helped and being able to work in tech,
regardless of gender, religion, social demographic, accent, body size, colour,
shoe size? Fantastic. I am all for that.

From experience, the last thing most women in tech actually need or want is
feminist dogma.

~~~
alter_ego
This. I worked hard for my place in the team. My boss and I are the two women
in our small close-knit team, and we recently had trouble with another women
who joined and started causing a lot of 'equality' noise and troubles. She did
all this despite it being the most meritocratic place I have worked.

------
mumbi
I really can't stand feminism. I'm all for women learning to program, though.
In fact, I put more support in women learning than men. We do need more women
programming. Feminism though, no.

~~~
untog
What, exactly, do you think feminism is?

~~~
mumbi
Probably the same thing as you(equality). But what it is or is supposed to be
isn't my issue. My issue is the outcome.

~~~
bitops
And that outcome is?

~~~
mumbi
Degradation of society as a whole.

~~~
bitops
That's a very strong statement. Without a more detailed and eloquent defense,
I'll have a hard time taking you seriously.

