

You are no longer free to move around the country - kenjackson
http://reason.com/blog/2010/12/01/you-are-no-longer-free-to-move

======
stretchwithme
The Fourth Amendment to the Constitution explicitly protects the people from
unreasonable searches.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and
effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated and
no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or
affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the
persons or things to be seized."

One might say that you submit to this as part of the deal to get on the plane.
But if that were true, it would be between you and the airline, not the
government. That means it really should be the airlines that decide how
intrusive searches should be. And you would be free to choose an airline whose
policies you agree with. And the airline would be free to reject you as a
passenger.

The government has hijacked the relationship between you and the people you've
hired to get you from point A to point B. Just because of previous lapses in
their intelligence efforts enabled some people to do something terrible
doesn't mean you lose your rights.

~~~
gst
The Fourth Amendment only protects you if you aren't inside the "constitution
free zone". And as it happens, about two thirds of the US population live
within this zone.

See: [http://www.aclu.org/national-security_technology-and-
liberty...](http://www.aclu.org/national-security_technology-and-liberty/are-
you-living-constitution-free-zone) and
<http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/10/24/197215>

~~~
smackfu
Not particularly relevant, since that's not the justification they are using
for the TSA.

------
garply
Let's say that we had machine vision software good enough to not need a human
to look at the scanner images unless it discovered undesirable objects on the
person (I don't think that's so far fetched technologically). What percent of
people who currently oppose these machines would do so if they were completely
automated?

Personally, I still would, as I am more concerned about the government
scanning me and finding other things that it finds undesirable. I have no
intention of blowing stuff up, but if these things become widespread, I think
they might well be used to search for things other than weapons. Constantly
being searched for illegal objects when I go out in public would disturb me.
That's why I don't like these things. But I bet most of the people are just
opposed because of the naked pictures.

~~~
grinich
I don't have a problem with the scanners. I have a problem with:

    
    
        • Inconclusive reporting about the health effects.
        • Conflict of interest with Deepak Chopra.
        • Inconsistent attitude and treatment by TSA officials
        • Firm statements that the machines do not store images,
          and then stories about images being saved.
        • Policies such as banning TSA employees from wearing
          radiation measurement badges. 
        • Threats of $10k "civil lawsuit"
        • Pat-downs for children. 
        • etc, etc.
    

The scanners are not the problem. The problem is the TSA.

------
joshes
I'm quickly becoming disturbed with what is happening in the US.

I was reading the last few chapters of _1984_ last night, for fun, and with
what has been happening in the past few months, particularly with the TSA, I
am starting to feel as though we are headed toward an Orwellian future. I
really do not want to be unnecessarily inciting, but these incremental changes
that are occurring are becoming more unsettling as time passes.

~~~
mcantelon
Absolutely. The state isn't expending all this energy (the development of the
DHS, warrantless wiretapping infrastructure, etc.) for no purpose. The purpose
is likely counter-insurgency, not terrorism.

------
dholowiski
I've said it before- take a train, bus, or don't visit (or live in) the USA.
Well, looks like the last option will soon be the only one. I'll say it again-
Americans, fix your government. The rest of the world is laughing at you. (and
again, yes it's a nervous laugh. You scare us a bit too).

~~~
alexgartrell
Never underestimate American zeal for non-public transportation.

edit: some biographical information might clarify this comment. I'm a 21 year
old male from the midwest and budding car enthusiast. Additionally, I have a
thing from making tongue-in-cheek comments that are absolutely non-obvious to
everyone besides myself :)

~~~
wyclif
I'm sorry, but even though I'm an American (or USAian, if you prefer) and
support public transportation, wish it was better and more widespread, &c.--
it's simply shortsighted and simplistic to ascribe it to zeal for private
ownership of automobiles. Although enjoyment of the private auto is a
distinctly American and capitalist thing, the fact is that it's drastically
less expensive and challenging to leverage public transportation in Europe,
which is a much smaller land mass.

~~~
alexgartrell
That statement was _very_ tongue in cheek. I'm from Ohio originally and love
driving. I brought a car with me to college, and will be living in Northern
California with a car (I actually plan to buy a new one soon). Having lived
with a "convenient public transit system" in NYC for 3 months, I can safely
say I far prefer driving, if only for the purely selfish and capitalistic
reasons :)

You're hitting on what I was getting at though, which is that it's just not
that big of a deal to the average American, because we drive. Next time I will
leave being clever to the professionals :P

~~~
cema
Be as clever as you wish and do not worry about downvotes.

------
artmageddon
I honestly don't think I could live in this country if this sort of thing
became the norm for bus and rail travel. I take the train every day to work,
each way and back, and given the crowding and delays, it would be so
infeasible to have this sort of security theatre when no such threat to these
transit systems exist.

~~~
durin42
I heard the same thing said about the atrocious security theatre at airports,
especially the really busy ones like O'Hare. It was going to be temporary, I
heard, because there was no practical way it could be permanent. It's been 9
years. Feels pretty permanent to me, as much as I wish that it didn't. I'm
afraid at this point the question is whether we're too late with our outrage
(or perhaps if the present outrage is sufficient, which it probably won't be.)

------
waterlesscloud
If you think the naked picture machines are going to be limited to airports,
you're just not paying attention.

------
sudonim
I've already been opting out of flying. If these checkpoints were everywhere,
i'd opt out of citizenship.

~~~
billmcneale
> If these checkpoints were everywhere, i'd opt out of citizenship.

Bullshit.

~~~
prawn
That might be abrasive, but it's realistic. These changes (as always) will
come gradually so that each increment is not quite so bad as to spark riots,
but when viewed as a batch change over 30-50 years will be something amazing.
Scanners will be the norm for all public transport, possibly private transport
and potentially many public spaces over the coming decades.

~~~
smackfu
The idea that this will be limited to the US is rather charmingly naive too.

~~~
prawn
For sure. I think it will feature in the US, then Europe, maybe Northern
Africa?

Australia would love to follow the lead of the US but not sure if we'd be able
to justify the cost too early.

------
jacquesm
In the Netherlands your only option to move around 'untracked' is to use a
bike or to walk, any other mode of transportation is monitored. And better
leave your cell phone at home because telcos are required by law to keep
location information for quite a long period.

~~~
viraptor
What do you mean by untracked? You can buy a single ticket to any place
without showing your ID. I don't think I even needed one for an Amsterdam ->
Brussels train.

~~~
jacquesm
Since a few months we have the "OV Chipcard" which requires regular users of
public transport to check in / out when entering / leaving the public
transport system.

On a large number of stations the tickets are only sold using electronic
vending machines that do not accept cash.

~~~
MichaelSalib
In the US, one can purchase pre-paid credit cards with cash. Is that option
easily available to people in the Netherlands?

------
kingnothing
This is not hacker news. Leave it on reddit.

~~~
stretchwithme
When only the state is free to do what it wants, only the state will hack.

~~~
iwr
Since when has legality had to matter for hackers when hacking?

~~~
stretchwithme
i speak of freedom, not legality. If the gulag awaits you if you're caught,
that's a completely different story than it would be if you hack in a society
governed by rule of law. But don't take my word for it. Ask the North Korean
hackers.

