

Giving Ruby a bad name: Women as Job Perks, Again - groundCode
http://programmersbeingdicks.tumblr.com/post/55595533099/women-as-job-perks-again

======
pessimizer
Maybe they were trying to appeal to me. Knowing that I'd be working with women
and people from different cultures holds great appeal to someone who is sick
of and uncomfortable in 100% bro environments. I lean towards thinking that
was actually their intention, due to the mention of "frontend/ _backend_ "
making sure that we know that the women they have are not all designers.

Of course, it's as inappropriate to advertise explicitly as "we have three
blacks, and two hispanics!" would be. How do you advertise and get credit for
creating a diverse workplace? Maybe a collaborative blog w/pictures above
every blogpost? A tiny company can't get away with sponsoring "cultural"
events, like the large ones do.

~~~
mratzloff
Oh please. You signal that by saying "we have a fun and diverse team", not
"Which do you want, beer at your desk or your own team of European women?"

~~~
falcolas
The phrase "we have a fun and diverse team" contains so much recruiting
hyperbole as to not have an actual meaning.

~~~
PebblesRox
So add more details. If you actually have a fun and diverse team, you should
have some stories, right? So tell them!

"We love to hear S's stories about growing up in France." "W has the yummiest
recipes to share." "One time we were struggling with this issue and J had this
insight that we never would have thought of because we were so used to looking
at it from such-and-such perspective." "At lunch last week, D taught us this
great game she used to play as a kid; we've been having so much fun with it
since then and P told us it reminded him of this other game so now they're
working on remix together and they won't tell us anything about it until it's
done."

I was in an interview yesterday and my interviewers were telling me about how
they bring their kids in to the office sometimes, and how they have tomato
plants growing on the roof and how they take Good Friday off because "I grew
up Roman Catholic, so it's a holy day for me. I need it to bake cookies!"
Those kinds of things don't appeal to everyone of course, but they're right up
my alley. They made me even more interested in the job than before.

~~~
falcolas
This seems to fall victim to the same "sin" as the original post - calling out
the women in a way which could be easily misconstrued as a Playboy centerfold
biography.

~~~
PebblesRox
I didn't mean to give the impression that all the stories would be about
women. I think it would work best if you had several stories about a variety
of people; the goal is to illustrate the diversity you have instead of going
with the banal "we value diversity" claim with nothing to back it up. Of
course having a team that actually is fun and diverse is a prerequisite to
this strategy.

------
VMG
> Notice which of those things is not like the others? That’s right, number
> eight appears to be placing female employees on roughly the same level a jar
> of chocolate eclairs.

Well - no.

You could interpret it as signaling that it is a fun and diverse work place.
But that wouldn't make for good Two Minutes Hate.

~~~
roflc0ptic
Interpreting this to mean that it's a "fun and diverse work place" is pretty
tortured exegesis.

The reason this is a problem is that it's alienating to women to describe them
as job perks. Like, look. Empathize a little. What if you're a straight lady
dev looking for a job? Why would "female" devs be a job perk? Many women take
being massive issue with being described as "female." Further, describing them
by nationality has an element of exoticizing them. More fundamentally though,
the line signals that this environment is a male environment. Its boys club
signaling, even if you don't want it to be. Even if it doesn't bother you
personally.

~~~
VMG
_What if you 're a straight lady dev looking for a job?_

Are you suggesting that women don't like with other women?

Most tech shops have much less men then women, which is boring. This ad wanted
to highlight that this place has more diversity.

As with all language, the wording is a little ambiguous. The article (and many
commenters) choose to interpret the line in the worst possible way and think
the company is a misogynist hellhole and probably think that the four women
working there are kept on leashes.

~~~
PebblesRox
I doubt that Richard Green had any malicious intentions in his comments; it
was probably an innocent mistake. If you look at the literal meaning of what
he wrote, you can see that he probably wanted to highlight the diversity. But
I don't think you can deny that the wording he chose has unfortunate
connotations and I think it's worth pointing that out because those
connotations, while subtle and subjective, are real and they can be harmful. I
think at the very least we can agree that they have harmed the image of evvnt,
which is the opposite of what he intended.

No one is suggesting that women don't like to work together. It's that we
don't want to work in a place where the men subconsciously think of us as a
temptation, a reward, a decoration, or a commodity. That's the impression that
Green's post gives, even though I'm sure that's not what he intended. Does
that make sense? I can try to explain better if you have questions.

------
thauck
As always, it's how it's presented that matters.

I always ask for general demographic information when I interview with a
company. It isn't about being sexist (well maybe it is against men)... I just
don't want to work with a bunch of mid-20s white males. Not enough diversity
of thought.

Disclosure: I'm a mid-20s white male.

~~~
rubiquity
I love laughing at self righteous people like you. You see the world as though
people of different sexes and skin colors all think differently but at the
same time think all white males think exactly the same without even realizing
how ridiculous that is. What, do all white males in their mid 20s grow up in
expensive suburbs? Get over yourself already. You're like that white guy that
goes to Bubble Tea places and acts like he's into "ethnic" food.

~~~
mratzloff
This is an unnecessary personal attack.

Like it or not, women and minorities often have different life experiences
than white men. There is a range of experiences within each group, and there
is overlap, and economics play a big role, but it's a leap to assume that
someone looking for a diverse workplace is self righteous or clueless.

~~~
rubiquity
I wasn't replying to the OP. The person I replied to had to put a Disclaimer
in their post to inform everyone that he is a white male in his mid 20s. If
you don't see the ridiculousness in that then I can't help you.

------
llamataboot
Aanand Prasad's excellent response to Richard Green's apology:
[http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-
lrug.org/2013-July/0091...](http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-
lrug.org/2013-July/009141.html)

------
wheaties
No, it's giving tech a bad name. Maybe as part of the whole "mentoring" thing
angles and VCs give a start up, making sure the CEO doesn't post dumb sh*t
like this in the first place (12+ experience need not apply) would go a long
ways to helping the company not become a laughing stock. I mean, really, who
is going to work at these companies?

~~~
seivan
Richard Green isn't tech. He's MBA - we already know what their schtick is.

------
llamataboot
The apology and aggressively calling out people criticizing them in
blog/asrticle comments is particularly egregious as well - from both a "doing
the right thing" perspective and from "stop digging the hole deeper"
perspective.

Apology here: [http://evvnt.com/2013/07/i-love-ruby-an-equal-opportunity-
em...](http://evvnt.com/2013/07/i-love-ruby-an-equal-opportunity-employer/)

~~~
sp332
That actually looks like a good apology. He starts by taking personal
responsibility, clarifies the actual culture of the company, and throws in a
legal disclaimer at the end.

~~~
mratzloff
It's a terrible apology. See this response for an excellent explanation of
why:

[http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-
lrug.org/2013-July/0091...](http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-
lrug.org/2013-July/009141.html)

~~~
sp332
I don't like it. The questions seem more like rhetorical accusations instead
of a conversation. I really don't like point 4 since the guy takes personal
responsibility at the beginning of the letter (which this reply says he
doesn't). And I think the invitation to talk follows the advice in this post
to the letter: [http://www.maryrobinettekowal.com/journal/on-sexual-
harassme...](http://www.maryrobinettekowal.com/journal/on-sexual-harassment-
at-conventions-elise-matheson-speaks-out/) That is, making it as easy as
possible to report harmful behavior.

And point 3 is just pointing out that he's getting defensive. Well of course
he's defensive, you're attacking him!

Edit: OK I had to read the link from point 2 twice but I think I understand it
now. However I don't see how it's relevant since it says "I didn't intend for
you to feel that way, so if you do feel that way, don't blame me! My intent
magically inoculates me from responsibility for what I actually said and how
it was received!" But the apology specifically says "I got it wrong" and never
claims that people shouldn't be offended. The whole reply is just wrong.

------
seivan
Sometimes I wonder if all this shit directed towards Rubyists is actually
caused by asshole MBAs. Richard Green isn't a developer.

Business Development Global Partnership Sales & Marketing Strategist Business
Analyst European Sales

Besides, his entire fuck post smells of asshole MBA.

------
mataug
This has got nothing to do with ruby other than the fact that they are looking
for ruby developers on its mailing list . The title seems link baity IMHO.

But I am against adding women as a job perk.

~~~
PebblesRox
Yeah, if you read the whole thing he seems a little frustrated that his
efforts to get the attention of ruby developers haven't been working. That's
my impression at least: [http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-
lrug.org/2013-July/0090...](http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-
lrug.org/2013-July/009095.html)

------
lucisferre
Their [evvnt's] responses are even more confusing than the original post
([http://www.newstatesman.com/economics/2013/07/women-
offered-...](http://www.newstatesman.com/economics/2013/07/women-offered-
perks-job-ad#comment-964234122)). It almost seems like there is some sort of
english language issue here. I can't even be sure what they were trying to
accomplish. Whatever it was they got it so very wrong.

Another reply: [http://www.newstatesman.com/economics/2013/07/women-
offered-...](http://www.newstatesman.com/economics/2013/07/women-offered-
perks-job-ad#comment-964196339)

Edit: After reading their confounding responses it almost seems as if they
were _literally asking_ people what "perks" where most important to them. Kind
of the way social media marketers suggest you word Facebook posts as questions
to prompt engagement. I honestly can't imagine how someone can be this naive.

Their ongoing response to criticism on Twitter is mindblowing. I really am at
a loss to understand how anyone can be this foolish.

[https://twitter.com/evvnt/status/357120127113773056](https://twitter.com/evvnt/status/357120127113773056)

Also this is the original article:
[http://www.newstatesman.com/economics/2013/07/women-
offered-...](http://www.newstatesman.com/economics/2013/07/women-offered-
perks-job-ad)

~~~
PebblesRox
Here's the full text of the original post:
[http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-
lrug.org/2013-July/0090...](http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-
lrug.org/2013-July/009095.html)

You're right about it being a literal question; it looks like he was hoping
people would respond with the ones that appealed to them the most (i.e. "I'd
be most interested in 1, 3, and 10").

"Ruby developers have quality banter and like to squish themselves in to tiny
pubs, drink lots of beer and chat projects and code. More of point 3 required.

So in the art of snaring a ruby developer in the next 6 weeks, what temps
these rare creatures out of their natural habit to venture to pastures new...

Let me know which of the following would tempt you from you desk...

[...]

I'm looking for your best number or a combination of up to 3..."

So I guess it's all hypothetical; it seems like he was fishing around to
figure out what would attract attention or interest.

------
revelation
I don't get it. Of course having women coworkers is a positive signal in a
field dominated by males, and can certainly factor into a job decision.

~~~
sp332
You need to think of this from the point of view of the women. How would you
feel if someone put you up as a perk, based only on your gender? I would feel
like meat.

Edit: I'm not saying this was intended. Maybe they were actually trying to
appeal to women (or men) who didn't want to work in a "bro environment", as
pessimizer put it. Lots of explanations but they need an actual apology for
messing up so bad.

~~~
kawsper
One job description contained this

> Young and dedicated colleagues

Now I am being put up as a perk because I am 24 only because of my age? And is
that discrimination?

~~~
sp332
It's probably agist. At least adding "dedicated" is better than just saying
"young." But what was the context? Was that just a description of the work
environment, or was it in a list of perks?

~~~
kawsper
> Was that just a description of the work environment, or was it in a list of
> perks?

Oh right, I see the difference now. It was of course a description of the work
environment, and not a list of perks.

------
metaphorm
I think this is a case of unfortunate wording that leaves the wrong
impression. My take on that "perk" is that the meaning that was intended is
something like: "we have a gender diverse work place and have hired 4 awesome
woman engineers! this is a great perk because these women kick ass and its a
privilege to work with them."

but of course, those words weren't used. they probably should have been rather
than the words that did appear.

~~~
llamataboot
Based on the non-apology (where this could have been clarified) and the
comments on news articles and elsewhere, I really don't think this is the
case, or it could have been clarified and apologized for.

Also, people that put women programmers in lists of "tempting perks" and then
when called out on misogyny say, "but dudes, I have a wife and daughter!"
doesn't exactly give me much room to really believe that you are committed
enough to addressing the problem of sexism in tech enough that you would write
"we have a gender-diverse and multinational workplace!" in the same place
where you are talking about beer-at-your-desk

~~~
sp332
He's a non-technical cofounder. He probably isn't steeped in the troubles of
gender in tech.

------
driverdan
This seems like a misunderstanding to me. People saying that it's comparing
women to eclairs need to read the rest of the list. If that's the case they're
also comparing "commission from online sales" to eclairs and "30 days paid
holiday" to a coffee machine.

There are serious gender inequality issues in our industry that need to be
addressed. This isn't it.

~~~
nness
Women listed as perks of a job, almost as "employment benefits," is thoroughly
degrading. This is definitely the kind of issue that needs to be addressed in
the community, and it not suitable to disregard smaller occurrences of sexism
because we can pointer to more serious cases that we "have to deal with
first." All instances of sexism are issues and deserve our the same contempt.

~~~
sp332
_All instances of sexism are issues and deserve our the same contempt._

This is a problem I'm having with some of the responses. Accidentally
offensive things are not as bad as people intentionally degrading women. There
_are_ shades of gray and I think something as small as this should only
require an apology to be done with it.

------
dsr_
For everyone trying to gloss this as a flawed attempt to establish a diverse
workplace, here's how to do it:

1\. Take it out of the list that is captioned "Let me know which of the
following would tempt you from you desk…"

2\. Instead, try something like "We are committed to a diverse workplace
sharing in the strengths of many points of view."

~~~
shawabawa3
> "We are committed to a diverse workplace sharing in the strengths of many
> points of view."

Ugh... do we really have to talk like politicians to avoid offending people?

Maybe something more like "We don't discriminate against women - 4 of our
developers are female"

I don't see why it should necessarily be taken out of "perks". I imagine a lot
of female developers in particular would be tempted to move jobs to somewhere
with more women.

~~~
dsr_
"We don't discriminate against blacks - 4 of our developers are black"

If that doesn't make you cringe, I'm not sure how else to get it across to
you.

~~~
shawabawa3
"We are committed to a diverse workplace sharing in the strengths of many
points of view."

And that doesn't make you cringe?

Admittedly mine wasn't great but there has to be some middle ground

------
jabbernotty
The way I understand it, he was trying to state (in a clumsy way) what kind of
team they have. Indicating that it's technical staff does not consist only of
men.

~~~
aredington
When you include the women as a perk in an effort to tempt engineering talent,
it's easy to interpret the mindset of the author of using women as objects.
Even if the author ISN'T authoring the list that way, they are not being
cognizant of the pervasive problem of viewing women as objects and acting to
prevent it.

Everything else on the list is proffered as transactional compensations of
talented engineers renting their labor to the CEO. Highlighting the youth of
these engineers while including them on a list of perks implies specific
things about how they are valued.

If he had separately described the work environment, and had included these
engineers in that description, and had not focused SOLELY on the young female
engineers, then this wouldn't be a story.

~~~
jabbernotty
I could never have written the ad in such a thoughtless manner myself (neither
could I have written your own well-reasoned post, for that matter).

But I do think it is just clumsyness - I don't think he thinks of women as
objects, he is probably just happy to have them around for what they add as a
person.

Or am I being naive?

~~~
aredington
Objectifying women is rarely an act that people embrace with a conscious
perspective or decision. It's a way of behaving that most people engage in
because the culture they occupy and learned in showed it as an acceptable
behavior. They continue the behavior which reinforces their privileged
position in society (again, often not consciously).

The intent and perspective of the author do not make the problem go away any
more than a hunter realizing he accidentally shot someone in the wilderness
that he mistook for a deer makes the victim's bullet wound close.

Part of the concern is that the youth and gender are highlighted prominently
for these engineers, and ONLY the young woman engineers are listed as perks. I
absolutely value the contribution women engineers bring to my work
environments, they are valuable additions to our team, but some of them aren't
young.

Again, IF the engineering team was described separately, OR if other engineers
were included as 'perks', e.g. "We have a senior Rails contributor on staff
whom you can learn with", OR if the perk wasn't specifically calling out their
youth and gender (we have a multinational team of many races and genders),
then this would be a non-story.

------
aanand
I responded on the mailing list.

[http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-
lrug.org/2013-July/0091...](http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-
lrug.org/2013-July/009141.html)

------
Argorak
The linked post does not even suggest that Ruby name or the Ruby community is
in any way the issue here. It just happened on a Ruby mailing list. Period.

So why is this posted under this title?

------
hluska
I'm not a big fan of this title - while this is an ugly, immature job posting,
I certainly hope it doesn't reflect at all on the Ruby community.

~~~
seivan
I hope so as well given it wasn't made by a developer.

~~~
jamesbritt
_I hope so as well given it wasn 't made by a developer._

But so what if it was? Even in that case it would reflect poorly on _that_
developer. Not on everyone who coincidentally also uses Ruby.

------
_pmf_
Ah, this is really cute. Lamenting lack of acknowledgement of women in tech,
but (crazy internet lady) DAMNED IF ANYBODY DARES TO MAKE IT SOUND LIKE
WORKING WITH WOMEN IS A DESIRABLE SITUATION!

Above all, these "perks" sound a bit like they are addressed more at
attracting potential female employees.

~~~
llamataboot
Why don't you do a little test. Find about 10-20 women working developers.
Show them this job ad. Tell me the percentage that feel that the ad is
welcoming.

------
SomeRandomUser
Is there some kind of elaborate joke going on in here? Or are you people
incapable of reading a simple text?

You don't advertise a diverse environment with "4X female french, italian and
spanish junior". It can be stupidity or a lack of understanding of the English
language (if you're feeling like justifying it) or just plain gender
discrimination and a really sexist statement to make.

Anyway, not much more can be expected from a job posting that seems targeted
to 12 year olds.

------
jhollida24
Overreact much?

The tone of the post is informal and is intended to be humorous. If there is a
good balance of male/female coders there, there's a good chance one of the
women saw it and thought it was funny. One of them might have even written it.

For many programmers, I'm sure it is a perk to be around more women. They work
in a completely male dominated field. The changes of meeting a potential
partner who shares your interests at work is low.

------
nness
I'm sure their existing female developers enjoy being objectified like that,
no doubt a horrid place to work...

------
dragonwriter
I'm not sure why a startup CEO making a sexist job post looking for Ruby devs
in a Ruby forum should give _Ruby_ a bad name, more than, say, (in decreasing
order of relevance), the particular CEO, the company, tech startup CEOs, and
tech startup culture more generally.

------
Shank
Don't CEOs ever run things by PR? This sounds like a rookie mistake of
accidentally forgetting to cc the person in charge of making sure the company
doesn't blow itself up in the press.

------
tapatio
Maybe they are trying to appeal to the 20 something virgin engineers that live
in Man Jose and have never had a sexy girlfriend? Just a thought.

------
tapatio
So when is someone going to start the site progammersbeingcunts.tumblr.com?

------
mrt0mat0
i think articles like this are the actual problem. Stop playing the woman
card, get a job and shut your mouth. If you don't think you will be treated
well because you're a woman, don't work there. I honestly am shocked that
women care. This job is saying that there are already women here, which means
you have a high chance of getting hired. The more women there, the less sexual
harassment in the work place. I'm a white male, so I don't have any cards to
play which is good because the game is stupid and i would have folded a long
time ago anyway.

------
tapatio
Who wouldn't enjoy working alongside a sexy French or Italian girl (or guy, no
homo). Considering most engineers are men it makes sense to appeal to them in
this fashion. Sex sells, duh.

------
hamf
I'm sure the females in question had this ran by them and thought it would be
a fun joke to play along with

This is a stupid story

~~~
lucisferre
Read further, there aren't actually any females french or otherwise, in
question. This whole thing is insanity piled on insanity.

------
beachstartup
> Expresso

people still do this?

------
adriawins
Seriously, 'programmers being dicks' gets upvoted to front page?

Someone might as well start 'programmers being cunts' with the first post
discussing 'women and programming - one small step for productivity, one giant
leap for drama and bullshit'

~~~
seivan
He's not a programmer, he's what I would probably describe as; an MBA.

Dev community does has it share of issues, we don't need to fuel it with more
crap from people like him.

------
znowi
A fine ad. I don't see a crime here. Except the sensational title maybe...

 _Oh noooes! Ruby sucks! How dare they!!! Sexist community!_

------
tudorconstantin
I think that women that get upset on this AD are those whose companies were
not proud of having them in the team - they are jealous. The type of women who
are wearing generous decolletages, but they feel insulted when someone admires
their boobs. The type of women who like their eyes to be complimented, but
again, they feel insulted when a man compliments their ass.

I think we, as men, try too much to understand them, and they try too much to
keep themselves mysterious.

