
Students Are Better Off Without a Laptop in the Classroom - thearn4
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/students-are-better-off-without-a-laptop-in-the-classroom/
======
zeta0134
Oh, okay, I thought the study was going to be on the benefits of attempting to
use the laptop itself for classroom purposes, not for social media
distractions. This would be more accurately titled, "Students Are Better Off
Without Distractions in the Classroom." Though I suppose, it wouldn't make a
very catchy headline.

I found my laptop to be very beneficial in my classroom learning during
college, but only when I made it so. My secret was to avoid even connecting to
the internet. I opened up a word processor, focused my eyes on the professor's
slides or visual aids, and typed everything I saw, adding notes and
annotations based on the professor's lecture.

This had the opposite effect of what this article describes: my focusing my
distracted efforts on formatting the article and making my notes more
coherent, I kept myself focused, and could much more easily engage with the
class. Something about the menial task of taking the notes (which I found I
rarely needed to review) prevented me from losing focus and wandering off to
perform some unrelated activity.

I realize my experience is anecdotal, but then again, isn't everyone's? I
think each student should evaluate their own style of learning, and decide how
to best use the tools available to them. If the laptop is a distraction?
Remove it! Goodness though, you're paying several hundred (/thousand) dollars
per credit hour, best try to do everything you can to make that investment pay
off.

~~~
DINKDINK
>I opened up a word processor, focused my eyes on the professor's slides or
visual aids, and typed everything I saw

There are studies that show that verbatim computer note taking is actually
inferior to remembering the lecture content:

A Learning Secret: Don’t Take Notes with a Laptop

[https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-learning-
secret...](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-learning-secret-don-t-
take-notes-with-a-laptop/)

~~~
ericcumbee
Maybe they aren't as effective as hand written notes. but in my case Neatly
typed, well organized notes using OneNote 2003 were more effective than
hastily hand written mostly illegible notes.

~~~
nambit
The reason hand written notes are more effective is that it helps towards
better learning just by writing the thing down and slowing it to a pace where
your mind can make memories. Even if afterwards the notes are completely
illegible, I would argue it's more effective than typed notes.

~~~
preben
Slowing down to a pace comfortable for you means, at least in my classes, that
you'll miss the next thing in the presentation. Notes are not for immediate
learning, they're for assisting in learning later on. As an physics
engineering student, I take notes with a combination of LaTeX and OneNote on
my Surface 3.

Additional benefits by using a laptop to take notes is that they are
searchable, archived and accessible for however long you like, and sharable
between classmates. Hand written notes can obviously be shared and archived as
well, but nowhere near as easily.

~~~
js8
> I take notes with a combination of LaTeX and OneNote on my Surface 3

I wonder how you do that - I can't imagine I would be able to make notes in
LaTeX in real-time. To me, paper is just faster than any computer solution.
Also sometimes you need to draw a diagram or arrow in the notes.

> Slowing down to a pace comfortable for you means, at least in my classes,
> that you'll miss the next thing in the presentation.

I was thinking about this recently. I teach (assembly programming) in our
company using slideshow. But most teachers at my university used blackboard
(for math). I am beginning to think that using blackboard is better, despite
more effort, because it also forces the teacher to slow down.

~~~
thedudemabry
One of my favorite electrical engineering professors gave incredibly well-
planned lectures via overhead transparencies. He was quick to adjust the pace
of an individual lecture to the audience, but also provided his presentations
as PDF downloads. His presentations were supplemental to the textbooks, but
served as amazing base notes. In his classes, I found myself writing prompts
for further review and stray observations, rather than attempting to summarize
as the lecture progressed.

Having worked on online learning applications since then, I still think that
his was the best system for transferring complex knowledge in a classroom
setting.

An example PDF that I found through a quick Google search:
[http://www.ittc.ku.edu/~jstiles/312/handouts/312_Introductio...](http://www.ittc.ku.edu/~jstiles/312/handouts/312_Introduction_present.pdf)

------
makecheck
If students aren’t engaged, they aren’t going to become star pupils once you
take away their distractions. Perhaps kids attend more lectures than before
_knowing_ that they can always listen in while futzing with other things (and
otherwise, they may skip some of the classes entirely).

The lecture _format_ is what needs changing. You need a _reason_ to go to
class, and there was nothing worse than a professor showing slides from the
pages of his own book (say) or droning through anything that could be Googled
and read in less time. If there isn’t some live demonstration, or lecture-only
material, regular quizzes or other hook, you can’t expect students to fully
engage.

~~~
tjr
Most interesting, engaging class I have ever had was Philip Greenspun's short
database class at MIT. All day for three days, a cycle of ~15 minute lecture,
~15 minute problem sets worked by each student on their own laptop, ~15
minutes of reviewing student solutions (and, if needed, presenting the
"correct" solution).

I imagine that many classes could be presented in a similar format. I also
imagine it would be a lot of work on the part of the educators to do this.

~~~
rz2k
That sounds like an excellent format. What were the hours?

I can imagine that taking a lot of planning and refinement over multiple
offerings to get the timing just right on the exercises.

~~~
tjr
It was scheduled for 10-5 three days in a row, with a break for lunch, and a
short break in the morning and afternoon. One of the days included a ~1-hour
guest lecture from Michael Stonebraker, which did not fit into the
lecture/problem set/review format. The last day fizzled out from the format a
bit early, concluding with some random discussions.

Web page for the course here:

[http://philip.greenspun.com/teaching/three-day-
rdbms/](http://philip.greenspun.com/teaching/three-day-rdbms/)

------
ourmandave
This reminds me of the running gag in some college movie where the first day
all the students show up.

The next cut some students come to class, put a recorder on their desk and
leave, then pick it up later.

Eventually there's a scene of the professor lecturing to a bunch of empty
desks with just recorders.

And the final scene there's the professor's tape player playing to the
student's recorders.

~~~
pmiller2
FYI, this gag appears exactly as described in _Real Genius_. I wonder if there
are any other movies that use it?

~~~
kfriede
Video link:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt4vXaoPzF8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt4vXaoPzF8)

------
stevemk14ebr
I think this is a highly personal topic. As a student myself i find a laptop
in class is very nice, i can type my notes faster, and organize them better.
Most of my professors lectures are scatter brained and i frequently have to go
back to previous section and annotate or insert new sections. With a computer
i just go back and type, with a pen and paper i have to scribble, or write in
the margins. Of course computers can be distractions, but that is the students
responsibility, let natural selection take its course and stop hindering my
ability to learn how i do best (I am a CS major so computers are >= paper to
me). If you cannot do your work with a computer, then don't bring one
yourself, dont ban them for everyone.

~~~
compuguy
Some of us also have terrible handwriting, so taking notes by hand is out of
the question. Though I will also surmise that they can also be a distraction.

~~~
izacus
Why is improving your handwriting out of the question?

~~~
deadhead
Its not an option for everyone. I had a classmate in undergrad who had a
medical condition where they could not take notes by hand. They even had a
doctor's note saying that they had to have a laptop in class.

~~~
scottLobster
Not physically able to use hands != perfectly able to use hands but was failed
by their elementary school system and now rationalizes that learning to write
legibly is somehow a waste of time ;)

Not to be too personal, 99% of college students (including myself back in the
day) are lazy rationalizers in some fashion. In my experience it's not until
Junior/Senior year that some majors start squeezing that out.

~~~
ghaff
On the other hand, I had some number of years of handwriting class in grade
school (Palmer script) and handwriting was consistently my lowest grade as I
recall. It's never been good in spite of considerable practice--and it's
slowly deteriorated to almost illegible today.

------
imgabe
I went to college just as laptops were starting to become ubiquitous, but I
never saw the point of them in class. I still think they're pretty useless for
math, engineering, and science classes where you need to draw symbols and
diagrams that you can't easily type. Even for topics where you _can_ write
prose notes, I always found it more helpful to be able to arrange them
spatially in a way that made sense rather than the limited order of a text
editor or word processor.

~~~
e12e
I think devices like the surface pro have shown that we have the technology
needed for more advanced io now - we just need proper CAD programs and
symbolic math packages that work well with pen/touch input - much along the
lines of original Sketchpad[s].

In the same vein, I think "notebooks" of the Jupyter style for R, mathlab or
Julia etc - could be a great addition to many classes - allowing interactive
exploration etc.

It's an odd time to think computers won't be transformative to learning (also
in the classroom) - because we just got useful hardware in affordable
packaging.

True, the past decades, computers could probably help better with writing
projects - but I know of few places that for example simply let students
cooperate on writing up projects with their own wikimedia instance - rather
than using crappy dtp/word processors.

On the other hand, I don't think I knew anyone that got top marks on essays in
high school who worked only by hand - it's a slow process to work through two-
three drafts of a multi-page essay by hand.

[s]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sketchpad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sketchpad)

~~~
panda88888
TBH Surface Pro, iPad Pro et al compared to paper is like NTSC vs 4K. The
resolution and precision on digital writing surfaces are abysmal compared to
paper. I tried taking notes on Surface Pro with OneNote and gave up because it
feels like writing with crayons.

------
njarboe
This is a summary of an article titled "Logged In and Zoned Out: How Laptop
Internet Use Relates to Classroom Learning" published in Psychological Science
in 2017; The DOI is 10.1177/0956797616677314 if you want to check out the
details.

Abstract: Laptop computers are widely prevalent in university classrooms.
Although laptops are a valuable tool, they offer access to a distracting
temptation: the Internet. In the study reported here, we assessed the
relationship between classroom performance and actual Internet usage for
academic and nonacademic purposes. Students who were enrolled in an
introductory psychology course logged into a proxy server that monitored their
online activity during class. Past research relied on self-report, but the
current methodology objectively measured time, frequency, and browsing history
of participants’ Internet usage. In addition, we assessed whether
intelligence, motivation, and interest in course material could account for
the relationship between Internet use and performance. Our results showed that
nonacademic Internet use was common among students who brought laptops to
class and was inversely related to class performance. This relationship was
upheld after we accounted for motivation, interest, and intelligence. Class-
related Internet use was not associated with a benefit to classroom
performance.

~~~
throwawayjava
_> ...Students who were enrolled in an introductory psychology course..._

Ugh.

Also, from the paper:

 _> Five hundred seven students enrolled in an introductory psychology class
in fall 2014... Each lecture lasted 1 hr and 50 min with a 10-min break in the
middle._

Alternative headline: "500 person intro courses with meat-space lecture
periods lasting TWO HOURS are stupid, and everything else is water under the
bridge"

edit2: Also from the paper:

 _> Participants who logged in for less than half of the sessions were
excluded from analysis_

Why?! You don't think that frequency of use could correlate _at all_ with type
of use?! It's like they're _willfully_ introducing unnecessary threats to
validity...

And it keeps going like that for the entire paper. I smell experiment design
hacking.

~~~
quantum_magpie
>And it keeps going like that for the entire paper. I smell experiment design
hacking.

This sort of thing is exactly what pops up in my mind as well. I think they
just looked at complete set of data, which might have shown that there is low-
to-moderate correlation (assuming most people only use laptops when there is a
part of course that is completely irrelevant/boring/already known); once they
dropped the most significant use-case, all was left is the butt-in-seat users.

Also, I don't know why they never produce figures of a scatter plot for the
data they are analyzing. A simple grade _vs_ laptop time (academic, non-
academic, total) figure would explain the results so much better than the raw
tables. Maybe I'm just used to other kind of articles though.

P.S. There is also a really funny correlation in table 3, showing negative
grade influence from playing games, where table 1 has 0 minutes spent for that
across the board.

------
shahbaby
"Thus, there seems to be little upside to laptop use in class, while there is
clearly a downside."

Thanks to bs articles like this that try to over generalize their results, I
was unsure if I "needed" a laptop when returning to school.

Got a Surface Book and here's what I've experienced over the last 2 semesters.
\- Going paperless, I'm more organized than ever. I just need to make sure I
bring my surface with me wherever I go and I'm good.

\- Record lectures, tutorials, office hours, etc. Although I still take notes
to keep myself focused, I can go back and review things with 100% accuracy
thanks to this.

\- Being at 2 places at once. ie: Make last minute changes before submitting
an assignment for class A or attend review lecture to prepare for next week's
quiz in class B? I can leave the surface in class B to record the lecture
while I finish up the assignment for class A.

If you can't control yourself from browsing the internet during a lecture then
the problem is not with your laptop...

~~~
exodust
That's a sensible and practical use of laptop that I wish I had back when I
was at Uni (nobody had a laptop in the 90s). I wonder how many students today
make efficient use of their computers like this? I guess it's a mix of good
and bad.

It occurs to me that educating younger students about "how to use a computer"
for organising and the like, would be essential in early education before bad
habits set in.

------
baron816
Why are lectures still being conducted in the classroom? Students shouldn't
just be sitting there copying what the teacher writes on the board anyway.
They should be having discussions, working together or independently on
practice problems, teaching each other the material, or just doing anything
that's actually engaging. Lecturing should be done at home via YouTube.

------
zengid
Please excuse me for relating an experience, but it's relevant. To get into my
IT grad program I had to take a few undergrad courses (my degree is in music,
and I didn't have all of the pre-reqs). One course was Intro to Computer
Science, which unfortunately had to be taught in the computer lab used for the
programming courses. It was sad to see how undisciplined the students were.
Barely anyone paid attention to the lectures as they googled the most random
shit (one kid spent a whole lecture searching through images of vegetables).
The final exam was open-book. I feel a little guilty, but I enjoyed seeing
most of the students nervously flip through the chapters the whole time, while
it took me 25 minutes to finish (the questions were nearly identical to those
from previous exams).

------
rdtsc
I had a laptop and left it home most of the time. And just stuck with taking
notes with a pen and sitting upfront.

I took lots notes. Some people claim it's pointless and distracts from
learning but for me the act of taking notes is what helped solidify the
concepts a better. Heck due to my horrible handwriting I couldn't even read
some of the notes later. But it was still worth it. Typing them out just
wasn't the same.

~~~
LyndsySimon
As I get older, I find that physical notes help me more and more. I write in
fairly neat cursive, using a fountain pen, and make it a point to never write
down the words I'm hearing unless they're an important quote or something.
Doing this helps me process the information while it's still fresh in my mind,
which in turn leads to more thorough understanding.

~~~
rdtsc
> make it a point to never write down the words I'm hearing unless they're an
> important quote or something

That's the key I think! The forced paraphrasing (while summarizing) helps
process the information better.

------
alkonaut
This is the same as laptops not being allowed in meetings. A company where
it's common for meeting participants to "take notes" on a laptop is
dysfunctional. Laptops need to be banned in meetings (and smartphones in
meetings and lectures).

Also re: other comments: A video lecture is to a physical lecture what a
conference call is to a proper meeting. A professor rambling for 3h is still
miles better than watching the same thing on YouTube. The same holds for tv
versus watching a film on a movie screen.

Zero distractions and complete immersion. Maybe VR will allow it some day.

------
brightball
Shocker. I remember being part of Clemson's laptop pilot program in 1998. If
you were ever presenting you basically had to ask everyone to close their
laptops or their eyes would never even look up.

~~~
cmiles74
I see this a lot in the workplace as well.

~~~
xexers
Even without laptops I see this in the workplace. In a meeting, if there is a
PowerPoint presentation with words on it, people instinctively look at the
bright and shiny screen. That's why I recommend throwing a few black slides in
your presentation when you want people to focus back on the presenter.

~~~
roel_v
Presentation remotes like those from Logitech have a button to do just that.

------
tsumnia
I think its a double edge sword; not just paper > laptop or laptop > paper. As
many people have already stated, its about engagement. Since coming back for
my PhD, I've subscribed to the pencil/paper approach as a simple show of
respect to the instructor. Despite what we think, professors are human and
flawed, and being in their shoes, it can be disheartening to not be able to
feed off your audience.

That being said, you can't control them; however, I like to look at different
performance styles. What makes someone binge watch Netflix episodes but want
to nod off during a lecture. Sure, one has less cognitive load, but replace
Netflix binge with anything. People are willing to engage, as long as the
medium is engaging (this doesn't mean easy or funny, simply engaging).

[Purely anecdotal opinion based discussion] This is one of the reasons I think
flipping the classroom does work; they can't tune out. But, if its purely them
doing work, what's your purpose there? To babysit? There needs to be a happy
median between work and lecture.

I like to look at the class time in an episodic structure. Pick a show and
you'll notice there's a pattern to how the shows work. By maintaining a
consistency in the classroom, the students know what to expect.

To tie it back to the article, the laptop is a great tool to use when you need
them to do something on the computer. However, they should be looking at you,
and you should be drawing their attention. Otherwise, you're just reading your
PowerPoint slides.

~~~
quantum_magpie
>That being said, you can't control them; however, I like to look at different
performance styles. What makes someone binge watch Netflix episodes but want
to nod off during a lecture. Sure, one has less cognitive load, but replace
Netflix binge with anything.

I personally find that if the air quality is not perfect for my needs, I tend
to go drowsy really fast. Since I hate the artificially dry air, in any
setting where there is either excessive heating in the winter, strong AC in
the summer or too many people in a classroom where you get excessive CO2
concentrations, the attention span plummets. A 15 min break every hour helps,
where you can get outside for at least 5 minutes and get some fresh air. Also,
rooms that have windows that actually open are a lifesaver.

~~~
tsumnia
Not to be a jerk, but that's a discipline matter - you need to do what you
need to do to maintain attention. Too much heating in my car in the winter and
I get drowsy as well; and that's a situation where I need to be VERY engaged!
If I fall asleep at the wheel, I can't blame it on the car, that was my fault.
I do try to practice mindfulness, so I never let myself fall into "auto-
pilot".

Breaks help and are definitely needed, the classes I've taught have been
anywhere from 1 to 2 hours. I'd typically do a 1 hour block, 10 minutes and
finish (or 50 min then break depending on room vibe and natural progression of
material).

However, I cannot control things like AC or number of people. AC in a large-
scale building is an unsolved problem as-is, I have no control over every
person's thermal comfort level (plus everyone's different). In that situation,
I view it more internally as "What can I do to stay engaged?" rather than
"What can they do to keep me engaged?"

With more students enrolling, all you can do is offer ways to let them receive
the material outside the prescribed time. No one has a photographic memory and
can remember literally everything - that's why I make Khan Academy-style
videos of my lectures.

I'd love to mirror a martial art class, where I can rely on more experienced
students to help others, as they may be able to offer another viewpoint I
skipped over (since, I already understand the material, they just figured it
out). However, in a college setting, it's a harder thing to do, given its hard
to convince TAs attend the class again and act as an assistant.

Repetition is a very important tool for learning, but current Western
education philosophy dislikes it. I could go on, but I'm starting to ramble on
a tangent...

------
wccrawford
I'd be more impressed if they also did the same study with notepads and
doodles and daydreams, and compared the numbers.

I have a feeling that people who aren't paying attention weren't going to
anyhow.

However, I'd also guess that at least some people use the computer to look up
additional information instead of stopping the class and asking, which helps
everyone involved.

~~~
aleksei
> However, I'd also guess that at least some people use the computer to look
> up additional information instead of stopping the class and asking, which
> helps everyone involved.

No it doesn't. Practically the only point of lectures is so students can ask
questions. Otherwise just read the material and don't go. Moreover there are
probably others in the class too shy to ask the same question, but at worst it
reinforces everyone else's learning.

~~~
watwut
I hated when people asked not needed questions in lecture for over hundred
people. At least attempt to answer it yourself, don't slow other 99 people
down.

------
emptybits
It makes sense that during a lecture, simple _transcription_ (associated with
typing) yields worse results than _cognition_ (associated with writing). So
pardon my ignorance (long out of the formal student loop):

Are students taught how to take notes effectively (with laptops) early in
their academic lives? Before we throw laptops out of classrooms, could we be
improving the situation by putting students through a "How To Take Notes"
course, with emphasis on effective laptopping?

It's akin to "how to listen to music" and "how to read a book" courses -- much
to be gained IMO.

------
LaikaF
My high school did the one laptop loan out thing (later got sued for it) and I
can tell you it was useless as a learning tool. At least in the way intended.
I learned quite a bit mainly about navigating around the blocks and rules they
put in place. In high school my friends and I ran our own image board, learned
about reverse proxying via meebo repeater, hosted our own domains to dodge
filtering, and much much more. As far as what I used them for in class... if I
needed to take notes I was there with note book and pen. If I didn't I used
the laptop to do homework for other classes while in class. I had a reputation
among my teachers for handing in assignments the day they were assigned.

In college I slid into the pattern they saw here. I started spending more time
on social media, paying less attention in class, slacking on my assignments.
As my burnout increased the actual class times became less a thing I learned
from and more just something I was required to sit in. One of my college
classes literally just required me to show up. It was a was one of the few
electives in the college for a large university. The students were frustrated
they had to be there, and the teacher was tired of teaching to students who
just didn't care.

Overall I left college burnt out and pissed at the whole experience. I went in
wanting to learn it just didn't work out.

------
Fomite
Just personally, for me it was often a choice between "Laptop-based
Distractions" or "Fall Asleep in Morning Lecture".

The former was definitely the superior of the two options.

~~~
izacus
Just stay at home and sleep in then instead of distracting everyone around you
and taking up space?

------
free_everybody
I find that having my laptop out is great for my learning, even during
lectures. If somethings not clear or I want more context, I can quickly look
up some information without interrupting the teacher. Also, paper notes don't
travel well. If everything is on my laptop and backed up online, I know that
if I have my laptop, I can study anything I want. Even if I don't have my
laptop, I could use another computer to access my notes and documents. This is
a HUGE benefit.

------
kyle-rb
>students spent less than 5 minutes on average using the internet for class-
related purposes (e.g., accessing the syllabus, reviewing course-related
slides or supplemental materials, searching for content related to the
lecture)

I wonder if that could be skewed, because it only takes one request to pull up
a course syllabus, but if I have Facebook Messenger open in another tab, it
could be receiving updates periodically, leading to more time recorded in this
experiment.

------
calvano915
Just putting in my 2c that as a senior in dual BS and a minor, technology has
allowed me to be more successful than paper ever will. I can get more notes
written, can draw (I've used a tablet from day one, upgraded to an SP4
recently), import everything to keep it all organized, etc. These arguments
about tech vs. paper are the same about learning styles. People are different,
and what works for them will be different. Professors should allow any tools
that are effective for some to be used, as long as a student is not abusing
the privilege by distracting/harming other's learning. I've let my mind wander
(by means of browsing facebook or some other distraction) in maybe 10 lectures
max over the last 3 years of school. The rest of the time, I had OneNote open
and was fully engaged. When students aren't engaged, they will find
distraction be it on paper or tech. STOP TELLING ME THAT A COMPUTER WILL LOWER
MY GRADES. I have a 3.84 and rising, and I refuse to change what makes me
successful.

------
BigChiefSmokem
I'll give you no laptops in the class if you give me no standardized testing
and only four 15-20 minute lectures per day and let the kids work on projects
the rest of the time as a way to prove their learning and experiences in a
more tangible way.

Trying to fix the problem by applying only patches, as us technically inclined
would say, always leads to horribly unreliable and broken systems.

------
TazeTSchnitzel
> In contrast with their heavy nonacademic internet use, students spent less
> than 5 minutes on average using the internet for class-related purposes

This is a potential methodological flaw. It takes me 5 minutes to log onto my
university's VLE and download the course materials. I then read them offline.
Likewise, taking notes in class happens offline.

Internet use does not reflect computer use.

------
fatso784
There's another study showing that students around you with laptops harm your
ability to concentrate, even if you're not on a laptop yourself. This is in my
opinion a stronger argument against laptops, because it harms those not
privileged enough to have a laptop. (not enough time to find study but you can
find it if you search!)

------
jon889
I have had lectures where I have had a laptop/iPad/phone and ones where I’ve
not had any. i did get distracted, but I found that if I didn’t have say
Twitter I’d get distracted for longer. With Twitter I’d catch up on my news
feed and then a few minutes later be back to concentrating. Without it I’d end
up day dreaming and losing focus for 10-20 minutes.

The biggest problem isn’t distractions, or computers and social media. It’s
that hour long lectures are an awful method of transferring information. In my
first year we had small groups of ~8 people and a student from 3rd/4th year
and we’d go through problems from the maths and programming lectures. I learnt
much more in these.

Honestly learning would be much more improved if lectures were condensed into
half an hour YouTube videos you can pause, speed up and rewind. Then have
smaller groups in which you can interact with the lecturers/assistants.

------
homie
instructors are also better off without computers in the classroom. lecture
has been reduced to staring at a projector while each and every students eyes
roll to the back of their skull

------
dalbasal
I think there is a mentality shift that _may_ come with digitizing learning
which _might_ help here.

The discussion on a topic like this can go in two ways. (1) Is to talk about
how a laptop _can_ help if students use it to _xyz_ and avoid _cba_. It's up
to the student. Bring a horse to water...(2) The second way you can look at
this is to compare outomes, statistacally or quasi-statistically. IE, If
laptops are banned we predict an N% increase in Z, where Z is (hopefully) a
good proxy for learning or enjoyment or something else we want. IE, think
about improving a college course the same way we think about optimizing a
dating site.

On a MOOC, the second mentality will tend to dominate. Both have downsides,
especially when applied blindly (which tends to happen). In any case, new
thinking tends to help.

------
brodock
Any research that takes students as an homogenic group is flawed. People can
be (more or less) in about one of the 7 different types of learning styles
[https://www.learning-styles-online.com/overview/](https://www.learning-
styles-online.com/overview/).

So making claims like "doing X works better than Y" is meaningless without
pointing to a specific learning style.

That's why you hear people defending writing to paper, while others prefer
just hearing the lectures or others have better performance while discussing
with peers (and some hate all of the other interactions and can perform better
by isolating and studying on your own... which is probably the one who will
benefit the most of having a laptop available).

~~~
agentdrtran
Learning styles are have been debunked.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_misconceptions#...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_misconceptions#Brain)

~~~
brodock
debunked is a hard word for "hey, lack of peer review":

"... Coffield's team found that none of the most popular learning style
theories had been adequately validated through independent research." \-
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning_styles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning_styles)

sounds more like lack of funding than pseudoscience.

------
vblord
During indoor recess at my kids school, kids don't eat their lunch and just
throw it away because of the chromebooks. There are only have a few computers
and they are first come first serve. Kids would rather go without lunch to be
able to play on the internet for 20 minutes.

------
nerpderp83
Paying attention requires work, we need to purposefully use tools that are
also distractions.

~~~
ahussain
I definitely feel my attentiveness and focus dropped dramatically after
computers were introduced into my work life. It's a shame that computers
provide such a thin line between work and entertainment.

~~~
striking
You can make that line thicker. You can create a new user on your computer
specifically for work, with a restricted environment. You could use VMs or
dualboot or something.

Personally, I'm very happy that we have devices that are capable of doing so
many things.

~~~
wott
You can but you won't as long as it is possible to bypass the trick, because
you are inevitably attracted (not to say addicted) to the online web content
and interactions and you'll quickly switch back to it.

~~~
striking
I see that as a problem with the person viewing the content, not the device
that enables them.

There are technological tools to help you. There are psychological tools to
help you. You can call upon your friends and family for help.

But for gods' sake, don't blame the computer. That's not going to help anyone.

~~~
ahussain
This is a fair position, but we shouldn't forget that companies have poured
billions of dollars into making these "tools" as addictive as possible,
because that's ultimately how they make their money. See [1] and [2] for more.

[1] - Addiction by Design ([https://www.amazon.co.uk/Addiction-Design-Machine-
Gambling-V...](https://www.amazon.co.uk/Addiction-Design-Machine-Gambling-
Vegas/dp/0691160880))

[2] - Chomsky on Advertising
([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CFwSQiTu3I&t=186s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CFwSQiTu3I&t=186s))

------
Zpalmtree
I like having a laptop at uni just because I can program when the lectures are
boring, I find the material is too easy in UK universities in CS at least,
dunno about other courses or countries, but the amount of effort you need to
get good marks along with the amount you're paying is a bit silly, and mostly
you'll learn more by yourself...

That said, if you're in a programming class, having a laptop to follow along
and try out the concepts is really handy, when we were in an C++/ASM class,
seeing the different ASM GCC/G++ and Microsoft's C++ compiler spat out was
quite interesting.

~~~
bostand
If its too simple and boring for you, why don't you leave?

------
zokier
I love how any education-related topic brings out the armchair-pedagogist out
from the woodworks. Of course a big aspect there is that everyone has
encountered some amount of education, and especially both courses they enjoyed
and disliked. And there is of course the "think of the children" aspect.

To avoid making purely meta comment, in my opinion the ship has already
sailed; we are going to have computers in classrooms for better or worse. So
the big question is how can we make the best use of that situation.

~~~
discreditable
I noticed that the article is speaking from a university perspective. I work
in the high school realm, where teachers have more ability to reprimand
students not on task. That seems to help students use computers more
effectively, but at the same time it requires some effort on the part of the
instructor.

------
erikb
I'd argue that students are better off without a classroom as long as they
have a laptop (and internet, but that is often also better at home/cafe than
in the classroom).

------
zitterbewegung
When I was in College I would take notes using a notebook and pad and paper. I
audited some classes with my laptop using latex but most of the time I used a
notebook. Also, sometimes I would just go to class without a notebook and get
the information that way. It also helped that I didn't have a smartphone with
Cellular data half of the time I was in school.

------
thisrod
> First, participants spent almost 40 minutes out of every 100-minute class
> period using the internet for nonacademic purposes

I think that I'd be one of them; in the absence of a laptop, I'd spend that
time daydreaming. How many people can really concentrate through a 100 minute
nonstop lecture about differential geometry or the decline of the Majapahit
empire?

------
kgilpin
It sounds like what students need are better teachers. I haven't been to
school in a while but I had plenty of classes that were more interesting than
surfing YouTube; and some that weren't.

The same is true for meetings at work. In a good session, people are using
their laptops to look up contributing information. In a bad one... well... you
know.

------
polote
Well it depends on what you do in the classroom, when class is mandatory but
you are not able to learn this way (by listening to a teacher), having a
laptop can let you do other things. And then use your time efficiently, like
doing some administrative work, send email, coding ...

Some students are of course better with a laptop in the classroom

------
jessepage1989
I find taking paper notes and then reorganizing on the computer works best.
The repetition helps memorization.

------
marlokk
Students are better off with instructors who don't bore students into bringing
out their laptops.

------
wh313
Could it be that the intermittent requests to servers by running apps, say
Facebook Messenger or WhatsApp, be tracked as social media use? Because they
all use HTTPS I don't see how the researchers distinguished between idle
traffic vs sending a message.

------
mark_l_watson
In what universe would it be a good idea for students use laptops in class?

Use of digital devices should be limited because the very use of digital
devices separates us from what is going on around us. Students should listen
and take notes (in a notebook) as necessary.

------
_e
Politicians are also better off without a laptop during legislative sessions
[0].

[0]
[http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/solitaire.asp](http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/solitaire.asp)

------
qguv
Internet access, especially to Wikipedia, did wonders for me whenever the
lecture turned to something I was already familiar with. That alone kept me
from getting distracted and frustrated as I would in classes whose professors
prohibited laptop use.

------
aurelianito
Even better, just remove the surrounding classroom of the laptop. Now we can
learn anything anywhere. Having to go to take a class were a professor recites
something is ridiculous.

------
Radle
If students thing the class is boring enough, they'll watch youtube whether on
the laptop or on their mobile is no really important.

------
Glyptodon
I feel like the conclusion is a bit off base: that students lack the self
control to restrict the use of laptops laptops to class-related activities is
somehow a sign that the problem is the laptop and not the students? I think
it's very possible that younger generations have big issues with self-control
and instant gratification. But I think it's wrong to think that laptops are
the faulty party.

~~~
izacus
Riiight, because teenagers and young adults are so known for their long-term
planning skills and self-control.

We're not animals, we don't get born with instincts. This is why humans
require education and upbringing to teach. And yes, this ( _gasp_!) sometimes
means you need to make a non-adult person to do something against their first
whim.

~~~
Glyptodon
I don't disagree except for the fact that college students are supposed to be
at least semi-adults (though perhaps young and silly ones) and getting through
a 50 minute class without giving in to digital temptations is really something
that people ought to be capable of well before college.

~~~
jpindar
In fact, it's probably helpful for them to practice that before they have to
on the job.

------
Shinchy
I've always find the idea of taking a laptop to a lecture pretty rude. I'm
there to give the person teaching my full attention, not stare at a laptop
screen. So personally I never use them in any type of lecturing / teaching
environment simply as a mark of respect.

------
alistproducer2
"Duh" \- anyone who's ever been in a class with a laptop.

------
jonbarker
Students need a GUI-less computer like a minimalist linux distro.

------
dorianm
Pen and papers are the best. Also chromebooks are pretty cool

------
exabrial
Students are best of with the least amount of distractions

------
rokhayakebe
We really need to begin ditching most studies. We have the ability now to
collect vast amount of data and use that to make conclusions based on millions
of endpoints, not just 10, 100 or 1000 pieces of information.

~~~
Balgair
informed consent for scientific research is very specific and very important.
It's history is somewhat intersting, but goes back to the Geneva conventions
in the aftermath of WW2 and the Axis efforts on human experimentation:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2328798/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2328798/)

------
partycoder
I think VR will be the future of education.

~~~
snakeanus
How so?

------
ChiliDogSwirl
Maybe it would be helpful if our operating systems were optimised for working
and learning rather than to selling us crap and mining our data.

~~~
snakeanus
There are many OSes that don't do that.

------
Kenji
If you keep your laptop open during class, you're not just distracting
yourself, you're distracting everyone behind you (that's how human attention
works - if you see a bright display with moving things, your attention is
drawn towards it), and that's not right. That's why at my uni, there was an
unspoken (de-facto) policy that if you keep your laptop open during lectures,
you're sitting in the backrows, especially if you play games or do stuff like
that. It worked great - I was always in the front row with pen & paper.

However, a laptop is very useful to get work done during breaks or labs when
you're actually supposed to use it.

------
Bearwithme
They should try this study again, but with laptops heavily locked down.
Disable just about everything that isn't productive including a strict web
filter. I am willing to bet the results would be much better for the kids with
laptops. Of course if you let them have free reign they are going to be more
interested in entertainment than productivity.

------
catnaroek
This is why I like to program in front of a whiteboard rather than in front of
my computer: to be more productive.

------
bitJericho
The schools are so messed up in the US. Best to just educate children yourself
as best you can. As for college kids, best to travel abroad.

~~~
robotresearcher
> As for college kids, best to travel abroad.

15 of the top 20 universities in the world are in the US.

[https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-
rankin...](https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-
rankings/2017/world-
ranking#!/page/0/length/25/sort_by/rank/sort_order/asc/cols/stats)

~~~
izacus
As claimed by US publication using their own US biases for ranking :)

~~~
robotresearcher
It's a British publication.

Choose any other well-regarded ranking and you'll get similar results.

~~~
robotresearcher
E.g. The Shanghai AWRU index 2015 has 15 US schools in the top 20.

[https://www.timeshighereducation.com/student/news/shanghai-r...](https://www.timeshighereducation.com/student/news/shanghai-
ranking-academic-ranking-world-universities-2016-results-announced)

------
FussyZeus
Disengaged and uninterested students will _find_ a distraction; yes, perhaps a
laptop makes it easier but my education in distraction seeking during middle
school, well before laptops were even close to schools, shows that the lack of
a computer in front of me was no obstacle to locating something more
interesting to put my attention to.

The real solution is to engage students so they don't feel the urge to get
distracted in the first place. Then you could give them completely unfiltered
Internet and they would still be learning (perhaps even faster, using
additional resources.) You can't substitute an urge to learn, no matter if you
strap them to the chairs and pin their eyeballs open with their individual
fingers strapped down, it won't do anything. It just makes school less
interesting, less fun, and less appealing, which makes learning by extension
less fun, less appealing, and less interesting.

