

We are all in this together - craiglockwood
http://www.craiglockwood.co.uk/blog/we-are-all-in-this-together

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doesnt_know
You are quick to point out how you don't want a union, but what you are
describing are pretty much the first steps to creating a union. Most are born
out of the desire to provide financial and emotional support to those within
your industry.

That's not to say that they are always all sunshine and lollipops, but I guess
it's too difficult for some people to accept that unions can actually also be
a positive thing too.

~~~
Joeboy
I guess the bit of a union that's not wanted is the collective bargaining bit,
which probably seems unappealing or pointless while web developers are
generally in demand.

~~~
michaelochurch
_I guess the bit of a union that 's not wanted is the collective bargaining
bit, which probably seems unappealing or pointless while web developers are
generally in demand._

Sorry, but collective bargaining is a real need, even if wages are high.

As programmers, we should have:

    
    
        * readily available legal support when faced with non-paying clients.
        * recourse against clients and employers who use reputation threats to justify 
          nonpayment or bad behavior (i.e. "if you don't accept our unfunded scope creep, 
          we'll call other clients.")
        * (for employees) representation when in trouble with management. The right to 
          have a representative *in the room* (mostly, because if you negotiate on your
          own behalf, you're at risk of getting emotional and saying something
          stupid) when dealing with management or HR.
        * defense against negative references and back-channel reference checks in 
          general. 
        * transparency in compensation.
        * negotiation of terms that are embarrassing for an individual to
          formally address, such as severance, health accommodations
          and workplace privacy. 
    

These are things that "collective bargaining" can get. Hollywood actors have a
union, even though they're clearly in high demand. In a celebrity economy, you
need unions and agents just to deal with the reputation-management issues that
quickly become a full-time job in their own right (and that are typically ill-
handled by creative specialists like actors or computer programmers). As
white-collar employment becomes increasingly reputation-driven, we need this
infrastructure yesterday.

Let's say that you find out that an ex-boss from 4 years ago is bad-mouthing
you and costing you gigs. If you hire a nasty fucker like me, I can make him
shut the fuck up. I'd find a plausible health problem, either one you have and
don't mind sharing, or one that would work. Then I'd ask you to communicate to
him that you had disclosed that health problem during your employment, his
error if he forgot, and that negative communication about you or your
performance will be judged discriminatory, so it's best not to say anything at
all. Then I'd call that reference for you, about a month later, getting
everything on tape and if he was still giving you problems, I'd refer you to a
lawyer (but, unlike a union, I can't afford to pay for that). Chances are, you
wouldn't know how to handle that. Most people don't. A competent union will.

~~~
Joeboy
FWIW I don't disagree with you, was just speculating about why people in tech
don't think they need a union.

~~~
michaelochurch
Unions have a (mostly undeserved) terrible reputation. First, they're most
often associated with strikes. A strike is a breakdown. No one wants a strike.
If people associated them, instead, with a strong middle class, they'd have
different opinions. Second, many unions are corrupt. That's a real problem,
but most corporate management is far worse.

Add to this the fact that there are a zillion clueless 20-year-old engineers
in the Valley who think they're going to be VC-darling CEOs in five years, and
cashed-out billionaires in ten, and you get a culture of clueless and foolish
self-reliance.

I don't want something as corrupt as the pilot's union, or as mediocrity-
protecting as the teacher's union. I do think that programmers need _some_
protection given the volatility of this economy, and the increasing importance
of reputation (which requires having full-time professionals to manage it).

To me, the biggest negative of a union is that it risks commoditization of
labor. (But, for some hope, see: professional organizations and the unions for
screen actors and writers.) However, since we're already being commoditized
(JIRA, Scrum, closed allocation) we really have nothing to lose in most shops.

~~~
bokonist
" _But, for some hope, see: professional organizations..._ "

While those organizations are good for the profession, they are bad for the
country as a whole. The AMA expends much effort on making the barriers to
entry in the medical profession as high as possible. This artificially
restricts the supply of doctors and makes healthcare more expensive overall.

The same happens with bar associations. How much money is wasted, how many
people are driven into debt, because bar associations require a useless law
degree to enter the profession? (as opposed to allowing lawyers to self-study
and pass the bar on their own)

 _" I don't want something as corrupt as the pilot's union, or as mediocrity-
protecting as the teacher's union."_

The question is - how would one create a union that would avoid falling into
these traps eventually? How can we be sure the union will not end up
protecting incompetence and erecting artificial barriers to entry into the
profession?

------
EnderMB
I'm kinda ashamed to admit that I don't really know a lot about what a union
does for its workers, since outside of the odd retail job when I was a
teenager I've always worked as a developer, and I've never known anyone in an
agency or startup setting that has been a part of a union. In some professions
and industries, everyone is in a union without question.

Why does there seem to be no such thing as a Software Developers union in the
UK, and why are so many people against having a union for those that work on
the web?

~~~
craiglockwood
I think people may be a little worried that a union may be the first step
towards regulating an industry.

~~~
ryandvm
I think the bigger issue is that many see unions as institutionalized
mediocrity.

I've been in union factories where guys literally sleep at their machines
after they've hit their quota. I've watched inferior employees linger at jobs
for years simply because making a case for firing them is more trouble than
it's worth.

People in our industry tend to be self-reliant autodidacts. I suspect this is
because the information technology landscape changes so rapidly that the
traits are required to be successful. A lot of us therefore appreciate the
meritocracy of tech. We like the fact that better skills mean higher pay,
regardless of seniority. The last thing we want is to have "tenured" engineers
that don't contribute and can't be fired.

~~~
mattgreenrocks
> self-reliant autodidacts

What happens when your self-reliance fails you?

> meritocracy of tech

This is a pleasant lie we tell ourselves. Even open source (which is 100%
unpaid labor) is not meritocratic. Witness how quickly employers clamor for
credentials.

> We like the fact that better skills mean higher pay, regardless of seniority

This is only half true. You generally don't get a massive raise by being a
much better developer. You do get to the developer salary ceiling faster than
others, of course. But the fact that there is a ceiling (despite the immense
value a good dev can generate) is troubling. Casting aspersions about
experience (in the guise of seniority) is also troubling.

Perhaps the primary reason there's no collective action for developers is that
a substantial number of developers are still in their twenties, and lack the
perspective + career experience to realize what it could do for them. They're
still mentally invincible, striving for the next big thing, and they don't
want anyone's help.

~~~
slavik81
> Even open source (which is 100% unpaid labor)

Actually, work on major projects is typically paid labour. For example, if you
look at the Qt project, only about 10% of contributions come from individuals.
Most of the other 90% of contributions come from people with employers paying
for the work.

[http://www.macieira.org/blog/qt-stats/](http://www.macieira.org/blog/qt-
stats/)

------
mitchtbaum
What comes to mind for me of a community that helps its fellow members is a
Church, Synagogue, Temple, Mosque, Ashram, Wat, etc.

These styles of community have purposefully enabled collaboration for
thousands of years, EDIT: and lifted their members up along the way.

I think what they have in common is that their members share a common vision
for the future of Humanity, trust each other to help fulfill it, and regularly
meet face to face.

A possible vision that could unite web workers today is Engelbart's revelation
of the need for tools to solve complex problems.

~~~
mattgreenrocks
These often serve as 'third places' and are a valuable tool for socialization
that Western society has nixed in favor of cheap substitutes like Facebook and
Reddit.

It's not a community unless there's also accountability; which entails clear
standards of behavior and being held to them. In a professional context, this
would be a minimum bar of skills, along with resources for continuing your
training.

------
Joeboy
I think sending a card or flowers, and providing financial assistance, are two
very different kettles of fish.

If you want to do the former, just go ahead and do so. If they're sent
personally it will mean more than if they've come from an organisation whose
remit is to send cards and flowers.

If you want to provide meaningful financial assistance, IMO that's a good and
noble socialist goal, but involves a really large amount of work and politics.
It would be great if you could make it work though.

------
noir_lord
I thought the idea sounded vaguely familiar then I realised where from.

It's the starting point of something that could look a lot like the medieval
guild system (something that I've often thought might work pretty well for
programmers).

~~~
dabrowski
> (something that I've often thought might work pretty well for programmers)

As long as it's voluntary of course.

~~~
noir_lord
Oh absolutely.

One of the reasons why calling it a Guild rather than a Union is that Union
has a lot of negative connotations in a lot of countries (here in the UK for
example the Unions have a bad reputation for been difficult to work with and
older people remember their role in the late 70's).

Also Union has connotations of "Union Shop" which is definitely something that
a lot of people regard as negative.

\---

I'm thinking more of an organisation that exists to protect programmers,
represent our interests publicly, has internal standards and recommendations
as par for the course, I doubt the old master/apprentice relationship would
translate or for that matter the journeymen systems.

Here in the UK we have the British Computer Society which (theoretically) does
something similar but in practice I'm not really sure that they actually do
(and as an aside the two people I did know who had paid to join I wouldn't
have employed to sweep up).

I'm not sure how well it would work out though since it strikes me as
something with a high degree of cat herding built in :).

~~~
oneeyedpigeon
"here in the UK for example the Unions have a bad reputation for been
difficult to work with and older people remember their role in the late 70's"

Of course, that depends on your political persuasion: a lot of us have
sympathy for the union workers who were brutally crushed by Thatcher's
government in the 80's. Speaking as a programmer who has been a union member
in a previous job, I would be supportive of a programmer's union.

~~~
noir_lord
Without rehashing the old arguments Thatcher's destruction of the Unions would
have been far harder to achieve had they not ground the entire economy to a
halt frequently in the late 70's, I'm neither left or right wing in my
politics (as much as possible since those labels are crude and inaccurate at
best) but the blame is as much the Union's as Thatcher's in this instance.

I personally think that Union's on the whole are probably a good thing
(something has to exist to balance the power of capital) but that the UK model
was fundamentally broken (I actually like the German model.

------
kostandin
I'm struggling with the same problems for couple of years now. And not a few
people around me have the same problem. That's why I started a project called
Togetherise ([http://www.togetherise.com](http://www.togetherise.com)) couple
of months ago. The main idea is to bring people together when fulfilling some
work/idea/project or just to help each other. Portal will offer both knowledge
and tools. It is in a development phase right now. I believe it will fill the
gap we're all talking about. It is not meant to be used only by developers or
designer. It targets all project and people that need help or can offer help
through mentoring or coaching. A good team of professionals is already behind
this project, so I hope we'll enter beta phase by the end of spring.

------
bigpool
I saw this a while ago, it sounds like what you're talking about. It is for
Bike Messengers who are injured on the job.
[http://www.bicyclemessenger.org/](http://www.bicyclemessenger.org/)

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chrisdevereux
OT, but I'm now concerned that David Cameron might have stolen his 2010
election slogan ("We're all in this together") from High School Musical.

~~~
Joeboy
More likely from the film "Brazil". Where interestingly it is used both by the
dystopian government and by Robert de Niro's renegade heating engineer.

~~~
cema
But de Niro's character is using it mockingly. Which, I think, is the proper
usage of slogans in general.

------
alexarno
For anyone working in the creative industries in the UK there is
[http://nabs.org.uk/](http://nabs.org.uk/) They offer exactly this kind of
support. From grants, to advice and help, they are a body supported mostly by
the big agencies AFAIK that has been around for over 100 years. They even run
a nursing home for retired media workers!

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mccolin
Union groups for freelancers and independent workers do exist, with a focus on
providing things like insurance coverage and other benefits many indies forgo
or have to overpay for at group rates. Freelancers' Union is a good example:
[https://www.freelancersunion.org/](https://www.freelancersunion.org/)

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chrisjlee84
Looks down now. Google cache link here:
[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.craiglockwood.co.uk/blog/we-
are-all-in-this-together)

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amy_dev
What about something like this
[http://www.patreon.com/](http://www.patreon.com/) except with the focus you
describe in your blog post?

