
When the Judge Distrusts Your Lawyers - nkurz
https://masslawblog.com/trials-2/when-the-judge-distrusts-your-lawyers-waymo-v-uber/
======
olliepop
> Uber has a team dedicated to collecting trade secrets from competing
> companies. Allegedly, the people involved use disappearing-message apps,
> anonymous servers, and secret computers and phones to communicate without
> leaving a trail.

If true, then this is absolutely unreal.

Add it to the growing list of dodgy Uber tactics:

Ride-hailing company (Uber) hit by revelations it used custom-built tool to
deceive law enforcement, while latest departure of senior staffer deepens
troubles [https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/mar/03/uber-
secr...](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/mar/03/uber-secret-
program-greyball-resignation-ed-baker)

Uber employees have ordered and canceled more than 5,000 rides from rival Lyft
since last October, according to new data provided by Lyft.
[http://money.cnn.com/2014/08/11/technology/uber-fake-ride-
re...](http://money.cnn.com/2014/08/11/technology/uber-fake-ride-requests-
lyft/index.html)

CNNMoney spoke to three Uber drivers who said they received a text message
that said they were "forbidden" from driving with another company.
[http://money.cnn.com/2014/08/04/technology/uber-
lyft/?iid=EL](http://money.cnn.com/2014/08/04/technology/uber-lyft/?iid=EL)

Uber admitted on Tuesday that it underpaid its New York City-based drivers by
millions of dollars over the past two and a half years
[https://www.theverge.com/2017/5/23/15681422/uber-
underpaid-n...](https://www.theverge.com/2017/5/23/15681422/uber-underpaid-
nyc-drivers-accounting-commission-error)

Uber will stop its controversial practice of tracking users for up to five
minutes after a trip has ended, as it attempts to turn around its mired public
image. [https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/aug/29/uber-u-
tu...](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/aug/29/uber-u-turn-
tracking-users-after-trip-ended-app-user-privacy-new-ceo)

Uber’s Hell program used fake passenger accounts to track the location and
status of Lyft drivers. [http://www.newsweek.com/uber-used-hell-program-track-
lyft-dr...](http://www.newsweek.com/uber-used-hell-program-track-lyft-
drivers-583430)

~~~
ben_jones
When I hear stories like this I think of the developers who likely thought of
and implemented the systems behind these criminal acts and I'm once more
reminded that software developers, in aggregate, are on a similar level to
'90s finance "tricksters" etc. We'll do whatever if the money is there.

~~~
tehlike
One unfortunate side of progress and technological advancement is that it can
be unethical, in the hands of people with less ethics.

Think of it this way: 1. Anybody in robotics/ai/ml is helping uav technology
used for military purpose. 2. Anybody in financial lending could help fuel
financial crisis. 3. Anybody in software could be enabling surveillance
technology without even realizing.

~~~
ryacko
It's worse. They realize it, but don't care. Or rather, this is a cool project
where we get to transcribe voice in real time.

------
emilfihlman
Could anyone explain why trade secrets are something you can sue over if no
NDAs or similar have been signed?

~~~
lmkg
It's technically a type of intellectual property, like a patent. If no
agreements are in place, it's still infringement.

~~~
mc32
Does that mean someone can't independently come up with the formula for Coke
(Pepsi or any knock off) because it's their intellectual property? [Or KFC's
13 spices]

Or is Pepsi (and other knock offs) sufficiently different? Or something else
working here.

~~~
newfoundglory
I'm pretty sure the fundamental difference between trade secrets and a patent
is that if someone else comes up with it independently, or if you tell someone
what it is, a patent protects you and a trade secret doesn't.

~~~
mc32
OP [lmkg] says it would still be infringement, if there is no agreement
[x-licensing]. Not sure if that is true or not though.

~~~
newfoundglory
They are probably assuming that you were given the information with the
knowledge it was a trade secret even if you didn't sign anything specific
about keeping it secret, not that you invented it separately.

~~~
mc32
That was the missing piece. Thanks.

------
basicplus2
Option 4.

File a motion asking Judge Alsup to recuse himself (withdraw from the case). A
recusal motion may be based on evidence that a judge is biased or lacks
impartiality.

Yeh.. the judge has busted us, so he is not impartial because he knows we are
guilty...

------
tomohawk
Here's another case where attorneys from the DoJ made misrepresentations to a
judge:

[https://cis.org/Feere/Federal-Judge-Issues-Stinging-Order-
Ob...](https://cis.org/Feere/Federal-Judge-Issues-Stinging-Order-Obama-
Administrations-Conduct-DACA-Litigation)

They were ordered to take ethics courses and barred from appearing in court in
the judicial district.

------
skarap
> Once a judge catches a lawyer in a lie the judge will question everything
> the lawyer says.

Not a lawyer, but isn't is taken for granted that lawyers (along with
everybody else) are lying in courts and that it's the jurors and judge's job
to find out who is lying?

~~~
tialaramex
No. Lawyers are officers of the court. Especially in civil cases which are
just about the balance of evidence, their role is to put their side of the
truth in the best light. Not to just make up whatever bullshit they think
might win.

~~~
comex
Even in criminal cases:

> the defense lawyer may not lie to the judge or jury by specifically stating
> that the defendant did not do something the lawyer knows the defendant did
> do.

[source: [https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/representing-
client-...](https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/representing-client-whom-
the-lawyer-thinks-is-guilty.html)]

------
pimmen
I just don’t get why engineers want to work for Uber.

They have treated their drivers poorly (eg. under paying them and fighting
benefits other cab companies have to pay), their riders poorly (eg. not
telling them their personal data was stolen), their engineers poorly (eg.
giving zero fucks about sexual harassment without the press getting involved),
local governments poorly (eg. dodging law enforcement and regulators by making
them wait for rides that never come), rival companies poorly (eg. ordering and
cancelling rides from Lyft) and their investors poorly for not disclosing any
of this shit.

Really, why do you work for them? Are you laughing your asses off when you
hear another engineer leaving a company that does bad things because you’re
going to make more money and that’s what matters? Or is the problems you’re
solving really that interesting you couldn’t care less if someone is using
what ypu built to mess with people’s lives in likely illegal ways? Our
profession is about solving problems that makes people’s lives better, how can
you just be ok with what they’re using what you built for? Don’t you feel any
responsibility making the tools they need to do these things? And, if they
haven’t done anything illegal and unethical with your system yet, how can you
be sure they won’t given their track record?

Where’s your professional integrity is what I’m asking. If think our
profession needs a license like stock brokers, realtors, accountants,
physicians, attorneys or cab drivers have. Implementinh any of the systems
that enabled any those shenanigans Uber has pulled off should be grounds for
revoking it because I fear that’s what we need to do to make engineers stop
and think ”yeah, they’re giving me boat loads of money and I get a good resume
if I would want to work for Google or Facebook but what if I get caught?”
because apparently otherwise they would gladly give Uber the tools to screw
people over and sleep well at night.

~~~
leggomylibro
Integrity is a rare coin these days, but to be fair, it won't buy you much.

I still think it's worthwhile because...you know, be nice to people. But I'm
fortunate to be in a position where I can be a sucker like that without
serious consequences. I know that having integrity in the current market hurts
me a bit, but I can afford it.

Maybe not everyone has that sort of option - maybe Uber's extra $20k keeps
their mortgage above water or something. But I dunno, maybe that's also just
being charitable. I'm getting pretty disillusioned these days.

~~~
placebo
Integrity is always an option, but it's definitely not always an easy option.
I'm glad you're in a place where you don't have to test it and hope that I
also won't find myself in a difficult place where it will have to be tested,
but I do know that it's the only coin that is really worth anything.

~~~
leggomylibro
Yeah, exactly. It's also much easier when you have a hierarchy that
communicates and responds reasonably to criticism or questions.

Not everyone does, though. I feel like insurance companies should really start
demanding independent 'inspector general' sort of offices to be retained by
companies above a certain value. At some point, there just gets to be too much
money at stake to trust people to act properly.

Some companies actually are starting to invest in that sort of thing, mostly
because of all of the sexual harassment news flying around. I think it's a
promising idea, to give employees a point of contact outside the company's
usual chain of command, and it could help with all sorts of toxic power
imbalances. I can also see how it could maybe cause issues, but I'm all for
trying new things to see how they work.

