
What happened to the noble art of the manly cry? - magda_wang
http://aeon.co/magazine/society/is-there-anything-wrong-with-men-who-cry/
======
michaelwww
It's interesting to me that last week I saw an article on HN that bascially
asked the question "Is it ok for men to cry?" And now this article asking
"What happened to the noble art of the manly cry?" It's interesting to me
because I used to be a young man who didn't cry, and now I am older (late
50's) and I cry. I feel no shame at all and think it's a sign of sanity. What
happened? Life happened. The older you get, the more things that make you want
to cry happen. Speaking in general terms, parents pass away, you get divorced,
you lose your house, you get fired or layed off, your best friend dies of a
heart attack, your kid OD's on drugs; any number of things can and often do go
wrong. I think Joe Biden is currently a great example of a man who cries. If I
could send a message to my younger self I'd say go ahead and cry, because you
will and you'll be better off for it.

------
beloch
Over the last century men in many parts of the world (but not all) have become
substantially more restrained in how they convey emotion physically. Watch a
hollywood film from the 30's and you'll see men hugging, slapping each other
on the back, holding hands, walking arm-in-arm, etc. in a very casual manner.
Man hugs still happen in movies, but only in times of extreme emotion. Think
back to the last time a co-worker gave you a hug. It was probably quite a
while ago!

Some cultures still show a lot of emotion and have a lot of physical contact
(e.g. Turks). People in these cultures also tend to stand much closer when
talking. Put a Western European or North American in their midst and he'll
feel very uncomfortable. Showing strong emotions is also generally more
acceptable in these cultures. I may have fist pumped a couple times when my
team won the Stanley Cup, but I've seen Turks do cartwheels, flop on the
ground in hysterics, get up and start hugging everyone in the room because
their soccer team won a quarter-final!

So, what happened? Why, in less than a century, did we become so aloof and
restrained? Homophobia may be one possible reason. If two men unconsciously
stand too close to each other while looking at the same thing someone (a woman
did this to me once) will exclaim "ARE YOU TWO GAY!??". Physical contact,
sharing emotions, etc. are things that, in the last century, have become off-
limits for heterosexual men, and women enforce this as much as men do despite
the fact that the same standard does not apply to women.

The psychological effects of this on men are probably not good. It's something
that we should honestly make an effort to reverse, but how do we do so? What
are things going to be like in another century if we don't?

~~~
foiboitoi
You bring up good points. But...

>Homophobia may be one possible reason. If two men unconsciously stand too
close to each other while looking at the same thing someone (a woman did this
to me once) will exclaim "ARE YOU TWO GAY!??".

Is that really fear of homosexuals? Or more a heterosexual desire to appear
available. Even among other males who make those "accusations", the counter-
reaction to not appear gay is also an attempt to appear available to women and
not decrease your odds of that (you don't want false rumors to spread).

To me "ARE YOU TWO GAY!??" is more flamboyant curiosity than a homophobic
behavioral condemnation.

~~~
foiboitoi
Downvotes? Guess that's what I get for being honest & speaking from my own
experience... I brought that up because you can only solve a problem when you
understand what's gone wrong. And pinning it on homophobia is a swing and a
miss IMHO. If there's a real single answer, it'd more likely be about male
reputation & maintaining respect in our corporate focused culture. Which I
think isn't that far removed from honor culture.

------
terravion
The article seems to be exhorting for more crying, but isn't it more likely
that the Scandinavian / English / global business culture is spreading and
will take over more and more of the world.

Maybe the "advantageous" solution is for more people to gain more control over
their emotions and learn to mitigate the negative effects of fewer outward
expressions. The article claims English speaking men have only learned to do
this in the last few hundred years, but it seems to coincide with
exponentially increasing size and power of that group.

Moreover, own little tech industry seems to be much less expressive than the
industries that we are supplanting and replacing. And frankly, I think that
lowered emotional availability is attractive to many of our most talented
members and promotes their success.

~~~
rsfern
I agree that coping skills are an advantage, but you seem to be suggesting
that a decline in emotional expression has led to or somehow enabled
industrialization.

Causality probably runs the other way around. The author suggests a plausible
mechanism for this massive cultural shift: factory owners and managers
discouraging emotional display in the name of productivity. Do you have an
alternative viewpoint?

Your statement that lower emotional availability (relative to contemporary
office culture) is attractive and beneficial seems counterintuitive to me. So
much of our work is done in teams that it seems the stereotypical inscrutable,
unapproachable engineer personality is more of a liability. How would you
define 'emotional availability', and what makes less of it attractive?

~~~
norea-armozel
It's about making everyone's psychological patterns more similar. Look at how
women are forced to conform into a narrow definition of beauty and feminine
autonomy to the point of erasing all ethnic and national variation. Same with
childhoods which revolve around certain activities and even brands of
products.

It's not so much an intentional but a side effect of mass production where
goods sold are dependent on regular consumption. No regular consumption within
tolerances then no goods produced. Men are no less victim to the structure of
production than any other demographic. Only the richest members of society may
be free to live what we think of today as eclectic life styles (where
consumption is a tertiary concern).

------
xiaoma
According to the Isaacson biography, Steve Jobs used to cry in business
meetings.

~~~
EliRivers
I routinely weep in the quarterly sales meeting.

------
thowmeinariver
It's more likely that your declining testosterone is to blame.

edit: Please explain the downvotes, I'm trying to offer a more scientific
explanation.

~~~
jschwartzi
Well, OP is trying to explain that, as a man, it's okay to cry, and here you
are saying that real men don't cry, and if he were more of a man he would be
able to go through life stoically ignoring his feelings. It's basically the
exact attitude that the article decries.

~~~
thowmeinariver
I disagree, I found OP's statement to be very egotistical. He was painting
himself as superior to younger men because "they haven't experienced much,
that's why they don't cry!". Should younger men whose hormones don't allow
them to cry feel bad about themselves? Are they subhuman for what they are?
Have they not had enough "real life experiences"? This is obviously false. In
fact, the majority of young men who experienced far worse than OP would still
find themselves less likely to cry, and the reason is simply: biology.

edit:

>and think it's a sign of sanity

Right, only OP is sane. Men who don't cry are lunatics.

~~~
crpatino
If you are going to ask for an explanation, and then deny what people is
trying to tell you and twist their words, you might as well take the down
votes with a measure of dignity.

