
Colorado Stores Throw Open Their Doors to Pot Buyers - danso
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/02/us/colorado-stores-throw-open-their-doors-to-pot-buyers.html?hp&_r=0
======
vyrotek
_" Skeptical federal authorities are also paying attention. Although marijuana
remains illegal under federal law, the Justice Department has given a
tentative approval for Colorado and Washington to move ahead with regulating
marijuana. But it warned that federal officials could intervene if the state
regulations failed to keep the drug away from children, drug cartels or
federal property, and out of other states."_

I have a feeling there are going to be people who ruin it for everyone else.

~~~
mkhpalm
Truth is, every law is based on people who ruin it for everybody else. That is
how marijuana got outlawed in the first place. People has this belief that we
are somehow rewarded for passing thousands of new laws every year. The
resulting authoritarian society is just the unintended consequence. Nobody
actually picks authoritarianism on purpose.

~~~
lukifer
Dig a little deeper on the history of anti-cannabis laws, and you'll find
they're rooted primarily in fear of Mexicans and blacks. Sometimes
authoritarianism is the goal, not the side effect.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_J._Anslinger](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_J._Anslinger)

------
mynameishere
According to this the price will initially go up:

[http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/12/30/high-
prices-f...](http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/12/30/high-prices-for-
getting-high-expected-as-colorado-opens-legal-pot-shops)

...but since marijuana is literally a weed, why wouldn't the price eventually
drop to something like that of tea? I mean, tea is harder to grow, process,
and ship, and you can get it for 6 dollars a pound. Even the overpriced
teavana stuff can go for as little as 40 dollars a pound.

~~~
cookiecaper
There's still significant risk in grow operations because it's still a federal
crime. The Obama administration has chosen not to enforce that law for the
time being, but that can change on a moment's notice, and is likely to change
if a conservative attains office (which will probably happen in 2016).
Furthermore, even when done legally, there is significant regulatory burden on
a state-sanctioned grow.

You're correct that ultimately marijuana will probably be really cheap, but we
have to wait for the rest of the drug enforcement apparatus to become
irrelevant.

~~~
rmc
Hang on, can you explain this to a European? How can something be legal and
illegal?!

~~~
cookiecaper
So the EU is basically the "United States of Europe". Remember, the US is a
bunch of independent states (NOT provinces) who pool resources for the sake of
defensive and economic convenience, just like the EU. Technically, the Feds
are supposed to have very limited powers.

The situation in Colorado is analogous to The Netherlands explicitly declaring
something allowed that the EU councils in Brussels have explicitly declared
disallowed. One authority claims it's OK, the other claims it's not OK, and
the citizen has to choose which authority they trust and/or fear more.

~~~
rmc
Well considering the EU has no guns, no army, no police force[1], no courts
_for people_ , and no prisons and the Netherlands _does_ , it's obvious which
to trust.

EU law binds _countries_ , not people. If a country does something that goes
against EU law (which happens _all the freaking time_ ), then you can sue the
_country_ in the EU courts to get the country to change the law. The EU isn't
able to arrest you. And regardless, it's the national law is the only real
law. EU law is just what a country is supposed to do.

[1] There is Europol (European Police Office) which is only for aiding
cooperation between national police forces. It has no powers of arrest, and
(most tellingly) it only has 800 staff for a population of half a billion
people.

~~~
cookiecaper
I'd definitely agree that, at least for the moment, the EU's powers are much
weaker than the US's powers. I think it involves the EU member states being
much less compatible and much more storied than US member states, and also the
EU as an organization being much younger.

I believe it's evident that when you fly a bunch of groups under a single
banner successfully for a long time, what starts as a loose, powerless
alliance with only administrative activities (as the US was originally
conceived) eventually becomes a very strong central power apparatus (as the US
has now become).

Maybe it'll be different in Europe where the member states have so much
independent history. Everything out here was basically a blank slate before it
was annexed by the Union. In the relatively few places where this isn't true,
there is much stronger anti-federal sentiment (the South, Hawaii). I guess New
England is anomalous regarding anti-federal sentiments because I think it has
always thought of itself as the most influential power in federal governance.

------
JeffL
Here's to the great idea of Federalism, and hoping that Colorado and
Washington show everyone else the way forward.

~~~
squirejons
federalism, in reality, is really better exemplified by the unelected federal
judges from ivy league law schools who decide the way we live our lives.

That is really what federalism is.

Democracy is what happens when the citizens of colorado and washington create
their own laws to live by.

~~~
cdcarter
I believe he was referring to what we call New Federalism, or "states rights".

------
xacaxulu
Colorado, unlike a large number of US states, seems to take crazy things like
simple economics and overwhelmingly positive scientific research into account
when drafting laws. Here in the south we prefer to use 1950's mores, Jim Crow
era law enforcement priorities and 3000 year old Judean religious texts when
writing our laws. Bravo Colorado!

~~~
bobby100
\- There are no successful clinical trials on marijuana by the FDA.

For someone who praises science, your statements really show your ignorance.

~~~
ItendToDisagree
Isn't that because it was scheduled as illegal? Circular logic is fun!

~~~
bobby100
So? What does your straw man have to do with anything? He stated marijuana is
scientifically proven to be beneficial. It hasn't. No successful clinical
trials exist.

~~~
ItendToDisagree
_\- There are no successful clinical trials on marijuana by the FDA.

For someone who praises science, your statements really show your ignorance.

So? What does your straw man have to do with anything? He stated marijuana is
scientifically proven to be beneficial. It hasn't. No successful clinical
trials exist._

A brief use of the Googles turns up:

[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24373545](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24373545)

[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24375977](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24375977)

[http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-
bin/sample.cgi/mpohbp/asap/abs/mp060...](http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-
bin/sample.cgi/mpohbp/asap/abs/mp060066m.html)

and many more if you bother to look (also negative impact if you're interested
in those!)

Generally you do not do a 'clinical trial' on something that is marked as a
schedule 1 substance.

What straw man are you referring to? You implied it had no benefits because it
doesn't have clinical trials... It doesn't have clinical trials because it is
said to have no benefits (schedule 1)... Circular logic! Magic!

Edit: Quoting parent

~~~
bobby100
THC is already legal in pill form with a prescription. Again as I've stated,
there are zero successful clinical trials (in the USA or anywhere else) that
show smoking marijuana is beneficial. Standard scientific proof requires
clinical trials.

~~~
ItendToDisagree
_THC is already legal in pill form with a prescription. Again as I 've stated,
there are zero successful clinical trials (in the USA or anywhere else) that
show smoking marijuana is beneficial. Standard scientific proof requires
clinical trials._

First you never mentioned "smoking" in your parent (I quoted it in my earlier
reply for reference).

Second 'clinical trials' are a specific thing. In the words of Inigo Montoya,
you keep using those words, I do not think it means what you think it means.

A clinical trial is only done at a specific stage of clinical research or
commercial drug development. Clinical trials are an expensive process that
must be paid for by the researcher/company looking to market the drug. You may
want to read up on what a clinical trial entails before you insist on it being
the only useful scientific metric. Clinical trials are also primarily
concerned with safety (it is at least 2 of the phases of the trial).

You may want to reconsider your use of 'clinical trial' in your criticism
here.

Edit: Last it seems that you did not even bother to read or comprehend my
comment/links before you replied with a comment that attempts to change the
subject (smoking vs THC in pill form). That seems like very 'trolly' behavior
and I will stop responding if you would not like to actually discuss the
subject.

------
danso
FYI, why the man in the current lede photo is, well, at the top of the story:
his purchase is a symbolic one, as he's a Iraq War veteran with PTSD
[http://www.theverge.com/2014/1/1/5263314/Sean-Azzariti-
first...](http://www.theverge.com/2014/1/1/5263314/Sean-Azzariti-first-person-
legal-recreational-marijuana-colorado)

~~~
wavefunction
It's disgraceful that our Veterans are treated the way they are. I have a few
acquaintance who served several tours in Iraq and Afghanistan and the only
thing that's allowed them to "reintegrate" back into peaceful civilian life
has been illicit cannabis use. They live in Colorado so I'm hoping today is a
great one for them.

------
heynk
Does anyone know if Colorado is enforcing seed traceability? That is one of
the rules according to Washington's I-502
([http://www.liq.wa.gov/publications/Marijuana/I-502/I-502_Dra...](http://www.liq.wa.gov/publications/Marijuana/I-502/I-502_Draft_Rule_Summary_IIX_12-06-13.pdf)
crtl-f "Traceability"). Theoretically, that means the Feds would be able to
know where the pot came from if it was found out of state. If implemented
effectively, that would negate some of the worry about the product ending up
in the wrong hands.

~~~
wavefunction
Plants can be grafted one onto another, sometimes cross-species. You can graft
Cannabis onto grape vines for example.

Pro-growers can pretty much maintain the exact "same" plant for generations of
plants.

Obviously this doesn't change the DNA "fingerprint" of the graft but it just
shows the "seed to customer" tracing is a meaningless regulation.

~~~
code_duck
Indeed, most growers 'clone' their plants as a propagation technique
(cuttings). This style, growing a mother plant from seed and then taking
hundreds of cuttings which grow into full size plants, ensures consistency and
is faster than starting each plant from seed. Growers often swap trimmings
rather than seeds, and they're sold in dispensaries.

------
ck2
I'm curious what happens to the people who were surviving on the cash from
selling it illegally.

Some of them are poor slobs. Some of them are organized crime.

Are they just going to try to sell it at a lower price since the police cannot
tell where you got it from and might not even care anymore? Tax savings alone
radically reduces the price.

~~~
jdkuepper
The same profit margins exist for tobacco and alcohol, especially cities like
NYC, but there are relatively few bootleggers in both markets. I think the
legal risk significantly offsets the increase in price from taxation. But then
again, cannabis differs from tobacco and alcohol in many ways in that an
underground market has become highly developed. It will indeed be interesting
to see...

~~~
seanalltogether
There's also the consumer component. How many people would buy unbranded non-
shrinkwrapped cigarettes off the back of a truck?

~~~
VintageCool
As it turns out, plenty!

[http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/05/nyregion/05loosie.html?pag...](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/05/nyregion/05loosie.html?pagewanted=all)

------
rwmj
I wonder how many more years before gutless UK politicians consider proper
cannabis regulation?

~~~
EliRivers
Usually follows the US by a couple of years.

------
mschuster91
So, now that pot is legalized, how will the police fill all those costly new
jails with black people now?

Criminalize them just for being black?

~~~
nathos
The black population is just 4.1% of Colorado, vs. the national average of
13.1%

~~~
mschuster91
I'm non-US so I dont have any idea where to obtain detailed statistics - but
does anyone have data about how many blacks in Colorado are in state/fed jail
for pot compared to the whole US?

And as a side question: do private jails exist in Colorado, or is the jail
system in state hands?

~~~
yesiamyourdad
Federal jail would be a federal thing. There are federal prisons in CO, most
notoriously the Supermax in Florence, but they don't put simple drug dealers
in there. Federal arrests for pot in CO?

Most recent stats I found are 2010
[http://www.ccjrc.org/pdf/2010_Colorado_Quick_Facts.pdf](http://www.ccjrc.org/pdf/2010_Colorado_Quick_Facts.pdf)
Latinos/as account for 17.1% of the population in Colorado, but 31% of the
state prison population. • African-Americans make up 3.8% of Colorado’s
population, but represent 19.4% of people in state prison. • Anglos are 74.5%
of the state’s population, but only 46% of the prison population CO has
private prisons too. I think that's nationwide these days, sadly.

Now bear in mind that pot has been de-facto legal in CO for about 4 years
already. The Denver PD (largest city in the state) has been de-emphasizing pot
enforcement for several years. There's been greater emphasis on other
enforcement areas, like domestic violence and drunk driving.

------
Multics
More acceptance would presumably result in more clinical trials of cannabis.

I'm aware of some small scale studies which have shown promise for diseases
such as IBD (Crohn's/ulcerative colitis). How it stands presently some
sections of society (global) suffer unnecessarily.

I'm lead to believe that some substances in cannabis are neuroprotective; This
contrasts to something like alcohol, which causes neurological damage.

And from what I've read, it can also inhibit angiogenesis within tumours.
Thus, may be legitimately useful against cancer.

It's hard for me to make assertions with sources, as this is merely what I've
read over the years. It simply hasn't been worth the time to investigate
further, given its legal status. But from what I can gather, outlawing of a
drug with low toxicity and potential medical benefit is an absolute travesty
for humanity! It's tantamount to low-grade torture by the state on people who
have an illness that can be, to some degree, ameliorated. There also seems to
be a pandering to special interests (alcohol, tobacco, and the prison
industry). And a disregard for people's freedom.

Some may not like the idea of Cannabis being legal, but if it becomes a
substitute for alcohol and tobacco, it could turn out to be a health boon
(given its low toxicity). Not to mention the saving of lives via a reduction
in organised crime.

It's a shame this didn't happen earlier, and in more places!

~~~
ItendToDisagree
More research seems like a really good side benefit if it happens.

Inhaling burning plant matter is still bad for you. There are alternate means
of ingesting the compounds in Marijuana though.

~~~
Multics
Vaping, edibles, and tea. At least that's what pop culture says.

~~~
ItendToDisagree
I'm learning so much from this article/submission!

------
philfreo
I wonder what the web-based POS system they are using in that photo

~~~
thedudemabry
My employer, MMJMenu :)

~~~
chatmasta
Awesome. As the marijuana industry grows, so to will the industry for
infrastructure supporting it, especially for compliance. I've been saying this
for years. Cool to see a company executing on this opportunity.

------
robobro
Smoking a bowl to celebrate! :-)

------
gdubs
A lot of mentions of airports in the first few paragraphs -- no doubt a
foreshadow of articles to come on the DOJ.

------
icpmacdo
Finally, I am certain once other states see the revenue they will follow suit
in legalization.

------
puppetmaster3
We have same in Silicon Valley:
[http://www.yelp.com/search?find_desc=medical+marijuana+dispe...](http://www.yelp.com/search?find_desc=medical+marijuana+dispensaries&find_loc=San+Francisco%2C+CA&ns=1)

~~~
MattLaroche
Except in California it's nominally medicinal, and in Colorado it's
recreational.

------
sesquipedantic
>To skeptics, it marked a grand folly, one they said would lead to higher drug
use among teenagers

They don't know what the proper incidence of usage is. Meanwhile, we _all_
need to know why some people become addicts and others don't

------
theorique
So it looks like there may be chronic price increases, at least until some
kind shop owners open up. Once the stores start spreading like weeds, prices
should come down.

------
squozzer
US invasion imminent.

------
squirejons
in this discussion in the media, out of all the millions of words that are
going to be written about pot legalization in WA and CO over the next few
weeks, how many words are going to be devoted to the fact that in the states
of washington and colorado pot was legalized because the citizens of those
states are able to create their own laws?

Very few words will be devoted to that aspect of it, and those corporate media
articles that do discuss it will speak negatively of it.

And because the media will not bring it up much, neither will comments online
do so.

Well, except for my comments.

~~~
maxerickson
They are hardly unique in that regard:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initiatives_and_referendums_in_...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initiatives_and_referendums_in_the_United_States#Types_of_initiatives_and_referendums)

(They both have direct and indirect initiative statutes, but plenty of other
states have one or the other (with more states having the direct initiative,
which is probably closest to your "citizens of those states are able to create
their own laws"))

------
notastartup
BC Liberals listen up! BC bud is the last good thing remaining besides the
shit job market and housing bubble. Take note of the Southern brethrens and
emulate, tax, pay off the Olympic debt. If Vancouver does not do this, all the
tech people will leave!

------
goggles99
It will be very interesting to see the numbers in the next 5 years. Numbers of
those who smoke pot vs who don't. Lets see how successful financially each
group are. How much they contribute to society. It will also be interesting to
see which group goes further in school or their career. Which group turns out
more long term "happy" people. Which group breaks more laws ETC.

I already know the answers to all of these questions, but it will interesting
to see it become a provable, statistical reality.

~~~
ItendToDisagree
What are the answers? Is there a back of the book? Give up the goods!

This (OP) is one of the funniest HN submissions I've ever seen for comments.
What does this have to do with HN?

------
k-mcgrady
>> "“This is our dream,” said Kirstin Knouse, 24, who flew here from Chicago
with her husband, Tristan, to take their first-ever marijuana vacation."

And there's some people already ruining it. I believe Amsterdam had this same
problem. Drug tourism is not something cities want for many obvious reasons.

~~~
ernestipark
I understand the sentiment, but you forgot to include the rest of the
paragraph:

>> She said that she suffered from seizures and fibromyalgia, and her husband
from post-traumatic stress, but that the couple had not been able to get
medical marijuana at home. “We’re thinking about moving here because of it,”
she said.

Maybe they're just making up excuses, but doesn't sound like these are a
couple of 20 year olds just looking to get high in the middle of the day.

~~~
philangist
Not that there's nothing wrong with that either.

~~~
silencio
Agreed.

I have a MMJ card in CA because it helps with some nerve pain I have. Half the
time I use it it's a tiny amount to get me through the next couple hours
(placebo or not it works well especially for the trivial cost) and half the
time it's to get so high at night that I stop caring about it and hopefully
get at least a few hours of uninterrupted sleep in. The benefits of the latter
are severely underrated when you deal with chronic pain.

Not to mention I have no idea why society has a double standard with casual
marijuana use especially given the use of alcohol, tobacco, caffeine,
prescription drug abuse, and more out there. I'm trying to drink less alcohol
as part of my weight loss plan for my wedding and it really shocked me to
realize that people around me easily kill a bottle of wine per person at a
single dinner on top of drinking cocktails, beer and straight liquor... and
that my restraining myself to 1-2 alcoholic drinks a week is crazy in
comparison. Some of my friends persistently bother me for Adderall that I
never give away because I barely have enough of for myself. Et cetera. Weed is
pretty harmless in comparison I would think.

