
Estonia becomes the first to open a nationwide electric vehicle charging network - jkaljundi
http://estonianworld.com/technology/estonia-becomes-the-first-in-the-world-to-open-a-nationwide-electric-vehicle-fast-charging-network/
======
saym
Estonia has impressed me with their forward thinking policies. Everything
about their execution of this plan has me impressed. They have executed well
in financing the building of this network and in creating a sustainable
business model for the future.

Related note: 5 Months ago I remember hearing about their plan to introduce
programming into elementary curriculum.
[http://developers.slashdot.org/story/12/09/04/2136256/estoni...](http://developers.slashdot.org/story/12/09/04/2136256/estonia-
to-teach-programming-in-schools-from-age-6)

~~~
martinced
_"They have executed well in financing the building of this network..."_

They have executed well in the building. Financing is kinda easy for a country
of only 1.3 million people heavily subsidized by the European Union (which
Estonia is a part of).

During the 2008-2009 crisis (which is not done yet but I digress), the
Estonian GDP took a gigantic hit: -20% of the GDP. That's what you get when
you're taxing the private sector like crazy: the private sector, in usual
circumstances, can barely survive. If any crisis happens, then the private
sector dies and the economy crumbles (thank you socialism for the crazy high
confiscatory tax rates on the private sector).

It's like Poland, for example: I love this country and it feels incredibly
more "new" and even sometimes more "hi-tech" (e.g. in big cities malls) than
western europe... But Poland is receiving crazy funding from the EU to get up
to speed.

As an EU taxpayer, that said, it's good that at least some of money is used to
invest in technologies that are bound to become very important in the
future...

~~~
jmspring
Agree with your point about both the size of the country and the funding they
are receiving. That said, when I visited Estonia in the early 2000s, prior to
being in the EU, their broadband infrastructure seemed better than that of
Finland and Germany (two countries I spent time in). That may have well been
due to it's overall size.

What is interesting to me about Estonia now is the lack of overall diversity
in the tech sector there. The biggest tech employers seem to be the
government, the banks, and Skype.

Maybe Skype buyout V2 will inject more in the way of a startup culture there.

~~~
jkaljundi
Estonia has ~15000 people working in the tech sector. There are 1500 tech/IT
companies, 26 of them above 100 employees. IT/Tech is ~5.8% of GDP (2010).

Here is one Estonian Startups list: <http://hub.garage48.org/estonian-
startups> \- all in all, there are 100+ active startups in Estonia, which I
would say for a country of 1 million people is quite a startup culture.
Estonia now has I believe 7 or 8 European startup accelerator Seedcamp
winners, trailing only UK, Seedcamp's home country.

~~~
BHershewitz
This is kind of misleading. Many of the start-ups on that list are
headquartered (or host major operations) outside of Estonia; they're
considered Estonian only because the founders hold Estonian nationality. You
wouldn't call start-ups headquartered in the US and founded by Indians "Indian
start-ups", would you?

~~~
elisehein
This might not be the case for quite a few Estonian startups though -- with
1.3 million people you're desperately lacking a large enough target market for
the niche products that some startups are developing, and looking to other
countries may actually be a part of a strategy, not simply a case of 'I happen
to be an Estonian living in the UK so I'll just go with the flow and do my
startup here'. I would call these startups Estonian.

------
codefoe
Being an Estonian citizen and all I know that I'm very lucky to have born in
Estonia. Blazing fast internet speed comparing to U.S (according to a few U.S
friends, not some giant stats machine) and free WiFi in nearly all of the
bars, clubs, pubs, coffee shops, restaurants, malls there are. At least in the
capital city that is.

That being said, tech might be top-notch, but the economy is sinking. Sure,
they raised the minimum wage to 350 EUR / month, but all it really did was
increase the number of "officially poor" and since living cost is catching up
with Finland (not in houses or apartments as of yet, but pretty much
everything else) the ~400 EUR most people get for paychecks around here is not
for living, it's for suffering.

So perhaps a better thing to do would be to just fall behind in the tech field
a bit (a bit, not die) and actually do whatever the hell is needed to provide
companies with enough income to pay decent salaries. I have no idea how the
entire "money making" system works and I'm sure it's complicated as hell, but
if they have money to make Estonia a tech country that has a ton of poor
people who are struggling to collect enough money to get the hell out of here
then maybe they should instead invest that money in people - and in return get
people invest in the country itself.

------
vacri
I do have to note that Estonia with its 165 chargers is curiously only as wide
as the distance between the 'superchargers' in the recent Tesla debacle...

~~~
prostoalex
Surprised Vatican hasn't beaten them to a punch with a nationwide charging
network, but with their upper management exodus I guess that slipped on the
priority list.

~~~
vacri
Interesting point - I didn't even think the Vatican had roads. Looking at
google maps now, it does seem to have some, but I'm not sure if they're public
(not that you couldn't have a charger because of that)

~~~
dalke
Challenge accepted.

<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6768395.stm> says there's a 30km/h speed
limit and an accident in 2006.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments_for_Drivers> says there are
1,000 cars in Vatican City.

A-ha! Here's a description of the people who drive in Vatican City:
<http://mes.stparchive.com/Archive/MES/MES03141997p05.php> . It's at the
bottom, along with a description of the parking problems and congestion. Based
on
[http://www.slate.com/articles/life/welltraveled/features/201...](http://www.slate.com/articles/life/welltraveled/features/2011/vatican_inside_the_secret_city/vatican_guide_inside_the_pope_s_supermarket.html)
, these roads are not open to the public.

Lol. The joys of automatically generated text.
[http://www.expedia.co.uk/Compare-Cheap-Car-Hire-In-
Vatican-C...](http://www.expedia.co.uk/Compare-Cheap-Car-Hire-In-Vatican-
City.d6052608.Car-Hire-Guide) claims "However, most car hire vendors will also
have pick up/ drop off locations within Vatican City, so if you are staying in
the city then you may want to consider this as an option ... If you plan to
hire a car and drive around Vatican City to take in the sights, it's
worthwhile taking a bit of time out and stopping off and visiting the
historical Casina Pio IV (Villa Pia). The big advantage of hiring a car in
Vatican City will not only allow you to enjoy the scenery within the city
boundaries but will also makes it much easier to explore beyond the city."

Casina Pio IV is "home to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, the Pontifical
Academy of Social Sciences and the Pontifical Academy of St. Thomas Aquinas."
I'm pretty sure it's not on the top things to see while in Vatican City.

~~~
SilasX
><http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6768395.stm> says there's a 30km/h speed
limit and an accident in 2006.

Hm, they could just restrict driving to golf carts and be the first fully-
electric-car nation ...

~~~
dalke
A lot of the people with cars in Vatican City also want to drive in Rome. I
suspect most would not like golf carts for that purpose, compared to a car.

------
anonymousDan
_The construction of the fast-charging network was financed by using the funds
received pursuant to a CO2 emission quota sales agreement entered into between
the Republic of Estonia and Mitsubishi Corporation._

Anyone understand what this sentence from the article means?

~~~
TheAntipodean
I believe it refers to Estonia selling off excess carbon credits to Mitsubishi
under a mid-long term agreement.

Mitsubishi needs to purchase these credits to stay within regulatory
requirements pertaining to emittance of CO2 probably in the EU. Given that
Mitsubishi is a large manufacturer they probably produce above their alloted
quota of CO2 and therefore must purchase credits from someone/some
organization (in this case Estonia) that does not use their full quota.

Estonia is using the income from this agreement to fund the fast-charging
network.

This is all educated speculation as to its meaning. Apologies for no links to
references to back up my understanding. I am sure a quick search will provide
more information.

------
mtgx
Wouldn't it be great if governments everywhere created solar-based chargers
like those of Tesla, with some back-up to electricity for night charging or
for when all the power is used at a charger for the day, and then the whole
population could buy electric cars much faster?

~~~
jkaljundi
Not in Estonia. We don't have any sun, except for few days in the summer. Wish
we could produce electricity from cold, rain and darkness.

~~~
jk4930
For "rain" see [1] using the mechanical energy of falling rain drops.

For "cold" see [2] the idea of using the potential energy of snow on mountains
(or hills). Maybe create artificial avalanches.

For "darkness", no idea. :)

\-----

[1] <http://phys.org/news120216714.html>

[2] <http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/eng99/eng99635.htm>

~~~
jkaljundi
Crap, we don't have mountains either :D The highest point is 318 meters ASL.

------
bjhoops1
And they already beat the US in Internet speed.
<http://www.netindex.com/download/allcountries/>

~~~
adventured
Know what the top countries on that list have in common?

I could beat the US in Internet speed if I setup a neighborhood network.

~~~
yen223
What's the average Internet speed in, say, the Bay Area?

~~~
wybo
Anecdotally it sucks. The ADSL people generally have in SF is terribly slow.
Even my moms internet in the Dutch country-side, 8 miles from the nearest
city, with cows for neighbors on all four sides of the house, had faster
internet than that.

For the Bay Area numbers:
[http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870395970457545...](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703959704575454042453615112.html)

------
relix
On the highways, every 60km a ChaDeMo quickcharger. €18.000 credit if your car
is 100% EV. I just wish Tesla sold some here.

~~~
jnsaff2
I spoke to Tesla about this, they were not interested. Said I'd have to sell a
few Roadsters to demonstrate interest.

Mind you I was talking to their sales team in London, who probably needed to
offload unsold Roadsters.

~~~
jusben1369
Ha! Perhaps try calling them back on the 1st of the month rather than the 27th
when they're trying to make quota :-)

------
newbie12
Unfortunately, because Estonia derives almost all of their electrical power
from coal, this is a wasteful setback for the environment.

[http://www.tradingeconomics.com/estonia/electricity-
producti...](http://www.tradingeconomics.com/estonia/electricity-production-
from-coal-sources-percent-of-total-wb-data.html)

~~~
NickM
Even if they derived 100% of their electricity from coal, it would be a huge
win for the environment. There have been multiple studies done on this, and
power plants and electric motors are massively more efficient and clean than
gasoline cars. Even when you factor in transmission losses, charging losses,
etc. and assume you're using 100% coal power, EVs beat ICEs by a wide margin.

Not to mention, solar is rapidly approaching the point where it will be
cheaper than coal, so it's only a matter of time before coal will start
getting phased out anyway.

~~~
uvdiv
_Even when you factor in transmission losses, charging losses, etc. and assume
you're using 100% coal power, EVs beat ICEs by a wide margin._

I'm pretty sure it's the opposite. Do you have a particular study/calculation
in mind?

[http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/15/automobiles/how-green-
are-...](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/15/automobiles/how-green-are-electric-
cars-depends-on-where-you-plug-in.html?pagewanted=all)

------
firefoxman1
What happened to hydrogen cars? I was expecting them to come out on top, but
it seems electric charging stations are growing much faster than hydrogen
refill stations.

~~~
henrikschroder
Burning hydrogen is but one step in the whole "well to wheels" chain that's
needed to get your car moving. That single step appears very appealing - it
turns into water! - but all the other steps along the way are extremely
difficult.

How much energy can a car have with a "full tank of hydrogen", and what would
that tank look like? Remember, a bucket of gasoline contains more hydrogen
than a bucket of liquid hydrogen, and the gas kan be reasonably safely kept in
the bucket, but the hydrogen requires very special equipment.

How will you get the hydrogen into the car? Gas can be poured into the gas
tank, how would you transfer liquid hydrogen safely? Remember, chain-smoking
stressed out soccer moms with three screaming kids in the car have to be able
to do this without blowing themselves up.

How will you get hydrogen to the gas stations? How will you manufacture the
hydrogen? You can't mine it or collect it, so you would have to create it by
splicing water, a process which consumes a lot of energy. Where will you get
that energy from? And if you're going to use electricity anyway, how much of
that energy is lost in the process?

What's the "well to wheels" efficiency of a hydrogen vehicle? I'm pretty sure
it's smarter to just charge a battery in the vehicle directly, through the
electricity network, rather than going the roundabout way of creating volatile
hydrogen at special plants, transporting that hydrogen to gas stations, having
equipment for allowing people to fill up their cars, and finally combust the
hydrogen in the car to make it move.

So what happened? Someone did the math on the whole chain, instead of just
handwaving the massive infrastructure problems away.

~~~
nuclear_eclipse
The benefit of hydrogen IMO is not needing to mine tons of potentially
hazardous or toxic minerals to make giant swaths of batteries, not to mention
that you can actually fill up the fuel tanks just like you would with
gasoline, rather than needing to wait 30-60 minutes for a "supercharger", and
the overall range of existing hydrogen vehicles is generally on par with or
better than the range of gas-powered vehicles.

They've already "solved" most of the problems you mention; the "problems" are
with scaling that sort of infrastructure. Scaling EV chargers is just much
simpler.

~~~
pm90
Once the number of EV's get high enough, we can have recycling stations for
them. Another benefit of having an Electric car is that you don't care about
the source that produces the electricity. So tomorrow when cold fusion is
feasible, we just build a bunch of them and power all our vehicles with the
electricity that they produce.

However, I am interested in hydrogen as a fuel from a long term perspective.
In the future when we have vehicles that need to run on other planets,
presumably hydrogen will be the fuel; however I'm not sure those engines will
be IC; maybe miniaturized jet engines? :) edit: probably not, since jet
engines need _oxygen_ which may not be available on other planets

------
brownbat
It'll be an interesting test, Estonia can get bitterly cold.

