Ask HN: “Do you have to be open to unethical behavior in order to be succesful?” - Lonewxlf
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shubb
It's worth pointing out that certain normal business practices can feel
unethical to us (programmers) because of conditioning.

For instance, a good deal in business is one where you all a good for more
than it costs.

If you were a freelance developer, that might mean charging a large amount for
a feature of high business value because you know the client will pay, even
though it doesn't cost you much to do.

Another aspect is information asymmetry. In the above instance, lieing about
how many hours the feature would range to implement would be unethical for
sure. But not saying how long it would take - charging for features and
keeping the cost to implement to yourself - probably not.

Then we get to practices like subscriptions you expect people will forget to
cancel (see every consumer facing sas), or building a platform with the
intention it will be hard to leave (no export or api = a moat = Facebook)

Are these unethical though? I think mostly not. You need a business model, and
business models mean not running things like you are doing a favour for your
uncle. I think the line is where you mislead or get your customer to do things
potentialy against thier interests without telling them they are taking a
risk.

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devopsproject
Define success.

To have a career and your basic needs plus some met? no

To be an industry leader\ceo of wealthy company? evidence suggests it wouldn't
hurt to be a bit "flexible" ([http://www.cnbc.com/2017/03/21/apparently-
psychopaths-make-g...](http://www.cnbc.com/2017/03/21/apparently-psychopaths-
make-good-ceos.html))

~~~
1ba9115454
Success is being happy with what you have already.

~~~
devopsproject
"what you already have" is a meaningless metric. In 3rd grade I had a lot of
toys and plenty of food that someone else bought. Trying to maintain this
level of "having'ness" isn't sustainable since I would eventually become bored
of my toys and my food providers would die leaving me hungry.

Find some meaning\goal and work to it. Trying to put a number or fixed value
on something so nebulous is a waste of time.

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Lordarminius
In the real world, rising to and functioning at the 'top' implies recognizing
that a different set of rules applies.

How you deal with this reality is up to you.

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ronzensci
Your own inner voice will tell you when you are being unethical and when you
are merely benefitting from your experience or knowledge. Being unethical is
not a grey area - almost everyone has an internal compass which can tell
themselves in black or white (people know when they are self-justifying).

I would argue that you don't every need to cheat your own self to be
successful.

~~~
taway_1212
> almost everyone has an internal compass which can tell themselves in black
> or white (people know when they are self-justifying).

What about Nazis or USSR's NKWD - I hardly doubt that all of them knew that
what they're doing is immoral.

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dbrunton
If you want to be a successful bank robber, probably. Pirate, yeah, probably
that too. If you want to be a successful hit man, smuggler, or drug dealer,
you're going to have to bend some rules.

I think if you tell a different sort of story about what you're doing, that
it's something worthwhile, and that success involves being a person that
people can rely on... well, I don't think being unethical will help you much.

I suppose if you have enough power, people won't give a damn about your
ethics. But I think if you can get to the middle without hurting a lot of
people, you're going to be identified as one of the people the rest of the
middle would like to have at the top.

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temp8976
Imho, No. However it depends on what you mean for unethical... Talking about
what is supposed to be our fiels (software engineering) i've been constantly
in situations where "unhetical" developer sold the creepy code solutions cheap
to customer who are not aware of the real cost in the long run, i tend to
offer more professional solutions obviously less cheap and becausw i believe
in honesty i explain the drawback of the cheapest solutions to the customer
letting them to decide, in the long run i always got succesfull job-relations
and mantain my own sense of hetic.

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matbram
Absolutely not. Many people and companies are actually more successful because
they don't take the road most traveled. It's refreshing to come in contact
with someone trustworthy and ethical.

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itamarst
If you're working in ways that you feel are unethical then you're not
successful by definition: you've failed at being true to yourself.

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BjoernKW
No, certainly not. In fact, I'd say it's much harder to be successful if
you're not trustworthy or if you act inconsistently, which is what unethical
behaviour boils down to because you're applying different sets of rules to
yourself and others.

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remline
I'm not sure that there is any challenge presented by society against
individuals who choose not to be selfish, but not respecting the selfishness
and poor ethics of a group that considers you a member may as well be
criminal.

