
Big data meets Big Brother as China moves to rate its citizens - razin
http://www.wired.co.uk/article/chinese-government-social-credit-score-privacy-invasion
======
vorg
A certain social score has progressively been rolled out over the past few
millennium. It began in the granaries of Mesopotamia and the Yellow River, and
nowadays only a few tribal people aren't part of it. It's known as "money" and
currently measures how well people work, sell, save, invest, not get caught,
and other such characteristics. It's stacked because people's opening balances
are fixed by birth rite. Because of the existence of different currencies and
asset classes, it's been controlled by a loose consortium of various central
banks and regulatory authorities. This Social Credit Score in China to
supplement its People's Currency (Renmin Bi) merely changes the ranking
criteria and governing authorities involved. There's no new paradigm here.

~~~
lazerpants
Though I enjoy your example, and see your point, claiming that money is the
same as China's social credit score is disingenuous. Money is not entirely
centralized, you can spend it as you like, negotiate prices without government
interference, and move it between people without the government deeming it
acceptable. Other people can make you rich, the government doesn't get to tell
them they cannot give you money.

Your analogy dovetails nicely with arguments against cashless societies
though, as it would be easy to implement a centralized authority over currency
clearing using a social rating system and centralized authority over banks.

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unpythonic
Brasil by Terry Gilliam already predicted this. As the main character, Sam
Lowry, is being brought in to be tortured, a guard tells him, "Don't fight it
son. Confess quickly! If you hold out too long you could jeopardize your
credit rating."

It's amazing to me to see the dystopian comedies of the 70's and 80's becoming
all too true. Another good example is Network from 1976 based on the farcical
premise that a news organization would be taken over by the network's
entertainment division.

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avs733
"Earlier this year, I noticed something in China that really surprised me. I
realized I felt more comfortable discussing controversial ideas in Beijing
than in San Francisco. I didn’t feel completely comfortable—this was China,
after all—just more comfortable than at home." ~Sam Altman 12/14/2017

China is systematizing, really appifying, inequality and privilege. The public
in the US is starting to push back on that same privilege. To me, Sam's quote,
this article, and Erin Griffith's other recent piece[0] all make sense
together in a way that really concerns me.

[0][https://www.wired.com/story/the-other-tech-
bubble/](https://www.wired.com/story/the-other-tech-bubble/)

~~~
orthoganol
> I felt more comfortable discussing controversial ideas in Beijing

You're reading too much into Sam's quote. This is almost certainly because
East Asia has zero PC culture (homogenous populations; nothing in history), so
he doesn't feel those particular pressures there that he's reacting against
here. That's all.

~~~
avs733
I think I read it pretty much at the surface level. I'm not interested in
reading into what he meant, his choice of words is plenty to interpret.

'PC culture' is not a thing. what you call PC culture is free speech working
as designed...everyone has an equal right to free speech, free action, and
free thought. What you call PC culture is in reality nothing more than a group
with power demanding their thinking be privileged above critique.

The fact that a person with extreme financial and social power feels 'freer'
expressing their point of view in a totalitarian regime than in a place where
someone with lesser power might have their own free speech rights is a
demonstration of how free speech fails not how it thrives.

Fetishizing rights, as is becoming common in the US, is an impediment to
equitable access to the power those rights give. It confuses the issue and is
nothing more than a recuperative act[0] designed to reinforce existing
structures of power.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recuperation_(politics)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recuperation_\(politics\))

------
deadmetheny
So China thought that the plot of a Black Mirror episode[1] was a great idea
to enact in reality? Spectacular.

[1][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosedive](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosedive)

~~~
vkou
No, they thought that the credit score system where every institution that I
freely and voluntarily transact with gives me a score between 1 to 5, and is
used to determine my employment, whether or not I am allowed to live in an
apartment, how much I have to pay for bail, how long I am sentenced for if I
commit a crime, whether or not I can buy a house... Is a good idea.

~~~
mattnewton
Whattaboutism doesn’t argue against the fact that the Chinese plan includes
social measures, like your expressed political thought. They are both
alarming- this one more so.

~~~
vkou
Why is having your social score be based on money less alarming than having it
be based on your political activity?

~~~
mattnewton
There are many reasons, but for one, it’s because free speech is how people
who are harmed by something can peacefully argue to change the system, and
without it, the power structure ossifies and becomes inflexible to the needs
of political minorities.

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prepend
And this is the point where I just check out of the internet except for
perfunctory interactions.

I think this will be a growth area for AI, where we will have bots running
pretending to be us so they can properly minmax all of the measures showing us
as model participants in a system that "... will forge a public opinion
environment where keeping trust is glorious. It will strengthen sincerity in
government affairs, commercial sincerity, social sincerity and the
construction of judicial credibility."

------
Chardok
What really frightens me is how Tim Cook and Zuckerberg swoon head-over-heels
for a country that implements such an aggressive top down control of their
citizens as this program.

I have already become acutely aware of self censorship, especially with posts
associated with my name, out of expectation of something similar making its
way into the US. Heck, I would not be remotely surprised to find out Facebook
already has a working prototype to associate and score people based on their
connections.

------
res0nat0r
Here is also a good and disturbing look at this:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHcTKWiZ8sI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHcTKWiZ8sI)

~~~
touristtam
So it's a gamification of social interaction, meaning that can be gamed
(exploited).

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pwaivers
Would this fly in the United States? Is there a near-future where this will
happen in the U.S. as well?

I think it would not. Americans value their individuality too much. I think
"trustworthiness" is not really a characteristic that Americans would want to
rate each other on.

~~~
hyyypr
What about Credit scoring, to a French this also sound like an absurd idea.

~~~
lazerpants
Really? Does France not have a system for deciding who is likely to default on
loans, and what interest rate to charge them based on the loan risk?

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hosh
Hmm. The cultural revolution may have attempted to wipe out the traditional
Chinese culture, yet this idea is very much aligned with Chinese sensibilities
(such as Confucian ideas).

------
perseusprime11
We already have this in U.S. It's called your FICO score.

~~~
jdale27
To expand on the sibling comment, if the article is accurate the social credit
score is based on some of the same factors as the FICO score (e.g., do you pay
your bills on time) and has some of the same implications (how easily you can
get a loan). However, it also has broader scope (e.g., it also includes social
and behavioral input that isn't used in FICO scores AFAIK) and broader
implications (e.g., "at [a score of] 750, they get fast-tracked application to
a coveted pan-European Schengen visa").

~~~
perseusprime11
To add to what jdale27 said, here's another quote from a related article-
"Hong Kong-based Lenddo takes it one step further by using a debtor’s social
connections to exert pressure if he or she defaults on payments, according to
the Journal. For example, the start-up will tell customers’ Facebook friends
if they haven’t paid, and the friends’ Lenddo scores could suffer if the
customer fails to repay the loan. "

Just plain weird to me if you ask my opinion.

Link: [http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/the-social-
credit...](http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/the-social-credit-score-
separating-the-data-from-the-noise/)

~~~
nielsbot
Give creditors the system and they'll try to use it to the maximum extent
allowed.

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pszndr
"rate its citizens": The 'that black mirror episode!' clickbait

"The Chinese government plans to launch its Social Credit System in 2020. The
aim? To judge the trustworthiness – or otherwise – of its 1.3 billion
residents": The more accurate subtitle, which you can now see since you gave
us your click. Gotcha!

Credit rating is nothing new, be it for people, corporations or even
countries.

~~~
astebbin
This is much, much more than a credit score, and it is disingenuous to claim
otherwise.

FTA:

“Friends matter, too. The fifth category is interpersonal relationships. What
does their choice of online friends and their interactions say about the
person being assessed? Sharing what Sesame Credit refers to as "positive
energy" online, nice messages about the government or how well the country's
economy is doing, will make your score go up.”

~~~
LoSboccacc
the goal is to promote isolating and ostracizing dissidents since having one
in your circles influences your rating... the goal basically is self
censorship at massicve scale and unprecedented granularity. stop circulating
certain ideas even offline.

