
Wine 3.0 Released - etiam
https://www.winehq.org/news/2018011801
======
jacek
Photoshop CC 2018 works on Wine 3.0. Screenshots [1] and original post [2].

[1] [https://imgur.com/a/k0HI0](https://imgur.com/a/k0HI0)

[2]
[https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/7ql4kl/the_screensho...](https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/7ql4kl/the_screenshots_of_photoshop_cc_2018_64bit_on/)

~~~
npolet
This is what I've been waiting for. As a developer, I love developing on
Linux, I just flow better with it, servers are Linux as well etc...

But I do a lot of design work and this is where I miss all the Adobe apps.
I've found a good workflow with inkscape and it serves me well.

Using a Windows VM with the Adobe cc suite is fine, but it's not as clean as
having it (somewhat) natively available.

Great work Wine team.

~~~
cookiecaper
I ran Linux natively as my sole workstation OS for nearly 10 years, and spent
a lot of that time tinkering with WINE, including developing and submitting
some patches, but eventually I had to give up because advanced things like
Photoshop were too spotty in Wine and too slow in VMs.

My solution was ultimately to set up an Arch-based KVM hypervisor with a
Windows 10 VM running as the main "workstation", with USB + GPU PCI
passthrough and paravirt. The hypervisor also runs Linux VMs, from which I do
development work via VNC and/or SSH.

This is the most convenient workflow situation for me, and allows the best of
both worlds. It essentially makes Windows act like a desktop environment for a
Linux box while maintaining practically-native overall performance for all
workloads, including gaming and photo/video editing. It also grants the admin
convenience of virtualized environments, since I can use zvols to snapshot
everything at once, place clean resource limitations on each environment, etc.

It would only not work for Linux-based graphics development, but even then,
you can get a second GPU and pass it through to another VM, running on a
separate display.

Before I got the hypervisor set up, I ran Windows on the hardware with Linux
VMs hosted in VirtualBox. The biggest issue with this (aside from the general
shame and guilt of using Windows on the hardware) was that Windows would
decide it wanted to turn off for MS-enforced updates and bring everything
down. Now, Windows is separate and it can crash, reboot, or hurt itself all it
wants, and rarely causes any real loss.

~~~
eslaught
Are there instructions anywhere on how to get started with something like
this?

~~~
merb
Basically you need relativly new hardware. IOMMU is a must. (for intel)

Here is a guide from some other user: [https://github.com/saveriomiroddi/vga-
passthrough](https://github.com/saveriomiroddi/vga-passthrough) was really
helpful but I needed to give up since my mainboard was too stupid and my
graphic card didn't worked as I wanted. I could install the OS but it
bootlooped after installing any driver.

I used an asus b350-m mainboard with a AMD Ryzen 5 1500x + a radeon r9 280
(thaiti based basically the same as an hd7970) and it didn't worked since my
mainboard only had one pci express 16x which meant that the "better" card
needed to be used for the main os. You can use the first slot card for the os
but it might not always work (hardly hardware dependant). Having a good
mainboard is way more important for it to work.

~~~
willtim
This is a neat solution, but why is OVMF required (according to the guide)?

~~~
merb
well you just need an efi firmware and I guess ovmf is the only one that the
guy knew of (I actually do not now of any other aswell). if you boot qemu
without any firmware it would emulate a real mode device which probably make
it impossible to access the device correctly. (not verified or tested, since
my rig never worked). but you can install OVMF on any new linux distribution.
and you probably don't need to patch it (at least on ubuntu 17.10, fedora 27+,
arch linux...)

Edit: Arch wiki (the best) writes something about it:
[https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PCI_passthrough_via_OVM...](https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PCI_passthrough_via_OVMF#Setting_up_an_OVMF-
based_guest_VM)

> OVMF is an open-source UEFI firmware for QEMU virtual machines. While it's
> possible to use SeaBIOS to get similar results to an actual PCI passthough,
> the setup process is different and it is generally preferable to use the EFI
> method if your hardware supports it.

------
dmerrick
Grats to the Wine team!

In all my years of computers, few projects have impressed me as much as Wine.
It still feels like it shouldn't be possible, and yet, it works wonderfully.

~~~
shadowbantruth
Really? WSL works almost without any hiccups right NOW. That's not impressive?

~~~
stephen_g
Bit of a difference porting well documented APIs with multiple open source
implementations compared to a compete clean-room reverse engineering of a
closed system, quirks and all.

~~~
JdeBP
What are the multiple open source implementations of the Linux API?

~~~
kayamon
FreeBSD has one.

~~~
loeg
And illumOS / SmartOS.

------
Aardwolf
Awesome, D3D 11 support is a great milestone :)

Looking forward to version 3.11

Does it support The Sims 2 in the mean time? (all versions here are garbage
related to a 256 vertices crash:
[https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=applicatio...](https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=1942))

~~~
jamesgeck0
I'm also curious if Overwatch works in this release. I couldn't get it to
launch with Wine Staging on MacOS a few weeks ago.

~~~
shmerl
It works on Linux, but Wine on macOS can't support DX11 games, because macOS
has crippled outdated OpenGL. You should use Linux, where Wine can use OpenGL
fully, since it needs many features of OpenGL up until 4.5 to support D3D11,
and macOS is limited to 4.1 and lower only.

macOS doesn't support Vulkan either, so DX12 and Vulkan based Windows games
won't work there in Wine as well (while they can work in Wine on Linux).

TL;DR: Linux is a much better option for gaming in Wine than macOS.

~~~
TokyoKid
I think few will switch from macOS over a video game not working.

~~~
shmerl
Actually quite a lot of macOS refugees switch to Linux because of gaming
precisely. Simply because Mac hardware is underpowered, and issues like the
above with bad support in Wine because of crippled OpenGL and no Vulkan.

~~~
TokyoKid
What data is there about this? Also, underpowered how?

~~~
shmerl
There are no Macintoshes with high end GPUs as far as I know. That already
makes it underpowered in general.

And reasons for switching to Linux are from discussions with Wine users. If
you are one, you should have encountered this topic already. But I assume you
aren't using Wine for gaming, thus your question.

------
derefr
I love Wine, but I have some rather obscure apps that I'd like to run that
just refuse to run in any version of it (mainline, Crossover, Winebottler,
manually extracted copies of Cider from macOS-ported games...) As-is, I have
to run these in a Windows VM to get them to work at all.

It's a lot of hassle, especially because the least-working Windows programs
are _also_ some of the tiniest little utilities where they display maybe one
GUI screen, but also take command-line parameters. So I usually have to copy
files for them to interact with _into_ the VM, open cmd.exe to run the utility
on the files, interact with the utility GUI, then copy the files back out.
Wine would make this workflow a lot better!

What I'm wondering is: if I don't care about being a Wine "purist", and I have
a legitimate copy of Windows laying around, is there any way to _dissect_ that
copy of Windows for its files (drivers, helper executables, etc.) and wrap
them around a Windows EXE, such that Wine will be using _as few Wine
implementations of DLLs as possible_ , rather than just the minimum required
to get the individual EXE vaguely working? Is there a way to start off a Wine
install with "maximum compatibility" like this?

I really do wish there was some equivalent of Windows' WSL: a kernel-side ABI
shim for Linux/macOS that _can_ run a complete copy of Windows (minus the
kernel) inside it, including services like GDI—which you could then use an RDP
client to connect to—but where the entrypoint is running an individual EXE,
and those services are only started when clients attempt to connect to/use
them. If I can make Wine like _that_ , that'd be a dream.

Alternatively, Linux+macOS support for running Windows Docker applications,
plus support for containerizing graphical Windows applications, would largely
obviate my need for Wine.

~~~
jchw
Funny enough, when I was younger and more naive, I attempted to write a Linux
kernel implementation of Win32, starting with a PE binfmt and linker. Never
got much of interest working because I had trouble dealing with syscalls.

But I realized over time that it wasn't actually a good idea. Linux and
Windows have one hell of an impedance mismatch. Windows distributes the user-
space and kernel-space dramatically differently from Linux. The Linux VFS
layer is greatly different than the Windows filesystem layer, and related
semantics. Windows likes UTF-16 APIs, Linux likes UTF-8. They do threading
differently, Winsock is extremely broken, named pipes don't work like netlink
sockets, Windows is a little bit country, Linux is a little bit Rock'n'roll...

I'm sure someone with more experience can list off more. Even the general
ecosystems are entirely different. A lot of things on Windows are kind of
'defacto.' Like, wintab32.

At the end of the day, the hacks that Wine does to make things work are
astoundingly small compared to the massive undertaking they have
reimplementing Windows in a fashion that is useful. You could go in with the
logic of trying to be 'as Windows as possible' and use as much of the Windows
libraries as you can, but how are you going to deal with things at that level,
when Windows puts GDI and RPC in the kernel and Linux has it as userspace
daemons?

------
krylon
Lazy question:

After migrating from macOS to Linux last spring, there is one application I
still miss. It is available for Windows and macOS only.

I tried to get it work with Wine, but the installer complained about missing
.Net 4.5.1+ So I installed it, but the installer still complained.

Then I read that Wine cannot emulate Windows 7 + .Net 4.5.1; so I switched to
emulation mode to Windows Server 2003R2. Now, the installer complained about
only supporting Windows 7 or newer.

So, does anybody know if Wine 3.0 supports Windows 7 + .Net 4.5.1?

(I know, I could do the research myself. Don't bother, unless you know off the
tip of your head.)

EDIT: Almost forgot - congratulations to all the developers!!!

~~~
jklehm
.Net 4.5[1] seems to be well supported at this point. Windows 7 has partial
support[2], it really depends what pieces of the windows API are in use.

What is the name of the app?

[1][https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iI...](https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=25478)
[2][https://test.winehq.org/data/](https://test.winehq.org/data/)

~~~
krylon
Thank you very much!

The application is called SwyxIt! (the exclamation mark is part of the name).
It is a VoIP / Softphone application.

Can be found here: [https://www.swyx.de/products/support/support-
downloads.html](https://www.swyx.de/products/support/support-downloads.html)

I hope Wine 3.0 will be available on openSUSE Tumbleweed soon. Once it is, I
will give it another try.

~~~
jklehm
Couldn't find it on the AppDB but someone posted in the forums about it a year
ago:
[https://forum.winehq.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=27180](https://forum.winehq.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=27180)

~~~
krylon
Now I feel kind of bad for being too lazy to do that research myself.

Thank you very, very much!

~~~
jklehm
No worries, happy to help get people acquainted with Wine.

------
jl6
I wonder if Wine is now capable of running more Windows software than any one
version of Windows is?

~~~
pera
For everything previous to XP (and maybe even including XP) it is, without any
doubt.

It would be funny if someday Microsoft decides to include Wine with WSL, but I
wouldn't be surprised to be honest.

~~~
yorby
Windows might become a Linux distribution someday, the way it's going...

~~~
JdeBP
Very unlikely. Linux distributions are based upon Linux, and the whole
architecture of the Windows Linux Subsystem, after all, is _not having Linux
there_.

------
metalliqaz
> Wine can be built as an APK package and behaves like a proper Android
> application.

Cool.

~~~
methodin
Wait so Wine can be installed as an Android application on a phone? That's
amazing!

~~~
DennisAleynikov
I know right??? Ive been using samsung dex as my primary computer for video
editing and web design ive been craving a desktop version of some windows
programs tho haha

------
shmerl
Great progress. For the reference, DX11 based games perform much better in
Wine with Mesa / AMD, than with Nvidia blob.

~~~
leetbulb
Sorry, not too familiar with rendering API's. Do you have a reference that you
could link me to that further explains the reason for this?

~~~
shmerl
I suppose the reason is something in Nvidia blob. It's not very obvious.

------
fwdpropaganda
Out of interest, how do these people make money?

~~~
ulzeraj
As someone said it is a voluntary project but some companies make money from
it like Transgaming (now Nvidia) which works by porting games to Mac OS X. So
games like FFXIV for Mac are not native but actually a professional wine based
wrapper.

~~~
danieldk
And CodeWeavers, who were the first to reliably support Microsoft Office in
the early 2000s. [1] They used to contribute a lot back to Wine (they probably
still do). I think that Transgaming actually forked Wine before it became GPL-
licensed. IIRC they were also not really contributing much back (at least in
the Cedega times).

[1] This was a screenshot of my machine in 2004, running Microsoft Office
under Wine under NetBSD's Linux emulation:

[https://www.netbsd.org/gallery/in-Action/daniel-
cxoffice.jpg](https://www.netbsd.org/gallery/in-Action/daniel-cxoffice.jpg)

~~~
SXX
CodeWeavers state on their website it's 2/3 of the Wine commits made by their
developers and I pretty sure it's true.

At least most of complex features such as D3D11 support implemented by them.

------
sound1
Can't imagine living without wine. Right now I am coding while listening to
music on MusicBee via wine on my linux box :-)

~~~
TheSithMaster
Check out an application called 'cmus'. Very nice minimal music player on
Linux that runs from your terminal. It has support for lots of different
formats.

~~~
sound1
Thank you! Will definitely check it out.

------
jstewartmobile
This is a really wonderful piece of software.

Most Delphi and Win32 API apps run without a hitch, and developing under wine
with mingw seems to go faster than using MS Visual Studio on Windows.

~~~
marktangotango
Can you explain your workflow here? Do you cross compile to w32 on Linux and
run the resulting exe on wine? In what ways is development faster?

~~~
jstewartmobile
On linux, just use the mingw c/c++ compiler and run/debug under wine. When
it's time to run under windows, I compile under cygwin's mingw, and that
usually just works.

I'll edit later today when I get a chance and post my makefiles / compiler
opts to github.

~~~
jstewartmobile
Here is my quick-and-dirty cookbook:

[https://eggplant.pro/blog/writing-win32-applications-with-
mi...](https://eggplant.pro/blog/writing-win32-applications-with-mingw-and-
wine/)

If you need clarifications, just post a comment there.

As for faster, VS2017 takes _minutes_ to load on my machine (which is fairly
beefy BTW). Even back when VS was fast, I could still work faster with the old
userland progs like vim, grep, make, etc...

------
dchess
Does anyone know if this will support running SQL Server Management Studio?
That's the only thing keeping me using Linux in a VM instead of as my main.

~~~
_JamesA_
You could of course switch it up and use Windows in a VM and Linux as your
main.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
What license allows home users to use a virtualized MS Windows, do they allow
it?

~~~
_JamesA_
IANAL but the Microsoft License Terms for OEM Windows 10 [1] says yes:

2\. Installation and Use Rights.

b. Device. In this agreement, “device” means a hardware system (whether
physical or virtual) with an internal storage device capable of running the
software. A hardware partition or blade is considered to be a device.

d. Multi use scenarios.

(iv) Use in a virtualized environment. This license allows you to install only
one instance of the software for use on one device, whether that device is
physical or virtual. If you want to use the software on more than one virtual
device, you must obtain a separate license for each instance.

[1]: [https://www.microsoft.com/en-
us/Useterms/OEM/Windows/10/Uset...](https://www.microsoft.com/en-
us/Useterms/OEM/Windows/10/Useterms_OEM_Windows_10_English.htm)

------
CorpOverreach
This really tempts me to go back to Linux as my "daily driver".

My main issue is working from home, and connecting to my work's VPN. We use
Pulse Secure, and it does a host scan that only works on Windows and Mac OS X.

Has anyone had any experience with getting Pulse Secure running under Wine and
having it trick a corporate VPN host-checker that it is indeed a compliant
version of Windows?

~~~
616c
I believe openconnect handles Pulse, which is a Juniper SSL VPN? If so, use it
and fake the check script.

Google openconnect infradead. I used AnyConnect at work (it does support both,
despite name) but didn't have to use this feature.

~~~
Rondom
I have successfully used OpenConnect to replace PulseSecure. Depending on the
server configuration, you might need to change the user agent to Windows and
have a fake-host-checker-script. The Linux version of Pulse Secure requires
your administrator to configure linux as "supported" on the server-side which
is often not the case, which makes it pretty much worthless.

One thing I noticed is that the network-manager-plugin will disconnect you
when changing networks, while the command-line-version reconnects without a
need to re-authenticate.

In another instance, I used a windows host with Win32-OpenSSH. I used a
proxy.pac script for web browsing and for SSHing I tunnelled using the
ProxyJump option. You could also configure your Windows VM to act as a router
and set the routes in the Linux host to go to the VM.

------
yeasayer
Does it include patches from wine-staging (CSMT)?

~~~
shmerl
It includes some csmt work, but it might not be the same as staging one. You
need to enable it through registry key.

See
[https://wiki.winehq.org/Useful_Registry_Keys](https://wiki.winehq.org/Useful_Registry_Keys)

HKEY_CURRENT_USER

    
    
        +-Software
           |
            +-Wine
                  |
                  +-Direct3D
                  |  |
                  |  +->csmt
                  |  |   [DWORD Value (REG_DWORD): Enable (0x1) or disable (0x0, default) the multi-threaded
                  |  |    command stream feature. This serialises rendering commands from different threads into
                  |  |    a single rendering thread, in order to avoid the excessive glFlush()'es that would otherwise
                  |  |    be required for correct rendering. This deprecates the "StrictDrawOrdering" setting.
                  |  |    Introduced in wine-2.6.]

------
ww520
Wine is one of those amazing software. Kudos for a new release.

------
ChuckMcM
I wonder if I could get Dark Reign running on this ...

~~~
Ascetik
Excellent game. It was ahead of it's time.

------
pingec
Does anyone know if Office 2016 is supported?

~~~
jamiesonbecker
Codeweaver's Crossover says Office 2016 "runs well":

[https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/microsof...](https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/microsoft-
office-2016)

(Codeweaver's contributes perhaps the majority of code to Wine 3.0, so Wine
3.0 will also run it well, but they have a terrific product because they allow
you to essentially sandbox each Windows app into a different wine "bottle"
container with different settings for each, and by providing default settings
and switches for most major apps.)

~~~
e12e
Interesting. Just today, I decided I'd had enough of outlook 365 Web client.
Maybe I'll give outlook 2016 and wine 3.0 a try - before I fall back to plain
imap etc at work.

~~~
jamiesonbecker
Don't know if Outlook works. That part was the one part of Office that always
caused me issues in Wine (but, frankly, I haven't tried it in years). Word,
Excel, PPT -- all worked great otherwise. (small tip: if I disabled
compositing in my window manager, then the translucent selection drag box in
PPT turned black, making it impossible to see what I was selecting.)

Also, there's a very simple extension for OWA in the chrome app store; it just
tricks OWA into thinking you're running Chrome on Windows instead of Linux
(where microsoft subjects you to the ancient version instead). I know the
author pretty well ;) However, I haven't been forced into running OWA or
connecting to Exchange at all, so it might have bitrotted or not be needed
anymore:

[https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/owa-user-
agent/bbc...](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/owa-user-
agent/bbcokcplpnehgcfgjbpaecnmaedpjifo?hl=en)

------
DesiLurker
I wonder how well Wine work on WSL on windows..

~~~
Rondom
Wine also runs on Windows (Not sure how stable it is given that it is not the
main focus)

------
qubex
Does anybody know whether I can run the SAPGUI (win32, not crappily-maintained
java version) yet?

~~~
qubex
Self-reply for anybody interested: basically the same sucky experience as
before.

------
yodsanklai
Last time I tried wine was something like 15-20 years ago. I thought it was a
great project but that they would never be able to get it right. Is it working
well now?

In any case, congratulations to the developers for their work.

~~~
RaleyField
Decent considering the magnitude of the needed effort. I use it to
occasionally play Age of Empires 2 on Steam running over Wine. It is playable,
but has still some bugs. For example embedded browser doesn't work with Steam
and there's this years old bug, for which there is a patch that is ignored by
mainline, that makes your view scroll sideways.

------
brightball
How well does it work with iTunes for Windows?

I switched from OSX to Linux over the past year and being unable to play music
I bought from iTunes BEFORE they removed the DRM is my biggest pain point.

~~~
alexkadis
If you can borrow a computer with iTunes on it, you can replace the DRM files
with MP3 versions. [https://www.wikihow.com/Convert-Protected-Audio-Into-a-
Plain...](https://www.wikihow.com/Convert-Protected-Audio-Into-a-Plain-MP3)

Hope that helps.

~~~
brightball
Actually tried that and even then those songs re-download with the DRM on
them. For some reason there is this window of time when songs were purchased
where they won't allow the DRM to be removed. And Apple got the extra $25 from
me.

My best option is probably to sit down and put this sleeve of old blank CDs to
good use and burn all the songs so that I can re-rip them as MP3. It's just
irritating.

Wouldn't bother me so much if it didn't happen to include the music that I
code to (First Iron Man sound track. Consistent paced instrumentals that all
seem to flow well together.)

~~~
recentdarkness
Why would you even bother burning them when the iso will be just fine? Also I
am pretty sure some ffmpeg can probably do the conversation

~~~
brightball
Fair point....

------
gchokov
Can I finally play Heroes 3 on my mac? :) Will be tried tonight.

~~~
fnovd
Heroes 3 has been working on Wine for years, when was the last time you tried?

~~~
wincy
I feel like the last time I tried it wanted me to install some things and
there were some errors on Mac? I don't totally remember though, but it wasn't
smooth sailing last year or so.

~~~
gchokov
Yes, same. But I tried maybe 2 years ago.

------
tfcata
Does anyone know if SonicStage works on Wine? It's an ancient piece of
proprietary software from Sony to transfer songs to their NetMDs.

~~~
LeoPanthera
Hasn't been tested for a while, but when it was last tested, no, didn't work.

[https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iI...](https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=6911&iTestingId=20249)

------
digitalsanctum
I'm curious what the majority of use cases are these days for using Wine over
virtualization, containers or something like AWS workspaces?

~~~
bigbugbag
foobar2000 as there is no good audio player on linux, also gaming, old windows
apps, photoshop, ...

~~~
shmerl
_> there is no good audio player on linux_

Practically nothing beats mpv IMHO as a general purpose media player, with VLC
being second best.

I can do this:

    
    
        mpv https://danielamosboots.bandcamp.com/track/triangle-square

~~~
brightball
SMPlayer is pretty solid

------
stevefan1999
I wonder how did Wine managed to convery HLSL into GLSL. Although Valve did
make a proof of concept of this shader converter called togl.

------
orionblastar
I can't wait to try it. I also assume the next version of Reactos will use
this code to run more Windows apps?

------
fwdpropaganda
Anyway care to discuss Wine vs VirtualBox? I've been playing with Photshop in
VirtualBox lately, and it's really slow.

~~~
computerex
They are not even remotely the same thing. WINE is a compatibility layer that
translates the Win32 API calls into POSIX equivalent. VirtualBox is
virtualization where the whole OS is being virtualized.

~~~
BugsJustFindMe
The OS isn't being virtualized in VirtualBox, the hardware is. VirtualBox
pretends to be a second computer inside your computer, but that second
computer still needs its own real copy of an operating system.

~~~
computerex
My bad, you are right.

------
alimbada
Was there really that much demand for Wine to be ported to Android?

------
westurner
Hopefully this fixes the text in the GMAT Prep app.

------
Kenji
Go Wine! <3 Thanks to everyone involved with this project.

------
hitekker
Did they fix the default menus looking like their counterparts in Windows 95?

~~~
reificator
To be fair, Microsoft has yet to remove all the Windows 95 style design. The
Windows 10 installer has at least 3 different eras of design visible at once.

~~~
randomString1
[https://i.imgur.com/7CFGXdH.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/7CFGXdH.jpg)

[https://i.imgur.com/xBwNucW.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/xBwNucW.jpg)

[https://i.imgur.com/I5nrep9.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/I5nrep9.jpg)

