
Ask HN: How to deal with seasonal affective disorder? - Jefro118
Every winter for probably the last 10 years or so I&#x27;ve run into a difficult pattern of mood, fatigue and concentration, depression I suppose, around this time of year.<p>I think this is not so uncommon, so I&#x27;d love to hear from anyone on HN who&#x27;s found particularly effective ways of dealing with this and keeping life on track over the winter. My goal is not to be happy but simply to be stable enough that I can maintain regular productivity.<p>Here&#x27;s what I&#x27;ve tried:<p>1. Light therapy - easy and somewhat effective, but not super effective<p>2. Vitamin D supplements - no real difference noticed<p>3. Vigorous aerobic exercise 3-4 times a week - moderately effective, not super effective<p>4. Meditation every morning - recent habit, seems to be helping but it&#x27;s too early to say<p>5. Cutting down sugar - somewhat effective when I  stick to it, often undisciplined<p>6. Cutting down carbs - same as above<p>7. SSRIs - haven&#x27;t used for 5 years, don&#x27;t think they were really working when I did<p>8. Skipping breakfast - recent habit, seems to help, too early to tell<p>9. Psychodynamic therapy - for 2 years, never seemed to help in the moment, but maybe did over the time period<p>10. Microdosing psilocybin - reasonably helpful but can&#x27;t do it every day<p>11. Modafinil - reasonably effective while on it, but it fucks with sleep; ceased use<p>Here&#x27;s what I haven&#x27;t tried that could be helpful:<p>1. CBT<p>2. Mediterranean diet<p>3. Moving to a warm country (not possible right now)<p>4. Sleeping for longer (&gt; 9 hours)<p>5. Other antidepressants<p>6. Keto diet<p>7. Weightlifting &#x2F; anaerobic exercise<p>8. Other supplements<p>9. Other types of therapy<p>10. Longer term meditation habit<p>11. Philosophy &#x2F; self-reflection<p>Has anyone tried something from the second list that was particularly helpful? Anyone figured out a way to overcome this (or just depression&#x2F;cognitive decline in general)?
======
greenyouse
I'm not sure if life hacks and self-psych will make any major impacts on SAD.
If you feel down it never hurts to get a mental health consult. I'm from
Minnesota so here's more or less how I would deal with winter, ymmv. This list
is kind of light-hearted so I hope I'm not offending. Winter is my favorite
season so maybe this won't connect very well.

Read lots of books and watch shows to stay away from the gray outside.

Stay in office environments during the day to benefit from florescent
lighting.

Take up outdoors activities like skiing, broomball, or hockey (I think it
develops a positive association with the winter weather). Otherwise curling is
indoor so maybe that would help distract from the weather. Adding friends and
beer to all of these events makes them more fun of course.

Feel free to eat heavier foods like cheese curds and pasta. They make you feel
good and nobody can tell that you gained 10lbs because you have heavy winter
clothes anyway.

Take comfort in talking to strangers and coworkers about how bad the weather
is.

Look at the ground during the winter so you don't see the ugly, gray skies.
The cold windchill usually forces this anyway.

------
tonyarkles
You mentioned SSRIs. I’m not usually one that’s all that happy about
pharmaceuticals, but I started Bupropion today for smoking cessation, and
while I was doing research I remember it being mentioned as a potential SAD
treatment. It’s a norepinephrine-dopamine reuptake inhibitor (NRDI) instead of
an SSRI. Might be worth looking into, given the list of things that haven’t
worked.

[https://www.aafp.org/afp/2017/0101/p10.html](https://www.aafp.org/afp/2017/0101/p10.html)

~~~
Jefro118
Thanks, I'll look into that

------
neuroticfish
Regarding your list of things you haven't tried, you should certainly try 2 or
6 and 7 before bothering with the other potential solutions (if you're able).
Your diet and your exercise habits are going to be play the biggest role in
your physical and mental well-being. I would not bother with supplements. The
general efficacy of supplements is debated and you should be getting all of
the nutrients you need from your diet anyway. If you're not able to try diet
and exercise changes due to depression symptoms you should consider 9 (and 5
at the doctor's discretion).

Sleep is important but you should only be sleeping for as long as your body
needs it. Going to bed earlier can help you find the point at which you're
waking up naturally and from there you can decide how much time you need to
sleep.

Philosophy and self-reflection are really two very different things. Studying
philosophy in my experience hasn't improved my mood. Reading and learning in
general might, and you might find that reading about philosophy is a passion
you didn't know you had, but you aren't going to pick up a philosophy book and
just internalize a worldview that will cure your depression. Self-reflection
on the other hand will also not cure your depression, but it may help you
identify the deeper triggers in your SAD that you could potentially address.
What if your depression is not triggered by the temperature? Your problem
would likely not be solved by moving to a warmer country.

------
brailsafe
I think this is a problem for a lot of people in various climates. I'm from
central Canada where we experience -50c Januaries and 6 months of snow. Step 1
was moving the fuck out of there, which helped. I've been back, but knowing
It's optional is massive.

The problem I've faced for 4 years is the rain on the west coast, and the way
I manage that is shifting to a different social mode, combining that with
intense exercise, and having something that I find compelling intellectually
to do. I'm normally a skateboarder, which is impeded by the rain, but I can
still find larking garages or indoor places to do that. Partying with friends
is great. Wet hiking is fun. If you're not enjoying your life normally, winter
hits hard, so work on making your joy more robust. I'd recommend not bothering
with any of the hacks on your list aside from lifestyle changes, because
they'll probably prolong your ability to omprove your baseline joy quality.

------
karmakaze
I'm affected to a lesser degree by SAD just noticing the changes but not
really affected for another month or so.

Related to the fasting/microbiome advice is active oral hygiene. My main
problem with SAD is lack of motivation/energy to care to do anything which can
happen in any month but is especially bad during the winter. For non-SAD
reasons I've taken my personal war on plaque seriously, brushing three or more
times a day with an super-soft brush (Colgate SlimSoft 2-packs on sale) to
save gums, mouthwash, etc. What I've found is that I sleep better and it's 5x
(subjectively) easier to wake up at the set time and have energy/motivation to
start my day. Since this behaviour is new this year I have yet to see how it
does through the winter.

~~~
Jefro118
Wow, I'd never heard of this. Going to look more into this thanks!

------
Arete314159
I moved from Seattle to Austin and I no longer had seasonal affective disorder
in the fall and winter.

However, I did get a little depressed in August, because that's when you
realize that summer began 4 months ago, and there's still 2.5 months of 100
degree days to go.

Depending on how far north you are and how cloudy, going outside in nature
might be beneficial. For me I find that being in a city when it's dark is
super depressing, but if I give my body some contextual clues -- the look and
smell of autumn leaves, eating autumn food, etc. -- it can help. Then my brain
puts the darkness into "circle of life" category a bit more instead of "the
light is fading and with it comes death!"

That said, I think that would not work for me in Seattle. It's too dark and
too overcast. But has worked for me a bit better in southern New England.

------
sethammons
Did you do 1-6 at the same time? Consider adding 'time spent outside.' What
social things have you tried? People need to have close relationships with
other people. Def look into weight training and avoiding processed foods.
Avoid or highly limit alcohol and pot (if you partake in either). Assuming you
live in a northern territory with hard winters, try a winter in the south
(maybe SoCal, Arizona, or Texas).

~~~
Jefro118
No, I haven't been consistent or disciplined enough with diet stuff or getting
out and socialising even when I don't feel like it, so that's the first thing
to change this Winter.

I live in the UK, so it would be more like moving to Southern Europe, which I
can't really do at least in the next couple of months.

~~~
agent008t
The weather has been particularly shite the last 3 weeks or so, hasn't it?

I would suggest booking a trip somewhere warm and sunny, even if it is for Jan
or Feb. Having something to look forward to makes things better.

------
gpsx
I’m not sure what kind of light therapy you did. I would recommend trying a
tanning salon. Try to find beds with high UVB (the “bad” kind). This is better
fir getting vitamin D. And they are the cheap beds too. You do t need to stay
in long enough to get much of a tan. I feel better after a single session. I
do 1 or two short sessions a week.

However, I also crave regular light. So me assumption is that visible light
serves a purpose also.

~~~
rswail
Just as a matter of safety, UV tanning is a great way to get melanomas. That's
why they've been banned (commercially) in Australia.

~~~
gpsx
I'm not sure it is worse than getting the same amount of UV from the Sun. But,
when I go to a tanning salon, I do see some people who overdue it. I would
agree that is bad.

------
JamesBarney
Elizer Yudkowksi(sp?)'s wife had SAD they were having problems treating. He
talks about it here

[https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/yPLr2tnXbiFXkMWvk/an-
equilib...](https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/yPLr2tnXbiFXkMWvk/an-equilibrium-
of-no-free-energy)

He says basically they just kept on increasing the amount of light therapy and
eventually it cured her SAD.

~~~
Jefro118
Ah, I have indeed read this - thank you for reminding me. I tried
unsuccessfully to do this two years ago. Worth a try in my new accommodation
which might be more accommodating.

There is a separate post from his wife here btw -
[http://agentyduck.blogspot.com/2014/09/my-experiences-
with-s...](http://agentyduck.blogspot.com/2014/09/my-experiences-with-sad-
interventions.html)

Potentially helpful to others reading this.

~~~
JamesBarney
Thanks for the link, I hadn't read it from her perspective.

------
karmakaze
What are people's experience with types of indoor lighting?

I know that you can't really get any vitamin D through glass but much prefer
any kind of natural light over fluorescent. Other things I do is adjust the
color of my monitor to emit less blue light (even during daytime ours) which
seems to help. I even use ComfortView (less blue) on my phone 24x7.

------
ryansouza
Get your Vitamin D levels checked? Higher dosage?

~~~
abdullahkhalids
Agreed. When I did my research on this, I found the recommended amounts are
far lower than what is required for someone living near the poles. And
dangerous levels are also very very high, so there is no risk in doubling or
tripling the amount of the recommended dosage and seeing if it helps.

------
DoreenMichele
No first-hand experience with SAD, but a few thoughts:

1\. Perhaps the change in season promotes some secondary issue, like more mold
growth, and that's the real problem that needs to be addressed.

2\. One of the better tools for self experiments is a journal. Try to track
diet, symptoms and anything else that might come into play.

3\. Fasting seems helpful with a variety of issues.

~~~
Jefro118
Thanks. You're correct, I should learn from Gwern and run these kind of self
experiments properly. Will at least do a better job of journalling this year.
I did this with microdosing and it was quite helpful.

Have you tried fasting specifically for SAD or otherwise depression?

~~~
DoreenMichele
I do not appear to be prone to either SAD or depression.

But my general understanding is that a. Fasting impacts the microbiome and b.
The microbiome is increasingly being shown to impact the microbiome.

------
efiecho
When this kicks in, I get an urge to eat a large amount of high caloric foods
including desserts and to sleep for many many hours. If I comply with this,
the situation is manageable. When summer and heat returns, I loses interest in
food and will automatically drop the extra weight gained during winter.

~~~
Jefro118
I have this too. Are you saying you feel better when you _do_ eat the high
caloric/sweet foods?

~~~
efiecho
Yes, much better. I have tried not eating high caloric/sweet foods to be more
healthy, but then the winter months just became pure hell. If I eat the food,
I'm able to get things done and be functional.

~~~
karmakaze
The high carbs work for me too but sweet/sugary foods just makes me hungry so
fast that I can't concentrate for long before I'm distracted by it.

------
jitendrac
I would advise you to go for a small vacation to place like india and brazil
during that time. Sometimes relocating works best, If the seasonal disorder
affectz life. This is my one cent.

------
blain_the_train
You should pick up one of the many books on this topic if you haven't.

From what I have read, the only thing specifically you can do is light
therapy. Buy a light specific for this.

Moving obviously has the biggest impact.

------
dhruvkar
Weightlifting, microdosing shrooms.and light therapy.

Never tried them all at the same time, but these three things at different
phases in life, were effective, for at least one season.

------
cmclaughlin
It gets me too. I’ve found embracing the change with seasonal foods helpful.
Buying produce from my local farmers market helps build some excitement and
anticipation.

------
gesman
Moved to California.

Used to live in Canada (eastern ontario) and this became intolerable.

Living in shitty weather conditions and trying to compensate with artifical
means never really worked for me.

~~~
Jefro118
Did it completely disappear once you moved?

------
dustingetz
exercise went from kind of works to OMG when i hit 30+ miles per week -
suddenly running was easy, effortless and amazing natural high

obviously 9 miles per week is better than zero

------
solresol
Move to Australia. In most cities SAD is so rare that people aren't even aware
that it is a thing.

------
d-sc
Get some outside time. Pets (dogs, cows, etc) are good for this as they force
you to attend to them.

------
chewz
Spend every winter in Thailand or some other sunny place. Worked for me for 10
years..

------
superflit
You know the real solution is #3.

But at the same time you know there is a price.

------
jofke
How about SAM-e?

------
jmpman
Move?

~~~
johncla99
I spend week-long visits at a remote cabin in the Central Cascades. During the
winter I have to get outside and get some significant exercise every day.
Outside. Exercise. Every day. Or I will go crazy. That's it. Think of the
trappers who spent all winter in cabins in the mountains. Outside. Exercise.
Every day.

