
Serious Sam 3 Developer: "Gabe Newell did not Overreact on Windows 8" - vetler
http://www.ubuntuvibes.com/2012/11/serious-sam-3-developer-alen-ladavac.html
======
powertower
> So, it is a vicious circle. And not an accidental one. This one was
> carefully designed to be that way.

It's quite simple...

Metro - for consumers. Mostly for touch-based tablets. Internet, Facebook,
Twitter, simple games and apps.

Desktop - for producers. Keyboard and PC (everything from a $600 Dell to a
powerful $5000 WorkStation). Large games, VS.NET, Office, etc. And also
everthing to do with the non-consumer/enterprise market.

Do you have any idea how many situations, work-flows, and applications NEED
the desktop?

Microsoft is not getting rid of the Desktop. The Desktop is here to stay. In
Windows 8, in 9, and every other version. Including the Server versions.

Half of their revenues depend on the Desktop situations, work-flows, and
applications.

They'll get rid of the Desktop when computers start reading your thoughts or
everyone in the world becomes a thoughtless consumer that spends his/her
entire time buying useless crap (like in the move Idiocracy).

~~~
icebraining
But the point is that games are sold to consumers, and if they only have
Metro, you're forced to go through the Store. Whether the developers will have
access to Desktop is mostly irrelevant to his argument.

~~~
powertower
You mean ... if they only have a lower powered ARM device, with Windows RT,
they are forced to go through the store... Or if they can't figure out how to
get to the Desktop with their Windows 8 device by clicking an icon/tile.

At some point you're going to have to make a choice whether you need a
Desktop/PC, a tablet with Windows 8, or a tablet with Windows RT for whatever
it is you need Windows for.

~~~
crististm
who says I _need_ to make a choice?

~~~
powertower
You make a choice when you buy a car, a phone, sign up to some service, order
off a menu, etc.

------
AJ007
I used a Windows Surface tablet a few days ago. It was clearly underpowered,
but was far better than I expected. For the first time in years I thought,
Microsoft may actually survive this mobile thing.

Windows has a massive selection of software. Their top priority should have
been to make it as easy as possible for those legacy developers to add any
level of metro support and integration to their existing applications.

Instead they chose to handicap themselves, as if they were producing a brand
new operating system. Was the tradeoff of taking a cut of all software sales
worth the effective action of starting with a software library the size of
webOS's?

~~~
colmvp
"I used a Windows Surface tablet a few days ago. It was clearly underpowered,
but was far better than I expected. For the first time in years I thought,
Microsoft may actually survive this mobile thing."

Same. I thought the flat interface was slick. Gestures on the edges of the
tablet were smart. Keyboard selections (soft and hard thicker keys) were a
nice features. Only thing I didn't appreciate were some of the Windows
salespeople trying to convince me my gripes were unjustified. I typed faster
than the keys were registered and he said it was because my stance was tense
and I needed to relax.

~~~
pyre
When you buy it, there's an instructional DVD that helps you practice the
correct stance for your Windows Phone. You'll get the hang of it after 2 or 3
20-minute sessions, though it might take a while to master it completely.

~~~
jlgreco
Is this serious? How does stance actually have an effect on keypress
recognition speed?

~~~
stcredzero
A tablet that can read your stance will probably be the next big thing.

~~~
pyre
While the technology to detect stance would probably be interesting, I don't
see the functionality as being good for general usage. Using your stance as
some way of gestering the system seems really inconvenient. That said, there
are probably a lot of niche uses for such hardware.

In other words, sounds like something that would be more useful to be hooked
into via API be app developers, but doesn't sound like it would solve any
general OS usage issues.

~~~
stcredzero
Good point. There was no chance I was being sarcastic. Good catch.

------
megaman821
So Gabe Newell did not overreact on Windows 8... because of what Microsoft
might do in Windows 9.

That said, Steam right now is more of an open platform that the Microsoft App
Store. Even if Microsoft put up big, scary warnings, they really should allow
the side-loading of Metro apps or have a Control Panel option to allow for
their installation.

~~~
lini
You can sideload store apps in Windows 8 relatively easy. What you need is the
.appx file for the app and powershell. Using the PS prompt you can sign up for
a developer license (free, renewed each month) and deploy the .appx file
containing the app. No store updates this way, but the app appears on the
start menu and works normally.

Microsoft even provides a PowerShell script that automates this installation
each time you build a Windows Store app in Visual Studio along with the .appx
file.

~~~
gergles
> you can sign up for a developer license (free, renewed each month)

Great, my OS is now timebombed to permit me to only install what I want on it
at Microsoft's pleasure.

How on earth is this "easy" compared to "compile it and you can run it
forever" like Windows has been since Windows existed?

(Also: what happens when Windows 8 support is "sunset"? You just can't use
that computer anymore? Jeez.)

~~~
RyJones
We had a team prepare for a demo on WinRT tablets in the US. They went
overseas to do the demo - license expired in route. No connectivity; couldn't
VPN in due to no WinRT VPN client, had to drop that part of the demo. Huge
pain, no gain.

------
ltcoleman
Microsoft is just doing what is profitable. I cannot blame them for this.
Apple has already proven that this model works quite well. I HIGHLY doubt
Microsoft will completely abandon the desktop experience in Windows 9. I also
doubt that Apple will force everybody to only use the MAC app store in future
OSX releases.

I do believe the gaming landscape is changing and maybe that means Linux is
the winner for the next generation of awesome computer gaming titles.

Nevertheless, Microsoft is a company that is in the business in making money,
and they are making a huge push for their new platform which is mimicking the
most successful company in the world... Seems like they are making good
decisions.

------
hhudolet
But why is that a problem? You can install everything on Win8 classic (non-
RT). Tablet version Win8RT is closed platform and marketplace, just like iOS
Store, but desktop users can use Win8 like they're using all other win
versions till now!

This whole 'marketplace' story is bad because

\- it's not true. Steam is same thing like win store, or apple store (IMHO).
Just money will now go to MS, not to Valve

\- news portal editors should explain readers that you can install classic
apps to Win8 (Pro), but Metro apps must go through Store. So, on PC+Win8 you
can install everything.

\- MS PR is responsible for this also, they should educate ppl more about this
RT/Classic mess

~~~
vlasta2
You cannot really compare Windows Store with Steam. There is no Steam-only OS
with a name that evokes that it is a successor to Windows 7.

How many non-programmers actually recognize the difference between full
Windows 8 and Windows RT? They are both Windows, right? They are both new. Who
cares about the details... until it is too late.

Windows RT is not really Windows in the sense it was understood in the past
decades. It is a real disaster for every conscious Windows developer.

~~~
OriginalSyn
> How many non-programmers actually recognize the difference between full
> Windows 8 and Windows RT?

Programmers are not immune to the confusion, I've had to explain the
difference to multiple coworkers.

------
simbyotic
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, and given the amount of high-profile
backclash against Windows 8's policies I might, but the 'problem' seems to be
that in order to use the Windows 8 tiles you have to sell your program through
Windows Store, right?

In what way is it any different than selling an app through the Apple Store?
If you want to add the extra functionality, you have to sell it through the
Windows store, but no one is forcing you to use it in order for you costumers
to use your program (lets face it, your games probably dont need the tiles)
and if you do so choose to use their store, it isn't forcing you to remain
exclusive to that store, you can sell it anywhere you want.

Right? If so, what is the fuss about?

~~~
Apocryphon
OS X doesn't mandate that you sell software through the Apple Store.

~~~
v21
Although increasingly you have to sign your apps (and thus be a registered
Apple developer), or else teach end users to disable Gatekeeper.

------
stcredzero
I wonder if now isn't the time for a billionaire to start backing something
akin to Ubuntu but based on a Windows clone like ReactOS? The goal would be to
capture a user base that's disenchanted with the Windows 8 direction and just
wants to hold onto the Windows 7 experience? One could even base this on WINE
and Linux with the plentiful open source programs for Windows and some tweaks
to automate installation of things like MS Office.

~~~
jccodez
I use classic shell with win8. It gives me everything I was use to and I can
boot to desktop mode. I think they will bring back some of what they took out
in order to cater to businesses. They know businesses will not touch win8 as
is and need to reincorporate what was removed during the refactor of win8.
There is still support for god mode as well

~~~
stcredzero
The above would also be free and FOSS. A desktop OS that can run Microsoft
Office just fine could be a compelling competitor.

------
cincinnatus
Disappointing to see such FUD in today's landscape. What MS is doing is in
almost every way an improvement for the vast majority of the population.

~~~
jlgreco
To be clear, are you saying that he is wrong, or that what he thinks is not
important?

------
emehrkay
Wait, he says that you cannot download an application from the internet and
run it on your computer, but earlier says that you simply cannot add non-app
store apps to the Metro tiled interface. Which one is it? I would assume that
you can still install applications from the internet (non-app store), and I'm
certain that you can have tiles for those apps. What exactly is the problem?

------
goggles99
So don't use the Metro interface then... Sheesh

Microsoft set things up this way because they want the Surface and Win8 metro
to be similar.

------
socialist_coder
Is this even a big deal? Who is gonna stay in the Metro UI mode other than
senior citizens and people who only play Solitaire and web games?

~~~
trotsky
the people who don't have a keyboard attached at the moment.

~~~
DGCA
What? Why? If Steam releases touch games then just throw the steam icon on
your desktop and launch it. If you don't have touch games then you wouldn't be
playing without a keyboard and mouse.

~~~
abrahamsen
Lots of Steam games play well, sometimes even best, with a game controller.

The UI formerly known as Metro also seems that it would work reasonably well,
at least better than WIMP, with a controller. Have anyone tried to plug in a
controller to Surface, and see if it works?

