
GPU Hoarding: ‘I Felt Like I Was Buying Drugs’ - uptown
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-computer-part-people-are-hoarding-i-felt-like-i-was-buying-drugs-1518195876
======
Animats
NVidia has announced they don't want to chase the mining market. They're
worried that they'd build up capacity and the mining market would go bust.[1]
But they may have to. High-end NVidia cards have doubled in price. The gaming
industry is unhappy. Gamers are unhappy. NVidia is looking at a "mining
version" of their next card so they can still sell to graphics users.[2]

[1] [https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/cryptocurrency-
minin...](https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/cryptocurrency-mining-
graphics-card-prices/) [2] [https://www.tweaktown.com/news/60839/nvidia-
unveil-mining-sp...](https://www.tweaktown.com/news/60839/nvidia-unveil-
mining-specific-geforce-gtx-2080-cards/index.html)

~~~
mv4
NVIDIA may be publicly saying that, but I am sure they are absolutely thrilled
with the way sales (and margins) have been growing. And it wasn't gaming, AI,
or autonomous cars - it's mining.

The gamer problem is exaggerated. While GPUs are definitely hard to buy in
quantities > 1, and the prices are definitely much higher than 6 months ago -
pre-built gaming machines (Alienware, Lenovo Cube, iBuyPower, etc) are still
affordable. It's almost absurd seeing how these computers are now sold for
less than the sum of the parts (especially the RAM and the GPU).

So, one thing has definitely changed for gamers - it's actually much cheaper
now to buy a whole gaming PC than to build one. So much so that "crypto
enthusiasts" now buy these machines, swap out the GPUs for low-end versions,
then put them on eBay.

~~~
criley2
The gamer problem is not being exaggerated. Price per $ has literally
decreased over the last 3 years.

I'm not being hyperbolic, $300 in 2015 buys you a better graphics card than
$300 in 2018.

In normal times, a $300 card in 2015 costs $150-180 in 2018. It's easy to then
see that the 2018 $300 card much be generations further.

However, today, a nVidia GTX 1060 will run you around $350 if you can find one
in stock, and its performance per dollar is literally inferior to say an AMD
R9 390 from 2015, which could be found under $300.

Very rarely in tech do we exist in a market where 3 years ago performance
costs more today than it did then.

Would you be okay paying $600 or $700 for an iPhone6 or LG G3? It's shocking
to us when years and years go by and your dollar doesn't change what you get.

~~~
tormeh
You might want to proofread your writing a bit.

~~~
criley2
I read it over once before I submitted. I re-read it and give myself an A. Are
we pedantically arguing over a comma splice here, or do you have constructive
criticism for my writing?

------
paulmd
The good news is Bitmain is rumored to be launching an Ethereum ASIC - 25x as
fast as an RX 570 at 4x the efficiency (650 MH/s at 750W). Those are going to
push gaming GPUs out of the ethereum market. Prices are going to come down
quickly just like the last time ASICs hit the market.

(Ethereum is ASIC- _resistant_ , meaning any ASIC needs to look a lot like a
GPU in terms of a powerful memory subsystem, which is much more difficult to
optimize. It has never been impossible to improve the efficiency of the
processing side of things - after all, a GPU is a kind of ASIC. You can think
of these as Ethereum-optimized GPUs. The fact that these ASICs are only 4x as
efficient as a general-purpose GPU says that the ASIC-resistance is actually
working, in comparison the first Bitcoin ASICs were thousands of times as
efficient as GPUs.)

~~~
mv4
I think Ethereum is just one of the many cryptocurrencies that are being mined
with GPUs right now - so if this rumor is true, I don't expect it to have the
same impact that ASICs had on Bitcoin mining.

~~~
paulmd
Ethereum makes up the overwhelming majority of the hash power across all the
networks (I'd guess about 75% of the total). If those GPUs go looking for
other things to mine, they will crush the difficulty on the remaining networks
and profit will go to zero.

Many chinese miners are using electricity that's nearly or actually free, they
will keep trying to recoup their investment even if it sends small miners into
the red.

On top of that, most Ethereum people are mining using AMD GPUs - and AMD GPUs
have garbage efficiency at all the other coins. Ethash is literally the only
one they do with reasonable efficiency, NVIDIA is ~2x more efficient at
everything else.

[https://i.imgur.com/2u2HOw7.png](https://i.imgur.com/2u2HOw7.png)

(numbers from WhatToMine.com and include undervolting for all cards, and BIOS
mods for AMD cards)

~~~
mv4
If I am reading your chart correctly - the 1080 is also very inefficient at
Ethash?

~~~
paulmd
Correct. The 1080 uses GDDR5X, which is quad-pumped and delivers chunks of RAM
that are twice as big as Ethereum uses. This works fine for graphics, and for
many other coins, but on Ethereum half of the bandwidth is wasted.

(bandwidth consumption is what makes Ethash memory-hard/ASIC-resistant - same
principle as the tuning parameters on bcrypt/scrypt, designed to make it
difficult for an attacker to scale their processing)

The 1070 Ti is basically a 1080 with GDDR5 (dual-pumped) instead of 5X (and
minus one SM), and does much better, along with the 1070. The 1080 Ti has
enough bandwidth to brute-force it even throwing half of it away.

------
seiferteric
I bought a GTX1080 founders edition a few weeks after it came out over a year
ago, after I was finally able to find one at best buy (of all places). I felt
bad for spending all that money. I am seeing now they are selling used on ebay
for more than I bought it for new. I can't remember a time in computer history
where this has happened.

~~~
Declanomous
That definitely happened with GPUs back when bitcoin could be mined with GPUs.
That also has happened with RAM recently as well.

Also, after a while certain enterprise hardware ends up being worth a fortune
as desperate IT guys try to buy stuff as spares for a critical system that
haven't been upgraded for whatever reason.

Then there's stuff like Raspberry Pi's, though they aren't really a computer
_part_ per se. That being said, computer parts occasionally do sell used for
more than their list price.

~~~
iMerNibor
> has happened with RAM recently as well.

Is happening sadly.. ram prices are still stupid

------
mrguyorama
I feel incredibly lucky. In late November (IIRC), I was mulling over whether I
should upgrade from an R9 270 to a better card that could manage VR someday. I
sat on the thought for a week, unwanting to buy a graphics card at above MSRP.
I finally pulled the trigger, as gaming is something I do a huge amount of,
and I have disposable income that I really need to learn to not be so stingy
with.

As of today, the card I bought costs over $720[0].

I paid just over $300

[0]:
[https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA6V66483...](https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA6V66483925&cm_re=rx_580-_-14-137-117-_-Product)

~~~
paulmd
A lot of those third-party listings are way high, just on the off case that
somebody impulse-buys them or blindly follows some internet guide/link.

On eBay, 580s are going for about $350 at the moment. Still more than double
what they were going for a year ago, you used to be able to reliably get the 8
GB for $175, but it's not $720 either. That's 1080 money.

------
mv4
Sensationalist title... but the article was a fun read nonetheless. For me,
building mining rigs is a great way to teach my kids some DIY skills,
electronics, thermodynamics, etc.

I've basically been using these as space heaters throughout the house, in the
tool shed, etc:

[https://www.alatortsev.com/2018/01/10/milk-crate-crypto-
mine...](https://www.alatortsev.com/2018/01/10/milk-crate-crypto-miner-aka-
space-heater/)

Now just need to figure out what to do with all the access heat in the summer.
Might heat the swimming pool. :)

------
Dylan16807
> “I’m using my electricity, my time and my effort to allow the cryptocurrency
> world to thrive.”

Come on, don't let him get away with that lie. More miners bring no benefits
to the ecosystem.

------
thrill
The only computer parts I hoard are my Microsoft trackball and klackety
keyboard.

------
astaroth360
Another negative point to throw on the pile. Cryptocurrency has been overhyped
to an unbelievable degree. It is environmentally harmful and generally a
nuisance. I like making money off of wildly fluctuating markets as much as the
next guy, but cryto is, at least in its current form, pretty damn stupid. All
this enthusiasm for something which, as of now, there still isn't really a
good use case for, is crazy.

------
coralreef
I think this is a short term thing and will ease as GPU supply catches up and
competition reduces profit margins. Right now from my calculations, a GPU is
looking at something like 10 months until break even based on current crypto
and GPU prices.

That's not a great investment considering you could just trade cyrpto itself
and be far more liquid.

~~~
wyld_one
heh, when? by the time you will be able to get one they will have a new one
out you can't get either. I thought I would be able to get two of the AMD vega
64 shortly after COMPDEX. Then I saw the prices. WHOOF. Availablity sucks,
price sucks, and frankly I am still waiting.

~~~
coralreef
At my local store (Toronto) pretty much all the Nvidia models are in stock.
Prices are high though.

There is also stock available on the aftermarket, including whole rigs for
sale.

------
themanual
BTW, I use a private VPN server which can be setup on aws in a few minutes
[https://github.com/webdigi/AWS-VPN-Server-
Setup](https://github.com/webdigi/AWS-VPN-Server-Setup)

No logging on server side guaranteed as it is your own server. AWS could
monitor but I don't mind that

~~~
themanual
Ignore above, meant for another post

------
Scoundreller
It trickles down too. My friend was going to throw out an old computer.

I pulled out the ancient ATI video card and sold it for $50 on eBay.

------
tardygrad
Biggest takeaway for me is that the WSJ now uses Gawker level clickbait
titles.

~~~
johnnyfived
Yikes I know. What a juxtaposition between an "edgy" headline ("felt like I
was buying drugs") and one of the most mundane opening sentences in journalism
I've ever read ("James Liska finally spotted a reasonably priced computer-
graphics card online. By the time he clicked “buy,” it was gone.").

------
uptown
Bypass:
[https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsj.com%2Fa...](https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsj.com%2Farticles%2Fthe-
computer-part-people-are-hoarding-i-felt-like-i-was-buying-
drugs-1518195876&h=ATOxuGLly3XW9UkbDHjTREeY4xgy5HCOqVP_KWEzco2gpHwMCLo-
bGoevuo3kjtmHu6Xy8zE_NSAjLKQWnjR4mc6YtGPhGk8b6l0RmOYTAvmU2vuVWOH3goHv6Y)

------
neonate
[http://archive.is/Z0q87](http://archive.is/Z0q87) works for me.

------
bitwize
Oh, so the video card shortage is an actual thing and not something Micro
Center sales staff ginned up in order to drive up prices.

Which means I got an absolute steal on my recent PC build, all things
considered.

