
Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe - timf
http://www.uncontactedtribes.org/brazilfootage
======
raganwald
You know that Golden Rule?" Not the one that VCs quote, but the one that goes
"Do unto others as you would have others do unto you?"

We should think about that when we choose how to deal with uncontacted tribes.
It may be that one day another intelligence will need to decide how to deal
with us, and on that day I hope we can say, "Yes, we used to have a habit of
massacring technologically inferior peoples we encountered, but we grew up a
little and we don't do that any more. Then we used to keep them alive but
destroy their culture and identity while mouthing platitudes about how we were
helping them, but we grew up a little and we don't do that any more either."

~~~
xenophanes
We should give them access to technology and to our way of life. Our way of
life is better. Preserving their backwards culture so they can continue lives
of misery and suffering is just as disgusting as the Prime Directive.

Help is exactly what I would want from advanced alien visitors. I don't want
them to respect my culture just because it is mine; I want something better
for myself, not cultural relativism.

There is nothing good or enviable about uncivilized lifestyles to preserve;
any actions that maintain them in that lifestyle are ensuring they literally
die young, mostly of preventable causes. Their lives are short, uncomfortable
and brutal. Trying to minimize contact is ensuring they do not get modern
medical care and that they retain their dark ages quality (or worse) myths and
prejudices.

~~~
d3x
I really hope you are kidding. If not this is so typical of the american way
of thinking. Yes, we are so superior lets convert them all to our [insert
culture, religion etc...]. What is so bad about leaving them alone? I would
bet they are much happer than the majority of the FB and Twitter obsessed
narcissist that I run into every day.

While we are at it lets make sure they all become good christians too because
anyone that has not accepted christ in their life just does not know what they
are missing.

Im not trying to be an ass but I fundamentally disagree with everything you
just said. BTW: you to know that Western medicine is not the only medicine in
the world. While we are at it lets take them our aids, diabetes, obesity
etc...

You are basically saying that your beliefs and way of life are so superior and
better than theirs that you must convert them and that is total bullshit. They
have a right just as you do to continue their way of life without someone like
you coming along and deciding what is and is not ok for them.

~~~
DanielBMarkham
_What is so bad about leaving them alone? I would bet they are much happer
than the majority of the FB and Twitter obsessed narcissist that I run into
every day._

What is so bad is you making the decision for them -- one way or the other.
It's that kind of pompous paternalistic attitude that caused all kinds of pain
and misery.

If they are happy with a life expectancy of 30, of having mothers die in
childbirth commonly, of dying of things like scratches and measles -- if they
want that life, let them have it. But show and tell them what they are missing
and let them decide. Don't arrogantly assume that there's something romantic
about living like a caveman. It's just as whacked as automatically assuming
they would want all of the modernity we enjoy.

What we've found, over and over again, is that contact with primitive cultures
destroys the cultures. That's because you'd have to be a flaming idiot to want
to live like that (I find the greatest supporters of "leave them alone" are
armchair philosophers living all nice and comfy in the west) We can't help
that, but it's no excuse to let people suffer when we can help them stop if
(If they so desire) There is nothing noble in inaction.

Treat people as you would like to be treated if you were them. It's really
very simple. If you'd like to rant and rave about how much modern life sucks,
fine. But don't use these guys as props to do so. They deserve better than
that.

By the way, this is also a pet peeve of mine, and I come at this from exactly
the opposite pov. Sometimes I think "Star Trek" has done more to muddy up an
entire generation of thinkers than a hundred piss-poor colleges could have
ever hoped to accomplish.

~~~
raganwald
_Treat people as you would like to be treated if you were them._

I wish I had 100 upmods to give. This is exactly what I was saying elsewhere,
we should think about how we would want to be treated. Would we want medicine
and education offered to us? Would we want the option for some of our elders
to live out the rest of their lives in a traditional manner? Would we want
bulldozers knocking down our trees? Would we want jobs driving bulldozers?

I don't know the answer, I just know that I'd want to ponder that for a good
long while if I had to make a call.

~~~
lwhi
I'd want to be left alone - give one example of colonialism that worked out
well for indigenous people, and I'll maybe change my mind.

~~~
Helianthus16
Ok.

India is now an "important" country. Burgeoning technologically and
culturally, what it received from Britain was access to the intellectual
firestorm of the Enlightenment. Hindu thinkers were involved in the formation
of Universalism, the idea that all religions were different aspects of the
same thing and could be united.

Of course, it cost them the pain of the Pakistan-India divide, the struggle of
Gandhi, and a confusing cultural identity among a people that didn't
necessarily have a singular cultural identity in the first place. But what
price is too much?

South Africa paid the price, and is now among the most advanced of African
nations.

Of course, most indigenous peoples just got royally fucked. Aboriginal
Australians and the Maori. So I suppose your point in general holds.

~~~
DufusM
It is a bit presumptuous to assume that India or S.A. would not have made
progress or exchanged "intellectual" information without a country sailing
over and lording over it for a hundred years.

Disclaimer: I am an Indian.

~~~
Helianthus16
I'm not assuming anything, I'm making an assertion--an assertion that could be
right or wrong. In particular I am not assuming/asserting that India or S.A.
would not have made progress.

I am saying that the effects of colonial rule are so unstable and so varied
that it can be difficult to the point of meaninglessness to say a country
would be "better" or "worse" without it.

The Bengal Renaissance is a documented movement, founded and driven by people
exposed to Western thought. That doesn't mean the movement wasn't theirs, that
they weren't the ones producing "intellectual" information. But they were in a
different place because of colonialism than they would have been without, one
where Indians went to school in Britain and where people were writing letters
to each other across the ocean.

~~~
DufusM
Technically, I agree, but using this same logic, the effects of _any_ major
historical incident are so unstable and so varied that "it can be difficult to
the point of meaninglessness to say a country would be "better" or "worse"
without it."

------
jbrennan
I wonder what kind of disturbance just the helicopter (or whatever method was
used to capture the footage) caused on the tribe.

Obviously the tribe was aware of it, but if they've never been contacted,
would they be able to even fathom what such a thing is? I'm genuinely curious
because I'm also genuinely ignorant on how "uncontacted" tribes like that are
and what their civilization is like.

Could anyone enlighten me? It seems like such a fascinating area of study.

~~~
cshenoy
There's a pretty detailed article
([http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1022822/Incre...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1022822/Incredible-
pictures-Earths-uncontacted-tribes-firing-bows-arrows.html)) that explains
what anthropologists assume they're thinking. It's basically "Stay Away" since
the plane is a foreign object. In fact, you can see the tribesmen readying
their weapons in case the flying object veers towards them.

~~~
riledhel
Photos taken a couple of years ago showing the "stay away" attitude pretty
good
[http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2008/05/uncontacted_tribe_p...](http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2008/05/uncontacted_tribe_photographed.html)

------
zachallaun
"If illegal loggers or miners contact these people, they won't shoot images...
They'll shoot guns."

Very few realize that there's more to protect in the Rainforest than trees.

~~~
Tutorialzine
You can't imagine how right you are. Tribes like this do not exist officially.
Loggers would not hesitate to wipe them off - problems solved, no questions
asked.

What is more troublesome, is that nobody knows how often this has happened in
the past.

~~~
parfe
I'm surprised you can so easily equate illegal loggers with mass murders.

I'm actually a bit shocked at a lot of the comments here. This story has
brought out the crazy in a lot of posters that's generally suppressed by the
focused theme of HN.

------
bradleyland
Man charged with the task of protecting indigenous people from intruders flies
overhead in a plane named after the Cherokee indian tribe.

Insignificant in the great scope of things, but I smirked a little.

------
donpdonp
I hope this undisturbed group of Emacs users is allowed to continue their
peaceful way of life.

~~~
bsandbox
That raises an important ethical question.. should we not let them know about
vim?

------
sukuriant
I have been skimming over the comments in here, and I have come to two
thoughts. First off, I don't have a well-established stance, but our god-like
observation of their civilization is ... strange. I wonder what would happen
if they all were struck by a terrible disease as the scientists with their
kilometre-spying cameras watched. Would they go and help? Where's their "don't
contact them" nature, then?

But that wasn't the thought I intended to contemplate. Some people have said
that their culture is lost. Why is their culture lost? And this is terrible,
but, does it matter? If their culture is full of things long since dis-proven,
what has been lost? If they choose to leave their old ways upon
discovering/learning (through whatever means) our ways, what does that matter?
Please explain why these things are bad to me. If a people has chosen a
different way of life upon experiencing it, who cares that it's gone? The
anthropologists that were having fun? This desperation to keep these people
isolated reminds me of another article I read on HN a while ago that discussed
scientists that were very sad about the situation that polar bears and
grizzlies were beginning to breed. I thought it was beautiful to see their
joined species able to survive, but I can only imagine the people that wanted
to keep them separate were disappointed, in part, because there wouldn't be
any pure-bred polar bears anymore.

My other thought is a request to HN for this very type of article. Please,
please, please, for heated debates like this with the numerous tree-like
threads. Please make a way to collapse sub-threads so the train of thought
that brought someone to a particular point can be clearly seen.

------
bendmorris
To avoid any confusion, from the site's FAQ:

"Is this an ‘undiscovered’ or ‘lost’ tribe?

No. This is empty sensationalism. It’s extremely unlikely there are any tribes
whose existence is totally unknown to anyone else. The uncontacted tribe in
these photos has been monitored by the Brazilian government for 20 years, and
lives in a reserve set up to protect uncontacted tribes."

------
russell_h
Absolutely fascinating stuff, and for me anyway it raises some interesting
ethical questions. Making contact with these tribes would (I would imagine)
destroy a lot of culture, to say nothing of the obvious issues of disease,
etc. On the other hand, in a society where we claim to value innovation and
progress, failing to offer these tribes the benefits available to others feels
a little wrong. Given the choice between our lifestyles and theirs, how many
of us would choose theirs?

It raises some interesting legal questions too. In the United States for
example, I believe (and I could be wrong on this) starting in 2014 we would
fine these tribes for failure to purchase health insurance. To say nothing of
the "Republican Form of Government" guarantee in the constitution.

~~~
Devilboy
Traditionally those legal problems are solved by simply granting these people
exceptions. I mean aboriginal people and native Americans do get special
treatment in some cases.

~~~
russell_h
Yeah, I expect thats how it would be handled here (although "granting an
exception" to the Constitution could get tricky, depending on the timeline in
this hypothetical).

What I really meant (and I wasn't very clear on this) was more of how could we
ethically reconcile our laws with our desire, if we have one, to preserve such
tribes. For the most part it seems like if you have to special-case something
you're doing something wrong to begin with. So either allowing such tribes to
exist without interference should run counter to what we're trying to
accomplish with our laws, or our laws don't actually say what we intend them
to.

~~~
Devilboy
Some of these tribes are even cannibals, they kill people and eat them. Should
we turn a blind eye to that too? I don't know. It's a hard question.

~~~
wazoox
There are several ways to anthropophagy, endogamous (eating your ancestors)
and exogamous (eating your enemies). Most cannibals tribes are of the first
kind, until some external pressure brings them to eat their enemies : \- rise
of slave trades may have pushed African tribes into exogenous cannibalism; \-
extreme scarcity of proteins source and population growth may be the cause of
cannibalism in Papua.

In any case, as Montaigne famously said more than 400 years ago, they would
find our way of treating our dead relatives (or enemies) incredibly cruel and
barbaric, letting them rot in the ground instead of giving them the proper
grave their souls call for in our own bodies?

------
idm
The idea of uncontacted tribes - still in existence - is awesome. ...but it's
a little scary too to consider the famous Arthur C. Clarke quote "any
sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Sure, these tribes may not have been contacted, but what mythologies have
evolved to explain the strange, huge bird in the sky that circles around them
from time to time?

~~~
m_myers
How do they know it's huge? From their point of view, it could be the size of
a bird.

The story goes that the Huaorani called Nate Saint's plane a "woodbee" before
he landed near them. After all, it flies and it buzzes.

~~~
BoppreH
They have two eyes with slightly different perspectives, and there's also the
atmosphere to color blue things that are far away, so they have some idea of
how far is it.

Knowing how far and how big it looks like, you can estimate the real size.

It's part of how our eye-brain interface works.

~~~
m_myers
Yes, but it's hard to judge things that you have no reference frame for.

There's another story about the Grand Canyon. Apparently the first Spaniards
to reach it estimated it to be a couple hundred feet deep, and thought the
part of the Colorado that they could see was about six feet across. It was a
mile down and 200 feet across, but they had no concept of a canyon that big.

~~~
billswift
A better example might be from Colin Turnbull's _The Forest People_ where one
of the Pygmies accompanied him to the edge of the forest and refused to
believe a distant "bug" was really a buffalo.

------
narrator
I am really getting a kick out of the ironic juxtaposition of the most
technologically primitive segment of the world population getting space up
here at the top of Hacker News. After all, the Hacker News audience represents
arguably the most technologically sophisticated segment of the world
population.

~~~
forensic
Unfortunately I think Hacker News, in this thread, is providing support to the
thesis that there is something about the engineer mindset that is inherently
authoritarian and extremist.

<http://www.slate.com/id/2240157/>

~~~
nitrogen
Perhaps when your job is to be right, and success or failure is quite clear
(either the program compiles or it doesn't; either the bridge supports its
design weight or it crumbles), it's easy to extend that mindset to the rest of
the world.

------
jim_h
[http://photoblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/02/01/5965571-newl...](http://photoblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/02/01/5965571-newly-
released-photos-of-uncontacted-amazon-indian-tribe-give-us-a-glimpse-of-
another-world?GT1=43001)

This has better photos. According to NBC report in 2008, an agency has been
aware of the tribe and have been tracking (and not contacting) them since
1910.

~~~
jim_h
They mostly likely have had contact with some people. In the first photo, you
can make out a nice machete and a pot.

~~~
RK
Supposedly this is due to intertribal trade, rather than direct contact with
the larger outside communities.

~~~
fingerprinter
Is there some number of links that would make this tribe 'contacted' then? I
would have assumed 'uncontacted' meant 'no knowledge of outside world at all'
but it seems not.

Having this tribe get a machete and pot and see a plane makes it feel pretty
'contacted'. Not that I want to quibble over some definition...

~~~
RK
I would make a Facebook joke here, but...

I think that they mean that these people have not been in direct contact with
non-tribal people. It sounds like most of them are _very_ isolated. Even the
other tribes that have contact with the mainstream society seem to have little
to no contact with these "uncontacted" tribes.

This is mostly info I read on that website and related links, i.e. I'm not an
expert.

------
rglullis
This "footage" hit the news a couple of years ago in Brazil, and a couple of
days later was challenged as being fake. I could look more into details and
see if there is any translation from the articles back then, but I will stand
that this is NOT an "uncontacted tribe".

~~~
goldins
Interesting - can you link to any sources?

~~~
rglullis
"The photographer that took the picture, José Carlos, has admitted that the
tribe has, in fact, been known about since 1910. He created the hoax "in order
to call attention to the dangers the logging industry may have on the group."

[http://www.geekologie.com/2008/06/fake_uncontacted_amazon_tr...](http://www.geekologie.com/2008/06/fake_uncontacted_amazon_tribe.php)

~~~
sorbus
If you read the source linked to in that article, the hoax wasn't that the
tribe was uncontacted; it was that it was only just discovered. However, the
fact that it's been known of for so long certainly does suggest that there has
been at least some contact.

------
Keyframe
Uncontacted tribe has had some contact
[http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/pb-1...](http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/pb-110201-tribe-
da-03.photoblog900.jpg) \- I see a metal pot in that image.

~~~
BoppreH
Maybe some group of loggers left it a while ago? There's a chance it's only
indirect contact.

[EDIT: or maybe inter-tribal trade, as someone else mentioned]

------
Mz
As far as the argument of contact or no contact, I don't have an answer but I
think the issue is that contact often destroys the culture rather than helps
it grow and evolve.

I have read some things that indicated native americans lost in part because
they adopted guns and abandoned bows. They lacked the means to make or money
to buy the type of oil that would work in cold weather and used lard instead,
which firms up in the cold. They would keep their guns under their blankets
with them to keep the lard warm enough for the guns to work. Just adopting one
piece of technology did not resolve their problems and it was a technology
they were ill equipped to adequately maintain.

I am reminded of a scene in "Lawrence of Arabia" where he tells the Arabs "If
you take English engineers, you take English rule."

Where you have a large, "evolved" culture with a density of people, material
goods, information and so on, contact with a culture that is less "dense" (in
terms of numbers of people, amount of material goods, etc) tends to simply
wipe it out, sometimes literally killing all members (because microbes in
large communities evolve rapidly and become more virulent -- Americans who
move to Europe, which is more densely populated, routinely wind up with a
horrific flu shortly after moving there, far worse than the flu bugs typically
caught in the U.S. This is common knowledge in the military community/among
military families who have ever lived over there.).

I wish a knew a means to gently make contact and offer options. I think that
would be the ideal. I have no idea if it is achievable.

~~~
mahmud
Lawrence of Arabia? Might as well cite Tarzan comics.

~~~
Mz
Lawrence of Arabia is a historical figure and I did a college paper on him. He
accomplished amazing things in the real world in terms of helping the Arabs
achieve their independence. The Arabs were a relatively "primitive" (tribal)
people compared to the English who sought to rule them. The film is based on
real events. Like most such films, it is part documentary, part fiction/drama.
He was famous enough during his life to have been followed around by a
journalist. The journalist provided both actual documentation of Lawrence's
activities (through film and photos) but also hyped it, so not all of that
information is really accurate. Some themes in the movie are relevant to the
discussion here:

The Arabs keep wanting British artillery as The Answer. The British don't want
to give it to them because they want to keep the Arabs under their thumb.
(Note: Like with American Natives, they apparently saw "guns" as a source of
power and wanted them completely out of context -- unable to manufacture them
themselves and so on.)

Lawrence tells the Arabs that he thinks their traditional ways are their
source of power -- that riding camels through the desert like they did
historically is the way to have power equivalent to British power. At the
time, Britain was a Naval power and he compares the camels to ships and the
desert to the ocean.

I cannot verify whether or not Lawrence ever said that but it is historical
fact that he rode with Arab irregulars and that such troops traveled by camel.
It is also historical fact that he took Aqaba, a key port city, with a force
of only 40 men.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Revolt>

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._E._Lawrence>

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_of_Arabia_(film)>

Here is an actual quote of the man which agrees with the gist of what I am
saying and from a reputable source:

 _Do not try to do too much with your own hands. Better the Arabs do it
tolerably than that you do it perfectly. It is their war, and you are to help
them, not to win it for them. Actually, also, under the very odd conditions of
Arabia, your practical work will not be as good as, perhaps, you think it is._

<http://telawrence.info/telawrenceinfo/life/biog_quotes.shtml>

~~~
Mz
Too much time has passed and I no longer have an edit button. Wanted to make
it more accurate. My brain mangled the following:

Lawrence and Auda left Wedj on 9 May 1917 with a party of 40 men to recruit a
mobile camel force from the Howeitat of Syria.[10] On 6 July, after an
overland attack, Aqaba fell to those Arab forces with only a handful
casualties.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Revolt>

So he went with 40 men and more joined. It would be better if my remarks
indicated he took Aqaba with a relatively small number of Arab irregulars. But
they apparently basically overran the city with a small-ish force. The point
is not inaccurate, but the detail of how many men is inaccurate.

My bad -- posting in the middle of the night while suffering insomnia.

------
zeteo
It's so easy to play God hovering in the skies, and make decisions for these
people's future, isn't it? Maybe they actually don't enjoy 50+% child
mortality, dying of appendicitis, and having to barter a truckload of
plantains for a pot and a steel machete. Why don't they send someone on the
ground, to explain to them that there's a big world out there that can change
their ways forever, and give them a choice whether they'd like to be a part of
it or not?

~~~
megablast
Well, you could not simply explain it to them, you would have to show it to
some of them, and let them live the life, before they could make an informed
decision.

Perhaps the best advice would be to contact other tribes that have been
assimilated, and see how they feel about the process. Would they go back, if
they could?

~~~
forensic
This has been done.

Individuals have been taken from tribes and allowed to integrate into western
society.

They usually choose to go back.

~~~
dmg8
link?

~~~
sukuriant
yes, a link would be very nice for that one.

Furthermore, I'd like to know reasons for their return, if that's the case.
Also, I'd like to know what their children think, if they have them in the
outside world, and what happens if they're provided some of the benefits of
outside society (eg: state-of-the-art surgery from top-trained surgeons)

------
elliottcarlson
A trail to the articles pronouncing this a hoax/fake back in 2008:

[http://www.geekologie.com/2008/06/fake_uncontacted_amazon_tr...](http://www.geekologie.com/2008/06/fake_uncontacted_amazon_tribe.php)

~~~
araneae
If you read that article, what the guy supposedly lied about was that no one
else knew about them. But they do live there.

------
goldins
Did this shatter anyone else's perception of how well-connected we are, as a
species?

~~~
Cyranix
The existence of isolated social groups isn't a mind-blowing concept to me,
but not something I think about daily either. Does a new awareness of the
exception to the rule really change your perception of how interconnected most
of humanity is?

Maybe I'm reading too much into this comment, but something about it seems to
imply that being disconnected from the global network is a bad thing. Though I
myself am a highly plugged-in urbanite, I hope that people who see this
remember that living in a small group (or even alone) is just as valid as
assimilating with the vast network that connects the majority.

~~~
goldins
I didn't mean it as a negative comment; I don't see being isolated as a bad
thing, but definitely (at least) mildly mind-blowing. Honestly, I don't think
I've though about this level of isolation (not used negatively here either)
from other regions and cultures. For the majority of my life I have been
connected to people via different networks and this is a culture that I, also
a highly plugged-in urbanite, can't relate to much (again, not in a bad way).
I think that other people who see this on HN share a similar viewpoint - we're
so far removed from isolation that we don't see this as "valid" or "invalid"
but as a completely different culture that doesn't relate to ours except on
very basic levels.

------
radicaldreamer
Meta about some of the comments on this post: I've never seen such unbridled
arrogance and xenophobia in a post on HN before. The our way or the highway
attitude is shocking.

~~~
necolas
The ignorance and lack of empathy are surprising.

~~~
randallsquared
It's unclear whether you agree with the g'parent or disagree. Perhaps that was
intentional. :)

------
olivercameron
Watching this clip was one of the worst Flash video experiences I have ever
had. Ridiculously laggy.

On another note, watching this video was also one of the most humbling
experiences I have ever had.

~~~
Rariel
Why was it humbling?

~~~
josephb
Maybe the experience of using flash?

~~~
RK
Seeing how far we've come, but we still can't get flash right, I would guess.

------
mkconor
This issue is tricky and not for some of the reasons I've seen listed in this
thread. My maternal grandparents were both the children of indigenious South
Americans so this is somewhat personal for me. One the one hand if we contact
them then we are dooming everyone in the tribe above the age of about ten to
dependency for the rest of their lives. They will go from being autonomous,
skilled members of a sovereign tribe to illiterate, unskilled Peruvian
citizens in one fell swoop. In their world they own their land, have their own
system of wealth and acheivement and customs that are tailored to their own
strengths. In our world, they are penniless and barely subsist on land that is
actually owned but the Peruvian government. Unless the proponents of contact
are willing to provide the extensive resources they will need in order to
assimilate to our way of life, I say we leave them alone. I saw alot of
mention of technology and medicine and all the other comforts of modern life,
but those things are not free for the taking. There are hundreds of thousands
of

------
nhebb
There's something appalling about this, as if remote tribal people are to be
watched like animals on the Discovery channel. It's creepy. They're not there
for your viewing entertainment.

------
tokenadult
As the BBC reports, the advocacy group that is promoting these images
acknowledges that the persons shown have steel machetes, which must be trade
goods. So to call them "uncontacted" is stretching a point.

<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12325690>

------
eneveu
Reminds me of "Guns, Germs, and Steel". I've started reading it a few weeks
ago, following recommendations on another HN thread. Great book so far.

Part of the book focuses on diseases, and how epidemic diseases only spread in
large populations. Problem appears when small tribes with no immunization are
exposed to these "common" diseases...

------
bradleyjoyce
as I am currently living in Peru, this is pretty moving to me. the argument
here on both sides is pretty powerful, and you can easily find passionate
people telling you it's real, or it's fake, etc etc. The president's (Alan
Garcia) accusation that environmentalists are making "uncontacted people" up
seems pretty ridiculous to me though, as there seems to be a lot of evidence
supporting the claim that there a number of uncontacted peoples in the remote
regions of the country.

------
Eliezer
I say it's time to send them their Hogwarts letters.

------
harshpotatoes
It sucks that if these uncontacted tribes were to try to make contact, the
only people that would be there to meet them would be loggers. I can't imagine
loggers would treat them with the same dignity/respect that a trained
professional might.

------
yoyar
I'm astounded (perhaps I should not be) that so many assume that the lives of
the people in these cultures must be short brutish and unpleasant. For a
culture, or set of cultures to survive and likely thrive for 1000s of years in
the jungle it must be a rich life. Take a look at the decoration these people
paint on their skin for instance. They have free time to decorate and adorn
themselves. They have farms. They have technology and knowledge beyond what
your small minds can imagine. Yes, technology, they can light fires, create
traps for the food they need, farm and make tools from all manner of naturally
occurring materials that surround them in abundance. I'd wager they live an
abundant happy life. Sure, they have their difficulties. But I live in modern
society and I have lots of difficulties too. These people live in a tightly
knit family and society. I envy them in some ways. I certainly wouldn't be
sitting here thinking how much better I have it from them. They have a
different way of life. To assume their way or our way is better can only stem
from ignorance, and oh of course, no shortage of arrogance.

If someone took you and immersed you in the jungle you'd be lucky to last a
day or two.

Think of what would happen to one of these people if you put them in a city.

------
mhewett
I once attended a talk by Carl Sagan where, during the question-answer
session, someone mentioned how much we could learn from "primitive societies".
Sagan replied that we should not glorify such lives. In addition to other
things, he said that in 1900 the average life span in civilized countries was
35. As artificial and commercialized as we have become, technology has
improved our lives.

------
mynameishere
Realistically, they're on borrowed time. I mean, the common cold (etc, etc)
isn't going to play nice once it finally hits them.

------
glenjamin
With the amount of comments on this page it's unlikely anyone will even see
this, but am I the only one surprised at how many people still use the term
"Indian" to refer to natives populations who look a bit like Indians?

As far as I'm aware, this is the sole reason for the origination of the term
in this context (as opposed to, you know, people from India).

~~~
edanm
I think the term has nothing to do with looks. It originated because, when
Columbus first came to America, he thought he was in India (that _was_ his
destination, after all), so he called the people there "Indians". Now the term
tends to mean "natives".

------
grn
I find it extremely disgusting. There's nothing wrong with contacting others.
Everyday I'm contacted by lots of people: colleagues, marketers, head hunters
etc. They give me _choice_. Let members of the tribe enjoy the same freedoms.
Stop treating them like animals in a ZOO.

------
malkia
Makes me wonder if aliens are not treating us also as uncontacted tribe but on
a larger scale.

------
jseifer
Did anyone else notice how healthy they looked?

~~~
AngryParsley
Selection effect. You also didn't see anyone with cleft palettes or
appendicitis or iodine deficiency. If somebody gets sick or injured in that
tribe, they're much more likely to die than in most places. Also, sick or
injured people don't romp around the forest checking out strange birds in the
sky.

~~~
jseifer
Yeah but compare the groups you saw there to some random groups you'd see in a
mall here. There's a pretty big difference.

------
ylem
Given loggers, or just the general expansion of modern civilizations, they
will run into the outside world. Wouldn't it be better if they were given a
gentle introduction? Send in some speakers and voice/video feeds. Eventually
send in people. If they want to be left alone afterwards, it's their choice.
If some people want to explore the outer society, let them.

If you look at say, Malaysia, the Iban have done pretty well in Sarawak--
contact doesn't have to result in the destruction of the natives...

------
yaix
Knowledge is misery, so better leave them alone.

Having knowledge about the world only shows you how much you don't know. And
the more you learn, the more you are aware of all the things you have not yet
discovered and will never learn in your lifetime.

So, its much nicer to be able to know "the whole world" (i.e. the isolated
village you live in). You know everything and everybody in the "world" and for
the stuff you can't explain (lightning, death) you just make up a god and
blame it on him/her.

What a great life!

------
T_S_
It's absurd to say they are "uncontacted". They are humans after all. How can
such a smart crowd fall for that headline stuff?

Concerns about their public health and inability to defend their property
rights (our interpretation of those rights, at least) may be well founded.
However, this whole episode says more about how Brazil tries to control
loggers than it does about indigenous people. They are finally starting to
slow down deforestation, using any tool they can.

------
StaxBread
To everyone saying that they should be given the opportunity to join our
civilization, it's not like they have a choice. They'll die if they get the
common cold or flu or at the very least come close to death.

And how do we know that our civilization is "better" for them? It's not like
they could become incorporated into our society anyway (not the current
generation). Contacting and converting them is more an act of self-
righteousness than anything else.

------
tectonic

      "The house of ‘The Last of his Tribe’, a sole surviving uncontacted man who lives on his own in the forest after the rest of his tribe were massacred"
    

<http://www.uncontactedtribes.org/evidence>

------
evlapix
How do uncontacted people view us? They seem to be mesmerized by the plane,
and even chase after it for a longer look. Can't we just ask them how they
want to relate with us? I'm sure we can find some way to discuss the matter
with them and still not be invasive.

------
ebaysucks
We shouldn't impose anything on them, but why not make contact?

Offer them our technology and let them decide whether they want to use it.

I wouldn't want to be treated like a primitive animal in a zoo incapable of
making their own choices by a technologically superior way of life.

------
njharman
I saw pictures from this video months ago. I thought it was demonstrated then
to be a "hoax" or faked.

No?

------
twidlit
I think the best way to do this is observe, document and study as much of
their culture as we can without contact, After that contact them to with the
goal of medical help and protection. And proceed carefully from there.

------
adsr
In my opinion they would have left their forrest a long time ago if they where
really curious to seek out what was beyond it. The fact that they stay,
indicates to me that they are happy with the way life is.

~~~
jordan0day
Let's think about, say, American slaves in 1835. Only _some_ slaves risked
their lives trying to reach free states or Canada and escape slavery.
Therefore any slave who remained must have been happy with the way their life
was?

Curiosity only has _a little_ to do with it. Maybe the curious ones left and
never returned. That doesn't mean those that remain enjoy their lives.

I mean, I could be wrong and they're the happiest people on earth, but I bet
some penicillin could make their lives even better.

~~~
adsr
I don't think slaves is the best comparison here, their way of life was
artificial and forced on them and there was an unbalance of power. My point
was that terms like happiness, and quality of life is hard to find any
absolute definitions for. It's highly subjective and ones view of it is very
likely colored by the culture a person identifies with. These people do most
likely posess expert knowledge of their forrest, hypothetically there is
nothing that is preventing them from leaving, or seeking out the unknown. This
is not a quality that is unique to the europeans who colonised the world.

------
drndown2007
gokhan's comment is buried quite deep, but needs to be seen:

"Check the FAQ first:
[http://www.uncontactedtribes.org/articles/3109-questions-
and...](http://www.uncontactedtribes.org/articles/3109-questions-and..).

But could this be because they don’t see the benefits of ‘our’ way of life? If
they knew, might they want to join us?

They won’t get the chance. In reality, the future offered by the settler
society is to ‘join’ at the lowest possible level often as beggars and
prostitutes. History proves that tribal peoples end up in a far worse state
after contact, often dead."

------
Karhan
Did anyone else notice that one of them shot an arrow at the plane? lol.

In all seriousness I wonder how they would treat someone like him if he just
showed up one day. Probably depends on the day of the week.

~~~
reledi
I noticed that as well. They seemed quite defensive, but rightfully so since
they probably have no idea why the plane is monitoring their village so it
might seem as a threat to them.

------
pshapiro
Uncontacted? It looks like they're looking right into the lens!

~~~
hydrazine
True, though they may have filed it away as an unexplained phenomenon, given
that the plane was tiny and the camera was shooting from a mile away.

------
Baadier
Throwing my 2 cents in here but I just wonder whether by giving them right to
choose culture we would inadvertently have already made that decision for
them.

------
Tycho
This makes me think of those Waco cult members that felt the wrath of the
authorities - because they had children within their community I think.

------
kmfrk
It would be a good opportunity for Amazon to spend some money on charity.
Benefits both parties.

------
knv
Time to send Missionaria Protectiva to spread the Panoplia Propheticus among
them!

------
flip
Anyone else feel a little guilty just watching it?

~~~
ebaysucks
Why would one feel guilty?

------
lwhi
Poor poor people - they'll be better off if we stay away.

EDIT: There is absolutely no chance that our western society has 'got it
right'. If you think otherwise, I'm afraid you're deluding yourself.

~~~
BoppreH
Our life expectancy and education is literally thousands of years ahead of
anything they have. You can argue about violence, capitalism and religion, and
I'd agree, but parts of our culture _are_ better then theirs in easily
measurable ways.

~~~
gregwebs
education: it depends on the subject- many of the people under discussion are
probably expert trackers/hunters and have a more intimate knowledge of their
surroundings than even our modern biologists. Most of civilization's education
is not very useful in this context.

I doubt there is a single part of our culture that is "better in an easily
measurable way". This includes life expectancy, which of course cannot be
"literally thousands of years ahead".

~~~
Pheter
How is life expectancy not easy to measure? (Unless you mean without
disturbing them)

~~~
necolas
Why should we assume 'life expectancy' is an absolute measure of progress. One
could equally argue that what one does over the course of a lifetime is more
important than how long it lasts. Many people in our social systems spend the
best part of 15 years in school, then 40 years working 40 hours a week, and
may spend their final years riddled with diseases; depression and mental
illness are on the rise; obesity, diabetes, back problems, etc., are
increasingly common even in the young.

It was only relatively recently that the overall health of a person living in
an agricultural society came to be comparable with the health inferred from
ancient hunter gatherer skeletons.

There is no way to objectively 'measure' whether their lives or ours are
better spent or more enjoyable.

------
wowfat
wow. This would have been 1000X awesome if this was a video captured by one of
our space telescopes looking at another galaxy!

------
ylem
I must say that the footage is amazing!

------
sabat
This is blowing my mind. Do I understand this right? There are people living
in the forests of Brazil that have no idea about the modern world?!

~~~
muppetman
Yup. And people out there care about the ipad2. Amazing huh?

------
AndrewMoffat
How is it that some peoples can remain in this state for so long? Please don't
read disrespect in the question, I mean it neutrally. There seems to have been
very little innovation or growth in terms of technology when you look at
people still living like this.

~~~
gregwebs
Because they most likely lead a happy (and possibly leisurely lifestyle by our
standards) already. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_affluent_society>

Perhaps a more interesting question to ask is why would anyone want to switch
to civilization? It has really been all downside (except for the wealthiest
few %) until very recently in history.

------
hasenj
The footage almost looks like clips from the movie Avatar.

~~~
StaxBread
More like the movie Avatar looks like footage like this ;)

------
logjam
Relevant: "cultural imperialism" -

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_imperialism>

------
bane
Zuck is probably wondering how he can get them on Facebook at this very
moment.

