
If DjangoGirls makes you uncomfortable, maybe that’s a good thing - GFK_of_xmaspast
http://pfctdayelise.tumblr.com/post/124739040293/if-djangogirls-makes-you-uncomfortable-maybe
======
amyjess
As a low femme girl who's also a software professional and a hobbyist, I'll
say we need more articles like these.

I'm also particularly impressed to see Julia Serrano being quoted here.
Serrano is mostly known as a trans activist, but she's also done a lot to
tackle what she terms _femmephobia_ , which is a serious problem even in
progressive spaces such as LGBT and feminist communities.

While efforts to get more women into tech are commendable, I've witnessed an
attitude of "we'd love to see more women, just as long as they act like
honorary guys, and they get rid of all that girly shit". What's worse is that
this attitude is perpetuated by the very same people who want more women in
tech. Honestly, I think it's a problem. There's very much a tendency for
feminist activists to throw their femme sisters under the bus, and it bothers
me. I already don't get along with a lot of feminists because they take issue
with my personal choice to refer to myself as a "girl" rather than a "woman".

I love slinging code, and I've always had an interest in taking things apart
to see how they work. That said, I also really like looking pretty, and I go
nuts over anything that can be described as cute. That shouldn't be a
contradiction, and I'm glad groups like the Django Girls are here to get more
girls like me involved with programming.

------
mordocai
I like the argument and Django Girls, but the article seems to act like some
things are inherently feminine. Pink has only been considered feminine
relatively recently, for instance, previously the blue/pink thing was
reversed.

I have no problem with them using cupcakes and yoga if it appeals to their
chosen demographic, but acting like such things are inherently feminine seems
wrong to me.

Things are only feminine because we(society) choose them to be.

~~~
jeremyt
I would disagree with your assertion that gender specific items are "nurture"
and not "nature", and a lot of research would disagree with you, too.

I remember reading about a specific study done on humans, but I can't recall
enough to find it at the moment. However, there seem to be several similar
studies done on primates that reinforce the conclusion.

[https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-
fundamen...](https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-
fundamentalist/200804/why-do-boys-and-girls-prefer-different-toys)

/edit Here it is

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer)

~~~
mordocai
My last statement may be too strong, but I still believe there is a very
strong amount of nurture in our culture regarding gender differences. Things
like "girls like pink" is a big one considering that previously it was boys
who were associated with pink and we changed that as a society.

On the other hand, things like girls liking dolls may indeed be due to nature
(never mind that boys like action figures which are basically dolls).

I think like most things it is actually a combination of nurture and nature.

------
joe_the_user
_Compulsory femininity, where girls and women are expected to act and look a
certain way, is bad, yes. But femininity itself is not inherently weak, or
silly, or frivolous, or bad._

The thing about this is, you have a situation where some resources are offered
along with the expectation that a group of girls will want a certain
aesthetic. There's nothing wrong with just choosing that aesthetic but giving
something with the strong expectation that you will like a given aesthetic
seems to be actively pushing a person in a given direction.

It's not that I have an objection to someone freely choosing this aesthetic as
such but that you can't be certain that target audience is going to like being
pushed towards this aesthetic. And as the author essentially acknowledges,
girls are frequently pushed in this direction normally.

~~~
gknoy
My impression was that the DjangoGirls founders have probably done some
significant A/B testing on their presentation, and found that having a more
"feminine" (even if that follows stereotyped gender lines) set of options
makes it more appealing to their target demographic (ladies).

If having flowers, sparkles, cute animals, or beautiful typography on the
pages helps women and girls discover that they love programming (or even that
they don't), that's _awesome_.

------
milspec
The comment about being women being treated differently when they wear a dress
shows misunderstanding. The male equivalent to that is not a T-shirt and
jeans. It's the suit. I'd sure be treated differently if I wore a suit. I'd be
trading one kind of signaling for another, giving up technical cred in favor
of business cred.

~~~
numbnuts
There are many styles of dresses with multiple levels of formality. A
sundress, for example, is in no way equivalent to a suit.

~~~
milspec
A sundress is much closer to a suit than it is to a T-shirt and jeans.

Considering modesty though, a woman in a sundress is equivalent to a man
wearing a tank top. We don't get males in the office wearing tank tops or
anything else that would expose the collarbone, armpits, shoulders, or
shoulderblades. These things are normally considered inappropriate. We also
don't normally see males wearing snug form-fitting shirts. It's not considered
appropriate. Feel free to wear that stuff while you weed your lawn at home.

So that is two strikes against the sundress. It's kind of formal, yet no more
modest than a tank top.

~~~
BerislavLopac
"We also don't normally see males wearing snug form-fitting shirts"

Heh you should really visit Shoreditch or Soho on a warm sunny day. ;-)

------
GFK_of_xmaspast
I came across this a few days ago, and posted because some people in the other
thread
([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9982730](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9982730))
were getting uncomfortable about DjangoGirls.

~~~
Nadya
Which seemed to mostly be Joe - and I support Joe's criticism. It has to do
with gender norms, society constructed and "helpful to market" or not.

Where do tomboys fit into this? Where do transgender women fit into this [3]?
I'd be put off from attending due to all the emphasis on "girly things" and
the fact that I don't know if I belong or not (without doing some more
research at least).

On the blog here [0] there is a mention for "Yay Python", seemingly headed by
some Django Girls. It caught my interest so I went to the page [1]. Glitter,
art, and sparkles. Beautiful (used 5 times on the one page) and imaginative. A
child-like connect-the-dots with flowers and pink and "girly typography".

I'm sure it's, on a technical level, a great book. But it comes off as "this
is girly, made by girls, and it's meant for girls [2].

In their attempt to make "squirrels feel more welcome" they've marginalized
even more squirrels _further_ by showing that these "tomsquirrels" don't even
belong with the squirrels!

 _> The book will build on the Django Girls tradition, with "a good dose of
emoji and funny little quirks"._

So girls have to use a lot of emoji and be "quirky" (cutesy?)? I'm feeling
less and less like I belong...

[0] [https://lwn.net/Articles/651833/](https://lwn.net/Articles/651833/)

[1] [http://yaypython.com/](http://yaypython.com/)

[2] Usable by anyone is a cop out. Girls can play with Hot Wheelz and action
figures too, but they aren't the target demographic. The book is obviously
marketed towards girls even if it is usable by anyone.

[3]
[http://organize.djangogirls.org/attendees/index.html](http://organize.djangogirls.org/attendees/index.html)
| I did more research, though I'm still confused if I would be encouraged to
be given priority or not? Not renumbering to show that I checked after writing
everything else out.

~~~
amyjess
Hey, I'm a trans girl. I'm also fairly feminine. I love coding, I especially
love Python, and I also love stuff with "glitter, art, and sparkles". That
should never be a contradiction.

I'm thoroughly sick and tired of all the femme-shaming that's endemic in
feminist and LGBT communities. Julia Serrano is right: femmephobia is a
serious problem.

Honestly, as a mostly platform-level programmer who never really got into
webdev, something like the Django Girls stuff might actually get me to learn
the webby side of things.

~~~
Nadya
I have nothing against femininity. There are some tomboys who essentially tie
their very identity to "hates girly things" and they are _still girls_ and
should _still feel included_ in a place like this. Django Girls place _too
much emphasis_ on the femininity of everything, as if someone is questioning
if they are girly enough because they're "nerds doing tech things". It's
bizarre to me and I'd feel uncomfortable. I've also had some time to speak to
a few coworkers and, with no surprise to me, the more tomboyish ones would
feel weird or unwelcome because femininity is too much of a focus.

A tech conference should not be the time or place to play on gender norms. If
you are not interested in technology for technologies' sake then you shouldn't
be there! Go do something you're _interested in_. If an all-tech place is too
boring for you to attend that speaks more about _you_ than _tech_.

I'd also like to clarify it's perfectly fine to love glitter, art, sparkles,
and Python. If your goal isn't to be inclusive, it's fine to host an event
loving all 4 at once! But if you want to be inclusive, you should focus more
on the Python and less on the glitter, art, and sparkles.

