
Tesla gave workers permission to stay home, then sent termination notices - joering2
https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Tesla-gave-workers-permission-to-stay-home-rather-15365312.php
======
elicash
This, to me, is the key sentence:

> They believe they received the notifications for speaking up about their
> concerns with working conditions at the plant.

The conversation so far here seems focused on them not showing up after being
told they didn't have to. But did everybody who did not show up get these
notices? Was it just folks who were vocal about working conditions?

Is this retribution? Why do the workers say so? It's always a danger to take a
company's stated reasons for termination at face value. It could be true, but
it might not. I'd love to hear more details.

~~~
jdxcode
Even though we might not like the idea, Californians can be fired simply for
complaining though—correct?

~~~
elicash
NLRA covers protected concerted activity at the national level. Whether this
speech falls into that, or whether these employees are covered under the NLRA,
I don't think we have the specifics for.

But there are more worker protections than people realize. The biggest problem
with them is enforcement and lack of penalties.

~~~
paulcole
If there's hardly any consequences then you're not protected at all.

~~~
elicash
I agree with the general point, but I'd add that there's additional power in
collective action, but that's of course harder to organize than a legal
challenge. And also that people (both management and not) are also just
unaware of the laws.

But yes, to just name one example, I believe there should be punitive damages
when a company is found to be in violation of these labor laws.

~~~
paulcole
An individual can’t take part in a collective action unless they have some
kind of personal safety net in place.

Get fired for speaking up about something illegal? Better hope you have a new
job lined up or you have plenty of savings. Because it’s gonna be a long time
before you either get your job back or see any kind of settlement.

~~~
elicash
I work in labor. I've seen incredible things happen when workers bravely take
risks in collective action. These are some of the most underpaid workers in
America.

~~~
paulcole
Can you share an example of some of the most underpaid workers in America
bravely taking risks in collective action that you’ve personally seen?

~~~
elicash
Nursing home workers organizing during the coronavirus to get the PPE they
needed.

~~~
paulcole
Do you think they would’ve taken the same actions if not for the safety net of
the most generous unemployment benefits in a generation (if not longer)?

~~~
elicash
Yes

~~~
paulcole
Thanks wasn’t sure.

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sandworm101
>> Employees, like the broader public, are left to learn of Musk's mind-set
through his sporadic 280-character posts on Twitter.

That's the real crux of the problem. That is not evidence of a mature
corporate environment. Broad policy statements and occasional emergency
directives can come directly from the top, but day-to-day HR policy should
come in writing after being signed off by appropriate directors/managers.

I've seen this at small-but-getting-bigger tech companies. The "founders"
still act like they are running a business out of a garage. Once you have
hundreds of employees you need to stop barking orders over a phone and comit
all important policy decisions to paper.

~~~
hartator
> That's the real crux of the problem. That is not evidence of a mature
> corporate environment. Broad policy statements and occasional emergency
> directives can come directly from the top, but day-to-day HR policy should
> come in writing after being signed off by appropriate directors/managers.

Funny that we give local govs way more power with way less accountability.

~~~
linksnapzz
Right. Let me know when Tesla employees can vote for a new CEO.

~~~
sjwright
Let me know when a vote of employees of any publicly traded company can
overrule a vote of shareholders on anything half as consequential as the
appointment of a CEO.

~~~
ericmay
I mean... they don't exactly have a vote unless they own shares of the
company. They could unionize, etc. deride the culture of the company, or quit
though,

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jaybeeayyy
I'm not sure if this is a surprise to anyone when the CEO of Tesla has made it
very clear that he doesn't believe the threat of COVID-19 is real and that a
mandated quarantine is fascism. Couple that with the factory conditions that
have been reported by workers previously and the result is this.

~~~
skellington
No, he has said that he believes the threat of COVID does not warrant the
extreme response of mandated lockdowns. That's a lot different than saying
there is no threat.

Every day, people make decisions around risk and people can have wildly
different opinions on how much risk to accept in order to live.

~~~
FireBeyond
And he has made that decision on behalf of his employees, too, not just
himself. He is deciding how much risk that they need to be willing to take.

~~~
skellington
Well, without employees showing up there is no more Tesla.

So each employee should be able to make the choice to take a very small risk
and go to work or to live in irrational fear and quit their job.

The only mistake Tesla made was saying they didn't have to come if they were
afraid. They should have just made it clear, come to work or be fired.

I guess by your logic, CEOs of banks, supermarkets, food processing, farmers,
truckers, utility workers, insurance companies, hardware stores, airlines,
hotels, hospital workers, etc. are all evil because they are 'forcing' their
employees to work too.

But I'm sure that your response (in spirit) will be "The only essential
businesses that should be allowed to force people to work are the ones THAT I
NEED. I don't need a Tesla so it's not an essential business and we can just
let it go out of business and layoff 50K people."

~~~
ilikehurdles
> The only mistake Tesla made was saying they didn't have to come if they were
> afraid. They should have just made it clear, come to work or be fired.

You call it a "mistake". I call it lying. It wasn't an accident or a run of
the mill bad phrasing, it was trying to placate the government and the press
with one message while punishing everyone who didn't read between the lines of
it.

And you're right about there not being a Tesla without employees showing up.
That's why Elon fires anyone who he suspects recognizes the power of a strike.

~~~
skellington
You say potato, I say politics.

What startup company could survive unionization and striking workers?

~~~
FireBeyond
Tesla was formed nearly 20 years ago and has a market cap of $190B.

It is not in any way, shape or form, a "startup".

------
rhacker
Literally, if every single person starting today, wears a mask when they are
within 15 feet of another person, and all the time indoors, this virus would
be gone from the entire United States in 2 months. No additional shutdown
needed.

~~~
mcv
A mask is no substitute for distance. It does help, but in hospitals, where
people know how to use masks properly, a lot of people still got infected.
Many people do not know how to use masks properly.

What you want is masks + distance. The mask is really a stop-gap measure when
keeping distance fails.

Also: gloves.

~~~
MAGZine
There's early evidence to suggest that masks do more to prevent the spread of
the virus than physical distancing.

Of course, yes, it would be easy to say, "just never get in range and the mask
doesn't matter," but we live in urban environments and need to do the best we
can in light of that.

~~~
ikeyany
What is your source for that information?

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falcolas
Charitably, this is a mistake in communication. Tesla should fix this
immediately though, because it doubles down on the poor impressions formed by
breaking county (IIRC) law when restarting their factories.

~~~
SpicyLemonZest
I suspect it's not entirely a mistake. When Tesla offered to let workers take
unpaid leave, they probably didn't mean for it to last until "when covid-19 is
over" as these workers wanted.

~~~
throwaway_jobs
> I suspect it's not entirely a mistake.

Like Tesla calling their driving assistance “auto-pilot”.

~~~
delaaxe
You mean full self driving?

~~~
throwaway_jobs
“ All new Tesla cars come standard with advanced hardware capable of providing
Autopilot features today, and full self-driving capabilities in the future...”

[https://www.tesla.com/autopilot](https://www.tesla.com/autopilot)

You’re right Tesla is guilty of marketing features that don’t exist today but
will “in the future”.

But hey they disclose the truth in the fine print (Autopilot is not
autonomous), so nothing to see and god forbid we accurately call it what it is
“driver assist“ instead of autopilot or even the as of yet non-existent “full
self driving”:

“Current Autopilot features require active driver supervision and do not make
the vehicle autonomous.”

------
rrock
I wonder how many people are reconsidering Tesla purchases now, and how that
compares to the cost of having these workers on unpaid leave. Seems to be the
wrong decision from both the ethical and the business perspective.

~~~
sjwright
I'm curious, do you think that early information-limited reporting of alleged
unethical treatment of two employees is enough to decide to shift your
purchase over to Ford, Toyota or Volkswagen? Have you confirmed that the
company who wins your vehicle purchase have, statistically speaking, done
unethical things to proportionally fewer employees?

~~~
travisporter
Not to get meta, but both you and the parent are asking leading questions. I
do it too, but I don't think we shoudl I think it's because we're trying to be
polite but make a point. Maybe it's just an online thing.

~~~
sjwright
I do understand your concern. Even so, I prefer leading questions over
unverified assertions, or opinions masquerading as facts. You know, the online
thing.

~~~
travisporter
Hm, yeah. I do shudder when I think about how many times i've said "I read
online that... [HN comment]".

------
codingdave
> citing their apparent failure to show up and the company's inability to
> reach them. The workers provided evidence of their continuing correspondence
> with managers.

This sounds like a communication failure between the managers and the HR
department. Absolutely a problem, and people are right to be angered. But it
also sounds like one that could be quickly resolved, and their job status
restored.

------
almost_usual
I’m sure someone will bring up “but the Shanghai factory”, the truth is that
factory is operating under China COVID protocol.

If Tesla isn’t going to be held accountable or penalized for not enforcing
strict COVID safety protocol they won’t.

I guarantee they wouldn’t get away with this in Shanghai.

~~~
LMYahooTFY
Seems like a fairly accurate speculation, but like your dismissal of a
derisive comment about Shanghai in another post, I think you're omitting the
next logical topic to address: that of China's authority and governance.

I say omit because your posts seem to strongly imply that their compliance in
Shanghai is the more desirable outcome.

------
chrshawkes
Can't help but to think Elon Musk is a huge dick and possibly psychotic.

~~~
drcongo
This should really be the top comment on here, but it's getting downvoted.
Possibly because the diagnosis of mental illnesses at a distance is frowned
upon by the psychiatric community. The bit about him being a huge dick is
indisputable fact though.

~~~
rojcyk
I bet that if you two would have a conversation, and you would discuss all the
nuances of the situation, and you would actually get through the whole
reasonig, you would write a different comment.

~~~
drcongo
Me and the poster I was replying to? Or me and Elon Musk? The former I'd love
to have a conversation with, over a pint in a nice sunny pub garden. The
latter is a huge dick.

------
gre
I will continue my personal boycott of Tesla.

~~~
throwaway_jobs
Maybe the protestors that riot and loot will burn Tesla down using Musk’s “not
a flame thrower” the ultimate of ironies.

~~~
inawarminister
Such blood-thirst...

~~~
throwaway_jobs
I didn’t know property bleeds.

And either way I’m not advocating rioting/looting and certainly not arson,
just saying maybe it will happen and it would be ironic if Musk’s “not a
flamethrower” was used.

I’d be the first person to advocate for the people who got fired for refusing
to break the law at the direction of their CEO, but not violence or blood.

------
softsound
Considering their past, I'm not that surprised to be honest.

------
sbussard
Unpopular opinion: articles like this are just designed to shame people who
don’t buy into the popular opinion. Not even all medical experts agree on the
best course of action regarding herd immunity, sip, etc. For the other 5% of
the article, there could be other dynamics at play that got those employees
fired, though Tesla has a less than stellar reputation for work life balance.

~~~
emiliobumachar
I disagree. While this could still be an honest mistake, if done intentionally
it definitely goes beyond civil disobedience. Given the decision to reopen the
factory and terminate employees that do not show up, there's no justification
for misleading them about their options.

~~~
sbussard
Agreed. But the main content of the article was more about Covid 19 than the
employees, and it seems more like a piece to shape thoughts by reinforcing
ideas about public health policy than to discuss the employees’ welfare. More
shame than substance.

------
andrewtbham
I am long term Apple and Tesla shareholder. I have in the past freaked out
over stories in the media... remember antenna gate? What about when all Teslas
caught on fire?

My advice to anyone with any money, or any ambition to have any money. Is to
ignore these stories in the short term and take a long term view. They are
mostly bullshit. And for the fools that don't have any money... and want to
stay poor. Go ahead. Spread the bullshit. It increases wealth inequality...

~~~
Tepix
Take your own advice then: This is just one of many stories about Tesla not
treating its employees well. That should be your long term view by now.

If all you care about is money on the other hand don‘t pretend not to be.

~~~
andrewtbham
there are many stories... but they were debunked and you remember the
headline. You never see the retractions or the debunking.

Whatever happened to Martin Tripp?

~~~
Tepix
There's the USA Today report that workers at Tesla factories have suffered
more injuries than average. I haven't seen it being debunked. Have you?

[https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/12/tesla-gigafactory-safety-
pro...](https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/12/tesla-gigafactory-safety-problems-
detailed-by-usa-today.html)

[https://www.usatoday.com/in-
depth/news/investigations/2019/1...](https://www.usatoday.com/in-
depth/news/investigations/2019/11/12/tesla-gigafactory-brings-nevada-jobs-and-
housing-woes-worker-injuries-strained-ems/2452396001/)

(the second link doesn't work in the EU)

