

Stop Reading "Clients from Hell" - cruise02
http://numerosign.com/notebook/stop-reading-clients-from-hell

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kilian
First off, by all means, keep reading "clients from hell". If you're just
starting out, it's a great way to figure out what the red flags are when
dealing with prospects. If you've been going at it for a while, it's a massive
stress release to see that _it's not just you_.

That being said, whenever I get into discussing this, I tell about how I went
to my hairdresser (a fairly outspoken man) a while back, and while he was
cutting away, I asked if he could cut it a little more in the back. He replied
simply with 'no' (later explaining it). I accepted that in the instant,
recognizing the parallel, yet most people (web developers and non-web
developers alike) think I should've forced him to cut it as I asked. Some even
get angry when I suggest that my hairdresser could do anything he want (within
my given requirements), because I am paying him for his expertise. Their
reasoning is that because I pay them, they should do anything I tell them to.
I suspect therein lies the difference between bad clients and good clients.

~~~
ytinas
Well, he could have explained it differently, no? I personally would prefer
(and use myself) "I can if you like, but the problem will be..."

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rwhitman
I'll keep reading it.

Most of the quotes on CFH aren't simple "I want Papyrus font" snark, they're
unusual scenarios where clients weasel out of paying or have ludicrous
paranoia about hidden messages etc. They're not stories of typical 'roll your
eyes' font choice requests, thats why its funny and popular.

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petercooper
The writer seems to think that Clients From Hell is a little mean and
unhelpful because most clients are merely ignorant of Web design issues.

That's true, but it misses the real pain behind the stories. That is, that
most Web designers don't get the respect or autonomy they deserve (or,
perhaps, they don't _command_ it.) If I get a plumber round to fix something,
I'm not going to tell them what parts to use, what brand of pipes I like, or
insist on them using outdated concepts. I trust them to do the work. Most
people are that way.

With Web designers (and designers in general, really), people think that since
they can see the surface of the finished product, they have as much insight
into what works visually as the designer does. This is not true and this
ignorance is very hard to work around. There are some good clients out there,
but the "bad" ones are just worth ditching IMHO.

~~~
tptacek
Plumbers and designers aren't working with even remotely the same constraints.
The fact is, Papyrus and Copperplate move bingo card software, kobe burgers,
and designer handbags _just fine_. Many normal people even find those designs
attractive.

~~~
qeorge
Exactly. It all reminds me of the bit where the designer tells American
Airlines or Zappos they're idiots, and the company tries to explain that their
design is made to move shoes or airline tickets, not win design awards.

~~~
thechangelog
FWIW, the guy who criticized Zappos is the same person who put up Clients From
Hell.

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tptacek
My favorite part of this post: even the designer who is trying _so_. _hard_.
to empathize with "ignorant" customers still managed to suggest inflicting
hundreds of dollars of font licensing costs on the project (go price
Mariposa). But hey! At least you're not yet another website using Papyrus.

~~~
_delirium
Perhaps we need a "designers from hell". I'd put somewhere up there:
typography geek who insists on paying absurd sums for typefaces because
they're so _amazing_. But at least "insists on making your whole site in
Flash" seems to be on its way out.

~~~
tptacek
We just shelled out something sick for FF DIN for our website, because that's
what our designers spec'd. I'm not upset about it, because I'm a type geek,
but I'm not kidding myself that _any_ of my customers can tell it from Arial.

~~~
shrikant
(slightly OT) I was under the impression the DIN was public domain?

~~~
tptacek
There's an "open DIN", but FontFont's DIN sure as hell isn't public domain.

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27182818284
"and not only that but a tendency to overreact to a client’s innocent requests
or questions. Knock it off."

Maybe some of the CFH posts are overreactions, but I see way more posts that
aren't. For example, "Next time we meet, you might wear something a little
more low cut. We’ll get more done." I don't think that it is an overreaction
to call that a bad client. Complaining about fonts, white space, etc actually
seems to be the minority on CFH. Most posts now seem to be utterly absurd
examples, like the one I quoted above, or billing disputes.

The writer could have done a nice post reminding designers to be patient with
clients lacking design knowledge without even mentioning CFH.

~~~
odonnell
But then he wouldn't have made Hacker News.

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kloncks
It seems that most of the people replying are "Designers From Hell"

As a techie, I understand the frustration behind web designers not commanding
the amount of respect they truly deserve.

But, I agree 100% with this post. The author's very right.

There are many things that can be done to get more respect. Making fun of
'clients' behind their back is not only low, it also does absolutely nothing
to better the situation. If anything, it makes it slightly worse.

~~~
simonk
4 of the 10 posts on the main page are about being ripped off. People see TV
and movies and think it works like that in real life, I don't think its a
problem you can fix. Having a little site to see other people facing the same
issues is nice.

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jacquesm
Fonts are overrated. As long as the message comes across and it doesn't cause
acute eye-strain I think that the only people that really can get upset about
fonts are designers.

I've never had an end user complain about any font, but I remember two
designers arguing for days on end which font (visually next to
indistinguishable) we should use.

It's worse than programmers arguing about editors.

~~~
techiferous
I think design in general is overrated. Sure it adds value, but it's rarely
pivotal to the success of a project. Take Google for example. Its logo is
mediocre. It's the software that adds most of the value.

~~~
eagleal
I don't think so. Google's UI is actually a well designed one,the Google's
brand too. By design here you're meaning fancy graphics.

~~~
techiferous
Yes, you're right. I need to clarify what I meant. Usability can make or break
a product; I'm talking about aesthetics.

I'm also talking about designers who are unable to differentiate between (1)
the business value of their work and (2) the aesthetic value and artistic
skill that it demonstrates.

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sophacles
I don't get it. The plumbers and electricians and other such people don't
behave any different. Go to your nearest "working mans bar" or union hall or
whatnot. You'll hear those guys joking about the same crap, the "diy"ers, and
so on. It doesn't happen on a web page, but you can bet when they aren't face-
to-face with the customer, they are mocking him.

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Atanvarno
While I agree with the article itself, some clients I had a misfortune to work
with, really are from hell. Especially the sort that comes up with criminally
bad UI rules and even after I spent days trying to explain why that would be
detriment to their business, they keep insisting on it. So I build it and
after 6 months they come back "GA tracking shows up that our registration
process is completed in less than 10% of cases. This is really low, you need
to do something". Yes, I do, I can yank all the shit stuff you made me put
there in the first place.

These kind of clients go hand in hand with <http://managersfromhell.com/>
which have no idea how to stop them doing that crap from happening.

