

Why cant we find "our guy"?? - dmlevi

So startup looking for "our guy", the right developer to take on our great idea. I cant begin to describe my frustration with trying to find someone. This is not just another equity job, we have some seed money and we have all the right connections to Angel and VC investors. Through all of our networking and interviewing, we still have not been able to find "our guy". Some developers thought the idea was too big and turned it down because its not their niche, others dont have time, etc. My intentions were never to ask HN for for this as I thought I would be able to find someone easily, but I wanted to reach out to all of you to see if you have any advice or if anyone is interested in hearing more.<p><i>UPDATE</i><p>The idea is a new travel site. We need help getting our vision to beta. We can offer a contracted cost with milestones plus equity depending on your level of experience and your current work load.<p>contact dmlevi[AT]GMAIL
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tauv
Maybe the idea is too big for the incentives you are offering?

What is the right developer?

A lot of start-ups are still looking for that all singing braniac super rock
ninja star developer who can program 10 times as fast as everyone else.

But often they aren't willing to pay 10 times as much, or even a reasonable
amount.

Keep in mind if you can't afford to pay a developer to work full time, then
you need to pay them enough to make sacrificing a large portion of their
social and family life in pursuit of seeing your idea succeed.

Also think about how you are pitching the idea. These guys are investors too,
they are investing their time, years of experience, wisdom and hard graft into
your idea. They need to believe that this will succeed if they push it hard
enough.

Worst cases:

Your idea sucks - don't listen to nay-sayers so keep going even if everyone
else says it won't work. Dont stop till you are ready too

Your idea is too big - break it into something smaller and more achievable

~~~
dmlevi
Well said. We did break it down to MVP. One reason it was turned down because
the developer did not want to sign an NDA. We are not looking for a ninja
braniac haha although that would be nice. We just want someone that is ready
to join the team ;) They will paid for the job with equity incentives.

~~~
scottyallen
Get used to developers not wanting to sign NDAs. We've had it banged into our
heads again and again that we shouldn't be signing NDAs, particularly when
just starting to talk with someone about their project. Besides, it'll be good
practice when you pitch to VCs - they don't sign NDAs either:)

~~~
dmlevi
We understand there are a million great ideas and its all execution but whats
to stop a developer from saying "wow thats a great idea, I dont need them"
When you are approaching a VC you already have eyes and a revenue model. They
are already too late. I hear you and we are open to sharing our ideas without
NDA's through personal connections. We have shared with developers that are
connected in Chicago land area and if we could get a personal connection we
dont have a problem with that.

~~~
scottyallen
The counter argument to that is "Great idea - what other value are you going
to bring to the table?" For me, being asked to sign an NDA is often a signal
that they don't have anything else unique to bring to the table, which is
usually a recipe for failure. Instead, there should be some other reason why
this idea will only succeed if you do it. Some good ones are personal domain
expertise, access to partnerships, access to distribution channels,
design/marketing skills, etc.

If all you bring to the table is an idea, than to be honest, the developer
probably doesn't need you.

~~~
dmlevi
Well we were trying to stay modest but heres why we make great parnters.

1 - Our Education. MBA Students from University of Chicago Booth. Ranked top 5
MBA every year. The network is extremely strong and we have all the
connections a startup could need.

2 - We have seed $. We can pay you to bang out the MVP in no more than 6 weeks
with a nice equity bonus. We are looking for a partner.

3 - We are good guys. We want to make it and we think this is it. Simple as
that. Its not this is my idea, do this or do that. The developer will be a
partner and have insight and say. We hope to sell and then move on as a team
to the next job.

~~~
scottyallen
Not to belabor the point, but none of the three things you listed are unique
to you. They're the same three things that every other entrepreneur that's
looking for an engineer or CTO is saying to prospective candidates.

None of these three points say anything about what you bring to the table that
the engineer couldn't find anywhere else (ie, domain knowledge, partnerships,
distribution, etc). Once you figure that part out, you won't need the NDA,
because it would be a bonehead move to try and build it without you. Not to
mention, your likelihood of success will go up dramatically.

Just my 2 cents...

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humj
You mention a "big idea" and use the startup "team" rhetoric, but that's all
par for the course. Think about all the signals you're giving off. Others have
mentioned here already what the NDA signals. Contract-based pricing and vague
equity incentives feels a lot like you're looking to outsource development of
a huge project for too little return despite the "team" rhetoric, even if
that's not your intention.

Options:

1\. if you're looking for "your guy", (s)he needs to REALLY be part of the
team. Don't tip-toe around it with vague incentives, contract-based pricing
and NDAs. These things signal inconfidence.

2\. Become "your guy". Or at least try. Shw that you're hustling and that this
thing will get made with or without "your guy".

~~~
dmlevi
Humj thanks for your insight. You should understand my business partner and I
are new to this. We have been reading posts for HN for a few months now trying
to feel out the community. Although it seems my statement seems vague, dont
mistake it for not being confident. Its purely two MBA's taking a leap. If we
had development skills this wouldnt be a problem then would it? Part of the
reason for finding "my guy" and your correct could be a woman too, is that we
want to partner with a developer. I think you've mistaken my post. When I post
an actual offer I will take this advice and not tip-toe. An NDA to us more
like a pre-nup. Think of this way, we dont think anything is gonna happen but
its there just incase? How can you argue against that as a developer? Im
trying to learn here which is why I posted this so I value your opinion.

~~~
dmlevi
Also I did not say this was a "big idea", thats what developers have said to
us that we pitched it too...

~~~
humj
I'm aware these may not be your intentions, as I stated in my post. I'm
saying, be sure to step outside and think honestly about how it comes across
to someone who isn't familiar with your or your business.

~~~
dmlevi
Ya, personally I dont feel good about the NDA either. I can understand how it
comes off but I think developers should also put themselves in our shoes. I
only send it when its someone Im dealing with online or someone that I dont
have a personal connection with. I have pitched to a few developers in Chicago
based off personal connections because there is no need to worry.
Unfortunately it seems as HN is against this but I still have not heard a good
enough argument to prove me otherwise. Its unfortunate that developers are
judgmental when asked to sign an NDA, however I can see how it can come
across. Im def thinking outside the box but at the same time, taking
precautionary measures to ensure sustaining our intangible value.

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maxdemarzi
David, it sucks to be in your position and I can sympathize. Most of us
developers suck at UI/UX design and end up looking for "our guy/gal" designer
too... and we don't have any money either.

A 21 month University of Chicago Booth MBA runs about 160k (
<http://www.chicagobooth.edu/fulltime/admissions/costs.aspx> ), two of those
is 320k. For just another 30k (10% more than you are already in debt/paid for)
you could probably find a development shop to do an MVP. But 5k -10k on
E-lance isn't going to do it. ( <http://www.elance.com/j/levine-group-
llc/24158220/> )

~~~
dmlevi
Ya haha we realized that which is why we reached out on HN. You make a really
good point. Thanks for your feedback.

~~~
dmlevi
Actually student loans is one of the best ways to borrow money. Very good
point, we will look into this.

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hoodoof
The answer is that you are looking for the wrong sort of person. You are
looking for perfection and someone awesome.

You should be trying to find a good junior/graduate and spend your seed money
on giving them a full time job.

They will make mistakes, not do it the best way or the right way, but if you
work closely with them then SOMETHING will get built, enough to prove your
concept in the market. When your concept succeeds then you will have the money
to employ someone more expensive to do it right.

Change your expectation and you will then find the right person.

~~~
dmlevi
Thanks for the insight. We are working the IT department at UChicago so
hopefully that will work out for us. We appreciate your input.

~~~
hoodoof
Universities are not the best source for finding juniors and graduates. Put a
job ad on a major job board to find them.

Your next challenge is to be able to work out which of the many people who
apply can get the job done.

Your primary mechanism for this, after shortlisting/initial interviews, is for
each graduate to do a 1 day practical exercise to pull together a simple CRM
app that allows creation and browsing of client details. They should have a
week notice to prepare themselves for this before doing the test at your
office.

You should pay them a straight salary, at the lowest end of the market. Forget
anything complex and don't even talk about equity until they have proven
themselves invaluable.

~~~
dmlevi
Monster.com? We never considered that route but It cant hurt to post. I like
your thought process. We have a developer from Orbitz on board that will help
translate the "simple CRM app" haha ;) but thank you. Do you know what a
salary should be for low end market right now? $20hr?

After reading HN for 3 months, I got the feeling developers enjoyed working
for an equity bonus. But then again if this is not a partner then that doesnt
make sense. Very useful stuff, thanks for your time.

~~~
hoodoof
>>>Very useful stuff, thanks for your time.

The price of the advice....... if you find someone using this approach then
please do a "Tell HN:" post explaining how you used this approach to find the
first developer for your startup.

~~~
dmlevi
consider it done.

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kylelibra
Maybe a brief description of "your idea" would be helpful for the discussion?

~~~
dmlevi
Its a new travel site. We need help bringing the idea to beta so we can test
the market. The site will include the right travel API that we can use to
customize the data anyway we want. We have a developer from Orbitz on board,
he just does not have the time to develop this. We are looking for a sign up
page, a results page and an email page. The beta is very simple and less
dynamic than the big vision.

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petervandijck
1\. NDA

2\. You are likely not paying enough.

