
Booted out of Bootup Labs - livejamie
http://livejamie.com/post/522093261/booted-out-of-bootup-labs
======
cperciva
When I saw this title, my immediate thought was "hmm, I wonder if this is
about Bootup Labs?"

I've met the people behind Bootup Labs, and I like them. They're smart.
They're enthusiastic about what they're doing. But I was never really
convinced that they were able to make things work financially. I've seen
enough startups that I can usually tell when a startup is running on fumes and
spending all their energy on trying to raise more funding... and that's the
vibe I've been getting from Bootup Labs for a while. Not really a good vibe to
have coming from a group with the raison d'etre of _providing_ funding.

On behalf of Canadians in general and Vancouverites especially: We're really
sorry about this. Nobody should have to go through what happened to you. We
hope you'll come back some day under better circumstances.

~~~
mikeyur
I second this, Vancouver is really sorry and we hope you will come back and
visit.

~~~
apphacker
What I learned from this blog post is that I need to visit Vancouver someday.

~~~
potatolicious
I grew up there, and please do, because after living in a bunch of other
cities nothing quite measures up.

You have _no_ idea how depressing it is to live a stone's throw away in
Seattle - it's like wallowing in a pit of mud right outside the gates to Eden.
No offense to Seattleites, but your city blows in comparison.

------
DanBlake
Danny, one of the bootuplabs founders just posted this comment on the post.

/////////////

This is not how it went down Jamie. After everything that we did for you and
Steven, I'm shocked at how you have twisted the truth for PR reasons.

\- you were in our office for 2 months, not 3.

\- you program is 5%-15% for $150k over 8 months

\- you received $6k over that 2 months

\- we received nothing in return.

\- we paid your legal fees.

\- we introduced you to many people who you can still call on today.

We are not out of money, we just closed a round. It was a condition of their
investment that we let you go.

Yes, it wasn't an ideal situation, and we didn't plan on it working out this
way. But in the end, I made sure that you got the better end the deal

/////////////

Sad to see them trying to argue over facts when these guys moved across the
country and gave up everything to be there, then they act like they should be
happy to have even had the chance. Wow.

~~~
livejamie
My response which I posted:

Hey Danny.

I apologize that you feel like I'm twisting the truth.

It was the last week in January until the end of last Month. While we were
there 3 months of the year, you are correct 2 months would be more accurate,

I was just getting the $100k off of the Bootup website, I understood that we
got $150k, but that $50k went back to Bootup, is that not what the original
terms were?

You did pay our rent and our legal fees to get incorporated. I mentioned the
rent, but I didn't mention the legal fees. I apologize.

I didn't suggest that Bootup was closing down or was out of money.

I wouldn't suggest that I got the better end of the deal as it was extremely
expensive to move to and live in Vancouver.

I wish you all well.

~~~
awolf
>I didn't suggest that Bootup was closing down or was out of money.

The title of this posting is "Moved to Canada to participate in a startup
incubator that had no money"...

~~~
livejamie
<http://i.imgur.com/cXxdv.png>

~~~
anshul
Can we please not do that, at least here on HN? A direct link[1] to the
comment in question would be better for a number of reasons.

[1] <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1266864>

------
dannyr
From [http://blog.bootuplabs.com/2010/04/14/wertz-joins-board-
firs...](http://blog.bootuplabs.com/2010/04/14/wertz-joins-board-first-
funding-completed-portfolio-reduced/)

"We supplied a great deal of support and value to the 7 companies over the
first 2 months of our 2010 cohort, and we received nothing in return for the 4
companies that were cut"

It seems like they are implying that the 4 companies somehow owe them
something.

~~~
fnid2
The more of these kinds of comments I read, the more I feel sick. The first
time I met one of the founders of Bootup Labs, this was when I was fairly new
to Vancouver, I got a deep upsetting feeling in my stomach. I felt the same
kind of energy from others involved in meetups they put together. They used to
hang around workspace as well.

Someone introduced me to a bootup labs person and within just a few sentences
I knew these characters were to be avoided. It is difficult for me to
rationalize these feelings in ways that can help stop the bad future I see
that makes me have these feelings. I don't want to share the feelings, because
they are just feelings. I try to only share opinions I can rationalize,
because I don't want to be wrong about a negative feeling if the person is
actually good and I'm wrong in my assessment.

It's like when I interacted with them, I saw how the compounding negativity of
their influence was going to affect the startup community in Vancouver. My
feeling made me want to stay far, far away from anyone involved in bootup labs
or involved with them or their "groups". I want a _good_ group to be seen as
the leader in Vancouver, but it's almost like the stage has been set there and
it was designed by bootup labs.

I don't know where the impressions like these come from. I don't know why I
have them or how exactly I knew bootup labs was going to turn out badly.

In Texas, there is a saying, "All hat and no cattle." I don't know if there is
a similar expression in BC or not, but it's like I can tell that what they
were saying was intended to "sell" those who simply didn't know enough to
steer clear of them. The bootup labs people are great at sales and giving the
impression of power, certainty, and success -- but I never saw any of it.

I want to help people steer clear of individuals like this, but people who say
negative stuff about others are often themselves looked down upon. Moms say,
"If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all." Well,
sometimes, keeping your mouth shut can itself have negative repercussions.

As someone who is still struggling with how to properly behave in social
situations, how am I to react when I am confronted by a situation like this?

~~~
api
I feel your pain, man.

I was involved years ago with a group of individuals in a different industry.
We were working on some advanced machine learning stuff. It was really cool,
and the tech was going somewhere. We were getting market interest too from
some big players.

I ended up cutting and walking away. Basically I burned several years of work
in the process (I designed almost all the tech), and was left with debts that
I'm just now getting rid of.

Getting away from the folks I was working with was worth more to me than any
of the possibilities that were on the horizon. I also had a strong feeling
that if it was a success that I would see none of it, so there was a bit of
plain old self-interest too.

"All hat and no cattle" is pretty good. The one guy running the whole thing
was, I think, a pure psychopath. I was actually afraid of him for a while,
thinking that he might come some night and kill me and my family.

He was charismatic as hell and really, really good at projecting an aura of
limitless success and at getting people interested, but nothing ever panned
out. He was surrounded by slimy opportunists and clueless followers. I was one
of the latter for a while. He had a way of stroking your ego and making you
feel powerful, when really you were just being used.

Since then, I now have a real sense for such people and such arrangements and
can sort of smell them. Like you, I can't really describe it. It's a bit of
too-good-to-be-true and a bit of too-slick and a bit of... some ancient animal
threat response.

I've never been to Vancouver or met any of the principals involved in this
story, so I really can't comment directly. But your "sense" may indeed be
accurate. I sure know that smell now.

Unfortunately, the startup world and the larger tech industry is absolutely
crawling with these reptiles.

My advice? Just steer clear. You can't really do much else. You can't go
around badmouthing people, as it just makes you sound like a jerk and could
also attract legal harassment. Surround yourself with people who aren't slimy,
and avoid even those who are unfortunate enough to be in the orbit of
slimeballs. All you can really do for people like them (and like I was years
ago!) is to wait and hope they come to their senses. If they are your friends,
you might be able to tell them or hint at them... but it's really just as bad
as when someone you know is dating someone awful.

------
rdl
[http://blog.bootuplabs.com/2010/04/14/wertz-joins-board-
firs...](http://blog.bootuplabs.com/2010/04/14/wertz-joins-board-first-
funding-completed-portfolio-reduced)

I'm not really sure how I feel about this. It seems like they behaved pretty
reasonably for a regular company, but as a fiduciary, they probably should
have held off and not funded anyone without funds in the bank, vs. relying on
a mid-term capital call. (I wonder who bailed on the capital call and why)

After this, I would probably be reluctant to move to Vancouver based on their
line of credit promise unless I could see the funds in escrow; a LoC of $100k
should mean $100k in an account I control, with equity going to them based on
how much I withdraw. If they were Sequoia I'd be willing to accept a promise,
but clearly how they have demonstrated they have pretty limited resources.

They at least seem fairly transparent about everything, so it's not
dishonesty, merely bad judgment.

~~~
rdl
I'm also curious why 4/7 were cut -- was it that they were mediocre
teams/products that Wertz didn't want to fund, or was it just that you ran out
of money in the bridge period? It seems unlikely to me the latter, or you
would have tried to structure some kind of bridge (or asked the teams to do
this themselves by not drawing on the line of credit, which seems to be your
only marginal cash expense per team). How else would you pick which companies
to keep vs. eject?

I'm not trying to be a dick, but when you burn people (even unintentionally or
with the best of intentions), it makes it harder for everyone else to do
deals.

------
puredemo
What a horror story. What sort of program offers $100k to that many groups and
doesn't follow through? "Whoops, we were $500k short."

That goes beyond just being embarrassing.

~~~
cperciva
_What sort of program offers $100k to that many groups and doesn't follow
through?_

Not to be facetious, but: A program which doesn't have as much money as
they're offering people.

The founders of Bootup Labs put some of their own money in, but they're
raising money (or trying, at least) from VCs for the rest. They're paying
themselves [EDIT: or not -- see reply from dannyrobinson below] from the
$50k/startup management fee, not just from expected future profits.

Are there any other startup accelerators which do things this way? I'm not
aware of any.

~~~
dannyrobinson
As a manager of Bootup, I can assure you that we haven't been personally paid
anything. The $50k is funnelled through the company to maximize canadian tax
credits, which can amount to a meaningful amount of money. And it's used to
pay for rent, legal, accounting, and other services that are for the benefit
of the startup.

~~~
apphacker
You shouldn't have accepted companies that you couldn't afford to pay. You
shouldn't have asked them to move to a different country. Very reckless and
irresponsible and to then attack the poster as "twisting the truth" about tiny
details seems even worse to me. You should be sorry. You should show some
humility.

~~~
shadowsun7
I agree completely with apphacker. Being evil or unfair on the Internet is
anathema to a (web) startup-related enterprise. 3 out of 7 startups funded is
ridiculous. With this hitting the HN community, your best hope is that all
three of those startups make it big, or you've just lost whatever credibility
you have (with startups that count).

Good luck.

~~~
libretard
Perhaps in the interests of total transparency on this, Bootup should come
clean and reveal precisely how the so-called "Management Fee" is disbursed
going forward?

$50K for 8 months is a lot of rent and accounting services.

If the Management Fee pays for the managers' salaries, like Danny and Boris
Wertz, then they are not necessarily incentivized to have quality startups in
each cohort... more important to Bootup in that circumstance is having enough
startups to cover their overhead in each 8 month cycle.

~~~
mikeyur
Boris Wertz is a Vancouver VC who now invests in Bootup, Boris Mann is a
founder of Bootup Labs. Just wanted to clear that up.

------
livejamie
I shouldn't have said that Bootup Labs had "no money" - I should have put "no
money for us."

I'm not trying to suggest that Bootup Labs is bankrupt or anything, I
apologize.

~~~
qq66
That makes it so much worse. If they were bankrupt, they would have had no
choice but to send you packing. To break their promise to you to raise
additional capital is a super-dick move and I hope that future startup
founders don't make the mistake you did. Thank you for warning the community.

------
mikeyur
Jamie, I have a friend at Digg who is trying to contact you. They're looking
for designers, if you're interested in a job.

~~~
livejamie
I responded to their DM, thank you very much!

------
jamesshamenski
Boo the VC's in this one!

The investors of BootupLabs did not have confidence in 57% of their latest
pool of startups. i wonder why they invested at all if they dont fully back
their judgement?

Here's what probably happened, I bet the investors squeezed Boris and Danny
with the alternative option being closing their doors early on all 7
companies. Sometimes VC's do evil things to extract more ownership in last
minute negotiations (knowing very well that BuL was out of cash). I bet Boris
and Danny would have wanted to follow through.

~~~
gyardley
I can't speak for every investor in this incubator but Boris Wertz of W Media
Ventures has money in my own startup and I've always found him to be an
upstanding, helpful guy - First Round Capital introduced him to me and I've
always been grateful for that. I wouldn't particularly call Boris a VC, though
- more of a large angel, investing the money he made from the startup he
founded himself.

It's a bad idea to slight individuals you don't know anything about just
because you think they belong to a generic 'VC' category.

~~~
jamesshamenski
A lower tide sinks all boats.

I hear you when you say it's bad to slight individuals you don't know anything
about. I am very familiar with Boris Wertz (through multiple friends of
friends) and the good he has done for the small Vancouver tech scene. However,
this is a massive blow in the effort to encourage tech companies to establish
a presence in Vancouver (effecting the Vancouver VC recruiting pool). Some
other city will be drinking Vancouver's Milkshake.

------
mikeyur
Bootup Labs has posted their side of the story on their blog:

[http://blog.bootuplabs.com/2010/04/14/wertz-joins-board-
firs...](http://blog.bootuplabs.com/2010/04/14/wertz-joins-board-first-
funding-completed-portfolio-reduced/)

~~~
keltecp11
"Bootup is back on solid ground and ready to continue it’s role as a leading
North American Seed Accelerator."

VERY bold statement.

~~~
realitycheques
Solid ground? Give us a break... they're turning on the reality distortion
field, again!

------
dedward
Can I just say that the fact that either party here is duking this out in a
public forum is just..... unprofessional? Especially from the VC firm itself?

I suppose I'm a newcomer to this "VC/incubator/startup" community - but in any
other life situation, when I decide to pack up and move somewhere far away, I
make sure I have stuff in writing, and cash in the bank, and all my i's dotted
and t's crossed before I quit my old job and jump on a plane. I also make
sure, as best I can, that expectations are the same on both sides. I don't see
why this is any different whether it's VC capital for some wild idea or a
serious business proposal or just a plain old job somewhere else... what ever
happened to common sense?

~~~
cperciva
_Can I just say that the fact that either party here is duking this out in a
public forum is just..... unprofessional?_

Perhaps a bit unprofessional, but I'm personally glad it happens. The
startup/VC world is all about reputation, and anything which moves the world
from "talk to your friends at other startups and find out if they know
anything about X" to "google for X and find out what people are saying about
it" is a good thing for startups who are less than fully connected in the
gossip network. Think of this as the natural continuation of what thefunded
started.

Of course, as a Vancouverite I'm sad that it's Bootup Labs which is getting a
bad reputation like this. :-/

~~~
9oliYQjP
Quite honestly YC is the only one of these kinds of ventures that I trust. And
even in the case of YC, if I were to advise a budding pair of young
entrepreneurs, I'd tell them to move back in with their parents for a year,
get a low skill but high paying job to give them sustenance money (e.g.,
bartend or barista), and focus on implementing their idea. There are nice YC
value adds like being introduced to influential folks. But part of being a
business person is finding a way to get to these folks anyway. Why pay for
this service when you can get them for free?

So many startup folks are attracted to these kinds of programs because I think
they mimic the illusion of safety that school offered. You have to be
"accepted" and it's not a venture but a "program". Everything is geared
towards creating this sense of safety without pointing out you are giving up a
lot for it. Know why these programs want to save you the hassle of doing your
own incorporation paperwork that took me a day to figure out when I was a
teenager? Because they have to put clauses in that will help them, not you.

Again, I'm not saying these ventures are sinister. But you can get by without
them and in fact may become a better business person for it.

~~~
realitycheques
The differences is that the YC founders are successful entrepreneurs who made
money for their investors before YC and since.

Google the history of Spinway, bankruptcy, then sold, Peerflix-a VC fire sale,
Bryght-private sale for loss then shut down.

------
lyime
One would thing that it would be standard practice that they give you a term
sheet on acceptance. As soon as you sign the term sheet, money should be
transfered. At the end of the day they are investing in your company, and term
sheets are typical. This is how YC works.

Sorry to hear about your experience.

------
vancouver
The fact that the Managing Director of Bootup would confront allegations in a
public forum does not bode well for his organization.

I would hope day to day business decisions at Bootup are not done in the same
manner. It is ,at best, completely unprofessional.

~~~
ericd
Why do you say that? It might open them up to some sort of liability (I don't
know either way), but as long as they watch their tongue, I think it reflects
well on the company to be so transparent.

~~~
vancouver
I couldn't disagree with you more. Discussions of this sort should be done at
the very least on the phone. The airing of dirty laundry, if that may be the
case, is best not done on a message board. Comments are taken out of context,
misquoted etc ... It is at best ill advised. While transparency is paramount
that is not what this is --- banter about such matters on an open forum is to
say the least petty and completely unprofessional.

------
jbox
Acquisition, investment or acceptance into an incubator are all great things
but don't build your startup in such a way that success is dependant upon
them.

Ultimately, your success will depend on one thing - you. Build your business
for profitably and don't count on money until it's safely cleared in your
account.

~~~
minalecs
i wish I could upvote this sentiment more. I've also been accepted into an
incubator, but had I been declined, I still would of moved forward with
release, and marketing plan. After being accepted, I've adjusted my schedule
some, but still on track regardless. To me it seems that Jamie is giving up on
something that if he truly believed in it, he should continue even now after
finding a real job and getting back on his feet. For this reason, it makes me
feel that maybe Bootup made the right decision. Regardless its a terrible
situation for everyone involved.

~~~
trevelyan
Sad, but I agree. Be curious to hear why the investors wanted to invest In the
first place if the idea isn't good enough to keep the founders committed when
they hit this sort of minor setback. And weren't they working on the business
for two-plus months in Vancouver? No demo? No prototype? No sense of next
steps?

~~~
realitycheques
likely little meaningful assistance when the fund manager is in panic mode
scrambling to raise money...

------
livejamie
This has been written about on RWW now:

How to Burn Bridges with Bootup Labs and Other Investors

[http://www.readwriteweb.com/start/2010/04/how-to-burn-
bridge...](http://www.readwriteweb.com/start/2010/04/how-to-burn-bridges.php)

~~~
apu
This is one of the most one-sided articles I've seen on RWW. Of all the
comments here, they choose this one?

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1266864>

And they mentioned Robinson's "This is not how it went down" comment without
the main substance of his post (which consisted only of small quibbles) -- or
the responses to it.

And does the fact that there was a "a heavy hitting roster" backing Bootup
make what was done any more excusable?

~~~
realitycheques
Makes it worse! Think about it... would you let your name be used this way,
and/or associate with a company that you wouldn't put your own money in when
it was badly needed?

------
jfarmer
It sounds like Bootup Labs wasn't able to draw down on some of their LPs. So,
it's not nefarious, but it would make me think twice before accepting (the
promise of) money from Bootup Labs.

It ain't real 'till the money's in the bank.

~~~
realitycheques
There are no lPs. Bootup is/was a VCC.

------
bandhunt
That really sucks! But dude, why give up on the idea? you're selling the
domain and moving on? Incubators aren't necessary.. keep plugging away and
launch anyway.

~~~
livejamie
Hey Brad,

I'm just in survival mode at the moment, living on my parent's couch at the
moment with negative money in my bank account. I need to sell some things to
try to get back on my feet again - that's why I'm seeing if I can sell these
domains.

~~~
karjaluoto
With all due respect Jamie, if you're in it, you're in it.

My suggestion (for what it's worth) is that you put this behind you and find a
way to make it happen. If you choose not to, you probably weren't going to
make a go of it anyway.

You got a raw deal, and that's clear to anyone. Now get back to work on your
startup. This can be a roadblock or a speedbump; you choose.

~~~
karjaluoto
I'm curious--why the downvote?

Isn't this just the sort of test we've all faced at some point in our startup
efforts?

------
elai
Why did bootup labs offer funding that is almost 7 to 10 times the 'industry'
standard? It's disappointing that an incubator close to home really wasn't.

~~~
realitycheques
well this is most likely because they have no experience in how to finance or
run a venture fund of any size.

------
vancity
More on Vancouver's Techvibes.com...

[http://www.techvibes.com/blog/bootup-labs-20-now-with-
more-m...](http://www.techvibes.com/blog/bootup-labs-20-now-with-more-money-
and-less-startups)

~~~
apu
_But now with Boris Wertz on board, new funding secured, and the spotlight of
this story, there is no doubt that due diligence on all sides will improve and
the next cohort of startups will be better than ever._

Hmm, ok.

 _Disclosure: Boris Wertz is an investor in Techvibes Media Inc._

Surprise, surprise.

~~~
cperciva
_Surprise, surprise._

I doubt Boris Wertz pulled any strings to get the positive spin from Techvibes
-- my impression is that Techvibes would find a way to give a positive spin to
"meteor headed for Vancouver, is expected to destroy city".

~~~
apu
Sure, I didn't mean to imply any particular chain of causality -- just the
fact that there is virtually no value in a positive article from Techvibes
given their financial conflict-of-interest in this story.

~~~
realitycheques
A one-sided, unresearched, fluff article.

------
paulgb
From @bootuplabs on twitter:

> HI all: we're moving up the blog post we were going to put up tomorrow to
> this eve - please stand by

~~~
faramarz
All Canadian startup hopefuls are/will be watching for an official response
closely.

------
chegra84
I find the weird part about this is you are selling your domains. I vote no
for this move. Find another way to make that cash but keep your domain and
your co-founder.

If these guys at bootlab accepted you, there is a high probability that
someone else would too.

[who knows post a donation page and see where it goes. I think most of us here
knows what survival mode is like, so would be sympathetic to your cause]

------
rdl
How hard is it to set up a Vancouver startup independently, if you have 2-3 US
citizens who want to relocate? Assume you have $100-200k of your own funding.

Gaming the tax credits seems like it takes a bit of effort, but lowers the
effective tax rate substantially below even Nevada.

~~~
9oliYQjP
Starting a company in Canada among 2 or 3 people is easy. I should know
because I did it when I was a teenager. It cost me $15 for some incorporation
templates, $150 for a name search report showing potentially similar company
names to the one I wanted to start, and $350 or so in government fees. This
got me a company incorporated provincially. You can do it federally too but
it's a bit more complex. If you have as much money as you claim you could
probably emigrate to Canada in a special business class meant specifically for
people starting businesses here.

Starting businesses is easy as pie. If you have enough money to sustain the
business before it brings in revenue then I'm not sure what the attraction is
to these sort of ventures. If your execution is good then VCs will hear you
out regardless of whether you've been "accepted" into a program like this.
They may facilitate introductions but there are also government funded
programs here in Canada that do not charge money which will do the same.

Tax rates for people smart enough to start businesses in Canada are fairly
attractive. It is especially so when you factor in healthcare costs or lack-
there-of. However one thing to bear in mind is that it is often a severe
hassle an American company to exit an investment in a Canadian company. In
some cases it would require 900 signatures of limited partners in the American
company and for each to file Canadian income taxes. Google "Section 116
foreign investment". It is something the government here is tackling in a bid
to spur VC investment in Canada. But there are still some gotchas (and
benefits) to starting a company here.

~~~
rdl
I like accelerators for two reasons: 1) Having a same-time-founded cohort of
companies. Moral support, entertainment, and when ~80% of them fail, you can
pick and choose assets (great developers) having great visibility into them.

2) I like the idea of accelerators for people with $0 and just out of college
or high school, or who need structure. If I could give 5% of my company to
give an accelerator a win (both in money upside and reputation), I'd do it,
especially if I were in a third-tier city like Vancouver which deserves a
second tier startup population.

~~~
rdl
(I saw I got voted down and should explain)

I think the odds of failure at 50-80%, including my own company, and having a
bunch of ready ways to re-deploy those people into other projects is good for
EVERYONE -- the engineers can move to the most successful projects. If I
worked on something for a year or two and it flopped, I'd love to go work at a
startup I'd been following the whole time, rather than trying to find a
regular job.

I think SFBA in general is basically an incubator/accelerator, if you've been
involved in one startup even as an engineer. Formal accelerators help a lot
more in places where most of the people who want to do a startup have NOT yet
worked for one. College would be the best example.

------
djb_hackernews
Was it ever mentioned that this could be an outcome of coming to Vancouver?
Either side hasn't said.

------
benologist
Wow that story really sucks.

------
stevederico
everything happens for a reason, I am sure you will create something create
after this.

~~~
paul9290
Not sure why this was downvoted. It's a little negative, but I do agree from
this experience and you blogging about Jamie something better will come along!

Good luck and is the weather in Phoenix still "100 and above it's a scorcher
out there" :) ? You emailed me this summer re: my start-up. Good luck!

~~~
viraptor
I downvoted it, because I see it as a stupid comment for situations where
something (partly) out of your control happens and you lose. "It's going to be
ok" from a friend is nice then, but a comment that "Everything happens for a
reason" from a stranger is just weird. Not only he agrees that the bad thing
was supposed to happen, he implies that he knows there was "a greater plan"
and that he has some knowledge about the whole situation that allows him to
predict your future. I hate this phrase, because it's complete BS.

So yeah - downvoted for personal reasons ;)

Good luck to the guys.

~~~
marilyn
Above livejamie has found himself a potential opportunity with Digg.

Bad situations always leave room for learning, growth and positive outcomes,
so long as you are willing to look at it from a positive perspective.

------
keltecp11
Why this has not been bumped up more I have no idea... Fuck man... that is
fucking horrible. When I first got into DreamIt Ventures, all of my attorneys
and family and friends said the same thing... are you sure? What is the
paperwork like?

The Paperwork was 2 PAGES! I was in law school at the time, I was looking at
paper work of contracts that were a minimum of 26 pages!!! And 2 get 2 pages?!
Unreal... and quite scary. We took a gamble... we signed the documents.

Left MORE questions thn answers... by far. Fortunately, my god, I never
realized how lucky we were.

I'll keep my eye out for something that will pay.

Do you have any contracts from them? I'd like to see. Post them on DocStoc.

I do not know Canadian Law, but I know someone who might. Not that I could
represent... but I'm curious to see if you might have some legal action!

Embarrassed or not - that is bull shit.

-P

