
Ask HN: Would you donate directly to poor Kenyans? - pw
Hi, all. After seeing the work of GiveDirectly (https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.givedirectly.org), I started playing around with getting in touch directly with poor Kenyans and, thanks to the magic of Olx (basically the international Craigslist), WhatsApp, and M-PESA (Kenya&#x27;s electronic money transfer system), I&#x27;ve managed to find and send money to a number of needy individuals.<p>While I haven&#x27;t been able to reach the very poorest Kenyans, I&#x27;ve been able to reach Kenyans living on $100-$300&#x2F;month, and sending them small amounts of money (low hundreds of dollars) has been absolutely life changing for them. Moreover, I&#x27;ve formed some really amazing and perspective-altering relationships. And it&#x27;s injected a lot of meaning into my life to, say, send the single-mother $300 a month, so she can &quot;live very comfortably&quot; (her words) by renting a single room on a dirt road for her and her daughter.<p>So, would anyone of you be interesting in doing something similar? There&#x27;s tons of obstacles here (not the least of which is protecting the recipients from abusive relationships) but, putting that aside, is this something you could see yourself doing?<p>Thanks so much!
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arialeks
Last week I got scammed by some guy that came to my door asking for money so
he can have a hand surgery, he showed me his hand which was severly disformed
and I got sentimental and gave him some spara change (a few bucks), which
considering I'm a student still hurts my tight budget a bit. Anyhow I felt
good giving him the money, because I thought it might help him if even just a
bit. Turns out he got arrested for being a scammer the next day, I recognized
his face in the local news article. The takeaway lesson from that was that if
I were ever in a position to help people out, I'd do so only through legal
chanells and organizations that have proved themselves to actually give
something meanigful for the people in need.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
I have mixed feelings. A tragic injury used to solicit sympathy has been a
staple of beggars for 1000 years (its in 1000 and 1 nights?) And what makes a
beggar 'a scammer'? The injury is fake? Well, the need might have been
genuine.

I don't know; helping is helping, whatever the path it took.

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hackermailman
I did something like this for 2 years using MTN as well to pay a farmer family
in rural Uganda every month but I had met them first through a friend,
wouldn't trust Olx and other sites though a few times I sent money randomly
that way. It was literally spare bitcoin change I had in various wallets that
inflated to a ridiculous price and I exchanged them directly to mobile money,
then transferred it for 24mos.

As other posts point out, it is a risk to flood a foreign market with capital
though, you could help one family but screw over people you don't know about
who's income ceases because you interfered and your patronage displaced their
daily hustle somehow. When I discovered another large bounty of old coins I
was hesitant to try this again since I know jack about the local economy.
Paying for education seems a better plan, through somebody you know to take a
pro makeup/hair course or some other trade. Pro training they can then start
their own small business and train an assistant, there's no work in any of
these countries like Uganda.

Edit, there's a Gambian newspaper where people can go to their office and
request help that's published. Better than random CL/Olx giving
[http://foroyaa.gm/category/those-who-need-
help/](http://foroyaa.gm/category/those-who-need-help/)

~~~
pw
This isn’t addressing your point and I’m not saying your doing this, but, as
I’ve told people here and elsewhere about my idea, it’s interesting how
readily they come up with criticisms. I guess this is the classic reaction to
cash transfers, but it’s still interesting to see it in action. I wonder how
much of it is just people finding excuses not to be generous.

I’m a pretty generous person in general, but it’s amazing how much my heart
has opened upon having a personal connection to people in such need. Right now
I’m not only giving as much as I can, but I’m looking for ways to earn more so
I can give more. That personal connection and everything that flows from it
is, I think, the unique benefit of this approach.

As for finding people via Olx, I should be clear (as I think I stated in
another comment), I’m not putting up a post saying that I’m looking to give
money away to those in need. That would just make me a target. Instead, I go
through various sections of the site and contact posters that seem like they
might be on the lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum. Given this approach
and given the scale I’m doing this on, there’s basically zero chance that I’m
sending money to someone that set out to scam me. I’d actually be _more_ leery
of a system like you mentioned with The Gambian newspaper, because it has the
potential to attract scammers.

There’s some chance that folks may be exaggerating their need to receive more
money than I’d otherwise give them, but I talk to my recipients extensively
and form very real, meaningful and lasting relationships with them and, in the
process, collect a lot of what you could call “collateral evidence” (like
photos), so I end with what I really think is a very accurate picture of their
lives. Moreover, if this type of exaggeration is happening it’s netting people
something on the order of tens of dollars. Both through correlating what
different recipients have told me and through independent research, I’ve got a
good sense of what the cost of living is there and what is and isn’t a
reasonable amount of money. So if someone says they need $310 a month (the
most I send anyone) to support their family when they really need $300, it
really matter doesn’t matter, and I don’t care.

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niko001
That's really interesting! I have a couple of questions, if you don't mind.

1) How do you make sure you're not getting scammed? I mean you probably can't
really get scammed in the literal sense, because you'd still be helping out a
poor person somewhere (just maybe a 20-something year old guy in Nigeria
rather than a single mom in Kenya).

2) Was it difficult to sign up for M-Pesa (and top it up with credit) given
that you're not in Africa?

3) Why did you decide to give directly, rather than support, say, a charity
that builds schools for girls in Kenya? A friend of mine is paying the college
tuition for a student in Nigeria (wired directly to the University), which I
think is great, as the recipient is less likely to see it as a 'handout', but
rather as an investment into their future.

~~~
pw
Hi and thanks for the questions.

1\. To be clear, I'm not advertising on Olx saying I'm giving away money, so I
don't have adverse selection to deal with. Rather I use to the "Seeking Work"
section to proactively reach out to individuals that seem like they might be
in need. And when I do reach out, I don't just open with "Do you need help?
Can I give you some money?" Rather I try to build rapport and develop a real
relationship. Most of the people I contact are just excited about talking to
an American even before money enters the picture.

So I think the remaining risk isn't that the person isn't who they say they
are but that they'd exaggerate their circumstances to get more money from me.
The way I counter that is by developing a real relationship with the
recipients. I talk to most of them on a daily basis. See pictures of their
house and children. Get their whole backstory. And, in general, just end up
with enough collateral documentation about their lives that it'd be hard to
fake.

And, in fact, it's these relationships that are the most rewarding part of the
whole thing. You're not just helping an abstract stranger. You're helping a
very real person that's become a part of your life. My first recipients, the
single mom, has become something of a sister.

2\. I don't use M-PESA directly. Rather I use WorldRemit
([https://www.worldremit.com](https://www.worldremit.com)), which connects to
M-PESA, to send the money. Other than the occasionally delay, it's a pretty
seamless experience. When you factor in the poor exchange rate you get, the
cost of sending money is about 1%.

3\. Honestly, it's just more rewarding to give directly. I know keep saying
this but to talk to the recipients and see how grateful they are and how life
changing the money is just an amazing experience. And it's motivating. I want
to keep giving and find ways to give more.

As for the handout question. None of my recipients seem to attach any stigma
to receiving the money and none of them treat it as a handout. They all keep
working in one way or another and most use the funds to start a business of
some sort.

~~~
niko001
Sounds great, thanks for your response. I love your approach and will try this
out myself.

~~~
pw
Thanks! Hit me up if you have any questions. My email is in my profile.

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iends
You should read the book “When Helping Hurts” to get a better idea of the harm
you can cause by just giving poor people money without addressing root causes
and more systematic issues.

In fact, I will buy you a copy if you are interested.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
You give a man a fish, he eats for a day. _He eats for a day_ Don't imagine
that doesn't matter. Its easy to give up because its not permanent. Nothing is
permanent, but helping is helping, no matter what the cynics say.

~~~
iends
What happens when the people you are helping become dependent on you and you
disappear?

The discussion isn’t helping or not helping, but determine how to best help
and allocate your resources accordingly.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
As long as it doesn't turn into stasis, where nobody is helped at all because
we're not sure its the perfect solution. Which cynical me thinks is selfish
and shortsighted.

And, what happens when they eat for a day and then you disappear is, they ate
for a day.

------
cuchoi
What's the problem with GiveDirectly.org? How likely is that the poorest have
internet access?

~~~
pw
There's absolutely no problem with GiveDirectly, and, if you want the most
impact for your dollar, absolutely give to them. My approach has the benefit
of being much more tangible. I'm helping people I've gotten to know and become
friends with. I keep saying this, but it's truly an amazing and perspective
altering experience. You don't realize just how much we all have in the West
compared to even middle-class person in Kenya.

And while cellphone penetration in Africa is pretty astounding, the poorest
might not have reliable electricity let alone a smartphone. I'm under no
illusions that I've reaching the poorest Kenyans. But the people I'm reaching
are definitely in need, and I feel good helping them.

I'm not saying this is an alternative to GiveDirectly, but I think it's an
interesting approach that has some unique benefits.

~~~
notemaker
While a donation through GD comes with no strings attached for the receiver,
would you say that your method does? Is there a chance that they feel an
obligation towards you that affects them negatively?

Great initiative though, I admire your spirit. If you're not already
introduced, givewell.org and 80000 hours would be interesting for you to look
up, I think.

~~~
pw
Yes, I’m very familiar with GiveWell.org and 80,000 Hours. They’re great orgs.

I attach absolutely no strings to any of my donations, but I think you bring
up a great point. There’s a huge inherent power differential, so you really
have to make sure the the relationship doesn’t become subtly coercive in some
way. I spend a great deal of talking to my receipients and get a lot from it.
I think they do too, but I’m sure they also realize I enjoy it and may feel
some obligation to indulge me. I try my best to make sure they don’t feel like
there’s any quid pro quo, but there’s a chance that they feel like there is,
and that obligation, in theory, could affect them negatively.

Perhaps I’m gravely misjudging, but the relationships I’ve formed seem very
genuine and, in some cases, almost familial. The mere fact of someone half a
world away reaching out and opening their wallet for a total stranger really
warms people’s hearts and leads to a kind of bonding that seems to be about
more than mere self interest. It’s quite amazing, really.

And, because of that, I’m donating $1k a month to people who, at the very
least, need it more than me. Would the best choice and the morally right
choice been to just have donated $1k a month to GiveDirectly? Absolutely, but
I don’t think I’d ever have done that.

