
An Investor Wanted to Give Me $50,000. Here’s Why I Said No - emmatessler
http://gutsybroads.com/2015/02/investor-wanted-give-50000-heres-said-no/
======
chrisbennet
It might be hard for guys to believe that men would do something like this
(except in the movies) but consider this:

Do you believe the stories of how many people fail the "fizzbuzz" test in
interviews? Yes, as wild as the idea is, the phenomena is very real.

Not being an interviewer and not having any incompetent programmer friends it
blew my mind that someone could be a developer for years and still not know
how to code.

I've don't remember seeing sexism any place I've worked but being married to a
female software developer opens your eyes - it's very real.

Just because as guys, we haven't experienced it, doesn't mean it doesn't
happen.

~~~
d0m
I reread your post a few time but I'm a bit puzzled. Can you explain the
connection between the fizzbuzz test, being a real developer, sexism and the
article?

~~~
ssharp
He's saying that just because you don't have first-hand experience with
something, or can't fathom how something is possible, doesn't mean it can't
happen.

~~~
chrisbennet
Thank you ssharp, that's exactly what I was trying to convey.

~~~
drig
Huh. I read your comment more as "you can be perceived as an expert in your
trade and still suck at it." Groping a potential client's boobs is a clear
sign of sucking at being a VC.

------
cperciva
_the next day, I sat down and wrote the investor an email. I told him that
while we appreciated the offer, we were being very strategic about which
investors to partner with. It felt pretty gutsy at the time..._

This doesn't seem gutsy to me; it seems downright timid. Now, I'm writing this
from the position of not needing or wanting investment in my startup; but if
you've decided to turn down an investor because he's a creep (which makes
perfect sense to me), why not call him out on his behaviour?

Sending a polite reply about being strategic in how you select investors sends
the message that you've selected against this guy because he's not a useful
angel investor; the message he needs to receive is that you're selecting
against him because he's _a crappy human being_.

~~~
tptacek
It is not her job to fix him. Her job is making payroll.

~~~
cperciva
I think it's _everybody 's_ job to take reasonable steps to prevent anyone
else from experiencing the type of assault she describes.

~~~
tptacek
In that spirit, let me take it upon myself to remind you not to heap
additional responsibilities on victims of harassment. She wrote it up, which
is already more than she owed the world.

~~~
cperciva
I'm not trying to heap _additional_ responsibilities on victims of harassment.
I'm just saying that I think there are certain responsibilities everybody has,
whether they're victims or not. If one of her co-founders had been writing
that email, I would have exactly the same comment.

~~~
tptacek
None of her responsibilities involve sending "the message he needs to
receive". _His needs_ are not material to the conversation. It is not her job
to fix him.

~~~
cperciva
I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. I have a more expansive view of
"duty to society" than you.

------
logfromblammo
In a professional relationship, even the one-armed hug is crossing the line.

We have ritual patterns for opening business relationships. You can perform a
symmetrical handclasp, pump twice, and release. You can do equal-depth bows,
with hands at your sides, and then do a business card exchange ceremony. You
can do the namaste gesture. You can, with the right sort of business, even
pull off a fist bump.

But even adding another hand to the handshake is overly familiar, in my
opinion.

If you're looking for a different sort of hook-up at an investment meet-up,
you perhaps need to be pulled aside and informed that the dating events are
held on a different night of the week. Just turning down the money is not
sufficient.

It should be clear, "We decided to refuse your generous offer of investment
because our company has a clear policy against sexual harassment, and it
wasn't clear whether you wished to buy a portion of the business or a portion
of a founder."

$50000 is not enough to hire an engineer when it comes from someone lacking
basic business ethics. Professional employees do care where the money comes
from, and if they figure out that the bankroll originates from assholes, the
salary expectations will go up, your equity offers will be valued at zero, and
their resume will never be removed from circulation. (Not that it would for a
startup, anyway, but there's a difference between just keeping your eyes open
and pre-planning the exit strategy.)

~~~
bhayden
>it wasn't clear whether you wished to buy a portion of the business or a
portion of a founder.

This is pretty unprofessional and unnecessarily aggressive. The email could
simply say "We appreciated your offer, but you made one of our founders
uncomfortable with your physical touching and we don't believe we'd have a
productive professional relationship that started off in this manner. We
understand if the touching was unintentional, but we must decline regardless."

It makes the same point, doesn't accuse him of doing anything intentionally,
and is hopefully actually conducive to making him not do it in the future.

~~~
logfromblammo
How much unprofessional and unnecessarily aggressive behavior would be
necessary to warrant a response in kind?

An overly diplomatic response would only allow him to rationalize his own
behavior.

------
minimaxir
It's worth noting that Dating Ring is YC W14, which is significant in light of
Y Combinator's public stance on sexual harassment.
([http://blog.ycombinator.com/a-reminder-to-
investors](http://blog.ycombinator.com/a-reminder-to-investors))

------
pskittle
This reminds me of my first ever job interview. I was enrolled in
tech+management program at a decent university and as a part of the curriculum
you're required to do an internship over summer. Our career counselor advised
us to get informational interviews with people working in organizations we
liked. Excited to learn about a particular organization and how they function
, My class mate and I decided to schedule some time with a person in the
senior management . After a few email exchanges We set a time for 3pm in the
afternoon on a weekday. On said day my friend and I were waiting outside his
lobby by 5 minutes to three to create a sincere impression. He wasn't in his
office. As we waited for him to come , we chatted about how it would go and
asked each other about a list of questions we had for him . I was slighty
nervous as it was my first ever interview. He walked the corridor towards his
office and As soon as the three of us made eye contact I introduced myself and
my friend. The first thing immediately after that he said to me was "you
reminded me of my ex wife Alicia, the mistake I almost made and how his
current wife wouldn't like him telling me this". My mind was like what the
hell is going on? Is this normal small talk. I was studying abroad so wasn't
sure about the culture and it being my first interview in life didn't help
either. I just let his comment slide and brought back the focus to his
organization. He did end up offering us internships but i decided to work with
someone else. He is since promoted to a more senior position in that
organization. I just don't get why grown adult men behave in such ways.

------
IgorPartola
My wife is constantly getting comments at the hospital where she works about
her looks. Mostly, these are from men, and mostly they are in the form of
"Well, aren't you a pretty young thing." Now, most of them (though by no means
all) are, it seems, trying to be nice. She works in cardiology, so she sees an
older population so this behavior is not exactly surprising.

Now, yes it may be a compliment, but it is an unwelcome one because it does
two things. First, it puts her on the spot. How do you respond to that in an
appropriate and professional manner? What if they are straight up
inappropriate? [1]. What if they are addressing another person in the room and
not you directly? ("Wow doc, you have such pretty ladies taking care of me
here!"). This is an extremely uncomfortable position to be in, and one that
most men never experience.

Second, this diminishes her professional qualities. With more or less clarity,
lots of these men say things like "you are so pretty, do you even know any
medicine?". Some basically, say that straight up.

And the biggest problem with all this? These are incidental occurrences. If
your boss pinches your bottom every day, you go to HR, complain and your boss
gets to take sexual harassment training or gets fired. When patients make you
uncomfortable, it's always a question of whether it's worth it to try to
correct their behavior at the risk of being unprofessional. Remember, the
patient can easily complain that you were rude to them. Make a habit of it,
and like it or not but your job will be affected. This is especially bad since
most of the people that make these comments don't even realize that they are
making her uncomfortable, so to call them out on it would be even more of a
shock.

[1] One particularly bad incident was when she asked a patient about his
sexual function and he responded with "Well if you were my girlfriend, I
wouldn't have any issues, trust me."

------
belorn
Meta question, but why is pitch events located in bars? It is a place
associated with dating, mixed with free booze, and apparently used as a place
for professionalism and critical business decisions?

~~~
tptacek
Professionals can go to an event in a bar (and, yes, even consume a drink in a
bar) without sexually harassing people. The problem here isn't the
environment. The problem is the culture.

~~~
belorn
There will always be people who commit crimes. However, people under the
influence tend to do act slightly less professional than others, and as such,
professional work place tend to have a ban against it. Drinking on the job is
the firing offense in most place, and for a good reason.

A few conferences ago, I walk passed a drunk woman who turned around and hit
me out of the blue. I could attribute that to conference culture, or I could
attribute this to a woman who was so drunk she could barely stand and was
talking to herself. If this had been at the work place, I would react very
different, as in this case I just continued walking.

Bars and free alcohol is not something I associate with a place of
professionalism. I am not sure why so many people try to combine the two,
which is why I ask.

~~~
maemilius
There's a marked difference between "drinking" and "being drunk". It's
perfectly acceptable where I work to "have a beer", but I would fully expect
to be, at least, reprimanded for anything more than that.

EDIT: It's a context thing. If I was in the middle of a difficult problem and
wanted a little "mental lubricant", I don't think anyone would question it.
Drinking for no reason, or when being even slightly tipsy could affect
performance, makes for perfect grounds for punishment.

I understand the professionalism argument, but we're all adults here. If
having a drink completely obliterates your sensitivities, you didn't have very
many in the first place.

------
jxm262
Honest question, but as a male, what can we do to stop this? I've seen much
more subtle things in previous jobs that drive me nuts (men overtalking women
in meetings, assigning lower tasks, etc..). It's usually not very overt and
when I pick up on it, I usually try to help, but never know how far to go.

I'm sorry if I'm derailing the main topic, but after dating a female developer
for a while now, I see things in a much different light. This stuff makes me
sick; We always talk about how this is a collective industry problem.. but I'm
left wondering what I can do about it personally when I see it.

~~~
logfromblammo
As a male, nothing. I can no more end sexual discrimination at work than I can
lower the deductible on the health insurance plan, or increase the match on
the 401k. You need leverage to make change happen, and simply being male does
not provide any.

The culture will not change without some form of advocacy group, such as a
professional association or labor union. What you can do alone, as an
individual, is to seek alternative employment in a better working environment.
Or you could scuttle your career by filing a lawsuit for hostile working
environment against your employer.

Edit: I can't quite tell if this post is being down-voted for being pro-union
or anti-whiteknight, so to be clear, I intended it to be pro-union. Noble
intentions are always praiseworthy, even if they are ultimately useless due to
a lack of coordination with like-minded individuals.

~~~
pc86
I'm not quite sure how a professional association (which typically has little
or no bargaining power with employers) or a labor union (which as a primary or
secondary effect, makes it _harder_ to fire people, even shit people) would
have helped here.

~~~
logfromblammo
Can you explain how uncoordinated individuals could have helped, given that
they have even less bargaining power, and many of them are "at-will" employees
and can be fired for any reason, including having an opinion or being married
to someone with an opinion?

The tactic does not have to be objectively good. It just has to be
subjectively better than the status quo. If you can think of something that
would be both, please share it.

~~~
pc86
I never said it would have helped, I'm simply saying I don't see how either of
your two suggested solutions (a professional association or a union) could
have.

I honestly don't see how at-will employment status has anything to do with a
VC sexually assaulting a startup founder.

~~~
logfromblammo
Ancestor post explicitly apologized for being slightly off topic in asking how
an individual could effect change within the workplace.

Both professional associations and labor unions have historically been
successful at influencing workplace conditions within their industries. While
that does not guarantee a change for the better with respect to this
particular issue, it does imply that such a change is possible. It seems odd
to me that an apparent majority of employees agree that sexual
harassment/discrimination is unacceptable behavior, and the industry still has
a problem with it occurring. I suggest that is because those who oppose it
lack the power to enforce their will upon their employers.

The other historically effective solution is lobbying for government
legislation, but the bad behavior is already illegal when certain lines are
crossed, and uniform enforcement is by no means guaranteed.

When a person with no money and no power elects to fight someone with both, he
will lose, unless he can convince a lot of friends to stand with him.
Employers and investors alike have the money advantage. How else would you
counter that advantage, if not with superior numbers?

------
Patrick_Devine
I'm not really sure why hugs would be given at an investor/pitching session,
so maybe this is kinda moot, but I've certainly given a couple of half-hearted
one armed hugs which turned into sideboob grazing and I definitely wasn't
trying to feel the other person up. It's kind of like when you go to shake
another person's hand and they grab your fingers instead of your palm and then
it becomes a totally awkward handshake because you didn't get your hand in
there far enough.

Anyway, I have no idea if this was the case, but you probably don't want to
pillory someone unless you're absolutely sure the guy is a complete d-nozzle.

------
sillysilicon
These type of guys need to be named and shamed so they don't think they can
simply get away with this behavior

~~~
cgtyoder
I would definitely have given this an enthusiastic Yes a few weeks ago, but
after reading the details of the Justine Sacco incident
([http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/15/magazine/how-one-stupid-
tw...](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/15/magazine/how-one-stupid-tweet-ruined-
justine-saccos-life.html)) I am more reticent to start off with public outing.
Of course what he did was unequivocally wrong; not saying anything else here.
It would certainly have been appropriate to let the event organizers know, if
not YC (if they weren't the same).

------
BerislavLopac
"while most one-armed hugs result in a hand resting politely on your ribcage"

I'm sorry? I would expect that any unsolicited hugs like thT could only result
in a polite end to the conversation, rather than making a difference between
ribcage and boob. In which world is it OK to hug someone you're supposed to
have a business relationship with?

~~~
sergiotapia
I've lived and worked in latinamerica for years now and I cannot imagine a
scenario where one would hug or side hug a potential business partner. An
existing business partner alright sure -- but one you're just meeting? I just
can't picture it.

I mention this because latinamerica is much more relaxed socially than the US.

~~~
modoc
US male here. I've been hugged by many women I've just met at multiple events
and conferences. I'm no male model, nor would I initiate a hug with someone
I'd just met (or generally in a business context unless I knew them extremely
well), however there seem to be a large number of women who are "huggers" and
hug instead of a handshake.

Just saying this isn't a male-on-female only thing. Women do this on a pretty
regular basis in my experience.

EDIT - In NO way defending groping, by any gender.

~~~
BerislavLopac
"Just saying this isn't a male-on-female only thing."

My point exactly -- I can't imagine myself allowing any potential business
partner, male or female, giving me unsolicited hugs unless we knew each other
for years. Note, this includes people I find attractive and might otherwise be
interested in.

------
hayksaakian
Pretty screwed up but the NO is totally deserved -- nobody wants an investor
like that.

(And there I was, prepared to discuss the benefits of VC vs bootstrapping)

------
randall
:(

Bugs me that this is a story in 2014/15\. You guys are awesome and shouldn't
have to deal with this nonsense.

~~~
philsnow
Nobody should have to deal with this nonsense.

------
fizzbuzz78
News flash: all it takes to be an investor is money and time spent hanging
around in the right crowds. You don't have to be particularly smart, savvy or
even a good person.

It shouldn't shock people that any random scumbag with a few hundred grand in
the bank can style themselves as an "angel" and get fawned over by the best
and brightest entrepreneurs in the country. This type of dynamic will attract
unpleasant types of people who pull these kinds of stunts. As an industry we
should be more realistic about fund raising, and perhaps slightly more cynical
about the types of people we're trying to pitch ideas to.

------
domiono
This is a very sensitive issue, but frankly men will always try to hit on
women. However, right now this is completely ignored. It looks like everyone
is trying to sweep this under the carpet and hopes this way, sexism in tech
will go away. It won't.

A major reason for that is, because right now, men are only told what is NOT
okay, without telling them what IS okay. This makes a lot of men behave very
strangely in towards women. Firstly, because they don't want to appear sexist
for the woman's sake and secondly, because they don't want to be accused of
sexual harassment. Women feel this and for that reason feel unwelcome in tech.
It seems like no one tries to reference any gender study researxh even though
this is such a huge problem in tech and is holding up our industry.

A way to solve this, would be starting to create an open culture about how men
and women can work together in tech, NOT leaving out the whole dating aspect.

A first step into this direction would be to clarify what IS okay and not only
what is NOT okay.

For instance, telling a woman she is gorgeous without asking for anything in
return is okay. Then the woman can make up her mind if she is interested or
not. This is how it works and it will happen anHowever, basing a business
transaction on sexual favours is not tolerated.

This has to be more specific of course, however, the only guideline being
"inappropriate behaviour won't be tolerated" is just not enough to solve
sexism in tech and to get more women into tech.

~~~
bhayden
>without telling them what IS okay

This issue I would have, if I weren't married and didn't have to worry about
this, is that if you talk to enough women about "what is ok" you come to learn
that nothing is. Talking to or interacting with a woman in any way, as a man,
is not acceptable unless that interaction is wanted by the woman. And there's
no way to know whether it is wanted since you can't read minds. Many women
claim that they should have the right to be left alone and not talked to, even
if someone is attempting to do it 100% out of friendliness because the woman
has no way of knowing he's only being friendly.

------
igorgue
This is not a way to change the industry or the world, and shows a lot of the
courage she has (which is nothing).

There should be zero tolerance for these kind of things if we actually care
about them, but see how she pretty much protects this person just because he
has money.

You guys (people in power) make me sick.

------
fahadkhan
Great to hear you turned him down.

$50,000 for big a share? TBH $50,000 doesn't sound like that much money. I
guess that doesn't even pay for one engineer year in NY?

~~~
g8gggu89
Aren't investors supposed to be investing millions? Or are those "angel
investors"?

------
graeme
For any man wondering what he can do about this: Keep your eyes and ears open.

I think a broken windows theory applies. Small comments can signify larger
issues. Addressing small, offhand comments can help create a culture that
doesn't tolerate this stuff.

I work alone, so I don't get many opportunities to have any impact on this
kind of thing. But if you're in a group culture, you may be in daily contact
with men who treat women poorly.

------
Udo
That was the right decision. Not only because of the grotesque incident
itself, but because it reflects very poorly on that guy's personality. One can
only imagine how badly future interactions might have turned out, or what he
would have done in retaliation if he encountered resistance.

------
rokhayakebe
_People do this because (unfortunately for some) it works._

I am going to advance something here, but before I do this and offend many,
let me first state clearly that this type of behavior is absolutely impolite.

Now the problem is not the investor, it is society in general. No man is going
around dropping their pants hoping to be liked simply because it has never
worked. That is to say if a man or woman touches another in a certain way, it
is very likely that it is something that has worked in the past, and that
continues to work for many.

I am just stating a fact here, and again apologies for offending anyone: you
can go out nowadays meet people and sleep with them within hours of your very
first interaction. I am not talking about a bar, I am talking about anywhere.

It goes further, many people who are in committed relationships (and I am not
judging anyone) are openly flirtatious with co-workers.

The list goes on and on. So people see this, and follow accordingly.

When people see these things and do not stop to think is this right or wrong,
they just follow suit.

In short men and women act this way because many other men and women allow it,
and it works, and unfortunately those who do not like it end up being the
offended.

Specifically to women: the mistake many make (at work) is to think they can
act a certain with one person, and not expect other men to follow with their
attempts.

My little advice is to behave in a way that tells everybody that this kind of
behavior is not acceptable from the get go. Have your SAME limits set for
everyone.

It is very sad that you have to do this, and unacceptable, but until both men
and women understand what lines should not be crossed, you have to look out
for yourself.

------
aoeusth
Kudos to Emma for being brave enough to speak out. I'm a guy, and never used
to understand why I hear so many stories of victims keeping silent and doing
nothing to prevent this kind of abuse from happening to others.

But something similar happened to me, and I was shamed and pressured to keep
quiet. And this happened to me when I worked at Google, which probably has a
better culture and environment than most other places.

I wasn't sexually harassed, but I was mistreated by my boss in many other
ways. On several occasions, he asked me to fabricate data when he was under a
deadline or wanted to impress someone, he pressured me to write glowing
reviews for him and negative reviews for people he didn't like, and he told me
I was acting "like a pussy" when I said no. He also threatened me with
negative performance reviews if I didn't comply, and banned me from meetings
where I presented my work.

What hurt even more was what happened when I tried to get help.

I talked to my coworkers. A few of them had similar things happen to them, but
were afraid of looking like tattletales and what would happen if our boss
found out. A few said this hadn't happened to them, but although they believed
it given other experiences with him, he was our boss so I should suck it up.
Another person said he had already spoken to my boss's boss about it, and that
boss had told my boss what he had said.

I tried talking to my VP. I asked for a meeting in an email, and explained the
situation. My VP said he was busy for the next month, but we could meet
later... When we eventually met one month later, he said I should talk to my
boss's boss about this instead of him, and immediately asked if I had anything
else to discuss.

I talked to HR. The HR representative said she would look into it by talking
to some of my coworkers discreetly. When I talked to her again a month later,
she said she'd had the chance to work with my boss on some projects, he'd
happened to mention his "intuitive sense as a leader" about issues in my life
and that I hadn't been performing well recently, and she asked if I was sure I
wasn't retaliating for other reasons? She told me that if I was unhappy, I
should leave the company. (I asked my coworkers, she hadn't talked to any of
them.)

Other people I talked to were skeptical that this could happen, despite
concrete evidence I had of my boss's abuse. (I heard responses like "maybe
there's a reason for it we don't see.") I can understand caution around my
claims (we should all be "innocent until proven guilty"), but that I was so
blatantly ignored and met with distrust made for a dark time.

I see a few people in this thread accusing Emma of not doing even more. Given
what's happened to me and how it's only hurt my career (I get questions when
interviewing for new positions about why I left Google, and while I could tell
the truth, I'm pretty sure it would only make me look like a paranoid
troublemaker), and how I've seen others remain silent, it's far more than I
and most people ever will.

------
peteridah
kudos to you for sharing this and standing your ground. This behaviour is
simply unacceptable on all counts and we should collectively check this here.
I wonder if the OP is open to naming this investor.

------
oldmanjay
if you are physically assaulted but do not involve the police immediately, I
have very little sympathy. clearly you want some level of emotional vengeance,
not justice, and I have no interest in listening to you complain. direct your
energies properly.

~~~
PhoenixWright
You're obviously unfamiliar with gutsybroads.com

------
known
I think you overlooked the benefits beyond $50,000

~~~
usefulcat
Like unsolicited groping?

------
PhoenixWright
That site has as much credibility as Brian Williams. I'll take a drubbing for
this but her story has zero proof and is completely one-sided.

------
csomar
_Yeah, but it’s not a big deal. I mean, it was only the side. $50,000!! That’s
a lot of money!_

When did $50K become a "lot" of money? I live in a country which has a 1/10 of
the US gdp per capita, and $50K is certainly a nice amount but not really a
"lot" of money. Is a 0 or 00 missing here?

------
larrys
So the question then is why not name names? Or better yet why not confront the
person (in writing) to see what there reaction is to what they did?

------
EdSharkey
Her coinvestors/partners were portrayed as completely apathetic to her being
groped. Some of you wanted the groper named and shamed, which she didn't, but
then she turns around and publicly casts a bad light on her _partners_ (who i
suppose are known)? I think that's crummy.

~~~
tptacek
That's a pretty gymnastic attempt at victim-blaming. 9.4 from the East German
judges.

------
mgkimsal
For someone identifying as a 'gutsy broad', I'm not sure why there wasn't a
mention in the email about the specifics as to why the money was being turned
down. I know there's loads of potential reasons, but the ones I can think of
tend to center on timidity/boatrocking, not being gutsy.

------
semperfaux
The reaction was very reasonable (generous, in fact): A bit of denial followed
by a very discreet "no thanks."

The unfortunate thing is that the conclusion was "we probably just shouldn't
take the money." For someone who clearly considers herself proactive and
professional on matters of sexuality, this a rather profound failure in terms
of sexual equality.

Don't get me wrong: This is exactly what I'd do. But it's _not_ what I'd
expect from someone selling a brand called "gutsy broads" and boasting
credentials including "sexuality specialist."

Standing up to sexism isn't easy. But this isn't even an attempt, from someone
who should at very least be making an attempt, not selling anecdotes that do
little more than pat the author on the back for... what, exactly? This is very
tepid commentary on what would otherwise be a fairly significant incident to
someone in such a position.

~~~
DanBC
You call her out for not "making a stand"[1] but don't say much about the
actual problem: some sleazy guy sexually assaulting her.

That kind of attitude is sub-optimal.

[1] A move that could be considerably negative for her.

~~~
graeme
Agreed. And as an another commentor noted above, hopefully she was able to
privately name this investor to YC. They're well positioned to take effective
action in a way that doesn't put the author at risk.

We've unfortunately seen far too many cases where "being a woman on the
internet" has led to harassment. Posting about this publicly and putting her
name on it is already plenty gutsy.

