
U.S. alcohol-related deaths have doubled, study says - pseudolus
https://www.npr.org/2020/01/08/794772148/alcohol-related-deaths-have-doubled-study-says
======
dranktoomuch
Hey gang.

I've been an HN member for a long time, fairly prominent Bay Area tech
executive, rich in the sense of both bank accounts and family.

Alcohol brought me to my knees in my late 20s / early 30s.

It started out as the typical "social lubricant" to help a natural introvert
be better at connecting with people and was wonderful at that - I was the life
of the party.

Over a decade it leaked into a "requirement" for just about anything and
eventually drinking heavily 3 / 4 nights a week.

Eventually I sought paid help from therapists, coaches, natural remedies,
medication, recovery specialists. Nothing worked. Eventually a therapist told
me "you're screwed the only thing left to try is AA".

I was highly skeptical, an agnostic, still am more or less, but AA saved my
life on account of the comradery i found in the rooms of SV meetings. People
with the same story and same struggles who worked the steps and recovered.

One of the AA rules is attraction not promotion, this isn't promotion only my
own simple testimonial. Statistics say that it doesn't work for a lot of
people but knowing the general skeptical nature of HN and the crowd I want
anybody struggling or who was in my situation to know that for this one
skeptical / tech / entrepreneurial brain it was a lifesaver after trying
basically everything else.

Now sober ~9 years and counting and wouldn't have it any other way.

I am happy to answer questions about the program if anybody is struggling, can
give an anon email too if preferred.

edit: temp gmail account ohohuhunkjnuihuh@gmail.com

~~~
WhompingWindows
How religious is AA?

~~~
AAanon
If I had to give you a number, 20% (with a church being 100%)?

But it really depends on the group. There non-religious modifications to the
AA program. They don't say a prayer every 3 minutes. It definitely worth going
to a meeting or two just to listen to their stories.

~~~
bigwavedave
My brother goes to one in Utah where they're actually very careful to stay
away from any religious aspects. They understand that not everyone in Utah is
LDS and they're very careful to make it so everyone feels included and isn't
turned off by any religious undertones. I went with him to support him for his
very first meeting and it was surprising how strict this rule was.

------
wjossey
My father died in July of 2015 from alcohol, at the very young age of 60. He
drank daily, and then slowly stopped moving due to other health issues related
to back pain. After refusing rehab and other options, he eventually died at
his home one evening.

His drinking buddy was my step-mother, who followed an identical trajectory.
Less than four years later, she died in the same spot of the house, in her
late 50s.

The most difficult thing for my sister and myself was how powerless we were to
do anything about it. Despite him committing slow suicide by alcohol, we were
advised by lawyers that we had no legal recourse and would just end up burning
money in a court battle we could not win.

My last ditch effort was an ultimatum, that if he didn't stop drinking, I
would no longer talk to him, nor allow him to meet any kids my wife and I
might have down the line. He agreed to stop drinking, but then gave up 72
hours later.

His grandson was born 7 weeks ago, but he never got to meet him. He would have
only been 65.

~~~
pstuart
I'm so sorry. I've been there too and that powerlessness is devastating.

It seems like the pendulum swung too far in the opposite direction from how we
treated mental illness in the previous century (aggressively locking people up
in institutions).

It would be a huge benefit to society if we could find a (relatively safe from
abuse) mechanism to treat people who are "functional" yet too mentally ill to
stop their self-destructive behaviors. I'm not sure how that would/could work,
but it's a worthwhile goal.

~~~
0x8BADF00D
> It would be a huge benefit to society if we could find a (relatively safe
> from abuse) mechanism to treat people who are "functional" yet too mentally
> ill to stop their self-destructive behaviors. I'm not sure how that
> would/could work, but it's a worthwhile goal.

There is a way. When I was lost, dealing with my own problematic issues with
drinking, I found another path. Taking a single dose of LSD-25 made me examine
the root cause of my drinking, and made me understand just how self-
destructive I had been. I've never been religious, but for those 8 hours I
felt more connected to everything around me than I had in my entire life. I
felt love for the first time. I touched the surface of God, of goodness, of
kindness with my soul. And it healed me. Like a bright light, healing me of
all of my old emotional wounds. It opened my eyes, so I could see for the
first time.

~~~
tigershark
Great, let’s give LSD to everyone instead of alcohol. /s

~~~
pstuart
Absolutely not, and definitely not on a regular basis. Pro-tip: frequent usage
has diminishing returns according to SWIM :-)

But has a therapeutic tool, I'd advocate for most people to have a (safe)
psychedelic experience at least once in their life. It can profoundly change
the way you see the world and yourself, and that has ramifications in how we
cope with pain. Using alcohol for that is not a good thing.

------
yason
This is completely off-topic but... The article in question gave an accidental
glimpse of a better world or, well, better web.

The cookie and data protection dialog asks the usual question. The choices are
to agree and continue, or "Decline and Visit Plain Text Site"! What? Someone
still does plaintext sites? And to get the plaintext version you also get the
privilege of _not_ having to accept any of this:

 _"...use cookies, similar tracking and storage technologies, and information
about the device you use to access our sites to enhance your viewing,
listening and user experience, personalize content, personalize messages from
NPR’s sponsors, provide social media features, and analyze NPR’s traffic. This
information is shared with social media services, sponsorship, analytics and
other third-party service providers."_

This must be a hidden statement of some sort from the web administrators.

Basically they propose whether I want to get screwed _in so many ways_ or,
declining that, _only get the content I actually_ want. Nobody genuinely
interested in tracking me down and selling my data to the moon and back would
do this.

This contrast presented is borderline between hilarious and very depressing,
very much underlining what most sites actually offer you but I certainly wish
all websites were exactly like this. Decline all shit and get the plaintext
version - how much better could things get?!

~~~
sneak
Plot twist: most users prefer pictures and video, and don't care about their
privacy until years later when their historic data is used against them.

------
bradlys
My father is an alcoholic. (in his case, he went to rehab and doesn't drink
much anymore but he is still an alcoholic)

I used to think that I was going to drink at one point. I remember thinking,
"if I was of age I'd like to buy that lady a drink." But by the time I turned
of age and could, I decided I wouldn't touch it. I'd never really been offered
alcohol growing up - so maybe that helped settle in the habit. But, I got
offered it constantly once I was of age. I declined every time and never
sought it out. I don't drink at all and even more so, I don't pay or
contribute to alcohol bills directly. If my significant other wants a drink, I
tell her to put it on a separate bill.

I used to think that maybe I'd drink but then I'd go to parties and smell
beer. And I knew I wouldn't. I'd feel so much anger and resentment as soon as
I smelled it. It pulled me back into hell. On top of this, I felt like I was
the prime candidate for substance abuse. I have amazing executive control (I
have suffered incredible emotional and physical pain over the last decade but
I have never shed a tear in that time. Hell, I watched a lot of Disney movies
and I still didn't. I do it just to prove that I still have control). You lose
some of that control when you drink alcohol (from what I've been told).

So, I just don't. I don't care to know if I'm a jovial or mean drunk. I don't
need to know if I'll have a substance abuse problem. Personally, I'd be quite
happy if it didn't exist. I wouldn't have to deal with the problems it causes
so frequently. I abstain from most other substances as well for similar
reasons. (Caffeine really being the only thing that I normally ingest)

~~~
dhconnelly
My father is also an alcoholic, went to AA for a while, has had two divorces
since because of drinking. My sister is an alcoholic, my mother is a
prescription drug addict. The way this manifests in me is that I'm obsessed
with Not Being An Alcoholic. So I drink. Because it's Not A Problem! Sometimes
I drink too much, sometimes it lasts for months. And then I Prove To Myself
that I'm not an alcoholic, and I stop for a bit. And start again, but like a
Well-Adjusted Person! And sometimes not, and everything is coming apart, and
then I do it again, stop drinking for a bit, and I think to myself, "Well, at
least I'm not an alcoholic!"

Edit: Let me mention that the guardrails on this have narrowed since my
daughter was born.

~~~
dpark
You must realize you’re describing relapsing alcoholic behavior, right?

I would think this was sarcasm if not for the edit.

~~~
Red_Leaves_Flyy
I think it's important to note that he describes a functional alcoholic. He
seems to be managing his responsibilities and dependents without egregious
carelessness.

This is distinction is important to note so friends and families can identify
regressions earlier and thus better manage the resulting behaviors. I don't
support strict abstinence or the 12 stepsbut every addict needs a system
thatcatches them well before their live disintegrates. By recognizing when
someone is slipping from casual use into binges and benders we can all save
lives, money, time, and relationships.

~~~
dpark
> _I don 't support strict abstinence_

This is a strange statement. Is this poorly phrased or do you actually think
recurring alcoholics should continue endlessly drinking and relapsing rather
than abstaining?

I also don’t think addicts should expect friends and family to be their
guardrails. If you cannot drink in moderation without slipping into alcoholic
behaviors, then it’s on you to stop rather than expect others to attempt to
manage your addiction for you. It’s unhealthy, irresponsible, and
inconsiderate to attempt to put that burden on others. Not only is this likely
an ineffective strategy, but it drives others away.

~~~
Red_Leaves_Flyy
You misunderstand me.

I don't support forcing strict abstinence on people. For example, the fake
marijuana crisis that ravaged Florida and the rest of America years ago
wouldn't have occurred had marijuana been legal. Instead every impoverished
broken person on probation had a new fix available to them. This time it was
dangerous untested drugs made in sketchy Chinese labs.

If someone swears off (x) then that's their decision. If I tell you to never
eat meat, drink milk, or travel via any method that consumes fossil fuels
you'd rightly think I'm crazy. Just the same, telling addicts to stop drinking
or drugging when just about everyone they know does is crazy. Do I need to
explain why?

The expectation is not to have addicts rely on their family to keep them from
falling off the wagon. Instead, when you accept the fact that strict
abstinence is a pipe dream you have to start actually planning how you live
around an addict instead of blithely thinking they'll never relapse you can
help them get back on their feet. If that's too much to ask of you then you
aren't their friend and should warn them that you're not going to help them
when they're struggling. Because there's a solid chance that if someone is
relapsing a lot of other shit went wrong. And if you're a close friend or
family then you carry some responsibility for not helping them.

------
Akinato
My entire family, outside of myself, has struggled with alcohol. I watched it
turn them from brilliant, creative people into miserable wretches that avoided
living life like one would an allergy. For every single one of them, they
started out drinking heavily at parties. Then they would have a beer after
work to 'relax'. Then two. Then four. Then six. And then their livers,
marriages, and careers started to fall apart around them. They stopped leaving
their homes, and then their chairs, and then their beds -- until they were
dead. Their livers failed along with the rest of their health. Alcoholism
isn't a war or a battle, it's a slow, insidious invasion and dismantling of
your coping mechanisms until you have literally nothing else to turn to.

It always amazes me that casual and habitual drinking is an accepted thing.
People even seem to take pride in their alcohol tolerance, and congratulate
each other for drinking more of the substance than others would even attempt.

~~~
seibelj
Not everyone goes from casual drinking to full-on life destroying alcoholism.
Just as not everyone who gambles loses their house to the casino, or even does
a line of cocaine and starts turning tricks for their next fix.

We tried prohibition during an extremely prude moment in the USA. It failed so
miserably that we passed a constitutional amendment to revert a previous
amendment, which is pretty incredible.

The stories of people who let any vice ruin their lives are powerful and
important to know. But don’t let stories restrict the freedom of everyone. If
alcohol was so bad then we never would have legalized it after prohibition.
Everything is a trade off, and it’s better to let people make their own
decisions than to throw people in jail.

~~~
watwut
It was not so much extreme prude moment, but more of massive problems with
pervasive alcoholism moment. People drinking out their whole salaries leaving
dependents hungry and obviously a lot of violence - street and domestical.

Prohibition did not worked just like drug war don't work, but it did not
started on whim for no reason.

------
hn_drinking_ta
Former heavy drinker here. I used to get very drunk about once a week
(exclusively in social situations). I had to cut down on alcohol significantly
few years ago, due to a health problem that came about unrelated to drinking.
Now I get drunk maybe 2-3 times a year.

I was disappointed that I didn't get any of the benefits I frequently found
mentioned online. I didn't lose any weight, my skin didn't look better, my
thinking hasn't become any more clear, I didn't become more productive and my
relationships haven't improved. But those were all in pretty decent shape
while I was still drinking regularly.

All in all, life just became a little more boring. It wasn't even that hard to
reduce my drinking, after having come to terms with the life-becoming-more-
boring part. I just wish there was some substance which would fill the same
niche without the health risks. Weed isn't really it.

~~~
SauciestGNU
For some people weed might not be it, but for me it is. A combination of
coffee and a strong sativa edible for an evening outing satisfies my escapist
tendencies and is quite enjoyable for me.

~~~
sibeliuss
When I cut back on my drinking I tried the weed substitute (I live where where
its legal, and could experiment with strains) but never found anything that
was "fun". Interesting, yes, but not a substitute. I know plenty of folks who
vastly prefer it to alcohol, though, which I think is great.

~~~
SauciestGNU
One thing I've found with weed is that it's not really fun on its own, it just
changes how you perceive what you're already doing. So rather than sit at a
bar with friends I find myself choosing to see live music, or to play music,
build something, or do some other creative endeavor.

It's definitely not a one to one replacement for alcohol, as I don't find
myself doing exactly the same things as I would if I went out drinking, but
what I do when I get high generally feels more fulfilling.

------
gok
Paper:
[https://doi.org/10.1111/acer.14239](https://doi.org/10.1111/acer.14239)

A few notes:

\- It's comparing absolute, not per-capita, numbers. The US drinking age
population is up >20% since 1999, so that accounts for some of this rise.

\- The paper spends a lot of time discussing the fact that alcohol isn't
reported completely in death certificates.

\- Alcohol-related drug overdoes are broken out separately from alcohol
overdoses, and this is up 580% (!) from 1999

~~~
jcutrell
You're the right person to ask this I think - what is likely the attributable
cause of death responsible for this? Mostly the overdoses, or other disease-
related things?

~~~
gok
Not an expert at all; I just read the paper. The paper suggests it's about a
few things, like the opioid epidemic, increased binge drinking, and more
reporting from coroners.

------
cactus2093
I'm not at all trying to lessen all the stories of alcoholism in the thread. I
know everyone's experience is different, and addiction and alcoholism are
genuine diseases that become incredibly physiologically difficult to overcome.

But I find it a complicated topic. I've had so many great times drinking -
sitting around with friends, late into the night, making real connections,
debating things, laughing, and not being in a rush to check my phone or go
somewhere else.

Yes you can do this stuff without drinking, and we should probably make more
of an effort to as a society just to be more inclusive of those who don't
drink. But in my own experience and own social circles, these kinds of
interactions seems to happen less or at least in different ways without
drinking. When I've hung out with groups of friends that don't drink, maybe
they'll play a board game, or have a bbq, usually something that's a bit more
of an activity than just sitting there doing nothing. And then when the
activity's over people leave. There's something kind of unique about sitting
around drinking, it can bring such an intense emphasis on the act of just
being present and connecting with the people you're with.

Another aspect is always having somewhere to go. If you're out in a big city
with friends there's basically a limitless number of bars you can go to, with
fun and inspiring ambiances. I don't think there's really any equivalent
without drinking. You can go out to eat but it only lasts an hour or two. Go
to coffee shops, but they close at 9 or 10pm.

Obviously you can always do all of this stuff and be the person in the group
who's not drinking, and that's totally cool. But once nobody in the group is
drinking, the dynamic is a little different. And it's frowned upon to go to a
bar with a group and not buy any drinks.

Anyway, not sure what my point is. I still drink regularly, though now I try
to limit it to 2-3 drinks at a time and only 1 or 2 days a week. I don't think
I have a problem with alcohol, but of course the confusing part about it all
is that's exactly what someone who has a problem with alcohol would say. Maybe
I should stop drinking just to be safe. But in the right circumstances, having
a few drinks can really be a beautiful way to connect with your fellow human
beings, and one that I've gotten a lot of genuine enjoyment out of over the
years.

~~~
xnyan
Thank you for sharing your story, I wanted to add a somewhat related
perspective in the same train of thought.

My grandfather was a severe alcoholic, beat my father, the whole 9 yards. My
father was obsessed with not becoming an alcoholic and his children from not
drinking to the point of, I would say near insanity in the way he talked to us
and ranted against alcohol continuously.

Anytime anyone would drink alcohol around him, he would spew the most horrible
vitriolic language about them and make all kinds of personal judgements about
them while not knowing them at all. He also physically abused us to without
even the excuse of alcohol like his grandfather.

Today I never speak to him and happily drink in moderation sometimes. Maybe
that’s not right for everybody but perhaps just a little reminder that
everything can go too far including worry about drinking.

------
for_the_record
My father died from alcohol back in November. He could only go a few hours
before showing signs of withdrawal. During the last two days of his life. He
tried to sober up but was fainting and falling a lot because his heart was so
weak. My brother found him on the bathroom floor, the bathroom sink was still
running. We guessed he was getting sick over the sink and stood up too
quickly, blacked out, fell, hit the back of his head and died. The official
death certificate said cause of death: blunt force trauma to the head. It
listed the secondary cause as falling. And that was it. No mention of alcohol
whatsoever. This study wouldn't include him. I wonder how much worse the
problem really is.

------
nimbius
Full disclosure: both my parents are alcoholics.

Ive always been suspicious that alcohol in the United States is basically a
thinly veiled means to privatize social interaction. I spent 16 years drinking
regularly and certainly the dangers werent explained in LMFAO's song "shots"
when i was young, or by James Bond's seven martini car chases. The industry is
large enough to require more oversight in my opinion, but states dependent on
alcohol and tobacco taxes theres very little incentive to wash the grease off
that hand.

the WHO and NHS both strongly advise against consumption of any alcohol in
2020, but for my parents I guess it was more like cigarettes. No one
knows/there are health benefits/its harmless are all excuses im sure they
heard along with the reinforced masculinity tropes.

Alcohol turned my parents into miserable wretches. My mother now suffers from
Wernekes encephalitis. at age 62 now shes suffered more than a dozen seizures
and a fractured hip. When she was admitted to hospital she could not be given
painkillers, as she had consumed eleven cans of beer before arriving. she
spent 2 weeks in a nursing home and suffering from withdrawal symptoms was so
insufferably aggressive and abusive they threatened to discharge her after a
week. She cursed every member of the family with scathing vitriol and
merciless fervor. Not as though it would matter, as she refused any and all
physical therapy until she could go home and have beer again. she still drinks
around 3-4 cans a day, and hobbles about in a walker.

my fathers developed chronic gastritis and cant handle so much as a warm cup
of tea. He has had a section of intestine removed as chronic alcohol related
inflammation had destroyed it. He seems completely blind to what alcohol has
done to him.

~~~
dpark
> _Ive always been suspicious that alcohol in the United States is basically a
> thinly veiled means to privatize social interaction._

What does this mean?

~~~
mpclark
Wherever two or more people assemble, somebody gets to make a profit from it?

~~~
dpark
Okay? But that doesn’t make any sense because most assemblies (see:
employment) of people don’t involve alcohol.

~~~
swagasaurus-rex
Well, employment would mean social interaction at the workplace is privatized.

Unless its government work. Then it would be fraternizing.

~~~
dpark
So pick literally any other social interaction that doesn’t require alcohol
consumption. Aside from literal alcohol tastings, I’m not sure that _any_
social interactions require alcohol.

------
likemybooze
It seems very difficult to get reliable information about what constitutes
problem drinking.

I think the best answer might be “if it’s interfering with your life in ways
that bother you, you have a problem.”

I am what my doctor would term a “heavy drinker” since I probably average 20
units (10g by weight) per week.

That’s two cocktails, or half a bottle of wine, or three beers, every night.

I would say maybe once every two months I will have an additional drink, so I
am very consistent at that level. The last time I recall being drunk is
probably 18 years ago. I’ve never enjoyed having an excess of alcohol in my
system.

Some doctors respond to this level of drinking with shock and horror. Others
act as if it’s slightly too much and suggest maybe two nights a week without
drinking would solve the problem. Others seem to think that problem drinking
is when you get most of your calories from alcohol. I literally had a doctor
tell me that this is the definition of alcoholism, and that it always goes
hand-in-hand with malnutrition.

The only thing I am certain about from what I have read is that the healthiest
quantity of alcohol you can drink is zero. That’s right. The studies that say
one glass a wine a day improves your health and longevity - well, they all
seem to be flawed in one way or another.

Here’s the thing - I really don’t like feeling very tipsy - that’s why it’s so
rare I have more than two cocktails. What I do like is the taste. Of beer,
wine, cocktails, straight whisky. I only drink when I eat, and I find it hard
to eat dinner without a drink because I like the bitter or sweet taste of the
alcohol with the food.

If I _need_ to stop for some reason, eg because of oral surgery, etc, I don’t
find it difficult.

But I still wonder whether I am slowly pickling my liver and just need to cut
back.

Can anyone relate?

~~~
vasilipupkin
there is pretty strong evidence that moderate drinking is beneficial, It isn't
just one study, it's multiple studies done over many years in multiple
countries.

[https://www.insider.com/drinking-health-benefits-heart-
nutri...](https://www.insider.com/drinking-health-benefits-heart-
nutrition-2019-10#by-drinking-moderately-you-can-reap-the-nutritional-
benefits-offered-by-wine-and-beer-10)

~~~
likemybooze
Have you read the studies or the ones that disagree?

It’s been a few years now but I have. Time and time again the conclusion seems
to be that the studies that say drinking is beneficial are screwing something
up, eg the result is based on including very sick people who don’t drink
because of their poor health, and these people die younger (and thus skew the
results toward making it look like drinking increases longevity).

The studies that correct for this and other issues generally either conclude
zero alcohol is best, or in one case I recall a study that concluded 5g (in
other words a third of a shot, a third of a beer, or third of a glass of wine)
had a minimal positive impact and by the time you got to 10g it was neutral
and anything beyond 10g started reducing lifespan.

Sorry I don’t have any references. I looked into this in detail a while back
and didn’t save any of what I found.

~~~
vasilipupkin
Doubtful that this is a valid objection. On the flip side, you would have to
also exclude people who drink and drive because they skew mortality stats in
ways that are not applicable to those who drink but don’t drive. Also, studies
on benefits are not just about pure correlation with longevity but various
beneficial effects.

~~~
bilegeek
Even excluding violent and chemical death, the third cause is cancer. Alcohol
is classified as a carcinogen by IARC[1], the WHO[5] and the CDC[2]. I'm not
well read on the subject - nor particularly well researched - but a cursory
glance shows metabolic byproducts as the main culprit, though there are other
factors.

As to "beneficial effects", keep in mind that the trace amounts of something
healthy would pale in comparison to the negative effects of the alcohol, which
is much less of a trace chemical.

Plus, other lifestyle choices could give a false positive[4]. Stuff like
eating properly and exercising might not be properly controlled for, giving an
unrealistically rosy picture.

[1][https://publications.iarc.fr/62](https://publications.iarc.fr/62)

[2][https://www.cdc.gov/cancer/alcohol/index.htm](https://www.cdc.gov/cancer/alcohol/index.htm)

[3][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_and_cancer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_and_cancer)

[4][https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/is-red-wine-good-
actuall...](https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/is-red-wine-good-actually-for-
your-heart-2018021913285)

[5][https://www.who.int/substance_abuse/publications/global_stat...](https://www.who.int/substance_abuse/publications/global_status_report_2004_overview.pdf)

(The first page has a downloadable PDF. Didn't link directly because it auto-
downloads, at least for me.)

EDIT: link formatting, removal of extraneous "keep in mind".

~~~
vasilipupkin
The point about eating properly and exercising - that’s irrelevant since it’s
not mutually exclusive with moderate drinking. You can drink moderately AND
eat properly and exercise. The point about alcohol being a carcinogen is sort
of irrelevant too since apparently it’s not enough of a carcinogen to affect
longevity

------
joe_the_user
Interesting, Alcohol consumption over-all has declined since the start of the
20th century with the US seemingly being alone among advanced nations in
having an increase in the last 10 years.[1]

It seem logical the rise in death from alcoholism is broadly related to the
"death from despair" phenomena many credit for declining US life expectancy.

[1][https://ourworldindata.org/alcohol-
consumption](https://ourworldindata.org/alcohol-consumption), see chart
"Alcohol consumption per capita"

------
ronnier
The state of men in the US is really deteriorating. Men are drugging,
drinking, and smoking theirselves to death. And sometimes the death is very
explicit, being by suicide which is climbing to rates higher than ever.
Prisons are filled with men, universities are increasingly seeing fewer men
than women. Men are increasingly sexless much longer than females. Seems we
have a big problem on our hands.

~~~
umvi
From TFA: "Some of the greatest increases were found among women ..."

~~~
downerending
On a percentage basis, yes. In terms of absolute numbers, it appears that men
are still "winning".

I do expect women to catch up--despair is ultimately an equal-opportunity
killer.

~~~
mensetmanusman
Prohibition was the result of women fed up with drunk men the first time
around

------
jokowueu
>The research shows that in 2017, alcohol proved to be even more deadly than
illicit drugs, including opioids. That year there were about 70,000 drug
overdose deaths — about 2,300 fewer than those involving alcohol,

>Only cigarettes are deadlier than alcohol: More than 480,000 people die each
year in the U.S. because of smoking-related illnesses.

I didn't realise how much worse this is compared to the opioid epedemic .

~~~
throwaway5752
This is an abuse of statistics. I'm not trying to minimize alcohol, but it is
like saying _" putting up Christmas tree lights is more dangerous than BASE
jumping"_

On a population basis, putting up Christmas lights kills far more people than
BASE jumping. But the danger from each activity in isolation isn't comparable
at all.

Far more people drink and smoke than use opioids.

The relationship between opioids and cigarette smoking/vaping appears to be
complicated, to complicate things.

~~~
dave_b
I’d also argue that, on average, the negative impact of an opioid-related
death is greater than that of a smoking-related death. The latter tends to
manifest as chronic health issues that extend into old age. Terrible, yes, but
these people have at least had relatively full lives with the opportunity to
have children and be productive for most it. It’s more akin to obesity than a
drug overdose.

Opioid-related deaths tend to involve the rapid destruction of lives, often of
young people full of potential, culminating in sudden death due to overdose.
Their friends and family then have to live with that horror for the rest of
their lives. In terms of lost potential and the psychological trauma
inflicted, there’s no comparison. It’s understandable that people consider
opioids to be a worse problem than smoking.

------
ajuc
Every measurable escapism mechanism possible in USA is off the charts. People
continue to blame them instead of solving the real issue - death of the middle
class.

~~~
rudedogg
I wonder if the issue is deeper than that. It seems like a lot of people lack
a “purpose” in life - something bigger than oneself.

I say this because the people I know who have died from, or have alcohol
problems, are (or were) pretty well off financially. I know that’s not
typical, but being upper or upper-middle class doesn’t seem to matter in my
experience.

------
pfdietz
It's been a decade since my brother, who had suffered from alcoholism for
years, ended his life. He had withdrawn from the family and let his personal
life go all to hell financially, including a large chunk of unpaid Virginia
income taxes. I wish I had realized what trouble he was in, but I'm not sure
it would have helped if I had.

Financial distress is tied in to all this substance abuse, both as a cause and
a consequence.

~~~
IGotThroughIt
Man, I'm so sorry you went through this with your brother.

It's better to lay off the booze completely or until one can gain control - if
that's even possible for you. I find that it makes a bad situation worse.

For anyone going through this, my experience and general advice is as follows:

You need to feel the pain that you're going through instead of masking it with
alcohol. Pain lets you know something's gone awry and that you need to address
it asap.

I don't know if anyone has any literary references that alcohol enhances
anxiety and depression - because I'd like to see it - but it was my
experience.

~~~
pfdietz
I think in his case, he had just given up, and decided he was going to die
relatively young. In that scenario, why not run up big debts? He must have
been planning his exit for a while.

The slightest silver lining was that no one in the family felt any need to
step up and go through the traumatic experience of administering his estate:
it had negative value, so what would have been the point? I'm not sure
whatever happened to his car, which was left parked on the street somewhere. I
also felt sorry for the people he had rented his house from, as he left it in
a state that required considerable repair. They tried to get the family to pay
for that, but of course they had no legal leg to stand on. I told the court
I'd have no objection to them, as debtors, handling the estate, if they wished
to do so, but they never did.

------
yibg
I was always a drinker and quite into a few types of drinks but it wasn’t ever
into problem drinking territory. There were some episodes of binge drinking
during teenage years but mostly I’d drink when socializing but never had
cravings for alcohol.

Several years ago I was going through a rough time in my life and started to
have a drink when I go home from work. At first it was just a single drink
maybe twice a week, but grew from there. Within a few months it grew into
problematic territory. It never got to the point where it was interfering with
other aspects of life and I didn’t ha e a physical dependency but I eventually
recognized the issue.

Looking back it was clearly a coping mechanism. But the bad thing is how
gradually it stuck up on me, and how long it took (About a year for me) to
recognize it as a problem. The line I think is very much thinner than most of
us think.

------
big_chungus
Opioid issues are easy PR, which is why they get the limelight. The perception
is that only junkies abuse opioids, but lots of people drink alcohol; it's
"normal", unlike opioids. As someone who doesn't drink, I've personally had a
difficult time for not doing so (professionally, socially, etc.) because
there's very much an expectation that everyone does. It's the typical "other
guy is bad" strategy, and serves as a safe public issue for politicians to
attack without pissing off parts of their constituency. Same reason we don't
see any movement on the sky-rocketing rates of venereal disease: also regarded
as normal, and discouraging the behaviors that lead to it won't get votes.

~~~
awb
> I've personally had a difficult time for not doing so (professionally,
> socially, etc.)

It was the same for me for about 6 months, maybe a year. Then people stopped
offering drinks or asking why I didn't drink and things felt normal again. I
think part of it was not going in to how bad it is for you because people who
drink already know.

I don't get uncomfortable without a drink, but if I feel like other people are
anxious that I'm not drinking sometimes it helps to have an opaque cup with
water (at home) or a mocktail (at a bar) so from across the room it looks like
I have a drink.

I've found that most 30+ yrs old people that asked why I don't drink don't
really like drinking either and feel like they won't have fun or enjoy the
party as much or fit in if they don't drink, but that they don't like the
bloating or hangover effects if they have more than a drink or two.

~~~
tyfon
> I've found that most 30+ yrs old people that asked why I don't drink don't
> really like drinking either and feel like they won't have fun or enjoy the
> party as much or fit in if they don't drink, but that they don't like the
> bloating or hangover effects if they have more than a drink or two.

I'm about to cross 40 and I've stopped drinking completely. I don't enjoy the
feeling and even after one beer I get depressed for three days following.

There are lots of comments when I'm doing something socially but I just don't
care. It's not my job to make people feel good about their drug use.

~~~
awb
> There are lots of comments when I'm doing something socially but I just
> don't care

I can see how people might feel abandoned when social bonds that formed in and
around drinking now have to adapt. Keep going though, your body will
appreciate it even if your friends don't right now. And if the friendship
can't survive you not drinking, it might not be that healthy of a friendship
anyway.

------
droithomme
Alcohol sales went up after the 2008 crash. Drug and alcohol use increases
when the economy is bad. Now that the economy is good, if this continues, the
trend should hopefully decline. Though affordable and effective treatment may
be necessary as well. Most addiction treatment centers are extremely
ineffective and costly.

------
holdenc
Since we are sharing stories... I moved to East Asia, which can be an adult
daycare for Western alcoholics, and realized not only could I drink every
night of the week and still have a job, healthcare, significant other, and
lots of friends -- this was becoming my life. I quit cold turkey about 8 years
ago. Still in Asia, with a lot fewer friends, but getting deep sleep at night,
and am able to focus and relax my mind almost on-demand, which was impossible
before.

------
Balanceinfinity
what's amazing about alcohol is that it's been around a long time and people
have been self medicating with it for just as long.

[http://theconversation.com/hard-evidence-how-much-did-our-
an...](http://theconversation.com/hard-evidence-how-much-did-our-ancestors-
drink-and-are-we-drinking-more-32842)

------
CamperBob2
Of course, frequently what this kind of headline actually means is, "We
changed the definition of 'alcohol-related death' to encompass causes of
deaths that were happening all along."

------
LeonM
Alcohol culture differs per region. In most western Europe countries
(Netherlands, Germany) alcohol free / low-ABV beer has been gaining a lot of
popularity. More and more people, myself included, prefer alcohol free over
regular beer, because you get the social benefits without the all the
downsides of alcohol.

However, during my visit to Canada last year I asked a waiter at a bar for an
alcohol free beer and she basically made fun of me. Making the "that's like
sex without an orgasm" joke.

~~~
whiddershins
I have never seen alcohol free beer offered in Berlin or Amsterdam. I can’t
tell whether I just haven’t noticed, or whether your experience is really
specific.

~~~
LeonM
All major German and Dutch beer brands have alcohol free versions. I'd
estimate that about 1/4th of the shelf space in the beer department in my
local supermarket (Albert Heijn) is dedicated to alcohol free or low ABV beer.

I'm pretty confident to say that just about every bar and restaurant in the
Netherlands serves alcohol free beer.

------
self_awareness
I'd be happy if alcohol would be classified the same way as drugs. Because
that's what it is -- narcotics. But it has so big social allowance that
probably it will never happen.

From strange reason alcohol is very different than drugs, it's freely
available in shops, yet we _all_ know at least 1 person that is an alcoholic
or lots of us have at least 1 alcoholic person in the family.

~~~
sneak
I’d be happy if they were classed together - and adult human beings were not
penalized in any way for putting any of them into the one thing that
unambiguously belongs exclusively to themselves: their own body.

I am pretty sure we all know at least one person addicted to caffeine and at
least one person addicted to opiates, too.

------
atlasunshrugged
A bit off topic but has anyone tried Naltrexone or the Sinclair Method? I did
a bit of research on it, tried it a few times but it gave me killer headaches
but it seems like a really novel/interesting way to quit outside of the usual
AA approach which was always a bit culty/unscientific for my liking

~~~
austingulati
I've been using TSM for about three months now. Prior to starting, I was a
frequent binge drinker and experienced significant memory loss from drinking
once per week on average. After three months, my interest in drinking is very
little to none. TSM gave me my life back.

If the headaches you are referring to are hangovers, this is common and
happened to me. The community often refers to them as "Nalovers". Those
stopped for me when my consumption got down to a safe level. I recommend
sticking to the method if it is just that your hangovers are now much worse.

------
markpapadakis
From [https://500ish.com/offline-
curious-85363c4aed18](https://500ish.com/offline-curious-85363c4aed18)

> One trend I’m most curious about right now is the rise of no or low alcohol
> drinks. I noticed this in Europe years ago — that nearly everywhere you went
> they not only offered, but touted non-alcoholic beverages in bars —
> highlighting the opposite approach the US was taking: pushing more extreme
> alcoholic drinks like Four Loko and the like, with non-alcoholic drinks
> being almost a taboo here. That is changing, quite quickly, it seems.

------
mfkp
Just as an example of how normalized and encouraged drinking is, this is
currently #8 on reddit's homepage:
[https://old.reddit.com/r/HumansBeingBros/comments/emya64/saw...](https://old.reddit.com/r/HumansBeingBros/comments/emya64/saw_this_on_rmademesmile_and_i_think_its_the/)

------
whiddershins
Ok so now I’ve been running around looking at charts.

To clarify: I think alcohol can be a pernicious social and mental health
problem.

But there’s also something weird with 1999. Suicides seemed lowest that year
and I think that might relate to the drinking deaths as well.

Which makes comparing to that year a little dicey, because I think it creates
a false sense of a trend that might not exist.

~~~
DanBC
> But there’s also something weird with 1999

Are you looking at the year the death happened, or the year it was registered?

We think there's a "cohort effect" with suicide deaths. So, all people born in
decade X have a higher rate of death by suicide, and we see this as they get
older. Here's an example from England.

[https://twitter.com/ProfLAppleby/status/1161940914308300801?...](https://twitter.com/ProfLAppleby/status/1161940914308300801?s=20)

Here's CDC suggesting that may be a factor:
[https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6217a1.htm?s_cid...](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6217a1.htm?s_cid&)

> Possible contributing factors for the rise in suicide rates among middle-
> aged adults include the recent economic downturn (historically, suicide
> rates tend to correlate with business cycles, with higher rates observed
> during times of economic hardship) (6,7); a cohort effect, based on evidence
> that the "baby boomer" generation had unusually high suicide rates during
> their adolescent years (8); and a rise in intentional overdoses associated
> with the increase in availability of prescription opioids (1,2). Additional
> research is needed to understand the cause of the increase in age-adjusted
> suicide rates and why the extent of the increase varies across racial/ethnic
> populations.

~~~
whiddershins
That’s extremely interesting.

That chart is fascinating.

I don’t think that really addresses my point though. My point is that
comparing to 1999 might create a skewed statistical perspective because that
seems to be around the time when Americans were engaging in the least self
harm.

------
claudeganon
Between this, the spike in suicides across the US, and the opioid crisis, the
US appears to be experiencing a kind of “die off” whose only analogue I can
think of is post-Soviet Russia. I wonder if we’ll be able to correct course or
continue to believe that things like rising GDP, unmoored from the material
reality of most people, can paper over these trends.

~~~
elfexec
> the US appears to be experiencing a kind of “die off” whose only analogue I
> can think of is post-Soviet Russia.

Not even close. Russia's 1990s "die off" was so severe that the current
russian population is lower than it was in 1990. 30 years after the collapse
of the Soviet Union, Russia still has less people. In the same period, the US
population grew from 240 million to 330 million. In 2010, the US population
was 308 million. So even in this "die off" decade, our population grew.

To show how devastating the soviet collapse was for russia just compare that
to the devastation of ww2. After ww2, russia's population recovered after 10
years. They still haven't recovered in 30 years after the soviet collapse.
This is also true for the economy as well.

The soviet collapse was far worse for russia than ww2 by any measure. It is by
any objective measure, the worst thing to happen to any country in the 20th
century. Were it not for russia's nukes, they'd be a source of pity. They've
fallen so far and haven't gotten back up. And it's been 30 years. 1.5
generations.

~~~
watwut
> The soviet collapse was far worse for russia than ww2 by any measure.

That is literally not true, by a lot. Ww2 hit russia harder then west which
was hit super hard. There was whole year of males basically killed (not sure
which one, but the ones that were 18 when it all started I think). There were
massive atrocities against civilian population, whole areas burned down and
all that uncontrolled violence going on along with ethnical cleansing.

What happened is that post ww2, people had children. You lived in communism
and people turned into familly instead of to career.

Post communist russia has less children for the same reasons why western
countries have less children - you got options if you are ambitious and also
need to work if you are not.

~~~
elfexec
> Ww2 hit russia harder then west which was hit super hard.

I know. Russia suffered greatly in ww2. That's my point. It's why I compared
ww2 to the soviet collapse. That's how awful the soviet collapse was for
russia. It was even worse than ww2. I never claimed the west suffered more
than russia in ww2. No country suffered more than russia in ww2.

> What happened is that post ww2, people had children.

Not only that they had jobs and hope for the future. Life expectancy
increased, everything got better. They became the 2nd largest economy in the
world. Everything improved not just from ww2, but even prior to ww2.

The exact opposite happened after the soviet collapse. They stopped having
children, people died in droves, life expectancy dropped dramatically, their
economy tanked from being #2 economy in the world to a third world hellhole
being picked apart by foreign vultures, etc. Even today, 30 years later,
russia still hasn't recovered. It took russia 10 years to recover from ww2. In
30 years, russia has yet to recover. In other words, russia is worse off today
in population, economy, international clout, etc than they were 30 years ago.

> Post communist russia has less children for the same reasons why western
> countries have less children - you got options if you are ambitious and also
> need to work if you are not.

We have less children because we are wealthy and selfish. Russia isn't
wealthy. Also, given the growth the west has enjoyed in the last 30 years, we
can afford to have less children ( though we probably should be having more ),
but russia doesn't have that luxury.

Anyways, people think since bombs weren't dropped during the soviet collapse
that ww2 was the worst thing russia experienced in the 20th century, but an
objective analysis clearly shows otherwise. Winning ww2 helped russia advance
and improve. Losing the cold war truly damaged russia in ways that it doesn't
seem capable of recovering from. Not only that Russia has a higher median age
than the US. So not only is russia older, it's poorer than the US. That
doesn't bode too well for future russian prospects.

~~~
watwut
Childbirths went down everywhere easter and central Europe. And it is not just
poverty - if anything midle class and educated women are less likely to have
kids.

It is often oportunities to not be mom at home that attract women.

"Objective analysis" that centers on birthrate only is not objective at all.
Especially when it ignores effects of Stalin rule on people and conflates
ruling party health with populace health.

Comunist regime did not had healthy economy - it is one of reasons why it
became weak.

~~~
elfexec
> Childbirths went down everywhere easter and central Europe

Yes, warsaw pact nations and former eastern european soviet nations also
suffered. But russia suffered the most since they were the core of the soviet
union.

> And it is not just poverty - if anything midle class and educated women are
> less likely to have kids.

I didn't say it was. My point was that the russian population dropped from
near 150 million in the early 1990s and is still below that today ( 30 years
later ). My point is that in the 90s, russian life expectancy dropped
dramatically 10%+ - this is not normal. My point is that russia's economy is
nowhere near what it was in 1990s ( second largest economy in the world ).

> Especially when it ignores effects of Stalin rule on people and conflates
> ruling party health with populace health.

What? As if yeltsin's or putin's rule were any better?

> "Objective analysis" that centers on birthrate only is not objective at all.

I didn't just look at birthrates. You seem to be fixated on it. I'm talking
about population. Russia's population declined in 30 years. That's not a good
thing - especially for a poor country.

> Comunist regime did not had healthy economy - it is one of reasons why it
> became weak.

It was healthy enough to be the 2nd largest economy for most of the cold war.
The capitalist regime didn't have a healthy economy after the soviet collapse.
Even during stalin's purges, the indicators weren't as bad as they were in the
1990s.

I'm just talking about objective stats. Not sure why you are bring communism
or stalin into the mix. The 10 years after ww2 were far better for russians
than the 10 years after the soviet collapse. This is just statiscal fact. Go
look at every measurement. Economic, cultural, political, demographic, etc.
The soviet union grew and advanced in nearly every metric during the decade
after ww2. Russia declined in every metric during the 10 years after the
soviet collapse.

Seems like winning a hot war is better than losing a cold war. I'm not saying
communism is good or bad. I'm not saying stalin was good or bad. I'm just
saying that russian life was better in the immediate years after ww2 than
after the soviet collapse - purely in objective statistical terms.

I'm just talking about the effects of ww2 and the soviet collapse in objective
terms. Maybe it's psychological. Winning boosts a nation's confidence and
losing destroys a nation's confidence. I don't know. What we know is that 10
years after ww2, russia improved greatly and 10 years after the soviet
collapse, russia regressed. Even 30 years later, russia still hasn't gotten
back to the starting line.

~~~
watwut
Yes, yeltsin's or putin's rule were better then Stalin rule.

> Not sure why you are bring communism or stalin into the mix. The 10 years
> after ww2 were far better for russians than the 10 years after the soviet
> collapse.

Bringing up Stalin, cause you talk about period of history when stalin ruled -
after ww2.

And absolutely, Russian people were not better off after ww2 - the country was
still destroyed, villages still burned and only slowly rebuilding,
dictatorship was in full swing, including very real oppression, torture fear
and what not. Oh, and purges were right before that war, so country started it
already down.

After wwii: Famine of 1946-1947 with some residue of famine in 1948. Good
thing indicators grew after that, but that makes people just not dying of
hunger rather then we'll off.

The war was followed by smaller purges, to the point some expected large ones
to start around stalin death. Closely after war is when cultural purge
happened.

Not even speaking about what russia did in territories they took over (and no
we did not wanted them) and what they did to Ukraine.

------
thrower123
The most interesting trend in alcohol of late is that a lot more of the abuse
is coming from women than has historically been the case. Endless mimosa and
bloody mary brunches and drinking a bottle or two of wine every night seems to
be the main punctuation in the lives of most 20-something professional women
that I know.

------
rs23296008n1
All these addictions look very similar when you dig into the common points of
each. I'd recommend Johann Hari's exploration into addiction / depression. He
describes the root causes/commonalities in very accessible ways.

Helped me understand what is happening in myself and others. A lot of what we
treat as normal begins to have an addictive element to it when taken even
slightly too far. Social isolation isn't good for you and it causes ripple on
effects. That's just one cause of addiction. Most of us have many factors
simultaneously. This doesn't imply you're now an addict but the tendency is in
place.

------
rjkennedy98
> With the increases in alcohol use among women, there's been increases in
> harms for women including ER visits, hospitalization and deaths

Do people not care if men die? I do not understand why these snippets are
almost always put in press releases, even when the actual numbers show that
men are astonishingly more likely to die from the disease. I've seen articles
about how women's rates are rising faster, when the increase in men's death
over the same period is greater than the absolutely total number of women
affected! Its almost as if we have to mention that women are affected or
people will just ignore the problem all together. So sad.

------
ethanklitz
This is certainly an attention grabbing headline, but wouldn't 'years off life
expectancy' be a better metric to report to help people make life decisions? I
am sure there are studies out their collecting that data. How am I to make a
moderation decision based purely on a count a people with a specific cause of
death?

The vape lung disease is so concerning because it killed people in a few days
or a week. Where as cigarettes would reliably shave X years off someone's
life. I can easily make a decision to never use a vape at all or never from
underground source.

------
partiallypro
My grandfather was an alcoholic, which scared my dad to such an extent that he
won't drink at all. I drink fairly often, but only beer. I wonder in these
stats how much of this is liquor/spirits vs beer. I just can't see people
drinking themselves to death (as in overdosing) with beer because it makes you
so full feeling, where as liquor and wines require much less liquid to make
you intoxicated that it's much harder to judge and pace.

~~~
GordonS
Keep in mind that not all beer is 4% alcohol.

My grandfather was an alcoholic.

He was stationed at various places in Europe during WW2 and saw some truly
horrible things during that time. He had nightmares for the rest of his life.

After the war, he drank vodka for many years, then later switched to cheap,
strong lager (something like 8-10%, which tasted like cat's piss), which he
drank all day, every day, for another 20 years or so. He didn't eat much
during this time, presumably because he was full of lager.

A bit of an aside, but I may as well add some more, since we're sharing
stories. He ended up in hospital for a few weeks due to some condition caused
by his alcoholism (surprising it took so long, really), and nearly died. He
went through withdrawals during that time, and almost dieing gave him quite
the scare - he never touched another drop from that day on. It was quite
incredible how he was able to just stop with no relapse after drinking so
heavily for so long.

------
gbronner
Did they cite age specific death rates?

Population is up 20-30%, and the population of people likely to die of alcohol
poisoning much more so due to changing age structure.

Additionally, we lost a generation that had memories of prohibition and an
active temperance movement, and we've had a dramatic increase in women's labor
force and higher education participation, enabling them to drink as often as
men.

So the "doubled" comment seems overly dramatic

------
mike00632
The Journal of the American Medical association found in 2004 that alcohol was
the third leading cause of death in the United States behind tobacco and
diet/inactivity.

Mokdad, A.H.; Marks, J.S.; Stroup, D.F.; and Gerberding, J.L. Actual causes of
death in the United States 2000. [Published erratum in: JAMA 293(3):293–294,
298] JAMA: Journal of the American Medical Association 291(10):1238–1245,
2004. PMID: 15010446

------
ilaksh
Take a look at research like this "Macroeconomic conditions and alcohol
consumption: When the economy is down, alcohol consumption goes up".

------
randlet
Alcohol is really weird. It's unquestionably a pretty hard drug and yet it's
(ab)use is completely normalized in our culture. It's also a drug who's abuse
regularly kills people _other_ than those using it.

~~~
kerkeslager
> It's also a drug who's abuse regularly kills people other than those using
> it.

I don't think this is unique to alcohol. Nicotine and driving seems pretty
okay, but I can't think of any other deadly drugs out there which wouldn't
impair your driving.

EDIT: As other users have brought up, nicotine kills plenty of people other
than those using it, in the form of second-hand smoke.

~~~
quickthrowman
Cocaine, methamphetamine don’t impact your ability to drive well, but they may
make you drive more impulsively.

Opiates, benzos, and alcohol all affect technical driving skills in a negative
way.

I’m not opening the THC and driving can of worms.

~~~
kerkeslager
> Cocaine, methamphetamine don’t impact your ability to drive well, but they
> may make you drive more impulsively.

I'm very skeptical of this claim. Do you have any evidence?

Note that impressions of ones own performance while on drugs are not
necessarily accurate.

~~~
quickthrowman
As it turns out, I was using my own experience as a guide, but this meta
study[0] supports my claim. Lab tests imply better driving skills while real
word experience shows the opposite.

Cocaine and methamphetamine increase impulsivity, and “real users” (addicts)
of meth in particular are prone to stay up for extremely long periods of time,
long enough where the meth wouldn’t counteract the physical exhaustion, which
would account for meth leading to more accidents in real life conditions.

I still maintain that cocaine or meth would improve the driving skills and
response times for a rested person.

[0]
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22842792/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22842792/)

~~~
kerkeslager
> I still maintain that cocaine or meth would improve the driving skills and
> response times for a rested person.

Yeah, it does look like the evidence supports that. Interesting stuff.

If restedness is the real factor, it becomes pretty difficult to regulate
that. There are two problems I can think of:

1\. I don't think that someone being on meth or cocaine meets the burden of
proof to say they aren't rested.

2\. People drive without adequate rest, even _without_ stimulants. If someone
is hasn't slept in 48 hours, it seems like it would be better for them to be
on stimulants than not.

------
narrator
Also, in other disturbing news, suicide rates have been climbing steadily
since 2000[1]. This makes me wonder if the older anti-depressants are better
than the new ones.

[1][https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-
statistics/](https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/)

------
murph-almighty
wall o' text

Alcohol kind of creeps up on you over time.

I was in Greek Life in college. I don't regret a second of it, but the
drinking culture was omnipresent (we did have dry brothers but if you drank
you drank).

After college I moved back home. I had a few concerning episodes that one
could "pass" as a mildly embarassing thing (vomiting after a comedy show once
I was home, passing out during a family party). The first time my drinking
came to a head was when my then-SO called me at a work retreat and I realized
I had consumed about 30 drinks in the past 4 days- I was violently hungover
and unable to consume food.

Several months later, we broke up, a relative died, and I came into enough
money to pay off a significant enough chunk of my loans so that I could move
out. During this time my therapist suggested I curb my drinking but I didn't
really take him all that seriously. Dumb things kept happening- the most
prominent event during this period was that I vomited while drunk gaming
online with friends. Sometime after this I took my therapist's advice to quit
drinking for a week. My mind cleared up a lot but I resumed after.

Things came to a head when I woke up one day after a day-long bout of drinking
(I went to a tailgate and ended up going out to bars later that night). I felt
like my liver was going to explode. The worst part was that I had errands to
do that day and the entire time I felt like I was going to die.

I decided to indefinitely quit drinking. This was over this past November and
December, and I had a few holiday parties to go to- I mostly teetotaled at
them, but one conversation stuck out to me. A college friend who was older
than me told me she had to re-calibrate her drinking life post-grad to
function normally. I kind of realized that I hadn't done that.

I've started drinking again but I've kept it much more muted. I don't go to my
local bar after work anymore. I don't really club. I never really drank alone
much (the online gaming this was an outlier), so stopping that wasn't hard.

I do think there's a way to curb bad drinking habits, and I think I'm making
headway in doing that, but the key is to recognize that your habits are
problematic. Right now my mantra is

1) Have a predefined limit 2) Nurse the drink (I drink everything fast, so
this is hardest) 3) Don't let people pressure you. Don't feel the need to
drink at someone else's pace. Don't feel the need to take shots because
someone bought them from the group.

I know this isn't perfect, and I'm not truly abstaining for good, but I'm in a
way better place than I was before.

Don't make excuses for yourself. If you feel like alcohol is impacting you, do
something about it.

~~~
opportune
Some people are able to moderate drinking after periods of binge drinking but
if you find you can’t moderate after multiple attempts to do so, your best
strategy is to just quit.

It can be hard to not have anything to drink when everyone else is, but it’s
better than making a fool of yourself somewhat frequently

~~~
murph-almighty
Honestly if this latest attempt of moderation fails I don't see an option
other than quitting. This period has held up decently well so far though.

~~~
throw_this_one
I pretty much failed because I would just let it rip after a few drinks in a
"high energy" atmosphere. So I just decided to stop, at least for Dry Jan but
probably for 2020. Just feels so clean and also forces you to man up and "just
do it" socially.

------
rationalfaith
It baffles me how much the alcohol industry keeps pushing fake studies about
the "benefits" of alcohol. As if ANY of those benefits can be obtained without
the poison of alcohol.

Oh well, people drinking.... social darwinism. Drink away I guess

------
whiddershins
That statistic isn’t even adjusted for population increase?

------
tempsy
microdosing LSD has apparently been shown to extremely effective in curbing
alcoholism

~~~
mlrotter
I think microdosing is more a part of the nootropics world. Regular dose of
LSD or Psilocybin is associated with getting a new perspective on one's
addition, possibly by opening new pathway connections in the brain.

~~~
tempsy
i've only seen studies specifically targeting alcoholism and not other types
of addictions. in this case it may actually be physiological and not just
because LSD "gives you a new perspective" on something

~~~
ffdjjjffjj
Which studies?

