
Zero-Point Energy: Can We Get Something From Nothing? - cinquemb
http://info.publicintelligence.net/USArmy-ZeroPointEnergy.pdf
======
lutusp
In a word, no. Harvesting ZPE would violate energy conservation, and the law
of energy conservation is never broken.

~~~
cinquemb
I think I'd have to agree with you in general, but I'd also have to admit that
things start making me do a double take when you get down to the forces from
the casimir effect in the nanometer range between uncharged conductors that
make me think it would be in the realm of QFT for one much more versed than I
am to come up with some theoretical frame work that millennia from now would
be considered basic knowledge like conservation of energy was once thought of
in the past…

~~~
lutusp
> ... things start making me do a double take when you get down to the forces
> from the casimir effect ...

Yes, but static forces don't require energy. Only when force and motion are
combined is an energy expenditure required. Remember that Casimir effect
measurements are carried out by applying an external force to move two plates
together, which means the initial energy of motion comes from elsewhere, not
from the virtual realm.

~~~
cinquemb
> _Remember that Casimir effect measurements are carried out by applying an
> external force to move two plates together_

So an external field not under control cannot be present (i.e. the
experimenter is not putting more energy into the system) to obtain
measurements?

~~~
lutusp
My only point was that the Casimir Effect doesn't represent the harvesting of
energy, only force, force isn't energy, therefore the effect doesn't violate
energy conservation. This is consistent with both quantum theory, in which
virtual particles can't unbalance nature's account books, and energy
conservation, a principle that stands at the center of most present physical
theories. Here's an example:

[http://arachnoid.com/conservation_of_energy/#Planetary_Orbit...](http://arachnoid.com/conservation_of_energy/#Planetary_Orbit_Example)

~~~
cinquemb
I don't think the PDF was saying that it could violate energy conservation,
nor was the actual content implying something from nothing (the title did
though), but it did imply that there is a possibility that the forces present
in an existing system (i.e. non conducting plates within a region of space
under the influence of an external field), could be transferred to a much
smaller system without the experimenter using energy to apply a force. I think
that because something else is going on that can't be explained for, is the
reason why people are looking in the first place. Here's an example of
that[0]:

"Surprisingly, with pyrrole the predicted ‘activation barriers’ were way out,
with calculations “less than a third of the measured value”. After much head
scratching, puzzled scientists turned to a purely quantum phenomenon called
‘zero-point energy’.

In classical physics, an object losing energy can continue to do so until it
can be thought of as sitting perfectly still. In the quantum world, this is
never the case: everything always retains some form of residual – even
undetectable – energy, known as ‘zero-point energy’.

While ‘zero-point energy’ is well known to be associated with motion of the
atoms contained in molecules, it was previously believed that such tiny
amounts of energy simply don’t affect the molecule as a whole to any
measurable extent, unless the molecule broke apart.

But now, the researchers have discovered that the “quantum nature” of the
molecule's internal motion actually does affect the molecule as a whole as it
moves across the surface, defying the ‘classical’ laws that it’s simply too
big to feel quantum effects."

[0] [http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/movement-of-pyrrole-
molec...](http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/movement-of-pyrrole-molecules-
defy-classical-physics)

~~~
lutusp
> But now, the researchers have discovered that the “quantum nature” of the
> molecule's internal motion actually does affect the molecule as a whole as
> it moves across the surface, defying the ‘classical’ laws that it’s simply
> too big to feel quantum effects."

Well, first, Heisenberg's uncertainly principle doesn't place an upper bound
on the size of a mass susceptible to quantum effects, only the probability. An
easy way to picture this is to say that flipping a fair coin once has equal
probability to come up heads (1) or tails (0). But for a single flip, 1/2 is
not a possible outcome.

For a million coin flips, an averaged result of 1 or 0 is still a possibility,
but it is extremely unlikely, whereas an averaged outcome of 1/2, which was
impossible for a single coin flip, is now rather likely. This means there is
no mass or size threshold for quantum effects, as many people think -- the
effects just become less apparent.

But it's important to distinguish between quantum effects and energy state. If
a system's wave function collapses and a superposition of states becomes one
state, that state cannot have more or less energy than any other possible
state. Expressed another way, if you open Schrödinger's box and the cat is
dead, the dead cat can't have more or less energy than the living cat.

The bottom line is that quantum theories don't violate energy conservation,
and all the talk about ZPE leading to spacecraft drives arises from people who
don't understand physics.

> "... defying the ‘classical’ laws that it’s simply too big to feel quantum
> effects."

This is a case of a journalist who also doesn't understand quantum theory. No
classical laws are being defied, and there is no mass so big that it cannot
experience quantum effects. The reason is easy to explain -- a huge mass is
composed of individual atoms, and individual atoms experience quantum effects.
Q.E.D. :)

~~~
cinquemb
> _The bottom line is that quantum theories don 't violate energy
> conservation, and all the talk about ZPE leading to spacecraft drives arises
> from people who don't understand physics._"

And from the PDF:

"The topic of successfully exploiting zero point energy (ZPE) has importance
because it represents a high-risk/high pay-off technology. This is not pseudo-
science but a very serious discipline where very serious research is underway
worldwide that range from investigating the Casimir effect, finding new
alternative sources of energy, and developing a means of future long-range
space travel. Efforts are currently underway at a U.S. aerospace corporation
to include creating hardware to investigate using ZPE to provide energy.
Finally, one would like to see experimental data and, hopefully, replication
of such experiments representative of 'good' science. However, the amount of
U.S. research dollars spent in this endeavor is abysmal such that even the
simplest experiment cannot be performed. Although we are aware of only modest
funding worldwide for this type of research, the Intelligence Community should
monitor the more controversial aspects of ZPE, or we may miss an important
foreign innovational leap forward, thereby leaving us vulnerable to technology
surprise."

So I guess governments/universities/organizations who fund research for
scientists and physicists around the world have much to learn from you since
you know what is and what cannot be :P

~~~
lutusp
> So I guess governments/universities/organizations who fund research for
> scientists and physicists around the world have much to learn from you since
> you know what is and what cannot be ...

No, not just me -- anyone with the most superficial familiarity with quantum
theory knows that virtual particles cannot upset nature's energy bookkeeping.

Also, the author of the PDF is trying to make this sound like a serious
research project with governmental support, when it is nothing of the kind --
there are no "governments/universities/organizations" involved in this
activity. Here's the dead-giveaway line:

"However, the amount of U.S. research dollars spent in this endeavor is
abysmal such that even the simplest experiment cannot be performed."

If that's true, then it is not science. The PDF is filled with this sort of
handwaving claim, but without any substantiation, without any specifics.

Here's a classic crackpot alert (not by the author of the PDF, but a quotation
from elsewhere):

"This is not pseudo-science but a very serious discipline where very serious
research is underway worldwide that range from investigating the Casimir
effect, finding new alternative sources of energy, and developing a means of
future long-range space travel."

All this without being able to do any experiments, a sure sign of
pseudoscience.

And notice the attribution for the above quotation -- "an analyst at Defense
Intelligence Agency (DIA)" \-- but the article doesn't identify the person, a
no-no in any technical or scientific publication.

The PDF contains obvious and glaring falsehoods, example: "While grand plans
of harvesting large amounts of energy from the vacuum to propel vehicles
through deep space is better suited for science fiction, it may eventually be
possible to use small amounts of energy (picowatts) from the vacuum for long-
term space travel." This is not how the Casimir Effect works, and the author
of this article has no idea what she is talking about.

The Casimir Effect is a force, not a source of energy, and the force is
symmetrical -- it can't propel anything in a particular direction, i.e. the
net force outside the region of the plates is zero. It is to space travel what
blowing on your own sail is to sailing.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-
point_energy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-point_energy)

Quote: "Over the years, there have been numerous claims of devices capable of
extracting usable zero-point energy. None of the claims have ever been
confirmed by the scientific community at large, and most of these claims are
dismissed either by default, after third party inspection of such a device or
based on disbelief in the viability of a technical design and theoretical
corroboration. _Current claims to zero-point-energy-based power generation
systems are considered pseudoscience by the scientific community at large._ "

Q.E.D.

~~~
cinquemb
> _Also, the author of the PDF is trying to make this sound like a serious
> research project with governmental support, when it is nothing of the kind
> -- there are no "governments/universities/organizations"…_

What about on page 4?:

"(U) Brazil, perhaps the most surprising entry on the publications chart,
conducts research into measurements of Casimir force between different types
of conducting plates that have varying designs. It is noteworthy that many of
the researchers working in and with Brazil are Russian or originally from
Russia. The Brazilian research also mirrors Russian research (i.e., studying
the Casimir force using different setups of conducting plates). Both Brazil
and Russia appear to be focused, at a basic-science level, on maximizing the
energy obtainable from the Casimir force. A.N. Petrosyan, of the Moscow
Engineering Physics Institute, and Yu.E. Lozovik, of the Institute of
Spectroscopy of Russian Academy of Science, are conducting research into ZPE
to create massless particles in a cavity, but the value of this research is
questionable. (U) Research in France and a collaborative effort between the
United Kingdom (UK) and Iran comprise two of the most promising recent
ventures in ZPE, as it pertains to MEMS and NEMS. The French are researching
the possibilities of using the Casimir force to drive nanoscale ratchets in
the hope of creating novel contactless translational actuation for NEMS or to
move tiny objects in a liquid. The UK-Iran effort has similar goals and
focuses on a rack-and-pinion powered by Casimir forces to enable contactless
translation to avoid wear of the components. This work has demonstrated
devices that hold up to high velocities and is a good example of valuable work
in ZPE for use in practical applications. (U) Germany has solid research
programs in theoretical calculations, modeling, and experimental measurements
of Casimir forces in various conducting-plate and cavity configurations.
Germany's research appears aimed more at basic science than in engineering for
applications. (U) India is studying the use of the Casimir effect for MEMS
devices, such as calculations of effects for different hypothetical designs,
but the work is more theoretical than experimental or for practical"

> _And notice the attribution for the above quotation -- "an analyst at
> Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA)" \-- but the article doesn't identify the
> person, a no-no in any technical or scientific publication._

To me it doesn't seem like a technical or scientific publication at all, just
reporting on what is going on in the field and who's doing research, where the
contact information for the people that composed/involved is listed at the end
of the PDF (page 7-8). The report is even cited in the wikipedia article you
quote.

~~~
lutusp
>> Also, the author of the PDF is trying to make this sound like a serious
research project with governmental support, when it is nothing of the kind --
there are no "governments/universities/organizations"…

> What about on page 4?:

> "(U) Brazil, perhaps the most surprising entry on the publications chart ...

Easy to answer -- there are none of the usual trappings of research,
quantitative measurements, names and locations of facilities, literature
references. Also look at all the qualifiers within the quotation: "... but the
value of this research is questionable ... but the work is more theoretical
than experimental or for practical application ...". Not the wording of a
scientific effort.

> To me it doesn't seem like a technical or scientific publication at all ...

That's because it isn't, which supports the claim that it's pseudoscience.

> The report is even cited in the wikipedia article you quote.

You mean the article that labeled this topic pseudoscience and used the
subject article as part of its evidence for that conclusion?

To summarize, this is not how science works. All this talk about governmental
agencies, universities and so forth, has nothing to do with real science,
which relies only on evidence, not eminence. There's no evidence, and the idea
contradicts the most trivial reading of physical theory.

