

Ask HN: How to turn self-employment into employment?  - ivyirwin

I've been working for myself for the past 7 years and it's been great. But life is moving pretty fast and the security and reliability of a "real" job is looking more and more attractive. What's the best way to represent the time I've been working for myself when applying for a job?<p>In particular, I've been involved with a handful of failed startups (some I've started, some as an employee of sorts) and I find it difficult to translate the experience from those projects onto a resume (i.e. I didn't have a particular role because I was doing everything). And along those lines, while being self-employed I've picked up a variety of skill sets that don't fit a particular "category" on a resume.
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tptacek
So, let me be the one to come out and say this:

I've been in several interviews, both at startups and on more-established
teams, where a record of no-traction startup failures was a real neg. It can
have the appearance of someone who doesn't want to buckle down and work.

There is no reason --- none at all --- that you should put disfavorable
information on your resume. Pick a couple (2) of the most interesting-looking
attempts and showcase them. Leave everything else out.

Obviously, subcontracting, consulting, temp, and meaningful volunteer and
open-source work should get written up. If you worked for name-brand clients
who you're allowed to mention, and you were there for more than a couple
months, list them as if they were jobs, with a subhed like "on behalf of XYZ
Consulting, Inc.".

If you did most of your self-employed work under a single umbrella company
name (and, everyone else, here's a good reason why you should), list that
company for the largest possible time span. Freelance work counts! Having
helped run a consultancy for 4 years now, I'd look _more_ favorably on someone
who managed to keep a freelance practice running for 7 years.

~~~
ivyirwin
Thanks for putting the failures in perspective. I think my biggest challenge
on that front is to represent the time I spend on those projects without
showcasing the failure or leaving a time gap on the resume. Also, it would be
great to be able to represent the "intangibles" that come with startup
experience.

~~~
ApolloRising
What exactly do you do, it may help us to offer useful suggestions on how to
fix it

~~~
ivyirwin
Thanks for the offer. But in the spirit of HN, this question is for all of the
self-employed people out there that might one day need to put together the ol'
resume.

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jamesbritt
Not sure if this will translate to your situation, but I eventually figured
out that resumes need to show I created specific tangible benefits to whomever
was my employer at the time. For example, rather than say "Have 5 years of
Blub", I'd was better off saying, "Wrote code in Blub that reduced transaction
processing time, resulting in greater sales of foo."

Are there things in your experience that demonstrate the ability to add value
(even if the overall project failed)?

Brought a product to market? Improved overall development time? Unless you're
applying for some grunt cog coder job, I think (or hope, at least) that
showing you are capable of producing value under pressure would be of most
interest.

Whoever hires you can teach you the stuff you don't know.

~~~
tjpick
> I'd was better off saying, "Wrote code in Blub that reduced transaction
> processing time, resulting in greater sales of foo."

and better again by stating it as " wrote code in blub that increased sales by
25% and reduced transaction processing time by 50%"

There are probably some smaller successful sub-projects within the startup
failure.

~~~
jamesbritt
Yes, details can matter.

Note to all of you working regular jobs that you will eventually leave: Pay
attention _now_ to the value you are adding, and keep notes. It's very hard to
recall these sorts of details when you are depositing your final paycheck.

It really does look better when you have some actual numbers, and better yet
when you know they are true.

Even if you can only say, "Was part of a team that ...", the fact that you pay
attention value added, and not simply count the years spent sitting in a cube,
speaks volumes.

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tedshroyer
I had that same issue come up for me and I think the approach I've taken isn't
terrible. I updated my resume and for years I was contracting, I wrote a seven
word synopsis for each project I did during that time putting it all under a
big heading of "Contracting". I sent my updated resume to some recruiters and
they've gotten me several interviews. On the interviews, I've gone into great
detail on the relevant projects and mentioned the companies I worked for.

I haven't gotten a job from that part yet but at the same time that I was
dealing with recruiters, I called all my best clients and told them what was
going on with me to let them know I wasn't going to be available for future
work. During that call, I asked them to keep there ears open for anyone who
needed me full time. I ended up getting a job from one of my clients with the
understanding that I would be looking for a full time position. I had to give
him a really low rate though but the dependable income is really nice,
especially considering how many times I haven't gotten paid on jobs.

~~~
keeptrying
Ted you say that you didn't get paid on some jobs? What advice would you give
someone who is thinking of starting to freelance with respect to getting paid?
Any insights from having gone through the process yourself? Thanx

~~~
tedshroyer
Two things that I found which make it easier to get paid are working on site
at an hourly wage and sending your bills out weekly. Everybody gets to see how
hard you are working this way and there isn't any question about value. Also,
there is the added benefit of you gaining a deeper understanding of your
clients business instead of seeing only a small part of it.

Sending your bills out more often will stop clients from getting sticker
shock. Remote jobs I've done where I sent one bill at the end of three or four
weeks when the work was done were the hardest for me to get paid on, even from
people that I had success at getting paid by previously.

~~~
keeptrying
Cool thankx for that. A few more questions: 1\. In the case you didnt get
paid, what did you do? Did you send them a lawyer? 2\. How did you get your
first gig ? Thanx

~~~
tedshroyer
I've gotten all my jobs by word of mouth. The first person that didn't pay me,
I found out that he has a long list of people that he hasn't paid so I let it
go after several months. Since then, I've always limited how much I would do
for someone until there was a long term business relationship.

~~~
keeptrying
Cool thanx.

------
ApolloRising
From what I have seen in the recent market in california, if you are a coder
you should be ok, if you are not then you need to network a lot. People tend
to see big name companies and think they are a lot more worthy than people who
have been working on their own startups. I don't agree, but it is what I have
run into. It may be different in SF than LA but getting through that first HR
person hurdle tends to be tough.

If you are a coder they have no understanding of what you are doing most of
the time so they just forward it up the chain more readily.

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sireat
I had an even more extreme situation: 15 years of self-employed bumming,
startups, small-business and I did very little programming.

How I got a full-time programming job:

Find industry that I was interested in.

Research company that I was interested in.

Brush up on industry and company specific domain knowledge.

Tailored my CV to be relevant to company.

Get interview(direct personal e-mail to person responsible for hiring).

Nail linked-list building and recursive tree traversal in the interview.

Show industry specific knowledge in the interview.

Get job.

Note: industry specific knowledge was as important as programming knowledge.

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CyberFonic
Two extra things you could consider:

1\. Think of what you'd like to be doing and accentuate those achievements
that reinforce your past success in the areas that will allow you to do more
of what you want.

2\. In my experience, generalist experience often helps you in tricky
situations once you have the job. But, it doesn't win you jobs. Recruiters
will gloss over that stuff or even simply reject your CV. Accentuate your
strongest skills and achievements that clearly demonstrate them.

In the current job market, you want to position yourself as someone who
consistently delivers above average results that can't be off-shored. So all
those learning experiences (failed startups) are best papered over.

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actionjackson
You do the same thing everybody else does, show them what you have done, and
what you can do for them. The fact that you were involved in startups and
managed to stay afloat last 7 years is an asset to you, not a liability.

