
Windows Phone is dead - Tomte
http://www.theverge.com/2016/1/28/10864034/windows-phone-is-dead
======
WorldMaker
This clickbait title had me briefly concerned, but the only message here is
that sales are low, which isn't entirely unexpected or surprising.

Insider previews seem to indicate that Microsoft is still investing in making
Windows 10 a strong platform on every device including mobile, and I'm very
interested to see what this year's development starts to bring...

(Happy Lumia 950 user.)

~~~
bhauer
Also notable is the use of the words "Windows Phone" specifically, a title
Microsoft has stopped using. They call the Windows 10 OS for phones just
"Windows 10," or in some cases "Windows 10 Mobile."

The article acknowledges that as well. The headline could have been "Windows
Phone is dead; Long live Windows 10 Mobile."

But of course the obvious truth of the matter is that Windows 10 is struggling
on phones as well. It seemed to be a half-baked weakly-tested operating system
when the 950 arrived, and seems to be evolving and fixing problems quite
slowly since.

As a 950 user and a fan of the operating system in general, I hope the Surface
Phone (or whatever it ends up being—the full Windows 10 computer I can fit in
my pocket) ends up being quite good. More importantly, I hope the OS team
steps up their game and invests seriously in quality control. Today, the 950
is a decent device, but it's not something that is going to ever win converts
to the platform outside of the rare person who thinks Continuum is the coolest
thing in town.

~~~
UnoriginalGuy
EVERYONE calls the platform "Windows Phone" even people who work at Microsoft.

Your correction is like saying "don't call it iOS, call it iOS 9.3.1!!!" or
"It isn't Android anymore, it is Lollipop!"

Sure, the latest incarnation is Windows 10 mobile, but realistically it is
going to be called Windows Phone as an ecosystem because versions come and go,
a platform name is forever.

Microsoft MIGHT be able to convince people to call it "Windows Mobile"
(instead of "Windows Phone") but they have a lot of marketing to do.

~~~
nirvdrum
To be fair, everyone had to stop calling it "iPhone OS" when Apple rebranded
it as "iOS."

~~~
wvenable
To be fair, iOS rolls off the tongue a lot better than whatever multi-word
monstrosity Microsoft is calling their products this week.

------
MiddleEndian
Windows Phone user here, since 2011.

I recently lost my Windows 8.1 phone battery, and getting a Windows 10 phone
wasn't much more than ordering a battery and having it shipped to the US
within the week, plus I needed a phone to communicate.

It's awful. Swipe text behavior is worse: doesn't automatically add spaces it
used to (especially near other text), no longer works at all in the browser's
URL bar, aggressively gives up on words even after displaying them, and
deletes things one character at a time even though the errors with swipe
typing are never spelling but instead the wrong word being selected. There are
other issues (live tiles are unnecessarily animated without giving information
in return, for instance), but I think the way they destroyed typing is the
worst impediment.

Windows Phone 8 already made the camera worse by removing the ability to
quickly focus and take a photo, but at least swipe text was one improvement
over Windows Phone 7's tapping only text behavior.

I'm going to just order the battery and return this phone. Not sure what they
were thinking. Maybe they want it to be more like Android, but that's not the
point of having a different platform. I'll try to keep WP8 running
indefinitely I suppose.

Edit: Swipe text is not as bad in text messaging, but that means there are at
least three typing mechanisms (no swipe, bad swipe, good swipe). Very
disorienting.

~~~
wambotron
I recently moved from Windows Phone to Android because of the Windows 10
Mobile OS. It was pushed to my phone for some reason and it completely broke
wifi calling. Aside from that, the OS itself is now clunky and I think even
calling it "half-baked" is being extremely generous.

It's unfortunate, because I thought WP8 was awesome. Definitely my favorite
experience of any mobile OS.

------
BinaryIdiot
This makes me sad. I've played with Windows Phone a few times and it felt
buttery smooth (even my Nexus 6P it still pauses occasionally; granted the
pausing on Android gets less and less with each version but I'm still a tiny
bit disappointed it still pauses unlike my past iPhones and Windows phone).
Their idea for a unified OS across devices is an awesome goal as well. It's
really cool to see the latest Windows Phones and watch them plug into a
keyboard, mouse and monitor and bam you have the FULL version of Microsoft
Office apps and a Windows 10 like desktop.

But in today's market you have to have the apps to succeed. They never really
got the apps. It's really disappointing in my opinion.

~~~
rchaud
>It's really cool to see the latest Windows Phones and watch them plug into a
keyboard, mouse and monitor and bam you have the FULL version of Microsoft
Office apps and a Windows 10 like desktop.

Cool maybe, but what would be the use case for this? If people think they'll
need full Office on the go, chances are they'll take a laptop or Surface-like
device with them. Right now they will need their Windows phone as well as a MS
display dock, keyboard and mouse, and it will still all be useless unless they
are able to find a monitor to plug into. Every workplace or airport lounge
I've been to with a PC monitor has VGA/HDMI cables locked in place, and
unremovable without a key or without cutting plastic ties.

~~~
BinaryIdiot
> Cool maybe, but what would be the use case for this?

Less stuff to carry around. Since it's brand new there isn't a lot of utility
there just yet. Honestly, even though Windows Phone may be dead, I really
think this is the future of computing. I mean why bother having a desktop or
laptop if you can use your personal device, plug it into different things and
get the full experience as if you had a laptop or desktop?

You could go to an airport, plug your phone in and use it like a desktop at
one of their tables. Get on the plane and plug it into a screen.

Ultimately I could even see the phone part disappearing and it's a small
object you keep on your person that can then connect to various types of
devices maybe even wirelessly. This is a great use-case for, in 80 years or
however long it takes, when we have computing devices embedded into our
bodies. Then we simply touch a screen and we can visualize the data we're
carrying.

I stay awake a night thinking about how cool this could be :) (seriously, I
even started sketching how to create this type of universality myself but it's
such an undertaking and difficult to succeed that I never actually wrote code
for this idea but it's certainly one of my favorites)

~~~
st3v3r
"Less stuff to carry around."

You're still going to have to carry around a keyboard, mouse, cables, and
probably a screen. It's going to be far, far easier to do that with a
laptop/surface, or even a tablet, than with their setup.

"I mean why bother having a desktop or laptop if you can use your personal
device, plug it into different things and get the full experience as if you
had a laptop or desktop?"

A desktop is going to have more power, a laptop is going to have a form factor
that's much more convenient to carry around, and more battery.

~~~
BinaryIdiot
> You're still going to have to carry around a keyboard, mouse, cables, and
> probably a screen. It's going to be far, far easier to do that with a
> laptop/surface, or even a tablet, than with their setup.

Um, what? Why would you carry around all that stuff? I clearly described
scenarios in which places would already have that setup for you. You just dock
and go. Just like today you don't carry a router around with you or anything
else.

> A desktop is going to have more power, a laptop is going to have a form
> factor that's much more convenient to carry around, and more battery.

"More power" doesn't mean anything without context. If you're just writing
papers, code, even playing some types of games you likely have plenty of power
for this already in your phone. If you want to play FarCry then obviously yes
you're not going to do that from a phone.

A phone is more convenient to carry around than a laptop. If someone can
supply you a laptop that your phone simply docks with you wouldn't need to
carry it around which is precisely my point: the phone (or possibly another,
smaller device) could be your personal computing platform and everything else
around you simply visualizes the data contained within.

~~~
Someone
I don't think it is a given there really is a market for such devices

Reason? From the situation you describe, it is just a small step to "store
everything in the cloud; authenticate with your phone" (most locations with a
keyboard, mouse, and monitor that people who can afford a fast phone will
visit will have fast internet connections, and will easily have the 10W power
budget needed to beat your phone, performance-wise)

You would have to trust the hardware you use, but you have to, anyways, the
moment you plug a modern keyboard or monitor into your phone.

Yes, you would be ensured that the software you use on your phone is
compatible with the software you use on your 'desktop' because it is the same
software, but you also run the risk that it is suboptimal for either (the
fonts may be too big for power desktop use, or you might need a pen for
manipulating some not-too-often-used controls), and in the 'use phone to
authenticate' scenario, you run less risk of running your phone's battery dry.

~~~
BinaryIdiot
The problem with the cloud approach is you're using and storing data and
credentials (even temporary) onto an unknown device. I don't think that'll
ever become the norm. Using a phone to handle all this means you only need
dumb hardware to hook into (which, again, could be accessed wirelessly) so
even if the hardware is compromised there are still security controls in your
device to limit the damage.

Ultimately I think the final outcome, which may take many decades to get here,
is a device embedded inside of people that give them access to everything they
need and if they need another way to interact with the information they'll use
some sort of dumb terminal (because if everything is embedded in you and can
be accessed easily via some wireless protocol, why would you go through the
hassle of a separate authentication step where all your data could be
exposed).

Whether there is a market for this today or not I don't really know. I'd love
to find out but this is the type of thing that would require quite a bit of
start-up capital and an MVP might be difficult to do.

------
roldie
I recently spend a few days on my old Nokia Lumia 920 because I had busted my
Android phone and was waiting for a new one in the mail.

The OS (WP8) itself was actually quite delightful. I really enjoyed using it
for those few days. The home screen is different, fun, and incredibly useful.
It was buttery-smooth too. The built-in apps - messaging, people hub, cortana,
camera (maybe more Nokia than Microsoft), were all great and seemed to have
that extra bit of polish that many of my favorite Android apps lack.

However, not all built-in apps were great (no landscape mode for music) and
lack of third party apps, or at least good third party apps reminded me why I
left it for Android in the first place.

I have a Sony Xperia Z5 now, if anyone's interested. It's the closest thing
IMO to a Nokia Android phone, which is what I really want.

Edit: fixed a word

~~~
mc32
The OS is pretty nice. Runs well even on cheap hardware, and if you wanted a
great camera phone the flagship had that.

The problem was and is third party apps. The HW and OS were well wedded, but
they were barren.

~~~
theklub
I had the same experience. I thought the OS was great, but apps were sparse.
It seems like a great option for someone who doesn't use apps much or at all.

~~~
endemic
I use my smartphone for some core functionality (maps, email, browser,
messaging, e-books), but most of that is built in to the OS. I can't imagine
that I'm too much of an outlier in my usage patterns. Maybe I should have
tried a Windows phone.

~~~
theklub
I'm the same way, the only app I use is a poker app. I'd probably go back to a
windows phone especially if it saved me money.

------
Tomte
I just switched back to Android, as well. I've loved Windows Phone (apart from
a few glitches), its fresh design, sensible use of screen estate and its
simple, yet effective home screen.

But it never got great hardware (the 640XL was the best of the crop,
considering price), the app situation was disappointing, though acceptable,
and Microsoft never seemed to fully commit to and push it (just like Microsoft
Band).

~~~
scholia
Hm, I just bought a Band 2 and I think it's really good. (I'm using it with an
Android phone.)

~~~
tdkl
You might want to know that the HR readings are crap. [1]

[1] [http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2016/01/microsoft-band-
review.htm...](http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2016/01/microsoft-band-review.html)

~~~
scholia
Thanks for the link: that's a very thorough review. It says:

 _To begin, from a 24×7 standpoint, the HR values presented are generally
accurate when you open the page to view them from within the band. When it
does this, it notes that the HR is ‘locked’. I see no issues when standing
/sitting/casual walking/etc in this area, it matches other measurement devices
here when viewing it at a moment in time._ _However, when looking at HR data
over the course of the day, it’s largely useless (just like the Vivosmart HR),
due to the low update rate._

It's got an amazing number of features, and as a casual user, that's not one
that I was particularly interested in. The accepted wisdom seems to be that if
you really want HR readings for fitness training, you want a chest strap....

------
frik
A friend got a WinPhone 8, he said it was okay. Then he upgraded it to Win10
and totally hated it. It felt really slow and buggy. For example it completely
messed up the contacts list, it showed random profile pictures instead of the
correct one from ActiveDirectory/Exchange in his business environment.
Needless to say that company stopped the WinPhone experiments and stayed with
iOS and Android devices.

Another friend really liked WinPhone 6.5 back then. And I have nice memories
with WinMobile 2004 too. But that was the WinCE branch.

~~~
Tactic
To be fair windows phone 10 is not released yet. Their developer preview was a
mess for a good long time.

~~~
MiddleEndian
You can get Lumia phones with WP10 on them, unfortunately.

------
KaterKarlo_02
They're much too slow. It's understandable that it takes time to get the first
version (WP 7) out of the gates, but from then on ... much too slow. There's
no excuse. They should've replaced the project lead a couple of years ago.

Then, they have massive issues with their store. This is not acceptable as
it's a piece of diligent work which a company like Microsoft just have to get
done.

However, it's not over yet. I'm at a 600'000 employees cooperation and they
strive to Windows Phone and Win 10 tablets.

------
cordite
I used Windows Phone for a few years but I recently moved off. Buggy ports, no
google apps, or groups refusing to make apps for certain hardware like the
Pebble Time put me on the fence. What tipped the balance for me may have not
been fully related, but Windows 10's approach to privacy blew my trust for the
future.

The Lumias did have a superior camera to the other phones and my current
phone. That is one thing I miss.

------
agumonkey
Most Windows Phone users say it's great, but it lacks some apps. Is this the
main problem ? lack of app-glitter ? It would be sad that an actually fast,
light and usable platform is pushed aside for too absurd reasons.

~~~
wvenable
One could make an even faster, lighter, and more usable platform if it didn't
have to support apps at all. Heck, the very first iPhone was such a platform.
But really the fundamental purpose of a smartphone is to run applications.
It's also the fundamental purpose of most operating systems, including
especially Windows.

The part of Microsoft that runs the desktop side of things knows that people
use their OS to run apps. That is it's primary purpose and they do everything
they can to move forward while ensuring as many apps run as possible.

With Windows Phone/Mobile/Whatever they've done everything possible to make
app existence and development as low priority as possible. And as such, their
platform is mostly empty.

Apps are fundamental to the smartphone experience -- the lack of them is not
an absurd reason to avoid the platform. Ironically Microsoft makes some great
smartphone applications but even the best mobile versions of those are on
other platforms.

~~~
agumonkey
I disagree that apps are so fundamental. I installed a bunch on my Android,
and none of them are that crucial or amazing. They're also not well
integrated. I can't push things as agenda item except between google stuff.
copy paste uneven, sluggish, far away. Windows Phone must be just opened
enough to avoid losing the weird app that surprises everybody and some major
players. There's room for a more immersive useful live UX, a thing that Apps
can't give.

ps: you're right about the platform thing, it's the same story, Windows was,
other were before. Put yourself between two needs and profit.

~~~
wvenable
I'm surprised I have to make the argument to someone on Hacker news about the
fundamentalness of software, applications, and choice. You have a limited view
of the smartphone world.

Every one has different and unique needs. I sell software to personal trainers
who run their entire business on the phones. Perhaps your needs are small are
boring and that's fine. But most people have more needs and wants than what
just comes built in.

I don't have many apps on my phone but the ones I end up using are surprising.
My transit app ensures I don't miss my bus to work in the morning (vital). My
health insurances phone app is much better than their website. I have a Pebble
smartwatch so installed software actually makes that possible. Not to mention
time wasters like games, reddit, etc. So many applications are available for
every possible need it's fantastic.

Too many other people actually use their tiny pocket computers to the fullest
-- they are the majority. Microsoft has not made en ecosystem that appeals to
this majority.

~~~
agumonkey
Actually that is true that I'm on the frugal side of app needs, or maybe jaded
because they don't tickle my brain to right way. Also true that these weird
apps manage to be better than other medium (HP eprint, is a 400% improvement
over the desktop thing).

But I tried many and most of them are shallow, slow, and badly integrated. My
point about 'non openness' was more about more cohesion by coming from one
place. Kinda like languages designed by committee vs a BDFL.

~~~
wvenable
If you on Windows phone then yeah, most of them are probably shallow, slow,
and badly integrated. iOS might not be a great platform on its own but its got
some of highest quality applications of any platform. As for badly integrated
-- they're all more integrated than web sites.

Given there are literally millions of applications I'm pretty sure you've only
tried literally 0.01% of all of them. Not exactly the best way to judge an
entire platform.

------
toast0
The recent dip may be attributable to uncertainty over the release of windows
phone 10, and also Microsoft has tended to release new phones that tend to be
worse than existing phones. I delayed an upgrade waiting for a good cheap
device with wp10 (Lumia 550 is not it), but got a 640 (with 8.1) when my phone
had an accident.

WP 10 on low end phones is very laggy and horrible, which is also not good.

------
adrianlmm
I just got the cheap Lumia 532 to replace my Android phone, it is so smooth
and fast, I wonder why is not a hit, is miles better then Android and iOS.

~~~
blubb-fish
My gf's first smartphone was a Lumia and it was terrible ... especially in
comparison to my Android-power-user-setup. No way .. the UX of WP is utterly
terrible - utterly. She's so happy now with an Android.

~~~
adrianlmm
Me in the other hand, got tired of Android slowness, crashes, lack of updates
and memory leaks, oh, and not forget the secuity flaws.

------
liquidchicken
Did MS ever even run an advertising campaign for Windows Phone? I don't recall
ever seeing commercials or web ads explicitly for Phone. There were some that
referenced it in the vein of "Here's a thing, and another thing, oh... and
also this phone thing.", but I don't recall seeing anything else.

~~~
BinaryIdiot
I think the majority of their advertising was placement ads. There are many,
many TV shows that featured the characters using Windows Phones (Scandal did
for the longest time, might still do).

~~~
ocdtrekkie
Shows like Hawaii Five-0 and NCIS:LA have HUGE Microsoft product placement.
Arrow now does as well. They use Surfaces, Windows Phones, etc.

One of the more painful product placement attempts was trying to get actors to
use the expression "Bing it", as if that was ever going to catch on. (I use
Bing, it's not bad, but seriously, I'm never going to say that.)

~~~
bdcravens
I know Scandal prominently featured Windows phones.

------
j_s
Microsoft's phone strategy has always seemed a bit lacking. Whatever happened
to Windows Mobile? I look at some of the old blogs on MSDN and wonder what
happened to people.

The Windows Phone right now is a great way to buy a high-quality camera with
WiFi... a super-iPod for a few bucks (amazing how much difference a microSD
card slot makes!). For example, the Nokia Lumia 521 with a 5MP flashless
camera on sale for $46:
[http://amzn.com/B00COYOAYW](http://amzn.com/B00COYOAYW) (this one isn't a
good camera, just extra cheap). Even the 8MP Lumia 925 regularly sells for
$200!

------
bitL
Not surprising. I bought a cheap 5" Lumia as a navigation device as at that
time it was the only platform with world-wide offline HERE maps. Guess what?
At some point they killed the possibility to store maps on an SD card,
rendering the phone into an almost useless brick. Many complaints were ignored
on the forums as plenty of users stated they bought their phone only for
maps... WP 8.1 was the first release that allowed transparent tiles that
actually looked pretty good comparing to ugly single color tiles they had
before, now they are returning back to translucent ugliness as well...

------
bluejekyll
There was a time when those numbers were impressive.

~~~
kuanlnaie
haha

------
draw_down
Super ironic to see Windows Phone fans and well-wishers say that the app
situation shouldn't be a deal-breaker for the OS. That was the whole reason
people stuck to desktop Windows for so long 10 or more years ago. It was
always "Sure the Mac is nicer/better, but it doesn't have the apps."

------
elmar
I have experience with android, iOs and Windows phone, and I find that windows
phone work very well as a phone and are unbeatable on construction for the
price.

The only problem I see is the low quantity of applications, like for example
the lack of Snapchat.

------
dao-
_Microsoft only sold 4.5 million Lumia devices in the recent quarter, compared
to 10.5 million at the same time last year. That 's a massive 57 percent drop.
Even a 57 percent increase wouldn't be enough to save Windows Phone right
now._

Of course not. It would need a 133% increase to get back to the old quarter's
numbers. :>

~~~
Strom
I think the author meant that even if instead of a 57% drop it would have been
a 57% increase.

~~~
dao-
Hmm, he wrote neither "instead" nor "wouldn't have been", so I'm having a hard
time reading that sentence this way. I'm not a native speaker, though.

~~~
Strom
His wording could be clearer, but going by the principle of charity [1],
having a slight grammar issue is more plausible than failing basic high school
math. I could be wrong of course, weirder things have happened.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity)

------
sidmkp96
So?

------
gelasio
Good. One less locked-down, anti-competitive player to deal with.

I'm sticking with Android for now since it offends me the least and I'll
never, ever, ever use iOS (ever) since Apple is such an asshole to their
customers and developers that I hate them with a passion. As a matter of fact,
I hope Apple spends and loses all of their money on their car project.
(Fingers crossed!)

Give me a phone where I have complete control please and stop trying to
"protect" me. Until that time comes, I'll continue using only the most basic
features of my so-called "smart" phone.

~~~
endemic
Funny story: I tried to install Microsoft's Exchange client for Android, and
before it let me connect my account, it warned me that my organization would
take control of my phone's security policy. The iOS version doesn't do that.

~~~
wvenable
On iOS typically your organization does take control of your phone's security
policy to connect to Exchange. I would personally prefer not to have 6 number
passcode.

~~~
st3v3r
The 6 number passcode is a new feature of iOS 9, regardless of whether you
connect it to an organization or not.

------
wslh
This is Microsoft, they can wait. The first IEs were born dead and they were
mediocre products.

~~~
wvenable
Microsoft seems to have no patience anymore. Normally I would agree with you
-- and honestly the slow and steady approach is the only way they'd ever make
an impact -- but Microsoft just keeps resetting this platform over and over.

~~~
pmilot
This. I don't know what happened (that trend was already well underway before
Ballmer stepped down) but lately they've been acting like kids suffering from
ADHD.

Developers want stability. They had a good thing going with .NET which they
could have simply used as the platform for making Windows Mobile apps as soon
as the iPhone took off.

Instead they chose to introduce a whole new platform (Windows Phone 7), then
kill it off to make way for Windows RT (Windows Phone 8), then kill it off for
Universal Apps (Windows 10 Mobile). You can't expect to build a good ecosystem
when you establish a pattern like that.

