
Billionaires and big ag are joining venture investors to fund lab-grown meat - sethbannon
https://techcrunch.com/2017/08/23/billionaires-and-big-ag-are-joining-venture-investors-to-fund-lab-grown-meat/
======
sethbannon
For those that are curious, as an early investor and advocate for clean meat,
I wrote about my experience eating Memphis Meats' products and why their
solution is so much better than convention meat production:
[https://medium.com/@sethbannon/i-just-ate-meat-for-the-
first...](https://medium.com/@sethbannon/i-just-ate-meat-for-the-first-time-
in-20-years-214d0f875568)

~~~
mmisu
I find it disingenous to call meat grown in a lab _clean meat_. Would you call
Margarine _clean butter_ ?

~~~
emmp
Why not? As long as its vegan margarine. Its clean of at least a subset of
ethical concerns that many foods are not. Clean is a very overloaded word
though so I certainly see where you're coming from, but it works just fine for
me.

~~~
maxerickson
It would probably be illegal to market a product that wasn't butter as "Clean
Butter", because there are rules about labeling things as butter.

So I won't be surprised if the animal products industry lobbies for rules
about what can be called meat (or if such rules already exist).

Of course such labeling concerns don't apply to an internet discussion, but
they do indicate that people care about what's in a name.

~~~
yellowapple
Usually, though, lab-grown meat is actually meat. It's possible that it'd have
to be labeled "synthetic" or "lab-grown" (similar to how synthetic diamonds
are named), but claiming that meat is not meat is nonsensical.

~~~
maxerickson
Well what's the definition of meat?

A typical simple one is "animal flesh". Cells grown in a vat aren't flesh,
they are a tissue culture.

Note that I'm not particularly animated by the issue, I just don't agree that
it is as simple as "claiming that meat is not meat".

~~~
FeepingCreature
This seems like a particular definition of "flesh" that's not particularly
germane to meatness. Lab meat is made of the exact same animal cells that
regular meat is, the tissue just happens to never have inhabited an animal.
When we eat meat, we don't value the fact that the cells we're eating were
once part of an animal, we mostly value the taste.

It seems to me that this isn't a necessarily property of meat but a contingent
one caused by the fact that meat used to only be possible to produce from
animal flesh.

~~~
coldtea
> _When we eat meat, we don 't value the fact that the cells we're eating were
> once part of an animal, we mostly value the taste_

You'd be surprised. We even have different names and preferences for different
age stages of the animal, different varieties of the animal (regional etc),
etc.

~~~
jonathanpoulter
Those distinctions exist because of the perceived impact on the tastes and
textures of meat. Not because of anything such as ethical preferences to
old/young animals.

------
edison85
This, crispr, and self driving cars are my favorite up and coming innovations
that just seem mind boggling and that will make a profound impact in our
lives. I think it is realistic to see widespread use of all 3 in the next
decade.

The social media, apps, cloud, big data, and phone innovations have been neat
but I'm looking forward to disruptions in non tech arenas. Space, electric and
hydrogen fuel cell cars, so many fascinating things up and coming.

~~~
aswanson
It's telling that space, electricity generation, crispr, self-driving cars,
and this are thought of as 'non tech', but messaging apps and phones are.

~~~
colordrops
It seems that "tech" has come to be a colloquialism for "digital".

~~~
CamelCaseName
It is not that surprising given that the most apparent technological advance
in our lifetime has been the internet.

I would be curious to see what "technology" was a colloquialism for different
periods in time. My suspicion is that it would refer to the most impactful and
visible innovations of that time.

~~~
jhbadger
Well, the word comes from the ancient Greek "τέχνη" (techne) which meant
"craft" \-- it basically meant creating things in the real world rather than
"ἐπιστήμη" (episteme) which meant abstract knowledge, which is what
philosophers were after.

~~~
_glass
But the epistomology of a word does not determine its meaning. Otherwise the
art versus craft debate would be difficult to apply with its original
meanings.

------
torpilla
That they and their families will never eat.

This is just like when the British Parliament approved GMOs in the UK and on
the same day officially forbid GMO foods from being served in the Parliament
restaurant.

BTW I know the guy who was the head of the team who invented the GMO
technology. He and his family and relatives only eat the cleanest, best
quality ORGANIC food they can find.

~~~
sweep4r
Organic food? As opposed to what? Aluminium food?

~~~
fenwick67
I once explained to a bunch of 5th graders how landfills emit organic
compounds into the air. When I asked them if they knew what Organic meant they
said "it means it's healthy".

------
jseliger
Beyond Meat gets name-checked in the article, but I want to emphasize that
their burgers are pretty good: [https://jakeseliger.com/2017/08/23/beyond-
meat-burgers-are-p...](https://jakeseliger.com/2017/08/23/beyond-meat-burgers-
are-pretty-good/) and in my view underappreciated right now. If you've not
tried them yet, you ought to.

~~~
Danihan
I love how highly, highly processed foods are suddenly A-OK to many people
here once it's a fake meat product. Whatever happened to the concept of, "Eat
real food?"

Full Ingredient List:

>Water, Textured Wheat Protein, Coconut Oil, Potato Protein, Natural Flavors,
2% or less of: Leghemoglobin (soy), Yeast Extract, Salt, Soy Protein Isolate,
Konjac Gum, Xanthan Gum, Thiamin (Vitamin B1), Zinc, Niacin, Vitamin B6,
Riboflavin (Vitamin B2), Vitamin B12.

I shouldn't even have to post about "Textured Wheat Protein" but it's
essentially another denatured protein, one that is completely doused in
glyphosate right before harvest. That's the main ingredient of these
"burgers."

Check out the chart on page two...

[http://people.csail.mit.edu/seneff/ITX_2013_06_04_Seneff.pdf](http://people.csail.mit.edu/seneff/ITX_2013_06_04_Seneff.pdf)

These "vegan" foods are nowhere near healthy.

Then there's Soy Protein Isolate:

>But high-temperature processing has the unfortunate side effect of so
denaturing the other proteins in soy that they are rendered largely
ineffective.23 That's why animals on soy feed need lysine supplements for
normal growth.

>Nitrites, which are potent carcinogens, are formed during spray-drying, and a
toxin called lysinoalanine is formed during alkaline processing.24 Numerous
artificial flavorings, particularly MSG, are added to soy protein isolate and
textured vegetable protein products to mask their strong "beany" taste and to
impart the flavor of meat.25

>In feeding experiments, the use of SPI increased requirements for vitamins E,
K, D, and B12 and created deficiency symptoms of calcium, magnesium,
manganese, molybdenum, copper, iron, and zinc.26 Phytic acid remaining in
these soy products greatly inhibits zinc and iron absorption; test animals fed
SPI develop enlarged organs, particularly the pancreas and thyroid gland, and
increased deposition of fatty acids in the liver.27

[http://www.mercola.com/article/soy/avoid_soy.htm](http://www.mercola.com/article/soy/avoid_soy.htm)

~~~
ggreer
If fake meats had come first and animal meats were just now coming to market,
people would make similar arguments about health effects... and they'd be
warranted. With animal meat, one has to worry about salmonella, e. coli,
staph, and other pathogens. These food-borne pathogens kill about 5,000
Americans a year and make millions sick.[1] Also, cooking meat creates
carcinogens.[2]

If fake meats were as dangerous as the real thing, they'd be illegal to sell.
Concerns about the safety of these new foods are pure status-quo bias.

1\.
[http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/meat/safe/food...](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/meat/safe/foodborne.html)

2\. [https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-
prevention/risk/d...](https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-
prevention/risk/diet/cooked-meats-fact-sheet)

~~~
dasil003
I think it's foolish to assume that some novel and highly processed food item
is going to be safer than something which we've been eating for thousands of
generations. Basing the conclusion of safety based on a piecemeal analysis of
the components hand-waves away the entire complexity of digestion and
metabolization.

~~~
ggreer
> I think it's foolish to assume that some novel and highly processed food
> item is going to be safer than something which we've been eating for
> thousands of generations.

It's not that processed foods are particularly safe, but that meat is unsafe
in a way we're accustomed to. Again: every year, meat-borne pathogens kill
5,000 Americans and cause illnesses in 1% of the population. Fake meats simply
don't cause those rates of illness or death. If they did, the FDA would not
allow them to be sold.

~~~
ericd
And coal plants kill far more people than nuclear ones. It's just not as
obvious that they're the cause to those who are sick.

Who is to say that eating an equivalent amount of this fake meat product
wouldn't cause a far greater number of deaths and reduction in quality
adjusted years? It will be much harder to tell, because the problems aren't as
obvious/acute, and there are always a huge number of confounding variables
when it comes to nutrition.

Unless the problems it causes are acute, the FDA isn't going to have a very
good way of comparing the safety of these with normal meat.

~~~
FeepingCreature
We don't know what properties this meat will have; we do know what causes
regular meat to be harmful, and fake meat does not share several of those
particular factors.

------
kjksf
As a counter point, the CEO of Impossible Burgers thinks that meat grown from
cells is "stupidest idea ever"
([http://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/inventions/arti...](http://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/inventions/artificial-
meat-wars-impossible-foods-ceo-calls-meat-grown-from-cells-stupidest-idea-
ever/news-story/75d5ab1f2ac695d0080a8f460f4ce280)).

And I kind of don't see how Memphis Meat can possibly compete with Impossible
Burger (or other companies that can produce meat-like products from vegetables
+ industrial processing).

Today Memphis Meat costs "several thousand" per pound and generates literal
pounds of meat. It's a pre-alpha prototype.

Impossible Burger's ground beef costs "comparable to organic beef" and are
scaling production to a million pounds of meat per month. They've shipped and
are increasing velocity.

~~~
ryanwaggoner
As a counter-counter-point, I recently tried the Impossible burger, and while
it's amazing, it's not remotely close to real meat. And that's in ground-beef-
covered-with-cheese-and-sauce-and-toppings form. Impossible vs a great steak
or some grilled salmon? No way.

~~~
nemothekid
As another anecdote - I agree. I recently tried it as well, and almost gagged
at the taste. Not because it was disgusting (I finished it), but because I was
so taken aback at the taste (kind of similar to when someone puts water in
your Sprite can).

It's decent, but its nothing like real meat.

------
grizzles
Lab grown meat is the industry I'd pick if I had to pick where the next rags
to world's richest person will come from. Can it be scaled & beat conventional
slaughter economically? I'm betting that it can. And it will disrupt a 100B+
annual industry.

~~~
erikpukinskis
> Can it be scaled & beat conventional slaughter economically? I'm betting
> that it can.

I'm really skeptical of this. Feels like a "multiple PhDs later..." kind of
problem. Is there are a reason why you think the research won't hit any
roadblocks? And even if it succeeds, there could be insurmountable marketing
issues.

In the meantime, it's bad for vegetarianism. Meat eaters saying "why bother
changing my diet, when lab grown meat will be here soon?"

We need to eat more plants. We need to travel fewer miles. We need to dump
less potable water into the sea. We need to throw away less packaging and
stuff. We can't always wait for the perfect 1:1 replacement eco-technology. We
also need to figure out how to change our culture.

People all over the world learned how to survive just fine without without
eating a half pound of flesh per day. Why are we clinging to these practices?

~~~
grizzles
Lab grown meat seems more plausible to me than trying to talk people into
become vegetarians. But if you do figure out how to change cultures you could
sell that recipe for big money to lots of folks (eg. the U.S. military)

~~~
erikpukinskis
Agreed. But selling people great vegetarian food seems easier than both of
those things.

------
issa
I think this is great. The current way food is produced in America (and other
places) is not sustainable for either environmental or moral reasons. Take
your pick.

------
grondilu
It's great but if it really works, isn't there a concern about the existence
of our beloved domestic animals?

All domestic cattle nowadays descends from the Auroch, which is extinct. The
Auroch disappeared because we did not need it as it was. It was hunted down as
tend to be all large animals that can not be domesticated.

If we don't need cows, pigs, sheep and whatnot, isn't there a risk they will
fade away?

When we invented cars, the domestic horse kept existing because it still has
recreational use. Is there a recreational use for cows?

~~~
vbuwivbiu
they'll be fine. they'll simply continue to evolve without us.

~~~
grondilu
If we leave them enough habitat. But why would we if we don't need them?

~~~
lugg
I believe that may have been a subtle natural selection joke.

~~~
vbuwivbiu
it was sincere - they will be fine without us. Sure, long term some of them
may go extinct - who knows? but that's evolution. As for habitat, yes that's a
problem for them and for non-domesticated creatures, and for us (we need wild
spaces too).

------
mmisu
Highly processed food made in a lab has a big chance to have hidden side
effects. I would not eat this until it is tested in the wild for a few years.

~~~
dsego
I think it's safer, probably harder to get mad cow disease or salmonella,
don't you think? Also, today we get it from animals pumped full of
antibiotics, hormones living in their own excrement.

~~~
mmisu
I guess it is a question of personal choice. I won't eat fake meat the same
way as I don't eat highly processed food unless I'm forced to eat it.

~~~
KitDuncan
Seems like a very close minded thing to do. Unless of course you're not eating
meat at all. In which case I understand.

~~~
mmisu
First if I eat meat or not is none of your business. I think it is judgemental
to qualify a person that you potentially don't agree with as close minded. A
close minded person is a person that can't accept that other people can have a
different opinion.

An open society is a society that accepts diversity and doesn't try to shame
people into conforming to a single way of thinking.

------
bananicorn
I do wonder though if this lab-grow meat will be allowed to be called meat,
since there was a strange ruling about Vegan dairy products[0].

It seems that this is less likely to receive such a treatment, since it's much
closer to the actual thing in terms of composition, but beyond Meat might be
given a harder time there, since their product is plant-based...

[0] [https://www.just-food.com/news/eu-court-of-justice-rules-
aga...](https://www.just-food.com/news/eu-court-of-justice-rules-against-
dairy-names-for-vegan-products_id136963.aspx)

------
woodandsteel
A lot of investors are interested in Memphis Meat. From what I understand,
people have been trying to grow meat in laboratories for decades. Does MM have
some special technology?

------
Pxtl
Honestly, fakemeat products have become so good that I'm not longer
interested. Their biggest failing is cost, and lab products aren't cheaper.

------
shadykiller
I still believe that feeding people would be much more efficient and healthier
if we accept natural alternatives to meat like insects.

------
jamesmattis
Will the plant protein meat ever trump the animal meat market? I believe that
it will but it would take more than 10 years from now.

India could become a huge market for the plant protein meat.

Beyondmeat is one great example.

------
coldtea
Which reminds me:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLHRjaUBb3o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLHRjaUBb3o)

------
Raz2
I am so sad that it won't be legal or at least profitable in Europe. People
look for salt without GMO...

~~~
roel_v
Actually, the first (IIRC) lab-grown burger was served 4 years ago in
Maastricht, The Netherlands, by a company called Mosa Meat, back then already
backed by Gates. A quick google finds
[https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/08/bill-gates-and-
richa...](https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/08/bill-gates-and-richard-
branson-are-investing-in-a-mysterious-new-kind-of-meat) on that investment,
but I'm sure there's more. I think they got the price down a few hundreds per
burger by now, still a way to go obviously, but there are many in-vitro
research groups in Europe.

------
josephmerz
About bloody time. Excuse the pun

------
sunshiney
While I am a meat/fish-eater, I have not eaten store- purchased meat in
decades and I will never eat lab-produced food. What a great way for
innovative evil people to kill millions. Be careful what you wish for...very
careful

------
surrey-fringe
Animal products are bad for you.

