
Saying Goodbye to Firebug - kungfudoi
https://hacks.mozilla.org/2017/10/saying-goodbye-to-firebug/
======
irrational
Firebug was the greatest thing to happen to web development. Honestly I still
prefer it to the native dev tools. I especially love how most things go to the
console so I don't have to jump all over the place to find the information I'm
looking for. I absolutely abhor the network panel in Chrome. It's like they're
purposefully trying to make it difficult.

~~~
eterm
I noticed in recent firefox-dev you can now expand XHR requests directly in
the console which then pops up a mini network panel.

I don't know how long it's been there, I noticed it today but I might have
simply had XHR logging off previously.

~~~
sametmax
It's been here for a long time, but by default the console has several filters
disabling some output, including XHR. So most people don't know about it.

------
drderidder
Firebug didn't just raise the bar for web debugging, it pretty much raised the
bar for all debugging tools. It leaves a great legacy with the built-in dev
tools. Great project.

~~~
jgrahamc
Whoa. That's pretty hyperbolic. Firebug is definitely cool but things like
SoftICE or the Visual Studio debugger were amazing.

~~~
giancarlostoro
Visual Studio did front-end web debugging back then?

~~~
jgrahamc
The parent claimed the following: "Firebug didn't just raise the bar for web
debugging, it pretty much raised the bar for all debugging tools." I dispute
the idea that Firebug raised the bar for non-web debugging tools.

~~~
giancarlostoro
Guess I missed the latter claim.

------
Perceptes
Does anyone know the history of the `console` object? The first time I ever
saw it and used it was with Firebug, but it occurs to me that I don't know if
Firebug invented it. Did it just decide to inject this name into the global
namespace? And having it become a common API across multiple JS environments
was due to its popularity in Firebug? Or was it somehow already in JS and I
just wasn't aware of it up until that point?

~~~
llimllib
My recollection is that you are correct; it originated with Firebug and
sprouted in other browsers after that, but I would love some history around it
too.

Here's console.js in 2007:
[https://github.com/firebug/firebug/blob/85f35d8e871783adcf9c...](https://github.com/firebug/firebug/blob/85f35d8e871783adcf9cc07f6fc584c9da6ec7d7/content/firebug/console.js)

------
bhauer
I miss Firebug for one simple reason: It detached from the browser window as a
singular window that provided developer functions to all of your browser tabs.
In modern Firefox and Chrome, each tab has its own distinct developer tools
panel that can be detached as a separate window for the operating system's
window manager to handle.

Firebug's behavior was somewhat analogous to "MDI" in legacy GUI applications,
in that a single window handled multiple views. The view switched with your
browser's active tab.

The funny bit is that the stack of developer tool windows we end up with today
is reminiscent of the stack of _browser windows_ we had prior to the advent of
tabbed browsing.

The relevant Bugzilla bug:

[https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1219917](https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1219917)

~~~
ino
I hate juggling dev tools, opening, resizing, detaching them one by one, for
each tab. It fucking sucks.

------
emehrkay
Things instantly became real when firebug for IE came out. To me that one tool
made a front end web development career a viable option. Do y'all remember JS
before Firebug? ouch

~~~
snapetom
alert()

~~~
gcb0
There was a very capable javascript debugger as a mozilla plugin (don't think
it was an addon), years before firebug/browsers dev tools had one. It don't
remember the name, it was something with a V.

~~~
fzzzy
Venkman.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venkman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venkman)

~~~
carussell
Firebug was neither the first for step-by-step JS debugging, nor for poking at
the DOM. Those two things were within the purview of Venkman—the original
Mozilla JS debugger—and the DOM Inspector—Firebug's predecessor created in
2001 by Joe Hewitt, an ex-Netscape/AOL employee and the original author of
Firebug itself. Honza's timeline is off. I've left a note in the blog comments
about this.

------
slivanes
I remember using Firebug for the first time and being blown away by the real-
time editing of the DOM/CSS, it saved my F5 key from certain destruction.

------
alayek
In my first job, about four years ago, my first task was to make certain
modifications in firebug for our company's internal use (mostly in reporting
and filtering).

I didn't even know JS to begin with. Jan Orvadko, the lead maintainer of
Firebug, is an amazingly approachable & affable human being. He helped me a
lot in the IRC channel, in going through the firebug codebase.

------
rplnt
Opera used to have its own debugging/inspection tool[1] as well. It was
released in 2008, it was open-source[2] (unlike the browser), didn't required
plugins like firebug at the time, had handy remote debugging, overall I
enjoyed it the most. But it died with the browser. Honestly, I'm surprised
it's still up somewhere.

1\. [https://www.opera.com/dragonfly/](https://www.opera.com/dragonfly/)

2\.
[https://github.com/operasoftware/dragonfly](https://github.com/operasoftware/dragonfly)

------
Illniyar
"The story of Firefox and Firebug is synonymous with the rise of the web. We
fought the good fight and changed how developers inspect HTML and debug JS in
the browser. Firebug ushered in the Web 2.0 era. "

I love, used and appreciate firebug as much as the next guy but this is a bit
much. Its a great product that helped alot of people it's not an ideal to
fight for nor "ushered" in web 2.0.

~~~
underwater
I was building web products professionally before and after Firebug and the
difference was staggering. It opened up the full possibilities of CSS and
JavaScript like no other tool before it.

------
zeveb
I'm really concerned about how much weaker the new WebExtensions API than the
previous extensions API. Just today I saw (and submitted:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15542316](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15542316))
an interesting article about Keysnail, an amazing extension which is
impossible to turn into a WebExtension — all because WebExtensions
(apparently) forbids overriding C-n despite allowing override of other key
sequences.

I'm very concerned for the future direction of Firefox.

~~~
TheRealPomax
Given that webextensions are not just a firefox thing: HN's probably the wrong
place to voice that particular concern? We're losing a number of sweet addons
with the switch to web extensions in Firefox specifically, but in terms of
cross-browser gains, web extensions rather than "these things only work in
this one browser" still seems the right way forward, and it's just another web
spec so if we need more out of it, let's get the attention of the people who
draft that spec and get them to given more access to the things we need to
bring back the functions that made life better.

~~~
zeveb
> Given that webextensions are not just a firefox thing: HN's probably the
> wrong place to voice that particular concern?

Why not? This thread is about losing valuable capabilities due to the
migration to WebExtensions. Firebug was possible in the old extension system;
it's impossible (as I understand it) with WebExtensions.

> in terms of cross-browser gains, web extensions rather than "these things
> only work in this one browser" still seems the right way forward

Do they? Is working on multiple browsers really that useful for extensions,
many of which exist specifically to modify the behaviour of a single browser?
For that matter, ISTR that WebExtension aren't _really_ cross-browser —
there's still some customisation required.

> if we need more out of it, let's get the attention of the people who draft
> that spec and get them to given more access to the things we need to bring
> back the functions that made life better

I don't disagree. Why not do that _before_ eliminating useful functionality?

My concern is for Firefox's direction: it has spent the past several years
removing useful functionality (most recently extensibility, but also the
security of its previous Sync product, which is now thoroughly compromised)
and adding extraneous functionality (e.g. Pocket, Hello, even containers[0]).
I'm reminded very much of how the GNOME project went off the deep end,
removing functionality (twelve years on and it _still_ can't replace
xscreensaver) and features because they thought Linux users want simplicity.

Likewise, Firefox and Mozilla seem to have been taking a series of decisions
based on an IMHO inaccurate read on Firefox's userbase and that userbase's
desires. I believe that Firefox users use it because it is philosophically
better: freer, more secure, more private, more open than IE, Chrome or Opera.
I think we're fine if it's practically worse, because we know that in time
philosophical quality will lead to practical quality, but the reverse rarely
happens if ever.

[0] Firefox has supported profiles for years; profiles and containers have
significant overlaps in functionality and I _think_ profiles are more usable.

------
robin_reala
I guess this is the right place to point out to people reminiscing that if you
open Firefox dev tools and click the options cog, you can select a Firebug
theme.

~~~
muxator
Not the same thing...

The Firefox dev tools' Firebug theme gives me the illusion that I can click
the network tab and find that old, reassuring interface. And instead it's the
(in my opinion) less functional one from dev tools.

At that point, I prefer ditching the Firebug theme altogether, and embrace the
loss. :(

~~~
irrational
I did that, but I'm not seeing the same functionality. It seems to just be a
skin.

------
osteele
Before Firebug, those of us doing web development were writing things like
this for use in our coder's carry kits
[http://blog.osteele.com/2006/03/inline-
console/](http://blog.osteele.com/2006/03/inline-console/)

Firebug made me happy to leave that behind.

------
agotterer
Thank you for the amazing contribution and for for making it a little bit
easier to debug during a time when debugging was even harder. Firebug set in
motion the browser tools that are bundled today.

------
nopacience
i will miss you firebug!!! I loved when i could open firebug + native dev
tools... that way i could navigate in html with firebug and make css changes
on the native dev.. on the same screen!

Now i can only open the native dev tools and i can only view either "Style
editor" OR "Dom navigation" but not both at the same time.

Will miss you firebug as extension!!

------
wnevets
I loved Firebug until chrome's devtools got so good and fast. Chrome's
devtools is a main reason why I use chrome so much.

------
baldfat
I know Firebug was great but it didn't usher in Web 2.0

> Jan 2007, Firebug 1.0 The start of Web 2.0!

O'Reilly Media Web 2.0 Conference was in 2004

We than had the infamous Time Person of the Year "YOU" "TIME selected the
masses of users who were participating in content creation on social networks,
blogs, wikis, and media sharing sites."

~~~
Drdrdrq
That in itself doesn't mean much. At the time it was said that Web 2.0 is like
teenage sex: everyone is talking about it, almost noone is doing it and those
few that are doing it are doing it all wrong. :)

I do agree that Firebug (as much as I miss it) didn't have much to do with Web
2.0 though.

~~~
pvdebbe
I just hate how everyone has their own meanings for "Web 2.0". I wish the
modern, JS-dependent web was versioned 3.0 or something.

------
nerpderp83
Firebug enabled the Web 2.0 revolution. The impact it has had is immeasurable.

Joe Hewitt needs a huge fucking award. Huge.

------
agnivade
FF Quantum seems to usher in a new era in browser development.

Upgraded CSS Engine

Upgraded Render Enginer with WebRender

And now integrated firebug support.

Exciting stuff.

~~~
robin_reala
WebRender is coming but absolutely isn’t ready yet; it’s not even turned on by
default in Nightly (although I use it on my home machine and it’s getting a
very good very quickly).

~~~
Drdrdrq
And there is no integrated Firebug - just replacement.

~~~
krallja
> The good news is that all the capabilities of Firebug are now present in
> current Firefox Developer Tools.

> Firebug 3 ... was built as an extension to built-in Firefox devtools and
> eventually integrated directly into devtools.

------
nicodjimenez
RIP Firebug, brings back great memories of learning HTML / CSS / XPath
selectors. I use Chrome developer tools these days (not a huge fan but it does
work) but Firebug will always have a special place in my heart as a GREAT
debugging tool.

------
jdorfman
Joe Hewitt and Blake Ross have really left their mark. I wonder from time to
time what they would have created if Facebook didn't acquire Parakey back in
2007. Hopefully, they will collaborate again in the future.

------
mixmastamyk
I appreciated firebug back in the day, but a few years ago the devs decided to
force a white background to it, which did not work in our darkened media
studio. They would not reconsider (not the first time I’ve had a run in with
white bg fascists; they’ve now taken over the prefs panel).

Thankfully moz dev tools were getting to be just good enough around that time
and supported a dark theme. Last time I ever used firebug, thanks for all the
fish.

------
shahriar-alam
Firebug was the great tool for checking XHR is a clean way. No bullshit only
what is most important. Yes, you can do it in built-in dev tools too, but
sometimes it feels like UI is unnecessarily complex.

------
partycoder
I remember using Firebug for the first time: it was polished from the very
beginning, not feeling like an early release at all.

Had enough added value to be a commercial tool, but it was released for free.
For that, kudos.

------
guftagu
I'm debugging a symphony app that sends out error messages as full fledged
HTML pages with bells and whistles. Previously I could see the rendered
version of the HTML in firefox by going to the Preview tab after selecting the
request but a short while back they removed this feature. I am now forced to
use Chrome for debugging. I can't see the point of Forgot dev edition of they
have to remove useful dev features from it.

------
look_lookatme
For those that have made the switch in the Firefox Developer era, do you find
the developer tools as good as Chrome's?

In the last week I've made the switch back to Firefox (Developer) and it's
been awesome. I haven't had done any front end work yet so I haven't used the
developer tools, though. I never really cared for the ergonomics of the Chrome
devtools but I was really familiar with them and could efficiently
profile/debug code.

~~~
fenier
I consider most of the tools on par or better than what Chrome offers, with
the exception of the performance tools. I find that Chrome makes things to
clearer to folks, and the panel is easier to work with.

------
werdnapk
I'm on Firefox 56, but I believe Firebug worked in 55 still. The performance
of Firebug fire exceeded the native browser tools.

The inspector tool in Firebug was damn near instant to allow me to select an
element in the browser. Firefox's version of the inspector can take upwards of
5 seconds sometimes to become "ready". Side note... I'm on a 7 year old
macbook air, so the differences are very notable.

~~~
concerned_user
My experience as well lately dev tools are very sluggish in FF.

------
digitalmaster
Wow.. feels like a legendary player is retiring .. Thank you for changing the
game Firebug. #hallOfFame

------
satanic_pope
When I started out as a web developer 5 years ago, one of the prime reasons
for choosing FF over chrome was Firebug.

As a beginner, it made debugging so much easier. Five years later, I still
cant fathom using anything but Firefox, alas, without firebug.

~~~
giobox
My memory might be way off base here, but I'm fairly sure Chrome Dev Tools
were in a reasonable state by 2012. Screenshots from the time certainly
suggest so. My experience is much the opposite, in that it was around 2012 or
so that I probably stopped installing Firefox on my dev machines altogether.

That said, recent features in Firefox (Containers especially) have me much
more interested again.

~~~
Zarel
I played around with Chrome in 2008 when it first came out in beta, and I
remember finding Chrome Devtools an improvement over Firebug.

By the time the Firefox 4 betas were out, it was no contest; Firebug was very
crashy (which, to be fair, it's hard for an extension to support a beta
browser, but Chrome's dev and beta channels always had a reasonably stable
devtools thanks to it being built-in).

------
homero
I still need some extensions
[https://getfirebug.com/wiki/index.php/Firebug_Extensions](https://getfirebug.com/wiki/index.php/Firebug_Extensions)

------
shmerl
Regarding Firefox Developer Tools. Is there a way to set older dark theme
there? I don't like the current one that appeared in Firefox 57. Previous had
milder / metal colors.

------
smaili
Good memories and good times. Thanks Firebug for existing, it' hard to imagine
web development without dom inspection, especially in the days of IE6.

------
yeukhon
Wait DDG couldn't possibly have existed when 0.2 was released in 2006? Is that
image a reconstruction on an XP VM?

~~~
Macha
Yeah, the video is from 2013, not 2006.

------
inanutshellus
edit: wldcordeiro pointed to a UI that looks nothing like what I have as a UI
(in Firefox 56)... removing my comment until I can figure out why.

edit edit: Apparently the last time I tried to install Firebug it instead
asked me to just make Developer Tools look like Firebug, which is definitely a
bad idea.

~~~
wldcordeiro
The modern Firefox Debugger has none of the issues you're whining about.

[https://github.com/devtools-html/debugger.html](https://github.com/devtools-
html/debugger.html)

------
invalid_name
I expected a similar article when it was time to say goodbye to Internet
Explorer as well.

------
lurker12390879
It lives on in Waterfox...

------
homero
Firebug taught me css. I'll miss it. I hate the built in tool.

~~~
limeblack
Same here. I wish there was something like Firebug for Android Studio.
Unfortunately it isn't exactly the same idea. MIT app inventor is to simple.

------
throwaway6497
What is Joe Hewitt doing now?

~~~
TheRealPomax
[https://medium.com/@joehewitt/entrepreneurship-or-lack-
there...](https://medium.com/@joehewitt/entrepreneurship-or-lack-
thereof-36ae0f420a07)

------
boksiora
nooooo :(( i miss it. please bring it back

------
moomin
It feels like Firebug’s had a longer farewell tour than Barbara Streisand.

