
A Buddhist monk confronts Japan's suicide culture (2013) - bookofjoe
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/06/24/last-call-3
======
b5
This is one of my favourite _New Yorker_ articles. I wish they published more
articles like this.

Suicidal thoughts are a really tough thing to deal with. I've struggled with
them for my entire adult life -- more than 20 years now, and counting. They're
also deeply personal, and it's hard to find a one-size-fits-all method of
helping people through them.

In my case, I find them perversely soothing. Planning it out, and planning out
the accompanying clean-up, is strangely calming for me; I suspect at least
part of it is because it's applying a feeling of control and structure to
otherwise chaotic, painful, or confusing situations. As I run through details
in my head, the feelings that incited the thoughts begin to dimish.

I know, rationally, that it would be devastating for those left behind. I
know, rationally, that no amount of preparation or planning will make it
easier or less painful for them. I know, rationally, that suicide is _not_ a
solution for anything.

But it _feels_ like all of the above. It feels like a release, like a perfect,
lasting solution to pain and confusion and distress I've carried with me for
so long.

I'm lucky that I've found some kind of equilibrium that's allowed me to work
through them when they occur, relatively harmlessly. I know others who aren't
so lucky, and who haven't found something that works for them. Some of thoem
have died; others have survived, but aren't whole since.

It's something that's hard for us to talk about, and current society doesn't
seem predisposed to talk about. Many of those suffering the most are faced by
a media climate that's not helpful or supportive, and makes it hard for some
of the most emotionally and psychologically vulnerable to seek help because of
who they were born.

If you've ever had thoughts, please don't suffer in silence: try to find
someone, anyone, to talk to. In the UK, we have the Samaritans[1] on 116123
(free to call). There's also Breathing Space Scotland[2] on 0800 83 85 87
(also free).

[1]: [https://www.samaritans.org/how-we-can-help/contact-
samaritan...](https://www.samaritans.org/how-we-can-help/contact-samaritan/)

[2]: [https://breathingspace.scot/](https://breathingspace.scot/)

~~~
l8mr4
Buddhism has an explanation for why these thoughts are soothing. It comes down
to thinking provides a level of control and an appearance of a illusion you
feel in control of. But alas this is illusion. The mind simply likes thinking.
In fact Buddhists off camera will say your addicted to thinking. I believe
this will be shown to be true. The default mode network may be the “addiction
to thinking.”

~~~
gerbilly
I haven't ever heard of the explanation you offer for why thoughts are helpful
(having the appearance of control over an apparent illusion?).

Thinking is required in buddhist practise, it's just not thinking about
anything you please.

Also, one usually deals with the coarser forms of suffering first, and no
special esoteric philosophies and techniques are needed to address them,
usually just clear thinking and problem solving is required.

~~~
Annatar
"having the appearance of control over an apparent illusion?"

 _Just before Ninakawa passed away the Zen master Ikkyu visited him. “Shall I
lead you on?” Ikkyu asked.

Ninakawa replied: “I came here alone and I go alone. What help could you be to
me?”

Ikkyu answered: “If you think you really come and go, that is your delusion.
Let me show you the path on which there is no coming and going.”_

~~~
gerbilly
I get what is being referred to, but if you are implying that buddhism teaches
everything is an illusion, the Buddha himself specifically warned his
followers away from nihilism and solipsism.

Your everyday conventional wisdom is not negated by buddhism.

For example, buddhist people use the word 'I' all the time ("Let _me_ show you
the path on which there is no coming and going."), despite trying to realise
the doctrine of 'no self" in their practise.

The doctrines attempt to eliminate suffering, proceeding from the coarsest
levels down to more and more subtle forms of suffering.

The delusion the monk is suffering from here, can only become uncovered after
much work has been done clearing the way first.

~~~
emptysongglass
This Zen parable is faulty wisdom (like so much of Mahayana and Vajrayana
fanfiction). The title the Buddha used to refer to himself, _Tathagata_ , can
simultaneously be translated as, "Thus Comes One" and "Thus Goes One". It's
not about a path where there is no coming and going, it's about both
simultaneously.

~~~
jdietrich
Buddhism is a living tradition and always has been. Theravadins have no
monopoly on "true" Buddhism - the Pali canon was transcribed hundreds of years
after the death of Gautama Buddha and the authorship and authenticity of many
parts of the canon remain disputed within the Theravada tradition.

Perhaps more to the point, a quotation from Nanda-manava-puccha (as translated
by Thanissaro Bhikku):

"Whatever brahmans & contemplatives describe purity in terms of views &
learning, describe purity in terms of precepts & practices, describe purity in
terms of manifold ways: none of them, living there in that way, I tell you,
have crossed over birth & aging."

~~~
emptysongglass
What?

The Buddha is speaking _very_ specifically in the quote you've mentioned of a
class of religious priest, the brahman, and the contemplative engaging in
jhanic meditations that do not lead to the ending of suffering.

You're right, the words of the Buddha weren't written down for hundreds of
years after but across those earliest texts flung across space and time, we
find an astonishing harmony.

Look, I'm seeing calls to end my supposed promotion of sectarian strife: I
love Three Pillars of Zen, have obsessively studied the Mahayana epic the
Surangama Sutra, and washed myself in the pure poetry of the Complete Reality
school. But I cannot stress enough, and neither did the Buddha, in the
importance of incisive, unequivocal language when it comes to identifying
right view.

Vajrayana, the deeply mystical arm of Buddhism, stresses the importance of a
guru relationship to the disciple, fraught with a history of sexual
manipulation. Unquestioned power structures do this. We have thousands of
years of history to support this.

Mahayana Buddhism gave birth to Zen, perhaps the cleanest strain to emerge but
which sacrificed an essential tenet: that a monk should not grow their own
food; should rely on the continuing generosity of the people to survive. It is
further compromised by the trappings of rites and rituals, which the Buddha of
the early texts rejected.

And what of Nichiren who famously declared that enlightenment was impossible
in such a fallen world? The same enlightenment the pre-Mahayana Buddha
stressed was for everyone?

~~~
Annatar
"And what of Nichiren who famously declared that enlightenment was impossible
in such a fallen world?"

Nothing, or better yet, no thing. They're just wrong.

------
gkanai
2019 update: Japan Records Lowest Suicide Rate Since Statistics Were First
Kept in 1978 [https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h00381/japan-records-
lo...](https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h00381/japan-records-lowest-
suicide-rate-since-statistics-were-first-kept-in-1978.html)

~~~
umvi
It's still extremely high compared to other countries though.

To put it in perspective, nearly as many people die by suicide alone in Japan
(per capita) as suicide + guns _combined_ in America (per capita).

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
It's hard to get accurate stats on gun deaths in America because many reports
lump in suicide by gun and accidental shootings to make the numbers look
scarier. You might be double dipping.

~~~
CarlRJ
On the other hand, it has been suggested that quite a few deaths that are
actually suicide using a gun get reported as "gun cleaning accident",
presumably to lessen the impact on relatives (however slightly).

------
75dvtwin
This a very good article, and good comments here.

Reading it, there is a quote from the person 'T':

> _" I understand that I’m in such an irretrievable situation because of my
> own fault, and I myself have to solve the problem. However, I’m a weak,
> dependent person who was financially supported by my parents until after
> reaching thirty, so I’m too weak to find a way out of this situation myself.
> . ."_

These words, I cannot help myself to think -- that these words, these labels
-- are not something he(she) came up with... Instead, these words are really
the words of T's parents, that got implanted in his head after continuous
drilling and pushing and pushing and pushing him to go to that law school.

It is sad and painful to read. When parents cannot appreciate the natural
beauty, talents and just overall the magic of life in their children....

Nobody can influence a mind person, his/hers inner-thoughs -- as deep, as
long-lasting as parents can.

Yes, may be that influence stops before 20, but parents influence is so deep
seated, that it will continue affect the person for the rest of the life.

Anybody who is a parent has to really take this seriously.

------
MandieD
One of the techniques of what Westerners call Stoicism is the negative
visualization that Nemoto has his patients/clients undergo - imagining you
only have a few weeks to live, that you've lost your material wealth, that
you've lost someone important to you, thinking about your death. Also,
intentional self-deprivation.

"A Guide to the Good Life: the Ancient Art of Stoic Joy" was well worth
reading and has a whole chapter on negative visualization as a means for
overall more positive thinking.

~~~
specialist
I have some experience here.

I now prefer to think of every day as the start of my life and ask myself
"What to do first?"

Life is a gift, everyday a celebration.

------
dotism
Ittetsu Nemoto is the subject of a wonderfully quiet documentary on this
selfsame topic, _The Departure_ , directed by Lana Wilson. (It is available on
Amazon Prime Video.)

------
dang
A thread from 2014:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8114547](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8114547)

------
momokoko
The reason I consider ending my life is because I have done the things I've
wanted to do in life. I would not have much to write on that paper as opposed
to visiting some friends and family for some conversation and hugs.

I think we forget that much of the suicide rate in adults, especially over 50,
is that the burden of life in much of the United States can become higher than
the benefits for some people at that age. Things like health ailments, cost of
healthcare, worsening job prospects, lack of social connections etc.

Please, do not take this as encouragement or other things for suicide. It is
simply an effort to help others to consider the quality of life issues we are
creating for people, as they age, in the United States. We continue to try to
treat the person, but maybe we need to treat the circumstances we are creating
that can place a person in that position.

~~~
mikelyons
The reason I consider ending my life is because I've done or experienced all
the things that realistically I want to or can. I'm never going to be an
attractive man, so I'll never have love, or a wife and kids. It's just not
worth it to me to work to pay to sustain myself just to watch the planet be
destroyed and the social fabric disintegrate. There's just nothing worth the
time or effort when living is just so unenjoyable.

~~~
asveikau
> I'm never going to be an attractive man, so I'll never have love, or a wife
> and kids.

This pops out to me.

I don't know your full circumstances but I don't think this is true.

If we focus only on the attractiveness aspect: I've known plenty of people of
both genders who I thought were "unattractive" people (a very subjective
term!) and they were partnered. If your desire is to find a partner, don't
give up on it or consider it an inevitable failure! You are worthy.

Then it makes me consider if there's some other health issue preventing
finding a partner or having a kid? Surely, a few of those exist, and I can
imagine them being very sad.

~~~
0xffff2
I think it's important to distinguish physical attraction from net total
attraction. Usually when people say "attractive" they mean the former, but I
think GP may mean the latter. I'm probably about average physically, but I
have my own set of personality issues that make me pretty damn unattractive on
the whole. I doubt I would be interested in anyone who was so fucked up that
they were interested in me.

I've come to terms with my situation and I'm not the least be suicidal, but I
think it's important to tread carefully when talking about this stuff online,
where you have so little context. Someone who says "I'm never going to be an
attractive man, so I'll never have love, or a wife and kids" has probably
thought about it more than you have, and certainly knows their own situation
much better than you do. I think it's extremely unhelpful to give them
platitudes like "You are worthy". Maybe they are, but you're really not in a
position to know.

~~~
asveikau
It's quaint that you think you cannot apply a nonphysical meaning for
"attractive" to my comment and see that the point still stands.

I think you're probably wrong about yourself too.

And yes I did call out that I don't know the full circumstances.

~~~
0xffff2
And I think it's very presumptuous of you to think that you know my own
circumstances better than I do. Both of your comments are, frankly,
condescending to a degree I find slightly insulting and I have no further
desire to continue this conversation.

------
wannabcodr
I’ve struggled with incessant suicidal desire for the last 75% of my years
alive on earth. Having given up everything in slow preparation for the act:
family, friends, savings, career - I can safely say that the only thing
holding me back is the infinite unknown of the afterlife.

------
atoav
A incredible read.

