
What teachers want to tell parents - munin
http://www.cnn.com/2011/09/06/living/teachers-want-to-tell-parents/index.html
======
maxharris
I grew up in a small town with an "above average" public school: nice
buildings, all classes were ~20 students or less, etc.

Yet my experience has led me to believe that K-12 didn't matter.

I learned to read at home, so they didn't give me that. I was constantly
stifled; from my perspective as a child, I saw that my own interests were
almost systematically kept out of reach (as an adult, I can see far further as
to why and how this situation came to be - but at the time, all I could do is
to see their chains and rebel). I was routinely in trouble from sixth grade on
up. Remember those end-of-year class trips you went on? They never let me go
because I was such trouble! I graduated high school with a D average.

The one thing they did do is to set back my educational development by about
three or four years. Once I was finally free, I had time to grow unhampered. I
discovered that learning was actually the opposite of prison, and that it had
everything to do with the things I was interested in. I studied all kinds of
things independently, and when I was ready, I took a couple of calculus
courses at a community college to prove that I was serious. On that basis, I
was able to gain acceptance at a well-respected university, where I majored in
molecular biology and graduated with distinction.

If proponents of public education really cared about what was best for me,
they would have left me alone. My experience shows that a K-12 education
wasn't necessary to prepare me for college, or for life.

Edit: I'm not saying that no child benefits from their K-12 education - it is
clear that some do. But why must it be involuntary? What justifies the laws
that compelled my parents to send me to a place they knew (at some level) was
hurting me?

~~~
tseabrooks
I had a very similar, if not identical, experience only I went to a fairly
poor elementary / middle school and a good high school. I finished school with
a D average.. and managed to still get into a private college on the strength
of my test scores and writing sample. I've since excelled at college and
graduate school.

I spend a lot of time these days wondering if I should home school my
children. I learned so much more at home than I did at school. I'd hate to
give my children the type of experience I did in public school.

~~~
jff
I can't imagine withholding from my children the type of experience I had in
public school. For 8 hours a day I was away from home, among dozens of people
my age. I had access to a pretty good library, far better than my small town's
public library. I played a school-owned bassoon (these would typically cost
over $3000) in our concert band, learned bass drum for marching band, got to
go on band trips. I learned leadership and co-operation with a variety of
different types of people--ranging from straight-A Mormon girls to poor white
kids to Mexican wanna-be gangsters--in class, in band (especially during band
camp), and as the eventual captain of the cross country team. I took cooking
courses, got to make nitrocellulose in our reasonably well-outfitted science
department, dissected pigs, and build my own cluster as an independent study
project. All in the public school of my little town of 2,000 people, with
around 60 in my graduating class.

Classes did not challenge me, but I buckled down, listened to lecture, did my
homework in class, and read when there was nothing else to do. As everyone
here is so fond of stating, if you're "too smart for school" you can teach
yourself in the evenings or even during class--but don't rob your child of the
opportunity to try new things, meet people, and for god's sake GET OUT OF THE
FUCKING HOUSE FOR A WHILE.

~~~
tseabrooks
I mentioned above, I went to a fairly good highschool. We didn't have classes
on Thursdays in my highschool. Instead we were required to participate in an
unpaid internships on Thursday. I volunteered at the local metropolitan
"science center" where kids went for field trips and people visited. It was
awesome... Almost every other volunteer was a home schooler. My best friend
was home schooled (met in college) and he is a concert level pianist and
extremely well rounded. Nationally home schoolers get together fairly often
and have "home school reunions".

You are speaking like someone with little knowledge of and/or interaction with
the homeschool population. You seem to have some severe misunderstandings
about the homeschool community. I think you should alleviate this large hole
in your knowledge before you berate a lifestyle you aren't familiar with.

~~~
jff
I grew up in a small town, so you're right--there weren't many homeschoolers.
I think there were two families in the area that homeschooled but later sent
their kids to public school for high school. These kids were the stereotype of
homeschooled kids: didn't really make friends, didn't interact well with
people, got good grades. One was a very nice guy who I became friends with in
cross country. Another seemed to be overtaken with the "preacher's son" thing,
tended to do crazy stuff and act out once he finally broke away from the
house. His sister was a strange, quiet girl who would wear her parka during
indoor P.E. so she would get heat exhaustion and be allowed to sit down.

The nearest towns to mine were all about 40 minutes away, and not even the
largest one had more than 20,000 people--not a big population to draw
homeschoolers from. In the case of the homeschoolers I met, I definitely got
the impression that their lives had been pretty well isolated, outside of
church--religion being the reason they were homeschooled in the first place.

I appreciate the way public school throws you into a mix with a bunch of
people you would not normally be around. Do homeschool kids sit in the back of
the bus and have the weird dude show them how to make a marijuana pipe out of
a pepsi can? When you're hanging with other homeschool kids, is there really
that much opportunity to learn how to deal with macho cholo bullshit when all
you want them to do is load the band truck? To me, it seems like it would
generally be a very restricted community: deeply religious people who don't
want their children polluted, and parents who are well-off and smart enough to
do the teaching themselves.

I probably could have learned more academically being homeschooled, but at
least where I grew up, public school was the only social game in town, and
looking back I am glad I went. When I have kids, there will be serious
consideration to homeschooling for a while, but I strongly believe that their
first year or two of school and at least some of the middle/high school years
should be spent at a public school.

------
lucisferre
A friend of mine is a teacher and the stories are similar. Granted she teaches
at a school where she is largely dealing with spoiled rich brats (and by that
I mostly mean the parents, to say nothing of the kids). Still I'm not
surprised that stories are typical.

For their part my parents largely stayed out of my education. I was not a good
student but all the teachers said I was a very smart kid. My parents were
satisfied with that but always did whatever they could to encourage me to be a
better student. In the end though, nothing really changed until I chose to be
a better student and work harder. The life lessons of being responsible for my
own situation and my own education stuck with me and were good for me.

As for teachers heaping _all_ of the blame on defensive parents. I'd suggest
they would do good to remember many parents were students once too. They
remember just how traumatic school can be (as it often was for me) and how
vicious and horrible a teacher can seem when they decide to single out a
student for punishment. I can hardly blame some of them for acting
defensively. Stop the "poor me" routine and try some empathy instead. My
parents were perfectly happy to let me learn my own life lessons, but
occasionally a teacher decided to make it their life's mission to "fix" me.
Those experiences were usually terrible. In the end the best teachers simply
chose to believe in me and looked extra disappointed when I didn't try hard.
That was usually punishment enough.

Honestly, I'd say the biggest problems with education these days are not the
parent, or the teachers but rather are systematic. I think we'd all be better
off focusing on that if we wan't it to improve, rather than parents blaming
the teachers and vice-versa.

~~~
wccrawford
The teachers that decide to 'fix' a student would never listen to your advice,
and they're the ones that need it. They obviously feel they have a holy
mission and no common sense is going to stop them from doing it.

------
mrbgty
Wow, that article is really one sided. Even if I accept the fact that it's all
true, the teacher perspective doesn't seem to consider the parents perspective
at all.

Teachers really don't know the kids as well as the parents do. This isn't the
teachers fault, its because they're having to control 20 kids at once. Still,
I've noticed as a volunteer many times where children have gotten reprimanded
for doing something by one teacher when they were only following directions
given by another. Because these children really cannot stand up for
themselves, often times they don't know how to respond which can result in a
number of different behaviors.

The burden of maturity should be falling on the adults (teachers and parents),
not the children and yet so often its the children who respond in the most
mature way.

Yes parents should not be so defensive when discussing their children with
teachers, but at the same time those parents SHOULD be the advocate for their
child who does not yet know how (or have the power to) to stand up for
themselves.

~~~
scarmig
The teacher-student-parent relationship isn't adversarial. When you say that
parents should advocate for the side of the child, you make it seem like it's
a sports game or trial. It isn't.

Imagine you take your child to the doctor, and the doctor says that your child
drinking several milkshakes a day is bad for his health and leading him to
obesity. If the parent went on and on making excuses for him--"Billy gets
stressed out by school and needs milkshakes to unwind!" we would rightfully
mock the parent. But when teachers give feedback about how they've observed
Billy picking on other kids, parents require proof that their special
snowflake would ever do such a terrible thing and, when proven, start looking
for reasons that the other kid brought it on himself.

Everyone's on the same side, here. And to be fair, though doctors and teachers
are both professionals, the higher status and respect given to doctors is in
many ways earned through very hard work. But teachers are professionals too,
not ex-convict nanny babysitters who are out to get your kid, and their
suggestions and criticisms deserve serious consideration.

~~~
stonemetal
_The teacher-student-parent relationship isn't adversarial._ How is it not on
some level? You get called to come down to the school. Little Billy has been
fighting again. You get there the teacher claims your son was bullying Joe.
Billy says Joe was bullying him and he was just defending himself and that the
teacher was writing on the chalk board with this back turned so he didn't see
anything.

~~~
nitrogen
In that situation, it ought to be possible to take an inquisitive approach:
collect evidence, consider the plausible scenarios, and make a decision. The
teacher would commit to being more attentive. The parent and child would
discuss honesty, the "boy who cried wolf" scenario, techniques for avoiding
bullying, and consequences if the child is found to be the aggressor rather
than the victim.

------
peteretep
> One of my biggest pet peeves is when I tell a mom something her son did and
> she turns, looks at him and asks, "Is that true?" Well, of course it's true.

I'd almost certainly ask my son that. Seems like a good way to get them
talking about the issue, and hear any mitigating factors they might consider.
A teacher who took that as a me questioning their authority ... grow up and
deal with it.

~~~
mavelikara
While I agree with many points the article raised,

    
    
      > Well, of course it's true. I just told you.
    

this is a very dangerous attitude for a teacher to have. Aristotle said that
men have more teeth than women, but that does not make it so.

~~~
slmbrhrt
They're not speaking as a teacher, but as a person with integrity, someone who
endeavors to tell only the truth, especially in a situation as grave as the
discipline of a child under their watch.

~~~
ZipCordManiac
They are human like the rest of us, good and bad. Do not assume integrity
simply because of somebodies profession.

~~~
slmbrhrt
I already said the profession wasn't part of the consideration.

Asking the child if what the teacher said is true is seen as an affront on the
author's character as a person, not as a teacher, so it's reasonable for them
to take offense at the accusation.

It's entirely reasonable not to trust the teacher's authority by default--I'm
not challenging that. I'm only defending the author's position on taking
offense to being challenged on something that was just said.

------
adamtmca
While I'm sympathetic to the struggle teachers have, the line about taking
advice from your child's teacher like you'd take advice from your lawyer or
doctor really irked me.

You can choose your lawyer, choose your doctor, choose your auto mechanic etc.
You can take their advice, look for someone different or just seek a second
opinion.

For parents with children in public school they have no choice who teaches
their children.

~~~
bradfa
Well, if you can't afford private doctors or lawyers, you get what the
government provides when you are in dire need of doctor or lawyer services.
You're stuck with what the state or other overseeing entity is willing to
provide. If you want someone better, you pay for it personally.

Get arrested, can't afford your own lawyer, you get one for free provided by
the state. You don't get to choose. Get really sick and rushed to the
hospital, you get a doctor for free provided by the state or hospital. You
don't get to choose. Car breaks, tough shit. State's not going to pay to fix
it. Ride the government subsided bus. Lose your job, get welfare and food
stamps. Go find another one yourself.

Same goes for education. Don't like your kid's teacher or school, go pay for a
private school or tutor or home school. That's how everything in life is. If
you don't like what's provided by your government for "free," go pay for your
own.

"Free" as in you are required to pay taxes, it's compulsory. Same way you pay
for public defenders for those who can't afford (or don't want) to hire their
own lawyers, you will pay for public schools for those who can't afford (or
don't want) private ones.

Deal with it.

~~~
OstiaAntica
There's no reason the government can't provide a voucher that allows a child
to attend the public or private school of their choice.

~~~
nitrogen
Actually, there is: public school teachers' unions lobby against school
vouchers. Since they have twice or more the budget of any private school
groups advocating for vouchers, the populace is convinced that vouchers are
evil. This happened in my state: those advocating for vouchers mailed a folded
8"x10" flyer to voters. In response, the teachers' union mailed a folded
16"x20" flyer.

------
phugoid
My son had his very first day of school today, and this article irks me.
Everyone who works for a living could write a similar article about how great
it would be to have unbounded trust, power and authority to carry out one's
job. But that's not the way it works.

My job as a parent is to protect my kids. At all costs. Riling the feathers of
a self-important teacher is of no concern. This is my blood that we're talking
about.

~~~
techiferous
Hi, former teacher here.

You're right. But also consider that the current economy does not support this
level of professionalism in teachers. Any teacher who can do a fantastic job
meeting all of the expectations of students, teachers and administrators is
smart enough to make 2x, 3x or more money in another profession with less
stress.

I actually enjoy teaching more than programming and it's a better fit for me.
But I choose programming because I can make 3x the money with half the effort.
I'm not stressed out and I can pay the bills.

So keep that in mind the next time you confront a teacher. Even though you may
technically be right, if you make their job harder, you may push them away
from teaching. Remember, they could be a doctor, lawyer, engineer, or some
other type of professional. We want to encourage highly intelligent and highly
educated people to remain teachers, and if you give teachers a hard time, the
only ones that will stick around are those who aren't able to find other jobs.
Which aren't the kind of teachers you want.

~~~
swasheck
So the economy is an excuse? If that's the case then, once again, everyone has
the same excuse for a lack of professionalism.

~~~
techiferous
Not really. Teachers aren't paid well enough compared to other professions, so
the opportunity cost is high.

My point about the economy is that you want the market forces to encourage
intelligent people to become teachers. Otherwise, you can get into a dangerous
positive feedback loop of uneducated people teaching the next generation. If
you make teaching a lousy job by underpaying teachers and treating them
poorly, then why would intelligent people who have other career opportunities
stick around?

------
fuzzylizard
The real problem today is that the majority of people view children as
accessories. They put them in front of the TV and let other people raise them,
i.e., teachers, sitcoms, and the internet. They don't really care about the
kids.

However, those kids are viewed as an extension of themselves and so any attack
on the kids is an attack on them. if you say that the kid has behavioral
problems, what the parent hears is that they are a bad parent/person. They
don't care about the kid, they care about how it reflects on them. This is the
same reason that you have parents beating up and murdering hockey coaches and
referees when they pull their kid. In the mind of the parent, the call is
against them.

We have moved from a society were the entire village raised the kids and
parents had the support, training, and coaching they needed. They were raised
in an environment in which kids were actually cared for and that was passed
onto new parents. Today, we move away from home, most of us don't have contact
with parents, grandparents, siblings, etc and we raise kids because they
either make us look good or it is simply the expected thing to do.
Unfortunately, they don't actually have any understanding of how to raise kids
and they are too busy to do a proper job anyway.

I am a firm believer that we are getting very close to the day when we will
have to issue licences before people are allowed to have kids. Not that we
should police who has them, but to ensure that people have the needed support
systems and knowledge in place before trying to be parents.

------
kemayo
_> above all else, never talk negatively about a teacher in front of your
child. If he knows you don't respect her, he won't either, and that will lead
to a whole host of new problems._

I don't want my child to view their teacher as an authority figure who cannot
be questioned and cannot make a mistake.

I'm not going to deliberately undermine the teacher, and I'll certainly give
full consideration to their arguments, but if I wind up disagreeing with them
then I'm not going to pretend that I believe my child was in the wrong just
for the sake of maintaining the teacher's authority.

 _> One of my biggest pet peeves is when I tell a mom something her son did
and she turns, looks at him and asks, "Is that true?" Well, of course it's
true. I just told you._

"Is that true?" is a confrontational way of saying it... but what's wrong with
getting the other side of the story? I should just assume that you were right?
Even assuming that you were telling the truth as you saw it, that doesn't mean
you're not wrong.

~~~
wyclif
_I don't want my child to view their teacher as an authority figure who cannot
be questioned and cannot make a mistake._

Erm, I think this rather misses the point completely. The point is not that
teachers are perfect and don't make mistakes-- _of course they aren't._ The
point is that teachers used to be invested with vocational authority.

In certain Asian cultures, children stand up when the teacher or _sensei_
enters the classroom, and his authority is not questionable by a child. In
America especially, the vocation of teacher has been denigrated so much now
that they are often viewed as glorified nannies or babysitters.

I don't blame young people for avoiding the profession altogether in today's
milieu in the West. There are certainly far more remunerative and respectable
things to do with your life, which is a shame because teaching the next
generation can be very rewarding.

~~~
Helianthus
>In certain Asian cultures, children stand up when the teacher or sensei
enters the classroom, and his authority is not questionable by a child.

Which is a rather dangerous attitude, I think, to entrench in a child. It is a
cultural difference (obviously, as I'm an American) but an important one that
I value: free-spirited individuality does not do well when one unquestionably
bends.

One of the most admirable traits of the American education system is, in my
mind, that it teaches disrespect of authority and the system, even if half the
time it is by the accident of incompetence.

I'm imagining someone rebutting with talk of the Pledge of Allegiance in the
schools. In my mind that is a perfect example: I don't know about you, but
enough talk was given to that _you did not have to say it if you didn't want
to_ that it was in fact an abject lesson in _choosing to conform._ Those who
pointedly did not faced some amount of ridicule learned how to earn their
independence, that it was not free and would not make them popular.

In the end the message I received from the topic of the Pledge was 1) you are
free to choose to acknowledge the authority of the flag, and 2) the cost of
exercising that freedom is high. These two unrelenting and possibly harsh
truths have served me well.

We teach our intellectuals and outsiders how to take the strength of
nonconformity for themselves.

~~~
shard
There's a difference between questioning authority and disrespecting
authority. I agree that one should question authority, but if you start a
relationship from a position of disrespect, the relationship can go nowhere
but down.

There is also a difference between questioning the teacher as a person versus
questioning the material he teaches. The students may not agree with some of
the material, but most of the time the teacher is someone who's underpaid, and
works way too hard to try to give them knowledge to give them a better life
and to help them succeed, often times to lift them out of a life of poverty
and low skilled labor. You can question his methods, his material, but to
question his intentions can be going too far.

------
joshAg
"One of my biggest pet peeves is when I tell a mom something her son did and
she turns, looks at him and asks, 'Is that true?' Well, of course it's true. I
just told you. And please don't ask whether a classmate can confirm what
happened or whether another teacher might have been present. It only demeans
teachers and weakens the partnership between teacher and parent."

"If your child said something happened in the classroom that concerns you, ask
to meet with the teacher and approach the situation by saying, 'I wanted to
let you know something my child said took place in your class, because I know
that children can exaggerate and that there are always two sides to every
story. I was hoping you could shed some light for me.'"

It infuriates me that the author implies that only kids can exaggerate, bend
the truth, or lie. Apparently there's more than one side to every story only
when the first side isn't the teacher's.

------
jinushaun
Growing up, the "bad" kids were always the ones with parents defending their
kids' bad behavior or saying it's false. The "good" kids were the ones with
parents who accepted that their kid fucked up. People don't like to be called
out on their bad parenting.

~~~
sin7
Whenever I got in trouble, my father promised to bring hell and the wrath of a
thousand demons once he got me home. It made the teachers happy and brought
little smirks to their faces. But he made his own decisions and rarely was I
punished.

------
watmough
I think there's a move towards home-schooling, at least here in Texas, partly
due to the broken-ness of the public school system.

Sure, there's some great teachers, but there's also a large number who garner
poor results year after year and are never fired. The problems of offensive
parents and unruly medicated children are obviously pervasive.

The article doesn't even touch on why, with huge unemployment, and massively
expensive college costs, children might as well give up hope of using
education to attain the standard of living their parents were able to attain.

~~~
pnathan
College isn't _that_ expensive if you don't go to the big-name schools.

Further, being uneducated is a nice way to assure you'll have a hard job life.

At least being educated gives you some ability to get ahead.

------
Triumvark
1\. [When I tell a mother something happened, and they ask their child:]
"Well, of course it's true. I just told you."

2\. "If your child said something happened..." [the parent should acknowledge]
"that there are always two sides to every story..."

Ok, parents complicate and often undermine education. Still, a little
consistency would be nice.

------
tomjen3
After reading that I can see why he hates parents.

Not because the parents are right but above all never talk negatively about
the teacher to the child and because I say so it is true shows an entitlement
issue on the part of the teacher (bordering on the nacisistic).

Respect is earned and if someone is completely unable to get respect when he
has to actually answer for what he has done he doesn't dserve the respect in
the first place.

I have had amazing teachers I have had teachers who were bad and techers who
were inbetween. All of them have been wrong on occasion (no surprise, they are
human after all) but the only ones I ever lost respect for were does who
didn't admit it (or those who blamed their students).

Kids are smarter than you think.

~~~
DifE-Q
If you are a parent are you entitled? -- The answer is Yes. You have certain
rights, responsibilities and trust vested in you by society for that child.
WHEN you give your child up to the school system, you divest those rights,
responsibilities and trust to the school system.

And it is true, respect is earned - for people; but not position. I respected
very few of my teachers individually. However I respected the office that any
one of them held and I gave respect to all of them no matter if I respected
them as a person or not. This is both right and wise.

------
andrewcross
My aunt is a teacher and these examples are bang on. However the one thing the
article doesn't touch on are how terrified teachers are to make any physical
contact with students, regardless of the situation.

All it takes is one parent to accuse them of sexual harassment and their
careers are forever tainted. Not saying all contact is fair game, but a
teacher putting their arm around a child who has been hurt should not be
damaging to their career. The power balance is entirely out of whack.

------
sun123
OK. I have seen a bigger problem. The teacher asked for a student's record
notes "in a harsh way" and "threatened" to give her low grades. The student
eventually committed suicide leaving a suicide note saying "This teacher is
responsible for my death".

Later the teacher spent days in jail.

~~~
gaius
Url?

