

Ask HN: Offered new job position, no pay rise. What to do? - grecy

Hi HN,<p>I&#x27;ve been working as an Application Manager for a few years now, basically babysitting a couple of enterprise applications, doing a little development and fixing lots of things when they break.<p>I&#x27;m actually a Software Engineer and am way overqualified for this position, but I&#x27;m in a very remote place, so options are limited.<p>We&#x27;ve been working on a &quot;promotion&quot; or &quot;more senior&#x2F;technical&quot; position for a long, long time, and the offer letter finally came across my desk.<p>The description is much more senior, much more responsibility and accountability for performance and systems. It&#x27;s also got components of mentoring younger staff and being on call (yuk!).<p>The salary they&#x27;re offering is identical to what I&#x27;ve been on for the last 2 years. No extra benefits or anything.<p>Their justification for this is I&#x27;m at 100% of my benchmark for my current role, so I can&#x27;t get a raise. In the new role, my current salary is only around 85% of the benchmark, so I would be eligible for a raise when those discussions come around again in a year.<p>I feel like they&#x27;re trying to get me to do this without adjusting my pay accordingly.<p>How can I word my reply in such a way to make it sound like I&#x27;m very interested, and really want my career to progress, but I also expect (deserve?) a pay rise.<p>Thanks,
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tptacek
The reality of compensation is that, contrary to the expectations of virtually
every tech employee in the universe, it is completely decoupled from job
responsibilities and titles.

Compensation is set by supply and demand, and the way those forces augment or
sap your negotiating leverage.

Almost every workplace in tech has some set of procedures for routinely
adjusting compensation. If you're happy with your comp, you can let those
processes grind in the background and get on with your life.

If you're _unhappy_ with your comp, those processes are a trap, and you should
(briefly) ignore them. Instead, figure out 1-3 strong arguments for improved
compensation. Changes in job responsibility are one good reason; changes in
the market are at least as useful. It helps to seem irreplaceable. The reasons
you might be perceived as irreplaceable change from quarter to quarter; try to
keep track of them.

When your manager appeals to them, politely dismiss them: say something like,
"I understand why the system works the way it does, but in this case I think
the system isn't capturing my current value. I like my work here too much to
allow a process snag to make me unhappy. Because of [REASONS], we need to
special-case this conversation. What arrangements can we make to work this
out?"

Your manager doesn't want to give you an out-of-process raise. At least one of
their reasons is valid: if they develop a reputation for giving out-of-process
raises, the whole system goes to hell and the team becomes impossible to
manage; perversely, being disorganized but occasionally generous with comp can
_increase_ turnover. Defense of process is likely to be your manager's primary
objection to giving you a raise (the money probably won't be; it's not their
money they're allocating to you).

So anticipate that. Be ready to negotiate for something other than an on-the-
spot raise; instead, you can nail down a series of short/medium term
milestones. "I'm at 85% of our benchmark compensation for my new role [note:
benchmark comp is a fiction]. I'm new to the role, so I understand why you
might not want to offer me an immediate improvement. All we need to do is
bridge the gap between now and next year's review. Can we come up with targets
to hit so that we can do an early review next quarter?"

On a good team, there is nothing your manager is more worried about than
turnover: again, supply and demand. The naive way to exploit that fear is to
get an offer somewhere else and use it as leverage. This will backfire; unless
your management is not only excellent but also very, very in tune with your
career (unlikely!), they'll just flip the "damaged goods" bit. They might
placate you for a few months, but their new goal --- totally rational --- will
to make sure you're not irreplaceable anymore.

So, like I said a few paragraphs ago, find a way to appeal to the turnover
concern without putting a gun to their head. "I'm happy, but I could see not
being happy in a few months if the situation stays this way" is a little on-
the-nose, but it's better than (a) nothing or (b) an ultimatum.

------
gexla
Sounds obvious to me. Negotiate something better. If they can't provide it,
then find something different.

> I'm actually a Software Engineer and am way overqualified for this position.

I think this is a myth. Nobody is ever overqualified for the position they are
in. Getting where you want to be in life requires X skills (which includes way
more than just tech) and circumstances. Your mix got you right where you are
at. You are exactly qualified for your situation. Also, no matter what your
skills, you will never be so highly skilled that you master people and life.
Perhaps your issue is that your skill base isn't well enough balanced. Maybe
you need to spend less time bolstering your tech skills and more time on
bolstering your people skills.

> How can I word my reply in such a way to make it sound like I'm very
> interested, and really want my career to progress, but I also expect
> (deserve?) a pay rise.

Pour a 40 for careers, they are dead.

Personally, I would probably walk. Negotiate your way out the door to see if
they are willing to give you a substantial raise. If they aren't willing, then
the value simply isn't there. Bottom line, if you are making the company
money, they will go a certain distance to keep you. If you want to be making
more money, then you need to be looking for a gig where the value is greater.

If you are afraid you can't get another gig, then you should probably start
looking real hard at fixing that. There are a lot of places which provide
remote gigs. Start looking around at what's out there and start connecting
with people.

Don't think too linearly though. You haven't had a raise for 2 years, you
would be moving to 85% and lots of other people have already walked. It
appears to me that you aren't going to be making much more money either way.
If you dig the job, you are itching for the new position, and the money is
okay, then take it.

ETA:

Disclaimer, I'm a freelancer, so moving from one project to another is normal
for me. My advice might not be so great for you. ;)

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pzxc
Wow... to be honest, it sounds like they think you might be a fool.

Here's how my instincts tell me to respond:

"Only a fool would accept increased responsibilities and the addition of being
on call without more compensation. If you honestly can't afford to increase
pay at all, I'd prefer to stay in my current position and continue to do the
bang-up job I've been doing. If you can afford something, let's talk."

But my instincts usually get me into trouble, so I wouldn't actually say that
without taking the time to think things through.

Thinking things through a bit more, I can only come to one likely conclusion.
Honestly, they already think you are a fool... and are just trying to get more
work out of you. What rational person would go from 40 hours a week to 40+??
hours a week (if you don't think being on-call is working extra hours, you've
never done it) plus new jobs like training other people, and no additional
pay?

I'd be scared if I were you. Either they are entirely stupid (possible), or
they just flat out don't need you at all and consider you
expendable/replaceable with the next coder that walks down the street, or they
would never even ask something ridiculous. Or you've demonstrated them in the
past that you were willing to accept ridiculous things, I dunno.

Are you sure they need you? If so, you have some room to be polite and not
burn any bridges but stand firm that more responsibility will only be accepted
with more compensation. If they don't need you, they are playing you and you
should keep your mouth shut while looking for a new place to work. (and not
accept the promo in as few words as possible)

Personally, I'd probably confront them about the absurdity of their proposal,
but I tend to be direct like that, everyone knows where I stand when I work
with them and I'm not afraid to say unpopular things. It's gotten me into
trouble plenty of times; I don't necessarily recommend it.

Do what _YOU_ think you should do, not what some stranger on the internet
says. (Though sometimes I agree it's useful to hear a variety of opinions to
see if you've missed any angles)

EDIT: Okay maybe I wouldn't confront them. At least not for a few days, I'd
let myself cool for a while and think about it. Please don't read my post and
go confront them and get fired, if you need the job that is. But don't
voluntarily agree to make yourself miserable with more work for no additional
benefit.

~~~
grecy
Thanks for the honest thoughts, I appreciate it.

Absolutely, I need to do what _I_ think is right, I guess I'm asking for other
opinions because I don't know if I'm the one being unreasonable, or if they
are, and it's nice to get a few other perspectives.

I just spoke to a good friend at work here who I trust, and he said the same
as you. They're treating me like a fool, and there is no way I should take it.

There is a little history - I'm an immigrant, they helped me get Permanent
Residency, and I've always been underpaid. The company has a chronic history
of underpaying and undervaluing tech people.

They need me, no doubt about it, but they're also letting a lot of very, very
good people across the company walk out. Three friends in the last three
months have stood their ground and eventually just walked out, the company
didn't try to offer them anything to stay on, even though they're doing the
work of 10 people and are basically irreplaceable.

I think I'll go for the polite yet firm "It's not reasonable to ask me to take
on increased word, responsibilities AND be on call with any extra compensation
at all. No thanks".

~~~
karuneshkaushal
> I'm an immigrant, they helped me get Permanent Residency, and I've always
> been underpaid. The company has a chronic history of underpaying and
> undervaluing tech people.

Whatever you are considering at this time, please please please do not think
in terms of gratitude for this company. They brought you to your current job
because of your utility. They are NOT in the business of helping immigrants.
At worst, if you leave, another immigrant will get their chance at a Permanent
Residency.

> Three friends in the last three months have stood their ground and
> eventually just walked out, the company didn't try to offer them anything to
> stay on, even though they're doing the work of 10 people and are basically
> irreplaceable.

I would start looking for other options EVEN IF they offer me better
compensation/benefits etc. Any time someone more can leave, leaving you with
like double or triple the work. We can be almost sure there are no stock
options etc. in your company for tech people. You can't go on negotiating pay
every few months. It is hard, and makes you look very selfish: "the company is
in a constant 'crisis', and this guy just wants increased comp/benefits." (No
matter how self-made the crisis is)

------
powatom
In my experience, a pay-rise is rare unless there is direct pressure from you,
or the company believes that they'd be worse off if you were given a better
offer elsewhere.

If you have no leverage, then it's not in the company's interests to pay you
any more money. It sounds like you've at least queried the lack of a pay-rise,
so some options might be:

1: Demand a pay-rise outright. You're being asked to take on more
responsibility and accountability with a 'promotion'. It's only fair that your
greater sacrifice is rewarded with greater compensation.

2: Negotiate terms of your new contract - additional benefits, or a guaranteed
pay-rise after x amount of time, or something else you'd like.

3: Find an external offer, then use that as a negotiating tool. If they really
want to keep you, they'll find a way to strike a deal. If not, then at least
you can move elsewhere.

Basically this argument that 'you're 100% at your current level, but only 85%
at the next level' is bollocks. If the new role is more responsibility, more
accountability, and generally more demanding and difficult to do well, then
that should be reflected in the compensation. No ifs or buts - anything else
is simply taking advantage of people.

A lot can happen in a year - particularly the stresses of taking on more
responsibility and having to be more accountable - do they really think it's
fair that you should be forced to do this for no extra pay? In a year, what's
stopping them 'promoting' you again to an even more difficult job but where
you're only at '50% of the benchmark'?

It's a load of horse-shit.

------
solarmass
You might view this as a chance to get some experience negotiating. Talk with
them more to see if there is something to sway you more in a direction. The
least to come out of it is a chance to practice a skill that almost everyone
sucks at.

When negotiating show up with a basket of items that can be on the table.
Extra time off (vacation/personal), company paid training, company time to
work on pet projects, travel to conferences, better computer/software, small
budget for discretionary purchases, assistants or interns, business paid
internet to home, etc. They might be truly stuck on the pay issue but there
may be something that can make your job easier given the extra responsibility
or recognize that this is a promotion. Flexibility on what you are willing to
take helps keeps the negotiation conversation going and gives them something
to work with.

Make up a package that suits you and bring it to them (something that really
suits you not something you think they will accept). Have them respond and see
if they come up with any new ideas.

Then go through the rest of the process; pros and cons, selling yourself vs
letting down the company, other issues everyone dwell on to come to a decision
like this.

edit: When putting together your package, include a pay increase even though
they already said it was not possible.

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faet
Just went through this. Initial talks pegged a raise for going from department
A to B at ~12-15%. Increased responsibility, etc. They (my manager, new
manager, and CIO) signed off on it to move me to B. I was told there was no
raise, it was a lateral move. They never told me this prior to moving me and I
didn't sign anything. They wouldn't give me 5% no matter how much I argued. I
found a new job, 30% over what I was making. I gave my 2 weeks, they offered
to match instantly.

------
andrewdubinsky
If your responsibilities increase, and you're charged with more risk of
failure (larger projects, more $$$ at stake to the company), then yes, you
deserve more pay. You're earning it.

It's perfectly reasonable to ask for more money every pay period OR if you
trust them, take it as future raise or bonus (say at end of the year).

You can also ask to have some metrics that will generate a salary commisurate
with the job that determine your final end of year pay. e.g. productivity,
successful launch etc...

If you determine those firm metrics up front and you hit those targets, you
get a bonus, negotiated up front.

In that scenario, they can mitigate their risk that you might not perform in
the 'higher' role.

Most, if not all, business people expect some pushback and a negotiation. It's
not only commonplace, it's a sign of mutual respect.

Don't be afraid to say "Yes I can do that, but I will need X to make that
happen"

~~~
grecy
> Don't be afraid to say "Yes I can do that, but I will need X to make that
> happen"

Should I go in with a dollar amount in mind, or is it OK to just say "I'm
going to need more than your offer".. and see where it goes?

------
oilandwater
My fiancé was recently in a similar position. His salary was at 105% of his
pay grade and he was working a pay grade below his colleagues. He was
interviewing for a position that required relocation and was 2 pay grades
above his own.

He interviewed and got the job and blew them out of the water. Because they
only do pay grade bumps once per year and you can't go above 105% of your
grade's max salary, he was offered the position without a raise.

Relocation to a new city with a slightly higher COL, without a raise. Crazy.
Needless to say, he turned down the position.

Anyways, my point is that you're not alone here. It seems to happen more than
I had realized.

------
JSeymourATL
It's important to know that salary negotiations are best done when you take
time to research and practice. In addition to salary, you can also ask for
additional PTO, Continuing Ed, Industry Conferences/Workshop attendance,
etc...

Here's a good read > [http://www.forbes.com/sites/laurashin/2013/06/26/new-
grads-h...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/laurashin/2013/06/26/new-grads-heres-
how-to-negotiate-your-salary/)

------
codeonfire
Take the "promotion", be sure to put application manager and "promoted to
senior x" on your resume and leave to get your raise after three months. Done.

~~~
cmdrfred
I concur, if all else fails this might be the best strategy. The title might
be valuable to you in the future.

------
kasey_junk
The first advice I'd offer is, find out how much you are actually worth. You
mention that you are overqualified for your current position and that your
options are limited. Both of those things hint at an employment situation that
is in your employers favor. Find out if your current skill set/job market are
actually weighted that way (I'd be surprised if that were true given most dev
job markets currently, but it might be).

Go out into the job market and talk to people who have jobs you are qualified
for and find out how much they make. How does that compare to what you are
making? If there are no people in jobs like that near you that is also a
signal.

Once you know how much you are actually worth, negotiating for that level of
compensation is usually pretty easy.

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pyfish
"I'm in a very remote place, so options are limited."

This is the challenge. If you had other options then you can genuinely use
them as a negotiating tactic. E.g. "I'd love to stay here. The team and
culture is great. But I am also curious about company X and they're offering
me 20% more..."

Can you explore working remotely for someone else, perhaps as a lead engineer?

------
S4M
I'd suggest a combination of tptacek answer (take the so-called promotion and
try to position yourself for a raise in 6 months) while looking for somewhere
else, since the company doesn't seem to be the best place to work as a
programmer, according to what you say.

You'll be able to sell your promotion better that way.

