

Ask HN: Any Hackers in Middle America? - jreilly

I understand the advantages of being on either coast for hackers looking to get involved in a startup but which hackers reside in Middle America and why?<p>Note: I recently moved to Indianapolis and have found it much worse than expected (which was pretty terrible) for anyone interested in web app startup.
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niels_olson
Ignoring the first 14 years of life, I've lived in

1) Kansas City for high school

2) Annapolis for college

3) Rhode Island for six months

4) San Diego for four years

5) Annapolis for two and a half years

6) New Orleans for 5 weeks to start medical school

7a) Lived with my parents for one year in College Station, Texas after Katrina

7b) Attended classes in Houston for that year

8) Back to New Orleans with trips to San Antonio, Houston, College Station,
Washington, DC, Norfolk, Virginia, and New Haven, Connecticut.

If I were going to move to one of those places for the purpose of starting a
start up, first, I wouldn't. Second, I'd prioritize the list like so

1) College Station (couldn't study for all the people talking about setting up
this or that, whether they had set up their S corp, when the fiber would be
laid down, etc). These people are definitely still engineers.

2) San Diego

3) Washington, DC, including Annapolis (home of Wonkette)

4) New Haven (mainly due to proximity to both Boston and NY)

5) Norfolk, VA (lots of military contracts)

6) San Antonio

7) Rhode Island

8) Houston

9) Kansas City

10) New Orleans

Why is New Orleans last? I mean, I'm here, and clearly I've learned more about
programming and system admin here than anywhere. I can't believe I'm saying
it, but there really is an element of old world culture down here that I will
miss when I leave. And it's sort of a city within a city: you meet the people
you know all over the place. And really, I've learned more from the
programmers I've met here than from anyone (except my brother, who lives in
San Antonio). But there are two overwhelming factors working against ever
trying to do a start up here: 1) Who would ever put a server in New Orleans?
2) Tulane dismissed their entire engineering college after the storm. No
hacker I know is here because it's a good place for hacking. In some ways, it
awesome. But there's virtually no one here. I think I've identified all the
XOs in the city, and it adds up to about 6 (it was 5 until someone in Texas
mailed me a spare).

Why would I rank Houston below San Antonio? Houston is much larger, 4th
largest city in the US. Surely there is a greater absolute number of hackers
in Houston. But having lived in Houston, you would be hard-pressed to get me
to move back. It's so huge and spread out and the public transit system is so
non-existent that you end up spending your life in a car. And I get the sense
that most people would rather live in Austin or, if they want to stay close to
the engineering, they go to College Station.

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adammichaelc
I'm a student at BYU in Provo, UT. There are a lot of good hackers out here,
about half of the students stay after they graduate. There are lots of
startups in the area, with top-rated universities around the state; and more
VC's (<http://vSpring.com>, for 1 example) are being formed as the tech
startup environment continues to mature

Provo is "the country's second largest software center," according to
Kiplinger,featuring top employers Novell, Micron Technology and Omniture."

[http://www.kiplinger.com/features/archives/2008/05/2008-best...](http://www.kiplinger.com/features/archives/2008/05/2008-best-
cities-provo.html)

Some of my friends work for <http://EnticeLabs.com> (a software startup in the
HR space), <http://InsideSales.com> is out here, <http://Omniture.com> of
course (founded by BYU students), and there's a growing list of tech bloggers
to keep track of it all (<http://connectblogs.com>)

------
oldgregg
Middle America: Even people who "support" you kind of pat you on the head "oh
that's nice" because they don't really get it.

Get Lucky: You might find a friend or two, and that's all you need to stay
motivated, but don't anything beyond that.

The Wasteland: I lived in Nashville for far too long. People just don't give a
damn about ideas. They don't even think about ideas. They just want to make
some money and hang out. They don't value work and ideas for their own sake,
but only in terms of the financial benefits they bring. That is what slayed
me. Not having people with any kind of vision.

Get out: I would be curious which city you came from before Indy? If you
haven't spent a couple months in sf/seattle/austin/boston/nyc, give it a shot,
you'll never want to go back.

~~~
tdavis
_Middle America: Even people who "support" you kind of pat you on the head "oh
that's nice" because they don't really get it._

Even my parents reacted like this. For a while my Dad thought it was little
more than a pipe dream. I'm sure he secretly thought "What the hell is this
boy doing? He gets back from Afghanistan, decides not to finish college, and
instead moves out to Boston for some Internet... thing? WHERE DID I GO
WRONG?!?!" ;)

He now understands things better and though my parents still don't _really_
understand the entire idea of a "web business" and "venture capitalists"
(which obviously aren't a web-only thing, but they are from Ohio after all...)
and all that rot, they are now more realistic about it and "get" why I did
this... why I _had_ to, even.

The 13 hour stretch from Cincinnati to Boston was easily one of the best days
of my life. Shedding the shackles of mid-western suburbia to embark on an
adventure, having no idea how or when it would end or where it would take me.
I'd never felt so... _free_. Where I came from exhibits quite the contrast; a
society content to live firmly within the lines of what is considered proper,
reasonable and safe.

------
Brushfire
Welcome to Indy. It is pretty bad here. So much so that I'm moving away.

There are lots of companies that call themselves startups around here, perhaps
10% truly are. The most notable one in all the media is ChaCha, and its a
fucking joke if you ask me.

There are good developers/hackers around here, but its not the same as the
west coast.

Either way, welcome to Indy... It can be an OK city if you like Insurance,
Transportation, Conventions and Basketball. :p

~~~
mileszs
I'm in Indy, also. I haven't lived here long. I think that part of the problem
is that there are more startup-oriented people than one would think, but
everyone thinks there are no startup oriented people. (A couple weeks ago I
found out my neighbor in the apartment above me had applied to YC, and is a
HackerNews reader. Tim?)

Perhaps we should have an Indy HN meetup sometime. In what part of Indy are
you (you being anyone in Indy reading this) located?

If you like Ruby, there is a monthly Ruby group meeting at the downtown
library (which is pretty awesome, in my opinion). Search meetup.com for Ruby
and Indianapolis.

Complaining is useless. Maybe we can improve the city's startup scene
ourselves, huh? Who else is going to do it?

 __Edit __: To clarify: the library is awesome. I've only been to last month's
Ruby meeting, so far. I get the feeling many of these sorts of groups are in
their infancy. The Ruby group is sponsored by DealerFlow
(<http://dealerflow.com/>), which is a startup of sorts. The Indianapolis Star
(newspaper) employs some Ruby hackers (Indy.com is currently Rails, for now).
I work at a data center (ChaCha is a customer) writing our custom intranet
apps using Ruby/Rails. There are bright spots in Indy, you just have to dig.

~~~
Brushfire
I Would be down to do a HN meetup as well. I had no idea about the ruby
meeting... which is awesome.

I know at least 2-3 people which might come to either/both depending on
timing/schedules.

Anyone have a good idea for organizing this? Not to re-invent the 'meetup.com'
wheel, but perhaps we could create a mini "HN Fans Meetup" web app, that would
benefit not only people in Indy but also any other state that isnt CA or MA..

Edit: I live near Broad Ripple, so pretty much anywhere that isnt Greenwood or
Westfield is game. Even then, I'll probably come. :)

Brian

~~~
mlLK
Wow. Awesome thread. This is really encouraging to read given that I also
thought I was all alone out here in Indiana. I gotta about one year left to
get my degree at IUPUI, which honestly just feels like a waste of time and
money, but would loved to involved in something local like this. Maybe we can
start a news-letter or something for starters? I dunno, you tell me, just
lemme in. BTW, I'm in Fishers. =/

------
ljlolel
Django (currently the best Python web framework) originated in an innovative
local newspaper in Lawrence, Kansas. A number of other Django hackers reside
there: <http://djangopeople.net/us/ks/>

~~~
sachinag
Yeah, but Adrian did it while he was living in Chicago - he never actually
lived in Lawrence.

Of course, Chicago is in middle America.

~~~
hugs
And Chicago rocks.

------
endlessvoid94
I'm a student at U of I in Champaign, IL. Because of the school, there are a
lot of good hackers here. But they all move far away when they graduate.

------
BigZaphod
I was born, raised, and still live in Iowa and I've worked for several
startups for many years now - they are just all based elsewhere. One was
European, one from the valley, one in Florida, etc. I haven't found a need to
move just for the sake of working in this industry. The Internet is a
wonderful thing. Coffee shops are my office. Total freedom.

------
silentbicycle
I'm from the Grand Rapids, MI area, and develop for a small-ish company
involved with the furniture industry (which is big, locally). There are a
couple tech startups that have come out of here (but I don't particularly care
about startups at the moment, so I can't name them offhand). The area seems to
be culturally favorable toward startups in a way that e.g. the twin cities
area supposedly isn't, though; there are some local businesses such as Amway
that gently encourage an entrepreneurial outlook, and there has been a lot of
money lately going into medical research / biotech stuff here. There are also
several colleges in the area. The Ann Arbor area (East side of the state, by
Detroit) might be good for startups, too.

This ask.metafilter post is about the Kalamazoo, MI area, which is about 50
miles South of here: [http://ask.metafilter.com/105668/Growing-up-no-one-
thinks-th...](http://ask.metafilter.com/105668/Growing-up-no-one-thinks-
theyll-end-up-in-Kalamazoo-do-they) Much of it applies to Southwest Michigan
in general. Not the greatest area tech-wise, but it's quite pretty if you're
outdoorsy (particularly for fishing and kayaking - there are lakes and rivers
all over), the farmer's markets are nice, housing / office space is is not
terribly expensive, etc.

It's also an easy (and cheap!) train ride to Chicago from here, FWIW.

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avcetim
Bought a company out of Purdue. Worked one year with it in West Lafayette.
Moved to Palo Alto for 2.5 years. Moved back to Lafayette, IN. Opened office
in Buenos Aires. Commuted there quarterly. Consulted for a venture firm in Ann
Arbor. And in August I moved to Indianapolis. Why?

Because it is not about starting it or where you start it. Its about
finishing. What do you need to finish? Does Indy have the resources available
and accessible for budding entrepreneurs to close the loop on an idea and
create a business?

I'm looking for help. Yes, I miss the hustle and bustle and wondering if every
person at Starbucks in Palo Alto or Mt View just bagged $1 million from VC.
But at the same time I know where I want to raise my family, where I want to
vacation and where my access to top notch stable talen is - and that is
Indianapolis.

I've built one company. Sold it. Working on another. Have a 9 to 5 that pays
bills and pays health insurance, but my "idle" mind perpetuates. I need help -
did I mention that?

Not sure where the next finish line is, but I'm willing to run the race with
you.

ideas: manufacturing kanban software, logistically distribution AI, virtual
pharmaceutical testing, quick hit web apps, SEO consulting, beer brewing (just
seeing if you are still reading).

~~~
squirrellyj
avcetim, you didn't happen to buy spare parts for manufacturing space shuttle
heat panels? or maybe i'm thinking of something else.

anyway, i'm a grizzled 4.5 year indy tech veteran, work at software company
that went from 70-400 in my tenure and an idea man. i'm seasoned working in a
pressure cooker. interested in talking more if you are - looking to make a
leap.

------
tptacek
I've got a company in Chicago; we're in the process of outgrowing our third
office in 2 years. I can (have, in fact) given a litany of reasons why Chicago
can be a better choice than the bay area, where my last company ran out of.

(Half my company is in Manhattan, but our revenue isn't 50/50).

I have friends in Indy with a thriving, well-funded company in the telephony
space; I'll try to get one of them to chime in with why they moved their
company from NYC metro to Indiana.

Prior to Matasano, I spent 4 years at a VC-funded startup in Ann Arbor, MI ---
Arbor Networks. Being in the middle of nowhere is great for the company and
crappy for the employees; Arbor was the only credible option for a developer
with a mortgage in Ann Arbor, so most of the team was stuck.

~~~
time_management
Why was Ann Arbor "crappy for the employees"? I think it would be a pretty
nice place to live.

~~~
tptacek
Ann Arbor is actually a pretty excellent place to live, especially if you have
kids. They get what I perceive to be a better than average share of touring
bands, both in Ann Arbor and in Detroit. The quality of restaurants is fairly
high. Lots of good cafes. The city and central campus is walkable. Leopold's
and Old Town are good bars, as is Ashley's on the off season. And you get
Zingermans, which is a force of nature.

Housing costs are higher than average (lots of people move to Dexter and Ypsi
to get around this, but then you lose "walkable"), and there isn't a huge
amount of capacity, and you have to deal with students and avoid student
housing.

Great school system. Good parks. Lots of kids.

It's a fine place live. But it's a crappy place to relocate to: if your job
starts to suck, or god forbid you lose it, where else are you going to work?
The University, for 40% of your current salary?

When you're 20, this is not a big deal. You lose your job, you move somewhere
else. When you're 30, you start wanting to own a home. If you have a mortgage,
and you don't have a lot of cushion in your bank account (young people with
houses often don't), you need 3-6 months warning to relocate.

If you have kids, regardless of whether you rent or own, moving is A Big Deal.
I moved back to Chicago instead of NYC because I needed to commit to my family
that I wasn't going to uproot them again.

------
chops
From Wisconsin. I colo my servers out of Chicago. Wisconsin (And indeed most
of middle America) has a pretty cheap cost of living which allowed me to
bootstrap my own startup. Living an hour from my servers for that once-every-
few-months trip for hardware maintenance isn't really a problem.

Overall, it's quite pleasant, aside from Wisconsin being rather boring in the
overall. I'd rather live in Chicago, but my wife's job is here. It's not an
intellectual hot-spot or anything, but it's sufficient for running a business.

And it's a pretty peasant place to raise children whenever we decide to start
squeezing a few out.

*The property taxes such HARD in Wisconsin (particularly the Milwaukee Area).

~~~
chairface
Sounds like you must be in the Milwaukee area. The tech market there looks
like a dream from where I am (live in Appleton, work in Green Bay). All a
matter of perspective, I guess.

------
thorax
I think the primary benefit, if you have a solid team, is the much-reduced
cost of living possible in those areas. This is going to be a competitive
advantage for small startups who increasingly are going to have to get
profitable on their own.

------
raheemm
Why did you move to Indy?

On a separate note, I think hackers who make it big should try to go back to
their small towns or non-silicon valley places, especially if it has a good
university and try to sow the seeds so that that these other places become
hacker friendly. I really admire that Italian guy behind Balsalmiq for going
back to Italy and doing his thing. He is not that big yet, but hackers there
have a reason to stick around and try to make it.

------
paul9290
There are hackers by the ton here and no worries about where you live. You
could find someone here and do a quick project together to see how it goes and
take it from there!

It's cheaper to live out there then in San Fran, NYC or Boston.

Don't let location and the old adage of having to be in the valley stop you
from innovating! IF you make something interesting or that has perceived value
your work will get noticed!

------
tectonic
<http://www.startupwarrior.com> can map some of the Middle America startups.

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centuren
I went to school at Rose Hulman in Terre Haute, IN, where an impressive
concentration of hackers attend. They've even got Rose Ventures
(<http://www.rhventures.org/>), a start up friendly organization (using
appropriately educated students as cheap labor for small companies).

------
pxlpshr
There are two hot beds in the "middle" where you can find strong activity.
Austin, TX and Boulder, CO... I live in Austin for it's low cost of living,
Univ of Texas resources, Texas' strong economy, and no state income tax. The
only thing that bothers is me is that we're in the bible belt... :)

~~~
sachinag
Austin is a fantastic place to start - and SXSW coming in town every year is
huge.

~~~
tptacek
I'm going to call you on that and ask for details on how SXSW is really huge
for a startup. Got an anecdote?

~~~
ordord00
I got one. I started a consulting business (for the purpose of bootstrapping a
startup) just before SXSW last this past year. My partners and I were looking
for a product to build around that time when we were approached by another
business savvy startup that needed a strong development team. We immediately
started working together and now have our first version of the product rolling
out to select Hooters restaurants tomorrow. If we had not gone to SXSW we
would have never run into this other group of guys and stumbled into a really,
really strong product with an amazing business model.

------
mwtalbert
I'm from Dayton OH and I work as a freelance programmer. The worst part is
that it is very hard to find any kind of freelance work that doesn't involve
using Microsoft products. I would love to do some Django projects, but
everyone is hooked on asp.net or php.

------
herdrick
I'm in Spokane, WA for a while and would like to meet up and talk startups.
Anybody else here here?

------
palish
St Louis, MO

Well, sort of. I'm really in O'Fallon, MO, but STL isn't very far away.

~~~
tricky
Des Peres... a suburb of St. Louis. The few people I knew who got VC ended up
moving west. I hope Slicehost stays.

------
rw
Southwestern Ohio. HN is a remarkable service for me.

------
Dilpil
I live in Pittsburgh, which is dangerously close.

