
Battery Swap [video] - chaz
http://www.teslamotors.com/batteryswap
======
Swizec
To me, the most surprising part is: Holy fuck, Audi's have _huge_ petrol
tanks! I usually fill up my reasonably priced car in like a minute or so and
it gets a range of some 700 kilometers on a ~40 liter gas tank.

5 minutes for a petrol stop? That's insane.

~~~
lnanek2
Seemed normal to me. I think my wife's BMW SUV thingie fits like 90 liters.

~~~
Swizec
At 10 gallons per minute, that's still just 2 minutes pumping time. (23
gallons)

Edit: I checked again, he pumps for 2.5 minutes and gets exactly 23 gallons.
So I guess the pump isn't as fast as Elon says on stage. But it still
surprised me because, well, that's about twice as long as what I'm used to :)

~~~
calinet6
This is a ridiculous discussion.

It takes about 3-5 minutes to fill up a large-tank performance car, similar in
features and trim to the Model S. It takes about 2-4 minutes to fill up a
smaller car. It takes less than 2 minutes to "fill up" a Model S.

It takes about 10 minutes if you also use the restroom. Are we going to start
factoring that into the comparison? If not, I'm out.

~~~
leoc
What's probably most relevant is that it would take roughly as long to _half_
-fill the Audi as to replace the Tesla's battery. That's in many ways a fairer
comparison, as the Model S has roughly half the driving range of an Audi, and
(I think) most car gasoline fill-ups aren't from near-empty back to full.

~~~
brianbreslin
The model he fills up looks to be an A8. The A8 fuel economy is around
15-18MPG. So 20 gallon tank only gets 350 mile range on it.

~~~
rallison
Aside from the top end A8s with upgraded engines, they get 18MPG city and
28MPG highway. Simply saying that the A8 gets 15-18MPG is deceptive. So, if we
are talking range, an A8 will get upwards of 560 miles on a tank.

~~~
calinet6
If you're comparing on performance alone, you better get the upgraded Audi to
match the Model S...

------
robomartin
As an engineer I would have preferred to have seen a shot from under the car
showing the actual process. It's unfortunate that they chose to record it from
a hundred feet away.

As for the reality of this swap deal. Well, it sounds like a logistical pain
in the ass. You are required to come back and get your original battery pack
back or pay the difference in cost for the new one. Option number two could be
in the thousands of dollars. That means your trip logistics now have to adjust
to the location of that particular station or else.

Hypothetically, say you travel from LA to SFO and stay there for work for
three months. Will they hold your original battery pack or will it be used to
swap into other cars? Your battery could end-up in Nebraska. Then what? How
many stations will have this tech and when?

Are they, perhaps, going to charge and store your pack and then somehow ship
it to a station near you for reclaiming? If that's the case that would make
for a very expensive power-up.

At the end of the day I fail to see how this might convince skeptics unless
they suck at math and logical reasoning. Sadly this is very much like their
creative financing scheme.

Cool tech but it would have been nice to have gotten far more detail on all
points.

Don't get me wrong. I really like Tesla. I am waiting for the SUV and will
more than likely buy two of them.

~~~
JPKab
I think the business model needs to mimic that of the BetterPlace idea: Users
of battery swapping stations pay a monthly fee, and the battery is seen more
as a commodity which is rented by the user, but owned by the company.

Coming back to get a battery is absurd, and should never happen.

~~~
CamperBob2
Exactly. I've had this debate/argument many times with HN'ers. For some
reason, people around here are unnaturally attached to the idea of owning a
particular car battery.

I've tried to see it from my interlocutors' point of view, but the point still
isn't getting through to me, I'm afraid.

~~~
danielweber
I agree. It strikes me as insane to swap out a ten-to-twenty thousand dollar
piece of your car on any regular basis.

~~~
CamperBob2
Can you elaborate on why you feel that way? Are you mostly concerned about
being unable to gauge the remaining life of a "used" battery that's been in
someone else's car, or do you see it as a pride-of-ownership sort of thing?

~~~
danielweber
Right, if I get someone else's, and later we trade back, what happens if we
each think there is a problem the other caused by (say) pushing it too hard?

If Tesla only loans you a Tesla battery and you have to swap back to yours
that they don't give anywhere else, that could make it manageable.

~~~
CamperBob2
There would never be an opportunity for he-said/she-said arguments to occur.
The battery would have extensive data logging (like the rest of the Tesla
itself) to keep very careful records of how each owner treated it.

Put another way, it would be like leasing the car itself. If you abuse a
leased car severely enough, there's a good chance the dealer will find some
evidence of it when you turn the car in. In return for not having to pay as
much for the battery, and being able to swap it out at any time, you would
have an economic incentive not to discharge it excessively or otherwise
mistreat it.

------
JoeAltmaier
I saw it and wondered "what about dirt"? Dust, gravel, spilled oil, the stray
coke can. Rain (yes it does sometimes rain in California). This is a fine
stage demo, but really? We're talking enormous sealed electric bombs, swapped
out by automated wrench and jack platforms, then a subterranean battery-
storage-and-recharge system. The bigger technology than 'doing it at all' is
'keeping it working under environmental conditions'. Any info about that?

~~~
calinet6
Please, you think they haven't thought of those problems? I'm sure it's a
sealed system designed for real-world use. Otherwise why would they even
create it?

You could say the same about the car itself, but that appears to work just
fine in the elements.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Generally, doing open-heart surgery on a car requires a clean environment, a
careful mechanic, and lots of attention to detail. A subterranean automated
wrench platform is a whole 'nother thing.

~~~
forrestthewoods
There are many words I'd use to describe an auto-shop. Clean is not among
them.

~~~
sliverstorm
A good shop _is_ clean. Not hospital room clean, not eat-off-the-floor clean,
but clean. Floors swept and rinsed, fluids captured in drain pains, etc.

~~~
chockablock
This changing station could well be inside such a tidy and enclosed area at
the Tesla Station.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Its supposed to be drive-thru. If its not, then add opening the garage door
(one coming, one going) and waiting in line to the supposed 90-second swap
time.

~~~
calinet6
These are literally _all_ engineering problems that can and have been solved.
You have no idea what you're talking about as it applies to this situation.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
I am an engineer, and I am a driver. What else do I need to be?

~~~
calinet6
An engineer at Tesla, who has actually worked on the problem, rather than
someone who believes he has enough information to make a judgement on a
problem which you have not studied or thought about for more than a few
minutes. /internetproblems

I'm out, this argument is pointless.

------
quackerhacker
I think the greatest thing to take out of the presentation is...

1\. The Tesla driver does NOT need to get out of the car (screw rain and
bugs).

2\. It IS a reasonable time (no need to sit in a diner and wait)

3\. The mileage limitation is becoming less limiting (no different than making
sure a long trip has a gas station on the way).

~~~
lttlrck
Still need to get out to clean the windshield.

Whats the big deal with getting out anyway?

~~~
quackerhacker
I only brought that up since here where I'm at in NorCal, there were tons of
bugs when I filed my tank recently.

Also if you have kids in the car, it's convenient, it's like asking why are
there drive thru's at restaurants, car washes, and atm machines.

Not sure that #1 applies to everyone...I remember on a road trip, in Oregon
it's against the law for me to fill my OWN tank.

EDIT: Added wife's 2 cents

~~~
carbocation
I actively avoid running low on fuel in New Jersey (compulsory full-service
stations). I don't mind getting out of my car to get gas; the station
attendant is doing nothing of value for me. I'm neither done faster not is the
fuel in some way better than if I filled the car myself.

In contrast, I do see the value in having a battery exchange (it's something
they can do better for me than I could do myself). In that case, not getting
out of the car is still essentialy a non-factor for me, but it does end up
being a tiny perk.

~~~
mkopinsky
Living in NYC, I actively aim to run low on fuel in New Jersey so I can save
$.50 a gallon.

~~~
carbocation
We are both rational people, I see. (I was usually driving from Baltimore to
NYC or destinations further north.)

------
btucker
The swap will cost between $60 & $80[1].

[1] [http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/21/us-tesla-swap-
idUS...](http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/21/us-tesla-swap-
idUSBRE95K07H20130621)

~~~
a-priori
The cost is fine, about what it costs to fill a gas tank, give or take. But
what about this:

" _Drivers who choose to swap must reclaim their original battery on their
return trip or pay the difference in cost for the new pack._ "

That seems... inconvenient.

~~~
calinet6
Oooh... that's not good.

I envisioned it as an insurance-like system: you pay for battery swaps, which
cost X amount, which goes toward the collective maintenance of all the
batteries in the whole system. Thus you don't have to worry about which
battery is yours, or the health of your battery, or anything about the battery
anymore. That simplicity alone makes it worth the price of admission.

If they're worried about specific batteries and specific costs and specific
maintenance tied to you, then I think they system has too many complex details
to make it an easy snap decision. UX won't be as good, not as smooth, and
it'll deter people from using the service... I think they need to go the
collective route to make this work.

~~~
Udo
That's how I saw it as well. The reality is certainly more disappointing. This
would have been a great opportunity to simply take away what I think is the
Tesla's most limiting factor: battery degradation.

------
joshmlewis
On a side note, did you see all the people in the audience taking
pictures/videos? This really bugs me nowadays. I used to be like that but then
I realize a.) I'll probably never watch this and b.) they are more than likely
already capturing this moment and it is guaranteed to be better than my crappy
handheld phone video. Same goes for concerts and other events.

------
prawks
Better Place has been trying to do the same in Israel and Denmark, and is
looking to expand into the US eventually:

[http://www.wbur.org/npr/159355676/dont-charge-that-
electric-...](http://www.wbur.org/npr/159355676/dont-charge-that-electric-car-
battery-just-change-it)

~~~
nicolasp
Better Place actually filed for bankruptcy about a month ago:
[http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/05/anothe...](http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/05/another-
clean-tech-startup-goes-down-better-place-is-bankrupt/276257/)

~~~
prawks
Oops, somehow I missed that. Thanks.

------
rattray
Better Place, which offered batter swapping for electric cars, announced
bankruptcy about a month ago. I wonder if there's any connection? Assuaging
fears that battery swapping will no longer be available? Tesla can now use
technology that had been patented by Better Place?

~~~
umsm
It appears like they were communicating together 4 years ago to allow for
swap-style batteries:

[http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/news/news_detail.cfm/news_id=12...](http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/news/news_detail.cfm/news_id=12374)

------
chiph
Instead of the requirement for the owners to return & pick up their battery,
why not charge $750 yearly for the privilege of swap and forget? If you swap,
it's the luck of the draw whether you get a brand-new battery or a used one.
But Tesla could use that money to cycle in new batteries to the pool, so your
chances of getting a brand-new battery remain decent.

~~~
timdorr
There is no requirement to return the swapped battery. If you want to keep the
new one you can. It works exactly the way you describe.

------
visakanv
Can't wait to see Tesla grow and change the way we think about automobiles, at
a species level.

~~~
mtgx
Elon thinks most cars in production will be all-electric by 2030. I think
that's achievable.

~~~
quackerhacker
I really hope that by 2030, we are utilizing Graphite Super capacitors....with
everything I remember reading, it sounds like a miracle material.

~~~
twism
I think wireless charging built into parking spots or even long stretches of
highways (charging while driving) would be a lot cooler.

~~~
quackerhacker
Does sound great, and reminds me alot about the predictions in Popular
Mechanics.

Unfortunately, the greatest hindrance when it comes to great innovation and
progress (that even Tesla is facing in other states) is politics.

However, I'm long on Tesla and I don't doubt Elon Musk for a second. He has
electrical engineers (Tesla), computer technicians (Paypal...evident in
Tesla's software), ..... and something that I can't believe is in his
network.... rocket scientist (Space X...remember the saying "it's not rocket
science," implies difficulty). To be as successful as he is, I'm sure he has
political backing, it's just unfortunate that in politics, the basis is big
bank takes little bank.

------
spullara
The amazing part is that people without a Tesla think that the battery swap
stuff is anymore than just window dressing. You charge the car at night and it
is full every morning. The times you would use this are vanishingly few. Even
on those occasions, unless I am in a huge, huge hurry, I would still take the
supercharger over this option.

------
swalsh
Between cars sexier than swimsuit models, and owning all the infrastructure to
support them Tesla has a real potential to be a giant company. I don't usually
buy individual stocks, but Tesla keeps looking more lucrative in the long
term. If he can survive in the short term, there's a great future.

~~~
leephillips
I have little doubt. I live in Virginia, one of the states whose government
(or whose county governments) has been conspiring with a cartel of car dealers
to try to forbid Tesla from selling their cars. Something happened, because I
was in a mall yesterday and suddenly found myself next to a Tesla store. Those
cars are stunning in person, inside and out. It was low key, like an Apple
store. I don't usually get excited about cars and things, but if I had had
$86,000 in my pocket I would have bought one. There was an emotional
attraction that was very surprising. It felt like I was looking at a better
future.

~~~
leephillips
This article [0] explains it: what I saw was a showroom; actual purchase must
be completed over the internet.

[0]
[http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142412788732404950457854...](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324049504578541902814606098.html)

------
blackdogie
I would like to know is there a capacity for the number of battery
replacements they system can do ? I guess they recharge your battery and pass
it on to the next person when it's fully charged. How do they insure battery
quality for the replacements. Still a F'ing awesome demo.

~~~
calinet6
This is the key reason you'd want to do this in the first place. It not only
solves the problem of quickly charging the battery, it _solves the problem of
battery quality_ over time!

The mere fact that you have batteries being swapped in and out of cars means
you can systematically track battery health and refurbish batteries that are
getting low, without ever having to bother the customer or affect the
driveability of the car.

The $40 (or so) battery swap fee is not for the electricity or the
infrastructure, it is _an insurance payment_ on the battery itself. You're
paying for the collective maintenance of all Tesla batteries, and in turn
ensuring the health and ease of your own.

The last remaining argument against electric has always been the charge time,
and "oh, but the battery costs $15,000 when it finally dies out"—I always knew
a system of battery swap was the answer to basically everything, and I thought
Tesla was doing it wrong by coming out with a fixed-battery car.

Turns out I was wrong. They're doing everything exactly right.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
So, $40 times 375 == $15000. That, what, 37500 miles? Sounds worse, not
better.

~~~
calinet6
You're going on long trips every single mile?

Otherwise you're charging it at home, at work, or using a supercharger while
you eat lunch.

You may only swap the batt 10 times or less in those 37,500 miles. And you
still get all the battery-quality advantages.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
You've figured it wrong. After 37500 miles of long-distance driving, you have
paid as much as a battery pack. Do you do less than that many long-distance
miles in a normal car lifetime?

~~~
calinet6
The point is that before this, charging (even with a supercharger in ~1 hour)
was the accepted method of filling the battery, and it was free and/or cheap.
That is still a perfectly acceptable method.

Now you also have the choice of swapping, which provides you with a guarantee
of a constantly healthy battery, a fast full charge, and continuous long-
distance capability.

I see your point—if you're doing 37,500 miles of long-distance, you're going
to eventually pay for the battery cost over time. Possibly. But you have the
choice, and it's going to be amortized over so many snap decisions that it's
more like, "the convenience of this is worth $40 to me right now," rather than
thinking of it as the cost of a new battery.

I think it works out, personally. And for most people, charging is a perfectly
acceptable way to drive the car. I think people won't really swap the battery
that often, and when they do it'll be because they need the time benefit, and
that's the value proposition.

For others, they get the same battery-life and battery-health benefits by
swapping only once in a while, or hell, even only when their current battery
dies completely. Basically, everyone wins, and it's still about the same cost
as gas for a 22mpg car, even if you swap 50% of the time. If you swap less
than that, it's cheaper to operate in the same period of time. Simple as that.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Its not at all hard to drive 100 miles in a single trip every week. Visit your
brother at the lake. Drive the spouse to a few events on the weekend. Even
cruise the shoreline.

So that makes about 7 years (pessimistic) to pay as much as for a new battery
pack.

~~~
cdash
Why would you swap your battery in a 100 mile trip when the model s has much
more range than 100 miles on a single charge.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Your new fully charged battery pack, yes. But they degrade. What are you
getting from the station? Can you even tell? Pay $40 and end up with a half-
capacity battery maybe.

So, use a bigger number than 100, it helps some, but not tremendously.

~~~
calinet6
The max Model S range is 265 miles. That's tremendously larger than 100.

------
andyjsong
Does anyone else want to see a closer look of the battery getting swapped out?
I don't think it was necessary to see a dude filling up his car with gas.

------
pbreit
Im assuming this will work on all the Model S's that have already been
produced? Was that mentioned?

~~~
supersystem
"Battery pack swap works with all Tesla Model S cars, past and present. It was
always there."

[https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/347082201596321794](https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/347082201596321794)

------
artificialidiot
Nice demo. Can someone more knowledgeable compare the range of that Audi with
two Teslas there combined at full juice?

~~~
codfrantic
Not entirely sure which Audi that is. Lets assume:
[http://www.autoweek.nl/auto/58469/audi-a8-l-30-tfsi-
quattro](http://www.autoweek.nl/auto/58469/audi-a8-l-30-tfsi-quattro) 90
liters at 9.3 km/liter = 837 km. Compared to Tesla's claimed 426
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S))

------
alainbryden
I wonder if anyone has considered buying a Tesla (free recharges for life),
driving home every day and finding a way to discharge the battery back into
the grid through their meter to negate their home electricity bill.

~~~
gmaslov
This idea might be up there with saving on your electric bill by installing
little turbines on all your water faucets.

~~~
stcredzero
For awhile you could buy a natural gas burning Stirling engine that would
provide electricity while heating your water with the waste heat.

------
joeblau
I never actually realized how much time it took to fill up a tank of gas! The
next step is to get this working via a Knight Rider style truck so you never
even have to stop moving.

~~~
marshray
Well you wouldn't need to pull into the truck to recharge, just dock with some
electrodes on the back. Other cars could daisy-chain off of you.

Or even without a truck, if you weren't going as far, you could sell some of
your energy to other cars behind you.

WCPGW?

------
btbuildem
What I especially liked about this demo is how it antiquated, dated, obsolete
and generally uncool the current refuelling process appears in comparison.

------
brosephius
US Cellular has a program where you can bring your phone to any retail store
and swap out your battery for a charged one. No need to return to pick up your
original. Granted, that's for a $10 battery, but why wouldn't this work for
Tesla? Charging an extra fee is fine too - it's the price for convenience, vs
waiting for a full charge of your own battery pack.

~~~
timdorr
Because its a $10 battery and people don't often take advantage of the deal,
US Cellular is able to easily eat the degradation cost. But on a $40k battery
pack, where swapping happens potentially far more often, that cost is too
significant to ignore. Hence they're charging a reasonable amount for it.

~~~
joezydeco
That $10 battery costs US Cellular $2. A cheap price for some positive P/R and
customer retention.

------
EEGuy
In terms of energy delivery:

    
    
      ( 85 KWhr / 90 sec) * ( 3600 sec / hr ) = 3400 KW = 3.4 MW
    

3.4 megawatts, not bad.

------
joshdance
Cool demo of the technology. Cool technology. But many if not most of electric
car owners will never use it. They only travel to a from work, around town,
into the city. Road trips are few and far in between. It is nice to know you
CAN, not that you will.

~~~
notjustanymike
"...nice to know you can" is exactly the point. You're right about day to day
use; what this does is calm the range anxiety.

------
stcredzero
From this, we might infer that the upcoming lower priced models either use the
same battery pack or will not have the option to swap packs. Or, maybe the
system is designed to accomodate packs of different lengths. The 1st and 3rd
seem the most likely.

------
nexneo
"Faster or Free". Nice!

------
kryten
Considering human nature first, and the assumption that these battery swap
sites will probably be unattended, I wonder how long before someone will work
out how to steal those batteries?

~~~
noir_lord
First why would you make the battery sites unattended anymore than the average
petrol (gas) station is unattended? (particularly in the near term where these
are essentially prototypes).

Secondly here in the UK we have fully automated petrol stations and they have
a low theft rate, high quality CCTV plus the need to put in a credit/debit
card before it'll start pumping makes sure of that.

There are other issues with this technology but theft I can't see becoming a
major one.

~~~
arethuza
Actually, to my surprise, it appears that batteries must be worth stealing.

I was disappointed recently when cycling east out of Edinburgh to see that
pretty much all of the solar powered lights along the path between
Newcraighall and the Queen Margaret University campus have been systematically
robbed. Initially I thought it was vandalism but after looking at a few it was
clear that each one had been broken into for the batteries - nothing else was
damaged. There must be 50+ lights - pretty much all robbed.

The battery packs looked fairly large and as this is a cycle/foot path they
presumably had to use some kind of transport (hand trolley?).

:-(

~~~
gt565k
I'm sure you have nothing to worry about. The batteries will most likely be
securely stored underground, not be visible to everyone. I'm sure they'll have
at least 1 person at the station or at least security cameras.

It's not like you can just steal these batteries and sell them on the black
market. Considering how much they weigh, it's probably near impossible to
replace/install a new battery yourself.

~~~
arethuza
I'm not worried about it at all - just that, from what I have seen, there must
be some black market for industrial sized batteries (maybe for their metal
component?). Whether this impacts on Tesla or not I have no idea - I suspect
not.

------
lttlrck
That was very long winded given that it was promoting speed.

Would an A8 Audi owner pay more to fill up faster? Nope. Because it doesn't
actually take very long.

~~~
codeulike
The point is, an electrical charge can take 30 minutes or so, not that a
petrol stop takes too long.

------
coherentpony
Man, Tesla are just incredible. Some day I'll be able to afford a Model S and
do my part in getting us less dependent on oil.

------
Flemlord
Does anybody know if you can swap a 60kw battery for the 85kw?

------
loceng
Good music at the end of the video.

