
Photographers, Instagrammers: Stop Being So Selfish and Disrespectful - jacobjuul
https://petapixel.com/2019/07/22/photographers-instagrammers-stop-being-so-dmn-selfish-and-disrespectful/
======
DoubleGlazing
I used to volunteer at a heritage railway in Northern Ireland. We had several
old restored trains and we went to great lengths to make the station areas
look authentically old. Naturally photographers loved it.

Most photographers were Okay and respected the rules, but some some just
refused and couldn't handle being called out. For example one rule was do not
get in train cabs, unless by prior arrangement - which involved doing a safety
briefing etc. Still some photographers just did their own thing. Some would
jump on to the footplates of in service steam locomotives to get their shot,
that was dangerous but they didn't care. I was driving a diesel railcar and
had a passenger bang on the cab door so he could take shots from within the
cab. He kept banging for about 10 minutes until we got back to the station and
was then had a go at me for refusing him access.

Another strict rule was no tripods on the platforms. It was dangerous as they
created a tripping hazard and just ruined the atmosphere for other visitors.
But come a sunny day or special event the forest of tripods would be out in
force.

And the worst of all was the ones who would walk off the end of platforms and
setup alongside the railway line. Most wouldn't even bother to wear a hi-viz
vest either. Completely dangerous, but they didn't care they just wanted their
special shot.

These weren't just our rules, many were in place because of laws and insurance
requirements. We didn't want accidents, nor did we want a few visitors to ruin
the atmosphere for others. But when we called called out such people we often
got abuse, which would then be followed up by long rants about how
unaccommodating we were in various photography and railway forums.

The thing is we would allow photographers to access cabs, use tripods and go
alongside the line - so long as they arranged it with us first. And during
special events we would often have an hour set aside specifically for
photographers to go to town. But for some that wasn't enough.

For a lot of heritage railways in the UK and Ireland the misbehavior of some
photographers has got so bad they have a blanket ban on cameras with
remediable lenses.

~~~
tempguy9999
Indirectly related, living in the UK there seems to be a growing culture of
'fuck you' in this country. Not a lack of etiquette or the trivial please and
thank-you, those I can do without, you can still be sweary and abrupt and
still considerate, I mean a fundamental selfishness. It seems to be bigger
among younger people, 20s to 30s, and I will emphasize that it's _uncommon_
and that the great majority of people at any age still behave _very decently_
, but I can feel it.

~~~
J-dawg
Damn, I've noticed it too.

At these point I feel compelled to remember that quote from Socrates about how
the kids are all rude and disrespectful these days. So maybe nothing ever
changes and we're just getting old and grumpy.

But your comment definitely rings true. It's something hard to pin down but I
notice it all the time.

~~~
coldpie
> At these point I feel compelled to remember that quote from Socrates about
> how the kids are all rude and disrespectful these days. So maybe nothing
> ever changes and we're just getting old and grumpy.

It's this. Sorry to break it to you. People also change their behavior _to
you_ based on your age. As a single example, as you age and slow down,
younger, faster folks will be more frequently annoyed with having to dodge
past you on the sidewalk, which will predispose them to be more rude around
you in general. It's a whole complicated host of things, and as you say, it's
been true since the beginning of time.

------
unicornporn
PLEASE change the URL from the blog spam Petapixel site to the photographer's
own!

[https://www.paulreiffer.com/2019/07/photographers-
instagramm...](https://www.paulreiffer.com/2019/07/photographers-
instagrammers-stop-being-so-damn-selfish-and-disrespectful/)

~~~
dhekir
The author's blog says:

 _All site content © Paul Reiffer 2019 and may not be used without permission_

And Petapixel's post credits him, and includes in the end:

 _About the author: (...) This article was also published here [link to author
's blog]._

So, I assume it has been authorized by the author? Does he prefer to have a
link to his own blog directly?

~~~
unicornporn
It has been authorized. The deal works like this: Petapixel pays nothing and
the links in the footnotes hopefully drives some traffic to the photographer's
site and social media. In this game Petapixel is the influencer that asks for
free ice cream in exchange for an Instagram post. Blog spam 2.0.

I don't see why one wouldn't want to link the source and at the same time
support the writer directly instead of hoping a fraction of the readers will
find and follow the links in the footnotes on Petapixel.

~~~
jasode
_> Blog spam 2.0. [...] I don't see why one wouldn't want to link the source
and at the same time support the writer directly_

I wasn't the one who downvoted your comment but in this particular case I
disagree. I wouldn't call this "blog spam". The petapixel post is more like
the author strategically choosing _syndication_ [1].

As a reader of _articles_ , I find the petalpixel url more relevant than the
photographer's own website. After I'm done reading the 1 article, I can see
more "trending" articles on the righthand side to read more.

In contrast, the photographer's website is less relevant because I'm not
interested in buying prints that cost $1100 to $13000 USD or contacting him to
book luxury expeditions.

Just wanted to provide a different perspective and why I think the Petapixel
url is more appropriate for the HN audience. In fact, sending a potential "HN
hug of death" directly to the author's website with virtually no one "adding
to shopping cart" while using up his hosting bandwidth seems to be the
_opposite_ of supporting the photographer.

[1] [https://indieweb.org/POSSE](https://indieweb.org/POSSE)

------
jddj
_" I had a privileged life and I got lucky and I’m unhappy. They say it’s like
the “me generation.” It’s not. The arrogance is taught, or it was cultivated.
It’s self-conscious, that’s what it is; conscious of self. Social media is
just the market’s answer to a generation that demanded to perform. So the
market said, ‘here, perform everything to each other all the time for no
reason.’ It’s prison. It’s horrific. It is performer and audience melded
together. What do we want more than to lay in our bed at the end of the day
and just watch our life as a satisfied audience member?

I know very little about anything, but what I do know is that if you can live
your life without an audience you should do it."_

\- Bo Burnham, monologue from the special 'Make happy'.

------
cgrealy
I honestly expected this article to be another "damn kids, get off my lawn"
post, but reading it, I 100% agree with the author and I'm kinda horrified to
see some of those scenes.

I'm lucky enough to have been to some of those places in the past (Wanaka,
Angkor) and while there were some crowds, it wasn't anything like depicted in
the article.

It's the essential conundrum of tourism. The more people that go to a place,
the more they ruin what made the place special in the first place.

~~~
Deimorz
I live a couple of hours away from Lake Louise, Alberta [1], which is a really
famous photography spot because the lake (and nearby Moraine Lake) have
beautiful bright blue colors. You've almost certainly seen one of them in
Windows wallpapers, /r/EarthPorn, etc.

A few weeks ago, we had a friend from the US visiting, and we decided to take
him there. We hadn't been there in about 10 years now, and it was _insanely_
busy even though it was just a random Wednesday. The road from the town of
Lake Louise up to the actual lake was a traffic jam the entire way (about
5km), and there was no parking at all anywhere near the lake or in the town. I
ended up having to drop my wife and our friend off at the top and drive back
down, then down the highway for almost 10 minutes to the "overflow lot" to
find anywhere to park (and it was almost totally full too, even though it's
huge).

We've talked to some people about it since, and apparently that's just how
busy it is all the time now. The amount of over-tourism to some of these
Instagram-famous places is getting ridiculous, and (like it goes over in the
article) they're just really not able to handle it and it turns into a huge
mess of people behaving selfishly because once they're there, they're _not_
leaving without the photos they want.

[1]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Louise_(Alberta)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Louise_\(Alberta\))

~~~
huehehue
I spent a week at Lake Louis in winter 2017. There was hardly anyone there,
even around the Fairmont! Maybe 5 cars in the huge lot right by the water.
Just a few dolts trying to take selfies in the middle of the frozen lake.

Shame that it's usually swamped but it makes sense, it's a beautiful area.
Maybe try again in the winter?

~~~
spunker540
I was there in the winter once too (to ski), the blue lake was frozen though,
covered in snow, and the entire week the temperatures never exceeded 0
Fahrenheit!

------
jwmoz
Sums up everything I detest about photography and mainly typical
instagrammers. You have the same problem where I am in Bali - idiot
instagrammers using the farmers rice fields for their selfies, whilst the
farmers are breaking their backs.

I wonder how they'd feel if tables were turned - farmers all photographing
young people on their laptops in cafes etc.

~~~
pembrook
On a recent trip to some more remote areas of Southeast Asia, I had this exact
experience.

Since westerners were a rare sight in many of the villages I visited, my
friends and I found ourselves _constantly_ being photographed, with the local
teens and even older adults alike all posing in selfies with us in the
background. I’d say we were photographed roughly 20-30 times per day, for the
the month we were there. I’m not kidding.

I’m sure we looked like clowns to them with our height and big noses. I found
it hilarious and am glad I brought some amusement to these folks.

Side note: I see every person on this thread thinks they aren’t part of the
problem. It’s the _other_ people of course! Tourists complaining about other
tourists has a real irony to it. Rich people getting mad they have to share
the worlds treasures with a growing population of other rich people. Boo boo.
A certain percentage of the population is always going to be assholes, whether
they live in a place or are just visiting. Instagram isn’t the root cause to
why people suck, this too shall pass.

~~~
rofo1
> Instagram isn’t the root cause to why people suck.

That's even more depressing (if true) than this abomination of "social
networks" that we are seeing right now.

But still, _even_ if your point might be true, we should stop giving people
easy ways to be degenerates. There should be repercussions or something, but
good luck codifying it into a law :)

It's a difficult problem.

~~~
speedplane
> this abomination of "social networks" that we are seeing ... we should stop
> giving people easy ways to be degenerates. There should be repercussions or
> something, but good luck codifying it into a law

You don't always need laws to stop bad behavior. Influential social shame and
scorn are often just as effective.

~~~
xiphias2
It would be interesting experiment to link the article as comments in the
lavander selfies.

------
jillesvangurp
This is as old as photography is a thing. I've been to that area in France
many times in my life. My parents actually lived there for a while after they
retired and it used to be our default vacation destination when I was young.
It's been a popular destination for tourists quite long and tourism is a big
part of the local economy. Vincent van Gogh did some selfies there way back
before photography was a thing (with a paint brush). The landscape is pretty
(particularly the lavender fields), the weather is nice, and the food/wine are
awesome. It's a nice place to go. Despite the tourists.

Most of the lavender grown there is used to produce the lavender infused
tourist junk you can find all over that area. It's literally the primary
reason for that farm to be farming the stuff. So, having the odd tourist come
along and taking some photos is maybe a necessary evil.

Tourists misbehaving and spoiling things has been a thing for as long as
tourism has been a thing. The only thing that is worse is locals destroying
their environment to draw in yet more tourists and squeeze every drop of
revenue from them. Many idyllic places have long turned into package tourism
hell with lots of cheap constructions, masses of tourists getting drunk and
stuffing their face with junk food and nothing authentic whatsoever anywhere
in sight. Arles where Van Gogh used to hang out is a good example.

~~~
lm28469
> This is as old as photography is a thing.

It sure is, but modern tech greatly increased the phenomenon. Old tech made
photography way less interesting for narcissistic people. It was hard,
expensive, took time to develop, you most likely had no audience if you
weren't a professional. Now you can take a snapshit on your budget dslr, send
it via bluetooth to your ipad, edit it right there and put it on instagram for
free, some even get paid if they include a watch or a pair of shoe in the
pic...

Sure in the bunch you have a few artistic people, but most of it is the same
exact picture of the same exact thing. All of it for imaginary internet
points. We don't have to watch black mirror anymore we're living in a lame and
slow version of it already. Comparing Van Gogh to that is a bit of a stretch.

------
wellactually
One trick I learned a while ago is that stepping back as far as possible and
taking pictures of people taking pictures is far more interesting than yet
another picture of the same thing.

There are only so many interesting photos of the Mona Lisa. But there are an
infinite number of interesting photos of people maniacally taking photos of
the Mona Lisa. If you're lucky, you might snap a pic of an instagrammer
falling off a cliff, or getting hit by a truck.

~~~
khalilravanna
I have a video of a woman holding a dog out over the edge of the Grand Canyon
and having their friend take a photo, presumably trying to re-enact the Lion
King scene. The level of absurdity on display is much more impressive than yet
another picture of the Grand Canyon.

------
tjr225
It feels more and more that people go to cool places just to prove they have
as many resources as their peers.

Travel and social media is just an extension of "keeping up with the Jones's"
but on a personal identity level- only at the cost of whatever destruction you
are willing to put our planet through, be it that new camera you bought, or
the jet fuel you paid to burn.

I couldn't help but feel guilty on the way to my last international trip- the
homeless do less damage to the planet than I do.

~~~
word-reader
Not nearly enough has been written about "travel as status-seeking". It is for
some a way to portray that you're not materialistic, but still dunk on all the
poors and other outgroup members while blowing thousands of dollars on what is
ultimately a luxury. The sub-category of "travel as wasteful mating signal &
ritual" deserves another novel on top of this.

It didn't help that for several years (though it has thankfully tapered off)
there was a constant stream of "lifestyle" articles proclaiming that mass
tourism "experiences" to capture some photo-totem were the scientifically
confirmed path to happiness.

~~~
J-dawg
Absolutely. It seems to have become popular to value "experiences over things"
as if that's somehow virtuous and makes you better than materialistic people
who just want to accumulate stuff.

It's really just another branch of the same kind of materialism.

The mating signal thing is crazy too. I recently dabbled in dating apps
(hopefully, never again). It seems virtually every woman on there is obsessed
with travel (has "wanderlust", or wants to visit "30 countries before 30", or
"couldn't live without my passport", along with a bunch of photos of them
posing in front of familiar stock-photo tourist sites).

It's almost always like this: an obsession with _travel itself_ , rather than
a passion for a particular culture or region or language or activity that
requires travel. (Which might not really be any better, but I'd identify with
it a lot more easily).

What's driving this? Is it covert (or subconscious) signalling that they want
a mate with the resources to fund this lifestyle? Or simply a feeling that
this is expected of them to seem fun and interesting?

As you said, not nearly enough has been written. I wish a great writer with
the requisite knowledge of culture and psychology would dive into this.

~~~
astura
This is the first time I've ever head the term "wanderlust" and it sincerely
hope its the last.

~~~
J-dawg
My sincere apologies

~~~
arpa
For knowing and using words?

~~~
J-dawg
For using words that make people cringe

------
robocat
So, NZ is on the receiving end of some of this, and here's my opinion:

* Our popular areas are completely overrun during tourist season - I personally think not much fun for tourists or locals (unless a crowd is good e.g. party zones)

* As a local, I can usually find something way better when I travel in NZ that isn't overrun by tourists (e.g. from article, that one lavender farm in France is overrun, but I bet there are plenty nearby that are not).

* I personally love the vibe of the high tourist areas. Generally having tourists is good for nightlife, great for meeting other cultures, and tourists create heaps of economic opportunities (very often in places that would struggle otherwise).

* When travelling overseas, I skip anything "must see" that is in a guide or otherwise recommended (unless you want a tickbox or it is totally off-season). I go to small towns that are in non-tourist areas, and find my own awesome shit.

* When travelling, try to meet locals in a low-density tourist area. You get to see the real country. In reverse, I try to be super welcoming to travellers I meet (I have no problem giving a hitchhiker a room in my home if they pass my sniff test).

* NZ isn't a big country, but there is a huge amount of amazing places to visit everywhere, if you have your own transport and more than a few weeks to travel.

* Try to avoid staying in tourist high density areas. Avoid the easy tourist transport means, avoid the tourist backpackers or hotels.

* Yes, tourists often leave a mess (NZ has a real problem with tourists travelling by vehicle shitting everywhere), but the benefits of tourists really outweigh the downsides IMHO

* I would love NZ to introduce a visa fee per travelling day - that pays for cleaning and pays for free entry to high traffic tourist destinations. We should be striving to attract the high value tourist, and not nickel and dime them once they are here. Tourism can be a Veblen good.

Summary: there are places that are tourist destinations, but there are heaps
of places that tourists don't go to that are incredible.

~~~
Carpetsmoker
> When travelling overseas, I skip anything "must see" that is in a guide or
> otherwise recommended (unless you want a tickbox or it is totally off-
> season). I go to small towns that are in non-tourist areas, and find my own
> awesome shit.

These things are kind of like Paris Hilton or Kim Kardashian: famous for being
famous, not for any actual intrinsic qualities they may have.

There are exceptions. For example Venice is _VERY_ touristic, but also for
good reasons IMHO.

I was actually in Wanaka last December, and yeah, it's a funny looking tree,
but to go out of your way for it? Yeh nah. There were many more memorable/fun
aspects of our Wanaka outing.

------
bobwaycott
Took my teenage sons to Paris for their first trip abroad last week. Even
_they_ were shaking their heads at the ridiculous lengths to which people were
going for a selfish pic:

— wearing wedding dresses into the Sacré Cœur and marching past all the no-
photo signs to the _altar_ for a fake I-got-married-here pic

— posing unnaturally with rapid-change outfits and accessories in the middle
of _street traffic_ on the Pont d’Iéna facing the Eiffel Tower and at l’Arc de
Triomphe, ignoring all the honks and drivers and pedestrians alike yelling at
them, until a police car stopped and turned on its sirens

— couples dragging strollers with infants and toddlers up to the Mona Lisa to
take selfies

— throngs elbowing for position to take a selfie in front of a piece of
art—and then moving on without even spending _a single moment_ contemplating
or appreciating the artwork

We saw a dozen or more such scenes every day. It was awful.

~~~
lm28469
> wearing wedding dresses into the Sacré Cœur and marching past all the no-
> photo signs to the altar for a fake I-got-married-here pic

I was hiking to a remote castle recently, 30 min drive + mud roads remote, I
got there and saw a parked car (there is no parking spots btw), immediately
thought "eh, you got to be lazy to come here by car, half the fun is the
walk". Five min later I stumbled upon a couple in suit/wedding dress and two
photographers, I think I physically cringed at the sight.

------
jrockway
This just sounds like poor law enforcement to me. Stopping your car on the
side of the road is typically legal. Photographing something from public
property is legal in the US. What isn't legal is littering, trespassing, and
theft. If you were there to damage the lavender because you thought that would
be a fun thing to do, that to me is the same as being there because you want
to take a selfie. You should be arrested and charged with trespassing. The
fact that this isn't happening is a failure of law enforcement, not a failure
of social media. (Though my own photographic philosophy is that a picture with
people in it is ruined, I realize that not everyone agrees.)

~~~
JudgeWapner
In addition to this, I wonder if the farmers could set up props to discourage
photography and sabotage the shots. Ugly banners, balloons, drones with
ribbons, blaring offensive music, signs with semi-offensive verbiage. Or boxes
of rotten fish to stink up the side of the road.

~~~
siphon22
Thats the equivalent of asking girls to dress unsexily to prevent
harrassment/rape. Those farmers have a right to maintain their beautiful and
appealing environments without having them messed with by tourists and other
idiots.

~~~
JudgeWapner
They make money from selling lavender. Not from having pretty fields. If the
police won't do their jobs, you can take matters into your own hands.

~~~
siphon22
Why buy lavender if you can just be a photographer/instagrammer and steal
them? Pretty fields are what brings potential buyers to their farm in the
first place, no?

~~~
dkersten
Have you ever travelled to a farm because its pretty to buy their lavender? If
I buy lavender, its because I want lavender, not because the farm is pretty
(and Ill probably buy it from a shop and not the farm directly)

------
40acres
I went to what can only be described as an "Instagram trap" earlier this
month. It was the Rose Mansion exhibit (?) in NYC, I can only describe it as a
mix between a fun house where the rooms are explicitly designed for Instagram
and a cut rate wine tour. [0]

I sense a market for a consulting firm that specializes in managing
photoshoots at locations like the one in the post explicitly for Instagram.

0:
[https://www.rosewinemansion.com/about-2019](https://www.rosewinemansion.com/about-2019)

~~~
OkGoDoIt
I feel like the San Francisco ice cream museum is like that. It’s ostensibly a
museum about ice cream, but it’s basically just a whole bunch of really
weirdly designed rooms that people take selfies in and post all over
Instagram, Tinder, Facebook, everywhere. Apparently they made quite a bit of
money doing it.

------
OkGoDoIt
[https://instagram.com/insta_repeat](https://instagram.com/insta_repeat)

And here is the end result. This account basically takes Instagram photos of
the exact same location/style and groups them together. It’s kind of mind
blowing!

~~~
joshwa
My personal favorite in this vein:
[https://thekinspiracy.tumblr.com/](https://thekinspiracy.tumblr.com/)

------
astura
I used to think photography was an interesting hobby, not for me, however.

Now, after the proliferation of cheap DSLRs I now think photography is the
most obnoxious thing ever. Now ever asshole imagines themselves as a
photographer and acts like a dick to get that one picture. I was out with a
wannabe photographer friend and watched her climb over a safety barrier and
dangerously close to the edge of a cliff in order to take a photo. I was
shocked.

This one made me so sad:
[https://www.instagram.com/publiclandshateyou/p/Bu_qnY7hjhQ/?...](https://www.instagram.com/publiclandshateyou/p/Bu_qnY7hjhQ/?hl=en)

~~~
missjellyfish
As someone who‘s doing photography as a side business - so much this.
Actually, let‘s add „I‘ve got a DSLR, so I have to produce good photos“ to the
list. In reality though most of them have no sense for the moment or good
composition.

And the worst part is: “my $relative has a DSLR and he’d shoot for free, do it
for free and you’ll get exposure”.

Sigh.

~~~
la_barba
Interesting comment to read on HN where a lot of people want their software to
be free too. :) Just sayin'..

But yeah, I get your point.. its super annoying when people do those things or
when they say "you must have a nice camera" instead of complimenting your
skills.

------
larrywright
I just returned from a trip to Washington D.C. I’m an amateur photographer[1]
- I don’t get paid for my photos, I do it for fun. One thing I noticed in D.C.
when visiting monuments and places like the Library of Congress (which is a
stunning building inside), was the sheer number of people standing around
taking selfies in these places. In confined spaces (Library of Congress) it
was difficult to take pictures because there were so many people taking
selfies. And not just a single one - it’s almost always a series of them in
various poses and facial expressions. It was quite annoying.

I tried to temper my annoyance by reminding myself that they have just as much
right to be there as I do - these are public places after all. What stood out
though is the behavior described in this article, which is the complete focus
on themselves and no awareness or concern for the location or the people
around them who might also want to take a picture - or even just enjoy the
place they’re visiting. I didn’t see anything like the destruction and theft
described in this article, but that’s likely just because of the nature of the
places I visited (lots of armed guards).

I worry that we’re allowing (and reinforcing) some horrible behaviors, and
wonder what kind of people they will grow up to be. Narcissism is a harsh
label, but I don’t have a better one.

[1] [http://larrywright.me/photo/](http://larrywright.me/photo/)

------
tayo42
Ive been curious, without knowing how to prove it or not, If social
media/instagram is really a significant contributor to over tourism? I guess I
have a hard believing its not coincidental.

People have always taken pictures around the world. But recently travel is
becoming a lot cheaper, a lot safer, developing countries are developing so
they are easier to get to, its easier to get to far corners of the world,
chinese are traveling more, americans are pushing off buying homes and having
kids until later in life leaving them free to travel. The world is just more
populated now too.

~~~
drivingmenuts
Probably something to do with the ubiquity of cameras these days, as well.
Anecdatally, I remember when my grandfather bought a Canon A-1 in the late 70s
and it was A BIG DEAL. While lots of people had Polaroids and other low-level
stuff, this was the equivalent of a prosumer camera, at the time and it was
expensive for the time, too.

The slides he took were for his own amusement, and the family’s, just like
most other people’s photos. They weren’t shared instantly with the world. That
was very much a professional’s conceit.

Now, everyone with a phone has a camera that’s very high resolution and
usually internet-connected. The cameras keep getting better (for no good
reason that I can tell) while the phone itself remains relatively unchanged.
Sure, it can run more apps, so it’s now pretty much a personal computer that
incidentally includes a phone,, but because we feel the need to be always
connected, we’ve always got a camera.

Consequently, everyone feels the need to overshare every moment of their life,
as if they will somehow become important, or that we’ll magically care. It’s
too cheap and it’s too easy to spam the world with the beautiful moments that,
incidentally, are just like everyone else’s beautiful moments.

My grandfather had a probably almost-unique collection of all 250-plus
courthouses of Texas at the time, without competing with anyone to get them,
just because he thought it was a neat idea. Now, there are probably hundreds
of that collection, produced by ridulously competitive amateurs who want to be
Instagram-famous.

~~~
ghaff
I remember when people would joke about the Japanese taking so many pictures.
Today many, perhaps most, put that level of photo snapping to shame.

------
CPLX
I mean this type of photography is a style right? Like the more people do it
the more cliched it will get and then it will go out of style right? Every
generation wants to do something new.

~~~
siphon22
We need to make it so __cringe __to behave like this that people will stop
doing it naturally to distance themselves from _those people_. I already look
down on people like this myself. People in the West do not utilize societal
shaming enough I feel, so much focus on individuality that people are forced
to tolerate that some people are terrible humans because otherwise they'll be
on the side of NAZIS or whatever for wanting people to be civilized.

I think it's already trending that way, but the effects are slow to arrival.

~~~
rofo1
> People in the West do not utilize societal shaming enough I feel,

Critical point. Only when people start to think about this topic, they'll
realize that shaming was invented for a reason, and a great reason: it works.
It kept order into civilizations for millennia.

~~~
Nasrudith
Really that is a very idealized version of social shaming. It sucks and hasn't
been focused where there is any actual utility but instead the stupidest
fucking most injust things. A young woman has a naked body under her clothes!
Shame and forced resignation from pagents regardless of source. The twisted
values of shame culture include major "not unless you get caught"
fundamentally. To the point of absurdities where in Japan it is shameful to be
identified drunk despite getting smashed being the company norm. And that is
before getting into the sociopaths behind these social order ideals.

Really fuck social order and fuck social shaming - may they die and stay dead
and buried and we have to deal with petty problems instead of this bullshit.

------
bump64
My personal favorite is this instagram profile making fun of influencers
taking photos and videos in the famous Rue Crémieux street in Paris.

[https://www.instagram.com/clubcremieux/](https://www.instagram.com/clubcremieux/)

~~~
astura
Do these people not realize that they are at someone's house, not a god damn
movie set??? How could one be so obnoxious?

~~~
yifanl
Instagram has made any setting a movie set, that's the implied value of all
these pictures.

------
aphextim
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Instagramreality/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Instagramreality/)
is one of my favorite subreddits when I need to be reminded about all this
craziness.

------
crazygringo
People will be people (unfortunately). But what I don't understand is:

1) Why doesn't the farmer call the police on them for trespassing? And post
clear warning signs explaining the penalties... as farmers and other people
with large areas of private property have been doing forever

2) And/or make money off it -- charge $$$ for exclusive use of the field for
30 min, do your photoshoot, trample all the lavender you need because you'll
be paying top dollar for it

Farmers deal with all sorts of pests threatening their crops, this is just one
more. And they're businesspeople. I'm certainly not defending people's bad
behavior, but this situation in particular seems pretty manageable.

------
Bouncingsoul1
Some months back when this was posted
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17944934](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17944934)
, I thought about doing a POC about this topic. You could scrap a lot about
tourist data from state/regional/communal websites and make travel suggestion
for the least tourist plagued locations in a given area. The problem in the
long run is the more successfull you are, the worse the experience will be, in
short term tourism/vacation is to crowded currently to get it flying.

~~~
Nasrudith
That would probably be better on tourist economies if it took off and had
influence at least - a more even level of flow as tourists choose between
their preferences is more sustainable and less likely to have nasty "invested
to handle the flow better and they are gone" shocks.

------
mlang23
> But this was crazy. And rude. And selfish. And utterly, disgustingly,
> narcissistic.

That pretty much sums up 2/3 of our society. Dealing with stupidity of the
masses will be one of the bigger challenges of the future.

~~~
KuhlMensch
I think of it more as a continuing challenge. There is just bigger groups of
us now.

------
whack
> _I’ve seen photographers edge further and further into the water – ruining
> the view for others, shouting at kayakers who “dare” to exercise their right
> to paddle around the lake while drifting into their shot_

It's ironic that the author is defending the rights of kayakers to do what
they enjoy in the lake, while simultaneously berating photographers and
"instagrammers" for "ruining the view for others" with their mere presence.

The article does raise many good points. Fences, property-rights, and rules
should be respected. But much of the article comes across as paternalistic
virtue signaling. Anyone's choice of hobbies or livelihood can be
psychoanalyzed as being selfish or narcissistic or parasitic. The author loves
to shame instagrammers for being driven by "likes" and "attention", and I'm
sure someone else out there would love to shame the author for profiting off
of nature instead of toiling as an unknown environmental activist. Unless
you're a psychologist or mental health professional, perhaps we should all
just let others enjoy life in any way they want, without feeling the need to
judge and condescend to them.

~~~
JangoSteve
I'm not sure the author was berating the photographers for ruining the view
for others. I read it as revealing the hypocrisy of the photographers shouting
at kayakers for doing the thing they were currently doing themselves.

~~~
whack
> _From a beach with a few locals walking through each evening, to now, what
> has become a honeypot for crowds of photographers getting in the way every
> “golden hour”..._

> _I’ve seen photographers edge further and further into the water – ruining
> the view for others..._

> _For instagrammers, and wannabe “influencers” – learn that there are people
> on the planet who might not be interested in YOU. They might want to see the
> view without you in it. They might even want to just sit and enjoy a scene
> without a camera (shock!). While it’s easy to get wrapped up in this stuff
> online, they have every right (or maybe even more) to enjoy a place without
> it being ruined by your need to be “liked” by people you’ll never meet._

It sure sounds like he's berating photographers for ruining the view for
others.

------
ashelmire
For places like this, we need to enforce trespassing laws. Use it as revenue
to pay for more enforcement of those laws. For public spaces ruined by the
photographers, pass laws requiring licenses to photograph and distribute it
(where possible). Make other rules for public spaces to keep them useful to
the public for things other than photography (no mounting a camera within 50
feet of the water, for example).

------
julius_set
I am disgusted by these people. Absolutely revolted. I understand this is a
subjective statement but something inside me recoils at these people,

~~~
speedplane
> I am disgusted by these people. Absolutely revolted. I understand this is a
> subjective statement but something inside me recoils at these people,

I understand how many can feel that way, but what if these photographers were
genuinely interested in the underlying work. They did put in the effort to
travel all the way to a farm to check it out. They took pictures of it in
appreciation. Maybe they did not know how to properly respect the people and
the place, maybe they should be taught rather than chastised.

~~~
VvR-Ox
That sounds like a lame excuse - sorry.

Every child knows that you don't do whatever you want on the grounds of other
people, in their gardens and homes.

Stop being jerks and just ask people politely if it's ok for them that you
take a picture.

Also I don't get how they all need a picture of the same place.

In the end all they do is to deprive themselves from real happiness and the
possibility to just enjoy the moment. Their POV changes in the moment they see
the world through the lens of their cam and they don't even seem to get this.

~~~
TeMPOraL
> _Also I don 't get how they all need a picture of the same place._

It's because they don't care about the place, they care that _they 've_ been
there. This is a problem as old as photography; I remember watching tourists
on my daily commute coming to the same spots, day in, day out, and shooting
the exact same photos of the exact same buildings from the exact same angles.
All I could think of is, "your exact photo is on Flickr already in 10
different copies, why are you doing this?!". The rise of social media
(Instagram in particular) only made this worse.

~~~
VvR-Ox
That's true.

I think they are harming themselves by doing this because they can't really
enjoy the moment and just "be" there.

I rarely take pictures because I always think "there's already awesome pics of
this on the net" and also when I'm back I don't want to overwhelm people who
want to see them with a collection of "just 1000 photos of me in front of the
Louvre".

Of course I'd love to have a picture of me standing in front of Taj Mahal but
in the end it's not so important. The pictures people haven't seen yet are
much more interesting (to me), especially places where tourists don't want to
be or perspectives they shouldn't see.

E.g. the "Golden Beaches" in Bulgaria. Stay in the tourist zone and you'll
have the typical beaches, hotels, bars etc. But the exciting part of the area
is when you leave this "paradise" and see the massive destruction tourism, the
hotel lobby etc. bring to nature and the people.

Seeing these scenes changed my mind and I realized I'd never want to do "all
inclusive" at the places where all people go again.

I think people need more stable personalities so they can break out of their
"hive-mind-thinking" and start sensing their environment and enjoying
themselves without the constant feedback of "the hive". Behaviour like this
reminds me of the Lemmings and the Borg.

------
sejtnjir
I think this will be a passing craze.

Younger instagram users are much less interested in showing off perfect shots
than their millennial predecessors.

------
rofo1
> These are people so obsessed with their own sense of self-importance for the
> sake of a few instant “likes” on their social media profile that they find
> it perfectly acceptable to trespass, steal, disrespect the workers and their
> land – all in the name of “influencing”.

...

>They’d damaged the land. They’d stolen the owner’s products. They’d ruined
the fields that had been tended to with hard work for months. But even the
farmer’s final attempt to put and end to it wasn’t enough – they wanted more.

Oh, can't wait the day when we are going to look back at "social media"
platforms and go: "what the hell were these creatures thinking?"

I really think social media is one of the worst tools for the human psyche
ever conceived. It's a net loss for sure.

It's addictive and also messes up with dopamine generation. Not to mention the
vanity/envy aspect of it: people comparing to selective representation of
other people. It's remarkably insane when you think about it.

Maybe it's best not to think about it :)

------
sideshowb
Part of me thinks this is nothing new. Sure, social media has changed the
flavour slightly but tourist honeypots have existed since forever... and in a
way, they work. A huge number of people go to the Lake District and don't
leave Ambleside; Ambleside prospers with its cafes and outdoor shops and the
rest of the area is _slightly_ less overrun for it. This was the case long
before we even had digital cameras.

You'd think social media would disperse the honeypots as people spread out to
emulate photos scattered over a greater number of locations, yet I gather from
national park authorities etc it has the opposite effect entirely.

If we're not going to change human nature then I think that implies the
opposite policy on "ticketed locations" mentioned by the OP: _do_ charge money
at honeypot spots, and reinvest it to repair the damage.

------
atemerev
Is this a recent phenomenon? I traveled to Valensole two years ago, and
haven’t seen anything like this. There were some people taking Instagram
shots, of course, myself included, but nothing disrespectful, and certainly
nothing like that. What’s even the point of being the “influencer”, are people
looking up to it?

~~~
marcodave
> What’s even the point of being the “influencer”, are people looking up to
> it?

Economically, you might get "famous" enough for small brands to send you free
stuff to show in the photos, in the long run they want to win the recognition
lottery and get more and more famous. It's very self-referencing

------
dustinmoris
Wow the last photo of Angor Wat is shocking. I actually feel sick and
disgusted by looking at this photo. I travelled South East Asia extensively in
2012 when Instagram was not a thing (yet) and honestly this place was almost
empty and one of the most magical things I've ever seen. If I was to go there
today and this would be my experience then I would have never gotten the
travel bug. What's wrong with these people, honestly the majority of people
are just dumb sheep, no self respect, no dignity, no respect for our planet
and other living beings. Nobody with a tiny bit of self respect would put
themselves into this crowd just for a narcissistic Instagram photo.

~~~
nativespecies
So your experience is ok since it happened in 2012. Got it.

------
sarcasmOrTears
this new mindset that you need to spend your money on experiences instead of
things is beginning to show its ugly side. I wonder if the carbon and
environmental footprint is better or worse than buying goods

------
werber
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugly_American_(pejorative)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugly_American_\(pejorative\))

Whenever I see this kinda stuff, I can't help but think of the "Ugly American"
trope and how it seems like it's an insanely (and desperate to be) visible
minority of the whole world now

~~~
smacktoward
Neal Stephenson saw this coming nearly 20 years ago, in his essay _In the
Beginning... Was the Command Line_
([https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Beginning..._Was_the_...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Beginning..._Was_the_Command_Line))

From the section titled “The Interface Culture”:

 _We are free and prosperous because we have inherited political and values
systems fabricated by a particular set of eighteenth-century intellectuals who
happened to get it right. But we have lost touch with those intellectuals, and
with anything like intellectualism, even to the point of not reading books any
more, though we are literate. We seem much more comfortable with propagating
those values to future generations nonverbally, through a process of being
steeped in media. Apparently this actually works to some degree, for police in
many lands are now complaining that local arrestees are insisting on having
their Miranda rights read to them, just like perps in American TV cop shows.
When it’s explained to them that they are in a different country, where those
rights do not exist, they become outraged. Starsky and Hutch reruns, dubbed
into diverse languages, may turn out, in the long run, to be a greater force
for human rights than the Declaration of Independence._

 _A huge, rich, nuclear-tipped culture that propagates its core values through
media steepage seems like a bad idea. There is an obvious risk of running
astray here. Words are the only immutable medium we have, which is why they
are the vehicle of choice for extremely important concepts like the Ten
Commandments, the Koran, and the Bill of Rights. Unless the messages conveyed
by our media are somehow pegged to a fixed, written set of precepts, they can
wander all over the place and possibly dump loads of crap into people’s
minds._

 _Orlando used to have a military installation called McCoy Air Force Base,
with long runways from which B-52s could take off and reach Cuba, or just
about anywhere else, with loads of nukes. But now McCoy has been scrapped and
repurposed. It has been absorbed into Orlando’s civilian airport. The long
runways are being used to land 747-loads of tourists from Brazil, Italy,
Russia and Japan, so that they can come to Disney World and steep in our media
for a while._

 _To traditional cultures, especially word-based ones such as Islam, this is
infinitely more threatening than the B-52s ever were._

~~~
Arn_Thor
> Words are the only immutable medium we have, which is why they are the
> vehicle of choice for extremely important concepts like the Ten
> Commandments, the Koran, and the Bill of Rights.

Uh, certainly also maybe perhaps because written words were the only medium at
the time? I imagine video and audio recordings will be just as important for
future historians as writings have been to our time's historians

------
FraKtus
We have the same in Belgium in the Haller Bos (Bois de Halle). People walk on
the flowers, pick them.

[https://www.halle.be/node/61837](https://www.halle.be/node/61837)

Each year there are more restrictions to enter the wood while the flowers are
there.

------
roadbeats
Not sure if it has English subtitles, but there is a documentary about a
family who works in one of those famous rice terraces tourists fill up for
taking photos:
[https://youtube.com/watch?v=FyPIqCDocxY](https://youtube.com/watch?v=FyPIqCDocxY)

------
dsfyu404ed
As someone who grew up in an area where tourism was the only substantial
industry I have zero sympathy (for the first world areas affected by this at
least). When all the people complaining about idiots inconveniencing everyone
taking pictures go on vacation they do the same damn thing.

------
9nGQluzmnq3M
Contrarian opinion: this sounds like a business opportunity to me. I'm pretty
sure an enterprising lavender farmer could make a lot more money in season by
charging for access to their fields, taking a deposit to cover damage, and
selling lavender bunches as props for $20 a pop.

~~~
donretag
Sounds good, but in the end the Instagrammers will instead charge the farmers
for "exposure".

------
jddj
In Buenos Aires there's a beautiful old cemetery called La Recoleta.

One of my most jarring and bizarre memories from my time in Argentina was
watching as hundreds of tourists took smiling/sultry pouting/peace sign
selfies with the various graves and mausoleums.

------
un-devmox
I had a similar experience taking some relatives to Yellowstone last week. I
was actually impressed that my 17 yo niece and 21 yo nephew absorbed the views
primarily with their eyes and not there phones. As for the hoards of others...

------
pard68
Grew up in one of those picturesque Maine villages you see, this is definitely
getting worse as time goes on, but it is hard to put a stop to this because it
also brings in lots of money to otherwise impoverished areas.

~~~
sprainedankles
Which village, if you don't mind my asking (fellow Mainer here)? I grew up in
a beautiful area that has never (and probably won't) seen the effects of
tourism due to accessibility (read: The County), but have since moved to
Southern Maine.

Maine has done a pretty good job of keeping tourism in check (I would say)
despite being labeled the Vacationland, but I wonder if that has to do with
our state having a more "plain" natural beauty? For example, Mount Katahdin is
obviously impressive for the area, but it is nowhere near as dramatic as
mountains out West. Then again, perhaps the strict enforcement of Baxter's
vision for a forever "wild Maine" has served us well.

Or perhaps we are fortunate to have fairly brutal winters that give us a break
from those who don't snowmobile!

~~~
pard68
Stonington!

------
Rainymood
Maybe this is an out of the box solution but ... start charging an entry fee
for the Lavender fields and designated areas to pose in so the real fields
don't get trampled?

------
rmrfrmrf
Remember this the next time a photographer cries about "theft" of their
intellectual property on social media.

------
ptah
instagram needs to be shut down tbh. it is damaging society in myriad ways

~~~
nativespecies
....what

------
tonymet
Editorials like this make is sound like society has shared values.

------
rhacker
Same thing is happening in Monument Valley Utah/AZ... It's like an entire
generation just discovered that the earth has some beautiful areas and they're
coming to ruin it all.

~~~
la_barba
Not to dismiss your point, but there was also a generation of people who
wanted to mine the grand canyon. I think that as people we still have the same
psychological trappings as we did before. But I do think we're becoming more
conscious. Certainly, if you asked any of those lavender tramplers about
setting of dynamite in that area to unearth copper or whatnot, they'd probably
not support such an idea.

------
cryptos
I wonder if a CO2 tax would fix that, too...

------
AJ007
This is a fixable problem. AR lenses so there is no longer a benefit to being
somewhere just for the photo.

------
sneak
No one was harmed by any of the things that the author is complaining about.

