
Roomba's Next Big Step Is Selling Maps of Your Home to the Highest Bidder - ourmandave
http://gizmodo.com/roombas-next-big-step-is-selling-maps-of-your-home-to-t-1797187829
======
andrewstuart2
This smells like cheap and irresponsible journalism. For one, the CEO is
quoted as saying “There’s an entire ecosystem of things and services that the
smart home can deliver once you have a rich map of the home _that the user has
allowed to be shared.”_ Further evidence is given in the form of part of the
TOS where you essentially agree that if iRobot goes under, the buyer will get
all the data. Obviously.

That's one blatant ignoring of the CEO's full statement, and one unfounded
misinterpretation of the terms of service. Hardly justification for both the
title and the premise of the article.

~~~
jjcm
That's the problem with journalism today though. With ad based revenue
platforms, a view is a view. The content itself doesn't matter, only a
headline that makes views does.

I really want to see a subscription system that rewards quality over just
views.

~~~
IgorPartola
Get the New York Times? No seriously, there are long form publications that
provide what you want with the model you want. I like Gizmodo. They do some
interesting pieces once in a while. But I don't see myself paying $5/month for
it.

I am not a fan of advertising as a model for the web. It sucks in terms of UX,
and it sucks in terms of motivations for the content providers. This is how we
get WikiHow and W3School, and Wikipedia clones. Problem is that it's a model
that's simply more profitable than anything else we've tried so far. And you
can shame people into paying or try to coax them all you want, but it just
won't make as much money.

~~~
andrewstuart2
This is one of the reasons I gladly pay for a LWN subscription. I'd love to
see more journalism like that, where insiders are paid a small fee to write
articles about subjects they're already experts on.

But then again, my interests are much less in world events or pop culture, and
much more in science and engineering, where expertise is more easily measured.

------
mabbo
Roombas do not (currently) remember your home's layout between cleaning
sessions.

I have a top-end Roomba bought last year. Every time it runs, it starts by
finding a wall and then carefully learning the spacial layout of my home. It
then efficiently cleans the entire area, not going over any spot more than
once if it can avoid it. Then it goes back to it's home and _forgets
everything in learned forever_.

You can sell the layout to my home to anyone you like Roomba, just for god's
sake, have your damn robot _remember_ that layout between cleaning sessions.

~~~
stevula
If you dropped it off in a different room (or house) while it was turned off,
how would it know where it was next time it was turned it on?

~~~
dpark
Try to follow the route and switch to mapping mode if it doesn't match?

Honestly I don't know why the Roombas don't just trace the perimeter. The
semi-random probing they do seems inefficient to me. But then I don't know
anything about the algorithm they're using, so maybe I'm missing something.

~~~
Merad
I have a top-end Roomba 980 like the GP is referring to. They don't use random
exploration. When you start a cleaning cycle, it begins working in a back and
forth cleaning pattern of parallel lines. When it runs out of room to perform
the back and forth lines, it moves to a place where there's a "hole" in its
map. That may just be a corner behind a chair, or it could be a doorway to a
different room. It basically repeats this process until it has filled in all
the holes and built a full map of the room, level, or whatever area you're
letting it vacuum.

The algorithm definitely isn't perfect. It might clean half of the room where
it starts, then wander around and clean most of the house before making its
way back to finish that room. Still it seems to work well overall. What really
fascinates me is how the algorithm and SLAM mapping gives it very familiar
behavioral patterns. For example when it's coming back into a room that it's
already visited, it might drive just inside the room, pause, "look" side to
side (panning the camera to find landmarks it recognizes), then continue on.

~~~
chillingeffect
> cameras

wow I didn't know these have cameras.

I wonder if they'll sell/subpoena the video data as well as the floor plans. I
wonder how well secured it is and what the extent of punishment for poorly
interpreted imagery will be.

~~~
Merad
It's only the top few models. It's using some kind of image analysis to
recognize landmarks and help it navigate.

The video would have to be processed onboard, because wifi isn't require for
the Roomba to work. I'll have to look at my router's logs for the Roomba, it
should be pretty obvious if it's doing any amount of video uploading.

------
aphextron
But Amazon is _definitely_ not doing anything sketchy with that always-
connected camera and microphone sitting in your living room.

~~~
untog
Seems like an especially left field whataboutism. Why can't we be concerned
about both?

~~~
aphextron
The article specifically mentions Echo. My point was that the prevailing
sentiment on HN seems (to me) that Echo is a good, useful product, not an evil
spying device.

~~~
untog
Really? Because almost every thread I've about it has a discussion on the
creepy factor associated.

------
tareqak
Other submissions: 1\.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14842679](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14842679)

[http://gizmodo.com/roombas-next-big-step-is-selling-maps-
of-...](http://gizmodo.com/roombas-next-big-step-is-selling-maps-of-your-home-
to-t-1797187829/amp)

 _Roomba 's Next Big Step Is Selling Maps of Your Home to the Highest Bidder_

2\.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14842705](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14842705)
(this thread)

[http://gizmodo.com/roombas-next-big-step-is-selling-maps-
of-...](http://gizmodo.com/roombas-next-big-step-is-selling-maps-of-your-home-
to-t-1797187829)

 _Roomba 's Next Big Step Is Selling Maps of Your Home to the Highest Bidder_

3\.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14842822](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14842822)

[https://www.theverge.com/2017/7/24/16021610/irobot-roomba-
ho...](https://www.theverge.com/2017/7/24/16021610/irobot-roomba-homa-map-
data-sale)

 _Roombas have been busy mapping our homes, and now that data could be up for
sale_

Other sources: [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-irobot-strategy-
idUSKBN1A...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-irobot-strategy-
idUSKBN1A91A5)

 _Roomba vacuum maker iRobot betting big on the 'smart' home_

(Techmeme headline for the above: _Roomba vacuum maker iRobot hopes to sell
its users ' floor plan data, seeking deals with Amazon, Apple, and Alphabet_
(I couldn't submit this Reuters source to HN).

Edit: formatting

~~~
Anatidae
As a blind cat burglar, this is really helpful.

On a side note, anyone know of any other appliance manufacturers selling
mapping data for customer's walls. Specifically locations of room safes? Just
curious.

~~~
protomyth
I’m sure it will be of great interest when the company that sold me my
internet connected garage door opener starts selling my open times.

------
FridgeSeal
Are we safe from no one trying to sell us to companies?

I guess everything that's remotely network capable these days should be kept
off the internet until it proves that it needs to - how do you ensure that
it's not sending extra data back home without manually intercepting and
inspecting all it's network traffic when it does connect?

~~~
jasonkostempski
"until it proves that it needs to"

The "need" is arbitrarily added to all kinds of things already. If the thing
makes money collecting data, it will be required to operate.

------
freehunter
I have a Roomba and in no way does it have any capability to connect to any
type of network, Internet or otherwise. Is this only on the high end models?
I've never used the app because mine doesn't offer it, does the app require
sign-in so they can know who you are?

But I mean... of all the privacy invading pieces of tech I can think of, a
representation of the floorplan of my house might be the least concerning.
Considering I'm typing this within range of at least a dozen potentially
always-on microphones and cameras, and have no idea where my keystrokes are
_actually_ going.

~~~
Merad
All current Roomba models [1] have wifi and app support. The app requires an
account because it's the type where even when you're at home on the same
network as the Roomba, the app doesn't actually talk directly to the Roomba,
but goes out through iRobot's servers. Not sure about other models, but on the
980 that I have, the app is necessary to use the full functionality.

[1]: [http://www.irobot.com/For-the-
Home/Vacuuming/Roomba.aspx#Com...](http://www.irobot.com/For-the-
Home/Vacuuming/Roomba.aspx#Comparison-Chart)

~~~
tom_mellior
> the app doesn't actually talk directly to the Roomba, but goes out through
> iRobot's servers

That alone is reason enough not to buy one.

------
d-sc
As much as I don't care for my data being sold like this, a lot of it is out
there already. Public tax records contain many differnt bits of information
about your house: room count, square footage, age, etc. Additionally, private
companies typically track this information for entire apartment complexes
including actual room layouts.

Source: work in real estate industry. Apartment floor plans are typically used
to determine competitive pricing.

------
nhebb
In my neighborhood, most of the houses were built from a fixed number of
designs sourced from an architecture firm. Wouldn't the floor plans be the IP
of the architect?

~~~
meesterdude
Good question. IANAL, but i would imagine the floor plan is public record. If,
someone were to build a new building using a previous designed floor plan, I
can see how that could be an issue. But that's not even whats going on here.
they aren't using the ACTUAL plans that the architect drafted - they're making
their own map, which is akin to taking photos of the space. Like how record
companies can own a recording but not a song. Where you get it from matters.

But, not a lawyer. Curious what others make of it.

~~~
dpark
Public records might have the structural drawings of your house is recent.
They probably won't have full layouts because the codes don't care. Depending
on where you live and how diligent they have been about digitizing the
records, though, there may not even be structural drawings on file.

Source: Annoyed when I realized my house (re)built in 2009 has no
architectural drawings.

------
yakult
Nonesense, obviously the money is in selling recorded conversations to the
highest bidder. Identifying spending patterns via image recognition of pets
and babies would be up there also.

------
foobarhonest
> This smells like cheap and irresponsible journalism

Maybe, but it is still true and something most users probably won't pay
attention to but probably should.

"This is all part of the larger quest for a few major companies to hoover up
every bit of data about you that they can. Now, they want to know all about
your living space"

------
shostack
Does anyone know if Neato has this in their terms?

TBH, if I could access a map of my home from Neato, and sketch problem areas I
want it to remap, that would be very valuable for me. Or if I could sketch
boundaries in software for it to ignore vs. using tape, that would be way
better.

------
Overtonwindow
My home is my office, and it's constantly changing. Furniture gets moved every
week, and there's always...stuff laying everywhere. I don't imagine a map of
my home being very useful.

------
z3t4
I find the "random" cleaning to give the best results though. E.g going all
over the place vs mapping.

------
rodgerd
"Don't leave money of the table." "Maximise shareholder value!"

Thanks, capitalism!

~~~
protomyth
Capitalism is supposed to be an equitable trade for BOTH sides of the
transaction. I am also quite certain a socialist government would be happy to
have this information.

~~~
DarkKomunalec
As opposed to all those capitalist governments that are trying their best to
preserve the privacy of their citizens?

And good job on defending what capitalism is _supposed_ to be, rather than
what it _is_.

~~~
valuearb
Because East German citizens had so much privacy.

~~~
DarkKomunalec
So, when you say 'socialism', you of course don't mean all the social
democracies where taxes are used for welfare (literally a small dose of 'from
each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs')?

And when you say capitalism, you of course don't mean China or Russia, with
their terrible human rights records, despite their economies being very
capitalistic? You mean the USA, right? But all the spying and surveillance it
does (along with many other countries - the UK comes to mind) doesn't matter,
because _East Germany_ was worse.

No, those aren't _true_ capitalist countries. What you mean is some Randian
utopia of Free Markets and Free People that will totally exist, as soon as you
find a perfect, incorruptible government to maintain it.

Or perhaps surveillance, repression, and social policies are somewhat
orthogonal.

------
jjcm
Here's a question (ignoring the fact the CEO said it's opt-in): what danger
does this actually pose?

