
And now, some smoking guns (or “part two of angels that charge”) - malvosenior
http://calacanis.com/2009/10/13/and-now-some-smoking-guns-or-part-two-of-angels-that-charge/
======
jasonmcalacanis
Thanks for posting this.

We're going to have these people on this Friday's This Week in Startups at 1PM
pacific. <http://bit.ly/mW2zR>

If you know anyone from Keiretsu Forum who had a GOOD or bad experience we're
looking to have them on the show.

~~~
qeorge
Unshortened URL: <http://thisweekinstartups.com/> (no need for bit.ly)

Enjoyed the post, keep it up.

------
grellas
This is very helpful information for entrepreneurs, and I commend the poster
for his courage, but I think it is highly risky from a legal standpoint.

The use of phrases such as "bogus forums" can readily be attacked, and (in my
long experience in the law) it is precisely those who are most unscrupulous
who are quickest to seize on technical points to try to bludgeon you in the
courts. Does "bogus" connote fraudulent? Is there nothing at all of value that
is being offered? Maybe not. But using this type of phrase puts the one who is
otherwise exposing questionable practices in the position of potentially
having to prove that the forums are _nothing but_ frauds, which might be hard
to prove.

Yes, free speech is involved but an attack on someone's manner of making a
living sets one up for "libel per se" charges, which can be tough to fight.
With the web as the forum, the claimant can also shop forums to find the most
sympathetic court available.

I have fought fights like this before, and I know what they involve. They need
to be fought in a way that is _effective_ and not merely righteous. The latter
is not bad but can be undermined if you give your opponent gratuitous
ammunition with which to attack. It is my belief that the same fight can be
waged at a slightly more philosophical level and remain completely effective.
Therefore, the risks being taken by naming specific parties and using phrases
such as "bogus forums" will only serve to weaken an otherwise compelling
position being advanced by a strong proponent of a good cause.

At this point, whatever has been done has been done and the fight will proceed
legally at the level just described. It will take a lot to fend off the
vicious attacks to come. I wish the author well in his endeavor. He is on to
something and I hope he can handle it effectively. The entrepreneurial
community will certainly benefit from his efforts.

~~~
netsp
I agree that this can probably be just as effective while avoiding making
claims that may not stand up in court (eg, "bogus forums," & "nothing but
frauds") but avoiding naming firms and keeping it all high level and
philosophical is not as effective, even if it is probably safer.

If you have a legal background, I think you might want to see if you can find
precedents in the talent (modelling, acting, script-writing) fields.

------
alttab
I love this - people are waking up and challenging the old guard which at
least to me seems to be motivated by profit at any cost. We see this with
corporations, government, and even web businesses at every level.

We have spawned a new generation of idealism where profit is a side effect of
actually giving a shit about our customers. What a concept.

~~~
jacquesm
The 'old' guard in VC land definitely isn't in on it, I see it more as a bunch
of highway robbers calling themselves VCs, making money of people that are
somehow desperate.

------
workhorse
Kudos to Jason Calacanis.

I'll be spreading the world through my channels.

~~~
workhorse
*word

------
marze
From a potential investor's point of view, would you want to invest in a
startup that spent scarce funds on a scheme like those mentioned here instead
of adding value in another way?

------
lawrence
I always get a little nervous when third parties, whether it be the government
or folks like Jason Calacanis, try and tell companies how they should price
their products.

I don't want anyone telling me how to price my company's products.

Pay per pitch is sleazy. But it's not illegal.

(not talking about the deceptive pay per pitch, that's a different story)

~~~
jasonmcalacanis
No one said it was illegal... oh wait, actually someone said it might be....
but that's besides the point!

The issue here is the free market, and my email newsletter/blog are part of
the "free market forces."

The testimonials from folks who felt ripped off, or worked at Keiretsu, are
also free-market forces.

In fact, so is this thread.

so, don't worry about me telling them the price because they can ignore me!

~~~
dantheman
Agreed, reputation is one of the most important aspects of the free market.
It's expensive to build and can be destroyed quickly.

------
bonsaitree
Um, it's none of YOUR business how these firms run their deals. Not that I
find the practice equitable, nor a lawsuit meritorious on the available
information, but if that's THEIR business model and the founders are willing
to fork over the cash, that's THEIR CHOICE.

If you really want to FIX this, offer up a viable structured alternative to
aggressively pursue their business. It's easy to throw spit-balls from the
back of the classroom. I'd expect much more from somebody who's been down that
road--on both sides of the table.

Instead this whole affair comes across, in gestalt, as a series of public ad
hominem attacks on other parties and a plea for personal attention in the
minimus.

If your ambition is to be a "shock podcaster" and garner a Dave Winer-esque
reputation, you're, sadly, headed down the right track. You complained about
being publicly "berated" at Gnomedex '07. Kettle. Pot. Black.

~~~
jasonmcalacanis
Actually, if you look at my first email I suggested that we would do an "open
angel forum" if they didn't drop the fees.

So, I'm fairly down with the concept of creating something competitive! I
mean, that's what I did when I got upset about the DEMO conference charing
startups $20k for six minutes on stage!

~~~
netsp
Out of curiosity, do you have a business model in mind for this?

IE, if not for the Crusade (or Jihad), do you have a reason for running an
alternative?

~~~
jasonmcalacanis
Very simple:

1\. do it in a free or cheap location 2\. ask a law firm to buy breakfast 3\.
use open source software/posterous to host the website 4\. don't be a greedy
f@#$%k and take $6k from startups desperate to raise capital.

best jcal :-p

