

How technical does a start-up founder have to be? - ryanagraves

Does a start-up founder have to be a "hacker"? Can the business major who loves the web and has a good idea about a web based business succeed in the cut throat, competition heavy web space? Or, does one, in order to succeed in a start-up have to spend day in and day out coding in order to really understand how to differentiate and how to survive in the web start-up space? Lets here what you think...
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kyro
I had the same question about a year back, and I'm sure some of you will
remember it. I saw myself as the 'business major [I don't have a major] who
loved the web and had a good idea about a web based business.' And there's one
thing I found out through posting on web bulletins, posting flyers around
school, and trying to network - it's extremely difficult to find a hacker
cofounder who is willing to jump on board. How could I, a non-hacker, possibly
play an equal contributory role has my hacker cofounder? And furthermor, how
could I accurately convey my ideas coming from a frame of mind completely
different from that of a hacker? I realized that if any sort of relationship
was forged for the sake of having a team, these issues would soon arise in the
future and cause much bigger problems, and would ultimately hinder the success
and growth of a startup. So I started to learn how to hack, and it literally
changed the way I think about ideas. I try to conceptualize how I can tackle
problems with code, and how feasible it'd be to do so. And it's this newly
found understanding that will help me play a more integral role in my team,
and allow me to communicate with hacker cofounders on a leveled playing field.
Even two of the Auctomatic founders eventually learned how to hack.

At the beginning, I was irritated by the response I got here. People told me
left and right that business people are useless and that if you don't know how
to hack you can't go anywhere. But, after getting my feet wet and thinking
about it, I understand where they were coming from.

So I guess a business guy can in fact lead a successful startup. But do I
think that business savvy guy who knows a bit about hacking will have
significantly higher chances of succeeding in the web world? Yes.

~~~
tdavis
"How could I, a non-hacker, possibly play an equal contributory role has my
hacker cofounder?"

As the hacker co-founder in a shop of two people, let me tell you, you can
play an equal role. Okay, so my partner doesn't setup the servers or write the
code or design the site; I do all of that. So what does he do? _Everything
else_. Ask most any hacker and they'll give you a laundry list of things they
hate doing when it comes to starting/running a business or working on a
project of any kind. In fact, it's usually easier just to ask them what they
_do_ want to do; the answer will almost always be "code." In my case I add
design and a couple other items to the list, but I digress.

You're the one out there networking and making deals, finding advertisers,
building a list of beta testers, writing up details on the competition,
handling the finances and the ho-hum paperwork, handling the
customers/visitors/whoever, and _much_ more. My co-founder has been invaluable
to the business (I hope he stays invaluable, too, so he never gets paid ;). He
describes his job as essentially making sure I am never bothered. I'll take
that over another hacker any day of the week because with another hacker I'd
end up getting stuck doing at least half of all that stuff that is no fun,
very time consuming and highly distracting (in a job where small distractions
can cost huge time).

And (briefly!) on the subject of conveying ideas: Hackers may have different
mindsets, but unless your idea involves conveying something in code, you're
not going to notice too many issues. My co-founder has come up with a lot of
ideas and not once did I not understand him... unless he started talking about
differences between LLCs and C corps and crazy talk like that.

So, in summary, if you are "just a business guy," don't give up. Sooner or
later most of those one-man-band hacker founders are going to realize turning
you down wasn't such a great idea; they needed you after all and now _they_
have to search for a CEO.

EDIT: And I'd like to point out that we got into YC this summer, too. I'll
leave you to guess who wrote most of the application, did 99% of the talking
in the interview and who had the market knowledge to pitch the idea in the
first place. (hint: it wasn't this guy!)

~~~
fallentimes
Tom, thanks for the kind words. Our team has been fortunate in the fact that
after Tom moved away in high school, he decided to become a programming
genius. To add a little bit to what Tom said...

Because of the nature of our project, numerous parties and moving parts are
involved. For better or for worse, there's lot of "business stuff" to do on a
daily basis. Looking at some of the other YC projects, I could definitely
understand the advantages of having two hackers or one hacker and one
designer. However, for our project, our skills are extremely complimentary of
each other and well aligned with the work that needs to be done.

One caveat, I have built a few simple websites from scratch before and taken a
couple programming classes so it's not like I know nothing about programming
although Tom would probably argue otherwise :).

~~~
Harj
_I have built a few simple websites from scratch before and taken a couple
programming classes_

imo that's the perfect level of tech knowledge for a non-technical founder

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dennykmiu
For the last ten months, I have been working on my most recent startup,
<http://www.LoveMyTool.com>, which in time will become an online marketplace-
of-choice for network monitoring tools (sniffers, IDS, etc.). The business
model is old fashioned (no Google ad here). My vision is that we will become a
virtual tradeshow (a zero carbon footprint version of Interop or NXTcom, which
are million dollar physical events).

In the future, our revenues will come strictly from participating vendors
(same as if they were buying a booth, but now they rent the front page for an
hour). We are a long way from that. For now, I am concentrating on building a
community.

To guide me towards success, I am following the advises given at the Startup
School by Paul Graham, Paul Buchheit and David Heinemeier Hansson, which can
be summarized as follows …

“Make something people want … don’t ignore [people’s] advice … listen [mainly]
to yourself … don’t worry too much about money … the secret to making money …
is to ask for it.”

Notice that there is nothing here that says that you have to be a hacker. It
just says that you have to find a problem that is worth solving, keep solving
it while listening to your instinct and when you are ready, just ask the
customers to pay.

In fact, I believe there are two worst things that you can do to ensure
failure of a startup which are heavy reliance on VC money and heavy reliance
on technology. The focus should be on customer needs. Hacking is just another
means to the end.

In my case, I use no special software and therefore have no need for a
"hacker" as a co-Founder. Every piece of software that I am using are off-the-
shelf (Typepad, iLife suite, Slideshare, Youtube, Blip.tv, Omnisio, etc.) and
I have managed to build a site with 350 visitors a day and rising (who are
interested in buying products that I am showcasing and have spending authority
from tens of thousands to millions). And I did the whole thing for $180 ($150
for TypePad and $30 for URL's).

Anything is possible here. So if you have a killer idea on how to make money
on the web, then go for it. Hackers will follow; they always do.

~~~
tptacek
Denny, I'm a bit confused. What you've built for $180 is a group blog, with a
somewhat heavy emphasis on talking to vendors. I'm in your space --- quite
directly --- and with an order of magnitude more visitors, I have _no idea_
how I'd go about monetizing my site.

I guess it's true that a smart businessperson can create value out of content
--- look at John Batelle, Federated Media, and bOING bOING. But:

* They actually did have to build stuff

* It took them years and years and years to get there

* The content they've created is probably harder and riskier to build than software.

I'm not disputing the validity of your idea, just the assertion that you're
likely to make money with a business plan and $180.

~~~
dennykmiu
tptacek - thank you for the comments.

One other lesson that we learned from Startup School is that "advice=limited
experience+generalization" so clearly I am not trying to give advice here. But
I am trying to answer the original premise of the post which is that "can
anyone start a startup without having a hacker as a co-founder?" And my answer
is yes and what I tried to do is equate over-reliance on technology with over-
reliance on money. In other words, if the original question were "can anyone
start a startup without having $500K from a VC as seed money?", the answer
would have been yes as well.

Keep in mind that I am talking about the initial stage of a startup. In other
words, I am talking about going from nothing to something. Once you are done
with the initial concept stage and you have a working model of your product
and services and you have a workable business model, then everything changes
and you are going from something to something more, which is very different
again (in other words, I will need a lot more than $180).

What I have learned is that success of a startup requires both vision and
peripheral vision. Having lots of money and lots of technical talents in the
beginning help a great deal in terms of executing your vision, but
unfortunately they tend to cloud your peripheral vision. In other words, if
you have too much money in the beginning, you are going to spend it pushing
the market as opposed to finding an opportunity to get the market to pull you.
And by the same token, having a strong "hacker" as a co-Founder also can have
the same unintended consequence which is that you are going to hit every nail
with the same hammer (in the first year of my previous startup, I had to
change out the technical team when it was clear that our initial business idea
was incorrect).

Again, I am not trying to offer advice here (by generalizing my own limited
experience). I am merely trying to answer the original question and my answer
is a resounding yes. Anything is possible ... entrepreneurship is the great
equalizer.

Thanks again.

------
inovica
I majored in Business (with marketing) in 1994. The one thing I learned from
business school was problem solving. When I accidentally became involved in
software, and more later web apps, it was obvious to me that I needed to learn
to code at least to the point where I could converse about it. This ended up
being one of the best things I've done and I garnered more respect from the
team by doing so. My not being able to code was an obstacle - a problem - that
was overcome by rolling my sleeves up. And guess what, I enjoyed it and still
do to this day.

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maxklein
If you're no hacker, be good with photoshop so you can mockup what you have in
mind. Then outsource the hell out of your product, and micromanage it to
death. I've done this, and I have a nicely working website, and absolutely no
idea how the code that runs it looks like.

~~~
yan
This all sounds fabulous until you start putting out fires and possibly start
to have troubles with scaling.

Not to downplay your development choice, but it's always nice to be intimate
with what you rely on.

~~~
maxklein
Depends on your market. If you ever get to the point where you need to scale
your software significantly, you will have people throwing money at you, and
you can hire good people. Till then, russian hackers do an excellent job at
SQL optimisation.

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len
My perspective is that of a person that focuses on the business side and no
longer programs but has in the past:

The thing you do in entrepreneurship is essentially 'solve problems' day in
and day out. You are constantly resource constrained so you must figure out
how to maximize efficiency , whatever that may be in each respective case.

You have an idea (let's assume it is a good one for simplicities sake) but
lack the ability to implement. This naturally brings up the question of how to
implement - you can learn to do it yourself or hire someone to do it for you.
Hire may mean trading equity for the "co-founder's" time or compensating them
monetarily. If you cannot afford to hire (try elance, guru, etc) you are left
with trading equity. This means that you must now convince someone that you
are competent to direct the implementation process ("you bring something to
the table").

This is meant to be a pretty straightforward explanation because your question
is vague in the sense that the situation you allude to has multitudes of
variables.

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brion
“Does a start up founder have to be a hacker”- the answer is, NO. The purpose
of the founder is to execute. The secret to a start up isn’t the “original
idea”…it’s whether or not your founder can execute - never mind the idea. If
the founder can’t code a page is he resourceful enough to “execute” and find
someone who can…etc.

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colortone
It depends on what else you bring to the table

If you have biz dev connections that will get deals made, successful
experience marketing or fundraising, a design or creative background,
experience in the vertical your product serves, etc, these all can add, um,
invaluable value to a company

~~~
Frocer
Exactly. PayPal would have never succeeded without Peter Thiels' ability to
close fundings left and right.

However, I do think one of the founders should be technically savvy, and it
doesn't hurt to have the business guy to know some hacking either

~~~
hs
yep but it would be bleeding without the security algorithm

------
aristus
This probably sounds fatuous, but hacking experience will make you a better
business person in the same way that a daily column will make you a better
writer. The reason is that while we are farting about with bits & bytes and
star trek jokes, what we're really doing is translating human imagination into
a system that is not capable of self-delusion. It does not believe, it does
not miss details, it blows up at the smallest inconsistency. Dealing with that
is unspeakably frustrating, but it trains you to think more clearly about how
systems, any system, actually function. If you are really paying attention you
can start using that capacity in other parts of life. The closest business-
school type classes to this training would be probably logistics and
quantitative analysis

~~~
bigtoga
So then I would assume you would also argue that hackers need to know the
business side of things for the same reason - yes? Either way, you're choosing
a strategy of "Strengthen your weaknesses." There are other strategies like
"Play to your strengths" that a lot of people will advocate very strongly.
Personally I cannot think to advocate one and only one strategy; I think you
have to fit with the dynamics at hand and go with the optimal strategy at the
moment.

~~~
aristus
I'm a generalist, so I suppose that's right. But I am saying something a
little more than that.

Computer Science is the first serious attempt to study process as a concept in
and of itself. It's the study of how to do things, and how to learn how to do
things. A lot of things in life, from business planning to washing a sinkfull
of dishes, can be done better if you apply a little process analysis.

------
hooande
In all my years working for small to mid sized startups, I have never seen a
situation where two people founded a company based on one being the "tech guy"
and the other one being "the business guy".

Rvery startup I've worked for was founded by one or two technical people and
one person who raised the money. Generally the situation was that someone who
had been working for years decided to start a company with a friend and used
the reputation and contacts he'd built up over the years to raise money to
finance it.

I've never worked at a company with more than 10 employees where there was a
non-technical founder who didn't provide access to capital.

With that being said, I think as the "business guy" there will be a lot of
pressure on you to work extra hard and really produce (especially if you
aren't providing the financing). It's usually not enough to have "good ideas"
or "the idea"...you should be bringing something so valuable to the table that
the other founder(s) says "Thank god this guy is here!"

It almost seems that a business guy will have to put in more effort than a
hacker as a founder. The hacker doesn't have to be an exceptional hacker...he
merely has to produce a working website. However since the business guy
doesn't have a lot of measurable output, he will have to work extra hard to
show that he's carrying his weight.

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adamgries
I come from the realm of web dev.

In this realm, not knowing how to code will make sure somebody else usually
has you by the balls. While an extreme micromanaging alpha type can probably
get others to do the job and do it acceptably, the level of work and
commitment from employee-developers is hard to maintain.

While I agree there is room for non-technical founders who bring a lot to the
table (like Thiel) the benefits such a person brings (like fund-raising and
market strategy) are often only realizable when the product already exists
(i.e. created by the technical people). Therefore it is questionable whether
it makes sense to bring biz-only people on board at an early stage unless fund
raising and specific biz dev is an essential part of the biz strategy.

Finally, as technical and associated biz changes occur more rapidly, an
inability to understand the core technologies will leave more and more biz-
only people crippled. Consequently, unless one is close to technical people
who share a common vision, my recommendation to anybody interested in the web
space is to gain real experience with the relevant technical tools.

------
merrick33
Technical enough to learn to program.

The majority of what is considered a web startup these days, appearing on
TechCrunch and other such blogs, do not require the complete skills a CS major
brings to the table.

If you are going to give it a go, and still in school, consider taking a
couple of c++ courses or python if offered. Of course if you are a self
starter you can jump right into python - diveintopython.org.

I learned on my own after getting my econ degree at UCLA, and I found that
programming for the web is trivial compared to the c++ coursework I took.

I spent many days and nights over a few years learning how to program, setup
servers, model my web apps with postgres, manage postfix mail servers etc. But
these days, a good framework will get you off the ground and solve most of
your database modeling. And a good hosting company will take care of your
sysadmin stuff.

So a good co-founder would be someone who compliments your newfound skills and
who is the opposite of you - a risk taker or conservative. This should help
you better evaluate the difficult decisions that come up.

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jk4930
Of course it is possible for a business major to succeed in the web. There are
real-world examples of business majors who won't get into the way of hackers
(or techies in general) and give them room to think and play and listen to
their feedback and suggestions.

There are also enough who just outsource all technical stuff and only care
about their very own 'core competencies'.

But in "feelings" of probability:

Mindset, theoretical background knowledge, and experience are essential to
understand what is (not only technically) possible and to see what parts need
more effort than others and why. To know hacker culture one should live it,
otherwise one won't feel the way hackers do. That doesn't mean that you need
to code every day. Thinking about problems and trying your solutions is more
important. Couple this with (formal) business knowledge and I am pretty sure
an entirely new world unfolds with options unknown before that will outcompete
the pure business major in most cases.

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azharcs
What happens when Business Majors enter Web is, they end up reinventing wheel
most of the times and most of them are not visionaries. They don't know what
is possible and what is not. They come from a place where they think Web as
place to make money. But what they don't understand is "no amount of money can
buy you audience or position". Some start up from someone's bedroom will
change the the whole dynamics of business, look what happened to Music
Business. The clash between Business Majors and Hackers is like a Clash
between Old Age Media and New Age Open Media. Hackers were pissed with the way
Business Majors handled the business with their bureaucracy and high-
handedness and hence they started a parallel industry by inventing Internet
and a Industry which could thrive upon ideas and openness. This is a Hackers
world.

------
michael_dorfman
To state the obvious: Not every founder needs to be a "hacker", but every tech
start-up needs one "hacker" co-founder.

In other words: yes, the business major who loves the web and has a good idea
can succeed-- if he has a "hacker" as a co-founder.

~~~
bigtoga
I don't know why this is obvious. I certainly don't agree. History has seen
way more successful startups started by "business people" than those founded
by hackers. Don't get so myopic that you when you think "startup" you only
think about cool things on the internet...

~~~
michael_dorfman
Take a look again-- I said "tech startup". And I maintain that any startup
that is focused on "tech" (internet or otherwise) needs somebody who is a true
"hacker" on the appropriate "tech".

------
daniel-cussen
If you're doing a web startup, it helps to know how to hack, in the same sense
that if you're a football coach, it helps to know how to play football.

I realize it's a somewhat flawed analogy, but I like to think of startups that
way.

------
hsu
If you're talking about a one-person startup, you need to have some level of
technical understanding. In order to turn your idea into a business, you need
someone to implement the idea, and that's where the hacker(s) come in. A
trusted technical person is your first choice. You can also try to hire
contractors to implement for you, but without technical know-how, how will you
be able to judge if they're any good?

------
bigtoga
To OP: If you and I were talking, I would turn the question back on you and
ask you: What do you think? If you are the business major in your post, do you
think you can? What would it take to make it work? What would make it fail?

I firmly believe the adage that "What you think about, you bring about."
Another that comes to mind is "Whatever you believe, you can achieve." I think
it's all in the prepwork...

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richardw
Here's a great post from Joel about exactly that. It doesn't start off like
it's answering the question, but it does:

<http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/06/16.html>

"Watching non-programmers trying to run software companies is like
watching..." and you'll have to read the article to find out :)

~~~
tptacek
He's talking about software companies, not businesses on the web in general.
Moreover, he's demonstrably wrong: many successful software companies _are_
run by people without developer backgrounds.

------
DaniFong
For a tech startup, that is, a startup that wins by technology, and not, say,
location, connections, or a powerful sales force, one should be at least
technical enough to inspire and befriend a highly technical person. In other
words, one should be 'hacker compatible'.

------
yourabi
It depends on the team, and how tight they are.

A business type alone is full of fail, but a business type with a strong
technical partner (emphasis on partner, not employee) could work (if the
communication is good enough).

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mikkom
At least one of the co-founders should be in a "computer wizard" level. But
almost every startup also needs a business guy.

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aseever
Programming is one of the easier aspects of founding a successful web startup.
Perhaps there is greener grass elsewhere?

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edw519
1\. "loves the web"

2\. "has a good idea"

3\. "cut throat, competition heavy web space"

4\. "spend day in and day out coding"

5\. "how to survive in the web start-up space"

Nowhere do you mention "building something people want".

Nowhere do you mention the "utter joy of manifesting something out of
nothing".

These 2 things are so overwhelmingly important that they really do overshadow
everything else, like the 5 details you do mention.

If I wasn't nice, I'd say, "You just don't get it."

But since I am nice, I'll simply say, "You just answered your own question."

------
pkrumins
as technical as possible. i think a business major has little chance.

------
giles_bowkett
_Can the business major who loves the web and has a good idea about a web
based business succeed_

Yes. Kevin Rose.

------
belhassen
It s very funny to see your reactions. "do we really need a business guy?"

Do you know what business guys say about techno/hacker/super ego hacker guys?
They ll always find a dumb one that will do the job for them for few dollars.

It s interesting how you return the situation with so much pretention in a
tentative to build yourself a legitimity.

You re just a tool.You re just missing the context. keep dreaming about the 20
successful heros of your tribe that could make it by themselves. Tell me about
ego fishes that discuss about freedom inside their glass..

Good luck anyway .

~~~
rms
When we talk about startups on this forum, we are only referring to the kind
of startups done by hackers, it is fundamentally different from the arrogant
MBA school.

Basically, hackers can learn business pretty easily. I'd like to see you hack.

Try <http://hacketyhack.net>

