
My U.S. Border Nightmare - srl
http://zakhomuth.com/my-us-border-nightmare
======
potatolicious
Author seems a bit naive about international sovereignty, though I suppose one
can't exactly blame him for it.

I grew up in Vancouver, a stone's throw from the border, so I suppose I take
it for granted that we all learn very early on that CBP is a wretched hive of
scum and villainy, and everyone knows _someone_ who was chewed out, berated,
and generally treated like a criminal by them.

Seeing as how I work in the US now, it's probably fortunate that I grew up
with such a cynical view about crossing international borders.

Anyways, let this be a lesson to Canadians (or I suppose more generally, all
non-Americans) who want to cross the border for whatever reason: be prepared
_always_ for the worst. If you are crossing for business, _always_ seek legal
advice for your situation, and make sure _all_ of your ducks are lined up in a
row. You have _no right_ to enter a country where you are not a citizen,
regardless of what treaties and protocols your two nations have set up.

I do have a question for the author though: what kind of training involves
setting up a US corp? Also, regardless of how you classify it in your head,
I'm fairly certain that setting up and working for a US corp, for profit or
education or just plain fun, _means you're working in the USA_ , and would be
illegal without the relevant visas.

Without knowing the specifics about his situation, it would seem to me that he
_was_ in fact trying to enter the US illegally - though he didn't seem to know
this. Ignorance of the law won't help you very much when you're in a room with
an irate CBP officer.

~~~
pyre
I will add an anecdote here. I have crossed the US-Canada land border _many_
times. I've only ever been 'chewed out' by Canadian Border Patrol _once_. I've
had this happen _multiple_ times from the US Border Patrol _and I'm a US
citizen._

The Canadian Border Patrol has always been calm, patient and understanding in
my experience. The US border patrol is hit-or-miss. Some people are nice (
_once_ I was only asked two questions, and wasn't even required to show my
passport, back in ~2005), while others obviously have a chip on their shoulder
and are just looking for someway to nail to the wall... no matter how small or
insignificant.

~~~
oldstrangers
Some more anecdotes.

I've crossed into Canada twice, both times awful. The first time (crossing
from Detroit, heading towards Toronto) required having my entire car searched.
The people were extremely unpleasant. Probably took close to an hour at the
border. Coming home through Buffalo took two seconds. Second time was heading
to Montreal from NYC and the guard was just generally a dick. Again, returning
home, the guard was very friendly and advised us of some bad weather.

Maybe there's a system to the dickery, but probably not. I think border guards
are generally hit or miss, regardless of their country.

~~~
pyre

      > Maybe there's a system to the dickery, but probably
      > not. I think border guards are generally hit or miss,
      > regardless of their country.
    

I generally find that I've had fewer bad experiences by avoiding the
Ambassador Bridge (Detroit), the Peace Bridge (Buffalo), and the Lewiston-
Kingston Bridge (north of Niagara Falls).

The only bad experience I had with Canadian Border Officers was at the
Lewiston-Kingston Bridge.

To me, this seems to make sense. These crossings are higher traffic than the
other crossings (Rainbow Bridge, Detroit-Windsor Tunnel) in those areas. There
may be more pressure on the guards at those crossings to be extra cautious, or
they just might find people trying to pull stupid stuff more often (which re-
enforces the idea that anyone is a potential 'evil-doer').

The other pattern that I've noticed is that most of the officers with chips on
their shoulders reek of ex-military, whereas the more reasonable people don't
give off that vibe.

------
grecy
I'm a foreigner that has crossed into the USA 25+ times, about half of those
at land borders from Canada (where I live, but I'm not Canadian)

>the border guard starts in on me hard. I mean he had it out for me. I still
have no idea why I rubbed him the wrong way, but he sure didn't like me.

This happens to me 75% of the time I try to enter the USA.

The best one was when I had my usa-plated motorbike in Canada, and came back
into the USA with it. The border guard yelled at me, literally yelled at me
for 2 hours about how much trouble I was in. "You gunna get it, boy", etc.
Whenever I politely asked what law I had broken, I was told to "shut the hell
up, smartass". (I broke no law, and was eventually allowed on my way)

Another time in front of about 40 people the border guard booms "Can you read,
Boy?". To which I replied "yes, sir", as he threw my passport across the room,
hitting me on the chest and falling on the floor.

A while back I was flying out from LA to Melbourne, and upon looking at my
international plane ticket, the border guard said "where's Melbourne?". I was
then forced to sit in a dark room, by myself for 4 hours, until another guard
came along and said "looks fine to me, on your way"

>he was trying to get me to talk and contradict myself - which I have to admit
is pretty fucked up.

This is the case every time I cross the border.

For the record, I'm white.

~~~
mech4bg
Ouch, I'm not sure what that says that I immediately wondered if you were a
minority.

Oh, and I had a similar experience re: Melbourne. I'm a US citizen living in
Australia, and was landing in San Fran for a 3 week visit about 8 years ago.
As required by law, I travel on my US passport in and out of the US, so no
problem right? But no, I start getting the third degree about what I do with
myself - "I'm a student at the University of Melbourne" - "What is that? A
college? What's Melbourne?" - err, where I just came from, and its best known
University.

~~~
yummyfajitas
It says you are familiar with the historical racist usage of "boy"?

(For non-Americans: a common racial slur in the southern US during the Jim
Crow era was to call an adult black man "boy".)

~~~
vacri
There was a curious culture clash in the '60s when Muhammad Ali was in
Australia doing a meet'n'greet and a local TV personality was doing a light-
hearted interview with him, and threw in the phrase 'I like the boy',
referring to Ali.

The phrase was a slogan for a product that the local celebrity had been
involved with, and didn't have the connotations here that it did in Ali's home
country... the interview went sour fast.

~~~
twopi
"I like the boy" really just refers to a young male the way its said here, in
Australia anyway. However, having watched enough American films, people are
exposed to the "something something, boy." usage and aware of its
connotations. These days you might say "guy" instead of "boy" but for no
particular reason except that languages change.

In older English films, you often hear "my boy", which also doesn't have the
same connotations.

Across cultural boundaries, the same words can mean different things.

Nonetheless, I'd be offended if someone referred to me as "boy" when directly
addressing me because of the connotations that come from a culture separate to
my own.

~~~
vacri
I imagine being referred to as 'boy' while your passport is airborne is
offensive everywhere :)

here's the video (can't confirm audio on this machine)
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWKyDGGptA4>

corrections to my story:

\- late '70s

\- misunderstanding was acknowledged and forgiven

------
lancewiggs
This is sadly a pretty obvious case. The author was moving to the US to start
a company. It wasn't to travel, nor to pop in and out to conduct business, and
calling yCombinator a training program is a stretch. It might be, but it's a
'training program' that helps you start a business. A simple google would have
told the agent what was what.

Blame dumb visa requirements, not the agents who actually managed to catch you
out. The laws need to be changed, and Obama actually got the point in his
SOTU.

In my five years living in the US during the first dot com boom first a
student then on an H1B visa I knew enough not to bother trying to start a
business. I've since started or helped start over 10, but none in the USA.
Their loss.

~~~
lambda
I would go so far as to say that calling YCombinator "training" is an outright
lie. It's a business incubator and angel investment program; they pay you to
develop a prototype, and introduce you to potential investors.

I feel misled after reading the article. Not knowing the context, I assumed
that he was actually referring to some sort of training; something like
business school, in which you pay to be taught. Instead, being given an
initial investment to form a corporation, write a prototype, and shop it
around to venture capitalists is pretty much the definition of "doing
business," even if it is only the first few steps.

I can imagine why CBP officers would feel misled as well. And it doesn't help
that he is saying he had no intention of keeping the business in the US.
Starting up a business in the US just to take the capital and move the
business overseas? This isn't something that a lot of border officers are
going to take kindly to, nor is there likely to be much in the way of laws
encouraging it.

I would absolutely like to make it easier for successful, smart, and educated
people to immigrate to the US, and make it easy for people to immigrate to the
US in order to start a business. But going to the US to hit up investors, work
for three months to get a prototype going, and then move the business
elsewhere? You're going to have a hard time selling that.

~~~
gcp
He's still making his US investors a huge profit in the process. Somebody else
does the work, we get rich. How can you not want this? :-)

~~~
dotBen
Right now America doesn't. You're making a philosophical argument in the
context of a US Border cross where predetermined visa categories have already
been established.

------
patio11
I have a certain amount of sympathy given that Japanese immigration features
in all of my nightmares.

That said, attempting to cross borders for the purpose of working illegally
(sorry, I don't like the law either, but there is no conceivable way that YC
does not count as employment) will not endear you to law enforcement. I wish
they had been more polite in the course of discovering your true purpose and
refusing you entry, but if they hadn't, that would have been a crazy result
under US immigration law.

There's better ways to handle one's business and legal affairs tactically, but
start with knowing that the US really doesn't have a visa category "People
from countries we like, for any purposes whatsoever, no questions."

~~~
mortenjorck
Any stories of Japanese immigration you'd like to link to/share that might
help prepare someone planning on visiting the country?

------
salman89
I think that the author is misleading his readers. YC is a far cry from a
training program.

"Often this training involves setting up an American corporation for the
startup activities - but I'll get to that later.".

Why didn't he just say he was accepted into a start-up incubator, and his
company was being funded in exchange for a piece of the company that was being
incorporated, and that they were going to make a real product and try to find
customers for that product?

"We go through his whole list and at the very end, he very stubbornly says
none of it matters because the real grounds for refusal are that I am trying
to start a business in the US as according to the notes on my file by the
Lewiston prosecutor. I refute this, explain the documentation prevents and
disproves this, I explain and explain and explain and all to no effect."

What exactly are you doing in YC then...?

~~~
URSpider94
Agreed 200%. Classifying YC as a training program to immigration officials is
bordering on fraud. He's lucky that he didn't get banned.

------
wyclif
_never enter the US with an unclear leaving date_

He makes it sound like this is an evil US policy. But in fact, every country
I've ever visited outside the US, and I've visited a lot, asked me when I
would be leaving and issued the appropriate visa. For example, if you visit
the Philippines, the initial visa is 21 days. You can extend the visa, but
again you must inform the government of your leave date. But if you mess
around with Customs on this, you're likely to get in trouble all over the
world, not just in the US.

~~~
ubernostrum
Honestly, the same is true for _Canada_.

I was in Toronto for a week for work in December, and part of entering the
country was presenting a letter signed by our Canadian office verifying that I
really would be leaving on the set date, that my accommodations and travel out
of Canada were already booked and paid for, etc.

~~~
pbiggar
Having travelled to both Canada and the US for a dodgy-looking (but in both
cases totally legitimate) 3 month visit, I can tell you the Canadians are very
much stricter than the American border guards.

~~~
Spoom
This has not been my experience, but both are much stricter to those who are
not their citizens, since they're pretty much charged to be. If you're an
American entering Canada, expect to get asked why, and vice versa. It seemed
like the OP was trying to enter on a non-work-authorized visa waiver, and
that's just not kosher to USCBP. I say this as a US immigrant from Canada.

Always make sure you have your ducks in a row at the border. I still find it
hard to believe that someone approved to YC would not know that. If you're
doing anything more than _just_ visiting, you probably need to apply for a
visa in advance. Lying to CBP (they call it "misrepresentation") is grounds
for a lifetime ban from the US.

------
yequalsx
I'm a natural born U.S. citizen from the Canal Zone (former U.S. territory). I
get harassed quite a bit whenever I come back to the U.S. from overseas. The
last time I was brusquely asked if I was a natural born citizen or had been
naturalized at some point. I responded, "I was born in the same hospital as
John McCain." The officer let me through after that retort.

In my experience the CPB is the worst customs agency in the world and I'm an
American. Natural born, of course.

~~~
aprescott
> The last time I was brusquely asked if I was a natural born citizen or had
> been naturalized at some point.

If you're naturalised, my understanding is that you have all the rights of a
person originally born in the country, with everything that implies. Is there
even a point of asking this question other than aggressiveness?

~~~
raganwald
Not quite _all_ the same rights and privileges. If you are entering the USA
for the purpose of working as POTUS, They have grounds to refuse you as
ineligible ;-)

~~~
dotBen
Well, presumably he does have the right to become POTUS if he was born in the
same hospital as John McCain seeing as John McCain was a presidential
candidate and thus his eligibility was already predetermined.

------
latch
I couldn't get through that wall of incoherent text. But from what I read,
he's 100% wrong...maybe the story gets really weird though...however..

Traveling to a country which you are not a citizen of is not a right, it's a
privilege. There are places where you need to apply weeks (or months) in
advanced just to visit. Every country has different types of visas, and each
visa has restrictions on what sort of activity you can and cannot engage in.
If you are unprepared, or worse, you get caught breaking these laws, whatever
happens is your own fault.

Don't like the system? Don't like how a particular country enforces its laws
or what the punishment can be? Don't travel.

~~~
smsm42
This is completely true. If somebody's house stinks and is ugly, it's totally
within his right to say to everybody: "don't like the stink? Don't come to my
house!". However, the house doesn't stop to stink because of that :) I think
US immigration policies could use a lot of improvement (using more polite
expression here) and their implementation, including proneness of some
personnel to power trips, could use a lot of improvement too. I myself crossed
US border many times (not a citizen) and never had a bad experience, but I
have read enough horror stories to conclude it happens much more often than it
should have. And yes, nobody forces anybody to come to the US, and yes, it's
totally within rights of the US to deny entry to any non-citizen and be as
rude as they want while doing it. But that does not negate the facts expressed
above, and I think US would significantly benefit if they fixed it. Saying
"don't like our border guards - stay the hell out" won't benefit anybody.

~~~
krschultz
Well, technically it benefits the citizens of the US if it prevents terrorists
from coming in. Recall that the 9/11 terrorists came via the US/Canadian
border. The first goal of the border agents is to prevent that from happening
again. The 2nd goal is smooth service for all the non-terrorists.
Unfortunately this is the world we live in.

~~~
huggyface
_Recall that the 9/11 terrorists came via the US/Canadian border._

Not one of the 9/11 terrorists entered the US from Canada, and it is a
startling indictment that there are people still so incredibly ignorant to
make this claim.

Further the US has one of the most porous borders on the planet, with some 12
_million_ \+ illegals within its confines right now. They didn't get there
from Canada -- they flew directly in from overseas, or walked across the land
border from Mexico.

~~~
krschultz
Excuse me, it was Ahmed Ressam. So just a terrorist, not a 9/11 terrorist. I
guess that completely negates my point right?

~~~
huggyface
It is an incredible mistake to make, so yes it does bring your perspective
into question. Especially given that this story has absolutely nothing to do
with "catching terrorists" -- even the most paranoid interpretation wouldn't
go down that route -- and everything to do with immigration thinking he was
going to be a lazy layabout who would end up working illegally in the US (or
worse would end up resorting to petty crime to support himself)

~~~
krschultz
The fact that you have only been a member here for 22 days is plainly
apparent. Our community doesn't take the tone you are using.

I frankly don't think you understand one bit of what I was saying. You latched
on to one part of my original statement - which particular terrorist it was
that crossed the border - and missed the overall point. The border patrol is
not there for travelers convience. The burdon is on the traveler to have their
affairs in order. The officers are going to really dig into anyone who has a
wierd story or raises red flags. The fact that you know you are innocent
doesn't mean they know you are innocent.

Let me give you an example. The last time I crossed the border from Canada
into the US, I was waiting in line in my car. I was probably 10 cars from the
checkpoint when I realized that I had left my passport in its usual home in my
suitcase - which was in the trunk. I thought, "oh, I'll go get that now so I
don't have to waste time later and hold everyone up in this line" which seemed
like the efficient thing to do. As soon as I got out of my car to open the
trunk I had a pile of border patrol agents running at me yelling to put my
hands up. I hadn't realized it, but apparently going for the trunk would be an
obvious move to set off a car bomb.

Once they came over and we talked about what I was doing it was all cleared up
and I had no issues, but at the moment what was an entirely innocent action to
me appeared to be very suspicious to them. That is not an indictment of them,
it is just a fact based on the red flags they are looking for. If you hit
those red flags, whether you know you are innocent or not, you are viewed
through the lense of their training.

Now if you got that from my original message and still think I'm an idiot,
then thats your opinion. But that's my perspective on the matter and I'm
almost certain that you are judging it without understanding it.

~~~
huggyface
_The fact that you have only been a member here for 22 days is plainly
apparent._

How utterly obnoxious. I suspect that few of the HN community would embrace
your inability to accept your error.

 _You latched on to one part of my original statement - which particular
terrorist it was that crossed the border - and missed the overall point._

You claimed that _all_ of those responsible for the worst terrorist incident
in the US history came through Canada. Only none of them did. It's a pretty
egregious claim.

The rest of your boring story is irrelevant. Terrorism has _nothing_ to do
with this situation. Nothing at all. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

------
jperras
As someone who, up until recently, traveled to the United States on a regular
basis (I'm Canadian), this doesn't surprise me at all. The author basically
committed every mistake in the book.

Generally, every question that the CBP agent will ask revolves around money:
who pays your salary, in what currency, are you attempting to get in to the
USA to find a job, will someone be giving you money for whatever reason (e.g.
honorarium for giving a talk at a conference), etc. Even if the question
sounds innocuous or completely unrelated to money, chances are that depending
on your response, a follow up question _would_ be. Additionally, if for
whatever reason the agent decides that he doesn't like your story and believes
that you are going to the USA and are going to be given money while you're
there, you're basically shit out of luck.

> I say Waterloo (totally out of habit) and that I left my job so its no issue
> about the time off (just a pointer here - never enter the US with an unclear
> leaving date, and no paying job).

As someone who got locked up in a tiny room for a few hours because I
mentioned that (at the time) I had been self-employed, these are basically the
_worst_ things that you can say.

I really do understand what the author went through, and I sympathize. But the
reality of the situation is that entering a country where you are not a
citizen is not a right, it's a _privilege_.

Remember: The CBP agents aren't there to let you in; there are there to keep
people _out_.

~~~
nitrogen
_I really do understand what the author went through, and I sympathize. But
the reality of the situation is that entering a country where you are not a
citizen is not a right, it's a _privilege_._

The reality of the situation is that any country that treats its most
productive guests in this way won't remain an attractive destination,
regardless of whether those guests have the right or privilege of visiting.

~~~
true_religion
I'm wondering when that's going to happen because it seems that the US has
always treated people this way since nigh on the beginning of its time.

It's one of the few countries in existence with a century-long isolationist
movement, and in decade after decade has had anti-immigration sentiment run
high for one immigrant group after another.

~~~
wmoxam
Not really. The US-Canada border was far easier to cross pre-911. You didn't
even need a passport to cross up until 2004.

~~~
ojbyrne
At one point in the nineties I was driving from Canada to Maine and actually
had to wake up the guard at the border crossing.

------
Kylekramer
Almost comical in how he did everything to seem more suspect (one way travel,
long undefined stay, no job, etc.). As an American who went to university in
Montreal and holder of the rare distinction of being called a "retard" by an
officer in front of a crowded lobby at the Canadian Border, I have more
opinions than healthy about the American-Canadian crossing experience. But as
the officer who called me a retard told me in the back room, if you aren't a
citizen, they are under no obligation to let you in. It is just best to be
aware of what they want to hear (you aren't staying, you don't have a lot of
cash/booze/cigs/perishable goods, all the papers have been filled, and you
don't come across as deceitful) and give the version of the truth that fits
that narrative the best.

~~~
DanBC
> _you don't have a lot of cash_

...but you have enough that you're not going to need to start working to
support yourself.

~~~
brk
I think they mean as in literal cash on your person vs. access to cash or
lines of credit to sustain your living condition.

------
jakejake
It would have gone much smoother like this:

Border Patrol: What is the purpose of your visit?

Liar: I'm helping my friend move

Border Patrol: How long are you staying?

Liar: Heading back on Monday.

Border Patrol: OK, have a good trip.

The problem is, well, primarily that he chose to lie when crossing the border.
But, more specifically he chose the _wrong_ lie to tell. If you're crossing
the border and planning to lie about the purpose of your visit, you'd be
better off making it easy on yourself and lie about the length of your stay
instead.

I don't mean to suggest to anyone that you _should_ lie at all - it is much
smarter to just tell the truth. I'm just saying that if you are planning to
lie because you have the wrong visa type or whatever, then at least be smart
about it and think of better story. Otherwise you wind up trying to explain to
a border patrol why you are entering the country with no return date and
staying for 3 months just to "visit California."

------
nonce43
Some tips for border crossings, based on my Canada to US experiences:

The border agents don't like one-way flights. My sister was turned away at the
border because she had a one-way flight to visit her boyfriend and they
figured she was going to visit illegally. She also had "suspicious" things in
her suitcase like a cookbook: "So you're going to take an illegal food service
job?"

Make sure you can prove you have enough money to support yourself. The guy in
line in front of me got sent back once because he couldn't prove this.

Avoid hard-to-explain travel arrangements, such as travelling in the US,
crossing the border back into Canada to visit someone, then crossing back into
the US to catch a plane. My best friend got stuck in Windsor because of this,
although his scary hair and beard probably didn't help either.

If you have a green card, don't leave it at home by mistake. I got taken into
the little room and had to pay a $265 administrative fee because of this.

Make sure you have documentation for everything. When my friends drove through
the US to a wedding, I told them to make sure they had the invitation, hotel
info, etc, to show customs so everything went smoothly.

Don't have a complex story that makes no sense. I'm sympathetic to the
original author, but reading his post I couldn't figure out what he was really
doing in the US and I'm not surprised he got turned away.

The strangest questioning I had crossing the border: "Where are you visiting?"
"What's your father's name?" "What does your father do?" "A teacher? What
school did he teach at?" By this point, I was wondering where this line of
questioning was leading. But then the border guard said, "I know your father.
He taught me in Grade 11."

While I'm on the subject of border crossing, I've opted out of TSA body
scanning several times. I've seen complaints from others, but the patdown has
always gone smoothly for me.

------
fluidcruft
> I still have no idea why I rubbed him the wrong way, but he sure didn't like
> me.

Border guards are trained to make you feel uncomfortable, because they need to
be driving with you to in a reactive state. They adapt to build psychological
pressure. Don't get too hung up on them "singling" you out or targeting you, a
lot of it is carefully choreographed and rote.

~~~
pyre
It is _not_ choreographed. Some of these people do actually have chips on
their shoulders. I've seen the frustration they show towards fellow officers
while off to the side that they didn't get a chance to 'nail me to the wall.'

I've also heard from a cabbie that crosses the land border often that
sometimes the guys in the booth will send someone inside, _then come inside
and request to deal with that person themselves._ This allows for massive
amounts of abuse for assholes on power trips. If it has to go through multiple
people, there's at least a chance for one officer to say, "WTF" if another is
out-of-line.

Some people are super-nice, and others are complete assholes. This is not by
design. If it was all choreographed, then the experience would be very much
more homogeneous.

That said, there is a difference between a 'stern line of questioning,' and
making an ass of yourself. Conversations like:

    
    
      Officer: Question1?
      Me: Answer, because...
      Officer: Stop trying to qualify your answers! I'm asking
               the questions here asshole. Just answer *exactly* what
               I ask you, are you stupid or something?
    

Are the office being an asshole. I've only had these conversations happen a
handful of times, over a _ton_ of land-border crossings, but they do happen.
Saying that it's all 'choreographed' just gives these guys a blank cheque to
do whatever the hell they feel like and get away with it. Having a bad day?
Just take it out on people crossing the border! It's not like they have any
rights or anything once they get in line! No one will care if you abuse them!
(This is obviously a recipe for only good things!)

------
bitwize
You can't go anywhere in this post-9/11 world without the potential for being
hassled by the gendarmes.

When I landed in Helsinki en route to Osaka, I was stopped by a border agent
because my passport was not stamped. I was led back into a downright skeery
waiting area for what looked like one of those good-cop-bad-cop, beat-the-
crap-out-of-the-suspect interrogation rooms you see in cop shows and movies.
She also had a pistol on her hip. No mere paper jockey, this one. She had to
be ready to _shoot_ a motherfucker.

Now as it turns out I landed in France, and to the French, it seems, stamping
your passport is something of an optional administrative detail that may be
overlooked. So my passport was looked at but not stamped. That raised some WTF
alarms when I landed in Finland. (Good old EU! A model of international
cooperation!) I tried explaining this in the best way I knew how, me not
knowing WTF was going on either since this was my first European landing, and
waited, tensely, for 15 minutes while they decided whether to do the old good-
cop-bad-cop routine on me.

Thankfully, they said I could go. But I was on pins and needles there for a
while.

~~~
nandemo
Out of curiosity, what was the starting point? Wherever you start from, France
and Helsinki sounds like an unusual route if you're on the way to Japan.

~~~
bitwize
Boston.

It was actually cheaper if I went that way around the planet via Finnair.

------
peterhajas
I have no sympathy. This sounds like an unprepared traveller, who confused his
story, and then was denied due to the suspicious nature of his story. I know,
start-up rush and hustle, but do your homework. Customs and border protection
are very formal, and it's your responsibility to explain your story clearly
and accurately the first time.

~~~
Maxious
Is he going to roll up to VCs offices and ask them to cut him a cheque because
he doesn't know what investment instruments are?

------
spitfire
Two hints for easily crossing the boarder:

1\. Enter via private plane. The staff at airfields handling private air
traffic tend to be less stressed and way more relaxed. I've taxi'd right past
the allotted space (Found it eventually) as well as made gitmo jokes with BP -
they just laugh.

2\. Cross by car at a smaller crossing. Again staff tend to be less stressed
and more accommodating.

3\. (I took CS!) Have all your ducks in a row before heading off. Really. No
really, work it all out beforehand. Even if just going for lunch (Which is
easy. "I'm going for lunch sir, I'll be leaving in 2 hours")

~~~
uptown
If the solution is to take a private plane, why not just suggest
teleportation? It's as viable an option for most travelers.

~~~
spitfire
I specifically said private plane instead of private jet for a reason. They
make very useful business tools and they're a lot more accessible than people
think. A used Cessna 172 goes for about $20K these days. While charters can be
had for $200 and up - for three+ passengers.

This can be a serious advantage if you do a lot of business within 1000 mile
range of home base.

------
Steko
My wife works for Air Canada in the US and consequently when traveling we see
both US and Canadian immigration on a regular basis. I can assure you that
there are royal dicks working in both offices. And also great people. There's
some skill and some luck involved in getting more of the latter then the
former.

One memorable occasion: Just over a year ago I booked a ticket at the last
moment, traveling one way and by myself to join my wife for New Years. I
couldn't find my passport but with nothing to lose I gave it a shot with no
picture ID on me except a 19 year old expired passport and a Costco card.
Shockingly, through massive understanding and goodwill, I was able to pass
through both Canadian and US security and immigration, albeit not without a
few extra questions. Did I mention my mixed background is often mistaken for
Middle Eastern and I have a scary drifter beard that sometimes causes my
neighbors to politely decline riding in the elevator with me (lest they be
mugged or assraped apparently).

So yeah, when I read this article, my impression is the whole story might be a
_little_ different. If you could also get the story as told by (1) the guys he
was traveling with, (2) the guard, (3) the guard's wife and (4) the spirit
medium well might be a cool movie in there.

------
tnuc
The biggest mistake made here is the inconsistency. He was invited to do
business training yet has no job to go back to.

At least he didn't do anything stupid enough to get banned for ten years.

Next time: Try being nice to the border guard. Let them do their job but at
the same time try to engage in some conversation that is of interest to them.
Don't try to engage to much. Social engineering goes a lot further than the
rule book.

Don't forget border guards know how to use the the internet and read his
blog/website/Resume. Which leads to the question, if he wasn't working for
upverter anymore, what exactly was he wanting to do in the US.

------
tkiley
I'm a US Citizen. I recently went through the process of setting up a Canadian
subsidiary of my US company, and obtaining a work permit to oversee Canadian
operations temporarily.

The process was ridiculously stressful and daunting. My company is not exactly
a huge economic driver in Canada (right now I'm bringing about $500k per year
in local economic investment to BC), but it's amazingly time-consuming to get
all the paperwork right and get a work permit.

After going through this process to enter Canada, I am considerably more
sympathetic and tuned-in to the discussion of immigration reform in the USA.
Zak may have technically been in the wrong here (and the border officers may
have been correct in turning him away according to the law) but I think the
law is profoundly sub-optimal, and it saddens me to see that my native country
is this economically backward.

------
krschultz
You need a laywer. Plain and simple. There are very good lawyers for this type
of stuff - unfortunately they are not cheap and I assume the cost would eat
most of the YC investment. But it can be cleared up and worked out if you want
to.

Having done business across this border before I'm sorry to say this is a very
typical story. Recreational travel across the US/Canada border is quite simple
but both sides are sticklers for business travel. People have crossed 50 times
to go skiing or visit family without a problem and get used to that process,
and then show up the 51st time saying they're on a business trip and end up
getting refused because they don't have the right visa.

~~~
leot
It's really not that complicated, at least when going between the US and
Canada. A lawyer is perhaps a good idea for getting an H1-B, but beyond that,
not so much. Immigration law is more straightforward than other areas, it
seems. Perhaps because it's less adversarial.

I used this guy's website to successfully (and without hassle) get a US work
visa: <http://www.grasmick.com/>

I'm constantly back-and-forth between the US and Canada, on a variety of
visas. Generally, US customs officials based in Canada are far nicer. It's
good to try and minimize the possibility that they'll be cranky or see you as
suspect. I never feel like I have a right to enter the country I'm not a
citizen of.

Also, if you're frequently back-and-forth between the US and Canada, you might
consider getting a NEXUS pass. If you're Canadian it's just $50, good for five
years, and should minimize border agent hassle.

------
k-mcgrady
After reading this it seems like a lot of the guys problems could have been
avoided and were his own fault.

Now, I think the behaviour of some of the border patrol agents seems
unacceptable, but he was trying to enter the US for 3 months with no proof of
ties to home and no return flight.

Putting the business visa aside, that alone is enough to be rejected. If you
have no job, and do not own a house or have a mortgage, and have not booked a
return flight home (and I don't believe he had any documents to prove he could
afford one) you are going to be rejected.

Normally I wouldn't side with border patrol but despite the poor treatment he
received he brought a lot of it on himself through poor planning.

------
mafro
Having been born in the UK and travelled to Europe a lot, jeez do we get it
easy there. You can drive across ten countries in a month and have nobody
blink twice. They see the coat of arms on the UK passport and just wave you
through.

The one time I did go to America was precisely through the port the OP did -
from Niagara into Buffalo. I got asked some pretty awkward questions and made
to feel quite uncomfortable - at the time I thought they were massive bunch of
assholes.

He really didn't understand that we were just going over the border for 2
hours to eat chicken wings!

~~~
maxerickson
It's just different. The lower 48 is roughly twice the size of the Schengen
area, without any border control anywhere.

Throw in Mexico, Canada and Alaska and you are up to 6 times the area, with 3
borders (and the Canada-Alaska border is sort of its own thing).

"It's a big place" doesn't really relate back to border control policy, but
the borders of the U.S. and Canada aren't really all that similar to the
borders of countries like the Netherlands or Spain.

~~~
wmoxam
"the borders of the U.S. and Canada aren't really all that similar to the
borders of countries like the Netherlands or Spain"

They used to be.

~~~
maxerickson
Yeah. I was thinking more about the physical scope of it and the variety and
amount of traffic.

I imagine it would be far less expensive for the U.S. and Canada to just open
the border and spend some of the savings on policing any problems from that,
but I don't really expect that to happen in the near future.

------
meiji
I've never had an awful lot of sympathy for people who assume that because
they know they're not up to anything dodgy that the immigration people will
know too. I was married in the US and knew that when I went on my honeymoon I
better have letters from my employer in the UK as well as my return ticket or
I might get refused entry to the US when I was heading back to where my new
wife lived. Predictably I ended up in secondary checks, they were fine and I
moved on. I've had the same half a dozen times when traveling for funerals,
weddings or just holidays. My wife was also interrogated by British
immigration for two hours before we got married. Again they want proof that
you're up to no harm and it's your job to do that.

A former colleague of mine tried to get his American girlfriend to the UK and
they had massively different stories when she arrived. She got a 1-month
holiday visa and a severe threat that both (he was a US citizen) would be
deported if she overstayed by even a single day.

The onus is on the person crossing the border to know what they're doing.
There's plenty of info, particularly on going to the US and no excuse not to
prepare, especially if you're going for work not a holiday.

------
ajays
Things have changed dramatically since 9/11 . I remember coming back to the US
via the same Lewiston bridge, after a night of partying in Canada, and on
occasions not even being asked for an ID (I was not a US citizen then, and I'm
not white). Maybe it was the car's registration. And a couple of times I was
just asked to show my student ID (I was on an F1 visa then).

------
rdtsc
> Thats right ladies and gentlemen, if I told him the truth he would fight for
> me, but agreeing to his truth is in conflict with my originally story, and
> thus I have committed fraud

Yikes. You really walked into that one. The more I kept reading the more I was
cringing. The good cop, bad cop routine, letting you sit for hours, "let me
talk to the supervisor" thing.

~~~
daemin
The thing that struck out at me on first read was the new officer that was
"working hard for you, provided you told him the real truth". Smelled fishy to
me.

------
holri
It was easier and more fun to get into communist Hungary and Czech Republic in
the nineteen eighties.

------
bdonlan
Ow. Please put in some paragraph breaks, it's a nightmare to try to read a
long wall of text like that without some kind of landmark to latch on to.

~~~
jnbiche
You read that and your first reaction is punctuation?

~~~
groggles
It is mentally arduous to try to parse through it. I really tried but had to
give up.

Punctuation exists for good reason.

~~~
jnbiche
OK, fair enough. I thought you were just nitpicking. And after reading about
his ordeal, I wasn't really open to nitpicking. As one human to another, I
would suggest that when commenting on a highly-emotional blog post like this
one, where the author has lived through a difficult experience, prefacing your
criticism on their punctuation/grammar with a simple "wow, tough experience"
or some other kind words would go a long way. Chances are high that this
individual will read your words.

We can debate whether or not the ordeal was deserved or not, but I don't think
many of us can honestly deny that he lived through a tough experience.

To those downvoting me, that's fine. But please realize that I was trying to
uphold one of this community's core tenets, which is don't write things you
wouldn't say to someone in real life (paraphrasing). I don't know groggles,
but I'm guessing that he/she is an emotionally-mature adult, and so I can't
imagine him/her saying to someone who just described being jailed and harassed
by customs, "Please enunciate better when you talk -- I had a hard time
understanding you". To me at least, this kind of attitude represents a major
reason for the decline of online communities. Sometimes I just can't watch it
happen without saying something.

~~~
izaidi
Whether intentionally or not, your own post came off as fairly rude, in my
opinion much moreso than the parent, which is probably why you were downvoted.

------
alan_cx
I can only read so many comments, so if this has been covered, apologies.

I don't think any one begrudges countries their border paranoia. But what is
utterly un-necessary is the rude, psychotic, OTT behaviour of the border
people. Fine that they want to check people out, but to scream, shot, and
abuse people visiting is frankly outrageous.

I've rarely left my country, and every time it was no pain what so ever. But
after reading that, which confirms all the negative press, has confirmed that
I will never ever travel to the USA. Why would any one want to risk that?

------
ari_
I keep seeing a bunch of US Citizens posting here about issues they have with
CBP/DHS on re-entering the US. Just a quick note + a link - you are protected
by the fifth amendment and are not required to say a word to any officer at
any time. You are NOT protected by the 4th amendment at the border and your
consent is not required for any search.

[http://nomadlaw.com/2010/09/more-law-refusing-answer-
questio...](http://nomadlaw.com/2010/09/more-law-refusing-answer-questions-at-
passport-control/)

------
vacri
_Thats right ladies and gentlemen, if I told him the truth he would fight for
me, but agreeing to his truth is in conflict with my originally story, and
thus I have committed fraud - I believe that is called a catch-22._

This reminds me of the difference between Australia and the US in regards to
the right to withhold comment. With similar legal backgrounds, there are
similar rights about being questioned, but there are subtle differences.

In the US there's the good old 5th amendment that everyone knows (from TV if
nowhere else). You don't have to comment, and your unwillingness to comment
cannot be used against you in court. However the police can quite freely and
happily lie to you to get what they want.

There are subtle differences here in Australia. You can reserve the right not
to comment. You don't have to speak, but depending on circumstance,
withholding comment _can_ be used against you in court (I guess for things
like "I refuse to say where I was on the night of my wife's murder" kind of
stuff, I don't know for sure).

But on the other hand, when questioned by police, they have to tell you what
they're questioning you about at the start of the interview. If they're
questioning you about a robbery down the street and you let slip that you have
illegal drugs in the house, it's not connected to their reason for interview
and technically they can't use it. There are exceptions for very serious
crimes like murder, of course.

It means that authorities do not have the right to go on 'fishing
expeditions', though I don't know whether it applies to border control.

disclaimer: I don't follow law in much detail, just read the above from an
Australian law site when I was wondering what our version of "the 5th" was...

~~~
njharman
The 5th amendment covers US citizens, not foreign nationals attempting to
enter country.

~~~
srj
Actually I believe foreign nationals are provided many of the same rights that
citizens enjoy when within US territory. This comes from the language of the
5th and 14th amendments, they refer to "persons" and not "citizens". Also I
recall reading that the 5th amendment right against self incrimination doesn't
apply at border crossings for anyone.

~~~
Spoom
Border crossings are a legal no-man's-land. You aren't guaranteed any
protections under either Constitution, as I understand it. Once you're in the
country, you're afforded all the protections (as you said, "persons" not
"citizens"), but the border is a different matter entirely.

------
baby
I don't get why it's so difficult to travel from Canada to the U.S.

I'm from France and I can travel everywhere in Europe without having to show
any identification and without having to prove something...

Right now I'm near Toronto and planning to go to the U.S. in a couple of
weeks... Heard so many stories about other students buying their plane tickets
and then being stucked at the border, and now this rant, I'm shitting myself.

~~~
beachgeek
Calm down. Just have your papers in order, be polite and courteous and you'll
be fine.

Enjoy your trip!

------
yason
So what we learn is that it doesn't really matter if you're trying to be
honest down to details or enter with illegal plans to stay in the US: what
matters is _not appearing_ different, and hopefully be equipped with a
rehearsed canned explanation that comes with paperwork to back it up.

The border officers ask generic questions and try to see how you respond to
them. This is good because the response will reveal more than your words.

However, the caveat is that if you honestly enter with a reason that is
somewhat out of ordinary then you just make it more complex the more honest
details you spit out. On the other hand, if you manage to appear like the
thousand other people who went across the border the same day, you can have
lots of things that you never need to or want to explain.

So, it comes down to playing a role. Rehearsing answers to likely questions
helps not because you'd want to learn to lie to the border officials but to
keep the process smooth by sticking to its rules. Unfortunately, the same
rehearsal will allow you to cover a purpose of the trip you don't want to
reveal.

~~~
gcp
_So, it comes down to playing a role._

That's why they call it "security theatre".

------
DanielBMarkham
I'm filing this in a long list of "be careful about crossing borders"
articles.

Seriously folks, this isn't like walking to the corner grocery. Know what
documents to have, what to say, how to act -- everything -- before you cross
the border. There are lots of people who get paid everyday to "protect" their
country, and they would like nothing more than to have an excuse to fuck with
you.

Now you may not like that. I do not like that at all. As an American, I really
wish we could be more friendly about these things. I love my country and am
proud of it, but I am also ashamed about it in many ways. This is one of them.
But whether we like it or not or whether we're ashamed of it or not -- you
still gotta know what the hell you are doing when you go to cross a border.

I wish I could upvote this, but sadly it's just too much like a bunch of other
articles.

------
jrmg
I always wonder about legalities when I hear of foreign nationals doing, or
applying for, YCombinator or the like. I have a hard time seeing a legal route
for them to do it. What is the correct way to do it? Is there one, or are they
all bending the rules?

------
tluyben2
At the Vancouver to US border, when I was was on vacation, I had a bit of
trouble not to laugh: _all_ these guys were very big dudes in uniforms with
glasses and mustaches. They all looked exactly alike. Anyway; it was an
interesting experience.

------
JohnGB
My girlfriend has traveled to 60+ countries around the world, and she said
that the US border experience was worse than any other country she has been to
by a long margin.

It's a pity that the first welcome people get amounts to "we don't want you
here".

------
sidwyn
Pardon me, but why are there so many stories on Upverter / related to them
today?

------
desireco42
First, as a Canadian, you probably have more right to come here then most
others. So I apologize for how they treated you. If it is any consolation,
cops do that to us all the time. I don't know why, what is benefit of locking
someone innocent or making people accuse themselves (remember, do you know how
fast you were driving). Anyhow, sorry, enjoy Canada, who knows why this was
good for you. Also, it is not your fault, system is rigged to be abused by
everyone else who will work illegally, but you who will not. So now I am
ranting.

~~~
desireco42
I have to add this as well. Going to foreign countries is always unpleasant
experience because you are without your support structure. In that regard you
were naive and not prepared.

I still think we should have agreement with Canada and people should move more
easily.

------
captainaj
I'm sorry for the author's experience but knowledge and preparation is the key
to winning the war i.e. getting in the US and/or stay for certain amount of
times. I'm not a lawyer but I have filed visa applications and petitions with
the US Immigration Office USCIS many times by myself and have always been
successful despite the fact that my country used to be in a war with the US.
The laws are complicated if you don't read ahead and prep. If you do, it's a
breeze. Hope this helps someone: visajourney dot com

------
corkill
It's important to frame your story in a way they can understand. e.g. if you
are an entrepreneur winging it to the USA. Just make sure that you frame it in
terms they understand, instead of relying on your version of the truth to save
you.

e.g. most border guards believe you need a 9-5 job for life and if you don't
have that you are probably up to no good. So answer with that in mind. Don't
include irrelevant details that don't fit what they can understand.

The more stuff you say they don't understand the worse off you will be.

------
joelhaasnoot
Having gotten a secondary inspection myself because of forgetting to bring a
letter from my internship that I was going to, I know what it's like, but if
you don't have a suspicious story or one that's easy to track down, it shou;d
be fine.

Another post mentions money: they just want you to have enough till you get
out and not be a burden. They asked me what my parents occupation was (they
were my backers), and I did have documentation as to that (their payslips),
not that they cared much.

------
rickmb
I can't believe how many people are defending this because "those are the
rules".

FYI: If a visitor from a friendly first world nation tries to enter your
country carrying a valid passport, the appropriate response at the border
should be: "welcome".

The one in a million who wants to enter the country with the intention of
outstaying their welcome can do this so easily by booking a hotel and having a
return ticket that is is really not worth harassing all the other visitors
for.

------
theashworld
Wow _you_ got funded for running a company? That's inspiring.

------
ck2
Damn this country is disgusting. For what little it's worth I apologize for
those that refuse to.

Yes I know there are worse places in the world but that doesn't mean we have
to be a-holes ourselves.

And stop apologizing for border guards - they don't take that occupation to do
anything noble, they take it because they get off on it.

------
rbreve
I am from Honduras and last year I spent 3 months in NYC on the DreamIt
incubator program, I just told the customs officer that I was going on a 3
months workshop, he just asked me where I was going to stay, my other 4
friends did the same we all got a 6 month business visa. We got lucky I guess.

------
jinushaun
I travel a lot and I've never had as much problem traveling internationally as
I do dealing with Canadian border guards. Oy vey. I always seem to get pulled
over. I've since learned to practice my answers in a terse cold unfriendly
manner. Smiles and friendly doesn't work.

------
mmaunder
For what it's worth, setting up a C corp in the USA as a non-resident, which
is technically legal, will almost certainly flag you for further interrogation
by DHS. If they can find any reason to refuse entry, they will. It's happened
to me. [I'm now a US citizen.]

------
seclorum
Its not so hard: get a Visa before you go to the US. Don't just assume you can
cross the border like its some sort of drive-through situation. If you know
you need to visit the US, go to the US Embassy in your country and file your
paperwork.

------
floetic
I was flying to San Francisco one day at Pearson and was faced with a similiar
situation. I was turned down and asked to be withdrawn. I had all the
necessary paper work and even brought my degree / lawyer look over my papers.

~~~
potatolicious
Were you applying for a TN via YYZ? That's one of the most notoriously
difficult TN gateways, I'm surprised your lawyers let you fly through there.

I've seen people go YVR-YOW-ORD-... just to avoid going through either YVR or
YYZ.

~~~
unreal37
I was told once it's better to drive to Niagara Falls, cross the border by
car, get the TN there, drive back home, and fly to the US by plane a few days
later.

TNs are best requested when you don't have a plane to catch in an hour.

------
goodweeds
Huh? I thought Virgin America canceled their routes between SFO and YYZ a year
ago?

~~~
steve8918
They did. The date of the blog post is Jan 2011. I used to fly that a couple
of times. I even upgraded to first class a couple of times because it was only
$250 extra. I'm actually very disappointed they cancelled that route.

~~~
mahyarm
God damn it. I would of loved that route!

~~~
potatolicious
FWIW, they didn't cancel it due to poor ridership - VX decided to concentrate
on other routes while their fleet was still small. AFAIK there are still plans
to restore the YYZ route once the fleet size is up to par.

------
kjetil
Are people in the US aware that visitors have to agree to be fingerprinted to
enter the country? When I told an (American) friend about this the last time I
visited the US, she refused to believe it.

~~~
leot
No, not all of them. Not all the time. Canadians entering from Canada, and
usually people entering on a tourist visa, don't need to be fingerprinted.

~~~
mahyarm
I got it for my first TN visa, although I really don't know if that was
necessary, since she seem a bit new. She was really nice too!

------
jrockway
If you're ever locked in a jail cell, I have one word of advice: lawyer.

~~~
grecy
As a foreigner being detained in the US, with no official status in the US, he
had no right to a lawyer.

~~~
joshAg
Theoretically, the constitution applies to all people in the united states
jurisdiction, not just citizens. certain rights, like voting, are given only
to citizens, but the Bill of Rights (which gives the right to a lawyer)
applies to any person inside the US.

Practically, there are a few exceptions to this, eg 4th amendment rights are
suspended from everyone at the border and within 100 miles of the border.

~~~
grecy
>applies to any person inside the US.

When detained at a border, a person is not considered inside the US.

>Theoretically, the constitution applies to all people in the united states
jurisdiction

That is absolutely not correct. When I enter the USA on the visa waiver
program, it very, very clearly says I have no rights while in the USA. No
right to a lawyer, no right to appeal, no right to anything. I must sign that
to be allowed in.

~~~
vidarh
> That is absolutely not correct. When I enter the USA on the visa waiver
> program, it very, very clearly says I have no rights while in the USA. No
> right to a lawyer, no right to appeal, no right to anything.

No, it does not.

I've traveled to the US on the visa waiver program around 20 times or so, and
your claim sounded bizarre, so I actually checked the form to see whether I
could truly have misremembered it that badly.

The visa waiver - form I-94W contains _no_ language even remotely as extreme
as what you portray it as.

It does contain a waiver of rights that states that you waive any right to
appeal or review a US CBP officials determination of whether or not to admit
you, or to contest deportation other than on grounds of a request for asylum.

In other words, you only waive rights related to preventing them from refusing
you entry and sending you back. Once you're in, you're still subject to most
of the the same protections.

------
gabaix
All I can wish you is great success wherever you are. You can wait for a
couple of months before coming back. Try a H1B for November 1.

------
jackcviers
Is it just me, or have we become the Evil Empire Reagan warned us about?

~~~
joering1
no worries: every empire fall before (you can downvote me now)

------
lwat
If this guy showed up at Australia's border with no return flight, incorrect
visa and everything else he screwed up, I'd wager he'd have the same
experience.

Do your homework, be a smart traveler!

~~~
grecy
I'm Australian, so I see where you are coming from.

Living here in Canada, so close to the border with the USA, it's totally
different. It's so close and easy, I drive to Alaska twice a month in the
summer just to get good Thai food.

And from my own experience I can tell you this - he may have been denied entry
to Aus or at least had a few issues, but I'll bet my bottom dollar he wouldn't
have been belittled and made to feel like the scum of the earth for hours and
hours.

~~~
joenathan
He wasn't just popping in for some "Thai food" though, he was going to be
staying for 3 months, he should have been better prepared.

edit: Too add that especially after 9/11 and all the border fervor, it
unreasonable to not be prepared when crossing.

~~~
bigiain
"3 to 4 months" according to the original article - I don't know what the
usual thing to allow casual visits by Canadians to the US is, but I travel
there from Australia fairly regularly for vacation and visiting family and
friends under the visa waiver program, and I know I'm limited to 90 days - if
I want to stay longer than that I need to get a visa.

------
georgieporgie
How did this guy start a business in the US, as a Canadian? I know there are
proxy services where you are a minority shareholder, but that wasn't
mentioned.

If you start a business, you _are_ an employee of that business. People who
say, "I'm self employed," are technically wrong. They are actually employed by
the business they started.

It's sad that the border between the US and Canada isn't as wonderfully open
as it once was. I, myself, have been annoyed by border agents (particularly
when arriving late at night on a bicycle, for a poorly-planned trip down the
Pacific coast). However, this guy just walked into it _soo_ badly. It's like
he didn't give a moment's thought to the fact he was _entering another
country_ to conduct his business.

By the way, always arrive in a country with either return airfare or a
printout of bank balances to show you can support yourself for the duration of
your stay.

~~~
btbuilder
Anyone can start an LLC, there's no restriction. There's no law that says a
foreigner can't own majority shares in US companies (apart from airlines).

You aren't necessary an employee of a company you start. If you aren't on the
payroll, you aren't an employee. If you start a company, then take profits as
dividends, you aren't an employee. You may not even be working as you might
just be an investor with a bunch of smart nationals you want to hire.

None of this has anything to do with immigration. You might or might not be
'working' but that has nothing to do with being an employee. 'Working'
includes working for free.

I know someone who came to the US for 6 months on a B1 visa after explaining
to the US embassy he would be 'meeting with engineers', 'negotiating contract'
and 'communicating with team back in home country'. This is not working, this
is a 'business visit'.

On top of this these are perfectly fine reasons for certain nationals (think
western Europe) while someone from India would very likely be declined.

~~~
georgieporgie
_Anyone can start an LLC, there's no restriction_

I believe that is false. In order to start a company, you need a federal
employer ID number. In order to get an EIN, you need an officer who has a
social security number.

I believe you are talking about a setup where a lawyer is the principal
officer of your company and has agreed to defer to you. This is nothing at all
like starting a company within your own state, as a US citizen, which is a
simple and (generally) inexpensive affair.

 _You aren't necessary an employee of a company you start._

In fact, you are. If you perform any services, you are an employee of the
company, regardless of how you are compensated.

I would give you a link, but it's from a Nolo Press book. And no offense, but
I trust Nolo Press more than I trust you. :-)

~~~
btbuilder
Always talk to a lawyer :)

LLCs can be pass-through entities or corporations.

EIN application is not a requirement for all company structures. See
'disregarded entities' or single member LLCs. Resident single members can use
their SSN instead of an EIN though that's not normally a good idea as it
erodes limited liability. In this case, and in the case of a partnership, you
are definitely not an employee in the eyes of the IRS.

Any foreign corporation can be a member of an LLC. In a single member
configuration the LLC would have zero US filing requirement.

------
melvinng
If you are from Waterloo, presumably you went to UWaterloo. Don't they teach
you what to say at the border?

