
Microsoft backs Epic in court filing - colinprince
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-53888087
======
notafraudster
Dupe of:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24253943](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24253943)
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24257455](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24257455)

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giancarlostoro
For those who missed it this is the quote that matters here:

> In an escalation, Apple then said it would pull Epic's access to developer
> tools on iOS and Mac.

> But Microsoft said this would damage a "critical technology" for many third-
> party game creators.

> That is because Epic also owns the Unreal Engine - a tool widely used by
> developers from other studios to build games, virtual-reality VR experiences
> and special effects in major television shows and films.

> Microsoft uses the technology itself.

YIKES, how much longer is this going to go on?

~~~
stingraycharles
I may be missing the point, but does this imply that no games based on the
Unreal engine could be developed for Mac anymore, as Epic themselves will be
unable to develop for it / support it?

~~~
yegle
It means they cannot fix breakages before a new version of iOS/macOS is
generally available, and they won't have access to the new ARM CPU devkit
that's critical to port their engine to ARM based macOS.

~~~
giancarlostoro
This is what I'm taking it as. They probably have special access in order to
get their engine ready for the latest iOS updates. This move on Apple's part
is very abusive. People elsewhere in the thread are comparing Microsoft, but
Microsoft wouldn't cripple developer tools because an app from a vendor abused
its guidelines. Any store willing to do this has gone too far.

~~~
pwinnski
This does seems like an abusive move by Apple.

I note that Epic continues to provide a version of Fortnite that violates the
rules and provides the ability to buy in-game currency at a lower price
through their own store, and has filed legal papers requesting that Apple be
forced to support this while the court case proceeds.

This seems like an abusive move by Epic.

Two wrong don't make a right, but it's tough to see how this isn't a direct
result of Epic's actions, and more to the point, something Epic could fix in
less than an hour by turning off their violating store.

Turn it back when/if you win the court case, Epic. Right now it seems like you
bet that Apple wouldn't call your bluff, and you lost. They did.

~~~
john-shaffer
Epic had a lawsuit and an advertisement already prepared. They were not
bluffing, and they were very confident that Apple would "call" them.

~~~
pwinnski
About Fortnite, sure. About their entire account, that seems to have surprised
them.

Fortunately for Epic, last night the court agreed that is likely a step too
far.

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jtsiskin
This is pretty funny because Xbox has the same store restrictions (impossible
to install from another source, all games approved by them, takes a revenue
percentage) Apple does.

~~~
addicted
I know this is a popular rebuttal, but are video games consoles really
comparable to phones, which are nothing but general purpose computers?

~~~
akersten
What is the difference between the capabilities of the console hardware and
the phone hardware? The console hardware is actually more powerful. PS3's were
used as general purpose computers until Sony removed OtherOS functionality.

This is nothing but defensive "don't sue us next" posturing by Microsoft.
Consoles are just as general purpose as a phone. The only difference is the
software veneer running on top.

~~~
pkaye
Those game systems allows purchasing from physical stores. Does Apple allow
that?

~~~
akersten
It's an unimportant distinction.

It doesn't matter that you got your Microsoft-store approved copy of Gears of
War from Gamestop instead of the Microsoft app store. MS still gets their cut,
and that application still had to be approved by them.

The core similarity to iOS and Apple's app store is: Third party applications
cannot run on the Xbox without Microsoft review, approval, and fee. It doesn't
matter that it's a physical copy or not. You, an independent developer, can't
just create an Xbox game and get it running without MS approval, no matter
whether you wanted to sell it on the app store _or_ as a physical copy.

~~~
pkaye
How does this compare to Google? You can develop your own app and side load
it. And you can have third part app stores.

~~~
akersten
Yep, I'd say Google's closer to doing the right thing here comparatively,
having at least a non-terrible path to running unsigned APKs.

I would put Apple, Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo in the same bucket of "makes
hardware that can run software, but only software they approve." Whether this
is something we as a society should allow, I won't comment on, but I will say
that Epic should either have a grievance with all of them or none of them.
Microsoft and Epic are strange bedfellows and I can't see this headline as
anything other than a nervous preemption on Microsoft's part.

~~~
fomine3
I against to put smartphone platform and game console in the same bucket on
antitrust perspective because there's only two viable players in smartphone
platform market (on gaming, 3 major platforms + open PC platform + smartphone
platforms) and it's mandatory device for modern life.

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sjroot
For context, the Microsoft Store platform takes a 5% fee compared to Apple’s
30%.
[https://blogs.windows.com/windowsdeveloper/2018/05/07/a-new-...](https://blogs.windows.com/windowsdeveloper/2018/05/07/a-new-
microsoft-store-revenue-share-is-coming/)

This isn’t super surprising. Microsoft is desperate to get people to develop
for the Windows platform and this obviously an incentive that developers will
find attractive.

~~~
twodave
Are Windows PC gaming and the XBOX line in such a decline that they could be
described as desperate? I really doubt it, but I'm having trouble finding data
to back up either argument.

~~~
cptskippy
I believe he was referring to the Store on Windows platforms, not Xbox
platforms. The Windows Store has games but Microsoft never made a fight
against Steam the way Epic has.

~~~
criddell
What's the difference between the Windows store and XBox store? Is the revenue
split different? Are there different requirements for selling on Windows and
XBox?

~~~
cptskippy
The Windows Store is exclusively for Windows devices and the Xbox store is for
Xbox devices.

~~~
criddell
Is the XBox Store available for anybody to sell in, or do you have to have a
relationship with Microsoft?

~~~
cptskippy
I mean if you're selling in either store you have a relationship with
Microsoft.

They have completely different ToS.

~~~
criddell
I was under the impression that the XBox store was much more difficult to get
into. Thanks for the clarification.

~~~
cptskippy
I'm not versed in the finer details. Initially it was difficult to get into
the Xbox store but then Microsoft started catering to Indie developers and
smaller games.

They've rebranded the Xbox Store and Windows Store to both just be the
Microsoft Store and content you purchase them (e.g. Movies, Music, TV) is
shared between the two. Some Games are "Xbox Play Anywhere" which means you
can play them on Windows 10 or Xbox (e.g. Forza Horizon 4) but others are
exclusive to either platform (e.g. Flight Simulator). Some games can be
purchased for either platform individually (e.g. Halo).

Then you have the weirdness that Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020 is published
by Xbox Game Studios but only available on Windows 10.

------
wayneftw
I wonder what car manufacturing companies think about all of this?

In my state and I think in much of the US, we're not allowed to buy directly
from the car manufacturer. I never liked that law because I don't like car
dealerships, but now I'm beginning to see why those laws that keep car
dealerships in business might have passed.

~~~
stingraycharles
> In my state and I think in much of the US, we're not allowed to buy directly
> from the car manufacturer.

Huh, what, in what way is that law a good thing?

~~~
dylan604
If you're a dealership, it's an amazing thing.

This is why you cannot buy a Tesla in TX.

------
mandeeeeeep
Microsoft seems to be doing everything they can to push everyone to writing
platform agnostic software:

1\. Game streaming, which opens the doors to app streaming

2\. Progressive Web Apps, teaming with google to create a tool to publish them
directly to the Android Play Store

3\. At one point, they created tools to port iOS and Android apps to windows
mobile

4\. Investing in React Native and Xamarin

Personally, I am not a fan since today, the quality of these apps are really
bad and give developers too much power. But seems Microsoft is trying to get a
foothold to relaunch Windows Mobile again once more apps switch over

------
throWaythxMod
Epic needs to offer a 30% discount for anyone who gets their content from
their website.

And while I'm not sure if you can side load on Apple products, if you can't,
don't offer your services on Apple products. Customers will move as they
wakeup to their horrible business practices.

~~~
izacus
\- Apple forbids people from buying content on their website.

\- Apple forbids developers from mentioning that the content might be cheaper
elsewhere.

So that won't work.

~~~
eyesee
> \- Apple forbids people from buying content on their website.

Not quite. Apple forbids directing users to a web site from within your app to
sidestep in-app purchases. If you offer any digital purchases through your
app, they must use IAP.

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newbie578
Full support for Msft and Epic! Time to bring the dictator (Apple) down. And
when that day arrives, it will be a tragedy on HN since tears will be shed by
Apple fanboys. Hint: You cannot support anti-competitive practices because you
like your Mac :)

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mikewhy
Part of me wonders if this is Microsoft just trying to align with Epic, in the
cast that the courts do side with Epic, who in turn use that ruling against
Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo.

~~~
Okawari
I wonder if it is because they believe that their cloud gaming platform will
be more lucrative than XBox in a few years and think that not having to pay
apple the 30% and still have access to the iOS userbase will be more
profitable.

I for one wouldn't mind if this case ended up forcing Apple to loosen their
restrictions in regards to sideloading and other app stores on the device.

A pipe dream, but one can hope.

------
Razengan
Does Microsoft allow any other stores on the Xbox?

What % do they take from game sales?

~~~
ameen
Yup - physical stores such as GameStop, Bestbuy, Target, etc have been selling
Xbox media for quite sometime.

~~~
criddell
That's not a very meaningful distinction. Microsoft still gets their cut and
till approves every title. An independent XBox store would remove Microsoft
from the loop.

If Epic wins in court (and I hope they do), then the consoles are next in line
to be forced open.

~~~
RealStickman_
Consoles have a very different purpose from phones. Niche gaming-focused item
vs general purpose computer (that was apple's ipad marketing at least)

~~~
criddell
Does it really matter how it's marketed? We know that an XBox is mostly a
Windows PC. There's all kinds of software I'd like to load onto an XBox-like
device. A PC in the living room connected to a large TV has a lot of
potential. I'd like to write software for it and I'm sure I'm not alone.

------
EdwinLarkin
I hope we can also get rid of VAT. I dont want to pay the 20% on everything
because my government cant manage things more efficiently.

You say I should just move to a country with a lower VAT? Yeah not that easy.

I dont condone apple on what they are doing with their platform but you need
to understand that Apple sets a standard and that standard costs money.

