
Wal-Mart will pay employees to deliver packages on their way home - bko
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-01/wal-mart-taps-employees-for-quick-deliveries-to-take-on-amazon
======
matt_wulfeck
> _Workers can opt in to earn extra money by making deliveries using their own
> cars. They’re assigned packages based on where they live so the route aligns
> with their commute home_

The headline makes it sound coercive but that actually sounds like an
efficient use of time and energy (less big trucks on the road, less miles
driven, more money for people who want it).

I wouldn't mind dropping a few things off on my way home and earning a few
extra bucks as long as it made sense financially. I'm very interested to see
what incentive they have for it.

~~~
leggomylibro
Ugh. I think that this sort of attitude (which was my initial reaction too) is
a big part of what's wrong with our current economy.

If you take the concept at face value, this is Walmart offering to let their
employees make some extra money in exchange for a bit of extra work, once
they've clocked out. What a nice company.

But realistically, this is Walmart shunting the costs of delivery onto their
employees. Instead of paying their employees a living wage, or offering
benefits befitting a delivery driver, they can offset all of the risk,
deprecation costs, etc associated with delivering a package all for the low
cost of what amounts to a tiny raise in their existing payroll.

Walmart chooses what they pay their associates, and what hours they get. So
it's not really appropriate for them to start becoming arbiters of
opportunities to make extra money "outside of work." This is shady as all
hell.

~~~
SilasX
You don't think you're jumping the gun here, maybe? Do you even know what the
compensation will be?

>Instead of paying their employees a living wage, or offering benefits
befitting a delivery driver,

Obviously you can criticize Walmart's current practices. The issue is whether
_this policy_ is any worse than what they had before.

>they can offset all of the risk, deprecation costs, etc associated with
delivering a package all for the low cost of what amounts to a tiny raise in
their existing payroll.

Do you give the same objection to every other company that pays for mileage
for work-related travel? Is that also "shunting off depreciation costs"?

Why are you assuming that they won't have an insurance policy for such
deliveries or pay for mileage like every other company?

Edit: clarified which part was responding to what

~~~
zorked
> You don't think you're jumping the gun here, maybe? Do you even know what
> the compensation will be?

Walmart is known for high wages.

~~~
choward
Before graduating college, the most money I made was working for Walmart at a
distribution center. I made $19.20 an hour which was pretty good considering
minimum wage was just over $5.

~~~
rbanffy
Can anyone actually live on $40 a day?

~~~
Consultant32452
At least 80% of humans live on $10 per day or less.

[http://www.globalissues.org/article/26/poverty-facts-and-
sta...](http://www.globalissues.org/article/26/poverty-facts-and-stats)

~~~
SilasX
The parent meant _in the area where Walmart etc are paying that wage_.

~~~
Consultant32452
Okay, then since the Walmart employees are still alive, the answer is yes.
They can live on $40/day. As an added bonus, they have a higher standard of
living than the vast majority of humans on the planet.

~~~
__jal
Well, no. If they could, they wouldn't be receiving assistance.

Walmart has turned, e.g., food assistance programs into a subsidy for
themselves.

~~~
Consultant32452
If you can imagine a world in which food assistance programs suddenly came to
an end, would Wal-Mart raise its wages? Perhaps the workers would demand more.
Either way, in the long run it's not possible for any employer to pay wages
below the basic survival rate.

~~~
dragonwriter
> Either way, in the long run it's not possible for any employer to pay wages
> below the basic survival rate.

Sure it is, if they are willing to accept more rapid turnover and the workers
they are competing for have no better offers.

~~~
Consultant32452
How long do you honestly believe an employer can sustain a business providing
wages insufficient to purchase food to provide the calories necessary to
complete the work?

~~~
__jal
You are attempting to recast the question to looking at median subsistence-
rates worldwide. The Walmart workers we are discussing work in communities in
the U.S.

Certainly, some folks in the world survive on $1/day. That doesn't work in the
U.S.

We know that Walmart wages are insufficient alone, because workers there tell
us that they need, for instance, SNAP to feed their kids.

Thus SNAP is, in part, now a subsidy to Walmart.

~~~
Consultant32452
The point of this discussion is to shine a light on how ignorant the OP's
question was. The original question was whether a person could live off
$40/day. But that's not what OP really _meant_ was it? What they meant to ask
was whether or not a person could live OP's approximate standard of living on
$40/day. And the answer to that is obviously not. If you make more than
$34k/yr you're in the global 1%. Virtually no one on the planet lives at the
OP's standard of living. The question only shows the OP's hubris.

SNAP is a subsidy for every industry that sells products that people on SNAP
might purchase. Every dollar not spent on food is another dollar someone might
collect in rent, or cell phone service, or clothing. Wal-Mart may benefit
greatly from SNAP, but it benefits far more from its customers having more
income that they don't have to spend on subsistence than it benefits from its
employees being able to accept a lower wage. And of course Wal-Mart accepts
SNAP payments from its customers because Wal-Mart sells groceries.

~~~
__jal
> SNAP is a subsidy for every industry that sells products that people on SNAP
> might purchase

You're missing my point. SNAP is a direct subsidy to Walmart not because they
sell food, but because many of their workers cannot live where they live
without being enrolled in SNAP due to the low pay.

SNAP subsidizes Walmart by supplementing workers' paychecks.

~~~
aey
It sounds like you are suggesting that wages should be set at a minimum level
that is strictly above any government assistance. So if you have a job, you
are disqualified from any assistance what so ever, and all the government
assistance should be focused on people without jobs, essentially to bring them
to that minimum.

That's similar to what welfare was like before welfare reform in 96
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Responsibility_and_...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Responsibility_and_Work_Opportunity_Act)

------
yourapostasy
Questions I haven't seen answered yet:

* Employee gets a destination with no parking available, who gets dinged for non-delivery?

* Employee gets a destination with no parking available, but is told to double-park by local manager. Gets ticketed. Who gets dinged?

* Does this constitute a non-CDL delivery service, or courier service? Will Wal-Mart handle licensing and insurance coverage of personal employee vehicles?

* What exactly constitutes "on their way"? A block out of their way? Several kilometers out of their way?

* What guarantees are in place that the definition of "on their way" isn't expanded without due consideration in the future?

* Is the compensation piece work, or based upon time? If piece work as implied by the 10-package maximum, and an unforeseen traffic stoppage takes up employee's time, does employee have flexibility to bail on delivery and do some shopping while waiting for stoppage to clear? If there is no such flexibility, I can practically count upon the absence of "surge compensation".

* Do recipients have the option to view a picture of employee and vehicle, with map showing location as delivery draws near, ensuring security and privacy?

* Employee slips on stairs while walking down them after completing last delivery on way to their car, breaks a leg. Is this covered by worker's compensation, or is employee on their own?

* Employee is assaulted by dog/perp while making delivery. Who pays?

This is a laudable effort, I like the general idea, but this is all but
guaranteed open to worker abuses in the future as management "optimizes" it,
in a "pray I don't alter it further"-fashioned deal. I don't expect Wal-Mart
stocker staff for example, to think of these and many other contingencies when
signing up, for which they will almost certainly be hung out to dry if their
number comes up.

~~~
vkou
Now, if only there was some sort of way to force Wal-mart to answer these
kinds of questions. Maybe... A union of employees, who want to understand
their relationship with their employer better, and to push back on unfair
parts of said relationship.

~~~
ythn
If you don't understand why businesses don't like unions, you've never owned a
business. Also, historically, unions in the USA for whatever reason a lot of
times end up becoming mafioso (not sure if it's the same in other countries).

~~~
rectang
Yet without unions, employees are on their own to evaluate the non-obvious
risks and hidden costs in deals such as this one. It's massive information
asymmetry leading inevitably to exploitation; it's far from the ideal of
perfect information and distorts the labor marketplace, leading to huge
inefficiencies in the labor economy.

We desperately need innovation in how labor unions are structured and compete
with each other to reduce the drag they impose while keeping the benefit they
provide.

~~~
qmarchi
There are (was) unions around Walmart, however, historically, they're just
massive cash grabs operating in locations where unionization is favorable and
can be forced.

------
losteverything
As a professional delivery worker and an employee of the everyone-hates
retailer i have this view:

This is an experiment. Only. Lore has said that 75% of delivery cost is labor
related.

Wal-Mart is insane about not working off the clock. They won't force
associates to do this.

From the delivery aspect:

When we get a new delivery person they suck for months. There are so many
variables that make failure probable: unmarked addresses; multiple units;
obstacles (including dogs); access; daylight; wrong address labels; "who gives
a sh#t" attitude ("i just cant return with my delivery"); scanning failures

Plus. Ups fedex and usps are trusted with access-walking on peoples properties
without question.

Imo lore is good at pushing things and this test will be called off.

~~~
petra
Interesting view.

You mention many problems.

Most of them can be solved with data gathering - what's this unmarked address,
which is the relevant unit, what the right access path, which workers do and
don't give a shit, etc.

and with the right app, and so many employees, you can gather all that data
relatively fast, assuming some repeat orders.

Heck, maybe do that with augmented reality via phone, to make it dead simple.

Also, if the employee still can find where to go, some sort of remote help
from another employee can be had.

~~~
losteverything
Turn by turn directions are used sundays for Amazon. Gps in the scanner
screams at the deliverer if the address is "far away" (eg 2.5 miles from
location) like instead of 25 Hickory trail they are at 25 hickory lane or 25
highland st.

And still carriers get it wrong. Every Sunday.

Remote help from another employee? First, if that other employee is off the
clock they cant help.

Repeat knowledge of family/address makes success.

~~~
williamscales
I think it's also a worker quality issue. FedEx has never had an issue finding
my apartment, being on time and the package has never "just disappeared but we
swear it was delivered!"

UPS or USPS? Not so much. I'm in the Bay Area but I've noticed the same trend
in both Vancouver and the Denver area so I do think it could be a widespread
thing. The UPS people just don't seem to care as much or be as competent as
the FedEx people.

------
santoshalper
The discomfort I have with this is that Wal-Mart has a long history of
sensible corporate policies (seriously, Wal-Mart at the corporate level has
been surprisingly progressive on a lot of issues) that turn into draconian
mandates by regional or store managers who are under intense pressure to
maximize profit-per-employee. This just sounds like another good idea by
corporate that will inevitably be crammed down workers throats.

~~~
Uehreka
I don't think corporate gets a pass on this. If they were serious about
creating a more progressive workplace, they could change the incentive schemes
for managers or fire managers who don't comply with the spirit of their
policies.

------
djrogers
FTA: "Workers can opt in to earn extra money by making deliveries using their
own cars. They’re assigned packages based on where they live so the route
aligns with their commute home"

This sounds like a really good strategy - Walmart has thousands of locations
and hundreds of thousands of people driving home form those locations. If they
can leverage that into some efficiencies in the delivery chain, for either
faster or cheaper delivery, that'd be awesome for them and their e-commerce
customers.

------
david927
What are the liability concerns for this? If they get in a car crash on their
way home, does Wal-Mart pay? And if not, why not?

To me, personally, this smacks of late-stage capitalism. How long until
"voluntary and paid" becomes "coerced and paid little"?

~~~
rectang
It's all about corporate entities with massive analysis resources using
information asymmetry to offload risk onto individuals who are not in a
position to understand what they are agreeing to.

ETA: Yep, insurance costs are on the workers. From
[https://techcrunch.com/2017/06/01/walmart-begins-testing-
usi...](https://techcrunch.com/2017/06/01/walmart-begins-testing-using-store-
staff-for-last-mile-deliveries/) :

    
    
        Workers also have to submit to additional background
        checks, motor vehicle record inspections and provide
        proof of insurance.

~~~
pembrook
This hits it right on the head. Wal-mart has all the data and resources to
analyze it for efficiency opportunities. Not only that, they also have have
the marketing muscle to "brand" this program internally and make it seem
appealing to their lowest wage workers.

Meanwhile, the average Wal-mart worker (many of whom are actually on food
stamps and struggling to get by) has none of the resources or education or
even time to properly evaluate this deal. No single mother with a high-school
level education holding down 2 jobs to feed her family is going to have the
time to properly discount the statistical increases to risk of injury;
vehicular accidents and the subsequent insurance premium increases; the myriad
of vehicle-related depreciation costs; the fuel consumption implications; the
increased risk of encountering crime; etc.

Ultimately, the power and incentive structures at play here are _inevitably_
going to lean toward exploitation in the absence of protections being built in
to the program.

~~~
rectang
Something I really hope to understand better is what opportunities we have to
improve the efficiency of the labor economy, so that labor resources are
allocated according to better information. This would drive down the margins
of exploitative companies, while improving the efficiency of the economy as a
whole.

I'd like to think that such an approach is compatible with a "left-
libertarian" marketplace-friendly outlook.

------
Nelkins
Fun fact: the mobile app for associate delivery was written in F# using
Xamarin.

Source: I work at Jet, but not on this team.

~~~
wehadfun
Why F#?

~~~
Nelkins
[https://tech.jet.com/blog/2015/03-22-on-how-jet-
chose/](https://tech.jet.com/blog/2015/03-22-on-how-jet-chose/)

The app for associate delivery was written by Jet developers. Pretty much all
of Jet's code is written in F#.

Edit: Actually I think it was written mostly by a contractor who had
experience writing Xamarin apps in F#, possibly with contributions from full-
time Jet developers.

~~~
qmarchi
You in the WM Slack?

------
nugget
It took Wal-Mart a long time to wake up and realize they have one of the
largest captive workforces in the world (and that there's a lot of untapped
on-demand value therein). Great move on their part to start experimenting with
this.

------
TACIXAT
I think my biggest complaint is that someone making minimum wager or near
minimum wage will value money above their time, so many will take this
opportunity. Most will take up any reasonable opportunity to earn a few extra
dollars. However, this takes away from time that could be spent with family or
used to better their skills. The working poor are in a tough position and this
program takes advantage of that.

~~~
GhostVII
Why is it our job to determine how much time they chose to spend working? It
seems kind of condescending to say that we shouldn't give them the choice to
make a bit more money because we think they should spend more time with their
families.

~~~
TACIXAT
I think my point is that they are given the choice, knowing that it is a
choice they do not have the luxury to pass up. Just a frustrating situation
that these employees will then continue to work outside of their normal work
hours. I'm sure many will be grateful for the extra money, I'm sure many pick
up shifts or maybe drive for a ride hailing service on the side. That is time
they're not building a relationship with their kids, helping them succeed in
school, etc. That sucks. It's a shitty situation.

------
kstrauser
Sure, I don't mind running errands during my commute so long as that time's on
the clock.

~~~
Avshalom
Can pretty well guarantee the fine print includes that they are acting as
private contractors while delivering. Walmart isn't going to risk employees
becoming full-time because of bad traffic.

------
swanson
Sam Walton, in the early days of WalMart, got a pilot's license so he could
fly between store locations (vs a much slower commute by car). He noticed
while flying that he could see traffic patterns and scout out new store
locations for his expanding business. I think Sam would be proud that the same
out-of-the-box, resourceful thinking is still happening today.

------
ensiferum
Nice one, They could also ask them to drive to work on their days off to pick
up some deliveries ;-)

~~~
wyldfire
_shrug_ the natural instinct seems to be to skewer WalMart for oppressing
their employees but this seems like a good idea to me.

> Workers can opt in to earn extra money by making deliveries using their own
> cars. They’re assigned packages based on where they live so the route aligns
> with their commute home, the company said Thursday in a blog post. Wal-Mart
> didn’t specify how the employees will be compensated.

It's not uncompensated -- so it could be really symbiotic.

~~~
ensiferum
"Wal-Mart didn’t specify how the employees will be compensated."

They can be compensated by a coffee voucher. Or compensated by the joy and
feelings of accomplishment they'll derive from their new work tasks.

Just saying.

Seriously tho, if they get into an accident delivering the packages is that
something that'll get covered by Walmart? How about the wear and tear on the
vehicle?

It really seems like it's a better deal for Wallmart. A handy way to offload
delivery costs to the workers for a small compensation.

~~~
ianai
Of course it's a better deal for Walmart. This is Walmarts thing to do or not
do. They're the biggest party in the negotiation. They will always dictate
terms that benefit them at their workers expense. It's negotiation 101.

------
tuna-piano
Amazon has a program, "Fulfillment By Amazon", where you can pay Amazon
$2.50-$4.00 to pick, pack and ship an item for you[1]. Would Wal-Mart be
better off just paying Amazon than paying all the people involved in its
process? I'd imagine Wal-Mart is paying its people at least $3 per delivery,
in addition to paying the people in its stores to pick/pack the item...

Does turning Wal-Mart stores into distribution centers and retail employees
into pickers and delivery people beat dedicated DC's and delivery people? I'd
guess not.

[1][https://services.amazon.com/fulfillment-by-
amazon/pricing.ht...](https://services.amazon.com/fulfillment-by-
amazon/pricing.htm/ref=asus_fba_snav_p)

~~~
colechristensen
WalMart is trying to compete with Amazon at the logistics business, not give
them more.

Wal-Mart's business isn't just stores, it's their whole system of product
acquisition, inventory, distribution, etc. The store is just the frontend.
They don't want to retreat into just being distributors, they want to expand
into front-door delivery.

------
HarryHirsch
Does anyone remember Parcelnet from Britain 15 years ago? It was mums and
retired people delivering packages for several retailers, and it was a
complete disaster. Your orders just wouldn't show up. That's on top of the
sharing economy exploitation.

------
lightbyte
Maybe this is just me, but I wouldn't want some random person that lives near
me to know what I'm ordering from Walmart and have them hand deliver it to me.

~~~
stevenwoo
Just because they have the uniform and the truck of a brand you might trust,
doesn't mean that person is a decent person. This happened recently in Silicon
Valley of all places. [http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/05/23/hayward-man-
charged-wi...](http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/05/23/hayward-man-charged-with-
committing-3-burglaries-in-atherton-menlo-park/)

------
eganist
Interesting detail I haven't seen mentioned here:

There's not just added income per delivery (or whatever model Walmart chooses
to employ here); there's also the tax write-offs employees can take on mileage
driven between their Walmart location and the final delivery stop assuming
that mileage hasn't been specifically covered by Walmart directly.

Can an accountant check me here? My thinking is this also helps with commuting
costs for quite a number of low-wage employees.

------
antihero
Who assumes liability? If they fall foul of some regulation (using their cars
as commercial vehicles), will Wallmart have their backs?

~~~
colechristensen
In any lawsuit against the driver, Wal-Mart would also be named as a
defendant. It might be that enough of these types of things will have to
happen before local laws regulate this sort of non-traditional thing.

------
Taylor_OD
My initial guy reaction is that this is really weird and I wouldnt want my
package to be delivered by a stranger. Then I remembered my packages are
already delivered by people I dont know. It seems like a nice way for Wal-Mart
to cut down on shipping costs and a good way for their employees to pick up a
little extra cash.

------
bsiemon
UPS/FedEx drivers make decent salaries. I wonder how much base pay impacts
desire to steal obviously valuable packages. For a Walmart employee the pay is
much lower but they will end up with the same knowledge of where/when packages
arrive.

~~~
stevenwoo
If someone wants to steal something, they aren't going to steal what they just
delivered (mostly they are not that stupid) - people already do that just
cruising neighborhoods that they do not live in - it's enough of a problem
that vids pop up every month on reddit. Real thieves would be casing houses
and figuring out which one would be worth burglarizing.

------
menacingly
I'm a fan of the idea, but unless the data is completely hidden from local
management, it's difficult to imagine this not being mandatory in practice. No
matter what the posters in the breakrooms say.

------
amelius
Will they, from now on, hire people strategically based on where they live?

------
nnutter
Next step could be to use employees homes, cars, etc. as a distribution of
drone base stations.

------
logfromblammo
As long as you pay me at least $0.54/mile, pay me my regular wage for the
entire time spent driving, and insure me and my vehicle until I get home, I
would have no problem with this.

That said, I doubt Wal-Mart would be avoiding dedicated delivery drivers if
they intended to do all that.

------
michaelmrose
Having worked for walmart I fully expect many walmarts to have a goal for buy
in to this program and employees to be pressured to make deliveries without
compensation.

They are the worst company I have ever worked for, just bad people.

------
rbanffy
So... Will they lay off their delivery drivers?

------
SurrealSoul
Looks like some internal manager won their "Its like uber but with packages"
pitch.

I wonder how self-driving cars will leave my mail on my doorstep in a couple
years

------
eiji
a) How many employee commute routes will map to affluent delivery buyers? b)
More none-descriptive cars and persons in residential neighborhoods knocking
on doors, waiting to be shot through the closed door. (I'm not even kidding.)

------
ge96
What package? haha

------
Ensorceled
My hate for Wal-Mart is white hot, but this is a very uncharitable headline.
This would have been better:

"Wal-Mart will pay employees to deliver packages on their way home"

~~~
dang
Ok, we'll use that. Thanks!

~~~
Ensorceled
Now, I just have to get Bloomberg to update their original article ...

