
American Dream is Elusive for New Generation - rmundo
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/07/business/economy/07generation.html?hp=&pagewanted=print
======
francoisdevlin
This kid that turned down a 40K a year gig for something "perfect" is an idiot
that deserves what he gets.

The first thing I would do if I was looking for a job is... get a job. ANY
job. I've got an engineering degree, and I'd start flipping burgers or hauling
trash or whatever just to keep working. THEN I would start looking for a more
suitable career job.

It's pretty simple. As a hiring manager looking at two potential employees,
one who is "waiting for the right position" and another that is "trying to get
by", I go with the latter every time. The first guy is definitely out of touch
with reality, and the second guy is doing what it takes to get stuff done. I
want him working for me.

~~~
reader5000
Yeah they could have picked a more sympathetic subject.

~~~
bbwharris
I recall another story about a girl who attended NYU and has a mountain of
debt and can't find work.

At the end of the article it stated her major, and it wasn't something that
was marketable in today's economy.

Which sounds slightly arrogant. As a reader, I can see the mistakes made. The
reality in any economy is that a womens studies graduate from NYU is going to
have more difficulty finding work than say an engineering graduate from a
state university.

If the goals for employment are self-actualization, then be prepared for a
hunt in the beginning. If the goals are to earn a paycheck - any paycheck,
then there is plenty of work out there.

I am afraid that a lot of people in my generation have a very strong sense of
entitlement.

~~~
mattm
I think there is much more pressure on young people today (me being one of
them) that you must be doing what your love or working on your passion.

While good advice, some young people don't realise that this is good long-term
advice. It's something you should work towards over a number of years. It is a
very big mistake to close doors that may not offer the perfect path. I have
some friends like this who seem to want the perfect job right away so they
pass up other opportunities even though they could lead to it in the future.

~~~
commandar
There is also a lot more pressure on young people today to go amass piles of
debt acquiring a college degree that _they do not need_.

The stigma against trade and vocational educations in this country needs to
die, otherwise we're going to just keep starting people off at a bigger
disadvantage than they need be for very little good reason.

~~~
aliston
I agree -- and going one step further, WITHIN higher education, there seems to
be somewhat of a stigma against training for real-world, hands-on,
applications. I was pretty lucky to attend a college that encouraged students
to work on projects that could become viable products... but from what I hear
from friends, it was the exception.

~~~
commandar
Just to provide another data point from my own college experience, I actually
ended up dropping out from my school because I got fed up with the fact that
their program focused _too much_ on application.

This is a school whose computer science curriculum circa 2004 still included
COBOL because one of the major employers in my area is the banking industry.
(Coincidentally, the CS building carries the name of one of the big names in
that field here).

CS is a field where the theory end of things are often the most important
thing you could take away long term, so having that kind of focus on tools in
general (let alone ones that are hopeless obsolete for most purposes) is just
insane.

Like everything else in life, it's all about balance. That said, I can't blame
academia too much for erring on the side of theory.

~~~
aliston
I agree with what you're saying -- I thoroughly enjoyed the pure theory
classes as part of the CS curriculum. I also agree that it is more important
to teach concepts than specific technologies. That said, I think there are
schools that fail to teach concepts as well... things like working as part of
a team, using source control and designing a product modularly and writing
code which would be considered "production quality." There's a tendency to put
those things off because it is "just for a school project."

------
InclinedPlane
This article is insulting, this is not the American dream. The American dream
has never been about the pampered children of the elite working their way
through subsidized higher education and finding exactly the right job just out
of college with no experience.

The American dream is about working your ass off and scrambling your way up
the ladder. It's about entrepreneurism and opportunity. It's about hard work
and determination paying off over time. Andrew Carnegie's first job earned
lower wages than working at McDonald's would today, he became wealthy not
because he sat around like a sad sack waiting for his pre-conceived dream job
to come to him while he was sitting around in his parent's house, he became
wealthy because he sought out opportunities and took advantage of what he
could. Like many highly successful people he worked his way through several
careers.

The American dream isn't about the guy in this article, it's about the guy
down the street starting a lawn care business with a rented lawnmower who uses
hard work and sound judgment to build it into a landscaping company with its
own office and several employees. It's about the other guy who builds an
online business in his free time and works days, evenings, and weekends in
order to make his dream reality. It's about the opportunity to work your way
from nothing up to a comfortable living if you're willing to put in the elbow
grease. That dream is as alive as ever, and with the low-overhead of internet
based businesses if anything it's seeing a rebirth.

~~~
crux_
> That dream is as alive as ever

While I agree that the article chose the wrong focus, I think you're wrong.
Look at the American Dream on a societal level: while there will continue to
be outliers, the fact is that today's younger generations are doing worse than
their parents by many measures.

How on earth is that "as alive as ever"?

(More abstractly: I think the whole American Dream thing is a destructive
myth, due specifically to its fixation on "elbow grease" at the expense of the
many, many, other factors that play into success.)

~~~
InclinedPlane
I think that the degree to which younger generations are "doing worse" is due
to upbringing and work-ethic far more than it is due to opportunity. Today's
younger generations start working later, work less, stay at home longer, spend
a lot more time pursuing vanity educations with no economic value, have out of
control spending habits, and are generally bad with money management.

And even then most "younger generations" live much easier and more wealthy
lives than previous generations. They still have cable TV, the internet, cell
phones, cars, prepared food, etc, etc, etc.

Every single person I've seen with drive, a good work-ethic, and sound
financial sense has gotten ahead quickly in America, even if they never
achieved any education beyond a high school diploma. That doesn't mean they
all become millionaires, it just means they achieved financial stability and
have significant control over their career path.

~~~
crux_
> And even then most "younger generations" live much easier and more wealthy
> lives than previous generations. They still have cable TV, the internet,
> cell phones, cars, prepared food, etc, etc, etc.

Don't conflate access to luxuries with wealth. Very few will pay off their
mortgages as quickly as their parents, retire as early, raise a family of
their own as easily, or weather more difficult times as smoothly.

It remains true even if this is due to (to paraphrase your words) a
generational gumption shortage; regardless of cause, it looks like the
American Dream is fading away.

~~~
anamax
> Don't conflate access to luxuries with wealth. Very few will pay off their
> mortgages as quickly as their parents, retire as early, raise a family of
> their own as easily, or weather more difficult times as smoothly.

They're trading luxuries for wealth. In other words, they're trading luxury
consumption now for house payments later.

It's unclear why that choice is somehow unfortunate. More to the point - the
ones who don't make it are in the same position as their parents.

~~~
crux_
If I could trade an iPhone for a house, I would. You're blatantly
misrepresenting the scale of these things in order to equate them.

~~~
InclinedPlane
iPhone: $200 + $70/mo + apps & accessories, call it roughly $1k/year

internet/cable: $50-100/mo, call it roughly $1k/year too

gaming: $250 xbox 360 or ps3 every 4ish years, plus maybe a $60 game every 3
months, call it $300/year

entertainment: 10 DVDs a year at $15 each, a movie in the theater every month
at $10 a pop, call it $300/year

eating out: $20 including tax and tip every week, call it $1k/year

car payment: a cheap car, only $150/mo, call it $1800/year.

These are just SWAGs, but they are relatively conservative SWAGs compared to
the way most 20-somethings live today. Nevertheless, add it all up and you get
$4-5k of money spent a year on relative luxuries. Save that up and in 4 years
you have a down payment. Then roll it in with what you'd be paying for rent
and you have a mortgage payment. Keep your credit clean and you can start
paying on a 200k condo even in a big city in no time. Once you build up equity
and once your career has advanced and you're making more income you can trade
up to an even more expensive house.

This isn't rocket science, but it does take discipline and sacrifice.

~~~
crux_
There's sort of two directions to respond in here. First, you're rather
fudging the conclusion that cutting expenses to the bone has bought you a
house -- better save for double the time or end up putting 10% or less down,
which has been manifestly demonstrated in recent years to be a stupid idea.

More generally, this whole conversation has become one of minutia.

The fact is that moving ahead financially has become more difficult.
Impossible, of course not -- but the sacrifice, shrewdness, and plain dumb
luck required continue to grow.

You will have a hard time convincing me, or anyone else paying attention, that
this trend is due to some sort of society-wide age-related motivational
shortcoming, which seems to be your argument.

~~~
anamax
> More generally, this whole conversation has become one of minutia.

Getting ahead is often minutia.

> First, you're rather fudging the conclusion that cutting expenses to the
> bone has bought you a house

Actually, he didn't cut anyway near "the bone". Write down everything that you
spend money on for a month. (Yes, including vending machines.) You'll be
amazed, and you'll save a lot of money because you'll find that the benefit of
many purchases is less than the cost of writing them down.

> You will have a hard time convincing me, or anyone else paying attention,
> that this trend is due to some sort of society-wide age-related motivational
> shortcoming, which seems to be your argument.

We're not claiming that you're lacking motivation. We're claiming that you're
spending lots of money that you could spend on something else.

If you're anywhere near "hacker news typical", you're spending 2-3x as some of
your neighbors.

------
angstrom
_Rather than waste early years in dead-end work, he reasoned, he would hold
out for a corporate position that would draw on his college training and put
him, as he sees it, on the bottom rungs of a career ladder._

Prima donna. At least he hasn't been doing any 'dead end' work for the last 2
years. However, he can put 2 years of professional job hunting on his resume.
I don't think he understands, that 40K job is the bottom of the career ladder.
You're not supposed to stay there very long.

~~~
jbail
I completely agree.

I graduated college 5 years ago with a Poli sci BA from a state school. My
first job was for $11/hr working on MS Pagemaker for the Wisconsin Medicaid
website for EDS. Talk about soul sucking!

Now, I'm a senior software engineer at a VC-funded software company in
Boulder. Needless to say earning a bit more and doing a lot more rewarding
work.

Between those two places there are about four other jobs and literally
thousands of hours reading programming books, working on "play" projects,
making websites for my Aunt, Grandma, anyone who would let me, etc.

Best advice is to get out there, get any job, stay hungry, intellectually
curious and never settle. Then stop worrying.

------
bbwharris
I hate to say it, but if you have been looking for work for a long time and
turn down an offer.... You can't complain.

There is a saying about beggars and choosers.

I completely understand being in a job that I dislike, but a job that I
dislike is better than no job and no prospects of a job.

A single position can build a resume and open more doors. This was a foolish
mistake it seems. I would love to hear about a follow up. Did this guy land
the job that he wants?

~~~
roc
_"The conversation I’m going to have with my parents now that I’ve turned down
this job is more of a concern to me than turning down the job,"_

That's what jumped out at me as the giant, blinking, neon sign. _You and I_
can't turn down an offer and still complain.

But a kid with that mindset absolutely will. He has absolutely no perspective.
His parents and grandparents have raised him within Plato's Cave.

------
xutopia
I am not American but French-Canadian. Perhaps my idea of the American dream
was skewed by hollywood.

I always thought that the American dream was about determination winning over
"old money". I thought it was having fewer roadblocks in front of you. I
thought it was about having opportunities to prove oneself regardless of
wether or not you have a diploma.

Am I so disconnected from this kid's worldview that I can't understand why he
didn't take up the 40k? I accepted my first job realizing that it wasn't so
much about the money I was making as the chance to prove myself out there.
Prove myself I did. I doubled my salary within the first 5 years and got more
and more interesting jobs as time went by.

This guy just has sense of entitlement. He calls it the American dream but
either he doesn't know what that means or I don't.

------
wfjackson3
Actually, upon looking again, I think that his grandfather has a point. My
english teacher my senior year of high school strongly encouraged me to spend
a semester biking or backpacking through Europe, taking short term jobs to
support myself as I traveled. At the time, I thought she was insane, but that
kind of perspective could probably do this guy lots of good.

~~~
wickedshimmy
Any kind of perspective would do this guy lots of good, period.

------
jakevoytko
I graduated a few years ago, and a common worldview in my graduating class
was, "I've put X amount of work in my whole life, so I should hear back from
jobs when I apply." It's a flawed line of thought, but it's not common to
question things you've been told your whole life. The truth is much more
subtle - hard work is important, but working hard towards a goal is what gets
you jobs.

It wasn't very common to find someone who tried to make industry contacts, or
who helped out inside of their department at special events, or who spent
large amounts of spare time trying to improve themselves. They just signed up
for a whole bunch of classes and worked their ass off in the classroom. Which
is good! But it doesn't translate well into job offers

The kid in the article lacks the fundamentals for getting a job he wants, but
at least he seemed willing to compromise on his lofty ideals and MIGHT accept
a lesser job in the future. He should listen to his grandfather! "“Scott has
got to find somebody who knows someone,” the grandfather said, “someone who
can get him to the head of the line.”"

------
rmundo
I was surprised to read this article, as it seemed to me from reading HN and
other tech-related news sources that there are more opportunities than ever.
Am I wrong?

~~~
varjag
From the article: he doesn't want to be an entrepreneur or work in small-fish
business. He is set for building a traditional career in a finance
corporation. A yuppie born into wrong era.

~~~
gaius
Killer quote:

 _"If you talk to 20 people," Scott said, "you’ll find only one in
manufacturing and everyone else in finance_

Umm, no...

~~~
daok
Well in Canada (Montreal city) they are a lot of student in Mangament/Finance
and a lot less in other fields. People think finance is the "only" way to make
big easy money now.

~~~
GFischer
All the talk about the big bonuses in Wall Street during the US crisis sent
the wrong signals, I suspect.

I daydream about working at a Wall Street bank from what I read here on HN
occasionally about the paychecks (currently can't because I'm not an US or EU
citizen)

------
wfjackson3
Political science with a history minor. I feel bad for him, but what did he
expect?

~~~
robryan
I think it's partly the universities fault for promoting this kind of "well
rounded" education. You would have to think though that this can't be doing
him any favours applying for finance jobs against people that actually did
economics and similar.

~~~
mattm
I agree but then universities are businesses. It's in their economic interest
for offering these degrees.

I still have university students in my social circle and I cringe everytime I
meet someone that says they are studying political science or psychology or
art or history or women's studies. Many of the degrees universities offer
these days are only helpful if you stay within the university system and
become a prof.

~~~
gaius
There is a mantra that I don't know where exactly came from, but my teachers
in the 6th form (High School) all repeated it: it doesn't matter what you
study as at university you are really learning how to learn.

We need to knock that on the head before we make any progress,

~~~
robryan
Agreed, this thought has some value but people need to realise that it doesn't
mean that studying something then applying for another field puts them on an
equal standing to those who studied in that specific field.

------
PonyGumbo
He's 24 and his parents are still paying his cell phone bill? Yikes.

~~~
masterj
Is this particular point so terrible? I'm 23 and am still on my parents' plan.
The marginal cost of keeping me on their family plan is so much less than the
cost of me getting my own line that it makes little sense for me to get my
own, even though I could easily afford it.

~~~
PonyGumbo
In the context of the article, it reinforces the idea that he's spoiled - that
while his parents continue to pay all of his bills, he turns down what most of
us would consider a more than reasonable starting salary given this economy,
his major, and his lack of experience.

I would assume that in your case (since you could easily afford your own
line), you're at least reimbursing your parents. This guy isn't.

~~~
mattm
Also mentioned is that his schooling was entirely paid for along with his
rent.

I imagine that if his parents weren't still subsidizing his life, he wouldn't
have had any thought about rejecting that job offer.

------
raintrees
Single page version:
[http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/07/business/economy/07generat...](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/07/business/economy/07generation.html?pagewanted=all)

------
sgoranson
hah...I actually went to high school with that kid. My parents went broke
sending me to a private school they couldn't afford, so I had the pleasure of
growing up with spoiled millionaire future liberal arts majors. Do I take
pleasure knowing that today, I forbid my parents from ever picking up a
restaurant tab when we go out, and meanwhile his parents are still paying for
his cell phone? Yes, yes I do take pleasure :)

------
dgreensp
_“I don’t think I fully understood the severity of the situation I had
graduated into,” he said, speaking in effect for an age group — the so-called
millennials, 18 to 29 — whose unemployment rate of nearly 14 percent
approaches the levels of that group in the Great Depression. And then he
veered into the optimism that, polls show, is persistently, perhaps
perversely, characteristic of millennials today. “I am absolutely certain that
my job hunt will eventually pay off,” he said._

This writer should be doing over-dramatic stories for The Onion.

------
ac132
I think this kid's problem ultimately boils down to one statement: "He majored
in political science and minored in history."

And he wants to earn north of $75k? Why? Because he read a lot of history
books? And he's arrogant enough to say this to the NY Times? He might as well
put a stamp on his forehead that says "Arrogant bastard. Do not hire."

------
gojomo
These articles emerge like cicadas every few years, especially during
temporary economic downturns. The definition of the 'American Dream' is
nebulous enough that you can always, for the purpose of the story, define it
as what today's kids won't have as easy as their parents.

------
patrickgzill
I feel for the guy, though I think he should have considered the $40K job a
little more.

Sounds like what he really needs to do is get the hell away from his parents
who keep making excuses for him and trying to be "understanding".

------
aplusbi
I think my friend Dan (who is on HN incidentally) summed it up perfectly:

"American Dream Elusive for New Generation": get political science degree,
apply to finance jobs, reject entry-level positions -> fail.

------
Maven911
I think this article has riled up quite a few folks, there's nearly 1500
comments in this nytimes article!!!

------
ahoyhere
This is the curse of coming from a well-off family: you can't imagine
struggling up. And your mommy probably agrees that you're better than that.
Maybe his father disagreed temporarily with his son's rejection of that job,
but I bet the message he's been giving his son the other 365 days a year is
that he's so gifted, talented, and destined for great things.

That said, I'd love to have coffee with his grandfather. Sounds like an
interesting guy.

There are a million opportunities out there for young people who are willing
to work outside of school, on talents or skills or connections - but not for
those who expect to get experience handed to them with their grades.

~~~
greyman
It seems to me this is a generational thing. I live in Europe, coming from a
not-so-rich family, and my 30 years old sister is exactly like that guy - if
the job is so-called boring or "inferior", she would not even consider
it...she prefers to keep sending resumes.

But on the other hand, I am not willing to criticize him too quickly. I think
there is some truth to it - if you settle for the unsuitable job, it might be
difficult to move from there. In other words, I am not a strong proponent of
the "better any job than no job" mentality. Sometimes it is better to continue
searching.

~~~
ahoyhere
I didn't say "rich," I said "well-off." The middle class fear poverty more
than the truly rich, in my experience.

You can quit a job at any point, and nothing bad happens. That's easy to
explain, too. I quit my first real job after 3 months because it was too
aggravating, and I got a better offer. Never posed me any problems, and
meanwhile I paid off a lot of my debt.

People who make excuses will always find some _new_ excuse to make.

