
Is Joe Rogan right about young men and video games? - Sumitmic
https://unherd.com/thepost/is-joe-rogan-right-about-young-men-and-video-games/
======
MattGaiser
> jiu-jitsu might offer a person physical fitness, excitement, confidence, and
> new career opportunities

Jiu-jitsu definitely wins on the physical fitness. Video games win on the
lower chance of brain damage from concussions.

Video games can certainly offer excitement and confidence.

I am not sure what new career opportunities jiu-jitsu offers in any meaningful
quantity. If we are talking about "jiu-jitsu" instructor jobs, well, there are
video game trainer jobs and video game tester jobs as well.

The problems people have with video games come from gamers not meeting
societal expectations for their gender and preferring to do something else.

~~~
watwut
Wtf you talk about. The gaming is considered the boy masculine thing and
majority of games are masculine fantasies.

~~~
MattGaiser
> boy masculine thing

Your use of the word "boy" explains everything. All of these anti video game
articles are basically accusing gamers of never growing up to be good
providers, which is the social expectation for the male gender.

The games certainly appeal to the masculine fantasy, but the people who play
them are hardly considered masculine.

~~~
watwut
I say boy because I literally see parents being proud when their little boys
play games. They are literally happy about their kids doing gender right.

It is different in adults insofar it sux for partner when he is playing all
the time while she is dealing with kids and all that boring stuff.

But outside of the addiction situation, male gaming in adults is accepted as
being dude doing dude activities. Trying to pretend that you massively popular
hobby is making you outsider is ridiculous.

------
willis936
“MMA fighter claims that martial arts is not a waste of time and that other
hobbies are.”

What’s the discussion to be had here? Just one biased talking head trying to
raise the way he spends his free time above others.

~~~
AQuantized
You get exercise and some level of mind-body training. That raises it above
the most frivolous of time wasting at least. I think you can get a lot out of
most media as well, but it doesn't necessarily have the same default utility
as physical activity.

~~~
willis936
Spending free time for enjoyment can’t be considered a waste. Don’t violate
the golden rule and the hobby is fine. The only person who cares that your
hobby is healthy is you. Don’t disrespect others. Martial arts is even worse
by this metric because gamers don’t insult other peoples’ hobbies as often.

~~~
hombre_fatal
> Spending free time for enjoyment can’t be considered a waste.

I don't think we actually believe that. We don't say that about something like
heroin or masturbation.

Also, your future-self doesn't necessarily agree with that either. Give your
future-self a say in how you spend you time today because they're the one who
has to live with it.

"Time enjoyed while wasted wasn't time wasted!" tends to only be something
present-you says to conveniently justify spending time in ways that will turn
out to be unfulfilling with high opportunity costs.

~~~
willis936
Those things are often coupled with addiction, is self-destructive. Addiction
from lack of a balanced life is an arguably preventable downward spiral.

If you want to say video games fall in the same category, I would argue video
games are to heroin as caffeine is to amphetamine. Additionally, things that
people get addicted to are not the issue, but rather the life around the
things that people are addicted to are the issue. Just look at the use of cell
phones in the contemporary world.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park)

On future-self: My future-self already makes my decisions. If they choose to
appreciate art (as video games are) on a Sunday or repair some electronics
older than me, or go on a walk, none of those things are wastes of time. The
mere supposition that they are is obnoxious.

------
robviren
Video games offer a safe space for healthy aggression. Testosterone levels are
insane in teen years and it seems that every other healthy outlet for
aggression has been discouraged in society. Games are fine as long as they do
not become an addiction. It's too easy to get sucked in and get used to a safe
environment where mistakes have no downsides, zero physical activity is had,
and a somewhat toxic culture can exist.

I feel that maintaining a balance of physical activity can help temper young
men in those years. For my own experience wrestling and MMA were a good outlet
for those feelings. Of course the micro concussions probably didn't help me
out much, but now I at least know that getting punched in the head regularly
is a bad idea. Which, on paper, should have been more obvious.

~~~
partyboat1586
Grappling is a better outlet than boxing or MMA. Physical, real world and no
risk of concussion.

~~~
mrob
Low risk of concussion. It's not unheard of to accidentally clash heads with
somebody.

------
mrob
>the discipline, progress, and sense of purpose offered by this kind of
physical challenge is absolutely real

The discipline, progress, and sense of purpose offered by video games is
equally real. If you think it's lacking any of these attributes you're
probably playing something too easy. I've done martial arts before, and the
thrill of winning a full-contact fight (in my case judo) is identical to the
thrill of overcoming a genuinely hard video-game challenge. You even get much
the same physical reaction; watch somebody who speedruns with a heart-rate
monitor when they're on world-record pace.

The only advantage of martial arts is the enforced exercise, and it's a form
of exercise with high risk of injury. And because the brain is a physical
organ like any other, and because there's no clear distinction between mental
and physical fitness, most competitive gamers realize that exercise gives them
a competitive advantage. It's rare for a pro gamer to never hit the gym.
Advertising this fact is probably more beneficial than advertising martial
arts directly.

~~~
jacknews
I agree, but there are more advantages to real life compared to virtual.

IRL, you meet your opponents, and possibly make friends. Online is often
anonymous.

IRL you're learning subtle body-language and other cues.

IRL the discipline is stronger even at the lowest levels, and rewards scanter.
Games are designed to give you just enough hope to keep trying - real life
isn't. IRL teaches perseverance, even when there seems to be no hope.

The real problem is problem gamers - those that satisfy their drive and desire
by playing games all day, rather than progressing their career and real life.

~~~
formerly_proven
To be honest most IRL skills improve at a rate far quicker than grinding
online games for skill for exactly the reason you stated, games designed to
give you a variable (and marginal) reward, just enough to retain engagement
indefinitely. Meanwhile many IRL skills and hobbies will have an entry barrier
that may require some perseverance, but once you get engaged with it you tend
to make big strides quickly and can look back on the massive progress you've
made.

------
panpanna
Yes, he is.

Watch a few young gamers. Note how they behave - not how they describe
themselves - and you will see he is right.

Now, for most people it's just a phase. But there are a few that keep that
mentality for the rest of their lives and then get frustrated when they are
not getting anywhere outside their computers (their "battlestations").

------
TheUndead96
I don't know why this has become such a hot-button issue. I figured it was
quite well established that video games are synthetic goals, and have always
been tied to escapism. That is not to say that they are inherently wrong.
Unless you are playing competitive games on the highest level (Dota, CS:GO),
your charisma and looks are a greater predictor of your success in YouTube and
Twitch than anything else.

~~~
mrob
Almost all goals in modern society are synthetic. That's the core of Ted
Kaczynski's argument for destroying it all. But most people see no problem
with synthetic goals, which is a good thing when the alternative involves the
death of billions.

~~~
mnm1
Other than basic survival and sex, all goals now and in history are and have
been "synthetic." It's irrelevant and certainly not new or noteworthy. Of
course most people are ok with it. They've been ok with it since the dawn of
civilization. Ted was just a whiny little bitch having an existential crisis
who wanted to murder people for pleasure. His ideas were extremely stupid,
delusional, and hardly new or interesting. The alternative is not the death of
billions. The alternative is for scumbags like him to just shut the fuck up or
kill themselves before they start murdering people based on their extreme
stupidity and delusions.

------
edynoid
Who said a hobby had to be useful? This self-improvement cult is really
annoying...

~~~
decasteve
It’s utilitarian society or oblivion. If you’re not min-maxing your life
you’re not a productive member.

------
sod
If he was as lazy as I am, there wouldn't be a joe rogan podcast to listen to
to begin with. So I'm thankful that there are not just people like me that
mostly consume instead of produce.

IMO it's good to be aware of the effects of my actions (or inactions) on my
future. If I didn't had the occasional reality check that the things I deeply
enjoy is a complete waste of time, then I may lose track of the things I have
to do to maintain that lifestyle.

And that is mostly what Joe Rogan tries to say with such statements. Do
whatever you like, but don't destroy your future. If gaming all day drives you
into a dead end, that may be a problem worth addressing when there is still
time to turn the ship around.

------
Corazoor
Imho the comparison by Joe Rogan is skewed. The immediate goal of jiu-jitsu,
just like in games, is totally fake: Beat your opponent in a staged fight with
strict rules.

All the listed advantages of doing that are secondary effects of engaging in
that activity.

And games totally have that too, they can improve:

\- hand-eye coordination

\- stimulus processing speed

\- stress tolerance

\- multi-tasking capability

\- attention span

Depending on the type of game even more positive effects can be shown.

This is not to say that games are better than sports, or that gaming does not
have harmful sides. But presenting gaming as totally free of beneficial
aspects is not really an argument in good faith...

------
amelius
Could apply to programming too.

> Video games are a real problem. You know why? Because they’re fucking fun.
> They’re real exciting, but you don’t get anywhere… you’re going to waste
> your time

Programming is also fun and exciting. And if you're real good at it, you just
get to do even more programming ...

~~~
rjtobin
I think the interpretation of "you don't get anywhere" is the crux. There are
a few games I've put a few hundred hours in, and those hours were mostly fun
and exciting. I gained skills in the game, some of which are transferrable to
other things, but most of which aren't.

If I was to put the same time into a new programming language, I'd have gained
a different set of skills, again some transferrable and some not. I think most
people judge the second set of skills as more worthwhile than the first (maybe
because it is tied to employability, and is seen as more "age appropriate").

Another aspect is that programming isn't designed to be addictive in the way
some games are. Something like World of Warcraft seems designed specifically
to hook into the part of the brain that rewards grind. In the moment, WoW is
very compelling. But looking back on what was accomplished, I don't feel
particularly positive about it. Compared to a programming project with a
similar time commitment, in the moment it is on average less compelling
probably, but the achievements are more satisfying in retrospect. Somehow this
makes programming seem more worthwhile (though maybe I have just internalized
the societal standards from above, and that's why I feel more satisfied with
the programming projects).

~~~
hombre_fatal
I'd argue that fulfillment is the variable here and it seems to be what you're
describing.

Spending a weekend on a programming project for fun can almost feel like the
height of self-actualization to me. A pure intellectual challenge that makes
me feel good and gives me a real proving ground. And I almost always look back
on it and am proud of my effort even if I don't accomplish what I wanted.

Meanwhile it's too easy to spend empty, unfulfilling time in games. My time in
World of Warcraft was wasn't self-actualization but more narcotic
entertainment. It was less challenge and more empty feelgood treadmill. It
felt good at the time, but not a year later. And it was addicting and easy in
a way that programming (creation, exertion) is not. Even when I got into add-
on development (which produced some fulfillment), that was only a small
fraction of my time spent playing.

I don't think the point needs to be that one is always good and the other is
always bad. But my advice to my former self and young people would be to
beware of games. Ideally we all have a creative outlet that gives us real
fulfillment. Even if you get sucked into games, hopefully it can redeem itself
as a creative outlet rather than leave you in a narcotic-like rut.

I think Joe's comments make perfect sense if you see it as a letter to his
former self and thus young people in general. I just remember when I was a
heavy gamer, I hated acknowledging that yeah, I kinda am wasting my time, and
it's not fulfilling. My parents were right, but it's a hard pill to swallow
when it's one of the only things you've found that excites you (and you've
stopped looking).

On the other hand, I think a lot of life advice is too hard to apply and
better experienced yourself. Sometimes you just have to spend a year in an
MMORPG in your teens, quit it, and then think "yeah, what a waste of time that
was." And you learn a good lesson about how you want to spend your time. The
danger is that I have two friends in their 30s who never quit, and it shows.
Never had girlfriends, never traveled, slave to games, seem miserable -- and
it's hard for me to see how they are setting themselves up for life
fulfillment. And I think that matters.

That's all I have to say on the topic. To avoid spamming my PoV any more in
these threads, this was my last one.

------
jbj
Especially now a-days where games can have concealed elements of gambling as
well as using other tricks to keep engagement.

------
watwut
Yes. It is like with anything else - fun for some time is good for you.

When you become so obsessed with fun that you pull multiple all nighters, are
failing in the school due to no effort spent on it, are unable to relate to
non gamers or worst are getting moody irritable and yelling around, then it is
no longer good for you.

Duh.

------
playeren
One could also make a similar argument about wasting time on podcasts and
youtube videos, giving the illusion of gaining wisdom and experience.

I think there is a point to made about dopamine addiction and the businesses
that knowingly or not prey on those attributes of human nature, but I don't
think this article nor Mr. Rogan's podcast is giving any interesting or useful
insight.

Oh well, back to my crosswords!

edit: I also wanted to mention Tobi Lütke (Shopify) who firmly believes in the
value of lessons that can learned through gaming:

"It's insanely hard to become a pro in Starcraft, significantly harder than it
is to get a degree. So I feel like this should be highly valuable on a CV. My
offer to bring in ex pro players is more general than my offer to select for
an internship,"

From: [https://www.businessinsider.com/retired-gamer-offered-
intern...](https://www.businessinsider.com/retired-gamer-offered-internship-
for-past-starcraft-2-performance-2019-10?r=US&IR=T)

[https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/dl3o2p/billionai...](https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/dl3o2p/billionaire_shopify_ceo_finds_out_on_twitter_that/f4my8oi/)

------
ch0I9daAiO
Yes, mostly useless. Though from my perspective, as a young male that has
played video games quite a bit, it has made me curious about certain useful
skills. At some point, you'll start playing with the game, modding it, or
hosting servers for your buddies, or making cheats. I've learned scripting
with Lua because I wanted more. Sure, you won't become a linux admin by
hosting a Teamspeak and WoW server, but it will get you closer.

------
kainer
Would assume generalizations are bad to make here.

Video Games have:

\- Thought me more English than I could ever learn in school especially
TALKING (non-native) \- Started many projects for me that helped me later on
from learning programming to analytical thinking and strategy \- Learn to work
in teams and become part of a community, even though I still had the weekly
sports activity and school etc also \- Got me into PC hardware and MS Windows
with great detail to optimize my experience \- Made me "escape reality"
without waking up with a broken bone somewhere next to the road

Guess there were many more points, some of which I maybe wouldn't attribute
towards gaming but where indirectly affected by it.

But I can also see how other generations might have a different experience.
You might no longer need to tinker with your OS and hardware to get a great
performance. Creating large spreadsheets to calculate game specific actions
and derive decisions is also not needed for many games.

So I guess saying video games are bad is way too generic, as it is to say
drinking is bad. Depending on the usage and what you get out of it.

I am more than happy to not have taken jiu-jitsu classes and I would also
challenge if that had made it any better for me compared to gaming.

~~~
formerly_proven
> So I guess saying video games are bad is way too generic

That's not the argument being presented. No one is talking about people who
play 10-30 hours per two weeks, which is not an unreasonable amount of time
for a hobby. This is largely about people who spend 60, 70, 80, 90 or triple
digits per two weeks in games.

------
johnnujler
Now I understand why first-hand knowledge is better than reading summaries and
commentaries. Every conversation revolves around a context, which when
separated and generalised distorts the entire thing. Anyone who wishes to
understand the context should watch the segment from the podcast, there are
timestamps under the video. It is as not as black and white as the article
makes it out to be, in fact, I’ve a new found respect for Joe after watching
that particular podcast.

------
CaptArmchair
The title doesn't need the exclamation mark.

The author agrees with Rogan's statement from the get-go and then goes on to
choose arguments - notably the a theorem on 'fake fitness' posited by one
psychologist in a blog post - that support that statement.

This is fine and valid in itself, but then the article simply becomes what it
is: a personal opinion piece based on personal views and values that eschews
any critical dissection of arguments on both sides of the aisle.

------
laughingbovine
So one big difference between playing some video games and going to do
something physical is, when you are a kid at least, there tends to be an adult
guiding your experience during the physical stuff... at least some of the
time. Think gym instructor, coach, trainer, etc. There really isn't any
equivalent when gaming.

------
qwerty1234599
Tbh video games with your friends is pretty much the same as drinking together
but without the alcohol. Equally fun, good for social bonding, but without the
adverse health effects or hangover.

Singleplayer games on the other hand are useless, I'd say the equivalent of
binge watching tv shows.

------
edynoid
What's up with that weird tangent about feminism? It's not like no feminist
ever noticed the bottled-up toxic masculinity in some gaming communities and
started analysing that.

Do more sports is definitely one of the more naive "solutions" I've come
across.

------
cbg0
As a reply to the main quote: if we are talking in absolutes, then yes,
playing video games could be a waste of time as you probably won't gain any
skills that are useful in the real world, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't
be able to have fun and unwind in a fantasy every now and again, as long as
you realize that it's just that - a fantasy.

> For some young men, gaming plugs a psychological gap left by the loss of a
> certain kind of masculinity, a loss sometimes blamed on feminists, who are
> accused of creating a feminised society that leaves no space for men. But in
> fact, the so-called ‘crisis in masculinity’ is a consequence, not of
> feminist campaigning, but of societal affluence — a miracle of the modern
> world, but one that has inadvertently produced a lot of frustrated and
> aimless young men, now directing their pent up energy towards a hobby that
> offers fake fitness but which, unfortunately, given the addictive nature of
> ‘limbic capitalism’, is more likely than other hobbies to become all-
> consuming, damaging the gamer’s health and repelling potential sexual
> partners.

This article definitely needs a bunch of [citation needed] tags. I'm a gamer
myself and know plenty of gamers, but none that play video games to feel more
masculine or which blame feminists in some way for this alleged "crisis in
masculinity".

From my experience, these fantasies that the article mentioned: "a soldier,
gunslinger, warrior, gangster, or heavily armed survivor in a post-apocalyptic
hellscape" are more about us being able to live out fantasies without
consequences the same way we would live them out by reading a fiction book,
and not necessarily to somehow prop up our masculinity through them, though
there might be some men that need that.

------
yunruse
This feels like sensationalism. You could make the exact same argument for
music, books, films or TV - it is an artistic medium. A game can be a complete
waste of time, and equally it can be an enriching and educational experience.
Blindly sticking them all into one category is naive.

~~~
apatters
If digitally induced dopamine spikes are a concern, why isn't porn at the
forefront of the discussion? Erectile dysfunction has roughly doubled in young
men over the past decade and some research attributes it to online porn.
[https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/](https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/)

~~~
NeverFade
The article focuses on "fake fitness": the false sense held by gamers that
their gaming activities promote fitness and success in the real world.

The article aims to show that this sense is indeed false.

Porn consumers don't generally share a sense that porn consumption improves
their real-world fitness and success. You could make a separate argument
against porn consumption, but the "fake fitness" argument the article makes
doesn't apply to porn addiction.

------
pjc50
Well this is a surprise; I thought Rogan was marketing primarily towards the
young man demographic?

Per other comments, lumping an entire medium "video games" into one and trying
to label it "good/bad" is the laziest possible form of cultural criticism.
Criticise individual works, or patterns of behaviour instead. You could target
gambling/gatcha, or the abuse that players hurl at one another (also a problem
in traditional sports!)

~~~
dageshi
Rogan was utterly addicted to quake when younger. To the point where he had a
high speed t1 line installed at a time when that cost an awful lot.

Having watched the podcast he discussed it in, I think he was more worried
about the kind of default usage people slip into, where all their free time is
effectively consumed by gaming as he experienced himself.

------
blunte
For the same reason I don't listen to the Kardashians for advice, I am not
going to listen to an obnoxious MMA dude for life advice.

Clearly many humans have too easy a life (myself included) when we seek to
fill our time with meaningless drivel produced by others who also have too
much time.

------
foxes
Ok then. I ran 30km today, I can play some video games if I want.

------
gmoore
Is Joe Rogan right about anything?

------
haunter
TLDR: if you are not self improving in your free time your life is a waste

Hope this cult will die some time. It's pretty much the same as with social
media too.

------
dmch-1
Yes.

------
kylegordon
For a start, who is Joe Rogan?

~~~
huffmsa
Host of Fear Factor.

------
ivanstame
Nope, he is not right.

------
Sirikon
Ok boomer

------
formerly_proven
Seems about right.

------
huffmsa
Yeah pretty much. I can get in a fire fight with my buddies on the internet
without actually improving anything.

It's paintball, but you don't get exercise, don't learn about moving your body
in space, don't get the same thrill, or the bruises.

~~~
MattGaiser
I can sit on a porch drinking without improving anything. Where is the crusade
against men sitting on porches?

~~~
watwut
When men done it a lot, there were multiple strong anti drinking campaigns.
Some succesfull leading to prohibition.

I mean come on.

~~~
huffmsa
That too.

Teetotalers have spent a lot of history trying to stop men from drinking on
their porches.

