
What frustrates me the most as an entrepreneur   - uniquejosh
http://joshliu.co/what-frustrates-me-the-most-as-an-entrepreneur
======
thomasgerbe
I wonder what life would be like if salaries were publicized in the same way
as professional athletes.

I've had situations where extremely intelligent and productive fellow
employees left the company because they found out someone else of the same
level was making a lot more than they were. And by the time they offer a
raise, the employee has already emotionally moved onto other pastures.

I'll admit that when I found out someone else was making a lot more despite
putting in less hours, my motivation within the company dropped dramatically
and I put in my notice a few days later. It's not that my only motivation was
money but I lost a lot of respect for mgmt.

I do think the argument is funny sometimes. I'm not saying that the author
believes this, but I've seen other owners come across like, "we're not trying
to be greedy... we really don't have much money." Okay, so then why not tell
me what everyone is earning and owns so that I know where I fit in? Oh
right... you want to get away with the minimal amount you can get paying me.

~~~
BerislavLopac
A good approach is to have a well-determined, public salary policy, as
described by Joel Spolsky in
<http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000038.html>

~~~
trafficlight
This is good stuff. As the article was written in 2000, does anyone know how
these things panned out? Is Fogcreek still using this plan?

~~~
libria
Yeah, [http://blog.stackoverflow.com/2011/07/how-much-should-you-
pa...](http://blog.stackoverflow.com/2011/07/how-much-should-you-pay-
developers/)

------
blackboxxx
I'm conflicted about this post. I think your expressions are heartfelt, but it
sounds like you've been window shopping when you don't have the funds to buy.

If you knew you didn't have the money to fairly pay for this designer's
services, why ask? To the more cynical among us, this post may seem like a
manipulative way to indirectly guilt-trip this guy into working for you far
below his asking rate.

Look, you know how to get press and upvotes on HN. You obviously know how to
influence people. But maybe now isn't the time to be speaking about this
hiring issue while it's still unresolved.

~~~
tlianza
> If you knew you didn't have the money to fairly pay for this designer's
> services, why ask?

By this equation, a startup without a lot of VC money wouldn't have a shot at
hiring anyone great - and yet a startup needs great people. Put simply, if you
want to make a lot of money at minimal risk, run far away from startups. Go
work at a big tech company who's a money making machine, become employee
29751, and enjoy your biweekly paycheck which will come whether you work hard
or not.

The equation at a startup is different. You have to love what you do, first
and foremost. That's not measured in dollars, but not hating the place where
you spend most of your non-sleeping hours is worth a lot. Secondly, you really
have to believe in the company, and your impact on it. Without that, you'll
value your equity at $0, and the financial side of things will wear on you
(you will believe you're being paid unfairly).

Part of attracting great people is making sure they believe in you, and making
sure you can provide a great work environment for them. The people who are
strictly motivated by salary are probably not going to work out. There are
still a lot of great people willing to take on some risk so long as it's
something they believe in.

~~~
blackboxxx
Me believing in your startup is included in my rate. So is passion. If you're
going to nickel and dime my rate, both will affected.

~~~
tlianza
That would suggest you have a different rate for different startups. Right? If
so, I agree with you.

------
dreamdu5t
Promises are meaningless in business. This great UX guy shouldn't take your
low pay for a second. He's probably a great UX guy because he's focused on UX
and not investing. He needs to be paid well or he won't be able to focus on UX
110%

Remember, not being an investor if your business doesn't pan out it's much
harder on him than a guy who has a portfolio to fall back on.

He'll also likely resent you. This resentment can come back to affect his work
when crunch-time comes. Employees that want more money, deserve more money,
but took low pay on the hope of success tend slowly develop resentment towards
the business. Especially the longer they wait for the promised success.

~~~
uniquejosh
I liked what you said. Yes, I want him to focus on UX 110%, and not worry too
much on the money. But, the fair rate to him is too high to us. That is the
struggle. I am sure we will find a fee we are both fine with. But, I just wish
that I could pay him, or anyone in the team, the rate reflecting their value.
That is it. :)

~~~
billswift
Find someone that may not be quite that good, but is ambitious and still
learning, then help him grow into what you need.

~~~
uniquejosh
Yes, I think it is about the balance as well. A rising star needs to be able
to product decent work already, and keen to learn more to become that super-
star.

We had experience getting a young graduate, and it turned out that it took a
lot of time to teach him some basic things. It did not work out at out at the
end.

------
techiferous
_When I talk about shares/options, I am serious. I am not trying to con you to
be a low-paid slave. I want to share our prosperity and success with you when
the time comes._

I never take the offer of equity as a con. I see it for what it is: a high-
risk investment because the founder does not have enough capital to pay. The
main point here is that _when the time comes_ should really be _if the time
comes_.

If you are a founder in this situation, realize what you are asking for is a
hybrid worker/investor. And you shouldn't be surprised when this narrows the
pool of available workers interested in the opportunity.

~~~
uniquejosh
I think you make a fair point. Yes, that is true. It is a high-risk investment
for other employees, and different people can take different level of risks.

It would not be fair to ask a late thirty person to take the same risk as a
early twenty person. People have different financial concerns in different
stage of lives.

I think a good founder need to consider that. It is just not right to ask
everyone takes the same risk as the founders do.

~~~
nasmorn
Don't forget that when you eventually go under (or in your case if) some
employees will usually stay on past the time when you can actually pay them.
It is very hard to fire them because you will cling to the hope you can still
make it.

In Austria there is luckily an employee compensation fund for insolvencies
that pays out 3 months wages as long as employees claim the money in time. If
you don't have that you will (might) be in for an even tougher decision.

Disclaimer: I don't claim your startup will fail with certainty but
statistically that is what you are in for, so better think about what you want
to do ex ante.

------
jhancock
This is an honourable position to take. Unfortunately, it still leaves you
stuck not being able to pay people wages they require for financial stability.

------
angryasian
as a founder and an engineer.. you are being naive. You know how many times we
hear, "I have a billion dollar idea, all i need is 1% of xxx market". Yes we
all hope our startups will be successful, but in the end engineers and
designers have to look out for our own best interests, as the odds are stacked
against you and more than likely you will fail. While your idea has some
social proof ( <http://www.maven.co/knowledge-marketplace> ,
<http://www.liveperson.com/experts> ) , its very hard to convince people your
idea is good.. especially if its an extremely new idea, and second hard to
hire the best at lower than market value, especially if you are a first time
founder with no experience raising funding ( the TC article does you no help
either).

You should see if he would be willing to contract with you, while allowing him
to work another job and possibly give him equity incentives along with pay.

~~~
uniquejosh
Thanks for your in-depth feedback.

I totally agreed that it would not be fair to ask other people to take as much
risk as founders. It is all about structure it and get the balance.

Yes, we are not getting him full time. He is going to have another job in
parallel. Hopefully, we could work with him 1-2 days a week to start with, and
compensate his highly discounted rate the other way.

------
trustfundbaby
It's the nature of the beast, you're a startup ... you can't pay people what
they would make on the open market ... People who wind up working for you,
either believe in you and/or your idea.

So embrace that constraint.

I'm kind of surprised that you're looking for a UX guy full time, Is that
really necessary in your estimation? Don't you think you'd do better with a
freelancer billing out hourly?

------
Maro
_When I talk about shares/options, I am serious. I am not trying to con you to
be a low-paid slave. I want to share our prosperity and success with you when
the time comes._

Does this mean employees get stock options, or are they promised to get stock
options?

------
kyberias
What frustrates me the most about your blog is the fact that when I want to
know what the heck Minutebox is, the link doesn't really work.

~~~
peterjmag
It also breaks my back button (Chrome), which drives me crazy.

~~~
uniquejosh
thanks for reporting it. did not notice that issue. has reported it as a bug.

------
wisty
UX wise, I don't want to click through a random bunch of faces to solve my
problem.

You will have tonnes of "experts" who buy in. There's always a supply of
people who want money.

You could provide a way I can type "how do I do X", and any experts interested
can give a free 30 second answer. You might want to get credit details first
(to keep time-wasters away).

~~~
uniquejosh
Thanks, great comments on the UX.

That is something we definitely want to work out. I understand that it could
actually get time-wasters if you do not put the payment at the front. But, on
the other hand, if you put a payment right at the beginning, it causes
friction.

We are just experiment to find the best approach for both experts and clients.

I do like your "how do I do X" + 30sec answer idea. Thanks a lot

------
delinka
My idea involves having some capital to work with, but I'd still like to hear
some feedback. When hiring people, you tell them up from "we're willing to pay
you up to $AMOUNT in cash and/or stock as annual compensation. What percentage
of that would do you want as salary with the remainder as stock?"

------
robryan
I think the right thing to do here is to realise that they are outside your
current means. Either pick them up for some contract work at the market rate
or if they do really believe in the idea maybe they should be a cofounder.

~~~
uniquejosh
Yes, we would like to get him couple days a week as a contractor to start-up.
If we work together well, we would be more than happy to make the relationship
even closer.

His rate is fairly high to us, but I know he is happy to discount the rate for
us. I really appreciate it. A lot of people discount their rate working for us
as well. I just feel a lot of appreciation of that, and hope I could pay them
the rate they deserve (or other type of compensation) very very soon.

------
zdw
_If you are an investor, and you think I should pay people peanuts to maximize
your investment. Please go away. I disrespect you._

Shouldn't that be "You disrespect me"?

~~~
carbocation
He probably means what he says. He can't be sure enough of the investor's
internal thought processes to know that the investor doesn't respect him. In
contrast, he can decide that, given what the investor's conclusions reveal
about his thought process, he shouldn't respect the investor.

------
michaelochurch
OP: You're one of the good ones, as far as I can tell. Please stay in the
game.

The real issue, I think, is that your job forces you to motivate people to
take risks on your behalf and it feels like you're over-promising. A lot of
success in business relies on motivating people (employees, clients, users) to
help you succeed by promising what you'll be able to deliver if everything
goes right... selling a vision, in other words. But your workers buy into that
vision: they're willing to take mediocre (or even abysmal) compensation in
return for the opportunity to be part of something great.

You shouldn't feel bad about paying them poorly. If they wanted high-paying
jobs, they'd take them. You should feel bad if you downgrade or abuse their
loyalty, if you intentionally break your implicit promises to them (if you
bust your ass and do the right thing and still fail, that's _not_ an
intentional breach). But you seem considerate enough that I don't see you
doing that.

As for investors and the low salaries they expect employees to take, that's a
gnarly issue. It's a completely fucked system when the people who are risking
more (their careers and opportunity cost) and putting more on the line (their
time and work) are second-class citizens compared to the investors, who are
just putting up money (that might not even be theirs, in the case of
institutional agents). The _real_ investors in any company are the founders
and early employees who are doing the actual work. The money given by
financial investors ought to be respected (it's a loan, not a gift) and they
should certainly have enough say to ensure this, but it shouldn't give them
the clout it does.

It's one of those decrepit old systems whereby favor has more value than
labor. It's not worth taking personally, and your employees don't resent you
for being on the losing end of it.

Also, as for what keeps that system in place, I think there's a bit of
unacknowledged resentment of entrepreneurs by VCs. The VCs have the well-paid,
cushy, powerful and easy jobs and are pretty much guaranteed by their path-of-
low-resistance career track to be rich... but their jobs are a bit boring from
a day-to-day perspective... lots of meetings and reviewing prospectuses
(prospectii?) and shit like that. The entrepreneurs, as they see it, deserve
less respect because they have the _fun_ jobs.

~~~
rumpelstiltskin
_The VCs have the well-paid, cushy, powerful and easy jobs and are pretty much
guaranteed by their path-of-low-resistance career track to be rich_

Then why doesn't everyone and their mom become a VC?

Hint: Because it's nowhere near as easy as you think it is.

~~~
ori_b
While I'm not a VC, and I don't know enough to comment on how hard the job
itself is, I do know that it takes a significant amount of capital. Not
everyone and their mom has enough capital, and therefore, they're not in a
position to become a VC.

It is plausible that the barrier to entry is high, but the job is easy.

------
startupcto
First, if you can't afford an UX guy, even just paying him something fair,
then why even hire one? Work with him as contractor first but for a fix rate
rate. That way he doesn't have to leave his paying job and gets to work with
the team. Nights or weekends whatever works for him.

Second, again you probably don't need an UX guy now. Dig into your heart,
whats not working for Minutebox? User adoption or just the plain old people
are just not finding it. If that's is the problem, then you won't turn it
around by hiring a great UX guy. You only need the UX guy when you get tons of
users and you need someone to make the experience of using minutebox better
for them.

~~~
uniquejosh
Thanks for the great comments.

Yes, we are planning to work with him on a contract basis. It would be the
best for both of us.

We have learned a lot from our users, and know what problems we need to solve
now. We are working on the most important bit of the conversion funnel
maximisation, and we think some UX input could help us to do that better,
quicker, and more efficient.

