
Bitcoin just passed $5,000 - chanfest22
https://techcrunch.com/2017/10/12/bitcoin-just-passed-5000/
======
slg
It is amazing to think that only a few years ago you could take an old laptop,
download a miner, stick it in a closet and it would spit out something now
worth a quarter of a million dollars every few days. There are a lot of
problems with Bitcoin. If you look at my comment history you will see I am
pretty down on it for all sort of reasons I won't go into at the moment.
However sometimes you just have to take a step back and admire how crazy
impressive it is that Bitcoin has reached this point.

~~~
cableshaft
If you go back far enough, you didn't even need to download a specific mining
software, just download the Bitcoin client at the time and you could generate
bitcoin (or mine) using it. So crazy to think about now in hindsight. Back
then you had to really try hard to find someone that would accept any amount
of them.

------
sputknick
Disclaimer: I'm invested in Ethereum, and not Bitcoin. There is no good reason
that Bitcoin is still going up once Ethereum came on the scene. Transaction
times, transaction cost, decentralization, future development work, consensus
under one leader all favor Ethereum. The only reason I see for Bitcoin to
still be strong is that it has name recognition and first mover advantage.
People talk about "Bitcoin" and "cryptocurrency" as synonyms. If you want to
"get into cryptocurrency" you buy Bitcoin. I think this is a bad thing, but I
don't know what it means. Anyone have any insight with a differing opinion as
to why I am wrong? Does anyone know a good reason (technical or economic)
Bitcoin is going up while Ethereum is not?

~~~
Obi_Juan_Kenobi
Saying that Ethereum is strictly superior to Bitcoin is a very bold statement.
I would certainly not invest based on that assumption.

First, Bitcoin is already as good as it will ever need to be to function as a
practical store of value. Even without scaling, it can support enough
transactions to effectively work this way. This can support price growth for a
_long_ time, and first-mover advantage is critically important here.

Second, Bitcoin development, as fraught as it is, isn't dead. If such changes
come about as to make Bitcoin seem obsolete, there's still a good chance that
Bitcoin would adopt those changes. Also consider that a solution for an
effective 2-way swap would make protocol differences essentially moot.

Finally, I admire Vitalik and other Ethereum developers and think their
musings about cryptocurrencies in general have advanced the field as a whole.
However, I'm still skeptical that Ethereum, as envisioned by Vitalik, can be
made to work through sheer force of engineering. It's stunning how far it's
come, but it still faces very real problems. A successful move to proof of
stake would be the first indication that it might happen.

Footnote: "consensus under one leader" is probably the most critical weakness
for Ethereum right now. Not only for legal/state interventions with the DAO
precedent, but as a single point of failure. I think it's fair to say that
Satoshi left Bitcoin precisely because it needs to "stand on its own feet" if
it's to be truly decentralized. In this way, I consider Bitcoin to be far more
mature.

~~~
alexasmyths
"Bitcoin is already as good as it will ever need to be to function as a
practical store of value."

Bitcoin is the worst possible 'store of value'in any financial scenario.

It's highly volatile, subject to unknown future regulations, competition from
other things - and of course, it could go to zero tomorrow.

Moreover - there are any number of other, better opportunities for 'store of
value' \- most notably real-estate.

There has been demand for real-estate in London for at least 1000 years.

So think, in 100 years, will there be at least some demand for real-estate in
London. Probably. Probably more than today - but at least some.

What will the demand be for BTC in 100 years? Will it even exist? Will anyone
even remember what it is?

The volatility alone makes it really not something you want to 'store a lot of
value for the future'.

Just because there is pragmatically a 'fixed number of BTC's that will ever be
created, and that it has some crypto-viability - does not inherently make it a
'good store of value' \- or a 'store of value at all'.

~~~
Agebor
It's probably most useful to compare Bitcoin to gold (apparently the Biggest
Bubble in Stock Market History:
[http://gainspainscapital.com/2017/08/08/officially-
biggest-b...](http://gainspainscapital.com/2017/08/08/officially-biggest-
bubble-stock-market-history/)).

Let's take a random sample of reasons why gold is a store of value:
[https://www.quora.com/How-did-gold-become-the-historical-
sta...](https://www.quora.com/How-did-gold-become-the-historical-standard-
store-of-value)

Pretty much every of those attributes can be created in most cryptocurrecies
(or made obsolete), with arguably these exceptions:

\- Universal (as of now) - Bitcoin is indeed universally recognisable and
tradable, compared to other cryptos.

\- Stable - very unknown, but so far the long age of Bitcoin made it a bit
more stable than most other well-known alternatives. Though that could be
challenged if an inherently stable cryptocurrency mechanism is invented.

Perhaps universality will be always there and will be enough. But overall that
makes me bend in the direction that inherently there is nothing special about
Bitcoin in the long term, while other cryptocurrencies are researching and
reinventing very foundations of value, trust and finance in general.

Imagine if there will be no reason for any currency to be a store of value in
the future. Why choose that, versus some kind of automatically diversified
crypto-index or other portfolio, that is for example bound assets related your
interests and beliefs as a person.

Just take a micro-sized chunk of it each time you make a payment.

~~~
infinite8s
Here's a big difference - Bitcoin requires the existence of a computer network
and all that entails about global stability (computers, electricity,
infrastructure). Gold (or any physical medium of exhange) doesn't.

~~~
factsaresacred
Those people that hold gold as a hedge don't hold gold. They hold a database
entry on a computer somewhere that assigns them ownership of some gold
(supposedly) in a vault somewhere.

This requires global stability, and a great deal of blind trust in multiple
third-parties.

------
MrFantastic
Blockchain has real promise, but Is anyone using Bitcoin for anything other
than speculation?

~~~
sf_rob
Payment obfuscation (which is not inherent in the protocol, but how you use
it).

International money transfers. I've personally met a few backpackers who use
bitcoin ATMs in SE Asia in addition to the traditional banking system.

FWIW I suspect that these use cases are negligible compared to speculation.

~~~
prostoalex
How do the ATMs get around money laundering laws?

------
aaroninsf
ITT: effective consensus that the utility of Bitcoin today is its popularity
in the "gray" (or black) market.

How does anyone not believe this is a bubble which will burst as previous ones
have, at the first sign of the next inevitable crack down?

Blockchain is here to stay. Bitcoin at its current value is surpassing poppy
level speculative inflation.

I get the notion of accepting high risk of loss and incredible transactional
friction when trying to move back to a fiat currency.... but only for people
who are either desperate to exfiltrate funds etc.

For everyone else it seems like a comically bad time to be buying in. Beyond
comical, really.

------
Simulacra
Years ago my boyfriend at the time said "hey we should buy some of these
bitcoins, they're only a few pennies each, it'll be fun!" Boy do I regret
missing that boat...

~~~
singularity2001
you mean you didn't marry her?

~~~
KekDemaga
Him I suspect.

~~~
Simulacra
No, I didn't marry him.

------
kensai
I am really curious if the situation will be the same after November. At the
moment it seems people are eager to buy into Bitcoin in order to have the
extra chain that will come out of the forking as Bitcoin Gold.

The precedent with Bitcoin Cash was bad in this aspect, because it created a
valued blockchain (albeit of lower value!) out of the blue. People want this
to happen again.

Invention of the money tree... :)

------
stephengillie
All aboard the hype train.

------
RikNieu
And that valuation is based on ..?

~~~
xur17
The price people are currently paying for it on exchanges [0], with > $1
Billion in volume over the past 24 hours.

[0]
[https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoin/#markets](https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoin/#markets)

~~~
RikNieu
Ok, but why? Why are people willing to pay that much for it?

~~~
Anderkent
Mainly because they believe it will stay valuable. Which is what backs all
stores of value - gold and diamonds are definitely not bought for their
practical applications.

Now why exactly people believe it is and will stay a good store of value is
more complicated, but mostly a mix of trust in how miner self interest will
keep the keys safe and general desirability of online currency

------
t0mbstone
And now it's at $5,280

~~~
SamReidHughes
It's hit a milestone.

~~~
mhartl
ISWYDT.

------
kkotak
I think it's the perfect time to buy :)

~~~
hhhxyxyy
You’re either right or wrong and your opinion is valid. Downvote isn’t
justified IMO.

------
beepboopbeep
good lord why?

~~~
LeoPanthera
Things are worth what people are willing to pay for them.

~~~
stephengillie
Fools and their money are soon separated.

~~~
julian_1
Here's some good evidence. Increase in the Monetary Base 1984 - 2010:
[https://www.aftershockpublishing.com/pub/images/c03f002.jpg](https://www.aftershockpublishing.com/pub/images/c03f002.jpg)

~~~
rglover
Exactly this. Yes, Bitcoin is having another bubble moment because folks are
trying to get rich quick. But, the underlying technology—the reason why
Bitcoin has stuck around despite countless "deaths"—is that the existing
financial system is a glass floor on the verge of shattering. We can live in
denial all we want about what that means.

Bitcoin, though not perfect, is the first viable solution we've ever seen as a
means for preventing financial corruption. Not to mention, it enables banking
access for billions of people who don't have it. It makes transfer of large
sums to _anywhere on the planet_ inexpensive. It's divisible down to 8 decimal
places (a satoshi), making it a great fit for micropayments. These are just
the top of mind solutions.

There are ideas we haven't even thought of yet. Bitcoin is programmable money,
meaning the possibilities are seemingly endless.

~~~
singularity2001
"making it a great fit for micropayments" except that you currently have to
pay about $4 for any transaction to come through ... eventually

~~~
virtuexru
Absolutely not true. I paid $0.40 cents on a $5.00 transaction yesterday that
was confirmed within an hour. I could've easily paid the same $0.40 cents to
move $50,000,000.00.

~~~
6nf
> $0.40 cents on a $5.00 transaction

Visa or Mastercard is cheaper than that

~~~
monort
Actually it is in the same ballpark. 2.9% + 30¢ is a usual price in US for a
small business.

