
Turkish government revokes ham radio licenses - lightlyused
http://yaesuft817.com/wp/turkey-gouvernement-revokes-19201-ham-radio-licenses/
======
Relys
This is going to end poorly... False flag or not, the coup has given Erdogan
an excuse to flush out and exterminate all who oppose him. Anyone want to take
bets how long until NATO will revoke Turkey's membership?

~~~
twblalock
Unfortunately, the people of Turkey were going to be screwed no matter how the
coup went. If it had succeeded, they would have got a military dictatorship.
Now they get a different kind of dictatorship instead. Erdogan was slowly
evolving into a dictator before the coup, and now he's accelerating that
process.

I wonder if the best outcome for democracy in Turkey would have been a
attempted coup which resulted in Erdogan's death before it failed. I don't
know of any Turkish politicians who would have been able to build a
dictatorship as successfully as Erdogan.

~~~
marcoperaza
I'd rather live under a liberal, pro-Western, secular military junta, than an
illiberal democracy ruled by Islamists who are destroying liberties, hollowing
out civil society, and turning the country into a Sunni version of Iran under
the Ayatollahs.

Fareed Zakaria has a great book, _The Future of Freedom_ , where he discusses,
among other things, the perils of illiberal democracy. The bit that really
stuck in my head is his argument that the impartial judge is a more important
institution than the ballot box.

Man has lived under undemocratic regimes for almost all of recorded history.
It is the human condition. It is more important to defend civilization and
order against barbarism and chaos, than it is to ensure that the majority
rules. Liberal values and constitutional government preceded true democracy by
hundreds of years in the West. Why do we expect otherwise anywhere else?

~~~
abrookewood
I agree with you, but I can't help but feel that this position isn't
defensible. Don't they have the democratic right to move to a more religious
society if the majority want it?

~~~
forgottenpass
That is "tyranny of the majority", and is one of the well-known failure modes
of democracy.

------
allendoerfer
What's the point of being a dictator? I sometimes think of really cool stuff
one should do and think: "Well you would have to be a dictator to do that.".
Maybe I am indoctrinated in Western propaganda but off the top of my had I
cannot come up with a cause that is worthwhile enough to pursue if you
consider the negative consequences of a dictatorship.

Maybe AI, space stuff or immortality - essentially the same thing. First of
all I think these are overrated. The fun thing about these is the thought that
"holy fuck we will actually do it!!". When it is there it will be like
commercial aviation.

And even if you truly want to accomplish them by all means, the best strategy
I can come up with is a) get the best of the best and b) throw all your money
at them. If you perform a Gleichschaltung it will definitely harm your ability
to throw money. So my dictatorship would consist mostly of cost cutting,
economic incentives, educational reforms, reducing administration costs -
essentially what every government claims to try anyway.

~~~
bad_alloc
1) Power feels awesome. You'll use your power to get more power because it
feels so good to see those you hate having to bow to you.

2) Educated people are dangerous as they will almost certainly doubt the
legitimacy of your rule and more importantly have the ability to plot against
you. Hence they must go.

I applaud your thinking, as it is empathic towards your hypothetical subjects
:) However people like Erodogan do not think at such a level. Assume a
primitive (but not dumb) egocentric world view in dictators. If they had
empathy, they wouldn't have been able to fight to get to where they are now.

~~~
allendoerfer
Power is certainly nice, but I don't need others to know that I am powerful. I
find many situations are much more amusing if you do not share them with
others but just acknowledge them for yourself. I think there is a purity and
elaborateness to it if you don't live of the reactions of others, even if it
is just situational humour or in the case of power "knowing that you could". I
like it, because if you are not naturally very introverted, it takes some
self-discipline.

Exercising and amassing power in contrast seems like a more primitive approach
to me. The true upper class does not have to show off. The true stars do not
have to fish for attention. The true powerful do not need to be a dictator?

~~~
abrookewood
You should watch the TV show Narcos [0], which is about Pablo Escobar and
Columbia. He has all the money and power that he could ever need, but still
tries to amass more & more. It's intoxicating viewing and provides some
insight into the mind of people who feel the need to rule absolutely. [0]
[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2707408/](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2707408/)

------
jondubois
And to think that Turkey was considered for EU membership - That's definitely
off the table now. It's a testament as to how quickly Turkey has declined.

Even without EU membership, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of Turkish people
will try to relocate to Europe and elsewhere. This would be a massive brain
and capital drain for Turkey - Especially given that this is a country which
was considered safe and progressive not so long ago...

~~~
Amezarak
That may be bad for both Turkey and the countries they flee to. Turkey was/is
a democracy. The people of Turkey created the current political environment.
If they go elsewhere, they will be influencing politics beyond Turkey, maybe
in similar ways.

~~~
beyti
There is a distinct separation between the people who made the country as it
is now and the people who couldn't prevent them. As for your concern; the
lacking prevention of the now felt almost-dictatorship is a strong evidence of
the lack of politics involvement of the group which is against this kind of
Turkey now.

So your concern is right, if the people who made this country this way gets to
flee; it's not if the people who couldn't stop this country be this way gets
to flee.

~~~
killedbydeath
Not necessarily. For example, Erdogan is currently more popular among Turks in
Germany than in Turkey, 60% vs 50%[[http://www.dw.com/en/i-stand-behind-
erdogan-an-afternoon-in-...](http://www.dw.com/en/i-stand-behind-erdogan-an-
afternoon-in-colognes-turkish-center/a-19413325)].

------
lightlyused
Not sure what is going on. Dx cluster shows Turkish ham activity. sh/dx ta
14076.0 TA4SO 20-Jul-2016 2142Z <EA3OH> 14019.9 TA3D 20-Jul-2016 2101Z <W7SW>
14072.0 TA7DX 20-Jul-2016 2038Z CQ...PSK31 <JA3SWL> 10143.7 TA1CM 20-Jul-2016
1951Z <EW4R> 14016.0 TA3D 20-Jul-2016 1949Z tnx QSO <RT9AT> 10143.7 TA1CM
20-Jul-2016 1949Z cq rtty <SV3EXU> 14016.0 TA3D 20-Jul-2016 1946Z Tnx for QSO
<DL3CQ> 14016.0 TA3D 20-Jul-2016 1938Z <JL1BDI> 14016.0 TA3D 20-Jul-2016 1937Z
TNX <IZ7XZJ> 14016.0 TA3D 20-Jul-2016 1934Z <DF1LON>

~~~
qwertyuiop924
They apparently didn't take away all of the licenses.

------
niftich
If you broadcast amateur radio, is it possible to 'hide' from enforcement?

Are there mechanisms that an enforcement authority can use to find your
physical location?

Is it possible to ostensibly rebroadcast a government-approved channel, but
with additional stenography or mixing to embed information?

~~~
w8rbt
Near Vertical Incident Skywave (NVIS) HF transmissions are very difficult
(likely impossible) to track from the ground. They go almost straight up. Hams
call them cloud burners. However, they are limited to 200 - 400 mile radius.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_vertical_incidence_skywav...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_vertical_incidence_skywave)

You'd need a dipole (14 AWG wire) about 5 meters above the ground or an 80
meter loop about 10 meters up. If setup right, the antenna would be difficult
to detect as well.

Edit: I'm a Ham. I build wire antennas as a hobby. It's fun.

~~~
jdietrich
Earth-Moon-Earth or exotic digital modes are also a possibility. EME is
impossible to triangulate if you're using a suitably directional antenna. A
creative interpretation of the Shannon-Hartley theorem allows for
communication below the noise floor using low symbol rates and wide bandwidth.
LF and below is difficult to triangulate because of the huge wavelengths, but
a workable antenna would be rather conspicuous. You might also get lucky with
meteor scatter or sporadic E.

------
gpvos
Archive: [http://archive.is/Iutbr](http://archive.is/Iutbr)

------
vvanders
That doesn't really bode well for Turkey.

FWIW the US did the same during WW1 and WW2 albeit under different
circumstances.

~~~
ProfDigory
US did what during WW1 and WW2? Did the US revoke amateur radio licenses?

~~~
nkurz
I guess one could quibble about the difference between "revoke" and "suspend",
but yes, they did at least for WW2.

 _On December 8, 1941, the FCC issued Order Number 87, which read in part:_

"Whereas a state of War exists between the United States and the Imperial
Japanese government, and the withdrawal from private use of all amateur
frequencies is required for the purpose of National Defense; IT IS ORDERED,
that except as may hereafter be specifically authorized by the Commission, no
person shall engage in any amateur radio operation...and all frequencies
heretofore allocated to amateur radio stations under Part 12 of the Rules and
Regulations ARE HEREBY WITHDRAWN. All amateur licensees are hereby notified
that the Commission has ordered the immediate suspension of all amateur radio
operation in the continental U.S., its territories and possessions."

[http://www.vpnavy01.com/websites/ke3w/history.html#24](http://www.vpnavy01.com/websites/ke3w/history.html#24)

------
batuhanicoz
Interesting. I can't seem the find the official press release for this. RTÜK
web site doesn't seem to list anything, quoted TRAC organization web site is
the same.

Am I missing something?

~~~
jlgaddis
There's an update at the bottom of the article saying that this information
was incorrect/wrong.

------
gravypod
With the hobby already on it's last legs it's sad to see even 1 person loose
their license. That's even without taking in consideration the political and
social ramifications of these actions.

With an extra exam and a bit of time learning CW I can get news directly from
people who live in countries around the world. Now that just isn't possible in
some countries.

------
throwaway7767
Looks like the article has been updated to indicate that this is false
information (see the red text at the bottom):

"We’re happy to confirm that this news has been disproved we apologise for the
false information given but apparently local hams from Istanbul city were
interdicted from transmitting until yesterday"

------
rtrsqrrl
They didn't revoke any ham license: [http://www.dx-world.net/ham-radio-in-
turkey/](http://www.dx-world.net/ham-radio-in-turkey/) At least not yet.

------
vonnik
Can we correct the headline to say "Turkish government"?

------
melchebo
There a Turkish ham radio operators replying on the blog that they know of
nothing of this kind. Maybe this "news" was made up?

------
jlgaddis
N.B.: Update at bottom of article saying this information was wrong.

------
jrockway
Interesting. I wonder if they will be allowed to remain in the ITU.

------
DashRattlesnake
Is he going to start revoking driver's licenses next? I doubt anyone could
stage a successful coup if they're forced to use the bus.

~~~
sciurus
Speaking of travel, he's banned all academics from traveling abroad. Also ont
he topic of education, he's ordered the closing of more than 600 schools, the
resignation of more than 1,500 university deans, and revoked the licenses of
21,000 teachers.

[http://nyti.ms/29SUzis](http://nyti.ms/29SUzis)

[http://nyti.ms/29VJihy](http://nyti.ms/29VJihy)

~~~
drinchev
I also read somewhere about book stores being smashed, because of selling
books against Erdogan. Can't find the source, because I'm on my phone.

------
secfirstmd
Can anyone tell me why this article got flagged on HN????

~~~
pinewurst
This is relevant for HN as it involves the attempted crackdown on individuals
using technology to communicate. Especially when it involves a channel that
doesn't go through a government gatekeeper.

~~~
dang
That argument is tenuous, because the thread inevitably turned into just
another generic political thread about Turkey.

~~~
pinewurst
Sadly yes but it hadn't I think when I originally posted...

------
crb002
I think it's time for the U.S. to erect an Armenian Genocide monument in D.C.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide)

~~~
peterwwillis
The U.S. still doesn't even recognize it officially as being genocide, so, no,
it's probably not time yet.

We're pretty much deaf, dumb and blind when it comes to genocide. We generally
allow governments to kill their own people, and often other people, as long as
they're brown. When they're white, we draw the line at them killing other
people. Sometimes.

[https://clg.portalxm.com/library/keytext.cfm?keytext_id=52](https://clg.portalxm.com/library/keytext.cfm?keytext_id=52)

[http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/ghosts/themes/...](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/ghosts/themes/response.html)

[https://www.ushmm.org/confront-genocide/speakers-and-
events/...](https://www.ushmm.org/confront-genocide/speakers-and-events/all-
speakers-and-events/genocide-prevention-morality-and-the-national-
interest/american-responses-to-genocide-and-mass-violence-in-the-past-
transcript)

[http://www.internationaljusticeproject.com/american-
response...](http://www.internationaljusticeproject.com/american-response-to-
darfur/)

[http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2001/09/bystande...](http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2001/09/bystanders-
to-genocide/304571/)

[http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/insidestoryamericas/2012...](http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/insidestoryamericas/2012/11/201211295425270859.html)

[http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/27/opinion/congo-war-ignored-
vava...](http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/27/opinion/congo-war-ignored-vava-tampa/)

------
mtgx
From almost a democracy to world's second North Korea, virtually overnight.
Impressive. But I also think this will backfire badly for Erdogan.

~~~
hafreni
I agree... This is just a temporary thing for sure. NATO isn't too happy with
the outcome of this, so I presume that something is going to come of that.

~~~
vkou
Like what? They will give lip service to political freedom, but won't kick out
their most important member. Erdogan can carry out a holocaust, and NATO would
prefer it over seeing him on team Russia.

~~~
hafreni
I don't think jumping to the conclusion that Erdogan could carry out a
holocaust and come out unscathed by NATO is a logical assertion. At some
point, another nation will intervene, because Turkey is a fairly major portion
of infrastructure in the world. I'm not an expert, or even amazing with
politics, so I could be completely wrong, but I accept that. (To each their
own opinion, right?)

------
Lagged2Death
Amateur radio operators are organized. They are an international auxiliary
communication system. They are an information channel that is largely outside
the control of governments. They are _a human network_.

I _simply can 't imagine_ what relevance that would have to the HN crowd.

------
pinewurst
Why has this been flagged?

~~~
dang
Users flag stories that they think don't belong on HN.

------
utku_karatas2
I am flagging down all Turkey related threads these days. I don't see how
political debates about the failed coup is a subject to be discussed on HN.

~~~
wmf
There's _potentially_ an interesting discussion to be had here about the
technical and political effects of ham radio during disruptions in "official"
centralized communications systems, e.g. during a coup or counter-coup
crackdown. But of course we're just getting a "Turkey politics 101" thread
instead.

~~~
utku_karatas2
That's exactly why I've been flagging. The discussions are almost identical
with some conspiracy theories, how Turkey is going backwards and how much
Erdogan sucks. This is just r/WorldNews level stuff right there.

