
Living Wage Calculator - dsr12
http://livingwage.mit.edu/
======
ainar-g
Would it be better to ask the mods to change the title to something like “US
Living Wage Calculator”? I clicked expecting a worldwide view, and was a bit
disappointed.

~~~
hiisukun
I often find this with HN articles. Much like the .com domain, I continue to
assume a likelihood of American-focus and allow myself to be pleasantly
surprised when it is a global article, service or discussion.

Perhaps that's one of the best things about code/git submissions to HN - it's
often so easy to apply them to any geographic region.

~~~
jacquesm
HN is SV first, US second, English Speaking third and world a distant fourth.

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mruts
What is a living wage? I live in Tanzania and people get by on $50/month and
live in mud houses. All of these people are alive and have been for some time.

Similarly, I know some bums in LA whos only expenses are $5/gram weed. They
live on the beach, chill in a tent, and are happy and alive.

People in Western countries have such a distorted idea what is a living wage
it’s patently absurd. It includes a tv, netflix, a cell phone, a car,
apartment, computer, etc.

Most people here in Tanzania would literally kill to make minimum wage in
America. It would seem like paradise, a life of extreme luxury.

Americans are so myopic and don’t seem to appreciate how lucky _all_ of them
are. There’s no 99% in America: we all are the 1%.

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porky
1\. US only 2\. It seems that "living" does not include almost nothing beyond
the immediate living requirements and it does not take into account times you
cannot work, can't find job, or simply the fact that a person is a little more
than her capacity to be a machine for someone.

~~~
ebg13
> _It seems that "living" does not include almost nothing beyond the immediate
> living requirements and it does not take into account times you cannot work,
> can't find job, or simply the fact that a person is a little more than her
> capacity to be a machine for someone._

This is very much what the US mentality on social care is like, so at least
it's consistent.

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alok-g
The following is much more useful, and covers many more cities across the
world:

[https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/](https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/)

~~~
olcor
I’ve found numbeo to be practically useless for most cities I’ve been to and
stayed. MITs calculator is much more accurate, especially if you are someone
who doesn’t earn a high wage.

Most people aren’t going to stay in Greenwich village/SOHO/UES if they are in
NY, or similar elsewhere. Prices reflected in the MIT calculator seem to take
all areas of living into account, that too by county.

Edit: Numbers on numbeo seem to have improved a lot since the last time I saw
them. Taking back my previous opinion, but I find both to be useful resources.

~~~
taffer
> Most people aren’t going to stay in Greenwich village/SOHO/UES if they are
> in NY, or similar elsewhere.

You can change the assumptions in numbeo too, like for example if you plan to
live outside the city center.

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esotericn
A "living wage" is somewhat of a misnomer because as other posters have stated
it indicates zero surplus.

Really, people have a "cost of living". Their wage only has to be at least
that if they have zero capital.

The idea of basically everyone having zero capital as a default state is
really kind of saddening.

Not withstanding that, I find the 'living wage' discussion centres around what
people get for the minimum wage e.g. can they afford a small room, a studio
apartment, a small house, etc.

Really it makes more sense to look at the absolute minimum living conditions
and whether they have any surplus that will give them future negotiating
power, or the ability to take time off work, etc.

It doesn't have to be that much, if you can live on 15K then on 22.5K you can
bank half a year's expenses per year.

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8077628
I agree this seems low. Both housing and additional expenses. How do I know if
I'm the victim of an hedonic treadmill?

~~~
function_seven
(Edited to add housing comment)

I agree the housing seems low. For my county, it worked out to ~$750 a month
for a single childless household. I’ve never seen a rent that low around me. I
assume shared living must be on the table for this.

As for the other living expenses, and whether you’re on a hedonic treadmill:

* How many meals a month are from a restaurant of any kind?

* How many of the following do you have paid subscriptions for? Cable/satellite, HBO, Showtime, Netflix, Hulu, etc.

* Do you set your thermostat to lower than 75°F/23°C in the summer, or higher than 65°F/18°C in the winter?

* Do you buy cars new? Or almost always have a car payment?

* Any microwave meals or individually packaged snacks?

* Alcohol on any semi-regular basis?

* Coffee that’s more than 25¢ a cup?

None of the above are (moral) value judgements, but they’re really easy to get
accustomed to and not consider as discretionary items.

~~~
apoph3nia
> None of the above are (moral) value judgements, but they’re really easy to
> get accustomed to

Playing economic limbo with constantly updating 'how low can you go?' data as
the stick may be possible to get accustomed to, but isn't necessarily very
fun. Especially when gameplay becomes long-term and repetitive.

I'm not judging your list of examples in particular, but I think you may be a
bit off the mark as to why threads like this appear at all.

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mac01021
The "typical annual expenses" have a row for housing (as they should), in
which the numbers are maybe interesting if you're interested in such things:

\- Unsurprisingly, a single, childless adult has the lowest housing costs.

\- A single adult with 1 child pays a lot more for housing, presumably because
the child requires its own bedroom.

\- Adding a second child has no effect on the housing cost, presumably because
the two children may share a bedroom. I understand this, but it is interesting
that someone who is willing to make their kid share a room is unwilling to
share a room with their kid.

\- 2 adults with no kids pay slightly more than a single adult (i guess they
need a little more space, but can still share a bedroom?)

\- 2 adults with 2 children have EXACTLY the same cost as 1 adult with 1
child?

\- A third child seems to require its own bedroom.

~~~
thaumasiotes
> A single adult with 1 child pays a lot more for housing, presumably because
> the child requires its own bedroom.

I find this funny, because it takes several years before a child will stop
actively expressing its preference _not_ to have its own bedroom.

~~~
benj111
My 2.5yr old has never expressed a preference for sleeping in my room. He
likes to come in first thing in a morning if that's what you mean?

~~~
thaumasiotes
No, I mean sleeping in your room.

------
Sutanreyu
I checked the stats for my current city and I have to question just how their
calculating their housing costs... It's not even close to what's actually on
the market at the moment.

~~~
nraynaud
I just checked, I live in Phoenix, in maricopa county, I’m pretty sure lumping
together people living in Maricopa, Phoenix and the suburbs is not valid, you
can’t commute across the county, it’s not a single market.

~~~
metaphor
A bit ironic but Maricopa, AZ isn't actually part of Maricopa County; it's in
Pinal County.

EDIT: Also worth noting that it's a ~45-60 minute commute from Maricopa to
Boeing in Mesa. I make an equivalent commute every weekday--at interstate
speeds for 60% of the route--and don't even leave my city proper. The commute
isn't as unrealistic as you might think.

~~~
jmpman
Maricopa to Boeing is basically 1/4 across the city. Try commuting from
Maricopa to Discover at I-17 and the 202. That would be an hour and a half to
two hours each way.

------
dang
Discussed in 2008:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=363815](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=363815)

~~~
apoph3nia
The discussion is probably more relevant now than it was in 2008 re: expansion
in the ridiculous 'gig economy' sphere since then.

~~~
y4mi
Not necessarily. 2007 was a financial crisis which resulted in another tech
industry crash, so lots of people were searching for new jobs at the time and
couldn't get anything good

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gizmo686
Since others have commented that they found the expense low, I decided to
check mine. In my particular county in Maryland (don't want to give the exact
one for privacy reasons), the total expanses for a single adult match my
experience almost exactly. Excluding retirement and other savings, the
reported total expenses was with 20$/month of my experience.

The housing category seems to assume that a single adult has a roomate though.

------
jmpman
Is this calculator assuming you’re going to retire on Social Security? Just
like having loose lending standards for college causes inflation, not
requiring higher retirement savings simply drives up housing costs in regions
with high demand.

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metaphor
I'm not following the logic behind the annual taxes row. It blows up with
child #1, increases again but not nearly as much at #2, and blows up again at
#3. Wouldn't having dependents reduce your tax liability? Is this some state
tax mechanism? What am I missing?

~~~
crobertsbmw
I think the taxes are based more on the income, which they are suggesting has
to be more to still be livable. So even though you have more dependents, you
are making more money (in order to be livable) and therefore paying more
taxes.

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asah
Hmm. Same housing cost ($21,468/yr) in New York county, New York for:

\- 1 adult, 1 child

\- 1 adult, 2 children

\- 2 adults, 1 child

\- 2 adults, 2 children

~~~
metaphor
What does $1,789/mo lease you in that area?

I suspect the data presumes 2 bedrooms: 1 room for parents, 1 room for
children. The pattern is effectively the same regardless of state/county.

~~~
gshdg
There are plenty of sub-$2k 2-BR apartments to be found in NYC. I’m not sure
where you’d find one in Manhattan (New York County), though. They’re mostly in
the less desirable (whether because of crime or commute time to Manhattan)
outer-borough neighborhoods.

~~~
bradleyjg
I'd look around the last two stops on the 3.

~~~
gshdg
Even if there are a few, it’s weird to describe that as the cost of living in
the borough if only 1% of the housing stock qualifies. You’re definitely not
guaranteed to be able to find an apartment at that price.

~~~
bradleyjg
Yeah, agree that's off.

------
boshomi
If possible, please add median annual salaries and median wage.

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topmonk
Isn't this a lot like Socialism? It's akin to deciding on the price of a pair
of gloves based on what kinds of people need it, how much they would use it,
how long before they need a replacement, etc.

But instead of gloves, we're trying to decide on the cost of labor.

I know I'm dancing around a thorny issue, but I don't think this idea works,
in general. Why not just let the market decide?

~~~
ebg13
> _Why not just let the market decide?_

The market decides on wage stagnation while costs keep increasing and profit
goes exclusively to the upper class. For the vast majority of people, the
market doesn't do a very good job.

