
One Thing You Don't Need To Be An Entrepreneur: A College Degree - ciscoriordan
http://www.avc.com/a_vc/2009/02/one-thing-you-dont-need-to-be-an-entrepreneur-a-college-degree.html
======
Rod
Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg dropped out of Harvard while undergrads. David
Filo, Jerry Yang, Sergey Brin, Larry Page didn't bother to finish grad school
at Stanford and dropped out too. On the other hand, we can think of Craig
Venter, Andrew Grove, Gordon Moore, Carver Mead... all of whom obtained PhD's.

The usefulness of a degree depends on what field one is working on. In the
Software arena, smart kids out of high school can do a lot if college is not
holding them back. But try to start a laser / semiconductor / biotech company
with high school kids if you dare ;-)

One might not need a degree to be a good software entrepreneur, but there are
many other entrepreneurs who don't live in the software world. Sure, HN is
focused on software, but it seems to me that it's irresponsible to promote the
idea that all that entrepreneurs need is passion and hard-work. Necessary but
not sufficient.

~~~
timr
_"In the Software arena, smart kids out of high school can do a lot if college
is not holding them back. But try to start a laser / semiconductor / biotech
company with high school kids if you dare."_

Exactly. We've inadvertently created a culture that rewards extremely shallow
achievements. Thirty years ago, brilliant 20-somethings wanted to send men to
Mars and build super-colliders. Today, the smartest college kids are trying to
build social networks for dogs.

Frankly, that's not a trend worth celebrating. A society where an advanced
education _isn't_ an economic advantage is a society going the wrong way.

~~~
pg
That's just not true. I meet a lot of startup founders who are working on very
hard technical problems and have hopes of changing the world by solving them.
The Etherpads, for example, had to literally prove theorems to get their real-
time collaboration sw to work, and they hope eventually to use it in a whole
range of applications.

You could just as easily argue that thirty years ago (I was actually around
then and old enough to be paying attention), technical people just wanted safe
jobs solving circumscribed problems for large organizations.

The truth is that, all other things being equal, each generation of people is
roughly equally ambitious. Past generations weren't golden ages compared to
the present, or vice versa.

~~~
timr
I don't see how you can argue that each generation is equally ambitious, while
also arguing that the previous generation was seeking out "safe jobs".

I agree that people are probably as ambitious as they were decades ago on an
individual basis, but that _doesn't_ mean that their goals have stayed the
same over time. Even in the last decade, there's been a massive shift of
technical talent toward entertainment technology, whereas it's getting harder
and harder to find R&D jobs in physics, chemistry, biology and computer
science.

There are always a _few_ companies doing interesting technical work, but if
the number of under-employed PhDs I know is any indication, the fraction of
companies doing R&D is pretty darned small, and getting smaller every year.
It's much easier for a PhD in Physics to get a job as a sysadmin at a web
startup than it is for her to get a job in her field. I think that's sad.

~~~
aswanson
I find it frightening that in the U.S. at least, basic research seems to have
seriously declined at the government and large company level. Bell Labs is
gone, and most companies now are focusing on applied rather than fundamental
advances.

And before people start piling on large companies and the government with the
usual rant, try to figure out how you could invent the laser, fiber optics,
tcp/ip, lunar landing, orthgonal frequency division multiplexing , etc, with 2
college dropouts well-versed in rails and javascript.

~~~
Retric
I think there are cycles where technology get's to a state where basic
research has huge value until you have enough basic research to to build a
wave of new technology's. Once you have fully exploited the last wave of
technology you are ready to build the next level of new technology. But, you
rarely change technology's while there is still room to grow the old tech.
Example: Modems starting at 300bps to 56k used the same basic technology, then
DSL, then Fiber.

IMO, there is value to understanding the limitations to existing technology
before you start doing basic research.

~~~
jibiki
Interesting. A counter anecdote would be the advances in physics in the early
20th century, when we were still far from finished innovating with Newtonian
mechanics. I've always doubted the whole "necessity is the mother of
invention" thing; I don't think relativity was discovered because it became
necessary to discover it. On the other hand, when it comes to technological
innovations (semiconductors, transistors, lasers, etc.,) I just don't know
enough scientific history to assess your hypothesis.

~~~
Retric
I think the limitations of Newtonian physics where only discovered as people
built devices that broke them. There is a great time line for that period, but
when you consider the instruments required to make the discovery's you see
they are based on specific assumptions about how the world operates. It's only
when their design reaches their limits that meaningful discovery's can be
made.

<http://timeline.aps.org/APS/Timeline/>

"The Dutch physicist Heike Kamerlingh Onnes finds that mercury loses its
electrical resistance at temperatures near absolute zero. This low temperature
effect is observed in other materials as well."

That takes advanced equipment to reduce things to that temperature, an
expectation that resistance is effected by temperature, and an formula that
works at higher temperatures to notice the discontinuity.

PS: Consider all the benefits high speed computing has provided when designing
aircraft. You need a lot of wind tunnel / real world tests to build a model,
but with that model and lot's of computing power you can design aircraft out
to the limits of your simulation. At which point you need to collect more
data.

------
pg
I've noticed this too. But I worry about encouraging people to drop out of
college. There are probably a lot who don't really blossom till they get
there. Especially those who went to bad high schools.

I think people should at least try a couple years of college, if they can, if
only so they know what they're missing if they don't finish.

~~~
fredwilson
that is in fact what the president suggested in his "non state of the union"
speech this week.

i didn't mean the post to encourage dropping out but upon reading it this
morning, i realize it sort of does that

------
raffi
I didn't read the article but I'll be honest... I'm really thankful for my
education. I taught myself programming when I was young and I thought I knew
everything when I went to college. I was thankfully proved wrong.

College forced me to learn a lot of stuff I wouldn't have bothered to learn
before. Stuff I had no idea would become useful and if I ever needed it may
not have had an idea to look for it.

I have an interest in programming languages and interpreters--college helped
me find and cultivate this interest. I'm working on a startup doing a lot of
natural language stuff--college gave me the foundation necessary to teach
myself the tools of this field quickly.

The theoretical underpinnings of stuff don't go away. Understanding different
string matching algorithms can apply to writing an efficient style checker,
not just making an asinine version of strcmp.

Granted this is all oriented towards technical stuff. I suppose if I wanted to
be just an entrepreneur I could save money and buy a Subway franchise. I don't
think a college education is necessary there either (but I'm sure it doesn't
hurt).

~~~
Hexstream
"I have an interest in programming languages and interpreters--college helped
me find and cultivate this interest."

Wow. We never even came close to studying that kind of stuff at my college
(Computer degree). We just learned some Java and linked lists and trees in the
data structures course, a bit about computer hardware and not much else.

All the really cool stuff like interpreters, compilers, programming languages,
unification, Rete, Common Lisp, etc. I had to learn on my own.

Did I simply attend a subpar college or you attended a great one?

~~~
smokey_the_bear
Wow. We did the linked list and data structures course freshman year. After
that it was all compilers, computability, writing schedulers for micro
controllers, designing a processor in verilog, etc. Lots of really cool stuff
I mostly haven't used since, but it's a great base of knowledge. And I went to
Iowa State, not a top tier computer science school.

~~~
Hexstream
Oh my. It seems what you call college I'd call university (I live in Quebec).

~~~
barry-cotter
In Ireland and Britain college = university. I believe the US has a
~distinction that a college is an undergraduate institution, which may or may
not be part of a university, but the rest of the Anglosphere follows British
usage in that a college is post secondary school though it may not be degree
granting, like the Royal Military College, Sandhurst.

------
siong1987
I live in a country where software and technology is not really blossoming.
The government is trying hard to promote the tech business in the country.
But, nothing is really working at all.

I stopped school for three years before I came to the US to further my studies
here. In those three years, my plan was to start something that could make me
millions. Soon, I realize that this is a dream, I only managed to make decent
amount of money through freelancing. But, I can tell you that you hardly can
go anywhere if you are working alone. Luckily enough, I did learn some
programming in this period.

Then, I decided to come to the US. English is not my first language. I worked
my ass out to get decent score for my SAT. And, luckily enough, I got accepted
into one of the best CS school in US. Here, I met with my current cofounders
with my new startup. And, this is another new process that I have to dedicate
myself to learn something new again(Communication skills, new culture, etc.).

I never regretted to further my studies to college. I met new people here. I
learned new knowledge(Remember, CS is not all about programming). And, I
believe that this year in college actually helped me more than the three years
I wasted.

~~~
thaumaturgy
What country, if you don't mind my asking?

~~~
siong1987
Malaysia.

------
wayne
Another reason this happens in my opinion: If you graduate from a good college
with a marketable degree, you get sucked right into a cushy job at a large
company. If you never got that degree and don't have that job, you're not
giving up as much as the guy who's used to the status and money associated
with the big company job. The opportunity cost of starting a company is less.

~~~
nostrademons
I've found this can be a really big "problem" as well. And it's not just the
temptation of getting sucked yourself into a cushy job. It's that much of your
network, your closest friends, _also_ have that same hot degree and face the
same temptation. Holding a startup together is hard enough in the best of
times; when everyone on the founding team is continually bombarded by really
tempting offers, chances are someone will crack. (Unless you're in a place
where Silicon Valley where working on a startup is definitely "cooler" than
that cushy job.)

My startup died when my cofounder got into Harvard Business School and I got
into Google (we're both Amherst grads). 99.99% of America would not call that
a failure. But the bottom line is that my startup's still just as dead.

------
mattmaroon
I've certainly never felt my lack of a degree to be a hindrance in any area
except maybe fundraising. PG wrote once that he had come to the same
conclusion but still had trouble believing it. Most investors never get there
at all.

And I'd imagine even among those like Fred, they still find themselves
impressed by a team of 4 CS grads from MIT. Thankfully for those of us who
college wasn't for, customers are significantly less likely to read your
resume.

~~~
fredwilson
4 CS grads from MIT would be impressive, but more impressive are the two kids
from RISD who raised $32k for their seed capital selling cereal.

it takes chutzpah to make it as an entrepreneur and the cereal guys can hire
the CS grads from MIT easier than the CS grads can get up the courage to sell
800 boxes of cereal at $40/box.

~~~
fallentimes
That's why airbnb is on their way to becoming the largest hotel in the world
without having to own any rooms.

------
tptacek
I graduated high school in 1994. I'd have graduated college in 1998 with a CS
degree. Two startups I held key roles in sold in 8-figure deals in that time
period. I even got to do some academic research. I guess I'm unhappy I didn't
take linear algebra (really!), but I think I'd have had to have been made of
stupid to go to college in '94.

------
dmpayton
I'm 21, working _at_ a startup as an engineer, working _on_ my own small
startup, and making a considerable amount of money over everyone I graduated
High School with. All without a degree.

However, I feel that I've been quite lucky and am far more the exception than
the rule. I'm actually quite jealous of some of my friends who are getting
ready to receive their Bachelors in the next year. As different paths as we
took, I somehow feel that I'm lagging behind them in terms of achievements. So
I'm back in school this semester. Just one class to make _some_ iota of
progress towards my B.S. Comp. Sci.

You certainly don't need a college degree to be a successful entrepreneur, but
I've often found it quite hard to apply theory to practicality when you don't
know the theory in the first place. When all is said and done, I'd like to
have the holes in my knowledge filled and kick that much more ass at what I
do..

------
tonystubblebine
At the first startup I worked for we polled our office of 12 people to see who
had graduated from college. I'm pretty sure the answer was just two people,
myself and the other middle manager. Everybody doing interesting work,
developers, designers, and founders had either skipped or dropped out of
college.

Three of those college dropouts went on to found a company that Fred is
funding. So his story could easily be about those three people.

There are two things I realized after that poll. First, the conventional path
is boring and I needed to jump off.

Second, the amount of work required to be great at something completely trumps
the tiny amount of work that you're going to put in during college. Sure, the
background knowledge is helpful, but only a little bit compared to everything
you're going to have to learn after college.

~~~
light3
Your second point is certainly not universal, some people do a lot of work
during college.

If you know what you really want to do before college, sure go for it, but in
most cases people have no idea, college is a good place to keep busy and learn
about your interests.

~~~
tonystubblebine
I was really talking about the specific work (or practice) that goes into
being great at something, not about misspent youth.

Let's take a computer science degree and a ten year path to great (whatever
that means). If you just measure by time spent, you're maybe coming out of
college 5-20% of the way down the path.

But I'd argue that the computer science degree isn't specific enough to count
nearly that much. Really, you're graduating as an broadly experienced non-
expert who then has to put a boat load of time into developing a specific
expertise.

The value of that time spent outside of college completely trumps the value of
the time spent in college, even if the amount of time spent is equivalent.

------
omnivore
These days, I encourage kids to learn how to hack early and then go to a good
school and network. If nothing else, the contacts are well worth it. It's not
easy to get into the game anymore without the contacts and unless you've got
deep pocketed parents or kooky friends with ambition (and money) you're just
gonna get stuck somewhere less than desirable.

~~~
tptacek
What's the game you're talking about, and what are the contacts you suppose
you'd be making in school?

~~~
omnivore
You're not supposed to do anything. But like all things, opportunities exist
to do something beyond the ordinary. Look for openings, ways to stand out and
to gain experience. College can provide someone who doesn't have their parents
contacts to stand on with the opportunity to build social capital that could
extend to other things.

Game? We're talking business or the "startup game" if you will.

------
aristus
At my first Valley startup job I was the first hire (out of 30) who didn't
have a degree. I gather there was a long discussion about it before I was
hired.

I missed out on some things, especially getting to know good hackers, and I've
probably been paid less over the years. But it hasn't hurt me much. I am under
30 and I have almost 20 years of work experience.

~~~
tptacek
I wound up in the same situation in an interview in 2000. They asked me to do
Towers of Hanoi nonrecursively. I think I refused. Didn't get the gig. Things
worked out anyways (ironically, I wound up at a spinoff of UMich, working for
a professor and his postdoc).

If you don't have a degree and you go interview at (what turns out to have
been) a Stanford spinoff, brush up on your useless CS 101, is I guess my life
lesson there.

------
ctingom
My LinkedIn profile is permanently set to 85% complete because I can't add a
college education.

And I'm 100% happy with my decision to drop out of college after 3 months.

------
jasonlbaptiste
College is a check box, not a select all button.

~~~
igorgue
+1 on that, I'm about to check it, but I see college as a way to make
connections and get to know more people (teachers and students) interested in
the same things I'm.

But yes!, you should do whatever you want to do, college is not an obligation,
like you said a check box not a select button.

~~~
ahoyhere
FWIW, you can hang out with the clubs and associations and _not_ attend
college.

~~~
lifestudent
This is a very important point.

Most people phrase the issue as either attending college or getting some
boring job and missing out on the "college experience"...

The better model is to not attend college, but to hang around the college town
and attend the clubs and associations...and network with the folks that are
doing more than just attending classes...these will be your co-founders :)

The real stuff goes on at night when folks are working on their side projects.

The other benefit of this model is that you don't have mountains of debt from
tuition...so you're able to take more risks later on.

------
enra
I'm 22, soon finished up with first year in Business School and constantly
fighting with myself if I have the patience to graduate. I have worked in the
web industry since I was 16, done freelancing for couple of years, involved
with few startups and currently a co-founder.

I know that I don't necessarily need the degree. For the most part it seems
useless. I'm quite sure I could find a job, my financials are not that bad, I
could even start a startup, but still feel that I'm not somewhat "ready" or
have lucrative options enough to dropout.

My current solution is just to read for the exams and skip most, if not all
the classes and work on other things. Good thing is that college education
here is basically free, so I'm only loosing some time. But still, most of the
time, I dislike everything with institutional education.

------
quizbiz
I just feel like sharing:

I am currently a High School senior. I'm three for three as far as colllege
acceptances go which makes me feel incredible but I am still unsure where I
will be going or how I will pay.

One side of me wants to start a business as soon as possible. Devote my time
to fostering the network of websites I own and expanding my web design
services to clients. There is plenty of other stuff I do as well, but I don't
know if that's a realistic way to go on. I recognize that college will provide
structure when I need it and I hope that it will get me to focus.

I wonder what college did for successful entrepreneurs. Rather how to take the
most of college as an entrepreneur.

~~~
pg
Try college! (If you can afford it.) You don't even know what all the options
are yet.

~~~
gcheong
By afford do you mean, can pay for without racking up student loan debt? I
don't quite understand the qualification here.

~~~
pg
I added that qualification because I know not everyone may be able to afford
to go to college, especially in poorer countries. I wouldn't presume to say
precisely how much debt one could afford, and on what terms. I just didn't
want to seem like I was assuming everyone had the option of going to college.

------
releasedatez
I've noticed a trend tho. The dropouts that became successful were dropouts
from Ivy League schools. Does that mean people from second tire schools should
stay in school and finish their degree?

~~~
ido
Perhaps it means people with a wealthy background have a higher chance of
trying to start their own business?

~~~
nostrademons
It undoubtedly helps. There're plenty of counterexamples though: Steve & Steve
from Apple, for one. And I don't think it's more that they have a higher
chance of _starting_ a business, it's more that they have a higher chance of
finding the _money and time_ to succeed with their new business.

Also - the elephant in the room is plain old intelligence. Ivy League colleges
tend to admit smart people, at least as closely as they can determine
(there're always a few doofuses who sneak in, but they are a smaller
proportion than at community colleges). Smart people have a higher chance of
trying to start their own business, and a higher chance of being successful
once they've tried.

------
vladimir
Of course, every system of education does not encourage characteristics of
good enterpreneurs - independence and thinking differently. They are crerated
to produce good workers - those people who will work for enterpreneurs. And I
don't think this atricle encourages people to drop out of college - those who
have bravity to do this will do it anyway, and others will finish grad school.

------
djahng
I just saw Johnny Cupcakes speak at UCSB last night. He's also a college drop
out. While there are plenty of college drop out entrepreneurs that are very
successful (e.g. Bill Gates), there are also a lot of successful entrepreneurs
that are college graduates. An MBA is more debatable.

------
ahoyhere
Why does this topic keep coming up?

The same comments, the same threads, the same post-hoc justification (from all
sides), the same faulty logical extrapolation, the refutation of
aforementioned, etc., etc., etc.

"Anti"-college people: Hi! You do not need an article on a blog - even a great
blog from an expert - to justify your life decisions.

"Pro"-college people: Hi! You do not need to act uncomfortable because you
_did_ go to college. What an idea. Where's the defensiveness coming from?

"Try inventing anti-cancer shark-mounted LASERS without college degrees!" /
"You sure wouldn't hire a BRAIN SURGEON without a degree!" people: One of
these things is not like the other. The kids who bypass university thinking
they will strike it rich with a social network for iguanas would not go on to
invent anti-gravity boots -- or torts -- if _only_ they'd tough it out thru 4
years in a state school.

Who'd I miss?

Remember, folks, historically speaking, many of the world's greatest minds had
no university education in their fields. And a lot of them did, too.

Who the fuck cares?

EDIT: PS: I dropped out of high school at 14. Take that!

~~~
likpok
As a reasoning for the defensiveness: Each side is basically marginalizing the
other. The anticollege people suggest that college is worthless and
(occasionally) the people who go there are similar.

The procollege people suggest that people without a degree are lesser or
cannot achieve as much because of it.

This leads to both sides feeling attacked, and for them to attack back. What
you said is basically true, though. College is a _choice_ which is good for
some people, bad for others. Some people excel with the pedagogy, and go far
further than they could have on their own. Some subjects require this (or, to
turn it around, in some subjects pedagogy is so effective that people without
it are at a significant disadvantage). Some, however, do not.

Colleges are important and useful. Some people don't need/want that level of
analysis. Some people don't need the help. It's a personal decision.

------
chiffonade
Yeah, well, you don't need a college degree to drink a bunch of booze, have
sex with lots of chicks, and do lots of interesting drugs and hang around with
interesting people, but it's how most people go about doing those things when
they're 18-22 years old.

