
“Culture fit” is a two way street (2018) - greenyoda
https://rachelbythebay.com/w/2018/04/25/notequal/
======
ChuckMcM
This is a great post and so spot on. At some point in my career my 'review
prep' (which was the time I spent working on my own evaluation of my year at a
company) became answering the question, "Do I still want to work here?" I
categorize my 'review' in four sections (which are each rated at one of five
levels, needs improvement, sometimes meets expectations, meets expectations,
sometimes exceeds expectations, or consistently exceeds expectations)

I start by reviewing how I'm being managed, I expect someone managing me to be
clear in their expectations of my work product, provide resources when I have
identified the need to complete jobs, can clearly articulate the problem I am
expected to be solving, and can clearly articulate the criteria by which the
solution will be evaluated.

Second I review my co-workers, using a three axis evaluation, can I trust what
they say to be accurate/honest, can I count on them to meet their commitments,
and are they willing to teach me when I don't understand something and
conversely learn when their is something they do not know.

Third I review what level of support do I get to do my job. Am I provided with
a workspace where I can get work done? Do have have the equipment I need to do
what is being asked? Is my commute conducive to the hours required? And
finally and most important, does this job allow me to balance work obligations
and non-work obligations?

Fourth I review whether or not the company mission, ethics, and culture is
still one that I wish to be a part of. Am I proud of the company's mission? Do
I believe that the leadership will make ethical calls even if doing so would
mean less profit margin? Can I relate to and am I compatible with the values
that my co-workers espouse and the actions they take? (this is the "company
culture" theme, is it still a company that fits me culturally)

A company that receives lower than a 3.0 rating I put on a 90 day "company
improvement plan" (CIP). I bring issues to the leadership who are in a
position to address the situations that I've found wanting and try to secure
their commitment to change. If after 90 days they haven't been able to (if
they choose not to they're done right away), then I "fire" the company and
work to process my exit as expeditiously as possible.

~~~
bradlys
Is this something you've always done or only something you've done as you've
gained higher level positions? I'm imagining that compensation is always at
some minimum satisfactory level as well (and it must be rather high unless
you're wealthy or bought a home decades ago or live in some really LCOL
area?). Do you only work at places that you truly want to work at from the get
go?

I can't imagine implementing this at an IC level at a startup. (Which is where
I've been mostly) I could see it at some places where you could switch teams
in a big company and not deal with those same people again. (thus not having
to reinterview fully) I've found that people will change their ways very
rarely unless your loss would ruin them. They're much happier to lose ICs than
change.

~~~
ChuckMcM
Not always, when I got out of school I just went to work.

It helped that my wife was doing similar work (she was a computer programmer)
and we compared notes about our jobs. Now I personally think getting married
was a good choice in my life but for this conversation it was extremely
valuable to have someone at a different company with whom I could be
completely honest and exchange thoughts and ideas with. When my wife left
Xerox for Tandem one of the books she got was called "Divorcing a Company." We
both read it. I would say that book was when I stopped looking at companies
being a "one way" kind of thing, either they want me or they don't.

The book's thesis was that you are in a relationship with the company you work
for, it can be a good relationship, and it can be an abusive relationship.
Looking at your choice to leave, and the things that keep you from leaving, as
you might a divorce from a spouse, can put into perspective who is more "at
fault."

I started thinking about why I was working at a company more critically at
that point and then as time progressed developed a set of things that were the
key factors in my job satisfaction.

To this point, _" They're much happier to lose ICs than change."_ I agree
completely. And that is why for me it was important to accept that people who
won't see a reasonable request for what it is, are not worth wasting your time
with. I doubt I will die thinking "I wish I had worked for an abusive boss
longer" :-)

------
throwaway42688
Throwaway account for obvious reasons.

I’m mid-way through my first experience with this. Some warning flags to add
for anyone wondering if it’s them or you:

\- You’re beginning to wonder if it’s you that’s crazy, despite successful
previous roles.

\- Their conversation has moved from “we” to “I” (or “you” and “us”).

\- Your number of known unknowns (usually people- or business-based) suddenly
spikes for no apparent reason

\- Other people become (comically) formulaic in their response to questions.

\- Feedback channels are quietly shut down because they’re “not really
needed/too much process/etc”

I’ve started thinking of it as “professional gaslighting”, though its
motivations may not be that sinister. My main mistake was not listening to
that feeling that “something is wrong”. It’s surprisingly prescient.

~~~
mpweiher
I've had that (the gaslighting) happen to me so many times.

"You didn't do this assignment"

"Er, yes I did, here it is"

"Well, you didn't keep me up-to-date on it"

"Er, here are my weekly status report e-mails"

"But you know I don't read my e-mails"

Huh?

Another good one was the following: I had assigned one of my reports a task
before going on vacation. During said vacation, my "manager" pulls said report
from that task. Then afterwards dings me for that task not being completed.

Huh?

"We're not paying you your bonus"

"Why?"

"You have to know that yourself".

"I do not, and no, that's not how this works"

"I won't tell you"

Fortunately that was in Germany, so not just crazy, but also illegal.

~~~
DocTomoe
I'm intrigued: What part of German labour laws make it illegal to not tell you
why your employer does not give you a voluntary payment (e.g.: A bonus)?

~~~
mpweiher
As the other commenter wrote: bonuses are variable compensation that is part
of the negotiated contract/wage, so not at all 100% voluntary.

So the employer can refuse to pay the bonus, but they have to give a valid
reason. There are two levels to this: first, basic employment law, which
places very hard limits on what you can do. Second, many companies (like this
one) have agreements between the works council and the company, agreements
that regulate these and other matters and become part of the employment
contract, and are therefore also legally binding and enforceable.

In all cases, the employer has to have valid, provable performance-related
reasons, these have to be communicated to the employee in a timely fashion and
the employee given a chance to improve their performance.

In my case, management was so clueless that they knew none of this, they
thought that bonuses were gifts they can shower on people they favour on a
whim, just like a king to his subjects.

It was a bit of a rude awakening. :-)

They then tried to create a "case" retroactively, but apart from the fact that
there was no case, it also wouldn't have mattered at that time.

------
stuntkite
I'm self taught and have been doing this for 20 years. Most of that in a sort
of survival serial startup mode that eventually stabilized into me having a
clue around the time I turned 30.

I got hired a few years ago for a senior dev/architect/ops + engineering
manager position at a ~5 person startup despite the fact that I was "a bad
culture fit" because most of the staff was phds or masters level educated. At
the time I found it really offensive that they'd even say that. The CEO said
in the same breath "I think hiring you is the closest thing I'll get to
cloning myself." Talk about mixed signals!

As it turns out, that assessment was solidly right. They were entrenched in
policies and behavior that basically guaranteed a tragic failure. And because
of those policies the rescue from mistakes always fell on my doorstep well
past when it would be trivial to solve the problem. This created a
horrifically unpredictable work environment.

All and all, it was a growth experience and I probably gave the company a year
of life it wouldn't have had otherwise. I would never take another job where
that was said to me though.

------
gopalv
> Also, due to the continued rampant mistreatment of people under our visa
> situation (ranted about elsewhere), a lot of them have to put up with far
> more shit.

That is perhaps the understatement within the whole article.

The ability to push some people further than others before they tap out,
results in an environment where that is the normal level of stress.

And those who can survive it, but don't want to tend to be marked out as
"problems", instead of acknowledging that the insanity is temporary and
everyone should/will take a break to recover instead of just burning out one
person at a time, while keeping the hiring pipeline trickling in to cover
that.

~~~
mr_toad
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out ...

------
m0zg
Cuture fit is a blank check to fail a person's interview just because you
didn't like them in the first 30 seconds. Short of the candidate showing some
glaring interpersonal issues (I once had a guy who used the word "fuck" during
his interview like 100 times) it is categorically impossible to establish in a
45 minute interview whether a person is actually a "fit" or not. So it's
mostly a legitimized form of hiring bias. Too old? That's a poor "culture fit"
right there.

~~~
el_dev_hell
> Cuture fit is a blank check to fail a person's interview just because you
> didn't like them in the first 30 seconds.

I hear this all the time. Yeah, that might be true in some cases, but it's
also valid in quite a lot of instances (like the example you provided).

> it is categorically impossible to establish in a 45 minute interview whether
> a person is actually a "fit" or not

I've run/sat in on several trainwreck interviews over the years (for ad
account manager roles and logistical analyst roles mostly). Here are a few
examples of candidates that were perfect in every way until the interview
based on culture fit:

* The guy that mentioned he only traveled to Thailand because ladyboys do it better.

* The guy that mentioned he wouldn't work with anyone that drank alcohol because it's "the retardant of the masses". Fair enough opinion. About 20% of our ad sales came from alcohol-related businesses. I asked if he would have a problem dealing with liquor businesses. He explained that wouldn't be a problem as long as they didn't ask if he drank.

* I was sitting in on an interview with the Marketing Director for an account management gig on a Monday morning. We asked the candidate if she did anything noteworthy over the weekend. She told us she went dancing with her friend "Molly" at a music festival and laughed.

* The analyst that mentioned he scrapes NSFW subreddits in his spare time and links throwaway accounts to main accounts based on comment history, similar subreddit crossover, posting times, and vernacular (his tool was pretty impressive -- it sent him an email whenever it had a hit with over 50% accuracy or something which he received during the interview).

~~~
vfc1
What's the problem with dancing with Molly?

~~~
twoquestions
Molly is a drug, so basically they said they got high all weekend. I don't
have a problem with it personally, but a lot of workplaces do.

~~~
heavenlyblue
To be absolutely fair, being all into drugs myself - if someone actually used
a phrase “I danced at a festival with my friend molly”, I would absolutely
never want to spend my time with them again.

That literally is the trashiest thing you can ever say.

~~~
hackinthebochs
What's your definition of trashy here if its not simply using drugs?

~~~
Auready
There's a big difference between using drugs discreetly and using drugs and
talking about it in an inappropriate situation.

~~~
hackinthebochs
If its not immoral to use drugs it shouldn't be immoral to talk about it.
"Trashy" is just an label for behavior deemed unwanted or associated with low
class. But the parent (presumably) deemed using drugs not trashy by his own
admission of using them.

~~~
ghaff
It's also not immoral to have sex. It would be, at a minimum, very odd to
share the blow-by-blow details of such activities the prior weekend with an
interviewer. I don't think I'm being a prude to say I would probably close out
that interview as soon as reasonably possible and move on.

~~~
heavenlyblue
By my definition of “trashy” - it’s only “cool” to share the fact that you had
sex with someone when you’re 15.

Same is here: I can imagine many situations where discussing the effects of
drugs and your experiences of them to be interesting. But “I spend a weekend
dancing with molly” sounds more like a 15-year-old just got access to sex for
the first time.

------
sixothree
The company I work for definitely hires people who are not a "culture fit" and
our company is better for it. People who bring different perspective make your
products stronger.

~~~
cwyers
I think the word "culture" is overloaded, such that it's really hard to talk
about and you can make it mean whatever you want, but there's a use for it
that I don't know a better way to describe in a word. Yes, there is "culture
fit" in terms of things that don't matter, and where it does good to push a
company outside of a comfort zone in order to get the best people and new
perspectives.

But at a certain point, you need to get alignment between what work you find
rewarding/fulfilling/exciting and what work a company tends to recognize and
reward. This essay I think gets at the heart of it:

[http://yosefk.com/blog/people-can-read-their-managers-
mind.h...](http://yosefk.com/blog/people-can-read-their-managers-mind.html)

If you are a programmer, which kind of organization do you think you would
tend to want to work at, all things being equal: one where the organization's
culture is set by people who come from programming backgrounds or sales
backgrounds? It's not the same answer as if you were a salesperson. (And of
course, there are programmers who probably prefer the culture at a place
driven by salespeople, and vice versa. And you can start to think about why
that might be.)

As an employee, what a good culture fit means is "someplace that values and
rewards the things I want to be doing." As an employer, a good culture fit is
someone who responds well to the incentives you have in place for them.
Sometimes, cultures are just objectively bad; anywhere that judges programmers
by how many lines of code they write alone is establishing perverse
incentives. But sometimes cultures are not better or worse objectively, just
different. Some people work better in a research culture and some people work
better in a product culture, for instance. That's fine. But that's where
finding out if you and an employee are a culture fit can benefit both parties,
not just be an excuse to hire only people you like. It's not about beliefs,
it's about what work is valued and how it's valued.

~~~
Double_Cast
Another point of alignment is social protocols. The point of a protocol is
commonality. "let's agree to disagree" isn't a solution.

------
joe_the_user
Any kind of "fit" should be a two-way street but it usually isn't (or maybe
it's nine lane super highway one-direction and pitted gravel road in the other
direction). They have lots of money that they might spend on your arguably
good skill set. You have a bit of money you might use to hold out until one
better fit comes along.

They (for a sad portion of "they") can afford crappy "fits" in terms of
competence if it flatters them in one or another fashions or a person shows a
willingness to throw umpteen hours into the cause. What can you afford?

~~~
tim58
> You have a bit of money you might use to hold out until one better fit comes
> along. > What can you afford?

I've done contracting work in between W2 jobs. In the full swing of
contracting I make ~25% more money but I prefer the stability and
simplistically of working a full time salary position (guaranteed two
paychecks a month, better health insurance, fully clocked out by 6pm). I
absolutely won't go into a full time salary position unless the company and
culture is a very good fit and the pay is competitive.

If you know how to code and have something that proves you do (CS degree, work
history, github etc) you should never feel stuck at one place. If a company
isn't treating you with excellence you can make more money as an independent
contractor.

~~~
C1sc0cat
Why Only 25% ?

I just had to point out in the UK to a recruiter pitching me a short term
contact at straight time instead of at contract rates is taking the piss.

------
anyonecancode
I think that like any category of evaluation, it works best if it's specific,
consistent, and planned.

Eg "Part of our culture is that we are collaborative; when we discussed code
reviews and the candidate said they think they are a waste of time, that
raised a flag because constructive and timely code reviews is an expectation
for all our our engineers" That's pretty good.

"Our culture is collaborative. This candidate didn't feel like they'd be a
good fit here." That's not so good.

Have an evaluation criteria going in. Rate candidates on the the same
criteria. In debriefs, use specific examples from the interview to explain why
you rated them as you did. Otherwise, it's just post-hoc rationalization of a
snap emotional decision.

------
bertil
Absolutely. Azure? “We take care of technical debt as we go”? You don’t know
your engineers retention off the top of your head, but half of the projects
I’m supposed to interface with have lost their tech lead and you can’t replace
any? I’ve asked a non-technical executive what is a rollback and they didn’t
know?

It’s not me, darling, it’s you.

------
BFLpL0QNek
For all the rhetoric in the tech industry over diversity, "Culture Fit" seems
a bit of a catch all exit hatch and anything but diverse.

~~~
Traster
Well, let's be real - there's good diversity and bad diversity. No one says
"We need more diversity" and means "At the moment everyone in the office has
good hygiene standards, let's bring in someone who smells".

The problem is that "Culture Fit" is often undefined - rarely is it explicit
enough for us to say: "Our culture is x,y,z. This person showed this behavior
so it's a no".

Although one thing I will say as an interviewer is I've had to reject
candidates on "Culture Fit" in the past based on things like "This candidate
talks way too much and it's so disruptive and frustrating that I literally
can't get through the competency part of the interview". However, there is no
way I'm going to feed that back to the candidate- so often Culture Fit is used
as a neutral way of rejecting someone.

------
mharroun
As someone who has built and led many engineering/product teams interviewing &
evaluating for/on culture is super important.

One key thing though is making sure everyone on the team understands our
culture, and applies is somewhat fairly.

Personally I define "culture" as following the values set by the company and
the department.

At my current place what are the core culture concepts we look out for (in a
nutshell):

\- Valuing the delivery of functional & sustainable products over checking
boxes or coming up with impressive/resume-building solutions

\- Everyone is expected to support, teach, and grow one another and everyone
has something they can teach.

\- Valuing receiving & giving honest, direct, and valuable feedback.

Many engineers would NOT fit this culture and in some interviews that becomes
very apparent. We also send our values to our interviews before we bring them
on site and reiterate them strongly before giving an offer letter... Thoes who
have ignored this have never lasted to 6 months due to clashes with
deliverables and with other team members.

------
notacoward
This is very true, but it's also important to remember that the drift might
not indicate that anyone has lost their way. The needs at a company of twelve
people are different than the needs at a company of a hundred, a thousand, ten
thousand. At the disruptor vs. the incumbent. Pre-profit vs. post-profit. I
know people who have been first developer or first COO/CMO/VPE at multiple
companies, leaving each without any rancor whatsoever when those companies
outgrew their own ideal skillset and working style.

Sometimes people and companies _naturally_ grow apart. While the OP's point
that it's not always your fault is a good one, the conclusion (that if it's
not your fault it must be the company's) does not follow. Sometimes it's not a
fault. It's just a thing that happened.

------
billsix
> Look at a statement of equivalence. You might say that "A is equal to B" or
> "A == B". There are two "flows" going on there: A has to match up with B,
> sure, but B also has to match up with A.

Weird way to describe the symmetric property of equality from discrete math
201

~~~
rachelbythebay
Math? Me? Not so much.

If it sounds like some profound theorem then I assure you it’s entirely
coincidental.

------
Balgair
> If really good people who are able to literally work anywhere are still at
> your company even though they don't have to be, it's probably doing pretty
> well. If those same people then turn around and leave the company, you
> should worry. They are the canaries in the coal mine, and fail first. It
> takes much longer for it to filter down to the folks who don't have the
> privilege of having so much flexibility and so many options.

Reminds me of this advice as well; [https://steveblank.com/2009/12/21/the-
elves-leave-middle-ear...](https://steveblank.com/2009/12/21/the-elves-leave-
middle-earth-%E2%80%93-soda%E2%80%99s-are-no-longer-free/)

------
jillesvangurp
To paraphrase Joel Spolsky, using cultural fit for dismissing a candidate has
a high risk being a form of discrimination:
[https://www.stackoverflowbusiness.com/blog/the-trouble-
with-...](https://www.stackoverflowbusiness.com/blog/the-trouble-with-culture-
fit)

------
mrcactu5
[http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PerpendicularBisector.html](http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PerpendicularBisector.html)

------
mieseratte
You’d be amazed at corporate ability to find excuses for their canaries
departure. Sometimes to the degree that you could be forgiven for assuming
their goal was downsizing without layoffs.

~~~
hnzix
_> downsizing without layoffs_

It's the most destructive form of downsizing for the company, as the competent
staff who have options jump ship and only the dregs are left hanging around.

~~~
AstralStorm
And the good people _will_ bad-mouth you later. Losing you further potential
good hires.

------
draw_down
I think “culture” is a vague word that can be made to do a lot of work, a
weasel word. Culture as a reason for not hiring someone strikes me a very
suspicious. There should be a concrete reason the person is not fit for the
work as part of a no-hire decision.

“Culture” should be an emergent property of the people who work at the
company.

------
golemiprague
The thing is, homogenous teams perform better than diverse ones, contrary to
the common agenda these days. But you can't say I want everybody in my team to
be more or less same as me, same culture, same behavioural codes, same common
sense and all those things that makes a team perform smoothly like a well
oiled machine. So instead they invent all kind of terms and roundabout ways to
get to the same results while preaching to the masses about diversity and all
kind of nonsense like that.

~~~
greenyoda
> homogenous teams perform better than diverse ones

What evidence do you have for this, and how do you define "homogeneous"?
(Homogeneous in terms of what attributes?)

Maybe you've just been on teams where the people aren't very good at getting
along with people who are different from themselves. For example, if adding a
well-qualified woman to a team of men causes the team to lose productivity,
that's probably a sign of immaturity in the team, not a problem with the new
member.

------
exabrial
"Culture fit" is a cop out for discrimination.

------
tehjoker
Companies don't have cultures. They have ways of demanding more of workers
though propaganda.

That's why this stuff always feels hollow and twisted.

~~~
FooHentai
Companies stated culture != it's actual culture.

The employees of any organization develop culture in how they interact (this
is the real org culture), but some organizations also try and steer towards
the culture they consider 'ideal' (the false culture you allude to). This
attempt is often ham-fisted, and often fails.

