
The Hackers Russia-Proofing Germany’s Elections - happy-go-lucky
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-06-27/the-chaos-computer-club-is-fighting-to-save-democracy
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Gravityloss
Why would elections have to involve machines, nevermind computers?

I have studied, worked with and spent free time with computers a lot, for many
decades, and I think I know quite a lot more about them than the average
parliament member or other representatives. I have also worked as a volunteer
at a voting place so I know at least partially how voting works, and which
safeguard processes it includes.

I do not find computers useful for the voting process. I find them very
detrimental to trust, and practically impossible to safeguard for voting. I
strongly oppose using computers in anything in the critical path related to
voting.

~~~
josu
Paper ballots are just as easy to manipulate. Computers+blockchain should be
the future of voting. Verifiable votes are something that paper ballots will
always lack, and the computers could bring that to the table. However, this
would make vote buying so much easier, so it probably wouldn't work for most
developing countries.

~~~
kahnpro
Paper votes are difficult to manipulate _on a massive scale_.

You can stuff some ballot boxes and turn a polling station. But to do the same
across the country to rig the election? At this point your country probably
has worse problems and they won't even bother counting votes, but announce
wholly fabricated numbers.

With electronic voting, it becomes trivially easy for a single hacker to
falsify the entire election in one fell swoop.

~~~
josu
>on a massive scale.

Usually you can't to manipulate elections "on a massive" scale to win,
regardless of the format of the ballot. If the polls are 50/30 and the 30 ends
up winning the elections, it will always be too obvious. Elections are usually
stolen on the margins, look at most apparently-rigged-but-not-obviously
elections in history.

>At this point your country probably has worse problems and they won't even
bother counting ballots, but announce wholly fabricated numbers.

And yes, usually, when an election rigging scandal comes up, the country has
more serious problems than vote manipulation.

>With electronic voting, it becomes trivially easy for a single hacker to
falsify the entire election in one fell swoop.

But yes, I wouldn't say "trivially easy", but yeah, a lone wolf would never be
able to falsify paper vote elections.

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TeMPOraL
God, that headline ("The Hackers Russia-Proofing Germany’s Elections"). Has it
been ever conclusively proven that Russia hacked any election? Or is it just
repeating unwarranted accusations in a form as if they were already facts?

~~~
ideonexus
Yeah. The evidence is pretty overwhelming at this point:

[http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/26/us/2016-presidential-
campaign-...](http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/26/us/2016-presidential-campaign-
hacking-fast-facts/index.html)

The fact that Reality Leigh Winner is being charged with leaking classified
information on the Russian government's phishing-attack on computers at an
American voting machine company confirms that leak was valid. Then last week a
DHS official said the Russian government was targeting voting systems in 21
states. And these two things happened just this month. The evidence has been
mounting for over a year now.

~~~
ythn
To me it seems disingenuous to call that "election hacking".

"Election hacking" conjures images of manipulating voting machines, but what
Russia did based on that link you provided was simply find unsavory things the
DNC has done in order to bring negative PR to the party.

~~~
CharlesW
> _To me it seems disingenuous to call that "election hacking"._

Really, you've never heard of social engineering/hacking?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_hacking](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_hacking)

~~~
KekDemaga
If I broke the pin on your smartphone and obtained evidence of infidelity on
your part and gave it to your wife, did I hack your marriage?

~~~
willvarfar
You hacked his phone. You influenced his wife.

~~~
ythn
Wife hacking?

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pjc50
The strange thing is I've not heard any substantial allegations of "hacking"
in the UK's recent snap election. Possibly it was called with too short notice
for any to be organised. The other possible conclusion is that the British
government is doing too good a job at weakening itself for the Russians to
risk interfering...

(There is an allegation that a large chunk of Saudi money was given to the
DUP, now coalition minor partners:
[http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/election-
dup-b...](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/election-dup-brexit-
donations-saudi-arabia-tale-tories-theresa-may-a7782681.html) )

~~~
have_faith
The article is very interesting but seemed to stop short of finishing off the
journalism that was started. Interestingly no link between Saudi money and the
DUP was actually established at all. Not that there probably isn't hidden
connections.

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Tomte
Unfortunately, the headline with "Russia" in it distracts everyone. I almost
didn't click through to the article, and was pleasantly surprised that it is
not at all about Russia or election hacking, but about the Chaos Computer Club
and its standing in society and the institutions.

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noir_lord
> Said Linus Neumann

Given that name how could he not be hacker.

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Freestyler_3
I guess Russia-Proofing is a bit click-baity.

I mean, unless they are really only focussing on attacks by Russia. What I
think helps a lot is awareness and preventing human error (taking the phishing
bait).

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jancsika
Is there anything like the CCC in the U.S.?

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basicplus2
Pencil and paper is pretty hard to hack.. social engineering in the other
hand..

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adrianN
Social engineering... also called election campaigns?

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JohnTHaller
I didn't realize foreign powers running massive botnets on Facebook and
Twitter to share fake news stories was considered an 'election campaign'.

~~~
unityByFreedom
It's more than that. Advertising is legal as long as it's not libel.

Hacking into machines that store voter data isn't legal.

[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-13/russian-b...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-13/russian-
breach-of-39-states-threatens-future-u-s-elections)

~~~
travmatt
But it is helpful for voter targeting, especially when you pass that
information onto republicans who offer to buy it. Also helpful is targeting
swing state databases and deleting the voter registrations of people who you
think would vote against your candidate.

