
How a French scholar was treated at US airport - DyslexicAtheist
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffingtonpost.fr%2Fhenry-rousso%2Fmuslim-ban-donald-trump-etats-unis%2F&edit-text=
======
timeu
Something along these lines (although by far not that bad) happened to me when
I traveled to NYC for vacation of New Years Eve 2016/2017(this was before
Trump took office). At the border control I was asked to follow the officer
and wait in a room. I was waiting with a couple of other people but most
people there were only waiting because of small formalities with their
passports and they could leave after a couple of minutes. I thought it will be
the same for me. However in my case the officer who was also checking my
passport at the border control asked me to follow him into a separate room
where I had to do a 40 minutes interview telling him basically my entire life
history (names of all my relatives, where they live, which countries I have
visited, all my social media accounts). I did so and the officer was friendly
and after the interview I asked him why such a thorough interview. He
responded that this is above his pay grade. the computer spits out names
randomly and this was a level 1 interview. If he had been more suspicious of
my answers the interview would have taken much longer. This was probably due
to my background and name. My mother is from Iran and my father from Turkey.
One month later (Trump was already in office) I had to travel again to the US
(this time to LA) and I had zero problems but probably because they already
had all the information.

~~~
rhapsodic
_> Something along these lines (although by far not that bad) happened to me
when I traveled to NYC for vacation of New Years Eve 2016/2017(this was before
Trump took office)._

Incidents like this have probably happened hundreds of thousands of times
throughout history, at customs checkpoints for many different countries. But
now that Donald Trump is the president of the United States, a certain
percentage of the ones that pertain to entry into the US will become
international news stories that will routinely make it to the front page of
HN.

~~~
timeu
I still think that it became "worse" over time although and that's started to
happen way before Trump.

I February 2002 I traveled to NYC and back then I had a glaring visa stamp
from Iran on the first page of my passport. At the border control the officer
asked me about that visa and why I had it. I told him that I was visiting
relatives and he was satisfied with that answer. Approx. 2 years ago I was
traveling to Boston and then had another check at the border and this time I
was asked some basic questions (where I go, what my purpose of visit, etc) for
10 minutes in a separate room. The last visit to NYC in 2016 was a thorough 40
minute of questioning. So in my experience it definitely got "worse"

------
stereo
This is nothing new, and the same thing happened to this American going to a
conference in Europe in 2016:

[https://medium.com/@rachelnabors/wtfuk-73009d5623b4#.1079ksb...](https://medium.com/@rachelnabors/wtfuk-73009d5623b4#.1079ksbw7)

HN thread:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11876453](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11876453)

~~~
NoirDesir
UK is not Europe.

~~~
cr1895
Yes, it most definitely is part of Europe, and it is currently still part of
the European Union too.

~~~
NoirDesir
Member of the European Union, not member of the Schengen Area... UK has always
been whimsical and not reflecting the "European" values... thus, UK is not
Europe.

They're free to run things the way they like, but please don't keep telling
that UK is Europe... especially after they chose and got the Brexit... not a
single true european will endorse its mistakes.

~~~
cr1895
Brexit is solely related to UK membership within the European Union. It is
wrong to conflate being a part of Europe with being a part of the European
Union.

Throughout history the ties between what is now the UK and what is now
continental Europe are deep and inseparably intertwined (both culturally and
geographically); it is absurd to to claim that the UK is "always whimsical"
(whatever that means) and does not reflect "true" European values, whatever
those may be. Look even closer within the UK and the Republic of Ireland...how
is one European and the other not?!

The UK is and will foverver be part of Europe, period. This has no bearing on
your opinion of who is or is not a "true European."

~~~
cr1895
Too late to edit, but continental -> contiguous. UK is already continental
Europe; they're on the same plate.

~~~
grzm
The common understanding of _continental Europe_ does exclude the U.K.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Europe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Europe)

~~~
cr1895
Ah ok, thanks for the clarification. I was thinking in terms of Alaska vs the
rest of the US.

------
nraynaud
For an added bonus: he is an historian expert in the Vichy government. So I
guess he knows a bit about rounding people for deportation and internement
camps at the southern border.

------
staticelf
I am about to visit the US soon. I am planning not to bring my personal phone
and computer. It feels like I am going to visit China, not the US.

I would probably not personally pay for a trip to the US now.. I don't want to
pay a lot of money in order to be rejected at the border.

~~~
DyslexicAtheist
this is worth reading then [https://medium.com/@thegrugq/stop-fabricating-
travel-securit...](https://medium.com/@thegrugq/stop-fabricating-travel-
security-advice-35259bf0e869#.m72h1wrsa)

EDIT (what to do):
[https://twitter.com/thegrugq/status/829855684636274688](https://twitter.com/thegrugq/status/829855684636274688)

~~~
coldpie
That's kind of a worthless article. What's the solution, then? Just accept
that all of your private data will be copied by the government? Don't travel
at all?

Edit: Also, the same guy explicitly encourages lying about your social media
accounts two posts prior to that one. Which is it, chief?

~~~
d_theorist
I don't think it's worthless to point out that a number of strategies are bad,
and likely counterproductive. It might just be the case that there _are_ no
good foolproof methods for getting through the US border without any negative
effects on your privacy or convenience.

The only real solution is to change government policy.

~~~
coldpie
The evidence seems at odds with this guy's suggestions. We've heard lots of
stories about people being stopped and required to hand over devices. I'm not
aware of any stories of people being stopped simply for not having devices.

------
xutopia
I realize this is exceptional but I've spoken to a few Canadian friends who
aren't bothering to visit the USA anymore. Avid travellers and hikes a lot of
them are going to spend more time within their country and Europe during this
presidency.

The simple idea that we might have to give our social media passwords is
revolting more than a few... this story just adds to this feeling.

~~~
udev
In addition to that, I now place a premium on flights that don't have
connections through US. They just seem more attractive, even if at higher
price.

I realize I might need to go to US, e.g. for business, and that's fine. But
for sure the random weekend hiking in the Adirondacks is now way less likely
to happen.

------
teddyh
I wondered why a “French scholar” would have so much trouble. Near the end, he
reveals: “ _Maybe it 's my birthplace, Egypt_ [..]”, which, if indeed he looks
Egyptian and not French, goes a long way towards explaining it. Racism is a
thing.

~~~
neves
This guy looks like my grandpa:
[https://www.google.com.br/search?q=henry+rousso&safe=active&...](https://www.google.com.br/search?q=henry+rousso&safe=active&client=firefox-b&biw=1403&bih=889&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi8vcr_yLDSAhXFIpAKHRKpAx0Q_AUIBigB)

~~~
teddyh
Huh. I guess my hypothesis was incorrect.

------
fowlerpower
The article gives me anxiety. It gives me anxiety that people can be held at
our borders for hours and sometimes days (in my country non the less). All
because some junior border officer did not understand the visa type well
enough. How can they not even apologize? How can they not even acknowledge
these types of errors.

Will they do this to us when we travel abroad on a tourist visa?

~~~
monodeldiablo
Will other countries begin to reciprocate? Will other countries/institutions
begin demanding compensation for wrongful detention/deportations?

Perhaps my biggest concern is this: How long until this pushes someone over
the edge? It's precisely this kind of persistent harassment that can convince
an angry, disaffected young man that, yes, the system really is rigged against
him.

~~~
krzrak
> Will other countries begin to reciprocate?

We shouldn't. A trait of civilized society is that it doesn't reciprocates on
the barbarians with their methods.

~~~
tartuffe78
Historically I don't think that's ever been true.

------
dmode
People are naive if they think this has nothing to do with Trump. I know
friends and relatives whose visa applications are now being routinely denied
for no reason. The executive branch provides guidance on how to implement laws
that are pretty vague. So they have wide discretion and control over the
behavior of the border agent. Let's face it, the tough guy border agent is a
mall cop. Once you tell him that your priority right now is to do "extreme
vetting" of foreigners they are going to step over their boundaries. This is
only the start of such stories and there will be more to come. Yesterday I
read that a computer scientist from Nigeria was similarly detained and asked
to write code. There is an excellent NYT story about how ICE has been
empowered to make wide arrests and I am pretty sure they are routinely
violating civil rights and Constitution every day now

------
Rexxar
For french speakers, here is the direct link :
[http://www.huffingtonpost.fr/henry-rousso/muslim-ban-
donald-...](http://www.huffingtonpost.fr/henry-rousso/muslim-ban-donald-trump-
etats-unis/)

~~~
clebio
I'm curious how good the translation is. I could read the translated article
(the English version), but there were clearly some weird words. Is there
anything off in the translation at a higher level?

~~~
jcranmer
I read the French version and only skimmed the English version. Didn't seem
anything terribly off to me.

~~~
rocky1138
What about the part where the policeman beat the woman for having a child
running in all directions?

~~~
JeromeLon
French version: "Une policière engueule une femme dont le garçon de trois ans
court dans tous les sens".

So, the policewoman bawled the woman out. No beating involved.

~~~
startupdiscuss
I was worried about that as well.

------
ritchiea
For everyone on HN that's afraid of being harassed for their politics because
of how Trump support was received, this story and worse ones to come are
exactly what we were afraid of coming from Trump. This was never just about
policy, the current administration is giving license to treating people who
don't look "American" enough with suspicion and they made that intention clear
in their campaign.

If this was just about tax rates and government spending policies no one would
be nearly as upset.

~~~
nmeofthestate
>this story and worse ones to come are exactly what we were afraid of coming
from Trump.

To dial back the hyperbole for a second, we've seen this kind of story
happening before Trump took office, and in countries other than the US.
Crossing borders carries with it a non-zero chance that you'll be treated like
total crap and even when you're lucky enough that the system corrects itself
you'll almost certainly get no apology. Having said that, there is no reason
why this kind of thing should be tolerated.

Edit: somebody else remembered the similar story from last year.

~~~
mercer
I agree that it's too early to be certain that Trump taking office makes a
difference. I've certainly had concerns and bad experiences entering the USA
well before Trump.

That said, I don't think it's all that strange to be extra worried now that
Trump is in charge. It makes complete sense to think that things will get even
worse under Trump, although I'm open to arguments to the contrary because I'd
love to be proven wrong!

------
pier25
In 2007 I crossed the border on bus going from Montreal to NY. The girl I was
travelling with was accused of illegal importation of fruits because she was
carrying an apple for the trip.

~~~
KKKKkkkk1
What happened to her?

~~~
jknoepfler
A minor delay and a confiscated piece of fruit, most likely.

~~~
pier25
Yes, that was it.

------
geggam
How is it the same people working for one president less than 60 days later
act so different ? or are they ?

~~~
skocznymroczny
Probably it's been like that always at the US border, it's just now it's
popular to showcase such stories as an example of "look what Trump did to our
country". I heard of horror stories at the US border way before Trump took
office.

~~~
Arnt
Obama didn't get blamed for such things because he clearly didn't want them to
happen. They happened, can't tell how often, but he didn't want or intend
that. I didn't have the impression that Dubya wanted to harass random
foreigners either.

Trump, OTOH, is the kind of person who wants to throw out _all_ the Yemeni in
case one of them is another Timothy McVeigh.

~~~
titraprutr
> he didn't want or intend that

You can't really prove this. Something being said in the front of the camera
with a fake smile on the face is one thing, documents being signed that are
not released to the public is a different story.

~~~
lawless123
True ,but we sure as hell know Trump publicly endorses it. Obama wasn't a
lightning rod for this. Trump has made himself one.

~~~
jccc
And that's had a direct effect on the attitude and behavior of immigration
goons:

"[...] the shift — and the new enthusiasm that has come with it — seems to
have encouraged pro-Trump political comments and banter that struck the
officials as brazen or gung-ho, like remarks about their jobs becoming 'fun.'
Those who take less of a hard line on unauthorized immigrants feel silenced,
the officials said."

[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/25/us/ice-immigrant-
deportat...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/25/us/ice-immigrant-deportations-
trump.html)

[https://twitter.com/JameelJaffer/status/835842617103503361](https://twitter.com/JameelJaffer/status/835842617103503361)

~~~
AReallyGoodName
This combined with the fact that they now demand access to your facebook
account on entry means I'm scared to post anti trump comments online. I need
to travel between my birth country and my new home in the USA regularly. If I
get a pro-trump homeland security agent (and it seems many of them are)
scanning my phone. I fear I might be denied re-entry despite having a valid
work visa.

I guess we'll be seeing more and more of this in the near future. I and other
non citizens are now silenced. A few more laws like this to silence a few
other anti-trmup groups and the USA will slowly creep into totalitarianism for
fear of losing everything they have.

I'm just glad my birth country is Australia and I can happily return there
before it gets really bad in the USA. The biggest problem I'm having is where
shall I draw the line where I pack up my life here and return.

------
smcl

        > A police officer beats a woman whose three-year-old runs in all directions
    

Is anyone able to give a better translation of this bit? Looks like the
original sentence was "Une policière engueule une femme dont le garçon de
trois ans court dans tous les sens"

~~~
lamdauf
The original phrase is " Une policière engueule une femme dont le garçon de
trois ans court dans tous les sens". in the context;I think a correct
transalation is " the police-woman shouted at a lady because her three-year-
old child was runing in all directions.

~~~
zouhair
Which is not any better.

~~~
Cuuugi
I think beating a woman is worse...?

------
joncrocks
I think the appropriate outcome depends on whether they were going to be paid
by the US institution.

If you're going to get paid, you need an appropriate visa.

Unfortunately some institutions don't understand this/don't want to understand
this/tell you "it's fine, we do this all the time." But if you say the wrong
thing at the border, you'll be denied entry and it'll get noted down for the
next time you try and enter the country.

~~~
laurent123456
Apparently not as the policeman told him

    
    
        > that the official who examined my file was
        > "inexperienced" and did not know that certain activities, 
        > including those related to research and education, 
        > enjoyed an exceptional regime and could well be carried 
        > out with A simple tourist visa."
    

From what he wrote at the end of the article it's not clear at all why they've
decided to control him.

~~~
joncrocks
edited 'cos I was wrong.

Seems you can get limited payment called an honorarium.

There's some more details here:
[https://travel.state.gov/content/dam/visas/BusinessVisa%20Pu...](https://travel.state.gov/content/dam/visas/BusinessVisa%20Purpose%20Listings%20March%202014%20flier.pdf)

I've travelled to the US quite a few times on different types of visas (lived
and worked there for a few years). It's important to know yourself what is and
isn't allowed, as some people will try and tell you "things are fine, we've
done it loads of times" when in fact they don't understand the restrictions
properly, and it'll be recorded against you and not them when you get denied
entry.

~~~
ghaff
That's my reading as well.

An honorarium is sort of a funny thing because it's not _really_ a payment, or
at least that's the fiction. The theory is that it's more like a thank you
gesture, very possibly at below market rates. Who knows what he actually said
to CBP. If it was something to the effect of "Sure, I'm being paid for my
speech," it's not hard to see this raising a flag.

There really is a broader lesson here that has nothing to do with the current
US president or the US in particular.

Countries in general have a lot of rules about visitors working and what
constitutes "working" from country to country. And many countries have rules
about just about _any_ business activities if you're on a tourist visa.

ADDED: Furthermore re: "things are fine, we've done it loads of times"

I don't get paid when I speak at events. But it's also the case that when I
travel to Europe, I'm not sure I've ever been asked that question. It's
usually "I'm attending a computer software conference" "in XYZ city" "I work
for such and such" etc. If someone were getting paid, I could see it not
coming up for years and suddenly it does for some reason and it's a problem.

------
arca_vorago
Love all the doom and gloom outrage. Just because trump got elected I feel
like way too many people are in a mild form of hysteria, and use any excuse to
vent their uncontrolled expression of emotion.

Look, this was a stupid decision made by a stupid officer. An officer who
lives es in Aggie land too! (For those of you not in Texas, Aggies aka A&M
people are known for being good old country levels of dumb, and are often the
butt of jokes.)

Now, that's not an excuse, but this was an outlier fuckup that has happened
for years before Trump, though I'm willing to grant its probably more likely
to happen with overzealous people in this political climate.

Its funny that the UK has been doing stuff like this to vast amounts of US
persons visiting the UK on the same bad understanding of people giving payed
for speeches/debates, but everyone has suddenly forgotten about that.

Look, there is room for improvement, and officers in this position should be
held to a higher standard by their superiors, but when all you have is a
hammer(outrage mode), everything begins to look like a nail (outrageous
action), so let's work on calming down and being a bit more rational and
focused on practical ways to solve issues please.

------
partycoder
You can assist conferences with a B1 visa.

"Traveling for a scientific, educational, professional or business convention,
or a conference on specific dates" is an intended use case of the visa type.
([https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-
visito...](https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-visitors-
business/b-1-temporary-business-visitor))

However, you cannot get paid for it. In addition the conference must not be
about recruiting.

~~~
peferron
Wrong.

[https://travel.state.gov/content/dam/visas/BusinessVisa%20Pu...](https://travel.state.gov/content/dam/visas/BusinessVisa%20Purpose%20Listings%20March%202014%20flier.pdf)

> Lecturer or speaker: If honorarium will be received, ... [list of conditions
> that the scholar in the article visibly meets].

It baffles my mind why multiple people in this HN thread keep suggesting that
the scholar in the article didn't have an appropriate visa.

~~~
partycoder
Thanks for pointing it out.

------
dandare
It feels like the age of the US is nearing to an end. I am not looking forward
(on behalf of my children) for the transitional period that will follow.

~~~
stagbeetle
On what grounds? From the state of border control? From one measly article?

~~~
Beltiras
Yes from the state of border control and not just this one. CBP is doing
industrial espionage with their phone data seizures. I'm avoiding US
conferences because of it where I have options elsewhere. I imagine many are
doing the same. I probably have to bite the bullet this fall and go to San
Fransisco for a conference. I won't be carrying any electronic devices for
that trip as a security precaution that CBP asks me to unlock my devices so
they can read data. It would be gross negligence towards my employer if I were
to allow them to copy my email correspondence, some of which contains details
about product development. I'm not being hyperbolic about it. I just need to
mitigate the risk.

~~~
taneliv
I consulted for a large non-US technology company, which enforced a policy of
sending people to the US with wiped out laptops, and imaged at the destination
with their standard software. That was more than 10 years ago.

~~~
strictnein
Waste of effort. The US has never been into the industrial espionage game at
the government level.

------
robk
UPDATE: "It turned out this whole story has nothing to do with Egypt or
Holocaust. Historian claimed that he would give a speech for money.
Incompetent CBP officer incorrectly concluded that its a work without a proper
work visa."

~~~
jobigoud
> Incompetent CBP officer incorrectly concluded that its a work without a
> proper work visa.

It's more subtle than that. If it hadn't been for the very specific exception
for scholars it would indeed have been work without a proper work visa.

~~~
johnnyhillbilly
Well, the CBP should bloody well train their staff on the rules they're tasked
with enforcing.

------
getpost
I still don't get it. Assuming it's true that there was a lack of clarity on
whether he had the appropriate type of visa, why was he held 10 hours? Why was
so much time spent on his case?

And why badger a 70 year old Australian children's book author who had visited
the US 116 times previously? [1]

Not to ignore or minimize abuse by CBP officers, but from the CBP perspective,
from the tax payers' perspective, what possible value derives from this
behavior? Is this purely a result of a lack of leadership, bad management, and
hiring unsuitable people for the task?

[1] [https://www.theguardian.com/us-
news/2017/feb/25/australian-c...](https://www.theguardian.com/us-
news/2017/feb/25/australian-childrens-author-mem-fox-detained-by-us-border-
control-i-sobbed-like-a-baby)

~~~
jacquesm
> Not to ignore or minimize abuse by CBP officers, but from the CBP
> perspective, from the tax payers' perspective, what possible value derives
> from this behavior?

I'm fairly sure the net value is a negative, especially when taken in
accumulation.

------
pcr0
I wonder how much the increased rates of unpredictable deportations is costing
airlines, given that they're responsible for paying deportees' return flights.

------
yazbo_mcclure
The leadership in that airport sec seams pretty crappy.

~~~
monodeldiablo
Have you been to one where it was decent? I haven't.

Every single time I've had a run-in with CBP or DHS they have (with two
notable exceptions) come across as a hoard of malicious little fascists,
delighting in how much power -- and how little oversight -- they'd been given
over another person's life.

I was traveling shortly after 9/11 and the National Guard was deployed to many
airports. Fair, calm, and respectful, they were a comparative delight to deal
with.

------
wazoox
I just decided not to go to the US this year. I should have this April but
really, I don't feel like it anymore.

~~~
devmunchies
These are practices that have been going on for a few years. Everybody is
thinking this is a new Trump-era thing, which is not true. It is large scale
confirmation bias. Making life decisions (not visiting the US) based off a
knee-jerk reaction from reading a huffpo article is not helping.

I understand that for foreigners to see trump sworn into office and then all
of these stories pop up would make them think america has changed so recently,
but its not true. It like an episode of the Twilight Zone.

~~~
wvenable
I agree. But supporting what the US has become over the last decade isn't any
better -- the fact that these issues are getting more attention now should not
diminish that reality.

------
blizkreeg
How does this not enrage people more? What can the citizenry do about this
blatant and unrestrained abuse of power?

~~~
nraynaud
Question your president and civil servants: "if you love the constitution so
much, why don't you extend it to the border, and to immigrations matters in
general?".

They are perfectly free to apply due process (or even common sense) at the
border, it's just that they have not been forced to.

------
shitgoose
the border guard was using government AI system, and was triggered by the
rule:

if (visitor.countryOfBirth.ContainsAny(listOfScaryMuslimCountries))
visitor.giveExtremelyHardTime();

irony is that professor is Jewish, but that sub-rule was not implemented yet.

------
nom
I'm not even half through this article but I felt an urge to say this: The
automatic french-english translation is so good, I didn't even notice it at
all. Good work, google!

Edit: now that I'm aware that the text I'm reading is a translation, I see the
errors. I guess my brain just filtered it out. Still awesome though!

~~~
d--b
Beware the translation in some places. Google translates: "Une policière
engueule une femme dont le garçon de trois ans court dans tous les sens" into
"A police officer beats a woman whose three-year-old runs in all directions".
The actual translation is: "A female police officer shouts at a woman whose
3-year-old is running all over the place"

~~~
masklinn
> The actual translation is: "A female police officer shouts at a woman whose
> 3-year-old is running all over the place"

"Berates" feels much closer than "shouts at", "engueuler" is not just general
shouting there's a strong component of scolding to it.

Also "policewoman" if you want to carry gender across the translation, but I'd
say "police officer" is just fine, french requires gendering, english does
not.

~~~
d--b
I am not that good in English so for me shouts at was good enough ;)

Gender is important when we talk about "beating" people though.

I was reading it in English when I read that line and thought that didn't seem
right. I mean, that would have been the title of the article.

------
curiousgal
IANAL but isn't getting paid for an intervention considered a job and thus
requires a work visa?

~~~
angry_octet
It's a special type of payment, often called an honorarium, which is to defray
the cost and inconvenience a visiting academic incurs in order to perform a
voluntary service for their host institution (e.g. participating in a
colloquium). The academic is already generally fully employed at their own
institution. (N.B. TAMU chooses to call them speaker fees and travel
reimbursements, which might be the cause of some of the drama though I doubt
it.)

[https://f2.washington.edu/fm/globalsupport/honorarium-
paymen...](https://f2.washington.edu/fm/globalsupport/honorarium-payments-
foreign-nationals)

Note in particular that the VWB (Visa Waiver - Business) encompasses this type
of payment.

~~~
Symbiote
I wonder why didn't he take a VWB instead of a VWT? It may have saved some
hassle.

I don't remember exactly how it works, but last time I visited the USA for a
conference, I think I ticked the 'business' box. I still got the awful
interrogation they do, but I think everyone's noticed that's been standard for
a few years now.

