
Border between Belgium and the Netherlands at Baarle-Hertog/Baarle-Nassau (2017) - pulisse
https://brilliantmaps.com/baarle-hertogbaarle-nassau/
======
jypepin
That's an interesting story and I wonder why the two governments today
wouldn't work together to clean that up a little bit, since it seems like it's
bringing a fair amount of troubles for the people.

I also wonder if the story about the restaurant clients needing to change
table is true tho. In theory, sure, but come on. Do you really expect police
to come in with a map of the border and enforce the fact that clients should
not be sitting at table #4 but table #5 is ok? That seems a little ridiculous
too.

Also, does that imply that business on the border have to be incorporated in
both countries? If not, does the Belgian business have to comply to Dutch laws
since it's in part physically located in the Netherlands? In that case, is it
really only subject for what's physically in the Netherlands? What if the
kitchen is on Belgium side, The Netherlands are not allows to do proper health
and safety inspection?

As I write this I realise that it brings a lot of interesting questions and
everything must be very complicated over there!

~~~
hyperman1
As the countries are very friendly and work together in almost anything, this
is not a big problem in practice. Presumably some very small scale hustling is
tolerated as no government official really cares. When there is an actual
problem, the two governments arrange another land swap. There is one every few
years. Nobody cares, it gives both our monarchs something to sign on an
official visit and gets another sheer for international cooperation from the
press.

If you want to have some fun, you can smoke pot while standing on the border
and holding it in your left, Dutch hand. If you're really daring you swap it
over to your right, Belgian hand, and congrats, you're an international drug
smuggler. If a cop sees it and you're unlucky, I suppose he'll ask a few puffs
from you - Yeah I saw that happen in real life, and that was in Brussels a.k.a
Belgium and as far from the boundary as you can get.

~~~
ParanoidShroom
This, once in a while a land swap if needed. Else no one cares. The Dutch are
fun neighbours.

~~~
lb1lf
Land swaps can be a royal PITA; the highest point in Finland is most of the
way up a mountainside; the peak is just across (as in, within a stone throw)
the border, in Norway.

To mark the centennial of Finnish independence, there was a campaign in Norway
to give the Finns a few hundred square metres of Norway, so that they could
get a highest point which was indeed a local maximum.

Too bad the Norwegian constitution says you cannot give away bits of the
country; a land swap was suggested to ensure both countries remained the same
size afterwards, but apparently this, too, would violate the constitution...

~~~
kuroguro
I wonder if they could both agree to wage a fake war for an hour, then sign a
peace treaty detailing the new border.

~~~
lb1lf
A couple of Norwegian conscripts technically invaded Finland earlier this
year; while patrolling the border, they accidentally strayed onto the other
side.

(Not as hard as it may sound; the border isn’t marked as such, only with the
occasional pole here and there.)

~~~
usepgp
invading requires intent to occupy

~~~
lb1lf
I guess it depends on whose definition you use; Norwegian papers at the time
quoted experts (presumably a professor of international law, though I can’t
remember) who claimed that legally speaking, having troops in uniform
venturing into another country counted as an invasion.

Considering all the notes being passed back and forth afterwards, the
conscripts must be kicking themselves for not keeping quiet about it; they
weren’t observed by Finnish border guards; rather, they notified their
officers when returning to base that they’d crossed the border; the army
notified the DoD, which notified the Foreign Department, which notified the
Finns, who said ‘Huh?’

------
ddebernardy
The ugliest of all borders must have been Dahala Khagrabari at the border
between India and Bangladesh. It was the only third order enclave until India
ceded the tiny piece of land to Bangladesh in 2015:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahala_Khagrabari](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahala_Khagrabari)

It was a piece of India within Bangladesh, within India, within Bangladesh -
which itself would be enclaved within India if not for a small border with
Myanmar.

~~~
gpvos
_> ...which itself would be enclaved within India if not for a small border
with Myanmar._

And international waters; the jargon term for that is _semi-enclave_ (if there
hadn't been the border with Myanmar, that is).

------
smnrchrds
How were things before the EU and Schengen area were formed? Has it always
been legal to cross Dutch-Belgian border in this town, or did people get in
trouble for walking into the wrong street?

Lack of border wall does not mean lack of border. There was a big story here
in Canada a couple of months ago about a French woman accidently crossing the
border between Canada and the US and having to spend two weeks in detention.

[https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/jogger-
who-a...](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/jogger-who-
accidentally-crossed-u-s-border-from-b-c-detained-for-2-weeks-1.4717060)

~~~
labster
The fact that we don't have an open border between the U.S. and Canada is a
real shame. Just a waste of everyone's time to indulge the U.S. border
paranoia. I'm not really worried about the US being flooded with poutine and
hockey.

Or even better, a sort of super-Schengen area including the EU, the US,
Canada, and Japan. Yeah, I know I'm dreaming, but it's not like this set of
countries would produce mass migration or security issues that would cause
problems beyond the economic benefit of a free migration.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17382400](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17382400)

~~~
eloisant
I think the reason why US wants a border with Canada is that the immigration
policies of those 2 countries are widely different.

~~~
smnrchrds
And one of the main reasons Canada wants a border with the US is that gun
control policies between our countries are widely different. But EU countries
also have widely different immigration and gun control policies, yet somehow
they managed to form a union. I am sure these are not irreconcilable
differences.

~~~
petre
...and now quarrel among themselves after several waves of refugees want to
become immigrants. So the union tried to distribute the refugees somewhat
evenly, which led to further quarrels.

It's just as if me and my girlfriend and all of our neighbours have to accept
refugees into our apartments, after our senior neighbour, crazy refugee lady,
invited them over. The refugees all want to stay in my girlfriend's room
because it's nicer, but most our neighbours collectively decided that we
should split them between ourselves according to room size. My girlfriend
reluctantly agrees, but I'm quarelling with her and the neighbours over the
refugee issue. This can only lead to one thing: breakup.

------
laurentl
Makes The City and the City
([https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_City_%26_the_City](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_City_%26_the_City))
suddenly more realistic!

~~~
ars
That was a great story - but the ending was a bit of a let down.

Tip to the reader: There absolutely nothing supernatural, or extrahuman, going
on whatsoever.

------
hyperman1
I once heard how the border between the 2 countries close to Maastricht was
established: Maastricht was the first city not conquered by the Belgian
revolutionaries. There were some military units stationed there, and 1 or more
canons. As a result, the border was defined as everything that could
reasonably be reached by shooting these canons from Maastricht.

~~~
roel_v
The cannons are still there, they're down the street from my house.

The general who was then in charge of Maastricht was much despised by the
locals because of his decision then to be loyal to the Dutch king. So when his
remains were ordered to be moved when a new road was build (decades later),
the workers who were supposed to do it didn't, and a lamp post was built on
his grave. They're redoing that area now and the new park that is being built
there, will have an old lamp post in a weird spot as a reminder of this
historical quirk.

(Very OT but I find it such a cool story that I thought I had to share :) )

~~~
hyperman1
I always get the impression that Belgium never really intended to split off
from The Netherlands. Unfortunately, the Dutch king of the time was completely
out of touch with what his new subjects wanted, even while heavily investing
in his new country.

Efforts to finally get the stubborn guy to at least give some token gestures
to a small number of mostly irrelevant demands got so completely out of hand,
that people more or less accidentally started a revolution.

The feelings of the newborn Belgium governement seemed more or less : Oh shit,
we accidentally liberated this country. How did we become the governemnt in
the first place? What are we gonna do? Then asking some French noble to be the
king and getting a 'no' from him wasn't helping much either.

------
tnolet
Slightly off topic maybe, but it always surprises people that the Netherlands
has a border with France. It’s just in the Caribbean on the island of St.
Maarten / Saint Martin. Obligatory YouTube clip “Holland vs. The Netherlands”
[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eE_IUPInEuc](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eE_IUPInEuc)

~~~
crote
Even more complicated: The country of The Netherlands does not border France,
but the Kingdom of The Netherlands does, as St. Maarten is a separate country
within the kingdom.

St. Maarten isn't part of the EU, but St. Martin is. But inhabitants of St.
Maarten are EU citizens, and there is no hard border between the two parts
even though there should be one, as this is a border of the Schengen Area.

This means that I, a citizen of the country of The Netherlands with a identity
card but without a passport, am allowed to travel directly to France via
Belgium, and I can book a flight and enter St. Martin, but I am not allowed to
visit St. Maarten!

~~~
nolok
Your last part interest me, what do citizens of the netherlands have to do to
visit St. Maarten or other parts of the Kingdom of The Netherlands ? Get a
visa ?

In France we differentiate between parts of France proper (mainalnd France,
Corsica, Guiana), our overseas departments (used to be more complicated but
now they're "almost" parts of France), and our overseas collectivity like St.
Martin. But as a French citizen I can visit pretty much any that I want
without the need to ask anyone for permission.

Additionnaly, how is "your" part of the Island governed; fully autonomous or
has the royal family (real/actual) oversight or is the governement of the
Netherland overseeing it or ... ? Our way is mostly "they have their local
governement but if the French one tells them something they do it".

It's interesting to me, especially since New Caledonia being the only
dependance who didn't ask to be integrated but to move away will have to
decide between autonomy or independance

~~~
crote
"Someone" got it right, you need to have a passport. A visa is only required
for stays exceeding 180 days a year. You also need to book a return ticket.

The Netherlands (the country) also has overseas territories, namely Bonaire,
Saba, and St. Eustatius. They are considered regular municipalities, but you
still need to have a passport to visit them. They also have some duration
limitations to prevent migration from the mainland.

About the governance: Long story short, it's complicated. Some laws apply to
the Kingdom so they're for both continental and overseas, but most laws are
made only for country of The Netherlands. The other countries are mostly self-
governing, including making their own laws, but stuff like international
treaties and military is done on the Kingdom level, which in practice means
it's done by the Country. To give an example: after Irma, St. Maarten had to
formally ask The Netherlands for help, otherwise the military would not have
been allowed to give any assistance, as it could be considered an invasion. In
general, any form of intervention is seen as a form of neo-colonialism. We try
to intervene as little as possible.

------
JoachimS
Reminded me of the exclave Point Roberts, Washington. There was a story linked
to here on HN a while back.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_Roberts,_Washington](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_Roberts,_Washington)

[https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/point-
roberts](https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/point-roberts)

It seems to me that Netherlands and Belgium are handling the situation
somewhat more pragmatic.

------
sebazzz
> I also wonder if the story about the restaurant clients needing to change
> table is true tho. In theory, sure, but come on. Do you really expect police
> to come in with a map of the border and enforce the fact that clients should
> not be sitting at table #4 but table #5 is ok? That seems a little
> ridiculous too.

It seems far fetched, as you would expect a restaurant to have one legal
address, and which rules apply depend on the rules of that country.

~~~
close04
As locals in a town of several thousands and ~2Km at the widest part the
police wouldn't really need a map to know every single place. Also the border
is literally drawn on the pavement in most if not all places.

------
glandium
Tom Scott did a video on this border.

[https://youtube.com/watch?v=oE93J33SfHY](https://youtube.com/watch?v=oE93J33SfHY)

------
aequitas
Some nice entertaining education about maps/borders is provided by the "Map
Man" over here:
[https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfxy4_sBQdxy3A2lvl-y3...](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfxy4_sBQdxy3A2lvl-y3qWTeJEbC_QCp)

To bad they stopped making new ones.

~~~
clamprecht
I've been watching this guy's channel, who has lots of content about
interesting borders and such:

[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJVnko6tQ56PYB5BNNChPGg](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJVnko6tQ56PYB5BNNChPGg)

------
cagataygurturk
I know you wonder, yes in Dutch part there are coffeeshops where people can
buy pot.

