
The language the French forbade - MiriamWeiner
http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20180911-occitan-the-language-the-french-forbade
======
idoubtit
Alas, occitan is a dead language. Of course, a few old people still use their
local dialect, but how many parents mainly speak in occitan to their children?
How many people learn it out of school? Who grows speaking occitan with
friends and enriching it with new expressions, like any living language?
Occitan may have 3 millions of speakers in France, the Latin language still
has more.

The occitan language that is learned in school is mostly a toy language. When
Littré wrote his famous dictionary, from 1850 to 1875, he mentioned multiple
dialects of the "langue d'Oc" which were still active in the South of France.
Gascon, limousin, languedocien, catalan and provençal were distinct dialects.
But there are no teachers fluent in any of these dialect, so during the 20th
century they forged the "occitan" language which is a mix of these, but mostly
built from provençal.

Overall, this article is very superficial. It wrote about troubadours, but
forgot to mention a reference well-known in the UK: Richard Lionheart spoke in
French and Provençal, and was probably not fluent in English. Living in
France, in Aquitaine, he composed poetry in "langue d'Oc".

It's well known in France that the French Republic though that the local
cultures were an obstacle to the unity of the nation. So they forbid every
local language. There were panels in some schools with the text: "It is
forbidden to spit and to speak Breton".

~~~
fao_
In South Wales of the UK, we were forbidden from speaking Welsh (I should note
that the southern dialect is different from the northern, and vice-versa). Any
child that spoke Welsh in school would have a thick and heavy board attached
to their neck, to wear in shame (The "Welsh Knot"[1]). It was forbidden across
the board, and gradually died out.

So, we slowly forgot our own language (the other parts of the country that
were not dominated by the English to such a degree, actually look down on us a
little bit, because we do not speak Welsh as our main dialect...).

Recently due to pushes from the government, more and more children are growing
up and learning welsh, and it's now at the point that most jobs in wales are
successfully requiring Welsh-speakers as part of their hiring.

It's completely possible to resurrect a dead language with native language
speakers still in existence, it's faster than killing the language (It took
300 years to completely eradicate Welsh and only about 50 years of government
efforts to resurrect it), it just requires the collective will to be there,
and the wish to restore the culture (or some bastardized idealized version of
it).

[1]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Not](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Not)

~~~
AlunAlun
Nice post, I would add a couple of points re. Welsh. The first is that it was
not really dead 50 years ago. It got as low as 15% of the population in the
50s/60s, and was undoubtedly headed for obscurity and ‘death’, until the
revival, as you mentioned. But it was still alive (q.v. Dafydd Iwan’s [0] most
famous song, “Yma o Hyd”). Now welsh is spoken by around 18% of adults and 25%
of children, and is increasingly seen as an important part of modern Wales.

The other important thing to realize is that Welsh was ‘formalized’ in 1620
when the Bible was translated into it[1]. This had the double effect of
unifying the distinct regional dialects into ‘high Welsh’ (a distinction which
exists to this day!) but also, crucially, providing a standard text which
people could use to learn to read and write. It meant that Welsh was able to
flourish into a full legal language, and not just used as a ‘home’ language.

This gave it a backbone which was not present in other ‘regional’ languages
(such as its nearest relation, Cornish), which in turn have all but died out.

With respect to the original post, I note that the Bible was only translated
into Occitan in the modern era [2], which would support the evidence of it
still being a language only used at home, and not in formal situations.

[0]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dafydd_Iwan](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dafydd_Iwan)

[1]
[https://cy.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beibl](https://cy.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beibl)

[2]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_translations_into_the_...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_translations_into_the_languages_of_France#Occitan_and_Provençal)

------
Bayart
Well, I still speak it somewhat...

The _truth_ is that the transition of Occitan speakers to French is by and
large a process consented by the population (often encouraged by working men,
like my grand-father who associated the "patois" with extremely backwards
conditions) because it simply provided more economic and social opportunities
at a time people started moving massively towards cities. In fact the South-
West provided a lot of teachers during the 19th c. and was a Republican
stronghold. Public institutions, which are not restricted to school (the first
major catalyst being the army with the age of conscription), helped to put
French in an insurmountable position of prestige, but it was more practical
and less cynical than often portrayed.

It's more comfortable to blame an abstract entity like the government than
your ancestors.

~~~
titanix2
That may be true for some languages such as Occitan or Picard but others were
purposefully killed by the republic. Alsatian for instance was forbidden in
schools. If prestige only was at play Alsatians may have mostly became
bilinguals (similar situation exists in Africa, Hong-Kong, India) instead of
unilingual speakers of French.

~~~
idoubtit
In order to unify the country, the French Republic fought against every
language. Alsatian was forbidden in schools, but it was the same for anything
outside French.

Of course, if Alsatian had been allowed or supported, more people would speak
it as bilinguals, but would it be enough to save it? Thousands of languages
are dying, especially those that are spoken in a small geographic area where
another language seems economically more useful.

As an example, Romanche is an official language of Switzerland, yet it is
disappearing at an alarming rate. Even the Basque language, which is rare in
France because of a century of concealment, is not flourishing in Spain.
Basque is a official regional language in Spain, and the population that can
speak it grows slowly, but now the majority of those who live in the Basque
region don't understand its traditional langage. When only 20-30% of the
population can speak correctly a language, how long can it survive?

~~~
AlunAlun
> When only 20-30% of the population can speak correctly a language, how long
> can it survive?

When it has the same legal rights as the dominant language, government funds
to help run media and entertainment, and a strong culture determined to
nurture it, I would argue that it can survive indefinitely. All of which are
the case for Basque, which is in fairly rude health at the moment.

------
eeks
It certainly is not "the French". It's the "French Republic". Local dialects
lived happily in France for over a Millennia under the Monarchy. The French
dialect, mostly spoken in the Jacobin circles in Paris, was imposed by the
revolutionaries as a mean to achieve "equality".

~~~
laurentoget
This is not true. The standardization of the french language started with
Francois I, centuries before the revolution.

~~~
VK538FY
I'd like to know more. In New France, the majority was from northwestern
France (Normands, Poitevins, etc.) but somehow they managed to settle on a
language that is surprisingly similar to Parisian French despite the accent
and informal terms whose northwestern roots are clear (according to the
linguists that I've read). So did the colonists of New France build on the
efforts of François 1er?

~~~
ElBarto
The language divide was mostly north/south with also a few other languages at
the margins (Breton, Basque, Alsacien).

Normands spoke French long before some emigrated to North America. Just ask
the English.

~~~
VK538FY
True, but I think of the French author who visited Québec in the 19th century
long after the conquest and noted that the purity of the language was better
than in much of France at the time. Or something like that, I can't find the
reference right now. Was the author talking of the division north-south or of
a greater diversity than you suggest? Hard to tell.

------
bambax
My grand father only spoke Occitan until he was 7 years old and went to
school. My father can still speak the language fluently, although he lacks
practice.

That said, 1/ Occitan is a lot like Spanish (unlike, say, Breton or Basque
which are very far from Latin (or French)) and 2/ most people were bilingual
speakers of French + regional language at least as early as the middle of the
19th century. It is true that France fought aggressively to suppress local
languages, but almost everyone understood French anyway.

~~~
FeteCommuniste
Occitan is closer to Catalan than to Spanish.

~~~
kgwgk
Both are a lot like Spanish (unlike Breton or Basque).

~~~
nickserv
Breton and Basque are not Romance languages.

Occitan and Catalan are more similar to each other than Catalan to Castillian
or Occitan to French.

~~~
kgwgk
I think we all agree about that.

Edit: bambax said “Occitan is a lot like Spanish (unlike, say, Breton or
Basque [...])”. He could have said “is a lot like Catalan”, or “is a lot like
French”, or “is a lot like Gascon”. All are true to different degrees.

------
laurentoget
This article makes it sound like occitan is mostly used in rural communities
to talk about local cuisine and folk tradition.

There are also people speaking various dialects of occitan in Toulouse,
Bordeaux, Perpignan, Marseille and Nice, mixing it with french and with
languages brought by immigrant communities.

There are rap songs in occitan, or mixing french occitan and arabic:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1kK7iL9brY&list=PL2ztot6xjo...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1kK7iL9brY&list=PL2ztot6xjo-
hRANqkw8knt8ahi59CKLdE&index=22)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJXuUEVH5_M](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJXuUEVH5_M)

~~~
glandium
I grew up near Perpignan, and never knew some people around there would speak
Occitan. A _lot_ speak catalan, though.

~~~
AlunAlun
That’s because it’s possible to argue that Occitan, Catalan, Aranese etc are
all ‘dialects’ of the same language.

I speak Catalan, and I can understand most written Occitan, for example.

“A language is a dialect with an army and navy” (said somebody, once!]

------
ElBarto
There _used_ to be many dialects spoken in France, like in most European
countries.

They really disappeared in earnest at the end of the 19th century when school
was made compulsory, and exclusively in French, with children being punished
for speaking any other language.

~~~
agapon
It's the story of many local languages / dialects in many other countries too.

------
enriquto
Notice that a French Nobel laureate in literature (Frederic Mistral) wrote his
whole work in occitan.

------
amaccuish
I wish this blog had an RSS feed...

------
daniel_olivier
Isn't reading such an article in English abit ironic?

~~~
VK538FY
Are you referring to the bulldozer effect of English against other major
languages?

If so, I'd say that English and Occitan (for example) are not in the same
league, therefore not competitors. For example, no school pupil will choose to
do part of his schooling in Occitan unless he lives in that region and even
then it doesn't really replace a 'real' foreign language -- you need to learn
one of those anyway. (Right?) But in Europe, when one decides between English
and another major European language, the easiest answer is not always the best
answer. And the easy answer demonstrates the bulldozer effect of English.

(I'm not a fan of English BTW. I use it when it's useful to me, like any
other. Others have proven themselves far more useful to me at times. Just not
when I read Hacker News!)

~~~
pjmlp
A couple of European countries offer the option to learn two foreign languages
during school.

So usually the most sought combinations are English and French, German or
Spanish, which already covers our internal travel needs quite well.

Then a couple of Erasmus and the language knowledge can be ramped up to a few
other European languages.

~~~
VK538FY
Not just a couple, but many European countries offer two or more foreign
languages. (The level of success varies wildly of course.)

The configuration is even more complicated in French schools where there is
the optional immersion in the regional language. That immersion generally
begins at the earliest ages. But my point was that this regional language in
no way limits the choice of the first foreign language later on. Therefore: I
don't believe that Occitan is in any way menaced by English, but English may
be chosen over other European languages later in one's scolarity.

As an aside, I don't quite agree with your statement that the foreign
languages offered cover your travel needs. Well, that may be true, but I don't
think that the most important element is mobility for travel, but rather
mobility for employment and trade, _especially_ in border regions. And I can
name a LOT of countries where proficiency in the neighbour's language is
severely lacking. Neighbours that are sometimes just a kilometre away. I've
seen it myself.

~~~
pjmlp
Well it depends how open people are to learn other languages.

More than once I had to speak English in the Flemish area in Belgium, because
the person I was speaking to never bothered to keep their French up to date.

Likewise I happen to speak better French and German than some Swiss German and
Romande friends of mine. It is ironic to watch them speak in English among
themselves, which isn't an official national language.

So mindset matters as well.

~~~
VK538FY
We agree: it depends on the willingness of people to learn. I'm just saying to
myself that it's pretty stupid not to want to learn the language of one's
immediate neighbours, especially when it can eliminate spells of unemployment
or double or triple one's salary.

I had heard of the Belgian example and am all too aware of Romands and
Allemanics speaking English with each other because most don't care to learn
another official language enough to do business in it. A couple of other
examples that I've seen...

\- Basel, CH: the German speaking Baslers are litterally glued to a now
essentially francophone French city. Every one that I've met speaks better
English than French. Of course it's clear that they have little economic
motivation to do so.

\- Wrocław, PL: many of the graduates of that city's fine universities may end
up working in Germany (which is about 100 km away) but almost none of them
come out of high school or university speaking fluent German. The system even
discourages it, maybe because Wrocław (Breslau) was previously in Germany.

