
Storing solar, wind, and water energy underground could replace burning fuel - tdurden
http://www.kurzweilai.net/storing-solar-wind-and-water-energy-underground-could-replace-burning-fuel
======
epistasis
Mark Jacobson has been publishing blueprints along these lines for a while.
For this one, he tied one arm behind his back and omitted battery storage.
Given the state of hydrogen tech, I have a feeling that this plan would be
_even more_ economical if lithium ion batteries and vanadium redox flow
batteries were added.

Once you look at the cost of coal in terms of lost life and health, it makes
no sense not to start transitioning to this immediately. Our economy would be
improved by a tax on coal and/or carbon to internalize the externalities. The
only reason not to is to kowtow to entrenched interests that have been
freeloading off of human health.

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Animats
The link leads to a paywall. When you finally find a paper with details[1] it
turns out to be for Washington State, which has the most hydroelectric power
of any US state. There's another vague summary at [2], which glosses over the
storage issue. The paper referred to seems to be be at [3].

There's a lot of hand-waving about thermal energy storage. Using electricity
to make low-grade heat and storing the heat is insanely inefficient if you
want to get electricity back out. E = (T1-T0) / T0. That's mostly used for
solar hot water storage for nighttime heading.[4]

If this is so great, and he's at Stanford, why is Stanford building their
second natural gas power plant on campus?

[1]
[https://web.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/Articles/I/Wash...](https://web.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/Articles/I/WashStateWWS.pdf)
[2]
[http://web.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/Articles/I/15-11...](http://web.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/Articles/I/15-11-19-HouseEEC-
MZJTestimony.pdf) [3]
[http://web.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/Articles/I/Combi...](http://web.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/Articles/I/CombiningRenew/CONUSGridIntegration.pdf)
[4] [https://www.rehau.com/international-en/building-
solutions/re...](https://www.rehau.com/international-en/building-
solutions/renewable-energy/underground-thermal-energy-storage)

~~~
epistasis
There are plans for all 50 states [1]. The science still exists, despite being
behind a paywall. You'll find much more description of this paper on Ars
Technica [2], but I think that the paper has addressed your concerns. Also,
Stanford building a natural gas plant has nothing to do with research which is
a blueprint for action over the next 40 years, so it's a distraction from your
main points.

[1]
[http://web.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/Articles/I/WWS-5...](http://web.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/Articles/I/WWS-50-USState-
plans.html)

[2]
[http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/11/managing-a-100-percen...](http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/11/managing-a-100-percent-
renewable-grid-without-batteries/)

------
thebmax
'Storing solar power underground' \- what if it's in a pressurized and
compressed form that's easily transported and has a high mass to energy ratio?
Brilliant!

~~~
epistasis
I think you're describing methane, the primary component of natural gas.
Methane production from electricity is ~60% efficient, according to a 6.3MW
plant that Audi and SolarFuel cobuilt in Germany. And then converting methane
into electricity or movement will only be ~50% efficient, for total roundtrip
efficiency of 30%. That may make sense for electrical storage if the price
swings from low to high are 3x or more.

~~~
XaspR8d
Well I think thebmax is joking about how _all_ fossil fuels are effectively
dense, underground storage of solar energy. ;)

(But your information on methane is interesting. I somehow didn't realize it
was the biggest component in natural gas; I guess I had assumed it was a more
complex hydrocarbon and not considered it further.)

~~~
thebmax
That was what I was getting at ;). I had an old boss who used to call
hydrocarbons 'Mother Nature's Battery'. Its almost a miracle when you think of
it. Millions of years of solar energy stored in solid, liquid, and gas forms,
available for the ingenuity of man to extract and use to power the marvels of
the modern world.

For all the hate that hydrocarbons get they are probably the main reason most
of us aren't still living a very primitive existence.

------
vlehto
"5 million 40-year jobs" = ~320 billion work hours = ~30 trillion dollars.

My point is not the amount of money. It's the crooked rhetoric in use.

