
Fermentation and Daily Life - colinprince
https://www.notechmagazine.com/2018/07/fermentation-and-daily-life.html
======
SirensOfTitan
I got seriously into fermentation several months ago. I really enjoy Bon
Appetit's "It's Alive with Brad" series, which prompted me to read some of
Sandor Katz's books. I'm doing two ferments usually at a time, cycling
between: sauerkraut, full-sour dill pickles, Russian pickled tomatoes (my
favorite recipe so far has been this Indian-style 'kraut:
[https://myheartbeets.com/indian-sauerkraut/](https://myheartbeets.com/indian-
sauerkraut/)). I also started maintaining a sourdough starter. I want to try
hot sauce and mead next.

There is _very_ little chance of getting sick or infecting oneself with
Botulism with active vegetable ferments (i.e. not sanitizing then canning).
Vegetables are covered in natural bacteria, and the conditions created inside
the ferment make it essentially impossible for Botulism to thrive. Canning can
be dangerous because the process of heating (i.e. killing off microbe
activity) of a ferment leaves _only_ Botulism because it has spores that
protect it from heat. Some meat ferments require more care, and I've heard of
some issues with say: fermenting garlic inside of olive oil. Overall, though,
fermentation is one of the _safest_ food preparation techniques we know of.

~~~
victor106
When I was in India I had this thing called “idli”. It tastes amazing dipped
in a soup called “sambar”. And dipped in a few pickles which they call
“chutney”. Upon inqurring I came to know th at It’s made from mixing fermented
rice and fermented dals. Not just the taste but it also feels light on the
stomach and it feels ( I am not sure if it actually is) healthy. They also
have something called the “dosa” that is like a crepe made from fermenting
rice and dals. I strongly suggest trying it. Not all places in the US serve
good idli and dosa though. I tried making it in my apartment but the
fermentation failed a few times so I gave up.

~~~
vram22
Nice to know you liked idli and dosa. I do too, and so do plenty of Indians.
They are staples of the diet in south India, and at least dosa/dosai
(particularly masala dosa) has spread in popularity to many parts of the
world.

A few minor points: the chutney is not a pickle in the sense of not being a
fermented item, it's made and eaten fresh, just some ingredients ground up
together, maybe fried lightly or not.

>mixing fermented rice and fermented dals

Close, but not quite. The rice and (urad/udid) dal (black gram - not black
chickpea, a different species), are wet-ground together and then left to
ferment overnight or so. Then the same flour/batter is used to make either
idli or dosa. I don't have scientific evidence but idli is likely healthy, so
is dosa, due to the fermentation, and idli is nice and light, as you noticed.

>I tried making it in my apartment but the fermentation failed a few times so
I gave up.

Try asking an Indian or South Asian friend or acquaintance for advice, or ask
on the IndianFood reddit.

Edit: Added Wikipedia links.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idli](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idli)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dosa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dosa)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masala_dosa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masala_dosa)

~~~
vram22
P.S. A fantastic variant (IMO) of masala dosa is Mysore masala dosa - at
least, that is what it was called, in a small nearby restaurant where I used
to have it regularly, when in college in Chennai. The variation is that the
filling for the dosa is a dry (actually just a little wet, with the spice
mixture), boiled and spiced cowpea (lobia) curry, instead of the potato curry
(which is what is called the "masala" in the original). Damn tasty. I used to
regularly polish off two of them for lunch in my college days. (Lobia is
heavier than potato, and they used to put in a generous amount, so it was a
pretty good and heavy enough meal.)

------
bambax
Excellent article! The first 3 § are a little off-putting but then it gets
great.

This amused me: _" She grew up in a family where, when concerned if the milk
was OK, they wouldn’t look at the expiry date but instead sniff it."_

Everyone in our family always did this and so do I; I never realized people
did otherwise. If it smells good (or doesn't smell at all), eat it. If it
smells kind of bad, wash it. If it still smells bad after washing, then throw
away.

~~~
tonyarkles
Yeah, it definitely surprised me in my 20s when I'd have a new
roommate/girlfriend who would go through the fridge and throw out anything
with an overdue best before date.

> "Best Before" doesn't mean "Bad After"!

At our house now, when we look through the fridge and see something
approaching/past its Best Before date, we brainstorm something we can make to
use it up before it spoils. Pudding is a great way to use up any quantity of
milk. Random Vegetable Soup: throw all of the questionable vegetables in to
the Instant Pot with some chicken stock, pressure cook for 10 minutes, blend
with a stick mixer. If cheese grows a bit of mold, we just cut it off and put
it in a new container. Meat gets kept in a fridge that is just a hair too
cold, and either gets used right away or frozen.

Writing all of this, I just realized that we produce very little food waste
here. Occasionally some leftovers are forgotten in the back of the fridge and
get moldy, but that's pretty rare.

~~~
bitexploder
Cheese though. Obviously it probably won’t make you sick, but when you see
mold on the surface it has permeated the cheese. Recommend throwing it out.
All the other stuff you mentioned is fine.

~~~
mrob
The USDA claims that in the case of hard cheese, it is sufficient to trim 1
inch from the mold:

[https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/wcm/connect/a87cdc2c-6ddd-49f0...](https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/wcm/connect/a87cdc2c-6ddd-49f0-bd1f-393086742e68/Molds_on_Food.pdf?MOD=AJPERES)

~~~
mikekchar
As far as I understand there are no pathogenic moulds that will grow on hard
cheese (it is too acidic). Just to be clear, this is _not_ the case for soft
cheeses (camembert, brie, some blue cheeses, really soft washed rind cheeses,
etc), though. If that starts to go off, throw it out. The pH can get up all
the way to 7 on those cheeses, so they aren't safe.

------
xkapastel
This article was frustrating because it danced around my main issue: I'd be
worried about getting sick. There was maybe one sentence that acknowledged
this:

> I think the fear of contamination and making one’s self sick is the biggest
> barrier.

This is a _big_ deal, but the article makes light of it, doesn't even give it
its own section, and instead presents a bunch of flowery prose about making
death a part of life.

As one example of this, how are you supposed to protect these fermented foods
from pests? I get the sense you're supposed to leave them out, uncovered, but
that assumes you live in an area that allows you to do that.

~~~
MegaDeKay
I think by "leave them out", you meant to say "leave them outdoors". That is
not the case. FTA:

"Lewin learned to keep his projects out in the open: ‘One thing I do is I
leave all of my fermentation projects in plain sight. I see them every time I
go in the kitchen."

So the article is saying they keep their ferments indoors, which is what other
posters say they do. I think you might be worried that the ferments are left
out of the fridge? Well, they mostly have to be because fermentation almost
shuts down at temperatures that cool.

Fermentation is exceptionally safe. The lactic acid created in the
fermentation process plus the salt makes for a badass combination against bad
bugs. Sandor Katz wrote in the Art of Fermentation that if it tastes bad,
throw it out. Even if a bit of mold grows on top, you can pick it off and let
the fermentation continue (only if the mold grows for too long and it gets
really rooted into the ferment should you throw it out, and that is just
because it would taste terrible). If you are worried about botulism (a nasty
toxin that has no taste), you shouldn't be:

[https://www.masontops.com/pages/botulism-and-fermenting-
shou...](https://www.masontops.com/pages/botulism-and-fermenting-should-i-
worry)

I'm far more worried about getting sick from e. coli in romaine lettuce bought
fresh from the grocery store than from any of the ferments I make.

~~~
enamour
re the part about removing mold: does that only hold for fermentation?

I somewhat recall having seen an interview of a doctor talking about mold (in
e.g. jams) and stating that you should be generous with the part removed
because mold has roots that go far deeper that what you actually see.
Furthermore, he mentioned it (or byproducts, I don't recall) being
carcinogenic, i.e. definitely not just bad taste.

------
m0zg
There's another kind of fermentation: beer. I learned to make my own beer last
summer. The first few batches were barely drinkable, but I'm glad I didn't
stop there. I'm getting pretty good by now. The process is rather simple once
you get a hang of it, but it does require patience: 6 weeks for most ales,
longer for lagers (which I don't brew because they're harder to get right, and
IMO not as tasty). It's also incredibly therapeutic, for me at least,
especially if you drink a couple of cold ones from an older batch on the brew
day. Relatively cheap and satisfying hobby. All you need is a large stock pot
(4 gallons), 2 3-gallon glass carboys, 5 gallon cooler from Home Depot,
gravity pump, some nylon bags (large for grain, small for boiling hops), and
coiled copper tubing chiller. Sub-$250 all in all. With this primitive gear
you can make ~2.5 gallons of beer every 2 weeks once you establish the
pipeline (which takes 6 weeks).

------
ajmurmann
I've been experimenting with fermentation on and off over the years. Every
time something goes wrong I get so put off that I stop fermenting anything for
a year or so. I think the article does a great job at explaining how
fermentation really clashes with our culture. Outside of the fermentation
context or community you will hear guidelines like having to throw out food
that was left out for longer than two hours. It's very hard to consolidate
these two. Food safety guidelines in a way are infantilizing us by being
overly simplistic and not giving us ways and learning experience that allow us
to determine if something is truly not edible. If we get trained to throw out
food that's not actually bad, of course disease agents in food become this
invisible force that might kill us when eating anything after the expiry date.
Let alone something that was on the counter for the week and now has bubbles
that somehow look unexpected.

On top of that most of us will have had food poisoning from restaurant food
where you didn't actually get to see the potentially spoiled ingredients
before it was used in a dish. So an experience where you got sick from food
that seemed totally fine to you. You might have actually refused to eat it if
you had seen or smelled the raw ingredients that ended up making you sick, but
we aren't getting those experiences anymore.

------
anonu
The article makes it sound like fermentation is some far off concept and
modern life has made it difficult to ferment things.

Fermentation is all around us. If you eat bread or drink beer, you can thank
fermentation.

Also the author references the "ethics" of fermentation. Give me a break...

~~~
MegaDeKay
I don't think the article says it is difficult. I think it more laments the
fact that it is a bit of a lost art and that some people are afraid of its
safety (as comments to this article can confirm). If more people took the time
to give it a shot, more people would get hooked on it and do more of it. I
swear that sauerkraut is like a gateway drug.

The ethics stuff in the article comes off a bit strong to me though. My
ferments are a bit like a pet. Heck, many people name their sourdough
cultures!

~~~
anonu
From the article: "Modern life makes fermentation unintuitive and difficult."

I bake bread and brew beer at home. If you search Youtube for these topics
there is no lack of DIY videos... Youtube never ceases to amaze me because you
can deep dive into almost any topic - even something as mundane as baking
bread.

------
ddaa10
Love this article.

I have been doing home sourdough for years. A couple of years ago my partner
got kefir grains from a relative, and she's been using it weekly. A few months
ago we got a kombucha mother when giving away a rescued kitten, and the second
batch (kombucha, not kitten) is in progress. She also started fermenting
vegetables (carrots, cabbage, so far), that's great for spicing up salads.
Hint: do not throw away mature leaven, keep it in a jar in the fridge, it
makes awesome waffles.

Really, every household should be doing fermentations. It's easy, tasty,
rewarding, safe and very good for your gut microbiome.

~~~
MegaDeKay
"Hint: do not throw away mature leaven, keep it in a jar in the fridge, it
makes awesome waffles." So much this!!! This recipe is my goto and my lunch
for today (might as well just shred my other waffle recipes). Which is your
tried and true?

[https://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2011/01/bread-baking-
sou...](https://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2011/01/bread-baking-sourdough-
waffles-recipe.html)

Try a kraut of 2/3 cabbage and 1/3 onion with 2% salt by weight and some
caraway seeds tossed in (that onion can also be 2/3 white and 1/3 red). I like
this a lot better than no onion kraut. Would also highly recommend you look
into making your own kimchi. The stuff is freaking delicious and can go on
most anything. Baked potato? Check. On Tamago Kake Gohan? Check. Panini?
Check. Nachos? Check.

I'm not 100% convinced that ferments are good for the gut microbiome. There is
some thought that a lot of the beneficial stuff gets killed off in the stomach
and the rest gets simply overwhelmed by the existing gut flora you've already
got. But it probably can't hurt (except maybe for the salt that comes along
for the ride if you have salt sensitve hypertension - fermenters don't talk
about this much). Whatever. I am 100% convinced that fermentation =
deliciousness and that is what is most important to me.

~~~
ddaa10
Here's the recipe I use:

[https://www.byacb4you.com/gaufres-au-
levain.html](https://www.byacb4you.com/gaufres-au-levain.html)

Yeah, it's in French.

Thanks for the kraut advice!

------
test001only
Having come from tropical country and currently living in a country towards
north, I find it extremely difficult to get anything fermented because of how
it is cold during significant part of the year.

~~~
pthreads
If you like to make yogurt at home then I highly recommend getting yourself a
multifunction electric pressure cooker. You probably can get dedicated yogurt
makers but I prefer the pressure cooker even though yogurt is made at normal
pressure and low temperature since it is great for cooking many other things.

Homemade yogurt tastes so much better to me than store-bought!

~~~
tonyarkles
I made a batch as an experiment the morning after I got my Instant Pot Max,
and, yeah, that's some mighty fine yogurt. Mine ended up a little bit runny
but still tasted amazing! More experimentation needed, but it's a very
promising start.

~~~
vram22
See my comment here -
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19012171](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19012171)
\- and maybe try the low-tech Indian way next time. Proven for centuries,
doesn't need fancy gadgets :) Only thing you may need to tweak is the sitting
temperature. Either insulate the dish with cloth if ambient temperature is too
cold, or put it in a larger vessel of cold water, if too warm.

~~~
tonyarkles
> some place in your house which is at the right temperature for fermentation
> to not only happen but be facilitated

Welcome to Saskatchewan, Canada, where there aren't any places in the house
that are at the right temperature in the winter :). That's roughly what the
Instant Pot does though. You bring it to a boil first, let it cool off, and
then it'll keep the pot at the right temperature while it ferments. Nothing
special, other than a nice place that's kept around 43degC in a house that's
usually around 17degC overnight.

~~~
vram22
>Welcome to Saskatchewan, Canada, where there aren't any places in the house
that are at the right temperature in the winter :).

Ha ha, good one. I stand corrected, probably, if I didn't mention earlier,
that the yogurt-making procedure I gave, was specific to the warmer temps of
most regions of India. And even some of those regions get pretty cold in
winter (at least by sub-tropical country standards).

>a nice place that's kept around 43degC in a house that's usually around
17degC overnight.

Like where I am now, min temp has been 7 C or even 6 C at night lately, and in
some places I've been (which are not even in northern India, which is colder),
the min has been known to drop to 2 C at times, though rarely. Goes to zero or
below, in some places, sometimes, of course.

(I do know that places in the world further north (or south) can get a lot
colder, like -40 C (= 40 F) or more.)

------
kyleperik
Recently I've been trying out fermentation with sourdough, ginger beer, kefir
and anything else I can find to try out. It has many upsides, preservation,
it's healthy and it's fun. In my opinion this article goes a bit too far, it's
not a religion. It's just a diet that more people should know about and
practice these days.

------
rmm
Love fermenting. So good for you too.

Easiest sauerkraut. Get cabbage. Shred it. Add some salt and chuck it in a
jar. Then wait.

I love kefir too. Just milk and some kefir grains replaced daily.

Can get addictive quick though. Before you know it you have jars of pickles,
tomatoes, kimchi everywhere

~~~
imglorp
> Easiest sauerkraut. Get cabbage. Shred it. Add some salt and chuck it in a
> jar. Then wait.

And if you add a bunch of chili powder, it's kimchi.

~~~
MegaDeKay
No. Then it is sauerkraut with chili powder on top. But I will admit that
saying there is only one kind of kimchi is like saying there is only one kind
of car.

source: my homemade kimchi sitting in my fridge right now has napa cabbage,
daikon radish, green onion, ginger, garlic, gochugaru, carrot, sweet rice
flour, fish sauce, asian pear, and some other stuff I'm forgetting right now.

------
known
Fermented foods should be avoided if you have gastric ulcers

