
The Lost Art of Steam Heating (2017) [video] - userbinator
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQB0KK2rxcw
======
earthscienceman
It's so interesting to see this on Hacker News. Through the bizarre strange
fortune of life I'm the owner of a mediocre building built in the late 1800s
located in an old mining boom town. It has a very robust steam heating system
in place but the town is absolutely in the middle-of-nowhere. The cost of
getting someone to just look at the pipes is about $200, not to mention any
work. Paid three different people to look at it and nobody knew up from down,
got 3 radically different opinions on what should be done.

After a ridiculous amount of searching and reading, I've come to find that
basically nobody knows what they're talking about on the subject. The advice
online and in person essentially amounts to witchcraft. I noticed people using
the same adjectives/verbs to describe steam-heating that sellers of essential
oils use. Finding Dan Holohan's website was like finding a miracle. Steam
heating is so simple and efficient but it was done in an era when
documentation and standardization was more nonexistent than today. If you sit
down and draw diagrams and think about the system you have in your house it
becomes so simple... but without that hour of logic and shaping of the problem
you get no where fast. It was such a good 'back to the basics' experience for
me that I wouldn't trade for my doctorate degree.

~~~
wlesieutre
It's weird for me to think of this as a forgotten technology having gone to
Penn State where all of campus was heated by a district steam system.

Between east and west campus, they have a capacity of 700,000 lbs of steam per
hour.

[https://opp.psu.edu/unit/steam-services](https://opp.psu.edu/unit/steam-
services)

[https://news.psu.edu/story/460837/2017/04/17/campus-
life/one...](https://news.psu.edu/story/460837/2017/04/17/campus-life/one-
year-later-reflecting-penn-state%E2%80%99s-switch-coal-natural-gas)

~~~
romed
Many universities and other institutions like hospitals are steam heated
because they have the steam anyway from their own combined-cycle power plants.
I guess this is a legacy of universities having power before widespread
electrification? In any case it’s very efficient. Steam can provide not just
heating but also cooling and refrigeration. If you already have the technical
staff to run your own power station then maintaining steam distribution should
cause you any additional headaches.

~~~
Kadin
Up until the advent of inexpensive heat pumps, using electricity for space
heating wasn't very practical. There were some electrically-heated (using
resistance-coils baseboards) in the 50s and 60s, I guess when they thought
electricity would be "too cheap to meter" soon enough, but it requires
electrical distribution infrastructure well above what you'd otherwise need
for housekeeping loads.

The big reason for centralized steam rather than small boilers in each
building was fuel. Penn State (and many other colleges / institutions in the
northeast) was originally heated with coal. There was a rail spur that ran to
the campus power plant for delivering it. Delivering coal to each building
would have been a lot of effort, and negates the efficiency of a large boiler
compared to small ones. So you create the steam in one place and then
distribute the steam. (Also there used to be fairly strict rules on having a
licensed "operating engineer" at each boiler when it was operating.)

With natural gas now being the dominant fuel, it's almost certainly more
efficient to distribute the gas and then generate the steam (or hot water,
much more common today) near the point of use, with a high-efficiency
boiler/heater.

~~~
jcrawfordor
My employer has a campus similar in size to a midsize university, which
formerly used district steam heating from a central boiler plant. About a
decade ago it was decided that moving to a modern distributed system with a
natural gas boiler in each building would net better energy and cost
efficiency, and while the transition took several years and was fairly
disruptive in terms of the construction in each building, it's ended up
delivering as promised.

I just don't think central heating has the advantages today it used to, unless
you're in the unusual situation that you have a "free" source of steam (e.g.
from process equipment). The boilers used now are compact, low maintenance,
and have impressive remote management features. The "steam plant" staff here
went from a dozen operating a building to a computer workstation at the
facilities operations desk for remote monitoring and a few roving maintenance
technicians.

We are also currently transitioning from a central standby power plant to
generators located at each building. This is being done for almost the exact
same reasons - the generators today are small, low cost, perform testing and
exercise automatically, and are remotely monitored.

------
nkurz
A couple of comments here mention how great steam heat feels, apart how noisy
it is. This is ironic, as one of Holohan's main points is that when operating
properly, steam heat is silent. The problem is that most people have never
experienced a properly operating steam heat system. Here's some quotes from
the intro to his Greening Steam (which is a great book, which you should
definitely read if you have a steam heat system):

 _Steam Heat Should Be Silent_

 _Water hammer, that banging and knocking that is so prevalent in steam
heating, is not normal. Don 't let anyone tell you that it is._

 _Water hammer is also destructive. It can break pipes from fittings and cause
injury. It 's not normal. It has definite causes, and you can make it go
away._

 _Hissing air vents aren 't normal. In a well-balanced steam system, you
should never hear air venting. When a vent makes noise, it's trying to tell
you that it's handling too much air._

Holohan's main conceit is that there are very few plumbers who understand
steam heat, and as a result, there are very few systems that work as designed
by the "Dead Men". The idea that steam heat is inherently noisy is one of the
main myths that he wants to dispel.

Tying this back to HN, there's probably some useful parallel here to systems
architecture and maintenance programming. How many systems will keep working
as well as they were designed after several generations of "repairs" have been
performed on them? How can one design systems to make it more likely that they
will continue to work as designed?

~~~
romed
The problem as usual is with the users not the system. If anyone in your
building turns the valve on their radiator off (because their space is
overheated) then the water will condense and when they open it again the
entire system will hammer, forever, until the building engineer drains it. As
for the air vents it seems that building supervisors just can’t resist
painting them, which renders them inoperable. They should know better.

So in summary steam is wonderful as long as humans don’t get involved.

~~~
jayd16
>The problem as usual is with the users not the system.

Never the right attitude. If users have constant issues with a system, its a
system flaw. You can't upgrade the users.

~~~
TeMPOraL
> _You can 't upgrade the users._

You absolutely can. You just have to state and keep stating that the system is
for adults who can be bothered to read half a page of instructions once in
their life, instead of fostering a culture of ignorance.

We have a similar problem with software UX, too.

~~~
PhasmaFelis
People are not going to read and remember detailed instructions for every one
of the hundreds of devices in their daily lives. If that means they're stupid,
then you have to design for stupids. It sucks, but that's how it goes.

You're quite right that this is an ongoing problem in software UX. The problem
is devs who insist that the user should accommodate the software rather than
the other way around.

~~~
PavlovsCat
> If that means they're stupid, then you have to design for stupids.

No, because it means they're _being_ stupid, not that they are "stupids", like
it's a zodiac sign. So they should stop being stupid.

> The problem is devs who insist that the user should accommodate the software
> rather than the other way around.

Writing good documentation is accomodating users, and there is a lot of stuff
that is very simple but still can't keep to a common way of how things work
(because it's all mostly fluff functionally anyway, and needs to
"differentiate itself" in some gimmicky way), and none of it has decent
documentation -- so people are left to ask each other in random forums or
elsewhere how anything works. IMO that's being lazy, and not paying users for
work the developers should have done.

If it was designed "for stupids", it would have very clear instructions in big
letters which still would hold true after 20 years, because "stupids" don't
always have the latest thing.

[https://www.gpsoft.com.au/help/opus12/index.html](https://www.gpsoft.com.au/help/opus12/index.html)

Nobody _remembers_ that, or reads all of it just for fun. But it's all there
if you need, thorough and up-to-date. Old Opera was also like that, and none
of my non-techie friends or relatives ever had problems with it. I'm sure many
other programs still are, as in they _do_ follow allll the best practices an
application "designed for dummies" would, but then they also have a good
documentation, and maybe a CLI interface and other things a programmer might
want so called power-users (as opposed to powerless consumers?) to have.
Current users are getting ripped off by being trained and conditioned by
marketing departments, not peers and teachers with good intent.

~~~
TeMPOraL
> _power-users (as opposed to powerless consumers?)_

I like to think of it in terms of frequency/duration of use. There may not be
many (relatively) "power users", but there are a lot of 9-5 users. People who
have to work with a piece software 8+ hours a day at work, day in, day out. If
a piece of software has near-flat learning curve, it's contributing _a lot_ to
the misery of those people. Like, 6 hours straight of clicking through a slow
web UI kind of misery, where unbloating the UI would cut that literally in
half, adding keyboard shortcuts would cut that in half again, and a semi-
decent batch mode would let them be done in 15 minutes, go get coffee, and
start working on something else.

Where's the "value" such "user-friendly" software provides the users again?

And here also lies the answer to the age-old question - why people use
_Microsoft Excel_ for everything? Because it's a tool for "power users", with
no ceiling in sight. It's flexible where most dedicated software is stiff,
which gives people a way to optimize their work.

~~~
PavlovsCat
I also think saying "we don't bother with documentation or configuration
because nobody reads or uses that" is kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

> Treat people as if they were what they ought to be and you help them to
> become what they are capable of being.

\-- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

That always risks being patronizing, but at least we should _allow_ users
options and deeper documentation, for those who want to use them -- they
shouldn't get punished by being restricted to the lowest common denominator.
That doesn't mean there can't be friendly defaults, "wizards", and whatnot.

~~~
TeMPOraL
> _I also think saying "we don't bother with documentation or configuration
> because nobody reads or uses that" is kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy._

Oh yes, and it's so deeply ingrained in the culture.

At my previous job, our customer made us use a pretty crappy, proprietary
integrated system for task management, bug tracking and version control.
Everyone hated it with passion. It took me over a year to finally stop and
think for a moment - that maybe it has some more efficient modes of working,
and maybe there is some logic to its organization? I clicked Help -> Manual
and, lo and behold, I was looking at a large compiled help file describing
_everything_. Every functionality, the fundamental concepts behind the
software's UI and data representation. Hell, it even mentioned the API. 30
minutes later, I still didn't like the software, but I was finally somewhat
comfortable with it.

I was probably the first person to do that in that company. A lesson here is
that unfortunately, the instinct to bitch about software instead of trying to
find a manual is strong even in power users. I took that lesson to heart, and
these days I'm e.g. very friendly with Info pages in my OS. Turns out if
software you regularly use has a decent manual, reading it (or at least
skimming, and I mean _cover to cover_ ) has absurdly high payoff.

> _they shouldn 't get punished by being restricted to the lowest common
> denominator. That doesn't mean there can't be friendly defaults, "wizards",
> and whatnot._

Exactly. Lower the start of the learning curve, but don't flatten it entirely,
don't dumb down your application for the sake of "easy to use". Power always
comes with some amount of complexity and learning.

------
jadams5
I live in a 90 year old house that still uses the original steam heated
radiators. It's actually been a lot of fun learning about the old technology
with its pros and cons.

As an example, I always assumed that the radiators were always just full of
steam while running, but the systems actually work by cycling between steam
production and condensation phases. There's an alcohol filled bladder at the
base of every radiator that boils and expands when the steam fills the
radiator, sealing off the flow at that point, forcing the steam to route
around to the next radiator. Once all the radiators seal off the pressure in
the system rises, triggering the boiler to shut down. The water condenses
inside the radiators as they emit their heat and cool, the bladders open, the
water drains back down to the boiler, and if the home temp is still low the
cycle starts again. Who knew?

For now we're actually planning on keeping it around while it's all in good
working order.

~~~
nkurz
Interesting. I think the system you are describing is a variation of a "two
pipe steam" system that is not very common these days. More common systems
have have an air vent, and do run on a continuous cycle.

Holohan describes the differences here: [https://heatinghelp.com/systems-help-
center/a-steam-heating-...](https://heatinghelp.com/systems-help-
center/a-steam-heating-primer/)

He also points out that the failure point of the system you have is that the
"steam traps" tend to fail frequently and silently. The system still heats,
but runs less efficiently. He says the traps typically have only a 3 year
lifespan.

~~~
jadams5
Yep, it's a two pipe system. One of the first things I did was verify that the
traps were all functioning. Amazingly enough, they were!

The house was built in the 20's by a commercial plumber who put in some more
commercial-style amenities including some state of the art for the era
tankless flush-valve toilets. I love them, wife hates them.

~~~
soperj
>tankless flush-valve toilets

Quickly tried to find a picture of this, but don't know what exactly i'm
looking for. Can you post a link?

~~~
jadams5
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flushometer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flushometer)

edit: It's just like what you'd find in any modern commercial building in the
US, just with a much older form factor of toilet. When we moved in I got
curious why most new homes don't have them. Found out that they don't use any
more water than a normal toilet, but they do require a higher water flow rate.
The high flow rate requires at least a 2" water main into the house (which we
have), while most modern residential construction uses a 1" or less.

------
jhallenworld
Get the book, it's awesome:

[https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Art-Steam-
Heating/dp/0996477241/...](https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Art-Steam-
Heating/dp/0996477241/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1542127393&sr=8-1&keywords=lost+art+of+steam+heating)

I had oil fired steam heat (live around Boston). Back when heating oil hit $5
/ gallon, I got rid of it. It was costing me $3800 / year, but the efficient
gas furnace that replaced it costs $700 / year. I'm sure this will only last
as long as the fracking boom, but it definitely already paid for the
installation.

So now my most expensive utility is water ($1700 / year).

------
seidleroni
I read his book by the same name last year when I moved into a house with
steam heating. The book goes into great detail and helped me resolve some
banging pipes which kept waking me up in the middle of the night. This was
after I had 2 heating "experts" come try and help. As Dan says, steam works
great but only dead men know how to do it properly.

------
larrywright
In my younger years, I lived in an apartment in an older house (early 1900s).
The house had steam heat (and no air, which was kind of awful). Steam heat is
a bit noisier and I’m guessing the systems are finicky, but the heat they
produce is incredibly comfortable. I live in the Midwest, so temperatures can
get quite cold. I felt warmer in that apartment than in any other place I’ve
lived, and it’s not a drying heat the way that forced air is.

The house was a bit of a dump, and the quality of the heat didn’t really make
up for the lack of air conditioning, but I still have fond memories of that
steam heat 20+ years later.

~~~
bunderbunder
I currently live in my first ever apartment that's heated by a furnace. We've
seriously discussed moving again just to go back to having steam heat. The dry
air from the forced air system makes the winter _that_ much less pleasant.

The previous place had a fairly modern boiler, no more than a decade or two
old. Being a tenant, I have the luxury of getting to largely ignore these
things, but, from what I could tell, it required less maintenance than the
current place's furnace.

~~~
astura
What maintenance does a forced air furnace need? Other than air filter
changes?

I've only had steam heat.

I have a modern boiler and the only maintenance I have to do (so far) is pay a
professional to do the yearly servicing.

~~~
jackhack
former HVAC tech here. Sorry for the wall of text but here's most of what I
would do as a seasonal change-over inspection:

Every year, a full visual inspection of the heat exchanger, especially
important after 5 years of life. We're looking for the first signs of
perforation, and/or cracks. A "smoke test" isn't sufficient.

Visual inspection of ductwork take-offs on plenum - leaks, seals, etc. Same
for system cabinet.

Check the safety switches -- roll out/limit sensor (millivolt), draft
induction (exhaust blower) pressure switch, cabinet switches, etc.

Clean the flame sensor.

Visual inspection on the ignitor. Cracks = replace. Check values on start
capacitor for blower motor. Replace if > +/\- 15% of spec.

Blow out P-trap on condensor drain (only applies to condensing furnaces, of
course -- the >85% efficiency models, but that's most of what is installed
these days). Oil blower motor and draft induction fan bearings. Observe flame
color.

After 10 years, or as needed, check exhaust with combustion analyzer for
proper C0/C02 range.

Observe 2 startup/cool down cycles for proper operation. Look for proper
ignition, flame color/depth/shape, listen for odd sounds that would indicate
issues (vibration, flexing, etc.)

Replace the filter unless it's obviously new. (btw, This filter is there to
protect the unit from dust/lint, not there to clean the air in the house.)

 __Replace CO detector battery __Not just "ask homeowner to do it" but do it
myself. Replace detector out of date (they only last 10 years or so). This is
mandatory if you are operating a fuel burning appliance. And Remind homeowner
to change smoke detector batteries.

Present a written report of all findings. Compare to last year's report --
look or trends. Keep copy of new on on record at the shop.

This takes about an hour. If your "HVAC Guy" just shimmies into your
crawlspace or attic for 15 minutes before climbing back out and saying
"everything looks great, see ya in the spring" you're risking your safety and
being cheated. Most don't do the whole job. Also, what most shops call a "tune
up" isn't anything of the sort; at best it's a cursory visual inspection with
gauges on the A/C unit and a check of the start/run capacitors. Most don't
even bother to oil bearings.

Every shop is different. There is a wide spectrum of hacks and pros.

~~~
astura
Thanks for the info. :)

So a forced air furnace is basically the same as a boiler where you just call
a technician to do your "yearly servicing?"

The company that services my boiler spend well over an hour on it, so I'll
assume I'm not getting ripped off there?

------
JackFr
"If you see something that's old and it's been there for a long time and it's
working, don't laugh at it."

------
dugditches
Here's an article on this talk:
[https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/01/04/steamed-the-
jo...](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/01/04/steamed-the-joy-of-steam-
heat)

This type of heating is still used in 'intrinsically safe' environments(where
no natural gas/electric heaters can operate safely). Lots of banging and
knocking pipes.

------
DanHolohan
Thanks for the kind words and for your interest in steam heating. There's a
delicious amount of history wrapped up in this stuff.

I gave that talk at The General Society of Mechanics and Tradesmen of the city
of New York, not at The Arsenal. I did talk about the Arsenal, though. That's
a wonderful place. GSMT is at 20 W. 44th Street in Manhattan. It's a
landmarked building, across the street from the Harvard Club. Visiting there
is like watching Night at the Museum. I'm currently V.P of the Society.

I founded HeatingHelp.com in 1997. I retired in 2016 and our daughter, Erin
Holohan Haskell, now owns the site. It's a terrific resource for heating
system, both old and new.

Dan

------
subpixel
A section of downtown Cleveland is still heated using a closed-loop steam-
powered district system.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_heating](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_heating)

[https://www.flickr.com/photos/timevanson/28933250436](https://www.flickr.com/photos/timevanson/28933250436)

~~~
pentagonpapers
Downtown Philadelphia as well. In fact, the small access street behind my work
has a giant boiler in a back of an 18 wheeler that seems to be hooked up to
our building while they are working on pipes and such. it's crazy! It was
rented which i think was weird, there was a sign on the side to powerhouse, a
quick google reveals the link below

[https://www.powerhouse.com/boiler-rental/trailer-mounted-
boi...](https://www.powerhouse.com/boiler-rental/trailer-mounted-boilers)

------
frankus
A few years ago I was looking at the specific heat of common substances and
water is pretty much off the charts compared with everything else
([http://hyperphysics.phy-
astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Tables/sphtt.html](http://hyperphysics.phy-
astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Tables/sphtt.html)).

But the heat of vaporization is also huge: it takes about the same energy to
boil a quantity of water as it does to take it from 0°C to 100°C.

The main downside is that the vaporization/condensation has to take place at
100°C, which is arguably a bit hotter than is ideal for safe space heating.
Also the water returning to the boiler might not be cold enough to condense
out the water vapor from the fuel (more important in fuels like natural gas
with a big difference between HHV and LHV).

I've sometimes wondered if it would be practical to operate a steam heating
system at a partial vacuum so that the condensation/vaporization could occur
at a lower temperature, but I haven't seen that done anywhere so I'm guessing
the answer is no.

~~~
avhon1
> I've sometimes wondered if it would be practical to operate a steam heating
> system at a partial vacuum so that the condensation/vaporization could occur
> at a lower temperature

He actually talks about exactly this in the video!
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQB0KK2rxcw&t=573](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQB0KK2rxcw&t=573)

"You'll be sending steam up into the building at temperatures, in some cases,
as low as 150 degrees" (83 degrees C)

~~~
userbinator
Look up "vacuum vapor heating" for more info --- quite clever to do it even
without using a vacuum pump, just special vent valves.

------
nimbius
Im an engine mechanic at a small chain of midwestern shops, and Ive noticed
the closer our location gets to the great lakes, the more likely the shop heat
is going to be steam. The shop I work out of has reed radiators powered by a
coal furnace. We use our Reznor gas units because nobodies ever cared to get
the old system running again, but I feel like this would be a fun project.

------
jabl
Forgive the dumb question, but what's the point of these systems, compared to
just using hot water?

Here in northern Europe, these systems are virtually unheard of. What's quite
common, OTOH, are city-wide district heating systems, often run from the waste
heat from electric power plants. IIRC the temperature of the heating water
mains when going out from the plants is around 110C or so (it's water, not
steam, due to it being slightly pressurized [1]). Each house or block then has
it's own heat exchanger, used for heating the water that goes to the radiators
(which IIRC is kept above 60C to avoid bacterial growth) as well as producing
warm tap water.

[1] Which makes for a nice show when there's a break in the heating mains
somewhere; lots of steam coming out of the ground.

~~~
nkurz
_what 's the point of these systems, compared to just using hot water?_

The main advantage is probably that you don't need any pumps. This can
increase efficiency, and removes a major point of failure.

The other big difference is that phase transition from water to steam is very
high energy. By weight, steam transports 6x the heat of liquid water, and
releases 5/6 of this as soon as it condenses back to water. Depending on the
situation, this can be an advantage.

In general, I don't think that either system has a tremendous advantage --
they are just different. For modern systems, advantage probably leans to hot
water.

------
sailfast
"By the way you're a good looking group. Thank you for taking care of
yourselves. Last week I spoke to a group that was butt ugly and it was really
difficult. Speaker's burden, so... thanks for taking care of yourselves" Now
THAT is a technique haha.

This guy's so amped up and excited about this stuff it's amazing - even if you
are not interested in steam heat, you are now!

EDIT: This presentation is also great - similar, but more history:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkgM0qCy5o4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkgM0qCy5o4)

------
ryanmercer
Is it a lost art? If I'm not mistaken it's very much a thing still on the east
coast and in places like Iceland and parts of Russia.

~~~
kgilpin
I think it’s a lost art in that they aren’t being built any more, yet lots of
people have them.

In any case I live in Massachusetts and had steam heat for many years and
found these books super helpful. There are however some plumbers around here
that know their way around these systems.

------
ot8
I think it may come back in about 10 years coupled with a solar thermal
collector.

[https://www.chalmers.se/en/departments/chem/news/Pages/Emiss...](https://www.chalmers.se/en/departments/chem/news/Pages/Emissions-
free-energy-system-saves-heat-from-the-summer-sun-for-winter-.aspx)

------
jonbaer
One question I have with steam heating in say an old Brooklyn apartment
building is how healthy could it possibly be after so many years? Also some of
the valves are not really controllable, it's either you deal with extreme heat
or you shut it entirely off (for the room).

------
tvprod1203
I've yet to watch the video, but it seems weird to see praise for steam
heating systems to me when I've had literally nauseatingly overheated
apartments due to it.

Was I just unlucky enough to have to cope with lowest-bidder systems?

~~~
astura
There's nothing particular about steam heating that will cause overheating on
its own; it works identical to any other heating or cooling system; there's a
thermostat where you set the temperature and it turns the system on and off to
maintain the temperature at its set point. You change the set point if you are
uncomfortable.

Sometimes for multi unit buildings the landlord or super controls the heat for
the whole building, that can be a case of the heat being set hotter than the
occupant prefers, or perhaps just due to poor maintenance the system isn't
maintaining temperature properly. I'm not sure why they couldn't just turn off
individual radiators in this case though.

A properly set up and maintained steam heating system keeps temperature
properly and doesn't overheat the occupants.

~~~
bootlooped
I looked at an apartment that had steam heating via radiators in every room.
The landlord was very adamant that the tenants were not to adjust the
radiators. My guess as to why is that turning one off/down could make the
others hotter.

~~~
tvprod1203
Reading up on some of the links provided in this thread, I think that would
indicate a badly maintained system/too much pressure.

And I'm now quite sure I had to deal with a single-pipe system modified to not
have individual valves. Quite insane, but I guess that's what cheap owners
will do.

------
ablation
Fascinating, thank you for posting. I'm always intrigued by steam systems in
places like NYC.

------
JackFr
"Nothing happens until someone picks up a hammer"

------
randyrand
Great talk. Thanks Dan.

