
Choose Firefox Now, Or Later You Won't Get A Choice - joshmoz
http://robert.ocallahan.org/2014/08/choose-firefox-now-or-later-you-wont.html
======
lingben
I'm using firefox for another reason, it is the fastest, most secure, most
memory efficient browser out there. Chrome doesn't even compare on benchmarks.
They may have had the crown for a tiny split second a few years ago but not
anymore firefox closed the distance a while ago and now they're ahead and the
gap is growing.

~~~
pzxc
Everything you said is absolutely true.

Firefox rocks my world for all those reasons and more.

Hell, I would use it just for the Tree-Style Tabs addon, which isn't available
for Chrome.

But I use Chrome at least as often as Firefox for one reason alone: when
everything doesn't go smoothly and a page does crash, it doesn't take the
whole browser down with it.

When Firefox hangs and/or crashes, it's much more annoying because everything
is interrupted to a greater degree.

Chrome: Oops! This tab crashed, just reload it or close it and move on.

Firefox: _Firefox has encountered an error and must be closed. Do you wish to
debug?_

As someone who spends a third of the day on the web professionally, and always
has 10-50 tabs open, it matters.

~~~
findjashua
+1 switched to ffox primarily because of tree-style tabs.

~~~
MetaCosm
Forever on Firefox because of tree-style tabs.

------
kisil_reboot
This is baseless FUD; any serious objections he might have are only hinted at:
"things I can't talk about". If everyone switched to Chrome, at worst Chrome
would get complacent, as IE did, and at best, it would continue to be a great
browser.

Use whatever browser you like best.

~~~
nnethercote
> This is baseless FUD; any serious objections he might have are only hinted
> at: "things I can't talk about"

The author is Robert O'Callahan, who is a Distinguished Engineer at Mozilla
and a 15-year veteran of browser development. He's not just some random
blogger spouting off.

~~~
dwaltrip
Being a distinguished engineer at Mozilla doesn't necessarily make one far
more qualified to understand the vast array of potential implications of
Google gaining monopoly power in a variety of web sectors.

~~~
2muchcoffeeman
No, but it might. I'm sure the author has spent vastly more time looking at
web standards and trends than I have and as such, his opinion should carry
more weight than your average person.

You've simply pulled out a variation on the old "correlation does not imply
causation" retort.

~~~
dwaltrip
No, I pulled a more wordy version of "that's an appeal to authority fallacy".
And I believe my point still stands. The author is speaking of issues that are
several orders of magnitude of complexity above "writing amazing web software
at Mozilla" and also impacted by a variety of fields that are very different
than software engineering. Thus he is only marginally more informed than your
average HN user.

------
brianpgordon
I've been using Firefox as my primary browser since it was called Firebird,
and I have to say that I'm on the cusp of switching away from it. It seems
like every time I update, the UI breaks. With the latest update, for some
reason my address bar is gigantic:

[https://i.imgur.com/2QlIZwo.png](https://i.imgur.com/2QlIZwo.png)

It also enabled address bar autocomplete, which I did not previously have
enabled.

The previous update, Firefox 29, came with Australis, which left me with a
completely unusable configuration and required me to fiddle with yet another
"classic restorer" style addon. I now use:

    
    
      * "Classic theme restorer" to gut Australis
      * "oldbar" to get rid of the AwesomeBar
      * "Old default image style" to restore the old style for displaying raw images.
      * "Switch to tab no more" to cut off yet another head of the hydra that is AwesomeBar
      * "Undo close tab replacement" to restore the Recently closed tabs menu.
    

All to fight back against UI-breaking new features. I also had to muddle
around with browser.urlbar settings in about:config to restore some kind of
sane behavior to the address bar after AwesomeBar was introduced.

But what can I do? I obviously need security updates and the latest support
for web standards, so I can't ignore new versions. But I'm tired of fighting a
browser that I no longer recognize.

~~~
dbbolton
I used Firefox (more specifically Iceweasel) as my sole browser from roughly
version 3 until somewhere in the late twenties.

Recently I started using Chromium off and on because FF just seems to be so
damn slow if I have more than four tabs open. Reddit + RES is so slow that
it's completely unusable. I'm talking a several second delay between each
keystroke and the character appearing in the input boxes.

Also, FF's sync is quite a pain to set up, especially if you don't have
another device with you.

I fear the recent UI changes may have been the last nail in the coffin for me.
I had a very nice setup using pentadactyl with some select add-on icons on the
statusline. Now, that isn't possible. I have to choose between a superfluous
navigation bar or no icons.

~~~
tarminian
Iceweasel is probably your issue. I don't use the Debian hack of firefox and
have no problems, >50 tabs open all the time. Also, looks like the last
release of pentadactyl was March 15, that is old by Internet standards. I
don't think firefox is the issue here.

~~~
dbbolton
I had the same issues on vanilla FF on Windows 7 too.

------
glesica
I just wish they'd focus more on producing a great browser and less on random,
wacky, side projects. Not that the side projects aren't interesting, but the
browser is what I care about. Even this person, who is associated with Mozilla
can't say anything more positive than "[w]e have a good browser...".

That said, he's right... `sudo apt-get install firefox`.

~~~
ejr
There are halo benefits to the side projects as well. Some experimental or
otherwise "daring" functionality in a side project can become invaluable
within the browser core at a future date. It's a bit like an external stimulus
triggering a random mutation that proves to be beneficial.

Ex: Popup blocking required modification to the browser before it became a
vital core feature.

------
baddox
> So if you want an Internet --- which means, in many ways, a world --- that
> isn't controlled by Google, you must stop using Chrome now and encourage
> others to do the same. If you don't, and Google wins, then in years to come
> you'll wish you had a choice and have only yourself to blame for spurning it
> now.

I sympathize with the general sentiment of the article, but this is just
hyperbole. I used Firefox when it was the best browser (for me), and I'm using
Chrome now because it's the best browser.

~~~
nnethercote
"I eat candy because it tastes better than vegetables".

It's an analogy, and hence imperfect, but might still be useful.

~~~
usingpond
I strongly disagree with your analogy.

Chrome is not a superficially better browser—as a web developer I can attest
that Chrome beats out Firefox in myriad ways. Candy has no value other than
flavor, and is actually bad for you. The advent of Google's release of Chrome
(and the collaboration between Google and Apple engineers on WebKit) has
launched the web forward at a speed that Firefox has been struggling to keep
up with. That INCLUDES security and openness, not just new prefixed CSS
properties.

The browser war was Firefox's to lose, and they dropped the ball. They weren't
ready for Chrome, and have yet to catch up.

------
nanexcool
Deoesn't Mozilla get like 85% of its budget from Google? [1]

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Foundation#Financing](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Foundation#Financing)

~~~
dethstar
Yup, to be the default search engine. I'm so glad they get that money.

aren't most biggish free(and open source) software projects in GSOC?
[https://www.google-
melange.com/gsoc/org/list/public/google/g...](https://www.google-
melange.com/gsoc/org/list/public/google/gsoc2014) Should we stop
using/trusting anything that get resources from Google, ever?

~~~
Eyas
We shouldn't-- but I think the grandparent post is saying that "switch from
Chrome to Firefox so as not to support Google" is not an entirely valid
argument given the funding situation. Simply put, if you think "this is
Google-related" is a reason to switch away from something, then maybe it
becomes relevant that Google is funding a big portion of alternative sources?

Obviously there are a few issues with the argument, but I think it brings up
an important point.. and demands that the anti-Chrome/pro-Firefox argument
matures a bit more.

~~~
reubenmorais
Roc's point is specifically about Chrome, and letting a single player control
how people access the Web. Using Firefox with DuckDuckGo, or Bing, or whatever
search engine you prefer is still better than using Chrome.

------
Qwertious
I think half of the comments on this thread are missing the point - to
paraphrase Richard Stallman, the link is arguing from _freedom_ , not
convenience. Responding with "but Chrome is better" may be true or it may be
false, but in both cases it is irrelevant.

[https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-
point....](https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html)

------
chrismorgan
I have been a Firefox user from 0.93 or so, except for a year or so of Chrome
usage on a USB disk when Firefox really was performing too badly in that
case—but once that was fixed I gladly moved back to Firefox. I see how people
use Chrome and wonder how they can possibly stand it, especially if they end
up with more than twenty tabs in a window… Firefox is certainly _way_ better
for tab management for me. I use Firefox both because I believe it is the best
browser for me and for philosophical reasons. (I also have approved of almost
every change to Firefox that I’ve seen; 4 was a great thing, Australis was a
great thing, &c.)

I have also been gravely concerned, as the author is, by what I see at Google.
Five years ago, had there been Google offices in Melbourne, I would have
enjoyed working for them. In the three years since then I steadily became
opposed to Google and I do not believe that I would be willing to be employed
by them; they are now pushing the Chrome brand far too far, using a very
significant marketing budget on it purely to get people to use it, and from
their other web properties pushing Chrome constantly, almost always to my mind
deceptively and far too often outright lying. Telling people to upgrade from
IE6 was entirely understandable, and I could even forgive that they will push
their own browser rather than merely pushing for a newer browser of whichever
brand. But if I’m using Firefox, why would you go pestering me to “upgrade” to
this browser with claims of its being faster _which are simply not true_? Four
years ago they were true, to be sure; Firefox _was_ slower than Chrome. But
that has long since been fixed and the two are competitive now, Chrome winning
in some areas, Firefox winning in others. (Of course, I believe Firefox to be
winning in more, but that can immediately be discounted as a biased and
unreasoned view.)

I look at what punishment Microsoft got for its anticompetitive behaviour and
I wonder how long it can be before Google is dealt with. Because as it is,
they’re just as great a threat as Microsoft ever was to the web, if not
greater.

Google looks fair and feels foul.

~~~
greenyoda
_" I look at what punishment Microsoft got for its anticompetitive behaviour
and I wonder how long it can be before Google is dealt with."_

That's a good point. The article says that Google is "writing contracts with
Android OEMs forcing them to make Chrome the default browser". When Microsoft
was doing that a while back with Internet Explorer, they were sued by the
government and forced to unbundle IE from Windows.

~~~
dragonwriter
It wasn't the bundling that was the problem, its the fact that the bundling
was a mechanism for leveraging their desktop OS monopoly to displace
competition in a different market. You can't leverage a monopoly when you
don't have a monopoly to leverage.

~~~
dblohm7
Like using their search engine to promote Chrome?

~~~
dragonwriter
No, promotion is nothing like mandatory tying.

------
DanBlake
Im sad to say there is only one reason left that I continue to use firefox as
my main browser- The most excellent security addon, noscript, by Giorgio
Maone. (and before you say chrome can block javascript- understand noscript
does much, much more than just block JS)

If he was to port that to chrome, I would be gone in a heartbeat. Chrome is
(from my experiences browsing the web with both browsers), a better browser in
almost every sense of the word. Faster updates, Feels much faster browsing and
overall just a more enjoyable user experience.

If firefox wants to stay relevant, they will have a real battle on their
hands.

This latest design update firefox did is especially infuriating. The steps
firefox was making me take to revert my experience to what I knew was
insulting. I understand you want me to use this new interface, but you are
going to hardcode it so much that I have to read a 3 page doc and install
random addons to revert it? This mentality seems to plague mozilla. A bunch of
FOSS guys get to decide what the rest of end up with every release.

~~~
fabrice_d
And how will that be better for you if you switch to chrome? Will google
listen more to your UI wishes?

I also don't understand why you claim that Chrome has faster updates, since
both browsers have a 6 weeks update cycle.

------
waffl
Also a very happy user of Aurora, the new dev tool features in r33 are making
Firefox yet more wonderful to browse/work with. I was using Chrome exclusively
for years until I began to realize the general ramifications of giving in to
an 'all Google' internet. My only issue with Firefox is the still seemingly
slower JS engine. I still feel SpiderMonkey isn't still as fast as V8.

------
ubercow
There are always going to be people that use a particular browser for a
particular reason and it's that competition that encourages the organization
behind the browser to improve.

Instead of using baseless FUD to try and win people over to your browser, work
on making it the best from a usability and performance standpoint so people
move over to it naturally. That's what Chrome did to me when it came out and
what keeps me using it today.

~~~
dj-wonk
Sure, competition is good, but Google vs. Mozilla isn't a fair fight. Google
has more resources. As long as Google improves Chrome enough to keep users,
they can simultaneously do things that are not good for the Web as a whole.
They can, on average, get away with it if people don't complain or switch away
due to the parts that are unsavory.

The article does not lay out a watertight argument, but I see what it is
trying to say: pay attention to more than just the obvious features of a
browser -- also pay attention to its implications in the market.

Smart people realize that it is not in your self-interest to simply buy the
best (cheapest or fastest) product or service, if defined narrowly. If you
care about reliability, longevity, and service, sometimes you pay more or
accept some idiosyncrasies, because your goal is to support an organization
that behaves in a way that you like.

It is naive to think that "choosing the best browser" is simply a matter of
the browser itself. There is a bigger story, and if you don't at least
recognize this, it might be time to take the blinders off.

------
tonteldoos
A bigger takeaway from this blog may be the centralization of information
(regardless of the company that does it). I'd be less worried about my browser
of choice, and more about my ability to retain ownership of my data.

FWIW, I've started self-hosting as much as possible of my 'critical' items, be
it at home, or on a VPS. You don't need vast amounts of bandwidth, and it's
become much easier to setup over time (OpenVPN, OwnCloud, gitlab, or even just
using a NAS with such features).

Items that you want to share are a slightly different matter (size, bandwidth,
server security, etc), but in general I dislike putting my entire life on
social media anyway.

~~~
seanflyon
I friend of mine is making it more user friendly to "self-host" third party
apps on hardware you have control over.

[https://sandstorm.io/](https://sandstorm.io/)

------
leeoniya
quote about Mike Shaver (mozilla co-founder, now at FB) from
[http://john.jubjubs.net/2011/09/15/mike-shaver-
thanks/](http://john.jubjubs.net/2011/09/15/mike-shaver-thanks/)

> And he affected my framing of the problem deeply – I remember one day a
> couple of years back when we were talking about some market share point,
> thinking about how incredibly, insanely competitive the browser technology
> landscape was – and he said to me: “Look, this is the world we wanted. And
> this is the world we made.” Wow. Exactly right. He taught me so much about
> how enormous an impact a group of dedicated people can make.

------
wldcordeiro
Chose it years ago and was never really taken by Chrome, I usually install it
to test against from time to time but I spend 95% of my browsing time within
Nightly (daily browser for 9 years now!)

------
eikenberry
I switched to Chromium back when they first started with the fast release
system and kept breaking my plugins. I've thought about switching back but
need Chromium's ability to run newer versions of Flash. So I want to run both,
but I have a large bookmark collection I use all the time and have found no
good way to either keep the 2 browsers bookmarks in sync or an external
bookmark management program.

Anyone have a good solution to bookmarks? This would be for Debian.

~~~
cpeterso
I haven't used it, but Xmarks Sync is an add-on for Firefox and Chrome that
synchronizes your bookmarks. Xmarks Inc also maintains the popular LastPass
add-on.

[https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/xmarks-
sync/](https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/xmarks-sync/)

------
ludwik
I was using Firefox to keep the web free, but then they agreed to start
supporting DRM and I figured out here is no point to do this any more. I use
Chrome now.

~~~
M2Ys4U
Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

------
BinaryIdiot
You shouldn't use a product only because you're worried the competition will
do something theoretical; you should use a product that provides you with the
best value.

For me, right now, it's Chrome. Before Chrome it was Opera. Mozilla needs to
focus on providing better value in their browser rather the current releases
which seem to always contain odd half-assed features.

------
ksk
I try to use FF every now and then, but unfortunately, Chrome is just a better
browser in every respect, for my needs. My configuration is pretty simple, no
flash, no java, no silverlight, no nothing. With FF I always get the feeling
like I'm running a single threaded app, and where one tab can interfere with
the performance of the other.

------
syf81
Telling people to stop using a Google product, because it's a Google
product... from a Google blog platform, hilarious.

------
redxblood
I have just one comment: Go mozilla, you rock.

------
jdhendrickson
I was a huge proponent of Firefox for years (since Netscape 6), version 30
broke it so badly I had to move on to Chrome, two tabs open no plugins and it
crashes on a machine with 16Gb of ram if left open over night, and the bug is
trivial to reproduce. Updates haven't remedied the situation. When Google no
longer monetizes Firefox via paying them to be the default search engine I
don't see Firefox staying relevant, it's a shame I miss built in (no plugin
needed) tab grouping, I miss having a search box that doesn't tell Google
everything I'm typing as I'm typing it, and I certainly miss the smaller
memory footprint. I just can't handle the constant crashing, the webpages that
render as a completely black box (whether video acceleration is check marked
or not) and the continued degradation in performance while they spend
developer cycles on things like making it look like Chrome (a move I detested)
or removing options power users and professionals use. Most of the time I can
use about:config to restore functionality but should I have too? (echos of
Gnome).

~~~
bdcravens
_When Google no longer monetizes Firefox via paying them to be the default
search engine I don 't see Firefox staying relevant_

You think Microsoft would hesitate cutting a Bing deal?

~~~
agapos
Well, afaik they didn't break their bones to do so before. Also, if Google is
gone, no matter how small amount MS would offer for defaulting Bing, Mozilla
would have no choice but to accept it.

------
yousifa
Even if chrome does end up gaining a monopoly on browsers (or google in
general is in a monopoly position), eventually they will cease to innovate and
will be taken over by the underdog (or the newest/best solution).

~~~
kedean
I think the difference this time is that if Google controls the browser AND
the biggest websites, then they'll be more confident introducing features that
lock you into that browser (See the offline storage bit mentioned in the
article). With those lockin features more common, people will be less willing
to support other browsers in the future, because they wont be able to offer
those exclusive features. With that large userbase that can use cool features
like those, other large websites will take advantage of the proprietary API's
(see, the issue with webkit css prefixes right now). Lack of possible support
from users means most alternatives wouldn't be able to gain any traction,
which is going to discourage any growth in that field.

A comparison I think is valid is if an

~~~
callahad
Google has very deep pockets, and is successfully executing an astonishingly
vast integration play. Google can potentially own:

\- Your communications (Gmail, Hangouts, Voice)

\- Your working data (Drive, Docs)

\- Your footprint on the Web (Google Analytics, Ads)

\- Your footprint on the Internet (Fiber, Loon)

\- Your browser (Chrome)

\- Your operating system (ChromeOS, Android, GlassOS)

\- Your device (Chromebooks, Glass, Wear, Android phones and tablets)

\- Your movements and travel (Maps, Ingress, ITA)

\- Your robotic overlords (Boston Dynamics)

Not to mention the upcoming plays for home integration (Nest, Thread), your
means of transportation (Android Auto, self-driving cars), and your activity
and health data (Fit).

Each vertical success reinforces the Google Platform, and lends momentum to
Google's efforts in other verticals. It presents one hell of a barrier for
start-ups (unless you fancy share-cropping), decreases consumer choice, and
ultimately, that amount of consolidated power just doesn't seem healthy for a
functioning market or society.

Edit: All of that, and I somehow forgot YouTube. And G+. But we _all_ forgot
G+, right?

~~~
Havvy
And Twitch...sorta

------
simonlebo
I just tried using Firefox again after reading this. I stopped after 2
minutes, when I realised installing the flash plugin was a pain. Apparently
Adobe stopped supporting Flash for linux in 2012.

------
socalnate1
Err... Didn't Internet Explorer have 90% browser share 10 years ago? (i.e.
Microsoft achieved exactly what this post is warning against?)

And yet, somehow we aren't all living in a Microsoftian dystopia.

~~~
jomohke
It did. But Microsoft disbanded the IE team after they won that marketshare,
which gave other browsers years to catch up.

Things may have looked very different had they continued the heavy development
pace after releasing IE6. IE had a fast and modern engine compared to
contemporaries when IE6 was first released, but then it went five years
without any major updates.

I'm undecided about Google's growing browser control, but in any case I don't
see Google making the same mistakes as Microsoft.

------
zorked
I use Firefox, but it would be easier to recommend if it had a sandbox.

~~~
dblohm7
Coming soon!
[https://wiki.mozilla.org/Security/Sandbox](https://wiki.mozilla.org/Security/Sandbox)

------
cwyers
IE and Safari are always (for some reasonable definition of always) going to
exist. Firefox is the browser whose entire revenue stream is based around
hoping Google DOESN'T want a browser monoculture to develop. If Mr. O'Callahan
wants to use Firefox as a way to stop Google from taking over the web, there's
two things he as a Mozilla coder he could do that would be far more effective
than histrionic blog posts that say "other bad things are happening that I
can't even talk about" and expect me to be able to fill in the blanks:

1) Build a better browser than Chrome, and 2) Come up with a way to generate
revenue that doesn't depend on Google's benevolence towards Firefox.

------
cordite
Mozilla is not interested in enterprise users, so my employer chooses to only
use chrome and internet explorer internally, and for supporting internal and
external products.

------
boards2x
If the first thing you have to say about yourself is that you're "Christian",
I don't know that I really care what else you have to say.

Are non Christians suppose to be offended ? Will I be able to ignore the fact
that he may be a pro-lifer supporting attacks on abortion clinics? A tea-
bagger...

Find it tasteless to present oneself this way, and it seems it's only Anglo-
Saxon Christians who choose to do so. As if they're a persecuted minority
coming out of the closet.

Did anyone ever see non Christians introducing themselves on their blog by
their religion or belive system? Jon Doe, atheist? Jane Doe, Muslim?

------
diminoten
I've been using IE11 ever since Chrome caused BSODs on my custom build, and
frankly I don't really notice the difference very much.

------
GHFigs
Choose Opera Now, Opt-out of Chrome/Firefox fanboy slapfights.

------
Kiro
I'm not going to switch because of some imaginary ideological reason I
couldn't care less about. I'm not going to switch until Firefox is actually
better (I use both on a daily basis when developing).

------
mconley
Viva la resistance!

------
Shorel
But I like Opera.

------
bkerensa
<3 Firefox

------
WorldWideWayne
Good. I hope Mozilla goes away. They think everything should be "web". They
think everything should be "open". They don't respect native platforms and
they want to keep the web duct-taped together the way it is instead of making
something better that is actually an application platform. I disagree on all
counts.

(Remember folks, don't down-vote just because you disagree! Sorry if it
offends your sensibilities :)

------
tunnuz
The End is Nigh!

