
Will the UK's gas holders be missed? - teoruiz
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-30405066
======
awjr
They have just finally taken down the last one in Bath. This is a 'good'
thing. What has to be realised is that the ones that are being taken down are
usually in the heart of a city and take up valuable 'brownfield development
land.

The UK is suffering from a housing shortage in certain areas of the country
and has very few options to expand housing stock that do not involve
developing greenfield sites.

I do wish they could have come up with a way to incorporate the existing
structures into the new development but this would be perceived as a massive
long term maintenance issue and probably not an optimum housing density.

From a city point of view, 2000+ new homes vs three defunct gas holders is a
no brainer in revenue generation (£4,000,000 per year in taxes).
[http://www.bathwesternriverside.com/overview/](http://www.bathwesternriverside.com/overview/)

~~~
noir_lord
Agreed but honestly we need to open up (some) greenfield land as well.

The housing shortage in the UK is crippling and it will only get worse.

~~~
pjc50
The housing shortage is very location-specific. Stoke-on-Trent were selling
houses for £1 and giving renovation grants to anyone who promised to actually
live there and make the area less run down.

If only there were ways of moving jobs out of London. London housing by
comparison needs to go _up_ more - not the >10 story tower blocks, more like 5
storys. Unfortunately this would probably involve clearing a lot of
picturesque spacious Victorian terraces.

~~~
kps

      > If only there were ways of moving jobs out of London.
    

If only there were a significant class of jobs whose work product could be
transmitted electronically at negligible expense.

~~~
pjc50
I know, right? And yet loads of them are concentrated in extremely expensive
cities.

------
Latty
Whenever some new structure comes around, people complain and moan about
noise, how they look, and generally take a 'not on my doorstep' attitude.

Then, X years later, when they get taken away, people say they miss them.

~~~
gabemart
It's possible that the people who oppose these projects are not the same
people who miss them when they're gone.

------
joars
I am trying to imagine a building sized cylinder appearing and dissapearing
throughout the day in my neighbourhood, on a regular basis. Seems kind of cool
to me.

------
feintruled
I heard this story on the radio first, which led to me being nonplussed when I
later saw the pictures.

Stories like this, and the current frenzy for listed buildings in the UK makes
me feel there is a little too much respect afforded past architecture. Should
we be keeping structures that aren't beautiful either by the standards of
their time or ours, simply because it is old? Will we be eventually
constrained in creating new styles, if we are stuck preserving past ones?

~~~
Shivetya
Well an inventive architect could incorporate the theme of these into a new
structure, if not actual pieces. I could see bringing some of the decorative
structure for a large indoor area, or modeling the exterior on it.

However similar sentiment can lead to stagnation as areas are not developed
and instead become depressed from disuse. Now granted most of the push is
likely coming from the lack of housing for the rich than trying to find new
space for the poor

~~~
bainsfather
Here is a converted one in Dublin [0] - I thought it looked very good when I
visited it.

[0] [http://omparchitects.com/en/projects/the-
gasworks/](http://omparchitects.com/en/projects/the-gasworks/)

~~~
furyg3
And here's one in Amsterdam:
[http://www.residentadvisor.net/images/clubs/photos/2012-04-0...](http://www.residentadvisor.net/images/clubs/photos/2012-04-08_awakenings_0919_photo-
company.nl.jpg)

------
chrisb
I was wondering if these could be used to store hydrogen generated by solar
water-splitting? Could the hydrogen be piped in place of natural gas? Or
combined with natural gas? seemingly "town gas" was primarily hydrogen [1]. Or
it could generate electricity via combustion or fuel cell, providing
dispatchable renewable energy with grid-scale storage :)

An averaged-size gas-holder has capacity of ~50,000 m^3 [2]. Gas holders store
gas at essentially atmospheric pressure, so the stored hydrogen has an energy
density of ~0.01 MJ/L [3] = ~10^7 J/m^3. So the gas-holder energy capacity is
~5*10^11 J = ~140 MWh

In comparison Dinorwig pumped-storage power station in the UK has an energy
capacity of ~9000 MWh [4]

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_gas#Composition](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_gas#Composition)

[2]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_holder](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_holder)

[3]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density)

[4]
[http://www.withouthotair.com/c26/page_191.shtml](http://www.withouthotair.com/c26/page_191.shtml)

~~~
awjr
Thought storing Hydrogen was notoriously hard because it can penetrates rather
effectively through pretty much anything.

~~~
chrisb
I can't find a reference now, but as I understand it this isn't so much of an
issue at low pressure.

Apparently underground low pressure storage has been used successfully:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_storage#Underground_hy...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_storage#Underground_hydrogen_storage)

------
joosters
The caption of one of the photos - 'The pylon stays, the gas holder will go'
\- made me think: Will pylons ever go away? Is there any possible future tech
out there that might make electricity pylons a thing of the past too?

~~~
arrrg
It is possible to put that all underground, that's just extremely expensive.
(That's currently a hotly debated topic in my region, since the new north-
south connection in Germany is very controversial and underground transmission
is sometimes brought up as a solution, though not really a realistic one.)

I really don't know if underground transmission will ever be economical. In
principle it's possible, though, if you want to spend the money.

~~~
dmethvin
Not only expensive to run things underground, it introduces maintenance
nightmares. Overhead lines can easily be inspected and even repaired while in
service [1]. Underground lines cannot easily be inspected _or_ repaired. Even
when there are multiple lines, failures can overload the remaining lines as
happened in Auckland [2]. If you want to get an idea of the hassle repairing
an underground line is like, read this series of posts [3].

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tA9oBEHRLqQ&hd=1](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tA9oBEHRLqQ&hd=1)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Auckland_power_crisis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Auckland_power_crisis)

[3] [http://www.jwz.org/blog/2002/11/engineering-
pornography/](http://www.jwz.org/blog/2002/11/engineering-pornography/)

------
DanBC
The train from Cheltenham to West Drayton used to travel past some light
industrial sites. I strongly associate the smell of coffee[1], canals and car-
scrapyards, and the gas-holder next to that line with visiting my parents when
they lived outside London.

There's a bunch of this functional stuff that just gets churned over. That's
probably mostly good, but it'd be nice to keep a few of them around as
examples.

I think we (in the UK) can be dismissive of stuff that's only from the 1950s
or 1920s because we have so much that is much much older.

[1] The Nestle factory?

~~~
parados
The coffee smell is because of Heathrow. They do about one roast a week for
all the onboard catering.

~~~
Symbiote
No, it was the Nestlé factory in Hayes (West London), although it's recently
closed down. A train heading out of London to West Drayton would pass very
close by.

[http://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/news/local-news/nestl-
factory...](http://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/news/local-news/nestl-factory-
hayes-sold-up-8429836)

[https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Nestle+UK+Ltd/@51.50038,...](https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Nestle+UK+Ltd/@51.50038,-0.416659,15z/)

------
PhantomGremlin
The US produces and consumes enormous amounts of natural gas. Demand peaks in
winter, and there is need for seasonal storage, mostly underground.[1] The
amount stored is far greater than what could be contained by gas holders.

Gas holders used to dot the periphery of big cities in the US, and some
probably still do. But there's actually a newer solution: LNG. This sounds
expensive, because large amounts of energy are required to liquify the gas.
But the 600:1 volume improvement makes it worthwhile.

Two LNG tanks or 1200 gas holders? You decide! :)

Of course, sometimes things go horribly wrong[2], which is how I first learned
about LNG for "peakshaving"[3] purposes.

[1]
[http://www.eia.gov/pub/oil_gas/natural_gas/analysis_publicat...](http://www.eia.gov/pub/oil_gas/natural_gas/analysis_publications/storagebasics/storagebasics.html)
[2] [http://www.kulr8.com/story/25118246/fire-and-explosion-at-
na...](http://www.kulr8.com/story/25118246/fire-and-explosion-at-natural-gas-
plant-in-plymouth) [3] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lng#Small-
scale_liquefaction_p...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lng#Small-
scale_liquefaction_plants)

------
youngtaff
I've always wondered about making a building that follows the same form and
re-using the frame externally (though obviously not for structural support)

~~~
alex_hitchins
Some of the frames are a real work of art. Shame it's all going to be
scrapped.

The Victorians put so much soul in to public utilities it seems a real shame
to not recognise them for more than gas tanks.

~~~
noir_lord
They absolutely did.

[http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0b/The_Octag...](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0b/The_Octagon,_Crossness_Pumping_Station.jpg)

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossness_Pumping_Station](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossness_Pumping_Station)

They saw public works and modern engineering as a statement of intent about
where we where going in the future and they took pleasure in making things
beautiful even when it was hidden (indeed it was common for ladies and
gentlemen to go on tours of civic works including sewage treatment plants).

I think we could do with a little bit more of that attitude sometimes.

------
cesarb
And on the other side of the ocean, a deactivated gasometer at Rio de Janeiro
([https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas%C3%B4metro_de_S%C3%A3o_Cri...](https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas%C3%B4metro_de_S%C3%A3o_Crist%C3%B3v%C3%A3o))
will also be replaced by residential and commercial buildings
([http://oglobo.globo.com/rio/terreno-do-gasometro-vai-ser-
ocu...](http://oglobo.globo.com/rio/terreno-do-gasometro-vai-ser-ocupado-por-
predios-residenciais-comerciais-hoteis-shoppings-13627275)).

------
teddyuk
Yes, I will miss them they have always been there and now, nothing.

~~~
CmonDev
An office/block of flats will not keep people waiting. Can't see stars, can't
see horizon.

------
arethuza
I rather like the one in Granton Edinburgh:

[http://www.grantonhistory.org/industry/gas_works.htm](http://www.grantonhistory.org/industry/gas_works.htm)

------
codeulike
I've always wondered how those things worked. They always seemed dangerous,
like having an airship parked in the middle of a city.

~~~
noir_lord
Walls are stronger than the roof and the gas isn't under particulary large
pressures so mostly you'd have a big fireball.

------
furyg3
In Amsterdam one of these (and the very old industrial terrain around it) has
been repurposed into public spaces.

Concerts/Festivals are frequently held:
[http://www.residentadvisor.net/images/clubs/photos/2012-04-0...](http://www.residentadvisor.net/images/clubs/photos/2012-04-08_awakenings_0919_photo-
company.nl.jpg)

------
fnordfnordfnord
Gas holder time lapse
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZpVojSJ09k&t=66](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZpVojSJ09k&t=66)

------
lmm
Oh FFS. I bet these are the same people who are complaining about (much more
elegant and beautiful IMO) wind turbines.

These things were elegant engineering when they were doing something valuable,
but it's the elegance of something functional - and they're not functional any
more. They take up a lot of space that could be used productively. Good
riddance.

------
optimusprinceps
I have one near my home, I always wondered what that thing was.

