

Can Africa produce a Google, Facebook or Microsoft? - aitoehigie

are there hackers in africa and other 3rd world countries? and can they produce companies like google, facebook or microsoft?
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pcc
Sure there are (many) problems -- but where there is a will there is a way.

Eg South Africa produced Thawte which at one time had > 40% of the world
market in SSL certs. Bought by Verisign for $500m, allowing its founder (Mark
Shuttleworth) to become the 2nd paid space tourist, to create an early-stage
VC called HBD, and to move on to things like Canonical (Ubuntu Linux). At the
time, played differently, it could have been Thawte that bought Verisign (but
Mark did not have an interest in that).

IIRC he is based from the UK these days (in part because of tax reasons), but
very much maintains his ties to Africa. And Thawte is still based out of Cape
Town.

Arguably, all the "negatives" actually have an advantage, and African hackers
can actually get to be really good -- because the environment forces them to
innovate and be creative. (Which is why they can do things like build LEO
microsatellites for under $5m -- eg <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SUNSAT>).

There are of course several cases of (ex)-Africans founding successful
companies in the USA (Paypal being a notable example) -- which is admittedly a
little different.

Arguably environment is just another "tool" in the entrepreneur's toolbox --
some will gain advantage by changing environment, others by exploiting
uniqueness in theirs and finding ways to deal with the challenges.

An interesting comment made once by Mark Shuttleworth, was that if a fashion
company establishes in Paris (or a financial one in New York), it is
immediately a challenge to be more than just average in that domain, to "stand
out" as it were. He claimed this was a significant advantage for Thawte at the
time.

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soyapi
I think it's possible and more likely so in a niche specific to developing
countries like Malaria/HIV software, low-bandwith solutions, etc.

Otherwise it's much easier to produce a 37signals, just like everywhere else,
I guess.

Disclaimer: I'm an African in Africa. In my day-job, I work for a non-profit
developing a Rails application for managing delivery for HIV medication
(baobabhealth.org)

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petercooper
I think we need to look a step back. Africa can barely produce a Ford or a
General Electric!

That said, there has been speculation lately that Africa might well be able to
leapfrog over a lot of industrial development and jump straight to developing
a knowledge economy, but with the cultural and political issues (and "issues"
is an understatement) African countries have with (and within) each other,
this seems overly positive for the short term.

~~~
pcc
Maybe you are a beer or appletiser drinker ;) (SAB Miller has a market cap
double that of Ford, if I'm not mistaken)

~~~
petercooper
Tellingly, though, they're now based in London! But, yes, South Africa can
provide some counterexamples.

~~~
pcc
I would be interested to know what precisely the word "tellingly" means in
this context ;)

This actually has to do with access to capital markets.

It is a common pattern for these companies to decide to list on LSE or NYSE,
since it allows them broader access to more capital. (Consider for example
that Telkom, SA's goverment telco, is itself listed on the NYSE for this same
reason).

To some companies, LSE is attractive because London is the "closest stop" from
Johannesburg, travel-wise (and an easy timezone diff). In SABMiller's case,
they are cross-listed in London and Johannesburg.

This makes sense when you talk to stockbrokers in the USA (or Canada) that
tell you they will execute a trade on the JSE @ $250 minimum commission -- but
that they must advise against it because the markets are so volatile (which to
me seems an exageration).

~~~
petercooper
You have essentially stated the facts I could use to support my somewhat
cynical "tellingly." Africa is not going to be an economic world power until
it has the ability to trade within itself to the extent that, say, Europe was
50 years ago. That a successful South African country has chosen to base
itself (not just list) in Europe seems like a statement on Africa's commercial
climate to me.

In any case, I am willing to defer to those more knowledgeable about African
economics in this thread :)

~~~
pcc
That's why I ask the question -- it seems this is the easy conclusion people
jump to (ie to construe this type of a move as "abandoning Africa") -- while
in fact it is a strategy designed to benefit both African operations as well
as international expansion.

After the fall of apartheid, SAB could expand very rapidly in overseas
markets. However, its ability to grow internationally was limited by foreign
exchange controls that restricted its use of cash from its South African
brewing operations to fund overseas expansion. Thus it wanted to acquire
access to the global share market to further its growth in the international
business.

The strategy on LSE listing incidentally is mentioned on their site:
([http://www.sabmiller.com/sabmiller.com/en_gb/Our+business/Ou...](http://www.sabmiller.com/sabmiller.com/en_gb/Our+business/Our+history/1900+1999.htm))
"..the strategy is to develop and expand its international beer and other
beverage operations and to invest in the rapidly-growing gaming industry in
South Africa."

For an African company seeking to expand internationally (ie Europe, USA etc),
I do not see what relevance trading within Africa really has -- surely any
company setting up shop everywhere, wants to facilitate investors coming in
from everywhere. And it is true that investors anywhere in the world can
invest via LSE, NYSE etc much more easily than they can into the Johannesburg
JSE, or Thailand, or whatever.

This does not make SAB a British company, nor does it make Telkom an American
company, just because they are set up to access capital markets via the
UK/USA.

This is not really markedly different to (say) a USA multinational deciding to
base itself out of the Cayman Islands for tax purposes. (Surely this would not
be deemed "abandoning the USA").

If SAB had ceased its operations in Africa, different matter -- that would
have been a statement on the commercial climate. But they certainly have not
done this.

But hey, the initial question was related to whether Africa could produce a
large (possibly multinational) company -- and SAB is clearly an example not
just of this, but of being able and willing to apply whatever strategy is
required to get the desired result (even if you choose to construe this as
"abandoning Africa"). From this viewpoint, it seems almost irrelevant whether
one considers SAB to be a British or an African company in the present time.

Since Naspers has been mentioned elsewhere, it is perhaps worth using them as
an example of an African company which has achieved international expansion
while remaining firmly listed only on the JSE.

And just to make this reply even longer ;), a further example of what has come
out of Africa: Naspers pay TV ops (via MIH) developed and deployed to Africa
digital satellite TV (DVB) way before digital was available to Europe. (And
made significant contrib to DVB standard itself). Although digital satellite
in the USA slightly predatd this, Naspers / MIH technology had HD and MPEG2
deployed before even the USA -- and they deployed it to Africa first.

(Though this seems a trivial example in the greater scheme of things, it
should illustrate the contrast between the economic argument -- and the
ability to pull off something of this magnitude).

This is just one example where I have on occasion overheard Europeans complain
how South Africa often seemed to get cool technologies before they did.

But there are countless others of various sizes -- e.g. Dimension Data ($1.4bn
market cap, also listed on LSE but based in Jhb), Omnipless which had firm
grip on Inmarsat terminal antenna market & sold to a UK concern, etc etc.

------
wumi
assuming that a 19-year-old in a dormroom with two or three friends created
Facebook, why does it matter what the status of 56 nations/territories are if
only two or three single-minded hackers create something people want?

if there is enough infrastructure for any African bloggers or hackers, then
there is enough to create a "Google, Facebook, or Microsoft"

why can't an African "make something people want?" (I didn't realize this was
location dependent)

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LostInTheWoods
The short answer is no. Google, Microsoft, Apple. (Does Facebook deserve to be
listed here?). These are huge multinational companies that require huge
educated talent pools simply to exist. But thats just one reason. The real
question is why is the U.S. such fertile ground for companies like these.

~~~
pcc
These may be huge multinationals now, but they were not so at the beginning. I
guess the question of "can they produce companies" is really (at least) 2
questions: the one pertaining to the initial creation itself of something like
a Google, the other to surviving long enough and growing to become what
something like Google is today.

Arguably surviving and growing is "cheaper" in the USA than Africa -- but that
doesn't make it impossible in Africa.

I don't know that the "huge multinational" argument to sustaining growth,
really holds water. By definition, a multinational has to rely on talent pools
in multiple countries -- so does it really matter then where the multinational
originated?

Consider eg Naspers (mentioned elsewhere) which is a multinational in various
of its interests, such as internet access, mobile phone networks and Pay TV.
In fact, last time I looked (which was 5 yrs ago), their Pay TV interests was
the fastest growing pay TV operation in the world, with interests everywhere
including the USA (in fact it owned OpenTV for a while there, which it sold
prior to embedded linux getting a foothold).

An interesting comment from a gent at Naspers to me once, was that their
experience with operating in the USA suggested that if Africans attempt to
open offices / businesses there directly, this tends not to work nearly as
well as purchasing an American company and essentially creating the impression
to the casual observer that the business is in fact American.

------
eyedol
We surely can. It a matter of we sitting and deciding what product we can come
out that best fit and solves most of our continent problems. If african
hackers can come together, certainly sure we can be giants like Google,
Facebook or Microsoft. Take a look at this post, it tells you we're getting
somewhere. <http://whiteafrican.com/?p=992>

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pcc
OK so there's been some discussion here on the second sentence ("can they
produce..."), but maybe its also worth zooming in on the first sentence: are
there hackers in africa and other 3rd world countries?

Here is an article from the IEEE Spectrum, titled "The African Hacker":
<http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/aug05/1699>

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slim
I am from Tunisia (north Africa). I did <http://markkit.net> and it will be
the next google.

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josefresco
I suspect when you mentioned "Africa" you didn't mean
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa> ?

SA is pretty modern, stable and has some money (middle income) although it is
not free from problems (like any country)

------
siculars
i would say decidedly not. a lot of ink has been spilled regarding silicon
valleys ascent to its cemented position as the number one place to start a
high tech. likewise, people question why silicon valley has excelled over
other places in the us (boston, new york, austin, etc.) then broaden the your
net and include europe, russia, israel, brazil and asia and you have to
conclude that the last place it will happen is in africa.

i think africa has to get the basics down first. then we'll see. by no means
am i saying that they lack the individual brilliance. in short, what they lack
is the institutionalized backing of a solid higher education system, vc and,
oh ya, general infrastructure (transport, food, electricity,
telecommunications, security, etc.)

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solost
I know Egyptians in Egypt who have the skills and know how, so I would say
yes. I out source tech work their instead of India these days because the
value of the work coming out of their group is exceptional and the
documentation is extremely accurate.

------
jamescoops
Mxit.co.za is probably the worlds most successful mobile social network in
terms of getting critical mass

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binarycheese
Internet connection is too high in most developing countries (let alone high
speed internet). - thus a major drawback.

Sometimes, I just feel like cancer could have been cured 100% but the kid who
was suppose to cure it was born in the wrong country ... (e.g. Iraq)

~~~
aitoehigie
I guess you mean Internet conection costs being too high, also 3rd world
countries are mostly beset with war, hunger and famine, with little or no
basic infrastructure, so would be hackers would find it extremely hard
becoming hackers.

~~~
soyapi
I don't think hunger and war are a major problem to hackers actually. I thik
war-tone countries are a minority in Africa and only affect rural people who
are a majority and obviously non-hackers. I'm a hacker in Malawi and have
never experienced war or hunger but that's because I'm a minority living in
city.

Internet connection yes. Most hackers in Africa have internet access at work
only where they work on custom enterprise software or general IT (non-
programming) jobs and have to code hacker-interesting stuff off-line at home
(if they have a computer) or evenings and weekends at work.

------
LaTtEX
I'm certain Africans (the people) can do it, but probably just in South Africa
(which is most stable) and certainly not in the Sudan, Ghana, Zimbabwe (which
ironically is inside ZA), Nigeria or all the other countries (almost all?)
with social unrest.

~~~
pcc
Zimbabwe is not inside SA (its also bordered by Botswana, Zambia and
Mozambique). But even if it were, would this not be a bit like Canada being
"inside" the USA?

Anyway, by extension of this logic, then also places like Israel, Palestine,
and even (in the not too distant past) Ireland, should not be expected to be
candidates for such developments either.

I echo the sentiment from elsewhere, that if a few guys in a dorm room could
hack together a facebook -- then that dorm room could be situated anywhere in
the world (including, say Ghana). And by running on AWS or AppEngine (say),
infrastructure is largely isolated from country-specific stability concerns.
In fact, users probably won't know or care where the HQ is, and nothing stops
any organization from procuring expertise in whatever country it needs to
further its aims.

This seems to address the first part of what is necessary. For the second part
-- growing the business -- no argument this is more tricky from places like
Africa, because of perception issues, African VCs largely being focussed on
the largest deal sizes possible (e.g. putting up a mobile phone network), etc.
etc. From this perspective, Africans look at Silicon Valley and think how
"easy" it all appears. Some move their operations, and do really well. Others
find creative ways around -- like Thawte for example (for the growth question
& VC environment for small growing tech companies, in my opinion, there is not
much difference between SA and the rest of Africa).

But for the most part, many Africans seem to be happy to build solutions for
themselves, and don't immediately expect the rest of the world to be
interested. From my experience, the main reason for this is physical distance
-- many Africans just don't get to talk to people from the USA and Europe on a
regular basis to realise there may be broader appeal, and so in many cases you
just don't see a drive to want to scale something up to the size of Google.

There is also an implicit belief by many Africans that they are simply not
capable of doing something like this. People like Mark Shuttleworth have gone
to a lot of effort in Africa to try and address this perception.

Africans hold to a principle of shared humanity -- which is called Ubuntu
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_%28philosophy%29>). Interesting the
resonance with open source principles here. It is not a coincidence that Mark
Shuttleworth's Ubuntu Linux carries this name.

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afri-silicon
Yea, google-type/like giants can come out of africa. Just try a
Y-combinator/africa (centred in Nairobi) and you'll see. HONESTLY.

~~~
aitoehigie
are you saying that Y-combinator is now in nairobi, kenya? i thought that the
country recently had some election crisis? so how stable is it?

