
Ten $50,000 grants for startups who move to St. Louis - vnchr
http://archgrants.org/competition/
======
jws
Things to know about St. Louis:

The City of St. Louis is a separate entity from St. Louis county. When I last
checked the employee map for a 150 engineer software company, there were two
employees living in the City of St. Louis, (a receptionist, and a newly
divorced man in an apartment) the remainder where in St. Louis County, St.
Charles County, and living on the "east side" in Illinois (but far enough to
clear East St. Louis).

The City of St. Louis has a 1% payroll tax for people that work in the city,
plus another 1% for people that live in the city. That may not be important
for a startup, but if you are looking to long term employ a lot of highly paid
people you have to ask yourself if you want an extra 2% margin or not.

There has been a fair amount of redevelopment in the city itself in recent
years, and probably a large amount to come, so you can find a nice place. Make
sure to check for a grocery store nearby. Public transit is next to useless.
Prepare to drive.

The radial highways in and out of the city are in pretty good shape these
days. Check the actually commute times, but 20 miles in 30 minutes wouldn't be
outrageous.

~~~
tptacek
St Louis has a city income tax?!

~~~
chrisamiller
1% earnings tax if you either live in the city or work in the city. (If you
both live and work in the city, it's still 1%)

Frankly, I don't mind paying it. The city is entering a tricky time where it's
got some momentum going with a lot of young people, a up-and-coming arts
scene, more and more local businesses. If it puts the money to good use,
there's hope for revitalizing the city core.

~~~
jacques_chester
It's not the rate that is unattractive. It's having to deal with yet _another_
income tax bureaucracy.

~~~
jws
Fear not. Your payroll company takes care of it. There are no forms for
employees.

------
tptacek
I wonder whether groups like this hadn't ought to stop doing grant/investment
programs like this. You can't just buy a startup community, at least not for
any amount we've seen spent to date. It has to grow organically.

What seems likely to happen here is that adverse selection will allocate these
grants to companies with poorer prospects than the total pool of startups,
thus creating a track record of failure for the area.

Maybe a better approach would be to offer the grants to _any_ startup
nationwide, with the proviso that they employ N people in STL.

~~~
jpdoctor
> _You can't just buy a startup community_

I don't know that I've seen it attempted before.

More generally, I think this is a very interesting development. As developers
move into the cloud, staying in places like silicon valley requires a burn
that might not be necessary.

Verrry interesting.

~~~
wheels
There have been a lot of places that have tried it recently. There have been
startup "accelerators" and seed funding thingers in non-hub cities popping up
like wildfire. I know of programs that have run in Toronto, DC, Chicago,
Atlanta, Edinburgh, Santiago and there are many others that I've forgotten.
Some of those had public funding.

I think the key bit in tptacek's comment is, "not for any amount we've seen
spent to date". You probably could buy a startup scene. But not for a
laughable $500k. Both pg and Brad Feld have written on such. The gist, from
memory, is that it'd take a whole lot more money and a couple decades.

~~~
Rariel
What program like this exists in DC?

~~~
wheels
LaunchBox Digital started there, then moved to Durham, then moved back to
traditional angel investing. In fact, most of the programs that I listed above
at this point are defunct, which was kind of what I was getting at.

------
untog
A slight aside, but I'm seeing a lot of comments about how the cash isn't
really enough to tempt people. They're probably correct.

You know what I'd love to see? States being able to set their own special
immigration policies. I live in New York and am very happy here, but it's very
difficult to create my own startup because I'm on a restrictive work visa.

However, if St. Louis had the ability to request a special exclusion for
foreign nationals to create a startup in their city, you'd better believe I
would be looking at it very closely. From talking to other people in similar
situations, I doubt I'd be alone.

(Of course, if St. Louis had the power to do this then I suspect NYC would as
well- and Bloomberg is a very vocal supporter of immigration reform. But
still...)

------
tazzy531
St. Louis has the wrong understanding of the problem. Money isn't the solution
to building a tech community. Funding isn't usually the issue in getting a
startup off the ground.

The development of the tech community is how you entice entrepreneurs and
technologists to your area. Entrepreneurs and developers flock to where there
is a community of like minded individuals. Build the community and the people
will come. Once the people come, the capital will come.

Look at what NYC is doing. They are building a tech community that rivals
Silicon Valley out of the ashes of former investment banking software
engineers. The city government is actively supporting groups like New York
Tech Meetup and General Assembly. They are nurturing the tech community and
encouraging them to grow roots in the city.

St. Louis needs to work on this rather than just throw money at the problem.

~~~
andrewcooke
I was trying to work out where people stood on SOPA to get some idea of how
much they understand internet startups. But I don't understand enough about
Americna politics to get very far - all I have is that the Senator for
Missouri, Claire McCaskill, was a SOPA co-sponsor.

How do congress-people fit into this? There seem to be lots more of them...

~~~
philwelch
There's two "houses", the House of Representatives and the Senate. The Senate
contains two Senators per state, the House of Representatives contains over
400 representatives, each of whom individually represents a "district" that
can range in size from part of a large city to an entire state--the goal is to
have at least one district per state, but for each district to have roughly
equal population.

So Missouri actually has two senators, McCaskill and Roy Blunt. "Congressmen"
are usually members of the House of Representatives, and a state might have
anywhere between 1 and about 50 or so.

For legislation to pass, it has to be passed by both houses and signed by the
President, who's elected separately. If the President vetoes it, both houses
can pass it over his head with a 2/3 majority. Constitutional amendments
require a 2/3 majority and then some. And it's not like a parliamentary system
where the whole party always votes the same way. The House in particular has
often attracted idiosyncratic candidates who can only get elected in their
particular district, and almost never vote with their party--guys like Ron
Paul, James Traficant, and Zell Miller. Though of the three, only Ron Paul is
still in office, and he's retiring soon.

The House and the Senate have different rules and regulations and traditions,
and each can do things the other can't, but that's basically how it works.

------
2mur
I hate writing this comment because I actually have a lot of warm feelings
about St. Louis. I grew up there and went to college + medical school there
(until I was about 25). Then I left.

I always say that St. Louis is a nice place to be from. It's a nice place to
raise a family. But I'm never going to move back. Or under extreme protest if
my wife decides she wants to move back to be by family. There's just nothing
_interesting_ about St. Louis. White flight ruined the city in the sixties and
highway 70 divides the majority black population (north) from the majority
white population (south). So it's basically a segregated suburbia wrapped
around a lifeless inner core. No one lives in the city. They drive there to
work, drink and watch sports. Period.

I certainly wouldn't want to start a tech company there.

~~~
natesm
> They drive there to ... drink

Well, that's a little terrifying.

~~~
ktsmith
Downtown has Laclede's landing, Busch Stadium, the James Edwards Dome, Scott
Trade Center etc. There's other places that I'm forgetting, but that's a draw
to down town for nights and weekends if you are into sports, drinking, and
live music. I lived downtown while I was there and everyone I knew and worked
with lived outside of the city and would drive in for work/events. I was only
there for a couple of years over a decade ago so some of it has probably
changed but I doubt it. It is probably one of the last places I would consider
for a company and it's one of the few places I have no real desire to go back
to.

------
alexholehouse
Bizarrely, I got back from St. Louis last on Saturday after going for PhD
interviews. Regarding St. Louis as a whole, I think this article has some
interesting points;

[http://www.forbes.com/sites/marketshare/2011/12/06/st-
louis-...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/marketshare/2011/12/06/st-louis-doesnt-
suck/)

As for St. Louis as a tech start up location, I know there's a growing biotech
scene bubbling up. St. Louis actually has the highest concentration of plant
scientists in the world, and both Monsanto and WashU really pioneering some
pretty incredible crop research.

Similarly, WashU is doing some truly extraordinary biomedical research, such
as the newly opened Genomic and Pathology Services, where physicians from
around the US can send cancer tissue samples to have genomic data read for
prognostic and diagnostic purposes (<http://www.gps.wustl.edu/>).

To help catalyze the biotech spirit, the university offers a biotech
Entrepreneurship pathway integrated with its biomedical/biological sciences
PhD program which runs joint with the business
school.([http://dbbs.wustl.edu/curstudents/SpecialEmphasisPathways/Pa...](http://dbbs.wustl.edu/curstudents/SpecialEmphasisPathways/Pages/KauffmanPathway.aspx)).

All that said and done, I can't imagine _moving_ a tech start-up to STL. It
seems like a company might organically grow out of existing work...

~~~
vnchr
I think they'll provide some grants to companies in town, but it is primarily
(as I understand) meant to attract from outside.

------
palish
EDIT: Post removed. I truly apologize for offending you. I don't like the idea
of making people unhappy, so I've removed my post.

~~~
jeffool
I opened this page a while back, just read this post, then refreshed to look
for new discussion. Now it's gone.

A) I've never been, but a good friend came from there. He was back and forth
on the quality of St. Louis, but he's a damn smart guy. That said, he's not
there anymore.

2) Consider that your post was chided in the comments, but it wasn't being
downvoted. That's how you know if you're facing disapproval versus loud
conversation.

Lastly) The problem of finding no compatriots is not a unique one. I face the
same problem where I live, rural Georgia. But it's not a matter of no one here
being worth knowing, it's just a matter of getting to know the right people in
the appropriate context. That's harder to do sometimes. And it's not a problem
easily solved for everyone. Your post did come off as angry, but I'm not going
to judge the validity of that anger. Just know that, well, like I said. It's
not unique. Many people feel that way, many of whom are right and wrong about
their situation. Realize that if you assume the outcome (that no one there is
worth knowing) then you may be looking at the wrong problem (how to meet them)
and just become jaded that you never see the solution.

~~~
palish
_Realize that if you assume the outcome (that no one there is worth knowing)
then you may be looking at the wrong problem (how to meet them) and just
become jaded that you never see the solution._

Agreed -- that was primarily why I redacted myself. I was being an idiot.

It would be pretty amusing to walk around the local campuses aimlessly
repeating "Hi I'm Shawn, I'm looking for someone who thinks Quantum Mechanics
is cool!" ... maybe it would even work. Who knows.

------
sachingulaya
"Your business model, including 3- or 5-year financial projections that
include sales, profits, cash flows, and returns on investment."

How can anyone reasonably predict where their N-month old company is going to
be in 3-5 years?

~~~
firefoxman1
Well, if you've ever had to write a business plan, you'll agree the
projections for a startup end up being complete BS, but they make investors
feel safe looking at a 20+ page document with lots of charts and numbers.

That said, business plans can be useful and help the founders solidify their
business model, predict costs, etc. If anything, it helps you get a vague idea
of what to expect a few years down the road instead of just the next 60 days.

~~~
mhartl
_business plans can be useful and help the founders solidify their business
model, predict costs, etc._

I would guess the vast majority of tech entrepreneurs would disagree with the
implication that business plans are generally useful.

~~~
firefoxman1
Haha is that a stab at the "worry about the business model later" attitude in
tech, or am I interpreting it wrong?

~~~
mhartl
No, I'm being serious. Thinking about your business model is useful, and
planning is useful, but the formal practice of writing an official "business
plan" (with revenue projections, etc.) is from a bygone era. More than
anything, business plans give people (in this case, Arch Grants) a false sense
of security.

~~~
firefoxman1
Oh yes I completely agree. New industries move too fast to predict their
profitability. I think the resume will go the way of the business model in our
lifetime, if not 10 years.

~~~
mhartl
You nailed it. Doing the traditional resume-and-interview grind is OK if
you're just getting started, but as soon as possible you should be building
and using your personal network. If after gaining some experience you need a
resume to get a job, you're probably doing it wrong.

------
philwelch
The overwhelming tone I'm getting from the comments defending STL here are
along the lines of "come on, St. Louis isn't _that_ bad, and at least it's
cheap". Which is quite different from the sales pitch you get for Silicon
Valley, which is "everything you could possibly need is right here". The
choice between "not _that_ bad" and "actively helpful" is obvious.

------
vnchr
Hi guys, I posted this just to see if there'd be a reaction--and wow, there
has been. I do some community organizing in the startup scene (see
StartLouis.com) in addition to some work with startup legal, funding and
incubating. I'll get the Executive Director Sarah Spear to more directly
comment to the HN community about this. Also, I'm pretty well informed now on
what's going on with this initiative and related ones. Hit me up for
questions.

Finally, please know that St. Louis, like any other place, contains diverse
people with diverse goals. I have my own combination of concerns and
confidence regarding Arch Grants. But bottom-line, it's a good thing and not a
bad one. I'd love to chat about the concerns too. There's plenty of legit ones
out there :)

------
anrope
It is a bit of a chicken-or-the-egg type problem.

Best case, 10 startups pop up all at once as a result of these grants, and
more follow. I think this is actually a reasonably good try at jump-starting a
startup culture.

The nice thing about a web startup is that, aside from "culture" and
government regulations, there aren't really any reasons you couldn't run your
startup out of a cabin in remote Alaska with a satellite internet connection.

Of course, it does go deeper than just an initial seed. There also needs to be
a government with policies that won't restrict the growth of startups.

For all the complaining in Maine about college graduates leaving the state, I
would love to see them try something like this.

------
rkalla
A lot of good information in this thread; the only bit I would add is that
this is a grant and not standard equity-trade funding like you would find the
valley.

So $50k in cash as opposed to $50k of investment for 33% of your company can
be two very different things.

FWIW, half my family is from STL and there is definitely a difference in
culture between the west coast and mid-west.

------
athst
They've basically structured it as a business plan competition, not a startup
competition. Not sure what kind of businesses they were looking to attract
with this, but it doesn't seem very well suited to what we tend to think of as
a "startup."

~~~
vnchr
Agreed... It is based on the format of a BPC. The guys writing the checks are
old school, old money ;)

I've talked to them about next year incorporating Lean Methodology. Executive
Director is open to it, but for now, they're off and running with plenty to
do.

------
allard
If you're interested in moving to Saint Louis (or already there), and if you
need a house, and if you are one or two, I have quite a place for sale in its
best neighborhood. Comes with a great workspace.

Contact via profile here.

------
ChrisNorstrom
Honestly...

I've lived in St. Louis my whole life (other than collage) and recently went
to Startup Weekend St. Louis as well as php and code till dawn meetups. I know
only a few people, angel investors from Startup Weekend, community organizers
and others who are really trying very hard to get something started here. But
it's a very VERY tiny tech community. However, there are angel investors,
mentors, startup weekends, and The Founders Institute just came to town so
you'll probably get lots of attention. I call these passionate people "Queen
Bees" because they are very generous and dedicated to turning St. Louis into a
tech center.

However, the problem I see over and over again in St. louis is are the lack of
"Worker bees". These are the people that actually build companies and startups
and do the work. There are very very few of them. And that is where the flaw
of the St. Louis startup scene becomes very apparent. The Queen Bees here like
the Arch Angels, Jay Delong, Brian Blanchard, Israel Vickers, & dozens of
other community organizers are the warmest people you'll meet. They are
amazing. They really want to lead this kingdom towards glory but for this
whole "Tech Scene" to work there have to be worker bees and that's exactly
what St. Louis is missing. It's like trying to build a Craigslist for
Antarctica, or trying to build a Farmers Market in Death Valley Arizona.

So in the event that your startup does grow, good luck finding talent. The
mentality here is different. I went to PHP meetups a few times a while ago and
the developers there literally didn't give a single "fuck" about any startup
ideas, from anyone. They'd gather up every month, talk about stupid shit that
"happened this one time..." then at the end ask each other what they should do
the next meetup because chit chatting is boring. The idea that they could work
on a startup that could change the world is completely over their head. They
are oblivious to their own possible greatness.

$50,000 grant for startups is a great deal for people who already live in St.
Louis but a terrible deal for people who have a chance to move to the Bay
Area. Getting a startup off the ground is hard enough, why make it harder by
moving to a place where you have less oportunity and less people to make it
happen?

In the end you need to do what's best for YOUR startup and YOUR idea, not
what's best for St. Louis. A startup is like a child you are raising, and if
you want the best for your child, you pack your bags and move to an area with
better schools, less crime, and better collages. Depending on the situation,
the best place for your child and most startups is Silicon Valley. People who
try to convince themselves otherwise are the type of people who either don't
have the balls to move (like me), or are emotionally attached to their city
(New Yorkers, Seattleans), or don't have the funds to move. There's lots of
stories of people outside the valley making it but I bet you if they moved to
the bay area they would have made it farther and faster than in their home
town. Silicon valley is not a "place" but a certain type of "people". They are
very intelligent, not always educated, bat shit crazy and hell bent on
building something great. And Silicon Valley is FULL of them. They will fuel
your startup's success faster and better than anyone else can.

So if you're young and able to move, go to the Bay Area, if you're stuck in
New York or St. Louis or Seattle because of family or emotional reasons. By
all means take advantage of these deals and try to give back to the community
so you can help others who are stuck in their home town too. BTW, check out
the St. louis "code till dawn" meetup group for really chilled authentic
developers.

I myself desperately want to move to San Jose. I need to do it, but I'm an
overly emotional Atheist and also cannot have kids. Basically, I will never
raise a family of my own so the one I have now is the last biological family
I'll ever have and I don't want to let them go. If my parents were to pass
away while I was gone out west, I'd never forgive myself. To me there's no
afterlife so you have to love those around you as much as you can while they
are alive because there's no second chances after that. Emotionally, I think
I'm stuck in St. Louis for a while... ;_;

~~~
Eliezer
Goal-factoring alert! If videoconferencing technology becomes sufficiently
advanced or your parents sign up for cryonics, does that mean you can move to
the Bay Area? Have you considered asking your parents if they would rather
live in the Bay Area?

~~~
ChrisNorstrom
lol. My dream is to move them out there. This year my little brother graduates
so I'm going to try it.

------
mvkel
To me, this is like paying students to attend class.

~~~
ArchGrants
This is the last comment I noticed on this post so I'm going to address it.
Full disclosure: I'm the aforementioned Exec Director of Arch Grants so I'm a
tad bit biased. In an effort to enhance St. Louis' entrepreneurial ecosystem,
Arch Grants is awarding $50k + immense support services (free legal and
accounting services, reduced commercial and residential rent, business
mentoring, access to university support, etc.) to startups. Like Israel
pointed out, there are challenges with the model that we're addressing but
perhaps more importantly, we're asking ourselves, "can we attract tomorrow's
entrepreneurs to St. Louis by providing unencumbered grant funding?" Your
comment hints at the fact that entrepreneurs will be doing what they do best,
whether we fund them or not, similar to how students have to attend class
anyway. As we see it, why not throw our support behind those entrepreneurs and
fund their efforts in hopes that the funding leads to successful companies?

------
medusa666
I'm not sure that STL is a very desirable or interesting location for
immigrants, particularly non-white immigrants, who are a backbone of Silicon
Valley.

~~~
ArchGrants
Hmm, I moved here in October from the Northeast. I was (pleasantly) surprised
by the diversity in STL and that doesn't just mean great ethnic restaurants,
though large immigrant and refugee communities have resulted in some great
eateries. This is a city focused on embracing diversity. There are countless
individuals solely focused on multicultural initiatives within the government
and within civic organizations. Arch Grants is one of those groups that seeks
to embrace a multicultural pool of applicants and award recipients because we
want the startups we fund to reflect the diversity of St. Louis that is
thriving especially within the startup community.

