

Modern science and Chinese philosophy tell us similar stories about how we think - dnetesn
http://prime.nautil.us/issue/22/slow/trying-not-to-try

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jhedwards
I studied this idea extensively while getting my master's in Chinese lit.
While I think this article is interesting, in my opinion it kind of misses the
point about wu-wei.

Many Chinese texts admonish total focus and dedication to a task. The idea is
that if you obsess over developing some skill for a long time you will
eventually be able to do it without thinking, and when that happens your
creative impulses will guide you instead of your thoughts. For example after
coding a lot you stop worrying about syntax and can consider design principles
instead. It's not that Pao Ding was a master of meditation, it's just that he
spent his whole life cutting up oxen.

When that author says "We have been taught to believe that the best way to
achieve our goals is to reason about them carefully and strive consciously to
reach them. But Butcher Ding’s story—and the science that’s beginning to back
it up—shows us that many desirable states are best pursued indirectly." I
think he's setting up a false opposition: the road to unconscious mastery is
paved with relentless conscious effort and lots of careful reasoning.

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comex
Semi-OT: I find it somewhat striking about the state of neuroscience, though
of course unsurprising, that Chinese philosophy is _capable_ of telling us
something about ourselves that isn't unrecognizably exceeded and elaborated on
today. Sure, now we can point to general regions containing billions of
neurons and determine that it plays a role in conflict resolution; and we know
a fair menagerie of molecules that modify consciousness in predictable ways,
though nobody fully understands the mechanisms; and modern behavioral
experiments have produced a lot of interesting data about psychology. But just
for a second, compare to the situation with, say, traditional Chinese medicine
versus modern medicine. A situation where we have multiple orders of magnitude
better understanding today, and the _only_ thing the traditional way has going
for it is that it's had quite a lot of time to gather empirical data.
Traditional medicine may sometimes produce effective treatments (along with a
huge amount of snake oil placebo), but it's essentially dumb luck combined
with a semi-effective selection process, whereas modern medicine, though far
from perfect, creates and proposes treatments on a drastically more detailed,
and essentially rational and correct basis.

How long will it be (if ever) before we can say the same about neuroscience?

How will the world change then?

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collyw
These principles are very similar to those of the Alexander Technique. Its
hard to describe because it deals with a subtlety that you aren't normally
aware of, and so language around it is very vague (it often gets dismissed as
wishy washy crap because of that). Its good to see some science that backs up
the ideas.

[http://heatherstegmaier.com/blog/2013/9/27/ask-and-you-
shall...](http://heatherstegmaier.com/blog/2013/9/27/ask-and-you-shall-
receive-non-doing-and-the-alexander-techni.html)

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cJ0th
I have read about this principle under a lot of different names. What I do not
get is how it is supposed to work if there is nothing in our "personal ROM"
that our "system" can restore.

The example in that article about relaxing makes sense to me. Early in life we
probably were relaxed and thus deep inside we know, what being relaxed means
and our body finds a way to restore this state. But how is this principle
supposed to work if the data for the state you desire is not there in the
first place?

For instance, how do you learn Karate if you spent your whole life being a
non-physical person? I took lessons for about a year and I hardly improved.
The teacher suggests to "stop thinking". That may be reasonable if acitivities
in recent years subdued your knowledge on movement but otherwise I don't
understand how this is supposed to work. For example, I never knew and still
don't know how to make an effective punch.

Another area where I don't know how to apply this principle is studying. I
sometimes catch myself re-reading a passage many times as it doesn't make
sense to me. This is clearly "doing" in an obsessive way and the result is
poor. But how is learning by "not doing" supossed to work? Just reading a text
without constantly analyzing it on purpose doesn't lead to success either.

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collyw
Like I say its very subtle (and difficult to describe), and "not doing" is
different from actively trying to do something in a different way. A lot of
the teaching is just about slowing down and watching what you are doing (and
what happens automatically).

For example, try squatting but keeping your heels on the floor. You will
likely not be able to do it. Now if you could lie on your back, with feet on
the floor and get someone to raise the rest of your body to a squat position,
then it would probably happen. The action of squatting will trigger lots of
habitual muscular responses that your brain didn't specifically ask for. If
you are put in that position from a non conventional way, the muscles raising
your heels won't be triggered.

Or a basic example. Stand straight and look ahead. Now imagine that you are in
the start up line for 100m sprint. Now really try to imagine you are there.
Now check your legs. Is there tension in one of them, ready to sprint off? Did
you consciously do that?

The lessons explore these habitual responses, so that once you recognise them
you have the choice to carry on habitually, or do something in a new way.

As I say, its difficult to describe.

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qrybam
What people call being "in the zone" or "flow" is a generally interesting
state of being. Everyone experiences this oneness multiple times in their
lives, usually without realising it. Sportsmen and people who have highly
developed skill sets (like programmers) hit this state of mind more often and
many train specifically to get themselves into this state on demand. You can
also reach this state via meditation or prayer.

I look forward to more results coming from this area of research.

