
California is ready to recognize a third gender - anigbrowl
https://www.buzzfeed.com/jtes/california-non-binary-gender-identity-recognition?utm_term=.oaYYavdJ0z&ref=mobile_share#.daXORx6oyK
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GuiA
Is there a reason why gender is so important to demographics/government bodies
in general? What would be the downsides of just not caring at all about this
information, just like we don't care at all about so many other pieces of
information that people consider a core part of their identity?

Given how complicated the biological reality of it all is (see [0]), why try
to model it at all? This seems like a case where we desperately try to make
neat categories for the data to fit because we really like having neatly
defined labels for everything, even though it just ends up more confusing in
the end.

Curious to hear any thoughts on this.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex)

~~~
anigbrowl
Here's a reason it's very important to me (and thus part of why I submitted
it): my whole life, people have expressed confusion about whether I was male
or female, regardless of how I was dressed or attempting to present at the
time. I'm biologically male (in terms of plumbing; I have no idea about my
genetics) but it doesn't matter whether I've been a long-haired hippy, or
wearing a conservative haircut and dressed in a business suit. One time I went
into a menswear store to purchase a tie, while wearing a suit and carrying my
briefcase (I worked for a very conservative accountancy firm at the time), and
the salesperson asked 'can I help you madam?' with no trace of mockery or
irony. Even at times when I've had a beard people had questioned whether I was
a woman transitioning to a man or a lesbian in drag.

Episodes like that are harmless and often amusing, but people's confusion
frequently manifests in more negative ways. I've really lost count of the
times people have come up to me on public transit or crossed the street not
just to ask, but to _demand_ that I dispel their confusion about whether I was
male or female. I'm not a flamboyant or extroverted person that dresses in
flashy clothes or engages in provocative behavior, and often my inability to
give a clear answer on demand was the result of startlement as much as
disinclination. On maybe 10 different occasions I've been physically attacked,
without warning or provocation, and not because of being in some atypical
environment like a nightclub with drunken patrons, but in broad daylight just
walking down the street.

As regards my unwillingness to state this, it's not rooted in politics or
anything like that. I grew up in quite a conservative environment, but from a
very young age I was conscious of not being like other boys, or wanting to be.
Of course I was subject to a lot of homophobic slurs in school, but this never
bothered my too much - partly because I'm not homosexual and partly because it
was so long ago (I'm 46) and in a conservative place (the west of Ireland)
that I wasn't aware of homosexuality or any homosexual people and so didn't
have any strong opinions about it as a child. Int he 1980s I became more aware
of it from television and shifts in the cultural landscape and as soon as I
was old enough I lit out for London. Though I joked with my first girlfriend
about me being a lesbian, I really didn't have any reference points for my
gender ambiguity, and not being homosexual I never got very involved in that
social scene. I'm not transgender either - I thought seriously about the idea
and researched it as I gradually became aware of the issue, but that didn't
seem like the right fit either and since I like sex I didn't want to take on
the risks of sexual reassignment surgery in case it messed up my ability to
enjoy that.

So I was resigned to just being a sort of in-between unclassifiable person. I
can't do anything about the shape of my face or my body type (I'm 5'8" and 125
pounds despite being very fit and able to lift my own body weight). Most
clothes I buy require alteration to fit properly, so for the last few years
I've just given up and wear stretchy ygoa garments the whole time. I always
identified as male for bureaucratic administrative purposes because it was
just simpler and easier, and trying to to explain my personal oddity to bored
bureaucrats simply didn't seem worth the effort. It was rather depressing and
psychically exhausting, but I just accepted it as my bad luck, to the point of
not even bothering to bring it up with psychiatrists I've consulted for
depression or other problems. I'm not that gregarious so I've never been part
of a social scene where there were a lot of peers to discuss it with, and up
to today I've only discussed it any detail with maybe 5 people in my whole
life.

I had no awareness of this pending legislation and just sumbled across it
today by chance, but after picking my jaw off the floor I immedaitely
contacted my state senator and asked her to support it (and if you live in
California, I'd be very grateful if you'd take 5 minutes to do the same:
[http://www.ca.gov/Agencies/Secretary-of-State/Agency-
Service...](http://www.ca.gov/Agencies/Secretary-of-State/Agency-
Services/Look-Up-My-Representatives)).

 _This seems like a case where we desperately try to make neat categories for
the data to fit because we really like having neatly defined labels for
everything, even though it just ends up more confusing in the end._

That's ironically amusing to me, having spent my entire life being put into
neat categories when I never asked to be classified as one thing or the other
at all, and derived no measurable benefit from it. If it helps, perhaps you
could think of this proposed new category as equivalent to 'decline to state.'

It won't make that much practical difference in my life - I'll still get
queried on a regular basis and occasionally hassled or assaulted for my
ambiguous appearance, regardless of any choices I make about how to present
myself; again I have no control over my facial features and body type unless I
throw down large sums of money for major cosmetic surgery and hormonal
treatments (in either direction) that I don't want in the first place. But I
would very quite happy to receive some official acknowledgement of how I exist
in the world. I hope this sheds some light on the subject, which I agree is
quite difficult to fathom for the majority of people.

~~~
GuiA
Just to be clear, I absolutely include "male" and "female" in my remark about
making arbitrary categories; my interrogation was concerning why not make it
"decline to state" for everyone by default.

Thank you for taking the time to write and share this.

~~~
anigbrowl
You're welcome. I don't really know the history of how these categories got
formalized, I suppose it goes back to the origin of passports or somesuch. Now
you've gone and piqued my curiosity :-)

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lclarkmichalek
Good. This makes a massive difference to those it affects.

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Jimmie_Rustle
What a waste of time and money for everyone

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influnza
I've always identified myself as non-binary, but I have no problem with
selecting 'female' in questionnaires, because that is what my parts are.
Unless you had a surgery or a genetic disorder (is it possible even?), it is
binary and objective, disregard the feelings. So what is the fuss about? Some
teenagers's hormone freak-out?

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Overtonwindow
...but what about a fourth gender? Or a fifth?

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qrbLPHiKpiux
What is it, "it?"

~~~
anigbrowl
You could read it as both, neither, prefer not to say, or whatever you prefer.
I posted elsewhere on the thread about my own experience, and I don't have
strong preferences about what pronouns people use. Where I grew up the
'singular they' was a common pronoun that existed long before gender politics
were A Thing, as in 'I saw someone walking down the street and then they got
into a car and drove away.' Hope this helps.

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notliketherest
It seems California really has it's priorities together.

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gkoberger
Governments are huge organizations that handle many things, and is full of
many different departments. It's not like someone was going to fix the drought
today but got tied up with this instead.

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lotsoflumens
Very true, but think of all the litter on beach that wasn't collected instead.

