
Ask HN: Does a bootcamp make sense for someone with 20 years experience? - Ididntdothis
I had a conversation this weekend that made me think a little. It was with someone who had just finished a 12 week  bootcamp and had received offers in the range of 100k-150k without much prior experience. I have &gt;20 years experience and at the moment I work at a medical device company making a little more than 150k without much prospect for advancement.<p>I have applied at a few jobs lately but I don&#x27;t have much to show for the currently fashionable technologies and it seems saying &quot;I can catch up in a few weeks&#x2F;months&quot; doesn&#x27;t cut it anymore these days. Being 50 years old doesn&#x27;t help much either probably.<p>I am wondering now if I did a bootcamp myself if that would get me up to speed with current stuff and open up new job opportunities. If people without experience are employable after 12 weeks I think I should do even better because I will understand the material quicker and should be able to go deeper.<p>i work a lot with younger people and I don&#x27;t think the stereotype of young people being innovative and old people being conservative applies to me. Usually I am the one pushing my team to try new stuff and doing creative things.  Unfortunately in medical progress is very slow so you pretty much always are 5-10 years behind state of the art.<p>So  the question is: Would doing a bootcamp increase employability and possible open up higher salary ranges? Are there any that cater to experienced people?  And what area to go into? I would love doing something around AI or large scale systems. Is it possible get a jumpstart there with a bootcamp?<p>Hope this makes sense.<p>PS: Trying too anticipate responses. Usually the advice is to have a network. This used to work for me but the last 10 years it slowly has dwindled because a lot of people left or had to leave the industry in the 2008 crisis.
======
derp_dee_derp
No. Boot camps are for beginners, not people with 20 years experience. Their
existence is a direct response to a lack of qualified candidates and their
sole purpose is to increase the labor supply.

It is a negative to go back to boot camp for you just like it would be a
negative if a research professor went back to junior high.

However, if you could find a position TEACHING at a bootcamp that would be
better.

~~~
rl3
> _However, if you could find a position TEACHING at a bootcamp that would be
> better._

I disagree. From what I've seen of bootcamp instructor postings over the
years, they usually pay terrible, and OP said they're already pulling in over
150k.

It would make more sense for OP to just deep dive on modern JS web stack, or
Rust, or whatever new technology they wish to become proficient in on their
spare time if they must. Side projects are a great excuse to do this. Then
make the career change jump after they're proficient.

~~~
hackermailman
Most I've seen will pay a lot of money for P/T instructors, exactly what Op
should be doing with his massive amounts of experience then working the rest
of the time on some research none of us can understand.

------
seibelj
On the ageism - I feel for you man.

But I recommend not doing one. You are skilled enough that you could dedicate
yourself to 3 to 6 months of serious study of the technologies you are
interested in. Teach yourself by doing projects that interest you, and then
use those projects as evidence of enthusiasm and experience.

Boot camps might be beneficial if you don’t feel capable of teaching yourself,
but they will have so much training-wheels stuff that you are well past so it
will be a mixed bag of value. Plus it costs a lot of money.

I don’t think the fact you did a bootcamp will increase your value much.
Certainly not as much as self study and projects in a public git repo.

~~~
Ididntdothis
I know I could easily study up by myself. I have done this my whole life. I am
just getting the impression that without being credentialed in some way nobody
really would give me a chance. Especially in a new field.

My current job is pretty much repeating the same thing over and over again
with ever tighter deadlines. I am at the same time stressed and bored out of
my mind. There is no intellectual or technical challenge, just always more
pressure. I used to be pretty cutting edge but the last 5 years it was pure
stagnation.

Somehow I want to break out of this but between age and lack of the latest
stuff on the resume it seems it's really difficult to get a foot in the door
somewhere else.

Do people really look at GitHub repos? I have never had anybody ask and I have
never looked myself.

~~~
theworld572
Credentials - in my experience they just aren't a thing in software
development. Apart from juniors just starting out I've never once seen a CV or
a job application that mentioned any kind of programming credentials or
certifications (if I understand you're meaning of "credentials" correctly?).
For getting into a new area of development some ways to prove yourself are:

1\. Contribute to open source codebases

2\. Work on side projects

3\. Convince your existing company to use a new technology so you can work on
it in your day job.

Maybe others? I can't think of anything else right now..

Github profiles can be a bit hit or miss - I think probably most people don't
really look at them. However if you have made meaningful contributions to open
source codebases on github then you can link to those in your CV, or mention
it on your covering letter or just mention it in the interview.

------
rl3
> _... and it seems saying "I can catch up in a few weeks/months" doesn't cut
> it anymore these days. Being 50 years old doesn't help much either
> probably._

A lot of companies have job postings that have wording to the effect of "you
are proficient in xyz or are willing to learn xyz", and I see it often enough
for senior positions. When I see it in the latter case, I view it as an
excellent signal of a chill, mature team.

Like you I believe it should work that way. Barring the most urgent scenarios,
it's largely bullshit to reject senior talent that's capable of deep diving on
new stacks rapidly.

Best of luck to you.

------
theworld572
No, do not do a bootcamp. As others have said bootcamps are for people who
have never coded before. If you want to up-skill and get a job using more
current technologies, then you can self study in the evenings and weekends (if
your circumstances allow for it) or you can quit your job and spend a few
months learning a new technology/platform/language etc. (again, if your
circumstances allow and if you have enough savings to do this). It sounds like
you are itching for a more fast paced (to use a cliche) environment so I would
recommend you start looking at other companies to work for while trying to
learn the skills necessary for those jobs.

That said, if its mainly salary that you're concerned about then 150k is a
pretty good amount. Even in more "trendy" companies - there is a ceiling to
how much developers earn, AFAIK the only way to earn more than ~200k as a
developer is to work for a FAANG company.

Finally, don't think that just because you heard one story about somebody who
got a 150k job straight out of bootcamp that this is the norm. The reality is
most bootcamp grads find it extremely difficult to get a job because there is
so much competition for junior developer roles these days.

------
CyberFonic
In my experience ageism is a real factor. So no matter what's on your resume,
once they see your grey hair, if you have any left, the negativity kicks in.
Of course they won't actually say that, perhaps "too experienced" for the
role? Or looking for skills in a trendier area.

Have you confirmed that people actually end up working for that sort of money
after a 12 week bootcamp? From what I have heard few companies will pay that
much for somebody with only having completed some bootcamp and having minimal
track record. It could all be just marketing spin.

Typically if you want to switch into a new field, then not only would you need
to learn the applicable technologies, but also get some experience. For
example, it is rare that you could pivot your medical device experience to
data science and machine learning and keep earning at least the same or more.

------
codingdave
I can give you my anecdote of a similar situation. I was pigeonholed into a
job using legacy tech a couple years ago. I quit because it was a dead end. I
found a company willing to let me learn modern tools on-the-job, which I did.
That ended up not panning out in the long run because of work/life balance.
But that is when the story gets interesting:

My next job was the old job. I got hired back into the job I quit, but instead
of being stuck on the old tech, I'm working on modernizing multiple old
products, including my own legacy products, into new tech.

It wasn't the original plan, but it ended up being a 12 month sabbatical to
modernize myself.

------
Yhippa
I recommend Udacity or any other type of structured learning. I personally
have a difficult time learning something unless it's in a classroom-type
environment or a virtual classroom.

When I was catching up to development trends bootcamps weren't around. I went
to a ton of Meetups and I didn't understand a lot of what I heard. I'd note
things and research them and hearing certain concepts over and over paid
dividends when I was eventually able to make connections in my head.

------
em-bee
for me to hire someone like you the main question is that you have a good idea
of what you are getting into. without any relevant work experience i'd worry
that you might find that this new field is not for you, and you'd rather do
something else. (i know i can expect you to try your best to keep the job, but
i'd like to know before hiring if you'll enjoy it)

you won't need a bootcamp, but you should at least be familiar with the
territory.

aside from that, try some thinking outside of the box. what other experience
do you have besides programming? what industry knowledge have you gained from
working at a medical device company?

are there any startups where you can use that industry knowledge?

or try freelancing? what are the pain points in the medical device industry?
can you solve them and sell those solutions?

as mentioned, for regular employment 150k is kind of a ceiling. to go beyond
that you need to do something to stand out.

[https://jonathanstark.com/](https://jonathanstark.com/) has some good
arguments about that pay ceiling. it applies to freelancers billing hourly
just as much as it applies to employees because in both cases you are paid for
time. to earn more, you need to break out of that.

------
xemdetia
Are you sure you need a bootcamp? It sounds like you are selling yourself
short and/or not getting job prospects in the right fields. As someone who
recently was reviewing resumes bootcamps are so variable in quality that they
are in the same boat to me as no-name certifications. A bootcamp is just
making the time to spend dedicated effort for you to learn something and it's
only going to give you as much as you put in. If you've spoken to people and
heard success stories it's likely not because they went to the bootcamp but
they used that time effectively- this is the common advice for any of these
short-term career shift sort of programs for any industry.

Are you sure that AI or large scale systems actually exists in the markets you
are looking for? Not all markets support the same industries and as you would
probably know the number of times it's just lip service and held together in
the back with cellotape is still amazingly high. To really get into this sorts
of things you would probably be having to pursue a role labeled as architect
if it wasn't a market where these things were relevant. The kind of job you
are looking for probably isn't being posted in a place you can find it, and I
have found that recruiters are the gatekeepers not any public posting. I
haven't tried cold messaging recruiters of companies I am interested in on
LinkedIn but I think that's probably what I would do, you could also cold
message engineers working in something you find exceptionally interesting.

Try some of the alternative sites like hired.com where it just isn't blindly
submitting resumes.

Are you just interviewing poorly? Is your resume even relevant? I remember
reviewing someone's resume last year that still had Windows 98 as a skill. As
just a general resume trend listing every version of a thing you know is less
popular than listing the types of skills you have and if they want further
details be ready to provide it.

From the salary side are you just capped out for the market? There are
definitely some places where 150k is the ceiling that's very hard to break
without some sort of exceptional relationship with you as an individual and
the employer, or an industry that just happens to command higher salaries. If
you want to get into say 250k town in a 150k market you've got to be doing
something differently than just being a tech lead and trying to climb the
ladder.

A couple weekends to get up to speed so you can talk to the interviewer at the
same level will always do better than 'I can catch up' but in the conversation
it is clear you are missing the big picture. Someone who is living and
breathing the problem but just needs to switch gears to actually apply
themselves to it will go to the top of the stack versus someone who is like
'teach me.' So many people show up to interviews and show only passing
interest in the work to be done and the conversation. Don't be that person.

