
User's Kindle eBook collection revoked by Amazon (2012) - tgvaughan
https://www.bekkelund.net/2012/10/22/outlawed-by-amazon-drm/
======
nicolaslegland
Follow-up, account restored (2012) ([https://www.dailydot.com/unclick/amazon-
linn-nygaard-deleted...](https://www.dailydot.com/unclick/amazon-linn-nygaard-
deleted-account-restored/))

~~~
hairofadog
Thanks for the link. It's worth noting that it was restored without apology or
any explanation whatsoever.

I truly wish the Kindle had more competition.

~~~
Topgamer7
I use a Kobo reader. Its pretty nice actually. I can dump books on it via usb,
or over the network via dropbox. Or use Indigo to buy books.

~~~
latexr
Another happy Kobo user, here. What surprised me most is it keeps getting
updates—improving both the interface and speed—despite being a device from
2012.

But I am also surprised to learn that some software-only features are not
included in updates to older devices. I have a Kobo Glo, and despite having
finished an update less than fifteen minutes ago I don’t have the Dropbox
syncing feature.

~~~
anotherevan
The Dropbox syncing feature appears to only be a feature of the Forma model.

[https://help.kobo.com/hc/en-us/articles/360033830114-Add-
boo...](https://help.kobo.com/hc/en-us/articles/360033830114-Add-books-to-
your-Kobo-Forma-eReader-with-Dropbox)

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vikingcaffiene
I stongly encourage anyone who uses a kindle for reading ebooks to back up
their library via Calibre. If Amazon tried this rediculousness theres still a
way to get all your content back via plugins that can convert them to plain
epub. Unethical? Not if they steal from you first.

~~~
Havoc
Worth pointing out that Amazon is busy killing this route too.

The latest format is to my knowledge currently unbroken - even with suitable
plugins. So only way around is to get an old kindle which doesn’t support the
new encryption and thus falls back on the old encryption

~~~
robk
The old version of the Kindle app for PC works as long as you don't upgrade
it.

~~~
throwanem
Be aware that by default it will be very aggressive about updates; after
installing you immediately need to disable automatic update in settings, and
be wary thereafter of surprise upgrade request prompts at startup and during
usage.

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shadowprofile77
And this is why I immediately strip the DRM protections of any kindle book I
buy from the site, and can then use them on any device or app that handles the
format (or an epub conversion). There's no good reason whatsoever to buy a
digital good and leave it beholden to the sometimes shitty whims of whoever
sold it to you. That's not a purchase or ownership at all. It's just a long
term lease but without a defined expiration date.

~~~
parliament32
>That's not a purchase or ownership at all.

Well no, it's not. You're purchasing a license to consume the content,
conditional on the terms of the license. What gives you the impression you're
buying the book?

~~~
tgvaughan
It's an easy mistake to make when the page for acquiring the license presents
you with a picture of a book and requires you click a button labeled "add to
cart".

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pseingatl
She could file a small claims case, which would get the matter resolved in two
months or so. At the very least she would get a refund for all the books she
purchased. There is probably an arbitration clause somewhere in the shrinkwrap
which would be to her benefit because it would be easier to handle everything
by mail and she doesn't need a lawyer. I am sure there are loads of attorneys
in Seattle who would be happy to take a small claims case for $500.

~~~
ValentineC
I'm guessing that a consequence of a small claims case (maybe even a
chargeback?) would be being permanently blacklisted by Amazon across name,
address, and other identifiers — like what happened to the Kindle owner in the
first place.

~~~
felipemnoa
I don't see how they could blacklist her for enforcing her rights. I imagine
this would be grounds for a lawsuit?

~~~
tjpnz
Taking a company like Amazon to small claims would absolutely result in you
being blacklisted - your rights are null and void as far as they're concerned.
And yes, it is grounds for a lawsuit but at that point you should be talking
to whichever government body is responsible for enforcing consumer
protections.

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Causality1
We need a digital consumer rights law. Companies should not be able to revoke
data or software. Software and hardware that depend on external servers should
carry "expiration date" labels that define the minimum amount of time the
vendor is required to maintain those servers. People should be allowed to run
their own servers for abandonware.

~~~
WorldMaker
We need a long think about digital survivorship: accounts/data should be able
to be escrowed/put into Trusts for future generations. Most terms of service
agreements are between you specifically and the company, and will not survive
you. "Could I gift my account/purchases when I pass to my loved ones?" is
currently "legally and/or technically no" on almost every digital goods
service.

Even if we have mostly given up on the more general "right of first sale" and
"first sale doctrine" on digital goods (that we can resell purchases as
"used"), survivorship should not be forgotten.

------
pikuseru
Relevant related article: [https://www.jacobinmag.com/2013/11/sharecropping-
in-the-clou...](https://www.jacobinmag.com/2013/11/sharecropping-in-the-
cloud/)

Maybe one day there’ll be alternatives, you’ll be able to buy and own books
and read them on devices like the Open Book:

[https://itsfoss.com/open-book/](https://itsfoss.com/open-book/)

In the meantime I’ll be sticking with old paper books.

On the downside they take up a lot of space (but I guess that’s why we have
public libraries, charity shops and second hand book shops.)

On the upside they have a great battery life.

~~~
pikuseru
Ooh color, shiny

[https://pocketbook.cz/cs-cz/catalog/color-screen-
cz/pocketbo...](https://pocketbook.cz/cs-cz/catalog/color-screen-
cz/pocketbook-color-cz)

------
cyxxon
I know this is really old, but I wonder if it has really been decided
completely in all jurisdictions if this is legally ok or not, because on the
German Amazon website the button for ebooks is very clearly labelled with the
German word for "buy", and it is merely labelled as a different format like
hardcover or paperback. There might be legalese buried elsewhere (while
creating the account or activating the Kindle or whatever), but according to
their own words you buy a book in the Kindle format, you do not rent access to
it.

I buy Kindle books all the time, and would love to see this decided in
court...

------
pretzels23
The best way to use Kindle devices is in airplane mode with Calibre. There's
an incredible KFX8 plugin that turns any old non-DRM epub/mobi into the
special format that Kindles use to render the text.

Basically any book can be gotten from libgen. I usually buy books from living
authors, then let those live in the cloud as a backup. I get the pirated
version for personal use. If the author isn't living anymore then I don't buy
it at all.

------
kingtobbe
I still use an old Sony eReader just to stay away from these insane
restrictions. Too bad the Kindle is such a nice piece of hardware though.

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anotherevan
Anything with DRM is not sold, it is leased. My bugbear is that they still
have "Buy Now!" buttons and such, which to my mind is fraud.

I wonder what the reaction would be if it said, "Lease Now!" instead?

------
dang
Massive thread from back then:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4682392](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4682392)

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patchtopic
It's exactly because of this kind of stuff I replaced my kindle with a Kobo
when it wore out.

~~~
tgvaughan
Me too. Although it's worth noting that just buying a Kobo and using the
associated store doesn't save you from this kind of thing in principle. While
the books are formatted using epub, they're encrypted using Adobe's DRM
system, meaning you need an account with Adobe which can be similarly revoked.
Unless you're only ever reading books in the public domain, it's very hard to
protect yourself from this nonsense without breaking the law in some way.

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davidg109
Disturbing. Sounds like legal enforcement is once again required to spank
these companies.

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null621
As a user commented, this is a very old event and she did get her collection
back.

It is an important point that you do not own the actual book file, but the
right to read it, which is fragile.

I don't feel like investing my money without extracting the book files.

~~~
Vorh
I strip DRM off all of my books. As long as the publisher gets paid I don't
feel guilty.

~~~
holtalanm
> As long as the publisher gets paid I don't feel guilty.

no one should feel guilty about stripping DRM from things they rightfully paid
for.

------
joris_w
Isn't this a case where the GDPR would come in handy? She could demand a
transcript of all data Amazon has collected on her. Under the GDPR Amazon can
not refuse. This data should contain the reason why her account was closed. If
there is an error in the data, you can demand a correction. Under the GDPR
Amazon can not refuse. If the data does not give a valid reason for closing an
account, it must be incomplete. A GDPR violation! Punishment for GDPR
violations are rather severe, I doubt any company would take the risk.

------
arkanciscan
I could replace her collection with torrented epubs in about a half a day.

~~~
m-p-3
This is simply a workaround to a deeper problem with DRMs, we're simply
renting an unlimited access (that can be revoked at any time, sometime with a
valid reason and sometime not) of purchases.

I'm still appreciative of all those folks working in the shadow to break those
protections and provide a DRM-free version, even if it's illegitimate.

------
greentimer
The lack of details make it tougher to side with the apparent victim here. I'd
like to know whether she really did violate DRM in a meaningful way and the
closure of her Kindle account was an appropriate response. I wouldn't go so
far as the author and claim that DRM means you merely rent books from Amazon
and they can be taken away at any time. This is likely something that affects
a very small percentage of users and is like a freak accident when it happens,
though according to radical skepticism, freak accidents may be much more
likely than we intuit. However I agree that the response from the Amazon
representative must have been very frustrating to receive and this would cause
Amazon significant problems if the same thing happened to a large number of
users. In the end I hope writing such articles about the problem helps resolve
it before it does affect a large number of users.

~~~
the_af
> _The lack of details make it tougher to side with the apparent victim here._

What do you mean? The victim provided every detail (and in fact, she later got
her account restored, no apologies or explanations given -- again). All
details missing are by _Amazon_ , which is precisely the problem: the company
can terminate your account and delete the items you bought while providing
_absolutely no information whatsoever_.

It's as if a brick & mortar book store reserved the right to enter your house
and take back a book you bought, without explaining everything besides "you
broke a rule".

The glitch in their fraud detection system is not the biggest issue; glitches
happen. Their total lack of transparency and explanations is the problem.

