
Turkish academics: Remain silent or risk all - Tomte
http://www.zeit.de/wissen/2016-07/turkish-academics-human-rights-ban-travel-recep-tayyip-erdogan/komplettansicht
======
gokhan
An atheist, lefty dev from Turkey here. Never voted for Erdogan and never
will. I'll dance when he legitimately GTFO, be it election, sickness, his
death, legal trial, anything normal in life.

But not via a bloody coup. That night, half of the military elite turned
against their own people, ordered opening fire to crowds and National
Assembly. Some people died on the street in pajamas, think how impulsive
people's response was against the coup.

Mentally, Turkey is a very separated country. There's almost no way to unite
Erdogan followers with left wing secularists and Kurds. But we are all united
against the coup and there are almost no doubt that Gulenists are behind this
bloody adventure. For the last 17-18 years, various layers of Turkey came
against Gulen and realized how brutal he is against any idea criticizing him.
The last layer left was Erdogan's followers and they also saw the truth in the
last 3 years in two different occasions.

Erdogan is still Erdogan, he was on his way to dictatorship and shows signs of
using the situation in that way. His past actions makes us believe that. But
we still can hope to overthrow him with an election, as we nearly did in June
2015. But there's no way to get rid of any general in power because of a
bloody coup. Turkey got 3 successful coups in history and we can see clearly
how those times held us back in the world scene. We don't want any more of
that.

~~~
rcheu
Is there any real proof that Gulen is behind the coup? I'ved heard a number of
Turks both here and on Quora saying he is, but I've never seen any proof
presented. It seems like it shouldn't be too hard to find given that the
movement is supposedly huge.

~~~
JohnLeTigre
From the German newspaper FOCUS:

"Half an hour after the shooting started the British intelligence service GCHQ
intercepted phone calls, e-mails and SMS from within the Turkish government
apparatus saying that the purges would start next day and that Gülen should be
presented as the mastermind of the coup"

Still too early to confirm since it's the only publication that claims this.

~~~
tim333
It'd be unusual for GCHQ to leak that kind of thing.

------
toyg
Italian newspapers published emails from desperate Turkish academics stationed
abroad, available to work for free on anything, just to avoid answering the
call they got from national authorities to go back. People with PhD literally
begging for a few months more, just so that they can find a job and make a new
life out of Turkey. It's the sort of thing you read in German or Italian
letters from the 1920s and 1930s, almost verbatim.

There is a lot to be said for people abusing words like "dictator" and
"fascism" when this or that ruler does not agree with them, but when the
situation gets to this level, you have to reach for those words in no
uncertain terms. This is how a fragile democracy dies.

Anybody in a position to help these people today, should do that.

~~~
dharma1
Source? How do I find such people in the UK?

~~~
toyg
Italian, but one of the emails is in English:
[http://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/2016/07/22/turchia-la-
resa-d...](http://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/2016/07/22/turchia-la-resa-dei-
prof-mi-cacceranno-non-mandate-studenti-in-erasmus-qui-richiamatemi-in-italia-
lavorerei-gratis/2926160/)

------
kweks
This has been going on for years under Tayyip unfortunately. Around the time
of the Gezi protests, I had several renouned journalist friends with high-
profile jobs (hurriyet etc) that were immediately axed: their publishers were
given the 'choice' of purging or being shut-down.

The only silver-lining is that Tayyip is now under the international
spotlight; even if he doesn't seem to care, at least more people are aware.

~~~
Freak_NL
Are you on a first name basis with Erdoğan?

~~~
coldtea
You do know that not every country/culture has the same first name/last name
etc calling practices, right?

~~~
Freak_NL
My comment may have come across as snide, my apologies for that. But I stand
by my point; if we want to discuss something we shouldn't stoop to derogatory
use of names. In English it is permissible and customary to refer to officials
by their last name (e.g., 'Obama', 'Hollande', 'Merkel'). Using their given
names, unless done in an obvious tongue-in-cheek fashion, laces your opinion
with weasel-speak. It detracts from a sensible exchange of ideas, views, and
standpoints.

If we all resort to using whatever we feel is most applicable for Erdoğan (or
any other demagogue) I would be very surprised if half of the pseudonyms used
did not hint at the alleged illegitimate consummation of those of the caprid
persuasion — let's not venture there.

~~~
areyousure
You're overselling your point. For example, in the 2016 presidential
primaries, _many_ of the candidates were using their first names
preferentially: Hillary, Bernie, Jeb, Rand, Carly. Of course, some candidates
focused on their last names: Trump, O'Malley. And others used their full name:
Ted Cruz, Ben Carson, Marco Rubio.

------
cm3
One thing I'd like to understand is if some of the improvements like less
discrimination of minorities and getting rid of the death penalty were purely
for EU relations and never supported by the AKP. Considering to reinstate the
death penalty now is something I don't understand. Can someone who grew up and
lives in Turkey explain? I recall that when they snatched the PKK leader they
didn't terminate him, and he's jailed. So how come the death penalty is
seriously considered an improvement in 2016?

~~~
denzil_correa
> So how come the death penalty is seriously considered an improvement in
> 2016?

This is primarily to make it difficult to oppose Erdogan. Earlier, an
opposition would mean - jail time and potential release sometime in the
future. Now, an opposition would mean - you have to sacrifice your life.
Basically, the government has upped the stakes against dissent.

~~~
cm3
But Erdogan can be subject to the same penalty, especially now that they're
getting rid of political immunity.

~~~
varjag
It doesn't seem Erdogan has plans for retirement any time soon.

------
dharma1
Brain drain is a great way to improve your country's future prospects

~~~
lovelearning
Dictators don't care about their country's prospects, only their own, their
kin and their lackeys. Mugabe, Kim Jong-Un, those of the *stans - all are
doing very well for themselves.

~~~
tamana
"those of the *stans" is a slur against the population of entire linguistic
family

------
FreakyT
It's really too bad the coup there failed.

~~~
kweks
You'll find yourself modded up and down over this. In a purely intellectual
sense, it is definitely a shame that the coup failed. The turkish miliatry has
a history of stepping in when a government no longer adheres to the pricipals
of the republic, specifically in relation to secularism.

By any metric, Tayyip's leadership is not secular.

However, the turkish people (at least according to my friends) are are badly
shaken after the two recent terrorist attacks - the coup represents more
violence - regardless of its 'benevolance'.

Turkey's admiration of Atatürk, the 'founding father' of modern Turkey is
absolute: a benevolant dictator, he molded Turkey into a modern balanced
country, uniting multiple social, ethnical and religous systems.

It is widely held that Tayyip is doing exactly the opposite: peice by peice
dismantling the social balance and fundamentals of Turkey. Naturally, his
actions are liked by some - but his goal is to divide, as opposed to unite.

Based upon this, the coup seems to be yet another tangile proof of the
disquiet that has been installed under the Tayyip regieme.

Essentially, the turkish people have had enough of bloodshed, division and
disharmony.

~~~
cm3
You and I may not like it, but the vast majority of the population supports
the views and policies of the AKP and Erdogan. Democracy means the government
can be controlled by unreasonable politicians, but it's not a dictatorship. If
anything it's probably a bug in the political system in how a majority number
of seats can control so much despite a considerable number of opposing seats
in parliament.

Switzerland has a direct democracy where, if the population were to vote for
it, they would pass all kinds of crazy policies. This is in contrast to the UK
where people now believe the referandum means the government has to embark on
an EU-exit process. They don't, because the UK is not a direct democracy. If
Front Nationale ruled France and pushed discriminatory policies, would we call
Le Penne a dictator as well?

Speaking of Ataturk, back when he introduced the reforms, some of it was
unsupported by parts of the electorate, just as some of Edogan's policies are.
Democracy means what the majority votes for wins, unless there's some rigging
like in US, Russia, or probably Turkey as well. I mean, if votes can be rigged
in the US and any and all objection is silenced by friends in the Supreme
Court, then what do you expect from Russia or Turkey, really?

Isn't the current situation in Turkey just another case of shock doctrine, as
unfortunately happens annually all over the globe?

~~~
akiselev
Vast majority my arse. Erdogan won the last election in 2014 with less than
52% of the vote [1] on less than 75% turnout and he has only been so
successful in his career because of a quirk of demographics. Turkey has been
slower than other countries in urbanization and the rural Islamic majority has
used their _very slim_ majority to wipe out democracy and institute their
policies at the expense of the urban secular minority. Just look at the
distribution of protests in the country and you see a very clear pattern: the
cities are very different from the rest of the country.

Putin is someone who has the support of the vast majority of his constituents,
even despite the hardships and corruption, while Erdogan is just another
opportunistic authoritarian who abused a faulty system to become a
"democratically elected" dictator. In the eyes of much of the rest of the
world, he has no legitimacy and is a pariah whose only leverage is the migrant
crisis and the conflict with ISIS.

[1]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_presidential_electio...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_presidential_election,_2014)

~~~
linkregister
52% of the vote on 75% turnout is fantastic. When's the last time an American
president was voted in on such a mandate?

~~~
akiselev
The United States doesn't have compulsory voting like Turkey does. Australia,
another country with compulsory voting (although much better enforced),
regularly sees elections with over 90-95% turnout. _That_ is a real democratic
mandate.

~~~
linkregister
Thanks for the information; I was unaware that Turkey has compulsory voting.

Is there a credible opposition party to AKP, or a smattering of smaller
parties?

~~~
akiselev
There is a long list of opposition parties in Turkey but few of them have any
power [1]. The main opposition party with about a quarter of MPs (vast
majority representing urban districts) is the Republican People's Party, which
was the first political party in Turkey post WWI as well as the one led by
Ataturk during his secular revolution.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_T...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Turkey)

------
bogomipz
This purge is really something, even cabin crew for Turkish Airline have lost
their jobs as part of this. The real coup seem to be going on right now. Its
starting to look like "Night of the Long Knives."

~~~
ArkyBeagle
It's tempting to make parallels with 1930s Germany, but that was just such a
unique situation. These are usually "all unhappy families are different"
situations.

~~~
e12e
I think the parallel is pretty close to the Reichstags fire - apparently it is
(still) disputed if it were orchestrated by the nazis themselves or not -
either way it opened the door to dictatorship. Much as there's been no
credible evidence about the who or why of the coup -- it's clear it's being
used as an excuse to tighten the iron grip.

~~~
bogomipz
If you believe that the coup was staged then yes.

~~~
e12e
Either way. Even if the Reichstags fire was indeed the work of a single man -
and not orchestrated - the Nazi party used it for what it was worth. Similarly
with this coup; if it wasn't staged, it still seems clear that Edrogan is
using it for what it's worth in order to usher in/cement his dictator powers?

~~~
ArkyBeagle
It's pretty clear that Erdogan has been moved closer to being - metaphorically
- a "mob boss" than what we consider an "elected official" in the US ( assume
a sort of spectrum between those). Your thinking changes when you deal with
the possibility of assassination. Guys like Putin can't simply resign; they'll
probably be hunted down and killed if they leave power. They're riding the
tiger.

The general pattern in the Arab Spring has been to assassinate people like
Q'daffi - who remind me more of the heads of crime families than political
leaders. But here I sit in the US, where we can afford to have ... separation
of concern for those roles. And to an extent, the meritocratic myth even in
the US is just that - a myth. It's not like we don't have a presidential
pretender running on the idea that it doesn't really work.

I can't imagine a modern politician actively embracing Sharia for any reason
other than simply wanting to stay in power.

------
chinathrow
Turkey is not a free country any more.

One thing to do is actually voting with your wallet. For example, stop flying
Turkish Airlines which is currently flooding the market with cheap tickets.

~~~
tomp
Hm... but still buy iPhones and other cheap Chinese stuff? Seems like a very
intellectually dishonest proposition ( _edit_ : to clarify: as China is no
more free than Turkey)...

In addition, if we've learned anything from the past decade, it's that
economic problems breed political instability. So maybe Turkish population is
better off (in the long run) if we support them economically.

~~~
chinathrow
> Hm... but still buy iPhones and other cheap Chinese stuff? Seems like a very
> intellectually dishonest proposition...

I honestly don't think that boycotting a country or company for reason x can
be called "dishonest". Where did you read that I encouraged people to by
iPhones and "other cheap Chinese stuff". Hint: I haven't.

------
matty234
Are you aware of killing people at that attempt by soldiers who support Gulen
? This is not about an issue for only AKP or Tayyip Erdogan, this is also
about 90% percent of people who lives in Turkey. No one sees after-coup plan
of gulen supporters like executing of more than 20.000 anti-gulen people . If
so , why should academics be silent ? If they work in this country, they have
to help their country for democracy

------
bymafmaf
I've been in Turkey for the last 2 years. There are so many things to say
against that article but it won't be read or put some importance on.

Here you see how Western media discriminates cultures and manipulates the
news. It's just I am constantly shocked by how hard the Western media tries to
impose its own views for its own citizens.

Maybe in all modern history of Turkey, there hasn't been such a huge agreement
about the failed coup but still Western media gives the message that even coup
would be better...

That day guys, 246 people have died for democracy. Even this fact can change
everything, but it's not even mentioned.

~~~
hx87
I don't know what the hell you've been reading, but the consensus in western
media about the coup appears to be, in order of best to worst:

no coup at all > failed coup > successful coup

Sometimes the latter two are switched, but the former is always presented as
the best outcome.

~~~
catnaroek
So that's why the coup against Morsi was never called a coup?

~~~
JumpCrisscross
Literally the title of the Wikipedia article [1]. Every reference I checked in
that article, including this one from CNN [2], called it a coup. "Coup" and
"revolution" aren't dirty words in Western lexicon.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Egyptian_coup_d%27état](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Egyptian_coup_d%27état)

[2] [http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/05/world/meast/egypt-
coup](http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/05/world/meast/egypt-coup)

------
erlehmann_
Here you can read the article on one page instead of three:
[http://www.zeit.de/wissen/2016-07/turkish-academics-human-
ri...](http://www.zeit.de/wissen/2016-07/turkish-academics-human-rights-ban-
travel-recep-tayyip-erdogan/komplettansicht)

~~~
sctb
Thanks, we updated the link.

------
pinpinini
What Western citizens do not know is that the military coup often has many
legs: Military, Media, Financial institutions and Academy etc. This military
coup killed around 250 people wounded 2000 people. Moreover, the senate and
the citizens were bombed by the military. What would do if your academics are
in bed with those criminals?

~~~
nitrogen
_All_ the academics? How many people have been arrested, detained, or lost
their jobs in the aftermath (I'm actually asking)?

Also, "in bed" is pretty ambiguous. Sympathy is not a crime in the West, no
matter how terrible the recipients of that sympathy.

~~~
pinpinini
"All" described in the article is not true. There were some arrested because
they were advising criminals (in fact, one of them was caught at the military
airpot that launches F16 against people). Some were dismissed from critical
positions. Don't forget that many of those are government employees.

~~~
tim333
I'm not sure about who did what in the coup but a couple of years ago 2000
academics signed a petition asking for peaceful negotiations with the Kurds
rather than military action and Erdogan branded them terrorists and fired them
for that which kind of shows his attitude.

~~~
pinpinini
Yes, that was the time when PKK terror organization destroyed 5-10 Kurdish
cities and killed hundreds of Kurds. Those so-called academics were labeling
the government as "terrorist" because Erdogan was defending Kurds and the
country. Erdogan of course labeled them as terrorists. Remember that those
academics do not do science-- see the scientific publications--instead doing
politics.

~~~
nitrogen
I don't know the specifics in Turkey, but academics elsewhere are often
expected to be the front-line defenders of free inquiry and equality. This is
because free speech, free thought, etc. are necessary to do honest research.

------
m00dy
I'm not sure how much you know about Gulen movement. It is an identical copy
of Opus Dei. They have been building their secret network since 1970s.
Gulenist people have all critical positions in Turkey. 50% of high-ranked
officers in military accused of being part of this group and now arrested.
Even though I'm not a supporter of Erdogan, this coup thing is very serious
and unfortunately I have to stand with Erdogan. Because it is about our
national security. Gulenist people have schools not only in Turkey but also
all around the world. Russia passed a law to close all the schools related to
Gulenist Movement. Guess what? Because these schools are gateway for CIA.
Turkey and USA have contradictory strategies across the middle east. Fethullah
Gulen is the leader of Gulenist Movement and now lives in USA. He born in
Turkey and he is primary school graduate in this context. There is no way for
him to get a green card in US. Anyway, He is supported by invisible government
in US or by someone or some groups. How's that possible a turkish guy who has
primary school diploma can build schools all over the world and gain thousands
of supporters ? I have never seen this entrepreneurship spirit in TR.

As we are turkish people, we want him to be extradited to Turkey. He will come
and defend himself in the court.

~~~
kyledrake
Can you try to cite some actual evidence here instead of parroting what
basically sounds like an insane conspiracy theory?

None of this justifies persecuting academics for conducting science and/or
having not great opinions of their government. None of this is an excuse to
throw away rule of law, and none of it justifies treating humans without basic
dignities
[https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.independent.co.uk/ne...](https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/turkey-
coup-authorities-set-up-traitors-
cemetery-a7160891.html&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwiG2Ivx85jOAhXE5IMKHYWwC6EQqQIIDjAA&usg=AFQjCNEb8Iqv_OWfDWa8MSIKNwXFEMIvQQ)

~~~
selimthegrim
The Gulen charter schools have been up to all sorts of no good in the US, see
[http://www.nola.com/education/baton-
rouge/index.ssf/2013/12/...](http://www.nola.com/education/baton-
rouge/index.ssf/2013/12/kenilworth_charter_school_subj.html)

If you really want to understand the mentality of people that would lead them
to submit to an organization like that, I suggest reading "Black Book" by
Orhan Pamuk.

(As an aside, we met 2-3 years back in Portland a few times at some of those
New Relic meet ups, I hope neocities is still doing well!)

~~~
kyledrake
I'm certainly not ruling out that this could all be true. What I'd love to see
is a compilation of evidence.

There's a great site on Neocities that's been doing this with Scientology
since our foundation and is regularly updated
[https://scientology.neocities.org](https://scientology.neocities.org)

(Neocities is going strong, thank you!)

~~~
centicosm
Posted this earlier in another thread, but this is an interesting, well-
referenced, and us-based analysis supporting his claims:
[http://www.meforum.org/2045/fethullah-gulens-grand-
ambition](http://www.meforum.org/2045/fethullah-gulens-grand-ambition)

