
The Selling of Attention Deficit Disorder - mxfh
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/15/health/the-selling-of-attention-deficit-disorder.html
======
invalidOrTaken
I don't know. I just don't know.

I earned a perfect score on the SAT and was voted "Class Genius" in the
yearbook, but barely graduated from high school. I was dismissed from
university.

I went to work for a machine learning company, where we (self included!) did
some really neat stuff, including some heroic pre-sales-meeting coding that
saved the day in a minor way. But I was fired six months in for low
productivity and low engagement.

Was it brain chemistry? ADD? Millenial entitlement? The Bipolar Lisp
personality? Depression? SAD? A once-seen-impossible-to-unsee glimpse of the
Gervais Principle? ([http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-
principle-o...](http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-
the-office-according-to-the-office/))

Who knows.

What I do know is that

\- a) I may have something, but at least I am _lucid_. This is an
understandable HN comment. I write many of them, and they seem to get ok
ratings.

\- b) I have spent, and could spend, a lot of time trying to nail down exactly
what's up with me. I have very little to show for it.

So I'm trying to just capitalize on the "lucid" part. I'm building stuff. I
realize I'm the proverbial crank working alone, but I'm trying very hard to
avoid the common pitfalls---setting hard deadlines, getting customer feedback,
getting appropriate exercise and social interaction, etc. And it's working.
Things are happening. Milestones are being reached.

It's the best I can do.

~~~
Shinkei
This is an honest post, thanks for sharing.

I am confused by something though. I have only (to my knowledge) known one
person that got a perfect score on the SAT. The reason is that it requires
both reasoning as well as 'stamp collecting'\--(i.e. book knowledge). If you
didn't bother to learn all the obscure vocabulary words used on the SAT that
most high schoolers don't know--(extol, capricious, etc.)--then you must've
been an exceptional reader. Where did you get this other knowledge? Did you
just read a lot?

If you 'barely graduated' high school and got dismissed with university, then
you must've simply not done the work. I've known plenty of people that were
smart, but lazy.

If you are gifted at a young age, it's easy to get relaxed... become lazy and
satsified with the easy victories. The only way you can break this cycle is to
endeavor to place a hurdle in front of yourself, one that you can't easily
jump.

~~~
prutschman
I also got 1600. I read a lot. In high school (many years ago) I made a game
of starting my math homework when the teacher started collecting it, and
usually finished in time. I got very used to skimming by. I did graduate from
university, but it was by the skin of my teeth. Other than that, OP's
experience was very similar to my own. Depression played a huge role in all of
this.

(I'm doing fairly well now, but it was a bumpy road.)

~~~
1457389
Is there a name for people who go through this kind of life trajectory? I want
to know if there is some kind of consensus on how to snap out of it.

~~~
oneshotaccount
"Underachievers"?

My college GPA ended up at 3.1. During the last two years, I got into a
pattern of signing up for a full-time courseload and then completely ignoring
(and failing) one of the classes (if this happens to you, I can only advise
formally shifting to part-time status). I can provide some observations on
particular things that got me through some classes:

One class I failed because I showed up on the first day, determined accurately
that the subject material was quite easy, and stopped going for a while. I
showed up again in the fourth week of class, and learned that I had already
managed a failing grade for myself -- one component of the course grade was a
series of four pop quizzes, of which two had already happened, and to pass the
course overall it was necessary to pass each component.

Since that class was required for a CS degree, I had to retake it. Having
failed it on a technicality pissed me off, so I showed up regularly and was
quite vocal in class, and the professor (not the same one) became very
familiar with me. When late in the term I finally flaked on a homework
assignment, I felt enough of a connection to him that I spoke to him after
class, saying I had been a little busier than usual and hadn't done the
assignment (I made no offer to get it in late). He whacked me on the arm with
the papers he was holding and said "do you need more time? Take another day!",
at which point, obviously, I had to complete the assignment. I never missed
another one.

So one lesson is: _you will do work for a personal connection that your work
ethic would not have motivated you to do_. Wounded pride helps too.

I had a class in which I was one of four students. No real problems there
either; it would have been too embarrassing.

Lesson: _close oversight can keep you working_.

In one class, I was already established in a flaking pattern when a girl in
the class came to me and asked to be my partner (our university encouraged
pair programming). From that point on, I had nothing better to do with my time
than work on the class assignments. Impressing a professor didn't register
with me, but impressing a girl did.

This one is kind of a special case of the first "lesson", so I'll say _it
helps if the reason you 're working is something_ you _find compelling_.

This last point is something I have no personal experience with, but I imagine
having friends who thought working on something potentially productive was a
fun way to spend time would help me a lot. "Hey, let's take a udacity course
together!" "Hey, let's learn rails and set up a website!" That kind of thing.
Peer group matters too. :/

~~~
1457389
This tracks pretty much exactly with my college experience, ugh. The worst
part was that I always used to think of myself as a very independent person
who didn't need anyone else to get things done. When I finally came to realize
the important of social motivations, I had to face the fact that I was just in
denial for years, making myself miserable for no reason to live up to some
ridiculous individualistic ideal.

------
tibbon
As a person with ADHD, that article was too long to hold my attention (no, I'm
not making a joke here).

Also, as a person with ADHD who takes Adderall I don't see what the big fuss
about it as a drug/medicine is. It works. I don't (personally) note any side
effects, and don't see any reason that I'd stop taking it. Before taking
Adderall I was essentially self-medicating my ADHD with copious amounts of
coffee on a daily basis. Yet, no one talks about the drug of caffeine in such
a negative way.

I wasn't ever diagnosed or treated for ADHD as a kid and I had huge issues
with organization and focus in my younger years. I think if I had the 'focus'
that I have now due to Adderall that I could have done significantly better in
school and in my early career.

With Adderall I am no longer late to everything. I use my calendar
effectively. I don't lose things (as much). I get probably 4x the amount of
coding done per day. I'm better in conversation. I get through to do lists far
quicker (and remember to use the list).

Over diagnosed? Sure. But I don't see why this drug is so demonized, where
nicotine, alcohol and caffeine are just kinda standard parts of society and
accepted.

~~~
negativity
I think it's exactly the same thing as coffee, and it's not a medical
condition at all.

Coding really _IS_ naturally boring and mind numbing. That's neither your
imagination nor subjective experience. No one ever steps through a series of
break-points in a debugger, or skims through 1,000 lines of log output, and
thinks: "YEAH, MAN! THIS IS REALLY LIVING!" It pretty much requires an altered
state to enjoy this stuff.

I think the truth is that modern society measures "success" in radically
different and totally unnatural ways now.

Look back at history, and there's a famous correlation between the
introduction of coffee, tea and chocolate to Europe, and the age of
enlightenment.
([https://encrypted.google.com/#q=caffeine+enlightenment+histo...](https://encrypted.google.com/#q=caffeine+enlightenment+history))

The reason pills are used on kids is because they won't reliably drink coffee
on their own. Meanwhile, many parents won't subject their kids to substances
other than normal, healthy food, unless they're comforted by rational,
selfless purpose. Without an appeal to authority, in the form of a soliciting
a qualified doctor's auspicious opinion, parents would just let their kids be
kids.

The industrialized world is obsessed with abstract achievements, and rigid
behavioral norms. Most people have a hard time resisting the trend, and
sometimes do so at their own risk. All of it is artificially tied to quality
of life (more than survival) by social pressures, so it's not so much survival
instinct, so much as it is envy or maybe a desire for inclusion that drives
the behavior.

It's not the drug that's demonized, but the fact that it has become a
prerequisite for staying competitive and Keeping Up With The Joneses, so to
speak.

~~~
sillysaurus2
_Coding really IS naturally boring and mind numbing. That 's neither your
imagination nor subjective experience. No one ever steps through a series of
break-points in a debugger, or skims through 1,000 lines of log output, and
thinks: "YEAH, MAN! THIS IS REALLY LIVING!" It pretty much requires an altered
state to enjoy this stuff._

That's just not true. I'm a counterexample.

------
derefr
I don't know if I really have ADD. There's no real physiological test for it,
just self-assessments and the rejection of the null hypothesis upon the
introduction of various drugs.

What I _do_ know: until I started treatment for ADD, the entire concept of
"willpower" or "motivation" just didn't make sense to me. It was something
other people had, maybe; or perhaps they were lying. But with treatment,
"motivating myself" into doing things for merely their effects on my long-term
goals is a perfectly obvious thing to do. It's very similar to what it felt
like to go through puberty and gain a sex drive—but what I've gained is a
drive to succeed in life.

Watching my own behaviour, introspectively, is fascinating. I keep expecting
to hear a little voice that says "eh, that's too much effort; it makes me
tired just to think of doing that." That voice was a persistent companion for
most of my life. Now, that voice is just not there.

~~~
DanBC
It would be great if we could experiment upon you. Every three months we'd
start you on a new regime of pills. You wouldn't know if they were meds or
placebo. The people giving them to you wouldn't know either. The people
writing the report wouldn't know, until after they'd written the report.

Obviously we can't do this. But I dearly love to know what the results would
be.

For what it's worth: I suspect you would tell the difference between placebo
and med. I'm not so sure about everyone taking those meds.

~~~
derefr
It _is_ a lovely idea. I would go even further; I wish for a world where
everyone is given a "neuropharmapseutical chemistry kit" for their 13th
birthdays (along with RISUG for boys, and a few other things) and told to play
with their own brains (using a paired mobile app that gives them things like
daily dual n-back tests) until they find a happy optimum.

Fill the kit with agonists, reuptake inhibitors, and antagonists for every
major neurotransmitter—serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, GABA,
acetylcholine, glutamine, histamine, etc.—in liver-keyed prodrug form.
Provided as well would be something like an Epipen, full of a chemical that
would preferentially react with (and thus neutralize) any prodrugs left in
your bloodstream, in case of emergencies. (Not that your liver will let you
process the prodrugs into amines quickly-enough to harm you physically, but
there's always the chance of, say, sudden suicidal ideation.)

But ignoring futurism, we've always got gwern:
[http://www.gwern.net/Nootropics](http://www.gwern.net/Nootropics)

~~~
afterburner
Interesting, but above all else it would require enough testing technology to
be able to say you have stabilized back to your regular levels (or stabilized
at all) before trying out the next new thing. Otherwise you are simply wildly
screwing around with your chemistry and hormones to an extent that you may not
be able to accurately measure the effects of any one specific drug on its own,
because the effects are fluctuating and your body is constantly trying to
adapt.

------
flycaliguy
I recently talked to my doctor about possibly having ADHD and when he asked me
what brought me to seek help I mentioned that I had read some success stories
on the internet. Stories about people who first described my symptoms and then
described the incredible success they had achieved with Adderall or Concerta.
I was referring in part to comments I had read here on Hacker News in the
past.

He suggested that at least some of this could be attributed to advertising by
drug companies and the agencies that represent them. That these days, with
most people first turning to the internet before a doctor when it comes to
health issues, a new guerrilla style of marketing had become increasingly
popular. Something to keep in mind.

------
harvestmoon
ADHD is overdiagnosed and is often used as a catch all solution for boys being
boys. Our school system simply does not approve of kids having energy, being a
bit aggressive and playful.

That said, as an author, I have focused on adult ADHD. In adults, it is often
overlooked, and is estimated at around 4.4% prevalence ratio (the reasonable
figures I've seen range from 4-5%.)

Treatment of ADHD can be lifechanging and allow someone to succeed where they
were struggling and suffering before.

~~~
jasonlotito
> Treatment of ADHD can be lifechanging and allow someone to succeed where
> they were struggling and suffering before.

This. 1000 times this. At 33, I didn't think I could just now be diagnosed for
ADHD. Low and behold, I have ADHD and OCD. Being able to get help for both...

Yeah, life changing is a good way to describe it.

You mention you are an author focused on adult ADHD. If you ever want to talk,
I'm more than happy to share. If I can help one other person like me, it would
make all the struggle worth while.

------
bonemachine
As someone with deep experience in this field once explained to me, "The big
drug companies don't sell cures. They sell _diseases_." By which he of course
meant they sell the _idea_ of the disease, for which -- if whipped up to be
scary and believable enough -- the consumer won't hesitate to reach out to
"cure."

~~~
pmjordan
One of the oldest examples of this phenomenon I can think of is how halitosis
wasn't considered nearly as much of a problem before the promotion of
Listerine as a cure for it in the 1920s.

~~~
derefr
You can turn your perspective on this the other way as well, though. Do you
know how hard it is to sell cryonics, life-extension research, etc? Because,
you know, "death isn't that big a deal."

Sometimes, a horrible thing goes unrecognized because we've all just learned
to live with how horrible it is, and to stop wasting emotional energy
despairing about it. When a cure _does_ then come about... some company has to
remind people that the problem is a problem in the first place.

Some "non-problems" are Emperors wearing some very compelling New Clothes.

~~~
afterburner
Cryonics and life extension _research_ are not the same as an actual cure that
works.

------
cenhyperion
Something that was briefly mention but not really explored in the article is
the amount of abuse of drugs like adderall among students, specifically
students in advanced placement and gifted programs.

Speaking as a high school student taking finals in the coming week, I'd
estimate that around 30% (roughly) of my peers are taking adderall at some
point in the coming week without any kind of prescription or oversight. It's
not like it's difficult for them to get said drugs; as the article states 1 in
7 people are diagnosed with ADHD by the time they're 18.

What that means is that you've got teenagers taking serious prescription
medication without knowing what an appropriate dosage is and possible side-
effects, _and_ you have students who actually need said medication to stay
focused and productive selling it and not taking it.

The sad part is that this isn't addressed at all. Most of these students are
great kids placing in the top 10% of their class and thus it's assumed that
they're somehow immune to substance abuse. All of the drug education focused
at students assumes that teenagers are doing drugs or drinking for recreation
and doesn't touch on prescription abuse and better ways of dealing with things
like over-scheduling and stress.

------
yetanotherphd
I think the underlying problem with our society's approach to mental health,
is that people are still too judgmental.

Mental health simply creates a category of people who are immune from
judgement on certain issues. Not that there is no stigma associated with
mental illness, but the categories are "sold" as relieving the person from
other people's unfair judgements. Even if other people still judge, at least
the diagnosed person knows for themself that the judgement is unfair.

But this is really just a hack. If a person tends not to concentrate easily,
we should take that as the base fact in itself. Rather than trying to make a
false distinction between a failure of character or willpower, and something
outside of people's control, we should be accommodating of people's abilities,
and focus on helping people to achieve the best no matter what the source of
their learning problems.

Of course there is one issue that is harder to deal with this way, and that is
academic assessment. I think the solution to this is for academic assessment
to measure as closely as possible the skills that the trained person should be
able to implement. Time constraints are a part of any work, so I think
providing extra time for people with ADD is unfair, but in general exams
shouldn't place an excessive focus on speed or time management.

------
negativity
I don't suffer from ADD/ADHD but I grew up during the 90's, when lots of kids
in school, around me, were being put on all kinds of prescription medication,
but most prevalent were the ADD/ADHD prescriptions.

Of the roughly 20 names I can remember, who I know for a fact were prescribed
ADD/ADHD medications, AND who I knew growing up both before the medication and
after, there was only one guy that obviously had problems, and he was a jerk
in general, and I avoided him as a rule, regardless of whatever medical
attention he may have been receiving. I'm convinced that the rest were pretty
much plied with drugs in the name of school grades, and there was no medical
basis for their "treatment". I'm sure there were many more than the ones I
knew.

Years later, now that I am hopelessly dependent on my morning coffee, and can
look back on past events equipped with a firm understanding of the nature of
stimulants and their affects, from both a therapeutic _and_ recreational
perspective, I am all the more convinced that doctors are providing
performance enhancing drugs as study aids, where no medical condition exists.
Some weak-willed parents are simply swept up in the sales pitch and follow
trends like mindless zombies, and other zealously ambitious parents don't even
think twice about subjecting their kids to unnecessary medicine if it means
success and bragging rights at dinner parties. Still other parents know what
the drugs do based on first hand experience, and feel no qualms about
providing their kids with something they'd readily consume themselves.

The only thing that gnaws at me, is that in quiet suburban parlance, people
will happily refer to prescribing their kids "meds" with jaunty, upbeat names
conceived by marketing departments, but never _EVER_ will anybody admit to
what's really going on. The first time I found a bottle of generic medication
in my friend's bathroom medicine cabinet, the reality of all this dawned on
me.

    
    
      AMPHETAMINE SALTS, 20MG
    

After years and years of middle school D.A.R.E. seminars, where local sheriffs
brought in the folding display cases packed with examples of marijuana,
blotter acid, coke vials and packets of crystal meth; after all the TV and
radio public service announcements, after school specials, very special
episodes of such-and-such-sitcoms, sunday school sermons, and heart-to-heart
conversations with adults I could trust; after all the music videos, and
tabloid coverage of celebrity scandals, episodes of Jerry Springer, and
everything else, there in my hands I held doctor-prescribed amphetamines that
my friend had been taking daily since he was a kid.

It was then that was when I realized everyone around me, young and old, all of
them were just a huge band of highly-skilled bullshit artists.

~~~
duaneb
> weak-willed

Can you provide a definition for this? I'm fucking sick of people going
through this process:

1\. Struggle to understand someone's problem.

2\. Give up.

3\. Blame the victim.

If you see a problem, fix it. But nothing in your comment was at all helpful
for the same people you were criticizing. This may come as a shock to you, but
people struggle from different problems than you do. Some of them may seem
easier to you because you don't experience the same thing.

~~~
yetanotherphd
"Weak willed" was referring to the parents, not alleged sufferers of ADD. Did
you read the whole post, or did you just scan for words you don't like?

In context, "weak willed" referred to the fact that parents let themselves be
convinced that their children had ADD when they should have known that they
were being sold drugs that were merely performance enhancers.

Overall your post comes across as an angry rhetorical rant, while the original
post had some interesting content.

The "solution" that I imagine the poster would propose is to recognize that
Amphetamines offer advantages to almost anyone, and that either we should be
honest about their use as performance enhancers, or find ways to distinguish
between a genuine need for them, and their use for enhancement.

~~~
duaneb
Interestingly, while you are correct in my misunderstanding, I still have the
same gripes. I personally take offense when someone attempts to illustrate
their point with pejoratives rather than reason.

~~~
yetanotherphd
"weak willed" may have negative connotations, but I can't think of a less
loaded word that would express the poster's meaning better.

"suggestible" comes to mind, but I don't think this is really the same thing.

And if the poster really believes that the parents are weak willed, I don't
think that saying so can be considered as failing to use reason. In fact
censoring oneself to use adjectives that carry less negative connotations, is
a violation of reason.

~~~
duaneb
Simply observing that most parents don't research the medication they give to
their children would suffice. I don't see any reason to attribute character
weaknesses.

------
Cthulhu_
The main issue here is that people that don't fit the norm get labeled as sick
- either (or both) by themselves and by society, and drugs will make you or
your kids 'normal'. Or 'better', as some of those ads are trying to tell you.
We live in a meritocracy, and if you're not able to be awesome, you need to be
treated.

ADD and ADHD are both horribly overdiagnosed conditions. Kids will be
hyperactive and hard to control, either by themselves or depending on what you
fed them fifteen minutes earlier (sugar).

I could rant more, but it's late and my brain's fried.

------
adhdthrowaway
This is a throwaway account. This piece is outrageous. It is not about the
selling of ADHD, it's about the selling of ADHD medications, which are useful
for everyone. There should be a discussion about their use in the general
population, for improving concentration, focus, memory, and behavior. This
would not actually be a discussion about ADHD.

I hate that these news pieces gloss over the importance of understanding,
diagnosis, and treatment of actual ADHD. I think we have an epidemic of
ADHDDDD. ADHD Definition Deficit Disorder. If you have the following symptoms:

1\. You think ADHD is not real. 2\. You think everyone has ADHD. 3\. You think
ADHD's status as a disorder is up for debate. 4\. You think ADHD is just
overdiagnosed, and not also dangerously underdiagnosed.

You may be suffering from ADHDDDD.

The best way to sort all of this confusion and controversy out is to educate
people about what ADHD really is, with detailed information about individual
cases [1]. Let's focus on the people who are actually suffering, instead of
all the people who are both inappropriately buying and selling the disease.
Proper knowledge of the former would lead to a self-regulation of the latter.
If people actually knew how ADHD really manifests, then we'd stop flinging
and/or sullying this useful clinical label.

I have adult ADHD and am in my late twenties. I was an amazing student as a
kid. I am a software engineer at Google. I have no problems with the law or
with substance abuse. I do have lots of problems though. I was diagnosed
recently and started treatment, so I have not been impacted by a lifetime of
"selling the disease", but I have always been impacted by a lifetime of the
disease itself. My life is _fucking weird_. I just learned how to tie my
shoes. I can't eat without making a mess. I talk to myself to keep myself
stimulated. I could go on and on. Most people can barely fathom some of these
behaviors.

If what you or your loved ones are dealing with is not really fierce and
bizarre, then you can dismiss your concerns about ADHD. Regardless, if you
have problems that might be addressed with stimulants, welcome to the club.

[1]
[http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/adhd_prog...](http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/adhd_prog_summary.shtml)

------
zw123456
I have often thought that if Einstein was a young person in a public school
today they would probably put him on ritalin. It also appears there are a lot
of dangerous side effects to these drugs that I think may be causing some of
the things in the news lately, I tried posting some articles about this issue
but it got blocked probably because some of the language getting snagged by
HN's key word filters maybe.

~~~
jganetsk
Einstein had all kinds of struggles in his personal life. Maybe he could have
been happier and even more productive. Don't be selfish and cruel to Einstein.
He's not your physics monkey. He deserved happiness as well.

------
jotm
Meanwhile, I still have to get my stimulants illegally.

~~~
manicbovine
It's really easy to fake ADD at a psychiatrist's office. They're working off a
checklist.

------
bsirkia
There's a major black market at my college (top 10 liberal arts) for Ritalin
and Adderall. At least half the students I know have, at some point, taken it
as a study tool. It's super frustrating for the kids of have ADHD, because
they need it to get on par with other students. Then other students take it to
get another leg up.

~~~
MichaelGG
The problem is the idea that academics need to be fair in some way. You could
say that it's frustrating for people with dyslexia that other students use
spell-check, since dyslexics need it just to be on par.

Everyone should be able to easily obtain such useful medications.

------
atmosx
I'm European, I live in Greece/Italy/Czech Republic. We don't we have ADHD or
ADD as a notion in Europe.

I'm having a hard time believing that _it 's an actual problem_. But on the
other hand dismissing easily something that people here believe they are
affected from, it's wrong.

~~~
jganetsk
And the Greeks, Italians, and Czechs are so perfect that there is no room for
the concept of ADHD in their societies? I had a close European friend whose
existing psychiatric treatment could have greatly benefitted from an ADHD
awareness. The doubting of ADHD (caused by anti-Americanism) has a negative
impact on European society.

------
ohwp
Leon Eisenberg words 7 months before his death: _“ADHD is a prime example of a
fictitious disease”_ according to Der Spiegel.

[http://www.worldpublicunion.org/2013-03-27-NEWS-inventor-
of-...](http://www.worldpublicunion.org/2013-03-27-NEWS-inventor-of-adhd-says-
adhd-is-a-fictitious-disease.html)

------
RankingMember
I've been on adderall for awhile, and while it has had a marked positive
effect on my ability to focus (which has been life changing), the negative
side effects suck. I've looked into DIY biofeedback setups, and look forward
to the day cheap off-the-shelf biofeedback setups become available for
treating ADHD.

~~~
vellum
Try some l-theanine. It smooths out the jitters and the comedown effect. Take
100-200 mg every time you take Adderall and also before you go to sleep.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theanine](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theanine)

~~~
RankingMember
I've tried l-theanine after finding it was the active ingredient in those
"neuro bliss" drinks (and having noticed a positive effect, placebo or
otherwise, from them). I honestly didn't notice a whole lot of difference
taking the extract solo, but I'll give it another shot as I still have a bunch
of them. Thanks.

------
ikura
I tried so many different cures... just couldn't stick to any of them for any
length of time.

------
ThrowAway9392
(Using a throw away account because of the stigma)

For those who are curious if ADHD is real? I can tell you, from my personal
experience, it is.

I grew up with it all my life. It is hell. Then I randomly decided to try
Paleo (cutting out gluten, sugar, grain and caffeine). And my ADHD is gone. I
can focus, my mental fog is lifted, my lethargy is gone, I have the ability to
enjoy normal activities.

* My personal Proof: In the last 2 years about 15 times I have cheated on my Paleo diet, by eating bread or a decent amount of sugar. About 12 out of 15 of those times my brain chemistry was quickly affected. I had my old impairments and extreme inability to focus.

* I realize the causes for ADHD for me are not necessarily the same as others. It's probably a host of causes that affect the brain in a similar way. However, I am sure there are more people out there who are like me. FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE MY ALLERGY TO GLUTEN: ADHD IS A REAL DISEASE. AND IT IS HELL.

## What it feels like to have ADD/ADHD

Because I can intentionally turn off my ADHD by eating Paleo or turn it back
on, like clock work by eating grain or sugar, I can tell you what having ADHD
is like in a very exact way.

# Eating Paleo for 3 weeks straight (no ADHD):

I still don’t feel like doing work often time. Some time work sounds fun and
some time it doesn’t. Its the same feeling I saw most my peers in college have
towards work.

If I don’t feel like doing something I really have to find a reason to make my
self do it. (Basically the standard thing non ADD people say).

# With ADHD (eating a piece of bread)

Unexplainable feeling of mental uncomfortableness (EXTREME, HORRIBLE, and
PAINFUL boredom) that can only be slightly assuaged with heavy distraction.

Want to know what it feels like?

\- Imagine being on a 10 hour flight that just landed, you can’t wait to get
up and walk out into the terminal, however, each person in front of you is
taking longer and longer to get their stuff. Before you know it you have been
sitting in your seat for over an hour waiting to get off. You are sitting in
your seat unable to comfort your feelings of boredom and discomfort with the
wait. Now multiply that negative feeling by 10. You might start to be rude to
people just so that you have something to distract your pain with. You might
start making dumb noises so people will stair at you and give you attention.
This attention will help distract the unfathomable boredom/pain you are
feeling.

(In one of my college classes I would take my rolling chair and go up and down
a slight ramp in the class room while the teacher was giving lecture. I knew I
was being and idiot. I knew I wanted to pay attention to the teacher and
learn. However, the brief and little relief this distraction gave me was
incredibly tempting. I would rather do things that made me feel pathetic than
feel the pain of ADHD.)

\- Imagine your mental capacity to think and remember words is cut by about
20-50%

\- Imagine your motivation to work towards your dreams is cut by about 20-50%

\- Imagine you can’t think of anything in the world that would excite you.
Everything seems so un entertaining and boring. And this is not depression. I
can be extremely happy and simply just eat a piece of bread and my whole
mental mood changes. I feel like I am under a drug that gives me ADHD. It
doesn’t make me depressed. It just makes everything seem so un satisfying (in
regards to entertainment). Growing up I couldn’t play video games longer than
20 mins, even for the most critically acclaimed games, I would become mind
numbingly bored.

So thats what having ADHD is like, its REAL (well I can only speak for
myself).

I’m probably a lot like many people here reading this on HN: I am extremely
smart but struggled in school due to my ADHD. I got good grades in physics
classes such as special relativity and decent grades in advanced math classes
such as calc III. In spite of my ADHD. I wouldn’t study or do homework. Well
sometimes I would copy homework. And luckily I took enough a way from lecture
to get good grades on the tests.

However, I never ended up finishing my degree because as time went on I
couldn’t keep up the good grades as my programming classes depended more on
more doing actual work. I remember getting an B in systems programming in C
class because I set the curve on all the tests. I finished many of the
programs (starting the night before they were do), however I didn’t even turn
in the last three programs (I felt so pathetic). But soon the demands in
classes start to become greater. They weren’t just programs I could do in a 12
hour marathon the night before. I even tried 5 different ADHD drugs over a 1.5
year period, none of them really helped enough to be worth the side affects. I
didn't like not feeling like myself and the ups and downs as the drugs take
affect and then wear off. Though, god damn it did feel nice to finally not
feel the pain of ADHD for a few hours. I

I ended up dropping out, however, luckily a few years later I discovered
Paleo. I now wake up at 5am every morning. I am writing a book in the mornings
and I am a lead dev at a great company where I easily put in an 8-9 hour a day
every day. (When I was in college I interned at Microsoft I couldn’t work for
more than about 2 hours a day and I wouldn’t even stay on the campus for more
than 4-6 hours out of the horrible pain of the boredom.) I would arrive at
work around 10:30 am, take a 1.5 lunch and then leave by 2pm or 3pm and head
back to my company provided apartment. I hated my self and it was horrible.
Now, I am proud of my self and love doing 10-11 hour days of work (including
the book). And I don’t take any drugs, I don’t even drink coffee or tea! Zero
caffeine.

This person’s book
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lp7E973zozc](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lp7E973zozc)
and listening to music is my caffeine. If I don’t feel like starting some
work, I remember that "doing the things I don’t feel like doing is the only
way I will get the things I want". I then put on my headphones and listen to
music that pumps me up. After a few minutes I get into my work and have a hard
time remembering to stop for lunch.

# Final Words

So if you think you have ADHD please try Paleo for 30 days, then eat a meal
with a bunch of bread and sugar. See if you see an instant stark change in
your mental make up. The easiest (so probably the most effective) way to eat
Paleo for 30 days is to buy a bunch of meal sized Tupperware, each week go to
costco and find some cooked meat (chicken, pulled pork, etc) with no sauces or
added wheat. Just meat. Buy some different frozen vegetables (no white
potatoes), buy some cooked sweet potatoes or squash, buy some fruit for
snacks. Make your 14 lunches and dinners on Sunday. Put them in your fridge
and bring your lunch to work. I also make scrambled eggs for 7 days on Sunday
and put them in Tupperware. If you have prepped food you are much more likely
to succeed against the temptations of cheating. Know: the first 5 days of
taking sugar and grain out of your diet are going to be the hardest you will
be hit with withdrawals. For some people this feels like getting the flu!

A good primer on the Paleo diet [http://www.doctoroz.com/videos/paleo-diet-
craze-pt-1](http://www.doctoroz.com/videos/paleo-diet-craze-pt-1)

More info about Paleo (know this diet has become a fad, not all websites
promoting the “pale diet” are actually promoting the real diet. I recommend,
at least initially, only using Loren Cordain, PH.D as a source for
information. His book “The Paleo Diet" is great.
[http://www.doctoroz.com/videos/paleo-diet-craze-
pt-1](http://www.doctoroz.com/videos/paleo-diet-craze-pt-1)

~~~
yetanotherphd
I would like to see less stigma attached to ADHD, and more attached to
advocating unhealthy diets. The consensus by experts is that dietary saturated
fat and cholesterol are bad for your health.

I would ask anyone trying to cure their ADHD, cancer, etc. to take a look at

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturated_fat_and_cardiovascula...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturated_fat_and_cardiovascular_disease_controversy)

and "Dietary Guidelines for Americans"
[http://www.cnpp.usda.gov/DGAs2010-PolicyDocument.htm](http://www.cnpp.usda.gov/DGAs2010-PolicyDocument.htm)

~~~
ThrowAway9392
The latest peer reviewed research completely disagrees with you. This is the
diet humans and our ancestors ate for 2.5 million years and up until the past
10,000 years. This is the diet you and I were evolved to eat. The most recent
peer reviewed research shows that saturated animal fats are extremely healthy
(1)(2) if they come from wild or grass fed animals.

Please read this response by Dr. Cordain (to a similar set of statements). "It
is obvious that whoever wrote this piece did not do their homework and has not
read the peer review scientific papers which have examined contemporary diets
based upon the Paleolithic food groups which shaped the genomes of our
ancestors.... five studies (1)(2)(3)(4)(5)(6)(7); four since 2007, have
experimentally tested contemporary versions of ancestral human diets and have
found them to be superior to Mediterranean diets, diabetic diets and typical
western diets in regards to weight loss, cardiovascular disease risk factors
and risk factors for type 2 diabetes.

The first study to experimentally test diets devoid of grains, dairy and
processed foods was performed by Dr. Kerin O’Dea at the University of
Melbourne and published in the Journal, Diabetes in 1984 (6). In this study
Dr. O’Dea gathered together 10 middle aged Australian Aborigines who had been
born in the “Outback”. They had lived their early days primarily as hunter
gatherers until they had no choice but to finally settle into a rural
community with access to western goods. Predictably, all ten subjects
eventually became overweight and developed type 2 diabetes as they adopted
western sedentary lifestyles in the community of Mowwanjum in the northern
Kimberley region of Western Australia. However, inherent in their upbringing
was the knowledge to live and survive in this seemingly desolate land without
any of the trappings of the modern world.

Dr. O’Dea requested these 10 middle aged subjects to revert to their former
lives as hunter gatherers for a seven week period. All agreed and traveled
back into the isolated land from which they originated. Their daily sustenance
came only from native foods that could be foraged, hunted or gathered. Instead
of white bread, corn, sugar, powdered milk and canned foods, they began to eat
the traditional fresh foods of their ancestral past: kangaroos, birds,
crocodiles, turtles, shellfish, yams, figs, yabbies (freshwater crayfish),
freshwater bream and bush honey. At the experiment’s conclusion, the results
were spectacular, but not altogether unexpected given what known about Paleo
diets, even then. The average weight loss in the group was 16.5 lbs; blood
cholesterol dropped by 12 % and triglycerides were reduced by a whopping 72 %.
Insulin and glucose metabolism became normal, and their diabetes effectively
disappeared.

The first recent study to experimentally test contemporary Paleo diets was
published in 2007 (5). Dr. Lindeberg and associates placed 29 patients with
type 2 diabetes and heart disease on either a Paleo diet or a Mediterranean
diet based upon whole grains, low-fat dairy products, vegetables, fruits,
fish, oils, and margarines. Note that the Paleo diet excludes grains, dairy
products and margarines while encouraging greater consumption of meat and
fish. After 12 weeks on either diet blood glucose tolerance (a risk factor for
heart disease) improved in both groups, but was better in the Paleo dieters.
In a 2010 follow-up publication, of this same experiment the Paleo diet was
shown to be more satiating on a calorie by calorie basis than the
Mediterranean diet because it caused greater changes in leptin, a hormone
which regulates appetite and body weight.

In the second modern study (2008) of Paleo Diets, Dr. Osterdahl and co-workers
(7) put 14 healthy subjects on a Paleo diet. After only three weeks the
subjects lost weight, reduced their waist size and experienced significant
reductions in blood pressure, and plasminogen activator inhibitor (a substance
in blood which promotes clotting and accelerates artery clogging). Because no
control group was employed in this study, some scientists would argue that the
beneficial changes might not necessarily be due to the Paleo diet. However, a
better controlled more recent experiments showed similar results.

In 2009, Dr. Frasetto and co-workers (1) put nine inactive subjects on a Paleo
diet for just 10 days. In this experiment, the Paleo diet was exactly matched
in calories with the subjects’ usual diet. Anytime people eat diets that are
calorically reduced, no matter what foods are involved, they exhibit
beneficial health effects. So the beauty of this experiment was that any
therapeutic changes in the subjects’ health could not be credited to
reductions in calories, but rather to changes in the types of food eaten.
While on the Paleo diet either eight or all nine participants experienced
improvements in blood pressure, arterial function, insulin, total cholesterol,
LDL cholesterol and triglycerides. What is striking about this experiment is
how rapidly so many markers of health improved, and that they occurred in
every single patient.

In an even more convincing recent (2009) experiment, Dr. Lindeberg and
colleagues (2) compared the effects of a Paleo diet to a diabetes diet
generally recommended for patients with type 2 diabetes. The diabetes diet was
intended to reduce total fat by increasing whole grain bread and cereals, low
fat dairy products, fruits and vegetables while restricting animal foods. In
contrast, the Paleo diet was lower in cereals, dairy products, potatoes,
beans, and bakery foods but higher in fruits, vegetables, meat, and eggs
compared to the diabetes diet. The strength of this experiment was its cross
over design in which all 13 diabetes patients first ate one diet for three
months and then crossed over and ate the other diet for three months. Compared
to the diabetes diet, the Paleo diet resulted in improved weight loss, waist
size, blood pressure, HDL cholesterol, triglycerides, blood glucose and
hemoglobin A1c (a marker for long term blood glucose control). This experiment
represents the most powerful example to date of the Paleo diet’s effectiveness
in treating people with serious health problems."

References

(1) Frassetto LA, Schloetter M, Mietus-Synder M, Morris RC, Jr., Sebastian A:
Metabolic and physiologic improvements from consuming a paleolithic, hunter-
gatherer type diet. Eur J Clin Nutr 2009.

(2) Jönsson T, Granfeldt Y, Ahrén B, Branell UC, Pålsson G, Hansson A,
Söderström M, Lindeberg S. Beneficial effects of a Paleolithic diet on
cardiovascular risk factors in type 2 diabetes: a randomized cross-over pilot
study. Cardiovasc Diabetol. 2009;8:35

(3) Jonsson T, Granfeldt Y, Erlanson-Albertsson C, Ahren B, Lindeberg S. A
Paleolithic diet is more satiating per calorie than a Mediterranean-like diet
in individuals with ischemic heart disease. Nutr Metab (Lond). 2010 Nov
30;7(1):85

(4) Jonsson T, Ahren B, Pacini G, Sundler F, Wierup N, Steen S, Sjoberg T,
Ugander M, Frostegard J, Goransson Lindeberg S: A Paleolithic diet confers
higher insulin sensitivity, lower C-reactive protein and lower blood pressure
than a cereal-based diet in domestic pigs. Nutr Metab (Lond) 2006, 3:39.

(5) Lindeberg S, Jonsson T, Granfeldt Y, Borgstrand E, Soffman J, Sjostrom K,
Ahren B: A Palaeolithic diet improves glucose tolerance more than a
Mediterranean-like diet in individuals with ischaemic heart disease.
Diabetologia 2007, 50(9):1795-1807.

(6) O'Dea K: Marked improvement in carbohydrate and lipid metabolism in
diabetic Australian aborigines after temporary reversion to traditional
lifestyle. Diabetes 1984, 33(6):596-603.

(7) Osterdahl M, Kocturk T, Koochek A, Wandell PE: Effects of a short-term
intervention with a paleolithic diet in healthy volunteers. Eur J Clin Nutr
2008, 62(5):682-685.

View full response for all references [https://www.facebook.com/notes/the-
paleo-diet/dr-cordains-re...](https://www.facebook.com/notes/the-paleo-
diet/dr-cordains-rebuttal-to-us-news-and-world-report-
top-20-diets/10150212424887973)

~~~
yetanotherphd
There seems to be a methodological issue where you are copy-pasting arguments
that support your view, without noting that other sources, including the one's
I linked, in turn make arguments against the ones you have copy-pasted.

I think that the consensus of medical experts trumps a minority opinion, and
that is my basis for making this decision.

I don't have time to read 1000s of articles or summaries, and even if I did, I
don't see how my judgement on the matter would be superior to an expert's.
Similarly, you are not actually addressing the sources I quote, and so you are
making an appeal to authority, just a weaker form of authority.

See also
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_diet#Intervention_s...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_diet#Intervention_studies)
for a critical discussion of the studies you mentioned.

~~~
ThrowAway9392
The research backs up the claim that saturated fats are good for you "in
regards to weight loss, cardiovascular disease risk factors..." I don't see
how there are any conflicts.

Honestly, this is why I am glad I made these statements with a throw away
account. Look your are obviously not interested in having your mind changed.
You can keep eating the food that has lead to more heart attacks and other
food related deaths per person than any other time period. Or you could be
willing to learn a little. Learn that the latest peer reviewed research shows
grain and sugar are causing the epidemic we are in. Research that shows
saturated fats are what our ancestors ate [1] and are extremely healthy (if
coming from wild or grass fed sources, thus high in omega 3 fats).

[1] [http://thepaleodiet.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/CRC-
Chapt...](http://thepaleodiet.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/CRC-
Chapter-2006a1.pdf)

At the very least do you not agree with the author of Brain Grain?
[http://www.drperlmutter.com/about/bio/](http://www.drperlmutter.com/about/bio/)

"David Perlmutter, MD, FACN, ABIHM is a Board-Certified Neurologist and Fellow
of the American College of Nutrition. He received his M.D. degree from the
University of Miami School of Medicine where he was awarded the Leonard G.
Rowntree Research Award for best research by a medical student. After
completing residency training in Neurology, also at the University of Miami,
Dr. Perlmutter entered private practice in Naples, Florida."

------
dschiptsov
How come that children in, say India have survived without any medication or
even diagnostic of A.D.H.D?)

The answer is, probably, in that the environment and conditioning has a much
more to do with these dynamics than medication, so in a less stressed and more
friendly environment (which Hindu/Buddhist communities traditionally have)
such "disorders" are "self-corrected" by some natural behavioral "therapy",
and, perhaps, much less frequently developed in the first place.

In contrast, in social shitholes like Russia number of so-called "problem
children" is uncounted, and traditionally the traits described in DSM for a
full spectrum of so-called "disorders" are considered quite normal. It is very
common scene in Russia when a kid cries "hysterically" non-stop, while parents
just scream back or and hit them. This is not exactly A.D.H.D case, but an
illustration of what environment does.)

hint: before down-voting try to estimate the population of Hindu and Buddhist
countries, which accounts, roughly, to a half of the population of the globe,
compared to 300MM of Americans.))

~~~
1457389
This does not reflect my experience growing up. Have a google of Taare Zameen
Par, a movie about what an autistic child in Indian society goes through. I
believe it is on Netflix.

~~~
dschiptsov
I need no movies to know what autism is.)

About movies, is Asperger-like behavior of De Niro's character Travis in Taxi
Driver is explicitly described in the screenplay or was a side-effect of a
good acting?) And that Jean Reno as Leon, you know.

------
ruttiger
TLDR

~~~
dsego
I love the irony.

------
billsix
worst part is that sales of Phil Collins' albums has been increasing!

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timmy_2000](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timmy_2000)

~~~
billsix
to whomever downvoted me-watch the episode. it is relevant

