
Witch Burnings in Papua New Guinea - fahimulhaq
http://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/they-burn-witches-here/
======
wtbob
> The Highlanders fancied the music not because it was beautiful. They liked
> it, they explained, because the trumpets sounded exactly like the brassy
> screams of captive women selected for feasting.

And then later:

> Our social harmony was going along until the white man arrived … You
> intrude, and suddenly the things that used to go smoothly no longer do.

I'll go out on a limb and suggest that a social harmony in which people love
the cries of those they are about to eat is a social harmony which _needs_
disruption, destruction and replacement with something better.

What Papua New Guinea needs is more, not less colonialism; it needs a governor
like General Sir Charles Napier, who put down the practice of suttee in Sindh,
and who upon being entreated by the native priests that it was a sacred rite
which should be respected, responded, 'Be it so. This burning of widows is
your custom; prepare the funeral pile. But my nation also has a custom. When
men burn women alive we hang them, and confiscate all their property. My
carpenters shall therefore erect gibbets on which to hang all concerned when
the widow is consumed. Let us all act according to national customs!' (from
Sir W.F. Napier's 'History of General Sir Charles Napiers Administration of
Scinde').

It's a tragedy that civilised powers did not stay there longer and correct
more of PNG's broken society; it would be a crime (of ethics, if not of law)
if the Western energy companies aren't doing something to fix that society,
rather than live on its edges.

~~~
MichaelGG
Yep. There's a great book called _Sick Societies_ that does a great job
dismantling the myth of the noble savage. PNG is one place discussed. IIRC, it
also contains some cultures that highly value eating people you betray. The
greater the betrayal (as in, you've befriended someone and act in their
interests, then kill them), the higher the reward (respect or whatever).

Simply by agreeing on some basic human rights, or just being opposed to
murder, is enough to show these societies are bad. Interference isn't
intrinsically bad, and there's nothing unethical about putting an end to such
atrocities. (It might be easy to fall into the trap of committing your own
ethical violations while ending atrocities, but it's not required.)

The book does a good job of providing solid evidence of the harm these
cultures inflict on people.

~~~
ivoryst
Could the american south of 50 years back included as a "sick society". Just
swap "evil witch" with "uppity negro" and exactly the same atrocities were
being committed. Labeling whole groups of people as savages or noble is just a
lie, and its been used to enslave and dehumanize others through history. We
are all capable of being savage or noble, whether you live in a tropical
jungle or highrise apartment somewhere.

~~~
MichaelGG
Even if you do, it doesn't change the myth of the noble savage. Like the
poster was saying, these folks are pining for the good days, before the "white
man" came and messed it up. All I'm pointing out is that these societies were
messed up well before colonization. (I'd guess that post colonization was
nearly always an improvement, but that's unrelated.)

~~~
ivoryst
> I'm pointing out is that these societies were messed up well before
> colonization

Using your metric of "messed up society" ie the public, condoned torture and
murder of "outsiders", the point am making is that all societies are pretty
messed up.

And when you start labelling whole groups of people that way, thats actually
step 1 in the plan to exploit, colonize or commit genocide.

~~~
MichaelGG
That's fine, all societies may be messed up. That's still opposite the claim
that they were good before colonization (noble savage, to repeat myself).

And I don't think colonization belongs on the same level as genocide. Having
lived in a shitty country, they'd be _far_ better off if they were colonized
by a decent country (even today). They might be better off after a genocide,
too, but that has a negative effect on everyone that's killed so it's unfair.
Colonization doesn't have that issue. The people of said country seem to
agree, given their persistence of trying to immigrate to other countries,
while expressing a fondness for their home country. If their home country was
colonized, they could enjoy the benefits of both. (To be absolutely clear, I'm
saying that e.g. Elbonia would benefit greatly by having e.g. Canada
peacefully take over their government and run it as a second tier province.)

~~~
ivoryst
> That's still opposite the claim that they were good before colonization

What does colonization mean to you? What value did colonization bring (lets
talk factual specifics here) that weren't there before.

> They might be better off after a genocide, too

So what exactly are the benefits of a genocide?

------
simonsquiff
PNG is an extraordinary place. My father spent a year in the highlands in
1960, in a missionary outpost in a part of the highlands tha only had contact
with the outside world about 5 years earlier. He fell in love with the place
and the people; I then visited the same a village a couple of years ago, and
had what will probably be the trip of a lifetime, with incredible friendly,
welcoming and warm people.

The cities however are very edgy, dangerous and of no charm whatsoever.

This article of course is talking about a very ugly and horrific side of the
culture, albeit one that flares up once in a while rather than being ever
present.

As it discusses, in the highlands the people didn't even know the rest of the
world existed until the 20th century. They hardly ever went to the next
village. It was extraordinarily isolated. It's also an incredible story, I
strongly recommend the (out of print) book First Contact that describes how
both the explorers and locals reacted to this incredible moment - all expertly
documented, and recent enough that the authors could interview people who
remembered it first hand.

The true highlands are not the towns this article discusses. Mount Hagan is a
large bustling town with a main airport. It no doubt has much more occurrences
of this ugliness, with communities thrown together more and the chaos of large
town living.

The villages in the highlands, where I visited, don't have this kind of vibe,
though I'm sure sometimes events like this could occur. They have a sense of
community that we in the west have lost. For instance, all the children play
together in one big bundling group of fun. The 8 year olds, 5 year olds and 3
year olds (with 1 year olds on their hip) all being kids, without parents (let
alone a helicopter one) - though any adult might interact if required. When
this type of community setting goes wrong you get the 'immune system' response
this article describes, but this doesn't paint any of the daily positives when
things are normal.

Like the author I'm optimistic that education will make the bad parts a think
of the past. But don't think PNG is a country of savages - the highlands that
I and my father knew, whilst transitioning in an exceptionally unique way are
full of humanity as wonderful as anywhere in this world.

~~~
anotherevan
I have been to PNG three times. Early '80s when I was three for ten months
(had my fourth birthday there), again when I was thirteen for three months,
and lastly about eight years ago for a few weeks.

I agree with your observations, which feel quite astute to me.

Some of the cities are awful, particularly Moresby. (I stayed in the Mapang
guest house that was mentioned when we got stranded in Moresby due to a missed
connecting flight. Travel plans always involved trying to get in and out of
Moresby in the same day and not leaving the airport if at all possible.)

I spent most of my time in Ukarumpa but have visited Goroka as well as Lae and
Madang. Never been near Mount Hagan, which has a long history of violence.

One thing I noticed changing over the times I visited was the increased amount
of security. The razor-wire fences, not just in Morseby. Armed security guards
and such.

With around 860 distinct languages, isolation and travel difficulty imposed by
incredibly rugged terrain, it is a country with remarkably unique challenges.

------
binarycrusader
_Thanks to missionaries ... 96 percent of people in Papua New Guinea consider
themselves Christian._

That's a bizarre bit of editorializing to put into what should be a balanced
work of journalism.

I imagine the writer was trying to imply that most of the population in Papua
New Guinea won't participate in events like these because of a belief system
they've acquired. However, when a writer words things like that, it makes me
question their inherent bias.

~~~
sbierwagen
I'm not quite sure what you're objecting to here. That missionaries operate in
PNG?

~~~
binarycrusader
I'm objecting to the implication that we should be thankful that the people of
Papua New Guinea have been "converted" to a different system of beliefs.

The "conversion" of various indigenous peoples to essentially a western system
of beliefs is what I find disagreeable. Proselytization events such as these
have resulted in a significant loss to the preservation of various cultures
(and languages) around the world and I feel have contributed to a loss of
identity especially among indigenous or aboriginal communities.

Forgive me if I seem overly sensitive to this, but some of my ancestors got to
experience this "wondrous conversion" firsthand and it leaves me with a bitter
taste in my mouth.

~~~
placeybordeaux
Oh I interperted the use of "thankful" here as in relation to the cause, not
in relation to being thankful.

~~~
sbierwagen
Your previous reading was correct.

------
vezzy-fnord
PNG has been the subject of a rather horrific ongoing civil war over the past
some 45 years, but scarcely documented and seldom known in the West:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papua_conflict](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papua_conflict)

It's rather surreal.

~~~
guillaume8375
I think the conflict concerns Idonesia, not PNG.

~~~
tim333
Yeah it's in West Papua rather than PNG.

------
NPMaxwell
It probably takes longer to figure out how to respond to this article than to
other articles linked to on Hacker News

~~~
whyIndeed
This is true, even in situations where you don't care about downvotes.

------
cs702
The craziest thing about this is that the perpetrators of these crimes do not
seem to be "using their beliefs as an excuse to kill for other reasons."
Rather, it appears that long-held beliefs in witchcraft are _the_ reason why
the perpetrators are killing. They sincerely believe they're in the right when
they burn those women alive!

Warning to readers: the article contains pictures of crowds in villages
watching as women accused of witchcraft are tortured before they get burned to
death. It's shocking, disgusting, and disturbing.

~~~
anotherevan
_About 15 years ago, Monica had been a typical PNG wife, caring for her
children and her many subsistence gardens, until her father died suddenly from
a heart attack. As the eldest child, she was entitled to inherit his house,
but her younger brother wanted it badly and accused her of killing their
father with witchcraft. Jelasy like his is very often a motivating factor in
Highlands witchcraft accusations._

Certainly _some_ are using their beliefs as an excuse to kill for other
reasons, manipulating the fear of unwitting participants. As with any and
every belief system though-out history, it will be manipulated by some to
their own ends.

I agree that it is probable that the _majority_ of perpetrators are behaving
out of long-held beliefs though. Beliefs that need to be dismantled.

------
contingencies
Similarly out there beliefs Bali...

[http://www.smh.com.au/world/communist-victims-exhumed-in-
bal...](http://www.smh.com.au/world/communist-victims-exhumed-in-bali-to-stop-
their-spirits-disturbing-villagers-20151031-gknm72.html)

------
fiatmoney
These reactionary islanders should know best practice is to imprison your
witches.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_ritual_abuse](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_ritual_abuse)

------
borplk
The scrollbar was very irritating

------
imaginenore
US evangelical christian pastors have been leading witch burning in Africa
pretty recently. They burned children alive:

[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/18/african-children-
de...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/18/african-children-
denounce_n_324943.html)

~~~
esaym
I highly doubt that. For one, "witch hunting" is not part of any mainline
church doctrine nor is it in the new testament. Yes I know it is in the old
testament, but the OT _Jewish_ laws do not govern the church. A good example
of this is of course found in the new testament. What happened when a man was
caught in the act of adultery? He was simply kicked out of the congregation,
and only through repentance and remorse would one be let back in.

For the most part, the links you posted only mentioned pentecostal
denominations. And as much as I disagree with pentecostalism, I really can't
even tear into it here because that is not even what is at play here.

This is Africa we are talking about. An entire continent that is filled with
tribes and small villages that at least at one time, were ruled by
witchdoctors. Got a plague among you? Sacrifice a few children they say. Got
AIDS? Find a 10 year virgin and "purify" yourself with her. These things have
been the norm over there for ages. The media simply loves to find the worst of
the worst and brandish it all over. There are plenty of good missionaries and
ministries over there:
[http://tinyurl.com/njaqtzc](http://tinyurl.com/njaqtzc) but they are of
course ignored and not shared because they are not as "exciting" and
sensationalized as the negativity.

~~~
ivoryst
>This is Africa we are talking about. An entire continent that is filled with
tribes and small villages that at least at one time, were ruled by
witchdoctors. Got a plague among you? Sacrifice a few children they say.

Your ideas about africa come straight out of the 1850s, and I'm embarrassed to
read these kind of comments here. Atleast the people from the 1850s have an
excuse ( no internet, pictures, books, travel etc to get the real facts); but
whats yours?

~~~
esaym
No, this is from several groups of missionaries I personally know over there
right now. Some in the bush who have to deal with witch doctors running
villages, and others in big cities where they have to deal with somehow paying
$800 for rent a month.

You take my quote somewhat out of context, what I am saying is there have been
plenty of terrible things happening over there. Yet this one person tries to
post/comment with a "look what the christians did" type of attitude.

~~~
ivoryst
So your friends have witnessed human sacrifice of children? Get real. If you
dont want to be taken out of context, dont use colorful anectdotes straight
out of a 1850s novel.

