
[video] Interview with James Damore regarding his Diversity Memo - ryan-allen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEDuVF7kiPU
======
EdSharkey
I think Damore is an idealistic (and touchingly sweet, in a way) guy for
believing in his company enough to make a reasoned argument regarding such
supercharged issues as gender and diversity at a big corporation, Google or
otherwise. If you watch the video, you can see what a lamb he is.

It's no surprise he got the axe; there would be no tolerance nor appetite for
his scientific conclusions at any large company.

~~~
13124452
I'm sorry but "scientific" is a pretty big exaggeration here even from a
purely methodological standpoint. the dude does start out trying to support
some of his assertions (albeit seriously misrepresenting at least one of his
sources and using others that are literally Experimental Design 101 textbook
examples of how not to run experiments) which I guess could be construed that
way, but he then supplies no evidence for his conclusions. Note the almost
complete lack of citations or experimental support in the "Suggestions"
section pointing to studies showing his ideas would positively impact the
problems he claims to care about, the lack of any sort of failure-analysis or
exploration of alternatives or discussion outside of the thesis of his
argument. he just states some premises and jumps to a list of unsupported and
barely related conclusions. this can hardly be read as anything other than a
list of political grievances and I don't understand why people keep describing
this as if it were some sort of scientific endeavor.

~~~
EdSharkey
Fascinating. Did you watch the entire linked video on this story? In the video
description, there are quite a few scientific studies linked that back up
Damore's views. But I'm sure you've got some FUD for me on that video as well.

I can do FUD, too. Watch this! Hey 46775335788, what's got you running damage
control so hard on this story that you'd reply to some schmoe who top posted
on a page 3 (doomed) New story? A paycheck perhaps?

What an interesting comment history your throwaway account has - first post on
this New story, eh throwaway?

~~~
13124452
"there are quite a few scientific studies linked"

to support the premises maybe, but even then the conclusions are still largely
unrelated to the premises and unsupported by any of the studies cited. I don't
see anything particularly hackerly about defending bad attempts at science and
have been continually attacked for this opinion for some reason I'm sure has
nothing to do with people on both sides ignoring scientific procedure when it
comes to either of their political interests.

~~~
EdSharkey
You disagree with the conclusions, what a surprise. News flash: your
passionate disagreement doesn't make you right or lend you _any_ moral
superiority.

You want to attempt superiority? How about choose a conclusion from the doc or
the video and make your case. Are you purely agenda-fueled? Do you have the
best interests of the future of Google and Google culture at heart? How the
hell should I know, all you've done is throw shade.

Or is being reasonable not required in your case?

------
orionblastar
OK it looks like there is a biological factor to gender based on DNA and
genes. There is also a social aspect of gender that creates gender identity
roles.

I think the social aspect should be called gender identity, and the
science/biological gender be called biological gender. That way they don't get
confused.

I've tried to ask for scientific proof of all of the different genders and got
voted down anywhere I asked. I was told that gender is a social construct,
etc.

So this is something that has scientific and social aspects to it, and gender
is more complex than a simple black and white model, as these new social roles
of gender is a spectrum of grays or colors.

There was a discussion on HN about a list of genders, and I collected from
Facebook and other sources to make this list:
[https://github.com/orionblastar/genderdata](https://github.com/orionblastar/genderdata)

Over 150+ genders that people identify as hope I did not miss any. Feel free
to email me or add to the repository via forking and pushing.

~~~
tschwimmer
How do you curate a list like this? #4 is 'Apache Helicopter' which is the
subject of a well-known copypasta. 'Dickbutt' and 'The Artist Formerly Known
as Prince' seem suspect as well.

~~~
orionblastar
If I remove them, then people will give me trouble for removing them, or not
adding them in the first place.

I asked for scientific proof of each gender, but apparently, there is none.
Since it is a social construct, I am told that those names are legit for
genders, and apparently, some Redditors made some names that should not have
gone in, but if I didn't add them I'd be doxed, etc. It is also a way to find
out of someone stole the list, that is the way the Trivial Pursuit people did
by adding questions with wrong answers, etc.

------
13124452
ah yes, those famous evolutionary biological factors diminishing womens'
interest in computers that only started showing up right around 1985 and
didn't proportionately affect any other field for some reason since computer
science is completely unique in its demands on the female brain.

[1] [https://i.imgur.com/pkZPrOI.png](https://i.imgur.com/pkZPrOI.png)

~~~
orionblastar
I think 1985 is the golden age of the 8 bit home computer from Atari and
Commodore to dump the main computer on the market for under $300 or $200 and
make up for it by selling disk drives, etc at a higher cost. The Apple //c and
IBM PCjr came out around the same time. Marketed to boys and not girls.
Something to do with video games in the mid1970s that fueled the race to make
an 8 bit home computer, or rather a cheaper home computer than the rest.

I talked to some women who grew up in that era, most of them claim teachers,
leaders, etc told them they could not do math science as well as boys to get
into liberal arts instead of computer science, etc. Somehow the education
system pushed the females away from computer science and pushed boys towards
computer science as well.

Computer Science used to be dominated by women in the 1950s and 1960s. Let me
cite the website your image comes from so we can get a background on it:

[http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-...](http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-
women-stopped-coding)

There are other sources to consider: [https://www.goodcall.com/news/women-in-
computer-science-0982...](https://www.goodcall.com/news/women-in-computer-
science-09821)

[https://www.theatlantic.com/video/index/519426/how-did-
tech-...](https://www.theatlantic.com/video/index/519426/how-did-tech-become-
so-male-dominated/)

[http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/what-happened-
all-w...](http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/what-happened-all-women-
computer-science-1-180953111/)

[http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/computer-
programmin...](http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/computer-programming-
used-to-be-womens-work-718061/)

[https://readwrite.com/2014/09/02/women-in-computer-
science-w...](https://readwrite.com/2014/09/02/women-in-computer-science-why-
so-few/)

When you look at it in black and white as males and females, you are
considered to be a bigot or sexist by SJWs. There is this gender studies thing
that says gender is a social construct, etc which just clobbered Google and
James Damore. In a way this is politics, culture, and society trying to push
back against white males that dominate STEM and Computer Science etc. Of
course the same people who want all of the other genders having these good
paying jobs don't understand that males study computers, programming,
technology in the same way females and others study fashion, social skills,
makeup tips, clothing, etc.

Most males just wear a jeans and t-shirt and then tennis shoes. Albert
Einstien used to say picking each clothes every day is a waste of time, so he
had many copies of the same suits and clothes so he didn't have to choose each
day. Males shower, go to the bathroom, and shave and brush teeth in 15 minutes
in the morning, and females and other genders have to pick clothes, apply
makeup, comb hair, use toilet, shower, brush teeth, and other stuff that may
take over an hour. This is due to what society claims males and females (and
others) have to do to get their looks, culture, social roles, etc. So it is a
male dominated society run by females?

Well anyway, we have to find a way to encourage females and other non-male,
non-binary, etc genders to study computer science the way males study it. It
is a lot of work, and heavily in politics, culture, society, etc.

(WTH? I'm voted down for citing links on the subject and giving facts?)

~~~
EdSharkey
There's a campaign on to kill this story. You got downvoted because you cared
enough to write a lot. Don't take it personal, there are powerful agendas at
stake here.

~~~
orionblastar
I'm trying to get equality for genders, and find proof and examples as to why
some genders don't do as well in computer science as others.

My intent was to help educate and start a discussion on it. Apparently, there
is strong political kung-fu here or something.

