

Ask HN: Failed to Bootstrap, Now What? - timmorgan

HN, I've been trying to bootstrap my startup for the past 3 years, with little or no success, and I don't know what to do next.<p>I host a SaaS for churches that provides a walled online directory and social network for their members. The product is fairly mature, being in use at my own mid-sized church since 2006.<p>The problem is, my customer churn rate is horrendous, and growth is almost non-existent. Most churches cancel within a year of signing up.<p>It turns out that getting churches to initially part with their money isn't nearly as hard as convincing them that the investment of TIME is worth it for them and their members. Building an online community takes effort on the part of the church to promote it, and most give up within months. It's not unlike a forum or Facebook group; just sticking something out there doesn't draw in anyone.<p>So, the bad:<p>- Little or no significant growth.<p>- Product doesn't provide enough immediate value to customers.<p>- It's a time sink in support and I'm getting burned out, considering there isn't a viable business at the end of the tunnel.<p>Now, the good:<p>+ The business is in the black (barely), and it doesn't have any debt.<p>+ I still have my day job, which pays the bills.<p>+ The product does have a (tiny) bit of name recognition among church techies.<p>I see my options as:<p>* Pivot the product toward something less social that provides immediate value to church staff/leaders (rather than members), e.g. Church Management Solution (database).<p>* Provide some notice, and shut down the service. Keep my day job and find some other hobby.<p>...and maybe there's an option I'm overlooking...<p>HN, give me some advice. What would you do if you poured every spare hour into something for an Internet eon, and came to the realization that what you're doing isn't going to pay off?<p>[edit: formatting]
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michaeldwp
I would suggest that you:

(1) Talk with / survey your customers to find out what's actually going on.
Based on your description, it doesn't seem like you've actually talked with
them. You should find out _why_ they're not spending the required time on the
site, and / or why they're not renewing their subscriptions.

Figure out why they initially used the site, and what value they thought
they'd get; and also why they don't feel that they're getting that value any
more.

Base your questions on the one found at <http://survey.io> .

(2) Figure out the root of the problems that are causing these support
requests, and fix them. (E.g. could you clarify the wording on some pages? Are
people not using the site properly?). This way, you don't have to spend so
much time on support.

But I do agree with some of the others, a pivot of some sort sounds like it
could help. Otherwise, if _after_ you've talked with your customers, you don't
feel that you should keep this going, move onto something else.

Edit: Also, remember that the growth really comes down to the marketing. Have
you been in touch with bloggers? How are you advertising it? Doing any SEO? Or
is it purely word of mouth? And if it's word of mouth, do you have any viral
components in there to help people spread the word?

------
proexploit
Initially I would say pivot, but I always wouldn't force a pivot (e.g. try to
think of a similar idea, make that instead). The fact that your product is
well-known in your niche means that you've got a slightly easier job at
marketing a similar project.

Other options you could consider: A) How technical is the support you get
caught doing? Is it something only you can do? Would hiring a technical
support "employee" via oDesk or Elance make sense? Would an open forum for
support (if it doesn't already exist) help users solve simpler problems? Can
you reasonably charge a support / maintenance fee (Charging for exceeding X
hours of support per month)? B) Are there other ways to encourage the time
commitment and get churches to keep using? Are there small features or changes
you could make to encourage involvement?

What's your motivation for creating the product? If you really believe in it,
you could find ways to minimize your current involvement while building
another smaller service that may not mean as much to you but generate more
cashflow and allow you to pursue projects.

Most of those questions are rhetorical but hopefully they help you narrow down
the issue and possible solutions.

~~~
timmorgan
Good questions. Thanks!

------
robfitz
_Pivot the product toward something less social that provides immediate value
to church staff/leaders_

I would go with this one, if you still care about the space. You probably have
a lot of customer understanding and a good network.

Remember, though, that pivoting doesn't just mean tweaking the features.
Sometimes it means throwing the thing out entirely and going after a totally
different customer/problem with new focus.

 _What would you do if you poured every spare hour into something for an
Internet eon, and came to the realization that what you're doing isn't going
to pay off?_

Speaking entirely personally, I would toss the product and build something new
on top of what I've learned about customer needs. Keep the old site around
long enough to cross-sell and upsell existing audience into the new offering
which is solving a problem they [presumably] have and reveals its value
quicker than the current product. Then you're only losing your development
time, but you've been able to keep all of your sales, conversation, and
strategy time.

------
acrum
Well, you are competing with a behemoth with Zondervan publishing and The City
(<http://www.onthecity.org>), and your pricing seems to be only marginally
better (for hosting.. I just now noticed the part at the bottom about being
able to host it yourself for free). Do you know how many people are using it
for free vs. paying for it? You may want to re-think the open source model,
though I can't imagine there are TOO many churches that would want to bother
hosting it themselves.

You may be better served finding a smaller niche and doing it really well,
rather than having such a huge feature set that may be overwhelming to people
on their first visit. You don't necessarily have to pivot to something less
social, but I'm sure you can do some research and find out something that you
already provide that church staff think could be much easier, and make that an
emphasis.

~~~
timmorgan
Yes, the product is open source, and there are a handful of churches using (or
trying to use) the self-hosted option. I don't have good numbers on that, but
I think you're right -- more churches are paying me to host than doing it
themselves.

The City, and just recently, The Table are both bigger competitors.

...so you're saying, reduce the feature set and make the smaller product more
focused? That's a good idea; thanks for the advice!

~~~
acrum
You don't have to reduce the feature set by a lot, but you can at least put
the technical features under an 'advanced' section or something so non-
technical users are not intimidated.. or you can take them off completely.
Facebook integration would also help, I'm sure.. Can't tell if you have it or
not from the site but it looks like just twitter. The ability to share events
and such on FB that would take members to your site would help (I would
think).

~~~
timmorgan
You're right: no Facebook integration yet.

I've been so discouraged about the whole thing lately, thinking I need to shut
it down and do something else. Though, it sounds like, you're saying I'd be
better off making some significant changes in my approach and seeing if that
works.

I just wonder... when do I say, this isn't going to work. I guess that's the
whole point of entrepreneurship... not giving up. :-)

[edit: not sure why I thought HN might advise me to give up. :-) ]

------
brudgers
> _"walled online directory and social network for their members."_

Maybe a walled online directory is a good idea. A walled social network is
stillborn - you might as well do a private list-serve and save people the
trouble of logging in.

~~~
timmorgan
Well, the idea was to synchronize member info with churches' existing
membership database, so that everyone is already ON the network -- they just
have to create a password.

It really worked with our own church, but took some effort to promote among
the Sunday School classes and small groups -- they were really the driving
force for adoption.

Point is: it took some effort outside of just paying a hosting bill -- that's
what most churches don't stick around long enough to see it pay off.

[edit: oh, and the product does have a email-based list-serve feature as well,
which is one way a lot of members use the product]

------
Mz
_...and maybe there's an option I'm overlooking..._

Since you know exactly what the issue is (assuming your analysis is correct),
maybe you could work on resolving that and see if it takes off. Here is the
issue you identified:

 _It turns out that getting churches to initially part with their money isn't
nearly as hard as convincing them that the investment of TIME is worth it for
them and their members. Building an online community takes effort on the part
of the church to promote it, and most give up within months. It's not unlike a
forum or Facebook group; just sticking something out there doesn't draw in
anyone._

Every time I see something like this, I wish I could figure out how to
capitalize on (ie monetize) my ability to get conversation going and keep
conversation going in online forums. My ability to do that is ironic since I
actually suck at _starting_ conversations of my own (see my submissions on HN
for an example of how lame I am at that). Yet, I know how to respond to other
people and shape the forum culture to make it warm and welcoming and encourage
people to open up. I have had repeated experiences where I joined some
existing list or forum which had very little traffic in spite of significant
membership and within a few months of joining traffic and membership increased
significantly. Typically, the owner then says something along the lines of "I
have no idea what happened but all of a sudden we are growing". I know exactly
what happened and never get credit for it.

Anyway, my only point is that it is possible to intentionally make community
happen and increase traffic, usefulness, etc. Teaching members how to do that
would make this stickier. And probably would take less time and energy than
the three years you have already sunk into this.

Peace and good luck.

~~~
jefflinwood
There probably is a business in there for you if you want it! Call yourself a
"community engagement strategist" or something similar. Build a platform -
write a few online articles, maybe have a video on Youtube and a blog you
write to about community engagement.

Plenty of people are building online communities and sinking lots of money
into development, design, and content, but never getting over the chicken and
egg problem.

I don't know if you have a software background, but the way to really go about
making this a business would be to create a community analytics tool that you
could use to quantify your success.

~~~
Mz
No, I don't have a software background. I think one of the problems that many
forums run into is that the folks qualified to write the software and deal
with the technical support are frequently not the best people for dealing with
people. Then they try to come up with technical solutions to people problems
and it really doesn't work. The other issue is that most people I have met who
are both people-person's and highly socially insightful tend to be master
manipulators. This will get you some initial success but in the long run it is
a poison pill.

I don't meet too many people who are both highly socially observant _and_ have
no goal of manipulating and maneuvering people. Fostering community requires
you to be socially aware and also good at respecting people's boundaries.
Those two things seem to not coincide too often. So I am not sure how well I
could teach people to do what I do (though I know I could put some info
together to help others with this and have done so on occasion for previous
forums I belonged to). I sometimes fantasize about having people pay me to
join their forum for a few months (edit: or review what they are doing and
give them feedback on improving it). My experience has been that once critical
mass is achieved, the culture becomes self-perpetuating. I can breathe life
into it but it does not die just because I leave. On one email list, I
returned after a two year absence and cultural things I had started were still
there. (Technically, that's the only place I ever got any significant
recognition for what I do. I was a moderator and people very much noticed how
the place went from a cold atmosphere with anemic traffic to warm and lively
in just a week once I began moderating.)

Someone told me today I have "no business sense". That's probably true. I
can't for the life of me figure out how to turn this into a business
opportunity in spite of how frequently this type of problem gets discussed on
HN (or rears its ugly head in various forums).

~~~
jefflinwood
What it sounds like you want to do is be one step up from the "community
manager" job.

It's definitely possible to self-create your own role here - I would imagine
there are probably 50 people on this board who would pay you to do exactly
that job on a limited basis. You just need to be out in front of them with
exactly what you can do.

That takes a little self-marketing - what if you worked with the original
poster here to turn around several of his largest customers?

~~~
Mz
I'm not a religious person, so I'm not sure how viable it would be to work
with church groups. Maybe it would be fine. I just don't know.

It isn't that I want to be a community manager. It's just that community
building is a little like raising kids: "Do as I say, not as I do" is one of
the most ineffective (and even counterproductive) ways to try to pursue the
goal. So what you see a lot of in public forums is that moderators and owners
get frustrated with bad behavior and then publicly get all over someone's case
for it in an effort to "improve" the situation. This typically amounts to
putting out the fire with gasoline.

Anyway, the point is that giving people examples is the single most effective
means to foster community. Way more effective, efficient, and fast than trying
to tell people what to do. So I am not sure that it would be reproducible to
simply put together an information packet or peruse the forum and critique
what they are doing. Those might offer some improvements but the single most
effective, efficient, long-lasting means I know of to breathe life into a
forum and turn a little pile of twigs into an impressive bonfire is to just be
there myself and do what I do. I have no idea how I would price that or how
well that would work for forums on topics I have zero knowledge about.

But, yes, I have been seriously considering trying to find some means to turn
this into a business opportunity because it does appear to be an unusual skill
and there is clearly a "market" (ie people who need this and don't know how to
do it themselves). Researching that and thinking on it is the real reason for
this submission of mine: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2126209>

Thank you for the feedback.

