
Young People Are Going to Save Us All from Office Life - dpflan
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/17/style/generation-z-millennials-work-life-balance.html
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arbitrary_name
I work as a consultant, with sone stints in industry.

My 2 cents is: \- trust me to manage my time as needed. If i dont have any
urgent priorities, i will drop down a gear. If i have priority tasks, they
will get done on time and to spec, guaranteed. \- give me flexibility, it is
worth more than money. Letting me work a day or two remotely, start or finish
late can save me hours of commute time, flight costs, etc. It shows me you
value me as a person, and not just me sitting in a desk. \- understand that i
consider my work holistically: for example, letting me bail early on fridays
gives me a level of joy that helps me advocate for you as an employer and
makes me forgive a lot of your shortcomings.

All in all, us young people are not doing anything revolutionary but sometimes
se arr more willing to cut through the bs and take what we need in order to be
able to mentally and emotionally give what is demanded.

~~~
lostjohnny
> trust me to manage my time as needed

the 99% of jobs need the time to manage you, not the contrary.

they are not task based, they are presence or hourly based.

If you go to the bank, they need to be there.

If you go to the hospital, they have to be there.

If you go to a bar, they'll be there.

From x to y.

It's not about time management, it's about presence management.

> It shows me you value me as a person, and not just me sitting in a desk

Most of the time sitting at the desk is THE job.

The guys that clean my office before I arrive would love to be sitting at the
desk.

> Letting me work a day or two remotely, start or finish late can save me
> hours of commute time, flight costs, etc

That sounds good, but apart from edge cases, living close to where you work is
almost always a smarter move than commuting.

And most of the things you're talking about are easily gained with time.

To trust people you have to know people.

At my current job I had to punch in and out 4 times a day, 9-13, 14-18.

After 9 months, more or less it, became 2 times a day, when you arrive in the
morning and when you come back from lunch.

Now I get in at 11 and go out at 17, with at least an hour of lunch break.

Nobody says anything anymore.

------
jdlyga
In the 90s, it was cubicles. The Dilbert and Office Space sensory deprivation
chamber.

Nowadays, it's the noisy and distracting open office environments where you're
scrunched next to people who you probably aren't even working with.

In the future, it's leaning towards remote work. Which sounds great on paper.
But there's another whole level of tyranny with that. Only getting 15 minutes
per day face to face with coworkers over video chat, the rest done
asynchronously over Slack is very impersonal. Though maybe I'd trade that for
being able to live in an actual house with a pool instead of squished into a
tiny apartment.

~~~
tastyfreeze
I'm not gen-z but grew up with IRC and instant messaging as a normal
communication modes. Asynchronous communication is not a problem at all.
Playing MUDs and MMOs and spending a ridiculous amount of time online has
taught me that personal connections do not require face to face interactions.
Asynchronous communication allows me to choose if/when to respond. I find that
much more preferable to office coworkers just popping in to say "hi" or
needing to wear blinders and headphones just to get some semblance of privacy.

The biggest benefit of remote work is being able to live wherever the hell you
want and do work that you enjoy.

~~~
chapium
Being able to work async and ignore everyone is a huge reason not to be
remote.

It drags out simple interactions over time, very unfocused. In a company where
everyone ignores everyone else leads to pits of ticket queues that never get
resolved. Each team that does this multiplies the effect.

------
yelloweyes
I'm 27, never had a "proper" 9-5 type of job, and I've always wondered how do
people with these types of jobs do things like taking their dog to the vet. In
my country if you ask for time off to take your dog to the vet you'll
definitely get weird looks. So how do they do it? Just lie and say you need to
go to the bank? Just let their dog in pain?

~~~
cardiffspaceman
Your bank has the power to stay in business with only 10am-3pm hours, your dog
has the "power" to bear the pain until you get up the nerve to lie and say
you're going to the bank.

I've heard that in the advanced nation of Germany lots of useful businesses
aren't open when ordinary workers have time to go visit them, such as banks
and electronics stores and grocery stores. If you work an extra hour for some
reason you can't pick up food except at a stall in the train station?

~~~
treden
As a "late" chronotype living in Germany (Bavaria specifically - different
states have different laws) I can confirm this. Also, the government makes
lots of other decisions on the putative behalf of the individual. There's more
involuntary tradeoffs (imho) that don't necessarily work out in your favor.
The argument is that it's better for society, but implicitly that means
everyone has to subscribe to the same narrowly defined concept of society.

------
eumenides1
What I like about young people is their unapologetic way of asking for things
whether they deserve it or not.

Sometimes, it's cute. "I'd like a day off" out of no-where. Sometimes, it's
ridiculous. "I'd like a day off to go day drinking with my buddies" Sometimes,
it makes me re-think what and why we do things. This is how we move forward.
Case in point, "I'd like a day off. I need a mental health day because someone
tried to break into my house last night and I'm freaked out"

Mental health days a total luxury, but if you think about it, there are days
we need off because we are going to unproductive regardless. It can be abused,
but it can also be useful. Context and Manager discretion matters.

Young People aren't going to save us from the office, but they are going to
challenge our assumptions and it's our duty to listen and change the office as
needed.

~~~
imgabe
As a former entitled young person (still entitled, but not so young anymore),
I've made it a point never to ask for a day off. I will _tell_ employers when
I am taking a day off.

> asking for things whether they deserve it or not.

> Sometimes, it's cute. "I'd like a day off" out of no-where.

This is a troubling attitude, and I hope it's not what you meant. Does their
compensation agreement include PTO? Then they "deserve" their day off. There
is no other requirement. There is no explanation or justification needed. As
an employer, you may _request_ that I reschedule my PTO if there is an urgent
business need, which I may or may not do if possible. But I've never
understood the attitude that someone needs to come up with a reason to use the
compensation they've rightfully earned. Would you hold their paycheck over
their head and demand a reason why they should be allowed to spend it?

~~~
notus
Sometimes company policy can get in the way of mental health days if you call
them that. They will usually want to think of it as a sick day instead of PTO.
While I know not every company does this, every company I've worked for
requires a certain amount of notice for PTO which depends primarily on how
much PTO you plan to take off. However when I use sick days I tell them I'm
using a sick day and don't ask.

~~~
drdeadringer
I consider someone lucky and fortunate if they have sick days in addition to
PTO days, if either at all. Yes, American.

------
rootusrootus
A smart company would see this as a win. By getting more flexible work
schedules and locations, people are allowing work to happen during what would
have been off time, even during vacation. For a lot of jobs this probably
works out to more work getting done than a forced 8-hours-in-the-seat plan.

~~~
dominotw
I've worked at way too many places where ppl just chill at home most of the
time.

~~~
mreome
In my experience these kind of people just chill in the office if they are
forced to come in, but _appear_ busy by proximity and association with their
coworkers. When the most important metric is work-done and not butt-in-seat-
hours, it can actually be easier for (effective) managers to filter out the
ineffective employees.

------
pacala
Life is grinding. We grind an office life because it's more comfortable than
grinding the earth to grow food. We grind the earth because it's more
comfortable than grinding the wilderness to gather food. We think we'd like is
to roam the wilderness while expending the energy level of an office job. Not
possible. No grinding, no life.

~~~
levythe
To turn it around, if I'm going to grind _for you,_ I had sure as hell better
be properly compensated for the grind. If I hustle to get you what you need,
you bet you're ass I'm going to expect a commensurate return. If there isn't a
mutual benefit to my hustling, why would I put it in? What makes you so
entitled to my time and effort that you can't make an equitable exchange for
it?

~~~
pacala
Absolutely! Forget about you and me, the best grind is for one's loved ones.

------
Tade0
There are pitfalls in this approach as well.

Each second of my work time is tracked via Toggl, which creates a good few
second order effects.

For example gone is "pooping on company time" \- even when I'm in the office.

Also it's currently 23:12 in my timezone and I still have more than an hour of
work to do. This is something that happens more often than I would like to
admit.

That being said having to actually go places to work and arrive there at a
specified hour at that would be hell for me.

------
foobar_
9-6 is slavery. Slaves never had the luxury of choosing their time.

~~~
ravenstine
I wouldn't exactly call it slavery, but it's indentured servitude at the
societal level. There's no company forcing anyone to work for them, and
society technically doesn't force you to work, but if you want to be a part of
society you're almost certainly going to be doing something you don't like
from 9 to 5 and commuting for 2 hours. You can stay on the plantation and have
your basic needs met if you willingly serve the system. I'm not making a value
judgment by pointing this out, but that's the way it is.

~~~
toasterlovin
> but that's the way it is.

And the way it's always been. And the way it will always be as long as humans
are self-interested and in competition with each other for resources. Welcome
to life (it's the same for all other species, btw)!

------
SomeoneIT
I think most people aren't seeing the forest through the trees here.

Why do we work? To take care of our basic needs so we can have as much time as
possible to live life, with the maximum ability (usually in the form of money)
to do what makes us happy. Humanity has fallen into a trap where we think that
we NEED a job. We need to take care of our basic needs, and nothing more
unless we want to.

We're getting to the point where, if we applied tech as such, it can start to
handle most of our basic needs for us. Instead of having the mindset that
robots are "stealing our jobs," why not look at it as a robot has opened up a
lot more time for us to live our lives? We're unable to look at things this
way because humanity has not yet reevaluated the way it integrates money and
technology into society. A few people or companies are allowed to control the
tech humanity has invented, and we're forced to pay them for its use. Tech is
supposed to make our lives easier and instead we are allowing it to make our
lives harder and more stressful.

Money and labor within society need a complete overhaul ASAP. I think young
people are simply waking up to the fact that their lives are finite and they
can't wait 400 years for such changes to occur. It's now or it doesn't matter.

------
tw1010
Young people are the inexperienced, they're the ones who're gonna get squeezed
into whatever shape employers set up. I used to think we were in for a big
corporate culture shift, to more informality, more power to the worker, more
acceptance of neurodiversity. That was in college, but my opinion completely
switched once I entered the workforce and realized how the levers of food-
controlling power work to either filter out or implicitly threaten any
behavior that isn't suitable for the goals of those at the top.

------
cryptozeus
One thing I see as potential issue is isolation. Unless you have great social
life around where you live, this kind of remote work becomes too lonely.
Another thing is that I just dont see how something that requires group
discussion and white boarding can be done without any time commitment from
other remote employees. For work that can be done in silos may benefit with
this kind of approach. May be I am wrong.

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synlatexc
Glad some companies are coming around to to this. People have different values
and work styles, and for too long there has been just one option on the white-
collar work menu: 40-60 hours, mostly at a desk.

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mikelyons
There are people out there who make a choice between an unauthorized day off,
and suicide on the lunch break ...

------
bighi
> A client calls me at 8 o’clock at night and I’m happy to talk to them

It doesn't look like saving us from anything. It seems horrible.

~~~
mreome
I think it only sounds horrible if you frame it as "I was forced to do work at
8pm and had to be in at 6am the next day." What the article is describing is
more "I got a call at 8pm and _decided_ to work on the issue that evening _so
I could sleep in the next morning_ , run some errands and come in to work at
noon." It might not be for everyone, but doesn't sound to bad to me.

~~~
vincent-toups
In my experience it never works this way. Its almost always "take time off
_later_" but later never comes.

~~~
mreome
True, but this article is talking about shifting norms and the future of work.
Doesn't seem like too crazy of an idea to hope/work for a future where the
norm is a set of goals for your week/month and you being allowed to largely
set your own schedule as needed to achieve them.

~~~
vincent-toups
It seems crazy in the context of an economic system which combines both a
psychotic pursuit of profit and productivity on the part of an ever smaller
ownership class with the utterly dull minded petty desire to be dominant of
your average boss.

~~~
mreome
What the article is getting at though is that the younger generations(s)
entering the work-force seem to be less willing to accept that "psychotic
pursuit of profit and productivity". This is why so many people seem critical
of Millennial's work ethic -- they have trouble understating that someone can
simply be unwilling to sacrifice their own health an happiness in order to
make their employers more profits.

Change can seem impossible the face of entrenched opposition, but change is
inevitable. It's never crazy to hope for, and work towards, a positive change.

------
asjw
No, they are not.

They are just going to make things miserable for the next generation, like
everybody else do did.

