
Norway's electric cars zip to new record: almost a third of all sales - jonbaer
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-norway-autos/norways-electric-cars-zip-to-new-record-almost-a-third-of-all-sales-idUSKCN1OW0YP
======
klausjensen
Also interesting fact: Roughly another third of cars sold in Norway in 2018
were hybrid, taking hybrid+electric to a combined two-thirds of all cars sold.

Only one third were pure fossil fuel. That is quite remarkable.

Source: [https://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/editorcharts/NORWAY-
AU...](https://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/editorcharts/NORWAY-
AUTOS/0H001JT473W8/index.html)

~~~
martinald
Not really, if you tax cars at ~100% on registration (eg: $50k car has $50k of
tax on it for a total price of $100k), like Norway does, then it is pretty
easy to get adoption when you zero rate or reduce that tax for (PH)EVs.

It's effectively an enormous tax credit for EVs. I'm sure of the US govt
increased the federal tax credit for EVs from $7.5k to $40-60k, you'd see
similar adoption in the US too.

~~~
throwaway12iii
Fossil fuel cars get a huge discount for causing pollution and health
problems. If other countries subsidized the damage that fossil fuel cars do as
much as the USA then I'm sure there would be similar adoption as in the USA
too.

~~~
merpnderp
A brand new Ford Raptor will clean the air in most cities. You'd have to drive
that 465HP fuel guzzling toy over 3,887 miles to equal the particulate output
of 30 minutes of yard work with a 2 stroke engine.

So not as much of a discount as you might have thought.

~~~
mavhc
It removes CO2? magic

~~~
wongarsu
Not CO2, but particulate matter [1]: basically tiny solid particles caused by
exhaust, tires etc that stay suspended in the air. They are linked to a range
of health issues in the concentrations found in many urban cities. When you
hear about cities banning diesel cars or ICE cars or old cars, that's a
measure to reduce suspended particulate matter, not CO2. But luckily unlike
CO2, particulate matter can be caught by a HEPA air filter.

1:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particulates](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particulates)

------
resalisbury
Electric car subsidies are generally regressive [0] and Norway is no
exception.

Even worse, Norway subsidizes electric cars, in part, by defunding public
transit. This seems silly from an environmental perspective, but it's nice if
you're a wealthy Norwegian and want to avoid paying tolls while owning a
luxury car.

"[The environmental spokesman for the Labor party] estimates that Oslo loses
about [$30mm USD equivalent] a year from electric cars avoiding toll payments.
At the same time, about [$80mm USD equivalent] from toll booths goes towards
paying for public transport each year."[1]

There are much more effective ways to decarbonize transportation than
subsidizing _cars_ , electric or otherwise. The most compelling policy tool we
have is a Carbon Tax. There is near universal consensus among economists on
this fact. [2]

[0] [https://www.vox.com/2015/11/24/9792474/energy-tax-credits-
in...](https://www.vox.com/2015/11/24/9792474/energy-tax-credits-inequitable)
[1]
[https://www.ft.com/content/84e54440-3bc4-11e7-821a-6027b8a20...](https://www.ft.com/content/84e54440-3bc4-11e7-821a-6027b8a20f23)
[2] [http://www.igmchicago.org/surveys/carbon-
tax](http://www.igmchicago.org/surveys/carbon-tax)

~~~
manofstick
(Edit: pondering the down-vote. Is it because you don't like what I am saying,
or that it's factually not true?)

The problem with the Carbon Tax is that right wing parties across the world
(well at least in the Anglo-zone that I know about) have demonized it - even
when they supposedly believe in market-based solutions.

So a regressive measure is unfortunately the only (well...) politically viable
solution.

Tolls and other car taxes can be reintroduced slowly after the transition is
complete.

Yes this is "stupid", but unless you can change the psychology of the
populous, then that's about it.

~~~
barry-cotter
Carbon taxes have been passed and revoked in Australia, Canada and France.
They have been rejected in ballots twice in Washington. It’s not a right wing
thing. People just really hate taxes and don’t want to change their behaviour.
Talk is cheap.

[https://insideclimatenews.org/news/09112016/washington-
state...](https://insideclimatenews.org/news/09112016/washington-state-carbon-
tax-i-732-ballot-measure)

> Washington State Voters Reject Nation's First Carbon Tax

> The measure was unpopular with social justice groups and divided
> environmental activists, many arguing it did not go far enough in promoting
> clean energy.

> Among those who decided not to support the carbon tax were Sierra Club, the
> Washington Environmental Council, the Union of Concerned Scientists, Climate
> Solutions, and 350Seattle.org.

[https://crosscut.com/2018/11/washington-voters-reject-
carbon...](https://crosscut.com/2018/11/washington-voters-reject-carbon-fees-
second-time)

> Washington voters reject carbon fees for second time

~~~
jeromegv
This hasn't been passed and revoked in Canada.

The Carbon tax has been rejected by some provinces but the federal government
is still moving ahead with it and they have the constitutional right to do.

~~~
barry-cotter
You’re correct. I wouldn’t hold out much hope for the tax being imposed and
lasting though.

[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/02/justin-
trudeau...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/02/justin-trudeau-
environmental-record-canada-election-year)

> Doug Ford, Ontario’s premier, has repeatedly called carbon pricing “the
> worst tax ever” and at least five provinces have banded together to fight
> the tax in the courts, a battle legal experts believe they will lose.

> Along with their provincial counterparts, the federal Conservatives have
> pledged to repeal any carbon taxes, with Scheer dismissing the policy as an
> “election gimmick”. This fight comes amid reports that Canada is not on pace
> to meet its 2030 climate goals.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_tax](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_tax)

> In the 2008 Canadian federal election, a carbon tax proposed by Liberal
> Party leader Stéphane Dion, known as the Green Shift, became a central issue
> in the campaign. It would have been revenue-neutral, with increased taxation
> on carbon being balanced by tax cuts for individual citizens. However, it
> proved to be unpopular and contributed to the defeat of Liberal Party with
> its worst share of the popular vote since Confederation.

------
dagss
And this is despite all the options of electric cars on the market failing to
live up to the average Norwegian's criteria.

Many Norwegians are still waiting for a "real" electric car to become
available. Where a real car is defined by:

\- Tesla range

\- 450 liter+ luggage room

\- Roof rack/box

\- Tow bar

In particular with Tesla you get EITHER the tow bar (model X) OR the roof box
(Model S). So even IF you splurge on a luxury priced car, it feels like
compromising vs getting a gasoline car.

(Also Tesla is "very large", it does not fit comfortably in parking spaces;
180 cm wide cars are really a lot more convenient than 200 cm around here).

The moment anyone is ready to just deliver something like an electric
Volkswagen Passat station wagon they will sell as many as they want in Norway.
But, every single announcement fails to meet these criteria. It is a standard
that lots and lots of gasoline cars fullfill, but currently no EVs. (Audi
e-Tron is first, but still has a too large footprint, and also too expensive
for most).

~~~
sillypuddy
Why does the average Norwegian need a roof rack and a tow bar?

~~~
dagss
Roof rack: Skis. (And the Model X ski box behind car on tow bar solution look
unwieldy and ridiculous, but there are still lots of them around here, as the
only EV compromise that sort of ticks all the boxes.)

And kayaks too.

Tow bar: Not sure what others do without them. Furniture shops lend out
trailers for free so that you can take your new sofa with you back home. I
recently transported the materials for building my new front deck on a
trailer. I tend to rent a trailer for taking things to the landfill/recycling
facilities especially when renovating my home (and Norwegians do a lot of home
renovation..). When helping young people move a trailer is all it takes. Etc
etc. I used a tow bar at least five times a year for misc errands. (Now I have
a Model S and have to leech on neighbors)

I am not sure why this is different and how e.g. US or German or French
culture would be digferent.. I guess the alternative is paying others for
delivery/disposal, doing less handiwork oneself, and (in the case of US)
buying pickup trucks that in no way will fit on Norwegian roads and parking
lots.

~~~
henrikschroder
Trailers are pretty much unheard of in the US. You either have or borrow a
pickup truck instead, because everyone has one or knows someone that has one.

As a result, almost no cars in the US has a tow bar. Except pickup trucks.
That don't really need them. Because you haul stuff directly in the truck.

~~~
alistairSH
The reason most US cars lack hitch receivers is liability. In most of Europe,
it is expected you drive slower when towing a trailer. Not so in the US. Even
the same models have different tow ratings (usually zero in the US) - see VW
Sportwagon for example (rated to 3500lbs in most of EU, and not rated at all
in US, despite being the exact same car).

~~~
henrikschroder
It's not just expected, it's the law. If you're driving with a trailer,
different speed limits apply, you can't follow the road signs.

------
outside1234
It is a no-brainer there because they tax cars so heavily that it doesn't cost
more to go electric. This is not organic demand but heavy market shaping by
the government.

Not saying that is bad but it is not a signal of anything.

~~~
unicornporn
> it is not a signal of anything.

It is a signal that politics and policies[1] can make a difference, right?

[1] [https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/jul/02/norway-
electri...](https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/jul/02/norway-electric-
cars-subsidies-fossil-fuel)

~~~
JKCalhoun
That's it exactly. Unless Norway has some sort of autocratic dictatorship, the
people are voting for representatives that support these measures.

Very much a signal.

~~~
hn_throwaway_99
That said, Norway is pretty-ethnically homogeneous country with a strong
national identity and a population just below Wisconsin. I don't really think
the political lessons from Norway are necessarily applicable at large.

~~~
thinkcontext
There will be lessons. Off the top of my head:

\- Relation of EV miles driven to air pollution and related health impacts

\- The effect of increased EV penetration on fossil fuel infrastructure
economics. For example, at what EV penetration do gas stations start to close?

\- Challenges for the grid of charging large numbers of EVs

These lessons won't be universal because Norway is not like the rest of the
world but they do provide useful information for later adopters. If I owned a
chain of gas stations in the US, I'd be very curious about the fate of gas
stations in Norway.

------
jahbrewski
Something I’m genuinely curious about (and don’t know the answer to): how much
better is the entire lifecycle of an EV on the environment versus an ICE, from
raw materials to disposal of the parts? Do we have ways to dispose/recycle the
enormous batteries used to power our EVs? Is the supply chain for the raw
materials any more/less harmful than the supply chain for an ICE?

~~~
clouddrover
VW's future electric cars are based on a modular design they call their "MEB
platform":

[https://electrek.co/2018/09/18/vw-meb-platform-electric-
for-...](https://electrek.co/2018/09/18/vw-meb-platform-electric-for-all-
affordable-evs/)

It allows them to do things like reuse old car batteries in mobile charging
stations:

[https://www.forbes.com/sites/sebastianblanco/2018/12/27/vw-m...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/sebastianblanco/2018/12/27/vw-
mobile-charging-station/)

Battery makers are trying to reduce the amount of cobalt in the their
batteries due to high cost and also because a lot of cobalt comes from regions
in conflict (like Congo):

[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-southkorea-battery-
cobalt...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-southkorea-battery-cobalt-
idUSKBN1AJ0S8)

And car makers are trying to simplify the composition of their electric
motors. BMW's new electric motor doesn't use any rare earths:

[https://insideevs.com/bmw-5th-generation-electric-drive-
extr...](https://insideevs.com/bmw-5th-generation-electric-drive-extremely-
compact/)

------
Drdrdrq
Curious: since EVs are only using stored energy which still comes mostly from
fossil fuels (afaik), is there any research that would show their total
environmental impact per driven mile? That is, if we're burning coal and
transmitting resulting electricity, then storing it in batteries and
transforming it to motion (with all the losses along the way), how much better
off are we compared to the traditional fuel?

~~~
Conlectus
This is called the "Long tailpipe argument", if you want to look into it
further.

My understanding is that EVs are still usually a net win because

1\. Power plants can benefit from economies of scale that individual cars
cannot, making a gas power plant powering EVs better than individual cars
running on gas.

2\. As others have said, it is easier to upgrade power plants than all cars on
the road.

~~~
barbegal
Economies of scale are largely negated by transmission losses. Both in getting
the electricity to the charging point and in conversion to/from chemical
energy in the battery. EVs cab be more efficient due to regeneration though.

Power plants are similar in terms of cost and time consuming to upgrade. There
are around 30 million cars in the uk. Assuming an average electric car cost of
£20,000 that equates to £600 billion and cars tend to be replaced every 15
years (average car age is 8 years). A powerplant costs about £2 for every Watt
installed and the uk needs about 100GW or around £200 billion. A typical large
scale nuclear or wind project can take 5 to 15 years to complete but on
average a powerplant can last 50 years.

A better argument is that in some countries already a large proportion of
electricity comes from renewable sources such as hydroelectric in Norway.
Sadly this doesn't translate to the whole world: China is mostly powered by
coal.

~~~
outworlder
> Economies of scale are largely negated by transmission losses. Both in
> getting the electricity to the charging point and in conversion to/from
> chemical energy in the battery.

Well, gasoline also has "transmission losses": it takes energy to move large
amounts of oil to refineries, then to fuel stations. Such energy is usually
also fossil fuel based.

------
melling
More EV’s will be sold in China this year than the rest of the world combined.

That’s where the action is.

~~~
thefourthchime
Thank god too. The pollution in Bejing is horrible.

~~~
jordache
how much of the pollution in Beijing is contributed by gas vehicles?
Curious...

------
madengr
If they can get to 75% adoption, as stated by one source in the article, that
will accelerate further to 100%. The source states the lack of personal
charges will keep it from 100% adoption, but imagine a 75% reduction the the
amount of gas stations. That will be a pain too, along with increased fuel
costs.

~~~
pi-rat
Gas stations are already noticing this effect[1]. And as a result, they're
pivoting to offering fast charging[2].

[1]: [https://www.aftenposten.no/okonomi/i/yvByQR/Elbilene-
torker-...](https://www.aftenposten.no/okonomi/i/yvByQR/Elbilene-torker-ut-
bensinsalget-i-Oslo-vest) (Paywalled - "EVs are drying up gas sales in Oslo")

[2]: [https://www.dinside.no/motor/vil-firedoble-elbil-ladere-
inne...](https://www.dinside.no/motor/vil-firedoble-elbil-ladere-
innen-2020/70333165)

------
nisuni
If you tax the alternatives high enough, every consumer choice can become the
preferred one!

~~~
netsharc
I think you just figured out how we can save the planet from catastrophic
climate change...

Meat? Tax it up. Plastic (especially single use)? Up. Flights? Up. Highspeed
rail construction? More funding!

~~~
sampo
France tried to increase tax on gasoline, and this happened:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_vests_movement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_vests_movement)

I'd also guess that if any government in the US would increase gasoline taxes
to European levels (more than doubling the gas prices), they would be quickly
voted out in the next elections.

~~~
netsharc
Ah, yeah, true, I guess rich Norway's government has its population's support.
Tragically, Merkel's policy of Austerity Uber Alles across the whole of EU has
made the EU a hated institution from the left as well as from the right, and
my feeling is this is also why the French government is hated by its
population.

------
lgleason
Interesting story related to this. I was in a Chevy dealership in Clearwater
FL buying a Vokt on Monday. The internet sales manager was telling me how he
recently sold 5 bolts to a customer in Norway. Given the reduced demand in the
US and increased over there it kind of makes sense, but was interesting to
see.

~~~
eisa01
Yeah, GM didn't want to sell any Opel Ampera-E's in Europe.

Would have easily been the best selling car in 2017 if they bothered to sell
them in Norway.

------
dagss
On the other hand, the number of cars per Norwegian has increased by 18% since
2005, and the trend is continued growth in cars per capita.

So the EVs are not displacing fossil fuel cars, they come in addition.
(Probably there would have been even more fossil fuel cars without these EVs,
but it is not clear cut)

------
edwinwee
I was in Oslo a couple weeks ago—was surprised that nearly every Uber I took
was electric (even Teslas).

------
xte
A small game:

\- how much distance you cover in car every day?

\- at how much speed?

\- with how many energy heavy thing powered on (like AC/clima)?

Try to answer to find if you can afford a sole/primary battery powered today's
car. Also check it's price.

After try to look at statistics: how many people actually buy full battery-
powered cars in percentage by country? How many are essentially forced to buy
hybrid models simply because of marketing choice? How many prefer to buy clean
and cheap diesel Euro6+ cars instead gasoline's one?

Try to be honest.

After draw your conclusion and _please_ publish it.

------
ionwake
Which are the best (Norwegian import?) electric car companies to invest in?

Thank you

~~~
janvidar
[https://elbilstatistikk.no/](https://elbilstatistikk.no/)

------
mikelyons
C'mon Suomi Finland I know you can beat 'em!

------
jimmaswell
A third of a very small market doesn't mean that much.

