

What email sending services do you use? - surfmike

We have a large list of people waiting for invite codes, but we're having problems with our mass emails getting caught by spam filters. We're looking for a service that will help us see how many emails are bouncing or not, as well as sending emails with domainkeys authentication. We've looked at http://www.industrymailout.com, http://www.campaigner.com/, http://www.jangomail.com/, http://www.authsmtp.com. What do you use for sending mass emails? Any tips for getting past the spam filters to our legitimate subscribers?
======
mdasen
I hate paying someone else to deliver my email. It just seems crappy. So, in
that spirit:

Set up a server with postfix. Don't to this on EC2. Many just blacklist those
IPs. Implement DKIM. It isn't too difficult and if you just google for a how
to there are plenty. That way, the messages are signed and nice. I would avoid
SPF. A lot more people have forwarding addresses now and most forwarding
servers don't play nice with SPF and that causes mail to get rejected.

Most importantly, make it very obvious how to stop getting the emails with one
click. Users hate messages they can't easily stop. Don't hide it thinking that
you'll convince some to stay receiving. They'll send you to SPAM and that's
the end of your email server. Make it one click, make it all messages, don't
ask for passwords, don't ask for email addresses, nothing. One click opt-out.
Anything else and, well, you deserve getting dumped in the SPAM folder.

EDIT: almost forgot, make the address go to a real mailbox if someone replies.
Most of the time, the reply will be "take me off". Just click the link from
their message and be done with it. Don't tell them how, just do it. It takes
less time and makes them happier.

~~~
nickb
_Set up a server with postfix. Don't to this on EC2. Many just blacklist those
IPs. Implement DKIM. It isn't too difficult and if you just google for a how
to there are plenty. That way, the messages are signed and nice. I would avoid
SPF. A lot more people have forwarding addresses now and most forwarding
servers don't play nice with SPF and that causes mail to get rejected._

None of the things you've offered as solutions actually guarantee delivery. In
fact, I'll wager that emails sent from an email server that's been setup like
you propose will not even show up in Hotmail's Spam folder, let alone Hotmail
inbox! Having DKIM doesn't do anything for Hotmail or Y! Mail, for example.
Spammers use DKIM too. I wouldn't avoid SPF since some European ISPs require
it and Hotmail actually does care about it once you actually get past bigger
issues that stop Hotmail delivery. And even if one of your test emails does
get through Hotmail, a first Spam report (i.e. someone clicks on that dreaded
"Spam" button) by one of the recipients will blacklist your whole server and
domain, INSTANTLY! And who knows how long it will take you to get off that
dreaded spam list. SPF is a must.

In short, setting up your own mail server and thinking that your emails will
show up in people's inboxes is naïve. You wouldn't believe what it takes to
have a 95% delivery rate. Those email delivery companies have dozens of people
who talk daily to postmasters of major email companies and resolve issues.

We went through this process, maybe foolishly, and it took a lot of work and
more importantly, a lot of time. And we still have issues with some email
services. It will take you about a month to jump through all the hoops to
actually have about 80% delivery rate. If I were doing it again, I'd go with a
hosted email service instead. Unless you're sending over 10K emails a day,
hosted is the way to go. I might make a writeup on the process once I get some
free time... let me know if anyone's interested.

~~~
jsdalton
> Unless you're sending over 10K emails a day, hosted is the way to go. I
> might make a writeup on the process once I get some free time... let me know
> if anyone's interested.

We're considering rolling our own email server setup. We send about 30K emails
a day in the form of a daily newsletter, and are getting ready to build a
custom community update users, that will go to about 10K per day.

A long way of saying I'm VERY interested in your experiences with your setup.

~~~
nickb
Ping me privately in the meantime if you need urgent advice.

------
raamdev
I've found when doing mass mailings the best solution is to use a service
whose sole job is to insure your email gets delivered. I haven't used many
such services, but Constant Contact (constantcontact.com) comes to mind. They
provide things like tracking how many people viewed the email (by using HTML
in the email to load a remote image, I believe), tracking link clicks inside
the email, etc, though for your purposes it doesn't sound like this kind of
service would be helpful.

In this world of spam paranoia, I've found it to be way too much trouble to do
mass mailings yourself and expect to actually get around all the spam filters.
Services like Constant Contact are paid to do just that, so your chances are
much better.

I use AuthSMTP for all of my personal and business outgoing email and it's
great (I've been using them for almost two years now). I've never had any
downtime and they have a simple interface to view sent emails, so I can easily
confirm an email was actually sent if I'm in doubt. The one or two times I've
interfaced with their support, they seemed technically adept and were very
helpful.

For my clients who insist on writing scripts to do their own mass mailings, I
always recommend using AuthSMTP and simply writing the script to stay within
AuthSMTP's stated volume guidelines (maximum of 50 recipients per single
message, though they recommend keeping it to 10). Oh, and they do have a "Show
Errors Logged" section that shows you all the emails that didn't go through.

~~~
kngspook
I can't speak much for Constant Contact's control panels and what not.

But what I can tell you is that they're on a mailing list that a lot of
postmasters are on, and whenever someone has a problem with one of their
clients[1], they're very responsive, usually within a matter of hours
(sometimes minutes). And that has, without a doubt, kept them in good graces.

So my point here is twofold: A. Constant Contact is, at least, a healthy
player in the field, and you're likely to get good throughput with them. B.
Don't try to pull any fast ones over these companies, if they don't notice
themselves, they'll hear about it very quickly. Make sure you keep your lists
clean and you're following every single guideline they give you (and they're
usually happy to help you).

[1]. Which happens to any service at some point; they can't exactly hand-vet
every mailing that goes through their service.

------
mmmurf
Check out a project I'm working on: hellocreature.com. We have a rails plugin
you can use (or you can just use our REST api) to send emails that are signed
with DomainKeys and DKIM, and are stamped with HashCash. We also support
SenderID, SPF, etc. We also have standard pricing that is lower than those
other companies' highest volume plans.

We're obviously in beta now so the site's marketing copy has a bit of work
needed yet, but I'd be happy to get you set up today for a free trial. We've
been having superb deliverability with our clients so far and we have a bunch
of other nice features you may want to use.

Just email me at matt (at) hellocreature.com

~~~
mmmurf
I should also add that we use separate IPs for one-off emails that are not
really bulk email (such as signup confirmations, emails you send via our API).
This is hugely important for deliverability.

------
jdunck
We use AuthSMTP.com with fairly link-heavy text. It's often pretty lengthy
text, so that might help.

Make sure your SPF works.

Most of the suggestions here are for campaign software, and that might help--
just use a mail merge feature. Such software often has metrics like bounces,
opens, spam-responses built in.

------
spiretop
Campaignmonitor.com

~~~
whiskeyjack
++ on this.

~~~
bprater
Do they have an API that you can inject email into their system with?

Edit: It looks like they do have a programmatic API. Next question: can you do
single-opt email? And the cost page makes it look like it's free to send out a
single email at a time.

If all this is accurate, it seems like this would be a perfect service. Free,
API, single-opt -- so what's the catch?

~~~
jsdalton
Where do you get free from? <http://www.campaignmonitor.com/pricing/>

I do enjoy the API. I actually just spent all day working on implementing part
of it in a Wordpress plugin. It's SOAP as opposed to REST, but I guess you
can't have everything in life.

~~~
gruseom
From that page: "you only pay when you send an email campaign to more than 5
people".

------
epi0Bauqu
qmail. You need to email Gmail/Yahoo/Hotmail/whoever, answer all their
standard questions, and they will eventually stop sending your email to spam.
I've done this personally about a dozen times.

~~~
surfmike
What's the channel for contacting them about this?

~~~
Glimjaur
Google:
[http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=81126...](http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=81126&topic=12838)
Yahoo: <http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/mail/postmaster/>

I did not double check to make sure that it's exactly what we're talking
about, simply trying to help. :)

------
funkymonkeyman
Don't write about viagra.

~~~
surfmike
Hah.

------
jhancock
I was under the impression that google app's mail systems use of SPF
[http://www.google.com/support/a/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answ...](http://www.google.com/support/a/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=33786)
handled these types of problems well.

I realize this first step only works for sending below gmail's per day send.

My plan was to do the following:

1 - use google apps with SPF to ensure my general personal emails gets through

2 - use my web server's local SMTP to send my registration and other user
demanded server sent messages. My plan was to add my server's SMTP info in an
SPF compatible way (still don't know how to do this part.)

3 - use a service (mailchimp etc.) for newsletters.

Can someone expand on this thinking? Particularly step 2?

------
clintavo
I've been using a homegrown solution for years. I've learned more than I ever
wanted to about spam filters, having IPs greylisted, throttling delivery
speeds etc. I've decided it's not worth our time anymore to keep up with all
the latest requirements at hotmail,yahoo,gmail,comcast etc. So we're in the
final stages of switching to <http://cakemail.com> as our "back end." Their
api has worked flawlessly and lets us control everything. So far we're happy
with them. Another good solution (but expensive unless you get to really high
volumes) is strongmail.

------
nikgun
<http://sailthru.com> has a/b testing on emails and social network invites
(address book integration with aol,gmail,linkedin,etc). They get the invites
in the inbox because users can globally optout so you are not having people
repeat flagging you as spam. They handle all of our automated email, we've
raised revenue in two weeks of a/b testing.

------
iamyoohoo
Vertical response or streamsend are both good.

------
utx00
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DomainKeys>

------
codilechasseur
<http://industrymailout.com> is my vote. We use them quite a bit for numerous
clients and haven't had any problems. Anything not present in their back end,
they've built in. Anywhere from 1000 - 35000 mails without a hitch and an API.

------
mattmaroon
I use constant contact and like them. We only having a few k people on the
mailing list, which at that level is well worth the price. If you're talking
millions then you're at the point where it may make sense to do it yourself.

------
xg
<http://sailthru.com> (great APIs) and we use <http://campaignmonitor.com> for
our newsletters.

------
mmohan
We use mailchimp, cheaper, free trial available and reliable.
<http://www.mailchimp.com>

~~~
wird
We've had good experiences with mailchimp as well.

------
tdavis
mailchimp.com

~~~
pistoriusp
I'm also using mailchimp, I do ~500 emails per month. Not a very high volume,
so it costs 3c per email, but the data they provide on the campaigns is
worthwhile and especially helpful when I have to report back to my clients.

~~~
rrhyne
I use mailchimp since wayback and I like them. The later versions are really
robust, but i don't think they have an api. Sounds like you want less of a
SaaS?

~~~
doodyhead
Having just written an integration into it, I can assure you MailChimp has an
excellent API: <http://www.mailchimp.com/api/>

It's far superior to Constant Contact's API, which consists of two methods:
subscribe and unsubscribe (last time I checked anyway).

------
lionheart
Aweber.com

------
timcederman
ExactTarget will help you manage getting past spam filters.

~~~
timcederman
That's really weird -- that's twice now in the last couple of days I've had
posts upmodded and then downmodded without any really obvious reason why they
got downmodded. Can someone who is doing the downmodding please explain their
rationale?

------
comatose_kid
<http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1149.html>

------
davidw
Postfix.

~~~
bprater
The issue with DIY is that you can easily get black listed by a major ISP. If
enough idiots mark your "Welcome to MyService.com" as spam, you are screwed.

Once done, nobody at that ISP is going to get your mail.

That's the advantage big players like aweber have, they can pick up the phone
and work out issues like this with an ISP.

BTW, its worth subscribing to campaignmonitor to actually see which ISPs are
nuking you globally.

------
mtw
cakemail.com i also used campaignmonitor

------
viviem_wu
mass email like facebook email systems

------
hikari17
returnpath.com

------
espadagroup
icontact.com

