
How to Find Hidden Cameras in Your Airbnb - greencore
https://isc.sans.edu/diary/How+to+Find+Hidden+Cameras+in+your+AirBNB/24834
======
JacKTrocinskI
Or just go to a hotel! I have a condo in a building where most of the units
are listed on Airbnb or Booking.com, quality of life for residents like me has
been drastically reduced by noisy tourists that come for a weekend trip and
have no regard for keeping it quiet or keeping the shared spaces clean. I hope
more cities begin to ban Airbnb. Tourists belong in hotels not in buildings
where families try to live their daily lives and have to go to work. I've had
to call the police on party goers and notoriously have to knock on noisy
doors, I seriously hope Airbnb goes bankrupt and that cities ban the whole
business model.

~~~
terryf
This is one of the reasons I don't stay in airbnbs - the system breaks the
social contract.

The reason hotels are more expensive is because they have to follow a bunch of
rules that makes everyone's life a bit better by having insurance for risks
and zoning and so on. However you have to pay a bit more.

So, if you ever find yourself complaining "I wish people did something in a
not the absolute cheapest and effortless way" so that society in general would
benefit - don't stay in airbnb.

~~~
noxToken
>This is one of the reasons I don't stay in airbnbs - the system breaks the
social contract.

But it doesn't. People are breaking the social contract by not respecting the
area. If I invite friends from out of town over for the weekend, is that
breaking the social contract? If I'm going away for 2 weeks, and I have
friends house sit for the duration, is that breaking the social contract?
Tourists and visitors existing in a space (unless it's too many) isn't
inherently violating the social contract. Their selfish behavior is the issue.

I understand what you mean. I have neighbors down the road who throw a massive
family gathering once per year that I'm certain breaks noise, traffic and
safety ordinances[0] due to the sound system still going at 10PM and parked
cars littering both sides of the streets. That's not due to Airbnb or any
other hospitality broker.

If you have an issue with visitors, talk to them. It's possible that they
don't even know they're being a nuisance. I have had cops called on me for a
noise complaint. It would have been a better use of everyone's time to knock
and let us know.

[0]: As far as I know, no one reports the reunion/gathering. I like to think
that since we're all very respectful of each other's property and space,
breaking the rules for a special event once in a while is no big deal.

~~~
bluejekyll
> It would have been a better use of everyone's time to knock and let us know.

Sadly, too many people now are afraid of conflict, even small conflict, they
prefer to call the police rather than deal with others directly. They don’t
want to deal with it themselves.

That anxiety I’m sure goes up with unknown Airbnbers, and so raises the likely
good that people will probably call the police instead.

~~~
rhacker
Sadly, too many people have become toxic. My first action is usually to talk
to people, asking them to turn things down until I can't hear it. It works
increasingly less over time. Instead I get people that turn the volume up. I
am slowly moving towards calling the police first lately.

~~~
theflyinghorse
I would be very hesitant to call the police in the US given their reputation.

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intricatedetail
I had a couple of situations where airbnb was a life saver (victim of abusive
relationship). There are not many places where a male can seek a shelter as
most of them are being targeted towards women and children. In my city hotels
are extremely expensive so airbnb was a good option to have. I understand that
tourists can be nuisance but I wouldn't like it to be banned.

~~~
djsumdog
What about hostels? Sure you're in a share room, but you can often tell by
reviews if a hostel is a "party hostel" or more all ages. And if it's not,
just book for one or two nights.

I practically lived out of different hostels, and one a few peoples' couches,
for about 11 months once:

[https://khanism.org/perspective/minimalism/](https://khanism.org/perspective/minimalism/)

~~~
TeMPOraL
I'll second the hostels, and don't dismiss them just because apparently in the
US they imply bunk beds in large rooms. I've stayed in hostels quite a bit,
and every one had places rented by the _room_ , not by bed, and plenty of
single and double rooms.

Hostels, at least in (most of?) Europe, are essentially cheaper hotels,
usually without a minibar and with much less upselling. Or, in terms I know
from US cinema, they're like motels without the car culture aspect.

~~~
mbel
From my experience in Europe: hostels imply a bunk bed in shared room here
too. I just made a quick search on booking.com for a hostel in Warsaw and
nearly all of the offers were shared dormitories.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Interesting. Could be that booking.com uses the US meaning of the term?

I must have stayed in something like 30 different hostels in Poland over the
course of last decade; it was always in single bed or two-bed rooms, with the
whole room rented for me. I never used booking.com, though, but always did a
Google search for "hostele w $city", and reserved room via phone or web form.

~~~
aembleton
hostelworld.com is based out of Ireland and they specialise in allowing you to
search for shared dorm type hostels.

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dsl
If you are concerned about cameras in Airbnbs, consider picking up a camera
detector off Amazon for ~$30.

They are basically a ring of super bright LEDs with a colored lens in the
middle you put up to your eye and scan around the room. The light reflects off
the curved glass of the lens and the filter helps you see it.

The less effective but impromptu version of this is just holding a super
bright flashlight between your eyes (facing out), but you kinda need to have
to done it before to know what to look for.

~~~
lnsru
Could this be improved creating an app for smartphones? They have light source
and camera with zoom, so suspicious reflections can be identified for manual
inspection later. Probably integrated WiFi scanner also doable. Is there
market for this?

~~~
Cthulhu_
There was a video clip the other day showing just this - it was basically a
plastic sheet / filter you could hold over your phone's camera and flashlight
that made camera lenses stand out.

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risyachka
Airbnb is not evil. Tourists that don't care or follow the rules are. Without
Airbnb, they will bring the same problems just to other people in other
places.

Many hotels do charge unjustified amounts of money, so I am personally happy
there is an option to pay reasonable money for good service. Also, it's not
like hotels don't have their share of problems. Many hotels in many countries
offer you pure garbage when you arrive, mix rooms, bad food, etc. And in many
hotels, you can't sleep because of loud tourists or your hotel neighbors. With
Airbnb when you find a listing with 30+ 5star reviews, at least you are sure
it matches pictures and description.

So obviously, Airbnb has its flaws, just like any other service. But hotels
are definitely not the solution to them, at least from a tourist's point of
view, though I absolutely see how they are for some local residents.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Now for the counterargument:

Airbnb is evil, because it facilitates and profits from rule and lawbreaking,
up to and including turning whole apartment buildings into pirate hotels,
while spinning the tale that it's all about individuals occasionally renting
out their primary place of residence for a couple of days. It's evil because
while occasional random temporary sublets aren't a problem, they become a
problem when they stop being random and instead become a coordinated, frequent
phenomenon.

It's evil because its whole business model is making money by encouraging
people to break social contract and do wrong against their neighbors.

Sure, hotels, motels, hostels, and all other legit accomodations aren't
perfect. But this isn't the way to fix them.

~~~
_petronius
I agree with this, and I think there is an interesting generalisation that can
be pulled out of it: something’s which are fine (harmless, neutral, or even
good) at a small individual scale become problematic or terrible when done at
the scale that modern software and the internet can provide.

VRBO isn’t inherently bad, hijacking VRBO into a stealth hotel business and
breaking the social contract of residential neighbourhoods is.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Exactly.

And what's extra sad here is that once a company like Uber or AirBnB gains
large-scale success, there are only two things that happen. Some places accept
it and eat the social externalities. Others try to ban the practice, but
legislation is expensive, enforcement is expensive, and it also hurts the
society by making illegal what was previously just fine on a small scale.

I think societies need to learn to recognize this pattern ASAP, because the
best outcome is nipping such companies in the bud, before they grow and leave
only two bad options on the table.

EDIT: Related is this post I read once:

[https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2013/04/03/the-locust-
economy/](https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2013/04/03/the-locust-economy/)

It calls "sharing economy" a locust economy - an economy based on making money
off leading masses of people to destroy other businesses, and ultimately each
other.

~~~
xtiansimon
>> “I think societies need to learn to recognize this pattern ASAP, because
the best outcome is nipping such companies in the bud, before they grow and
leave only two bad options on the table..”

Who are you specificities referring to when you say ‘societies’? Government?
Consumers?

~~~
TeMPOraL
Both!

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danesparza
Just to be clear, AirBnB has rules about cameras:
[https://www.airbnb.com/help/article/887/what-are-airbnbs-
rul...](https://www.airbnb.com/help/article/887/what-are-airbnbs-rules-about-
security-cameras-and-other-recording-devices-in-listings)

Note that you can get a full refund if the host breaks these rules.

~~~
nsajko
> we require hosts to disclose all security cameras and other recording
> devices in their listings, and we prohibit any security cameras and other
> recording devices that are in or that observe the interior of certain
> private spaces (such as bedrooms and bathrooms), regardless of whether
> they’ve been disclosed.

~~~
learc83
Banning them only in bedrooms and bathrooms is insane. Common spaces aren't
public spaces if you rent out the whole place.

If you can't rent out your place without recording your renters, you dont need
to be renting.

~~~
danesparza
I completely agree with you.

My point in including the link to the help article is to point out that AirBnB
is on the side of disclosure -- so you as a consumer can make that choice for
yourself.

Somehow, I don't think many hotels would be that transparent.

~~~
learc83
You think hotels put cameras in your room?

AirBnB is on the side of disclosure for this specific problem, which isn't a
problem in hotels unless someone is breaking the law.

------
djsumdog
Hmm .. I had a friend recently who rented out a room on Airbnb and had guests
that trashed it. Airbnb did pay damaged on his claim.

He rented again and the girl asked if she could rent for a few more months. So
they signed a standard city lease outside Airbnb and she hasn't left or paid.
He's had to file eviction. That obviously isn't AirBNB's fault, but it's now 2
for 2 bad experiences that started with AirBNB.

I wonder how many people install cameras in just the entrances/open areas more
as a general liability thing. It probably goes against Airbnb policies, might
be unethical or illegal in some jurisdictions, but considering the horror
stories on both sides, I can understand why it happens.

~~~
Someone1234
> I wonder how many people install cameras in just the entrances/open areas
> more as a general liability thing.

Can you clarify that? How does adding a camera near the entrance avoid
liability? The examples given it wouldn't have helped, particularly if
positioned where suggested.

Plus in that scenario they should be overt cameras not covert. If for no other
reason that there's no real concept of the entrance area being any less
private than anywhere else in the abode.

~~~
jobigoud
One scenario is if you specify your listing is for 2 persons and you rent to
two guests, but then there is a party of 14 and you get back the place
trashed. You can prove they lied.

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sschueller
I guess requiring a license to run a hotel or a cab company do have a reason
after all. /s

~~~
tinus_hn
The license in no way guarantees this can’t happen in a hotel.

~~~
sschueller
No but a license requires a regulatory body and that body should be tasks to
inspect such things. Of course if the system is corrupt and broken it won't
make a difference.

Why have companies require FDA approval/inspections if it doesn't guarantee
that there isn't some poison in your food?

~~~
Someone1234
What regulatory body currently inspects hotel rooms for hidden cameras or
listening devices?

~~~
lykr0n
If there is a regulation that says you can't do something, it's not there to
make sure it doesn't happen, it's there so when when it does happen you have
legal recourse to sue the fuck out of them.

If a hotel is required to maintain a standard of privacy, then you better
believe the brand tries to maintain some compliance to that standard. If
Marriott found out that one of it's hotels was putting recording devices in
their rooms, you better believe the corporate office would come down on that
hotel. If not for legal reasons, public image and brand reputation.

~~~
Someone1234
It is illegal already. It doesn't require regulation, it is criminal. For
example:

[https://www.azleg.gov/ars/13/03019.htm](https://www.azleg.gov/ars/13/03019.htm)

------
celeritascelery
What is your recourse if you do happen to find a hidden camera? I mean, is it
illegal for someone to hide a camera in their own house and not tell you?

~~~
dfxm12
Regardless of local law, it's against AirBNB's TOS to have an undisclosed
camera in the room. You should contact them.
[https://www.airbnb.com/help/article/887/what-are-airbnbs-
rul...](https://www.airbnb.com/help/article/887/what-are-airbnbs-rules-about-
security-cameras-and-other-recording-devices-in-listings)

I ran into a situation where there was an undisclosed camera inside a room I
rented (with the bathroom in its field of view, no less!). It put me in a
tough spot because in an unfamiliar city, I don't want to cancel my room and
have to look for another, but I also don't want to be spied on either. I
covered the camera and disclosed it to AirBNB after the fact. I'm not sure
what happened to the hosts, if anything.

~~~
jobigoud
For this kind of offense if you are uncomfortable staying any longer, Airbnb
can try to relocate you in a similar priced listing for the rest of your stay.

In any case you should also say so in the review so other guests are warned.
The host can't see your review until after they review you themselves.

------
jobigoud
Here is an evil idea: hotels could start providing smart speakers integrated
in the rooms. Call it Smart Room™. This way you can ask the room where the
nearest supermarket is or whatever, that would be convenient for an out-of-
town trip wouldn't it? Obviously the hotel would record all the requests and
then sell the data to local shops / marketers, or even customize the answers
for a fee.

There is currently a debate on some Airbnb forums about smart speakers,
whether they are a nice-touch or just creepy.

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mattoxic
AirBnB has destroyed the housing market in Tasmania. We now have tent cities
(ok, hyperbole, but tent villages) of people who have been turfed out of long
term rental to make way for short stay tourist market.

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wumms
Google cache: (couldn't find it on archive.org):
[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttps...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Fisc.sans.edu%2Fdiary%2FHow%2Bto%2BFind%2BHidden%2BCameras%2Bin%2Byour%2BAirBNB%2F24834)

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OrgNet
> Here are some of the innocent devices you may find: smart TVs

lol... many smart TVs are not innocent devices

If it was me I would start by disabling the local modem and router. That
doesn't take care of cameras that have on-board SD cards, but it is a good
start.

------
known
Fascinating & Frightening Shodan Search Queries [https://jarv.is/notes/shodan-
search-queries/](https://jarv.is/notes/shodan-search-queries/)

~~~
jakejarvis
Thanks for posting my weird collection!

A personal spy cam in a rental home is bad enough, but the fact that there are
so many open to the world (and therefore indexed on Shodan) makes it
infinitely worse.

------
OrgNet
The site was down for me, here is a mirror:
[http://archive.is/KI59h](http://archive.is/KI59h)

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jerzyt
I find it ironic that someone so concerned about hidden cameras is advocating
hack attacks on the host's network. I run an Airbnb, no cameras, not even on
the door. The only sensor I have is on the Nest thermostat to automatically
turn off heating when no one is present. I expect the courtesy of my network
not being hacked into by some wannabe hacker.

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acollins1331
Someone on an Airbnb put me up in their place for next to nothing when I was
fleeing a hurricane. Hotels were booked and upcharging people huge amounts.
There are pros and cons to the system, anyone advocating banning it, however,
is only seeing their own side.

~~~
ilikehurdles
I'm not at all for banning it. But stories like these, from a consumer
standpoint, make me want to increasingly avoid Airbnb. Hosts need to be at
minimum banned from the platform for having cameras in housing they're
offering to guests. And "disclosing" them is not enough.

~~~
acollins1331
I'm anti surveillance, but if it's disclosed in the ad that there are cameras
and where they were then it seems like something a person can decide whether
or not that bothers them. No cameras seems a little excessive.

~~~
dannyw
Cameras outside of housing like exteriors is fine.

Cameras INSIDE a home is just not OK. I cannot imagine a single legitimate
purpose where that is OK, can you?

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briantailor
I'm always nervous when I went through Airbnb because you are never really
100% certain until you arrive. While it is significantly cheaper than a hotel
or even hostel sometimes it is just better to pay a bit extra and be secure
with your choice.

~~~
jobigoud
What makes you "really 100% certain" about hotels?

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mensetmanusman
AirBnB has also helped many low income minorities make additional income,
because usually these are the people building and maintaining local culture.

Most AirBnB guests are not doing what you describe. Call the police, and let
AirBnB ban the loud ones.

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jmalkin
Whoops hugged the site to death

------
pcdoodle
How to be extra paranoid brought to you by Hotel Industry Fear Porn (tm).

~~~
nerdponx
If an article comes out this year about hidden cameras in hotel rooms,
scanning for brands/logos and/or running facial recognition for law
enforcement, I won't be shocked.

~~~
Fins
Yeah, and trhey also run child prostitution rings out of their evil hotel
pizza parlors.

Lengths to which the SV crowd would go to pretend that it is not absolutely,
thoroughly, and irredeemably morally bankrupt are truly scary...

