
Six more radio signals from deep space deepen mystery - tnorton0310
http://www.sciencealert.com/6-more-mysterious-radio-signals-have-been-detected-coming-from-outside-our-galaxy
======
avz
We do know that under the laws of physics evolution of intelligent creatures
is possible. We also know that against someone capable of coming here, we're
defenseless, conveniently pinned to this beautiful, but small rock and with no
way to escape. We also know that space is huge beyond imagination and that the
law of large numbers means that after billions of years of unfamiliar
evolution across the billions of unfamiliar worlds throughout Milky Way alone
almost anything may conceivably come out of it.

At times, I find it weirdly surprising that I don't actually experience fear
every time I look up at the sky. Then again the lack of fear is easy to
understand: a deadly encounter with an alien race happens only once, so
evolution had no chance to tune our responses appropriately.

This reminds me of dodo of Mauritius [1]. It is said that the birds were not
fearful of humans (nor presumably of other abstract threats that could
conceivably come from across the seas).

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodo)

~~~
ageofwant
There is no reasonable reason why we should fear aliens. There is absolutely
nothing present on earth that is not hyper abundant elsewhere and more
conveniently harvested from a shallower gravity well. There is just nothing
here that is special, especially special enough to travel many light years to
get to. It is also hard to image why a species that have that capability would
not be able to synthesize what they want from base materials.

~~~
rebuilder
There's a line of thought that annihilation of one species is the only
possible outcome from two spacefaring species meeting. This stems from the
assumption that both are growth-seeking, which makes sense since they wouldn't
be likely to meet without being expansionist.

Seeking growth, they will need more and more resources. Direct competition
inevitably ensues, leading to conflict and destruction either via warfare or
economic means.

That's all pretty theoretical, but just one example of why aliens might not be
benign. I don't think it's reasonable to say we have nothing to fear.

~~~
ageofwant
Aliens arriving today must be technologically superior to humans by several
orders of magnitude. If they are not they would exploit their local resources
first before finding need to expand. So the changes of technologically
equivalent aliens arriving today is negligible.

The amount of material present in Jupiter is rather large. If a species
arrives that is routinely capable of converting gas giants into habitats and
is currently in pressing need for housing then yes, we may be bulldozed into
extinction - there might be even some poetic justice in that. But why would
the Developers choose Jupiter, why not some other system with many more Gas
giants or currently coalescing clouds ?

Resource based arguments don't hold much water for me, not at this scale
anyway.

~~~
rebuilder
An aggressively expansionist species will always be "in need of housing". They
will behave like locusts. It's not a given that most species would be like
that, but if they come to us, the odds are pretty good they are aggressively
expansionist. If they weren't, why would they bother to go to the trouble of
space travel in the first place?

~~~
keenerd
Any civilization that can travel between the stars will be able to build space
habs more cheaply. There's no good reason to sit in the bottom of a gravity
well when you can build something better yourself.

Unless maybe you are losing a war, being chased relentlessly across the stars
and need to make a bomb shelter under a thousand miles of rock. You could
offer the natives all sorts of technology, or all the precious metals you find
in exchange for a few cubic kilometers deep under ground. Whatever deals you
make with them don't matter anyway. They'll all be glassed in a few years when
your pursuers figure out where you're hiding and begin bombardment.

~~~
SCHiM
Or maybe they need warriors, since their race has already collectively
modified itself to delete wasteful things like aggressiveness and anger. Queue
the intelligent aggressive naked apes. And throw them at your problems!

Or imagine making peace with the aliens, what will they think of our nearly
endless collections of movies, video games and stories wherein we're
slaughtering, mutilating and murdering or visitors from the sky? I wonder how
_that_ is going to look once they understand what they're seeing.

~~~
naasking
> Or maybe they need warriors, since their race has already collectively
> modified itself to delete wasteful things like aggressiveness and anger.

Highly doubtful. Any trait that's collectively exhibited was adaptive and such
a spefies would value it to some extent, so they wouldn't breed it out
entirely. If some new sub-species found a better way and outcompeted those
with this trait, then they are already better adapted by definition, and so
wouldn't need this trait.

------
dsqrt
This article makes a number of incorrect statements. First of all, all
observed FRBs so far are at cosmological distances, well outside the Milky
Way. Second, even before the discovery of a repeating source, neutron star
collisions have already been ruled out as being a primary source of FRBs
because of their rate. Only a very small fraction of neutron stars collide
with another neutron star or black hole in the lifetime of the Universe (of
the order of 1 every tens of thousands). On the other hand, the FRB rate
inferred from the observations is around several percent of the core-collapse
supernova rate, ie, the rate at which neutron stars are formed.

 __EDIT __

Also the energy estimate given in the article are way off. The energy released
by FRBs are of the order of what the Sun emits in 1 year not 1 day (assuming
that FRB emit energy isotropically and that the distances estimated from the
dispersion measurement of FRBs are correct).

~~~
Animats
_The energy released by FRBs are of the order of what the Sun emits in 1 year
not 1 day (assuming that FRB emit energy isotropically and that the distances
estimated from the dispersion measurement of FRBs are correct)._

Each burst lasts only a few milliseconds. What does the energy consumption
look like assuming the FRBs emit RF directionally and aim at plausible targets
in their sky? That's what an attempt to communicate would probably do.

~~~
dsqrt
The energy requirements are proportional to the beaming angle, so if we assume
FRBs to be beamed, then the energy required decreases significantly. For
example assuming a beam of 10 deg^2, this would give a reduction of a factor
648.

~~~
Animats
Assume the sender has an antenna at least as good as Arecibo. That antenna has
a beam width of 4 minutes of arc.[1] That's 0.066 degrees, or about one ten
millionth of the sky. So you get to divide the power requirements by 10^7.

[1]
[http://egg.astro.cornell.edu/alfalfa/ugrad/backgrnd/intro2ar...](http://egg.astro.cornell.edu/alfalfa/ugrad/backgrnd/intro2arecibo.pdf)

------
anigbrowl
Better story: [http://www.sciencealert.com/6-more-mysterious-radio-
signals-...](http://www.sciencealert.com/6-more-mysterious-radio-signals-have-
been-detected-coming-from-outside-our-galaxy)

Preprint: [https://arxiv.org/abs/1603.08880](https://arxiv.org/abs/1603.08880)

~~~
tlb
Changed from [http://www.ibtimes.co.in/six-more-radio-signals-deep-
space-d...](http://www.ibtimes.co.in/six-more-radio-signals-deep-space-deepen-
mystery-are-we-being-hailed-by-intelligent-beings-709741), thanks.

------
Pica_soO
If they are organized like human civilization, they will have a scientific and
artist caste, discussing how human civilization should be protected and how
tragic its demise is, while a capital caste mines human civilisation for
exotic materials and protein. After 99 % of humanity is gone, the survivors
are taken to a galactic zoo and are allowed to speak on "Never again" dinner
galas.

------
jayajay
> they tend to generate so much energy that it could parallel the amount of
> energy generated by the Sun for a whole day

This is not a good enough reason to think it could be life. So many objects in
our universe are orders of magnitude more powerful than our unremarkable sun.

> Repeating Nature an enigma

This is not a good enough reason to think it could be life. Repeating is
fundamental to every single branch of physics. So many phenomena emit photons
periodically. Charged particles in circular motion, pulsars, quasars, binary
stars, solar systems at certain viewing angles, etc.

~~~
koheripbal
The amount of energy used actually makes it _less_ likely to be intelligence.

~~~
jayajay
Initially I thought that as well: "why would intelligent life spew tons of
energy into random solid angles?". But there may be a reason to do this. I
wouldn't be sure if they would go through the effort to not pollute -- just
look at humans. We pollute space with our signals. Civilizations that command
astronomical amounts of energy as if they were pennies might just do the same
thing.

------
ethbro
If you scale the way our technology works up to sufficient levels to
accomplish the original event, I could see the following still holding:

It is always easier to take advantage of matter/energy existing in the
universe than to create it yourself.

Supposing a civilization could communicate across galactic scales using this
method, which seems easier? Crushing neutron stars / dropping things in black
holes or constructing an appatus to emit an equivalent amount of power?

Just because even we can technologically do something doesn't mean we don't
take easier shortcuts. Working smarter, not harder scales.

If it's based on naturally occurring raw material, it's not unreasonable that
the source would jump around anyway.

------
13of40
Is the amount of energy per burst based on the assumption that it's radiating
in a sphere versus being directional?

~~~
ianai
If we're talking K2 I think it doesn't matter. Either power requirement
outstrips anything otherwise naturally occurring.

~~~
tlb
The ratio between K1 energy and K2 energy is the ratio between a sun's
radiation falling on one planet and the sun's radiation over the entire
sphere.

So a directional transmission with the beam angle of a planet from the sun at
K1 power should look similar to an isotropic transmission with K2 power.

For earth, that angle is 0.0025 degrees, entirely possible with parabolic
antennas.

~~~
webXL
Shouldn't we try to get outside that arc as soon as possible and set up the
means to corroborate this? We might need several satellites it seems like.

~~~
ianai
It might take something orbiting Pluto to figure out though. I wouldn't know,
but with the variables involved that seems possible.

------
vivekd
Lets not jump to conclusions, maybe this is being caused by life but there are
also lots of other things besides life that can cause radio bursts in regular
intervals, like a neutron star.

------
open-source-ux
A signal from deep space, the meaning of which is unclear. Is it a sign of
alien life? Is it friendly or hostile?

And thus we have the perfect premise from which so many science fiction
stories have sprung. One of the earliest from TV is a BBC sci-fi drama called
_A for Andromeda_ broadcast in the early 1960s. The Wikipedia plot summary:

 _" A group of scientists...detect a radio signal from another galaxy that
contains instructions for the design of an advanced computer. When the
computer is built, it gives the scientists instructions for the creation of a
living organism named Andromeda, but one of the scientists, John Fleming,
fears that Andromeda's purpose is to subjugate humanity."_

At the risk of derailing this thread, can any one recommend any other sci-fi
novels (or comics) in the same vein?

~~~
Jedd
Contact.

Liu, Cixin - Three Body Problem.

~~~
AlexCoventry
> Liu, Cixin - Three Body Problem.

The second book in the series is the best.

------
perlgeek
I find this quite exciting, not because I hope for a signal from an
intelligent civilization, but because it might point to some new phenomenon.

When pulsars were discovered, they dubbed them LGM-1, LGM-2 etc for "little
green men", (see
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSR_B1919%2B21](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSR_B1919%2B21)
). The radio signals turned out to have a perfectly "normal" source, with
exciting new properties.

There's always the off chance this time, it's actually caused by "LGM", but
for now we should think of these signals as an observation that needs an
explanation, not as caused by an alien civilization.

------
jimueller
Is this site for real? Nothing but clickbait titles.

------
moon_of_moon
Serious question: how many years old are the signals estimated to be?

------
gobblez
It is terse and somewhat dramatic illustration of plato's allegory of the cave
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_Cave](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_Cave))

~~~
taneq
How is it remotely related, other than that both scenarios relate to having a
partial understanding due to a limited viewpoint?

~~~
ethbro
Parent was attempting to attempting to correlate a classical epistemological
exercise with a much more modern epistemological quip about the continuity of
modern experience, informed by (among others) neo-Hegelianism, philosophical
realism, and proto-pragmatism (similar to James and Spinoza).

In other words, yes, they are the same... in the way a pebble is a mountain.

------
xgbi
Am I the only one immediately thinking "war"?

These bursts might be some start detonations in a war between two alien
species, which would be really frightening..!

~~~
rwmj
Considering they are coming from "outside our galaxy" and our galaxy is
100,000 light years across, that means two things: (1) This "war" (if it
happened) happened long ago, and (2) The victor is very far away.

In any case it's far more likely this is some natural phenomenon.

~~~
thatcherclay
A space war from a long time ago and a galaxy far away? Where have I heard
that before... maybe this is just a Disney marketing ploy...

------
mkagenius
This might just be a neutron star as said in the last line. But the moment we
realise that we are not special, we start to believe the possibility of
another life form elsewhere.

~~~
Endy
The possibility of another life form does not make us any less special. Each
of us exists as a single individual; the same goes for each of them. I welcome
and cherish any life forms that may yet exist.

~~~
Tharkun
> the same goes for each of them

That's a bold claim. What do you base this on? What makes you think there's
more than one? And if there is, why wouldn't they have, say, a hive mind?

~~~
jayajay
Humans are already in the process of creating a hive mind (very early stages).
Consider the limiting case when every brain has access to the same
information. Suppose you get born into such a civilization. Their doctors
inject a quantum chip which integrates with your entire nervous system and
then open sources all of your data into the common information highway. Your
thoughts are known by all as you know them. Data is released, not to be
"owned". After all, you're a piece of matter, and your brain represents an
unknown to other people who deserve to know the state of the universe just as
much as you. Morally, we humans aren't there yet, however, hive minds aren't
unreasonable in more advanced and connected societies.

Perhaps someone from 2000 years ago, looking at our society today, might have
thought that we had a hive mind (at a first glance). After all, you seem to
know your friends' birthdays as they know them. You seem to know their
messages to you as they know them.

But our society is still stuck in the "ownership" phase. We have concepts of
"corporations" and notions like "privacy" and "secrets", which are in direct
contradiction to a pure hive state. Even if we have the technology to do it,
we will remain bounded and unable to converge into a hive state. The notion
that other societies may be capable of utilizing matter to such an extent
doesn't surprise me.

~~~
throwanem
Neat! You've just invented the Borg.

~~~
blincoln
Or Alastair Reynolds' Conjoiners, for a less dystopian vision of a collective
mind.

