
Apple removes Scratch from iPad/iPhone/iTouch - barrkel
http://computinged.wordpress.com/2010/04/15/apple-removes-scratch-from-ipadiphoneitouch/
======
cesare
IMHO, this should cause more outrage than all the developer related policies.

Apple has always been a world apart, with a strong philosophy and its own
priorities. But the culture around its products was all about fostering
creativity.

I used to say to friends: get a Mac if you want an hassle-free computer to
make things (music, graphics design and even programming. Does anyone remember
HyperCard, which at one point was bundled with every mac?).

The argument that the iPad/iPhone/iPodTouch is not a computer is really
myopic. It's the culture that has changed.

~~~
raganwald
Build for free software platforms like Linux or the Web and these issues go
away. Being outraged at Apple policies when the web is free is like being
outraged at your employer when you are free to start your own business.

~~~
angumagu
"Free" is a term that always benefits from definition. How free am I to start
my own business? Well, that depends on relative power, and how precarious my
financial situation is, my debt load, my family responsibilities, and other
things. It's not just a simple question of "is it physically possible?"

I'm not sure how directly applicable that critique is to the analogy, except
to say that I am well within my rights to be outraged at my own employer for
many reasons, whether or not I have the opportunity to start my own business.
"Love it or leave it" is generally a cheap argument for dismissing folks who
are pushing for progressive change in a system.

~~~
raganwald
> Build for free software platforms like Linux or the Web and these issues go
> away.

Is this statement true or false?

> Being outraged at Apple policies when the web is free is like being outraged
> at your employer when you are free to start your own business.

Does this statement say you are not entitled to be outraged at Apple or at
your employer? Or does it merely say that being outraged at Apple when you
have alternative target platforms is _like_ being outraged at your employer
when you can start your own business?

Making money from the web _appears_ to be more difficult that making money
from iPhone software. Starting your own business appears to be more difficult
than working for yourself.

Don't these statements support the simile?

I support your choice to push Apple for "progressive change." But just as you
may choose to push them to change, I choose to push developers to change. I
hope you accept the direct comparison I am drawing.

~~~
angumagu
Excellent rejoinders. They do support the simile.

I think I did jump to reading it as a "love it or leave it" argument, though
recognizing you are more on the "come and join us on the outside". But maybe
you can see it was easy to ready it as "it's a waste to get riled up about
this".

Anyway, I'm quite sympathetic to the build-alternative-institutions as opposed
to work-within-the-system approach. I rewrote this response a dozen times and
then realized I hadn't figured out what really rankles me about this whole
conversation (the larger one).

I think it's that Apple makes really good stuff, when so often it's the people
making marginal or crappy stuff that are making regressive moves like these.
So I get torn, because there are real efforts being made on their part to make
technology human, to meet people where they are, efforts that have gone
further than a lot of others. And I can't see any basic link between the
closed approach and that success.

------
cpr
Now THIS really got my attention. I was holding my nose lightly through all
the flap so far, and I'm quite sympathetic to Apple's desire to keep Flash off
the platform, but disallowing educational software just because it's running a
Smalltalk interpreter?

A polite but forceful email to Jobs is on the way...

~~~
nearestneighbor
I'd hate Apple more if they published a policy, and then cherry-picked when to
enforce it for their best PR benefit.

~~~
jamesbritt
Didn't they do essentially that by allowing apps for magazines from larger
publishers (Sports Illustrated, Playboy, for example) that contained certain
content while nixing other apps on the grounds they had exactly that sort of
content?

[http://www.cooltechzone.com/2010/02/23/apple-loves-
playboy-s...](http://www.cooltechzone.com/2010/02/23/apple-loves-playboy-
sports-illustrated-hates-other-sexual-apps/)

------
aphistic
From the article: "Why? Discussion on the Scratch forums suggests that it’s
because Apple wants to focus on consuming media using these devices, not
producing media. Want to be truly computing literate, where you write as well
as read? There’s no app for that."

No, it's because (as far as I can tell) the Scratch iPhone app was acting as a
Scratch interpreter which is explicitly not allowed on the App Store to begin
with.

The authors of the iPhone app (<http://www.mobilewikiserver.com/Scratch.html>)
made a nice post in the developer forums
(<https://devforums.apple.com/thread/46425>) pleading their case for any you
with access to the forum and an interest in digging deeper.

~~~
aristoxenus
That post really puts the "C/C++/Obj-C" thing into much starker relief than
the "wish I could use lisp" discussion. Geeks can get around 3.3.1 if they're
clever enough; replacing a democratizing technology like Scratch, on the other
hand, may be impossible.

That said, if their app really was an interpreter, I'm surprised it made it
into the store in the first place. And if anything, the typical Scratch output
of a crayon-drawn animation designed by a 13-year-old only bolsters Jobs'
point about cross-compilers bringing down the average app quality. But I'm
very impressed that they had Scratch working on the platform and I hope Apple
can find a way to incorporate that educational mission into their world-
domination strategy...

~~~
stcredzero
They built it on top of Squeak. That thing is one of the most straightforward
VMs to port. The runtimes execute bit-identical. Years ago they were on 40
different platforms, and I've lost track. It's an incredibly elegant
architecture.

~~~
aristoxenus
That's cool. Should have said "happy" instead of "impressed" -- knowing
nothing about the technical side, I was imagining the impact of letting kids
program ipods/iphones. They must have loved that.

------
endergen
This is not exactly what Alan Kay hoped for when he talked about the iPhone
foreshadowing the iPad:

"When the Mac first came out, Newsweek asked me what I [thought] of it. I
said: Well, it’s the first personal computer worth criticizing. So at the end
of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth
criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and
you’ll rule the world."

Source: [http://gigaom.com/2010/01/26/alan-kay-with-the-tablet-
apple-...](http://gigaom.com/2010/01/26/alan-kay-with-the-tablet-apple-will-
rule-the-world/)

The iPad is no Dynabook: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynabook>.

Perhaps a better name would have been:

-UndynamicBook

-iStade (See: <http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/stade> )

~~~
vtail
Could you please elaborate on what is exactly 'disrespectful to history'?
Dynabook concept was out there since 1968, not patented as far as I know -
anyone could have 'borrowed' it and reaped the benefits.

The fact that Apple has provided a particular implementation of the concept,
even with all the software restrictions etc., is a step in right direction.
Competition will certainly follow.

~~~
endergen
The last paragraph came across much stronger than I intended. I've removed it
for now until I articulate what I intended better(or never).

~~~
endergen
I agree in general with what I take to be your stance, that people who
actually get it out there into the mainstream and do it well should be
rewarded. And that open markets will always create competition so therefore
some strict control is ok if it gets us there.

To clarify, I wouldn't expect an academic to patent his work. He wants his
works to be freely available to everyone. It's Steve Job's/Apple's right
ethically and legally to leverage that. I meant it more lightly that it felt
disrespectful that years later Jobs isn't paying homage to the source of
inspirations.

I love Apple, they are killing it out there. I don't take nearly as much issue
as everyone else does with most of their controlling terms. I come from the
game's industry where Apple seems like the most gracious host compared to
Nintendo/Sony/Microsoft and their approval process.

But as a Tools/Interface developer it's so frustrating to not be allowed to
commercialize say an IDE that utilizes multi-touch to make software
editing/navigation more efficient or enjoyable.

~~~
jstevens85
>But as a Tools/Interface developer it's so frustrating to not be allowed to
commercialize say an IDE that utilizes multi-touch to make software
editing/navigation more efficient or enjoyable.

There's no reason why you can't implement an IDE on the iPhone/iPad. The only
restriction is that you can't compile arbitrary code. I don't want to say too
much here because I'm working on a similar idea, but there's really no reason
why the current iPad can't be used for development work.

~~~
endergen
You are right, I hadn't thought of it all the way down. You could still have a
code editor/navigator client that remotely accesses code, or locally stores
it. But the code is run else where.

This would work fine for say editing a web app's code and then hitting refresh
on each save. Until multi-tasking is released in iPhone OS 4.0 this will
really require another device with a browser to view the updated code in a
browser.

But again, this isn't what I'd call an IDE, it's more of a code editor. No
debugging, profiling etc, unless you are connected to a runtime else where.
But again this is far less desirable than being able to run/test code without
a good networking connection or any connection at all.

Many other interactive environments other than squeak would be possible
without these constraints, such as the Code Bubble IDE project:
<http://www.cs.brown.edu/people/acb/codebubbles_site.htm>

~~~
endergen
Wow, I just realized: The only code you can edit and test locally without a
connection will be web code. (Due to being able to run Javascript and use the
built-in webkit browser)

------
fierarul
Next up "Etch A Sketch"-like iApps will be banned since the viewers will
interpret de data from the server and display other users' sketches.

God forbid you use JSON to communicate with the server in your app and parse
it yourself, that's too close to Javascript-parsing and you can only use the
approved Javascript interpreter for that.

It's starting to look a bit like a joke.

Yeah, of course, typing this on my MacBook Pro... It's a weird love-hate thing
with Apple these days.

~~~
abstractbill
It just occurred to me you officially cannot make an iPhone app that displays
PDF documents - because rendering a PDF involves interpreting a program
written in the PostScript programming language
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PostScript#The_language>).

~~~
acon
No. PDFs only uses the PostScript imaging model, not the PostScript
programming language.

~~~
abstractbill
Ah, interesting - I always though PDF was just a superset of PostScript, but
it looks like you are correct: <http://www.adobe.com/print/features/psvspdf/>

------
locopati
So again the question arises - why would you develop for a platform where the
rules can change arbitrarily in a way that invalidates your work and possibly
cuts into your income stream?

~~~
viraptor
Because you get money while it lasts. If you're fully aware of problem and its
consequences - why not just stop worrying and love the bo^W appstore. I'm not
sure why would any hobby developer do that though...

------
javanix
_Want to be truly computing literate, where you write as well as read? There’s
no app for that._

On some level, the iPad isn't really a Turing Machine.

------
malkia
It's out only from the store. There are other ways to install it! Legal ways.

~~~
malkia
Why am I getting downvoted?

If you want Scratch for your students, you can use ad-hoc install for them?
Buy a $99 dollar account, sponsored by the school, and install it for them?
What is the problem?

I understand, and I wish Apple did not put such restrictions, but they've put
them. Yet, still there is a way.

It's not like with Sony and the latest Ps3 firmware, where even if you want to
pay (And I've already paid $69 for YellowDog support) I can no longer get it,
or I can't use the Sony Service...

~~~
cschep
Is the code freely available to use to install it? If it's not, then this
won't work.

~~~
malkia
<http://info.scratch.mit.edu/Source_Code>

~~~
cschep
Cool, thanks. I am currently in the developer program so I'm going to install
this on my phone and play with it!

edit: this isn't the iPhone source...

~~~
andresmh
The Scratch iPhone viewer was developed by a 3rd party not associated with
MIT.

------
adamc
Kept waiting to hear this was a joke, but apparently not. Depressing.

------
binspace
> Of course, they can take all the hate from developers because the mindless
> Apple legions will still love them.

So true.

------
shaunxcode
My first problem with scratch was that it was client based and the "player" is
java based. It absolutely needs to be web (not flash or java) based. I
actually had a good portion of a jquery/drag and drop code editor written a
few years ago when I was stuck at a 9-5 programming gig. I am going to dig it
back up as the time seems right to move forward with it.

~~~
misuba
Please do!

