

Most people probably shouldn't go to school - coryl
http://coryliu.com/post/109988042607/a-dirty-secret-most-people-probably-shouldnt-go

======
vinceguidry
It is absolutely worth $X0,000.

You can't really grasp the value of college as a smart and capable young
person until you hit your thirties. That's when the idealism of youth starts
to fade and hard truths start staring you in the face.

One of those hard truths is that most people are not smart and capable. They
rely on others around them. If you took a smart and capable person and
transplanted them into a strange environment, they'd thrive after a short time
finding traction. Take most everyone else out of their carefully-cultivated
social milieu, and they'd fall flat on their face.

So smart and capable people will pooh-pooh the value of college because they
don't understand what it's doing for them. They'll think of throwing
themselves against the free market as the ultimate challenge, the great
meritocratic equalizer. And for these people, it is.

For those that are not smart and capable, it is not. The free market is a
horrific meat-grinder of a system that chewed up everyone you loved as a child
and spit them out beaten and broken. Most people need social stability,
structure, a safe place. That's what our social institutions provide.

The value a college degree provides, that piece of paper that signals to your
future employer that you are worth hiring, is indispensable. If you are not
smart and capable, you will not be able to jury-rig alternative signaling.
You're at the bottom of the free hiring market.

I would love to live in a world where you didn't need to mortgage your future
to pay for the present. But the world is not like that. As a young person
without family money to fall back on, you're going to have to make a number of
investments just to get to the point where you are comfortable. You need a
home, you need a vehicle. You need a spouse. You also need a degree. You're
starting at the bottom of a hill, and the college degree is right there at the
bottom.

~~~
vanderZwan
> _I would love to live in a world where you didn 't need to mortgage your
> future to pay for the present. But the world is not like that._

Speak for yourself - the US is not the world.

Signed,

someone from a Western European country without crippling student debt and a
degree.

~~~
vinceguidry
> Speak for yourself

I was.

~~~
vanderZwan
Well ok, if you say so - the choice of words in "the world is not like that"
suggested otherwise. And I guess I am being pedantic, as the whole discussion
is obviously aimed at people from the US, and I fully agree with your overall
point.

~~~
fubarred
I'm an American with a passport who has lived and grown businesses in Europe.
(I attended private and public schools only in the US and half-heartedly
finished a top 50 uni because it wasn't a top priority.)

GWB's NCBLA further inculcated standardized testing as an official religion in
American education system. It's a complete and utter failure; another in a
long line of ill-informed, "top-down solutions" that cause more harm than
good.

[http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-
sheet/post/a-deca...](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-
sheet/post/a-decade-of-no-child-left-behind-lessons-from-a-policy-
failure/2012/01/05/gIQAeb19gP_blog.html)

------
michaelbuddy
This is idiotic to think this way. So we distill your experience of college
into what MOST people should do? I think not. Why? Because it becomes a head
trash excuse for the lazy.

A degree is something you get for finishing. A lot of people have very little
to claim they have actually completed that has meaning to an employer. But a
degree is one of them that is a gold standard. A degree also signifies you've
given a certain subject a lot of thought. So do certifications, previous work
experience community service, awards and more.

Surprise, if you are somebody who can work smart and knows how to complete
things, you are more employable than somebody who doesn't. And if you also
stack on that a lot of other good qualities, skills and finished work you're
an even better candidate. And if you're personable and work well with others,
even better.

A more appropriate sentiment would be you didn't get much out of your degree
because you changed careers. (Many people do that, no news there) But others
respect the work they have done in the past and how to synthesize what they've
learned from specialized and general studies to apply elsewhere.

Everybody knows college is expensive. It's not a mystery. The costs are laid
out there. But it's also quite easy to develop alternative paths to completing
a degree in a specialized field and not get into enormous debt. One is to do
fantastic and apply to a ton of scholarships. Another is to do community
college work, get the degree there (something finished) and also work and save
money. But I can tell you there is a point where you can do part time college,
part time work and find it really draining. it's good to complete things in a
lump sum.

~~~
Pyret
_A degree also signifies you 've given a certain subject a lot of thought._

If by that you mean a Bachelor's Degree, than I don't agree with you. First
four years of college is just a glorified day care for young adults.

~~~
zzalpha
The first four years of college is what you make of them. You ultimately get
out what you put in.

And ignoring that, you also cannot make blanket statements like this...
there's an incredible amount of variability in four year programs. I can tell
you my BSc CS degree was well earned...

------
zzalpha
Classic survivorship bias. "I became a successful, self-taught iOS developer,
therefore all school is for suckers!"

It's unfortunate that this kind of thinking is so pervasive. You see it in a
lot of contexts... I've seen this in folks who manage to raise themselves out
of poverty and become successful, only to turn around and oppose social
programs because, well, they didn't need them!

The author can't be faulted... this type of reasoning, a combination of
survivorship bias, hindsight bias, and confirmation bias, is extremely human.
We're wired for it. The hard part is realizing when you're doing it so you can
try and catch yourself. The clearest remedy is the simplest: use data, not
anecdotes.

In this case, the data supports the view that post-secondary education leads
to long-term advantages. Of course, that needs to be balanced against the
increasing debt load students are burdened with. But the reality is, generally
speaking, more and more jobs are requiring a post-secondary degree, and
advising people against getting one is generally speaking bad advice... while
there are the odd outliers, they are just that, outliers.

~~~
coryl
Actually I didn't say all school is for suckers, I drew the line at hard
sciences and soft sciences.

Survivorship bias is real, but so is remarkably low return on investment. Its
just harder to measure in people.

~~~
michaelbuddy
your headline said "most people" \-- and the whole "investment" thing is very
hard. Which is why you shouldn't frame your discussion with certainties even
in the headline. There are enough idiots out there telling people not to
bother studying, both in words and by example. You want people hungry to work
on tough problems, but they have to know what they are. And they have to see a
variety of opportunities out there.

College is NOT an absolute fast track to employment. But it's an excellent
reliable way to do that. Plus it's a fantastic place to find out more about
yourself, meeting people, friends and for relationships. A lot of people have
the college drinking perception. Which there is too much drinking, but there
are a lot more ways to meet people in college where you're not drinking than
in the working world.

Again just respect the work you and other people have done to get where we all
are. Just to say "most people shouldn't go" is ridiculous. We want MORE people
going. Show them how to do it in a financially responsible way. If that's too
boring then stick to what you know.

~~~
caminante
Nailed it.

I would even go so far to say that OP's anecdotal quotes from friends in
"investment research" weaken his conclusion (i.e. I'm (100%) sure I'd be a
millionaire if I'd started my current job 4 years earlier. But in order to get
my current job, I must've gone to school for 4 years.)

~~~
coryl
The perhaps hidden point was that it is ludicrous that the best value of a
degree is it lands you an interview/job, and not that it gives you as much
skill otherwise.

~~~
caminante
Forgive me, but I'm struggling to keep your argument straight. Your post goes
back and forth.

For example, there's a subtle difference between these two stances...

your title: _" A dirty secret: Most people probably shouldn’t go to school"_

your conclusion: _" So here’s a dirty secret of our times: you MAY just be
better off not going to school."_

If you're arguing that education could be faster and cheaper, I don't think
that comes out in your post due to other distracting claims and anecdotes.

------
autoreleasepool
You can get a lot out of a degree program if you try. It takes effort on your
part not just the school's. As someone who is currently working on a SECOND
bachelor's in CS (my first one was an economics), I can honestly say I'm
learning way more than I ever did the first time around. I'm also learning way
more than I possibly could on my own. I'm becoming a well rounded programmer.
Instead of pigeonholing myself as self taught RoR or iOS dev, I'm learning the
proper foundations needed to do more or less anything in the field. Combined
with the effort I'm putting in my own side projects, I truly believe that the
value of this education has been worth every penny.

To be fair, I actually had this exact same sentiment about college before I
enrolled in the CS program. I really didn't put in more than the absolute
minimum effort towards my Econ degree. At the time, I was focused on just
getting the piece of paper; I waved my hand at the resources available to me.

The difference in maturity between then and now is also a factor. I almost
feel as if I would have been better off taking a few years off between high
school and undergrad. I would have had the maturity to appreciate all that a
University offers.

~~~
littletimmy
What school accepts people for a second bachelors? I have been seriously
thinking of doing that but I thought most schools didn't accept people for a
second bachelors.

~~~
OSUCSstudent
Oregon State University offers a post-bacc program specifically for people who
already have bachelor's.

------
lotso
The most valuable thing I received from my school was my network of friends
and a place to learn and grow as a person.

~~~
Animats
That's what the Ivy League is really for. Getting into Harvard is difficult,
but getting through Harvard is easy.

------
jarjoura
Before I went to "college" (it still feels wrong for me to say University
lol), I too thought it would be a waste of time. I really just wanted to get
out in the real-world and work. Then I went into my freshman year basically
partying my grades away and crushed my ego to a little pea. Actually, it turns
out you have to work your ass off to do well in an undergraduate program. So I
learned how to study and I learned how to become disciplined enough to say no
to distractions.

True, the computer science part of my degree was the easy part, but the other
courses, the "liberal arts" part, that was the tough part that also expanded
my mind. I loved most of my classes because in reality, I love learning. I
love seeing the world through different lenses.

University life is also about meeting life-long friends and self discovery.
EVEN if software engineering can be distilled to just learning a language to
instruct a computer, going to college is still a giant stepping stone in life
that I think every capable individual should experience.

~~~
vlan0
Man, I connected so much with your thoughts on college that it's a little
scary. Are we the same person?

------
claypoolb
I work for a Fortune 10 company and when we are hiring young professionals, a
degree signifies the individual has a certain level of commitment, dedication,
and has the ability to achieve goals (aka win!).

Additionally, I have always noticed that taking a single individual's
experience can lead me to taking their experience out of context. That
situation is typically compounded especially when a understand very little
about the person as an individual.

I would argue that Cory's experience does not reflect the average (to be fair
I only began to understand the value of statistics while pursuing my college
degree). In fact, check this chart out... seems like a no-brainer to me:
[http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm](http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm)

~~~
jekrb

        > a degree signifies the individual has a certain level of commitment, dedication, and has the ability to achieve goals (aka win!).
    
    

Can't you also say the same about a young person without a degree, yet is
still achieving levels of success in their field?

In fact, wouldn't this person have _more_ commitment, dedication, and ability,
as they have the critical thinking skills to become knowledgeable and
experienced, without having to fork tons of money and time to an institution?

~~~
caminante
You can't say the same with the same degree of efficiency.

If someone's a no-degree superstar, they have to network or market themselves
harder to get on claypoolb's radar. Information exchange is more expensive.

degree+GPA's a reasonable filter to pass over lots of candidates. Mind you,
claypoolb's also talking about entry-level positions (I think...)

------
ibebrett
I have a feeling if this person had actually gone to school for CS they would
have thought it equally useless. Most CS programs don't concentrate on say
building iOS apps etc.

~~~
txu
I learned iOS myself, and I know it would be harder for me if I didn't learn
different flavors of programming languages and basic data structures at
school.

I don't know how good people are at evaluating the usefulness of knowledge and
skills they've acquired, but I'd believe there is some kind of bias. I tend to
think things I know are trivial and can be learned easily. But I've also seen
smart but non-CS background people cobbling poorly written code together only
to make it work and he wished he has taken some CS classes while at school as
well.

It might be true that smartest people can learn everything on their own, but
by definition 'most people' aren't the smartest.

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TillE
I strongly believe in eventually getting rid of most traditional university
lectures and replacing them with excellent online, free videos. However:

1) That's not all you get from a university. Labs, smaller classes, etc etc
are very important.

2) The amount material covered by currently available free courses/videos is
very, very small. You _might_ get a semi-complete computer science and math
education, but that's about it.

~~~
michaelbuddy
I dont' know about getting rid of lectures. on the one hand, I think just
being talked to formally for 90 minutes absolutely sucks. But it's not going
to be better on video. Plus maybe it helps you discipline for uninteresting
things. I like group work and discussion based stuff, however there's a limit
because I want the person who knows what the are talking about giving most of
the points, not the person who wants to be class clown or waste my time in an
expensive course.

Group work, or actually working while being able to ask questions is pretty
cool. It can always be better for any particular person but it's never going
to be perfect, so best to just keep steering it in the right direction.

I do agree that the lectures should be recorded and available. Otherwise it's
just lost to the ether when the educator quits or dies. And I need to hear
things a few times before the importance sticks.

------
Pyret
Colleges are great in that they offer nice infrastructure that's hard to find
elsewhere: amazing libraries, laboratories, possibly, access to people doing
research in the area you are interested in...Ultimately, though, everyone has
to teach their own selves.

~~~
stared
They have it. But as an undergraduate you have little possibility in using
them - only doing classes.

Libraries are a difference there, but in times of Internet they are no
monopolies.

~~~
michaelbuddy
mmm, not necessarily. If you were interested in a specific field you could
visit the class a few times and sit in, observe, ask questions of the
professor or aids on office time. If you want to do a lot of things at a
university, you can likely make it happen.

~~~
stared
In theory yes, it practice, it was hard. I mean, I got into a lab, but it was
a hard struggle to do so, with univ. system working against me (most of the
time) rather than in favour.

IMHO its mainly the difference between top-down organization (where student is
expected to perform assigned task, here: attend classes) rather than bottom-up
(where the environment offers opportunities, which can be used).

If you had a very different experience, just curious - which country/univ.?

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awkward
In this post, a holder of a business degree performs an informed cost benefit
analysis of getting a business degree and finds it wanting. Also, a well
trained twenty something argues that training can't match the benefits of his
experience.

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arunbahl
This makes the assumption that the sole goal of education is a path to a job.
That's simply not the case.

Education != vocational school.

------
cornewut
Non vitae, sed scholae discimus[1]

[1] Epistulae morales ad Lucilium, Seneca

~~~
kornish
In case anyone is wondering, this translates roughly as "We do not learn for
school, but for life." [1]

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_scholae_sed_vitae](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_scholae_sed_vitae)

~~~
jdminhbg
OP has the phrase backwards, which is either a typo or asserting that learning
is being done for the sake of satisfying school requirements rather than for
real life.

