
Fewer than 3% of cars sold in the U.S. have manual transmissions - t23
http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/laautoshow/la-fi-hy-disappearing-stick-shift-20161115-story.html
======
henrikschroder
I got my driver's license in Sweden, and the official driving handbook
completely worships manual transmissions, and makes several untrue claims
about how much better they are than automatics.

You can choose to do your road test in an automatic, but that'll earn you a
restriction on your license, barring you from driving a manual. It's probably
fair, but almost everyone (myself included) chooses to practice in manuals,
and do the test in a manual to not have that restriction, which further skews
the stats in favor of manuals.

An obligatory part of the road test is so called "eco-driving", where you have
to demonstrate your ability to drive efficiently, and one way of doing that is
to skip a gear when shifting in certain situtations. It's absolutely insane to
force people to learn this, when automatic transmissions are consistently
outperforming humans at fuel efficiency. If the traffic authorities _really_
cared about fuel efficiency, they should instead sing the praises of automatic
transmissions, but they don't, because they have an irrational love of
manuals.

And the final kicker: Road tests are done in official traffic authority cars
with double controls, and I did mine in a nice, modern, manual VW Golf, that
had a gear-shift indicator in the dash. And since the car is most often better
than you at knowing when you should shift gears, why have the manual
transmission in the first place? It's a complete farce.

The silver lining is that electric cars will just decide this issue once and
for all.

~~~
vmarsy
>when automatic transmissions are consistently outperforming humans at fuel
efficiency

Do you have data to back this up? Unless you're driving a dual clutch "dry"
transmission or a CVT, because of Physics, an automatic transmission will
always be less efficient. The Automatic transmission Torque converter [1] will
waste some of the energy provided by the engine, especially with city driving.

Also, most automatic cars tend to shift gear up too early, and can't switch to
gear n+2. Because of this, you spend more time accelerating to your cruise
speed. It's well known that accelerating rather quickly to your cruise speed
is the optimal strategy for fuel efficiency, hence the reason to switch from
3rd to 5th gear directly.

With a manual, you can also disengage the clutch when you consider it safe
(and not slowing down traffic) and you know you're going to have to stop at
the red light.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5G2zQ_3xTc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5G2zQ_3xTc)

~~~
sshanky
In modern cars, disengaging the clutch (or using neutral) when coasting
(toward a stop or down a hill) is less efficient than staying in gear. This is
because it takes some fuel to keep the engine idling, where staying in gear
allows the computer to completely cut fuel flow, as long as the forward motion
is keeping the engine turning.

~~~
nostrademons
How modern is modern? I could believe this of my 2009 Honda Fit, but I'm
fairly certain that my dad's '92 Civic, '99 Civic, and '92 Accord got better
mileage when coasting with the clutch disengaged.

~~~
Ntrails
Think about what is required to turn the engine over and prevent stalling.

-When the clutch is engaged whilst going down hill the wheels turn the engine. No Fuel Required. -When the clutch is disengaged the engine has to turn itself over - which needs fuel.

*Disclaimer, i'm sure carbourettas (sp?) could well be doing weird ass things so whilst conceptually the above holds they may well be different.

~~~
nostrademons
It's not the fuel required by the engine, it's the engine braking. Going down
a hill with clutch disengaged, the Accord would accelerate. With clutch
engaged, it would slightly decelerate. That's fuel that the engine doesn't
need to burn to accelerate it back up to cruising speed.

Ditto when coasting to a stoplight - with clutch disengaged (or in neutral),
it would coast for a longer distance, which - if you're careful and know your
vehicle - means you can let up on the gas a lot sooner.

~~~
henrikschroder
Anecdotal, but I did some tests in my previous car (a 2014 Mercedes,
automatic) and it coasted really, really, really well. In drive, downhill, on
the freeway, feet off all pedals, it would accelerate as much as if I put it
in neutral, so I think its software and transmission allowed it to perform as
good as a manual in that situation.

Not calling you out specifically, but a lot of people arguing for manual
transmissions in this thread seem to base their experiences on ~10 year old
cars or older, and weirdly assuming that nothing has happened since, that
software and technology in cars has been magically frozen in time, despite
enormous incentives for car manufacturers to improve it.

~~~
smileysteve
Automatics don't engine brake the same way, the torque converter is only fully
engaged when it has some pressure buildup, so it will slip (and not maintain
fuel cut) when coasting whenever the wheel speed won't maintain the pressure.

To test, watch your rpm when you left off the gas, if it drops to ~750-1000
rpm, your torque converter is slipping (as designed) and not maintaining fuel
cut.

To agree with you, I think the comments in this thread started from a manual
transmission standpoint and then everybody thought it applied to automatics.

~~~
fnj
It's not that simple, since everybody has had lockup torque converters (based
on a computer-controlled clutch) for a long time now. As long as the TC is
locked up, you have full engine braking. As you slow, it eventually drops out
of lockup, you see the rpm drop to idle or close to it, and you feel the
engine braking diminish (though you do still have a small amount, as the the
transmission does have pumping and drag losses).

------
zippergz
I'm a car enthusiast, and I was a manual transmission purist for many, many
years. But then I had to be honest with myself, and admit that the VAST
majority of my driving is commuting in traffic. And that driving is much less
annoying with an automatic. My leisure driving is maybe 5% less fun without a
manual, but that's far outweighed by how much better my daily commute is. At
this point, I'd only buy a manual for a car that's not a daily driver.

~~~
exclusiv
While I agree regarding traffic I think everyone would be way more courteous
and the roads would be safer if everyone drove a manual.

~~~
kaiserama
Maybe not courteous, but at least attentive. If you're driving a manual in
stop and go, it's hard to be playing with a cellphone (not that it doesn't
happen). You are being forced to spend some thought on the act of driving,
which I think is a good thing.

~~~
Cyph0n
Not really. An experienced manual driver can do it all with his/her eyes
closed. It's just like the change from new driver to experienced driver.

~~~
mikelward
One hand on the gear stick, one hand on the steering wheel, you shouldn't have
a spare hand to use your phone. Or do you steer with your knees? :)

~~~
Cyph0n
So you need to keep your hand on the stick while cruising on a long stretch of
road or highway? That's where smartphone use becomes dangerous imo.

------
bitL
I never understood how to use automatic transmission in snowy/icy conditions.
To me it's basically a lottery. With manual transmission and clutch I can
actually recover from a slide almost immediately (the moment you start sliding
you disengage transmission right away with clutch and do initial correcting
maneuver which you cut short the moment you feel any kind of traction in order
not to oversteer; it takes some practice on each car but you can try it on
empty parking lots during winter nights). This is not possible with automatic
transmission, the neutral gear still drags wheels, driving them to slide. Of
course, if you have a 300+hp engine and are a race driver, you might try to
correct it using full throttle, but don't try that with a normal car unless
you want to massively increase your chance of hitting traffic.

~~~
jbob2000
Automatics have traction control. The computer that operates the traction
control is much faster at taking power from the wheels than a human using a
clutch.

~~~
cswilly
Manual have traction control too.

------
ehnto
Holy crap, I didn't realise it was quite like that. I knew it was rare for
people to know manual transmissions but why such a preference for automatic?

In Australia pretty much everyone I know can drive manual, most cars come with
the option and most cheaper cars are manual. It was somewhat of a masculinity
thing too, and still is according to my younger siblings.

To be honest I'm surprised the most that America doesn't have that same psuedo
masculinity requirement thing happening. I am not saying it's good to have,
just that I am surprised it's not there.

As far as myself, I have always much preferred manual and find myself utterly
disillusioned with automatics. No engine braking so you're constantly between
pedals, gearbox never in the best gear because it can't predict your actions,
and they make even the nicest motors sound like droning slugs.

Even if you don't intend to go racing, a manual is just a bit more interesting
and keeps you paying attention the whole trip, in my experience at least.

~~~
Broken_Hippo
> _I knew it was rare for people to know manual transmissions, but why such a
> preference for automatic?_

I think this is twofold. First off, most drivers education doesn't teach a
manual transmission anymore, nor is drivers education a requirement. While my
parents learned on a simulator in school, I learned it from experience (and so
happy I did) - my first car was a manual.

But the second part of this is that there tends to be a very small number of
cars that even offer a manual transmission: Generally small cars, pickup
trucks, and "sporty" cars. I live in Norway now, and have a smallish 4-door
sedan with a manual transmission: The same sort of car is difficult to find in
the US.

The masculinity still happens, but I think it is simply plays out differently.
In a lot of areas, you are just as masculine in a pickup truck as a vehicle.

Sidenote: I am with you with preferring a manual transmission. In fact,
knowing how to drive one and understanding the gears helped me with an
automatic once.

~~~
torrent-of-ions
> nor is drivers education a requirement

This is it really. Americans aren't very good at driving. In the UK we are
taught that it's one of the most dangerous things you'll do in your life,
which it is. In America it's just like learning to walk. You have to do it and
it doesn't matter how you learn.

Check out the road safety stats. USA is pretty much an outlier amongst first
world countries by most metrics.

~~~
strictnein
> nor is drivers education a requirement

Not sure what state they're referring to, but it's a requirement in every
place I know of.

The general process when you're 15-16 typically includes:

\- A number of Driver's ed classes that typically end with behind the wheel
training

\- Learners permit granted that only allows you to drive with an adult (21+)
in the car.

\- Drive without incident for a certain period of time

\- Pass a written test

\- Pass a full road course

\- Full license granted

~~~
Broken_Hippo
I'm originally from Indiana. All that is actually required is that you hold a
learner's permit for a set time and pass the driving and written test.

To actually learn to drive, you just gotta have an adult in the car. In
theory, this is to teach you how to drive.

Outside of that, there are a few restrictions on the license after you start
driving, mostly on passengers from what I can remember.

Some folks do take drivers ed, which is usually offered at the high school
after school or during the summer. When folks do this, they can get their
learners permit at a younger age. It is quite common in the rural areas for
kids to learn to drive tractors when they are 13/14 or younger.

------
rwbt
A few years ago I had to learn stick shift because there was a good deal on a
car I liked and decided to see if it's worth it. Ever since, all my cars are
standard transmission and I wouldn't have it any other way. They're definitely
going away, but I'll keep buying as long as they're available.

There is something very satisfying about the mechanical nature of a stick
shift car. Mind you, I drive in traffic heavy Los Angeles and still prefer it
over an automatic transmission.

~~~
civilian
I delivered pizza one summer in a manual. I can't ever go back. :D I really
think that driving manual requires you to be more attentive... and I should
look to see if traffic accidents data backs me up.

~~~
dx034
Not sure if that's the case. While I love manual transmission, I would rather
argue that it is more dangerous as you're often forced to have one hand away
from the steering wheel, which makes it harder to react quickly.

~~~
ygra
How many people keep both hands on the steering wheel at all times (not
counting smokers or idiots on their cellphones)? Also quick reactions are
usually done with your right foot on the brake, not by swerving wildly around.

~~~
freehunter
If I'm driving on slippery roads, both hands are on the wheel so I can
counter-steer immediately if I need to. If I have to take my hand off the
wheel to shift, I've just decreased my ability to quickly counter-steer, which
is especially important if I make a mistake with the shift and accidentally
apply too much power to the wheels.

------
kriro
I have a license for manual transmission as that's the default in Germany. My
US license is expired now* but I only drove automatics there. I always thought
it was curious that the default in the US is automatic and in most other
countries I've been to it is manual...in fact there's an ego thing at play
here, too. A lot of people in Germany think automatics are for people who
can't drive properly.

My next car will be an automatic, the convenience is nice and I doubt that I
can get any extra performance out of my mediocre shifting habits. Automated or
semi-automated driving (lane control and whatnot) is also a lot nicer with
automatics (I've seen a manual that had the features and it was a usability
nightmare).

There's a couple of use cases for manuals most notably driving on icy roads
and possibly mountain regions but that's rare here. For everything else I'm
assuming automatics are optimized beyound my abilities (saving gas by motor-
breaking etc.)

*Random sidenote: German licenses don't expire. Not sure if it's different by state in the US but I could renew my US license by paying some money, there's no renewal test AFAIK

~~~
lucaspiller
> German licenses don't expire.

It's effectively this in the U.K. (mine will expire in 50 years), but in Italy
they do expire - so it's not an EU wide thing.

~~~
phee
> but in Italy they do expire

They do expire but you don't have to take a new drive test. It's more about
periodically checking you're still physically fit to drive (e.g. you need to
take a mandatory eyesight test every few years).

------
bane
Just got back from another trip to Europe where I encountered the slightly odd
European preference for manuals. I can kind of see why, the car culture is
quite different from the States -- where most cars are two or three
generations beyond the kind of automatics most Europeans associate with the
transmission type. The inverse is that most European diesels are two or three
generations beyond what most Americans associate with the type.

The cars in Europe seem to be sharply divided between small, efficient feeling
manual hatchbacks and powerful autobahn chewing rear wheel drive German
luxury/sport sedans that will pass you on the inside lane like you're standing
still when you're already going 140kph.

I think because Europeans simply don't see most advanced American, Japanese
and Korean cars they simply have no idea what we're getting on about and they
have virtually no experience with the state of the art in modern
transmissions. Having just spent a few weeks driving around in a manual again,
it felt pretty absurd and old timey to be honest.

For example, the absurdly tiny golfcart/hatchback I was touring around in
claimed around 17km/l fuel efficiency, I don't think I ever quite hit that, I
was more in the 15-16 km/l range. It was so small, I couldn't fit both my
luggage and my friends in it, and it struggled to maintain speed on hills with
the aircon on.

Coming back home, my very modern, full sized Japanese sedan hits around 19km/l
on most daily drives. Plus I can actually put both people and luggage in it at
the same time, and it hits highway speeds with absolutely no drama. Most new
full-sized cars in the U.S. are getting somewhere around that fuel efficiency,
and the cars are closer in size to the autobahn chewers than the econohatches.

I couldn't really find any particular advantage to driving a manual, and I
drove it for about 3,000km just on this trip. But there were tons of
disadvantages. When I asked my friends why the preference, all I got back
where vague statements about "being more in touch with the car" and a bunch of
outdated old-wives tales about fuel efficiency.

~~~
torrent-of-ions
Are you seriously saying a modern full sized automatic sedan is more efficient
than a modern compact car? Or are you actually comparing a modern sedan to an
old compact?

Those turbocharged <1L little hatchbacks would absolutely trounce your big car
for efficiency. And for a lot of people, whose primary use of a car is taking
themselves to work, it makes an awful lot of sense.

~~~
bane
Yes, and I actually provided the economy figures in my comment. It's crazy,
but modern drivetrains in big cars can make the big cars more efficient than
small hatchbacks.

------
ChuckMcM
And it isn't all because people don't want to buy them, according to a VP at
Subaru it is the cost of taking the car with a manual transmission through the
California emissions qualification process, and maintaining records for a car
that only 10% of the customers will buy. And they don't offer a non-California
model because people were upset about moving to California with a car and then
having the state DMV reject it as not qualified!

I'm seriously trying to figure out if I can import a car from Germany (where
they appreciate a fine manual transmission) and get it licensed here in
California.

~~~
Scaevolus
Similarly, California's laws on furniture flammability generally mean that
upholstery is soaked in carcinogens in an attempt to make it burn slower-- but
it doesn't actually have any benefits in a fire.

~~~
tomjakubowski
What's the similarity, other than this is also a California regulation?

Sitting on carcinogenic furniture because of a misguided upholstery safety
regulation isn't really the same as being "forced" into driving an automatic
because of a "misguided" (if you'd call it that) environmental regulation. The
potential harm isn't comparable.

(Also, FWIW, I drive a legal CA car with a stick shift.)

------
JoeAltmaier
All of mine are manual. Live on a gravel road - can't properly drive on loose
gravel with an automatic. Then you have to creep along at 10mph. I can do 55
in my Subaru.

Another downside of auto - they have all sorts of 'traction control features'
that take over the accelerator. What that really means is, when driving on
loose gravel they start to vibrate like one of those old vibrating-football-
game toys and the car then drifts uncontrollably in a random direction.
Totally dangerous.

With a manual I can do a controlled four-wheel drift onto a snow-covered road
and end up aligned in any desired lane. Try to do that in an automatic.

~~~
larrik
Isn't doing 55 on gravel going to destroy your paint?

Traction Control, on paved roads, is extremely beneficial, and one of the best
safety innovations since seatbelts.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
On smooth dry paved roads anyway. I live up here in the Arctic Zone (as my OK
brother-in-law calls it) and we have weather. And gravel.

------
mdimec4
Quote: "And it takes a really patient instructor to teach it."

That is bullshit.

It is not that hard, everybody can learn it with little guidance and practice.

The law here in some parts of Europe (e.g. Slovenia) states, that if you make
licence with automatic, then you are licensed only to drive automatic, but if
you make it with manual, you can drive everything.

So literally everybody here learns manual. Most of them are 18 years old when
they start.

Most of the cars are manuals here anyway. But trend goes in favour of
automatics for high end cars,

~~~
6stringmerc
It can be picked up rather easily in a modern car, sure, but I'd like to note
that not all manual transmissions are the same. As in, to drive many of them
well, it does take a patient instructor and diligent student to understand the
fundamentals, timing, muscle coordination, etc. To your point, yes, everybody
can probably do it, but can they do it well?

The test I grew up with was a 1991 Ford Ranger, V6, 5 speed manual. The clutch
engagement was extremely narrow and the V6 was kind of underpowered,
especially with the A/C on in Texas, so learning how to make smooth take-offs
was very difficult. I wasn't allowed to take that truck out on my own until I
could drive around a passenger with a cup of coffee, not to the brim but
definitely there, and not be rough to cause a spill. It was a high bar in my
opinion.

Years later, my VW GTi 5 speed and clutch felt like an absolute dream,
buttery, easy. Learning on the much harder transmission, in my opinion, was
beneficial.

~~~
mdimec4
Yes some older cars are I imagine were rely hard.

My mom is totaly non car person, but in old days she had a car with non Non-
synchronous 1-st and 2-nd gear. And she managed to figure it out and drive it.

This sounds hard to me :)

------
rvanmil
I switched to automatic a year ago and I'm glad I did. Stick shift feels
ancient already, and besides it's just annoying once you realize it can be
done automatically. I'm from The Netherlands though, so most of my colleagues
and friends call me "grandpa" now, because automatic is, as they say, for old
people; almost everyone here drives stick shift.

~~~
exclusiv
I don't feel it's annoying. If you have a shifter it feels like you're
actually driving.

People will long for manuals as we move more and more into autopilot.

Manual transmission. Double edge razor. Smoker grill. Get off my lawn. It's
kind of beautiful.

~~~
clarry
I use a straight razor, and would love a man tran. But I can't really afford a
car and I got this 20-year-old automatic for free so it's what I live with.

------
sergiotapia
Driving manual in heavy traffic is a pain in the ass. RIP your calves.

I've driven manual in Bolivia since I learned how to drive, but when I moved
back to the States I picked automatic because I would kill myself having to
press the clutch every 40cm during heavy traffic.

People have this romanticized view of manual driving, going through empty
hills, warm sun beating on your raybans. In reality you'll be stuck in traffic
for 30-50 minutes per day for your commute.

It's a shame though, because manual transmissions are much easier to repair
than automatics - according to my mechanic "Come Gato", back in Santa Cruz.

~~~
nappy
I've never found driving a manual hard on my calves... even a little bit.
Maybe just me? Or something you get used to if you drive a manual all of the
time?

~~~
bradlys
Drive a car with a very stiff and/or difficult clutch.

The difference between a Honda Civic or Miata clutch and something like a Jeep
is pretty wide. I've only driven a handful of manuals but I have pulled a
muscle in my left leg from driving an YJ Jeep. Stop and go will wear down your
leg real fast in that. Not a great feeling to be limping around a bit the rest
of the next day or two.

Only happened once in the 10k I drove it but my leg frequently got very tired
after crawling traffic.

~~~
beachstartup
just to add: a heavy clutch can require 50+ pounds of pressure in a sports car
or a jeep/truck/etc.

i would be surprised if even 5% of manual-drivers have driven a vehicle like
that even once in their life.

------
datashovel
I'm in US, and am always struggling to find new cars when I'm ready to buy
because of this probably. Just recently I visited a dealership where the sales
guy told me flat out "manual transmissions are extremely rare anymore".

It may be a diagnose-able issue :) but I was a wreck (literally) when I first
started driving because I would lose focus on the road.

Manual transmission, it seems to me, gives me a far better "feel" for the
current state of the car. How fast I'm going, and because I have to change
gears it keeps me more focused on the monotony of driving.

So far in my recent search I've been reluctant to even consider an automatic
transmission because of what may or may not be just a psychological crutch.

~~~
Retric
Have you tried a car with paddle shifters? There is no clutch, but you still
select gears.

Now they don't provide every advantage of a manual transmission, but you can
for example downshift to avoid excessive breaking.

~~~
chronolitus
Don't they provide none of the advantages of an automatic (ease of mind in
traffic), and all the disadvantages (less mechanical and power efficiency,
etc..)

As far as I know, they're pretty much only useful in racing

~~~
sergiosgc
It depends on the technology.

Double clutch automatic transmissions are manual transmissions with a robot
that changes gears. The double clutch allows for the car to switch gears using
clutches, so there is no jerky behavior. They give you as much control as a
manual transmission, but only when you want to. Best of both worlds.

Some paddle shifters are automatic transmissions and the paddles actuate the
torque converter. The worst of both worlds.

------
kweinber
Manual shifting is neither possible nor even relevant in electric cars or cvt
(continuous variable transmission) cars.

Their rise will be the true end of the stick shift.

~~~
Annatar
It's possible if an electric car had a manual transmission, but no company had
yet built one because electric motors cam regulate revolutions per minute with
amperage and voltage. However, no studies that I'm aware of to determine
whether the battery range could be extended with gear ratios have been
performed.

~~~
extrapickles
The main issue is that the efficiency curve of a electric motor is fairly flat
once it gets >60% load[0]. There is a small hump typically around 60-80%
output that is most efficient, but its only a few percent at best, so not
worth the cost of a high torque transmission as adding a few extra batteries
to cover the loss at slow speeds is much cheaper.

When cost is no object (eg: racing) you see transmissions so they can get peak
power for longer.

Even in a application that I was involved in where power was ~$200/Watt, fixed
gearing was chosen as the extra weight of the transmission made the whole
system less efficient than what was gained by the transmission.

[0]:
[http://digitalcommons.calpoly.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?articl...](http://digitalcommons.calpoly.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1004&context=bae_fac)
(Its for Irrigation pumps, but still in the same class of power output as
cars)

------
bischofs
One of the things HN always harps on is automation of work and effort that
humans do as to free us up time to work on stuff that we really want to do (
creative efforts, time with family etc).

But if in the process of automating everything in life we remove the simple
joys that many get out of things like driving then we are moving in the wrong
direction.

If I didn't have to do the dishes or grocery shop I would probably fill that
time driving my various cars because they give me great joy rowing through the
gears and connecting with the machinery of the car. We should be hesitant
trying to make life too efficient and removing the things people enjoy doing.

------
allendoerfer
For me this is an emotional topic. I want everybody else to use it, but I
myself do not want an electric car, an automatic car or a general speed limit.
Arguing about stuff like this with (some) Germans is like arguing about guns
with (some) Americans. Sure, there is a reasonable position, which is better
for society. I don't care, don't take away my [insert toy here]!

~~~
manmal
How would it be better for society if everybody had automatic transmission?

~~~
gambiting
I would call myself a "car enthusiast" and I drive an automatic - I feel like
even in dangerous situations, I have full control of the car. Whether it's
sudden need to stop or accelerate, I have full control. In a manual car I've
had a few near-accidents where the car just stalled because I was so
concentrated on braking and avoiding the obstacle - Which was great, except
that I found myself in a middle of a dual carriageway, sideways, with my
engine off, stressed to hell, so actually moving out of the way was a huge
effort. I had a similar situation in an automatic and there's no such problem
- you need to brake, you brake. You need to accelerate - you accelerate. I
just think that an automatic transmission allows you to concentrate much more
on what's going on around you, without having to worry about being in correct
gear and using the clutch.

~~~
exclusiv
Never experienced that but you have way more control in a manual excluding
powerful electric cars.

You need to stop fast, well you have gears to utilize quickly in a manual.
Need a pop to get out of a sticky situation? Drop the gear to get in the power
band and pull away. I don't understand your argument other than manuals being
more error prone.

Certainly you could stall it in an intersection if you aren't experienced as
an example.

I haven't seen a report on this but I'd wager manuals were safer in practice
before the smartphone and became even safer after. You can't be messing around
with distractions nearly as much in a manual.

~~~
gambiting
Sure, but in a manual some percentage of my brain is always dedicated to
thinking about which gear I'm in. In an automatic I have 100% attention on the
road.

And when I said "stop quickly" I meant "a person steps out on the road in
front of you". Gears won't help you here, because I don't believe anyone can
downshift in the 2 seconds left to impact - the best you can do is press the
brake as hard as you can. The difference is that in a manual every time I had
to do that I was left with a stalled car because I didn't press the clutch in
time, while with an automatic I could move out of the way very quickly.

I don't know man, I've been driving manuals for the past 7 years, and I bought
an AMG car this year - which only comes with a 7-speed DCT transmission. I
would never ever go back to a manual, unless it was like a Miata, or GT86 -
those cars I want to drive with a manual, because they are super fun on a back
road with a manual. But daily drive + almost 400 bhp? Only an automatic.

Edit: also, you are saying that in a sticky situation you can just drop a gear
to get in the power band, like you can't do it in an automatic - in an
automatic, you just press the throttle down and it drops as many gears as
needed. Want full maximum acceleration that the car can technically offer at
the moment? Press it fully. Want to accelerate quickly but without dropping 3
gears down? Press it half way. I feel like that's tons more control than in a
manual.

~~~
seszett
> _in a manual every time I had to do that I was left with a stalled car
> because I didn 't press the clutch in time, while with an automatic I could
> move out of the way very quickly._

I can see it happening, and I've observed it with people who have learnt to
drive on auto, but that's just a reflex problem due to inexperience.

If you're used to driving manual, just don't have to think about disengaging
the clutch when braking hard, but you still do it, and you don't stall.

As for "pressing the throttle down and it drops as many gears as needed", in
my experience it takes a noticeable amount of time until the car understands
it has to drop gears. It's just not really rational to argue that an auto car
gives you as much control as a manual.

~~~
gambiting
Well, I come from a country where automatics are almost non-existent and very
much frowned upon(Poland). I've only learned in a manual, and I haven't driven
an automatic until after I already had 5 years of experience in a manual, and
then drove a manual for another few years anyway. Had a selection of both
sports and off-road vehicles, all in manual - yet I never had the reflex to
press both clutch and brake in an emergency situation - it was always full
brake first, clutch second.

In my experience, with all the autos I've driven, the transmission downshifts
much quicker, smoother, and more intuitively than I ever could. Maybe I've
only ever driven top-tier automatics, and a normal auto box is poor in that
regard. No idea.

------
Yaggo
I'm from Europe and learnt to drive with manual, but after getting used to my
Prius' CVT, would never buy a car with manual for daily use. (Besides, my next
car won't have an ICE.)

If you occasionally like "sporty" driving with manual shifting, modern
automatics will paddle-shift quicker than most people with a real stick &
clutch. Manual gearbox is just an artifact from ICE's very limited torque
curve.

~~~
lucaspiller
> Prius' CVT

It should be noted the transmission in a Prius isn't really a CVT. A
traditional mechanical-CVT can be slow to respond as it still requires the
transmission to mechanically move which means it can feel 'soft'. In the
Prius' 'e-CVT' there is no mechanical linkage that needs to move, so it
responds instantly.

The electric motors can provide their full torque while the ICE is at 0 RPM,
so when you push your foot down, you get a good amount of power without
waiting for the engine to spin up to higher RPMs, as with a traditional
automatic transmission (vs a mechanical transmission, where you can run the
engine faster and use the clutch to limit the amount of power delivered to the
wheels). This is why the Telsa's ludicrous mode is a thing - unlike an ICE,
electric motors provide the highest torque from 0 RPM.

~~~
Yaggo
Agree, calling Prius transimission a "CVT" is understatement, "electro-
mechanical torque converter" would be more accurate term. Despite the Prius
drivers having a reputation of being slow, the car is pretty quick, especially
from red light start. Actually it makes you feel that other cars accelerate
annoyingly slowly.

------
sturmeh
I highly recommend everyone learns to drive a manual before it becomes a dead
art, it's truly a lot more fun and engaging experience.

That being said there's obvious cause for the shift to all-automatic, just
like we'll all be using self-driving cars not long in the future.

However what concerns me is that automatic transmissions are not only more
expensive in general, but harder to maintain / less reliable. That a trend of
laziness has created this demand, to the point where 97% of US consumers
choose to pay more to automate the process I find so enjoyable.

To be fair a majority use case for driving is daily commute, and it's not
nearly as fun to drive a manual in heavy traffic as it is to cruise windy
roads on the weekend.

~~~
hx87
> but harder to maintain

I'd have to dispute that--ATF change intervals are about the same as clutch
change intervals (disregarding the "lifetime ATF" crap that manufacturers
peddle) but cost far less, and otherwise automatic transmissions today last
the lifetime of the car.

~~~
jperras
I think what he was getting at is:

if so inclined, you can repair or replace your own clutch (as a hobbyist or
someone who is mechanically inclined), but doing the same to a hydraulic-based
automatic transmission or a CVT is a tall order unless you are professionally
trained.

------
TadasPaplauskas
well, here's the ultimate theft protection for ya.

Of course driving manual in traffic is pain in the ass, but I would prefer to
skip heavy traffic anyways, instead of trying to make it somewhat more
bearable.

Had some experience driving automatic in Cyprus, which is very mountainous. It
was impossible to keep constant speed, as car was constantly trying to find
"optimal" gear for every hill and slope, instead of finding optimal gear for
the whole trip. Ended up using sport mode, which just kept the engine working
at higher RPMs. Not optimal in any way.

I'm sure there are great automatics, but unfortunately not in my price range.
There's a difference between automatic ferarri and automatic hyundai.

------
massysett
I live in an area (in USA) with a lot of car theft. A police officer said the
easiest theft prevention is to buy a stick because the thieves can't drive
them. He said they had a really nice bait car, but because it was a stick
nobody stole it.

~~~
Broken_Hippo
That is a bonus!

Similar story: My father (and now, my brother) had a 1963 pickup truck that he
always left unlocked. He said he never worried about anyone stealing it
because he figured most folks couldn't drive it. Not only was it a manual, but
it was a 3-speed manual you shifted from the column, so it looked like an
automatic inside but yet very much wasn't.

~~~
beachstartup
this is called a three-on-the-tree car. as opposed to a four-on-the-floor.

~~~
Broken_Hippo
Yeah, I know, I just wasn't sure how many people would recognize the term. :)

------
jinushaun
Because you can't actually buy them. I bought a car a few years ago, the
option was base trim with manual or all other trims in automatic. It was very
frustrating.

If the choice is between automatic windows, dual climate control, heated
seats, etc or a manual, you'd be a fool to choose the manual no matter how
much you prefer it over an automatic. Then of course, the "sales data" feeds
back to the manufacturer and everyone keeps buying into the notion that no one
wants manuals.

~~~
vcarl
I recently purchased a Fiesta ST, which (along with the Focus ST) bucks this
trend. The Fiesta is a cheap car, but the highest trim package, ST, is
exclusively available as a manual and adds 70 HP. The Focus ST is the same,
with an even bigger HP bump.

Hopefully somebody else decides to compete with Ford for the budget enthusiast
market, and we get a bunch of fun manuals :)

~~~
mrchucklepants
I also own a 2015 Fiesta ST as my daily driver. It's the most fun I've ever
had in a car.

~~~
vcarl
Did you do the driving class, Octane Academy? It's not well publicized, but
the ST comes with a free driving class in Utah (you pay for travel and
accommodations), but it's only valid within a year of buying it.

------
pmontra
In my experience automatic is ok if driving in city traffic or on a highway,
much more comfortable than manual. On a highway one is always in 5th anyway,
or driving stop and go in a traffic jam.

When I drive on some hill or mountain road, I feel safer on manual because I
know how much the car can hold the road in a turn given the gear I'm using and
the speed I'm carrying into the turn. With an automatic gear it usually feels
like it's using a higher gear then it should, so I have to drive unnecessarily
slower and use brakes more, which can't be good for them.

Anyway, cars with both sequential shifting and automatic transmission are
becoming common so one can have both manual and automatic. If I have to buy a
car again I'll go with something like that. Some high end cars have paddles on
the steering wheel to shift gears up and down, like in Formula 1.

------
vbezhenar
In my country (Kazakhstan, and Russia, AFAIK) manual transmissions are popular
with cheap cars, where $500 is a huge difference for buyer. With more
expensive cars manual transmission are extremely rare (only BMW have them,
AFAIK). So it's basically a choice between cheap and expensive options.

I personally like manual transmission. It cheaper, it's not hard to use, it's
significantly cheaper to repair, car with manual transmission could be towed
or could tow another car, etc. So for me is a bit of convenience does not
outweight drawbacks and extra cost.

------
0xAA55
I recently went to the ends of the earth to get a 2016 manual VW sportwagen in
the US -- but it was possible after going to dealerships looking at me like I
was insane.

Shifting around in my BMW e36 5 speed will always be one of my greatest
pleasures <3 -- nothing gets me up better for work than knowing I can speed
around like an asshole on the way :)

People complain about traffic, but I feel the opposite. I mean, in an auto if
you see a spot to cut into you are forced to floor it to force the car in a
low enough gear -- it feels like the car is suffering vrrrAHHHHHHHHER

~~~
ollie87
I also find it funny that people prefer autos for stop-start traffic. But
every single car I've ever owned can be moved using the clutch alone, zero
throttle input, so moving in stop start traffic is easy.

~~~
namaemuta
That's only because some manual cars have acceleration on their clutch but
many others don't. I've driven some that don't have it and if you don't know
how to do it, your engine will stop and you'll have to reignite it (with the
annoyance of people honking at you).

It's also an annoyance when the traffic moves at different pace in a traffic
jam because you have to stop, switch to first gear, move slowly, if the cars
are moving fast enough switch to second gear, if they stop back again to first
gear... If you are lucky enough and you are in a slope road, you can go
without any gear selected and just use the brakes.

------
jfitbsidbfb
This is unfortunate given that manufacturers regularly game fuel mileage tests
fof automatics to give buyers a sense of better gas mileage(to justify the
higher price). Real world tests by consumer reports and others continue to
show that manual transmissions get better gas mileage in real world conditions
on top of being much more reliable.

And before someone mentions it, a clutch wearing out during the working life
of a modern manual car is a joke. I've driven multiple manual cars to over
200k miles and never had to replace a clutch. If you wear out a clutch your
car is defected or (more likely) you're utterly terrible at driving stick

~~~
viraptor
> a clutch wearing out during the working life of a modern manual car is a
> joke

Could use a reference. The wear will depend a lot on your area - mountain
roads will kill it faster than suburban commute. But either way, I tried to
find anything more authoritative than a forum post (which say anything between
100k and 300k), and it's pretty hard to do. Have you got a link with an actual
survey or producer stats?

~~~
jfitbsidbfb
I can't find anything official either. Most of the guys I know also drive
stick and none of them have worn out a clutch unless they take their car to
the track. Seems to be a pretty well known among stick drivers that
manufacturers build them to last the life of the car these days. Can anyone
from Europe chime in on this?

~~~
ollie87
European here, only ever owned manual cars, had about eight cars in my
lifetime. Never needed to replace a clutch, mostly a mix of urban and rural
driving. My yearly mileage has varied from 25,000 miles a year to around 8,000
now.

It helps that I actually know how to drive and not burn the fuck out of a
clutch too I'd imagine. You see very dumb people in my country using their
clutch to hold their car stationary on a hill, what the hell that is all about
I'll never know.

~~~
fnj
Correct. It is very possible to burn out a clutch in less than 3000 miles if
you are clueless, but if you are a good driver, 300,000+ miles is not unusual.

------
MrBlue
Outside of the US/Canada this stat is most likely the inverse.

~~~
voycey
Certainly the case in the UK, Australia is probably 60/40 Manual to Auto

------
danans
An unusual use of a manual transmission (in a motorcycle) is Brammo's Empulse
R, which is fully electric, but has a 6 speed manual transmission just to give
it a classic ICE motorcycle manual-shifting experience, and to give it a tiny
bit more acceleration from a dead stop.

This review comparing it to Zero's single-speed electric motorcycle seems to
suggest it's mostly not worth the added complexity:

[http://www.cycleworld.com/2013/10/31/brammo-empulse-r-vs-
zer...](http://www.cycleworld.com/2013/10/31/brammo-empulse-r-vs-zero-s-
electric-motorcycles-comparison-test-specs-photos)

EDIT: apparenly Brammo sold their motorycle business to Victory:
[http://www.victorymotorcycles.com/en-us/electric/empulse-
tt-...](http://www.victorymotorcycles.com/en-us/electric/empulse-tt-titanium-
silver-havasu-red)

------
aabajian
I think it's fair to say at this point that people aren't buying manual for
the fuel economy, but for the fun and control provided by the interface. I
think if you take a look at cars that come only in manual in 2015, they take a
distinctly sporty direction: [http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-
culture/g6415/13-manual-only...](http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-
culture/g6415/13-manual-only-cars/?slide=5)

------
nepotism2016
I got to San Francisco last October and was due to pickup my "top class"
rental car from AVIS. I got to the parked car and noticed it was automatic. I
straight away thought this was a mistake and ran upstairs to ask for a manual
transmission car. The two ladies before the counter looked all confused and
said I would be very lucky to find such car...something like a sports car.

So I spent the next 20 minutes inside the car trying to figure out how I'm
going to operate a saloon, automtic (I havent driven before), wrong side of
the road on a busy motorway (san fransciso airport is next to the highway)...

By the end of my "training" week...I loved the automatic transmission...It
even allowed me to roll my window down, hang my arm out while playing
California love by Tupac&DR Dre....American dream?

~~~
T-zex
You mean right side of the road? (left side being wrong)

------
magoon
It's harder for a manufacturer to implement an effective stability control
system in a manual. The federal mandate of safety features after the
Explorer/Firestone problems included that all cars have stability control and
TPS. The tire systems are easy, but stability control usually combines ABS
with engine cutoff. In order for engine cutoff to work, the transmission must
be engaged. This is also why automatics stay in gear when you're going
downhill They call a feature "Downhill Assist" where the car attempts to
maintain a stable speed relative to the pressure on the accelerator pedal.
Combined with uphill assist, this makes for a more consistent driving
experience.

------
rgzn
I think anyone who drives off-road in the mountains knows how much better
sticks are then automatics. It's extremely frustrating to take automatic
trucks on steep off road terrain.

~~~
lb1lf
-I beg to differ. My current 4x4 fun vehicle is an old Land Cruiser with an auto box. I do not miss manual shift at all. Low 2nd and off I go, for the most part.

No need to work my left foot like a drummer in a speed metal band.

Having some sort of terrain response system like just about any current 4x4
does makes it even simpler.

------
pja
Off-topic, but I opened this page without any tracking or ad-blocking & after
about 30 seconds of reading, was treated to _two_ video adverts which were
off-screen but playing audio at the same time. One would have been obnoxious
enough, but 2 simultaneously was just awful.

Online ads do the marketing for ad-blocking all by themselves don't they?

------
kasey_junk
My most recent car purchase was a manual transmission Subaru Impreza.
Technically, it is the bottom end car that Subaru sell in the USA.

I had to get on a wait list and put a deposit on it because of how few were
available.

I suspect there is higher demand for manual transmission cars in the USA but
the distribution costs of them make it just simpler to not drive one.

~~~
Tsarbomb
To be fair, Subaru has amazing CVT technology which probably skews the stats
even more again manual.

------
SwellJoe
I always want a manual transmission, but they're so hard to find. My most
recent vehicle purchase was a truck (a big diesel pickup for hauling a travel
trailer). They simply don't make big pickup trucks with a manual transmission,
anymore, which is a damned shame.

My vehicle before that (a Nissan 350Z) had a manual transmission, but I had to
insist on it, and wait for it to arrive from another dealer across the state.

It makes me sad, because the fun of driving for me is dramatically reduced by
an automatic transmission. But, I guess we won't be driving ourselves for too
much longer, anyway.

------
jakelarkin
20 years ago automatics were 1) much more expensive 2) had worse gas mileage
3) were slow shifting 4) did not have fast up/down shift controls 5) had
sloppy throttle response

thanks to economies of scale and new technology, car makers have bridged the
gap on all fronts. So while I personally prefer manuals I can see why most
people just get automatics, given the high cost of learning manual.

teaching people to stop-start manual on steep hills is extremely hard and
frustrating for all parties. it's hard on the car too.

~~~
chrisper
Newer cars (even manual ones) have hill assist which avoids your car rolling
back on the hill.

------
WalterBright
A stick is the only way to go for a muscle car. My first muscle car was a '67
Mustang, which had a problematic transmission. The first thing I did was
convert it to a 4 speed manual.

My '72 Dodge has a Tremec 5 speed manual heavy duty. It's a sweet shifter,
indeed.

~~~
Annatar
Former 2004 Holden Monaro / Pontiac GTO driver here. Six speed manual
transmission, 5.7L LS1 engine. 2nd gear lockout disabled, high RPM range cam.

One of the best driving experiences of my life: a V8 and a manual transmission
is a match made in heaven.

~~~
WalterBright
Yeah, not much feels as good as running up through the gears with a strong V8!
I'll be sad when they finally ban those cars from the road.

------
attilak
Meanwhile in Eastern Europe people still can't afford a car with automatic
transmission...

~~~
imjustsaying
Don't be misled; many in America can't afford any kind of car. Even many who
have them go into perpetual debt to do so.

~~~
nommm-nommm
8 year (96 month) car loans are becoming a "thing" in America. Sure, a car
that's cost more than your yearly salary looks "affordable" if you only look
at the monthly payments and you can manipulate those payments by stretching
out the loan forever. I believe 30 year mortgages being "standard" are also
kinda a scam[1] for this reason.

Basically the idea everyone having many monthly payments is acceptable.

When I bought my car I did finance it but on my own payment schedule because
apparently the dealer didn't offer 12 month financing.

[1] I'm using "scam" broadly I don't think it's a real scam in the literal
sense of the word but I can't think of another word. Misleading?

~~~
fnj
The difference is that you can get an honest 3.5% fixed APR on a 30 year
mortgage, but nothing close to that for a car loan, unless it is a subsidized
scam.

~~~
nommm-nommm
Where? In the United States if you have great credit you can get a car loan
for under 2% APR in the US for a new car. Under 4% for a used car.

------
jff
> Radio host Adam Carolla, who collects and races vintage cars, said with a
> stick shift, drivers can’t “just lean back and go into autopilot mode.”

I think this is an overlooked advantage. Modern cars are ridiculously
powerful, yet modern drivers are more less attentive than ever. I feel like
the roads would be safer if everyone wasn't just mashing the Go pedal as soon
as the light turns green. A manual transmission promotes more mindful driving.

~~~
CWuestefeld
I intuitively agree, but this is based on my own feelings. I'd love to see an
actual scientific study demonstrating the effect.

------
SonicSoul
Porsche is actually bringing back 911 GT3 in manual thanks to popular demand
(after their older manual models went up in price). Can't wait for that #MAGA
check so I can finally buy one

[http://www.autoblog.com/2016/03/04/porsche-911-gt3-manual-
re...](http://www.autoblog.com/2016/03/04/porsche-911-gt3-manual-report/)

------
finchisko
In late 90s, when I was young and beautiful :-), I was joking about americans
being too unskilful to drive car with manual, so they need automatic. But
honestly, now I thing we europeans were just too stubborn not accepting auto
transmission and thinking we're kind of superior because of it. And nowadays
automatic transmission is becoming so popular, my 65y old dad is willing to
have it.

~~~
Annatar
Logic tells me that if I can do A and B because of A, whereas I can only do B
because of B, I'm superior in the A, B data set compared to someone who is in
just the B subset, where A, B set is driving.

~~~
finchisko
don't try to find logic in it. :-) there is none. just high ego.

------
antirez
In Italy the percentage of automatic cars is very small, I've no exact idea
but it's like the reverse of U.S. numbers, maybe 5% or 10% are automatic, even
if I bet this number is raising. Because of that I always used manual cars in
my life, but recently because of family and the realization I mostly drive in
city traffic, I got a SUV (that is normally not my preferred car) with
automatic transmission. Well... it's a lot less stress honestly _if most of
your drive happens inside a city_. However interestingly, from time to time I
use my wife's car which has manual transmission, and for a few minutes is
definitely a lot more fun. You also really never lose your practice driving
manual cars, even if you don't touch one for many months, it's like driving a
bike. So manual is cool but I would suggest people approaching driving cars to
learn the manual way to a have a more complete understanding of how a car
works and be able to use a manual car in an emergency.

------
imakesoft
I just love it how Americans are so proud if they can "drive a stick". :D
Anyway I have a Toyota Auris Hybrid and it's pretty awesome. It's really
pleasant to drive. I guess I'm lucky to be able to drive both: automatic &
manual because at least in Europe the automatic prices are way higher in
rental cars.

------
RikNieu
Where I live manual is the norm, but those I know that did switch to auto all
to prefer it. It apparently makes the drudgery of sitting in traffic more
bearable.

However, as one friend noted, once that fancy automatic gearbox goes legs
up(and your car also happens to be out of warranty), the virtues of a manual
comes calling again.

~~~
astrodust
I honestly don't see the problem of using a standard transmission in traffic.
Once you've learned how to drive with it the whole thing becomes instinct and
you don't even consciously notice.

~~~
viraptor
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill)

It's an instinct / not a problem as long as you don't know a better option. If
you didn't have a running water, the trip to the well would also be something
completely normal.

(I'm not saying that one option is universally better - just that it's easy to
justify the other position as "I've always done it this way and it's super
simple")

~~~
astrodust
I'm saying I literally don't notice that I'm driving a manual car. I just
drive.

When I'm in an automatic it's all "okay, it's like I'm driving an Xbox now."

------
krzyk
Interesting, here in Poland having automatic transmission is something unique
and preferred by weaker drivers (and richer ones), some cares even don't have
option of automatic transmission (not to mention that you usually have less
engine options with automatic).

------
philoye
This is so sad to me. Manual transmissions are just more fun, no matter which
car you have. I have a 10 year old Subaru Outback and even that (top) heavy
PoS gives me joy on a curvy road.

Of course I know that a modern auto is _way_ faster than a human, but I don't
care in the slightest. My father in law has a Mercedes C63s and holy shit is
it fast, but it would be 10x better with a stick. Spending a ton of money on a
Porsche 911 but getting an automatic is baffling to me—unless you actually
race it.

Life is too short, find fun where you can. Don't let the robots win.

~~~
TeMPOraL
> _Life is too short, find fun where you can. Don 't let the robots win._

Well, the thing is, you've found fun in how ICEs suck. You (like everyone
saying the manual is better) have turned a bug into a feature ;). Personally I
hope electric cars will win, and there's no manual transmission for electric
cars, because electric engines have flat(ter) efficiency curve and _don 't
need_ gears.

------
dfar1
I grew up in Brazil where most cars are manual. After my first automatic car,
I really missed switching gears... and I ended up going back to manual. Some
friends ask if I don't ever get tired switching gears, but after you've done
it for so long, it becomes second nature, you don't have to think about it.
Whether true or false, I feel like I have more control of the car when I'm in
control of the gear... specially when going up/down a steep hill, or going
through terrains other than asphalt.

~~~
rconti
I've only owned manual transmission cars since I was old enough to buy my own,
including my most recent car, a 2016 Golf R. In fact, I specifically bought
the Golf instead of the BMW I wanted to buy, because BMW dropped the manual
transmission choice.

I enjoy shifting, and even in bay area traffic, I simply don't get what's
"hard'" about changing gears. I'm already sitting there in front of the
controls. It really takes no additional effort or brainpower, it's second
nature. It's like complaining it's too much work to press the brake to avoid
colliding with the car in front of you. It's driving.

------
analog31
It's an interesting discussion. I've driven both stick and automatic for 35+
years. The choice was usually whatever I could lay my hands on, such as
various cast-off, used, and borrowed cars.

My family owned a full size Dodge van with a 3-speed automatic that was quite
primitive, but we took it on vacations, and drove it under the most absurd
conditions -- snow, ice, gravel, dirt, off-road, you name it. There were
specialized vehicles for off-road use, but not a lot of people had them. It
was before the era of the SUV.

I think if you drive an automatic car for a while, especially one as bad as
that Dodge van, you develop a feel for when it's going to shift. You can nudge
it up and down with the gas pedal. This is just a matter of being an attentive
driver.

Today, I prefer automatic, but am not in a hurry to get rid of our one car
with stick. I just like automation and convenience. Stepping on a pedal and
pushing a lever back and forth hundreds of times, just to get from A to B in
one piece, seems gratuitous. Hell, my wash machine chooses gears by itself,
why shouldn't my car?

I definitely made sure my daughter learned to drive stick. She took her
drivers test on it.

Is fuel economy important? Sure, but I save fuel in many ways: Driving a
smaller car, combining / eliminating trips, riding my bike, carpooling, etc.
When I see a giant SUV being used for daily commuting, I doubt the automatic
tranny is the reason why it's a waste of fuel.

------
gerbilly
I wonder of anyone else here does this. I drive manual[1], but rarely use the
clutch.

I use it to start moving in 1st gear then can shift between all tho other
gears without it. You have to get to know the speed where the engine and
drivetrain are matched. It's not that hard after a while. Shifting between
3-4th is easiest, 1st and 2nd the hardest.

I can even downshift too without clutch. You have to rev the engine a bit
while in neutral to anticipate the higher RPM speed that the lower gear would
require, then it slips in easily.

I never grind gears doing this.

I injured my left leg which made it hard to use the clutch and drove like this
for a year.

[1] I prefer manuals because of the onboard computer, especially in Toyotas
which are suspect to me due to the 'unintended acceleration'[2] problems from
a few years back. Even if the computer pegs the gas due to a bug, I can
disengage the transmission. Done. Apparently they reviewed the code as a
result of the problems, and it is a horrible mass of spaghetti code with
hundreds of global variables.

[2] The problem may not have been software and might have been driver error +
statistical clustering. E.g.: the driver puts his foot on the gas thinking
it's the brake, and due to the stress of the situation can't switch pedals
because the urge to stop the car overrides any other thinking.

~~~
fnj
Clutchless shifting is a lot of fun, but hard to do truly properly. With
synchromesh, you may not be audibly grinding the gears, but you are going to
wear the synchros unless your rev-matching is very good.

------
partycoder
Manual transmission is the best anti theft mechanism in the US.

~~~
kriro
True but it cuts both ways. Imagine you need someone else to drive your car
for whatever reason...you could be stuck.

------
chiefalchemist
You'll know we're serious about climate change when this changes. Manual gets
better gas mileage. Sure it might be a small difference but even just 3 miles
per gallon is 10% on 30 mpg. Over hundreds of thousands of cars that adds up.
But we can't be bothered. It's an inconvenience. You can't drink your soy
latte and drive at the same time if the vehicle is manual. I guess you can say
it's a matter of priorities.

~~~
dx034
The problem is also congestion. Manual trasmission is great when there's not a
lot of traffic, but it's a pain on your morning commute in LA/SF/NY/... In
Europe you either live on the countryside or use public transport. Comparably
few people are stuck every morning on the highway on their way to work (still
a few though).

~~~
Accacin
How can you make such a ridiculous and broad statement? I'm in the UK and I
commute an hour to work down the motorway/highway. With traffic it's an hour
and I drive a manual car like just about everyone else.

Most people I know still drive to work, even if the city where we live is
pretty good for public transport with a lot of buses and trams available.

~~~
dx034
I didn't look up data before, but the data seems to confirm my statement. In
the UK, 68% of the working population commutes by car [1]. In the US, it's
around 88% of commuters that commute by car [2]. In London, the share of
commuters by public transport is as high as 50% [3].

An article I found on citylab also confirms my statement somehow (although it
refers to Berlin). [4]

Now, that this influences automatic vs. manual transmission is very
subjective, I can't back that up. I could be wrong there, but the rest of the
statement is at least not "rediculous".

[1]
[https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm...](https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/489894/tsgb-2015.pdf)

[2]
[https://www.census.gov/hhes/commuting/files/2014/acs-32.pdf](https://www.census.gov/hhes/commuting/files/2014/acs-32.pdf)

[3]
[http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160105160709/htt...](http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160105160709/http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/mro/news-
release/travel-to-work/census-reveals-details-of-how-we-travel-to-work-in-
england-and-wales.html)

[4] [http://www.citylab.com/commute/2015/09/how-london-and-
berlin...](http://www.citylab.com/commute/2015/09/how-london-and-berlins-
daily-travel-habits-compare-to-the-us/406840/)

~~~
Accacin
Oh I don't doubt more people commute by car in the US at all.

Your statement was "In Europe you either live on the countryside or use public
transport.", your own sources show that 60% don't use public transport and I
don't know how you can be so sure that the other 40% live in the countryside.
Unless by countryside you mean "live outside of a city"?

------
ionised
Weird.

Passed my test in the UK a couple of weeks ago (I'm 30 years old) it was just
assumed that I would be learning manual. In fact I had everybody I know tell
me to learn manual (even the people that learned automatic) simply because it
means I can drive both with a manual licence.

I'd say most cars in the UK are manuals, far fewer automatics. I don't have
exact numbers to hand, but from googling I'm seeing ~20% of cars on the roads
are automatics.

~~~
emodendroket
Unlike most other countries I'm aware of, in the US you're allowed to drive a
manual car after taking the test in a car with an automatic transmission.

------
titomc
Automatics makes the driver hands free for texting,snapchatting,makeup. A
recipe for accidents. No I don't have data to back this claim.

------
lanestp
I only buy manual transmission cars. The reason is twofold. First it is
dramatically cheaper to fix a manual. The transmission also lasts longer. The
second reason is that it is more fun! Any time I want I can drop a couple
gears and kick out the tail. Even a front wheel drive is more fun as a manual
because it takes skill to accelerate fast.

------
overcast
Finally, I'm one of the three percent!

I bought my first manual transmission car at the end of 2009, a BMW 328.
Learned how to drive manual right then and there in the parking lot next to
the dealer shit. Been having fun ever since :) I will say, the BMW gearbox is
WAAAAAAY easier to learn on then some of those other clunkers I've played with
since.

------
rizowski
Wooo! I am the 3%.

I purchased a 2015 Subaru WRX and it is a huge upgrade from a 1996 Dodge Neon
when it comes to using a manual. It isn't jerky when you shift and has
features to keep you from rolling back on a hill when you press in the clutch.

I learned to drive on a standard, and I feel like I have much more control
over the car with a standard transmission.

------
doener
In Germany more than 80% still buy cars with manual transmissions:
[https://presse.adac.de/meldungen/technik/maenner-fahren-
auto...](https://presse.adac.de/meldungen/technik/maenner-fahren-automatisch-
frauen-mit-hand.html)

~~~
dep_b
In Germany you are even required to drive fast on the Autobahn while taking
your drivers' test I heard. I can't find the hard numbers to back it up but
probably up to 160 or 180Km/H.

This is very different from the sedated "keep your lane", slow speeds and wide
roads everywhere traffic in the US.

~~~
leonhandreke
I got my license in Germany and was never required to go that fast during any
driving lessons or my test. My driving instructor told me to go roughly the
recommended speed of 130km/h to practice some real-world Autobahn driving.

That said, I know of one person who was told to go fast on the Autobahn during
their driving lessons by their instructor. Definitely not part of the official
test though.

~~~
soebbing
The official test does not require you to go fast, it is more important to do
the proper looks when going on/off the Autobahn and overturning other cars on
it.

That being said, my instructor told me to "floor it" once in a driving lessons
as well, just to see how it feels and how the car behaves.

[Edit: Grammar]

------
tomohawk
That explains all the brake lights, then. In a manual, you have a lot more
control and it is much less necessary to put your foot on the brake to merely
slow down a little. When those brake lights fire off, it causes chain reaction
braking.

------
bosdev
The car sales environment makes it particularly hard to buy a manual car these
days. Even for cars which are still made in manual like the BMW 340i and the
Nissan Juke, it is impossible to find a manual version on a dealership lot. I
don't know if it's because they acknowledge they're harder to sell, or because
they don't like people test driving manuals, but either way you will be
ordering your car if you want it as a stick. That generally corresponds to a
6-10 week wait for your car, which doesn't align well with an American public
who want their car today.

------
Shivetya
I guess I am one of those Luddites then, I love manuals and inherited that
from my mother of all people. Fortunately they haven't been displaced very
much with motorcycles and they may be the last bastion of manual
transmissions.

regardless of claims, I am very convinced that you can achieve the best
mileage with a manual transmission and one reason for that is because you can
predict your needs based on what you see and no automatic will do that.

of course with EVs this is all out the window but I am always curious as to
why so many EVs focus on raw power instead of gearing a lower powered motor ?

------
sliken
I was looking for a nice AWD hatchback. Subaru cancelled the WRX and STI
version. Focus RS sadly goes with a manual only.

Seems kind of silly to work so hard on performance/acceleration and then waste
time on shifting.

~~~
bcook
Do any performance-focused vehicles use CVT?

Answer: No.

~~~
toomuchtodo
[http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/why-you-wont-see-
another-...](http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/why-you-wont-see-another-
manual-ferrari-20150916-gjoft8.html) (Sept 2015)

"Ferrari has emphatically ruled out offering a manual gearbox in its next
generation of vehicles, for one simple reason: performance. Speaking at the
Frankfurt motor show this week, stakeholders at Ferrari said the manual
transmission had become obsolete in a performance sense because modern dual-
clutch transmissions were much faster and effective in their shifts."

"We never say no, but today we say no," a spokesman said. "We are very
convinced with our strategy about the automatic gearbox, it's the fastest
gearbox in the market and this is a distinctive component for us. Right now we
are not thinking about a manual because the performance is [less]."

Not a CVT, but a manual has no benefit. Either go CVT for efficiency or geared
automatic for performance.

EDIT: astrodust: Let not split hairs; Formula 1 allowed the introduction of
CVTs in 1993 _and then banned them because they were too good_.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3UpBKXMRto](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3UpBKXMRto)

[http://jalopnik.com/http-youtu-be-x3upbkxmrto-one-that-
goes-...](http://jalopnik.com/http-youtu-be-x3upbkxmrto-one-that-goes-unloved-
a-lot-1464507675)

~~~
astrodust
That's a sequential shifter, which is a different beast than an automatic.

They've had paddle-driven shifting on their cars for over a decade now which
just triggers gear shifts manually. It's not an automatic transmission in the
classic sense, there are still gears. Classic automatic transmission systems
use a fluid mechanism to transmit power which is where a lot of the power loss
comes from.

~~~
sliken
paddle driven cars may not be an automatic transmission in the classic sense.
Nor is it a manual transmission in the classic sense. Maybe clutchless is a
better term

~~~
schwap
It's hard to define 'paddle driven' cars, since of course any automatic
transmission car could have paddles that allow manual shifting.

I assume you're talking about the paddle-shifted transmissions found Ferraris,
Lamborghinis, BMWs etc. in the recent past. These in fact are the opposite of
'clutchless'. They were basically manual transmissions electronically
controlled and with the clutch and shifting actuated by hydraulics.

Nowadays they use some variety of dual-clutch transmission.

~~~
astrodust
Sad to see someone getting beat up on for using the correct term. "Clutchless"
does not refer to a missing clutch internally, but the lack of an operable
clutch _pedal_.

------
rconti
Most of the systems and network engineers I know drive a manual transmission
car. Perhaps it should be an interview question :)

I specifically skipped the BMW I wanted to buy in order to buy a 2016 VW that
had a manual.

"My" first 2 cars were automatics as they were hand-me-downs before I was an
adult. All 5 cars and 2 motorcycles I've purchased have been manuals, and I
don't see that changing.

I'll probably never buy an automatic transmission vehicle in my life. I'll go
straight to electrics.

I simply hate the feeling of driving an automatic, even a paddle shift dual
clutch. Not for me.

------
jwdunne
Very interesting. My Mrs asked me if most in the US drive manual after
watching Gilmore Girls. Now we know!

In the UK, it's quite different. Most I know drive manual. Only 1 swears by
auto. I've only ever driven a manual so it's hard to judge. At this point,
manual is second nature so it's hard to imagine not doing it.

In fact, learning to drive in an auto is considered a fool's game. You are not
allowed to drive a manual if so and since everyone pretty much drives manual,
your options get limited, especially if buying a used car or driving someone
elses.

~~~
mattlondon
I used to 100% drive manuals and it really was second-nature to think about
changing gears - in fact the first few times I drove an automatic it was
"interesting" as more than once I accidentally slammed the brakes on 100% with
my left foot as my brain was on autopilot for where it was used to changing
gears around the roads where I live.

The thought process/autopilot my brain was going through was something like
"ok, get ready to change down a gear, full clutch please left leg <left leg
presses a pedal down>... WHOA! WTF! WFT JUST HAPPENED?! DID I HIT SOMETHING?!"
then the realisation that your left leg just stampted on the brake pedal not
the clutch pedal :-)

I blame the super-wide brake pedals some automatics have! Luckily there were
no one behind me, but it is quite an experience to get 100% brake application
as a driver when you are NOT expecting it! I can only imagine that this
experience will become more common with increasing automation/emergency
braking in cars.

My daily-drive in the UK these days is a hybrid that is a CVT automatic. I
actually really like driving it now around London as its just so so so so much
easier and less stressful in traffic. I still keep a manual 2-seat rear-wheel
drive car around for fun as I love the feeling of actually _driving_ a car,
but the ease of an auto just cannot be beaten. I am a total convert!

~~~
jwdunne
At least you didn't stall!

I am now petrified of using an auto. Takes a long time for my habits to adjust
and I'll be slamming on for ages. Drivers round here like to drive with their
noses up your arse...

------
pn0
Every single car or truck I have ever owned has had standard transmissions.
Until recently. In the last 2 years, I have purchased a car and a truck and
they have automatic transmissions simply because a manual transmission was not
available. Like many (most?) people, I purchase used and had to take "stick
shift" off of my list of requirements because the selection dropped to near
zero. Definitely an end of an era.

Related: Though still available, it's getting harder and harder to find a
pickup with a full-sized bed (8ft).

------
peterjlee
I live in a urban city in the US and when I tried to learn how to drive a
manual I couldn't find a way. Most of my friends can't drive a manual or even
have a car and none of them own a manual. When I contacted a few local driving
schools for manual lessons, they replied they don't have any manuals on their
fleet but they'll teach me if I somehow bring my own. I might just move on and
just settle for a DCT on my next car since knowing how to drive at all will
become a lost art in a few decades.

------
shaydoc
I would like to see the stats for UK and Ireland, I imagine only about 3% are
automatic... The majority of cars are manual transmission here! And we drive
on the left hand side of the road.

------
emodendroket
The worst part about driving a manual car is any place where someone else has
to drive it (like say the mechanic's) they end up putting the seat like 2
inches away from the wheel.

------
eeeeeeeeeeeee
As someone that bought a VW (in the US) and specifically wanted a manual
(after having an automatic previously), this is sad. It was hard to find the
car I wanted, I had to make a road trip of it.

I prefer my manual transmission to the automatic Volkswagen's. I think the DSG
is just not quite ready for primetime. Especially in snow. Having a manual
transmission, even on a car without 4WD, is a huge advantage in snow (the DSG
won't let the car stall out, so it restricts how much you can downshift).

------
PeterStuer
Over here (Belgium) manual transmission (4 forward +1 reverse gear) was the
standard for decades. It still dominates the cheaper car bracket, but the
luxury segment has gone almost 100% automatic. What is left there is optional
manual shifting (by stick or F1 style steer paddles), but always with an
automated clutch. This evolution has also gradually allowed increasing the
number of gears, now not uncommonly 6, 7 or 9 gears forward. Modern automatics
are in practice more fuel efficient

------
westiseast
I got my first automatic here in China, mostly because it would be really hard
to sell an manual transmission car later on.

Honestly, I cannot see the point in a manual anymore. It's a part of the
mechanism of the car that I have no business dealing in and _should_ be
abstracted away. Like the choke in older cars. The idea that I'm somehow a
more inattentive driver now because I don't have to worry about the gear I'm
in is such complete nonsense.

------
reubenswartz
I'm one of the holdouts (but I had to special order the car). It's just more
fun to drive.

Hoping to skip the automatic gearbox and go straight to electric in a few
years.

------
sakopov
I drive a slightly modified 2016 WRX with CVT. I purchased the CVT version
because I'm almost always stuck in a bumper-to-bumper traffic. However, I
regret the decision every day. Every once in a while I throw it in manual and
use paddle shifters just to experience what an awesome and fast car it is
without the horribly slow CVT shifting in the way. It's been a year now and I
can't wait to trade for the manual.

------
zappo2938
I was living San Francisco when I got a job in Las Vegas. I needed to buy a
car to live in Vegas, I never owned a car before then. This is 1998 and I
bought a beautiful late eighties standard transmission Toyota pickup. I
already had my license for a few year but I really learned to drive with a
standard transmission living on a hill in Cole Valley for two weeks. Fun
times.

~~~
ghaff
When I bought a car with a manual transmission quite a few years ago (I also
owned a vehicle with an automatic), for the first few weeks I basically
planned my commute around not having to be in stop and go traffic on a hill
anywhere with the stick. I've said on a number of occasions that I couldn't
imagine learning to drive a stick in SF.

------
penglish1
Just one more reason to get a motorcycle. Or two. Maybe three. Did you know
you can fit several motorcycles in the same space as just one car in your
garage?

Also, I feel compelled to point out that you can get a Porsche, or Lotus or
whatever and feel pretty cool with your francy sports car. Or you can get
_several_ top of the line motorcycles for the same price. Just sayin'

~~~
crims0n
I agree and have come to the same conclusion. I wanted a nice (manual) sports
car here in the states - but for the same price I can get a nice sports bike,
ADV bike, AND cruiser. As much fun as it would be to have a sports car, being
able to walk out to the garage and pick which bike fits my mood for the day
beats it every time. Furthermore, motorcycles are far more engaging,
exhilarating, and challenging than a sports car could ever be.

------
tehabe
For most people it is not what is better, but what are they used to in daily
life. I learned on manual transmission, the care I mostly use has manual
transmission and gear up and down because I'm used to do it.

One driving instructor warned us, not to hit the break with the left foot when
driving automatic. ;-) (of course this never happened to me)

Eventually I don't really care.

~~~
fnj
I drove manual for a long time, but after switching to automatics, I got quite
good at left-foot braking without much trouble. You can get a slight advantage
on reaction time doing it. The trick, besides not instinctively hitting the
brake way too hard, is never to ride the brake pedal. You definitely need to
build up your lifting muscles in your left ankle if you want to hold it poised
one inch above the brake in stop-and-go traffic for absolutely fastest
response time.

------
martin-adams
I found that when I drove in LA (lots of traffic lights), and drove from NY to
SF, having an automatic was really helpful.

I drive a manual every day here in the UK, but when you have to stop/start
(traffic, lights, etc), I wish I had an automatic.

But then, I love driving around normally with a manual. It's not really
something I think about when driving.

------
Marazan
There are so many different types of gearbixes/engines these days and hat
ipresume every conversation on here will be talking about a different flavour
of 'automatic'.

As a rule if the technology comes in a car costing more than my annual salary
I don't think it is worth discussing in terms of 'normal'

------
voycey
Well when you are only getting around 30bhp / L from your engines you don't
really need a manual do you?

~~~
ldev
Yeah, american car engineering is mind blowing. I have a 2008 Lexus IS350 -
3.5 liters V6, naturally aspirated and it produces 306 bhp. Friend has 2008
Ford Mustang - 4 liters V6, and it makes 210 bhp. What the hell.

~~~
kbart
Isn't Lexus a Japanese car company?

~~~
nommm-nommm
Lexus is Toyota's luxury division. So, yes.

------
codingdave
I'm pretty satisfied with the way my Subaru works -- I leave it in automatic
most of the time, but I do have a manual option that I can use when going
up/down hills, in icy conditions, or whenever I want. I'm sure other models
have the same feature. It seems like the best of both worlds.

------
sidcool
In India, it's the opposite. Very few vehicles have automatic transmission,
major reason being mileage.

~~~
GFischer
Here in Uruguay it's also 99% manual, but I suspect it's because it's cheaper.

An equivalent automatic transmission adds one or two thousand dollars to the
car, which is unaffordable to most (for no perceived gain).

We buy lots of Indian-made cars here (mostly Marutis but some Tatas too), the
other cheap cars being Chinese.

------
intrasight
I've not owned a stick in like 10 years. Everyone around me drives SUVs or
hybrids or big sedans - I assume those aren't even available with manual
transmission.

One thing I do miss about the stick is that at stop signs I always did come to
a full stop in order to shift into first gear.

------
rr92
Well, from my point of view this is the main difference between EEUU and
Europe. To understand the difference and the 3% you need to read about
volkswagen scandal. Better or worse, probably in few years there will not be
more cars with manual transmissions on U.S.

------
vondur
Not surprised, if you spend any time in traffic, manual transmissions get to
be a pain after a while. Having said that, I learned to drive a manual and my
first car was manual, in fact it was really bare bones. (no AC, power
steering, power brakes etc...)

------
philoye
Random data point: In Australia, I've noticed consistently, over the past year
or so, that about 25% of used cars are manual transmission.

(Carsales.com.au is the leading used car marketplace in Oz and as of this
comment there are 55k manuals and 171k autos for sale)

------
raldi
I rented an automatic in Greece, and it was the most malfunctioning, poorly-
maintained transmission I've ever used. If that's what Europeans think driving
an automatic is supposed to be like, it's no wonder manuals are so popular
there.

------
CalChris
First car was a Civic stick on San Francisco. I speak fluent stick. My last
stick was a RAV4. I loved sticks but that was a terrible stick. Switched to a
Mercedes C230K and I was instantly a better driver. Now I have a Leaf with a
CVT.

I don't miss sticks at all.

~~~
kozak
Nissan Leaf doesn't have a CVT (despite that it might feel like one). It's an
electric card that doesn't need to switch gears at all.

------
flyinghamster
Driving a manual in the US has one major benefit: it foils carjackings. Every
now and then, someone tries to steal a car only to find he can't drive stick.

Now, though, you basically have three choices if you want a manual: economy
cars, sporty cars, or trucks.

------
wfunction
Would anyone happen to know what the accident rate is for drivers who drive
manual vs. automatic as a whole?

What about among the same drivers who drive both? (This one is to control for
distractions that might be present when driving automatic but not manual.)

------
notadoc
Judging by some of the comments here, you'd expect Tesla to release a
manual...

Really, outside of a sports car with plenty of room to enjoy it, they aren't
convenient. A manual in typical commuter bumper to bumper traffic is
particularly annoying.

------
Glyptodon
I was kind of gung-ho to learn how to drive a manual back in the day, but now
that cars regularly have 6 or 7 forward speeds I have absolutely no desire to
drive a manual transmission again, especially in a city.

------
vladsanchez
I'm one of them. I drive a 2001 Hyundai Elantra GT, with 190k miles in it,
still in the original clutch kit. I refuse to drive anything else, especially
automatic transmission cars. They're BORING!

------
russdill
I love driving a manual, but with the rise of CVT, what's the point?

~~~
sliken
Amusingly subaru simulates gears with their CVT. By default you get 6 "gears",
but in sport you get 8.

~~~
ferongr
And that's completely missing a point of a CVT where you can keep the engine
at a its most efficient speed and vary the transmission ratio to accelerate or
decelerate in response to throttle input.

~~~
kampsduac
But if you drive in the mountains, wouldn't gear simulation in a CVT help to
save brakes while going downhill?

~~~
ferongr
So, when you step off the accelerator on a car with an automatic transmission,
the ECU has to decide whether it will switch to the tallest ratio to let the
car coast and save on gas, or keep the same ratio and engine brake using the
intake vacuum. On a traditional automatic, you either use the paddles to keep
in the required gear, or on older transmissions use the 3 or 2 position on the
column lever.

CVTs have no fixed ratios, and do not need to in order to engine brake. My
preferred control would be a small column-mounted stick with 2 or 3 positions
that would enable automatic engine braking at varying strengths, kinda like
the controls for an electric retarder on big trucks or buses.

------
megablast
Less than 3% of cars sold in the U.S. have manual controls. \- 2036

------
RandomInteger4
I wonder how long it will take to get to this point with self-driving cars
(Automatic-automatic?) vs. manual-automatic vs. manual-manual.

------
legohead
I loved my manual car when I lived in a state with little traffic. Now that
I'm in CA, a manual sounds like a nightmare.

~~~
balls187
I live in Seattle where traffic sucks, and there are hills. I drive a manual.
You get used to it.

------
40something
One of my interview questions is if they prefer manual or automatic
transmission. Most of our rockstars drive manual.

~~~
krschultz
I'm sure this is a joke, but you actually shouldn't ask anyone in an interview
if they own a car or how they intend to get to work.

[http://www.snagajob.com/employers/erc/article/the-
top-3-ille...](http://www.snagajob.com/employers/erc/article/the-
top-3-illegal-interview-questions/)

------
balls187
I want an electric car with a fake manual transmission. Like all those racing
arcade games.

I love my 350 HP 6speed GolfR.

------
cpncrunch
In Canada it is currently $1250 cheaper to buy a manual Ford Focus than one
with automatic transmission.

------
geff82
Manual transmission is not somehow cool, it just shows the inefficiencies of a
regular gas engine more openly: that the engine has to run in a certain small
band of RPM to provide the energy for driving. Automatic transmission covers
the deficiency best - and will be the standard on the electric car future
ahead. In that way, Americans are already used to the future.

~~~
TeMPOraL
I don't get why you're downvoted, it's exactly the case - the very need for
having a gearbox is _a problem_ of ICEs. Electric engines _don 't have gears_
because the RPM/efficiency curve is pretty much flat.

~~~
schwap
Aren't there still benefits to running at lower speeds? Electric motors aren't
magic frictionless devices, higher speeds must still produce increased wear
and heat.

------
daodedickinson
Too bad that when all the vehicles are hackable, political assassination will
be way too easy.

------
savrajsingh
Does that mean my six speed manual car from 2002 is worth more than the KBB
price?

------
quantum_state
I would say a sports car is not a real sports car without stick ...

------
Animats
Well, of course. You need the other hand to hold the cell phone.

~~~
smileysteve
I'd love to see research on this. I know that if I'm not in the highway, cell
phone conversations (or text based applications) receive low priority - such
that, my phone has been thrown to the passenger side when I've needed to shift
or I regularly have to tell people I'm talking to to wait a minute.

~~~
TallGuyShort
Please don't hold your cell phone or use text-based applications while driving
at all, regardless of transmission.

~~~
smileysteve
I must agree! (though we had less knowledge of the dangers it brought in the
mid 2000s.)

------
taphangum
And all of them are owned by rental companies, it seems.

------
sagarm
Auto-playing audio? Are you kidding me?

------
devy
In 10 or 20 years from now, perhaps the news article would read "Fewer than 3%
of cars sold in the U.S. needs manual drive mode."

------
mavhc
Cars with multiple gears, how quaint.

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patrickg_zill
I prefer stick but can't always get it.

Even the cheapest Korean manufacturer can make a 5 or 6 speed manual that is
close to unbreakable.

And you can, in difficult situations at least, shift better than the automatic
- especially if you are shifting a certain way because you can see traffic or
the lack of it, up ahead.

~~~
sebcat
> especially if you are shifting a certain way because you can see traffic or
> the lack of it, up ahead.

Downshifting instead of using brakes is more environmentally friendly as well.
Though you can do this with an automatic too (or semi-automatic I guess). My
mother has a car with paddle shifters which you can use if you want, or you
can just keep it in automatic. Best of both worlds.

Edit: I drive stick, though. It's what I know.

~~~
sliken
Downshifting more environmentally friendly?

Because burning more gas is better than heating up break pads?

Reference?

~~~
wastedhours
Engine braking in most petrol cars is an efficient tactic due to DFCO[0] -
less efficient than coasting in neutral, but you're not as in control of the
car when not in gear, so the combination of both being in control and getting
a "free" slowing effect (especially when judging upcoming traffic, as opposed
to coming to a complete halt) can be better than just mashing the middle
pedal.

[0] Deceleration fuel cut off

~~~
mantas
If you're slowing down to traffic light, it's more efficient than coasting in
neutral. You've to slow down anyway and slowing down with engine braking is
0.0l/km. While coasting still burns some fuel.

In addition to that, some newer cars charge battery when engine braking. Which
is effectively saving fuel later.

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tdkl
Learning to drive on an automatic is like never learning handwriting and going
to typing instead.

~~~
kybernetyk
Sounds pretty OK to me ;)

~~~
tdkl
Until you're in a position to having to drive one. Being helpless because of
technology isn't one of the traits people should look forward to.

~~~
kybernetyk
I was referring to handwriting. :)

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hash-set
It just goes to show that before we worry about self driving cars we have huge
improvements that can be made in driver skill! It's an easy win if only this
country had the will to do it.

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andrewvijay
Disable ad blocker? Fuck you. Don't track me then

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Neliquat
Shopping for a manual now. So few options in awd.

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flexie
This is a combustion engine issue. Electric cars don't have gears.

Did you see the new jaguar EV: [http://www.jaguarusa.com/all-models/i-pace-
concept-car/index...](http://www.jaguarusa.com/all-models/i-pace-concept-
car/index.html)

Or the new Audi EV: [http://www.businessinsider.com/audis-electric-vs-
tesla-2016-...](http://www.businessinsider.com/audis-electric-vs-
tesla-2016-9?utm_content=buffer9e826&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer-
ti/)

~~~
greglindahl
Some electric cars have multiple gears. It's an engineering choice, there's a
tradeoff between low-speed torque and high-speed torque/maximum speed.

------
esturk
Another issue with manual transmission that others have not mentioned is the
annoyance as a passenger. I can understand the joy for the driver but as a
passenger, I always find it quite annoying in older cars. In fact, I would
probably cancel my Lyft/Uber ride if I knew the coming car is a manual.

~~~
TomMarius
Manual transmission, no matter how old, is only annoying if the driver doesn't
know how to drive it. It's less likely in the US, but with European taxi
drivers, it's much less noticeable than an automatic transmission.

~~~
kazinator
Exactly. The ride is completely smooth with a skilled manual transmission
driver, much smoother than with an automatic. The small maneuvers of parking,
in particular, are smoother with the skilled use of a manual transmission:
parallel parking, backing into a spot and adjusting the position, and such.

