
Apple Wants To Make Jailbreaking Worthy Of Jail Time, $2500 Fine - vaksel
http://consumerist.com/5153597/apple-wants-to-make-jailbreaking-worthy-of-jail-time-2500-fine
======
ObieJazz
Apple seems to be getting eviler by the day. It's the same kind of attitude
they're taking with Palm and the Pre—threatening legal action to scare people
away from doing things they really ought to have a right to do. I guess that's
what happens when you're at the top of a market.

~~~
beingfamous
All of this news of Apple becoming the next evil corporation really pushes me
away from buying a Macbook for college in the fall. However, it makes a
Product (red) Dell with Ubuntu look even better...

~~~
unalone
Look, don't buy a computer based on what you think of the company. If you're
serious about getting stuff done with your computer, get the best damn
computer you can, regardless of company reputation, regardless of what other
people think about it.

If you think that you can live with Ubuntu, with all its problems, then get
Ubuntu - but get it because it's cheaper, because it's more tinkerable. Don't
get it because of Apple's dickery. Of course Apple is a dick. They insist on
having complete control over your user experience. As an Apple user, I will
attest that I love it. Some people get a kick out of supermodding their
computer. My cofounder loves Linux for that very reason. I like Apple because
they do everything for me without thinking.

I think this case is over-the-top, but I don't necessarily disagree with
Apple's reasoning. If I made a product that had a built-in application system
designed to my specifications, I'm not sure if I wouldn't be pissed off at the
people who wanted to get around that either. Jail time seems a bit over-the-
top, but if it's in Apple's contract that by buying their product you agree
not to mess with it, and I'm fairly certain that's been the deal since the
iPhone came out, then you might not like that, but _if_ you don't like it, you
don't buy the thing with intent to break the law. You get a different phone,
one that lets you modify and tinker with things. If you get caught, then you'd
better have known that there was a chance of it happening from day one. It's
risktaking: always has been, always will be.

People get into a bunch of arguments about evil and not-evil. It's not about
_evil_. It's about _intent_. Apple's intent has always been to control every
aspect of their product. They insist on controlling hardware - so you can't
get OS X on another company's computer. They insist on controlling software -
so you can't free up your iPhone. Some people disagree with that, but it's
their prerogative as a company, and it's let Apple consistently create the
best products in their respective markets with little debate. If that's evil,
then I guess I'm evil, because I think they have the right and I wish more
companies were that restrictive.

So think about that when you get your computer. Don't worry about all this
bullshit arguing either way. Think about the computer itself.

~~~
jrockway
_If you're serious about getting stuff done with your computer, get the best
damn computer you can, regardless of company reputation, regardless of what
other people think about it._

I'm not sure how this is an argument in favor of Apple. OS X is missing many
modern OS features, like automatic updates for all your software and
programmable window management (a la Xmonad). If you are just going to use
emacs, Firefox, and xterm, using OS X is going to waste a lot of your time
compared to a slightly-tweaked Linux install. (With that in mind, if you use
GNOME or KDE, you are also going to have your time wasted, although at least
everything updates itself in the background, and it's no worse than OS X or
Windows.)

 _Of course Apple is a dick. They insist on having complete control over your
user experience._

Including sending you to _prison_ if you don't do what they tell you. I don't
think you quite understand -- if you don't follow their rules, you lose your
job, your house, your freedom, and your way of life. (This is not really
Apple's fault, since they didn't make the law, but the fact that they are
interested in "taking advantage" of laws like this show that they are truly
evil. Nobody has threatened me with jail over modifying my OpenMoko phone.)

Finally, it's important to keep in mind that Macs are just Dell machines in a
pretty case. Intel makes reference designs, and everyone uses those. Macs are
truly pretty, but that's all -- they are not particularly functional. In my
group of friends, there is about a 50/50 split between Apple laptops and
Thinkpads. Among these people, there is not one broken Thinkpad, but there are
_three_ broken Macs. All the problems are keyboard-related, so they have to
carry around an external keyboard until they have $1500 to buy a new computer.
Apple won't fix them.

Incidentally, I have watched someone accidentally spill a bottle of water onto
his Thinkpad, and the thing still works fine. The water drains through the
little drainage holes that go through the laptop, and it's easy to disassemble
everything so it can dry out properly. Not so with a Mac -- I hope you like
external keyboards.

So anyway -- you are not really depriving yourself of anything if you go for a
Linux box. The software you'll run on it is the same as anything else. The
hardware is identical to what you get in a Mac. The price is probably the
same. In fact, I think you'll find that the increased customizability will
make the Linux box a better deal.

~~~
unalone
_I'm not sure how this is an argument in favor of Apple. OS X is missing many
modern OS features, like automatic updates for all your software and
programmable window management (a la Xmonad)._

Most of my software _does_ automatically update. I'm not entirely certain what
programmable window management is, to be honest, so it doesn't seem entirely
necessary.

 _I don't think you quite understand -- if you don't follow their rules, you
lose your job, your house, your freedom, and your way of life._

As I said in my other response post: I'm not standing by Apple. I'm saying
that I won't go out of my way to vilify them for this. I believe really firmly
in an artist's right to control their creation, and I think that Apple's work
qualifies. Jailbreaking is also removing a lot of profit from the app store
developers. I think that's a damn shame. People are pirating the App Store
applications.

Jail time is pretty severe. But I won't criticize Apple for going after people
who're refusing to play by their rules, because in all honesty, if I was in
their position I don't know if I wouldn't be just as harsh.

 _Finally, it's important to keep in mind that Macs are just Dell machines in
a pretty case. Intel makes reference designs, and everyone uses those. Macs
are truly pretty, but that's all -- they are not particularly functional. In
my group of friends, there is about a 50/50 split between Apple laptops and
Thinkpads. Among these people, there is not one broken Thinkpad, but there are
three broken Macs. All the problems are keyboard-related, so they have to
carry around an external keyboard until they have $1500 to buy a new computer.
Apple won't fix them._

It's an old adage that design isn't how something looks, it's how it works.
Macbooks have far more elegant functionality. This is much contested, so let's
not have yet another debate about this, but the computers' designs are leagues
apart. I'm also a bit biased because the Apple Store has fixed my messed-up
keyboard, and because I've spilled OFTEN on my Mac with no problem.

This is a debate that has a lot of different perspectives. In my college,
three Dell computers have died on my floor alone. No Macs have. There's a
different story in every group.

 _So anyway -- you are not really depriving yourself of anything if you go for
a Linux box. The software you'll run on it is the same as anything else. The
hardware is identical to what you get in a Mac. The price is probably the
same. In fact, I think you'll find that the increased customizability will
make the Linux box a better deal._

I know this'll provoke another rant, so I apologize in advance, but again and
again: if that's how you look at computers, yes. Linux will be better. I don't
look at it that way: I look at built-in experience. I think that customization
is a waste of time. My computer uses the graphite theme and a black
background, no custom icons, and half the software I use is default Mac
software. Out of the box, Mac offers more. That's my perspective, and the two
of us have bitched back and forth about this enough that having this damn
argument just doesn't seem worth the time.

~~~
pavelludiq
You think customization is a waste of time? Ok, you want to get stuff done,
thats reasonable. How about those of us who think that its the killer feater?
I've been disassembling and tinkering with things since i was 4 years old.
List of things i've broken while messing with them as a child: a turntable, 3
tape players, most of my toys. My favorite toy was duck tape and wires,
because at 6 i still haven't learned to solder and that was the way i
connected batteries to motors, lights switches(all taken from broken toys).

This is the type of person i am, so are a lot of HN users. Computers are like
crack for us. Here is a machine that can do everything i imagine, no force can
get me away from my pc, it is my playground. I've broken my Linux install
countless times(before i started using linux, i did the same with Windows) i
mess with everything, hell, im addicted to this.

Why does apple think we are some sort of barbarians with no taste? I get the
feeling that they feel that if they give people more control, they will
somehow shit all over their egos or something.

I mean, i don't want to shit on anybodies ego, but i want to play with stuff.
I'm sure the other Steve understands.

~~~
jrockway
_Why does apple think we are some sort of barbarians with no taste?_

To be fair, most people just want a computer that loads Google and writes Word
documents. Apple serves that market fine, perhaps even better than Windows
does.

But if you are a programmer, OS X and Windows are not good choices unless you
are writing OS X or Windows apps (or you've watched too many Ruby on Rails
screencasts).

~~~
unalone
Bullshit. Apple's got emacs and vim, if you're a hardcore coder. Better yet,
Apple has some incredible development tools. I use Coda, because I work mostly
with PHP, and let me tell you that if you haven't tried Coda before you're
missing out. It is a sheer joy to use.

Every programmer is different. Stop making these arbitrary little boxes and
assuming that how _you_ work is the best and only way.

We Mac users GET this. We don't get anal and piss the rest of you off by
assuming that our way is the only way. PLEASE return the favor, because I HATE
that these _fucking arguments happen every fucking day_ and that there's
really no need, and that it's wasting all our time. I'm fed up. Hacker News is
_much_ better than this.

~~~
jrockway
> Every programmer is different.

Yes, some think that their blub is perfection. It makes me a little sad,
actually.

> I HATE that these fucking arguments happen every fucking day and that
> there's really no need, and that it's wasting all our time.

You don't actually have to reply to every reply you get, you know. If you
think you stated your views in the first thread, there is no need to rehash
them. I ignore replies all the time, for this reason. (Or simply because I
have something else to do. It's a social news site. Who cares?)

------
DenisM
Linkbait.

Apple wants to retain status quo (which is "may or may not be illegal under
DMCA but not decided by court") whereas EFF wants an explicit temporary DMCA
exemption.

------
jacquesm
It's simple: Don't buy an iphone, buy some other phone that does not require
jailbreaking and let them stew. If enough people do it then they'll get the
message and change their game.

~~~
jgfoot
Yes; I think Mark Pilgrim said it best: "I don’t understand this continuing
obsession with buying things that you need to break before they do what you
want." [http://diveintomark.org/archives/2007/10/04/if-wishes-
were-i...](http://diveintomark.org/archives/2007/10/04/if-wishes-were-iphones)

------
pg
Has Apple explicitly asked to make jailbreaking an iPhone a criminal offense?

~~~
quantumhobbit
No. They are just using the anti-circumvention rule from the DMCA. Jail-
breaking an iPhone is no more illegal than ripping a DVD. Jail time comes into
play if you break copyright fro profit.

~~~
jrp
I think for some of those things, it is legal to do yourself, but not legal to
provide a program which does it -- so basically nobody will know enough to do
it.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Millennium_Copyright_Ac...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Millennium_Copyright_Act#Impact_on_research)

[http://lists.mplayerhq.hu/pipermail/mplayer-
users/2003-March...](http://lists.mplayerhq.hu/pipermail/mplayer-
users/2003-March/031760.html)

Can someone comment on this?

------
bk
Microsoft: concrete prison cell with a wooden stool with splinters for you to
sit on.

Apple: glass and steel prison cell with an Aeron chair for you to sit on.

~~~
jrockway
Bad example. It's very easy to install (and write) software on Windows Mobile
phones. Up until a few years ago (with the advent of OpenMoko and Android),
Windows Mobile was the most open mobile phone platform.

~~~
bk
I should have been more clear. My point was intended to be more general than
just mobile apps.

Both MS and Apple have business strategies and practices that strive for lock-
in and monopolization, which is their prerogative, but it clearly deprives
their users of many freedoms to use their hardware/software.

Apple makes it look and feel more comfortable, but it's fundamentally the same
philosophy. Differences between the two originate from Apple primarily selling
hardware and MS software.

