

Wisconsin Sucks for Startups - snagwag12

It is damn near impossible to start a startup outside a 'startup hub', but I'm going to attempt the impossible this summer. Around here, mentioning to friends that I'm going to do a startup usually entails a detailed description of a new landscaping business. Software and technology are completely oblivious in the minds of my fellow Wisconinites. Software development and website design lays in the hands of the few professional web firms at a very steep price. I was quoted a total of $30,000 to create the type of website I want. It doesn't include any innovative software programming. The site is by no means a simple task, but in no way is it too difficult for an experienced firm.<p>My question to you guys is whether or not it is worth it. I've read all the blogs and am constantly up to date on YC news. The trends suggest that there is a high demand for it, but the risk is quite significant. I have no co-founder and I expect to graduate college by next May. I'm just a kid chasing clouds. Is the risk worth the reward??
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9oliYQjP
Have you fully quantified the risk and the reward? If not, that's your first
priority. Here is some food for thought:

1\. If you farm out your website, there is a significant risk that you will
spend some or all of the $30K and it will not come out the way you want or
even be useable. Ensure you go with a reputable firm with a portfolio of sites
that you can actually check out yourself. This is not the time to farm out an
idea to a freelance programmer no matter how good s/he is. Just trust me on
this (I was once of those freelance programmers!).

2\. If things turn out not so bleak from having outsourced the work, chances
are that it will be over budget and late. So ensure you have contingency plans
(e.g., maybe it will take 1 year instead of 4 months, and $60K instead of $30K
to get done).

3\. If you aren't in a startup hub, and you aren't in a program like startup
school, then your support system is going to be essentially non-existent. This
is a very very bad thing. I tried to start a business right out of school in
such a situation (and with the tech economy in the gutter) and let me tell you
it was very difficult. I got a salaried job for a few years to re-group and am
back on my own two feet. You will want to seek out lots of mentors (not
online, I mean people you can phone up, have meals with to chat, etc.) and do
lots of networking. And even then it might not be enough. One of the great
things about being in a place where there's lots of business going on is that
you can't go very far without randomly bumping into folks that you might be
able to help. For instance, I did a presentation last Friday and afterward two
great things happened:

i) A gentleman introduced himself as somebody who worked for the investment
arm of the biggest bank in Canada and asked me if I'd be interested in
partnering on a project with them. Just right out of the blue. I didn't have
to do anything and in fact wasn't even shopping my company around. I was just
there to present the results of a project we did for a client.

ii) One of the directors on the board of my client company spoke about a PR
campaign that he was initiating and I soon realized that another company that
I've worked with would be an amazing fit for him to partner with. Afterwards,
I approached him, told him about that company, we exchanged cards and he asked
me to email him with the details.

Basically, this sort of thing is bound to happen a lot less frequently in
smaller communities (in both overall population and in terms of industry
size). You would be surprised how much businesses rely on luck. Luck really is
the intersection where preparedness meets opportunity. If you're in a big city
that has a lot of folks doing what you're doing, then a lot of times
opportunities just randomly present themselves like they did last Friday for
me (and my friends at that other company). It's just statistics.

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enra
Professional web firms' prices are high everywhere. Since you're new to
website business(?) they could even try to shut you off by setting the price
even higher. That way they wouldn't need to actually implement your custom
build site. And if you would take the offer they would atleast get some nice
profits.

I work in this business as a employee of a professional web firm and a
freelancer. I have come across a lot of clients that think they know what they
want but actually don't. You should know that when you want something custom
build, its going to cost you, by the hour and more.

1\. Write clear specs. If you know software development you should know how to
write clear specs. Try to drop features that are not important. There is a
lots of stuff that could go wrong, besides the site, so could it work with
less features?

2\. Freelance designers are actually good. Find one that you like and provide
the layout for the web firm, so the firm will only do the technical side and
you will probably save some bucks.

3\. Do as much as you can by yourself. Draw the basic structure of a site in
powerpoint/gimp or whatever. Just some boxes that show eg. where is
navigation, header, news, some featured products etc. Draw all the different
pages and try to write or draw how the site should work.

4\. You don't need to use a Wisconsian web firm. It's not like there is lots
of shipping involved. If you want to discuss the deal in person, a cost of few
airline tickets probably isn't too much if you can get better deal.

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plinkplonk
Is there a reason you aren't buiding the web site yourself? If you are not a
developer what is the value you bring to the proposed startup? ( I am NOT
being sarcastic. This is an honest question)

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projectileboy
Given that you're about to be freshly-minted college grad, it seems to me the
worst thing that can happen is that one year from now you'll have a little
credit card debt, with a year's experience worth ten times that which you'd
get at American Conglomerated Megacorp.

I assume you're in Madison. If so, there are good hackers to be found (Raven
Software, for one). Connect with them, if only for moral support.

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maxharris
I live in Madison, and I did a startup here (with two co-founders) back in
'99. I ended up paying ~$20k (my share of the debt, with interest) on an idea
that went nowhere (and we developed our own software - it would have been
much, much more expensive if we tried to pay someone else to do it).

So don't pay to do it! Your idea is most likely not right anyway. Do you
really want to erase $30k to make it obvious?

If you really think you have a great idea, do this as a summer project (learn
to program if you need to). Just don't borrow or spend much money on it. If
people might eventually pay to use your thing, it won't matter that your
implementation is rough at first.

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shellab
Hey, I'm the organizer of the Madison Php group. We should get together to
talk about your project, I might be able to hook you up with some developers.
<http://php.meetup.com/125>

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snagwag12
whats your email address?

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johnm
Bah! Of course you an start up a web startup anywhere.

The issues comes with whether or not you _need_ any of the advantages that
come with being in/near one of the hubs that typically require in-person
access such as 'smart money' investors, offices where lots of localized talent
can work together, etc.

As to your website development consternation... why aren't you building the
first versions of it yourself?

In terms of your schooling... is there some reason why you cannot start
working on this yourself until you graduate and then go full bore if it still
makes sense?

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rman666
$30K is too much. It will be too painful a lesson if does not pan out. There
are less expensive options. I suggest you contact some of the people involved
in setting up BarCamp Milwaukee 1 & 3, Web414, and maybe Silicon Pastures.
(Google them). There is not a lot of support for entrepreneurs in Wisconsin.
The city and state will tell you there is, but that's a lot of talk. The best
options for support (emotional, ideas, financial, etc.) come from grass roots
sources, at least here.

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snagwag12
Thanks for the recommendations. I'll be sure to check them out.

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tstegart
I disagree that that Wisconsin is a horrible place for start-ups. Madison is
pretty big on entrepreneurship. If you go to school there, check out the
entrepreneurship association at the business school. The faculty is also
amazing, and they're happy to chat with you even if you're not a business
student. I think if you're not finding support, you're not looking in the
right place.

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coffeecoffee
I'm a programmer in Madison and would be willing to talk to you. email address
is listed on my profile.

This website might be of interest if you haven't seen it:
<http://www.ocr.wisc.edu/entrep/>

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mynameishere
_I was quoted a total of $30,000 to create the type of website I want._

That's odd----all the websites I've owned costs zero. Oh, right, I made them
myself.

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johnm
Well, to play devil's advocate (since I gave the same advice :-)...

No, those sites still cost you in terms of your time both directly and in
terms of opportunity cost.

Particularly in startups, one must always be asking: WITMVTICBDRN. :-)

~~~
snagwag12
Thanks to everyone for their advice!! The reason I'm not designing it myself
is because I'm not a CS major. I am majoring in marketing with a minor in
economics. My job in this whole mess is to market, advertise, organize, and
implement. If I could just get the technical stuff worked out (even at a
bloated price), I think it'd be worth it. My mindset is... what's the worst
that could happen? If I blow it, I'll have one hell of a story to tell at job
interviews.

~~~
johnm
What does being a CS major (or not) have to do with creating a web site?
That's a false dichotomy.

More importantly, given that you're a marketing+economics person and want to
be an entrepreneur, you should want to learn how to build at least the first
few versions of your site yourself. Otherwise you'll never deeply understand
how hard/easy it really is, won't have the ability to tweak things for
yourself in the future, etc. so as to be able to effectively and quickly adapt
to the realities of your market. No offense but that is precisely the job that
you're professing to take on as a founder of your first, small startup.

