

Charts of alcohol consumption, obesity, and physical activity in Europe - Libertatea
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/12/04/which-europeans-are-fattest-laziest-and-drink-most-in-charts/?tid=socialss

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ajays
There is a flaw in the obesity chart. If you will note, the highest obesity
countries are actually based on measurements; the rest of them as self-
reported. If you ask a person (especially a man) if they're obese, quite a few
will say "no"[1]. Mixing different measurement techniques is a no-no, and
makes for flawed conclusions.

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority>

~~~
dkuebric
I interpreted this as the country self-reporting, not the individuals.

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rizzom5000
As an American I found the update quite interesting. Americans have a 35.9%
obesity rate versus 28.5% for the most obese European country.

I'd like to understand why that is, but would guess that the US obsession with
cars, parking lots and suburbs is one reason. Another might be related to the
fact that Americans tend to, on average, do more poorly, on standardized
education tests, which could imply that we have more people here who are ill
equipped to understand how things like nutrition, calories and physiology
work.

~~~
rayiner
There are a lot of demographic factors in play too. The US has a much higher
proportion of blacks and Hispanics than any European country. These groups are
51% and 21% more likely than whites to be categorized as obese using the usual
methods. The US also has a far higher percentage of people livif in rural and
suburban areas. In my own experience, my equillibrium weight when I was living
in the suburbs of virginia was notably higher than when I was living in New
York or Chicago.

The same is true for educational metrics, by the way. The so-called
standardized testing gap between the US and European countries almost
disappears when you adjust for demographics.

~~~
msh
Could those groups higher (if they are higher, I don't know) obesity be
attributed to poverty?

In general, poor Americans, are way worse off than poor people in most EU
countries.

~~~
notdrunkatall
Ever visited a poor country? There aren't many obese people in poor countries
for one very obvious reason.

~~~
msh
Povertry in first world countries are different from povertry in, for example,
africa. There are poor people in europe and the US, they are not poor in the
sense that a african can be poor but that is not the same as they are not poor
and that their behavior are not influenced by their poverty.

~~~
notdrunkatall
Let's not conflate the issue. If poverty was a contributing factor for
obesity, then poor people worldwide would show higher rates of poverty. People
don't get fat because they are poor, they get fat because they don't care that
they're getting fat. If anything, being poor would be a disincentive for
obesity - why spend money on something that you don't have to when money's in
short supply? By basic logic, the poorer you are, the less obese you should
tend to be. Notwithstanding the occasional actual medical condition which
leads to obesity, being obese is a conscious, cultural decision, and blaming
it on poverty seems ridiculous.

~~~
msh
In first world countries there is a link between obesity and poverty. In
general if you are poor you a re more likely to be fat. For example see
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14684391>

You also seem to imply that it's cheaper not to be fat, in many first world
countries the unhealthy food seem to be the cheapest!

~~~
notdrunkatall
I know that there is a link between obesity and poverty, but correlation does
not necessarily imply causation, and in this case, anyone who buys and cooks
their own food will immediately recognize the causation claim to be
ridiculous.

The unhealthy food being the cheapest food argument is bunkum - just go to
reddit.com/r/budgetfood and try to tell them that processed food is cheaper.
There is nothing cheaper than chicken thighs, rice, beans, noodles, and
various veggies. Every week, I make a crock-pot of something tasty and healthy
from scratch. This week, I made a wonderful soup with fresh carrots, potatoes,
celery, onions, and pork loin. The total cost was about $15, and I got 7 big
portions. Substitute something less expensive than pork loin, and it's even
cheaper. Last week, I made a huge pot of spaghetti sauce, complete with
italian sausage, fresh mushrooms, onions, garlic, and a few extra cans of
whole tomatoes for about $10, and I wasn't even really trying to do that one
cheaply. I got about ten portions out of that one. The week before, I made a
quiche type-thing with a dozen eggs, some breakfast sausage, a bag of
hashbrown potatoes, onions, tomatoes, and a bag of cheese. Total cost: about
$10. Not the healthiest thing, but better than processed junk, and again,
fills you up quite nicely 7-8 times. I could go on, but you get the picture,
I'm sure, and this is just with a crock pot - if I had a functional kitchen,
my cooking options would expand considerably.

People who eat unhealthy food don't eat it because it's cheaper than healthy
food, they eat it because they don't want to cook.

But if you really want to know why poor people tend to be obese, watch what
they drink: sugar. All day, every day, it's sugary drinks, from kool-aid to
sweet tea to sodas - I don't know why, but for some reason poor people tend to
drink a lot of sugary trash.

Which, again, is more expensive than the healthier option: water.

Leftist apologists like to trot out the 'healthy food is more expensive'
argument because suggesting that poor people are obese because of their
lifestyle decisions rather than their supposed status as victims of the system
runs contrary to the left's general line of bullshit, which is that if there
is a problem, it stems from systemic failure, and that a government policy
should be implemented to alleviate that issue. Of course, not all problems can
be fixed with government programs, this being one of them. People are not
obese because they are victims, they are obese because they value stuffing
their face with unhealthy food more than they value being fit. It really is
that simple, and unfortunately, that is a social problem that no government
policy can fix.

~~~
msh
My original argument was that there was a causality between poverty and
obesity which I thought you argued against but I am glad that we agree.

The underlying reasons for this link I don't think we will agree on.

~~~
notdrunkatall
I think you may be a little confused about the difference between causation
and correlation. There is a correlation between obesity and poverty, but
whether poverty is a cause of obesity or not is far from certain, and it is my
stance that it is not a cause at all - and especially not because 'processed
foods are cheaper than healthy foods.' Anyone who believes that has not spent
nearly enough time in grocery stores, and anyone who believes that poor people
are fat primarily because of an inability to afford healthy foods has not
spent enough time around poor people.

~~~
msh
No I am not confused. If you read my original post I only talk about
correlation, not cause. I think you do the argument far to black and white but
that was not what was my point.

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Hawkee
What I find most striking is that most European countries have a bigger
alcohol problem than America. I might not have guessed that right away. I
wonder if it's mainly due to the stronger Christian influence in America.

~~~
hristov
Not really Christian, but puritan. Alchohol is actually a big part of
Christianity. It was only the Puritans that were against it. That is probably
why the Puritans were kicked off to America.

But I suppose alchohol is just treated differently in Europe. It is considered
almost like food. A beer or wine is part of your dinner, it is not something
that you only drink on a special occasion or just to get drunk.

~~~
DanBC
The UK has a severe problem with alcohol.

There are a variety of drinking cultures. There's the well known youth culture
of daily drinking, and drinking to excess at weekends. This is drinking to get
drunk.

This problem drinking is encouraged by 'VDEs' (Vertical Drinking
Establishments) which use tactics to get people drinking more. There is a lack
of seating and tables. That fits more people in, but also you're always
holding your drink. This makes you drink faster. Music is loud, so you're not
talking as much, which also makes you drink more.

But there's the other less known problem drinking among adult professionals
who drink a couple of glasses of wine every night.

([https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Units_of_alcohol_cha...](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Units_of_alcohol_chart.svg))

One 200 ml glass of wine at 11% is 2.2 units. 5 of those is 11 units, which is
close to sensible limits of women. 10 of those is 22 units, which is over
sensible limits for women, and close to sensible limits for men.

This isn't alcohol with a meal, and it's not traditional binge drinking, but
it's linked to the rise in younger people with cirrhosis.

~~~
gordaco
(Full disclosure: I'm a teetotaler)

Everything you described also applies to Spain. Here, it's usual to have a
beer while eating (wine is less common for young people); but, usually,
"drinking to get drunk" is the norm in weekends and evenings. Many people
actually do it on Thursdays, even if they still have to work or have classes
the following day.

Here, most people wouldn't call it a problem.

