
The Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Tesla Model S P85D Road Trip - woobar
http://blog.caranddriver.com/alexander-and-the-terrible-horrible-no-good-very-bad-tesla-model-s-p85d-road-trip/
======
jblow
As recently as four years ago, the rhetoric was "there's no infrastructure for
electric cars, building one is totally infeasible, therefore elextric cars
will never work."

Now the rhetoric is "waaah, the charging stations are kind of inconvenient."

Anyone who writes this kind of article without looking at dsituation/dt is
being dumb.

~~~
MBCook
Did you read the same article I did? His complaints didn't seem to be
"charging is inconvenient" as much as "the navigation/trip optimization system
caused me drive an extra 5 hours and make 4 extra stops that were totally
unnecessary".

~~~
bigdubs
Pretty sure "extra time" falls under the "charging stations are not
convenient" header.

~~~
soylentcola
I'd imagine that more infrastructure (in the form of more charging stations)
would make route planning and navigation a much less painful affair. If there
was a charger in every town over (x) population, you wouldn't need to take
those much longer routes or deal with drastic detours and backtracking if the
range needs to be recalculated due to changing circumstances (air conditioning
use, ambient temp, driving speed, etc.)

------
furyg3
> Of course the Model S can be road-tripped. Whether it can be accomplished
> with the sort of ease we assume buyers of a $140,000 luxury sedan expect,
> well, that depends on your planning.

On the other hand he paid $0 for energy, which would be very different had he
brought along a comparable gasoline-powered car (Audi RS6?).

In my experience taking long road trips in expensive cars is a fools errand,
electric or not. Expensive cars are either fast, heavy, or both, and get
horrible milage. Sure, an Audi RS6 would have had fewer stops which also would
have been quicker, but you'd be there in the same amount of time at a quarter
of the cost in a Miata, which would have been a lot of fun at the race track,
too.

~~~
cookiecaper
This is a good point, but you also have to assume that people who drive cars
that cost more than a modest house are probably not overly concerned about the
cost of gasoline. Even if it were a car attainable by normal middle-class
drivers, I believe most people would rather be confident that they can reach
their destination safely than fret over a hundred bucks of gasoline (and a tow
costs at least $75).

Maybe the moral of the story is that all Tesla owners doing long-range driving
should invest in a AAA membership for the inevitable occasion when the battery
jumps down to -22% before reaching the next charging station.

~~~
greglindahl
It's likely that no Tesla owners have AAA, because the car comes with roadside
service, including towing.

I know people on HN love to discuss things they aren't personally familiar
with, but this is really getting out of hand!

~~~
cookiecaper
It was a quip. Relax.

It doesn't really matter if they get included roadside service or not, since
they'll still have to sit around, wait for a tow truck to show up and rescue
them from the middle of nowhere, ride in the truck's cab or possibly have to
get a separate taxi to wherever the car is being towed, and wait to get
charged. This has to happen whether one uses Tesla, AAA, or any other entity
(including themselves) to coordinate the tow. It doesn't materially change the
argument.

------
stillbourne
The title seems to be a little overboard considering the actual content of the
article. It didn't seem that vehemently bad.

~~~
agscala
The title seems to be a play on the title of a book "Alexander and the
Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Day"

~~~
atonse
Is that a well known book? Because I had the same impression. Since I'm not
familiar with the book, I thought their headline was way too much link bait.

~~~
dragonwriter
> Is that a well known book?

That, and, over the years, an HBO animated special, a musical stage
production, a non-musical stage production, and, most recently, a box-office
success as a movie last year. The title has been a fairly frequent pop culture
reference with the "Alexander" at the beginning and the "day" at the end
replaced with other things, e.g, on the Daily Show, etc.

~~~
atonse
Ahh I had no idea, thanks.

------
api
Nothing surprising here. People don't buy Teslas because they want the same
thing as those who buy an expensive gas-powered luxury car. They buy them
because they want to be early adopters of cool new stuff. If I bought one I
would not _expect_ the ease of road tripping afforded by gas -- at least not
today and not for a while -- and thus would not be disappointed for not
getting what I never expected to get.

The review seemed gratuitously negative. Fact is that almost everyone in the
traditional car industry wants Tesla to fail. I know some folks "back home"
who are into cars, and when they talk about electrics it's like mockery mixed
with a tinge of dread.

If you're a CS/software person, imagine if a new computer came out that is far
superior to existing computers but has almost nothing in common. The way you
program it is alien to anything you're accustomed to. That's the situation car
people will find themselves in if things go electric... not to mention the
waves upon waves upon waves of bankruptcies as entire swaths of the economy
find themselves obsolete. Electric vehicles are armageddon to what probably
accounts for a double-digit fraction of our economy.

~~~
MBCook
> The review seemed gratuitously negative.

I disagree. I think Teslas are interesting, and I never tend to road trip so
it's an edge use case for me.

But the descriptions of the navigation system are just flat out baffling.
That's a horrible fault in a car that can't be easily/quickly charged at tens
of thousands of gas stations.

A navigation system should never have you drive FURTHER BACK to the PLACE YOU
CAME FROM rather than the SHORTER distance to the NEXT supercharger. That's
insane.

And having him get off the highway to stop at a supercharger where he needed
"0 minutes" of charging? Why wasn't that cut from the route?

I understand him losing mileage to the A/C, but it's a connected car. If it
knows where it is, where you're going, and can access it weather it should be
able to predict you'll probably end up using the A/C and adjust the expected
range accordingly. That should't have been a surprise either.

At the end of the article he said he could do the trip in about 12 hours if he
planned by hand with 3 stops instead of 6-8 stops and 17 hours if he let the
Tesla software plan it. That's a disaster.

This sounds like one of those cases where bad software ruins (or significantly
detracts from) an experience that shouldn't otherwise be that bad.

This article is an indictment of the navigation system.

I'll also say it sounds odd that you can set the car up to control the heat
and sunroof and such with the phone app _when the car is driving_. If it's
moving, why allow that? If you're driving or in the car you already have
access to the controls. Sounds ripe for abuse/pranks (as happened in the
article).

~~~
mikeash
"This article is an indictment of the navigation system."

Yep, for sure. But note that that's _all_ it is. It's not an indictment of
Tesla overall, or the Model S's ability to road trip. The trip planner does
need some serious work. But if you ignore it, road trips can be a joy.

As far as remote access while the car is driving, why _not_ allow it? That
means that, for example, somebody in the back seat can adjust the controls
using their phone instead of bothering the driver to do it for them. It's only
ripe for abuse if you give your account credentials to someone you shouldn't
trust. And why would you do that? It's pretty much on the same level as giving
your car keys to your coworkers and then complaining when they prank you by
moving your car to a different parking lot behind your back. Don't give them
your keys!

~~~
MBCook
> It's only ripe for abuse if you give your account credentials to someone you
> shouldn't trust.

That assumes perfect security. I'm more worried about someone external hacking
in to the Tesla site via a security vulnerability (or even just
username/password dump from another site) to do such things to random cars
than little Billy in the back seat.

~~~
mikeash
Saying "don't allow remote control of this stuff while driving" _also_ assumes
perfect security.

We can discuss the plusses and minuses of various intentional access points,
or we can discuss security. But they're different topics.

------
sqrt_minus_1
What's security like at Tesla Supercharger stations? Some of the pictures make
it seem like they're a bit isolated and unpopulated. Needing to wait for half
an hour or whatever with your car plugged in (non-operable) would seem to make
one a possible crime target. Plus, it'd be a safe assumption that you have
money, given what you're driving around in.

~~~
greglindahl
I've never been the only car charging at a supercharger, and I see lots of
women traveling solo, even when I'm there late in the evening. Tesla's webpage
has this to say:

"Stations are strategically placed to minimize stops during long distance
travel and are conveniently located near restaurants, shopping centers, and
WiFi hot spots."

[http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger](http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger)

From the sounds of it, this answer won't make you happy, but that's fine:
Tesla is at market share of << 1%.

~~~
sqrt_minus_1
I don't have feelings one way or the other about the answer, and don't
appreciate being told how I should feel. In Atlanta, the only two
Superchargers I'm aware of (also the only two on the map) are at the Tesla
dealer and at a large work/live/play location (Atlantic Station). Neither is
at all convenient if you're driving through the area. I get that things are
probably great in California, but from what I can see from the article and
around town things are different in the Midwest and on the east coast.

Edit: and what the hell are you trying to imply with "women traveling solo"?

------
sologoub
One thing I don't understand is the requirement to use superchargers. From
what I can tell, paid charging stations are much more prolific and while not
offering the same convenience, will keep you from traveling via a flatbed...

~~~
tlb
Paid charging stations are common, but they are generally 6 or 10 kW charge
rate, compared to a supercharger's 80 kW, so they're an overnight proposition.

------
rollthehard6
So many of these complaints seem to focus on edge cases, what proportion of
car journeys would really trigger 'range anxiety'? Even in the US I imagine
such long trips are the exception for the majority of car owners.

~~~
greglindahl
In the US, the overwhelming majority of long trips have a lot better
supercharger coverage than this particular one.

~~~
rpcope1
I'm not so sure this is actually the case. If you look at the supercharger
map:

[http://www.teslamotors.com/findus#/bounds/49.38,-66.94,25.82...](http://www.teslamotors.com/findus#/bounds/49.38,-66.94,25.82,-124.39,d?search=supercharger&name=us)

you'll notice major corridors like I-64 from Lexington to St. Louis have no
intermediate chargers, and from St. Louis to Kansas City on I-70 is similarly
devoid. It would look like if you don't live on the north east coast or out in
California, you'd be in real trouble. The chargers probably don't have to have
the same ubiquity as gas stations, but having 400-500 miles of _interstate_
(god forbid you need to go somewhere like Ithaca, NY where no interstates run)
without any way to refuel the vehicle still would certainly make me nervous
driving it cross country.

~~~
mikeash
From the St. Louis supercharger to the one in Kansas City is 213 miles. No
problem in an 85kWh Tesla. Lexington to St. Louis is not doable on
superchargers, and you'd either have to go by way of Indianapolis, or find a
friendly CHAdeMO charger in between.

Ithaca would depend on where you're coming from and where you're going. It's
well within range of the supercharger at Paramus, NY or Syracuse. Coming from
Pittsburg you'd have to detour through Buffalo.

~~~
rpcope1
I guess it just goes to show that Tesla (or whoever ends up betting the farm
on electric cars) still have a lot of way to go before we see something
approaching critical mass. All of the chargers are placed OK assuming you
don't leave the interstate, but I think we're going to need to see some
serious infrastructure upgrades before electric cars become totally viable
alternatives (for some of us that often go cross country, anyways).

~~~
mikeash
I think you're right. It will never be a 100% thing (nothing is, gas cars
included) but it needs to get a bit farther before "everyone" can use them.

However, the infrastructure is not _that_ tough to build out. At the start of
2014 there were 50 superchargers in North American. Today there are 217.
That's one company, funding them with the profits from selling cars. Give it
another couple of years and the network should be nearly ubiquitous.

------
josinalvo
I might be wrong, but it seems silly to try to get a lot of mileage out of an
purely electric vehicle.

I mean... Most trips (probably over 90% of the distance ran) are very short,
for city people. It seems that you could get pretty much all the enviromnental
benefit, and nearly all the savings, using a smaller battery pack. And
authonomy would come from an ICE to rechange the pack

So, maybe the volt (or at least the idea behind it) is more resonable than
tesla?

~~~
mikeash
The Volt itself doesn't really compare. Only four seats compared to 5+2 in the
Tesla, and terrible cargo space. I loved the idea of the Volt but when I
actually thought about getting one, it was just not practical for me.

How about the idea of a plug-in hybrid, but done better? Maybe. But you're
talking about two separate drivetrains, which is going to inherently hurt
things like cargo space.

There's nothing silly about road tripping in a Tesla. The charging
infrastructure is great and road trips are smooth. The author just didn't do
his very well.

~~~
malyk
I believe the 2016 volt will be a 5 seater.

I have a '14 and the storage space seems fine to me. No kids though. I did put
14 large bags of mulch in the back once...

The Volt also does a really great job with range vs. the driving habits of
it's owners. According to Chevy[1], 80% of volt trips don't use any gas. Could
be some confirmation bias there, but my personal rate is somewhere in the 70%
of trips don't us gas.

[1] [http://www.cheatsheet.com/automobiles/2016-chevy-volt-may-
be...](http://www.cheatsheet.com/automobiles/2016-chevy-volt-may-be-the-total-
green-car-package-at-27k.html/?a=viewall)

~~~
mikeash
Individual needs will, of course, vary. But if you need more space, the Tesla
will give it to you. The Volt's trunk volume is only about 10ft^3, whereas the
Tesla has 26ft^3 in the trunk _and_ another 5 or so in the front.

I'm leaving on a small road trip tomorrow, taking four adults, two children,
and luggage for an overnight stay. Total driving will be about 350 miles. All
electric, obviously. I should only need one charging stop, at a supercharger,
but may take advantage of public chargers in garages and such while I'm
parked, just for convenience.

Obviously a lot of that difference is just because the cars are different in
general, and not the drivetrains specifically. But the Volt does sacrifice a
lot of volume because of the need to support two entire drivetrains at once.

------
greglindahl
It's interesting to compare the single data point in this article to a more
global measure: [1]

"Tesla Motors Inc. drivers were more likely than Porsche owners -- or anyone
else -- to say they’d buy their cars again in this year’s edition of the
closely-watched Consumer Reports buyer survey.

"Tesla’s Model S luxury electric sedan topped the U.S. survey a second year in
a row, scoring 98 out of a possible 100. The No. 2 brand, Porsche, scored an
average of 87 out of 100 across its model lines."

1:
[http://www.autonews.com/article/20141203/RETAIL03/141209918/...](http://www.autonews.com/article/20141203/RETAIL03/141209918/tesla-
model-s-beats-out-porsche-in-owner-satisfaction-survey)

~~~
mikeash
Yes, and Tesla owners forums like Tesla Motors Club are full of stories about
road trips which fall into one of two categories. Either they say "Taking the
Tesla was awesome and I never want to deal with a gas car on a road trip
again" or they say "I had to take the gas car because I was going through one
of the few remaining supercharger deserts and it was awful and I hope I never
have to do that again."

Road tripping a Tesla does require a bit more forethought. You can't depend on
the trip planner at this point and get good results. That is a serious flaw
and I hope Tesla improves their trip planner soon, because it can be terribly
stupid. But if you can apply that extra forethought and you're taking a trip
within the charging network, it's a fantastic road trip vehicle.

------
11thEarlOfMar
The point of this post is simply to (anectodally) measure the usefulness of
the Tesla as a road trip vehicle in July, 2015. One year from now, the
experience will be different, and likely different enough to move a percentage
of prospective owners from waiting to buying.

------
sunstone
I doubt Car and Drive gets a lot of electric car advertising.

------
mattbeckman
Perhaps he should do it again once the planned superchargers for 2015 are in
play. From the perspective of a non-owner who doesn't live near Ohio/Virginia,
it appears to me that there are a lot more scheduled for install before the
end of this year:
[http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger](http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger)

------
qdog
This was more about the pains of learning driving habits for a Tesla, and also
building confidence in the distance one can go in a Tesla. Gas-powered cars
require little such planning, as there are many gas stations, so a lead-foot
isn't a big deal.

He noted at the end that he thinks he could get the same road trip down in a
pretty reasonable time.

------
paulsutter
I'm a huge Tesla fan but I have to admit that the Tesla doesn't seem great for
such a road trip. 15 hours instead of 9 is a big deal. Of course most Tesla
owners keep a gasoline car too. So everyone already knew that.

~~~
dokument
I'm a huge kayak fan but I have to admit that they don't seem great for
transatlantic voyages.

What the article talks about is 100% expected due to the target market of the
Tesla and the current state (still building infrastructure) of the charging
stations.

~~~
mikeash
Actually it's not expected, as evidenced by the fact that kayak^WTesla owners
routinely take transatlantic^Wcross country voyages right now with no fuss and
a great deal of enjoyment.

There are some destinations which are inconvenient right now, but most road
trips can be done easily. Much of the trouble the author had was avoidable
with a bit more forethought.

------
rickdale
Everything is impressive about Tesla. I am sure it will get better in the
future, but I would go crazy having to wait 40+ minutes for my car to charge
during a road trip.

~~~
mixmastamyk
On an eight hour trip that gives you time to eat.

------
anon4
Interesting... would it be possible to charge from the outlet at regular gas
stations? Assuming you carry an electricity meter to be able to pay for the
energy you take. Alternatively, what about a small generator that you fill
with gas in the event you need to top up and there's only a gas station
nearby?

~~~
mayoff
There's already a standard EV charging port, called J1772, and the Tesla Model
S comes with a J1772 adapter.

A Tesla Supercharger has a maximum output of 100 kW (400V, 250A).

J1772 level 2 has a maximum output of 19.2 kW (240V, 80A) but I believe most
don't put out the maximum amps.

If you have an EV with a small battery and you're trying to get around town, a
J1772 stop might be useful. For a Tesla on a long distance trip, a J1772 stop
won't be worthwhile on its own unless you're desperate. (If you're stopping
anyway for some other reason, you might as well plug in if it's convenient.)

------
andyl
Former GM employee here: Michigan's Big3 and their Media partners hate change.
And change is coming: electrification, self-driving car-as-service, direct
sales, diminishing per-capita car miles. Tighten your seat-belts Big3.

