
Preorder your very own cold fusion reactor - nefarioustim
http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/preorder-your-very-own-fusion-reactor
======
fchollet
If Rossi had a device that actually worked as advertised, the first thing he
would do would be to set up multiple peer-reviewed demonstrations that would
prove his claims in an undebatable way. As soon as incontrovertible evidence
was provided, Rossi would become a media superstar, make history, and receive
billions in pre-orders from all over the world. And if the physics was on
Rossi's side, it would be very easy for him to provide the "extraordinary
evidence" required by his extraordinary claims.

But years have passed and the validity of the E-Cat is still an open question.
There have been some demonstrations, but results are still very much under
discussion. There is no undebatable experimental evidence that the device
works as advertised. So either Rossi prefers mystery over fame and billions,
or the E-Cat a scam in some form or another.

~~~
charlysisto
I followed this closely 2/3 years ago, skeptical, yet very excited by the
possibilities of the outcome if true. I followed the heated debates on
ecatnews.com, had a lot of fun but after almost 2 years of postponing a
serious test, came to the conclusion it was a scam. I'm afraid this is yet
another episode of a serie that just can't die.

------
mrb
FWIW, I did my own research about 2 years ago on this mysterious e-cat device,
and I found out there is a surprisingly rich history of unexplained effects in
nickel-hydrogen systems: heat that cannot be explained by theory. I am almost
convinced Rossi and the few other (competing) scientists who are studying this
effect are onto something HUGE. See my post:
[http://blog.zorinaq.com/?e=61](http://blog.zorinaq.com/?e=61)

Unfortunately the scientific community is very hesitant to review/reproduce
the experiments because the words "cold fusion" have had an extremely bad
connotation since the Pons and Fleischmann 1989 fiasco.

~~~
ye
Scientific community would love to test his claims, except he didn't (or
couldn't) tell exactly how it works.

I understand that if he actually discovered something that HUGE, he wouldn't
want to tell anybody, I know I wouldn't.

But please, don't blame it on "scientific community", that's what conspiracy
theorists morons say.

~~~
mrb
Rossi refuses to divulge many details, but other scientists give all
information necessary to reproduce, see Piantelli's research for example.

At this point the blame fully lies on the scientific community for ignoring
these.

~~~
ye
Two groups tried to reproduce Piantelli's "discovery" and couldn't.

I still blame the conspiracy morons.

If you can reproduce it, why not revolutionize energy market and make
billions? Let's hear your made up reasons why you can't.

~~~
mrb
Your attitude (aggressive tone, insults) is _precisely_ why research is not
advancing as fast as it could! You are part of the problem, not researchers
who desperately work on reproducing the effect and who try to have their
results taken seriously.

Also, I meant Celani, not Piantelli (sorry!). He has published a lot of
information in the last 18 months, you should check it out, see:

\-
[http://iccf18.research.missouri.edu/files/Poster/Grimshaw.pd...](http://iccf18.research.missouri.edu/files/Poster/Grimshaw.pdf)

\- [http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/08/celani-demonstrates-
excess...](http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/08/celani-demonstrates-excess-heat-
from-nickel-hydrogen-reactor-at-niweek/)

\-
[http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Francesco_Celani's_LE...](http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Francesco_Celani's_LENR_/_Cold_Fusion_Cell)

------
DanBC
> Many skeptics were left unconvinced. But the customer that the E-Cat was
> being tested for—which Wired UK says was rumored to be the US military's
> DARPA—was satisfied, and purchased the unit.

This doesn't mean that DARPA is not a sceptic. It means the unit has passed
the simplest test of "not a cardboard box covered in tin foil with a guy going
'Beep Boop' next to it". Now DARPA can buy a single unit and tear it apart to
see if there's anything interesting there.

A £1m gamble on interesting is not much for military budgets. I don't think
I'd have spent the money - it feels like a scam or a sad delusion - but maybe
there's some interesting chemistry even if cold fusion isn't there.

~~~
crusso
If I were a military organization, I'd pay for the device in an escrow account
with funds to be released upon validation that the device worked properly.

------
ytjohn
I remember watching the first E-cat "test". This is one of those things that
is either an incredible breakthrough or a "the bigger the lie" type scam. The
key thing to remember is that Rossi is not doing this to advance some
scientific field, but to invent a product for commercial sale. To that end,
any tests or data they release is not intended for rigorous scientific review,
but to convince potential customers that they've got a viable product.

That being said, it definitely seems that they have some sort of energy
breakthrough. Whatever fuel they have in the e-cat outputs more energy per
density than any conventional fuel source. What is not clear is if this is a
battery (like hydrogen) or genuine fuel source. They have been shown to
produce a lot of energy over a period of several hours, but I haven't heard of
any week or month long tests being conducted.

[http://phys.org/news/2013-05-rossi-e-cat-energy-density-
high...](http://phys.org/news/2013-05-rossi-e-cat-energy-density-higher.html)

~~~
anovikov
What i wonder about is how this scam holds for so long being so easy to test.
You attach a simple electricity meter to this and run a lightbulb for a couple
weeks, and when you reach the energy spent per unit of device's mass akin to
gasoline (say 10 KWh/kg), you are onto something real.

~~~
deletes
Maybe you should read the paper conducting exactly such tests, where
researchers concluded the energy density is at least one magnitude above
conventional sources.

------
Vespasian
It might be interesting to know that Andrea Rossi has a history with
"breakthrough" discoveries and inventions.

His former company Petroldragon was disbanded after they dumped over 70.000
tons of toxic waste (and probably their method of recycling oil didn't work at
all).[1 -wikipedia][2- italian source].

Most of the tests that were done violated very basic scientific rules and can
be considered demonstration more than anything. The paper on arxiv.org was
done by a scientist who was very close to Rossi (Giuseppe Levi) and some of
its methods are questionable according to [3 - german] and [4-
shorter/incomplete English version].

A real independent proof of the claims made by Rossi is still to be delivered.

While I hope that Andrea Rossi has found the next BIG thing and that he is
just paranoid and incredibly bad at communicating, I seriously doubt it and go
with "It's a big scam" for now. With some luck history will prove me wrong.

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Rossi_%28entrepreneur%29](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Rossi_%28entrepreneur%29)
[2]
[http://archiviostorico.corriere.it/2004/novembre/27/Riciclag...](http://archiviostorico.corriere.it/2004/novembre/27/Riciclaggio_rifiuti_tossici_Assolto_Andrea_co_7_041127020.shtml)
[3] [http://www.psiram.com/ge/index.php/Focardi-Rossi-
Energiekata...](http://www.psiram.com/ge/index.php/Focardi-Rossi-
Energiekatalysator) [4] [http://www.psiram.com/en/index.php/Focardi-
Rossi_Energy-Cata...](http://www.psiram.com/en/index.php/Focardi-Rossi_Energy-
Catalyzer?COLLCC=880073171&)

EDIT: Typos (at least the worst ones)

------
Retric
What I find amusing about this is the fact there willing to turn these things
on in an unshielded environment demonstrates they know it will fail. 1MW of
the cleanest fusion we know about would still kill everyone in a large room
before you could blink.

PS: If it's enough power to heat a cup of coffee you needed serious shielding.

~~~
Vanayad
Considering it doesn't emit that much radiation, and the one it does is
shielded by lead (afaik) it's ok. I've been reading about the Ecat for quite
some time...at first I had my doubts...but after being peer reviewed, several
tests and running in self-sustain for around 6 months... it is safe to assume
it is going to work.

~~~
anovikov
You can't easily block neutrons with lead. It takes some material with high
content of light atoms such as hydrogen or helium. For example, polyethylene
works well. And it has to be thick. Not box-sized, not even room-sized.

------
JanezStupar
This is a big scam. Note that Rossi has previous experience with similar scams
[1].

Note that basically any and all information on ECAT is distributed through a
big spam network of SEO sites. I have been following this campaign (along with
Steorn) loosely from the very begining.

All the usual telltale signs are there. The project is alway bound to be
released in the next 4 months.

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Rossi_%28entrepreneur%29...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Rossi_%28entrepreneur%29#Petroldragon)

------
deletes
Anyone interested in the subject should read this paper describing two
experiments conducted by outside researchers.

[http://arxiv.org/pdf/1305.3913v3](http://arxiv.org/pdf/1305.3913v3)

------
tomp
The article says that the exact nature of the reaction (e.g. the catalyzer
used) remain secret. At the same time, Wikipedia claims that an Italian patent
was granted for E-Cat.

However, isn't the point of the patent system that the discoveries are made
public? Does this mean, since the catalyzer was apparently not patented, that
someone could (independently invent and) patent it instead? Or do I understand
patents and law in a wrong way?

------
rgrannell1
Hacker News + science is often a very bad mix. Any evidence this is actually a
fusion device, not a chemical energy converter or a brick?

~~~
nefarioustim
As you can see from the other comments above; the jury is firmly out on that
one, but it's still an interesting story considering the "secret" test
customer (which Wired UK says was DARPA[1]).

[1] [http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2011-10/29/rossi-
success](http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2011-10/29/rossi-success)

------
gabrielblack
Andrea Rossi is a scammer. You can search the full story of his previous scam
on Google ( searching Petroldragon ). It should, however, spend a few more
words to talk about his academic qualifications: Andrea Rossi graduated in
PHILOSOPHY and has also acquired a fake degree in chemical engineering from
the "Kensington University," a university-scam that was closed by court order
years ago. In this fake university has "graduated" even Kim Il-Sung from North
Korea ... :-)

[http://news.newenergytimes.net/2012/01/11/rossi-
engineering-...](http://news.newenergytimes.net/2012/01/11/rossi-engineering-
school-shut-down-for-fraud/)

~~~
gabrielblack
An interesting article that appeared in Forbes two days ago:

[http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/11/29/why-im-
ce...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/11/29/why-im-certain-that-
the-rossi-e-cat-doesnt-work-as-advertised/)

------
untrothy
Seems like people with the appropriate qualifications have their doubts about
this machine. [0] [1]

[0] [http://motls.blogspot.com/2013/05/tommaso-dorigo-
impressed-b...](http://motls.blogspot.com/2013/05/tommaso-dorigo-impressed-by-
cold-fusion.html) [1] [http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2013/05/21/the-
e-cat...](http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2013/05/21/the-e-cat-is-
back-and-people-are-still-falling-for-it/)

------
detro
I'm reading this: [http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2013/05/20/finally-
ind...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2013/05/20/finally-independent-
testing-of-rossis-e-cat-cold-fusion-device-maybe-the-world-will-change-after-
all/)

~~~
lafar6502
How long will this keep returning? Of course the device works, with a minor
glitch: it heats the water with same efficiency as any electric water heater.
Because it's an electric boiler with some mumbojumbo attached. I doubt,
however, that any person foolish enough to spend $1.5M on that will ever admit
being fooled.

------
ccozan
actually on the ecat.com site :"Leonardo Corp guarantees a COP of 6 for the
ECAT, meaning that it takes a required 1 kW of input power to produce 6 kW of
heat", which is, granted, quite an achievment.

------
leokun
Berkeley, California is a "nuclear free zone" as the many signs scattered
around the city will announce to those that enter. I guess this machine will
not be allowed for sale here.

------
Aardwolf
It says you need to provide it with hydrogen. Doesn't extracting hydrogen from
water require energy? How much hydrogen and nickel are required for how much
output? (If it works at all)

------
ck2
This is really going to be an amazing decade.

------
Ygg2
How much does this reactor cost? Can't someone buy and review it, test if it
works, etc.?

~~~
mnw21cam
I could mention something about feeding the trolls here...

~~~
Ygg2
Maybe, those that skim the article, but definitely not trolling. I just don't
get excitement/anger around ECat.

NDA however explains why there is no test.

~~~
Dylan16807
You misunderstand. _Rossi_ is the troll. Buying the device encourages him.

------
skorgu
There's got to be a prediction market somewhere I can bet against this thing.

