
New York’s Shadow Transit - philers
http://www.newyorker.com/sandbox/projects/nyc-dollar-vans/
======
WildUtah
This is a great story. It's a look at how people really live in a modern city
and the border between formal and informal commerce. One of the key research
targets in modern sociology and economics and political science is the
emergence of institutions like dollar vans.

It's very difficult to get a public system to cover every route and part of
the city that needs transit, but most city authorities are reluctant to
license cheap private jitneys. The public system employees are usually well
paid and organized to oppose competition and private taxi companies charge
much higher than market rates and are very well positioned to spend some
profits defending their oligopolies.

There are eight first world megacities -- cities over ten million population.
I wonder if they each have an emerging institution like this.

I understand that in Los Angeles, where the busses are awful and the
infrastructure is laser focused on exclusive use of private motorcars, has
dollar vans in the Spanish-speaking communities. I'd be interested to learn if
the Chinese, Vietnamese, and Korean speakers use those or if they have their
own.

In Mexico City, the city has simply licensed dollar vans with just the minimal
oversight necessary for public safety. They've all painted themselves green
and white and the informal routes have firmed up but there is still -- decades
later -- no map, public or private, of the routes of the most common form of
transit in this modern city of 22 million. The routes are set and reliable;
there's just no central authority to collect information.

Tokyo has built the most extensive rail system in the world by far. I don't
know if that has been enough to pre-empt the emergence of informal vans. Seoul
has been building fast to catch up building a similarly extensive network.

I wonder about London, Paris, and Osaka.

~~~
netcan
Israel has always had 'Sherut' taxi vans. These usually follow regular bus
routes and actually pot the bus route's number. The biggest use case is
Saturdays, when public busses don't run, but it's not unknown for a 'sherut'
van to arrive in some terminal trying to put together a route for any
potential travelers sitting around or even to go along a long haul bus route 5
minutes ahead of the official bus and pick up passengers.

Different areas/routes have different conventions. Price is sometimes by
negotiation, sometimes the bus fare and sometimes twice the bus fare.

Makes sense to the people who use it regularly but very hard to penetrate for
a newcomer. Virtually impossible for tourists. Ironically, a lot of guide
books tell tourists to use these.

~~~
davidf18
Yes, the "Sherut" taxi vans(that hold only 10 people) in Tel Aviv are great
and far more frequent than the buses that travel the routes with fewer stops.

There are frequent Sherut taxi vans that travel between Tel Aviv and
Jerusalem. As soon as there are 10 passengers, they go.

I wish NYC had Sherut vans. People would probably taking far fewer taxis and
be much greener if it did.

~~~
findingMyWay
NYC does have these. Called commuter vans. I know of at least one that I used
to take down to Wall Street from the Upper East side. It was great. Fast
service and a fraction of the price of a cab.

There are also Taxi shares in NYC, which are similar, but hold less people
(4). These are somewhat informal affairs and you have to know where to go /
stand. But if you're going downtown anyway, why not split the fare with 4
strangers?

------
buyx
I've commented before on HN with this important cautionary tale from South
Africa: In the late 1980's the apartheid government (which was taking very
tentative steps towards reform) decided to cheaply "solve" the problem of
public transport in poor, black areas, while encouraging small business. Thus
was born the unregulated minibus taxi industry.

It all started off well, but soon, instead of a Free Enterprise utopia of
owner-operators looking after their vehicles, as was envisaged, owners bought
fleets of taxis and "the miracle of the 80's became the nightmare of the 90's"
as they engaged in brutal "taxi wars" over routes.

As far as I know, drivers pay "rent" to the owners, and then keep the
remainder of the takings for the day, incentivising extreme recklessness and
lawlessness as they try to complete as many trips as possible (there are some
South African libertarian types who claim minubus taxis are safe, but the road
safety figures they cite are certainly incomplete and probably wrong).

Attempts to re-regulate have to a large extent, failed, and when Bus-Rapid-
Transit was started in Johannesburg, taxi owners got a cut (with the implicit
threat that drivers/passengers would be killed if they didn't).

Yes, there was a general breakdown in law and order during the transitional
period in South Africa during the 1990's that wouldn't happen in other
countries, but it is a reminder that this sort of business needs to be kept
well regulated.

EDIT: There was also an epidemic of violence on trains (an old and decrepit
network serving the larger black townships) during the chaos of the early
1990's. As far as I know, the perpetrators were never found, even though
elements of the apartheid regime were suspected at the time. The taxi industry
had as strong a motive to carry out the attacks as any.

~~~
humanrebar
There's one data point. One with many special conditions. Calling this a
failure of Free Enterprise is to ignore the conditions you are describing --
people weren't free! Violence, other strong-arm tactics, and lack of liability
are the opposite of freedom. Of course Free Enterprise doesn't work when basic
rights (life, liberty, property, speech, conscience) aren't protected.

And for a counter example, New York is very stingy with its medallions, which
has created powerful special interest groups, and a system that serves drivers
and passengers poorly in many respects.

~~~
msutherl
"Freedom" has two different meanings:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Concepts_of_Liberty](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Concepts_of_Liberty)

~~~
humanrebar
I'm not sure what your point is. A person being harmed due to law-and-order
issues in her society lacks liberty under both meanings.

------
sheltgor
"During the 2013 fiscal year, the Taxi and Limousine Commission impounded more
than six hundred illegal vans, two hundred and forty of them in Brooklyn."

Imagine the uproar on HN if this were to happen to, say, Uber drivers...

~~~
buyx
As someone who watches unregulated taxis brazenly evade flat-footed police on
a daily basis, take my word for it: you're better off with the government
having an iron fist in this case.

------
shiftyrussian
Very common in Russia also, the vans usually put the number of the official
route on the window, so you'd know exactly the route that's going to be taken.
Wish they had this Sydney, but the government is anal on taxing and regulating
people. So no micro businesses for Sydney :(

------
Spooky23
It kind of glossed over the safety issuers associated with these forms of
transit. Life is good until there's an accident.

My brother inspects commercial vehicles. These vans and Chinatown busses are
often unmaintained and owned by shell companies. IIRC, he takes half of the
vans off the road for serious safety violations, and 75% of the busses.
Traditional busses and licensed vans almost never have that happen.

------
bennstancil
It's not just that the immigrant and minority communities served by shadow
transit lack access to public transportation - those areas are also severely
underserved by cabs.

[http://blog.modeanalytics.com/taxi-
drivers/](http://blog.modeanalytics.com/taxi-drivers/)

~~~
jrockway
I don't think that's racism, I think that's business. Taking someone from Penn
Station to Grand Central Terminal is pure profit, because it's fast and you're
guaranteed a fare once you get to Grand Central. Taking someone from low-
density area A to low-density area B is less profitable, so you don't see many
cabs in these low-density areas.

I see this in action all the time, because I tend to bike late at night when
bars are closing and people need cabs. If a cab does end up in Brooklyn,
because they were required by law to take someone from Manhattan there, they
tend to beeline it back to Manhattan, avoiding streets where they might
encounter a fare. Smith St. / Clinton St. is one pair like this. Clinton St.
is a residential street that leads to the Brooklyn Bridge. Nobody naturally
wants a cab there[1]. Smith St. is one street over going the same direction,
and it's all bars and restaurants. It also leads directly to the Brooklyn
Bridge (actually, the Manhattan Bridge; they're very close). But you see most
cabs opting for Clinton instead of Smith, so they don't get stuck picking up
someone in Brooklyn that wants to go even deeper into Brooklyn. Instead, they
try to get back to the highly-profitable Manhattan as quickly as possible,
even if it means going empty.

That's not racism, that's just the reality of how you make money as a cab
driver.

(The cabs that can't pick up passengers in Manhattan all take Smith St.)

[1] Except people like me that have noticed this pattern. I do see cabs
stopping for fares on Clinton, since they have to if flagged down.

~~~
rahimnathwani
_since they have to if flagged down_

Do they abide by this rule 100%? How is it monitored or enforced?

~~~
nickonline
If it's anything like where I live it's not necessarily monitored or enforced.
If you accidentally tell the cabbie where you want to go before getting in
they'll just drive off.

If you're already in the cab when you tell them then they're not likely to
tell you to get out.

~~~
rickyc091
Yep, a lot of times the driver will ask you where you are going before letting
you jump in.

------
cpursley
I'm currently visiting Russia where Marshrutka's (minibuses) are commonplace.
Coming from the US where one has to drive everywhere, it's quite convenient to
pay a dollar or so and get anywhere you need to be. It's a very low-capital
and safe way to solve transportation issues and requires no major
infrastructure overalls.

It makes you wonder if the US national and local political situation is
actually interested in the needs of the people or simply protecting their
benefactors (taxi unions, etc). After seeing the efficiency of private
transit, I'd be willing to accept gray markets then an overbearing police
state if it means reasonable solutions.

------
ebiester
I don't know how the regulations worked in Istanbul, but they were very common
even with the other transit options, and worked very well. I'd go from Kadikoy
to Taksim and back late at night and walk or take the taxi for the rest. For 3
bucks (6 lira) they would leave when full, approximately every 5 minutes, and
were pretty organized.

This is one of the areas where we could use a better public-private
partnership in our cities.

~~~
eru
For westerners the most baffling experience is paying in a dolmus: your money
goes via the persons in front of you to the driver, and change gets handed
back the same way in the opposite direction.

~~~
JackFr
You've never bought a hot dog at a ballgame?

~~~
eru
No. I guess that's a US custom? Interesting!

------
jmorphy88
America's effortless transition into a Third-World country continues.

~~~
pessimizer
This is a 35 year old system.

Also, the US can't be third-world by definition. Third-world just means not
aligned with the US or Russia, and is an anachronism.

~~~
buyx
Everyone knows third-world pretty much means "developing world" nowadays.

~~~
saraid216
Considering the "developed"/"developing" dichotomy is really just "First or
Second World"/"Third World", um, duh?

------
sparkman55
San Francisco has a "Jitney Bus" that attempts to correct the horrendous hole
in transit between the Caltrain commuter rail and downtown.

[http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/A-One-Man-Traffic-
Buster-...](http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/A-One-Man-Traffic-Buster-
Jitney-makes-quick-2832137.php)

There is also a startup called Chariot that is building a private bus line to
downtown SF; this one has a surprisingly different appeal than the ones in the
article in NYC: the existing public Muni bus line from the Marina to downtown
is notoriously slow and crowded, so perhaps commuting professionals would be
willing to pay a little more...

~~~
chrisseaton
'horrendous hole'? Do you mean the 10-15 minute walk from Market Street to the
Caltrain station?

~~~
moultano
Google lists it as a 20 minute walk, which is consistent with the last time I
did it.
[https://www.google.com/maps/dir/San+Francisco+Caltrain+Stati...](https://www.google.com/maps/dir/San+Francisco+Caltrain+Station/37.7856394,-122.4056854/@37.7735179,-122.4055305,15z/data=!4m9!4m8!1m5!1m1!1s0x808f7fd6eb33becf:0xb7d880249f5a29f9!2m2!1d-122.394323!2d37.776439!1m0!3e2)

I'd say adding 20 minutes each way to your commute is a pretty big deal.

------
prawn
This sort of thing will be handled by autonomous vehicles in the future,
potentially plotting an efficient route based on people needing a ride and
their respective destinations.

With an app and even 1-2 of the right vehicles, someone could effectively
enter the public transport space whereas doing so now would require a salaried
driver on top of that and bring pricing that would be too high for ride-
sharing.

~~~
thrownaway2424
Did you even read the article? Half of the dollar van experience is the
opportunity to connect with your own immigrant community and speak your native
language. It's a social experience that silly technogadgets can't replace.

~~~
prawn
Yes, of course I did but I think it's as much about convenience and filling
gaps in official routes as it is about the social experience.

Awareness (in the absence of formal route maps and schedules) comes from the
community but not only because of it. If you arrived in a country and someone
said "Check out this app, it's available in your language on most phones, the
vehicles can go where you want to go and you'll never have trouble with
language issues," it's not as though a majority will ignore that.

We'll see high traffic lines operated much as they are (trains and larger
buses) but I definitely think we'll eventually see automated vans operated
within the gaps as these vans do.

------
dcposch
> “Back in the day, officers used to harass us day and night: throw van keys
> on the roof, throw them in the garbage, bring us into the station just for
> driving a van.” An N.Y.P.D. spokeswoman didn’t respond to a request for
> comment

The sad thing is that stories like those don't even seem to elicit surprise.

We need a way to refocus our police on their mission, to "protect and serve".
We need to demand more professionalism from them. It's a difficult challenge.
By nature, the job attracts a lot of bad applicants along with the good.

"officers used to [...] throw van keys on the roof, throw them in the garbage"

Why do we tolerate people walking our cities with guns and tasers who behave
like schoolyard bullies?

~~~
cooper12
The person said "back in the day". While yes, the article does say that police
still harass these commuter vans, I doubt they still resort to such tactics.
The article says that they mainly just ticket them.

And in response to your point about needing to refocus the police:

>“It’s about safety, and I field a lot of community complaints about how these
vans drive aggressively. We’re not trying to hurt the honest guys making a
living, but if you do something illegal, if you’re picking up a hail or
picking up on a bus stop, I don’t care if you’re accredited with signage on
the side of your van—you’re gonna get a ticket.”

I argue that the police are doing their jobs. They are stopping illegal
commuter vans that are endangering their passengers and other drivers while
harming public transportation and legal Taxi services.

------
comrh
My team for the National Day of Civic Hacking worked on similar data. One of
the things we came across was the lack of reliable schedules and a lack of
info in Spanish which is the language of a large number of people who use this
system.

------
rwhitman
One could argue the hipster-friendly beach buses that go from Brooklyn and LES
to the Rockaways in summertime are yuppie shadow transit

There are also a large number of better sanctioned private bus lines that go
from Port Authority to various points in a 100 mile radius. I take one to get
to my parents in PA on a regular basis, where there is jack squat for public
transit

------
davidf18
NYC has been making great efforts to improve bus service. They are adding more
buses to routes, but they also have a system where you purchase ticket
receipts from machines off the busses and can enter through both front and
back doors. If you're caught without a receipt, you get a substantial fine.

~~~
gk1
> "... a system where you purchase ticket receipts from machines off the
> busses and can enter through both front and back doors."

For anyone curious, the point is that this greatly reduces the time spent at
each stop. On regular buses, passengers must enter through one door and, one
by one, make their payment (with either a Metrocard or cash).

~~~
keithpeter
Bus passes? In most UK cities you can buy a photo-id pass for a week or a
month and just get on. Most regular users have them.

------
incision
It's funny, I somehow expected this would be about anything but dollar cabs -
they're just a mundane part of life throughout the mid-Atlantic.

Where I grew up they were the cabs and delivery service since the 'legit'
equivalents refused to come into the neighborhood.

~~~
saraid216
Define "mid-Atlantic"? I could imagine that covering everywhere from Spain to
Africa to the West Indies to the American South.

~~~
incision
In the US it refers to a section of the East Coast [1].

1: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-
Atlantic_states](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_states)

------
Mandatum
Interesting, I've never heard of these operating in New Zealand or Australia.
I've heard of people operating illegal taxis but they're very far and few. It
could be a fair opportunity given the current state of public transport in
Auckland, NZ.

------
jgiger2014
It seems *similar unlicensed busses are gone now:
[http://www.fastcompany.com/1839333/business-lessons-
chinatow...](http://www.fastcompany.com/1839333/business-lessons-chinatown-
buses)

~~~
Blackthorn
I never understood how those unlicensed "Chinatown buses" managed to survive
anyway. Their fares weren't any cheaper than their licensed (and FAR safer)
brethren in Megabus.

~~~
lazerwalker
The likes of Megabus and BoltBus didn't exist before the Chinatown busses
became popular. They were all spun up by the big old-fashioned bus companies
as competition after they realized there was a market there. BoltBus, for
example, is run by Peter Pan and Greyhound.

------
pzaich
This sounds very similar to what Chariot
([https://chariotsf.com/](https://chariotsf.com/)) is trying to do in SF.
Filling a gap between MUNI and taxi/uber/lyft?

------
netcan
It's fascinating that in 2014, transportation is still such a big hairy
problem. Everything from local cycling routes to taxis to fights is
complicated, big & hairy.

------
abalashov
This is almost exactly how the "marshrutkas" (see Wikipedia entry) of the
former Soviet bloc, which continue to operate in a most or all CIS countries,
came to be.

------
dang
Url changed from
[http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/currency/2014/07/inter...](http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/currency/2014/07/interactive-
new-yorks-shadow-transit-system.html), which points to this.

------
philsnow
The tails on those "Q"s though......

font-family is "caslon". Looks _great_ , going to have to use that.

