
Toronto adds more tech jobs than Silicon Valley in past 5 years - chollida1
https://m.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/07/24/toronto-best-city-tech-jobs_a_23488711/
======
lacker
Something doesn't seem right about these stats. From the article:

 _The report by CBRE Group says Toronto added 82,100 technology-related jobs
between 2012 and 2017 to beat out the San Francisco Bay Area for the spot by
about 4,270 jobs._

82,000 jobs over 5 years, ok. Let's look at some other accounts of Bay Area
tech jobs, for example [https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2017/02/10/tech-job-
growth-slow...](https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2017/02/10/tech-job-growth-slows-
in-bay-area/) :

 _Tech’s annual job growth throttled back to 3.5 percent, or 26,700 new jobs,
in 2016. That’s much slower than the 6 percent annual gain of 42,300 jobs in
2015, or the 6.4 percent gain in 2014._

That describes around 110,000 jobs growth in just three years.

These numbers just don't match. The first one is based on a survey by a real
estate group, the second one is based on official statistics from the
California government. What's the reality here? I can't say, but I do know
that you can't trust hypey news articles that don't bother to dig around for
the most accurate data sources. My guess is that this survey operated by a
real estate group is just bad data.

~~~
Bartweiss
These stats are bad, but it's much worse than just sloppy data gathering in
the survey. See the discussion here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17610221](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17610221)

You can get numbers much like HuffPo's if you compare urban San Francisco
(population 800,000) to Toronto (population 3,000,000). Which is grossly
misleading to begin with, but they then listed it as "Silicon Valley" in the
headline and the "San Francisco Bay Area" in the body. Which are, obviously,
three fundamentally different regions.

The CBRE data probably isn't perfect, but projecting their San Francisco
percentage change back to 2013 does match Census Bureau numbers surprisingly
well. Things get a bit confusing in 2018 because it looks like CBRE changed
their grouping from SV and SF separately to the whole Bay combined.

Unfortunately, HuffPo didn't know or care about that distinction, so we got
this article instead.

~~~
Tsarbomb
That discussion doesn't mention that when people commonly refer to Toronto
from abroad they refer to the GTA which is a population 6,300,000 or the
broader Golden Horseshoe urban area which can include the other tech hub
(Waterloo) which brings the number to over 9,200,000.

This just makes it all the more confusing.

~~~
Bartweiss
Interesting, thanks. Not knowing Toronto, I didn't know if it described a
standard metro area like some cities do. So now we've got three regions on
each side, and no sign which of the 9 possible comparisons is being employed?

What a mess.

------
dkonieczek
I'm a Toronto native and have been working as a dev for the past two years.
COL is extremely high compared to salaries. This is likely the biggest problem
for anyone looking to move here. For example, a small 1 bedroom condo downtown
will run you at least CA$2k a month. For a larger 1 bedroom or 1+den your
easily looking at $2-3k in today's demanding market. Public transit is usually
a hit or miss during rush hour. I'd suggest looking into Kitchener/Waterloo,
Markham or Ottawa area if you're considering moving here. COL in these areas
compared to Toronto is drastic and many of the bigN companies (Shopify,
Google, IBM, etc..) are located here.

~~~
DKnoll
You don't need to live downtown. I commute via car from Port Credit where I
have an $850/mo bachelor apartment and work at Queen and Bathurst.

~~~
robbrit
You lost me at "commute via car". Toronto has a reputation for some of the
worst traffic in North America.

It might be cheaper to live that far away, but the cost in quality of life +
hours commuting isn't worth the trade. Instead you can just go to a smaller
town like Waterloo or a cheaper city like Montreal or Ottawa.

~~~
apercu
You could easily take a GO train from Port Credit to downtown. Very easily. We
did it from Clarkson (the next stop West).

~~~
parthdesai
So you pay at the least around $300 a month to commute via GO train and then
you need a car which is at the least another $500 when you factor in gas +
insurance + lease. That's another $800 to your monthly expense and add
commuting time to that.

~~~
DKnoll
I bought my car outright, and I would have got that and my insurance whether I
need it for work or not. For me the GO train + TTC is approx $13 a day.
Driving is $18, which includes parking and gas. Why would I pay for the GO and
driving daily (500 + 300)? That doesn't make any sense lol. Even if I included
the cost of my car, insurance, gas, parking and (to make it fun) my cable
bill, I still pay less than the base cost of an entry level apartment
downtown. I don't consider my time driving wasted, it's leisure time.

EDIT: On second reading you may be talking about driving to the GO station, in
which case I agree... although I can easily walk to the GO station in <5
minutes myself. Your parent comment might also live a short walk or bus ride
away from the Clarkson GO station

------
neivin
As a Toronto native, who now lives in Silicon Valley (part of the brain drain
from Waterloo), there is a reason why everyone leaves Toronto/Canada - the
salaries are simply laughable when compared to the bay area.

The only reason you would stay in Toronto for a job in tech is if you wanted
to stay close to family, or your girlfriend/boyfriend/spouse.

Or, you just hate money and being at the center of the tech industry...

~~~
ttt111222333
There are no big companies in Toronto that have tech jobs. Google, Facebook,
Airbnb, Uber, etc. don't have tech jobs in Toronto. Amazon just started adding
tech jobs in Toronto in the past maybe year or two and Shopify is the only
exception to this rule.

If any toronto natives know of some big companies in Toronto with tech jobs
please prove me wrong.

~~~
faramarz
Plenty!

Muse, Google, Facebook, Softchoice, IBM, ALL major banks have a tech arm now,
like Scotia Banks Digital Factory, CIBC Live Labs ,etc., and other tech
companies, Flip, Wave, Freshbooks, Wattpad (raised major vc money), Ritual
(raised 75m this year), TribalScale, Worktango, just to name a few.

~~~
Panini_Jones
Facebook doesn't have an engineering office in Toronto.

~~~
faramarz
You're right!

Replace fb with Autodesk.

------
Element_
There are over 350,000 Canadians living and working in Silicon Valley.
Canada's total population is only ~35 million. There is good reason for this
mass exodus.

The rates for tech workers in Toronto are terrible. An enterprising worker can
easily triple their income by working for American companies.

The fact that this report is sourced from a real estate firm should give you a
hint to the rent-seeking nature of the Canadian economy.

~~~
dyarosla
Could you link your source for the 350k figure? Thank you!

~~~
RandallBrown
Toronto is 75k CAD (57k USD) ([https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/toronto-
software-engineer...](https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/toronto-software-
engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,7_IM976_KO8,25.htm))

San Francisco is 124k USD ([https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-
software-en...](https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-software-
engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,13_IM759_KO14,31.htm))

So, it's not triple, but it's more than double.

Also, if you're going from a junior/midlevel role in CA to a senior position
in the US, you could pretty easily triple your salary.

~~~
dyarosla
I think you replied to the wrong parent

~~~
RandallBrown
No, it was the right one, I just misread the original post and thought 350k
was referring to tripling their salary.

------
woahitsraj
Yeah the Toronto tech job market is really hot right now. Moved there from
Silicon Valley for almost two years but I wouldn't recommend it. Pay is much
lower and cost of living is still relatively high. If you are looking to stay
in North America, Seattle, Austin, or LA, seem like much better bets to me

------
to_bpr
I'll put it in a mildly hyperbolic manner, to match the quality of the source
this article came from:

Toronto gets the sloppy seconds of America's tech industry; the Canadian tech
grads who couldn't move to the US, the Indian tech migrants who couldn't get
US visas, the "startups" who couldn't get US VC funding, tech conferences etc.
etc.

That some companies are seeking to lower their costs but retain "North
American culture" by transferring some functions to Toronto is not an
indication of the strength of Toronto, but its weakness. Cheap dollar, far
cheaper salaries, cheap(er) office spaces, far cheaper politicians to buy if
necessary, etc.

When _anyone_ in the North American tech industry can name 5 bustling Canadian
startups from the top of their mind, then maybe we can talk about the Canadian
tech industry doing well. Until then, it's about as relevant in tech as
Bangalore and jobs there are as relevant as any of those located in other
outsourced, cost-reducing "tech centres".

------
atomic77
The only hope the Toronto tech scene has to escape from its mediocrity is,
ironically, a renegotiation of Nafta, or a major change in government policy
on immigration.

As long as the cost for privileged access to the US market is open season to
poach the best and brightest of our labour market, and a local tech scene too
addicted what amounts to a subsidy in the form of large immigration numbers
that prevent wages here from adjusting upwards to US levels, very little will
take root here beyond satellite offices and near-shoring, and the brain drain
will continue.

------
zcid
This is a garbage article. At least link to the original press release from
CBRE: [https://www.cbre.us/about/media-center/tech-
thirty-2016](https://www.cbre.us/about/media-center/tech-thirty-2016).

~~~
Bartweiss
That press release is 2016, and puts San Francisco at the top of the list. The
HuffPo article makes its claim using 2012 - 2017 stats, so presumably it's a
newer report. Here are the CBRE report summaries for 2017 and 2018:

[https://www.cbre.com/research-and-
reports/Tech-30-2017](https://www.cbre.com/research-and-reports/Tech-30-2017)

[https://www.cbre.us/about/media-center/tech-
talent-2018](https://www.cbre.us/about/media-center/tech-talent-2018)

[https://www.cbre.us/research-and-reports/Scoring-Tech-
Talent...](https://www.cbre.us/research-and-reports/Scoring-Tech-Talent-in-
North-America-2018)

I still appreciate the link, though, because HuffPo didn't source their
numbers, which look _very_ strange. CBRE's 2017 data says San Francisco has
had the highest percentage growth in tech jobs for 6 years running, and it's
~20 points higher than Toronto in each timeframe listed. The 2018 report does
list Toronto growing at 51.5%, and the San Francisco Bay Area growing at 31%.

But we need to know what region is being assessed - the 2016 report separates
San Francisco and Silicon Valley, so this is a crucial difference. San
Francisco proper is 800,000 people, Silicon Valley is ~3,000,000, Toronto
~3,000,000 and the Bay Area is 8,000,000. The CBRE data _does_ break out
Silicon Valley separately, at least in pre-2018 reports. The headline here
says "Silicon Valley", but the body gives numbers for the "San Francisco Bay
Area".

Working backwards from the publicly-available CBRE report stats, I get 90,000
new tech jobs in Toronto from 2013-2017. That's noticeably higher than
HuffPo's 82,000 from 2012-2017, but plausible given that I'm using CBRE's
heavily-rounded numbers.

San Francisco apparently had 79,100 tech jobs at the start of 2017, up from
56,800 at the start of 2015. We can back-calculate to 38,600 tech workers in
2013. Calculations from Census Bureau estimates from that time period put the
number somewhere very similar in 2013, suggesting that this is correct. CBRE
tells us San Francisco also had the highest percentage growth surveyed in
2012, so we can project 2012 growth from the next years. Percentage growth has
been slowing, so I used the 2013-2015 rate to get 7,300 new jobs in 2012.
Those numbers are for _San Francisco itself_ , population 800,000. If we
nevertheless apply the 2017 " _San Francisco Bay Area_ " percentage growth to
this number, we get 2013-3017 growth of 65,600, for a 2012-2017 total change
of 72,900.

> _Toronto... beat out the San Francisco Bay Area for the spot by about 4,270
> jobs._

82,000-72,900 = 9,100

This is 2x HuffPo's number, but I'm _really_ working the data to make these
rounded percentages workout. Fortunately, all of the other differences we're
worried about dwarf this. It's not Silicon Valley, that's distinct, and it
_can 't_ be the whole Bay Area, because that would imply the non-SF Bay Area
of 7,200,000 people gained a total of 4,000 tech jobs in five years.

It looks like HuffPo used CBRE's San Francisco proper numbers, cited raw
counts despite a ~4x population difference, and then reported it as the "San
Francisco Bay Area" based on CBRE's 2018 language. That, or they failed to
notice that CBRE (and other firms like PwC) have changed their region
breakdown this year, and simply conflated Bay Area numbers from one year with
San Francisco numbers from other years.

It looks like somebody tried for a dramatic-but-misleading story with a
useless comparison, confused their subject between headline and body, and
ultimately made a numerical statement that's simply false. Failing to link
their source was probably a good move given all that.

(And I'll bet this article took half as long to write and publish as it took
commenters to debunk. The Gish Gallop even works for professional news
organizations.)

~~~
zcid
Thanks for the correction.

------
AnthonyWnC
Also Toronto native; was making just under 100k ~ 3 years ago in SysEng/devops
role. Now working in NYC in similar role at ~ 185k (Cdn). Even with CoL
(housing) of NYC, my savings is much higher.

Personally I much prefer to live in Toronto but the salary is just too low.

~~~
robbrit
Agreed. I moved from Montreal to SF a few years back and although my rent
tripled, so did my income. The net result is much more savings than I would
have gotten if I had stayed in Canada.

If you're a saver/investor then it makes much more sense to move to the US for
a little while, save up a decent sized nest egg, then move back.

~~~
Apocryphon
One wonders how difficult is it to work remotely for a US firm while in
Canada.

~~~
robbrit
Based on my anecdotal experience, it would depend entirely on you: your
experience, your reputation, and your negotiating ability. If you're a top
senior engineer or a celebrity like Tim Bray
([https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/](https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/)) then you
can probably swing something with the BigCos, but for a regular
junior/intermediate developer you'll have a tougher time getting a deal like
that.

------
fouc
I think the "senior" web developers with less than 5 years work history seem
to be earning $90K/year, which seems low.

Any thoughts?

~~~
miguelrochefort
I don't know any Canadian developer with less than 5 years of experience
earning $90k/year. Most developers I know with more than 5 years of experience
earn less than $90k/year.

~~~
angerbot
I'm at $90k with ~3 years experience (located in Toronto). Many of my
colleagues are either at 90 or very close (~85) with similar experience. I've
lived in Vancouver as well and have seen similar compensation.

~~~
miguelrochefort
I'm located in Montreal. Could that explain the difference?

~~~
angerbot
Yes, cost of living in Montreal is nowhere near what it is in Vancouver or
Toronto

------
x1ph0z
As some other users have mentioned, salaries could be higher compared to SL or
NYC, but it's not like they're shit. Salaries are pretty decent, the only
complaint would be the house/condo prices are kinda insane at the moment. Even
with all that, Toronto and Canada in general is one of the best places to be
in NA, especially if your a visible minority.

------
m23khan
Another reason is abundance of IT talent in and around Toronto with top-class
educational institutions (both Universities and Community Colleges) churning
out armies of great IT workers.

That and combined with relatively lower salaries...

------
betaby
Salaries in Toronto are pretty low comparable to COL.

------
stuxnet79
As a developer who has been working and applying for jobs in the Toronto area
for the past 3 years I find the tech ecosystem highly dysfunctional and I'm
glad I finally moved out.

~~~
brodsky
> I find the tech ecosystem highly dysfunctional

Could you elaborate? curious what you mean.

------
lgleason
CBRE is an unreliable source for tech talent market news.

------
motohagiography
Would propose that a better relative measure of salaries is not against cost
of living, but the delta between what it costs per year to hire a contractor
vs. hire employee for the same role. This would show whether firms are in fact
paying more for employees against the contracting cost, which is the real
clearing price for the value of the work in the market - unclouded by promises
of "stability."

Do we have anecdotes about the delta is between how much it costs to hire a
contractor vs. employee for same role in the Bay Area vs. Toronto.

In Toronto, anecdotally, per year a contractor costs between %175 and %200 of
an employee. Contractor firms take their %15-%50 cut depending on contractor
desperation.

What's it like in the Bay Area?

------
AzzieElbab
The article is like it's headline copied and pasted twice. Does "tech jobs"
mean jobs at "tech" companies or does it also include tech jobs in finance,
telco and government? Most of those are also in Toronto.

------
gabriel34
When comparing different locations I find beneficial to look at the local
purchasing power. Numeo has a quite accurate comparison of cost of living,
salaries and LPP: [https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...](https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Canada&country2=United+States&city1=Toronto&city2=San+Francisco%2C+CA)

Bottom line is, for the basket of goods and services used in their comparison,
LPP at San Francisco is 30% higher than Toronto.

------
lsiunsuex
You all can send some of your tech jobs over here to Buffalo, NY. We're only
about 1-2 hour drive from Toronto give or take traffic on the QEW and COL is
pretty cheap IMO. When I had a house, it was 1700 sq ft for about $1100 /
month mortgage. I'm in an apartment now - 1300 sq ft 3 bedroom / 2 full bath
for about $1625 / month. Onsite pool, gym, dog park, attached garage - lots of
nice stuff.

And plenty of skilled workers surrounded by 4 or 5 private and public
colleges. And some of the best pizzerias lol...

------
true_tuna
Did they add enough housing to match? Asking for a friend.

~~~
randomdata
Jobs only come into existence once they are being done, so presumably the
people who are doing them them are living somewhere.

~~~
acchow
Doesn't mean housing is built.

San Francisco builds 1 unit of housing for every 1.8 jobs. This means tons of
people commute into the city from elsewhere, and lots of living rooms
converted into de-facto bedrooms.

~~~
randomdata
Certainly, but that still describes enough housing. Unless there is an
indication that these tech workers are living on the street homeless?

~~~
acchow
> living rooms converted into de-facto bedrooms

> but that still describes enough housing

At what point does it not describe enough housing? 3 bunk beds in the living
room and 2 bunk beds per bedroom? Someone living in the bathtub?

~~~
randomdata
Good question. If someone has a tech career, which should provide sufficient
income to be able to afford to leave town and head for a place where housing
is more abundant, but decides to stay anyway, then presumably they can be
considered to have housing. I am not sure it is fair for us to judge how
people choose to live within those houses. If sleeping in a living room is
your thing, more power to you.

------
kolbe
How? Why? I mean, it's easy to see the return on investment that SV has
yielded from employing more people, and to see the competitive advantage SV
has to maintain its growth. But Toronto is everything bad about SV, and
nothing good. Its housing is just as unaffordable, yet it doesn't have a large
network of talent from decades of innovative companies to draw from.

~~~
rublev
>Its housing is just as unaffordable

What? It's not even remotely close.

~~~
rpeden
Not in absolute terms, but it's closer when you compare housing cost vs
compensation, I think.

The cost of rental housing has jumped up quite a bit recently, too. When I was
looking for a place to live in 2015, I saw quite a few condos for rent right
downtown for $1700-1800 a month. Now I see units in those same buildings
renting for $2300 a month and up.

Still cheaper than SV, I suppose? And if you don't mind a bit of a commute,
you can find more affordable accommodation.

~~~
parthdesai
Yup, all the new building (buildings built after 1992) weren't under rent-
control. Since last year, they now are under rent-control which means landlord
can only increase rent by 1.7% every year, which is why you saw that jump in
rent. Not leaving my condo until i manage to buy my own place, which is going
to be very difficult as well.

------
st3fan
Mozilla is hiring in Toronto. Check out jobs page!

