
Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain - ryanlol
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41780116
======
alexandrerond
It's very hard to see a discussion on this topic that does not miss the true
point:

This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and
Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the
majority and of the European Union.

On the Catalan side, the Nationalist movement is used by dubious politicians
which belong to the richer statements of Catalan society to grab power and
"make history". The love of the flag and the dishonest approach to history and
current socio-economics of the region are strategies followed by every other
wannabe-patriot in the world. The illogical approach to their goals and the
complete divorce from reality will likely hurt any further attempts for
autonomy or proper independence in the long term.

On the Spanish side, the winners of this conflict are ruling right wing and
all the until now minoritary extreme-right movements. Thanks to Catalonia,
Spanish nationalism of the worst kind can resurface and perpetuate itself in
power. It is not casual that Spanish rulers have been completely deaf to the
long standing demands of a large part of the Catalonian population.

The only way the Spanish nationalists win is by having the Catalonians take
the most confrontational of the paths: declaration of independence.

The only way the Catalonian nationalists win, is by having the Spaniard ones
repress and provide a moral ground which supports their otherwise futile
aspirations: break the law.

Whoever the winner of this fight is, it will be a sad day for Europe, because
nationalism and national borders will have prevailed and this goes against
everything we need to build a stronger and better EU.

The tragedy here is that, in the end, everyone loses. Politicians are not
focused on crushing poverty, judges are not working to end corruption, police
is not busy catching terrorists. The majority is just watching this sad show,
hoping it's over soon, so they can go back to their lives which, by the way,
are exactly or worse than before.

~~~
narag
This mischaracterization is very common. The phallacy is framing the people
against nationalism as nationalists. It's the same dirty trick as saying that
atheism is just another kind of religion. Of course you add the "extreme-
right" insult for good measure.

Most people in Spain are not nationalists of any kind. That's just a lie.
Nationalist votes are, being most generous under 10% of national grand total.
People opposing to nationalism are just refusing the tribal bs.

 _Whoever the winner of this fight is, it will be a sad day for Europe,
because nationalism and national borders will have prevailed and this goes
against everything we need to build a stronger and better EU._

This nonsense we've been hearing for years: let them do whatever they want to
do or else they win. WHAT?

~~~
alexandrerond
I didn't frame anyone. I just said that the people calling the shots in this
conflict are nationalists.

In fact, I'm saying the majority of non-nationalistic people are just hostages
in this fight, which are only good to convert more people to the cause.

~~~
narag
No, the people in spanish gov are not nationalists. I have a lot of bad things
to say against Rajoy but nationalist is not one.

And no, non-nationalists are not hostages. We are sick and tired of
nationalism and most of us would have wanted the government to react much
sooner to the abuses, specially the non-nationalists living in Catalonia that
are the ones that have suffered this situation more directly.

~~~
tirant
I don't know under what prism you do not consider the PP party not
nationalists, when they are the direct successors of the Spanish National
Catolicism movement that ruled Spain under Franco's dictatorship.

~~~
narag
Do you know what? I was there, I saw the transition, I saw the people and I
saw the evolution. What you say is not even wrong. It's just nonsense.

PP is a standard conservative party, equivalent to Puigdemont's CiU (now
PDCAT) and that has been in the government _with the support of CiU_ for
years, during Aznar times.

PP turned a blind eye to catalonian nationalists' abuses when they needed them
to keep power. Now they're starting to see the consequences.

Rajoy must be the laziest prime minister the world has seen. He wouldn't move
a finger without absolute need for it. Even in this dramatic situtation he has
hold his breath until he was risking stiff penal prosecution _for himself_ had
he not acted!!

Suggesting he is promoting the escalating is not only untrue, it's ridiculous.

------
johnnyfaehell
From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have:

It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing
a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and
attempt to ignore the problem.

If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that
a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what
happened is, they blankly declared it illegal and hoped that would be the end
of it. While parties who were against independence were telling people to
boycott it and parties for it telling people to vote yes. It seems the only
outcome there is a massive yes vote.

Once they had the massive yes vote, they have a democratic mandate for
independence. Not only that, they get to say they have 90% mandate. The only
way forward from that is for the Spanish government to back down and start
negotiations or for indepence to be declared.

Here we are as Catalan declares independence, which it seems can either turn
into a civil war, a flat-out failure with everyone arrested, Spain eating some
humble pie to get them back to the table, or Spain just accepting Catalan is
gone. It'll be interesting to see what happens.

~~~
simion314
But the referendum was invalid because of the constitution, you can't ignore
the constitution because you want, you need to change the constitution.

~~~
psadri
Everyone keeps talking about the constitution as if it is set in stone. The
constitution was made by people, 50 years ago. It can and should be changed to
reflect new realities.

~~~
nemo44x
Then change the constitution instead of blithely ignoring it and conducting an
illegal election.

~~~
setzer22
Catalonia has, unfortunately, 0 power in changing the Spanish constitution.
It's up to Spain's good will to do so. And we have seen enough examples of
such will.

~~~
simion314
Did they tried? I did nto read that they proposed it and had a referendum
about changing it.

------
jannes
The senate in Madrid just voted to trigger article 155 of the Spanish
constitution, which allows them to cancel the regional government.

That should stop tax money flowing...

I could only find an article in Spanish as it only happened a few minutes ago:
[http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=es&tl=en&u=http...](http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=es&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Felpais.com%2Fccaa%2F2017%2F10%2F27%2Fcatalunya%2F1509084887_217853.html&sandbox=1)

Edit: Looks like the BBC has updated the article to include this now.

~~~
ensignavenger
If they just declared independence, why would they expect tax money from the
government they just separated from?

~~~
ben_w
The cynic in me says “because humans are like that”. For example, one elected
UKIP official expected the EU to pay for a road in the UK after brexit.

Wouldn’t be surprised if either Spain or Catalonia now acts confused when
someone puts an armed customs inspector on the border roads between them.

~~~
tom_mellior
Not sure what you mean by "after Brexit", but the UK is a full member of the
European Union. If the EU has current obligations to finance that road
project, whatever that may be, then of course it has to fulfill them.

~~~
ben_w
That would be far too sensible. I mean this: [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-
europe-38153180](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38153180)

Which seems to refer to this:
[http://gov.wales/topics/transport/roads/schemes/m4/corridor-...](http://gov.wales/topics/transport/roads/schemes/m4/corridor-
around-newport/?lang=en)

Which is currently “planned” and won’t start until next summer at the
earliest.

~~~
tom_mellior
Ha, thanks. To give the guy the benefit of the doubt, he did seem to be
talking about Ireland more specifically, and about basically defrauding the EU
(which he presumably doesn't like much). But yes, more likely he's just an
idiot.

------
mvitorino
What does this even mean: "declared independence"?

Have they ordered borders to be closed? Bank accounts to be frozen until new
currency is introduced? Have people started throwing their Spanish passports
and their euros into the trash?

It just sounds like a lot like pure political manoeuvre without any kind of
practical consequence.

~~~
jannes
I think for them it's only about having their own constitution and
sovereignty. Another one of their goals might be to stop using the Spanish
language, which a big part of the population has done already.

They are perfectly fine with open borders, being a part of the European Union,
using the Euro as currency, and even with keeping their Spanish passports
(i.e. double nationality).

~~~
mvitorino
I'm sure they would, but once they are independent, they can't legally use the
Euro. Would they even continue to be Spanish citizens and be able to travel
freely in the Schengen area? A new state takes years to join the EU (assuming
the EU would accept). How about sovereign debt?

All these (really important) issues that should be part of an extensive debate
so that people could understand better what is expecting them on the other
side.

Also, I don't know any country that allows constitutional changes to be done
via a simple majority in parliament (they had 3 votes above simple majority).

The only reasonable exit at this point, I believe, is to have new elections.

~~~
slaymaker1907
Of course they can continue to use the euro. They wouldn't have any control
over it, but a country can use whatever currency their population will accept.
IIRC there are a few small nations that don't really have their own currency
and just use USD instead.

~~~
mvitorino
You are right, I oversimplified it in my comment. People could still trade
using euros. But I guess the only way to get more currency in the country
would be via foreign trade. Banks would not have access to EU QE, deposit
guarantees might be no longer valid and the state could no longer print
currency to replace old ones.

------
diego_moita
Canadian perspective here. We also had our troubles with separatism.

Back from the 60's till the late 90's Quebec had very good and valid reasons
to separate from Canada, mostly because of prejudice against their language
and culture. They came very close to separating from Canada in 2 referenda.

A few things decreased these tensions: compromise, increased economic
dependence, immigration and cultural change within Quebec. Canada conceded a
lot of rights to Quebec and increased the use of French within the English
speaking part of the country. The immigrants that arrived in Quebec didn't
have the memory of past grievances. The Quebecois culture changed becoming
more cosmopolitan and less Catholic (we call it "The Quiet Revolution").

After these changes, separatism is today a political liability in Quebec.
Their separatist party only succeeds when they disguise their separatism.

~~~
kolbe
The lesson here: allow the Chinese to create a real estate bubble, so your
country can have the economic resources to placate and pay off places you've
colonized.

Within a decade of the Canadian real estate bubble pop, Quebec will be an
independent nation. Mark my words.

~~~
dang
Would you please stop posting flamebait and/or unsubstantive comments to
Hacker News? We have enough trouble with flamewars as it is, and you've
unfortunately been doing this quite a bit. If you'd read the guidelines and
stick to them when commenting here, we'd appreciate it:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html).

~~~
kolbe
And by far the least substantiated and most insulting comment in many threads
is you saying "flame" and "flamebait" all the time. This term does not have a
very good definition. It's very hard for anyone to know what exactly it is
that you're trying to regulate when you use such a vague and condescending
colloquialism. And you do it in like half of your posts.

~~~
dang
If you don't see what's wrong with what you posted above, read
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)
and take them to heart. It's not hard to use this site as intended if you want
to.

------
Findeton
It's not true, they haven't declared independence. This is a resolution
proposal, which means it's not a law and it has no legal value (I mean, not
even from the point of view of a pro-independence judge/lawyer). It's a
proposal asking the Catalan government to declare independence.

But it's fulfilling its purpose, which is to escalate things in a political
sense while maintaining the status-quo in the legal realm: it's a provocation
to the Spanish government, seeking an over-reaction from the Spanish
government, with the aim to maintain the moral victory over Spain in the
matter of independence.

~~~
andrewla
My understanding from these articles is that the referendum was that -- a
resolution proposal. But the most recent vote (70 for, 10 against, 2 abstains,
out of 135 representatives) is a direct declaration of independence.

I don't speak Spanish and I can't find any primary sources on it, but this is
what all the news sources that I have seen are saying. If you have more
information or citations, I'd love to see them.

Here are some sources saying it was a declaration of independence:

[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/27/spanish-
governmen...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/27/spanish-government-
demands-special-powers-could-remove-catalan/)

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/a-day-of-fireworks-
in-c...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/a-day-of-fireworks-in-catalonia-
both-spanish-and-catalan-parliaments-are-scheduled-to-
convene/2017/10/27/09685d34-ba90-11e7-9b93-b97043e57a22_story.html?utm_term=.153dbe2aaa0c)

[http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41771294](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-
europe-41771294)

Also, (sigh), the twitter-based declaration from the government of Catalan
itself:

[https://twitter.com/i/web/status/923908635520053248](https://twitter.com/i/web/status/923908635520053248)

~~~
Findeton
It's a declaration of independence, approved in a resolution proposal, which
means it's a petition to the Catalan government, not a law or anything like
that. Which means it hasn't changed the legal body at all. The Catalan
government could also ignore the petition, as it's not a binding mandate, just
a petition.

My sources? I am Spanish and I have friends who are lawyers.

EDIT: You mention the Catalan Gov's twitter. Well, of course, they will say
whatever they want. Their aim is to provoke the Spanish government.

~~~
Ajedi32
I'm confused. A petition to the Catalan government, by the Catalan parliament?
They're petitioning themselves?

~~~
dragonwriter
“government” here seems to mean roughly what, in the American system, would be
called the “administration” or “executive branch”.

From the procedural descriptions, this looks less like what Americans would
think of as a “request” or “petition” than passing a bill and sending it for
the assent of the executive (which might be given or withheld), as is the
typical mode of legislation in the US system (both at the federal level and in
the states.)

~~~
Findeton
It's not a bill, as it's not a law. It's a formal request to the executive
branch to do something.

~~~
kgwgk
In particular, to apply a law passed by the Catalan parliament a few weeks ago
that has been deemed invalid.

------
627467
Let's see how long this very post-modern independence declaration stays
(mostly) peaceful. If non-violence is maintained, even in the context of the
adversarial positions (unionists VS non-unionists) we may have a situation of
overlapping sovereignties in same (or mostly same) territory.

I disliked the populist and the un-democratic tone set by both sides on this
matter since the referendum, but if this works out peacefully it may set a
precedent for future group sovereignty movements.

Overall, I think this is another nail in the still open coffin of westphalian-
nation-states.

------
jwr
What I do not understand is how the EU can stand by and watch as one of its
member countries limits citizen freedom? Anybody should be able to hold a vote
on anything they like. You should not be able to declare a referendum
"illegal" (it might turn out that the results have no legal standing, but that
doesn't make the vote or the voting itself "illegal").

I am worried that the EU doesn't hold true to its core values.

~~~
djsumdog
This gets into a deeper philosophical conversation of what is _legal_.
Legality is a social construct. After the America civil war, the the
succession of the South was declared illegal.

[http://khanism.org/security/legality/](http://khanism.org/security/legality/)

It was also once legal to own slaves and legal for merchants to deny sales and
service to blacks. Homosexuality was once illegal. If there is enough moral
outrage and enough of the population backing a movement, the legality can
change since it is a pure social construct based the belief of the people.

For example, people in Texas who want a succession movement. It will never
happen because although there are some very loud people for it, less than 2%
of the entire population actually supports such an idea. If it one day changes
to 60% ~ 70% .. or even up to 80%, what's legal at the Federal level simply
won't matter. At that point we'll see the David Graeber argument play out;
namely that States work because of their monopoly on violence.

We see this today when it comes to American states with recreational
cannibals, illegal at the Federal level, yet socially and morally accepted
within the states that have legalized it (Washington, Oregon, California,
Nevada, Colorado, etc.)

Personally, I hope I see Cascadia succeeded in my lifetime. I think that would
be awesome.

~~~
pvaldes
> American states with _recreational cannibals_ , illegal at the Federal
> level, yet socially and morally accepted in Washington, Oregon,
> California...

Wow. You guys are very strange sometimes... XDDD ;)

(Halloween is coming. Yup. Definitely. I can feel it in the air).

------
memracom
The problem is that this independence movement is not really an independence
movement. In the modern world, no political entity can truly be independent.
All are dependent on their neighbors.

True independence became extinct when people stopped living subsistence
agricultural lives.

So the Catalan issue is more about how the EU is structured and whether nation
states are the appropriate level of division for the different territories in
the EU.

Even outside the EU, nation states like Ukraine cannot be independent because
they have too much dependency on Russia, the USA, China, Turkey and so on.

Sovereignty is another question, but confusing it with independence is wrong.

------
davidpelayo
Just in case this converges into normality (if it becomes), how do you think
this could affect to investment of tech startups in Barcelona area?

~~~
pvaldes
Startups should take this question very seriously, if in their future plans
are expecting to sell anything, the tiniest of their products or services, to
the rest of Spaniards.

Tech people working for the regional government to promote the independence of
Catalonia were basically fired a few hours ago by the president Rajoy. They
have a problem now (but are available again).

------
garply
Out of curiosity, does anyone know how this has affected the economy and real
estate market in Barcelona?

~~~
stevoski
So far it is life as usual here.

Since October 1st, 2017, more than 800 companies have moved their official
address to outside of Catalunya. They tend to be larger firms. To be fair, a
few have moved TO Catalunya during that same period.

Tourism bookings are down 20% on this time last year. Tourism is a significant
part of the Catalan economy.

Real estate - too soo to tell. I think real estate prices probably trail
events by some months.

~~~
jayess
Maybe it's time to come visit. :)

------
robrenaud
Yeah, as a native North American English speaker, I will say that the courts
are definitely part of what I understand government to be, and it would be
very confusing to think of the government as only consisting of the
legislature.

~~~
tathougies
You mean as an _American_ (or I guess Mexican) English speaker. All
parliamentary systems (including Canada) do not have an independent judiciary
or executive. The Westminster system is founded on parliamentary sovereignty
-- that is parliament can basically do as it pleases.

------
gooseus
I don't have a lot to contribute to this relatively serious topic and
development in world politics.

What I can contribute, though, is that if you want a fun perspective on the
history surrounding the creation of Spain, then I recommend picking up Europa
Universalis IV next time it's on Steam sale and starting a campaign as either
Castile or Aragon. You can create Spain after you conquer Granada and if you
enter into a royal marriage with your other half.

Game isn't 100% historically accurate, but it's got enough that you may spend
as much time reading wikipedia on various regions, events, people as you do
playing the actual game.

------
descala
You can not just ignore the right of 2M people to self-determination, and that
is exactly what Spain has been doing for many years.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_referendu...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_referendum,_2017)

The "Yes" side won, with 2,044,038 (92.01%) voting for independence and
177,547 (7.99%) voting against, on a turnout of 43.03%

Calls for dialogue and negotiation, which lasted until the very last minute,
failed.

~~~
jknightco
You also can't just ignore the Constitutional rights of the 3M Catalans who
_didn 't_ vote yes and move forward unilaterally with a declaration of
Independence. The Constitution holds the entire government accountable—there
is no "dialog" to be had outside of changing it.

The Catalan Parliament didn't even have the votes to change _their own_
Statutes of Autonomy!

------
fasteo
This was just a rhetoric declaration as they knew that the government would
trigger the 155 article moments after this declaration.

In practical terms, it means nothing. At least nothing for Catalonia as a
region. The Catalonian government, however, will face rebellion charges on
Monday. They can get up to 30 years in prison.

Why did they do this ? No idea. I hope someday we can get to know the
intrahistory of all this.

~~~
gonvaled
Because they feel they have a mandate?

Or said differently, what would you do? You campaigned for it, organized a
referendum, won it and now you do not follow through? What would your voters
say?

~~~
fasteo
>>> Because they feel they have a mandate?

This is basically what they say, but this only appeal the people's emotions,
making them appear as altruist servants of the Catalonian people. Sorry, I am
too old to believe in fairytales. No offense.

~~~
gonvaled
Don"t follow you. Are you are too old to believe in the fairy tale of honestly
implementing your campaign promises, so you prefer the proven method of lying
to the ellectorate?

What honest politicians you old realists aspire to: those in the respectable
business of doing whatever they want to, completely disregarding any promises
made?

I bet you also welcome corruption since, you know, how would anyone believe
in, or even aspire to, the "fairy tale" of uncorruptible polititians!

You are certainly a sensible realist!

~~~
fasteo
>>> I bet you also welcome corruption

Don't be a jerk. You seem to be a clever person. This is not what I meant. And
you know it.

My position in quite simple. I do not believe in politician's altruism. They
are all going to prison and I do no think they are doing it for the Calalonian
people. That's all. Time will tell.

~~~
gonvaled
It's not about altruism. It's about doing what they promised. I do not care
about their hidden motives (they are hidden, by definition, so who the hell
knows what they really want to achieve). I care about politician X doing Y, as
he said in the campaign. People elected him for Y, so if he does it, that's
fine.

Now, you can wonder why people find Y so important, but it's not up to me to
judge them: it is not important for me, but it's important for the majority,
and as such I must respect it.

~~~
fasteo
I just think that Y is a masquerade and the meat is in the hidden motives.

------
microcolonel
If the referendum is illegitimate, why suppress it?

------
cmroanirgo
There is a book, "Homage to Catalonia" by George Orwell. (Yes, the same one
who wrote "1984" which is all about Big Brother). He writes of his times as a
soldier in the Spanish Civil War.

I recommend reading it as there seems to be quite a lot of similarities
between what happened then and what is happening now. Much of the fighting
takes place in Barcelona.

------
__BrianDGLS__
Here is a nice podcast on the history of the matter:
[http://www.historyhitpodcast.com/catalonia-tim-
rees/](http://www.historyhitpodcast.com/catalonia-tim-rees/)

It's worth listening to to get a solid unbiased opinion on what is going on.
In the media and forums like this opinions are often very biased.

------
albertredneck
Spain is different. Spanish regions control big chunks of the public budget
and Spanish parties rule everything. It was a matter of time that the
population of the richest region and its own cultural stuff went nuts because
of their rulers. Spain is broken, has suicided itself with this stupid regime.

------
bitL
That was the last chance for them, right? Interesting times... Rajoy is the
Spanish Cameron.

------
trzmiel4
The problem is not so much about Catalonia and Spain. There are plenty of such
regions and ethnic groups in pretty much every country on the continent. If
the ball starts rolling, it can mean going back a few centuries.

~~~
barrkel
I think a Europe of Regions is exactly where we _should_ be going. The nation
state has had its day; nationalism is a deeply divisive ideology, responsible
for so much war.

The EU acting as a leveller and lowest common denominator between states
weakens the divisions between nation states, deliberately - precisely because
of the dangers of nationalism. And with a weakened nation state, regionalism
is relatively more important.

As for tax, defence, etc.; IMO these will sooner or later migrate to the EU
level. I don't think regionalism is either unexpected or avoidable the way the
EU has been going.

~~~
ensignavenger
How would what you describe be any different from a large European 'nation'?

------
mpermar
People that are raising the red flag of a civil war aren't that far away from
reality, but that would not be a civil war in Spain, but a civil war in
Catalonia.

Catalonian independent politicians representing only a minority of the people
voting have gone way far on their responsibilities and have caused huge damage
to the Catalonian economy with hundreds of mid-large sized companies leaving
their jurisdiction to other regions. It is only needed now that one of these
huge companies closes (e.g. Seat) their factories to cause huge riots within
the region.

Man, so messed up, so many interests. These idiots are playing with the lives
of many people and they do not give a dime about it...

------
MistahKoala
'Declares independence' or 'votes to declare independence'? The article offers
two conflicting explanations of what happened. Does anybody know?

~~~
pfortuny
Nobody knows because they have never expressed their intention clearly (the
most clear statement was the president of the local government saying "I
declare the independence but suspend it for the moment"). So there it goes.

~~~
MistahKoala
Well, quite - ambiguity all the way, so far. That should be reflected in the
coverage, though. It wouldn't be the first time major news organisations have
declared Catalonian independence.

------
mhkhung
"Laws change depending on who's making them. Cardassians one day, Federation
the next – but justice is justice." – Odo, 2369 ("A Man Alone")

How much representation does Catalan has in the central government and high
court?

As Catalan has been operating independently, surely with its own police force
and Catalan people in the army, can the central government force the Catalan
to release power?

------
baxtr
I still don’t understand, which problem independence it’s going to solve for
Catalonian people

~~~
mcjiggerlog
Not having independence?

------
dagaci
Regardless, if 90% of a population wishes to be independent, then they should
be allowed to have that independence as long as both sides are prepared to
adhere to sensible law and order, humane rights and decency.

------
stevefan1999
regarding .cat domain TLD, will they be reclaimed?

------
alvatar
I want to make a very clear claim here, as a Spaniard who lived in Menorca
(one of the so called "Paixos Catalans", what the expansionist independentists
call "their territories"). I used to speak Catalan (or rather, their local
dialect). I was raised there, and I had a lot experiences that well, I think
it's not the point of this.

What I want to say is: many, if not most, Spaniards (non-catalans) do actually
support the idea of holding a referendum, me included. The problem is that
it's constintuationally illegal, and we should have changed the Constitution
for that. And we should have. However, is not that clear who should be allowed
to vote there. The land of the Catalans belongs in theory to all the
Spaniards, in the same way that the rest of the lands of Spain belong to the
Catalans. Who is Catalan is also hard to define, since we all have Spanish
passport. If I live there for 5 years, am I Catalan? Well, considering that a
big majority of catalans do actually have family from other parts of Spain, is
hard to argue there is any kind of pure genetic lineage. In theory, we should
have allowed all Spaniards vote first on holding a referendum or not. And then
also ask "the Catalans" under a clear definition of _who_ is Catalan and has
the exclusive right to vote on the right to rule that land. Perhaps also we
should have voted on different regions, since there are parts that don't want
to be independent, or perhaps just want to be independent of Catalonia
altogether (such is the case of Vall d'Aran).

Many people seems to have a very easy time blaming Spain of being an
authoritarian country, without understanding the depth and complexity of the
problem, or that what a government does doesn't represent what all the people
want. They were not voted in to do this, they were voted because the other
alternatives failed to deliver in many ways in previous mandates. It was a
reactionary voting. There are many people in Spain claiming for referendums.
And also many people in Spain that see the independence of Catalonia the only
way to keep advancing as a country where other less favoured regions could
also prosper.

Honestly, I wish people from other countries would double-check facts and go
deeper in understanding the situation. While I'm very ashamed of what the
police did in the votings, there is a longer story behind all this that has
been sadly summarized by videos and pictures of that violent day. That was a
terrible mistake from a government I don't feel identified with. I'm both
ashamed of Spain and of Catalonia. I whish we knew how to live together. We
are both going to do worse now. We are a fractured society. Both sides. Both
sides lied, both sides manipulated.

Spain is a country of many cultures and languages. We could be an example of
the world. But we are not. No Catalonia is not the only region with historical
differences. Andalusia was the cultural center of Europe in the 10th century.
Euskadi is an industrial powerhorse. Galicia has celtic roots. Canary Islands
is a beautiful mix of Latin American culture, Africa and south Spain. And so
it goes for many other regions.

As a Spaniard, I believe the best course of action is to split the country
(sorry, I still don't buy that Spain conquered Catalonia, that just never
happened, so yes, split a 500-years old country is the accurate definition).

‘I am firmly convinced that Spain is the strongest country of the world.
Century after century trying to destroy herself and still no success’ - Otto
von Bismark

Well, actually maybe is time to try to start all over again. But please, check
all historical facts and try to read both sides of the story. Don't buy that
the Spaniards "are retrograde, old-fashined, stubborn, imperialistic, etc...",
and the Catalans represent all good that happen in Spain, because that's
unfair and untrue.

------
hummel
Spanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia.

1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history
of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent,
it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle
kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain.
There is no

2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but it is illegal to vote for
independence from Spain. The illegality of their vote is supported by the
judicial system, not political.

3) Despite being illegal, the Catalan people mobilized to express their
opinion on 1-O. This was a popular expression, but not a democratic mandate
since the votes were not supported by any international body and were not
conducted in a public or transparent manner. Only 38% of Cataluá citizens
voted, the remaining 62% did not participate in this vote.

4) Catalonia is a very strong autonomous region, with many economic links with
Europe and the rest of Spain. Catalonia wants to receive more money and
contribute less to the whole of Spain, which has led to certain tensions and a
very unsympathetic attitude. Spanish politicians are particularly incompetent
and corrupt, as are Catalan politicians who are accused of various flagrant
corruption processes.

5) Other regions of Spain, such as Pamplona or Euskadi, have more arguments
for independence, but they chose coexistence within the democratic framework.
The government usually negotiates

6) The independentistas have voted secretly, they have not stood up to those
who vote for them. The declaration of independence is temporary and
ineffective. It will not provoke any conversation or dialogue, by the points
expressed above.

7) Spain will apply Article 155, which will replace all the political,
administrative and social structures of Catalonia's autonomy. Catalan
politicians face criminal charges and high treason and will be tried by them.
Independence fighters will argue for love, equality, brotherhood and
happiness, while trying to shield themselves from the European Union and
universal values. The world cannot understand their will, as they have been
executed outside the democratic framework. On the contrary.

8) The republic has been proclaimed to conceal acts of corruption and
incompetence on both sides. the solution is to dissolve the parliament and
call elections. But democratic elections, not using the tools of any banana
republic.

~~~
spankalee
What does the 1000 year history have to do with anything? If the people want
independence now, that's all that matters.

~~~
heavenlyblue
What about the whole of the country subsidising the more wealthy region by
things like brain-drain and leanier taxation?

What would happen if California were to separate from the US? Who would afford
their army? What about billions invested by the whole of US in the industries
there?

By your logic I may just reply that "if the people want independence now -
then all that matters if I have enough military power to keep them in the
saddle". Because the laws are changeable.

~~~
xtreme
> all that matters if I have enough military power to keep them in the saddle

That's pretty much how most declarations of independence have worked
historically. But even if you have enough military power, how much blood are
you willing to shed if a full blown civil war breaks out? If there are
civilian deaths, it's likely that there would be condemnation and support for
the separatists from the international community. What matters is how badly
people want their independence and how far they are willing to go for it.

~~~
heavenlyblue
Please see the parent comment. My opinion here is in regards to "what matters
to what happened 1000 years ago? what matters is what they want now!" \- by
making a point that what happened years ago does indeed have some value.

------
antaviana
It's been a bit of bad luck what happened. On the Spanish side, the party at
the Government did not have enough votes to freely apply their own policies.
By helping provoke a polarizing crisis, they hugely improve their chances for
an absolute majority to improve their power position should there be an
election in Spain. Had they negotiated with Catalan Government, their future
chances for a huge win would be a lot lower.

On the Catalan side, there was not enough votes to morally claim for
independence. By provoking a polarizing crisis, they hope to greatly improve
their future chances for an absolute majority that helps legitimate their
position.

In short, both parties ruling on both sides believe that they benefit greatly
from confrontation so trying to reach agreements is pretty much out of the
question, marketing is all that matters.

~~~
narag
_In short, both parties ruling on both sides believe that they benefit greatly
from confrontation_

No, that's wrong. The reason we have the current clusterf __* in place has
been the conflict-avoiding actitude of 40 years of spanish governments.

We have a proportional voting systems and regional parties have been the
"hinge", the small parties that helped ruling parties to reach absolute
majority, in national parliament. This allowed them to get away with actually
enjoying unfair privileges over the rest of the country and advancing the
regionalist agenda.

Did you know you can't have your children study in Spanish in Spain? Even with
several Supreme Court and "supremer" _Tribunal Constitutional_ rulings backing
you. Regional government refused to apply the sentences and national
government did _nothing_ to force their hands. Public schools have been
instrumental to what we have today in the streets. I'm surprised that half the
population has resisted 40 years of brainwash, makes me keep my faith in
Humanity.

If the article 155 had been applied months, years ago, when the first farce of
referendum took place, or even a week before the vote simulation, we had not
needed to see the bs that we see in the news everyday.

~~~
justin66
> Did you know you can't have your children study in Spanish in Spain?

This isn't particularly unusual, it basically works that way in Quebec, unless
you use a private school. Unlike Quebec, aren't Catalans almost all bilingual
anyhow?

~~~
narag
They're now.

------
adekok
FTA _The Catalan government said that of the 43% of potential voters who took
part in the referendum, 90% were in favour of independence._

In a referendum where people who wanted to vote "no" didn't show up, because
of fears of violence.

This just isn't a reflection of the will of the population.

~~~
empath75
I don't have a strong position one way or the other, but it seems to me that
the Spanish government completely botched their response to the referendum by
trying to get by with a raw power play which basically guaranteed that the
referendum would pass (which by no means was guaranteed had the referendum but
allowed to proceed without interference), leaving Spain with no choice but to
use force. Now Catalonia has called their bluff.

Spain is going to be left with the choice between letting Catalonia go or
attempting to use force to keep them in the state. I don't think Spain is
prepared to fight a civil war over this, personally, nor should it. Let them
go, keep them in the EU, keep the borders open.

With the EU there, it seems like breakups like this don't need to go any worse
than splitting up North and South Carolina, for example.

~~~
sametmax
That's the funny thing with the situation. Both sides screw up so bad there is
literally no-one to support here. Whatever comment you make in favor for one
will be immediately counter by comments that are equally reasonable for the
other one.

~~~
icebraining
Well, if you were the Catalonian government and you wanted to push for
independence, what would you do instead? Or are you saying that pushing for
independence itself is a screw up?

~~~
sametmax
As usual people are missing part of the story. Both side screw up. BOTH.

E.G: there is a strong racism culture among Catalonia independentists, even
against other Spaniards. They even invented part of their cultural heritage to
sound more credible (look up their "ancestral cultural dance" origin, it is
kinda funny). If you want your independence, not alianating the rest of your
neighbors for decades can be a good start.

Those events are never unfolding in an instant, but are the consequences of
years of complex shenanigans.

~~~
icebraining
I'm not saying it's a good thing, but is there any reason at all to believe
that the rest of Spain would have allowed the referendum if only Catalonia had
been very nice to everyone else? Seems like an excuse to me.

~~~
sametmax
That's assuming a side already.

Again, nobody is right here. They bkth screw up in many ways.

------
Numberwang
This will end badly...

~~~
icebraining
Eh, I think it depends. If the Spanish government now takes over the
Catalonian government and schedules new elections, and the anti⁻independence
parties win by a reasonable margin, it may deflate the whole thing.

If there's actual major popular support for independence, then yeah, I don't
see how the Spanish government can defuse that grenade without major
concessions, which I don't see Rajoy accepting, so it could get _very_ messy.

(Don't take my opinion very seriously, though; while I have close ties to
Spain I don't have any particular knowledge about this situation)

~~~
pbhjpbhj
If Catalonia somehow cedes from Spain/EC then there will probably be
repercussions around Europe.

I was extremely surprised the other day to see a Welsh person who I'm
acquainted with calling for civil war against the English. I sincerely hope
there are not enough with such madness to make any thing viable in that
respect, but the do seem to be substantial communities in other regions of the
EC where things could kick off too.

------
Boothroid
I guess Spain is hoping that power still comes from the barrel of a gun,
judging by the violence employed on referendum day - but interested to see
what the hell Spain thinks it can do if the whole of Catalonia goes on strike.
I guess it's a battle of wills now. How much of the population of Catalonia
really want independence, and what sacrifices are they willing to make to get
it?

~~~
ellius
So I am not following this especially closely, but my understanding is that
the vote represented a minority of the population and was done outside of
legal channels. Your last question is really the most pertinent issue as far
as what happens next—does the citizenry really care about this, and deeply? Or
is it more of a power play drummed up by local political leaders?

~~~
matthewmacleod
It was done “outside of legal channels” in the sense that it’s not possible to
do it “within legal channels”.

I have no particular view on the outcome of this, but the fact that upwards of
half a million protestors turned out in Barcelona suggests that it’s an
important issue.

~~~
ddalex
> outside of legal channels

My understanding is that the polls were not universal, but only ran in the
Catalonia areas with strong support for independence. And there was no vote
security and verification, in fact, people were encouraged to vote multiple
times in the same referendum.

So the referendum could not be construed as legal.

------
kgwgk
Mostly they have declared independence from reality.

------
alva
When can we start blaming Putin?

------
mixmastamyk
Any government that states, “voting is illegal” should be abolished IMO.

