
Office noise bothers some people more than others - nkc420
https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20191115-office-noise-acceptable-levels-personality-type
======
navs
I currently work for a startup and all three of us are hotdesking. We're
constantly moved to new spaces in the hotdesking space because a new company
is leaving/moving in. I've sat beside recruiters, property managers and
salespeople.

There's no "quiet" room. The meeting rooms cost a few hundred and need to be
pre-booked. My home environment isn't a quiet refuge either. Beside a busy
street, more flatmates than their should be and a room beside the kitchen
which is used late in the night.

The only quiet I can wrangle is a few hours at a local library on weekends
before the kids come in for the reading and writing sessions.

The noise has gotten bad enough that I'm considering quitting my job and
running away to a small town.

Yes, you can use noise cancelling headphones but:

1\. They're uncomfortable for long periods

2\. They don't really block all the noise and you live in anxiety waiting for
that one blaring ringtone to squeeze through

3\. I find it difficult to concentrate with them on. It feels like a heavy,
constricting object squeezing my temples.

No solutions, just a rant.

EDIT: Thinking about it some more on the transit to work this morning. I
believe the constant battering to my senses has made me more irritable. I tend
to avoid my flatmates and reply with dismissive grunts and hand waves. Ditto
for people in the shared space. Small things upset me even more. A failed
build pipeline or a new Jira request will infuriate me. I've been countering
this with more breaks from the screen to take walks around the office block.

~~~
BurningFrog
DISCLAIMER: I'm not saying this to be a jerk. This is not uncommon.

There is a fair chance that your core annoyance is something else.

That is, if you somehow got a perfectly sounds proofed workroom of your own,
you would after a while realize that you're _still_ irritable, find it
difficult to concentrate etc.

Often, we don't want to face our real problems and assign discomfort to some
external thing we have no power over. "If only X was gone, I'd be happy". But
when X disappears little changes.

~~~
mratzloff
So, to be clear, your suggestion is—having no personal space, no quiet area, a
constantly shifting work environment, for what is presumably a programming
profession in a field dominated by introverts, and the poster stating this is
a problem to the extent that escape seems a viable alternative—that the source
of his or her stress is some unmentioned, unrelated personal problem.

~~~
BurningFrog
I'm suggesting it's _a possibility_ worth considering.

Since he's also permanently annoyed outside work, non work factors fit the
data.

------
jackhack
There are two mutually exclusive groups of people: "Concentrators(1)" and
"Communicators(2)". Concentrators must have conditions that allow one to form
and hold complex ideas, and act upon them. This is almost always some degree
of a quiet environment, without visual or auditory distractions. the opposite
of the ideal conditions of Communicators. Communicators must interact with
others to do their job.

(1) Typical of this group: mathematician, engineer, scientist, writer (2)
project managers, C-class executives, sales, support

It is as unfair to ask a Concentrator to work in a noisy environment as it is
unfair to ask a Communicator to work in silence. However, if one puts both in
an environment together (which is often the case) the Ccommunicator always
"wins" by suppressing the Concentrator's ability to work through the mere act
of performing their duties.

~~~
chadash
Counterpoint: John von Neumann, arguably one of the greatest mathematicians of
all time, claimed to do some of his best work in front of the TV. In my
personal experience, I know plenty of engineers who don't mind noise. I think
it's a personal thing more than anything and it's hard to generalize.

~~~
hcarvalhoalves
A TV is not calling you to chat every 15 minutes, or even talking anything
important work-related to distract your focus. It's just noise, the same as
working listening to music.

~~~
dijit
An aside, but an important distinction is that a TV is definitely not
something that is going to interact with you, it's just background, it will
not change it's behaviour without specific defined inputs (remote control); It
cannot affect you either except for the changing of light in the room and it's
fully controllable without impacting anyone else.

It's the difference between sitting next to a busker in the street for 8hrs
per day and listening to recorded music on your phone.. in that it's a _huge_
difference.

------
SoylentOrange
During my first internship when I was 20, I worked for a summer at a medium-
sized packaging company to improve their aging order-handling software.
Because the floor managers were on the warehouse floor almost the entire day,
I took over one of their offices. That summer, I had my own office and it was
incredible.

Since then, I have worked in cubicles or desks in open-plan offices.

Now, almost 10 years later, as a (small) team lead at a relatively prestigious
company, I realize that I may never have my own office again in my
professional career. This thought is oddly depressing.

When I really need to concentrate on a task, I take a portion of the morning
and do the task at home, in my home office. I am very aware this is not
something most people can do (both because I have the authority to just not
come in on a given morning, and because I can afford to have a home office in
my own home which is mostly silent). Many on my team do the same thing,
possibly accepting that the office is a fundamentally distracting environment.
I worry what effects this may have on younger team members who don't have
access to a home office.

I do see the benefits of open-plan offices (for one, being at work feels less
alienating), but I think we may have lost something important in the
transition.

------
dwringer
I've never particularly minded general office noises of the kind that can be
cancelled out easily, but what gets me is when coworkers start to become
stressed and physically vent this in a way that makes noise - particularly
when I can hear a mouse click getting louder and more violent, echoing off
every surface in the office. Somehow my brain interprets this as an attack
(evoking a fight-or-flight response that others have mentioned here) even
though I highly doubt it's conscious at all on their part.

The other type of noise that really affects my ability to concentrate is loud
whistling that people will sometimes do as they walk down the halls, again
reflecting off all the surfaces in the office, which my brain seems to
involuntarily interpret as "Hey! Hey! Hey, hey look! Hey!" and constantly
resets my focus as though someone had just tapped me on the shoulder every few
seconds.

When I'm not trying to concentrate hard on something I tend not to be bothered
by even these noises - but when working it can feel almost like being
physically harassed. I suppose this is a form of misophonia, but it is
extremely context-dependent and at other times I _enjoy_ the diversity of
sounds (including the whistling).

~~~
jsinai
> particularly when I hear a mouse click getting louder and more violent.

What really gets to me is loud and furious typing. Otherwise most office noise
doesn’t bother me. But that’s mostly because I’m surrounded by colleagues who
I get along with.

~~~
readme
Then get a mechanical keyboard and type louder. That's how you assert
dominance.

~~~
baroffoos
I hammer away at a cherry blue keyboard at work. No one has complained so far
but I suspect it is because I have been here for longer than them.

~~~
dijit
It's actually a worry of mine that I'm very annoying to those around me in my
open office and people are too polite or see me as too intimidating to say
anything about it.

I can either be the asshole who doesn't care, and subsequently be freed from
my anxiety, or live in anxiety but at least not be as much of an asshole.

~~~
jdnenej
If sound was an issue then the business shouldn't have made an open Office
design.

~~~
dijit
Sound is one of those “incalculable” issues that, because it’s very intangible
how it affects people it is subsequently difficult to put a dollar amount to
fixing.

------
hnick
I'm definitely sensitive to noises and am a stereotypical introvert.

One thing they didn't mention that gets me is not related to noise. It's
privacy. I have an extremely strong innate need for privacy and I'm not sure
where that comes from. I never liked sharing personal details or preferences
(like favourite bands), and the idea of someone watching me work just makes me
uneasy.

It's not even a fear of being caught out avoiding work. I'll happily sit there
and read HN in full sight. It's just off-putting and distracting and makes it
hard to do real work so anything that takes my attention away will win.

My current workplace has low-walled shared cubicles which is at least better
than the big no-barrier desks I see at startups. Barely.

~~~
john-radio
I have this quality too and I'm surprised it isn't more common. Maybe people
don't like to talk about it because we're worried people will think that we
have something to hide.

I don't even like to have conversations about more-than-superficial topics in
crowded places. If a restaurant seats me across the table from my dining
partner but elbow-to-elbow with random other diners at parallel tables, I will
hate it and never return.

~~~
hnick
You just made me realise that it might be related to why I like to sit on the
same side of the table as my wife when going out (apart from easier food-
sharing).

I think there's this interplay between privacy and intimacy. I don't want to
give too much to strangers but want to get close when I decide to.

------
PeterStuer
The disturbance of sound is the invasiveness it has on your sphere of control.
It forces your control of your present attention to be taken away from you
against your will by others.

This is why you might like the 'noise' produced by you voluntarily as in e.g.
playing a 'busy office noise ambience' from YouTube through your headphones or
speakers , while hating the 'real' office noises around you or even the same
track played by your coworker.

------
mrandish
I work at home in a very quiet neighborhood with excellent sound insulation
and a silent PC. My home office is very, very quiet. I consider this a great
luxury of life well-lived.

Then someone bought the empty lot next door and started building a house. I
ordered these 3M X5A earmuffs for $30. They are remarkably effective and
proved to be a terrific investment.

[https://smile.amazon.com/3M-Peltor-Over-
Earmuffs-X5A/dp/B00C...](https://smile.amazon.com/3M-Peltor-Over-
Earmuffs-X5A/dp/B00CPCHBCQ)

~~~
iscrewyou
I recently start working in an office that has a constant ventilation noise
right above my head. I use a pair of headphones that are pretty good and I
sometimes use those with no music to block out the noise. You’ve just given me
a great advice. Thank you!

Do you have a recommendation for headphones with similar usage? Mine are about
to go out (left headset) and I know I’ll be in a need of new ones soon.

~~~
mrandish
There are generally three ways to suppress noise:

1\. Noise masking - covering the external sound with another sound.

2\. Noise blocking - sealing the ears so the external sound doesn't get
through.

3\. Noise canceling - active noise canceling technology which listens to
external sound with a microphone and adds an inverted waveform to cancel it.

I use all three and they all work depending on the scenario and my preferences
at the moment. The most effective noise-masking type is in-ear buds because
they also provide noise blocking. I have an earlier version similar to these
[https://smile.amazon.com/Etymotic-Research-Noise-
Isolating-E...](https://smile.amazon.com/Etymotic-Research-Noise-Isolating-
Earphones-Microphone/dp/B003YTROIU). They are very effective and provide great
sound. However, noise masking is usually only a shorter-duration option for me
if I'm trying to work or otherwise focus because sounds tend to distract me
even if it's ambient music I like or white/pink noise. Thus, trading an
uncontrolled soundscape for a controlled one isn't always ideal for me. Some
people also find in-ear styles less comfortable due to inserting in the ear
canal.

For noise-blocking I use the X5A over-ear muffs that I linked above when at my
home office desk. The upsides are high effectiveness and they come on and off
quickly compared to in-ear plugs. Downsides are that they are too bulky to
travel and over longer periods the clamping pressure can on occasion grow
slightly fatiguing. This can be mitigated by bending the joining U-arm that
goes over the top to stretch it a bit wider, possibly at the cost of slightly
less noise-blocking. Long-duration comfort will depend on your particular ear
and head shape but they work well for me. A general downside of over-ear style
muffs is they can get in the way when sleeping if you're a side-sleeper.

When away from my desk I use foam in-ear plugs for noise-blocking because they
are small and light. The biggest downside is that they take a bit of time to
"install" properly for full effectiveness. They need to be compressed into a
smaller tube shape by rolling them tightly between the fingers and then
quickly inserted _deep_ into the ear canal. Once in place they will slowly re-
expand blocking external sound very effectively. If they are inserted
properly, they can take a bit of time and care to remove. This is because they
can create an air-tight vacuum seal in the ear canal and yanking them out
quickly can be unpleasant.

I've tried many different brands of foam in-ears and these are the highest-
rated for noise reduction (NRR 33)
[https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IL9MRLC](https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IL9MRLC).
They are also comfortable for me but this will vary by person. My wife has
smaller or more sensitive ear canals and prefers smaller in-ear plugs. That
link has several sub-types and I keep a pair of both the plain and the corded
type in my backpack when on the go. The plain type is good for sleeping
whether on an airplane or when I check into a hotel at 3a and the last room
they have sounds like it's inches from a highway, railyard, rock concert or
airport runway. The corded type is easier/quicker to remove because they have
the cord to pull on but the downside is the cord can occasionally conduct a
bit of noise via vibration into the ear when it brushes against things. This
style also has the benefit of the bright blue cord providing a visual cue to
others that I have something in my ears and may not hear them if they talk to
me. This is good when I'm in an open environment, coffee shop or restaurant.
Unlike over-ears, in-ears also give me the flexibility to vary the amount of
noise reduction by changing how deeply I seat them.

Finally, there are the active noise canceling variety. This type is especially
well-suited for environments with constant background noise that's not overly
loud, for example, airplane engines and office hubbub. I find them somewhat
less effective at reducing loud primary sources like a person talking loudly
next to you. They still will reduce the noise substantially but usually not
eliminate it. Often the combination of ambient music, soundscapes or pink
noise on low volume plus the active noise canceling is sufficient but not
always. I have these [https://smile.amazon.com/Bose-718840-0010-QuietComfort-
Cance...](https://smile.amazon.com/Bose-718840-0010-QuietComfort-Cancelling-
Headphones/dp/B00X9KVVQK) and they work extraordinarily well. Downsides are
that they are wired and have a small battery at the plug end of the cord. This
is because active noise canceling requires constant DSP cycles and is thus
power-hungry.

I haven't yet added wireless earbuds with active noise canceling (ANC) to my
options. As of today, these tend to either have shorter battery life, less
effective ANC or be high-cost. This is an example of good but expensive
[https://smile.amazon.com/Sony-WF-1000XM3-Industry-
Canceling-...](https://smile.amazon.com/Sony-WF-1000XM3-Industry-Canceling-
Wireless/dp/B07T81554H). I think the wireless ANC tech is still evolving too
quickly to sink a lot of money in a pair. Also, I've previously misplaced a
pair of cheap wireless earbuds which makes me more cautious. The MediaTek
chipset that Sony uses is new and quite powerful but, fortunately, starting to
be offered to other manufacturers (under MediaTek subsidiary's name) so I
expect next year we'll see some of the well-regarded Chi-Fi vendors with
sub-$100 options. I do have cheap (~$40) Chi-Fi wireless earbuds (non-ANC)
that have excellent quality when external noise reduction isn't a priority.

In case you're not aware, there are also specialty earplugs designed to
attenuate certain frequencies more than others. These are targeted primarily
at performing musicians and concert-goers and often marketed under the term
"Acoustic Filters"
[https://smile.amazon.com/s?k="acoustic+filters"](https://smile.amazon.com/s?k="acoustic+filters").
These were previously quite expensive and could involve custom-fitted molds
but prices have come down recently. I highly recommend using these when at
concerts or clubs. Hearing loss sucks and is easily mitigated.

Hope that helps.

~~~
anotherwebdev
I think that the Etymotic earpieces are the best for 1 and 2. Haven't tried
ANC yet but Etymotic's noise isolation is equal or maybe slightly less than
X5A or 3M's foam earplugs.

Add a very gentle 30db pink noise with Etymotic and I don't hear 99% of the
noises.

Best protection so far - X5A along with Etymotic under them and pink noise
playing.

I want to try some ANC pairs but they're quite expensive and I've read it only
works for constant noises. Do they work in an office/coworking environment
with people chatting everywhere?

------
734129837261
My biggest triggers are people who eat crunchy food with open mouths; people
who slurp their drinks; people who are oblivious to their environment and sing
loudly in open offices.

Colleagues next to me eating hard carrots, chips, anything crunchy. Or Chinese
expats who slurp their soup and coffee (normal in their culture; rude in
mine)... it drove me crazy.

The singing one drove me insane at my last job. An office lady walked around
the office, she would loudly and falsely be singing nonsense like: "LALALALA
POMPOM PIEWPIEW LALA" (verbatim) and sometimes fragments from pop songs, in
her broken English: "I CAN'T GET NO SASIFICTION LALAPOMPOM".

I wanted to murder her. No joke. If I could get away with it, I would have.
The anger was physical and deep. Rage and disgust was the feeling, and I felt
personally attacked. It felt like a "fight or flee" instinct, where I'd prefer
to fight.

Many angry looks thrown at her (not just from me!) didn't make any difference.
She must've felt like she was a rock star or something.

On my last day in the office I mentioned her to the rest of the office. Turns
out everyone was annoyed by her. Nobody spoke up.

I have misophonia. The hospital close to my home in Amsterdam did a lot of
scientific research into it. And nowadays I work from home, fully remote, as a
software engineer. Life is good.

~~~
tzs
We had a guy who narrated whatever he was doing, in third person. Let's call
him Bob. Suppose Bob needed to FTP a file from a server, print it, staple the
pages together, and then give it to me.

During this entire process, Bob would talk, saying something like this:

> Bob is starting the FTP program. Bob is typing his name and password. Bob is
> starting the file transfer. Bob's exiting. Bob is selecting the file and
> printing it. Bob is selecting two sided printing. Bob has sent the file to
> the printer. Now Bob is walking to the printer. Bob is picking up the
> sheets. Bob is looking for a stapler. Bob found it, and is stapling the
> sheets. Bob is walking to tzs' desk. Bob's handing the printout to tzs.

~~~
neverartful
If they ever have a sequel to Office Space, this could be a funny addition.

~~~
lozenge
Nah, it would be too unbelievable.

------
lmiller1990
A lot of people (in this thread, CEO of my company) say "just wear
headphones". Noise should be opt in; not opt out. Recently all of marketing
went to a conference for a few days; the difference in the quality and
quantity of work done was noticeable...

~~~
baot
>Noise should be opt in; not opt out.

That's a great way of putting it.

One of my pet peeves is along a similar line. I have a quiet voice. When I was
younger, I had a quieter voice. The change happened because people were happy
to ask me to repeat myself or, in a more blunt way, that I need to speak up.
That's fine, it's my problem, it's me failing to communicate properly, and
I've learned to be loud enough most of the time because of it.

But it doesn't happen the other way. It's not 'OK' to tell someone they talk
too loudly. You can try, and they may temporarily adjust (while, actually,
thinking it's your problem) but they won't change their voice for good, like I
had to.

If it's a failure of communication for me to be heard by the person stood next
to me, it should also be a failure for a person talking to someone at the same
distance if I can hear them on the other side of a busy office or a train
carriage. And if someone has a bassy vocal fry that penetrates walls, they
should raise their pitch. I don't want to have to opt out of their
conversation and, if I do, I have to be confrontational.

~~~
ben509
You have to pick your battles.

I've found I can politely request that people not have meetings standing three
feet from me, and I can generally get people to not yell across the entire
room.

But every now and then this womans let off her ear-shattering "AHHH
HUHUHUHUHUHUHUHUHUH" laugh and not once has my muse inspired me with words
that would convey a gentle, face-saving admonishment.

It's ultimately because she's laughing. Her laugh sounds like someone
torturing a seal with a jackhammer, but my company policy is that it's a fun
place to work. And that means people get loud, and if I don't like it, I can
look for work elsewhere.

------
zabzonk
People put with noise far more than they have to. Here are a few of my
experiences:

\- moved into an office where a very noisy dot-matrix printer printed out
every opening and closing of a door in the building. Nobody ever looked at the
printouts. I unplugged it and put it in a dumpster. Nobody ever complained.

\- working for an oil company, my boss was sitting next to a big HP plotter
that was horribly noisy - he wore industrial-strength hearing protectors all
the time, which didn't help if you wanted to phone him. I suggested that
moving the plotter would be a good idea (there were lots of places to put it),
but as usual with engineering companies, a sensible solution is not top of the
list.

\- howling air conditioning - that place I left after a couple of weeks.

Bottom line, there is no way you have to put up with noise - stand up for
yourselves and just say "no".

~~~
brailsafe
My biggest hurdle—aside from undocumented code—at my new company, is fucking
mouth noises from coworkers and the sound of crumpling snack bags in an open
office. It's to the extent where I have to leave the area and regain composure
before mentioning it. If I can't find a way to manage, I'll leave, but I'm not
in the financial position to have that luxury yet. What will probably happen,
is I'll work up to a slow competency with their codebase, and they'll fire me
before I get to quit. Optimistically I'll find a way to cope, either by
dampening the noise or leaving the office for a coffee shop; something I've
started doing.

~~~
drhodes
When noise gets bad for me, I put in foam ear plugs, wear large headphones and
use the following command to summon a pleasant oasis somewhere under a
tropical waterfall far from the misophonic hell.

alias noise='play -n synth brownnoise synth pinknoise mix synth sine amod 0.02
80'

~~~
Sandvich
What does the play command come from?

~~~
drhodes
it's included with sox

[http://sox.sourceforge.net/Main/HomePage](http://sox.sourceforge.net/Main/HomePage)

------
DoofusOfDeath
One compounding problem is that (in my experience) we haven't worked out
socially acceptable ways to negotiate noise levels in offices.

I.e., it's not always clear what the standard is that everybody is expected to
meet, and there's no risk-free way of asking somebody to be quieter.

And so, in addition to anger at the noise itself, we also have a recipe for
simmering resentment and impotent rage.

~~~
derekbreden
At one previous job, during a 1:1, boss was pressing for anything I would
change about the job, anything that could be improved. I had said no nothing
several times, and so I replied in what I hoped would be understood as jest,
“I guess Billy’s gum chewing”.

“Have you talked to him about it?” “It’s really not a problem” “Well I could
sit you farther away from him, but we don’t have any open desks on this side
of the office, do you want to sit on the other side by yourself?” “I didn’t
mean that, I’d rather keep my desk.” “Well I don’t know what you expect me to
do about it.”

“Well that went downhill fast.” - I did not say out loud.

I got the vibe I wasn’t the first to bring it up, and perhaps others had been
less ambivalent towards the interruption.

I like my dead pan delivery of ridiculous statements. I had not considered the
ramifications of that one being taken seriously, nor that it might be.

------
bryanrasmussen
The only time noise really bothers me is when I am trying to debug something
that seems like it should be really simple but nonetheless keeps not doing
what I expect it to. Once it goes over a couple hours I start to turn into a
madman, and there has to be quiet.

On the other hand if I'm debugging something that should be problematic I
don't notice the noise much, for any normal programming task as long as you
don't interrupt me directly I can concentrate just fine. I even like it sort
of noisy.

~~~
beaker52
From observations of myself, I think this behaviour is compelled by a
childlike grasping at control of some trivial external aspect of my experience
to make up for my inability to control the bug I'm working on, for example.

~~~
usrusr
Similar experience: I usually don't mind the noises, even when the mental
stack is close to maximum capacity, but only while I'm on a good trajectory
towards finding a solution. When the trajectory degrades into running in
circles, suddenly everything louder than breathing becomes infuriating.

I'd describe it slightly different than lack of control, even if it's
essentially the same: the noise is something to blame for the lack of progress
so the helpless mind will blame it a lot. It's also an outlet for that tiny
amount of anger about the failure, anger that would otherwise just fuel more
focus, and then that anger itself becomes the main distraction, creating a
leveraged effect much bigger than the noise itself. Today I had to silence a
broken door before I could eventually beat that bug, didn't even feel much
different than introducing the appropriate instrumentations in the view...

(about headphones, I used to do that when noticing first signs of that running
in circles noise sensitivity, but now I absolutely can't be bothered to
sacrifice my hearing to make up for the deficiencies of the workplace provided
by my employer)

------
liquidise
I'm a data point that favors surrounding noise. For years, my most
productivity-dense time of the week is when i bring my laptop to a local
sports bar for prime time NFL games. Something about the consistent noise,
available momentary distractions and wandering eyes keeps me on-task and
cradled in thought in a way no office (home or formal) does.

~~~
hinkley
I think you've got some cocktail party effect going on there.

Conversely, one of the most distracting things for me is barely hearing people
talking. My brain keeps trying to interpret the murmuring as words before it
can reject it.

~~~
reificator
> _Conversely, one of the most distracting things for me is barely hearing
> people talking. My brain keeps trying to interpret the murmuring as words
> before it can reject it._

Same! My family loves calling each other on speakerphone. Asking however
politely and considerately for them to use a headset or hold the phone is a
mortal sin.

Coincidentally, when I moved out on my own, my ability to focus suddenly shot
through the roof. Like putting on glasses for the first time when you're
nearsighted.

Going back home I don't lose that sense of focus. Until the phone calls start
again...

------
nkrisc
Constant coughing and throat clearing _drive me up the wall_. I despise
working around most smokers as many of them have this unconscious, horrid
smoker's cough that they do a few times a minute on average, it seems (I
haven't actually counted). But any constant throat clearing sets me off and I
usually have to leave or I can't focus on anything.

The type of throat clearing I'm talking about is when someone really just
needs a good, deep cough but for whatever reason they won't, and are
constantly doing this "Ah-hmmmm" sound. Once doesn't bother me. Every 30
seconds is maddening.

More generally, I think this can be extrapolated to frequently recurring
sounds with unpredictable intervals.

~~~
t34543
I can’t stand mastication noise. I must leave the area or drown it out, block
any visible signs of eating, and take a few deep breaths.

~~~
leetrout
Do you identify as someone that has misophonia?

~~~
t34543
Yes.

------
acd
I think that the open plan office trend is stupid. It is not good for
productivity and it is not good for noise.

People collaborate less in open plan offices compared to traditional private
offices. Yet open plan offices are promoted as strengthening cooperation.

~~~
fyfy18
I don't even believe the argument of open offices being more space efficient
is true.

I work in a co-working space with an open office section (fortunately there is
a written rule that you must be silent), and surrounded by offices that sit 3
- 6 people. The offices have the same density as the open section - they are
just separated by glass walls and a door.

------
izzydata
As someone with misophonia I wear noise canceling headphones at all times at
work. Somehow my office mates are constantly eating, sniffling, grunting,
coughing or loudly talking.

At least I can block out most of that with music, but I'd really like to be
capable of interacting with my co-workers more naturally.

I have to get up and walk away on my own a lot to make sure I don't snap.
Wearing headphones 24/7 also makes my head sore and often gives me headaches.

------
mirimir
Lack of privacy also complicates work relationships.

I've never worked in open-plan offices. But cube farms are bad enough. One of
my coworkers was going through a messy divorce. And spent time on the phone
arguing loudly with his wife. And talking with his attorney.

I ended up knowing too much about his situation. And I sympathized with his
wife. So it became problematic to work effectively with him.

------
Starkus
I have misophonia, I get extreme anger in the office if someone starts
chomping with their mouths open out of nowhere.

Also the two older dudes near me always have their phones dinging, like when
any notification comes to their phone, im close to insanity about it

~~~
matwood
> always have their phones dinging, like when any notification comes to their
> phone, im close to insanity about it

I don’t mind office noise, but this drives me nuts. Their phone is on their
person, turn on vibrate already.

~~~
Starkus
I want to ask them to stop, but its one of those things i really feel that
others should really know its rude and affects others. I'll get the excuse
that they can't miss the notification, though, put the damn thing on vibrate!

------
sneak
After living in Europe for some years now, I find whenever I am back in the
US, it is really irritating (not misophonia-level, more just a "what the fuck
are you thinking") how unnecessarily _loud_ everyone seems to be by default in
the US. Seems common that people are speaking easily twice as loud as is
necessary to accomplish the communication required.

Lower your voice.

~~~
hollerith
Where in the US have you noticed this unnecessary loudness? (I'm guessing not
in Minnesota.)

~~~
sneak
Restaurants and bars and public spaces (for example, the doctor’s office this
morning) across the USA. California, PNW, Chicago, Detroit, New York, Philly.

No real sample data from MN or the deep south, as yet.

------
purplezooey
Foam ear plugs? Headphones? If you employees have to pull that just to get
some quiet time to hear themselves think, something is wrong with your office.
When can we go back to walls and thick oak doors... don't worry, we'll still
have slack and email and Twitter and...

------
tvanantwerp
I'll frequently wear my noise cancelling headphones at work without even
playing anything, just to damped the ambient noise. Noises distract and
startle me easily.

------
jcims
One thing that hasn't been mentioned a whole lot is how bad it is to have a
phone conference in these environments. Our brains are incredibly good at
localizing and filtering environmental sounds, but when everything is piped
through a handset or headset, it becomes an undifferentiated cacophony. Short
calls are fine, but if you're on for an hour trying to work an issue it can
become infuriating.

------
mumblemumble
A product recommendation, for those looking to deal with office noise:

I've found that the earbuds that Etymotic makes are _far_ superior to anything
I've tried with active noise canceling. They're less expensive, they don't
require batteries, they're more portable, the audio quality is better, they
don't have that "stifling" feeling, they're a LOT more effective, and, best of
all, you can control the level of noise damping by adjusting the fit. With
mine (the MK5's), I find I can adjust them anywhere from "foam earplugs"
levels of sound dampening to "can't hear someone trying to talk to me in a
normal tone of voice." (Yes, really.) Half the time I'm wearing them, I'm not
even listening to music, because there's no need, and I'm one of those people
who finds that, productivity-wise, silence really is golden.

Since getting them, my Bose headphones that cost 5 times as much have just
been gathering dust.

~~~
spaceandshit
Which Etymotic product in particular?

~~~
grzm
Your parent mentioned the MK5s. Etymotic prides themselves in pretty flat
response overall, with some slight variation in different lines. I've had a
couple of different versions of the ER-4 (ER-4PT, ER-4XR) and have been happy
with them. I think the primary thing is whether you're comfortable with the
form factor, and for that you can just pick up a pair of the ear plugs for
less than $20. If you're happy with how they fit, the particular model of
headphones you pick depends more on how much you're willing to pay.

------
Jaruzel
> [https://www.bbc.com/worklife/](https://www.bbc.com/worklife/)

According to their Twitter account, 'BBC Worklife' has been around since 2013.
I read the BBC a lot, but have never come across it before - this is another
example of how un-discoverable most of the BBCs online content is :(

------
coupdejarnac
I see no mention of genetic predisposition to hating office noise. 23andme
looks for a marker that indicates hating the sound of chewing, misophonia.
Maybe something similar is at play for other noises.

~~~
isoskeles
I have a hatred of the sound of any marker dragging against (non-glossy)
paper. It's torturous to me, makes me physically cringe and grind my teeth
when I hear the noise. And conversely, marker-against-glossy-paper is a very
pleasing sound to me.

Now I'm wondering if that's genetic and how many other people have the same
experience with those sounds.

~~~
tombert
I thought I was the only one! I think it's _impossible_ for me not to wince
when hearing the noise of a marker against regular paper, and I also really
hate the sound of pieces of paper rubbing together.

------
rajangdavis
I used to work in a call center doing analytics/development work and I found
that loud noise wasn't the issue but rather hearing dozens of conversations at
the same time, each with their own rhythm and pitch. It sounded like literal
cacophony to my ears.

I would put on noise cancelling head phones and blast music which helped, but
headphones can be uncomfortable and more often than not, you want to be able
to think in a quiet environment.

After everyone left, I would be massively productive in complete silence.

However, when I was later moved to a quieter area, what would be massively
distracting was the sound of people walking by lightly breaking the silence.
The only way I could avoid being distracted by these events was to put on
headphones and blast music.

------
yla92
I am curious about this. Do people who work in the open plan office, feel
bothered by clicky mechanical keyboard sounds (cherry mx blue, greeen etc)?

~~~
jdcro
Yes, mechanical keyboards are noisy and inappropriate for a shared office.

~~~
chadlavi
_some_ of them are. I'm typing this on a keyboard with browns in an open plan
office, and the three people who sit within two feet of me have no issue with
it.

------
0db532a0
I’ve had to leave a job because of office noise. Fuck the architects who sell
open plan ostensibly in the name of collaboration. Even more so when it comes
to housing actual scientists.

By the way, striking resemblance of the design of inside of The Francis Crick
institute to that of H.M.P. Pentonville [1] not too far away. Same architect,
maybe?

[https://static-independent-co-
uk.cdn.ampproject.org/i/s/stat...](https://static-independent-co-
uk.cdn.ampproject.org/i/s/static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-
public/thumbnails/image/2017/08/18/14/gettyimages-2011793.jpg?w968)

------
mmanfrin
Office noise bothers me a lot -- and visual noise. Ironically, I find I work
very well in other noisy environments (like bars or cafes). I think I desire
to eavesdrop in the office, because it's possibly relevant to my work or me.

------
jarofgreen
Anyone else find open plan offices and co-working spaces different?

I quickly realised that in space that is all one company all the discussions
concern my work, especially if you sit in teams. So I was always half
listening to chat as it was my work and if I didn't I could easily miss
things.

But in an co-working space where noone there is my colleague, none of the chat
concerns me and I find it far easier to tune out.

------
anotherevan
A close cousin of misophonia is hyperacusis, an "abnormal intolerance, a
heightened sense of volume and physical discomfort from ordinary, everyday
sounds, which other people can tolerate well."

[https://www.dineenwestcottmoore.com.au/services/hyperacusis-...](https://www.dineenwestcottmoore.com.au/services/hyperacusis-
and-misophonia/)

~~~
mark-r
This sounds like something I'm now suffering from, after a head injury in
March. Loud places make me uncomfortable in a way they didn't before. The
nature of the sound doesn't matter much.

------
nopinsight
Noise likely disturbs gifted and creative individuals more than others,
according to research on overexcitability.

“Overexcitabilities are inborn intensities indicating a heightened ability to
respond to stimuli. Found to a greater degree in creative and gifted
individuals, overexcitabilities are expressed in increased sensitivity,
awareness, and intensity, and represent a real difference in the fabric of
life and quality of experience. Dabrowski identified five areas of intensity-
Psychomotor, Sensual, Intellectual, Imaginational, and Emotional. A person may
possess one or more of these.”

[https://www.sengifted.org/post/overexcitability-and-the-
gift...](https://www.sengifted.org/post/overexcitability-and-the-gifted)

Bill Gates’ insistence on personal offices for all developers (at least during
his reign) probably helped improve Microsoft‘s productivity a great deal.

------
ping_pong
I'm lucky in that I can code in any environment and I get used to things
pretty easily. I can be interrupted by a coworker and can resume programming
immediately. I recently started working near a door that slams shut. I was
angry at first but it took me about a week to completely ignore it.

------
kbr2000
This reminds me of Bob Widlar (linear IC pioneer) and his "hassler" device
[[http://www.deceptology.com/2012-03/engineer-invents-
device-t...](http://www.deceptology.com/2012-03/engineer-invents-device-to-
discourage.html)]. Enjoy!

------
post_break
Part of me wishes I was deaf because of this. I hate all the noises, the loud
coughs, the stomping, the people who think just because it's a conference call
you have to yell. I have to wear my noise cancelling headphones at work and
close my office door, which I know is a super luxury.

------
dreamling
Yep, there is a reason why I spend about 80% of my day listening to things
like rainymood.com

------
mikece
Noise can be blocked out for the most part: either noise-cancelling headsets
(or turning the volume up to 11) to get block out noise-based distractions.
But silence or not, what is more disrupting to me are the interruptions from
email, slack, or a coworker (or boss!) stopping by or asking a question that
could have waited. The real problem is task switching and if it knocks you out
of flow it's a productivity killer. Sound can certainly do this too,
especially in pet-friendly offices where the pets don't get along with each
other, but I digress...

~~~
MereInterest
Noise-canceling headsets work for repetitive noises that are easily
predictable, such as engine noise. Human speech is very unpredictable, and
noise-canceling headsets have very little impact on them. Turning up the
volume on headphones quickly leads to hearing loss, and should never be the
recommended solution.

~~~
fyfy18
I have a set of noise cancelling Sony MDR-1000X (previous generation) and just
having the headphones switched on without music playing, they don't do much to
block voice. However if I play music quietly I can't hear anything, even if
someone is talking right next to me (or at me).

------
scythe
I've started chewing nicotine gum while in the office/class and found that it
helps a lot with making the noise more tolerable. I have a history of smoking
and vaping, so I don't recommend it to naive people. It appears to be bad for
me so I try to minimize it:

[https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/01.cir.94.5.878](https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/01.cir.94.5.878)

~~~
cowpewter
Do you have (or suspect you might have, but be undiagnosed) ADHD?

Nicotine is a stimulant. It improves concentration for individuals with ADHD,
for much the same reasons that prescription stimulant drugs do. I picked up
nicotine gum, and eventually switched to vaping myself, as a form of self-
medication for my ADHD. If it really helps you block out distracting noises
and sights from a busy office, that might be part of why.

~~~
giggles_giggles
If I could go back a few years and warn you against using nicotine to self-
medicate ADHD, I would. I also have ADHD and kicked a 5 year vaping habit
about a year ago. Nicotine might help you focus in the very short term, but if
you can't re-up every half hour, it makes it a lot harder to focus in the long
term! I spent 4 years as a developer, unable to vape in my shared office,
being interrupted every hour by the need to consume more nicotine! Every time
I'd come back in from a smoke break it felt like a race against the clock to
get back into "the zone" before the nicotine cravings kicked me out again.

You know what has really helped my focus? BREAKING THAT ADDICTION. Please, if
anyone else is reading the parent I'm replying to and thinking about starting
to use nicotine to self-medicate ADHD trust me it is NOT worth it. It's not
worth not being able to enjoy a whole movie or show because you need to intake
nicotine. It's not worth being trapped in airplanes without being able to
vape. It's not worth the chemical dependence, even if you "only" get addicted
to the gum or patch. Please hear my appeal to what a terrible idea the parent
comment is proposing! Nicotine is the absolute worst drug.

~~~
cowpewter
Oh geez, yeah, I'm definitely not _endorsing_ self-medicating with nicotine,
just saying, that I did, and that if nicotine helps you concentrate, you
_might_ wanna get evaluated for ADHD.

I was never a smoker, and I vape the lightest dose nicotine available
(3mg/ml). I have definitely developed a light addiction over the years, but I
can go all day without _needing_ my vape. The worst my cravings get are a
feeling of "Man, vaping would be really nice right now." I even went on a
week-long vacation last year, left my vape at home, and didn't even _think_
about the nicotine I was missing until I got home.

But please! Don't take my anecdotal evidence and think it means you should
pick up vaping! I know it's not the best for my health, and you may become far
more addicted than I am.

~~~
decebalus1
Huh.. your experience sounds similar to mine, although I was a heavy smoker
for ~10 years. I currently vape 3mg and a) my vape never leaves the house (I
never vape at work or around town) b) I often forget about vaping c) I left on
a two week vacation, forgot my vape at home and nothing happened. I have the
exact same craving sensation 'would have been nice to have a vape right now',
usually when I'm bored. But I am a strong advocate against smoking (obviously)
and vaping. Nobody should pick up vaping unless it's to attempt to give up
smoking. It's still a nasty habit and super dangerous. When I say dangerous I
mean the fact that in contrast to smoking, vaping has the risk of becoming a
hobby.

~~~
cowpewter
It does. A very fun hobby, with lots of cool toys. I already mix my own juice.
Originally that was just to save money, but now mixing is its own hobby. What
do I feel like this week? My usual apple-flavored juice? Do I want to throw a
little cranberry in this week just for fun? Or maybe I'm in the mood for
something minty, my wife likes mints so we've always got an array to choose
from.

I haven't even gotten into the world of rebuildables or anything like that. I
use a basic Smok sub-ohm box (a T-priv), that I'm probably going to upgrade to
the latest model in a few months, but I know there's an entire world of vape
devices out there I've barely even glimpsed over the horizon, let alone
explored. Luckily it's not too hard to talk myself out of fancy new hardware
($$) when my current mod gets the job done.

But flavors? I went and spent around $70 on flavors a couple weeks ago. Sounds
crazy, but it's still cheaper than spending $100/month on commercial juices.
And now I have a vast array of cool flavors to play with, and design my own
recipes from.

Vaping can absolutely become a dangerous hobby.

------
_bxg1
For me it's all about how "noisy" the noise is. The less discernible signal
the better, because anomalies are what my mind latches on to. I can work
without a problem in a big open coffee shop with constant, low-level hum of
conversation, but if I'm in a room with exactly one other person who's
clacking a keyboard, or talking on the phone, or occasionally munches on some
chips, I can't so much as hear myself think.

------
hosh
Interesting. Anyone think the mechanism for misphonia is similar or related to
the sensory dysphoria and audio sensitivity for people on the Autism spectrum?

~~~
izzydata
That wouldn't surprise me. I have misophonia and it feels like I'm incapable
of filtering noises. I can't tune out sounds. I also can't tune out scents,
touch or sight but those are generally less offensive to the mind.

This stuff bothers me greatly on a daily basis. If there was some switch I
could flip in my brain to stop processing these irrelevant inputs that would
be fantastic.

------
palisade
I hate open office plans. There, I said it. Take your modern "I can see the
whole office by glancing in a 360 degree circle," and shove it.

------
cik
Part of the issue is noise, but part of the issue is desired aloneness, or
personal space. I love working with headphones on, without headphones on, and
without external noise. In fact, I crave it - though am effective without it.

The caveat is that I very much appreciate my own, private space. There's
nothing I love quite as much as being first in, and blaring music for an hour
and a half.

------
numlock86
> Office noise bothers some people more than others

The title could be better as there is some discussion about health
implications. Then again, I read the article because of the title. I am pretty
sure you can't make it less interesting, as it already reads like "people
react different to things". Yeah, no doubt on that.

------
electricslpnsld
So in my last job my desk was positioned about 6 feet from the men’s restroom,
which didn’t have a door but instead one of those twisty airport paths to
block line of sight. Needless to say the sounds were not pleasant, especially
when the office lunches were more on the lentil-like side of things

------
bufordtwain
I play this on headphones at work when noise gets too much, it helps:
[https://mynoise.net/NoiseMachines/campingRainNoiseGenerator....](https://mynoise.net/NoiseMachines/campingRainNoiseGenerator.php)

------
SamReidHughes
I’ve found that my ability to tune out office noise is much lower after nights
of poor sleep. So I think it takes active work to ignore it, when you notice
it, and stay on task. The metaphor I’d use is it’s the act of shoving that
information out of the way.

------
wdb
I have worked on a floor in the break out area next to customer service agents
(30-40) which were on the phone the whole day long. That can be really
distractive. I was always happy I could work from home on Friday's. But a
consultant's life I guess

------
baseballMan
My biggest gripe is by FAR interruptions. I can deal with a noisy office. I
can't deal with people that constantly and endlessly interrupt me because they
know I know the answer to their question. Take 5 minutes and try to figure it
out for yourself.

------
rpmisms
I'm incredibly lucky to have a small shared office with an officemate who
doesn't mind my Kailh Box Jade keyboard. There's enough ambient sound from the
ancient furnace that it almost sounds like a pleasant ASMR video on most days.

------
Tomminn
Everything bothers some people more than others. Office noise is a subset of
everything.

------
codemac
Best reusable earplugs anyone?

I've used the silicon moldable ones and the plastic ones that go in the earl
canal - but they are not very re-usable, and when someone pops over to chat
taking them in and out is a chore.

~~~
grzm
I’m a fan of Etymotic Ety Plugs. Etymotic in general makes pretty solid kit.

~~~
sh-run
They make really great IEMs as well. I've got my ER2XRs on right now. They
sound great and when music isn't playing they basically act as earplugs.

They are a great option for people who have issues with ANC.

~~~
grzm
Agreed. I’m on my third pair of one model or other. I really like how quiet I
can play music and not hear anything else.

------
lcall
For blocking sounds, related current discussion:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21563355](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21563355)

------
wdb
It's a bit like people drinking coffee in the office, horrendous smell that
you can smell from miles aways and makes you nauseous but you can't tell to
not drink it.

~~~
newnewpdro
I'm no fan of coffee but you seem exceptionally sensitive in this regard.

------
montag
In desperate situations, noise canceling headphones on top of earplugs (while
playing a pink noise track) can be very effective. MacGuyver your silence

------
chaoticmass
The only office noise that really bugs me is the sound of people eating at
their desk. It's like nails on chalkboard bad for me.

------
quaquaqua1
I wear over ear headphones with a 10hr stream of airplane cabin noise playing
through it.

I despise almost all noise these days

------
spacepinball
How is this a news? This should be apparent in any office setting since the
invention of office work places.

------
executesorder66
Wow, what a revelation. I did not realize that people were different. /s

------
crtlaltdel
i’ve worked in cube farms, on shop floors, in the field at saw mills and open
offices and the only time i’ve had an issue with noise was (4) barking dogs in
a small office.

------
beaker52
FWIW, Brain.fm is great for blocking out background noise

------
xivzgrev
Recommendations on noise cancelling headphones?

~~~
mark-r
I wanted headphones that didn't rely on electronic noise cancelling. I ended
up with Sennheiser HD 280 Pros. Found them at Guitar Center, they had a really
nice testing setup. They had the best combination of noise blocking and good
sound, without being way over budget.

------
generalpass
[noun] bothers some people more than others.

------
z3ncyberpunk
Water is wet, low-hanging fruit

------
black_13
Greentown labs.

------
dimino
I tend to be a bit skeptical when studies are based on extroversion and
introversion, if only because I can test on all parts of the spectrum
depending on my mood.

I think people shackle their identity to their *version, and it can be
limiting.

~~~
RHSeeger
Out of curiosity, how are you defining the two? I ask because a lot of people
tend to define them at "enjoys interactions with (larger numbers of) people"
vs "does not enjoy interactions with (larger numbers of) people". The
definition I like is that an extrovert gains (emotional) energy from
interacting with people, while for an introvert those same interactions are
draining. Both can enjoy the interactions, it's just a matter of how long they
can sustain it.

~~~
dimino
I think of it in terms of energy gaining/draining, but I meant more from the
"big 5" test perspective, as well as the other groups of personality tests you
can take like DISC and Meters-Briggs.

In general I'm fairly skeptical of personality tests, beyond just intro/extro
version, for the similar reason that a) I can test vastly different based on
my mood and b) people tend to tie their self image to the results and you end
up with a tail-wagging-dog situation.

------
etagobla
[deleted]

~~~
metalliqaz
copy-pasted verbatim from this post of another user:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21566189](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21566189)

