
“We Just Can’t Have You Here” - jejune06
http://yaledailynews.com/weekend/2014/01/24/we-just-cant-have-you-here/
======
carterschonwald
Yale has incredibly shitty support infrastructure for it students, and only
takes action to the extent it buffs the public image of the university.

Most of other Tier 1 universities where I've known students (Columbia, Mit,
Princeton, Harvard, Dartmouth, etc), have much much more proactive support
infrastructure to prophylactically protect and suport their students (or at
least the undergrads). (whenever a student at one of these schools complains
about bureaucracy, I smile at how much more their university cares
about/protect students).

Perhaps just at importantly, students at these other schools find it more
permissible to openly communicate that they're unhappy to their peer group. At
Yale (as of 3-6 years ago), being unhappy was considered socially
unacceptable, ie "why are you here then" would be a typical response. Being
able to talk about problems amongst your social peer group is very important!
(and being unable to is toxic and dangerous)

I've some very very good friends who had terrible mental health issues go
unmanaged for years because of Yale's shitty lack of proactive support of
students. And thats even ignoring some of the sexual harrassment issues some
undergrad women I know there suffered (from their research lab advisors!).

tl;dr, yale is one of the more toxic environments in the ivy league, though to
an outsider it looks like one of the warmer communities.

The first step to having a healthy community is making it ok for people to
talk about problems and matters.

I speak from the experience of having been a student at yale, a graduate
student at another ivy, and having spent A LOT of time visiting friends at
many universities. Every school has its faults, but trust least the ones that
hide those faults.

~~~
Nimi
Non-US resident here. I found the treatment of the OP appalling, but I have to
ask: what's the deal with _schools_ doing this stuff? I'm a PhD student at
Tel-Aviv University, the medical services we have on campus are limited to a
couple of nurses and maybe a doctor or two, for urgent cases or when you just
need a band-aid. Last time I went to the medical "facility" (which is really a
couple of rooms), I was told to schedule an appointment with a doctor outside
the university, and that was it. So no one at the university even _knows_
about any health issues I may have, and certainly not treats them or evaluates
their severity.

Sexual harassment is indeed a problem, here as well, but again I wonder why
not go to the police? At least here, it's a criminal offense. Not that
students go to the police, but why don't they?

~~~
wting
It's a combination of multiple factors.

I go to UT Austin, which has a population size of 75,000 and basically its own
city. An on site clinic is a practical measure since it's convenient and
handles the simple stuff[1] for the campus body while deferring to specialists
or hospitals for more complex procedures.

The clinic is paid through mandatory fees and thus "free". By comparison,
visiting another clinic or doctor is less convenient and has a $10-25 copay
(more if you don't have insurance).

> Sexual harassment is indeed a problem, here as well, but again I wonder why
> not go to the police? At least here, it's a criminal offense.

It is a criminal offense, but there is a lot of emotional fallout that the
police aren't prepared to handle. Mental health and counseling services are
supposed to help victims in these situations, not push them out.

[1]: List of services on page 4 (PDF):
[http://healthyhorns.utexas.edu/IMAGES/pdf/UHS%20Information%...](http://healthyhorns.utexas.edu/IMAGES/pdf/UHS%20Information%20Guide.pdf)

~~~
Nimi
Thank you for the response. Your comment and other ones indeed explain the
matter - some colleges are basically their own cities, located near a small
town.

My own conclusions from this appalling story are:

1\. If you're at a U.S. university and are experiencing mental difficulties -
just pay the 25$ copay and see someone outside the university. Had the OP done
that, Yale would have probably had no clue what was going on. Maybe someone
would notice she's missing classes, maybe not even that.

2\. Don't get committed. If you need to, see a therapist on your time and on
your own dime. They likely won't order you to take off your underwear, spread
your legs, then hop up and down to make sure nothing was hidden “up there".

~~~
joesmo
To not get committed, one would have to lie about hurting oneself (which might
not have been possible in this case given the visible injury). Not foolproof,
but to not get committed, one should keep these thoughts to oneself. Even a
trusted doctor is likely to commit one. This decision still lies purely with
the doctor. The _only_ surefire way to not get committed is to not see anyone
who doesn't have your best interests in mind and that includes all medical and
social professions. Sad indeed.

~~~
Nimi
Yes, sounds like a serious dilemma - try to get help, and you risk being
committed. I have a feeling that private psychiatrists know they face a repeat
game with a patient they shipped to such horrendous treatment at a ward, and
thus have their finger resting much easier on the trigger. But as you said,
nothing here is foolproof.

~~~
joesmo
I wouldn't doubt that. Psychiatrists play some horrific games with their
patients that border on criminal (and likely should be criminal). These days,
a patient that is difficult is simply dealt with in the simplest possible way:
drugs. If that one size fits all solution should cause problems or not work, I
wouldn't put it past any psychiatrist to commit their difficult patients,
especially ones with a history of problems. Most of the time, they won't even
bother with a diagnosis, even after years of prescribing medicine. In many
ways, it's quite scary, and undoubtedly people that need the help are not
getting it while people that don't are being drugged and strung on for the
psychiatrist's profit.

------
rdtsc
Schools don't give a shit about you. Whatever they do in these cases is driven
by "What can we do to not lose money? What can we do to not get sued? What can
we do to avoid a PR disaster?".

Keeping that student is perceived a liability for them. As they honestly put
it they don't really think they will be safer at home, and it is obvious they
don't care what happens. They just don't want to deal with it. They see this
person as a risk not worth taking.

> If I were a liar, I would never have gotten myself into this mess. Fuck me
> for not being a liar.

You sometimes have to be a liar when dealing with large bureaucratic systems.
A large school is certainly one such thing. They do not have your best
interests in mind. Healing you is not on their priority list. Be honest with
people you trust and love. Don't treat institutions as moral agents.

You'll even find sometimes your doctor's #1 priority might not be to heal you.
Their goal could be to perform more surgeries. So all of the sudden you are
told to get surgeries. Get second opinions. And so on.

~~~
judk
This observation isn't really a complaint about Yale or college in particular.

Yale is not her parents, not her church, not the Connecticut Health Service,
not the National Health Service. What does Yale owe her any more than all the
rest of us owe her?

~~~
rdtsc
Schools used to be thought of as parent-substitutes of sorts in the past. In
loco parentis was used to refer to this idea. Women would be subject to
curfews for example and so on.

The idea is really about what she expected her school to be -- a welcoming
community that will help her grow or something of that sort (she took the
marketing flyers literally). Was she naive to believe that? A lot of young
people make that mistake. Some from affluent small town communities have not
had to deal with large bureaucracies before. This is their first go at it.

~~~
secstate
This here is the crux of the issue. Young, impressionable people believing
what the school is selling. And you can argue till the end of the Earth about
who's fault it is, but the reality is that the world is full of people who are
in turns impressionable and opportunistic.

I loved my alma mater, but I also never for one second believed that anyone
outside of the few professors I was close to and still keep in touch with,
actually cared about me as a person.

The author's experience with mental health issues was a perfect shit storm of
being cut down after taking their warm-fuzzy message hook-line-and-sinker, AND
a broken health care system in general.

I would also argue there are no easy answers. It's not my place to suggest
reforms, but if you're admitting someone to a psych ward and you know that at
least one time they slashed their thigh open with a pocket knife, how can you
possibly take their word for it that they aren't going to use the drawstring
on their pants, or the plastic cover of a notebook to try self harm again?
It's a no-win situation, and those are the worst.

The best case would probably be to abolish psych wards and give everyone one-
on-one access to a counselor 24-7 so they can hang out and be 100% sure
they're not in danger. But I'd also note the world has moved "forward" a lot
in terms of stigmas and treatment of the mentally ill. Is their room to
improve, hell yes. But to ignore the almost death-camp like environments of
the homes for the feeble minded just a century ago, we're doing okay.

~~~
DanBC
Removing ligatures is fine. Removing actual sharps is fine. I don't know the
plastic binder, so maybe removing that is fine too.

Making someone strip naked for a search is not fine. Giving an intimate search
is also not fine. Threatening to restrain them to a bed is not fine. Keeping
them in their room is not fine. Keeping them on a locked ward is not fine. Etc
etc.

If her account is accurate I am shocked by how bad her treatment was. I've
attended many a&e units with someone with severe deliberate self harm (much
worse than described in the article) and that person got much better
treatment. Not just medical clinical treatment, but the humane stuff too.

------
prolways
In general, if you seek help you will only be punished.

My sister sought help for a sleeping disorder, and received nothing but a
suspension of her driver's license. She then had to overcome her medical
difficulties on her own and pass an unreasonably arduous test to get her
license back.

My coworker went to our boss to say she couldn't make ends meet and needed
some kind of raise (making $25k with 2 kinds in bay area). He fired her for
being a liability.

I went to the police to report a hit and run, and they used it as an
opportunity to search my vehicle in an attempt to levy charges against me.
They openly acknowledged they have basically 0 ability to actually find the
perpetrator of the real crime.

I ask myself almost every day, as I'm innundated with needless financial and
societal burdens I cannot shoulder, what obligations does society have back to
me? I cannot think of any.

~~~
Einstalbert
A cynical but rational outlook on life.

~~~
Afforess
_The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it_

~~~
brazzy
No; cynicism is intellectual and moral laziness. It allows you to distill a
complex world to a simplified negative caricature that justifies not making an
effort yourself (or makes your efforts seem more extraordinary than
warranted).

My personal counter anecdote: 2 weeks ago, I lost my camera (with a nice new
lens on it) in the subway. Worth more than $700. Everyone I told said almost
the same thing: "you'll never see it again, someone would have to be stupid to
give it back; I would, but I'm stupid."

Well, 2 days later I picked it up at the lost&found.

------
akavi
Make no mistake, this policy directly results in Yale students not seeking out
help for fear of the consequences.

I should know; I was one of them.

------
stephen
I really don't understand the comments here. "Lie better"? Wtf?

The gal has obviously sick. Yes, Yale sent her away, but is there any actual
psychiatrist here who would recommend keeping a suicidal/self-harming patient
in any school/job situation?

If anything, Yale should get some credit for not black balling her; they,
including this awful "won't see the students" Dr. Siggins, readmitted her when
she was recovered.

Sounds like a horrible, unfortunate situation worked out as well as can be
expected.

~~~
barry-cotter
I agree with you on Yale's actions and the suitability of those actions. That
does not mean the lesson she drew from her experiences is incorrect; In the
real world the only person who always has your back isyou. If you're fortunate
one of friends or family will actually be there for you if you need them, if
lucky both. Institutions are inhuman and they protect themselves Bureaucracies
do not give a shit.

~~~
gohrt
> In the real world the only person who always has your back is you.

When suffering from mental illness, this belief can be simultaneously helpful
and devastatingly incorrect.

------
niels_olson
As a physician, and former member of a college staff, I suspect Ms Williams
will look back on this bit of writing with a twinge.

She had to "listen to the rattling gasping sound coming from the person two
beds down" and to "a schizophrenic person declare, every hour or so, that he
had soiled himself". When she is interning for The Congressman, in a policy
debate about primary care or mental health, she will value the opportunity to
have borne witness to their sufferings.

She was asked to recite the presidents in reverse order? You mean the
psychiatrist was adapt enough to develop a intellectually appropriate
variation on the mini-mental status exam? That sounds like first rate care to
me.

The men with guns have guns because they're representatives of the state. Yes,
ultimately, they exercise the state's monopoly on violence. Which is mostly
incidental. We can't arrange special neutered cops for the sensibilities of Ms
Williams, and frankly, the psych ward of a downtown hospital is one of the
more volatile places in the world. Same for the room/cell, etc, etc. The
physical confines are a function of what's safe based on the lowest common
denominator in the population: the 6'7" 230 lb schizoaffective linebacker
(have met those patients ... do not care to meet again).

Her central thesis, that Yale is focused on image, frankly doesn't sound like
anything the university is really worried about. No rational administrator
would allow image to enter their minds. If anything, that would be
antithetical to the image argument. These are people who live their lives by
the mantra that they should be prepared for anything they say to be published
on the front page of the New York Times. And they're pretty savvy. They know
that doing the best for this student, no matter what the blow back, is
ultimately the right thing to do. Take care of the patient and the image issue
will take care of itself.

~~~
WoodenChair
"That sounds like first rate care to me."

And that's exactly why so many people are increasingly apathetic regarding
your profession. To a casual observer, the article reads straight out of the
19th century. I'm glad you're not my physician.

PS I think you will look back at this bit of writing with a twinge. I look
forward to IBM's Watson turning you into a over glorified rubber stamp.

~~~
ismarc
You've obviously never had any real interaction with someone in the grip of a
mental health emergency. She was put on suicide watch and evaluation, not
because it's just fun. She cut the shit out of her leg, to where it bleed
through, had repeated, documented thoughts of suicide and then tried to just
pretend everything was OK. The first night was emergency care, i.e., make sure
she didn't die. The next days were mental health evaluation while making sure
she didn't die. You cannot be forcibly admitted in the U.S. she admitted
herself. She did not have to stay after the first night, but they will make
you think you do because they want you alive and to help you get better. It's
not some giant conspiracy to do harm to people.

Does mental health services suck pretty much everywhere? Yes. But nothing she
went through was inhumane (I've been through similar scenarios in less
pleasant medical facilities) and all of it is geared to try and help.

~~~
DanBC
I've had extensive experience caring for someone with severe and enduring
mental illness. That person had several stays at MH hospital, some as an
informal patient and some as a patient detained under various sections of the
mental health act. In about 6 years that person's DSH was severe enough to
require surgical treatment and inpatient admission to general hospitals or
hospitals with specialist services. (Eg burns and plastics wards). I have
personal experience of accessing specialist mental health services. All of
this is in the UK.

I can confidantly say that you are wrong when you say I have no experience of
people in acute psycjiatric distress.

Locked rooms is very unusual. Locked wards are not normal. A person might need
supervision to leave the ward but they are not prisoners and are not treated
like prisoners - risk is managed by closer supervision (I know a person who
had 2 members of staff within arms reach at all times) not by locking them in
a room. There are _rare_ exceptions to this with special soft rooms - all blue
with heavy crash mats. In gloucestershire this room is in the low secure
forensic unit, which is in the grounds of but seperate from the main adult
mental health hospital for the county.

A person at severe risk of self harm or suicide will be able to do so in a
very bare room - smashing their head on the walls or floor, using their
clothing as a ligature.

Strip searching patients is inhumane. Intimate searches of patients is just
bizarre. Especially when we remember the overlap between people who have a
mental health problem and peole who have been sexually abused. Being stripped
and intimately searched is distressing for most people, but could be
especially so for victims of sexual abuse.

The UK charity Mind recently did a report about restraint for aggressive
patients and for patients who needed rapid tranquelisation. This is something
that should be used as a last resort in very clear situations. That report
talked about the need to protect people from unneccessary restraint. I mention
this because even this clearly protective measure (even most service users
recognise a need for appropriate restraint) is looked at carefully to see if
there are safer kinder alternatives.

We can't tell from her post how severe her wound was. She doesn't mention any
drips, so we don't know if they needed to give her fluids or not. We don't
know if they used sutures to close the wounds or if they ised steri-strips.
They didn't admit her for surgery.

If her story is true it is shocking.

You say that you've experienced similar or worse. I am very sorry you went
through that, and I am angry other people who should have been caring for you
put you through that.

(I've noticed a couple of people mentioning my tone so I am trying to work on
that. Sorry ifthis post sounds aggressive or grumpy, it isn't meant to. That's
just my poor use of English).

~~~
marvin
Thanks for setting the record straight on this. It makes me really sad to read
all the comments here that have no clue how treatment of psychiatric
emergencies should be done. If this is representative for the United States,
I'm sure as hell glad I don't live there. Never been admitted to a psychiatric
hospital myself, but I have enough friends who have (serious self-harm,
attempted suicide by overdose or firearms). Their stories are like yours. I
have never heard of anything _resembling_ the stuff portrayed in this story.
Seems to me that the US conflates violent criminals and mental patients, with
some very bizarre and ethically horrendous results.

~~~
Daniel_Newby
Psychiatric wards in the U.S. are for very short term stays by people who have
extreme problems. They take people who are at major risk of causing harm, and
patch them up just enough so that they can be thrown out. And even that is
being scaled down and sped up.

The inpatient mental health system is like a mental ICU: designed for
prevention of death, not for anyone's convenience.

~~~
marvin
My point is that this approach _causes_ harm. It's like treating heavy
bleeding by applying a tourniquet and sending the patient out the door. It's
_medically unsafe_ , unsustainable patient care. This is not simply a question
of budgets, it is a question of how society views mental health. This kind of
treatment indicates an "us and them" mentality where mental patients are
viewed as second-class citizens. Your wording, "extreme problems" also hints
at such a dichtomy, although I'm sure you didn't do it on purpose. There are
other ways to say this: Basket cases, crazy, insane, psycho, major issues,
etc. A neutral term would be "very ill" or something like that.

My examples of attempted suicide by overdose or "self-influcted gunshot
wounds" definitely qualify as "extreme problems", so it is clear that there is
a different way to do this.

I am aware that your comment probably just meant to say that the system is set
up in an unfortunate way, and that you probably don't represent the views I
describe here. But from my perspective it appears to be much worse than just
an underfunded system.

------
tehwalrus
As someone who attended Cambridge University, UK, this looks totally alien to
me.

I have seen my fellow students (good friends) suffer bereavement, depression
and self-harm, and none were ever told that they were no longer welcome at the
college, or the university, nor treated like criminals[1] as described here.

There are pastoral carers, both religious and non-religious, and councilling
services based at different levels within the university, and there is (of
course) NHS healthcare as well.

If people do take time out (usually a whole year at a time) they return when
they feel well enough, not when they are re-approved as sane by some
university figure concerned with PR.

Lying about being "OK" at every turn is also not something that happens. Of
course, people don't always answer in detail when asked how they are, as
social convention dictates, but it was entirely normal to say that you were
snowed under with work/extra-curricular stuff, or that there was something
bugging you. Either that or I was doing it wrong the whole time.

[1] == treated like mental patients 40 years ago. Also remember that something
like 70% of all inmates in British jails have a mental health problem.

~~~
Daniel_Newby
Yale is a sort of a finishing school for the highest levels of electioneering.
Having people leave to spend more time with their families is part of the
game.

------
hangonhn
My personal experience at Yale differs quite a bit from hers. A lot of my
friends and I struggled through our experiences at Yale. Things sucked a lot
at times but there's a certain unity that results from collective suffering.
Maybe it's because I'm recollecting the entire 4 years while she's still doing
her undergraduate studies.

Things weren't always alright but I did get a break when I needed it. I went
to the Department of Undergraduate Health after having really bad headaches,
like someone was stabbing me in the forehead. They checked some stuff but the
doctor basically said I was working myself to death. I was definitely
struggling at that point. He told me to take a few days off and wrote a note
for me. I took it to my dean and he wrote another note that basically allowed
me to turn in all my work late for about a week or so. I rested and things got
better. I don't think I was alone in struggling and receiving help. It's a bit
hard for me to reconcile the considerably more compassionate response I
received from Yale with her experience. Is Yale so extreme that once you cross
a threshold they become stone cold?

People struggle in college. It's strange for me to read that everyone around
her is acting OK. I would have told her that things are tough if we had been
classmates. It's pretty depressing at times watching the sunrise from the
windows of the computer lab. Or in my moment of triumph after getting my toy
OS to run there is no one around to share that joy with because most people
are asleep at 6 AM on Saturday.

I'm not saying her account isn't true for her but Yale is a big and diverse
place. It might to good to be around different people. Go hang out with the CS
people in the computer lab on Friday night at 11PM. They will tell you things
aren't alright and thanks for the company.

~~~
justinmk
> It's pretty depressing at times watching the sunrise from the windows of the
> computer lab.

At least your lab had windows...

~~~
hangonhn
You're an University of Waterloo alum?

------
grannyg00se
So if you cut yourself you get treated as a criminal and tortured? What the
hell is going on here? How is this even legal?

~~~
girvo
Welcome to the mental health "industry". I avoided it, thank god, though by
rights I probably shouldn't have in some ways. I self medicated with heroin to
avoid being locked up in hospital, with little visitation, no computer, no
life, for six months, just like people I knew had. Now I've spent the last
year and half getting clean, after 7 years of addiction... And what scares me
is that I seem to be doing better than those that went through the real
system.

~~~
legutierr
> And what scares me is that I seem to be doing better than those that went
> through the real system.

How so? What happened to them?

~~~
001sky
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobotomy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobotomy)

Modern technique is slightly different, but the outsome / goals essentially
the same. And this historical record is elighntening both in the origins and
the evolution of the clinical treatent. Today, the preferred method is to drug
children in schools.

Evolution surely hasn't increased the error rate in replicating "normal" DNA
sets over the past 50 years, but the data indicates something like 1/5 of them
are now "defective" enough to be eligible for the happy treatment.[1]

[1] _In US, 20% Of Children Have A Mental Disorder_
>[http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/260697.php](http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/260697.php)

------
DanBC
This account is very disturbing. Her mental health "treatment" is illegal in
the UK and should result in compensation payouts.

Don't Americans have anti-discrimination laws? And the decision to exclide
people who disclose self harm is baffling, because people who self harm
usually avoid seeking treatment. Not just avoid seeking treatment for self
harm, but avoid seeking treatment for other stuff because they are worried
about the self harm being discovered.

------
isaacb
I had very good support for mental health troubles at NYU. I never harmed
myself, so it is very possible that I would have had a different experience in
this student's shoes, but it did wonders for me to feel cared for. I can only
imagine how terrible it would be to have a support system open up from under
you.

------
noonespecial
An all expenses paid (by you) trip on the "cover your ass" express, stopping
at every station. The passenger? Heh, no. You're the cargo.

------
rajacombinator
Although the "disappearing" of her sounds bad, it's clear that Yale made the
right decision. Students suffering this kind of mental trauma do no belong in
a high stress academic environment. It would be irresponsible to allow them to
stay.

------
bichiliad
Playing devil's advocate here: A similar article drifted around for a while
about a girl going to RISD. She talked about how she was abused, abandoned by
her friends, etc. After talking to a few friends who actually go to the
school, apparently nothing could be farther from the truth.

Remember, take what you read with a grain of salt. You have no way of
verifying any of the facts in the article.

------
joesmo
Sadly, this is how the rest of the world is (not that Yale or any other
educational institution should be like this just because the rest of the world
is). Mental problems are frowned upon in our society except when they can be
used to profit off of people.

There is NO help for people with mental problems, only abandonment and
prosecution. Because of legislation preventing discrimination, this is not
done overtly and it APPEARS that one can get help from doctors and mental
health facilities when in reality these are just the wardens and prisons for
those who are labeled as mentally defective. It's obvious that Yale does not
care about its students based on Dr. Siggins' behavior, but this is something
that one should expect for the rest of one's life. Best thing to do is to keep
quiet and recognize the lack of help. Occasionally, there are doctors and
therapists that can help, but mostly they will just try to push drugs.

------
PhantomGremlin
College is when you transition from the (hopefully) "happy place" you were as
a kid to "the real world".

It sucks that Yale didn't help this person when she need it. But it certainly
doesn't get any better in the real world.

If, one fine afternoon, your boss says "how are you?" and you say "I cut
myself earlier today", then expect to be promptly escorted out of the
building. Perhaps to a mental health facility, if you're lucky.

If, one fine afternoon, your boss says "how are you?" and you don't say
"fine", be prepared to explain yourself in detail. You'd better have a way
with words, because your job is definitely on the line. Especially at a
startup.

You might say "that sucks". And it does suck. But that's just the way it is
for 99% (wild made up number) of the jobs in the USA. Unlike grade school
soccer games, your employer isn't going to hand out trophies just for
participation.

All IMO of course.

~~~
chao-
_> Especially at a startup._

Disagree†. High turnover is not desirable anywhere, but it is far less
tolerable at a startup. People are far less interchangeable and systems are
more often bound up in people's minds rather than in some employee handbook.

†Depending what phase of startup you are referring to, a somewhat tangential
discussion.

~~~
PhantomGremlin
For what it's worth, I had that almost exact conversation, as an engineer at a
startup. The only difference from what I wrote and real life was that it
wasn't my boss, it was my boss's boss, the VP of Engineering, doing something
called "management by wandering around".

That was 30 years ago, but I doubt that today's managers are any different. I
did keep my job, but alarm bells were definitely ringing in top management
that day.

Successful startups (which ours turned out to be) are often as much about risk
management as anything else. Having employees that aren't 100% "fine", for any
reason, is a risk. Of course that risk must be weighted against the turnover
of replacing that employee.

~~~
auctiontheory
_Having employees that aren 't 100% "fine", for any reason, is a risk._

I doubt you have ever worked for a company where most (or any!) of the
employees were 100% fine.

The choice is not whether to be fine. The choice is whether to deal with
problems as they inevitably arise in all our lives, or to hide them under the
rug ... until they erupt.

------
gaius
_Upon my release from the hospital (also not a function of my recovery — but
as a result of my expulsion from the College_

Damn, that's bleak.

------
yeukhon
_None of us are completely okay. But the pressure to conform to being
perfectly functional and happy is a burden that we should neither want nor
bear._

We are playing Elsa in Frozen. _Be the good girl you always have to be.
Conceal, don 't feel, don't fear, conceal_.

College is certainly very different. Well, also, depending on the people you
rely on in school.

I want to say that we should recognize depression and mental illness is just
part of life and don't be afraid when bad things come to us.

When I was in HS I had a severe depression. Starting in the junior year I had
multiple anger issues and I had to drop some AP classes due to stress. In
senior year I had several serious incidents within and outside of school. The
stress was killing me. I couldn't resist to see my grade going down, losing
grasp of the new shiny robotics club I just started and couldn't get the girl
I really like at the time.

I was sent to hospital twice for evaluation. The second time, I was called by
my counselor. She told me someone wanted to see me and I asked who. Two NYPD
officers showed up and they escorted me to the hospital. I was really scared.
I cried and I thought I was under arrested. I was only 17 at the time. I have
never been arrested. I thought my counselor betrayed me. I thought everyone
sold me out. My counselor said someone else from the school would come with
me. A school aid came with us. Both evaluations are dull and tiring. My whole
family had to stay with me until 2, 3AM in the morning. Some times later my
mother said they all cried when they heard how sick I was. When the MD
confirmed I was sick, it was like someone just sentenced me to death. I could
finally tell people "yes, I am sick", but at the same time I was sick and
people would look at me slightly different.

We all have some experience with depression and anxiety. The experience is
never pleasant. For me, it involves sleeping late and feel unmotivated. My day
and night reversed. I could sleep for 12-14 hours a day. Nothing felt real
when I was depressed. Just watch Frozen.

I could go on and on with a novel writing here (well I suck at writing..). But
I can see I am a lucky person. I knew a lot of the people in HS. I used to
work in the principal office, I was the go-to IT guy so I knew many people.
When I was sick they would tell me "go on John." The school didn't ban me from
entering the school. They hired psychiatrist to come to school on a weekly
basis (apparently I wasn't the only one having issue in my high school). The
social worker and the psychiatrist were both Chinese so my parents could
actually talk to them. My teachers didn't penalize me much for the tardiness
and would encourage me to come to school. PE became my favorite class. I could
run 10-20 laps around the track and the sweat made me happier. Yes. Sun light
is important. Locking a patient in a concrete building forever is not going to
help much. Socializing with other patients won't help much either... If my
senior year last 10 months, I lost probably 7 months fighting depression with
3 months somewhat happy, crazy moments with classmates, friends and teachers.

College is different to me. People come and go. I go to a commute type of
school. I get to come home. I get to sleep in and stay inside my room for a
whole week if I want to. My parents can worry or feel angry but they are my
parents. Unlike people who dorm they have to put up with other "strangers".
College is like going for a boring interview for a boring job. That's just me.
That's just my experience.

We shouldn't treat people with mental illness as third class citizen. We need
to make rehabilitation more human. Drugs can damage brain and can change
people. If you have watch _Fringe_ you would know how much the drug and the
environment affect Dr. Walter. And if you watch _Orange is the New Black_ ,
prisoners are afraid of going to the psycho solitary.

I am proud to tell people my story because this is part of my life. I feel
like a real person. I am not a Disney character. I have desire and my desire
pushed me beyond my limit and so I become depressed, stressed and hopeless.

Don't be afraid to tell people when you are not okay. It's fine. Knowing you
are not okay is the first step to rescue yourself. It's okay to feel depress
and get depress for a while. Just remember, one day, when you wake up, you
will feel better and you will force yourself to go out there. When that
happens, don't let the freedom run away from you...

 _For the first time in forever, there will be music there will be light. For
the first time in forever, I will be dancing through the night._

But of course, luck does play in a role. Some people are just not so lucky.
They don't get the nice people on their side and they die because of that...

As a side note, I was depressed recently again. I feel better now. I set my
foot out of the house. I went to realworldcrypto conference and did
volunteering for local FLL (FIRST Lego League). I chilled with friends and
people I used to work with and then I saw two great movies. I built a snowman
and now I feel better.

~~~
mercer
> Don't be afraid to tell people when you are not okay. It's fine. Knowing you
> are not okay is the first step to rescue yourself.

So true. I've known many people who suffered deeply, and reaching out to
friends was an important step to recovery. I've experienced this myself too.

It's kind of odd, really, that we don't do this, and perhaps equally odd that
we don't watch out for each other a little better. It's like we collectively
pretend that we're perfectly okay, and we don't want to ruin that illusion by
admitting that many are not.

If my friends notice that I eat a lot of junk food, or that I smoke too much,
they'll point it out to me. But it takes a major depressive episode and/or
social isolation for anyone to bring up my mental state (if at all).

Of all my friends who suffer from (pretty serious) mental illnesses, the ones
who seem to have a handle on it are very open and communicative about it. That
really does seem to be very important.

> But of course, luck does play in a role. Some people are just not so lucky.
> They don't get the nice people on their side and they die because of that...

For me this is the scariest thing about mental illness. I've become
increasingly convinced that a large number of people, much larger than we're
inclined to think, are incredibly fragile and not far removed from a serious
mental breakdown or prolonged mental illness.

Of those people, many find help, recover, or fend off their illness because
they have friends and family looking out for them, a social safety net. Strong
connections where they feel safe to admit they have a problem.

I've personally seen people slip into depression and disappear from sight,
only to find out later that they were institutionalized or (temporarily)
homeless. They rarely fully recovered, if at all. What set them apart from
those who bounced back was mostly this social safety net, I suspect. There are
other factors, of course, but this one seems crucial.

And that worries me, because when I look around me, it shocks me how weak
people's social connections are. I regularly meet people who can't rely on
family and have few close friends. I spend a lot of time thinking about how
this problem can be solved.

I grew up with very strong family bonds and in close-knit communities. If I
were to have serious mental health issues, my parents, and at least some of my
other social connections, would go above and beyond to nurse me back to
health. I've seen many, many unstable people join a church and improve greatly
through the community's care and attention.

I'd like to think we can find a way to create and maintain strong ties _even_
in urban environments, and _even_ in our individualistic post-religious
societies, but I haven't found out exactly how yet, or what my part in this
can be.

It keeps me up at night.

Thanks for your post, it really resonated with me.

------
b1daly
I'm actually dumbfounded that this happened to this student if it as she
described. I went to an Ivy years ago and I and many other students took
medical leave. There was no need to reapply or jump through hoops, you just
had to tell them you were better. Has something changed? Can they kick you out
for other illnesses?

------
socrates1998
When I read stuff like this, I am glad I didn't go to an Ivy League school. I
know this is Yale and not the other schools, but I have heard similar issues
with anxiety, pressure and suicide at many other top schools.

Americans are addicted to success. People lie to each other about how good
everything is.

"I hate my job, but life after 5pm is okay." "I have no time to see my family,
but my life is rockin!" "I work 100 hours a week, but I love it!"

Balance is difficult because no one can tell you what it is, you have to find
it yourself.

------
username223
And that's just the beginning. Now that this is on her permanent record, she
gets to explain it to potential employers. Dealing with the American mental
health system has a guaranteed cost, and uncertain benefits.

~~~
tptacek
Huh? What potential employer gets its candidates health records?

~~~
username223
As Jtsummers wrote (before it was zapped), it's an issue if you ever want a
clearance. Also, they're free to ask, giving you the opportunity to either
tell the truth and risk being passed over -- good luck proving discrimination
-- or lie and put yourself in a position to get screwed later.

~~~
Jtsummers
I removed my post because I didn't like the way I wrote it, and wasn't sure
how to rewrite it. I wasn't meaning to contradict tptacek with it, but it came
off (to me) that way. And I deleted just after it popped up after my 2 minute
post delay.

My point was: Physical health - all I've seen from jobs is a requirement for a
physical. They may request the records from the physical and it could be
comprehensive. I've never heard of requests for older records, though a doctor
may need to fill something out (like a physical limitations form for an
applicant or worker who has had a hernia or back surgery).

Mental health - I've only seen this in relation to security clearances. In
that situation (IMO) the request is entirely reasonable, and has not (IME and
experience of friends) been a showstopper to be honest. But I don't know
anyone that was hospitalized either (well, that I know of) who sought a job
with a security clearance requirement. Really, the agencies involved _knowing_
about the problems is the main thing. If they know about it, then it's harder
for someone to use it as leverage. Similarly, with good bosses, them knowing I
have issues with anxiety/depression has meant they've intervened and helped me
catch it earlier than I ever would have on my own.

------
marvin
That is a fucked up way to treat psychiatric patients. Are all psychiatric
wards in the US like this?

~~~
lilsunnybee
It depends on your insurance, and probably what region of the country you're
in too. Personally i've been in three places that were better, one that was
worse: sexual abuse, orderlies stealing meds meant for patients, completely
ignoring people except to punish them, foul-tasting food, etc.

------
roymurdock
I wonder why she went back?

~~~
dreamdu5t
Right!? I'm flabbergasted by the pedestal people put schools on. She's going
to be a real wreck once she leaves Yale and realizes having a Yale degree
doesn't solve any of her problems.

------
raintrees
Taken at face value, the OP required help. And Yale just happened to be the
place she was when it came to the fore.

I would like to posit that many organizations can react the same, and my
personal experience is that it is incredibly helpful to "stay out of the
system" if at all possible, again with the caveat that said person is not
suffering from a serious health issue like depression/self-mutilation,
discrimination to the point of lethal action, etc. that would greatly benefit
from being discovered and treated, or at least isolated as the cases may
merit.

My difficulty was taking my addictive personality and my "gaming the system"
mentality and using it on my escapes of choice, mostly alcohol, at the time.
Being on the system's radar (Driving Under the Influence conviction) taught me
the lesson of the value of freedom.

I completely abstain at this point, easier for me just to not drink any
intoxicant than to try to monitor my intake/arrange for cabs/limos, etc. My
freedom is a rejoice-able thing, especially when I see the tendency for
bureaucracies to treat people with problems with generalistic
patterns/antipatterns. Labels like "alcoholic" or "suffering from depression"
are easy targets/goals for the people who are saddled with the responsibility
of deciding how to deal with a person with problems in a life where the
deciding individuals feel overwhelmed with the amount of cases they are
expected to get through.

And I see a reason for concern as the current US government (my location, I do
not know if other countries are similar) looks for methods of simplifying the
task of dealing with gun control, whistle blowers, and other events/people
that may be perceived as threats to the current system. It would be
conceivable, based on current legislation attempts/actions, that my government
would decide that it is easier to limit the possession of firearms to
individuals who have never had "issues" with addictions or mental deviations
from what is considered "normal." Or that the potential for disruption of
society and markets make self-publication on mediums (Internet blog posts?
Self-made videos?) something that should be heavily regulated, for society's
own good... And that same governing body is necessarily the arbitrator of what
is "normal." Wouldn't bucking the British rule of colonial America be possibly
considered "abnormal" by the British government of the time?

One may argue that we do not want mentally-challenged individuals in
possession of firearms, I may agree frequently on a case by case basis, but
that also then extends to possession of vehicles (more death due to automobile
accidents than many other causes), and eventually anything else that can be
considered a threat. Box Cutters on planes? Aren't there individuals out there
who have the ability to use their own bodies to carry out extensive damage
without the aid of any other physical weapon? How would we limit them?

More thought and dialog seems merited, and I appreciate this article for that,
as well...

------
michaelochurch
This is not a problem with Yale alone. It's a problem with people. Most people
have no sense of social justice and have no problem kicking someone like her
when she's down.

It's tempting to think most people are good because few people are obviously
evil, and that's wrong. Most people are weak. They're just shuffling through
life, not giving a shit, and those who end up in power tend to be the worst
(rather than being unambitious, they tend to be the ones with _empty_
ambition).

Here's why this sort of situation, within the U.S. social model, will never
get better.

Technology's somewhat different (for now, but the disgusting mainstream
business/MBA culture continues to invade because engineers do not fucking
fight for themselves) because a high-talent person (even with intermittent
health issues) can add a lot of value. However, for most of white-collar
America, "work" is just pointless private-sector social climbing. Pure image,
no substance, because the work is not demanding and Making Decisions (parable
of the bikeshed) is valued in its own right.

The only way to resolve those environments and pick winners among the horde of
petitioning narcissists is to set up pointless reliability contests and see
who drops first. This idea that it's somehow wrong to discriminate against, or
turn one's back on, those with organic physical or mental health issues throws
a wrench in that whole game, because transient, context-driven illness
(physical and mental) is the core of the selection process. It's what selects
people out. The whole point of the old-style corporate-ladder game is to load
people up with easy (and often purposeless) work, but in extreme volumes, and
presume that those who break last are the best, and those who deserve to lead.
(Actually, the opposite is true. Superficial reliability and creativity are
negatively correlated, but that's another discussion.) But if you start
designating specific illnesses as formal disabilities that must be
accommodated (which, from a social justice perspective, one should) that game
stops working.

Could you imagine telling an investment bank that people with clinical
depression could no longer be expected to work over 60 hours per week? So many
people would get themselves diagnosed with depression that people with actual
depression would be assumed to just be "faking it" anyway.

What the OP experienced at Yale is wrong, but it's no different from what
she'd expect in The Real World.

~~~
awt
How do you break out of conventional thinking like this? Awesome.

