
On a brother’s suicide: ‘I wish I had never told him to go to counseling’ - aburan28
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/04/30/i-wish-i-had-never-told-my-brother-to-get-help-from-our-college-when-he-was-suicidal/?tid=sm_fb
======
nailer
Single sentence extract:

> He goes to the counselling centre but instead of offering any help, they
> call my mom to come down and then at 5 p.m. that day, hold a meeting with a
> dean and five other staff where they promptly dismiss my brother from
> William and Mary and ban him from College grounds.

~~~
kosma
How is this even legal? I can't even imagine this happening in Europe; you
can't dismiss someone from school without legal basis. Is it different in
America?

~~~
Thriptic
Assuming that his contact was only with a mental health professional, his
dismissal strikes me as illegal and unethical. It is absolutely illegal in the
United States for a physician to release medical records to anyone without the
patient's consent, and mental health records are generally treated as
especially sacred. If that is indeed what happened, the college would be
exposing themselves to a lot of risk.

I would highly encourage anyone feeling depressed to seek counseling, and for
the most part school mental health services are a safe and welcoming place to
find help. With that being said, DO NOT share information about your mental
health status with non-medical staff at school, as they are not bound by the
same rules as physicians and can act on that information. My (unsubstantiated
and hopeful) guess is that this is likely what actually led to this student's
dismissal.

~~~
cjbprime
selimthegrin is correct below -- HIPAA does not apply to on-campus mental
health services, and there are many ways for therapy records to be shared with
the campus administration via FERPA, even against the consent of the
therapist.

It's a terrible loophole that needs to be closed. In the meantime, it seems we
can't in good conscience encourage people to use their on-campus counselors
for mental health crises. (And the off-campus counselors are going to be more
expensive, such that people you warn off the on-campus ones might just get no
help at all.) :/

Here's an example of a college administration obtaining therapist records to
use in their legal defense, under FERPA after the student sued them:
[http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2015/03/09/391876192/college...](http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2015/03/09/391876192/college-
rape-case-shows-a-key-limit-to-medical-privacy-law)

~~~
Thriptic
Holy shit, I retract my statement. How has this not been addressed yet? I will
write my congressman this weekend about this issue.

------
baldfat
Such a HORRIBLE TITLE. It was not to counseling at the College. The college
threw him out of the college grounds with a meeting with a dean and 5 staff
and the students mother.

My brother killed himself 35 years ago last week. GO GET HELP! Go speak with
someone and go to a doctor or counselor. I love my brother and miss him
everyday, but suicide is the biggest middle finger to everyone you know and
love. It hurts the people you never wanted to hurt. Please get help not just
for yourself but for those who love you.

~~~
AnDowNS
Yes, go get help. But, as with HR, school psychologists exist --at least in
part-- to protect the school. Finding your own psychologist may help ensure
that they are motivated by your best interests, not the schools.

~~~
baldfat
Check yourself into a hospital and get things started that way. The doctors,
nurses and case workers will help you get everything setup for you and you
will have the ability to get the required help right away.

But don't go down that road alone. let someone in your life know you are
having these problems and are getting help. Being alone on that journey is
difficult. The big thing is taking that risk with being vulnerable with
someone.

~~~
thaumaturgy
> _Check yourself into a hospital and get things started that way. The
> doctors, nurses and case workers will help you get everything setup for
> you..._

I've had two different close family members admitted to a hospital for
suicidal intentions. In both cases the treatment at the hospital made matters
worse, not better. One was 5150'd (in the state of California a patient can be
taken by force to a mental health facility and held there against their will
for an unspecified period of time if they are determined to be a threat to
themselves or others), the other was nearly 5150'd. They were heavily sedated
and given a bed at one facility or the other, medicated further, and then
released without follow-up.

In both cases the takeaway for the people involved was that they never wanted
to go through that again -- so next time (and there was a next time, and a
time after...) they would hide it from other family members or threaten
themselves or others if anyone contacted law enforcement or tried to take them
to a hospital.

"Go get help" is extraordinarily difficult to actually do. The help available
is almost always more concerned about short-term liability instead of long-
term health.

------
appleflaxen
This title is terrible.

The real point is that the policies of William and Mary might lack a certain
degree of humanity, and that, as a human being, Ian Smith-Christmas was
utterly unsupported by an institution whose mission is helping young adults
develop into well-rounded individuals.

After reading the reply from the VP of student affairs, I am fairly willing to
believe it. Rather than acknowledge the core point of the narrative, the VP
replies with "people are complicated; here are some numbers" that might or
might not mean anything.

~~~
phkahler
The author is trying not to place any blame on the school, but they clearly
deserve some.

~~~
baldfat
The title makes it out that counseling he received was what harmed him making
it appear that getting help was a bad idea.

~~~
phkahler
There's also some self-blame going on "I with I hadn't..."

------
GolfyMcG
I can recall several people from my own college experience who sound just like
the brother in the article. They seemed happy on the surface but when in an
intimate setting, reality came out. The intimate setting for us was our
fraternity meetings where brothers would bring up that they were have personal
problems. Frequently they would share a lot details. I think it was probably
one of the best examples of a community coming together to help people without
getting recognition and wasn't all just drinking and partying.

Something I've always wondered though is where this stemmed from. I find it
unusual that both children from this one family happened to have problems with
depression. Perhaps it's a coincidence but I often times wonder if depression
really stems from hardship or if it's something less complicated than that.
Many of the people who talked about having mental health issues in our
fraternity were VERY well off. In fact, between all the people I've known in
my life to struggle with mental health the most common attribute I remember
was having two parents that worked despite having the means for one of them to
stay home. Perhaps my observations are entirely coincidental but it's always
seemed that these people needed more attention than anything else. As a
result, just having a place for people to talk openly was immensely valuable.
Our university had something called "A Place to Talk" where they were trained
to be active listeners and not give advice. It's hard to actively participate
in conversation without expressing your opinion but that's what they did. I
really think they saved lives and probably money on a regular basis.

~~~
blt
I feel strongly that depression runs in families. a majority of my family has
been depressed at one time despite no major hardships or tragedies. I don't
know if it's genetic or based on learned attitudes, but the idea that you need
a good reason to be depressed is completely wrong.

~~~
GolfyMcG
You seem to find the idea of finding a "good reason" to be depressed a bad
thing. I disagree. A lot of the skepticism around depression (and most mental
health problems) stems from a lack of concrete knowledge about the cause and
effect. We should be striving to use science and objective reasoning to
determine the real causes of depression otherwise we won't be able to (1)
accurately determine who really needs help in a world of limited resources and
(2) provide a real solution. We should try to be understanding in the meantime
but we shouldn't just accept that anyone can be depressed if they say so.

------
stegosaurus
I don't think we're ever going to get to the bottom of mental illness until
people in positions of power develop empathy.

Firing someone, banning them from campus, chasing them for masses of debt, and
so on and so forth are things that make people desperate. Until we can fix
that, this is just going to happen again and again.

And no, that doesn't mean living in some sort of happy joy world in which
everyone keeps their job forever and passes all of their exams.

It means living in a world in which failure doesn't mean complete loss of
everything. A world which isn't 'get rich or die trying'.

------
arfliw
I have a friend currently struggling hard with this. They know that going to
the school for help is not an option for this exact reason. They are going to
be looking out for the school first and the student second. That's really
unfortunate because the school has everything in place to be able to help the
most.

I'm at a loss for how to help, beyond just being there as much as possible.
They are doing all they can to get better, seeing a psychiatrist, taking
medications etc -- but they are still having suicidal thoughts on a daily
basis.

~~~
Jtsummers
Be present for them. Just having a friend present in my life literally stopped
me from ending it. In my case I remembered the feeling I had when a girlfriend
had tried to kill herself a few days after a date with me. I didn't want to
cause that pain to my friend. This gave me enough pause to get rid of my means
of suicide and go get help. Be open with your friend, but don't pry. If they
don't want to talk about something trying to force them to may only cause them
to push you away. If you've had any issues (physical, mental) that you haven't
discussed with them, considering opening up to them about it one day. If they
know that you trust them with your issues, it may help them to talk more
openly to you about theirs. This isn't 100%, it doesn't work for everyone, but
finally having a close friend I felt I could confide in helped me turn myself
around.

I hope things work out for both of you. And please understand, whatever
decision your friend makes is theirs. You can only help them so much.

~~~
arfliw
Thanks.

>whatever decision your friend makes is theirs

That's the hardest part. I know that logically but they are alive now. And I
know there is a real chance they could wind up taking their own life at some
point. I want to fucking prevent that from happening. It's a helpless feeling
knowing that I can't. At least not with any degree of certainty.

------
blt
a person close to me had a similar experience in high school. she attempted
suicide, and afterwards the school wanted nothing to do with her. they didn't
let her go on the class trip. they say they are protecting the other students.
clearly fear of litigation is a factor. but I also think the institutions
don't want "people like that" in their culture. they would prefer to continue
believing their institution is made of hard working positive people. lack of
empathy is the ultimate cause.

------
im3w1l
This will cause people to suffer in silence rather than seek help. Her brother
may not even be the only casualty.

------
UK-AL
A lot of things that seem like they should be helpful, are in-fact just ass
covering for the organisation.

HR, Health & Safety officers, etc

------
cozzyd
I wonder if there's academic literature on efficacy of university mental
health policies. Not all families are supportive or understanding of mental
illness and the ensuing disruption of someone's routine can easily make things
worse. What good is a counseling service if there's a non-trivial chance that
they'll tear what's left of your life fabric apart?

------
emodendroket
Well that's cruel and insane.

------
cmdrfred
If we are going to be looking into what William and Mary clouda shoulda woulda
done to prevent this isn't it only fair to do the same in regards to this
individuals own family? I mean as this is written by a member of said family
don't we need a counterpoint? Also with all the people saying that W&M are
just 'covering their asses', do you believe that they should be held liable
for the intentional actions of their adult students?

~~~
mcherm
> as this is written by a member of said family don't we need a counterpoint?

I overlooked it when I first read the article, but after the family member's
story is a response by the vice president for student affairs. Read it to see
their perspective.

> with all the people saying that W&M are just 'covering their asses', do you
> believe that they should be held liable for the intentional actions of their
> adult students?

I don't understand what you are saying here. I suspect that W&M's actions
(like immediately banning the student from campus, and resisting having him
return even after receiving a doctor's bill of good mental health) were
motivated by "covering their asses". Of course I do not believe that W&M
should be held liable for the actions of their students... nor have I seen
anyone suggesting that. Did I misunderstand what you were trying to say?

~~~
cmdrfred
I don't think you can be considered to be 'covering your ass' on a situation
that you are not liable for. Please explain that to me.

~~~
Jtsummers
Politics and image. Even if they're not liable in any civil or criminal sense
for his behavior or treatment, a student suicide on campus would be bad for
business. It brings unwanted publicity to the school, and a lot of nosy
reporting (though it may not last long).

But even if they're not liable, they're still, to some extent, responsible for
the students at their university. 18-22 year olds are adults, but many are
still developing emotionally and have just moved from living at home and the
K-12 educational model into an environment where they're expected to be
independent and fully self-responsible, and the academic work is likely far
harder and more stressful than anything they've ever experienced before. It's
a transition period and the university is, rightly or wrongly, viewed as a
pseudo-guardian during this time. If they don't provide the image of
performing this role, then they'll be viewed poorly.

~~~
cmdrfred
Being an adult is a boolean not a integer, either you are responsible for
yourself or you aren't. If you aren't other people get to make decisions for
you (because you aren't intelligent enough/emotionally mature/whatever), if
you are you get to decide for yourself but you alone face the consequences.
It's time for this generation, my generation to get off the fence (AKA their
parents couch) and decide, are you an adult or not? If no, put down the
alcohol, and e-cigarette until you are.

~~~
DanBC
> Being an adult is a boolean not a integer, either you are responsible for
> yourself or you aren't.

Edit{snip}

"Capacity" is variable. Someone may have capacity to feed themselves but not
to make financial decisions. They might have capacity to give assent, but not
consent, for surgery, but have capacity to give consent for other medical
treatment.

When you remove capacity you should restrict that to the minimum actions you
need to take to protect that person from harm.

Of course, that's all England which operates to European human rights laws
which operates to international human rights treaties. Things might be
different in the US.

------
lasdfas
I don't see how W&M did anything wrong here. It is very common for students to
take time off because of mental health issues. Especially if he was at risk of
committing suicide. I know several students at my college who were forced to
take time off and it ultimately helped them. They didn't have to worry about
the stress of school.

The school didn't call to see how he was doing? I have never heard any school
doing that. He was only out of school for less than 2 months.

The last suggestion that he killed himself because he was not readmitted in a
timely matter. Remember, de was admitted less than a month later. This wasn't
some year long process.

It is a very sad story and the sister is looking for someone to blame, but I
see the school did nothing wrong here. The implication that you shouldn't seek
college counseling for fear of taking time off is very dangerous. It is
important for people to seek counseling as soon as they feel they need it.

~~~
onion2k
The reaction of the college was all about covering themselves rather than
helping a student. Banning someone from the college grounds is not helping
them take time off - it's making sure nothing happens that you might be held
responsible for. Legally and technically they might not have done anything
"wrong", but morally and socially they couldn't have been farther from doing
the right thing.

~~~
lasdfas
If the student is at risk of suicide, there are times when they need to seek
professional help away from school. He could be a danger to himself or others.
I think you are making it black and white. "If the student wants to stay at
school, let them." It is not as simple as that. Think about it from the other
perspective. If he killed himself at school and they knew he had serious
mental health issues, people would be way more up and arms. "The school did
nothing!"

~~~
scott_s
There is a wide gulf between, "We think it's best for you to take a leave of
absence from school" and "Banned from campus". There is a difference between
working with a student, and exiling them.

~~~
talmand
While true, we unfortunately live in a world where you will likely be damned
no matter what choice you make.

