
The Disadvantages of an Elite Education - gabriel
http://www.theamericanscholar.org/the-disadvantages-of-an-elite-education/
======
pradocchia
I attended an elite prep school, took two years off and then enrolled at my
local state university. A few thoughts:

1\. _You are the future leaders of America_ : I heard this frequently, and
never understood the import, really. I get uncomfortable when too many people
_agree_ with me, let alone _do what I say_. Why would we all aspire to
leadership? And where does that leave me, stranger to my own cohort?

2\. The gap years between high school and college were great. I met a
Stanford-cum-Oxford philosophy grad who had dropped out and was traveling the
world. I had just had a few philosophy classes in senior year. So while he
rolled the joints, I asked about Hume, and Popper, and Watts. Yes, I forgot
most of the details.

3\. Any decent university will have a few excellent professors somewhere,
starving for good students. Be one! On account of my time off, I tested out of
all the lower-level requirements and went directly into upper-level seminars
with at most 10 other students but usually 2-3. I attended and presented at
conferences as a sophomore. It was _awesome_. I already had a decent education
from high school, but damn did it get better.

4\. Many of my friends and family were quite concerned about my choice of
colleges. A middling state school? I often felt the need to explain or justify
myself, though in retrospect it would have been better just to talk about all
the exciting things I'd been doing, rather than apologize for poor
appearances.

[edited for style]

~~~
DTrejo
Wait, tell us more!

What made you stop going to the elite school?

Did you have any tricks to help you find those excellent professors?

What other exciting things?

~~~
pradocchia
The short answer is that I didn't get into Stanford, and I couldn't justify
the cost of other schools. I'd already had the liberal arts education so I
didn't need to do that again. I wasn't sure what I wanted to study, didn't
want to be doctor or a lawyer, but I also wasn't ready to drop out all
together. The state school was cheap, had lots of graduate programs so I knew
there would be something interesting to do. And I could always transfer out
after a year or two with a perfect GPA.

But once I got there and compared notes with my prep school friends who were
already in their junior year at various big name schools, I realized I had a
good thing going and that transferring out wasn't so attractive after all. If
I really needed a pedigree later on, I could acquire one in graduate school.

The long answer (?) is that while one half of my family is highly educated,
the other half is comprised of tradesmen and small business owners with little
formal education. I had a choice--I could have gone to Harvard, had that been
my goal. I had all the prerequisites and could have traded on family
connections if need be. I had the option, and I opted out. That's a lot easier
than standing outside the gates and saying "I don't need this," even though
they never would have let me in anyway. I am not that strong.

re: professors

It's much easier to find and get the attention of good professors when you are
a big fish in a little pond. They will find you. Obscure departments are
better than big name ones, but even a comp-sci department will have plenty to
offer once you get past the hazing. At a no-name school, you trade duller
classmates for better access to the faculty. There were a few good students at
my university to be sure, but outside the upper level and graduate classes,
the mediocrity was astounding. At least I didn't go in expecting big things!
Elite schools can be really disappointing that way.

re: exciting things

This wasn't my route, but two years at a Jesuit monastery somewhere in Europe
could be pretty exciting. You could learn Latin and the local language, work
alongside the monks (?), and quiz them on their studies. Philology, the
precursor to modern linguistics, is very interesting but has high barriers to
entry (multiple classical languages). Fields like that are self-selective.

Italy has lots of small scale yet sophisticated manufacturing, so that would
be an obvious direction were you so inclined. Lots of legal hurdles but it can
be done. Take that back to college and you'd be in a class by yourself.

~~~
ShabbyDoo
++1;

>It's much easier to find and get the attention of good professors when you
are a big fish in a little pond. They will find you.

I spent what was ostensibly my senior year of high school attending a mediocre
20K student state university near my hometown. Then, after high school
graduation, I went to a slightly better private university.

At the state school, it wasn't hard to be noticed by professors in even large
lecture classes. I was known as one of the people who showed up to class
regularly. And, with little study, I was able to regularly get one of the
highest grades in my classes. This is not a testament to my abilities in any
sense -- it is evidence of the abysmal level of intellect and interest
displayed by the student body as a whole.

Professors in several departments asked me if I would consider their field for
a major because _I was obviously so interested and talented_. What made them
think this? I showed up to class, filled out multiple-choice tests well, and
occasionally stopped by for office hours with a interesting question. My level
of competence would make me average at a better school, and this was indeed
proven out when I went to engineering school.

What I did find was that the honors program at this school was actually quite
good. The best professors taught honors classes, and much attention was paid
to those students. So, there are niches of goodness, even in places like this
school. Furthermore, some of the faculty were indeed quite good in their
fields, so there was opportunity to learn from competent folk.

------
gurtwo
I grew up and live in Europe. English is not my native language. When I was a
teenager, the words Stanford, MIT or Ivy League were totally alien to me. In
fact the world and the metaphor they represent were all unknown to me.

I wish I knew of their existence, but nothing in my environment prepared me
for being one of their students.

So of course these institutions are for an elite. Not everyone gets the same
opportunities, because not everyone is even aware of those opportunities.

A sense of sadness suddenly shocks you when you realize it's too late for
entering in the circle.

The article and the comments here are mostly American-biased. In fact, HN is
many times very American-biased. There's nothing wrong about it, but please
realise it.

~~~
travisjeffery
There are equivalents for nearly everything.

The word MIT, Stanford and Ivy League are simply in your words Oxford and
Cambridge. That's your issue.

------
johnnybgoode
1) We live in a plutocracy.

2) The Ivy League (along with the university system as a whole) is an
important part of it.

If you accept these two things, and you're anything like me, this makes you
angry. Ironically, if you asked someone who attends an Ivy, they'd probably
tell you they're in favor of a classless society.

~~~
jacobolus
Being from a solidly middle class family (my mother is an elementary school
teacher) puts me at the 10th or 15th percentile by family income at Harvard.
The Ivies are indeed institutions mainly for the wealthy and the super-
wealthy.

I'm not sure that most people you ask at Harvard would favor a "classless
society". A distressingly large percentage of them want to go join a financial
consulting firm or hedge fund and make as much money as they can right out of
school.

~~~
ryanwaggoner
_A distressingly large percentage of them want to go join a financial
consulting firm or hedge fund and make as much money as they can right out of
school._

Why is this distressing?

Few people really want a true "classless society". I'd assume that few of the
founders on HN plan on donating 100% of all income they earn above the median
level.

~~~
sho
_"Few people really want a true "classless society". I'd assume that few of
the founders on HN plan on donating 100% of all income they earn above the
median level."_

There's a difference between believing that a classless society is a worthy
goal and, noticing that one is not currently in a classless society and that
being in an above average class has certain benefits, seeking to achieve an
elevated class for the time being.

I would like to think I am a fairly strong believer in a classless post-
scarcity utopia, but giving away most of what I own is not going to bring that
any closer - all I'd be doing is reducing my own power to act. Better to
retain it for now and use it to work towards the long term goal.

Sounds self-serving, maybe, but what can you do?

~~~
Ardit20
Why would you want a classless society? Isn't that communism?

~~~
three14
Not at all. You can be a happy capitalist with lots of money without being
_different_ in a "qualitative" way from your poorer neighbors. At least in
principle.

~~~
ryanwaggoner
Actually, that's really not true. A classless society refers to a society
which lacks any distinctions of wealth, income, education, culture, or social
network.

------
dschobel
My sympathies to the author, that is one mixed up dude.

What kind of person (at 35 no less) still identifies so strongly with the
school they attended as an 18 year old?

And to be wracked with guilt about it?

And to blame his schooling for his inability to speak to the plumber?

This is nothing short of neurotic.

~~~
Daemmerung
Neurotic indeed. The author was born in 1964 (source:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Deresiewicz>), which makes him the same
age as me. Thus we probably attended Yale as undergraduates at the same time.
Yet I recognize absolutely none of the dynamics that he describes. It is never
quite clear what he is narrating from his own remembered student experience
versus what he is surmising from observing Lit students around him.

Now, I didn't attend an elite prep school (quite the converse), nor did I
remain in the academy after graduating (no loss for the academy, given my
GPA...). So perhaps I received a subtherapeutic dose of whatever has saddled
him with such despair. But I have no problem communicating with my fellow
rural firefighters, a merry mix of garbagemen, carpenters, surveyors,
innkeepers, pastors, snowplow repairmen, and the occasional stray programmer.
I can take commands from an irrigation pipe salesman or a backhoe operator.
They can do things I can't do, while I can do things they can't do; there is
mutual respect. Occasionally they tease me for employing a sixty-four dollar
word when a ninety-eight cent word would do, but we maintain communication,
and we value our differences.

Certainly, my experience as as member of the pampered elite must have been
very different from his. Am I the outlier, or is he?

~~~
dschobel
Ah he's an academic (per your wikipedia link).

That explains a lot. That is the land where pedigree is everything, especially
so in the humanities.

No wonder the poor guy is so confused, enough time in the ivory tower and he
actually started to believe the company line.

Not to bash on academia exclusively, I've seen the same thing from friends in
the legal industry.

I think it applies to any industry where reputation and prestige is paramount.

------
alexgartrell
This isn't a problem of the ivy leagues (or any college, the one I attend
included). The problem is that society makes everyone think that they're the
best at everything. Thinking "I couldn't possibly have anything to talk about
with this 'common man'" is just an extension of this arrogance.

People don't unlearn to relate to people in good Colleges, they just never
knew in the first place.

Edited to add: LOTS (if not most) of people at 'elite' Colleges know how to
relate to 'average' people.

~~~
dbul
There is at least one college which attempts to beat the arrogance out of you
(see don rag), St. John's College.
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Johns_College,_U.S.>)

At the end of sophomore year, the tutors at the college decide whether you
belong there. Hubris is probably a strong reason for kicking out a student,
though over two years humility is strengthened in most.

------
biotech
"I suddenly learned that I didn’t have the slightest idea what to say to
someone like him."

It's really not that difficult: watch sports. For men, it's the easiest
icebreaker. A plumber in Boston? Chances are good he knows that the Red Sox
swept the Tigers this week. There ya go - instant conversation.

Like I said, this tends to work for men. As for talking to women... I'll let
somebody else handle that one.

~~~
kirubakaran
Yeah, and most people will appreciate the fact that you are making an effort
and they will help you out in continuing the conversation. Not that hard
really...

------
smanek
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=224861>

~~~
gabriel
Uh oh. Honest mistake. I must have typo'd my search for this article before I
posted it.

~~~
quizbiz
I thank you for bringing new eyes to an old article anyways.

~~~
gabriel
You're welcome! And here I was half expecting chaos to ensue the next time I
checked in :)

------
gsastry
Yale isn't nearly as bad as this guy claims. There're enough people who have
plumbers as parents that it's easy enough to talk to anyone...

~~~
psyklic
I'd say it depends on the person -- but if you want to withdraw from regular
society, then you can.

~~~
ryanwaggoner
Haha...I _love_ the irony of seeing this comment on HN, where the average
employed reader probably makes double the median US household income and many
of the rest are entrepreneurs trying to make millions in a few short years of
hard work.

~~~
sho
I voted you back up, because it's important to bear this in mind. This is not
your regular crowd, the _vox populi_ here is not remotely representative.

 _"the average employed reader probably makes double the median US household
income"_

I'd clarify this to be relative to local conditions, taking into account the
fairly large foreign readership (of which I am a part!) but it's probably
about right. Do I smell a salary survey poll coming on ..

------
sown
A contrapositive of this situation is sometimes you get judged as being
inferior if you don't have have some fancy ivy league degree. Or maybe that's
just my own inferiority complex speaking or a combination of both. I dunno.

~~~
johnnybgoode
No, you're right. This is a big part of it.

College degrees today are titles of nobility, thanks to state support. Yeah, I
thought we abolished those, too.

~~~
dschobel
A title of nobility that has to be earned and is available to anyone with
adequate grades? I don't think that analogy holds much water.

~~~
Ardit20
A title of nobility that is granted. I do not know about Harvard, but Oxford
which I will assume is not so much different, has most of its graduates from
private schools, especially Eton college seems to be their favoured. These
kids, due to having the badge of Oxford are quite favoured in the highest
ranks of law, politics, etc. I kind of wonder how much different is the
teaching in oxford from any other university and if it is so different then
why do other universities not adopt their system.

Very few people from other backgrounds go to oxford, therefore it is quite a
good analogy i'd suggest.

~~~
adw
I've got to disagree.

Around half of UK-national Oxford students come from state schools
(<http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article4027010.ece>), and as that
article says, that's at least in part because teachers scare their kids away
from applying because of the very perception you're espousing.

What's more, independent schools are a very varied lot. The vast majority of
the independent sector is day schools which are effectively high-end grammar
schools with a strict dress code. I'm not going to pretend there isn't an
advantage to going to one, but they're not substantially better than the best
schools in the state sector: that's borne out by the statistics.

The teaching in Oxford and Cambridge is much more intense, and has a much
greater emphasis on one-to-one and one-to-two teaching than any other Britihs
university. That's where the real advantage lies; the reason it's not adopted
elsewhere is that it's eyewateringly expensive. (The odd legal status of
Oxford and Cambridge, historically, was at least in part to support the cost
of the tuition system).

The problem with Oxford and Cambridge is one of perception rather than
reality. The kids who get the grades (think 1600 SAT for our American
friends), and who apply, have a decent chance of getting in.

------
known
I think a successful ENTREPRENEUR is worth 10 MBAs and 10 PHDs.

------
c00p3r
A+, A-, B+ - everything was "explained" in "Brave New World". "I'm glad that
I'm Beta..."

