
Your idea sucks Why don't we be more honest when networking at startup events?  - matbeeche
http://www.shoestring.com.au/2013/06/your-idea-sucks/
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dmitri1981
I have been proven wrong far too many times to believe that I am still in any
way a decent judge of what may be a good idea or viable startup.

The best example I can give here is from a few years ago when I was chatting
online with some startup folks. One of them was building a Twitter based app
where you would enter your tweets and it would post them at an interval you
specify. I believe my thoughts at the time were that it must be the lamest
idea I ever came across. Fast forward a few years and that startup, now known
to the world as Buffer, is making over a million dollars a year and growing at
a crazy rate.

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sillysaurus
A million a year, just from that? How?

~~~
iconfinder
Subscriptions.

~~~
sillysaurus
Are you sure? They don't seem to mention subscription pricing on
[http://bufferapp.com/](http://bufferapp.com/)

I can't verify that myself since I don't want to link their app to my
linkedin.

~~~
nl
Scroll down and there is a link to plans:
[http://bufferapp.com/awesome](http://bufferapp.com/awesome)

$19/month

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onion2k
It's very, very hard to judge whether an idea actually sucks from the elevator
pitch, especially if the person giving it isn't experienced and confident
about pitching. If we went around saying other people's _idea_ sucks we'd most
likely be saying their _pitch_ sucks - they didn't communicate it well enough.
That's a problem, but it probably isn't the end of the world.

I think the key thing to remember is that you very rarely "get" something that
might be a groundbreaking innovation the first time you hear about it, so
holding back on criticism and judgement until you've heard a bit more isn't a
bad strategy.

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Swizec
Why don't we tell people their ideas suck?

Well here you are, talking to somebody who's spent months thinking about
something from every angle imaginable. And you've given it five minute's
thought. Who are you to say their idea sucks? You know _nothing_ about it.

A much better approach is to ask questions. Don't say "your idea sucks", ask
"Do you have any users?", don't say "your idea sucks", ask "What sort of
growth have you found?" and so on. Eventually you will hit a question where
the person doesn't know the answer. Congratulations, you've just helped
somebody improve their idea.

~~~
mgkimsal
If I know nothing about it, I'll say so. That said, if it's a consumer-facing
idea, I likely _have_ thought about it, at some point, often before some of
the people I'm talking to were even in high school. Many ideas keep coming
around every few years, and people without any sense of history at all may be
doomed to repeat it (instead of potentially avoiding the mistakes of previous
efforts in the same area).

There's plenty of things I've missed, and I'm not at all any prescient genius
at this, but I've been approached by people with 'great ideas' who 'just need
someone to build it for them'.

One example from last fall - I liked the idea, but told them they were going
to have lots of legal hurdles with the IP and content, and they assured me
they wouldn't. Three months later, they told me they were having legal issues
with the IP and content. They could have pressed on, but chose not to, because
they wanted to finish up school instead. I think they also realized why this
'great idea' isn't being done - it's not because no one thought about it, or
that it was some great insight, it's that it's hard to do because much of the
content they want is tied up in legal issues.

But... wow - how about that? I looked at the problem for 5 minutes and saw
issues they hadn't seen in 12 months of thinking about the problem. Why is
that? Maybe because I've been working professionally for 20 years, and they
were still in college? Certainly not claiming I'm smarter or more clever, but
simply that _sometimes_ having more experience in some areas lets you see
issues that the person hooked on the idea hasn't seen (or doesn't want to
see).

Your point about questioning is fine, to a point (no pun). Asking too many
leading questions can make you come across like a jerk too.

~~~
Swizec
> can make you come across like a jerk too

Well, yes. Anything you do can make you look like a jerk if you do it in a
jerky way.

And as you point out, sometimes you simply have more experience in an area
than the founders do. Obviously there are cases where this will happen and you
can immediately tell the idea stands on shaky ground.

But in general that's not the case in "Hey I have this cool idea"
conversations.

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lifeisstillgood
Its not up to _other people_ to validate your startup. That's your job.

If you cannot get that feedback because you are _waiting for them to break the
rules of social behaviour_ , then all the other problems of running a startup
are simply going to flatten you.

Here are some ideas I only half-heartedly do myself:

1\. Have a website with a mailchimp mailing list on it. Ask them to subscribe.
Hell, enter their email in front of them right there and then - then wait. If
they confirm, they liked your idea, if not they did not.

2\. Have a mock-up online and a description. Email people a link to it, with a
unique tracking code. If someone clicks the link, they liked your idea.

3\. have a MVP and ask them to use it. email them a username and password. If
they use it - they liked it.

Basically, waiting around for other people to give you feedback is like
waiting around for them to give you money. Ask for the sale.

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girvo
At ilab in Brisbane last year, I was honest when I came across some people's
ideas: if they'd been attempted (seriously, with actual execution) before and
had no luck, I pointed that out. If the idea wasn't fully formed yet, I
chatted to other founders about what it was missing, from what I could see.

A lot of Australian founders really didn't like that for the most part, but a
couple (whom I'm now friends with!) took it really well, pivoted, or decided
to do something else entirely, and they thanked me for the feedback (and the
feedback of the mentors that said similar things!).

Mentors giving feedback like that was often met with incredulity and hurt.
"You are NOT your idea" is really important, but I have a theory that
Australia's (especially Brisbane!) startup scene is so small, and so
fledgling, that we're still learning :)

For what it's worth, I was told my idea was good, but my numbers (which were
realistic, based on exits from companies that were similar but not the same,
about $6-9mil after 2-3 years) were said to be too small for venture capital
to try.

VC's and investors in Australia are also learning, and are a lot less willing
to give an idea money to try. But that's okay! Things will change, given time
and effort.

~~~
6ren
This is harsh: I visited a company town once, and it struck me that Australia
is like a giant company town. Our wealth comes from mining and farming, and
the owners share enough to keep things humming. Result: a good life, risk not
needed, non-conformity not appreciated.

In comparison, US is more entrepreneurial and SV more so - but to be fair,
it's more entrepreneurial than _anywhere_ , and even it suffers from risk-
aversion and echo-chamber conformity at times.

What do you think?

 _EDIT_ I don't think it's a question of tech or not (Australia is technically
highly capable and advanced), but of entrepreneurial or not. Our idea of
"entrepreneurial" is opening yet another mine, TV station or restaurant.

~~~
girvo
I agree entirely.

And it pisses me off. I live in Brisbane, and I love the people and the city,
but I will eat my hat (and film it for YouTube) if the Council/State Gov will
ever pump money into building up a proper tech sector here.

Melbourne is a little better, with their "hipster"-styled outlook; I guess
that's why it has a bit of hype in the start-up scene here in Aus (they have
anti-conformism, to a mild extent).

Sydney, well, there is innovation coming out of there. A number of startups,
and they do quite well, but it's a 5:1 ratio of B2B vs B2C startups, so you
don't get to _see_ the work being done, unless you are in a vertical they
target.

Maybe one day Australia will take tech seriously... until then, I'm biding my
time and saving up my personal runway to chase dreams elsewhere in the world,
like a lot of people my age.

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mhurron
> if the Council/State Gov will ever pump money into building up a proper tech
> sector here

Why is that the governments job?

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girvo
Governments make investments in infrastructure and other things to encourage
local business in particular sectors to come here. I'd like to see my city
take the forefront in courting IT in Australia.

Because local industry in Queensland is focused on pulling finite resources
out of the ground, which can only last so long before it must move somewhere
else. They're not interested in conquering problems that the rest of society
faces, and in my personal opinion, basing our state's long term future on the
sector (even if it is GREAT temporarily; for ex. my dad is a Civil engineer
working on the roads around the mines, makes over $1mil/yr revenue from his
business), is going to bite us in the arse.

Because of that, if Queensland and Brisbane wants to stop playing third fiddle
to Sydney and Melbourne on a local and world stage, then we need to start
doing something in the future.

~~~
mhurron
While I do believe that one of the functions of a government is to encourage a
diverse economy, I do not believe that it is the role of government to create
it. If there are people in (we'll use your example) Brisbane that are willing,
able and capable to begin to build a tech industry, they should. After that
has occurred, then the government is in a position to look at how it can best
encourage continued growth.

However, it may end up that Sydney is where Australia's tech industry takes
root and grows through natural activity and movement instead of Brisbane. This
is normal and it will happen. Not every city is 'world class' at everything,
it's really not possible.

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ry0ohki
Some of the worst, stupidest startups ideas I have ever seen, which obviously
will never make money and seem pretty easy to recreate in a weekend:

-Waze

-Twitter

-Instagram

-Tumblr

This is why I don't tell people their ideas suck, I'm a terrible judge of it.

~~~
kamakazizuru
i dont really see how you can recreate waze or tumblr in a weekend -
especially in their current shape. I guess being less arrogant will allow you
to be a better judge of startups ;)

~~~
ry0ohki
You couldn't recreate the traction, but imagine hearing the ideas in their
infancy... "Wait you want to create another blogging service?"

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DigitalSea
In my experience one mans "trash" is another mans "Twitter". Not liking things
is highly subjective and such I don't think people should be flat out telling
other people they think their ideas are rubbish because lets face it a pitch
for a service like Twitter; It's like text messaging, but on the Internet
instead — sounds lame when you put it like that, but look at Twitter nowadays,
a service that keeps growing and innovating and keeping itself relevant. It
was one of quite a few apps that were shot down but succeeded in the end
regardless of what others thought.

If someone tells you they're working on an Instagram for cat pictures or an
app that will play a random sound at an interval you specify, then yes, tell
them it's a horrible idea. But just because an idea sounds simple or has been
done before doesn't mean it will fail. It takes more than an idea to succeed.

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pedalpete
When twitter was first pitched, how many people would have said that the idea
sucked? What about airbnb? Kickstarter? pinterest? The list goes on and on.

VCs make money by betting that only 1 in 100 of their investments will be a
success. What makes you think that a random person at a start-up event will
have any more success.

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jordn
There are two good reasons why

1\. It's very difficult to tell what's a good idea or not. 'Not Invented Here'
syndrome is one reason why we think other people's ideas generally suck, but
in the end it's almost all down to execution.

2\. Startups are hard. It's much more useful to start out gung-ho with a
crummy idea, and then learn exactly why it's crummy and adapt than to be shot
down before take-off because the idea isn't perfect.

and one slightly less good reason:

3\. We want people to like us. It's hard to break down an idea and not breed
any resentment.

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jmacd
All ideas suck until they are products.

Then they either suck or they are awesome, but at least they are real enough
to be judged at that point.

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stevoski
It is not good manners to tell people that their idea, in your opinion,
"sucks". That's why.

I wouldn't tell them that, just as I wouldn't tell them that, in my opinion,
their clothing, haircut, or other aspects of personal appearance "suck". Nor
that any aspect of their personality "sucks".

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socialist_coder
It's the same thing in the gaming space. 99% of people's game ideas suck
(honestly, it's extremely difficult to have a non-shitty idea, especially if
you are trying to be unique and invent new game mechanics).

Part of the problem is that everyone thinks they can be a "game designer".
It's one of those skills that is not measurable; so if you suck at it, it's
hard to tell.

I think that as people gain maturity and experience, their eyes open, and are
more willing to give and receive criticism like this (hopefully). Another
reason why age and experience are valuable.

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ryanSrich
It goes both ways; the idea is of little significance. A great idea does not
guarantee success and a shitty idea does not guarantee failure.

Execute, understand your market, and make fucking money.

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sbarre
I don't tell people their ideas suck because the Internet has proven time and
time again that success is often less about the idea and more about the
execution.

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darrellsilver
Mostly because it's not productive. Ideas, especially early ones, are
malleable and changing. Saying it "Sucks" is like building a brick wall.
Instead you want to ask something that illuminates the way so the idea
improves.

That being said, first time entrepreneurs benefit most from this approach
while people more experienced can cut to the chase.

It's all about trying to be helpful.

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no_wave
Because it's in my interest not to tell them. What do I gain by telling them
their idea sucks? I have an uncomfortable interaction and I potentially make
an enemy, or at least someone who now finds it uncomfortable to be around me.

What do I lose by being "nice"? Nothing. How does it serve my interests to go
out on a limb and tell it like it is?

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jt2190

      > If an idea has already been done, lacks market demand 
      > or is plain crap should we not say something?
    

Let's invert this: Why are founders so likely to _believe_ that polite
throwaway comments from random people validate their business idea?

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czr80
I was reminded of this post, which I think makes a good case for humility:
[http://37signals.com/svn/posts/3124-give-it-five-
minutes](http://37signals.com/svn/posts/3124-give-it-five-minutes)

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kamakazizuru
because telling someone that something sucks is utterly useless. Try asking
constructive questions that will either lead you to realize that it doesnt
suck and that the 5 minutes of thought you put into it is orders of magnitude
less than the time and effort she/he put into it. Or you will get them to
stumble upon a perspective they haven´t yet considered and maybe find a
solution to it - or if it truly does suck - realize the same and spend time
figuring out what to do. Destructive criticism is utterly pointless in the
startup world - or anywhere for that matter.

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fidz
Reminds me to "How to give negative feedback effectively"

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4431289](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4431289)

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buro9
People aren't ready to hear what they aren't ready to hear.

And if they are, they probably know it already.

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michaelfeathers
So you are asking "Who will step up and be the Simon Cowell of startup
events?"

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captn3m0
Slightly off-topic, but the site can do with a better contrast scheme.

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mtowle
a) Honesty costs money. If somebody wants to tell you something for free, they
also want to do something else with/to you.

b) Networking events are for networking.

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mercurial
I don't know about your ideas, but your grammar, certainly.

