
Taarof - Petiver
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taarof
======
Johnny_Brahms
A friend of mine comes from Iran, and the first time he went to a school
meeting (his son was in the first or second grade) they offered sandwiches. He
was extremely hungry, but stressed out, so he forgot that he was in a
different culture. When they offered him a sandwich he politely turned them
down, expecting them to try two more times.

I sat next to him and watched the whole thing and found it hilarious. Had to
convince him he wouldn't seem extremely impolite if he appeared to change his
mind a ask for a sandwich anyway.

Before he learnt to speak English very well, we went to a lindy hop course
together. There he saw this beautiful woman (he was a widower), went up to her
and said to her what must have been a literal translation of a very nice thing
to say in farsi:

"You move and look like a very strong horse".

I showed wingman skills I never thought I had, and they are now happily
married.

~~~
smnrchrds
Any effort to formulate ta'arof is futile. The three times rule mentioned in
the article is an oversimplification. Ta'arof is a very subtle art and
understanding the difference between genuine and fake ta'arof and when to stop
is difficult at best. I am an Iranian and I still have trouble playing this
game. I hope I will figure it out sometime before my 50s.

By the way, that phrase doesn't ring a bell. Is it possible that your friend
is Azeri (Turkish), Kurd, or Arab? Because Farsi is not the only language
spoken in Iran and definitely not the only language in which you are expected
to ta'arof.

~~~
Johnny_Brahms
I asked him about it, and apparently he was just a bit socially awkward. He
told me he thought she looked like an arabic full blood horse and how he was
so fascinated by it. He just failed badly at expressing it as a compliment.

He is very much Iranian, and left because of political repercussions after the
"Green Revolution" made it impossible for him to work internationally.

~~~
smnrchrds
I am not questioning his nationality, I just asked about his ethnicity. I am
an Iranian national from Azari (Turkic) ethnicity. We are not exactly a
minority either. By some estimates more than 20 million Iranians are Azeri.
[1]

Fun Political Fact: The current supreme leader, Ali Khamenei, and the
currently incarcerated leader of the opposition (he was arrested after 2009
elections), Mir-Hossein Mousavi, are both Azeri. I just wanted to point out
that Azeris are by and large Iranian. We share most culture and costums, but
we have a different language and cuisine.

Fun Historical Fact: Azerbaijan and Iran have historically been the same
country. Safavid [2] and Qajar [3] dynasties which collectively ruled Iran for
~400 years were Azeri. It was less than 200 years ago that Iran lost half of
Azerbaijan to Russia in a war [4].

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnicities_in_Iran](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnicities_in_Iran)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safavid_dynasty](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safavid_dynasty)

[3]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qajar_dynasty](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qajar_dynasty)

[4]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Turkmenchay](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Turkmenchay)

------
geff82
Everybody who dares to compare Taarof to any western behavior has not
experienced the sheer intensity of it... It's unlike anything I know and takes
a good time to get accustomed to (husband of real grown-up-in-Iran persian
wife here...). In many cases, I find that at the end both parties do the
opposite of what they wanted due to taarof, so I think this thing is rather
difficult for Iranians, too, even if it is deeply ingrained to their minds.
Anyhow, Taarof is what makes Iranians so lovely to Westeners in the first
place (later you will find out that they, too, are just normal people).

~~~
lllllll
>> Taarof is what makes Iranians so lovely to Westeners in the first place
(later you will find out that they, too, are just normal people).

Interesting, could you elaborate on that pls? Just curiosity :)

~~~
geff82
Well, ask anyone how they think Iranians are (as long as they know some in
person) and almost always they will tell you something along the lines of
"Wow, they are so extremely nice, so polite and generous". But this is, to
some extend, a facade . The more you get to really know Iranians, you
understand that they too can be really mean to others, have their fights, say
bad things. They just do it in other, more indirect and complicated to
understand ways. And Iran is a country 100% operating on Taarof so you need a
lot of context to read the meaning of words. For example, once in Shiraz I was
offered some icecream by friends of the family and I was like "Yes, sure!".
Until this day, they laugh about it, because such directly accepting things is
uncommon there (and while otherwise aware of the customs, the possibility of
getting some icecream broke my barriers...). They think it's funny when
Westeners are direct like that because they, too, watch TV and know our way of
life. But if I had been Iranian, my reaction would have been unacceptable
unpolite. Along the lines of taarof, many misunderstandings occur that can
lead to bad blood in the end without anybody really wanting it in the first
place. There is no room for criticism, so things are not talked about and
never sorted out.

~~~
lllllll
Thanks, the word 'facade' is what came to mind reading your reply. Here in
Europe I've met several Iranians, though all happenned to have lived in
Western countries for many years. I am sure in those cases they are
_genuinely_ nice people, so no facades involved.

>> There is no room for criticism, so things are not talked about and never
sorted out

This resonates with traditional Catholic families too, where "elephants in the
room" are not really addressed/dealt with many times. E.g. a
daughter/granddaugter having a kid out of marriage etc.

~~~
lllllll
Ok I think the Persian people need a Post-Taroof Reformist League. Those
unspoken Taroof-ish concerns seem like obstacles that complicate their daily
lives (sigh). I command you to plant the reformist seed in their society :D

~~~
geff82
But you know...not everything is bad. Taarof makes actual travel to Iran
rather smooth and comfortable as people really try to help you the best they
can (as long as you have at least a small sense of what is too much, which you
get fast).

~~~
lllllll
That doesn't help the Iranians' lives! Other than getting more money injection
by increase of niceness-seeker tourism, hahah.

Joking, if it's like this and is not terribly linked to a religious dogma(
which doesn't seem to be, more like a cultural thing), I'm sure there's a
'raison d'être'(I believe natural selection applies to not-directly-biology-
linked entities such as societies). Maybe violent fights/discussions are more
prevented thanks to Taroof? That's a wild guess ofc.

~~~
geff82
Yes, you are right: taarof is entirely non-religious and practiced by
believers and atheists alike. I can't tell if it really prevents violent
conflicts. Maybe... I also don't know if it makes life easier due to some
standards of communication or if things get obfuscated and more difficult...
In the end, the only sure thing is: it is like that.

------
AriaMinaei
People sometimes mistake Iranian hospitality with taarof. I guess that happens
when they learn about taarof but don't understand it well enough to tell it
apart from genuine hospitality.

Fake taarof is usually given with words well known to mean as taarof. There
aren't many of those. If an offer is not given with those words, it's safe to
say that it's genuine.

A typical Iranian would be disappointed, even heartbroken, if his/her offering
gets construed as fake taarof.

As an Iranian, when you have guest, whether you've been expecting them or
you've just met them on the street, your job now is to make sure that they
have a good time. That means tasty food, entertainment, a place to stay,
safety, and good company. If you can't provide these, you simply don't offer.
And many people don't. Most don't have the financial means nowadays. Some
don't think that you would enjoy their company. Oddly, some people aren't
confident about their cooking skills.

But, as a tourist in Iran, if you do get an offer to stay at someone's house
or have dinner with them, it's generally safe to say that you can accept the
offer. And know that you wouldn't be a burden to them.

I can't speak for everyone, but most people that I know absolutely enjoy
taking care of a guest. And they'll have a good time if their guest is having
a good time.

------
mavdi
I'm Iranian. Taarof is the worst thing ever. Simple social interactions become
these meaningless and tangled situations. It's really hard to get things done.
Your average shopping in the market takes at least 50% more than it should.
Just going through a door as a group might take a few minutes.

I see it as an inefficiency. I'm sure there are a lot of Iranians who disagree
with me.

~~~
cylinder
Has its pros and cons. I like that when I am a guest, the host has a sense of
duty to ensure I have a good time, feel welcome, am well fed. I always feel
awkward when I show up at a non-Iranian's gathering and everyone, including
the host, just remains seated, don't get up to greet me, don't offer food
other than "there's food in the kitchen, help yourself."

------
abruzzi
The odd thing is the article references "who pays the bill" as the only
similar thing in western society, but most of the examples given (except
working without wages) sound like the polite society I grew up in. Perhaps not
to the same extent. I'll offer something to a friend, they'll refuse, I'll
insist. They'll refuse again if the really don't want what I'm offering, or
they'll accept if their refusal was just politeness.

~~~
namenotrequired
Similarly, even in my little and very western country of the Netherlands,
there are definitely places where this is part of the regular custom.

~~~
ngirardin
Same thing in France, and I think in most parts of Europe.

------
yitchelle
For someone like me who is borderline Asperger, this is a rather hard game to
take part in. I would sometime take it literally and accept their refusal, not
realising that this has caused offense. Other similar taarof exchanges were
not respected by me, causing further problems.

As you can imagine, this has causes unintended serious
problems/misunderstandings in our social circles.

~~~
meric
I hope the article is informative - just count out their refusals three times.

~~~
smnrchrds
That's an oversimplification of a very complex custom. There are no
mathematical rules. You need to understand the subtle undertone and leave a
margin of error to be sure. By the way, when someone says "Bi Ta'arof migam
..." (meaning "I say this without ta'arof"), it's still ta'arof.

OP, I feel your pain. There is no easy way around this.

~~~
yitchelle
No, there is no easy way around this. My kids are diagnosed with Asperger. my
heart aches when I see them missing social prompts and fail to form the social
bonds that are so important at their formative years.

When Google glass was first announced, I had hope that it would help with the
interpretation of underlying meaning of social interactions. I came to the
conclusion that the idea is there, but the technology is not.

------
nippoo
"It is possible to ask someone not to t'aarof ("t'aarof nakonid"), but that
raises new difficulties, since the request itself might be a devious type of
t'aarof."

I love the concept of "devious t'aarof"!

~~~
TeMPOraL
It's like meta t'aarof?

------
parham
I can tell you Taarof is one of the worst traditions us Iranians have, it's
like playing reverse poker.

Taarof is mostly based on context, with a stranger it's never genuine but with
within friends and family you will want to pull your hair out. You will begin
to pay for stuff just to skip the awkward Taarof, but will have no choice to
engage in it when the other person has to give in to the Taarof.

------
lkrubner
There is a (perhaps less intense?) version of this operating in the Slavic
nations. I notice it in Poland. Especially the rule of 3. A host offers you
food and drink 3 times, and you are suppose to refuse it a few times, and only
if they keep offering should you think that they are serious.

Likewise, if you have Poles over for dinner, you might ask "Would you like
more wine?" My American friends will say "yes" if they want more wine, but the
Poles will say "No". Then you have to insist, "Please have more wine!" and
they say "No" again, and this goes for a few rounds before they accept the
wine.

------
tragomaskhalos
The Irish equivalent, courtesy of the fabulous Mrs Doyle:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVH3IBr_Ipk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVH3IBr_Ipk)

------
davisclark
Hooman Majd's book, The Ayatollah Begs to Differ, is pretty interesting,
especially as it relates to ta'arof at the international level.

He argues that many of the seemingly bizarre comments and gestures made by
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, in diplomatic settings, can be understood when ta'arof is
taken into account.

There was also a fascinating article about ta'arof and diplomatic negotiations
in the New York Times:

[http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/06/weekinreview/06slackman.ht...](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/06/weekinreview/06slackman.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0)

“'In the West, 80 percent of language is denotative. In Iran 80 percent is
connotative.'

Translation: In the West, 'yes' generally means yes. In Iran, 'yes' can mean
yes, but it often means maybe or no. In Iran, Dr. Tajbakhsh said, listeners
are expected to understand that words don’t necessarily mean exactly what they
mean.

'This creates a rich, poetic linguistic culture,' he said. 'It creates a
multidimensional culture where people are adept at picking up on nuances. On
the other hand, it makes for bad political discourse. In political discourse
people don’t know what to trust.'"

------
mehdi_asgari
I'm an Iranian too. It's good that a Wikipedia entry is made to explain it (I
have explained it to my western friends multiple times in the past, now I can
refer them to this entry) I should also stress that Taarof in tiny doses is
not bad, but when you have to face it every day in different scenarios, it
becomes a recurring hassle. We're used to it!

------
rrrazdan
Coming from a part of India, that's really close to Persian culture, I can see
now where some of our customs come from. This combined with Indian customs of
etiquette and you have a society where the guest is considered God.

~~~
um304
I'm from Pakistan and I agree with you on it: now I know where some of our
customs come from.

------
owenversteeg
Hmm, that's really interesting. Does anyone know of any computer interfaces
where the computer demonstrates taarof (for example, "Have a $15 account
credit on us!" "No thanks" "No, I insist" "No thanks", etc.)? I don't mean in
the naggy fashion (a program suggesting something multiple times as an attempt
to hook the user) but out of an expectation that the user will follow taarof
and decline the first three times.

~~~
rdslw
There is in fact.

Port knocking to open a port (and a service behind it) which is presumably
closed at start.

oversimplification: CLIENT> POKE POKE SERVER> TCP RST, nothing to SEE HERE
CLIENT> POKE POKE POKE <SPACE> POKE POKE POKE (i insist in proper way) SERVER>
TCP ACK (I oblige)

More: [https://www.digitalocean.com/community/tutorials/how-to-
conf...](https://www.digitalocean.com/community/tutorials/how-to-configure-
port-knocking-using-only-iptables-on-an-ubuntu-vps)

------
AnonJ
Might come across as quite unbelievable for modern day western folks but
that's basically exactly what also happens in China and in general East Asian
countries. Totally archaic in the modern world and can become extreme
hinderances for frank discussions, collaboration and productivity. Fortunately
young people are gradually getting rid of those s __ __especially among
themselves but it 's sometimes quite bad that many people of previous
generations are still emphasizing those as civilized etiquettes, while in fact
it only breeds hypocrisy and miscommunication. This is also an example of
misunderstandings and conflicts between generations: some mundane members of
older generations simply don't really understand the more modern ideals of
young people, and from incomprehension stemmed suspicions and fear, which is
unfortunate and laughable. Some of them are also realizing the issue for sure
but the number is still small. The sooner it's gone in our culture the better.
I guess it takes time though just as it probably did in other places in the
world. Culture changes are always a kind of behind the socio-economic changes.

------
Shihan
In my farsi class we also once had a brief introduction into the concept of
Taarof. Never heard of it before and thought it is really interesting but I
understand that it sometimes can get a bit too much :-)

Here is a video that also explains it and shows some examples of Taroof:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5oX2n1-diA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5oX2n1-diA)

------
mjklin
This American Life segment on Taarof:

[http://youtu.be/IGG95Za7Pzo](http://youtu.be/IGG95Za7Pzo)

------
kelvin0
I can see how some of our North Americans customs may see alien to Iranians.
However the engineer in me cringes at the inefficiency of such exchanges ...
Oh well, when in Rome do as the Romans I guess.

------
nasir
I'm from Iran and was travelling there with a Spanish friend of mine. We took
a taxi to the airport for nearly 30km. The guy was really warm specially by
seeing a tourist and when we arrived there he was Taarofing and not accepting
the money and even saying it in a broken english that he doesn't want it. My
friend was convinced he won't get the money. Eventually he accepted it and
hugged us. I'm pretty sure if we hadn't payed him he would have kicked our
asses!

------
gshakir
This is very similar to Indian culture as well. People get upset if you don't
follow Taarof and suddenly won't talk to you without giving any apparent
reason. I have seen my Mom analyze social interactions post-mortem to derive
additional meanings on what was superficially discussed. If you ask me, this
is too much drama, I am (may be all of us) better off without it..:).

------
dagss
In Norway my grandma tells the same thing about life 50 years ago far into the
countryside -- she tells this funny story about somebody who was extremely
hungry after a long hike, but didn't eat as they were only implored to eat
twice, not three times. Granted she thought they were silly, I guess the
custom may have become more relaxed around then.

------
jhallenworld
This reminds me so much of George Alec Effinger's Budayeen cycle of cyberpunk
novels, though it's supposed to involve Arabic culture not Persian.

No doubt crass since it's a real thing, Taraaf sounds like an excellent and
fun mechanism for social interactions in fiction... now I'm going to look for
a book which demonstrates it...

------
0xFFC
Just curious , what's that suppose to mean in HN?

~~~
paganel
I found it interesting, and I think it has something to do with yesterday's
The Atlantic article about Indians not saying "thank you" as much as the
Americans or the English.

Now, about the article, and especially about this:

> T'aarof also governs the rules of hospitality: a host is obliged to offer
> anything a guest might want, and a guest is equally obliged to refuse it.
> This ritual may repeat itself several times (3 times)

the same "3-times" rule was also valid (and in some places it still is) in
rural Romania until not that long ago. More exactly, if you had been invited
to their table "only" once or twice by somebody else you had to say "no", only
the third time were you allowed to say "yes" (if you really wanted to). It
also created lots of awkward social situations after Communism fell and
foreigners (mostly Westerners) first came to Romania. Lots of them would
accept table invitations which were not really meant to be accepted on the
first go.

~~~
k__
> Indians not saying "thank you" as much as the Americans or the English

Yes, cultural differences are sometimes strange.

Here in Germany most people are rather short-spoken. So if a German is nice to
me, he probably likes me, otherwise he would not make the effort.

When I talk to English people, it feels like they are talking like Germans who
like me, even if they just are like this to everyone. This feels very strange
if I just met them or if they tell me unpleasant things. I often feel a bit
deceived.

~~~
stared
I think that there is some trade-off between "amigo" and "close friend"
barriers.

For some countries (Germany, Poland, ...) the initial contact is icy, but
after breaking the ice, it's easy to get straightforward to confessions,
biggest dreams etc.

For other (e.g. Spain, USA, ...) the initial contact is warm, but it is
somehow harder to became close friends (or at least - it's hard to tell).

At least for a Pole, it may work different way for different people. I am
curious if it is possible to get some objective data on it (any ideas?).

And, as a rare counterexamples, for me it was usually warm/easy for Italians
and cold/hard for the French.

Politeness is yet another layer, but not the same as warmth.

------
sgt
Did anyone else read: "[...] is a Persian form of civility emphasizing both
deference and social rank, similar to the Chinese art of etiquette, lmao"

------
hit8run
I didn't believe my eyes as I saw the wikipedia link to Taarof listed here :D
Even though as I am half persian it made me smile ;)

~~~
afshinmeh
Same feeling here

