

Ask HN: Company laid off IT workers but not H1B - throwaway5621

I and several of my coworkers were laid off from our jobs in IT a few weeks ago. We were all told that the layoff was due to the company's financials and was not related to our job performance.<p>After reading another Ask HN about H1Bs, it occurred to me that there was an H1B worker in our department that was not part of the layoff. It was my understanding that H1Bs were supposed to address talent shortages while still protecting local jobs. If it really had nothing to do with individual performance, was it legal for the company to lay off US citizens while keeping an H1B?<p>I already signed a severance agreement stating that I would not sue the company for any reason; plus, I have no grudge against the guy who was working under H1B, and would feel bad about doing anything to adversely affect him. So I doubt I have any options in any case. Just curious what you all think.
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devs1010
If you believe H-1B's are there to address a "talent shortage" I have a bridge
to sell you. Tech companies use them to lower costs and help to suppress the
wages of American workers. That said, makecheck is right, in that an employer
is sponsoring an H-1B so if they are laid off they may have to essentially be
deported. All, in all, I don't blame the people who come here on H-1B's but I
really feel that there are enough unemployed, under-employed or under-
developed workers here that could fill the jobs if there truly was an interest
in doing this.

~~~
makecheck
A talent shortage among U.S. citizens is actually quite feasible in high-tech
industries.

Consider the discussions on HN and Slashdot alone recently about salaries and
the value of degrees. If people really have been able to pick degrees that are
"simpler" than science or engineering and find jobs making six figures in the
U.S., it's not hard to imagine that companies might find it hard to hire
enough qualified workers for the "harder" disciplines. In a job like software,
the difference between an outstanding developer and an average one is orders
of magnitude, so it's very unlikely someone else can be trained properly.

Also consider, if there were no visas, companies might not have U.S. offices
_at all_. If you have an office of 500 people, 300 of whom are from other
countries, the cost of the U.S. office may be justifiable. But suppose you
weren't allowed to have foreign workers live here. The company isn't going to
say "okay, looks like we need a big office overseas to hold local talent and a
small office in the U.S."; they're more likely to say "screw that, let's put
our _one and only_ office overseas", and then you've just lost 200 U.S. jobs
completely.

It is a common misconception that the presence of non-U.S. workers will
definitely kill U.S. jobs. I can imagine that some companies in some
industries may have this issue on a small scale, but they do so illegally.

~~~
devs1010
I agree thats its a complex issue and I definitely am not for having no
foreign-born workers, the outstanding ones contribute a lot and I am
definitely in support of H-1B programs (or other programs) for entrepreneurs
who come here to start a business.

Regarding the degree question, frankly I think this is ridiculous, so an
American developer who proven work experience as a developer, without a
Bachelor's degree, is automatically ranked lower than an H-1B worker who has a
degree from a foreign institution? American employers aren't necessarily going
to be aware of the quality / legitimacy of a degree from a foreign
institution, hell, for all they know a degree from a college there could be
roughly equivalent to a high school degree here, with a few college-level
courses thrown in. I don't think I even know of a single person I work with
who has a degree in computer science, plenty have degrees in another subject,
but is this really making them better developers?

Overall, its a tough issue, I'm all for having some of the best and brightest
from other places come here, those who can come here and be a net-positive,
but, in my experience there are some who just come because they know its a
ticket to a better way of life and they aren't necessarily passionate about
what they do and generally don't have what I observe to be a strong work
ethic. On the other hand, some do and I have no problem with them being here.
Like any cross-section of people, no matter how "perfect" the system for their
admission to the U.S. seems to be, it is going to end up with a wide range in
skill-sets and therefore I feel it needs to at least be limited and watched
closely as undoubtedly they are going to take away some jobs, from some
American developers.

~~~
makecheck
I think you misunderstood what I said about degrees. I wasn't comparing
degrees from different countries, I was only comparing degrees acquired in the
U.S. by U.S. citizens.

Your original point was that there shouldn't be a shortage of talent in the
U.S.: that companies should be able to find enough U.S. workers for things
like engineering jobs. And I'm saying that there may not actually be enough
local talent; it depends on how many U.S. citizens choose the "hard" degree
programs that companies want.

There's lots of money to be made by U.S. citizens in certain sectors such as
finance. It's conceivable that some U.S. students would opt for an "easier"
degree if that still leads to a high-paying job; they may see no point in the
extra work of a "hard" program like science or engineering.

Clearly not all U.S. citizens do that, and those that do choose engineering
are just as employable, or more so, than immigrant engineers; I never said
they weren't.

~~~
devs1010
My point is that the number of people with engineering degrees in the U.S. is
not equivalent to the number of qualified, experienced software developers. As
many people work in software development who do not hold a computer science-
specific degree, a shortage of people obtaining these degrees should not be
used to justify importing foreign workers. That is basically the point I am
trying to make but its a complex issue and hard to fit into a few comments.
Unless a field has a licensing / credentialed program to qualify for
employment (from my understanding this is the case in the "hard" engineering
fields) then its my opinion that companies should not be allowed to
essentially freeze out Americans who do not hold degrees (but have relevant
experience) while, at the same time, importing foreign workers who have
foreign degrees. If they don't want to hire people without degrees, that is
their own decision to make, but they shouldn't get a "bail out" at the same
time by using the "degree argument" to justify importing cheaper labor.

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narendranag
Consider this: There are two types of H1Bs in the US. I'm in India, and I have
a bunch of friends who went to grad school in the US and were then hired to
work at different companies.

The only visa that they get is the H1-B. So, they can't start-up a business of
their own, or go work at a start-up. And I'm not sure they're taking American
jobs. They get paid the same as US citizens (trust me, they care :)

Then there are the IT chaps who get sent to the US as part of an outsourcing
contract. The guys themselves don't get hired — the company they work for
(Infosys, TCS etc.) is contracted to do some work and they send a bunch of
guys over.

It's called the software services industry and they have positioned themselves
as exporters of software in India. In recent times, this has come under some
scrutiny, with some sections arguing that they are exporting people and not
software. But the projects that they get can be really shitty — maintaining
legacy Cobol code and Oracle 1 databases. I don't know if that's work that
most Americans will be willing to take.

PS: I have never traveled to the US on an H1B. And I have never worked for any
software services company.

EDIT: for typos

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makecheck
I don't know if companies are allowed to let immigration affect their firing
decisions. But, in terms of how other human beings are treated, there _is_ a
difference for the holder of a temporary visa...

If an H-1B visa holder is laid off or quits, the visa immediately expires.
That leaves two main options: _almost immediately_ find another job (at a
company willing to spring for a new visa, no less), or _leave the United
States_ within a very short period of time. And when the economy is bad, good
luck with that first "option"; the replacement job has to be visa-class, it
can't just be flipping hamburgers.

A temporary visa doesn't last long (1-3 years), but it's a rotten status to be
in if there's a layoff. Imagine: you're living somewhere new, you've made
friends, you have possessions, and suddenly _in addition to having been fired_
your life is turned upside down; and if you don't sort it out quickly you'll
be given a plane ticket and told never to return.

So while companies probably aren't _allowed_ to consider any of this when
choosing who to fire, I wish they _would_.

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pasbesoin
A covenant not to sue does not preclude you (as far as I know) from posing the
question to the Dept. of Labor (or whatever commission of same handles this
particular area).

Be careful, though, of below-the-table blowback. Assess the risks and your
interest before continuing.

