

An open letter to the world - the war on education - JoshPic
http://fifteenandahalf.com/

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dpkendal
Also, let's clarify something -- when Josh says 'college,' he doesn't mean
university, as per the American definition of that term, he means Sixth Form:
British secondary education from the ages of 16-18, before heading to
university.

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JoshPic
Correct, thanks for clarifying that david, I should've mentioned it in the
original post

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euroclydon
I wonder why his choice is limited to 1) seeking to have a lucrative career at
a big company, and 2) apparently seeking to hit a home run with a start up.

A third choice would be to immigrate to a country which still has cheap land
and, as a single man, perform whatever is work necessary, for a few years, to
buy and own a homestead outright. This could be done in about five years if he
was frugal enough. Then... just do whatever the heck he feels like: get an
education, start a business, save the world, whatever.

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astrofinch
Wouldn't you want to have a good contact who knew something about homesteading
for this?

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mitali
Josh - if you are a UK resident and citizen, you should be able to go to
college and uni for free or for very nominal fees correct? Why the $80K debt?

Here is one perspective: 9 out of 10 startups fail. So even if you do drop out
and start your own company, you are not likely to succeed the first or even
second and third time round. But you will LEARN A LOT! You will learn a lot of
things that uni would not teach you. That said, you can learn this whenever
you start your company - at age 16 or age 22, or 33 in my case. That
opportunity will not just go away because you go to college.

On the flip side, if you do go to college (a must IMO) and further 3 years of
university you will also learn a lot. You will learn how to think about ideas
and build your own perspective on the world around you so you dont have to
listen to people like Peter Thiel (who btw not only went to university but
also to law school afterwards. in fact vast majority of the "thielians" as you
call them have multiple higher ed degrees.) This oppty _will_ go away. People
do go to college at a later age, but believe me its a lot harder, less
interesting and extremely infrequent.

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sycren
Insight: University fees for Students in the UK have risen from £3500 per year
to either £6000 or a maximum of £9000 while the government has cut funding for
teaching and research. Most universities have opted to charge the maximum
£9000 per year to the surprise of the policymakers. These changes will arrive
in 2012. The government also behind start up culture with startup Britain:
<http://www.startupbritain.org/> But as the OP suggests, although there is a
risk forming a startup at any time, education now seems to have the same
amount of risk involved as it will settle the student with at least £40,000 of
debt (fees 9000, accommodation food etc 3-4000) for 3-4 years. Finding a job
straight out of school at 16 will also be quite daunting as the unemployment
level is continuously rising so there is no safety net. Although this will not
help now, I can only hope that when the country has settled its financial
debt, it will make education free or more affordable although this could be
wishful thinking..

~~~
arctangent
Fellow UK resident here.

The political reasoning behind the hike in fees is to make young people think
harder about whether a university degree is actually going to be useful to
them in their career. It's fairly clear that vocational courses would benefit
some people a lot more than theoretical/academic courses, and society would
benefit from this too.

At the moment young people tend to go to university by default, and there were
(until recently) frequent stories about universities offering nonsense degrees
just so they can claim funding from the government. I can't blame the those
students who, in the past, went to university for 3 years just to learn how to
be independent, make some friends and party. I don't think they'll do it if
the privilege costs them several thousand pounds.

However, our current government in the UK has signalled a change - there is a
feeling that making university easy to go to has manipulated unemployment
figures downwards and has not really had the desired effect that you might
expect from higher education. Historically, university attendance was much
lower - not because of a lack of "fairness" in society but because society
accepted that only the brightest and most motivated went to such a place.

I'd prefer it if young people didn't have to pay money to go to university but
it's in society's interest that those who do go are recognised as having gone
there for the right reasons and are qualified to do something productive. If
there's a price attached to a degree then universities will (presumably) try
harder to ensure that the value they provide is comparable with the fees
charged by other universities.

To the original poster I would say this: If you think you're smart then you
might as well stick it out and get a degree, especially if you think you have
a chance of going to a top UK university. You will find it very difficult to
get a degree later in life when you have more responsibilities. Degrees are
still cheap in the UK compared to the USA (especially if you think you will
one day earn an above-average salary).

~~~
FrojoS
This is certainly a way to see it. Its rational and logic. And of course, I
don't think the public shouldn't pay shitty schools were people only party.

However, I wonder what the results in reality, where people are usually not
acting so rational, will be. If people were that rational in first place,
wouldn't they see, that the amount of money they won't earn while they are in
college instead of working is way larger than the fees?

I don't know the society in the UK very well, but here in Germany I had
friends in third grade, who where sent to school that won't lead to degrees
that qualify for university! They we're smart and had good grades, but their
parents wanted them to earn money once they're 16.

I wonder how many parents would have taken them out of school even before the
ago of 16 if only it was legal. And that whole system of compulsory education
is >100 years old, here! Isn't it a fact, that todays world requires more
learning and therefore more time in school? Delayed maturity is a trend as
long as homo sapiens sapiens exists.

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JoshPic
I should probably add some more detail to the story:

1)I have a place confirmed at a good college, Im considering if I should take
it 2)I have a multitude of job offers although I have one in particular
earmarked as favourite 3)Through spending so much time working with
startups/government/media in London, I have built up a great network of
contacts already - unfortunately, I'd be unable to to the same thing at
college 4)As one commenter pointed out - the startup is very time intensive
and will need funding and someone to work on it full time in the near future
5)In reply to another comment, I do have a precise vision of exactly where I
want to be. Being a 'successful entrepreneur' can mean a hundred different
things to a hundred different people. 6)I dont fear failure if there is a
possibility of success - I do however believe that taking such a massive risk
is stupidity if there is NO chance of success. My blog post also acts as a way
for me to 'test the waters' as it were to find out if success if possible.

~~~
FrojoS
How long is your college place good? Can you work for a year or two, save
money and then still take it or do you have to reapply?

~~~
JoshPic
As far as I know about a year or two. The problem I'd have with that is the
fact that I probably wouldn't be able to fund going back to college - taking a
break for a few years would set me back about another $20,000

~~~
FrojoS
If you take point 2) - the job offer - you could save lots of money with your
lean lifestyle, no? Or you find a big investor, found a limited and pay
yourself a salary of which you save some money for school. Of course all that
is easier said than done.

If 'college' in the UK (where do I find info?) is similar to the "Kollegstufe"
in Germany, specifically Bavaria, I would very much recommend it. We were
allowed to choose majors, stop taking some courses, attendance wasn't always
required, lots of free time and still a great and demanding liberal arts
education. It was ten times more fun and effective then all the years before.

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FrojoS
I feel so privileged. Graduating in two months. Payed about 5000 Euros for 5
years of engineering education. Got about 25k from the government for living
expenses. More than half of it as a grant - independent of my grades, as long
as I passed.*

I'm European, too. Of course, if you live in Scandinavia its even better than
here in Germany. And yes, our system has lots of mistakes und isn't very fair
in many cases. Still, I feel especially sorry for this, apparently super
talented and hardworking kid. He can't even be sure that the fees won't rise
while he is in college. I really hope he finds his way!

*Only requirement: Don't have rich parents, don't save money, don't earn to much with side jobs and fill out tons of paperwork about every aspect of your life.

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wangwei
College or University education is more than the "education". It's a way of
life that people go through to gain some incredible social experiences that
you can't get elsewhere. Now I agree that we always need to improve our
education, but for the "college is worthless" because it doesn't help your
career type, a great college(not a vocational school) is never for your
career, it's for personal growth.

On a different note, do people notice that there are more and more teenagers
using HN? I feel like HN is the new Myspace again.

~~~
snitko
There are plenty of experiences in the world that don't help your career, but
rather help you grow personally. College may be one of them. On the other
hand, doing things that help your career doesn't mean in any way that you
don't grow personally. And so, the question becomes if you are a person who
can deal with getting this personal growth without any other motivation or
not. If growing personally is just not enough, then college may not be the
best option and you may want to seek something else.

Personally, I prefer working on things that satisfy both conditions: 1) make
me grow personally 2) help me achieve my business goals. I tried going with
only one of those things (just 1 or just 2) and I could never managed to
accomplish anything significant this way.

However, I've seen a lot of happy people who were able to do a lot with just
one of those conditions.

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JoshPic
Also - Just as a side note - Please share this post. I would like to get as
wide a set of opinions as possible so I can assess the general consensus of
opinion cross-industry in a few days. Thanks, J

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bluekeybox
College. The point isn't so much to pigeonhole oneself into a safe job at a
big company but to take some liberal-arts courses to better oneself and to
avoid becoming a one-dimensional human being.

~~~
Eliezer
Okay, seriously, how is this advice _not_ a gigantic blatant lie? Read science
fiction written by knowledgeable people who put their knowledge in the story,
go to science fiction conventions, attend random lectures in your city, read
history books you're actually interested in, read basic textbooks in a variety
of fields, go to kink events and learn about anything that interests you,
visit a foreign country and stay there long enough to absorb a culture, make
strange friends, not to mention DOING A STARTUP, and at the end you will be a
hell of a lot more well-rounded than somebody who paid $80,000 to take a
course requiring them to read Moby Dick.

Trudging off dully into college like the est of the drones is an efficient way
of becoming multidimensional? A more efficient way than DOING A STARTUP? GIVE
me a goddamned BREAK! Isn't this one of those things that is just _blatantly_
false but which everyone repeats anyway? And even if it were true, there'd be
hella more efficient ways to round yourself using $80,000.

~~~
mattdeboard
First, the author is 16 years old. It matters. Yes, college is, all things
being equal, a great venue to encounter a lot of opportunities to expand one's
base of knowledge and depth of character.

Second, he lives in the UK. College won't run him American prices.

Third, I truly think it's irresponsible to advise to the general populace that
they skip college. Going to college need not be a headlong dive into
staggering debt. There are options to afford yourself an education without
breaking yourself. The "$80,000" scenario for a bachelors degree is the worst-
case one, "one of those things that is _[almost totally]_ false but which
everyone repeats anyway."

I'm not sure I necessarily agree that liberal arts courses is a worthwhile
time investment, though. But college isn't the waste of time you're trying to
make it out to be.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Suppose you can rent a room for £250 per mo, eat and dress and buy utilities
for the same and spend say £50 per mo of course on uni materials (books, tech,
disposables). That's about £6450 pa. Add on fees of £7500.

Three year course under this regimen is c. £40k or $65k.

At my college (ie Uni) I paid 320 per mo for a room (quite a few years ago).
Fees could be £9000 pa. At that rate the figures work out to c. $80k USD for a
3 year course.

I don't think that the $80k is the worst case scenario.

