

Ask HN: Do you provide or check work references? - LargeCompanies

As a bootstrapper and start-up addict whose had a small level of success (start-ups always featured in tech rags &amp; Fortune 50&#x2F;500 companies express interest) I find myself in and out of the web design&#x2F;development job market.<p>Here on the east coast, doing side projects&#x2F;working on a start-up isn&#x27;t looked upon as something positive in the job market.  At my two most recent employers (stayed at each for a year) I don&#x27;t speak of my side projects until I become friendly or friends with co-workers and bosses.  As I have found out I need to keep my mouth shut, as these co-workers&#x2F;bosses who I thought were friends turn on me.  My work performance is solid before and after they learn of my projects.  Though after they learn of such they terminate me and suddenly state my body of work is less then it was before.  It&#x27;s very disheartening, as now, I do not have any good work references.<p>I wonder if others are or have been in a similar boat and what have you done to get around this? Also, to employers here do you believe the references you call or email are legit?
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loumf
I have lived on the East coast my whole life (40+ years) and am in my fourth
startup. Practically every good developer I've worked with has some side
project they do on their own time.

I find it hard to believe that anyone would fire someone doing great work as a
programmer no matter what they were doing on their own time.

The key is -- did you honestly give it a full day's work at your paid job? On
your own time means literally -- on your own time, on your own computer. I'm
not asking you to answer here -- answer for yourself.

Then, just give a reference from any other past job. Yes, employers that ask,
check -- especially recruiters. You can't send them someone who will say
anything bad (e.g. He worked on side projects during work hours). The point is
that people that will vouch for you exist -- not exactly what they say.

EDIT TO ADD: I always disclose all side projects at the interview at some
point. It has never been a problem. I also amend employee contracts that
prohibit working on anything else to say "during work with work equipment" or
some equivalent I have a lawyer draft.

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davismwfl
My 2 cents. I have spent almost 100% of my career both as an employee and
employer on the east coast, with a small stint in the mid-west.

I would say your general characterization of east coast employers is fairly
accurate, although I am not sure if it differs from west coast employers. But
on the East Coast it appears they really frown on side projects and most will
even try and make you sign agreements stating anything you invent, code or
otherwise work on whether on their time or yours is their intellectual
property. I have seen so many of these it blows my mind. East Coast businesses
seem to think they own you more than it at least appears happens on the West
Coast, but again, I may be wrong. A friend had me look at some paperwork (NDA
etc) a startup here on the East Coast gave him as part of his offer letter.
When I read it I was alarmed it basically said they would own anything he did
that involved software development, even if he had priorly invented it,
including that he would have to assign prior related or new patents to them. I
am not even sure that is actually enforceable but I told him I would never
sign that.

As for your experience and reference questions, relating to Software positions
specifically. I personally do not call any references, I judge people based on
how I feel when talking with them. Plus I feel that most times reference calls
are liability focused where you get standard answers to standard questions and
nothing more. I have had less than a ten calls to me for reference checks in
the past 4-5 years on employees that have left, which I have had far more than
ten on my teams leave. So I don't think a lot of people call them either.

I also don't care if I see references on a resume, in fact, I kind of prefer
not to see them. If it is important I will ask you.

When you say that you have been let go after people find out you have a side
project. I honestly haven't seen that, unless the side project is interfering
with your daily work, or has some conflict.

That said, I will say as an employer I was recently burned by a few employees
each having their own side project that they were working. I found they were
really quite distracted and I knew their output was very good previously to
their side projects. I saw the degradation in their abilities, performance and
they were just not delivering even though they felt and would argue they were
still giving me 100%. I can't say they weren't giving me 100% but the 100%
they were giving me was 60% because they were over tired and distracted. They
were constantly thinking about their own project more than the one I was
paying them for, and it became more and more obvious as time went on. So none
of them are with me today. So maybe your impression and your previous
employers differs, if you are friendly with anyone still there maybe ask for
some honest opinions from co-workers.

~~~
mod
I think your anecdote at the end differs, because in the OP's story, he was
already doing the side project both before and after his superiors found out
about it.

They were happy before they knew, and unhappy after. But presumably the output
didn't change.

~~~
davismwfl
Yep fair point.

I mention asking someone only because many times we feel and see things one
way but others see it differently. He may feel his contribution didn't suffer
but maybe it did and he equated the failure to his employer learning of his
project rather then his performance. It may not have even been with side work,
could be anything.

Also happening once is one thing. Multiple times means you really have to look
at the common denominator in the situations and see if there is more to it.

