

Ask HN: How to pursue an unadvertised/nonexistent internship? - mattdeboard

I live in a Midwestern state where I am approximately a college junior (I am a 31-year-old non-traditional student who is changing careers from PR to software development). For a few years now, long before I decided to go back to school, I have been teaching myself Python and its associated web frameworks, as well as a few other languages in which I've dabbled.<p>I am more than willing to accept intern pay -- that is, market minimum or less, or none -- for an internship opportunity where I can be surrounded by people smarter and more experienced than myself. Unfortunately, there is only one company here who does something does something I consider really interesting.<p>How do I approach this company about an internship? Or should I even do that? The CEO hosts local Python meetups once a month, which I have trouble getting to since I have class on the nights they're held. We have exchanged a couple of emails (Me: "Does your company host any learning opportunities for aspiring programmers?" Him: "No, not really, what kind of format would interest you?" Me: "Shadowing would be cool." Him: None) but nothing really came of it.<p>How do I approach a company about internship opportunities they might not advertise or, in fact, even have available? (This company is seeking a python dev right now, a job I'm sure I'm not qualified for)
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krschultz
When I was a sophomore in college, I knew I wanted to get into a startup as an
intern. (I think there is a pg essay somewhere giving that advice, I followed
it). I knew as a mechanical engineer with some software development experience
I didn't want to be in one of the web 2.0 startups. I posted an Ask HN
question about how to find startups in Manhattan (I lived in New Jersey, about
1.5 hour commute to manhattan each way). HNers posted two groups (NYTech
Meetup, and TechNY?, forget the second one off teh top of my head). I sent an
email out to those two groups basically saying, here is my resume, I would
love to intern for a startup company, preferably one that does hardware, does
anyone have any tips.

One of the members on the 2nd board told me about Bug Labs, and gave me the
contact email for one of the guys there. I then went through about a 4 week
process of playing phone and email tag. I never gave up. I'd get in touch
about every 3-5 days and push for an interview. I finally got one, I think
just so they'd shut me up. They really had no need/use/idea of what to do with
an intern. But I think they knew I wanted it badly enough that it was worth
taking a chance on me.

I ended up staying there for the rest of college doing 2 summer and 2 winter
internships, and it was definitely the best experience/job I've ever had.

My suggestion is: figure out exactly what you want to do, find a contact in
the company (for me it was HR not CEO) and just lay it out really clearly why
you want to work for them and what you will do. For me I made it clear that I
would pick up all the low priority tasks and free up the other engineers to do
other things. That meant at first writing a lot of the manuals, testing, and
writing tutorials. It was probably less programming than some other
internships, but I was surrounded by some of the smartest people I've ever
met, and it was a great place to work.

So just don't give up on contacting them, people in startups are busy, and
make sure you make it clear what value you are going to bring to them becuase
startups don't have the time or money to keep on interns that don't pull their
weight.

------
patio11
A bit of free advice from a consultant: if you get asked for a proposal, write
a proposal which includes includes exactly what he needs to know to say "yes"
and then ask for the "yes." That doesn't quite come across in that gloss. I
don't know if I'd be angling for internships, though.

Do you know what the difference between you and the typical junior Python dev
is? The junior Python dev _gets paid for programming Python_. Seriously. Apply
for the freaking job. The worst thing that happens is you get told you have a
hole in your engineering skillset. The likely thing to happen is that you will
discover engineers are not hired for engineering skillset, because if they
were there wouldn't be so many terrible ones still on the payrolls of
corporations big and small.

~~~
retroafroman
This is exactly right. I ended up in an awesome internship that didn't exist
until I proposed the position and me as the best candidate for that position.
Think of something that they could use or would be advantageous for them and
then offer to do it as an internship for them.

------
jamii
I've been looking around for (post-grad) internships for the last few weeks.
The most successful tactic so far has been to just email and ask directly.
Make sure to link to some existing projects that you can show off so they know
you won't just be dead weight. Show that you have actually researched the
company and are interested in what they do. I've had a few interviews already
with this sort of thing:

    
    
      > Person X, I saw your job posting on HN and wonder if you also accept interns?
      >
      > I have professional experience with python, erlang and ocaml and have
      > previously worked in a startup environment. I have
      > little practical experience in machine learning or data mining but I
      > do have some classroom learning as well as a solid background in math.
      >
      > I have a resume and portfolio online (
      > http://scattered-thoughts.net/all?jid=2&tag=about ). A few of the
      > smaller projects in there are vaguely relevant to Company X - a personal
      > job hunting agent (
      > http://scattered-thoughts.net/one/1274/311469/330868 ) and an email
      > chat bot for 419 baiting (
      > http://scattered-thoughts.net/one/1274/311469/329424 ).
      >
      > I am hoping to start a phd in September so I cannot accept permanent
      > positions at the moment. I am not a US citizen but I am eligible for a
      > J1 visa and able to move to SF without financial assistance.
      >
      > Thanks
      >
      > Jamie
    

Edit: Fixed the formatting

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aepstein
The best way to get their attention is to build something in Python that they
would be interested in.

For example, do they have an API? If so, build off their API. Make a cool
related service. Make a microsite. Develop a prototype of some
technology/algorithm that would be useful in their business.

Forget resumes/shadowing/etc, just take the initiative to build something they
will notice and love, and you'll have an instant connection.

~~~
sagacity
If you take my word for it, aepstein's advice above is _solid gold_ \- very
similar strategies have won me _paying customers_ in the past.

Go for it and all the best.

------
Lmclean
I'm in a similar vessel over here in Scotland/UK 30yr old, CS undergrad,
wife/daughter etc. I've no experience other than the 1.5yrs coding from
University and mostly in Java & php. Around 3 weeks ago I used linkedin to
target companies in and around Edinburgh that I thought I could work in,
loosely based on product/location but not tech stack. I also used google
finance and used different phrases to find larger companies. I contacted
managers and HR staff via unsolicited email with my CV and academic
transcript.

I've had 3 interviews so far and a further 1 next week with. I've had 1 offer
of p/t during term and f/t in the summer.

All 3 companies don't let interns loose on their codebase, understandable tbh.
They look at setting a side project, within their 'product roadmap', to
develop a proof of concept. Sometimes this ends up not being useful, but the
company can keep their current dev team on more pressing issues while
undertaking 'research'. Might be worth approaching with this tangent?

I'm assuming that an internship is the same over here as in your locale; a
summer job? If python is your chosen path great but don't let it stand in the
way of applying to different companies. All 3 of the companies I've
interviewed with use .Net and MSoft stacks, of which I have no experience. I
found most of the interviewers had been focused on assessing my communication
skills instead of technical prowess. Learning another language can't be a bad
thing?

Good Luck!

~~~
mattdeboard
Heartily agree on all counts. Learning new languages I am definitely not
opposed to. I don't have a "pet stack." I just want professional experience
for when I move to more, ahem, lucrative locales.

Thanks for responding.

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o1iver
I am also a university student and I just got an internship by talking to PHD
students about their projects. I finally met one who was leading a super-
interesting one. I asked about internships (+ bachelor thesis) and he got in
touch with the company leading the project with the university, where I then
applied and was just taken. It wasn't advertised, so just go and ask people
with connections to the industry.

------
isharabash
Ask in person and keep on asking.

Be flexible in what you're willing to accept too, the idea is to get your foot
in the door and either learn straight out, or make connections with people you
can learn from.

Also make sure you're ready with the resume and everything else.

------
mbm
Get to know a professor with industry connections and demonstrate to him/her
that you're smart and/or hard-working. Use that as an inroad to a programming
internship. It'll take some time, but it might be your best bet if there
aren't a lot of internships on the market.

------
n0on3
Be direct, honest and keep it simple. That means, (1) be very clear on your
abilities and expectations, (2) don't make them loose time, and (3) if you
want to know whether they are looking for / would be interested in someone
like you for an internship or not, just ask.

------
andrewfurman
I'm also a college junior and have been looking to gain development
experience. I recently just had success emailing a startup in my area using
their jobs@startup.com address. I listed some of my skills, gave a link to a
project that I did, and told them why I was passionate about what they were
doing. The CEO ended up emailing me back the same day.

If anyone else is in this position I'd recommend trying this first since it's
very good way to express interest in a possible job opportunity with a
company.

------
maxbrown
My advice would be to be very clear in your writing (e-mail exchange, cover
letter) what the value is that you're going to bring the company. In this
case, it seems like you want to sell yourself as a junior dev - someone who
can do the coding that is busywork for the other devs - and you really want to
stress that you'll be low maintenance for them.

If you can prove that you bring more value than you'll take, they should give
you the internship.

------
petervandijck
1\. Write something they'll love. Something using their API or something.
Something simple is ok, but something that shows that you'll provide value.

2\. Then apply for an unadvertised junior Python job, not an internship and
show them what you wrote.

------
gregpilling
I have had two interns in the past. Both of the positions came about because
the person approached me and told me what they wanted to do. I didn't have to
think too much about their proposal - they had it figured out for me. So I
said yes.

------
Mz
"Shadowing" is asking them to do something for you and offers nothing in
return. It's a net loss for the company. You probably need to be willing to do
whatever -- get coffee, stuff envelopes, sweep the floor. I have not done an
internship of the sort you are wanting but did arrange an internship I needed
for a college class. I went and asked. The longer I was there, the more I
shaped it to what I wanted to do for them. I initially did "whatever" but as I
got to know people better, opportunities came up for me to say "let me fix x
for you". When that went well, they were more willing to listen to additional
suggestions and work with me. It had the potential to become a self-created
paid position had I not left the area when I did. It was a non-profit, so I
would have had to find funding for my own position but the interest was there
from their side.

~~~
mattdeboard
And when I'm there in person, what do I say? If I was qualified for a
position, or it was an advertised internship, it's a well-worn dialogue on
what to do and say. However, this is the first time in my life I've been
passionate enough about something to be willing to ask someone what I can do
to help with nothing to gain from it but knowledge. Looking for specific
"talking points," I guess.

~~~
mechanical_fish
With reference to patio11's comment above: Your talking point is "I want to
write some code in Python for your company."

Then, if and when they turn you down for that job, you can approach the CEO at
one of those local meetups and say, "Hey, I'm trying to become a better
programmer; what should I study next? Here's a couple of my projects on Github
so you can see the sort of things I've been working on."

You keep talking about how unqualified you are. Perhaps you are merely too
shy. But if you're certain that you don't know Python well enough to write
code in Python for money... learn more Python! You will have to teach
yourself, of course, using books and blogs and example code from Github and
Stack Overflow and semi-random Googling and surfing through your system's
source code. You will have to get used to that: Web programmers are
autodidacts, as they have had to be since the Web was invented, and as they
will continue to be for at least another decade.

~~~
mattdeboard
My friend & mentor keeps telling me to quit being a wussy and that I'm about
as skilled as he was when he was a fresh graduate. I need to put on my big boy
shorts and just apply. I am an enthusiastic autodidact so no problem there.

