

Ask HN: How do you prevent slouching at your desk?  - misterm

I have a bit of a problem with slouching. I often catch myself leaning closer and closer towards the computer screen, especially when I'm on my laptop, and this does quite a number on my back and shoulders.<p>How can I maintain good posture when I'm working on my laptop or desktop, without setting up a ridiculous treadmill desk? Thanks guys.
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shanked
I've had a couple herniated discs in my lower back for over eight years now,
so I've spent significant time focusing on improving my posture while sitting.

Here are a few tips:

1\. Use a lumbar roll -- you place this in your lower back and it forces you
to maintain a lordosis (curve of the spine) by keeping it in position. This
will be tiring for the first couple of weeks, but eventually it will feel
natural.

Here is a link to a lumbar roll similar to what I've used:
[http://www.amazon.com/Original-McKenzie-D-
Section-700-Lumbar...](http://www.amazon.com/Original-McKenzie-D-
Section-700-Lumbar/dp/B000GPM520/)

2\. Monitor height -- you want your monitor to be positioned so that you are
looking straight ahead, rather than down, towards your monitor. If you are
forced to look down there is a better chance of leaning forward instead of
maintaing good posture.

If you're using a laptop, consider buying a laptop stand to increase the
height of the laptop. [http://www.amazon.com/AliMed-Smart-Stand-
Laptop/dp/B003T1LWW...](http://www.amazon.com/AliMed-Smart-Stand-
Laptop/dp/B003T1LWW2/)

If you can't get your monitor high enough relative to your position, you'll
need a taller desk. \-------------------------------------------------------

Those are my two biggest tips, but there are others:

Chairs are not made equal... different chairs have definite discrepancies in
the amount of pain they cause me on a day to day basis. Even expensive ones
will send shooting pains down my leg within a few hours of sitting in them. If
you can test some new chairs out for a day or two at a time, I'd recommend
doing so.

Get up, walk, and/or stretch regularly for a couple of minutes. At work I use
a small cup for water, which requires me to refill every 45 minutes or so. A
quick 2 minute walk to the water tank for a fill-up is a refreshing break for
our backs.

~~~
peregrine
The drink trick is perfect, but beware you will be going to the bathroom
often. Also be aware that you may develop a habit of sipping on your cup very
often and that can lead to bad habits while drinking alcohol.

~~~
DTrejo
I've used the glass of water trick myself, and it is very helpful. It's
especially helpful because when you get stuck while solving a problem, you
have a great reason to get up and walk around to think about said problem.

Just another data point: This hasn't affected my drinking habits in other
areas.

------
midnightmonster
You probably have too-small a screen or too small letters on your screen,
though for what it's worth there really i no ergonomic way to use a laptop
that doesn't involve at least one of an external keyboard or screen. Increase
your font sizes, and you may not feel the need to lean in so much. (And/or see
an eye doc.)

And working at home (or in a startup you run, I guess) means you can do things
to help your health and productivity even if they might seem ridiculous, like
take naps and walk while you type. Yet another reason I don't see myself ever
having a 'normal' job again. (And most people seem to think my treadmill desk
is pretty cool, fwiw.)

~~~
mechanical_fish
This is fine advice, but you're burying the lede:

 _There really i no ergonomic way to use a laptop that doesn't involve at
least one of an external keyboard or screen._

Amen. Laptops have lousy ergonomics. Get an external keyboard, and/or a
portable external keyboard, and/or find some way to prop up the screen, and/or
get an external monitor.

~~~
jvdh
I completely agree. Make sure that the top of the screen is at about the same
height has your eyes when you're sitting upright. That's the best ergonomic
height for a screen and will prevent you from slouching.

------
kylecordes
(At the risk of sounding like a broken record...)

(At the further risk of alienating everyone younger than me; I'm only barely
old enough to remember records, and never actually owned any...)

Get a standing desk. No slouch. Good stuff. Treadmill gizmo is completely
unnecessary.

~~~
misterm
I feel like I would absolutely hate standing for any extended period of time.
Doesn't this tire you out?

~~~
oostevo
I'm really not trying to be mean, but imagine your ancestors for a second. You
know, the guys who ran down and killed animals that weighed several tons.
Imagine how befuddled they'd be, sweating and bloodied from defeating the
mastodon that just tried to kill them, when you told them that you can't be
bothered to stand up for a little while while you type. It says something
pretty embarrassing about society when we've collectively decided that myriad
orthopedic problems are better than standing up.

That rant over with (sorry, again), I just went to the local hardware store
and got some cinder blocks. The price difference (~$7 for the cinder blocks
versus ~$1000 for a height-adjustable desk frame) was worth the slight lack of
convenience. That, and without the adjustability, I won't be tempted to just
leave the desk in the 'down' position.

~~~
alex_c
There's a big difference between walking (or jogging) for hours and standing
in one spot for hours. I can walk for significantly longer than I can stand in
the same spot before I experience discomfort.

~~~
oostevo
The reason that I don't experience that might have something to do with my
latent hyperactive tendencies. With my standing desk, I'm able to pace around
the office, walk to the whiteboard, and then return to the keyboard.

I think that helps me focus more, and it's probably one reason that I don't
get sore from standing in one spot. Others may experience different results.

------
NHQ
Holding an upright posture requires exercise. It _IS_ exercise, actually,
which is why it is hard to maintain for a while. So for that aspect of the
problem, one part of the solution == training, strengthening back muscles,
yoga, meditation, etc. By this, I mean as a extra-curricular activity.

As for posture itself, there is no simple answer. The way you sit, the
placement of your peripherals, how much time you spend sitting, these are all
factors. In order, then, and in brief:

Rolling your hips forward pushes the spine up. This is fundamental, literally.
Try a sitting position where your legs decline from your butt at a downward
angle. Sitting "indian style" on a decline is a good place to start (or the
"beaver" stretch position, with flat feet together. Obviously, your average
chair is not conducive to this. ALternatively, you could sit on a pillow on
the floor. You can sit with the lower half of your ass off a flat chair, with
legs tucked under, but it is not the best for circulation.

Your workspace is all important. If you're a pro programmer, it's worth every
effort to make your workshop (or command center, if you prefer) as close to
some ideal as possible. For instance, putting your monitor above the parallel
plane of vision is probably a big deal. Parallel plane = straight ahead.
Ergo(nomically): you should look upward to your monitor. This will encourage
your posture.

Again, since maintaining the position is actual work itself, it follows that
your should take regular breaks, stand up, walk away (or pace), return after a
few minutes, and get back to work. This also helps circulate blood. A
programmer I work with espouses the Pomodoro Technique, which is a time-
on/time-off regimen for deep cycle work flow. The effect is you set a timer,
and follow basic rules without fail. It's also good for your eyes to to turn
away from the screen every 45 minutes.

Bonus: breathing is life. Breathe deep for a deeper life. Regulate breath,
keep yourself extra-oxygenated. This is good for awareness and staves off
fatigue, which are critical for not recessing down into a slouch.

~~~
snth
> putting your monitor above the parallel plane of vision is probably a big
> deal. Parallel plane = straight ahead. Ergo(nomically): you should look
> upward to your monitor. This will encourage your posture

All the ergonomics guidelines I've seen recommend looking slightly downward at
your monitor. See the main image here:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergonomics>

> Breathe deep for a deeper life.

What the hell does that mean?

~~~
corysama
I think there are conflicting goals regarding monitor height. Higher helps
your posture, but lower keeps you eyes from drying out and straining because
they are not as wide-open.

------
dkarl
The only thing that has improved my posture (other than concentration and
awareness, which are usually engaged with other things) is exercise. For me,
running helps a little, but the best by far is lifting weights. After I lift
weights, my posture takes care of itself for the next 12-24 hours. Lifting
weights also helps me learn what a strong, healthy posture feels like, so when
I consciously try to stand up straight, it's easier to achieve a relaxed,
natural-feeling position instead of straining and feeling unsure.

I expect this advice only applies to exercises done on your feet with free
weights, such as squatting and overhead pressing, not to bench pressing or
machine work.

------
nostrademons
I've found the absolute best thing you can do is to switch positions
frequently. I've got terrible posture - I'm frequently curled up & twisted in
my chair - and yet have never had RSI or back problems, probably because I
don't hold that posture for long. At work, I usually migrate between my desk,
the futon, a beanbag, and the massage chair. At home, I switch between couch,
floor, bed, and balcony, with frequent breaks to get up and pace.

When I don't get up and switch, I frequently _do_ have problems, like I threw
out my shoulder leaning on the couch while reading the NaNoWriMo forums last
night. Vegging out can be hazardous to your health...

------
aplusbi
I found that using a Kinesis freestyle keyboard improved my sitting posture a
lot. The keyboard is split in half and connected by a wire and I have them set
up about shoulder width apart. With a normal keyboard I pull my shoulders
inward which causes me to slouch. Now I can lean back while typing.

~~~
yummyfajitas
Consider one of these. They make a huge difference for me.

[http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/images/solo-
ascent-90_512x390.jp...](http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/images/solo-
ascent-90_512x390.jpg)

(My cardboard/duct tape clone cost $4, about 50x less than the official
version.)

~~~
notyourwork
I am confused as to what you are suggesting to get or how it works based on
the picture.

~~~
aplusbi
I have the keyboard in the picture (the Freestyle) but I do not have the
"tenting" accessory that is holding the keyboard in a vertical position. He
was suggesting I get/build that.

I have the VIP accessory which lifts each half 15 degrees, but that's still
pretty far from 90.

------
mikegreenberg
I'm a pretty tense (high-strung) guy when it comes to being in one place for a
long time. To help with the slouching, and also with the Restless Leg Syndrome
(<http://www.rls.org> ...yes, we have our own damn foundation!), I have to use
a chair which feels optimally comfortable when sitting back and IN the chair
(with each part of your back and posterior being supported by the chair).
There's the initial investment of testing several chairs to find the one which
fits your shape and comfort, but pressing myself into a chair which is
comfortable to sit in and supports how I sit was 90% of the battle.

------
indrora
I keep my contrast up -- my screen has a _horrible_ problem with the contrast
and subpixel organization. It just makes it harder and harder to read over
time.

I've also change my interface fonts... My monospace font has gone to a 12
point Monofur, which makes a very readable font imo, and for my normal font
I've moved to a 14 point Verdana. I have also found putting my chair higher
made a HUGE difference.

high contrast white-on-black and green-on-black works better for me than other
color schemes, so that's one big thing.

------
rjett
I boosted my desk and now stand up. When I feel like sitting down, I have a
stool. Having no back to your seating will improve your posture if you
consciously think about sitting up. I was on the crew team in college and
working out my core muscles every day did more to improve my posture than
anything I've ever done.

------
chrisfarms
This week I have been house/cat sitting for a friend. While reading on their
computer my posture would begin to hunch, followed rapidly by a cat leaping
onto the area behind my neck.

Sitting up straight solved the cat issue. Maybe a cat will solve your slouch
issue.

------
reedlaw
Rethink the treadmill desk. Bodies are not designed for sitting all day.
Building a treadmill desk was probably the best single thing I've done for
both my health and productivity. Either that or take half-hour breaks to do
vigorous exercise throughout the day.

------
SkyMarshal
I lean back, put my feet up on my desk or the computer underneath, put my
keyboard on my lap, and increase my font size till I don't have to strain to
read it. :)

------
andrewl
You could try this:

<http://www.nadachair.com/>

It feels good for my back, but everybody is different.

~~~
irickt
This looks like a good support ("an extra muscle"), but it's important to
train your own muscles.

Rowing is great for strengthening the core and for stretching the back. I "row
with Xeno" <http://www.row2go.us/>

"Belly button to the spine, chest up, shoulders down."

------
tjpick
"Treat Your Own Back" by Robin McKenzie was recommended to me by a
physiotherapist and my grandfather. General advice to consult your own GP or
physiotherapist applies.

[http://www.amazon.com/Treat-Your-Back-Robin-
McKenzie/dp/0958...](http://www.amazon.com/Treat-Your-Back-Robin-
McKenzie/dp/0958269238/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1286825545&sr=8-1)

------
bulletproofbra
I agree with rjett about not having anything to lean on. It really does
improve your posture. I sit on a balance ball at my office, and have
consistently for about 10 months. It's really hard to slouch on a balance
ball. It's improved my overall core strength considerably, and I don't think I
ever slouch.

------
seltzered
While we're on the topic, anyone have tips for having a good posture, but
packing your setup in a bag? I want to work remotely but not kill my back in
the process.

So far the best suggestions seem to be to use a nada-chair and a laptop stand
+ light external keyboard.

------
ganley
What I just discovered recently that has made all the difference is: Keep your
feet flat on the floor. It makes it much easier to sit up straight; or,
perhaps, sticking your feet out in front of you or tucking them under your
chair makes it much easier to slouch.

------
Tichy
Perhaps you need glasses? I've read recently that slouching is actually easier
on the back than sitting straight, however, I think that was about slouching
away from the screen. I tend to do that - of course a lot of employers are not
very thrilled about it.

~~~
WesleyJohnson
"I've read recently that slouching is actually easier on the back than sitting
straight"

Any chance you might have some reference to where you read that? I'd be
interested in seeing how they did the study and what sort of results they came
up with.

~~~
KoZeN
<http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6187080.stm>

Not a link to the source but a decent article surmising the findings.

~~~
eevo
I do sit like this on an aeron chair, leaned back as far as it can go. I
almost never have back issues, but in this position (exactly like the far
right picture in the article) my neck eventually starts to ache.

Good for back, bad for neck...

~~~
maineldc
You should check out the freedom chair with headrest. I have 3 and love them
for exactly this reason, though now that my daughter has taken over my home
office, I never get to actually use them...

[http://www.amazon.com/HumanScale-Freedom-Chair-Headrest-
Fabr...](http://www.amazon.com/HumanScale-Freedom-Chair-Headrest-
Fabric/dp/B00062X3II)

------
gte910h
Put something moderately sharp (but rather blunt still) on the edge of your
desk? So leaning on it is uncomfortable but not damaging to your clothes?

Also, tell your optometrist about this. It really sounds like something is
wrong with your vision.

~~~
technomancy
> Put something moderately sharp (but rather blunt still) on the edge of your
> desk

Like a Macbook maybe?

I've never understood how people work around those sharp edges for extended
periods of time. Do your palms build some kind of protective layer after a
while?

------
fakelvis
Years ago I tried a kneeling chair
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kneeling_chair>). It was quite pleasant,
although I've never spent an extended period of time with one.

~~~
mperrera
We have many customers at www.backcarebasics.com that really swear by their
kneeling chairs. And, we have a whitepaper that you can access from our Home
Page that gives you a great deal of information and other written references.
Check it out!

------
seltzered
I use a swopper chair at home, and at work I stick a bunch of reams of paper
under my monitors to make sure they stay up.

Next on my home list is to buy either a laptop stand or get a good
monitor+stand.

------
zaveri
I would recommend a standing desk. The Ikea utby (105 cm) is great.
<http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/S49843462>

------
radu_floricica
I strongly recommend leaning back, with the legs propped up. I don't even know
what back pain is anymore, and I only realize how comfortable it is when I sit
at someone else's desk.

------
sharkey
Anyone had any good experiences with those saddle and/or kneeling chairs? I
find it odd that I get less backpain riding a motorcycle all day than sitting
at a desk ...

------
skurland78704
Use a Swiss ball for a desk chair.

Squat, deadlift.

~~~
teehee
"It is concluded that the advantages with respect to physical loading of
sitting on an exercise ball may not outweigh the disadvantages," the
researchers wrote." [http://lifehacker.com/5645943/exercise-balls-might-not-
be-th...](http://lifehacker.com/5645943/exercise-balls-might-not-be-the-best-
posture-fixers)

~~~
Luyt
Eeeewww, "spinal shrinkage"!

------
elblanco
Lean back in your chair.

