

Hiring Interns the Legal Way - wdewind
https://www.justworks.com/blog/hiring-interns-the-legal-way/

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rgawdzik
In the Software Engineering Industry, I believe unpaid internships should not
be allowed; it's not a high-barrier market! I personally like to work for
people who value my time above $0/h. I have to pay rent, tuition, food, etc;
why should I work for your company for free when I can work somewhere else?

For example, being a CS undergrad at UWaterloo, internships usually pay
between $16-$40, depending on the experience and year in school. In fact,
unpaid internships are not allowed to be posted.

In the worst case scenario, I would rather create and contribute to open-
source projects than work for someone for $0/h. I am sure people would be more
impressed in projects.

~~~
nugget
Shouldn't people be allowed to choose? As a student, maybe you would demand
$40/hour from a web dev chop shop, but offer to intern for Andy Rubin for
free? I understand the need to weed out scam artists and prevent exploitation,
but don't kill the entire concept at the same time. Most students and newly
minted developers I know should be way more focused on experience, mentors,
and quality of environment, than the absolute amount they are paid in the
short-term.

~~~
rgawdzik
Sure, if you really are a fan of a company and are willing to sacrifice pay to
learn and do what you love, then do it.

But you must realize that companies make a lot of money; the software
engineering industry has some of the highest profit margins. If they have
money, I would expect them to pay interns. If it was an early stage startup, I
wouldn't.

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patmcc
Since your site is now down, I'll offer some advice on how to hire (anyone)
the legal way:

Pay them.

~~~
wdewind
Haha, generally speaking that's not bad advice, but there are some times when
it's ok to not pay them (article talks about those).

Sorry about the site, working on getting it back up!

Edit: and we're back!

~~~
jackmaney
"there are some times when it's ok to not pay them"

No. No, there are not. If someone is working for you, then you pay them. It's
that simple.

~~~
wdewind
I think there are a ton of different situations, and certainly sometimes
unpaid internships can be exploitative, but I wouldn't agree that by
definition they are. Either way, our article is more about the legal issues
than the ethical ones. I suppose I should've said "some times when it's
_legal_ not to pay them." :)

~~~
mode0
>>The employer derives no immediate advantage from the intern;

If the intern is doing work for free that the employer would have to have a
paid employee perform, they are gaining an advantage and therefore are
violating the law.

Can you honestly give an example of an unpaid internship where the employer is
not gaining an advantage? If so, then it is fine to not pay them. But those
are very, very rare. My opinion, obviously, but I can't think of a non-
contrived example.

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PeterWhittaker
The use of unpaid interns in the US has long boggled my mind - I just could
not conceive of this being legal.

But that does beg the question: In what jurisdictions is it legal to employ
unpaid workers, and under what circumstances?

My knee-jerk naive judgment would be that it is always illegal in my
jurisdictions of greatest interest (Ontario, Canada), but I'd like to know
more - and I don't particularly trust wikipedia where legal matters are
concerned.

Any informed HNers care to comment?

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wdewind
Hi HN,

At Justworks we specialize in payroll, benefits and compliance. We know a lot
of startups want to hire interns and are confused about whether or not you
need to pay them. We wrote a small guide to help you determine when you're
safe and when you may need to speak with a lawyer to make sure you're
compliant. Take a look at let us know if you have any questions! Please also
feel free to ask us any general questions about hiring, taxes, payroll, health
insurance etc. that you may have, we'd be happy to answer :)

