
Canada's top court has overturned all restrictions on prostitution - kostyk
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americas/2013/12/canada-lifts-all-restrictions-prostitution-2013122015318412319.html
======
undoware
I'm heartened by the response to this, both on Hacker News and elsewhere.

Being a trans woman in IT is a bit weird -- because I can do incredible things
with my mind, I'm off the hook my sisters are on, that makes them have to
hook.

Several roommates ago, I literally came home and found that my (also trans)
roommate, who in addition to being trans was also dealing with immigration and
had recently lost her job and had begun turning tricks at home. Had I not come
home early from the university, I wouldn't have known.

And I've always hated the Canadian legal system for making me kick her out.
Because just being her roommate, under the previous legislation, would have
classified as 'living off the avails' and would have made me legally
indistinguishable from her pimp. Just for being her roommate.

That's the sort of pauperizing, soul-crushing bullshit that you never, ever
forget.

Also, I'm a big fan of Katrina Pacey, the lawyer mentioned in the article.
I've worked with her a few times on activist stuff (I got into sex worker
advocacy after my up-close-and-personal. They can't do it themselves, they go
to prison when they try. Well, before today. Go Katrina Pacey! Go Canadian
legal system!)

~~~
sergiotapia
There is a middle ground. It's not "either I work using my brain, or I whore
myself out." Many women are waitresses, shopping mall sweepers, store
attendants, cashiers, you name it.

~~~
undoware
Fun experiment for you. Go out and get a facial tattoo. Now try to get work.
That's still easier than finding honest work when you're transsexual. Don't
believe me? I can think of an even more decisive experiment...

~~~
tw266
Given the immense distress that most trans people seem to experience, I wonder
if we (and they) wouldn't be better off if the culture were less supportive of
those lifestyles.

I had some inclinations that way as a teenager, and I am SO glad I wasn't
living in San Francisco or some other place that would encourage me to "be
me".

~~~
pessimizer
Since the distress is solely caused by the the culture being "less supportive
of those lifestyles," I think that will do the opposite of help.

Also, we'd become less supportive of minority religions according to that
rationale - and ignore racial discrimination as an impossible problem.

~~~
Sssnake
>Since the distress is solely caused by the the culture being "less supportive
of those lifestyles,"

But it isn't. Mental illness, depression and suicide are disproportionately
high among transsexsuals, both pre and post op. Even in societies where they
are fully accepted. It is not unreasonable to think that the differences that
have been found in their brains predispose them to certain mental illnesses.
You can't just blame it on society.

~~~
davidtanner
In what society are transsexual people fully accepted?

~~~
camus2
No society fully accept transsexuals, however, Some places in some countries
are known to be more tolerant than others.

~~~
davidtanner
That's my point. Trans people get murdered for being trans even in the most
'accepting' areas. People like Sssnake don't help matters, either.

------
Raphmedia
Remember that in Canada, prostitution was already almost legal. You could
prostitute yourself so long as you didn't harass customers or walk up to
people and offer your services. You could however put ads in the newspaper for
"Angela, 38DD, busty and hot, will massage you... all over".

One of the things that you couldn't do was also very hurtful. You couldn't
team up with other street workers in order to insure your safety. That would
be a whorehouse, and they are illegal.

So, you end up with girls in the streets, with no security, who cannot even
talk straight about what they were willing and not willing to do.

I'm very happy that those laws are lifted. And it doesn't come out of the
blue. There has been discussions about in in the media in recent years, and I
believe that most people understood that forbidding those girls to have
security is an idiocy.

~~~
lazyant
From what I understand, johns where being arrested for solicitation.

~~~
parfe
Good. Solicitation threatens girls and women simply walking in their own
neighborhoods.

~~~
derefr
I think the GP meant, if a prostitute went up and offered her services to a
john, and the john said yes, that would be considered "solicitation" on the
part of the john. Which is to say, prostitution was legal for the prostitute,
but illegal for the john.

~~~
parfe
Johns don't passively sit in coffee shops or stand in line at Best Buy while
beset by offers of sex for money. They roll up on girls and women walking down
the street in an attempt to purchase sex.

~~~
derefr
I don't know if you've ever _walked_ down a street where there are _desperate_
streetwalkers (usually drug-addicts; e.g. crack addicts on Hastings here in
Vancouver) but even if you say nothing to them, they'll follow you for blocks
trying to get you to pay them.

~~~
redthrowaway
Hell, I was walking through the red light district in Buenos Aires and they
followed behind me _grabbing my crotch_.

------
tedivm
As anyone who has actually read any of the articles about this can tell you,
they did not actually overturn squat. The laws are still in effect and still
being enforced. What happened is they gave the legislature a year to revise
the laws to make them constitutional, but until then nothing has changed and
there's a good chance these laws will be revised before the deadline.

~~~
corresation
The nature of the laws would have to change significantly as the court found
the entire foundation behind the laws (largely moralizing/restricting the
actions of others based upon personal values) unconstitutional. The government
can't simply move a couple of punctuation marks and become compliant.

~~~
patmcc
Actually they can: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_Thirty-
three_of_the_Can...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_Thirty-
three_of_the_Canadian_Charter_of_Rights_and_Freedoms)

Parliament can specifically say "we know this law is unconstitutional, but we
like it anyway, so it's staying for 5 years. And then we can renew it if we
want." They may not want to do that, as it's a pretty strong thing to do, but
they are absolutely able to.

~~~
throwaway2048
I must say its rather amusing to see the very American style hyper legalistic
logic applied to most parliamentary democracies. According to the very letter
of the law, the queen could become absolute ruler over Canada aswell :).

All hail Empress Elizabeth II, terror of all the known world?

Laws and customs only mean as much as a government willing to be responsible
to the people, as the NSA has shown everyone.

~~~
yareally
> _I must say its rather amusing to see the very American style hyper
> legalistic logic applied to most parliamentary democracies_

You would be quite mistaken to believe such hyper-legalistic logic only came
into existence with The United States. The US only built on the myriad of
legalese already put in place by the British, Byzantines[1], Romans, and
Greeks, <insert dominate culture/country of the era>.

How do you think Julius Caesar came to power? He abused the laws put in place
by the Roman Republic by refusing to step down at the end of his term.

[1] The Byzantines themselves[2] have become synonymous with "complex
political system"

[2]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantinism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantinism)

------
RyanMcGreal
The Court's reasoning was that since prostitution itself is legal, it is
unconstitutional to prevent prostitutes from taking reasonable measures to
manage their business, protect their safety and so on. My prediction is that
the federal government will react not by amending the law to eliminate the
unconstitutional restrictions but rather making prostitution itself illegal.

~~~
loganu
I'm not so sure... I think there might be a genuine interest in actually
helping/ protecting these women. Why wouldn't prostitution have been made
criminal before? (instead of the de facto approach of arresting pimps and
johns for soliciting and living off the avails?)

~~~
frenchy
The current government is conservative, so probably not. They've shown a
distinct lack of interest in practical solutions and instead have stuck very
solidly with their "ideals".

------
altero
In Germany they went one step further. Prostitutes are registered workers,
they pay taxes and must pass monthly health checks. They also get unemployment
support and state pension after retirement.

On other side many people lost unemployment support, because they refused to
work in brothel as cleaners or maintenance personnel.

~~~
chimeracoder
> Prostitutes are registered workers, they pay taxes and must pass monthly
> health checks.

I fully support this. STIs are one of the biggest public costs of
prostitution.

(Yes, this is a _public_ cost. Every time a new person is infected with (e.g.)
HIV, from an epidemiological perspective, that increases the chances of some
copy of the virus in some person mutating into a virulent - even airborne -
version. This is why you should care about HIV infection rates, even if you
practice safe sex and don't use IV drugs, etc.[0])

> On other side many people lost unemployment support, because they refused to
> work in brothel as cleaners or maintenance personnel.

How is that any different from refusing to work in a hotel or a hospital as a
janitor (or even as a nurse[1])?

They may not like the line of work, but that's no different from disliking
taking a job at Halliburton. While I sympathize with the goal of choosing a
job ethically, in the US (not sure about Germany), unemployment benefits and
requirements aren't designed with that in mind.

[0] Even "curable" STIs are a public health problem We are already on the
verge of creating - if we haven't already created - strains of gonorrhea that
are resistant to _all_ antibiotic treatments.

[1] You wouldn't believe some of the stuff nurses in hospitals have to put up
with on a daily basis.

~~~
foobarqux
What do you do about sex workers that become infected? How much more desperate
can they get?

~~~
ori_b
Treat them. Possibly put them on disability, since they have a health
condition that put them out of work.

I'm not sure how else you would handle it.

~~~
foobarqux
I don't think it's as easy as it seems. Besides being a tough sell politically
it's hard to say that an infected person can no longer work _anywhere_. It's
also not clear how to avoid having the system gamed: How do you prove you are
actually a sex worker? How do you prove you were a sex worker when you got
infected?

Can society even afford to pay to put all of those people on disability for
life (and pay for their healthcare)?

------
pervycreeper
>"It makes no difference that the conduct of pimps and johns is the immediate
source of the harms suffered by prostitutes," McLachlin wrote. > >"The
impugned laws deprive people engaged in a risky, but legal, activity of the
means to protect themselves against those risks."

One of the things I've noticed reading newspaper articles and websites
regarding legal rulings in Canada (the full depth of my research, admittedly),
is that the reasoning seems to be governed by the judges' personal opinions of
what would be fair ("we must protect the prostitutes from harm"), whereas
American rulings seem to rely more upon the interpretation of texts such as
their constitution. Is this an accurate characterization? If so is this a
result of a differently structured legal system, or just a "cultural"
difference?

~~~
rbobby
Canada has a pretty good Charter of Rights. Section 7 involves security of the
person. That's the rock the existing laws sunk on. Roughly speaking the laws
made a legal activity more risky for no reasonable purpose (which is why
Section 1, reasonable limits, couldn't save the law).

The Canadian SC is very good at their jobs. They definitely do not make their
decisions based on their "personal opinions of what would be fair". Rather,
their decisions are based on their measured, professional understanding of the
charter, the law and existing jurisprudence, and the effects their decision
may have on the administration of justice. Thankfully they are very
experienced jurists with great respect for the rule of law and jurisprudence.

~~~
pervycreeper
I'd like to see the intermediate steps between "security of the person" and
legalizing pimping.

It would also be mildly alarming to learn that the SC consists of "very
experienced jurists with great respect for the rule of law and jurisprudence"
only "for the most part".

~~~
rbobby
I have to retract my "for the most part". I was thinking of Nadon... but he
was previous Federal Court of Appeal and Federal Court.

All the Justices were former jurists
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Court_of_Canada#Current...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Court_of_Canada#Current_members)).

~~~
pervycreeper
> I have to retract my "for the most part". I was thinking of Nadon... but he
> was previous Federal Court of Appeal and Federal Court.

Well even after the ninja edits, your comment still reeks of overclass
condescension, using meaningless feel-words ("very good at their jobs",
"measured, professional understanding"), essentially saying , "trust them,
pleb, they know better than you".

~~~
eropple
_> Well even after the ninja edits, your comment still reeks of overclass
condescension, using meaningless feel-words ("very good at their jobs",
"measured, professional understanding"), essentially saying , "trust them,
pleb, they know better than you"._

You don't think it might be an allusion to the American Supreme Court's habit
of legislating how they personally feel rather than with any serious basis in
fact or precedence? Chill.

------
dobbsbob
This will help suck the profits of org crime should legislation ever happen
(won't with the current hawkish regime). Currently it is illegal to run a
bawdy house unless it's a false front massage parlour so gangs run micro
brothels which are condos stacked full of foreign girls. They tend to jack
each other's brothels since it's a cash biz and police aren't called due to
the condo operation being illegal. When sex workers can run their own and not
worry about getting robbed these guys will have to get a job

------
dmix
Here is the court case that brought this ruling: Bedford v. Canada

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedford_v._Canada](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedford_v._Canada)

------
timo9
Contrary to popular belief, (most of) the US, (most of) Africa, (most of) Asia
and Russia are among the only places where prostitution is in fact illegal.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_by_country](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_by_country)

~~~
spkb4uthk
what's popular belief? US, Africa, Asia, and Russia seem to make up like 75+%
of the world.

------
angersock
One wonders...what is the legality of running a "service provider" from the US
but incorporated in Canada for something like this?

Like, say, a scheduling/reservation app for this?

~~~
jmccree
Next big idea: Uber for sex.

~~~
saraid216
Grindr?

~~~
venomsnake
Wasn't that gay only?

~~~
gaius
Tindr is the straight one.

------
auctiontheory
Ironic that we sitting in the West learn about this from an Arab news service,
i.e. from the most conservative and anti-woman region in the world.

~~~
mmphosis
Al Jazeera has bureaus around the world. Pretty much all of the American
content originates from the U.S. Many of the news people at Al Jazeera were
formerly from CBS, ABC and CBC.

------
gjmulhol
Canada, where you can now find the world's most polite sex workers...in
addition to the most polite everything else.

------
cobolorum
I just wish that their ruling was a little more broad and far reaching in its
effect. For those like myself who believe in self-ownership this is a no
brainer, and it would seem that people are recognizing the basics of self-
ownership in this case, but refuse to do so in almost every other facet of
modern Western law.

------
trapped
Why is this on HN? I feel very frustrated and sorry for HN. Lately there has
been influx of Reddit users who are posting similar content and encouraging
such links by upvoting it.

PG - If you are reading this.Can we please do something to keep sanity of HN.
Save HN.

------
draugadrotten
Sex workers may not have another choice, but the clients do.

~~~
Raphmedia
Most people who turn to sex workers are people that have no access sex
otherwise or who need, for some reason, to go see elsewhere.

Three choices here: 1\. Prostitution 2\. Rape 3\. One nights

One is an health risk, another is simply wrong... prostitution is expensive.

I would gladly give those people access to better, healthier, more regulated
services.

~~~
buttsex
4\. Masturbation

I wouldn't count rape as an alternative to sex. It's more about having power
over someone in a disgusting way.

~~~
tsotha
Despite academic efforts to redefine the word, rape is sex. It may not be
ethical or legal, and it may be violent, but anything that can get you
pregnant is sex.

------
notastartup
good good. now PLEASE legalize marijuana, tax it to pay off the olympic debt
and free Marc Emery.

~~~
sliverstorm
This article is about Canada.

~~~
ehPReth
I think (s)he knows that, the references all apply to Canada.

~~~
sliverstorm
Marc Emery is Canadian, but imprisoned in the USA. So how could Canada free
him?

~~~
dragonwriter
There are mechanisms that nation-states have used to free people imprisoned in
other nation-states without the cooperation of the imprisoning nation-state --
they frequently, however, have significant repercussions in the relations
between the nation-states that make it inadvisable for a less-powerful nation-
state to use them against a more-powerful one even if they have the capacity
to acheive short-term success.

~~~
vacri
Neither Canada nor the US are nation-states. That term specifically means a
country where the people are pretty ethnically or culturally homogenous.

~~~
dragonwriter
The exact level of shared culture necessary to have a "nation" in the sense of
"nation-state" is infinitely debatable, but the statement at issue is just
true of states generally, so while your point might arguably be true, its not
all that relevant.

~~~
vacri
I didn't mean to counter what you were saying - I was just mentioning that
nation-state is not the appropriate term for these entities.

