
Cheap Chinese electric cars are coming to the US and Europe - prostoalex
https://qz.com/1541380/the-cheapest-chinese-electric-cars-are-coming-to-the-us-and-europe/
======
dv_dt
These seem like utility (landscaping) grade golf carts that are already a
market in the US. Available in mostly gas, but some electric forms.

[https://www.deere.com/en/gator-utility-
vehicles/](https://www.deere.com/en/gator-utility-vehicles/)

[https://www.toro.com/en/sports-fields-
municipalities/utility...](https://www.toro.com/en/sports-fields-
municipalities/utility-vehicles)

[https://www.catresourcecenter.com/machine/landscaping/utilit...](https://www.catresourcecenter.com/machine/landscaping/utility-
vehicles/)

~~~
ngngngng
I just don't get it. a John Deere Gator with two seats and 4 wheels, and not
much else costs over $7000 new. No windows, No airbags, pathetic top speed,
not road legal.

A Lada 4x4 costs less than that brand new in Russia. Road legal, standard car
top speed. Known as a very reliable car. Why can't I buy a really cheap car in
the United States?

edit: also the lada 4x4 is possibly the coolest car i've ever seen, in it's
own unique way. I would do anything to import one, but it's not legal.

~~~
MrRadar
"Road legal" has a different standard in the US. To sell a car in the US it
must have airbags, ABS, electronic stability control, a backup camera (also
implying a decently-large full-color display on the dashboard), and it must
meet USDOT, NHTSA, and EPA standards (each of which are slightly incompatible
with standards from other regions, and intentionally so as a soft trade
barrier). I'm guessing that the Lada 4x4 would be too close to a "real" car to
be sold as a "not-car" offroad-only vehicle but would require too many changes
to be sold cost-effectively as a "real" car in the US.

~~~
gamegoblin
FWIW if the car is >= 25 years old, most of these regulations go away.

I have a 1990 Subaru Sambar pickup truck [1] imported from Japan that is
street legal and registered in Washington state. It’s probably only a tiny bit
safer than a motorcycle because it has seatbelts. Maybe cancelled out by the
fact that I don’t wear a helmet while driving it.

You can get them for $3K - 5K depending on condition and they are excellent
little city trucks that get fantastic fuel economy. Getting used to the right-
side drive and shifting left handed wasn’t so bad. The hard part is the
blinkers and windshield wipers are swapped!

[1]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_Sambar#/media/File%3A...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_Sambar#/media/File%3ASubaru_Sambar_Truck_5th_Generation_001.JPG)

~~~
jamessantiago
You just rekindled my long time desire to own one of these. I saw them all
over the place in okinawa and I have a die-cast toy car of one somewhere
around here. I remember there was someone who put that longhorn decoration you
see as a texas cliche on one. They definitely are pretty neat. It would be
great for hauling landscaping items from my local nursery without having to
get a full sized truck.

~~~
ngngngng
I'm with you, I've always admired the teeny utility trucks I see when I travel
in China. It never occurred to me I could just import one thats >25 years old.

~~~
gamegoblin
Some states won't register kei-trucks, so check with your state first. There
are a few importers that keep some on stock.

For example, here is a big one in southern WA:
[https://www.nwminitrucks.com/inventory/active](https://www.nwminitrucks.com/inventory/active)

And here is where I got mine in Seattle: [http://sodo-moto.com/in-
stock/?shipment=in-stock&body-style=...](http://sodo-moto.com/in-
stock/?shipment=in-stock&body-
style=truck&listing_order=make&listing_orderby=ASC)

------
akshatrathi
I wrote this article and a field guide on China's electric-car boom
[https://qz.com/guide/electric-cars/](https://qz.com/guide/electric-cars/).
Happy to answer any questions.

~~~
zazen
Are these road-legal in the west? If the off-road farm and construction-site
applications are the only use-cases, that would seem to rather limit the
impact on the market.

~~~
matthewaveryusa
These I'm not sure, but overall yes they can be street legal: The Renault
Twizy -- I've seen them in France and in Cambridge, MA
([https://www.bonzer.rocks/](https://www.bonzer.rocks/)) They're in use and
cost ~10k. Last time I checked you can get a 25mpg and a 50mpg version. While
the 25mpg versions are street legal and available now in the US market, I
believe the 50mpg version is still only available in europe.

[https://www.renault.fr/vehicules/vehicules-
electriques/twizy...](https://www.renault.fr/vehicules/vehicules-
electriques/twizy.html)

~~~
seren
The trick with Renault Twizy is that it is not registered as a proper car, but
rather as some kind of motorcycle with a roof, so it does not have really
stringent safety requirements.

~~~
rmcpherson
Because it is not a motor vehicle by insurance and Legal standards in the USA
it does not require a license or insurance to operate. If you are hit by one
of these, you’ll find there’s no insurance to cover you other than your health
insurance. Underinsured coverage on your auto policy will not apply either, as
it would if you were hit by a motor vehicle. Source: this just happened to me.

~~~
gamblor956
Generally, while your insurer (health, auto, homeowner, or otherwise) would
cover your initial costs, you would get reimbursed by suing the driver of the
golf cart that hit you and they would either personally be liable or pay
through their insurance company.

~~~
rmcpherson
The difference is that it’s illegal to drive a motor vehicle without liability
insurance. With other vehicles, that can be just as lethal to pedestrians or
cyclists, there is no such requirement. In my case, the driver who hit me was
homeless with no insurance of any kind.

------
Poiesis
At that price point I'd enthusiastically recommend a three year old Nissan
Leaf; that's about what I paid and it's served me well.

~~~
twblalock
The resale value is so bad (except for Teslas) that it probably makes more
sense to lease electric cars than to buy new.

Every generation of electric cars is such a big improvement over the previous
one, especially in terms of range and fast charging, that the resale value of
the old ones is unusually low.

~~~
Brakenshire
It will be interesting at what point we’ll hit “good enough”. Somewhere around
200 miles of reliable range and 100kW charging speed I think is where it
ceases to matter for most people. If you have off street parking you’ll only
need to use a fast charger for road trips, and then you can drive for 3 hour
periods with half an hour rest in between. We’re not quite there but not far
off.

~~~
twblalock
I think it's really more about the relative increase in range vs the absolute
number. If a new car has 100 more miles of range than a used car, that will
hurt the resale value of the used car.

This is especially true today because the used cars didn't have that much
range to begin with, but I suspect that will still be true when the current
300-mile cars are replaced with 400-mile or 500-mile cars. People want a lot
more range than they actually need.

------
Someone1234
I'd technically be in the demographic for this. I have a less than 10 mile
commute.

However, that 28 MpH maximum speed is a legitimate limitation/problem, even on
my under 10 mile commute, there's at least two roads that are 40 MpH (people
drive 45 MpH), and I'm going to get honked at if I can barely maintain 28 MpH.

I like the price and concept... But that max speed is a deal breaker. It will
be interesting to see what cost a freeway model is.

~~~
brightball
These are literally golf carts. Exact same usage as a golf cart.

~~~
Shivetya
the usage cases are just going to be so limited, the liability of letting them
on the road will probably be moot if the NHTSA holds them to the same crash
standards as cars.

I just don't see it, the "upscale" neighborhood adjacent to us is replete with
golf carts and most of those are electric, but they have wide sidewalks to
support them as the rules do not allow them on road ways.

------
justaguyhere
When a foreigner lands in the US, the first thing she'd notice are how _big_
things are - cars, super markets, the amount of food they give in restaurants,
the size of soda cups, popcorn "buckets" etc. Americans like their big cars.
I've heard them make fun of small cars as "toys" many times. It would be
interesting to see how these tiny cars are received in a market that is used
to having pretty much everything big.

~~~
Renaud
I would assume that in high-density areas, having a smaller car that's easier
to control and park would be an advantage over the bigger cars. Fuel cost is
also a factor with smaller cars usually being more efficient, especially in
urban traffic conditions.

I would expect these electric cars would probably compete with these smaller
models in dense urban areas.

~~~
azinman2
Yet the smart car never really took off, even in said high-density areas.

~~~
so33
Maybe the smart car was too small, but “Small” cars (by American standards,
anyway) are still popular. They’re just disguised as SUVs and classified as
“subcompact crossovers”. With how wide American roads tend to be, the Smart
car is perhaps unnecessarily small for America.

~~~
azinman2
Yet you can park in many spaces in SF that a regular car cannot. So it can’t
just be about utility...

------
tabtab
The US market is notoriously unforgiving of bad quality cars. Hyundai and
Detroit are still trying to repair their damaged reputations from decades ago.

Americans are car connoisseurs similar to how the French are food and drink
connoisseurs. Tread carefully.

~~~
saberience
Car connoisseurs? Americans? Are you making a joke?

Everything here is a huge, gas guzzling SUV, or a Ford F150 truck.

Americans don't care about road feel/driving mechanics, artistic or elegant
design. They want a huge and loud car to show other people how much better
they are than them. Ideally, the bigger and louder and more brash, the better.

This is a country that came up with "rolling coal" for god's sake.

[https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/05/business/energy-
environme...](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/05/business/energy-
environment/rolling-coal-in-diesel-trucks-to-rebel-and-provoke.html)

~~~
tabtab
There are different kinds of connoisseurs. While Europeans tend to prefer
agile sports-cars, in part because they have more winding roads, less people
do drive there.

------
alkonaut
I'd love a golf cart type car but the days I need it most it's -10C or -20C
(Think around zero freedom degrees) and I don't trust these manufacturers to
do the kind of winter testing I'm expecting. If any plastics give up, or
battery thermals don't at least allow the same kind of range-fraction a Leaf
or Model3 does in (really) cold weather, it's not going to work. Even my
french petrol car is absolutely _terrible_ in winter compared to a German or
Swedish. Drive a few miles through slosh, leave the car out over night, then
the brake calipers seize (No handbrake applied). My VW is excellent in
comparison with a folding out rear view camera for example, that works even
when ice covered (Tesla should take a note).

This is the problem with cars: you can't get one for just 3 seasons.

~~~
bluGill
I really only need a car for 3 reasons: rain, cold and snow. Last week it was
-30C here (real temperature, wind made it worse), no way will I walk/bike in
that. Week before we get snow/ice - the roads were slippery enough that I
wouldn't want to not have a cage around me.

I can bike on those nice fall days when everything is easy. (I can bike on
those hot summer days but it isn't as fun)

------
Xixi
As a comparison I looked at the two best sellers in Europe [1]: Nissan Leaf
and Renault Zoe. Renault Zoe is the cheapest at 22,900 USD without battery
(which can be rent) or 31,350 USD with battery. Renting the battery is a
popular choice in the EU (at least in France, not sure in other countries).

[1] [https://cleantechnica.com/2019/02/03/europe-ev-sales-
renault...](https://cleantechnica.com/2019/02/03/europe-ev-sales-renault-zoe-
wins-in-december-nissan-leaf-takes-2018-title/)

~~~
jobigoud
These cars are closer to the Renault Twizy.

------
mdgrech23
No crash protection? Almost 10k? I can get a decent used vehicle for 10k with
a better top speed and crash protection. Seems like a no brainer to me to
stick w/ a traditional model.

~~~
akshatrathi
I didn't say there's no crash protection on the Pickman. It's the $1000 cars
sold in China that don't have them. Pretty sure that to qualify in the US and
Europe, the Kaiyun car need to a minimum level of safety features.

~~~
HashHishBang
According to this retailer (I think it's a retailer at least) "crash
protection" is not really an included feature.

[http://www.trackandfieldmotors.com/info.php?car_id=133](http://www.trackandfieldmotors.com/info.php?car_id=133)

~~~
tk75x
ABS, roof bars, traction control, and airbags are all what I would consider
crash protection. EDIT: Didn't see the traction control the first time around.

------
cmrdporcupine
If it can have a snow plow mounted on the front and it has a trailer hitch,
I'd buy one just for use on my hobby farm. Assuming they make it to Canada. I
don't need it to be road legal, either. Just needs to be narrow enough to get
down an 8' vineyard row, and be able to push a couple feet of snow.

~~~
pedrocr
For those uses just buy a John Deere Gator or a Toro Workman. Best purchase we
ever made for our hobby farm. Relatively easy to find cheap used ones and
maintenance is really simple to do yourself. We have the Workman. The electric
motor climbs anything and is very easy to modulate for use in tight maneuvers.
The turning radius is so small it can go anywhere it will physically fit.

~~~
cmrdporcupine
They make an electric Gator now? Looked a few years ago and it wasn't really
an option. Do they actually have proper industrial or agri tires as an option?

I guess it's just lead acid, tho? Must be heavy and low range. I'd love
something like that with a J1772 plug so I can use my existing L2 EVSE

~~~
pedrocr
They've always made one. It's lead acid but has more than enough range for a
day of work at the farm. Weight just helps with traction. Recent models have
the charger on the car so you just need a place with an outlet. There are
plenty of tire options out there too. I bought it with turf tires and replaced
the rear ones with some nice offroad tires. It drives through pretty much
anything now. Here are the ones I got:

[https://www.carlislebrandtires.com/our-products/product-
deta...](https://www.carlislebrandtires.com/our-products/product-
detail/at-498)

There are plenty ATV choices that fit but ones with high loading ratings are
needed to support the car and the load.

------
zellyn
I work about six to eight miles from home (depending on the route) in Atlanta.
I bike in as often as I can, but I would be all over a cheap electric
alternative that was rain-proof. I don't see this as a car replacement so much
as a bicycle alternative.

~~~
Poiesis
I commented earlier about buying a used Leaf instead of the car in the
article. I just wanted to mention that it's a great bicycle alternative for me
too. Used to bike to work before I had four kids going different places.

~~~
manmal
I wonder why those are so cheap in the US. A 4 yo Leaf costs €16k where I
live, and that’s considered a bargain actually.

~~~
crowdpleaser
A used leaf doesn't appeal to a lot of people.

A lot of used leafs are down to 60-80 miles of usable range, IIRC the average
American commutes something like 15 miles each way, missing a charge or adding
errands can put someone in a tight spot. And the weather in most American
cities is 'extreme' \- either winter is very cold (bad for battery range) or
hot (bad for battery longevity in the leaf). My old city of minneapolis would
have winter lows near -40 degrees C and would hit 38-40 degrees C every
summer. That's very demanding for batteries.

America doesn't have a lot of charging infrastructure and unless you're a
homeowner or live in a luxury apartment or work at a tech company or a company
with an i.t competency, it's probably going to be hard to charge regularly.

Our cheap gas erodes the cost advantages of electric, you can find priuses (a
Toyota hybrid) for $3k in any major city and that's going to give an electric
car a serious run for its money in energy costs.

------
mimixco
I think these are a terrific idea! If someone wants to ride around without
crash protection, they're already able to do that in the US. It's called a
motorcycle.

Individual buyers should be free to choose how much safety they want in their
vehicles vs. how much they're willing to pay.

~~~
ph33t
Yes. I agree so much. Everyone should be _free_ to purchase the car they want.
If it sucks gas, the free market takes care of it with gas costs. I pay a
_ton_ more in gas tax (priced per gallon) than a smaller car. I also am free
to use the suburban for what I want ... long road trips with my family of 5.
Towing my boat. Hauling wood. I am also free to park the thing in my garage,
because weather permitting (meaning above 10 degrees F) I commute 15 miles
each way on my bicycle. My choice. Not anyone else's - including (and
especially) the government.

------
jaclaz
These will go (in Europe) in the same range of so-called tiny-cars
(quadricycles), discussed here:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18061897](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18061897)

------
howard941
I'd prefer something _like_ this for my in-city commute over the already-
allowed golf cart, but not at that price point.

~~~
oblio
> but not at that price point

Are they too expensive?

~~~
monochromatic
$9000 seems like a lot for something so limited.

~~~
akshatrathi
Yeah, I'd like to buy them at the price they sell it in China: $2,500.

~~~
yellowapple
I suspect the price difference is due to different standards of "road-
worthiness" in China v. the US.

------
fignews
In the US you can buy a used Fiat 500 Electric or Chevy Spark Electric for
around the same price.

~~~
akshatrathi
Good point. Didn't realize that was possible now. But makes sense given how
long some electric cars have been now. Next time I write about LSEVs, I'll
make a note to mention second-hand electric cars.

------
yingw787
I sure hope these aren’t road legal. Maybe in warehouses or farms or golf
courses. Not roads.

~~~
akshatrathi
There will be an NHTSA approved road legal version, per Fox News
[https://www.foxnews.com/auto/new-half-ton-electric-pickup-
co...](https://www.foxnews.com/auto/new-half-ton-electric-pickup-costs-
just-5700)

------
jwalton
These sorts of vehicles are road legal here in Ontario under a pilot program:

[http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/vehicles/low-speed-
vehicles...](http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/vehicles/low-speed-
vehicles.shtml)

But I haven't seen much adoption. You're only allowed to drive them on roads
with a speed limit of 50km/h (30mph) or lower, and at least in my city that
would make them fairly impractical to get around as all the major roads that
connect one community to another are 60km/h or more.

------
maybeiambatman
I'd happily buy one for city commutes when they become available.

------
pier25
I'm surprised China is going straight to the first world markets. These could
be a hit in developing countries like Mexico (at China prices).

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
Developing countries don't have reliable power delivery networks with enough
reserve capacity to handle a surge in demand to charge these cars.

~~~
llampx
Citizens of developing countries often take more of the infrastructure into
their own hands than first-worlders. I can completely see someone buying a
cheap-ish EV and a bunch of solar cells to go on their roof with it. Once you
pay off the initial costs, you have free energy and cheap transportation. Not
to mention that the power grid is often more reliable at night, when most EVs
would be charged, than in the daytime.

------
DeonPenny
I would guess these work better in china which is a more dense country without
the driving culture the US at least has. A car that goes 28mph with a limited
range is basically a scooter.

~~~
akshatrathi
With a 450 kg load capacity, but yes.

------
btilly
And this is how I expected electric cars to come to the USA before Tesla
changed the rules.

Of course if Tesla goes belly up, this could still be how our all electric
future starts.

------
EricE
I was hoping Trump would kill the chicken tax in his gusto to eliminate
tariffs. There aren't any small trucks in the US because manufacturers found
out they (a) don't have to offer them and (b) make more money from larger
cars.

Mahindra was going to bring some interesting cheap mini-trucks but the chicken
tax among other things scuttled it.

[https://www.cheatsheet.com/automobiles/7-trucks-that-
might-b...](https://www.cheatsheet.com/automobiles/7-trucks-that-might-be-
imported-to-the-united-states-soon.html/)

------
amigiac
They don't mention the range...

~~~
bluGill
That is one of the things not mentioned. Do they have heat/AC, do they work
when it is -30, how do they do in a crash (granted at a 28mph top speed they
don't need much production). Will they be road legal?

I'm interested, my 4 mile commute never gets to 30mph anyway, but I need to be
sure it will work for me vs just be another ATV that I have no use for. (I
just moved, my bike is someplace but until the weather improves I'm not in a
hurry to find it).

After looking closer I have more questions: will I fit? I'm only slightly
taller than average (about a standard deviation more), but the pictures I can
find in a search suggest that I wouldn't fit.

~~~
AJ007
I may wildly presumptive (based on the photo in the article), but if there
aren't any doors I'm not sure how useful heat/AC would be.

~~~
bluGill
If heat/AC is not useful, then I'm not a customer. If they can (magic?) make
useful heat/AC without doors I'm fine with that. (though that does bring up
the question - if I go through a puddle will I stay dry?)

------
myrandomcomment
Looking for a car for my daughter (15). Requirements in order:

Safety crash rating AWD Small Electric

No solution set found. :(

------
onetimemanytime
>> _they run on cheap lead-acid batteries, and they have little to no crash
protection._

Hello Chinese cars, Welcome to America and you've been served.

assuming DOT or whoever tests them even let's them in the road.

------
agumonkey
A great stealth way to limit speeding I suppose.

------
known
Calling cheap is rude. Inexpensive?

------
buboard
these seem great to replace scooters in european cities.

------
touristtam
So like Aixam?

------
solotronics
there is 0 chance of these being sold as road legal in the US market

------
fxfan
Not if Trump deems the talks with China to have failed and levies tax. I've
watched too many liveleaks to be able to sit in anything China made

~~~
swarnie_
Can't see Trumps opinion holding much weight in Europe to be honest.

~~~
bluGill
Probably, but I live in the US so like it or not they hold weight to me.

------
megaman8
Notice how much more we pay vs how much they pay: "The base Chinese model
sells for 16,800 yuan ($2,500). The US version will start at $8,950 ".

Probably due to regulation, at least in part: it drives up costs almost 300%.

