
Disembodied pig brains revived: Your questions answered - bookofjoe
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-01289-1
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kwhitefoot
The title is very misleading (I know that it is the title on Nature's own
site). The pigs brains were not revived; when stimulated, neurons were
observed behaving as live neurons do but the overall coordination of the brain
was not reinstated. This is a long way from revival.

~~~
nils-m-holm
From the article:

> In this study, the researchers deliberately prevented the pig brains from
> regaining consciousness, by using chemicals to block neurons from firing.

> And last year, researchers at the University of California, San Diego,
> reported that ‘mini brains’ grown in a dish had spontaneously produced
> human-like brain waves for the first time.

Maybe the way is not that long!

~~~
basetop
That's disturbing. Rather than producing "human-like brain waves", we stay
with growing mini-brains with worm-like or insect-like brain-waves for a very
very long time until we master simpler neural systems. We know so little about
the brain and consciousness that I think we should err on the side of caution.
100 years from now, imagine if we learned that these "mini brains" had
semblence of human consciousness that we weren't aware of. It would
horrifying.

But I also don't know how we can advance in neuroscience without taking some
risks. So much of knowledge and advancement requires us breaking things apart
and making mistakes. Maybe the risks are worth it especially for something as
important as knowledge of the brain and consciousness. In many ways, is there
anything more important than that?

~~~
adrianN
We don't have a definition of consciousness that allows us to test whether
something is conscious or not, or at least I never heard of one.

~~~
rhn_mk1
That is the problem the grandparent is getting at. We don't have a widely
accepted definition, and therefore we should tread lightly, without assuming
that we're not even close to crossing that boundary.

~~~
egeozcan
We also don't have a definition of God. We should thread lightly as anything
can make her angry.

Sorry for the sarcasm (I'm definitely not trying to be impolite) but it was
honestly my best attempt to make my point.

~~~
rhn_mk1
That's right, and the previous poster recognizes that:

> I also don't know how we can advance in neuroscience without taking some
> risks

I replied, because pointing out that we don't have a definition of something
is unproductive in both ways: "we don't know what consciousness is? so let's
drop precautions" is just as bad as "we don't know what consciousness is? so
let's stop in place". It's quite understandable to me to feel that
experimentation in this area are disturbing to someone who doesn't know what
model of consciousness was used to ensure that nothing immoral is being done.
The answers provided in the article don't really address that.

I also don't agree that consciousness is a complete mystery. We can infer
criteria based on various measures of similarity, although the one criterion
given in the article: "brain-wide activity that would indicate the organs
could be conscious" doesn't offer any explanation as to where the criterion
comes from. I take this as a failure to explain and justify that the
precautions taken to eliminate the risk were enough.

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methou
I believe now it's a very good time to reread the book _I will fear no evil_
by Robert A. Heinlein.

~~~
dmos62
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Will_Fear_No_Evil](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Will_Fear_No_Evil)

SPOILER:

Last paragraph of the plot summary. I found this paragraph particularly nutty
(not necessarily in a bad way):

> Joan marries her lawyer, Jake Salomon, and moves her household and friends
> onto a boat. Jake has a massive rupture of a large blood vessel in his brain
> and dies, but his personality is saved and joins Smith and Eunice in Joan's
> head. She (Joan, Eunice and Jake) immigrates to the Moon to find a better
> future for her child. Once there, her body starts to reject her (Smith's)
> transplanted brain. She dies during childbirth.

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th33ngineer
Wow, I needed to stop reading that about halfway through. My mind goes to
weird places when I think about consciousness in the abstract like that.

~~~
ZeroFries
There's a form of meditation where you try and just be aware of awareness
itself, and it can do similarly weird things.

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aiCeivi9
It reminds me of
[https://www.earthexplodes.com/comics/200/](https://www.earthexplodes.com/comics/200/)
(NSFL ?). It is probably what this experiment looks like from pigs
perspective.

~~~
stared
Similar to Black Mirror: Black Museum. Anda few others in that season.

------
mirimir
Wow. Greg Egan's _Distress_ (chapter 1) in reality.

> All right. He's dead. Go ahead and talk to him.

"He" being a murder victim.

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dTal
A lot of people are mentioning brain-in-vat type fiction, so I'll just name-
drop the earliest example I know of (and my favorite) - "William and Mary" by
Roald Dahl in 1959. I'd be curious if anyone can name an earlier example.

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cybertronic
The most interesting question/answer is the last: "What does this mean for the
possibility of cryonics?" "No one has tested whether the system would work on
brains that have been frozen."

So that should be one of the next steps

~~~
tempestn
Until we have a vitrification process that doesn't do significant tissue
damage, that will be difficult. It is being worked on though, as the ability
to freeze organs would revolutionize transplants.

~~~
ben_w
I thought that was demonstrated on animals last year, and the team had started
looking for human volunteers?

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16577627](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16577627)

~~~
tempestn
Hadn't heard of that, but it appears they used a different sort of process,
which will preserve some state, but only to a degree; it's not expected to
preserve the organ such that it would be viable when thawed.

 _> It proved effective at preserving an entire brain to the nanometer level,
including the connectome—the web of synapses that connect neurons.

> A connectome map could be the basis for re-creating a particular person’s
> consciousness, believes Ken Hayworth, a neuroscientist who is president of
> the Brain Preservation Foundation—the organization that, on March 13,
> recognized McIntyre and Fahy’s work with the prize for preserving the pig
> brain.

> There’s no expectation here that the preserved tissue can be actually
> brought back to life, as is the hope with Alcor-style cryonics. Instead, the
> idea is to retrieve information that’s present in the brain’s anatomical
> layout and molecular details._

While some may believe that the connectome alone is sufficient to define
memory and consciousness, there are reasons to believe it's more complicated
than that, so I have my doubts.

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RobertDeNiro
Most of the answers start with 'We don't know'

~~~
b3kart
That's how it is in cutting edge research. It is much better to say "we don't
know" than to speculate, which is what a natural reaction of many other
researchers would be.

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linuxftw
I've been thinking that bio-engineered primates would replace agricultural
workers and other low-skill labor jobs for some time.

Bio-mechanical brains might prove to be useful automation engines. Would you
utilize a self-driving car that's powered by a bio-mechanical brain?

Seems quicker and easier to bring a primate brain to human-level intellect
than to bring a machine.

~~~
zerogvt
And before long, someone asks why just automation engines? If you can get a
bio-mechanical brain to drive a car you can get it to understand Math, C++,
Law and what not. All at a much lower cost than training a full human being...
And before long someone will think that - hey, how do we know this has not
already happened? ...

