
China's Nio takes on Tesla with a car half the price of Model X - SirLJ
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/17/chinas-nio-takes-on-tesla-with-a-car-half-the-price-of-model-x.html
======
flexie
Articles like this is when you doubt whether journalism even deserves to
survive (it does, inspite of the abundance of these poorly written, never
researhed pieces). CNBC is a larger network, not the weekly paper in a small
town. Why don’t they have someone with a bit of knowledge in cars or tech edit
an article like this? Can they really not afford that?

There is barely any info on the car and the little info they give is obviously
wrong. Why do they compare it to model X and not model 3; is it because its
specs are simular to model X? Doesn’t look like a van or SUV at all.

Edit: here is a better article on the car with relevant info:
[https://electrek.co/2017/12/16/nio-es8-all-electric-suv-
batt...](https://electrek.co/2017/12/16/nio-es8-all-electric-suv-battery-swap-
renting-structure/)

~~~
dsp1234
_Why do they compare it to model X and not model 3; is it because its specs
are simular to model X? Doesn’t look like a van or SUV at all._

ES8[0]

Model X[1]

Comparing these two, the ES8 is bit blockier like the current set of
crossovers. Whereas the Model X has the body shaping of a really big sedan.
Neither have the 100% of the classic SUV look, but both have 5 seats and
hatchback with a dedicated cargo area. Neither is like the Model 3, which is a
sedan with a normal trunk.

[0] - [https://www.nio.io/prod/s3fs-
public/styles/scale_width_3840/...](https://www.nio.io/prod/s3fs-
public/styles/scale_width_3840/public/hero/935_AT_NextEV_Teaser_Profile_v8a_R.jpg)

[1] -
[https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/images/model-x/sec...](https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/images/model-x/section-
hero-background.jpg)

------
thinkcontext
What a horrible article. It doesn't have something as basic as the car's range
and it gets the monthly battery subscription cost wrong. But the worst part is
it just repeats "Tesla" as many times as possible. Tesla is a tiny part of the
Chinese EV market, see [1] for recent monthly sales breakdown.

There is plenty of interesting stuff happening in the market and this
company's battery swapping could be interesting. This article managed to miss
all that.

[1] [https://cleantechnica.com/2017/09/30/china-electric-car-
sale...](https://cleantechnica.com/2017/09/30/china-electric-car-sales-reach-
record-month-ev-sales/)

~~~
lafar6502
Yep they even placed a Tesla commercial in the article, was it really
necessary?

------
mattmaroon
"($19,366) a month"

Remember when journalism had features such as copy editing?

~~~
pjc50
"At its launch on Saturday, Nio introduced a battery charging plan with a
rental subscription set at 128,000 yuan ($19,366) a month."

Oops! It looks like the press release with the decimal in the correct place is
here:
[http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/3598606](http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/3598606)
at a more reasonable $194.

~~~
mattmaroon
That makes a lot more sense. It still seems rather pricey (I have a pickup and
it doesn't eat $200/mo worth of gas, as at that price what's the point of an
EV?). But a copy editor would have looked at that and thought "you could
purchase fractional ownership of a jet for less than the cost to charge that
car, so this must be wrong."

Excuse me while I go yell at kids to get off my lawn.

~~~
pjc50
"which provides a RMB 100,000 discount on the purchase price of the ES8" =>
about $15k, or just over 6 years of ownership.

It looks like the original cnbc article is even more wrong about this,
describing it as a charging plan when it's just a lease on the battery.

------
kuceram
You know how it goes with China and you know how it goes with Chines cars...

[http://www.cartoq.com/50-copy-cat-cars-from-
china/](http://www.cartoq.com/50-copy-cat-cars-from-china/)

~~~
finchisko
Landwind X7 have 90% look of Land Rover Evoque though. It would probably have
crapy engine, interior ..,, but my point is that chinese cars are definitely
improving.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Even Chinese prefer foreign brands to domestic ones (if they can afford it)
even though almost all of those are made in china under 51-49 JVs. I’ve
personally never been impressed by a chinese car that wasn’t an outright
clone, well maybe those new BYD electric taxis running Beijing.

A friend of mine worked a contract with JAC once to help them...design the
info-tainment system for their upbrand Audi A5 compete, which involved copying
Audi’s system as much as possible then parring it back because they weren’t
willing to use high end hardware in it.

~~~
taobility
Does American prefer Germany/Japanese cars or USA cars?

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Oddly enough, I feel American brands are more popular in china than in
America. Buik for example. Some of my coworkers at Ms china even drove Fords,
something that wouldn’t happen easily in Redmond.

------
mongol
Hacker News crowd might be interested to hear that Saab lives on as "NEVS"
under Chinese ownership and management and will launch as electrical vehicle.

[http://www.thedrive.com/sheetmetal/16729/swedens-nevs-has-
re...](http://www.thedrive.com/sheetmetal/16729/swedens-nevs-has-reincarnated-
the-saab-9-3-as-an-electric-car)

~~~
gjem97
In what regard is that car a "Saab"? Same factory? Same IP? Certainly doesn't
look like same designer.

~~~
rowyourboat
Sold by the same corporate entity that produced the vehicles branded as SAAB,
albeit under a new owner.

~~~
gjem97
I don't want to get into the "grandfather's axe"-level semiotics argument, but
if most of the people who worked at Saab in 2010 no longer work there, and the
car is made in a different factory in China, it doesn't make much difference
to me that there's a piece of paper that says it's the "same company". I just
don't know if either of those things is true.

~~~
rowyourboat
I don't know about the people, but they are still using the same factory.

------
tardo99
In my opinion, Tesla is a fantastic luxury car brand and will continue to be
so (assuming they can continue to get funding for their plans).

That said, I don't think they will be able to compete in the midrange and
economy segments. The competition is too fierce, and their key value
proposition (their brand) isn't as helpful once you're dealing with budget-
conscious consumers.

In my opinion, Tesla shouldn't have gone after the mid-market with the Model
3. They should have continued to compete against BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, etc.
where they have a durable competitive advantage.

~~~
neon_electro
Do you think the Model 3 competes with the BMW 3 Series/Audi A4?

~~~
gamblor956
It depends on how you compare them. Based on driving performance
(acceleration, braking, turn handling, etc.), the Model 3 arguably out-
competes its in-class competition.

Based on driving experience excluding performance (i.e., interior comfort, QC,
etc.) it's worst-in-class. The interior furnishings are about equal to a Kia
or Scion--both of which are in a different, less-expensive, class of cars.
Tesla's QC is about on par with Dodge, which is not a compliment, as Dodge has
consistently been a bottom-dweller in the reliability department for years.

So it boils down to this: if you want an EV as your primary commuter vehicle,
the Model 3 isn't it. If you want a Model 3 as a secondary car, it's probably
worth it for the cool factor _if Tesla 's quality control improves_ but until
then it's not worth it.

------
tomxor
Who cares, it's another car for 6 figure earners. Seriously how many here on
hackers news can afford to spend ~120k on a car? ...my car cost the rounding
error of that number.

------
mholt
> At its launch on Saturday, Nio introduced a battery charging plan with a
> rental subscription set at 128,000 yuan ($19,366) a month.

$20k/mo to charge the car?

~~~
est
1,280 RMB per months for exchangeable batteries.

~~~
jason_slack
which is about $205 USD/month.

~~~
Fjolsvith
About what I pay for gas.

~~~
jason_slack
me too, total for 2 cars.

~~~
taobility
you missed the part which the car price reduced by $15000. This concept as
some EV buyer worried about the battery attenuation. And with this model, you
don't need to worry about that

------
baybal2
It seem to be that two dominant models for EV battery tactics are emerging in
China:

1\. Sell genuinely good, high endurance battery pack that will last for a
lifetime of a car - BYD and other car makers using cells with LiFePo4 cathode

2\. Stuff the battery pack with a lot of cheap cells that will survive for two
to three seasons, and will be replaced after that for a sane price.

------
jason_slack
I actually am pretty fascinated recently with what Nio is trying at accomplish
and how they are trying to position themselves against Tesla in every way. I
mean just look at their home page. Cars, Power wall competitor, etc

[https://imgur.com/a/ThnAZ](https://imgur.com/a/ThnAZ)

~~~
baybal2
PRO TIP: If you are a Chinese company trying to play "startup mumbo jumbo"
card, try to convince gullible investors "we are just like that smart Western
company in every way, there is no way we fail if we copy them 1-to-1"

~~~
finchisko
I heard story, I don't it's think real (but imo funny) about China ordering
foreign experts to build nuclear reactor. They had guys with binoculars
watching those experts and building exactly same reactor over the hill.

Copycat^2

~~~
blacksmith_tb
Funny, but clearly not possible. For all the real examples of Chinese copying,
I think we're starting to see companies in China level up (DJI, Huawei,
Xiaomi, etc.). When I was a kid, 'Made in Japan' was scorned as junk, by the
time I was in college, it meant Sony and Toyota. I don't see any reason
Chinese goods wouldn't be on the same trajectory.

------
sharpercoder
Even if they succeed in building a Tesla worthy competitor, there is still the
huge issue of battery production. Tesla will lead the coming years not for its
nice car implementation but rather its production capacity of cheap high
quality batteries. I wonder how China will bring that production capacity.

~~~
thinkcontext
Given what is in the construction pipeline China will dominate by 2020
according to this

[http://www.visualcapitalist.com/china-leading-charge-
lithium...](http://www.visualcapitalist.com/china-leading-charge-lithium-ion-
megafactories/)

------
jason_slack
The US site is
[https://www.nio.io/?noredirect=](https://www.nio.io/?noredirect=)

China site seems to be [https://nio.com](https://nio.com).

------
Zigurd
A completely useless article, but the grain of truth deep inside is that the
real threat to Tesla isn't other vertically integrated car makers learning how
to make electric cars, but that car making will have low barriers to entry
like other horizontal markets in electronics.

Even that threat isn't that scary: Apple is ever more vertically integrated at
the top of the horizontal mobile handset business.

But there is a good chance that you'll be able to buy a good, usable electric-
drive car for a fraction of the price of a top of the line car, from a company
that you never heard of before.

------
basicplus2
Would like to see crash testing results on both vehicles

~~~
Reason077
China's NCAP is now pretty equivalent to the EU and US in terms of crash
safety.

At least for new models, the days of Chinese vehicles lagging far behind
western counterparts in crash safety are over.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _China 's NCAP is now pretty equivalent to the EU and US in terms of crash
> safety_

Source?

------
baybal2
No battery specs disclosed, keep fingers crossed - it may well be they stuffed
it with substandard cells.

------
WillReplyfFood
NiO is a shortcut in german for Nicht in Ordnung, which in factorys denotes
parts that are not okay. Is this a insider gag?

