
Apple and Foxconn broke a Chinese labor law to build the latest iPhones - freewizard
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-09-09/apple-foxconn-broke-a-chinese-labor-law-for-iphone-production
======
chillacy
A more accurate title is: suppliers break chinese labor law and apple's
internal standards in order to meet deadlines.

Apple does occasional audits, but what more can you do when the people you
audit lie to you because they _want_ to work?

> While overtime is allegedly often required, most workers want to work
> overtime to make more money, according to an anonymous diary written by a
> CLW investigator in the factory.

~~~
cwyers
Apple can do math. Apple can look at what they're getting and what they're
paying for it and run the figures and see what that comes to in terms of pay
for hours worked. At a certain point, asking for X and putting down rules that
make X impossible or highly improbable isn't getting conned, it's trying to
get to plausible deniability.

~~~
SpicyLemonZest
The complaints here don't seem to be that the workers were underpaid for hours
worked. It's hard to imagine what kind of math could let Apple look at "what
they're getting and what they're paying for it" and deduce the amount of
overtime or percentage of temps.

~~~
simonh
There's no question, they're definitely accountable for violations like this.
I think they know that, which is why they have the monitoring and interview
processes in place.

The question for me is, what's the mechanism for enforcing accountability down
the chain.

Foxconn operates the plants, so what is the mechanism for incentivising them
to comply? What penalties or sanctions do they face for violations? That's
really the only way to get to the root of this, but it can't be financial
penalties to Apple. That would create perverse incentives and moral hazard.

~~~
benj111
It isn't clear to me that they're "definitely accountable". The monitoring
could be in place for reputation reasons. Apple probably doesn't want negative
headlines across the western press about how their phones are made with slave
labour, or what ever.

~~~
madeofpalk
> The monitoring could be in place for reputation reasons

Which again, comes down to accountability.

~~~
benj111
What accountability are we talking about? As written it seems like we were
talking about legal accountability.

------
nurettin
Nobody is surprised about Foxconn breaking any kind of law. I worked with them
directly at a customs agency's software department. During our 6 month
integration project, Foxconn caused the resignation of one senior developer
and one software specialist. They basically wanted to use our systems to store
their private data and gradually demanded that we act like their entire ERP
"OR NO DEAL". We ended up finally standing our ground and only did customs
integrations and they built an actual IT team instead of using us as their own
IT team.

~~~
simonh
It's not just Foxconn, I have friends in China that work with Chinese tech
companies and they're pretty much all the same. They'll squeeze every last
inch of advantage they can get out of any business deal and push things right
up to, or beyond the brink of a breakdown in relations. It's utterly
cutthroat.

I have family over there as well, my wife is Chinese, but those connections
are up north. She has an uncle who was a mining company executive, I can't
talk about him it's too dangerous. Really.

~~~
joosters
_She has an uncle who was a mining company executive, I can 't talk about him
it's too dangerous. Really._

Then why talk about him?

~~~
selimthegrim
Probably just using the past tense is enough to hint that he is dead or no
longer in that line of work

------
vezycash
The labor law in question is having more temporary workers than the law
allows. I don't see much issue with this because the article highlights the
cause - seasonal fluctuations.

If they overhire, the excess staff would be stuck with nothing to do. And
consider the negative press any time companies announce layoffs.

Excess staff aren't like machines you can just turn off and turn back on
during peak seasons. Can't just create an API and invent AWS with them.

There are some companies that don't fire excess staff during slow periods.
Staff come in half the month for half pay. And then when things pick up, back
to normal. I don't know how they'll handle health benefits though.

~~~
ajmurmann
> I don't know how they'll handle health benefits though.

Are health benefits in China provided by employers? I always understood that
(anti) pattern to be mostly unique to the US, due to salary caps during WWII.

~~~
ailideex
South African expat in Norway here. In South Africa health care is technically
provided by state but if you don't want to die or lose a limb when you go in
for something minor you need private insurance which is normally provided by
employer.

In Norway my employer also providers supplemental insurance that provides
lower wait times.

So no, not unique to US really. What countries have you lived in?

~~~
PeterisP
Many countries have some sort of premium health insurance as a benefit from
the employer, but that's generally a benefit in 'good jobs' that's not
relevant for low-paid factory or call center workers - I mean, if someone's
getting paid the legal minimum wage or close to that, they're also getting the
legal minimum of benefits, not extras.

~~~
C1sc0cat
I had BUPA in the UK at a previous employer - its not actually worth it as you
have to pay tax on the benefit, and if you do have a serious problem you don't
get anything for it.

~~~
oarsinsync
Sounds like you had a low end plan. The BUPA plan my employer provides covers
everything, from GP visits and dental care, to major surgery in private
hospitals (tried and tested this range between myself and various colleagues).

Significantly better than dealing with the NHS these days, as I'm able to get
a GP appointment with a few hours notice, and I've witnessed someone go in
with a slip disk in their back and be in surgery 30 days later (minimum period
of time required to be eligible for surgery to give the disk a chance to slip
back in on its own).

They even give you a menu with a choice of meals during surgical recovery. The
contrast is stark.

Oh, and zero deductible. Everything was free, completely covered. Effectively
getting the policy at a significant discount (by only paying income tax on the
cost of the plan), and corporate policies are significantly better value than
individual policies anyway, as the likelihood of claims (on aggregate across
the entire corporation) are lower.

~~~
C1sc0cat
What does it cost you on your tax coding though, its not free

------
butuzov
Just some of the other violations...

\- During peak production periods, resignations are not approved.

\- Some dispatch workers have not received promised bonuses.

\- Student workers do overtime during peak production season, even though
regulations on student internships prohibit this.

\- Some workers put in at least 100 overtime hours each month, during busy
production periods. Chinese labor law limits monthly overtime to 36 hours.

\- Workers must get approval to not do overtime. If requests are denied and
staff still choose not to work overtime, they are admonished by managers and
miss out on future overtime opportunities.

\- Workers sometimes have to stay at the factory for unpaid meetings at night.

\- The factory doesn’t provide adequate protective equipment for staff.

\- Work injuries are not reported by the factory, and verbal abuse is common
there.

~~~
ajsnigrutin
> \- During peak production periods, resignations are not approved.

How the hell do they enforce this?

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Easy: you have to get a written release from your employer before you start
your new job. They simply withhold that release (HR gets really confused when
hiring from foreign countries that have no such concept).

~~~
agumonkey
This feels like being the property of someone..

~~~
omnifischer
I have had experienced this also in India. We call it No objection certificate
(NOC).

~~~
bonestamp2
Does that mean your old employer has no objections that you work for any new
employer or could they object depending on who the new employer is?

------
jjtheblunt
Bloomberg is so full of bias it's preposterous: Apple themselves detected the
violation in a contracted factory, and reported promptly. But that doesn't
make a clickbaity title.

It would be fascinating to know why Forbes and Bloomberg seem funded to deride
Apple.

~~~
slowmovintarget
Quote from another discussion about a Bloomberg claim:

> Bloomberg, of course, is the publication that published “The Big Hack” last
> October — a sensational story alleging that data centers of Apple, Amazon,
> and dozens of other companies were compromised by China’s intelligence
> services. The story presented no confirmable evidence at all, was vehemently
> denied by all companies involved, has not been confirmed by a single other
> publication (despite much effort to do so), and has been largely discredited
> by one of Bloomberg’s own sources. By all appearances “The Big Hack” was
> complete bullshit. Yet Bloomberg has issued no correction or retraction, and
> seemingly hopes we’ll all just forget about it. I say we do not just forget
> about it. Bloomberg’s institutional credibility is severely damaged, and
> everything they publish should be treated with skepticism until they retract
> the story or provide evidence that it was true.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20914585](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20914585)

------
MichailP
I wonder how rich people even come up with the idea that they are above normal
human beings. The idea feels completely unnatural to me, and I strongly
believe that one would have to be educated into the idea. Something like
school for racists or upbringing for racists. Racist is not the right word but
it is the closest matching the description I can think of.

~~~
konart
>The idea feels completely unnatural to me

The idea of skydiving feels completely unnatural to me.

But like with many other things - this is mostly because I haven't been there
even once.

~~~
doyoulikeworms
What does that even mean?

~~~
Qwertystop
I haven't been skydiving, and I haven't been rich.

------
lota-putty
Pretty much highlighting slavery outsourced. We all hate to fill those
workers' shoes, but love the fruits of their hard labour.

OT: American Factory (2019) documentary was a good watch too.

Edit: Vote with your wallet in capitalism; what goes around comes around to
bite ...

~~~
kinkrtyavimoodh
What's worse is it's not like that the fruits of their hard labor would be
more expensive if they were treated better.

Companies like Apple would just need to cut into their ginormous profit
margins instead of being able to sit on literally (edit: hundreds of) billions
of dollars in cash.

~~~
rsa4046
Relevant to that, there's a good talk by Herman Mark Schwartz [0], in which he
reports that total _offshore_ holdings of top 15 US firms exceeds $1 T (more
than Obama's ARRA stimulus of $830 B). Excludes onshore cash, and Apple's is a
significant fraction of this pile. He argues that monopoly IP rights
(originally public goods) held by cash-rich firms leads to lack of real
investment.

[0] Wealth and Secular Stagnation: The Role of Industrial Organization and
Intellectual Property Rights.
[https://t.co/ZQ5RgHGdFo](https://t.co/ZQ5RgHGdFo)

------
lenkite
Until fines of 10+ billion dollars are enforced on violating companies along
with multi-month jail-time for executives, nothing will change.

The use of dispatch workers doesn't happen by magic. It had to be an explicit
decision by senior executives. It required several executives in Foxconn to
knowingly and deliberately break labour laws and Apple to close their eyes and
look the other way.

------
IlegCowcat
You know it has to be pretty damn bad if they're breaking chinese labor
laws...

------
alexis_fr
Does that mean Apple is building an exceptionally high number of devices for
the Sept 10 keynote, anticipating high demand?

~~~
paul7986
Not sure why these phones are still large phones without Touch ID.

I hear they will releasing a new iPhone SE the size of an iPhone 8 in April
that I'm interested in. Though probably no Touch ID in that which stinks.

Touch ID is a way better UX ..grab phone with thumb and boom phone is open.
One quick/seamless step vs. Face ID...grab phone, look at it and swipe up.
Three steps vs. one ..no thanks Apple! Bad UX ..making the user do more then
before!

~~~
CaptainMarvel
Well, generally, when you grab your phone, you’re going to be looking at it
anyway...

~~~
jkestner
Removes the use case where I activate Siri while driving by reaching in my
pocket.

~~~
paul7986
Exactly Face ID makes things even more dangerous in this use case that
millions and millions do each day yet shouldn't.

------
tkubacki
I know it's not Apple itself but their (biggest ?) supplier, but isn't that
the 'Apple DNA' to don't give a f* for their employees? Anyone here with
experience working in multiple big tech companies (including Apple) to compare
?

------
doe88
Strangely I think this is the rare case where public's goal is more aligned
with Apple's goal than one might think: _no more labour violations, no more
headlines_. But... be careful what you wish for. Robots. When all iPhones are
assembled by robots there will not be any labour violations anymore. But
exactly what problem will we have solved in the end?

~~~
moksly
You should be careful about how you distribute the benefits of you automation,
not the automation itself.

I know America is really bad at redistributing wealth, but society doesn’t
actually have to be that way.

~~~
merpnderp
Inequality is measured by the Gini coefficient, and the US isn’t that bad.

~~~
birdyrooster
Not as bad as what? For which other countries is wealth inequality more
important to Americans than the US? It sounds like you think the priority for
solving wealth inequality should be elsewhere. Where?

------
powerapple
I have to say that let the market play out the rules. When people don't want
to work overtime, they can leave the job to those who need to work overtime,
and once those people who need to work overtime finally at a stage that he
doesn't need to work overtime, the job will either increase its standard or go
to another place where people need these jobs.

~~~
ClumsyPilot
We should have let the market sold out child labour too. Why have laws at all?

~~~
powerapple
Actually, I think so. poverty is a problem should be solved, not child labour.
If there is a place where children has to work, children has to work. They
will need money to survive, or have something for their future generation. And
yes, their lives are f __ked, not because there is not law for that, it is
because of poverty. If all standards are the same across the globe, does
developing world stand any chance of stealing those unwanted jobs and make
their life better?

Many young people in China don't want to work overtime, and many do not work
in factories, and many demand higher salary, that's how jobs are shifting to
Vietnam, Africa and so on. Things will just work out.

