
US plans to produce ‘Iberian’ ham in Texas and Georgia - vijayr02
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/15/fury-in-spain-at-us-plans-to-produce-iberian-ham-in-texas-and-georgia
======
JorgeGT
If there's fury in Spain, certainly I'm not aware, first time hearing about
this. I doubt they can get it right, even here in Spain most jamón sold is not
ibérico de bellota but just ibérico, or not even that. You have the
classification here:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jam%C3%B3n_ib%C3%A9rico#Commer...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jam%C3%B3n_ib%C3%A9rico#Commercial_grading_and_labeling)

The difference with the real thing (black label) is night and day. This will
possible be a passable "jamón ibérico" like the one you can buy here in the
supermarket, this is, the pigs are from the ibérico race but they are not fed
the traditional way. It's not bad but trust me, at least once get yourself a
true black-label "100% ibérico de bellota", if it can be imported into the US.

~~~
hourislate
All I would say is that Texas raises some of the best beef in the world (Grass
Fed Organic Beef Cattle). They also have a world renown Agricultural
University (Texas A&M). There is plenty of experience in Animal husbandry and
no shortage of resources including Acorns, there are probably millions of Oaks
throughout Texas.

If they choose to they will be able to make black-label as good as any.

~~~
sixQuarks
What do you mean by “best”? I’ve never tasted Texas beef that even comes close
to the flavor of Argentinian or Brazilian beef.

~~~
hourislate
>I’ve never tasted Texas beef that even comes close to the flavor of
Argentinian or Brazilian beef.

That's too bad. Where are you shopping?

An example of 1 of 1000's of small ranches scattered through out the state.

Even the Grocery stores carry local grass fed beef that is incredibly
affordable and absolutely delicious.

[https://zbarcattle.com/](https://zbarcattle.com/)

The breed of cattle

[https://zbarcattle.com/pages/our-cattle](https://zbarcattle.com/pages/our-
cattle)

~~~
sixQuarks
OK, I wanna try the best Texas beef, maybe I haven't tried good ones.

I tried to order their prime ribeye, but it's sold out. Can you recommend some
other places where I can purchase and get it shipped?

------
quijoteuniv
All “Jamón ibérico” should be sold trough an authorised spanish website owned
by the Jamon consortium and they should keep 15 to 30 % of all sales. It has
been done before with fruit.

~~~
xattt
The Consortium will reiterate their approach to privacy, ensuring that no
federal agencies can access your ham records.

~~~
quijoteuniv
What about “Eat different” as an ad campaign?

------
gerardnll
It’s always the same. Information and packaging. If you don’t know which
labels and exactly which denominations to look for you may be eating something
that’s not exactly what you expect. And that’s sad because it affects the
reputation of great products with a long history and dedication. But that
happens also even in the country of origin. There are various types of Ham in
Spain, some people have only tried the ‘worst’ (compared to the best) and
don’t know which is the denomination of the best (100% iberian, black tag).
Maybe you’ve tasted the lowest category one and you don’t like it but you can
love the higher-end ones, the difference is quite big. Also, there’s olive oil
sold as Italian, that comes from Spain. But it seems like Italians are the
only ones that produce it. There are articles about edulterated parmesan being
sold in USA where they even found wood, there’s a whole mafia about that. All
that while there’s great products being made by centuries old farms and hard
working farmers. It’s OK if the US wants to produce ham but they should make
it clear it’s not the same and avoid confusion.

PS: I think ‘5 jotas’ is the most international brand of iberian products, try
their ham or other iberian derived products, they are one of the best
available.

~~~
llsf
Yes, if some US famers want to do some Iberico-style ham, they should be able
to, but they cannot call it Iberico. They should build their brand, and not
confuse consumers with a geographically based label that is clearly not
accurate. They should compete on their own merit and quality, and not rely on
a brand that took centuries to build. I would be fine if they label it as
"Iberico-style ham" or "prepared the Iberico way", just not call it Iberico.
Actually, if they plan to deviate from the original recipe (i.e. using
different nuts) because they think it is better then Iberico, then they should
differentiate themselves from Iberico. Unless using different nuts is a way to
cut cost, and they still want to label it Iberico ?

------
iagovar
Anyone can do a passable jamón. Try an authentic 5J and you will understand
the worship.

~~~
throwaway_pdp09
Sometimes being vegetarian is hard :) I do miss ham.

~~~
pa7x1
If you are vegetarian due to moral concerns you may consider whitelisting
jamon iberico de bellota. They live much better than we do.

The production of jamon iberico de bellota is strictly regulated, among other
things each pig has to have at least 12500 m^2 of their natural habitat
(dehesa) to roam freely and eat from the oak trees. That's what gives the meat
the intense taste and infiltrated fat, the pigs grow freely roaming vast areas
of their natural habitat and eat what they love most.

~~~
throwaway_pdp09
I'm not so much against killing animals than about letting a pig have a decent
pig's life[0] and not allowing it to suffer when it's killed. It is a slippery
slope though, and there are other ethical considerations such as the great
inefficiency of producing animals for food when so many elsewhere can't get
enough to eat. So perhaps and perhaps not. I guess for the latter reason I'll
have to say no, but thanks for a constructive and helpful answer.

[0] Other animals and their lifestyles are available..

~~~
greatpatton
They are great inefficiencies for industrially produced meat, but all cow or
pig that are let free to feed are more efficient as most of the land they are
feeding on cannot be used to grow something useful.

------
AlbertoGP
“Spanish businessmen suspect that the Chinese Government might have copied
their «jamón» production methods during an inspection made in 2008 by a group
of oriental technicians in some of their factories. The objective of that
visit was to check the manufacturing conditions of that product to authorize
its export to the asian country. But at the beginning of 2010, the first
Chinese hams arrived in the market.” [https://www.abc.es/tecnologia/abci-
jamon-china-201111280000_...](https://www.abc.es/tecnologia/abci-jamon-
china-201111280000_noticia.html)

In the USA they typically do something different: put the name in whatever
product that barely resembles the original, like they did with their
“manchego” cheese, a label put in all kinds of cheese-like products.

As for the Chinese ham, their propaganda reached even German TV where a
supposed documentary (Galileo) claimed that Spanish «jamón» was brought from
China by Marco Polo. Never mind that the Romans already knew it and there was
a 2000 y.o. ham found in Conesa, Catalonia: [https://www.incarlopsa.es/mundo-
jamon/historia-jamon](https://www.incarlopsa.es/mundo-jamon/historia-jamon)

I’m sure they can produce excellent meat products in Texas; they just
shouldn’t call it “ibérico” as it isn’t, just call it “texan ham” or even
“jamón tejano” which actually sounds quite good!

~~~
chmod775
>In the USA they typically do something different: put the name in whatever
product that barely resembles the original, like they did with their
“manchego” cheese, a label put in all kinds of cheese-like products.

For many cheeses they don't have much off a choice. Since (young) raw milk
cheeses can't be sold in the states they try to get as close as they can, but
usually only succeed in looks, rarely in taste.

~~~
masklinn
Except manchego is an aged cheese so that wouldn't be an issue there. Not only
that, but manchego can be made from pasteurised milk.

------
jurassic
I recently had some authentic jamon iberico de bellota from Formaggio Kitchen
in Cambridge, MA. Definitely worth trying if you enjoy meat.

------
anthk
Well, I woudn't call a true Texan BBQ one made from a MCDonalds's or Burger
King franchise in Spain. Or by a local Castillian farm passing the meat as a
Texan one, even if both have a similar meat culture historically because of
the Castillian influence in the Southern US.

If I was a Texan I would understand it.

This the same case with the Iberian Ham.

------
ryanmarsh
If you haven’t had Jamón ibérico, get ready to have your mind blown.

------
peterwwillis
It's already nearly impossible to find jamón ibérico, much less de bellota, in
even the expensive U.S. grocery stores. This will hurt Spanish sales much more
in the developing markets where it's more in demand. America will just keep
eating its crappy knockoff products like it always has, and you'll still be
able to special order the real thing for a small fortune.

------
flowerlad
Reminds me of this story, where "Basmati" rice, sold with pictures of Taj
Mahal on the packaging, is actually grown in Texas. "Basmati" is an Indian
name for a variety of rice.

[https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB891803406922118000](https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB891803406922118000)

------
wayanon
That Guardian article helped me understand why I’ve heard Americans say
‘French Champagne’ - I thought it could only be called Champagne when from
that region but apparently not in the US.

~~~
londons_explore
I'm all for monopolies on tradenarks (eg. Mars bar), but geographic monopolies
seem stupid.

If you name your product Champagne, in my mind it's totally fine for someone
to start making Californian champagne.

~~~
riffraff
the problem (EDIT: usually) is that they do not market it as "californian
champagne", just "champagne", i.e. they mislead the consumer into thinking
they are buying something when they are buying something else.

~~~
doktorhladnjak
The California producers do have to label it as "California champagne" by law.
And only those already producing "champagne" before the treaty can use the
label.

------
rafa1981
If Texas has acorn, grass and a low humidity climate year around where the
hams can be dried in optimal conditions, I can't see why they wouldn't
succeed.

This is just about salting the right ham type and letting it dry at the right
conditions. Not exactly rocket science.

------
vmception
Yeahhh I care enough about this to tell you all that I don't care about this

The article was pretty spot on:

> However, the US has tended to be cavalier about such things.

My real thoughts are that many European cuisine customs are arbitrary and
ignorable. Okay, a tradition of end of life pigs eating acorns and drying
their meats for 36 months, and then _later_ you found out that there was a
certain omega fat created from this process? Yeah, get outta here. To me, this
is right up there with Sardinia poisonous maggot cheese.

There is also a possibility that people might like this offbrand version more,
taste wise. We are about to fortune cookie Spanish cuisine. (Fortune cookies
origins have competing claims from multiple Americans, Japan and China in the
same time period and at this point it doesn't matter. Its an American-Chinese-
American novelty, yay globalization!)

------
throwawayhacka
havent there already been countryhams raised on acorns in the usa? why so much
clamor about the spanish ones? if I recall, people have been doing this on the
east coast since the colonial era

------
andreareina
Every Tom, Dick, and Harry can already be selling "jamón ibérico" because the
USA does not in general recognize protected origins (viz. the sawdust that
gets sold as "parmesan" over there)---there's no integrity to protect. In
places that recognize protected origin using the same pigs wouldn't allow you
to sell under the name jamón ibérico anyway. So blame the feckless governments
that think names should only be protected when it suits them.

Trademarks on food are fine. Trying to copyright an _animal_ is... I really
don't have the words.

~~~
throwaway_pdp09
> Trying to copyright an animal is...

They're not.

From the article "must come from Iberian blackfoot pigs that spend the last
months of their lives eating acorns on the dehesa, a traditional Spanish or
Portuguese pasture shaded by mature oak trees"

It's all of those conditions required. I'm not making any judgements, just
pointing out.

~~~
andreareina
> He is furious with the failure of the Spanish government to protect jamón’s
> integrity and allow native blackfoot pigs to be exported to the United
> States.

> Martínez rejects the argument that, as a variety, the blackfoot pig can’t be
> protected by a denomination the way champagne and parmesan cheese are,
> pointing out that the Japanese wagyu enjoys just this sort of protection.

They are trying to set limits on where the pig is allowed to be brought. Not
"the pigs must be from so-and-so region to be Iberian blackfoot pigs", but
"Iberian blackfoot pigs must not be allowed to be exported [from Iberia I
suppose?]". I'd say that copyright and software licenses are an apt metaphor
for what they're trying to do.

~~~
odshoifsdhfs
But then again, they (spanish) have no problem buying around 90% of the
portuguese production of purebred black iberian pigs, undercutting local
producers and then calling it their own.

I couldn't find figures, but remember from talks from producers that around
30-40% of Spanish Iberian Ham is actually from portuguese pigs raised in
alentejo (the 90% figure above can be found in export reports, the 30-40% is
hearsay from talking and negotiating with the producers a few years ago)

~~~
AlbertoGP
I’m Spanish and didn’t know this. Thanks for mentioning it.

~~~
odshoifsdhfs
Hey, no problem. I might even be wrong in those values, but were the ones I
found.

4-5 years ago I was working with a lot of breeders here, and they all
complained that the 'low' development work was done by them, but the 'high'
product as the smoked/dried hams were from spanish producers.

Portugal always had this issue where we can 'produce' the lower chain stuff,
but getting into the higher chain marketplace has been an issue. It is a shame
really.

But having said that, I lived in the south of Spain (andalucia) for a while,
and I love you guys. Even if you pretend you don't understand us :P, it was
some of the most fun and happy times I had.

------
JumpCrisscross
What prevents someone from registering these controlled origins as a trademark
in the U.S.?

~~~
danans
Treaties, I think

[https://www.inta.org/fact-sheets/international-trademark-
rig...](https://www.inta.org/fact-sheets/international-trademark-rights/)

But also lawsuits.

For example, some years ago the Indian government sued and won a case against
a Texas company (owned by the Prince of Liechtenstein) that got a patent on
Basmati rice:

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/RiceTec](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/RiceTec)

After the patent was revoked, they renamed it "Texmati". Maybe we'll see a
"Texjamon" in the future.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
What prevents the controlled origin authority from registering a trademark?
Why can't the Spanish government or the relevant consortium trademark _jamón
ibérico_?

~~~
danans
No reason they can't. After all Champagne is protected in that way. Perhaps
they just ... didn't?

------
29athrowaway
Unless it's produced in the Iberian peninsula, Jamon Iberico is just Sparkling
ham.

------
mrfusion
So Spain can sell Kentucky bourbon to retaliate.

------
fermienrico
I think protectionism of food culture / products needs to be eradicated.

I don't see why we can't make Pizza Nappoletana in Delhi, Camembert Cheese in
Valdosta, Wagyu cows in Cape Town without pissing off people who have even
passed laws to prevent others from copying the style.

Like there was a restaurant owner that trademarked "Taco Tuesday" and tried to
sue the US Navy for their misuse in Aircraft carrier canteens. That didn't go
well.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _protectionism of food culture / products needs to be eradicated_

This is extreme. I’m fine with the present state. The EU regulates, and that’s
fine. The U.S. doesn’t, and that’s fine too. Best of both worlds.

~~~
fermienrico
US has a lot of regulations too - the draconian Patent law needs to be
abolished all together. Extreme? Yes.

------
patrickaljord
A bit ironic to see Spaniards afraid their natural resource are stolen from
them and be made available on the South American market. I mean, it's not like
they did the same with Avocado, tomato and so on and so forth. Not to mention
all the gold from South America.

That being said, today's Spanish farmers are not responsible for their
ancestors deeds. However, true "Pata Negra" ham is actually so expensive, I
don't think people who used to buy the real thing will buy the cheap American
alternative instead as it doesn't have the Omega-9, taste and status. Only
people who randomly bought super expensive Pata Negra and now decide to get
the cheap alternative could affect their revenue, no idea how much this would
make up.

~~~
luckydata
Your comparison has nothing to do with the subject at hand. The problem is a
country allowing the counterfeit production of an inferior product that will
both impact sales and undermine the brand, very much like shitty “Parmesan”
does to Italian Parmigiano. Ironically the USA has a hard on for intellectual
property protection but seems to be very casual about this type of IP crime.

~~~
otterley
I don't know if I'd call it "IP crime": (1) copyright protection does not
apply to methods of food production; (2) the methods existed long before
patents were invented; and (3) the American producers don't intend to use the
term "jamon iberico de bellota" so there's no trademark violation (to the
extent trademark protection might even apply here).

I know what you mean though; there's still something skeezy about it because
it exploits consumer confusion. Hooray American capitalism.

