
Alt-right attacks Macron in last ditch effort to sway French Election - doener
https://medium.com/@DFRLab/hashtag-campaign-macronleaks-4a3fb870c4e8
======
candiodari
It baffles me that the right actually has to convince leftists not to vote for
Macron, never mind the means used.

Macron is a Rotschild banker, personally responsible for anti-employee law
changes [1]. He advanced as an international investment banker in a very
suspicious, rocket trajectory straight to the top ... while making deals with
government-owned banks [2][3].

Now I'm not saying he HAS to be dirty ... but ... euhm ... yeah actually I am.
Unless someone can explain to me how to career like that fairly.

[1] [https://blogs.wsj.com/briefly/2015/03/09/5-things-about-
the-...](https://blogs.wsj.com/briefly/2015/03/09/5-things-about-the-macron-
law-2/)

[2]
[https://www.ft.com/content/9bd62502-12cf-11e7-b0c1-37e417ee6...](https://www.ft.com/content/9bd62502-12cf-11e7-b0c1-37e417ee6c76)

[3] (they de-emphasize this, so let me quote from the FT article: "On the Atos
deal, Mr Macron “had a fairly junior role at the time — he would be asked to
redo the financial models on Excel, the basics,” recalled an adviser. But a
few days after the deal was announced, Mr Macron was made a partner. A few
months later, he stunned colleagues and rivals by winning a role in Nestlé’s
purchase of Pfizer’s infant food operations.")

------
briandear
I don't understand why Le Pen is being called "right" or "ultra right." Even a
cursory review of her policy proposals -- specifically economic policy shows
her closer to Melanchon than the free market "right" orientation of Fillon's
proposals.

She's national socialist more than anything -- ultra right socially, ultra
left economically. I consider myself "on the right" \-- but Le Pen is the
worst of both worlds; the totalitarian racist zeal of Hitler with the
industrial protectionism fervor of the worst socialist. By the way, when I say
socialist, I don't mean the Democratic Socialism common in Europe -- I am
referring to the statist socialism of the Soviet era.

~~~
bru
Like national socialism, you cannot label it "left", for it's mostly
appearances and ways to get votes than real convictions and engagement.

~~~
oelmekki
Exactly. By the way, national socialism is exactly what lepen is doing :
backing defense of the weak ones on nationalist views. I've had many
discussions with people lately who were arguing that yes, it's nationalism,
but it's also leading the social fight (I'm french). Each time, they were mind
blown when I replied : "Yep, and that's called national-socialism". For some
reason, they don't see the similarities by themselves. I guess we failed to
explain clearly what nazism was, and now people think it's only about racism
and don't detect it when it raises again.

------
DiNovi
This thread is a good reminder that dangerous thinking has infected a not
small group of younger computer engineers. Quite frightening.

~~~
simias
Many new accounts, there appears to be some brigading going on. I'm surprised
actually, I doubt brigading hacker news is going to have a lot of weight in
the outcome of the french election...

Staying away from the political side of things, it's impressive how many
people are willing to spread obvious disinfo if it serves their agenda. I'm
sure many of these alt-righters realize that those documents are most likely
fakes but it doesn't matter, whatever hurts the opposing party.

Look at the Cayman document leak from yesterday, one of the laziest montages
I've seen lately. Didn't stop it from being plastered everywhere on "alt-
right" websites with big VERIFIED tags.

It's just the strategy of drowning actual information in a sea of lies so that
nobody bothers to look for it. The worst thing is that an actual leak about
Macron's tax evasion could be released now and I probably wouldn't believe it.
It's just all noise.

~~~
oelmekki
> I'm surprised actually, I doubt brigading hacker news is going to have a lot
> of weight in the outcome of the french election...

It's about all they have left :)

There's a law in France saying that media can't discuss campaign anymore two
days from election, the idea being that debate time is over and it's now time
for each citizen to take a step back from the heat of the campaign and calmly
decide what they think is the best for the country (this is obviously
something that doesn't work as well now we have internet). So far right
activists only have foreign discussion threads as a mean to spread.

------
empath75
I hope the French don't fall for this like we did.

~~~
camus2
The campaign is over so the leak will have no influence on the results. Macron
has mathematically won already. But if he fails during his presidency, the far
right will ultimately get the job. The truth is Macron is the candidate of the
status quo, his party likely won't have the majority in the french house so he
will have to compromise with both the "socialists" and the conservatives, he
won't achieve much for 5 years.

~~~
illumin8
Isn't that the intention of these far-right wackos? The "official" campaign is
over, so they can attempt to influence the results without worrying about the
Macron campaign being able to deny the rumors?

Twitter needs to decisively put a stop to these bot armies. It can't be that
difficult to detect them through ML. The bot armies are not only responsible
for propagating outright lies, they also frequently target people for online
harassment. I've heard from many people that were almost unable to use Twitter
due to information/message overload once they were targeted. Twitter seems to
not only allow the harassment, but requires users to wade through the post
spam. I would imagine at some point the usefulness of having a Twitter account
approaches zero for many of these people that have been targeted.

~~~
omginternets
>It can't be that difficult to detect them through ML.

Show us the code.

>far-right wackos

It's also a mistake to put Le Pen in the same box as the likes of Trump. For
one, she's a highly educated, and secondly, the far right in France has a
rather long history of being the only party to say _anything_ substantive on
the topic of immigration and security. (It's worth noting that the immigration
situation in France is very different from the US). I'm not a huge fan of Le
Pen, but dismissing her as a "wacko" is exactly why she has maintained a
growing electorate; each time media in France has tried to label her as a
nutcase, they've essentially refused to address the very real concerns that
motivate her electorate.

~~~
digi_owl
> the far right in France has a rather long history of being the only party to
> say anything substantive on the topic of immigration and security.

That is the sad part about European politics. The (champagne) Left is so
enamored by the notion of EU as a peace project, that they can't see that they
are undermining their very voting base (the working class) in the process.

This has left the doors wide open for the far Right to wrap their xenophobia
in terminology that claims they worry about workers rights and livelihood,
when they really want to see every last "foreigner" (anyone with enough skin
color or other feature that makes him stand out from across the street) tossed
over the border (at best).

~~~
omginternets
>they really want to see every last "foreigner" (anyone with enough skin color
or other feature that makes him stand out from across the street) tossed over
the border (at best).

Frankly I was with you up until this point. I think this attitude is
essentially the same as the one you're condemning, albeit on the topic of
immigration rather than the EU project.

To use your turn of phrase, the (champagne) Left is so enamored by the notion
of the "friendly foreigner" and "global society" that they can't see that they
are undermining their very voting base in the process. More specifically, said
Left is unable to engage in a serious discussion about border security and
immigration without accusing everybody of racism.

This has left the doors wide open for the far Right to monopolize the
conversation on immigration. The net effect is that anyone who cares about
security and identity politics has only one party to turn to.

I mean no disrespect, but this attitude is a large part of what got us here.
Wanting to reduce immigration and harden border security is not equivalent to
xenophobia.

------
komerdoor
Alt-right? How did a term made up on 4chan get so popular and taken seriously
(/pol where I saw this term used for the first time). It really has no meaning
at all only to find a opposite alternative to (the also misused term)
regressive-left. Before last year people did not even identify as such. People
that now do identify as such do not even seem legit and behave like actors
(the same feeling I have with people like Alex Jones).

Now even people I would call moderate / left-leaning are now called alt-right
(a term they do not use for themselves).

~~~
DiNovi
IMO younger 4channers (18-23 set) that I have met in person strongly identify
this way.

It's odd cause 10 years ago 4chan trolled in the exact different direction.
Would love to read a book about political reckonings that come from this tiny
dark corner of the net.

~~~
komerdoor
But as far as I now the timeline is as follows (cannot find the 4chan threads
anymore, so no proof this time):

\- Aug/Sep 2016 (or a short while before that): People made up thr term "alt-
right" to be used as the opposite of "regressive-left". People there did not
call themselves that.

\- Oct 2016: 4chan was mostly busy with all the Wikileaks stuff and I did not
see the term used that much.

\- Oct (end)/Nov 2016: Some people (not even on 4chan started to call many
things that are pro-Trump or "tried to be" objective (non Trump or Hillary)
alt-right.

The general message that started to come up at that time: "The alt-right are
spreading fake news".

\- Dec 2016/Jan 2017: People suddenly started to identify themselves with alt-
right.

Update:

Google trends timeline:
[https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%2012-m&q...](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%2012-m&q=alt%20right)

~~~
DiNovi
alt right is from waaaaaay longer ago than September. It's all an out growth
of "gamer gate" nonsense. Milo and Cernovich were both "gamer gaters." Bannon
ran gaming message boards before Breitbart, where he met Milo. He figured out
how to use messaging like his to target these people for less savory purposes.

~~~
komerdoor
I know the whole movement that got Trump elected started from this but at that
time it was as far as I know not called alt-right (because I remember the
thread on 4chan were they actually made it up).

Yes, the division between groups (pro/anti) created while gamergate was going
on were about the same. On one side people calling for social justice on the
other side the people that in a way are against social justice + the ones that
did not want to choose a side.

At the beginning gamergate was just about ethics in journalism (mostly in
gaming).

~~~
DiNovi
Gamergate was never about ethics in journalism(games reviews being journalism
is a whole other thing, but, cmon). It was about being mad because you were
undersexed and lonely, and someone offering you a way to channel that
desperation into misogyny and a false feeling of control* and community*.

~~~
komerdoor
Yes I agree. It did not take long before it started getting into a fight not
being about game journalism anymore but about more diversity in games,
misogyny, racism etc.

------
oelmekki
As a side note, I'm always surprised when I see the word "alt-right". When did
that happen? I still use the word "fascists", although I understand it can be
too strong a word for many, but those can use "far right".

~~~
pasiaj
Because alt-right carries carries more information and is more accurate.

Even though "alt-right" is less precisely defined, it is in many cases more
accurate a term than "facist" or "far right".

To me, alt-right is a combination of anti-establishment Republicans, fascists,
libertarians, internet trolls (& governmental operatives trying to influence
foreign elections).

To me the grassroots part of alt-right is more a reaction than ideology;
something born out of the financial crisis and its' aftermath.

If you want to view them purely as fascists, that's your prerogative, but
using THAT word would be less accurate and would lose a lot of nuance.

~~~
oelmekki
> To me the grassroots part of alt-right is more a reaction than ideology;
> something born out of the financial crisis and its' aftermath.

Indeed, there seems to be something of historical importance, here.

Although, I think there _is_ something that acts as an ideological bound
rather than being just a group of "anti" people. In France, there's
historically always been two right wings, even without considering the far
right : the liberals (mainly interested about economics and free market) and
the conservatives (mainly interested about authority).

Could it be a distinction that exists all over the world, the liberals were
dominant and they're losing ground? By the way, we call here the authority
focused ones "bonapartists" (this is not seen as pejorative or insulting,
although slightly disturbing).

------
mafribe
TLDR:

\- Post goes out of its way _not_ to deny authenticity of the leak.

\- Post can be traced to the Atlantic Council [1].

[1] The Atlantic Council (AC) is a core ingredient for US soft power [2]
projection on other countries. Example members of AC leadership: Chuck Hagel,
Susan Rice, Richard Holbrooke, General Eric K. Shinseki, Anne-Marie Slaughter,
General Brent Scowcroft, Jon Huntsman. Cf
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Council](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Council)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_power)

~~~
DiNovi
one thing Wikileaks does is give credibility to their leaks basically by
putting their stamp on it that it's all authentic. This dump happened quickly
and with no organization oversight - impossible for now to know which is real
and which is fake. I was told 4chan put in some obviously fake bank documents,
but that the emails seem real. It's something that willl play out for months
now.

~~~
mafribe
Agreed. Wikileaks has a sterling record regarding the authenticity of their
own leaks.

Given that the Atlantic Council is for all practical purposes an arm of the US
government, and it's "Digital Forensic Research Lab" is extremely well-funded
and well-connected, it is noteworthy that they go out of their way not to deny
the authenticity on the leak.

------
mhneu
This is a tech news article about hacking.

This is a core topic of Hacker News.

It must be unflagged.

@dang

------
superiorrobot7
Just like the silent majority spoke and elected Trump, the same will happen to
Le Pen. Also, I highly doubt it was the alt-right doing 'hacking', it's more
plausible for it to be a determined patriot trying to stop corruption. My
2cents.

~~~
DiNovi
Trump lost by 3 million votes. I do not think the term silent majority if
accurate.

------
roguemanunite
Of course, more mainstream media BS. When someone hacks one of their precious
"candidates" who loves "freedom", "liberty", and "rights" it's ALWAYS Russia
or they frame Assange as a Russian spy. My god I hope the world governments
burn. This trash system can't persist anymore.

~~~
pavlov
The thing that I don't understand about this "mainstream media BS" critique is
this:

You say that the media is biased in its reporting, beholden to special
interests, and doesn't abide by journalistic standards. Given that, the
reasonable solution would be to create a media outlet that makes a conscious
effort to be less biased, more open about its ties to any industry or other
backer, and more stringent about its journalism.

When I go to Breitbart (or any other alt-right news site), I don't see any of
that. I see a new breed of media outlets that are even more blatantly biased,
even more covert about who's paying them, with no semblance of journalistic
integrity.

It's like the alt-right looks at a problem and says: "They are doing X, and we
oppose that. We must start outdoing them in X!"

By the way, that approach is typical of organizations that strive
simultaneously for both ideological purity and brutal pragmatism. The
Bolsheviks did essentially the same. "We hate the Czar's secret police. [One
year later...] We need a stronger secret police than anyone else." (Maybe the
overlap in methods is no coincidence. Steve Bannon reportedly said he is a
Leninist who wants to destroy the state.)

~~~
jamesrcole
> _You say that the media is biased in its reporting, beholden to special
> interests, and doesn 't abide by journalistic standards. Given that, the
> reasonable solution would be to create a media outlet that makes a conscious
> effort to be less biased, more open about its ties to any industry or other
> backer, and more stringent about its journalism._

Not the person you're replying to, and aside from the issue of alt-right news
sites (which I know is the main thing you're talking about), lets not forget
that (aside from government-run media) the media is a business, and has to do
things that are financially viable. They can't just do whatever they'd ideally
like to do.

------
mariusmg
Let's hope the french are smarter than the americans. But anyway what's the
deal with this in the mainstream french media ? Are they reporting this stuff
? Making a fuss over it ?

~~~
briandear
They aren't allowed to: it was released too close to the media blackout
deadline.

~~~
tgb
Does this affect say, French social media sites?

~~~
simias
No, only TV and radio. Internet and newspaper can say what they want. A lot of
misunderstanding (or downright lies) about french laws and politics in this
thread, take everything with a grain of salt.

------
chvid
Well - it is a global fight against the globalists :-P

I don't have any opinions on French politics other than it is an entertaining
spectacle to watch. And I think it is already given that Macron wins as le Pen
is still to harsh to swallow.

Here is what's going on over at the "donald":

[https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/69ikwt/whoa_guy...](https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/69ikwt/whoa_guys_were_truly_living_in_a_censored_world/)

I don't know if it is true; but if it is then it is kind of amazing just how
fast services we all take for granted can be censored (github and internet
archives).

~~~
Zapperino
If it's from the_donald, it's most likely NOT true.

~~~
koolba
Oh really? How about when the CEO of Reddit (/u/spez) was personally editing
people's comments?

EDIT: Here's what I'm referring to:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/5frg1n/tifu_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/5frg1n/tifu_by_editing_some_comments_and_creating_an/)

~~~
raverbashing
That was cheap for the cesspool T_D is

It's a private website and it's their prerrogative to do that

~~~
koolba
The point is that they're not always crazy and they've also uncovered quite a
bit of actual conspiracy. Both in the ninjas edits by spec and the reddit
scoring manipulation to suppress that subreddit.

Yes it's a private website and both are within their rights, but you can't
claim to be promoting free speech and expression and then edit the speech of
others or rig the system so it doesn't appear in front of others per the rules
of the game. The worst part of it is doing it without any indication that an
edit was made.

~~~
raverbashing
"Free speech" has limits, completely unimpeded "free speech" gets drowned by
hate and noise (see: voat)

(In the same way a completely free market is anything but)

