
WebKit Goals for 2020 - tompic823
https://trac.webkit.org/wiki/WebKitGoalsfor2020
======
SiVal
Apple apparently hates the name "progressive web apps", so how about: "offline
web apps" or "installable web apps" or just "unrestricted web apps"? I'd like
those names more, too. Regardless of the name, where is WebKit's commitment to
joining Google, Mozilla, Microsoft, and countless web developers in making web
apps first-class apps on iOS?

Apple keeps silently "considering" and "accidentally" messing up various
aspects of web app support, while strictly prohibiting browsers that work
well. By prohibiting high-quality browsers, Apple pushes developers toward
Apple-proprietary "native" technologies--those that are both allowed to be the
only things that work well on Apple devices and are NOT allowed to work
anywhere else.

Two WebKit goals I'd like to see for 2020: (1) Allow non-WebKit browsers on
iOS (start outperforming your competition instead of merely banning your
competition), and (2) Make iOS the best platform for powerful web apps instead
of the worst, the leader instead of the spoiler.

~~~
millstone
What is this hope for healthy browser engine competition? On Android and
ChromeOS, Chrome and Chromium-based browsers have more than 99% marketshare.

"Apple should allow non-WebKit browsers" is really saying "what's holding back
the mobile web is that Google does not completely dominate it." Only one thing
prevents that outcome today.

~~~
lern_too_spel
That's a novel argument against allowing competing browsers. Let's apply a
basic check on its validity. Do you think Mozilla agrees with it?

I think you'll find the answer is "no." Not allowing competing browsers does
not help the web ecosystem or the users. It helps only Apple.

~~~
millstone
Yes I think Mozilla would agree with both the marketshare figures, and that
iOS is the only effective check on Google's mobile web dominance.

How has allowing competing browser engines on Android helped the web
ecosystem? Non-Chromium browsers are a rounding error on Android.

~~~
lern_too_spel
> How has allowing competing browser engines on Android helped the web
> ecosystem?

By allowing people to install Firefox. Would you rather that Android be
Chrome-only? Neither, I suspect, would Mozilla. The same applies to iOS, with
its backwards browser holding back the web. Your argument would justify
Microsoft making IE 6 the only allowed browser on Windows. Do you really not
see how ridiculous that is?

------
rwmj
We use WebKitGtk[1] (embedded WebKit) in our presentation software Tech Talk
PSE[2]. It would be great if SVG rendering, used for diagrams, was of equal
quality to Firefox, but unfortunately Firefox seems to render SVG in a far
superior way so we usually have to convert to PNG files to make diagrams embed
correctly.

[1] [https://webkitgtk.org/](https://webkitgtk.org/)

[2] [https://rwmj.wordpress.com/2012/01/31/tech-talk-
pse-1-1-0/](https://rwmj.wordpress.com/2012/01/31/tech-talk-pse-1-1-0/)

~~~
jwilk
What software do you use for SVG→PNG conversion?

------
mkurz
Please finally implement the date and time input times!
[https://caniuse.com/#feat=input-datetime](https://caniuse.com/#feat=input-
datetime)

~~~
paulddraper
The fact that <input type="date"> still isn't a thing proves to me that
semantic HTML, non-bloated JS bundles, etc. just will never happen.

~~~
dbbk
It is a thing, just not in Safari

------
cordite
I'm glad that battery life is a top priority.

Though WebP would still be nice to have..

~~~
pornel
Apple already has HEIC codec on their systems, which is half the size of WebP.

I'm curious why they're not exposing it to the Web. Is it because the codec is
a ball of risky C++ code? Patent issues? Or because it's non-standard, and for
once, they don't want to add a non-standard feature?

There's also JPEG XL being standardized now, which gives similar compression
while also supporting _lossless_ conversion from the classic JPEG. This offers
nicer migration path. With other formats conversion from JPEG is lossy, so you
get smaller files partly because you lose quality in the process.

~~~
ksec
> Patent issues?

As far as I am aware HEVC issues is still not fully resolved. And likely unfit
for Web usage.

------
newscracker
Will 2020 be the year when WebKit, and the Safari browsers by extension, will
have full and proper support for Service Workers and PWAs on par with other
browsers? I recall reading that Safari lags behind on it, and the allegation
was that Apple prefers native apps and doesn’t want web apps to be more
popular.

~~~
tannhaeuser
Hopefully not. I'd hate to click through "This site wants to push new ads to
you. Allow notifications?" modals on my shiny new iPhone (edit: in addition to
content being constrained to poststamp-sized areas between GDPR banners).

~~~
lwansbrough
You should understand the argument before you form an opinion on it. First of
all, there are plenty of us who have legitimate use cases for web push.
Second, if you care about being bothered by shitty sites prompting you
unprovoked, you have a couple options: content blockers or use different
sites.

The need for notifications is real and Apple’s choice to exclude their
availability in iOS is a business move not a technical move or a users-first
move. Making PWAs better on iOS runs counter to Apple’s walled garden business
model.

~~~
tannhaeuser
> _There are plenty of us who have legitimate use cases for web push_

Such as? The _only_ use case for notifications and PWAs I'm coming across are
clickbait news sites creating a sense of urgency with "homepage was updated"
modals obscuring content and capturing click events. Web user agents have
freedoms in rendering pages to users, and Safari siding with users and power
efficiency is a good thing. In line with other comments, I predict browsers
will soon provide opt-out for notifications, then eventually deprecate them
altogether, like they did with popups/popunders.

Now, more importantly, Safari could work on their odd pick list control
rendering like a dial wheel.

~~~
modeless
Here's a site I made with a legitimate use of Web Push.
[https://james.darpinian.com/satellites/](https://james.darpinian.com/satellites/)

~~~
tannhaeuser
Ok, but I hope you can agree that the overwhelming majority of uses is a user-
hostile dark pattern in news sites where they put crap onto pages so you click
on it to go away, with the intent to generate additional page views and ad
play-outs.

~~~
nsomaru
You asked for a legitimate use case and are now shifting the goal posts to be
about “majority.”

If the web is to improve we need new features and strategies to mitigate the
negative effects of the implementation of these features. Don’t throw the baby
out with the bath water.

~~~
tannhaeuser
New features on "the web" are coming straight from Google to push their
monopolist agenda (DoH, URL hiding just to name a few from this past week).
Seeing as today's web is bordering on becoming useless (save for a couple
enthusiast sites) and net-negative even, only helping autocrats, criminals,
surveillance and privacy-invading monopolists rather than users and content
creators I'd say we've already thrown out the baby with the bath water, and
the "save the web" at all costs narrative needs to go away.

------
tmikaeld
I've been implementing FIDO2 into my serverless application, finally there
will be iOS support!

It really is the golden authentication method, it's very thought through and
incredibly easy to use (unfortunately not to implement though)

~~~
jlokier
FIDO2 is working, but I wouldn't call it "golden" at all.

Tying authentication to a single device you can lose, especially one
controlled by the device vendor not by yourself, sounds highly risk prone to
me.

As far as I'm aware, this is not yet a solved problem with WebauthN or FIDO2
standards - they simply recommend that you provide another authentication
method or backup device for recovery, and leave it to you to figure out. (If
I've got this completely wrong, I'd love to know.)

Although not the same thing, in a similar vein we're already hearing about
people locked out of bank accounts that were created in a phone app, and
Google doc accounts that they can't log into any more.

I wouldn't make the decision to run a business on the back of serverless
services I could only get into with FIDO2 keys that are hidden in a vendor
device that might die any day.

For now, I'll stick with backed up SSH keys and very secret passphrases :-)

~~~
acdha
It’s been a solved problem from the time it launched: you should never have
one FIDO device since that leaves no room for failure. Every service I use
except Amazon implemented this correctly[1] and the significant security
improvements over TOTP or SSH keys are worth it, especially since phishing
operations commonly bypass the easier schemes now.

1\. You’ll need to find a notary if you lose your AWS MFA device

~~~
jlokier
I wouldn't be comfortable with one backup device kept in secure storage
somewhere. If it fails you won't know, and you'll be operating without
redundancy without knowing.

So that means keeping two or more devices in regular use. Somehow, without
carrying them both around or keeping them in the same places. Tricky.

~~~
acdha
It means testing your backups and knowing what your unlock procedure is like —
for example, can another administrator at your company perform that reset for
you? This doesn't need to be something you do daily so you can schedule it but
this is a classic security tradeoff: if you're not comfortable with the odds
of multiple hardware devices simultaneously failing, you can simply decide to
accept the greater security risk of using shared SSH keys or whatever you're
using to manage passwords.

------
jpincheira
I find it incredible that MediaStream Recording is still not out there on
WebKit. They have taken so long to ship this. There's an open ticket[1] since
2012, and we still don't really know if they will implement this for sure on
2020, while Opera, Chrome, and Firefox already support this for years.

This is the main reason why we at Standups don't support video recording on
Safari[2]. They are on the same level as Microsoft Edge, which also does not
support video recording. It's hard for me to understand they did not want to
catch up with the main players.

[1]
[https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=85851](https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=85851)

[2] [https://standups.io/help/not-using-chrome/](https://standups.io/help/not-
using-chrome/)

------
modeless
The Web Push API is missing. I was hoping for that one.

~~~
alexcroox
A lot of companies build a native version of their web app just for push
notifications on iOS. Unfortunately I doubt we’ll see web push any time soon.

~~~
soraminazuki
I avoid many native apps for the exact same reason. Too often I encounter apps
that spam and spy on its users while providing no real benefit over a simple
website.

------
cdbattags
No matter what, any and all improvements to JSC will do wonders to the React
Native ecosystem and it's nice to have a list of targets.

------
skrebbel
Pardon the all-too-typical off topic: woa, Trac! I haven't seen that in a long
time. I have fond recollections of its customizability. Is it still being used
in anger and improving, or is this just a legacy system we're looking at?

~~~
rwmj
Trac was/is truly to most awful bug tracking system. I mean a primary function
of a bug tracking system should surely be to accept bug reports from users,
yet Trac manages to make that the least discoverable and least usable feature.
Even things like subscribing to an existing bug report or listing bugs are
very hard to find. I would say "impossible" for ordinary people, but will get
accused of exaggerating, but go and look at a Trac-based bug tracking system
some time to see what I mean. One at random:
[https://trac.osgeo.org/geos](https://trac.osgeo.org/geos)

~~~
saagarjha
WebKit uses Bugzilla: [https://bugs.webkit.org](https://bugs.webkit.org)

~~~
rwmj
Bugzilla is also pretty awful (and I say this as someone who uses Red Hat's
Bugzilla instance hourly in my job).

------
altmind
Hard to understand what each of this items mean since there is no tracking
issue# mentioned. Some of items cannot even be googled, what's "Turbo DFG"?

~~~
sirn
> Some of items cannot even be googled, what's "Turbo DFG"?

Data Flow Graph, JavaScriptCore's optimizing JIT.

[https://webkit.org/blog/3362/introducing-the-webkit-ftl-
jit/](https://webkit.org/blog/3362/introducing-the-webkit-ftl-jit/)

~~~
saagarjha
_One_ of JavaScriptCore's optimizing JITs.

------
scottdeto
What is "logged in API"?

~~~
hirsin
They broke most federated auth scenarios with ITP, so there needs to be a way
for auth to flow between websites in a way that allows users to consent and
control it. The logged in API basically takes your auth state (to a first
estimate) out of the 3rd party cookies and into the browser. The browser then
understands when to reinject them. Ad networks lose tracking via 3p cookies,
but you stay logged in to your accounts.

------
greatjack613
In response to all those complaining about no competing browsers on IOS. Why
doesn't someone compile chromium for ios and then publish it using AltStore?

[https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src/+/master/docs...](https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src/+/master/docs/ios/build_instructions.md)

[https://altstore.io/](https://altstore.io/)

~~~
earenndil
IOS requires all native code be signed so JIT wouldn't work. It would be a
possibility on a jailbroken device, but someone would have to make a port.

~~~
why-oh-why
Isn’t that the whole point of AltStore? Apple certainly didn’t sign the
GameBoy emulator available on AltStore.

The problem in this case is effort. It’s not that easy to port a browser
effectively.

------
kmlx
as is tradition already, webkit is missing:

\- full PWA

\- ServiceWorkers

\- VP8/9

\- webvr

\- and many others

this could all be mitigated if aapl would let us install custom non-webkit
browsers on ios. unfortunately it seems we will need the courts to force aapl.

~~~
xena
iOS already has progressive web app support

~~~
kmlx
not full support, no

------
riazrizvi
I appreciate this declaration

------
rptr_87
Does webkit support Native messaging like chrome...?

[https://developer.chrome.com/apps/nativeMessaging](https://developer.chrome.com/apps/nativeMessaging)

------
lwansbrough
No mention of PWA features (specifically manifest/installation/web push) is so
lame. Classic Apple politics.

~~~
throwGuardian
How will they force you into the $99/annum developer program, shaft you a cool
30%, play judge and jury to your ios, macOs app store submissions and reject
your work at the first hint of competition, if all the useful PWA features
just work on iOS? Lest you dream of software freedom on Apple devices, their
sycophants and overzealous employees will gaslight you into believing it's all
for user experience and security, and any incidental monopolistic/anti-
competitive byproducts are wholly acceptable collateral damage when the
betterment of iKind, ahem, mankind is at stake.

~~~
threeseed
You need to understand that many of us like Apple's approach.

We aren't looking for software "freedom" on our phones. We just want apps that
are safe, curated, respectful of battery life and do not infringe on our
privacy or user experience. Apple's approach gives us that.

So by all means complain about app store submissions but as a developer I
don't have sympathy for other developers who play loose and fast with the
rules.

~~~
banachtarski
I really disagree with this viewpoint. There's no reason Apple can't
simultaneously embrace open standards while providing implementations that
enforce privacy and battery life and all that. They could even push to improve
those standards. What you have instead is the push for an isolated platform to
enforce a monopoly and exclusion. Many of us may like it, but count me out.

------
asciident
No WebP? Safari is about to become out of date, and websites will stop working
for it. I'm using WebP on my websites with no fallback to jpeg/png at the end
of the year.

~~~
Carpetsmoker
Imagine being software developer with a sense of professionalism and dealing
with your customers as they are, even if it's annoying a tad bit of extra
work, instead of telling them to sod off if they're using a browser you don't
like.

~~~
wilsonrocks
While I Personaly wouldn't drop JPEG support yet...

Do non-web software developers support every CPU architecture? Because I'm
sure I've heard of apps that not run on macs, or just windows and not
Raspberry Pis.

~~~
chipotle_coyote
You're trying to draw a comparison between app developers supporting multiple
CPU architectures for their applications, and web developers continuing to use
JPEG and PNG files for their web sites. I honestly just don't see how this
comparison works.

------
The_rationalist
It's fascinating to see how pathetic this roadmap is. The totality (100%) of
their planned features are already available on chromium. Guess what, even
after that the chromium of today (not 2020) still has an order of magnitude
more features, optimisations and testing. In human hours wise, comparing the
number of full-time safari developers vs the number of full-time chromium
(Google, Microsoft, opera, etc) developers is like comparing a third world
country vs the USA GDP. Or more exactly: 217,369 commits vs 835,383 commits!

Apple should just be rational and make the same synergistic move as Microsoft:
migrate to chromium. It would save them R&W (reinventing the wheel) money, and
they could allocate it to true R&D, allowing the web to move forward for
making the world a better place.

If for whatever reason they wanted to opt out of some chromium features such
as PWA they could still do it.

With such absurd politics, I wonder how Apple survived through history. Indeed
the lack of rationality from the demand must help and irrational supply to
thrive.

~~~
Razengan
> _Apple should just be rational and make the same synergistic move as
> Microsoft: migrate to chromium. It would save them R &W (reinventing the
> wheel) money, and they could allocate it to true R&D, allowing the web to
> move forward for making the world a better place._

Chromium is a descendant of WebKit in the first place...

> _With such absurd politics, I wonder how Apple survived through history._

Because users agree with them.

~~~
The_rationalist
_Chromium is a descendant of WebKit in the first place..._ And safari is a
descendant of KHTML, double standard I guess? The world change.

