
Sex, honour, shame and blackmail in an online world - hawski
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-37735368
======
docdeek
"More recently Qandeel Baloch, who came from a village in Pakistan's Punjab
region, used social media to gain celebrity by posting provocative selfies
online. Known as the Kim Kardashian of Pakistan, she challenged Pakistani
social norms by embracing the sexualised culture of the internet - until she
was strangled by her brother in July this year for bringing shame on the
family.”

That paragraph got dark real fast.

~~~
pjc50
And people wonder why feminism is important.

It's not just a non-western phenomenon. The church in Ireland operated a
system of forced labour detention for women considered "immoral" known as the
Magdalene Laundries:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_Laundries_in_Ireland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_Laundries_in_Ireland)
. The last one closed in 1996. There was eventually a state apology and
compensation, but astonishingly as far as I can tell nobody has even been
properly prosecuted for it.

"Patriarchy" is a word that often seems over-used, but only because violent
words and attitudes have so often been the prelude for violent actions with
state and social complicity. You can find plenty of cases in the west where
women speak up and face death threats. Such as for suggesting that a woman's
face appear on some bank notes:
[http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25641941](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25641941)

The line between people sending death threats on twitter and the person who
strangled his sister for posting selfies is very thin.

~~~
saiya-jin
feminism in the true meaning is very important, and it's mission might be
+-over in the west, but a lot of work to be done elsewhere.

i have an issue though with so called feminist women that don't care about
gender equality, but they want just all the benefits for them, without other
parts that naturally come with them (ie be always treated like a princess but
as equal at the same time - come on, we're not schizophrenics, and so on -
list could be endless).

most of them don't care much about what is happening in truly oppressive
places around the globe (yeah, it's horrible! can you name few cases?
what???), they just found another way to yell at others and express life
frustrations, and at this time most don't have balls to actually argue to not
be labeled sexist and whatnot.

you think I am talking about some imaginary caricatures - far from that, and
those beings give feminism a very bad name and prohibit the whole movement to
be taken seriously in some circles. too loud where it doesn't matter anymore,
and too quiet where it should.

~~~
legodt
Although there are not easily comparable atrocities going on often in the
West, that does not end the need for feminism out here. Maybe it does for you
because at this point it doesn't affect you directly, but we still have a
deeply entrenched rape culture where brock turners and Donald Trumps can get
away with assault in a very public way. Heck, turn on the tv and just listen
for a while. The culture here is still very sexist. Rape victims are still
terrified to come forward in America because of the culture stacked against
them. I get what you are trying to say but it does not sound like you are
fully educated on the matter and it comes across as a narrow world view. Look
into intersectionality in feminism and then some discussions about the garbage
fire that is colloquially referred to as "white feminism," which is what I
believe you are trying to denounce in your post.

~~~
Chris2048
> deeply entrenched rape culture where Brock Turners and Donald Trumps can get
> away with assault in a very public way

"rape culture", in its original meaning, is a society that allows or
encourages rape; Perceived sexism or public allegations of "sexual assault"
isn't the same thing.

> Rape victims are still terrified to come forward in America because of the
> culture stacked against them

What is this claim based on?

~~~
judahmeek
> "rape culture", in its original meaning, is a society that allows or
> encourages rape

The term "rape culture" was first coined in the 1970s... terms have been known
to evolve over time.

> What is this claim based on?

"From 2006 to 2010, the highest percentages of unreported crime were among
household theft (67%) and rape or sexual assault (65%) victimizations, while
the lowest percentage was among motor vehicle theft (17%) victimizations." [0]

0:
[https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/vnrp0610.pdf](https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/vnrp0610.pdf)

~~~
Chris2048
> terms have been known to evolve over time

And when did this one "evolve"?

>> What is this claim based on?

The claim was "Rape victims are still terrified to come forward".

Further, there are ambiguities in that report:

"Rape OR sexual assault"; "Fear of reprisal OR getting offender in trouble"
(28%)

The difference between each of these two things is important, and certainly
impacts the interpretation of results.

~~~
judahmeek
> The difference between each of these two things is important, and certainly
> impacts the interpretation of results.

How so?

~~~
Chris2048
One, or the other, can or cannot support the claim "Rape victims are still
terrified to come forward".

A victim of sexual assault that isn't rape cannot be counted towards this
figure, so an aggregate number for both rape and sexual assault isn't helpful.

------
ireadfaces
I feel very disturbed when I hear all this. I do my part, whenever I hear
someone saying something degrading for woman, even as a joke, I object.
Because i know, that even if it is said as a joke, if it is being said over
and over, you tend to think that's the way it works. Many a times, things
happened not just because someone did something, but because someone did not
do what he should have done to stop something from happening. Do your part, if
everyone will do their part to stop it, it will change a lot.

~~~
wastedhours
The issue with that is of course not the joking - I'm firmly of the belief
jokes can be made on any subject and shouldn't be taboo, so long as both
parties (teller and listener) equally know it's a joke. Unfortunately, it's an
issue when (whether due to intelligence, naivety or misaligned personalities)
the fact something's a joke isn't shared, however I don't think objecting to
something you interpret as a joke, and you know is being told as a joke, is
the right course of action.

But then, I need to check my own privilege to be fair.

------
personjerry
One thing I find ironic is that we talk about bringing feminism to non-
westernized countries like Pakistan, when Japan, one of the favored trading
partners of Western countries, is full of stigma against the educated and
working woman because of their "traditional" cultural views. Where are the
feminists and the media for this cause?

~~~
pjc50
One of the things that feminists tend to be aware of is that feminism isn't
something you airdrop onto a culture, it has to be changed from within. And
the voice of foreigners is often small or even counterproductive. How would
"Europeans bringing feminism to America" play out? I get the impression from
the election culture war that it would go down badly.

It's often more effective to focus on local issues where you actually have a
vote. Plenty of those in the West.

~~~
digi_owl
This is not limited to feminism in any way what so ever.

Any change to a nation/culture/group/whatever has to come from within. And any
pressure for change from outside may well just harden the status quo, as
conservatives turn it into a fight against invaders.

------
w_t_payne
In this age of information, an excess of social conservatism is a systemic
weakness for a culture; perhaps an existential weakness.

~~~
littletimmy
There is much evidence to suggest that exactly the opposite is true: an excess
of social liberalism leads to the downfall of a culture. Social conservatism
means stable families, strong men, and social cohesion, which translates into
a stronger nation. Social liberalism, as it has now, degenerates into identity
politics and political paralysis. As Aristotle put it, "Tolerance and apathy
are the last virtues of a dying society."

The greatest time for the middle class in the United States, for example, was
in the 50s, when society was much more conservative than it is now. (That's
what the "Make America Great Again" is all about.) The 50s are the last decade
that the conservative WASP aristocracy was in power. Every election since,
groups like African Americans, women, and Jews have increased their power and
brought about with them big government. How is that an improvement? Surely,
you agree that big government is disastrous for the country?

There's a book "Sex and Culture" by J.D. Unwin that actually argues
(convincingly in my opinion) that a suppression of sexual energies (i.e.
control of women) is a necessary (not sufficient) condition for a civilization
to succeed. Check it out.

~~~
saalweachter
Ahh, yes, the 1950s, when millions of veterans went to college for free and
obtained low-interest mortgages under the GI Bill, when the Interstate Highway
System -- perhaps the largest, most costly, and most environmentally
consequential public works program ever -- was begun, when half the world fell
to Communism, when schools were forciably integrated and whites began to flee
cities and urban centers for the implicitly segregated suburbs, when modern
medicine developed the polio vaccine and the birth control pill, when half the
US workforce was unionized, when the Kinsey Report and Playboy were first
published...

Wait, what were we talking about?

~~~
littletimmy
Social conservatism.

Even if I take your point that big government can be good, one has to concede
that it succeeded with social conservatism. Ever since social liberalism took
hold, things have gone steadily downhill.

------
newswriter9
It's ironic. In the Middle East, they use "porn" of you as revenge. In
America, the government uses porn you look at to shame you.

[http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-25118156](http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-25118156)

