
Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action - busymom0
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/31/trump-says-he-will-ban-tiktok-through-executive-action-as-soon-as-saturday.html
======
Twisell
Not US citizen here. Can someone explain how in a democracy the chief
executive can singlehandedly decide to ban a media only a few month before
elections?

I can't make any sense of that, it seems wrong at so many levels...

~~~
caymanjim
The short answer is that he can't. The president has no power to ban TikTok.
The president also has no control over how the app is distributed or its
connectivity. He can say whatever he wants, and he can strongarm the agencies
he has some control over (like the FCC), but there's simply no mechanism by
which a ban can be enforced, legal or technical. Unless Google and Apple
decide to voluntarily remove it from their app stores and forcibly remove
existing downloads, it's not going away, and neither company is going to do
that without a legal battle. There's no one who even has the authority to
demand it, though.

~~~
anon9001
I want you to be right, but I don't think you are.

He's likely to issue some kind of executive order forcing bytedance to divest
tiktok to continue operations. We may see some DoJ or FCC enforcement action
that's effectively a "ban" (for users) while only being legally a temporary
disruption of service pending compliance (for lawmakers, judges, enforcement
agencies, etc to be okay with it). As we have learned over the last 4 years,
the president has near absolute control over all federal actions.

I think the safe bet is a bunch of saber rattling that ends with some US
entity buying tiktok.

~~~
stjohnswarts
He is right actually, and has a great argument and I don't feel you are
correct at all. It looks like TikTok USA is currently trying to shut him down
by simply becoming a completely independent company that is USA based and
doesn't share any data with China. That is the 3rd option.

However if the CIA has some evidence that the Chinese are gathering up
information and feeding it straight to their cybertroll farms then he
absolutely can shut it all down and arrest some people because then they are
breaking the law and that falls under Federal police power.

------
euix
Shows how far the balance of power has shifted in the last 20 years back when
the Chinese government was banning western products to prevent "spiritual
pollution" and "western influence". Now we got the reverse and it's also for
ideological reasons (at least at face value).

Wonder if WeChat is next. That would be fairly effective in prevent overseas
Chinese from communicating with the mainland and a lot of mom and pop
businesses that operate through Wechat like the students who buy products for
people back in China and advertise and transfer money using WeChat.

We'll be back to buying calling cards and dialing telephones, but I guess this
is the era of decoupling one way or the other.

Maybe people will have to invent some kind of transformer software, like you
plug a western chat app on one side and it passes messages through a third
party relay to a chinese messaging app.

~~~
tanilama
No Westerners actually use Wechat.

TikTok is getting mainstream in US.

That is the difference

~~~
chapium
Anyone with relatives in china would. That includes westerners.

------
envy2
This is a terrible development and precedent. Whatever you think of the CCP
and the Chinese approach to censorship and tech, building our own 'Great
Firewall' and banning foreign apps/services we don't like is not the answer.
It just legitimises the Chinese approach and sends us further down the road to
a fragmented rather than open internet.

~~~
glenstein
I think it's reasonable to do for national security purposes, just like I
think it's reasonable to disentangle U.S. industries from Chinese companies
that pose national security threats and steal trade secrets.

So as a matter of principle, at least, I'm fine with it. I can't say I feel
great about the wisdom of banning Tiktok in particular, but I won't let that
confuse me into disagreeing with the underlying principle.

~~~
shlant
> I think it's reasonable to do for national security purposes

Haven't the most egregious erosions of civil liberties (Patriot Act for
example) been implemented using the same argument? Not commenting on the
validity of your position specifically, but your reasoning for it seems like
it could be applied to just about anything regardless of how well it fits into
the idea of a free and open democracy

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _Haven 't the most egregious erosions of civil liberties (Patriot Act for
> example) been implemented using the same argument?_

Yes. We should be careful about it. That’s why I’m against secret courts. But
this action us happening in the open, and ByteDance will have a chance to
challenge it in court. (Something no American company could do in China.)

Just because something can be abused doesn’t mean it is always abusive.

------
ApolloFortyNine
Not even getting into the CCP ties, it's always struck me as unfair that
Western social media companies are banned in China, while Chinese ones have
been able to compete Worldwide.

In a way this gives Chinese apps an immediate advantage (as some are
indirectly calling out in this comment section). If you want to reach out to
someone in China, you have to use a Chinese company's app. Since social media
is mostly a winner take all (or at least has a major snowball affect), this
helps the Chinese social media company's grow even bigger. Now you already
have one social media app for contacting people in China installed, why not
use that app for contacting others?

~~~
Al-Khwarizmi
I agree it's unfair, but when you defend something for moral reasons or claim
to have a moral high ground, you should stick with it even if it's unfair,
right?

The West has always said that the Chinese bans to Western social media and
tech companies were authoritarian and antidemocratic. How is this less so?

~~~
CydeWeys
This gets right to the heart of the paradox of tolerance. When your country is
tolerant of other countries' companies operating locally, but they aren't
tolerant of the same, then you're going to eventually be overrun. You cannot
defeat the intolerant through blanket tolerance; consequences and retaliation
are necessary. To make it even simpler, tit-for-tat is a good strategy for
iterated prisoner's dilemma; always cooperate isn't.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance)

~~~
bigpumpkin
Hah! Why doesn't the US ban the Nazi party or the KKK if it really cares about
the Paradox of tolerance?

~~~
ethbro
Because neither are numerous enough so as to constitute a legitimate threat.

If we started seeing local governments having openly KKK or neo-Nazi
majorities, the freedom of speech balance would substantially alter.

First amendment rights in the US are typically circumscribed only via a
requirement to show actual, existential harm.

~~~
musha68k
The problem is that historically this has been the case only when it was
essentially too late.

Death by a thousand cuts:

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creeping_normality](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creeping_normality)

~~~
ethbro
That feels like fuzzy, post-hoc rationalization.

What about when we consider the opposite? How many insignificant-in-the-
moment-seeming changes never effect any sort of larger change?

------
nan0
Could this be the same as a tit for tat measure like with tariffs? China has
banned a lot of US services and forced US corporations to pull content from
their stores too [0] [1].

Genuinely asking and want to remain open-minded about this.

0:[https://www.gadgetsnow.com/slideshows/10-popular-apps-and-
we...](https://www.gadgetsnow.com/slideshows/10-popular-apps-and-websites-
blocked-in-china/photolist/76806138.cms)

1:
[https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.news18.com/amp/news/tech/ch...](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.news18.com/amp/news/tech/china-
forces-apple-to-take-down-two-podcast-apps-from-its-app-store-2665823.html)

~~~
magicsmoke
It definitely mirrors the kinds of restrictions China puts on US companies
with joint ventures, censorship of sensitive topics, and keeping data on
Chinese servers.

However, I think why this feels unsettling even if it just mirrors what
China's done is because up to now there was a sense that the US has a stronger
economy, society, and culture than China, and these restrictions China put on
US companies reflected their weakness and insecurity. But now the US is doing
what China's done for decades. It shatters that aura of American superiority,
implies that China's been right all along on matters of national security, and
foreshadows a future where previously sacred assumptions of American democracy
become obsoleted by new technology. I'm reminded of hand weavers smashing
machine looms during the dawn of the industrial revolution.

~~~
khuey
Or maybe it just implies that the Golden Rule still exists?

~~~
logicchains
"An eye for an eye" is not the Golden Rule!

~~~
khuey
It sort of is, if you think of it as "don't poke out other people's eyes if
you don't want them to poke yours out".

~~~
megameter
The "do not do...what you would not wish done" variant is actually called the
Silver Rule, no joke.

------
surround
I’m torn. On one hand, we’ve seen how TikTok has been used by the CCP to
extend the reach of its censorship, oppression, and surveillance. On the other
hand, I’m not sure if the government should be deciding what software we’re
allowed to have.

~~~
busymom0
I think this is a good measure to even the playing field. Thousands of
companies are blocked in China. So why not do the same?

~~~
t1kt0kaway
Because I (a citizen) might want to access the information provided by this
service.

I (an individual) would be happy to see TikTok banned, along with
Twitter/Facebook/Instagram/etc, because I see them as vain wastes of time with
a sinister twist. But I've also met teenagers, and even been one! So I can
guess how they might respond to a government-imposed ban on a new and
interesting vice.

And I (a citizen) am deeply suspicious of being told that I must not know
something. It smells like corruption and tyranny. The belief that knowledge
should be free is tattooed on my soul (and my skin).

Tit-for-tat only works in the absence of moral imperatives.

~~~
jasonlfunk
But it isn’t about you not knowing something, it’s about the Chinese
government knowing things through TikTok.

------
zelly
Hopefully this will raise awareness on PWAs. Hopefully using PWAs on mobile
will be normalized by the 18-24 year olds. TikTok's PWA seems intentionally
gimped (you can't even search) but I will bet it will suddenly start working
once it disappears from the Western app stores. Is there anything TikTok does
that the Web Platform + WASM cannot do? (besides spying)

~~~
burtonator
I'm not even sure POTUS can ban a site just by an executive order... unless
I'm REALLY weak on US law...

but a PWA wouldn't stop this. Most of the mobile APIs aren't available on PWA
and if the site is blocked via route it won't help

~~~
dragonwriter
> I'm not even sure POTUS can ban a site just by an executive order... unless
> I'm REALLY weak on US law...

Being ignorant of the special area of law that is “Presidential emergency
powers regarding trade with foreign nations” isn't necessarily being really
weak on US law generally, though that narrow area of law ends up contravening
a lot of what you might correctly understand elsewhere when it is triggered.

It's not clear exactly what the content of the order will be, without which we
can't really begin to assess whether he has the power to issue it, but there
are certainly, at a minimum, things he could due to obstruct their ability to
fully interact with US markets under Presidential emergency powers. Given that
Trump's I formal descriptions preceding executive actions have not been a
particularly good guide to the details of the actions, I don't know that any
deeper analysis wouldn't largely wasted.

------
FraKtus
We are on HN here, right? Does anybody was able to do a man in the middle
inspection to prove that the app is spying on Users?

Does anybody did inspect the binary and found a back door in the app?

In am working in video and I find that the tool they did develop allowing kids
to remix video succeeded were previous startup failed...

~~~
instance
There is ongoing research by different companies/people. For example, check
out penetrum: [https://penetrum.com/research](https://penetrum.com/research)

Got it from this reddit thread:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/fxgi06/not_new_news...](https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/fxgi06/not_new_news_but_tbh_if_you_have_tiktiok_just_get/fmuko1m/?context=1)

It'd be awesome if the reverse engineered code was on Github or something. I
found this repo but wasn't able to look deep into it yet, so take with a grain
of salt:
[https://github.com/augustgl/tiktok_source](https://github.com/augustgl/tiktok_source)

~~~
FraKtus
Thanks!

penetrum has this nice white paper:

Penetrum_TikTok_Security_Analysis_whitepaper.pdf

This is their conclusion:

"After extensive research, we have found that not only is TikTok a massive
security flaw waiting to happen, but the ties that they have to Chinese
parties and Chinese ISP’s make it a very vulnerable source of data that still
has more to be investigated. Data harvesting, tracking, fingerprinting, and
user information occurs throughout the entire application. As a US company, we
feel that it is our responsibility to raise awareness of this extensive data
harvesting to TikTok’s 1 billion users."

There is bad coding in the app but is that enough for the ban?

They also seems to get telemetry data, who does not :-)

~~~
quotemstr
That white paper is scare-mongering garbage, and I don't say that lightly.
Some of the horrible things TikTok is supposedly doing:

* Using Java reflection (which almost everyone does)

* Webview (many of your apps are just thin webview wrappers)

* Log device information (uh, logging things like the OS version for diagnostics and metrics is _perfectly normal_ )

The paper uses the word "monitoring" appearing in a debug message as evidence
that the app is built to spy on users. Here's the log message that they want
to claim proves TikTok evil-doing:

    
    
        AFlogger.afInfoLog("Turning on monitoring")
    

Uh, the word "monitoring" has plenty of perfectly innocuous uses, e.g.,
monitoring memory use. If this thing really were trying to monitor user
behavior in some sneaky way for the CCP, why the hell would they log about it,
_in English_?

In another section of scare-longering, these "researchers" try to cast
asperations on the app calling the Java equivalent of system(3) to run a
subprocess. Uh, so what? That's also a fairly common thing to do on Android
--- people use it to, e.g., run logcat for diagnostics (logcat filters the
logs to only ones from the running UID, so there's no privacy leak).

In yet another section of scare-mongering, the document suggests that TikTok's
use of MD5 is some kind of deliberate back-door. No, it's probably just like
every other use of MD5 these days: some junior developer who hasn't kept up on
the recent MD5 attacks.

Yes, TikTok ignores TLS errors. That's just shitty programming. But like the
MD5 thing, I'm going to chalk it up to just shitty coding, not some kind of
deliberate spyware backdoor. This code would certainly not pass my code
review. But I see no evidence of malice. These are errors that junior
developers make everywhere.

There's also a SQL injection. The researchers haven't shown that the inputs to
the SQL query are unsanitized, and even so, injecting SQL _from a UI text
book_ to _the local SQLite database_ is no big deal. The user owns the device!
It's _certainly_ not evidence of some kind of nefarious backdoor.

On top of all of that, the app is sandboxed, like every other Android app.
Even if there _were_ some ultra-mega remote code execution facility wired
directly to Xi Jinping's desk, there'd be minimal risk, because the app
couldn't look at the rest of the system! This whole analysis is aggressively,
painfully, and conspicuously stupid. All this article tells me is 1) TikTok's
software engineering team is too junior, and 2) people really, really, really
_want_ to believe that the app is evil.

This execrable article is one of the worst security reviews that I have ever
read, and I've read a lot of them. It makes me yearn for the days of Colin
Powell bullshitting the UN about Iraqi yellowcake. At least Powell didn't make
6th grade writing and logic errors.

This is "so if she weighs the same as a duck...she must be a witch!" level of
analysis.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5iMhHCGuOI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5iMhHCGuOI)

------
cromwellian
This will be a huge gift horse to Zuckerberg/Facebook and I have a sneaking
suspicion it's a project of Peter Thiel. There are a lot of remedies that
could be taken if we suspect TikTok of malfeasance, but a straight up ban? I
smell fish.

~~~
xxpor
If it is a project of Peter Thiel, I would hope that would finally wake
everyone up to how bad faith calling himself a libertarian is.

~~~
cromwellian
Just consider the _HUGE_ conflict of interest if an Facebook board member, and
Trump inner circle confidant, had any input into this process.

~~~
supergirl
where is the conflict? facebook is an america company so the president would
be acting in the interest of an american company

~~~
cromwellian
The conflict is the presidents advisor sitting on the board of the company
most likely to benefit from the ban.

------
markosaric
Ban Facebook and Google too? Their data collection is so much more powerful.
Never seen TikTok scripts anywhere while most apps and sites send your
personal data to FB and Google. Pretty much every American is tracked by
Google and FB no matter whether they have an account or whether they install
their app.

~~~
glenstein
Like the other commenter I'm not so sure it's obvious that domestic data
collection is 'so much more powerful' \- presumably you can learn remarkably
specific things about people via tiktok.

And GoogleBook aren't using data collection in service of major world power
that is, in many senses, an antagonist to the western world, and we have
avenues for oversight/reform available to us that we don't necessarily have
with tiktok. That's not to say I think we should ban tiktok, but that
contemplation of a ban doesn't bring with it the implication that GoogleBook
would need the same treatment.

~~~
xvector
> and we have avenues for oversight/reform available to us that we don't
> necessarily have with tiktok

Avenues that seem to be working oh-so-well, with the NSA continuing to operate
PRISM and hand out NSLs and gag orders?

~~~
glenstein
Yup. Low-effort expressions of incredulity such as this one are a dime a dozen
on the internet, and barely worth their weight in bits. We really do have the
ability to haul them before congress, impose fines, bring forward anti-trust
cases.

It surely is imperfect, but as I said we have tools we can bring to bear, and
it's in a context of a working relationship with the US rather than foreign
adversaries which is what distinguish those cases from TikTok. If you read
that and all you heard was 'Big Tech is Perfect' then I'm just wasting my time
here.

------
mrtksn
There’s ongoing joke about USA becoming large Turkey because all the stuff
that we used to say that would never happen in a proper democracy is happening
one by one.

I know you don’t want to hear it, I know you think that you are exceptional
and you are not like the others who ban apps and websıtes but I am going to
say it anyway as a record for the future.

When Turkey banned YouTube or Twitter of course it was banned to “protect the
rights of the citizens”.

Theses things always happen for noble reasons.

Welcome to the world where the government decides what app or service you can
use.

I am sure that it’s necessary to keep you safe from these evil foreigners.
Could have regulated user data safety but ban is the way to go.

The only downside is, we can no longer argue that in a proper democracies
governments don’t ban stuff. USA was the example used to demand rights when
people were protesting against totalitarian governments and it’s gone. Now the
governments would ban Twitter Facebook and everything else when they feel like
doing so and will say that it is for national security reason, look even the
USA is doing it!

BTW, Turkey is preparing to ban Twitter again. Of course it is to preserve the
rights of its citizens, it always is. China, Cuba, Iran, Russia, Turkey - the
usual suspects that ban access, they also ban for the greater good. It is
always for national security or to preserver the rights of its citizens.

~~~
chillacy
Well the US banned Kinder Eggs. I don't necessarily like it but the US has a
history of protectionist trade laws.

------
Lammy
I'm curious what they know about TikTok that isn't public. This seems too
drastic for just trade posturing.

~~~
koboll
In all seriousness, TikTok's Gen-Z userbase played a big role in a huge
embarrassment for Trump recently, and given that there seems no end to his
personal vanity and vindictiveness, I would not be surprised if this decision
was rooted at least in part in vengeance against its users.

See: [https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/21/style/tiktok-trump-
rally-...](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/21/style/tiktok-trump-rally-
tulsa.html)

~~~
Lammy
Why would any candidate seek "vengeance" in an election year toward a cohort
who will be voting for the first time (in many cases) in 2020 and who seem
overall more conservative than the previous generation? It seems way more
likely to me that the jester is cover for or distraction from something much
more serious, and I'd rather talk about that than feed the jester's personal
vanity by interpreting every major world event through orange-colored glasses
:)

~~~
xvector
Trump is not the most reasonable person. If you offend him he will burn you.
This is what is happening with TikTok.

------
shiado
Dems are in a rough spot on this one, it will be hard to attack an action
against an app with documented CCP/PLA involvement when they went so hard
against FB for their inaction on use of the platform by foreign powers.

~~~
bluecalm
Why would they want to defend it? Addictive social media app based in China
being forced to go is beneficial for everyone. It's even better if you're not
the one removing rights so the blame goes to your political opponent.

~~~
busymom0
[https://www.nationalreview.com/news/dianne-feinstein-
lauds-c...](https://www.nationalreview.com/news/dianne-feinstein-lauds-china-
as-a-respectable-nation-in-senate-committee-hearing/)

------
linlucas
Now people in the US will have to use a VPN to access a Chinese app. Oh how
the turntables.

------
coliveira
The US is acting like a desperate country that has no idea what it is doing.
It is evident to the whole world that the US doesn't want to compete at the
level of high technology, which is what the Chinese have achieved in the last
couple of years. Whenever a country tries to create a fence around it, then it
is just displaying weakness. It would be much more constructive for the US to
recognize that they're getting behind in the technology game and compete as
adults.

~~~
dragonwriter
> The US is acting like a desperate country that has no idea what it is doing

The US Administration is acting like a desperate regime that knows exactly
what it is doing trying to generate a foreign crisis to distract from domestic
political problems to generate a rally-around-the-flag effect.

~~~
coliveira
I agree with that. In fact it seems like Trump is trying very hard to start a
new war before the election.

~~~
La1n
Remember Iran earlier this year, a very similar situation.

------
in3d
Another discussion:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24016858](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24016858)

------
ust
Explanation of the current legal structure that can be used to ban/force
divestment of TikTok:

[https://www.lawfareblog.com/tiktok-and-law-primer-case-
you-n...](https://www.lawfareblog.com/tiktok-and-law-primer-case-you-need-
explain-things-your-teenager)

In short, a president has substantial powers (granted by Congress via IEEPA
and CFIUS) to institute a ban or force a divestment of any company "engaged in
interstate commerce in the United States", if "national emergency" or
"national security" is involved. So, legally, it seems that president can ban
TikTok, under certain conditions (that may not be so difficult to achieve).
The link above only explains the current legal framework, not whether banning
the TikTok is in itself a good or a bad thing. IANAL, so I can't judge the
competence of the presented arguments, but it is written by a respected law
professor.

------
vwat
From first principles reasoning, this is a good idea. We don’t ban Chinese
websites, books or products. Although we tax their products more now. Apps
aren’t like physical commodities. They can be used to gather data, quite
invasively, shape and form public opinion in a new and more visceral way, as
well as take advantage of exploits. Admittedly websites can do that too, but
the scale of adoption of Tiktok makes this a special case. Just by sheer
numbers, many important people will be using tiktok, or their families,
colleagues and friends. If you ever complained about Russian election
meddling, then you are a hypocrite if you don’t support this. What if tiktok
was Russia’s? I think some people are getting lost in the politics.

The facts: we gain almost nothing by having tiktok around. We lose nothing by
banning it, and gain a little bit of buffer against possible threats like
election meddling, data mining for nefarious purposes and other things.
Completely leaving politics aside, I basically support this.

~~~
walki
> The facts: we gain almost nothing by having tiktok around. We lose nothing
> by banning it, and gain a little bit of buffer against possible threats like
> election meddling, data mining for nefarious purposes and other things.
> Completely leaving politics aside, I basically support this.

What about if all non-US countries start reasoning like you and ban Youtube,
Facebook, ...?

~~~
AlchemistCamp
China has been doing that for over a decade and I don't know of anyplace where
WeChat is banned.

~~~
pantalaimon
China has also put dissident and unwanted people in 're-education' camps.
Should we do that next?

------
Razengan
What about Reddit and Riot and everyone else owned or invested in by Tencent
and other Chinese companies?

------
tchaffee
Likely to turn out similar to when the UK banned the Sex Pistols' first album.
It will become a must-have item for those in their rebellious teen years.

------
croutonwhiskers
Wasn't microsoft trying to acquire tiktok? Why not just let that happen rather
than try to do something so extreme?

I'm not partial to tiktok at all but this is way to much of a big government
move than I feel comfortable with.

Isn't this a violation of our first amendment rights?

~~~
fiblye
Honestly, Microsoft could purchase TikTok in its entirety and I still wouldn’t
believe that it’s anything more than a front for the Chinese government. MS
has a reputation for being exceedingly cozy with governments.

No matter how they try to spin off or rebrand this product or abandon ties to
the old parent company, I’d never trust it as much as something entirely new.

If the NSA tried putting out a social media network, nobody would trust it. If
they sold it off completely and had zero official NSA employees, nobody would
trust it. And rightfully so. TikTok feels the same to me.

~~~
xvector
> If the NSA tried putting out a social media network, nobody would trust it.

How ironic to see this statement on HN, when almost every American trusts
Google or Facebook despite them being PRISM partners and subject to the
control of the NSA.

~~~
fiblye
Not really ironic here, since the top voted comment on every thread about
Google or Facebook is about exactly that problem.

------
Udik
So what happens from the practical point of view? Is the government going to
delete an app from the phones of 80 million people? Really curious to see this
one.

~~~
pldr1234
It would be a legal request via Apple.

But from a truly practical point of view, TikTok will just end up replaced by
a homegrown version. The real question is, who's homegrown version will be the
winner?

I believe FB and Snap are both privately working on a replacement. Not sure
about others.

~~~
DonHopkins
I haven't used it so I don't actually know, but what does TikTok do that most
of the other existing video apps that TikTok eclipsed didn't already (or don't
now) do?

~~~
logicchains
It's recommendation system is way better. In particular, it lets you tell it
"I don't want to see more videos like this", and does a decent job of sticking
to that.

------
Thaxll
So how do you ban an app actually? Yes they could remove the app from the app
store but what about the APIs etc...?

Also the next TikTok clone is going to be a massive succes.

~~~
plibither8
> Also the next TikTok clone is going to be a massive succes.

Instagram has already come up with Instagram Reels. After India banned TikTok,
Instagram released Reels to the Indian market within the week, and I've got to
say it's pretty darn similar to tiktok, so essentially just capitalising on
their already humongous user base and the ban.

[https://www.businessinsider.com/instagram-reels-tiktok-
compe...](https://www.businessinsider.com/instagram-reels-tiktok-competitor-
short-video-us-launch-explainer-2020-7)

------
civil_engineer
This is 100% Sarah Cooper’s fault.

[https://t.co/1Mn8nk363f](https://t.co/1Mn8nk363f)

------
siruncledrew
If I had to guess, there’s 2 sides to this coin.

On one side, there is the concern over China’s connection with Tiktok and
their foreign influence on the US.

On the other side, shutting off access to Tiktok allows more domestic control
over what mass communication options people have to interact with each other.

There’s something to be gained for someone(s) in both cases.

~~~
nfc_
The thing is other countries can now use the this precedent to demand domestic
control of US social media companies.

France may have a the same foreign influence concerns issue with the non-
transparency of the FB news feed algo.

------
osrec
Is the ban driven by the fact that Tiktok users helped boycott the rally at
Tulsa?

------
tonetheman
While a lot these comments are interesting, the real reason our idiot
president wants to ban tiktok is because they messed up one of his events.
Then he irrationally hates China. He is an idiot.

------
kristopolous
This could only lose him votes. He's obviously isolated himself from the savvy
political operatives that rode him into victory last time.

I welcome the continued missteps

~~~
KineticLensman
> This could only lose him votes

Yes, but he has probably decided that the people who are active TikTok users
AND Trump voters are not a large part of the base.

~~~
kristopolous
The young "gamer republican" and the people wooed by flashy Milo types really
helped push him over in the rust belt last time. How out of date that sounds
now just shows how much he's lost that group.

His calculation is wrong. There's a few remaining bowties in the under 30
group but now probably not more than any other time.

Lucky for him the democrats are profoundly incompetent and would find a way to
trip over their own shoelaces while walking barefoot so it may not matter.

------
fallingfrog
If any other country in the world did this to, say, Facebook, we would
denounce them as an illegitimate dictator. Astonishing.

~~~
stunt
That literally has happened already when Iran banned Facebook and Twitter
during protest against election fraud that lead to Ahmadinejad to stay in
power for second term.

However, Iran banned Facebook merely because it was being used by protesters
to share content about police brutality during protest.

So I'm not sure if that's a fair comparison.

I think governments are realizing that social networks are important strategic
service because of the amount of data they capture. Before internet era
countries were protecting way less data about their citizens with their
teeths.

~~~
fallingfrog
If you think the he’s banning TikTok for any other reason than teenagers
sharing content about police brutality during protests, you really are a
mooncalf..

------
KoftaBob
I have yet to hear an explanation of how a TikTok ban would even work here.
We’re not authoritarian like China, the gov can’t just tell all the internet
service providers to block a website.

If we do introduce the legal/logistical mechanism for the federal government
to be able to do that, I can assure you they won’t stop at just tiktok.

------
rajacombinator
Did Zuck finally learn how to play the game?

~~~
xvector
Yup. Amazing intervention from Zuck. He has effectively secured TikTok’s
userbase. To be a fly on a wall during his backdoor deals with Trump...

------
nfc_
Hopefully this becomes a wake-up call to investors in China tech. Instead of
funding another social media app, they should invest in core technologies like
semiconductor manufacturing equipment.

The success of the STAR market is a good start. Hope the momentum can sustain
this decade, then we may see the tables turned.

------
tomsiw
I don't get it. TicToc was and still is operating in US under Chinese control.
Now American company (MS) wants to take control over the service effectively
ending Chinese ownership and suddenly US president decides to ban the service.
Isn't it against American business?

~~~
bigpumpkin
Wouldn't ban it if Parler acquired it.

------
bayesian_horse
I'm divided about this. Banning TikTok can be seen as censorship and
restricting the freedom of its users, some of which are in the US.

But it's also clear that TikTok is under the control of the CCP, at least to
the extent the CCP wants that to be the case at any given time.

------
ojbyrne
Perhaps I'm overly cynical but this doesn't feel like some semi-well reasoned
policy based upon control of the app by the Chinese government as much as
"they embarrassed me in Tulsa, I want them gone."

------
dontcarethrow2
Sigh, very hypocritical but I guess we can't let a non-american company siphon
our data. I wouldn't mind if we didn't keep yelling 'freedom' and 'free
market' every week into the social abyss. But but China does it too you say?
They never claimed theirs is a free market did they? Definitely solidifying
for me, banning social media apps LMAO! Their minds are only for our feed no?
Good proof that we are easily manipulated by feeds. Why not educate for better
content consumption? Oh because then we will lose our own influence. So lets
remain dumb and stare at screens only approved by our great western lords.
Pathetic IC, pathetic.

------
hsnewman
Fascism is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized
by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, as well as strong
regimentation of society and of the economy. What could this president argue
that he has done that doesn't characterize as the above?

~~~
mc32
Communism and fascism are alike. One has an international perspective, one has
a national perspective, but the politics and control are very similar. They
both exert control over the economy and culture. Interestingly, Lenin was more
internationalist than Stalin. People don’t like hearing this because some
still think communism is redeemable despite all evidence to the contrary.

~~~
crowbahr
China isn't Communist though. They're a socialist leaning capitalist state
with single party authoritarian rule participating in ethnic cleansing.

That's fascist.

~~~
mc32
China is a hybrid. Their roots lay in communism, but thru also draw heavily
from Confucianism when convenient. Related to the last point, they do not
share the roots of western philosophy, but rather eastern which makes
comparisons difficult. That said, they claim to be die hard communists with
Chinese values, as they put it.

I find it interesting that if someone on the right calls themselves
capitalists or whatever, that’s taken at face value, but if someone calls
themselves communists but they have some accompanying unpleasant
characteristics it automatically disqualifies them as being true communists.

Their economic system is state sponsored capitalism but their government and
everything else is communist.

------
quotz
This should be a starting point for a tit-for-tat game where for every western
company China bans, the West does the same. And for every stolen IP, we do the
same

~~~
xvector
Yes, let’s turn ourselves into an authoritarian regime banning media and
information outlets we don’t like!

------
praveen9920
With all the threats the company is receiving, any company buying it out might
be getting it at give away price. Could this be considered hostile take over?

------
stunt
This is exactly the kind of power that you don't want any government to have.
I'm sure we will continue to see more of this happening in the future.

------
Justsignedup
This should be through legislative action not the word of an idiot.

That's the travesty. Personally I'm okay with banning tiktok but not this way.
The way matters.

------
resters
The headline should be “US launches great firewall”

------
Charlie_26
Can some explain to a layman what China has to gain from millions of Tiktok
users data? I just don't get it. Emails and passwords?

------
dreamcompiler
How long would it take for a US company to create a TikTok clone? Are there
any moats here? Any IP or other barriers to entry?

~~~
mdorazio
TikTok itself is basically a clone of Vine, which dates back to 2013. The
barrier to entry is that China (either Chinese investors or the Chinese
government through various puppets depending who you ask) sank a ridiculous
amount of money into marketing and attracting users to get it off the ground,
and also that it enjoyed a local monopoly in China because similar US apps are
banned. There's nothing particularly unique about the tech itself.

------
fallingfrog
Well there’s a long history of authoritarians banning social media platforms
in order to silence dissent.

------
known
You call it censorship. They call it protecting national security;

------
grazhero99
I'm more worried about the effect this will have on the overall public
perception of the TikTok issue than anything else.

During a time of such intense civil unrest, when people are letting strong
emotions and groupthink guide them in lieu of reason, I have a feeling this
that many will be quick to jump on a bandwagon that's unduly sympathetic to
TikTok.

I think I have a pretty good idea of how the media (both social and
mainstream) is going to portray this. They'll suddenly forget about the long
list of legitimate reasons why TikTok is majorly problematic, and present it
as being something where poor little TikTok is being unfairly targeted by big
evil xenophobic Trump.

You could make a legitimate argument for why it's unconstitutional or sets a
bad precedent for Trump to do this, but that unfortunately doesn't change the
one-dimensional way most people are gonna see this.

~~~
pldr1234
That's my fear too.

People have such short memories, and media cycles are too quick. I'm the least
fan of Trump, but this is truly one area that the US is taking a stronger
stance on than even in my own home country (which I considered more moral,
until now).

------
Sschellbach
This is just pressure to ensure Bytedance sells to Microsoft

------
spamizbad
My conspiracy theory: Silicon Valley (Facebook) couldn’t compete with TikTok
so they leaned on Trump to kill it. The fact that TikTok is a massive hotbed
of anti-Trump memes the way Facebook is pro-Trump/anti-Biden is also curious.

The national security angle is laughable because we have no such controls over
the data held by US companies. Would be trivial for a spy to pipe data out of
FAANG to the country they serve - because we have no real privacy laws at the
national level. Just look at how a 17 year old breached Twitter.

If social media apps are national security concerns then we should treat them
like we do typical defense contractors (background checked/nat security
clearance for employees, no foreign nationals on board, control foreign
investment, export limitations, etc)

~~~
dangus
My conspiracy theory is that Trump is mad about TikTok kids pranking his Tulsa
COVID-19 Death Rally.

~~~
spamizbad
No question the mere implication of that made this decision easier for him.

Don’t worry teens: theres always Reels(tm) your government-sanctioned viral
video feature!

------
dwd
I don't believe Trump's banning TikTok because of its Chinese connections.

I think this is a retalitory action because of its use to mess with his
reelection. Brad Pascale got demoted over the Tulsa debacle and this is
Trump's way to get back at the TikTok users.

While checking my facts, I noticed someone at Forbes was also thinking that
its only about Trump as usual and put together a timeline.

[https://www.forbes.com/sites/abrambrown/2020/08/01/is-
this-t...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/abrambrown/2020/08/01/is-this-the-
real-reason-why-trump-wants-to-ban-tiktok/#530a47ae4aed)

------
akersten
Under what authority?

A dozen paragraphs in the article and not one questioning whether he can
actually do this. What would such an executive action look like? An EO to
Apple and Google to de-list the app from their stores? Why should they comply?

What's he going to do when ByteDance uploads the .apk somewhere?

Sick of media treating this man like a zoo exhibit instead of the advanced
persistent threat to US democracy he is.

~~~
randomfinn
> What's he going to do when ByteDance uploads the .apk somewhere?

I don't think most Android users know how to install an apk, and as far as I
know a similar distribution model is not possible on iOS.

~~~
whoisjuan
It wouldn’t matter. To make it effective the FCC would likely ask all the ISPs
and Carriers to block TikTok IPs at the network level.

~~~
akersten
Have US ISPs ever been asked/told to block IPs (or even DNS) before? I don't
think it's something the FCC could do, especially since they've abdicated most
of their authority over the internet to the FTC. Even still, I doubt they have
the authority to do it or the means to impose penalties for noncompliance.

Even if they could - what is a TikTok IP? I'm confident their US endpoints are
AWS or Google Cloud - good luck blocking those.

~~~
whoisjuan
I’m pretty sure that at TikTok level you need operate with a VPC and have your
own range of IPs.

Also ISPs and Mobile Carriers have their own blocking and network redirection
methods, like url filtering with transparent proxies, that are used to re-lane
traffic based on bandwidth usage. a.k.a putting Netflix on the slow lane

------
thinkloop
> Trump’s comments come as it was reported Friday that Microsoft has held
> talks to buy the TikTok video-sharing mobile app from Chinese owner
> ByteDance.

He's ensuring msft can get them at a good price. Trump is very aware of the
power of signaling whether it pans out or not.

------
bigpumpkin
Let's discuss a technical matter.

What's the best VPN to get around this ban?

~~~
tanilama
Without US creators TikTok will be lifeless for US market. The creators will
leave nevertheless if majority of the audience can't be reached

So no. VPN won't work

~~~
floatboth
Well.. maybe. On the other hand, when Russian gov tried to ban Telegram, it
only got _more_ popular, nobody stopped posting, even government officials
continued to use it, grocery chains continued to advertise their support bots,
grandparents were asking young people to configure proxies on their phones…
the ban was a colossal failure and recently it was unbanned.

A smart business can use this kind of ban for a PR advantage, they can make
their app into a symbol of resistance.

------
citrus1330
good riddance

~~~
xvector
I’m not sure I’d call getting rid of our first amendment rights a “good
riddance.”

~~~
citrus1330
It’s an app that China created to spy on and promote degeneracy in other
countries

------
bookmarkable
They should change the name of the app. The kids would figure it out in 10
minutes and reinstall. Trump would take a couple years to sort that one out.

------
quantum_state
This is an outrageous violation of the rights of people here. We should also
wake up and be against this kind of behavior of the government ... first it
raised import tax to make things more expensive for us, then it ban apps we
can use on our own phone ... all in the fake name of national security, etc.,
this is exactly a communist government would do! Wake up folks and stand up
against!

------
husamia
Why not make a Trump channel to reach young minds to vote.

------
jtdev
Zoom should be next.

------
softwaredoug
OK is this legitimately happening? Or is it something Trump randomly spouted
out to a reporter?

~~~
Markoff
does it really matter? if they run polls showing public support they can go
with it whoever's idea is it

------
mytailorisrich
This is not about TikTok. This is about Trump being desperate.

------
Leary
When Trump said he was gonna build a wall, I didn't know it was gonna be a
great fire wall.

------
YarickR2
This seals Trump's fate at elections. Young voters will dump him on a blink of
an eye

~~~
busymom0
Most of Tiktok users aren’t of voting age.

~~~
mark2996
60% are over 18. Granted 18-25 year olds don't vote.

------
akoncius
TikTok should be banned everywhere, it’s crap app

~~~
MperorM
Thanks for the insightful comment.

------
knolax
It's nice to see the HN crowd drop their facade of caring about freedom.

------
jiggawatts
And rightly so. Keep banning their apps and keep banning their web sites.

 _They do it to us_.

I think it's absurd that there's an Azure and an Azure China. There's a drop-
down list where I can pick Australia South East, South India, Japan West,
Korea Central... but not China anything.

Chinese citizens are perfectly entitled to spin up a web server in Azure, or
AWS, or GCP, any time, any country where they have data centres.

But.. oh no, _we_ non-Chinese-citizens without a permanent address in China
aren't allowed to have the reciprocal ability to create a web server in their
country. That might step on the CCP's toes. It might spread dangerous
information like _democracy!_ It might compete with their government-run
businesses. They _might not get their beak wet_ , you see, and that's a
_problem_. No can do. Gotta play the game, take part in the corruption, or no
website for you.

Trump talks a lot of talk, but if he really wanted a "fair trade deal", he
should just cut them off completely from the Internet. Fuck the great
firewall. Fuck dragging people off to "reeducation camps" because they posted
the wrong thing online. Fuck banned phrases like Winnie the Pooh.

We should all teach these people a lesson: You can't have it both ways. You
can't have censorship _and_ profit off of _our_ freedoms. Pick one.

------
Markoff
he has my full support and should continue with WeChat/QQ to let Chinese taste
their own medicine

lived for years in China, good luck communicating with anyone outside China
legally in other way than through email and some obscure (video) call apps

------
coding123
I think the biggest thing that bugs me is that the American public didn't let
Vine grow and make money. Instead we're either banning and blocking TTok or
giving China a huge amount of money. I don't like giving China money. Ban them

~~~
softwaredoug
I am sad Vine died, but "American Public didn't let Vine grow" is not
accurate. More "Twitter couldn't figure out how to make Vine a thing"...

~~~
xnx
Like Friendster or Myspace, I think the main obstacle was being slightly too
early to market.

------
Abishek_Muthian
What are the predictions for which U.S. tech company would be banned by China
as retaliation?

My top pick is -

LinkedIn (Most other U.S. social networks are already banned in mainland China
anyways, then again LinkedIn is being used extensively by Chinese to do
Business with outside world; So I wonder whether China would dare to pull the
plug).

Or it may just ban Instagram, Snapchat in HongKong as there is no ban for such
U.S. apps in HongKong currently and that technical governance differences with
mainland is fast evaporating. But, I wonder whether banning apps in HK would
amount to appropriate retaliation in terms of market size.

~~~
creato
It's ridiculous that you even talk about retaliation in a post where you
acknowledge that anything that would be a worthy retaliation _is already
banned_!

~~~
Abishek_Muthian
I think it's ridiculous to say, China wouldn't even consider retaliation. It
has to appease its domestic audience like any other country irrespective of
the differences in governance model.

~~~
creato
Of course China is going to retaliate. That doesn't mean we shouldn't consider
that ridiculous.

~~~
Abishek_Muthian
Of course you can, but the parent didn't call that ridiculous, but me talking
about China's retaliation.

------
rydre
If there is any rule of law in the country, this should be against the
constitution.

If the US does this, they'll be losing a lot of goodwill founders from other
countries have about the US.

The US is uniquely thought of as a part of every country for business. If
you're from third world country but you'd like to do a tech business in the
US, you're free to do so without much hurdles by the government. Open
competition. No other country is like that.

This is what separated the US from the rest of countries like China. You'd
dream that in case your startup got big, you'd move to the US, and hire
quality engineers/researchers there. You'd like American protection on free
speech to protect your company. Your company would not be banned for 'hurting'
people. Rule of law. This is increasingly no longer the case.

Now the US is starting to feel like China and the EU more and more. Even if
China's economy was bigger than the US, the US would still be in a good
position because of their appearance and rule of law. When it's going to be
similar to China, why not just do business with China first altogether since
they're going to be the bigger economy? China is slowly becoming more liberal
to founders from 3rd world countries now. While America seems to not notice
this right now, China is slowly becoming more open to competition from poorer
countries. The difference is stark even compared to 5 years ago.

Maybe China might not be so much fair right now to American companies because
of a power imbalance where the US is too far ahead on certain things that they
feel like after their companies catch up, they want to allow open competition.
And they seem to progressing to this trajectory.

~~~
busymom0
Australia, India have already banned it. UK is probably next too.

How exactly is this against the constitution?

Was banning Huawei unconstitutional too?

~~~
billfruit
Australia has not banned it.

India has banned it through possible dubious legal means wouldn't pass muster
in most western countries, which I think ByteDance expects will be lifted
sometime in the future, since they haven't gone to court over it, and
seemingly engaging in some sort of dialogue with the government over it. India
had earlier banned it for sometime over allegations of 'pornography', but that
was lifted.

