
Secret Documents: NSA monitored 500 million connections in Germany - susi22
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiegel.de%2Fnetzwelt%2Fnetzpolitik%2Fnsa-ueberwacht-500-millionen-verbindungen-in-deutschland-a-908517.html
======
susi22
Original (this is on the front page of Spiegel today):

[http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/netzpolitik/nsa-
ueberwacht-50...](http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/netzpolitik/nsa-
ueberwacht-500-millionen-verbindungen-in-deutschland-a-908517.html)

This was also posted yesterday (was on yesterday's front page of Spiegel):

[http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/netzpolitik/nsa-hat-wanzen-
in...](http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/netzpolitik/nsa-hat-wanzen-in-eu-
gebaeuden-installiert-a-908515.html)

Article says that the NSA used bugs to spy on EU offices.

Both articles, the comments of SPON (SPiegel ONline): Germans are pissed (We
take privacy serious [1]). They're expecting the EU and chancellor Merkel to
do something or she's going to have a really tough time being re-elected in
the fall.

Thers is way more comments on this article than many other front page
articles. From experience they usually accumulate around 50-100 comments. This
article has more than 650 as of now. People are definitely not amused.

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Street_View_privacy_conc...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Street_View_privacy_concerns#Germany)

~~~
NonEUCitizen
Has there been polling as to whether support for German Pirate Party has
increased?

~~~
aluhut
They don't get the media attention (if they are doing something at all). My
biggest fear is that the Liberals (FDP) gain votes through this...

~~~
JulienSchmidt
Why would the FDP profit from this? AFAIK they never positioned themselves in
favor of privacy.

I think the green party (Bündnis 90 / Die Grüne) will profit considerably more
from this. They are know promoters of privacy and personal rights. "Die Linke"
could also profit from this.

~~~
bayesianhorse
The liberals are very vocal about privacy and interfering of the state in the
people's affairs. They just don't do a very good job making people aware of
these positions...

~~~
Semaphor
Or fighting for those positions.

~~~
cygx
Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger has been pretty consistent, though.

If it weren't for their neo-liberal/laissez-faire approach to economics, I'd
consider voting for them...

~~~
Semaphor
SLS usually does. But to me it always seems like she is rather alone in her
party. And even she had some slip ups. If the FDP were a liberal party they'd
never ally with the CDU as they are probably the most anti-liberal party we
have.

------
vidarh
That headline is blatant editorialising and whether or not you consider what
the NSA is apparently doing as an indication they view Germany as an enemy,
the text of the article does not in any way support that the NSA itself sees
it that way.

(in case it is modified, this is the headline as of writing: "NSA: Germany
considered an enemy. Intercepting 500mill messages per month")

~~~
susi22
"Aus einer vertraulichen Klassifizierung geht hervor, dass die NSA die
Bundesrepublik zwar als Partner, zugleich aber auch als Angriffsziel
betrachtet"

... sees Germany as a "military target".

You're right, I should've used "military target" instead of enemy

~~~
_stephan
"Angriffsziel" in general is not synonymous with "military target". I'd
translate it simply as "target".

~~~
onli
That would be wrong. Target is simply Ziel. Angriffsziel is attack target
which has a military connotation. The translation is sound in that regard,
though the real headline indeed is only "secret documents: NSA monitors 500
million connections in germany".

~~~
Vivtek
Ziel is literally a target, but in truth it translates as "destination".
"Angriffsziel" could be translated as "target" in this sense, so Stephan is
not _wrong_ \- but perhaps soft-pedaling a little. Where you're right is that
"Angriff" ("attack") makes "Angriffsziel" sufficiently explicit in its
connotation of a military target. I'd consider "target of attack" in that
"Angriff" doesn't necessarily connote a military attack, but could also imply,
say, a hacking attack.

Maybe "country of interest"?

~~~
onli
Ziel is both, it can mean target and destination. In that case, it is more of
a target (attack destination? na, the NSA is not currently in an airplane
flying into battle).

> Maybe "country of interest"?

Yeah maybe, but that sounds a bit harmless, doesn't it?

~~~
Vivtek
It does sound harmless, which is why it's the Orwell-approved nomenclature. In
fifty years it won't sound at all harmless, and there will be a new euphemism.

"Attack destination" made me smile. The English word destination doesn't work
like that, but _maybe it should_.

------
mtgx
This would be a good opportunity for Germany/EU to give Snowden asylum, if
only to show US that they screwed up so much, it's EU itself, their ally, who
will give him asylum.

~~~
NonEUCitizen
During Kim Dotcom coverage, some news articles mentioned that Germany does not
extradite German citizens. Any chance the Bundestag can grant Snowden German
citizenship?

~~~
tomjen3
I Denmark anybody can be granted citizenship, as long as it is passed as an
act of parliament. Application isn't technically necessary.

That said, we do extradite citizens, so don't come here.

------
weinzierl
"A confidential classification shows that the NSA considered the Federal
Republic does as a partner, but also as an attack target. Thus, Germany is one
of the so-called third-class partners. Specifically excluded from espionage
attacks are Canada, Australia, Britain and New Zealand, which are performed as
a second category. "We can attack the signals of most foreign partner third
class - and to do so," it said in a presentation."

~~~
3825
I find it interesting that the set of five countries: UK, US, Canada,
Australia, and New Zealand. I'd like to know how the US came up with this
list. Is it because we speak the same language? Is it because we share the
same heritage? Where does this leave France? What did France do to us that we
need to spy on them?

To gain some perspective here, imagine this scenario where Germany was in the
US' position and it makes a list of countries: Austria, Belgium, Luxembourg,
and Switzerland as nations to exclude from espionage attacks. Imagine that we
are in a military alliance with them (NATO) and Germany has military bases
spread across the US.

Would that not make you feel uneasy to suddenly learn one day that not only
you are a possible military target but also that you are an active espionage
target? How can you trust someone who does not trust you and feels the need to
spy on everything you do and every word you say?

~~~
mpyne
> I find it interesting that the set of five countries: UK, US, Canada,
> Australia, and New Zealand. I'd like to know how the US came up with this
> list. Is it because we speak the same language?

These are the "Five Eyes" countries and have been closely linked for national
intelligence since World War II. The U.S. will monitor literally everyone else
that it can, and has done so since WWII proved how useful national security
intelligence is for toward national security.

For years you've been able to Google "In God We Trust; All Others We Monitor"
and find various intelligence community posters, unit patches, etc.

The leak to SPON helps confirm that with numbers. But Germany's leaders have
undoubtedly known it was going on, just as France's, Russia's, etc.

------
ck2
War on terror my a∗∗

It's a "spy-on-everyone including our own citizens under whatever excuse we
can get away with".

------
jakub_g
BTW if someone wants non-google-translated reads, Spiegel has international
version in English. Some links:

[http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/nsa-spied-on-
euro...](http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/nsa-spied-on-european-
union-offices-a-908590.html)

[http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/jakob-
augstein-d...](http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/jakob-augstein-
data-spying-programs-threaten-german-security-a-907577.html)

[http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/eu-officials-
furi...](http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/eu-officials-furious-at-
nsa-spying-in-brussels-and-germany-a-908614.html)

------
susi22
Little update at:

[http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/steinbrueck-
forder...](http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/steinbrueck-fordert-von-
merkel-aufklaerung-ueber-nsa-ueberwachung-a-908611.html)

Politicians of all major parties are pressuring chancellor Merkel to react.
One party is proposing to question the American ambassador.

------
norswap
Interesting that Germany seems to be the only place where there is real
outrage over the situation. Go Germany.

~~~
dcc1
Germans still have a recent experience of a surveillance+police state

------
beedogs
And this is how the US treats its "allies".

I can see this having far-reaching consequences in international relations,
all of them negative, for America.

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
Except that most of these nations are willing participants in the spying
programs. They may make noises to try and pacify the electorate, but I doubt
the governments are interested in changing much.

~~~
abraininavat
People keep saying this. A democratic nation derives its power from its
people. These nations are not willing participants in the spying program. What
you mean is that their elected representatives have sold out their country.

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
>What you mean is that their elected representatives have sold out their
country.

Yes.

------
flyinglizard
In light of this, EU countries should have come forward and offer an asylum
for Snowden. I'm sure there could be some legal way to do so, given the
hostility of US intelligence.

Not that I'm not one bit surprised by any of this. Every government with the
technical capability to spy, does so. On allies, on enemies and on civilians;
everyone is a fair target. NSA was just caught red handed.

------
julianpye
Don't forget that the 9/11 attacks were planned out of Hamburg and that some
of the WTC bombers of 1993 were living and captured in Germany.

~~~
glitchdout
How is that even relevant? How does that justify the interception of 500
million messages per month?

~~~
julianpye
It simply shows that there had been ongoing planning activities by terrorist
cells in Germany.

~~~
PavlovsCat
That comment simply shows that while the lights may be on, there is nobody
home.

~~~
julianpye
Why the downvote? The cell planned and coordinated with AQ while they were
living in Germany and the BND did not detect their activities. Since then the
US intensified their activities in Germany. I am not saying this is fair for
Germany or not, but it's simply a logical conclusion from the US point of view
in light of activities such as the patriot act and the creation of the DoHS.

~~~
PavlovsCat
I did not downvote you, only verbally if you will. But I will elaborate, to me
it sounded as if you were saying that the NSA is only ever going after
terrorists [whatever that even means, considering activists also seem to fall
under that umbrella], so no matter what they do, it must be required to fight
terrorism. By definition. [that's a great way to create fiscal black holes,
but rather shoddy reasoning]

So why was COINTELPRO not required to keep the US from being destroyed by,
uhh, black supremacists? The CIA did it, it's concerned with "criminals",
that's in the name -- good enough, no?

 _The cell planned and coordinated with AQ while they were living in Germany
and the BND did not detect their activities._

Yes, and as I said elsewhere, I can totally see why they wouldn't leave
anything serious that could possibly be a threat to the US to German
intelligence. But I still don't see how 500 million messages _per month_ could
figure into this, unless they are spying on everyone who knows someone who
knows someone who knows someone who knows someone who visited a jihadist
website...?

If guessing how much it costs to wash all windows in Seattle is a normal job
interview question for some, maybe they can help? I wouldn't even know where
to begin, myself. But 500 million seems like a lot no matter how I look at it.

 _Since then the US intensified their activities in Germany._

Oh, so they "intensified it", and that explains everything? 500 million
messages, or 500 billion, who cares?

To me that sounds like chocolate rations are up 5%. And I don't mean you,
either: without anything to go by, no solid ground to stand on, both of us are
pretty much guessing. You inherently trust, I inherently distrust, but I can't
see a way for us to find out who the NSA is spying on and why. But even just
the acceptance of that annoys me :/

~~~
julianpye
I personally find it problematic that such an infrastructure is set up,
because it can be used for industrial espionage (which is also a matter of
national security). So anyway, I don't trust :) But my point was just that if
the NSA has these surveillance programs all over the world, it should not
surprise Germany that they are under stronger observation by them than for
example the UK, which operates a CCTV surveillance state and shares all its
data with the US.

------
weinzierl
"Germany is similarly strong monitored such as China, Iraq or Saudi Arabia"

~~~
flexie
There could be many different explanations for that:

1: US foreign intelligence is incompetent. Viewing Germany or France as a
military threat to America in 2013 is just nonsense.

2: The US uses its foreign intelligence to gain competitive advantages in
businesses. I can't help wondering what kind of information flows the other
way, i.e. from US government to US businesses, now that so many US companies
have readily granted access to user data to the US government.

3: The US targets Germany and other European countries because it's easy to
spy on us. More American government agents know German or French than Arab or
Chinese, and a bigger portion of Europeans have internet connection and we
host more data in the Cloud than the Chinese or Iraqi population, especially
we host more with the American companies that NSA has direct access to.

~~~
weinzierl
My bet is mostly 2 and I have a 4.

4: Germany has more internet traffic than other european countries and
therefore the absolute number of monitored connections is higher in Germany
than in the other countries.

I don't have hard numbers to back up 4., but

\- Frankfurt DECIX overtook Amsterdam as the largest exchange

\- Internet Census 2012 [1], Germany lights up like a Christmas tree, you can
almost see the German borders

\- Broadband coverage is fairly good [2]

[1]
[http://internetcensus2012.bitbucket.org/images.html](http://internetcensus2012.bitbucket.org/images.html)

[2] [http://point-topic.com/wp-
content/uploads/2012/12/Studyonbro...](http://point-topic.com/wp-
content/uploads/2012/12/Studyonbroadbandcoverage-1.pdf)

------
mathieuh
Yes it's terrible, but I'm amazed that people are surprised at all this NSA
stuff. Look at America's history, it's been a global hegemon since the 1940s.
I don't think they're likely to stop any time soon.

~~~
ExpiredLink
> _I 'm amazed that people are surprised at all this NSA stuff_

Me too. People who could put two and two together knew what Snowden 'leaked'
to the mass media.

~~~
tomjen3
Most people cannot put two and two together.

------
syjer
So I guess us, the innocent people, are collateral damage in the interception
business?

These terrorist cell must be quite chatty if they intercept 500M messages per
month.

------
froh42
I am so pissed about this. Born in 1969 I've been growing up in a Germany
where we viewed the U.S. of America as a friend. An example in freedom and
democracy where we have had failings of our own.

Now it turns out our friend betrayed us. It views us as the enemy. Everything
imagined as a paranoid bad joke is true.

But the worst of all: In the USA there is no outcry. The people don't even
care about this. Thus: We are not seen as friends.

Greatly done, USA. From now on you are alone. Fuck yourself.

------
e3pi
ex-NSA off-grid Edward(!) `Brill' Lyle, (aka `Harry `The Call' Caul' The
Conversation (film) 1972 (~prequel)) in Enemy of the State (film) 1998
(~sequel), teaches us a way to get reins on NSA's wild horses is to bug(1) and
wiretap Clapper's and Kieth Alexander's homes. In addition to heroic(martyr?)
whistleblowers, the world needs angry and experienced curmudgeon tradecraft
operatives:

(1) "...will find them and have the NSA start an investigation. Lyle also
deposits $140,000 into _______'s bank account to make it appear that he is
taking bribes.

------
chj
Seriously, what has Germany done to harm America after the war?

~~~
wintersFright
They are a strong component of the European Union which is designed to act as
a large trading block and compete with the US. The Euro is a competitor to the
US Dollar. As the Euro displaces the USD throug out Europe, the US loses more
of its "exorbitant Privilege" in being able to print money and export the
inflation to the rest of the world.

------
lttlrck
Its the government equivalent of Angies List/beenverified.com.

------
spitx
This has got to be

1) a decoy outfit whose entire purpose is meant to deflect criticism from
China and Russia - who are in all likelihood the biggest receiving parties of
American intelligence attention - which often complain about America's far-
flung surveillance activities.

2) a conventional operation, by the NSA, involving "listening station"
activities for the entire European region ( like at RAF Menwith Hill in the UK
)that listens to chatter and helps thwart terrorist threats in conjunction
with mainland intelligence agencies.

3) some other unknown listening operation that keeps tabs on primarily
homegrown threats from militant Islamists and converts to Islam, in Germany.

a. CIA is said to have recruited Danish agent (and convert to Islam) Morten
Storm to find a bride for radical anti-American cleric Anwar al-Awlaki.
Croatian Muslim convert 'Aminah' \- born Irena Horek - was recruited on
Facebook by Morten Storm who claims he worked with the CIA to infiltrate al-
Qaeda and became a matchmaker to the terrorists. )

[http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/12/31/article-2255280-16...](http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/12/31/article-2255280-16B3C4D2000005DC-792_634x351.jpg)

[http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/12/31/article-2255280-16...](http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/12/31/article-2255280-16B3C730000005DC-13_634x314.jpg)

[http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/12/31/article-2255280-16...](http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/12/31/article-2255280-16B3C4E6000005DC-801_634x399.jpg)

b. The members of the Hamburg cell were the key operatives in the 9/11
attacks. Around 4.3 million Muslims live in Germany, one of the larger
compositions in Europe (5.4% of the population) or in any Western nation.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg_cell](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg_cell)

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Germany](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Germany)

Source:

[http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50137988n](http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50137988n)

[http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/20/world/middleeast/danes-
wil...](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/20/world/middleeast/danes-wild-tale-of-
ruse-to-find-anwar-al-awlaki.html?pagewanted=all)

Edit: Formatting

------
jgreen10
What have they ever done to deserve that?

</sarcasm>

~~~
lispm
Here are some reasons:

* Germany was at the frontline in the cold war. So Germany is traditionally both a target and a host of US spy activities.

* Germany hosts important US military facilities: US nuclear bombs, US central commands for Europe and Africa, military airports, military logistics, military hospitals.

* Germany was reunited with a communist part, which was under the influence of the soviet union. Thus it hosts a lot of former communists, former Stasi (East German State security, ...), a lot of KGB contacts, etc.

* from Germany it is easy to spy on East Europe

* Germany has a successful industry which is a great target. Germany has about 1500 so-called hidden champions, SMEs active in (often high-tech) niche markets and dominating them. Germany has SAP, one of the largest software companies world-wide, whose software is used at the core of the business of most of the large companies world-wide.

* Germany is a part of the EU, something which the US likes to understand and influence

* Germany has no direct border controls to neighbor countries, so there is a lot of illegal immigration to Germany, which makes it interesting for the US

* Germany is very active in high-tech and especially the Internet. Germany hosts one of the most important Internet exchange nodes.

* Germany has deep trade and diplomatic relations with Russia and China.

* Germany hosts some international relevant institutions, above all the European Central Bank.

* Germany has a relatively large military industry and exports military goods (tanks, airplanes, submarines, ships, satellites, ...).

* Germany has active left and green parties. Suspicious!

Plus Germany lost WWII and had to give up rights, some of them the US still
has - so it may be still legal for the US to spy in Germany.

------
popee
It's all clear now, prism is German project. There are also theories that NSA
could potentially be German project also. Nazis.

