
Apple TV 4K brings home the magic of cinema with 4K and HDR - runesoerensen
https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2017/09/apple-tv-4k-brings-home-the-magic-of-cinema-with-4k-and-hdr/
======
freedomben
I'm generally not an Apple person, so take my opinion with a grain of salt,
but I'm just that not that excited for anything they are doing. It feels way
behind Google Home and Amazon.

~~~
ctrl-j
> It feels way behind Google Home and Amazon.

Between Apple, Google, Amazon, and Microsoft - Apple is the only one I would
invite into my home to listen to my activities. Perhaps it's just marketing,
but the other three have not done anything to earn my trust. Apple at least
_appears_ to be concerned about my privacy.

~~~
mmanfrin
I know Amazon's intentions and their profit motive: to get me to buy things.
This makes me okay with an Alexa in my home. Google is murkier, but I feel
assuaged a bit because they have -- hands down -- the best 'knowledge engine'
for a speaker.

Microsoft will never, ever have a live mic in my home. I have done everything
I can find to neuter any background listening my Win10 PC can do.

Apple wins on the privacy front, but they have neither the broad knowledge
available that Google does nor the 2 years of experience that Amazon does.

~~~
freedomben
I feel completely the same way. I have appreciated the control Google has
given us now as well with being able to manage some of the data stored on us.
I know they see _everything_ I do, but between the well-working product and
~illusion of~ control, they have me. On the other hand, it will take a lot for
me to trust Microsoft again.

------
berberous
$179? Unlike the iPhone and Macbook, I think it's really hard to argue the
Apple TV is better than its much lower cost competitors.

~~~
Moto7451
It doesn't have to be better, just on par. The reason to buy one is because
you have a 4K TV and you are already buying TV/Movie content from Apple, use
Airplay, Apple Music, etc. It's a really easy experience v.s. juggling
multiple providers and TV sticks.

Likewise, if you're already deep into Google territory and are buying content
from Google Play Music/Videos, YouTube RED, have an Android phone, etc - a
Chromecast is the obvious choice since that all works seamlessly in that
environment.

~~~
dublinben
Who is still buying/renting movies from Apple iTunes anymore? Their share of
the market has fallen in half in recent years. [0] The better experience, as
demonstrated by market success, is provided by cross-platform networks like
Amazon and Comcast.

[0] [http://appleinsider.com/articles/17/07/09/apple-itunes-
video...](http://appleinsider.com/articles/17/07/09/apple-itunes-video-sales-
and-rentals-reportedly-in-free-fall-amidst-competition-from-amazon-comcast)

------
fredsted
The last generation should've had 4K. Way overdue.

~~~
ashark
What percentage of TVs in the wild, even among Apple buyers, were 4K at the
time? What percentage of streamed content on 4K-supporting devices was 4K?
Even a small price increase might have made it a bad idea for a product
intended for the general (even the general potentially-Apple-buying) market.

~~~
fredsted
At the time (released in sept 2015) 4K TVs were actually generally available:
[https://www.avforums.com/article/best-4k-ultra-hd-
tvs-2014.1...](https://www.avforums.com/article/best-4k-ultra-hd-
tvs-2014.10664) and Netflix already supported 4K videos. Youtube had it years
before that.

Apple has always been on the forefront of technology, with things like Retina
displays, long before other vendors. I think they should've been there with 4K
too.

~~~
slededit
> Apple has always been on the forefront of technology, with things like
> Retina displays, long before other vendors. I think they should've been
> there with 4K too.

They used to be. That is generally untrue for the last 5 or so years with only
minor exceptions (mostly limited to the iPhone).

------
ProfessorLayton
I've been pretty happy with my current Apple TV, and am moderately tempted to
upgrade to ATV 4K. My 4k TV has had no 4k devices connected to it since I got
it last year.

The biggest drawback is that damn glass remote. I dropped it on my hardwood
floor and now it has a rather large chip in it. Thankfully its not on the
touch surface.

My biggest annoyance UX-wise is that the touchpad button takes input _without_
capacitance on the touchpad. This means I'm inadvertently pausing videos all
the time when the remote is between my couch cushions. This is completely
baffling, since this should be a solved problem, my MBP's touchpad doesn't
accept clicks without capacitance.

------
Animats
There are rows of 4K TVs at Costco and WalMart. Apple is late to the party.

~~~
nsxwolf
How many people are actually watching 4K? I only have a 1TB data cap. I come
dangerously close to it every month, and that's with all 1080P or less.

I wonder how many people hit their caps, switch down to 1080P, and realize
they can't tell the difference from the couch anyway.

~~~
ashark
> I wonder how many people hit their caps, switch down to 1080P, and realize
> they can't tell the difference from the couch anyway.

I have to stand closer than ~6ft away from my now-considered-tiny 42" 1080p TV
to tell the difference between 720p and 1080p. At my couch's distance of ~12ft
I don't notice the difference between DVD quality and 1080p with most content.
According to an online calculator that confirms those numbers so I think it's
probably somewhat reliable, I'd need a 78" TV to get the benefit of 1080p at
12' away. I can't even imagine what kind of absurd seating/TV arrangement I'd
have to have for 4K to matter. Couch 4ft from a 70" screen? Something like
that?

In a monitor, yeah, bring on the extra pixels. In a TV though? Why?

~~~
Animats
Movie video in ultra-high resolution isn't that interesting because it's
composed by humans. You're being told where to look. Watching 2160p video on a
desktop of walking or driving through interesting places with a stabilized
camera gives a real feeling of presence. You can look where you choose
(especially with spherical video) and see the detail. [1] (Shenzhen) [2]
(Harajuku)

[1] [https://youtu.be/NTcx0OHehdE?t=57](https://youtu.be/NTcx0OHehdE?t=57) [2]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiQ4YDH3g80](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiQ4YDH3g80)

~~~
ashark
Is that the kind of thing one might watch on TV (so, not a monitor) enough to
make it worth the 4K upgrade? Cables, receiver, TV, all of that. Seems like
more of a VR thing to me (though I don't have a VR rig, so what do I know). On
a TV it'd be more a novelty than an actual thing you'd sit down to watch for
minutes to hours every single week, I'd think.

------
mozumder
4K benefits will be lost without Dolby Vision or DCI-P3 TVs.

People notice color more than resolution, and right now there aren't enough
people that own high color-space TVs. They instead have crappy 4k TV and
that's going to limit the market, with people thinking that's going to be good
enough.

~~~
Sargos
HDR10 is the dominant standard and it supports that. The KS8000, arguably the
most standard/common 4K TV of the last year, doesn't even have DV support.

I'm not sure that will actually hurt them. Pretty much all TVs support HDR10.

~~~
zero_one_one
The vast majority of consumer HDR displays aren't capable of displaying the
full P3 Gamut - let alone making a proper dent on Rec. 2020.

------
pier25
And again, Apple not including a gamepad by default or offering an official
one.

Playing with the included remote is super limited so games have to be designed
with that in mind.

Game devs won't risk making a game that needs a third party accessory, so
Apple again killed all gaming potential for the Apple TV.

------
runesoerensen
The product page is up now: [https://www.apple.com/apple-
tv-4k/](https://www.apple.com/apple-tv-4k/)

~~~
ascagnel_
Sadly, no mention of if the device supports 120Hz output (even if it's only at
1080p) to avoid 3:2 pulldowns.

------
nsxwolf
Same terrible interface. Same terrible remote. But in 4K now.

~~~
darrenkopp
I use my iPhone so I don't care about the remote that much. The 4K aspect is
much more important to me because, honestly, the Android TV experience that is
included with my TV is much, much worse. It was pretty reasonable at first,
but I think an update has basically destroyed wifi stability and netflix
constantly refuses to connect.

Finally, I can use my 4K TV reliably.

~~~
nsxwolf
That's precisely why I hate the remote - because it's so much like the iPhone
app, which I also hate using. The only improvement with the remote is that you
don't have to wait eons for it to connect every time you want to pause.

I just want a clicky directional pad. Just put the Siri button on the old
remote.

I just can't believe they are doubling down on their worst reviewed product.
1.5 stars on their own site.

------
AndrewUnmuted
HDR is just another gimmick that will probably not scale into anything long-
lasting, nor anything beneficial to the consumer.

It's being used to remove all that remains of the realism and life-like
immersion of visual media in this insanely media-illiterate world. Right up
Apple's alley, actually.

EDIT: People who are downvoting me are doing so because they don't know
anything about video.

EDIT #2: I am very disappointed in the non-factual answers to my post, and
that people would choose to downvote rather than jump in with anything even
remotely accurate or helpful. These technologies are major components to the
future of the web, and people on HN best become media literate if they want to
keep their comfy jobs.

~~~
tomc1985
Isn't the whole point of HDR to make things even more lifelike and immersive?

From a technical standpoint 8-bits-per-color was never enough to display
anywhere near the full spectrum. I've also personally been peeved with the
flat, weak-ass dynamic range on most TVs and anything to add a few bits to the
stream seems like a win in my book.

Unless, somehow, this ends up stuck in a rut in the uncanny valley (or someone
wants to make the filesize argument), how is improved dynamic range a bad
thing?

~~~
AndrewUnmuted
Of course not. If you want to increase the dynamic range of color, all you
have to do is increase the sampling bit depth of the picture being captured.

HDR is a specific technique which involves cheaply processing pixels to fit a
different color curve than it was captured in. It's not lifelike, it's candy-
like.

~~~
jerf
I think you may have some technology terminology confusion. There are 4K
panels that really can display colors that are physically impossible for other
panels to display.

It is true that these systems ship with fake-o postprocessing to take
conventional content and smear them into these new colors, but that's a
stopgap, and you aren't actually obligated to use them, you know. Just like
TVs tend to ship in what I call "claw your eyes out mode" for display, but
it's the work of just a few seconds to turn them back to something sane for
any decent quality panel. (There are certainly panels that have no decent
quality setting, no matter how much you fiddle; if you care, do some research.
I do and did.)

Per what I see of your other comment, whether you like it or not, there are
standards being called "HDR" that includes true expanded gamut support:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-dynamic-
range_video#Stand...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-dynamic-
range_video#Standards)

~~~
AndrewUnmuted
No, the new standard is called "HDR10" [1] and it standardizes the use of
BT.2020.

Can we not even trust people on HN to only speak to what they know about?

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-dynamic-
range_video#HDR10](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-dynamic-
range_video#HDR10)

~~~
jsjohnst
> Can we not even trust people on HN to only speak to what they know about?

Not any more than we can trust the old curmudgeons to not beat their knowledge
into others by force I guess.

~~~
AndrewUnmuted
I'm not an old curmudgeon - I am a young guy who knows a lot about digital
media technologies and their underlying principles.

Don't trivialize my specialized knowledge by saying I'm old. The only reason
you can watch anything on youtube today is because people like me cared about
standards and best practices -- and most importantly, cared about being right
about things.

Typical "break stuff, stop reading books" mentality of engineers my age. It's
sad.

~~~
jsjohnst
"Old curmudgeon" has nothing to do with age, but attitude. You might be young,
but doesn't mean you don't have a "get off my lawn" attitude throughout this
thread.

~~~
tomc1985
That matters why?

