
Paternity leave at startups: designing a policy for new parents - jenthoven
https://www.kapwing.com/blog/paternity-leave-for-startups/
======
blagie
I look for policies like this to see how I'm likely to be treated by a company
in general.

Even more critical are terms of employment. Over the past few decades,
companies often went from a healthy relationship (long-term employment,
companies own IP in the domain of employment created on work hours) to a
rather unhealthy one (3-year stints combined with abusive terms --
overreaching non-disclosures, non-competes, IP ownership, etc., digging deeply
into my personal life).

Then there's background checks. These went from reasonable due diligence (I
got my degree and worked where I claimed) to digging into past salaries and
using those in negotiations (salaries get shared through data brokers like
Equifax, often in violation of state laws), looking at credit records, etc.

There are policies around emergencies -- what happens if a relative dies and
similar?

And there's the practical: How often do employees get legally threatened or
sued on the way out? I've now had this happen to several friends; it's
surprisingly common. In all cases, they settled on the company's terms (which
were always without merits) since litigation would have cost years of life and
hundreds of thousands of dollars.

A job is kind of like a marriage. Even if they don't effect you directly,
these are pretty good indicators of whether you're getting into a healthy or
abusive long-term relationship.

~~~
pjc50
> sued on the way out

Extraordinary - on what alleged grounds?

~~~
blagie
In one case, an employee was going to work for a startup developing a new
(completely novel) product in the same industry as former company. There was a
non-compete clause in the employment contract. It was cheaper to wait a year
before joining the startup than to litigate. I know both companies, and the
claim of competition was tangential at best.

In another case, an employee hadn't signed the current employment agreement
which was far more overreaching than the terms of employment they originally
agreed to (but which were needed for the organization to pursue its new --
somewhat sleazy -- business model).

The organization fabricated criminal allegations and told the employee they
would press charges if the employee didn't sign away their rights. That's
criminal extortion, but if such threats are verbal, it's not something you can
really prove. Best case outcome for employee was a (very public) mud throwing
match against an organization with an extensive PR/press department. A lawyer
took that one pro bono, but I think that cost that employee 3-6 months of
their life, and in the end, they gave up on their next startup too (which was,
again, in the same industry as their former employer, and difficult to do with
new terms).

Both were big organizations (ones you would have heard of, and one of which is
held in extremely high esteem as an 'ethical' organization). Both settlements
involved signing away rights to talk about those settlements.

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surfsvammel
Wow. This reminds me why I am happily living in Sweden. Government pays me and
my partner for 480 days off for every child. To split as we see fit more or
less. My employer (startup with 16 employees) tops up what the government pays
me such that end up having 90% of my normal salary.

~~~
trowawee
Yeah, American policies around this are incredibly bad. Even the nominally
"good" ones are pretty terrible compared to other developed nations.

~~~
chooseaname
Because Americans think if you have a need for this type of government
support, well you just haven't worked hard enough and you're "part of the
problem" (whatever that means).

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simulate
This is generous of Kapwing.

It's worth noting that, outside the United States and a very small number of
other countries, parental leave is usually publicly funded through taxes and
administered through social security. Companies can then augment these social
security payments.

For example, Austria, Brazil, Canada, Finland, France, Hungary, Italy,
Ireland, Mexico, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Russia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland,
and Turkey all fund parental leave through social security. Others as well.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_leave](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_leave)

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thekashifmalik
This is great!

I wonder if we can generalize this to a 'life-choice/situation' based time-off
policy. Not all employees want kids and it's weird that companies can choose
to sponsor/accommodate the choice of having kids but not the contrary.

And it's not just for the single/DINK life; some people have elderly parents
that need assistance and that can take a lot of time.

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adiusmus
I shudder to think what would happen in some places if a father actually took
paternity leave for a newborn. Probably get fired or downranked in some way
with long term advancement consequences.

Hopefully more directors do research on the matter. Maybe it could help with
that “skills shortage” they are so often complaining about.

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k3fernan
Is there any value in having different paternity vs. maternity leave or
primary vs. secondary caregiver?

Wouldn't something like X weeks paid for anyone parenting/birthing/adopting.
(i.e. a paid family leave) be a simpler design?

You could expand this over time to include caregiving for elderly people etc.
And it could support various family types (i.e single parents, adoptions,
same-sex couples, surrogates etc.)

Genuinely asking because it seems weird not to have just a simple inclusive
policy.

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dvfjsdhgfv
It's one of these huge gaps between the USA and Europe (the other two being
free or near free university education and medical care). Seriously, how worse
can it be? Oh yes, it can: holidays! From
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave_b...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave_by_country):

> Some employers offer no vacation at all. The average number of paid vacation
> days offered by private employers is 10 days after 1 year of service, 14
> days after 5 years, 17 days after 10 years, and 20 days after 20 years.

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acranox
I don’t think I’ve seen this “primary” and “secondary” caregiver distinction
before. Seems like bullshit to me.

~~~
fatnoah
Salesforce does this. I had a co-worker that took 6 months off for the birth
of his child. The distinction effectively means anyone can take the time off.
In the case the dad takes time off to be with the child, he becomes the
primary caregiver by definition.

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crasch4
Kudos to Kapwing for being attentive to their employee's family and emotional
lives. However, it's irritating that parents receive perks at the expense of
single and childfree employees (who don't get weeks of time off for _their_
families, and who are expected to cover for the parents on leave). IMHO, all
employees should get the same amount of time off, regardless of whether or not
they have children.

~~~
quotemstr
No. Having children is, well, literally the activity most essential to the
survival of society and our species itself. Of course people should get extra
time off to do it.

The problem isn't that we have too many natalist incentives. The problem is
that we don't have _enough_ of them! The replacement rate is below replacement
in general, and it's worse in cities.

If children, fine. But I don't begrudge people who do.

~~~
Sileni
That suggests that "more people" is an unmitigated good, which I don't
believe. There has never been a time when you were more able to avoid
unplanned childbirth. The number of children in foster care has been
increasing since 2013.[0]Whatever good could be done by having a child could
be done better by acknowledging some of the people already in this world and
giving them a real shot. We're all responsible for any situation that becomes
a "tragedy of the commons", and we need to start behaving like it.

[0]: [https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-
way/2017/11/30/567615510...](https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-
way/2017/11/30/567615510/number-of-american-children-in-foster-care-increases-
for-4th-consecutive-year)

~~~
quotemstr
There's nothing wrong with wanting your kids to be your own, nor with the
desire to ensure that part of you makes it to the next generation. I'm sick of
anti-humanism backlash against doing the thing that every organism ultimately
exists to do.

~~~
Sileni
Considering humans are the demonstrated reason for climate change, I'd argue
some anti-human sentiment is a bit overdue. Nature's going to be fine. Life
will recover once we're gone. It's us humans that are going to suffer because
of our humanist entitlement.

~~~
quotemstr
The idea that some environmenal metric is more important than human suffering
is bizarre and vaguely masochistic. The environment is an instrumental good
for humanity's use, not a legitimate moral object in itself. Human extinction
is a maximally bad scenario no matter how well the environment does afterwards

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jankotek
So this "perk" does not even meet legal minimum for large companies. Just hire
remotely if you want to attract top talent.

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dominotw
This is form of discrimination against older workers who get no paid leave to
care for their ageing parents.

I went through hell 5 yrs ago where I was on a death march project and had
family situation involving a parent.

I will not support any of this until they change this into a 'life situation'
leave instead of parent leave.

~~~
oh_sigh
Older people are allowed to have kids as well, and so are just as eligible for
paternity/maternity leave. Even if women are past the age of child bearing,
they can adopt children and be eligible for maternity leave.

For your situation - were you not eligible for the FMLA?

~~~
poulsbohemian
FMLA is a joke. All FMLA actually says is the company can't outright fire you
if you need up to 12 weeks to deal with family matters. The company is under
no obligation to do anything else for you and if you can't afford to take time
off without pay, well sux to be you.

~~~
oh_sigh
Depends on the state. What about the business? They hired you for a reason,
and you want them to keep paying you while you are not doing anything for
them. What if the business can't afford to pay in a state where it is
mandated? Well, sux to be them.

~~~
HelloNurse
The business also wants me to come back after leave instead of moving to a
less expensive place while looking for another job. Paid leave is an
investment.

