
Philosophy of Ghost in the Shell - MichaelAO
http://ghostintheshellphilosophy.info
======
exelius
Stand Alone Complex is actually an amazing social commentary on emergent
resistance movements among a group of marginalized people in the era of "fake
news" or "false memories". It was way ahead of its time -- and even more
relevant today than it was a decade ago.

Trump is basically the galvanizing "cult of personality" figure who was able
to connect with a population that was marginalized by both the government and
the media -- much like Hideo Kuze was to the refugees. In the case of Trump,
he energized the people, but also similar to Kuze, he can't really control
every aspect of the emergent behavior (anti-semitism in Trump's case, etc). I
would even say that it's similar to the Kuze storyline in that the "cult of
personality" figure is actually being manipulated by a foreign power
(ironically the American Empire in SAC) for their own ends.

Similar comparisons can be made with Al Qaeda, ISIS, Boko Haram, or any other
movements that start with legitimate gripes but are manipulated by false
information to different ends.

It's definitely not a new phenomenon, but SAC was amazingly prophetic about
how it would play out in an age of instant communication. It's unfortunate
that it's so difficult to approach (you won't really "get it" until your
second or third watch through) -- I don't know any other show that had
multiple episodes that were essentially philosophical lectures by the main
characters / tachikomas .

~~~
peterwwillis
While Kuze is kind of a launching point, Trump is more like one of the other
members of the Individual Eleven. He's a byproduct of a collective group that
is already spawning copycats. He's had lateral movement from social power to
personal power, and harnesses both, which other copycats simply have failed to
do so far. He's a sort of evolved organism.

I heard an example of it today in a program by the Guardian, covering the
special election in Montana. The reporter interviewed an old (80? 90?) lady,
who said this one candidate was clearly ridiculous because he had a TV ad
where he shot a television. The reporter then mentioned how the opposing
candidate - her candidate - ran an identical ad. She said they were completely
different examples. He then said she probably only thought they were different
because one of them was for the candidate she wanted, and she agreed. Another
example was when the reporter asked her why she supported Trump regardless of
his failures or scandals, and she said because he is a real, normal person.
The reporter offered that many people find him the opposite of a normal
person, and she replied that they don't know what they're talking about.

 _" Gouda notes that there is a tendency within a Stand Alone Complex for the
masses to unconsciously project their inadequacies and common desires onto a
leader."_

I think this kind of self-manipulation in order to achieve a specific goal is
essentially a form of Stand Alone Complex, in the form of thought patterns
being duplicated among a group, with no explicit intention to do so. In order
to achieve an unspoken specific social change the people follow an icon, and
do anything they need to do to continue following that icon and eventually
achieve the goal.

~~~
exelius
I dunno; I do think Trump fits the structure (with someone like Bannon acting
as Gouda in this case). Regardless of how you feel about him, he is clearly a
very charismatic person -- SAC mentions MLK and Hitler as pre-cyber examples
of people around whom a Stand Alone Complex formed, so the motives of the
person are less important than their charisma and ability to identify and
address the distributed concerns of the population.

Trump was obviously able to tap into this collective consciousness / common
desires -- a border wall is a stupid fucking idea that basically every expert
thinks is a waste of money, but is an example of the masses projecting their
inadequacies onto him (and Trump reacting in turn to give them what they
want).

------
franciscop
I think it might be appropriate to do a brief introduction for western readers
about Japanese (Shintoist+Budist) philosophy first. If you're an _old school_
manga/anime consumer you probably know a bit about it indirectly with Studio
Ghibli movies and others.

In most modern philosophy spirits are assigned to humans (with exceptions),
while in Japan everything in nature has a spirit/energy [1]. This makes the
concept of nature different between our cultures, animals even more different
so the concept of a robot is really different.

So a _Ghost in the shell_ for us westerns is kind of obvious; a robot has
nothing, it _is_ a shell by default, and you can add a human consciousness
which is just a group of thoughts like you'd add a different program. However
for the Japanese culture where everything has _vital_ energy this is not
entirely the same concept. An empty shell/robot is a void much larger than
what a robot is for us and a normal, working robot in the real world has
_something_ making it move. Heck, even "electricity" includes the word "気"
(spirit/energy).

Of course I am not good at explaining all of this and just know it because I
like learning about it. But I do think that there are important cultural
differences when watching this movie and many details are lost from a western
point of view.

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kami](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kami)

~~~
taneq
> So a Ghost in the shell for us westerns is kind of obvious; a robot has
> nothing, it is a shell by default, and you can add a human consciousness.

I don't think it's obvious at all. If you can add a human consciousness to a(n
entirely non-human-biological) robot, then that "human consciousness" is no
different in nature to the robot's software. A difference in degree,
certainly, but not of kind. Yet most westerners would claim a difference in
kind between software and a "person".

Point taken, though, about the way the film's interpretation changes depending
on the cultural mindset of the watcher. I'll do some reading. :)

~~~
franciscop
Ah sorry, I was trying to make emphasis on the part that the robot _is_ an
empty shell for us and not specially on human consciousness being easy to
swap/just software (for which I agree with you).

Edit: After thinking and reading about it, I think that is actually the
opposite in the other direction. What might shock us _is_ the concept of the
spirit being transfered, while for Shintoism that is not _such_ a shocking
concept since they are not so concerned with the afterlife and their spirit
will just join nature:

"The afterlife, and belief, are not major concerns in Shinto; the emphasis is
on fitting into this world instead of preparing for the next, and on ritual
and observance rather than on faith." \- interesting read:
[https://www.japanspecialist.co.uk/travel-tips/shinto-
buddhis...](https://www.japanspecialist.co.uk/travel-tips/shinto-buddhism/)

------
firasd
We're in an interesting cultural moment for narratives like this, between Her,
Ex Machina, GITS, Alien: Covenant, the upcoming Blade Runner 2049, and the
great TV show Westworld.

This is my favorite essay on these themes, tying together threads spanning
from ancient myths to contemporary movies: "The Robots Are Winning!"
[http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2015/06/04/robots-are-
winnin...](http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2015/06/04/robots-are-winning/)

One interesting thing I've understood when discussing GITS the anime vs the
new movie is that in the anime, Motoko embraces her cybernetic body, so the
question is: What does it mean to be human? But in the new movie, Major is the
first cybernetic body, so the question is more: Who am I? This an interesting
essay by Hideo Kojima about the differences:
[http://www.glixel.com/news/hideo-kojima-on-the-philosophy-
be...](http://www.glixel.com/news/hideo-kojima-on-the-philosophy-behind-ghost-
in-the-shell-w475805)

By the way, people into GITS might like this post we made about shots in the
movie recreated from the anime: [https://medium.com/@gitsost/a-love-letter-to-
ghost-in-the-sh...](https://medium.com/@gitsost/a-love-letter-to-ghost-in-the-
shell-how-shots-from-the-2017-movie-allude-to-the-anime-972a7dfb74e8)

~~~
Mithaldu
> people into GITS might like this post we made about shots in the movie
> recreated from the anime: [https://medium.com/@gitsost/a-love-letter-to-
> ghost-in-the-sh...](https://medium.com/@gitsost/a-love-letter-to-ghost-in-
> the-shell-how-shots-from-the-2017-movie-allude-to-the-anime-972a7dfb74e8)

I find it quite superficial to call the new movie a love letter just because a
number of stills have similar elements in them.

As an example: In the water fight scene the anime has a LOT of story-telling
with her actions being clearly based on high level moral motivations, as well
as observations of and adaption to the progression of the fight itself. Every
action taken has a reason and nuance behind it, based on who and what her
adversary is as well as the tactical situation. In the movie it's a straight-
up beat-down of an almost entirely unresponsive puppet.

~~~
canadian_voter
Indeed. Less a love letter than a cheap porn adaptation, IMHO.

As a long-time GITS fan, the new movie was a complete disappointment. It added
nothing new or interesting, and dropped almost all of the philosophical
content of the original.

If you haven't seen the original, start there. And then move on to the
sequels, the TV show, etc. if you want. But avoid this new one. None of the
individual elements (soundtrack, cinematography, etc) are the equal of the
original and as whole it is utterly lacking in style and substance.

~~~
exelius
I don't think you can do GITS as a live action movie. The amount of special
effects required to pull it off means the budget needs to be huge, but that
also means you have to "dumb down" the plot for mainstream audiences to have a
chance to recover your costs.

~~~
firasd
Well, you also can't have those lengthy expositions from the 95 anime. I think
in a good film you would show the outlines to philosophical angles about
consciousness without filling them in with so much prose. Of course GITS '17
went a bit too far in the other direction of keeping the dialog too simple,
eg. the bad guy blurting out his clearly-bad motivations. I think Westworld
achieved a good balance of throwing in monologues while keeping scenes
lively...

~~~
exelius
Yeah; that's what I meant about "dumbing down" the movie. I agree that Ghost
in the Shell in all of its iterations is heavy on exposition -- which makes it
a difficult show for audiences to get into.

I also agree about your point about Westworld -- I think Ghost in the Shell
could be pulled off as a live-action TV series because the exposition could be
spread out across a whole season. Because it often doesn't have a guaranteed
global market at the time of production, anime in general tends to be a
balance between ambition and budget -- the compromise often being "recap" or
"expositional" episodes focused on one or two characters (fewer voice actors
to worry about) and using recycled animation. I get why they do it, but it's
frustrating.

------
mirimir
I rather like Hannu Rajaniemi's take on "ghost-dubbing" among the Sobornost in
the Flower Prince trilogy. He posits that each initial individual ("Prime")
can create unlimited copies ("gogols") which may be full or edited. Although
they have individual consciousness, they're all managed by a "metaself".

There's a downside, though. The masses become gogol slaves, used basically as
appliances by the Primes.

Edit: Also, the Primes make highly numerous copies of slave gogols,
introducing random variation, and then select for performance on some task.

~~~
zxcmx
David Brin's book Kiln People is a really fun book which runs along these
lines as well.

------
yuchi
Some admin should add a [spoiler] flag to it.

Fantastic read. It’s sad such great content has no right to stay on Wikipedia,
where this article originated. (I’m not implying the rules of Wikipedia are
wrong.)

~~~
franciscop
For a story that has decades? IMO it'd be akin to a [spoiler] alert when
talking about LOTR or similar.

~~~
js2
I didn't finally watch Citizen Kane till a few years ago, and somehow I'd made
it my whole life without the end being spoiled.

I can't say the same for Soylent Green.

------
failrate
Related to this, I've been considering how we can accurately report on
incidences such as arsons or shootings without giving them a narratively
appealing context.

My naive approach was to replace "terrorist" with "some asshole", so that the
news report "Terrorists detonated a bomb" would become "some assholes
detonated a bomb". This is a joke example of a real concept. I think that our
news sources have tried to do something similar by referring to ISIS as
"Daesh", but the significance was lost on non-Arabic-speakers, and its usage
never caught on.

~~~
Dangeranger
John Oliver used this strategy effectively in his HBO coverage of the 2015
Paris Bataclan attack by calling the attackers "Unconscionable, flaming
assholes, possibly working with other fucking assholes".

Donald Trump has recently begun calling terrorists "Losers".

George W. Bush called Al Qaeda members "thugs and killers".

You are also correct that Daesh is preferred in Arabic media over the term
ISIS, and although the former is really an acronym, it is close to to the
Arabic words 'Daes', 'one who crushes something underfoot' and 'Dahes',
translated as 'one who sows discord'. Members of the group also really hate
the term being used to describe them, which helped spur it's usage.

It's a strategy that's been used for some time and has proven effective in
some cases in discouraging copycat behaviors.

------
awjr
Reading this reminds me why I was disgusted with the recent remake of Ghost in
the Shell.

The merging of minds between Kusanagi and the Puppet Master was the finalé in
the journey Kusanagi took through the film. To remove that final step from the
remake made me angry.

~~~
lee
Spoiler alert: Not only that, but making the "Puppet Master" Kusanagi's ex
boyfriend is so cringe-worthy.

------
dkarapetyan
> Gouda notes that there is a tendency within a Stand Alone Complex for the
> masses to unconsciously project their inadequacies and common desires onto a
> leader.

Sounds very familiar.

------
knightofmars
The about tag at the bottom points to a wikipedia page that was deleted but
this content also lives here:
[http://ghostintheshell.wikia.com/wiki/Philosophy](http://ghostintheshell.wikia.com/wiki/Philosophy)

~~~
MichaelAO
Thanks for the note, just added the link to the site.

~~~
waldir
It would probably make sense to also link to the deletion discussion:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletio...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Philosophy_of_Ghost_in_the_Shell)

------
justin66
That article has an extremely strange title. It links to a few philosophical
topics, like dualism, without exploring them and then gives a plot synopsis.

------
zmix
Apart from the philosophy I find it interesting to note, that the website has
all external links routed via the Web Archive, even those, which are not going
to get lost that easily, like Wikipedia's.

~~~
kayoone
since the sites content was originally a wikipedia article which got deleted,
i think this is a good choice to preserve the articles in the form they have
been linked too. Archive.org is so amazing, but it is sad that it does not
work for a lot websites nowadays.

------
SomeStupidPoint
The reading experience is really rough on mobile: huge font with weird spacing
to keep it justified.

~~~
baby
It looks really good on desktop.

I find it really annoying that we now have to design/develop for different
screensizes. The web used to be much more simpler when we were just making
1024*768 pages with <table>s

~~~
exodust
We don't need to design/develop for different screen sizes when it's just text
and a few images. The developer in this case decided to use font-size 130%
which is too big. Combined with justified text, it will be painful to read on
a small screen. Justified text is more suited to print.

~~~
MichaelAO
Thanks for the feedback. Just made font smaller.

------
flavio81
Let me guess, just as Ruby on Rails, is Ghost in the Shell a new framework for
web development using Bash?

(just kidding...)

~~~
shakna
If that's what you want there's always Bash on Balls! [0]

[0] [https://github.com/jneen/balls](https://github.com/jneen/balls)

~~~
mindcrime
I can't see any reason to favor that over COBOL on COGS[0].

[0]:
[http://www.coboloncogs.org/INDEX.HTM](http://www.coboloncogs.org/INDEX.HTM)

~~~
flavio81
Why should I work with COBOL ON COGS when I can be using a more modern
framework such as COBOL ON WHEELCHAIR?

[http://adrianzandberg.pl/cobol-on-
wheelchair/](http://adrianzandberg.pl/cobol-on-wheelchair/)

~~~
mindcrime
OMG, somebody actually invested the time to create a _real_ web framework for
COBOL!?!??? ROFLMFAO... I have to try this out now.

