
Django Girls one year later - thomasjudge
https://lwn.net/Articles/651833/
======
mozumder
The slide illustrations are brilliant. Refreshing to see that level of art
direction at a tech conference.

~~~
wyldfire
I like them too.

I was going to show this to my daughter but after reviewing the slides, I
think I'd prefer not to focus on whatever negativity/discrimination occurs in
the industry but rather the positive aspects of
encouragement/camaraderie/sorority.

It's probably appropriate for women and girls who have encountered those
setbacks but my daughter's old enough to benefit from programming but
young/naive enough not to have seen much of the frustrations cited in the
slides.

------
boxy310
Going through their website, it seems like one of the best Django tutorials
I've seen, irrespective of gender.

~~~
DarkTree
edit: I've been corrected, but will leave up for the argument's sake

I am not trying to attack you, more so just commenting on this type of
phrasing.

Wouldn't it be more effective to simple say, "Going through their website, it
seems like one of the best Django tutorials I've seen" -without the gender
comment at all?

Reading that comment, it made me think that _normally_ you consider gender
when you consider the quality of a tutorial, but in this specific incidence,
it doesn't even matter.

Just something minor to think about.

~~~
vezzy-fnord
Well, the subject in question is already explicitly gendered, so making a
remark like that isn't out of place.

~~~
DarkTree
yeah that's fair actually. I guess it would only matter if he introduced it to
the conversation. Well put.

------
joe_the_user
_The room is decorated with flowers and balloons, rather than being a "boring
classroom" and they do fun things like cupcake tasting or yoga during the
day._

I suppose that could attract a certain audience but I think a number of girls
could feel a bit uncomfortable being pigeon-holed as liking all things
"girly".

When I was in High School I would have been aghast if someone held a "guy's
programming workshop" with weight-lifting and sports-talk.

~~~
ZenoArrow
You're overthinking it. They're doing those things because they're fun things
to do. If someone gave a programming workshop and had a games room where you
could play arcade games, air hockey, shoot pool and play pinball on your
breaks, I certainly wouldn't complain. I'd even like trying yoga and cupcakes!

~~~
Udo
I agree that Joe is probably overthinking it, but at the same time, I would be
turned off to find myself at a programming event that plays up my "maleness"
by stuffing in lots of sports things ;) On the other hand, I find flowers
infinitely less annoying than football, so...

One of the deeper issues that will probably never go away for many people in
tech (no matter their gender) is the realization that completely fitting in is
unlikely to ever happen, and that maybe this is a good thing. To pick up one
of the metaphors used in the article: yes, if you're a squirrel, at first
glance it may seem that all the other creatures in the forest are completely
identical badgers - but upon further investigation it turns out they're all
aliens from thousands of different planets, each wearing badly-made badger
costumes [ _which, by the way, is also almost exactly the narrative of the
original presentation - just watched it_ ].

~~~
ZenoArrow
> "I agree that Joe is probably overthinking it, but at the same time, I would
> be turned off to find myself at a programming event that plays up my
> "maleness" by stuffing in lots of sports things ;) On the other hand, I find
> flowers infinitely less annoying than football, so..."

The issue isn't really the things, but in feigning interest in the things that
don't interest you. You don't have to pretend to like something, but at the
same time you can still find ways to share time with those that do. You cannot
design an event which is all things to all people, the answer to being
inclusionary is not to be dull, instead it's about inspiring people, and you
might as well have some fun trying to do it.

------
wvh
I like the way they have written the story without sounding overly accusing.
I'm a hardcore coder and security guy, but beyond technical skills I don't
really fit into typical IT environments and often plan to leave the business
altogether and do something completely different.

There are a lot of men too who find the mono-culture in the industry hard and
feel like outsiders. I'm not sure that's helpful to women feeling isolated;
but we can hope the industry slowly recognises the problem and learns to
attract a more diverse group of people with a more diverse set of skills that
will enable a more diverse set of solutions.

Take the graphics in the presentation: in my last project, we struggled (and
failed) to find anybody with both technical and artistic skills. People with
artistic skills rarely show up for technical jobs it seems, and that's a pity.

------
belorn
In every work environment which has an clear gender imbalance we see the same
stories of the minority group being pushed out by the majority group. The
minority group feel pressured to be more majority-like to fit in, receive
comments like "you are good for a minority person", and feel a social
expectancy to be more like the majority group. Those who don't behave
correctly report of being silenced and treated in a very hostile way and
normally end up leaving the profession shortly afterward. This kind of gender
inequality is then seen in 90% of all profession (Swedish statistics from SCB
in 2010) where the top 3 have less than 1% of a minority gender.

When reading this kind article I wonder how useful it is to pitch it as a
fight between badgers and squirrels. 87% of squirrels work in a profession
hostile to badgers, and 88% of badgers work in a profession hostile to
squirrels. Having been personally in both environments once, even if it was a
very short time, I can't help to see a big lack of common understanding of
each sides plight when they are a minority.

~~~
tomp
I find it baffling everytime someone refers to men and women as separate
groups. What's the point of equality then if we're still so different?

(In my experience, if you want to talk about "groups" in programming
companies, it's mostly geeks vs. non-geeks, with men and women in both
groups.)

~~~
robertfw
It's easy to say that we're all one group if you're in the dominant group...

~~~
tomp
I hope you're not serious. I'm a geek, mind and body. Most of my life (school,
high school, sports, socializing, university) I was part of the marginalized,
made fun of, or outright abused groups. Incidentally, many women had it a lot
better that I (they were popular, attractive, outgoing, talkative, ...).

Just because some of us (programmers) managed to unexpectedly strike gold (in
this economy) doesn't make us "dominant" in most areas of life.

~~~
bayesianhorse
It's not about "dominance in most areas of life" but rather in a team of
developers or communities of developers.

Programming is still lucrative enough for most people that they chose this
over the job they were originally trained for. That is one of the reasons (and
not the only one) women want to be part of such groups, and there they are the
minority.

Also my perception is not that development teams are necessarily "dominated"
by nerds. It's a cliche which is often wrong.

------
marincounty
I've been waiting for good tutorials for to many years. I come from the 500
page computer phone books! I would go to B & N--and literally pick up a phone
book--filled with confusion/pontification/useless diagrams/filler? I would
pick these books up, and wonder "Who reads these?"

At first, I blamed the Editors.(I just figured the person/persons didn't
understand the material, and only corrected serious grammatical errors?)

As years went by, books/tutorials became better, but even the better ones Left
Out Steps? They just expected me to know what they are poorly writing about?
If the information was free--fine? It bothered me when I paid $39.99 for a
poorly written technical manual. (I will pay for thin books! I've never picked
up a book, and felt weight equated with cost. The thinner the better?)

I went through Djanjo Girls tutorial and with every page--it felt good. It was
to the point. It didn't leave out steps. Yes, I will repeat; it didn't leave
out steps! It didn't go off on tangents.

I wish them well. To any future writers out there; less is more. I've thought
about writing a technical manual, and I am seriously considering using a
cartoon format. Maybe not literally, but less is more. There's no need for
overly long sentences, and pages to explain what could fit in a well written
paragraph. If a topic is important, put an askerick in the margin?(As a
reader, I take those Tips seriously. I will read other material, until I grasp
what you are trying to get across.)

To those of you just starting out in Computing--it is definetly easier to
learn this stuff now.

------
willyk
it's awesome to see this progress, thanks for sharing and the awesome work

~~~
anon3_
I guess it's great news for women.

Isn't this going to create bitterness and animosity between genders? Why don't
men get a leg up?

What's to keep these from bestowing attitude of entitlement in women? I
already hear some of the most vocal women in tech trying to ban the word
merit.

------
shellbye
This is a great project!

------
fooballs
You don't beat sexism by creating a sexist organisation.

It's amazing how people think that there are all these barriers to programming
for certain groups of people which must be overcome. There aren't. Sit down,
grab a computer and a book, and learn to code. If you're good at it, you'll
get a job, and people will respect you.

If you can't learn to code on your own, you probably don't have the mental
skills necessary to be a good coder. (Critical thinking, drive, determination
etc).

~~~
pron
There is a problem with your argument: evidence points to the contrary. As a
(very) gentle introduction, here are some facts:

[http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-...](http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-
women-stopped-coding)

[http://www.randalolson.com/2014/06/14/percentage-of-
bachelor...](http://www.randalolson.com/2014/06/14/percentage-of-bachelors-
degrees-conferred-to-women-by-major-1970-2012/)

~~~
thoughtmonkey
There are actually some really interesting numbers coming out of that study,
they can be found here:

[http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/nsf13327/pdf/tab33.pdf](http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/nsf13327/pdf/tab33.pdf)

The first thing to note, is that both the number of men and women getting CS
degrees dropped: the entire field went from ~42k BS degrees to ~24k degrees.
There were about 10k less men, and about 8k less women graduating in 1996
compared to 1986. The number eventually rebounded for men, but didn't recover
for women until 2003. So something drove men and women out of the field, and
women stayed out of it longer.

The next interesting thing is the number of masters and PhDs per gender.
Neither of them dropped (so the percentage of BS graduates getting MS and PhD
actually increased!). So it was still desirable for men and women in the field
to get their masters and doctorates.

So the question isn't why the number of women plunged, it's what drove both
men and women out of CS, and what caused it to grow for men? I would probably
hypothesis that CS was seen as a risky degree, so while men are generally less
adverse to risk (see all the dangerous jobs they do) and got a degree, women
choose more stable degrees (though those interested remained, as I think the
number of PhD and Master degrees show). Now that CS is now seen as a stable
career, we can see there is more interest to join. Of course, that is only
looking at the data cited by what you linked, there could definitely be other
circumstances.

~~~
pron
> I would probably hypothesis that CS was seen as a risky degree, so while men
> are generally less adverse to risk

I don't know about that. Men consistently study fields with higher income
potential than women. The current theory is that when CS started gaining
prestige and power, the same thing happened as with all professions that carry
power and prestige -- women were pushed out (and by that I don't mean that
there was some conspiracy, but society simply started directing women away
from CS).

~~~
thoughtmonkey
I could definitely be wrong about the risk factor for girls/guys. It was just
another possible issue that could be extrapolated from the data

I still feel that saying "women were pushed out" is the wrong way to phrase
it. We can see from the data, that both men and women were "pushed out" of the
field, with men recovering from the drop earlier. After reading a bit more, it
could be that marketing in the 80's (as suggested by the NPR article)
negatively effecting both women and men (which was left out of the NPR
article) entering the field, but women ended up more effected.

Side note: drops like this have occurred in other fields at different times.
Psychology actually ended up losing a lot of men in the 70s, while women
increased. I am sure we could find a few other examples as well.

~~~
pron
> Side note: drops like this have occurred in other fields at different times.
> Psychology actually ended up losing a lot of men in the 70s, while women
> increased. I am sure we could find a few other examples as well.

Absolutely. Many researchers compare those shifts with changing attitudes
towards certain professions (say, by counting certain words when they're
described in the media etc.), with women participation usually correlated
negatively with prestige.

In any case, much of the distinction between masculine and feminine
professions is traced back to Victorian times. Of course, similar differences
have existed much longer than that and in many cultures, but the Victorians
elevated the distinction between gender roles into an elaborate system of
social codes (e.g. they had certain rooms in the house more appropriate for
men to spend time in, and other for women).

------
anon3_
Why not just make your way into take like everyone else?

Why are girls special? Why do they get red carpet treatment?

That's going to give us a workforce of a lot of women who feel entitlement
beats merit.

~~~
bayesianhorse
DjangoGirls is very good at on-boarding women. They provide a non-threatening
and positive environment to get over the first hurdles in developing. They
focus on that area, they are great at it, and why should we criticize them for
this?

I generally think these kinds of "reverse discrimination" arguments are mainly
BS. There definitely is discrimination or at least unfavorable biases about
gender in technology. Diversity initiatives don't even come close to
compensating these disadvantages.

~~~
anon3_
People have disadvantages, especially white men. Who comprise most of tech.
You can bet we have to live with any disadvantages and no ones giving us
sympathy

Why onboard women? Why give them silver spoons? Why is this a thing?

~~~
bayesianhorse
White male privilege doesn't mean you have it easy. It's just that as a black
person or woman or both, you have it a lot less easy.

DjangoGirls is no "silver spoon" by any means. It's hard work and many of the
participants struggle to get through the tutorial in a day. Still, this
"silver spoon" as you put it, doesn't come close to equalizing the evident
discrimination.

------
AlexNeoNomad
Why can't women just learn Django? Is it necessary to create an organisation
for it?

~~~
bayesianhorse
As far as I understand it, there is a misconception that women are bad at
programming, or don't like it, or whatever. So yes, motivating women to learn
Django is a necessary task if diversity is to be increase.

------
AlexNeoNomad
I'm going to create an organization for one of my libraries written in Rust.
Hey, fans of "frank_jwt" \- join me.

