
Ask HN: How do I begin web development without local files? - sroerick
So, for the moment and for the forseeable future, I'm stuck on an iPad and library computers. I know html and CSS relatively well, but I would like to learn how to build a fairly simple web app and database.<p>Am I stuck? I am primarily using cpanel to write html. It's kind of a bummer, but it works, slowly.<p>I've begun learning python on codeacademy, but I'm definately not at the point of writing an app with it. I don't even know how to install the thing on a server.<p>Sorry for the totally clueless post, but even a couple of web apps to google or something would help me out a lot! Thanks.
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mschuster91
Well, if you got a decent hoster, you can get SSH access (or "shell access",
it's the same term). Then you can edit on the linux commandline using e.g.
editors like vi, joe, emacs or nano.

Bonus point is that you will earn experience in Linux shell usage.

Also, leave your fingers off Python for web. It sucks already enough for
commandline, and it's a nightmare for web stuff. Use PHP if you want to do web
development, just as everyone other does (okay, Java and ASP.net exist, too,
but these are enterprise-level solutions, not available at usual hosters).

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lutusp
> Use PHP if you want to do web development, just as everyone other does ...

I can't believe you just recommended PHP to a newbie. This is like
recommending Fortran to someone asking about modern scientific analysis
software.

In any case, the OP should probably start by learning static HTML design,
before moving on to various automation methods. But PHP -- wow. It's like
recommending BASIC instruction to a programming student.

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sroerick
Hah, this was my impression of PHP. I am fine with static HTML design, I get
CSS, tables, and I've set up a bootstrap site or two. I don't know anything
about interacting with a database, which (I think) is where I need to go next.

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mschuster91
For databases, you need a server side programming language. The choices
available are basically: PHP (available just f __*ing everywhere, starting at
3€/month!), ASP.net (Windows Server only, also AFAIK needs MS Visual Studio,
not sure about that), Java (do not use, do not use, do not use), Python
(sucks), Ruby (sucks even worse).

PHP has the widest adoption among hosters and user-bases, also there exist
lots of proven OpenSource projects where you can borrow code from (e.g.
Wordpress, MediaWiki). The lack of user-base is what discredits Python and
Ruby for me, they're just too exotic.

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chas
Would you mind elaborating on how Python and Ruby suck in ways that PHP
doesn't?

There are a bunch of PaaS providers that have free hosting for Ruby and Python
projects if infrastructure and cost are a problematic for sroerick. They are
both fairly mainstream too, the tiobe index[1] ranks PHP at 4.8%, Python at
4.4% and Ruby at 2.2%. This isn't a perfect measure, but I think it puts PHP,
Python, and Ruby in the same ballpark.

[1]
[http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index....](http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html)

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mschuster91
The TIOBE index is not usable for web development, simply because it is
focused on general-purpose programming languages... which include the four "C"
variants with 43% of the share. None of these (okay, C# excepted due to MS
ASP) is widely used for web development.

Now PHP ranks second behind Java (though I'd guess if you made a strictly web-
focused index, PHP would outrank Java!).

For the "Python/Ruby sucks vs PHP" part:

* the user-base is damn small compared to PHP. Go into any web-development agency and ask if someone uses PHP for web-dev and if someone uses Ruby/Python for web dev. The percentage of shops using PHP _will_ be significantly higher.

* Ruby and Python do not originate from web development, but from "normal" programming. Web capability got "bolted on" onto them with CGI and various frameworks, while PHP originated from the Web and only recently acquired usability as a scripting language.

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chas
I brought up the TIOBE index not as an absolute metric but to show that Ruby
and Python are not totally obscure languages and have usage similar to PHP. I
think your "go into any web-dev shop" test fails for software of interest to
developers here who are developing web applications rather than dynamic sites.
The web-specific part of PHP is it's ability to act as a template language,
inline with HTML. I don't think this is an advantage for web apps as there is
often significant logic and infrastructure other than the user interface and
frequently several interfaces are desirable (e.g. API, mobile, and web).
Mixing together logic and presentation, that is to say the web-specific parts
of PHP, make this goal much more difficult.

Ruby and Python were not originally made for web development, but they have
been extremely successful and popular in that role. Twitter, Github, Stripe,
and Hulu have significant Ruby components, and Instagram, Dropbox, Mixpanel,
Pinterest, and Yelp use Python. There are smart people choosing these
languages to build their companies with for a reason.

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brianr
Have you see Koding? <http://koding.com> . Web-based IDE and terminal access
to cloud servers they host for you. I've played around with it a bit and it is
really, really cool.

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stuffihavemade
Just curious, why can't you get a computer? You'd be better off with even a 10
year old model than an iPad, if for no other reason than having a keyboard.

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sroerick
Oh, I actually have a bluetooth keyboard. I also have a chrome netbook, but
they end up being about... equal frankly.

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epikur
Try cloud9: http:/c9.io

