
The 501 Developer Manifesto - tomstuart
http://501manifesto.org/
======
zacharyvoase
“It’s just a job.”

It's just 8 hours a day. 5 days a week. Roughly 25% of your life. Another
33.3% is spent asleep. Maybe you commute to work; maybe that takes you 45
minutes each way. That's 4.4% of your life spent driving, walking, on trains
or buses to get to your job. You're going to spend a small percentage of your
life on the toilet; another small percentage in supermarkets buying food, in a
kitchen preparing it, or in a dining room eating it.

All the 'big events' in your life will be squeezed into the precious little
time you have left after survival's necessary subtractions. Going to school.
Getting drunk. Being hungover. Getting married. Buying a house. Attending
funerals.

Perhaps we were thinking in similar terms. You took those thoughts—nay,
facts—and channeled them into a manifesto which guides your relationship with
your employer.

Here's what I did with the same facts. I decided I'm not spending over 25% of
my life (37.5% of my _waking_ life) doing something I don’t LOVE. For
comparison, if I find a spouse, it's likely I won't spend 25% of my life in
their company. So if I'm going to spend more time at work than I will with my
future husband, I need to love my job at least as much as I do him. That's the
conviction which caused me, just a few hours ago, to hand in my notice of
resignation to my current employer. Because when I find myself watching the
clock _waiting_ for 5:01, I must concede that 25% of me (37.5% of the waking
me) has already died.

This isn't a judgement. I respect you for your decision. There's probably some
pity in there too, but honestly, it's mostly respect.

~~~
Drbble
Do you take drugs to prevent sleep? Because sleep is stealing a huge amount of
your life too.

~~~
zacharyvoase
It's fair to say that I love sleep :)

Indeed, very few people in our industry don't appreciate a daily hit (or two)
of caffeine.

~~~
andrewingram
I avoid caffeine, but mostly because of other issues...

------
debacle
I thought this was going to be another one of those 'Internet Manifestos.'

I was very pleasantly surprised. This is something I am definitely behind,
even though for me it isn't just a job. I love programming, but for years my
programming at home has languished because my programming at work is a soul-
sucking endeavor that leads me to have a sinking feeling every time I look at
the Komodo icon on my home PC.

I think the core problem here is not about an us versus them when it comes to
the guys who go home to their wife and kids and the guys that go home to their
git and vim. It's more about the fact that _both_ groups probably spend too
much time away from their homes, and right now the programming scene is
incredibly fractured. Programmers are certainly not a homogenous group. Off
the top of my head, I can think of about a dozen different flavors of
programmer, all with their own innate perceptions about things both
programming related and not.

What we really need is a coming together of the programmers-by-trade and the
programmers-at-heart to declare war on all of the silly little stereotypes
that have created a workplace unfairness in IT in the last fifteen to twenty
years. You need a communion of individuals to create a semi-fraternal
organization that looks like a union on the outside but inside is a diverse
collective of brilliant minds.

It wont be easy, but many smart people (and a very few ridiculously articulate
people) have been passively advocating for it in the last ten years or so, and
I think that as the post-dotcom generation starts to move into their 30s we'll
see a drastic change in the employee relationship within the next five to ten
years.

~~~
gnosis
_"You need a communion of individuals to create a semi-fraternal organization
that looks like a union on the outside but inside is a diverse collective of
brilliant minds."_

It's very sad that decades of right-wing propaganda has made "union" a dirty
word.

This is especially true in the technology field, which is so infested with
libertarians that you'd feel the need to qualify your suggestion for the
formation of what is essentially a union by saying that it only "looks like a
union on the outside".

Why not just come out and call it a union? Why couldn't a real union have "a
diverse collective of brilliant minds" on the "inside"?

A union is just an organization of professionals who try to collectively
improve their working conditions and compensation. There's absolutely nothing
wrong with or shameful about this.

The time for a technology workers' union has been long overdue in the US. We
shouldn't feel ashamed to suggest its formation or to call it what it is.

~~~
eli_gottlieb
It's very sad that decades of right-wing propaganda has made libertarians
think that a trade union is anything other than a rightful exercise of the
Freedom of Association.

------
agentultra
Funny thing is that I prefer to go home @ 5 as well... but when I do get home
I often read books about programming, catch up on articles and papers, or work
on some amusing side-project.

Often I'll learn some maths, experiment with some new approaches to solving
problems, or watch screen casts to learn how other people approach the craft.

I don't do it because I'm some corporate shill. I just really love
programming.

I also have a wife, a child on the way, and my life seems pretty balanced to
me.

I just look at overtime and think: well I only have so many minutes left to
live, what's in it for me if I do this? Sometimes the answer is just money
because that's probably what I needed at that moment... more often than not in
recent years I don't bother unless there's equity on the line (which has never
been on the table anyway). If my employers ever had a problem with it I just
moved on. Things got tight but they never hit rock bottom.

It's all just about priorities and sticking up for yourself.

~~~
vasco
You would get payed if you stayed longer? Here (Portugal) it's common practice
for every kind of dev to work overtime with no extra pay, it's seen as a trait
of the job and it's not just when there's a huge deadline, because there
always is.

~~~
agentultra
I have worked in places where overtime was just a part of the job and I didn't
last in such places for very long.

I have at times had to suffer such treatment because I needed the paycheck
even if I wasn't getting paid extra for the extra hours.

However there was still the choice to leave such a job and deal with the
consequences.

On one occasion I wasn't even given the choice. It was expected and I didn't
live up to those expectations. I wasn't that upset in the end because even
though money was tight for a while I still made it through and got another job
within a couple of weeks. I was much happier in the new position and most of
the people I knew who worked for that company eventually left anyway.

At some companies I would get paid for the extra time or at least would be
given paid time off later on. I just had to ask. Otherwise I would just go
home at my normal time.

These days I probably wouldn't even work over time if you paid me extra. I
only work overtime if I made a promise to deliver something by a certain date
(and I rarely make those promises unless I'm certain) or if I have some stake
in the company. That's largely because I'm in a position where I'm not living
paycheck to paycheck anymore and don't _need_ to work for my employers if I
don't want to.

Admittedly if you're just starting out or this kind of "overtime culture," is
pervasive everywhere ymmv.

~~~
moocow01
I think your end point is a key point. If you are in a situation to do so,
skip the BMW/big house etc and shoot for more financial independence - by that
I mean just having some savings to make you comfortable as a first step. It
will vastly change your ability to say 'no', 'I quit', or 'Im going home
because its late'

------
zmoazeni
I don't classify myself as a 501 developer. I'm probably the opposite that
they're rallying against. But I don't dismiss 501ers. Two things strike me
from the manifesto.

Since I've become a parent, I've noticed 5:00 has become more important to me.
We put our kids down to bed around 8:00, so I only have a few hours of quality
time with them each day.

Secondly, there are just things you won't learn on the job. And that doesn't
mean it's a bad job. My new shiny is currently Haskell. I shouldn't get huffy
if my work doesn't allow me to time to explore it. It'd be nice, but I'm not
entitled to it. And further, it doesn't mean I should start hunting for a
"better job". So in my opinion, 501ers are left with three alternatives:

1) They only learn/play/explore things that apply directly to their 9-5 job.
Or are limited to whatever time their work allows for exploration.

2) They find a job that aligns with their interests.

3) They make an business case to the company to incorporate the technology.
(However this is best done after you have a level of experience with it)

People could argue which of those are better. But if you're someone like me
and like to play with a large number of technologies, sometimes removing the
job out of the equation is much easier...and maybe even more fun.

~~~
edwinnathaniel
Anyone that is not a parent yet will never understand and will never value
such quality time.

... and I'm guessing that's the majority HN readers.

There's only 24 hours in a day, no more no less.

------
shadowfiend
“Playing fußball in the pub with our friends over playing fußball in the
office with our team leader”

Talk about a false dichotomy. I evade this problem by being friends with the
people I work with.

Overall, I think there are some good distinctions made here. And there is a
good point to the thing: “To us it is just a job, but we still do it well.” I
almost feel like the page should lead with that. That this isn't an indication
that this approach is _better_ than the other approach, simply that it's…
Different.

Maybe I don't have a family nearby right now. Maybe I am at a point in my life
where I can have free snacks and free time, where I can have sustainable pace
AND muscle-man heroics AND still enjoy life outside of work. But that's beside
the point of the page. The point here is to understand that not everyone has
that perspective, and that it's important to respect those that leave their
work at the office and dedicate more time to all the other things than you do
(if you're one not one of the “501 developers”).

~~~
tptacek
Just because you've made your coworkers part of your extended social life
doesn't mean there's no dichotomy between "socializing at work" and
"socializing with friends".

------
peteretep

      If you:
      Write a technical blog
      Contribute to open source projects
      Attend user groups in your spare time
      Mostly only read books about coding and productivity
      Push to GitHub while sitting on the toilet
      Are committed to maximum awesomeness at all times, or would have us believe it
    

Much of this applies to me, and applies to me because I love programming. If
you don't love programming, I am unlikely to ever respect you as a programmer.
Doubly so if you confuse loving programming with being at the beck and call of
a given employer, or confuse loving programming with what hours you spend in
the workplace.

The 5:01 article it links to is insightful, though.

~~~
egonschiele
+1. We pity you because you contribute to open source projects? I pity you for
not having found a job you love. In my experience, the people who work on open
source are the ones who innovate, create cool cutting-edge products. And then
the 5:01 guys come in and maintain the code. Who is to be pitied?

------
gruseom
That sarcastic tone is so weird that it's clear there's more to this than
working hours. I think it's about dead corporate culture, bad managers, and
dysfunctional teams where people don't agree.

The more interesting part is the second half, in the smaller print where the
author addresses his teammates. He uses words like "respect", but what he's
saying feels contemptuous and passive-aggressive. That's the real tell here.
Well, that and the suggestion that he doesn't believe in what he's working on.
No wonder he feels like checking out every day.

Does it matter what time someone leaves? Only if people feel it does. What
matters is that a team be aligned. If there's disharmony, work it out. If you
can't work it out, change the team. Writing a "manifesto" is not working it
out (though it might start a real conversation).

Personally, I want teammates who are passionate about doing great work. Come
and go whenever works for you. But passion doesn't get turned off like a light
switch at the same time every day.

------
jcoder
Contributing to open source projects, attending user groups in my spare time,
and mostly reading books about coding and productivity do NOT mean that I
allow my employment to penetrate deeply into my personal life. I allow my
interests and my passions to penetrate deeply into my personal life. If you
don't have the good fortune to be paid for your passions, don't put down those
who do as corporate shills.

I also make plenty of time for family and fun. Maybe it's all of those
productivity books.

------
petercooper
There's a gulf between a stereotypical "day job" developer and someone for
whom programming is a core part of their self image, but in real life there's
more of a subtle gradient.

People who write technical blogs, go to user groups, or endlessly read
programming books seem to be in the "not us" group, but I know of day job
developers who do (some/all of) those things. Drawing lines in the sand
doesn't seem useful when, I think, the issue behind this seems to be "don't
look down on us day job developers." :-)

~~~
bmj
You're right (I'm probably in the gradient somewhere), but I don't think that
bit of the manifesto is the crux. There are lots of people in many vocations
who contribute to their field without given up massive amounts of their spare
time. Some folks choose to give up their time, and, as the manifesto says,
more power to them.

The bigger takeaway for me from the manifesto is the first half--that my job
is my job. I enjoy my co-workers, but, truthfully, I enjoy my family and
friends more. And that should be okay.

------
hartez
This is excellent, and I'm fully behind it. Some of the best coworkers I've
ever had were 5:01'ers - they got things done on time because they had to, and
they didn't burn out.

Just don't break the build at 4:59. That's all I ask.

~~~
cpeterso
I suspect that many people who work long hours may be spending time on non-
work diversions. HN? ;)

People who leave at 5:01 may prioritize their time better.

------
bguthrie
Some of these things relate to employers, and some of them relate to
programming and craft. I'm all for keeping a sustainable pace on your project,
and not letting your employer's priorities continually override yours. But
some of this sounds too much like a defense of those whose dedication to
learning stops at the office door.

I respect those people for the time they spend with their families and loved
ones, and wish them the best, but I don't much enjoy working with them. I love
what I do, and if you do too, I expect to see some evidence that you enjoy it
in your spare time. Particularly for consultants or independent contractors, I
find the notion that all of your professional learning should be on your
client's dime to be ethically troublesome at best.

~~~
elemenohpee
> But some of this sounds too much like a defense of those whose dedication to
> learning stops at the office door.

I don't think it's fair to characterize it that way, there are other things to
learn about outside of programming. I spend a lot of time learning about
biology, sociology, economics, philosophy, etc. I spend time learning more
about friends and partners. I spend time learning about myself. Yours is
exactly the mentality that the article is addressing, the one that does not
see value in or respect any activity not directly related to coding. What's
troublesome to me is that some people focus so narrowly on technical
proficiency that I wonder how they have the time to develop the perspective to
know where to apply those skills.

~~~
gruseom
_Yours is exactly the mentality that the article is addressing, the one that
does not see value in or respect any activity not directly related to coding._

I certainly don't see that in what bguthrie wrote.

~~~
cgmorton
"In return, you must recognize that the success of the projects on which we
work together depends largely upon the degree to which you treat us with
respect, both as skilled professionals and as a diversity of autonomous living
people."

It's probably this part.

~~~
gruseom
bguthrie didn't write that.

------
moocow01
I think we need more of this. In the context of employment (meaning you are
not a 'true' owner), I genuinely have a hard time understanding why so many
are so good at sabotaging themselves. Its as if we need a primer in worker
economics before going into the workforce.

Obviously simple rule... the more you work for a flat rate (salary) the more
you lower your pay. Second simple rule... the more you work for a flat rate
(salary) the larger the opportunity cost. There are probably better things you
could be doing for yourself after 5 - things like oh I don't know... have
friends, family, start a business (that potentially does NOT have a salary
cap), learn new skills, etc. etc.

I see this attitude pop up all the time where there are groups of folks who
feel that everyone that is an employee who works normal hours should be thrown
out of the profession. From my perspective, this is an unfortunately toxic
attitude in that it degrades everyone as a whole and collectively detracts
from our value.

------
mapleoin
I'm at the beginning of my career. I moved to a different country because I
couldn't find a job I liked in my own country. I really like programming and I
started doing it in my spare time in high school and I still do it in my spare
time.

But, I wholeheartedly agree with this article. I need to go home at 5 in order
to keep liking programming. Sometimes I go home to program on a pet project or
to learn something new in the weekends. Most of the time I try to do that, but
life gets in the way. In a _good_ way. My gf wants to go out or I find some
new hobby or I want to go running or just stroll around in the beautiful city
I live in. I have problems that I want to solve in my life. I think about
stuff and read about stuff. I want to learn to build things with my hands,
ride a horse, play two musical instruments, paint etc.

I'm not an insect. I don't want to tell people I'm a programmer and have
nothing else to talk about (like some of the people I know in this industry).
I want to have friends who aren't programmers. In fact I usually appreciate
these friends' company a lot more. Because we talk about being human, not
about being programmers.

I'm really lucky to have a boss and colleagues who are like this, too. Some of
them are really bright people. Most of us have a big number of programming
books we've read. Just because I go home early it doesn't mean I'm not
passionate about my craft. I am and I constantly invest in getting better, but
I hope I'm not doing it at the expense of being a real human being and having
meaningful relationships with the people around me.

It's amazing to see the number of counter-arguments to this manifesto on HN
after a year ago everyone was praising things like the 4-hour work week and
getting more done in less time. Has that failed? Did it instead turn out that
we can be productive sitting on a chair for 12 hours a day?

Or maybe the people who really are passionate about programming are just
programming right now, because they want to quench their thirst for
programming in the 8 hours they have today and then get on with other
pursuits. And I should go do that now.

~~~
Jebus
What city do you live in?

------
undantag
During our latest "crunch project", we worked pretty crazy hours to ship on
time. One guy in the team works 6 hour days, and continued doing so all the
way, with a few exceptions.

As the rest of us turned to Zombies he remained calm, focused and sharp.
Without him, we wouldn't have shipped as well as we did.

~~~
gruseom
Did this cause friction on your team? Or did everyone feel good about the
arrangement?

~~~
undantag
I really thought there would have been more friction. Of course everybody was
affected by the tight schedule and initially bad their reservations about one
of us not pulling his weight in hours, but as time passed we were all going to
him for advice, asking him to review our code.

However, the people in management/business made some sweeping remarks about
our team "not working as hard as the other teams" in passing. Makes me think
that the further away from the code and actual productivity you are, the more
important hours and arbitrary productivity measures become.

~~~
gruseom
It's fascinating how healthy teams find the right balance in unpredictable
ways. The principal thing is that they be allowed to do it. Managers who
operate on the assumption that they're supposed to decide matters so often
intervene to wreck them. It seems strange, but it's simple cognitive
dissonance. It's psychologically difficult for middle managers who add no
value not to interfere, because that would mean admitting that they add no
value. So in order to prove they deserve their authority, they interfere and
cause harm. That's not true of everybody in such positions, of course. The
smarter ones understand that mostly what they need to do is nothing, just let
people work - sort of like the new-age Buddhist saying, "Don't just do
something, stand there!" But it's true enough in bulk that that whole
organizational form is irrational. It is gradually being replaced.

In any case, you've provided a nice example of how issues like working hours
are subsumed by team dynamics. That's where action is.

------
InclinedPlane
Something rings a bit off to me about this. Just because you aren't willing to
grind yourself into the dirt working 70 hour weeks on someone else's project
doesn't mean that you must lack an amazing passion for a craft that could be
an enormous part of your life and your identity.

By the same token, working long hours doesn't intensify your accrual of
experience, skill, or talent, nor does it automatically make you a better or
more passionate developer.

Passion is passion. Craft is craft. Whether you spend 1 hour a day doing it or
17.

------
f4stjack
Nah, I don't buy it. Especially the last bits. I write a technical blog
because it is your duty to educate nontechnical users about what you know. The
old fable of teaching a man how to catch fish comes to mind. This is never a
bad thing, and it makes your job easier!

Contributing to open source projects, user groups, reading books on coding and
productivity? How CAN these be pitiable things? I personally think this is a
step before being brogrammers, which I loathe.

Let's face it. Being a coder in this brave new world is akin to being a magus
in the old times. You know things, you incantate words and verbs only which
you and a chosen few understood and you create something out of nether, only
real in your mind's eye. And if you deal with information, as they did, you
have to convey it. This is something inherent to this craft. You encounter
problems with something, you log it; you solve it, you log it. When you share
it, many of the people who trod the path will solve the problem, sans the time
you spent, and do more. When they encounter something and log it, you will
know more. This is a balancing act, nothing more nothing less.

It may be just a job for you, but for me it is an act of creation and more
than a job.

------
jayferd
I've posted this here before, but I think it bears restating.

If you work as a software engineer in California and have a salary of less
than about 81K, you are entitled to overtime pay.

See the law here: <http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-
bin/displaycode?section=lab..>. (section 515.5), with 2011 and 2012 numbers
here: <http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlsr/ComputerSoftware.pdf>

I am not a lawyer, so do your own research please. But the gist is, if you
want developers who will work lots of free overtime, you have to pay them as
such.

------
ricardobeat
> Our personal creative projects over commercial products the world doesn't
> need

This invalidates the whole manifesto. Why are you working?

I think it's bad to polarize things like this - being a 501 developer vs not
having a life. Balance is key, and you should work on things that matter to
you. Don't blame the world.

------
pseale
A lot of people in the comments here miss the context: this was written by
Microsoft ecosystem developers.

Some of the items on the list specifically target Microsoft MVPs and Regional
Directors, the shots at "snacks" and "T-shirts" aim at Microsoft community
events, and the rest target standard corporate development dysfunction.

If there's one positive takeaway from this post, it's the bit of the end that
warns you to treat your 501 teammates well.

------
pnathan
I don't really want to work with people who are unmotivated and just "Do their
time and go". I've done it; I've worked in crappy jobs. Those jobs were, e.g.,
cashier at fast food joint. Or stocker at department store. _Everyone_ wanted
to leave. No one wanted to be there.

I am not really up to dealing with the harsh cynicism and assumptions of
uselessness of our work with someone who leaves as soon as possible. Doesn't
mean I don't like going home early. I do... But if your goal is to clock in at
8:30 and exit at 5:01, just to do the _bare minimum_ , I can't jibe with that.
I've worked with people like that... and I don't want to do it again.

Regards, pity, etc.

~~~
moocow01
I totally agree but to play devil's advocate why does motivation have to
correspond with working late into the night? In fact I'd argue that a
motivated team should be able to get their 'share' done in less than 8 hours a
day.

~~~
pnathan
You're assuming I mean working late into the night. :-)

I would say that a motivated person is okay with staying 5-20 minutes late
occasionally when trying to get something done that they care about.

------
rizzom5000
My opinion tends toward the idea that professionals, by definition,
participate in continuing education. This can be sponsored by an employer, but
it seems that in the software industry it is more often than not up to the
individual.

On the other hand, I also have passions that extend outside the realm of
software development. I'm not sure that this makes me any less passionate
about my profession - and in many ways likely enhances my 'personal brand'.
For those who are consumed entirely by software engineering - more power to
them.

------
skmurphy
This reminds me of Scott Adams "New Company Model OA5 Out at 5pm" model from
the last chapter of his "Dilbert Principle" [http://www.amazon.com/The-
Dilbert-Principle-Cubicles-Eye-Aff...](http://www.amazon.com/The-Dilbert-
Principle-Cubicles-Eye-Afflictions/dp/0887308589) on-line at
<http://mdsalunkhe.tripod.com/dilbert.htm>

    
    
       Out at Five
    
       I developed a conceptual model for a perfect company.      
       The primary objective of this company is to make employees as effective 
       as possible. The best products usually come from the most effective employees, 
       so employee effectiveness is the most fundamental of the fundamentals.
    
       The goal of the hypothetical company is to get the best work out of 
       the employees and make sure they leave work by five o’ clock. Finishing by 
       five o’clock is so central to everything that follows that I named the 
       company OA5 (Out at five) to reinforce the point. 
    
       If you let his part of the concept slip, the rest of it falls apart.
    
       The goal of OA5 is to guarantee that the employee who leaves at 5 PM 
       has done a full share of work and everybody realizes it.  For that to 
       happen an OA5 company has to do things differently than an ordinary company.
    

also discussed in <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3309820> and submitted
as <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=140712> four years ago

------
cpeterso
I thought this manifesto was going to be about "HTTP 501 Not Implemented"
developers, a new take on _You ain't gonna need it_. :)

------
tworats
This is conflating so many unrelated things. Leaving work at 5:01 is great -
leaving work whenever you need to is great. But spending your life working at
"just a job" is a waste. If you're only doing your job to make money you're
doing yourself a disservice.

------
cristiantincu
“A master in the art of living draws no sharp distinction between his work and
his play; his labor and his leisure; his mind and his body; his education and
his recreation. He hardly knows which is which. He simply pursues his vision
of excellence through whatever he is doing, and leaves others to determine
whether he is working or playing. To himself, he always appears to be doing
both.” —L.P. Jack.

Via Frank Chimero: <http://blog.frankchimero.com/post/17609912323>

~~~
gnosis
Sensible people get paid for playing. That is The Art of Life.

\-- Alan Watts

------
Su-Shee
Why are so many people making this an either - or?

Yes, I love programming.

Yes, I (mostly) treat work as 501 even though I (usally) love the work I'm
doing, but I'm not owned by any company.

Yes, I decide over a job similar to "love" precisely because it takes so much
time of everyone's live and I spend more time in the office with my coworkers
than I spend with my friends, family and spouses.

And I still want to see something else but my editor (and I do really like my
editor :) - art, books, parties, the city I live in - which I also chose by
"love" which is why I wouldn't move for a job to a city I do not like - other
cities, good food and other people.

So, I look hard to find a workplace I like to do work I love doing which fits
into "having a life outside".

And exactly that enables me to have a choice EVERY DAY wether I want to do
some hacking privately or have a nice dinner with friends.

But for many life decisions I'm on the side of the 501 manifesto's spirit: I
wouldn't leave my family/spouse for a programming job at $glorious_company, I
wouldn't move into some boring smalltown and leave all my friends and the
opportunities of my favorite city behind just to do programming at XYZ.

This doesn't keep me from having two thinkgeek shirts TOGETHER with 20 others,
going to a nerd conference here and there AND take two hours off to go into
this cool art exhibit which is at the nerdy_conference_town right now, read a
programming book once in a while on top of the pile of other books I read.

I totally accept that I'll never become a rockstar in programming with this
life-style - but I might have hung out and gotten drunk with real rockstars on
some of the parties I had time to attend or even played some rock because I
had time to be part of a rockband. ;) (God, I hate the rockstar metaphor a
lot.. :)

In the end it's about looking down on my life and thinking "it's a good life"
- and that changes from decade to decade anyways. What I considered a good
life with 22 isn't anymore what I consider a good life now - and yet I
wouldn't change a thing of my 22-year-old life.

------
cateye
Threatening with "there's a risk that we'll piss all over your fireworks"
falsifies "Not being a dick over being a rockstar".

I really liked the manifesto items, but after that the whole thing gets a
passive aggressive tone. That is unfortunate.

------
rhizome31
So now we need a European localized version called the 601 Developer
Manifesto.

------
ctrager
I've been programming a couple dozen years for a dozen companies, with side
projects too. Some of that time I've been a 501 developer, and some of that
time not. I think my natural tendency is to go beyond 501, and I'm happiest
when the company environment positively reinforces that tendency. When the
company seems to be indifferent to me going beyond (there can be a lot of
reasons for this), then I fall back to being a 501 developer as a coping
mechanism.

------
Xylakant
My major problem with 501 developers is that it's hard to tell those that say
"it's just a job, but I take pride in my craft and do it well" from those that
say "It's just a job. period." without pride and love for the craft. It's fine
to leave by 5:01 or even 4:59 and I actually urge my coworkers to do so, but
it's not fine to leave by 501 when you dropped the ball at 4:59 and leave the
rest of the team to clean your mess.

~~~
gnosis
Why can't the mess be cleaned up the next day?

And, honestly, just how often does do people in your team drop the ball right
before leaving for the day? Every day? Every other day? Every week even?

If someone's dropping the ball so frequently, perhaps they're either in the
wrong job or need some serious training and mentorship from more capable
members of the team.

And if it doesn't happen particularly often, what are you complaining about?

~~~
jon501
perfect, exactly. this kind of "501ers drop the ball and repeatedly let down
their colleagues" is just the kind of chuckleheaded received wisdom that the
ninja coders have been putting about for too long. we should all challenge it.

------
crowhack
Personally programming defines me. It is a discipline that can only be
mastered through dedication and time. I go through the entire day thinking
about programming, I go to sleep thinking about programming. Just because I do
it as a job as well does not take away from that. I realize that I am
extremely lucky to be so passionate about what I do but it isn't stopping you
to do what you want to do...go do it.

------
markrendle
Look, the people you are "pitying" are the people you depend on: we make your
operating systems, your languages, your frameworks, your tools; we invent the
things you use; we create your social networks; we abstract away the things
you find too hard; we built the very internet you're using to mock us. Do not
fuck with us, for without us, you would be a clerk in a dusty room writing out
invoices with a pen.

~~~
SarahJane
Why are you assuming "501 developers" don't do any of the things you list? I
think the point is that you can have balance in your life and be a good &
passionate coder.

~~~
Xylakant
Because they say so in the manifesto. They feel pity and respect for people
that build an open source project. Without Open Source: No MacOS in it's
current form, no php (facebook), no ruby (twitter), no linux (google), no
apache (large parts of the web). Granted, there are paid OS-developers
nowadays, but most is still for fun and passion and not paid for.

~~~
eli_gottlieb
Which is precisely why open-source programmers _have_ to be 501'ers. If we
stayed late every night at our paid jobs, how would we ever do our unpaid
jobs?

------
SkippyZA
In my opinion, people who love programming and spend they free time
programming as a 'hobby' are normally a lot better developers with a thirst to
better themselves. I see this at work. Plenty of our devs program as a job,
but those who have a genuine interest in programming are capable of a lot
more.

------
nickm12
Now if only there were some 501 designers to make that page easier on the
eyes.

------
ericHosick
Just in case there are people who have not seen this:
<http://agilemanifesto.org/>.

------
JoshuaRamirez
I'm trying to leave work right now, by 5:01pm, but I can't because I'm arguing
with you on the internet.

------
jermaink
Why not making it a GitHub project? ;)

------
swiil
'I'd fix it, but I'm going home now.' -- Maybe I'm indoctrinated by commercial
interest but I simply can not support this concept.

------
reiz
Thanks for posting this.

------
cadr
I was hoping this was about programmers in Arkansas (area code 501).

------
Fando
Indeed!

------
Tangaroa
Does anybody really look down on employees who leave work at the time that
they agreed to leave work when they took the job? I can't imagine this being a
problem, although I can see the desire for employees who value the work more
than they value keeping to a strict schedule. An interesting problem would
often keep me working late, and I would feel guilty for billing the company
for unauthorized overtime when I could have left on time. I've never
encountered an expectation for employees to routinely stay later than 5:00, or
by the same logic, an expectation for employees to come in a long while
earlier than their starting time.

~~~
eli_gottlieb
In the USA this is a big issue, because computer programmers aren't entitled
to overtime pay.

------
lo_fye
Well said :)

------
dhimes
A timely post. I am a paying customer of Yahoo (yeah, I know), and they are
badly broken today. It looks like the folks who got laid off are razing the
landscape behind them (or pissing on the fireworks, to use the OP's metaphor).
I pity their plight, but their actions, if my guess is correct, sure have me
fucked at the moment. I can't reach anybody at all.

