
Sometimes, it’s just time to go home - johns
http://www.benmilne.com/sometimes-just-go-home/
======
famousactress
The saddest thing about this post to me is the fact that he could only write
it because his startup is apparently doing great.

 _Most_ startups aren't, despite the fact that lots of the folks there are in
effectively the same personal position and feeling the exact same thing - in
addition to the added pressure of not feeling like they measure up to stories
like this one because their quarter didn't go nearly as well. I really feel
for those people, and I wish they felt more freedom to be honest and public
about these kinds of feelings.

Rather tangentially - I have a one and a half year old daughter who recently
turned a question we posed her ("Woah, kiddo. Are you freaking out!?") on it's
head. Now sometimes when she gets wound up she goes full-meta and runs back
and forth in the kitchen waving her hands in the air yelling "freaking out!",
in self-parody.

That reminds me, a little bit, of our startup-culture's relationship to
overwork... and don't get me wrong, I don't think articles like this are the
ridiculous self-parody, I think they're the really troubling and all-too-real
consequence.

Put simply I think we need to do a little more wiggling our toes in the carpet
and chilling the fuck out. The world's not suffering from a shortage of first-
world martyrs.

Take a breath, go home, do great work tomorrow, and for God's sake appreciate
the fact that you're in the hilariously small fraction of people who get to
blog about the pains of working too hard by choice.

~~~
mtbcoder
> The saddest thing about this post to me is the fact that he could only write
> it because his startup is apparently doing great.

Agreed.

> Most startups aren't, despite the fact that lots of the folks there are in
> effectively the same personal position and feeling the exact same thing - in
> addition to the added pressure of not feeling like they measure up to
> stories like this one because their quarter didn't go nearly as well. I
> really feel for those people, and I wish they felt more freedom to be honest
> and public about these kinds of feelings.

...and let's also not forget all the folks who are barely making ends meet at
their existing jobs, putting in 60+ hour work weeks for a measly salary that's
been stagnate for years or all the folks needing to work an extra job or two
just to survive.

~~~
famousactress
I certainly haven't! Those were the people I had in mind when I ended the
comment with _" and for God's sake appreciate the fact that you're in the
hilariously small fraction of people who get to blog about the pains of
working too hard by choice."_

It's hard to fairly cover every situation the OP is enjoying more privilege
than, because frankly there's an ocean of them.

------
Htsthbjig
When I was young I met a Spanish tennis player called Rafael Nadal when he was
a kid.

He was managed and coached by his uncle who had experience in being a
professional football player.

What shocked me is that he did not sacrifice Rafael's life like most of other
kids that could be good(examples like Michael Jackson or in tennis the
Wiilians' sisters or Arantxa Sanchez Vicario in Spain).

At the time everybody believed that if Rafael was not sent to Barcelona to a
tennis Boarding school without seeing their family and giving it all to
tennis, he couldn't make it.

Toni, his uncle, believed that if he were to be a good tennis player
sacrificing everything else, it was not worth it.

Rafael got to be the best Spanish player of all time.

When I created my company I wanted to be rich, but rich meant not just money,
but having time to make love to my wife, see my children grow or reading and
writing in HN.

At the end, you discover you could delegate lots of work.

~~~
antaviana
Just a small correction. Rafa Nadal trainer is not the former professional
football player Miguel Angel Nadal (who is also Rafa's uncle) but Miguel
Angel's brother, Toni Nadal.

------
yason
Life is now.

If you‘re doing something for money so that you can live your life the way you
want later, that doesn‘t work because it takes time to learn to live your life
the way you want. Typically it takes a lifetime to do that, so you must start
early: you must start now if you wish to make it. Otherwise you‘ll end up with
a lot of cash and no idea of what kind of life makes you fulfilled.

If you‘re doing something to make a difference – or to make the world a better
place – then if you feel like you‘re running out of time then you‘re probably
doing it wrong. That sort of goals are rarely if ever such undertakings that
are constrained by time. Paradoxically, life is short yet there‘s always
plenty of time so as to not have to hurry things. If you work madly for a few
years what is it that you think you‘ll win from it if you compare doing that
thing you can‘t not do for decades? Or maybe you weren‘t doing a thing you
can‘t not do in the first place?

Rush is a sign that you have grown an inflated sense of importance. Nothing is
that important, not even the important things.

If you‘re building a company, you have all the time to grow the business. Some
families have been doing that for centuries, many individuals for decades. If
you have a really great idea, take the time to work on it. If you‘re lucky,
someone else does the same thing and finishes faster than you which means you
don‘t have to do it at all! You can just enjoy the benefits of the addition of
widget X or feature Y in the pool of things tangible in our lives. Maybe the
idea wasn‘t that unique after all. But some ideas are and thosee you can work
on for years. For many things in life, building them slower makes them last
longer. Even a good relationship or a family tree.

For these reasons, I consider it a better approach to weave the things you
can‘t not do and your life together. This removes a divide: life goes on at
its own pace and along comes your calling but they‘re not in conflict. There‘s
no contrast between work and family, or business and private life because
everything is scattered around in the timeline of your life in small pieces.
There‘s always some work but there‘s always home and family too. Neither is
more important than the other and none of the areas can continuously hog a big
chunk of your focus.

 _Daddy must work now, daddy has to write an important email because those
people need daddy‘s opinion._

 _I can‘t have the meeting today, I need to cook dinner and water the garden
with my daughter._

~~~
tedks
This is the sort of sentimentality that has no place in modern capitalism.

Why would you need to cook dinner or water a garden (who even has a garden) or
even have children in the first place? People have been doing that for
thousands of years. If you want to scratch dirt you can move to Kansas and be
a dirt farmer. Plenty of time with your kids with that career track.

If you're building a company, you have _almost no_ time to do _anything_.
Building a company is a very difficult task that very few people can
successfully execute, and even fewer can successfully execute in the limit.
It's just intrinsically hard.

In comparison, cooking dinner or putting the hose on some lettuce or some
anemic tomato plants is easy as balls. They pay people pennies an hour to do
those things for you. You can just pay them to do them, and do interesting,
hard things yourself.

Personally, I think preferring easy things to hard things is a sign of
weakness. Doing hard things is fulfilling. Cash is incidental, but it is a
very good metric of how hard something is. If you are not making very much
money, you aren't doing things that are very hard.

Life is, truly, very short. You can spend it doing hard things and, if you
die, know that you were able to go further and faster and _better_ than all
the people around you, that you've _won_ , or you can die knowing that you did
the same boring things people did since they were barely past apes.

~~~
hibbelig
I find that raising children and caring for and loving my family is the
hardest I've done yet. It's not paying any money.

~~~
danielovich
Spot on! And also more important

~~~
AndrewKemendo
Not disagreeing necessarily, but I am curious what makes you rate it "more
important."

~~~
whafro
The choice to have kids in the first place is a purely individual choice. For
some, it may be incredibly important. For others, I think it's perfectly
acceptable to opt out of the whole thing.

Once you've had the kids, however, I'd suggest that most startups (perhaps not
absolutely all) are objectively less important than making sure your kids grow
up to be decent, empathetic, constructive members of society – for whatever
definition of society you choose. It may be tough for your kid to grow up to
change everyone's world, but it's really easy to let one grow up to destroy
someone's world, and preventing that is the job you took on when you decided
to take the step of having a child that may one day interact with mine.

~~~
AndrewKemendo
Thanks for your perspective.

------
Animats
This guy is the CEO. So, by definition, this is a management problem. Dwolla
has some money now; they can hire people. This guy needs to learn how to build
a staff and delegate. He's only done startups, and hasn't worked in a long-
established company where they have this figured out.

Some founders have trouble letting go of control. They want to do it all
themselves. That doesn't scale.

~~~
gambiting
Exactly. My parents have been running a company since they were both in their
twenties. Starting in a country where literally no one has heard of funding or
investment(early years after communism fell), they have started with nearly
nothing. For the past 20 years they have been spending every second of their
time at work, well into their forties. They kept growing, hiring more
people(now almost 200), opening more shops, and they just couldn't manage,
there's only so many places you could be in at once. Until in the last few
years they hired a couple managers to take the load off their backs. Now they
only need to visit our offices a couple times a week, are a lot more relaxed
than they were some time ago. But my point is - they didn't arrive at this
conclusion that they need managers by themselves. They always thought that if
they spent 5 minutes left at the office the whole thing would fall apart.
Someone else told them that they will burn our completely if they don't start
hiring other people to do their work - and it worked. There's no point in
having money if you never have time to spend it.

~~~
genwin
> There's no point in having money if you never have time to spend it.

Moreover, the only point of money is to spend it. They should focus on
enjoyment now. They'll be playing catch up with other people who've been
working to live through their forties. Ideally they'd sell the company if they
wouldn't have to work again, so it's not a distraction.

------
abuteau
It shouldn't be the way. We met Brad Feld last year in Las Vegas (Up Summit)
and he talked about his depression[1]. I suggest everyone to read the
depression archives on Brad Feld blog [2]. Pretty insightful posts. I tend to
be obsessive and I lost someone I really care about because of focus on money
and too much work. At the end of the day, you have to focus on your
priorities, your wife/family is one and should deserve a decent amount of
attention. Brad said that when Amy call him whenever he's in a meeting he will
still answer, because she's a priority. Outworking yourself is not likely the
way you will succeed in the long run. Work hard != work smart

George Bernard Shaw said: "I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig.
You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."

1\. [http://www.inc.com/magazine/201307/brad-feld/many-
entreprene...](http://www.inc.com/magazine/201307/brad-feld/many-
entrepreneurs-deal-with-depression.html)

2\.
[http://www.feld.com/archives/tag/depression](http://www.feld.com/archives/tag/depression)

~~~
unclebucknasty
I read the following from link 2 in your comment:

[http://www.feld.com/archives/2014/10/helps-
depressed.html](http://www.feld.com/archives/2014/10/helps-depressed.html)

This may be veering off-topic, but reading the suggestions submitted by the
reader in that post made me wonder some people (many, in fact) have to
actively work so hard to hold off depression. Something is going wrong
(organically, culturally, or both) that depression is the default state for so
many.

Culturally, I think our relationship with work is certainly part of it. And,
some personalities (e.g. driven or obsessive) may just be more susceptible.

~~~
alexbecker
> Something is going wrong (organically, culturally, or both) that depression
> is the default state for so many.

I'm not convinced that this is any different from the "natural state" of
humans (which granted is not completely well-defined). I do not see any reason
to expect people to be generally happy. While it's overly reductionist to
think of evolution in terms of individual "fitness", it is not clear to me
that a general trend of being unhappy (which in slightly more outlying cases
becomes depression) decreases fitness. The only obvious effect I can see is
suicide, but that's pretty rare statistically speaking, and we have strong
self-preservation instincts independent of happiness that are pretty hard to
override. Being reliably happy on the other hand is probably ruinous to
fitness--what motivation would I have to do anything?

~~~
unclebucknasty
From a strict evolutionary fitness perspective, depression is very nearly
catastrophic. But, that framing doesn't make sense in the first place, nor is
it necessary in order to assess the "natural state" of humans.

Depression is a mental health issue. Unhealthiness is not a natural state.

You are also profoundly misguided in your understanding that depression is the
opposite of happiness. Most of your argument seems to rest on that confusion.

~~~
alexbecker
Perhaps I was unclear. I'm not arguing that depression is "naturally" common.
Only that reliable happiness is perhaps not naturally common. I'm not arguing
that depression is the opposite of happiness; however, I do not think it's
unreasonable that if people are overall less happy, this will increase the
incidence of depression.

~~~
unclebucknasty
> _Perhaps I was unclear._

Well, it seems that you said what you meant to say, because your clarification
still leans pretty heavily on the notion of happiness vs. depression.

> _I 'm not arguing that depression is "naturally" common. Only that reliable
> happiness is perhaps not naturally common._

Here's the problem. Statements about "reliable" or "unreliable" happiness in
response to a discussion about depression reduce depression to, essentially, a
period of unhappiness. Your suggestion is that consistent happiness may not be
naturally common. The corollary (in this context) is that the intermittent
periods of unhappiness represent depression.

So, I'm really not sure how the response that you're repeating here about
"reliable happiness" can be construed than anything other than an erroneous
framing of what depression is.

This is not to pick nits, but I think it's a common misconception that reduces
depression to a mental state or emotion on par with "happiness" or "sadness".
That characterization does a disservice to sufferers, even if unintentional.

Depression is an ugly, dark beast that attaches itself to the depressed person
and refuses to let go. In situations that should generate "happiness", the
depressed person is often unable to feel it. Depression can be wholly
orthogonal to "regular" emotions.

~~~
alexbecker
I think I address that with my last sentence:

>I'm not arguing that depression is the opposite of happiness; however, I do
not think it's unreasonable that if people are overall less happy, this will
increase the incidence of depression.

None of what you say contradicts this. You point out

> Depression can be wholly orthogonal to "regular" emotions.

which is certainly true, but it also can be quite parallel to them. In my
experience, my worst episodes of depression were usually triggered by periods
of profound unhappiness, even if during these episodes the experience is not
the same as being continuously unhappy.

(Characterizing depression as coming in "episodes" is also misleading, as it
is generally ever-present to some extent; but any characterization less than
several pages long is misleading. I'd appreciate the benefit of the doubt that
I understand the other issues and subtleties in play even if I do not discuss
them.)

~~~
unclebucknasty
Well, I'm in no position to deny you the benefit of the doubt with regard to
what you intended. I can only take you at your word there. I'm only pointing
out that what you've written doesn't seem consistent with it.

> _None of what you say contradicts this._

It actually does in that I've effectively stated that the sentence has no
meaning in this context.

Replying further would only belabor the point and I don't want to be
antagonistic. I'll just chalk it up to miscommunication. Thanks for the
discussion.

------
javajosh
Last year I worked for a startup and I allowed myself to be pushed past the
breaking point. The founders tempted me with equity (which never actually
materialized) and I ended up doing many all nighters and many 90-hour weeks
prior to an early release (another company was doing the front-end while we
did the server in-house).

I don't have a wife or a puppy, but I shouldn't have allowed this to happen. I
was hired to work for a set salary under the assumption of a 40-hour work-week
- although I am naturally obsessive so I knew that wouldn't actually last. But
I didn't expect my boss to say things like, "If we don't have a working build
by 3pm tomorrow, we're all fired," (which turned out to be false, actually).

Pacing is important, and I think it would be interesting to do a startup where
pacing is actively encouraged. I think this might be possible at a startup
with strong IP protection, good funding, and leadership that sets realistic
goals and trusts it's people to be motivated to get it done. It may mean that
the public has to wait a bit longer before having a cool new thing available
to them, but it also means that the thing will have been constructed by fresh,
happy minds.

There is a moral imperative to not buy goods made in sweatshops. There is also
a moral imperative to not use software produced under inhumane conditions.
Congratulations on discovering this for yourself - and I hope you encourage
your coworkers to be humane to each other and themselves as well.

~~~
127001brewer
_If we don 't have a working build by 3pm tomorrow, we're all fired..._

This is a bothersome and worrisome comment that probably has been repeated (in
some variation) too often. How is this the fault of the developer(s)?

I appreciate that founders need to fulfill their promises, especially when
having the backing of investors, but these type of statements seem to indicate
a failure in communication and planning (more than execution).

------
orofino
I'm reading this while sitting in a restaurant in Nepal. My wife and I are
here for around three weeks for hiking to Everest Base Camp. After this, we
are headed to China for 11 days. In total, I'm going to be out from work for 5
weeks. Almost three years ago we quit our jobs, sold our house and travelled
for 9 months through South America, Antarctica, and Europe.

I work at a startup. I'm the product manager and we are rebuilding the product
from the ground up, in December we will have been working on the rebuild for a
full year and our first beta customers will be starting on the new platform.
The five weeks immediately previous to that, I'm out of the office for an
extended period.

This is to say, you have to make the time for yourself. We both work hard,
both of our new jobs (which are way better than our pre big trip jobs btw)
allowed us to take this five weeks without much hassle. The team will survive
and I'll come back refreshed and ready to tackle new problems.

Perhaps some think our startup will fail because someone took time off for
this long, I'll tell you that I sure don't.

~~~
contingencies
Hey, I'm on the eastern edge of the Himalayas near Kunming, the capital of
Yunnan, China. While 11 days isn't much so I doubt it, if you guys are
planning to visit Yunnan you are welcome to come sailing on our huge alpine
lake. :)

------
8f2ab37a-ed6c
The startup thing has been both amazing and incredibly devastating.

Haven't seen my folks in years. Spouse dumped me because I practically didn't
exist outside of work. Absolutely no hobbies or traveling in years. No
guarantee the company will be anything but a massive drop in my financial
history. You're constantly running out of money, so you're cutting every
unnecessary expense, and you're living on scraps for years, knowing that you
could be making 10x that much in the workforce. You can't quit though because
so many people look up to you for direction, they need you to be there and
lead them, to be certain of where you're going. The stress can be so high you
just want to roll up in fetal in a corner and disappear. You understand why so
many founders end their lives.

The experiences however and the connections are priceless. The feeling of
playing the game on your terms is liberating and the hope of the upside is
exhilarating, but I still wish the price wasn't so high. The amount of
personal growth is astounding: once you go through the above, everything else
feels like easy mode. You have to develop resilience, charisma, diplomacy,
discipline and so many other traits or you will sink fast.

In hindsight, I don't know if I'd do anything differently. When you're this
deep, you try not to dwell on hypotheticals.

I remember many years ago when I was sold to the startup lifestyle by the
sexiness of the message, but the dozens of PG essays and stories of success
and freedom. Nowadays I caution people to truly dig deep and understand if
this is worth it to them, ask them if they're ready to sacrifice everything
for likely nothing at all. Ultimately we're slaves of power law and similar to
Hollywood talent in our outcomes: a very small fraction of us is going to
becomes gods through either luck or huge sacrifice, and 99.9% of us will be
waiting tables for the rest of our lives, or decide to do something else.

~~~
santoshalper
Even here, you can't help but romanticize your experience. If you could see
through the silicon valley delusion you've been fed, you would realize that
you destroyed your life, your marriage, and most of your personal
relationships, probably for nothing.

You say you have developed these incredible skills, and perhaps you have. What
will they do for you... what is your endgame? Perhaps your next startup will
be massive success and you will be rich, but will you be happy with no
relationships? Who will be happy for your success that is not also making
money from it?

You have been conned into playing a game you cannot win at the cost of your
humanity. Run away now.

~~~
72deluxe
I too was surprised how the listing of all the things that were lost (really
important things in life) were suddenly swept under the carpet with "the
experiences.... were priceless".

I don't think that the experience of not seeing or having a family and not
having a life (traveling or hobbies) is a priceless experience!!!

------
trevmckendrick
I don't want to be a wet blanket, but when I read how hard he and others work,
the first thought that comes to me is:

"I'm not working even close to that level."

In a way, it's a glimpse into the reality required to do Great Things.
Followed by the painful self-awareness that you're nowhere close.

~~~
snewman
Great Things require dedication, passion, and vision. Working yourself to
death is not on the list of requirements, and in fact can often be counter-
productive.

If you're passionate about your job, you're likely to work hard. But there's a
line between "working hard", and overworking. Beyond a certain point, more
hours may (or may not) mean more things done, but almost certainly doesn't
mean more of the right things done.

~~~
sillysaurus3
_Great Things require dedication, passion, and vision. Working yourself to
death is not on the list of requirements_

If that's true, it should be possible to make a list of companies that have
been built without the founders working very hard (or rather, extremely long
hours). What are some companies that could go onto such a list?

As a filter, let's use criteria "The founders got rich enough not to have to
work anymore, or the company went public," since that's generally why people
start startups.

EDIT: I've updated the question to ask specifically for instances of companies
that have IPO'd or been acquired without the founders working extremely long
hours, and also to clarify that I'm asking about the founders' working hours,
not the employees. Thanks, enjo.

~~~
chollida1
Start with Jeff Hawkins

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Hawkins](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Hawkins)

I remember hearing him lecture where he said he always tried to be home by
5:30 to have dinner with his family.

Grid, Palm, Numenta, Handspring, are all great successes.

~~~
sillysaurus3
Awesome, thank you! This is a great example. It's strange to see evidence that
founders don't always have to work most evenings. I wonder why the culture
surrounding startups has gone in the opposite direction.

~~~
lotsofmangos
I suspect people do it as social signaling because they don't want to be
thought of as not dedicated.

If people were more worried about results than appearances, they would not do
this though as working that much leads to stupid mistakes and burn-out.

It might make sense if you are just trying to cash out and want to put on a
good show for investors by sleeping under your desk, though I would think this
only impresses stupid investors.

Is instructive to see the environments where this goes the other way.

In Oxford and Cambridge Universities there is the concept of the _' Grey
Man'_.

These are the people who are seen to work hard and it used to be considered a
terrible affliction and an indication of mediocre talents.

Consider this quote from Stephen Hawking

 _“The prevailing attitude at Oxford at that time was very anti-work. You were
supposed to either be brilliant without effort or accept your limitations and
get a fourth-class degree. To work hard to get a better class of degree was
the mark of a ‘grey man’, the worst epithet in the Oxford vocabulary.”_

 _Hawking calculated that he worked on average for about an hour a day as an
undergraduate physicist: “We affected an air of complete boredom and the
feeling that nothing was worth making an effort for.”_

from here -
[http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/e59f5792-1a23-11e3-b3da-00144feab7...](http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/e59f5792-1a23-11e3-b3da-00144feab7de.html)

------
ChuckMcM
This was a great read. Something to consider in that moment is scale. It is
impossible to be an entire company and survive. A CEO I highly respect told me
that you can move a truck with a go kart engine, a big transmission, and a lot
of coolant, but adding more cylinders is what makes it a truck. He was
explaining to me that 'scaling' people was about figuring out how to take what
someone was doing really really well, and turning that into a process for
doing that thing. Then handing over that thing to the process.

The first startup I joined was run by a guy who had not, to my knowledge, ever
been more than a line manager (directly managing people who did things, versus
managing people who managed people to did things) He had a really really hard
time working with the indirection, unable to feel comfortable that things were
"in control" unless he went and talked to the actual people doing the work
himself. As the company got bigger that became a bigger and bigger issue for
him. He didn't scale, and I could tell that there would come a time when he
would be 110% subscribed with tasks that he couldn't figure out how to
delegate.

The message about getting home though is really really important. Too many
people are sleeping at work because they have no home to go home to any more.
If you can set a goal for 'quality hours with the family per week' and when
that is in jeopardy due to work commitments _restructure work to reduce its
impact_.

------
johnvschmitt
2 big points I've learned & want to share on this topic:

1) In the smart long-term play, family & few close friends are most important.
Everything else (including your startup) is trivial.

2) Even if you value your startup at 100% value (over
family/friends/health/life), you're incredibly short-sited and killing your
own startup baby if you don't have some balance in your life. Startup life is
NOT a sprint. It's a marathon. To give the BEST to your startup, you need to
bring your BEST every day.

Phrased another way, I often ask, "Let's say you're going to be interviewed on
the Colbert Report, or other big-huge-friggin' deal tomorrow, what would you
do today?" Often, people say, "I'll eat well, build something, hug my family,
build something, help someone, build more, chat with a friend, take a walk,
build more, play a game, go to bed early" So, if that's what you do to bring
your BEST tomorrow, then what would you do if you wanted to bring your BEST
EVERY day?

That tends to drive home the message that work-life balance isn't just helping
your life, it's truly what matters to helping your work too.

Corollary: If you're overstressed, you aren't helping your work. Often,
overstressed people at startups will add much more friction in the small team,
hurting efficiency as arguments & disrespect poisons the day's actions. Not to
mention the zombie-brain mistakes in execution when you're not taking proper
care of yourself.

~~~
gerbilly
Totally agree, you have to keep some energy in reserve to handle the
unexpected.

To go further, if you want to do more than just handle the unexpected (which
is kind of like putting out a fire) you will need to bring wisdom to the
situation.

Developing wisdom requires an even greater reserve of energy _and_ some
downtime to reflect.

------
lumberjack
Perhaps there could be something in between a startup and a job as an
employee.

Startups are rewarding because you are not simply an employee but also part
owner and they are hard because you have to undertake a lot of extra work and
responsibility and risk.

Maybe there could be a third way were you are part owner but undertake less
risk and less responsibility and less work. Imagine a startup where instead of
the typical 2/3 founders 3/15 employees you have a 15 employees who all share
an equal amount of ownership and responsibility.

The point of such a startup would be to provide better working terms and
better pay than one would get when working as an employee or contractor but at
the same time lessen exposure to risk and responsibility.

I don't know how doable it is but I always thought that it was strange that
most startups were trying to emulate the same corporate structure the,
founders themselves probably wanted to avoid because it didn't suit them very
well as employees.

Sorry for going of tangent but it's just random idea that crept into my head
and wanted to share.

~~~
archagon
There is such a thing — a cooperative! One famous example is the Cheeseboard
in Berkeley, a cheese shop and pizzeria that has been worker owned and
operated since the 60's with wild success. Seeing how happy, creative, and
productive the staff there is makes me wish that we had more organizations
operating in this manner.

Kind of a tangent, but there's a lot to be said for cooperative living, too.
One of my favorite experiences in college was living in a student cooperative.
There were about 40 of us in a large, early 20th century Victorian house, each
taking on a fair share of maintenance, cooking, and management. Every
decision, including major ones like renovating parts of the house, was made
democratically and collectively: there was no real centralized oversight.
(There was a "central office" for the entire co-op system — itself largely
made up of house representatives — but they mostly stayed out of individual
house affairs.) Important positions such as president or workshift manager
were voted in collectively and had certain benefits, like decreased rent or
less hours required per week. It worked well for the most part, and many
lifelong friendships were forged in the house.

I think it would be an interesting experiment to get a bunch of self-motivated
creative folks together in such an environment and have them work on projects
together. Perhaps the members would be selected by occupation, so that there's
a solid pool of artists, programmers, designers, writers, etc. at all times. A
majority of the money generated from these projects would go towards the
members' collective benefit. Projects would be formed spontaneously, either by
individuals working alone, or by people trying to "recruit" other members —
kind of like how Valve does things.

A combination of cooperative living and cooperative working. I know it's not
for everyone, and maybe it's a pipe dream, but the idea really appeals to me!

~~~
ericd
I agree, and I think a lot of people are at least intrigued by the idea of
something like that. I'm guessing that that last bit is sort of like what an
"artist colony" is, except more multidisciplinary.

------
KobaQ
That's the inevitable consequence of being overambitious. This pattern is the
same, regardless of the area within which these folks try to become more
powerful, rich or famous than others.

At BMW a former director told some trainees that he's the most lonely person
in the world. Lost his wife, kids and friends. Hobbies? None. Money? More than
can be spend. Power? You bet. "Too soon old, too late wise" is true even for
extraordinary achievers like this guy.

I always like to point out to those younger folks that they need to be aware
of their true motivation. To 99 % in the startup scene or at the big companies
it's not to make the world a better place. It's not to be creative and
productive. The main drive is ambition. That's OK, it's human. But it needs to
be controlled. When you are aware of your true selfish motivation, it's easier
to stop when it's all too much. You do it for yourself, not your family (you
would choose a solid 9 to 5 job) or the world.

~~~
ilamont
_To 99% in the startup scene or at the big companies it 's not to make the
world a better place. It's not to be creative and productive. The main drive
is ambition._

I'm not so sure about that. I'm also not convinced "most founders are in it to
get filthy rich," as lemming says elsewhere in this thread. I think there's a
spectrum of motivations, including:

* Ambition

* Creative drive/wanting to build something

* Aversion to corporate culture/large organizations

* Opportunity to make a lot of money

* Social needs

* Other

It's possible to have multiple motivations. But the one that interests me is
"social needs." This includes everything from wanting to work with a great
team to doing something because it's the "hot thing" or the activity that gets
the most respect in the community. The recent news about YC applications
rising 40% YOY may reflect some of that, and also explains the huge turnout
for pitch events, networking sessions, etc.

------
3pt14159
Great article.

There are so many different angles to startup burnout, that sometimes it seems
like we're playing a really rough game like American football, only instead of
head and spine injuries we've got mental health problems and repetitive stress
disorders.

Early in a startup the big enemy is yourself and poverty. Try to get yourself
to finish that feature; to push the product over the line. To persevere after
the launch basically goes unnoticed. The burnout is emotional because it's
rooted in self doubt. Once a startup starts getting traction a different type
of mental stress sets in: a fear of squandering an opportunity. All the late
nights are rooted in the fear that your startup has had some luck and some
traction, and maybe if you don't push so hard it will become another Excite.
Used, but left to the wayside while a better contender came in.

------
gerbilly
It's just a startup-a type of work organization operating in the first world,
staffed by people who can find another job in a few weeks if it should fail.

It's basically an exciting game for privileged people with too much time on
their hands. The worst outcome is you have to go work at a regular job.

Relax, no one is being sent to the scaffold over this!

------
yesimahuman
Wow, much respect for writing this. While my company isn't quite at Dwolla
scale, I've had my own version of too-much-travel this fall, and I am over it.
I realized I was making the most impact back home, helping the team create the
foundation for us to do more with less.

All these conferences and these meetings are rarely world changing. They hold
potential opportunities and the start of relationships, but we never know if
those opportunities would have come to us through cheaper, more effective
means.

Travel bothers me so much because it feels incredibly suboptimal, like I'm
working harder not smarter.

------
moron4hire
One reaction: "grow up". Stop letting other people dictate how you live your
life. That is what parents do for children. Becoming an adult means making
your own decisions about how to spend your time, and when enough is enough.
Grow up. Stop putting other people, ones not even that close to you, first.
Grow up.

------
andrea_s
Aren't we done yet with the rhetoric of "making the world a better
place"/"improving people's lives"? I can't help but think about HBO's Silicon
Valley every time I read this kind of thing...

------
partisan
It's pretty standard to take a break after a long period of hard work.
Especially if it starts to feel like burnout.

I'll probably write an enlightening blog post one day about how sometimes you
have to take a nap during the day, especially if you feel sleepy. I'll
encapsulate it into a life lesson: Don't lie to yourself, you are sleepy so
just take that nap.

------
dmak
Almost 2 years ago, I had three major things going on in my life. I was
working at another startup in San Francisco, finishing my Computer Science
degree from SJSU, and being a boyfriend of a 4 year relationship with my then
girlfriend. At the time, I was really worried about doing well in my career as
well as making sure I don't fail my courses otherwise I would be held back and
be even more miserable. I had to commute between San Jose and San Francisco
every other day. I put much of my time into the startup, and naturally that
took away my time from other things. In hindsight and after reading this blog
post, I realised how much I overlooked and have developed further
understanding on how things played out. But yeah, great blog post, it is
important to learn to identify what is happening and realise the gradual
damages taking place before its broken.

------
markbao
HN'd. Mirror: [https://archive.today/QF25G](https://archive.today/QF25G)

~~~
minikomi
warning : back button breakage.

Awesome , gutsy article though.

------
bakhy
With the advent of startups, this is the new normal for IT workers.

The best part - after all this effort, majority will none the less fail. But
in the meanwhile they will be doing huge amounts of work, while their
investors can breathe easy, no need to worry much about overtimes, vacations,
sick leaves, finding work for people after the project ends, etc.

This system is rigged against us, but a truly IT specific thing is that so
many of us enjoy exploiting ourselves like this. Sure, many people would start
their business anyway, but now we're dealing with a trend, "everyone" is doing
it, it's the hip way to be, and there's very little criticism about this
model, if any. The failures are merely presented as lessons to learn, it's
rarely considered to call the emperor naked, to stop the show.

This text is nice, family is important, but this is from someone who can
afford it, now that he has succeeded. I see no retrospect, no reflection here
- could he have cancelled trips like this years ago, when he was still
fighting? Is that what he is suggesting to people now? I don't think so, and
that makes it all sound just so hollow.

------
calinet6
People ignore the systems surrounding themselves. Their life, the things
supporting their happiness, and the things put in place to ensure your work
functions in your absence, even just in the absence of being at home for
dinner every night.

Put the right systems in place, whether it be delegation, or software, or a
personal task management system (GTD is all about systems), and you don't have
to worry about work all the time. You lead it by leading the right systems to
function and continually improve themselves.

A systems-focused approach to work would improve every company because it's
closer to reality. The reason we don't have the ability to put things down is
because we make ourselves into the critical system of function, and that makes
us part of the machine. Build a better machine you can trust instead. Remove
yourself as a dependency.

Start with Deming:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming)

------
bpmilne
Hey all. You folks killed my weak little blog server. Memory has been maxed
and rebooted. Hopefully will stay online for a bit.

~~~
rocky1138
Why are you mucking with a web server? Take a break!

------
barbudorojo
What surprised me is the "Buy me a coffee" barner. It is supposed they are
having a big success with BBVA selling their product/application. The business
sound really interesting, but "buy me a coffee" doesn't give the impression I
should like to receive for such a product. I was expecting to see something
about how our product is the top one in security or any other required
feature.

Perhaps I am a little harsh, but if you guy are having success now and you
want to give a good impression I should take the banner out.

Also, I find it completely right to rebalance your life, now is the moment in
which you can take a little rest and recover from the strenuous effort and
stress. Is not only a desire, if a necessity for your enterprise to go on,
don't get burned!

Enjoy family, get your batteries full, let your mind and mood recover. Cheers.

~~~
knd775
I would agree if it were the company blog, but this is his personal site. He
may not need the money, but the button uses Dwolla's form builder. He probably
just wanted a reason to use his own product. I don't see much wrong with that.

------
robinduckett
Newsflash: Startup founder struggles with Work / Life balance and ends up not
seeing his wife over Halloween.

------
smoyer
A start-up is a sprint to profitability ... except it's a distance run that
tests your endurance. I did this for a long time and managed a reasonable
balance by paying very close attention to my pace.

When I was sprinting at full pace, I learned that I could only reasonably
expect about 5-6 weeks before I crashed (hard). I always planned for a much
more relaxed pace for a couple months afterwards.

On the other hand, if we had a long-term project I could plan about 55-60
hours per week maximum, but I could sustain that pace almost indefinitely
while still maintaining a life.

If you're doing continuous 80+ hour weeks you need to stop now ... if you
don't, your body will fail you and other parts of your life will degrade
(relationships). It's simply not worth it ... a few extra bills in your pocket
is not going to compensate for missing life.

------
phesse14
I did really like this post. Many thanks for sharing since most of us,
including me, are relunctant to write these kind of things down

Is the price of being an entrepreneur high? Yes, it is. I do not know anyone
enrolled in "creating something from the scratch" that might contradict the
prior statement

Do we have to learn to put some limits to the price we are paying? Definitely
yes, and this guy is putting a name to a lot of muted voices. Personally, I do
not distinct so much between my personal or professional time since in my case
I do love what I do, but I try not to bother F&Fs with conversations about
startups and I do try to talk about other topics. This has double benefits.
One not to bother others (as mentioned) and Two open your mind talking about
things you don't usually have the opportunity to discuss about

------
alrs
Down. Google's cache:

[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:bwQO1V7...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:bwQO1V7radEJ:www.benmilne.com/sometimes-
just-go-home/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=iceweasel-a)

------
nickbauman
I can't help but feel the whole startup culture is a conflict of mission writ
large in two ways. First, you're trying to make people's lives better while
deleting the idea of a better life for yourself. Second, execution is
everything. But when you're working like this the quality of execution
inevitably degrades.

I've done startups. At the end I got better at what I was doing but I wasn't
ultimately proud of the work I did. The startup even succeeded (I helped other
people get rich, I just made a living). Many startups don't even do that.

------
startupgrinder
I wish I had the balls to write this post. Mine would certainly not be so
honest and raw. It's also sad that it comes to this. I get home for dinner but
work till midnight. I'm in town for birthdays but leave at 6am the next
morning. I still talk to my very best friends but no one else. I hope to
heaven that the startup never ruins my marriage but it's not impossible to see
it could happen.

Maybe these "compromises" mean I will never quite get to that level - but
regardless I'm not willing to do compromise them. At any expense.

~~~
jacquesm
> I hope to heaven that the startup never ruins my marriage

That's probably already happening, you're just not being told/aware of it yet.
If you're only in town for birthdays and leave at 6 am the next morning and
wreck your social life you're well underway. Been there, done that so take it
from me as an experience to avoid.

~~~
startupgrinder
Thank you for the concern. This is not happening, I'm just saying that as a
founder I can understand how people's obsession can go overboard and ruin
important stuff. Clay Christensen's "How to Measure Your Life" is the best
book on this subject and is a guiding principle for me. If my wife said "You
need to quit your startup it's ruining us" I would do it in a second. As much
as I love what I do, it's not even close to the plane and importance of my
family.

------
AndrewKemendo
I am constantly the contrarian in these cases, but not for sake of being
contrary, it's just that I genuinely do not relate.

I would kill to be in Ben's place. He is making an impact. We aren't reading
his words because he is a great dad or husband or whatever, he is impacting us
and making us spill thousands of words because he is making something
impactful. I could never turn that off, nothing is as great in my opinion. So
like I said, I don't get it. If anything the more substantive work that is
piled on (not bullshit bureaucratic stuff), the more effective I am across all
components. Maybe I'm wierd.

 _Anyone who does this type of work for a living and responds negatively to
you saying “I’m unable to make it, I miss my family and want+need to spend
some time at home” isn’t a friend, partner, or an investor you should want to
work with anyway._

See, at the same time I understand this also, because not all people are like
me and just love doing good work they are passionate about. So when my co-
founders or partners say things like this, its great because I know that they
need that time and we will adjust things to give it to them.

The last thing I will say is this: No one's legacy is based on how good of a
dad/partner they were.

~~~
untog
_No one 's legacy is based on how good of a dad/partner they were._

What the actual hell? You really think that? Let's take another view: Dwolla
might tank. It could be dead and gone within a year - that's how startups
work. What is "impactful" today can be forgotten within six months.

Your legacy literally _is_ how good a dad you were because the only legacy you
can really rely on (within reason, of course) is your children and your
family. I challenge you to find a father that does not think their "work" with
their child is not "impactful".

I would argue that we are spilling thousands of words on his post because we
identify with it emotionally, not because he is the founder of Dwolla. I
barely know anything about the startup and I care even less, but his words
still resonated with me - that's why I'm here.

~~~
AndrewKemendo
_the only legacy you can really rely on (within reason, of course) is your
children and your family_

Except that is completely untrue. Every family I have ever encountered is
split and bifurcated and generally not that reliable. True they exist, but by
and large families are not that reliable.

I'm a father of three and have studied parenting outcomes for a while now. My
children's outcomes in life are marginally related to how available I am as a
parent beyond a certain minimal threshold - more important are socioeconomic
factors. Even if you take that into account, even the most perfectly raised
children (Whatever that means) have a high chance of winding up in an outcome
that is less than optimal based on parental expectations - assuming that you
have some aspirational expectations to begin with for them.

All that is to say that raising kids is a crap shoot and outcomes, either for
you or for them, do not necessarily correlate with effort spent. Again, caveat
this with "beyond a certain point" which is the bar of not living in poverty -
arguably one major benefit of being successful in business.

------
dddrh
If you have never read The Monk and The Riddle, I would highly suggest it. The
experiences that are shared and the story that is woven lends some really good
perspective on our lack of an ability to focus on what is important now versus
what will be important later.

It's a short read and worth every page.

------
lorenzfx
Looking at dwolla's site and seeing "Eliminate paper checks", I realised how
lucky we in Germany are, that even though Germany is a pretty backwards
country in some regards, at least we managed to get rid of paper checks a long
time ago.

------
tomasien
I just re-booked my flight to get home from Vegas (where Ben just was) a day
earlier as well. My team was super confused about this - but y'all, sometimes
you just need to go home and sometimes you just need to be alone.

------
jayantsethi
One of the most beautiful articles I've read lately.

Reminds me of how I took the decision of coming back to stay with my family
from a far off place, leaving behind an excellent opportunity, just to spend
more time with my lovely family

------
nevergetenglish
What I see and makes me to reflect is that we allow ourselves to be rewarded
(go home) when we are on the way to success. But what happens when we are in
the worse part of a start-up? Harsh, very harsh.

------
edpichler
The best path is the middle.

I learned this in some book about Buddhism. We must have a balanced life. Life
is a long trip. The end is the objective and, of course, very important, but
we also need to enjoy the travel.

------
durbin
How one extremely successful entrepreneur manages his time. -
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8574978](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8574978)

------
scottndecker
Great post. Wish more people would be honest that we aren't invincible. Use
things, love people; not the other way around. Our society needs more
influence on family. Good work.

------
facepalm
What is driving the stressfulness of startup life? Is it the fear of being
overtaken by the competition? Or the excitement of unlimited possibilities, so
you an always try more?

------
cimorene12
Reminds me of Startups Anonymous, except he has the courage to put his name
out there.

[https://startupsanonymous.com/](https://startupsanonymous.com/)

------
benjaminwootton
Great article. I've been doing a startup this year and despite best intentions
it really does take a toll on yourself and people around you.

------
lovelearning
Good for you. If the CEO himself is burning out like this, can't help
wondering how much worse their engineers are burning out.

------
seletz
So I'll stop to pretend to "be at the office" now and actually go home to see
my kids. No joke.

------
xpop2027
Not loading for me, :(

~~~
bbcbasic
[http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=BYigSwhw](http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=BYigSwhw)

------
yegor256a
am I supposed to cry?

------
notastartup
This article really made my stomach churn because it really hit home.

If I had a one tenth of the success these guys are having I'd tell myself to
keep going.

However, working on the project alone, for the past couple of years has been
devastating. I've really no more friends left as a result of blindly
pursuiting my passion. I admit it hasn't even been worth it to this date. But
something, this lizard brain keeps telling me to go go go don't stop.

I've been working on my project off with about 3 years of full time
development and 2 years of working at a job to support myself.

I don't know. I'm super confused and agitated after reading this article. I
had this gut feeling not to read the article but I did it anyways.

I will probably continue. Crazy.

~~~
72deluxe
You sound to be in a bad way.

Remember, people are more important than things.

When you see African countries torn up and people fleeing with nothing, do you
stop and think "why aren't they carrying all their important belongings?" The
belongings and "stuff" are worthless; they can always acquire things again.
What is important to them is their family and friends.

You cannot easily acquire lost friends again. But you can acquire "stuff"
again.

Things don't make you happy; people do.

Out of interest, what have you been working on?

