
The Lost Virtue of Cursive - samclemens
http://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/the-lost-virtue-of-cursive
======
sseagull
I think some of the lamentation about losing cursive romanticizes everything a
bit. When people think of cursive, they think of beautiful, Declaration of
Independence-like script.

I do my family genealogy, which involves reading lots of censuses and
historical documents. For every document with beautiful handwriting, there are
hundreds that look like scribbles and that take me a long time to figure out
what they were writing. And I learned cursive in school. When I find a
document with printed handwriting, I want to go back in time and personally
thank the writer.

There is a difference between what some people imagine cursive to be, and what
it is in practice. People will always have bad handwriting, and bad printing
is easier to read than bad cursive.

See also: Doctor's handwriting

~~~
cheiVia0
When I was in high school, at some point I realized that if I wrote (printed)
my notes too fast, I had a lot of trouble reading them later on.

Since then I switched to cursive, and for the most part stuck with it. I doubt
others would have an easy time reading my fast cursive (doctor-style
scribbles) but at least words have a "shape" I can easily recognize, even if
letters are completely deformed.

Meanwhile, my chickenscratch print took so much effort to decipher that it was
easier to just look up the info elsewhere.

------
leecarraher
[http://freakonomics.com/podcast/who-needs-
handwriting/](http://freakonomics.com/podcast/who-needs-handwriting/) This
podcast I believe is pretty objective. Sets up some of the virtues of
handwriting, discusses that cursive is faster than print, but shorthand is
even faster, and that faster isn't very helpful, so slower is maybe better
because it forces reflection, and idea solidification.

personally the argument, our kids can't read the declaration of independence
and other historical documents, is just silly. All of these documents are
available in a hundred different languages, rendered in any font your heart
desires. if our dystopian future hinges on apparently having the original
declaration of independence in hand, and the issue is that we are unable to
read it because we no longer know cursive, then there are worse things going
on. Namely that we are apparently living in a Michael Bay -esque ridiculous
coincidence universe.

ahhh watch out for that giant robot car whose ex-con mechanic with a heart of
gold used to be an ex cia agent who is the only one who can save us. and his
ex-wife's boss is the leader of the bad guys, but maybe is a good guy?

------
veddox
AFAIK, cursive is still being taught at (most) schools here in Germany,
although most of my peers had abandoned it for print lettering by grade 10.

Actually, when we had out introductory lecture for my university course, the
prof strongly urged us to take notes on paper rather than digitally, as the
added sensory input of the pen aids the memory. I followed his advice, though
probably more because I find paper-based notetaking to be much more efficient
than taking notes with a keyboard. (You're much more flexible when writing on
paper.)

~~~
gumby
My son just graduated and the same thing is true: he's pretty much abandoned
it. He's also stopped using Füllhalter (fountain pens) for which joined-up
letters make more sense.

I have tried various electronic techniques over the years and agree that I
take much more useful notes by hand.

~~~
veddox
I find fountain pens _so_ much nicer to write with than ballpoints. If I need
to write anything longer than a sentence, I would always choose the fountain
pen - it's much gentler on your hand, so you don't tire as quickly, and you
have a finer degree of control, so your handwriting becomes more legible.

~~~
Broken_Hippo
Now I'm wanting to draw with one - I very much understand the hand fatigue as
I get it as well... Along with tennis elbow. Different pens and paintbrushes
have different fatigue rates.

For handwriting, how long did it take you to adjust to it? Is the grip much
different?

~~~
gumby
it's not just that the grip is different but you draw (pull) the pen rather
than push (pushing, especially with the stiff nibs, causes a skip). You grip a
biro much more firmly so that it doesn't move around as you push it. I believe
this is why the fountain pen doesn't fatigue you as much.

------
dugditches
The large issue with cursive is the tools we use.

Back when 'Cursive' was the norm the pens were much different.

I find it harder to write Cursive with a ballpoint vs a fountain/dip/etc pen.

Cursive is easier to make legible when you can vary line thickness.

~~~
tropo
For cursive, the winner is a 0.5 mm mechanical pencil. It doesn't need much
pressure, and it doesn't make a blob if you stop.

------
takk309
Maybe I am a hold out but I write a lot by hand in my day to day work. I take
notes at meetings, when reading documents, and even writing notes to my self.
I am also dyslexic. I find that cursive is easier for me to read and write. My
print handwriting is sloppy and hard for most people to read. However, my
cursive is easier to read. I think this is due to the extra focus that I take
when writing in cursive.

Through university, I took all my notes and did all of my hand work, civil
engineering major, by hand. I never wanted to carry a laptop with me because
it was just extra weight to haul around. Also, to be fair, taking math heavy
notes on a laptop would have been hell. Affordable touchscreens/tablets were
just coming to market when I was in grad school so...

In the professional world, I run into a lot of people that are amazed I write
in cursive. This is probably due to so many engineers using drafting lettering
out of conditioning.

------
VLM
I miss it as much as I miss writing in Graffiti script on palm OS in the mid
90s. In other words, not much.

If all your PDA (smart phone without the phone, essentially) had is what now
counts as a modestly low performance microcontroller, your OCR needs help, so
Graffiti had glyphs like a single simple right angle for a letter T, an F is
that right angle flipped, etc.

There exists a Graffiti keyboard input for Android, just search for it. I have
not used it.

I was brought up in the era of all engineers will use block caps on blueprints
and all scientists will use readable block caps in lab notebooks, so the kids
were put in tracks by middle school therefore I've not written cursive since
6th grade. Possibly the "future english lit" track students continued to use
cursive, I donno.

~~~
jdmichal
For those who don't know, technical lettering is pretty standardized:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_lettering](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_lettering)

> It is used to describe, or provide detailed specifications for, an object.
> With the goals of legibility and uniformity, styles are standardized and
> lettering ability has little relationship to normal writing ability.

------
fennecfoxen
Cursive? Meh. Go italic:

[https://www.amazon.com/Italic-Way-Beautiful-Handwriting-
Call...](https://www.amazon.com/Italic-Way-Beautiful-Handwriting-
Calligraphic/dp/1626540381/)

(Recently back in print!!)

~~~
lawpoop
I would have liked to see a link to Italic handwriting : /

~~~
Nadya
Scroll down and you'll find Italic, Chancery Italic, and Flourished Italic
here: [https://imgur.com/a/GezeK](https://imgur.com/a/GezeK)

~~~
lawpoop
I appreciate it, but without captions or legends, I don't know which is which.

~~~
Nadya
While not all of them do, the images I was referring to include the names at
the top. Here are some direct links:

Italic: [https://i.imgur.com/ntF1pIU.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/ntF1pIU.jpg)

Flourished Italic:
[https://i.imgur.com/d9bQHrn.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/d9bQHrn.jpg)

Chancery Italic:
[https://i.imgur.com/oVUy0dv.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/oVUy0dv.jpg)

------
tcfunk
...or, "A few traditions whose passing I lament".

In all honesty, though, I do a fair bit of calligraphy (I know, that's not
necessarily cursive) and it can be a very soothing and rewarding experience. I
suspect it has to do with using a bit of both halves of the brain, whereas
keyboarding is likely more mechanical.

~~~
tincholio
It does indeed get you to some sort of zen state... it is very relaxing

------
j2kun
Speediness is an curious advantage, because to the contrary I only ever use
handwriting when I want to deliberate and think as slowly as I write (doing
math, writing short fiction, expanding a dense technical idea to a colleague).

From that perspective cursive is a vice.

------
abritinthebay
The hate on cursive seems a peculiar American thing - as is the "it's slower
to write" mantra (when you write it correctly your pen moves less vertically -
the slower axis - so it's actually significantly faster)

Do schools just suck at teaching it?

~~~
falcolas
US cursive looks rather different from the cursive taught in the rest of the
world; its dissimilarities with printed words makes it more of a specialized
task to read and write. It's much more decorative than fast, IMO.

For example: US cursive 'Q' looks like the number 2. 'Z' is the number 2 with
another loop below the line. 'F' and 'T' look like letters you'd see in an
illustrated manuscript as the leading letter.

~~~
abritinthebay
That... sounds horrific.

~~~
falcolas
Yup. To second Tropo below - the cursive I was taught is the D'Nealian Script:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cursive#/media/File:Cursive.sv...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cursive#/media/File:Cursive.svg)

It is not fast, but it does look pretty when written with a steady and
constant hand.

------
joubert
I write cursive on the whiteboard at work. It surprises some to see this
ancient practice.

~~~
sosuke
Cursive on the whiteboard sounds very intriguing. What does it look like and
does anyone ever have any trouble reading it?

~~~
tylorr
My understanding is that many teachers still use cursive on whiteboards and
chalk boards

------
sremani
Ability to write in cursive will actually help on the tablets with pen, IPad
Pro and Surface. I am using more and more cursive than my usual writing when
taking notes on these devices using a pen.

------
Shivetya
My niece and nephew were never taught to read or write cursive and as such my
sister reads to them letters my mom wrote them for the holidays. She also read
old letters from her own grandmother and grandfather.

So its effectively relegated to the dust bin of history for many people. Are
there apps you can use on your phone to photograph and translate it back?

------
chadgeidel
If the reasoning behind learning Cursive script is speed of writing - why not
go all the way and teach shorthand?

------
BrandoElFollito
Everyone is saying in the comments "I also learned cursive". Are there schools
where you do not learn that? In France (and from I can tell - everywhere in
Europe) this is the only writing possible. Adults also write in cursive by
default.

------
douche
Cursive is awful, with no practical redeeming values. The only reason to learn
cursive is if you are a historian who has to delve into primary sources where
it was used. If you want to fuss with it, fine, but like calligraphy, it
should be an art form, rather than something we waste time teaching
universally.

It'd be better if everyone learned mechanical drafting lettering[1]. It's not
particularly difficult, and it is clear and unambiguous and everyone can read
it with ease.

[1] [http://rvhs-denyer.com/web-back/cad/units&tasks/led-
ch-5-let...](http://rvhs-denyer.com/web-back/cad/units&tasks/led-
ch-5-lettering/led-lettering-ch-5-text.htm#5.1_Single-Stroke_Lettering_)

~~~
chadgeidel
It's unfortunate that your _opinion_ is being downvoted and refuted with
other's _opinions_.

~~~
joezydeco
In my particular case above, I have concrete evidence it has value. Not really
an opinion at all.

Teachers and therapists have independently confirmed it works for my son's
case.

~~~
chadgeidel
I appreciate your specific comment with evidence, but it originally was
unnecessarily hostile. I see you've edited it to remove that.

Most people replying here are not citing specific examples - just spouting
their anecdotes.

~~~
joezydeco
If one chooses that as a username, I'd figure it was hostile to begin with.

------
welshtape
Cursive is slower to write and harder to read. Also, people outside the
examination and testing system don't used handwriting anymore (except for
squiggling their signatures occasionally!)

Although I myself was taught 'joined up' handwriting at school I have chipped
away at it over the years to create a more convenient mix of print and
cursive.

e.g. the tailed letters ygjq(f) slow down writing considerably if you join
them up. Where the nib ends on the right hand side of the letter (i.e. in the
direction of the flow of text) then joining is fast e.g. 'c','e'

------
lasermike026
I am teaching my children cursive. It should be learned and used. Stuff that
in your core curriculum.

~~~
Nullabillity
Why? Because you miss it?

------
gr3yh47
When I was in second grade (1992) the teacher told us if we didn't learn
cursive, we'd never be able to keep up taking notes in college classes. I told
her by the time we were in college we'd have computers we could take to class
with us.

She scoffed at me.

I definitely got a laptop as a high school graduation gift.

In your face, second-grade-teacher-whose-name-i-dont-remember

~~~
jandrese
I went to college before laptops were affordable to college students, so all
of my notes were still on paper. I found that I had to write them in
manuscript if I wanted to be able to read them later, plus it was faster than
writing the cursive anyway.

It always seemed to me that cursive was optimized for quill or fountain pens
and was kind of counterproductive if you had a pencil or a ballpoint pen. I
found it far too easy for words to devolve into just a bunch of loops with
cursive.

~~~
Palomides
>>By the time that I had covered two sides of a small piece of stationery, my
letters tended to get sloppier, and my right hand was cramping.

>It always seemed to me that cursive was optimized for quill or fountain pens

Definitely agree, cursive felt only marginally nicer to use than printing
until I used a fountain pen; with one, it is faster and more physically
comfortable (in addition to being more fun and prettier). Anyone here who is
still attached to cursive is strongly recommended to buy a cheap fountain pen.

~~~
sosuke
Any brand preference? The varieties of "cheap" are many.

~~~
gumby
Start with the Lamy or Pelikan pens that are mandatory in German schools. They
have very stiff nibs which won't break if you apply the same pressure you're
used to with a byro/ball point or pencil. You can get them in the US. There
are fun ones made of wood with brightly colored caps and ends.

Once you are used to them you can use a more expensive (or cheapo) pen with a
softer nib. That well let you write both more clearly and much much faster.

Note that a lot of fancy fountain pens are (IMHO) way too heavy and clunky for
everyday writing.

I can take notes with a fountain pen way faster than with a byro and the
resulting ones are more legible (I have dreadful handwriting). Also I can
write this way for hours without cramping which I can't say about a byro since
those require more pressure and use push strokes.

If I don't have a fountain pen I have some Stabilo gel pens that are the least
crappy alternative. The fountain pen is pretty well adapted to handwriting. I
prefer to type but there are many cases where that is an inferior option.

