
Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center - ruchir_21hj
http://www.wired.com/2014/11/utah-considers-cutting-water-nsas-monster-data-center/
======
scintill76
Meh, according to the article, NSA already has a water deal until 2021, which
this bill is not attempting to change. I remember hearing about trying to cut
off their water months ago; was an opportunity missed, or was it already too
late then? How might they cut off the water sooner than 2021?

~~~
mseebach
> How might they cut off the water sooner than 2021?

They won't. It's called "grandstanding". Welcome to politics.

Also, they second this is about to get real, the NSA announces the redundancy
plans (easily 100s of "high tech economy jobs") and everyone runs screaming
for the hills.

------
Osiris
> “What’s noteworthy is no one on the panel said: ‘Hey, wait a minute, we
> can’t do this,'” he says. “They had some specific concerns about the
> language of the bill, but there was no outright opposition.”

That's pretty surprising given how incredibly conservative/Republican the
state of Utah is. I'd be surprised if the bill passed (and if it was it would
surely be caught up in litigation), but kudos to someone in such a
conservative area recognizing that personal liberty is more important than
security.

~~~
gliese1337
Why should that be surprising? Republicans / conservatives are all about
personal liberty. And reducing taxes, which seems relevant in this case. The
justification given in the article for supporting the bill is that they don't
want to support the NSA "on the back of our citizens", after all.

~~~
GFK_of_xmaspast
Generally only personal liberty for people like them, tho.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Not sure why you and /u/spacemanmatt were downvoted. Republicans are blocking
a bill in the Senate currently to curtail the NSA's surveillance dragnet:
[http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/19/us/nsa-phone-
records.html?...](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/19/us/nsa-phone-
records.html?_r=0)

If they're for personal liberty, its not for Joe Public.

------
prbuckley
If every state stood up and passed bills like this the NSA couldnt have giant
data centers in this country.

~~~
jsmthrowaway
As shocking as it might be, the NSA has other things to do which actually are
crucial for national security. Reforming the agency will go much further than
basically saying "you can't have cool servers or toilets that flush."

I know hating the NSA is en vogue but seriously. This is almost as bad as
stonewalling and other hostilities toward other branches of government simply
because the opposite party is in power (that goes both ways, before you think
I'm attacking the right). The NSA committed grievous sin. I'm as upset about
it as you. Even so, it baffles me that we would be having this conversation
about _water._

God, stuff like this just depresses me. And that you love it, too. That
depresses me as well. It's a cheap "rah rah go Utah sticking it to the man"
puppet show that is ultimately meaningless, but you and many like you just eat
it up.

\--

Edit: Between this stupid "you're submitting too fast" barrier that I've never
seen until recently on a >year account, downvoting being blessed as okay to
represent disagreement, graying comments as a result which silences
disagreement and causes a dogpile effect, arbitrary shadowbans in 2014, and my
critique of this political theater being interpreted as defense of the NSA or
an advertisement that I need the condescension of having an intelligence
agency explained to me (better: I'm not going to answer your question but
anybody that passed US History knows the answer), HN has done a pretty good
job of silencing opposing thought. I asked a _question_ and it's barely
legible. Even now, watching people Cmd+F my username and downvote every hit
between refreshes. You sure showed me for not thinking like you!

Since I disagree with many things HN holds dear, and since the people and
technology have made clear that's not welcome, after six years of contributing
to Hacker News on various accounts, I'm done. I can't take the technology nor
the people any more.

It amazes me how hostile HN is now, both socially and technically, and yet
people remain. The crowning irony is that people here complain about becoming
Reddit, yet on some of the very lesser-known subreddits I've had literally
life-changing conversations. Here it's just bickering to see who is more
right. Nothing of value comes of this thread, or the hundreds before it.
Nothing. I want a refund of my time wasted here.

~~~
thizzbuzz
I am not convinced that the NSA has any purpose. What do you think is
necessary about the NSA?

~~~
optimusclimb
Possibly one of the most naive comments I've ever seen on here.

We keep a military at the most basic level - so that another country can't
send a boat full of troops over here, or airplanes filled with troops - invade
us - and take over. In other words, basic protection against normal acts of
war. Imagine if you, thizzbuzz, suddenly awoke tomorrow and found out the
dictator of some small European country died, and you were the heir apparent.
What would you want to have to make sure that Russia didn't just come in the
next day with tanks and declare your country was now theirs? Oh - that would
be a military.

So great, you've made sure you have that. Now at the very least, if some other
country violates your sovereignty, you can at least put up a fight, and it
will be a visible spectacle to the rest of the world, which might come in and
try and help you.

Next up - Inhabitants of your country speak one language. The rest of the
world speaks other languages. If a newspaper in a neighboring country starts
publishing articles calling for an invasion of your country, in a language
most of your inhabitants don't speak...isn't that something you'd like to be
aware of? Who do you expect to be responsible for keeping tabs on that? Are
you just going to hope that one of your citizens keeps tabs on it for you and
drops you an email (at dictator@smalleurocountry.eu) to let you know you might
want to be on the lookout for an invasion? Or would your citizens prefer your
government is a little proactive about this? (assuming you're a benevolent
dictator that wants to keep his country.) Sounds to me like you want some sort
of government agency that keeps tabs on such things - you know, for NATIONAL
SECURITY.

What you DON'T want, if you have an American mindset, is for that agency to be
spying on all of its native citizens. That doesn't mean you don't want such an
agency to exist.

~~~
twombly
Part of the reason people would even want to send a boat full of troops is
because of the way our military interacts with the rest of the world. It's an
unfortunate situation to be in but that doesn't mean it needs to continue
forever. If we would just scale back the size of our military presence it
would definitely be safer for everyone.

~~~
cmdkeen
Safer for who? Probably not for Europe, certainly Eastern Europe who see what
Putin is doing in Ukraine. Probably not for Japan and South Korea, both of
whom rely on US military backing against undemocratic opponents who have
designs on their territory.

US military strength underpins the current Western democratic system, which
keeps the US wealthy through trade and commerce.

~~~
tobltobs
It would be safer for europe if the US wouldn't act like an idiot in the
arabic world. Or at least if they would learn something from their zillions of
mistakes. Islamic terrorism kills people everywhere, but mostly not in the US.

------
jackhammer
> The bill, H.B. 161, directs municipalities like Bluffdale to “refuse support
> to any federal agency which collects electronic data within this state.”

What about the IRS? Doesn't actually every government agency collect data?

~~~
jsmthrowaway
NOAA and the National Weather Service, within Commerce, came to mind for me.
No more weather forecasts for Utah, since municipalities would be prevented
from providing utilities to federal agencies that collect data. Like the
temperature.

Thankfully, reading the bill paints a little more optimistic of a picture, but
I can still see several interpretations of the wording that could have
unintended consequences.

------
GordonS
It's a nice thought, but it'll never happen. It'll be a 'matter of national
security', supporters will be branded 'terrorists' or other such nonsense.

~~~
kristopolous
Don't let them control the narrative. The discourse they have is absurd.

Their system not only doesn't work but creates haystacks so big that needles
get deeply hidden and no real intelligence happens.

The rationale for the spy-everyone story is such an implausible fantasy. We
have to stop letting people get away with saying it without being challenged.

This needs to stop.

~~~
venomsnake
It is even worse. The amount of data NSA stores makes them an even juicer
target for infiltration, subversion and otherwise gaining access to data they
have collected.

~~~
spacemanmatt
This is such a scary side to consider. Most people who are just fine with
their own government building dossiers right off the wire, and potentially
losing said dossiers in haystacks, don't consider that foreign double-agents
will become quite adept at searching the haystacks loyal agents have
neglected.

~~~
kristopolous
It becomes even more bizarre when you consider that the NSA has been caught
tapping foreign nationals and diplomats.

Two countries in conflict may hack the US as a proxy to get at the others
communications - with no direct interest in the US at all.

This is a factually possible scenario. It's the unchecked blank check
bureaucratic process. This the natural output given such input parameters.

We need a way to make this more real to people:

Dysfunctional projects of grandeur is how organized people respond to no
oversight and unlimited funding. They will invent justifications to perpetuate
their purpose. This happens through an utter failure of discretion in
governments, startups, not-for-profits, wars, corporations... everything.

Preventing it is Our Job to make a functional society.

------
hellbanner
"refuse to support any federal agency". Interesting -- so local law
enforcement can still collect data, which I think is what people want. A lot
of the strangeness of technology we experience isn't that something can be
done, it's that lots of things can be done at massive scale.

------
jlgaddis
I don't think this bill stands a snowball's chance in hell of passing with
language like:

 _> “refuse support to any federal agency which collects electronic data
within this state.”_

Wikipedia has a huge list of U.S. federal agencies [0]. Can someone provide an
example of a federal agency that _doesn 't_ collect data in Utah?

Skimming through the list, I would expect that nearly all of them _do_ collect
data in Utah.

(Admittedly, I didn't read the bill so it's quite possible that "support" and
"data" are very specifically defined.)

[0]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_federal_agencies_in_th...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_federal_agencies_in_the_United_States)

------
madaxe_again
_IN 2021_.

So even if they pass this next year, the NSA have six years to sue them and do
whatever they like - i.e. ruin the lives of anyone who opposes them, and any
legislators who voted in favour of this, and then maybe implant their own
people, who'll vote that everyone from Utah is now an NSA-serf and must
provide blood for cooling.

More effective would be a cunningly managed massive algal bloom upstream from
their intakes, which would neatly clog all the things, and hopefully cause a
large fire, localised entirely in their information nexus of doom.

------
yc1010
If I were a UTAH politician pushing for this I would be very careful now,

You might just wake up one morning with a squad of armed policemen storming
your house who will "find" child porn on your computer.

~~~
throwawayaway
If I were in charge of implementing the retribution I would pick something far
more innocuous than that, drunk driving, cheating on wife scandal, some sort
of tax fraud, lest it give the game away.

------
BonoboBoner
Does the guy in charge want his most private search history leaked? Because
that is how you get your most private search history leaked.

~~~
spacemanmatt
Also, ants.

------
teekert
Hey, you guys didn't even want the Freedom act, this will not be passed. We
all know how things go over there, across the pond, we saw House of Cards ;)

~~~
jsmthrowaway
We got _House of Cards_ from you, didn't we?

~~~
buro9
teekert is from Holland, so no.

The original House of Cards was British, though it doesn't really reflect how
UK politics are.

Yes, Minister comes closer:
[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080306/](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080306/)

Though that implies that through the farce we get things done, which hasn't
been true for a while.

Not sure what this has to do with the water supply to a datacenter though.

~~~
jsmthrowaway
Sorry, "across the pond" pretty much says "I'm British" to me, because we say
that almost exclusively about you (IME). I don't keep up with where folks are
from.

Anyway, agreed, it's an off topic diversion.

~~~
teekert
You're right, sorry, it was off-topic and with a big wink. But you know how it
will go, the data center will never be without water. It isn't much different
here (indeed in the Netherlands) I can tell you.

------
ozh
I don't even see this as a potential slightest chance.

------
jokoon
why would they need that much water anyways ?

~~~
CHY872
It's not much water. If you have a field of corn 700m by 700m, it needs that
much water to grow.

~~~
jokoon
But they're not growing corn. I mean what would the NSA need water for ?
Drinking ? Can't they just ship bottled water ? Do they really have that much
personnel there ?

~~~
spacemanmatt
I'm slightly surprised this is a question. Water is part of many cooling
systems. They're running a server farm. Surely they have some other uses for
it, but cooling their server farm is the big, obvious application.

~~~
jokoon
since when does cooling consumes that much water ?

