
No tipping means better business - wlimdo
http://tastefulventures.com/death-to-tipping
======
ezoe
As a person who was born and living in a country which has no tipping culture.
The tipping sucks.

I should have been fully informed how much should I have to pay before I
purchase something or some service. Any extra demand from agreed amount should
be illegal.

I also don't want to waste my precious time on paying the tip for calculating
tax.

The worker's salary is a employer's responsibility. If the the worker become
underpaid without the tipping, then the worker is underpaid by the employer.

~~~
grecy
Worse still, tipping is merely a way of keeping class hierarchies, and it's
disgusting.

When a person walks into a restaurant in the USA they can waive a $20 bill at
a waitperson and say _if_ you do what I want, and _if_ I like you, and _if_
I'm feeling generous, I _might_ give you some of this.

Of course, they might not too.

Labor laws, minimum wage, etc are all there to make this illegal in a work
contract, and it should be illegal for tipping too because it's gross.

~~~
tjic
> When a person walks into a restaurant in the USA they can waive a $20 bill
> at a waitperson and say if you do what I want, and if I like you, and if I'm
> feeling generous, I might give you some of this.

So you also dislike bonuses for white collar professionals?

Because it's exactly the same thing.

~~~
gonzo41
I worked in finance sales for about 3 years. Bonuses are fun but I have seen a
lot of misconduct in the pursuit of a bonus. Maybe its just banking...

I'm all for the no tipping and i happily work without a bonus. And i would
expect other to as well. If you can't show up and be consistent in performance
without a carrot then thats maybe not a great reflection of how you work and
what you value.

~~~
freddyc
> _Bonuses are fun but I have seen a lot of misconduct in the pursuit of a
> bonus. Maybe its just banking..._

It's not just banking. I was horrified at some of the behavior I saw from the
sales folks at a software start-up I worked for (including the CEO). As a
sales lifer, our CEO came up with some pretty generous comp packages for the
sales team that promoted bad behavior and short-term "wins" that the rest of
us would be cleaning up for months.

~~~
vostok
I agree with this so much. Because of strict regulations, non-financial sales
is infinitely worse than anything you'll see in finance.

------
makecheck
Tipping is also extremely inconsistent in at least three ways.

One is the idea of a percentage: how does that make _any_ sense? When I go out
for a rare nice dinner and the tip _alone_ ends up being $20 or so, I ask
myself: did this person/restaurant really do _any_ more than the server of the
last _entire meal_ that cost $20? Of course not, and yet somehow it would look
weird to pay $40 for a $20 meal with tip, for the same service?

Another inconsistency is _where_ to tip. Yes, tip at restaurants but what
about the zillion other places that sometimes explicitly and often implicitly
expect tips? Do we have to slip a dollar to just about everyone in case they
expect a tip?

And finally, the inconsistency in who tips. Sometimes I tip generously because
I _assume_ there will be other people who just don’t tip at all, or tip
poorly, and I feel some obligation to balance the pot. I don’t know why, it
just seems like the right thing.

It would make a lot more sense to end all these charades and just show exact
prices. (While we’re at it, let’s make sure utility companies do the same, up
front, no fees.)

~~~
hsitz
Yes. Another inconsistency involves the point in time at which a tip is
expected. Historically tips came after the meal (or other service), and in
theory you would tip well if you were happy with service, and badly or not at
all if you were unhappy. In itself that made a little bit of sense (w/o
considering the contradictions you mentioned).

But nowadays you're often expected to tip at beginning of meal (i.e., when you
order and pay at register), and your tip is not tied to quality of service at
all (and very often there isn't even any actual service, other than taking of
order and preparation of food). As an older person this strikes me as bizarre;
grew up in atmosphere where tips were always after meal and explicitly tied to
quality of service.

~~~
dragonwriter
I think that it's a mistake to think that because all POS systems used at
restaurants support tips and you interact with that system up front at fast
casual restaurants, therefore a tip is expected up front at those restaurants;
it's generally not (and I've even seen some such places that use touchpad
rather than write-on-reciept entry for tips pre-select "no tip"); virtually
every source I've seen recommends that, if you tip at all at such places, you
carry cash and tipping after service at such places [0]. And tipping at fast
casual restaurants is far from a universal norm in the US. [1]

[0] e.g., [http://vegasseven.com/2016/03/16/really-need-leave-tip-
fast-...](http://vegasseven.com/2016/03/16/really-need-leave-tip-fast-casual-
eateries/)

[1] [https://www.statista.com/statistics/322702/consumer-
tipping-...](https://www.statista.com/statistics/322702/consumer-tipping-
amounts-at-fast-casual-restaurants-us/)

~~~
jghn
You're absolutely right however I'd argue that the presence of that tip line
there leads people to feel bad and leave something there, which starts the
feedback loop going to the point where it is/will be expected

~~~
seangrogg
At that point it is just the psychological impact you allow suggestions to
have on you. One could probably make an "employee-owned" store (WinCo, Trader
Joes) with lovely staff and get away with doing this to sweeten the pot for
employees.

~~~
hsitz
You say "just" the psychological impact. Which is of course true, but I would
leave out the "just" and emphasize that, yes, this is all about psychological
impact. I go to these kind of POS restaurants/coffeshops all the time, and I
can't recall one where it didn't have a tip screen. I know of several that are
also set up so that "no tip" is not even one of the options, the only easy
options you have are to select 10%, 15%, 20%, and if you want to leave no tip
you have to select 'custom' and then set it to 0.00. This is all about
psychological impact.

RE psychological impact: It has often crossed my mind, but I have never
investigated, whether the employee on the other side of the POS screen sees
whether I have entered a tip or not after I click 'DONE' and the screen is
swiveled back around. My decisions are mostly based on thinking they _can_ see
this, and I would be less likely to leave a tip, or more likely to leave
smaller tip, if I knew that they don't see this info.

~~~
nommm-nommm
Not only that but you've got people behind you in line who can see what you
are doing, and you don't want them judging you! What if you we with a date, or
a friend, or your boss or coworkers? They can see the screen and you want
signal you are a good person to these people.

~~~
dragonwriter
A good person, by the standards of tipping culture, tips appropriately after
service; tipping before service destroys the link between service and tip that
is the fundamental conceit of the tipping culture.

Visibly tipping before service is not signalling that you are a good person.

~~~
hsitz
That is precisely the thing. The link between service and tip _was_ the
"fundamental conceit of tipping culture". But no longer. You simply tip for
certain kinds of jobs (e.g., coffeeshop baristas) and not others (McDonald's
cashiers). It is pointless to try to make sense out of it; it makes no sense.

------
okonomiyaki3000
Having lived in Japan for a long time, I kind of dread visiting America
because of the whole nonsense of tipping (and lot of other reasons, really).
There's simply no concept of it here and yet the service is excellent. I don't
know what the typical wage is but I know people who work in service jobs and
seem to have a lot more disposable income than their counterparts in the US.

I also know people who work as servers and bartenders in the US and
(predictably) they hate the idea of ending tipping even if it means a higher
base wage. I suspect they're wrong but then I don't have to walk in their
shoes.

~~~
turndown
I've worked as both a server and a delivery driver, and even after having left
both jobs I'd still be in favor of tipping because I think it incentivizes the
worker to do well at their job. The US simply doesn't have the same culture
Japan has.

That said, travelling to the US shouldn't be handicapped by a fear of tipping.
Don't tip, or do, but not going because of it is an unfortunate choice.

~~~
zuppy
I don't think it does. Tipping is expected even if a bad service is being
provided. I live in a country where you have to give tips everywhere and
everywhere the service is awful. Why not be fair and pay the employee well
(and also pay taxes for that amount).

edit: I was thinking about how to award good employees and I think it's
simple: give a small paper form at the end, where people will provide ratings
for the service provided. Not all of them will fill them, of course, but I
think you will get some feedback about who are your best employees and who are
the worst. Also, regarding tips, how do they help the kitchen staff (in the
restaurants, you can find other examples on other businesses)? That sistem
isn't fair.

~~~
hayd
The difference between bad service and good service might only be 15% vs 20%
and IME most American's do not tip punitively anyway, and tip the same no
matter what.

The employer is in a much better position to assess staff performance than
customers... And it's not the customers job.

If a waiter sucks they won't fire themselves just because they're only getting
15% tips.

~~~
freeflight
>The employer is in a much better position to assess staff performance than
customers... And it's not the customers job.

I disagree, after all it's the waiter who interacts with the customer most,
while the employer mostly can only watch from afar or has other (better)
things to do.

In that regard a 5% difference on the tip won't do much at all. If the waiter
expects to get tipped anyway, regardless of how bad the service was, then he's
far more likely to give bad service and just get 5% less tip.

But if getting any tip at all depends on the quality of service, then waiters
at least have to try to deliver some decent service, instead of just doing an
half-arsed job and getting their "guaranteed", although somewhat smaller, tip.

~~~
hayd
If the manager can't tell that the customers are having a bad time they have
no business running a restaurant. IME in the best places the manager comes to
the table at the end (after entree is served or pre-bill) and ask whether
you're having a good time / experience / meal / etc.

At any rate, I've not heard of tips being collated by the manager, and the
employees with the smallest tips fired/disciplined... but perhaps it does
happen? Unless that's the case IMO customers aren't assessing performance in a
meaningful way.

> But if getting any tip at all depends on the quality of service

In the US it does not, service has to be DIRE to get 0.

------
oddlyaromatic
Here's a pickle: I agree with the direction of this article, but I don't agree
with most of the individual points and statements. I think the expectation of
tipping in the US is in general a bad thing, but has enough upsides for
business owners and some higher-earning servers (and even some customers) that
it will be hard to dislodge. I also think the incentive for any business to
change is probably not as high as the author's wishful thinking makes out.

I mostly disagree that "it’s robbery", or it's some kind of unpleasant
surprise at the end of the meal for the customer. Tipping is not a secret. You
know it going in. You might not like it but it's not a new thing that gets
sprung on you at the end of the meal. If you can't afford to tip at the level
you want to, you probably won't enjoy eating there. It is too costly for you
regardless of the printed menu prices, because you know in advance that if you
experience service you really love, you're going to be delighted and you'll
want to be generous with a tip - but if you feel like you can't afford the
extra 20%, that will be unpleasant for you and the server.

Printed Price + Tip + Tax is the cost of many services in the US. It is not an
ambush. I still prefer non-tipping cultures, like where I grew up, but I
accept that this is the real cost of things here.

There are complexities related to the psychology of putting cheaper prices on
the menu than you really end up paying, I agree with that, but it is not as
simple as many of us seem to think.

Much of this article, and many of these comments, seem to ignore the realities
of the complicated and entangled cultural accident that tipping the US is. It
might be better to unravel it - but it will be difficult, and it will have
costs.

~~~
return0
> has enough upsides for business owners and some higher-earning servers

You don't need to mandate tips from everyone and their brother to do it. High-
earning servers who serve the specialty needs of the rich will always earn
their high tips. It's the fact that it's expected from everyone that's
annoying.

~~~
oddlyaromatic
Yes, it is annoying. My point is just that it being annoying doesn't mean that
is easy to solve, or that the cost of solving the annoyance in a non-
systematic way is worth it (i. e., trailblazing restaurants forge ahead on
their own, instead of, say, legislation about it).

Also, most proposed solutions seem to involve raising the base cost to the
customer... at which point the customer is no better off, and has instead lost
the freedom to tip low or nothing if they choose, for whatever reason, to do
so.

Tipping is not mandated, though. Unless there is an automatic service charge,
in which case it is not exactly tipping. It's just a fee, like your parking or
anything else to be factored in to the overall cost of the meal.

------
nommm-nommm
I read an argument once that that tipping is probably illegal under US
employment law because, in practice, its racist. Research indicates that
servers who are ethnic minorities are tipped less than white women, who are
tipped most. Sure the employer isn't doing the discrimination themselves but
they are setting up compensation scheme that, in practice, is discriminatory.
This is called "adverse impact" in US employment law and is still illegal,
there doesn't have to be intent.

Maybe challenging tipping in court would be the best way to eliminate it. I'd
be interested in reading the ruling no matter the outcome.

EDIT: Quick Google, Here's some research on the subject
[http://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?artic...](http://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1030&context=articles)

As an aside, I actually went to a pretty expensive restaurant where the busboy
did most of the work. The only thing the waiter did was take our order, ask if
everything was ok, asked if we wanted another (paid) drink (the busboy
refilled our water several times), and brought us the check. They busboy did
everything that wasn't money oriented. I asked him if he got tips, he said he
got 10%. 10% of the compensation for at least 50% of the work! I noticed all
the busboys there had something in common - they were all black teenagers. The
waitstaff also wore button down shirts and ties and the busboys wore polo
shirts. I was extremely uncomfortable with the situation.

~~~
wccrawford
It seems like you're only classifying the physical labor as "work", and
ignoring the skill and effort it takes to do all the stuff a waiter/waitress
does. There's a lot of memorization involved, being able to answer a lot of
different questions, making sure the meal gets delivered as soon as possible,
with the right stuff, and checking back at the correct times to see if
anything else is needed, including drinks. It's a lot harder than it seems.

The bussing jobs are a lot more physical and there's less to think about.

Also, he gets 10% of the tip... But where does the rest go? You're assuming
the other 90% goes to the waiter/waitress, but it's possible a large portion
of it goes to the kitchen staff.

~~~
shanemhansen
As someone who worked in the restaurant industry, and who's immediate and
extended family worked in the restaurant industry, this feels like:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism_of_small_difference...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism_of_small_differences)

I've worked at pretty nice restaurants and while attitudes like yours were
pretty pervasive, the only real difference between bussing and waiting was
that wait staff was over 21 and thus able to serve alcohol.

I can also tell you from years of experience that waiters are the most stuck
up classist poor people I've ever seen.

~~~
nommm-nommm
In this particular case the waiter didn't even bring us the alcohol, someone
else did. Bartender? Runner? Who know, but it wasn't the waiter (or the
busboy).

------
sundvor
This works perfectly well in Australia, where tipping is entirely optional and
not necessarily expected - however can still be done, if you feel like it.

In the advent of tap based payments especially - which is now ubiquitous in
Australia - and you just tap your phone / card / device to the terminal which
already shows the bill, I'd say tipping happens mainly in higher end
restaurants.

There's certainly no lack of restaurants in Melbourne - with plenty of people
enjoying the vast array of options for eating out. I for one am happy to not
have to worry about tipping on everyday meals, however on special occasions I
will add say 5-10% if particularly pleased with the service.

~~~
Galaxeblaffer
This ! This is exactly the same in Denmark. Tips are included in the price,
but it is still custom to tip if the service is good and you can afford it
usually around 5%.

~~~
Svip
No, tips are not included in the price. I think you are confusing tips with
salary. And tips in Denmark seldom tends to have any relation to the price of
the meal.

~~~
Galaxeblaffer
Yes.. tips are technically included in the price since the waiters union made
an agreement with the employers union that waiters salaries should be covered
fully by the employer. And yes tips often has a relation to the price of the
meal that again often has a relation to the level of service.. If you are just
out of school or still studying then it might be different for you which makes
the system even better since you are not expected to even tip and therefore
pay what you feel like.

------
surrealvortex
Unless everyone decides to kill tips all at once, this will never work out. No
server will work for a fixed 20% increment when they have the potential to get
a lot more than that, especially on Saturday nights. There have been plenty of
examples of this not working out [1].

[1]
[http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/05/15/478096516/why...](http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/05/15/478096516/why-
restaurants-are-ditching-the-switch-to-no-tipping)

~~~
csydas
Very rarely do I cite market forces to address social problems, but to me this
feels like an appropriate situation for it. Restaurants are constantly getting
applications, and many who do not do well on high-tip nights will appreciate
the stable paycheck. I won't put non-sense statistics to it, but while many
servers do earn huge paychecks from tips, many others scrape by and fight for
hours at minimum wage and have the constant threat of termination looming over
them when they aren't able to get enough tips to cover their wages and the
restaurant has to pay the difference. (Assuming the restaurant is even
operating on the level)

There will be a period of social adjustment and probably some resentment as
tipping restaurant hold-outs have servers that brag about huge payouts. But
over time the more stable paycheck will be more reliable and better for
servers, and while some servers may leave over lack of tips, they will soon
find it difficult to find a place that does have a tipping policy.

~~~
Klathmon
But part of the problem is that the tipping-culture already VERY quickly
corrects that problem.

Restaurants generally over-staff, and tend to get really cutthroat about who
stays and who gos when it's needed. A place I worked when I was younger would
regularly take the lowest performer off of saturday nights every saturday
night.

The ones who aren't making a huge amount of money on the busy nights are
already removed from it before they can even think to complain about it.

And it was a very "open secret" that if the restaurant needed to "supplement"
your wage for ANY reason, you were going to be gone the next week. I saw it
happen many times. So it was somewhat common for the wait staff to "pad" their
own wages with tips if they had a bad week.

So now you get the situation that everyone involved wants to keep tipping.

* Well-performing waiters want to keep tipping as they make a lot of money, not tips means a huge pay-cut.

* Under-performing waiters want to keep tipping because they know the second the restaurant needs to pay their wage, they will be the first to go. So it's either keep their low-paying job, or have no job.

~~~
csydas
I disagree with the conclusion since the premise (tipped wages make for
unstable work) is exactly what the restaurant owners are complaining about,
and many servers do as well. As others replied, the high payout often
overshadows the rainy days for those servers lucky enough to get a killer
night of tips. They remember that because it's an actual event as opposed to
the night the spent not earning money while looking at their phone. In the
long term it's unsustainable and it is more of a problem for restaurant owners
than most want to admit.

There will be holdouts no doubt but overall the rest of the world has no lack
of people willing to wait tables. They just get a steady pay check out of it
instead of hoping for hours.

------
legohead
Went to a revolving sushi bar tonight. Everything was automated. They even had
a touchpad where you can put in orders (like miso ramen soup), which get
delivered by a belt. The only thing the servers did was sit us and bring us
water. We asked them to replace a leaking soy sauce container and they never
did.

We tipped 0$ -- there was essentially no service. I kinda felt bad, but
talking it over with my wife, I couldn't really find a reason _to_ tip.

~~~
surrealvortex
I also don't understand tipping at food carts. Customers stand in a line to
pay and get their food, and are also expected to tip (either via Square or
through tip jars).

Edit: the expectation is generally implicit, and while standing in line, I
can't help but notice that most customers hit the minimum tip percentage on
Square, which is usually 15%

~~~
zeroer
IIRC with a few extra clicks on Square you can find a menu that will give you
a "no tip" option. It's definitely hidden on purpose.

~~~
idunno246
ive never seen a square display without a no tip option, and I'm pretty sure
the restaurant is who decides what options are there

~~~
zeroer
You're right that the restaurant probably decides. The option has always been
there when I looked. When it doesn't, I'll refuse to pay.

------
dustinmoris
Oh my god this guy is a freaking genius! He totally cracked the restaurant
code!

> "Make your food delicious."

No shit? That could possibly make customers happy?

> "Next, consider cooking an art form."

Aha, okay...

> "Go ahead: Kill tips and list a fair price for your bowl of brisket pho,
> grilled lamb shawarma, or omakase."

Haha, okay... well if it's this easy... how could everyone get it so wrong?
Damn!

\---

FYI - I never felt uncomfortable to tip in a restaurant. I go even as far as
that I don't dine in restaurants which have a no tip policy or where the tips
go to the owner instead of the staff.

Also, restaurants already charge a fair price. It's one of the longest running
industries and they do still pretty well, so clearly they already ask a "fair"
price for their phos. The wage for a chef or other staff is not determined by
the menu price but by the market rate. If you have more people who can cook
than people who need a cook then it's a bit tough isn't it.

------
dorfsmay
Tipping is about the perception of social class and giving the buyer the
perception of having power over others, by giving them a mini power-trip.

In no other circumstances is a unilateral and after the fact negotiation
acceptable. Would YOU work for a variable salary with no clear criteria on
what affect it, no guarantee of salary regardless of your skills an effort and
for which studies have shown that the colour of your skin, your sex and the
mood and social background of the customer has more effect on your salary than
anything else?

If the service and the food is good, I tip 15% and go back for more and talk
about it to everybody I know. If the service or the food is bad, I tip 15%,
never go back, and let everybody I know, know about it.

~~~
amsilprotag
The problem is that two equilibria exist. The equilibrium of a tipping culture
is reinforced by high-performing wait staff. If one restaurant or one city
adopts a no-tipping policy, the well-tipped will move, the poorly-tipped will
stay, and quality will suffer. The other problem is that the tipping culture
has created many extrinsically motivated workers. Cultures without tipping
require people who intrinsically perform well, but years of living under the
carrot and stick of tipping has produced transactional workers.

The no-tipping equilibrium perpetuates because most customers don't like the
math and decision-making required after every meal. And most workers don't
like being put into a Skinner box. And finally, the best wait staff in no-
tipping cultures don't realize how much they're subsidizing the worst wait
staff.

We as a society simply fell into the worse equilibrium. The only solution is a
national edict, but this likely won't happen because there isn't the political
will, and the beneficiaries of the current system know who they are and what
they'd lose.

~~~
dorfsmay
To avoid the math for the customers, restaurant can simply advertise price
before service (like all restaurants), and add a compulsory service charge
(say 15%).

In terms of incentive, what about firing the low-performers, like in other
industries.

You are implying that tipping as an incentive works, I disagree, in my
experience people tip based on the overall experience and a large part of that
is taste which the wait staff has no influence over. What about a bonus for
everybody, based on the profit made that month?

------
coldtea
> _Now what if we were to magically make tipping disappear? Think about the
> diner for a second. What if, by removing tips from your restaurant, you’ll
> actually end up delighting more guests, improving your food, and retaining
> employees?_

Well, I've dined all over the world (not an American btw), and the US had the
most friendly and alert waiting stuff, which I guess it's at least party
because of the tipping.

Sure, in expensive restaurants all around the world you can get good service
and waiters that always hover nearby. But in the US that's also true for the
neighborhood diner.

~~~
gkoberger
Nah, it's more of a cultural thing. In the US, waitstaff is expected to be
attentive and stop by constantly. In other countries, they're expected to
leave you alone unless you need them, so you can enjoy your meal without being
annoyed. For example, in many countries, they'll never approach you or bring
you a check until you flag them down to ask.

I think it's less about tipping, and more about customs.

~~~
concerned_user
That actually might explain the problem. I live in EU, at my local cafe place
which is quite large ~40 tables I usually see 2 cooks, 1 barista and 3 servers
even when its 90% full in the evening (1-2 servers in the morning or during
day when its 50% full). Yes, wait times are quite long, usually takes good 20
minutes and you only interact with a server 3 times at most, when you make an
order, they bring you food and when they bring you receipt.

I can see that to provide the level of service described, frequent checking in
on tables etc you would need probably 5-6 servers so the costs would go up
significantly. Regarding customs, yes I definitely prefer servers to get me my
food and get out of the way, and it is considered normal.

I mainly go out to eat to spend time with friends/colleagues and no to eat, so
I guess in Europe cafe is mostly seen as a place to have a chat rather than
eat.

I never saw waiters actually try and turn tables even when the place is full
and there are some tables where people finished eating, paid for the food and
just sit there chatting for a good hour. Yes it is considered rude to do that
when place is full but it is more of cultural thing.

~~~
jaclaz
Italy here.

Speaking of restaurants (not "cafe's") i.e. where you actually have lunch or
dinner, (which means normally at least two courses) the number of servers is
function of the level of the place, it is more or less "coded".

The range goes from "bad" or "slow" service which is 1 server every 25 people
to "excellent" or "fast/responsive" which is 1 server every 8 people.

You won't find 1/25 if not in really cheap places, nor 1/8 if not in really
expensive ones, average is 1/12 to 1/16.

Leaving the table free after having eaten is exclusively cultural, no waiter
will ever dare to tell you to free the table or bring you the bill if not
asked for, with the rare exception of long time customers with which there is
confidence, in which case the waiter may ask this as a personal favour, on the
other hand any long time customer will notice that the place is full and leave
the table free as soon as possible.

Good restaurants (and capable waiters) can understand from a number of signals
if you are in just for a quick meal or if you are in for a meal at leisure and
serve you accordingly.

------
coreyp_1
I think that tipping as a percentage of the meal cost is absolutely idiotic.

I have _never_ gotten good service at an expensive restaurant, and yet the
receipt gives you the math for 18%, 20%, and 22% tips.

I have gotten good and bad service at cheap restaurants (something like Steak
and Shake), and tip accordingly.

The "work" is not anything different between the two jobs. Just take my order,
bring me my food, and refill my water glass (heck, leave me a pitcher of water
and I'll be much happier and do the refilling myself!). Why does the expensive
restaurant expect a $10.00 tip for this service, while the cheap place is
happy with a $2.00 tip for the same amount of work?!?

~~~
lostphilosopher
This! I have never heard a compelling explanation of this. It gets doubly
weird with alcohol in the equation. A group of 4 shares a $60 dollar bottle of
wine with dinner. The waiter/ress brings a bottle and pours 4 glasses. If that
doesn't kill the bottle they leave it and often the guests refill on their
own.

= $12 tip

A table of 4 gets 4 glasses of pop $2.50 each, each a different kind. The
waiter/ress brings 4 full glasses to the table, and then goes back and forth
filling them for each individual.

= $2.00 tip

What?!

~~~
greedo
Because tip culture helps the restaurant owner make money. If you incentivize
your wait staff to push expensive specials and high priced wine by the bottle,
then both they and the restaurant make more $$.

------
byuu
It's amusing the way everyone who lives in tipping countries swears by how
much better it is and how much they prefer it. And conversely, people who live
in no-tipping countries say the same about their system. Most people simply
like what they're used to, and don't bother considering the other side of the
argument.

In my own case, I live in a tipping country. I find that I have maybe ten
restaurants I frequent. And since I've been here for twelve years, I
constantly run into the same waitstaff. Incredulously, I once ran into the
same waiter at _three_ separate restaurants in my time here. If I were to give
one of them a bad tip for bad service, there's a good probability I'd end up
having them serve me again, and that does not sound pleasant.

So the tipping is basically mandatory for me, unless I'm willing to never eat
at a place again. And to date, I've left no tip exactly once for a waiter who
took our drink orders, came back ten minutes later to say there was a problem
with the machines so we asked for water and took our order, the backstaff
brought out the meal, and we finished the meal without ever having received
anything to drink, and had to ask the staff at the front for our check because
the waiter never came back. Another time we left a bad tip and never went back
to a restaurant that made us wait over 30 minutes in a near empty place before
anyone took our order. The staff knew we weren't served, and the longer they
waited, the more awkward it became, and we kind of both decided we weren't
going to leave until they served us.

It's also strongly worth considering some of the racial undertones of tipping.
It's pretty well regarded among waitstaff here in the US that black people
don't tip well, and as a result, they receive worse service, which in return
leads to worse tips. It's a self-fulfilling circle.

I can imagine myself as an employee. If tips are resulting in huge paydays,
I'd obviously prefer that system. But if I were constantly getting highly
variable paychecks, that would be a big problem as my landlord wouldn't take a
smaller payment because business was slow this week. A steady income provides
much-needed stability.

I can also imagine myself as a customer. A tipped waiter would try to upsell
me more and push wine on me. Yet a non-tipped waiter might not be as attentive
since there's nothing in it for them to do a better job.

Weighing all the pros and cons, I'm personally of the opinion that we should
abolish tipping, abolish the $x.99 bullshit pricing and just say $x+1, stop
charging $2-3 for a ten-cent soda to subsidize the food prices, and roll taxes
into the prices so if it says $10, you pay $10, period. Leave "how'd we do?"
cards that customers drop off into a sealed box on the way out to control for
good service.

But, I doubt I'll live to see any of that here.

------
pzh
The problem with no tipping, in my experince (especially in Europe), is that
waiters aren't incentivized to turn tables. If you go to a popular spot for
dinner that happens to be completely full and ask for a table, the waiter will
usually shrug their shoulders and say 'Sorry, try again tomorrow.' Usually,
there is no concept of a waiting list or a waiting time estimate, because
diners are conditioned that they can spend 3 or 4 hours over a bottle of wine,
and there would be no pressure to pay and leave, so waiters find it impossible
to make any promises regarding when a table would free up. Additionally, the
waitstaff won't be paid extra to make an effort and try to serve more tables
on a given night (being on a fixed salaries), so they'll be quite leisurely
about their business.

Of course, if you happen to be the one who got there early, and you like
having 3-hour meals while chatting with your friends, it's the perfect
arrangement, because nobody will pressure you to eat, pay, and leave in 30-40
mins as usually happens in the US.

~~~
wjossey
This is something I've also experienced during my travels to Europe, in
particular in Paris. I will say I've found this to be a "feature", not a
"bug". In addition, it's uncommon for the check to be presented without it
first being asked for, whereas in the US, once you "pass" on desert, you're
given a check.

I'd love to see a non-tipping culture organically rise up. I'd choose
restaurants that pay a living wage for all full time employees, sans the need
for tips. I know some restaurants have experimented with negative results, but
I'd like to (maybe wishfully) believe that this can still take hold in the US.

~~~
bradleyankrom
I would imagine that the restaurant considers it closer to a bug than a
feature because its tables are finite. Parties that come in looking for a
table aren't necessarily going to be queued up, most will just go somewhere
else.

~~~
pzh
Precisely that! But apart from the inability to predict table occupancy (for
which you could theoretically come up with some ML solution), the other issue
is that from a strict economic sense, having people occupy a table for 3 hours
vs 1 hour while paying the same amount of money is a singificant opportunity
cost to the business. In essence, from the perspective of the restaurant,
people who are having a 3-hour meal and a long conversation are using a
resource for which they're not paying, while other potentially paying
customers are being turned away.

A nice side effect of the tipping culture in the US is that this inefficiency
is eliminated. That's why I find it hard to believe that businesses will find
it in their best interest to eliminate tips.

~~~
freeflight
>A nice side effect of the tipping culture in the US is that this inefficiency
is eliminated.

What you consider an "inefficiency" is part of a lifestyle in big parts of
Europe. Going out to eat isn't just considered "calorie intake" that needs to
be "as quick and efficient as possible", it's considered leisure and social
time, especially in the southern parts of Europe like Greece, Italy or Spain.

It's also very seldom that people really manage to just drink one bottle of
wine in 3 hours, usually it's bigger groups and they tend to drink a lot once
they finished eating. Depending on how the restaurant prices their drinks the
"3 hour drinking group" can end up making way more money for the restaurant
than trying to shove 3 parties of "Just eat something with a small soda", into
the same timeframe.

~~~
Anasufovic
Precisely this, if anything, it's part of the experience you pay for. His
suggestions of using ML for occupancy and optimizing for turnover would more
likely ruin the restaurant. Luckily in business schools being aware of
cultural differences is being taught more and more.

------
MrQuincle
From personal experience (just anecdotal) I would say service in the US is
much better than for example in the Netherlands (my own country). I think
you'll have to think of other things than service to make this happen.

Other options:

\+ Start with clear signs to indicate for other businesses (cabs, hairdresser)
that tips are not expected.

\+ I will assume that you pay the 20% to your personnel anyway. So basically
you offer a guilt-free paying experience. We will genuinely be happy by
whatever you pay.

\+ The international card. Communicate that you don't want that Americans are
the only ones paying 20% more.

\+ Build up a name as employer. Advertise with that.

\+ Mix and match your service offerings with others, being a library, place to
date, etc where tipping is less obvious.

\+ Have people pay online before the meal. Subscriptions is also possible.

\+ Uber-experience. Do not pay the restaurant directly, but have intermediate
company taking care of it.

~~~
avar
Service in Spain is also much better than The Netherlands, I'd say on par with
US service.

I think Dutch service is just particularly bad, and tipping clearly doesn't
explain the difference since Spanish service is so much better without the
expectation of tipping.

------
skywhopper
A lot of the advice here is good and has nothing to do with tipping. Pay your
staff well, don't add service charges (adding "fees" for "health care" is a
counterproductive political statement), just charge a fair price that covers
your costs. I love going to places that include sales tax in the advertised
price. I would never return to a restaurant that nickel and dimed me for their
health care expenses.

But I also love tipping generously. I don't believe poor service should be
punished with a poor tip. More likely poor service means your server is also
having a really bad, overworked day and deserves the tip more. But I guarantee
if you tip well every time you go to a local restaurant regularly you will get
spectacular service after a few times.

As for non Americans who are confused by tipping, it's no more important or
intimidating than typical expected manners in other countries. In Paris
shopkeepers expect you to say bonjour and au revoir and cashiers expect you to
have exact change. There'll always be cultural gotchas when you travel. If
you're unsure whether to tip it's totally acceptable to ask.

------
ahoy
Is the restaurant industry in need of saving, from a restaurant owner's or
diner's perspective?

I'm fully on the "tipping is terrible for everyone involved" side, but I
wonder if the framing here is based on anything.

~~~
colechristensen
It certainly seems like it should be more efficient for 100 people to eat
dinner in a restaurant than for 40 people to cook 100 meals. (100 / average
household size (~2.5) = ~40)

And yet it's considerably more expensive.

Because, it seems, a considerable amount of the cost of restaurant food goes
to the overhead costs of the real-estate owners and the financial system. This
is both directly and indirectly (the cost of the rent or financing of the
restaurant space + the portion of employee wages that go to renting their
homes + the cost of everything the employees purchase going towards rent etc.)

In other words it seems a disproportional amount of our economy goes towards
people that own instead of people that do.

How do you solve that though? Increase rent-seeking taxes (interest, rentals,
etc) and lower income taxes? (basically lowering significantly the benefits
from buying things you don't use yourself)

~~~
randomdata
_> And yet it's considerably more expensive._

Even after you've included all of your costs?

It's easy to say the raw food ingredients are considerably less expensive, but
that's only a small part of the story. There is a cost of having a kitchen
(tools and space in the home), utility costs, not to mention your time.

Maybe a high end specialty restaurant that is selling an experience, but I'd
be surprised if you could actually compete with a place like McDonalds on
cost.

~~~
ktRolster
_Maybe a high end specialty restaurant that is selling an experience, but I 'd
be surprised if you could actually compete with a place like McDonalds on
cost._

Fries and a hamburger are about the easiest thing to make, requiring no
special equipment. The ingredients are a lot cheaper than buying at
McDonald's, too.

If you have more than one person eating, then the cost savings can really add
up.

~~~
randomdata
> Fries and a hamburger are about the easiest thing to make, requiring no
> special equipment.

For all practical purposes of modern urban life, you at least need some kind
of specialized heating apparatus.

More importantly, somewhere to store that apparatus. Which is quite often a
kitchen. In San Francisco, the median housing cost per square foot is almost
$1,000. A small kitchen is defined as 70 square feet, or $70,000. If we assume
a rate of 3%, the opportunity cost of that kitchen is almost $6 per day, or $2
per meal if we assume three meals per day.

That brings the cost of an $8 McDonalds meal down to about $6 right there.

Then there is your time. San Francisco has officially declared that your time
is worth at least $13/hr. At that rate you have just 28 minutes before you've
already used up that $6. That includes gathering the ingredients, prepping the
food, cooking the food, and cleaning up afterwards. That does not leave a lot
of room for error, even for something as simple as burgers and fries.

It does indeed get better with scale, but I have also left off a number of
other costs, including the cost of the food itself. For a single person (in
SF) it is no contest without even getting into other costs.

Of course, there is something to be said about the food you can create
yourself, versus eating at Mcdonalds every meal. Cost isn't everything.

~~~
ktRolster
I don't think you can get an apartment without a kitchen.

~~~
randomdata
Of course, that doesn't mean they are free. There is a very real cost to
having the means of production.

------
egocodedinsol
This essay left me confused - it starts by suggesting that tipping is bad, and
that raising prices, possibly above the cost of tipping, will bring a net win.
I was very curious to read about why.

But then the essay shifted to two seemingly unrelated reasons: (1) if you make
the food delicious and the service great you can charge more, and (2) if you
pay the kitchen staff more, you get less turnover/happier cooks. These last
two don't support the central thesis - why does ending tipping help cooks get
paid more? At the end of the day, fixing all other costs, cooks get paid more
if servers get paid less, whether that's from ending tipping or increasing
chef salary. And obviously making delicious food would be great, but what does
that have to do with tipping? If you end tipping, suddenly everyone will try
harder?

An article examining the effects of increasing chef pay at the expense of
service pay would be very interesting to me. I would gladly sacrifice some
professionalism in service for increased food quality, and I wonder if others
would, too.

------
JumpCrisscross
Maybe I'm ruining it for everyone, but when I've gone to New York's budding
"no tip" restaurants, I've thrown a cash tip on the bill.

Guess what happened next? I was asked my name, and the next times I went, I
got seated faster, comped chef's recommendations and a generally friendlier
interaction with my server. Same thing happens abroad, where the locals don't
tip well.

I don't understand how people get shocked by fundamental rules of incentives.

(Side note: this works everywhere. No, I don't put cash on my banker's or
retail clerk's counter. But I _do_ make an effort, particularly when doing
things they'll earn a commission on, to do my business with them. In exchange
for the minor hassle I have a better experience and get an enjoyable
relationship out of what would otherwise be drudgery.)

~~~
crazygringo
As a New Yorker, I honestly don't know what you're talking about. Tips are
flat-out refused at the no-tip restaurants. And the idea that your tip was
tracked in a database and that you actually got better service the next time
because of it is entirely in your mind, I'm sorry.

There's actually a tremendous amount of research on incentives, and they don't
always result in the behavior you'd think.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _Tips are flat-out refused at the no-tip restaurants_

From experience, they are not. I don't typically carry cash, and actually draw
it to test this hypothesis every time I visit no-tip restaurants. The first
time I do it, I am usually reminded I am at a no-tip restaurant. After I
insist on the excellence of the service the tip is _always_ accepted.

> _the idea that your tip was tracked in a database_

Database? It's just a server, bartender, maître d', restaurant owner, _et
cetera_ remembering your name and face.

~~~
gech
You could insist on giving extra money at any business or for any service and
most of them would take it.

------
lefstathiou
I've traveled the world and have come to the conclusion that diners are better
off in a tipping environment. Realize this is purely anecdotal but time and
time again we have come to the realization that incentives matter and
incentivizing good service makes sense to me (and I shouldn't have to order a
bottle of wine at lunch to get it). If all someone is going to do is play
telephone from one side of the room to the other, no thanks, I'd rather save
the 20% and order off an iPad.

~~~
aninhumer
Based on what I've seen in the US, tipping doesn't encourage _good_ service,
it encourages _noticeable_ service.

I'd rather be served by a slightly inattentive sullen teenager in the UK, than
a perky waitress with a fake smile pestering me all the time in the US.

~~~
eeZah7Ux
How about a third option: a professional that knows how to give food and wine
recommendations when asked with no fake smiles and pestering. In some european
countries this would be normal even for small moms-and-pops restaurants.

~~~
geodel
3rd option seems fine dining place with wine experts and all. I think those
sullen teenager or perky waitress would be working at a diner or something.

------
rdl
I used to hate tipping but now I love it. I spend >100 nights/yr in hotels,
and tipping the bellman/doorman well on the way in is one of the best
investments in a good stay (calibrating tips for the point where he gives you
his name, and ideally phone number, for "if you need anything else"; $10 in
most third tier US cities; $20 in a place like New York). Las Vegas basically
runs on $5s and $20s -- everything from "valet lot is full but we can keep
your car right here for you" to moving carts full of pelican cases to getting
vehicle maintenance done to whatever.

In the Middle East/Central Asia I am very happy to be "the American who tips
and is polite" vs "the American who is worth $5k if we call that guy...".

In China I had hotel staff literally spend the afternoon with me navigating
Beijing police to recover a $5k loss (successfully; btw Beijing tourist police
are awesome too.)

Tipping reasonably well at restaurants/cafes you frequent (I try to pick a
couple per city) makes getting tables, impromptu meetings, etc much easier to
set up.

If you view tipping as an obligation it sucks, but once you view it as a
chance to get what you want it is great.

~~~
manicdee
But when you realise that tipping is bribing public officials to get service
that regular taxpayers do not get, doesn't that take the shine off?

~~~
psyc
Have you ever actually bribed someone? It's fun. Makes you feel like you're in
the movies.

~~~
snovv_crash
It's great until you start getting threats of arrest for stuff you didn't do
as bribe solicitation.

~~~
rdl
Also bad: running afoul of Foreign Corrupt Practices Act (if you're an
American or in a business which has any connection to the US).

~~~
isostatic
Certainly bribes (or "tips" as many Americans call them) are illegal for U.K.
Citizens.

------
emeerson
No-tipping trends are starting to reverse now, however:
[http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/05/why-
rest...](http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/05/why-restaurants-
walk-back-no-tipping-policies/482151/)

Upscale and some midscale restaurants in NYC have seen a drop in demand since
no-tipping policies have been applied. Its not clear if this is purely a
product of pricing psychology, or if service quality at the upscale end starts
to suffer with service staff having less incentive to provide top-notch
service.

------
nayuki
A fast and entertaining take on this topic: "Why Tipping Should Be Banned -
Adam Ruins Everything" \-
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_vivC7c_1k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_vivC7c_1k)

------
bradleyankrom
Anecdotal, but there's a supermarket chain in the Southeastern U.S. (Publix)
that pays their employees a living wage, provides health coverage, and makes a
point of letting the customer know that staff (even the folks that load your
groceries into your car) doesn't accept tips. The food costs are a little bit
higher than, say, Walmart, but closer to that end of the spectrum if Whole
Foods is the opposite end. I don't know how well that model would translate to
the restaurant industry but, personally, I would give preference to
establishments that opted for that model than the current $2something/hour
minimum wage + tips.

~~~
misja111
I'm from Europe so I'm not very familiar with the tipping etiquette in the
USA, but if I understand you properly, you're saying that in supermarkets like
Walmart, people give tips to the personell? Like to the cashier?

That's quite a culture difference with Europe, here they would think that you
were crazy if you would do such a thing ...

~~~
zimzam
In many grocery stores the checkout lane have two people: the cashier and a
'bagger' who will bag the groceries for you and, if requested, will bring them
out and load them into your car.

The bagger sometimes gets a tip, especially if they are handling heavy items
like cat litter.

(Baggers are common in grocery stores with large parking lots: so they were
common growing up in a mid-sized city in the Midwest but I've never seen one
in NYC)

------
kasey_junk
The last issue "Chef's will love you" has a lot less to do with tipping or not
(personally I'm against tipping and wish it would go away, but its not why
back of house staff get stiffed).

Back of house staff, in the US, cannot tip share. Its against the law.
Assumedly this was originally meant as a worker protection, but in recent
years, especially at higher end establishments, it acts as a wage limit for
the people making the food.

We should change the labor laws for restaurants to allow for both worker
protections (restaurants are notorious labor law violators) _and_ to allow
back of house staff to get some of the tip income.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _Back of house staff, in the US, cannot tip share. Its against the law._

Do you have a reference for this? I know of a few restaurants, in New York and
Arizona, where the kitchen shares in the pool.

~~~
zacherates
The Fair Labor Standards Act requires tip pools to only include "employees who
customarily and regularly receive tips"
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Labor_Standards_Act#Tippi...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Labor_Standards_Act#Tipping)).

... my understanding is that provision generally excludes back of house staff
(except busboys), but as usual the details of any particular situation require
an actual legal opinion.

------
untangle
Federal law and that of some states allows a lower minimum wage for tipped
employees. [1] So the financial delta for the restaurant may be bigger than
that described.

Blame the powerful restaurateur lobby. [2]

[1]
[https://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm](https://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm)

[2]
[http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/02/02/464852535/for...](http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/02/02/464852535/forked-
rates-restaurants-on-how-they-treat-their-workers)

------
cylinder
Tipping is truly one of the stupidest aspects of American society. It's unfair
to both the worker and the customer.

------
mibollma
He takes China as an example but from my experience service often sucks in
average restaurants in China. I would have often preferred to show my
satisfaction with the service through my tip or lack thereof as I'm used to
from my native country.

------
joshu
editorialized title. Tsk.

the tipping situation sucks, but the larger economic problem is effectively
due to rent extraction by the landlord. when a restaurant can't afford the
rent that, say, a bank can, they are effectively priced out of the market. All
excess returns and up going to the land owner. This effectively becomes a
variant of baumol's cost disease. Once again, return on capital trumps return
on labor.

I remember, many years ago, living in Manhattan: in a short period of time,
for restaurants on each corner of an intersection were replaced with four
banks. A vibrant spot died.

~~~
kiba
This is why I support the land-value tax.

Landlords would only be taxed on the value of their land and not the property
they're building.

They're heavily incentivized to develop as much as possible to pay tax, since
land-value tax doesn't care about the cost of any improvement you make.

~~~
samastur
This wouldn't change landlord's incentives and therefore unlikely to change
the outcome.

~~~
kiba
You would need to explain that to me.

~~~
smallnamespace
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax#Efficiency](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax#Efficiency)

A landlord's decision to improve or not improve the property only depends on
1) the cost of the improvements and 2) the expected revenue stream from that
improvement, neither of which are affected by an LVT, since the LVT only cares
about the unimproved value of the lot.

~~~
kiba
I can't follow the technical arguments you're making.

~~~
smallnamespace
You are a landlord. You need to decide whether to make an improvement to your
property.

There are only two things you care about:

1\. How much money does that improvement bring in?

2\. How much does that improvement cost?

 _Neither of those two inputs_ are affected by a land value tax. Therefore the
landlord must reach the same decision, regardless of whether there is an LVT
or not, and so LVTs have no effect on whether landlords improve their
property.

You might think that they'll be motivated to improve the lot in order to be
able to pay the LVT, but that rationally doesn't factor in to the decision to
improve the land or not. It only affects the price of the land (Imposing an
LVT makes land prices fall by the discounted future cost of the tax).

And not to be rude, but it seems strange to jump into discussions recommending
LVTs as a solution to an economic problem without first understanding basic
economic theory.

~~~
kiba
_You might think that they 'll be motivated to improve the lot in order to be
able to pay the LVT, but that rationally doesn't factor in to the decision to
improve the land or not. It only affects the price at which the land is bought
or sold._

I misunderstood the LVT as something that is levied against the landowner
every year?

 _And not to be rude, but it seems strange to jump into discussions
recommending LVTs as a solution to an economic problem without understanding
basic economic theory._

I read an economist article on it, and I thought that I understood it.
Apparently I don't.

I won't be recommending it in the future until I fully understand the
consequences.

~~~
smallnamespace
> I misunderstood the LVT as something that is levied against the landowner
> every year?

Yes, but it still doesn't affect the (rational) landowner's decision. Imagine
an improvement that can net the owner $Y a year in profit. A rational owner
should always make that improvement, regardless of whether the government is
also taxing them $X a year on the land.

If they doesn't have the money/capital to do so, they should sell the land to
someone else. Obviously not every landowner acts fully rationally, but in the
aggregate, landowners should act pretty closely to that model.

~~~
ohwello
>Yes, but it still doesn't affect the (rational) landowner's decision. Imagine
an improvement that can net the owner $Y a year in profit. A rational owner
should always make that improvement, regardless of whether the government is
also taxing them $X a year on the land.

It's not just about whether return is positive, it's about the highest ROI
considering opportunity cost.

Consider a simple case where two lots with one story of development each can
produce as much as a single lot with two stories of development. With a tax on
land+improvements, a landlord does not prefer one over the other. With a tax
on land value only, the single lot with two stories is preferred.

>If they doesn't have the money/capital to do so, they should sell the land to
someone else.

Indeed. If the neighbors have ten stories of development, a landlord with a
one-story building will not be able to afford the LVT and will sell to someone
who can afford to build ten stories.

~~~
smallnamespace
> With a tax on land value only, the single lot with two stories is preferred.

Yes, but that's because tax on land + improved value distorts incentives (by
discouraging improvements).

Usually when we say the LVT doesn't affect incentives, the baseline of
comparison is against no land taxes of any form. In that world, you would
prefer to develop the single lot because you need to buy less land, so the
result is the same as with LVT.

~~~
Zalastax
> Usually when we say the LVT doesn't affect incentives, the baseline of
> comparison is against no land taxes of any form.

That really confused the whole discussion as the current situation is tax on
land + improved value, making it look like you were arguing from the other
side. No tax at all is anyway taking it to the extreme as the government need
money, so it becomes merely an academic exercise.

------
innocentoldguy
I agree with the author. Having lived in Japan for a number of years, where
tipping isn't done, I can say that the dining experience is far superior.
Servers don't have to feel like beggars and patrons don't have to feel like
their being panhandled.

I also agree that nothing screams "I'm a sphincter!" quite like asking for a
20% tip on a muffin, or a cup of coffee. Unless you physically came to me, got
my order, and brought my food to me, you don't deserve a damn tip.

Another thing that restaurant owners do that is deserving of a throat-punch is
to confiscate tips and dole them out to other workers, or divvy them up evenly
amongst the servers. When I give someone a tip, it is because they've done a
good job, and I want to show THAT PERSON my gratitude. I'm not remotely
interested in helping the restaurant owner make payroll. That's not what my
tip is for.

Tipping sucks and it is grossly abused throughout the restaurant industry. I'd
be happy to see it die a deserved death.

~~~
snicky
No offence, but how does physically coming to you and bringing your food
justifies paying additional 10-20%? As mentioned above, I live in EU and
almost never tip, because I cannot really understand this cultural thing. Why
should I pay a special tip to sbd who brings my food and not clerks in a
bakery or a garbage track drivers? I'm being serious here, I'm trying to
understand why people do this. Is there any other reason than "the custom"?

------
return0
Tip to americans: tipping is ultra-confusing to foreign visitors. But you dont
depend on tourism so you dont see it. Its an arduous procedure and the amount
changes from state to state. It leads to a lot of misunderstanding. The
service is good , leaning on overbearing sometimes, but overall i think its
more hassle than benefit.

~~~
illumin8
It's not that hard, and doesn't vary from state to state. I agree, we would be
better off if we did away with it, but it's very easy to understand.

Whenever you eat in a sit-down, full service restaurant, you typically want to
leave 15-20% of the full purchase price of the food as a tip. Don't feel
obligated to do this at fast food restaurants or anywhere where you get the
food at the counter. It's not that hard to remember this, but I agree, it can
create some socially awkward circumstances, especially for tourists who
"forget" about the custom.

~~~
return0
It varies, 15% in california would be considered low, and you would never know
why the waiter made that weird face. It is weird in taxis. And what is the
proper etiquette in a bar? And what kind of bar? A bellboy?

More generally, however, a 'tip' is supposed to be an arbitrary amount out of
someone's good heart. The fact that it is a preset amount, and you need a
calculator, is weird and time-consuming. Again, it may not look so from the
inside. My assumption is that it's a relic from a time when workers were
uneducated and by default rude. It really seems like an ancient thing
nowadays.

------
justosophy
Tipping isn't a thing in Australia. I'm not sure I'd know the first thing for
the right way to tip if I visited the US. And yet we seem to enjoy high
quality food, and I believe our hospitality wages are higher in general.

( perhaps this is all anecdotal, but tipping has never seemed to make sense to
someone not in the mix of it )

~~~
simonrobb
Tipping _is_ a thing in Australia, but it's not the pseudo-compulsary thing it
is in the US. We do pay significantly higher hospitality wages here; nobody is
going to starve if you don't tip, and nobody is going to hold it against you.
However if you receive excellent service, it's customary to demonstrate your
thanks with a bit extra on the bill, and it will be appreciated.

------
downandout
I lean toward agreeing with this article, however laws would probably have to
change in order for it to work. Raising prices, say by 20%, and passing that
money directly to servers is fine IMO. That would not only eliminate tipping,
but really invest employees in the success of the restaurant. Further, the
restaurant could decide the "tip" portion of the price on expensive alcohol as
well, eliminating the ridiculousness of calculating the tip for the food and
alcohol separately (many people don't tip the full 15-20% on very expensive
bottles of wine, for example).

Where this falls down is that tax would then be charged on the raised prices,
meaning we're now paying a tax on the "tip". I think many people would find
that hard to swallow. So it's a good idea, but local and state tax laws would
have to change.

------
dclowd9901
It doesn't matter. People will _still_ tip. While the vast majority of us
_hate_ tipping, there are some out there who absolutely live by it emotionally
(I'm talking about the tippers here), and maintain a healthy amount of guilt
if they don't tip.

Case in point: One of the biggest wins of Uber was to remove the tip concept
from getting a ride. It made the whole experience effortless and seamless.
Portland being Portland, however, has drivers who post placards in their cars
suggesting tipping (against what I thought was company policy), and riders buy
into it, as you can't possibly exist in Portland without constantly trying to
be the nicest person on the planet.

Mark my words: if this happens, restaurants will charge 15-30% more and we
will simply start tipping on _top_ of that.

Hell, even during my last trip to Germany, I noticed an expectation for tips.

~~~
jghn
I've never tipped an uber driver however one only needs to spend some time in
/r/uberdrivers to learn that many drivers around the country actually do
expect tips. It has nothing with Portland being Portland. They'll also point
out that Uber hasn't said "no tipping" for a long time, although IIRC the
drivers aren't allowed to ask for one.

I completely agree with your last two statements though.

------
shadowmint
You might argue that this is stupid, because it's a catch 22; unless everyone
does it, you lose as a business if you do it; nothing motivates people more
than raw dollar value and you'll either lose your staff or have to put prices
up to pay them more.

...but, you look at Uber, and there's no tipping there; and it's great for the
consumer, and (astonishingly) drivers seem fine with it, despite objectively
being exploited blatantly and paid less than taxi drivers.

So, maybe there is something to be said for an all digital disruption to the
food scene, somehow...

Honestly, I can't see how it would work though; you have to actually
demonstrate that your new 'no tip' solution works somehow, not just armchair
philosophize about some way to 'magically make tipping disappear?'

~~~
chipperyman573
Uber also pays drivers more than they charge users to begin with.

~~~
shadowmint
Sure, I'm just saying, it's clear you _can_ make a business out of this sort
of thing.

Whether it's profitable, that's another question, clearly.

Like I said, I can't imagine how it would work; but maybe there is some kind
of like, 'you subscribe to a service, the service pays out 'tip equivalents',
you don't have to tip' scheme that might make sense there somewhere.

Basically, it's not _totally implausible_ there might actually be a business
that solves the whole tipping thing somehow.

~~~
oddlyaromatic
I think you were right about the catch 22 thing, which is the core problem
that this article misses. Uber doesn't have tipping but don't you rate your
rides in a way that can ultimately reduce the amount of work that driver gets?
It has the punishment inverse of tipping.

------
george_ciobanu
Tipping is asking the consumer to do the work of management - _you_ decide if
our employee did a good job and how much they deserve. I'm here to have
dinner, thank you, not to assess how your employees behave and decide how much
they should be paid.

------
musha68k
Wage slavery is especially rampant in the food and beverage industry where low
margins and high competition are the norm.

Including "tips" (you could still _tip_ for extraordinary service) as well as
sales tax in the price might be the first step towards more transparency and
_fair pay_ for everyone involved (owners to waiters) in what essentially
amounts to a luxury service anyway.

------
danielhooper
Tipping is great because it provides the customer with some leverage to pay a
price they feel is fair. Not to mention it allows many many many many people
to live somewhat comfortably despite working in what would be considered a
lowly occupation. We haven't even talked about how service workers are
salesman and saleswomen who are provided the opportunity to be compensated
more for greater achievement, and the business in turn as well.

It sounds like the people who dislike tipping are the same people who struggle
to stand up for themselves to salespeople, and feel pressured to pay extra
just to remove themselves from the social setting. I don't mean to be
accusatory, but I believe it's likely this is a major motivating factor to
dislike tipping despite the complete advantage it gives to you as a consumer.

~~~
srinathrajaram
I can and have walked out without tipping when the service was bad.

When I go out to eat, I do so to unwind. The implicit pressure to tip detracts
from that experience and I dislike it. It is not a question of what I am
capable of doing. It is about not having to deal with the unfairness of an
average or a poor waiter demanding to be compensated.

------
nommm-nommm
If I go to a brewery for a pint (brewery, not brewpub) there's a tip line on
the credit card receipt. I've been to a couple wineries for a glass of
wine...And never seen a tip line on the winery recept. Can anyone explain this
one to me?

------
petre
I'd rather tip than get a bill with _service tax_ included, which is itself
taxed by the state authorities. If the service is crap, my tip is going to be
zero. What sucks is restaurants that share the tip between employees, which
means unmotivated employees get the same amount as the motivated ones. It's
also a cultural thing - in Southern Europe there's a strong tipping culture.
In Hungary you get a service tax on the bill instead. In Austria they will
thank you and look extremely grateful for a tip of even one cent. Optional is
good. No tip is fine as well. But don't tell me what to do and especially do
not regulate tipping.

------
mrits
Mexico all inclusive vs Thailand. Anyone that has been to these two places
would have to agree that tipping directly correlates to the quality of
service. This is why I'm going back to Mexico for the 9th time in 4 years.

~~~
xxbondsxx
Can you elaborate on this? What is the tipping culture like in Thailand?

I presume you mean in Mexico that since everything is all-inclusive, the only
real payment is tips so it strongly affects service quality.

~~~
mrits
Tipping in Thailand is not much of a thing. The service greatly suffers from
this. If you do go into a 5-star hotel in the city they tend to attract a
crowd that expects tips. This is where you can find really good service. The
people were always pleasant, just not very motivated to serve you.

Everywhere I've been in Mexico the service has been top notch. In all
inclusives you are still expected to tip the people.

------
alkonaut
I think the title should say "Having an expected floor for tipping of 20% and
tips of 30% for excellent service, is not a better incentive for good service
than a floor of 0% and 10% for good service".

Removing (banning) tipping all together in a restaurant is doable, but as an
owner you may want to ensure you have incentives left for employers (e.g. let
customers anonymously rate the service after online bookings and hand out
bonuses etc).

I prefer the normal system where staff is paid in full (so no part of their
expected income is tips) and customers tip for good service. This is how it
works in most of the world.

------
cfv
Where I live tipping is a matter of gratitude; you tip if you were treated
well, and you don't if you weren't. I think it's easier to reason about, and
is almost never problematic for anyone involved

------
rbcgerard
Jobs that have a high component of tip income, generally tend to be low wage
(total comp), seasonal, have high turnover, employ younger workers (again,
generally), and are transaction oriented.

With the above in mind it makes sense to use tipping to align enployees and
management in a situation where management can't spend the time
developing/micro managing its employees

You think the average teenage valet is going to run for your car on a hot day
if there is no tip?

~~~
zip1234
I would agree except for the fact that tips have been found to largely not
correlate with performance. [http://freakonomics.com/2012/12/28/do-we-really-
tip-based-on...](http://freakonomics.com/2012/12/28/do-we-really-tip-based-on-
the-waiters-service-2/)

~~~
rubidium
That link doesn't provide any facts to back up your claim.

As someone who has worked in the food industry, tipping is definitely
correlated with performance (among a couple other obvious factors).

~~~
zip1234
Yep, sorry about not good link. Here is better one:
[http://www.tippingresearch.com/uploads/managing_tips.pdf](http://www.tippingresearch.com/uploads/managing_tips.pdf)

Yes, there is a correlation, but it is extremely weak.

------
emodendroket
Any consideration of tipping has to take into account the fact that it lets
owners shift risk to their employees (since more of a slow night will come out
of their pockets instead of the owner's) -- especially when laws specifying
that employers have to make up the difference if a wage with tips is less than
minimum wage are poorly enforced.

~~~
greedo
Also, tipping culture is almost like sales commissions. When I waited tables,
if I sold a bottle of wine, that could add $50-100 to the bill; I would pocket
$10-$20 more per table. That's a helluva incentive.

------
kylehotchkiss
I wish more american restaurants would embrace the iPad ordering tools I've
seen crop up. Then the waiter just brings out what you ordered. I like the
food at waitstaff-based restaurants but as I often eat by myself (and work or
sit around on HN during that time), I think the idea of being waited on is
silly.

Also: tips on carry out? Why is that an option.

------
gohwell
Along the same lines, on a visit to San Fran I was surprised to see a 3-4%
healthcare surcharge at restaurants. You sit for a nice meal only to get a
sticker shock when the bill comes. smh

------
rudyrigot
On the other hand, living 6 years in Paris where there's no tipping but also
has ridiculously poor service culture gets one to build some positive opinions
about tipping too...

------
fowlerpower
Having worked in the restaurant industry for over 12 years, started as a bus
boy at 15 years old, then waiter, then bartender and finally moved to General
Manager of the whole place. I can tell you that tipping is absolutely
necessary.

I can say that the article is dead wrong about this. Tipping is the best thing
that's ever happened to the US Restourant business. Especially at great
establishments with repeat customers.

Here are a few reasons:

1) As an owner of a place there is only one of you, impossible for you to cook
and go greet the guests and do everything to make them feel special. Your
staff, the waiters the bus boys will feel like owners through tipping. If they
do a shitty job they don't get paid, it doesn't get more capitalistic than
that. It's the the same thing that motivates employees of startups that have
equity.

2) For customers Tipping is not required if they do a shit job you don't have
to tip 20%. Leave 10% or less, that's the whole point. You as a consumer have
the power. Not the owner or the staff.

3) The math is a bit annoying but most places will put the math in your
receipt.

4) The best establishments with repeat customers benefit from tipping the
most. The waiters and staff have to treat your guests very well and it is in
their best interest to keep high paying, high tipping customers happy and
coming back. The waiters will complain and fight with the chef when they do a
bad job that's how much they care about things going well. Their livelihood is
at steak.

5) Now compare waiters in good establishments that get good tips to folks
working at McDonalds. There is no comparison, the waiters are motivated the
McDonalds worker gets paid no matter what and makes no tip. No extra effort
necessary. For that matter compare them to any worker hat dosent make a tip
and doesn't have to hustle.

Anyway, I am a bit too passionate about this but the author is very wrong on
this one.

Tipping creates a common goal among the owner and all the staff it is crazy to
ever think of getting rid of something that makes your employees work harder
and better and is a carrot and a stick that gives the consumer all the power.

~~~
piva00
I seriously got very annoyed at most places I went to eat during my trip to
the US last year.

Having good service is not coming every 5 minutes ask if I'm all right, if I
need something, if this or that. Leave me alone, I want to eat and enjoy, not
have to reply a waiter eager for a tip.

Also the whole vibe is very "fake", I never felt really "welcomed" in any of
the places I went to, the greetings, the whole attitude looked like a sham, I
went to upscale places and just normal diners and it was all the same.

I'm sorry but I don't think this is healthy as a society, I prefer the level
of service I had in São Paulo or here in Stockholm, waiters are genuinely nice
or just get out of your way and let you enjoy the experience or just your
food.

Tipping culture looks like whoring: if you pay enough anyone can be nice to
you, I'm sorry but I don't like to know that the niceness is artificial and
that I'm paying for it.

~~~
ohstopitu
I agree with you - there's a fine line between being genuinely helpful and
nice to doing it just because they want tips and most places cross it.

------
Spooky23
Let's be real here. The reason these stories are popping up is that the
restaurant industry is getting squeezed, hard, by supermarkets that are moving
towards prepared foods as online delivery starts to nip at their business.

Restauranteurs at mid priced places want to capture more value. No tipping
means that the waitress currently pulling in $20-30/hr makes $15, and they
pocket the difference through higher prices and shrink-ray.

All of these ethical arguments, armchair economic dissertations and tales of
tipping PTSD woe are nonsense. It's all about dollars and cents for yet
another dying industry.

------
hota_mazi
The author of this article needs to travel a bit.

> what if we were to magically make tipping disappear?

Tipping is nonexistent in most of Europe, and guess what: the service
absolutely sucks as a consequence.

Why would waiters go out of their way to please you? They don't make more
money doing so. So your orders take forever, waiters never smile or even show
any kind of a pleasant attitude. It's a terrible experience all around.

Tipping is awkward and the fact that the prices you see are never the prices
you pay is annoying, but it has upsides.

------
j2bax
There are far cheaper ways to eat than going out and being waited on hand and
foot. If you don't like that kind of service and the premium price that comes
with it, go to the grocery store and cook your own meal!

~~~
golergka
It's not always cheaper, especially when you account for time and effort lost.

Eating out isn't only about fine dining; there are plenty of cheap and healthy
places quite suited for everyday meals.

~~~
j2bax
Are these places you refer to self service? If so tipping isn't really in play
in most cases.

~~~
golergka
It varies. Sometimes there is service; sometimes you order at the counter and
they bring your food over. Anyway, I always tip, because I want them to
remember me in a good way - which works perfectly.

BTW, one full meal in such places around me usually costs around $5-10. With a
typical salary of a senior engineer outside of SF, it's still quite an
affordable option.

------
CodeWriter23
And here's why this guy is wrong. Next time you're in a restaurant getting
mediocre service, ask if the tips are pooled and divided equally.

------
losteverything
Always overtip breakfast waitresses.

------
intrasight
I prefer the American system, where the tip is optional, to the European
system, where they just add it to your bill.

------
vegabook
The idea of separate charging for food and service acknowledges a certain
orthogonality in the two activities, and also offers the service staff a
measure of unbundled independence, in the diner's perception. It reflects the
tradition that serving food professionally is a real skill and is partially
unrelated to the food itself.

in France 15% service charge ivs built in, it means service staff are
professionals as they get paid properly, and I never experienced diners
convincing themselves that the meal was bad as a result.

Personally always find this moaning about tipping, which seems to afflict a
large though thankfully not majority proprtion of the population, selfish and
small minded.

If you don't like paying for a genuine service, ie. someone at your beck and
call, stay at home.

------
ip_bans_fix_you
I have to laugh at people who wring their hands over tipping at restaurants.
The guilt and anxiety that the custom of tipping induces is kind of silly.

There's a simple calculus to tipping that some people just can't seem to
stomach:

    
    
      Tip based on the amount 
      they'll spit in your food.
    

That's what you're paying for. Clean food.

In general, the reality is that tips only improve service after a customer or
group has been recognized as a good source of tips.

Tips are bribery, not commission. Once tips are recognized for what they are,
the motives for all participants becomes clearer. If they're never going to
see you again, a good tip is rendered meaningless.

~~~
j2bax
Sorry but this is utterly cynical hogwash. I've tipped very well at places
I've gone because a waiter was extremely enthusiastic, helpful and passionate
about their service. They mastered the menu offering and offered helpful
information as I was making my meal choices. They treated me like a guest in
their home. Their attitude toward their work had nothing to do with me as a
first time visitor in most circumstances.

------
emp_zealoth
Or, you know, finally unfuck your riddiculous system where paid vacations is a
luxury, minimum wage is pathetic and health insurance is not the standard...

~~~
dang
> _finally unfuck your riddiculous system_

Would you please stop posting rage rhetoric to HN? We've asked you this
before, but you're still doing it a lot. Fulmination lowers the quality of
discussion, even when you're not attacking anyone personally.

We detached this subthread from
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13263073](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13263073)
and marked it off-topic.

------
throwaway30102
I'm astonished by the number of people here who feel some sort of
psychological pressure or discomfort from tipping. Just relax, smile and give
(or don't) something like 10%.

It isn't that big of a deal.

EDIT: Apparently I offended someone who is unable to function in the real
world.

~~~
hayd
In the UK or rest of Europe that's fine, in the US 10% is grossly offensive.
(Which IMO is insane but it is what it is.)

------
JackPoach
This idea was suggested long time ago - it doesn't work.

~~~
cmurf
What do you mean by "it doesn't work" exactly? No tipping in restaurants does
work in many countries where people are paid a living wage from the outset,
from Norway to Czech Republic.

And it works fine in many other industries in the U.S. where there's no
tipping.

------
ecopoesis
I'd love for the US to move away from our bizarre tipping culture. However, if
we do it'll remove one of the simpler douchebag cues we have.

Person who leaves exactly 15%: douchebag.

Person with leaves no tip: douchecanoe.

Person who leaves a penny: doucecraft-carrier USS Doucheprise.

Tipping is such an easy filter for the people you want to spend time with.

------
padobson
Tipping is essential. It's the most common generosity exercise in everyday
life. It gives us a chance to flex a muscle we don't flex often enough.

We should be doing it more, not less. We should tip the cashier at the grocery
store and our mechanics and our mail carriers and the referees at high school
sporting events.

Paypal tip jars and Humble Bundle's Pay What You Want model are two examples
of tipping on the web that I'd like to see more often. The more nudges toward
generosity, the better.

~~~
peterkelly
> _Tipping is essential. It 's the most common generosity exercise in everyday
> life_

As someone who comes from a country where tipping is not part of the culture
(Australia), I'm struggling to understand this. What are we missing out on by
not having it?

~~~
lupin_sansei
Notice in Australia only higher end places have table service and not that
great service either. That's what we miss out on in Australia. We have much
more self service cafes and much less attentive service when we do get it.

~~~
lupin_sansei
...Australian places work around the higher minimum wages through self service
and I've been to a few places now that have touchscreen ordering (McDonalds,
some yum cha places). Expect to see more of that to reduce labor costs.

------
magaman69
restaurants will be gone when we all start popping meal pills. The tech is
probably 3-4 years out by conservative estimates.

~~~
tomhoward
No way.

We've already had a huge preview into how well artificial food replacement
products are received by the general public, in the form of Soylent and
similar meal replacement drinks and powders.

The answer is that these products have niche demand at best, even before
considering the problems they've had with quality control, negative health
reactions, etc.

My own experience is that a few years ago I spent a few months living on a
Soylent-like concoction of nutritional supplements . It covered all my
nutritional needs and had me feeling great in some ways (just like Soylent
users report), but after a while led to dreadful problems with my digestive
system and mental wellbeing.

After everything I've seen and experienced, I'm very long on conventional
food.

~~~
concerned_user
They seem to be having some issues recently.

On October 12, 2016, the company announced it would halt sales of the "Soylent
Bar" due to reports of gastrointestinal illness.

On October 27, 2016, the company halted sales of Soylent Powder 1.6 as a
cautionary measure.

------
aethant
I'm assuming you've never been to a country that doesn't have tipping, or were
shielded from service in such a country, if you were. Customer service in
these places is horrible. Why? Because it makes no difference to them if you
are pleased or not. They could care less.

If doing some simple math is so difficult, your phone has a calculator, or ask
for a pen and paper.

~~~
Munksgaard
I don't know where you've been, or how you've been treated, but I've had many
great dining experiences outside of the US, as well as many terrible ones
inside the US.

~~~
dexterdog
But you have a better feedback loop where there is tipping involved.

