
New Etsy.com CEO breaks CAN-SPAM law on first email. Great - somid3
http://imgur.com/rolrOXg
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somid3
It breaks CAN-SPAM because there is no unsubscribe link, on reply
"unsubscribe" the system does not remove the user. Email is not transactional,
last time I logged into Etsy was years ago.

This is just a terrible way to introduce yourself. They clearly were aware of
the law because they include their address(es) in the footer. An honest
mistake would have been if the footer was missing. But the footer is clearly
there.

~~~
eli
I'm sure it was an accident. But if you have an active account on the site, I
think it's reasonable to assume you have some level of relationship with the
site.

~~~
somid3
I don't have an active account. I've never bought anything on Etsy, and last
time I ever used them was years ago.

~~~
basch
you signed up for an etsy account?

~~~
somid3
Years ago, and never ordered anything. Last time I logged in was yeeears ago.

~~~
basch
you signed up for an account

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mkmk
Yes, a bit annoying. But sometimes you can give people a little break, delete
the email, and move on. Unfortunately, expecting one's inbox to be as pristine
as a sacred temple is no longer realistic.

~~~
Veratyr
You may not believe it to be realistic but it is by law protected.

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dqv
I think it's considered transactional/relationship, so exempt from CAN-SPAM

~~~
fhood
"Transactional or relationship content – which facilitates an already agreed-
upon transaction or updates a customer about an ongoing transaction;"

From ftc website. This doesn't seem to fall under that category.

Edit: More from site. A. The primary purpose of an email is transactional or
relationship if it consists only of content that:

facilitates or confirms a commercial transaction that the recipient already
has agreed to;

gives warranty, recall, safety, or security information about a product or
service;

gives information about a change in terms or features or account balance
information regarding a membership, subscription, account, loan or other
ongoing commercial relationship;

provides information about an employment relationship or employee benefits; or

delivers goods or services as part of a transaction that the recipient already
has agreed to.

~~~
eli
If you're a member of Etsy, then you have an ongoing commercial relationship
with the site and this is an update on that relationship.

People also generally interpret "deliver goods or services as part of a
transaction" pretty broadly especially if the user agreed to receive emails
from you when they signed up.

~~~
justinclift
Because they had a change of staff member? Really... who cares, that doesn't
give them an excuse to spam people about it.

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diiaann
Though a stretch...announcing the leadership change could fall under:

"gives information about a change in terms or features or account balance
information regarding a membership, subscription, account, loan or other
ongoing commercial relationship" from [https://www.ftc.gov/tips-
advice/business-center/guidance/can...](https://www.ftc.gov/tips-
advice/business-center/guidance/can-spam-act-compliance-guide-business)

But it also mixes in commercial bits, which makes it less acceptable...

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lucasmullens
Seems like an honest mistake, but I am a bit surprised whatever system they
have in place for email doesn't do this automatically.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
It speaks of a dysfunctional organisation IMO. Surely the CEO didn't send this
out without it passing through an editing process and through some IT people
(if they did then that may be worse). Why didn't they flag the issue? Are they
incompetent; too afraid??

Regardless of whether there's a strict requirement to meet CAN-SPAM _all_
company emails should be following the spirit of that regulation, even those
sent out in less regulated jurisdictions.

~~~
bentruyman
I hate reactions like this. You've deduced that Etsy.com is likely a
"dysfunctional organisation" for the mistake of missing an "Unsubscribe" link
in a single email. If that's all it takes, we certainly live in an incredibly
dysfunctional world (which is sort of true, I guess).

Way too often I see people in this industry pretend as though everyone else is
expected to conform to the strictest of standards yet the same rules never
seem to apply to our own self-created fires. "Google Apps is down! Clearly
Google has some quality control issues!" Or maybe a well-intentioned human
made a small unhandled error.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
The are a few possible scenarios but none of them look good to me: how do you
think it's possible for a CEO to send out emails without, presumably, them
being checked for legislative compliance.

Like Etsy don't have an email template? Or don't have anyone in ITS who knows
about CAN-SPAM? Or the boss over-ruled them? Or the org didn't care about
spam? Or everyone was too​ afraid to mention it? Or ...

You can say "they just left it out", but how? If Etsy was a startup or 3
person business then, OK, it's a reasonable excuse. (Etsy have more than 600
employees according to Google search.)

Yes errors happen, this one looks bad for the _organisation_ to me.

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openmosix
You hate spam and you publish your email address in a post that you submit to
a high-traffic website?

~~~
jecjec
HAHA! Response, OP?

~~~
somid3
Im more interested in whether or not this breaks the law of things rather than
who has access to my personal email. It baffles me that they have a footer
with addresses but no unsubscribe.

This is a slippery slope, what if every company starts doing this.

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khazhou
To me this ranks pretty damn low on the list of email offenders.

It's Cinco de Mayo, someid3... Have a margarita and relax!

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mitchellshow
IANAL but fairly certain that's transactional, not a commercial message

~~~
xxr
NAL either, but is it truly transactional if the apparent sender is a
donotreply?

~~~
eli
I don't see why the value of the Reply-To address would affect that.

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somid3
Because you can also unsubscribe by replying "unsubscribe if there is no link.
Part of CAN-SPAM.

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eli
CAN-SPAM likely doesn't apply to the message in the first place, but even if
it did it does not specifically require that you can unsubscribe by replying.
That's just an example of one method they can provide.

~~~
somid3
True. I was testing. They provide no method to unsubscribe.

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sebleon
Ha, of course this makes the homepage of HN. It's interesting to see what kind
of mistakes create outrage in this community.

~~~
somid3
True, but what if now every CEO of every company you have registered with
follows suit and you get 100s of emails with no unsubscribe.

~~~
sebleon
Yes, that would be terrible. It would be even worse if every CEO replicated
every mistake done by all other CEOs = theta(n^2) mistakes

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arma26
does CAN-SPAM apply to recruiter emails?

