
Bringing Silicon Valley to the Midwest - Aubric
http://blog.expensify.com/2014/04/09/bringing-silicon-valley-to-the-midwest/
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bane
This is potentially a great way to go and solve the "engineering shortage" in
the U.S. There are tons of qualified engineers in places all over the U.S.,
but S.V. never bothers to look for them. The great side benefit is that the
cost of living in most of the U.S. is much lower than on the coasts meaning
you can almost get 2 people in nowhere Alabama or Nashville, Someplace for the
price of 1 San Franciscan or 1 New Yorker.

They'll speak English, share a common-ish culture, and have gone through the
American educational system so interfacing with them isn't nearly as hard as
real offshored employees or contracted firms. They'll also be within
continental U.S. time-zones. You want to solve work visa problems? This is how
you do it.

I've met a few entrepreneurs who were self-funding and thus really cared about
their burn rate while building their product who opted for teams of devs in
overlooked places in the U.S.

If you want a starting point, checkout towns near DOE National Labs. They're
usually out in the middle of nowheresville (because of nukes) and are full of
incredibly educated, qualified people, who may have moved there for lab work
and ended up not like the stifling academic environment of National Labs.
There resumes may not be a string of startups, but they're used to working on
bleeding edge stuff and the cost of living in these areas is generally pretty
low.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_laboratory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_laboratory)

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nanidin
I don't see how two people producing the same output deserve different
salaries based on where they live - why should geographic location dictate my
salary relative to my peers?

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dlokshin
Because demand is less. The wage is still dictated by supply and demand. The
supply is probably less, but the demand for that labor is far less. The demand
for an engineer in the midwest is higher than the demand for an engineer in
Thailand because there are less time barriers, language barriers, etc.

A house in Palo Alto, CA costs more than the exact same house in Dexter,
Michigan. If they were made of the exact same materials on the exact same size
of land, you wouldn't expect them to cost the same either.

~~~
nanidin
I don't think the house comparison is a good example - a house in Palo Alto
can only be utilised in Palo Alto. A remote worker could work from anywhere
and produce the same output, regardless of location.

Pay levels based on location seem like a good way for companies to "save"
money by providing a convenient excuse to pay someone less for the same work.

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vonmoltke
That is correct. I, living in Dallas, am willing to sell my labor in Dallas
for a lower price than I am willing to sell my labor in Palo Alto. Thus, a
company in Palo Alto can save money by hiring me in Dallas to do the job.
There is nothing inconsistent about this.

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nightski
Price should be based on the value you are providing to your clients/employer.
Not your expenses.

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bane
If only the price of my house was based on the value I provide my employer.

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nightski
What does this have to do with anything? The amount you paid for a house is
based on it's value to you. Same as your employer and it's employees. I live
in the midwest - a cheap place to live. But I charge SV rates because of the
value I provide my clients. I don't have to charge "less" because I live in a
cheap area. It is irrelevant.

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geebee
Although I won't be moving to the midwest, I am rooting for this. I'm in SF
because I grew up here and have a lot of family in the area. I don't live here
because of the excellent salaries, because while the average software
developer here earns (according to sfgate and us news best jobs) between
$110,000 and $120,000 a year, the median 3br house costs 1.1 million.

It would be a great triumph if the tech industry found a way to function
without needing to move every software developer internationally into a the 48
square miles of SF plus a small corridor down the peninsula.

I've read about startups in Baltimore, St. Louis. These are bustling,
interesting old cities with cool architecture, walkable downtowns, great old
gardens and museums, and _vastly_ lower rents. If the tech industry could find
a way to convert some of those 110K a year jobs in SF into a large number of
$95k a year jobs in cincinatti or st. louis, it would have an exceptional
effect on the world.

And you know, if you are paying $110k in a place where a reasonably nice 3br
house can be had for $300k, I'd be a lot more receptive to worries of a worker
"shortage" than if you're offering that salary in a place where a 3br house is
$1.1.

So all I'm really saying here is good luck, I hope this works for everyone
involved.

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Pyrodogg
The Valley != Access to Tech Jobs

Most of the Midwest doesn't have a dying need for "The Valley". This article
reads a bit like SV is the saving grace of the Midwest, If only those people
had access to tech.

I think there's a very healthy tech scene in many areas of the Midwest. I live
in Minneapolis and there are plenty of local companies doing well with local
people. There are also quite a few local resources for entrepreneurs without
the need to be involved in SV.

For starters: [http://tech.mn/](http://tech.mn/)

~~~
aidenn0
When I graduated Purdue, 9 years ago, there was very little in the way of
software jobs at least (And I got the impression that the top companeis hiring
Mech E and EE students could be as selective as they wanted). I had to go to
one of the coasts to get a sane offer.

The only real job offer I got in Indiana was a one year contract for $30k/year
in Fort Wayne, which was less than half the salary for the non-contract
position I took in California. There is no sane cost of living adjustment that
will cause those to be comparable.

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shas3
Twin Cities and Chicago areas are exceptions to the rule, when it comes to
Midwest. Both have a healthy mix of old-school industrial giants, financial,
retail, and new tech and bio companies. This is different from other big
metros in the region like Detroit, Cleveland, Cincinnati, St. Louis, and
Indianapolis. Pittsburgh is another (arguably) Midwestern city that has a
growing new-tech/bio industry (Google and Intel + recently, old-school Bosch
Research Center + several medical-sector startups).

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WadeF
Folks love to talk about the Midwest as fly-over nation, but the Midwest is a
great place to hire. Of Zapier's 9 person team we have 4 people in the
Midwest: 2 engineers, 1 marketing, 1 support. And we have no intention of
stopping hiring in the Midwest.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Does it have to be the Midwest though? I'm in Chicago, and moving to Florida
due to the weather and less-brutal state income/property tax (and I can own a
sailboat).

TL;DR Don't overlook low-cost locales for talent.

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WadeF
Correct. We work with folks anywhere. :-)

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zedpm
There is absolutely an opportunity to hire talented people at affordable rates
outside major urban areas. I just finished an eight year adventure growing a
startup from nothing, and I did it remotely from South Dakota. In a few months
I'll be looking for another remote opportunity with a company like Expensify
that "gets it"; I'll get to work from my beautiful hometown and they'll likely
get talent cheaper than they could in an expensive major metro area.

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supergeek133
I wish more companies had this mentality, it's amazing how much talent pool
they are leaving out there by not allowing remote work for some positions.
Especially for those of us that live in the Midwest but cannot leave for any
number of reasons.

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bane
Honestly, the "right" way for companies to do it is to simple lease an office
near a concentration of a few workers. Even if it's just 4 or 5 employees, a
nice office with internet and a kitchen isn't very expensive. That way it's
not "remote" work, it's just another corporate office location.

Checking online in Kansas City, MO. 13,000 SF of office space runs < $10k/mo.
That's a bargain. Spot checking other places (Colorado Springs, Nashville)
doesn't run too much different.

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bchociej
That's exactly right. A friend of mine in St. Louis is currently negotiating
$14/sq.ft. down to, ideally, $12. Last I heard from my CxO friend in
California, he was excited to find $30.

To me, it's shocking that anyone would start a business out there. (Okay, not
really... there is a lot of money out there and it flows much more freely. But
I couldn't personally justify spending my cash on 2.5x more expensive real
estate!)

~~~
hagbardgroup
Quality of life is becoming much higher in both KC and STL over the last few
years. Residential rents and house prices are cheap. Offices are practically
free. The restaurants are becoming better and attuned to coastal
sensibilities.

One point that should be mentioned it that both STL and KCMO have significant
violent crime problems. The STL crime rate has been improving impressively.
When I went there recently, I was shocked by relative improvement.
Neighborhoods that were dilapidated in the mid-00s are now happening spots.

Flee the coasts! Opportunities await in the country!

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lost_name
I'm jealous -- I would love to telecommute from my home town in the Upper
Peninsula, but it just wasn't happening when I was looking for jobs after
college. I ended up moving to a bigger city just to get a job as a software
engineer.

Still looking for a way to get back home, though. There have been so few
options, and none where I felt I'd be able to advance my career. Self
employment has always been the most attractive option.

~~~
spitfire
You could always start your own company.

I loved the upper peninsula when I visited years ago. and it seemed /dirt/
cheap, I paid $20/night for a motel. Plus any place with Cornish pasties at
every stop steals my heart.

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jakestl
As a Midwesterner, I am slightly put off by the use of the term "outsourcing"
in the title. Considering the term wasn't used in the article I feel it
carries negative connotation. Maybe I am reading too deeply into this...

~~~
enjo
I have to admit, as a fly-over stater (Colorado) I found the tone be pretty
condescending. There's an air of "we're moving the stuff people in the valley
are to smart to do" to it. I'm not sure if it's intended, but it seems like
they think the midwest is only good for the entry level. That really amazing
developers don't exist outside of the valley.

If that's true, I for one hope they don't change their position. We're
building one hell of an engineering team and much of it is from the midwest.
If other folks figure this out, I'd have to actually compete for the best
developers!

~~~
wyclif
Is it possible to get an entry-level engineering job in the Valley today? It
doesn't seem like that's common at all. So if you're just starting out and
particularly if you don't happen to have a boutique degree, where are you
going to start at entry level as a developer? To me, it sounds like a great
way to hire.

~~~
htormey
Yes, their are plenty of startups with less brand name recognition hiring. A
friend of mine from a non technical background managed to get a decent PM job
after finishing hackbrite.

Alternatively you can get in the door of a brand name company by doing QA for
a year or so.I have multiple friends that transitioned from a liberals arts
degree to being developers by first starting in QA. It's totally possible.

Internships are also a good way to get your foot in the door.

~~~
wyclif
That's interesting; I never thought about the QA angle. Maybe you can say a
little more about how that works and what companies?

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htormey
Good QA people are incredibly hard to find, especially ones that can do
automated testing. One of my old managers started at Apple in QA and then
transitioned over to being a developer after a year or two. I’ve seen this
pattern a number of times. The potential risk is that many organizations won’t
allow you to leave QA. That may not be a problem if thats what you want to do.
QA can pay quite well if you are doing the right thing.

The way to play this is to go into an organization with a good brand name,
work hard, focus on automation as much as possible and if they won’t help you
transition over to being a developer leave after two years for a place that
will. Having a good brand on your resume will open a lot of doors. Also, if
you are going down this road its a good idea to build a portfolio of software
on github.

Devops is also a good option to consider. It really depends on what your
background is and what skills you bring to the table.

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imroot
I don't really call this "Outsourcing." I call it smart hiring.

I have two teams -- one in Cincinnati, and one in Walnut Hills, CA. On my
teams, I have a blend of about 60% onsite and 40% remote workers. I pay
equally across the board, with the guys in CA getting an extra $1K/month due
to the insane cost of living. I hire wherever I can find talent, and I find
technology that works to bring us together as a team regardless of our
location.

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wyclif
I'm really impressed by Expensify's approach to solving problems and working
with people.

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pasbesoin
This is sort of my dream. When, while on vacation, I saw that the state had
run fiber up to the local state park (a gorgeous, national park sized state
park), I asked whether private interests were also attached.

I have since heard that there were plans to upgrade backbone service to the
local town 13 miles away. Supposedly, an insurance company was going to host a
call center there -- although that part of the story and the party involved
sounded suspicious.

If you all want to explore whether this location might be one you want to add
to your list, shoot me an email. (Regardless of whether it does anything for
me, personally. I'd like to see the town do well.)

~~~
toomuchtodo
Which state park? I'm guessing Utah?

~~~
pasbesoin
It's in the same general area as the OP: Porcupine Mountains Wilderness State
Park, in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan.

Approximately 15 miles of Lake Superior shoreline, extending inward 3 - 5
miles, in the eastern part of the park over a series of parallel ridges that
are remant uplift of the old Lake Superior syncline.

One road around the boundary, and another up to a scenic overlook. The rest of
the park is accessed by trails.

If you like hiking and camping, or want to spring for one of the better cabin
rentals, it's a gorgeous, peaceful place.

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up_and_up
I currently live in Michigan and telecommute fulltime for a company on the
East Coast. I highly recommend it! It works well as our entire team is
distributed.

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zgohr
I approve this message, as I am a web software developer in the midwest. I'm
also involved in a great startup focused community here,
[http://digitalfertilizer.org/](http://digitalfertilizer.org/) with a network
of high quality developers and designers, many of whom are full-time employed
by startups all across the country.

I'm also on the market for remote work. Same username on Twitter.

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donretag
Good for them. It really helps when the entire company embraces a distributed
workforce and not just having that "one guy".

I live in California, two hours away from the Bay Area, and I still cannot
convince employers to hire remote. Yet they still send me recruiting emails.

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h1karu
why pick a geographic region at all ? Why not just hire the best people no
matter where they are ?

37signals.com/remote/

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forkandwait
[http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cedar_Rapids,_Iowa](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cedar_Rapids,_Iowa)

