
Scratch is probably the answer - davidgerard
http://reddragdiva.tumblr.com/post/127964136013/it-turns-out-scratch-is-probably-the-answer
======
ianbicking
I've only used Scratch a little, but I must admit I found the interface fairly
complex and arbitrary, somewhat reminiscent of the complexity and
arbitrariness of normal programming syntaxes. As simple a thing as putting one
new instruction in between two existing instructions can be a multi-stepped
process, creating temporary intermediate structures that work better. But
admittedly I didn't power through (or rather, power through with the kid) to
the other side, so it might have ultimately been simpler than textual syntax,
even if it's not actually easy.

Hopscotch, an iOS app basically like Scratch
([https://www.gethopscotch.com/](https://www.gethopscotch.com/)), seemed
significantly better in this respect. The quality of your draggable UI matters
quite a bit in a graphical language! Given how few of these languages exist,
maybe it's not the model but just a lack of rigor applied to the UI challenges
of the model.

~~~
mayukh
Another datapoint: I downloaded scratch junior for the ipad and felt that it
was overtly complex and left it at that. The next day my 5 year old discovers
the app and before I knew it had figured out animations and scene transitions.
He had previously used another app (Toontastic) and I think that helped with
figuring out scratch. Its one of his favorite apps now and he can't wait to
show me his latest projects!

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adpirz
Having taught 8th graders programming in Scratch and now building an
introductory curriculum for high school freshmen with it, I can say that
Scratch does an incredible job of honing in on the major algorithmic and data-
based abstractions without having to worry about students comfort level with
typing or even how much exposure they've had to computing at all. It also
makes these concepts very visual, which serves as great reference once you
start working with text based code. I'm a huge, huge fan.

~~~
davidgerard
(original poster here)

I need to research my daughter's curriculum in detail, and see when they get
to e.g. variables and loops.

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Raed667
I tried to introduce Scratch for 10-11 year old kids in my country about 2
years ago. I was willing to teach 6 hours a week for free to do so. But the
bureaucracy got the better of me. I'm happy to see that this is working
somewhere.

~~~
davidgerard
Hopefully the UK will serve as an example. I think Microsoft and Google
explicitly backing the project helped a lot.

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tl
The "try it now" button returns "Oh Noes! Scratch project cannot display."
(because Flash), and the "Offline Editor" (in small print at the bottom of the
page) appears to be based on Adobe Air.

When was Scratch changed to require Adobe products? I do not recall this being
a thing in the past when Scratch was "just" a Smalltalk image.

~~~
davidgerard
They're in a maintenance window. The website uses Flash, the download uses
Adobe Air.

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Nelson69
How about Alice? [http://www.alice.org](http://www.alice.org)

Similar idea and tool-set but it's 3 dimensional scenes and worlds.

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
Years ago when I was younger, I tried to make an FPS in Alice, and didn't
manage it. It's not quite as easy to work with as Scratch (with which I cloned
Space Invaders and Pong).

I'm also not sure about Alice's love affair with Java. You can make it display
the drag-and-drop code blocks in a pseudo-Java style, or make it display
actual (uneditable) Java code in a separate pane. But is this actually
helpful? Is it really a good idea to try to move from Alice to a "real"
language?

------
memracom
I also have an 8 year-old daughter who not only spends endless hours at
scratch.mit.edu coding apps, she also gets here friends (here in Canada) to do
the same.

And if you have a look at the site you will see that not only are they
learning coding and development skills, but they are also learning the ins and
outs of social media.

~~~
current_call
_And if you have a look at the site you will see that not only are they
learning coding and development skills, but they are also learning the ins and
outs of social media._

Why did you have to ruin this for me? I know you didn't mean to, but still.

~~~
hardmath123
Scratch's community is very different from other kinds of social media: it's
strictly regulated by the MIT folks, so content is always friendly, welcoming,
and age-appropriate. As a result of this, people tend to be encouraged to work
together: you would be surprised what 10-year-old kids have produced together.
A large part of Scratch culture is "collaborations" and "companies" which can
produce large pieces of software with really incredible co-operation--better
than a lot of adults I deal with :-)

I guess Scratch as a social network tries very hard to de-emphasize numbers:
there isn't a "karma" and "likes" don't bring you much (interestingly, the
number of "remixes", or derivative works of your project, is emphasized much
more).

I can point you to some of the LLK's published papers on this if you're
interested.

(Source: Scratch community member for >5 years.)

~~~
current_call
_I guess Scratch as a social network tries very hard to de-emphasize numbers:
there isn 't a "karma" and "likes" don't bring you much (interestingly, the
number of "remixes", or derivative works of your project, is emphasized much
more)._

That doesn't really sound like "social media".

 _I can point you to some of the LLK 's published papers on this if you're
interested._

I'd appreciate that.

~~~
hardmath123
> That doesn't really sound like "social media".

It's "social" in the sense that it's a large community where people share
things they create, make friends and have discussions. What would you say
"social media" needs beyond that?

> I'd appreciate that.

Here are a few:

[https://download.scratch.mit.edu/hill_monroy-
hernandez_olson...](https://download.scratch.mit.edu/hill_monroy-
hernandez_olson_ICWSM10.pdf)

[https://download.scratch.mit.edu/cscw2010poster2.pdf](https://download.scratch.mit.edu/cscw2010poster2.pdf)

[https://download.scratch.mit.edu/websci09-andresmh.pdf](https://download.scratch.mit.edu/websci09-andresmh.pdf)

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indralukmana
Right now I am passing through the Oracle Academy programs. The designed
curriculum are using Alice and Greenfoot for developing familiarities with
programming world. Me myself think that it is a great way for introducing
programming in a "fun" way. Maybe anyone else have thoughts on this.

------
TurboHaskal
Honestly it looks idiotic. No wonder the current generation can't even use
Google properly.

I've learned programming just fine with an old Basic book. We should stop
treating our children like clueless morons.

~~~
davidgerard
This is literally for small children, to attract them with bright colours and
dancing ballerinas and so on. The most important thing at this point being to
_catch their interest_ in becoming a wizard like us.

And as I note, it actually seems to work, which is you'll admit a bit of a
plus point.

Per the article, Key Stage 3 (11yo and up) teaches them at least one "textual
language" [https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-
curricul...](https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-curriculum-
in-england-computing-programmes-of-study/national-curriculum-in-england-
computing-programmes-of-study#key-stage-3) It doesn't clarify what that is,
but I strongly suspect it would be Python.

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hcccc
I believe Scratch has been part of the national primary education curriculum
in China for a few years now. The coming generation is going to completely
leapfrog their western counterpart.

~~~
davidgerard
If you have any details on this I would be _most_ interested! dgerard at gmail

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kevinpet
I'm very interested in teaching my kids to program, and so this is probably of
interest to me, but I stopped reading after the first sentence because I would
rather not need to slog through assertions of political identity to get to
them.

~~~
davidgerard
NON-POLITICS: what I'm used to

POLITICS: anything I'm not used to

I mean, you just said "I literally didn't read this past the first sentence
but I commented anyway." That's not helpful posting per the rules.

