
Thawing permafrost is destroying Arctic cities (2016) - perfunctory
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/oct/14/thawing-permafrost-destroying-arctic-cities-norilsk-russia
======
akeck
Apparently there's tech called a thermosyphon to keep permafrost under
foundations frozen.

[https://mass.pbslearningmedia.org/resource/nvmms.sci.phys.pe...](https://mass.pbslearningmedia.org/resource/nvmms.sci.phys.permafrost/preserving-
permafrost/)

~~~
Anthony-G
That's mentioned in the article, alright:

> If temperature monitoring or visible deformations tip maintenance workers
> off in time, structures can be saved. Thermosyphons were installed to cool
> the soil under the apartment block at 36 Nansen Street when temperature
> probes showed warming there, for instance.

> But sometimes changes come too suddenly. A brick office building on
> Komsomolskaya street cracked like an egg one September morning in 2009 and
> stands empty to this day. A top corner of the building pitched forward 70cm,
> sending jagged fissures up the middle of its facade and squashing windows.

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trhway
>To avoid this, in the 1960s builders of apartment blocks in Norilsk began
drilling holes up to 100-ft deep and pouring reinforced concrete piles that
stuck into the permanently frozen soil below.

100ft would be enough for quite some time. From my short stints in the
construction industry (specializing in foundations) in Siberia during college
summers (“stroyotryad”) 30 years ago I don’t remember anything being done to
the full specs and without cutting corners. Using full power of my imagination
I still can’t picture somebody doing it 100ft there when 30ft would look the
same :)

~~~
asdfasgasdgasdg
The article seems to suggest as much -- the real issue is excess moisture
causing re-frozen soil to expand more than it should, damaging the upper
portions of the piles. I can hardly imagine that an extra two feet of thawing
alone are affecting the stability of piles 100 feet deep.

------
nn3
While they will may have temporary problems in places I suspect Siberia will
be a long term winner from climate change.

All the people displaced from flooded coastal settlements have to move
somewhere after all.

~~~
brm
There aren’t going to be long term winners from climate change. They might be
less affected but it’s not going to be good. New illnesses, food scarcity and
other things will only make some places “winnings” a relative thing.

Would you consider a tornado that levels your house a long term winner for
your basement?

~~~
9nGQluzmnq3M
No, there are places that are borderline unhabitable now that will become more
livable as the climate warms. Here's one study:

[http://blogs.cuit.columbia.edu/jmp2265/?page_id=48](http://blogs.cuit.columbia.edu/jmp2265/?page_id=48)

As a tangible example, Greenland is now starting to be warm enough to grow
potatoes:

[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6993612.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6993612.stm)

~~~
2_listerine_pls
Isn't the methane release going to accelerate the warming exponentially to the
point of mass-extintion? The so-called feedback effect. Permafrost is thawing
70 years before the simplistic models predicted:

\- [https://www.livescience.com/65709-arctic-permafrost-melts-
de...](https://www.livescience.com/65709-arctic-permafrost-melts-decades-
early.html)

\- [https://envisionation.co.uk/index.php/nick-
breeze/203-subsea...](https://envisionation.co.uk/index.php/nick-
breeze/203-subsea-permafrost-on-east-siberian-arctic-shelf-now-in-accelerated-
decline)

Also, there is Nitrous Oxide too, which will deplete the Ozone layer:

\- [https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2019/06/harvard-
chemi...](https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2019/06/harvard-chemist-
permafrost-n2o-levels-12-times-higher-than-expected/)

~~~
9nGQluzmnq3M
I'm not qualified to comment on whether Earth will eventually end up looking
like Venus, I'm just pointing out that _in the short term_ there will be
places that gain from climate change as well.

~~~
m0zg
I think it's pretty safe to say that Earth will not end up looking like Venus
from a simple fact that there were times in its history when greenhouse gas
concentrations were much higher than even the wildest projections you'd see
today, and yet here we are. Now granted, there weren't any people back then,
but the planet did not turn into Venus.

------
olivermarks
2016 article, entertaining Guardian comment thread below

~~~
dang
Ah thanks. Added above.

------
m0zg
The problem is as old as permafrost itself: I remember reading as a child
about problems with permafrost stability (or rather lack thereof) when they
were building БАМ (Baikal-Amur Mainline). They'd lay tracks only to watch them
be torn by permafrost movement a year or two (or sometimes a month) later.
Somehow they did figure out how to make things stable enough for the railway
to be operational. It is currently being upgraded to double the capacity.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baikal%E2%80%93Amur_Mainline](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baikal%E2%80%93Amur_Mainline)

~~~
mempko
The problem is getting worse very fast. While the permafrost was always
somewhat unstable , what is happening now is unprecedented.

------
cozzyd
Hard to weep for the most polluted city in the world about this.

------
edejong
Yet another alarmist article stretching to find a relationship with our man-
made climate change.

It is sowing doubt instead. Press (especially the far-left Guardian) should
think twice publishing this. There are much better indicators such as
bleaching of corals and global satellite measurements.

------
ageofwant
All those ancient prions, viruses and bacteria that the world have not been
exposed to for eons, now floating in the air and water, may very well be the
best solution to the human overpopulation problem.

~~~
antonvs
It's very unlikely. This article goes into more detail:

[https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2018/01/24/5759742...](https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2018/01/24/575974220/are-
there-zombie-viruses-in-the-thawing-permafrost)

The summary is that most of those viruses and bacteria are long dead, and in
those cases where something was frozen recently enough to still be viable,
you'd most likely need to go to extreme lengths - like "kneeling in defrosted
marine mammal goo" \- to get infected by it.

~~~
rolltiide
So like how Ebola spreads got it, not very improbable at all

Dead viruses and bacteria are resurrected just be being exposed to a single
live version of itself

~~~
antonvs
You'll notice there's not much Ebola in the world. Despite the sensationalist
"Hot Zone" journalism around it, it's not a serious threat in first world
countries.

The reason is precisely because the precautions one needs to take to avoid it
are just basic hygiene that we take for granted.

> Dead viruses and bacteria are resurrected just be being exposed to a single
> live version of itself

Did you read the article I linked? Perhaps you should have told that to the
scientists who tried but failed to culture frozen organisms.

If they can't culture it in a lab, then the chances of it reviving on its own
in the wild are very low.

I can't believe we're discussing a literal X-Files plot as though it's
scientifically realistic.

~~~
rolltiide
> Did you read the article I linked? Perhaps you should have told that to the
> scientists who tried but failed to culture frozen organisms.

I missed that part. Pretty cool

It still only takes 1 live compatible one to come in contact with the frozen
organism that still has enough biological data intact. There are so many
organisms in the soil that we don't know about such that I don't consider it
improbable.

