
Life and death in Apple’s forbidden city - clumsysmurf
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jun/18/foxconn-life-death-forbidden-city-longhua-suicide-apple-iphone-brian-merchant-one-device-extract
======
peterburkimsher
I went to Shenzhen and worked for Egoman, a Chinese company that made the
first batch of Raspberry Pis, before that manufacturing got moved to Wales.

The dormitories look typical. I arranged to stay in one through a different
friend; mine wasn't arranged by the company.

Now I'm in Taiwan, and life is better here. Factories are newer and cleaner,
and working hours are more sane. Chinese factories often set long shifts
because there's nothing to do in the local area except work. Kaohsiung has
much more local culture than Shenzhen, so the workers are more interested in
time off, and happier for it.

I've been here for 3 years to get the necessary work experience for future
visas. I'm now considering other options, particularly New Zealand or
Australia, where my girlfriend and I both want to go.

Please ask me if you have any other questions, I'm willing to share my
experiences.

~~~
devrandomguy
Based on your name, I assume that you are not ethnically Asian. Do you find
racism / xenophobia to be a significant issue for you in either Shenzhen or
Taiwan? As a very white Canadian, if I wanted to explore, work and travel for
years on end, and was willing to live at the same financial level as the
locals, would that be offensive to them?

~~~
davidzweig
China seemed to me like a pretty down-to-earth place, people are pragmatic and
generally accepting of foreigners. There are many different ethnic groups. If
you stick around a while and work on your Mandarin, I think you can find your
place quite ok. Kunming is a nice city, and the surrounding area is very
pretty.

Some photos from a trip here:
[https://goo.gl/photos/FawpURbZweNNQt288](https://goo.gl/photos/FawpURbZweNNQt288)

I am working on some electronics and will be back in Shenzhen sometime this
year, although I'm not sure if I will stay on much longer afterwards, I don't
know if it's that much fun to live there.

~~~
archagon
OMG, those mountains! If I lived there, I would wake up every day in awe.

------
Retric
It's important to remember employed people normally have a lower suicide rate
than average. So Foxcon's rate is similar to the national average, but higher
than the national average of employed people.

~~~
tooltalk
Let's not forget that the average age of Foxconn worker is only 23. According
to (somewhat dated) WHO, that age group has the lowest suicide rate
([http://www.who.int/mental_health/media/chin.pdf](http://www.who.int/mental_health/media/chin.pdf))

Number of suicides by age group and gender. CHINA (mainland, selected rural
and urban areas*), 1999.

Age (years) 5-14 15-24 25-34 35-44 45-54 55-64 65-74 75+ All

Males 83 626 1357 1287 1196 1165 1325 1009 8048

Females 64 915 1937 1351 1186 1017 1273 1045 8788

Total 147 1541 3294 2638 2382 2182 2598 2054 16836

the same age group has the lowest suicide rates in other countries (eg, US) as
well.

~~~
fludlight
You should look at per capita suicide rates because populations are not
distributed evenly by age group. Also, China in 1999 was a very different
country so it's difficult to draw conclusions from this dataset about the
situation there today.

~~~
tooltalk
Sure, I also accounted for the One-Child policy which started in 1979. It
still supports the conclusion that the suicide rate is much lower for that age
group:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_China#/media/F...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_China#/media/File:China_Sex_By_Age_2010_census.png)

------
mfrykman
A friend of mine is an investigative journalist in China - he spent a while
working in a helmet foam factory and living in a dorm such as the one in the
article.

He heard rumors that the Chinese mafia would pay workers to commit suicide at
Foxconn in exchange for money for their family in the countryside. The mafia
would then threaten suicide attempts as leverage to extort concessions from
Foxconn.

Not sure if it's true (was only a rumor), but certainly got me thinking about
it from another perspective.

Some of my buddy's work:

[https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/yvwj3k/chinas-21st-
centur...](https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/yvwj3k/chinas-21st-century-
eunuchs-v23-n3)

[http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/roads/2015/0...](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/roads/2015/09/xian_village_the_residents_of_an_ancient_village_in_southern_china_are_in.html)

~~~
dopamean
Honestly, that sounds like a convenient rumor for Foxconn.

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afpx
The only thing that I can add is an anecdote.

Around 2000, I worked at a startup that was streamlining the globalization
logistics for large manufacturers. One aspect of our software was a
qualitative and quantitative rating system for factories in low-cost
countries. One of our largest challenges was coming up with reliable scoring
metrics that couldn't be gamed by the factories. Because Of this, we
eventually had to resort to randomly sending physical auditors to factories.

I wasn't part of that side of the business, but we had systems that allowed
these auditors to enter data and notes. It wasn't uncommon for them to report
on suicides. At the time, we didn't know much about Chinese culture beyond
what we understood through movies and such, so we thought that 'suicide' was a
euphemism for 'forced suicide'. Who knows - But, people would just disappear,
at least at a seemingly higher rate in China than elsewhere. It was quite
chilling.

~~~
matt4077
Please note that the myth of a high rate of suicides at Apple's factories has
been proven to be an invention.

~~~
tajen
Given how many times it's been said and how sensible the question is, would
you have a source for that?

~~~
jdietrich
It's simple maths. In the worst year for suicides, Foxconn had 14 deaths out
of 930,000 workers. Divide one by the other and you get a remarkably low
suicide rate by any standard.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides)

~~~
random023987
> It's simple maths. In the worst year for suicides, Foxconn had 14 deaths out
> of 930,000 workers. Divide one by the other and you get a remarkably low
> suicide rate by any standard.

You need to take it one step further; you should compare it to the suicide
rate of healthy, employed young adults. If (for example) the suicide rate is
higher than employed adults, but comparable to unemployed, it would show a
serious problem at the factory.

In many industrialized countries suicide rates are not spread equally across
all demographic groups.

~~~
valuearb
What is the suicide rate for young adults stuck working brutal rural farm
jobs? Because that's what most of Foxconn employees waiting in line to escape.

------
jp_sc
Doesn't Foxconn also manufacture products for many other companies? It doesn't
matter because, at the end of the article:

"This is an edited extract from The One Device: The Secret History of the
iPhone by Brian Merchant, published by Bantam Press (£16.99). To order a copy
for £14.44 go to bookshop.theguardian.com"

~~~
briffle
They recently announced they are going to build a huge $10Billion plant in
Wisconsin to build LCD screens. (likely related to their Sharp acquisition)

~~~
tapatio
Only if they get the massive tax breaks they are demanding.

~~~
derping69
a small slice of pie is better than all of a non-existent pie because the pie
relocated to another state or country

~~~
nobodyorother
With the 3BN tax-dollar giveaway, Wisconsin will not receive any positive pie
returns from Foxconn until 2043. Assuming Foxconn doesn't move on to another
location in 2042.

It's worth pointing out that Wisconsin is giving billions to a company where
working conditions so bad that workers have been killing themselves there
since 2010: "It wouldn’t be Foxconn without people dying."

~~~
DanBC
> It's worth pointing out that Wisconsin is giving billions to a company where
> working conditions so bad that workers have been killing themselves there
> since 2010

Suicide is very common. Pick any large company and you'll find similar rates
of death by suicide.

~~~
vacri
I pick Apple's California campuses. Now, where are the people flinging
themselves off company buildings there?

This apologism misses the fact that the Foxconn suicide statistics are about
suicide attempts on company grounds reported to the company. Most suicide
attempts aren't known to the company - if someone dies outside the company,
it's not necessarily known to the company or counted as part of the aggregate
statistics.

I've known two people attempt suicide, and neither of them let their workplace
know. Similarly, a friend of a friend committed suicide by flinging himself
from a hospital roof - do you really think his company would count his death
as being due to their workplace? Of course not, what company would ever tie a
suicide to themselves if they could avoid it, regardless of whether they
contributed to it.

In short, your argument makes the false assumption that the people killing
themselves at their workplace are the _only_ suicides in that demographic.

~~~
nupertino
[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3561995/Police-
inves...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3561995/Police-
investigating-possible-suicide-Apple-s-headquarters.html)

Although I don’t know what this does to your statistics; Foxconn employed and
houses 2x magnitude more workers vs the apple campus (which houses none)

------
bwang29
This is an extremely well written story, I kept imaging action scenes from
thriller.

But I kept wondering the legality of actually stepping into an iPhone fab
without permission. As the journalists might be seen as given prior approval,
what if they saw the new iPhone and how does journalism in here functions
toward revealing information v.s. respecting policies. I also felt that the
reason this article was written is only for partially humanitarian cause, but
still largely trying to capture curiosities from readership, and the risks
definitely seem to have paid off.

------
tziki
One thing I always find chilling about stories like these is the description
of work - specifically, how easily it can be automated. Very few people in
western countries depend on jobs like these, but your average Chinese doesn't
have much padding against automation taking away this type of jobs. Articles
like these make me feel very lucky to have been born into a country which
gives me enough opportunities to pad myself against obsolescence.

~~~
codyb
I wouldn't say very few, driving is a large portion of many breadwinners
duties whether they're cab drivers or truck drivers and those jobs will very
shortly in the grand scheme of things be automated out.

Tellers, and clerks are another big group of people who might be hit pretty
hard by automation.

~~~
rubidium
If the automated checkout at the grocery is any indication, truckers will be
ok :)

~~~
seanmcdirmid
I've been using automated checkout at Ralph's for a year now, couldn't be
happier.

------
Grustaf
If they beat a journalist for taking photos from the outside, I'm quite
worried what they'll do to the guard that let the author in.

------
maxk42
38 suicide attempts among 450,000 workers would place Foxconn's suicide rate
at lower than the general suicide rate across the US.

~~~
DanBC
Yes, 38 per 450,000 people would be a bit lower than the current US rate.

It's very hard to compare suicide rates internationally because different
countries have different definitions, and the people who do the counting are
not consistent.

The US probably undercounts suicide. The age standardised rate is roughly 13
per 100,000

China definitely undercounts suicide.

------
icu
As consumers we have the power to vote with our wallet. I'm actually proud to
say that the last Apple product I bought was the iPad generation 1 for these
exact ethical reasons.

I'd really encourage others to look at the companies they buy from and see if
they align with your morals before making a purchase.

~~~
simonh
What phone and/or tablet do you use?

Clients of Foxconn include Amazon, Microsoft, Cisco, HP, Dell, Huawei,
Nintendo, Sony, Toshiba, Motorola, Blackberry and many more. They don't just
make iPhones. Next time you look at an XBox or Switch, guess where it came
from? Do you know that workers prefer to work on the Apple lines because Apple
has greater say in the factory conditions than the other clients and pays the
workers on their lines more? When you looked into the companies you buy from,
how far did that research go?

~~~
icu
I use a Fairphone based on Ethical Consumer's research
([http://www.ethicalconsumer.org/mobile/phonebroadband/mobilep...](http://www.ethicalconsumer.org/mobile/phonebroadband/mobilephones.aspx?mobileversion=true))

I still have my iPad Generation 1 as my use case for it is reading epub and
pdfs and that hasn't changed since 2010. Also my ethical stance with regards
too my consumerism is something I've been doing since 2014.

Granted my laptop is a Dell XPS 15 9550 and while the machine itself is very
environmentally friendly Dell's ethical practices leave a lot wanting but so
do the other ultrabook manufacturers. In my line of work I am often client
facing therefore I need form and function. I'm at least aware of the trade off
and my eyes are open with regards to whom I'm supporting with my money.

To answer your question about how far I go, I rely on Ethical Consumer a lot
and my own internet searches before making a purchase. Of course I'm also on
the lookout for reputable news articles that are focused on this area good or
bad.

~~~
simonh
Well, personally I have no problem supporting highly sought after jobs in
China, and industries that have helped raise hundreds of millions of people
out of poverty and transformed the country into a modern advanced nation. If
you'd seen what China was like the first time I went in 2001 and saw it again
today, you might understand.

~~~
icu
Yes I've been to China and in a way I supported China's growth by founding a
sunglasses marketing and distribution company when i was 18 that grew
exceptionally well in New Zealand (50% market share for under $20 price
point).

Our manufactures were in Guangzhou and Xiamen.

One thing that struck me when I was in China once was that human life didn't
seem as valued as in the West. This planted a seed that had a profound
influence on my thinking.

At that time I didn't think about ethics in our supply chain, my focus was
solely on survival and then growth... but as I've gotten older I've seen how
that's part of the problem. Consumers generally don't see the whole picture
and they largely don't care. The theory goes if consumers did start to care,
and changed their purchasing habits accordingly, the whole supply chain would
be forced to change.

------
teemo91
How economically feasible is it to automate assembly? It looks like a lot of
human suffering can be lessened if at least some parts of assembly are
automated.

~~~
simonh
Have you ever been to the Chinese countryside? I have, my wife is Chinese. My
wife's sister is disabled and married a man from the countryside, a common
arrangement in China, so I have relatives from the country. Trust me, sending
all those workers back home really isn't going to do an awful lot to reduce
human suffering. They choose to go and take those jobs for good reasons.

Many of the workers in those factories are women. After a few years, they
often go back home as the wealthiest members of their families, with enough
capital to build homes and start new businesses of their own. It's actually
started a distinct demographic trend. People have all sorts of bizarre ideas
about china. Sure the conditions in these factories are awful by western
standards, but China isn't the west. The same basis for making decisions just
don't apply. Hopefully they will one day, but we're not there yet.

------
basicplus2
Reason enough not to buy apple

~~~
emsy
Apple is about one of the very few companies that at least have a program to
check and improve working condition of their manufacturers. If you don't want
to be a hypocrite, you've got to stop buying most tech all together.

