
Higher Education Erodes - simonsarris
https://medium.com/@simon.sarris/higher-education-erodes-a7c9983692e0
======
program_whiz
This trend is based in our culture's obsession with equality of outcomes.
Rather than telling those who are struggling to change culture or virtue -- we
assume the "system" is at fault and force a change there. As the author
pointed out, HS graduation rate is the symptom not the cause to be treated.

As an example, asians whether immigrant or American-born typically have the
best credit, highest graduation rates, pursue higher education, and have the
highest paying / stable jobs of any culture.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_U...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income)

Either you are racist and think "asians are better than everyone else", or you
have to concede that culture and virtues are the cause -- since they too are
in the same education system. They simply emphasize the right priorities,
convey those to children, and teach functional life skills (conscientiousness,
hard work, etc).

~~~
pm90
You make a good point but I think its not accurate to conflate race with
culture, although the two do seem intertwined. I tend to believe that, if a
white kid (say) was brought up by Asian parents, he/she would probably have
the same qualities as an asian kid.

So its not racist to say that Asian _culture_ values different things than the
mainstream American culture, which is perhaps why Asian Americans tend to be
more educated and gainfully employed.

~~~
zmoreira
I'm sorry to bring bad news, but you are probably wrong. Kids tend to be like
their biological parents. [http://quillette.com/2015/12/01/why-parenting-may-
not-matter...](http://quillette.com/2015/12/01/why-parenting-may-not-matter-
and-why-most-social-science-research-is-probably-wrong/)

~~~
pm90
That is a very revealing article, thanks for sharing!

I think one interesting point the article makes is that parenting really
doesn't matter much, except when parents do something extreme to affect the
behaviors of their children. I wonder if parents' extreme desire for their
children's scholastic success could be categorized as such? Anecdotally,
growing up in India, I remember being hit by my parents as a younger kid; the
physical violence stopped when I became a teenager, but my parents were quick
to show their extreme displeasure and worry when I would get low grades in
High School.

Not to suggest that all Asian/South Asian households are violent towards their
children, of course. Although, I do trust research over anecdata, so I will
agree with you that it might just be a genetic thing.

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Klockan
The real problem is that if you need a person who knows things like reading,
writing and basic maths then you better ask for a 4 year degree since high
school graduates are no longer expected to know those things. This is a huge
problem for all of those who actually learn the things you should in high
school since they will be forced to pay a ton of money and spend 4 years just
to show that they aren't idiots.

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jseliger
I've written this before, but part of the problem is that "college" means such
a wide array of institutions, experiences, and instruction that it's almost
meaningless: [https://jakeseliger.com/2014/04/27/paying-for-the-party-
eliz...](https://jakeseliger.com/2014/04/27/paying-for-the-party-elizabeth-
armstrong-and-laura-hamilton) .

That being said, it's definitely true that the college system has evolved to
perpetuate itself, as the author writes:

 _Cal State is setting an example for the re-definition of “college readiness”
towards “willingness to sit tight and pay the cash.”_

I also like to tell students that college is a multiplier of their own
motivation and actions. If students don't read (and many apparently don't:
[https://jakeseliger.com/2017/08/28/igen-jean-m-twenge-the-
ki...](https://jakeseliger.com/2017/08/28/igen-jean-m-twenge-the-kids-arent-
all-right/)) then they aren't going to get that much out of college. A lot of
their experience is up to them.

~~~
sdenton4
Yeah, the article spends a bunch of verbiage handwringing about standards at
community colleges, which is not representative of higher education generally.
Honestly, we do have a huge trade school system in the US, certainly not
enough to handle all of the lower skilled people who 'should' be in them;
community college is the closest large scale analog to a trade school system
is the US. (And, arguably, we want or woodworkers to understand basic algebra,
too, if we don't want or couches breaking...)

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Multicomp
Well duh.

Between cliques, crazy parties, and general irresponsibility, I ended up
treating getting my bachelor's degree as I treated my HS diploma: that place I
have to go to for four years while avoiding just about every so-called 'social
engagement' that takes place after 5pm.

Of course students will need the requirements nerfed down to nothing - when
only three or four other people besides me got enough sleep at night to be
awake at the 8AM class, who can blame the schools for trying to adjust their
expectations of these students?

~~~
notfromhere
that sounds like a terrible way to do college

~~~
baldfat
I worked 3 years as a Resident Director. I blame the low academic standards
for this way of college. People drop out of college just because they can't
get to their seats for class on time and can't hand in assignments. The cost
of failing to do these things don't really kick in federally till after their
sophomore year.

I can't tell you how many people were dumbfounded that their 1.25 GPA meant
they had to go to community college to bring up their GPA before they could
continue the "College Life." Or they just bum around the college for 2 years +
working a mind numbing job.

I have had a few success stories in my years in college life. I kind of hate
seeing young adults throwing away and just wouldn't let their lack of life
skills destroy their potential. It usually meant a meeting in my office where
I have backing powder and hydrogenation peroxide and me knocking on their dorm
door at 8 AM for a month.

~~~
spraak
> where I have backing powder and hydrogenation peroxide

What's that for?

~~~
baldfat
Example of Potential. If you have opportunity and ability but you don't
combine the two you don't get the potential from chemistry. Just like their
wasted opportunity that is their college career.

ALSO it helps with the smell of unwashed clothes, and poor hygiene (Especially
smelly hair I LEARNED TO HATE THAT SMELL). I would also boil white vinegar in
my tea pot when the smell got really bad.

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thebiglebrewski
This is just really sad to me. The saddest thing - I can't even imagine a
world where the current administration in power in the US gives a sh)t about
this, at all. We're f)cked in a few years because other countries care so much
more about the important things.

~~~
5trokerac3
We've had decades to turn this around. Neither party gives a shit. In fact,
they both directly benefit from a drop in critical thinking ability among the
general populace.

I truly believe the next generation's elite will primarily be those whose
parent's were smart enough and well-to-do enough to take them out of one size
fits all public education and put them in Socratic, Montessori, or some other
alternate school.

~~~
thebiglebrewski
...do you really think that neither party gives a shit though? These days I
kind of find that hard to believe, at least as far as the people in the White
House now...

~~~
5trokerac3
Well, love or have DeVos's plans, she's trying to change the status quo, while
we spent the last 16 years doubling down on it.

~~~
thebiglebrewski
Haha wait though, why is good to "change the status quo" if it results in deep
cuts to public school funding (in support of "school choice")?
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/trumps-
first-...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/trumps-first-full-
education-budget-deep-cuts-to-public-school-programs-in-pursuit-of-school-
choice/2017/05/17/2a25a2cc-3a41-11e7-8854-21f359183e8c_story.html?utm_term=.d6ab9fa4aecb)

Is this what you're saying?

To talk about my views a little, I disagree with the whole, "No Child Left
Behind" thing and increased standardized testing. I think we need to worry
more about kids getting into what they're learning and learning all the
critical skills they need like reading comprehension, algebra/math, critical
thinking, etc, rather than focusing on test results (which don't seem to
support that goal).

Yeah, change the status quo, but the change she's supporting don't seem to
help the issue we're discussing here - unless you have some contrary sources?
Down to hear about them.

~~~
Agustus
A test is an evaluation of knowledge leveraged or gained. If the test is
seeing a significant number of failures, then it is indicates that instruction
is not aligning with the evaluation metric. Students should be measured and
addressed according to each individual's aptitude; there is no reason for our
goal to be 100% students going to college. 100% going to college means the
colleges have lowered their standards.

The current situation is that the public school system (K-12) has one goal:
College bound. There is no method while in this system to adapt a student to a
trade. Germany does a good job of telling students that they are not college
material and then having a non shamed option to pursue (trade or
apprenticeships). In America, someone saying they are without a college degree
is shamed or looked down upon; unless they are an entrepreneur who makes it
big.

Betsy deVos can upset the status quo because in the last twenty years have you
seen a change in the education system that would address the individuals who
are not college material? Is there a program in place that can upend the crazy
bureaucracy that currently exists maintaining the aforementioned binary
outcome from K-12.

As an aside, the federal government's education programs create compliance
structures that increase rent seeking systems that increase the bureaucratic
overhead. An example of this is to look at the increase in administrative
personnel at a university for the past twenty years. Most colleges have a
tooth to tail ratio increase, high schools have seen administrative bloat
significantly increase to take advantage of the grants available.

~~~
thebiglebrewski
Ok, I can kinda agree with what you're saying Agustus. But do you really think
Betsy Devos is going to make this any better? If so, through what concrete
policy objectives (besides just "upsetting the status quo")?

------
taylodl
Shouldn't the market take care of this? Apparently there are colleges willing
to "dumb-down" their curriculum to maintain graduation rates, but those
colleges will become a black mark on one's CV and so the good students would
choose not to attend those colleges, right?

~~~
qq66
This is happening, but unfortunately information is not perfect (a random
hiring manager doesn't know that Cal State is loosening requirements but
Oregon State is not) so actually the brand value of all state and community
colleges is decreasing, which will have the opposite to desired effect on
social mobility. CUNY has probably graduated as many Nobel Laureates as MIT
undergrad, but it will be tarred with the same brush of "the average college
graduate isn't what he or she used to be."

A similar effect is happening in the US political arena where people are being
called "-ist" for a wider range of transgressions than previously. Rather than
increasing the political penalty for these offenses, the expansion of the
terminology has actually weakened the associated opprobrium, because people
think of being "-ist" as a less bad offense since so many more people seem to
be doing it these days.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
>weakened the associated opprobrium, because people think of being "-ist" as a
less bad offense since so many more people seem to be doing it these days.

This applies to all rules that govern what we consider normal behavior.

When (basically) everyone is ignoring the insanely low posted speed limit the
result is (basically) everyone driving the speed they feel appropriate for the
conditions.

When everyone knows a few gay people nobody sees the point to criminalizing
being gay.

A lot of people were STFUing because they were afraid of not being PC. Now
that people are seeing people say even more extreme things than they wanted to
say without being seriously punished they're saying those things too.
Something good will probably come of all this but change is never easy or fun.
It's unlikely that we'll return to a culture that accepts outright racism.
Hopefully we won't continue to perpetuate a culture in which any attempt at
having a frank discussion involving a touchy subject is not chilled by a fear
of being name called as a BoogymanOfTheDay (e.g. racist, communist, etc).

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tzs
There's a lot of misunderstanding of what Cal State is proposing doing with
with students who need remedial help. They are NOT changing to give credit for
high school level courses, or lowering standards so that people not ready for
college can pass their courses.

What they are doing is simply changing the way they provide remedial help to
those who need it.

The current way: those students spend a year taking only remedial classes,
which are below college level and provide no college credit.

The new way: remedial help will be integrated with the regular college level
courses.

How exactly that is done is up to the individual campuses. Some might offer
slower sections, taking say two semesters to cover a subject instead of one.
Some might offer extra tutoring.

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dsfyu404ed
> job descriptions and society do not have the luxury of dumbing themselves
> down too much

Um, yes they do. It's called training. It used to be a thing back when HS
diplomas were like 2yr degrees were like 4yr degrees

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rkido
The purpose of higher education isn't to educate the mob. It's to protect
education -- the very notion of being educated -- _from_ the mob.

That so few schools recognize this doesn't mean "higher education is eroding";
higher education has always been a niche of a niche.

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tw1010
I bet the US will end up fine in the end though due to draining the brains of
other countries.

~~~
Dirlewanger
draining the brains of other countries...who then go right back to said
countries after they finish their education.

