
For people with an abusive partner, lockdown means captivity - jrwan
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/30/abusive-partner-lockdown-domestic-abuse-charities-women-home
======
OrangeMango
Where I am, the second paragraph of the executive order establishing the
"lockdown" explicitly states that victims of domestic violence are exempt and
are urged to leave for a safer location. It makes clear further in the order
that services provided are considered essential and should remain open and
that transportation is also essential and should remain available.

The news media simply does a terrible job of communicating what exactly these
"lockdowns" mean.

People that had a daily respite because their spouse left for work, or (as the
article mentions) the stress of the situation is causing alcoholism and
relapses into violence are people that need help and that the system in place
most likely doesn't have the capacity to handle. This is where additional
resources need to be made available.

~~~
lmkg
Which do you think matters more to a person in an abusive situation?

A. Paragraph two of some legal document somewhere

B. "If you leave the house, I'll call the cops and tell them you're breaking
quarantine, and then you'll go to jail and I'll be the only person who can get
you out."

I don't disagree with your last paragraph: There are other related issues and
maybe some of them are worse. But how this actually plays out in an abusive
situation is a fair bit removed from what the executive order says.

~~~
derefr
An accusation of domestic abuse would be taken far more seriously than an
accusation of "being outside without a reason", I would think. Especially if
you're a police officer, trained to respond to domestic violence calls, but
never really trained about the seriousness of epidemic management.

~~~
dragonwriter
> An accusation of domestic abuse would be taken far more seriously than an
> accusation of "being outside without a reason", I would think. Especially if
> you're a police officer, trained to respond to domestic violence calls, but
> never really trained about the seriousness of epidemic management.

Police not taking it seriously (in part, because it's viewed as wasted time
because the accuser will so often recant even when the accusation is true) is
an enduring problem with domestic violence, and police are very well trained
to enforce well-defined public orders like curfews (which shelter in place
orders are just a variety of) even if they aren't specifically trained for
pandemics.

~~~
derefr
There is a difference between taking seriously in the sense of "I am reporting
a crime, please actually investigate it" (which, yes, often doesn't cause a
crime to be investigated) and "I am afraid for my well-being and/or am being
held hostage in my own home; please send a police escort to rescue me from my
house; and then, optionally, please take me into protective custody, so that I
may be safe for a few days while filing a motion of a restraining order."

The police are _very_ well-trained to respond to the latter request. They
might not have the capacity for protective custody (some do, some don't), but
they'll at least do the "ensure you are escorted safely away from your home"
part 100% of the time. They'll usually be willing to take you to a relative's
home, if they live nearby; or, if not, to an emergency shelter for victims of
domestic violence, if your city has one. You'll usually be asked to file a
police report; you'll be given a case number, and the contact information of
someone in the police department you can reach out to if your abuser is
stalking you. It's sort of a "pre-restraining order"—the police can't legally
stop the other person from being where you are, but they'll usually be willing
to come and intercede if your abuser just shows up near you in public and
tries to intimidate you. (This helps the police as well on what is now your
open case, because they'll be witness to whatever happens between you and your
abuser.)

~~~
xabotage
> "I am afraid for my well-being and/or am being held hostage in my own home;
> please send a police escort to rescue me from my house; and then,
> optionally, please take me into protective custody, so that I may be safe
> for a few days while filing a motion of a restraining order."

These magic words likely will elicit the correct response from law
enforcement. But being able to formulate this phrase implies awareness on the
part of the victim that they are being abused, that something can be done
about it, and that they have the courage to do what it takes to escape. The
truth is that many victims are manipulated into believing there's no way out.
Even the ones who do pull the trigger experience a lot of pain upfront that
only becomes worth it later - they are still emotionally attached to their
abusers.

We should absolutely educate people as to the usefulness of police in abusive
scenarios (an abuser would have the victim think they are helpless), but
getting victims to recognize and say the magic words is more than half the
battle.

------
digitalsushi
We might also take some delicate thoughts that the absence of a lockdown does
not imply the absence of captivity. An abuser can leave for a workday, or
weeks at a time, and still have a captive.

But I very much understand the spirit here and now I am feeling sad thinking
about all those people out there that are possibly suffering even more right
now. I can hope that some of them find the strength to walk away after
experiencing this, but I know fully well that this isn't how it works.

It's crappy how I feel like I can change the world if I try, but I can't
change the house down the street.

And for all those other houses down the street that look happy, they could be
hiding the biggest captives of all.

What a heavy topic to unwind.

~~~
nabnob
>It's crappy how I feel like I can change the world if I try, but I can't
change the house down the street.

That's because it's way easier to think about fixing the world in a
theoretical way than it is to start making small realistic changes that
gradually turn into something bigger. As someone fighting domestic abuse
outside of the system, this work can get very messy but over time you develop
your understanding of what works and what doesn't work. It is possible to make
real progress and actually stop abusers.

------
Zenst
I'm Stuck in a flat above heroin/crack abusers, they have dealers in all the
time, abuse the victim card and keep getting away with it. Police, council....
all just victimhood them and dispite over years and years of having hard
evidence, they just ignore it.

Equally the partner of the women had a business, working and she got him
hooked on the stuff, she's abusive, killing him and nobody over the years
seems to care as she is for want of a better word - classic dark triad case
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_triad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_triad)

I've suffered abuse, homophobic abuse and as I'm not gay, it has been ignored.
Even malicious gossip about me being a peado, again all ignored by the powers
that be and I've done all the right things, tried so many times and been
ignored.

Since lockdown they have guests all the time, dealers, really nasty people and
yet, i'm still ignored.

Housing association in question even gone out their way to protect them and
she has driven so many people out of their homes due to her abuse and still is
allowed to get away with it as she excels at playing the victim, lies and I
could list endless examples, it just frustrates me how these people keep on
being allowed to carry on.

So yes, very mindful of abuse, sadly the system seems to excel at enabling
them.

Oh as for police, even had instances of them not only doing nothing, but
informing the dealers who informed upon them. Like passing on statements to
her so she can show the dealers she didn't inform upon them and with that,
lets them back in to the detrement of those who stood up.

So nobody dares do anything as they have lost faith in the police and all
support.

I'm now at stage that I need a good investigative reporter as I have
recordings and other proofs as the police have failed me so many times that
I've lost faith in them completly. As I have all support systems.

I have aspergers and have serious PTSD due to years of this abuse and need
help getting the truth out there.

Sorry if this not best place to talk about this, but I've tried and tried all
the right avenues and only to be failed.

Also sorry that I can't bestow all the details as it is so painful and
triggers my PTSD but I'll try.

~~~
john_moscow
>So nobody dares do anything as they have lost faith in the police and all
support. >I have aspergers and have serious PTSD due to years of this abuse
and need help getting the truth out there.

Here's one uncomfortable fact about our society that most people sort of feel,
but don't usually express in words. Despite what people say, nobody gives a
damn about others' problems. People will tell you all kinds of kind and
supportive words, because it makes _them_ feel good about _themselves_ being
so kind. Nobody will go an extra mile and risk being attacked/sued/defamed,
unless the problem starts seriously affecting _them_. Please do yourself a
favor and put together what other people said and what they have done so far,
and you will find this as the most plausible model.

If you truly have Aspergers, think of this purely logically. How much
time/effort have you put into getting the truth out there? What if you put the
same effort towards simply moving elsewhere? Make sure you understand what
neighborhoods/apartment types will have lower probability of the same problem.
Also think of renting a detached house in the middle of nowhere and working
remotely. It could cost comparably to a downtown condo, but you will get
priceless peace and quiet.

It is sad, but there is no "getting truth out there" option. There is an
option of fighting the windmills, hearing kind words from everyone, while
still stuck in a lifestyle you hate. Or there's an option of being selfish,
setting a goal that will help you and just you, and allocating every resource
you have towards achieving this goal.

~~~
Zenst
I have thought this out way more over the years and trust me - the only way
forward would be public humiliation from somebody that would traction and with
that.

I need a reporter who will listen and be listened too.

I have 2 years worth of recordings and with that, many examples of police
ineptness, abuse.... the lot and nobody takes me seriously.

EVen played audio of her dealing, threateneing...and short version, they did
nothing. Also many corrupt police, shocking but you do find out the hard way
and so many inept police, shocking again, well less so in todays over-woke
climate and sadly nothing constructive happens.

However this whole coronavirus, well, sad when that is doing more than I could
to highlight the issues and more so, makes it harder for them to get the
drugs, so I'm taking solice and great comfort in their suffering currently,
sad I know but if you know all I've had to endure, it's enabled me to cope
more in talking about this and trying again.

Heck, even dug out police home and private numbers and lets just say, they are
useless, but hey, I feel better for it. Share the stress :).

~~~
john_moscow
The reporters care about stories that could bring a lot of attention, and
hence advertisement. It's their bread and butter and unless they do so, they
will be stuck with "utterly shite art remuneration".

In a world that accepts the whole neighborhoods crawling with mentally ill
homeless drug addicts (google Downtown Vancouver East Side, or San Francisco
Homeless) covering this would hardly be worth the reporter's time, sorry.
Seriously, imagine how an article want would look like, and try to find
anything similar published recently. Then divide your search results by the
estimated number of crack dens in the areas you searched, and you'll find out
that your chances of winning a lottery could be higher.

------
duxup
I feel like this is a valid concern, but really when it comes to abusive
relationships ... a lockdown isn't the problem / aggravating circumstance
/etc.

I worked with kids who came from abusive / were in abusive families. The
volume of abused partners who willingly stayed with the abuser was
astonishingly high. They would even follow an abuser from one town to the
next, even with services and options to not do so available.

That's not to blame them, and circumstances make things very hard (especially
if you're poor, have kids, or both). But it is the simple reality that the
abused partner's willingness to leave and stick to that decision was the real
trigger for any positive change, and not the circumstances of their life. It
is not an easy decision or easy thing to do, but there was just not getting
around that it was the key too.

Obviously you can't just throw that at someone being abused because
recrimination is of zero help / won't make things better.

Either way in a lockdown, or out of one, the victims are often just as
"locked" in psychologically.

~~~
jasondclinton
This is the most HN comment I've seen in a week. You tried not to blame the
victim and acknowledge poverty is the trap but then came off as doing that in
the context of personal responsibility shaming. Poverty or the fear of poverty
is the real decision maker here; the math is as unforgiving as orbital
mechanics.

And please don't reply, "But there are programs!" Governments and NGOs
convince voters and donors that they are doing something by creating programs
for domestic violence and then make those programs so difficult to enroll in
that they spend half of their funding creating labrythine beurocracy. Anyone
already at their mental capacity with abuse struggles even starting these
processes.

~~~
carapace
To me it seems like you're falling into the trap of thinking that poverty
somehow diminishes the agency and responsibility of the person.

~~~
jasondclinton
Poverty does two things to us: limits our degrees of freedom (available
choices) and diminishes our decision-making capacity (a famine/crisis
response[1]). In extreme cases, poverty leads to sleep deprivation in which we
cannot make even basic rational decisions.

[1]
[https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/20518805-scarcity](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/20518805-scarcity)

~~~
carapace
I've been poor most of my life. I don't need to read a book to know that it
sucks. I would say that wealth _enhances_ life, not that poverty _necessarily_
diminishes it.

The OP's point stands: most people who choose to stay with their abuser are
not starving and sleep-deprived to the point of being unable to even have a
choice, eh? _There 's something else going on._ (Are there no wealthy people
who fail to leave abusers?)

Anyhow, the question you raise in a sib comment is more important: how can we
help victims of abuse choose (and succeed) to leave their abusers?

~~~
jasondclinton
Thanks for sharing your perspective. As it happens, I also grew up poor. I
found the book extremely interesting so I wouldn't discount it just because
you had that experience.

~~~
carapace
Cheers! It looks pretty interesting.

Just to be really clear, I'm not trying to say that poverty makes things
harder, or course it does. Really all I want to point out is that even in the
worst circumstances we still have the power to choose how we respond or react
to them. But again, it's possible that circumstances are so bad that it
becomes really difficult to make good decisions. I'm not trying to blame
people for their circumstances, or bad fortune, or even their bad decisions
(we all make mistakes.) I'm not really trying to _blame_ anyone for anything.
I believe that people are generally doing the best they can with what they've
got.

------
sanid
It's known that abuse cases tend to spike around Christmas and new year as
people tend to spend a lot of time home together with their abusive partners.
That's during a rather merry time. With lockdowns in place and the stress
people are dealing with currently not only will it get worse for current
victims we will have more victims of abuse in the months coming. Governments
should not only be concerned will the economic consequences this pandemic has
caused but the social and mental health problems it is causing currently.

------
eric_b
I'm glad there's starting to be some press about different groups for whom the
shutdown has outsized negative impacts.

Another such "forgotten" group is Alcoholics Anonymous. Their meetings are
mostly canceled, and for a lot of those folks those meetings are what keeps
them on the wagon.

~~~
Insanity
I think you could replace those with online meetups though?

------
guscost
Also children with abusive parents. Normally one of the factors that can limit
abuse is that a teacher or school employee might notice an injury. Some
schools are trying their best with "remote visual inspections" (I wish I was
making this up) but it's surely not as effective.

And a shocking number of people are trying to rationalize this tragedy as "not
that bad", wow.

------
mymythisisthis
If you suspect one of your neighbors is being abused, call the police and
report it. Don't wait, don't hesitate. Some people call the police because
McDonald's screwed up their order. Call the police.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
>If you suspect one of your neighbors is being abused, call the police and
report it. Don't wait, don't hesitate.

Talk to your neighbors before you call the cops on them!!!!

If you see someone get physically abused then sure, you're witnessing a crime
in progress, call the cops. If you're not then don't. It's wildly
inappropriate to call the cops on a hunch.

If you think a neighbor is being abused but are not sure then just be their
friend and communicate with them (you're neighbors, it's reasonable for you to
have each other's phone numbers and email addresses) until you can discern
whether or not you are correct. Cops are good at arresting people. They are
not good at mediating. If they get called to a DV situation where they can't
arrest someone they have a lot of potential to make things worse.

~~~
NateEag
> If you think a neighbor is being abused but are not sure then just be their
> friend and communicate with them (you're neighbors, it's reasonable for you
> to have each other's phone numbers and email addresses) until you can
> discern whether or not you are correct.

This "wait and see" approach gets people killed.

Personally, I'd far rather be investigated for something I didn't do than have
someone else die because a third party didn't act on their suspicions.

Hunches can be wrong, but they come from somewhere, and they're often right.

Furthermore, abusers are good at getting their victims to never tell anyone
about what happens, and often at hiding or destroying evidence, too.

------
maerF0x0
In addition, sadly there are nearly 0 shelters for men.

[https://nypost.com/2017/10/29/these-shelters-help-male-
victi...](https://nypost.com/2017/10/29/these-shelters-help-male-victims-of-
domestic-violence/)

~~~
rodolphoarruda
Good point. It reminds us that it's not only physical violence that counts.
Sometimes psychological violence (harassment, blackmailing etc.) is even
worse, especially when kids are put in the mix.

~~~
champagneben
I'm sure physical violence happens against men as well. Many would never
retaliate or really physically defend themselves against a woman. And you can
be very vulnerable when you sleep or look away.

------
rogerdickey
For _everyone, lockdown means_ relative captivity.

------
brenden2
Or if you just don't like your roommate, but can't afford to live on your own
or move out.

~~~
JonAtkinson
That is a pretty flippant comparison.

I’m the trustee of a regional women’s shelter; we run a small building of 8
apartments which we offer to women and children as short-medium term refuges
at no cost.

The people who arrive with us are experiencing trauma past breaking point
(often abuse is normalised and needs to be significantly escalated until
someone is willing to take flight), with symptoms of PTSD, depression, and
often significant physical injuries. Children absorb this abuse in a similar
manner, without any means to process the trauma.

Organisations like our face an extremely uncertain future; while the need for
what we do remains, and probably increases, many women are unable to move or
scared to due to the government advice on travel. This is against the backdrop
of being unable to procure supplies; we provide our residents with everything
from food to nappies, all donated or bought from cash donations.

I appreciate that living with a difficult roommate is a testing circumstance.
But domestic abuse is truly a different level of horror.

~~~
buzzkillington
When do you think there will be shelters for the victims of domestic abuse
from women?

I had a a friend bullied to suicide by their mother but there was just no
support for someone who wasn't physically abused by a man in the 00s.

~~~
JonAtkinson
There are. Awareness is growing and all organisations which are serious will
have a plan in place and facilities available.

Should someone present at almost any shelter now their case will be assessed
on whether violence occurred rather than gender.

My organisation is in the UK, so I can’t speak for elsewhere.

I’m sorry to hear about your friend, and for your loss. DV is truly horrible
in all circumstances, and the effects ripple through many people.

~~~
buzzkillington
>Should someone present at almost any shelter now their case will be assessed
on whether violence occurred rather than gender.

Domestic abuse does not begin and end with violence.

My friend was never physically hurt, yet he was still tortured enough to kill
himself.

~~~
ceejayoz
Verbal/emotional abuse is still a form of violence.

[https://www.thehotline.org/is-this-abuse/abuse-
defined/](https://www.thehotline.org/is-this-abuse/abuse-defined/)

> Domestic violence includes behaviors that physically harm, arouse fear,
> prevent a partner from doing what they wish or force them to behave in ways
> they do not want. It includes the use of physical and sexual violence,
> threats and intimidation, emotional abuse and economic deprivation.

------
pvaldes
I think that the situation can have more positive than negative effects in
this sense.

A major problem with abused people is that they assume that their current life
is more predictable (comforting) than the other options (being jobless, poor
and alone and having a low self-estimate), so they relativize and hide the
situation because they fear more the uncertainty. Maybe they will solve the
problem temporarily trying to avoid him/her for some hours.

The lockdown can be a real eye-opener in this sense (and safety is at a fake
cough of distance).

Moreover, to hide the problem from their neighbors would be almost impossible.
Everybody will be at home 24h/7days a week for months, including men and women
that would be otherwise working in the city all day, unaware of the situation
for years.

A wife alone at home all day could choose avoid getting in trouble herself and
shut their mouth about what happens in the next door just by fear. Men will be
much less tolerant with this situation, specially when in front of their wifes
and children. Will be pushed to do something about it to restore their role
as, well... men.

And of course, being cynical, there is a small possibility that the
coronavirus just fix the bug for once and for good, or will send the abuser
alone to an hospital with pneumonia. A place where will be unable to hide
their body marks to medical staff, will find psychological support and enter
in a program for people abused and will have some extra time to rethink about
their toxic relationship and heal in every aspect

~~~
kevintb
Oh god, you clearly don’t have much knowledge of abusive partners, because you
couldn’t be more wrong.

~~~
pvaldes
Maybe we could discuss the ideas instead to discuss my knowledge and just say
I am wrong. We both could learn something.

Play the neiborghs a role denouncing abusive situations? I think that yes, in
my experience they sometimes do it. Therefore more people at home could be
traslated easily to more videos, more audios, and more denounces. Am I wrong?

Do the victims choose to ignore that they are being abused? IMHO Yes, they do,
for years until the situation can't be hiddden anymore or something happens
and the victim suddenly awake.

If the victim does not choose to change and break with their former life,
there is not a lot of things that other people can do. In my experience
victims lie, systematically, constantly, about the real situation and they
actively try to protect their abuser.

Your experience can be different, of course.

------
weggooi
Estimates are that, if governments do nothing to combat Covid 19, then the
life expectancy of the whole population will be reduced by a mere 20 days.[1]

Sacrificing 4 months of exercise, meaningful conversation, sex and other basic
human needs is really not worth it.

[1] For example 13.26 million QALYs divided by the US population
[https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/another-covid-cost-
ben...](https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/another-covid-cost-benefit-
analysis/)

~~~
faizshah
The euphemism of “Life expectancy of the whole population” is disguising that
you’re saying 200k-1.7 million deaths is worth you not having to stay home for
4 months. This isn’t even factoring in the millions who will suffer severe
cases needing hospitalization and suffering permanent lung damage but won’t
die.

Secondly, the article you linked has several arguments against your own
conclusion. For example, that many will suffer permanent lung damage, a
significant multiple of the number of people who will die will be seriously
ill and need hospitalization, and that this cost-benefit analysis overvalues
the lives of the young over the old.

~~~
weggooi
There are alternatives to locking the whole population down: For example the
Imperial College study predicts less deaths if only the 70+ population is
locked down.

[https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-
college/medicine/s...](https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-
college/medicine/sph/ide/gida-fellowships/Imperial-College-COVID19-NPI-
modelling-16-03-2020.pdf)

Also look at page 10: If you lockdown for only 5 months, the virus just comes
back and still kills 1 in 500 people.

If you want to minimize the deaths, the study suggests that you need 400+ days
of lockdowns over a 2 year period.

