
Electric scooters are illegal in the UK because of 1835 law - lnguyen
https://www.businessinsider.com/electric-scooters-illegal-1835-highways-act-2018-8
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hocuspocus
I'm all for anything that can reduce the number of cars in European cities.

That said, whether they're explicitly forbidden in your country, or in a legal
grey area, I think anyone riding these scooters is asking for trouble. If you
do cause an accident, your personal liability insurance _will not_ cover
anything. Even if you aren't at fault, you are on a vehicle that has no legal
category, no insurance, and is not supposed to be used on public roads. Given
that some models go up to 50 km/h, this kind of risk sounds pretty insane.

We definitely need legislators to work things out before SV startups put them
in the hands of unaware people.

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jdminhbg
Which part of this isn't applicable to bicycles as well?

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hocuspocus
All of them?

Bicycles belong in a category that is properly defined by the law. Riding a
bicycle is explicitly covered by your personal liability insurance. 45 km/h
e-bikes have their own special category and need license, plate, registration
and specific insurance.

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tonyedgecombe
_personal liability insurance_

How many people do you think have personal liability insurance in Europe?

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hocuspocus
>90% in my country. I wouldn't be able to rent an apartment without one. But
that is beyond the point.

If you use a bike on public roads and want to be insured, you can. A scooter,
your insurer will tell you they cannot do anything.

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nanis
If it takes a nineteenth century law to keep pedestrians safe from vehicles
whose drivers obey neither convention nor signals of all kinds, so be it.

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larkeith
This really isn't how they should be regulated, though - while I have yet to
form an opinion on electric scooters, their impact should be evaluated and
specific legislation enacted for them, rather than banning them wholesale with
no consideration thanks to legal happenstance. That a law enacted nearly 200
years ago is being applied to vehicles significantly out of scope or intention
of the original intent strikes me as a legislative failure, regardless of the
merits or dangers of scooters on sidewalks.

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checkyoursudo
The reality is that the UK (and the US and anywhere else with a long tradition
of relatively continuous and stable government) has lots of laws that are
currently enforced that are dozens to hundreds of years old. In common law
countries, we have laws that we can trace back many hundreds of years.

If you think a law is outmoded or no longer reflects society's values, then
you have recourse: get it repealed or amended. Or flaunt the law and take your
chances. People do that all the time, with greater or lesser degrees of
success.

Societies ruled by law should not ignore old laws _just_ because we think the
original authors could not have possibly basic good judgments like, say,
pedestrians should be safe on pedestrian thoroughfares.

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lenkite
This 1835 law is utterly sensible. Electric scooters on pedestrian paths ? No,
just no. The only modes of transportation on pedestrian paths should be
powered by your feet. We can allow powered wheelchairs for the disabled but
that should be the upper limit. Why are pedestrians always the one to get the
shaft in road 'innovation' ?

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56chan4
You have an issue with speed and size of someone on the footpaths, I could run
fast and cause more problems than someone on a scooter on the path. Besides
its not like Scooters will ever be that popular because people love
transporting stuff around in their cars and they need/expect a certain level
of protection from the elements which scooters, bikes and motorbikes will
never exceed. Its a bit of a storm in a teacup which is why the UK police are
not prosecuting electric scooter users at the moment.

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lenkite
Jogging on footpaths while respecting right of way is completely different
from running helker-skelter, bumping and knocking people down. I hope we
really don't need to debate the difference between the two.

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acct1771
The concept of codified law unfortunately does require that debate.

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tomxor
This is also the case for bicycles, however it's purpose is more about
dissuading cyclists who don't consider themselves guests on the pavement:

> The introduction of the fixed penalty is not aimed at responsible cyclists
> who sometimes feel obliged to use the pavement out of fear of traffic and
> who show consideration to other pavement users when doing so. Chief police
> officers, who are responsible for enforcement, acknowledge that many
> cyclists, particularly children and young people, are afraid to cycle on the
> road, sensitivity and careful use of police discretion is required.

Pavements are for people, if you want to ride on it that is fine, but you have
no right of way over people on foot.

The carriage law should not be removed outright but amended similarly while
making it clear it's not ok to make pavements dangerous for pedestrians.

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MatthewWilkes
I had no idea that electric scooters were a fad elsewhere, but the tone of
this article makes me glad they aren't in the UK. The assumption seems to be
that they'd be on the footpath, which just sounds crazy to me. As for the
roads, I thought the pedelec compromise of not allowing throttle controls was
quite sensible.

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fyfy18
They are pretty popular in London for the last mile commute - it’s faster than
a bus, and easier to transport on trains and store than a bike.

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jdietrich
A Brompton bicycle weighs less than most electric scooters and isn't much more
bulky. They're not cheap, but they're built to last and enormously popular
amongst commuters. They now offer an electrically-assisted option, if that's
your bag.

[https://www.brompton.com/the-bike](https://www.brompton.com/the-bike)

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zhte415
From the article

> If any person shall wilfully ride upon any footpath or causeway by the side
> of any road made or set apart for the use or accommodation of foot
> passengers; or shall wilfully lead or drive any horse, ass, sheep, mule,
> swine, or cattle or carriage of any description, or any truck or sledge,
> upon any such footpath or causeway; or shall tether any horse, ass, mule,
> swine, or cattle, on any highway, so as to suffer or permit the tethered
> animal to be thereon.

It seems like a step forward was made almost two centuries ago. Let's not take
a step back.

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scarejunba
Anecdotally, I’ve noticed a bunch of people using “scary”, “dangerous”,
“hazard”, etc. a lot more recently. I wonder if there’s some sort of
correlation with our helicopter parent upbringing and a desire for an entirely
safe environment.

Personally, there’s a risk level that I’m content with living with and
scooters on the pavement are beneath that.

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neverminder
Exactly this. Most of those scooters I've seen don't travel faster than a
running person, yet I don't see joggers being banned from sidewalks.

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dingaling
Joggers can be quite easily funnelled and blocked by other pavement users
refusing to yield. Less so for those riding on hard, mechanised devices.

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neverminder
This "hard, mechanised device" usually weighs around 10 kilos. So far I don't
see any evidence from countries where electric scooters are legal that they've
become any more of a problem than conventional means of transportation.

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kevin_thibedeau
This isn't unique to the UK. Small electric vehicles fall under motor vehicle
regulations in New York state which also bans them from sidewalks. E-bikes,
electric scooters, hoverboards, they're all supposed to be registered with the
DMV for use on public roads.

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Nasrudith
Am I missing something with the UK definitions or are streets and pavement
(sidewalk in US parlance) a complete apples and oranges comparison? Bicycling
on the street is perfectly valid and sensible - especially since those are
usually lower speed and congested areas in the first place. Replacing cars
with bicycles eases congestion in dense cities. Replacing cars with bicycles
on a highway would cause problems.

Similarly sidewalks are narrow and meant for pedestrian capable ranges of
motion and speeds. I lean towards 'legalize electric scooters on the streets
keep them the off the pavement unless the operator is disabled'.

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Springtime
They should be glad their spaces aren't littered with these imported, rentable
scooters, it's already happened with bicycles in various cities around the
world and it's a mess.

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mpax
I think laws should come with expire dates by default.

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GoToRO
Ban cars in congested areas. Problem solved.

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cimmanom
As a pedestrian walking on already crowded sidewalks, I loathe sharing the
sidewalk with scooters - even entirely people-powered ones.

That extra speed makes them scary and dangerous, and the people riding them
never seem to be considerate of the people they’re sharing the sidewalk with.
Not quite as bad as bicycles on the sidewalk, but approaching the same
category.

IMO we should be repurposing roads not aggressively to make room for cyclists
and other modes of transportation like scooters.

If scooters are too slow to be safe in the bike lane, make an additional
scooter lane and remove some free automobile storage on public property -
which is not in fact a birthright.

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dominotw
I ride my electric unicycle at ~10 miles/hr on sidewalks. Slightly faster than
walking but way slower than a bike. I can stop instantly( unlike one wheels)
an slow down to less than walking speed if needed. I don't see why I can't
share the sidewalk with pedestrians.

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c22
I'm a pretty fast walker and I go about 3.5-3.8mph, so you are going ~3 times
faster than me.

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dominotw
oh yea you are right. sorry I misstated. 10 mph is the top speed on my segway
one s1 and I never hit top speed on the sidewalk. So maybe around 6-7 mph
which is twice the walking speed, ppl running for a workout overtake me.

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neilwilson
It's illegal in the uk because here your desire for profit and your customers
lack of regard for other people doesn't as yet override those other people's
right to walk down the pavement unmolested. We have cycle lanes and powered
push bikes. If the output is less than 250w and can do no more 15mph then they
can be used on the roads in cycle lanes without a licence or road tax.

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Lio
I completely agree with you. I’ll just point out that in the UK we don’t have
road tax and haven’t had since it was abolished in 1937.

Instead we have Vehicle Excise Duty, VED, which is a tax on emissions. Which
is why electric vehicles pay no VED.

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Waterluvian
I really really want to experiment with that. Can I hook a gas generator to my
bike? During the ride or only before?

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youngbullind
You are a gas generator. I'd hope it's not so voluminous or noxious that you
require regulation

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consto
Good

