
Why Americans don't take sick days - _of
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-37353742
======
wlesieutre
I get five sick days a year. Toward the end of last winter I got sick several
times and used four of them.

So for the rest of the year, say my insomnia shows up and I've been awake
since 8 AM the previous day, I go to work anyway. I get maybe two hours of
work done all day, but I sit at my desk and that's apparently what's
important. That's only happened once this year, but it was Monday this week so
it's fresh in my mind.

It's stupid. But I've got one sick day left and I might need it worse come flu
season.

There are plenty of things I like about my job, but our time off policy is not
among them... In the tech industry I'm guessing this is less common because
it's not easy to hire good programmers. In other industries, I doubt it's an
unusual experience.

~~~
jgeerts
> I sit at my desk and that's apparently what's important.

After everything it indeed sometimes feels like it comes down to this. They
want to see you physically sitting at your desk for at least 8 full hours,
that's the only 'measurement' in productivity that most companies seem to care
about.

~~~
bdamm
What is the consequence of the OP not showing up at work? Does he lose paid
days? Does he get fired? How does his company track sick days? At every
company I've worked for there's usually a formal sick day arrangement, but
often sick days are less formal; you email or call your boss and tell them
you're sick and they tell you to stay home. Rarely does the boss actually
record that event. This is different company to company but I'm betting a lot
of people put more on themselves about staying home than they should.

~~~
wlesieutre
It's fairly formalized here. I work at an architectural lighting manufacturer,
and the construction industry is very phone-based. I'm sure most electrical
contractors have smartphones by now, but most of the questions from the field
still come in as phone calls. So we're expected to keep good coverage of the
phones, and if I'm not around then everyone needs to know to direct technical
calls to someone else's desk.

Sick days do get logged, and if I really need more time off I can start
burning vacation days. Given the choice, I'd rather spend a shitty sleep
deprived unproductive day at work.

Eventually goes up to 10 sick days, but I don't remember when the threshold
is. Frankly it's a strange thing to base on seniority, as if newer employees
somehow get sick less?

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JoelBennett
Pretty easy to sum this up: people don't take sick days because:

\- They aren't given that many

\- Medical expenses are HUGE

\- There's societal pressure to not take them

\- It's easier to fall behind in work (and get fired if you do)

I really should count my blessings - I rarely feel sick enough to take a sick
day - maybe at most once a year. I understand that other people aren't like
that, and I'm fine with that. As long as everyone is doing their part, and
we're all pulling together, it's all good.

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wnevets
Probably the same reason they vote against their own interest all the time.
We're all convinced we'll be super rich soon.

~~~
monkmartinez
I remember reading something about this... do you have a link?

~~~
positr0n
It's a common trope usually referring to poor/middle class people that vote
Republican because they believe they will be well-off one day and benefit from
lower taxes and less welfare.

It comes from a quote attributed to John Steinbeck: _Socialism never took root
in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat,
but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires._

------
fma
My company has unlimited sick days. I've used none in my 2.5 years here. It's
not that I don't get sick, but somehow I get sick while on vacation. Yep
that's fun.

I see the doctor for checkups, I had many appointments to accompany my wife to
the OBGYN, and appointments for my new baby...I don't take time off for those.

If I'm feeling under the weather I stay home and do a bit of work. If I had
actual sick days I would be more inclined to take an entire day off,
especially if towards the end of the year.

When I worked for the govt I took mental days...day where it would be
pointless to come to the office because I'm not motivated and would be
unproductive. After a day off I'm good to go. Counted that as sick.

~~~
mattmanser
In much of the EU, if you get sick on holiday, you can claim your holiday
back:

[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/6190826/...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/6190826/Claim-
back-holidays-lost-to-sickness-says-European-Court-of-Justice.html)

~~~
magiconair
Yes, because your holidays are for recreation not for recuperation. When
you're sick, you're sick. Go home, get rest, forget about work. Makes happier
and more productive employees since you treat them as human beings.

------
alwaysdoit
Please stay home if you're sick. The productivity loss due to you not coming
in < the productivity loss due to you coming in and infecting your coworkers.

~~~
zeveb
If my employer won't give me sick days, I'm not going to burn vacation unless
I really, _really_ don't feel like coming in.

~~~
hkmurakami
Yup, employers often fail to see how they are incentivizing contagion in their
offices by having the sick day policies they do.

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rayiner
Is it common for programmers to have a fixed number of "sick days?"

The only time I ever had to keep track of sick days and vacation days is when
I worked for the government and it was awful. There is no reason to do that to
white collar workers.

~~~
sidlls
There are two common schemes: one that combines vacation and sick leave in
"Paid Time Off" ("PTO") banks and one that tracks them separately. It is
almost uniformly the case for programmers outside the Bay Area to work for
companies with one or the other (usually the former).

This is one reason why I think it's funny when developers mistakenly think of
their managers and higher as "colleagues." Software developers are much closer
to blue collar workers than white collar workers from a social status
perspective.

~~~
paulddraper
"White collar" doesn't have to do with management or social status.

White collar work is in an office setting. Blue collar work is manual labor.

Telemarketers are white collar. Construction managers are blue collar.

~~~
bryanlarsen
White collar means a job that traditionally would require a suit and tie. Blue
collar means a uniform.

~~~
paulddraper
That is the origin of the word.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collar_workers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collar_workers)

But so few jobs require suit and tie compared to 60 years ago, that the
definition has shifted to "office job" [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White-
collar_worker](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White-collar_worker).

~~~
bryanlarsen
Yup, which is why I used the word "traditionally".

~~~
paulddraper
Very traditionally.

------
mcv
I find the concept of limited sick days very odd. How can you possibly plan
your sickness? When you're sick, you're sick, and shouldn't be going to work.
Especially not when you've got something infectious that might make your co-
workers sick too.

I had no idea that my country (Netherland) had the most generous law in this
regard. The Dutch system sounds fairly obvious to me, and it works very well.
Healthy, happy workers don't stay at home sick. Of course there are people who
do abuse the system, but when people call in sick unusually often, it's
generally a sign of a deeper problem, like hating their job or not being
motivated to do it. And those are problems that need to be solved, not
ignored.

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smb06
I, like so many around me in the Bay Area, work at a startup. Sick days are
not even something that I can contemplate at an early stage startup.

~~~
BinaryIdiot
Yeah the last start-up I worked at we had "unlimited" time off. I took almost
a week off when I was sick once. The only time I've ever done that in my life
but since it was unlimited time and I felt so awful (even went to the
doctor's!) I thought I should finally use my generous benefit.

Let's just say a non-critical component I was working on was delayed by me
being sick and it was counted against me later on. I noped right the fuck out
of there as soon as I could.

Always be skeptical of the ones offering "unlimited" time off. Because it's
never unlimited, in my experience.

~~~
Someone1234
Unlimited time off and zero days time off are pretty much the same thing.

If they really wanted you to take time off they'd have a minimum, but
strangely few "unlimited" companies do, why is that? Most non-unlimited
companies give you a set amount that "expire" which essentially encourages you
to use them all (which is a GOOD thing).

PS - And no doubt there will be an anecdote below about the one company that
does have a minimum. My point is that that company is a unicorn, most
unlimited companies have no minimum and don't legitimately expect/want you to
take a lot of days.

~~~
joesmo
Couldn't agree more. I assume that somewhere in such contracts there is a
limit similar to how cell phone carriers' "unlimited" plan is always limited
or some clause with more generic language doing the same thing. Otherwise
what's to stop one from coming in the first day and taking a year off
afterwards? Can an employer in an at-will state fire an employee for taking
his vacation according to company policy? Or, someone could come in for the
first day, then start taking days off. At some point, I'm sure the employer
will fire them, but they still have to pay the employee for all those days
off.

More broadly, my question is this: Since clearly, you cannot have unlimited
vacation, what is the actual legal language in contracts at such companies
that creates the situation of "unlimited" vacation and what exactly is that
situation legally (since it's obviously not unlimited vacation)?

~~~
emmp
Yup I have "unlimited". It's "recommended" to take at least 2 weeks. Greater
than 4 weeks requires executive approval though!

------
paulddraper
Sick days are a terrible concept.

If I have a mild headache, can I take a sick day? What if it's November and I
haven't used any sick days? What if I'm nauseous when I wake up, but I'm fine
by lunch? Can I use sick days for psychological reasons? What if someone sees
me in public and thinks I don't look sick? Should I follow these rules, or can
I fake a phone cough as well as my co-workers?

Just give me an allotment for paid time off (and maybe unpaid time off), and
let me run my life/work balance.

~~~
flubert
>If I have a mild headache, can I take a sick day?

Yes.

>What if I'm nauseous when I wake up, but I'm fine by lunch?

Take half a sick day?

>Can I use sick days for psychological reasons?

Yes.

>What if someone sees me in public and thinks I don't look sick?

When taking a sick day, limit your public outings to the doctor / pharmacist.

~~~
paulddraper
A day at the beach is good for my claustrophobia.

~~~
6nf
We call those 'personal days' and they count as sick days.

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WallowingB_36
In my case, the employer had a great "take what you need" policy when it came
to sick leave. Vacation hours were earned, up to 6 weeks worth of hours a
year, but you could bank up to 8 weeks of hours. The only catch was "be
responsible".

As a father with two little kids who are always getting sick, this was great.
It was useable for their visits for shots and times when my wife could not
change her schedule easily (she does by appointment, in-home yoga/physical
therapy, can be tricky to bail on a person that needs your help on short
notice). I still had the ability to stay home if I got sick at some point
(which happens way more with kids).

This was the way for years. Until this year. Now it's a hard 5 weeks of
combined sick and vacation time.

With plans already set up for the year, plane tickets booked, for weddings,
vacation, etc. I'd burned it all up by June. So here I am with 3 days of
vacation/sick leave left. If I get sick now I'm going to work.

That, coupled with losing a non-trivial amount of vacation hours has caused
people to leave here in droves (with other mgmt issues coming in after the
sick/vacay policy change and doubling the insurance premium). I don't really
know what they were thinking as every other high tech company around us has a
much better sick/vacation policy, better insurance. They can afford it,
according to HR/accounting folks I talked to at happy hours. They're just
making the numbers look better for their own benefit.

So TL;DR (and having read this article, far too frequently) the real answer
management screws us out of it.

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bluedino
I don't have sick days, they just come out of our vacation days. Management
thinks if you give people "sick days" they will say they are sick when they
aren't just to get a day off.

I take sick days when I hurt my back and can't get out of bed but end up with
my phone and iPad in bed taking emails and attending meetings/calls

~~~
magiconair
Not trusting your employees is usually a bad sign.

------
BrandoElFollito
I get ~40 days of vacation and unlimited sick leave (France). I use all of the
vacation because of children but otherwise I would probably take half of them.
The fact that I have unlimited sick leave helps to never be sick, actually. I
guess that this is some kind of positive psychological feedback.

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Spooky23
This is one of the reasons I'm at my job despite the 15-20% salary penalty. 40
vacation days, 25 sick, 5 personal.

This year we did a week in June and nearly 3 weeks in October for vacation. :)

~~~
rak00n
40 vacation day is unimaginable in United States.

~~~
tarpherder
"Sick days" are unimaginable in Europe.

Oh gee let's not get pneumonia because I've got not more sick days left after
that flu from last week. _Ridiculous_ concept.

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dawnerd
One of the last companies I worked for I had all of 3 sick days per year. If I
used them now what if I get flu later in the year?

~~~
mtmail
Then you either have to use your vacation days or not get paid for any day not
in the office.

~~~
dawnerd
Thats why no one uses sick days though... Companies need to be more willing to
keep sick employees away unless they want the entire office getting sick and
killing productivity.

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oconnor0
Because I don't get any sick days and never have?

