
TRIZ, a problem-solving, analysis and forecasting tool - Tomte
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRIZ
======
lispytriz
Hi! I'm really happy to see TRIZ mentioned here on HN. I consider myself a
TRIZ geek and GS Altshuller, the "father of TRIZ" was one of my influences
growing up.

The 40 Principles are rarely used nowadays for solving complex problems. They
were originally used in the 1960s to catalog the solutions to "standard"
tradeoffs. Eventually, GSA and the rest of the TRIZ community realized that it
was more effective to analyze the root of the tradeoff, and solve the problem
there.

For those who are interested, I can list down some of the TRIZ tools worth
learning. My co-founder and I are applying for the S19 batch and have used
some of these tools to understand problems and clarify our ideas.

TRIZ tools are split into two (pre-1985, called Classical TRIZ, and post-1985,
called Modern TRIZ)

By general consensus, the most powerful tools in the Classical TRIZ toolkit
are: 1\. ARIZ 85c (the "crown jewel" of Classical TRIZ) 2\. Substance-Field
Analysis (akin to the contradiction matrix) 3\. 76 Inventive Standards (akin
to the 40 inventive principles)

In my opinion, the most powerful tools in the Modern TRIZ toolkit are: 1\.
Root Conflict Analysis (like Root Cause Analysis but designed to find
tradeoffs and roots of the tradeoffs; can also be used for software
architecture problems) 2\. Advanced Function Analysis (component-interaction
analysis with spacetime-correction)

There's a nice article of the overview of the chronological order of TRIZ tool
development written by Valeri Souchkov, designer of Root Conflict Analysis.

[https://triz-journal.com/a-brief-history-of-triz/](https://triz-
journal.com/a-brief-history-of-triz/)

------
thesumofall
The 40 TRIZ principles are actually really nice if you’re stuck with a problem
(no matter what domain). They might not always immediately lead you to the
solution but at the very least open up the solution space and get the creative
juices flowing. I got the 40 principles printed on index cards which makes it
easy to flip through them.

~~~
petra
>> no matter what the domain

How ? Triz is great for mechanical stuff, but how can you use triz for
software ? Or electronics?

~~~
thesumofall
Plenty of principles that directly work for those domains: taking things out,
abstracting stuff away, ... Others just need a little bit of creativity to
apply them

~~~
duncanawoods
TRIZ principles are things like Oxidants, Thermal expansion etc. which have
very practical meanings in a material context.

The amount of creativity you need to apply them to software means it's only a
form of provocation like Eno's oblique strategies or just flicking through a
dictionary. IMHO it's too far from what TRIZ aspires to be i.e. "reuse proven
methods drawn from research".

If we want a software version, we need to do software research but good news,
we have! We call them design patterns.

~~~
petra
Design patterns are great, but the problem they try to solve is "how to build
software well". but what about patterns for "how to use/design software to
solve problems"?

------
pavelevst
There is nice online course in russian to learn TRIZ:
[https://universarium.org/course/734](https://universarium.org/course/734)
[https://universarium.org/course/481](https://universarium.org/course/481)

------
danielvf
Back in the 1950's, my grandfather was an engineer with GE. He was interested
in the same question - how can we come up with new innovations on reliable
schedule? After honing in a process for his own work, and then internally
inside GE, he published it as book - "Professional Creativity".

It's not focused just on the spark of an idea, but covers the whole process
from the start of defining what you need to figure out, all the way through to
convincing others to use the solution.

I'm clearly biased, but it's a great book! I've used the processes in it all
my life and have found them incredibly useful. You can still find copies on
Amazon[1].

[1] [https://www.amazon.com/Professional-Creativity-von-
fange/dp/...](https://www.amazon.com/Professional-Creativity-von-
fange/dp/B0006D85IK/)

~~~
mdaniel
Since there are no reviews or summary on that page, can you offer a little
blurb on why you like it and what makes it's findings still relevant today?

------
rdtsc
There was a book for kids published in the Soviet Union which describes some
of these principles along with examples. I received it as a gift from my aunt
and it was one of my favorite books. It was called something like "And Then
Inventor Appears...". Anyone remember the book?

~~~
DanBC
This?

[https://www.amazon.co.uk/Suddenly-Inventor-Appeared-
Inventiv...](https://www.amazon.co.uk/Suddenly-Inventor-Appeared-Inventive-
Problem/dp/0964074028)

~~~
rdtsc
That is the one. Thank you!

One reviewer said it was disappointing as it is for high school students,
which was true, as far as I remember. It had cute cartoons and such in it. The
ideas were interesting but again I was in my early teens. As an adult not sure
if I'd have the same reaction to it. Certainly not after paying £30 for it.

I still remember some of the solution there, looked at the table of contents
and suddenly remembered a lot more, like metal pipe elbow with the steel balls
flying to it - use a magnet to build a protective layer of steel balls.
Another one is to use blocks of ice to slowly lower a heavy transformer to the
ground.

------
aasasd
From what I've seen, TRIZ fits nicely with UI design where "the best interface
is absence of interface."

Also, I've see it compared to Anatoly Levenchuk's "Systems Engineering
Thinking," which is apparently even more voodooish and hard to get the brain
around, but likewise proves useful for some people even in isolated pieces.

------
sigsergv
Actually TRIZ is quite popular among engineering companies but in many cases
employees are bounded by strict NDAs and cannot talk about this at all. There
are also a few tech consulting firms that use TRIZ as a tool of their trade.
In final reports TRIZ in almost never mentioned.

~~~
varjag
So what you say it's a conspiracy, rather than TRIZ being some hindsight BS
without practical advantage.

~~~
petra
Triz isn't a secret. It's easy to find about it if you seek to improve your
inventiveness.

You're comment assumes that the best methods always win, and become a standard
practice everywhere .

But maybe not always ? Maybe there are other factors, like schools, and
marketing , and luck ?

~~~
varjag
It's not secret for sure, and there is little evidence it ever worked. It's a
cargo cult, painting by numbers for engineers.

------
spython
I remember having TRIZ lessons at school, in fifth grade. It was the nineties
and schools were trying out new approaches. The most valuable thing I remember
was the idea that a problem should solve itself, within its system, without
introducing new elements.

------
sitkack
There was a company in the 90s that had an expert system trained on patents
that was like a CAD tool for solving problems/inventing. Does someone happen
to know the name?

~~~
varjag
Invention Machine in Minsk, Belarus.

~~~
sitkack
[http://archive.fortune.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive...](http://archive.fortune.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/1998/07/06/244796/index.htm)

Yep, that was the one.

------
agravier
Has anyone got more info on the "TRIZ for children" mentioned in the article?
I'd like to consider experimenting with it.

~~~
DanBC
Perhaps this? [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Suddenly-Inventor-Appeared-
Inventiv...](https://www.amazon.co.uk/Suddenly-Inventor-Appeared-Inventive-
Problem/dp/0964074028)

------
adriansky
What's the tl;dr?

~~~
Pamar
An old, Russian set of heuristics to think out of the box and try to solve
engineering design problems. Emphasis was on physycal design (i.e. not
software) despite some attempts to port the idea to other domains. While
popular in Russia (but then at the time it was difficult to understand how
much "popular/effective" it really was) it did not seem to get more traction
elsewhere.

~~~
baybal2
>it did not seem to get more traction elsewhere.

Samsung, Goldstar and other Korean cos are on the train. In Samsung, you
actually have to get a TRIZ certificate as a prerequisite for promotion above
a certain level in their engineering units.

~~~
vtail
Comment like yours is why I come to HN! Thank you - I was always interested in
TRIZ (I’m from Russia originally) but didn’t know it to be applied anywhere
outside of Russia. Out of curiosity, how did you learn about this?

Quick ddg’ing found this Forbes article on how Samsung uses TRIZ:
[https://www.forbes.com/sites/haydnshaughnessy/2013/03/07/why...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/haydnshaughnessy/2013/03/07/why-
is-samsung-such-an-innovative-company/#8a837fe2ad7e)

They also mentioned that Intel might be using it, too.

~~~
baybal2
I had few years of high school in Russia in a school with some degree of
engineering orientation.

About TRIZ in Samsung and Korean cos, I learned that from Samsung pals I met.
I've been all across Asia during the time when OEM electronics was booming:
Vietnam, Taiwan, China, Singapore, SK, you name it.

