
What happens if you turn off the traffic lights? - okket
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2017/sep/22/what-happens-if-you-turn-off-the-traffic-lights
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js2
I was in Miami after Hurricane Andrew. The traffic lights didn’t return for
weeks. It was rather amazing.

For less busy intersections, people just treated them as 4 way stops.

For busier intersections, say a 3 lane road with a 2 lane road crossing it,
there was sometimes a police officer to direct traffic. But sometimes not, and
that’s when it got interesting. What would often happen is that the different
traffic directions would try to take turns. One direction would get momentum
going until someone brave enough in the other direction would poke their car
out. Eventually the one direction would stop and the other direction would
start going.

But sometimes even that could not work. And this is when the volunteer traffic
director would appear. Someone driving with a passenger would have their
passenger get out and start directing traffic till their car got through and
maybe for a couple more minutes. Then that person would go get back in their
car and suddenly another volunteer would hop out of another car. Serial
volunteer traffic directing is one of my enduring memories of Miami from that
time.

~~~
drfuchs
In Florida (and every other state that I'm aware of), a dead traffic light is,
by law, to be treated as an all-way stop sign, so you're supposed to take
turns. Traffic lights are so incredibly reliable that many people seem unaware
of this fact, though, based on what I've observed. Perhaps the behavior you
describe is due to people intentionally disobeying the rules?

~~~
sathackr
Things get really interesting when there are intersections of multilane
highways. For example, an intersection of two 6-lane (3 each way) highways.

With 12 lanes of cars constantly approaching the intersection, that's a lot to
keep track of to figure out who goes first.

I saw this recently with Irma in FL. Mostly each set of lanes would start
moving roughly together once one person got brave enough to enter the
intersection. But it's very hard to adjust to.

I even found myself sometimes just going after stopping without fully checking
to see if I had the right-of-way or not.

~~~
phant0mas
In Iraklio, Greece, this is how you drive. We even have a name for it:
"Taliban driving". You assume you always have the right-of-way and you go. If
you don't, you will never get anywhere. Anyone says otherwise, you tell him to
go woohoo himself. And then people from Crete wonder why so many people die in
the road every year!

~~~
nasredin
"Taliban Driving"?

In New York we call it driving.

~~~
cm2012
New York's not that bad :)

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bspn
Where I grew up the city actively avoided traffic lights (too expensive!) and
opted for roundabouts wherever possible. While you would always encounter the
odd tentative person who screwed things up, generally they did a wonderful job
of regulating traffic flow. I contrast that with the US city I now live in
where it feels like you can't drive 200 feet without grinding to halt to wait
at yet another red light.

~~~
sliverstorm
Roundabouts are great and I am 100% in favor of their use, but they are not a
drop-in replacement for all traffic lights. Roundabouts are best IMO (not a
traffic engineer) for medium speed intersections with one or two lanes each
way, and low to medium traffic. High speeds, three or more lanes each way, and
high traffic volumes and you may do better with a traffic light.

And really, again not a traffic engineer, but I wonder if we could solve a lot
of these problems by simply eliminating left turns from feeder streets onto
arteries (or allowing them, but refusing to put in stop lights). They mess up
optimal light spacing and screw with timings. I'm not really aware of a good
reason to have them aside from neighborhood residents want them.

~~~
u801e
> I wonder if we could solve a lot of these problems by simply eliminating
> left turns from feeder streets onto arteries (or allowing them, but refusing
> to put in stop lights).

I think it would be better to disallow those types of left turns entirely and
direct traffic to make a U-turn at next available intersection. During busy
traffic times, it's often easier to to that compared to trying to make left.
Even during times it's not so busy, making a right turn with a subsequent
U-turn doesn't take that much longer.

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lg
> In the behavioural analysis, cyclists at the stop line glared at the signal,
> almost willing it to turn green.

This is amazing. I have never seen a cyclist waiting at a red light. I think
you need this kind of culture among cyclists before you can do something like
taking away lights. I have never been hit by a car, but I have twice been hit
by cyclists either ignoring stop lights when I had right of way, or ignoring
bike lane markers and veering into pedestrian walkways. This was in Boston and
NYC.

~~~
rocqua
Here in Groningen (the Netherlands) I'd say 90% of people wait at a traffic
light. Thing is, here cycling isn't something done by risk-takers. We have 80
year-olds cycling to the grocery store. That leads to a whole different group
mentality than looking at those willing to cycle in NYC. Heck, I'd be hesitant
to cycle in NYC.

~~~
asddddd
Another difference (most likely) is that it's quite common for US traffic
lights to switch only when they detect traffic on one of the roads, and this
rarely works with bicycles.

Nothing like sitting at a red for 2 minutes before realizing you have to
either run it or go on the sidewalk.

Maybe not so common on the East Coast, but 4-way stops are another can of
worms here. Most drivers expect you'll ignore the stop sign and will yield for
you. Some will refuse to go even after you're at a complete stop and got there
after them, at which point it's a standoff. Doing a rolling stop (Idaho stop -
illegal most places) ends up being the safest option most of the time.

~~~
rsfern
Usually you can trigger the electromagnetic sensor if you ride over the edge
of it; there's usually a visible seam in the pavement. You want to ride along
the edge of the loop.

~~~
lotsofpulp
I’ve never seen a detector like that. All the ones I’ve seen are mounted next
to the traffic light and aim down towards where a car would be waiting.

~~~
bspn
They're very common where I live, but to the best of my knowledge they're
weight-based so I'm not sure a cyclist would trigger it.

~~~
Mindless2112
Usually it's a loop of wire embedded in the pavement.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_loop#Vehicle_detecti...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_loop#Vehicle_detection)

~~~
c22
When I rode a moped I would never trigger these things till I started rolling
around with a large magnet zip tied to the bottom of my ride.

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fcbrooklyn
I was in lower manhattan during the huge northeast blackout 14(?) years ago. I
can confidently report that turning off all the traffic lights in the city did
not lead to improved traffic flow.

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arunc
We seldom obey any traffic signals/rules in India to the point that turning
them off doesn't make any difference

~~~
avip
Exactly what I had in mind reading the title. The answer to several "what
happens if we dump this system that should organize our society" question is -
look at India and you'll find out.

Apparently with enough gods anarchy works.

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paulsutter
The discovery in this article will seem quaint if you've ever crossed the
street in Southeast Asia (there's never a break in traffic, so you cross
anyway and the scooters flow around you,
[https://youtu.be/LlyOom0bwwY](https://youtu.be/LlyOom0bwwY))

> Behaviour was noticeably different. Most cyclists slowed down as they
> approached the intersection, and communicated to other cyclists and
> motorists using eyes, gestures, expressions, and voices. A lot more
> negotiation was taking place – but not without friction.

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barrkel
What happens is heavily dependent on relative traffic flows.

If it's sparse, not much bad happens, there might be more bad accidents from
people assuming right of way. If it's heavy in all directions, people going
straight or turning to whatever side of the road they're on will be reasonably
OK, while people turning across traffic will have a bad time. If it's heavy on
one road and light on another, the light road will be starved of exit
opportunities.

Turning off lights certainly isn't a panacea. Anyone who's lived in a city for
a few decades will remember junctions that got much better with the addition
of lights, and junctions that got worse. Some will recall bad accidents
(T-bones and the like) that prompted their installation. Etc.

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abalone
A consequence of this model that one perhaps might not anticipate... India is
this taken to the extreme. To assist in the "negotiation in motion," all the
vehicles use their horns constantly. Beep beep beep. It's not considered rude,
more like sonar. But it is a lot of noise pollution.

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grenoire
I take this road every day when I go to the University of Amsterdam's REC. It
was very odd at first and they worded it as if it was a short-lived
experiment, but then the lights never returned. To be fair, it's amazing.

It's important to keep in mind that one of the attached avenues is a "cyclist
priority" one, where the cars are essentially "guests" on the road. That
avenue doesn't get as much traffic as the other entries, so it was already
very suitable for such change.

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nether
Where I lived in a suburb of Los Angeles, we’d have inexplicable traffic light
outages. Well, some times it was due to rain. Invariably traffic would be
backed up for half a mile. It was terrible.

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buyx
As others have pointed out, solutions that work in Amsterdam, may not
generalise to other parts of the world.

Over the last 15 years, a combination of power cuts, shoddy maintenance and
cable theft have made traffic lights a lot less reliable in South Africa.

In some cities, like Johannesburg, drivers tend to follow the rules regarding
broken lights, and treat them as four-way stops. In others, such as Durban,
I’ve seen drivers barrelling through at high speed, hoping for the best.

Given the apparent wide geographic variation in dealing with this sort of
thing, perhaps a more appropriate title for the article should be “What
happens if you turn off the traffic lights in Amsterdam?”

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rjsw
I would like to see this normalized for the position on the political spectrum
of the government in power at the time of any test.

I felt that people's driving style changed immediatly when there was a change
of government in the UK.

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dahart
I read an article a few years ago about a town in the UK that did the same
thing and reported the same results, an increase in civility and a decrease in
accidents.

> Nearly 70% of all city centre trips are by bicycle, and more space is needed
> on the bike networks.

Yes, please! I want that where I live. It has been improving, but we have a
long way to go. I really hope more US cities end up with majority bike/ped
traffic rather than majority car traffic.

~~~
supergarfield
Geography may not be conductive to biking everywhere. While I mostly bike
around the city I live in, it's a very hilly place and even a short trip
requires an amount of effort that cannot be expected of most people.

As for pedestrian traffic, my experience with medium US cities is that they
are far too spread out for walking to be an option for most things. It's hard
to see how this could change without Americans abandoning their beloved
individual suburban homes with yards.

I think in most places public transportation is the only effective replacement
for cars.

~~~
dahart
All true! I agree, and hilly is a problem.

I could see cities easily changing though, by slowing the outward growth and
becoming more dense... and more bike-friendly in the center! ;)

The city I live in has been growing outward, but that's coming to an end now
that the expansion in the valley has hit the mountains on every side. The good
news is my downtown is getting more bike friendly every year, I'm just looking
forward to bikes being a majority. (Which might never actually happen since it
snows where I live...) :)

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CodeWriter23
Sure itself regulates, because people have a survival instinct. I can tell you
from experience however, after the massive wind storm of 2011 in LA, when
every signal was dark, it turned my 11 mile commute from downtown into a
90-minute affair, with an exhausting cognitive load because of the constant
concentration required. The commute ranges from 20-40 minutes (typically 30-35
at rush hour) when the signals are on.

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dwighttk
"...at one particular intersection" ...should be added to the headline.

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deevolution
We rely and place so much trust on the traffic system to do all of the
decision making work. We just follow its orders. But what if the system
experiences a failure unexpectedly? Accidents probably will occur, traffic
grinds to a halt. I have been in a situation on a highway intersection where
the light was stuck on red and it was a horrible experience. This is the
problem with a centralized traffic system. I have noticed that even I have
started to place too much trust in the walk signals while crossing streets. I
have caught myself failing to look both ways. While its nice that the traffic
system reduces some cognitive load, It's not 100% working in favor of our
safety. I think the US ought to conduct more experiments like this to see if
traffic accidents can be reduced. I'd like to see an experiment in NYC! So
many bike accidetns here.

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ovatsug25
I think a big part of this is momentum. When the majority of people were
excited about cars and saw them as newer and better than bicycles, you would
get treated like shit. See most US cities. When the majority of people begins
to understand that cars weren't the panacea they were expecting, then you
might get more respectful behavior like that in the Netherlands. Here in the
Dominican Republic being a pedestrian is "for the poor." Cars rush towards
you—and you either get out of the way or join the roadkill. So what happens if
you turn off the traffic lights? Depends whether people cared about them and
safety to begin with.

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ehnto
It obviously wouldn't work for all kinds of intersections or traffic types,
but it is great to hear that good natured human cooperation was the key to
this success.

Given a shared obstacle, people seem much more willing to coopetate and make
concessions for others and help others achieve their goals. I notice it when
the power goes out here and signals disappear. Even though it's 100% car
traffic and two lanes in either direction, people were still able to negotiate
with eachother to make it work, if only briefly.

I imagine years of conditioning for bicycle heavy and bicycle friendly
infrastructure was also a huge factor for the success in the article.

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mikhailfranco
This is the way of the future for flat cities in temperate climates where most
people can cycle. But Holland is an extreme case where disciplined drivers are
educated to respect cyclists. Don't expect this to work anywhere else, anytime
soon. Holland is the future, but it your backward community cannot adopt this
tactic without a long hard battle against the entrenched arrogance of the car
driving unintelligentsia.

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ajarmst
This isn't a unique experiment. I remember reading about a German city
(Drachten) doing it about a decade ago.
[http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/controlled-
chaos...](http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/controlled-chaos-
european-cities-do-away-with-traffic-signs-a-448747.html)

~~~
frankquist
There is certainly a German place also doing this which the article mentions
but Drachten is a Dutch city :)

~~~
ajarmst
Doh! Thanks. Should have Googled it.

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tedmc
Just went through traffic light outage due to Irma. Traffic was _not_
improved.

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Mulatto401
I want to say as a person who had no lights working due to Irma in Miami,
North Miami etc traffic WAS improved.

Instead of waiting 2 minutes or so as usual, I was on my way in about 45
seconds. Yes I had to be more aware but it was worth it.

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Tomminn
This would've been a great initiative if it started 15 years ago. At the
moment, I think changing traffic systems in ways that are less accessible for
self-driving cars is short-sighted.

~~~
flyingfences
A self-driving car that can't handle a missing stoplight isn't production-
ready.

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namidark
After several hurricanes - _you_ should treat them as 4 way stops, however a
large chunk of people just run through them (most recent example is from Irma)

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Pica_soO
It could be so easy- if everyone treated intersections as roundabouts..

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Froyoh
Imagine this in New York City...

