
I failed to prevent my kid from going to college - galfarragem
http://www.jamesaltucher.com/2017/08/failed-prevent-kid-going-college/
======
throwaway613834
> I’m not sure why this would be the case. I majored in Computer Science. But
> I didn’t get interested from class.

> I didn’t fall in love with reading until I was about 22. After college. I
> read and I wrote every day and I haven’t stopped since.

> Maybe it’s just me. But I have never learned about anything I wasn’t
> interested in.

> My first job: I was a computer programmer at HBO. I was so bad that they had
> to send me to REMEDIAL school

> My passionate interests have changed 30 times since I graduated college.

> (etc.)

"I" this, "I" that, "I" see, "I" don't see, "I" can, "I" can't, "I" foo, "I"
bar, "I" phone, "I" pad, "I" pod... therefore my daughter (and presumably
many, many others) clearly shouldn't go to college.

Does reading all this not bother anyone else?

Call me cynical, but one thing college teaches you is to avoid assuming most
people are like yourself. Another thing it teaches you is that if you want to
argue "everyone is doing it wrong", you should provide hard evidence for it.
It's extremely frustrating to see individuals trying so hard to generalize
from their own 1 sample of anecdata when civilization has come to the
conclusion that higher education is a valuable thing over the past 1,700+
years.

Edit: On the plus side, I have to say, though, props to him for being honest
about the "I". For every person that says "I think X is true" there are a
dozen other louder people who omit the first half of the sentence.

~~~
anotherbrownguy
>Call me cynical, but one thing college teaches you is to avoid assuming most
people are like yourself.

That's like the one thing that it doesn't teach you. Everyone is expected to
be interested in the same selection of things and learn the same things in the
same way or not get good grades.

~~~
throwaway613834
>> one thing college teaches you is to avoid assuming most people are like
yourself.

> That's like the one thing that it doesn't teach you.

Huh? You didn't get to know people who weren't like yourself?

~~~
mikulas_florek
Since the people there chose the same path as me, they were in fact more
similar to me (similar demographics, hobbies, ...).

~~~
throwaway613834
"Same path" as in... "K-12, then college"? By that standard, when you start
working, everyone has had the same path as you, too -- "education, then work".

And how can you even say "more similar" without specifying more similar _than
what_?

~~~
mikulas_florek
More similar than the most of other people I met/know. I studied CS. When I
started working, there are (compared to my CS studies) people from different
colleges, or without higher education at all, artists, HR, managers, ... They
are much more diverse than people from my college.

~~~
throwaway613834
You say "compared to my CS studies" to argue your point, then conclude with
"than people from my college"? Was there nobody but CS majors in your college?
Or did you just never take the opportunity to go meet them when there were
tons of them in your college?

------
michaelmcdonald
> Why spend it doing homework and learning nothing and getting in debt?

Wait...really? You think that everyone that goes to a four year higher
education institution learns nothing? I think I can see why you have a problem
with college...

~~~
tdb7893
In my experience only maybe half of people actually use much of what they
learned in college in their job. Many people don't end up in what their degree
was and also many jobs are learned primarily through job experience. If you
think about it most people learn more practical skills in the first year of
having a job than in 4 years of college. I think that when people spend such a
large chunk of their time and money on something they expect a little more
results and he is exaggerating because he is frustrated with it.

~~~
alistairSH
_...only maybe half of people actually use much of what they learned in
college in their job..._

And that's part of the problem with the current anti-college movement (for
lack of a better descriptor). Adherents tend to think college is an expensive
4-year job training program. But, it's not about job training. It's about
broadening your horizons, learning things you might not otherwise learn,
challenging your core beliefs about life and society.

If you enter college with the sole goal of exiting with a high-paying job, I
would argue you are doing it wrong. Instead, take some time to study things
you find interesting. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

~~~
tdb7893
It's hard to say it's about broadening horizons when it's a prerequisite to
most jobs. Also I've broadened my horizons significantly after college so it's
hard to justify paying 30k a year for that.

Edit: I think part of it is that college is a requirement for many things in
modern life whether it's good for you or not. I personally found it
constricting but leaving would've closed a lot of doors so I just ended up
staying but really resenting it

~~~
alistairSH
That an employer requires a degree does not imply that the purpose of a
university education is solely to facilitate employment. Many people disagree
with me, and I think that's part of the problem.

And the $30k/year is a problem. No argument from me on that. By most measures,
tuition has outpaced most other commonly measured consumer costs.

When I attended school, a good state college wasn't cheap, but my middle-class
family was still able to pay for it without borrowing money. I would be hard-
pressed to pay for a 4-year degree today without incurring significant debt or
dramatically changing my lifestyle.

------
wsc981
Personally I think college was a waste of time as well and my time would have
been better spent working at some company. I would probably have learned more
and wouldn't have had 21.000 EUR debt. I would also have earned more money.
And I also believe I would have been a better developer as well.

On the other hand, I also believe it's much more easy to get an software
engineering job without a degree compared to many other jobs. For most jobs, I
do think college or university is pretty much mandatory.

~~~
dagw
I thought college was a waste of time the first time around, and dropped out
after a year. The second time around, after having spent a few years working,
I not only saw much more value in the things I was learning, but understood
the relative values of the different courses on offer.

So in hindsight I'm really glad both that I didn't persevere and push through
the first time around and even more glad that I decided to eventually go back.

In fact, if I where king, I might require at least 12 month work experience
before allowing people to apply for university.

~~~
taylodl
This is precisely the path I took as well. When I went back to college I'd
lost the hubris and was well aware of what I didn't know. It was a much better
experience and I learned a lot.

------
oddlyaromatic
I did a BA and an MA in the arts. I don't work in the arts now, 10 years
later, but on a daily basis I see how that experience gave me tools and skills
I didn't have at the end of high school that help me succeed. Just in terms of
professionalism, communication skills, and being exposed to new ideas and
challenged about how I see the world. As well as, occasionally, a specific
piece of knowledge being useful (eg I'll do musical transcriptions from time
to time). I was a disaster coming out of high school, and college was the
ideal environment for me to become more independent and less of a jerk. I
almost studied commuter science, but ended up picking music and English, which
has led me such different and interesting places.

One caveat: I come from a country where you don't have to go into debt to
attend college. This frames the experience very differently, I think.

------
lordnacho
It's weird how a lot of people think they didn't learn anything in college. I
thought so too, just after finishing. Now I can think of a lot of things that
I maybe didn't learn very well, but I heard of in college.

\- Some guy writes about Bayesian networks. Lo and behold, I remember doing it
in college.

\- Someone floated the "20 most important equations" meme and I've seen them
all at college or at work. I can't say much about each of them, but I
definitely saw them and know roughly what they are about.

\- Coding. We did some of that in uni, though not in depth the way I do now.

\- Pretty much every economics topic you see in a newspaper.

It wasn't that much of a waste of time. Kinda like a buffet where you try a
few things so you know they exist, which perhaps is what college is supposed
to be.

Having to prep for exams killed the joy though.

------
libeclipse
tl;dr the rantings of some dude that did poorly in his own time at college and
thinks all it consists of is liberal arts degrees

Note: I'm a _university_ student in the UK, studying a serious technical
degree. I'm not sure if this level is equivalent to _" college"_ in the US, I
assume so.

~~~
alistairSH
_I 'm not sure if this level is equivalent to "college" in the US, I assume
so._

In a broad sense, yes. But, there's more to it.

In the US, there are several tiers of colleges...

\- Community Colleges: offer 2-year (associates) degrees. Frequently serve as
a launching point for entry into a 4-year program (if direct entry wasn't an
option due to lackluster performance in high school). Also frequently offer
vocational degrees (network and system admin, skilled trades, etc).

\- College: Offer 4-year (Bachelors) degrees. Typically do NOT offer post-
graduate degrees.

\- University: Offer 4-year AND post-graduate (or professional) degrees.

It's not a hard and fast rule - The College of William & Mary (Williamsburg,
VA) is one of the best universities in the nation and it's name is basically a
historical anomaly.

The majority of colleges in the US are probably equivalent to the UK's
polytechnics and other newer universities (vs the UK's ancient universities,
which are closer to our Ivy League + a few other select research
universities).

Edit - As it relates to this guy's blog, if he attended a top-tier university
and found it was a waste of time, he was likely not mature enough to take
advantage of its offerings.

------
frgtpsswrdlame
It ends very sweetly but the first 3/4 gave me the distinct impression that
his child is a lot smarter than he is when it comes to weighing the costs and
benefits of college.

------
skywhopper
tl;dr: The author didn't enjoy his college experience, so he believes no one
else will or can or should even try.

For me, college was an important stepping stone to personal responsibility and
a real career. The cliched (if not actually all that typical) four-year away-
from-home college degree can serve as a transitional period from complete
dependence to independence. That's not how the political sphere talks about
higher education, and the author denigrates that idea as "extended childhood",
but I think it serves a valuable purpose for those lucky enough to experience
it. Yes, it's outrageously expensive, yes student loans are a growing drag on
the economy, and yes far too many people are excluded, and yes it's not for
everyone. But it's a core part of our society, and it can't just be dismissed
as unimportant because you had a bad personal experience.

~~~
RationPhantoms
I definitely agree that college can be a boon for young-adult social
development but I think that should be where the focus is and not the pseudo-
benefits of an over-valued degree.

------
waylandsmithers
The mantra has always been "College isn't for everyone". I think some people
have assumed this was pejorative and just directed at bad students or the
poor, but there is much more to it. Maybe college isn't for you _right now_.
Maybe you don't know what you want to study yet. Maybe you aren't yet mature
enough to leave home. Or maybe money is a factor. But "Don't go to college" to
me seems as naive as "Everbody should go to college."

~~~
dagw
_Maybe college isn 't for you _right now_._

I wish this would get more traction. The number of 17-18 year olds who know
what they want to get out of college is probably tiny. Ideally going to
college straight after high school should really be the exception rather then
the rule.

------
geetfun
As someone who went to university and got an advanced degree, I can relate
with what he's saying. Nowadays, I no longer directly utilize the skills and
knowledge I gained from my 8+ years in school. But at the same time, the way I
think couldn't have ended up this way if my journey didn't go through formal
education. My parents and those around me weren't educated enough to point me
in the right direction such that I would end up with a more educated mindset.
And I certainly don't think I was born smart enough to have gotten here myself
without the exposure I had while at school.

Having kids as well, I question too the merit of sending them when they reach
university age. My perspective, of course, has changed given the fact that I
have now arrived, mentally, at a more educated state to know that formal
education is only one of many answers. It's hard to say whether my kids could
too arrive to a more educated state without the years of formal structure to
encourage that growth, despite their parents being educated.

Similar to others who have supported going to university, I think it may not
be a bad idea to support it still. I would say, however, that perhaps it's
important to go understanding that education there is merely one of many
perspectives.

------
AdamJeffe
It's hard for me to judge since i don't live in USA. He's got some points, but
i have a feeling it's also a lot about father "losing" his daughter to adult
world.

------
dudul
I was lucky enough to go to college in Europe, where it's basically free, to
study something that can be transposed anywhere (CS, as opposed to for example
law). I then moved to the US debt free. I'm in my late 30's and I _own_ (as in
"no mortgage") my house, while most of my coworkers (some in their 40s) are
still paying off their student loan and have to live with 2 or 3 other
roommates.

I'm all for good education, and obviously not the best judge since I didn't go
to college in the US, but I don't get how this is a good deal for students.
Especially when one knows that the cost of tuition is mostly artificial (I
think there were a few good articles about that on the front page of HN
recently).

~~~
lol768
> I was lucky enough to go to college in Europe, where it's basically free

This is not at all the case in England unfortunately - I guess I really
should've considered studying elsewhere in the EU where fees are better.

With that said, I still think I've got a better deal than most US students
since the fees there just seem to be ridiculous.

> I then moved to the US debt free

This is something I've considered, but I feel like I'd miss being an EU
citizen, the NHS and the culture etc. How have you found it since you moved,
if you don't mind me asking?

~~~
dudul
I'm still a EU citizen, I just live in the US :)

Health insurance is definitely the most mind-blowing thing to me as a non-
American. Even after more than 10 years I just don't get how people can put up
with this crazyness. I've been lucky to never be unemployed, and I always had
good coverage so it's never really been a concern.

I miss a few things from Europe, and there are things I have troubles getting
use to in America. The omnipresence of consumerism is a little difficult to
deal with. But otherwise, a lot of great things. And professionally, I
wouldn't have achieved half what I did had I stayed in Europe.

------
spodek
Ironically, one can teach active, experiential courses that teach skills.

As a professor at an elite school, I can say from experience that you wouldn't
believe how hard it is to get the administration to support such classes,
though. The administrative structure is designed to teach factual recall and
abstract analysis that don't develop skills useful for life or work.

Professors who publish or perish learn to publish. It being the skill they
have, they teach it. Not many professions benefit from publishing as your
primary skill. Nor citizenship, adulthood, or happiness.

------
lanestp
I used to think CS was the exception to my college is worthless philosophy.
Then I started dealing with recent graduates. The quality of the education
coming out of supposedly decent schools is abysmal. I think modern college is
proving itself particularly ill suited for the modern job market. They are
teaching out of date skills at a glacial pace. In fact, it’s gotten bad enough
that I don’t even ask about whether a candidate has a degree, they are simply
irrelevant.

~~~
dagw
_I used to think CS was the exception to my college is worthless philosophy._

I think traditional CS is a good example of "college is worthless" if your
goal in life is to become a 'normal' developer or developing 'normal' apps.

 _I think modern college is proving itself particularly ill suited for the
modern job market._

In general or only for programmers? I generally find that the recently
graduated civil engineers and architects I meet at work seem reasonably well
educated to start working on real projects fairly quickly. Certainly much more
so than any self educated engineer or architect might be.

------
elitro
This topic tends to show up every now and then here in HN.

If we ignore all the obvious benefits (learn the trade, self-discipline,
etc...) that you may or may not obtain from your studies, one of the most
relevant arguments i've seen discussed in here is the connections and
friendships.

College is a great place to make critical connections that can get you into
nice jobs or lifelong friendships that will last as long as you foster them.

Sure, working a job can also open those doors of oportunity, but if you are
working as a waitress like the author suggested, i just can't see how that can
help you direct your career or give you meaningful CV experience.

I have been very fortunate for having parents which pushed me into college and
ensured i finished it (i didn't make it easy, sadly ) but the payout has been
worth it. It also deppends on your country (some value the diploma more than
others, mine does) but at least it should help you get an interview, which is
good enough.

Ultimately, i believe the person should make the choice. And he, as the
father, should explain both courses of action to his daughter, instead of
pushing her into one direction just because going to college didn't work out
for him as great as he wanted to.

------
Mz
If I was his kid, I wouldn't listen to him either. His kid no doubt knows what
a blowhard he is.

I dropped out of college at age twenty. I went back later. Neither of my sons
felt compelled to go.

It is fine to argue against the idea that young people should feel compelled
to go to college and to catalog the fact that people have a lot of erroneous
ideas about college. It is not so cool to try to actively campaign against
college as an option.

------
_ZeD_
Am I the only one who has gone at the university because it was fun? Onestly
it was the richer time I spent of my life

~~~
itg
Yeah, created some great friends, have an amazing professional network, was
able to do research with professors, and took classes in areas I wouldn't have
thought to otherwise and the environment can't be replicated online.

This isn't to say that college is for everyone, but I don't regret my
experience one bit.

------
arethuza
I can't imagine anything more likely to make a teenager want to go to college
than a parent saying that they shouldn't!

My wife's parents didn't want her to go to University and only changed their
minds once she became a barrister (advocate here in Scotland).

------
aryamaan
I know the author is taking in the context of US colleges and I am from India
but I do want to put the effect of the college in my life.

In my entire childhood, we have been very poor financially but my brother and
I managed to get good grades throughout our school. That allowed us to study
in reputed colleges in the country and therefore, enabled us to get high
paying jobs. Just because of this advantage, I will always be grateful to
colleges and education, in general.

And not to forget the indirect benefits like life long friendships, a good
professional network among others.

------
vidanay
Very interesting. I don't have a college degree, but I do have a well
established and successful career as a senior software developer.

And yet, literally this week I am submitting applications to multiple
universities in order to complete my CS degree (I have about a years worth of
credit). I am doing this on the recommendation of my management as well as the
encouragement of my wife. Is it going to be easy? Nope. Is it going to be
worth it? I sure hope so.

------
5trokerac3
I have no doubt that college can be a great learning experience, but is it
really worth the cost to the average person? Is getting into debt that most
likely won't be payed off until their mid-thirties worth what they're getting
in return?

Like any investment, you have to see a return that justifies the cost, and I
don't think the higher education system in the US is providing that right now
for most career paths.

~~~
RationPhantoms
I think a hybrid environment of the frugalness of community college coupled
with an apprenticeship is the way to fix this. I agree with you that it's more
of a social stigma that you didn't go to college nowadays.

And I also do not believe in 80% of cases that the success of a bachelor's
degree justifies the cost.

------
lookACamel
College/uni provides a special type of social environment that you can't get
anywhere else.

Just stating a fact. Whether that fact is important is up to the individual.

------
gus_massa
I couldn't find which degree she wants. For some areas a degree is essential.
In other areas is a waste of time an money.

