
Why the Apple II ProDOS 2.4 Release Is the OS News of the Year - bootload
http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/5054
======
SwellJoe
I have so much admiration for the people who keep old platforms alive. I
tinker with a Commodore 64 (a real one) now and then, and I'm just blown away
by the community that still exists around it. People still write new software,
build new hardware (I have a MSSIAH synth/MIDI interface cartridge and it's a
blast to play with), make new demos and intros, discover new graphics modes
and sound techniques, etc. The landscape is pretty well mapped out, but people
still manage to find new ways to look at it every now and then.

I've always wanted an Apple IIgs, because it had a built-in FM synth that was
really powerful for the time (I have a fascination with electronic music and
equipment from that era, which is why I have the C64 and MSSIAH, as well as a
Gameboy with LSDJ). Maybe now is a good time to start looking around for one.

This is a fantastic story...I want to play with it, just because.

~~~
rsync
"I tinker with a Commodore 64 (a real one) now and then, and I'm just blown
away by the community that still exists around it."

I am curious - is there an analog in the c64 world to this new ProDOS 2.4
release ?

That is to say, have enthusiasts reworked and re-released the built-in c64
firmware or otherwise reworked the OS ?

~~~
Syssiphus
Looks like Geos for the C64 has recently been reverse engineered and is now
available on GitHub.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GEOS_(8-bit_operating_system)#...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GEOS_\(8-bit_operating_system\)#Reverse_engineering_efforts)
[https://github.com/mist64/geos](https://github.com/mist64/geos)

------
slyrus
Wow. This brings back memories of my first job at Apple working on the IIe
emulation board for the Mac LC.

~~~
mrpippy
Would love to hear more also! Did you have any involvement with 'Gus', the
IIgs emulator written (but never publicly released) by Apple?

------
ultramancool
Sounds similar to the China Dos Union MS-DOS "7.1" which used the DOS from
Windows 98 and included FAT32 support, long file names and a CD-based
installer.

[https://winworldpc.com/product/ms-dos/7x](https://winworldpc.com/product/ms-
dos/7x)

~~~
userbinator
I remember coming across that many years ago, as far as I remember it was a
rather interesting group of Chinese DOS-using hobbyists. They also came up
with a "Windows 3.2" that fit on a floppy and was also based on the 7.1,
creating possibly the only 3.x version of Windows with long filename support.
The latter was released under the name "PMWIN3.ZIP" and apparently can only be
found in the Internet archives now:
[http://web.archive.org/web/20070128175800/http://www.cn-
dos....](http://web.archive.org/web/20070128175800/http://www.cn-
dos.net/msdos71/pmwin3.zip)

(The rest of cn-dos.net is also worth checking out if you read Chinese or find
Google Translate to be sufficient; this is an example of one of the forgotten-
yet-very-interesting parts of the Internet.)

~~~
stuaxo
Interesting, do the open-file dialogues and winfile support LFNs in this ? (@
work and can't look right now).

~~~
userbinator
Yes:

[http://reboot.pro/uploads/monthly_04_2008/post-5-1208637282....](http://reboot.pro/uploads/monthly_04_2008/post-5-1208637282.jpg)

I'm not sure how they did it though, maybe when I have the time I'll look into
it since this is a very unusual software.

~~~
pgeorgi
probably copied the NT3.5 file manager and hacked it to work with win32s?
that's probably easier than modifying the win3.11 binaries to hold file name
buffers than what's needed for the 8.3 scheme.

(or maybe they binaries are actually pretty similar, so all it needed was a
slight API change for file name lookup)

------
endgame
Old apple stuff isn't my thing but I applaud any efforts to preserve our
history. Jason makes a number of good points about the sorry state of modern
OSes in his article, and it's worth a read for that alone.

~~~
userbinator
Along the same lines there's an "unofficial service pack" for Windows 98SE
which fixes a lot of little issues and actually allows running some
substantially newer applications on the 18-year-old OS. I wouldn't be
surprised if 2K/XP get the same treatment, and in fact I know it's already
happening. It's sometimes amazing what the community can come up with.

~~~
RachelF
I wish one could force vendors to open source operating systems they no longer
support.

~~~
chongli
Oh yes! Then we could get the source to Mac OS 9 and bring it into the modern
era! Spatial metaphor forever!

~~~
firebones
Imagine a fork of various Apple OS's that took skeuomorphic interfaces to
their logical conclusion!

We need a name for this: an open set of parallel computing universes. Maybe
OpenCandide: The Best of All Possible Worlds. (Ironic misinterpretation of the
phrase intentional.)

~~~
chongli
I'm not sure if you were implying otherwise or not, but: spatial metaphor file
managers are not skeuomorphic. Skeuomorphism strictly encompasses non-
functional interface elements, such as faux-leather stitching on Apple's old
address book application. The spatial metaphor Finder in OS 9 was 100%
functional.

The way it remembered all of the details (size, layout, position, display
mode) of each window and the way each window had an unbreakable 1 to 1
connection to a folder made it a joy to use. It allowed the user to identify
what window belonged to a folder at a glance and to be able to set up a whole
workspace arrangement and have it be remembered automatically by the Finder.

------
micro_softy
Here's an interesting retweet from ProDOS's author last month.

    
    
       @JBrooksBSI
       [59]Aug 17
       Was MS-DOS copied from CP/M? 
       [60]embedded.com/electronics-bl...
    
       60. https://t.co/mOR5mLBHwC
    

[http://www.embedded.com/electronics-blogs/say-
what-/4442498/...](http://www.embedded.com/electronics-blogs/say-
what-/4442498/Was-DOS-copied-from-CPM-)

~~~
13of40
"My conclusion is that DOS source code was not copied from CP/M source code."

"The commands were not copied; they were simple, descriptive terms that were
common to other operating system such as VMS and Apple DOS."

 _" The DOS system calls were definitely copied from the CP/M system calls.
Given the quantity of identical numbers representing identical functions, it
is clear that Tim Paterson referenced the CP/M manual when writing DOS."_

The last bit is alluded to in page D-7 of the DOS 1.0 user manual[1], which
says "There is an additional mechanism for _pre-existing programs_ that were
written with different calling conventions. The function number is placed in
the CL register...and an intrasegment call is made to location 5 in the
current code segment." That's because in CP/M, "...access to the FDOS
functions is accomplished by passing a function number and information address
through the primary point at location BOOT+0005H" [2].

[1]
[https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_ibmpcdos61_7006095](https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_ibmpcdos61_7006095)

[2]
[http://www.gaby.de/cpm/manuals/archive/cpm22htm/ch5.htm#Sect...](http://www.gaby.de/cpm/manuals/archive/cpm22htm/ch5.htm#Section_5.2)

So, yes, the DOS function calls were designed with CP/M backwards
compatibility in mind, and it says so right in the manual. Kind of.

------
partycoder
Another heroic effort was the posthumous release of Star Fox II. A community
took the Japanese alpha of Star Fox II, patched all the bugs, made it fully
playable, and translated it into English. I finished it and I can tell you it
was better than Star Fox 64.

------
exlurker
I love this kind of stuff! Related is the reverse engineered GEOS (C64)
available at github:
[https://github.com/mist64/geos](https://github.com/mist64/geos)

The maintainers are gearing up to support more platforms, CPUs, repair and
extend!

------
StillBored
Hmm, Still looks like it has the 32M (IIRC) partition limit. There are GSOS
drivers to work around this, but not for generic 8-bit prodos (AFAIK).

Frankly, the II line was always slow moving (the IIE was sold commercially
longer than any other computer without any significant upgrades). Which is why
was such a great learning computer, there were only a couple models, very well
documented, and hacked on to uncover every tiny little trick/edge case. Now
days, I look at 6502 assembly and wonder how I managed to get anything done
with such a restrictive stack/etc.

------
watermoose
Thank you John Brooks!! You are the best!!

Warning: this is going to get mushy...

While my first computer was the TRS-80 COCO I, I spent more time coding on my
second computer, the Apple IIe, coming home each afternoon after school to
just program and play games constantly. I owe my current occupation to that,
and my family and friends that benefit from my salary I all owe to those two
computers.

I love the Apple II line along with the TRS-80 COCO line and my heart is full
that there are those that continue to develop for them.

------
cpeterso
So how does one fix bugs in ProDOS 2.0.3? I assume John Brooks does not have
the ProDOS source code. Is he patching the old binaries?

~~~
teach
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that ProDOS was originally written
directly in assembly and not compiled from a higher-level language.

Disassembling is pretty trivial compared to de-compiling.

------
stinos
Interesting read, but no mention at all of what this thing is, or will be,
used for. Anyone?

~~~
KMag
My memory of 30 years ago is a bit rusty, but I don't recall an easy way to
format an Apple II disk without putting either Apple DOS or Apple ProDOS on
the disk. This version is smaller, more widely compatible, and adds several
third-party add-on features to ProDOS.

So, it's useful any time you'd format a disk in your Apple II emulator. Now
you get more utilities, and you disk works on a wider variety of hardware.

------
bronson
FTA, on why this is important:

 _Next is that this is an operating system upgrade free of commercial and
marketing constraints and drives. Compared with, say, an iOS upgrade that
trumpets the addition of a search function or blares out a proud announcement
that they broke maps because Google kissed another boy at recess. Or Windows
10, the 1968 Democratic Convention Riot of Operating Systems, which was
designed from the ground up to be compatible with a variety of mobile /tablet
products that are on the way out, and which were shoved down the throats of
current users with a cajoling, insulting methodology with misleading opt-out
routes and freakier and freakier fake-countdowns._

So true. :/

~~~
stephenr
> blares out a proud announcement that they broke maps because Google kissed
> another boy at recess

Sure, if by "broke", you mean "built a privacy-respecting competitor based on
a well-trusted open map technology called OpenStreetMap", and if by "kissed
another boy", you mean "withheld turn-by-turn navigation because Apple
wouldn't let Google whore out end-users private information as part of the
process"..,

~~~
marmshallow
Most of my friends still think Apple Maps is a complete failure of a product
because of their badly received launch. I'm always able to get them admit that
Apple Maps' satellite data is far superior when I show them the side by side
(try the satellite + map tilt in a major city or try the 3d tours).

~~~
stephenr
Mob opinion is generally not the best gauge of reality.

Look at all the shit people are posting about Apple removing an ancient analog
audio port, vs how many people are posting about Samsung the phone that self
combusts.

~~~
abpavel
Note 7 blow rate: 0.01% IPhone 7 jackless rate: 100% If my calculations are
correct, then about 10000x more people should write about Apple's jack
crucifixion.

Also, technology is not "ancient" just because it's 50 years old. Electric
motor is over 180 years old, and that's not ancient. It's not ancient if it's
used everywhere. If it's used everywhere, it's called modern.

~~~
stephenr
> IPhone 7 backless rate: 100%

iPhone 7 included adapter rate: 100%.

If a phone blowing up is not something to be concerned with (ignoring all the
Airlines and government departments telling people to turn them off while
flying), then a removed audio port shouldn't even factor into your
consciousness when you consider that they give you the adapter for free.

> Also, technology is not "ancient" just because it's 50 years old.

In the world of consumer electronics, 50 years _is_ ancient.

At the end of the day the way the 3.5mm jack is used in 2016 is the ultimate
hack-on-a-hack-on-a-hack. The plugs are all the same size, but they could have
anywhere from 2 to 5 contact points, depending on device type/manufacturer.

It worked for a while, but at some point you have to move on, and someone has
to be the first to move. As I said in another comment, Apple has always been
ahead of the pack when it comes to adopting new technology and dropping legacy
technology.

> Electric motor is over 180 years old, and that's not ancient. It's not
> ancient if it's used everywhere. If it's used everywhere, it's called modern

No, if its used everywhere its called "popular" or "ubiquitous".

An electric motor can be modern, if it's a new/recent design. That doesn't
make all electric motors modern.

~~~
the_trapper
> iPhone 7 included adapter rate: 100%.

iPhone 1-7 requires proprietary connector rate: 100%.

> It worked for a while, but at some point you have to move > on, and someone
> has to be the first to move. As I said in > another comment, Apple has
> always been ahead of the pack > when it comes to adopting new technology and
> dropping > legacy technology.

That'd be a great argument if what Apple was providing was objectively BETTER
than the status quo. However, I'd wager that most people wouldn't call needing
an adapter to utilize off the shelf headphones they already own or having to
buy very expensive ones that will only work on SOME Apple products (not every
Mac comes with a proprietary Lightning port) an improvement.

It's a pity too because I was seriously considering making the switch over to
an iPhone next year, but then Apple goes and reminds how poorly they play with
others.

EDIT: Oh and I almost forgot, want to charge your phone and use wired
headphones at the same time? Better buy another adapter (not included).

