
America has no use for hides, so leather prices plunge - prostoalex
https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2019-08-18/america-is-obsessed-with-beef-but-it-has-no-use-for-hides-so-leather-prices-plunge
======
stonogo
I'd be interested to know how much of this has to do with the dilution of the
meaning of 'leather' in terms of consumer goods. The market is flooded with
garbage products, which are produced by slicing a thin veneer of leather and
gluing it to a plastic backing, which is then sold as "bonded leather." It's
gotten so bad that full-grain leather products are exceedingly rare.

Since 90% of "leather" products are such awful garbage, it's not surprising to
me that consumers have abandoned the sector en masse.

~~~
xahrepap
I had a really awesome leather belt that I got when I was 15. I stopped
wearing it when I was 30 because my weight finally out outgrew the belt. Still
have it. It's no worse today than it was when I got it as a teen.

I go through about a belt a year now. Because I always seem to end up with
this crap you describe. Even if I try to avoid it. Guess I need to do a better
job looking... Or just lose some weight so I can use that same belt for
another 15years.

~~~
cbsks
I have a couple of leather belts (one brown and one black) that I got from
[https://simpleleatherbelt.com/](https://simpleleatherbelt.com/)

I highly recommend them. These belts will last a lifetime.

~~~
newsbinator
The website is a study in how not to do a checkout process, even on simpler
mom-n-pop WooCommerce sites.

\- - - -

> TIP CUT C125

> Round

> English Point

> Taper

\- - - -

> Belt length:

> * DO NOT USE YOUR PANTS SIZE *

> 25

> 26

> 27

\- - - -

It's better if you:

1\. Explain which options are recommended for what kind of customer, or which
options go together better in a set.

2\. Don't expect checkout customers to work in your leather belt shop.

What does C125 mean? Why is it prominent in the checkout?

If you're not meant to use your pants size, how about a sizing guide?

~~~
colmvp
C125 refers to the belt model, Clinch 1.25

The tip cuts make sense to me. You can either go rounded, have a point, or go
with a taper. The image changes based on which one you choose.

They have a sizing guide on the product page where they use your old belt as a
base for measurement.

As for point number one, I feel like that's a matter of preference,
specifically because fashion is subjective.

I mean, I agree with the sentiment of your comment, specifically they could
definitely do more user friendly things, but I figure most of their customers
are into bespoke products and are okay with doing research on their own or are
informed.

~~~
newsbinator
"Clinch 1.25" means something to the website owners and to their more
dedicated customers.

I'm not that person though- I just clicked on a picture of a belt on their
homepage, so "C125" is a random string to me.

Is "C125" the thing I want to order or the opposite of that thing? I forget.

I also wouldn't know they have a sizing guide on their homepage, because I'm
on their checkout page already.

I know that sounds silly (and pretty much incompetent of me as a buyer), but
there are a lot of eComm sites, a lot of places to buy belts, and busy lives
for customers.

You either hold the customer's hand through checkout, or you bleed abandoned
carts.

I found a comment online that goes:

> Tapered

> \- easier grip to pull/cinch the belt

> \- easier to get through the loop Rounded

> \- 5" less excess going through the loop.

> \- great if you are sharing belts (if the smaller person is wearing the belt
> in its tightest setting, they won't have the excess talked about in first
> bullet point)

Little notes like this would go a long way during the checkout process.

~~~
ValentineC
The image on this page updates with the colour and tip cut as the user chooses
the option: [https://simpleleatherbelt.com/product/belt-
cinch-1-25/](https://simpleleatherbelt.com/product/belt-cinch-1-25/)

I personally thought that the tip cut might have been more of an aesthetic
preference than one of practicality.

------
ficklepickle
The article claims natural tanning methods result in an inferior product. I
believe this to be false. The reason nasty chemicals are used is because it is
cheaper, especially if the toxic waste can just be dumped in the environment.

If they are "looking" for a natural method, look no further than Chouara
tannery in Fez, Morocco. It's an open air tannery that has operated
continuously since the 11th century, with the techniques handed down through
the generations.

They use cow urine, pigeon feces, quicklime, salt and water in the tanning
process. It smells about as bad as you would imagine. They give visitors a
sprig of mint to hold in front of your nose. It helps, a little bit.

The end result is gorgeous leather that stands up very well. I have a pouf
that is dyed with saffron, it is still soft a decade later. If you get a
chance to buy some of this leather, I would highly recommend it. I'm sure it
is available online, too.

------
matheweis
“According to Hidenet, a leather markets research firm, a hide from a branded
cow went for as little as $4 the week of July 15, down from as much as $81
just five years ago.”

Wait, what? Consumer trends have shifted so radically in 5 years that even
with a white hot economy leather prices have dropped by 20x?

~~~
brandmeyer
Beef and hide are coupled goods. One cow produces about X kg of beef and Y m^2
of hide. If demand for beef is extra high, then it will depress the price of
hide because the ratio in supply is roughly fixed between them.

There are other examples in modern society. Chlorine and caustic soda are
produced in strictly fixed ratios from NaCl salt and electricity. Extra demand
for one will depress the price of the other. The effect is quite sharp in this
example, since both products are expensive to store.

Similarly, the hydraulic fracking industry has somewhat depressed the market
price of natural gas in the US. The miners are really hunting for high-value
liquid hydrocarbons. The gaseous hydrocarbons are quite low-margin by
comparison, but come along for the ride in the shale being exploited right
now. The effect is more modest in this example since new home construction,
new electricity production, and industrial process heat can all be biased
towards natural gas. But its still there.

If electric and other high-efficiency propulsion technologies takes off enough
to impact gasoline consumption, then a side effect in the US will be an
_increase_ in natural gas prices. The source of the increase is twofold:
Decreased production of liquid hydrocarbons will decrease supply of gaseous
hydrocarbons, and increased demand for electricity will raise demand for
gaseous hydrocarbons.

~~~
drcode
Why don't they just breed cows that are more spherical, to maximize the
volume-to-surface-area ratio?

~~~
rs23296008n1
Or more wrinkly. Increased surface area compared to a sphere. It works on
brain surface area.

There's probably a tradeoff in the quality of the hide as a result of this
however.

~~~
rags2riches
I imagine most uses call for flat leather rather than curved.

~~~
mcv
So you want to breed cube-shaped cows?

~~~
rags2riches
If the sphere-cow is big enough, the surface will be practically flat...

------
ngngngng
I'm actually in the market for a leather jacket and boots right now, but I
certainly haven't noticed prices going down at all.

I'm finding leather jackets extremely difficult to shop for. Online advice is
all over the place, and I want something to last a lifetime.

~~~
Animats
Find a cheap heavy but stiff motorcycle jacket that's solid leather. Get a can
of Hydrophane leather dressing, which is about $20/half liter. This silicone
oil is used to soften and waterproof saddles and horse equipment. Paint it on
with a paintbrush. Give it about a day to soak in. You now have a soft leather
jacket.

Horse people have been using this stuff for decades. It beats the "natural"
products like neats-foot oil on both effectiveness and price.

~~~
yumraj
Two questions:

1) when you say cheap, roughly how much? Range is fine.

2) any brands, websites that you can refer?

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lwhalen
Interesting. I suppose I'm one of the few holdouts who still love leather
clothing (motorcycle jackets, you weirdos ;-)) and accessories (I have
multiple Saddleback Leather bags, wallets, etc). I don't see those items
getting cheaper any time soon, I guess that indicates their profit margins
have gone through the roof in the interim.

~~~
stonogo
The expense in producing fine leather goods is the labor costs. It's a craft
which requires much training and/or experience, and highly-skilled
leatherworkers do not come cheaply.

~~~
Scoundreller
Is there any reason why someone in a developing country couldn't be trained to
do it?

It's definitely not a niche skill.

~~~
Joelexander
Oh there are. They usually make up the "value" segment of the luxury goods
markets.

For men's dress shoes brands like Meermin and Grant Stone (China) are
competing with Carmina (Spain) and Alden (USA).

I'm sure there's others for every type of leather good imaginable.

------
billfruit
If you have read Richard Henry Dana, "Two Years Before the Mast", much of life
in California used to revolve around the processing and trade of hides, in
fact seemingly in many places that was the only activity going on. How the
times have changed.

~~~
kanaba
An excellent book and insight into a slice in time.

------
jbob2000
This is a shame because if you search for leather goods online, you’ll find
whole shops full of garbage quality leather called Premium Crafted Leather aka
PU Leather. They take leather fibers and coat it in polyurethane to give it a
“proper” finish.

It’s disappointing to see a race to the bottom with leather quality when it
seems like there’s no need for that.

~~~
human20190310
Non-leather goods are even worse. It's really hard to find a vegan wallet and
belt that isn't _pretending_ to be leather in some inadequate way.

~~~
hombre_fatal
> It's really hard

You can't just google "canvas wallet" or whatever is your preferred material?

~~~
human20190310
Many of these canvas wallets include features such as "full-grain leather
trim" which defeats the purpose of the search. Those that don't mostly look
like fragile garbage.

------
dcchambers
Unfortunately these lower leather prices certainly don't seem to have affected
the price of premium, handmade leather goods. Leather is good in so many
things: wallets, belts, shoes, bags, jackets... It's naturally water-resistant
and lasts for _decades_ , yet it seems like all the big-box stores and
manufactures have abandoned real full-grain leather for synthetics or even
cheaper leather alternatives (PU, "top grain," "corrected grain," "genuine,"
etc). Despite the leather prices falling off a cliff, real full-grain leather
is becoming a niche market.

> “There are hides with no value. We’re throwing a natural product in the
> garbage.”

This makes me very sad. The least we could do with the burgeoning meat market
is use all of the parts of the animal to the best of our ability. The fact
that people still prefer fake synthetic leather when real leather is so cheap
and readily available it's being thrown away is unfortunate.

~~~
ValentineC
> _it seems like all the big-box stores and manufactures have abandoned real
> full-grain leather for synthetics or even cheaper leather alternatives (PU,
> "top grain," "corrected grain," "genuine," etc)._

If we're specifically talking about full-grain leather, I suspect that it's
because consumers have this unrealistic ideal of "unmarked"/"mint" leather
that's hard to achieve, at low prices, on large pieces of full-grain leather.

------
wyldfire
> So-called fast-fashion and athleisure — clothing which contains no leather
> at all — now dominate American retail.

This makes me think of the wallmount synthetic-fiber-clothing-dispenser from
"Idiocracy."

------
reallydude
I saw a pile of leather pieces outside a home, on the street, near Seattle
with a sign that said "free leather". I'm not sure why anyone would want it,
but it looked sad...like someone had died and they were clearing the home.

~~~
criddell
People make stuff with it.

Check out
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Leathercraft/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Leathercraft/)

------
gumby
I never liked leather as a material: heavy, easily scratched, etc. when I was
a kid it was used in everything from backpacks to camera cases. Leather seats
in cars get hot in ways cloth ones do not. Etc. Good riddance!

Well, I have leather hiking boots. Heavy but highly functional.

It always seemed crazy to me that leather goods, while functionally inferior
in most cases, are considered the _”luxury”_ versions. Some sort of Vleben
reasoning I suppose.

Well, at least it’s biodegradable unlike most of the alternatives. That’s a
big deal too.

~~~
inamberclad
My boots scratch because they're coated and dyed oddly, drives me nuts. All
the scratches on my belt blend in over time.

I love the stuff (thank you, cows), it's a heavy, reliable organic
construction material. Lasts a lot longer than fabrics.

The trick is to get 'full grain' leather, that's the actual thickness of the
cowhide and doesn't have backings or multiple layers glued together.

------
g_2k3
Does anybody know where to get these low price hides in the US. I am a
hobbyist leather worker and I have not noticed any fall in prices.

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rdlecler1
Cheap corn and soybeans = cheap feed = more cows = more leather = lower
prices.

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pitcher
Doubt if this has much to do with not needing a use v/s the ethical problems
attached to it + synthetic options being more viable and cheaper

------
rabbitonrails
How long can hides be stored before becoming unusable?

~~~
compiler-guy
With proper prep and good climate control, you can store leather for decades.

------
_bxg1
Americans are eating _more_ beef than they have in a decade? That's really
surprising; seems everyone I talk to - not just vegetarians - have started
looking at beef as something to be indulged in only on occasion. I assume the
climate impact is the main reason.

~~~
efiecho
That's why one should not make assumptions based on limited personal
experience.

We have eaten meat for thousands of years and most people will not stop doing
that, just bcause it's currently fashionable to say you do not eat meat or
have reduced consumption.

------
PorterDuff
So how come Lucchese boots are still so expensive?

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pbhjpbhj
Shoe prices must be rock bottom, right?

~~~
gingabriska
But shoes aren't priced for raw material used, they've brand value which
fetches higher price which mostly has to do with social signaling.

~~~
bdowling
That’s not true if you’re talking about well-made men’s dress shoes. In that
market, the best shoes are the best entirely because of materials and
workmanship. Brand mainly indicates the level of quality you should expect as
a buyer. Also, the brand can’t serve much of a social signaling function
because usually trademarks aren’t visible and designs are traditional.

~~~
jefftk
That makes sense, but since you're mostly paying for expert labor, decreases
in the cost of the raw materials won't affect the price much.

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neonate
[http://archive.is/clJ5X](http://archive.is/clJ5X)

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lxhmj
In World of Warcraft, there isn't any use for hides either. You can only cure
them, but then there's nothing to do with the cured hides. The vendor price is
static and set by Blizzard, though, so the prices don't change.

I hope this comment has been useful to someone.

~~~
tialaramex
I would be sympathetic to the idea that in-game economies should try to be
"real" except that Ultima Online tried that and it failed spectacularly
(think: tragedy of the commons) and so they had to abandon it.

~~~
johnzim
To be fair, Ultima Online’s economy was tanked by the innovation of
bard/tamers and the Trammel ruleset introduced in Renaissance.

Massively increasing the supply by having it possible for players to
trivialise the ransacking of dungeons without risk of losing their haul to
PKers. Classic inflationary spiral.

~~~
jghn
The virtual economy of UO was killed by the time the beta test ended. We're
talking about the NPC shopkeepers here, not the player owned vendors. The NPCs
were supposed to follow things like supply/demand as well as having
preferences as to what they wanted. Players got mad as they wanted to just be
able to dump any old crap (typically bucketloads of skullcaps) to any old NPC.

The NPC shopkeepers also kept hours, would take breaks & walk around town,
etc. That was another thing they wound up getting rid of quickly

~~~
johnzim
Ah yes, I had forgotten about that stuff. A bunch of it was before my time and
I only knew about it from other players' stories. Thank you for posting it!

Even with so much of that removed, UO always had the feeling of a living
breathing world more than almost any other game.

~~~
jghn
I've heard stories that the Star Wars MMO captured a lot of the same aspects,
at least the positive ones. Not surprising considering Koster's influence on
both.

I never played it however, I was too hung up on the notion that anything short
of a full on sandbox which allowed all the behaviors people were fleeing would
be good enough for me. Took me a while to realize that the only people showing
any interest in the types of games I was looking for were the people I hated.

~~~
tialaramex
Too late now but you might have enjoyed A Tale In The Desert, a very niche MMO
where social dynamics were key. As an extreme example, the players could hold
an election for Demi-Pharoah and the winner was entitled to ban one player
from the game. Not a character, the player. Campaigns might claim they would
just never use this power. On the other hand if someone is a total asshole
(e.g. building penis shaped art in your farm and deliberately distracting
people from group efforts like moving bits of pyramid) maybe a DP campaign
could just promise to ban them.

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gingabriska
So is it going to affect India? Leather is prominent industry in India. To
what extent will it be affected?

~~~
selimthegrim
My impression was Yogi Adityanath had already been picking on the industry in
UP largely because of who predominates in it

~~~
bendbro
Are you implying something about religion based infighting between Muslims and
Hindus?

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hexscrews
Paywalled.

