
Murderous Games: Gladiatorial Contests in Ancient Rome - diodorus
http://www.historytoday.com/keith-hopkins/murderous-games-gladiatorial-contests-ancient-rome
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hackuser
> It is worth stressing that we are dealing here not with individual sadistic
> psycho-pathology, but with a deep cultural difference. Roman commitment to
> cruelty presents us with a cultural gap which it is difficult to cross.

I'm not sure that's true. Remember that Germany and Austria were centers of
Western civilization, culture, arts and learning before WWII, yet look at the
bloodthirsty practices they embraced. Other European countries did similar
things in their overseas colonies.

We are not immune; human nature hasn't changed. We are made of the same stuff
as Romans, Nazis, ISIL members, Serb ultranationalists and Rwandan Hutu
nationalists. Currently it seems there's a public movement to embrace hatred
as a norm, and violence, including war internationally and firearms
domestically, as an acceptable solution to problems. If those become norms I
worry about the next steps.

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hodgesrm
I don't think it's quite as generic as you portray. Rome was truly in a class
of its own. Brutal violence characterized most ancient societies, and wars
were winner-take-all affairs. Yet Rome had a top-to-bottom, win-at-any-cost
militarization of society that set it apart from all but a few states like
Macedon and Sparta. Romans who surrendered rather than dying in battle were
often ostracized, as happened after Cannae. Roman armies were also capable of
genocidal cruelty towards enemies, as demonstrated in the conquest of Gaul.
The city won dominion of the Mediterranean through brutally efficient armies
as well as a willingness to shrug off terrible losses. It's not surprising to
see the same attitudes permeating civilian life.

The closest European parallel seems to be Prussia, especially from the time of
Frederic the Great onwards. It is the most complete example of the nation in
arms I can think of. Yet even they lacked the casual brutality of the Romans.

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hackuser
I think you'd be interested in this:

[http://laphamsquarterly.org/states-war](http://laphamsquarterly.org/states-
war)

It's an amazing collection of documents on war, across history and cultures,
from Homer to the US invasion of Iraq, written by everyone from participants
to victims to experts to scholars to poets.

After reading it, my strong impression that was that Rome was brutal, but so
has been almost everyone else.

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hodgesrm
Thanks! That's a new one. War is brutal and you are right that at some level
it's hard to make clear distinctions. The Romans were certainly very good at
it.

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woodruffw
Our contemporary fascination with the gladiatorial games does not reflect that
of the Romans - to them, the races were the peak of entertainment.

The Circus Maximus was built over 400 years before the Coliseum, and could
hold over twice as many people _by conservative estimates_. It was only in the
very late Republic to early Empire that gladiatorial combat gained widespread
attention in Rome itself, having previously been limited to smaller arenas in
towns throughout the empire (and a funeral ritual prior to that).

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B1FF_PSUVM
> a funeral ritual prior to that

Aspiring candidates would 'save' the death of a parent for a while, so they
could give the funeral games at election time.

P.S. actually, I believe that was the case with Caesar, mentioned in the text
as one of the givers of ostentatious games.

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pjlegato
The games weren't "murder," which is by definition the _unlawful_ taking of
another's life. Roman gladiatorial combat was perfectly legal at the time.

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pcunite
Weren't some persons there against their will?

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pjlegato
Of course, in the same sense that most people condemned to die (or merely to
go to prison) are also there against their will.

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sosuke
This is a fascinating post but I couldn't find a bibliography on the page is
it hidden somewhere? Would love to read more about this history.

Nevermind I found a scan of the article that had it (1983!)
[http://i.imgur.com/Fs4KjO3.png](http://i.imgur.com/Fs4KjO3.png)

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backtoyoujim
"wild-beast killings until the sixth century"

I guess 21st century bull-fighting fits in here somehow.

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B1FF_PSUVM
(1983).

Which partially explains the high quality of the piece. I wasn't expecting it
and was surprised. Harder to find nowadays.

It's not a simple minded rant, and has a good lot of factual historical
details, accurate as far as I can tell as someone way less expert than the
author.

The perspective on the facts is also reasonable, if not fashionable (nowadays
it goes more "yuck, not us.")

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pmoriarty
I'm kind of surprised this sort of spectacle no longer exists. Considering the
enormous popularity of depictions of violence in mass media, sports, and video
games, real gladitorial games would probably be pretty popular. You'd think at
least some third world country without much concern for pesky thinks like
morals, ethics, or human rights, or animal welfare would have them.

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restalis
For the same reason the said games fell out of favor in the public perception.
Christianity gained power. Not to say that torture and murder were not taken
place under christian priests' sight if not command, but in the later the
cause was always punitive in regard to or attempts to gain cooperation from
victims, whereas the former were for show and entertainment alone.

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bambax
> _AI) 79_

Was this scanned? This looks like an OCR error.

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B1FF_PSUVM
Given the 1983 date on the piece, probably. It was the only one I noticed,
too. The phrase is about Pompeii, so A.D. 79, obviously.

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aaron695
> New species were gradually introduced to Roman spectators (tigers,
> crocodiles, giraffes, lynxes, rhinoceros, ostriches, hippopotami) and killed
> for their pleasure.

We still kill billions of animals each year for pleasure (Eating when the
calories aren't needed)

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Animats
Today, we have the NFL.

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B1FF_PSUVM
Which also takes its toll of many thousands of young men trashed.

Besides movies and games, of course.

