
Is Apple failing to understand family users? - robomartin
Several kids in our family got new iPod Touch's this xmas. The kids started to setup their iPods just while, we, the parents were having coffee and deserts. Then it happened. My kid comes up to me and says something like "I have all your contacts on my iPod". The other kids? Yup, they all got their parents contacts.<p>It seems iMessage is also able to send and receive messages from the child's device as if the parent had sent them.<p>Yes, you can go into Settings and disable what iCloud syncs. It's quite a list: Mail, Contacts, Calendar, Reminders, Safari, Notes, Passbook, PhotoStream, Documents<p>Your kid can actually Delete your iCloud account. The iCloud settings will not allow you to clear out the password and user id. Maybe there are other issues as well. Don't know.<p>You could create a new account for each kid. At a mininum, this means that you have to re-purchase all the paid apps from every account.<p>I think Apple really needs to offer a family or group plan. I know they want to sell more devices and copies of the same apps. I get it. However, I think it is more important for parents to have total independent control of their kid's devices.<p>The first company to offer this is bound to have a really interesting differentiating factor on the table, one that would appeal to a lot of people. Does the W8 phone platform offer this? If so, MS needs to let people know. It could be important to a large group of customers.<p>Guest users represent another important use case. If you hand someone your iPhone they have access to nearly everything past the unlock screen. With iCloud, they'd have access to everything on your iPads and iPods. If you have to lend someone your iPad you really have to trust that they are not going to go look under your skirt. A multi-user setup with centrally-managed user accounts would allow you to setup a "Guest" account with restricted access to your data and apps, etc.<p>Will Apple every do this?
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andrewmunsell
_You need to setup the iPod/iPhone like this_ :

\- During setup, create or sign into the kid's _own_ iCloud account. This is
_separate_ from the iTunes account with purchases.

\- After the device is setup and running, go into settings, and find the
iTunes & App Stores section. Tap the Apple ID email address and _sign out_.

\- Sign in, in this section, with the iTunes account that has all of the
purchases. _This will not sync anything, including contacts or email._

\- Ensure all of the "Automatic Downloads" checkboxes are disabled, unless you
want apps you download on your iPhone/iPad to automatically find their way
onto your kid's iPod/iPhone.

\- Go into the app store and to the purchases tab. Download the apps you've
already purchased.

This allows you to purchase an app on any device, and redownload it on any
other for free, without syncing contacts and iMessage across everything. This
only shares the _store_ account with all devices.

Because you've already setup the device, you may need to do a full reset and
setup the device again the way I posted.

~~~
scoot
_> During setup, create or sign into the kid's own iCloud account._

Depending on the age of your children, that may be a little tricky. Kids have
to be 13 or older to have an apple account, as I discovered when I ran into
this same problem earlier today.

~~~
arrrg
You do not need an iCloud account to set up a device. I also don’t think it’s
necessary for kids to be honest.

------
cmsj
Don't sign other peoples' device into your iCloud account.

What you want is to have each person have their own iCloud account, but then
do all the iTunes store purchases under a separate account. This is obviously
tricky if you already have a single iCloud account which has a lot of iTunes
purchases. There is no way out of that.

If you're completely new to iOS, or are old enough to have an iTunes account
that pre-dates iCloud and thus likely have a separate iCloud account, you are
golden :)

~~~
cmsj
Thinking about it, there is a possible way out if you don't have separate
iTunes/iCloud accounts already.

If you're not using the email address on the iCloud account with all your
iTunes purchases, simply sign yourself up to a new one and migrate your data
over, then remove contacts/calendars/etc from the account with all the
purchases and use that one for signing into the iTunes store on all the
family's devices.

~~~
nopal
It's possible to use an account that's set up for both iCloud and iTunes for
iTunes-only stuff on the kids' devices. The account should just not be used to
sign into iCloud on those devices.

------
Someone
_The kids started to setup their iPods just while, we, the parents were having
coffee and deserts. Then it happened. My kid comes up to me and says something
like "I have all your contacts on my iPod"._

I think you are skipping the step where your kid asks you for your username
and password, or logs in on your Mac using your account.

To your question: as others said: data syncing is through an iCloud account
and app rights are also linked to an iCloud account, but the two need not be
identical.

The process of getting there is a bit convoluted, but I do not see Apple
streamline it, as it would make it too easy to pirate apps. If I had a paid
app out there, I would not be happy if it typically got shared between, say, 3
users.

~~~
robbiet480
App Rights are linked to an Apple ID. An Apple ID could be:

* .Mac

* MobileMe

* iCloud

* AOL

* Other email provided from a service other then the above.

------
nolok
> You could create a new account for each kid. At a mininum, this means that
> you have to re-purchase all the paid apps from every account.

That's what apple wants, and that's also what a lot of other companies try to
do (steam ? kindle ?).

I'm interested in the outcome of this if one day someone takes it to court in
the EU. I don't know for other countries but I know that here in France it was
ruled several times with "old medias" (box games, books, music cd, ...) that
when buying one it was your right to share it with your household (I'm
simplifying a bit it, but basically you shouldn't have to buy a new copy for
each person as you had the right to share one). I'm pretty sure whoever
seriously tried to push for court would get a settlement offered pretty quick
to avoid any judgment on the matter.

~~~
bradleyland
A couple of points that a lot of people are missing:

1) You can use a separate account for iCloud and iTunes purchases. The default
is to configure them as the same, because it simplifies the setup process and
matches use cases for most people.

2) The matter of licensing and multiple purchases isn't just an Apple concern,
it's a general software licensing concern. You can't buy one copy of Microsoft
Office and install it on all of your PCs either. You'll start getting
activation errors after the first couple of activations. That's because the
licensing is per-device, not per person. In general, people don't understand
software licensing, but the fact that you can buy an app on the App Store one
time for 99¢ and install it on multiple iOS devices is actually a huge
improvement for end users. The trade-off is that you have to do so under a
single iTunes account. This requires a minimal amount of additional
configuration.

------
larrydavid
Apparently you can do this with Home Sharing
(<http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3819>). Initially you will need to use the
same Apple ID across all devices to download the apps you want to share. Once
they have been downloaded and authorized, you can then sign in with a
different Apple ID and use the 'shared' apps fine. I have not personally tried
this, but there is plenty of evidence that this works from scanning a few
Google search results.

------
mendocino
> You could create a new account for each kid. At a mininum, this means that
> you have to re-purchase all the paid apps from every account.

Not necessarily, you could have separate iCloud accounts for each family
member and one shared iTunes/App Store account. You can use a different
account for iTunes and the App Store, so you don't have to change accounts all
the time. At least that's what we do.

------
cmelbye
This simply isn't the right way to set up the devices, it should be obvious
that if you sign into iCloud, its going to sync your iCloud data... One
account corresponds to one person. Create an account for each person, and use
that during the initial set up. For iTunes, you can have a shared account
between all family members so you don't have to purchase things multiple
times.

------
nextstep
No. You failed to setup your iPods and iOS devices properly with separate
iCloud accounts.

------
lukeholder
You can have a spectate iCloud account for each child. And if you want to
redownload apps to their devise just log in with your iTunes account. iCloud
and iTunes accounts do not need to be the same email.

------
Vitaly
This is not quite correct. While the setup should most probably be made easier
and more apparent it is quite possible and even not that hard to setup
properly those family devises.

The main idea is that you use common 'itunes' account to share your app
purchases between the devices but you can have separate iCloud, iMessage and
other account. in fact many of the services have per-service apple-id
configuration.

A quite comprehensive overview can be found at [http://gigaom.com/apple/how-
many-apple-ids-should-your-famil...](http://gigaom.com/apple/how-many-apple-
ids-should-your-family-have/)

------
hanleybrand
I think it's possible to likely that Apple would implement something along the
lines of sub-accounts for iOS, so that you could hand your iProduct to your
kid without worrying that they could read your email, delete pictures,
whatever - but it wouldn't be a real account, more like an alias with
different settings, but still based on the same apple id.

It's less likely that apple will do a "family plan" - they seem to be pulling
away from that model - there are no family plans on the osx app store as far
as I know - on the other hand, the osx App Store is way less constrained than
the iPhone store (you can install purchases in multiple macs) - I think Apples
argument would be along the lines of "when most apps cost less than $10, it
shouldn't be a problem to buy them 5 times if 5 people want them"

------
robomartin
The suggestion to setup a separate iCloud account per kid is great, except
that the TOS prohibits it for kids 12 and under:

<http://www.apple.com/legal/icloud/en/terms.html>

With regards to the "proper" way to setup an iPod. I'd be willing to be that
the vast majority of users have no clue whatsoever. I'd also be willing to bet
that most users use the same login uid and pwd for both services, which means
that when asked for credentials they automatically enter that info. Grandma
has no clue as to the finer points of how to setup an iPod for the kids.

Aside from that, Apple gives no guidance whatsoever on "best practices". Users
turn on the device and just enter what they are prompted to enter without any
options to learn about the consequences of their choices. Given that, it is
perfectly reasonable to expect most people to not even consider some of the
posted ideas.

Most of the comments seem to have ignored the fundamental premise of my post:

Group account management and multi-user capabilities are sorely missing on
iOS. There are a ton of use cases beyond the kids-with-ipods example. Yes, you
can hack and patch your way around solving the specific issues I presented.
We've already done it, of course. This is not a solution to the greater
underlying issue.

Put plainly, I ought to be able to have full command of my "fleet" of iDevices
as the administrator. This includes adding and removing users, enabling user
access to different devices, selecting which apps are available to each user,
selecting who can see what data (for example, photos) and managing guest
accounts on the various devices.

It sounds complicated, but, well, either Apple is a great software/UI company
or they are not. They ought to be able to make something like this usable.

Here's another use case for multiple accounts: Development. As far as I have
been able to tell, there is no way to have a development and shipping version
of your app on the same device. In other words, I want to be able to show and
test my shipping app while, at the same time, also have my latest development
build installed. I have to admit not having researched this too far, but it
seems that it isn't possible. The only way is to actually call your
development version something else. If you had multiuser capabilities you
could have a "dev" user where all of your development builds and experiments
could live. Your normal user would be nice and clean and only have the
shipping version.

~~~
ricardobeat
One account per device is _way_ simpler than your "fleet management" could
ever be for home use.

~~~
robomartin
How so?

    
    
        - Purchase a new device.
        - Power it up.
        - It asks you if it should be setup individually or as part of a group.
        - You select group and enter the credentials.
        - It then navigates you through a set of sensible startup options to configure the device's primary user
        - Anything else you do online or through a dedicated group management app
    

In the case of getting an iPod for a kid, you power the thing up, choose
group, enter her name, check off the allowed apps from a list, enable other
options (can they make purchases?) and you are pretty much done. Hand it to
the kid and walk away. You can refine other setup items at a later time.

I don't want my five year old to have an Apple ID or iCloud account. I just
want her to have access to a dozen apps and that's it.

~~~
ricardobeat
You assume that you have a "group" set up in some other machine, and it needs
to be powered up - or if this happens via the internet you need some kind of
identification beforehand. If the kid is going to be able to make purchases,
it will need a password (you don't want their friends or anyone else spending
their credits). And all of this requires a special app or website with a
management interface.

My point is that this would create a whole new set of tools that you'd need to
grasp. For comparison, steps for currently activating an independent device:

    
    
        - Purchase.
        - Power up.
        - Choose locale/etc settings.
        - Create new apple ID.
        - Enter your credentials in App Store.
        - Download apps.
    

Hand it to the kid and walk away. None of this requires fumbling with settings
on another machine. If you need to change settings, grab the iPod, change the
settings.

------
emehrkay
You do not have to re purchase apps for new accounts, you just need to use
itunes to transfer/share apps.

[http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/share_iphone_applicat...](http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/share_iphone_applications_just_like_itunes_songs)

This seems to be a way around having to use itunes
[http://howto.cnet.com/8301-11310_39-57467103-285/how-to-
shar...](http://howto.cnet.com/8301-11310_39-57467103-285/how-to-share-your-
itunes-account-with-multiple-ios-devices/)

------
nuttendorfer
>You could create a new account for each kid. At a mininum, this means that
you have to re-purchase all the paid apps from every account.

This is what Apple wants.

~~~
arrrg
No, this is not what Apple wants. They make (practically) no money from people
buying more apps.

It’s just a bad user experience they haven’t fixed (hopefully yet). Apple’s
main goal is and will always be selling more devices. That’s how they make
money. If they do sell more devices (as was the case here) it is not in their
best interest to make you jump through hoops.

You fail to understand at a fundamental level what kind of company Apple is.

(By the way, this is not what Apple wants for the simple reason that you
already don’t have to repurchase anything. You can put apps on any and all
devices you control, the problem is just that you have to transfer them using
iTunes – and that’s a train-wreck Apple seems to be unaware of. But it is
possible.)

~~~
drivebyacct2
Having one account = one person = one device is clearly lucrative for Apple.

~~~
arrrg
Again: That was not the issue here. You are lumping another (very real) issue
together with the issue discussed in the post.

------
arthulia
"Deleting" an iCloud account only removes it from the phone, it doesn't delete
the account itself. It's just poorly worded in the UI.

------
gnu8
Why isn't apple making it more clear that it's supposed to be one account per
person? A lot of us technical users are already aware of that, but its clearly
a detail a lot of people miss. Couldn't apple put a slip in the box that says
"make a new account for your kids"?

------
monsieurje
You're absolutely right, I agree. But I thought something like that, what if
you had another account only for use with iCloud etc. and an account for
purchases and to setup other iDevices?

------
tuananh
well you could create an iCloud account for your kid and only add your account
to apple store section.

------
drivebyacct2
Android has the features you're looking for.

~~~
cschep
It doesn't have the main feature of "DAD I WANTED AN IPOD TOUCH"
unfortunately.

~~~
Ygg2
In which case dad needs to learn the important 'Not be a pushover' feature and
stand up to his own kids.

------
BrianPetro
Clearly Steve Jobs understood the customer unlike anyone at Apple currently
does.

------
hnriot
You really can't blame apple for you just being dumb.

Apple did the right thing, they signed in with your username and password and
apple sync'd to the new device.

The only missing family feature is multiple accounts on an iPad, but the
problem you're having is that you shouldn't have given your children your
apple id to set up their devices with...

Like everyone else is telling you, setup your children's devices with their
own iCloud accounts.

