

Legos, spaceships, breasts. - MichaelJW
http://katebachus.com/2012/05/12/legos-breasts-spaceships-12-2/

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amirmc
I don't understand what we should be 'pissed' at.

From a previous article when 'girl Lego' was announced: _"The company embedded
researchers with families around the world, to shadow girls and boys and watch
how they play. Based on this research, it came up with Lego Friends, a line
that features five characters with back stories similar to those of the wildly
popular American Girl dolls._ "[1]

Lego did some actual _research_ and is making something that fits the market
as it is today. Who should we be pissed at and why?

[1] [http://www.npr.org/2011/12/15/143724644/ith-new-toys-lego-
ho...](http://www.npr.org/2011/12/15/143724644/ith-new-toys-lego-hopes-to-
build-girls-market)

~~~
DanBC
Depends how good the research is. But, knowing how much money is in the toy
industry (an eye watering amount, even compared to some tech businesses) I
suppose it's good.

But then just because it's researched doesn't mean it's good. Why do girls now
prefer the narrative form of a previously creative toy? Why do lego blocks
need a back story? Is that something that girls have always wanted; is it
something that's created by changes in society; is it beneficial to girls? Is
it possible harmful to boys to not have the narrative toys? (Although, with
all the ROBOT BATTLE IN SPACE stuff hat lego has done for years I suppose
they're just re-balancing an existing skew).

There's a lot of research about the "princess phase" which is why most toys
for girls are boxed in that disgusting pink - purple combination.

This book is quite good. The biases are clear.

([http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Real-Toy-Story-
Consumers/dp/0552...](http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Real-Toy-Story-
Consumers/dp/0552774065/))

~~~
amirmc
Yup, just because it's researched doesn't mean it was good research (from a
general standpoint). Since this is Lego's 6th attempt at reaching this market,
I'll assume they've tried to take extra care. It's even possible that the work
was done in collaboration with university academics (with peer-reviewed papers
as a result). If it doesn't work, I'm sure they'll figure out what went wrong
and make a 7th attempt in due course.

The questions you pose are excellent research topics in their own right (if
reworded slightly). I really hope there are people out there looking into
them. I remember reading some autism-related research that described how even
newborn babies exhibited male/female differences (very contentious at the time
and I don't know how the field developed).

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rickdangerous1
There is a bigger picture problem here. With the move to cross licensing movie
tie in Lego sets, many kids only experience of Lego is building Pirates of the
Caribean pirate ships, instead of the more engineering focused experiences.
What I'm saying is, even Lego isn't Lego anymore (to a large degree).

~~~
DanBC
I do miss the free form play of Lego. I feel a bit sad that there are so many
special use bricks. But I underestimate the ability of children to play - I'm
confidant that they'll happily turn that boat into something else.

I've been wanting to stock up on Lego kits for when my boy is old enough to
enjoy it. I'd prefer to buy from a real local toy shop.

I want big box sets of mixed bricks; mixed sizes shape and colours. I'd only
need a few kits with plans, the rest I'd prefer to be free-form play.

It's much easier for me to buy this stuff second hand and then wash it than it
is for me to buy it new. I don't think I'm an unusual edge case.

I can buy this stuff online. But I feel a bit sad that local toyshops are
dying. I do tell them what I'm looking for. None of them have offered to order
the stuff in for me.

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yummyfajitas
Here is a question I don't quite understand. We are supposed to "get pissed"
because some children are allowed/encouraged to play with a simpler lego toy
that emphasizes fashion and beauty.

Is it wrong to allow/encourage a child to develop an interest in fashion and
beauty?

I wish the authors of articles like this would state exactly what moral
principle they believe is violated.

~~~
lomegor
Would you be OK if Lego targeted toy for black kids so they can learn how to
plough the fields?

The situation here is similar. It's not exactly wrong that a company decides
to sell two different kinds of toy. What's wrong is the cultural mindset that
dictates that girls should be more interested in fashion and beauty than
engineering (for example).

The moral principle being violated is that men and women are equal. That girls
and boy can grow to be whatever they like. Because when you build different
toys for girls and boys, you are clearly stating otherwise.

~~~
factorial
Did it ever strike you that men and women are not actually the same? I know,
this line of reasoning is not popular among the gender studies-infested crowd,
but it's just biology. There are dolls because girls like to play with dolls,
and not because we force them to play with them. There are differences between
male and female brains, and this is why they prefer different activities. Read
up on science before making your absurd statements.

Yes, girls and boys can grow up to become whoever they like, but most girls
just don't like technology, just as most guys have little interest in playing
with dolls. Blame biology but not society.

~~~
DanBC
> _but most girls just don't like technology_

I'm sympathetic to the idea that there are differences between girls and boys
which drive behaviour. Hormones in adolescence are the clearest example to me.

But then, I used to think that "Girls just don't like chess." It turns out
that this very much depends on the age of the girls. Why do numbers of male
and female chess players start equal, and then drop off as people get older?
It's not related to skill either.

The BBC Radio Four 'popular statistics' programme "More or Less" has a short
segment. (They also ask "Are CEOs worth it?" and come to the conclusion that
payment for CEOs isn't associated with performance of the company).

(<http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01h7cf2#synopsis>)

I don't know if this is downloadable outside the UK. I very much hope so.

> _just as most guys have little interest in playing with dolls._

GI Joe / Action Man?

~~~
factorial
Do they really start out equal? I've played chess for a few years, and all I
know is that it gets quite competitive rather soon. Probably you are referring
to scholastic chess where teachers plunk down chess sets in front of their
pupils and teach them the basics. Sure, pushing wood around is fun for a
while, but there will be the point where you need a lot of tenacity to
continue.

The issue about CEO compensation has absolutely nothing to do with this
argument.

~~~
DanBC
Yes, they start out equal. This is discussing competitive chess from real
chess organisations from the ages of about 8 through to late teens early
twenties.

------
factorial
There's nothing keeping parents from buying the more elaborate LEGO set for
their daughters.

~~~
swa14
There's nothing keeping men from wearing skirts in public either. But most of
us do not do so because of gender differences ingrained in out society.

Identifying yourself by your gender can be harmless and doesn't need to be
detrimental to society or equal treatment. But the premise of the blog is "the
virtues of Legos for teaching math and engineering concepts to children."

If this premise is taken as true, this particular distinction in gender is
harmful to equality of the genders. It's not just that the particular pink set
reinforces certain stereotypes, but also that it's simpler and requires less
abstract thought to put together.

That said; I'm sure the people at lego have done their market research, and
have found that girls (or their mothers) find the "girly" sets more pleasant.
Also the people at the outlet will have their reasons for a "blue isle" and a
"pink isle".

I guess the morale of the story is for the parents. To not let themselves fall
into the trap of the largest common commercial denominator, but to drag your
daughter/son at least once through the "wrong isle" when buying toys in an
unbiased manner.

~~~
factorial
Sadly, the author doesn't understand the "post hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy
and neglects the possibility that boys and girls are simply "wired"
differently. Modern science supports this view as there are significant
differences between the brains of both sexes. If you accept biology as given,
then wouldn't it be "normal" that boys and girls prefer different toys and
children, and that men and women flock into different occupational areas as
adults?

Also, why are those feminists only lamenting the lack of female engineers?
There are many fields that require that kind of analytical thinking, albeit on
lower levels. Heck, why not start a, "Get more girls into plumbing!" campaign?
Of course, the feminists are only after the cushy office jobs.

~~~
lomegor
Please if you are going to say that girls are "wired" differently and that's
what causes the different likes and dislikes of children, back that up with
articles. I have yet to see a study where this had been shown. In fact, I
think you are also falling prey to "post hoc ergo propter hoc", in that
although women and men's brain are different, that does not mean that they
like different toys biologically.

I'm sorry that you group all feminists together, but if you had bother to
search for women in plumbing you would have found a lot of women and men who
call for more women in that area. For example: [http://www.my-
plumber.co.uk/userfiles/file/Winter%20Newslett...](http://www.my-
plumber.co.uk/userfiles/file/Winter%20Newsletter.pdf)

~~~
factorial
Do a Google search on "IT needs more women", make a mental note of the number
of hits you get, and then do a search on "Plumbing needs more women". Please
report back which number is bigger. For extra credit, calculate by which
factor the first claim is more often made online.

~~~
lomegor
Oh, I'm sorry, when you said "only" on your first post I thought you meant
"only", not "more". But of course people are more interested on getting
children interested in engineering. I don't see your point. Do you want your
kids to be plumbers making a minimum salary and having unstable jobs?

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fifteen3
Unfortunately i lost her at Legos. It is LEGO or Lego or lego. There is no
plural form of LEGO.

~~~
michaelcampbell
I think you misspelled "pedantic".

