

Scientists Decry "Flawed" and "Horrifying" Nationality Tests - edw519
http://blogs.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/2009/09/border-agencys.html

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tokenadult
"Mark Thomas, a geneticist of University College London who considers the
Human Provenance program 'horrifying,' contends that even determining a
person’s ancestry--as distinct from nationality--is more problematic than many
believe. 'mtDNA will never have the resolution to specify a country of origin.
Many DNA ancestry testing companies have sprung up over the last 10 years,
often based on mtDNA, but what they are selling is little better than genetic
astrology,' he says. 'Dense genomic SNP data does have some resolution . . .
but not at a very local scale, and with considerable errors.'"

This is a good response to the commercial services that claim to be able to
place people's ancestors to very specific locations in continents that have
been very poorly surveyed for geographically correlated genome variation. (The
worldwide number of well located, well analyzed human genome variant samples
is still shockingly small.) Other forms of investigation would be much more
informative of an asylum-seeker's genuine national origin.

~~~
electromagnetic
Linguistics would offer a near unparalleled way to tell. Linguistic
specialists are used by the police in the UK to locate where hostage takers
(or ransom makers) come from.

IIRC there's 3 categories they can tell on average; where you grew up, where
you lived and where you've lived recently. Basically if you grew up in London,
lived in Manchester and have lived in Scotland for a half-year or so, they'll
know. When compared to police records of hardened criminals this can usually
help them narrow it down to a handful of people, sometimes when a persons
accents are so strong (IE you can locate a specific area of each city) it can
basically get you the person you're dealing with. It then gives negotiators
the upper hand, because they know who they're dealing with and their
behaviours from previous crimes before they've even opened negotiations.

If linguistic specialists can work this well for accents inside the UK, I'm
sure they'll be able to tell if you're lying when you say you grew up in
Somalia to Somali parents, but you're accents indicating you're from Kenya or
Ethiopia. It might not be useful all the time, but it could certainly help add
credence to someone's story and potentially help a refugee with legitimate
claim through faster.

I doubt you'd be able to narrow down regionality through linguistics like you
can in the UK. British accents are usually so strong that they're like prime
colours in language, I've got friends here in Canada who immigrated here when
they were infants, but they've still got a British accent in there. When
you're dealing with adults, the accent is as clear as day even when they've
been in Canada for decades.

~~~
sethg
_If linguistic specialists can work this well for accents inside the UK, I'm
sure they'll be able to tell if you're lying when you say you grew up in
Somalia to Somali parents, but you're accents indicating you're from Kenya or
Ethiopia._

The boundaries between Somalia, Kenya, and Ethiopia were drawn by European
diplomats in the nineteenth century for their convenience. Those boundaries
cut across the territory occupied the ethnically-Somali people themselves, who
(if Wikipedia can be trusted) are traditionally nomadic and who frequently
marry outside their own clans. So if some linguist claimed that he could
identify the origin of a Somali-speaker the way Henry Higgins could trace an
English-speaker, I would be very very skeptical.

~~~
mahmud
_I_ could :-) The borders between Somalia and Kenya is one thing, with
Ethiopia another.

The Kenyan border has always been a no-go zone for most ethnic Somalis. That
area has the highest concentration of Somali minorities, both ethnic and
linguistic. The mainstream Somalis went there after recent famines and some
where relocated there by the government in the 60s and 70s. Previously they
have gone there back and forth in pastoral voyages, but always "returned", or
more accurately, they found other places where the grass was, literally,
greener.

Somali Kenyans (Somali-Sujuu, not recent refugee) are Darood from the North
and North West, and not other Somali tribes from the middle and the south of
the country, closer to Kenya :-) The Sujuu concentrate in Garrise, Mandheere
and Wajeer cities in Kenya. They have funny Somali accents, but they're
considered _proper_ Somalis, since they are mostly Ogaden tribe who are known
for bravery (the recipients of the first air-strike outside of Europe. They
also hold the dubious title of being at war with every colonizing force in
Somalia, simultaneously; Ethiopian Emperor, Great Britain, Italy and France.)

The Ethiopian border with Somali IS, however, arbitrarily drawn. One fifth of
Ethiopia's population are ethnic Somalis.

However, Djibouti is one country that has a Somali population of 60% and
they're happy not to call themselves Somalis.

------
mahmud
I am Somali and it seems like I might not be able to pass this test along with
every Somali-Arab. Neither will Marka people (with mixed Arab, Portuguese and
Persian stocks) or the various Bantu groups in the south, or the small
community of Italian _misiyooni_ , or Zaylici people with Turkish lineage, or
the Punjabis in Kismayo, or the Ashraf tribes who came from Saudi Arabia 200
years ago.

However, Egyptians, Libyans and Berber north Africans will pass with flying
colors.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_people#mtDNA>

Just in my own family, we have people who are half Italian, Emirati, and Thai.

However, Somalis have a fairly secure system for identifying one's lineage. We
know our fathers' names (ignoring infidelity here) for up to 20 names or more;
I can do 39. And then there is the extensive clan system where anyone is able
to name their tribe down to the minutest family name. Ask them "waar
abtirso!", i.e. name your lineage, and any Somali should be able to do so. The
language itself is a sufficient enough cipher; non-Somalis, at least those
from that part of Africa will not be able to pronounce certain sounds, like
Dh, C, X, Kh, and Q.

I am not "visibly" Somali and most Somalis are awed when I speak to them,
however, it just takes a brief moment of mutual introduction then it's all
hugs and kisses.

This is just a case of a private commercial interest pushing an expensive non-
solution to the government. Instead of the cheaper alternative: higher Somali-
British immigration officers, if you're afraid of corruption, higher N
officers and let them perform the vetting process in a secret-vote manner, the
officers are ignorant of each other and it takes (N/2)+1 votes to admit
someone.

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araneae
I think the wording is a bit strong- it's really not _that_ horrifying- but
it's certainly not scientifically sound. It's not like there's a mountain
range surrounding Somalia that has prevented them from interbreeding with
individuals from other countries for the last hundred thousand years. Heck,
the place didn't really even exist until the 1950s.

~~~
electromagnetic
Well it is horrifying, they're planning on refusing people who are immigrating
on humanitarian and compassionate grounds (refugee) based on their DNA.

Warfare doesn't check your DNA before it kills your spouse and children.
Apparently Britain, however, checks your DNA before it decides to save you or
not.

~~~
araneae
So you believe in no immigration restrictions at all then? I think it's
perfectly fair to only admit people into a country if they desperately need
it. They just want a way to identify those people. This is the wrong way to do
it, but that's a separate issue.

------
electromagnetic
Thank god I'm emigrating not immigrating to the UK.

First 'Citizenship Education', I said it then when I refused to take the
course and now; you've got to be fucking stupid. Last time British people were
nationalistic we committed genocide across the Americas, Africa and Australia,
with a few places here and there on the way.

Now the governments gone about ten steps dumber and now believe mitochondrial
and Y chromosomal DNA corresponds to nationality. So when my Canadian
immigration papers come through, where do I go to get my DNA changed? Oh wait,
everyone here's still fucking British! (Aside from Quebec and NB, but you're
likely to pick up as many French Chromosomes in the rest of Canada as you
would in the UK)

------
yuvouv
Should be extended to all British citizens. Then those without British DNA can
be kicked out.

That will get rid of a whole lot of useless <beeps> in the house of Lords with
a 'de', 'le' or 'ville' in their names.

And it will allow a large number of new people in. After a few hundred years
of determined DNA distribution through the empire there must be quite a few
Indians, Africans and even Americans who have some English/Scottish or Irish
in them (or at least their ancestors did !)

~~~
hughprime
I'm not sure that Elizabeth Saxe-Coburg-Gotha would approve of that plan.

~~~
yuvouv
Bloody monarchs, coming over 'ere taking our thrones...

