

Ask HN: College degree required? - stevejobs

I've been browsing job boards for a research project and I come across time and again a requirement for a college degree to land the position.  Yet when I read the description of what the employer wants of its employee it is not clear that one (the degree) has anything to do with the other (the job).<p>For instance, a job posting will typically ask for a candidate (aside from particular work skills) to:<p>-have strong written and communication/verbal skills
-be able work independently and effectively multitask in a fast paced environment with minimal supervision
-professional, extremely well organized, thorough, and detail-oriented
-be proactive (aka go-getter)
-have an analytical/sales/managerial aptitude<p>While a degree may signal some of the above criteria it doesn't follow that the college experience adds to what the student already is capable of by the time he reaches graduation.  If anything college may erode his value to employers by allowing him to skate by on a minimal course schedule whose work product is corroded by grade inflation.  Students are taught that a minimal effort is all that is needed to be rewarded with a decent grade.  In the real world that is decidedly NOT true and subpar performance is the quickest way to get you fired (outside of government).<p>It could be argued that what once was something special and where a college degree signified something important is no longer the case.  For all intents and purposes a college degree doesn't tell you anything about what kind of future employee that person is going to be and if he'll bring the abilities and qualities you want in the job.<p>What is confounding then is why society has placed an ever greater importance on college when its value and worth has declined.  College used to be valuable when access to information was scarce and communicating with and meeting new people was hard to do but the Internet has liberated us.  Now we are overwhelmed with content and spend a good portion of our time on social networks and user forums.  Therefore, the inherent "worth" of college has fallen precipitously even though employers paradoxically have required ever more of us to have such credentials.<p>My answer is that a college degree had conferred unto its recipient an "illusion of competence" whereby employers would take as a given that the graduate was an above average worker and place his resume at the top of the pile, so it "paid" to endure four years of coursework and thousands of dollars in tuition costs to obtain that signal.<p>As students put in the minimal effort necessary to graduate employers find out that graduates are nothing special and the marginal value of a degree declines.  Therefore, the illusion that had held up throughout the 20th century has now been shattered in the 21st leaving employers frustrated with underwhelming candidates and graduates despondent over minimal job prospects and burdened with significant student loans.
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starkfist
What is the question?

The issue I have with the school-is-useless line of thinking is that the
underlying assumption is that the dropout is a Good Will Hunting autodidact
whose genius is confined by the educational system, and is shrewd enough to
realize his educational ROI would be higher if he taught himself.

In reality, dropouts and people who don't go to school are often just people
too stupid, lazy or psychologically messed up to accomplish anything.

The brilliant self-taught definitely exist, but in my experience they almost
never spend time posting to online forums about how school is a waste of time.

This is coming from someone who dropped out thinking he was a genius
autodidact and then went back to school when he realized he was just being
stupid and lazy.

~~~
whopa
The poster's main issue is not that people who didn't go to school are
generally better than people who did, but that people who went to school
aren't generally better than people who didn't. I.e., because of grade
inflation and the trend to not make students do much work, people who went to
school are just as likely to be lazy and stupid as people who didn't. A degree
isn't a signal for anything anymore.

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gdl
You seem to be commiting the common geek error of assuming that people are
generally logical, and that they agree with your basic values. They aren't,
and they don't.

College degrees are demanded, even when irrelevent to the job at hand, because
that is a traditional way of getting better people. Most employers will accept
and follow this as a cultural best practice because they don't have any reason
to spend the time questioning it, and it is so engrained in our society that
it is unlikely to get pushed aside by logic anyway. "College is useful" is as
obvious to most people as is "1 + 1 = 2". If I show you a proof that the
latter is not true, you will assume that the proof is flawed, not your belief.
Most people are like that about most of their beliefs.

I do absolutely agree with you that college degrees are overrated most of the
time. I think that you're overoptimistic about public illusions being
shattered and all that though. The college industry is enormous, both
economically and culturally, and will not go down easily.

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exline
If the position is a entry level position, then there are two options I see
for hiring the person: 1) Based it on his/her education and courses. If they
went to the same school as I did, then I am able to ask about certain
courses/instructors. 2) Based on any projects they have completed on their own
(open source/freelance/personal)

You have to have one or the other. If you don't have either, then I'm going to
choose someone else.

For anything over entry level, I'm looking for work experience.

To answer your question (which is why do companies ask for the a degree) is
that it is used as a filter for them. If you have ever done any hiring, you
will know that you can be flooded by unqualified candidates and its a major
time sink.

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damoncali
If you're looking for people who like to learn and grow, maybe it makes sense
to for them at a school. Just sayin'

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jolan
The only question mark is in the title...

Apply anyway. Most companies will take years of experience over a degree (or
at least some schooling).

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pclark
what question are you asking

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stiggz
School requires you to show up 9-5 monday - friday, take initiative (homework,
projects, etc), and make an effort (debatable). These skills transfer well
into working for any size of company. Self-educated people are great workers,
but they might tend to be lone-wolves, rockstar, or wizard programmers who
work well by themselves but can't hack it in a group of (college educated)
programmers. Software engineering is all about communication, there are tons
of nerds, but nerds who can communicate are a valuable commodity.

