
Amazon announces candidate cities for HQ2 - uptown
https://www.amazon.com/b?node=17044620011
======
chollida1
Nice to see Toronto on the list, though game theory suggest that we're only
here because having a Canadian Candidate has the potential to have all 3
levels of government involved rather than just state and city.

I'm not really sure how to go about handicapping the finalists.

Given the current political climate, Toronto is interesting because it's the
only city that gives Amazon some escape form the US government.

You'd want:

\- an international airport so you can get to Beijing, London, etc on a single
flight. This might eliminate the smaller cities.

\- a strong existing tech workforce and universities.

\- land in the downtown core to build on, this might eliminate New York?

\- perhaps you'd preference the cities that already have an amazon campus in
them.

Toronto has all of these..

Ah, who am I kidding. its going to come down to which government gives them
the most money and that eliminates Toronto.

Would be fun for someone in each city to make a list of what makes your city a
good choice for the headquarters!!

~~~
bryanlarsen
If Canadian cities were in serious competition I think there'd be more than
one of them on the list. There are a good number of American cities smaller
than Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg and Ottawa/Gatineau on the list, let alone
Montreal and Vancouver. I suspect that Toronto is the token Canadian city and
won't get serious consideration.

I don't blame them, in this era of Trump hyper-nationalism there'd be a huge
blow-back for choosing a Canadian city.

~~~
justin66
Toronto might be the token Canadian city, but it's also the strongest
contender Canada has to offer, by far. I would not rule them out.

> I don't blame them, in this era of Trump hyper-nationalism there'd be a huge
> blow-back for choosing a Canadian city.

Ironically, one reason a Canadian city would offer such big advantages -
immigration - is also the main reason for the Trump hyper-nationalism. That
tension is interesting. I don't know to what extent politics plays into this
but teaching American politicians a lesson about whether they _really_ want to
continue playing to the cheap seats on immigration might be a plus for Amazon.

~~~
klipt
And under the Trump administration, I bet a lot of liberal Americans would be
interested in an opportunity to work in Canada and acquire Canadian
citizenship "just in case"...

------
ashelmire
Part of me would love to have a big tech / infrastructure company like Amazon
in Philly. But I take serious issue with the idea of the city paying millions
or billions to bring them here, promising years of tax breaks (a free ride),
and the tightening of an already very tight real estate and rental market. I
don't think my fellow Philadelphians should have to pay to bring a company
here that's just going to hire people who are not currently residents, while
increasing their expenses and utilizing the public services that their taxes
have paid for, while receiving little to no tax revenue or services in return.

~~~
rayiner
The fact of the matter is that cities in the U.S., with respect to each other,
are in a race to the bottom. There is nothing they can do about it: the
Constitution mandates an unrestricted internal market with no barriers to the
free flow of goods and capital between states. That means that companies will
go wherever they can get the best deal, and there is no way for state and
local governments to restrict that movement.

Cities that aren't named New York or San Francisco can either get with the
program, as the southern states have been doing, and benefit from the growth,
or they can resign themselves to moribund economies and irrelevancy. If
they're smart, they'll do what places like Ireland and Switzerland have done,
which is offer low corporate taxes and recover the difference with higher
taxes on individuals.

~~~
rlanday
You're saying two entirely conflicting things here. You're saying "cities in
the U.S., with respect to each other, are in a race to the bottom" (not that
being well-run and having low taxes is a bad thing in my opinion...), and then
you said New York and San Francisco don't have to play along, presumably since
they're competing on value rather than price. I think it's obvious that
Amazon's not looking solely for the cheapest possible city to locate in. I
suspect they were never going to choose Gary, Indiana no matter how sweet the
tax incentives were.

~~~
rayiner
It's like with PCs. HP/Lenovo/Dell/Acer sit between Apple on one hand, and
unlabeled Chinese products on the other. But almost nothing differentiates
them from each other. Customers don't necessarily want the cheapest product,
but for everyone looking at the mid-range product, nobody is going to pay more
for HP versus Dell. And that's reflected in these companies razor-thin profit
margins.

Cities are the same way. Between New York and San Francisco on one hand, and
Gary on the other, there are dozens of perfectly fine cities and the only
reason to pick one versus the other is how good of a tax deal you can get.
Nobody is going to pay a significant tax premium to be in Columbus versus
Raleigh.

------
drumttocs8
Amazon would have the greatest impact in Atlanta. You could argue that Atlanta
is the economic, cultural, and geographical center of the Southeastern United
States. It has the busiest airport in the world and is a major rail hub. There
are already dozens of major corporations headquaratered in Atlanta. There is
no shortage of talent, with a top-5 engineering school in Georgia Tech. Yet
there are things missing which are preventing Atlanta from becoming a modern
powerhouse; strong mass transit is probably the most obvious, and progressive
policies another. This kind of investment by Amazon could be exactly what
Atlanta needs to bring it back to the world stage. The only other city I could
possibly see as being close would be Raleigh, for similar reasons.

~~~
droopybuns
When I saw Atlanta on the list, I felt that it's over. The rail system is far
superior to what exists in Seattle & should support reasonable suburban
commutes. Georgia Tech's talent supply makes it interesting, but I get the
impression that Amazon hires people with more experience than just straight
out of college.

~~~
sf_rob
> The rail system is far superior to what exists in Seattle & should support
> reasonable suburban commutes

Atlanta has a relatively poor transit system compared to many other cities on
the list. The bus system isn't great and MARTA (trains) is quite limited. I
left before the beltline was built out, so maybe things are getting better.

~~~
ynniv
Only the more expensive ones (Chicago, DC, NYC, and Boston), and Philadelphia.
If transit is important, Atlanta is actually in a better position than the
closer competition (Austin or Raleigh).

------
indescions_2018
Just visited Pittsburgh. There is indeed a renaissance happing in that town.
The restaurant scene alone is phenomenal. And the addition of a FANG level HQ
could cement its burgeoning international reputation as a destination.

The idea is that CMU spits out about 200+ world class CS grads a year. If even
5% decide to stay in the area to start their own ventures. There would be
potential for massive growth.

the other data points that shocked me is that the population of Greater
Austin, Texas is now 2.5M souls! I still think of it as a sleepy southern
college town like Athens, GA ;) And that Denver is experiencing a net influx
of 10K people per day!

~~~
planteen
Denver isn't gaining 10K people a day - that would be insane!

This article says 13K people in a year to Denver city & county:
[https://www.denverpost.com/2017/03/28/denvers-growth-
spurt-s...](https://www.denverpost.com/2017/03/28/denvers-growth-spurt-slows-
down/)

It looks like Colorado's population is around 5.7 million with an annual
growth rate of 1.4% - so about 80K people per year for the state.

[http://worldpopulationreview.com/states/colorado-
population/](http://worldpopulationreview.com/states/colorado-population/)

~~~
corpMaverick
Do you know why is housing in Denver so expensive ?

It seems to have good density. Even small towns in Colorado look expensive.

~~~
adventured
Colorado has grown increasingly affluent. It has a GDP per capita above
Australia, Sweden and Denmark. It's a very desirable location to move to.
Simultaneously like a lot of the US, they haven't been building up new housing
inventory very aggressively since the great recession.

~~~
varroa
Partly because most of the builders went under during & after the great
recession. They don't quite need decades to come back, but it definitely
leaves a ripple.

------
southphillyman
> Amazon will work with each of the candidate locations to dive deeper into
> their proposals

Breaking the process into stages like this will create a bidding war where
Amazon can then go to each city government and extract more benefits. I'm
usually against tax payers funding things like this (ie:stadiums) but I still
selfishly want the location to be somewhere in the NYC/Philly/DC corridor.

------
rb808
Its basically most of the major metro areas in North America >500 miles away
from Seattle. Doesn't seem to be cutting it down much.

~~~
jasode
My guess is that Amazon isn't _seriously_ considering all 20 cities equally.

Instead, they privately already have 2 or 3 particular cities in mind and the
other 18 cities are just there for negotiating leverage for the 2 they really
want. The problem is that the cities themselves don't know if they're "really
in contention" or just "disposable chess pieces".

Again, that's just my guess.

~~~
bruceb
I agree. Nobody seriously thinks they are going to pick Miami.

~~~
yohann305
Jeff Bezos grew up in Miami, and his dad is Cuban. Miami has the largest Cuban
(and Cuban-descent) community. If Bezos wants to give back to the place that
made him who he is today, Miami is a solid contender. I know you don't drive a
business with emotions and nostalgia, oh wait... He's already doing it with
Blue Origin, we love you Bezos!

~~~
Pokepokalypse
(note to Bezos: Miami building should be on stilts)

------
Bhilai
I totally support this move by Amazon and Apple. My hope is
Microsoft/Google/Facebook would follow. There is a desperate need for larger
tech companies to move away from Bay Area/Seattle and expand into other cities
which actually may have cheaper housing and where life may not feel such a
challenge, specially for folks with dependents and families.

~~~
jamestimmins
That's why I hope they don't go to the obvious cities that already have high
rents (New York, Austin, Chicago). They could make an enormous, positive
impact on many smaller cities, or could do damage to already expensive ones.

~~~
quacker
> cities that already have high rents (New York, Austin, Chicago)

I was curious about this. I live in Austin, and don't think the rent is
particularly high there. I just wanted some data. Looking at rent prices on
one website in particular ([https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/in/Austin](https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/in/Austin)) and using
Austin as the baseline:

Less expensive candidate cities:

\- Rent Prices in Austin, TX are 43.54% higher than in Columbus, OH

\- Rent Prices in Austin, TX are 40.87% higher than in Indianapolis, IN

\- Rent Prices in Austin, TX are 34.51% higher than in Raleigh, NC

\- Rent Prices in Austin, TX are 26.93% higher than in Pittsburgh, PA

\- Rent Prices in Austin, TX are 24.66% higher than in Newark, NJ

\- Rent Prices in Austin, TX are 18.86% higher than in Dallas, TX

\- Rent Prices in Austin, TX are 9.24% higher than in Atlanta, GA

\- Rent Prices in Austin, TX are 7.51% higher than in Toronto

\- Rent Prices in Austin, TX are 5.29% higher than in Nashville, TN

\- Rent Prices in Austin, TX are 4.49% higher than in Philadelphia, PA

More expensive candidate cities:

\- Rent Prices in Austin, TX are 6.64% lower than in Denver, CO

\- Rent Prices in Austin, TX are 10.82% lower than in Chicago, IL

\- Rent Prices in Austin, TX are 20.41% lower than in Miami, FL

\- Rent Prices in Austin, TX are 26.91% lower than in Los Angeles, CA

\- Rent Prices in Austin, TX are 31.45% lower than in Washington, DC

\- Rent Prices in Austin, TX are 36.17% lower than in Boston, MA

\- Rent Prices in Austin, TX are 49.78% lower than in New York, NY

\- Rent Prices in Austin, TX are 56.44% lower than in San Francisco, CA

Here's a sortable table of various indexes: [https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/region_rankings.jsp?ti...](https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/region_rankings.jsp?title=2018&region=021)

~~~
usaar333
And TX lacks a state income tax, meaning disposable income will actually be
higher in Austin than the numbers above imply.

~~~
i_cant_speel
When a state doesn't have an income tax, doesn't that imply that they're
getting those tax dollars from elsewhere?

~~~
Arzh
Yeah usually from taxes around home ownership. People who rent have this hit
them less.

~~~
dragonwriter
> Yeah usually from taxes around home ownership.

Real property in general, not just homes (and even moreso, not just owner
occupied homes.)

But also can be sales taxes.

> People who rent have this hit them less.

Wrong. Property taxes (even those limited to residential property) hit renters
at least as much as people living in homes they own. Sure, the landlord gets
the tax bill, but that immediately goes into setting rent.

~~~
usaar333
> Wrong. Property taxes (even those limited to residential property) hit
> renters at least as much as people living in homes they own. Sure, the
> landlord gets the tax bill, but that immediately goes into setting rent.

To a degree; see the argument for land value tax which is close:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax#Efficiency](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax#Efficiency)

If the supply of homes are relatively inelastic, the landlords are already
maximizing the rent the market will pay. So they can't pass tax increases on
to renters -- as they are already charging the maximum renters would pay!

(This starts to break down only if new housing is no longer built due to lower
returns or owners devalue their housing to cut taxes)

------
nsx147
Ask for Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill area to build better transportation, and
that's the pick

~~~
bradleyjg
That's a multi-decade project. They should get started now and will be
competitive for whatever the Amazon of 2040 is.

The first step is a backbone rail line that starts in Chapel Hill, runs up to
Duke, then through Durham to RTP, to the Airport, and from there to and
through Raleigh. Then add spurs and spokes to cover the region and funnel
people to the backbone.

Good luck getting the legislature to authorize, much less fund that.

~~~
tamcap
The current airport authority will sadly fight rail at the airport tooth and
nail. I believe they make more money off parking fees than the flight ops.

Moreover, the strongest / largest municipality in the region (Wake/Raleigh)
seems to be the least interested in serious non-road public transport
projects, as they just withdrew from their chunk of the light rail connection
with Durham / CH.

------
wyattk
Something about this just makes my stomach sick... A massive corporation is
pitting governments against each other for its own gain, often to no benefit
of the local population.

I'm scared to see the numbers of "incentives" that local politicians try and
hand out to Amazon. There's little evidence that the public money used/lost
will ever be recouped. One of the worst cases of this happening so far is the
Foxconn deal in Wisconsin that will cost taxpayers around $4.5B [1], and I
feel that numbers for Amazon will dwarf those Foxconn numbers.

The US is far removed from the days of trust busting [2], and keeping massive
corporations (monopolies and oligopolies) and their market distorting effects
in check, for the long-term benefit of the entire economy and the people.
There seems to be a lot of similarities between now and the late 1800s and
early 1900s. We live in a strange time. I get the feeling there will be a
strong resurgence of antitrust cases and similar progressive policies. I'm
curious to see where the near future takes us.

1: [http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-
politics/mem...](http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-
politics/memo-foxconn-cost-to-public-nearing-
billion/article_83a3ab6e-6c7e-553e-ba97-976c9c32fe76.html) 2:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidency_of_Theodore_Rooseve...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidency_of_Theodore_Roosevelt)

~~~
wfo
It is terrifying how this power is being wielded. Cities try to compete to see
who can be more obsequious and subservient to corporate interests in the hope
that they win some "victory" \-- the company moving to their town -- which in
the end does very little for the actual city or the people in it. It is just
an impressive line item on the mayor's resume when they try to move up in
politics, "I got Amazon!"

Seattle hates Amazon and what it has done to the city. They provide nothing
for the city, do nothing to help ameliorate the problems they create, they
overcrowd every area with ultrawealthy out of towners who push actual
Seattleites out of the neighborhoods they've lived in for generations,
replacing local culture with bland silicon valley tech-ennui. And the jobs
they offer aren't even good. They create new white-collar sweatshops in their
office buildings to mirror their blue-collar sweatshops in the warehouses.

If they are paying attention, people in all of these cities should be praying
to god that Amazon doesn't choose their city. If they can, they should
protest, riot, refuse to let it happen.

If you want a left-wing prospective on this general issue (which is called
"lotteryism") there's a great podcast that does media analysis on this and
issues like it. As it turns out, for example, reporting describing the
supposed 'benefits' Amazon could bring to a city are literally copied without
attribution or further investigation from Amazon press releases. There is a
reason Jeff Bezos bought a huge newspaper, and it's not charity.

[https://soundcloud.com/citationsneeded/lotteryism-part-i-
how...](https://soundcloud.com/citationsneeded/lotteryism-part-i-how-the-rich-
manipulate-the-press-to-divide-us)

~~~
closeparen
TIL software engineers aren’t actual residents of the places we live.

~~~
biocomputation
TIL software engineers think it's okay to participate in the economic and
social destruction of neighborhoods in which people have lived for decades.

~~~
closeparen
Young adults necessarily occupy space in a way that hasn’t yet been
legitimized by the passage of much time. Populations that need to work for a
living must go where there is work. Many of the consequences of this set of
facts are dire and inhumane, and responsible public policy manages their
impacts as best it can. A world with no new households is one that has stopped
reproducing. A world where people are confined to their economically depressed
birth cities is another kind of dystopian hellhole.

Half of this wouldn’t even matter if we let housing become a positive-sum
game.

~~~
biocomputation
You could always refuse to participate in the social and economic destruction
of communities by simply not working at places that have a disproportionate
impact on the surrounding community.

Yes, it's that easy!

<< A world where people are forced to leave their community of origin because
rich tech workers can outbid them for housing is another kind of dystopian
hellhole.

Fixed that for you.

~~~
closeparen
The size of your employer has nothing to do with your contribution to housing
demand. A million employees of two-person startups have the same effect as a
million Googlers, assuming similar budgets.

~~~
biocomputation
Interesting argument strategy. You pose something that will never happen in
Seattle (a million employees of two-person startups) with something that
actually has happened (Amazon).

If you're a transplant who works for Amazon, then it's because of a choice.
You came from somewhere where you lived in a community with people you knew
and who knew you. You don't need to be in Seattle.

People who are from Seattle need to live in Seattle. A lot of us don't want to
leave our families or watch while our communities (or surrounding) communities
are destroyed by waves of outsiders who know nothing about the area and who
are only here for career/money.

Is that so hard to understand? How much should we have to accommodate? How
many people? Should we sit idly by while people drive us out of our own
neighborhoods?

Sorry, that's not going to happen.

~~~
closeparen
>You came from somewhere where you lived in a community with people you knew
and who knew you

Sure. College, which ends. After that, returning to your hometown is only
possible if you're privileged enough to be born somewhere with a decent local
economy, and even then, chances are you'll be moving from family-oriented
suburbs to an "up-and-coming" urban neighborhood with other young adults...
same set of issues. Or you got priced out of the Bay Area, or your hometown's
economy finally shrank to below the level where it can sustain you, etc.

> A lot of us don't want to leave our families or watch while our communities
> (or surrounding) communities are destroyed by waves of outsiders who know
> nothing about the area and who are only here for career/money.

There is nothing an American city can do to privilege its natives relative to
other Americans. Privileges and Immunities Clause. What you _can_ do is rent
control + plan and zone for growth so that it's an increase in population,
instead of a displacement.

------
robbiemitchell
NYT walked through a process of elimination and concluded it will be Denver.

[https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/09/09/upshot/where-...](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/09/09/upshot/where-
should-amazon-new-headquarters-be.html)

~~~
nosequel
I was happy to see that Denver pitched Amazon with talent and not tax
incentives [1]. I think most in Colorado would be perfectly happy if Denver
didn't win and would be very unhappy if Denver won by giving tax breaks.

\- [1] [https://www.denverpost.com/2017/10/18/amazon-headquarters-
co...](https://www.denverpost.com/2017/10/18/amazon-headquarters-colorado-
pitch/)

~~~
illegalsmile
I live in CO but not front range and the front range population impacts the
entire state from natural resources to transportation and recreation. When it
comes down to it I would be OK if Denver didn't win though at the same time
feel as if that's squandering growth and cool things for my own personal
gains. Ultimately if Amazon adds 25-50K population to the front range that's a
drop in the bucket of the already ~4.4M citizens living there.

When you deliberately choose not to live in a city and that city has impacts
both near and far that affect you it's tough to want them to grow much
especially considering their already large problems.

~~~
gizmo385
> Ultimately if Amazon adds 25-50K population to the front range

I think that if Amazon moved out here, the ultimate increase in population
would be a lot more than the 50k potential hires that Amazon is advertising on
the tin. That also creates a ton of jobs in the surrounding areas for the
various amenities that people working at Amazon can afford, and you need
people to work those jobs.

------
femto113
My money is on one of Nashville, Indianapolis or Columbus with Pittsburgh as a
dark horse.

Amazon is going to be looking to build a major campus (say 5-10 big buildings)
right in the center of town (as they've done here in Seattle) and that's just
not feasible in expensive cities like LA, Boston, NYC, Chicago or DC. Denver
is too far west, Miami, Atlanta and Raleigh too far southeast. Newark and
Philadelphia don't have a sufficiently developed tech scene and as satellites
of NYC have a price premium. There's no way Seattle and Dallas are going to
form a family, Austin looks great on paper but I doubt they're hungry enough
to offer sufficient incentives. Don't know why Montgomery County or Northern
Virginia are even on this list.

~~~
chao-
_> There's no way Seattle and Dallas are going to form a family_

What does that mean? My top five (unordered) guesses are Raleigh, Dallas,
Pittsburgh, Toronto and Columbus.

~~~
femto113
Boeing contemplated it but decided on Chicago instead. I think it's a cultural
thing, the cities have very different and not particularly compatible
personalities. Anecdotally in I've never known anyone choose to leave Seattle
for Dallas, and Amazon is going to have to convince hundreds if not thousands
to do just that.

~~~
chao-
_> the cities have very different and not particularly compatible
personalities_

That was my read of the GP post as well, but it strikes me as odd. I have
lived in both cities, and while I agree they have differences, I don't see
that being fatal flaw to a business having a headquarters in each?

One could make same "different personality from Seattle" point for about half
of the cities on the list. Consequently my interpretation is that it is one of
the factors they are looking for, not one they are avoiding.

------
swerling
From wsj.com:

"...some site-selection experts to speculate Mr. Bezos may choose a location
where an influx of workers could help promote political change..."

Playing with that notion.

Premise: 50k tech workers would have more impact on US politics if: 1) added
to U.S. cities; 2) added to cities in states with smaller populations.
(Debatable premise(s), but just go with it).

Below is trimmed down version of the original list of 20 with that in mind,
sorted by lowest population. Cities in states where 50k would be < 0.40% of
the population were cut (eg. 50k in florida would only be 0.25%).

    
    
      Place:  50k/State Pop (as %)
      ------------------------------------------
    
      Denver: 1.00%
      Nashville: 0.77%
      Northern Virginia: 0.63%
      Atlanta: 0.50%
      Raleigh: 0.50%
      Columbus: 0.45%
    

(50k would be about 7.35% of Washington DC, which I edited out, but put back
in after seeing a reply to this post)

(list of cities and quote above from [https://www.wsj.com/articles/amazon-
narrows-choices-for-seco...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/amazon-narrows-
choices-for-second-headquarters-to-20-1516284607))

~~~
maxerickson
Electorally DC is less relevant to national politics than any house district
(I was replying as you trimmed DC from your list).

Which would be the next unit to analyze, as the statewide population doesn't
impact house elections all that much.

~~~
swerling
Sorry about that. Put it back in the post under the list.

~~~
maxerickson
I wasn't bothered about it, your comment was new still, adding that was the
laziest way of making the sentence still make sense.

------
dmode
Please please pick Toronto. My immigrant future in the US is still uncertain
after being here for 12 years. Would be great if Canadian tech ecosystem gets
a boost so that I and countless others in my position have options

~~~
jamestimmins
This could also be great for immigration in the US, as it is an obvious
economic argument for the importance of reform.

------
onychomys
I'm surprised to see Miami make the list, since they're going to have so much
work to do over the next 50 years to deal with rising sea levels. I'm not at
all sure that the city will still exist in its modern form in 2050, and surely
Amazon is planning that far out too.

~~~
rainbowmverse
Maybe they see an opportunity to be the first major tech company with a
headquarters powered by tidal generation.

------
rcchen
Oof unfortunate that Detroit missed the cut, wonder why that happened; they
seemed reasonably competitive from an outsider's perspective.

~~~
wafflesraccoon
I assume Detroit has a lot of the same problems that St Louis has, they are
both great little cities with an up and coming tech industry but hiring
skilled talent and conniving them to move to the area is a nightmare.

~~~
maxerickson
Oakland county to the north of Detroit and Washtenaw county to the west of
Detroit are two of the wealthiest, most highly educated counties in the
country.

And the cities surrounding Detroit have a lot less problems than the city
itself.

~~~
ghaff
I think the parent's point still probably stands. Wherever they end up,
assuming there really is a 50K HQ2 in the end, they have to convince a lot of
people to relocate. And a lot of people would be: 1.) Detroit, no thanks or
2.) I can live with Detroit but when I end up leaving Amazon after 2 years
like so many people do, I'd have to find a job in a different location. I
imagine the talent question at least factored in--schools in the general area
notwithstanding.

~~~
maxerickson
My point is that the problem is largely one of perception.

The hundreds of thousands of people in the area with technical educations
aren't working at McDonald's.

~~~
s73ver_
"My point is that the problem is largely one of perception."

That very well might be true, but that's Detroit's problem to fix, not
Amazon's. Amazon doesn't want to have to deal with that; they want a place
that they can get people to come to day 1.

~~~
maxerickson
Of course. Note that my first comment is literally pushback against the poor
perception...

------
lurker10000
If you haven't seen this yet, this gambling site has Atlanta, GA / Boston, MA
/ Austin, TX as the top three choices for HQ2.

[http://www.paddypower.com/bet?action=go_type&ev_type_id=2271...](http://www.paddypower.com/bet?action=go_type&ev_type_id=22711)

~~~
BoiledCabbage
The cumulative odds on this site add up to larger than 100%.

Austin (3:1) - 25% | Boston (3:1) - 25% | Atlanta (3:1)- 25% | DC (10:1) - 9%
| Pitt (10:1) - 9% | Nyc (12:1) - 7.5% | Toronto ( 14:1) - 6%

We're already at greater than 100% (106.5%). And there are 13 more cities with
>= ~5% chance. It's pretty tough to have any faith in this site or their odds.

Could've been an interesting data point to look at though.

~~~
TheCoelacanth
Bookies have to eat. They are never going to give perfectly fair odds because
then they don't make any money.

Also NB: The odds don't reflect the bookie's opinion of what the real outcome
will be. They reflect the bookie's opinion of gamblers' willingness to bet on
each option. The bookie is trying to get the odds-adjusted amount bet on each
option to be as close to equal as they can manage. That way, no matter what
the outcome is, they can just take the money paid by the losers give some of
it to the winners and then keep what is leftover for themselves.

------
empath75
If it doesn’t end up somewhere on the silver line in northern Virginia, I’ll
eat my hat.

Plenty of housing, transit straight to the city or an international airport,
convenient access to the nations capital for lobbying, in the middle of us-
east-1, a large population of tech workers, lots of local universities, right
in the middle of the east coast...

~~~
harryh
And Jeff Bezos recently bought a $23M home in DC.

CEO residence location is a strong predictor of where businesses set up shop.

I also think it's telling that 3 of the 20 listed cities are DC + DC suburbs.

------
gshakir
Three candidate cities are in the same metro area (DC).

* Montgomery county, MD

* Northern Virginia

* Washington DC

~~~
wonderwonder
I think this is politically smart and that one of these 3 will end up being
the winner. The current US administration is very anti amazon. It is a little
tougher for politicians and staff to publicly bash a company when 50k of their
employees live and work in the same zip code.

~~~
cphoover
This logic doesn't hold up. Trump bashes us Washingtonians/Marylanders all the
time. And the feeling is mutual back at him with a large large majority of the
population.

------
JoeDaDude
Philadelphia made the list, but they also pitched three separate locations [1]
within the city. It is not clear if all 3 are under consideration or if one or
more of the locations has been ruled out.

[1]
[http://www.philly.com/philly/business/real_estate/commercial...](http://www.philly.com/philly/business/real_estate/commercial/the-
three-sites-philly-is-pitching-to-amazon-20170915.html)

~~~
gist
Navy Yard makes sense since then there is also property that is cheap across
the river in Camden and Southern NJ. Easy to get there over the bridge as well
and there is public transit should people decide to live across the river.

------
scioto
Please, not Austin. Austin is full. Not enough water for the current
population. At least one local park requires a waiting list to get in, and you
can only spend a half day there. Mass transit is a joke. Commutes are
terrible. Go away.

------
ForrestN
It's interesting how little culture figures in to this conversation. It seems
to me that the North and the South (Canada aside) are drastically different in
ways that will really matter to a lot of people. I don't work at Amazon, but
my family and I would not feel fully safe or comfortable living in Texas,
Tennessee, Georgia or North Carolina.

~~~
gizmo385
> my family and I would not feel fully safe or comfortable living in Texas,
> Tennessee, Georgia or North Carolina

I'm a little surprised by this. You wouldn't feel safe? Why not?

~~~
stevenwoo
The fear of other or whatever one wants to call it is pretty strong in rural
areas, regardless of state, there just happen to be a lot more rural people in
those states as reflected in the state legislative/executive results - anti
gay, anti trans gender, anti immigrant laws in most of those states made the
news the past few years. Those type of laws don't affect me, but I can see how
if someone were affected by them or knew someone affected by them they would
see those laws as announcements of intolerance for them or their loved ones.
On the other hand if one is in favor of those type of laws, that might be an
incentive to move there.

------
CodeSheikh
My money is on Vriginia particularly Loudoun county. Amazon AWS data centers
are already there. Many other data center vendors are moving in hords. Land is
cheap and in abundance there. VA allows easy access to eastern and southern
states. People who want to work for Amazon would move eventually. Major metro-
city is not going to happen.

UPDATE: Spelling mistake

------
jrs95
Columbus definitely seems like an underdog here but it could be one of the
best options on this list. Great talent pool coming out of Ohio State, young
people are already moving here, the local economy is doing great, and real
estate is still very cheap compared to the national average and many other
cities on this list.

It seems like the lack of nonstop flights to Seattle is the only real downside
to it. But that's something I would think could almost certainly be fixed
before the new campus was even finished.

~~~
theandrewbailey
I wouldn't be surprised if Amazon has accounts with every major airline. If
Amazon wants a daily flight between Seattle and wherever, I'd imagine that
some airlines would trip over themselves. I think flights are among the
easiest issues to fix.

------
rpiguy
It seems interesting that Amazon is not terribly concerned with the cost of
labor. Several cities and states on that list have very high labor costs
(Boston, New Jersey, etc.)

Good to see they are more concerned with talent and infrastructure rather than
just bottom line costs.

~~~
s73ver_
It's already known what Amazon pays. I don't care where I'm located, they had
better be paying me at least that well.

~~~
rpiguy
That’s not how labor markets work. Amazon engineers in Boston and Seattle will
certainly be paid more on average than engineers from Pittsburgh or Atlanta.

~~~
s73ver_
Why not? I mean, if they can't get people to work for less wages, they have to
offer higher ones.

~~~
rpiguy
There is less competition for talent in smaller markets like Pittsburg, so
they get paid less. Also an engineer in Pittsburg, for example, would usually
be okay getting paid less, because housing is cheaper by a factor of 5 than
Silicon Valley and his or her overall cost of living will be much lower.

It is supply and demand. People in highly competitive labor markets like
Silicon Valley or Seattle will get a geographic differential. People in less
competitive markets will get paid, but also enjoy a lower cost of living.

If you live in one of those less competitive areas and asked to be paid like
someone in Silicon Valley, you better be rock star, nine times out of ten it
will not happen.

------
dustinmoorenet
Please don't come to Austin. There are enough of us new people here.

~~~
chrisco255
Would love to have Amazon here but Austin badly needs infrastructure.

~~~
tbirrell
I would hate to have amazon here. I don't need my rent to go up or my commute
to get longer.

------
hinkley
It amuses me to think of what will happen to Amazon’s neurotic overworking
culture if their other HQ in Miami or Denver.

I can’t see amazon casting a big enough cultural shadow to change those cities
instead of those cities changing them.

~~~
hbosch
Hm. I have always thought of Seattle and Denver having equally blue-leaning,
outdoorsy, marijuana-legalizing, progressively-led cities. What are the
cultural differences between them that you're thinking of?

~~~
pdelbarba
The outdoors are extremely accessible here in Denver. The culture here is very
strongly in favor work/life balance since everyone hauls ass out into the
mountains every Friday afternoon.

~~~
BookmarkSaver
That's basically how it is in Seattle.

------
asciimo
I'm disappointed that Detroit isn't on the list. My money is on Nashville or
Denver. Hm... I wonder if how hard it would be to set up a decentralized
blockchain pool to wager on the winner...

~~~
brohoolio
The Metro-Detroit area voted down a public transit system a year or two ago.
Public transit was one of the requirements that Amazon laid out.

~~~
astrodust
A more progressive Amazon would _build_ public transit. The robber-baron
companies used to wholesale reshape society to fit their vision. It's almost
disappointing Amazon doesn't try.

------
frgtpsswrdlame
What's the point of announcing your candidate cities? Seems like it's only
there so that the two or three cities they're really considering have to throw
loads of tax breaks at them.

~~~
crispyambulance
So the leadership in all the cities falls over themselves to bend over the
most for Amazon? Amazon will play them off each other use the offers to
leverage the city or cities they "really" want.

I think folks are expecting too much from Amazon.

The cities are hoping for an influx of taxpayers with big incomes, but what
will really happen is that Amazon will simply build a campus, the bulk of the
"tech workers" will live in a wide swath of exburbs around the city. The
commuters will stress the transportation infrastructure of the city and the
"tax breaks" will greatly limit the actual benefits the cities see.

Of course even that is contingent on the whims of Amazon. They're soliciting
solemn proposals that fork over a lot of benefits and promises. Whereas on the
Amazon side, they could change their minds before even building the facility--
or just build a much smaller facility, or build several much much smaller
facilities in several cities, all of which leverage the "highest bidder"
benefits.

I don't believe them and I don't believe the "50000" jobs number. It is too
round a number that seems like it was dreamed up by a PR goon. And what is the
point of an HQ2 anyway? Isn't ONE HQ enough? How many HQ's does a company need
in one country?

------
dude01
I could swear I read that the EU does not allow this kind of bidding war for
tax reduction by companies, but I can't find it online. The US certainly
allows it, which I think is a bad idea.

~~~
lolsal
Why?

~~~
dude01
Assuming Amazon is going to create an HQ somewhere in America, consider the
two situations: 1) Current situation, they will eventually get a very large
tax cut from wherever they select. 2) Hypothetical situation: local tax breaks
are not allowed, Amazon selects a location and pays the local taxes that it
avoided in situation #1.

~~~
lolsal
You think small governments (states, or cities being 'small') having autonomy
over how they tax themselves is a bad thing?

There are more than two situations, or you're over-simplifying the effect of a
massive company like Amazon moving to a city.

A 'tax cut' does not mean they are contributing $0 to the local economy. I
would guess (I'm not a city planner or anything like that) the overall
economic impact of such a move vastly offsets any tax breaks offered (even if
that means there are less taxes being given directly to those governing
bodies).

~~~
meddlepal
The European mindset to everything seems to be regulate, regulate and regulate
some more.

------
hosh
I remember reading an article earlier in the year talking about how (1) No
city is going to have every characteristic Amazon was asking for so (2) this
is really about how much the city is willing to work with Amazon in long-term
development plans.

From that perspective, some of the cities isn't surprising. For example, I
grew up in Columbus, OH and I know that one of the AWS regions is located in
the greater Columbus area. The airport is international but it is is not a
major hub like Atlanta. When I lived in Seattle, I remember locals there
complaining about the transit system -- yet it is way better than what
Columbus has.

I do know that, Columbus is probably willing to change things about its city
to accomodate Amazon. Not just in terms of tax credits, but likely extending
all the way out to municipal and regional planning.

The same could be said about the other cities -- Austin, Newark, etc.

~~~
stevenwoo
Austin has one rail line and buses - what solution could they come up for mass
transit?

~~~
hosh
Columbus has zero rail lines and busing is anemic.

It is a rust-belt metropolis with some world-class research facilities, (OSU,
Ohio Supercomputing Center, Battelle, Chemical Abstracts), a lot of banking
(Bank One had its headquarters there before Chicago First bought them out, and
there is still a huge IT presence). Columbus is often a test market to try new
product lines -- it is large enough and _boring_ enough.

Amazon coming in with an HQ would inflect the whole metropolitan area.
Everything in Columbus right now pivots around the Ohio State University and
the network of research centers, but that center of gravity will probably
shift to Amazon if they come in. That is, Amazon would have a huge say in how
they want the city to be developed.

As for rail: One thing from Atlanta's playbook: create greenspaces out of old
rail right-of-way. Some of those may be converted into light rail. Columbus's
High St. (the central corridor running down the spine of the city) used to
host a trolley line. It's been the target of gentrification, from the Downtown
core, through the Short North, and into the OSU campus area. Restoring a light
rail line there is not out of the picture, particularly if it is extended to
the airport.

I only know all of this because I grew up there, and my 6th grade social
studies course was on Ohio history. That is local knowledge.

I don't know whether Austin can do anything, but I'm pretty sure there are
some unique local features that can be just as much of an advantage, things
that the locals know but is not so apparent for anyone else.

I still think it has a lot more to do with how willing the city is to have
their development plan influenced by Amazon more than anything.

------
tabeth
I feel as though there are too many cities. I'd be curious to know what the
top 5 are. My picks, in no particular order:

\- Boston

\- Dallas

\- Atlanta

\- Chicago

\- Denver

In all likelihood it'll be Boston or Denver.

~~~
xefer
The location the Boston group has proposed for Amazon is the Suffolk Downs
race track site on the East Boston - Revere town line. Perhaps with all the
Amazon building the area would improve, but the place feels like a wasteland
right now.

It's on the other side of Logan airport so there's a lot of airport service
infrastructure around. There is a huge field of fuel tanks, big box stores and
highways. It's also very cut-off from the city proper. There's no way to get
to downtown Boston without going through the harbor tunnel and dealing with
the associated airport traffic.

If might be interesting if they could build some sort of bridge directly over
the Chelsea River into Chelsea.

~~~
ghaff
East Boston, Revere, Chelsea. That whole swath north of the airport up the
coast is sort of a combination of industrial sites and working class
neighborhoods (until you reach the swanky areas of the North Shore which are
very swanky). It's technically connected to the city and has a T link but
you're right that it's not "in the city." I think you can walk to Winthrop
from there though so it's not a total wasteland but it is sort of disconnected
from the city proper.

------
runevault
With how bad traffic/congestion is right now (in spite of our light rail/bus
infrastructure) I'm surprised Denver is in the top 20. Especially since last
by my understanding the city was offering a less rich incentive package than a
lot of the other cities.

~~~
planteen
I'd say the congestion in Denver is less than Atlanta, DC, and Boston. Those
cities are all front runners as well.

~~~
runevault
Having not lived in those areas I can't say. The important question is how
capable are they of alleviating the issues? Denver right now has a massive
problem where they can't really seem to do much to lower congestion.

------
techwizrd
I'm hoping it'll be northern Virginia or Washington, D.C. We already have
Amazon stuff here and plenty of tech companies in Tysons Corner, Reston,
Herndon, etc. and plenty of universities in close proximity so it wouldn't be
a huge stretch.

~~~
JPKab
Used to live there. Inflated salaries courtesy of Federal govt and
contractors, and talent pool looks bigger on paper than reality. Govt
contracting incentivizes overstaffed projects with slow pace and awful tech.
Who wants to work at Amazon for 90k when you can have an easy govt contracting
job for 150k that is strictly 9 to 5?

Plus, northern VA has awful traffic and high cost of living. Traffic jam on
Saturday morning is a thing in the burbs there.

------
sjg007
I was hoping the Twin cities would get a nod. Maybe it could still happen if
Amazon buys Target. Denver makes a lot of sense. It's a nice place for
executives to live, not far from ski resorts which makes the winter bearable.
Los Angeles would be great too but traffic is a nightmare. It might make sense
for them to be close to Hollywood as well. You'd want to be in the South bay
since anyone with money will want to live near the beach.

~~~
ellisv
> Maybe it could still happen if Amazon buys Target.

I was going to say that I could never see that happening but then I remembered
they bought Whole Foods.

------
cuhaos
Bombardier is selling 152 hectare Aircraft manufacturing facility [1] in
Toronto with a brand new transit station adjacent to the property.

Amazon could build quite the campus on that much land.

[1] [http://business.financialpost.com/pmn/business-
pmn/bombardie...](http://business.financialpost.com/pmn/business-
pmn/bombardier-puts-toronto-aerospace-facility-in-downsview-up-for-sale)

------
jedanbik
Direct connection from RDU to SEA as of 2015:
[https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2015/10/01/alaska-...](https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2015/10/01/alaska-
airlines-seattle-rdu-flight-russell-wilson.html)

For Amazon's decision, NC politics probably take points away, but right to
work probably adds points in favor.

------
EADGBE
I'm so glad Kansas City wasted all that time pandering [1] to them. I bet Sly
really thought he'd make a dent. Absolutely not surprised though.

Oh well, same old same old. Look at all the dots on the edges.

[1]
[http://www.kansascity.com/news/business/article180878701.htm...](http://www.kansascity.com/news/business/article180878701.html)

~~~
jessaustin
Oooh... the cringe is strong. (EDIT: this refers to Mayor Sly's actions in
your link, not to your comment!) Realistically, KC doesn't have an
international airport. It's a fine _national_ airport, because it's easy to
get close to your gate really quickly, and there's a pretty complete set of
connections to the West and many parts of the East. To fly internationally,
however, requires a layover at O'Hare. One doesn't see KC competing for
something like this without being a bit more connected to the world.

~~~
EADGBE
Hey, but we've got some deal in the works for nonstops to Iceland! (tongue-in-
cheek). [1]

I really didn't intend to get high and mighty on my Midwest horse.

Also, I don't know how well you know the airport situation, but they're
really, really trying to work on it. [2] Honestly I'm not sure where they're
at in the process though, there's been some hiccups.

[1]
[https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/news/2018/01/09/kansa...](https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/news/2018/01/09/kansas-
city-international-airport-iceland-flight.html)

[2]
[https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/todayinthesky/...](https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/todayinthesky/2017/11/08/they-
voted-yes-kansas-city-get-new-1-billion-airport-terminal/844622001/)

~~~
optimuspaul
I'm disappointed how few midwest cities there were. Minneapolis and St Louis
would be excellent cities that have great tech scenes and plenty of room for
growth. I do think that Austin and Nashville are great choices as well, but
most of the rest seem silly to me.

------
patrickxb
I think travel between HQ and HQ2 has to be a nonstop flight for it to be
viable.

The cities sorted by number of nonstops to Seattle per day:

Los Angeles 23 Denver 18 Chicago 14 Dallas 12 Washington, D.C. 7 Atlanta 6
Newark 6 New York 6 Boston 5 Austin 3 Nashville 2 Philadelphia 2 Raleigh, N.C.
2 Indianapolis 1 Toronto, Canada 1 Miami 1 Columbus 0 Pittsburgh 0 Montgomery
County, Md. ? Northern Virginia ?

~~~
nsnick
Pittsburgh has flights to Seattle.
[https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/todayinthesky/...](https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/todayinthesky/2017/11/15/alaska-
airlines-adds-pittsburgh-its-route-map/867625001/)

Also, Northern Virginia is the location of Dulles. Montgomery county would
also use Dulles or BWI which has 3 flights per day. Interestingly, with
traffic, Washington D.C. is not within 45 minutes of Dulles so Washington D.C.
is probably just looking at Reagan which has 1 flight per day to Seattle.

~~~
apcragg
The silver line will to IAD will be open by the time HQ2 is being built. That
puts it ~35mins by Metro when leaving the city. IAD is a huge international
airport as well and has much smoother infrastructure than National Airport.

------
sideband
Amazon could only benefit from having multiple state and municipal governments
in competition within any general metro area that they are seriously
considering. I think it's a bit telling that Washington, D.C., Montgomery
County in Maryland and "Northern Virginia" are all on the list, as well as
both Newark and New York City.

------
md2be
Imagine if Amazon single handedly turned Staten Island into Brooklyn

------
hprotagonist
on realpolitik grounds, Indianapolis would be a fascinating choice.

~~~
opportune
The main problem with some of these cities, Indianapolis in particular, is
that it might be hard to attract software developers to go live there. Even
though the dollar goes farther in Indianapolis, after adjusting for cost of
living, you would still need to add a bonus to entice developers to live there
rather than Seattle. I grew up near Indianapolis and I certainly would not
live there over Seattle, for political/cultural preferences that in my
experience most developers share with me

~~~
rubidium
It depends. It would be a beacon for all software developers from the midwest.
Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Ohio and Indiana all have solid state schools with
some of the better CS programs (top 25) in the nation.

For all the home-grown developers, many would prefer to stay close to home
than have to move to the mad-house of the coasts. In other words, I question
that most developers would think the same way you do.

~~~
selectodude
They all go to Chicago, though, and I think they would prefer to continue
doing so.

------
megaman22
I'm kind of surprised none of the old upstate NY tech cities are on this list.
Syracuse or Rochester, maybe?

~~~
tchock23
Yeah - I was bummed/surprised about this. Untapped pools of well educated (and
loyal) tech workers, low cost of living, no significant infrastructure issues,
easy driving access to major cities - there is a lot Amazon could have taken
advantage of here...

------
saalweachter
I wonder if New York is just New York City, or New York Metropolitan region. I
guess including Newark makes the latter unlikely, but with IBM shuttering a
chunk of its operations here, the Hudson Valley is full of empty IBM office
parks and desperate local governments, while close to infrastructure.

~~~
52-6F-62
How far is Newark from the old Bell labs. Didn't that building just undergo
renovations and is starting to house some tech companies?

As much as I'd like to see Toronto happen, if I was being on the decision
panel for that, the old Bell labs building would be mighty tempting for
completely selfish reasons.

~~~
gjmarsh
Not sure which Bell Labs. Newark is ~30 min both by car and train during Rush
from Murray Hill... which is in the Middle of some of the nicest suburbs in
the state. The other you might be talking about is Holmdel. Thats at least an
hour down the GSP and I think train would be at least that.

~~~
52-6F-62
Sorry, I meant Holmdel. Interesting, thanks.

------
cephaslr
After reading these comments it makes me realize just how limiting
transportation is and how big of a drag it is.
Austin/Boston/DC/Atlanta/Denver/others are all great locations with
transportation issues. Even some of the more rural locations such as RDU would
quickly fill up with 50k new tech workers join the existing the two-lane
highways. It seems like the best solution currently is the Apple/Google wifi
buse with 90 minute 1-way commute part of your workday.

The highway system itself is an innovation from the 50's and (In My Humble
Opinion) lack of continued innovation on the US transport system since has
significantly contributed to the loss of US technical/economic leadership
since then.

~~~
cannonedhamster
This is why I'm hoping it doesn't end up in Boston proper. Traffic is already
unbearable for a large chunk of the state during rush hours.

~~~
leggomylibro
I'm not even sure how Boston wound up in the running.

I love the city, but it's experiencing a biotech boom and already has crazy
expensive real estate, issues with crowding/traffic, all that jazz. The city
would _HATE_ it, even more than Seattle did. And let me tell you, the
ostracization in Seattle is extremely painful. I don't think it would turn out
to be a good working environment.

I guess it has a lot of educational institutions, but honestly, in its
position, I'd sort of expect a company like Amazon to want to start getting
more involved in educational outreach themselves.

~~~
chipgap98
The plot of land they are offering in Boston is Suffolk downs. So its outside
of Boston proper, has a ton of space, is right on the T, and has easy access
to Logan airport. Plus its proximity to schools you pointed out and its tech
scene make it appealing.

I actually think Boston has a decent chance, along with Denver, Atlanta, and
DC.

~~~
ghaff
Ah right. I don't live in the city so I hadn't really kept up with
developments after the bid for a casino location there was rejected a few
years ago. Presumably, if that was a legitimate bid at least someone thought
you could move a lot of people in and out of the area. Traffic still isn't
great around there but, yeah, you're right on the Blue Line (which is... OK I
guess) and you're practically next door to the airport.

If it happened, good luck if you've been living in East Boston because it's
relatively cheap, albeit somewhat gentrifying.

~~~
MrFoof
> _I hadn 't really kept up with developments after the bid for a casino
> location there was rejected a few years ago_

That casino is actually now under active construction, and has been for about
a year (if not longer). Though it's much further south in Everett.

~~~
ghaff
Yeah, I meant the Suffolk Downs location bid, not the casino project overall.
(Unfortunately.)

------
maxfurman
No big surprises here, but I'm glad to see Philly is still in the running.

------
Rotor
Los Angeles (i.e. Hollywood) could be a strategic move given Amazon's massive
push in original series and programming via Amazon Studios. Also, shares a
coast with Seattle.

~~~
JAFTEM
They would also have a monopoly on CS grads in the LA area ([0] among the
highest number of grads in the country) which is experiencing a serious brain
drain of talent to the Bay Area, NYC, and Seattle.

[0] [https://www.ocregister.com/2017/07/24/is-southern-
california...](https://www.ocregister.com/2017/07/24/is-southern-california-
suffering-a-tech-brain-drain/)

~~~
stevenwoo
I'm surprised that LA is experiencing such a brain drain, anecdotally, it
seemed there were quite a few LA/SD area jobs in last month's job listing.

~~~
JAFTEM
My gut tells me the job market is worst for junior devs in SoCal. Junior level
openings aren't growing nearly as fast as the number of students trying to
break into the workforce. A total of 0 of my friends at USC who were CS grads
stayed in LA.

------
bearcobra
I feel like Columbus is going to be a strong contender based on Amazon's plans
to use CVG as their hub for Amazon Air and wanting to have some proximity to
that.

------
Infernal
I was surprised at the goofy map they used here - the bottom third of the
country seems vertically compressed (see the angle of Florida's peninsula, or
how squashed the bottom of Texas is). Also... Raleigh is south of Nashville
(not north the way their map has it) and Nashville is 100 + miles east of
where they've got it (based on Louisiana). Just surprising that so little time
apparently went into it, maybe maps are harder than I think?

------
markstos
My money is on the three targets clustered around Washington, DC. If there are
three cities that are so promising so close together, it seems like a good
place to land.

~~~
dhimes
Since Bezos owns the Post it would also be convenient.

------
jpeeler
Anyone else think Amazon released a list of twenty cities to create a
substantially higher buzz factor, rather than a much shorter list would?

------
thisisit
This whole shtick reminds me of a time when one of employers was getting a new
office. Lot of places were proposed so that people had to travel less. But it
all came down to BCP or business continuity plan. The plan stated both offices
needed to be at least 9.5 miles or 15 kms apart. In case of service disruption
atleast one office should be up and running.

------
rainbowmverse
Atlanta is right in the middle of many of the world's flight paths (there's a
city outside the airport!), has lots of fiber, and the state already showed a
willingness to work at all levels to get a big, logistics-dependent business
with the Caterpillar plant. The latter point is probably the most important.

~~~
freehunter
>(there's a city outside the airport!)

You say that, but my experience is that there's a _traffic jam_ outside the
airport, and then an hour and a half later you get to Alpharetta ;)

~~~
ebragg09
The proposed locations are on MARTA (the main one is 15 minutes from the
airport by direct rail), and certainly _not_ all the way up in Alpharetta.

------
nerdponx
What a circus.

~~~
briankelly
They missed a great opportunity to do this as a game show. Pit the mayors
against each other Survivor-style and vote one off each week - they could've
even staged it in the Amazon.

But yeah in all seriousness this is obnoxious.

~~~
dx034
Oh yeah, but as a new season of Takeshi's castle! That would be amazing!

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takeshi's_Castle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takeshi's_Castle)

------
soared
The page keeps crashing on iOS about 80% of the way through, can someone post
the actual list?

~~~
uptown
Atlanta

Austin, Tex.

Boston

Chicago

Columbus, Ohio

Dallas

Denver

Indianapolis

Los Angeles

Miami

Montgomery County, Md.

Nashville

Newark

New York

Northern Virginia

Phladelphia

Pittsburgh

Raleigh, N.C.

Toronto, Canada

Washington, D.C.

------
gshakir
The whole west coast seems to be ruled out, so clearly geography is coming
into play.

~~~
aaronarduino
Except for Los Angeles, that is.

~~~
kenhwang
I can't imagine Los Angeles being a serious contender.

\- Land is expensive and not particularly abundant. Mid-Wilshire is relatively
cheap has great proximity to everything (airport, downtown, west LA,
Hollywood) if Amazon is willing to invest in the gentrification of the area.

\- Labor cost is within 10% of Bay/Seattle/NYC

\- Mass transit is currently effectively non-existent.

\- One of the highest taxed cities in the nation.

On the plus side, there's:

\+ A very well connected international airport

\+ A lot of top tier universities nearby (CalTech, UCLA, USC, UCSB, UCSD, UCI,
Pepperdine); any one of which can single handedly supply a workforce
comparable to the other candidate cities.

It's a lot easier moving people and airplanes to the other cities than it is
creating cheap well connected land in LA.

~~~
JAFTEM
They would have a monopoly on LA universities since the LA area is
experiencing a serious brain drain of talent to the Bay Area, Seattle, and
NYC.

[https://www.ocregister.com/2017/07/24/is-southern-
california...](https://www.ocregister.com/2017/07/24/is-southern-california-
suffering-a-tech-brain-drain/)

------
linkmotif
Take a look at what’s happened to Seattle and you’re liable to say “no, thank
you.” The gentrification, the homelessness. The overall wealth inequality.

I mean, sure, Amazon invested billions in Seattle, but those billions went to
people who lead end of days capitalist lifestyles oriented around giving that
money right back megacorporations like... Amazon. Suggesting the Amazon’s
investment will be meaningfully local is kind of comical. It’s a
multinational, and the people who get that money will give it right back to
multinationals. That’s how those people spend their income.

Amazon isn’t trying to promote ways of life that don’t revolve around cheap
foreign goods, soul crushing work, and an isolated, lonely existence. The
lucky place that lands HQ2 will have more of all these things, and a lot less
humanity. It’s good for business.

~~~
keyboardhitter
Some days I feel disgusted by even participating in the job market for those
reasons. I feel there's a very superficial aspect to some lifestyles in
Seattle (including my own) that I didn't expect to become so... unavoidable

My stomach feels sick reading the HQ2 updates. It seems so good on paper, and
surely it would create jobs and promote infrastructure growth, but... there is
something very dystopian about it that makes me want to run away.

------
daveroberts
> William Whyte‘s rule: Virtually all corporate relocations involve a move to
> a location which is closer to the CEO’s home than the old location.

Of course, it's hard to pick any location farther than Seattle from DC.

------
DeepYogurt
They really should just go to Honolulu. Who wouldn't want to work there?

~~~
seansmccullough
Cost of living is bad, and it takes an entire day to get back to the mainland.

------
arcaster
If they come to Boston, I'll be leaving ASAP.

Please don't ruin Austin either...

~~~
nkassis
I highly doubt they could ruin boston, the city is big enough to absorb this.

~~~
EamonnMR
Maybe they could get Amazon to rig up a new signaling system for the T. The
current one has really mediocre uptime at peak hours.

------
corpMaverick
For the companies/individuals that hold the keys to the real state in the
winning city, it is like winning the lottery. Even if they have no knowledge
whatsoever of software or technology.

------
bob_theslob646
Kind of funny most of them have airports. Really makes you realize how much
the traveling salesmen problem(route optimization) is embedded in everything
they do.

------
tfolbrecht
I think Miami would be good strategically for Amazons future warm-water port.

Joking aside, What sort of hoops do they expect these city and state
governments jump through?

~~~
astrodust
Given how southern Florida is at risk of going under-water, this is a strange
thing to see on the list.

------
WalterBright
Interesting that they're all far from Seattle.

------
holydude
I wish i could live in North America. You guys have it so exciting out there
;).

Hopefully it goes to a region that kinda needs it and can grow further.

~~~
freehunter
I guarantee someone in North America has said the exact same thing about your
country :)

Everyone wants to be somewhere else.

~~~
dominotw
<deleted>

~~~
freehunter
Mmmm, you might be surprised. Much like there's a romantic view of the US from
other countries, there's a romantic view of India for some Americans. India is
an absolutely massive, diverse country with a lot to offer.

The Beatles spent a lot of time in India and came back very different people.
That's enough to draw some level of interest from folks looking for a
spiritual journey, not to mention the history of their (to many Americans)
mysterious, exotic, and ancient religions.

But from that guy's post history, I'm guessing he's from Central or Eastern
Europe, which does hold a far more massive draw for many Americans.

------
rbcgerard
Newark?

~~~
rpiguy
Easy access to three airports, the Turnpike, New York City, lots of college
educated people from surrounding areas and tons of universities within a
thirty mile radius. They also already have offices there for Audible, and a
huge distribution center in southern, NJ.

It is possible, but I think unlikely. For all those good points, you can get
them in other cities with lower cost of labor, lower taxes, etc. Though taxes
might not count for much given the wheeling and dealing states are willing to
do to get the business.

------
frugalmail
Los Angeles would probably service it best with Silicon Beach, great airport
connections, great diversity

------
rblion
knowing my luck, it'll be Atlanta

------
dingo_bat
This shows how unsuitable most American cities are for opening a large high-
tech office. Ideally, Amazon should be searching for a city according to their
existing tax laws. Exceptions should not be needed. In fact, if a city gives
breaks to Amazon, they should amend their laws so that the same deal is
available to every citizen.

------
bhewes
Oh so every large city that is business friendly and that is a decision?

------
perseusprime11
I dont see the list of 20 HQ2 candidates. Does anyone know?

------
m3kw9
if it is a tech HQ they want to at least move to the east coast so they don’t
compete in talent.

------
ihsw2
No Ottawa, very disappointing.

------
DiNovi
this is still so bizarre

------
kbos87
Please Amazon, stay away from Boston. We don’t need or want you here.

------
tinduck
No New Orleans, Detroit, or Memphis.

I really wished they considered a majority African American community that has
the capacity to grow. This is just going to increase inequality. Sad really.

Let's hope for Atlanta.

~~~
RKearney
No Laredo, Brownsville, or El Paso.

I really wished they considered a majority Hispanic community that has the
capacity to grow. This is just going to increase in-quality. Sad really.

Let's hope for Miami.

Or maybe let's not turn every corporate decision into a race war.

------
tartuffe78
All the Mayors of these cities will now engage in a hunger games style
competition at Jeff Bezos' estate for the privilege.

~~~
Pokepokalypse
If Amazon were streaming that show, I'd pay for it. Hell, I'd pay $29.99 to
see it in HD!

------
Madmallard
Thank god my city is not on this list. Amazon will kill the culture where they
go and raise cost of living.

