
Are coders worth it? (2013) - shubhamjain
https://aeon.co/essays/dad-s-company-made-burgers-mine-just-eats-them
======
brbsix
Does Brad Pitt work 5000 times harder than X struggling actor? If someone is
wondering why coal miners aren't generously rewarded for their hard work,
they've obviously missed an important lesson. Apart from perhaps your parents
or in the public sector, no one cares how hard you work. Mostly it's all about
the value you're able to provide. Developers just happen to be wizards of the
modern era. Politicians, the priestly class, and financiers the kingmakers. I
absolutely agree with the sentiment about all the "nonsense" teen social apps,
but they're obviously providing value to someone, to investors or advertisers
if not users.

~~~
circlefavshape
> Apart from perhaps your parents or in the public sector, no one cares how
> hard you work

As far as The Market is concerned it doesn't matter how hard you work, but
people _do_ care.

~~~
nine_k
Those who just do care but not related to the market usually won't pay anyway.

------
candu
Can we get away from the "programming" == "web programming" fallacy? Building
simple CRUD on a RoR stack is but one tiny part of the professional
programming world.

Hell, I could consider myself a web developer of sorts, and I wear many hats:
algorithm design, basic database optimization, backend services, REST API
design/implementation, basic security, profiling/benchmarking (client-side,
server-side, and backend services), basic interaction design, basic project
management (of the tech lead variety), code review, debugging, basic devops
deployment/monitoring, etc. etc. etc.

(You might notice I put "basic" on a lot of those; I'm just old enough to have
stopped thinking that I'm really good at most of this.)

...and that leaves out the zillion other things that programmers of various
stripes do: custom kernel builds, _real_ nuts-and-bolts database optimization
(i.e. "OK, I'm going to go patch MySQL now"), sensors/microcontrollers, real-
time computing, scientific computing, distributed systems
design/implementation, content design, visual design, data analytics, growth
hacking, user testing, playtesting, statistical machine learning, writing
academic papers, public speaking (e.g. "developer evangelist" roles, or anyone
who ever has to present their work in meetings), open-sourcing...

 _gasp_ OK, I've got to go do some of the aforementioned things now, before I
spend all day writing this list :)

~~~
sciurus
Part of the author's point is that (he thinks) most web programmers don't do
those things. For example, he points out that he is freeloading off the work
of the people who develop the Ruby on Rails framework.

------
falsestprophet
"Coders" just write instructions for computers. What use are they? Other
people do the real work.

What do truck drivers do? _They just move the wheel. Other people do the real
work of building the truck and designing it and telling it where to go._

What do truck dispatchers do? _They just tell it where to go. Other people do
the real work of actually driving the thing, building it and designing it._

What do truck assemblers do? _They just put the thing together. Other people
do the real work of driving the thing, telling it where to go and designing
it._

What do truck engineers do? _They just design the thing. Other people do the
real work of driving the thing, telling it where to go and building it._

~~~
dfcowell
So the real money goes to the guy who takes all of those things and puts them
under one roof, farming out the implementation details to others. What of it?

------
lmm
Interesting to see the scornful mocking of Tinder here, when just a few years
on it's produced so much value for so many people. (Sure, no-one _needs_ it -
but no-one _needs_ the selection of fresh groceries in the supermarket either.
Sex is every bit as human and fundamental a need as food).

The truly naive thing, the glib and facile thing, might be thinking that
writing or coal mining should be worth more than coding, based on nothing more
than this impression that coding is "kids playing around with tools given to
us by adults".

~~~
my5thaccount
You can live without sex, but not food.

~~~
brbsix
True, but it means gene death, which is arguably worse. Physiologically,
ostracism is indistinguishable from physical torture, particularly during the
reproductive years [0]. Sustained long enough, this can make people act in
strange and unpredictable ways, as if in death throes. The Elliot Rodger case
comes to mind.

[0]:
[http://scan.oxfordjournals.org/content/6/2/234.full.pdf+html](http://scan.oxfordjournals.org/content/6/2/234.full.pdf+html)

~~~
vox_mollis
_but it means gene death_

Sneaking suspicion that Tinder users are not exactly using the service for
procreative purposes.

~~~
surge
_shudders_ imagined they were for a second.

------
Raphmedia
> In today’s world, web developers have it all: money, perks, freedom,
> respect.

Wait, what? I am a coder and I don't have unlimited perks, freedom, money or
respect. There are so many coders those days that we are nothing more than
numbers.

Perhaps that's true for rockstars programmers from Silicon Valley, but that
sure isn't true for my part of the world.

~~~
lmm
I find a lot of coders underestimate their own value. Take a look at the
market, maybe do some interviews - even if you are happy in your current job,
it's well worth knowing your market value.

------
sakopov
$80k after a few months sounds crazy but it really isn't. $80k in salary in
NYC would probably equate to $50-60k anywhere else besides SV, which is a
reasonable starting pay. With rent as high as it is in NYC I can't imagine
there's much left in savings out of that salary. That's some frugal living...

------
stegosaurus
This article is a total and utter joke.

In my city, the vast, vast majority of people earn shit wages under shit
conditions. They will work for their entire lifetimes and at the end of it
have a state retirement which affords them some rice to go with their beans.

Software development is one of the very few careers that allows its' workers
just about enough, in some cases but not all, enough to buy a home and to have
some leisure time.

Yes, we are worth it. _Everyone_ is worth that. The fact that not all careers
reward enough for basic living is an indictment on our society.

Not only that - he's talking about food at work and fancy bloody chairs as if
they actually mean anything. Wake the fuck up. Your boss has seven, eight,
nine figures in the bank. That's 'indispensable'. Not this Stockholm Syndrome
bollocks.

Divide and conquer.

------
banku_brougham
I really enjoyed this article, I think he is capable writer, and has brought
something to a broad audience that I bet everyone reading HN takes for
granted. The rest of the comments indicate that this audience is too close to
see the big picture.

------
staticelf
I see web development mainly as a form of communication, which has always been
important for society. But it can also be for entertainments sake like gaming.
I don't really recognize the picture the author paints for me.

For example, I rarely call companies if there's an live-chat, I buy stuff from
companies that has an attractive purchase system etc etc.

------
simula67
I am unsure as to what the central point is to this post, but I will try to
rebut two ideas I think are central.

1\. Coders are paid way more for the effort and hardship they put in at work.
This reduces the value of hard work.

Even if programmers are paid more than - say a coal miner - for the effort
they put in, it does not diminish the value of hard work. I think we can all
accept that :

Success = function(hard work, talent, luck)

Since hard work is the only thing in that equation you can control, you must
always work hard. This is why parents try to emphasize the value of hard work.
I think it is obvious, even in the software industry, given the same talent
and same luck, people who work harder are more successful. So, if your goal in
life is to make a lot of money, you better be a software engineer than a coal
miner. Figuring this out and making an effort to be a software engineer also
counts as hard work. Some people call it smart work, but it many ways, it is
just the same.

So, this is the way the world is. But is it the way the world should be ? The
author also takes issue with coal miners being paid less. We all know people
follow incentives. If coal miners are paid more, more people will try to
become coal miners. Coal mining is a dangerous job and we should not have any
more people doing it than is absolutely necessary.

The reason software engineers are paid so much is because people do not pay
for the hardship that you faced for providing them some value. They pay for
the value delivered. Once a piece of software is written, it can be used by
millions or billions of people. If each of them paid for the value they
received, software engineers would earn their salary. This is why musicians,
authors etc are paid a lot of money too. It is fitting and proper that we do
this, since these type of activities ( large amount of benefit produced for
little effort ) should attract more energy and people than say, coal mining.

2\. I am paid more than I deserve. I am humble enough to admit it. You should
too.

It is important to know if you are paid more than the value you deliver. But
the truth is that most people take your self-report about your value to be a
proxy to determine how valuable you are. Imagine walking into an interview and
saying : 'I am paid $125K at my current job, but I don't think I deliver that
much value'. If you are so humble, you may not get the promotions that you
deserve, you may not get the opportunities that you deserve, you may not get
the pay hikes that you deserve, you may not get the jobs you deserve. Being
humble is mostly only useful if everyone else feels threatened by you. Most
people in the world are not threatened by software engineers. We are pretty
low status.

~~~
joslin01
You left out education in your function, which I think is paramount to hard
work & talent & luck. The education will give you direction, which is an input
into your hard work and the catalyst for the discovery of your natural
talents.

The reason why programmers are worth so much isn't as much about the value
they deliver. It's true -- it _can_ be very profitable. However, software
developers are scarce in nature because of the education needed to write code.

~~~
mziel
Agreed. Our hourly wage does not equal the amount of hard work during that
hour. It's also a (amortized) function of all the years you've spend in or
outside of school perfecting your skills.

------
coderKen
IMHO I don't think the writer's work as a programmer ever had valuable impact.
He probably spent all his career doing CRUD. Take Google for example, it's
just a web page, and yes a colourful logo and a search box and yes that single
search business is worth millions of dollars if not billions. Is it worth it?
Now imagine your life without Google. Tell me if it's worth it.

------
tryitnow
Compensation for developers will drop over the long term, especially at the
junior level.

Compensation will come in line with the comp received by other professions
which require similar levels of IQ. The comp for those other professions is
likely to go up as well. Over time compensation for people of roughly
equivalent intelligence will reach a dynamic equilibrium.

------
ommunist
Are hedge fund managers worth it? The author should put those guys into
comparison too, not only the coal miners.

~~~
kfk
Say what you want, but I doubt anybody would accept anybody as hedge fund
managers after 6 months into a Hacker School. The fact that 6 months or less
of training are enough to make $85k is very, very, telling of the situation.
Note that those huge salaries and easy barriers to entry will bring salaries
down and commoditize things. I think it's good that sometimes you guys do a
bit of reality check, especially if you plot things against the long term. I
doubt 10 years from now a RoR developer will be so much above the median
salary.

~~~
VeejayRampay
Though you should be honest and note that no one is making $85K after 6 months
or less of training. Those people are obviously filling positions, but not the
$85K ones.

~~~
akavi
I personally know five people who landed salaries of 100 k$/yr or more after
_three_ months of programming training.

That's five people whom I'm on close enough terms with to overcome the salary
discussion taboo. So I imagine there are many, many, many more.

~~~
lsaferite
And were they able to keep those jobs?

I firmly believe that programming is a creative and not production job. With
that in mind, some people are naturals and everything just clicks for them.
Others are perhaps silver tongued and can talk their way into the job even
without the needed skills up front. Those will either learn on the job, ride
on coat tails, or flame out. And then you have those who clearly have no clue
and the hiring process was flawed in some deep way.

The real test is, do they still have the job 3/6/12 months later? If the
answer is yes, then either they deserve the salary or their boss doesn't.

~~~
akavi
Four of them are more than two years on. The last just started, so we'll see.

I think you underestimate the number of people for whom it clicks. Programming
does seem to require a certain amount of general intelligence, but the notion
of an innate _specific_ talent being required for it isn't supported by my
experience.

