
British man banned from US because of text to American girlfriend - r_singh
https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/british-man-banned-from-us-for-life-after-immigration-officials-find-text-to-american-girlfriend/news-story/7e8df16ef386f5cacddb7ec3164b44ef
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chrischen
I'm almost 100% certain at some point someone said that this would only ever
be used to stop Bin Laden style terrorists, and now people are browsing
through intimate text conversations to ban people on trivial technicalities
from allied countries.

The problem is not that this person received a harsh punishment, but that we
will continue sliding down this slippery slope. Next thing you know, this
won't be limited to our borders. We'll have minority style report pre-crime
punishments. This guy was essentially punished before he even committed his
crime (overstaying in the US).

~~~
gambiting
Not to undermine your point, but the entire visa-granting process is based on
a pre-crime action. I'm unlucky to be from a country that still requires visas
to the US(Poland - despite the fact that our government is literally crawling
up the ass of the American government and participating in every single
conflict America engages in for no reason other than to say we are great
friends), and yeah, basically to be allowed to visit the US you have to visit
the embassy and allow your whole life to be inspected - if there is any chance
that you might stay - and it might be as minor as having a cousin already
living in the US and being in vaguely the same industry you are in, which of
course is an indication you will want to stay too /s - then you will be denied
and told to try again in 10 years. It's absolutely brutal and yes, it's based
entirely on officials guessing whether someone is likely to break the law or
not - not whether the law was actually broken.

~~~
neverminder
It is interesting that Poland looks to be the only EU country that is not on
the list of US Visa Waiver program -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_Waiver_Program#/media/Fil...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_Waiver_Program#/media/File:Visa_policy_of_the_USA.png)

~~~
bonoboTP
Bulgaria, Romania, Croatia as well.

~~~
BerislavLopac
And Cyprus. But Croatia is the only EU country not on the "roadmap list" of
countries considered to join the program.

------
TorKlingberg
The border control system is full of these gotchas and opportunities for
arbitrary harsh punishments. Just off the top of my head, and a mix of US and
UK:

* Be careful saying you are travelling for "business" or "work". The two words mean about the same in everyday use, but at a border check one is perfectly fine and one is a giant no-no.

* You apply for a 30-day visa and are granted a 90-day visa. If you decide to extend your trip to 90 days you can be banned for misrepresentation.

* The whole thing with "intention to immigrate" that is basically policing your internal mental state. It's perfectly fine to travel to America on a non-immigrant visa, decide you like it there and apply for a change of status or a new immigrant visa. Someone who planned to do that from the beginning is violating their visa, but of course it's impossible to prove unless they slip up.

* There are many situations where you are allowed to stay in a country, but if you go on any trip to an other country you will not be let back in. For example if you are waiting for an extension application. Not fun if a parent is suddenly sick in hospital and you want to see them before they die.

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enriquto
It is unacceptable that border police do search the messages in my phone.
Never going to this country.

~~~
WorkingClassSWE
Canadian border patrol have done it too

------
yholio
This has to be the result of some incentive structure that rewards border
personnel whenever any scrap of evidence for illegal intention is found.

No policeman I ever met was ever so thorough with their job. It's deliberate
emigration policy at work.

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teh_infallible
Something similar, though much less extreme happened to me. My Australian
girlfriend got a year long visa to stay with me in the US. The immigration
officer detained her for 3 hours, and eventually told her she could only stay
for six months. (This was a long time ago, late 99s, so I can’t remember the
justification or how he had the authority to alter a visa she had already been
granted. He may have been lying.)

He himself wasn’t born in the US, a detail which really pissed me off at the
time.

How can someone whose job is to check your visa have any power to alter it?

~~~
golergka
> He himself wasn’t born in the US, a detail which really pissed me off at the
> time.

One thing that I constantly notice americans born in US don't understand about
immigrants is that legal immigrants are one of the most anti-illegal
immigration groups in the country. At least a lot of knowledge workers that
got in through H1B or similar mechanisms are.

It makes perfect sense. I know a LOT of people who immigrated to US legally,
and they see illegals as people who're trying to cheat at exactly the same
rules that they have had to obey and spend a lot of resources and effort to do
so.

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severine
Can you imagine if the same attention and assumptions were payed to rich
people's private money moves and communications?

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jopsen
Because most illegal immigrants are British, lol :)

Being an illegal immigrant in the US is extremely unattractive -- decent jobs
require paperwork.

~~~
baybal2
You know, you will be surprised that the charts of biggest illegal immigrant
nationalities worldwide is topped by Swiss citizens.

Developed countries' citizens consistently outmatch people from undeveloped
countries when in comes to immigration crimes almost everywhere

~~~
raverbashing
> Developed countries' citizens consistently outmatch people from undeveloped
> countries when in comes to immigration crimes almost everywhere

[Citation needed]

Just an example, it is assumed the US has around 11Mi undocumented migrants
(rough number). Switzerland does not even have that many people.

~~~
baybal2
Almost always, but not everywhere. For US, yes, other American nationals make
~50% of their illegal immigrants, and that's a phenomenon on its own.

But take a bigger sample. Swiss were biggest offenders in Hongkong, Macau, and
dozen other tropical vacation destinations.

Few years ago, Singapore's biggest offenders after Malaysians happened to be
US citizens.

India, complicated story... but if you not count Bangladesh citizens, and
stateless, I think almost all of OECD members will get to the chart

Vietnam, heard that they struggle with US citizens in recent years as well,
though mostly Vietnamese Americans

African countries, a known story - tourist overstayers

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rdiddly
It's pretty stupid. Moving can mean taking action. Not that it's any of their
business. On the other hand, I can see why they would think that, but isn't it
like, pretty easy to tell if this guy ends up overstaying his visa or whatnot?

Then I get distracted by the embarrassment I feel reading his meticulous
reassurances to her banal insecurities.

Then I'm back to feeling bad for the guy, with someone like me reading his
texts.

------
goodcanadian
The article is somewhat misleading. The image of the texts provided by the man
himself show an intention to "never be away from you again" in addition to
"moving to be with you." We only have the man's word on what happened; we have
none of the evidence that the border officials used. Did he have a return
ticket? Did he have a home or a job to go back to? A lifetime ban seems a bit
extreme, but I am completely unsurprised that he wasn't admitted.

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r_singh
Here's the text that caused this:
[https://imgur.com/O2SbNL8](https://imgur.com/O2SbNL8)

~~~
gcb0
a barrage of clingy text messages after a break up. Looks like border patrol
was really trying to save the american person in this one case. /rimshot

~~~
goodcanadian
Funny you say that. It would seem to be standard to call the girlfriend to
check his story. If she said she didn't want to see him, that would cast a
great deal of doubt on his stated reason for coming.

~~~
mcv
It certainly could be interpreted in a somewhat stalkery way. We have no idea
what the girlfriend thinks about this. Calling her could have cleared up a
lot.

Of course it's also possible they did call her and kicked him out exactly
because of something she said. We only have his part of the story. It could be
a complete misrepresentation.

He also seems rather eager to share lots of private photos of them together.
Could be a red flag.

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actionowl
Does the US _really_ have a problem with UK citizens overstaying their visa? I
highly doubt it, this is insane.

~~~
rutthenut
Yes, they do have issues with this. Whether UK or any other nationality.
Funnily, I have a colleague who overstayed his entry visa by exiting a day
late and frequently gets stopped and questioned when he goes back, which he
does often as he had since married an American and probably entitled to US and
UK passports by now!

~~~
cheerlessbog
Getting a green card would presumably reduce his border hassles. On the flip
side it would require him to file US taxes as long as he retains it no matter
where he lives.

In my case even with that I got hassled every time - multi hour delays on
every arrival because of something screwed up in their records of me.
Eventually I went so far as to get citizenship because of the hassle. That
requires me to file US taxes for the rest of my life even if I choose to
permanently reside outside the US.

------
kristianp
Reminds me of this news story about a 70-year old children's author detained
at a US airport [1]. I'm led to believe that US customs/immigration is the
rudest in the developed world. Nowhere else talks to visitors to their country
in this fashion.

[1]: [https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-25/mem-fox-detained-
at-l...](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-25/mem-fox-detained-at-los-
angeles-airport-by-us-officials/8303366)

------
threezero
Aside from the fact that this article originally came from a sensationalist
tabloid (the Sun), there is only the word of the one person, without even a
quote from his girlfriend. The whole thing sounds fishy.

~~~
DanBC
It doesn't sound fishy at all.

Border patrol routinely check through people's documentation to see if their
stated reason for visiting is supported. This person claims to be visiting
temporarily, but has sent text saying he is moving to be with this woman and
never wants to leave her: this is enough for entry to be denied. This is not
an uncommon experience.

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Topgamer7
Power tripping border officials.

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Tsubasachan
Should have used WeChat. On a Huawei phone.

~~~
akmarinov
They can detain you indefinitely until you give up your password, so it
doesn’t matter.

There are no laws at the border, even the constitution doesn’t apply for US
citizens there.

~~~
angry_octet
Just a nitpick, but the Constitution still applies (and worldwide between US
GOvt and US Persons), but the courts have decided its rules against
unreasonable search and seizure don't apply for customs and immigration
purposes with certain distances of a port of entry.

Plenty of laws apply. They thing to remember is that you can't give up
something you don't have. Use a blank dumb phone when crossing, restore
afterwards.

~~~
DanBC
The entry requirements aren't just "show me the phone you have", they include
"give me your social media details".

Turning up with a burnder phone is a guarantee that you're going to spend
hours in an immigration office.

~~~
angry_octet
I've not heard of demands for fb/twitter/email passwords. More of a concern
for non-citizens -- don't post anything publicly I'm afraid.

------
mcv
Even if he did eventually want to live permanently in the US, why would that
be a reason to ban him? Does the US only want people who hate the place? If
so, they're doing a good job.

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vinni2
Why was he detained and his messages checked in the first place? The
immigration officer must have had some suspicion even without the text
messages.

------
mproud
wut

------
Nextgrid
Just wondering as to why people even bother with the US at all? What does the
US give you that UK doesn’t, besides a fucked up government (even more so than
the UK - see who’s in charge of the FCC or the tax filing situation), crazy &
unreasonable immigration policies, etc?

This won’t change as long as people accept it. But if tomorrow tourism &
business travel slows down to a crawl because of this you can bet you’ll see
changes the next day.

~~~
avocado4
Unmatched opportunities for science, entrepreneurship, education, and
technology. Population that's more welcoming to immigrants than any other
place in the world by far. Outdoors. Cleaner air and water. Cheap prices.
Diversity. Optimistic, friendly, and humble people.

~~~
hnarn
As someone who, like you, was born in Europe, I feel like half of those points
are open for debate and the other half are nonsensical. Are you saying that
the nation that is the home of the Flint water crisis and has a weaker
Environmental Protection Agency than ever is something you move to in order to
get "cleaner air and water"?

What do you mean when you say "diversity"? Have you been to the mid west?
There are "un-diverse" and "diverse" areas of almost every country. People in
the US are "optimistic"? "Friendly" and "humble"? The claim that Americans are
"humble" when compared internationally is almost laughable (probably even by
most americans), and I doubt that "friendliness" is really something you see
drastic differences in around the globe. For the the last one there's no need
to ask your gut because there are studies made regarding in what countries
people feel the most optimistic about the future. As a matter of fact, most of
them have pointed out China as the most optimistic country, which may make
sense in a perspective of economical relative growth, but it doesn't on its
own make me want to buy an apartment in Shanghai.

~~~
golergka
> I doubt that "friendliness" is really something you see drastic differences
> in around the globe

So, you have never been to Eastern Europe or CIS countries.

~~~
hnarn
Does your definition or "friendliness" assume that you speak the local
language? Because if the answer is yes, I have no doubt you can find equally
friendly (and rude) people in Eastern Europe as you can in Beijing, London,
Cairo or New York. You may have a different opinion but I believe that there
is a basic level of humanity anywhere in the world, and that this level often
has an inverse correlation with material wealth.[1] That being said, if you
can't use mutually intelligible words for things, people tend to become a bit
reserved. That's something that's true everywhere in the world.

If you assume an English speaker traveling around, I would argue it's not a
fair comparison to equate the friendliness of a stranger in Russia with the
friendliness of a stranger in the United States, for example -- not only
because of pure language reasons, but also for simple reasons of historical,
educational, and cultural context. Not that finding a rude American is hard,
mind you. I'm speaking from experience as an ESL speaker who has been there
several times :-)

(But, to answer your question, no, I have unfortunately not been to EE/CIS --
but I have been to China, which I think is a strong contender.)

[1]: [https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/wealth/save/why-poor-
pe...](https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/wealth/save/why-poor-people-tend-
to-be-more-generous-than-the-rich/articleshow/65078320.cms)

~~~
golergka
I was born and live in Eastern Europe. I have also lived in Israel for a few
years, and have visited other countries for significant period of time.

People here are much less trusting and are much more aggressive to others. It
is actually LESS visible if you're a foreigner, because people are also
concerned with self-image, and don't really perceive you as a threat or a
contender for anything.

As an American who doesn't speak Russian, you'll get a much better treatment
from stranger on a street than another Russian would.

> I believe that there is a basic level of humanity anywhere in the world, and
> that this level often has an inverse correlation with material wealth.

Every possible crime statistics contradicts this. Poor countries in general
view violence as something more normalised than advanced ones.

------
ralph84
This is one side of the story. There's likely more than just this text message
that raised suspicion.

But the law is quite clear that anyone applying for admission to the US is
presumed to be an intending immigrant and the burden is on them to prove they
will leave before their duration of status expires. Literally millions of
people per year are denied visitor visas because they can't meet that burden
of proof. Not sure why this is particularly newsworthy.

~~~
CloudNetworking
He wasn't denied a visitor visa, he's been banned for life and that can't be
overturned. Quite different. He also has a girlfriend in the US, so that's
over for him. That's life changing.

BTW, he doesn't exactly need a visa, he was on an ESTA.

~~~
ralph84
ESTA doesn't waive the requirement to prove non-immigrant intent when applying
for admission.

If he really was banned for life there's more to the story than his inability
to prove non-immigrant intent (e.g. fraud, criminal history, etc.). Even
people present in the US illegally for extended periods of time are not banned
for life.

~~~
username90
Lying about anything at all to an immigration official is enough to grant you
a lifetime ban to the US. I guess they took his message as lying about intent
of visit in his application which they could label as "fraud".

Edit: Added source. All that is needed is that they believe you lied to a U.S.
government official and they can ban you for life.

It can basically be considered fraud if this is true:

> When making the false representation, the person intended to deceive a U.S.
> government official authorized to act upon the request (generally an
> immigration or consular officer).

And this is the consequence:

> The person will be barred from admission for the rest of his or her life
> unless the person qualifies for and is granted a waiver.

[https://www.uscis.gov/policy-manual/volume-8-part-j-
chapter-...](https://www.uscis.gov/policy-manual/volume-8-part-j-chapter-2)

