
We Need More Pessimistic Games - smacktoward
https://waypoint.vice.com/en_us/article/gynd8y/pessimistic-games-melancholy-silent-hill
======
strken
Why the hell would anyone want that? I've already spent most of my life
feeling like I'm slowly drowning, I don't need a two-bit piece of unity
shovelware to help me explore the feeling of being trapped within a doomed
world of banal everyday evil.

~~~
klodolph
You could make the same argument about books... why the hell would anyone
_want_ to read 1984?

I'm glad we don't live in a world where all of the books, movies, and video
games have been sterilized and sanitized and pumped full of diazepam.

~~~
strken
1984 is more than just pessimism, it's a warning that Orwell wrote because he
hoped that there was time to change. Games like Mirror's Edge have a similar
message: dark times are ahead if we don't take action. I read and play them in
the spirit of preventing disaster and I can't imagine other people are much
different.

Kunzelman writes that "pessimism, crucially, does not see a way out." The
world cries out for a way out of global warming, food insecurity, nuclear
proliferation: does it do any good for us to paralyze ourselves with imagined
impotence?

~~~
klodolph
Pessimism and optimism are different lenses to view the world, I don't think
there's a solid case to be made that privileges one over the other. Looking at
the world through either lens distorts what we see. Take global warming as an
example. If I am optimistic, I could believe that we will curb carbon
emissions and convert the world to use clean energy. If I am pessimistic, I
could believe that we'll face severe ecological devastation and food
shortages.

"Hope for the best, expect the worst" is only possible if you are capable of
seeing both the optimistic solution to a problem and the pessimistic
consequences for failing to solve a problem. If you limit yourself to only an
optimistic or only a pessimistic viewpoint, you are crippling your ability to
deal with problems rationally.

------
Cthulhu_
I've recently played Dark Souls 3 and it's depressing, as is Bloodborne; both
games (spoilers etc) feel kinda meaningless in the end. The premise of Dark
Souls 3 is that there's a cycle of light (fire) and dark, and the objective -
not just for the individual instalments, but for the world as a whole - is to
link the fire, so that the age of fire lasts for a little longer - but the
other side, the age of dark, is inevitable (and optionally you can cause it).
The world is old, every civilization has fallen and/or decayed, and there
doesn't seem to be any way for it to get back to normal given how everyone's
either undead or dying.

Bloodborne is a bit less hopeless, in that it feels like there's a pretty
normal world outside of the game area. However, it's depressing in all three
endings; spoilers again, the first ending is probably the least depressing
one, where after defeating the final boss, you just kneel down in front of
your guide / master (so to speak), accept your fate, and choose to forget all
of the events. You just wake up in the morning as if nothing happened. In the
second one, you fight and defeat your master, buuut an eldritch monstrosity
that masterminded the repeating cycle comes in and eats you, turning you into
the replacement of the guide. The final ending is where you defeat the
eldritch monstrosity and are reborn yourself as an eldritch monstrosity, again
(probably?) repeating the cycle.

No real happy endings there. It's all just bleak and meaningless.

~~~
naiyt
One interesting thing about Dark Souls is that there is quite a bit of
ambiguity around what the "age of dark" actually implies, and there's a lot of
hints that it might actually be a beneficial state for humanity.

Personally I found Bloodborne to be even more hopeless. It's all based on a
Lovecraftian view of the universe, where we're completely insignificant next
to these higher order beings and concepts. There are also almost no happy
endings for any of the NPCs, which contrasts with Dark Souls a bit. But again,
that's a really good translation of Lovecraft into video game form!

------
WhompingWindows
While I agree that pessimistic games are essentially non-existent, there's
good reason for that. Why would a video game developer make a completely
depressing, humdrum, everyday office worker game? Game designers and gamers
want something more flashy, fun, intriguing, competitive. They want to escape
daily routine, not return to a virtual version of it.

~~~
jerf
Video games always have the additional move that the developer can't remove:
"Turn The Game Off". If your game can't compete with that, you're going to
have very "selective appeal".

Not that I need every game to be a maximally-empowering dopamine releaser to
compete, but if you're going to present me with something that's actually
bleaker and more draining than my own real life, you're not going to last
long.

Other forms of art have their own additional ways of compensating for that
sort of thing that I don't see being options in video games, although, even
then I'd suggest the appeal is fairly selective. French movies in black and
white about existential crises and the fundamental meaninglessness of life
don't compete very well with $MARVEL_MOVIE at the summer box office.

~~~
moate
Selective appeal is fine. Black and white existential French films don't need
to compete with the latest MCU flick because they weren't filmed on a $200Mil
budget.

Similarly, making a AAA video game title about ennui is stupid, but small
indie studios doing $10-20 releases for a 5-10 hour gameplay art-game is a
thing.

------
tareqak
I probably like pessimistic games a little too much:

Papers, Please - [http://www.papersplea.se/](http://www.papersplea.se/)

This War of Mine -
[http://www.thiswarofmine.com](http://www.thiswarofmine.com)

Beholder - [https://beholder-game.com/](https://beholder-game.com/)

The Castle Doctrine -
[http://thecastledoctrine.net/buy.php](http://thecastledoctrine.net/buy.php)

Orwell -
[http://fellowtraveller.games/games/orwell/](http://fellowtraveller.games/games/orwell/)

Headliner -
[http://unboundcreations.com/games/headliner/](http://unboundcreations.com/games/headliner/)

We Become What We Behold -
[https://ncase.itch.io/wbwwb](https://ncase.itch.io/wbwwb)

Some survival games have a dystopian (therefore, pessimistic) premise, but
might not be pessimistic enough according to the article:

There Are Billions -
[http://www.numantiangames.com/theyarebillions/](http://www.numantiangames.com/theyarebillions/)

Frostpunk - [http://www.frostpunkgame.com/](http://www.frostpunkgame.com/)

Plague Inc. - [https://www.ndemiccreations.com/en/22-plague-
inc](https://www.ndemiccreations.com/en/22-plague-inc)

Even 'Dwarf Fortress' in fortress mode almost always ends with your fortress
being overrun -
[http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/](http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/)

~~~
bliblah
Those are some pretty sad games!

Just wanted to add two games that straight up left a void in me for a while
after I was done

Shadow of the Colossus - Is on PS2,PS3, and PS4 and I really can't recommend
it enough. Even if it technically ends with a hopeful ending its pretty
pessimistic.

Life is Strange - The first two episodes make is seem like a pretty goofy teen
drama but the last two episodes definitely become exponentially more
existential.

------
smolder
The premise seems to miss the point that people generally don't want to invest
time and money into things that make them sad or frustrated. The appeal of
games is exactly that they reward players for their efforts --that the
obstacles can be overcome. Art piece games that exist to convey some kind of
an experience that _isn 't fun_ are fine. The reward is just having the
experience, like a book or tv show. I'm just not sure they should be
considered games.

~~~
dudul
> The appeal of games is exactly that they reward players for their efforts

While I agree with the general comment, this part made me laugh a little. I
find that games are incredibly easy nowadays, there is little "effort" to
actually reward.

To me it's a worse trend than the lack of "pessimistic games". Building a
culture of "what do you mean I didn't succeed after the second try? But I'm
entitled to make it to the next level!!!!!"

I might be very cynical, but I think it hurts society a lot. Kind of similar
to all these TV shows where the main character transitioning from being a
waiter to sales executive or director of marketing in 2 or 3 seasons.

~~~
charliesharding
> I find that games are incredibly easy nowadays, there is little "effort" to
> actually reward.

While I agree with the general comment, this part made me laugh a little.
Games (and TV/movies) are designed to cheat your brains reward system and make
you feel like you are achieving something. This is why they're fun to
play/watch.

I would argue that it's more insidious to require more work out of the player
because it's prolonging the inevitable realization that you're not actually
accomplishing anything. Games that cut right to the chase and reward you from
minor accomplishments allow you to get that quick rush you were looking for
then get back to your life.

Think about people playing World of Warcraft (especially vanilla days),
sinking untold days of play time into grinding out gear/rep/gold. What are
they actually getting from this? Versus just about anything else they could be
doing with that time? The easier games make it to be rewarded, the more honest
they are as a game. You could argue that you want a game to feel like a job
because you can't get that satisfying sense of hard work paying off in real
life, but I seriously doubt anyone would be happier with a productive,
rewarding game life than a productive, rewarding life-life.

------
triptych
This seems way off base for me. Games are meant to empower you and help offset
the desperation of everyday life. Not grind you down further.

~~~
moate
Counterpoint: Some games are art, and are meant to make you feel something.
These games are also important and/or have a place in the world.

I don't think that I would want to dump 200 hours into "that dragon cancer"
but knowing that it exists and is as powerful as it is means something.
Playing that game makes you feel something important that blasting aliens with
laser pistols doesn't.

Being heroic isn't always saving the planet. Sometimes it's just waking up the
next day and going to work.

~~~
bizkitgto
> Being heroic isn't always saving the planet. Sometimes it's just waking up
> the next day and going to work.

Going to the cubicle and banging out TPS Reports day in and day out isn't
being heroic, it's being passive, living life on auto pilot. I hate it. And so
do most people who are aware of what it's doing to them.

~~~
moate
Without getting to deep into the philosophical point I was trying to make as
an afterthought in my comment:

"Given the choice between the sweet simple release provided by the revolver,
and continuing the Sisyphean task of just living, I consider the human race
heroic for simply being"

~~~
bizkitgto
It's those deeper philosophical questions that we struggle with, and once we
have the right 'question' the search for the answer is what drives most
people. But those answers are mostly elusive or non-existent. And that makes
people very unhappy.

------
escherplex
It's very easy to dismiss _life_ as an exercise in masochism. Take the idea up
a few notches and question what underwrites your physical existence: murder
and theft, involving the demise of countless plants and animals and theft of
their carcasses as a personal fuel source (old India Vedic/Buddhist
observation added for shock value). Very suckey. Then here by extension it
would seem subordinating yourself to the synthetic distractions of
psychopathic video games or maudlin RPGs as temporary anxiety outlets
ultimately tends in idle moments to reinforce that sense of futility. And then
why would you want to essentially 'sublimate' that synthetic psychopathic
stimuli by replacing it with a process of being jerked-around by scripted
pessimism? Doubt that it has to be that way. As old Milton pointed out in
'Paradise Lost': _the mind is a world in itself and in itself it can make a
heaven of hell or a hell of heaven_. Since it's unlikely anybody is going to
make the personal world that YOU would want for you, maybe a practical
excursion into _gnothi seauton_ (know yourself) then follow-up with scripting
your own suitable world.

------
dkersten
> is possible that we do not have pessimistic video games. I do not mean that
> we don’t have games with a down tone or with a general sense of negativity.
> I mean that video games, for whatever reason, have a hard time committing to
> the hell of life. They can be depressive, but they have a hard time letting
> go of the thought that there might be something good at the end of all this
> difficult.

I don’t know if I agree with the premise. Spoilers ahead.

The Dark Souls series is, in my opinion, essentially about futility. It could
be said that many of the gmaes monsters are just other players who eventually
gave up. Its implied that the world goes in cycles and no matter waht you
choose, ultimately nothing really changes. Bloodborne is about cosmic horrors
that are beyond our comprehension and that we cannot do anything about. The
Last Of Us ends with the entire quest having been for nothing. The Last
Guardian ends with the kid and the creature both getting severely injured,
getting separated and never seeing each other again. Shadow of the Collossus
ends with you killing solitary (and harmless to the world) creatures, freeing
the big bad and getting killed in the process, before you ever get to see the
princess revived (which was the entire reason you were on the quest to begin
with).

Many games tie up their stories, but don’t particularly end on a high note
exactly. Many games are pretty damned bleak. Hell, I’ve been finding that what
I really want to see is more games that are more upbeat and are about more
mundane things. For example, I loved the mundane (before the main plot kicks
in) aspects of Night in the Woods, just because they were so normal and didn’t
involve some dark, bleak, depressing story nor did it involve murdering
people. I actually wish that the plot didn’t happen in that game.

------
neutronicus
1v1 multiplayer games kind of mirror the always-someone-better hopelessness of
the daily grind, StarCraft being perhaps the ultimate example.

~~~
bitwize
I play Dota 2 against bots because playing against actual humans is cause to
weep in despair.

------
JansjoFromIkea
You're as likely to get a major game developer making a pessimistic game as
your are to get Disney funding the next Bela Tarr film. You're only going to
get someone doing it recreationally to any kind of well developed level if
they have absolutely huge personal involvement (e.g. That Dragon Cancer).

The issue isn't even that there needs to be more pessimistic games, they're
being made and they're gradually getting to a point where they're not
pathetically behind other mediums in terms of emotional depth. What there
needs to be is an easier means of developing interactive experiences so people
can explore different vibes without feeling a need to attain some kind of
fiscal reward from their efforts.

------
fnord123
Tetris, Paper's Please, Nidhogg, Skifree, etc.

>and sinking 200 hours into World of Warcraft isn’t going to do anything other
than entertain me and make Blizzard Activision’s pockets one one billionth of
a percentile deeper.

Is that not pessimistic gaming?

~~~
IggleSniggle
Well said. All these loot box games are astounding upfront pessimistic, many
of them even parodying themselves as they try to extract the next nickel using
their Skinner box. I occasionally play them, and am always left with this
weird mix of dopamine and existential despair.

------
coding123
I'd love to see a game that takes us through the choices and options available
to a homeless person - and especially get the feeling that nobody cares about
you and spits on you. I don't think the general population realizes this
aspect of life. So start there but make sure there is something to attain.
Like a homeless person that could be rewarded 1 million for saving the life of
a kidnapped teen. But after the reward is given, even then mistrust happens
and people think you kidnapped the kid... Would be fun for me if not
depressing at times.

Also in the style of GTA obviously.

------
yellowapple
I feel like The Stanley Parable falls into this category. The game's ability
to account for seemingly every deviation a player may want to take from the
as-narrated story means that any attempt on the player's part to exert free
will won't actually succeed; at best, you'll end up at a stalemate between you
and the narrator. And yeah, there are "happy" endings, but none that make you
really feel like you've "won".

------
AdmiralAsshat
The author would probably enjoy Pathologic.[0][1]

[0][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathologic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathologic)

[1][https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/04/10/butchering-
patho...](https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/04/10/butchering-pathologic-
part-1-the-body/)

------
gnosis89
There are plenty of pessimistic games that portray the hell of life. This guy
is either desensitized to it or has only played Nintendo his whole life.

~~~
moate
The longer this post has been up, the more I'm realizing that there are a ton
of games that fit this mold. There's no massive $100Mil+ budget games that
really do it, and that's fine. These games aren't meant to be massive money
makers, but more expand on the types of stories you're able to tell in the
medium.

------
Const-me
Max Payne 1 and 2 tell a story of man revenging after his wife and newborn
daughter are brutally murdered.

Grand Theft Auto 4’s main protagonist has survived a civil war, and it shows.
The story ain’t particularly optimistic either.

“This War of Mine” tells a story of group of civilians trying to survive in
the warzone.

“Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice” main protagonist has severe schizophrenia.

These are amazing games, despite overly pessimistic and even depressing.

------
xedarius
Detroit become human is an amazing example of storytelling and emotional
character involvement.

The game takes no prisoners and the decisions you make can mean a rather bleak
end to your characters and more importantly your story arc. There is no going
back, what happens happens.

There is however an opportunity for glory (depending on your perspective of
glory).

This is what games should capture, the bitter and the sweet.

------
watwut
There are pessimistic and great books, pessimistic and great movies,
pessimistic and great music, so there is zero reason to reject the idea of
pessimistic game. I think I would like that. I used to like all the above, so
I think the game would fly too.

Btw, Nihilumbra is pretty good pessimistic game.

But also, I think that if one looks closely into various niches, pessimistic
games will be found.

------
falcolas
"Need" aside, someone has to pay for those pessimistic games. In the end,
that's the biggest impediment to experimental games. Games simply cost more
time and money to make than a book, and sometimes more than a full blown
movie.

If you want more pessimistic games, you will need to fund them, somehow.

------
DrNuke
I love these sort of games, there are a number just now and available on many
platforms by indie artists & studios, even on Steam. On the other hand,
blockbusters mainly provide fun, escapism or special effects, they are
tailored on the masses and rightly so.

------
TeMPOraL
How about making life more like games, instead of making games more like life?
Can we do this somehow?

I've been pondering this a bit recently. We immerse ourselves in stories
because, good or bad, they're _more interesting_ than real life. The
protagonists, the antagonists, the NPCs - they all (are written to) feel their
role is important, unlike us real-worlders, struggling with ennui and the role
of a cog in a machine (or a single cell in a large, multicellular body). We've
built a civilization and economy that diminishes the role of an individual,
and yet our brains crave the feeling of being a hero of a story.

I remember Eliezer had some smart observations on the topic; I guess it's time
to re-read his "Fun Theory" sequence[0].

\--

[0] - [https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/K4aGvLnHvYgX9pZHS/the-fun-
th...](https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/K4aGvLnHvYgX9pZHS/the-fun-theory-
sequence)

------
megous
Far Cry 5? I mean the game ends by you being trapped for the rest of your life
with a creepy guy you tried to defeat for the previous 30 hours. Also all the
people yoy've been helping in the main/side quests are dead.

------
ekianjo
There's enough games out there to fill about every genre and emotion. Why do
we "need" to decide anything about something as large as games? Let the market
decide what people want.

------
kingosticks
Are there any games out there you play through seemingly as the hero only to
find out after x hours of 'saving the world' that you were, in fact, not?
Something like the film Memento?

~~~
moate
Knights of the Old Republic had a pretty great twist. You still wind up being
the hero, but it's still a real pull the rug out moment.

------
Tepix
Talking about pessimistic games, are there any good simulations/games about
fighting climate change in the next century or so? Seems like it would be a
very interesting topic.

~~~
js8
Not sure, AFAIK there really isn't one.

SimEarth can be made to simulate global warming, but it is very dated (and the
Gaia hypothesis is wrong).

Some versions of Civilization can somewhat simulate AGW, I believe, too.

From the recent ones, Eco and Block'n'hood have ecological themes. Haven't
played the first, the second is only local ecosystem.

------
fouc
Some great pessimistic games:

\- Papers, Please

\- Oregon Trail

~~~
coding123
But in Oregon trail you can win, so I'd call it a normal game.

~~~
fouc
I was just joking a bit, on account of how easy it is to die or have family
members die for horribly realistic reasons :)

~~~
coding123
Oh that is true I suppose :)

------
pattisapu
Just play Nethack.

------
platz
I think the author meant to say meaningful rather than pessimistic.

Something meaningful may necessarily have some pessemism in it.

Games today are not meaningful

~~~
moviuro
> Games today are not meaningful

Where does that come from? Top of my head: some meaningful games below:

\- Deck Nine released Life is Strange in 2015, Before the Storm in 2017 ; Life
is Strange 2's first episode was released on September, 27th.

\- Mass Effect makes you think about your place in a very, very vast Universe,
the consequences of choices, even though you're a "hero" (2007, 2010, 2012).

