
Drink Cheap Wine - prostoalex
http://www.slate.com/articles/life/drink/2011/11/why_you_should_be_drinking_cheap_wine.html?wpsrc=fol_fb
======
antirez
This article is the contrary of everything I believe about wine :-) In Italy
with 15 euro a bottle you can purchase one of the _Italian Great Wines_ , not
an everyday wine, like a bottle of Siant Michel Appian or similar very very
good wine. What starts to be blurry is what you get with a 150 euro bottle
compared to a 20 euro bottle... But in the 10-15 range there are awesome wines
that you don't find if you descend in the 5-7 euro range, for example. Around
7-10 you can still, if you have the skills and drive, find good wines, but in
the same range there is also garbage. Now, does it make sense to drink
garbage? If you ask me, never in your life. So I drink 10-20 euros wins at
home, alone, if I want to drink wine. Don't drink cheap wine, nor bad coffe,
or trash food. Drink and eat less maybe, which is going to work for your
health. Life is too short.

~~~
Intermernet
> in the 10-15 range there are awesome wines that you don't find if you
> descend in the 5-7 euro range

I'd second this, and say that the most interesting and various wines can be
found around the 15 euro mark.

In Australia (Where red wine snobs like myself abound) the best local wines
are usually around the $20 mark. You _can_ pay hundreds of dollars for Grange,
but if you're going to spend that money I'd prefer to go for something like
the Wild Duck Creek Duck Muck (Awesome wine, way too expensive).

My current favorite is actually the Artigiano Primitivo from Puglia in Italy.
$17 at the local bottle shop, and absolutely brilliant :-)

For those interested in Californian Zinfandels I'd highly recommend looking
into Primitivos:

"In 1993, Meredith used a DNA fingerprinting technique to confirm that
Primitivo and Zinfandel are clones of the same variety. Comparative field
trials have found that "Primitivo selections were generally superior to those
of Zinfandel, having earlier fruit maturity, similar or higher yield, and
similar or lower bunch rot susceptibility.""

[1]:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinfandel#Relationship_to_Primi...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinfandel#Relationship_to_Primitivo.2C_Crljenak_Ka.C5.A1telanski_and_Tribidrag)

~~~
antirez
Thanks for the hints!

------
JesperRavn
The author claims that being able to distinguish expensive wines from cheap
ones simply means that a person has developed an arbitrary preference drive by
the wine industry. They article even explicitly states "wine is not art".

I don't buy this at all. Almost everyone can relate to some field where they
have more sophisticated tastes than the average person, whether it's music,
art, food or wine (EDIT: how could I forget coffee). By the author's logic, we
should all eat McDonalds or Panda Express.

I'm not claiming that expensive wine is objectively better, but rather that
people with experience and knowledge have a different taste to the average
person, and this difference isn't just arbitrary, but reflects a deeper
understanding and appreciation.

~~~
nether
The weird thing with wines is there's no consensus in blind tastings as to
what constitutes a superior wine. Judges' ratings end up all over the map.
With teas in the North American Tea Championship, which employs blind cupping,
there _is_ consistent consensus in that certain brands (usually smaller, not
Lipton) beat out other brands by large margins by judges who agree. How does
wine end up being so impenetrable that connoisseurship confers such
inconsistent evaluations? Can we even discern a "deeper understanding" if that
means liking/disliking wines at random? I mean what if a movie critic placed
2001: A Space Odyssey in the same league as Backdoor Sluts 9? We'd conclude
rightly he's full of shit.

I think what we're really running into are the egos of oenophiles.

~~~
danieltillett
I think the problem with most blind tastings is they are done as part of huge
tasting events. Personally if I taste more than 4 or 5 wines at at time my
palate gets "tired" and my opinion of the wine becomes very different to what
I think of it after tasting it on its own.

This is a problem when you go to a wine event and try a whole bunch of
different wines and decide to buy a couple of cases of the 9th or 10th wine
you tasted. I will no longer buy wine after more than 5 tastings because I
don't trust my judgement anymore. I really have no idea how any judge can
taste 80 wines in a day and pick anything good.

~~~
headgasket
you need to spit it and eat in between (preferably amidon laden stuff) to keep
sharp taste buds connected to a clear mind. Especially if you are going to
commit to a couple of cases.

~~~
danieltillett
I have tried this and it helps, but I really don't trust my palate's judgment
after tasting too many wines as once.

Talking about palate destroying I once bought a wine (mid priced) that had
such a terrible taste that I instantly rang to the sink to spit it out. The
truly diabolic thing about this wine is it made any wine tasted for hours
after this taste terrible as well (I opened 4 different wines I knew well over
3 hours as I could not believe such an effect was possible). No food or any
drink could get rid of the effect. I always thought this would be the perfect
wine to enter into a tasting competition.

------
spangry
From a statistical analysis of wine competitions, found at
[http://www.letastevin.org/Hodgson%202009%20Analysis%20of%20c...](http://www.letastevin.org/Hodgson%202009%20Analysis%20of%20concordance%20among%2013%20us%20wine%20competitions.pdf)
:

"An examination of the results of 13 U.S. wine competitions shows that (1)
there is almost no consensus among the 13 wine competitions regarding wine
quality, (2) for wines receiving a Gold medal in one or more competitions, it
is very likely that the same wine received no award at another, (3) the
likelihood of receiving a Gold medal can be statistically explained by chance
alone."

I'm not a 'wine person', so don't find this issue interesting. Different
people, even 'expert judges', have different subjective experiences for a
variety of reasons. Even if 'greater enjoyment' is simply a product of
cognitive bias, the reasons are largely irrelevant. The relevant part is that
they _do_ enjoy it more, even if others might consider the reason
'irrational'.

I think this issue only becomes interesting (and objective facts important) if
there's some ethical line being crossed (like wilful misleading conduct by the
producer e.g. monster cables).

------
nowarninglabel
As a connoisseur of cheap red wine (about 5 bottles a week split much like
mentioned in the article), as well as an occasional drinker of fine red Napa
wines, I'd like to argue that one should try the suggestion, however there are
two key caveats.

Much like most things in life, there are plenty of _bad_ cheap wines just like
there are acceptable or even _good_ cheap wines.

Which leads nicely to the second point: find a few wines that you like and
enjoy them. Everybody has different tastes and there are so many varietals and
vintners that it's really impossible to say one trumps another in all
respects.

That said, there are still some key differences that will affect taste of wine
that can drive up the cost, such as barrel aging in fine oak barrels, and if
you enjoy the taste that imparts then you are naturally going to be paying
more for your wine no matter who bottles it (same for organic wine, fair
trade, some varietals and special vintages, etc.)

More info on that breakdown in price is available here:
[http://winefolly.com/tutorial/truth-cheap-vs-expensive-
wine/](http://winefolly.com/tutorial/truth-cheap-vs-expensive-wine/) and here:
[http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/09/dining/why-wine-costs-
what...](http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/09/dining/why-wine-costs-what-it-
does.html)

Just don't let anyone tell you what wine to drink, discover it for yourself!

~~~
nether
Have you done any blind tastings?

~~~
nowarninglabel
Yes actually! They're fun, have done one in EU and here in California. I'm not
a wine judge though, just a consumer. To further my point above, I found that
there were good wines from all price points. It's all about finding what you
love and enjoying it.

------
beloch
"If hints of cassis, subtle earthiness, and jammy notes don’t interest you,
you are not a lesser person. "

Here's a nice tip: Buy cheap wine _and_ crème de cassis. Crème de cassis is an
intensely flavored liquer made from blackcurrants (and loads of sugar). One of
it's original uses was as a "condiment" for cheap wine. Some cafes used to put
it out so customers could add it to their wine if they didn't like the wine.
Today, the mixture of Cassis and white wine is called Kir, which is one of the
most popular cocktails in France. A little cassis makes a good wine better,
and a lot makes even a terrible wine possible to drink.

~~~
greggman
You might find it interesting that crème de cassis is the top mixer in Japan.
Nearly every bar and drinking place serves crème de cassis and orange juice as
well as crème de cassis and oolong tea. Both are great and I'm a little
surprised crème de cassis is so rare in the USA. Many bars have a bottle but
it is rarely used.

~~~
beloch
Yeah, it's weird how unpopular it is in North America, except for Quebec.
Quebec even produces the stuff, but good luck finding Quebecois crème de
cassis (which is damned good) in Western Canada.

Warning: crème de cassis does go off if it's on the shelf for long enough. It
doesn't get better with age. Try to buy it from a place where the bottles
don't have too much dust on them.

------
lorddoig
This argument can be extended to any luxury good - why buy a Porsche when a VW
will get you there? Why buy a silk sweater when you've a perfectly serviceable
woollen hand-me-down?

Obviously these things are not equivalent. The car you buy, the sweater you
wear, and the wine you drink are a few of the many little things that make a
person who they are - in a sense, they're the distinctions that comprise the
very essence of culture. What is a person (when viewed through another's eyes)
if not the product of the decisions they make? And what is knowing someone, if
not having an understanding of how they reach their decisions?

Not all wine is created equal - that's just true. Like food, code, art, music,
and math, it's a thing that becomes more appreciable with knowledge. A lot of
people would be just as impressed by a+b=c as they would be by Euler's
identity, the Zeta function, or e=mc^2: normal people don't go around talking
about the beauty of math, and yet those that know about it are captivated by
it. It's the same story with Lispers and "Maxwell's equations of software".
Are they deluded? No. Is it completely subjective and worthless? No - there is
real, objective awesomeness in these examples.

Wine is not math or Lisp, but it's also not 100% bullshit (probably more like
60%.) This article is just another _" please be like me"_ appeal, and they're
getting dull now. There's potentially a lot of joy to be had by liberating
your tastebuds from the likes of Gallo. $5/btl wine is not great stuff - it
was probably a grape less than a month ago, and when you take into account
vineyard margin, distributor margin, retail margin, the bottle, labelling,
taxes, and shipping, you find the actual liquid in the bottle was created for
pennies. It's treated with additives, flavourings, and sugar to make it both
palatable and consistent: the grape is but a substrate. Like pink slime.
$5/btl wine is the 1990's McNugget of the booze world. Each and every bottle
is a shrine to engineered mediocrity.

~~~
MrGando
I agree with everything you said, except that in some countries like France,
wine is -by definition- not a luxury good. And I would dare to say, that
culturally is not treated like that either.

In other places, like my country of origin Chile, wine is actually legally a
luxury good. It has a luxury good tax, and it's culturally viewed as a luxury
good by most of the Chilean society.

I would like wine to be a closer thing for people in my Country and here in
the States. Like a good book that your local bookstore could suggest you to
read could change your life. A good wine, recommended by your local -serious-
cavista could change your life too.

In a society that's pretty much immersed in Fast Food and Soda, this would be
like a refreshing breeze of cool air :)

~~~
lorddoig
> A good wine, recommended by your local -serious- cavista could change your
> life too.

Which did it for you?

~~~
MrGando
My adventure with wine got serious when I actually noticed that I had been
drinking crap. I was fortunate to try a Pichon Longueville Comtesse de Lalande
1990 like 6 years ago. That wine is from Bordeaux, and even if I don't drink
Bordeaux actively anymore, it marked my life.

There are a lot of wines that have marked me and my taste, and most of them
are not expensive.

-> Louis Antoine Luyt "País de Quenehuao" got me into natural wine. (10 bucks in Chile)

-> Domaine Ostertag "Riesling" Got me into white wine. (~20 bucks?)

-> Kenjiro Kagami "Poulsard" Domaine De Miroirs, showed me how edgy and how much tension a wine could have. (maybe 30 bucks)

I could elaborate for hours, like good books, a lot of wines that I tasted are
memories that I hold deeply in my heart.

I was also lucky enough to meet a great group of people who helped me to shape
my own taste, suggest new exciting stuff or even share great bottles with
me...

------
hans_mueller
>Europeans seem perfectly comfortable cracking open a 1-euro tetra-pak of wine
for guests. Germans, for example, pay just $1.79 on average for a bottle of
wine.

I stopped reading here, b/c that's simply not correct. It's true that most
people don't spend more than 5 Euro on wine and that you get great wine around
that. But except for students getting ready for a binge, nobody considers
tetra packed alcoholic grape juice as wine.

------
ChaoticGood
I wouldn't make the mistake of mixing cheap with value. What you value might
just be cheap but more often then not it is a bargain.

The first time I drank with a multi millionaire we were having a jammy value
buy called Seven Deadly Zins and Monkey Bay Sauvignon Blanc. Those two data
points were his sessionable bargain buys and I loved the taste too.

Personally, I have also enjoyed a bottle of Opus One but later on discovered
those same taste characteristics in a Spanish Garnacha blend I believe to be
re labeled as Atteca. I should have bought a case of that stuff it was an
amazing find and had legs for days.

My findings are that below a tenner is cheap stuff waiting to become a
vinaigrette of regret in form of buyers remorse. Around the 14usd mark is
where value van be found. Such as Trader Joe's seasonal reserve offering they
put out for New Years. When a vintner puts their name on the offering and
takes the care to select the best grapes of the season then you can taste the
bargain.

Wanting to taste a bottle of Amarone, my next bargain finding adventure has
led me here: Father and Son Amarone Tasting Episode #800 Wine Library TV 2010
17:00 minutes
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9wUxIdIosg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9wUxIdIosg)
TL;DW 2005 Tommasi Amarone

------
headgasket
This is funny, reading this sipping on a cheap Californian wine I got at the
local grocery store because it was too late to hit the SAQ ( you see, good
wine is the prerogative of government retailing in the Belle Province
(Quebec), a bit like the Sweedish poster I just read. There's good sides and
bad sides to that, one of the bad sides is government workers dont tend to
work long hours... oh well).

Not sayin californians have not learned a thing or two about wines in the last
100 years; in fact I've drank IMHO outstanding wines from the west coast,
especially from Walla Walla valley. The've also nailed the champagne technique
100% in my books.

Just saying that the guys in Bordeaux and in Piedmont have been at the red
wine thing for the last 2000 years, pre any marketing-to-unsuspecting-masses
techniques. The best analogy I've read here is music; sometimes musak is fine
(the elevator, the grocery store etc) sometimes I wish I could tune it out.
YMMV. But I just cant stop telling Charlie Parker or Dave Brubeck from the
rest; so dont listen to them if you dont want to be disappointed on your next
elevator ride!

:-)

Cheers!! F

------
dennish00a
Sure, if you are looking for a beverage, then buy cheap wine, have a soda, or
drink some water. All are tasty and thirst quenching!

If you are fascinated by wine as art, though, you are going to be looking for
something /interesting/\-- unique and handcrafted. And those qualities always
cost money, because you are paying for somebody's effort and talent. If you
love good cooking, for example, you don't eat instant ramen every night. You
go out to have fun and see what the most inventive chefs are doing.

Bare Bottle is a startup trying to bring this creative aspect to the fore, by
pairing great winemakers and designers
([http://barebottle.com](http://barebottle.com)). Both artists involved are
"great" because they are creative originals who make something unique, not
merely because they produce something acceptable to wash down your ramen.

Disclosure: I am a co-founder of Bare Bottle.

------
mhomde
There's this really interesting concept of "experience stretching" in Dan
Gilbert's book "Stumbling on happiness". That as you refine your taste you
demote everything else. When you've been to Hawaii your local resort won't
seem so good. When you start drinking expensive wine everything else taste
like swill.

The question of course, is it a good thing to indulge in experience stretching
or should one not try things that we'll miss.

I always had the feeling that of course we should strive for constant
refinement, atleast within some boundaries rather than stay ignorant... but
it's not always the easiest route when your taste start to outmatch your
capabilities and wallet :)

------
DarkTree
I think it's unfair to compare U.S. consumption with that of Europe. It is a
much larger part of the culture to casually drink a glass of wine with, let's
say lunch, than it is to do so in the U.S. Because of this, it makes sense
that Europeans don't place too much social stock in high quality, expensive
wine when providing for guest. As an American, I drink wine typically on
special occasions or nice, intimate dinners.. so of course I'll shell out a
little extra because it's part of the sentiment.

------
mhomde
That's one of the (few) things that is good about the monopoly in Sweden,
awesome wine for cheap price (9-10$). Since they negotiate for whole of Sweden
they get good prices. We also have a tier system where only the best selling
wines remain in "tier 1" (every shop).

Due to the proclivities of Swedish people drinking wine-in-a-box (in a park)
it's also resulted in us having above normal quality selection of boxed wines.

Spirits are damn expensive though... and you can't buy anything cold, or on a
sunday :)

------
MrGando
I've been seriously into wine for several years now. I've been very lucky and
tried a lot of stuff. From pretty expensive, to super cheap.

First of all, this article is completely flawed.

Don't drink cheap wine, drink -good wine-.

Good wine, doesn't have to be expensive though. Like literature, wine is
subjective, so what you may find entertaining or good today, may change
tomorrow. That's why when you really like wine, you should try to keep an open
mind and keep tasting everything you can.

The wine industry in the states is super stalled, and there's almost nothing
interesting and fresh going on here, at least it's been like that since the
2000's. There are a lot of factors in play, but the biggest one is the price
of land which makes it harder for smaller and better producers (vignerons) to
actually farm their grapes.

The small guys, end up buying grapes and trying to find guys who are farming
properly, etc etc. Which is super hard here. In California, dry farming is
almost non-existent... pesticides are the rule, and high yields the norm.

There are other regions around the world that are pretty stalled too. Bordeaux
is one of those regions, super predictable, super standardized and most of the
time boring. At least that's the case if you're looking to drink a statement
or the 'work' of a true Vigneron.

'Cheap and Good' wine in California can be found in the 15 range... but I've
found that most of the smaller producers find it hard to produce surprising
stuff for less than 20-25. Where in France/Italy, a similar quality could be
achieved on a 10-15 Euros Bottle.

Bottom line, drink good wine. Good wine, is not necessarily expensive and it's
totally worth the adventure of finding it. Bad wine can be pretty bad for your
health, and it's a waste of time.

------
gabesullice
The issue I see here is that a cheap bottle of wine in France is not the same
quality as a similarly priced bottle in the US. Per capita demand is so much
higher in Europe and a more saturated supply has risen to meet it. Firms
compete on quality and consistency as prices have approached cost.

In the US, a cheap bottle of wine really is of lower quality.

~~~
fiblye
Well, according to the judges of a wine tasting competition in California, a
$2 bottle of wine is the absolute best you can get. [1] I've seen countless
reports of cheap wine outperforming or equalling expensive wines in blind
taste tests, but I've yet to see a report of people preferring expensive wine
without knowing the price beforehand.

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Shaw_wine#Awards](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Shaw_wine#Awards)

------
danieltillett
I wish that I could not tell the difference between cheap and expensive wine.
What I would say is that there is plenty of bad wine that is expensive, but
very little good wine that is cheap.

My wife who has a good palate, but who takes no notice of what wine is what
(effectively she tastes everything blind), can instantly pick if I try and
sneak in a cheap wine. I get responses along the line of "this wine is not
very good - can you open a bottle of that wine we had last week instead?". So
far I have not been able to fool her once out of more than a dozen tries :(

One reason to avoid the absolutely bottom end wines even if you can't tell the
difference is that these wines will be much more likely to give you a massive
hangover. I have had some really cheap wines that one glass is enough to make
you feel like you had consumed two bottles on your own.

------
einarvollset
Drink cheap wine, enjoy buzzfeed, don't worry about reading the classics, fuck
Mozart because you know best. Even without even remotely investigating the
subject. Just like all programmers are geeks, there is no beauty or art in
programming. Because you know best. No need to investigate.

~~~
headgasket
wow. I'll drink to that to. Viva la revolution. Cheers!

------
blottsie
The taste of wine is not the only quality of wine.

Like 2001, The Great Gadsby, The Dark Side of the Moon, or Guernica, wine can
embody life beyond how much (or little) you enjoy it. The details—"hints of
cassis, subtle earthiness, and jammy notes"—do not determine its quality
either.

It is its history, its vigor, the revealed clues of its past—the flavors and
smells that drive you to wildness and longing. A good wine makes your
reminisce; a great wine makes you question.

The author assumes that a pleasurable taste trumps all, and that price comes
in a close second. And it likely does for most buyers—but that says more about
us than it does about wine. People are not art.

Can you get a cheap wine that tastes good? Of course. But expect to get a
poster of the Mona Lisa rather than the real thing.

------
bshimmin
This just seems like an ill-informed piece written by someone who is
determined not to enjoy wine. If cheap wine tastes okay to you, buy cheap
wine. If you can detect and appreciate a difference in more expensive wine -
that's _you_ , not "studies" or the "wine industry experts" sneered at in this
article - then buy more expensive wine, if you can afford it and it seems like
a priority in your life.

------
ChuckMcM
This is kind of silly. Drink wine that you like to drink. I would certainly
not recommend avoiding a wine because of its price but for any widely
distributed bottles generally places like CostCo seem to be consistently
priced reasonably. And if you like it, buy a case, if you don't don't. The
thing about most wines is that if they aren't a blend they don't taste the
same harvest to harvest.

------
pwarner
A fun look at the cost to produe wine. How does wine get to $100 / bottle at
retail:
[http://www.coffaro.com/BrendansTruth.html](http://www.coffaro.com/BrendansTruth.html)

Pretty accurate based on what I see price wise as a hobby winemaker. You can
make good wine for $5 per bottle in your garage (assuming your time and garage
are free!)

------
Lost_BiomedE
I had a great and likely subsidized Lafite wine in Vegas. The bouquet went
into my nose like a tasty explosion filling my entire head. This is even when
I had issue with sinusitis. It changed my view of wines forever with one
glass. If I find a cheap wine like this...

------
A_La_Vache
I've been in the wine business for 23 years. Currently I'm battling to tame a
vineyard in Northern Burgundy, all by hand (as I have no money for such
luxuries as Tractors).

I'm sure as hell going to be asking for a fair price for the wine at the end
of it.

~~~
headgasket
Congrats. horticulteur and hacker, I'll drink to that. Keep up with your
vision!

------
Too
It's funny that they show the blender-trick. Have anyone tried this? From what
I've heard it can turn an awful wine into something passable but it also turns
good wine into bad. Basically all wines blended will taste flat and the same.

------
jmspring
Where my wife and I generally explore more expensive wines are when we indulge
at Michelin * restaurants, or similar -- maybe 2x a year. We generally find
taste depends on what we are eating, and rather than ordering the wine paring
for a course/near, taste and evaluate as we go. Note, the only Michelin *
restaurants we've been to are in the states.

When we travel Europe, give us local.

Local Bay Area, little difference for $20ish and $40ish local bottles.

------
elwell
Thankfully, beer isn't so inflated. You can try almost every interesting beer
out there under $30.

------
headgasket
in true experience I have to say that there can be (there not automatically
is) much more to a 80$ bottle from pomerol than to a 22000$ phone.

------
michaelchisari
_If you and your significant other were to drink five bottles of wine a week_

That's 12 1/2 to 15 glasses of wine a week. I'm hardly a teetotaler, but that
seems excessive.

~~~
leif
A bottle is usually about 4 glasses (which is consistent with my experience,
not sure how you made your calculation), so when shared, that's one to drink
with the meal and one to share over conversation after. I'm far from a
teetotaler, but it doesn't seem terribly excessive when phrased that way.

It may depend on your upbringing. In the modern US, particularly the more
puritan regions, any alcohol at all is usually considered a luxury reserved
for celebration, but in some parts of the world, wine or beer is just the
drink you drink with a meal, and there's less of a stigma about it. If it's
not your thing, it's not your thing, but applying the label "excess" is a
pretty specifically cultural decision.

~~~
michaelchisari
A single serving of wine is 4 to 5 ounces. Don't base it off of restaurant
pours, they often over-pour to compensate for the high markup.

A bottle is at least 25 ounces. Split between two people, that's 2.5 to 3.125
glasses of wine per person per bottle. 5 times a week, that's 12.5 to over 15
ounces.

I'm in the US, but from an Italian family. Wine was on the table often,
especially around my extended family. I enjoy whiskey, and I've been into
savory hard ciders since I found out beer is out of the question. Like I said,
hardly a teetotaler.

Yet I'm under no illusions that drinking 15 servings of alcohol a week
regularly is recommended. If someone were drinking that much, that
consistently, their physician would definitely recommend that they cut their
consumption considerably.

[http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-
con...](http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-
consumption/moderate-binge-drinking)

------
blackout
The guy who wrote this is a total barbarian...

