
VCs, don't compare me to your wife - hodgesmr
https://medium.com/life-tips/vcs-don-t-compare-me-to-your-wife-just-don-t-9dc2c8c1ac93
======
sarahnadav
So, I wrote the article and the thing that is the most interesting to me is
that I am getting an incredible amount of positive responses to my post
(outside of HN). Especially from women who feel like I expressed something
that they are struggling with.

We want to be taken seriously for our companies and our minds. All we want is
to walk into the room and be an entrepreneur. Not a woman, or looked at
through the lens of a "wife" or "mother"

I don't know if it is the anonymity, but the discussion here seems so
negative. With a lot of cheap shots at me, and hell of a lot of assumptions
made. Really lacking in nuance and honestly- lacking in respect.

This was hard for me to write. It has been hard for me to deal with and I
didn't take a cheap shot at the VC. I could have ruined his life/career but I
just wanted to make a point, and show people what women have to deal with in
an honest and frank manner.

~~~
thebiglebrewski
See my other comment but I wanted to let you know that I am glad you posted
this and I think there's a lot of value to pointing this kind of thing out. I
have no idea what kind of business you're trying to start or whether or not it
is a good or fundable idea but I do hope that you get to the finish line
you're trying to get to - good luck!

~~~
sarahnadav
Thanks so much! I have a startup in stealth mode and it is funded. It is early
days but this is my second funded startup and I see this as being much better
than my first. I'll be making it all public soon.

I closed my first startup because I didn't feel like I could fight on both
levels- having to fight the odds to launch a successful company while fighting
the industry itself.

I could only come back in, if I came in swinging. So I am taking it all on and
I feel ready for it now. That is why I am speaking my truth and willing to
take the risks that come along with that. I hope that women coming after me
can just launch their companies without having to deal with all of this crap.

------
andraganescu
jesus christ! what are these comments? there is a valid point here. i don't
even like how the author writes but the point is this, taken from a response:
>> Imagine how many opportunities this firm has walked past because they’re
old school. Shouldn’t their LPs be concerned?

What do you mean "old school?". I am from the other side of the planet than
the US and i am statistically flooded with stories of the problem of under
funding women, with discrimination based on sex and with the pregnancy issue
as a roadblock to career for women. how can a manager in a VC have an "old
school" opinion in 2016? these days you either have one opinion or the other,
there is nothing "new school" in realizing that women are less funded because
their biologic life is seen as a liability by the males of the species who
have all the money. Jesus!! Old school??

Your wife? You are someone who should be smart enough to predict success and
you bet other people's money but you know so little about a woman's
determination that your best answer is by proxying to your nearest women.

This is like me having a billion dollars explaining that i believe rockets are
not funded as easily as dating apps because I am old school and i think all
physicists are nerdy introverts and they'll never be good at running a
business because they rather stay and read science fiction books all day long,
and i know that because my physicist cousin who is also a drunk is exactly
like that.

And quotas? Who is even talking about quotas? Amazing!

~~~
yummyfajitas
_This is like me having a billion dollars explaining that i believe rockets
are not funded as easily as dating apps because I am old school and i think
all physicists are nerdy introverts and they 'll never be good at running a
business..._

A direct translation of the VC's theory would be that "that's [nerd
hypothesis] why I think there are less nerd founders...which translates to
less funded companies by nerds". Fewer apply so fewer are accepted.

------
refurb
_Entrepreneurs - and we are a totally different breed of human being than just
about anyone else._

Anyone else cringe at this part?

~~~
mc32
It's hyperbolic, stilted, but not necessarily cringeworthy. It comes from the
perspective of someone who believes they have been treated unfairly.

It's like when you go on an interview for a job and you say something, the
interviewer understands it one way, you try to correct them, but you know
their fist take is the one which will linger and you feel it's unfair.

~~~
romanovcode
>It comes from the perspective of someone who believes they have been treated
unfairly.

It comes off as someone who is very pretentious.

------
tommynicholas
These threads on HN are always extremely rough to read. I wonder what would
need to happen for a more productive conversation around this topic to be
possible? More participation, more moderation, better understanding, what
would it take?

~~~
sarahnadav
I think that a lot of these conversations are happening at "Women in Tech"
events and it would be great if there was a way for men to be more of a part
of that

~~~
dominotw
> it would be great if there was a way for men to be more of a part of that

I for one am too scared that I might blurt out something offensive
inadvertently and get labeled a 'misogynist' which can pretty damning to one's
career and something you cannot defend yourself against. All it takes is one
person with an agenda to tarnish your reputation forever. I don't want someone
tweeting at my employer with "are you ok with this .."

thanks but No thanks. I am going stay far far away from "women in tech"
business .

~~~
sarahnadav
There has to be a more and better inclusive model. Because we really need to
all learn how to get past this

~~~
dominotw
>There has to be a more and better inclusive model.

What are some of your thoughts around how to achieve this.

~~~
sarahnadav
I am not really happy with "Women in Tech" movement in general, I think that
it should be broader and more focused on diversity.

So, I would like to see events that are more focused on bringing people
together.

~~~
dominotw
Agreed. I know that when I am speaking to a "women in tech" I know that my
every word would be put under microscope. I am a result of society like
everyone else with its baises and prejudices.

So instead of talking about and examining my/our own prejudices, i have to
pretend to be a morally infallible saint who is incapable of thinking "wrong"
thoughts.

------
xlm1717
> When you ask me about having it all, or how am I going to manage my kids, I
> seriously think that you are insane. Because in my head, I can’t imagine a
> scenario where you trust someone with millions of dollars to run a business
> but think that they don’t know how to deal with childcare.

Is that not why they ask the question then?? If they don't think someone can
handle childcare, then the author is right, they won't trust that person with
millions of dollars.

~~~
tkt
I disagree that that's an appropriate or useful question, but if the VC truly
thinks it is (and it's even actually legal), then shouldn't they ask all their
potential entrepreneurs this question?

~~~
smm2000
Not sure about legality of asking but woman statistically (80%+) are main
caregivers to kids so asking this question only for females make sense.

It works both ways though - one well known company gives 4 month leave to
primary caregiver and only 2 weeks to secondary on child birth. If you are
female - you get it by default. If you are father and not single one at that -
good luck. Every single person (from your boss down) will ask you why you are
primary caregiver.

~~~
rustynails
"asking this question only for females make sense"

This is a dangerous attitude. One other poster talked about "old school" but
the truth is that things haven't improved for anyone. It's attitudes like this
quote that are indicative of how it's always been - some people are sexist and
some people are not.

We should not justify differentiating genders. People who do this(eg.
Australian police who are mandating 50% female employees, regardless of
suitability) should have the book thrown at them. In this day and age, gender
should not be a variable in almost any job.

------
jdonaldson
I wouldn't want to invest in or work for someone who was so quick to play the
victim card.

~~~
CatDevURandom
Where is she playing the victim, exactly?

~~~
speeder
The conversation that made her post the rant was obviously she asked the guy
why there is less women entrepreneurs, the guy made clear he was uncomfortable
with the questions and replied with a reply that is common sense ( ie: most
women aren't entrepreneurs, thus there is less women wanting vc money) and she
took offense at the reply.

~~~
CatDevURandom
I agree his comments were taken out of context.

I don't see where "the guy made clear he was uncomfortable" but I could guess
he probably was. And again, it probably was taken out of context. However,

I don't see how his reply, in any shape or form is common sense. And it
explicitly not the reason you give. "( ie: most women aren't entrepreneurs,
thus there is less women wanting vc money)". He actually says, the reason is
women are being mothers. That's why. But he's just old fashioned. And then
guesses that most women prioritize that "[my wife] would rather be a mother
and be with our kids" with respect to # of female ent.

And she took offense to that -- and so do I.

~~~
csomar
# I'm the wrong person to ask

------
hitekker
Much like confessing a dark secret, breaking-up, asking someone out, etc, my
policy has never been to initiate or allow any serious, longwinded
conversation over mobile/phone text.

------
yummyfajitas
Wait a second. Is this author saying that as a woman, she _doesn 't_ have any
special insight into female users, isn't closer to the female audience, and
doesn't bring any special female viewpoints into tech?

And in fact, the only similarity between her and another person is if the
person is also an entrepreneur? There is no special female perspective, and
therefore we don't get diversity of viewpoints or other cognitive benefits
just by having more women?

That sure seems to contradict the narrative.

~~~
ntakasaki
Have you read the entire thing? It's about comparing them to VCs wives,
presumably housewives, not about a special female perspective on, say a female
focused startup, but being compared to a female who wants to be in a
traditional role in a patriarchal society. Not sure how any one can miss it as
badly as you did.

~~~
yummyfajitas
I read it. She's ranting about something else - a VC suggesting he has no
female-founded companies in his portfolio because very few apply - and somehow
this offends her.

But along the way, she claims that "the extent to which she is founding a
company is the extent to which I have something in common with her", which
pretty much contradicts the entire pro-diversity narrative.

~~~
jmagoon
Seems like the part she's pissed at is "I think mothers have more important
things to do...be mothers".

~~~
codingbinary
Which is true, because your child should be your #1 priority. Regardless of
your gender.

~~~
dennisgorelik
What if you have 2 kids? Who should be your #1 priority?

In any case, how important children should be for their parents is not the key
issue here.

The key issue is how you treat your potential investors (preferably with
respect).

------
pavornyoh
I respect the writer drawing this conclusion based on a conversation. But can
we have the chat from the beginning instead of just a few texts starting from
_Honestly- I 'm the wrong person to ask. I think mothers have more important
things to do ... be mothers_?

I am not taking the VC's side but let's see the entire chat then form an
opinion as the said VC isn't here to defend himself.

~~~
adn
I believe the authors argument is that the VC's (or at least this particular
one) use the antiquated idea that "mothers should be mothers" to
subconsciously look down on woman founders who pitch, because they should be
at home "being mothers" instead.

e: this guy said it better
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11105578](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11105578)

------
thebiglebrewski
Just writing this comment because I think @sarahnadav deserves some support
here, from a dude (like myself), but also from the community in general! She
is bringing some shit to light that may have not been seen before. If this is
how one VC is, in one instance, maybe there's a lot that we're not seeing?
This could be just the tip of the iceberg! Maybe other VCs could benefit from
seeing this post and thinking, "I wouldn't want to be that guy in this
conversation, what a jerk".

I'm pretty upset that most of these comments (well, I guess most HN comments
are like this) are trying to be so contrarian - why not just be supportive of
something for once? Is the OP someone with a horrible track record of lying...

...or is she just a woman honestly trying to raise money and start a business,
something many of the posters on here are trying to do as well?

------
Shorel
A VC should focus on the profitability of the investment, everything else is
potentially noise.

~~~
VLM
Nobody wants to discuss stress tests as part of that focus?

Under the assume the best case scenario situation, dude wanted to see how she
responds to ridiculous stress. Well, we have an answer here. Hmm. Wonder what
happens the next time something stressful happens. Some obscure legal thing or
a reviewer makes fun of them or ...

The unfortunate part is being a woman she has an obvious stress test point of
commenting on her gender. I suppose I'd get stress tested by asking how a non-
ivy grad could ever play on a strictly ivy grad playing field. Or they'd make
fun of my kids or ancestry or where I live. Ah I know, I suck because I should
have been born to richer parents, that one is a classic. Anything to see how I
respond to ridiculous stress levels seems like fair game.

Its a little further than your average HR drone would go when interviewing
your average customer service rep, but, its kind of an important stressful
job.

~~~
Shorel
I think you raise a very valid point.

> The unfortunate part is being a woman she has an obvious stress test point
> of commenting on her gender.

We all have stress points. Research has shown men react to stress by isolating
themselves, while women react to stress by looking for the company and support
of their female friends.

Besides the obvious publication of her point of view in search of said
support, her behaviour is more consistent with belief of being entitled to the
VC money than anything else.

~~~
VLM
I think if she had disciplined the VC she'd have her money right now. Or at
least this wouldn't be in the way. One fundamental responsibility of
leadership is disciplining misbehavior. In this case the VC provided a
ridiculous over the top sexist commentary somewhere between illegal and merely
unethical, and instead of standing up for what is right and/or threatening
discipline as best she can, she blogs about a private conversation. Not good
at all. Is that how all ethical problems or discipline problems will be
handled? VCs may as well pile up their money and burn it to save time.

The other side also earns a demerit. Come on, you stress test a female
applicant by going for the girl angle, could you possibly be a little less
creative? Previous people have probably noticed the whole "girl" thing, her
being a female and all that. You could at least try, look into her childhood
or education or management style or past employment or almost anything else to
stress her would have been more creative. Still if a dud torpedo blows her out
of the water, it wasn't really a dud, was it?

And an IM conversation isn't as under pressure as face to face, none the less
I'd give her some credit for not doing as well as carefully reasoned "monday
morning quarterbacking".

------
irascible
Seeing the text thread just reinforces my opinion that "VC's" are semi
literate morons who happen to have stupid money.

I'll be a programmer until the day I die, but FUCK that aspect of this
industry. The information age was born in California, in the most liberal,
feminist, and intelligent crucible of the Bay Area, and these shit weasels
have come swooping in to scrape their money of the top. It absolutely sickens
me, and I will jump with joy the day this bubble bursts and leaves these
fuckers high and dry.

------
MicroBerto
I suppose that VCs can compare you to whomever and whatever they like when
they have money that you are professionally begging for.

~~~
CatDevURandom
I'm trying to give your comment the benefit of the doubt, but I can't help but
read that as "well, beggers can't be choosers so just deal with it".

> I suppose that VCs can compare you to whomever and whatever they like

Generally true of all people, not just VC. Is it not, therefore, reasonable
then to in turn judge said person for that behavior?

> when they have money that you are professionally begging for.

Which is cool because they are in the position of power?

Could you clarify? The author did not take the money. Politely declined and
moved on.

~~~
MicroBerto
What do you think I'm trying to say?

If you don't want to be in a position where someone can hold power over you
and judge you, then don't put yourself in a position where someone can hold
power over you and judge you.

It's that simple.

~~~
true_religion
As a profession supplicant, I'd expect the people I beg to be at least
professional as well.

------
csomar
This "female founder" lacks diligence. There are many wrong things:

1\. The guy on the conversation has an opinion. Everyone is entitled to his
opinion. He is clearly not the guy doing the picking/selection. Just a stuff
crew. Shaming people for their opinions (it'd have been worse to name him) is
just as racist/sexist as you endure.

2\. Every one, race, religion... goes through this. You can't prevent
selection bias. But you might be able to defeat it with your startup
performance. Human are biased, and trying to change their minds will not work.
Which will lead us to the third point.

3\. Markets will decide. In a capitalist market, the inefficient guy will not
stand for long. In the long term, the efficient guy will win. Which is
probably why software is eating the world. If women are better (or equal),
things will work out in their favour on the long term. (e.g.: a VC that keeps
an eye on female-founders because they are under-valued).

Conclusion: Don't write offensive and controversial blog posts when you are
trying to raise money.

------
marcusgarvey
Just curious: have any male founders here been asked the childcare question
whilst pitching VCs?

------
dennisgorelik
This blog article is a good test of prospective startup founders. Ask startup
founder what they think and you quickly know if you do not want to work with
them.

------
theandrewbailey
At first, I was thinking that "your wife" was a stand-in for someone who is
not involved with your business, in the context of figuring out who your
customers are.

------
dominotw
> tell you to STFU every single time

People who have be told to STFU over last 2 weeks.

1\. marc andreessen

2\. gloria steinem

3\. stephen fry

4\. margaret albright

5\. richard dawkins

6\. Meryl streep

If ppl like these who have public speaking experience are getting stfu then
what chance do ordinary people have .

~~~
sremani
There is a corollary to First amendment (Freedom of Speech), it is Freedom to
not listen. I think people should exercise it more than trying to shutting
others.

------
sarahnadav
OP here. AMA

~~~
pavornyoh
Hello.. Is it possible to post the entire chat conversation?

~~~
sarahnadav
I went back and looked through the conversation. The entirety of the
discussion only makes him look worse.

It starts by me asking if they have invested in any women, him saying No and
then I say "Isn't that weird" and then the screenshots start.

Then we continue to chat and it turns into an argument.

------
carrotsticker
Super unpopular opinion incoming.

The guy was taken out of context and clearly said he was trying to explain why
the number of female founders was less. His thoughts had to do with not many
of them applying because they prefer to be mothers. Does not matter if thats
true or not, what matters is less apply.

Also, the affirmative action think irks me. Statistically 99% of pitches dont
get funded. If there is 19 male pitches for every female pitch, does that mean
that the female should get funding because its less common?

I would feel disgusted as a woman to know I got funded just to have a quota
filled and a box checked. When a woman pitches with a great idea, it should be
seen as a success, not as a VC giving out charity. This stuff really takes
away from the accomplishments of women and I hate it. The fact that you think
that more women should have been funded just because they are women lets your
bias shine through. Newsflash, Women and minorities can have, and usually do,
just as shitty business ideas as CIS white men.

~~~
HillRat
... Except that he's quoted as saying, "I think mothers have more important
things to do [than be entrepreneurs]" which, while certainly a position that
can be defended (though you won't see me doing so), is inarguably prejudiced
against female founders with children: he is explicitly saying that _mothers
should not be entrepreneurs_ and implicitly saying that _he would disfavor
such a founder_. He's very openly stating his prejudice against an entire
class of people, to a member of that class.

~~~
Normal_gaussian
Personally I want to make the right money now so that I can be the father I
want to be in the future. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that my
future children will be the most important things in my life for several
decades of my future.

I don't think that it is unreasonable to consider any parent as having more
important things than startups to do.

~~~
icebraining
Equating "women" with "mothers" is the first prejudice (she asked about the
former, not the latter):

 _" According to the U.S. Census Bureau’s Current Population Survey, in 2014,
47.6 percent of women between age 15 and 44 had never had children"_

~~~
ryanlol
What about the majority of them that did?

~~~
icebraining
What point are you trying to make? All I said is that Women is a
(significantly!) larger group than Mothers, so it's wrong to equate the two.
The latter is a subset, and an explanation that only covers them, as valid as
it may be, is insufficient to explain something about all women.

~~~
ryanlol
Yeah, but while doing risk analysis it's definitely a thing worth considering.

~~~
icebraining
Which wasn't what he was doing.

------
blablablame
I don't know the author, or her life circumstances, but to believe that
'Because in my head, I can’t imagine a scenario where you trust someone with
millions of dollars to run a business but think that they don’t know how to
deal with childcare.' Is just sexism is idiotic.

It isn't the childcare itself, is the pregnancy and the 1st year that is the
'problem'. Women can and are as good entrepreneurs as men, but if for a second
you think (exceptions excluded) women, during pregnancy and first months of a
newborn can run a business without sacrificing something you must never been
around that scenario. And if I was going to put a million dollars in your
business and there is even a 5% chance you may end up pregnant, it will indeed
be a minus in my book (as an investment though)

You either sacrifice the health of your baby with long nights, long working
hours, stress, etc, or you sacrifice the company when you take those 2-3 days
because morning sickness or tiredness don't allow you to be on your best.

Is it unfair? Yes, very, but pregnancy and breastfeeding is something that
takes a toll on women and no matter what a partner tries to do to help, he
can't really carry the baby in is belly or start producing milk. Think of it
this way, if the entrepreneur was a man, it would be akin to asking how he
would expect to keep focusing on their sports career (5+ hours practise a day)
and running a VC-based startup.

~~~
skrebbel
Good point, however all of this only holds in the American west coast bizzarro
world where the only way to build a successful company is to work 80 hours a
week, not sleep, and ruin all your relationships.

There are plenty of examples of companies where sane working hours are the
norm (irrespective of founder gender) and in those companies, the impact of a
single founder/manager being less available/dependable for a while is also
smaller.

Of course, there's a pretty large class of VCs that will only fund founders
who're willing to go 100% kamikaze just for a spot on their power law curve,
and your argument holds for them. But I know where I'd want my money from.

~~~
blablablame
It's not even that.

Stress (and being a founder is a very stressful time) is a very big no-no
during pregnancy and can influence the gene expression of the baby.

But Even sane working hours are a problem. Here is a bit of a cognitive
dissonance for the folks here at HN to ponder. I'm pretty sure you support
maternity leave and even a leave on the last few weeks of pregnancy right (I
do)? If that is the case, why? If you believe being pregnant/childcare (lets
say only first 3 months) isn't a big hurdle and a job onto itself and as
someone pointed below, a women may even work harder while pregnant, why
support the maternity leave?

~~~
CatDevURandom
> Stress (and being a founder is a very stressful time) is a very big no-no
> during pregnancy and can influence the gene expression of the baby.

[citation needed]

"Systematic reviews have generally concluded that standard working conditions
present little hazard to maternal or child health. A woman with an
uncomplicated pregnancy who is employed where there are no greater potential
hazards than those encountered in routine daily life may continue to work
without interruption until the onset of labor."

[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23472500](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23472500)

[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22355087](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22355087)

"Psychosocial work stress (high demands and low control) was not associated
with an increased risk of congenital malformations in a population-based
cohort study"

[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24593253](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24593253)

------
marcoperaza
You asked this guy why there weren't more female founders, so he gave you his
personal opinion backed with his personal experience with his wife. Would you
prefer that he lie to you instead?

~~~
dwaltrip
No, she just happens not to like the way he (and apparently a good number of
other VCs) mentally navigates the issue, and chose to write a blog post
expressing these thoughts. She doesn't like the idea that mothers can't be
founders because they "have better things to do".

------
Lanari
It's the same when an investor ask you do you have a job? are you going to
quit it for your project? are you going to stick with your project long
enough? Investors want you to have 100% of your time to your project, it's
just how it works.

~~~
adn
This would make sense if they same VC also asked a male founder if his wife
was pregnant, and if he was going to abandon the startup for his family.
Except we all know they wouldn't dare ask that question, because it would be
extremely rude and potentially illegal (?). But for some reason it's ok with
the female founders, again because of the idea that "mothers should be
mothers" that this VC expressed in the text message.

~~~
phil21
Why do you think this doesn't come up? As a single father of course it came up
in every funding/hiring discussion I ever had.

And it was perfectly reasonable for them to ask, due to the roles I was being
offered. If I got offended by that, I didn't understand the sheer amount of
work and effort those positions were going to entail.

If I'm hiring a 9-5 support tech, it's irrelevant. If I'm hiring a "kills the
company if it's the wrong hire" position, you bet your ass I'm looking at it
from every angle. And someone being able to commit 100% to that is very key -
doesn't matter if it's kids, sports, hobbies, whatever. If you decide you want
work/life balance, a startup founder is not for you. At least one that is
funded by VCs.

~~~
icebraining
_As a single father of course it came up in every funding /hiring discussion I
ever had._

Did it come up before you were a father?

