
I Was the Fastest Girl in America, Until I Joined Nike - aloukissas
https://www.nytimes.com/video/opinion/100000006788354/nike-running-mary-cain.html
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RcouF1uZ4gsC
This article was discussed last week:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21476304](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21476304)

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thunderbong
Dupe:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21476304](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21476304)

23 comments, 65 points

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JohnJamesRambo
I remember Mary Cain’s amazing promise. It’s sad to see how this turned out.

One of the things that most turned me off of competitive running in my
personal life is when I realized that the lighter you are the faster you can
run long distance. It just turns into an unhealthy feedback loop where all
your training can be superseded by someone that just weighs less. I don’t want
to do a sport that rewards anorexia and unhealthy body weights. Better to just
run for fun and the health benefits.

~~~
derefr
> the lighter you are the faster you can run long distance

Is there a running-related sport that doesn't care about who gets there first,
but instead measures success like a gauntlet, where the last person to drop
out of the race for just not being able to run anymore, wins?

Not quite like a multi-day ultramarathon, where the running is segmented. I'm
talking more about something that measures who can muster the longest single-
segment run, with most people being expected and encouraged by their trainers
to drop out once their muscles start to fail them, lest they incur permanent
damage.

I imagine light weight would serve no advantage in this kind of "race."

~~~
madamelic
There is a gauntlet race somewhere in Appalachian US that only 20 or 30 have
ever finished.

It's a 30 hour race through the woods if I recall correctly.

EDIT: I wasn't 100% correct, but this looks like what I was talking about:
[https://www.outsideonline.com/1924491/60-hours-hell-story-
ba...](https://www.outsideonline.com/1924491/60-hours-hell-story-barkley-
marathons)

The actual count is 16 finishers and it is a 60 hour race so I am assuming it
is done in legs.

~~~
scott_s
The Barkley Marathons. It's a 60 hour race of 5 laps through an unmarked
course in a Tennessee state park:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barkley_Marathons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barkley_Marathons)

There is a good documentary about it called "The Barkley Marathons: The Race
that Eats its Young" currently available on Amazon Prime streaming. There are
also some smaller pieces on YouTube about some other years.

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Vysero
I watched the video on YT last night. I find it rather disgusting. If you ask
me there should be weight classes in running, a lot of them. For a company
like Nike, not having trained professionals on staff is simply absurd and is
completely unacceptable. Obviously, they are wrong about the importance of
weight in these competitions considering they killed this poor girls potential
with all that nonsense. She was running very fast, then they started starving
her and then she started running poorly. Personally, I would have fired the
entire staff and started over from first principles after hearing her story.

~~~
jmull
I think I understand what you're getting at, but I don't think weight classes
will help. E.g., consider boxing and wrestling. The competitive pressures will
still exist, and athletes will have to go to extremes to make the lowest
weight class possible to maximize success.

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jccalhoun
can this be redirected to the article instead of the video or at least marked
as a video?

Article link: [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/07/opinion/nike-running-
mary...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/07/opinion/nike-running-mary-
cain.html)

~~~
bo1024
In this case the main story is the video, not the article. The article is
mostly third-person but in the video Mary Cain speaks out directly.

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majani
Isn't it well known that you have to be extremely skinny to be competitive in
long distance running at the highest level?

~~~
bo1024
This is more or less true but you have to draw the causal diagram carefully.

Everyone has an optimal weight for them (oversimplifying).

The best in the world tend to be very effective at very low weights. E.g. say
114 lbs at 5’7 for the sake of argument.

It does not follow that lowering a 5’7 runner’s weight to 114 will always
cause improvement. MC is a counterexample.

Yes, I’m saying Salazar fell to a basic misconception. He’s had success, but
he’s obsessed with dumb things. When you have insanely talented and durable
athletes who actually do run best at e.g. 114 you start thinking your system
works for everybody.

~~~
spectramax
So then why this whole issue related to women? Mary's opinion is that more
women on Alberto's team would have been good without any explanation to why.
This is an issue with Coaches. In my opinion, if Alberto was a woman, she'd be
equally be deluded by her past success, having trained world class athletes
and having the prestige of the top program at Nike.

Instead of focusing on the issue at hand, broad strokes across the women's
movement do not help (in fact that masks the truth). The issue here is
specific knowledge that the coach needs to train a woman. There are male
gynecologists and urologists, so this is not an issue with Alberto's sexual
orientation or his team mates. This was a good ol' boys club of high profile
coaches and teams, when they're given large number of resources (Nike),
they'll do anything and everything to be successful.

~~~
scott_s
Because women react differently to very low weights. When they're underweight
for a prolonged time, they will stop having their period, which will cause a
change in hormones. The hormonal change leads to weaker bones, which makes
injury more likely. This happened to Mary Cain, as she explains in her video.

~~~
spectramax
I agree with you. So, the root cause is the lack of knowledge on the coach's
part. Mary in her video wishes that if there were more women on Alberto's
team, that would have helped. I don't see how. This is purely an issue about
Alberto's incompetence, which you've just highlighted and I agree with that.

~~~
scott_s
Based on the abuse she suffered, I think it's more than "lack of knowledge"
and incompetence. But to the point of more women, it's easier to ignore the
basic needs of one young girl, but much harder to ignore the basic needs of
(say) half of your team. And if a large portion of the coaching staff are
women, it's also more likely they will be aware of those basic needs.

~~~
spectramax
This is best observed and proven in medicine. There are men and women as
gynecologists who fundamentally understand women's health.

So, I don't see why this is a special case in Sports except for just the lack
of competence and perhaps they were deluded, malicious or just fogged by their
egos. This can happen to a womens team of coaches as well.

I can totally see a group of competent, well educated and professional men
teaching a young girl how to be the best at any sport.

~~~
scott_s
It's not a question of is it _possible_. It's question of what scenario makes
it _most likely_.

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programminggeek
Competitive sports(or anything else) at a high enough level is more about
genetic selection than training. The training reveals and reinforces potential
and is obviously necessary, but at some point anything that is competitive
enough it really just showing you who found the right sport and the right
training for their genetic capabilities.

In high school football there were guys who with the same amount of training
could squat/bench/deadlift considerably more than everyone else. They were
stronger/faster and when applied to the right sports they were on another
level.

Sure, those less gifted in those areas could train hard to make up some of the
difference, but not as much as you'd imagine. If you are short, no matter how
hard you train you will be at a disadvantage playing basketball. If you are
tall and bigger/overweight, you aren't going to win at cross country distance
running.

Humans tend to overvalue magical training and undervalue the existing
potential that training reveals.

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z3t4
You can be naturally strong, but if you don't train, those who do train will
beat you anyway. So you need to both train and have good genetics. Sports is
not fair, but training usually pays off.

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jSully24
If you'd like a deep dive on the extraordinary lengths professional athletes
and their teams will go this is a great read:
[https://www.tylerhamiltonofficial.com/book](https://www.tylerhamiltonofficial.com/book)

It not only goes into the doping, but also the training and diet necessary to
get the athletes weight to a level so they can achieve the necessary power to
weight ratio to compete to win. It's crazy. But when you consider the
investment teams are making in these athletes, you can see their motivation to
cheat the system.

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lumberingjack
As an avid runner myself women have it the worst during that time in their
lives at that age. Their bodies are changing rapidly but they're still trying
to make the same times.

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ct0
Really inspiring for her to come forward knowing how big nike is. Honestly, we
need more people like her.

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yters
People don't understand the point of competition is virtue, not winning.

Take the 'winning' mentality to its logical extreme of killing all the
competition, and the absurdity of it all becomes obvious.

~~~
mendelmaleh
The point of competition is to compete (which is why you need to leave the
competition alive,) and sort best to worst. Why you would do that is
subjective.

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yters
Like I said, if the point is just winning the whole thing is absurd. And yes,
people can do something for whatever reason they choose. But, if the reason
they choose is at odds with the reason the thing exists, then they undermine
the thing's existence. At best they are ignorant. At worst they are actively
trying to destroy that in which they are participating.

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hartator
Transcript?

~~~
kbrosnan
Below the video at [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/07/opinion/nike-running-
mary...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/07/opinion/nike-running-mary-
cain.html)

~~~
bo1024
I don't see the transcript...

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spectramax
In general, Coaches are tough and demanding. In this case, clearly, Alberto
has crossed the line with Mary. But, how does one know if the coach is abusive
or “that’s just how sports is, it’s hard and coaches are tough”? Wouldn’t this
lead to weaker coaches that don’t push the atheletes but now are afraid of
abusing and crossing the line? Please don’t take this as anything to do with
the what happened with Mary - I am not condoning what Alberto did.

~~~
ergothus
> But, how does one know if the coach is abusive or “that’s just how sports
> is, it’s hard and no replacement for hard work”?

Two comments -

First, althetes are already tough and demanding to themselves. The kinds of
tough coaches that need atent the same kind of tough I'd need to get my
unmotivated self moving. Equating these kinds of "tough" is inaccurate. They
need coaches that have insight and cover their weaknesses, not assholes.

Second, I completely understand your logical approach - I've done it myself so
many times. But I've started realizing that in doing so I'm supporting the
status quo without evidence. I'm defending current injustices because of
potential, hypothetical problems.

What IF "this lead to weaker coaches that don’t push the atheletes but now are
afraid of abusing and crossing the line"? While that's not the ideal, that
sounds better than inducing eating disorders that destroy quality of life (and
potentially, the lives themselves). I dont think that's a risk - my first
point covers that - but if that is a risk, it sounds worth the risk. Certainly
better than accepting the status quo because change MIGHT not be better in
every measure.

~~~
spectramax
Thanks for a detailed response, I know this is a sensitive topic.

I was more curious from a new athelete's standpoint. Say, I am 14 years old,
and say I want to become a world class athelete. Objectively, how does a _new_
young athelete know if they are being abused or just "working hard"? There is
literally no way to know if some authoritative figure as Coach is telling me
to do something I don't like.

The central question I have is how does a new comer sense and detect abuse so
that they can take action?

There is a lot of bullshit in Sports and Nutrition fields of study - partially
because the data just isn't there but also because the lack of scientific
method employed by people in this industry. Try searching for help on the
internet for a sports related topic and you'll get everything and anything
from tabloids full of bogus claims to rarely an linked journal from Johns
Hopkins.

Furthermore, we need to also think about this from a Coach's perspective.
There are thousands if not hundreds of thousands of coaches around the world.
What credentials and authority do they have to make their students do
something, especially if there is not scientific or objective backing up the
claims? On the other side, Coaches that are now in the business would be
completely taken aback and question everything that they do to avoid potential
unintended abuse.

I have empathy for abused athletes and it has no place in the society. Just
that it is important to understand both sides of the coin and not be riled up
by emotions.

