
In Defense of the Midwest - ntietz
http://ntietz.com/2015/03/08/midwest-defense.html
======
bglazer
I live in Memphis TN and I've found that comments on HN towards the middle of
the US are skewed negative. Perhaps I have a bias for remembering negative
comments. Nonetheless, I find this attitude perplexing from the HN crowd.

I understand the value of physical proximity to lots of other like minded,
smart people. However, I would have thought that the tech crowd would be the
first to decry the inefficiencies of having one or two (SF and NY) annointed
"tech hubs" and actively eschewing every other place. Why crowd every damn
programmer in the world into the SF bay area when we have the internet?!
That's the whole point of the internet!

There's also the cultural argument. Tech work has tended to attract people who
are part of non-mainstream culture. Tech hub cities attract these people
because they already have every culture and subculture imaginable and a
society that mostly tolerates them. There's also a perception that other
places don't have this and that their particular affiliation would invite
outright hostility. That's mostly not true. Every large city (>1M people) will
almost certainly have communities of people who share your culture or at least
tolerate and support it.

Again though, I think that choosing where you live based on whether or not you
can surround yourself with exclusively like minded people is counter to the
hacker ethos. Let's not forget that Silicon Valley was not always what it is
now. People _built_ the place, and the rest of the US and the world could
benefit from people who attempted to do the same elsewhere.

~~~
rdtsc
> Every large city (>1M people) will almost certainly have communities of
> people who share your culture or at least tolerate and support it.

That is not enough. There need to be companies willing to hire. Those
companies spring around where there is more talent so they don't have to
relocate everyone. Where is more talent? Around more companies. It is a
feedback loop. Network effect is probably the correct phrase here.

Unless large tech companies perhaps move their main offices or open large
offices around these Midwest or Southern cities the situation will not change.
But do we see Google, Facebook, Apple moving their HQ to Cleveland, or
Memphis?

~~~
bglazer
I was going to add a comment at the end about how I fear that I may be
fighting a losing battle against socioeconomic feedback loops.

That's profoundly sad to me though. Concentrating all of the technological
revolution's talent and wealth in a few cities will have bad effects on the
rest of the country.

~~~
rdtsc
Wonder if more acceptance of remote work will change this. Image a thousand or
ten thousand remote engineers, getting Google salaries. That is a lot of
income, a lot taxes, a lot of spending power.

There are smaller cities that are called one-company towns. One university,
one army base, one large manufacturing plant. That is the largest and most
prominent employer in the region. If that one thing goes away, the town will
suffer. Remote workers are different because they can hedge that risk. So with
more remote work, eventually, perhaps we'll start seeing new patterns emerge,
it could revitalize some areas. If there is more talent gathering, a positive
feedback loop might start...

Edit: To add, tax incentive structure can be important. Some states do a lot
better in that regard. There are even special deals arranged like "If you move
your headquarters here, you'll pay lower taxes" or something similar.

~~~
nightski
I work remote from a small city in the Midwest and easily bring in > 200k
servicing select clients from throughout the country. It could be a lot
greater if I had any interest in subcontracting/hiring or growing.

While I occasionally visit SF I always get a good chuckle when my friend that
lives there talks about how expensive things are and the pains of living
there.

~~~
cageface
If you do have any interest in subcontracting web or iOS work please ping me.
Contact info is in my profle.

------
msutherl
_(1) Cleveland gets all the Broadway shows once they go off Broadway, but at
about half the cost, (2) We have great music here, including the world-
renowned Cleveland Jazz Orchestra, and tons of bands come through, (3) We have
some great sports teams (hi, OSU) and a ton of great sports fans (hi, Browns
fans), (4) We have great food at very affordable prices_

Yes, exactly. As someone who lives in New York, this is the very definition of
"in the middle of nowhere." Your idea of "culture" is Broadway shows, the
local jazz orchestra, professional sports, and restaurants. To me, that's all
stuff for tourists. Even San Francisco is culturally lacking by New York, LA,
London standards.

Fine if you're satisfied by mass-cultural products, but the reality is that
most cultural producers migrate to metropolitan centers once they reach a
certain level of success and the second-tier cities are left with the loyal,
the mediocre, and the novice.

That's not to say that there's nothing interesting going on in second-tier
cities, but there's maybe 2 orders of magnitude less activity and the ceiling
is far lower.

~~~
nostromo
New York does have a great arts scene; but unless you're an artist, it'll
always be peripheral to your day to day life.

Day to day life in New York is dreary. By American standards it's a filthy
city. It smells and will always smell because trash is collected on the
sidewalk. It manages to be both too hot and too cold. On summer days, a
blanket of pollution hangs in the city air. The waterways are toxic after
rainfall because NYC expels raw sewage into them. Most any place of business
worth visiting will have a long wait. There are lots of delightful people in
the right areas, but the many wrong areas are filled with throngs of really
awful people. The amount of cat-calling, homophobia, and racism I experienced
on the train or just walking around was an order of magnitude more than I've
witnessed anywhere on the West Coast. The cost for living this privilege are
some of the nation's highest taxes.

I don't regret my time in New York, but I do think it's one of the worst
cities in the US in terms of livability.

From Joan Didion:

> All I mean is that I was very young in New York, and that at some point the
> golden rhythm was broken, and I am not that young anymore. The last time I
> was in New York was in a cold January, and everyone was ill and tired. Many
> of the people I used to know there had moved to Dallas or had gone on
> Antabuse or had bought a farm in New Hampshire. We stayed ten days, and then
> we took an afternoon flight back to Los Angeles, and on the way home from
> the airport that night I could see the moon on the Pacific and smell jasmine
> all around and we both knew that there was no longer any point in keeping
> the apartment we still kept in New York. There were years when I called Los
> Angeles “the Coast,” but they seem a long time ago.

~~~
Ollinson
The subway makes the culture in NYC different than almost any other major city
in the US.

If you lived in NYC maybe you understand. In other cities you can get around
with public transportation, in NYC it's unquestionably _the_ way to get around
by everyone from day laborers to movie stars.

Also, your narrative of grittiness is very different than the other popular
narrative, that NYC is now "disney" full of tourists, cops and wealthy
transplants.

The simple fact remains that people want to be here in NYC despite whatever
criticism.

~~~
STRML
Have you been to other cities with underground metro lines? The NYC subway is
the dirtiest, noisiest, most claustrophobic metro system I've ever used; it
even gives London a run for its money.

There are other great cities out there. Many of them do things differently,
and do quite well at it. Try Hong Kong or Singapore's underground, or in
Europe, Vienna's - even the ones in China are cleaner and easier to navigate.

I agree with nostromo. A day in New York is a day endlessly pushing against
roadblocks, those roadblocks being people, traffic, delays, dirt, bad
neighborhoods, long commutes, noise, expensive living, expensive eating... and
all of that just to live in your tiny box and think that you're a part of it
all.

I'll take small to medium-size towns any day, over that.

~~~
Ollinson
Notice how I qualified my statement by saying _in the US_.

I'm perfectly open to criticism of the subway compared to other countries more
modern systems. As it stands though, for a person with only a US passport, the
NYC subway is in a class of its own. On a global scale it is still one of the
largest underground systems.

I was born in NYC and have also traveled extensively internationally.
Foreigners and transplants often have this misconception that NYC = Manhattan.
If I shared that sentiment then I would agree that NYC is not the greatest
place to live. Try spending an afternoon in Astoria, Queens or Williamsburg,
Brooklyn (two of the most trendy places in NYC at the moment but they work to
prove the point). Tourists rarely see these places but residents live
comfortable lives there with literally a 5 minute commute to the city.

~~~
STRML
Hell, the DC metro, for all its faults, is quite a bit nicer than NYC, but
granted, it doesn't go as far.

Even for outer residents it is not great. My wife's family lives in Queens and
it is inconvenient as all hell; there is a good reason people pay to live in
Manhattan. NYC is bizarrely centered around Manhattan as its central hub, and
all of the other boroughs are subservient to it; in a way they are deserts,
devoid of all but the most basic businesses and services, as the
arts/culture/jobs/education are in Manhattan.

To get to Manhattan takes 20 minutes by bus just to get to the L or M train,
then another hour (or often more) to get to the outskirts. If you miss the
bus, enjoy a 45 minute walk - the bus only comes every half hour, but is
hardly regular, as it goes down the area's only main thoroughfare that is
absolutely choked with cars, too many streetlights, and parking.

Maybe for some an 1:30-2:00hr commute daily is normal; at the best of times,
in Spring/Fall, it's bearable but annoying. In the hot summer or cold winter,
it's awful. I think, why go through all that - is the area really all that
spectular? Can't you have 10x more (land,time,sanity) living in the Midwest or
the South? Why even bother living in New York, if you're not going to live in
Manhattan?

------
forrestthewoods
You don't need to defend the midwest. Most people outside of San Francisco
couldn't give less of a shit about San Francisco. The three primary smells of
SF are urine, human feces, and weed.

I think Seattle folk are becoming increasingly hostile to the idea of moving
down there. Some dream of it of course, but I think they're decreasing in
number. Google and Facebook are expanding up here because there's so much
talent that simply won't move to the bay. And SpaceX is starting a 1000 person
studio soon.

Nashville is a good city. I hope it's tech scene continue to grow. Most west
coast folk wouldn't dream of living in country music capital of the world.
That's might even be a good thing. More opportunities for new people.

Lots of great places to live in the world. SF wouldn't even be in my top 100.
So at least take refuge in knowing you're far from alone.

~~~
xxpor
>Google and Facebook are expanding up here because there's so much talent that
simply won't move to the bay

I think a lot of that is driven by Amazon, because they built the downtown
offices. People get used to working downtown and they want to stay there. Easy
commutes from Capitol Hill/QA/etc.

Now Facebook is expanding downtown, Google Fremont is growing, etc. because
people refuse to commute to the east side.

As opposed to the Valley, where your options are (except for Twitter and
mostly startups)

1) Work in the valley, and live the suburbs. Yuck. Pay a billion dollars for
the privlege.

2) Work in the valley and live in SF. Pay a billion^2 dollars for the
privilege, and have a shit commute (sitting on a private bus is still sitting
on a bus).

No thanks.

That being said, I went to Case Western and would move back to Cleveland in a
heartbeat, if the salaries and opportunities were even remotely comparable to
Seattle.

~~~
freyr
> _and would move back to Cleveland in a heartbeat, if the salaries and
> opportunities were even remotely comparable to Seattle._

At some point you might decide you don't need to jump from company to company,
or from job to job. You'll realize you really only need a good job at a decent
company. And there's a good chance that such a job exists in Cleveland, or
Dallas, or Charlotte, or wherever.

At times, you might feel like you're missing out on the action. But then
you'll look at your bank account or your house or your kid's college fund,
which hasn't been being sucked dry by a ridiculously inflated cost-of-living,
and you'll come back to your senses.

------
L_Rahman
I used to believe in the Midwest.

Graduated in 2014, moved to Detroit to work for a hardware startup. Live and
work downtown, and the professional experience has been phenomenal.

However, the issue that's so frequently left out when discussing the
palatability of the Midwest is what it's like to be an Asian American here
when you've grown up in a major city on the East or West coast.

And the reality is that it's really difficult. Race goes from being one aspect
of your identity to an omnipresent difference that you feel constantly. On the
vast majority of days that I spend here, I'm the only person of South Asian
origin that I run into. This tends to lend itself to a sense of isolation
that's difficult to capture in words.

~~~
analog31
I live in the Midwest, but visited a colleague at another site owned by my
employer, in California. She echoed your sentiment. I have to say that if
there's any specific reason why I'd hesitate to enthusiastically endorse
living in the Midwest, it's the racism.

~~~
joelrunyon
> I have to say that if there's any specific reason why I'd hesitate to
> enthusiastically endorse living in the Midwest, it's the racism.

The midwest includes a broad swath of states. While I've encountered some
racism throughout the area, I'd be hard-pressed to see how it's vastly
different than any other racism that permeates US culture.

~~~
lstyls
True, the midwest as a region is broad and well-defined. But I'm guessing what
the poster referred to us the midwest north of the mason-dixon line.

The upper midwest has its own breed of racism. It is quiet but built in to the
socio-economic fabric of cities there in a way even worse than the south in
many ways.

I'd like to point out that midwestern cities are among the most segragated in
the U.S.[1] Minnesota, the place where I grew up, is famous for having one of
the best public school systems in the country. What you won't hear Minnesotans
talking about, though, it the ugly fact that Minnesota has the highest
discrepancy in educational outcomes of any city in the country.

If you're from there, its easy to see why. There are exclusive suburbs with
incredible schools for the local upper-class kids. But if you go to the inner
city the schools are a joke. The difference is shocking in person.

The worst part is, there is not even a conversation in the upper midwest about
race. The dominant narrative is that its a southern problem.

[1] [http://atlantablackstar.com/2014/03/24/10-of-the-most-
segreg...](http://atlantablackstar.com/2014/03/24/10-of-the-most-segregated-
cities-in-the-u-s/)

Extra reading:
[http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2015/02/minnesota_has_the...](http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2015/02/minnesota_has_the_worst_financial_racial_inequality_in_america_according_to_study.php)

[http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2015/02/17/if...](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2015/02/17/if-
minneapolis-is-so-great-why-is-it-so-bad-for-black-people/)

*Edited for completeness

~~~
strictnein
> What you won't hear Minnesotans talking about, though, it the ugly fact that
> Minnesota has the highest discrepancy in educational outcomes of any city in
> the country.

That's just simply incorrect (and, also, Minnesota is a state, not a city,
you're probably referring to Minneapolis?). That's in the major local paper
(Star Trib) weekly, if not more frequently. It is a topic of significant
conversation and another proposed effort is being debated in the MN House
currently, as well as efforts to decrease the number of suspensions
disproportionately received by minority students, and a push to offer "free"
preschool for lower class families, which will likely be approved soon.

Also, simply chalking up the cause of these issues to "racism" is lazy
thinking. There's far more at play, including a significant immigrant
population (large populations of Somali and Hmong, for instance), an inability
for the MPLS school district to recruit good leadership, and more.

------
ggreer
I think the main reason the author prefers the midwest is because he was
raised there. Property values and migration flows attest to people generally
preferring the coasts.

I've lived in a lot of places: The UK, Alabama, Illinois (for a short time),
Guam, Washington, New York, and California. Not having a home town, I think
I'm better positioned to evaluate these places. My least favorite region is
the south, followed closely by the midwest. The reason is simple: overt
racism. Nowhere else have I seen such blatant and hateful discrimination. Even
if the weather, food, jobs, and night life improved, I'd still shy away from
living there.

~~~
hueving
Europe in general is pretty bad for bigotry along different divisions. The
stuff people in the UK could get away with saying about immigrants and people
in other countries was pretty disgusting.

Every country I've spent time in over there (France, UK, Switzerland, Italy,
and Germany) seems to have a culture that accepts making blanket offensive
statements about people from other countries (or religions in the case of the
UK).

~~~
DanBC
I agree that there are some really unpleasant openly racist people in England.

Is it as bad as the US? Black americans make up half the US prison population;
they're six times more likely to be imprisoned; as of 2001 one in six black
men had been incarcerated;

[http://www.naacp.org/pages/criminal-justice-fact-
sheet](http://www.naacp.org/pages/criminal-justice-fact-sheet)

Laws are unjustly applied, one example is the rates that black Americans or
white Americans are arrested for cannabis drug crime.
[http://nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/high-time-the-
injustic...](http://nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/high-time-the-injustice-of-
marijuana-arrests.html)

~~~
dagw
_Is it as bad as the US? Black americans make up half the US prison
population;_

Based on the numbers I find the the ratio for blacks in the US is 40-45%
prison to population vs 12% general population. In the UK the numbers seem to
be about 12-15% prison population vs 2.5% general population.

If you look at Muslims instead of blacks then you'll find similarly lopsided
ratios in many European countries. According to some sources as many a 70% of
prisoners in France are Muslim (read North African or Turkish in most cases)
compared to 10-12% of the general population.

So to answer your question in one word "Yes".

------
larrywright
As a fellow Midwesterner, I say "Amen". I live halfway between Chicago and St.
Louis - a two hour drive in either direction. We've got everything we need,
including great schools and tons of dining and entertainment options. I own a
2500 square foot house that will be completely paid for in 10 years, and my
mortgage is ~$700/month.

I've been to both coasts and many large cities in the US and abroad. I'd still
rather live here than anywhere else.

~~~
micro-ram
Agreed. Hi neighbor. Have 200mbit fiber now. Getting gigabit fiber in a few
days. Welcome to Central Illinois. NO TRAFFIC!

~~~
monksy
WTF?!

It's a struggle just to get gigabit to the home in Chicago.

------
jdg
There is a huge difference between founding a startup in the midwest and being
an engineer in the midwest. I believe that gets lost in a lot of the rhetoric
from both sides. I love hiring engineers in the midwest. Consistently great
work ethics, etc, etc.

On the other hand, if you're an entrepreneur, you don't live in SF and you're
building a consumer internet startup, you're fucked. Primarily because your
access to capital is so limited it's ridiculous. Most people that live in the
midwest aren't able to put in the time required to build out the relationships
needed to successfully fundraise in the Valley.

~~~
bbcbasic
The other side of the coin: If you live in SF and your VC backed startup
doesn't experience massive growth then you're fucked. In a cheaper city you
can be ramen profitable, or a lifestyle business, or just a regular business
or whatever.

------
godarderik
This article is particularly relevant to me. I’m originally from a suburb of
Cleveland less than half an hour from where the OP works, and I’m currently an
undergraduate at Harvard. There are definitely some differences between the
areas, and I can’t say that I have the overwhelmingly positive vision of the
Midwest that the author of this post has. My feeling is that people in the
Midwest are more content with the status quo — they understand what a
comfortable life is, and they seek to achieve that. Life is very safe and
sheltered, especially growing up there, and I feel that my peers from
elsewhere have been exposed to so much more of life than I have.

The Midwest also lacks the intellectual vibrancy that a place like Boston
does. It just seems to me that there are overwhelming concentration of smart,
ambitious people from the coasts compared to those from the Midwest.

Personally, I love it here in Boston, way more than I do at home. Ohio was a
good, safe place to grow up, and I imagine that it’s a great place to raise a
family. However, I couldn’t imagine spending any more of my life there than I
already have without dying from boredom or a creeping sense of mediocrity.

~~~
mturmon
This rings true. I grew up in a suburb of Kansas City and, looking back, see
it as a safe friendly place to grow up.

At uni, I was friends with a group of expat Manhattanites (not wealthy though)
and similar to what you say, they looked at St. Louis as a quaint toy city.
Many inconclusive dorm debates were held on the merits of the two
environments. Of course neither of us could give ground, so similar to what
you read nearby, we were talking past each other. Too defensive.

But that was 20 years and several cities ago. I still visit the Midwest and
enjoy family and a few friends. I experience it as not open to newness, to
difference, or to the exceptional. These things are just not valued. It is
valued to be a regular person and to be comfortable and respectable.

This won't work for me. I love LA, where I live now, and have great respect
for the Bay Area as well.

------
shyy
I grew up in Akron, Ohio and now live in the Bay Area.

Everyone points out the obvious differences like the weather, seasons, and
cost of living (housing in particular).

But one thing I rarely see mentioned is it seems that people in Northeast Ohio
seem far less judgmental in general. Whereas here, I feel like every third
person you meet is trying to size you up or “demonstrate” how smart they are.

Granted that’s probably a side effect of an overall higher bar of success for
the region…

But it’s still refreshing to get a break from that attitude when I visit
family back home. Unfortunately the there’s such a severe lack of tech jobs in
Ohio that I doubt I’ll ever be moving back.

------
hapless
No one who has done his research doubts that Cleveland can be a really nice
place to live. It's a charming midsize city with lots of good stuff happening.
Unfortunately, that's often not how we choose our geographic location.

America's major cities (Chicago, Los Angeles, New York) and one midsize city
with a special industry focus (the bay area) offer almost inconceivable
economic opportunity to people in HN's line of work. _Relative to population_
, their software and technology industries are tens of times the size of
Cleveland.

If you are a schoolteacher (one of the most common and widely distributed
white collar jobs), Cleveland is probably a hugely appealing destination. As a
person working in the technology industry (a much more centralized niche), it
presents a tremendous trade-off between quality of life and opportunity.

It's telling that the essay's author is a 100% remote employee of a firm in
the bay area. Not even an ardent defender of the (non-Chicago) midwest was
able to build his ideal career there.

~~~
paulhauggis
"Cleveland is probably a hugely appealing destination. As a person working in
the technology industry (a much more centralized niche), it presents a
tremendous trade-off between quality of life and opportunity."

I live in the midwest and visited Cleveland last year. Outside of about two
streets downtown, it's pretty much a ghost town at night.

Many, many businesses have left over the past 5 years because of the economy.

------
BRitterbeck
I moved from Cleveland to the Bay Area two and a half years ago. It was
probably the best decision I have ever made. While working down in Mountain
View, I learned there is absolutely nothing special about Silicon Valley. What
is being done here in the Bay Area can be replicated anywhere. Had I not moved
here, I would still have this vision of Silicon Valley being a special place.

I would even go so far as to say you're better off starting a company in the
Midwest. It's a hell of a lot cheaper, and you can still find good talent.
Sure, it will be harder to raise money; however, money will find the truly
good ideas.

------
rdtsc
Ah but it is not a defense of Midwest as a workplace. It is a defense of the
Midwest as a living place and effectively working on the West cost, and by
implication, getting a West coast salary.

If you can do this arangement, it is not bad, agreed.

However I found tech jobs wise Ohio was a shithole. The number of available
jobs, the salaries, the expectations were just not there when I was looking.

Like he said, the people are great, I had to leave a lot of friends and family
behind, which hurt. The food, art scene, music wasn't bad, so agree on those
fronts.

Edit: Interesting, getting downvoted without any comments. Not sure if this is
an instinctive defense "he is attacking out Midwest pride"... Like I said, I
like Midwest, and would have rather not had to leave. Unfortunately companies
I got offers from didn't allow remote work.

~~~
klipt
> If you can do this arangement, it is not bad, agreed.

I'd say it's a pretty great arrangement ... but probably difficult to pull
off. Which means you're screwed if you lose your job. Doubly screwed if you
already have a mortgage in place-that's-good-to-live-but-not-to-work.

~~~
empthought
You can pay for a mortgage in place-that's-good-to-live-but-not-to-work on a
third of the West Coast salary needed.

~~~
klipt
Well yeah, I could buy a house in some places with just 1-2 years of frugally
saved West Coast salary.

Question is, how would I get a job after moving there...?

------
kelnos
I'm getting a bit weary of people putting down others for where they live,
while glorifying their own choices.

Guess what? It's just a location. Everyone has different tastes and different
priorities. Some people are happy with where they live and wouldn't consider
living anywhere else. Others wish they could move somewhere else where the
pace of life is different -- slower _or_ faster. Some people want a big house
and plot of land. Others don't want to deal with the hassles of home ownership
and like renting a modestly sized apartment.

Why do we feel the need to keep arguing this? Just let people live where they
want to live, and stop wasting time evangelizing any particular city. No one
needs to justify their city of choice.

------
kdefranco
As a native Clevelander I can fully back this piece. I came back to Cleveland
upon graduating college in May and have not regretted my decision one bit.
While the resources are nowhere as easy to come by as in the Valley there
still is a great startup community that's been building over the past few
years. The cheap cost of living, beautiful seasons and plethora of things to
do year-round have me recruiting college friends to come join me instead of
vice versa.

~~~
re_todd
I'm tempted to move to a cheaper city inland, but I've heard horror stories of
people trying to get to work when it snows. Is it extremely difficult to get
to work in the winter?

~~~
shyy
No, not at all. Every once in a while there’s an extremely bad storm that
makes it difficult, but for the most part the infrastructure (plows, salt
trucks, etc.) has adapted to the climate such that it’s not a problem 97% of
the time.

~~~
kevan
Minnesotan here, everyone in my office takes their laptops home if we think
it'll snow. If it snows during the commute then things slow down, but there's
armies of plow trucks and things get cleared quickly.

------
datashovel
I spent the first ~10 years of my web-dev career in Los Angeles / Orange
County area, and South Florida tri-county area. Since 2009 (with a brief stint
in Atlanta) I've been an independent consultant in Ohio. Not just the midwest,
but a town of only a few thousand. The larger local businesses don't just have
parking lots. They have built parking structures for Amish horse and buggies.

I've never in my career felt more productive and fulfilled than I have since
doing this. It was the best career choice I've ever made.

The only complaint I have is that not just my local area, but Ohio and
surrounding states in general seem to still be in the equivalent of the dark
ages when it comes to technology and the web. I've lucked into some really
good, steady clients who appreciate my work, so I know it's out there. The
ratio of tech-savvy businesses is definitely obviously lower than you would
expect to find in New York or San Francisco. I imagine it's only going to get
better though, which I'm really looking forward to.

------
msoad
For an immigrant Midwest is though. In Bay Area, there are tons of groups of
people from countries you've never heard of them. And funny is, all those
people are working in technology so in their time together they have a lot of
shared interests to talk about.

One other side effect of having more diverse demographics is people are less
bios against ethnicity. Because people are exposed to a lot of people from
other ethnicities.

~~~
justin66
The city the author was talking about, Cleveland, is a city with a 51% black
population. A suburb I live next to in the area has a Jewish population
comparable to an Israeli city (over 90%). I'm pretty sure we've got the
largest Slovenian population outside of Slovenia. I just got a graduate degree
from a college in Cleveland and roughly 80% of my fellow CS students were
ethnically Indian, with the rest a pretty random mix from around the world. I
guess I could go on.

In contrast, I honestly never felt like the urban techie parts of the Bay Area
were hugely diverse when I lived there. Lots of really interesting people but
there are much more interesting places to live as far as non-tech stuff goes.

------
dustin1114
Disclaimer: I'm a son of the Midwest :-)

This article hit home for me. Though I technically now live in a medium-sized
mid-Atlantic city, the culture here is more like the Midwest. I'm not against
the Bay area or NYC, but for me, I couldn't imagine living in those places:
congestion, price of living, and their lacking of the "down-home" feeling.

I believe it would be more difficult to found a technology-centric company
where I live, though. As an example, the company I work for, though very
large, is based in a small city. For years, there was not much of an issue
attracting new talent. The problem is that our IT organization has grown
immensely recently, and attracting new "hacker" talent into the middle of the
country is a huge obstacle. One of the solutions was opening another IT office
in New Jersey, just a few miles from NYC. Problem solved.

But then there's those of us who grew up in the Midwest. I love being able to
buy and own a nice home for under $200K. I enjoy being able to drive to work
with minimal traffic. I even like reading about living in the Bay area on HN
and laughing at the things so many have to deal with! But the truth is, tech
people thrive in the Bay area. And I'd say that the Bay thrives on them. But
there will always be a few of us engineers who live in "flyover" country :-)

------
nether
All men's miseries derive from not being able to sit in a quiet room alone.

------
ryanSrich
I was in the exact same boat just two years ago.

I always thought I'd move to the valley to work for a startup and then
eventually start my own. After my first offer right out of college with a
company in SF didn't work out I ended up taking a job in DC.

My god am I glad that I held out on that one. Not only did I make a comparable
salary in DC but the housing cost was at least half. I was paying slightly
less than $2k for a nice 600 sqft one bedroom. In SF it would have been closer
to $3.5k.

Now two years later I work remotely from Portland for a company based out of
Madison Wisconsin. Who would have thought right? Certainly not me 2 years ago.
As I've grown and traveled the US I've found the valley to be less and less
desirable (and yes, I've been there several times).

Honestly the only draw to the valley is the higher volume of jobs. Aside from
Google, Apple, et al, you're going to be saving far less in the valley than
anywhere else. There's no incentive to move the valley if you can find a job
anywhere else. I know people will tell you the network of VCs, the atmosphere,
etc. But it's all overrated. If you're right out of school your number one
concern should be saving money and learning. If you work in the valley you're
only getting access to one of those and it's certainly not saving money
(again, unless you're working for Big Tech Co.).

Now don't get me wrong. There are certainly places out there that are far
superior to others. I would certainly rather live in the valley than Houston.
The cultural aspect is key. I'm simply saying don't run to the valley because
you have some idealized image of it. Research and do the math.

------
driverdan
What's really ridiculous is that companies force people to live in the bay
area and work from an office. There is absolutely no reason for this anymore.
Developers can write code from _anywhere_ , whether that means Ohio, India, or
wherever.

------
gjmulhol
I guess I find it a bit off-putting that a blog post trying to dispel
stereotypes about a geographic region stoops to saying things like "On both
coasts, the pace of life is really, really high: you just go, go, go and work
constantly." This might be the norm in New York and Silicon Valley, but the
south isn't this way, and I have been to towns as far east as MA that have
laid back cultures — visit the town of Wellesley, MA if you want to see that.
I am not disagreeing that there are great things about living anywhere, but
trying to overturn stereotyping by stereotyping doesn't ring very true to me.

~~~
avasylev
Wellesley MA is one of the most expensive suburbs of Boston with home prices
above million, most of IT guys would have to work day and night to live in
that laid back culture :)

~~~
gjmulhol
Not arguing that it is cheap, just saying that the generalization that
everywhere near the coast is fast moving is incorrect. Cheaper options include
Wilmington, NC, Raleigh, NC, and Asheville, NC -- I skew NC because I lived
there for several years and loved it (and I am now based in the Bay Area).

------
scrapcode
I grew up in Kentucky, and have lived in many other states in the east and
southeast. I've also lived in Washington and LA. There are some things that I
really miss about LA, such as the constant activity and drive, but those are
also the things that I found I could never acclimate to living with (the
traffic, the constant hustle).

I live in Kansas City now and am hoping to see big things start to happen more
often in the technical start-up world. The city is embracing start-up culture
it seems and it's just so damn cheap that I believe it to be inevitable.

------
amyjess
I live in the suburbs of Dallas, and I wouldn't be able to stand living
anywhere else.

Cities are expensive, cramped, filthy, and noisy. The Silicon Valley startup
scene deeply creeps me out. I couldn't really care less about "culture"; just
give me a good local bar to hang out at and a bunch of good restaurants, and
I'll be happy. One thing about Dallas is that the suburbs are really
ethnically diverse, and that translates into lots and lots of really damn good
ethnic restaurants (I've even heard reports that we have more restaurants per
captia than NYC, but that's probably a myth -- it's a believable one, though).
Oh, and I pay $1200/month rent for a 1500 sq. ft. townhouse in a nice part of
town. There's no way NYC or SF can beat that.

By the way, I'm a trans woman, and I went full-time before I started passing.
The only time I've ever faced street harassment was the the two years I worked
downtown (and I was harassed both before and after transition). Since I'm
working in the suburbs again (hallelujah!), I haven't been harassed. Sorry,
but I'd rather not have hobos and perverts shouting at me and following me
around. Even the most liberal cities are still cities and still have unsavory
types crowding the streets. You don't see that in the suburbs, even
conservative ones. I never encountered even a single instance of transphobia
in the suburbs (again, I went full-time before I was passable) -- and I'd like
to repeat that I live in Texas.

------
vasco_
Having lived in Pittsburgh for 10 years, I can say that I miss a lot about
that City. I miss the seasons, the people and the landscape, and in
Pittsburgh, there are a lot of great technology companies. Nothing compared to
SF, of course, but you can definitely have a great life there. The thing that
I can't overcome is the lack of an Ocean. It is very to beat a beach sunset
after work.

------
gowan
As a californian who recently moved to the midwest (IA) the only thing I
really miss is the mountain biking.

On the other hand I love the road biking scene in IA.

~~~
hugs
As a (Southern) Californian who moved to Chicago many years ago, I feel the
same away about missing the mountains. (For trail running, not biking,
though). If I ever move back to CA, it'll be to Marin County so I can be near
all those amazing running trails. The high cost of living there keeps me away,
though.

------
mkoble11
maybe i'm reading too much into it, but i find the title bothersome. why start
with the premise that the midwest needs "defense"?

there's great stuff happening here, and anyone with an open mind would
recognize that. let's talk up our successes instead of being bashful because
we're "not SF".

------
Bahamut
I loved my time in the midwest, but I don't miss the winters - they were
brutal, and it would often take until May or June until spring weather would
come.

I uniquely have friends around the world and spread out all over the US -
location doesn't matter as much to me, since I could hang out with everyone I
want. As a single man though, the Bay area makes a lot of sense for me as a
result, since the pay still outpaces the cost of living for me. Being tired of
wintry weather was also a huge factor in me migrating out west.

There is a chance I might migrate south to the Austin area in the future, or
back east to the NY or DC area eventually - I do miss the strong ties I have
to the east coast from having lived there for most of my life, but Austin
sounds attractive as a tech hub and due to more sane housing costs.

------
justin66
For those in the Bay Area, I guess it's worth noting that people from Oakland
tend to have an affinity for Cleveland and vice versa. Something I've noticed
over the years.

Some of the author's points seem valid but a bit odd (mentioning the Cleveland
_Jazz_ Orchestra as being "world-renowned" instead of the Cleveland Orchestra?
No mention of the art museums? Mention the Browns several times but not the
Cavaliers, especially this year?) but overall it's a good piece. The thing
that's missing is this: what makes Cleveland genuinely interesting is that
it's a two-hundred year old city which is still figuring out what it's going
to be when it grows up. It really could go a few different ways.

------
glesica
I grew up in the midwest and hope I never have to live there again. But I also
hate California (hot, even in winter, way too sunny, smells awful about 80% of
the time, probably in part because of the heat). I found that places like
Washington, Oregon, and Montana are much more to my liking.

Moral of the story: everyone has different preferences and things they value,
so assuming that any particular person would want to live in any particular
place is pretty foolish. As a corollary, assuming that anyone talented will
want to live in California (because everyone wants to live in California)
seems like a pretty bad strategy.

------
noobermin
The "best" university I could get into was my last choice, a certain, large
public uni in Ohio, and I was upset but I chose it anyway.

However, Columbus is freaking awesome, I was so happy I decided to come here
just because of the place and the friendly people (in fact, I have met one or
two people who frequent this very site there!), not to mention the variety of
great food and great coffee!

I have since starting planning leaving uni, but I probably want to stay in
Columbus, if possible. How ironic, isn't it?

------
vasilipupkin
The reality is, the confluence of factors such as availability of VC capital,
proximity of Stanford and weather make Bay Area the best place to be if you
are a founder or a very early employee of a startup and you hold a significant
stake. If the weather is a big factor for you, then Chicago will never beat
Bay Area. But if you are not one of the above, and you don't care about the
weather, Chicago beats Bay Area hands down on quality of life, in my opinion

------
kzisme
I feel a lot of the same feelings the author felt while doing his undergrad,
and it's nice to know other people feel the same way about their geographic
location.

I'm also from Ohio and completing my undergrad, and considering where to
possibly move for a career. (If that means much at all)

------
zippergz
The problem I have with the cost of living argument is that, while housing
tends to be cheaper, an iPad or a new car is not. That lower salary hurts
everywhere except in mortgage or rent. And I say this as someone who has never
lived in the Bay Area and hopefully never will.

~~~
kevan
True, but mortgage or rent is one of the largest items in most people's
budgets. A new software engineer in Minneapolis can comfortably buy a house
and start building equity. A new software engineer in the bay area probably
can't even with the >40% salary difference.

~~~
kxo
Don't forget the close-to-10% state income tax (at engineer income), higher
sales tax, CA SDI, higher food/utility costs, higher insurance, etc.

If you're lucky enough to work in a state with no (or low/fixed) income tax,
that 10% combined with the hilarious housing cost situation covers the spread
in salary difference very quickly.

And if you're working remotely there are obviously other potential lifestyle
savings to be had (parking, generally less restaurant expenses, etc.)

------
meow_mix
There's also a really great budding startup scene in Columbus centered around
Ohio State. The midwest really shouldn't be discounted for work, especially
considering how cramped the valley's becoming.

~~~
loganfrederick
Do you work/live in Columbus? I graduated from OSU in 2012 and it's great to
hear on HN other people who feel the city is exciting.

~~~
meow_mix
I'm a student at Ohio State and I work part time as a web contractor. This
summer I'll be in Seattle as an intern at Amazon though, so I'm excited to see
the difference.

------
nebos0
Throwaway account,

New Englander here and quite frankly I think the Midwest is politically and
socially backwards and I do not want anything to do with your part of the
country. I have the same feelings about the South.

Politically you're still debating the merits of gay marriage in many of your
states and thankfully only because of the courts are you being forced to
accept it as a legitimate thing.

Too much religion and not enough education.

Too conservative. Especially your desperate need to cling to gun-ownership as
some sort of ultimate freedom.

If i'm picking petty things to dislike... we'll you're also boring. You don't
export any interesting cultural artifacts you just soak up whatever the coasts
have to offer. That's not much of a reason though and as I said, it's petty.

~~~
Aloha
You sound like someone who's never seen anything outside of coastal New
England, backwardness exists all over.

See how the folks in rural Maine feel about gay marriage - I'll point out that
47% of voters in 2012 were opposed which on the surface sure doesn't seem too
different to me than the 46% of Ohioans apposed as of last polling in 2014.

I'd bet I'd find remarkably similar polling in Ohio, Maine, Vermont or New
Hampshire about gun rights too.

When it comes down to it, the conservatives have lost the war they might not
realize it yet, but history is on the side of those for equality and equitable
treatment.

As for the culture comments? You're just a snob, but that very nearly goes
without saying.

------
rongenre
The problem with working in the Midwest is: what do I do if the job I have
goes under. In a tech hub I can be lining up interesting interviews in a few
days.

~~~
syncopatience
It's no different in the midwest, at least in the larger cities (Chicago,
Minneapolis, KC, etc).

------
nfriedly
As another developer who lives in Ohio, but has taken numerous trips to SF and
even lived in the bay area for a year, I agree with everything in this
article.

------
lukego
Complementary idea: REMOTE
([http://37signals.com/remote/](http://37signals.com/remote/))

------
mahyarm
If you bought your house at 2010, it's not that bad.

------
pnathan
When I think of the Midwest these days, I think of St Louis/Ferguson.

I think of the price for housing and how it reflects _demand_.

I live in Seattle, so my viewpoint is slightly different, but, eh. I used to
live in a rural place, and I don't plan to go back, for a _long_ time, if
ever.

Let me pick apart this article a bit, and demonstrate how skew these high
points are from things I care about.

* Housing cost. That's where the pay difference comes in. And my $800/mo in student loans doesn't change if I live on the coast or in the middle of nowhere. So it's actually better for me, because the proportional cost of fixed payments goes _way_ down.

* Broadway shows, okay. But wouldn't you rather be in a vibrant place where creation happens, than be the "second hand"?

* Same for music. Do you want to be in the place where creation happens, or a pit stop on the tour?

* Sportsball. _Meh_.

* Foodwise, my mind was blown by the quality difference between St. Louis and Seattle/SF when I visited recently. Maybe I hit the wrong joints, but STL had _terrible_ food. Absolutely shockingly worse. I'll have to shake down some people for more reccs next time.

* Seattle is incredibly friendly and polite. Drivers in the city are probably the friendliest I've ever come across. While it retains the historical Scandinavia reserve, people are really just _decent_ here in general. SF is famous for its collaboration between businesses.

* I don't even understand the idea of wanting to turn off work on a daily basis. I left that attitude behind me when I last worked fast food. The 9-5er attitude is "yuck".

* The author is generally ignoring the intense network effects of having zillions of nerds in the same city.

\---

Anyway. Not that TFA is _wrong_. But its priorities are very skew from mine.

I want to live in a place where technology is a significant lifestyle, where
nerds are your neighbor, where programmers aren't weirdos. I want to live in a
place with tons of cultures colliding and the resultant froth. I want to live
in a place where there are new companies forming weekly. I want to live in a
place where the optimism is in the air, where young people are flooding around
the town with new ideas, new thinking, and crazy things no sane adult would
do, and tech is in the heart of all that. Where the next thing is being done
at 3 in the morning fuelled by coffee, math, and being young and foolish.
Maybe that means I never will leave Seattle/SF/The-next-big-thing until I
retire, but I'm okay with that.

~~~
lotharbot
* "Seattle is incredibly friendly and polite"

My ten-year residence in Seattle (U District, Lake City, and Burien/Tukwila)
led me to use terms like "passive-aggressive", "frigid", and "unaware".

Seattle drivers are particularly terrible -- they'll force a line of 20 cars
to stop just so they can "politely" let someone in who would have been able to
turn just fine ten seconds later when all the cars had passed; they're
perfectly willing to inconvenience multiple other people in order to be
superficially polite to one. If there's a space in front of them, they'll
speed up, getting right on the bumper of the car in front of them -- even if
there's plenty of room to pass -- and then follow closely, as if they just
can't stand being more than a few yards behind the next car. (This particular
passive-aggressive maneuver is so distinctive that I once identified a vehicle
on the interstate in Kansas as "drives like they're from Seattle" from a
distance, confirming from the licence plate when I got closer.)

I also noticed that everyone in Seattle was polite to my face, but the
majority of long-term friends I made while in Seattle were from other places.
The people who turned out to be fake friends were mostly the natives.

That's not to say that Seattle entirely sucks. It was a neat place to live,
and there are a lot of good people there. But I find it interesting how
differently we perceive the same social scene, and how that contributes to my
being much happier far away from there.

~~~
pnathan
I'm an introvert: I have few friends, but close ones. The Scandanavian
"Seattle Freeze" suits me to a T - surprisingly so! But I can easily
understand how people who prefer other interaction modalities would find it
aggravating.

------
fown9
In Defense of Silicon Valley

1\. World class food. There is no way you can get the same quality of
chinese,japanese,korean,indian,french,italian,californian,thai,vietnamese in
Cleveland.

2\. People creating things in coffeeshops on the weekends, instead of wasting
life watching TV or drinking beer. You only get one life in this great
country.

3\. It's not ice freezing cold

4\. It's not superficial (like LA), not money worshipping (like NY), not power
hungry (like DC), not gun/football crazy (like Texas), not corrupt (like
Florida)

5\. Diversity

6\. Tech, Venture networks

7\. Silicon Valley people are great people. The entrepreneurs are supportive
of each other, since they know how much pain it is to start a company. The
people who take risks moving across country to here are brave and adaptive and
optimistic. (instead of rotting away on a couch in midwest complaining about
lack of jobs)

~~~
vasilipupkin
We should not compare Silicon Valley to Cleveland. Why don't we compare it to
Chicago? The reason the Cleveland comparison is somewhat unfair is that
Cleveland is a small city, so we are not comparing apples to apples

------
seany
Also, gun laws aren't total shit like they are on most of the coast.

~~~
xxpor
Who cares? Honestly.

If that's decides where you move... I honestly feel extremely sorry for you.

~~~
kxo
Ah yes, feel sorry for someone who chooses to live where their rights are not
(or are less) infringed upon.

------
niche
Ohio != Midwest

------
puls
Carnegie Mellon is absolutely in the midwest.

Pennsylvania is a big state.

~~~
dasil003
Pennsylvania the 33rd largest state. It is definitely not a large state by
western standards. I guess if you consider NYC the center of the universe then
maybe it's the Midwest, but as a Midwesterner (from Minneapolis) I'm not
really feeling that.

~~~
fjk
I think puls meant that Pennsylvania is a big state in the sense that
Philadelphia is considered to be a part of the east coast while Pittsburgh
(home of Carnegie Mellon) is often considered to be a part of the midwest _.

In that sense, Pennsylvania is a big state. Perhaps "wide" is a better
descriptor.

_Pittsburgh is kind of a buffer between the east coast and the midwest.
Architecturally, it feels more like an east coast city, but culturally it
feels more midwestern.

~~~
throwaway_1jl
> Architecturally, it feels more like an east coast city, but culturally it
> feels more midwestern.

I grew up in Illinois/Missouri and lived in Pittsburgh. This is spot on.

