
Coding Horror: The Keyboard Cult - Anon84
http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2010/10/the-keyboard-cult.html
======
raganwald
So, Jeff Atwood can't take me seriously as a programmer: As he puts it, when
was the last time you saw a hunt and peck pianist?

But I'm a composer, not a pianist, and technology has been liberating
composers from the need to be expert performers at least as far back as since
Apple funded a MediaLab project to give grade school children computers to
perform music so that they could compose music a long before they could learn
to play their own compositions.

Then again, he may have a point, I do a lot of whimsical programming. Maybe if
I took programming more seriously I'd learn to type. And learn to use an IDE.
And learn to push dirt:

[http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2007/12/codes-worst-
enemy.ht...](http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2007/12/codes-worst-enemy.html)

:-)

~~~
sliverstorm
I think you're reading too much into it. It's just that most programmers have
gotten to the typing level where ideas flow through their fingers basically at
the speed of thought, and anything that blocks that drives you insane.

~~~
raganwald
From what little you know of me, do I strike you as someone who is driven
insane by the fact that I can't transcribe my thoughts as quickly as I can
imagine them?

And if I was driven insane by the impediment of a keyboard, do you think I
would suffer it gladly?

Which is my way of saying, I haven't been driven insane by it and I don't
perceive that my ideas are suffering in a traffic jam trying to get out of my
brain and into the computer.

------
petercooper
I long for a mechanical keyboard about as much as I do a typewriter or non-
power steering and I used to have one of those Model Ms back in the 90s! I'm a
writer more than a programmer but the new "thin" Apple keyboard does me proud
for hours on end and is only marginally less comfortable than the Microsoft
ergonomic keyboard I used to enjoy.

This is yet another "different strokes for different folks" scenario, though I
love the irony of Atwood not taking _other_ programmers seriously considering
how often he gets reeducated by Spolsky on their podcast.

~~~
spamizbad
I find the new thin apple keyboards to be horrid, and it's not often I see
people praise them (they're universally disdained on keyboard snob forums,
even among dedicated Mac users). Have you tried any boards with Topre or
Cherry browns/blues switches?

~~~
points
I've never seen anything but praise for them. My mac keyboard is the best
keyboard I've ever typed on. The current crop of macbooks also have extremely
good keyboards.

~~~
wyclif
I'd rather not belittle anyone for preferences which admittedly, like music
choices, are subjective. But I truly loathe the Mac keyboards, and I'll tell
you why. It has nothing to do with platform bias.

Mac keyboards are not designed for touch typists like me. There is no contour
to the keys, they are flat and too large and make your hand move too far. They
are also not sufficiently actuated, as Atwood points out in this post. They're
made for people who hunt and peck and mash the keys using their biceps instead
of their fingers. Since that's not me, I hate them. They have an "iffy"
actuation instead of a decisive one.

They'll take my IBM Model M and Unicomp when they pry them from my cold, dead,
fingers.

~~~
pohl
I'm a touch-typist. (I studied piano in my youth for 12 years, and now on the
computer keyboard I can switch back & forth between qwerty and dvorak without
much trouble, although I prefer the latter.) I thought that I would hate the
Apple keyboards, and for exactly the reasons you mentioned (lack of contour,
not sufficiently actuated, too large...) but it didn't turn out that way. My
touch-typing wasn't terribly dependent on any of those properties.

------
evanrmurphy
I'm a recent mechanical keyboard convert. Bought a Customizer 101 [1] a couple
months ago and was so pleased I ended up buying a second one (one for work,
the other for home). I can type for much longer now before reaching any kind
of exhaustion in the hands/wrists. Recommended for the RSI-prone, as long as
the people around you don't mind the noise too much.

\---

[1] <http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/cus101usenon.html>

------
jbellis
All the keyboards he pictures are ergonomic nightmares.

+1 to jfb's recommendation for Kinesis Advantage. Their ergonomic designs are
well-made and durable. (My first lasted seven years; still on my second.)

Doesn't hurt that it gets a lot of attention. Sort of like a sports car for
your fingers. :)

------
cookiecaper
I really wish there were more ergonomic keyboards out there. The only one that
is viable anymore is the MS Ergo 4000, which, while nice, is not ideal. I
would prefer a nice mechanical ergo, but I would also prefer a normal ergo
keyboard that was more my style; I never use the zoom slider or most of the
other extra buttons on the keyboard. It takes a lot of space for all of those
buttons and I would like to buy an ergonomic keyboard that is better, but this
is basically the only choice.

~~~
kirvyteo
I sometimes wish there is one with a special arrow button move to the next
word instead of next character. Will help a lot with typing and programming.

~~~
nicpottier
Emacs.. META-F and META-B do just that. And META-D removes the entire word.
Replace CTRL for META and you do one character instead of one word.

That mapping alone makes learning Emacs bindings worth it. Most editors can be
configured to honor them.

------
daralthus
It is facinationg how people get stuck into one idea and can't get out of it.

Why would anyone want to type on a touchscreen the same way he used to do on a
keyboard?

I am actually thinking to make an ide for the ipad that eliminates typing of
letters one by one. Getting your code into the machine should have much more
freedom, than stooping in front of a keyboard and typing each word and symbol
after another. There must be some next level ui to autocomplete/typing in the
world of multitouch.

------
rix0r
I simply _love_ typing on the keyboard of my MBP. Does anyone know what class
of keyboard that is?

~~~
ciupicri
I think that it's a scissor-switch keyboard[1].

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scissor-switch>

------
awolf
Touch screen typing is NOT THAT BAD. I type 65 wpm on my iPad which is
defeintely fast enough that I can rely on it to do "real work".

~~~
georgemcbay
In terms of pure words per minute, I agree with you to an extent, but I also
much prefer to type on a keyboard when it is possible to do so.

My problem with touchscreen typing isn't so much related to how many WORDS I
can type in a given time, but rather the annoyingness of the modality of the
virtual keyboards combined with unintuitive chording for things like standard
keyboard shift, ctrl, etc. (I realize the better virtual keyboards do have
'solutions' for the chording issues but I've tried them and found them all
severely lacking).

Having to switch modes to do symbols, numbers, etc, is a real flow-breaker and
ultimately means that while I can type informal texts and emails fine on a
touchscreen, I find it excruciating to type mostly-grammatically correct
English on them. I wouldn't even attempt to code on one for similar reasons.

~~~
awolf
This really need not be the case. With practice I have become quiute
proficient typing the common symbols and all of the numbers. Instead of a one-
tap character it is a two-tap character, that's all.

(quick iPad tips that are a huge help: swipe from right hand number key
upwards to the exclamation/comma key to type " ; swipe from the right hand
shift key to the question mark/period key to type a period)

------
vl
I recently learned that Kinesis headquarters are close to Seattle (in Bothell)
and have a showroom. I'm going to visit over lunch someday - I'm not ready to
shell out $300 for Advantage without trying it first .

------
jawee
I have an old mechanical keyboard of sorts that I use... I am currently typing
on a fairly old Packard Bell keyboard that has individual plastic switches. It
is not the best there is, but it works well... so that is what my normal
keyboard situation is.

but what interested me most was the thoughts on how using touchscreen devices
really affects input patterns. I have an iPod Touch that I often use to surf
the web... usually Hacker News in Opera Mini in fact. I can type fairly fast
on the device as well... I have timed myself at 80wpm vs 120wpm on my normal
keyboard. From time to time I have even used it to type serious things, such
as a few page long history paper. It is never pleasent though. It feels like
an absolute chore of utter concentration to type fast on the touchscreen
keyboard. It's convinient enough to type a few short sentences here and there,
but whenever I go type anything lengthy I cringe at the fact that I have to
type there. I cannot imagine having something like the iPhone as my primary
phone because of how much texting that I do (I chose my non-smartphone simply
for having the best possible keyboard). I really do wonder how that will
affect how people think of data.. if we move more and more to devices where
text input just isn't as nice as on a keyboard, such as iPads and phones like
the Droid X and iPhone, for our computing needs, are we going to be less
likely to do serious interaction?

------
nlawalker
I consider myself to be something of an input device dork (you can pry my
MX518 from my cold, dead hands), but after trying a couple of the MS ergo
keyboards and a few other things, I've found that the Comfort Curve 2000 (MS'
cheapest keyboard) seems to work for me best. Everyone seems to be all about
the clacky mechanical or ergo boards, but I love the CC2000's gentle curve,
and the wide, low-throw, near-silent keys. I feel like I can really fly on the
thing when I'm typing, and it's spill-resistant to boot.

------
makmanalp
I also think that touch screen keyboards are crippling, but it seems that most
non techies don't type fast enough to care anyway. So maybe keyboards will end
up being a specialist tool?

~~~
protomyth
Add every secretary and administrative assistant to that list. The big volume
typing problem with touch screens (other than the constant "shifting" to get
other keys (e.g. Numbers on the iPad)) is the lack of movement which results
in more stress on the fingertips. Not to mention the lack of contours to tell
where fingers should be placed.

I do think it might be interesting to allow the word prediction to be system
wide on desktops / portables.

~~~
Qz
For me the biggest factors are the lack of physical response (although the
mini vibe on Android helps here), and the way touch screens can get overloaded
if you type too fast. On my keyboard I can type hella fast, but if I tried
typing like that on a full size touch keyboard, even if I hit every key
perfectly, the touch screen would get overloaded and miss letters.

~~~
awolf
Hmm, this is not the case on the iPad: many people are able to type at 100wpm+
on the it.

How fast do you mean?

------
jfb
I use and endorse the use of the Kinesis Advantage keyboard; I have two (one
for home, one for the office) and I _love_ the things. I don't get RSI pain in
my joints any longer, a development that correlates (who knows about
causation?) to my adopting the Kinesis and switching mousing hands, about ten
years ago. I used to rock the Model M, and I still love it, but my favorite
keyboard, at least from an aesthetic perspective, was the Apple Adjustable; I
loved that weird-ass thing.

~~~
jseliger
I'm a fan of the Kinesis too: <http://jseliger.com/2009/07/20/kinesis-
advantage> , but I'm not a huge fan of its price. But considering how much
time I spend at the keyboard, I can deal.

------
kgtm
On mechanical keyboards, Razer is bringing this puppy to the gaming masses
(and the rest of the tactile feedback enthusiasts): [
[http://store.razerzone.com/store/razerusa/en_US/pd/productID...](http://store.razerzone.com/store/razerusa/en_US/pd/productID.211651300/categoryId.35156900)
]. If you must combine some ultra-geekery, including n-key rollover even when
connected via USB, with futuristic looks, it is a top-notch offer.

~~~
fourk
How does this compare to the Das Keyboard in terms of pressure required on the
mechanical keycaps?

~~~
kgtm
I would bet they are the same, as they both utilize the Cherry MX Blue key
switches; 4 mm travel distance, key press registers at 2 mm, needs 50G
actuation force.

------
jbarham
I use a standalone ThinkPad keyboard (complete w/ pointer nub) and find it
very comfortable. It's also nice and compact since it doesn't include a number
pad.

------
Pistos2
I've worked with someone who looked at the keyboard when he typed, and overall
wasn't a very fast typist (I'd estimate < 50 WPM). He made frequent use of tab
completion and mouse-based copy-pasting. [Although he didn't use them] there's
also double-click and double-click-and-drag copying, and the "features" of
IDEs.

He produced code of quality on par with the rest of the team, and I never
thought of him as having a final-product throughput less than the rest of us
[who could type faster].

It's true that you can't hunt and peck and be even just a mediocre pianist,
but performing music necessitates keeping tempo -- you _must_ actuate your
instrument at the right time, and poor mechanical skill on your part has
direct and significant impact on the quality of the music. There is no such
analogous requirement in coding, other than perhaps deadlines -- but that is
obviously on an entirely different scale (no pun intended).

------
jrockway
Strange that Atwood only recommends the Realforce 87U. Although it is my
favorite (and primary) keyboard, the other Realforces are just as good. The
86U is nice, as are the 103 key variants. All have the same keyswitches and
variable weights, and all have very durable keycaps. I also have two Happy
Hacking keyboards (which are Topre switches, but without the Realforce's
variable weighting), and their keycaps are also very durable. I damaged one
once by an aggressive washing session (actually, using my hairdryer on it),
and was able to order a complete replacement set. It's nice to be able to buy
replacement parts when it breaks.

Anyway, Topre = love, no matter which one you get.

(Oh, and one thing... modern mechanical keyboards, Topre or otherwise, are
nothing like those Model Ms from 80s. The Topres have finger-saving 35/45/55g
variable weighting. The Model M actuation pressure is over 80g!)

------
baddox
How do the various mechanical keyboard mentioned here compare to an IBM Model
M keyboard? Are they as loud, etc.? I find typing on my M very satisfying, but
the volume truly is a problem, and I think even the weight of the key presses
might be a problem for lengthy typing sessions.

~~~
aaronblohowiak
Moving to a buckling-spring keyboard (similar action as the Model M) relieved
a great deal of forearm pain for me. I am naturally a furious typist, and the
increased resistance seems to help.

~~~
klodolph
I wonder if this is related -- it seems that people who wear shoes with less
padding (or no shoes) are less likely to get certain types of injuries. With
no padding, we strike the ground carefully. Wearing cushioned shoes, we strike
the ground with full force.

------
Qz
I use some junky 4 dollar Microsoft keyboard that came with my system. At
least, I thought it was junky, but it has the mechanical switch thing he's
talking about (I think? there's definitely no rubber inside here, clickety
clack all night long). It has one row of 'media buttons' or whatever that I
almost never use. I now actually go out of my way to avoid those kinds of
keyboards because all that extra junk is just wasted money.

I used to have a Logitech G15 but that was really more for the cool factor
rather than actually having a use for the LCD display (although I really do
miss having a button I can press to change between speaker/headphone mode for
my sound card without having to dig into Window's audio settings menu every
time I plug in or unplug my headphones).

------
antirez
I don't think the typing speed is so important for a programmer as a quality
_itself_. Ok there is all the "interface with the computer" business, but in
my opinion here the point is, it's strange that you managed to be a good
programmer and not a good typist, because getting good at programming requires
typing a lot of programs.

So either you are simply genetically not good typing, so even if you typed a
lot, and you are a good programmer, you are still a bad typist, or you did not
typed enough and perhaps did not programmed enough to be a good programmer.

Exceptions exist but I think the final possibility of being very good at
programming with little programming activity is very unusual and strange.

------
novel
I wonder why programmers think so much about keyboards. My speed is about
65-70WPM as typeracer shows. I'm pretty comfortable with that and can reach
the speed on almost any more or less sane qwerty keyboard.

I don't feel like I will be way more productive even if I reach 100 or more
WPM as thinking usually takes more time than typing (this goes for both
programming activities and writing documentation, emails etc).

Moreover, as I'm not addicted to some specific keyboard I feel quite
comfortable at any desk with any keyboard or laptop and I don't have to carry
my keyboard everywhere I go (which seems quite cumbersome).

------
rbanffy
I think, much like Microsoft before it, Oracle's best products now are
keyboards.

They have Control where God Intended It To Be (with the "Unix layout" option),
a nice stack of keys to the left and the overall RT-PC layout we use today.
X3701A-UNIX is the part#

I also find the 122-key IBM layout intriguing. Unicomp makes one
<http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/122keyterkey.html>

Those, I think, are the only ones I would consider to replace my obsolete
beige Microsoft Natural keyboard.

Those and a more modern take on the Space Cadet, but nobody seems to be doing
that.

~~~
astine
You mean Sun's keyboard business which Oracle acquired? I hate those, at least
the "Unix layout" ones. Some of these are installed at some of the
workstations at work. I don't mind having the control where the caplocks
usually is, but I do mind having thew caplock where the control usually is.
Because we have both layouts I have to constantly switch between them all the
time and I have to be careful and watch which keyboard I'm typing at or it
will screw me up. It's very annoying.

~~~
rbanffy
> I hate those, at least the "Unix layout" ones.

Don't say that. Those keyboards are great. I am thinking of buying a couple in
case Larry decides to ax the whole line just because its sheer coolness makes
their RDBMS look so meh...

Now, seriously, the added keys are useful (if you can make them do something),
like the 122-key I also mentioned. And there is also an element of nostalgia
for the golden age of the Sun workstation.

------
Figs
> What happens when people become trained to think of information and
> entertainment as something they receive and not something they create?

Well, how was it during all those decades when TVs were ubiquitous but PCs
were not?

~~~
michael_dorfman
_Well, how was it during all those decades when TVs were ubiquitous but PCs
were not?_

Pretty bad. Cf.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Arguments_for_the_Eliminat...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Arguments_for_the_Elimination_of_Television)

------
sdrinf
I've used to type exclusively on my handy IBM PS/2 keyboard (
<http://www.dansdata.com/images/clicky/ballboard1024.jpg> ). Not only was it a
beauty to behold, it was manufactured in 1983, had no performance degradation
either since then, or throughout the 5 years we spent together (-circa
2007(!!!)), and had an awesome tactile feedback.

Finally, the ps/2 port gave in to excessive wear, and I switched it to a deck.
Still have it in my old room, owning a piece from ancient history :)

~~~
wiredfool
I've got a pair of M13s that I use on a daily basis. They're the full sized
ones with a built in trackpoint nub in the middle. I wish they were narrower,
but I've mostly gotten around that by switching mouse hands.

------
atlei
Get a kinesis keyboard and learn to touch-type; it's probably the best
investment you'll ever make...

You'll save time when programming, but also when you create the
design/requirement/test documents, the help file, the web pages, your blog,
all your e-mails, your twitter messages, your IM and Facebook messages, and of
course your comments on Hacker News :-)

If you don't touch type, give yourself a good kick in the butt and start now
!!!!

An hour a day for a few weeks and you'll save time _every time you write
something for the rest of your life_ ...

------
csomar
My netbook LG X130 ([http://www.lg.com/ae/it-products/notebooks/LG-
netbook-X130.j...](http://www.lg.com/ae/it-products/notebooks/LG-
netbook-X130.jsp)) has got the most incredible keyboard I have ever seen. It's
easier, way lot faster to write with. May be because it's small, but I think
it has a particular precision over the keystroke I hit.

Really an amazing one, not sure what type of keyboards it is, but happy with
the experience.

------
roblund
Mechanicals are too loud for me most of the time, but I understand his point.
I enjoy a quality keyboard.

I've also never really liked the apple keyboards. It's nice to have some
contour to your keys instead of just flat.

Key layout is the thing that kills a keyboard for me more than anything. I've
brought home a few keyboards just to find out when I was unwrapping it that
the Insert and Delete key rows are goofy, or the arrow keys are all messed up.

------
duck
Mechanical keyboards are nice, but I think I would go crazy if I worked in an
office full of them. I have the small form Deck keyboard (
<http://www.deckkeyboards.com/product_info.php?products_id=30>) and love how
it doesn't have the number pad which pushes your mouse further away.

------
cgs1019
I use the cheap Microsoft keyboard that came with my work system. My favorite
feature is that in exchange for somewhat tedious hour I can dismantle and
thoroughly clean the damned thing. I am surprised that there was no mention of
cleanability in the article and that it has not yet come up in the thread.

------
ciupicri
If there's one thing that I hate at most "modern" keyboards, is the fact that
keys are a bit smaller and they seem to be more crowded.

------
points
The key travel on those keyboards is phenomenal. How do you not injure
yourself? Who is still using non-laptop style keyboards and why? :/

~~~
wyclif
Which keyboards are you talking about? Key travel is not the issue, it is the
actuation and positive response of the switch that matter.

~~~
points
Any 'desktop' style keyboard with big fat keys that travel down more than a
few mm.

I want as little key travel as possible. Typing on a desktop keyboard is slow
and tiring.

~~~
wyclif
I'm not sure about your 'desktop' distinction, as many laptop keyboards (the
MacBook Pro and many Windows laptops for that matter) have bigger keys than,
say, a Model M-type standalone keyboard.

