

Ask HN: Should I leave university? - Jgeros

Hey, I am currently trying to decide whether I should quit university. I am half way through my degree studying computer science, and feel as though I am learning nothing. I have self taught myself iPhone development and ruby on rails. People keep telling me that I'd be crazy to leave now and that I will get nowhere without a degree.<p>So my question is really would you hire me without a degree? If yes what is the best place to look for jobs?
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endtime
> I am half way through my degree studying computer science, and feel as
> though I am learning nothing. I have self taught myself iPhone development
> and ruby on rails.

It's a bit sad that you haven't learned that CS isn't about learning RoR and
Obj-C. :-/

When you say half way, I'm guessing you mean two years, which isn't really
half way at a lot of schools because you can only take 1-2 CS classes a
semester your first couple years. Imagine if you were going to major in
English, but you started illiterate and had to spend the first 1.5 years
learning to read and write. And then you announced, "Guys, I want to quit my
English degree...I've already taught myself to type and post messages on
Twitter." Quitting a CS major after 3-5 intro classes would be equally
misguided.

~~~
Jgeros
I have completed 8/14 CS classes so far, but I understand what you are saying.

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PedroCandeias
Hi Jgeros.

I guess it all comes down to motive. Do you have one for quitting? Feeling
like you're learning nothing is a good motive for switching universities, not
quitting.

When someone in the audience at Startup School 08 told Paul Graham that people
who completed college always ended up working for people who dropped out, the
look on PG's face as he shrugged out a "maaaaybe" was telling.

University doesn't yield only knowledge: there's also a lot of people to meet
and experiences to have. If your tuition expenses are covered and you don't
have a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity requiring you to drop out (personally
I'm suspicious of the "once-in-a-lifetime" concept), then the wisest thing to
do would be to stay.

From my own personal experience, if dropping out is right for you, you won't
_have_ to ask people what _they_ think.

------
dstein
Stay in school. Quitting school just "because" would probably be a mistake,
especially without a spectacular job offer already on the table. Yes, talented
people will succeed either way. But always ask yourself: "what if I'm wrong?"
What if you couldn't find a job after leaving? Are you prepared to start your
programming career unemployed? What if the current VC/angel activity ends
faster than you think? The last time and internet boom went bust it all
happened practically within 3 months.

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brianlash
Not having a degree is the type of thing you will be reminded of at nearly
every turn in your life. Even if it's a pain in the ass to get one, I imagine
it'll be an even greater pain explaining to employers at that you only left
because you didn't like it. Then you'll have _more_ convincing to do before
said employer believes you're up to snuff with other, degreed candidates.

There are more shades of gray for someone going into their first year. If
you're already halfway done I tend to think it'll be to your advantage to set
your jaw and grind through your last year or two.

~~~
andre3k1
My thoughts exactly. A degree is nothing more than a signal of your
intelligence. How else to show potential employers that you are in fact smart?

If money is the real issue, then transfer to a State school. Enjoy your time
in college, it only comes by once. You may seem bored and frustrated, but the
time will be gone before you know.

Work on launching your own startup. Failure right now is not a big deal. Make
the most of your time.

------
larsberg
People will probably hire you without a degree. But, you'll be looking for
jobs that want you for the skill set you currently (iPhone / Ruby) have rather
than for your future potential.

At the end of your CS education, there are a lot of jobs open to the "new
college graduate" that will likely never be open to you again. It's the one
time that you can be missing both the necessary skill and field experience and
still get hired. Examples: finance, game development, "big 3"
MSFT/Google/Facebook, etc. If you want to work in any selective places later,
you will have a hard time getting past the first level of "experienced
industry candidate recruiting" without your college degree, much less get your
resume into the hands of a hiring manager. You will perpetually be a slave to
only getting interviews at jobs where you have performed very similar work in
the past.

Of course, if you have some amazing idea, want to start a company, and feel
it's time-sensitive, go for it. Depending on the university, you can return
after 5 or so years without your credits expiring, whether the company turns
out well and you cash out or it crashes and burns.

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abmateen
I am a computer programmer , working with Android , Linux , iPhone, OS,
Networks etc, I have passion for computer. I was in the same condition as you
are in, I decided to drop out from university in 7th Semester ( 4th year ).
But I changed by decision because of practical reasons, I have two jobs, one
Linux Administration and one as Software Engineer without degree, but I
decided to continue , am still in 4th year 8th semester, what I advice you is
to continue instead of leaving, if you had got a chance to CS degree, I think
you should continue.

For sure, people will hire you without a degree, if you have good portfolio
and out of the box skills.

I want to share a experience of mine, I was offered a job in Samsung as
contract position , and my CV was selected. But I prefered to complete degree
before leaving. I think a degree is important, a piece of paper will give you
confidence in facing people and employers.

Thanks.

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charlesdm
My personal experience -- I did this 1.5 years ago.

First of all, you'll have a harder time getting a visa should you ever wish to
relocate to a different country.

That aside, it depends on the type of person you are. If you're the kind of
person that has no problem learning stuff on your own then it could work. This
really includes some of the core CS stuff such as having a good grasp of
algorithms, math, etc. Depending on the area you want to move in you'll have
to learn some more specific stuff as well. Consumer web .. learn how to deal
with scaling; Game development .. learn 3D oriented math. I'd say having a
solid grasp of the execution speed of algorithms is something important
regardless of the domain you're in. It will serve you a long way.

It is not so much what you know as what you can do. Can you read a paper on
some technical subject and then implement it? That sounds like something an
employer is interested in.

You should probably be more interested in working in smaller companies, since
they're more likely to hire talented individuals. Most big corporations are
built so that they can easily replace people should it be needed, smaller
companies not so much.

A tip for the job hunt: Get a programming portfolio. Since you don't have a
degree you'll have to show your skills, but that's no problem! Put your best
work on it. :)

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

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wdewind
So I did this last summer and it was the best decision I've ever made. I was
miserable at NYU and already had some work experience. I waited til the summer
and sent my resume out a lot and ended up with two entry level offers at
startups. I took the better of the two, and a year and two jobs later I'm at a
really good company earning much more money, and much happier in general in
life than I was in school.

But an important consideration here is learning, and that too has
substantially increased. When I was in school I felt held back: there were a
ton of projects I wanted to work on that I simply didn't have the time to
because I would have to take bullshit like Spanish. Now I'm surrounded all the
time by programmers, and ones who are much much smarter than I am, and I get
to absorb tons of knowledge much more quickly than I ever did in class. And
instead of paying $100k over the next two years, I'm earning $160k with much
more control and overall happiness in my life.

It's pretty crucial you have a fair amount of experience "for your age", and
definitely don't do this without an offer on the table. But if you get to that
point, and you've got a decent offer, I say go for it. TLDR: Because I dropped
out I get paid a lot instead of paying a lot, to live a life that's
substantially better, and I'm learning a hell of a lot more. Win.

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beseku
After my first job out of Uni, I never needed my degree. Until 7 years later
when I wanted to move to Japan. Alot of countries won't let you get a visa
without a degree, or at least will make it very difficult.

Even if I never need to use it for work again, allowing me to make this move
makes sitting through horrible, boring and outdated lectures infinitely worth
it.

~~~
Jgeros
Thank you for this, hadn't thought about that before.

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brownegg
Do not quit school. What looks expensive (in terms of time, money, and effort)
now will look incredibly cheap later.

"Lots of people have done great without a degree," is crap. Lots of people
make $1m+ / yr dunking basketballs, too.

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rcfox
If you've already taught yourself some stuff, then of course you're going to
feel like you're not learning in the first half of a university program.
You're not learning; you're waiting for those who haven't already learned to
catch up.

That's not to say that you won't learn though. Take a compilers course, or an
OS course. Or, better yet, switch into something you don't already know a
great deal about, like pure math or physics. This will soon cure you of these
thoughts of not learning.

You'd be crazy to not continue with your education if you can manage to do so.

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j_baker
You know, I have a friend who went to law school to become a lawyer. After he
got out, he realized that all the people who told him he should go to law
school weren't lawyers.

To me it sounds like you might be misunderstanding CS and might want to re-
evaluate if you really want to do it. However, because people tell you that
you "need" a degree is a terrible reason to stay in school.

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rcfox
Sure, lots of people will hire you without a degree.
<http://buttersafe.com/2010/09/09/back-to-school-blues/> ;)

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adrianscott
Lots of people will hire you without a degree. Most of my team members in the
last few years that I recruited had not completed their bachelors.

A lot of people here are giving you average advice. If you want to be an
average programmer, you can listen to their advice. I don't recommend trying
to be an avg programmer.

If you don't do the degree thing, all you need to do is build your rep / brand
online, which is nowadays quite easy to do, for those willing to put a little
bit of time into it.

Oh, and if you're actually paying for univ and also 20 yrs or older, that
should make the decision easier. It's not the great value it once (maybe) was.

Hope this helps,

~~~
Jgeros
I am about to turn 20 and am paying for Uni myself, by working two jobs at the
moment (1 programming, 1 retail)

~~~
adrianscott
At the end of the day, it's about what you think will be most effective for
you in order to learn better and become more valuable and create more value.

Credentials are used as a proxy for actual measurement of ability and
capability, and they are becoming less necessary as we are better able to
assess the same through more accurate methods.

------
sz
Consider finishing your degree but with a different concentration, like
statistics (always useful), or physics (awesome).

~~~
markstahler
I wish I did my degree in Physics and just took the advanced Computer Science
classes.

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arsh
lots of well known it people have never finished one, but they have made
AMAZING things.... so go ahead and do something real good and people wont mind
about a degree...

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jeffffff
you don't need a degree to make web apps/desktop apps/mobile apps. if you ever
get bored with that and want to do something else you might regret quitting.

------
morphir
quoting Lance Armstrongs mom: pain is temporary - quitting lasts forever. (in
this context, pain == bore)

------
earth
I was possibly in the same situation, sick of working full time too to pay to
hang out with a bunch of kids who are spoilt and complain about too many
things.

A few reasons I gave myself to dropout(defer) were I don't think I want to
work for people who thought a degree was essential and only smart people had
them.

I wanted to work for myself quite a bit. I also wanted to have a go at a
startup which was impossible when trying to do time wasting uni assignments.

I knew I could go back if I had to, a year break would be a fair amount of
time to see if there were limitations with no degree.

I know that I still have an advantage over uni students whereas they only
learn when their force to by lecturers. Where as I like learning and do it
daily at my own free will.

I've been off for a year and had a great time and not having a degree hasn't
stopped me from doing what I wanted to do.

Keep us posted

