
64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant - myth_drannon
https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thesundayedition/the-sunday-edition-for-january-27-2019-1.4989313/64-and-unemployed-one-man-s-struggle-to-be-taken-seriously-as-a-job-applicant-1.4991626
======
towaway1138
I'm only in my 50s, but this is very relateable. Did a couple dozen interviews
a year or two ago before finally getting a bite. Somewhat amazingly, even
passed the hiring committee at a FANG, only to get swatted down by a rare
strike from the executive level.

In one interview, was asked to produce a class that could serialize and
deserialize a list of numbers, to/from a string of chars. Sure, it's not that
hard. Took maybe ten minutes? A few tests, it worked fine. They
declined--"your skills seem rusty". Huh?

I'm in good health and much better financial situation than the guy in the
story. But without being too grim, I've accepted that someday I might run
completely out of money. If I can't get hired in tech, I'll give McDonald's a
shot--it's honest work. Failing that, I'll make my graceful exit.

~~~
crispyambulance
I find it disturbing he can't find work as a project manager. If anything,
that's one role where the practitioners typically know fuck-all about nothing
and where good ones are worth their weight in gold.

I LOVE to work with ADULT project managers who have a clue about how projects
actually unfold and how things actually get done with a wide variety of
personalities in the mix. Instead, more often than not, you get
20-30-something "management fast-track" wannabe's who could not solve a
problem to save their lives.

~~~
perryh2
In today's world of agile development, I haven't met any project managers
worthy of anything. I feel that strong product managers are capable of
managing development as well. I can't believe there are actual people getting
paid to move JIRA tickets around full-time.

~~~
Justsignedup
Good project management is invisible. They just make projects happen. They
make sure everyone is talking. They make sure decisions are made. Everyone
knows what to do when to do it. Etc.

I seen good project management. It is magical. Then the manager left.
Everything slowed down to a crawl.

~~~
JMTQp8lwXL
Invisible makes it sound intangible. If you can't quantify the value you're
adding to an organization, are you adding any at all?

Making sure "the right people are talking", "decisions are made", etc. do
sound like things that can be tracked to confirm if a PM is indeed adding
value.

~~~
crispyambulance

        > If you can't quantify the value you're adding to an organization, are you adding any at all?
    

The problem with that line of thought is that it's not at all easy (or even
possible) to quantifiably measure performance on an individual basis. This is
especially true for roles like PM's whose job is to enable the labor and
talent of others.

~~~
JMTQp8lwXL
Many roles are difficult to quantifiably measure. The same is true for
software engineers-- suppose two developers are shipping code, but one writes
2x as many lines of code. Do we say they're twice as productive, or delivering
twice as much business value? Not necessarily.

But there should be something that can be measured, even if it's imprecise, to
at least show that something's being done. How do you measure the success
criteria for the role of a PM? It's challenging. But it should be done.

~~~
crispyambulance
Measure and "quantifiably measure" are two different things. I agree that
performance can and should be evaluated, however, for many jobs that is an
intrinsically subjective task.

There's nothing wrong with that. It's just the nature of such roles.

You still evaluate, you just don't boil it down to one "score".

------
zmmmmm
It's tragic and I wish younger devs could have even a small understanding of
how pernicious this phenomenon is. No, you won't escape it because you're
awesome, or because you love learning new things etc etc.

I'm lucky: I switched into a role where deep domain experience is essential, I
did a PhD, I'm one of the top experts in a growing field - I'm more or less
insulated from this. Indeed, now I hire people and I'm actually one of the
perpetrators of it. We get resumes, I look at them, and inevitably many of the
younger people are both (a) cheaper and (b) more on-target with their skill
sets. Then there is a much more subtle and non-explicit discrimination on top
of that which involves a presumption that an experienced person will not be
"happy" working in what they would perceive as a junior level role. That they
would find another position and leave. So they honestly can't win - if they
don't have the skills they don't get hired, if they do, it is presumed they
are too experienced to be happy in the job.

There must be a massive wave of ageing developers that is coming that is 10x
the size of what we have seen so far. Something will have to change somewhere,
hopefully it will help us all discard some of these discriminatory practices.

~~~
austincheney
The presumption about the junior level role is accurate but for reasons
different than what you are thinking. It’s less about the work and more about
the people.

Some junior developers have the potential to be great senior developers. They
listen to mentorship and independently weigh decision criteria.

Many juniors don’t have this potential and some shouldn’t even be there in the
first place. The need for recognition, entitlement, and fear of challenges are
common behaviors that are anti-thetical to becoming a senior. In the extreme
shitty juniors will become hostile when they feel threatened. It is easy to
feel threatened when a good senior can output superior quality work in a fifth
of the time.

Why would any competent person want to deal with that immaturity and
insecurity? That kind of stupidity doesn’t just make me want to leave the job.
It makes me want to abandon the career. You have to understand the senior
person isn’t there to attack anybody or take anybodys job. They just don’t
want to play the defensive survival games their peers may not realize they are
playing.

If it weren’t for the people a junior role wouldn’t be so bad. A strong senior
will find a way to shape it into something better, or will learn to manipulate
things until large amounts of free time are exposed.

~~~
JMTQp8lwXL
I take it you've worked with some junior engineers that brought neither the
social nor the technical skill to their role.

Instead of considering them to be "so bad", an adept senior would work to
develop these people. As a senior, use your social acuity, and bring your
emotional intelligence to the table. If your juniors feel threatened, talk
about it. Assuage their fears -- point out where they are doing well, and
where they can improve. Work through the difficult problems, most likely
individually, but through team retrospectives too (when appropriate-- never
give individual feedback in a group setting).

This sounds like the approach is to avoid juniors as much as possible. And
it's challenging to foster a high-performing team environment if that's the
mindset one employs going into it.

~~~
austincheney
I am a big fan of mentoring by tough love. Unfortunately, many juniors stop at
tough. I can understand frustration and the anxiety that comes with unfamiliar
challenges. What I don't understand is the constant desire for recognition or
needing to be _right_ like a simple decision is a battle for dominance.

I am all about mentoring people, but I do not savor working in an adult day
care. The difference is whether the junior takes honest feedback and accept
challenges or whether the junior wants immediate gratification. That
distinction really comes down to personality and the wrong personalities are a
real downer.

------
WestCoastJustin
The population of this town is 6,300 [1]. This area of Canada is not known for
tech ( _at all_ ). I totally feel for this guy, it must totally suck, but
moving might be a good option too. Or, try starting a business or remote work,
if you have to live there. These are all hard things to do, but if you are
really down and out, all options should be on the table. Or, look for
something in a different line of work, where maybe you can leverage your tech
skills? I know this isn't what the thread it about, as age is a major theme
here. But, this seems like a little clickbait given there are likely not many
jobs in this town. You could likely burn though all the job postings in a few
days. I know this comes across as totally tone deaf too.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentville](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentville)

~~~
mikekchar
The number of people I know who would _kill_ to be able to move back to Nova
Scotia is absolutely huge. Whatever jobs there are will have huge competition
and very low wages.

I'm kind of in the same boat. 51. Working remotely while living in rural
Japan. If I lose my job (or quit), it's either get another remote job or move.
If I can't get a remote job quickly, I will not wait to find someone willing
to relocate me -- I'll be on the first plane to somewhere huge where I can get
a job.

------
maerF0x0
I feel for this guy. Ageism is completely real and mostly missing from D&I
initiatives.

However there is a 2nd lesson to be learned here. Why in the world does he not
have any savings at 64? The article is scant on details, but does mention he
was in the computer industry from his 20s, and raised his son, say, until
roughly his 40s. That leaves 20 prime years of earning power w/o savings?
Something is amiss.

To me this is the lesson learned. If you're in the IT space, live way below
your means. Most of us should be earning fantastic salaries and saving it for
the day when the same industry that called us "Rock Stars" dumped us as fast
as one leaving their 15 minutes (read: years) of fame.

~~~
yardie
I don't like this blaming of people for not having foresight. You can do
everything right and still lose it all.

Let's say he started a 401K in his 20s and slid the meter all the way to right
(riskier investments). He would have encountered:

\- 1980 recession, the one that got Reagan elected.

\- 1990 recession, the one that got Clinton elected.

\- 2001 recession, this one mainly affected tech workers.

\- 2008 recession, this is the major one.

The GFC in 2008 have left a lot of older workers in the lurch. Many are now
coming up on retirement and they were heavily invested in the stocks and not
so much bonds. In my case my parents have lost $80k in their 401K. They have
only just recovered.

And that example is just 401k, IRA. We won't even get into other matters such
as health, divorce, property, lawsuits, failed businesses.

~~~
maerF0x0
I see your point, however we all should have long term savings that we do not
touch, even if things are falling apart. That used to be how pensions were.

Also keep in mind this guy is in Canada and the GFC was not nearly as severe
as in the USA.

~~~
wolco
Canada has lower salaries and higher taxes resulting in lower savings. But in
a year should have cpp/old age.

~~~
fleur-de-lotus
Higher taxes is a form of compulsory savings. If they get sick, they don't go
bankrupt.

------
throwaway24572
So here's some hiring anti-patterns I've seen, it's not just millennial
managers, but I've seen these patterns in lots of companies and interviews.

1\. Managers that want to hire people they could be best friends with.
Drinking buddies, social media socialites, etc. Don't confuse this with hiring
their best friends, they just feel more comfortable around people that they
could socialize with.

2\. Managers that don't want anyone to undermine their technical authority.
And the best way a manager with 5 years of experience can keep his authority
is to not hire an engineer with 20 years of professional experience.

3\. Managers that think the culture of a company would turn more boring if
they hired middle-aged workers. So they must hire young people only. They can
usually get away with it if they hire 80% college graduates mostly.

4\. There must be something wrong with the person if he didn't get into
management by the age of 50.

~~~
democracy
Strongly disagree with #4. If you stay in middle management you are basically
the easiest target for company "re-structuring" and your position will be made
obsolete in a moment - as you are expensive, visible and easily replaceable
with a more enthusiastic/younger/cheaper/less vocal individuals. I have seen
it many times, such people are unemployable after years of management on this
level.

~~~
geodel
This seems very true to me. I have only middle managers survive are un-
management like. They would join 3 AM troubleshooting, prod deployment calls,
be available on weekends. In general about as much concerned as tech lead if
not more.

------
john_moscow
Disclaimer: I don't approve ageism in tech, I'm merely trying to explain the
reasoning of the other side of the negotiation table.

The unspoken truth about the job market is that the older you get, the more
you should rely on your network when finding jobs. Simply maintain
professional contact with 5-20 people that worked with you, know that you can
deliver and would recommend you (citing the projects you successfully
completed together), hire you directly, or at least give you a gig. Yes, it's
a completely orthogonal skill to doing the actual job, but this is something
that successful hires do.

So if a 65-year-old person files a cold-call application for a management
position (that involves building professional relationships with your
colleagues in order to make things succeed), it is very reasonable to ask what
happened to their network and why nobody from the network would not have
recommended them.

The article actually gives a hint when it mentions selling the assets and
accumulating credit card debts. I'm sorry to say that, but this is an evidence
of poor resource management. A good resource management strategy in this case
would be:

1\. Damn, I've lost my job. OK, I have X months on runway. Let's try to find
another management position.

2\. Oops, my runway is at 80% with no offers. I get 10% conversion ratio from
applications to interviews and 0% from interviews to offers. Let's cut down
expenses and try experimenting with what I do on the interviews.

3\. Crap, runway is at 60%, still no offer. Let's kick down and try to find a
dev position.

4\. Runway is at 40%, no offer as a dev, still 100% cutoff after the
interview. Let's try to apply for a remote position.

5\. Runway is at 20%. Get a freakin' trade that people can realistically do in
my age, secure recurring income, try to step up and find a remote dev job.

Nothing personal, but if you cannot manage that, you will likely not succeed
at managing a multi-million dollar software project either.

~~~
hpcjoe
This. On the network. This.

For you young whippersnappers (say up to 35), get out, talk to people. Get
known. Go to conferences. Establish a reputation.

For you older folks (36+), you might not believe you have a network, but
LinkedIn is, despite being crappy in a number of ways, a reasonably good tool
for growing your network, connecting with people, and so on. I am not talking
about its "jobs" features. I am talking about reaching out and connecting with
good people you know, who happen to be networked to someone you might like to
meet.

------
woogiewonka
I'm a consultant in my 30s and I worry about my 50's and 60's. I feel like, if
I don't get a recurring revenue product going that sells itself without the
trade of time for money, I'll be totally screwed. I've tried and failed a few
times on various projects, and it feels like time is running out. There are
definitely fewer attempts left in me and it takes a hell of a lot of energy to
stay positive and try all over.

------
rmason
You want to know a secret for finding engineers as a startup? Be open to
hiring any fifty and over engineer that you verify can do the work. Word will
get out and you will be flooded with qualified applicants.

I can imagine telling your VC's, oh no we don't use agencies and spend at most
5% of the CEO's time on hiring. When they express puzzlement just tell them a
wise mentor gave you his secret.

~~~
taftster
Yeah, I don't get this age-ism thing at all. I'm approaching my 50's, and I'm
still climbing in my effectiveness and productivity. I haven't even yet
reached the top of my game yet. I am getting better every year.

Proportionally, I bring to the table 5-10x (at least) greater value than those
just-out-of-school with no experience. But I'm only paid 1.5x of their salary.

Granted, there are some folks out there that have been slacking off their
whole careers, and after 20+ years, they're very good at it. But in terms of
dollar spent to unit of value, I believe mid-career folks like me are way more
economically valuable overall.

------
fecak
Professional resume writer and career consultant here, approaching 50, and
I’ve helped rehabilitate careers of many clients in similar situations. The
line that caught my eye was his quote “I have been unemployed for a long
time." I believe the stigma of extended unemployment is worse than ageism.

What I do is a mix of marketing (maximize assets, minimize liabilities,
optimize everything), strategy for job search (beyond “spray and pray” resume
broadcasting), and building confidence for interviews and the general
approach. You have to believe you’ve earned a seat at the table.

There is always more to stories like this. Qualified candidates can overcome
ageism with proper understanding of the market conditions.

~~~
jrumbut
I'd like to believe this but I've seen some really great contributors just get
unlucky for 6 months or more, and then all of a sudden it's been a year and
things are starting to look strange.

It's a great market for developers to get hired, but it's still possible to
fall through the cracks especially if you aren't good at the specific skill of
job searching.

~~~
fecak
I appreciate the thoughts, and luck does play a part but there are definitely
methods to maximize your chances. I tend to find many older workers aren’t
aware of how to find a job in the modern market or how to best approach
companies. Job search has changed significantly in just the past few years,
let alone the past decade.

------
sakoht
I'm 45 and I know a bunch of people far older than me who are highly-valued on
their teams. Even in Silicon Valley I found younger engineers enjoy working
with super-experienced people _IF_ those years actually translated to
expertise. What you can't do is sit on your ass for decades then expect to be
rewarded for treading water when the cozy job at BigCo finally dries up. All
of the computing industry gets more competitive each year. Age gives you a
head start if you are _actually_ using the time to keep growing, IMO. Often,
people get older and get comfy and stop learning, or they lose the ability to
related to younger talent on the team, which is just an essential business
skill, like it was when you were young and had to relate to older people. And,
if you actually have real skills, but a company won't hire you because the
leaders think superficially, you should filter them from the list of companies
you stake your future on.

------
cyberferret
As an aside from the OP, I am 52 and building a startup. I often get the
feeling when talking to accelerators and angel investors etc. that they balk
when seeing my age. Experience doesn't seem to count for much these days -
they seem to be looking for 20-something old young people who are prepared to
'hustle' and 'crush it' and work 20 hour days.

I am willing to bet that most founders who started their companies 10+ years
ago would struggle to get a job at those same companies now if they approach
them as an applicant off the street today.

~~~
ilamont
In startup accelerator world, people with white hairs are brought in when the
the team needs an "adult" to manage things. At an earlier stage, having
someone who is 35 or 45 or 55 or 65 might make the VCs and advisors feel
awkward.

------
avmich
1) Have a friend (more better) who can hire you. It's usually better to look
for programming work when you're employed.

2) Work (or rather, look for work) remotely; this is already mentioned.

3) Work through a contracting company, preferably owned by you. Let somebody
else - maybe much younger if needed - do negotiations with customer companies.
After those companies start seeing your work, age issues can be reduced.

------
Zigurd
So far, this hasn't been my experience. I've written books. I have a very
strong network among funders and experienced management. I'm probably in the
top few percent of candidates my age because I consciously built those
advantages, some of which can't be reproduced by everyone in my age cohort
looking for a job. But, just because I saw ageism coming at me, doesn't mean
that it is excusable.

Age discrimination is something that needs to be eradicated in tech as much as
sexism and racism. I won't mince words: I mean sexism and racism, not "lack of
diversity." Ageism is just as bad. Investors: If your portfolio is infected
with these diseases, it raises your risk. Inoculate against it. Don't fund
diseased founders.

~~~
barrkel
Indeed. By definition, not everyone can be in the top few percent.

~~~
Zigurd
I hope it's clear that that is effect and not cause.

------
daly
I have 50 years of programming, co-authored 4 commercial languages, many
technical papers, years of research, lead developer on open source, work on
hardware (FPGAs), robotics, operating systems, and AI.

When I get the results of my interviews it always includes the phrase "not a
good culture fit" (translation: too old).

When I tried to join a class action suit against one company the lawyer told
me that the language was VERY specific and would exclude me (and many, many
others).

------
cottsak
If you're listening David, here are my suggestions. Keep in mind I don't have
nearly the wealth of experience you would obviously have.

* Refresh both [http://www.avidaid.ca/](http://www.avidaid.ca/) your websites with a modern feel [http://www.avidaidmedia.ca/](http://www.avidaidmedia.ca/) Hire a designer for a fixed price on [https://www.upwork.com/](https://www.upwork.com/) or other freelancer site. Your potential employers will look you up and they don't want to find dated visuals like these. If you don't want to refresh the look of both sites, then take one down. An asset should make you look good, not detract from the perception it might create for you.

* Make sure your site(s) are HTTPS. Get on google and figure out how to do this (or pay the upwork freelancer to do it) and then it can be a talking point in an interview (how passionate you are about security and privacy, for example).

* Remove the word "President" from "President, Senior Project Manager and Consultant at Avidaid Inc." on your CV/linkedin. If you're going to a PM or consulting role then you have to have other roles which show you've done this recently. The "President" thing could work against you: "wow, this guy probably wants way more then we're prepared to pay"

* Maybe try dressing down just a tad - a some nice chinos or a collared shirt but not tucked in perhaps. I'm kinda spitballing here so just have a think about it. If the companies have heaps of younger folks then maybe you could do something to make them feel a little more comfortable in the interview. I personally know I'd be pretty intimidated if a candidate came in all suited up for a PM role. I'm not saying you want the "golf course" look. Just something a little more relaxed perhaps?

* Lastly, the "corporation" and "us" language on your website avidaid.ca is not going to work in your favour I don't think. Your linkedin [https://www.linkedin.com/in/dwimsett/](https://www.linkedin.com/in/dwimsett/) and the tired website suggest there are heaps of folks working at your consultancy. I can only assume this is a false pretence given the CBC article. I would prefer to see a portfolio which talks about "you"!!! (personally) and highlights projects, interactions and specific work-related interests which you are likely to be passionate about. This will excite me as a hiring manager.

I hope this helps mate.

~~~
freewilly1040
Those sites are rough. Another option is a website builder like Squarespace,
Wix, or Weebly. Might be cheaper than Upwork and will at least get you started
with a decent layout / theme.

------
4thaccount
Heartbreaking. I'm only partially in what could be considered tech, but I
constantly try to move groups in my industry every few years to constantly
pick up new skills. I honestly think I have enough random skills now:
databases, programming, systems integration, mastery of a variety of common
industry tools, project leadership, specific domain theory and understanding
of the math that underlays my industry. However, is it enough and if the whole
industry fades, where do I go next?

~~~
maxxxxx
The problem with tech is that if you did something just a few years ago you
are considered "outdated" and this experience doesn't count. For example I
wrote heavy duty C++ code until 2012 for more than 10 years but during
interviews I often get zero credit for this experience. "You haven't used C++
17".

~~~
justaguyhere
When I was on my first job, we got a resume from someone twenty years older
than us. Her resume was tossed aside quickly, but I fought with HR to get her
to interview with us. She easily turned out to be the best hire ever for our
team - she didn't know Java from assembly, but her common sense and problem
solving abilities were orders of magnitude higher than any of the "young, hip,
programming wizards" in the company at the time. If not for her, my team
would've failed miserably. More than a decade later, I still fondly and humbly
remember her.

Any time I see younger folks ignoring/mistreating older folks, it annoys me to
no end. As a industry, we need to learn to value experience and wisdom as much
as we value speed and smartness. And we don't need to accept just because "HR
said so" or "manager said so". At minimum, we need to make them understand
that there are lots of older folks who can be great asset to the organization.

end rant!

~~~
devonkim
To me, this is what bugs me about the “diversity” brigade - most of the time
the conversation is based around ethnicity, physical abilities, or gender but
for being long-term thinking we seem to have forgotten that diversity means
_everyone_ that can contribute, including age / experience. Simply being old
doesn’t necessarily make you better or faster, but it does tend to give you
skills. Skills that were acquired over a long career. Skills that make them a
nightmare for obscure bugs.

Some folks I’ve hired were older than my father but I valued them for their
experience in other industries and to lend their perspectives to how things
should be. It is heartbreaking to think that we could be throwing away
thousands or millions of man years of valuable lessons - some we should repeat
and others we shouldn’t.

~~~
maxxxxx
That’s one thing I have noticed in all diversity material. It’s always young
good looking people. There are no older, overweight, disabled or other types
of people. It seems the diversity movement has changed the favored groups but
I am not sure it’s much more inclusive.

~~~
justaguyhere
I guess everyone's idea of diversity is different and no-one's idea includes
_every_ group :(

------
akeck
I wonder if he'd have an easier time as a architect/IT-planning consultant.
Clients may perceive less financial risk and grey hair might actually be an
asset. I'm acutely aware of my ticking career clock after reading several of
these stories in the last year.

------
randomacct3847
My singular focus right now as a “Millennial” is to save enough before 40 to
retire if I choose to and, at the same time, figure out how to become self
sufficient so that I am not reliant on someone else for income by 35.

Effectively I want to “retire” from having a “job” working for someone else
long before I “retire” from earning income.

~~~
sridca
What's the catch though? Higher stress during 20s and 30s?

~~~
randomacct3847
High earning job and living well below means with a good amount of luck

~~~
marketgod
Look into index funds and Bogle heads lazy portfolio. There are communities
dedicated to financial independence (FIRE) on the internet that can help you
with these goals.

------
democracy
I also find it interesting as with the experience it is more difficult to
answer certain interview questions. 10 years ago a question like "how do you
make sure your code changes in production do not cause outages" wouldn't cause
me any headaches but now I am getting stuck as this is something I can talk
about for hours and I need to know the context and the details of it so I
start thinking what the scope of my answer should be and what they want to
hear from me in the next minute or two and that I probably have to squeeze my
experience into this two minutes and it is hardly possible so what should I
start with? While I am thinking about all this, it probably looks like I have
nothing to say at all. It's sad :)

------
omgoodness7
A portion of y’all are 20 somethings who do not know real life. Refrain from
giving life advice.

~~~
tasuki
Wasn't that the whole point of this: not to discriminate based on age?

------
packetpirate
I feel bad for the guy because my dad goes through the same thing, being in IT
and being 66, it's hard for him to find anything.

But stop blaming everything on millennials, damn it. We didn't create age bias
and blaming millennials for everything is such a cop-out that ignores real
issues. Latching onto this idea that millennials are out to get you "because
millennials" is extremely toxic and is the reason why there's such a
generational divide.

------
skizm
I feel like there is less of a stigma for older contractors. Might be a good
idea if you’re getting older in a tech career to shift from full time to
contract work?

~~~
UnpossibleJim
Health insurance is a son of a bitch when you're older, though =[ it's not
necessarily a bad plan, but those insurance rates go through the roof.

~~~
WestCoastJustin
He's from Canada. We get basic medial coverage for free. Well, if you are not
working it is free, if you are working it is like $50-100/month (depending on
your pay level). This is often covered by your employer too, again if you are
working. So, there is no real issues there as he gets older.

~~~
UnpossibleJim
Oh, that's awesome! Remind me to move to Canada... Vancouver isn't too far
from Seattle =) tax rate isn't _that_ much higher, these days, either from my
understanding (depending on your income).

Edit: Though, you guys aren't taking us in anymore as easily, these days,
though huh? =) I say this all _mostly_ in jest. I do think things will even
out here and cooler minds will prevail, eventually.

~~~
pinewurst
Vancouver tech salaries though are terrible by comparison with Seattle or even
Toronto.

------
purplezooey
These workers often outperform younger ones. It's well known. To make such
poor decisions as a manager they are disadvantaging their own company.

------
butterfi
I'm starting to notice that in the Bay Area, older tech workers are more
stable then fresh transplants, simply because we've been around long enough to
get affordable housing. I make about 15k less then I might otherwise, but its
not really an issue for me because I own my home.

------
steve_taylor
Someone on HN recently recommended a book called Developer Hegemony and I'm a
bit over a third of the way through it. If you're starting to approach the age
where discrimination will become an issue, and you're of the opinion that
you'd better start climbing the corporate ladder as high and fast as you can
in order to avoid unemployment, I recommend reading at least the first 1/3 or
so of this book. (I don't yet know what the remaining 2/3 is about.)

------
decentrality
[https://www.linkedin.com/in/dwimsett](https://www.linkedin.com/in/dwimsett)

------
eweise
This story scares me. I'm not that far off from my 60s and still have kids to
get through high school and college. My strategy is to keep my tech skills
even as I move more into management. Hopefully, after I'm deemed to old to
work in silicon valley, I can still do remote contract work slinging code.

------
avodonosov
Unsatisfied expectations of the interviewer?

Maybe it's better to list full experience, instead of limiting to 20 years?
And mention the age.

To prepare them better, rather than surprising.

At least he would need to spend less time on interviews with people not ready
to hire a 64 year old, and only talk to people who are ready.

~~~
democracy
That is not a good advice. If you wait for this ideal role for your skills/age
- it might never happen. They will not agree you are an ideal candidate even
if you tick each checkbox from your perspective (or someone else was quicker
or cheaper or whatever). One should try every opportunity as the things are
very often unpredictable in the job search quest.

~~~
avodonosov
IMHO the opportunity reduces if you plan to surprize them at the in person
interview by the difference between the impression your resume makes and the
reality.

They invited a different guy than shows up at the interview - it's difficult
to call an opportunity.

------
djhaskin987
My father started feeling this in his 50's, then he got his master's degree
and his callback rate increased significantly. Now he's in his 60's he's
getting a PhD so he'll be marketable as an old guy, even if that is just as an
adjunct professor.

~~~
hpcjoe
FWIW, the adjunct role is very low pay, for quite a bit of work. They pay you
for contact hours. 2 lectures per week is 2-4 contact hours. They don't pay
you for time grading, traveling, answering questions/office hours, etc.

I've looked at doing that (PhD and over 50) to augment my own income, but the
time commitment is huge, compared to the compensation.

------
pvaldes
He knows where is the problem but does not use this knowledge to take a
proactive stance.

"yes I know that I'm old, BUT shouldn't be a problem for the job because... (I
keep learning, update my skills often, can do X) ... etc, etc"

~~~
WaltPurvis
>> _take a proactive stance_

What would that entail?

~~~
pvaldes
Address the point in the first minutes of the interview and turn it into an
advantage.

If the other part is nervous about your age, talk casually about how this will
not be a problem. Be humble, calm, and redirige the conversation toward
focusing in your best skills, from more modern to more old techniques. Skills
that you can offer because you are not so young as the other candidates, and
you love your job enough to keep trying even if you not became an unstable
rockstar/diva programmer.

Agree that dying the hair a little, at his home would help. Just to pass from
all white to some shade of grey. A 64 man with silky black hair would look
ridiculous.

------
Overtonwindow
This is what I fear the most. Fortunately I am in an industry that values age
and experience over youth, but requires that experience to consistently
advance.

------
redleggedfrog
I wonder how much this applies to any type of manager, not just a software
project manager. Is the ageism a problem with tech, or just a problem?

------
irrational
I'm in my mid-40s and I worry about this - a lot.

~~~
tmm84
I'm in my mid-30s and I worry about this a lot too. This age has no concept of
human lifespan.

------
ctrager
I'm retired and I think my money situation is good but STILL when I read the
article and comments I feel a spike of anxiety, PTSD-like.

------
randyrand
Just curious: why do age discrimination laws only disallow discrimination
against older ages?

Even if discriminating against people age 20-30 is more rare, what's the
advantage of allowing it?

It seems like a hard sell to say "you should care about age discrimination"
but to enact age discriminatino laws that literally discriminate based on age.
Maybe this moral inconsistency is why more people don't care/do more about it.

------
ChucklesNorris
Age discrimination is rampant and yet illegal. Corporations ought to be fined
for having a workforce younger than the average age of the country's citizens.
That would help people like the man in this article.

But I wonder, at 64, hasn't he applied for Social Security? It wasn't
mentioned. It's not much, but it's better than nothing.

------
rms25
All you young wild devs, you'll be the death of me, the death of me

------
swayvil
Engineering is for the young and stupid. A man his age should be playing with
his kid and cultivating a nice garden.

------
dbg31415
I'm pushing 40 and I can already feel a gap between myself and the
20-somethings. I don't get all of their jokes, I don't know the popular bars
or bands, and I don't like doing anything that involves thumb-typing. I think
a lot of employment is just done by "smell" \-- does this person smell like
one of "us" or is he an outsider. And I know that at my age, I'm already
starting to stink.

So not to pick on the author too much, but he makes the claim, "Actually, I am
very much with it. Every year, I read the equivalent of a university
semester's worth of books and attend seminars to keep up with the industry and
its latest trends." If I were him there are some things I would do to freshen
up.

1) I'd consider going with a modern template for my company site. He has his
own company that he runs consulting projects through, but it looks very dated.
Simple WordPress instance with a generic theme would be better. Seems like
he'd have the skillset required to set that up.

* Avidaid · Project Management · Web Development & Software Design · IT Education || [http://www.avidaid.ca/index.php](http://www.avidaid.ca/index.php)

2) I'd prune content off my LinkedIn and resume. He mentioned 20 years, I
don't think there's any reason for anyone to list more than 10 years of work
history.

* David Wimsett | LinkedIn || [https://www.linkedin.com/in/dwimsett/](https://www.linkedin.com/in/dwimsett/)

3) I'd try and re-write the content for a specific job. I wouldn't go broad,
I'd go targeted. He seems keen on being a PM, so I'd limit all work to just PM
work. Tell a story, make it a good one. If there's a boring part, or part that
isn't relevant to your next job, just leave it out. It's OK to have gaps.

Change this:

> My background is wide and varied. Most of my career has been spent in IT as
> a developer, business analyst and project manager for different industries.
> But, I have practiced professionally in many areas to include photography,
> film making, journalism, blogger, columnist, graphic design, educator,
> consultant and security expert to name a few. I am also a published author
> of short stories and novels. This expansive set of experiences gives me a
> wealth of knowledge to cross reference and draw upon when I solve problems.

To something like:

> Experienced cross-functional team lead with experience managing web, IT,
> government, and aerospace engineering projects.

I'd also cut lines that are dated. Things that may have been hard in the past,
but are no longer relevant. Including a few here:

> Installed a Novel network with word processing, spreadsheet and record
> keeping capability.

I'd cut all references to projects that didn't look modern. Again, OK to have
gaps.

* Look FANTASTIC on social media with professional video movies || [http://www.yourstory2video.com/](http://www.yourstory2video.com/)

4) Seems odd that a senior PM would have under 200 contacts on LinkedIn. I get
that maybe it wasn't his focus, but I probably add 200 contacts a year...
MeetUps, mentoring, new hires, and clients... it only seems hard to put
yourself out there, until you do it. LinkedIn and GitHub are the only social
networks I use. Networking is always going to be the best way for anyone to
find a new job, having a large network helps.

5) Lastly, I feel like age discrimination is real, and rejection sucks, but
it's hard to get a sense of confidence from this guy after reading his post.
Can someone from Netflix get this guy on the new Queer Eye? Not having
confidence is going to really hurt him when it comes to applying for jobs. I
don't know how to fix this, but likely seeing a shrink and hitting up the gym
a bit would boost his self-esteem. I don't know, I've never been 64, but feel
like that's probably good advice for anyone.

Hey, David... if you're reading this, I reached out on LinkedIn. I run the
delivery team for a branch of a global agency. I interview a lot of PM
candidates. Happy to set up a mock interview and give feedback. Cheers!

------
mk926
why would he need to do job at 64?

~~~
aiyodev
To do eat and do home.

------
thisisweirdok
When I was in my upper 30s I was mistakingly included in a reply-all email
from someone who interviewed me and said I seemed kind of old for the
position.

I was ready to lose my shit on them but my wife made me wait a day before
responding when she saw how angry I was.

I was considering hiring a lawyer to sue the shit out of them for
discrimination, but at the end of the day I brushed it off with a snarky "at
least I'm experienced enough to double check who my illegal emails are going
to" and told them I was reporting it to the Equal Employment Opportunity
Commission (which I did).

This was years ago, and I've always been well employed, but I'm still a little
mad about it.

I did find out through an acquaintance that the person who mistakingly sent
that email was fired almost immediately and they were pretty worried about a
lawsuit.

The struggle is so real. It's insane.

~~~
stale2002
Here is a question for you.

What if instead of the situation that you were in, the opposite happened to a
young developers.

Ie, the employer used a euphemism to discriminate against someone because they
were too young.

Would this bother you?

Or is it only your age group that you care about being discriminated against?

TBH, young people are massively discriminated against, in all forms of jobs.
It is merely accepted, though.

When you treat people equally, the group in power may feel like they are being
discriminated against, because they no longer have an advantage.

~~~
thisisweirdok
You do realize that they didn't hire me because they preferred a young
developer... right?

~~~
stale2002
And many many many others aren't hired because they are too young.

It just bothers me that people always talk about a much less prevelant form of
discrimination.

------
myresume
I have experienced this myself. I am going on 50.

I am actually looking for work now.

And I have kept up and I am using modern tech stacks.

[http://geoffreycallaghan.com](http://geoffreycallaghan.com)

~~~
scarface74
I don’t know where you are. But with that skillset, recruiters should be
throwing jobs at you in most major American cities. I know for a fact that
recruiters in Atlanta would be salivating at the chance to placd you. As I
said before, I am in my mid 40s.

~~~
aiyodev
“He has all those skills but doesn’t have a job? Must be something wrong with
him. I know several people his age and they all have jobs.”

~~~
scarface74
It could be the places he’s applying, he’s could be blindly submitting
resumes, it could be anything. But out of all the things it could be, we don’t
know if it’s about age.

~~~
aiyodev
"blindly submitting resumes"

Please explain what this is and why it would be a problem.

~~~
scarface74
Submitting a resume online that just goes through an application tracking
system instead of using a local recruiter that has a relationship with the
hiring manager.

There is never a time that my application goes in a black hole. I always know
where I am in the process.

------
shard972
Why hire a 64 year old when you can hire a PHD straight out of india for less?

------
MrTonyD
Just for a counterpoint that I know will be attacked - Why not create plenty
of jobs? Let's say we want programming jobs for everyone, just start adding
constraints to what can be sold in the country based on whether that company
hired programmers in the country. Are there people who want to do more
woodwork? Well then start adding some limits to importing products built with
woodworking skills. It doesn't have to be "all or nothing", it can target
creating the jobs desired by the community. I know this would take a lot of
work to get right, and there would be costs, but it sure seems like it would
be worth it to create a society where everybody could do the type of work that
they desire.

------
jswizzy
I have had to work with plenty of older programmers and it's always a bad
experience. The boomer generation are not team players and they will use
office politics to sabotage anyone who they perceive as threat to them. I have
to deal a guy now who complains about ageism all day and talks about how
experience he is and how he did x great thing but I have to explain simple
programming concepts to the guy and agrees and looks down on me all.

~~~
eecsninja
Sounds like working with bad programmers.

I worked with a lot of younger programmers who were lazy and less diligent
than I expected from others at the same FAANG company. Bad experience too.

------
harlanji
Work-to-hire needs to be more prevalent. Start this guy off as a janitor so he
can work his way up. No American feels above mopping floors, in case you,
hiring manager, were unaware. Source: unemployed techie who gardens and moves
in Silicon Valley, for people who would love to hire me if they had a computer
job and is dodged by recruiters.

~~~
__float
...why should he start as a janitor when he has years of experience doing the
jobs he's apply for?

~~~
MisterOctober
Yep. Also, most companies won't hire people who are massively overqualified
for unskilled [or lesser-skilled] positions. In fact, many managers view
unused skills as a waste [e.g., in the "Lean" philosophy / cult, it's called
the '8th muda or waste' _] and are specifically wary for that reason among
others.

_ now of course, it's not always interpreted as a negative incentive to hire
certain folks due to their having skill A, but instead to use skill A if
someone has it -- but I have certainly heard it interpreted as one of the
reasons to avoid overqualified candidates].

~~~
oh_sigh
I wouldn't be surprised if part of the reasoning is there was a threat to
power that would come from an overskilled person taking a position. For
example, that overskilled person may not fall for certain lies or controlling
aspects that the manager uses on actually-unskilled labor, who presumably
don't have industry experience or are too afraid of losing their job to cause
a fuss.

