

The Pernicious Myth that You Don't Need College to Be an Entrepreneur - tokenadult
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/businessdesk/2013/09/the-pernicious-myth-that-you-d.html

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tokenizer
>""He tells the story of a high school teacher whose students confronted him
with the same question: "Why do we need to learn this?" The teacher replied,
"You don't. You need to learn to ask just one question." The piqued students
implored him to tell what that was. His answer: "Would you like fries with
that?""

This is deplorable. As someone who didn't go to college, the fact that the
author acts like they're right because of the status quo, and because Thiel's
first start-ups weren't successful is absolutely laughable.

I love how their main argument relies on the fact that the perception of the
degree is what's most important. While this may be true, this is simply a
perception, and can easily be changed. It's not a "fact".

Secondly, if Thiel's lack of success from his ventures proves anything, it's
that he needs work finding the right people to invest in. Just because a small
subset of adventurous young adults failed their first time (understandable)
doesn't mean that all young adults need the experience of college before they
can fail/succeed in their first venture.

Lastly, let's see if the author is bias. Well, they're an academic, are
adjuncts in two colleges... I find it interesting that an Academic
intellectual has a problem understanding that people can be didactic learners
and learn what they want on their own.

"Would you like fries with that?" \- Sure, I'd love to buy some fries with my
great job that I got right out of high school because I ACTUALLY worked
towards my craft in high school. I doubt you can do that with an English,
Psychology, Sociology, or even a regular Science degree. What this really
sounds like is that college is important if you want to become an engineer.
That's obvious. Most other things? Not so much.

~~~
sp332
[http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm](http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm)

Unemployment literally doubles if you forgo a college degree.

~~~
jmccree
Seriously? You could also state "Unemployment literally doubles if you're
Black or African American."
([http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat07.htm](http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat07.htm))

The way statistics on unemployment, earnings, etc by degree level are being
used is _disgraceful_. It's correlation does not imply causation at the basest
level. It's more likely the higher your social and economic background is, the
more college you can afford, and the better job you can get.

I see so many people with tons of student debt for a degree that is useless
for finding employment. Unless your profession requires a degree (laywer,
doctor...) or you can go for free via grant or wealthy parents, most people
would be better off entering the work place or starting in a trade. You can
always go back to school when you can afford it.

There are A LOT of college graduates out there asking "Would you like fries
with that?" to non-grads.

~~~
coldtea
> _Seriously? You could also state "Unemployment literally doubles if you're
> Black or African American."_

Your race is not something you can (or should) do anything about, but you can
very well try to get a college degree.

> _It 's correlation does not imply causation at the basest level. It's more
> likely the higher your social and economic background is, the more college
> you can afford, and the better job you can get._

That sounds like a direct causual link. Richer -> Degree -> Job. How does
"correlation does not imply causation" come into play at all? It's exactly
because of being rich that you can get into a better education, and it's
because of getting into a better education that you can get into a better job.

> _Unless your profession requires a degree (laywer, doctor...)_

It's not only the profession that requires a degree. A lot of employeers, nay,
most, require a degree too. Especially for higher end jobs.

------
austenallred
Interesting article, considering I dropped out of school yesterday
(literally).

The reason I dropped out isn't because I'm lazy or incompetent; I'm actually
30 credits (two semesters) away from graduation. But as I look at what my
class schedule would be, I realize that the bubble they're trying to force me
into takes me a different direction than where I really want to go. I don't
think I could handle the cognitive dissonance of that realization day after
day.

I love technology and mass media, and I want to go into Internet marketing -
I've worked in Internet marketing for five years, so I ended up in the
communications department, which was perfect. The program was great - we would
discuss how media is changing, work on being creative, study design,
understand why people do the things they do; it was great. But then, after my
2nd year, it got specific to make sure we could get a job at an advertising
agency - to make sure we stay the 2nd best school in the nation for
advertising.

And now I look at my class schedule of the classes I _have to take_ to
graduate. Advanced account management? A forced internship (when I've been
working in Internet marketing for five years)? Writing 150? (I tested out of
that with two different AP tests and my ACT score, but it's required in the
Commms program no matter what.) What college wants me to do to ensure I get a
job just isn't relevant enough to what I want to learn or where I want to end
up. Not to mention the fact that the company I'm a co-founder of has investors
begging me to drop out of school and go full-time... it's just not a good fit.
It just doesn't make sense.

I'm designing my own curriculum around the things that I want to learn. It's
difficult to do and will be hard to force myself to do those things, but at
least it's relevant to where I want to go.

~~~
gte910h
One year of shit you have to do now will save you a decade of shit you have to
do later.

It is entirely worth it to finish those 30 hours.

~~~
jronkone
30 credits doesn't equal 30 hours as far as I know. But still, I think GP
should just suck it up and finish his degree, he has only a very limited
amount of time to lose by doing so, and possibly much to gain from having a
degree. In other words, he has limited downside and almost unlimited upside.

~~~
caw
In the US, credits are typically by "Credit hours", which I believe is in
reference to how much instruction time you have per week. A 3 credit hour
class may meet 3x a week for 1 hour, or 2x a week for 1.5hr. So saying 30
credits is the same as saying 30 credit hours, which is 30 "hours" of course
work. Wall clock time is higher because you have homework and other stuff, and
of course a 3 hour class goes on for at least 12 weeks of instruction.

~~~
gte910h
At my alma mater, Georgia Tech, they assumed 2-3 out of class hours for each
in class hour. So that's 2 terms of 45 hour weeks basically

------
dnautics
"He paid children $100,000 not to complete their college educations."

No. He paid "children" $100,000 to put off their college educations for two
years, and be open-minded about not ever going back. If I recall correctly,
some of the thiel fellows had already finished college.

------
dkokelley
What in this article demonstrates that you do or don't need a college
education to be an entrepreneur (presumably a successful one)? The evidence as
provided seems to be, "Most of Peter Thiel's college-abstainers are failing,
and the few successes shouldn't really count." I feel like a lot more work
needs to be put into this article before it's fit to be published.

What is the central point of this post? From what I could tell, it's roughly a
mix of:

\- Kids should stay in college

\- Peter Thiel is doing a disservice to the college-aged

\- Entrepreneurs who go to college are more successful

\- Peter Thiel's program isn't as successful at TechStars (because he
exclusively selects college abstainers)

\- College dropouts earn less (regardless of career choice) than degree
holders

Pick one, and then find data that is relevant. Even better, pick a central
point and turn it in to a hypothesis. Gather data and test the hypothesis.
Write an article about the findings.

I really expect better from PBS.

~~~
randomdata
What is considered a Peter Thiel failure even?

Someone coming into a program like HN and not realizing net profits towards
millions of dollars would be considered a failure in that circle, but even a
profit of $50,000 per year would be enough to see the participants earning
more than the average college graduate.

------
saalweachter
Random thought of the day:

I don't see any mention in this article of "social networks". Even if an
entrepreneur can be smart and driven, can learn a wide array of technical
skills on his own, if he is literally on his own he is going to be at a
serious disadvantage.

Some people acquire a network of cofounders, lawyers, and financiers through
their parents' social networks, and some people can acquire them online or off
with no help, but maybe, maybe if you're a smart, driven individual with no
pre-existing social network, it might be worthwhile to go to college to meet
that special someone you could settle down and start a company with?

~~~
nwhitehead
Colleges and universities are great places to do projects with people and
build social networks. Doesn't require paying tuition!

------
benjohnson
Sure...perhaps pulling kids out of top tier schools may not necessarily be
ideal.

But for the rest of us rabble, I'm sure glad I'm not struggling under $100,000
in debt.

Perhaps it's by design - America needs a docile workforce, and nothing gets
you working diligently in a marginal job quite like crushing debt.

~~~
integraton
There are plenty of ways to go to top tier schools without taking on debt. A
creative combination of scholarships, transfers, income, and employer benefits
can take care of everything.

Among the failures of the system is the excessive emphasis on the traditional
four year path, as well as the lack of clear information about the
alternatives.

------
mindcrime
A(nother) problem with this discussion, is that Wadhwa and others seem to
create a dichotomy where you either:

1\. Graduate from a University with a B.S

or

2\. Are an uneducated bum with no career prospects.

But there's a huge continuum between those poles. What about people with
Associate degrees? Or people who start their Bachelors program, _almost_
finish, and then drop out? Or people who start their Bachelors program, after
having earned one Associate degree, then drop out, then go on to earn 2 more
Associate degrees? (Yeah, that one happens, that was my story).

Of course, while I disagree with Wadhwa on a number of things, I don't
entirely disagree with his notion that finishing school is important for most
people, in most situations. But I think you have to be willing to accept that
it's not the right path for everybody, in every situation.

I dropped out while still a junior, and my career has worked out pretty well.
But I also somehow collected 3 Associate degrees over the years as well, and I
went into a field (software development) that is known for being less focused
on "paper credentials". So my point certainly isn't that everybody should do
what I did, but just to say that these things are always judgment calls and
that some people are well served by dropping out.

As for the entrepreneurship part... I've founded a startup, but it's
undetermined as of yet if we'll be one of the successes or not. But I think
it's interesting that some people[1] are mentioning us in the same breath as
companies like Asana now, even though they were started by Facebook alums and
people from Google and Microsoft, while we were founded by a college dropout
with no connections or money to speak of. We may not succeed, but we've at
least managed to fight out way into the game to some extent.

[1]:
[http://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2013/09/04/companies...](http://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2013/09/04/companies-
linkedin-should-buy.html)

------
dreamdu5t
No, the pernicious myth is that college is necessarily worth the money. It's
on par with the myth that home ownership is necessarily A Good Thing (tm) and
an "investment."

~~~
tokenizer
Yup, add to the fact that the author is an academic (Adjunct/Research
Associate/Vice President). No bias there I assume...

------
jbcurtin2
The title of the article is skewing everything. He's making an observation on
the environments individuals are in. The gist, surround yourself with
competent people or goto an institution that will help you find people to do
this. This is what college is. A place to find like minded people.

Ignore the rest.

------
dgabriel
"Children"? Who refers to 18-22 year old men and women as children? The
terminally condescending?

------
ufmace
Interesting story. In these sorts of discussions, people always bring up,
Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerburg, etc. I don't know the details about
most of them, but I do remember reading that Bill Gates' parents' money and
position allowed him to spend a tremendous amount of time programming
computers in an era when this was incredibly rare and expensive.

Perhaps college was pointless for him, but that's in large part because of his
drive and access to resources that few people have. Is it pointless for you,
or some other person? Well, have you spent most of high school aggressively
pursuing every opportunity you could find to learn some sort of craft or
business?

------
andrewflnr
Nothing in this article proves anything about whether you need to go to
college. If anything, it indicates that Peter Thiel may have picked the wrong
kids for his experiment.

~~~
lmickh
While the article certainly lacks hard proof, the "he didn't pick the right
kids" argument is even worse. The ratio of successful college grads to non-
grads may not show causality, but at least it is some sort of metric. Until
someone can quantify "the right kids", it beats the alternative.

------
ianstallings
And if you have entrepreneurship in your blood you'll probably ignore this.
Because they don't teach how to be "insanely driven" at school. If you have
the opportunity to go to college I say go for it, finish and get your degree.
But those that don't have the means or opportunity are in no way disqualified
from starting a successful business.

I think the takeaway from this shouldn't be that college is necessary, but
that you shouldn't drop out just to start a business. But again, you probably
won't listen to that either.

My family taught me how to start and run a business long before college
entered my mind. It's in my blood. I've started them before, one worked and
two others did not. I've helped others start their own and some were
successful, others not. And I will start another one eventually. When I choose
to do something nothing in the world will stop me. Because that's what I think
it takes.

~~~
coldtea
> _Because they don 't teach how to be "insanely driven" at school._

No. But, then again, there are thousands of wrecks that were "insanely driven"
and got nowhere.

Besides being "insanely driven" it's not a bad idea to also actually learn how
to drive.

~~~
clavalle
I don't know a single person that I would call driven (much less insanely
driven) that has been a failure.

I know some very driven people that I don't consider terribly bright who I
thought for sure would be failures who have ended up owning and running
successful businesses.

On the other hand, I know quite a few master degree level people and above who
would be homeless if not for the generosity of others. It seems like more and
more people are substituting schooling for real work.

~~~
ianstallings
My last startup was founded by an out of work police officer. He had the drive
to make it happen and in turn investors saw that in him and invested. Just to
get the meeting with the first investor he actually remortgaged his house just
so he could invest in something the guy he was targeting was trying to pitch.
So he gets the meeting and it leads to a great relationship and the investor
became an angel, pouring millions in. He then built pretty much every piece of
the puzzle himself and in turn brought me on board to quite an adventure. It
started at his beach house and it's now going strong at Penn Plaza, Manhattan
with about ~40 people. The guy just had it in him, some people do. And the
business is still going strong.

I know it's anecdotal, but I think there is something there.

------
fleitz
Entreprenuer does not mean running a venture funded startup in hopes of
editing for $1bn plus.

------
vinceguidry
This reads more like a defensive rant than a legitimate argument. Nothing
insightful here.

------
opendais
We really need our academics to focus on teaching people [before they get out
of highschool] useful skills [critical thinking, for instance] instead of
picking fights with people over a given ideology [e.g. Thiel who holds a
belief/theory he is trying to prove which can only be proven once he has a
preponderance of evidence/success on his side].

For instance, how to calculate the ROI of any purchase they make whether that
is a college degree, a stock, or a house.

College makes sense for many people in many fields. A bunch of people get
suckered into degrees from for-profit schools that aren't worth their price
because they read articles like these and think 'college == superior' without
thinking critically about the problem.

