
The NetHack dev team is happy to announce the release of NetHack 3.6.1 - hapnin
https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/XhcIrLlNzpA
======
pmoriarty
Nethack is the game I've played more than any other.. having played it
literally for decades and decades. Yet I switched to Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup
about 5 or 6 years ago, and really haven't gone back except to try Nethack
again every now and then only to feel it too painful and slow to continue
playing.

I've been spoiled by Crawl's autoexplore, its richness of gods and god-granted
powers, its colors (in text mode, not tiles), and many other new features and
innovations. That said, Nethack is still the deeper game in so many ways.
Crawl's "don't do it like Nethack" approach has prevented it from taking all
sorts of great ideas from Nethack and making Crawl in to a richer game --
things like making more advanced use of pets (like training them to steal from
shops), more things to do in shops, use of altars beyond merely converting to
a god, use of potions beyond merely drinking them, more uses for item
inscriptions, all the ways to combine items, the list goes on and on.

All this makes Crawl seem like the shallower game, though it's still plenty of
fun, and I still play it to the exclusion of most any other roguelike for now.
There's a lot of room for improvement, though. I just wish they'd take more of
the best parts of Nethack and make Crawl even more fun.

~~~
simias
My main problem with nethack is the over-reliance on "spoilers" if you don't
want to figure out every (sometimes rather non-obvious) mechanics in the game
through trial-and-error. It's really hard to get into nethack if you're not
willing to spoiler yourself, and once you start reading spoilers it's hard to
know when to stop if you don't want to spoil the fun. On top of that trial-
and-error in a game with perma-death can quickly become discouraging as you
die stupidly because you didn't know that you couldn't levitate above a sink
for some reason.

Dungeon Crawl on the other hand is a lot friendlier, in general the mechanics
are well explained and you know what to expect and how things work. Contrast
for instance the curse mechanic between nethack[1] and DCSS[2]. Nethack is
obviously a lot more intricate but good luck figuring out all of that on your
own, and good luck finishing the game if you haven't figured out most of that.

[1]
[http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Cursed](http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Cursed)

[2] [http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Cursed](http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Cursed)

~~~
muzani
Games like Nethack and ADOM were what I'd call wiki games. The only way you
can really enjoy and win them is by reading documentation.

------
Alex3917
Apparently the patch for the bug I reported in 2004 (C343-20) didn't make it
into this version, despite being fixed four years ago. The glacial timescales
are kind of endearing at this point.

~~~
ggm
Your pull request crumbles into dust...

~~~
Alex3917
Not my PR!

The issue is that if you die by having a cursed ball and chain fall onto your
head while descending a staircase, the screen doesn't transition to the lower
level so it's not clear on which level the bones file would be generated. (Per
emails from the dev team, it does get correctly generated on the lower level.)
Apparently fixing this issue somehow required rewriting huge portions of the
graphics engine, which probably explains the snarky comment next to the bug in
the issue tracker. :-)

~~~
danShumway
:) To be fair, if I was writing any program and someone came to me with a bug
like that, my first thought would be "#!@? I don't want to deal with this."

------
jammi
Personally, since I'm less interested in MS-DOS modes and fixed-length 8bit
charset modes, I switched to the redesigned NetHack 4, which works fine with
modern UTF-8 terminals.

NetHack 4 is geared towards progression of the game and staying up to date
with the changing world rather than mothballing the old game. It's a separate
project from NetHack 3.x, with different goals and development teams.

[http://nethack4.org](http://nethack4.org)

~~~
chungy
The continued existence of an MS-DOS port doesn't detract from versions for
current operating systems in the slightest... Vim and Emacs even maintain
current ports for MS-DOS and I doubt anyone is going to give them up just
because a DOS port exists.

NetHack 4 is a radical shift for the game, and many of its ideas were
incorporated into NetHack 3.6 (the upstream project), I think even its
developer was placed onto the devteam for upstream NetHack while maintaining
the fork simultaneously. It's a cool project, but NetHack 3.x is the
conservative one, both in gameplay and in maintaining ports to operating
systems of yesteryear (they clearly aren't against removing them, but they
support them when there is at least one person to maintain it).

~~~
jwilk
Vim dropped MS-DOS support in 2016:

[https://github.com/vim/vim/commit/48e330aff911be1c798c88a973...](https://github.com/vim/vim/commit/48e330aff911be1c798c88a973af6437a8141fce)

~~~
nvr219
snap

------
darkkindness
The most game-changing additions, IMO:

> "Elbereth" now erodes based on attacks by the player, not monsters scared

> Allow taming monkeys and apes with bananas

> Peacefuls may react when you attack other peacefuls

Also, I'm happy about these QoL changes:

> New status line conditions Stone Strngl Deaf Lev Fly Ride

> Give feedback just before timed levitation runs out

~~~
roghummal
>"Elbereth" must now be the only engraved text on a square to function

So... "elberethelberethelberethelbereth" won't work anymore, either.

~~~
Spoom
That is a potentially big change if you like to use Elbereth to protect your
stack. Now you basically have to burn it.

~~~
djur
As of Nethack 3.6.0 Elbereth no longer works on a square that you're not
standing on, so it can't be used to guard a stash. Now you need to use a
scroll of scare monster for that purpose.

------
larkeith
Is this available on any websites that don't require Javascript to view?

(Seriously folks, there's no reason a static site like this should need JS
enabled to read, except for tracking purposes.)

~~~
mherdeg
You shouldn't even need a web browser to view this announcement -- it was
posted on 27 April 2018 to rec.games.roguelike.nethack. Assuming you already
have a newsreader set up, you can just go ahead and read that message.

~~~
cosarara
But you need to pay for usenet to use a newsreader, right?

~~~
mherdeg
I just went ahead and logged in to a machine where I had slrn installed, then
signed up for an account with [http://www.eternal-
september.org/](http://www.eternal-september.org/) and configured my .slrnrc
with

    
    
       set force_authentication 1
       nnrpaccess news.eternal-september.org [user] [password]
    

then ran something like

    
    
      slrn --nntp -h news.eternal-september.org --create
    

and

    
    
      L*nethack
    

to select rec.games.roguelike.nethack

then do

    
    
      s "happy to ann"
    

to do a subject search going forward, then read the message.

Page down and up with space & b, etc.

It's been a little while since I used a newsreader and I didn't use to slrn,
so took a few minutes to get used to.

------
morsch
For a historic perspective, see the CRPG Addicts posts:

\- Hack (1984)
[http://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/2015/04/game-186-hack-1984.ht...](http://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/2015/04/game-186-hack-1984.html)

\- NetHack 2.3e (1987)
[http://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/2011/01/game-38-nethack-1987....](http://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/2011/01/game-38-nethack-1987.html)

\- NetHack 3.0 (1989)
[http://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/2012/06/game-71-nethack-30.ht...](http://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/2012/06/game-71-nethack-30.html)

------
xor1
I'd like to plug DCSS here:

[https://crawl.develz.org/](https://crawl.develz.org/)

I could never get into any other roguelikes, but I LOVE Dungeon Crawl Stone
Soup. I easily have over 100 hours in it, and just recently finished an actual
game for the first time (15 runes, Gargoyle Hunter).

~~~
Cursuviam
I find DCSS's development goals very interesting in contrast to Nethack. While
Nethack is widely famed for "the dev's think of everything", DCSS has been on
a streak of streamlining mechanics, such as the latest release collapsing all
food items to rations instead of the pizza, royal jelly, and others. Though
rip wand of healing.

~~~
digi_owl
Ugh, that kind of development approach gets my skin crawling for some reason.

~~~
bhickey
Hey, I was a crawl dev from 2009 until whenever I pushed my last commit. Your
reaction suggests that you're either unfamiliar with or misunderstand crawl's
development philosophy.

Crawl development strives to eliminate grinding and eliminate tedium. Players
should never be rewarded for performing repetitive actions. Every choice
should be meaningful. This has been the case since the game's revival in 2006
and goes back to the introduction of the food clock in Rogue. A few years back
I asked Ken Arnold about the food clock. He introduced it because a timer is a
great way of making stupid, time consuming strategies useless. Crawl follows
in this tradition.

We removed the requirement that you have a bladed weapon to butcher corpses.
Why? Because it's a game and not a murder-hobo simulator. If you need a fix
for mindless simulationism you might enjoy Dwarf Fortress, the premier dwarf
terrarium.

~~~
xor1
Just wanna say thanks for your contributions. Are there any other similar
games (proper roguelikes or not) you've found as enjoyable as DCSS?

~~~
bhickey
My role was a minor one. The last thing I pushed was a Wang tile layout system
that makes the Crypt more visually interesting.

> Are there any other similar games (proper roguelikes or not) you've found as
> enjoyable as DCSS?

Brogue is the finest Roguelike ever made. By happenstance, pender was my
neighbor back when I lived in the valley.

------
PaulHoule
Has anyone won this game honestly? I've patched the C code and only got so
far. I tried savefile hacking and that didn't get me to the end. I was only
able to win by compiling a version with debug symbols and playing inside the
debugger. (eg. find the flag for the Wizard of Yendor's invisibility status
and clear it.)

~~~
__s
Yes, in fact NetHack is supposed to be a more forgiving roguelike. See
[http://nethack4.org/blog/strategy-
headroom.html](http://nethack4.org/blog/strategy-headroom.html)

~~~
djur
It might have been 20 years ago, or even 10, but today there are a lot of
popular roguelikes which are still challenging but have fewer unavoidable
deaths and less reliance on spoilers. Dungeon Crawl is a good example, but
there are a lot of roguelikes even gentler than that.

~~~
dllthomas
The linked post is from 2014, and specifically mentions DCSS being "lower
headroom". I expect a significant issue here is different use of "forgiving";
IIUC proponents of DCSS would tend to stress YASDs as being "unforgiving", but
the focus of the linked article is more on flexibility in play style -
forgiving somewhat-less-than-optimal play, forgiving outright recklessness,
and occasionally killing you regardless of your behavior are all three
somewhat different things.

------
nradov
Has anyone programmed an AI to win Nethack? It seems like an obvious thing to
try.

~~~
schoen
Yes!

[https://github.com/krajj7/BotHack](https://github.com/krajj7/BotHack)

[https://www.reddit.com/r/nethack/comments/2tluxv/yaap_fullau...](https://www.reddit.com/r/nethack/comments/2tluxv/yaap_fullauto_bot_ascension_bothack/)

Edit: I remember looking at BotHack at the time and being surprised at how
extensively and elaborately hard-coded the strategy and evaluations were. This
is definitely _not_ machine learning!

Edit 2: HN discussion at the time:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8990869](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8990869)

~~~
Twirrim
I found the source code to be absolutely fascinating, beautifully written,
easy to parse and understand why and how various actions will happen.

Here's an example method:
[https://github.com/krajj7/BotHack/blob/master/src/bothack/be...](https://github.com/krajj7/BotHack/blob/master/src/bothack/behaviors.clj#L43)

    
    
        (defn- read-book [game]
          {:pre [(have game book #{:noncursed})]}
          (if-not (invocation-complete? game)
            (if-let [[slot _] (have game "Book of the Dead")]
              (with-reason "reading the book"
                (->Read slot)))))

------
tomcooks
Been playing NH for a long time, glad that it's still being worked on,
following the original philosophy.

If you find NetHack a bit too intense for you, and are looking for a more
casual approach, give Pixel Dungeon on Android a try.

It's not only fun, but also free software.

~~~
Nuzzerino
Fun Fact: the original Deus Ex, which takes place in the 2050s, has an Easter
Egg. If you hack into a certain computer in the game, there is an email with
NetHack release notes (version in the double digits, it being the year 2050).

Being 13 at the time, that was my first time hearing about NetHack, and I
decided to try it eventually.

------
dpeck
Thoughtful of them to time the release with a full moon.

------
lottin
I am big fan of this game, but I wish it had a more appealing user interface -
I mean appealing to the general public. Whenever I show nethack to a friend,
they're put off by it, and it's a shame because nethack really is a great game
and it should be better known outside geek circles.

~~~
akavel
Have you tried
[https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Vulture](https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Vulture) ?

------
Scuds
looking at some of the the bugs that have been worked on over the past:

[https://www.nethack.org/v330/spoiler.html](https://www.nethack.org/v330/spoiler.html)

I'm wondering if these types of categorical errors like 'BUGFIX: kicking
cockatrice meat while barefoot now stones you' can be eliminated by writing in
a language with a more advanced type system that'll check for these things at
compile time instead of relying on years of hard labor and the stone knives
and bearskins of C.

I'm looking at the logic around eating and it's craaaaazy
[https://github.com/NetHack/NetHack/blob/NetHack-3.6.0/src/ea...](https://github.com/NetHack/NetHack/blob/NetHack-3.6.0/src/eat.c)

Ultimately I'm asking if even though "The Dev Team Thinks of Everything" to
not have to rely on that when designing a game.

------
dogecoinbase
Haven't been able to ascend a tourist since the post 3.4 Elbereth nerfings...
but doesn't mean it's not possible. I'll keep trying.

~~~
asztal
Ascended my first tourist yesterday! It's actually a great class to play after
the quest. You just have to be very careful (and perhaps lucky) in the early
game.

------
endemic
Anyone have recommended resources for learning how to play?

~~~
r3n
Official guidebook for basic knowledge
[http://www.nethack.org/v361/Guidebook.html](http://www.nethack.org/v361/Guidebook.html)

For more advanced mechanics & spoiler
[http://www.steelypips.org/nethack/](http://www.steelypips.org/nethack/)

There is also a NetHack wiki
[https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Main_Page](https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Main_Page)

~~~
r3n
Public servers like NAO is also a good place to learn NetHack.
[https://www.alt.org/nethack/](https://www.alt.org/nethack/)

You can download session files from players and play it on your machine, their
configs are also available on the website.

------
dcbadacd
Is there a multiplayer+easy mode of the game? I'd really like to play it like
D&D, with a party.

~~~
imglorp
No. At first glance, it seems easy, just make other players appear like
monsters and add a chat feature. But if you consider more details, you arrive
at their FAQ answer:

> We think you can't do that in a playable way without compromising the basic
> idea of being able to think as long as you want about what you're doing, but
> many people have made many different suggestions as to the one obvious way
> to handle things. If you still like the idea, you can try Crossfire, a
> multiplayer roguelike for UNIX/X11. Other games to check out are MAngband
> and Diablo

See
[http://www.nethack.org/common/info.html](http://www.nethack.org/common/info.html)

~~~
dcbadacd
I disagree with the reason for not implementing it, adopting something like
"simultaneous turns" mode from Civilization series could provide that time to
think for everyone. But I'll check out Crossfire.

~~~
chongli
I don't think Civ's simultaneous turns would work for NetHack. In Civ, you
make quite a few actions on a single turn (especially in the late game). In
NetHack you are always taking a single action at a time, though with some
actions taking no time at all (viewing your inventory, naming and calling
objects, naming monsters, applying a stethoscope for the first time that turn,
etc) and other actions taking multiple turns (running, travel command, moving
while slow).

Essentially, NetHack has a different concept of turns than Civ. NetHack uses
turns as a discrete time resource whereas Civ uses the more conventional
boardgame style rotation. You could try to convert NetHack into the Civ model
by giving the player a number of action points based on their speed but this
would allow fast players to move around a corner, take an action, and retreat
without the enemy getting a chance to notice them. This would fundamentally
alter the balance of the game.

------
kazinator
I remember compiling NetHack back in 1993 or so for x86. The binary was well
over 900 kilobytes of machine code (according to the size utility). I was
like, "Gack! That's sized like some bloated Unix kernel!".

------
JKCalhoun
I read the headline with excitement and thought, "Oh, God, is it the late 80's
again and all of this was a dream? Let me get on USENET and confirm...."

~~~
earenndil
But...this is a link _to_ a usenet post.

------
captn3m0
Is there a version of nethack that uses emojis yet?

~~~
aw3c2
That would put Windows users at an advantage ;)
[https://emojipedia.org/pistol/](https://emojipedia.org/pistol/)

