

Ask YC: I enjoy my cage - klein_waffle

I work for a large company in decline. I see all my smart colleagues leaving for better opportunities, and there are many storm clouds on the horizon for the company. I have all kinds of ideas for startups and I'm itching to try them.<p>But my team is currently kicking at least reasonable amounts of ass, and is well-supported by management. While there are some alarmingly dumb ideas imposed on us from above, for the most part I am getting to implement my ideas. I have a pretty great salary. I believe we're helping ordinary people. I would be really annoyed if I had to leave it now, because I think we're maybe a year away from having a really great solution in our market.<p>Now what?
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jcl
I suppose one way to end up working at a small company is to start by working
at a large company that is shrinking. :)

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rglullis
Let me see...

\- You like your work.

\- You are making good money.

\- You like your co-workers.

If I were in your position, I'd get part of the money you are making in the
day job and use to invest in the ideas you're thinking about. You could easily
hire someone (or could even be a co-founder) to work full-time on these ideas
and keep that as a side business.

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optimal
Let your employer fund your ideas through your paycheck--they don't own your
nights and weekends.

I find the hardest challenge when I start a part-time project is staying
motivated at the day job. If you're happy there and can achieve this balance
then you have the benefit of both worlds.

~~~
marcus
The truth is a bit more complicated than that, ownership of IP generated while
working for another company can be a very tricky issue, it depends on your
local laws, your employment contract and so on... consult a lawyer.

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antiismist
IAAL, and I second this. Even if you do everything right and would win in the
courtroom, megacorp can make it into a Pyhrric victory by consuming vast
amounts of time and money (if you have the resources to get that far, even).

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pchristensen
Wow, the rarely seen twin of IANAL, IAAL. Remind me to pay more attention to
everything antiismist says now!

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aston
Normally, IAAL is accompanied by a disclaimer like "I am not your lawyer. This
post does not constitute legal advice. PLZ don't sue me."

~~~
antiismist
;) My advice was to get advice. I think I am on safe ground there even though
I don't have a disclaimer.

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ardit33
It all depends on the state you are living. California is pretty good for
protecting employees, not recognizing non-compete clauses, etc....

1\. If you are working on your own time, and NOT using company equipment. 2\.
The idea is original, and did NOT came from copying something from the
company. 3\. The idea is not a direct competitor of what your company is
doing.

You can be pretty safe. It will be hard for your company to claim anything on
your work.

~~~
antiismist
The challenge is to not draw the attention of your employer, even if you are
"safe". Imagine for a moment that you work for Oracle, but have a side project
that, legally, belongs to you.

What would happen if Oracle decided that it wanted the company? Does any
startup have the resources to duke it out with Oracle for the years it will
take to resolve the issue? Would any investor put money into a company that
had a dispute with Oracle, even if Oracle's claim was without much merit?

\--

read this for what it is like to go head-to-head with a megacorp (about the
inventor of Intermittent Windshield Wipers):

<http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/02/25/005398.html>

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mechanical_fish
_I would be really annoyed if I had to leave it now, because I think we're
maybe a year away from having a really great solution in our market._

Your answer is sitting there in your words. Keep your day job for a year or a
year and a half. Then ask yourself the question again.

If you need a project, focus on cutting your expenses. Learn to budget. Learn
to cook. Pay off the credit cards. Move to a less expensive apartment. Every
dollar you cut from the budget is not just a dollar you get to save for when
you're self-employed, but a dollar that you _won't be spending_ when you're
self-employed, because you won't be in the habit of spending it.

If "storm clouds are on the horizon" then there's a chance you'll get laid off
in the next year. Then you can collect unemployment while you're looking for a
day job that doesn't restrict your extracurricular activities. If you quit
now, you'd have to do that anyway, without the benefit of the insurance.

I would listen to the lawyers and not-a-lawyers in this thread: Don't do
startup work while you're still employed at the company.

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Prrometheus
It sounds like you have capable colleagues who are currently well-paid. That
is fertile ground for finding co-founders to implement ideas without assinine
obstacles.

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sanj
Life moves in cycles that are at different frequencies. When they all end up
on a peak or trough at the same time, it is trying to tell you something.
Listen, and then move, based on your own interpretation of what you want to
hear.

In this case, it sounds like you have a project you want to get done. Get it
done. Then go on to something new. If you have a PHB kill the project, or
otherwise remove your delight in it, use that as the catalyst to move on.

Or, if you wake up one morning realizing that you _have_ to do that startup
_right now_ then do it.

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skmurphy
Save your money and cut your personal burn rate. This takes maximum advantage
of your "great salary" in the best way possible. If you are working on a good
team in a "pocket of excellence" in a decaying organization either your team
will help to revitalize and reverse the situation or you will be overwhelmed
by the slow failure of the larger organization. Have a plan now for how you
are going to exploit your success (whether in follow on projects with the same
team at the firm or in doing something new) and a risk mitigation plan for how
you will judge that the project is not going to succeed (or be overwhelmed by
the decline of the company). If smart colleagues are leaving your team for
better opportunities then it's unlikely the team will succeed. There is a lot
of value in seeing a project through to launch (and volume) but you have to be
careful to avoid the "monkey trap" of a good salary and the natural inertia of
continuing to work on what you've been doing.

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bayareaguy
Computer Associates screwed up so badly in its acquisition of ASK/Ingres that
all the key employees left[1]. They threw an ad-hoc party in the parking lot
to cheer on everyone who split.

The Perforce[2] founders were among them.

Your situation sounds a little like theirs - they were reasonably happy. But
when CA handed them the perfect opportunity, they used the money from their
severence package to jumpstart the "p3" product. p3 was renamed Perforce/p4
when they discovered p3 was already trademarked.

[1] - [http://www.cbronline.com/article_cg.asp?guid=A29F1ABE-
CF37-4...](http://www.cbronline.com/article_cg.asp?guid=A29F1ABE-
CF37-4A54-A992-D0D87C8E5E8B)

[2] - <http://www.perforce.com/perforce/corp.html>

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edw519
Make a choice. Any of your ideas started with them are no longer yours.

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apgwoz
That's only true if your terms of employment are written with a clause like
that. Even if it is, it's possible to become the owner of ideas formed while
employed. Woz, for instance, went to HP and said, "I've been working on a
computer and would like to start selling it." HP didn't care about it and gave
him free reign.

Other companies and organizations only care about the work you do while on the
job (9-5 or whatever) and theoretically have no legal ground to claim
ownership on outside projects provided you never do work on those projects
while "on the job." Obviously the word "work" in this context could have many
different meanings... (I am not a lawyer)

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edw519
"That's only true if your terms of employment are written with a clause like
that."

For many potential investors, that won't be enough. They won't touch you
without ironclad assurance of clear ownership of IP.

I stand by my original comment. It doesn't matter who's right or wrong. Can
you really afford spending any time in your first 2 years on legal matters
regarding IP ownership? Believe me, there are people out there that will do
ANYTHING to steal from you. Why tempt them?

~~~
apgwoz
Point taken.

