
Athens, Sparta and Rome: The Ancient Election - diodorus
http://www.the-tls.co.uk/articles/public/athens-sparta-rome-ancient-election/
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simonsarris
I'm surprised that there's no mention of sortition, the electing of people by
random lottery. Lots of people (including Aristotle and many Athenians)
thought that true democracy was this kind of election by random lot, not by
voting. Voting is just begging for corruption. Most Athenian magistrates and
juries were picked by sortition.

Aristotle:

> Democracy arose from the idea that those who are equal in any respect are
> equal absolutely. All are alike free, therefore they claim that all are free
> absolutely... The next is when the democrats, on the grounds that they are
> all equal, claim equal participation in everything.

> It is accepted as democratic when public offices are allocated by lot; and
> as oligarchic when they are filled by election.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition)

~~~
gumby
I think we've all now seen what it looks like when someone who is unqualified
for the job and doesn't want the job is given it.

In fact hereditary offices are a form of sortition, and they have proven not
to be a particularly good system.

(I've never been a fan of Aristotle anyway)

~~~
coldtea
> _I think we 've all now seen what it looks like when someone who is
> unqualified for the job and doesn't want the job is given it._

We all also seen what it looks when people qualified AND wanting the job were
given it -- we have been seeing that for centuries and it's not pleasant
either.

> _In fact hereditary offices are a form of sortition, and they have proven
> not to be a particularly good system._

No, they are not. Sortition must be random in background and circumstances
among the represented people. Hereditary office is the least random way of
distributing power. Even democratic elections bring more randomness to the
pool.

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stygiansonic
For reference, the author, Mary Beard, is a renowned classicist with many
interesting historical shows produced by the BBC:
[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GYjnRAFFy4g](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GYjnRAFFy4g)

~~~
microtherion
She also wrote some quite accessible books: [https://www.amazon.com/SPQR-
History-Ancient-Mary-Beard-ebook...](https://www.amazon.com/SPQR-History-
Ancient-Mary-Beard-
ebook/dp/B0108U7IHO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1497055074&sr=8-1&keywords=mary+beard)

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abecedarius
"Info tech of ancient democracy":
[http://www.alamut.com/subj/artiface/deadMedia/agoraMuseum.ht...](http://www.alamut.com/subj/artiface/deadMedia/agoraMuseum.html)

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Torwald
>in Sparta they did it by shouting (loudest won — which the Athenians thought
very weird)

I don't know why the Athenians thought this to be weird, I guess they had
their reasons. But I can think of one benefit of the Spartanian way.

If you raise hands, you can quickly change when you see what others are doing.
When you shout, you have to inhale as much as you can to shout as loud as you
can. You first have to make up your mind, before you can hear others.

~~~
tpeo
Maybe they "thought" it was "weird" retroactively after the Peloponnesian War.
Athens was mishandled pretty badly after it's defeat by the pro-Spartan
government of the Thirty Tyrants. That on top of being at war with Sparta for
more than twenty years would have made them pretty averse to anything Spartan.

~~~
mmanfrin
Athens was mishandled pretty badly prior to the defeat as well, but that one
is on them. Ostracizing the lead architect of an invasion right before the
invasion is not a smart move when you've got an adversary willing to hire him
to plan the defense.

~~~
eveningcoffee
Another slightly similar situation was the loss of Constantinople
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orban](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orban)

~~~
Rotten194
Constantinople was already doomed to fall before 1453. The 4th crusade
hollowed out the city, and even after being retaken it was never the same --
by 1453, it was an island in a sea of Ottoman territory.

