
Lilli, the German Adult-Themed Cartoon Character Who Became the Barbie Doll - apo
http://www.messynessychic.com/2016/01/29/meet-lilli-the-high-end-german-call-girl-who-became-americas-iconic-barbie-doll/
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sandworm101
In defence of Barbie, that waist is at least partially utilitarian. It's there
to hold the cloths on. Dresses would fall off a more human figure as soon as
the kid turned it upside down. It's an answer to the interesting design
challenge of trying to scale clothing down to doll proportions without
resorting to paper-thin microcloth.

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Alex3917
Also, the argument that Barbie isn't realistic doesn't make much sense. We
exaggerate almost everything for kids to make it easier for them to
understand. E.g. moms speak to their kids in what academics call 'motherese',
to make it easier for them to pick up on the syllables. Kids get dressed in
gaudy colors that would look ridiculous on adults. And they get fed foods with
super exaggerated flavor profiles, e.g. ketchup. All of this is because
children's senses are still developing.

So I don't see why it's surprising that popular children's toys would
represent sort of the platonic ideal of the human form. In reality most
people's calves and hips do flare out to some extent, so it makes sense that
those sorts of features would be accentuated when reduced to toy form.

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gnaritas
Agree on your points about exaggerated stuff for kids, but...

> And they get fed foods with super exaggerated flavor profiles, e.g. ketchup

What? Since when is ketchup a kids food? That's a pretty widely popular
condiment among all ages.

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jessaustin
Most people whose eating habits I've observed over a long period (i.e. my
family) use it much less as adults than they did as children. When I was young
I dutifully glopped it onto all the traditional foods. Now it seems kind of
gross: cloying sweetness with a hint of tomato sauce, and it kind of smells
like cough syrup. Sweet is fine, and tomato sauce is fine, in the right dish.
Neither of those flavors are appealing straight out of a medicine bottle. All
the kids I know consume mass quantities, but most adults have more
sophisticated taste.

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gnaritas
Kids use it more sure, but most adults still eat ketchup, just on certain
dishes like fries for example. That children over do something doesn't make it
a child's food.

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laverick
"Call Girl" appears to be a complete fabrication. Gold digger? Sure. Sex
worker? Hardly. None of the cartoons indicate that Lilli is a prostitute. Even
the Wikipedia page says she's a secretary.

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dang
Ok, we replaced "High-end German Call Girl" with "German cartoon character",
which seems factual enough. If anyone can suggest a better (i.e. more accurate
and neutral) title, we can change it again.

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reitzensteinm
I'd call it a "German adult themed cartoon character" or similar.

The story used to be notable because it's a bit bizarre that a popular kid's
toy was a carbon copy of a highly sexual cartoon character aimed at adults.

If a popular kid's toy were merely a carbon copy of an existing German cartoon
character, alone, it would not really be notable at all.

I appreciate the sensitivity around putting labels on the character,
especially on a professional setting such as HN, but it's a detail important
to the story.

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mc32
Maybe and maybe not. Many cartoons' were made for an adult audience even if
now they are watched by children. This is also seen in movies like Shrek. They
have a two pronged approach at one level they are childish but at another they
are adult-themed.

This one is not that different from Betty Boop. Many movies and cartoons had
both childish and adult themes intermixed before the Hayes moral code kicked
in.

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aaron695
A comment thread where they translate some of the comics -

[http://mysticwicks.com/archive/index.php/t-102222.html](http://mysticwicks.com/archive/index.php/t-102222.html)

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tremon
So, basically, Mattel owes a large part of its fortune to the non-existence of
IP laws?

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jigg4joe
The article states that Mattel bought the rights to the doll.

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tremon
_debuted Barbie at the New York toy fair on March 9, 1959_

 _acquired the rights to Bild Lilli in 1964_

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tim333
I'm not sure IP laws stop you making a doll that looks a bit like another
doll.

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Natsu
There was that Mattel lawsuit over the 'Bratz' doll rights. It resulted in a
huge judgement that was later overturned, IIRC.

EDIT: I suppose I should mention that there were some issues resulting from
the guy who made them changing jobs as well, but still, it's not too far
outside that realm.

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tim333
I think Mattel vs Bratz was mostly about the Bratz guy having been employed by
Mattel when he had the idea rather than Bratz being similar to other dolls.

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Natsu
You're right, but it wouldn't have happened but for the idea that you can own
ideas about dolls in the first place (i.e. I believe it was related to IP
assignment clauses in the contract).

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sandworm101
Wow. Anyone who thinks Barbie isn't the best role model, or that she pushes an
unrealistic image on young girls, read this link I found at the bottom of the
OP.

[http://www.messynessychic.com/2012/10/26/the-little-
barbie-t...](http://www.messynessychic.com/2012/10/26/the-little-barbie-that-
grew-breasts/)

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chaostheory
Like everything else, Barbie has evolved. There's a new Barbie line called
Careers which includes Barbie as a startup founder, doctor, teacher,
opthamologist, engineer, and even president. Barbie Careers dolls aren't all
caucasian either.

[http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-
alias%3D...](http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Dtoys-
and-games&field-keywords=barbie+careers)

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oscargrouch
I cant see this as evolution, because its still going on the same direction,
only more adequated to the modern times.

It still force's the goal of beauty, success, fame, prestige, money.. far from
the reality of life of most people in the world. There isnt a "chubby barbie"
for instance.. its natural in kids to be happy with whatever/whoever they are,
thats whats awesome in kids.

The only way to advance, evolve in this matter, is propably a reality where
kids dont care about barbie anymore, and instead of impossible role models,
they would choose something else, probably something where they are the ones
creating and doing stuff, and not a external role-model of what they are
supposed to be when they grow up, that can be the cause of a lot of
frustration and impossibility to have a dialetic relation with their own
reality, and try to improve it as a result.

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sandworm101
Except that when you talk to young people these days Barbie really is the
dream. Ask the average highschool student whether they would rather be a
doctor or an American Idol winner, astronaut or covergirl. The last study I
read listed "paris hilton's personal assistant" over being state governor. For
boys, sitcom actor now trumps fighter pilot. Becoming barbie/ken is their
american dream.

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bb101
Does anyone else get an icky feeling from looking at cartoons from a
late-1940s German newspaper? Entertainment for people of a country that only 5
years ago at the time was ushering millions into forced labor and gas
chambers.

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ljf
How do you feel reading the papers today?

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bb101
Pretty good. The only countries that seem to be doing the same today are North
Korea and, to some extent, ISIS. Neither are from our culture so our ability
to exert change is limited.

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throwupper247
The US prisson system comes to mind ... completely ridiculous comparison, I
know

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ant6n
The difference is that post-war Germany was very much confronted with the
gravity of what Nazi-Germany had done.

The US hasn't had that in more than 100 years.

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throwupper247
The irony is, germany was controlled by the allies then, including the US, the
ones whose population you just called ignorant, that watches movies about
prostitutes' escapedes or war glorification.

