
A Learning Secret: Don't Take Notes with a Laptop (2014) - endisukaj
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-learning-secret-don-t-take-notes-with-a-laptop/
======
seventhtiger
I tended to be in the top of the classes I was in and as far as I've seen my
method was somewhat different.

I also only take notes on paper, but more importantly, I throw all my notes
out as soon as I finish writing them.

For me studying is the act of writing the notes. The purpose of notes was
never to read them later. That's why writing on paper is important to me. It's
not about the qualities and convenience of the storage medium. It's about the
experience of writing itself that makes me dislike digital notes.

When it's time for exams I go back to the primary source, whether it's a text
book, lectures, or handouts, and I write a new set of notes. I throw those out
when I'm done also.

You might think it's inefficient, which it is only in terms of ink and paper.
In terms of time and effort, at least for me personally, the act of putting
pen on sheet is 10x as effective as reading in building comprehension and
retention. From anecdotal observation, I get done in a few hours of taking new
notes what my classmates do in days of binge reading.

~~~
Aromasin
I do something similar. My method is always to try and fit everything I need
for an exam on a single A5 sheet of paper, as if I could take it into the exam
with me. The first 5 or so drafts I'd never be able to fit enough on, so with
each iteration I make the writing smaller, or work out a pictorial code, or
condense my explanation of a method to squeeze on as much as I could. By the
time I've finally managed to fit it all on one side of paper, I've thought
about how to compact the information in so many different ways that I could
recite everything on the paper without it. Repeat that process over the course
of 3 or 4 days with plenty of sleep, and it's stuck.

I've got all of the final renditions of each sheet I've ever done filed away.
It's always quite entertaining showing people my notes, because they're a
completely indecipherable mess of words, numbers, cryptograms, symbols,
scribbles and colours. Imagine a sort of Chthonian cult literature. It makes
me look insane - but I can still go back to ones from years ago and know what
it all means.

~~~
mud_dauber
This was my study mode throughout HS & (somewhat) through college. It really
does work, even though I had no idea why I started that way. And my final
editions were just as indecipherable to the outside world.

~~~
Aromasin
I started when one of my teachers allowed us to take said A5 sheet of paper
into my A-Level mock exams. All the class did well, as we had this lifeline.
Next exam we were given the same instruction but this time, unbeknownst to us
until we walked in, our paper was taken away from us at the door. We were
absolutely furious; until the teacher later showed us that not only were our
marks all but identical to that of the exam where we had the paper, they were
significantly higher than the exams we had before the whole cheat sheet
debacle. Basically he tricked us into revising effectively. It's a technique
that's stayed with me to this day.

~~~
mud_dauber
Devious _and_ effective. I approve of this. :-)

------
linker3000
I'm 53 and work in IT for a 'funky' learning/media company, ranking among the
seniors in both age and position.

I have a customised Cornell Notes* Word doc template, and I run off batches of
5-10 sheets to take to meetings and training sessions. My colleagues typically
turn up with their tablets, surfaces, laptops, phones and 'multitask', however
a few have started to adopt my method - it's been particularly useful for
client meetings where I have been able to later confirm sub-points or asides
mentioned by customers - sometimes months later. It's also very easy to drill
down through Quarterly reviews and link chains of historic comments 'on the
fly' \- for example, being able to confirm that so-and-so first mentioned
something about a similar technical issue on a different system 12 months ago.

My 'Cornell' style has developed an element of mindmapping on the pages, which
makes it easy to track conversations or sections of meetings that break off
into side discussions/brainstorming.

The biggest benefit is that the structure of all notes is consistent, so not
only can I find things very quickly, but others can interpret them too - this
is a particularly powerful way to allow teams to share, compare and
_understand_ someone else's notes, even months after the meeting or training
took place.

Edit: I also believe it looks very professional in customer meetings when
everyone from the same business is taking notes in a similar way, using
identical stationery.

I've been working this way since the mid 1990s and find it beats all forms of
tech.

_[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornell_Notes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornell_Notes)

_[http://lsc.cornell.edu/notes.html](http://lsc.cornell.edu/notes.html)

~~~
2rsf
> It's also very easy to drill down through Quarterly reviews and link chains
> of historic comments 'on the fly'

I have never heard about Cornell Notes, it seems like the missing piece I was
looking for to convince myself to move back to pen and paper since I too feel
that handwriting makes you remember and understand better.

But there are two things I am missing over OneNote

\- Search capabilities, how do you drill down and find the one small items you
don't exactly remember which category it belongs to ?

\- Non language items like URLs, code snippets or command line parameters- in
one note I simply copy paste them, how do you write them ?

~~~
linker3000
The left column is the notes/subject/item/named person index. If a 3 hr
meeting has 12 pages (double sided), I can probably pick up the notes and
check all columns in about 10 seconds.

If a URL is mentioned, it's likely either because someone knows it (make a
note to ask them for it), it's in their notes (ask for them), or it's been put
on a whiteboard (take a photo if needed). Ditto for code, if it's that kind of
meeting (and, yes, I do have those kinds of meetings).

------
rcthompson
Sounds like the _actual_ learning secret is "don't take verbatim notes", and
the only relevance of the laptop is that it makes it much easier to take
verbatim notes. I've pretty much only ever taken notes with a laptop, but I
_always_ take notes in the "digest and summarize" style, never recording the
speaker's words verbatim, and it's worked great for me. (It wasn't a conscious
decision; it's just how I take notes.)

~~~
iliketosleep
> Sounds like the actual learning secret is "don't take verbatim notes", and
> the only relevance of the laptop is that it makes it much easier to take
> verbatim notes.

Yes, that's pretty much what it explains. The title "don't take notes with a
laptop" is rather misleading. It's a well known fact that summarizing requires
the learner's brain to actively process the information, as opposed to
passively receiving information and copying. It wouldn't surprise me if
summarizing on a laptop leads to better outcomes than using handwriting, as
more cognitive resources would be available to process the information (rather
than frantically writing).

~~~
stevesimmons
Your notion of cognitive resources is most likely very different from your
brain's.

As I recall, all the evidence shows that handwriting rather than typing - even
when using similar strategies - has better recall. When writing, you can more
easily draw diagrams, do very quick sketches, add arrows and links back to
other parts of the text, etc. In short, you have more ways of contexualizing
the notes and representing them in a spatial way, giving your brain another
'hook' to help remember them.

~~~
iliketosleep
> Your notion of cognitive resources is most likely very different from your
> brain's.

In this context, I disagree. If the act of writing is using most of my
attention, I will miss large amounts of what is being said.

> As I recall, all the evidence shows that handwriting rather than typing -
> even when using similar strategies - has better recall.

I believe this is a highly nuanced issue and it's hard to make blanket
statements. For example, I can't see how it would apply to people with various
degrees of dyslexia - which could be up to 20% of the population. Having said
that, I'd be interested to see evidence that proves otherwise.

------
bayesian_horse
In lectures, note-taking at all should be avoided, most of the time.

Most lectures cover material that is presented very clearly in accompanying
materials, books or the internet. The idea I could do a better job than those
authors while listening to the stuff for the first time is ludicrous. And at
least for me it doesn't help recollection or focus to write notes while
listening, and many students report they can take notes without the
information passing through their brains. Other people swear they have to take
notes to focus.

There are exceptions of course, for example if the information is new and any
other available material is worthless.

~~~
leksak
I wish lectures weren't really a thing in their current format. Why just
reiterate what is already available in text and video? Have students consume
the theoretical material beforehand and schedule Q&A's or practical
application sessions or anything else where the interaction between lecturer
and student may become something more dynamic.

~~~
bayesian_horse
Making students sit for hours in lectures still seems the most practical and
efficient way to ensure they spend enough of their time learning something.

Expecting them to prepare the theory beforehand has not proven to be that
practical. Lecturers who try this quickly learn to adjust their expectations
downward, in my experience. And even then a lot of the "class" will be quite
underprepared.

~~~
leksak
> Making students sit for hours in lectures still seems the most practical and
> efficient way to ensure they spend enough of their time learning something.

I don't believe the onus is on the educational institute to ensure that
students learn anything when it comes to higher education.

The student is paying tuition or taking a student loan to be there, I think it
should be reasonable to expect them to exercise their own responsibility and
learn the source-material.

The fact that they do not might be indicative that they should be studying
something else, and catering to them only exascerbates the issue rather than
leading to a Darwinian solution.

------
kendallpark
My current (digital) handwritten note setup:

\- iPad Pro with (Gen 1 :sadface:) Apple Pencil.

\- Screen protector that gives a significant amount of friction to the screen
so that it feels closer to paper. [1]

\- Goodnotes 5 or Notability (I use both--depends on the circumstances). [2]

\- A rule: iPad is solely a reading/studying/note-taking device. No keyboard,
no social media apps.

\- Bonus: Twelve South BookBook case.

[1] ClearView Paper-Like Screen Protecter for Apple iPad Pro 12.9-inch
(2015/2017) [Made in Japan]

[2] I generally prefer GoodNotes over Notability, however, Notability has
side-by-side notes and recording. These features are supposedly in the
pipeline for GoodNotes, but have yet to materialize. GoodNotes handles large
PDFs better (Notability crashes). They both have passable desktop clients for
quick cmd+F searching of handwritten notes.

~~~
sjogress
Personally, I'm far too undisciplined to enforce such rules on a tablet, so I
got a Remarkable instead. Essentially an e-ink reader with handwriting
capabilities.

~~~
thom
This is an interesting device, but watching the video the lag seems very
unsatisfying - is that an issue in general use?

------
dexwiz
Thank goodness I learned this freshmen year in college, also the first time I
was allowed a laptop in class. I starting taking notes with pen and paper as
soon as I could write fast enough. I was successful in school, and I really
think a large part of it was recording so many notes. I noticed that many
classmates that stayed on laptops often were bad students. And the times I did
take my laptop to class I was worse for it.

This article aligns with most of why I thought note taking was good. It
definitely has a mechanical nature that typing just doesn't match. Also you
don't want notes that are just transcription, you want your own thoughts
recorded on the page. Something I think they missed though was diagrams.
Typing may result in a perfect transcription, but most lectures contain a
visual component. Being able to quickly copy a graph or diagram is extremely
useful. When taking notes via typing, there is no good way to do that without
a touch screen and some skill. I'm much more likely to remember a diagram I
drew than one I looked at.

I love how they gloss over the internet connectivity portion, but I also find
that to be a huge component in reality. Sometimes I need to "space off" for a
few seconds to digest an idea. When taking paper notes, I end up doodling
boxes or lines. When typing, I inevitably get distracted by some shiny thing
designed to steal my attention.

I do note in the workplace who brings paper and who brings a laptop to a
meeting. Sometimes you need a laptop to present or look up information. But if
you are solely there to listen, people who bring paper pay the most attention.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Why can’t you just take a picture of the diagram?

I actually never learned or benefited from note taking, so I’m pretty
clueless. I still got through university and grad school with good grades, but
I wonder if I was missing something. Professionally I draw a blank whenever
someone at a meeting asks me to take notes, kind of embarrassing.

~~~
veddox
> Why can’t you just take a picture of the diagram?

Because the learning effect is zero. (Also, not every professor allows it, and
you don't always sit in a location from which you can take a decent picture.
But that's beside the point.)

The best teacher I ever had in school never got tired of reminding us that we
learn in four different ways: hearing, writing, speaking, drawing. Taken
individually, hearing is the worst, drawing the best. The more you combine,
the better your rate of recall will be.

Drawing is fantastic because it engages your kinesthetic learning, your
spatial learning, and your analytical learning (because you really have to
look at a picture in detail before you can copy it).

~~~
Maskawanian
I dislike the reductive reasoning here.

I personally learn the best from listening intently to what the lecturer is
saying. That is why in college I would always sit at the front with an audio
recorder, and then listen to that until I memorized most of the content.

------
vincentmarle
I've never been fond of note taking in general, I found that I retain the most
knowledge when actually trying to make an effort to listen, and actively
trying to conceptualize everything mentally while the teacher is talking,
instead of occupying myself with writing notes.

~~~
inamberclad
I hope your professors post their lectures online.

~~~
RealityVoid
I'm the same way and when I was in college, I just took the notes off of one
of my classmates and just uses a copy machine. I never did find them
particularly useful though and have found seeking the same information from
different sources, i.e. manuals, books or online, to be of a far greater
impact.

I _never_ understood this argument that "note taking helps you remember" since
I never felt this was the case for me. I may just be lazy, or it might be the
fact that I have a horrendously hideous handwriting.

------
ergothus
My issue with this has always been that my longhand is terrible, and writing
under pressure makes it worse.

Longhand notes (which I do frequently for the RPGs I run, so practice isnt the
issue) are nigh unreadable. I literally have dozens of notebooks (not full,
but at least 30 - 50 pages each is pretty common ) of notes I struggle to read
and organize.

Being able to write with speed and br able to read them is why an elementary
school teacher recommended that I try using a computer to write on back before
laptops were a thing, and it remains a big reason I rely on them for work
notes now.

~~~
funwithjustin
I wonder if adults can improve their handwriting.

~~~
scarecrowbob
Most skills are things that you can get better at.

I bought a nice fountain pen (well, a $14 pilot) and overhauled my cursive
writing. It took about 6 weeks and I write pretty legibly in cursive. I'm more
legible in various print scripts (that I have also worked on as an adult), but
cursive is faster.

Admittedly, that is just an anecdote. But if you're curious, try and get
better... you'll likely improve if you actively practice.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
> but cursive is faster

Have you tested? I recall - maybe a decade ago - seeing a study suggesting
that in fact printing individual letters could be faster; I still write in
cursive when I need to handwrite though (basically never).

Edit: [http://nautil.us/issue/40/learning/cursive-handwriting-
and-o...](http://nautil.us/issue/40/learning/cursive-handwriting-and-other-
education-myths) is a good summary; first 2 paras of last section are the
TL;DR.

~~~
scarecrowbob
No, I haven't actually tested it. Maybe it just feels that way. But it does
feel that way.

------
scottmsul
I was physics/CS undergrad and did very well academically. I didn't really
take notes much though. The strategy that worked for me was to read the book
ahead of time, then the lectures were more to help digest material I was
already familiar with. And for those giant auditorium-sized lecture classes, I
just skipped class completely and only read the book. In fact I found taking
notes to be distracting - how can I pay attention when I'm trying to copy
everything down?

~~~
alexgmcm
I was pure Physics and did the same.

I'd summarise the relevant sections for the exams in LaTeX documents as well.
The pain of having to put it into LaTeX made me absorb it better I think...

------
fpoling
The article mentioned that one of the problems is too verbatim taking of notes
on laptops. A friend who works as a translator mentioned that when she
translated a conversation, she could not remember any details of what she
translated afterwards. Yet after translating an article or technical
documents, she learned a lot on the subject. The difference for her is that
translating a conversation is mechanical verbatim process, translating an
article requires conscious efforts.

------
yial
I frequently still use notepads for notes, I find it actually helps me retain
information.

Additionally, when reviewing shortly after a meeting, I find that I can better
suss out the truly important action items. Especially if things need to be
delegated.

This isn’t to say I never take notes on my computer. (Notepad++ is wonderful
for this), but I find the physical note taking to be incredibly beneficial for
organization of information.

Additionally, there may still be a certain social impact where people feel
that you’re “paying attention” when taking notes on a physical pad, vs they
feel they’ve “lost your attention” the second you start to type away on a
device.

~~~
broth
Mind sharing how you use Notepad++ to take notes? Why is it wonderful?

~~~
LocalPCGuy
I use Sublime Text for not taking when not doing it longhand, and I really
like it. I think it's because it's an environment we're intimately familiar
with, so there is nothing to get in the way of just capturing the information
you want to capture.

------
sumodm
Here is what I discovered in my experience if this helps someone, completely
anecdotal.

 _Paper vs Computer_

1\. Paper:

    
    
       - Ability to spread things out, to take stock of a big project, simultaneous refer back, draw between two pages etc.
       - Faster draw diagrams etc, partially fixed, see article about thing student who used latex/inkscape to draw. 
       - Faster to connect up different ideas.
    

2\. Computer:

    
    
       - Search: When I need to go back to find that idea ('keyword'), when you have hundreds of sheets is super easy.
       - Faster to type.
       - Easier to organize, I just copy paste and create folders etc. I use Latex and org-mode.
    

_Few Tips_

1\. Cornell'esque techniques definitely help when revising and organizing.

2\. Taking some notes actually helps you to focus better. Reduces random day
dreaming, skipping crucial info (which leads to rest of lecture/meeting being
harder to understand) etc.

3\. Take condensed notes gives me time to listen and makes short notes.

4\. But especially in Math related areas, there is no way to assimilate
information in one sitting. I often used to hear a random English sentence,
only to later realize that some word there had a specific mathematical meaning
and it had much deeper meaning than I initially understood. Over-simplified
example, xyz is a group. Group here being group theoretic group.

5\. Video Recordings of classes and reviewing them and then scribing watching
the videos helps a lot, esp for the likes of Advanced CS/EE courses.

6\. Writing is learning, verification and long term information storage at the
same time. One of my advisors once told me, when I asked him how do you store
so much information about various papers etc, "Thats why I wrote that book".

~~~
thom
This whole thread and only one mention of org-mode, what is the world coming
to.

------
vmurthy
I used a Wacom Bamboo Spark[1] during my Post-grad and am really impressed by
it. You write on regular paper using a special pen (ball pen) and the notes
get synced to their app called Inkspace. Your own hand-writing , regular
paper. No dependency on Livescribe refills or special papers. FWIW, I explored
iPad + Pencil but it was too costly for my needs in 2017.

[1][https://www.amazon.in/Wacom-Bamboo-Digitizer-Tablet-
CDS-600P...](https://www.amazon.in/Wacom-Bamboo-Digitizer-Tablet-
CDS-600P/dp/B010PKT5U0/ref=sr_1_5?crid=YSNG9JB4VZJ8&keywords=bamboo+spark+wacom&qid=1561442315&s=gateway&sprefix=bamboo+spark%2Caps%2C281&sr=8-5)

------
codingdave
I never took notes. It mildly disturbed my high school teachers, and greatly
disturbed my college professors. Until the first tests/grades, when I did
fine. Then they realized that I was actually listening, and getting the
concepts. As the article said, the cognitive processing is what matter more
than the actual notes you take.

Now I fully admit that if I had taken notes, I may have been an A student
instead of a B student. But I just found the note-taking process to be a
distraction from listening.

~~~
bpyne
I have the same issue with notes. When I have to analyze what I'm hearing, I
can't do anything other than listen. It's like my brain shifts between modes.

My intuition is that I would have been an A student if I took time to write
notes after the class while the memories were still fresh.

------
zachruss92
This is actually something that I've been saying about myself for years -
which I discovered through my own observations when I was in high school.

Long story short, I was in a "dual-enrollment" program which allowed me to
take classes at a local college at night while going to high school during the
day. I was able to graduate high school with over 30 college credits. One of
the courses I took was psychology 101. I didn't particularly like this course
(just wasn't interested compared to other subjects) and I ended up goofing off
most of the time taking some notes on my laptop/iPad.

Needless to say, this affected my grades and I was at risk of failing the
course. In order to study for the final, I ended up going through the book and
taking notes of key terms and concepts - writing them down. I was able to get
a real understanding of the content and ended up getting 100% on the exam and
passing the course.

My lesson; my personal comprehension goes way up when I physically write
things down. Now I keep a notebook that I use every day (a bullet journal). In
many cases, I duplicate what I'm doing in my project management systems, but I
am able to visualize what I need to do much more efficiently.

------
chlorophyl
This is actually not true for me. I recently entered medical school after 20
years being a programmer. I find that typing notes while listening to the
lecture is best for me. Then after I return home, I re-read the notes and
retype it again without referencing it to see how much i remember.

I tried writing my notes by hand but I found it too distracting. I write
decently fast but I find myself missing the points of the lecture because I am
trying to remember them in order to write them.

For me typing my notes is more convenient and not distracting at all since I'm
a fast typist and the act of typing is instinctive for me. I find typing
allows me to concentrate on the lecture by listening and yet being able to put
the lecture points in writing fast enough.

I tested both methods prior to one of my midterm exams, I get a much higher
grade on the subjects where I listen to the lectures while typing my notes
than on the ones I listen to while writing by hand. Most of my exams are 2-3
hr handwritten essays.

------
tiku
I've heard students about using 1 shared google doc where the "multiplay" with
their notes, so that they all chip in and even elaborate on certain questions.

~~~
LoudogUno
ahh that's cool. I've done similar things at Meetup organizer meetings where
everyone chips in to add what the feel is important to the "minutes". like a
static record of what each person felt the others should remember takeway

------
crazygringo
Or better: take classes where they e-mail you the slides afterward. Taking
notes is archaic.

Just my personal experience, but taking notes was always horrible for me -- as
my brain was busy trying to think "how do I write this down in a way that will
make sense" as the article suggests, I was _missing_ the next few sentences
from the lecturer and getting progressively more lost.

And when the lecturer is making a point, it's not always clear until _later_
whether it was an irrelevant tangent or a main element that will be on the
test later.

Taking notes _in class_ distracts from effort that could be better spent
learning and comprehending.

On the other hand, taking slides from classes and transforming them into your
personal notes and study guide at your own pace -- _that 's_ immensely
valuable.

------
shishy
(FYI -- article is from 2014 -- I was wondering why this was being studied
again, when it seemed well established, both anecdotally and in literature).

Anytime I took notes by typing, I'd forget it seconds after finishing. But
writing by hand forced me to think about what I was writing. The only thing
that trumped that in cementing my understanding was actually having to explain
what I learned to my classmates/peers.

I wonder how recall from writing compares to typing out flashcards (e.g. Anki)
and then using spaced repetition techniques to memorize concepts.

~~~
rgoulter
The kinds of questions I ask when writing flashcards: How can I split this
info up into different facts? What facts do I care about / will I care about?

But I think I wouldn't make flashcards for something if I understood it. I've
found practicing recall with flashcards highlights what I don't understand.
e.g. sometimes I've been confused between similar cards, and it's not obvious
when looking at the cards the similarities/differences.

I think this complements rather than replaces things like the manually writing
notes or explaining concepts.

------
zZorgz
I probably think this is true for school, that using laptops is not as
productive for taking notes, but I didn't find writing down notes on paper in
classes particularly pleasant either.

Past my school life into employment life, the situation is much different. I
take digital notes on many tasks, I search through them like in a database
when I need to recall something. I don't get distracted for note taking in
environments that sitting through long lectures encourage. I still take notes
on paper sometimes, but write a lot less down.

------
alan_n
I'm actually looking to switch to digital from handwritten notes. Just need to
find a (phone) app that lets me write and take photos for diagrams at the same
time (anybody know any good ones?) instead of having to be switching between
the notes and the camera. I've done handwritten notes for years but they have
several problems for me: they get lost, i end up with notes scattered across
whatever pieces of paper where closest to me, my fast handwriting is awful and
i can't read it after some time, they end up getting "transcribed" anyways
(which takes a long time).

Usually my workflow is: take notes, if I can avoid things I know are in the
book, I will, then a week or so before exams I'll read everything (book+notes_
and make flashcards in Anki. I know I can do 25 pages (of a book) a day
comfortably so I'll time it appropriately. Then I proceed to cram for a day or
two until I can realiably do the whole deck with ease. This usually takes me
less time (1/2 usually) than the reading/making hence why I want to switch to
digital notes, to avoid a step. Most of the material that's tested for usually
doesn't need to be memorized, which irritates me to know end, but what can I
do. So I cram so I can promptly forget.

I find concepts are either understood or not understood, they do not need to
be memorized. Things that are usually tested for (at least where I live / for
what I'm studying) tend to be facts/procedures. At the end of the year I
extract these from my notes / anki cards for future reference.

One other thing I do is the flashcards are written exactly how I will answer
the question 90% of the time, sometimes in my own words, sometimes extracted
right from the book. Before when I studied in English I didn't do this because
I'm comfortable with the language, but because I'm studying in another
language now, often the wording is the hardest part (also in part why reading
takes me so long). This way I don't have to worry about that. Also this makes
exams go lightning fast. I'm always first to leave.

------
nvarsj
Okay, so I started an MS (OMSCS) a couple years ago, and I had to relearn now
to study. So I've gone through this process recently.

So far I've managed to get usually the top score or very close to the top on
all my exams across 5 classes. In my most recent class I got the top score of
96 on an exam where the median was in the 60s.

All I do is take hand written notes (albeit digitally on an ipad) during
lectures. Then before the exam, I review my notes. That's it! My recall with
this approach has been great.

I admit though, having the lecture videos online is a massive help for this
method. I watch at 1.5x and frequently pause it if I miss something, or re-
watch a section if I didn't understand it the first time - then take my notes.
I always had trouble with real-time lectures in my undergrad.

------
vezycash
I took notes on my laptop using OneNote - far better than Microsoft Word.

I used color for headings. Added bullets and numbers even when it wasn't
dictated that way. Added acronyms - mnemonics to the headings. Marked out
filler content while writing or immediately after class. Summarized, rewrote
important parts in my own words. Marked areas where I'd have to reproduce
verbatim.

Finally, for exams, I read using my Nook eBook reader instead of the laptop
because: The glossy screen is tiring. And there are many distractions on my
laptop - browser, games, movies...

Finally, while reading, I actively set questions and answered them after
reading. This question method's far better than re-reading multiple times.

With all these, five hours was all I needed for a semester's worth of work.

------
sklivvz1971
Pro-tip: if you are like me, never take note and divert all your attention to
the lesson.

Getting copies of notes or reading the actual book can easily replace any note
taking. Being distracted from the actual explanation because I'm using my
attention to write, is a net loss.

------
SamuelAdams
I am curious if this applies to the workforce. I spend a lot of time in
meetings taking notes using OneNote. Some colleagues use Evernote, while
others use pen and paper. Then there are some that take no notes at all.

Yet, when we discuss things the next week (weekly meetings are common where I
work), some people seem to not remember anything about the prior week's
meeting.

I use my laptop to quickly look up last week's notes and reference those while
discussing weekly progress. Others do OK with one or two subjects (from
memory), but lack detail or flat out do not recall other discussion points.

------
dschuetz
I did both, wrote and typed, and wrote on my iPad pro with the stylus. The
best results I got when taking notes and studying on real paper. I believe the
cognition/perception bias comes from the unnaturally glowing panels and the
lack of complex haptic feedback like that of a rolling pen or scratching. Any
indirect input that comes combined with the visually perceived knowledge makes
memorizing more effective, I guess. Glowing visuals are less comfortable for
me, perhaps they overload the eyes in a way. Reading on actual paper feels
less "heavy".

------
slics
I still use a paper notebook at work to track my day to day action items. It
feels so gratifying when you simply check a task as complete. I tried using a
tablet for that matter, I just felt like I ignored my action items as it felt
they were out of reach. I have to always look for them in the tablet, when in
the paper the page is looking at me without me have to look for it.

In addition, I work in secure labs and electronics are a big NO, notebook on
the other hand it simply works. My 2c. Pen and paper it is still relevant and
it always will be.

------
LoudogUno
Going against what seems to be the prevailing thought in this thread. Here's
why and how I take notes primarily on a laptop.

When the lecture, presentation or meeting starts a have a macro that creates a
new Evernote note prepended with the date and starts recording into QuickTime.
Throughout the exchange, I am typing up quick and dirty first draft notes
using a macro to screenshot the portion of the QuickTime window displaying the
time elapsed. I also employ symbols/emojis to flag points in the notes that
are important‼️, should be returned to and reviewed later , are confusing,
raise a question ect... Whenever there is downtime (e.g. interruption or lull
in the presentation) I work my way back and start improving the notes:
Organizing them into a hierarchy with headings, indentation and boldation.
Also, I Hyperlink useful, relevant or referenced URLs.

At the bottom of the document I have a separated section called TAKEAWAY
containing a bulleted list of questions to ask, things to follow up on, and
key points. I can always ⌘↓ > ↩ to add an item line to this section.

At the end of the exchange, I check my TAKEWAY section and clarify any
questions. I stop recording and add the audio file to the top of the document.
This leaves me with a reference document I can revisit, clean up, and
reference later.

The process of making the note visually appealing and easy to read by cleaning
up, formatting, and adding hyperlinks accomplishes a lot of the
internalization handwriting does because it forces you to try to convey the
kernel of the information being consumed in as well few formatted, organized
words as possible.

Furthermore, I'm the type that really values immediately looking up unfamiliar
referenced concepts/ideas so I don't misunderstand what/why something is said.
As for diagrams, they can usually be incorporated by adding slides of the
presentation, taking a picture of the whiteboard at the end, or just googling
whatever the diagram was.

With the wonderful world of macros and automation I can change color, size,
formatting, add lists; add hyperlinks, multi-media images, timestamps ect...
and keep everything in an easy to read, search and share document.

Most importantly my handwriting is bogus. I really couldn't do it any other
way.

~~~
leksak
Nice workflow, and goes back to this comment somewhat:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20271383](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20271383)
However, I'm not sure about the legality of recording audio without informing
everyone in the room. In my country that would be illegal as some people have
protected identities.

~~~
LoudogUno
I think I understand your concern about the [local] legality of “recording
audio”... if everybody would cease bringing (or otherwise sufficiently
disable) _recording devices_ to/in public spaces.

I don’t think the average person understands > cares > is negatively impacted
by that concern.

Any knowledge or experiences?

~~~
leksak
I suppose it's a lot like jay walking. Some people will care enough to observe
the law and others will not. In reality, the problem only arises if you record
something (say a lecture) and share it publicly and it exposes an individual
whose identity is otherwise protected.

My experience has been, as someone that observes the law, I've been denied the
opportunity to audio-record a lecture. In this instance, the person in
question did not object but the professor did - stating that there was an
individual that could be affected. Granted, it doesn't really make a
difference if I use it for my own personal use but since everything is hosted
in the cloud these days...

------
vedantroy
Sometimes I feel like I'm forced to take verbatim notes on my computer, even
though I know that's bad for my learning.

Specifically, I'm reading a very detailed textbook on databases. I feel that
if I don't take notes I will forget most of the content in the textbook
because the textbook is so information dense, but at the same time, whenever I
take notes they end up being word-for-word copies of the text because the
textbook is already so concise/word-efficient.

------
jedberg
I did my final year of college three years after my first three years. In the
first three years I took paper notes and got terrible grades. In the fourth
year I used a laptop. The laptop however was not great, so it had no internet
and I just used a full screen editor window to take notes, so no distractions,
and no verbatim writing because I couldn't type that quickly.

Everyone learns differently. You just have to find what works for you. But no
internet is key.

------
Thinkx220
When I take notes I take them with a laptop precisely because of the increased
speed it provides. Usually I find that note taking in general is actually
counter productive because it diverts my attention away from the lecture. As a
result I want the note taking process to have a low cognitive burden so I
don't miss what my instructor is saying.

I usually use Emacs Org-mode for my note taking and then refactor my notes
once class is over.

------
paulsutter
In person, taking notes on paper always works better for me. And when I’m on
the computer (Zoom conference or Skype), notes on the computer feels more
natural.

------
onorton
I would always take notes on paper as others have said as I think it helps
with retention, at least for me.

Even then I would only take notes of equations to memorise them and things
that the lecturers said that were even not explained properly or absent in the
handouts/slides. At my university there were recordings of the lectures but I
was too lazy/didn't want to waste my time looking up exactly what they said.

------
barney54
What worked best for me in school was longhand notes and then nightly typing
the notes up. (Though I seldom revised the notes the same night or week.) For
finals I would spend a lot of time revising my notes and comparing notes with
my friends. I found that my friends who had taken notes on their laptops had
more notes, but it was exceedingly rare I actually missed anything important.

------
jt0
Any good suggestion for a handwriting to digital transcription workflow? I'm
peripherally aware of specialized notepads that do this, but don't know how
well they work. I guess scanning paper notes for conversion would be another
option. Having a searchable, org-mode integrated record that can include
diagrams would be awesome. Is OCR for cursive writing pretty reliable?

------
acd
But in the age of fast. Seems like going slow and putting more effort into
hand writing notes pays off in learning. As a side note analogy if you drive
via GPS you will not remember they way as easy if you drive without via
analogue map.

How about if you take notes on laptop put that into spaced repetition software
like Anki & Supermemo compared to hand written notes memory retention?

~~~
LoudogUno
I guess it depends on how many places you navigate to and how important you
think recalling each route (from memory) is. slow is good unless you have to
prioritize what to remember I think...

------
sebringj
I would think writing in itself is not the key, rather the effort to take the
note itself in how it creates stronger connections to form clearer memories.
If you had a laptop and had to create diagrams in software describing the
lesson, I would have to believe this would be at least as effective if not
more if it engaged more of your brain to accomplish this.

------
sprash
For me the best way to take notes in lectures is/was a Boogie Board Sync which
is sadly not available any more.

It is the best of both worlds. You basically have a zero latency touchscreen
that can save your notes to PDF.

Even the best Tablets today have latency, most are designed more as
touchscreen. Writing gets tiring and distracting really quick.

I wonder why the Boogie Board Sync was discontinued.

~~~
flavor8
Yeah I have one of those too. They recently added sync (through your phone) to
dropbox/evernote, which makes it even more useful. It's a great device - zero
distraction digital notetaking.

According to one of their support agents, their sales numbers were low.
Personally I think their marketing sucked - they seemed to be targeting kids
rather than students/business users. Their styling reflected this identity
crisis too.

They have a product coming later in the year which will "address some of the
same needs", TBD though how thoroughly it'll be a fill-in for it. In the
meantime I bought a protective folio case for mine and am babying it.

------
Bedon292
For me the best was using a Surface and One Note. It allowed me to load the
slides right into One Note, and write notes right on top of them. Hand written
if necessary, but preferably typed for legibility.

Now, this isn't without issues, as being on a computer allows for easier
distractions. But as long as one stays focused on the class, it can work quite
well.

------
crucialfelix
I'm trying to get into the habit of writing messy mindmaps, then redrawing
those as a process to understanding the material. One single glance at a
Mindmap a week later and I reactivate the concepts and understanding.
Especially important for building internal context (how the components relate
to each other)

------
totallynotcool
Just picked up a "livescribe" echo from eBay for $30. I don't do well with
notes on a computer or tablet but I like the idea of digitizing them and
recording a meeting at the same time; and pin point play back. We'll see how
it goes.

~~~
vmurthy
From my experience, I found that the Livescribe and their ilk depend on a
razor/cartridge model. The pen itself might be cheap(the razor) but the
refills/special paper (the cartridges) are ridiculously expensive. Any
particular reason/hack you found to circumvent the prices?

------
pjmlp
I usually take notes on paper as well.

Then I either scan them directly to PDF or take to effort to re-write them, if
the information is to be better structured or shared with others.

Besides all the benefits mentioned by others, it is also a good way to rest my
wrists from just typing.

~~~
linker3000
Rewriting contemporary notes some time later adds another
filter/interpretation to the information, and if you choose to remove or
rewrite things that _now_ don't seem relevant or accurate (rather than
checking with the information giver), there's a risk that the notes become
diluted or lose details that are re-graded as unimportant but later turn out
to be the opposite.

Always best to write good, efficient, consistently-styled notes once, and
annotate changes/corrections on them if they are needed. It saves time too!

~~~
logifail
> Rewriting contemporary notes some time later adds [...] interpretation to
> the information..

Isn't this a fairly crucial part of "learning"?

~~~
linker3000
Sure, write up stuff that supports your referral back to the original notes,
or makes corrections and additions - but don't get rid of the original notes
or replace them with interpreted copies.

~~~
logifail
The original article was talking about students learning in lectures. One
might presume that the learning process ends with students being tested in a
situation where they have no notes of any kind?

If that's true, then there's no point holding on to "the originals", because
on the day of the test/exam/whatever, you won't have access to them anyway.

In essence, transferring knowledge from the original lecture via the written
notes to ones memory?

------
mesaframe
> high verbatim note content was associated with lower retention of the
> lecture material. I think this a key finding/point. And other connotation to
> this idea would be that, whatever you learn, write them down in your words.

------
vast
I honestly never believed that digital devices are good to take notes,
especially if you have to reflect them. Digital devices distract you on so
many levels, it is hard to believe people even started doing it.

------
sequoia
[https://sequoia.makes.software/conference-tips/#-take-
notes-...](https://sequoia.makes.software/conference-tips/#-take-notes-on-
paper)

d:o)

------
enriquto
another learning secret: take courses where the teacher gives you printed
notes of the content he will present, and write down the occasional
comment/clarification during class.

------
padobson
_Moreover, high verbatim note content was associated with lower retention of
the lecture material. It appears that students who use laptops can take notes
in a fairly mindless, rote fashion, with little analysis or synthesis by the
brain. This kind of shallow transcription fails to promote a meaningful
understanding or application of the information._

The study sort of assumes that taking notes at all is necessary, but I think
the conceptual understanding vs. rote memorization idea suggests that taking
notes should be questionable also.

Jordan Peterson has 3 minutes of advice for taking notes conceptually rather
than verbatim: [https://youtu.be/lMvvdz7YJ-Q](https://youtu.be/lMvvdz7YJ-Q)

I take notes in text files every day. I do it for work, I do it for exercise,
I do it for cooking and grocery shopping, I do it for planning my day, I do it
for self improvement.

Writing it out is the simplest form of explanation - I'm explaining the
concept to myself. I'm analyzing it to make sure I don't have any logical
holes in my thinking, and then I can refer back to it. If I try to explain the
concept to another person, and they point out a logical hole or they otherwise
can't grasp the point, I go back to my text file and try to find the missing
pieces and add them in.

I like this because I always have the concept at the ready. Maybe I don't
encounter the topic for a few months or years, and I go back and read the text
file on the topic and it's like the neurons organized around the topic all
come to life again - but the best part is that there are all these new neurons
that I've picked up that apply to it, and the text file gets a little bigger.

It also helps me compartmentalize. Once I've written something into digital
stone, I can switch contexts knowing I've pushed the concept as far as my mind
can take it for the moment. Later, I can come back and pick up where I left
off after my subconscious has had time to chew on it.

------
smittywerben
If we assume 1) taking notes with a computer is faster (not always the case),
2) lecture time is limited (i.e. fast paced, not recorded), 3) abundant time
after to review notes, then taking notes with a computer is usually better.

You are only presented the information once. There is a reason stenographers
record court and lectures. I prefer to handwrite notes on my own time,
sometimes twice or three times, for my final copy I study from. If you are
smarter than me, you can get away with less notes (or get them from me).

In business meetings if you frantically record every detail, people think you
might be a lawyer so this may not apply.

------
tempodox
I'm not surprised. Besides, if your note formatting requires the tiniest bit
more than linear ASCII, any computerized interface will be a big let-down.

------
narrator
I took a bunch of notes on my laptop, but never used any of them in studying
for finals. I just used other people's outlines.

------
jonshariat
I wonder if this holds up for those that grow up only typing.

It might because writing makes you slow down a bit. But would be interesting
to see.

------
imw
Does anyone know if there is data on the effectiveness of handwriting on
paper, versus a tablet, e.g. the reMarkable?

------
a3_nm
I'm not sure that this study means that one should not take notes with a
laptop (as the article's title would suggest). Everyone works differently:
just because there is an average tendency for people to perform better when
taking notes by hand, doesn't mean that you shouldn't use a laptop if your own
experience shows that it works better for you.

------
ragerino
The only notes I take are questions I want to pose to the speaker. The rest
happens in my head.

------
kstenerud
So, the actual issue is that transcription doesn't correlate with retention,
and people who type tend to fall into the trap of transcription more easily.

There's nothing wrong or inferior about taking notes with a computer vs a
notepad so long as you're not transcribing.

But, "Don't take notes with a laptop" is punchier.

~~~
nstart
Mmm. My two cents...

There's some extrapolation here. I've tried multiple models of taking notes
with digital tools. They all come with this assumption that our brains are
thinking in a single mode at any given time which is not practically true. I
can be understanding what a person is saying and in my head categorising the
information (table) while picturing what connections that info might have to
something else (drawings?). And then I remember that Ellie from the other
team/class had done something similar and I note down to set up a meeting
(todo/calendar). All this while noting down questions of my own (free form
text).

The point is, analog allows us to take notes and organise on the go. Digital
tools, especially laptops (and typing in general), assume our thoughts are
organised before we digitise them.

So unless using a pen on a tablet nothing comes even close in the digital
world to recording notes the way our brain actually wants to.

Therefore don't take notes with a laptop is valid advice. It's not a tool made
for taking on the fly notes and you'd have to be really really special at what
you do to bend it to actually be useful in this scenario.

------
hyperpallium
_How I 'm able to take notes in mathematics lectures using LaTeX and Vim_
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19448678](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19448678)

------
stillbourne
My learning secret is don't take notes, ever.

------
acconrad
What if I want to take notes but not contribute to deforestation and issues
with the environmental impact of using paper in 2019?

~~~
diffeomorphism
Where are you buying your paper? For example European paper is made from local
wood, (re)planted in a sustainable way; also recyling. If you rely on extra
cheap paper made from Brazilian wood that might be an argument. The stronger
argument is that paper production is fairly energy and water-intensive.

That said, I would be highly skeptical that an ipad + pencil is more eco-
friendly to produce than however much paper you use during its lifetime.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
>highly skeptical that an ipad + pencil [...] //

The people using paper probably also have the iPad, so it's probably whether
the pencil used is more eco-friendly than the extra disposable plastic pens
(which it might be)? Then you'd need to look at product lifetime, which is
probably more limited by time-passed for Apple users and products than by
actual hours of use??

I think these things are always more complex to analyse than it first appears.

