
End torture and medical neglect of Julian Assange - ge0rg
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30383-4/fulltext
======
jorge-d
I'm quite shoked by the level of the comments regarding Assange. Whatever you
think about the character is irrelevant. Law should be the basis on any action
taken against him, whether he's a-hole or not. Now you can argue on whether
his actions were legal (I mean, he broke US law but he's not US citizen nor
living in the US so that's debatable). However there is ZERO legal basis on
having someone not being taken care of while in custody.

~~~
mullingitover
> However there is ZERO legal basis on having someone not being taken care of
> while in custody.

Most of the health issues in question here arose when he was not in custody,
but rather in self-imposed exile in the embassy. He could've walked out at any
point and been treated, but that would've meant accepting the consequences for
the laws he'd broken.

~~~
93po
Most of the health issues around him are being raised as a result of his stay
in prison, not his asylum in the embassy.

~~~
mullingitover
Yeah, no. Read that article again, and the linked Medium post they're talking
about. They're talking about health issues during his voluntary exile at the
embassy. From this article:

> On Nov 22, 2019, we, a group of more than 60 medical doctors, wrote to the
> UK Home Secretary to express our serious concerns about the physical and
> mental health of Julian Assange.[1]In our letter,[1] we documented a history
> of denial of access to health care and prolonged psychological torture.

I have no sympathy for this group's claims, because he was absolutely not
denied medical care. He had an outstanding arrest warrant that was completely
valid, and he chose to accept the consequences of skipping bail.

It's like a child running away from home because he didn't want to face
prosecution for sexual assault, and then crying to the press that his parents
aren't taking care of him while he's living in a flophouse.

[1] [https://medium.com/@doctorseh4assange/concerns-of-medical-
do...](https://medium.com/@doctorseh4assange/concerns-of-medical-doctors-
about-the-plight-of-mr-julian-assange-ffb09a5dd588)

~~~
93po
They mention his health declining during the embassy visit, which is relevant
because he was denied the ability to get proper medical care. But most of the
ongoing news of his decline is from prison.

You are entirely lacking in empathy of a journalist who's done amazing things
for society and is a human being. It's a shame your feelings were hurt by
whichever leak came out of WikiLeaks, but it's also a shame you feel the need
to perpetuate smears and dehumanize someone who's only ever had your best
interests at heart.

Also Assange was never facing prosecution for sexual assault. He was only
wanted for questioning, blatantly for political purposes. Please stop
spreading fake news

~~~
mullingitover
> It's a shame your feelings were hurt by whichever leak came out of WikiLeaks

I'm more hurt about the radical transparency he espoused for others while
keeping secrets like his relationship with the Trump campaign [1]. I wonder
why Wikileaks didn't leak this truth[2]:

> President Trump offered to pardon Julian Assange if he agreed to cover up
> the involvement of Russia in hacking emails from the Democratic National
> Committee, which were later published by WikiLeaks, a London court was told
> on Wednesday.

[1] [https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/11/the-
sec...](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/11/the-secret-
correspondence-between-donald-trump-jr-and-wikileaks/545738/)

[2] [https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-offered-assange-
pardon-i...](https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-offered-assange-pardon-if-he-
covered-up-russian-hack-court-hears?source=articles&via=rss)

~~~
93po
I'm so over this. Please spread your misinformation elsewhere. It's a shame HN
moderation only selectively enforces their policies and allows people like you
to propagate lies and dishonesty.

~~~
mullingitover
I'm sorry to have bothered you with the facts I presented.

------
nemo
I really do not like Julian Assange as a person, I do not admire his work.
He's a fraud, a con-man, and might also be a criminal. But a critical measure
of a society is how equal justice is for all, even those hated by society.
Tolerance of the abuse of prisoners or torture is a grave moral failure no
matter who the perp is. Maybe the docs are all duped by the scammers around
Assange, but it looks pretty abusive not to transfer him to a hospital.

~~~
93po
Please post substantial evidence that Assange has conned or defrauded anyone.
Wikileaks has a 100% track record.

~~~
nemo
No matter how many of Assange's lies I enumerate, his fans just brush them off
since they don't want to see the truth about Assange - he's simpler when he's
a good guy rather than an abusive narcissist. But google 'assange deceit' and
related and you'll find plenty. Wikileaks has been working through cutouts
with Russian intelligence for a while so the track record is pretty
problematic. [https://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2016/09/09/wikileaks-
hi...](https://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2016/09/09/wikileaks-hid-syrian-
deposits-in-russian-bank)

~~~
93po
Russian connection is conspiracy theory and there's no evidence. Go Google
"flat Earth" and you'll find a lot of results too

~~~
nemo
I've investigated the evidence quite carefully. The article I linked to refers
to some very damning evidence for one case.

The Mueller investigation found solid evidence of WL forwarding DNC docs
collected by Russian intelligence, and at this point security researcher
expert consensus is that Russia was the perp and WL the front.

Wikileaks biases also show in who they target and what they ignore. They've
repeatedly downplayed leaks that are damaging to the Kremlin.

~~~
93po
There is zero evidence that the DNC docs were collected by Russian
intelligence other than a private firm that Hillary paid (huge conflict of
interest), and even then the "evidence" released was pathetic and about as
thoughtful as "well this guy that robbed the liquor store was driving a Toyota
so clearly he was Japanese".

There is no evidence Wikileaks has ignored anything out of bias. Please stop
spreading fake news.

~~~
nemo
Mueller's indictments list a stream of evidence from leased VPNs in the US
that the GRU was using with images from their servers made available to the
Feds. You've been lied to. There's copious, rock solid evidence. The single
piece counter-evidence (which fooled Binney) re transfer speeds/times was
later shown to have been faked and originated in Russia.

You're not familiar with it, but it is there. Also CrowdStrike was not the
only independent InfoSec firm involved in the analysis. The DCCC et al were
also hacked by the GRU. SecureWorks & others attributed those other attacks.
You should look into the real world information and expert opinion - you're
spreading Flat Earther-class propaganda mostly fed to you by an intelligence
agency.

------
Seenso
Honestly, stuff like this just debases the word "torture." Waterboarding is
clearly torture. Undergoing prolonged periods of solitary confinement while in
detention is arguably torture. However, choosing to avoid needed medical care
during an attempt to flee law enforcement is definitely in the "not torture"
category. It's self-inflicted harm.

Self-inflicted harm doesn't elicit the same kind of moral outrage that true
torture does. These efforts seem to me to be an attempt to exploit that moral
outrage in order to benefit a particular person. If successful, the lack of
clarity that introduces just creates extra doubt in cases of true torture that
blunts the outrage.

Here are some similar cases:

After conducting a bunch of bombings, Eric Rudolph fled the FBI by living in a
forest for years, feeding himself by gathering acorns and dumpster diving [1].
His choice to do that to himself is similar to what Assange did, and was not
torture, either.

Rudolph's brother, bizarrely, decided to _cut off his own hand with a saw_ to
protest the FBI's treatment of his brother and its surveillance of his family
[2]. If the FBI had done that to him, it'd have been a gruesome case of
torture, but since he did it to himself, it's definitely not torture.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Rudolph](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Rudolph)

[2] [http://www-
cgi.cnn.com/US/9803/09/briefs.pm/rudolph.amputati...](http://www-
cgi.cnn.com/US/9803/09/briefs.pm/rudolph.amputation/)

~~~
93po
The very real and substantial claims about torture and mostly about his time
in prison in the UK - not his time on the asylum, though I would still say
that his asylum treatment was inhumane and violated his rights.

~~~
Seenso
> The very real and substantial claims about torture and mostly about his time
> in prison in the UK - not his time on the asylum

Can you give details of the actual practices of torture alleged here? Scanning
this and a few other things, the only details I'm seeing are complaints of how
he was treated in the embassy (which IMHO were self-inflicted), and some
nonspecific observations that he looks like he's in worse health now that he's
actually gone to jail.

> I would still say that his asylum treatment was inhumane and violated his
> rights.

I can't see how that could be without essentially creating a lawless
situation, where law enforcement is bizarrely tasked with supporting fugitives
and assisting with their escape.

~~~
93po
Clearly I don't have a video of his time in prison. But countless doctors and
the UN specialist have witnessed, reported, and endorsed that he has been
tortured and I don't know what else you want.

~~~
Seenso
> But countless doctors and the UN specialist have witnessed, reported, and
> endorsed that he has been tortured and I don't know what else you want.

I don't think that's true. They don't say he was tortured, they say he
displays the _symptoms_ of psychological torture. From the OP:

On May 31, 2019, the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture, Nils Melzer, reported
on his May 9, 2019, visit to Assange in Belmarsh, accompanied by two medical
experts: “Mr Assange showed all symptoms typical for prolonged exposure to
psychological torture, including extreme stress, chronic anxiety and intense
psychological trauma.”

While I don't doubt those are symptoms of torture, they also seem nonspecific.
I'm sure spending 7 years on the lam as a fugitive could _also_ lead to
"extreme stress, chronic anxiety and intense psychological trauma," for
instance. I think that's even more likely since the visit by the Special
Rapporteur occurred about _1.5_ months after Assange's arrest, and there were
already reports that he was depressed and in poor health before his arrest.

To be tortured requires a torturer, and to say that Assange was tortured by
the UK for his time at the embassy requires bizarre conclusions such as:

1\. law enforcement is to support fugitives and assist with their escape
rather than trying to arrest them, or that

2\. torture is a normal and necessary activity of law enforcement (since
chasing a fugitive is torture and law enforcement is supposed to chase
fugitives).

Again, both of the above numbered statements are bizzare nonsense, but I think
they're implicit in the belief that Assange was tortured by the UK for his
stay in the embassy.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indictment_and_arrest_of_Julia...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indictment_and_arrest_of_Julian_Assange):
"After Assange's asylum was revoked, the Ambassador of Ecuador to the UK
invited the Metropolitan Police into the embassy on 11 April 2019. Following
this invitation, Assange was arrested and taken to a central London police
station."

------
fckuuumods
It's so awesome how moderators allow for a free and open discussion on HN

~~~
dang
Users flagged this post. Moderators didn't touch it, or even see it until now.

Given that there was a large Assange thread yesterday
([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22351183](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22351183)),
and a large thread on the Assange/torture question a few weeks ago
([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22201381](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22201381)),
I don't think this letter contains significant-enough new information to
support a solid HN discussion. This topic is divisive enough as it is, and in
the absence of significant new information, threads tend to degrade even
faster than usual.

------
MaupitiBlue
Man kills parents and begs for mercy because he’s an orphan.

~~~
lolc
Commenter on Hacker News sees nothing wrong in torture when it hits the ones
that had it coming.

~~~
vkou
How is he currently being tortured in prison?

TFA does not answer this question.

~~~
ge0rg
_It is our opinion that Mr Assange requires urgent expert medical assessment
of both his physical and psychological state of health. Any medical treatment
indicated should be administered in a properly equipped and expertly staffed
university teaching hospital (tertiary care). Were such urgent assessment and
treatment not to take place, we have real concerns, on the evidence currently
available, that Mr Assange could die in prison. The medical situation is
thereby urgent. There is no time to lose._

~~~
three_seagrass
It's based on observation in court only.

Also, Assange's health was in strong decline before he was released from the
Embassy, which could be a factor:
[https://medium.com/@doctors4assange/concerns-of-medical-
doct...](https://medium.com/@doctors4assange/concerns-of-medical-doctors-
about-the-plight-of-mr-julian-assange-ffb09a5dd588)

I'm not saying there _isn 't_ torture happening, just that there isn't much
evidence to the claim that he's being tortured right now.

------
DubiousPusher
Maybe this man's situation can call attention to the fact that this is the
standard of care for most people in jail or prison in America.

~~~
freeli
Except that he's being held in the UK, so I'm not sure what the point is of
your criticism of the US prison system.

~~~
DubiousPusher
My point is that a lot of U.S. citizens will be reading this and if they are
feeling a healthy dose is concern for Mr. Assange they should be aware that
his essentially the fate of many of their countrymen.

~~~
freeli
How is comparing what Assange is (reportedly) experiencing in a UK prison in
any way valid for criticizing the US prison system? I know we're supposed to
assume the least objectionable interpretation of someone's comments, but this
really sounds like a weird pivot designed to push some sort of anti-US agenda,
when there's NOTHING related to the conditions of the US prison system even
relevant to this particular discussion.

~~~
DubiousPusher
Health care during incarceration is a problem most places in the world. As far
as I can tell in the U.K. and Europe it is generally better. But what Mr.
Assange is experiencing in the U.K. is pretty comparable to the U.S. If
Americans are going to bother to fret over his situation you should probably
have a similar or greater level of concern for what is going on in your own
country which you actually have some hope changing. To have special concern
for this one person is just trading on fame, you might as well be following
tabloids.

------
geekpowa
“Mr Assange showed all __symptoms typical for __prolonged exposure to
psychological torture, including extreme stress, chronic anxiety and intense
psychological trauma.”

Emphasis mine. His terrible mental health condition is not under dispute. But
I am disputing the use of the word torture, as opposed to 'symptoms typical
for'.

Torture (noun): the action or practice of inflicting severe pain on someone as
a punishment or in order to force them to do or say something.

While he was in the embassy he was fugitive and definitely under duress to
turn himself in, no doubt. What rights and privileges is someone entitled to
as a fugitive in comparison to their rights and privileges once in custody? My
bias is anti Assange, for some common reasons some people are anti, I try to
keep an open mind and be a compassionate person and feel compassion for his
terrible mental health circumstances, yet articles like this, I read it with a
pile of skepticism and just feels weak, lacking in evidence, overstating
things and drawing inferences I think are poorly supported.

~~~
93po
It is very lacking in empathy to refer to him as a fugitive rather than
someone in asylum. Any fugitive status he may have had has been proven to be
political in nature.

~~~
geekpowa
"Any fugitive status he may have had has been proven to be political in
nature."

Proven you say?

Things asylum seekers typically say: "If Obama grants Manning clemency Assange
will agree to US extradition despite clear unconstitutionality of DoJ case"

~~~
93po
Yes, proven. I don't know what relevance your quote has.

------
jancsika
My uncle was a machinist in a large U.S. company back in the early 2000s when
the employees decided to end the torture and medical neglect of Julian
Assange.

According to him all it ended up doing was stifling innovation and rewarding
mediocre lifers over the high performing employees.

