
Putting Apple’s iMac Pro Through the Paces - jseliger
https://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/2018/01/06/putting-apples-imac-pro-through-the-paces/
======
sudhirj
It's interesting that development of the iMac Pro was already underway when
Apple and pro users (mostly developers) had that big showdown after the touch
bar came out. The touch bar seemed like the final slap in the face to the pro
crowd, but this was already in the works then.

Every pro review I've seen so far has been that's it's excellent - not because
they're fawning over this or that, but just that's it's a solid option with a
great screen at what's actually a reasonable price for the components inside.
If you think the price is unreasonable, you're probably not the sales target
for this machine - the ones who really need this, like in the case of this
reviewer, are buying three at a time - just because.

It's interesting because upgradability doesn't seem like a very big concern to
anyone buying this - they're happy with that they're getting at the price
they're paying. It almost seems like Apple needn't have promised everyone a
new modular Mac Pro. If they'd just announced / launched this machine
alongside the pointless MacBook Pro update, everyone would have been happy and
with no accusations of taking the name of the Pro in vain.

~~~
DRW_
I'm not so sure the reviews would have been _quite_ so positive if they hadn't
also announced they're releasing a 'modular' traditional Mac Pro.

I think the knowledge that a new 'modular' Mac Pro is coming gives a different
context to this machine. I think people are framing this on the idea that: if
you want a quiet, good looking machine with a great screen and the other
'benefits' of an all in one (and don't mind the trade offs), then it's good to
have this option. If the trade offs don't work for you, then wait for the more
traditional Mac Pro.

If it had been released without any mention of another option coming for pro
users, then it would have been framed as "if you need workstation grade
hardware running mac os, then your only choice is now an expensive, non-
upgradeable all-in-one which has traded off performance for quietness and for
other thermal constraints".

~~~
qubex
I'm definitely in the category you describe: owing to ancient personal
prejudices, I consider the idea of having one's computer integrated with the
screen to be an utter abomination. I have trouble suffering the trend towards
laptops and notebooks precisely for this reason, let alone the rise of the
integrated all-in-one.

Knowledge of the coming Mac Pro allows me to view this device with levity
because I can view it as a herald of things to come in a more satisfying
format; had I not known of the ‘imminent’ (end of 2018 or beginning of 2019)
Mac Pro, I would have been utterly aghast at the idea of Apple pushing me
towards the integrated solution.

I tend to cram my computers with cards (not graphics cards, but things like
SDRs and FPGAs) but what really does it for me is having the monitor built-in:
I'm used to multiple monitor desktops, and I like both screens to be
absolutely identical make and model. That clearly isn't possible when you have
an all-in-one computer with no available ‘identical’ screen.

Also, my computer belongs beneath my desk, and my monitors on top of it. It's
just the preordained way. All else is heresy. ;)

~~~
lisper
Also, computers and monitors have vastly different life cycles; the former
become obsolete much faster than the latter. Binding them together physically
forces you to replace one or the other either too soon or too late for
absolutely no benefit.

~~~
madeofpalk
At least the displays Apple ships are very _very_ good. Best in the industry.

~~~
lisper
I agree. I was the very happy owner of an Apple Cinema Display that served me
well for many, many years, and was still in perfect working order when I had
to abandon it in favor of an ASUS display because I needed more resolution and
Apple wasn't selling standalone displays any more :-(

I want to be an Apple fan. I really do. But they are making it impossible for
me nowadays.

~~~
lispm
Apple has mentioned that the next Mac Pro will also have a matching display.

I'm fine with a typical 4k display (or better). The panels of the better ones
seem to come from LG anyway and are widely available on the market. I wonder
if Apple would be selling a good quality 5k monitor with TB3, or if they go
for a high-end 8k screen. Personally I'm not in the business for the highest
end. LG has announced a bunch of TB3 screens, where the 4k 32" version would
be sufficient for me. But LG lately has problems bringing their better screens
in enough quantities to the market. Last years 32" 4k screen is still not
widely available here in Germany.

------
poink
> Secondly, you get a wireless mouse and extended keyboard. Both have to be
> plugged in to charge. In the case of the mouse, the cable plugs in at the
> bottom, rendering it useless during charging. Truly a bad design.

The Magic Mouse 2 is one of the worst mice I've ever used, but the charging
thing is a non-issue. The battery lasts like a month on one charge. Mine has
never gone below 50%.

~~~
danieldk
_The Magic Mouse 2 is one of the worst mice I 've ever used, but the charging
thing is a non-issue. The battery lasts like a month on one charge. Mine has
never gone below 50%._

This would be terrible for me, my battery always dies in the middle of the
day, because I do not want to keep track of charging. Luckily, the Magic
Trackpad 2 does not have this shortcoming and can be used with a lightning
cable attached.

(I absolutely love the Magic Trackpad 2. Not just because it is large, but
some applications use haptic feedback. E.g. OmniGraffle uses a subtle
vibration so that you feel when two objects are aligned.)

~~~
cmelbye
You get nine hours of battery life from two minutes of charging for Magic
Mouse 2. It's really not an issue.

~~~
chrisper
Why does the magic mouse have fast charging but iPhones don't?

~~~
sitharus
iPhones do have fast charging, see Power and Battery on
[https://www.apple.com/iphone-8/specs/](https://www.apple.com/iphone-8/specs/)

Also a magic mouse has much lower power drain, so the same amount of charge
lasts much longer on the mouse.

------
duncan_bayne
People wondering about the unit construction, lack of upgradability, etc. may
be interested to know that the "sealed box appliance" mentality has been in
Apple's DNA since the design of the _first_ Macintosh:

[https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Diagnostic_Port....](https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Diagnostic_Port.txt)

"Apple's other co-founder, Steve Jobs, didn't agree with Jef about many
things, but they both felt the same way about hardware expandability: it was a
bug instead of a feature. Steve was reportedly against having slots in the
Apple II back in the days of yore, and felt even stronger about slots for the
Mac. He decreed that the Macintosh would remain perpetually bereft of slots,
enclosed in a tightly sealed case, with only the limited expandability of the
two serial ports."

------
bonestamp2
In defending their choice of macs, a decision that will likely come under fire
no matter what, the author didn't even mention lower maintenance costs, which
can mean more profit for the business if a machine would have been down
otherwise. I suppose "solid and robust" would be the trait that leads to
higher reliability. My boss personally hates macs, but he recently switched
the entire office to macs because our IT service company's monthly maintenance
fee is half price for macs.

~~~
jjoonathan
Also, cheap parts and good youtube tutorials are more readily available for
mac if you want to DIY.

~~~
walshemj
I have looked at the diy tutorials for the later macs the ones that are made
hard for end users to maintain - and they make installing custom cooling loops
with hard tubing look simple.

~~~
jjoonathan
There's no comparison to desktop PCs which, as you point out, are as simple as
lego to build/fix and have part availability that puts lego itself to shame. I
was really thinking more about laptops, where the need to peel/replace some
glue is nothing next to the availability of parts.

~~~
jdietrich
Most enterprise laptops are vastly easier to fix than Apple hardware. The
manufacturers of these machines have thought carefully about repairability and
designed it in from the start.

For example, the Lenovo X270 opens with eight Philips screws. Once you're
inside, you'll find an array of standard parts in standard sockets. Lenovo
provide a detailed service manual and will sell you anything from a
replacement fan to a new LCD from stock. The logic board isn't caked in BGA
underfill and has a sensible level of density, so component-level repairs are
vastly easier and less time-consuming.

~~~
jjoonathan
It's good to hear that Lenovo treats you better than Dell treated me. Is this
their policy in general or do you have to buy a megabuck enterprise service
contract (i.e. the one bonestamp2 identified as not competitive)?

~~~
jdietrich
Completely standard across the Think* line. Service manuals and diagnostic
software is available to download directly - you don't even have to log in.
You can buy all parts directly from Lenovo or from a distributor without a
service contract and regardless of warranty status. Opening the chassis
doesn't automatically void your warranty and the terms specifically state
which parts you're allowed to replace yourself.

The standard US warranty on ThinkPads is one year RTB, but you can upgrade to
three years RTB for $99 or three years onsite for $159. International warranty
coverage is an extra $10. The standard warranty in Europe is three years
onsite. For minor faults, you can usually ask for replacement parts to be
shipped for self-installation.

------
imagetic
I'm happy to see something with professional specs coming from Apple. I have
serious concerns with the iMac Pro in terms of heat while rendering for many
days of the year.

The Mac Pro trash can is notorious for overheating, so I'm not sad to see it
go and I look forward to a new Mac Pro in 2018. The market for that unit will
pay a premium for serviceability as well. I'm expecting a heavy price tag.

It's nice to see a real world example of the iMac Pro in use. I do a lot of
sustained renders for TV and feature length content. Our PCs run laps around
our trash cans, but a mixed environment is far from ideal. We spend more time
troubleshooting with editors than anything.

I have more concerns about macOS High Sierra than anything at this point
though. I've upgraded a few machines and we're seeing more crashes than ever.
Sierra might have to be my staple for a long while.

------
phillco
> At the distance that the editors sit from a 27” display, there is simply
> little or no difference between the look of the 27” LED display and the 27”
> iMac Retina screens.

Eh?

~~~
GuiA
The author seems to be well in his middle age, and wears glasses. His visual
acuity might make his subjective experience irrelevant on that specific point.

I can tell the difference between retina and non retina 27” on a desk (but I
have 20/10 vision, which makes my subjective experience irrelevant for most
people too)

~~~
matwood
Yeah, I can also absolutely tell the difference and have a hard time using any
non-retina monitor now.

------
mattbierner
Even if you never upgrade the machine during its lifetime, you still have to
pay Apple’s notoriously high ram and hard drive upgrade costs.

Example: when I bought a new iMac last year, Apple was charging $1400 for 64GB
of ram. That’s insane, so I went with the base and purchased my own. Took five
minutes to install and saved around $800 if I recall

~~~
danieldk
A large organization might not really care about dropping $1400 on 64GB of RAM
if required when your employees cost $100,000 per year.

~~~
walshemj
Never met a large organisation where purchasing cheaper OEM parts wasn't liked
by the CFO

------
walshemj
Would have been interesting to see the same benchmarks on similarly priced
Threadripper workstation.

------
malchow
I read in one review that, in addition to the non-upgradeability of the new
iMac Pro, there is one real coup de grace: the beautiful integrated screen is
not capable of being used as an external display for any future computer.

If true, doesn't this strike you all as truly unnecessarily egregious? Why
should an iMac Pro stuffed full of chemicals to show beautiful 5K images,
never be capable of being used as just a display? Is there a good reason Apple
customers have to buy brand new displays?

This is worth asking because, unlike the components in the new machine, the
display will probably be state of the art for a while.

~~~
prawn
Isn't this already true of recent iMacs? I don't think you have been able to
use them as dumb displays for at least 1-2 generations?

~~~
malchow
I think you're right. But just as insane in that situation. Think of the work
necessary to prevent that screen from ever being used to display a nasty video
signal from –– gasp! –– another computer. It's just such an insult to
customers. Am I crazy here? And isn't Apple supposed to be a company of
environmentalists?

~~~
userbinator
_Think of the work necessary to prevent that screen from ever being used to
display a nasty video signal from –– gasp! –– another computer. It 's just
such an insult to customers._

They just didn't bother adding the circuitry for "video in", due to cost;
there is no active opposition here.

For many years now, you can buy "LVDS converter" boards[1] which will let you
use any display panel as a monitor. I'm sure demand will mean such boards
appear for the iMac Pro displays soon, if the existing ones aren't already
compatible. I haven't looked too closely at this but the display might even be
eDP or similar, which means only a physical converter is necessary if you want
to connect a DP output to it. That's been done with iPad displays before[2]

[1] [http://www.ebay.com/bhp/lvds-hdmi](http://www.ebay.com/bhp/lvds-hdmi)

[2] [https://hackaday.com/2013/04/22/connect-a-retina-display-
to-...](https://hackaday.com/2013/04/22/connect-a-retina-display-to-a-regular-
computer/)

------
revelation
_In my next test, I took a 4½-minute-long 1080p ProRes file and rendered it to
a 4K /UHD (3840×2160) H.264 (1-pass CBR 20Mbps) file._

So this is why those media pros need that computing power and resolution..

~~~
burntwater
For projection mapping, my large, well-known theater uses a 14,000x14,000
pixel canvas. Every frame is a little over 500MB.

~~~
pvdebbe
Those sizes surely warrant a small render farm and not just beefed-up
workstations?

------
walterbell
Can iMac be used as an external monitor for a Macbook?

~~~
milankragujevic
No, retina iMac models don't support target display mode anymore. You can get
a pretty expensive Dell 5K display and use that with a Macbook...

~~~
JimDabell
MacBooks don't support 5K resolutions, so it would be a bit wasteful to buy a
5K monitor for one. Are you sure you're not confusing it with the MacBook Pro?

~~~
milankragujevic
I was using the term "MacBook" to mean a generic Apple laptop, not the 12"
Retina MacBook with Core M processor.

------
nickpeterson
I want to see an apple designed chip running full out (no real thermal
restrictions like in iPads/iPhone/Apple TV). Those chips already compare
pretty favorably to Intel, and running at 3+GHz would likely have great single
threaded performance.

I actually believe we're going to see MacOS for arm and a mac mini running an
arm chip, it makes too much sense for Apple not to do it.

~~~
JohnBooty
I know what you mean, but I'm not sure that's the way forward.

My understanding is that when you start really cranking up CPU speed -- let's
say, with an imaginary 3.5ghz version of whatever their latest iPad Pro CPU is
-- now you're just spending all your time waiting for RAM. So you need fancier
and fancier speculative execution hardware in order for the CPU to have
something, anything to do. You get into that game, and you wind up with as
many transistors on a chip as Intel and AMD, hitting the same performance
walls as Intel and AMD have been hitting for a long time.

What Apple _could_ do is just go super wide, of course. Instead of bumping up
the clock speed, they could cram 16 of those iPad Pro cores into a Macbook or
whatever. Which would be fun, but for most workloads, those cores will just be
idle most of the time.

------
nottorp
> The AME version kicked in the fans on the iMac.

Interesting... so they're noticeable.

Anyone around who has (access to) an iMac Pro and can comment on the fan
noise?

~~~
macintux
I noticed that too, but the author said iMac, not the iMac Pro.

~~~
nottorp
Ah you're right. Wasn't the Pro. But my question still stands.

------
microcolonel
> _But is this really an issue? I’m sure Apple has user research numbers to
> justify their decisions._

They also have a direct incentive not to make user memory upgrades an option.
It's a bit too charitable to think they're not supporting it because they
somehow know nobody would want to do it anyway.

------
Apocryphon
Ultimately, isn't the iMac Pro just a stopgap pro because the true upgraded
desktop is coming out this year?

~~~
macintux
Plenty of people will be happy with the iMac Pro. If the number of people
who'll pay $5k for a computer that will be much less useful in 3 years is
relatively constrained, the number who'll pay $5k for a computer they expect
to treat as a stopgap for a few months is miniscule.

There's no indication that Apple thinks it's a one-off: there's a lot of
custom engineering in there.

------
amelius
Does it have an Intel processor?

~~~
yoz-y
Yes. Intel Xeon. All of the benchmarks use the os already updated for meltdown
too.

------
mailslot
"...there is simply little or no difference between the look of the 27” LED
display and the 27” iMac Retina screens."

I feel sorry for the author, because your eyes have to be shit to come to come
to this conclusion. If I remove my contact lenses, then yes, there is no
difference.

I'm sure the difference in color gamut is no big deal to someone with
colorblindness either.

~~~
sudhirj
Think the author is just saying that editors sit past the Retina boundary on
for the 27" LED. Have added another comment above with links.

