
Ask HN: Does this kind of arrogance get job applications? - redguava
I just saw this job ad posted on Hacker News:<p>http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3346308<p>It comes across very arrogant to me, including this statement "VC funded yadayada".  Working at a company is a big commitment for a person, it's where they are going to spend the majority of their waking life.  Doesn't this deserve a bit more respect from employers?  I don't care how fast the growth or how cool they believe themselves to be, it's an attitude that turns me off immediately.  I am sure it's not doing them any favors.  Does this job ad entice you to apply?
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alexwolfe
I think most would view this as some kind of joke or scam. Knowing that anyone
can create a line graph and a gmail account I would have no reason at all to
think this is a real company.

Anyone growing that fast shouldn't be afraid to post a real email address,
just doesn't add up for me.

If this is some kind of style or joke I think it is better served to save that
for when your having coffee. As laid back as our industry is, most would like
to consider themselves professionals. This job posting doesn't seem very
professional on any level.

~~~
mjdwitt
Considering that the only companies allowed to post job ads here are YC
alumni, you can trust that they are a real company. If I saw an ad like that
posted anywhere else, however, I'd have the same reaction.

Doubts of their existence aside, I still agree with the OP; ads like this make
me think that I'd hate working for the founder posting them. If he wants me to
try to prove my worth as a candidate, I want to know that its even worth my
time to send him a portfolio/resume/cover letter.

~~~
alexwolfe
I didn't know that only YC Alumni can post jobs and I'm guessing I'm not the
only one, thanks for pointing that out.

I think we both agree this job posting is not very appealing especially
considering the amount of positions currently available for developers. Most
good developers I know do just as much if not more screening than the
companies hiring them. I know a number of companies in need of good developers
that have great working environments. I think its important for people hiring
to be respectful and kind if they are serious about attracting good talent.

~~~
mjdwitt
Indeed. I myself only put faith in the personality of a company if I know and
trust somebody who works there (or in the case of larger ones, in the
department of interest.)

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waxman
It's essential that startup teams have great chemistry.

If you don't appreciate their sense of humor (or vice versa), it's probably
not a good fit. That's fine.

It's better to establish these things sooner versus later in the interview
process, so you're not wasting each other's time.

To this end, I think it's productive when startups post job listings like this
that genuinely reflect their culture and personality. It can serve as the
first of several mutual filters to weed out potential candidates who wouldn't
work well with the team.

~~~
redguava
I agree with your sentiment, but I just don't see how this particular ad would
make anyone say "Yes! That's the company culture for me".

I guess that's what I am asking here though... does it inspire you to apply
(or would it if you were looking)?

~~~
apsurd
the post didn't bother me at all so I guess it's just a personal taste kinda
thing.

To me I like that they got straight to the point. They are basically saying
"we are worth betting your time on because ..." they are growing really fast
and what not. I think it's refreshing actually.

Now on the the other hand I am extremely annoyed by posts that use marketing
speak and _overly-memetic_ prose. It's like they are trying really really
really really hard to be hip, cool, and funny all at the same time.

This post comes off as straight to the point. The yadada thing is not big deal
to me because I take it like: "we will cover all that stuff later... if you
are interested"

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danilocampos
I don't see the arrogance, and I'm very sensitive to douchespeak.

Here I read a posting by a person who's confident in their company's
direction, knows what they're looking for, and assumes the potential hire
knows the drill after reading a bunch of these job ads after awhile. They're
also pretty clear on what the product is and why a given engineer might enjoy
working on it.

This was nice, too, as flexibility is anything but arrogant: "Preferably NYC,
but we’re flexible."

Arrogance would be "we're in NYC. If you're not, don't bother writing." Or
some such.

Dunno, man, with the clarity of language and the refreshing brevity, this is
one of the better specimens, to my mind.

~~~
alexwolfe
I don't think what they are saying is arrogant but it is not very
professional.

They offer no name and a graph that you are supposed to take on good faith. In
return they expect you to write them (what most would) a cover letter,
including probably a resume, and a project you've built in rails that you are
proud of.

This is a tremendous amount of information and a effort to expect when they
have given very little. By contrast they cannot provide a company name, a
legitimate email address, or information on who is running the company.

Granted the graph may be impressive but what about the company culture,
location, work space, size, etc? Those seem like more important things to talk
about for someone planning to commit the next year or two of their lives to a
job.

~~~
danilocampos
Maybe they're in stealth. That limits how much of the kimono they're willing
to open. Or maybe they're in the open but they want to brag about the traffic
graph without having to spoil some press they're saving for later. (Though
anyone who pays even a little attention around here would probably find it
easy to suss out who these guys are. I have a good hunch.)

I don't think it would be out of line to offer an equally pithy summary of
one's work experience, along with a resume, and let the conversation go from
there. They're signaling that they're not stuffy suits – I don't think the
expectation is for an applicant to respond to the ad like they would a job at
IBM.

As to professionalism, eh, screw it. I'm exhausted with corporate bullshit and
I know I hate when scrappy companies try to emulate it. They're "keeping it
real," as the kids say, and that's a lot more pleasant to me than the stiff,
stuffy, dull alternatives.

~~~
alexwolfe
Actually I don't know if they are keeping it real, you don't know unless you
meet them. I'm not a fan of stuffy corporate bs either, I've never met anyone
who loves that.

I think being thoughtful, informative, and respectful doesn't have anything to
do with corporate bs. I've worked at many companies with great cultures that
don't need to write questionable job postings to keep it real.

Being professional and being stuffy are two very different things. I know a
whole industry of professionals I'd love to work with or have a beer with
anytime.

~~~
billpatrianakos
Yeah, seriously. You don't have to use cool-speak to keep it real. It doesn't
matter how big or small you are, sincerity always shines through.

As to the original comment, I think this may swing either way. This could
either be the real deal, hot tech startup or it could be some assholes who are
totally overcompensating with all the secrecy and trying to play it super
hipster. I see where you might get arrogance from it. I didn't think of that
first though. Considering we're on HN here and since the site has an
outstanding reputation for keeping most riff raff out, I just assumed it was a
hot-next-big-thing startup looking for employees.

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astrec
No, it doesn't entice me to apply. Intentional or otherwise, I think that's a
good thing for both parties.

The ad is a window into the soul of their company, unfortunate perhaps, but
hardly arrogant.

~~~
syaz1
I find this very profound.

~~~
syaz1
Not sure why I was downvoted. I meant to say I found GP's post to be profound:

    
    
        The ad is a window into the soul of their company, unfortunate perhaps, but hardly arrogant.

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mikeleeorg
I didn't find it that arrogant, but I think it's possible to get a glimpse of
a company's culture through their job ad. If you felt their approach was a
turn-off, it's likely you'd feel the same way about their culture & team as
well.

So for better or worse (they could argue better, you could argue worse), their
job ad is filtering for people that would fit them.

------
dangrossman
From the numerous hints in the ad, I'm betting this was posted by Rap Genius.

<http://rapgenius.com/>

------
Mz
_It comes across very arrogant to me, including this statement "VC funded
yadayada"._

Given that other people here are saying that only YC funded companies can post
a job ad here, maybe it's a "yeah, you knew that already, let's not waste any
more time on that stuff" type sentiment. Of course, there are other people
saying they didn't know that, so perhaps the main sin they are committing is
assuming that the audience is as "in the know" as they are -- ie they are
assuming everyone on HN is as aware as they are of how all this ties back to
YC, only that's not an accurate assumption.

It's often really tough to figure out how to make sure you are including
enough information to inform your audience without including so much as to
insult their intelligence. This becomes more complicated as audience size and
diversity grows and HN is quite heavily trafficked these days. Perhaps it is
better for this company to write the ad so as to not insult the intelligence
of the more in-the-know types who realize the ads here are only from YC funded
companies than to over-explain. It may be better to offend and alienate the
relatively "clueless" than to insult the intelligence of the types of people
they hope will actually apply. I mean if someone not in the know concludes
they are arrogant pricks and "I wouldn't want to work there", hey, probably no
loss. It might even be saving them wasted time (by reducing the number of
applications from clueless people). But talking to the highly qualified like
they are uninformed 5 year olds who need everything explained, well, there
goes your best potential candidates. Good luck filling it now.

~~~
redguava
I think it would be naive to assume "person that knows all about hacker news"
= "great candidate". It could be argued spending too much time on hacker news
is not what you want in your employees.

Back to the main point, the real issue I have is they are too busy to write an
informative job post actually encouraging people to apply, to me that isn't
respectful of your audience. They wan't someone to join and be a part of their
team, do they really want to start the conversation like this.

~~~
Mz
_It could be argued spending too much time on hacker news is not what you want
in your employees._

That doesn't really make sense to me, personally. Check the leader board.
Almost everyone on it appears to be an extremely competent hacker. (Though I
think at least one is an extremely competent lawyer.)

I personally generally hate job listings. I think they all make little sense.
I work for a large company and I find the job postings there completely
unfathomable. It's one of the reasons I am still stuck in an entry level job:
The job board at the company I actually work for is almost completely
illegible to me. The last job I applied for I only applied because a senior
manager clued me it was a job on her team and encouraged me to apply. I didn't
get it but I at least had some fucking clue where it was, who it was with and
what it entailed, information I cannot ferret out from the official postings.
(Note: I still didn't know what it _paid_ , information I would have liked to
have.)

I think most job postings completely suck. Is this worse suckitude? I don't
really know. I just don't think there is any reason to conclude that it sucks
"because they are arrogant".

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jmitcheson
These jobs ads are probably written by co/founders who are still in 'pitch
mode'. They've internalized introducing their company in terms of line charts
and hyperbole. Give them a break :)

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moocow01
I'll agree that most job postings make me puke a little bit and are typically
very poorly done across the industry. This certainly isn't all that great but
it gets much much worse. One of my favorites was a job posting that started
off bragging about what kind of cars everyone drives on the team. It literally
had a long paragraph listing the types of cars everyone on the team drove
(BMW, etc., etc.) before any of the job requirements. I personally would be
more enticed by an ad that says everyone is required to roller blade to work.

------
MichaelApproved
Clickable link to job post in question
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3346308>

------
whalesalad
Other job postings for the same company:

~160 days ago: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2736780>

~130 days ago: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2863043>

My gut keeps telling me it's turntable.fm

~~~
klochner
turntable isn't a ycombinator company

~~~
mjdwitt
Timothee has an interesting theory about that:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3346641>

------
meric
Not a "Rails Genius". If I was interested in such a job I would send
"something you’ve built in Rails and any other work you’re proud of", but not
spend a lot of time on it.

------
overcyn
What company is this? I cant seem to find it.

~~~
mjdwitt
That seems to be the point. I'm guessing they're trying to be "stealth."

~~~
Timothee
But if they're that big and growing that much, they can't be that stealth…

Unless the "stealth" part is the fact that they're a YC company. By that I
mean that it could be a company/product that is well known but it's unknown
that the company joined YC last summer. Though I'm not sure if a secret like
that could be kept easily… (e.g. TurnTable.fm could fit the bill of some of
the details: NY, music-based, Facebook API, game dynamics, crowdsourced
content, VC-funded… but they're not part of YC AFAICT)

Another example is COLOURLovers which was big long before joining YCombinator.
(so much so that I was _very_ surprised that they did)

NB: if it turns out, I'm right about TurnTable.fm, remember that you've read
it here first :)

~~~
dangrossman
I'm 99% sure it's Rap Genius now. That same dropbox ID appears on an old
Facebook post by their account. They're YC S11.

~~~
parsnips
I know the Rap Genius guys... They are "confident" in a very frat-house east
coast way, so I concur :)

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gsivil
Hacking challenge: can somebody use google correlate and find the company
unambiguously?

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jabo
I think we should have comment threads enabled on job posts on HN!

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skurry
Sounds like it was written by someone in a hurry. Or maybe by someone who had
made the observation that the time invested in crafting a thorough job posting
does not correlate significantly with the quality of applicants to said ad? In
any case, I didn't strike me as that arrogant.

