
The Fighter - JumpCrisscross
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/28/magazine/afghanistan-soldier-ptsd-the-fighter.html
======
AndrewKemendo
As an Iraq War veteran myself I'm pretty sick of these stories being what get
headlines and pages of coverage about military members. People read these
pieces and think it defines an entire generation of War Veterans. It doesn't.
No hit on the authors, they all seem to be genuinely wanting to help/tell a
compelling story - but I think it comes with some kind of fetish for war that
they are trying to get in touch with. How about instead we talk about War Vets
who are successful (or on their way)?

Here are a few of my personal friends:

Abraham Kamarck and Kevin Powell Army and Navy Vets. Founders True Made Foods:

[http://www.forbes.com/sites/robindschatz/2016/04/20/mission-...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/robindschatz/2016/04/20/mission-
accomplished-how-two-ketchup-vetpreneurs-draw-strength-from-their-
differences/#65963a00552a)

Kim Jung and Emily Miller. Army Vets. Founders, Rumi Spice:

[http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/11/business/smallbusiness/a-s...](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/11/business/smallbusiness/a-start-
up-turns-to-saffron-to-help-afghanistan-regrow.html)

Mike Janke. Navy Vet (SEAL). Founder Silent Circle:

[http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2012/1...](http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2012/10/silent_circle_mike_janke_s_iphone_app_makes_encryption_easy_governments.html)

...and there are thousands starting and running their own businesses,
charities, churches, schools, working at googamafacesoft etc...none of them
looking for special treatment or special recognition. It's a part of our story
that most of us are proud of, but it's not everything.

We take care of our own as best we can, and people fall through the cracks.
The issues with the care system for vets isn't perfect, but it also takes
effort on the part of those who need help, and those who aren't willing to
help themselves and take advantage of those programs are the ones you hear
about.

So lets stop treating our vets like they need special treatment - good or bad.

~~~
ryanmarsh
> We take care of our own as best we can, and people fall through the cracks

This statement disgusts me. I struggled immensely transitioning from combat to
civilian life. Nobody helped until years later I got lucky and someone
referred me to a preacher who was also a therapist. The VA threw pills at
myself and my brothers. Some of them are dead now. Some took their own lives
on purpose, others on accident living dangerously. Some have spent time in
prison for turning violent. I count myself incredibly lucky that I didn't kill
anyone and wind up in prison.

I'm so upset by your comment. It's so wrong. Killing people, getting killed,
being constantly in threat of mortal danger, these things break our brains. We
do not take care of our own the best we can. We do a shit job of it IMO.

~~~
dumb-saint
With no lack of empathy for the veterans (of all countries) and the horrible
things they go through...

Don't you guys ask yourself how come you are always at war? Why you have
"generations of veterans", even though you have by far the most powerful
military force to ever have existed?

There is no credible conventional threat to the US, and there is no
unconventional one that can be mitigated by fighting a war.

Not participating in unnecessary wars would help the mental health of soldiers
much more than therapy or whatever else.

~~~
13of40
> Don't you guys ask yourself how come you are always at war?

Actually, I'm a veteran, son of a veteran, son of a son of a veteran, and we
all served in between wars, so we're not exactly "always at war".

But all bullshit aside, why would you lay that kind of blame on the people who
rolled the dice (choosing between enlisting and working at DQ to pay off their
double-wide) and now have to go out and do the job, versus the people who are
making a profit every time we shoot off a $200K TOW round? There are, like,
half a dozen people in the Army who could raise their hand and say "let's have
a war" and have it actually mean anything, but you're asking veterans why they
fight wars.

~~~
dumb-saint
Oh, I think you misunderstood me. I don't blame the people who enlist at all.
I also point my finger at the profit-makers.

When I say "you guys" I mean "Americans". All of you.

PS: What a weird thing to down vote this post -- it simply clarifies my
initial message.

~~~
sjg007
It is the President who declares war... one guy for better or worse.

~~~
sigzero
No, in the United States, Congress declares war (a bunch of guys).

~~~
lawpoop
Since the War Powers Act, it's basically been the president who makes war.
Congressional declarations are a formality. Many of the events that we think
of as wars are "military actions"\-- Korean "War", Vietnam "War", First Iraq
"war", second Iraq "war", Afghanistan "war", Kosovo, Libya, etc

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war_by_the_Unit...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war_by_the_United_States#Military_engagements_authorized_by_Congress)

------
taurath
We just don't have many institutions left in the us to care for people after
trauma, and the few we have are as impersonal as possible. It's hard to come
back to ones family after seeing terrible things. Honestly I can't help but
feel that the lack of community in modern life tends to exacerbate all these
problems. If you don't know your neighbors there can be little to latch onto
other than places and things. The image from the Hurt Locker of the guy
meandering through the grocery store comes to mind. What is all this excess
for, when there's such suffering happening in the world?

~~~
ryanmarsh
> We just don't have many institutions left in the us to care for people after
> trauma

Did we ever? I don't recall my grandfather getting much help (with what we
would now call PTSD) from the community or otherwise.

~~~
specialist
As I understand it, likelihood of trauma (PTSD) rises sharply with time spent
in actual combat. During WWII, even places like Battle of the Bulge, infantry
were on the front lines a few weeks. That amount has gone up steadily with
Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and so forth.

~~~
ryanmarsh
He was OSS and airborne. Saw several different theaters.

------
clumsysmurf
A recent book that explores the loss of community when combat veterans come
home, and how this may contribute to PTSD:

"Tribe: On Homecoming and Belonging"

[https://www.amazon.com/Tribe-Homecoming-Belonging-
Sebastian-...](https://www.amazon.com/Tribe-Homecoming-Belonging-Sebastian-
Junger/dp/1455566381)

------
ChrisNorstrom
We hear a lot about Post Traumatic Stress Disorder from the point of view of
the soldiers but I feel we're not seeing the full picture nor hearing the full
story. What about soldiers, and civilians, and even the opposition? Is there
any research or information for the following:

\- Do men or women suffer more from PTSD?

\- Which ages suffer from PTSD?

\- Which groups are more likely to have PTSD: the soldiers (us), the civilians
(them), or the opposition (them)?

\- Do people in 3rd world countries suffer from PTSD less than those in 1st
world countries or the other way around?

\- Do civilians suffer from PTSD more when they are invaded by soldiers of a
different racial/ethnic/religious group than their own, or when invaded by
soldiers from the same racial/ethnic/religious group as their own?

~~~
danso
We're not hearing the full story because the data collection for such research
is inherently costly and problematic. As evidenced by the OP, we don't even
have a full picture of PTSD among our own troops, nor even the VA resources to
take care of the diagnosed veterans. On the opposing side, we don't even have
an accurate accounting for those actually _killed_ , nevermind the mental
state of those who have survived.

~~~
ryanmarsh
There's a good book comprising all of the gov't data on how veterans faired
after WWII. They did collect a lot of data and I found their insights
surprising and relevant to me. I apologize I cannot remember the books title.
I happened across it in a library I can't visit anymore.

~~~
omegant
"On killing"?

~~~
ryanmarsh
No it had a much more formal sounding title and was published by the VA or
DOD. It was mostly data tables and charts.

------
sandworm101
The armed forces, of many countries, really have to address their drinking
culture. Whatever challenge life throws at you after your service, alcohol
doesn't help. I read story after story about former soldiers coming home with
problems. They are always exacerbated by alcohol. It's right there in the
first sentence of the OP.

I've got family in three different armed forces, and a couple clients. Too
many of their anecdotes begin with drinking. Some of it is certainly them
self-medicating, but much of it is also boredom. Lots of soldiers just aren't
happy with their daily routines. I remember chatting with a kid in the US navy
on his way to Japan (connecting flight through seattle). What he was most
excited about was the lower drinking age. He had his first weekend all planned
out ... complete with pics of bars emailed by buddies. I wasn't going to
lecture the kid. A new job in a new country and that's all you are happy
about? (I wont say what the kid was tasked with as he likely divulged more
than he should.)

------
benmarks
My wife and I have done what we can to be there for the Army National Guard
member who introduced us - then went to Afghanistan and lost people under his
command in an IED attack & firefight. The man who came home is different, but
faring better than most.

------
andrewvijay
Incredible amount of respect for the author for such a huge high quality
article! Cannot imagine the amount of hard work that must have been put into
writing it.

------
vinhboy
I wonder if the shock of going from a first world country to a third world
country contributes to these problems.

Imagine for a second you're a white male growing up in rural America. Your
first experience with the rest of world is a Iraq...

It must be traumatizing.

~~~
3131s
What would be traumatizing is blowing out a six year old's brains in your
first firefight, which the article mentions was the case for Sam Siatta's
squadron. I hardly think going to a poor country in itself is the main source
of trauma for veterans. It's the violence that happens there and the later
realization of the utter futility of the whole thing, the realization that you
were used as a pawn for the benefit of weapons manufacturers and imperialistic
geopolitical maneuvering.

~~~
ryanmarsh
Forget the politics. Just seeing that shit happen fucks with you.

------
EliRivers
The after effects of the monumentally fucked-up childish decisions, over the
last 15 or so years, to engage in wars and contested occupations (although
thankfully that's something we seem to have grown out of) are going to run and
run.

I sometimes look at the current batch of world leaders (and aspiring upcomers)
and wonder which of them need pushing under a bus now to stop this happening
again. It's so hard to tell. Perhaps some big-data startup could get into it
and actually make the world a better place.

~~~
stonogo
Are you being ironic, or are you actually calling for deposing of world
leaders by force in the name of peace?

You see how this could confuse people who are reading this post, right?

~~~
EliRivers
_Are you being ironic, or are you actually calling for deposing of world
leaders by force in the name of peace?_

Here's your irony; deposing of world leaders by force in the name of peace is
exactly the practice of the US, the UK and other such nations that causes so
much trouble. Although it does seem to be less fashionable than it was; I
suppose even our system can't spin away the colossal failures. I remember when
Iraq was going to be a western liberal democracy in a year.

