
Coda 2.5 and the Mac App Store - alexbilbie
http://www.panic.com/blog/coda-2-5-and-the-mac-app-store/
======
jimmcslim
It strike me as a bit punitive that only Mac App Store applications are
permitted to access iCloud and is probably a barrier to further adoption of
iCloud by developers; particularly in light of the fact that there are certain
legitimate classes of app for which the sandboxing restrictions have egregious
impacts on a user's workflow.

Consequently developers are forced to implement their own sync solutions (e.g.
Panic Sync, and Omigroup's OmniSync) - which can be a hard component to get
right and increases the overall attack surface of the application + its
server-side sync solution. Or rely on Dropbox, etc which I'm sure Panic had
good reasons to avoid (most likely 3rd-party vendor lock-in).

Hopefully the WWDC will show Apple being more accommodating on this front, but
I won't hold my breath.

~~~
cageface
Apple's refusal to even consider making their cloud services cross-platform is
already a very serious limiting factor in their adoption. Requiring these
extremely restrictive sandboxing controls might very well turn out to be the
final nail in iCloud's coffin.

~~~
astrange
Which cloud services?

[http://support.apple.com/kb/dl1455](http://support.apple.com/kb/dl1455)

iTunes is another large cloud service which is cross-platform.

------
himhckr
Had similar experience with a project that I was responsible to release a
couple of months ago. We already had an app available on Mac App Store. We
then spent about 2 months adding new features and fixing bugs. Turned out,
because of stupid sandboxing, we could no longer add any new features. Only
bug fixes were accepted. Release got stalled for about 2 weeks trying to find
a workaround. It was really depressing 2 weeks. Eventually we decided to
release on our own. We notified our existing customers and gave heavy
discounts for those who wanted to get the new version. Received few angry
emails from our existing customers but most of them understood our problems.
Other than that, it's been going smooth. We are happy we did it. We don't have
to pay 30% to Apple (there is a little cost associated with licensing but it
is just like 3% of the total cost). We now can release bug fixes as soon as we
want. In fact, the first bug fix we did was within an hour! I'd recommend
everyone to skip MAS if possible.

------
abruzzi
Frankly the only Mac App store apps that I have bought are Apple branded apps,
and that's because that is the only place to get them. When I look for a new
app, the Mac App store is the absolute last place I look. The iOS mentality of
apps simply does jive with how I use a computer, a tablet maybe, but not a
desktop/laptop.

~~~
webwielder
I love the Mac App Store. No worrying about licenses, zip files, DMGs, or
updates. The Featured tab always highlights some cool app I wasn't aware of.
Aside from these kinds of developer headaches, I think it's a huge win for the
platform.

~~~
tonyedgecombe
It isn't healthy to have one organisation become the gate keeper for all the
3rd party software.

~~~
noir_lord
It is pretty healthy for the gatekeeper though and I think that is the
problem.

------
comex
On one hand, developer tools really are a worst case situation for sandboxing,
as they are the most closely tied to a rich Unix heritage that happens to have
been designed with security only to protect users from each other, not from
their own compromised applications. (I suspect it would work much better if
Unix were designed with capabilities in mind from the beginning, though I'm
not sure exactly how such a system would work.) Plus, sending people
compromised source code to build isn't exactly a common attack vector -
although to be fair, if you think about how often people download random
source tarballs and run the shell scripts inside, and the known existence of
"watering hole" attacks targeting developers, someone somewhere has probably
tried it. And of course, Apple does not require itself to implement sandboxing
in Xcode.

On the other hand, sandboxing in general is definitely a good thing - you
can't constantly bring up the security threat posed by the NSA et al. and then
complain about the most effective type of anti-exploitation measure we know of
today. Apple's sandbox implementation on OS X is reasonably flexible, and the
post itself seems to concede that given more time, Panic could have come up
with a reasonable experience that runs under it, perhaps with some features
more awkward than without but essentially intact. So is it really that evil?

------
Fr0styMatt
It's a shame that this stuff happens really; I think it relegates the Mac App
Store to a certain niche more than anything else.

I was surprised at the limited selection I found in the store. Having just got
a new Mac, I went searching for the usual suspects - no VMware or Parallels? I
understand why as these apps can't be sandboxed. Hardly any commercial 3D
authoring tools? Where's Illustrator and their ilk (not the Lite versions, the
actual full versions). I was really surprised at the lack of big creative and
high-end apps on the store - at least in the sense the big apps that the Mac
is known for. It seems to be a bit of a wasteland in that regard. I'm sure
there are many gems in the store from smaller developers, but I found the app
discovery experience roughly on par with that of the iOS app store, which
isn't a compliment :)

The convenience factor is wonderful though - it's been a few years since my
last Mac and apps I purchased were right there waiting. Setting up the new
machine was bliss. Hopefully many of these issues can be worked out as the
store evolves.

Slightly off-topic; where do I go to find the gems on the store? What are the
good review sites (something like what TouchArcade is for iOS games)? Any with
a focus on creative apps?

~~~
gress
Pixelmator, Sketch, Omnigraffle, Logic, FCP, Motion, are pretty solid creative
tools.

~~~
hippee-lee
And Blender too.

~~~
pornel
Blender is GPL and sadly Apple's T&C forbid publication of Free Software in
the App Store.

~~~
gress
No. People who choose GPL choose not to publish their software in the App
Store.

------
bridger

      In short, we’ll trade you iCloud for something great.
    

Love this subtle dig at iCloud.

~~~
Watabou
I don't get it. iCloud has its faults but I rather like it a lot.

What's better about Panic Sync? To me it seems it's actually much worse than
the simple to use (and never having to think about it) iCloud sync. Its also
free and isn't tied to Panic. Panic sync on the other hand is is tied to Panic
app so you will likely have to make a new account so it actually adds more
hassle to the end user with no real extra features. Something great indeed!

~~~
iancarroll
You make it sound like it was a choice they made.

~~~
Watabou
Well, they sort of did.

------
mmuro
I certainly hope their new syncing is better than their Transmit Dropbox
implementation. I had to stop using sync it was so bad.

I prefer MAS apps because of how easy it is to purchase, install and update.
I'm particularly annoyed when an app is available in the App Store and is then
pulled out later. By then, I've already purchased and have to transition,
awkwardly, to a non App Store version.

This isn't the first developer tool that's done this for me.

------
SurfScore
I remember Tim Cook saying that hybrid tablets devices were doomed to fail
because they tried to do two things and failed at both. That the desktop and
mobile experience were separate experiences and should be treated as such. Yet
it seems like this is the exact mistake they're making trying to make the Mac
App Store into aa iOS App Store - Mac Edition.

------
harrystone
Coda is a great editor and although I didn't really use it for what it was
designed for, I really liked it.

------
pbreit
So it seems that syncing was the feature or a primary feature that presented
sandboxing problems? Are there any other features that are problematic?

~~~
comex
No, sandboxing doesn't pose a problem to syncing, and it's not difficult to
use iCloud to sync between multiple applications. Rather, since only Mac App
Store apps can use iCloud, syncing was a problem after abandoning sandboxing.

~~~
pbreit
So does anyone know what features were a challenge because of sandboxing?

~~~
josephlord
Not a OS X developer but I will have a go at answering.

To open a file that isn't in the application's private space the user must
select it through the default OS X file picker dialogue (the app then gets
permanent access to the file). This will work well for apps working on single
user selected files but doesn't work well when major parts of an app are file
navigation, management and generation(which is typically the case for an IDE).

I'm not sure whether full access can be granted to whole directories or what
the rules on running/debugging generated binaries are.

Sand boxing is a good thing that combined with the Apple review process means
little utilities from providers you have never heard of trustable as local
apps that aren't going to read your contacts and documents without your
permission but it does make life hard for an IDE. It sounds like Coda haven't
given up on supporting the sandbox yet but they did not want to delay product
release for it.

------
rpwilcox
Wait... WTH is Panic Sync?

~~~
relaxatorium
"What about iCloud Sync of my sites?

iCloud requires the App Store, so that’s out. But we have great news. We never
want to short-change our paying customers, so we’ve spent many months working
on Panic Sync, our own super-easy, super-secure syncing solution that gives
you power over your data. And Panic Sync will work between Panic apps—Coda and
Diet Coda to start. And Panic Sync is free. In short, we’ll trade you iCloud
for something great."

