
We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill - DiabloD3
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/12/urgent-we-only-have-hours-left-stop-nsa-expansion-bill
======
iovrthoughtthis
Is anyone else fatigued? The effort required, ontop of just having a normal
functioning life, to parse and make decisions around potential future law is
incredible.

Isn't this what elected officials are ment to do on our behalf?

~~~
letsgetphysITal
Yes, we are all fatigued, and that is how they win. Can't get your Bill
through? Rename it and submit again. Still won't work? Tack it onto a Medicaid
/ NASA funding bill. Still won't get through? Change the wording so that it
becomes more vague and open to interpretation _in your favour_ and start
again.

Bonus points if you give it a name involving patriotism, freedom, economic or
personal health, or a backromym that spells out the same.

~~~
tfha
How can we fight against these patterns? Amendments? Force bills to be broken
up? Only allow a bill to be submitted once a decade?

Our system is definitely broken, but I have no idea what type of changes might
prevent these abuses

~~~
FLUX-YOU
>How can we fight against these patterns?

Elect enough people willing to self-regulate and pass those bills. The current
climate with lobbying money won't ever pass something like that.

~~~
aaronbrethorst
What do lobbyists have to do with the NSA?

~~~
FLUX-YOU
It wasn't a comment about lobbying for NSA expansion specifically, but I
imagine there's plenty of companies who would benefit from NSA expansion that
provide services to the US government.

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trisimix
Is there plan to bombard the american public on so many fronts that they
accept mass surveillance? What the actual fuck is wrong with this country.

~~~
mtgx
And FISA reauthorization always happens a few days before Christmas.

Californians, remember to vote Feinstein out in the _Democratic primary_.
She's been one of the main champions of this bill and type of mass
surveillance (as well as the anti-encryption bills, which she's not giving
up).

It's probably one of the reasons why she decided to go back on her promise not
to run again, so she can pass it once more in a few years. Her husband also
makes big bucks from the defense industry and from government contracts -
probably not a coincidence at all. She's one of the richest Congress people -
again, likely not a coincidence.

~~~
chimeracoder
> Californians, remember to vote Feinstein out in the Democratic primary.
> She's been one of the main champions of this bill and type of mass
> surveillance (as well as the anti-encryption bills, which she's not giving
> up).

Senate Minority Leader Schumer has been the other main proponent.
Unfortunately, New York is not really a democracy, so there is no way for us
to get rid of him.

~~~
Bartweiss
Schumer is awful on a lot of levels, but I don't seem him losing his office
unless he goes the way Sheldon Silver did.

~~~
chimeracoder
> Schumer is awful on a lot of levels, but I don't seem him losing his office
> unless he goes the way Sheldon Silver did.

Agreed. New York politicians can get away with attempted murder caught on
videotape (literally) and there's still no chance that they'll lose re-
election, thanks to the array of arcane election laws that, in practice,
collectively disenfranchise New York voters.

------
okonomiyaki3000
"We only have hours"? What are we supposed to do in those hours? Make phone
calls that won't get through? Tweet? Forget it. Senators and congressmen don't
fear their constituents so they're not going to listen to their constituents.

~~~
okonomiyaki3000
Let me clarify. By "fear", I mean fear of losing their seats, not their heads.
Clearly, they don't fear either but I'm only implying that government would
work better if elected positions were easier to lose.

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dsfyu404ed
> It would also give FBI agents the power to decide whether or not to seek a
> warrant to read American communications collected under Section 702

Hoover would be so proud. This bill basically legitimizes the relentless
surveillance apparatus of his era by allowing the FBI to use the NSA's
haystack resources without a warrant.

Considering the way the FBI has acted in the last 100yr (big organizations can
only change their operational culture so far so fast and government is
particularly slow because the incentives discourage turnover), their mission
and their jurisdiction I think this is very bad. There's no way this power can
not be abused. Warrants are so trivially easy to get that the only reason to
not get them for stuff like this is to do things that you can't justify asking
for a warrant for.

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equalunique
I find it very interesting that this bill is being pushed by Devin Nunes. In
case anyone here is unaware, he is involved in an ongoing surveillance-related
controversy - he is one of the leaders alleging a scandal that HRC 2016
campaign paid Fusion GPS to produce the Steele Dossier as evidence for the FBI
to wiretap Trump Tower using an Obama-appointed FISA court judge. [0]

I find the idea of him expanding the FISA court powers contradictory to his
stated purpose of seeking justice in the matter of his supposed 2016 election
scandal. Note that this idea is the EFF's interpretation of the bill & not my
own view.

If that were the case, then perhaps his intent is to leverage the expanded NSA
powers to spy on the FBI, which he seems to believe is working against the
current administration. This would not be the first time different parts of
the US government were spying on each other. [1]

I don't believe that is the intent of this bill. After reviewing, it seems
more likely that the intent of the bill covers two goals: 1\. To require added
accountability to the FISA application process such that abuses of the FISA
court are easier to identify. There are a number of sections in the bill which
require disclosures by the FBI which were not necessary before. 2\. To remove
bureaucratic barriers limiting the Attorney General, who in the case of this
political situation, will be relied upon to investigate the government itself.

So I can see where the EFF is coming from with their take on this bill, and
certainly there is a political divide over whether or not this bill is a good
thing.

Personally I am hoping it will pass.[2]

[0] [http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/12/08/head-house-
ethics...](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/12/08/head-house-ethics-panel-
finds-evidence-abuse-in-us-government-surveillance.html)

[1] [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-
switch/wp/2014/03/12...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-
switch/wp/2014/03/12/feinstein-doesnt-like-the-cia-spying-on-her-committee-
but-shes-fine-with-nsa-bulk-data-collection/)

[2] [https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-
bill/4478...](https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-
bill/4478?q=%7B%22search%22%3A%5B%22fisa%22%5D%7D&r=1)

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nerdponx
Is there anything states can do about this?

And, if this passes, is there any way to protect myself? Obviously if the NSA
is hoarding zero-days there isn't much you can do, but what are some practical
steps?

1) avoid airports and security cameras

2) use an offshore VPN at all times

3) don't use the phone, use E2E encrypted calling like Signal

4) use cash as often as possible, or cryptocurrency

Or does none of that matter?

~~~
d33
What's your threat model? Unless you name what you're afraid of and what
you're trying to hide, you're just feeding paranoia and it's unhealthy. And
I'm not trying to say you should do nothing - the steps you suggest would at
the very least increase the cost for NSA to collect data, potentially making
it scale less or even make you fly under the radar. Still, if you want those
rather uncomfortable actions to become habits, you'll need to have some
motivation and for that you probably need to name your worries first.

~~~
nerdponx
I have a deep moral opposition to this kind of spying, and making it more
difficult is an end in and of itself. I also don't consider them terribly
uncomfortable, but that is my opinion and no one else's.

I also personally would prefer not to be spied on. I do not want my day-to-day
activities monitored by anyone but myself. In the event that the government
starts curtailing freedoms or particular kinds of behavior and thought, I do
not want to be left susceptible. So I guess my threat model is "generalized
spying". I assume I would be powerless to stop anything specifically targeted
at me, so I would like to avoid becoming a target in the first place.

If and when I start buying oxidizing chemicals, drug precursors, or
ammunition, then you are more than welcome to start tracking my purchases and
usage of those products.

~~~
wu-ikkyu
>So I guess my threat model is "generalized spying"

In this case, you should be proactive not only against NSA, but GOOG, FB, your
ISP etc.

You should look into Tails OS if you haven't already.

~~~
nerdponx
Good point, and in fact I am.

My Instagram account is long gone, my Facebook account will be gone before the
end of the month (I use it once a week at most anyway), and I've long since
stopped using any Google account for anything. I run multiple browser
extensions that help me delete cookies, block Javascript, etc. The VPN should
hopefully take care of my ISP. It try to avoid even sending emails to Gmail
accounts.

I haven't tried Tails, but I will look into it when I get some time free.

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frickinLasers
Does anyone have a source? I can't find the story anywhere.

Edit: [http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/365718-house-
set...](http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/365718-house-set-to-vote-
on-controversial-surveillance-bill)

~~~
equalunique
[https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-
bill/4478...](https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-
bill/4478?q=%7B%22search%22%3A%5B%22fisa%22%5D%7D&r=1)

------
b6
I don't want to be discouraging to anyone. Please, do anything you think will
be helpful.

But the NSA's equipment is still in hundreds of network equipment rooms, and
the data is being split off recorded and rifled at will. They'll tell you
they're "not collecting" your data, but they are. They're just using some
strange NSA version of English where siphoning your data and storing it on
hard drives is not "collecting" it.

I advocate the peaceful destruction of their facility in Utah and any other
similar facility.

~~~
twothamendment
> I advocate the peaceful destruction of their facility in Utah...

How? Either voting doesn't work or we as a people are too collective stupid to
vote for anyone different. How many like Reid, Fienstien and Hatch just keep
getting elected despite their actions? Maybe we need some real people to run?
Maybe we need to be smart enough to vote them in (and out when their time is
up - I'm looking at you, Hatch).

A there letter agency doesn't just disappear because we complain to each
other. It is going to take years to undo what is being done.

~~~
logfromblammo
Shut the water off. There won't be enough cooling for the servers.

Maybe shoot a hole in the bottom of a big, oil-filled transformer at the
nearest power substation.

~~~
giardini
This is at least the second post on this topic in which logfromblammo has
suggested that people perform criminal acts. (S)he earlier suggested keying
cars and cutting tires.

Those are simply wrong and criminal.

~~~
jameskegel
I’m curious at what point civility breaks down in a failing state, at what
level does his course of action make sense? I like to establish these limits
before emotion can cloud judgement. He may be brash but he’s not wrong yet.

~~~
logfromblammo
I don't think there ever is a discontinuity. It just slowly ramps up, such
that the only ones who notice are the ones who just woke up from comas. Every
line in the sand is crossed slowly, with shuffling feet, so the line is wiped
out as it is approached. Watershed events that are a clear trigger or
threshold are rare. Mostly, it just gets worse slowly enough that no one ever
hits their limit and breaks.

That's how we got to 2017 from 1967, after all--one hour after another,
without pause, for 50 years. And then one day, you think "WTF just happened?
How did everything get so incredibly awesome and yet also completely awful at
the same time?"

If you think, "Gee, I should have done Y way back when X happened," then you
should probably be doing Y now, even long after X happened.

I think about how it must feel for ordinary people when important history is
happening around them, and if they would have even noticed at the time. It
probably feels a lot like a fish feels after biting down on the bait.
Everything is fine and normal, then _boom_ , something grabbed me and is
pulling me and now the water is gone and some blobby hairy thing has its
appendages stuck into my gills and I flop and squirm and flop some more and
the water is still _gone_ and everything's going dim and my mouth hurts and
the blobby thing is cutting my belly open with its shiny claw and now I can't
feel my body and a gull just ate my eye and is tugging at my guts and I can't
even flop any more. And I... And it was all so fast... I want to go back...

At what point is it acceptable for the fish to start fighting? It has to start
while it is still in the water, while it still _can_ fight. But it doesn't yet
know that it _should_. What do you do if the event that makes it perfectly
clear that you should have been doing something all along is also the event
that makes it impossible for you to do it? What if the event that would have
retroactively justified your behavior never happens?

------
microDude
I live in Oregon, where I am pretty sure my representatives will oppose this
bill (as they have a history of doing so). What I really want to do is voice
my opinion to my old state of Pennsylvania, where I am less confident.

As more people move to where the jobs are at, the country will become more
blue/red divided.

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jessaustin
Wow I thought the only "bad" law that was passing was a big tax cut. Shame on
me for paying attention to the news media. Good timing for NSA, though!
Suspiciously good...

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peterwwillis
Bad tax reform that benefits mostly corporations and the 1% reported by
foreign news outlets get flagged here, but talk about a spy group or internet
regulation and suddenly politics is fair game.

I'm sick of the echo chamber and the pathetic rules of civility strangling
human communication, the invisible voting down of opinions people don't like,
the moderation filters that carve out a single world view catered to an angel
investor's whims.

I guess I'll just read the New York Times. It's annoying and devoid of useful
commentary but at least I'll get a complete news feed and not have to watch a
sad oppressive ecosystem strangle intelligent debate.

~~~
murph-almighty
Your last sentence kinda struck home for me.

3 years ago I was able to get news from reddit that was faster and sometimes
more reliable than, say, CNN. It now takes hours for a relevant story to
siphon to the top because of certain vested interests downvoting it.

It's made me miss CNN and NYT. I've started drifting back to conventional news
outlets because bad actors destroyed the ones I loved.

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bigbluedots
Non US citizens have been subject to warrantless surveillance by NSA etc for
some time now. That was fine, apparently?

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cryptonector
One might hope that the Trump administration is wary of widening the federal
government's ability to spy on its citizens. I do.

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choward
I knew there was a reason the media decided to make a big deal about a
military video from 2004 yesterday. Pure distraction.

------
pleasecalllater
And you will do nothing... as usually. You will just dream about having any
influence on the world going on.

I'm not a US citizen, so my voice doesn't count. But does your voice count if
you are a US citizen? Nope. The corporations and politicians decide, we can
just be allowed to have nice sits in the front row and watch how the
corporations world grow.

Happy watching. Tickets are expensive, and mandatory. Nice dreaming.

~~~
adventured
Is that why women and black people can vote, because what citizens think and
their voices don't matter?

Is that why gay people can get married in the US (but not in 160 other
countries), because what US citizens think doesn't count? (the majority in the
US support gay marriage)

Is that why the house and US Senate recently voted almost perfectly in step,
overwhelmingly in favor, of rolling back civil asset forfeiture abuses?
Congress has nothing to fear from it, they do however know their voters are
angry about it.

Is that why the Obama Admin put net neutrality into place, because votes &
voices don't matter? It was in fact overwhelmingly demanded by Obama's voters.
Votes, of course, matter in a big way as it turns out: had Hillary bothered to
fight for the blue wall state voters, we'd still have net neutrality.

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LeoJiWoo
EFF has proven to be an ineffectual organization. They bungled NN(infuriating
me to no end), and proven partisan at every turn, which would not be a problem
if they were successful.

But its clear we need a nonpartisan group who can successfully rally most of
America on the left and the right.

~~~
mschuster91
> But its clear we need a nonpartisan group who can successfully rally most of
> America on the left and the right.

Why? Keep the Nazis and their friends where they belong: on the dustbin of
history. There is no need to further legitimize Bannon and the rest of the
alt-right bunch by rallying with them. They need to be fought relentlessly.

------
snowpanda
Seems like this only works with Twitter unfortunately.

------
Dowwie
You can't hold a tide back with a broom

