
Safety incidents at Tesla plant were higher than industry average in 2015 - JumpCrisscross
http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-tesla-workplace-safety-20170524-story.html
======
PhasmaFelis
I made a spreadsheet out of the PDF of injury rates by industry, which is much
easier to sort and compare. Google removed the indentation I had added from
the original, but it should be clear enough; the number of digits in the NAICS
code is the indent level.
[https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LKE00PJDDE_ZnDb1Slpq...](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LKE00PJDDE_ZnDb1SlpqRX-31OjF9pZOPWZjx0O-ZXc/edit?usp=sharing)

For the record, in 2016, the injury rate per 1000 workers for "automobile
manufacturing" as a whole was 6.7; "Animal (except poultry) slaughtering" was
7.2; "Sawmills" 7.3; Tesla's was 8.1, on a level with "psychiatric and
substance abuse hospitals", just above "heavy and civil engineering
construction", and just below "correctional institutions", to name a few.
Tesla claims they're down to 4.6 in 1st quarter 2017, but of course we only
have their word for that.

The document further breaks out cases with days away from work, restrictions,
or transfers (DART). That's 3.9 for the auto industry in general, 4.9 for non-
poultry slaughtering, 3.9 for sawmills, and 7.3 for Tesla (from the WorkSafe
report linked in the article).

So it sounds like there may actually be something to this. Weird that they
decided to go with clickbait instead of just presenting the data.

------
theprop
"The scores don’t account for severity, however. The injuries at Tesla appear
to be related to long hours and ergonomic design."

Not to say that any harm to your health should be avoided, but by auto
industry standards (other than Tesla) to this day serious incidents involve
losing limbs or death. I know they're pushing everyone at Tesla as the company
is still losing a lot amount of money, but it's not clear that anyone being
pushed is taking really serious risks -- at other auto companies, they are and
the result is literally loss of limb and life. Moreover their loss is for
"greedy capitalists" as the workers earn very little, have incentives to take
risks, are not trained appropriately, and traditional car companies are quite
profitable unlike Tesla.

The photos in the recent Businessweek coverage of auto industry safety of
people missing limbs are horrible (Tesla was not mentioned therein btw).

[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-03-23/inside-
al...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-03-23/inside-alabama-s-
auto-jobs-boom-cheap-wages-little-training-crushed-limbs)

~~~
arjie
In _Understanding Human Error_, Sidney Dekker points to a study done at the
time (many decades ago) that within an industry, the guys with the most
frequent small accidents had the least frequent big accidents. Of course at
the time, it was not fully known that covering up small incidents would mean
you almost inevitably faced a catastrophe.

Just an interesting thing.

------
AKifer
The title itself uses a basic framing technique intentionally written to fool
you into a false conclusion.

1- "worse than slaughterhouses and sawmills" is more catchy than "better than
X" (chose any X automaker) 2- Is the safety level of a slaughterhouses or a
sawmill comparable to a car's ? They are things not in the same category, with
different sophistication level and different purpose, how many times a day an
average person will enter a slaughterhouse or a sawmill ?

~~~
quickben
Of course they aren't. Working on a slaughter house requires gear, starting
from chainmail gloves so you don't lose fingers and on.

Have you ever entered a sawmill? Don't get me started.

So, if Tesla is a higher injury place than a sawmill, somebody shoduld send
inspections and audit the place thoroughly.

------
gr2020
Title here is misleading. Actual title of article at LA Times is "Tesla had
worse safety records than slaughterhouses and sawmills" \- note "had", past
tense. The records in question are from 2015, and as the article says, they
are working on improvements.

~~~
colomon
And even then, the records are for number of incidents rather than severity.
The two specific things they mention are tendinitis and carpal tunnel, which
suck, but aren't the sort of injuries one associates with sawmills...

~~~
mowenz
The title is clickbait.

It's analagous to saying "Elon Musk's mouth has worse bacterial contamination
than petri dish of Lyme Disease." Sure, by number of bacterial agents, Musk's
mouth is more contaminated... But that's not a very useful statement unless
you want to mislead people.

~~~
boznz
Agree, could also have been written Tesla had lower than average safety
incidents in ..2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2016.. Nothing to see here

------
kbutler
Interestingly, Tesla's approach is to hire ergonomics experts to help address
the repetitive stress injuries (severe tendinitis and carpal tunnel).

Compare that with the slaughterhouse industry:

"In recent years, the industry has bragged about dramatic reductions in worker
injuries. What they’ve failed to report is that the OSHA injury form was
recently re-written to omit the category of repetitive stress injuries – the
most commonly reported injury in the industry."

[http://www.foodispower.org/slaughterhouse-
workers/](http://www.foodispower.org/slaughterhouse-workers/)

So, Tesla is being compared on reported injury rates to slaughterhouses, whose
standards have been re-written to exclude reporting the most common types of
injuries, which just-so-happen to be the types Tesla is reporting?

(Note that the quote above comes from a pro-vegan site, so it isn't unbiased).

NPR similarly describes widespread under-reporting of injuries in the meat
processing industry:
[http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/05/25/479509221/we-...](http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/05/25/479509221/we-
dont-know-how-many-workers-are-injured-at-slaughterhouses-heres-why)

I'm inclined to give Tesla the benefit of the doubt here, though we should not
minimize the effects of repetitive stress disorders.

------
c3534l
> Tesla did not dispute the numbers.

> we now have the lowest injury rate in the industry by far

This article seems to be misleading readers into thinking that Tesla has
unsafe working conditions, despite being the best in the industry.

~~~
Sacho
Tesla alleges they have the lowest injury rate for 2017. The report analyzed
data from 2014 to the end of 2016 and found Tesla's injury rate to be higher
than the average. They allege that there is not enough data released for 2017
to substantiate Tesla's claim.

------
nicolashahn
Is the average auto company's safety record worse than slaughterhouses and
sawmills?

~~~
UnoriginalGuy
Per the article they're "as much as 31% higher" than other auto companies.

~~~
yakult
This doesn't answer the question.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
Doesn't it? If Tesla is about as dangerous as slaughterhouses and sawmills,
and Tesla is more dangerous than other automakers, then it follows that other
auto makers are less dangerous than slaughterhouses and sawmills.

~~~
function_seven
The headline says “worse than slaughterhouses and sawmills”, not, “abous as
dangerous as”.

So no, it doesn’t answer the question. It could be that slaughterhouses and
sawmills are really safe—say 3 on a 1-10 scale—while automakers are 6 and
Tesla is 8.

------
ahannigan
Even the new title, "Safety incidents at Tesla plant were higher than industry
average in 2015".

Who cares? The very definition of "industry average" means that someone in the
industry will be above or below the average. Why would I want to read about
that? Why pick on Tesla? because they're popular?

~~~
exhilaration
_Why pick on Tesla? because they 're popular?_

To answer your last question, because two weeks ago Tesla said the opposite:
[https://www.tesla.com/blog/creating-the-safest-car-
factory-i...](https://www.tesla.com/blog/creating-the-safest-car-factory-in-
the-world)

~~~
pj_mukh
Did they claim otherwise about their 2015 numbers anywhere? The only thing
they mention is about Q1 2017. The 2017 numbers seemed to have improved
drastically, something the article recognises (but the HN headline does not
:S).

~~~
6stringmerc
Read the report and you'll find out Tesla frequently has to update its numbers
after the fact. So, yes Q1 2017 might look good NOW but in 3 months after
injuries manifest and other claims come in (IBNR), it could turn to total
shit. Tesla wants you to forget they frequently have to raise their numbers
after the fact.

So, if history is any indicator, Tesla should shut its trap until it has a
full year, after revisions, that show it's genuinely superior. Oh, I made
myself laugh.

~~~
mcguire
" _Tesla did not dispute the numbers. “We may have had some challenges in the
past as we were learning how to become a car company, but what matters is the
future,” a company spokesman said. “With the changes we’ve made, we now have
the lowest injury rate in the industry by far.”_ "

Here in the future, past trends are irrelevant.

------
leemailll
>Charley Briese said his job involved pulling down a hanging drill three times
a minute for 12 to 16 hours a day, causing severe tendinitis

12-16 hrs a day?

~~~
Animats
That's unusual in the auto industry. Usually, plants run a second shift rather
than paying overtime to the first shift. It's cheaper. Accident rates go up
and quality goes down as employees get tired. You have to have a meal break in
there, which costs more line downtime than a shift change.

~~~
blackguardx
Tesla must have a hard time hiring. I'm shocked they aren't running three
shifts with the production backlog they have.

~~~
andars
They started running three shifts some months ago.

~~~
blackguardx
Why did that guy say he was working 12-16 hrs per day? I'm out of the loop on
internal Tesla matters.

------
simonh
Shocking revelation reveals that up to half of car makers have below average
safety records!

Edit - I know safety is a serious matter, but it does look like this is a
historical issue that Tesla takes seriously and has under control.

~~~
eps
That would be "below _median_ safety records."

~~~
TheCoelacanth
"Average" is a colloquial term referring to any measure of central tendency.
The arithmetic mean is just the most common kind of average, not the only
kind.

------
hackuser
The Guardian reported on the same issue recently:

[https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/18/tesla-
wor...](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/18/tesla-workers-
factory-conditions-elon-musk)

------
Overtonwindow
I think the key point here is Musk is moving as quickly as he can towards
automatic and robots. Unionization will only push him to do that harder,
speeding up until humans are factored out of the equation along with their
jobs.

------
the_duke
There have been numerous articles over the last few weeks, all in the same
vain.

And all with very click-baity negative headlines and articles that don't
exactly seem like neutral reporting of an issue.

I'd bet that there is some PR firm trying to drum up anti Tesla sentiments.

(I'm not saying that there wasn't or isn't an issue at Tesla factories, but
the kind of reporting stinks like PR campaign).

~~~
stupidhn
> _I 'd bet that there is some PR firm trying to drum up anti Tesla
> sentiments._

Anything anti-Tesla is part of some PR conspiracy. Meanwhile, 10 vapid, fluff-
pieces from Electrek or random Musk tweets show up on the front page every
week.

Have you considered that, perhaps, it's not all rainbows and unicorns with
this company?

~~~
the_duke
Maybe, you know, read the last line of my comment?

> (I'm not saying that there wasn't or isn't an issue at Tesla factories)

------
6stringmerc
Prior submission, link to PDF report:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14412360](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14412360)

~~~
whistlerbrk
Yeah and that PDF: misleading graphics, and no standard deviation. Someone has
to be above average and it intuitively makes sense that the rushing upstart
would be, but how bad is it really? You can't tell without more statistics

------
hanoz
"Tesla's safety record had been worse than slaughterhouses and sawmills."

OMG

"The scores don’t account for severity however.”

Oh...

~~~
PhasmaFelis
EDIT: Moving this to its own top-level comment.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14422326](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14422326)

------
glaberficken
Now what I would really like to see is the numbers for "factory worked hours"
/ "car assembled" Tesla Vs Industry average.

Anyone reckon there would be a surprising number in this ratio? (i.e. is their
automation level higher than the traditional car makers?)

------
chrismealy
The union should do something about it.

------
faragon
TL;DR: clickbait article.

~~~
emodendroket
I mean that's not really the conclusion I draw from injuries being almost one-
third higher than industry averages, personally.

------
zaroth
There's no defending Tesla's worker rights or saftey record. This is a company
that's stood at the brink of failure for years and only survives through the
blood, sweat, and tears of its employees.

Maybe you believe Elon when he says that it's _worth_ it, but there's no
arguing that it's a steep price to pay.

It's incredibly frustrating that no one has figured out a way to bring about
the kind of transformative change that Tesla is after without such back
breaking sacrifice. But I think the fact remains there's too much non-
linearity in the means of production to get where Elon is trying to go without
pushing his people to the limit.

The only "answer" I can give is just that I hope TSLA employees are getting
enough equity to make it all worth it.

~~~
owenversteeg
What, exactly, is "worth it", though? SpaceX, sure, that could be worth it.
They're actually innovating.

But Tesla? A goddamn car company? What the hell is so important about fancy
cars for rich people that they have to screw the workers for?

Sure, they call themselves an "energy company", and they have made "amazing
advances in energy technology", but both Tesla's fancy solar panel AND battery
"advances" are literally just licensed Panasonic tech.

I don't get it.

~~~
PhasmaFelis
Global warming. We're at or past the tipping point already, but electric cars
and solar houses are definitely the direction we need to be going if we want
to avoid disastrous and irreversible climate change. If-- _if_ \--Tesla can
help make that happen, it'll be worth a lot of sacrifice.

~~~
briandear
What caused climate change before there were people?

~~~
emodendroket
Fires have started without human intervention in the past. Therefore, arson is
a myth.

------
PhantomGremlin
The Simpsons explained unions many years ago. It's spot on:

 _Waif: You can 't treat the working man this way! One of these days we'll
form a union, and get the fair and equitable treatment we deserve! Then we'll
go too far, and become corrupt and shiftless, and the Japanese will eat us
alive!_

~~~
apalmer
japanese did not eat us automotive industry alive because of unions. japanese
primarily eat the us automotive industry alive because of far superior
manufacturing innovation.

~~~
CamperBob2
And of course, unions have _never_ been known to stand in the way of
manufacturing innovation.

~~~
Xylakant
German car manufacturers are heavily unionized. It's one of the sectors with
the strongest union presence. They also outcompete US manufacturers. Maybe,
just maybe, unions are not to blame. Maybe, just maybe, data indicates that
management may have something to do with it.

~~~
_pmf_
I can tell you that German automotive unions (OEMs and suppliers) are among
the main opponents of electromobility. ZF, Mahle ... a lot of components are
just no longer needed for a gearless EV where the motor consists of a large
coil instead of thousands of high-precision parts.

They are also responsible for making sure that government grants flow into
OEMs instead of generic EV charging infrastructure.

We regularly have reengineering projects for end-of-line testing equipment and
other test benches where we are contractually required to guarantee that the
new version does not make the personnel operating the equipment redundant
(i.e. it may not be more efficient than the 15 year old version). (I won't
blame anyone for disbelieving this.)

So, yes, they are very much against manufacturing improvements.

