
Amazon is handing out 'Thank you' t-shirts to warehouse workers as it cuts pay - doener
https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-warehouse-workers-thank-you-t-shirts-as-it-cuts-their-hazard-pay-2020-5
======
partyboat1586
Reminds me of the weekly clapping for the NHS here in the UK when what they
really need is a pay rise and PPE supplies. Sometimes thank you is not enough.

In the case of Amazon this seems much more sinister and cult like. I struggle
to believe that any of the warehouse workers buy into it.

~~~
deadgunslinger
Do you believe permanently raising wages to offset black swan events such as
the COVID-19 epidemic is a wise move? What about the next black swan event?
Are they going to be paid enough then or they'll need a pay rise again?

Healthcare professionals are paid much more compared to the average UK
citizen. Especially doctors, the average pay (100k pounds) is in the 2% of the
earners. Emigrant doctors couldn't even dream of finding comparable wages in
free market scenarios in their own countries and come to the UK.

I think the best we could do collectively is to pay out generous bonuses to
frontline nurses for the duration of the pandemic.

~~~
tsimionescu
The COVID-19 epidemic is not a black swan event. It is a foreseeable event
with a computable probability of happening. Epidemics are recurring events
throughout human history, including in the present day. Sure, the recurrence
is low, especially for global pandemics, but you can be almost absolutely sure
that within the next 100 years there will be another one.

In fact, even in the black swan book, they are explicitly given as an example
of rare but NOT black swan-style events.

Point being, governments and corporations should have epidemic plans. It
should never come as a surprise. Sure, a small mom-an-pop place or a start-up
can't really prepare, but a corporation the size of Amazon should have an
epidemic plan and reserves for that. Not having one would simply be
irresponsible, both to shareholders and to employees.

Edit to add: airlines, restaurant, and hotel chains should have been the most
aware of this. If they do not have plans for resisting a 2-6 month epidemic
when business is shut down, then they are simply gambling on government
intervention. There is almost 0% probability of operating one of these
companies for 50 years and not having to battle at least a local epidemic in a
large country.

~~~
makomk
Here's how this would go. The UK government did have epidemic plans, including
a stockpile of PPE. Here's how the BBC described that stockpile: "Coronavirus:
UK failed to stockpile crucial PPE". Of the four items that it complains were
missing from the stockpile - gowns, visors, swabs and body bags - two (gowns
and swabs) were ones that the government didn't expect to need for the
epidemics it was planning for, the visors are expensive and bulky to store but
so easy to manufacture hobbyists with 3D printers can literally do it at home,
and I'm not even sure what's going on with body bags because there was
famously a huge Brexit stockpile of those. Anyway, my overall point is that
governments and corporations don't get credit for planning, they get blamed
for the ways in which their plans don't predict the future exactly.

~~~
TheOtherHobbes
Perhaps you missed the C4 doco which showed that stockpiles of PPE of all
kinds were run down and what was left was often out of date.

Or the conclusions of the government's own Exercise Cygnus in 2016 which
stated clearly that this should never be allowed to happen because the
consequences would be beyond horrific.

------
ccthr
Reading this makes me thing I should divest.

I feel ashamed owning shares in a company that thinks 20 hours unpaid time off
a quarter is reasonable.

~~~
netsharc
It's getting harder and harder to participate in the modern world for me. So
far I've deleted my accounts on Uber (because of the harassment reports)
Airbnb (because they don't give a fuck about scams), and last, Twitter
(because they were enabling Nazis, and continuing to use Twitter is basically
endorsing Twitter in my eyes). But the majority of the world seems to just
shrug and are fine with the terrible behaviours.

~~~
chadcmulligan
The slaves must free themselves - I always think of the start of the mining
unions - the strikes went on for a long time, and they were very nasty, it was
a huge fight. People have been tricked out of these rights that were hard won,
capital won't easily go back to decent conditions for workers without a fight.

~~~
TheOtherHobbes
Early 20th century unionisation only happened in the US after pitched battles
and gun fights, and when that didn't stop it it was bought off where possible.

A lot of that history seems to have been suppressed to the point that hardly
anyone knows about it. It's certainly not something you'll see being mentioned
on any mainstream media channel.

~~~
chadcmulligan
yes its disappointing, younger people don't realise how much blood, sweat and
tears went into obtaining the working conditions they have now, and as you
say, it's not taught much any more.

I remember going to a huge meeting and strike in the 80's, things were a lot
more civilised then. I was a young apprentice, there was an older guy who was
'blackballed' \- he had turned on a switch against the slowdown rules (a
partial strike) - no other worker would talk to him. There were strike funds
for people who couldn't afford it, it was a very exciting thing for a young
kid, I don't know if it happens any more. People dying on the job so the
owners can make more money is nothing new.

------
espadrine
The title is purposefully misleading.

Amazon is not handing out ‘Thank you’ T-shirts to its warehouse workers.

It is handing out “Thanks to you, we will deliver” T-shirts to its fulfillment
associates.

It is a societal statement on their power dynamics, not a hypocritical act.

Amazon wants to be seen as exploitative today, because it will morally justify
the layoffs tomorrow once all this is automated away.

~~~
IceDane
Found the Amazon manager.

~~~
espadrine
no.

I try to objectively characterize their reasoning.

I see comments about how it is awful of me to call them “fulfillment
associates”—but this is the term Amazon picked[0]. And they chose it to
represent how they see it fit in their worldview.

My personal feelings? I am saddened by the lack of compassion. But the only
way for people to optimize for the fulfillment of all lives instead of the
minimization of all costs requires, at this point, a far teleportation of the
Overton window in the political discourse.

[0]:
[https://www.amazon.jobs/en/landing_pages/versandmitarbeiter](https://www.amazon.jobs/en/landing_pages/versandmitarbeiter)

------
pwdisswordfish2
I’ve said it before and I won’t tire of saying it:

»Gut, das ist der Pfennig! Und wo ist die Mark?«

[https://youtube.com/watch?v=Ihb2XqEsa4g](https://youtube.com/watch?v=Ihb2XqEsa4g)

The same bullshit is happening everywhere. In the German Bundestag MPs gave
standing ovations for care workers. Meanwhile those continue to slave away for
pennies, now more precariously than ever, while the next items on the MPs
agenda are bailouts for airlines and fucking car manufacturers.

We can’t live without the care people and we don’t want to live without the
fulfillment slaves. »Sie schulden euch Glück und Leben.« They should have huge
leverage, especially in these times, why will they not organize?

~~~
pwdisswordfish2
Check out this CNBC interview with one of the warehouse organisers who was
fired. (Which led to Tim Bray quitting.)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15HUGc7R8hw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15HUGc7R8hw)

At one point it almost seems like he is suggesting to this poor guy that it is
unreasonable for him to protest for better working conditions because "people
like me" need to be able to place orders on Amazon while in lockdown. Imagine
the difference in salary between the guy working for CNBC and the guy working
in the Amazon warehouse. Feels as if we are watching some dystopian fantasy
film like Hunger Games.

~~~
bryanrasmussen
I think it's a knee-jerk feeling that during an emergency you shouldn't refuse
to work because you are making it harder on everyone else, as well as taking
advantage of the emergency. That sounds reasonable enough, until you think
about the fact that unless they organize and demand improvement now they won't
have the leverage to do it after the emergency is over.

------
pauletienney
Personnaly, the COVID episode is the final straw. I live in France rural area.
Amazon brings huge benefits and comodities there but I can't stand their
attitude towards employees anymore.

~~~
jason0597
Shouldn't French Amazon employees be safe due to French labour laws?

~~~
pauletienney
Actually most of stories that influenced my decision are from US: employees
fired by algorythm, fired because trying to unionize, etc. It seems all of
this is impossible in France but still, this is not a culture I want to
support.

~~~
koheripbal
...but what if your impression is just based upon the bubble of news you
consume? Isn't it possible you, from France, don't get unbiased news about US
companies?

~~~
pauletienney
I consume a lot of news from US and France on a quite large political
spectrum, so I think the bias is quite reduced. I also discussed with an
Amazon french warehouse manager. My decision is cold and well thought. Btw I
would love to be wrong because I will miss their services.

------
dajohnson89
Clickbaity title (and worse than the article headline). Amazon is not cutting
pay. It is removing the hazard pay, which was extra on top of the normal
wages.

~~~
d3nj4l
Given the current scenario, isn't all pay hazard pay?

Edit: And it's mentioned in the article as well:

> The token comes as Amazon announced it would be cutting the $2 per hour wage
> hike it brought in for staff in mid-March as hazard pay for coming in during
> the pandemic.

The "Hazard Pay" was a pay rise for coming in during the pandemic, which as
far as I can see hasn't ended yet. Cutting hazard pay right now, in real
terms, is cutting pay.

~~~
koheripbal
> isn't all pay hazard pay?

Not really. Not all jobs are risky. I fail to see how being in a well
ventilated warehouse is risky. It's not like they're interacting with
customers.

~~~
panarky
_> I fail to see how being in a well ventilated warehouse is risky_

Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it isn't happening.

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/03/24/amazon-...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/03/24/amazon-
warehouse-workers-coronavirus-positive/)

~~~
koheripbal
Literally nothing in that article supports your argument.

2 million people have tested positive - most of them probably did not contract
it at work.

~~~
d3nj4l
Did you even read the article?

> In the past few days, workers tested positive for covid-19 at Amazon
> warehouses and shipping facilities across the country.

> workers complain Amazon hasn’t provided them with enough information about
> the spread of virus in their facilities

> [a worker] only found out there was an infected co-worker after confronting
> a human resources staffer in the break room

> Some workers complained that Amazon pushes them to meet the per-hour rate at
> which it wants orders fulfilled, a practice that they worry discourages safe
> sanitary practices such as washing hands after a cough or sneeze. Others
> have complained about “stand-up” meetings, where workers stand shoulder-to-
> shoulder at the start of each shift.

All of these support the notion that working in a warehouse is risky during
the pandemic.

In any case, how does the proportion of people who contracted the coronavirus
at work to total number of positive cases so far have to do with anything? If
your hypothesis is true (and you've given no evidence for that), it could very
likely be _because_ of the lockdowns we've had so far, which have prevented
people from going to work in situations where they could've gotten it.
Regardless, the proportion has nothing to do with how risky working in a
warehouse is in the first place!

~~~
koheripbal
Again, none of these sentences indicate that anyone was infected at work - nor
that it's any more dangerous than literally everyone else's work place.

------
the-dude
In the meantime in France, unions are holding Amazon accountable.

------
throwawayer17

      And just because he's a human
      a man would like a little bite to eat
      he wants no bull and a lot of talk,
      that gives no bread or meat.

------
brainless
I have Tweeted this before and it is relevant here:

Our situation with the virus is not dystopian, but our handling of it from the
world leaders, business leaders certainly is.

------
waschl
I am trying to reduce my Amazon-usage to a minimum, which works better and
better. Only feature which is left are actually the wishlists to keep track of
my own desires and ideas for gifts to others. Anyone knows a good alternative
for any kinds of goods, which integrates with all kinds of online shops? I
live in Germany.

~~~
CaptainZapp
While certainly less convenient, but what about a real low tech solution:

A notebook.

While certainly not as spiffy it has the added advantage of being completely
vendor agnostic.

------
mjmasn
Aside from the general tone-deafness of this move, shouldn't the management at
the warehouses be the ones wearing the thank you t-shirts? To you know, thank
the workers...

I'm sure those workers would probably prefer and deserve a bonus and a
heartfelt individual thank you though.

~~~
TheOtherHobbes
Workers are resources, not people. You're not considered a person in the US
unless your net worth is high enough to make work unnecessary, _and_ you can
deal with a serious medical emergency without being bankrupted by it.

------
mrweasel
Does Amazon management simply don’t see that stuff like handing out t-shirt is
actually making them look worse? They could have cut pay and saved the cost of
the shirts.

------
ReticentVole
"Give me enough medals and I'll win you any war"

------
hardsoftnfloppy
[https://youtu.be/jLly1AUD9LI](https://youtu.be/jLly1AUD9LI)

------
zpeti
I’m genuinely interested in what people who think of amazon as an evil company
think it should do.

It hardly ever makes a profit. Any profit it makes is from AWS usually.

It is popular because it’s so cheap, which is why people buy there. So really
the solutions can only be:

1\. Raise prices and consumers suffer 2\. Keep wages low and workers suffer
3\. Stop existing.

I wonder how many people who complain about amazons working conditions don’t
shop there and buy the same product for a higher price elsewhere. I’d guess
not many.

~~~
mping
Consumers suffer because they won't buy that 50in tv? Really, any business
that exploits workers should not exist. If some goods are just too expensive
then people should really learn to live without them. I don't mind "suffering"
as a consumer if what I pay reflects the real costs of production. It's called
honesty.

The problem is that any company as big as Amazon is a billion pound train
moving at high speed, it can't make turns that fast. So while I would like for
them to try harder I don't expect it to happen.

~~~
zpeti
That might well be, but your view of how consumers should behave is not what
happens in the real world. A lot of things in the world should be some way you
imagine but they’re not.

Otherwise amazon (or Walmart) wouldn’t exist, because everyone would support
their local store. But they don’t. Prices matter.

~~~
harimau777
A potential solution would be to pass regulations that protect workers.
Examples could include minimum wages, profit sharing plans, or mandatory
benefits.

That wouldn't necessarily affect consumer behavior but it would affect what
strategies corporations are able to use to service that behavior.

~~~
zpeti
Ok, but then amazons prices will be higher. Taken to the extreme amazon might
not exist because it can’t deliver the low prices it has so far.

Is that what you want? If you do, that’s fine, that’s a fair enough
perspective, but understand that you are probably making it harder for people
with less money. Same goes for Walmart.

~~~
vertex-four
There will always be a company that delivers products according to the minimum
regulations required by law - that's how capitalism and competition are meant
to work (given a near-unlimited labour supply).

~~~
zpeti
Correct. But in this Imaginary scenario it will Certainly be more expensive
than current amazon. Is that more acceptable, to say the poorest in society,
than bad worker conditions?

~~~
vertex-four
The poorest in society, at least in a functioning capitalist society, are
those either employed according to the minimum regulations or those receiving
state benefits. By raising both of these, we raise the purchasing power of the
poorest in society, hopefully in a way that is commensurate with the increased
costs.

We are able to provide both good working conditions and a living wage to all
people. We can afford it.

