
Deadly stupidity during Aeroflot flight 1492 emergency evacuation - chmaynard
http://www.askthepilot.com/deadly-stupidity-in-moscow/
======
twelve40
This person did not bother to read anything about the incident but is quick to
blame "people's stupidity". There were plenty of details available before this
was posted on May 9th, including the Wikipedia article.

> If indeed lightning touched off a fire aboard Aeroflot 1492, this would be
> highly unusual

No, the lightning did not set off a fire. There was no fire until it landed.
See Wikipedia Aeroflot 1492.

> there’s evidence that the death toll was higher than it should have been,
> thanks to the selfish actions of a number of passengers

Fails to reference any of this evidence. All eyewitness accounts I've read
(see below) say the passengers with bags were business class and they did not
interfere with the evacuation. The state news said 4 days ago the evacuation
was completed in 55 seconds (last link at the bottom). Sure, they are lying
and this guy has better sources but he failed to mention where he got his
"evidence" from.

Eyewitnesses (a passenger and a flight attendant) say the back of the plane
filled with thick smoke and started melting even before it stopped. The only
people who survived in the rows 12+ were the two who rushed to the front while
the plane was still moving. By the time the plane stopped people in rows 12+
were most likely already unconscious. Yet, TFA's author is smearing people as
"stupid" and is 100% certain it was the stupid luggage people.

[https://ria.ru/20190507/1553334256.html](https://ria.ru/20190507/1553334256.html)
[https://lenta.ru/news/2019/05/06/saved/](https://lenta.ru/news/2019/05/06/saved/)
[https://tass.ru/proisshestviya/6403085](https://tass.ru/proisshestviya/6403085)

~~~
wjnc
Please, before I rush to judgement, in what way does taking a suitcase even by
a single individual not create a few seconds lost for those further down the
line?

I saw the footage and my first thought was exactly that of the OP. Tens of
suitcases means tens of seconds delay. In an incident that gives you at most a
few minutes for evacuation at least some of the dead are attributable to the
actions of those carrying suitcases. That is criminal negligence in my book.

I now see another response quoting a Russian reponse indicating there was no
congestion. Technically only the last survivor coming out could answer that
question. For me, it seems strange that all the fatalities were instantaneous,
while the survivors were unhindered. I'd imagine that with a broken up
fuselage but not with a unbroken fuselage on fire. Perhaps the OP is overly
emotional, but it's emotion pointing to something that is clearly wrong:
people value belongings wrongly in case of serious accidents and the training
should help people cope with that. I once saw a video of people trying to get
their backpacks in case of a flash flood. They did not survive. Your property
is basicly worthless compared to you being alive. We should learn to extend
that to other people in case of emergency.

~~~
twelve40
> few minutes for evacuation

The evacuation was completed in 55 seconds. People in the back were
stranded/unconscious/buckled-up before the plane even stopped. The eyewitness
reported (see links in my post) he had to _crawl on all fours_ out of the
plane through thick smoke through a completely clear aisle. People with bags
were the ones sitting immediately in the first few rows, they did not cause a
congestion.

I would be pissed off as anyone if luggage grabbers killed someone, but it
seems they weren't the "deadly stupidity" here? I mean, the dude just wrote
the whole pompous blog post with a flashy title off an unlikely rumor?

~~~
verytrivial
> People with bags [...]

SHOULD NOT HAVE HAD THEIR BAGS. END OF STORY.

You say yourself the last survivor existed after 55 seconds. Did bag carriers
cause even a two second delay? Could one extra person have crawled out from
the smoke before succumbing? Perhaps that 12 year old girl?

You (and I mean anyone but if you fly I literally mean you) should not be
making these sort of calculations when deciding to carry or not carry. Do not
carry. Exit.

~~~
crooked-v
A quote from the last survivor off the plane says that the aisle in front of
them was completely clear as they left. In other words, any delays that might
have happened weren't actually enough to harm or kill anyone in and of
themselves.

~~~
ken
Or someone ahead of there spent several seconds pushing bags out of the aisle,
and not everyone realized the speed of evacuation was being determined by
obstructions. Or, not every piece of luggage causes the same slowdown, and the
first piece of luggage with significant delay caused the choke point for all
of those who didn't make it out. Or a dozen other scenarios. We just don't
know.

90% of highway traffic jams I drive through end up having no visible cause.
That doesn't mean that there was never anything in the road causing a
slowdown.

------
krisoft
The article talks about stupidity, and these people are often marked as
idiots. It is important to note that people follow patterns. Dazzled, scared,
and panicking people even more so. I don't know what is the solution to this
problem, but I bet the first step is to drop the labels, accept that this is
how many reacts currently and design around that behaviour.

Take for example fire exits. We know masses have died meters from safety
because they couldn't figure out to pull instead of push, or had the calm to
handle a door knob. Did we blame their 'stupidity'? No, we mandated outward
opening doors and push-to-open emergency latches.

~~~
ip26
_or had the calm to handle a door knob [...] we mandated [...] push-to-open
emergency latches_

Tangent, is that about focus & presence of mind or the knob getting hot? Much
easier to push open a hot latch with your clothed shoulder than to turn a red-
hot knob.

~~~
kd5bjo
There were a few incidents where people were crushed to death by a panicked
crowd trying to flee burning buildings. With that much force behind you,
there’s no way to open an inward door. It’ll also generate a lot of friction
between the bolt and strike plate, making a traditional doorknob hard to open.

The new-style emergency exit door is designed to act like a pressure release
valve— if a person is pressed up against the inside with life threatening
force, the door opens automatically and lets the fleeing crowd out.

------
orbital-decay
The article raises a valid concern, but the last person who left the plane
alive said in a recent interview that there was no congestion in this
particular accident. [0]

 _> Я ничего не могу сказать насчет сумок, про которые все говорят. Мне они
точно не помешали: я шел последним, за мной никого не было. Я уже не могу
сказать, сколько мы ждали, пока проход освободится, — время относительно, не
могу точно оценить. Но я не могу сказать, что что-то тормозило эвакуацию. Был
только один момент — одна женщина побежала вперед и упала, но ее вынесли.
Никакой давки в самолете не было._

[0] [https://meduza.io/feature/2019/05/07/ya-shel-poslednim-za-
mn...](https://meduza.io/feature/2019/05/07/ya-shel-poslednim-za-mnoy-uzhe-
nikogo-ne-bylo)

~~~
igor47
> I can't say anything regarding bags, about which everyone is talking. They
> definitely didn't get in my way: I went last, there was nobody behind me. I
> can't say how long we waited until the way was clear -- time is relative,
> and I cannot judge precisely. But I cannot say that there was anything
> interfering with the evacuation. There was one moment -- one woman ran
> ahead, and she fell, but she was carried out. There was no stampede/crush on
> the plane.

------
lkramer
At least one aggrevating factor seems to me to be the fault of the airlines.

They were so busy adding fees to checked-in luggage that everybody now tries
to stuff everything into their carry-on.

If the majority of people's luggage was checked in, it would not make the
problem go away, but some selfish idiot running out with his laptop under his
arm is a lot different than the same idiot trying to get his laptop AND his
oversized wheelie bag off the plane.

~~~
yardstick
Even if checked-in fees went away, I would still try to go cabin luggage only
for short trips away (anything under a week) because it is significantly
quicker than waiting for luggage to be unloaded etc.

And for what it’s worth, I use a backpack, so it’s often stored at my feet due
to locker space pseudo reserved for hard cases.

~~~
jjeaff
On many budget carriers, a personal item that fits under the seat is actually
all you get for free. You have to pay extra for a carry on bag.

~~~
deanclatworthy
Not in Europe.

~~~
ovi256
Meanwhile, in real life Europe, check out the practices of low-cost carriers
like Wizzair and Ryanair.

~~~
systemtest
Wizzair was so expensive with carry-on luggage that I ended up putting most of
my clothes in a cardboard box and shipping it to the hotel using DHL. My small
backpack was free and I used it for toiletries and two days of clothes.

------
avar
Those passengers aren't to blame, regulators and aircraft designers are to
blame.

People are idiots in the aggregate, and reliably exhibit herd behavior
counterproductive to their survival. Aircraft design must account for this.

There's something to the famous Feynman quote if we apply it in this context:

    
    
        "For a successful technology, reality
        must take precedence over public relations,
        for Nature cannot be fooled. -- Richard P. Feynman
    

In order to be certified aircraft must be completely evacuated during a test
in 90 seconds. Here's such a test of the A380, Boeing etc. conduct tests in
the same manner:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIaovi1JWyY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIaovi1JWyY)

These tests have been widely critiqued as completely unrealistic, e.g. here:
[https://www.aerosociety.com/news/emergency-evacuation-
time-f...](https://www.aerosociety.com/news/emergency-evacuation-time-for-a-
rethink/)

Numerous real-world examples of emergency evacuations "in the wild" have shown
that evacuations proceed _nothing_ like what's shown in these tests.

If aircraft manufacturers and regulators faced up to this we wouldn't have
this problem. You'd get actual safety instead. E.g. design changes to aircraft
mitigating the aisle blockages that _do_ happen in these evacuations, but
aren't accounted for in tests, more emergency exits etc.

This is a recurring topic, e.g. in 2015 a BA flight in Las Vegas took 5
minutes to evacuate: [http://www.flight.org/the-numbnut-passenger-evacuation-
of-ba...](http://www.flight.org/the-numbnut-passenger-evacuation-of-ba-
flight-2276)

------
bulka
FWIW the first reaction across all russian language sources was exactly the
same as on this thread. From what I understand (based on later reporting and
comments by two survivors) there were no delays due to people grabbing bags or
anything else. The maim issue seem to have been the rear escape door not
working. It might be a good idea to wait for official results of the
investigation before calling for all sort of action.

------
mcsoft
I’ve seen many posts like this in Russian media too. While the death toll is
huge and the air carrier’s stock has plunged 3% down, there is a natural
motivation for existence of social media fakes blaming passengers. Someone
shared similar post on Facebook recently from an account that was created a
few months ago and has posted only 3 meaningless picture shares ever since.
Initially many media outlets did not even mention air carrier’s name in their
stories covering the accident.

From multiple video sources it’s clear that the plane caught fire only after
violent progressive bouncing on runway. The preceding events (lightning
strike, partial radio loss, overweight landing) set up a stage for a disaster
but hardly were direct causes of the fire.

Having been a private pilot for a while, we, pilots, are trained for
emergencies. For example, my instructor routinely idles engine power without
saying a word during flight reviews. On FAA practical test you are supposed to
glide and land an airplane that lost power completely. Though I hope to never
encounter engine loss in real life, I did dozens of practice approaches with
zero power.

However passengers are never trained. This accident’s survivor witnessed that
screams started after first bounce. When gear failed and fire ignited on
second or third kick screams got louder. One couldn’t hear crew instructions
in this mess. You can’t be sure you’d behave rationally until you’re there.

If we want extra safety we should train for rare situations like this. How
many ditching incidents you can recall beyond Hudson miracle of 2009? Then why
explain how to inflate a life vest every time on board. Shouldn’t we better
teach passengers to leave their belongings, to crawl under smoke, to push
other people out if they are unconscious? I would create a financial incentive
for those travelers who undergone such a training and passed certain test.

Statistically, however, commercial flying today is much safer than traveling
by car. In the US alone about 100 people are killed on the road every single
day. So if we are optimizing for the number of souls lost during
transportation, it is unclear what needs to be fixed with a top priority.

~~~
Someone
_”Shouldn’t we better teach passengers to leave their belongings, to crawl
under smoke, to push other people out if they are unconscious?”_

 _Teaching_ will help only a little, at best. You would have to _train_
passengers.

The more they’re under stress, the harder it is for untrained passengers to
deviate from their standard “leave a plane” program. That includes taking
one’s luggage and waiting for other passengers.

And yes, that applies to the life vests instructions, too. Advantage there is,
that if you need those, chances are you’ll have minutes to prepare (but often,
passengers still will make the mistake of opening them while inside the plane)

~~~
mcsoft
Agree. You can't rely on everyone's behaving rationally. You should rather
expect panic.

Though _knowing_ there _could_ be smoke or you _might_ need to crawl will
trigger thoughts at least in a subset of people and will increase an overall
survival rate.

As for life vests - even in Hudson accident they were left unused. Maybe in
the 1960s they were helpful but for now they look obsolete. Chances are you'll
get fire rather than ditching. I feel their value is more psychological.

------
cyberferret
To this day, I still don't take more than a very small backpack on board any
aircraft with me. I don't understand people taking huge roll ons with them in
the passenger compartment?

Is it really too much to check the bags in and wait at the baggage carousel at
the other end to retrieve them? Airlines need to can the exorbitant baggage
fees to encourage people to check bags into the hold rather than try and take
their entire 2 weeks vacation worth of stuff with them in the cabin.

It is particularly annoying that on almost every flight I am on, I have to
remove my very small and light backpack (usually just containing a book and my
phone, headphones etc.) from the overhead bins and am forced to stow it under
my feet in front of me (I am quite tall, and prefer nothing on the floor in
front of me to prevent me stretching my legs in the limited room available) in
order to make room for hundreds of others who can't bear to wait a few more
minutes at the destination airport. I try to travel light and take up as
little room as possible on the plane, and I get penalised because too many
people try to do the opposite. It is a lose-lose endgame.

Increase the incentives to check bags in the hold, restrict carry on even
further - that should make it a much more pleasant cabin experience, even in a
non emergency.

~~~
MegaButts
I think most people don't check bags because airlines lose luggage all the
time.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Do they though? Or is that just people's perception? It's a common case in
life that people operate on extremely inflated perceptions of risk, often
related to how news invert risk perceptions (the more you hear about something
on the news, the less likely it is to happen; journalists and article writers
don't report on stuff that happens regularly).

~~~
TomVDB
The last 2 times I checked my luggage, at least one piece didn't arrive.

In one of those cases, it was our camping gear that we needed a few days later
(luckily we got it the morning we left the hotel for that campground, which
was a 4 hour drive from the hotel). The other case, it was literally all my
cloths for a 5 day stay. It arrived 2 days later. (The airline paid for
essentials.)

I know that the official statistics of lost luggage are very low. I'm sure
that these number don't come close to reality, probably due to some
technicality (e.g. 'lost' only counts when it never showed up, instead of
showing up after a few days.)

When you plan vacations that go from one place to the other, with hotels,
cars, and activities booked everywhere, the last thing you want to happen is
throw it all into disarray because your luggage didn't arrive. (And, yes, we
usually plan for a day or 2 close to the airport in case flights get cancelled
etc.)

------
lazyasciiart
Oddly enough, this article is almost word for word the same as one about the
Vegas crash it mentions (and links to): [http://www.askthepilot.com/emergency-
etiquette/](http://www.askthepilot.com/emergency-etiquette/)

~~~
ronilan
At the bottom of which is this interesting paragraph:

 _And for a slightly different perspective, here are some comments from
Christine Negroni, aviation safety journalist and author of the Flying Lessons
blog:

Like you, I found myself shaking my head when I saw the videos or read reports
of people taking their carry on luggage off the plane. Then I interviewed a
passenger on Asiana 214 [the 2013 crash-landing of a 777 in San Francisco] who
had done so and was surprised by his explanation. He told me that when the
plane came to a stop and the evacuation began, he acted by habit in gathering
his things and only afterward did he realize what he was doing. So I think we
cannot discount the effect of altered state of consciousness as playing a role
in this behavior. You may have read about this as a form of “negative panic.”_

Which may lead to a revision of Hanlon’s razor:

 _”Never attribute to stupidity that which can be adequately explained by
indifference.”_

~~~
ricardobeat
Even with flight attendants desperately screaming “leave your bags!” and a
fire raging? More likely that person was just trying to hide his
embarrassment.

~~~
plouffy
I've never been in a flight accident (thankfully), but from my experience in
amateur kickboxing fights when you're in a stressful environment (in a ring)
and everyone is screaming, I don't think I ever heard a thing my corner was
yelling at me, even if they were only a few metres away, my brain just went
into auto-pilot. So I wouldn't discount his story.

------
EugeneOZ
It's a total trash article, just sensationally-hysterical crying.

"It’s not clear at this point if the plane was on fire before it landed"

It is totally clear, just read more official sources. Plane was not on fire
before landing. You can see it even on videos.

"While a deadly fire raged around them, witnesses say people were nonetheless
stopping to collect their carry-ons, clogging the aisles and slowing the
evacuation"

It's a lie. One of the survivors, who left the plane last (not first),
witnessed there was no such issue, path was clear and evacuation was quick.

Engines didn't stop - they were working as blust furs, accelerating fire, so
people behind the wings died in about 20 seconds. 2 people survived after row
12, just because they started running before the fire started.

Such an awful example of "sensational" journalism.

~~~
rounce
What are your a source(s)? As the official accident report hasn’t even been
completed (let alone released) anything else is just speculation.

~~~
EugeneOZ
There are links in other comments here. There are official statements already
about accident, main version is "mistakes of pilots".

Before asking "sources" from just comment, try to find at least one "source"
link in that click-biting trash we are discussing.

------
jedmeyers
> They are [evacuation slides] designed for no other purpose than to empty a
> plane of its occupants as rapidly as possible.

They are also designed to be flotation devices.

------
basicplus2
Maybe the luggage compartments should be automatically locked shut for any
landing/takeoff thus preventing people accesssing them during an evacuation

~~~
hughrlomas
How about mandatory jail time for anyone removing personal items during an
emergency evacuation.

~~~
ars
That wouldn't help much. That's after the fact, no one is going to be thinking
about it during an evacuation.

Anyone who _would_ be thinking about it, already knows not to.

~~~
goodcanadian
Well, it might help raise awareness if the proceedings get significant news
coverage.

------
Krasnol
The most surprising thing to me was that while watching the plane driving
along, turning, coming to a stop, there was not a single fire engine there.
Why is nobody talking about that? Every time I saw some kind messed up
landing, I saw fire engines rushing towards and/or behind the plane even
before it lands.

~~~
dmitriid
Because the pilots never indicated there was an emergency warranting a fire
crew.

~~~
Krasnol
Alright I can accept that.

However, the moment this plane hit the ground and started burning somebody at
the tower should have seen it. I mean...probably many people saw it. What
about them?

~~~
Piskvorrr
Airports are large. As in "huge". This is not obvious from airplane traffic,
as airplanes are also fast, so they cover the distances at a proportionate
speed. Check out any emergency landing videos where firefighters are visible:
the trucks seem tiny and slow, even at top speed (which could be ~200 kph).
Speculation from reports: firefighters were a) expecting them at a different
rwy, b) chasing the plane as it touched down, but no video long enough to
actually see them arrive.

~~~
Krasnol
Alright, let's not overdo this. I live in Frankfurt and I know what a big
airport is. I also know that fire trucks are not THAT small...This was an
emergency landing. The trucks should have been all over this plane the moment
it touched down. Just as you can see it on many videos of even less dangerous
situations. However there is not a single fire truck to see here:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmvcoAPLeuA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmvcoAPLeuA)
nowhere. Even when people were already away from it. Also here:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GX_tMKmUjbg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GX_tMKmUjbg)
you see people starting to get out of the plane. Nothing. There is some kind
of vehicle coming over at the end but it's not a fire truck.

In this video (around 2Mins)
[https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=k5Lw7_1557086404](https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=k5Lw7_1557086404)
you see finally water from obviously a single fire truck being sprayed on the
plane but there must have passed a very long time since the vehicle from the
other video is standing on the right site and people are gathered around it.

So please. Don't tell me there isn't a massive fuckup here.

~~~
RandomBacon
The fire trucks do not know where the plane will stop on the runway. A plane
coming in to land will be going well over 100 mph. The fire trucks cannot be
on the runway ahead of the plane (lest they be taken out by the plane and make
the crash worse with the side benefit of now having more victims and less
first responders).

It is physically impossible for the firetrucks to be at the plane the moment
it stops.

------
tomohawk
This sounds like a great reason to:

a) strongly enforce minimal luggage overhead

b) require free luggage transport (up to certain limit)

c) provide much stronger penalties if airlines lose luggage

d) provide strong penalties if an airline allows too much luggage in the
passenger compartment

In Japan, having lots of luggage in overhead bins is rare. However, I've never
been inconvenienced by lost luggage, or had to wait very long (if at all) for
luggage at the carousel.

If the airplane was a commercial building, it seems likely that the overhead
bins would be banned by fire code.

------
lutorm
This is a sobering reminder that keeping something like
[https://cooltravelstuff.com/product/pocket-smoke-
mask/](https://cooltravelstuff.com/product/pocket-smoke-mask/) in your carryon
may save your life if you have the misfortune to end up in a situation like
this.

There have been several accidents where passengers perished in an otherwise
survivable situation due to smoke inhalation. The most well-known example is
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airtours_Flight_28M](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airtours_Flight_28M)
which had to abort a takeoff due to an engine fire where leaked fuel ended up
quickly burning through the fuselage in a similar manner to what appears to
have happened here.

Whether you think the risk is worth the hassle is up to you to decide.

------
dvcrn
Would being able to lock overhead compartments remotely solve some of these
issues? Have a hardware switch somewhere for staff for emergencies to
literally make it impossible for people to get their stuff.

I kind of thought something like this was already possible but never gave it
more thought

~~~
crooked-v
That sounds like it would lead to people blindly smacking at the overhead
compartments in a panic when their brain gets stuck in a loop at "step 2, get
bag". Sudden operational mode changes in emergencies have a long history of
causing that sort of brain shutdown.

------
pierre_d528
Basic Laws Of Human Stupidity

[http://harmful.cat-v.org/people/basic-laws-of-human-
stupidit...](http://harmful.cat-v.org/people/basic-laws-of-human-stupidity/)

~~~
crooked-v
That needs a sixth law: "in emergencies, most people turn into stupid people".

------
mcsoft
Official sources deny it, from Wikipedia Aeroflot 1492:

The information that evacuation was delayed because some passengers grabbed
their baggage have not been confirmed. According to TASS's law enforcement
source the majority of passengers in the tail end of the aircraft had
practically no chance of rescue. "This is evidenced by the position of the
bodies of many passengers who were found in the tail of the aircraft. They did
not even have time to unfasten their seat belts, they died of poisoning in
their seats. Someone might have lost consciousness when the plane hit the
runway. The causes of death of all the victims are now established" \- said
the source. He added that the passengers from the tail section of the
aircraft, who managed to escape, moved to the front of the aircraft even
before it stopped.[10] According to witnesses some baggage fell from overhead
compartments during the hard landing and passengers removed them in order to
free the passage.[11]

------
wtdata
Companies are also at fault for keep cramping the seats and putting heavy fees
in checked luggage so that everyone ends up only taking hand luggage.

Regulations are needed.

------
logifail
> The briefings need to be shorter and more concise, and this needs to be a
> part of them

This.

Instead we get airlines making [un]funny short films stuffed with celebrities
(yes, I'm looking at you, BA) because their marketing department knows it's
sure-fire PR and they'll get tens of millions of clicks/views/shares on social
media out of it.

<sigh>

~~~
Gys
I normally never pay attention to the briefings because I just heard too many
of them. But the BA is funny. Works for me.

More general about the briefings: The explanation of the life vest seems to
take most of the time. I often wonder how many airplane accidents involved
landing on water, making that instruction worth having every single time.
Maybe someone knows ?

~~~
unreal37
Also, how to open and close a seat belt. Do we need that?

~~~
outworlder
_sigh_ yes

I had to help a passenger once. I didn't think it was important before that.

------
Ugohcet
Here is an interview with one of the survivors:
[https://meduza.io/en/feature/2019/05/07/i-was-the-last-
one-w...](https://meduza.io/en/feature/2019/05/07/i-was-the-last-one-walking-
out-there-was-no-one-behind-me)

TLDR: news about passengers taking luggage and blocking the evacuation are
probably fake, most of the people who died couldn't evacuate because they died
from CO-poisoning in seconds.

------
petre
Maybe the overheads compartment should lock and remain locked in the event of
an accident so that people are forced to leave some of their carry-ons on the
plane.

------
est
I hope these cases could be added to flight safety manuals, when and where
this accident happened, how many people died and most importantly, why.

This could be so much better than a simple "Don't bring your luggage during an
emergency exit" sentence.

------
kranner
It may be time to start prosecuting people that carry anything out during an
emergency evacuation. A heavy fine (at least) seems a reasonable price to
avoid loss of life in future.

~~~
alexis_fr
People carry their luggage because they know it will take years before they
get reimbursed, and often they remain stranded in the foreign city with no
passport. You need to ensure there is no incentive to keep your luggage,
otherwise people will do it no matter the fine.

~~~
kranner
So jail time then. People can learn to keep their passports on their persons
to avoid jail time for putting it in the carry-on and taking the carry-on.

~~~
alexis_fr
Sounds fair to me. Save time by carrying your luggage at risk of others, spend
it in jail, for risking/causing the death of others.

~~~
RandomBacon
A passport in your pocket is not "carrying your luggage".

The comment even says to not put the passport in the carry-on.

There is no need to be disengenious.

------
chmike
It might help if the pilots could lock and unlock the luggage stores. This
would prevent anybody to get at them in emergency evacuation situation.

------
ars
I know not to, and yet, knowing that, I probably would anyway. Sigh.

Mostly because I don't feel like it would slow me down. Even though I know
intellectually it would.

\-------

Airplanes need wider aisles. That's all. It's as simple as that. The ones they
have now are just too narrow.

Does it really cost that much to increase space? Isn't the main operating cost
of a plane weight, not volume?

~~~
afthonos
The surface area increases with the square of linear dimensions. So increasing
aisle space meaningfully would make planes significantly heavier—unless you’re
suggesting making seats narrower to compensate.

~~~
ars
> The surface area increases with the square of linear dimensions

That's for a ball. A cylinder does not increase that way.

Plus you only need to increase the width, not the height. So the surface areas
goes up as twice the linear dimension, which I don't think would be
significantly heavier, just a bit incrementally heavier.

~~~
afthonos
Fair enough. I would say another likely issue is that of the highway problem:
you make wider aisles—and now people think they can _definitely_ take their
stuff.

------
amelius
Solution: during the safety briefing, there should be a statement about
bringing bags during an evacuation, and they should mention a fine on the
order of tens of thousands of dollars for not complying.

------
deanclatworthy
Simple solution, digital locks that are able to be activated either by the
cabin crew manually, or by the pilot automatically as a result of some
controls that indicate there is a problem.

~~~
Piskvorrr
Anytime a programmer sees a non-technological issue, they think "I know, I'll
use computers!" Now they have two problems. (With apologies to JZ et al.)

------
mavdi
I was watching the evacuation video and as soon as I saw an idiot going down
the slides with 3 bags I realised the death toll would be unnecessarily high.
It’s safe to say those 3 bags cost 3 lives or more. What utter selfishness and
stupidity.

~~~
jyriand
Don’t be so quick to judge and call them idiots. In a panic situation you can
act irrationaly.

~~~
cmurf
People who go into some kind of dumbshit mode where they violate a rather
basic social contract, by clearly indicating higher value for their crap than
human lives? Yes, I'm getting a sense of acting irrationally right now: how
about assaulting and trampling them? Hmm, small problem, while they deserve
that and I think it would be completely ethical, their body will be yet
another obstruction that will potentially cost others their lives.

~~~
crooked-v
You seem to be under the assumption that people in a true emergency situation
have the mental coherency to even actively consider their own safety. The
reason airline safety rules are so often repeated is that it gets people
acting on 'automatic' without thinking about it, and even then there are
various documented cases where airplane emergency survivors just sat in their
seats without doing anything until someone told them to get up and off the
plane.

------
jyriand
Was the pilot also deadly stupid by trying to land the plane without releasing
the fuel first? As I understand very few pilots have the experience to do
that.

~~~
Avalaxy
Not all airplanes can dump their fuel. Only the bigger ones can. I once had to
fly circles around an airport for 5 hours to burn up the fuel, because the
airplane couldn't dump it.

~~~
goodcanadian
They generally only dump fuel over the ocean. Not great from an environmental
perspective, but at least it isn't landing on people's houses or farm land.

~~~
RandomBacon
They generally dump over the ocean because there is less air traffic there,
nothing to do with the fuel itself.

Jet fuel disapates in a few thousand feet. You won't notice it if a jet dumps
fuel over you.

------
misja
Since training and education does not have any effect, isn't it time to make
it a criminal offense to take your belongings when you are evacuated in an
emergency situation?

~~~
unreal37
If the plane was on fire, filled with smoke, I don't think the risk of
"criminal offense" is going to change anyone's behavior.

It's a run for your life at that point.

------
scotty79
Simple rule, in case of evacuation all luggage carried by evacuated people
will be confiscated and destroyed (or returned after paying 5 years average
salary to leave a loophole for rare cases of really valuable luggage).

All luggage recovered from the plane after evacuation will be given back to
owners.

~~~
systemtest
Better solution: After the evacuation, make them put the luggage back into the
overhead bins.

