
Driverless buses hit the streets of Sion - jacinda
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/hop-on-board_driverless-buses-hit-the-streets-of-sion/41846698
======
trgn
I love this approach. It would be great to have 100s of these on more or less
predefined trajectories, but without a set schedule. Just press a button and
one shows up a few minutes later, perhaps with already some passengers going
similar routes. It could help anchor urban development, something a pure self
driving car would not too, and the absence of a set schedule removes the
biggest drawback of public transportation. They can also just use existing
roads, no need to construct a separate track. I hope these things would help
introduce affordable public transportation in many US cities, and actually be
useful and practical.

~~~
kuschku
> the absence of a set schedule removes the biggest drawback of public
> transportation

I’d argue that having no schedule is even worse.

With a set schedule, I can just go to the stop, wait a minute, and a bus will
come – most lines are running every 5 or 10 minutes anyway (or 15 to 20min in
the suburbs).

With this, the situation would get a lot worse, I’d have higher waiting times,
less of a guarantee that one would come (what if there’s not enough demand?),
etc.

~~~
jfoutz
With an uber like indicator of wait time, it seems like it would be tolerable.
If a bus is guaranteed to show up in 20 minutes, i can make use of those 20
minutes.

Fundamentally though, it's a density/diffusion problem. Having enough rides
available in the right spots is tough. Especially when, say 10% of riders go
way off in the sticks, with no need for pickups out there. You want a nice
random distribution of rider routes, but really, people go east in the
morning, and west in the evening (for example), so a lot of capacity is unused
just getting back to where demand is.

tricky tricky problem. schedules and defined routes are part of the solution,
for sure.

~~~
kuschku
Indeed. A uber-like waiting indicator is actually already existing in about
all cities – either per app or website (like [http://kvg-
kiel.de/fahrplan/echtzeit/#?stop=52](http://kvg-
kiel.de/fahrplan/echtzeit/#?stop=52) ) or as an actual display at the bus stop
(like [http://www.kvg-kiel.de/yaml/gfx/submenu/fahrplan.jpg](http://www.kvg-
kiel.de/yaml/gfx/submenu/fahrplan.jpg) ).

And many cities already have on-demand busses (mine calls them ALiTa or
"Anruflinientaxi", pretty much meaning "taxi that operate as bus line on
demand via calling a phone number".

But an especially important part, as you mentioned, is knowing for sure when
the next bus will come – even without looking at the display – so you can plan
for that, and use that time.

~~~
pampa
In Moscow all buses are equipped with GPS/GLONASS trackers and there is an
app, Yandex.Transport, that shows you where all the buses are. It is hard to
keep a precise schedule in traffic, but with the app you always know how far
away the next bus is.

~~~
kuschku
That’s what they do here as well, but the app just calculates how far the
busses are off schedule based on the GLONASS and GPS data.

If you look at the raw data for each stop, you see this: [http://www.kvg-
kiel.de/internetservice/services/passageInfo/...](http://www.kvg-
kiel.de/internetservice/services/passageInfo/stopPassages/stop?stop=52&mode=departure)

    
    
          "plannedTime": "11:00",

vs.

    
    
          "actualTime": "11:02",
    

This is a pretty awesome solution that ensures the numbers actually are
useful, and that everyone can easily understand them (without having to look
at a map and find where the route is).

------
godzillabrennus
The tech is neat and I'm sure this is just the beginning of these kinds of
driverless vehicles. Dubai even has driverless cars on the road.

What's really scary is that all signs point to the end of the blue collar
workforce being near. Drones to do construction, to operate the trains, planes
and automobiles, so that us and our cargo get where they need to go. What's
the plan for replacing work after this new era arrives?

Futurists popularized that we would have robot servants for generations and
it's becoming true. They didn't popularize the notion that 1% of the
population would own all the robots.

~~~
loup-vaillant
> _What 's the plan for replacing work after this new era arrives?_

Who cares? Anybody sees a problem with automating away so many jobs that
unemployment rises to 50% and beyond? Unemployment is _not_ a problem. It's
how we deal with it that is. You just can't expect everyone to work when
machines do all the work.

So… how about we all work _less_? What about a 4 days work-week, or even 3?
How about automating so much work that voluntary community service becomes
enough?

We need to think about it soon, because the current model is not pretty: just
let the jobless starve, and lock them up (or out) when they start to demand
jobs or (gasp!) money. And if things get ugly, send the army bots. "Shoot on
sight" is pretty easy to automate, if you don't care to discriminate.

> _hey didn 't popularize the notion that 1% of the population would own all
> the robots._

The heart of the problem, really. To this, I see only one solution: abolishing
lucrative property, communist scare crow be dammed.

~~~
alphapapa
> Who cares? Anybody sees a problem with automating away so many jobs that
> unemployment rises to 50% and beyond? Unemployment is not a problem. It's
> how we deal with it that is. You just can't expect everyone to work when
> machines do all the work.

It's amazing how some humans seem to have a complete lack of understanding of
human nature.

Imagine a world in which 50% of people worked, and the other half lived on
basic welfare income. How do you think the 50% that worked would feel about
the other half? Do you think perhaps they might feel used? Do you think they
might feel like slave labor? Do you think they might feel like the other half
was taking advantage of them? Do you think they might be resentful of their
earnings being taken away and given to people who don't work?

How are things going right now when people have this idea that there's a 99:1
division in society? How do you think people would get along with a 50:50 hard
division? Can you imagine a better setup for societal unrest and class
warfare? Can you imagine a society in which half the population thinks they're
entitled to have the other half work to support them?

It'd be like a modern-day version of slavery, setting society up for a civil
war. Communism used "the workers!" as one of its foundational elements--now
imagine a world in which "the workers" are legally half of the population, and
they decide they're tired of being taken advantage of, and they decide to
assert themselves and their rights, go on strike, refuse to work, even revolt.
And imagine the other half of the population, which thinks they're entitled to
be supported by the other half, decides to assert themselves and demand what
they think they're entitled to (if they're still capable of doing anything
besides sitting in their VR headsets).

This is not wild imagination, this is history and human nature applied to your
ideas, their logical conclusion.

> I see only one solution: abolishing lucrative property

Want to have a nice house with a yard to raise your family in? Nope. Panelák
for you.

Want to work hard, save up, and buy a little cabin on the lake for your
retirement? Nope. Too lucrative.

> communist scare crow be dammed.

Approximately one hundred million people (100,000,000 people) have been killed
by Communist regimes.

But we're better humans now, right? We'll get it right this time. Just need to
put the right people in charge and everything will be fine. Communism doesn't
always turn corrupt, I mean, just look at the present-day Communist regimes of
China, Cuba, and North Korea. Those governments aren't corrupt or evil, and
their citizens are free, healthy, and happy. Nothing to be afraid of. Damn the
scarecrows, full speed ahead!

~~~
onion2k
_Imagine a world in which 50% of people worked, and the other half lived on
basic welfare income. How do you think the 50% that worked would feel about
the other half?_

The point is that people would choose whether to work or not. Everyone would
have that choice - live on a basic, low income, or top it up by working. If
you've chosen to work then it's unlikely you'll resent those who choose not
to.

Furthermore, even if that wasn't the case, think about the number of people
who hate their jobs and resent going to work now. Getting that down to 50% of
people hating their job would be an improvement.

~~~
alphapapa
You're not thinking logically or rationally. Money does not grow on trees.
Economies only work when people do. Taxes come from people working and
spending (except property tax, which comes from simply existing). Without
enough people working, there would not be sufficient taxes to support the
people who are not working.

For example, look at Social Security: as the population ages, fewer people are
working while more people are receiving. Of course, the Fed can literally
create money with the press of a key on a keyboard, but eventually that bubble
bursts and takes the economy with it.

And all of this is subordinate to human nature, because that rules over
everything we do. And basic human nature shows that people fare better and are
happier and healthier when they are able to provide for themselves. People are
also lazy and will mostly take the path of least resistance. Put those two
issues together with a world in which people don't have to work, and you have
a recipe for disaster.

If your desire for a UBI is driven by compassion, then it is misguided,
because it would not be good for people who are healthy and able to support
themselves. For people who are disabled, that's a different story, but that
wouldn't be a _U_ BI.

------
kristopolous
This is 6 months old... Anyone know what the track record of the bus has been
in that time?

~~~
jacalata
I can't find any more recent news, or mentions on the Sion public transport
site, so my guess is they are still in testing and their planned rollout in
"spring 2016" has been delayed.

------
Futurebot
Singapore is another country testing driverless buses/pods and trucks:
[http://www.reuters.com/article/singapore-transport-
driverles...](http://www.reuters.com/article/singapore-transport-driverless-
idUSL3N1280S920151012)

------
darawk
This strikes me as an interesting approach that could maybe be generalized by
a company like Uber.

We know some of the biggest problems with self-driving cars are:

    
    
      - Needing extremely precise, up to date maps
      - Inclement weather / conditions
    

Which suggests to me that if you chose a particular city, mapped it out
extensively, and then only allowed these cars on the road during good weather
conditions...you could deploy these things much, much more rapidly

And of course since consumers wouldn't buy a car that they can't use much of
the time or take outside the city limits, the natural use-case of this is as
an on-demand taxi service, like Uber or Lyft.

------
icefo
Never thought that I would learn something about my small school town on HN !

It's true that you can go almost everywhere on foot in a reasonable amount of
time but some interesting places (for example pond where you can do BBC and
drink) are remote and walking one hour just to get there sucks. Ordering a bus
to get you and your friends there would be perfect

------
elorant
We have one of those in Greece too.

[http://www.ekathimerini.com/201509/article/ekathimerini/comm...](http://www.ekathimerini.com/201509/article/ekathimerini/community/driverless-
bus-on-the-way-in-trikala)

------
ratsimihah
People like Charlie Miller must be delighted.

------
Animats
There have been a few systems like this at airports, but this may be the first
one on public streets.

~~~
jimktrains2
On a separated, fixed guideway it's not too difficult to have an autonomous
systems. Airports, metros, and even "personal people movers" like in
Morgantown all work without a driver on board. As you said, moving to the
chaos that is a street is a different story.

~~~
Animats
There are getting to be many little systems of slow autonomous short buses.[1]
These will probably be all over campuses big enough to have shuttle buses
soon.

This may be the first way autonomous driving is deployed. Little buses go to
destinations nearby, or take you to a station for larger and faster transit.
Most trips would be very short, 1 km or so. The big advantage of driverless is
that many little buses don't cost more per seat than a few big ones. A city
bus costs $300K to $500K for a 50-seat bus. If somebody can build an 8
passenger autonomous bus for $75K, that's a win all by itself.

[1] [http://gizmodo.com/the-uss-first-autonomous-buses-will-
drive...](http://gizmodo.com/the-uss-first-autonomous-buses-will-drive-around-
a-cali-1734989938)

------
fiatjaf
Unionized drivers, suffer!

