
Paul Buchheit: The two paths to success - paul
http://paulbuchheit.blogspot.com/2011/02/two-paths-to-success.html
======
inmygarage
My favorite story from the Quora discussion on Chua's article
([http://www.quora.com/Parenting/Is-Amy-Chua-right-when-she-
ex...](http://www.quora.com/Parenting/Is-Amy-Chua-right-when-she-explains-Why-
Chinese-Mothers-Are-Superior-in-an-op-ed-in-the-Wall-Street-Journal)) was this
one: "At one point, I attended a "piano camp" with other equally talented
white students, and what struck me is that those students actually practiced
for hours because they loved music, and genuinely practiced for hour after
exhausting hour because they couldn't get enough of the emotional expression
that piano afforded them. Piano held none of that for me."

I think it's obvious when someone is truly passionate about something versus
just doing it because they think it will get them another carrot.

Is it possible, though, to have a functional society where everyone follows
his or her passion? I believe it is, but would be curious to hear thoughts.

~~~
klbarry
Impossible. The supply is already far, far higher than demand for certain
professions - acting and basketball, for instance.

~~~
paul
You incorrectly assume those are the only activities that those people could
possibly enjoy doing. Part of the trick is finding the overlap between
enjoyable and productive.

~~~
rdouble
I think what he meant is that there are many more people for whom basketball
is their passion than can actually make a living with basketball. Therefore,
it's impossible to have a society where everyone truly follows their passion.

~~~
paul
They can find a different passion. Basketball didn't even exist a few hundred
years ago. People have the potential to enjoy more than one thing. Having the
mindset of finding ways to enjoy things is the key, not mindlessly pursing the
first "passion" you encounter.

~~~
rdouble
Having such a mindset is a great thing. For most, firing up a new passion is
easier said than done.

~~~
nostrademons
I'm curious - how many people have only one passion?

I remember that when I was a kid, I wanted to be an aeronautical engineer.
Then I wanted to be a naval architect. (Well, technically I didn't know the
names for either of those, I just knew I wanted to design planes and ships.) I
played violin and clarinet, I wanted to be in a rock band, I liked computer
programming, I fancied myself a novelist (even though I hated writing), I
wanted to be a famous theoretical physicist, and I was going to make a few
million dollars founding a software startup.

I ended up a computer programmer, because that was the optimal intersection
between what I wanted to be and what other people would pay for. Although that
software startup may yet happen.

But I continued - and sometimes _still_ continue - the other things quite far
along. I made All-State Orchestra in violin, and continued to play throughout
college, and still occasionally pick it up. I nearly ended up a physics major;
I didn't switch away from it until my last semester. Now that I have no
immediate plans to become a writer, writing is kinda fun.

Is this unusual? Do people get "stuck" on one dream and then ignore everything
else that they might enjoy?

~~~
kentosi
I have different goals/passions that don't seem to relate: programming,
fitness, speaking different languages.

Often, my greatest anxiety episodes arise from thinking of how I can balance
these, and have a social life and do the laundry at the same time.

I find articles like these great, because they get me just that one step
closer to learning this how to figure it all out.

------
uuilly
The most depressing people I know were the results of either laissez fair
parenting or overbearing parenting. If you let a kid do what he wants, he'll
eat coco-puffs, watch TV and eventually turn to drugs and booze. If you're
constantly on top of him, and if he doesn't burn out, he'll work incredibly
hard for a goal that means nothing to him.

I know 30 year olds who can't put a month of work together. I also know 30
year olds who have no idea why they became bankers and they ask their mom
permission to switch jobs. Each one is depressing and there is a balance.

~~~
nicholasjbs
I respectfully disagree in that I don't think the laissez fair approach
necessarily leads to doing nothing but watching TV, etc. I was given
tremendous freedom to explore and learn about what I wanted from a very young
age on (and I was pretty much 100% in control of my educational priorities
from about 12 on). My love of video games led to a love of programming and a
general love of tech, which has led to entrepreneurship.

~~~
nostrademons
His claim was that "The most depressing people [I] know were the results of
either laissez fair parenting or overbearing parenting", not that "laissez
fair parenting and overbearing parenting lead to the most depressing people
[I] know".

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent>

~~~
nicholasjbs
Fair enough.

I was more responding to the "there is a balance" comment, which I took to
mean that uuilly thinks it's better on the whole if children are given some
amount of freedom but are still forced to do certain things. That's the idea I
was really trying to challenge, though that's admittedly not what I wrote in
my first sentence. My comment was too hasty.

~~~
uuilly
That's exactly what I was trying to say. It's true, some people come out of
the womb requiring very little discipline. My sister, for example, would yell
from her car seat, "Quiz me!" And we had her doing multiplication tables
before she could read. She was her HS valedictorian, went to Harvard, played
two varsity sports and is a VP at a major Investment bank and she's still in
her 20's. She never needed any discipline and probably could have been given
her own apartment at age 13.

I on the other hand, was a dreamer who seldom knew which day it was and
frequently left for school 30 minutes late with only one shoe on. I hesitate
to think where I'd be without my parent's prodding.

If the kid doesn't need prodding, then life just got easier for you. But to
allow a kid to rot in the hope that one day he'll sprout wings is bad
parenting. From my experience, kids who require no prodding are outliers.

~~~
nicholasjbs
The absence of force doesn't mean neglect. When I say children should be free
to explore and learn what they want, I don't mean that parents have no role to
play in their children's education, or that every (or any) child would
flourish if left alone on an island. Parents have roles to play as
facilitators, mentors, etc. I think parents should _introduce_ their children
to lots of things, but I think they should _force_ them to do little or
nothing. Depending on your definition of "prodding," we might be in agreement
here.

I agree different things work for different people, and there's probably a
spectrum of how "naturally" disciplined people are.

That said, I think people are naturally curious and don't, at least at the
beginning of their lives, gravitate towards sitting around and doing nothing.
Toddlers are naturally motivated to learn to walk and talk and are almost
endlessly inquisitive.

Over time, this curiosity seems to diminish. I think formal schooling, which
emphasizes external motivation over internal motivation, is largely to blame.

I might be more naturally disciplined than most, but I think a big part of
that comes from not having the first decades of my life mapped out for me.

~~~
kenjackson
_Over time, this curiosity seems to diminish._

I really don't think it does. But I think what is valued becomes more narrow.
Being curious about listening to different music bands at age 16 isn't valued
as much as being curious about math. Being curious about girls isn't valued as
much as being curious about programming. Being curious about knowing the stats
of every baseball player isn't valued as much as being curious about
Shakeaspeare.

People who are curious about certain things are valued, while people are
curious about other things are valued less (or rather their curiosity is
valued less).

------
coffeemug
_What Chinese parents understand is that nothing is fun until you're good at
it._

Whoever wrote this must not be very good at what they do (assuming they agree
with the opinion). Programming was an enormous amount of fun for me, I would
have never gotten good at it if it weren't. In fact, everything I ever got
good at was tremendous fun. Sometimes it was work and pure misery, but for the
most part it was fun. Perhaps others tick differently from me, but based on
conversations I had with people that are very good at what they do, I doubt
it.

~~~
paulitex
In fact it's often _more_ fun at the beginning. As coders, we have to
constantly be learning new things - new languages, frameworks, APIS, etc...
more than most professions I know. Personally I think getting that first
little project done, a first proof of concept, in a new
(language/framework/api) to be exhilarating - probably more fun than almost
anything afterwards.

~~~
math
Yes. I have to say though that after 20 years of exhilaration, the buzz is
getting less and less for me each time. I think because the process of
learning another new language, framework, API etc is now no longer new.

------
paulitex
"One of the problems I've faced throughout life is that I'm kind of lazy, or
maybe I lack will power or discipline or something."

\- The guy who invented Gmail and founded FriendFeed

~~~
nandemo
I'm not sure if I should be depressed or cheered up by that. Maybe depressed
because compared to Buchheit I must be super lazy. Maybe cheered up because it
might be that I'm no lazier than him, and might be able to accomplish great
things just as well.

------
SMrF
Ironically my mostly intrinsically motivated life was extrinsically validated
while reading this piece.

------
zachallaun
I'm not lazy, I'm just _intrinsically motivated_. I love that
characterization.

In all seriousness, this article hit home for me. I went through high school
bored and came out with well above average, but not stellar, grades. I was
accepted into a good enough college (where I'm currently enrolled) and have
plenty of time to pursue my own interests, one of which is launching a
startup. Which I'm doing.

------
yarapavan
I love this:

 _It's often said that people become entrepreneurs because they can't handle a
regular job. Perhaps these people are simply too "defective" to fit into any
mold, or maybe they lack the extrinsic motivation necessary to care about
bosses, performance reviews, and other things which are so important for
success in the corporate environment._

------
ajju
Great post. The reference to Alfie Kohn is worth following up on. His book
"Punished by Rewards" changed my world view about what motivates people.

~~~
nicholasjbs
I'll give another vote for Alfie Kohn.

Also, if you're interested in this stuff, check out John Holt. He explored the
ideas Paul talks about and advocated a type of homeschooling called
unschooling, which is student-led and based largely on intrinsic motivation.

------
pyjug
I _like_ to think I'm intrinsically motivated, because I don't like to do the
boring, repetitive things at work. On the other hand, I haven't done anything
creative myself either. Jeez, I'm confused.

------
crjvice
The cultural environment has a lot do with it too my friend. As a foreigner,
my parents always taught education is the key to success. Obviously, they also
forced me play the violin which I profoundly disliked.lol. However, being
foreign, as we see the U.S as the land of opportunities, our parents want to
make sure that we have a better future than they had back in the motherland.
Thereby come the pressure our parents put upon us. Don't you think it is also
important to see life from Chua's lenses?

------
derwiki
glad to hear paul thinks my alma mater (CWRU) is 'good enough' ;-)

~~~
mechanical_fish
It's as much of a statement about the inanity of the college-prestige game as
it is about our alma mater. CWRU _is_ more than good enough. As a school. As a
brand name with snob appeal... I have to agree with Paul.

~~~
derwiki
I say that a little tongue in cheek -- regardless of what Paul thinks about
Case, he was certainly an inspiration to me, proving that what you actually do
is more important than where you came from.

------
sanj
This rings true to me, and I'm finally following my own intrinsic motivation.

But it can be _really_ hard to find a job that lets you do this. If you do,
the first step is to realize you're in a rare position and take advantage of
it.

I'm lucky to have a work environment (go ahead and ask) and a home environment
that lets me follow this path to the extent possible.

------
briancooley
The final paragraph resonates with me. Of all the reasons I have ever
considered for finding a more enjoyable but potentially less gainful way to
make a dollar, the idea that my four-year-old is watching me both frightens me
and builds my resolve the most.

------
toadi
People tend to keep telling you have to follow your passion. I'm happy the guy
who picks up my garbish every week is doing his job. Will he do it with great
passion? Di I care.

Luckily not everyone follows his passion but brings food on the table.

------
stevenj
I'd be interested in reading paul's thoughts on creativity.

~~~
brlewis
This is close to what you want, since a hack is inherently creative:
[http://paulbuchheit.blogspot.com/2009/10/applied-
philosophy-...](http://paulbuchheit.blogspot.com/2009/10/applied-philosophy-
aka-hacking.html)

------
macco
I don't believe in the Chinese model, too. But I think it is hard to say what
is right or wrong. A lot of really succesful people were forced to work (z.B.
Andre Agassi, Paco de Lucia, Mozart ...). Probably you need both for exelence:
1\. you need to absolutely love what you do 2\. but sometimes you need some
preasure to stick to it.

------
6ren
_On not wanting to amount to anything_ , chapter 33, _The Tao Is Silent_ ,
Raymond Smullyan, p.150-4

------
robryan
I guess as a parent you don't really want to encourage your kid to take it
easy in high school if they do want to get into college as they might take it
to easy. Best I guess to encourage them to do their best without being
overbearing so they will only slack off a bit under that level.

------
alikamp
Nice post, but if you just applied yourself more and not be in a rush it would
have been better C+

------
stretchwithme
I cannot upvote this enough.

------
tastybites
I wish this tiger mom thing would just die. It's so embarrassing for Asian
people that didn't have insane parents.

~~~
dailo10
Not to mention the fact that in the book she ultimately rejects the harsh,
forced approach.

~~~
nandemo
That confirms my suspicion that Amy Chua's article was a most fine piece of
trolling. She wrote outrageous things in the article thereby trolling
thousands of parents into buying her book, i.e. the WSJ article was "link-
bait" to her book. Even if you're a non-parent you might be drawn by the
_someone-is-wrong-on-internet_ effect into criticizing her claims, but she's
got a simple answer ready for you: "buy my book".

~~~
SoftwareMaven
From what I've heard her say, she didn't do the final edits and was surprised
by the WSJ take on her book as well (likely, her publisher was involved,
though). She was on Colbert last week and seemed quite reasonable. She
explicitly states it isn't a parenting book, it is a memoir about parenting,
immigrants, and culture.

~~~
dpritchett
That's what I'd say too. It's nice to have a fall guy.

------
farout
Thank you. This is so true: "It takes time to find your internal voice, learn
when to trust it, and stop fearing outside opinion."

When I was young I did as I was told. It was easiest way for people to leave
me alone so I would have time to do the things I wanted.

Later I always wondered why I was never competing for prizes or honed a
specific skill; I was having too much fun doing things that others could care
less about. It was a great way of learning about being comfortable with
myself.

What great blog post. So well written, I am envious.

~~~
nicholasjbs
Some of the saddest people I know are people who achieved a lot in high
school/college (prestigious school, high grades, awards, etc) but were always
chasing goals set by their parents. In their post-college life, they've found
themselves aimless because they quite literally don't know what they love.

Meanwhile, my friends who had the freedom to explore and learn what they're
passionate about are much happier today.

(Yeah, I know, plural of anecdote is not data, etc, etc. But my sample of kids
who were allowed to do whatever they want is slightly larger than the norm
here because I was unschooled my whole life and so I'm in the position of
knowing a lot of 20-something unschoolers, in addition to my peers who went to
public/private school.)

------
farout
At Exxon, they used to switch people every several years. The way it worked
was:

year 1 - learn to do this new position

year 2 - actually do it correctly

year 3 - now that you can do it correctly, can you improve it? Do you enjoy it
and want to stay doing it?

~~~
Create
This is the typical anglo-saxon management method used in multinational
companies (like English as language).

The french call it mobilité forcée, and some of the consequences were exposed
for example at France Telecom. It is a manipulative oppression method of
working people by killing them existentially along with their family (i.e.
your kid will have to change school every 2 years, along with all the
friends). This could only work if it is voluntary (you don't loose your job
and outlook if you don't play along), but then again the goal of puppeteers is
completely the opposite.

~~~
dpritchett
The enslavement aspect only works when your employees never seriously think of
taking a job across the street. It's pretty easy to spot the career
developers, career managers, and the just-passing-through types at a big
company. Interestingly, all three types tend think their chosen path is the
best and safest.

~~~
Create
Taking a job across the street means taking up another profession. This is the
whole point: due to the economies of scale, taking a job across the street
means literally restarting your career if you are "lucky" enough to find one
and almost your entire life if you are less "in luck". A comparable job would
be in another state, or even continent. Hence forced mobility.

It is all about making sure cogwheels are replaceable by ensuring they are
actually replaced on schedule.

