

Borgata casino lawsuit: Phil Ivey cheated, won $9.6M? - gojomo
http://news.yahoo.com/borgata-casino-lawsuit-gambler-cheated-won-9-6m-204337332.html;_ylt=AwrBJR_PZ0hT9nwAE._QtDMD
Defective decks had non-uniform edge pattern, dealer rotated certain cards at Ivey&#x27;s open request, mechanical shuffler left cards in same orientation... allowing Ivey to read some obscured&#x2F;upcoming cards.
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ghshephard
It blows my mind that any casino in the world could be a victim of edge
sorting.

See: [http://apheat.net/2012/06/28/what-is-edge-
sorting/](http://apheat.net/2012/06/28/what-is-edge-sorting/) for details, but
basically, the Borgata Casino was pretty much grossly incompetent if they were
dealing asymmetric decks.

~~~
mwill
I imagine it's a case of the casino's just assuming the card manufacturer is
up to spec, and having no, or limited in house quality check on the cards. I
imagine most people who handle the cards would look for markings made by
players, and assume everything else is as it should be. Looks like the
manufacturer in this case is already being sued by a couple of casinos
(Borgata included), and I imagine more are incoming.

~~~
ghshephard
Reading through discussions of "edge sorting" \- it turns out that most decks
are manufactured with an asymmetry, and the simple act of cutting the deck and
doing a "turn" prior to sorting dealing, prevents an asymmetric pattern that
can be leveraged by players. This was just poor practice by the casino - you
would think that the various Pit Bosses would ensure that the dealers were
turning the cards...

------
mwill
Around the same time the casino say this happened, Crockfords Casino in London
were withholding winnings from Ivey, claiming he used the same method, edge
sorting, to win around $10M playing a variant of Baccarat. Last year, he
admitted to noticing a flaw in the cards and exploiting it, but asserted it
wasn't cheating and the Casino should have noticed it.

~~~
nabla9
I always wondered how one of the best professional poker players in the world
would be so big degen that he would routinely throw away hundreds of thousands
in card games where he could not win.

This and the Crockfords Casino incident make his behavior more understandable.
It seems that he did not really cheat, , he just exploited flaws.

~~~
mwill
To be fair, Ivey is supposedly a total degen outside of Poker, plays craps,
makes prop bets, bets on sports etc. There's stories floating around the web
of him betting on coin tosses, for example.

It wouldn't surprise me if he was simply playing Baccarat genuinely, noticed
the possibility for edge sorting, and went for it, then looked for other
casinos that had the same problem.

~~~
Sambdala
A friend of his has claimed privately that he takes advantage of specific
lossback deals that certain casinos give certain high rollers, and this gives
him a positive expectation at craps at least some of the time.

However, it's hard to know how much truth there is to that.

~~~
parasubvert
This is likely true considering how low the house edge is on both Baccarat
(1.06% on the banker) and basic craps (don't) pass/come with full 3-4-5 odds
(around 0.37%) [1]

Any small positive edge in lossback, card or dice placement will lead to
advantage. Some of them can't do math as well as others, apparently. This is
how Don Johnson (not the actor) broke a few casinos several years back,
including - surprise! - Borgata. [2]

[1] [http://wizardofodds.com/gambling/house-
edge/](http://wizardofodds.com/gambling/house-edge/) [2]
[http://m.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/04/the-man-
wh...](http://m.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/04/the-man-who-broke-
atlantic-city/308900/)

------
dustcoin
Phil Ivey is also involved in another lawsuit over a similar issue. In that
case, he was suing the casino after they refused to pay out his winnings due
to accusations of similar "cheating".

In both cases, it appears that casino staff voluntarily agreed to Ivey's
requests that resulted in him obtaining an edge.

[http://www.pokernews.com/news/2013/09/ivey-claims-he-used-
ed...](http://www.pokernews.com/news/2013/09/ivey-claims-he-used-edge-sorting-
in-7-8-million-lawsuit-with-16301.htm)

------
gojomo
The Ivey Baccarat Hack:

Defective decks had non-uniform edge pattern, dealer rotated certain cards at
Ivey's open request, mechanical shuffler left cards in same orientation...
allowing Ivey to read some obscured/upcoming cards after reshuffles.

~~~
midas007
I say "well played." If this is the case, it seems perfectly fair and their
own fault for not stacking the odds in their favor as is done the other
99.9999% of the time. Fair's fair and it was their own equipment that screwed
up, so I don't see how this could be cheating, it sounds more like sour grapes
from sore losers.

------
tempestn
"The lawsuit claims that Ivey and his companion instructed a dealer to flip
cards in particular ways, depending on whether it was a desirable card in
baccarat."

If that's true, it sounds like a really obvious way to cheat. Maybe he didn't
realize there was actually a specific regulation against it and figured the
worst they could do was kick him out. Otherwise it seems like he'd be a bit
more circumspect.

~~~
DanBC
It seems odd that the dealer would comply with such a request, even if the
dealer has no idea about the law.

~~~
Robadob
Presumably some gamblers have superstitious practises regarding their luck.
It's quite possible the dealer could have seen this as one and assumed it
harmless wanting to keep them playing.

~~~
mwill
Ivey does indeed have a reputation for being superstitious. Worth noting the
stakes for some of these games were in the $50,000 - $100,000 range, per hand.
It's pretty hard to say no to a seemingly harmless request when the stakes are
that high.

~~~
DanBC
I guess, but all the other stuff about cards appears to be tightly regulated.

Interesting to see people fi ding and exploiting these flaws. Surprising that
people are still making casino cards with these backs when this exploit
appears to be known about.

------
fredgrott
The problem is not in edge sorting or taking advantage of it..its the
accusation that Ivey conspired with a dealer to get signaled of specific cards
during the deal.

That very much is somewhat Illegal whether the claim of Ivey's that he
requested automatic shuffling cards is correct or not...at least in the
USA..probably UK as well.

~~~
gojomo
The word 'conspired' makes it sound like a secret arrangement. If I understand
the reports accurately, his requests were made openly to casino personnel,
with no consideration offered to the individual employees. He was tempting the
casino bank itself with, "I'll be a happy high-roller who keeps playing if you
indulge me".

So it starts to look like: the casino, experts in the game with a large staff
that had both the duty and capability to monitor the situation, chose to offer
a game with a positive expectation for Ivey.

------
DanBC
I went to Gemeco website to have a look at the card backs.

[http://www.gemacocards.com/casino/](http://www.gemacocards.com/casino/)

Clicking on the cardback link opens a page which crashes Chrome on iOS.

So, uh, does anyone have a screenshot of the specific backs?

~~~
frik
Screenshot:
[http://s15.postimg.org/iautvy8sr/gemaco_card_patterns.png](http://s15.postimg.org/iautvy8sr/gemaco_card_patterns.png)

from this page: [http://www.gemacocards.com/casino/catalog-flip-
book/?startPa...](http://www.gemacocards.com/casino/catalog-flip-
book/?startPage=8)

------
Confusion
I doubt they can prove anything beyond reasonable doubt. If Ivey did the maths
correctly, and I doubt he hasn't, he can keep claiming he had a few lucky
streaks and knows when to quit. Reasonable doubt.

~~~
Tomte
Reasonable doubt is the standard for burden of proof in criminal cases, not in
civil cases.

