
Spying by N.S.A. Ally Entangled U.S. Law Firm - mudil
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/16/us/eavesdropping-ensnared-american-law-firm.html
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chimeracoder
(Disclaimer: IANAL).

This is incredibly disturbing news (though alas, not surprising).

Attorney-client privilege exists for a reason. Part of that is to protect the
client from lawyers acting in bad faith. But part of that is because the
_entire justice process breaks down_ if defendants can no longer communicate
openly with their lawyers without fear that prosecutors may be able to get
their hands on that same information.

Of course, there are other means of communication besides email (and email was
never the most secure communication medium to begin with), but this still is a
very dangerous step.

~~~
futurehuman
It gets worse. Here's a case showing that this global dragnet has absolutely
nothing to do with terrorism, but corporate espionage:

[http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2013/s3904457.htm](http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2013/s3904457.htm)

"ASIO has cancelled the passport of a retired spy who's preparing to give
evidence in The Hague about what he says was his involvement in a covert
operation to record Timorese ministers and officials in Dili in 2004."

"For some time now the Timorese government has been alleging that the bugging
operation was ordered by then foreign minister Alexander Downer during
negotiations over a treaty governing billions of dollars in gas revenue
between the two countries."

"It's understood the spy decided to blow the whistle when he learned that in
his life after politics, Alexander Downer had become an advisor to Woodside
Petroleum through his lobbying firm, Bespoke Approach."

tl;dr: Foriegn Minister of Australia spied on foreign government for Woodside
Petroleum. Said minister now works for Woodside Petroleum.

~~~
ttctciyf
A piece[1] at emptywheel.net notes that the mention of sigint used in
agricultural trade negotiations around 2004 and suggestively points to a
diplomatic cable[2] discussing strategy for changing the French stance on GM
imports from the US at that time.

If you're interested in this aspect you might like to take a look.

[1] [http://www.emptywheel.net/2014/02/15/since-spying-to-
benefit...](http://www.emptywheel.net/2014/02/15/since-spying-to-benefit-
monsanto-is-not-industrial-espionage-its-okay/)

[2]
[http://wikileaks.org/cable/2007/12/07PARIS4723.html](http://wikileaks.org/cable/2007/12/07PARIS4723.html)

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suprgeek
If the NSA reform is to be meaningful in any way at all there has to be a very
explicit closure of the "Five-Eyes" Loophole.

Something like: The NSA or any other govt. agency cannot
target/encourage/hint/suggest that any agency in the five eyes (or how many
ever lap dog govts. participate) target any American Persons without a
specific warrant. If these agencies do target Americans & the NSA comes to
know they cannot use this information & must ask the agency involved to
destroy it and stop the activity.

Using the Patriot act authorizations which were anti-terrorism motivated to
spy on commercial entities is just a complete betrayal of its intent. The
military-industrial complex is truly frightening in its reach and its greed

~~~
Veratyr
As someone living outside the United States, I'd like there to be protections
for foreigners as well. The U.S. government should not be permitted to spy on
or intercept the communications of any person without due cause (or suggest an
ally do the same).

This is of course different when the U.S. has issued a declaration of war and
is openly hostile towards a country or organization (such as Al Qaeda).

Really, I'd like this to be a proposal at the UN level, ratified by all
civilized countries.

~~~
minimize_me
Well that's an easy workaround - al-Qaeda is anywhere and everywhere so we
have to spy anywhere and everywhere.

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codex
TL;DR Title is misleading, possibly false. The Aussies spied on a trade
negotiation and offered to share the intel with America. It is not known
whether or not the Americans accepted any information which was the result of
spying on Americans, or passed it on to negotiators. We only know they
provided "clear guidance" about what information they would accept.

EDIT: Title fixed.

~~~
jjoonathan
Why did you leave out the quote immediately after that? It's relevant.

> the Australian agency "has been able to continue to cover the talks,
> providing highly useful intelligence for interested US customers"

Whey would they say that the (continued!) intelligence provided by the
Australian agency was "highly useful" if their counsel ruled they couldn't use
it?

~~~
codex
Because there was other intelligence to be gleaned which was _not_ the result
of spying on Americans. Only the law firm was American; the rest of the
parties were not. It's possible (likely?) that the NSA said, "give us
everything with a non-American source" which would keep them within the law. I
have not seen any evidence from Snowden that the NSA deliberately breaks the
laws that bind them, though they make give the law liberal interpretations at
times.

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coldcode
I hope that American companies and law firms, etc., wind up losing massive
business in the future. It's the only way this crap will ever be contained.
Economic pain seems like the only way to get things changed.

~~~
Zigurd
That is happening already. Cisco took a big hit for this reason. However, it
isn't going to become a hemorrhage until some competitor offers and markets an
open and verifiable alternative. You can bet that US diplomacy is working hard
to make sure nobody actually dares sell against NSA back doors.

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grecy
If one were to outline the steps towards a democracy falling, surely this is
in there.

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fit2rule
Time to stop doing business with all US corporations. Until we hurt them where
it counts - the pocketbook - there's no chance for the rest of the world to
recover from this heinous, repressive regimes, effect on our lives...

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5362677_0010
So _THAT 'S_ where clove cigarettes come from!

