
Volkswagen's 261-MPG Diesel-Electric - dpcx
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2013/05/volkswagen-xl1-driven/
======
rrhyne
Clinton was working with the major auto manufacturers to do this years ago.
Each of the big four had models designed and tooling up the plants for
production was to be subsidized.

Bush came in and killed the program in favor of the yet to materialize
hydrogen.

~~~
tassl
Not really commenting on your appreciation (I don't really know the details of
Clinton-Bush-Obama's politiques on electric/hydrogen automobiles) but in the
university where I studied some of my department-mates were working on fuel
cells and their applications.

One of the most interesting (for me) applications was hydrogen fuel cell
vehicles, and I could talk with some of the students involved in that research
about the current state of the technology. I was also fortunate enough to test
one of the vehicles they were using. While I still don't know the technical
details, they mentioned that the main reason the technology is not yet
available (I think Toyota wants to have an hybrid by the end of 2015) was the
lack of investment or the shift of investment to battery powered vehicles.

What was more interesting to me is that the difference between an electric car
and a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle is basically the source of energy used. With
that I don't mean the technology if fully ready; as far as I know there are
still concerns beyond logistics (for example, temperature problems,
security...) but I would say those are part of the novelty of a technology.

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jmj42
Volkswagen has been doing interesting things with diesel for a while now. Back
in 2005, they introduced the turbo diesel powered Audi R10, which won the 2006
12 Hours of Sebring and 24 Hours of Le Mans. It was replaced in 2011 by
another turbo diesel, the R18.

Of course, neither of these are diesel/electric hybrids, but it's not a
surprise that, given their history of inovation with diesel, Volkswagen Group
put something like this together.

~~~
ComputerGuru
Actually, the R18 is available as a diesel/electric hybrid! It's know as the
R18 e-tron quattro and the electric motor separately powers the front wheels,
converting the R18 to a quattro (4-wheel drive system). Because of the race
rules and regs though, the electric is only allowed to kick in past 120km/h.

~~~
schiffern
> _Because of the race rules and regs though, the electric is only allowed to
> kick in past 120km/h._

Why make that rule?

~~~
wh0car3s
The R18 e-tron sends the extra power to the front wheels (effectively making
it a four wheel drive). I guess the rule was put in place to negate any
advantage the R18 e-tron will have when cornering.

The other LMP hybrid is the Toyota TS030, their system applies the extra power
at the rear only, and therefore Toyota can use the electric power at any speed
(race reports of the 2012 24 hr of Le Mans said that the Toyota TS030 was
eerily silent going down the pit road as it was running on pure electric power
on pit stops).

~~~
ericcumbee
Of course the R18 Etron is a Flywheel based system, which has little relevance
to road cars. it's Also caped at 500Kj of energy that can be stored and
released per braking.

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brudgers
_"The result is a car that weighs just over 1,900 pounds, or about one-third
less than the new 911."_

And 10% more than a 1963 Beetle of fifty years ago.

[http://www.hemmings.com/hsx/stories/2007/04/01/hmn_feature23...](http://www.hemmings.com/hsx/stories/2007/04/01/hmn_feature23.html)

~~~
paulbennett
It does have more in the way of safety and comfort features though.

~~~
brudgers
At zero to sixty in twelve seconds, however, it's not appreciably quicker off
the line...well, ok, significantly faster if we use a 1963 Type II.

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thematt
I thought we were done with the ugly "covered up rear wheels for electric
cars" thing.

~~~
mikeash
HN is certainly not the place I expected to find a comment criticizing the
aesthetics of a useful engineering decision.

~~~
sp332
I'm excited to see a car that was actually designed up-front with aerodynamics
in mind. This isn't the first of course but they're pretty rare. Even for the
Bugatti Veyron and Nissan Leaf, where you'd think drag forces would be the
first consideration for the body, the overall look was determined first and
aerodynamic engineers had to work within those limits.

~~~
Spooky23
I don't know about the Bugatti, but think of the use case for a Leaf -- urban
commuting and errands. Does aerodynamics matter for city driving?

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brotchie
I feel that Tesla's success with the Model S is due to its fairly conventional
shape. It looks like an "ordinary" car.

I'm not sure if the design aspects of this VW are due to improved
aerodynamics, or a desire to make something look "futuristic". Striving for
this look actually makes it feel out-of-date.

~~~
sliverstorm
Well, it has a conventional shape, but it also looks distinct. I think trying
to make an electric car that looks just like any other car would be a mistake-
I came to this conclusion after looking at the Prius and the Insight.

See, the Insight was too weird and too much of a compromise (2 seater,
stickshift), so even though it got 70MPG in the 90's, it never took off. Nor
did the first generation Prius, which looks _exactly_ like an ordinary car.
Then the second generation comes along, which is much like an ordinary car but
has a distinctive look that says "Look at me! I'm driving a Prius!" and it
sold like hotcakes.

My conclusion is essentially that people were uninterested in hybrids,
_unless_ the hybrid was recognizable as such to act as a social signal, yet
did not compromise on any of the functionality of a regular car. So in
summary, the Tesla does these things- it has a distinctive look, enough to
signal "Look at me! I drive a Tesla!" while still being very close to an
ordinary car.

~~~
robterrell
> the Insight ... got 70MPG in the 90's

I was a fan of the original Insight... the real-world MPG was actually around
38 IIRC. There were a couple gas-only cars with better MPGs and fewer
compromises (i.e. back seats).

> I think trying to make an electric car that looks just like any other car
> would be a mistake

Additionally: the Chevy Volt. The pre-production cars looked amazingly
futuristic, and the production car looks like every other Chevy. The
incredibly boring appearance is, honestly, one of the things that lowered my
interest in the car.

With respect to sexy styling, they're damned if they do and damned if they
don't. I agree that Tesla threaded that needle almost perfectly.

~~~
thoughtsimple
You can look up real world MPG on a site like fuelly.com. It looks like the
first gen Honda Insight is over 55 MPG on average. There aren't enough cars to
get a great sample but they list about 75 cars between 2000-2006.

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umsm
I drive a diesel, and I love it. I'm so surprised that all of these hybrids
are "revolutionary" yet they offer almost no improvement over something
similar with a diesel engine.

My 1.9L diesel engine gets 40+ MPG everyday for the past few years. I'm
excited by what Mercedes is doing with their GLK250... a 2.1L diesel in the
GLK is almost perfect for that car.

~~~
paulbennett
40MPG vs 260MPG is not exactly "similar" though.

Something like a Prius vs a modern diesel though is very similar, I don't see
the Prius as revolutionary.

~~~
umsm
I wasn't comparing a normal car to this, as this is an edge case.

I am talking about the choices we make when purchasing a car. Almost everyone
that I spoke to that has a hybrid doesn't consider it worth the money. These
manufacturers advertise "38MPG highway" as being something incredible while a
ten year old technology can achieve something better.

The problem is that gas prices are stable (controlled?) in the US so that
inefficient cars are the norm.

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namdnay
PSA Peugeot-Citroen have been selling diesel-electric hybrids for more than a
year now:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peugeot_3008#Hybrid_version>

[http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Drives/Search-Results/First-
dri...](http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Drives/Search-Results/First-
drives/Citroen-DS5-Hybrid4-2012-CAR-review/)

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Zigurd
If the diesel can run on vegetable oil, you could grow a year's supply of fuel
with 1 acre of sunflowers. Storage would not be a problem, either. That's a
cheaper way to access solar energy for driving than an acre of solar panels.

~~~
jcomis
Is this accounting for all the labor and resources it takes to grow and
process the sunflowers?

~~~
sp332
My yard is mostly sand, and it's still harder _not_ to grow sunflowers. Not
sure about processing, but growing them won't be a problem.

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tenpoundhammer
I really like the look of the car, I have always loved the slick aerodynamic
"futuristic" look. I also keep wondering why commercial long haul trucks have
such an inefficient design. It's like a giant block barrelling down the
highway. Couldn't a little bit of aerodynamics go a long way for long haul
truckers ?

~~~
noahc
They do. See:

[1] Between the back tires is a flap that helps with aerodynamics. I would say
that 50%+ of the trucks I see on the road have these.

[2] These are much less common, but I'd guess 5% or so use these.

[1]
[http://www.popularmechanics.com/cm/popularmechanics/images/p...](http://www.popularmechanics.com/cm/popularmechanics/images/pm/semi-
trucks-05-0812-de.jpg)

[2]
[http://www.blogcdn.com/green.autoblog.com/media/2009/11/part...](http://www.blogcdn.com/green.autoblog.com/media/2009/11/part-450.jpg)

~~~
tenpoundhammer
that's really cool I never saw that before.

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revelation
Careful with the numbers. With hybrids, they often don't count the
electricitiy in the consumption, but still measure with the car running on it.
That leads to these rather outrageous numbers of 261MPG - they just assume
electricity is free. Using that measurement, of course the Tesla Model S has
infinite MPG.

~~~
kristianp
They assume electricity is 'free', because the battery is charged only by the
fuel in a hybrid. (Not a plug-in hybrid of course). So there is no need to
consider the electricity as a separate cost. Or am I misunderstanding what
you're saying?

~~~
revelation
Most hybrids with a larger battery (as this one) also have a charging port. I
think what they do is start the test with a fully charged battery and never
count the energy in that. So you get the first 40 miles or so free until the
motor kicks in to recharge the battery again (which is where they then start
counting the gasoline consumed).

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oftenwrong
>the XL1 can putter along for 32 miles and at up to 62 mph on electric power
alone

I wonder what kind of numbers they could get out of an electric-only version.
62mph is near the legal limit of highway speed anywhere I've ever been, so for
me that would be a fine limitation. If they removed the diesel engine, the
extra drive-train components it requires, and the gas tank, they could save
more weight. With just that weight savings, the range would be improved. It
also leaves room for installing a larger battery. 32 mi on a 5.5 kWh battery
is nice, but of course the public wants more. For reference, the Tesla S with
the largest battery option (85 kWh), can do 265 mi.

It is good to see a car company pursuing a radical design.

~~~
icegreentea
Mind you that 62 mph is probably on flat ground. The moment you have to deal
with hills, 62mph flat out is going to get you in trouble. And yes, I know
highways are typically pretty flat, but even small grades can result in large
increases power required.

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jgj
In the future, fuel-efficient cars will look like normal cars! I can't wait.
Hopefully it will be because the people making them realize that fuel-
efficient cars don't need to look like rejected drawings from Doug[1] and not
that everyone decided that all cars need to look like rejected drawings from
Doug.

[1]
[http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae342/dougfunnieiscrazy/D...](http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae342/dougfunnieiscrazy/Dougs%20Sister%20Act/01.jpg)

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waivej
I've been hoping to some day find a car that is a worthy replacement for my
Honda Insight. The Volkswagen seems to be similar in many ways: comparable
horsepower, weight, covered rear wheels, etc. I doubt it'll be $22,000 though.

A friend even was able to get similar mpg numbers by boosting the battery pack
to a similar capacity (in a competition). Too bad the market didn't shine on
the early Insight. If I remember correctly, they only sold 20,000 worldwide
over its 8 year run.

