

The Coming Code Bootcamp Destruction - hkmurakami
http://zedshaw.com/2014/10/19/the-coming-code-bootcamp-destruction/

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bhaumik
Wonder if more experiences like this [1] will come up. He actually got a cease
and desist to take down the blog post from them...

[1] [http://joselcontreras.com/about-coding-
house/](http://joselcontreras.com/about-coding-house/)

------
namocat
After deeming the academic science career path too exploitative and fraught
with landmines, I decided I wanted to being a transition into the tech
industry as a software engineer. Only trouble was... I didn't have any of the
necessary modern web development skills to actually get hired and it would
have probably taken me over a year working 'on the side' to gain them. Having
just completed a PhD, I was not in the state where I could have justified
going BACK to school for a masters in computer science either. So for my level
of experience, place in life, and motivation, the coding bootcamp I attended
(Hack Reactor) was the best thing I could have ever hoped for. I worked hard
during the program and got a great job as a software engineer only a couple
weeks after graduating the program and have been happily employed in my new
role for ~7 months so far.

I'm torn on this issue though, because even though I feel that Hack Reactor
was worth every penny, I can acknowledge that the "coding bootcamp" space
could potentially be littered with shysters and people trying to make a quick
buck, taking advantage of students by promoting false hiring stats. I'd
welcome for a light to be shined on those programs, but would lament if Hack
Reactor specifically gets thrown under the bus or that the tech industry sours
on grads of good schools like Hack Reactor because they are labeled as simply
"bootcamp grads".

~~~
Kalium
From what I've seen of bootcamps, they can be very useful for someone with a
decent amount of software and computers already under their belt. For someone
completely green, it's dicier.

That said, either way the real tests come later. Things like adapting to new
technologies and new ideas, or self-teaching all the theory that bootcamps
inevitably skip over.

Is your average bootcamp grad who had no real experience going in able to have
a normal software engineering career trajectory? There's no good data, and
there won't be for a while, but I have my doubts.

~~~
namocat
Because the bootcamp industry hasn't been around very long, you're right,
there is no good data. But from my experience and the experience of my peers
in my class, I believe that adapting to new technologies/new ideas is actually
one of our main strengths. Those skills are essentially a pre-requisite to
getting through the program.

Your question about the potential to have a normal software engineering career
trajectory is a good one (one that I am particularly interested to hear the
answer to) and that's why I wish that more employers would speak to this
issue. I would venture to guess that my employer would speak highly of Hack
Reactor and how prepared HR grads are because they have continued to hire from
there, but it would be nice to see how employers actually review these schools
and not just the students.

~~~
Kalium
One of the common hazards in entering a field is that the neophyte tends to
see everything through the lens of what they grasped first. In a traditional
CS curriculum, this is intended to be a formal and mathematical understanding
of computers.

When you start by learning a language, that becomes the basis for your
understanding of computing. This isn't always a strength. Imagine someone who
learned programming via C but now has to learn Lisp - they're going to have a
hard time.

I've heard very mixed reviews of hiring from bootcamps. For people who needed
the exact skillset the bootcamp taught, it was perfect. For those without that
exact alignment, ran into the limits of the person's knowledge pretty fast.

~~~
FLUX-YOU
>For those without that exact alignment, ran into the limits of the person's
knowledge pretty fast.

That seems natural. They only have 3 months of experience. The company is
simply going to have to help with that, along with ample googling and reading.

I think the expectations of those doing the hiring may have been out of line,
possibly due to bootcamps selling them something they simply can't deliver
reliably, possibly due to hiring managers not knowing the field.

~~~
Kalium
A lot of it was that the bootcamp grads didn't have a good grasp of what they
actually knew. They would claim to know a language, but in actuality only know
one particular framework in that language.

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RubyPinch
I really hope that, when he makes the actual Code Bootcamp Destruction post,
he makes sure that he has more than a couple emails about each situation he
exposes

not that I think a pile of lies were sent to him, but more along the lines of,
what happened isn't always what was perceived to happen, or what was perceived
from hearing about something happening.

~~~
zedshaw
I always cover my ass and being as I don't want to get sued I make sure to get
reports of stories from multiple sources and research things heavily before I
move.

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patslat
I'm a "bootcamp" graduate who has been happily employed at a great company for
around a year now.

I would definitely say that my experience of grinding out 60 hour weeks of
programming was very much aligned with learning something the hard way, so I
really hope that Zed at least manages to acknowledge the successful programs
in the space.

While I share the concern that many of these programs may not live up to their
claims, it should not be overlooked that there are a few quality ones that
really change people's lives.

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devbootcamp
A couple months ago I decided to start a dev bootcamp here in the midwest. We
only had one other dev bootcamp school where I live so I decided to give it a
try. I work a full time job so I really didn't need the money. After talking
to so many people full of passion and desire to become a programmer that have
little to no money, I have decided to do it for free so I can network with
people and collaborate on ideas. It's a 6 month course that covers just about
everything. It is done at night from 6-10pm monday - thursday, with one on one
mentoring all other times from 8pm - 1am. It is done over Skype, HipChat,
Webex, and IRC. Look forward to meeting you.
[http://www.midwesthackerschool.com](http://www.midwesthackerschool.com)

------
brogrammer90
Over the past 2 years, many small web consultancy shops have figured out that
teaching boot camps is more lucrative than doing actual consulting.

~~~
raincom
Yeah, many bootcamps have become like those "get rich late night
informercials".

------
stephenitis
"I’ve been for them because they aim to help people learn to code and try to
keep costs low compared to a similar degree from a university. I’ve been
against them because most just take my books, teach my material, then rip off
students for $15k programs that don’t actually get anyone deployed."

Isn't that what traditional education/university courses do?... but over a
much longer period of time and more money?

Light is the best disinfectant, I hope your post spark some strong discussion
because that rarely happens with universities and the stakeholders.

I wonder very strongly what happened to the students of Livingsocial's Hungry
Academy experiment led by Jeff Casimer and JumpStartLabs in 2012. It was a
initial class of 8-15 or something with promised contracts at the end.
LivingSocial chose not to continue the program and I believe
gschool(galvanize) spawned off of that model.

Jeff talking about his vision for teaching people to code on ruby rogues in
2012 [http://rubyrogues.com/050-rr-hungry-academy-with-jeff-
casimi...](http://rubyrogues.com/050-rr-hungry-academy-with-jeff-casimir/)

I started Dev Bootcamp in early spring 2013, signing up after lamenting that
[http://pragmaticstudio.com/](http://pragmaticstudio.com/) in Reston, VA was
2-3,000 for a 3 day course. It just made sense in comparison.

I've found Dev Bootcamp to change and evolve as time moved due to student
feedback(I parttime coached students there to stay in touch). The curiosity to
learn everything and knowing how to find the answers was my favorite takeaway
from the bootcamp.

~~~
flente
I worked at LivingSocial while Hungry Academy was happening. I believe there
were about 15-20 students and they were promised jobs with the company if they
successfully completed the program.

Most of what I heard about it was second-hand, so my information may not be
entirely accurate. That said, I believe the outcome was pretty mixed. Some of
the students did very well and ended up becoming respected members of the
engineering org. Others were just OK. A few left for other companies shortly
after completing the program -- pretty tacky stuff, since LivingSocial PAID
them the entire time they were students. I also heard one or two of them
didn't pan out at all and were eventually let go.

I think the primary reason LivingSocial chose not to continue the program was
because they started running out of money. The first class finished around the
time it became clear that daily deals were not going to be the cash cow that
everyone expected. LivingSocial saw their valuation drop dramatically, and
started being much more careful about how they were spending money.

I left the company about a year after Hungry Academy ended, so I have no idea
where these folks are now.

------
MartinCron
As someone who learned to code long before the whole "boot camp" thing, I
would be very interested in hearing stories of what they are all about. I
would hate to give someone bad advice in either direction.

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jared314
I've had my suspicions about the rebranding of vocational schools as "hacker
schools" and "bootcamps". Regulation and accreditation, while stifling, does
allow government aid and ensures some kind of minimum quality (like restaurant
health inspections).

That being said, I still think there is a valid business in training
developers who want to change "stacks" (i.e. Embedded dev jumping into web
dev, C# dev jumping into Erlang). The stacks, and ecosystems, are just complex
enough to require allocating a lot of free time to becoming proficient and
employable. Not everyone is an autodidact. (Perhaps, this is also the solution
to the old "developers burn out at 35" axiom.)

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sprkyco
I for one feel quite vindicated by this endeavor I attended a bootcamp in
Pearland, TX and it was terrible. Luckily I was able to get a job later in a
programming related field, but it was nonetheless a ridiculous and terrible
experience. If anyone is interested in my experiences they are over at
sprky.co I have also reached out to the other people from my camp that had a
terrible experience. Overall I think the idea of coding bootcamps is on the
right track and really hope to see it succeed. However the instance of what I
went through has left a bad taste in my mouth.

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crb002
Perhaps ThoughtBot has a better model with $500/week paid apprenticeships.

~~~
allcentury
That's not a bootcamp. Thoughtbot runs metis now, which is a bootcamp at
$12,500 - [http://www.thisismetis.com/](http://www.thisismetis.com/)

~~~
crb002
Not being a bootcamp is the point. Real experience without going into debt.

