

Competitive Start Fund (CSF) - Enterprise Ireland - mcgeadyd
http://www.enterprise-ireland.com/en/funding-supports/Company/HPSU-Funding/Competitive-Start-Fund-CSF-.html

======
beilabs
Shocking to hear about this from Hacker News. I'm an Irish citizen living in
Oz, with a startup (www.dealpinch.com), and this is the first I've heard about
it.

One thing strike me straight away. The only reason I would accept equity would
be for contacts and expertise. This program does not offer it, but it is a
start!

Ireland is in a bad state right now, it's recovering from an inept government
and crazy policy when it came to small startups. This will go a long way to
starting up jobs in the country, they need to go much further.

The country has the talent to make an impact on the world stage, we have a
highly educated, motivated workforce. It is exceptionally difficult for any
startup to get a loan from the banks in Ireland right now.

~~~
mise
You're hearing about it in the perfect place.

EI always had had funding if you want to help create jobs, from their
perspective. My downfall is that I would only want to create one job: mine.

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bluelu
You get much better deals in other countries.

For instance, in Luxembourg, the state is going to double your investment (up
to a million €) while not taking any parts in the company. But you must pass a
comittee which decides on whether you get the funding or not.
([http://www.eco.public.lu/salle_de_presse/com_presse_et_art_a...](http://www.eco.public.lu/salle_de_presse/com_presse_et_art_actu/2010/07/Signature_jeunes_entreprises_innovantes/index.html))

There is still much more: E.g. reimbursement of fair costs, 40% salary
takeover by the state if you hire university graduates which haven't yet found
a job, etc...

~~~
maayank
May someone well-versed in the dark art which is French elaborate more on this
program? Is it open only to EU members? Would a startup without millions of
capital might really be eligible?

~~~
bluelu
Your company must be based in Luxembourg, so you must have an authorization to
create a company in Luxembourg which is sometimes hard to get. But they are
trying to improve things there.

You will get the help only once and it will only match the investment you
invest into your company as well. So if invest 0€ into your company, you will
also get 0€.

~~~
barry-cotter
You need relatively substantial skin in the game. The minimum amount necessary
to register a company is somewhere between €12,500 and €31,000.

<http://www.ocra.com/solutions/setbusiness_luxembourg.asp>

~~~
maayank
but what about residency? From what I gathered at your linked website (tnx
btw, seems like a great resource) their work permit (aka working for an
employer) rules are pretty lax... Is it the same for working on your own?

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dclaysmith
Dublin is a great place to live and good place for tech companies. I recently
had to hire a developer and got plenty of good resumes and was really happy
with the eventual hire. Google, PayPal, Facebook are here and loads of online
gaming/gambling companies too.

Plus you can't beat the Guiness.

That being said, I'd say that if you aren't already in Ireland--the funding
above would probably not be an option. Getting a visa is not a trivial matter
(especially without an actual employer) and Enterprise Ireland will make you
jump through alot of hoops for that money. Pretty great idea tho'--Ireland
needs programs like that to get the economy back on track.

~~~
rmc
_Getting a visa is not a trivial matter_

Remember Ireland is a member of the European Union, so any EU citizen can live
& work in Ireland. If you parent or grandparent are Irish citizens/have an
irish passport, then you can get Irish citizenship and live and work in
Ireland forever.

~~~
ciupicri
Not any EU citizen <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2300890>

------
chadp
It is not a bribe, they are taking an equity stake.

"The maximum support available is €50,000 for a 10% ordinary equity stake in
the start-up company. "

~~~
mcgeadyd
Ok sorry, I changed €50k "bribe" to "deal".

------
robryan
"Must be capable of creating 10 jobs in Ireland and realising sales of €1m
within 3 to 4 years of starting up."

They are asking a fair bit, what do they do, kick you out of Ireland if your
not quickly successful?

~~~
Kudos
I would imagine that they expect your business plan and projections to be able
to satisfy these criteria.

If you're already eligible to work in Ireland (a requirement of the grant),
I'm pretty sure the Department of Enterprise doesn't have the power to deport
people ;)

~~~
robryan
Pretty sure from what I read the American startup visa was tied to your
business continuing to run. Thought this may be a similar type of thing, guess
this into tied to visa requirements though.

------
irishmanirl
You might get a better deal in other countries but 12.5% corporate tax is hard
to beat. Also the fact that just about every silicon valley heavyweight has
significant operations (dev, marketing & support) in Ireland is an indicator
something is being done right over there.

Cheap, regular flights from Dublin to just about anywhere in Europe make those
trips to London, Paris, Amsterdam and Germany into just day trips. I found it
was a pretty good hub.

~~~
carlocci
If by right you mean tax evasion (technically avoidance) through
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_Arrangement>

------
dxjones
For 50k they take 10% equity, valuing your startup at a tiny 500k, plus you
have to leave the country. You give up a lot.

Why not just pitch to Dave McClure's 500Startups? You can get started with
$10k for 1% equity, valuing your startup at $1M. More funding is possible,
plus space, mentors, ...

<http://500startups.com/>

~~~
ceejayoz
At ~$20k for ~6% equity, YC would seem to be an even smaller valuation than
$500k, right?

~~~
rcamera
I doubt that YC measures their investment based on valuation. Imagine the
companies they invested that had just the idea formed. How do you valuate
that? Even in a stable business, valuation is still a bunch of guesses, how
much future cash flow the company will generate, what will the investor
opportunity cost be in X years, etc...

I would think more of a bet instead of valuation when thinking of seed
investment in a start-up. What I would say they do is standardize their bets,
using their history and benchmarking theirs with other investors. YC's
standard bet is around ~$20k for ~6% equity, that's all.

------
hnt
As an Irish software engineer/wantrapreneur working in San Francisco here is
my take on some of the comments around this article.

-Ireland is incredibly expensive for what you get, food/drink/eating out is on par or more expensive than San Francisco. The only thing thats cheaper is rent.

-Couple the previous point with the fact that Software Engineers in Ireland get paid roughly 1/3 of what they earn in the valley.

-Most good Software engineers leave the country so the ecosystem in Ireland is not so hot for finding top talent.

-Most big companies in Ireland do localization, sales/marketing, IT stuff. Very little real development is done there by big companies (i.e facebook/google/amazon).

-Infrastructure in Ireland is shit. Its a right pain in the ass to get decent broadband setup and the roads here are a joke.

If I wanted to do a lean startup in Europe I would incorporate in Ireland for
the tax rate and setup shop somewhere sane like Berlin where rent and cost of
living is cheap.

------
donohoe
I heard about it through this really good podcast, where a rep from the David
Smith, Senor Vice President of Enterprise Ireland (and I believe is based in
Silicon Alley) explains the stake they take and why. Very informative:

Blog Post on Startup Success Podcast:

[http://startupsuccesspodcast.com/2011/01/show-96-david-
smith...](http://startupsuccesspodcast.com/2011/01/show-96-david-smith-
enterprise-ireland/)

Direct Link to MP3:

<http://media.startupsuccesspodcast.com/StartupSuccess096.mp3>

You can still work in the US but you just have to have your company HQ etc in
Ireland.

As I'm from Ireland myself, but live and work in NYC, I can attest to the
talented developers and modern infrastructure in Ireland. Its not for
everyone, but worth a look.

------
jsb
My pal, Robert Shedd, took his company overseas to Ireland after participating
in Philadelphia's DreamIt Ventures. He's written a tiny bit about the
experience thus far: <http://blog.shedd.us/greetings-from-ireland%e2%80%a6/>

He's definitely someone who could tell you about the culture and ecosystem
from a US background if you're considering applying to the program.

------
ojbyrne
This seems like a weird requirement:

"The first tranche will be released when the company provides confirmation of
an additional investment of €5,000 in the company"

So you have to get approval not only from them, but also some other funding
organization (and one that invests such a small amount). I wonder if self-
funding counts.

~~~
mattmanser
I'm not pretending any inside knowledge but that looks like self-funding to
me.

It's been fairly common for the loans and grants I've seen in the UK to
require proof of a bit of self-provided capital before you can get the funds.

~~~
Swannie
Agreed.

I read that to mean "when you produce a bank statement with €5,000 in the
account, we will pay you the first half".

------
Tycho
Jesus, deadline for applications is March 11th. Interesting though.

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toot
Strange to find this on Hacker News, considering I was only discussing the EI
programs with my entrepreneurship lecturer last week! The March 11th deadline
may be a bit too close at this stage, but I'm always willing to plot and
scheme with Irish hackers! I will shortly complete my business management
degree, and as part of this I am consulting with a local online marketing/SEO
firm. I've dabbled with learning programming to do my own startup, or maybe
even starting my own marketing shop, but for the time being I have been
lurking here for ages, absorbing all the business advice I can get my hands
on.

If any Irish hackers want to have a chat, to let me know what you're working
on, or need a business-head to compliment their hacking skills drop me a line
(email in profile).

------
barrettcolin
To my knowledge, this is actually the second such fund being made available
since late last year. I guess the first one was oversubscribed, which (I hope
at least) augurs well. If you're in Ireland and you didn't hear about the
first round or this round, they were certainly advertised in the Sunday
Business Post newspaper (and I assume others), as well as online.
Announcements appear to generally be posted here
<http://bestconnected.enterprise-ireland.com/>

I have no association aside from being an interested observer, FWIW.

------
boxedin
> Must be capable of creating 10 jobs in Ireland and realising sales of €1m
> within 3 to 4 years of starting up.

What actually happens if the startup fails to do this?

And, what is ordinary equity? As you can tell by that question, I'm a newbie
when it comes to this. Any background reading recommendations would be
appreciated.

------
mise
Might be of related interest: a recent podcast with David Smith of Enterprise
Ireland. [http://startupsuccesspodcast.com/2011/01/show-96-david-
smith...](http://startupsuccesspodcast.com/2011/01/show-96-david-smith-
enterprise-ireland/)

------
wildmXranat
I guess a lot of Europe's investors are sweating bricks just thinking of the
length of time it will take for Ireland to pay back the money. 50k for equity
now, in exchange for having up-to 10 additional tax payers is a good deal.

------
mcgeadyd
There actually is a scene slowly building in dublin. Some encouraging stuff
going on. Can read about the dublin web summit here...
<http://www.dublinwebsummit.com/>

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xiaoma
For many who apply to YC, this isn't really an alternative.

 _"Please note applicants must be eligible to live and work in Ireland."_

------
mcgeadyd
i'm in dublin, but ironically I'm looking for a US visa. Swap passports
anyone? <\-- I'm JOKING!!!

~~~
yeahsure
Care to share why you're looking for a US visa? Your comment would certainly
add value to the conversation (ie Why do you think the US is better for
entrepreneurs than Ireland?)

~~~
benofsky
I live in Ireland and am an Irish citizen (US citizen too, hoping to move to
the US). There are several reasons I would think the US is better for
entrepreneurs and startups than Ireland.

* The truly brilliant people tend to leave after high school, since there're no world class universities here (particularly for sciences).

* People seem, in my opinion, to get quite tunneled vision in terms of what they can achieve: they see Ireland as the boundary of their successes. People here tend to be unambitious.

* Labour laws in Ireland are very strict: once you hire someone, it's practically impossible to fire them.

* We are currently in a terrible economic situation, the country is bankrupt. 20 year old Irish companies have trouble getting credit, let alone startups.

* It's probably worth noting that Enterprise Ireland is generally considered quite incompetent in terms of deciding who to invest in and in general operation of their programs. Getting this grant would require, most likely, an absurd amount of hoop jumping.

* Dublin is also still a very expensive place to live.

 _That said, there're a lot of great things about Ireland (more specifically
Dublin):_

* It's a very small (and very social!) place, building a network is not hard, everyone knows everyone.

* Dublin is a great place to live.

* Very low corporation tax (12.5%)

EDIT: Formatting

~~~
yeahsure
Very interesting thoughts. Thanks for sharing! Upvoted :-)

I wonder why would big corporations move there if labor laws are so strict
there. Maybe they get "special" treatment in exchange for creating lots of
jobs?

Also, if Dublin is so expensive, does it make sense to hire workers there who
probably have to make more in exchange to get low corporate tax? Hmmm...

~~~
benofsky
It's not as big a problem for the big companies like Google and IBM since they
can afford to pay people off, they can also afford to have a more extensive
hiring process in the first place.

Dublin is definitely not so expensive that it outweighs the benefit of a 12.5%
corporation tax, which is more than twice less than most other EU countries.

------
lubos
another bummer:

"Please note applicants must be eligible to live and work in Ireland."

~~~
rmc
Any of the EU half a billion people can live and work in Ireland.

~~~
ciupicri
Not anyone from EU. Bulgaria and Romania are excluded:

 _On 17 December 2008, the Government announced its decision that, from 1
January 2009, it would continue to restrict access to the Irish labour market
for nationals of Bulgaria and Romania._ [1]

[1] <http://www.deti.ie/labour/workpermits/whoneedsapermit.htm>

~~~
Peroni
Let's adjust the figures to suit your additional facts:

EU Population: 500 Million

EU Population eligible to live & work in Ireland: 470 Million

~~~
ciupicri
Do you think that a Bulgarian or a Romanian cares about these figures if
he/she can't work in Ireland and thus can not apply to this program?

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maxer
just in from the dublin web summit and there seems to be 6-7 startup
accelerators/incubators

the scene in dublin is coming on leaps and bounds very quickly

