
Programmers Must Take Vitamin D - tomse
http://e2open.org/programmers-need-to-take-vitamin-d/
======
holri
That is doctoring on the symptom, not the cause. Go outside. You do not only
need Vitamin D, you also need fresh air, green and exercise. You can not get
this with pills. In the long run you save time, because of longer life (and
hacking) and reduced illness (better hacking).

~~~
bascule
I thought it was funny that this blog post didn't mention getting outside as a
potential solution. That said, it's not like it's a dichotomy: I take a daily
vitamin D supplement, try to eat as much catfish and salmon as I can, and try
to get out in the sun as much as possible.

That said, getting out in the sun is a fairly nuanced debate. Most
dermatologists will tell you not to, because of the risk of skin cancer, and
because of the lack of peer-reviewed research showing that the benefits of
skin-based vitamin D production outweigh the potential for skin cancer:

[http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/24/science/sunscreens-and-
vit...](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/24/science/sunscreens-and-
vitamin-d.html)

Wearing sunscreen will inhibit vitamin D production, so getting some sun while
wearing high-SPF sunscreen is not going to help you as much as unprotected
exposure (per the dermatologist in the aforementioned article)

So the question becomes: do you believe the "vitamin D hypothesis" that
vitamin D deficiency was the driving force behind the evolution of human skin
color? The hypothesis is that northern Europeans evolved lower melanin levels
in their skin through a combination of high latitudes and a diet deficient in
natural sources of vitamin D:

[http://anthrogenetics.wordpress.com/2011/06/29/a-support-
for...](http://anthrogenetics.wordpress.com/2011/06/29/a-support-for-vitamin-
d-hypothesis-of-skin-color-evolution-a-correlation-between-african-genetic-
ancestry-and-blood-vitamin-d-concentration/)

So the question of whether you should go out in the sun (unprotected) in order
to generate vitamin D becomes a question of whether you are more worried about
the potential health complications of vitamin D deficiency or skin cancer.

Choose wisely!

~~~
AmaralHerberth
Just an observation: there are certain time intervals in a day that you CAN
get some sun exposure without worring (too much) about UV rays & skin cancer.
I do not know about the rest of the world, but in tropical regions the
intervals are 6-9 am and 4-6 pm. 15 minutes per day is enough in tropical
regions and a bit more in other regions.

Nevertheless, you have more than a couple of hours to get outside and get some
sun. Just have a schedule and stick to it :)

One last thing: visit your doctor often and check for overall nutrient levels
(vitamins, minerals, etc) and avoid taking supplements before it.

~~~
neilc
_there are certain time intervals in a day that you CAN get some sun exposure
without worring (too much) about UV rays & skin cancer_

Note that it is exposure to ultraviolet light (particularly UVB) that causes
the production of Vitamin D.

------
awolf
There are many different types of vitamin D synthesized in our bodies which
require sunlight to form. The many varieties of D are used in an enormous
amount of different chemical processes in our bodies- many of which are quite
complex and not fully understood.

Vitamin D supplements consist of (mostly) one type of Vitamin D. People _are_
typically deficient in that specific type so mild supplementation _is_ a
reasonable option. Just don't kid yourself into thinking that taking Vitamin D
is a replacement for spending adequate time outdoors. Compared to the first
100 million years of our species existence, hiding indoors all day is a
relatively new invention. It will be a while before science produces a silver
bullet in gelcap form.

~~~
paulsutter
Could you provide some references? I'm really interested to learn more

EDIT: I'm looking for backup to the claim that sunlight provides something
that you don't get in a vitamin D3 supplement. It seems reasonable but has a
big impact on the solution.

~~~
001sky
_[5] forms (vitamers) of vitamin D exist (see table). The two major forms are
vitamin D2 or ergocalciferol, and vitamin D3 or cholecalciferol, vitamin D
without a subscript refers to either D2 or D3 or both. These are known
collectively as calciferol....Vitamin D3 (cholecalciferol) is produced by
ultraviolet irradiation (UV) of its precursor 7-dehydrocholesterol. This
molecule occurs naturally in the skin of animals and in milk. Vitamin D3 can
be made by exposure of the skin to UV, or by exposing milk directly to UV (one
commercial method)._

\------

 _Vitamin D3 (cholecalciferol) is produced industrially by exposing
7-dehydrocholesterol to UVB light, followed by purification.[143] The
7-dehydrocholesterol is a natural substance in wool grease (lanolin) from
sheep or other woolly animals. Vitamin D2 (ergocalciferol) is produced in a
similar way using ergosterol from yeast or mushrooms as a starting
material.[143]_

Tl;dr of 5 types & only D2 and D3 are commercial avail

\--Wikipedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D>

~~~
postfuturist
It looks to me like the supplement is D3 and the one you get from UV exposure
is D3, so no, spending time outdoors doesn't give you any better Vitamin D
than the supplement. Of course, exercise has other benefits.

~~~
graeme
I would amend that to no _proven_ benefits. The body is a complex system. D3
generated by the body via natural pathways may be more effective than ingested
D3 in some way we don't understand yet.

Leaving aside any other ill-understood benefits of sun exposure.

------
Empact
I supplement with 5000iu per day, and check my blood levels regularly. Even
with supplementation far exceeding governmental recommendations, My blood
levels have never exceeded 70 ng/mL, which is well within the health range of
30 - 100 ng/mL.

My advice is to get yourself tested, supplement, and continue testing.
<http://wellnessfx.com> is a great service for minimum effort monitoring.
Alternatively you can use cash-based services like this to order easily and
without a doctor: [http://www.mdlabtests.com/Vitamin-
Tests/081950-Vitamin-D-25-...](http://www.mdlabtests.com/Vitamin-
Tests/081950-Vitamin-D-25-Hydroxy.html)

~~~
graeme
I cannot wait for Wellness FX to come to Canada.

Here doctors look at you funny if you want to track biomarkers. "You're young,
problems don't occur until you get old". As if they've never heard of
prevention.

~~~
ricardobeat
You can't blame them, that's in general a healthier attitude than obsessing
over chemistry and stuffing yourself with pills. Same as full-body CT scans.

~~~
konstruktor
You do realize that our body keeps going via chemical processes? Genetics can
cause insufficient absorption of certain nutrients, and given the long term
consequences of chronic deficiencies, testing may not be such a bad idea after
all. Also, knowing your blood work means that you won't be stuffing yourself
with pills you don't need.

~~~
ricardobeat
That's what I'm talking about :) 99% of people will go on to live just fine
without knowing their precise blood levels. "Preventive medicine" is not
considered to be advantageous, usually the anxiety and stress outweights any
benefits unless you end up being the 0.1% and finding a serious condition that
didn't raise any alarms in your body.

------
streptomycin
Well, that's a pretty content-free article.

And there are lots of posts here, with anecdotes and opinions... but nobody is
talking about hard data, science, and (most importantly) clinical trials. Is
that because it hasn't been proven through a real clinical trial that
"programmers must take Vitamin D"?

~~~
gwern
It is pretty content-free, although I found interesting the claim that
caffeine interferes with vitamin D uptake. I'll have to look into that (though
the article included no references... ಠ_ಠ).

~~~
gwern
Finished researching it; claim is pretty bogus. My writeup is too long for
Hacker News, however:
[https://plus.google.com/103530621949492999968/posts/AUg3udez...](https://plus.google.com/103530621949492999968/posts/AUg3udezXMS)

Also emailed the blog post author Chris Hunt.

------
wamatt
Most Americans are deficient in Vitamin D, programmer or not. [1].

One of the few supplements that are actually is a good idea, but don't overdo
it, as it becomes toxic at higher levels.

You would not want to take more than 10 000IU per day and I'd probably
recommend 2000IU-4000IU as a baseline. If you can afford the time and expense,
the best is to close the loop and take a 25(OH)D blood test. You would want to
have a serum level of between 30-70ng/mL. Given the studies I've read over a
number of years I aim for around 55ng/mL, but there are differing views on
this, so by all means do your own research.

[1]
[http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=41487...](http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=414878)

------
patorjk
This problem actually happened to me. A few years ago I started feeling
incredibly lethargic. I would wake up with no energy. It was like sleep had
done nothing for me. I didn't know what was wrong, but I felt horrible.

After around two weeks I went to the doctor. A blood test was done and it
showed I had low vitamin D (26 ng/mL). After about a week of supplementation I
felt normal again. It's easy to forget to go outside, and if you're a
programmer and feel low energy, vitamin D is definitely something to look
into.

~~~
carbocation
20 is the lower limit of normal per US guidelines, though some specialty
societies have their low threshold set at 30.

At any rate, you are unlikely to have any calcium metabolism deficits at 26
and it's unlikely to have been a cause of any symptom in an otherwise healthy
adult.

~~~
patorjk
Hrm, I may have the "ng/mL" part wrong then, or I may just be sensitive to low
levels. All I remember is the number and that he said I was low.
Supplementation definitely resolved my problems though.

------
bmurphy1976
I have a better idea. Go outside.

I have a garden. I have a deck. I have two kids who I take to the pool
regularly. I have a lawn that needs maintenance. I _like_ to go outside.

Another thing. I work during the day.

Problem solved.

~~~
qxcv
But for the love of $DEITY, please wear adequate sun protection. At the very
least that means a hat and sunscreen, but you probably want to be using long
sleeved clothing and sunglasses if you're outside for an extended period of
time.

Vitamin D deficiency is bad, but skin cancer is worse.

~~~
refurb
"If you're fair skinned, experts say going outside for 10 minutes in the
midday sun—in shorts and a tank top with no sunscreen—will give you enough
radiation to produce about 10,000 international units of the vitamin."

You don't need a lot of sun exposure to get your body to produce enough
vitamin D.

~~~
ChuckMcM
As a person of Scottish descent I joke that I can get a sun burn by holding a
picture of the Sun near my skin :-)

~~~
pawelwentpawel
I'm surprised why they don't use those "sunlight lamps" in Scotland yet. I
guess whisky does a better job ;)

------
Imagenuity
I started taking D3 last fall, and it has made a big difference in how I feel.
I started with 3600IU for a few months and when I started feeling more
energetic and cheerful dropped down to 2600 (2x 1000IU + 600IU & calcium). I
get outside quite a bit, but in Vancouver WA the skies are overcast a lot and
the low sun angle means you can't get enough for vitamin D needs. I also take
a probiotic, an anti-oxidant, a fish oil and a green tea supplement. My diet
is mostly paleo. My ancestry is northern European.

For reference, you need to take 50,000IU for several months to develop
toxicity (ref: <http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vitamin-d-toxicity/AN02008>).
If you are pale skinned and don't spend a lot of time in the sun, you are much
more likely to be deficient.

If you really want to see where you're at, have your doctor do a blood test,
or go get a micro-nutrient test <http://www.spectracell.com/mnt/>

------
blackhole
Taking supplements without assessing what your current daily intake of Vitamin
D is can be dangerous; it is surprisingly easy to go over the recommended
dosage, and there is such a thing as overdosing on vitamins [1]. You don't
just get Vitamin D from the sun - it is also present in eggs, some seafood,
and certain fortified dairy products. Because of this, you may not need to
take a daily supplement at all. Programmers are at an increased risk for
vitamin D deficiency, but you should ALWAYS examine your diet to assess your
current vitamin D intake before deciding to take a supplement.

[1]
[http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2012/09/10-surpr...](http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2012/09/10-surprising-
dangers-of-vitamins-and-supplements/index.htm)

~~~
dspeyer
Calculating my vitamin D intake sounds difficult and unreliable. Is there any
way to measure my vitamin D levels by examining my body?

~~~
dhughes
Pretty much if you live in a northern part of the northern hemisphere (above
49 degrees latitude) you need a vitamin D supplement.

I recall reading about a researcher in Boston (I think) who said after about
mid October you could be sprawled buck naked on a rooftop all day and not get
enough vitamin D from (brief winter) sun exposure.

[http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/story/2008/05/16/f-health-
vita...](http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/story/2008/05/16/f-health-
vitamin-d.html)

------
bane
I actually have to avoid Vitamin D. I have a disorder (Hypercalcaemia) that
causes me to build up calcium in my blood. Vitamin D can rapidly improve the
body's ability to absorb calcium (hence Vitamin D enriched milk). Too much
calcium in your blood can lead to various physical nervous disorders (I get
facial ticks in the muscles around my eyes) but can also result in various
psychologically similar problems like depression, anxiety, insomnia, fatigue
and various other problems. In severe cases can lead to coma and death as it
can interfere with heart rhythms and other central nervous functions.

It's a real pain in the tail as the number of food products fortified with
calcium and vitamin D is remarkably high.

~~~
petercooper
How did you find out you have this? I've persistently had quite a few of the
symptoms but nothing comes up on tests. In experimenting, I gave up all dairy
which has helped a lot so I've simply been assuming I'm lactose intolerant..

~~~
beagle3
Milk has a lot of other things which may trigger your allergies other than
lactose. You might be lactose tolerant, but milk intolerant in general.

Furthermore, "Milk", quite surprisingly, is not well defined either. I've
switched to RonnyBrook recently (NY local, organic, grass fed, and I get it
within two days of leaving the cow), and it's a world of difference: The
taste, my body's reaction (My lungs and sinuses would often respond to milk by
clogging and excreting stuff, they don't anymore).

I haven't been able to find high quality sources (peer reviewed, etc) but I've
read claims that the nutrient and vitamin profile of milk from grass fed vs.
corn fed cows is completely different - which I don't really doubt - although
I'm waiting for some high quality analysis for the exact difference.

------
postfuturist
I was tested and was deficient, now I take it every day and my levels are
normal. Two buddies of mine got tested later and were also deficient,
dangerously low even. We live in Portland, Oregon, so sunlight exposure is
generally low, but I'd say it's a good idea for anyone to get tested.

------
simplexion
I thought the evidence for the benefits of taking vitamin tablets (for anyone
not deficient) was non-existent. I'm also under the belief that diet
modification works much better than vitamin tablets For deficiencies.

~~~
gwern
Multivitamins != vitamin D.

------
Zenst
Blanket declarations that involve any form of medication is just wrong.

Sure alot of people don't get enough vitamin D and that may be more true in
the feild of IT than others, but anybody who isolates themselfs and dosn't get
out to grab a little bit of sun here and there will be a probably candidate
for low vitamin D.

Now if you are one of those people who find themselfs driven to go take extra
vitamins tthen you need to know a couple of things:

Vitamins are balanced in that you need one to enable another to do another
thing and it's not as clear cut as dropping a few multi vits every day. It's
better to com0liment your food intake with the occasional multi vitamin
instead of a ritrual daily overdose turning your pee bright orange.

The other aspect is that if you are low on vitimin D and start taking
supliments then you will get aches and pains which feel like your bones are
bruised in places. DONT PANIC - this is a sighn that you were low on vitamin D
and it is your body adjusting, it is normal and nothing to worry about beyond
confirming you were low in that vitamin group.

But if you are that worried about lack of any vitamin then it is always best
to compliment via dietary needs and for vitamin D you cant beat a nice walk
outside at the right times.

Like any form of consumption be it vitamins, food, forum posts etc - the
golden rule is moderation, moderation and moderation.

------
cat67
I took 10,000 ui a day for over a year to build my vit d level up to 176. I
have multiple sclerosis. My goal is 200, have done a tone of research on the
topic, toxicity levels, etc... For 12 years in a row, have had a relapse every
winter, past winter didn't have one. One could say this is a coincedence, I
say no. In the summer I am always out in the sun alday, mostly every day,
shorts, t-shirt, etc... For some reason, my body doesn't absorb the vit d
good. I have fair skin, that tans very well. Anyways, I just wanted to share
my knowledge to help others.

------
will_work4tears
Well... I'm a web developer, not a "real" programmer, and I don't code at
night. I did until I got married, but no longer. Now that I have a kid, it's
suicide to do it more than once a week.

------
devgutt
Interesting post but without any source

------
jokull
A high quality source of vitamin D is liver. Cod liver oil is a great way to
supplement your diet. In Iceland you can get it in small sardine type cans and
spread the liver on crackers.

~~~
carbocation
It does contain some vitamin D, but it also contains about 10x as much vitamin
A. Hypervitaminosis A is a real problem. I would not think it particularly
safe to use cod liver oil for vitamin D supplementation because of this risk,
especially when other supplements exist.

------
stusmall
I always thought that mushrooms were a good source of vitamin D, ends up it a
slightly different form and isn't a suitable source. Thanks for the heads up!

------
ky3
No one has mentioned reptile lamps yet? Medical UVB is expensive and probably
can't be bought without a license of some sort. Reptile lamps you can buy from
a local pet store or online.

But nothing beats the real sun (and greenery and fresh air), obviously. Given
that the discovery of Vitamin D, heck the whole concept of vitamins even, is
relatively recent, we really don't know what else we don't know.

------
PawelD81
I've been drinking recently a ridiculous amount of caffeine every day. (5-6
coffees + redbulls ) And at the same time I eat everyday tuna sandwich and
salmons for dinner every third day. ( +snack a lot of bananas ). Regardless
I've never been a real fan of this kind of food, so it must have been a
natural body adaptation to low vitamins D level.

------
leed25d
I'll have a pizza, please. Yes... marinara sauce, cheese and all the anchovies
and sardines that you can fit on it.

------
ricardobeat
Got me worried for a sec, but I eat a lot of tuna/sardine sandwiches and
salads :)

~~~
sukuriant
Get checked anyway. I eat sushi quite frequently, and prefer fish over other
meats; and I was still very, very low, somewhere around 12.

------
mistercow
This is missing something, but I can't put my finger on it.

Oh yeah: citations.

~~~
jrockway
This is another anecdote point: my mom is a nutritional biochemist who has
done research on vitamins for much of her life. She always tells me to take
Vitamin D and that nearly everyone is deficient because we don't go outside
enough (and live in high latitudes).

Not science, but the author is on to something, I think. If you doubt it, get
your blood tested and see what your doctor says. If you don't want to get
tested, take a conservative supplement.

~~~
mistercow
I already take a basic multivitamin, but my concern is not that I'm trying to
make a personal decision based on this article; I make my health decisions
based on more research than that.

My concern is that the article makes a strong empirical claim that it does not
back up:

>However, it also inhibits vitamin D receptors, and as such decreases the
body’s uptake of this-much-needed-vitamin.

In fact, I can find a couple of studies sort of supporting this, but they have
to do with a very specific vitamin D receptor in a very specific subpopulation
(elderly women).

Some people are going to read this and they're going to assimilate into their
"probably true facts" bank the idea that caffeine just generally keeps you
from absorbing vitamin D, and then they're going to repeat that fact and it
will spread, and we'll have a whole new common belief about caffeine which is
probably false.

------
Riesling
I would love to write code outside.

I wish laptops with ebook reader like screens would exist.

It would not even bother me if they were only black and white.

~~~
perekk
1) JB a kindle 2) install some sort of ssh 3) ??? 4) PROFIT

------
lgleason
That is one of the reasons why I set up my workstation on my deck when I am
working from home and the weather is nice.

------
cincinnatus
Lots of interesting podcasts (techie and also story and news oriented) +
player + walk or run in sun = winning.

------
Egregore
In the winter I'm taking D2, because it's the vitamin prescribed to children
and so less toxic.

------
progrock
I think I trashed my teeth through drinking juice and a lack of sunshine.

------
tthomas48
Also milk. Iced Latte. Caffeine and Vitamin D.

------
dllthomas
Oily fish is on my pizza, some of the time!

------
Fando
Go outside!

------
Devilboy
Every day at about lunch time I go lie on the roof in the sun for 10 minutes -
doctor's orders. I also take D supplements but that alone was not enough to
get my levels back to the normal range so I have to get some actual sun as
often as I can too.

It's a bit of a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' situation here in
Australia: Approximately two in three Australians will be diagnosed with skin
cancer before the age of 70, while approximately one out of three Australians
have vitamin D deficiency...

~~~
beagle3
How much supplements do you take? RDAs are in the range of 400-1000 IU, but
apparently everyone I know who was actually tested and found deficient was
asked to do 100mg/kg of body weight (meaning 7000-9000 IU), so it seems the
RDA is off by an order of magnitude - perhaps established for a baseline of
people who live in a sunny place and hang out a lot.

~~~
dhughes
If you have dark skin you need more vitamin D, if you're obese you need more,
if you're elderly you need more and if you are covered up in the sun you need
more vitamin D.

7000 to 9000 IU sounds high but 1000 IU sounds way too low.

------
guiomie
Thank you so much.

