

We're hiring - but we probably won't pay you. - celticbadboy
http://channelsource.org/

======
snogglethorpe
Somewhat off-topic, but is the term "hiring" generally associated with
payment?

I've run across some (otherwise very reasonable) gaming websites that
periodically post big "we're hiring!" notices...and in the small print you see
that there's no actual salary, employment agreement, etc. Really they're
asking for volunteers, but they very consistently say they're "hiring."

[When I ask what's up with that, they're kinda defensive, saying "well, it's a
video-game website, so you sometimes get free game copies....", but.... I
dunno, it all seems kinda dodgy to me.]

~~~
ams6110
Yes. To hire is "to employ for wages" according to Apple's Dictionary app. Or
if you take the British meaning (mostly the same as the American meaning of
the word "rent") to obtain use for payment.

~~~
jaggederest
> Or if you take the British meaning (mostly the same as the American meaning
> of the word "rent") to obtain use for payment.

It's the same as the american meaning. To hire is to obtain for payment -
whether it is labor or machinery.

------
JeremyMorgan
It could be he didn't pay for the web design because it sucks and he can't
even hyperlink his own site correctly.

~~~
canttestthis
No, theres more to it.

> Just Like We Haven't Paid Our Webmaster or Accountant!

> and even refuses to respond to phone calls and emails.

~~~
JeremyMorgan
Of course there is, I don't do website design or development for the public
anymore due to years of dealing with problems like this, so I understand. It's
not very professional however, and makes himself look bad. Just disable the
site and remove everything you've done if you want the business owner to
answer your phone calls.

~~~
jiggy2011
Assuming he has the ability to do that and hasn't just sent all the code to
his client.

~~~
arcatek
If he has been able to change the page source, he should probably be able to
remove it.

~~~
jiggy2011
I guess it depends if the developer was also responsible for hosting the site
as opposed to just sending a .zip with .html files in it.

------
rpm4321
The "Webmaster" better hope he doesn't pay his attorney either.

~~~
tylermauthe
It's not libel if it's true! But it may be some sort of fraud / infringement.

~~~
dangrossman
Debt collection laws make it illegal to inform anyone about a third party's
debt (except their attorney, creditor, a credit reporting agency, and their
spouse). It's not libel, but publicly posting someone's debts is still
illegal.

~~~
gte910h
Are you sure that applies for businesses? Most laws for consumer protection
are personal, not business level.

------
zbruhnke
Well apparently their "Two highly gifted programmers" had a hard time making a
link in the footer point to their actual website so in case you're wondering
whose behind this here is the site of the "webmaster"

<http://www.alexlucastech.com>

Obviously not the smartest move this guy could have made. As someone who has
been pretty brash with collection practices in the past with customers who
refused to pay I do not mind saying this was plain dumb, the guy clearly could
use some lessons in running a business the right way

~~~
orionblastar
This looks like a father and son operation in Chicago.

You got many Mom and Pop operations like that who have technical skills but
don't have a lick of business sense or business experience. It is ironically
the main reason why so many Dotcom startups and Dotcom companies fail.

I figure they were in a hurry to add that link and so they rushed the job and
botched the link back to their web site. Then maybe they were locked out of
editing the web site because someone changed the password to the account they
were using. I figure someone will erase their notice and nobody will know the
difference. The only evidence will be this HN thread about it.

But seriously they need a lawyer to review their contract and find a way to
collect on the money. Unless the client is filing bankruptcy (there is a cycle
to it where a debtor can collect and cannot collect in the process of a
bankruptcy but it is so complex only a lawyer can figure it out). Writing
about it in public may even violate the contract in the first place if not
some laws as well.

------
gte910h
I have done iPhone consulting for years.

Don't hand over rights to use the work until they've paid. Assign copyright,
don't do work for hire. etc. Have cancellation clauses that detail EXACTLY how
the end of the relationship works. Get large amounts of the total payment in
intermediary payments.

Also, call a lawyer, don't do this.

------
Tekker
The two sons are 18 and 23 respectively. The older one, Alex, owns the DNS
record, so I'm guessing they have full access to the servers and all, and I'm
guessing it's the 23 in him that posted this (I wouldn't expect this from
someone more polished). The domain for the channelsource.BIZ site, however, is
owned by someone else (still in Champage, IL) and is also hosted elsewhere. So
it could be that AlexLucasTech is responsible for only the .ORG site. It does
seem that they control it.

I would argue that even though they control the site that it may contravene at
least a few laws, whether it's defacing a website - which they effectively did
- or some kind of defamation - not because they are owed money per se, but
they're clearly stating that if the company hires you then the company won't
pay you, which is speculation at best.

------
kriro
My only question is...

Why would you want to deal with a curmudgeon?

[surely I can't be the only one that snickered when he saw that as the main
item of the "webmaster's" page: <http://www.alexlucastech.com/>]

~~~
eagsalazar2
I snickered when I saw how they described themselves, on their incredibly assy
low-quality site, as "incredibly gifted programers".

------
javajosh
As much as I _hate_ abusive, powerful people and _love_ it when they get their
comeuppance, I have deep reservations about retaliatory acts like this. First
and foremost is that it's simply too easy to abuse.

But I understand. Our justice system is priced out of reach for most people.
(Although small claims court might be a good option for these guys, if the
amount owed is small.)

I think that one possible solution would be to simply improve the quality,
quantity, and fidelity of the complaint. Scan documents and post them. Take
video of yourself talking about the problem, and post them too. This is
certainly no substitute for a courtroom, and it doesn't avoid clearly
fraudulent claims of abuse, but at least it gives the reading public enough
information to make an informed decision.

Simply stating on a website that someone screwed you just doesn't cut it
anymore.

~~~
rtkwe
Small claims has really low limits, here in NC it's $5000 dollars, and
according to the text they're 8 months behind. Which would be a /really/ low
rate to fit in small claims.

edit: Texas has higher limits at $10000. I still think it's likely that their
owed debts exceed 10k.

------
fencepost
Worth noting from down in the text:

"If you would like to learn more about CHANNEL SOURCE, please visit our main
website, www.channelsource.biz. This .org website is a companion website
dedicated exclusively to team interactions."

------
chrisennis
About as creative use of the web as you'd expect from a "webmaster". I bet
this guy (<http://www.phildub.com/>) could have come up with something better.

------
tehwebguy
From the footer: > Website by Alexander Lucas Tech

Text links to <http://channelsource.org/www.alexlucastech.com> (404)

~~~
PhearTheCeal
They forgot the "<http://>. It should link to <http://www.alexlucastech.com/>

~~~
bradendouglass
And that, in itself, is absolute gold.

~~~
codygman
Took me a second, well played... AHA! I say.

------
orionblastar
Well this happens all too often in the industry, not paying people what they
are owed.

I have a brother-in-law who does work in California for 911 CAD systems as a
federal contractor and his business is subcontracted out by a contractor that
can't do the work but won the bid. Often he tells me this other company won't
pay him, and then he cannot pay his employees and has to find the owner and
ask him to write the check. Sometimes the owner writes the check but does not
sign it, and he has to go back and get him to sign it. He says this thing
happens all too often with contracts.

Now accountants and web administrators also are hired on contracts and
sometimes they don't get paid either. In this case the web administrator had
access to their web site and inserted that notice.

There was someone I knew called Michael David Crawford who was a software
contractor and he would do programming gigs for designing firmware and other
advanced programming. He wrote on a series of web sites about the places that
didn't pay him like Manpower, Drobo and others, even posting email from
managers to blogs and his web sites as proof. One manager and lawyer he posted
about at Drobo had the diary/blog he wrote at Kuro5hin taken down with a cease
and desist letter. He had posted a series of emails from them to prove what he
was trying to say, and they censored him and threated to sue him over it.
Sadly Michael went through a tough time, his wife divorced him, he couldn't
find any contract work, could not collect on money owed to him on contracts
for work he did, he started to go mad. He protested by disrupting Dotcom
events at the Hacker Dojo and in Portland:

[http://startupweekend.org/2012/04/30/not-even-bmob-
threats-c...](http://startupweekend.org/2012/04/30/not-even-bmob-threats-
could-deter-portlands-entrepreneurs-at-startup-weekend/)

[http://www.reddit.com/r/michaeldavidcrawford/comments/ur825/...](http://www.reddit.com/r/michaeldavidcrawford/comments/ur825/mike_crawford_on_his_hackerdojo_campaign_posted/)

[http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2012/04/startup...](http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2012/04/startup_weekend_entrepreneuria.html)

I don't know why he did those things, he considers himself a hacktivist, and
he has startup experience and even worked as a software consultant for Apple
and a few other big names as well in his career. (Mac System 7.5.X he worked
on, he said his name is in an easter egg in some of the versions)

I mean Michael was on CNN talking about the tax problem software consultants
face, and about the Joe Stack incident:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhLV7jydPJ8> of course CNN buried the
interview and Rick Sanchez was no longer at CNN, but someone captured it for
Youtube. He spoke out against using violence or threats of violence during
that interview. He mentioned that he would often get stiffed by the client in
that interview. But after that he was marked by authorities and wasn't paid
for his works and virtually blacklisted for speaking out. He even had his
worked cited by startups
<http://www.bearcave.com/misl/misl_tech/venture_capital.html>

From what I know he has been homeless and in and out of jail and a mental
hospital. I lost contact with him before he did those things or accused of
doing those things.

He is currently located here:
[http://www.slosheriff.org/whoisincustody/Detail.aspx?Booking...](http://www.slosheriff.org/whoisincustody/Detail.aspx?Booking_No=A00625189)

You can tell he is a totally different person in the CNN interview, and
sometime after that he was not paid for his contracts and they were terminated
short-term, and then all these bad things happened to him, and before I know
it he is protesting Startup events, and the like. I think he couldn't afford
his medication because he was homeless and without work. He often said as a
software contractor they would go without work and being stiffed by clients,
but still owe the money to the IRS because it is income even if he isn't paid
for it.

After he lost his contracts and couldn't collect on money owed him that he was
stiffed on, his web sites got taken down, and then auctioned off, and they had
the only evidence on them that could have cleared him and proven his
mistreatment. I think some domain squatters got them because they were at the
top of certain Google searches and they bought the domains for high traffic
advertising.

The mystery is this isn't the first time he's been in that jail, he was in
before and no charges listed, and 90 days later he was released, only to be
rearrested over and over again and released, and then finally they got some
charge of threatening with intent to terrorize or something. I have no idea
why. I think it is a BS charge like they did with Aaron Swartz and others, but
I am not 100% sure on that.

I thought I would cite his case as it is relevant to the topic as a worse case
scenario that happens when one isn't paid for their contracted work.

~~~
porter85
This is really sad to hear.

I knew Michael in college, and his problems were quite evident to those around
him, even then. At the same time you just knew in your bones that he was a
good person (better than most of of the people around him), and in possession
of a keen and fierce intellect, besides.

It's such a waste of resources to keep someone like that locked up. He's a
good man. He needs help and he needs love (and perhaps also medication). But
he doesn't need to be in jail, and he doesn't need to have his name dragged
through the public records like that.

~~~
orionblastar
Basically I think this is some sort of screwjob being done on him. I too know
that deep down he is a good person, he is just going through a bad time in his
life.

I am glad I could inform you on his situation, maybe you can order him
something in jail? I ordered a snack pack that contained Atomic Fireballs in
them because that is one of his favorites.

Yes he shouldn't be in jail, he should be in a mental hospital and be given
his medicine he was denied and be treated for his mental illness so he can
recover.

~~~
porter85
Thanks for the suggestion. I'll definitely look into it.

------
ajack
Do people still refer to themselves as "webmasters"?

~~~
jiggy2011
I always assumed the term referred to non-technical or semi-technical people
who do things like content authoring/proofreeding for company websites and
blogs using a CMS and perhaps do basic SEO.

------
qdnguyen
"What We Offer: • Competitive Wages" - from their employment apply page.

..Not sure if any other employer can beat them lol

------
jstanley
I don't understand this. What is the deal if they won't pay you?

Edit: Ah! Thanks for the replies. I get it now. :)

~~~
msbarnett
The webmaster/admin whom Channel Source apparently owes money added the "we
probably won't pay you" message, presumably to encourage them to make good on
their outstanding debts.

------
derpmaster
Lol hilarious.

The .biz site is cookie cutter bullshit full of buzzwords I wouldn't want to
pay for it either but I applaud these guys screwing over their stingy boss
anyways. Every web designer I've met has plenty of stories of not being paid
or being asked to build a megasite for an insultingly low figure by cheapskate
startups

~~~
orionblastar
Well they could have done a lot worse.

Like posting pictures of Goatse and Lemon Party on the main page of their
client's web site. It would drive away potential customers and ruin their
reputation.

------
helloamar
Maybe it's becoming a trend to attack the non paying employer or a client,
guess this is the 5th site on the same category.

Do post what's the reaction when the company has a look at your page.

------
aneth4
Really, how much could this site be worth?

If I got this type of work from someone I'd probably tell them no thanks and
stop returning their emails as well.

~~~
CKKim
Seriously?

If you asked someone to build a three page "We're Hiring" site and got this,
you'd "probably tell them no thanks and stop returning their emails". Why?

Their main .biz site looks fine to my eyes too, like thousands of other
business websites settled on functional and simple - I'm sure all of this was
built closely to spec. What am I missing here?

