
Why we should all learn from the ancient Greeks - benbreen
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jun/20/classics-for-the-people-ancient-greeks
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devindotcom
I think people should read enough from the classics to understand how old some
ideas are — we tend to think of certain philosophies, narrative styles, jokes,
and other things as relatively modern and usually they're much, much older
than that.

Once you understand that, you understand that you can trace ideas through
history and sometimes view their genesis and evolution — it adds a lot of
perspective.

That's a very valuable lesson and one that can be learned from relatively
little reading — after that, one may read or not read according to one's
taste. Not everyone is cut out to go straight through Aristotle, or Livy, or
what have you. You can get their ideas second hand (or third, or fourth, or
five hundredth) - the important part, I think, is learning that intelligence,
insight, humor, and wisdom are by no means modern contrivances (and may even
have suffered a little over time).

~~~
rokhayakebe
_I think people should read enough from the classics to understand how old
some ideas are_

The understatement of the century, or you are too nice.

 _I think people should read enough from the classics to understand how few
new ideas there are_

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nieksand
It's really sad that the author feels the need to be so defensive.

Apparently the idea that ancient Europeans, "Oldest Dead White European
Males", had a massive contribution to culture is somehow considered wrong and
offensive today.

I hope that the author is overreacting and not responding to a real
intellectual retardation prevalent in academia.

~~~
nemo
There are some areas in academia (esp. among Lit. Crit. and cultural studies
types) where the term DWEM (dead white european male) is used to criticize the
traditional canon as a kind of cultural chauvinism. I studied Classics where
that sentiment was not popular, and it wasn't something historians cared much
about. I did have some really disturbing conversations with hard-core
feminists and black studies students where they radically misunderstood what
they thought they were criticizing, so it's a thing in some domains. There are
some people who really think that the ideas of the birthplace of
constitutional democratic governance are at the root of authoritarianism and
imperialism. The tendency to diminish the accomplishment of the Greeks was
much more a thing in popularizing literature (things like Black Athena) than
serious academic work. So it depends a lot on the department (and the prof.),
and on the type of work they were doing. Oldest Dead White European Males was
also the title of a book by Bernard Knox explaining the relevance,
originality, and significance of the Greeks.

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coliveira
A great thing that you will learn from reading the ancient classics is that
people such as the Greeks and Romans were much closer to our modern ideals of
science and society than people of even 500 years ago, despite living in a
completely different world. I think the collapse of ancient civilizations was
one of the most culturally damaging events of human history, and we are lucky
that we managed to revert, at least partially, the decay of knowledge that
ensued.

~~~
roel_v
"at least partially"

What knowledge was lost then, that made the past 'better' (for a morally
neutral meaning of that word)? (please don't say 'damascus steel')

~~~
restalis
That was a provision, as one may never be fully aware of how much was there to
begin with, considering that we're talking about a flourishing period for so
many things (about which we've managed to savage knowledge).

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deodorel
One thing that bothers me is the author remark that the Greeks never had any
organised state like structure except for the Macedonian kingdoms ..yes they
did for like 1000 years. It was called the Byzantine empire. Before the modern
Greek state appeared the Greek diaspora used to identify itself not as Greek
but as romai ... Citizen of the eastern roman empire.

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mooneater
I want a minimal list of what I should read from the ancient Greeks to get a
reasonable understanding of the most important things. Any greek geeks care to
comment on what the absolute must-not-be-missed works are? Im trying to learn
too many things at once to be comprehensive.

~~~
mckoss
On the Nature of Things (De rerum natura) by Lucretius is a fascinating
glimpse at the foundation of scientific thought from the 1st century BC. I
just finished reading it; it's an interesting mix of combining logic with
observation to try to understand physical phenomenon. He gets many things
wrong from a modern understanding of physics; but there are many prescient
ideas including the idea of indivisible particles of matter and that much of
what we interpret as "solid" is primarily composed of empty space.

~~~
kwhitefoot
I think it's important to note that Lucretius was a poet not a philosopher or
scientist. He didn't invent the ideas he related he was trying to preserve
them for posterity.

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elliptic
Can someone summarize or translate (for non-Britons) the paragraph dealing
with the educational background of Classics students?

~~~
kagamine
I think the point was essentially that Greek and Latin as languages were only
taught to the upper classes, those who pay for their education at private
schools up to age 18. Those people, educated in subjects not open to the
commoners, and at additional expense, then have an advantage when applying for
a place an Oxford/Cambridge on the classics courses. Those courses then take
in a disproportionate number of upper class students. Thus, the British class
system is continued and reinforced by those universities that have been
criticized in the past for not taking enough commoners.

Ie, they form a club based on talking dead languages no-one else understands
and use Greek/Latin as a qualification for being included in the club, as well
as where you were educated.

Class is very much a thing in the UK in certain circles. I have known people
to succeed where others were forced to fail because of where they were
educated.

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ZenoArrow
While there seems to be a rich seam of culture that can be mined from the
ancient Greeks, does the source of the ideas really matter? If we're looking
to teach about the ideas behind human culture in schools, could we not
incorporate the ideas from the Greeks, Romans, etc... in some form of
Sociology course (like Sociology but with an expanded remit)? Can also use the
ideas from the ancient world to enhance Critical Thinking courses and History
courses and Literature courses.

I guess what I'm saying is I'd prefer to see the fruits of the ancient world
to be used to enhance a broad range of subjects, to help us contrast them with
ideas throughout our history, rather than treating it as a single subject.

~~~
happimess
I see where you're coming from, but poems, plays, and sculpture _are_ "the
fruits of the ancient world." A work like the Iliad only comes around once
every few millennia, and no synopsis will frame its ideas so starkly.

The Iliad and The Odyssey are two of the most thrilling pieces of literature
available to a reader today, and they both pose difficult moral questions. I
just can't imagine a sociology textbook writer formulating a "What do you
think: Glory, or Contentedness?" segment as compelling as the entire arc of
Achilles' role in the battle for Troy.

So yes, the lessons of the ancient world are applicable to a broad range of
subjects, but the art is also valuable in and of itself.

~~~
ZenoArrow
"So yes, the lessons of the ancient world are applicable to a broad range of
subjects, but the art is also valuable in and of itself."

True, but I did mention studying these works through Literature courses, would
this not be a suitable way to approach The Iliad and The Odyssey?

I guess I'd rather have a greater amount of flexibility in the education
system for bringing together both old and new ideas. Whilst there's certainly
plenty of material worthy of study from the activity of the ancient Greeks,
what about other periods of time? If we have a separate course on the
classics, should we have a course on the Renaissance as well (for example)?

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brobdingnagian
First read this as "Why we should all learn ancient Greek" :)

~~~
kagamine
I still find it frustrating that I was never taught Latin at school, I could
be more smart now if I had learned grammer right.

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comrade1
I read Greek classics - mostly philosophers. I usually have something going as
I read modern stuff. And I say, the Greek stuff can be pretty boring. It's a
lot of pontificating and observation and doesn't really interest modern
readers.

I don't think everyone needs to read 'the classics', but some should.

~~~
thirteenfingers
> mostly philosophers

No wonder you say you can find the Greek stuff "pretty boring." There's _so
much more_ to Greek literature than philosophy. Try

* Homer - the closest thing the Greeks had to the Bible, yet so different in spirit in that it raises unanswerable questions about the Greeks' beliefs, without affirming them

* Aristophanes - slapstick humor

* Sophocles, Euripides, Aeschylus - the great tragedians

* Herodotus, Thucydides, Xenophon - some of the greatest historians ever, although they fall somewhat short of our modern standards for historical rigor

* Lysias - mainly valuable as a record of the Greek legal process

* Lucian - for satire (if you don't like philosophers, you'll love Lucian)

~~~
mpyne
Thucydides is especially interesting for me since he was a historian--but far
from being a dispassionate observer, actually played a small role in the
history he was trying to describe (as you hint at when discussing their
rigor).

