
The Selfie and the Self: In Defence of Duckface (2019) - ericdanielski
https://www.versobooks.com/blogs/4321-the-selfie-and-the-self-in-defence-of-duckface
======
devmunchies
Tangent... the title mentions the duckface, but that is a clear soyface (males
"expressing surprise or excitement with their mouth agape")

[https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/soy-boy-
face](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/soy-boy-face)

I personally don't believe it's soy, its just the meme. Don't hate the
messenger.

------
ratel
The OP and apparently the book following Goffman make a huge leap in stating
that selfies somehow give insight in a persons back stage behavior as opposed
to front stage behavior. There is no reason given why a conscious act of
performance completely controlled by the subject itself is now somehow an
insight into back stage.

I would say taking a selfie is a form of front stage behavior, albeit a more
egalitarian one.

On the other hand I am someone who thought a selfie-stick was a tool for
punishment for people taking selfies at inappropriate moments.

~~~
munificent
_> I would say taking a selfie is a form of front stage behavior, albeit a
more egalitarian one._

I think this hinges on whether the person taking the photo is aware of the
people around them at that point in time. If they really aren't thinking about
them at all, it's essentially "authentic" back-stage behavior. If you don't
realize someone is looking in your bathroom window while taking a shower, you
probably can't be honestly claimed to be making a social performance in there.

If they are deliberately considering the people around them when taking the
photo is part of the audience for their act, then, yes, it's clearly front-
stage behavior.

In practice, it is probably some shade of gray between these two extremes. The
line between front stage and back stage is always somewhat blurry.

~~~
ratel
Sorry, there seems to be a disconnect here. Yes the difference between back
stage and front stage is a gray-scale. However that was not my point: Making
selfies is an act of front stage, not because there might be other people
around, but by the mere fact you are making a photo of yourself with the
purpose of it being seen by others. The performance is that what we see on the
photo, not the conditions it is made under.

The conditions it is under might make it into more of a front stage, but given
that the selfie itself is front stage the fact that you are not hiding making
it is very hard to see as "authentic" back stage behavior.

People might use selfies to practice (back stage behavior), but you will
normally never see those and what they do present is obviously fit for front
stage.

Yes you might walk into someone practicing with selfies, or accidentally see
some practice selfies, but that in itself does not provide better or more
reliable information than any other incidental back stage information like
seeing someone in the shower.

Now if your point was that selfies invite us to perform too much and practice
too little than we are in agreement.

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minikites
I thought about the "sculpture taking a selfie" when I read this article:
[https://observer.com/2016/01/this-viral-image-makes-a-
bold-s...](https://observer.com/2016/01/this-viral-image-makes-a-bold-
statement-in-defense-of-selfie-culture/)

>The thing about this is that sculptures like these in art history were for
the male gaze. Photoshop a phone to it and suddenly she’s seen as vain and
conceited. That’s why I’m 100% for selfie culture because apparently men can
gawk at women but when we realize how beautiful we are we’re suddenly full of
ourselves.

~~~
cat199
Isn't a third party admiring/honoring someones beauty independently an
inherently different act than publicly proposing that ones own beauty should
be admired?

agree there can be a double standard, but if there is, it can go both ways

------
harryf
Hmmm this article says a lot without really saying anything. It concludes with
implication that we should stop shaming people for posting selfies, without
tackling the question "why do people publish selfies in the first place?" or
managing to refute the idea that it's narcissistic.

This paper
[https://www.ntu.edu.sg/home/linqiu/publications/selfie.pdf](https://www.ntu.edu.sg/home/linqiu/publications/selfie.pdf)
shows...

> " that selfies reflect their owners’ personality traits. We identified a
> number of personality-related cues. For example, emotional positivity
> predicts agreeableness and open-ness, duckface indicates neuroticism, and
> private location in the background indicates less conscientiousness. These
> cues reflect the characteristics of their corresponding personality traits"

Meanwhile the article focused on the Oxford dictionary definition of selfie.
I'd argue it's far more interesting to look at the urbandictionary definitions
- there are over 70 definitions here -
[https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Selfie](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Selfie)
some of which are over 10 years old like this one from 2009...

> A picture taken of yourself that is planned to be uploaded to Facebook,
> Myspace or any other sort of social networking website. You can usually see
> the person's arm holding out the camera in which case you can clearly tell
> that this person does not have any friends to take pictures of them so they
> resort to Myspace to find internet friends and post pictures of themselves,
> taken by themselves. A selfie is usually accompanied by a kissy face or the
> individual looking in a direction that is not towards the camera.

Duck face was called "kissy face" back then apparently. Anyway it's
interesting to see how a definition on urbandictionary has evolved over time
and I'd argue the urbandictionary is a better gauge of groupthink on a topic
like this than the Oxford Dictionary.

~~~
hippich
We should not shame people - that should be enough on its own IMHO :)

~~~
asa4akj
Completely disagree. Shame is a very potent society shaping factor. Without it
humans wouldn't be as civilized.

So we should just use shame appropriately.

~~~
hippich
Intuitively, I agree with potential shaping factor. But shaming making people
civilized - that certainly deserves a citation.

But that's all besides the point. Judging by myself only of course, I
seriously doubt people shame others because of the duty to higher purpose
(making people civilized).

~~~
vageli
Shame is a way to impose social norms without violence. To me it is intuitive
that shame is a fundamental tool used to organize groups, especially when
thinking about the formation of more primitive societies. Not intended to
replace a citation, just my two cents.

~~~
soared
A sportscaster recently talked about how great public shaming is. Athletes who
make dumb tweets learn better if they’re publicly shamed rather than when they
are suspended from playing.

That makes sense to me - do something dumb socially, the repercussions should
be social as well.

~~~
nitrogen
This is definitely a position that is easier to hold in a position of
privilege/popularity.

Shaming has rather drastic negative consequences, especially in communities
that shame intelligence, education, gender, race, neurotype, etc.

~~~
pc86
I don't think anyone here implied shaming doesn't have [potentially negative]
consequences.

It's a non-violent tool to shape societal or group norms. If you are in a
shitty group (e.g. one that shames education), that doesn't change the
argument.

~~~
nitrogen
Rule #1 with any weapon is to ask what it looks like when the tables are
turned and someone uses it against you.

~~~
asa4akj
Every weapon is bad in the arms of the enemy. I won't be cutting any hands
because they can form fists.

------
xwdv
I always thought it was odd the selfie stick was so hated. It seems like a
clever solution for getting a better photo, and it’s not like it bothers
anyone else around.

But I feel that’s why people hate it, it’s _too_ clever. Seems to get derided
the same way a nerd kid gets beat the fuck up in school.

~~~
cassepipe
Idk know about it being "so hated" but it is sure enough the object of mockery
because it means you actually spent money on it/ bothered to carry it around
for the purpose of taking photos of your face, which, without thinking people
taking selfies are monsters, I personally don't understand the appeal. I have
no interest in taking pictures of myself even more so sharing them. I kinda
see it as I see that thing that you're supposed to grab ice cubes with or
elaborate beer-bottle openers. Those object kinda of make you feel that some
people feel that they don't fully exist if they don't own __things __.

~~~
collyw
> I have no interest in taking pictures of myself even more so sharing them

As an old git (45) it seems strange to me that today's youth have known
nothing else but a world where sharing pictures of yourself on social media is
the norm. It's like its part of the reason for living.

~~~
cassepipe
The problem I have with images is that it is so easy to __say __things with
them without having to take responsibility for any speech. Just imagine an
Instagram feed but instead of pictures, it would read "I am so much more
wealthy than you all" or "Look at me, I am happy" or "Hey! See how many
friends I have?!" or "I've got such a beautiful body"? That would be more fun.

