
Few Cities Could Accommodate Amazon's New Headquarters - johan_larson
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-09-07/few-cities-could-accommodate-amazon-s-new-headquarters
======
ecshafer
I think Philadelphia is a good choice. Center City is a 30 minute drive to
Philly international airport. Land is relatively cheap, much cheaper than NYC,
Boston, or dc. We have an ivy league school in the city, with another less
than an hour away, as well as many other schools in the area. We have a large
metro population with a good size technical and business industry already. We
also have rail and sea shipping available. and there is also a convenience
factor being nearby to NYC and DC both being a hour and a half train ride.

~~~
AbortedWalrus
I posted this elsewhere but I'll repost here:

The Navy Yard literally ticks every box of their requirements:

30 Mile proximity to population center: It's IN the city.

45 Minute proximity to international airport: It's about 15 minutes drive from
the airport, or you can take mass transit.

1-2 Miles from Major highways: It sits basically ON I-95 Close to Major
arterial roads: Within 10 minutes of 295, NJ Turnpike, I-76

Access to mass transit at site: Bus routes to site, subway stop a 5 minute
shuttle ride from site

500,000 sqft of development space: Currently prepped for 4,000,000 sqft of
office development, shovel ready

Up to 8,000,000 Sq Ft of Development space beyond 2027: 13.5 Million square
feet of space at full build out.

Literally every box ticked, in a tax haven. The city could justify a BSL
expansion to the Navy Yard with this sort of development, so they could throw
that in as a deal sweetener.

There is also the Schuylkill Yards district in planning which would involve
capping the train yard next to 30th street station. Both Schuylkill Yards and
the Navy Yard have master plans in place, and the Navy Yard is ready for this
basically day one. Both are Keystone Opportunity Zones and have abatements on
almost all state and local taxes.

Philly really is a perfect fit.

~~~
ecshafer
I was thinking center City. But you're right, navy yard would be a good fit.

------
Jemaclus
I find it interesting how many of these comments are sales pitches for their
chosen cities. I don't have any preferences, since I have no desire to work
for Amazon nor do I think my current city of SF is a good choice for reasons
laid out in the article.

What I'm most interested in, however, is how you get around some of these
problems. The article points out a number of issues:

Can even Amazon afford to pay 50,000 people on a New York or SF salary? That's
going to be (almost) prohibitively expensive. They certainly can pay for a
Michigan salary or an Alabama salary, but is the job market there in those
places? The Philadelphia example from the beginning points out that while the
city is large enough, the job growth hasn't been there for quite some time,
implying that there might not be enough people to fill the needed jobs.

Could a city like Birmingham, AL or Gary, IN or Lincoln, NE support 50,000 new
jobs? Are there enough available homes to house all those people? Parking
spaces? What about the support jobs? For every N employees, you need M doctors
or dentists or accountants or fast food workers or maids or auto mechanics to
support the growing population. Are those jobs there? Are there people
qualified to take those jobs? Can the new traffic be handled smoothly? I think
the answer is "yes" to the above in the long term, but is Amazon going to put
their HQ in an up-and-coming town and just deal with the growing pains in the
short term? Or would they rather go to a larger city and skip those problems?

What about international airports? That limits it to a dozen or so cities
around the country. Can Amazon survive in a place like Nashville, TN? Why or
why not? Are there ways to mitigate potential problems of not being able to
fly to London or Paris direct?

IMO, the potential cities themselves are much less important and much less
interesting than the problems that moving a 50,000 person HQ to almost any
city would cause.

~~~
_red
Houston.

Low Taxes. Low Cost of Living. International Airport. Major Port. Plenty of
Housing. Universities.

~~~
not_kurt_godel
Low-lying land! Surely you must be joking?

~~~
em3rgent0rdr
I think you are getting unfairly downvoted here. Clearly low-lying land is a
serious concern for any entity with a long-term planning horizon. Most
floodzone land should be left for low development, such as farming.

~~~
not_kurt_godel
Yup. Why would anyone choose to build headquarters in a place that blatantly
disregards dire existential threats to its people and economy with
demonstrably catastrophic results?

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jetblackio
Seems like Denver would be good choice, considering how alike Seattle and
Denver are. There's plenty of hiking, biking, camping, etc in the area, and
it's central location is convenient for any travel to both the east and west
coast.

Denver also has an excellent craft brewery scene. Denver / Boulder are already
tech hubs in their own right as well.

~~~
Florin_Andrei
Shouldn't Amazon be more interested in the economic conditions, rather than
hiking and biking and the brewery scene?

~~~
scarmig
Tons of sunbelt and non-coastal cities have spent decades optimizing for cheap
land and making themselves "business friendly" over all other concerns.

They still don't have much of a tech scene or high impact industries. And the
same calculus that has prevented a mass migration of tech companies to Boise
or Waco is the same calculus that will prevent Amazon from moving there
either.

My bet is Boulder; the Research Triangle; or Philly.

~~~
bradleyjg
Boulder is too small. The whole city only has a 100,000 now. It's got a
greenbelt and height restrictions, so you can't build it out much more. And
there's very little regional mass transit to get people into and out of the
residential areas beyond the greenbelt. There's nowhere to put another 50,000
families. Plus it is on the wrong side of Denver from the airport.

Denver or one of its suburbs would be a decent choice, but not Boulder.

------
rmason
He needs to add Detroit to his list. Amazon already has two large warehouses
and a small developer office there. The only negative on the list is a less
than overwhelming public transport system.

But they've got lots of cheap land, and both an international airport and an
international border as well as three world class universities within an hours
drive. Not to mention a metro area with a population of 4.5 million.

~~~
pseudonymGuy
Which universities are within an hours drive? Michigan, obviously.

~~~
rambleraptor
People in the Metro Detroit area seem to conflate University of Michigan,
Michigan State, and Wayne State as being equals / near equals.

~~~
jordache
The big state colleges are regarded as equals in the state, only in athletic
terms. Everyone knows Michigan is the lone standout academically.

------
bovermyer
The Twin Cities are looking at courting Amazon for this. IMO, Minneapolis
would be a great location for it. We fit the RFP criteria.

~~~
jamesmishra
Minneapolis would definitely be a great choice.

For those that don't know Minneapolis like the parent commenter and I do:

\- Amazon already has an engineering office in Minneapolis. Check out some of
the jobs here.

\- Amazon has a fulfillment center in Shakopee, MN -- a third ring suburb ~30
miles away from Minneapolis.

\- This is mostly anecdotal on my part, but it's pretty typical for top
computer science students at the University of Minnesota to go to Amazon /
Microsoft in Seattle. Silicon Valley doesn't seem to bother recruiting in
Minnesota, but Seattle-based companies seem to have good luck recruiting out
of Minnesota -- where the weather is even worse.

\- Minneapolis has the headquarters of some of Amazon's biggest "old retail"
competitors -- Target and Best Buy. A large Amazon presence in Minneapolis
would go a long way to poaching the top 10% of talent at both companies.

\- Minneapolis also has a small but promising tech community. BuzzFeed and a
few other tech companies have an engineering office in Minneapolis.

~~~
0x4f3759df
Minneapolis is such a long shot in my opinion, because very ambitious people
tend to move to the coasts.

~~~
humbleMouse
That's a common theme parroted by many, and a lot of ambitious people do
indeed move to the coast. However, I think you are underestimating the amount
of ambitious people in minneapolis and the surrounding area. We have tons of
fortune 500 companies here and lots of world class smart ambitious people.

Not everyone is a 20 something who has no family obligations and is willing to
go work anywhere in the country. Furthermore, in minneapolis we have very high
salaries relative to cost of living. If you make 120k here you're basically
rich and can save an enormous amount per month. This kind of salary to cost of
living ratio allows an ambitious person to save tons of money each month and
invest it how they please.

Anyhow, I don't think minneapolis is a long shot. We have a very good economy
and infrastructure and lots of people doing smart/ambitious things.

------
blaisio
It's interesting, because they really need to pick a city that won't have
trouble attracting software developers. Some large companies (like Epic) have
trouble recruiting and have to pay people way more because they're so far away
from normal tech hubs.

~~~
kinkrtyavimoodh
I think Epic also has trouble recruiting because they work on an outdated
stack using an arcane (and often counterintuitive) programming language for an
industry that is itself probably a few decades late to any tech (probably for
good reason, but the point stands).

------
gist
Article in typical fashion [1] confuses what something currently is (a city)
with what it could be if they won the bid.

One only has to look at Orlando Florida and Walt Disney World as an example of
what can happen to a region over time.

[1] By a publication looking for page views.

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ojbyrne
I think Toronto came first in their final list for a reason. It's a way to
hedge against US immigration policies and also for Jeff Bezos to thumb his
nose at Trump.

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SEJeff
South of Chicago is suuuuper cheap and has lots of available space.

~~~
60654
City proper - outside of the lakefront - is not prohibitively expensive
either.

But I'm just weirded out by how the article discounts Chicago based on
assumptions about, what, tax policy? Where is this coming from? The Rahm is
lobbying hard, and he's very pro-bigcorp, as McDonald's new 500,000 sqft world
headquarters in West Loop can attest to.

Regardless of where Amazon lands (and I don't really have a horse in that
race), Bloomberg's weird hang-up about Chicago are no more than a distraction.
It's bad enough that Michael Bloomberg is personally spending $millions on TV
ads to support the Cook Cty soda tax in a state where he doesn't even reside.
Ugh.

~~~
jordache
Everyone is leaving IL, why would Amazon be the lone exception?

~~~
jordache
LOL the IL homer who down voted.. [https://www.illinoispolicy.org/cook-county-
has-largest-popul...](https://www.illinoispolicy.org/cook-county-has-largest-
population-loss-of-any-county-in-the-u-s/)

------
joshdance
SLC might be too 'small' but it growing, has a super strong university system
and tons of software engineers.

~~~
pc2g4d
SLC metro population: 1+ million

Including SLC and Utah counties both: 2+ million

University of Utah, Brigham Young University, Utah Valley University

Substantial tech talent, startup scene. Adobe, EA, Ebay, Microsoft, Oracle all
have a presence. And don't forget the NSA.

International airport connects to Canada, France, Mexico, Netherlands, UK...
but will take two hops to get anywhere else.
[https://www.slcairport.com/assets/pdfDocuments/Flight-
Schedu...](https://www.slcairport.com/assets/pdfDocuments/Flight-Schedule-
Info/International-Destinations-by-Airline-September-2017.pdf)

Meetingplace of I-15, I-80, I-84

Culture almost the complete opposite of Seattle's.

Mountain Time Zone

Killer cost of living

Government willing to make substantial concessions to tech companies

But... I'm guessing it's just not quite connected enough to be seriously
considered.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
I did my undergrad at UW and my grad at UU, I would say the cultures between
SLC and Seattle aren't far off, in fact, SLC is the only city I ever knew to
have 24 hour coffee shops. Not to mention mountains, hiking, and skiing.

------
chis
Most of the internal talk I've seen favors Vancouver. It's geographically
close (with excellent transportation), is big but still has room to grow.
Canada in general is a good choice because they have more lax limmigration
policies.

~~~
rainbowmverse
What's the value in having two headquarters a few hours apart?

~~~
notirk
The cities are geographically close, but there is an international border
between them. Canada has more open immigration laws opening up Amazon to a
much wider talent pool. Considering that major difference, there could be a
strong case made for having these major offices close by for in person
collaboration.

~~~
scj
While we are friendly to immigration, Canadian citizens will need to work
there too (in order for government incentives to be doled out)... Otherwise,
the public will eventually demand those benefits rescinded.

As a ballpark number, if Amazon wants to hire 50k people, I'd imagine they'd
need at least 20k Canadians. So I suspect they'll need to convince Canadian
programmers to move there.

I can't pretend to speak for all Canadian citizens, but given the choice:

1\. Move to the most expensive real estate market in the country, where the
raise in wages wouldn't account for the price difference in housing costs. To
work for an employer with Amazon's reputation towards employees... (that's the
most polite way I could put that)

2\. Immigrate to SV under a TN visa, with the chance of working on interesting
valley projects.

Despite both options having a crazy housing market, #2 is much more
attractive. The value proposition can be changed though. I'd move in a
heartbeat if the same wages were available in Montreal. Same for any Canadian
city other than Vancouver and Toronto.

~~~
ojbyrne
Assuming the TN visa is still around in a year.

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marchenko
A second tier Midwestern(ish) city could be a good option. Cleveland and
Pittsburgh would be good choices, assuming the relocation induces more flight
availability from CLE and PIT. Case and CMU produce a lot of tech grads, and
Cleveland has been successful attracting medical professionals to relocate
with its excellent hospital system. The housing stock, CoL, and cultural
amenities are excellent. Pittsburgh already has a few bigtech connections and
satellite offices. Columbus and Minneapolis would also fit the bill.

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hnaccy
I hope they pick Atlanta but I doubt techies want to live in the South.

~~~
macintux
I'd think the massive calamity known as Atlanta traffic would be more off-
putting than "living in the South". I know I'd love to find someplace warmer
to live.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Warmer but more humid. The Deep South is definitely air conditioning country.

~~~
mindcrime
You don't even have to be in the Deep South to need A/C. I live in North
Carolina, which is "South but not Deep South" and I can't imagine living here
without A/C.

------
jgalt212
Atlanta is a great choice for all reasons mentioned by others and such a move
would go a long way towards solving tech's diversity problem.

------
hueving
Vegas. Land is cheap, the weather is less miserable than Boston although it is
indeed miserable in the summer. A couple of hours from LA and a major airport.

------
bharris62
I know both Nashville and Memphis Tn are making a bid on it. Lots of business
moving into Nashville area, and lots of room to expand.

------
Upvoter33
Crazy not to add NYC to the list. Huge Google office there now, Facebook
growing. Would be a good fit.

~~~
bradleyjg
Cost of living and unwillingness to bend over backwards for tax breaks take
NYC out of the running. I think their list -- Toronto, Boston, Washington,
Atlanta, Dallas or Denver -- is pretty decent though Washington and Toronto
seem less likely than the others (COLA and ex-US respectively).

Except for being unwilling/unable to offer very high tax breaks, Chicago would
be right up there too. But I have to imagine that's going to be a very
significant factor.

Other long shot, but still plausible, cities are: Las Vegas, Charlotte,
Detroit, and Minneapolis.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
Nobody with half a brain opens an big location in the Boston area. If you
don't hate money you go to NH.

------
orteam
I would bet on Canada, so either Toronto or Montreal. The whole continuity
reason for the second HQ needs to address possible political and regulatory
disruptions as well. They need the option to flip jurisdiction as a leverage.

~~~
0x4f3759df
If you are thinking long term, consider a large scale war, if China and the US
get into a large scale conflict, Toronto might be spared.

------
scarmig
I'm just hoping San Jose wins its bid, for no other reason than it'd amuse me.

------
skookumchuck
Amazon's announcement came right on the heels of Seattle enacting an income
tax on higher income people. The city government has done a number of other
anti-business initiatives and rhetoric.

Seattle has been taking Amazon for granted, suddenly the Mayor is taking an
interest in Amazon:

'“My office will immediately begin conversations with Amazon around their
needs with today’s announcement and the company’s long-term plans for
Seattle,” Seattle Mayor Ed Murray said in statement Thursday.'

[http://www.seattletimes.com/business/amazon/amazons-
announce...](http://www.seattletimes.com/business/amazon/amazons-announcement-
of-hq-outside-of-seattle-sends-ripples-through-states-political-circles/)

------
mindcrime
Amazon should consider the Triangle (Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill) area of NC.
There's definitely a strong university presence here, as well as an existing
workforce of highly skilled / educated folks working at companies like Red
Hat, IBM, Cisco, Credit Suisse, Deutsche Bank, Glaxo-Smith-Kline, Microsoft,
and the like. The Raleigh metro area population was 2.16 million in 2011 and
this is one of the fastest growing areas in the country (or was as of
2015)[1].

The Triangle is also in a sweet spot between beaches to the east, within about
a 1.5 hour to 2.5 hour drive, and mountains to the west, within about 4-5
hours. And locally we have lots of outdoor green spaces with plenty of trails
for running, hiking, mountain biking, etc.

We have major league sports (the NHL Carolina Hurricanes) and minor league
baseball (Durham Bulls) and soccer (NC Football Club, formerly the Carolina
Railhawks).

The local airport has direct flights to Seattle, San Francisco, Los Angeles,
London, Paris, New York, Chicago, Atlanta, DC, and Toronto among others.

There's a nice nightlife scene here with each of the three "points" of the
Triangle being a "college town" (Duke, UNC Chapel Hill, and North Carolina
State being the major universities). And if you like music, you can get
everything from jazz at Beyu Cafe, to the NC Symphony Orchestra at Meymandi
Hall in Raleigh, to black metal / death metal / metalcore / etc. at The
Maywood in Raleigh, and all sorts of eclectic shit at the Cat's Cradle in
Carrboro. And Trans-Siberian Orchestra always has a stop here at PNC Arena on
their winter tour. And that's not even mentioning Motorco and the Durham
Performing Arts Center in Durham, or Lincoln Theater or Walnut Creek
Ampitheatre in Raleigh.

There's plenty of good food to be had here, although admittedly not quite the
variety found in Seattle, Chicago, New York or San Francisco, etc. But still
you can find a very nice range of options here. Lots of good Thai food in
particular.

All in all, despite the embarrassing fuckups by our state government over the
past couple of years that have made the national news, this really is a nice
place to live and work. And the Triangle metro area is really a different
world from the rural parts of NC. Yeah, if you go looking, you can find some
pretty backwards, uneducated, ignorant people in NC, but the area here is very
diverse, educated, cultured, etc.

[1]:
[https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/morning_call/2015/01/fo...](https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/morning_call/2015/01/forbes-
raleigh-is-4th-fastest-growing-city-in-u-s.html)

