
Anonymous Cancels Operation Cartel as Los Zetas Track Hacktivists - aaronbrethorst
http://idealab.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/11/report-anonymous-cancels-operation-cartel.php
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forensic
It's difficult to wage an information war with gangsters. The ones who get to
the top by killing and torturing are not likely to be threatened by having a
few emails released. All the shit runs downhill to the relatively innocent
civilians being extorted by the gangsters.

If knowledge of who the crime bosses are was enough to take them down, they
would not exist in the first place. Organized crime does not require secrecy
to operate when the police are corrupted.

~~~
rdl
The only way to fight criminals at a scale where they threaten the state is
through intelligence and military techniques, not law enforcement.

Find them, build up decent evidence, kill them; don't try to prosecute. The
risk is turning into a star chamber or right wing paramilitary, but I would
trust the professionalism and morality of an organization like the us military
to resist that. Plan Colombia worked out ok, compared to Peru vs shining path,
for instance.

~~~
tjmc
Or end the futile prohibition on drugs and tax them instead. Worked for
alcohol.

~~~
dylangs1030
That is an over-simplified solution to a complicated problem. Organized crime
would change, not cease to exist. Countries where prostitution is legal still
see organized abuses in the industry, like brothel owners not following
regulations, etc. Moreover, marijuana has the highest likelihood of being
legalized of any drug (still not likely) and yet, it is the lowest profit
margin for organized crime. Cocaine, ecstasy, heroin, etc. are much more
profitable, and legalizing these would be socially irresponsible, if fiscally
lucrative.

~~~
mdda
Profit margins should be expected to be proportionate to illegality : Since
the threat of punishment forces vibrant competition out of the market.

Similarly, one can track the effectiveness of the war on drugs by looking at
the street prices of drugs over time. If the war was effective, prices would
be rising. Unfortunately, basic economic theory shows that the war on drugs is
a complete failure.

~~~
dylangs1030
Right. And like I said, it might be a fiscal improvement to legalize drugs.
You could earn money from it. But, and i mean this in all sincerity, do you
want to live in a society where they're freely accessible?

~~~
knieveltech
If you live anywhere in North America, you're already living in a society
where they're freely accessible, so in that respect prohibition has clearly
failed.

I understand we've all been propagandized to believe that drug use is
inherently evil, however it's a mistake to lose site of the fact that (at
least in the US) the prison system is largely a subcontracted for-profit
industry. An industry with a clearly vested interest in maintaining soaring
drug-related conviction rates as well as mandatory minimum sentencing.

I, for one, would absolutely prefer to live in a society where drug dependency
is treated like a disease and treated.

~~~
dylangs1030
I agree that rehabilitation is more important that penalization for drug
abuse, but towards the original point, drugs aren't accessible in the sense
that they're not legal. You cannot get them as easily as you can a gallon of
milk.

~~~
epicureanideal
You're right, I cannot call the milkman to open up the store and let me buy
some milk at 3am, or better yet get milk delivered to my door with less than a
30 minute lag time.

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w1ntermute
Sounds like Los Zetas tracing the Anonymi is just coincidentally concurrent to
their decision not to release the information. The real reason why they're not
releasing it is because the civilians they were intending to expose aren't
actually members of Los Zetas, and would just get killed by the cartel if they
were to be exposed.

~~~
lizzard
And they probably won't bother to trace actual Anonymous folks exposing this
information but may end up targeting random people who are into computers, or
even heavy social media users.

~~~
tsotha
I think you're underestimating the reach of these cartels. I doubt they have
the resources to find hackers, but they _do_ have people feeding them
information from inside the Mexican and US governments.

Also, the Anonymous people have made themselves a pain in the ass to
governments who have the resources to find them. Even if the cartels don't
have ears in the right place it's not hard for me to imagine a list of
probable Anonymous members somehow making it into their hands.

~~~
humbledrone
> I doubt they have the resources to find hackers.

The Los Zetas cartel, being the second largest cartel in Mexico, probably has
revenues of well over a billion dollars per year. (It's estimated that the
overall earnings of all Mexican drug smugglers is $13-40 billion.)

I'm pretty sure that's enough money to hire a hacker or two.

~~~
TheEzEzz
You need more than money if you're buying something illegally. You also need a
certain amount of sophistication to know you're getting what you want.

~~~
humbledrone
In this case, I'm pretty sure that money is enough. It's not like the cartel
needs to know anything about hacking or how to choose good hackers. All they
have to do is tie the monetary reward to the result they want (track down the
Anonymous member who said this), and _somebody_ will figure it out, through
hacking or other means.

As an aside, I don't know of any billion-dollar industry that doesn't have a
fairly high level of sophistication. I don't see why the cartels should be any
different.

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redthrowaway
This whole op was fishy from the get-go. For one, the person speaking in the
original video had a mainland Spanish accent but used Mexican vocabulary. Two,
no anons within Mexico spoke out in support of the op. Three, nobody was able
to verify the claim that an anon was kidnapped in the first place. Four,
nobody could figure out where this op was discussed or planned. It came out of
the blue without any previous involvement from the main organizing channels.

The whole thing is just bizarre.

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cpeterso
How do we know this op was announced by the "real" Anonymous? How long until
the CIA is posing as Anonymous to incite rebellion in other countries (and/or
make Anonymous look bad)?

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hugh3
Since when _is_ there a "real" Anonymous? Heck, I went to an anti-scientology
protest one time, surely that gives me as much of a right as anybody to claim
to be Anonymous.

~~~
sliverstorm
It's heavy with irony, but it is suspected there are a few masterminds with
the "keys to the kingdom" of Anonymous- for example, the twitter feed- and
anything not publicly endorsed by those sacred sources is not considered to be
"the true Anonymous".

Again, yes, I see the irony in that.

~~~
yters
Indeed. There are no leaderless, emergent movements. All modern seemingly
complete democracies merely have a shadow government.

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Joakal
Interesting that they would cancel when many other de-centralised
organisations would be pretty resilient. In fact, losing a member to the enemy
would cause an outcry and drive more to join the cause.

eg Taliban, Al Qaeda, IRA, guerrillas, and more.

Whoever cancelled the operation just confirmed to the adversaries that they're
easy to squash and immediately put the cause at risk. Adversaries are now more
confident to risk further resources if it means they can destroy the cause.

They chose unwisely.

~~~
sliverstorm
Anonymous is not a paramilitary group. I doubt their members are willing to
put their life on the line for the cause.

Decentralized paramilitary groups are hard to fight because you can track down
& kill members without hurting the group- not because you cannot track down &
kill members.

~~~
AJ007
I would say that being involved in hacking that would result in your becoming
a felon, getting extradited, and/or going to jail for over 5 years qualifies
as putting your life on the line.

~~~
sliverstorm
"Men with guns will come and arrest you because you broke esoteric law" seems
very surreal and a lot less intimidating than "Men with guns will come and
kill you because you pissed them off".

Don't forget the part where the Zetas have set a very, very strong precedent,
while the FBI haven't. I can say even for myself I would take the FBI over the
Zetas _any_ day of the week.

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djmdjm
The lulz stop when people start getting killed.

~~~
stfu
Sadly Anons are less and less about lulz these days. Too much white-knight'ing
going on there.

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rdl
I wish I could buy a letter of marque and reprisal from the us government to
interact with Los Zetas.

~~~
epicureanideal
Maybe you can buy one from Mexico?

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MichaelApproved
I applaud their desire to try and fight the cartel but its extremely dangerous
and don't fault them for pulling back.

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jberryman
Just look at the photo at the top of the article of policemen with automatic
rifle _wearing masks to protect their identities_. That is some terrifying
stuff.

~~~
anamax
> Just look at the photo at the top of the article of policemen with automatic
> rifle wearing masks to protect their identities.

FWIW, US swat police seem to do the same thing.

~~~
Super_Jambo
If you really want to get into it UK riot police seem to do the same thing.

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The_Sponge
There's so many ways to analyze this and so many possible ulterior motives.
It's also unfortunate that their anonymity is under threat, even if they don't
release the info they are still in danger.

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rbanffy
I don't think the Zetas will cease hostilities just because of that. Their
best chance is to flee to the US and ask for asylum. With the data.

Simply releasing the data would make killing them pointless, but being
pointless never stopped the Zetas before.

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BCounsell
Instead of the Government tracking down anon. Just let the Zeta's do it for
them(CIA style). Anyone vindictive enough could fake being anon. Now we just
have to convince the Zeta's that Al Qaeda is going to bring the heat down on
them.

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dylangs1030
The trouble with movements like Anonymous is that there is no centralized
authority. Further, a group pushing for anarchy is either hypocritical if it's
effective (because it will be organized) or ineffective because it's
anarchical and disorganized.

Anonymous is not a serious threat to large corporations. It may cost them a
minor inconveniencr, but without centralized authority, the group has no real
internal integrity (the question of whether or not a group claiming to work
under the auspices of Anonymous is moot...because anyone can be Anonymous).

~~~
mojotoad
What does anonymity have to do with anarchy? I realize that they often go hand
in hand, but that's a sad generalization.

~~~
dylangs1030
I was just following a train of thought and making a comparison, not a real
correlative relationship.

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tokenadult
This whole affair is a good test of the adage that the pen is mightier than
the sword. Is the submachine gun mightier than the modem?

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fallous
Speaking truth to powe....what? Oh yes, well then nevermind!

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malkia
Maybe it's time to legalize drugs.

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drivebyacct2
If only there was an easy way to take away much of many cartels' power that
has been endorsed by a dozen current and former leaders of several countries.

~~~
yters
Surely Anonymous, or a more skilled hacker group could do this. To hit the
cartel where it hurts they must hit their money supply. Instead of publishing
members, track the money and reveal where it's coming from and where it's
going to. With an annual income of $1B there has got to be something sizable
to be tracked.

~~~
drivebyacct2
Sorry, that was (I thought thinnly) veiled sarcasm.

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shareme
title is miss-leading, Mexico arm of anonymous has pulled back..however UK arm
is going ahead with the Nov 5th plans

~~~
elliottcarlson
Source please?

