
MSN Messenger to end after 15 years - mkaziz
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-28987797
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userbinator
...and another relatively straightforward and open protocol is finally
completely replaced with a heavily obfuscated proprietary one. I've worked
with MSNP including writing a working client for it, and it was quite easy to
do; it's mostly text-based:

[http://www.hypothetic.org/docs/msn/sitev2.0/notification/exa...](http://www.hypothetic.org/docs/msn/sitev2.0/notification/example_session.php)

As it evolved, MS made it more complex by changing many commands to be
dependent on XML and SOAP, but 3rd-party clients could still reverse-engineer
and keep up. There's been talk and some action on open-source Skype-protocol
clients but I haven't seen anything concrete materialise - maybe if all MSNP
servers shut down, the Chinese will up their action on Skype.

The interesting thing is that MSNP8 as of now is still functional (and I'm
outside of China) - the servers are still up and presence/messaging works.
Probably not for much longer though, sad to see it go.

~~~
scrollaway
MSNP may be "straightforward", but it's definitely not open and it is a
horrible protocol.

At least Skype is "the devil you know". Skype would have to be reverse-
engineered regardless, so at least now you no longer have to worry about MSNP.

Anything that doesn't get replaced by XMPP or an equivalently good and open
protocol is pretty meh regardless.

~~~
userbinator
How is MSNP "horrible", specifically? You've worked with it?

The main difference I see between MSNP and Skype is that much of MSNP could be
figured out in a day just by sniffing packets, which is probably what lead to
a proliferation of alternative clients and client libraries for it. The
(deliberate?) complexity of Skype means that RE attempts are more difficult,
so there are fewer people with the skills and inclination to do it. Hopefully
there will be more focus on it now, but it's still a _huge_ effort in
comparison.

Personally, I'm not too fond of XMPP either; something more similar to IRC
would be my preference. But all of that doesn't matter when almost everyone
you know used/uses MSNP/Skype, and from experience it's _very_ difficult to
change that, so any progress toward an open-source Skype client will be great.

~~~
scrollaway
> How is MSNP "horrible", specifically? You've worked with it?

Yes. I'm sure you know yourself: It's very ugly at the low level, it barely
supports the minimum feature set to call it an "instant messaging protocol",
and let's please not forget that is is a closed, proprietary protocol
regardless of how readable it is on the wire. Microsoft has full control over
it and can decide at any moment to... well, for example, shut it down.

Not saying skype is _better_ , just glad to see crappy proprietary tech die
out.

~~~
zo1
"Microsoft has full control over it and can decide at any moment to... well,
for example, shut it down."

Not if people decide to write their own server software for it. i.e. Something
that you most certainly can't do easily with Skype as it's leaps and bounds
more complicated to reverse-engineer.

" _Not saying skype is better, just glad to see crappy proprietary tech die
out._ " What? Let me rephrase how I re-read your sentence: "Not saying skype
is better, just glad to see crappy proprietary tech get replaced by even less
open and more difficult to reverse-engineer tech."

Why would you be glad about that? You're contradicting your own viewpoint
about how bad "proprietary tech" is by advocating it's replacement by an even
more " _proprietary_ tech"

~~~
scrollaway
I'm not advocating anything else than XMPP; I'm just being practical. MSNP is
one less proprietary protocol to worry about.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Well from the practical perspective what happens is what zo1 wrote: "crappy
proprietary tech get replaced by even less open and more difficult to reverse-
engineer tech". What's more likely - former MSN users switching to XMPP or to
Skype?

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kmfrk
The day Messenger died for me was when all my friends moved to Facebook
instead.

The halcyon days where IM was somewhat private.

Shame they took so long to bring it to mobile devices, too.

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51Cards
Microsoft also recently killed off SkypeKit which allowed 3rd party
applications to interact (text/voice) with the Skype platform on Windows. They
are saying as it wasn't cross platform it wasn't a good solution however it
has crippled Trillian (and others) which I used daily for Skype.

Since I find the actual Skype client to be one of the worst pieces of software
ever written I've started introducing everyone to GTalk/Hangouts and so far
most are changing over.

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RyJones
I worked on a few features in MSN Messenger, and I'm sad to see it pass, but
the time had come. I hadn't logged in to use it for almost five years when it
was shut off in the US.

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drdeadringer
Though primarily an AOLIM and Yahoo Messenger user back then, I remember when
MSN Messenger’s "British phase-out" occurred around 10 years ago [~2004?]. I
had a couple folks from the UK in my list, and we had to go over how else to
chat [AOLIM, Yahoo].

I ended up phasing myself off MSN Messenger not too long after. Still a "place
in my heart" type situation.

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zanny
There are several people I do not have contact info for that I have fleetingly
seen on my MSM account in KTP in the last year. It will be a shame if they
shut off their XMPP servers, because then I have no way to reach them.

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Kompulsa
I appreciated the ability to have a messenger running on the computer which
would always notify me of new messages, instead of having a Facebook tab open
in the web browser.

~~~
icebraining
Facebook chat is just XMPP, you can use desktop clients to receive messages.
Facebook themselves recommend Pidgin and Adium:
[https://www.facebook.com/sitetour/chat.php](https://www.facebook.com/sitetour/chat.php)

~~~
luuio
no group chat.

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thejosh
>MSN Messenger is survived by Facebook, MySpace, Twitter, Snapchat, Skype,
Google+ and Instagram.

Apart from none of those are actually chat programs, except for Facebook Chat.

~~~
Macuyiko
And Google+'s Hangouts. And Skype's IMs. And tweeting to each other can also
be seen as chatting.

I'd say the biggest chance is the fact that all of them are web-centric or
mobile-centric.

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guard-of-terra
It is also survived by ICQ which it tried to MS-overtake.

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abmussani
Bye Bye MSN... no more nudge :(

