
Apple kills a Kickstarter project - lambtron
http://venturebeat.com/2012/12/20/apple-kills-a-kickstarter-project-portable-power-project-pop-refunding-139170-to-backers
======
readme
This is why I don't understand why so many hackers these days like to use
apple products.

Apple is the antithesis of the hacker ideal. They're just as bad as Microsoft.

I mean, seriously. Have you ever been to a radioshack? Multi-charging devices
are a common product. Yet apple will have none of it. It's clearly an anti-
competitive measure aimed at making sure they're your only supplier.

Furthermore, apple's chargers suck. They deliberately have a weaker rubber
sleeve around the end of laptop charger cables because it looks aesthetically
nice. It's been proven that it's weaker than the conventional rubber joints on
most laptop chargers, but they don't change it, because they value aesthetics
over functionality.

Avoid if possible.

/me realizes he's using an ipod shuffle. oh well.

~~~
eropple
_This is why I don't understand why so many hackers these days like to use
apple products._

 _Avoid if possible._

That's the thing. I can't. Because I want a computer I don't hate. There's
nobody else who makes a machine I want to spend 8+ hours a day working and
playing on.

There are some PC manufacturers where I can get some of what I want, but I've
yet to see one where I can get all of it--I like Lenovo's build quality and
aesthetic, for example, but their laptops are universally underspecced for
what I want (if your only GPU is Intel, you are not getting my money) and I
can't get a Retina display, which I now consider _mandatory_ , anywhere else.
And, while we're at it, if you're significantly heavier than my rMBP and don't
provide at least competitive battery life, you're out too. I carry around
enough crap as it is.

Worse, there are _no_ operating systems other than OS X that fulfill my needs
of a pleasant-to-use Unix/Linux system--certainly no Linux distribution comes
close on the "pleasant-to-use" part; I'd rather use Windows 7 and Cygwin than
any Linux desktop I've been subjected to in the last five years.

For me it's the same as it was with iOS--until Android 4.0 there was simply no
worthy competition to iOS as far as I was concerned, but 4.x is fantastic and
I switched over because it gave me the environment I don't hate _plus_ the
ability to mess around and customize it to my liking. But the first part is
more important. If there was a Linux distribution with Apple levels of
attention to detail and a modicum of taste--and that doesn't mean "looks like
OS X", something different could be fine so long as it was designed for human
beings instead of neckbeards and was uncompromising in its attention to detail
--I'd probably be there. There isn't (and very well may never be), so I'm not.

~~~
w1ntermute
> Worse, there are no operating systems other than OS X that fulfill my needs
> of a pleasant-to-use Unix/Linux system--certainly no Linux distribution
> comes close on the "pleasant-to-use" part; I'd rather use Windows 7 and
> Cygwin than any Linux desktop I've been subjected to in the last five years.

Sounds to me like this is just a matter of what you're used to. From my
experience, OS X's UI is the last thing anyone would _want_ if they weren't
used to it. The window management is pretty damn horrible. OTOH, Linux has a
variety of window managers with many innovative paradigms.

> I like Lenovo's build quality and aesthetic, for example, but their laptops
> are universally underspecced for what I want (if your only GPU is Intel, you
> are not getting my money) and I can't get a Retina display, which I now
> consider mandatory, anywhere else.

I don't know what you're doing with your machine that makes Lenovo machines
underspecced, but for web and Android development, the ThinkPad X1 Carbon fits
the bill. I wrote about it here: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4848375>

If you want discrete graphics, that is available in other models, such as the
T series, IIRC. However, for anything other than gaming or video editing,
integrated graphics really is enough. I personally prefer not having discrete
graphics, as it keeps me from playing games.

The only thing missing is retina support, but you have the advantage of a
lighter and thinner laptop than the MBP. It's no different from the MBA in
that respect, with the added advantage of a 14" screen in the same body size
as the 13" Air.

~~~
eropple
_Sounds to me like this is just a matter of what you're used to. From my
experience, OS X's UI is the last thing anyone would want if they weren't used
to it. The window management is pretty damn horrible. OTOH, Linux has a
variety of window managers with many innovative paradigms._

Your experience does not match mine but thank you for trivializing mine by
assuming that it's just _what I'm used to_. Never mind that I come from a
Windows and Linux background, to OS X about three years ago, right?

I find the OS X window model appealing (though not without its warts) and its
gesture support fantastic. Mission Control maps far better to the way that I
think about multiple desktops than GNOME's or KDE's--and I compare to those
and not your "innovative window managers" because I've been there, I've done
that, and I have determined that they're not for me. I have been down the
tiling window manager road and I find it demanding of micromanagement; it does
not map to how I think or work and I have no interest in contorting to fit it.
Likewise, I have no interest in putting up with sharp bits and pointy edges in
Unity or GNOME 3 or KDE 4 (I've been there, too, and reject the T-shirt).

 _If you want discrete graphics, that is available in other models, such as
the T series, IIRC. However, for anything other than gaming or video editing,
integrated graphics really is enough._

The rMBP is not my only computer, but, yes, I want to be able to play games on
it when I'm traveling. The rMBP is really good at it (I generally just play
through Parallels, I don't bother to reboot). The T-series Lenovos are
massive, heavy, lack Retina displays, and aren't nearly as aesthetically
pleasing as the Carbon X1 is. Would never buy.

 _The only thing missing is retina support, but you have the advantage of a
lighter and thinner laptop than the MBP._

"Except for the most important thing, you get some of the things." Sure, I'm
being flip there, but it's not unserious: for my money, retina support is just
not optional anymore. People say they can't go back after using a retina
display because it's true. For me, the difference is _that_ stark. The 3x 21"
1080p panels on my desktop feel distractingly blurry and they make me
irritable to work on for long periods of time. (Most disappointing thing to me
is that the DisplayPort outputs on the rMBP can't output 4K, but 2560x1600
displays look okay when put far enough back on my desk.)

~~~
w1ntermute
> Never mind that I come from a Windows and Linux background, to OS X about
> three years ago, right?

I think that a lot of people are willing to put up with the transition _to_ OS
X because of the RDF and the iPod/iPhone halo effect, but the transition away
has no such phenomenon to motivate people to use a platform long enough to get
used to the differences. However, this is just a general observation.

> I have no interest in putting up with sharp bits and pointy edges in Unity
> or GNOME 3 or KDE 4

Meh, I find that the "sharp bits" are no more sharp than those in OS X. No
platform can be perfect for any given user, since we all have different
preferences. The closest you can get is with a highly-customizable tiling
window manager, but anything like OS X, Windows or KDE wouldn't work like
this.

> The T-series Lenovos are massive, heavy, lack Retina displays, and aren't
> nearly as aesthetically pleasing as the Carbon X1 is. Would never buy.

You clearly are not up-to-date on this. Have you seen the T430u? It weighs
less than the rMBP 15", has discrete graphics, and has similar aesthetic
stylings to the X1 Carbon. The optical drive has been omitted, for example.

> for my money, retina support is just not optional anymore

FWIW, I've found it to be half-baked when a lot of software and most websites
don't support it yet. Browsing the web on a retina display is rather jarring.
Moreover, when I regularly use external displays at my desk, switching back
and forth would be quite jarring as well.

~~~
Bogdanp
> Browsing the web on a retina display is rather jarring.

I would like to preface this by saying that I couldn't give a rat's ass about
the rest of the arguments but in this case I just have to chime in since the
quoted bit is just bullshit. The only difference between browsing the web on a
retina display and browsing it on a normal screen is that, on a retina
display, the font rendering is a million times better. That's it. But that is
enough to make me not want to look at any other type of display again.

It is true that some applications do not have retina support (I'm looking at
you, Firefox) but that support will come with time and all of the applications
that I use on a daily basis look great.

~~~
mitchty
Firefox 18 beta supports retina finally. Think its January release date or so.

Also 1000% this, high dpi, retina, whatever you want to call it rendering is
so much better than non I've asked my bosses if I can buy a macbook pro to use
for work. I work with text all day, this screen is so markedly better for text
its not funny. Jarring? Not in the least, Jarring is using other displays
after this.

Call me a fanboy if you want, but when my eyes don't fatigue from extended
reading sessions, I think I'll take the fanboy label.

------
nostromo
Why didn't they didn't just include a female usb port?

Edit: I'm skeptical about their motive. It seems they are using this as a
press event to announce their KickStarter competitor ChristieStreet.

~~~
kunil
I thought you can't charge apple devices with different usb devices? I have an
apple tablet at my work and my pc does not charge it, I have to use my
friend's mac.

~~~
lloeki
Per spec USB2 output max 500mA per port. This is enough to charge an iPad when
it's asleep, but as soon as the screen is on it will stop charging to power
itself.

The wall charger and Macs include a non-standard trick (a resistor on the data
pins in the wall charger, probably some active negotiation on Macs) to output
up to two full amps.

Higher charge rates are part of the USB3 spec, but this would require both
devices to implement it, and I don't know if it's even a mandatory part of the
spec.

So, plug your iPad on a PC and it will charge, just slower, and only when
sleeping.

------
jsiminoff
Just want to add some points to this thread as I am the inventor of POP.

For those who question our motives, your reasoning is fair but let me clarify
some things.

We started Christie Street because of our our experiences with POP. We have
been getting closer and closer to this decision since Apple announced
Lightning and began its new rules on the adapter. While we were going back and
forth and waiting to see if we could still build POP we realized that we did
not have a good way of refunding to our customers. That is why on Christie
Street we built a automated refund system for our inventors. So when we
finally realized that POP just could not be made to what we promised, we
wanted to use our platform to do the refunds as it would be easier for us to
manage. Also it would allow us to test and tweak the system with real
customers. We are all trying to build better companies/products and looking at
a loss on POP this seemed like a good way to at least salvage something out of
it while delivering a above average experience to our customers, I would call
that a win-win.

Lots of people also seem to want POP even without Lightning and our upset that
we did not poll our customers to see if a USB only version. But they are
missing the point, we said in our campaign that we would support the iPhone 5
and at the time had no reason to believe that would be impossible. Why would
we have thought that they would sell the new adapter any different then the
old 30 pin?

We are not willing to compromise on the product or deliver something that was
not as promised. If that brings skeptics, so be it but at the end of the day
today I know that we are doing the right thing, not the easy thing but the
right thing.

~~~
julien_p
> Why would we have thought that they would sell the new adapter any different
> then the old 30 pin?

Before the new connector was announced there were rumours that licensing for
it would be more restrictive. Also notice how you can't license MagSafe at
all.

I'm not saying Apple's decision is the right one, but IMHO it was clear there
was a risk regarding licensing.

------
mullingitover
This would've been a better product if it just had a general-purpose
retraction mechanism and let you bring your own cables. Apple may have been
jerks, but they could've designed around it and made a better product instead
of just throwing up their hands.

------
tibbon
Wasn't there an EU ruling a few years ago saying that cell phones needed to
start using micro-usb connectors? How is Apple getting around that, and still
selling phones in the EU with proprietary plugs?

~~~
blazingice
They released an adapter:

[http://store.apple.com/uk/product/MD099ZM/A/apple-iphone-
mic...](http://store.apple.com/uk/product/MD099ZM/A/apple-iphone-micro-usb-
adapter?mco=MjU5MjAwODM)

Apparently these are quite difficult to buy in the United States.

Edit: Lightning to Micro-USB is only $20, though:
[http://store.apple.com/us/product/MD820ZM/A/lightning-to-
mic...](http://store.apple.com/us/product/MD820ZM/A/lightning-to-micro-usb-
adapter)

~~~
devb
Only $20? Are there even any voltage modifiers in it, or is it just a pin to
pin mapper?

~~~
jws
They are active devices.

~~~
josteink
Because Apple added DRM to the interface. They are active because Apple made
that a requirement.

People should stop being apologetic about the _bullshit_ like this which Apple
is doing all the time, in small dosages here and there.

If you keep taking this, there soon wont be any open, general purpose
computing-platforms left.

~~~
jws
You are misinformed. There may or may not be DRM according to the teardowns.
There is certainly a bit of silicon which has a minimal DRM capability, but it
may have come along for the ride. If there is DRM, it is not enforced. There
are knockoff connectors out there.

The connector electronics are there to allow higher current charging by
allocating more pins to power transfer when they are not needed for data and
to allow as yet undeveloped higher speed protocols to operate on the same
connector.

If there is DRM I can see Apple's point. When you destroy an iPhone with a
cheap charger that fails, it costs Apple money to replace it. If you attempt
to reverse engineer the connector, you will be wrong. The future capabilities
are not present for observation. You will probably create a device that
behaves improperly for future protocols. Will you destroy that future device
by pulling -5V on a low voltage differential data line?

------
publicfig
I really fail to see how opening the options to which plugs would be supported
by just offering a USB Type-A adapter and providing some cables or having the
user supply their own is "compromising" their product, unless it makes them
too similar to products that are already on the market and have been for a
while. I think this is more a failure of execution than it is Apple "killing"
the project.

~~~
jlgreco
It is an issue of not being able to provide the product that people have given
their money for.

If I were in their position, and my priority was operating ethically not
successfully, I would refund all the money as they have done, then start
again, pitching an only USB product.

------
sftueni
Not quite convinced by the argument that 'Apple killed' it. IMHO it's always
dangerous to go for one plug design; given how those plugs evolved over time
(Think USB, micro USB, mini USB for Android, etc.). I quickly amassed in my
drawer a plethora of unusable chargers. Only the Apple port had the longest
lifetime across multiple devices. I would say, the kickstarter idea could use
it as an opportunity to redesign an initial flaw of - an otherwise nice
charging station ?

~~~
JohnTHaller
They can't. The point of it was to be a charging station that could charge
everything. Apple's updated more-anti-competitive license changes make this
impossible by forbidding anything from having a lightning connector in
conjunction with any other connector. It's basically Apple forcing 3rd parties
to make docks, speakers, etc that ONLY work with new Apple products and won't
support anything else.

~~~
joeyo
They could have simply provided a standard USB-A port. Trying to put all
possible connectors on the thing sounds like a fools errand, regardless of
Apple's stance.

~~~
firloop
If you look on their kickstarter page, they actually did provide USB-A ports
on the bottom of the unit. They just weren't able to 'compromise their
product', which makes me believe that perhaps they had other underlying
issues, unrelated to Apple's licensing.

~~~
JohnTHaller
They said the product was going to do lightning and they found out they
couldn't actually do that. I think that would qualify as false advertising.

------
beggi
Regardless of this particular issue, can anybody explain Apple's stance on
this? Why are they forbidding Lightning connectors on products alongside other
types of connectors?

~~~
marshray
Although the simple explanation is "Apple is greedy and wants to milk their
users with overpriced charging cords" I think the real explanation is more
complex.

Apple wants to control every aspect of how its users experience the products
that they think of as "Apple". When Apple sells a charger and charging cord,
they want it to be a charging experience worthy of the Apple name. I know it
sounds ridiculous, but this is how they think.

Every consumer eventually ends up with a big tangle of chargers and adapters.
The kind of thing where you unplug it and tug on the cord and the FCC-mandated
RF balun is a big lump and the cord gets stuck and you have to crawl under
your desk to retrieve it. Most of us live with that kind of thing every day
and most normal people _hate_ it.

In short, Apple wants its users to experience its products as a refreshingly
simple and clean salvation from modern electronic hell. The existence of a
single cable that mixes the new connector with the old connector is seen to
tarnish that user experience.

~~~
gst
All the other things except iPhones almost universally charge via MicroUSB
now. It's hard to end upwith a "big tangle of chargers and adapters" when all
you need is a MicroUSB cable.

~~~
marshray
I'm not defending Apple's position here, just trying to imagine how they
think.

I love MicroUSB. (In fact, I got a tip that Santa Claus will be bringing
everyone in my family MicroUSB cables for Christmas! Shh!) But somehow I still
have a big tangle of cables (USB and others) on my desk. Admittedly, none of
them are Apple.

------
andrewfelix
I'm speculating here. But other than the ChristieStreet motives people are
throwing around, it might also have been prohibitively expensive to get a
26,000Mha battery into the device at that price point.

~~~
marcosdumay
26,000mAh

Please, those letters have meaning. You can't just replace them at will.

~~~
marshray
26 Ah

Edit: Note that this figure is meaningless for discussing energy storage
capacity without also specifying a voltage.

~~~
veemjeem
I think voltage is assumed to be 3.7v, the voltage practically all phones use
in their batteries.

------
jinushaun
Sucks for them, but can't they make the thing a USB hub? BYOC. Who do I need
their cable? USB-A ports are more practical. If I have an Android, why would I
want iPhone chargers?

~~~
OriginalSyn
Maybe you have friends, family or loved ones that use iphones that may be at
your home that want to charge their phones? No. Then this product isn't for
you. I personally am in love with a woman that comes from a family of mac
users, perhaps you can understand my dismay when I stayed at her brother's
house for two days and he didn't have a single MicroUSB cable and he's a tech
geek/developer with 3 computers (MBP, Mac Pro and Mac Air), 2 tablets (Ipad 1
& 2) and 2 (i)phones. I've never expected that someone could have so many tech
devices and not have a billion usb cables like most of my tech friends do.

Then there is the fact that I'm competing with my old lady for plugins for our
phone cables. We live in an extremely old house and the amount of plugins are
limited as is the amount they can be extended.

------
tonetheman
It was a good idea I think, just apple being apple.

Daring Fireball will spin it so that Apple looks great or write a poetic post
on how Lightening connectors will solve world hunger.

~~~
MBCook
It's not a bad idea, I can see how it would be very useful for some people.

The thing I'm having a problem with is they must have seen this coming.
Everyone knows Apple is a control freak. This was entirely foreseeable, and
getting the requirements from Apple shouldn't have been due diligence. At a
minimum, they should have planned for this possibility from the get-go.

------
fpgeek
I found this quote from the project's letter about the situation impressive:

"Providing full refunds means we will have to absorb a hit for both credit
card (3%) and Kickstarter fees (5%) totaling over $11,000. Today we asked
Kickstarter for the 5% fee they collected based on the circumstances, however
regardless of their decision YOU WILL RECEIVE 100% OF YOUR MONEY BACK."

I'm sure plenty of people wouldn't have had a problem if they'd passed along
the various fees. After all, Kickstarters are still speculative projects that
can fail even after funding. Eating whatever fees they can't get refunded is
seriously going above and beyond to make things right for their backers in a
difficult situation.

------
monochromatic
What does it even mean for Apple to license this connector? Do they have a
patent on it? It's just a fucking plug. Or are they just refusing to let these
folks use some trademark to mark their product?

~~~
josteink
_What does it even mean for Apple to license this connector?_

Apple built DRM into it. You cannot work with it without Apple giving you the
keys first.

Yes. Apple managed to sell the iFanboys a proprietary, DRMed USB-connector and
make them believe they were getting something better than everyone else.

If that make Apple geniuses or Apple's customers retardec is your call.

------
lytfyre
Interestingly, the idapt dock I use seems to be have a lightning compatible
tip.[1] Wonder how they pulled it off.

[1]
[http://www.idaptweb.com/interchangeable_tips/charger/tp/ligh...](http://www.idaptweb.com/interchangeable_tips/charger/tp/lightning/)

~~~
veemjeem
Apple has a program called MFi, usually you're supposed to get a MFi license
if you make hardware for the ipod/iphone family. Since idapt doesn't list MFi
anywhere, I'm guessing that they don't license it, and they aren't popular
enough for Apple to sue yet. You don't have to ask Apple if you're just going
to violate the license anyway... as long as you're small, Apple probably won't
care. I think these guys tried to do the "right" thing.

I'm sure there are a few dozen chinese companies that violate all kinds of
licenses that nobody really cares about. There's this chinese company that
makes an iPhone knockoff that is actually called "iPhone" -- saw on the
streets of Hong Kong. How do you think they do it?

------
mrchess
When life gives you lemons make lemonade.

    
    
        1. Apple rejected the cable. To those who say "just go USB", it was
           supposed to be a seamless product and that destroys aesthetics. 
           Image is everything in product design.
     
        2. In parallel they were working on Christie Street, to solve the 
           issue of non-refunds on Kickstarter.
    
        3. So why not turn something bad into something good? Get some press 
           for their new site, and also issue refunds for everyone. How else 
           would they issue refunds? And how does anyone lose in this situation? 
    

If anything, this seems like a great and fair way to deal with the issues at
hand.

------
JoshTriplett
Why not just continue the project with a few other connector types, and
separately make an adapter for Apple's connector (authorized or otherwise), or
recommend an existing something-to-Apple-connector cable?

------
hamey
Something seems off about this whole thing.

------
ghostnappa
So I'm looking at my monoprice external battery pack. It says specifically
that it works for iPod,iPhone, and iPad. Is the problem that they built in the
cables into the device instead of just outputting to a usb hub with
specifically defined output rates?

------
gregcohn
I applaud Jamie and the POP team for going for it -- everyone who develops on
a proprietary platform like Apple's (apps, hardware, whatever) faces this
risk. It's a risk you have to take if you want a shot at success.

Sometimes it doesn't work out.

------
olgeni
> "Apple would not approve"

To think that in 2012 we still have to worry about things like this...

------
slajax
Nothing like calling Apple a bunch of a-holes in the press to make you look
super professional. Siminoff sounds like a whiny baby who got mad and flipped
the risk board. At least all the backers are getting their money back.

~~~
JimmaDaRustla
I don't blame him for dealing with his grief. He has a right to be completely
"pissed", and he has to be very emotional because he cared so much for this
project, he worked so hard...and he probably had some passion for Apple...and
then this life changing opportunity is denied by the "totalitarian" Apple.

Edit: It's like salt in a would...made of salt.

------
joering2
all the way on the bottom:

 _Apple designs Macs, the best personal computers in the world, along with OS
X, iLife, iWork and professional software. [...]_

oh, irony!

