
High-skill green cards get lame-duck push in Congress - clarkm
http://www.mercurynews.com/politics-government/ci_22054338/high-skill-green-cards-get-lame-duck-push
======
zizee
It always annoys me that business groups are constantly lobbying for increased
immigration because of a "lack of supply" of skilled labour. When there is an
imbalance in supply and demand with labour we should see an increase in the
incomes of those people with the skills in shortage. Instead business groups
want to cheat the system and increase supply, not by paying workers more, but
instead trying to import more labour, screwing the workers out of their good
fortune of being on the right side of the supply and demand equation for a
change.

~~~
timmclean
I don't see how this would be "cheating the system". There are skilled workers
out there that can't receive the income they deserve simply because of their
location. Locking out foreign workers is basically geographical discrimination
-- and discrimination is economically inefficient. We'd all be better off if
everyone could just receive a fair market salary: no more, no less.

~~~
yourapostasy
What you propose is feasible when labor flows as freely as capital across
borders. It takes less paperwork and time to set up a bank account in a
foreign bank and deposit funds into it than it does to start working in the
same domicile as the foreign bank (unless one is talking about special cases
like intra-EU or intra-NAFTA, and even intra-NAFTA is no picnic). If you have
$0.5-1M or more to set up shop, it takes less paperwork and time to start a
new business in a foreign domicile than it does to move your labor to the same
domicile without the same level of capital (and in many locales, that level of
capital garners you a PR card at the same time). At the moment there is
asymmetric discrimination against labor mobility, and these calls for
increased immigration-with-strings quotas from capital represent an even
greater imbalance, hence where I suspect the "cheating the system" sentiment
comes from. Cut _all_ the strings, and your fair market value would tend to
emerge.

------
cletus
Immigration policy in the US is ridiculous.

Why is this particular bill aimed at people with advanced degrees only? The
majority of software engineers only have undergrad degrees and don't really
need anything more than that. This is my case and I'm up for a wait of
probably 3-4 years for an employer sponsored green card.

The green card lottery is an odd beast and frankly I think is my best bet of
getting a green card (coming from a relatively low lottery program participant
country of Australia).

In these issues someone always raises the "what about domestic workers?"
argument, which takes one of two forms:

1\. Immigrant workers are taking jobs that domestic workers could do or could
be trained to do; and

2\. The increase in supply is dampening the earning potential of those in the
field.

(2) might well be true but this isn't a bad thing. Doctors in some countries
are scarce because the de facto doctor's "union" seeks to constrain supply,
raising the cost of health care. For example, by restricting the number of
university places in medicine.

Or, in Australia, runaway capital projects have raised the cost of
construction to absurdly high levels, particularly in Western Australia, such
that you really can't build a house for less than $300,000 anymore. Higher
construction costs raise the cost of everything. This (IMHO) could ultimately
paralyze the economy.

As for (1), speaking just about software engineers, there is a worldwide
shortage of competent software engineers. There are (IMHO) at least 10 times
as many masquerading as software engineers. I am shocked when I see candidates
with 10 years of experience who can't write a for loop in the language of
their choice on a whiteboard.

Given a worldwide shortage, it's better to have as many of them as possible.

As for entrepreneurs, frankly I think states should have the right to collect
a special tax (in addition to other taxes) for anyone who wants to come to the
US and start their business. That tax is to cover infrastructure and
government services that person uses. Let them stay on that as long as they're
willing to pay and until such time as they can shift to an immigration
category based on the size of their business (these categories already exist).

Also, let the spouses of H1B holders have a job. I'm an Australian and on an
E3 visa (specifically for Australian professionals). One advantage of this is
the E3D (spouse visa for an E3 holder) allows that spouse to work. Just FYI.

~~~
eshvk
> Immigration policy in the US is ridiculous. Why is this particular bill
> aimed at people with advanced degrees only? The majority of software
> engineers only have undergrad degrees and don't really need anything more
> than that. This is my case and I'm up for a wait of probably 3-4 years for
> an employer sponsored green card.

Do you realize how easy it is to get an undergrad degree in Asia? A vast
majority of undergrad degrees there are a joke. What are we going to do? Use
Fizz Buzz to evaluate who is qualified to get a green card? I sympathize with
you but the problem is that "advanced degrees" is essentially code word for
has a degree from a U.S. university which I suspect they want.

> The green card lottery is an odd beast and frankly I think is my best bet of
> getting a green card (coming from a relatively low lottery program
> participant country of Australia).

Agreed. If the employment based green card was my only option, I am fairly
certain I would emigrate to Canada or some other destination rather than spend
10+ years tied to an employer waiting for a Green Card.

> 2) might well be true but this isn't a bad thing. Doctors in some countries
> are scarce because the de facto doctor's "union" seeks to constrain supply,
> raising the cost of health care. For example, by restricting the number of
> university places in medicine.

> As for (1), speaking just about software engineers, there is a worldwide
> shortage of competent software engineers. There are (IMHO) at least 10 times
> as many masquerading as software engineers. I am shocked when I see
> candidates with 10 years of experience who can't write a for loop in the
> language of their choice on a whiteboard.

I kind of agree with you but good luck getting a politician who is beholden to
U.S. voters to agree to that. There are already rants about "immigrants
stealing jobs" and depressing wages. Free market economics is not highly
encouraged around these parts.

> Also, let the spouses of H1B holders have a job. I'm an Australian and on an
> E3 visa (specifically for Australian professionals). One advantage of this
> is the E3D (spouse visa for an E3 holder) allows that spouse to work. Just
> FYI.

Again, there is a reason that doesn't exist. It is hackable: One person comes
in through an H1B and another person gets through the system and "steals a job
from a deserving American". Also, how do you handle the situation where the
H1B is technically tied to one employer and another employer is somehow
gaining by being able to hire their spouse? I suspect the reason it exists for
Australians is the low numbers of Australians coming which means the system
has been hacked (yet).

~~~
notimetorelax
Please don't use such words as hackable when discussing immigration policies,
and please try to look at the situation from the perspective of an immigrant.

I have experienced it on me and know what it's like when your wife cannot
work, it's fucked up... If you're an american living in US then you will not
understand how difficult it can be for the wife and husband. Look at it from
another perspective: if family members are allowed to work then they 1. learn
the language 2. better integrate into society 3. grow their career 4. become
useful for the economy. You should also consider that wife is not husband's
property (also true for the reverse case). If she's not allowed to work than
she becomes overly dependent on the husband.

I mean com'on I'm so tired of this high-level discussions on immigration,
these are people's lives you're talking about. Would you like to lose 5-10
year of your twenties, thirties only to obtain better visa? Would you like to
be in the position when you're in a foreign country for multiple years and you
cannot break up with your spouse only because of the visa, unless you're
willing to go back to your "home" country that is not home to you anymore?

EDIT: My point is, if you let person into your country don't put additional
barriers. If it's a family you're talking about then benchmark all the family
members and then decided whether to let them in or not, don't create second
class citizens.

~~~
eshvk
> Please don't use such words as hackable when discussing immigration
> policies, and please try to look at the situation from the perspective of an
> immigrant.

I _am_ an immigrant on a visa, so yeah I do know both sides of the coin. The
term "hackable" was used from the perspective of how USCIS looks at this.

> I have experienced it on me and know what it's like when your wife cannot
> work, it's fucked up... If you're an american living in US then you will not
> understand how difficult it can be for the wife and husband. Look at it from
> another perspective: if family members are allowed to work then they 1.
> learn the language 2. better integrate into society 3. grow their career 4.
> become useful for the economy. You should also consider that wife is not
> husband's property (also true for the reverse case). If she's not allowed to
> work than she becomes overly dependent on the husband.

I am sure you may have had bad experiences and there is no doubt that the
situation can be hard. Let me offer a counter perspective: I know several
immigrants who come here on H1B visas with their wives on H4 visas. From what
I understand, they have two options currently :

1\. Getting an F1 visa, going to school and then getting a job.

2\. Getting a company to sponsor the person for an H1B and then switching from
H4 to H1B.

Both of these situations are hard, no doubt but not impossible. I personally
know people who have done them. Yes, they are limited to people who have the
money to go to school or the skillset to get a job as an H1B.

> I mean com'on I'm so tired of this high-level discussions on immigration,
> these are people's lives you're talking about. Would you like to lose 5-10
> year of your twenties, thirties only to obtain better visa? Would you like
> to be in the position when you're in a foreign country for multiple years
> and you cannot break up with your spouse only because of the visa, unless
> you're willing to go back to your "home" country that is not home to you
> anymore?

I personally will somewhere else if I had to wait that long. I refuse to
believe that my situation (Or that of any high skilled immigrant who gets paid
well and lives a regular middle class life) is worse than the countless
undocumented immigrants who get exploited for decades and live under the fear
of deportation. I am not trying to create a false dichotomy here but consider
this from the perspective of the people who make legislation: Why are highly
skilled immigrants supposed to be first in line compared to any one else who
comes in?

> EDIT: My point is, if you let person into your country don't put additional
> barriers. If it's a family you're talking about then benchmark all the
> family members and then decided whether to let them in or not, don't create
> second class citizens.

I don't disagree with you in general. However, my comments were strictly from
a policy perspective: The purpose of the H1B is to let people in so that they
can temporarily fill a need for highly skilled labor. The rules associated
with that visa are what they are.

~~~
notimetorelax
Sure there are always workarounds and in the end spouse can always look for
someone to sponsor application for working visa, but good luck with getting it
if you had no or little experience. Going back to school doesn't really solve
the problem of spouse being attached to the main visa holder (AFAIK education
in US can be quite expensive).

What I dislike the most about H1B visa is that it is almost the only way to
start working in the US which as you said aimed to temporarily fill a need for
highly skilled labor. So what are the alternatives? I would be totally OK with
H1B if it was limited to say 2 years with absolutely no possibility to extend
it, people would not be lured to the USA with false promises of future
improvement of their conditions. Last time I checked it was possible to lose
H1B simply because of quota no matter how many years you've spend in the US,
it's wrong.

I would like to compare it to Swiss B permit. It is very hard to get one
especially because of quotas on the first time applicants, but once you have
it you don't have to worry anymore. To extend it all you need is to be
gainfully employed (you're not tied to your original employer). Process is
rather streamlined and after 6 years you receive C permit which is similar to
the green card. (disclaimer: some cantons are better some are worse, in Geneva
and Zurich for example they can issue L permit instead of B which is limited
to 2 years without notifying the applicant, basically you learn that you have
L when it's too late...)

I understand that you were playing devils advocate in the original comment and
I guess we agree on many points but there are many people that have never
experienced it and cannot understand all the hardships of living in a foreign
country with limited rights.

~~~
eshvk
> Sure there are always workarounds and in the end spouse can always look for
> someone to sponsor application for working visa, but good luck with getting
> it if you had no or little experience. Going back to school doesn't really
> solve the problem of spouse being attached to the main visa holder (AFAIK
> education in US can be quite expensive).

OK. Let me put it across in a different way then: Why should a person with no
or little experience be allowed to take a job which could potentially be used
by someone who is a citizen?

> What I dislike the most about H1B visa is that it is almost the only way to
> start working in the US which as you said aimed to temporarily fill a need
> for highly skilled labor. So what are the alternatives? I would be totally
> OK with H1B if it was limited to say 2 years with absolutely no possibility
> to extend it, people would not be lured to the USA with false promises of
> future improvement of their conditions. Last time I checked it was possible
> to lose H1B simply because of quota no matter how many years you've spend in
> the US, it's wrong.

So is your issue the time limitation itself or that time for which one can be
on an H1B is two years rather than five years.

> I would like to compare it to Swiss B permit. It is very hard to get one
> especially because of quotas on the first time applicants, but once you have
> it you don't have to worry anymore. To extend it all you need is to be
> gainfully employed (you're not tied to your original employer). Process is
> rather streamlined and after 6 years you receive C permit which is similar
> to the green card. (disclaimer: some cantons are better some are worse, in
> Geneva and Zurich for example they can issue L permit instead of B which is
> limited to 2 years without notifying the applicant, basically you learn that
> you have L when it's too late...)

I agree that a better system must exist: Of late, I have come to the
realization that the H1B is an evil system which is basically a form of white-
collar slavery. However, it is going to be hard to build a scalable, robust
system that benefits current citizens without exploiting future citizens.

~~~
notimetorelax
> OK. Let me put it across in a different way then: Why should a person with
> no or little experience be allowed to take a job which could potentially be
> used by someone who is a citizen?

How is this different from an American marrying a foreigner who then receives
green card and can work wherever? He/she may not have any experience and yet
will take over someone else's job. On one hand we have a person with expertise
that is in high demand on the other hand we have a citizen who just happened
to be born on the USA soil, why should we treat their families differently?
Especially that we have confirmed that the former is an asset to the economy.

~~~
eshvk
You are comparing apples and oranges: The reason a foreigner who marries an
American gets a green card is because it is considered to be a preliminary
step for the person who by virtue of marrying a U.S. citizen to acquire
citizenship. The second case is of someone who is temporarily in the United
States and whose family has an even more tenuous status.

Also, a citizen has additional rights and responsibilities: E.g. voting is a
right and a responsibility so is selective service. Economic productivity is
only part of the civic responsibility of a citizen.

~~~
notimetorelax
Is there another way for an experienced professional to get into the USA
without going through H1B? Again please correct me AFAIK the standard path to
citizenship is H1B then green card then citizenship. How many years should you
spend in the country before your status changes from temporary to something
else?

Anyway I respect your opinion and it certainly has merit, the only thing the I
want to say is that, as you say, to prevent white collar slavery immigrants
must be allowed higher mobility and their spouses independence.

------
rdl
There is very little chance of this passing the Senate or President, since it
takes away the "diversity visa" and because solving the universally acceptable
high-skill immigration issue reduces pressure for "comprehensive immigration
reform", which is primarily about (by the numbers) Mexicans in the US, and
secondarily other central and South Americans, few of whom have STEM degrees
or work in tech.

------
ck2
I'm admittedly ignorant on the details of why more tech green cards are
needed.

Is there a country that does tech immigration "right" like Canadian health-
care is compared to US health care?

I don't like the idea of discriminating who can be an immigrant based on what
they know - or the model of what their income level is (ie. foreign corporate
bigwigs get easy long term visas)

I also don't like the idea that immigration is being sponsored to get lower
wage workers for the same position, how can we insure that high-tech
immigrants are paid the same as a domestic worker and not being taken
advantage of?

The worst problem I see with all of this is the idea that American colleges
are not producing people who would be compatible for these jobs despite the
millions of people who go into debt to get higher education. Maybe congress
should be addressing that first and the timebomb of student loans and why
college costs go up exactly based on what loans are available.

~~~
eshvk
> Is there a country that does tech immigration "right" like Canadian health-
> care is compared to US health care?

Erm..maybe the Canadian immigration system? They have a points based system
where expertise in rare specialized skills gets you further up the value chain
as far as getting a PR card. However, I am not particularly sure how robust
their system is when compared to the American system and whether that setup
would scale when ported here.

> I don't like the idea of discriminating who can be an immigrant based on
> what they know - or the model of what their income level is (ie. foreign
> corporate bigwigs get easy long term visas)

I like the diversity visa personally and don't agree with the idea that the
50K visas that make America a truly diverse nation should be poured into the
pool of visas for tech ( A majority of which are really people of Indian and
Chinese origin). Also, yes, I have heard of people "hacking" the visa system
by coming in as corporate managers from foreign nations and easily getting
green cards as "Aliens of extraordinary ability". However, you will have to
understand that the U.S. is extraordinarily paranoid of the idea of people
turning out to be public charges which I figure is why this discrimination
exists.

> I also don't like the idea that immigration is being sponsored to get lower
> wage workers for the same position, how can we insure that high-tech
> immigrants are paid the same as a domestic worker and not being taken
> advantage of?

Well that is interesting, because I suspect that does happen pretty
significantly in the industry especially when people born in India and China
are involved. The process takes multiple years and if I understand it
correctly, there are points where you can't leave your job for fear of
starting over and losing years in the line. This to me is a situation that is
ripe for exploitation.

> The worst problem I see with all of this is the idea that American colleges
> are not producing people who would be compatible for these jobs despite the
> millions of people who go into debt to get higher education.

This is a societal issue. I am not sure legislation can address this. In third
world countries, there is extraordinary pressure to succeed and getting an
advanced degree is one of the easier ways to get into the middle class or
maintain your position in it. This is important especially considering that
there is literally no safety net. On the other hand, one can exist just fine
either as part of the middle class or the lower middle class with a minimal
skill set in the U.S.

------
cbhl
Just curious, how many of the HN faithful have Master's or higher level
education? I would suspect that STEM grads who'd benefit most from this would
predominately 'only' have Bachelor's degrees, if that even.

~~~
drx
The funny thing about this is it wouldn't even benefit most people who hold a
non-U.S. Master's degree.

U.S. Bachelor's degrees usually take 4 years to complete, after which a U.S.
Master's degree takes 2 years.

Many non-U.S. bachelor's degrees take only 3 years and as a result, the USCIS
deems having a 3 year Bachelor's + 2 year Master's as being unworthy of a U.S.
Master's degree, instead equating it to a U.S. Bachelor's degree.

~~~
lttlrck
Yep. This happened to me. And having 15 years of 100% relevant industrial
experience including being a company director made no difference to visa pool
I was placed in...

------
fuddle
"One problem, said Lofgren, is that the Republicans' swap would actually cut
immigration, since there are not enough foreigners with advanced degrees who
want to emigrate"

This is plain wrong, last year the H1B visa cap was reached in June. The year
before in November. I applied for the H1B visa for a job in SF, two years ago,
but I missed the cap by one day. Hopefully the limit will be increased this
year.

------
kunle
Wonder why they wouldnt just add 50k STEM Green Cards instead of swapping them
out? Seems like posturing.

~~~
makmanalp
Key quote from the article:

> Republicans are "trying to pretend they're pro-immigrant by this bill,
> knowing that it goes nowhere," said U.S. Rep. Zoe Lofgren, D-San Jose, the
> top Democrat on the House immigration subcommittee.

I run a visa-related site so I try to follow these things closely. There
actually were 3 different candidates for such a STEM visa bill. Basically the
republicans are trying to pass one that the senate is unlikely to accept at
this point, hoping that efforts to muster up another bill following this will
be exhausted. Failing that, they'll have passed a bill that satisfies their
lobbyists.

Previously, Lamar smith tried to pass a different STEM visa bill that was
failed under suspension, but was backed by Apple, HP, Intel, IBM, Oracle, etc.

We'll see how this goes.

I plan to do a writeup on this soon.

------
stuaxo
As an outsider .. I thought the US had loads of out of work high skill
programmers etc. The problem is just that companies don't want to pay them a
reasonable rate, and use green carders instead?

------
elliott99
I would be curious to see what effect this has on PHD programs

~~~
eshvk
On the larger scale of things it is going to be minimal. The proportion of
Indians and Chinese in the PhD programs is so high and 50,000 visas is so much
of a small drop in the vast ocean, that it may have a tiny effect blimp in the
curve or not, considering that there are so many other latent variables that
come into play.

