
Craigslist now asks for exclusive license when posting - jonathanberger
http://baligu.blogspot.com/2012/08/i-dont-remember-seeing-this-before-at.html
======
ChrisNorstrom
Wow. Under the disguise of a pseudo-charity, Craigslist just revealed it's
true intentions. They foolishly just opened themselves up to a lot of hate and
possibly gave people a huge reason to try out competitors. This may be the
beginning of the end of Craigslist's Empire. This is usually how it starts,
users being held hostage, increased control, and decreased satisfaction with
the service with no way out due to network effects.

We all believed in Craigslist and this is our reward? WE built up Craigslist
to be what it is and now we're held hostage for it? I feel like a fool, why do
we keep falling for this? Help the little grow until he becomes king and
screws us all.

~~~
ralfn
Thats a little dramatic.

CL isnt popular here in Holland, but i was under the impression, it was ebay
meets dating, using a 200 byte php forum file, that looked so old, you would
just assume encodimg errors.

Why are you getting your panties in a twist? What import role does this site
play in your life or that of others?

~~~
stellar678
Craigslist is gigantic in big US metro areas.

It's pretty much the standard way to find a place to live, to find an employee
or a job, to buy and sell used cars, etc... etc...

It's also known for having 3 times higher revenue-per-employee than Google
even though the vast majority of activity on the site is free.

~~~
nacorbier
I don't think people outside the US understand how large Craigslist is. I
spend 1 hour, each work day, looking at the national OMPL gig feed after its
been filtered for charity/stupidity/things I don't do, to see if I can pick up
supplemental clients between larger accounts.

The amount of spam and high expectations / low financial reward is high, but a
lot of my small business contracts are from Craigslist.

------
crazygringo
I'm always fascinated when companies make that _one_ decision which seems to
lead to their downfall -- and everyone seems to be able to see it, except the
company itself.

I think this is a great thing -- if Craigslist can get enough bad press from
this, then maybe a movement for "free and copyable" classifieds listings can
take place, and there can be competition in the space again.

~~~
jeremymims
Craigslist could:

\- kill Padmapper instantly by building a map function to view their listings.

\- elect not to build a map feature because they think it's trivial and they
believe no one cares. So Padmapper should languish.

\- buy Padmapper for a little bit of money and have Eric help make their
product better.

\- hire Eric to make their product better.

\- invest a little money into Padmapper as a hedge and hope it does well.

\- charge Padmapper a data access fee

These are all totally reasonable options.

Instead, Craig turned to the lawyers and sued Padmapper for using Google's
listings and decided that all CL posts are now their exclusive property. If CL
really didn't want this data out in the wild, they'd prevent Google from
indexing their site.

This is not only a dick thing to do, it's an especially dick thing to do if
you sit on the board of The Sunlight Foundation and the advisory board of
Wikimedia.

Craig Newmark is a lazy monopolist at this point. All profit taking, no
innovation.

~~~
hnriot
This seems very naive to think that Craig gives a damn about padmapper, they
(CL) have every right to license their data to whomever they want, and PM
choose not to seek such a license so I seriously doubt Eric would really stand
much of a chance getting a job with CL.

You speak as though CL is broken, and it clearly isn't, as a marketplace it
functions well. You may not like the website, but it's marketplace first,
website second. If you want to sell something, it has the inventory and the
customers.

Craid had to sue PM, it's just business, it wasn't a personal attack or a
"dick thing" as you seem to think.

~~~
paulgb
> You speak as though CL is broken, and it clearly isn't, as a marketplace it
> functions well.

I'm guessing you've never had to find an apartment on Craigslist. Sifting
through spam, scams, fake listings by agents, listings that have already been
sold... sure, you can do it, but it's not efficient.

~~~
vampirechicken
Clearly people are still finding value on CL. Hacker News readers are in a
demographic that views the internet and the web VERY differently from how
people who do not create internet services for a living view them. We care
about a completely other set of factors then they do.

We don't bookmark facebook.com we rely on the browser history, having typed it
in to the address bar once. They use google to search for the link to the
facebook login.

They hear that CL is the biggest site for classified ads, so they post there.
They don't care that padmapper will put their apartment on a map, they don't
care about other sites.

CL did the hard work of attracting the people to the marketplace. Padmapper is
not doing any of that hard work. It is my opinion, if you're doing the hard
work of building the community and attracting the users, then you'll agree
with CL on this issue. If you're a repackager, then you'll side with
padmapper.

If your business idea is "Some corner of Craigs List with a better UI" then by
all means, build the UI and then convince people to GIVE you their data.

~~~
owenjones
To me, the word community connotes a separate entity that you interact with in
some way, usually due to proximity. You might define the Craigslist Community
as only people visiting craiglist.com but to me it would imply sites such as
Padmapper that extend and improve Craigslist data. They are symbiotic and
support the same community of users, Padmapper is not "repackaging" Craigslist
like some sort of parasite like you imply.

Anecdotally, whenever I've used Padmapper to find a new apartment I would end
up on craiglist.com anyway as Padmapper would often not contain the real
estate agent's contact information.

------
melvinmt
Nice, you take the time to craft your listing on craigslist and now you've
lost the right to repost your listing ANYWHERE else. I think we can safely
assume that craigslist has a monopoly in (free) online classifieds and this
reeks of very anti-competitive behavior. Wonder what the DOJ thinks of this.

~~~
achompas
This is a bit knee-jerk, no? I highly doubt you waive the right to repost your
listing ANYWHERE; rather, this is legalese allowing them to sue anyone using
their listings without consent.

~~~
dangrossman
Read the text. Exclusive license. That means you may not license your post to
any other site; giving someone else permission to display your listing is a
grant of a license, and such a license is explicitly mentioned in the terms of
any UGC site, including Craigslist. The difference is those other terms always
say NON-exclusive. Go ahead and stop by YouTube and do a search for the word.

This isn't boilerplate legalese.

~~~
jc123
Hard to see the day when craigslist tries to sue posters for this "violation";
so effectively posters can ignore this legalese as it's targeted to give
craiglist ammunition against other sites.

~~~
defen
> effectively posters can ignore this legalese

Operationally, probably true. However, ethically this is no different than the
people who said PadMapper should just use "Craigslist's" data regardless of
what Craigslist thought about the situation. To be consistent, either you
believe:

1) It's ok for PadMapper to re-list Craigslist's data without Craigslist's
consent.

OR

2) If you post a housing listing to Craigslist, you cannot post it anywhere
else.

~~~
alttab
If CraigsList ever went after a poster who also posted their classified on
another site, that would probably be the day they begin to unravel.

You don't want to instill fear into posters (IE, their product) that they
could get sued by posting even a similar ad on a competing site. Then you
enter the territory "I only have access to people who check craigslist"
instead of an array of additional, complementary options. That doesn't sound
very attractive.

~~~
defen
Right, I don't think they would ever sue their own users. But the point is
that you don't get to simply ignore parts of an agreement that you don't agree
with, because "that's not what they meant". So the people who were saying that
PadMapper has no right to use Craigslist's data should be careful not to
submit to multiple listing services if they ever put a house up for rent on
Craigslist, if they care at all about consistent application of their
principles.

~~~
alttab
I don't conflate the two at all.

Padmapper scraping data put up on CraigsList and adding it to their own
listings is very very different than me putting my own listing on multiple
sites.

I don't see this as a "application of principles" issue. The principle I'm
consistently applying is "I have the right to tell whomever I want about
something I want to sell." And Craigslist is applying the consistent principle
that the listing I provided belongs to them. If you ask me, putting my listing
somewhere else makes it a different listing, because it didn't originate at
craigslist (Like stolen listings on PadMapper), but instead, originated
through me.

To apply my principle consistently, I wouldn't post a link to my Craigslist
posting on another site, but I am perfectly entitled to re-post its _content_
where-ever I please.

~~~
defen
The new agreement says that by posting on Craigslist, you give them an
_exclusive_ license to the content. You can't give them an exclusive license
and then turn around and give the content to someone else.

------
chrisacky
Ask AirBnB: Going to change your integration now?

Since AirBnB has _tight_ Craigslist integration, allowing the user to post
their listing _after_ they have posted on AirBnB, this sounds like a total
paradoxical situation (for lack of a better word). AirBnB kind of set up a
listing acting a "proxy", but the owner of the listing hits the final
"confirm" to post.

Take a look here for example of the integration.
[http://andrewchen.co/2012/04/27/how-to-be-a-growth-hacker-
an...](http://andrewchen.co/2012/04/27/how-to-be-a-growth-hacker-an-
airbnbcraigslist-case-study/)

~~~
wmeredith
I'm wondering the same thing for the excellent classifieds app on iOS:
Yardsale.

~~~
chainedtodesk
How much does Yardsale rely on Craigslist to stay alive? I posted a few items
on Yardsale but got empty, flaky replies from Craigslist and still had the
"crazy inbox" problem. Using this as a jumping off point to divorce from
Craigslist, it would be good for Yardsale to differentiate itself with quality
of buyers and manageability of enquiries rather than act as just a portal with
all of the same problems and no real benefits.

------
wpietri
What's up with their recent change in behavior? Craig's public statements are
basically, "Hey, I'm just a customer service guy; talk to the CEO." And as far
as I've seen, the CEO has stayed quiet.

If they're worried about losing relevancy to innovators, why not try
innovating rather than legal maneuvering?

~~~
danielweber
The best way to play a game of chicken is to publicly tear the steering wheel
out of the car. Craig is acting similarly, pretending there is nothing he can
do, so you won't complain to him.

------
prawn
From Wikipedia: "In December 2006, at the UBS Global Media Conference in New
York, Craigslist CEO Jim Buckmaster told Wall Street analysts that Craigslist
has little interest in maximizing profit, instead it prefers to help users
find cars, apartments, jobs, and dates."

~~~
achompas
There's a big gap between "little interest in maximizing profit" and "little
interest in fending off existential threats," no?

~~~
wpietri
No. Either your first priority is delivering value to your users or it's not.
Craigslist has changed from one to the other.

Padmapper isn't the existential threat. It's CL's failure to keep improving.

~~~
achompas
Despite the reigning opinion on HN, adding this legalese to postings does not
hinder CL's ability to serve its users.

~~~
wpietri
I never said otherwise. But as the Padmapper thing shows, the point of the
legalese is to hinder people who are serving its users.

~~~
achompas
CL has every right to do that, especially since scraping CL listings creates a
very high amount of load on their servers. Higher load --> slower response
time --> deteriorated user experience.

~~~
tempestn
Padmapper (and 3taps) don't scrape craigslist though. They get all info from
public sources such as search engine caches.

------
rincewind
Does this license mean copyright? In Germany you cannot protect facts with
copyright. Something like "Flat for rent: $size m², $price €, $coordinates,
$link" seems more like a fact or an idea.

~~~
kleiba
Also, in Germany you cannot give up or transfer copyright to someone else.

~~~
robomartin
How does that work? If I write a book and then sell it to a book publisher and
want to transfer all rights and copyrights? I can't?

~~~
andyjohnson0
There is some information here:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_Germany#Transf...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_Germany#Transfer)

It looks like you can't transfer copyright but you can exclusively licence it.

~~~
Xylakant
It's a bit more complicated: We don't have copyright as the americans do, it's
split in "Urheberrecht" which is the part the the creator owns and cannot
license or sell and the "Verwertungsrecht" which is the right to use the work.

Urheberrecht encompasses thing such as the right do defend against
modifications that go against the spirit of the work or the author or against
defacing it, the right to be named as the creator (though this one can be
waived by contract depending on the circumstance) etc. The Urheberrecht can
only be transferred by inheritance.

The Verwertungsrechte is anything related to the use of the work, such as
selling, buying, (sub)licensing it.

Please keep in mind that this is a gross oversimplification and IANAL. The
copyright situation is complicated enough for experts in the field and cannot
be explained in a short post I guess :)

------
esbwhat
Why don't they just add a damn map mode already? I get it, they don't want to
change "the secret formula", so make craigslistmapper.com as an extension of
craigslist. Everyone who doesn't want to deal with mapping can stay at
craigslist.

------
learc83
The judge in the Righthaven (copyright troll) case ruled they didn't have
standing to sue, specifically because they didn't have an _exclusive_ license.
I guess this is a response to that.

I still don't think most craigslist posts are copyrightable though.

I think the only real long term solution is for craigslist to build and charge
for an API, because I really don't think their copyright claims will hold up
in court if someone with enough money to handle the legal battle shows up one
day.

------
grabeh
This move is against the grain of other sites which accept UGC. It has
obviously been moved to the submission page from the main terms of use to
attract attention to the clause, in order to increase the chances that
Craigslist can rely on it in future.

It will also allow them to argue that subject to compliance with the licence,
the information could only have been accessed from CL.

The reality of course is that for a certain number people (perhaps limited) CL
will be the only site where the submit content and will therefore not be
concerned about granting an exclusive licence.

However, I'm sure a greater percentage of people will not necessarily grasp
what Craigslist are asking for here and will not be put off posting elsewhere.
Of course, CL will not go around enforcing the terms of the exclusive licence
against the user.

The grant of exclusivity will simply allow them to argue that subject to
compliance with the licence, the information could only have been accessed
from CL, or at least is more likely to have been obtained from CL.

If Craigslist are serious about ensuring they can rely on the exclusive
licence it should be made clear that the grant means the user can't post the
content anywhere else however this may mean that people would be more put off
using the site.

My view is that it's a shame that CL are now attempting to assert an even
tighter stranglehold over information originating from users. In the long run
it may assist Padmapper in pushing people away from using CL in the first
instance.

It's also worth nothing that their terms of use need to be updated to reflect
the exclusivity change:

<http://www.craigslist.org/about/terms.of.use>

------
paulsutter
This decision is the early sign that Craigslist is a dying company. It won't
have a big direct impact: users won't notice and the PR impact won't go beyond
entrepreneur circles.

But it shows their confidence is suffering and they're starting to focus on
defensive measures - even defensive measure that go against their original
values. Its not a sign of impending doom, just a sign that a long decline is
underway.

------
dedward
Seems to me that would only apply to the specific instance of content you
posted on CL. If you create another post somewhere else, just make it
different - it's not a work derived from that content.. it's derived from
facts that you already know.

You could post different content on another site all you like.. but nobody can
take CL's content and use it.

------
marquis
Before this news, I was playing with the idea of a crowd-sourced scraper which
would avoid Craigslist being able to ban particular IP addresses: for example
a javascript scraper that the end-user runs for the few moments they are on a
particular viewing site. Now that this has been passed even this idea would
seem to fail.

I believe that Craigslist is an immense, rich resource where the inertia of
it's community to move en-masse to another service means it highly unlikely
that another site will take over in the near or near-far future. I am saddened
that Craigslist can't simply provide (paid or whatever) API access to their
data and encourage a healthy sub-ecosystem.

------
smsm42
Saying you have something doesn't really mean you have something - I'm not
sure that would stand in court. IANAL, of course, and anything can happen,
especially in bizarro world of computerized information where there's no legal
practice refined by hundreds of years of common sense applications, so such
thing may probably be useful for Craigslist to go after some content
scrappers. But I seriously doubt they would ever go after the post owner for
reporting his own content.

------
alan_cx
Um, dont most people just click OK, Accept or whatever, with out ever reading
on? Cant see the vast majority giving a toss. How many stories have there been
about ebay, paypal, facebook, etc, and none of those sites seem to be losing
loads of users, if any.

I mean, I even had a facebook "friend" forward a circular about the evils of
facebook, saying "we" should all be up in arms. I asked her if she was going
to close her FB account. Yeah, you all know the answer.

------
MartinCron
One thing that never comes up in these discussions is community moderation.
Craigslist relies on the community to flag off content that's inappropriate
(spam, overpost, whatever).

I wonder of the Craigslist folks are looking at alternative interfaces as ways
people will get the good stuff (real listings) without having to do the work
of wading through and flagging off the bad stuff.

------
chayesfss
It's no wonder, more people try to take craigslist data and push it in their
own site while serving ads it's crazy. Yes, when I post an ad on craigslist I
want that ad to be on craigslist, don't have a problem with that at all.

------
keiferski
How could Craigslist possibly enforce this? Are they going to look for every
single ad on every single classifieds website to ensure that it's not exactly
the same?

Unless someone like PadMapper is scraping data, it seems impossible to
enforce.

------
malandrew
Most people forget this, but you can put whatever you want in the ToS. Just
because they put this in the Terms of Use, doesn't mean it will stand up in a
court of law.

------
einhverfr
So if you are a self-published author I guess you had better not sell your
books on Craigslist, using a part of the blurb posted on the back!

------
Spoom
Is this legally enough for Craigslist? Wouldn't they need a full copyright
assignment in order to pursue copyright infringement claims?

~~~
sadga
Yeah, it seems like weird wording, asking for confirmation that they can sue,
without establishing the basis.

------
achompas
IANAL, of course, but before we all bring out the pitchforks, what does the
word "content" mean in

 _Clicking "Continue" confirms that craigslist is the exclusive licensee of
this content_

Does it refer, as many posters suggest below, to the item sold in the listing?
Or does it only refer to the contents of the listing? If it's the former, I
question its legal defensibility (oh man I'm not a lawyer, but I think that's
right). If it's the latter, this is a clear pre-emptive move against future
PadMapper-type problems.

------
bob_george33
Standard move I'd say. Stops people from making services that pull information
from Craigslist and advertise it elsewhere.

~~~
dangrossman
It's not very standard. The standard text in a UGC site's terms is to grant a
_non-exclusive_ license to the submitted content, and does not grant the sole
rights to enforce the copyright in that content. This text on the submission
form is both new and non-standard; it doesn't even agree with what's in their
TOS document.

An exclusive license means landlords themselves are giving up their right to
post the same listing on other rental listing sites, for example, by using a
tool that would post the exact same listing to multiple sites.

~~~
jonathanberger
Thanks for pointing this out Dan, I updated the post to include snippets of
other popular terms. You're absolutely right.

------
threepipeproblm
For whatever reason, my intuition suggests this is a clear sign that
Craigslist won't be bothering us much longer.

------
jordanthoms
Wow craigslist, way to be evil.

------
bwb
Good bye craiglist!

------
jonknee
This means in some areas you now get the pleasure of paying Cragslist to grant
them an exclusive license to your content. That's rich

------
gfaigpodsfisfp
Why all the hate towards Craigslist when HN is the same way? Try to delete
your account. Better yet, ask PG if he will. Nope. All yer data r belong to
them.

Pot, meet kettle.

~~~
Karunamon
What data does HN keep on you? Also I fully agree with non-revocable licenses
for discussion forums. Having all of someone's postings disappear because they
leave in huff is damaging to the site.

------
Evbn
This seems basically the same as the FSF's copyright assignment practice for
GPL products, or Apache Foundation's practice, for basically the same goals.

------
PaulMcCartney
Aww shoot! Now I can't repaste my posting to.....wait....where?

------
vtry
This is no different than say cable tv franchise monopolies.

------
duked
Honestly I have no stake in this, but I'm happy CL is doing that change. 3TAP
and Padmapper and just trying to build a "buisness" sucking up posts from CL
and tried to find doggy way around it. CL don't want their post used somehwere
else, no fancy UI it's their right and it's now becoming their clear LEGAL
right. I have zero sympathy for padmapper I actually think their buisness
practices are disgusting (CL offered them a licence they just dind't want to
pay).

~~~
prodigal_erik
Craigslist offered a useless mobile-only license that wouldn't have permitted
padmapper to remain on the web. And forbidding landlords from pasting their
own ad into any other site is shockingly anticompetitive.

