
Show HN: Open Socialism – Hack on a democracy/capitalism alternative - BobTheCoder
https://opensocialism.com
======
traverseda
Maybe spend a bit less time telling me why "democratic capitalism" is bad, and
a bit more time telling me why your system is good.

You fail to tell me what actual mechanisms you're proposing to fix this, and
until you've got that you've got nothing.

Is it just a call to action? Asking people in tech to think about the
problems?

Because the people who were inclined to think about this already are, whether
it's Charles Stross talking about interfacing centrally planned economies with
capitalism in his novels, or the pirate party working on fluid democracy.

I'm also not convinced your socialist/communist political theory is up-to-
snuff. No one is arguing that the capture-value/create-value disparity isn't a
big problem, but claiming that it's all because of human-selfishness instead
of more nuanced coordination problems is concerning.

Read meditations on moloch, and less communism 102. Don't make an ideological
tract, try to build something.

~~~
BobTheCoder
Thanks for the feedback.

The essence of open socialism is to have a cooperative system without free
enterprise. I think most people would accept that without resources expended
due to competition and controlled wealth inequality, a cooperative system is
more productive since everyone is working primarily on the good of society,
not for their own personal gain. A large proportion of the surplus created can
be reinvested into the good of society and not go to a small percentage of
wealthy people where it often does more harm than good. I think on paper this
type of system is much better for the majority and for long term progress.

The traditional (valid) criticism of such systems (eg. communism) is that the
'state' has too much power in these and those in control will become corrupt.
Open socialism is quite focused on this key flaw and primarily addresses it by
having society run much like an open source project, with all deliberation and
operation done entirely in the open. Add to this the consensus seeking model
to making corrupting decisions more difficult.

I posted it here hoping that people would give feedback or help if they are
interested.

Cheers

~~~
traverseda
I feel like you're talking through me.

When I said "Created value vs captured value", I was essentially saying

>cooperative system is more productive since everyone is working primarily on
the good of society, not for their own personal gain

I'm not misunderstanding what the problem is with capitalism, or what
socialism hopes to achieve. So please to read my feedback with that in mind,
and don't just keep trying to explain socialism/communism to me.

I'm on-board, capitalism is bad.

~~~
BobTheCoder
You seemed unclear about open socialism and my motivations for posting so I
tried to clarify. Anyway, let's keep chatting on github if you are keen.

------
BobTheCoder
Hi,

I created Open Socialism as a compelling alternative to democratic capitalism.

Democratic capitalism had some good years and achieved a lot, but it has
started to be highly inequitable and exploitative. With modern technology and
science (including agile and open source practices) we can create much more
equitable and productive systems.

I created a tl;dr page for software industry people -
[https://opensocialism.com/tldr-for-software-
people](https://opensocialism.com/tldr-for-software-people)

I have written a moderate amount but it is more a starting point to be
iterated upon. Any feedback or help is greatly appreciated.

[https://github.com/open-socialism/open-
socialism.github.io](https://github.com/open-socialism/open-
socialism.github.io)

Happy to answer any questions in the comments.

Thanks

------
fiatjaf
Have you read a good part of the canonical literature against
socialism/communism? Because you make a lot of points that have been discussed
in the past, and you don't address the criticisms.

~~~
BobTheCoder
Hi,

The classic issues that I am aware of are:

\- Those in power have too much power and cannot be deposed democratically. As
such they will assuredly become corrupt.

\- 'from each according to their ability, to each according to their need'
means that people aren't incentivized to strive and will be lazy and won't
invent and innovate.

This page [https://opensocialism.com/open-
socialism](https://opensocialism.com/open-socialism) covers these two points.

Are there other classical issues I am missing? Is there any literature you
would recommend for this?

Thanks

~~~
fiatjaf
These are criticisms people say on the streets, and they vague, empty and lack
explanation. Although I also find your answers vague and empty, it's nice that
you tried to answer them.

Anyway, I think it is safe to ignore that discussion, because it is way too
common and biased.

My humble suggestion is that you should start on the purely economic side of
the high-level discussion. This[1] is something that raised a lot of
discussion (pro and against the socialist side) between top economists of the
previous century and that has lasted many years. I think you should start
there.

[1]: [https://mises.org/library/socialism-economic-and-
sociologica...](https://mises.org/library/socialism-economic-and-sociological-
analysis)

~~~
BobTheCoder
Thanks. I did some research on that book. The 'economic calculation problem'
seems to be the main point. I disagree that market forces are the only way to
price goods and services. Why can't goods be priced that factor in the aspect
of supply and demand, but also factor in the cost of offering those goods and
services, both the immediate cost and the cost to the environment? It doesn't
seem like an impossible problem, just that it takes deliberate effort by the
state.

Note that in open socialism goods and services (including food, clothing etc.)
are priced.

I generally agree that around 100 years ago when 'Socialism: An Economic and
Sociological Analysis' was written socialism was difficult to impossible. Now
with modern technology I think that it is possible and has less problems than
capitalism.

Is there some key flaw in socialism that you think prevents it from being
viable?

~~~
fiatjaf
The idea of the State coming up with a method to calculate prices taking
account of supply, demand and cost, was a topic of intense debates that
followed the publication of that book.

See, for example, Oskar Lange and Henry Douglas Dickinson proposals, and
Friedrich Hayek's rebuttals.

What I am begging you is to stop thinking you have all the right answers
before getting to know what other people have already said on the topic.

