
The employees shut inside coffins - amelius
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34797017
======
joonhocho
Korean here. Korea is too competitive, and its system is so corrupt that
younger people are feeling hopeless and committing suicide. For them, it's the
last resort and the only way out of their misery. It's been many years since
Korea has taken its place as no.1 in suicidal rate. It's currently the worst
time for the younger generations with very high unemployment rate and very low
wages ($5 minimum wage while average housing price in Seoul is hitting its
record high around $500k). Yet, what people with power and money are trying is
to blame them for not having a "strong" and "positive" mindset. I once watched
a TV show where they gathered up people with failed suicide attempts. They end
up saying "love yourself". Instead of fixing obvious systematic problems, they
always blame the poor people and tell them things like "money doesn't buy you
a happiness." and "love is a cure to every problem". It just makes me so
angry.

EDIT: They also say things like "Be more appreciative that you were not born
in North Korea!"

~~~
drzaiusapelord
The unemployment rate for under 25 in places like Spain and Greece is 50%. Why
aren't we seeing more suicide there?

I think there's something specific about suicide in the East that we just
don't have in the West for whatever reason. There's a sort of social
acceptance of it, but here, there's no tolerance of it. Maybe there's more
resources for depressed people in the West as mental illness is beginning to
shed its stigma since the start of things like psychoanalysis and the
mainstreaming of therapy and anti-depressants. These things may not have
properly made it to Asia. Not to mention, societies based on Confucianism put
so much emphasis on shame that a reasonable way out of it is to just kill
yourself. The idea of treating mental illness and challenging suicide
acceptance may be culturally repellant and tough to challenge. Japan also
suffers from this and is famous for its suicide forests and very high suicide
rate.

~~~
Swizec
> I think there's something specific about suicide in the East that we just
> don't have in the West for whatever reason.

Are you sure? I'm not so sure. I think we just don't talk about it. There is
_a lot_ of suicide in the West. Staggeringly plenty.

Look at any statistics and you'll see that in most of the West, suicide is at
the very peak of causes of death. 10th leading cause of death in 2013
officially.[1] And that doesn't count all those "Swerved left into oncoming
traffic for no obvious reason" cases.

And pay attention to the news. Every "found dead in their apartment" news
report for a famous person is a suicide. There's a lot of those.

But the West has a very strong ethic of not reporting suicide for fear of
suicide epidemics. That's why celebrity suicides are never reported as
suicides and why suicides in general rarely make it into the news.[2]

In short, suicide is a very real problem in the West too.

[1] [http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/suicide-
datasheet-...](http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/suicide-
datasheet-a.PDF)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide#Journalism_cod...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide#Journalism_codes)

~~~
madgar
I literally just yesterday saw on national television news a report that
suicide is the second leading cause of death for teenagers in the US.

Rather than invoking conspiracy theories, consider this much simpler theory:
Western media doubles as entertainment and doesn't report much on suicide when
they don't have to because it's fucking depressing.

------
tonyle
At first I thought it was some employer gone crazy.

Halfway down, I realize it's just like any other big company tactics. Some
upper management suggest all employees practice positive thinking, offering a
course on how do deal with stress, forced laughter, etc.

Then I wondered how common this practice was for a company to offer this to
their employees in the same way a company would offer free massages or
therapy.

Seems to be a common, even competitive business in Korea.

Now I'm not sure how I feel about it. It could be some big new spiritual
trend, but it could also be some shady business taking advantage of the
depressed.

~~~
paulojreis
Personally, I thinks it's way, way past any acceptable measure to improve
positive thinking and engagement. It's closer to a shock tactic than to any
_new-age_ /*spiritual "put life into perspective" thing.

Really, it's just too deliberately traumatic.

~~~
stcredzero
_It 's closer to a shock tactic than to any new-age/_spiritual "put life into
perspective" thing.*

Actually, things like "Est" often used shock tactics, and were deliberately
traumatic. (Though only slightly in the vast scheme of things.)

------
coldcode
Before looking at the article I thought it was a new office layout. No more
cube farms, no more open layout, now we put people into little work coffins.

~~~
FuNe
Not far from truth. Not far at all for many of us.

PS: Some good ole Pink Floyd music would suit this as well.

~~~
aab0
Some psychedelics would probably make the experience far more effective as
well.

------
orblivion
"This person doesn't even have limbs and they learned to swim. And you can't
deal with your own stupid little problems?" Not exactly a confidence builder.
It just guilts you back into living.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Some of us gain perspective from comparisons like that. We don't need guilt to
motivate us. Its unfair to imagine folks only react to guilt but not to a real
appreciation of their situation.

~~~
orblivion
Well, I know what it's for, and I can appreciate that aspect. I just know it's
been used on me and had that effect.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Steinbeck (in Grapes of Wrath?) had a character recite the 5 levels of moral
development. It went something like this:

1) I don't want to get in trouble

2) I want to please someone

3) I want to follow the rules

4) I want to help other people

and the highest level,

5) I have a personal moral code, and I abide by it

He explained these as levels we reach with age - entering school at age 5 or 6
we first hide from trouble. Then in first grade we want to please the nice
teacher. Somewhere in middle school kids become rules-lawyers. Later in life
they may learn to be philanthropic.

People can be stuck at one of these early levels for life.

~~~
arielweisberg
I think it's not just age, but the wealth and prosperity that can go along
with it. It's easier to have a moral code and look down on those with less
when your own needs and wants are secure.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
My old minister used to say "We can have all the morals we can afford"

------
stcredzero
My Korean mom mentions dying all the time. It's not unusual for her to manage
to come out with "being born...is a license to _die!_ " (complete with pointed
finger) in the middle of a conversation. One of her favorite superlatives is
"Oh, it was so [adjective] I was going to die!" She'd also often use the
equivalent of, "would it have killed you? No, you should kill it!" I have no
idea if this is a Korean thing, or if it's just my mom being weird. I grew up
in a place where we had to drive 50 miles to be with other asians.

In my creole ex-girlfriend's family, you never mentioned death. _Ever._ To do
so was to tempt fate.

~~~
nostrademons
I think that many Confucian cultures feature a _general_ sense of shame,
fatalism, and inevitable death that is coupled with a _specific_ drive toward
self-improvement and seizing the day. We're all imperfect beings who are going
to die eventually, so might as well live it up when you can. At least, that's
the message I get from my Chinese father.

Many American-Christian cultures, by contrast, have a general sense of
optimism, redemption, eternalism, and a belief that the future will be better
than the past, coupled with specific feelings of guilt, irresponsibility, and
imperfection. God loves us and He will forgive our sins, as long as we accept
Him into our hearts. And so this drive to master the world before it masters
us is not so strong, because the world is fundamentally benevolent. At least
that was the message I got from my Irish-Catholic maternal grandfather.

The juxtaposition of the two belief systems is very striking, if you're
exposed to both, and can lead to many misunderstandings. I remember being so
frustrated with my dad and his constant pronouncements that the world was
about to end in 3 weeks, a belief that, when I mention it to American friends,
is considered outright paranoia. But having grown up a bit and married a
Taiwanese-American woman who once lived in rural Peru, it's interesting to
compare different cultures and their fundamental beliefs. This belief that
we're eternally dying doesn't seem to faze most Asians; they just accept it
and go about their life.

It's also interesting to see how quickly many Asians adopt Christianity once
they immigrate to the West. I've got both family members and in-laws who have
gone that route; I'd imagine that the promise of eternal salvation when coming
from a culture that has this constant background message of inevitable death
and societal decay must be pretty attractive.

~~~
stcredzero
My mom's side of the family has been Catholic for some generations now. I
think we even have some martyrs in our family. Mom's very staunchly Catholic,
though she's more progressive than all the popes prior to this one. It's more
of an identity to her than an ideology.

------
jondubois
If I worked for such company, I would probably feel better INSIDE the coffin.

~~~
googletazer
My sentiment exactly - at least inside the coffin in that exercise you're
temporarily isolated from the craziness outside.

------
dmxt
Just woke up to the most clickbait title I've ever seen in the day. On topic:
This article touched me and I want to change the direction where my life is
headed. I'm sure this experience is very vivid for them.

------
drzaiusapelord
Stuff like this is why I welcome the upcoming automation/AI/robot revolution.
Humans just don't handle stress well. We're a mess when things go wrong or we
feel slighted or feel stuck or whatever. Its incredible how delicate we are
and how office work, which was promised to be a pleasant alternative to
factory/farming work, is just as bad, if not worse than the alternatives from
a stress perspective.

There's something terribly unhealthy about being stuck in an office all day.
The risk/reward mechanism is screwy (do an amazing job, get the same salary as
doing a lackluster job), we don't move enough, don't get enough sunlight, and
it brings out the worst of people as getting ahead usually means playing a
mean and dishonest game of politics against your coworkers.

------
ekianjo
A lotof the cultural aspects described in this article also apply to Japan
almost litterally. Its not just a Korean thing.

~~~
legodt
Japan's stint as an imperial power in Korea has left a large impact in the
overall culture there

~~~
ekianjo
I'm not sure it's so much Japan's impact as a colonial power than the general
influence of confusianism.

------
outside1234
The most likely outcome of this for me would be that I would quit and go
backpacking. :)

------
nxzero
Is anyone in South Korea able to comment on why there's such a high sucide
rate?

According two Wikipedia, it's ranked number #2 in the world and double the
rate of sucide of America:

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate)

~~~
aab0
One theory is Durkheim's suicide hypothesis: South Korea's industrial
development has ripped apart the traditional society (already badly damaged by
the country's partition and the Korean War), and social norms and society have
not yet consolidated on new adaptive ways
[https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=durkheim+suicide+south+...](https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=durkheim+suicide+south+korea)

If so, we can hope that SK will gradually improve, especially if they can
figure out how to corral the out-of-control signaling arms-race which is their
educational system. (Although this also predicts bad news for China in the
coming decades.)

~~~
jessaustin
This is interesting, to treat a high suicide rate as a symptom of some other
problem, rather than the main problem in and of itself. I wish these fancy
American social scientists were capable of taking a similar look at USA, but
alas it's all beams and motes.

------
kqr2
OT : In the US, coffins are a big money maker for funeral homes which have
been accused of running a racket. Basically many funeral homes overcharge for
the coffins, engage in price fixing, and make claims (such as preserving the
body) that cannot be substantiated.

[https://www.globalaffairs.org/threads/funeral-homes-and-
coff...](https://www.globalaffairs.org/threads/funeral-homes-and-coffin-
racket.24154/)

Although there are some consumer protection laws in place, e.g. in some
states, funeral homes _must_ allow you to provide your own coffin. If you do,
however, they will just charge you more for other services to make up the
difference.

The funeral industry is another area which needs _disruption_.

~~~
tommorris
Basically, like with so many things, The Big Lebowski is right.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKjBFsyYC0g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKjBFsyYC0g)

------
luso_brazilian
From the article:

 _> In a large room in a nondescript modern office block in Seoul, staff from
a recruitment company are staging their own funerals. Dressed in white robes,
they sit at desks and write final letters to their loved ones. Tearful
sniffling becomes open weeping, barely stifled by the copious use of tissues._

 _> The macabre ritual is a bonding exercise designed to teach them to value
life. Before they get into the casket, they are shown videos of people in
adversity - a cancer sufferer making the most of her final days, someone born
without all her limbs who learned to swim._

Showing how worse things could be is a very cheap and torturous way to build
appreciation and attempt to increase morale.

 _> The participants at this session were sent by their employer, human
resources firm Staffs. "Our company has always encouraged employees to change
their old ways of thinking, but it was hard to bring about any real
difference," says its president, Park Chun-woong._

 _> "I thought going inside a coffin would be such a shocking experience it
would completely reset their minds for a completely fresh start in their
attitudes."_

And also

 _> He [Park Chun-woong, company president] also insists that his staff engage
in another ritual every morning when they get to work - they must do
stretching exercises together culminating in loud, joint outbursts of forced
laughter. They bray uproariously, like laughing asses together. It is odd to
see._

Here is a much better way to improve morale and to prevent the helplessness
that leads to suicides:

\- pay workers a livable wage

\- create an environment where the workday is completely and separated from
the personal day

\- and one where it is possible for the worker to fully live their lives apart
from their workplaces

Then none of these charades will ever be necessary again.

~~~
eva1984
I think you misread this from beginning. As someone from eastern asian
background, this feels not like some shady play that employer forces people
into, rather I think it is close to a what is a catharsis or some sort of
confession in western countries.

The belief system of Sinosphere is built on ancestor worship. Every year,
family gather together and goes to ancestor's tomb, do some cleaning and
present offering to the other world, memorizing the ceased while appreciating
contemporary life. I think this ritual works pretty much the same way, though
it might feel weird, but outcome isn't that bad.

~~~
quietplatypus
Even 'catharsis' as a Western idea isn't actually that helpful in practice.
For example, taking out your anger and feeling 'cathartic' is known to make
your emotional problems worse, not better, because you've given it a physical
outlet that affects everyone around you.

This is totally a cult-worshipping style setup where the name of the game
isn't employee health but ever increasing amounts of company loyalty. Notice
how one of the participants was quoted as wanting to "bring more passion" to
their work. People who need this treatment need a bigger life change than some
theatrics plus some what is most likely unenthusiastic if not totally coerced
admission that the bullshit helped.

Finally, don't bring "eastern asian background" into this. You should be able
to argue for or against something without using your background to appeal to
idiots and racists.

~~~
hitekker
> Finally, don't bring "eastern asian background" into this. You should be
> able to argue for or against something without using your background to
> appeal to idiots and racists.

This x 10. There is being open-minded and there is letting your brains fall
out. You can be culturally sensitive, but that should stop when you see
victims being stamped upon by a large firm boot, slowly and quietly into the
dirt.

~~~
SolaceQuantum
Who gets to say if not the people themselves?

Assuming you know better than the people might be the boot stamping you don't
see.

(I'm not part of the culture and have no opinion of it. I just disagree that
being east asian is irrelevant to something happening involving east asian
cultures and religious practices.)

------
hoodoof
I wonder if it has the opposite to the intended outcome.

~~~
tokai
Me too. If you have been contemplating suicide, this could serve as a
rehearsal showing you that it wouldn't be so bad. A depressed brain can react
to input in ways that seem counterintuitive for the non-depressed.

------
fsloth
How is this different from mock execution? If it's supposed to feel like dying
not that much?

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mock_execution](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mock_execution)

~~~
Ended
During a mock execution the victim actually believes they are about to die.

------
Shivetya
a whole country with the work ethic of a new business owner. while some may
loathe the idea as exploitation many nations go through their phase of putting
more into society than you take out. this usually ends when politicians start
amassing power and use promises of largess to keep it. it does alter a society
and I am curious if Asian cultures will be more resistant to it. (the other
thing power amassing politicians to exaggerate differences between all)

~~~
samastur
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_South_Korea](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_South_Korea)

------
maxerickson
I wonder if there is any connection to the scene in MASH.

------
narrator
Korea would be a great place to open up a sensory deprivation tank business.

------
PunchTornado
and here I am wasting my time on an open source project

------
someone_
How do they get wifi?

------
peter303
A cubicle is like that

------
Zigurd
Mitchell Jessen and Associates have successfully pivoted into management
consulting.

------
googletazer
They can also reuse the coffins for the people they kick out, but this time
nail them shut.

