

Twitter Helps Revive a Seedy San Francisco Neighborhood - danso
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/02/business/twitter-helps-revive-a-seedy-san-francisco-neighborhood.html?ref=technology&_r=0&pagewanted=all

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abalone
So glad the city did away with the stock option tax threat. That was added by
some dumb schmucks in the lull between the dot-com boom and this one, when
nobody was paying attention or doing new startups. No startup in their right
mind would choose a city that taxes stock options.

The reporting on this is rather poor. It characterizes this as an additional
"cost" or "loss" to the city, e.g. "Twitter tax break to cost far more than
estimates".[1]

But what's missing from the reports is that this component, the stock option
tax, is relatively new (2004) and has never been enforced. It's not that the
city is losing something they had. They never had it. It was a bad idea that
was slipped in during a down cycle when nobody understood or cared about the
implications.

I think Zynga calculated that they would end up paying more in local taxes
than they pay for their building itself.

[1]
[http://www.sfgate.com/technology/dotcommentary/article/Twitt...](http://www.sfgate.com/technology/dotcommentary/article/Twitter-
tax-break-to-cost-far-more-than-estimates-4929370.php)

~~~
awongh
OTOH it seems like a dumb move by the city to offer these tax breaks to
twitter in the first place. Were they really going to up and move to mountain
view? To save on payroll tax? I'm not sure what the precedence for something
like that happening is, but it seems highly unlikely.

~~~
jroseattle
The precedence is very real, and it's gone on for years. Companies will up and
relocate when it makes fiscal sense.

Boeing, for example, was headquartered in Seattle for decades -- very
established, entrenched locally, big production plants nearby. Chicago came
along and offered serious tax breaks if they would relo HQ. This isn't down
the road -- it's Seattle to Chicago, involving something like 1000 employees
and their families. Boeing took the deal and gained millions in tax
concessions.

At the time, Twitter did an evaluation of payroll & stock option taxes and
determined that it would be worth a lot of money to everyone (it's not just
the company, it's the people) if they have a shop outside SF geographic
boundaries. Pick up and move down the street? Yeah, easy choice.

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chipsy
The changes are generational, and to some extent preceded Twitter. If you went
back 10 years, even mid-day, there were visibly more angry young men standing
around. You didn't have the theater presence that is building up now, or the
pedestrian traffic coming from the direction of 5th - which used to mark a
clear boundary for mid-Market, but isn't nearly as much so now, as the retail
presence has made visible changes more recently, and the traffic patterns have
changed with it.

The inner parts of the TL aren't likely to change soon - as with the Mission
and SOMA areas, the old population is going to stick around even as the
neighborhood is changing around them. The gentrification of those other
neighborhoods had its genesis in the dot-com era, and some 15+ years on, it's
still nowhere near complete.

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xxpor
They're doing something very similar here in Seattle. I don't know the vacancy
rate, but they're moving into the Century Square building, which is at 3rd and
Pike, which as any Seattleite knows, is one of the shadier blocks downtown,
and has been resistant to being cleaned up.

Street View of the building:
[https://www.google.com/maps/preview#!q=century+square&data=!...](https://www.google.com/maps/preview#!q=century+square&data=!1m8!1m3!1d3!2d-122.337963!3d47.609932!2m2!1f54.33!2f136.2!4f75!2m7!1e1!2m2!1sRtLRdkxsDgrYkxv6-9mnow!2e0!5m2!1sRtLRdkxsDgrYkxv6-9mnow!2e0!4m10!1m9!4m8!1m3!1d281967!2d-122.3420645!3d47.6130284!3m2!1i1536!2i1258!4f13.1&fid=5)

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asveikau
I used to live in Seattle and heard people talk similarly about 3rd and Pike,
and I didn't get it. Used to pass by there all the time to get to the post
office on Union St. Never once felt unsafe. It is a lot like the other blocks
in the area. Largely unremarkable. (Though I do recall hearing about a random
shooting there once.)

In contrast, I find it much easier to have an unpleasant experience on 6th St.
in SF, a place where I've actually been physically threatened with violence. I
moved to SF thinking it was pretty culturally similar to Seattle, but there
was definitely a "getting used to more visible crime" adjustment period for
me. Seattle's CBD is pretty much Disneyland by comparison. :-)

~~~
jinushaun
It's all relative. Seattle is pretty much pleasantville compared to other
large cities. He'll, I grew up in South Seattle and don't even consider that
unsafe.

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jbraithwaite
It's going to take a lot more [1] before we see any real change in the Civic
Center / TL.

[1] - [http://www.modernluxury.com/san-francisco/story/arise-
tender...](http://www.modernluxury.com/san-francisco/story/arise-tenderloin)

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swang
Nothing has changed, people still go to bars on Folsom, not off Market. There
are still seedy ass looking people hanging around at night who may or may not
jump you while you wait for your MUNI bus that comes every 45 minutes.

~~~
marcosvm
Not really, Zendesk has being there since Aug 2011 and the block between 6th
and 5th is way better. I walk this block everyday and it changed, for good.

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swang
Twitter is between 9th and 10th street, so comparing the changes between
5th/6th isn't really describing what's happening around Twitter. The whole
article talks about some transformation that hasn't happened yet. 5th/6th
isn't really that safe anyways. Maybe during the day and when work gets out
around 5-6PM, but I wouldn't recommend staying out there after 8PM

~~~
marcosvm
I agree, what I actually meant is that 5th/6th got better over the past 1.5
years.

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justsayinstuff
What happened to all the seedy people?

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holyjaw
They're still there. Literally, on the street at the foot of the building. I
was there a month or so ago. It's... astonishing to see to say the least.

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bradleybuda
This article is probably a little too rosy, but Market has come a long way.
When we moved Meldium from Seattle to San Francisco, we decided to set up our
HQ between 6th and 7th right at the Civic Center and I've been very happy with
the decision (and we're not even eligible for the tax break). We have offices
in an historic and newly renovated building with a great view of the city at a
very reasonable monthly rent. There are excellent lunch and happy hour options
in SOMA and the Tenderloin, good (for SF at least :-)) coffee at Machine and
Sightglass, and we have a transit-friendly location for our employees in SF
and the East Bay, since we're right on top of Muni and BART stations. Come
join us!

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sbuccini
I honestly can't say that the Tenderloin is really coming around that much. I
don't live in the city anymore, so maybe it has changed since I left, but I
honestly would have never guessed Twitter worked in that building if I hadn't
known so myself. The area is still the same: dirty, lots of homeless, run-down
establishments, etc. Now there is just new construction going on.

I think we are going to have to wait a year or two until these towers are
finished before we know how receptive the tech workers will be to living in
such an area, and whether or not their presence will really spark
gentrification in an area that has resisted it thus far.

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i386
They may have improved the geographical area but not the people who lived
there. Twitter and other tech companies moving into "seedy neighbourhoods"
just moved people who need help and compassion to another part of the city.

~~~
gaius
The word you are looking for is: gentrification.

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drone
As someone who's recently been back on the market for office space, I find it
enlightening as to how much of the revenue and/or funding for a company has to
go for rents in SF. $58/SF is massive. Imagine a small startup that needs 1k
SQFT, pre-revenue paying nearly $5k a month on rent. Not to mention, that's
probably pre-triple-net load...

I was balking at the $30/SF Class-A rents in my city, and even grumbling that
perfect space for us was running $18/ft, because I had to get larger units
(2500 SQFT+). Puts it all in perspective =)

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brackin
WeWork Golden Gate in this neighbourhood is an amazing co-working building,
with 6 floors they're building out and affordable prices. With everything
you'd expect from coworking (beer on tap, fast wifi, big conference rooms,
etc) with private offices. We're based in there in Central Market and couldn't
recommend it more.

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mathrawka
s/Mid-Market/Tenderloin

Also, the only reason are the HUGE tax cuts the companies get:

 _... a city tax incentive that largely exempts them from city payroll taxes
if they relocate to the Mid-Market ..._

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acchow
Those tax cuts exclude 1455 Market Street, next to Twitter and where some high
profile companies are/will be located (Square, Uber).

[http://sf.curbed.com/archives/2011/03/16/midmarket_payroll_t...](http://sf.curbed.com/archives/2011/03/16/midmarket_payroll_tax_breaks_may_be_55m_less_painful.php)

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lukeholder
More likely they did it only for financial reasons.

