
$6.7M Available for Tech That Turns Captured Carbon into Useful Products - endswapper
https://www.environmentalleader.com/2016/08/26/6-7-million-available-for-tech-that-turns-captured-carbon-into-useful-products/
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diafygi
My background is in chemical engineering, but I'm now the co-founder of a
cleantech software company. Carbon capture is a shim that will never be
efficient because of chemical and thermodynamic limitations that cannot be
shortcut, though possibly it will still be required to meet carbon emission
goals. Fossil fuel is literally carbon captured CO2 that has been buried in
the ground for millions of years, which we pull up and burn for a positive
yield, so reversing that process is physically a negative yield.

Carbon capture is basically the equivalent of running nested virtual machines.
Say you're running Ubuntu 16.04 inside VMware, which is running on Windows 10,
which itself is running inside VirtualBox on a Ubuntu 16.04 host. You still
can do the things you need inside that inner Ubuntu system, but there's a ton
of overhead, and you already have Ubuntu running as the top host. The only
reason you'd do that is if the Windows VM was your starting point, you were
still running many native apps in Windows, and you need to get the Ubuntu app
working yesterday.

This is basically the equivalent to carbon capture. We've built a ton of
infrastructure off of pulling it out and burning it for energy, so until we
port all of that infrastructure over to non-carbon sources (internal
combustion-->EVs, coal-->nuclear/solar/wind, etc.), we're basically stuck
inside an intermediate system. Unfortunately, the planet is warming so quickly
that we have to consider booting another VM to shim some fixes now while we
port everything over.

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bhickey
> reversing that process is physically a negative yield.

How energetically costly is direct atmospheric gas capture? Does sequestering
flue gases look much better?

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diafygi
Well, from an engineering point of view, energetic cost of capture is one the
inputs, not the end goal. Overall cost per unit capture is the end goal. So
high energetic costs can be offset by low manufacturing costs if it results in
a net overall lower cost.

Anyway, yes, direct atmospheric capture is much much more energetically costly
than flue gas capture. CO2 in air is 0.04% and in flue gas is 8-15%. Depending
on the capture technology and the storage medium, you don't have to build
nearly as much infrastructure if you tap into the 8-15% CO2 flue gas stream.
Atmospheric carbon capture is literally what plants do, and the manufacturing
costs for them is basically plant seeds...done. Or hell, they do that
naturally anyway, so it's really just stop-clearing-forests and you've gotten
your carbon capture for free.

So even though atmospheric carbon capture is way more energetically costly,
the manufacturing costs are basically zero, and plants are currently the
cheapest solution. That doesn't stop lots of research going into trying to
find something better. We found cheaper solar energy with silicon over plants
(cost per watt on the grid from photovoltaics is less than biomass), so we may
find something cheaper than plants for carbon capture, too.

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endswapper
Here is an example of a current, commercial technology: newlight.com

"At Newlight, we believe that the most sustainable way to reduce the amount of
carbon in the air is to use greenhouse gas emissions as a resource for the
production of commercially useful materials that out-compete oil-based
materials."

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pcrh
I wonder what advantages captured carbon as a raw material would have over the
numerous other sources of carbon?

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GunboatDiplomat
Mostly that it removes carbon from the atmosphere, I would think.

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endswapper
Exactly, and technology that is inexpensive enough to compete with other
sources of carbon would have a massive economic, environment and social
impact.

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madaxe_again
Meanwhile, £6bn a year in subsidies available for oil and gas production in
the UK.

It's like we just don't care.

~~~
sevenless
Economic growth: it's the altar we're sacrificing the world on.

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DougWebb
Here's a plan, off the top of my head: capture the CO2 in the exhaust, use
some of the power from the plant to freeze it into dry ice. Feed the heat back
into the power plant somehow so it's not wasted. Take the dry ice and ship it
to the poles, and bury it. If there's enough, and it's packed under dense snow
and water ice, it won't sublimate as quickly and will help keep the snow and
water ice frozen.

$6.7M is probably not enough to even attempt this, even if it could actually
make a difference. Which it probably couldn't.

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abdcef
Agriculture?

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randomdata
I recall 15-20 years ago some people were experimenting with capturing the
tractor's exhaust and applying it into the soil that it was working, but it
didn't seem to go anywhere.

