
Medications that change who we are - daveytea
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200108-the-medications-that-change-who-we-are
======
aphextron
>"It turns out many ordinary medications don’t just affect our bodies – they
affect our brains."

I feel like perpetuating this mindset is the ultimate sin of modern psychiatry
and the entire industry of psychiatric pharmaceuticals - your brain _is_ your
body. It's not some special thing that sits apart from it. It is an integral
part of the whole, no different than your kidneys or liver. People think they
can take an antidepressant and it just "works" on their brain somehow. It
affects absolutely everything.

~~~
kerkeslager
I think the problem goes at least as far back as Plato and the allegory of the
cave. Plato spread this concept that there was a difference between the body
and mind or soul, and Western culture has never really recovered from the
stupidity of that idea.

There's really no evidence or justification for it. Your mind and your body
are the same thing.

~~~
seisvelas
My Python code ultimately runs on a circuit, but it feels lacking to say that
my program _is_ the circuitry. The program itself only has meaning inside of
my mind, and in fact could exist equally well on paper. It exists
_conceptually_ even if it never manifests physically. So where do concepts
like this exist, given that they don't exist as matter? What do we mean when
we say that something like 1+1=2 is true - that that truth exists - and would
exist even if there wasn't any matter to have 1 and 1 of?

The more you look at it, the more it looks like truths and ideas are even
realer than the material world. After all, the only thing we know of the
material world is what we experience of it in our mind. That was Plato's
point, that the material world is a shadow of the real, immaterial world of
thoughts, ideas, and truths.

Similar argument patterns permeate most ancient philosophies. The meme is that
mind is the ultimate reality, of which the materialistic worldview is a
surprisingly fragile inverse.

~~~
kerkeslager
> My Python code ultimately runs on a circuit, but it feels lacking to say
> that my program is the circuitry. The program itself only has meaning inside
> of my mind, and in fact could exist equally well on paper. It exists
> conceptually even if it never manifests physically. So where do concepts
> like this exist, given that they don't exist as matter? What do we mean when
> we say that something like 1+1=2 is true - that that truth exists - and
> would exist even if there wasn't any matter to have 1 and 1 of?

You're claiming that these concepts don't exist as matter, but you've actually
described how it exists in matter. Moving the program to paper just changes
the matter from silicon and metal to paper and ink. You're saying it never
manifests physically while describing its physical manifestation.

Even if the program exists only in your mind, all that means is that the
physical manifestation is neurons/synapses instead of silicon/metal or
paper/ink.

I won't claim to know completely how the human brain works, and I think it's
unlikely that anyone completely understands everything. But it's unreasonable
to claim that anything we don't completely understand the physical
manifestation of must not have a physical manifestation. That's just the God
of the Gaps argument[1] repackaged into a "Mind of the Gaps" argument. If you
are defining the mind is every thought and mental process that we don't
understand, then the mind is an ever-shrinking phenomena that slowly
disappears as we apply the scientific method. In that case, I think we have a
better word for that than "the mind": we typically call that "ignorance".

> Similar argument patterns permeate most ancient philosophies. The meme is
> that mind is the ultimate reality, of which the materialistic worldview is a
> surprisingly fragile inverse.

This is unsurprising, given that ancient philosophers lacked even basic
scientific knowledge. The materialistic worldview seems fragile when you know
next-to-nothing of the material world. We might draw the same conclusions as
them if we only look at the evidence they had, but it would be foolish to only
look at the evidence they had, when we have access to, for example, modern
neuroscience. It would be extraordinarily improbable for people who believed
fire came from phlogiston to come to the same conclusions about the nature of
the mind, as people with access to decades of magnetic resonance imaging of
the brain.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps)

------
sugarkjube
Definitely 100% true, first hand experience here.

I had mild medication prescribed for regulating blood pressure. Supposedly
without psychological side effects. I found out a year later that it
dramatically affected my personality. More or less like in the article, but in
the opposite way.

The frightening thing is, I didn't know !!!

I found out a year later when temporarily stopping the medication, my kids
started to make remarks, alluding on my changed behaviour. Only that moment I
started to realize what happened.

Also affected my profesional live: I heard years later that people / collegues
had noticed (but never mentioned it). I'm pretty sure it impacted my career.
All without me knowing. For medication without any known psychological
effects.

I took this medication for a year without realizing anything was wrong, that
will probably also be the case for other people, and I'm pretty sure in many
cases psychological side effects won't show up in clinical trials.

I'm pretty sure if you take anything like anti anxiety / depressants, psycho-
pharmaceuticals, or just anything with known side effects, the impact must be
dramatic.

When I found out, discussed it with (several) docters : one said "impossible",
another "interesting, tell me more". It assume most doctors are clueless here.
When you break a leg, they can set it and it heals. When you have a headache,
they look in their book to see if there is a pill. But anything out of the
ordinary, it may be hard to find good medical help.

~~~
PragmaticPulp
> I found out a year later that it dramatically affected my personality. More
> or less like in the article, but in the opposite way.

So the blood pressure medication made you more calm? You didn’t specify the
medication they prescribed, but that’s a common effect of certain types of
blood pressure medication. In fact, certain blood pressure medications are
prescribed off-label for their calming properties. One blood pressure
medication is even approved for also treating ADHD (Guanfacine).

If you find that your doctor doesn’t acknowledge your side effects or
dismisses your complaints, it’s time to get a second opinion or rotate
doctors. I’ve never had a problem with my doctors not believing me.

> I'm pretty sure if you take anything like anti anxiety / depressants,
> psycho-pharmaceuticals, or just anything with known side effects, the impact
> must be dramatic.

In my experience, the good doctors are well aware that all medications come
with side effects. The best doctors strive to minimize medication exposure for
this reason. Ironically, many patients disapprove of this because it feels
like the doctors are withholding treatments, even when it may be the best
choice for the patient.

The most common example is people demanding antibiotics for common colds.
Doctors know antibiotics won’t help and that they come with significant risks,
but they also know that patients might leave a bad review if they leave empty
handed.

In the case of psychiatric medications: Yes, the differences can be
significant. However, the side effects are worth the tradeoff for alleviating
serious psychiatric issues. Being naturally healthy is obviously preferable to
being medicated with side effects, but that’s not the choice that patients are
making in these cases. Instead, they’re choosing between continuing to be
unhealthy without medication or dealing with some side effects in order to
relieve some of their pain.

This is also why many people get stuck in cycles of discontinuing their
psychiatric medications. Someone who achieves remission from depression with
anti-depressant medication might think that they don’t need the medication now
that they’re “better”, and when all they can see are the side effects. This
leads them to discontinue, which often results in relapse of the underlying
disorder if not managed with the help of their doctors.

~~~
crimsonalucard
Blood pressure medicine does make you more calm and this is known anecdotally
among the medical community.

I know this because I know of medical students taking it before giving a
speech. Literally the medicine is well known for making you perfectly calm.

You know that magic pill that can get rid of your approach anxiety? I hear,
this is it, though I never tried. I'm wondering if anyone more in the "know"
can comment on it.

~~~
Terretta
_> You know that magic pill that can get rid of your approach anxiety ...
wondering if anyone more in the "know" can comment on it._

BLUF (bottom line up front):

Try biofeedback to regulate level of emotional arousal before an anticipated
stressor or critical decision or event.

COMMENTARY

You may be referring to “Propranolol”

 _“Propranolol is occasionally used to treat performance anxiety... benefits
appear similar to benzodiazepines in panic disorder with potentially less side
effects such as addiction. Experimentation has been conducted in other
psychiatric areas... Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and specific
phobias...”_

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propranolol](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propranolol)

It is a beta blocker:

 _”Beta blockers (beta-blockers, β-blockers, etc.) are a class of medications
that are predominantly used to manage abnormal heart rhythms... also widely
used to treat high blood pressure (hypertension), although they are no longer
the first choice...“_

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_blocker](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_blocker)

HYPOTHESIS

When taken before something like a Ted Talk, perhaps what’s happening is pre-
treatment of not anxiety but _indicative symptoms_ of anxiety, damping your
biofeedback signals.

Perhaps it’s not doing anything direct for your anxiety, rather damping the
racing heartbeat and increased blood pressure you usually experience in
anticipation of stress (PTSD style association), and without that biofeedback
sensor, your metacognition of anxiety doesn’t ramp up as much.

No citations, pure anecdata from 5 years in hedge fund sector.

CONTRAINDICATIONS

More than a few contra-indications:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propranolol#Contraindications](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propranolol#Contraindications)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_blocker#Contraindications](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_blocker#Contraindications)

ALTERNATIVE: BIO-FEEDBACK / MINDFULNESS

Bio-feedback mindfulness exercises are likely to be able to have the same
effect after practice, not just in general, but in the immediate short term
preceding an anticipated stress:

 _”Financial decision making : Financial traders use biofeedback as a tool for
regulating their level of emotional arousal in order to make better financial
decisions. The technology company Philips and the Dutch bank ABN AMRO
developed a biofeedback device for retail investors based on a galvanic skin
response sensor.... financial decision makers can learn how to effectively
regulate their emotions using heart rate measurements.”_

 _”Stress reduction : A randomized study by Sutarto et al. assessed the effect
of resonant breathing biofeedback (recognize and control involuntary heart
rate variability) among manufacturing operators; depression, anxiety and
stress significantly decreased.”_

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biofeedback#Financial_decision...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biofeedback#Financial_decision_making)

~~~
sugarkjube
Thank you for all this detailed feedback, this actually helps a lot in
understanding.

 _" I suspect it’s not doing anything direct for your anxiety, rather damping
the racing heartbeat and increased blood pressure you usually experience in
anticipation of stress (PTSD style association), and without that biofeedback
sensor, your metacognition of anxiety doesn’t ramp up as much."_

That's it. Heartbeat is gone, anxiety is still there. Also the "adrenaline
rush" is gone.

------
spodek
Let's also consider the other direction -- how fresh vegetables and fruit,
plus whole grains, beans, nuts, seeds, and herbs improve mood, behavior,
resilience. Throw in some vigorous exercise, and for most people, drugs can't
do better, without the drugs' side effects and cost.

For many people, switching from a standard American diet to largely those
ingredients would register as changing who they are.

I just finished reading a chapter on it in Dr. Michael Greger's _How Not to
Die_ \-- the chapter is "How Not to Die From Suicidal Depression" with plenty
of footnotes to primary sources.

~~~
maxerickson
_Let 's also consider the other direction -- how fresh vegetables and fruit,
plus whole grains, beans, nuts, seeds, and herbs improve mood, behavior,
resilience. Throw in some vigorous exercise, and for most people, drugs can't
do better, without the drugs' side effects and cost._

If you look at health outcomes, this is sort of obviously not true. I don't
mean the health benefits of the things you mention, I mean the "for most
people" part.

Of course I realize that you are engaged in advocacy. I think it probably
isn't good advocacy, people should be thinking about (and talking to their
doctor about) the best way to approach their current health status, not
imagining that they are going to eat well and get lots of vigorous exercise.

~~~
jdcaron
Are you really trying to say that promoting a nutritious diet supported by
physical activity doesn't work for "most people"? You call that engaged
advocacy?

What he claimed is true and backed by multiple studies. Doing a healthy dose
of physical activity with a healthy diet can only be beneficial, no downside
whatsoever. It's quite underrated I guess. Too many humans wish for a magic
pill, they delude themselves into thinking that it must be better than healthy
living habits, since it's more modern. People are looking for the lazy fix.

~~~
lanstin
What he said is imagining you will start eating well and exercising is rather
far from eating well and exercising. I know of no intentional changes that are
less successful than trying to eat healthy for the rest of life. Even smokers
have better luck with quitting. (Talking long term here - eating better for
six months isn’t that useful).

------
ChrisMarshallNY
As the article mentions, this is a complicated, not-simple type of thing to
filter out.

If it were anything other than the BBC reporting it, I would probably have a
raised eyebrow.

One of the things that makes it difficult to develop a causative link, is
things like someone may suddenly develop symptoms of heart disease or high
blood pressure, but they are also going through a personally stressful time,
and have taken to exercising less, worrying, and sitting around eating
popcorn.

It may seem as if some medication or practice is the cause, but exercising
less, and munching salt can throw the curve. Being worried about the future
(or our own health -the reason we’re on the meds) can also have a fairly
profound effect on things.

Animal testing will usually control for stuff, but real life is messy.

For example, alcohol is known to interact with all kinds of compounds. Rats
don’t drink, so, unless the researchers deliberately introduce alcohol (in
realistic dosage) in their regimen, they can be quite surprised, when
unanticipated things start happening in human trials.

I’ve heard of unanticipated results manifesting, because a symptom only
appeared within a certain dosage window, and testing had used extreme dosages.

------
noir_lord
I take gabapentin for a spinal issue (nerve damage in my spine) and it has a
drastic and noticeable effect, I'm naturally quiet and introverted but when I
take the higher prescribed dose that changes radically, I become outgoing and
talkative, I have more confidence and I seem to be more creative (though that
could just be the reduction in pain).

It definitely alters my mood and I can feel it happen.

~~~
sebazzz
That's essentially what MDMA does too.

~~~
cc81
It is quite different than MDMA in practice though I think and even despite
its name it does not bind to GABA I would still more liken it to the
positive/social feelings of alcohol than mdma (don't mix alcohol and
gabapentin though, it can be dangerous).

------
bemmu
I've had trouble falling asleep for a long time, and at some point years ago
started taking ambien for it. It took a long time to realize just how strong
an impact it was having on me (could write a long blog post about it).
Stopping wasn't easy, but now year+ later I'm basically back to normal, and
feel like I have superpowers compared to the time when I was still on it.

~~~
bravura
a) how often and for how long, and what impact?

and

b) yes, you should write a blog post on it

------
LeonM
This is basically the story of my mother.

About 15 years ago she was suffering from a panic disorder. Instead of trying
to help her, her doctor prescribed a fairly high dose of benzodiazepines and
be done with it.

These 'medicine' only made matters worse and changed her behavior radically.
She became very closed up, never wanting to do anything, never leaving the
house and always finding excuses not having to do anything. The stuff is also
terrible for her memory, so she can't really remember anything since she has
been taken these pills.

The worst part is that these medicine are highly addictive, and we have now
passed to point where we had to accept that my mother will be on these pills
for the rest of her life.

~~~
complex1314
Highly recommend not giving up on getting off it. My grandmother thought she
needed it to sleep for many years. But finally, after pressure from the family
(several who are health care professionals), the doctor took her off it. She
became so much better, even her sleep improved! Having worked as a health care
professional myself, the rule was maximum 3 weeks, only for temporary
treatment, long term need to find other solutions. Always some exceptions but
then everything else had (or should have) been tried.

------
elil17
I’d be curious to hear the experiences of people who take/have taken some of
these drugs such as L-dopa. With alcohol, I feel _different_ but I don’t feel
_like a different person._ Is it like that, or is there a larger feeing of
difference?

~~~
norepinephrine
I've took various antidepressant (SSRI/SNRI/SARI) medications over the course
of my life and some minor & major tranquilizers. Some alone, some in
combination. Heck, during some time I even mixed them with psychoactive
instances like LSD/amphetamines.

I doubt that it changed who I am, but it changed on how I act. Well, of course
it depends on definition of who we are to start with. They certainly affect on
how do you feel and how do you think, but when effects wear off, you typically
return to your former ways. Maybe with new thoughts or new look at your life.
But that's it.

I continue to see those kind of meds as a mere tools, which you can use to
alter your thinking for a period of time to get yourself a fresh look at
ordinary things. I think that therapeutic effect exists here only if you get
some realization about your former ways.

Some meds made me worry less about my life when I've realized that worrying
doesn't actual solve anything, it just makes you feel worse.

Some made me more emphatic towards people when I've realized that everyone is
exactly as same as me, just with different life story.

~~~
rantwasp
the experiences you have make who you are. if a drug changes the way you
behave it will change how you experience things. so depending to what you are
exposed to, it can definitely change who you are.

an extreme example for environmental factors radically changing people’s
behavior is lead poisoning.

------
goblin89
Tangentially (and anecdotally), not long ago I seem to have contracted what
seems like a flu (or the like), and I remember feeling very healthy, social
and unusually well—almost high—most of the day right until my brain went foggy
and fever started.

In hindsight, I did not behave quite like myself that day, especially
considering I felt somewhat overworked the preceding week.

This prompted me to first draw the analogy with taking and withdrawing from a
substance, and then to imagine a possibility of some future human-made flu-
like virus that preserves the incubation stage effects and lacks the
“conventional” symptoms. Like a contagious mood boost, contractable for free
by air!

~~~
thaumasiotes
> This prompted me to first draw the analogy with taking and withdrawing from
> a substance

The substance has no goals.

The flu specifically wants you to be social.

~~~
goblin89
The action of taking the former is probably in alignment with _some_ goals
(even if potentially short-sighted), while contracting the latter alters your
behavior so that it can spread more widely in accordance with the goals of its
own DNA.

But yeah, I didn’t think my analogy through further than surface symptoms.

------
cassowary37
Ironic that folks who work in CNS drug discovery spend much of their time
worrying about how to get our molecules /into/ the brain... and less energy
thinking about keeping non-CNS meds out. For what it's worth, though, these
'off-target' CNS effects have also prompted a lot of enthusiasm for
repurposing existing FDA-approved drugs for new indications, since their
safety is already established.

------
truth_be_told
I have long wondered about this. In the Asian world, traditional Systems of
Medicine focus on "holistic" treatment and the general public often calls
Western Medicine, "Allopathy with side-effects". I had intuitively felt that
these medicines must have an overall effect on behaviour which may always not
be obvious to the observer unless the difference between the before and after
were stark and noticeable.

We really need a lot more research on this aspect of all commonly used
medicines. A lot of our mood-swings, irritability, anger, anti-social
behaviour etc. might be explained by this.

~~~
hhas01
“In the Asian world, traditional Systems of Medicine focus on "holistic"
treatment”

[rant on]

I believe the term you’re looking for here is “fabulist bullshit”.

“the general public often calls Western Medicine, "Allopathy with side-
effects"”

Aaaand… No, it doesn’t. SCAM calls it that. Which is ironic, as “Allopathy” is
a term coined by Hahnemann to mean “Everything BUT Homeopathy”, and that was
in a day when “Western Medicine” was itself rank quackery still laboring under
Galen’s “Four Humors” nonsense. Thus Chiropracty, Reiki, TCM, Acupuncture, etc
are all “Allopathy” too.

Conversely, what you so casually misnomer “Western Medicine” (the term itself
is borderline racist) is just “Medicine That Works†”.

(†“Within Limits”, as any sci fule kno.)

I mean, the only really significant difference between Traditional Chinese
Medicine’s explanation of disease and Galen’s is that TCM believes in _five_
humors while Galenites believed in only four. [Insert Emo Philips/Picard joke
here.]

Otherwise “Chinese/Eastern Medicine” is the same mix of ungrounded herbalism
and bloodletting that stalled out western healthcare for 2000 years. Until the
Arab/Persian world, during its all-to-brief scientific golden age, came up
with the brilliant idea that one should actually _test_ one’s beliefs to find
out if they’re bullshit or not… a process that Renaissance Europe finally
distilled into modern scientific method 500 years later and determining Galen
was full of it shortly after that.

..

Of course, getting the actual institutions to change took a lot longer; it
wasn’t until Pasteur gave us a _working_ model of disease that Galen’s
bollocks and its attendant “worse than doing nothing at all” so-called
treatments were finally buried down a very deep hole.

Germ Theory gave us sanitation, vaccination, and surgical hygene. Untested
herbalism was usurped by pharmacognosy, modern chemistry, and reliable mass
manufacturing. And so on.

Alas, China was been quite so lucky. Thanks to Mao and his vast “barefoot
doctor” scam (which got around the problem of not having enough real doctors
or money to provide everyone else with medicine that worked), TCM/Acupuncture
is still around, not least as the CPC is now selling it for export as much as
for use at home.

Incidentally, Mao himself (like most wealthier Chinese nowadays) had no truck
with that homegrown crap and happily availed himself of your “Western
Medicine”, thankyouverymuch. (You might want to take note of that.)

Incidentally #2, just as TCM was, and is, badly-tested herbalism marketing
often poor-quality and fraudulent product, pre-Mao acupuncture was really just
Galenic-style bloodletting sticking bloody great bamboo trocars into people.
Worse, it had almost (rightly) died out until Mao reinvented it its modern
form using fine steel needles, bad sterile practice, and total Qi bollox.
“Distracting the patient while nature all does the work” as Voltaire used to
say.

Incidentally #3—and considering that western researchers invested decades in
figuring out how to reliably blind acupuncture studies before finally
producing results showing it no better than placebo—every acupuncture study
out of China is still positively glowing. Someone recently posted a FP link
regarding China’s massive ongoing medical research crisis; I’m sure you can
dig it up if you want.

..

TL;DR: You can take your “holistic treatment” and “traditional Systems of
Medicine” and stick ’em where the pathologist’s light does shine, because that
is where they all belong.

[rant off]

\--

Real medicine does in fact study and treat the whole person. Unfortunately,
it’s also a victim of its own and industrial nations’ success. General
practices and hospitals are slammed with demand, increasingly with inevitable
diseases of very old age (since so few of us die young now) and diseases of
sedentary urban lifestyles.

And while doctors can tell us to eat less and exercise more till they’re blue
in the face, they can’t make any of us _do_ it; so it’s not surprising things
like statins get widely (over?) prescribed as a workaround for our fat lazy
butts.

I’ve no doubt too modern medicine desperately wishes more public would
understand that _all_ Medicines (that is, pharmacologically-active compounds)
have _multiple_ Effects; and that the only meaningful distinction is between
Effects that are _advantageous_ in treating a patient for a particular
condition and Effects that are _disadvantageous_ in that same patient. We
commonly call the latter “side-effects” [not counting intolerance and
allergies], but that’s misleading.

For instance, aspirin (descended from willow bark) is commonly used both as an
NSAID _and_ as an anticoagulant; thus what is a “side-effect” in pain patients
is the _therapy_ in those with blood disorders. (And vice-versa. And, of
course, aspirin’s other common effect of giving you stomach ulcers isn’t a
benefit in anyone. Although if you think aspirin is bad, just try original
willow bark instead.)

Thus, we should not be surprised that modern pharmaceuticals have multiple
effects across a wide range of biochemical and physiological systems; if
anything, it’s a minor miracle they don’t have way more unwanted effects.
Alas, familiarty does breed laxness, if not contempt, even in scientific and
medical professionals; so it can never be re-stated enough that education,
awareness, and due dilligence are essential to keeping that system operating
as well as it can.

Think of it like this: Medicine [which works] is just a rolling bug-patching
process of the most heinously complicated, tightly-coupled, under-documented
Big Ball Of Mud known to man, and proceed accordingly. And that even that
thing we call “self” is just a synthesized fiction, the product of countless
biochemical and electrical interactions constantly occurring in just one[-ish]
of numerous intricately interconnected organs, which together make up “Us”.

\--

Dear Dog, I really need a drink now. Never been so glad I that crashed out of
premed and landed up in software dev instead. :)

~~~
truth_be_told
WTH ? That is a nice rant but one with some validity :-)

First see my other responses in this thread so i don't have to repeat myself.

>Real medicine does in fact study and treat the whole person.

In Theory; Current practice has all but forgotten this. That is why many
Physicians themselves are looking at Yoga, Meditation, TCM, Ayurveda etc. to
supplement their treatment.

>Medicine [which works] is just a rolling bug-patching process of the most
heinously complicated, tightly-coupled, under-documented Big Ball Of Mud known
to man

Somewhat True but there are also multiple models/architectures within it all
of which gives us a framework to hang everything else off of i.e. there is a
method within the madness.

The point is not to throw away centuries of empirical evidence on what has
worked regardless of theoretical models used to explain them. Two different
examples, a) The importance of quieting/calming the mind using Meditation
independent of any religious connotations. b) The importance attached to
Turmeric which has been validated today by identification of the Curcumin
active ingredient.

~~~
hhas01
“In Theory; Current practice has all but forgotten this. That is why many
Physicians themselves are looking at Yoga, Meditation, TCM, Ayurveda etc. to
supplement their treatment.”

Eh, no. If many Physicians are looking at TCM, Ayurveda, etc†, it’s because
there’s piles of Money and Ego in it. Shock: some <koff> physicians really do
miss the Good Old Days of “Doctor-as-God” Paternalistic Medicine, and are only
too delighted to bring it all back for their neurotic wealthy patients who
miss it too.

“The point is not to throw away centuries of empirical evidence on what has
worked regardless of theoretical models used to explain them.’

Centuries of “empirical evidence”?

Get. Tae. Fuck. And take your Appeals to Antiquity and Special Pleading
bollocks, and stick them up your ass with all the other balls that Gwyneth
Paltrow and Alex Jones and the CPC are flogging this week too.

Because I wasn’t born yesterday.

Unlike you.

[https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/?s=bait+and+switch&category...](https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/?s=bait+and+switch&category_name=&submit=Search)

[https://archive.org/details/thirtyyearsinmo00chrigoog](https://archive.org/details/thirtyyearsinmo00chrigoog)

[https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-
families...](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-
families/health-news/woman-turmeric-injection-dies-alternative-therapy-san-
diego-iv-curcumin-a7653531.html)

\--

†I exclude Yoga and Meditation here because (ignoring any woo-woo gateway
bullshit) those are essentially Exercise and Relaxation, which along with Diet
are standard mainstream medical advice. Only real difference being that
Medicine says “Eat right and exercise, or you will Dieeeee!‡”, whereas AltMed
says “Eat right and exercise _and_ stick our super-magical expensive coffee up
your ass, and you will have an orgasm in your pants!”

‡Okay, it doesn’t really say “Die”, but that’s what neurotic high-maintenance
muppets hear anyway; which is what makes them such suckers for the AltMed con.
And I really wouldn’t care about that because that’s their funeral, except
that they make others dead too.

~~~
truth_be_told
Are you just an ass or are you just trying to get a rise out of people? It is
hard to have a conversation when your tone is combative rather than rational.

You are trying to employ the "Gish Gallop" and throw all sorts of irrelevant
noise to muddy the waters. What do Gwyneth Paltrow, Alex Jones etc. have to do
with Medicine?. If you think physicians are looking at Ayurveda/TCM/Yoga etc.
only for the money/ego/fad then you really don't know what you are talking
about. Don't waste my time with nonsense.

You are also cherry-picking articles with sensational headlines eg. your last
link about usage of Turmeric is an article which is very clearly sheer
stupidity and nothing to do with the medicine itself.

Here is something for your edification;

Efficacy of Curcumin(Turmeric) -
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5664031/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5664031/)

Read the book "Herbal Medicine: Biomolecular and Clinical Aspects" for
scientific research on a variety of traditional herbs. Centuries of "Empirical
Data" is what is being put to test to identify efficacy. This is the proper
scientific method and not the offhand dismissal that you seem to embrace.

You are also very wrong about "Yoga and Meditation" being merely "Exercise and
Relaxation". Read the following;

* A Physiological Handbook for Teachers of Yogasana

* Zen & the Brain

That should hold you for a while.

------
Spoppys
It's a worrying thought. My dad has become much less empathetic and more
bitter over the past decade. I'd assumed it might have been the pain that was
at least partially responsible, now I'm wondering if its actually the
painkillers

~~~
radmarshallb
Chronic pain will chip away even the kindest person's ability to care about
anything else.

------
davedx
Wow, turns out there's a lot of studies into e.g. paracetamol out there too.
e.g.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31523834](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31523834)

More here:
[https://twitter.com/autismepi/status/1214388671752916992/pho...](https://twitter.com/autismepi/status/1214388671752916992/photo/1)

~~~
hprotagonist
_There were few associations with behavioural or neurocognitive outcomes after
age 7-8 years, whether reported by the mother or the teacher.

If paracetamol use in mid-to-late pregnancy has an adverse effect on child
neurocognitive outcome, it appears to mainly relate to the pre-school period.
It is important that these results be tested using other datasets or
methodologies before assuming that they are causal._

translation: "we studied it and no, tylenol doesn't cause autism; calm your
pants."

------
tonyedgecombe
_The world is in the midst of a crisis of over-medication, with the US alone
buying up 49,000 tonnes of paracetamol every year – equivalent to about 298
paracetamol tablets per person_

Shocking, I knew it was bad but this is madness.

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
I wonder how much of that paracetemol is actually consumed? Maybe a lot of it
just sits on a shelf and expires?

~~~
PragmaticPulp
That was my first thought. My local Costco sells 1000 tablets of Paracetamol
for $8.49.

I've bought several thousand pills of OTC pain relievers in the past year to
keep a bottle in my car, my office, at home, and so on. I've only taken maybe
10 pills over the course of a year.

I do agree that the country is over-medicating in general, though. The focus
on customer satisfaction and patient review scores for doctors has created bad
incentives for doctors to "do something" by prescribing pills instead of
pushing for natural interventions (diet changes, exercise, reducing screen
time, going to bed earlier)

------
dm03514
When I was younger, I believed that my spirit and thoughts and personality
were somehow separate from my body. Like something uniquely me that was put in
my body to animate it.

As I get older I began to think the opposite; that our thoughts,
personalities, and everything original about us are a product of our physical
composition and brain structure.

I began to really notice this after reading Principles where Ray Dalio
observes that the way people think and approach and solve problems are largely
fixed. I notice this in myself and the people around me.

There was a sort of inflection point for me after getting my first massage. My
body was completely relaxed, resulting in my mind being completely relaxed.
After the massage I went to a trader joes in columbia maryland during a
saturday. This trader joes is a logistic nightmare that always stresses me
out, so much so that I would usually avoid going during peak shopping. But
this time I was completely unbothered, nothing about the experience was
bothering, my thoughts were completely at ease. At that moment I realized that
it wasn't stress making me tight, it was tightness making me stressed. The
dependency was completely backwards from the way I thought. Being self
centered i thought my thoughts informing my physical, but it was actually my
physical causing my thoughts.

I have genetically high blood pressure, and I have to consume low sodium in
order to keep it under control. While I was learning this and my blood
pressure was high, I was literally angry about everything. Road rage,
meltdowns at home, being short and explosive with my wife and son. I thought
it was stress or affect from work I thought it was thoughts/personality ->
body. As soon as I experimented with reducing sodium, getting exercise and my
blood pressure dropped, my mood completely rounded out and fixed itself. IT
was actually my body -> thoughts.

The same thing happens with hiking spending time outside. I used to feel like
a connected, or spiritual relationship with the outdoors. I enjoyed drinking
and camping, I thought that there was a spiritual relationship with the
outdoors (personality -> body) when, once again, it's actually just physical
-> personality, dopamine is released, my blood pressure probably dropped my
thoughts became more relaxed, my body was tired and relaxed from hiking.

I think that we really are a lot less conscious than we think we are, and that
the way we think, our personalities, and pretty much everything about us is
largely predetermined by our physical composition. I think we're just more
complicated animals and our personalities are just a response to physical
input and reactions.

~~~
elwell
I think it goes both ways. The physical body affects the
thoughts/emotions/personality, and the manifestations of the
mind/fallacies/affects affect the physical body.

Regarding spirit, I still believe that that is somehow separate. It's one of
the things though that I'm not sure can be proven in the physical realm (e.g.,
brain) to an undeniable degree.

------
asimovfan
Everything that happens to us changes who we are. Every conversation we make.
Everything we think. We are not the same person in any given moment.

Also, because we are shaped by the things that happen to us, we are literally
actually not ourselves but rather "everything else".

~~~
rantwasp
yes and this would not be contested. the same way we are not surprised when
the drugs we take have the intended effect. this goes wrong is when the side
effects are unexpected or undesirable. as a society we are conditioned to be
entitled and to believe everything has an easy/quick fix.

------
droithomme
_> with the US alone buying up 49,000 tonnes of paracetamol every year –
equivalent to about 298 paracetamol tablets per person_

Commonly sold as the brand Tylenol. How is it possible that the average across
the US population is nearly one per day, the entire year? Max dose is 3900mg
per day. Tylenol is not recommended for children with fevers as it can have
bad side effects (Reye's Syndrome). More popular than aspirin perhaps as less
risk of ulcers. Not as safe as Advil/ibuprofen. Even for people regularly
taking pain meds, not all will be on paracetamol. Those taking it every day
(perhaps 5% of the population?) must be taking 10-20 tablets a day?

 _> – and the average American consuming $1,200 worth of prescription
medications over the same period._

I know there are people taking pills that cost tens or hundreds of thousands,
but this is still a pretty amazing average number across the population. This
year I spent just over $100 on meds and that was probably one of the most med-
intensive years of my life. Most years I have spent perhaps $10 for one round
of antibiotics and $2 on advil, which I buy a $6 bottle every 3 years or so.
So under $20. I wonder if the numbers are significantly less for most other
countries.

~~~
detaro
Wonder at what rate that stuff gets bought and not used, either by
institutions or consumers, but it's probably only a small part.

~~~
droithomme
Hey that's actually a really good point. First aid kits, hospitals, etc. Could
half of it simply be trashed?

------
hrt_throw
I am very curious about how transgender HRT affects personality. In a sense,
HRT is _supposed_ to change who one is, but the personality changes people
undergo on it seem underappreciated and not really understood or studied
clinically. At least I have not been able to find a published study
specifically about about how HRT changes personality. I think not all of it
can be attributed to decreased gender dysphoria or people "coming out of their
shell" and being able to live and socialize as who they want to be after
transition.

If I had to make a $100 bet today on what future research will find, I would
wager that

1\. FtM HRT reduces Big Five neuroticism despite _increasing_ aggression. The
effect is permanent and persists after the person's "second puberty" induced
by HRT is over. It affects beliefs about how society should function. To a
degree of approximation, it makes transmen more conservative or right-wing
than they were before the treatment.

2\. MtF HRT does _not_ have the opposite effect to the above (but it may, and
probably does, have other effects). Edit: The opposite effect on neuroticism
and sociopolitical beliefs. It decreases aggression.

~~~
cc81
It could be but I used to look at studies about roid rage and found back then
that there was not that much support for increased aggression, at least not
when using testosterone and in moderate dosages for bodybuilding (which are
very large dosages compared to replacement therapy).

On the other hand I'm pretty sure when we are talking really strong AAS such
trendbolone there is so much anecdotal evidence that people get aggressive
that I have no problem buying it in that case.

Never done any AAS but been prescribed corticosteroids (prednisone) which is
an anti-inflammatory and that sure as hell changes the mood for me and many
others. It is on the side-effects list as well I think and personally can get
more irritated on it. Not always but it is noticable.

~~~
1996
Are you blaming Trump on the trans? That's a funny new perspective!

But joke aside, why would hormones only work in one way?

And why couldn't you say the same about, say acetaminophen? Without a RCT your
guess is as good as mine!

~~~
cc81
Sorry, not following. I don't have any deep knowledge about the subject more
than I historically been interested in fitness and bodybuilding and with that
comes some knowledge about hormones.

Not saying "roid rage" is not impossible but the studies I saw was that the
idea mainly came from people in criminal circles who often used a multitude of
drugs who wanted to be bigger and more intimidating and then drank some
alcohol, popped some benzo or did pcp and started fights. Thus "roid rage"
became a thing.

But when they looked at people who were just in the fitness industry with
normal jobs and families that used testosterone they did not find the
connection. This was a time ago and maybe there are newer studies. However
there are much stronger anabolic steroids than testosterone and those I
suspect can cause real roid rage; some people seem to get odd rages on for
example trenbolone.

Hormones do affect how you feel though and like I said I do only have
experience with Prednisone for inflammatory bowel disease flares and while I
get noticeable more irritated (I can control it, so I know that I'm pissed
that my colleague is humming because of the medicine and I can just ignore it)
but I've read in forums about the disease that one decided to stop driving
when he was on high dose Prednisone just because he got such insane road rage
and was afraid that he would do something stupid. That is rarely something
doctors tell you.

About your other questions I don't know I'm afraid. I have very little
knowledge about the subject more than these specifics.

~~~
1996
Fair enough!

------
aszantu
Probably all that's going through the stomach has one effect or another...
Ever watched kids behaviour before and after sugary and non-sugary meals?

~~~
Zeratoss
[https://www.livescience.com/55754-does-sugar-make-kids-
hyper...](https://www.livescience.com/55754-does-sugar-make-kids-hyper.html)

There seem to be a bunch of studies indicating that it is not the sugar that
affects the behavior

~~~
DailyHN
That link does little to disprove that sugar isn't the culprit.

And anecdotally, both my partner and I can recognize adverse psychological
effects in myself after I consume too many high-glycemic carbs (ie, sugar).

~~~
tapland
I was pretty sure that the kids + sugar behavior change was debunked and all
up to expectations from the parents.

Now, this is not a study but covers what I thought was the case since years
back:

>The sugar-hyperactivity myth is based on a single study from the mid 1970's
in which a doctor removed the sugar from one child's diet and that child's
behavior improved. Since then, over a dozen larger studies have been conducted
and not one of them has found that sugar causes hyperactivity. Interestingly
enough, researchers have found that parents are more likely to say that their
kids are overly active when they think they've consumed sugar.

[https://www.eatright.org/food/nutrition/dietary-
guidelines-a...](https://www.eatright.org/food/nutrition/dietary-guidelines-
and-myplate/sugar-does-it-really-cause-hyperactivity)

~~~
DailyHN
As someone who's been on the keto diet, the majority of the past five years,
this seems blasphemous.

------
JohnJamesRambo
I had never heard of this link between statins and aggression and Tylenol and
lack of empathy before. Interesting. Maybe this is why Boomers act so strange
now. “Former flower children lost their empathy and caring for the world and
the next generation when their doctors put them all on statins and they
started gobbling Tylenol” would be quite an interesting story. Both my parents
are on statins, it seems every person past a certain age is, the doctors think
statins are something everyone should be on. I have my doubts.

>“Should people at low risk of cardiovascular disease take a statin?”

[https://www.bmj.com/content/347/bmj.f6123](https://www.bmj.com/content/347/bmj.f6123)

~~~
kshacker
I take statins and my best self-analysis is that it gives me nightmares. I
can't count the number of times I have woken up with bad dreams. However, I
think it is my brain trying to regulate heart by causing it to beat harder.
When I exercise, I usually do not have these nightmares, or maybe I am too
tired to notice them.

~~~
copperx
I got prescribed Rosuvastatin and got extremely vivid nightmares to the point
of waking up unrested. I thought I was the only one because I could find much
online. The dreams and nightmares are so intense I have stopped the statin.

Thank you for recommending me exercixe. That might be the answer.

------
dvfjsdhgfv
Some of these examples given in the article are actually quite known. For
example, many anti-asthma drugs available today have a leaflet informing the
patient about possible side-effects, such as increased anxiety, nightmares,
changes of mood and behavior, and even suicidal thoughts. Knowing this is
extremely helpful as it allows the patient to distance oneself from these
symptoms in case they occur.

------
Dwarfield
Damn, this really hits home for me. My brother got prescribed statins and one
day the family had found out he'd stopped because he didn't believe in it and
they didn't feel like they were doing anything.

He's one of the most scientific guys I know but began giving conspiracy
theory/anti vaxx sort of answers of how you can't trust medical studies all
the time. When asked why he still takes his hypertension meds and trusts the
literature there, he couldn't answer and he said it's just a feeling. The
family was pretty astounded. Honestly felt as if someone you know suddenly
started believing antivax or say flat earth ideas is the closest way I can
describe it.

I was explaining how inconsistent his thinking was, bordering on delusional.
If the truth was that the statins affected him psychologically, I can see why
he'd chose to hide it when his wife and parents are grilling him for it.

~~~
bvinc
I just want to say that there is definitely a lot of misinformation around
statins. All I want to say is that the debate among statins isn't settled like
the debate about whether vaccines cause autism.

If you do a dive of only published medical research papers and professional
opinions, you'll find nuanced arguments about what even causes heart attacks,
how effective statins are, what the very real side effects are (eg: cancer),
who all should be taking them, and what alternative treatments (eg: diet,
exercise) should be tried first.

------
teh_klev
There's a wee bit of me feels I need to ask the question, is this years later,
the Andrew Wakefield effect rearing its head again[0]?

Very small samples of and affected medicated population being used to push an
agenda? Sure I realise the brain and body are deeply interconnected, but until
we invest time and money in valid studies, how can we possibly know the
outcomes of prescribing statins, paracetamol etc in terms of human behaviour.

For the vast majority of the population taking these drugs are generally safe
(yes I know about drug allergies, which is a different thing), but I imagine
there will be in a minuscule percentage of a population, long term, there may
be side effects. I think this should be researched, but this sounds like a
scare story.

[0]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield)

------
pkaye
> the US alone buying up 49,000 tonnes of paracetamol every year – equivalent
> to about 298 paracetamol tablets per person

I bet many of those expire and are never consumed. There is very little
pricing difference based on quantity so people buy much more than needed.

------
bsenftner
Yeah, if you trust our "institutions" \- still - you are in need of a serious,
unsettling wake up. The 60's slogan of "Question authority" is needed more
than ever. Our "institutions" are predators and we are all its prey. Your
mindset is the most valued, because one they have that they can feed you
anything: any foods, any drugs, any laws and any shitty orange politician they
want.

I go out of my way to not take any medications, as well as maintain my body
with healthy foods and regular exercise. This is a responsibility we need to
respect to maintain clear heads in this psychological war period we live.

------
wolfspider
Well this is our modern “moldy rye bread” situation folks so what to do? Let’s
not forget disruption of the basal ganglia is responsible for the formation of
delusions which could be in the same ballpark here.

------
nonbirithm
All I can say is when I realized the only thing that prevents me from thinking
negative thoughts about people and things around me, being frustrated at
everything for petty reasons I end up forgetting shortly after and demolishing
my productivity was whether or not I remember to take my medication, it became
a major existential crisis for me. I felt powerless to actually change my
situation through my own actions rather than chemical rebalancing which I
can't just will into existence.

Of course I only have this crisis if I forget to take my medication.

------
EamonnMR
I'm interested that they did not touch on ADD medication there.

~~~
scottlocklin
Pretty sure everyone knows speed changes your personality!

------
lifeisstillgood
I am happy to accept that mass prescription of drugs will have unexpected
side-effects, and the cholesterol/ anger / violence link seems plausible.

My question is has anyone studied voting intentions with this as well?

~~~
logicchains
You mean studied whether mass prescription of drugs has an effect on how the
people taking them vote?

------
carbocation
This article provides no meaningful references (but some useless ones).

This is a really interesting question, but essentially left unaddressed.

~~~
blithedale
You're a cardiology fellow, so you're likely much better versed in this than
me, but take a look at the paper cited here:

Sure looks like they were doing multiple comparisons until they found a
happenstance significant subgroup. : |

"Several studies have supported a potential link between irritability and
statins, including a randomised controlled trial – the gold-standard of
scientific research – that Golomb led, involving more than 1,000 people. It
found that the drug increased aggression in post-menopausal women though,
oddly, not in men."

[https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0124451)

They adjusted for multiple comparisons, and after that even the post
menopausal group wasn't significant. The bit about how that doesn't matter
because testosterone mechanisms and independent chance seems very hand-wavey
to me.

(Moved my broader comment on this from a reply here to it's own reply to the
thread.)

~~~
carbocation
Yeah that sentence is very yikes:

“Among (postmenopausal) women, a borderline aggression-increase on statins
became significant with exclusion of one younger, surgically-menopausal woman
(N=310) β=0.70(SE=0.34)P=0.039.”

------
specialist
Along with other commenters -- thank you for sharing! -- I've also had
psychoactive side effects.

TLDR: Self reporting simply doesn't work. We need better tools, strategies. We
need before, during, and after assessments. We need to inform the people in
our lives, so we can better monitor each other's mental state and keep each
other accountable.

Most recently: Started bupropion after a surgery, in hopes of mitigating
impact. Got caught in a rut. Took myself off (all of my meds), just to reset.
I felt zero difference on or off the bupropion. The only way I knew something
was different was the activity monitor on my Apple Watch. (Just to be sure, I
resumed bupropion for a week, and I became lethargic again. Again, I felt zero
difference mentally.)

Ages ago: I was very high dose prednisone for a long time. Completely changed
my personality. I was more or less completely out of control, a human wrecking
ball. I reported mania, suicidal thoughts, etc. My team of doctors completely
dismissed such possibilities. Of course, none of them, nor any of their
patients, had received as much prednisone as me. Even after stopping
prednisone, it took years to find a new normal. I was active volunteering
afterwards. I advised both patients and their families what the prednisone
(and other drugs like chemo) was going to do to do. Strongly encouraged
seeking professional counseling, with their eyes wide open.

------
blithedale
I suggest folks read the cited research. It's eye-opening here, in a way
that's very irritiating. This does not seem like particularly good science
journalism.

Because of the road rage story in the lede, a whole lot of people are going to
walk away from that piece thinking Statins -> Aggression.

The author even repeats it in a troubling way by linking to Golomb's research
(their main source for this article I imagine) on statins and aggression:

"Since then, more direct evidence has emerged. Several studies have supported
a potential link between irritability and statins, including a randomised
controlled trial – the gold-standard of scientific research – that Golomb led,
involving more than 1,000 people. It found that the drug increased aggression
in post-menopausal women though, oddly, not in men."

You can see right there - it's plain as day. Randomised controlled trial, gold
standard. The really astute scientists now know statins make people
aggressive!

Except, EXCEPT... the study that Golomb DID found that statins overall lowered
aggression... in men, and did not raise it in pre-menopausal women.

Again, the paper the journalist linked to shows the OPPOSITE of what the BBC
piece claims it does.

The only reason the author found a subset of people that statins increase
aggression in: they sliced and dice their data a bajillion different ways.
They looked at age strata, baseline aggression, sleep-status, serotonin
status, until they found a group -- post meno-pausal women -- in which the
statin appeared to increase aggression. And that was only significant when
they excluded one participant who had medically induced menopause!

"Among (postmenopausal) women, a borderline aggression-increase on statins
became significant with exclusion of one younger, surgically-menopausal woman
(N=310) β=0.70(SE=0.34)P=0.039"

When you adjust for multiple comparisons done (otherwise pretty sure you're
just p-hacking) the result for women becomes statistically insignificant
--which, given the number of ways they sliced the data, is not at all
surprising!

"The sample size for women is half that for men, calculations did not power
separately for women, and significance of findings for women would not be
sustained under multiple comparison adjustment."

The overall thrust of 'Be a medical conservative, it's easy to cause treatment
related harms you're not aware of' is a good one - there are many pharma
companies pushing product on iffy claims. And a lot of research that shows how
pharma trials minimize side effects and maximize results by surreptitiously
excluding unhealthy trial participants.

The research in this piece is neither brilliant, nor awful... but given that
the author appears to happily be quoted in a way that takes their research out
of context, and seems to be the main source in an article that makes claims
that their research does not support, really concerns me that they have their
own flawed biases on statins ...

------
Horseshoe
I've been on high-dose statins since 1995. I still feed birds and squirrels in
my yard, and most of my so-called neighbors are still alive and seemingly
well. I must be doing something wrong :-)

~~~
jiofih
Your point being?

This is a very sad attempt at dismissing an entire study by personal anecdote,
just to feel better about yourself. Truth is nobody cares, and you just made
yourself another obnoxious commenter on the internet :-)

------
Cougher
“Then one day, she was chatting to a cholesterol expert about the potential
link in the hallway at her work, when he brushed it off as obviously nonsense.
“And I said ‘how do we know that?’,” she says.”

These are our “experts”, brushing off things about which they have no clue.

“How are all these medications affecting our brains? And should there be
warnings on packets?”

Yet another warning in a list that makes people's eyes glaze over is not going
to do much good. Additionally, people have a difficult time relating to just
how bad these effects can really be. People also tend to overestimate their
abilities to perceive the effects and endeavor to address them.

“But Golomb’s most unsettling discovery isn’t so much the impact that ordinary
drugs can have on who we are – it’s the lack of interest in uncovering it.
“There’s much more of an emphasis on things that doctors can easily measure,”
she says,”

And what is it about medications that makes people willing to connect these
dots? Money and a willingness to not want to know and even to deny what is
known. The chemical industry is very good at this and we've known about that
for a very long time. There are numerous studies that have found these same
associations with various chemical products from artificial food colorings to
laundry chemicals and more, with effects that include anxiety, depression, and
rage. The ubiquity of chemicals with unknown physiological and psychological
is staggering. It's gotten to the point where we can barely socialize without
being inundated with the 21st version of passive smoking. People and places
can't exist without dousing themselves and their spaces with chemical crap
that also includes air "fresheners", candles, essential oils, etc. Road rage,
infertility, anxiety, depression . . . all these psychological phenomena that
have risen along with the public test lab that is our world. And chemical
companies are using the tobacco industry's template of doubt and denial along
with decades of honing the craft.

“But in order to minimise any undesirable effects and get the most out of the
staggering quantities of medications that we all take each day, Mischkowski
reiterates that we need to know more. Because at the moment, he says, how they
are affecting the behaviour of individuals – and even entire societies – is
largely a mystery.”

It's true. And if it's a problem for medications that are presumably
scrutinized, what do we think is the case with the 10s of thousands of
chemicals that are basically tested using the “honor system” of industry
testing its own products for safety? These chemicals are not tested singly,
nevermind in the near limitless combinations in which they exist in our daily
lives.

“At this point it’s worth pointing out that no one is arguing that people
should stop taking their medication. Despite their subtle effects on the
brain, antidepressants have been shown to help prevent suicides, cholesterol-
lowering drugs save tens of thousands of lives every year, and paracetamol is
on the World Health Organisation’s list of essential drugs because of its
ability to relieve pain. But it is important that people are informed about
any potential psychological side-effects.”

And every one of these articles will include this boilerplate rationalization
that's a lot more complicated – and different – than this.

------
m3kw9
You are what you eat? But this is no different than hard drugs

------
julieswhites
everything else

------
boyadjian
Medication is just a tool, it must be used with care and intelligence.

~~~
rantwasp
it is a tool. i don’t believe it’s a matter of care or intelligence. it’s just
hard to synthesize something that targets one thing we don’t like (cholesterol
in this case). sometimes it goes as far as not really understanding the
underlying mechanism through which the drug actually works - i would say most
times the full interaction of the drugs are not fully understood. if you add
the desire to take a pill and just fix whatever issue you have i can see how,
on a large scale, this can be problematic

------
chiefalchemist
Intra-system communication and control isn't limited to the brain. The gut for
example, plays a part.

What's concerning about this article is that the researchers (?) we're not
open to the possibility.

~~~
rantwasp
i believe this is taking a little bit too far. it’s about actually
measuring/quantifying the effects. when this is hard/really expensive to do
I’m sure the decision not to pursue it is made at several levels. in research
(and especially in cutting edge research) you don’t get to explore everything
and you have to carefully pick and choose what you do if you want to be around
more than a few years.

~~~
chiefalchemist
The tests are done to look for such things. To deny them when presented is
indefensible.

~~~
rantwasp
i believe we are talking about different things. my point is certain markers
are easier to test for and more objective than others.

~~~
chiefalchemist
Fair enough. This was the bit that caught my attention:

Alarmed, the couple turned to the study’s organisers. “They were very hostile.
They said that the two couldn’t possibly be related, that he needed to keep
taking the medication, and that he should stay in the study,” says Golomb.

------
blackbrokkoli
An easy but not glamorous course of action to prevent this from happening on a
large scale is flushing the notion that taking a pill for _everything_
_everytime_ is A-OK out of Western culture.

The average American is on ~1 prescribed pain killer and usually has access to
several other over the counter opioids. People take incredibly potent
whatevers against the mildest allergies to prevent having reddish eyes. A pill
to take the edge off, a pill to calm down. Kids who are not firmly in the
right area of every imaginable performance bell curve at age 7 get a whole
palette of medicine against fictional anger issues, concentration issues,
learning issues, anxiety issues.

I am glad that the topic of psychological side effects is gaining traction.
Personally, I have always felt that taking any medicine is most likely going
to be a trade-off against side effects we do not really understand yet.
Keeping this in mind, one can make a much more sensible decision whether or
not to take a pill. If we get this notion back into the head of people it
would help a lot IMO.

~~~
ses1984
What "other over the counter opioids"?

