
Review of Nestle water permit neglected for decades - umeboshi
http://www.desertsun.com/story/news/environment/2015/07/23/review-nestle-water-permit-neglected-decades/30562241/
======
jotux
>But the agency’s records clearly show that efforts to review the permit were
initiated between 1999 and 2003. Then those efforts suddenly stopped, and
nothing in the records indicates exactly why.

>Gene Zimmerman, the forest supervisor who was in charge at the time, retired
in 2005. He now does paid consulting work for Nestle.

>Zimmerman has said he doesn’t see any conflict in working for Nestle in his
retirement.

I wonder if he sees any conflict working for Nestle before retirement.

~~~
abduhl
People often express opinions like yours when talking about any subject that
has to do with the government. Where does this inherent distrust come from?

Is it really so weird that a company would hire someone with intimate
knowledge of a system in order to help navigate that system? This type of
hiring occurs all the time, it literally has a name in the tech community -
"acquihire". Do you find acquihires just as distasteful and filled with
conflicts of interest?

Why do you doubt Zimmerman due to his current relation to Nestle but not Loe
and Earney due to their current relation to the conservation movement? Surely,
Zimmerman's position as forest supervisor actually makes him more credible
than a biologist and a permit administrator?

~~~
rjzzleep
contrary to what abduhl wrote in his statement asking where the distrust comes
from, I find myself thinking the exact opposite:

where does our inherent trust to government come from? When I work with you I
have to prove that I'm trustworthy. That happens either through working
together or by you looking at my track record on github, mailing lists or
whatever else.

Yet, when it comes to government officials no such thing applies. We trust
them based on the fact that they supposedly work for government and therefore
are supposedly trustworthy. But their track record generally shows the exact
opposite.

And yet when I come home in a perfectly safe, good area of London, if I want
something from my neighbour, I have to wait for her to open her 10 locks and
open a tiny bit of the door to hear her ask what I want from her.

The only reason I see that speaks for them is the appeal to authority. We
trust them, because we trust that an authority that has more power than we do
is more trustworthy than us and by extension anyone appointed by them is as
well.

~~~
dredmorbius
_Yet, when it comes to government officials no such thing applies._

No. Government positions are subject to various oversights. Much of the role
of democratic forms of government _are_ precisely that oversight. Though yes,
it's quite often very imperfect.

Elections, FOIA requests, investigative journalism, lawsuits, review by other
branches (e.g., state of county/municipal, federal of state/local),
accounting/accountability offices (GAO for the US federal government), etc.

~~~
ewzimm
People realize that oversight is a public aspect of most government activity,
but they also see that the rules of oversight are created by government and
that those who make the rules tend to occupy privileged positions and receive
large donations from powerful parties who have an interest in influencing
those rules. So while the ideal government is self-governing, there's a
perceived lack of that quality.

~~~
dredmorbius
As I noted, the oversight isn't limited to government.

And _removing_ government doesn't _improve_ oversight.

~~~
hglman
It also doesn't imply it works or cant be gamed.

------
whyenot
As the article mentions, the USFS is underfunded and understaffed. As a
result, (and as is also the case with USFWS and NMFS), permit related matters
are often "triaged" with items having a low percieved environmental impact (or
politically risky, or risk an expensive lawsuit) put off so that limited
resources can be spent on more pressing matters.

That doesn't mean corruption and regulatory capture aren't issues, but they
aren't a complete (or even major) part of the problem.

I guess also it doesn't bother me too much if drinking water is being
extracted from a national forest as these forests are required by statute to
be managed for multiple uses including resource extraction. Relatively
speaking, siphoning off water for drinking seems like it is likely to be a
relatively low impact activity, even when it's a bigevilcorporation like
Nestle who is doing the extraction.

~~~
Lazare
As gets mentioned basically every time this comes up, Nestle's total water
consumption in California last year was approximately equal to the amount of
water used by two golf courses. California has around 1200, with over 100 in
desert regions.

Of course, as the California Golf Course Superintendents Association is quick
to point out, parks and golf courses combined use up only 1% of potable water
in California. They like to point the fingers at almond growers, which consume
about a gallon per nut. Almond growers note that an ounce of lentils takes 71
gallons, and an ounce of beef 106 gallons. Farmers in general blame housing.
And so on.

Vanity fair did a somewhat amusing chart about the blame game:
[http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2015/04/california-
drought...](http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2015/04/california-drought-
shaming-diagrammed)

(Note: Take all the numbers with a grain of salt; they're self-serving press
releases, if not outright lies. Even so, it's pretty clear Nestle's not to
blame for California's water problems; whether their usage is the 0.008% of
total California water use the company claims or, hell, ten times that, it's
not a big deal.)

~~~
idlewords
Taking these numbers with a grain of salt is only going to exacerbate the
situation.

~~~
Lazare
Wondered if anyone would make that joke. ;)

------
dghughes
In BC Canada Nestle is also causing a stink over water use but it's not why
you think.

NAFTA says that once bulk sales of water begin it that's it Pandora's Box
can't be shut.

People in BC and Canada are worried if Nestle is charge even a small amount
that will be seen as a bulk sale of water and then that's it game over the US
will demand we sell water to the dry western states.

Sure it isn't exporting it but it is the sale of water to a corporation and it
is the water not the service to deliver the water, but that all may be step
one to exporting it.

~~~
gcb0
that only happens because they also have the few politics that care about
environment in the pay roll. i mean, they donate to campaign...

nobody cares or win elections with water rights. so it's very cheap to lobby
that area. nobody cares!

this excuse about the mass sale is nonsense. several countries have limits on
number of wells someone/company can have and limits on water extraction. it's
freaking simple.

------
KevinEldon
Any article about corporate consumption of public water in California feels a
little silly without reference to San Francisco's $30k/year right to Hetch
Hetchy. Yosemite Valley's neighboring valley, on a national park that every
American pays for, is flooded and destroyed and San Francisco doesn't even pay
enough to even cover the human maintenance of the land, let alone the benefit
they get from the water.

------
sergers
Here in BC Canada, nestle has been tapping our natural water resources for
free. They have been tapping a well in hope bc

Our government in turn setup a deal where nestle pays $2.25 CAD per million
litres of water they extract starting in 2016.

They took 265 million litres last year, what a farce, they will only by
charged about 600$ a year at the new price... Better than nothing but still...
I pay out of my ass for water.

Nestle in turn sells bottled water for about $1 to $3 per litre...

Recent article on the matter: [http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/canada/british-
columbia/nestlé-b-c-...](http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/canada/british-
columbia/nestlé-b-c-water-deal-too-cheap-says-ndp-1.2964709)

~~~
cperciva
_I pay out of my ass for water_

You pay for _treated_ water. If you dig a hole in the ground you'll get
untreated water for free.

~~~
sobkas
There is a subtle difference between hole in the ground in any place and a
[http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRS...](http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=165.110&SearchTerm=spring%20water%20nomenclature)

------
joshuaheard
I have hiked up in these mountains and seen some of the springs Arrowhead uses
to get its water from. The ones I have seen are small pipes running from small
springs, taking a small amount of the spring water. The San Bernardino
mountains are next to LA. I am not an expert, but I don't think a large amount
of water is used by anyone from these mountains. The US Forest Service
probably just thinks it is an insignificant amount of the total water supply
to pay tons of money to experts to come up with the required bureaucratic
report. It really wasn't until the media starting referring to Arrowhead
Mountain water company as "Nestle" that it started getting any coverage.

~~~
Rebelgecko
I'm curious how much water they actually take down the mountain (especially
since I believe they have another well down the hill in San Bernardino... or
"San Bernadino" as the article says half a dozen times). Even if it isn't
much, it is _seems_ silly since the communities up there have to import water
from elsewhere, and a big part of the cost of doing that is pumping the water
up to an elevation of ~1 mile.

That said, you're probably right that they're sending down a negligible amount
of water, especially compared to what the water agencies up there pump locally
or even compared to the declining water levels of the lakes in Arrowhead and
Big Bear

------
tracker1
I think if funding is an issue, they should simply shut Nestle's operations
down.. their permit is expired, period... if they want a new permit, part of
that deal would they should have to fund said impact study. It's really not a
difficult problem with a difficult solution here.

It's pretty obviously a combination of apathy and corruption.

~~~
saganus
Especially considering Nestlé's resources. It's not like you are taking away a
permit from a local community cooperative or something like that.

------
nugget
''The answer to 99 out of 100 questions is money.''

~~~
mcguire
I think you have your numbers backwards.

------
panzagl
A couple of things all the 'experts' in how the government works here seem to
have overlooked-

1) 'Quid pro quo' is a lot harder than it seems- it requires Zimmerman to
commit a crime, then trust that Nestle will take care of him after. This is
pretty rare.

2) Zimmerman does have value to Nestle, though, in the form of knowledge of
USFS processes, like the renewal process. If he weren't hired by Nestle I'm
sure he would be hired by another company for this knowledge.

3) If any corruption did occur, it was probably in the form of one of Nestle's
senators tapping the shoulder of the director of the USFS, leading to direct
or indirect pressure to not review the permits. This could be very subtle
(i.e. budget is cut, word comes down from on high that something else is
highest priority, and if it ain't broke don't fix it).

------
joshu
Here's an idea: You cannot take material gain that would have been illegal in
your employ for 2x your time of employ, or four years, whichever is longer.

> Gene Zimmerman, the forest supervisor who was in charge at the time, retired
> in 2005. He now does paid consulting work for Nestle.

------
kw71
I'd like to use this precedent to drive with an expired driving license. It's
discriminatory to allow some parties to continue engaging in licensed activity
while penalizing others for "the same conduct."

------
prbuckley
Government agencies have a tendancy to be incentivized to pick on small guys
who are easier/simpler to harass. The beurocrat gets the same amount of credit
for closing a small case as closing a lrage complicated case. For example this
article cites the forest service reviewing water permits for a couple of small
cabins and requiring them to install tanks at a substantial cost instead of
going after Nestle who is pumping 10's of millions of gallons a year.

------
kyledrake
It's amazing to watch one of the most sprawled-out car cultures I've ever
experienced bogeyman water bottling and almond production for their
CO2-powered drought. Absolutely amazing.

------
blondie9x
Government failed us yet again. Remind me, why am I being forced to pay 30-35%
of my paycheck to these idiots taking payouts and working like fat slugs off
my dollar? This is why the climate is so screwed up. Government isn't
responsive. You have to make industry pay true cost for use of finite
resources. Similar to taxing the finite capacity of the atmosphere to absorb
greenhouse gases. Externalities should be priced in economics. Duh? You build
a model to computer GDP but you don't take off future survival. Then what is
growth but short winded elations. Anthropocene needs to wise up before sixth
extinction sets us free, brutally.

~~~
dredmorbius
Funny, and here I sit thinking that it's a case of business corrupting
government, for its own ends.

~~~
llamataboot
To be fair, this should be a prime example of a case where free market types
AND those that believe in strong public protection of resources can agree that
it stinks. There can be no libertarian defense of this behavior. It is a
corrupted government process keeping a company from paying the true market
price for the resources it is using. All actors in this case are warping the
process for the enrichment of the company and lining the pockets of a few key
players.

Also, pulling water out of a desert watershed, trucking it up to Canada, to
ship it back down to the US to sell in little plastic bottles is the height of
corporate capitalist insanity.

~~~
dredmorbius
That's why I align myself with neither side strongly. There are balances of
power and checks required. On the market, on business and monied interests, on
government (and various branches, agencies, etc.).

Almost like an engineering problem where you want to ensure no one process
overwhelms all others.

------
beedogs
Heh. Once the TPP comes into effect, Nestle will be able to sue the USFS for
"loss of future projected revenue" if they ever actually enforce the contract
end date.

------
novaleaf
> A pipe running from the top of the San Bernardino mountains carries mountain
> spring water to Nestle North America's tanks below where its then
> transported to Ontario for bottling.

wait, let me get this straight: a pipe runs from the top of the San Bernardio
mountains carying moutain spring water to tanks below where it's transported
for bottling?!?!?!

( _joke /sarcasm_) That line is pasted like 5 or 6 times as the tagline for
most the images in the article. Talk about repetitive!

------
MichaelCrawford
I commenced my boycott of Nestle products the very same day their head honcho
asserted that water is not a human right. There are many other good reason not
to purchase Nestle's wares it's just that that single statement drove home my
understanding that Nestle employers and stockholders are notorious criminals.

My boycott is difficult not just because I enjoy many Nestle products but
because it is not always easy to determine what products Nestle actually
makes. I have learned to read product labels very very carefully.

Many fine foods and beverages that were once prepared by other, independent
businesses that are now Nestle subsidiaries. Even if Nestle does not own the
manufacture it distributes their products.

Just for grins, read the ingredients from a few Nestle foods soldin the United
States, fly to Geneva then read the ingredients of their Swiss products. One
of the greatest scams in all of human history resulted in American children
drinking nonfat milk.

Here in Vancouver I drink "Swiss Chocolate Milk", made in the United States b
Alpenrose with whole milk.

For a parent to feed their children nonfat milk is child abuse.

~~~
Aloha
Alpenrose Swiss Chocolate Mile is re-run milk, which is to say unsold expired
milk that's repasturized and sweetened.

~~~
rt_pdx
This couldn’t be further from the truth. The production manager at Alpenrose
dairy was contacted about the ingredients in Alpenrose Swiss Chocolate milk
and the main ingredients are: Fresh wholesome Milk, Cream, Sugar and Cocoa.

------
steveax
Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown [1]

[1]:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_Desert](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_Desert)

