

Ask Hn: Why do startup has Programming Challenge as part of hiring? - iworkforthem

Just wondering yhy do startup has Programming Challenge as part of hiring? I know Indinero and Quora does it. Who else does it? Why? Is it any useful?<p>https://indinero.com/jobs/backend-engineer<p>http://www.quora.com/challenges
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RiderOfGiraffes
Simply because, in my direct personal experience as an employer, and as
reported many, many times over, most people who apply for a programming job
can't actually program.

When we are hiring we _always_ insist on code to accompany the CV/resume. We
set an incredibly simple coding task - it should take no more than 10 minutes,
usually 2 - and require the code to be submitted with the job application.
Without it we find that 9/10 (roughly) applicants can't program the simplest
of solutions. With the requirement, 9/10 can. Yes, we get people who clearly
cheat.

======== ======== ======== ========

Clickables:

<https://indinero.com/jobs/backend-engineer>

<http://www.quora.com/challenges>

~~~
trotsky
In my direct experience as an employer most people who apply for a programming
job can actually program. I think it comes down to a question of degrees.
People who spend their time on heady research projects might well proclaim me
as someone who has "clearly never written a line of code in his life" (it's
happened). And yet I've had competent programmers that I ran ask me how I got
to be so good. Truth is I'm probably middle of the road - I know plenty I look
up to, and plenty I could teach. Hell, my mom can program (she writes her own
shell scripts at times).

I think the practice of "write this program before we'll talk to you" is
largely driven by technical staff who don't understand how to run an interview
where a discussion of theory and practice can suss out someone who doesn't
actually have the experience. Hell, even if they don't have a language under
their belt if they can pass the theory & practice Q&A I have every confidence
that they can pick it up and fake it enough in the meantime.

I've had bad hires before - lazy, conceptually challenged, addicted to crystal
meth - but all of them could have passed a functional programming test. Sure,
you'd like to be hiring the "excellent" programmers - but a basic functional
test isn't going to highlight them anyway - and may very well drive them away
from you.

I should note that I don't have a problem with asking for code samples -
that's a good practice I think, I do it myself. Just the complete this
arbitrary test style.

~~~
RiderOfGiraffes
I don't know how you've done that, and I'd love to find out. We ran an ad,
both direct to the media, and through a recruitment agency, asking for a
skilled C programmer to join a team writing systems to apply well-known and
well-understood algorithms to moderate sized datasets and image data. They
were required to be able to write code in an editor and use GCC on Linux.

When they came for interview we asked them to use whatever editor they liked
to write and compile code. Some used pico, some used nano, some used vi, some
used emacs, one used NotePad on their Windows laptop and transferred the code
using a USB drive.

We asked them to write a program that read a file of bytes and write a second
file, of exactly the same size, where each byte was incremented by a number.
The two file names and the amount by which to increment are to be given on the
command line.

They were told in advance that they would be asked to do something like this,
and they had 'net access to look stuff up, as well as man pages.

We found that of 17 applicants, 15 couldn't do it.

~~~
trotsky
I don't have an explanation for you. I'm not saying you didn't have 15 out of
17 interviews that couldn't program, but that certainly hasn't been my
experience. Maybe it's the market, how desirable the opening is,
salary/experience ranges or screening processes? It certainly doesn't sound
like your recruiter is a winner (most of them aren't). For the record I'm
talking mostly about SF bay hires, 100K+, 3-5 years+, sourced mostly from
internal recommendations, placement agencies we had a good track record with,
and self listed openings. AFAIK never bulk advertised ones.

If you have a 2/17 record with a placement agency you stop using them, right?

~~~
RiderOfGiraffes
No recruiter has ever worked, except when we supply a trivial programming task
to be supplied with the CV.

\+ SF bay hires

We're not in the bay area. We're really, really not in the bay area.

\+ sourced mostly from internal recommendations

We have no internal recommendations - most people who work here don't know any
other programmers.

\+ placement agencies we had a good track record with

We have zero placement agencies with good records.

\+ AFAIK never bulk advertised ones

We have to - we have no other source of applicants.

An obvious hypothesis is that if you want to employ programmers other than in
the bay area, you're screwed.

~~~
trotsky
Well, it sounds like you have good reasons for using your techniques. I think
it was a good discussion, in that it showed techniques that work for one
situation may be wholly inappropriate for another.

 _An obvious hypothesis is that if you want to employ programmers other than
in the bay area, you're screwed._

For the record, I've also hired folks in Boston, Boulder and Washington, DC
with similar experiences. I'll admit, though, that the average quality in SF
was the best.

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Skywing
Because it's trendy, and Facebook did it!

But, on a serious note, it shows a little bit of drive and willingness to put
forth some effort into your application. It also serves as an initial filter,
helping the company to target potential employees that perhaps think like they
do or, something. It also filters out people that can't actually program
simple solutions.

How is it not useful to have some sort of programming challenge?

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samratjp
Quite simply, would you fund a novelist without seeing some writing samples?
Sure, if a Vonnegut or King walks in, you're familiar with the brand name,
otherwise you want to see some street cred. Github is the street cred for
hackers these days.

On a related note, since you mentioned Indinero there, if you notice at the
bottom of that page, you'd have found this link
<https://indinero.com/gettingtoknowyou> which is very accurate of why a
cultural fit and coding skill can make or break a startup in its first steps.

As about other startups that have challenges, it's pretty easy to find. Quite
a bit of YC startups are starting to do it - of course, a blog, github and
twitter are helpful these days.

Dropbox, Justin.tv, and more recently Greplin also have challenges as well. As
a rule of thumb, here is the url nomenclature to find such challenges:
"<http://www.startup-name.{com|whatever}/jobs>

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iworkforthem
Generally I see the people who took up the programming challenges belonging to
these groups;

Problem Solver. These are the group of people that all startups are looking to
hire. In a way they love the programming challenge and want to prove
themselves. They could potential rock the startup! Sometimes a bigger ego
comes as a package for these talented individuals, be prepare to nurse.

Job Seeker. They just want to get job, since you mentioned it. They will
google, hack, etc.. anything to get it out so they can secure an interview. If
they are to do it on the spot, not sure how many can really pass it again.
Much work is required to filter them to find the one. Personally, I feel if
they have some form of problem solving approach, like rare diamonds they can
be processed further.

Ideally a few good Problem Solvers mentoring and supported by a few learning
Job Seeker delivered the best results for startups. I have never operate a
successful startup before, dun take my word for it. :)

