
Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf) - galapago
http://old.ryanfunduk.com/culture-of-exclusion/
======
oskarth
There's a world of difference between being excluded because you are of a
certain gender, religion, ethnicity or sexual orientation and because you
don't like a certain beverage.

Hey, I don't like the naive techno-optimist prevalent in many technology
events, but that doesn't in any way make me excluded. It just means I might
have a different attitude and hold a minority opinion compared to my peers,
and that I find myself bored and wanting to leave listening to some
Singularity Guru. Same thing goes with alcohol: if you don't like, don't
drink. If you feel like the event is too immature, don't show up or organize
your own events.

The reason there's so much alcohol (though I haven't really come across the
binge drinking he's talking about) is because it acts as a social lubricant,
which turns out to be useful for many people, plus it's a nice freebie for
companies, just like pizzas (don't eat it if you don't like it).

~~~
mtrimpe
> If you feel like the event is too immature, don't show up or organize your
> own events.

I don't know how you meant that, but it reads very much like STFU or GTFO to
me.

> The reason there's so much alcohol is because it acts as a social lubricant.

Except that alcohol is more than just a social lubricant; it's a disinhibitor.

That in and of itself creates an exclusionary environment for many women,
because they can't rely on physical dominance to counteract the dangers that
come with a large group of uninhibited men.

Apart from that; the simple fact that it might not be appealing to a large
group of people you wish to involve in your community should be reason enough
in- and of itself, much like how insisting on things like dirt-bike racing for
team activities might be considered exclusionary for certain groups whom this
would appeal less to.

~~~
nahname
>they can't rely on physical dominance to counteract the dangers that come
with a large group of uninhibited men.

I cannot think of a single occurrence of physical violence or rape that
occurred at a technical conference. Your projections over all women here are
unwarranted.

Maybe you feel this way because men are much more aggressive with other men?
That would be a fair statement here.

~~~
mtrimpe
There's plenty of actual harrasment to be found in this list of incidents:
[http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/index.php?title=Timeline_of_in...](http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/index.php?title=Timeline_of_incidents)

Keep in mind that this is just the subset of women who were strong and
determined enough to come out and risk retribution and damaging their career
prospects.

~~~
yummyfajitas
It's hard to take seriously a list of incidents that starts with "a model was
photographed, and the photo was later cropped and used as a test image in
image processing." Jumping to the very bottom, I see the Paul Graham non-
incident and gendered pronouns.

(Admittedly, I didn't read too carefully after seeing obvious nonsense
everywhere I looked. Perhaps a list which is curated and has silliness removed
would be a more useful citation, or at least pointing out which incidents on
this list you feel are serious.)

~~~
mtrimpe
How about this one from October 2013 where a 25-year old woman gets talked
into doing a body shot in a bar and ends up getting fingered by her boss while
lying on the bar?
[http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Codemash_sexual_assault](http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Codemash_sexual_assault)

That's when limiting myself to bar-related incidents in direct technology
events. If you include conferences here's a full on attempted rape from last
year:
[https://web.archive.org/web/20130627000201/http://georgiawei...](https://web.archive.org/web/20130627000201/http://georgiaweidman.com/wordpress/guess-
you-thought-i-was-someone-to-mess-with/)

I'm even excluding the comic cons because they're arguably not that tech-
related but harrasment there seems even more prevalent.

Notice how they also all refer to archive links? That's due to a mix of for
fear of the consequences of having these posts be at the top of Google when
searching for the victims name and straight-up libel suits being initiated by
the perpetrators.

------
coldtea
> _It 's the booze. You can't go anywhere, do anything or talk to anyone in
> the tech industry these days without a drink in your hand. If you try to
> fake it with a soda water you may as well give up trying to have insightful
> conversations after the first hour, because everyone else is wasted._

If "everyone else is wasted" then why should they catter to the non-wasted
demographic? Should they spoil everyone's fun to make a minority feel
"included"?

I understand that the STATED purpose of the event is not "getting wasted". But
an unstated and real consideration for people attending is the opportunity of
having one or several drinks with friends. Not everything operates on the
"stated" level.

A better way would be to have several types of such events, cattered to the
different demographics. And if some demographic is not big enough to organize
one, well, sometimes in life your tastes are different than most people's and
you have to accept that.

~~~
rmk2
If "everyone else is white" then why should they catter to the non-white
demographic? Should they spoil everyone's fun to make a minority feel
"included"?

I understand that the STATED purpose of the event is not "being white". But an
unstated and real consideration for people attending is the opportunity of
being with one or several white friends. Not everything operates on the
"stated" level.

A better way would be to have several types of such events, cattered to the
different demographics. And if some demographic is not big enough to organize
one, well, sometimes in life your tastes are different than most people's and
you have to accept that.

caveat: to cater

~~~
jiggy2011
This isn't really the same thing, you can't please all of the people all of
the time. You could be as try and offer as diverse activities as you like, say
drinking/sports/chess tournament and there is likely to be someone who doesn't
like any of those things.

A "whites only" restaurant is a different thing entirely to a restaurant where
you're not thrilled about the menu.

~~~
rmk2
Sure, but it _does_ matter how you present your argument, and that's not at
all what the GP _expressed_ , even if it might have been the intended meaning.

~~~
coldtea
Well, since I talked specifically about a PERSONAL behavior (drinking) to be
ALLOWED (it's a fucking personal choice), instead of people to be excluded
because of their COLOR, I'm pretty sure I didn't expressed anything like the
BS racism argument above.

------
dangrossman
Is this a SV thing? Anyone in other cities care to chime in? I've been to a
few "camps" and "confs" and tech meetup groups in Philadelphia, and none of
them were at bars nor catered with free beer. "We're meeting up at X bar after
if anyone wants to come" is a common thing to hear or even see on a schedule,
but the actual events are about the panels/speakers/networking... usually with
ample time to socialize.

~~~
stdbrouw
That's part of the problem though: socializing is a really big part of a lot
of conferences, and if the people you want to meet are all in a bar, getting a
drink, then it can be really hard to say "y'know, I'm just going to get me a
sparkling water".

~~~
mhurron
Sounds like a personal problem, because no, it's not hard to say that.

~~~
stdbrouw
Because peer pressure only exists in high school? And maybe it's not hard to
say no to a single drink, but a lot of these events go past midnight, and the
reason they "work" is because the next day when you pass each other in the
hallway you can say "woah, bit of a hangover too?" and, silly as it sounds,
bond over that. Good luck with that if you're only going to drink water,
surrounded by people getting progressively drunk.

~~~
dictum
Somewhere around the age of 18 and 19, most people develop the ability to not
care about what other people think about their activities and preferences.

Those who don't develop it before 30 or so will always suffer at the hands of
those who do, and the latter group _includes people who consider themselves
inclusive and socially conscious._

------
_delirium
Interesting, I didn't realize this kind of thing happened. Most of the
conferences I go to do have social events in bars or restaurants, sometimes
with open bars, but they don't really have an "epic party, man!" kind of feel,
or sloppy-drunk people. Culturally dependent, maybe? In much of Europe it's
normal to socialize in a bar or restaurant at lunch or dinner or afterwards.
But you'd be having some wine or beer and/or food in some kind of reasonable
establishment and chatting, not slamming back vodka shots while a DJ plays
through huge speakers, at least if the attendees are mostly post-university-
age.

~~~
untothebreach
None of the conferences I've been to (in the U.S.) have been like he describes
either. The post is from 2012, and if I remember correctly, especially then,
there was a stereotype of the Ruby community for having more than it's share
of "brogrammers," so maybe it's a community thing?

~~~
donw
Have been to several Ruby conferences over the past year, and I've never seen
this sort of thing during a conference.

The after-parties can get a little nuts, but those aren't handled by the
organizers -- and it'd be more than a little asinine to tell a group of adults
what they can and can't do in their spare time.

~~~
untothebreach
That's good to know. I definitely did not mean to imply that the Ruby
community was "the problem."

~~~
donw
No worries -- I didn't interpret it that way at all.

------
kyro
I hate alcohol. It's putrid to me. I've tried drinking everything from some of
the better brewed beers to sweeter wines, and I just can't stand the taste. So
when I go to a social event that heavily involves drinking, I opt for a water
or a soda. Not once has anyone treated me differently, or have I felt that my
interactions with others were at all hindered by my lack of alcohol intake.

I think this is more a personal issue, both with the person not drinking, and
the people who are. I imagine a lot of these conferences tend to attract a
younger demographic than what I'm used to seeing in my field (medicine) where
people have reached an age where they just don't care if you're drinking or
not, and so perhaps there's a component of immaturity here.

~~~
donw
I do this too when I'm not drinking for a period of time (diet). Never had a
problem, and I live in Japan, a country that literally has "all you can drink"
as an option at most bars.

------
tlarkworthy
Christ, I am too old to binge drink, it slays me the next day, so I avoid
partying like I used to. I don't moan about other people's lifestyle though.
Conferences are one of the few places I have a low amount of beverages though,
it does speed up the networking.

If people want to go over the top, embarrass themselves, then fair enough,
that's their prerogative. People want different things in a conference.

------
sjtgraham
I pretty much abstain from alcohol, and despite my abstemiousness never have I
once taken umbrage that others like to drink when I happen to be around. It's
quite sad that someone should get so worked up about something so trivial.

~~~
Argorak
I think that depends on context a lot. If you've got room to roam a group of
drunk people that keeps to itself is rarely a problem. I've been to
conferences where the party was in a small, crowded and loud area and I just
didn't feel good because I couldn't move away (although I do drink).

On my own conference, we take great care that beer is served in open areas and
that everyone can choose where he sits around. That works very well. It is an
issue, it is one that can very easily be solved with a bit of open-mindedness
a bit of care.

------
jiggy2011
I don't think this is a thing specific to tech, I'm not sure about the US but
I'm in the UK and at every company I have worked at (including non tech
companies) "social activities" has _always_ been synonymous with "drink
excessively".

~~~
JonnieCache
In my experience there is usually a civilised meal, and then excessive
drinking afterwards, and nobody is thought badly of for leaving after the
meal, regardless if they have children to look after or if they simple don't
like drinking.

------
blowski
On the whole, I agree with this. Unfortunately, as programming has gone
mainstream, so too has its culture. In London at least, offices and coworking
spaces seem to take more inspiration from Mad Magazine than Xerox PARC, like
somehow we'd write better software if we were just a bit more wacky.

I for one would love programming environments to look a bit more grown up and
less like a frat party.

 __edit: changed 'creative' to 'wacky' __

~~~
vanderZwan
> _Offices and coworking spaces seem to take more inspiration from Mad
> Magazine than Xerox PARC, like somehow we 'd write better software if we
> were more creative._

I get what you are trying to say, but as a guy with a degree in arts who
considers Alan Kay one of his big heroes (if old and grumpy), I have to
protest against the implied definition of "creative" here.

~~~
blowski
Yeah, I changed the word to wacky, because I think that's more what I was
trying to say.

------
grandalf
There is a strong tradition of puritanism in the US, and this post highlights
some of the points of tension. Unfortunately, like many such arguments, the
author makes what is largely a moral argument and amounts to finger shaking.

The real reason brogrammers are entering the field is b/c money flows have
shifted from things like investment banking and law into technology. It's the
same reason more women, minorities, poets, etc. are entering the field as well
(more opportunity in general) so it's hard to paint it as a bad thing.

Tech culture is broadly liberal (with a small L). All kinds of nerds and geeks
have found a home here. The conflict is not between true nerds and
brogrammers, it's between a liberal/open mindset and a closed/puritan mindset.
In the former, there will occasionally be a few annoying people who can't
handle a few drinks; in the latter alcohol is a poison that corrupts all who
partake and erodes beneficial social order.

------
skrebbel
> _Come on, should we also have complimentary joints available? You know
> marijuana use can be linked to reduced stress and studies suggest it can be
> useful in treating depression! Please. This doesn 't belong in the
> workplace!_

And I ask, why not?

~~~
dictum
Snarky strawman time: I'm sure the author thought the average reader would, by
dint of puritanism, be repulsed by people smoking weed at a conference.

I suggest using crack or heroin for reefermadnessed analogies like that next
time. No, go nuts: Krokodil. Let the reader imagine people using krokodil at a
conference.

* * *

It's "unprofessional". Never do anything in your spare time that does not
further your career and company.

------
bowlofpetunias
As far as I can tell, this is not about alcohol, this is about culture.

Mostly about the immature American drinking culture that is the result of the
absurdly high drinking age.

Drinking alcohol <> getting totally wasted, and the presence and consumption
of alcohol does not necessarily lead to an atmosphere where sober people
should feel excluded.

------
JonnieCache
I've just realised: if the age of the stereotypical american tech worker is 23
or so, that means these people have only been able to drink for _a couple of
years._

Suddenly these posts make a lot more sense.

~~~
jiggy2011
That's a good point. In the UK people can buy alcohol at 18 or drink it at
home or with a meal earlier than that. By 23 everyone is 5+ years into their
"drinking career" and (mostly) know their limits. "Getting hammered" for the
sake of it is kinda passe at that stage too.

If US tech companies are full of people with the alcohol maturity of a British
19-20 year old then I can see why that might end badly.

------
calinet6
Point of data: nearly _all_ conferences for _all_ industries revolve largely
around drinking.

I worked in the outdoor industry for 5 years and went to the Outdoor Retailer
trade show on the floor of the Salt Lake City convention center, which houses
huge brands from all over the world. And what happened at 4pm every day of the
conference? Every other booth or so tapped a keg or opened their coolers. They
gave out free glasses ("swag"), free beer, free bottles.

And during that time, people knew that all the real connections and business
was happening. You'd get far more networking done over two hours of beers and
mingling than you'd accomplished all day trying to sell yourself to people
with your best poker face and laptop demo.

It comes down to this: for the human species, it's more genuine to have fun
together and build social ties based on real emotional connections and shared
experience than to focus on a topic in isolation. I think this is the effect
you notice, and it's not at all uncommon. In fact, I'd say compared to other
experiences I've had, from college to the Outdoor Retailer trade shows, to now
two companies I've worked for where alcohol has been present and accounted
for, the programmers are the mildest of the set.

I get it, I really do. I've been there and I've been frustrated by the
alcoholic focus of social gatherings, I've been frustrated by friends' desire
to go to dingy bars just to drink, I've been a wallflower at frat parties
watching the puzzling behavior of the curious species in front of me. I've
done that thing, this thing you're frustrated about and writing about.

And then I grew up. I'll do the same thing, go out to bars, have just one
drink, be stunned at all the drunk people, but I can also look at it from
their perspective. These are all people trying to have fun in a life in which
it's difficult to find meaning, trying to form connections in a world where
being alone and cold and digital has become the norm, trying to break down the
walls of their own frustrations and insecurities and be someone they didn't
think they could be, but most of all, trying to stop trying so hard.

I don't know. It seems to make no sense, and yet it does in the context of a
little experience and empathy. There's balance and moderation in everything,
and certainly I agree that there's a little too much focus on excess, even if
it is just a vocal minority being very obvious and loud. But a beer or two now
and then to help you relax and enjoy life just a tiny bit more is certainly
not to be discounted entirely as a negative, and the effect it has in a group
setting is sometimes stunning to watch. So I feel some balance is required in
this perspective.

~~~
gtz60
I think that our "grow up" attitude might contribute to more to the exclusion.
What I mean is, saying "you need to change" isn't the best way to bring
excluded people in. Even if we are right.

~~~
calinet6
Very fair point. I'm not saying "grow up" here in a condescending way, as much
as explaining my perspective once I did grow up and start seeing people's
behavior in another light. But it does come off as exclusionary and
condescending, sorry about that.

------
ryanackley
The irony is that by perpetuating stereotypes like "brogrammers", the author
is actually encouraging a culture of exclusion.

The meme can be a little funny but I find myself stopping and thinking. "Wait,
I go to the gym, I have a social life, I occassionally go to bars, does that
mean I'm a brogrammer?".

The point of it is to ridicule certain behaviors in a social group
(programmers). It says "if you don't fit my criteria for how a programmer
should behave then you aren't one of us."

------
agentultra
Drinking is everywhere. My father in law works in dental implants and he goes
to conferences on cruise ships... which are all about drinking in between
talks. You don't have to partake of course but there aren't many people who
make that choice (he doesn't "get" drinking at all).

I agree that keeping it out of the conference itinerary is probably best. I
have only been to Pycon/PyconCA 2012, 2013 and will be speaking at 2014. I
don't recall there being an official, sponsored event at a bar. There were
provided areas for impromptu talk sessions and meetups (to hack or play board
games or whatever). But overall it seemed like drinking was something that was
scheduled unofficially for those interested in partaking _after_ the day was
over.

It might help trying out different communities. I know in Toronto the Ruby
group frequently meets up for... drinks [0]. And I worked for a company that
sponsored a few javascript meetups... and provided drinks. At least in Toronto
there's a strong link between the Ruby/JS community and going out for beers.
The Python and Lisp groups tend to meetup at co-working spaces and cafes.

[0] [https://twitter.com/torontorb](https://twitter.com/torontorb) (just count
the number of times "drinkup" is mentioned... I never even realized this was a
thing until I read this article [1]
[http://createsend.com/t/j-72A1831D965A5352](http://createsend.com/t/j-72A1831D965A5352)
One of many Toronto javascript events organized at a bar.

------
nebstrebor
A few observations: 1) this isn't discrimination but it can encourage self-
selection into or out of the group; 2) If tech firms, or a segment of the tech
industry as a larger entity (e.g., rails, node, etc.) promote themselves,
recruit, and try to be cool by sponsoring a bunch of drinking events, they'll
attract programmers who like drinking events, and that will become part of the
culture of the company and/or industry, since that's what brought them
together, what they bonded over, and what they have in common outside of work.
3) There are other (a)venues to facilitate socialization (ice cream, coffee,
etc.) including things like pizza or bowling where alcohol can be a part of
it, but isn't the main event. Just like drinking, no one thing is for
everyone, but that's ok. Consider it a venn diagram, where some in the
industry seem to be only filling one circle.

------
lafar6502
Maybe the problem is with the choice of conferences to attend, not with people
attending them?

------
VMG
This post makes me feel excluded for drinking beer.

~~~
danellis
Half the posts on HN and Twitter make me feel excluded for not being a dick in
one way or another.

------
jackgavigan
Maybe Ryan Duk should organise a "dry" conference, for those who share his
dislike for alcohol and those who drink it. I'm sure it would be a massive
success although, as an Irishman, it wouldn't be my cup of tea.

------
1angryhacker
The author should probably lighten up, but I agree with the general sentiment.

If you want to drink, hang out with your friends. Your colleagues may also be
your friends, or maybe your friends are in the tech scene too, but let's get
real, software dev is a job, a career and it puts roofs over people's heads
and food on their tables. Treat it with respect.

------
Bahamut
I have not seen any of these issues at the meetups here in DC or the one
conference I've been to (ng-conf). People drank some, sure (including me), but
binge drinking wasn't on the order of agenda for most of us. Nobody was judged
for not drinking either.

------
hajderr
Spot on bro !

------
menriquez
"It's sort of like high school is repeating itself."

welcome to life dude, get over yourself.

