
Steve Jobs, LSD and Drug Freedom - spking
http://politics.salon.com/2011/10/08/steve_jobs_and_drug_policy/singleton/
======
wheels
Incidentally, despite the oft quoted, "Bill Gates would be a broader guy if he
had dropped acid once", Bill Gates basically did admit to taking LSD in a 1994
interview:

 _PLAYBOY: Ever take LSD?

GATES: My errant youth ended a long time ago.

PLAYBOY: What does that mean?

GATES: That means there were things I did under the age of 25 that I ended up
not doing subsequently.

PLAYBOY: One LSD story involved you staring at a table and thinking the corner
was going to plunge into your eye.

GATES: [Smiles]

PLAYBOY: Ah, a glimmer of recognition.

GATES: That was on the other side of that boundary. The young mind can deal
with certain kinds of gooping around that I don't think at this age I could. I
don't think you're as capable of handling lack of sleep or whatever challenges
you throw at your body as you get older. However, I never missed a day of
work._

[http://beginnersinvest.about.com/od/billgates/l/blbillgatesi...](http://beginnersinvest.about.com/od/billgates/l/blbillgatesint5.htm)

~~~
cbs
_Incidentally, despite the oft quoted, "Bill Gates would be a broader guy if
he had dropped acid once", Bill Gates basically did admit to taking LSD in a
1994 interview:_

As with most drugs, those who don't wear the uniform of the subculture
associated the drug (or at least strongly show the personality traits their
users like to attribute to the drug) are assumed to never have done them.

~~~
bdunbar
The reverse is true, as well. My favorite 'after work' pullover in cool
weather is a Baja hoodie.

Found out a few days ago this is garb that is associated with stoners at the
high school: it's nickname is 'drug rug'.

I now understand the stink eye the school cop used to give me. And why a guy
at a truck stop assumed that I - a middle-aged white guy with three kids in
tow - might have something illegal he needed to see him through his overnight
run.

------
rwmj
I've taken LSD and 'shrooms a few times, and while I can understand what Jobs
is saying, I think he was wrong. I had mystical experiences where I thought I
understood that the whole world was connected together, and I was connected to
the world, and other deep insights. I think this was just brain-addled
delusion, not any insight into how things really are.

That said, I fully support these things being legal, and (for people who
aren't naturally anxious) trying them with a good "set" and "setting".

~~~
tomelders
I too have taken LSD. Microdots were prevalent circa 1995 in South Yorkshire,
which were strong to the point of not being funny. However, I did manage to
get my grubby little junkie mitts on a few paper trips which were a lot more
pleasant.

My own personal view that it did change the way I look at the world in some
strange and indescribable ways and the experiences made a large contribution
to the person I am today, for better and for worse. I never had any grand
epiphanies though, but I had some really good times.

I also had some truly horrible times which resulted in some pretty strange
phobias that I'm only just starting to get over, but I wouldn't say they've
had any noticeable affect on my life.

The moral of the story? There is no moral to this story.

~~~
wellsaid
You really put it accurately. When I came to psychedelics I had expectations
and excitement and stuff. It didn't turned out exactly as expected.

------
melling
I've never used illegal drugs, and I've never had a desire. However, the one
problem we do have by keeping certain drugs illegal is that Americans are
destroying countries, like Mexico, where a week doesn't by where a drug gang
hasn't killed someone. Illegal drug money is used to finance so much
corruption and killing, that there seems to be little value in keeping them
illegal, especially considering that everyone who wants to take drugs still
does. If certain drugs do have harmful effects then at least the effects will
be mostly limited to the people who take them.

~~~
rick888
"Illegal drug money is used to finance so much corruption and killing, that
there seems to be little value in keeping them illegal, especially considering
that everyone who wants to take drugs still does. If certain drugs do have
harmful effects then at least the effects will be mostly limited to the people
who take them."

Mexico is already corrupt without the drugs. Making them legal will give the
cartels even more power because they will now be able to legally sell drugs in
the US.

They already have (and know how to run) multi-million dollar operations, you
don't think they won't think about legally partnering up with companies in the
US?

"If certain drugs do have harmful effects then at least the effects will be
mostly limited to the people who take them."

Many people want government-run health care in the US. Legalizing illegal
drugs will add to the already large amount of addicts. Do we really want more
addicts in our hospitals? I also don't feel like I should be forced to pay for
your poor life choices. Regular Drug users should immediately get a huge
increase in healthcare costs.

We still have tons of people suing the cigarette companies because they cause
cancer. I can only imagine how many lawsuits will be in our court systems if
there is a company selling heroin.

~~~
adamtmca
Not to pile on, but:

> Many people want government-run health care in the US. Legalizing illegal
> drugs will add to the already large amount of addicts. Do we really want
> more addicts in our hospitals? I also don't feel like I should be forced to
> pay for your poor life choices. Regular Drug users should immediately get a
> huge increase in healthcare costs.

First, the fact that drugs are illegal has done nothing to make them difficult
to get - I think most university students would agree they are about 3 text
messages away from any drug they might want. People don't avoid drugs because
they are illegal, they avoid them because they are concerned about addiction &
health effects.

Second, addiction _is_ a public health issue, not a law and order issue. Do
you know how expensive it is to imprison someone vs sending them to a rehab
program? Take a look at Portugal - treating addiction like the health issue it
is works and it's cheaper.

> We still have tons of people suing the cigarette companies because they
> cause cancer. I can only imagine how many lawsuits will be in our court
> systems if there is a company selling heroin.

I won't argue the premise but surely you would agree that a backed up court
system beats DEA agents getting their heads blown off on a regular basis.

~~~
rick888
"Second, addiction is a public health issue, not a law and order issue. Do you
know how expensive it is to imprison someone vs sending them to a rehab
program? Take a look at Portugal - treating addiction like the health issue it
is works and it's cheaper"

I looked, and I'm not surprised by the results:

[http://www.npr.org/2011/01/20/133086356/Mixed-Results-For-
Po...](http://www.npr.org/2011/01/20/133086356/Mixed-Results-For-Portugals-
Great-Drug-Experiment)

"Today, more users are in rehab, but drug use is on the rise, and reporter
Keith O'Brien says the policy has made the problem worse."

"personal drug use over the course of their lifetime has gone up about 40 to
50 percent in the last decade."

Drug use is actually up...because there is no legal risk.

More from the article:

"They would meet with the person who had been picked up in possession of
whatever drug it was and discuss the issue. These CDTs would then hand down
various, sort of, not punishments, but treatments. Some people would, you
know, be asked to enter counseling. Some people would be banned from, say,
going to raves, if that's where they were doing their drugs; or banned from
attending certain concerts or bars, if that's where they were doing drugs.
And, you know, this is very controversial, even in Portugal, as you can
imagine."

Do you really want the government telling you you can't go to a concert or
rave?

I would really like to see the long-term numbers for Portugal. I predict they
will be bankrupt within 15 years.

"I won't argue the premise but surely you would agree that a backed up court
system beats DEA agents getting their heads blown off on a regular basis"

They still get their heads blown off for things like Vicodin (a legal form of
heroin), so how will legalizing all drugs be any different?

"Take a look at Portugal - treating addiction like the health issue it is
works and it's cheaper."

------
jgrahamc
I wish that his article had delved more into the long term effects (benefits
or otherwise) of taking psychedelic drugs rather than going off into a
complaint about US drug policy.

Anyone got interesting, concrete data to share rather than anecdotes about
Steve Jobs?

~~~
Alex3917
"Anyone got interesting, concrete data to share rather than anecdotes about
Steve Jobs?"

Here are all of the Johns Hopkins studies on psilocybin:

<http://csp.org/psilocybin/>

You might also be interested in going to Horizons if you're going to be in NYC
this coming weekend:

<http://www.horizonsnyc.org>

It's all of the talks on the latest scientific research on psychedelics for
therapeutic use. You can also watch many of their previous talks here:

<http://vimeo.com/horizons>

As well as many of the talks from the huge MAPS conference that took place
last April:

<http://www.maps.org/media/videos/>

If you're looking to read any books on this, a couple I'd recommend would be:

<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1594774021/erowid-20>

<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1594772509/erowid-20>

<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0892819278/erowid-20>

I have an entire page with many more links to this stuff, but it's on Squidoo
so if I linked to it then my comment would be auto-deleted. Heh.

edit: Changed Amazon links to donate affiliate fees to Erowid

~~~
jessriedel
All the studies I've seen either have to do with safety, perceived benefit
(self-evaluated), or effect on attitude (openness) as measured by a survey. Do
you know of any studies which identify an objectively measurable positive
benefit to the subjets? For example: decreased risk of suicide, decreased risk
of divorce, increased likelihood of solving a long-standing problem, increased
success at work, etc.

~~~
Alex3917
"Do you know of any studies which identify an objectively measurable positive
benefit to the subjets?"

Deciding whether something is objectively measurable or not has thousands of
years worth of philosophical baggage, so I can't really say whether any of
these will meet your definition, but for what it's worth:

\- Using LSD to treat alcoholism

\- Using ibogaine to treat opiate addiction: <http://vimeo.com/20118700>

\- Using psilocybin to treat smoking: <http://vimeo.com/15913255>

\- Self-evaluated life quality in psychedelic drug users vs. non-users:
<http://www.maps.org/videos/source4/video12.html>

\- Using MDMA for PTSD: [http://www.oprah.com/health/PTSD-and-MDMA-Therapy-
Medical-Us...](http://www.oprah.com/health/PTSD-and-MDMA-Therapy-Medical-Uses-
of-Ecstasy/print/1)

\- Using LSD / Psilocybin for cluster headaches: <http://vimeo.com/10918637>

\- Using LSD for solving long-standing problems. (James Fadiman discusses this
in his book that I linked to, and I think also here:
<http://www.maps.org/videos/source4/video5.html.>)

~~~
jessriedel
Thank you for the response. Philosophical discussion aside, I think most of us
can agree that there is a huge difference in reliability between self-reported
results, and the more objective examples I mentioned.

I appreciate the videos, but I'm really looking for controlled studies. (In
principle, I'm very open to the idea of using drugs like LSD for the treatment
of things like alcoholism or cluster headaches. And I think it's a shame that,
given the _relative_ degree of safety associated with these drugs, it's nearly
impossible to legally runs such studies. But at the end of the day, there
looks like a huge lack of evidence and I'm very skeptical.)

Thanks again.

~~~
Alex3917
"I appreciate the videos, but I'm really looking for controlled studies."

Here is the first of probably many controlled studies with 2-bromo-LSD for
cluster headaches:

[http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2011/06/lsd-
alleviates...](http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2011/06/lsd-alleviates-
suicide-headaches.html)

The MDMA research on PTSD also has placebo controls. There are several
different studies on this, you can probably find them via maps.org.

And James Fadiman writes about actual research done on problem solving in his
book, although it isn't really possible to control since each person's long-
standing problem is different.

~~~
jessriedel
Awesome, thanks!

> Cluster headache attack cessation and remission extension of months or
> longer in six treatment-refractory patients administered only 3 doses of
> BOL-148

> Five male patients with treatment-refractory chronic cluster headache and
> one female patient with treatment-refractory mixed cluster/migrainous
> headache were administered 2-bromo-LSD (BOL-148) (20mcg/kg) at five-day
> intervals for a total of three treatments. Sixteen-week outcome data on the
> five male patients revealed a robust treatment response, with three of the
> five having no attacks for more than one month, thereby shifting their
> diagnosis back to the episodic form of cluster headache. Similarly, the
> female patient reported quiescence of cluster attacks for greater than one
> month and "significant" improvement in migraine in the following weeks from
> last dose of BOL-148. This poster presents longterm outcome data on all 6
> patients who received BOL-148. In follow-up with these patients, BOL-148
> provided significant headache relief that lasted for several months to more
> than one-year. Data suggests that BOL-148 may function as an important new
> treatment, though, at present, there is no explanation for such long-term
> prophylactic effects with no later drug re-administrations. There is some
> evidence that BOL-148 is affecting epigenetic mechanisms and may open the
> possibility for a near-cure-like treatment for patients afflicted with
> vascular headaches.

Incidentally, this is apparently a non-hallucinogenic analog of LSD.

------
spinchange
As a young man, I took psychedelics several times under the pretense of mind
expansion. Looking back, I think the things I've read (and internalized),
relationships I've had, and just generally "getting out of my comfort zone"
had a more formative effect on my outlook than any chemicals.

If you want to use them, that's fine. But I would hate to think a young hacker
reading this stuff felt like he _needed_ to use psychedelics.

The notion that dropping acid was one of the two or three most important
things Steve Jobs had done in his life seems a bit...reality distorting.

------
Enthusiastic
The apple logo itself could be taken as a symbol of accepting psychedelic
insight. A bite of the forbidden apple.

When talking about Steve Jobs and LSD, we should consider the work of Myron
Stolaroff and his associates. LSD can be used in anything from satanic orgies
to mystical new age woo to CIA mind control experiments to creative technical
problem solving. The branch of the psychedelic family tree SJ plucked his
apple from is related to Myron Stolaroff's work on creative and technical
problem solving.

Article by Myron Stolaroff on using psychedelics wisely:
[http://www.erowid.org/psychoactives/writings/stolaroff_using...](http://www.erowid.org/psychoactives/writings/stolaroff_using.shtml)

Podcast featuring early psychedelic researcher James Fadiman "Using
Psychedelics to solve technical and scientific problems"
[http://beemp3.com/download.php?file=3226003&song=042-Fad...](http://beemp3.com/download.php?file=3226003&song=042-Fadiman+Using+Psychedelics+to+Solve+Technical+and+Scientific+Problems)

Article mostly about Al Hubbard (fascinating reading in it's own right), which
connects Steve Jobs to Myron Stolaroff's advocacy of LSD among engineers and
technologists: [http://kikoshouse.blogspot.com/2009/10/alfred-captain-al-
hub...](http://kikoshouse.blogspot.com/2009/10/alfred-captain-al-hubbard-
appreciation.html)

And finally, a 1960s study about LSD and creative problem solving (by
Stolaroff, Fadiman, et al) "Psychedelic Agents in Creative Problem Solving: A
pilot study" <http://www.erowid.org/references/texts/show/7609docid6734>

------
sjtgraham
Jobs was one of a kind, and to attribute his achievements even in part, to
hallucinogens is a fallacy. If it was true, there would be more people like
Steve Jobs in the world today.

I think Steve was wrong on this, as he was wrong on other things, i.e. that
pancreatic cancer could be treated with a special diet. Maybe if Steve sought
medical attention earlier he would still be with us today changing the world.

~~~
euroclydon
My dad died nine months after being diagnosed with Pancreatic Cancer, which
was three months longer than expected. Steve Jobs died years later, after the
Whipple Surgery and a liver transplant.

~~~
sjtgraham
I'm sorry for you loss. Jobs had a rare type of pancreatic cancer, islet cell
neuroendocrine tumour, which accounts for ~1.3% of cases. With early enough
treatment, the prognosis for this type of cancer is much better than other
types of pancreatic cancer.

~~~
euroclydon
Ah, didn't know that. Thanks.

------
kristofferR
Tim Ferris does a high dose of mushrooms (psilocybin) once a year. He says
that each trip has had a major positive impact for several months and solved a
major problem in his life.

<http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/17192634> @ 0:33:42

------
naner
Sam Harris on LSD:

[http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/drugs-and-the-meaning-
of-...](http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/drugs-and-the-meaning-of-life/)

~~~
saturdaysaint
Great article. I've gone back to that thought "Everything we do is to alter
our consciousness" since my first highs.

I went to a church for a concert recently and I was struck with the lengths
these people went to in order to alter their consciousness without "drugs".
Highly emotionally charged speakers work everyone up. Food and coffee are
practically fetishized. There's a nice (albeit kind of unnatural/forced) sense
of community that hits certain primal emotional triggers. So yeah, everyone's
trying to altering their consciousness.

------
mannicken
There might be some truth to Steve Jobs' view of LSD.

There have been studies that link psychedelics and aesthetics:
[http://yourlife.usatoday.com/health/story/2011-09-29/Magic-m...](http://yourlife.usatoday.com/health/story/2011-09-29/Magic-
mushroom-drug-may-improve-personality-long-term/50602264/1)

I'd say LSD is like steroids for artists/designers/creative people or
Adderall/Ritalin for students. Sure it won't make you creative overnight but
it will reaaalllly help, and it's kind of dangerous. Most of the danger comes
from illegality, of course :)

It is just a lot easier to come up with new ideas when your mind is open and
sketchbook seems to be a direct extension of your brain, where you can just
'think' ideas with pencil.

------
bdunbar
_It’s fascinating to juxtapose America’s reverence for Steve Jobs’
accomplishments and its draconian drug policy_

The author confuses American government policy with American citizens.

------
akamaka
Since this article brings up an LSD anecdote from Steve Jobs, I'll add one
from someone who is not famous at all, but which I think is no less useful.

A few weeks ago, I spotted two men fighting outside of a bar. The older man
got violently pushed to the ground, and I went up to him to see if he was
okay, and ask him what had happened.

He rambled on for a while, telling me that dropping acid in the early 1970s
was one of the most important experiences he had ever had. It put him in touch
with a higher dimension, and he would sometimes receive messages from there.
The reason people beat him up sometimes, he explained, was that he spoke the
truth, directly as God sent it to him, and that people didn't like hearing the
truth.

Make up your own mind about LSD, but try to take into account more than one
data point!

------
andrewparker
For anyone who is interested in the article, I strongly recommend reading
"What the Dormouse Said" by John Markoff:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_the_Dormouse_Said>

It's about how the counter-culture attitude of the 60s helped inspire the PC
wave of innovation. Drug use is one of the core topics, but it is not
romanticized. The book is very "matter of fact" in its analysis of how drugs
were involved in the evolution of the PC.

------
Hitchhiker
<http://homepage.mac.com/mseffie/handouts/hindsight.html>

~~~
kr1shna
and the relevance to this article is?

------
cletus
So is this the pattern we can expect for the coming months? HN posts titled
"Steve Jobs and [insert my agenda here]"?

I realize when you want publicity for your cause, startup, whatever you tie it
to something else that's in the news anyway but all these "Steve Jobs and X"
posts are bordering on tacky or tasteless.

Although at least this isn't as bad as Stallman's truly tasteless rant.

------
brudgers
[edit because absurdity is apparently not obvious] By the author's
logic,[/edit] perhaps people should consider putting their children up for
adoption, too.

However, I suspect that moving to Silicon Valley would be more likely to
provide them with opportunities for success.

~~~
jhamburger
The author's logic isn't "Steve Jobs took LSD, you should too", it's "Steve
Jobs took LSD and credits it as a crucially important intellectual experience
in his life, so maybe you should too." I'm pretty sure Jobs didn't say the
same thing about being adopted.

~~~
brudgers
The author's argument is more along the lines of:

    
    
      P1 = Steve Jobs was a success.
      P2 = Steve Jobs took LSD.
      -------
      Therefore US drug policy is bad.

------
jinushaun
The article is all over the place and somewhat poorly written, but I generally
agree with the overall premise before I even clicked the link: America's drug
policy of prohibition is a waste of time, money and resources.

------
nihilocrat
Reminds me of Carl Sagan's musings on marijuana usage.

------
kr1shna
Okay, so the article has some valid arguments. But why use Steve Jobs to make
a point about drugs?

------
cateye
Godwins law is tranforming to Jobs law. All discussions will lead to Steve
Jobs.

~~~
jgrahamc
Not really. This is little more than the media using Steve Jobs' death as a
hook for whatever particular story they are writing or comment they wish to
make. It too will pass.

------
drivebyacct2
I will never understand how HN manages to be so (maybe relatively) anti-drug,
even in a latent fashion on this topic. I do, not, understand this sentiment.
For all of the things that HN does not take at face value, there is a blind
acceptance of the "drugs are evil" viewpoint espoused (often _exclusively_ in
the face of _their own studies, dozens of times, over 20 years_ ) by the
United States Government.

Downvote within 3 minutes, immediate comments touting how evil and unhealthy
they are (which for the majority of lower level drugs are simply untrue, but
you wouldn't know that unless you thought for yourself and read the
literature).

Maybe I should clarify, there is an unusually large amount of effort that
seems to be exuded in terms of keeping others from taking drugs, either
through culture, pressure or laws than I am used to expecting on HN.

~~~
bbgm
They may not be evil, but they aren't particularly good for you either

~~~
garethsprice
You could say the same about chocolate cake.

~~~
dualogy
Sugar, you're right. Natural organic unsweetened dark chocolate "in
moderation"? No concerns, antioxidant, aphrodisiac etc. pp.

------
sthulbourn
RUMOUR: Apple to start selling iLSD.

