
Against Normalization: The Lesson of the “Munich Post” - nafizh
https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/normalization-lesson-munich-post/
======
nabla9
>'Putin isn't Hitler!' 'Trump isn't Hitler!' Wow, congratulations! You have
failed the most basic lesson of learning from history in order not to repeat
it!

>I wrote about this fallacy extensively in Winter is Coming and elsewhere, but
am happy to recap it here. Of course Putin isn't Hitler, and Donald Trump
isn't even Putin—no matter how much he would like to be. The point is that no
one is making comparisons to the monster Adolf Hitler became in the 1940s. But
in the 20s, even for most of the 30s, Hitler wasn't Hitler either! There could
be no more important lesson to understand than how a race-baiting demagogue
came to power in an educated and liberal country like Germany and how he
transformed that nation into a fascist death machine capable of World War and
unimaginable acts.

\-- Garry Kasparov

~~~
Nokinside
Zeit has eye opening article Adolf Hitler : "Wait Calmly"

[http://www.zeit.de/wissen/geschichte/2017-02/adolf-hitler-
ch...](http://www.zeit.de/wissen/geschichte/2017-02/adolf-hitler-chancellor-
appointment-anniversary/komplettansicht)

They describe how journalists, even big liberal newspapers, big-business
representatives, and conservatives had all the same illusion that Hitler would
be something that could be managed and lived trough. Business leaders and
conservatives aligned with him because there seemed to be some common
interests they could work trough together.

""In the Frankfurter Zeitung, politics editor Benno Reifenberg expressed doubt
Hitler had the "social competence" for the office of chancellor, but didn’t
think it was out of the question that the responsibility of his office might
transform him in ways that could earn him respect. Like Theodor Wolff,
Reifenberg described it as "a hopeless misjudgment of our country to believe a
dictatorial regime could be forced upon it." "The diversity of the German
people demands democracy," he wrote.""

Hitler needed only five months in power to change everything.

~~~
leereeves
Let's speak plainly.

Are you suggesting that Trump intends to abolish democracy or commit genocide?

~~~
Nokinside
>intends to abolish democracy

He don't even know what that is. He has already demonstrated that he was
surprised that he can't rule the government as a CEO-king. Bannon believes in
big war that cleansing the system, so maybe he does. Attorney General Sessions
has shown clear contempt against civil rights.

>or commit genocide?

Of course not. Fascism is not equal to genocide. He want's to kill families of
those who he opposes. So he is probably with some mass murders, but I don't
think it's on the top of his mind.

Compare two fascist states in Europe, Germany under Hitler and Italy under
Mussolini. They took two different paths. In Germany fascism developed without
restraints into self destructive expansion. In Italy fascism turned into
normal authoritarian rule and dictatorship under Mussolini.

If the assumption is that comparisons to fascists and Hitler all suggest some
kind of holocaust, they are meaningless.

~~~
leereeves
> If the assumption is that comparisons to fascists and Hitler all suggest
> some kind of holocaust, they are meaningless.

They are meaningless.

The Holocaust is the reason everyone still talks about Hitler 70 years later,
the reason people still compare politicians they don't like to Hitler.

If you merely wish to discuss "normal authoritarian rule" there are hundreds
of other leaders to whom you could make less emotionally charged comparisons.

But I'm curious, now that you've said Trump doesn't know what democracy is and
offered a comparison with "normal authoritarian rule and dictatorship under
Mussolini" ...

Do you think we'll still hold elections 4 years and 8 years from now and Trump
will resign peacefully when his term ends?

~~~
Nokinside
>The Holocaust is the reason everyone still talks about Hitler 70 years later,

That's vulgar comparison for uneducated people. If the only difference between
Hitler and some other dictator is genocide, we haven't learned anything from
history.

All fascist movements, Hitler, Mussolini, Franco etc. used similar methods
that made fascism different from other dictatorships and authoritarian
moments.

Suggested reading: The Anatomy of Fascism, Robert O. Paxton. In that book
Paxton rescues the fascism as a concept from a insult into meaningful concept.

~~~
leereeves
It easy to make such comparisons to fascism without invoking thoughts of the
Holocaust: compare to Mussolini or Franco instead of Hitler.

~~~
Nokinside
Trump kept a book of Hitler's speeches by his bed, not books of Mussolini
speeches.

~~~
leereeves
And here again you seek to imply something without actually saying it.

What do you mean to imply by that?

------
narrator
Continuous war since 2001 and all 8 years of the Obama administration is the
real normalization we should be afraid of.

~~~
rjtavares
We should be afraid of both (I would even argue that the Trump phenomenon is a
direct consequence of the normalization you mention).

------
thro23990
As someone from East Europe, I am highly offended by this post. Comparing your
shit-show to WW2 is @#$%&*...

Mussolini is much better comparation, but not as punchy.

Trump does not advocate genocide, but enforcement of existing laws (mostly
setup by democrats). And author should look where Mein Kampf is bestseller...

------
belorn
The last US election can't be described without talking about the loosing
candidate. A majority of voters on both side voted, not based on policy, but
on emotional hatred towards the other candidate.

To compare it with 1920 Germany, would we have to frame it around the
emotional state of both sides. Did the Weimar Republic focused their politics
on their hatred for Hitler and his voters? In contrast to the US election, not
only did that not happen but when Hitler got elected as Chancellor he did so
as part of a minority coalition (41%) where the Nazi party held a meekly three
out of eleven seats in the Papen-Nationalist-Hitler coalition. Voter focus
seems (as far as historians seems to imply) to be on the treaty and difference
between the four political parties.

------
leereeves
I thought Hacker News was above Nazi-comparisons, but if we are sinking to
that level, perhaps we should also compare similarities between left-wing
groups engaging in politically motivated acts of violence and the Nazi
brownshirts.

For example, consider the group UC Berkeley Chancellor Nicholas Dirks called:

> more than 100 armed individuals clad all in black who utilized paramilitary
> tactics to engage in violent, destructive behavior designed to shut [Milo's
> speech] down.

[http://news.berkeley.edu/2017/02/02/campus-condemns-
violence...](http://news.berkeley.edu/2017/02/02/campus-condemns-violence-
defends-free-speech/)

(But I'd rather we avoid Nazi comparisons altogether. They can be an effective
way for an author to get attention but they can be used by both sides and they
rarely lead to useful discussion.)

~~~
more_original
> I thought Hacker News was above Nazi-comparisons

> [makes Nazi-comparison]

Edit: Parent changed

> Downvoted without response? I guess I shouldn't be surprised, groups that
> resort to tactics like those at Berkeley are hardly above trying to silence
> discussion here with downvotes.

into

> (But I'd rather we avoid Nazi comparisons altogether. They can be an
> effective way for an author to get attention but they can be used by both
> sides and they rarely lead to useful discussion.)

The latter I can agree with.

~~~
leereeves
I'm willing to engage in discussion at any level the community prefers.

I'd rather not have it at this level but c'est la vie.

Response to update:

> The latter I can agree with.

Are we still flagging political posts here?

Perhaps we could agree to flag Nazi-comparisons, at least.

In that spirit, it's fair to downvote my Nazi-comparison, but only if you also
flag the main post.

