
New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $130K/yr - mataug
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/us/h-1b-visa-reform-bill-introduced-in-us-house-of-representatives/articleshow/56888616.cms
======
ones_and_zeros
Here is the summary straight from the horses mouth:
[https://lofgren.house.gov/uploadedfiles/high_skilled_bill_sx...](https://lofgren.house.gov/uploadedfiles/high_skilled_bill_sxs_and_analysis_-1-2017__final.pdf)

A few points:

\- This does not raise the salary requirement to $130k/yr. This only applies
to employers that do not want to do the extra paper work for "attestations
regarding recruitment and non-displacement of U.S. workers"

\- It takes a "market based" allocation strategy which allows "cash bonuses
and similar compensation" to be included. This is a joke.

\- Startups and small businesses will get 20% of the visas. It'll be
interesting to see how this is gamed

\- This does not fix the Corporate/Higher Ed partnership loophole

\- This does not fix the power imbalance between visa holders and employers

I personally don't see this bill going anywhere. Zoe just needs to look like
she is doing something.

~~~
gautambay
Thanks for this!

I've been on multiple H1B visas, at both large companies and startups. I've
also sponsored H1B visas as an employer. I would support this bill.

The headline is a classic example of sensational journalism by the Times of
India.

The $130k salary requirement applies only to "dependent employers", defined as
employers with over 15% of their workforce on H1Bs. This is clearly aimed at
reducing H1B misuse by TCS, Infosys, and their ilk.

The vast majority of companies who employ people on H1Bs aren't "dependent"
employers by this definition, and hence will be unaffected by the salary
increase rule. If anything, they'll benefit from more visas being available to
non-dependent employers.

Also, startups will likely benefit from the 20% requirement.

~~~
electrichead
Although a startup might only marginally benefit because a single one would be
a significant portion of their employees, right? So it would be over 15% right
off the bat if they have fewer than 7 people

~~~
filoleg
I think this 15% rule applies only to companies with more than 50 employees

------
readhn
Whoever is working on the bill is disconnected from reality and the damage it
is doing long term here.

Why's everyone so focused on IT? Everyone can learn how to code, it's not a
real science.. Oh it's hacker news :)

Now walk into any major university science department. See who the newly
minted PhD students are in biology, chemistry, physics, math ... Most are
foreigners. This bill will send them home after they graduate... USA will lose
here and other countries win big time on people with great science backgrounds
with brains who are willing to work and move the science forward. It will take
decades for American educational system to change (if it ever changes) and
generate the replacements.

~~~
mi100hael
_> Why's everyone so focused on IT? Everyone can learn how to code, it's not a
real science._

I think that's exactly why people are focusing on IT. The H-1B program is
meant to allow companies to hire foreigners with rare skills that are hard to
find domestically. In reality it's abused to import cheap labor and undercut
average American workers doing common work like building applications or
administering systems. There should be no problem continuing to hire PhDs and
other foreigners with actual unique skillsets at $130k.

~~~
readhn
The abuse of h1b program by IT firms is the issue that has to be separated out
and resolved on its own.

There is no reason why we should send a freshly graduated physics scientist
back to Uganda or whatever because he can't find an employer willing to pay
him/her some abstract 130k salary straight out of school (which is A LOT OF
MONEY).

Again, when I hire - I do it strictly based on skills and experience. If I
have to do a bit more paper work to get this talented guy work for us I'll do
it - but there is a limit. And at 130k limit a lot of these brains will flow
back overseas. It would be a huge mistake for USA to get rid of willing to
work just talent like that.

~~~
dukeluke
I don't see any reason why h1b visa holders shouldn't have a high bar to
reach. The whole point of the program is to bring the best of the best, not
the average or mediocre, which could likely be filled by an American
somewhere.

~~~
readhn
130k salary is absurdly high amount of money for people outside of IT and
finance. Stop living in a bubble. It will price out a lot of talent that will
be forced to leave the country. Wich is a huge mistake for American society.

~~~
user5994461
If that talent is really that much difficult to find locally, they'll pay it,
don't worry.

And if they don't, that doesn't make the situation any worse. It's impossible
to get a H1B VISA right now and they have zero chances to get one, because the
quota is ridiculously low and they are all taken by the Indian sweat shops, on
top of requiring 1-2 years ahead for the procedure.

------
caseymarquis
This makes sense from a distance. Such employees are supposed to be
specialists, not hired for the purpose of undercutting wages. I'm not in the
bay area, but if you're bringing in a specialist from another country because
you can't find one here, this sounds like the sort of wage that person ought
to have.

Whether this restriction makes sense in the first place is a different
question, but this does sound like it fits the spirit of the h1-b.

I'd be curious to hear an opposing claim on this as I don't know a great deal
about it and wonder if I'm missing something.

------
gregw2
I think the existing system foments a covert lie-rewarding fear-inducing form
of indentured servitude and depresses native nonmanagerial salaries of actual
programmers.

I was told early in my career by at least two CEOs that I shouldn't waste my
time doing programming (and should join the managerial class) because it would
be done overseas or by low cost labor onshore. I do think it's a bummer for
those hoping to move/live here from overseas and may slightly reduce US tech
industry competitiveness, but it looks to me to be a removal of a capital-
favoring wage-surpressing distortionary loophole in our immigration policy
that at the end of the day is probably a good thing.

------
hocuspocus
Color me surprised, I commented on many related threads recently but this
sounds actually pretty good!

$130k is maybe a little high for seed stage startups but given that we're
talking about relocating engineers to the most expensive region in the world,
I believe it's fair. And the path from F-1 to Green Card will solve companies
taking advantage of people on OPT status, at least partially.

~~~
pkd
Thing is that the whole of US isn't Silicon Valley or Seattle. Startups in
upcoming hubs like Portland and Boulder will suffer(sic) because the salary
requirements are too high for them to satisfy given the living costs.

It basically means that the only companies who are gonna be able to hire
through H1Bs are the big cos or unicorns.

~~~
scarface74
Companies may have to do something unimaginable and invest in their employees
who may not have the exact skill set they need and offer them training or give
them time to ramp up....

~~~
angry_octet
And yet that delay is antithetical to starting to work in a new area,
innovating rapidly, etc. The ability to attract and retain employees from
anywhere around the world is a massive advantage, and this sounds like a
disincentive program.

I agree with you that training is part of the solution, but for niche
applications that can be pretty hard, you're talking people who have studied
for years. So if you are doing work like that, why wouldn't you set up in a
country without such restrictions? E.g. Vancouver.

How about caps on the percentage of H1Bs/L1s in any company (e.g. 15%), and
the ability for H1B workers to transfer employers?

~~~
scarface74
"but for niche applications that can be pretty hard, you're talking people who
have studied for years."

How many people that have studied for years to become experts at niche
applications are being paid only $60,000 a year - the current minimum for H1B
Visas? I would think that getting such an expert is well worth $130,000 a
year.

~~~
angry_octet
Agree that 60k is too low. But 130k is too high.

Consider someone who has just finished their PhD in a relevant area. You want
to employ them in your startup in e.g. Orlando, where the cost of living is
much lower than SF. Maybe 80k is reasonable. But you'll have to pay a 50k
premium.

Or you could set up an office in Montreal. And then your tech team will come
to Florida for a 3 month code camp every December anyway...

~~~
frgtpsswrdlame
>Consider someone who has just finished their PhD in a relevant area.

If they're hiring fresh grads, it should be an American. There's plenty of
them.

~~~
readhn
There are not. By the time you graduate with a masters or PhD you often
accomplish a body of research work in a SPECIFIC field, have publications,
patents. So yes you are a "fresh" grad but with 5-10 published scientific
papers to your name. High tech scientific companies often don't have a luxury
of choosing between multiple qualified candidates. Often you have 1-2
qualified applicants ( which takes a long time to find) who are a good fit and
often they have foreign backgrounds. Why? I don't know, may be it has
something to do with poor American education system? Which noone is interested
in fixing it seems.

~~~
frgtpsswrdlame
If they're this incredibly rare then I don't see why paying them 130k is a big
deal.

------
trustfundbaby
Well intentioned but misses the mark.

If this had been in place when I came to the US, me and many of my friends
(petroleum, chemical, electrical and software engineers and possibly nurses,
doctors, anesthesiologists and doctors) would have had to have left the US
after getting STEM degrees here. Instead of this, just ban skilled immigration
to the US and be upfront about not wanting immigrant skilled labor. Everyone
will understand. It's your country.

However, if you want to fix the problem, however, let h1b workers move
companies as freely as green card holders without having to "transfer" the
visa from company to company, and let holders apply for a green card on their
own after a year or two. Simple.

Solves the supply problem and balances the relationship between the employer
and h1b holder to more closely match a normal employment relationship, not one
where they hold all the cards and can literally decide your fate at a moments
notice, forcing you to work for lower wages just so they can maybe ..
eventually ... sponsor your green card or make you do more work than you
should for the same reason.

------
webmaven
This is a good but flawed move.

In very high COL places like NYC and SFBA $130k is barely a living wage unless
you can put up with a 2h commute.

OTOH, in low COL markets (eg. KC) this eliminates H1-Bs from consideration for
most entry-level positions.

For many markets in the middle (an example doesn't come to mind, perhaps Los
Angeles?) where $130k+ is a decent salary for an entry-level position this new
minimum works.

What's really needed to make H1-B work on a national scale for a broad range
of professions while still limiting abuse is something like a COL adjustment,
or scaling the minimum with some formula like 75% of the median salary, or the
30th percentile, or something similar.

Edited to add: I am assuming that no more than 30% of your salary is spent on
rent, you save 10% of your salary, that you are working in downtown San
Francisco, that your commute is under 30m door to door via public
transportation, and you live in a 2-bedroom apartment.

Also: [https://smartasset.com/mortgage/what-is-the-cost-of-
living-i...](https://smartasset.com/mortgage/what-is-the-cost-of-living-in-
san-francisco)

~~~
thr1234567
> NYC and SFBA $130k

Really ? Surely it can't be that expensive ?

~~~
aianus
It's not. Maybe he's assuming a stay at home wife and/or children which would
be a stretch on $130k, it's true.

You can live well and have savings as a single guy on $130k in both those
areas.

~~~
thr1234567
How do the non-tech denizens manage ? I thought waitresses (and people in
similar low-skilled jobs) barely made $30k ?

~~~
j_r_f
Yeah 130k being barely a living wage is an absurd thing to say. Tons and tons
of people in NYC do not make 130k — even half of it would be a great salary
for most — and they seem to still be living just fine.

~~~
webmaven
Well, to me, a living wage isn't just _living just fine_ , but actually
managing to get ahead, at least generationaly.

~~~
scaryclam
"living just fine" is pretty much the definition of living wage. Having extra
is having more than living wage. Having enough to get ahead is earning a
really nice wage.

------
amluto
I think this is the entirely wrong solution because it misunderstands the
problem.

The problem isn't that the H1B requirements are off a bit. The problem is that
H1B visa holders are essentially indentured servants. Say you're a foreigner
who applies for an H1B job. Your employer does a bunch of paperwork, gets you
an H1B visa, and imports you. Now you can't quit because you can't get a new
job. Of _course_ you get underpaid, and of _course_ companies love their H1B
workers.

The US should scrap the whole system and replace it with some kind of merit-
or point-based visa system for skilled foreigners. The replacement system
should have _portable_ visas so that the foreigners aren't inherently cheaper
to employ than citizens, permanent residents, and holders of less broken
visas.

(Frankly, I agree a bit with the anti-immigrant save-our-job perspective right
now. Citizens, permanent residents, etc do have an unfair disadvantage to H1B
workers because of the broken structure of the H1B visa.)

~~~
nathanvanfleet
Is it better to be TN?

~~~
jgh
TN is better if you're Canadian, but you have to do some legal wizardry if you
want to get a green card.

------
mavelikara
While TCS, Infosys etc figure prominently in the H-1B debate, I think this new
bill does not affect them as much as it is made out to be. The real downside
is for staffing firms (popularly known as "desi consulting shops"), mostly run
by Indian-Americans.

TCS employs 370K+ employees worldwide and had revenue of $16B+ in 2016. They
might have gotten 3K H-1Bs each year. If they know how to run projects
staffing 370K employees with 3K H-1Bs per year, they will figure out a way to
run it with 500. Also, with that kind of revenue, they will pay the $130K if
it comes to that.

H-1Bs, I suspect, have a power law distribution. TCS, Infosys etc top the list
of H-1B visas per year, but there is a long tail of companies which get
allotted few visas every year. Some of these in the long tail are high tech
firms in real need of skill and are the ones paying appropriately for it
(AmaFaceGoodSoft etc). But I think the larger cohort are the staffing shops
which bend the rules often and pay low.

------
dandare
A quick calculation: $60,000 in 1989 adjusted for inflation equals $116,132.42
in 2016. This changes the narative a lot.

~~~
webmaven
Rather than adjusting for inflation, try adjusting for productivity instead:

[http://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/](http://www.epi.org/productivity-
pay-gap/)

~~~
randyrand
The productivity gap is really an economics understanding gap.

The whole idea is that when productivity goes up, prices go down! To suggest
wages should go up when productivity goes up is a complete misunderstanding of
economics. It's stupid. You only need one! Prices going down is how the free
market adjust for productivity.

If they wanted to make a fair comparison, chart a graph between productivity
and the cost to buy a basket of goods in real money. You'll find wages have
gone up! Roughly the rate of GDP growth per year! Shocking!!! /s

~~~
dandare
Good point. Also, wages are not disposable income - the government
redistributes more wealth than it used to. The number on your payslip may not
be bigger but you can afford more food and health care. Any graph should take
this into consideration.

------
trollpan2
This is a blatant hypocrisy on American side. They will sue the shit out of
Indian Solar, Pharma, Angri industries if it has competitive prices but won't
allow india/emerging nations to do the same in their market. Emerging nations
are bullied by developed nations for a long time and the saga goes on. I get
that H1b visa was used to provide cheap services but globalization works both
way. Powerful nations can't just enact the laws which only works in their
favor.

~~~
Dylan16807
I don't understand your claim of hypocrisy. What is America saying is bad, but
also doing?

And what suing are you talking about?

~~~
trollpan2
Basically USA has long history of suing Indian companies which competes with
their product in Indian market.Some examples.. (1) The US Said India's Solar
Power Plan Discriminates Against American Companies — And the WTO Agrees -
[https://news.vice.com/article/the-us-said-indias-solar-
power...](https://news.vice.com/article/the-us-said-indias-solar-power-plan-
discriminates-against-american-companies-and-the-wto-agrees)

(2) Indian pharma companies legally trying to make cheap generic version.
Nope, big boss USA doesn't like it because it is against 'globalization'.

Pfizer Inc. (PFE) Keeps Suing Generics Makers In India
[http://www.ibtimes.com/pfizer-inc-pfe-keeps-suing-
generics-m...](http://www.ibtimes.com/pfizer-inc-pfe-keeps-suing-generics-
makers-india-even-though-its-hopeless-legal-1374655)

and the list goes on.

But when Indian companies tries to compete in the market by providing cheap
services, Nope. Sorry, Can't do.

Basically the post world war II history is all about enacting the laws to the
maintain the hegemony of selected few elite countries. S. Korea and Japan were
lucky in that regards as sympathy of west was on their side but emerging
countries like China, India and Brazil are screwed.

------
johnloeber
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is just a proposal that has to get ratified
by the House of Congress, right?

It's noteworthy that Zoe Lofgren, the sponsor of this bill, has attempted to
pass similar bills before, which were not successful. See e.g.
[https://www.us-immigration.com/blog/bill-fails-in-the-
house-...](https://www.us-immigration.com/blog/bill-fails-in-the-house-no-
green-cards-for-stem-graduates)

~~~
baytrailcat
That is right. Forget voting, this bill may not even go to the Committee. I am
not sure if this worth all this hysteria. If it is proposed by a ranking
Republican member of the House Judiciary Committee, we will know it is
serious.

~~~
gregw2
Exec orders might be coming.
[https://news.google.com/news/amp?caurl=http%3A%2F%2Famp.usat...](https://news.google.com/news/amp?caurl=http%3A%2F%2Famp.usatoday.com%2Fstory%2F97240588%2F#pt0-505341)

------
xiaoma
> _" The raised salary level - to more than $130,000 - is more than double the
> current H-1B minimum wage of $60,000, which was established in 1989 and has
> since remained unchanged."_

This is interesting. Adjusting for inflation, $60K in 1989 is worth 117K in
today's dollars. This adjustment is essentially just a compensation for
inflation.

------
reacharavindh
Isn't this discriminatory on states with lower cost of living? 130k is not
very high in Bay area for big companies and non entry level engineers..
However, at emerging cities in the US, that may be unattainable until say
director positions for now.. So government powers more immigration and bias to
CA at the cost of other cities developing cities? (Disclaimer) H1B from big co
in the east coast, senior SE making 110k. Will make > 130k if bonus and stock
compensation could be included though.

~~~
perseusprime11
I don't think we as a country have figured out cost of living adjustments to
compensation and taxes in general. I know first hand that there are certain
jobs that pay you very similarly no matter where you are. So the guy in NYC
pays more in taxes and cost of living while the gal in Texas saves a lot more
especially with no state income tax, low property taxes, and lower cost of
living.

~~~
marcosdumay
> I don't think we as a country have figured out cost of living adjustments to
> compensation and taxes in general.

I'm not sure you should. There's a reason for the cost of living to change so
much from one region to another, and compensating that change with government
money can have severe economic impacts.

~~~
perseusprime11
Aren't we already compensating by virtue of tax deductions at federal level
and allowing certain states to not tax income?

------
tn13
How can an Indian or Chinese immigrate to USA under the current system?

Legally there is simply no way besides marriage. These people who are actually
very skilled have a very good history of assimilating in the mainstream and
being successful in USA are discriminated against.

As a student you have to lie that you will return to India, as a H1B you have
to lie that you intend to return back. As H4 you have to sit quietly at home
like an obedient biblical wife.

At the root of H1B is the a deep systemic hatred and racism against Asians.

~~~
yangchi
the 130K cut only applies to H1 dependent employers: those company that has at
least 15% H1 employees.

So this pretty much means, if you are not in tech, most likely you won't be
affected, as your employer most likely won't have 15% H1 employees.

If you are in tech, and is in one of thoes legit tech companies, most likely
you are also covered, as you will make 130K. Your employers may need to be a
bit smart when it comes to meeting the cut, e.g., it may need to reduce some
of your RSUs/EFTTs and put them into your salary. But you should make it.

The new proposal doesn't say much about H4s. But I didn't really read much
details of the new proposal. As of today, H4s can have EAD if their H1 spouses
apply green card and get i-140 approved.

At the root, we have this new proposal today exactly because Indian companies
try to abuse the current H1 system. I know stories of both Chinese and Indians
got effed up by the H1 system, real stories from real friends in my life,
including my wife. I blame Indian outsourcing companies as much as I blame the
system, to be honest.

As a student, on F1 visa, if your intention is to stay, honestly you shouldn't
get the F1 visa in the first place. If you have to lie about this intention to
DHS, that's your own problem. H1, on the other hand, is a dual-intention visa.
So you don't need to lie about stay or return. That's why H1s are allowed to
apply green card.

~~~
tn13
> So you don't need to lie about stay or return.

Dual intent does not mean you can tell the visa officer you will request the
employer to also sponsor green card. That will most certainly get your visa
rejected.

------
itshoptx
This increase in salary is not for the H1-B workers benefit; rather, it's to
make hiring them more expensive so American workers will be considered first--
as they should be.

I would support any law that REQUIRED American companies to hire Americans
first and then consider foreigners ONLY if no qualified Americans can be found
in the 50 US states.

If America wants to do good by her workers, she needs to put Americans first.
Always and foremost. Let India, Vietnam, and China take care of their own
people first.

H1-B visas have always been bad for American workers. And they always will be.
I would raise the minimum to $250k, were it me. Very few companies will pony
up the currency to play that game. If companies were to hire Americans again
FIRST, as they should have been doing, perhaps American primary and secondary
schools as well as universities would have stronger STEM programs. No one is
going to suggest STEM to their children if they have to compete with
foreigners.

On H1-B and desire to immigrate here... I'm not opposed to immigration if it's
done the old fashioned way like my dad did it. Come here, apply, wait your
tenure for green card, and eventual citizenship. Don't come here for an
American passport, come here because you want to be an American.

~~~
umanwizard
The reason top companies (FB, Google, major SV startups, etc.) exist primarily
in the US is because the US is able to attract talent from all over the world.

If these companies had never been able to hire the best people, there wouldn't
now be the same companies hiring more Americans. They would simply exist in
other countries, instead of the United States.

By the way, I work at one of these companies and have had frank discussions
about compensation with many of my coworkers and I can guarantee you that H1-B
holders are NOT being paid less than Americans.

Obviously none of this applies to body shops like Infosys and Tata.

> On immigrating here... I'm not opposed to immigration if it's done the old
> fashioned way like my dad did it. Come here, apply, wait your tenure for
> green card, and eventual citizenship.

This suggests to me that you don't actually know what an H1-B visa is. Getting
an H1-B _is_ the first step to coming here, waiting for green card, etc. How
else do you propose people do it? Out of curiosity, what papers did your dad
have that allowed him to come?

~~~
itshoptx
I understand the nuances of immigration and why people seek the worker
visas...

My dad moved here from Europe in the early 60s, went through INS, got a green
card, a job, and 6 months later was drafted into the Army and went to Vietnam.
Unlike Americans at the time, my dad was given the choice to accept the draft
or go back to Europe. He accepted the draft, fought in Vietnam, was injured,
and EARNED his citizenship the hard way. My dad was a stellar man in many
ways. He exemplified the best work ethic I have ever seen and likely will ever
see. He went from being a civilian handyman and cook to E9 in the military
(only 1% make this grade by law) to earning almost $200k a year before his
death.

~~~
umanwizard
What does "went through INS" mean? What papers or visa did your dad have that
gave him the right to live here, and how was it meaningly different from an
H1-B ?

~~~
fadelakin
From what I read, I don't think OP knows. My dad came here on a J-1 visa as a
student which meant my mum, my sisters and me came here on a J-2 visa since we
were dependent on his visa status.

It took us 10 years of constant applying, thousands of dollars spent before we
got our green cards. I still remember my interview because I got my green card
in 2015 and it was the most invasive thing I've ever gone through. I still
even remember all the interviews we had to do before we got our visas to come
to America.

In my opinion, I don't think OP really knows how difficult it is to get to
America in the first place as an immigrant. It's not as simple as the media
makes it out to be.

------
giis
I never visited U.S and heard about H1-B and its abuse by Indian Body-shops.
Let me know if below understanding is correct or not:

1) So far, Indian Body-shops paid low salary compared to original one. (for
example, say instead of 80K/yr ,Indian Body-shops paid 40K/yr and kept the
remaining for themselves)

2) Now with new bill, increased base amount to 130K/yr and also ensures this
goes the employee?

Is that correct?

~~~
gregw2
Yes, Indian body shops have charged high fees >80k while not even remitting
even close to the 60k back to the employee. I have witnessed this. I have also
witnessed employers rescuing people from such body shops by hiring them for
60k on h1b for jobs that could absolutely be done by a u.s. citizen (web
programming) and keeping their salary at 60k for many years despite growing
skill. The system is broken and abused... unless you are the employer trying
to work the angles to pay less.

Regarding question 2, it does bump up the $ amount but I am not sure it
protects the worker any more than currently. Also other posters indicate the
proposed 130k only applies to a subset of h1bs for whom less paperwork is
filed, so i'm frankly not sure it goes far enough.

~~~
giis
Thanks for the details. imo, this will have more impact on Indian body shops
profit and shareholders more than affecting employee's and that's why greedy
IT companies are more upset.

Its good for U.S IT professionals, since hopefully it will end discrimination
based on low-pay. Good for India's IT professionals, because they need to
prove their worth based on technical skills and not just cheap labor.

I also hope visa interview system get more technical (i assume its not
technical atm)- instead of getting interviewed by someone with-in the company,
candidates need to be evaluated by independent third party to allow only right
candidates.

------
ebbv
Reading the article it doesn't sound like this bill does anything to make it
easier for the employee to find a different job once they are here (e.g.
Making it easier for other employers to take on sponsorship of the H1-B visa.)

The article says this bill makes it easier for students to get a path to
citizenship but doesn't say anything about H1-B workers.

I also don't think the salary requirement is necessarily a win for people who
want to come over here as an H1-B worker. The gap is so big it is likely that
employers will find someone over here rather than eat the $60k salary increase
in some cases. It will be a win for anyone who was going to be close to that
new $130k minimum where a big company may just soak the increase.

We really need to replace the H1-B program with something that empowers the
employees and allows them to switch jobs and have a clear and easy path to
citizenship.

~~~
xtreme
> The article says this bill makes it easier for students to get a path to
> citizenship but doesn't say anything about H1-B workers.

My understanding of the text is that it just makes student visas "dual-
intent". This would allow prospective students to get an F-1 visa without
having to prove that they have no intention of staying back after completing
their degree. It's an open secret that a large percentage of students actually
want to work after graduating and many intend to naturalize eventually. This
would spare them having to lie on the application. Other than this change, the
bill does not do anything to make it easier for students.

~~~
verst
You currently cannot file for an adjustment of status to legal permanent
resident while on a F-1 visa.

This also includes employment-based Greencard. Currently you would need to
obtain a H-1B before you could apply for employment-based permanent residency
as EB-1, EB-2, EB-3 etc (assuming you reside in the US).

My understanding is that this removes the common pattern of having to get a
H-1B before being eligible for employment-based immigration petitions.
Additionally experience obtained during university and on the F-1 Optional
Practical Training (OPT) would count towards the experience requirements for
EB-1, EB-2, EB-3, etc.

------
cobookman
Looking at the following database of h1b salaries:
[http://h1bdata.info/highestpaidcompany.php](http://h1bdata.info/highestpaidcompany.php)

It seems like only 63 companies have an average salary above 130k and 1937
companies have average salaries below 130k.

With only 11641 H1b's being at companies with an average salary above 130k and
476425 below the cap.

So this is going to free up a bunch of h1b's at the top end of the sepctrum.

~~~
ScalaFan
There are at least four stakeholders in this situation:

1\. The American company that wants to save money

2\. The Middleman (e.g. Wipro etc) that wants to make money on the wage
arbitrage

3\. The foreign worker on the H1B

4\. The American citizen that doesn't want to be replaced by the foreign
worker

I'm all for cutting out (2) and making it easier for the foreign worker
(provided they have the skills) to become an American and not beholden to (2).
However, I don't like the American companies saving money on the backs of
American employees losing their jobs. How to balance everything is the tough
question.

~~~
NotSammyHagar
Yes, #4 is the first problem to handle. I have this idea there's at least a
dual world here. (a) IT workers that get replaced by H1Bs and are often asked
to train their replacements (more operations and putting things together), (b)
big software co that writes handmade software, like Microsoft, Amazon, Google,
a startup. It's category (a) where people lose jobs and can't find them,
because they are more easily replaced? It's category (a) that needs
protection, for cateagory (b) we need way more workers. I just heard today
that seattle has 11,000 open software jobs. 11k is a lot of jobs.

~~~
umanwizard
A lot of people don't understand this concept.

People even apply it on a more local level, like "why don't Amazon and MS hire
more UW grads instead of bringing in transplants from all over the country?"

Amazon could hire 50% of UW CS grads and MS the other 50% and it wouldn't be
enough to fill their needs.

------
xtreme
One problem with a very high minimum salary is that due to the disparity in
cost of living, only companies that could afford H1B workers would be from a
few cities like SF and NYC. As a side effect, it would increase the diversity
of those cities and not anywhere else. I don't think it is ideal - it
concentrates immigrants into a small location; and does not allow immigrants
to live in a place of their choice.

~~~
jupp0r
I think you are mixing up cause and effect - it's not easier from a financial
standpoint for companies in NY to pay high salaries, it just happens that
companies who can afford high salaries are located there because it's easier
to get top talent at those locations.

------
matt_s
Really what they need to change are the accounting loopholes. When I was
working at a large employer most of the offshored work was under 'services
contracts' where the legal wordings were such that it looks like services are
being rendered for a specific purpose. This is to avoid having those people
show up as labor on a P&L which affects the corprate bottom line.

What actually happens is behind these agreements are a team of people with an
onshore presence and the actual employees overseeing the on/offshore work
prefer to work with the same set of people. Once you get a team and rhythm
going on work, it made things easier to predict. So both sides want to game
this 'services contract' to have the same team for literally years.

If they make corporations count all of the on/offshore people as contractual
labor in their accounting practices, which is what they actually are, then
companies will be hit negatively in their P&L statements. These are
essentially jobs which used to be done onshore so they certainly weren't
'talent can't be found' types of roles.

~~~
koolba
Contractual labor _is_ a service. If it wasn't, it'd be employment. Both show
up the same way on a P&L statement; they're both expenses.

It's all the additional regulation and requirements for employment (healthcare
coverage, disability insurance, termination protection) that companies want to
avoid by hiring contractors.

------
cryptozeus
For all those worried about their job, just remember this is just a bill that
was introduced. It takes around 200 days for bill to pass and become a law.
Also 96% of the bills die during the process.

[https://www.quora.com/How-long-does-it-take-to-pass-a-
bill-i...](https://www.quora.com/How-long-does-it-take-to-pass-a-bill-in-the-
US)

------
jankotek
I think this is great news.

Right now it is almost impossible to get working visa in US, unless you work
for a sweatshop.

Minimal salary makes it easier for small business to hire foreigners.

> _The legislation sets aside 20 percent of the annually allocated H-1B visas
> for small and start-up employers (50 or fewer employers) to ensure small
> businesses have an opportunity to compete for high-skilled workers_

told you so ;)

------
Zigurd
There are some good ideas in this, but not enough. While not everyone will
share this view, it seems like most people agree visas for highly-paid, high-
value R&D workers are good, and filling up body shops with seatwarmers is not
good. The question is: How to make H1-B unattractive to body shops?

A high minimum salary is definitely one way to do it, but, as another
commenter pointed out, there remain loopholes. Another way would be to auction
H1-Bs, with a high minimum bid. Another would be to prioritize positions that
are not contract-labor positions. If it works right, and expands the tech
industry, it should be possible to implement the supposed intent of H1-B-to
get people into the country that we don't have.

But, unless the barriers are financial, they will get lawyered into nullity.

------
wmccullough
lol I'm a senior engineer and I don't make that much annually :(

~~~
Clubber
You need to know your value. I don't know your ability, but you are probably
being underpaid.

~~~
wmccullough
I agree, but I'll leave it at that since this is very public. However, I'd
counter that the average Senior Engineer salary is 112k/year; according to
Glass Door anyway.

[https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/senior-software-
engineer-...](https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/senior-software-engineer-
salary-SRCH_KO0,24.htm)

~~~
fps
I can't say for certain why, but GlassDoor is significantly lower than reality
for positions in my area (Boston, MA.) Of the jobs I see advertised for Senior
developers, most of them are in the $140-$170K range these days. Assuming that
glassdoor is accurate, perhaps the issue is that people who stay in positions
more than a few years fall behind new hires because yearly raises don't keep
up with market rates.

~~~
sjg007
That and as you get older with more responsibilities many people don't jump
ship as often for higher wages. And the higher wage thing is a fairly recent
(5-10 year) thing. We can thank Millenials and Vic investment pushing salaries
up from bottom. That being said, if you want the money, try to find a 10x
company winner take all in growth mode. Life is otherwise too short. Finance
also pays well.

------
comments_db
Bodyshops like Infosys, TCS and Wipro should be banned or heavily regulated
from exploiting the H1B visa. I don't support them. They don't help anyone but
the shareholders of the companies. Americans, Indians, Chinese, Govt. and
Startups are equally screwed.

'Best and the Brightest' arguments can't be on the same line as $60,000 annual
compensation premise. I'm not against people earning a better living. But it's
not so complicated to see that something is broken here.

Me - East Indian on H1B visa with both degrees from reputed US schools (full
ride). Multiple patents and publications. Left leaning. 6+ corp experience and
3+ startup exp.

------
ryan0318
Well I think $130k/year is unfair for companies located outside of california,
Newyork, MA, Chicago. I think this bill would benefit companies in those
locations where cost of living is very high. What about a company in North
Dakota or west Virginia. I don't think any company can afford 130k/year in
these states, rather they will outsource their jobs(paying 30% tax). I think
salary limit should be set based on the state and it should be set as-least
110k/year for other states where cost of living is very low. Well I think This
bill is introduced by democrat to help his state.

~~~
jupp0r
What makes you think that it's easier for a company in CA to afford 130k
salaries? Costs are even higher there, also for companies. It's rather the
other way around - companies paying those salaries are located in CA, NY, etc.

------
zaidf
This is such no-brainer reform. I really hope the Valley comes together and
crushes the H1-Bs used up by employees of Wipro, Infosys etc. at the expense
of much more exceptional people employed by amazon, google etc.

------
oarla
Does this affect existing H1B visa holders working in USA?

------
yoloboy
I think this is going to drive more jobs out of US. Corporations will seek out
opening new off-shore offices, in Asia, Canada and EU.

This doesn't change the fact that we don't produce enough skilled workers to
meet our demands. And in Trump's America it's not going to get any better.

Not all speciality occupations pay as high as tech, and it's going to affect
them 'biggly'.

Immigrant hate is what this is cultivating.

~~~
jetru
This is a Democrat proposal

------
deskamess
" Providing employment and travel authorization to those with approved
employment-based petitions awaiting visa availability, so they have similar
protections to those provided portability under the American Competitiveness
in the 21st Century Act "

What exactly does this mean? Can people with approved petitions move freely
between employers without redoing a labor cert?

------
tn13
Why do these bills make so much noise ? Isn't it the case that any senator,
congressman can introduce the bill they want ? Shouldn't we take them
seriously only after they have passed committee review ? This is probably 4th
such bill in last 2 weeks I suppose.

This bill has even affected stock markets in India!

------
DiamondDiamond
It seems like, in future, most jobs above 130k will go to Non American workers
and on the other hand the american workers will be left with low paying jobs
(that is under 130K) or American worker < $130K jobs Non American Workers >
$130k I would not support such a bill.

~~~
Dylan16807
What, you think companies are going to hire non-Americans for a higher price
just for the fun of it?

------
lokithor
It'll be interesting to see if this takes effect on existing employees. Or
only new applicants.

------
TheSageMage
Draft text of the bill:
[https://lofgren.house.gov/uploadedfiles/high_skilled_bill_sx...](https://lofgren.house.gov/uploadedfiles/high_skilled_bill_sxs_and_analysis_-1-2017__final.pdf)

------
davvolun
Completely unrelated.

Having never viewed India Times' website before, can I say, I really like
their method of pulling in infographics and backing up their statements. I'd
like to see a lot more of that in the States.

------
ksajadi
A Bill? Can we not just decree this down with an Executive Order or something?

------
capkutay
Correct me if I'm wrong but if this is proposed by a democratic congresswoman,
isn't it unlikely to go into effect versus what I assume would be a more
aggressive reform by the Republican party?

------
randyrand
This is only $13,000 more than $60,000 in 1989 inflation adjusted to 2016 -
$116,132. (1989 is the year this minimum wage was mandated).

Assuming the past law was reasonable, this increase also seems reasonable.

------
jestinjoy1
Question from an Indian:

In India, this bill is projected as a move by Trump to limit otsiders getting
IT job in US. But this bill is moved by a democrat who also moved a bill
against travel ban!

What can I infer from this?

------
pastefka
Just to add to the conversation: recently, I analyzed some of the H-1B data
and concluded that if you want to get an H-1B visa, you should get your visa
certified in March via Indian outsourcing companies that are located in New
York City, hire programmer analysts, pay out a base salary above $75,000. You
can find the article here:
[https://www.datacamp.com/community/blog/data-h1b-visa](https://www.datacamp.com/community/blog/data-h1b-visa)
.

------
Vampires123433
Fixing the F1 visa loophole will also reduce tuition costs for American
students.

It's simple supply/demand micro-economics.

~~~
wdcgu
This is absurd. Most F1 students pay full tuition in the state and private
colleges, whereas Americans are eligible for need base aid. F1 students are
effectively subsidizing American students.

------
thr1234567
This actually looks very reasonable.

------
alecco
Hopefully the industry will reinvent itself and VCs fund more overseas
startups.

~~~
awinder
If H1B salary restrictions are a big part of what you're doing as a small
startup, there's probably more wrong than that. This move should be hitting
large, established firms way, way harder

------
Shivetya
so is this catching up or exceeding the rate of inflation? How was this salary
number not tied to inflation or another index?

If anything it seems to me to be a benefit to those seeking employment who
have real skills and ability.

~~~
nicolas_t
If the $60,000 from 1989 had been indexed on inflation, it would be $115,000
now. So, 130k doesn't seem so unreasonable. Of course, that does exclude
states and cities with a lower cost of living.

It would really make more sense to just index it to inflation or even better
to the cost of live of the city where the employee would work (but that would
potentially leave some loopholes)

~~~
Clubber
>just index it to inflation

It's so that politicians can fight every few years it needs to be raised and
say, "vote for me, I fight for wages." On the other side of their mouth, on
the years they don't fight for an increase, they can go to businesses, "donate
to me, or I might have to fight to raise minimum wage this year."

The minimum wage fight a few years ago is a prime example of this.

------
tinalee
How about H1-B cap-exempt candidates, professors, doctors and etc...?

------
vostok
Hopefully this will free up some H1B visa space for small companies.

------
didibus
Is the a data on why skilled immigrants on H1-B accept lower wages?

~~~
raitom
Still better than staying in their shitty country + hope to become a US
citizen one day.

~~~
didibus
Maybe for some, but I'm working in the US because of the higher wages only.
And I'd probably hustle my way to a even higher salary if I could compete by
freely switching job. So I was curious if there's data around that. It seems
to me more like the natural balance of offer and demand with H1B is broken, as
an employer can get high skilled workers, and then lock them in for multiple
years without needing to compete salary wise anymore.

I think there's a lot more H1B workers who are attracted to working in the US
because of those high wages and not because they want to flee their shitty
country. High skilled workers are not refugees. They could go to Canada or any
other western country, but they flock to the US if they can because of the
high salaries.

So my point is, I don't think it's that they accept a lower wage, the wage
offered to them is the highest they can get, it's more then in any other
country. The issue seems to be that the H1B artificially lower the American
wages, by not giving fare market competition on recruiting, which caps out
salaries for H1B workers. If that wasn't the case, the H1B workers might even
boost salaries, if companies tried to compete even more aggressively for the
highest skilled.

------
perseusprime11
FYI. The executive order may not be same as this bill.

------
known
TL;DR

We'll give H1B visa to Linus/Einstein;

------
hedora
The simplest way to fix this program is to let H1-B holders freely switch
jobs.

~~~
kinkrtyavimoodh
They already can, in the current system.

~~~
hedora
They have to reapply through their new employer. The applications can fail.

------
wdcgu
I love the blatant racism of HN. Everyone loves to rip on the H1-B, which is
predominantly used by Indians, but no one seems to give a shit about the TN
visa. Aren't those Canadians stealing your precious American jobs too?

~~~
grzm
_I love the blatant racism of HN._

Please don't generalize about the HN community in this way, particularly as
you choose to be part of it.

------
omouse
AWESOME

------
general_ai
Rumor is, Trump will issue a EO that is much smarter than this bill. In
particular it's supposed to replace the lottery system with a priority queue,
in which priority will be determined by salary. Combined with a cap, this will
lead the system to letting only the most expensive workers through. Not ideal,
but better than any alternative I have heard of so far.

------
douche
Sounds like this should have quite an impact on most of the companies that
hire a lot of H1Bs. Out of the list below, only Apple is hitting that salary
level with their average.

(edit) [http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2016-H1B-Visa-
Sponsor.aspx](http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2016-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx)

Also, damn, I knew TCS and Infosys were big, but I wasn't aware they were
quite that big.

~~~
hocuspocus
Fixed link: [http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2016-H1B-Visa-
Sponsor.aspx](http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2016-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx)

The new bill will take "cash bonuses and similar compensation" into account. A
rock bottom offer from FB/Google/... to new grads in the bay area is typically
160k.

~~~
lukeschlather
I don't believe it. Maybe if you add up all the initial grants, but those vest
over 4 years but I would bet a rock-bottom offer to a new grad is more like
$120k/year or even $100k/year.

Still ample for an H1B (well, under other bills) but I suspect this will put
significant upward pressure on salaries in the tech industry.

~~~
hocuspocus
Yes I was counting equity in, since they're publicly traded companies, RSUs
are pretty much equivalent to a cash bonus, at least to me...

But even without that, given the total compensation, I'm sure it'd be easy for
said companies to extend offers that are over $130k in cash on paper, since it
includes bonuses.

~~~
lukeschlather
Yes, RSUs are cash, but only when they vest. The way I see it, RSUs for those
companies are more like guaranteed raises than current compensation. So it
might be more accurate to say that a rock-bottom offer from such a company
guarantees you will rise to $160k/year total compensation within four years,
but the total compensation in your starting year will probably be less than
$130k.

------
sjg007
Here's a question. Two people in same job with similar performance one is h1b
the other a us citizen. Layoffs are coming. Who gets cut?

~~~
ryan0318
Well with HR point of view, US citizen gets cut. Not just in this scenario my
friend. I am in this business(recruitment). Let me give you another tough
scenario (forget H1b).

Two people in same job with similar performance one is US citizen who is
contracting and while other is US citizen who is full time with company. As we
know the contractor salary is very high.Layoffs are coming, But still HR will
fire full time US citizen who is getting less pay because to fire a full time
employee we need to wait till next lay offs or provide a big reason to fire
him. While on other hand you can fire Contractor any time without any
formalities.

My point is if you want to abuse H1b program you will abuse it no matter what.
It all depends on work culture(HR) of a COMPANY.

