

Ask HN: Should I go back to university? - Srenaeb

<i></i><i></i><i></i><i></i> <i>Abstract:</i>  <i></i><i></i><i></i><i></i>
recently laid off in a city with a huge wave of highly qualified people looking. Losing self confidence. Thinking about going back to school. Spouse still in university, but spouse's parents pay for tuitions. No debts whatsoever, no cars, only expense is rent and food. We will be 25 this year.<p><i>Education:</i> software development certification from technical school. GPA 80%. It was a really intensive program, doing 78 credits in 8 months, class from 9-5 M-F, with 1 month practicum at the end.<p><i>Work Exp:</i> total 3.5 years<p><i>(0)</i> month-long contract project at a really big Business Intelligence project. They liked the project.<p><i>(1)</i> 2 years at a small company about 50 employees, small IT dept of 4, did everything from ASP.NET web apps to VB.NET/VB6 backend apps to SQL db admin to site cross browser compatibility stuff. Left after months of ridiculous unpaid overtime. Gave them 2 months notice to find, and train the guy.<p><i>(2)</i> 1.5 years at a smaller company, about 30, as the sole programmer, writing C# in-house use apps and stuff to go with our SQL database (that I installed and configured). Developed business ideas for them, made custom software to those goals. Laid off along with 7 other people based on seniority. Nothing shameful there.<p><i>Obvious weakness:</i> my technical school taught us how to work, how to think like a programmer and how to debug problems. But it's still technical school. I will not be able to answer technical questions if I have not used that particular bit of knowledge before. I know nothing about lower level architectural stuff.<p><i>Redeeming Qualities:</i> I work hard. I can look up stuff I don't know how to do quickly. I come up with good business ideas, I can think from my manager's POV and our clients' to reach a fair comprimise. End users really like me because I not only fix problems they find, I will actively find out what I can do for them. I'm fiercely loyal to whatever company I work for, even when they're cheap and abusive.<p><i>Bottom line:</i> I know I can be really good at my job once I'm on the job. I just think my lack of proper education and low level knowledge about computer science will prevent me from being seen as such at interviews or resume screening. Going back to school can fix that.<p><i>However:</i> my spouse is still in school. I went to university straight out of high school with 87% GPA, but dropped out after the first year because of academic immaturity (ie: I thought university was a load of crap--no one gives a shit about you and you're just a chequeing account number. The textbooks are meant for the profs to profit rather than for you to learn, and the profs clearly have other things to do way more important than teaching you. I was going to all the classes but never handed in any assignments. Teenage angst. I was taking arts and foreign languages. This was before I even touched any programming.). I don't know if I have the discipline to do it still. I may go back to get all angry about the bullshit institution again and shut down again like I did. But I managed to get through the technical school well, because I love programming, I love it to death.<p>....advice?
======
cjenkins
One thing to try might be to put together a portfolio of some kind. This way
you can show people that, yes, I can do X, Y and Z and here's the proof. Good
recommendations certainly don't hurt either.

I'm going to take a guess that just straight resume submitting isn't going to
go so well. You'll likely get filtered out on the lack of college degree. This
means you'll have to actively and creatively pursue getting in touch with a
real life person to at least start the conversation on why you should be
considered.

I kind of waffle on the more education part of the question. It really depends
on where you would go to school. If you can get into a really good program,
then it's well worth it as you'll learn a lot from the profs but even more
from your fellow students. If you end up in a mediocre program, you'll
probably end up frustrated like you did before. I wish I could give you some
magical advice on how to determine a good vs. bad program, but I have no idea.
(For myself, Ohio State was OK, I didn't put in enough work to get the most
out of it. Carnegie Mellon Software Engineering was fantastic. I felt like the
dumbest person in the room many times and that's great for learning.)

~~~
Srenaeb
You're completely spot on. I talked to a couple people in difference
industries, and they're all receiving tonnes of resumes from big name
companies with degrees. Everyone's getting laid off here....

The portfolio idea sounds good. I do have a small set of hobby programming
projects that aren't marketable, but at least I will have something to show in
lieu of a degree.

------
shimon
It seems like you still want to work in the same field, and are mainly
considering school because of the credential it offers. While that addresses
one reason employers might be throwing away your resume, it isn't on its own
enough to make you stand out.

The most effective way to stand out is through a personal connection.

So instead of going to school, maybe you should try to meet a lot of
interesting, smart people who are working on cool stuff. Work with them on
side projects and stay in touch with people at companies that are expanding.
This isn't hard for programmers to do: just go to programming language user
groups, try things out at home, and get involved in some mailing lists. Hang
out at local coworking spaces and BarCamps.

It will probably take a few months of this before you get a good job offer. It
will feel much scarier than school because there is not a well-defined end
goal. But if you have an active geek social circle you will hear about job
opportunities well before they get to the point of screening resumes for
education credentials.

------
endtime
Going back to school is kind of a reset button, and generally something you
can only do once or twice. It sounds like your situation might make it worth
it, but only if you actually want a reset. If you just want to weather the
economic storm, 1.5-2 years might not be long enough. But if you want to
change your direction a bit, either out of programming (sounds unlikely) or to
get a more theoretical background (which you may have; some of your spelling
and terminology is [are?] foreign so I may be misunderstanding what you mean
by "technical school"), then go for it. Especially while you have no kids and
no real expenses.

It also sounds like you aren't going to be happy if you're at a school where
you're just an account number, as you put it, so maybe you should visit some
schools and talk to professors and students. Then you can save yourself the
time/effort/money of applying to, or even attending, a school that you won't
like. Though this might not be practical for you if you have strict geographic
constraints (e.g. you don't want to move).

Disclaimer: This is from the perspective of someone who went from high school
to a four year university (studied CS) and then went straight to a CS master's
program, which is where I am now. So I thought about some of these issues, and
talked to a lot of people about them, but I don't have actual experience to
justify some of the above. Also, I'm biased towards grad school, which is hard
work but a hell of a time.

~~~
Srenaeb
Ah, sorry. School options here are 4-year degree programs at a university.
College has a bad connotation up here in canada. The other option is a 1 year,
or 2 years programmes at a "provincial/state institute of technology"
generally thought of as career prep type programme, or where University grads
go to actually be useful on the job.

I tried the former, and did not finsih. I completed the latter, liked it.
Sorry about the confusion.

------
rsayers
I'm in a bit of an opposite situation, I've been doing web development since
high school (i'm 27 now), and am just now going to college for the first time.
For a degree in religion of all things.

That said, I would never have gone to school for anything related to
computers. I'm still not sure if I plan to continue doing development or go
into something else completely, but I'm fairly certain that I could pick up
more useful knowledge outside of school. Experience is huge, and at 3.5 years
you are about at that level where it doesn't matter if you have a degree or
not to many employers. I've worked with many coders with formal degrees, did
well in college, but simply fell flat when confronted with a professional
development environment. The best programmer I know personally has also never
stepped foot in a college class room.

So my advice would be to stay away from formal education and keep coding. Do
side projects when you can, You would be shocked how a weekend of toying with
a new programming language will change the way you think of things and help
your 9-5 programming.

~~~
Srenaeb
Thank you for the encouragement. I will spend more time on my hobby projects.

I have a lot of useful knowledge that I gained from my time in the technical
trades school, as well as on the job. But sometimes I feel like I've hit a
brick wall as well. For example the MSDN will tell me that it's more efficient
to use class A rather than class B. Why? I don't know, I can't even begin to
device tests for myself to find out if, where and when this is true. I just
have to take whatever I find on the Internet as true. Sometimes it's
frustrating. But then I still get the job done, so maybe it doesn't matter...?

Also, congrats your going back for religious studies. I did a 1 year theology
certificate program between dropping out and programming. Really taught me
lots I'll be thankful for all my life.

------
sqnz
I'm doing that right now! Got a small thecnical degree, worked for 3.5 years..

But my job sucked! So I decided to go to university!

Why? It's a transition! At university yes you get shit to do (in computer
science the classes are horrible and disconnected from realty!!)

But, there is no place like university to build a startup and make
connections! So that's the main reason I stick to university :) Plus where I
got in Québec they credit me one year + the interm because of my work
experience.

So...

You will hate going to university because the classes are boring it's not
practical, but you get a good degree.

But what can help you put up with the BS and really stand out is building a
startup, joining toastmasters, building connection with people and making
contacts, etc.

And when you know that most universities are like 60,000 people "little
cities" that are all connected to the same community, it feel good :)

So... while it may not be your answer, I love what I do! And in university
there are some companies that are actually taking students for a job! I see
"We need 25 programmers" ads in the bathrooms :P hahahaha

------
RobGR
When you thought the university was a load of crap, that no one gave a shit
about you, that textbooks were meant for professors to profit, and that
professors don't care about teaching you, you were right.

It was not "youth angst" or "academic immaturity". It was just a correct
assessment of the situation.

Most people who think you should go back to school do not actually dispute
that, they just think that putting up with bullshit like that is somehow
character building, that "paying your dues" pays off, and that it is
worthwhile to prove to large commercial corporations that you can be
manipulated by the large academic corporations.

They might be right, but if you love programming, you should program. You have
to pay the bills too, of course, so you have to figure out how you can do
both. Maybe work on a small project you can try to sell while searching for a
job, or start doing contract / consulting jobs on the side ? It depends on the
details of your situation.

------
biohacker42
I knew a brilliant hacker who also dropped out of college for the same
reasons.

It's a bit of youthful arrogance, immaturity, but also the kind of spirit
youth would not be youth without.

Anyway, a recession is probably the best time to be in school.

But there are two very important things to keep in mind:

1\. Do NOT go into life crushing debt! A small amount of debt is OK, state
schools are cool.

2\. Do NOT take school too seriously, OBVIOUSLY it's a for profit operation.
Do not let their BS stop you from getting an education while having a good
time. You'll do most of your learning on your own and from like minded
classmates, learn, have fun, get a degree.

~~~
Srenaeb
Did your hacker friend eventually go back to school? I guess it also feels
like I'm admitting defeat to the "system" if I go back. I had hoped to say
"Forget you! I can hack it on my own just fine". So, I guess a bit of that
arrogance still remains...

It feels awful. "Everyone" in my family and their social circle think it's the
norm, that you do high school and then you get a degree and get a job. That
it's just life, you just play the game that everybody's playing. That the
school obviously doesn't care, but also obviously none of the students care
either -- they're just paying customers. It feels so awful and dirty to have
to go back to that and prove everyone right.

But, that's the firey youth talking again. If I do go back, this time the
professors will be a resource to chat up outside of class hours. This time the
fellow students will be potential business partners. This time, when presented
with esoteric course material, I can think about how it relates to my code, oh
so many tiers down later. This time, I know that the academic bureaucracy
isn't there to help me, they're just there to make a buck and keep the system
going, like my pension plan and unemployment insurance.

Hurray for cynicism!

~~~
biohacker42
My hacker friend is doing the whole living out of the back of a van thing...
in a good way... by choice.

As to admitting defeat to the system, sure you could look at it what way, but
you could also argue that the defeat came when you quit! But that's mind games
and you can play those on your own, you don't need me for that.

Suffice it to say, if you proving everyone else right or wrong is a major
concern for you, that's a problem, school is not.

I think your last paragraph is an excellent plan, hell it sounds a lot like
what I did in college.

Except that my attitude to esoteric material was: C- is all I need to pass.
The professors then look at you with those puppy dog eyes: But you can do
better! I know, that's why I'm not bothering with this shit.

Cynicism is the appropriate response to less then honest systems like college
often is. Another word for cynicism is realism.

And your plan talk to professors outside of class and view fellow classmates
as future partners, isn't cynical at all, in fact it's very positive.

The view that academic bureaucracy isn't there to help you, could be described
as cynical, but then again it could also be described as factual.

------
coolnewtoy
If you go back, get a degree in an industry. Technical aptitude and skills are
great and transportable to almost any field. A "proper education" makes you
more valuable if you understand the problems to be solved in an industry like
biotech, or greentech, etc. (probably not so much financial services these
days)

~~~
Srenaeb
It's kind of hard to pick an industry based on "what I think will be awesome 4
years later." Also I have no confidence in being able to do school for a
subject I don't care about.

Hence CS is probably the only degree I'll be going back for. I would really
like to learn assembly and proper C and C++. as well as algorithms and data
structures....

------
josefresco
After reading your last paragraph, I'd stick with the professional world and
try to craft a job you love, one where you control your own destiny.

I would bet that school will still strike you as mostly bullshit from the
sounds of your past experience (tech school/self taught)

~~~
Srenaeb
...yes, I don't think the state of our higher eduction has improved in the
(counts) 7 years I've been gone. I'd have to play the system like everyone
else there is doing, and my honest opinion is that degrees are an over-
produced commodity in the developed world today.

On the plus side, many have pointed out that the true value of a degree
program isn't the courses, the books, and the shiny paper at the end, but the
contacts you make there and what you can learn from talking to the professors
one on one.

Looking at my U-grad friends, I've come to realizes university does not
educate people or give them any sort of knowledge. University is a place where
you can education yourself and obtain whatever knowledge you seek for
yourself.

------
herval
Speaking as a former enterpreneur, I don't think having a BS represents
anything at all.

Speaking as an employee, one thing I came to notice was that the BEST people I
worked with did not even attend an IT course (they had graduations on other
areas, like math or physics - one in english literature!). Of course there
were some IT bachelors in the bunch - what I'm trying to say is that, as far
as I've noticed, it didn't make anyone better than the ones without a degree
on the field.

I'd get to know new technologies, get to meet new people (both online and
offline), take part on things (like JUGs or other technology groups - even
give a try at setting up my own, maybe), get involved on open source, write.

Investing in a bit of hype also helps - like jumping on RoR one year ago, when
it was 1.0, for instance, would automatically turn you into a 'Rails Hacker',
which is a 'niche'.

Bottomline: I don't really think getting back to work or learning 'low level
stuff' would really help in anyone's career (except if you plan on becoming an
academic).

------
jderick
Yes.

We can argue all day about how credentials shouldn't matter. But they do. Put
up with a little BS for a few years and it will pay off.

------
comster
Did you say WHY you want to go back to school? It is a very personal decision
to make. Many make it to the top just fine (maybe not easy) without the paper
in their hands. I have to agree with you on the BS that schools deal out. ASU
made it clear during my time there, that they were a business in it for the
money. But regardless, just worry about what it is you're looking to get out
of the experience.

