
Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Moving Parts - tshannon
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/silent-and-simple-ion-engine-powers-a-plane-with-no-moving-parts/
======
zackmorris
Here's the best resource that I know of for building ion wind "lifters":

[http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/main.htm](http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/main.htm)

So far their best result is 0.886 kW/kg (0.539 hp/lb), comparable to a
helicopter, by using a pulsed DC power supply at 70 Hz:

[http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lftphv.htm](http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lftphv.htm)

So a helicopter with that could lift 1.13 kg/kW (1.86 lb/hp).

A plane with a 10:1 lift to drag ratio would fly with 0.0886 kW/Kg (0.0539
hp/lb). It could lift 11.3 kg/kW (18.6 lb/hp).

A 200 kg (440 lb) helicopter, including human passenger, would take 177 kW
(237 hp).

The same mass airplane would take 17.7 kW (23.7 hp).

Of course the pulsing would add a buzz which may not be desirable. It looks
like the pulsed DC uses 17.72 RMS W vs 69.58 DC W, so is about 3.927 times
more efficient than DC. Maybe a plane could have both silent and high
efficiency modes for takeoff and cruising.

I have no idea how these numbers compare to the ones in the article, but they
should be within the same magnitude. Please someone double check my math :-)

~~~
phs318u
While the lifter clearly represents a manifestation of some reall effect, they
do themselves no favours by linking to a book called "Secrets of Antigravity
Propulsion" that claims to expose the secrets covered-up by NASA with respect
to the B2's "highly secret electrogravitic field propulsion system" and
Rocketdyne's secret antigravity propulsion project.

I hate the fact that phenomena worthy of proper scientific examination are
often also massive nut-job magnets.

~~~
Natanael_L
[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/316438315_Gravitati...](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/316438315_Gravitational-
magnetic-electric_fields_interaction_vi)

Seems to be possible in theory, but appears to require pretty extreme energies

------
_Microft
Ars Technica has an article on this as well. It features a 5 minute video of
various attempts and sustained flight as well.

[https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/11/small-drone-soars-
on...](https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/11/small-drone-soars-on-an-ionic-
wind-with-no-moving-parts/)

~~~
taneq
Thanks! I wonder why TFA didn't show any photos? It always makes me skeptical
when a news story about a new design is accompanied only by renders.

------
gji
Nature letter here:
[https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0707-9](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0707-9)

Looks like they developed advancements with lightweight high-voltage
converters and performance of the thrusters.

------
mchannon
As planes use most of their energy to not crash into the ground, I could see
the most practical use of this technology for propulsion where crashing isn't
a major concern.

Airships (dirigibles/blimps), and to a lesser extent, sea and land vehicles.

~~~
isostatic
> I could see the most practical use of this technology for propulsion where
> crashing isn't a major concern.

Missiles jumped to mind. That's their whole purpose.

~~~
moftz
Except you need missiles to go much faster than ion thrusters can go. 11 mph
is enough for someone to shoot down your missile with a rifle.

~~~
jandrese
At 11 mph they could outrun it on foot.

~~~
isostatic
Prepare to engage enemy . . . bogey’s airspeed not sufficient for intercept.
Suggest we get out and walk

~~~
moftz
Anti-missile defense provided by strong gusts of wind.

------
ohiovr
Sounds like lifters. Would it produce a lot of ozone pollution?

~~~
mabbo
Ah, darn. I was wondering if this might be a new way to have better indoor air
circulation with no moving parts. But filling my home with ozone doesn't sound
like a good idea.

~~~
ohiovr
maybe you could use uv light to neutralize the ozone.

Ah on second thought

[https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/...](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/world/2018/11/16/chinese-
schoolchildren-burned-by-uv-lamp-left-classroom-again/)

~~~
kardos
non-amp link: [https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2018/11/16/chinese-
scho...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2018/11/16/chinese-
schoolchildren-burned-by-uv-lamp-left-classroom-again)

------
starpilot
You can build one at home!

[https://rimstar.org/sdprop/lifter/lifter1b/lifter1b.htm](https://rimstar.org/sdprop/lifter/lifter1b/lifter1b.htm)

~~~
nomel
It’s not as easy to get ahold of >20kV power supplies these days! Before, you
could find them on the street corners and in your neighbors trash. There was
always a CRT to sacrifice.

My lifter, probably like most, eventually caught fire.

Efficiency seems fairly poor [1], and from my experience, ozone is absolutely
a problem.

1\.
[https://aip.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/1.4890353](https://aip.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/1.4890353)

~~~
Groxx
Microwave transformer maybe? Or does that not supply enough?

~~~
FreeFull
Ideally, for safety reasons, you'd use something like a neon transformer. They
supply a very high voltage, but at the same time the output is current-
limited, which decreases the chance you'll electrocute yourself.

~~~
LinuxBender
I've zapped myself on one of those. It contracted my muscles enough to send me
across the room and almost knocked me out. I'm happy it wasn't across the
chest. And yes, I was doing something incredibly dumb. My teen-age years had
some regrettable moments.

------
nraynaud
I don’t think you can move a lot of air silently, the turbulent layer between
the flow and the still air produces noise. This is only silent because of
size. Maybe less noisy than a fan or prop, but not silent.

~~~
onemoresoop
corrent, but it would still be "silent-er"

------
perlgeek
> When that happens, the nitrogen atoms turn into positively charged ions.

Does that mean it produces nitrogen oxide as exhaust? If yes, how long does
that live?

If such planes were to be scaled up, that could be a potential hazard to be
aware of.

------
rkagerer
I gather this thing ionizes air to create a positively charged "working fluid"
which accelerates away from the anode in a cone shaped pattern. The working
fluid doesn't generate [much(?)] thrust directly, as it collides with the
craft again at the cathode. But along the way some of the ions near the edge
of the cone bump into and accelerate neutral air molecules, generating the
[bulk of the(?)] thrust that propels the craft.

With a modified design, is it possible to accelerate the ionized air so fast
that all of it vents out the exhaust (e.g. using magnets)? Would that result
in higher efficiency / higher thrust? Are there already atmosphere-breathing
engines that do this and what are they called?

~~~
ArtifTh
>Are there already atmosphere-breathing engines that do this and what are they
called?

Generally this kind of engine is called Magnetohydrodynamic drive. I'm not
sure about atmospheric engines, but according to wiki[1] there are prototypes
that uses water as working fluid.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetohydrodynamic_drive](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetohydrodynamic_drive)

------
ceriodamus
This man probably got contacted by X amount of countries militaries already.

The idea of a totally silent tiny drone that can get real close is scary to
think of.

------
cmroanirgo
> “It was very exciting,” Barrett says. “Then it crashed into the wall, which
> wasn’t ideal.”

Reading this reminded me of the two Wright brothers, who had similar issues,
and similar people around them, not believing it would work.

Kudos. It sounds pretty amazing to me.

------
pugworthy
Others have pointed this out I think, but this kind of craft concept has been
around for a while. Here is a 1964 Popular Mechanics article about the idea...

[http://www.rexresearch.com/desev/desev.htm](http://www.rexresearch.com/desev/desev.htm)

Different approach to flying but it’s interesting how some of the described
reactions are similar about the silence and no moving parts.

I remember reading this article when I was a kid in a stack of PMs in the
early 70s.

------
mgpetkov
But what would happen if the electrodes become wet like flying in rain, fog
and so on?

~~~
ceejayoz
Sounds like it'd be perfect for exploring Mars.

~~~
mkl
Mars's atmosphere is probably much too thin - not many atoms to ionise and not
much lift to be had. Might work at some altitudes on Venus or a gas giant,
though.

~~~
rishav_sharan
Titan. 3 times the atmospheric density of earth. Would be awesome to fly
something like this there though i suppose a balloon would probably be much
more practical.

------
peetle
Video or it didn't happen.

~~~
anakanemison
Here is the video, fwiw.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boB6qu5dcCw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boB6qu5dcCw)

~~~
jstanley
It is hard to convince oneself that this is substantially different from a
glider.

~~~
walrus01
Neither is a human powered ultra light weight, huge aircraft like the gossamer
albatross. If you have a very weak engine it needs to be made out of
incredibly light materials, and even so light it must be flown indoors with
zero wind.

------
boxcardavin
Awesome result, hopefully we'll see a video of it in action and more
information of thrust to power ratio. Very cool.

~~~
skinofstars
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boB6qu5dcCw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boB6qu5dcCw)

------
kwhitefoot
> Powers a Plane with No Moving Parts

Yet all the pictures are renderings, artist's impressions. So, do they have a
working model or not? There are no links to any supporting documents;
Scientific American used to be better than this, very disappointing.

~~~
lawlessone
There is video of it flying here, no idea why OP article did not include that.

[https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/11/small-drone-soars-
on...](https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/11/small-drone-soars-on-an-ionic-
wind-with-no-moving-parts/)

------
chris_va
2012 paper on this subject that is a little more technical on the thrust
aspect:
[https://arxiv.org/pdf/1202.4604.pdf](https://arxiv.org/pdf/1202.4604.pdf)

------
olgs
I wonder if it is possible to use this technology to build a noiseless fan.

------
rudolph9
Could this technology be used to create a wind turbine with no moving parts? I
have very little insight into how this would work but it intuitively seems
applicable and would probably be way more useful.

~~~
rudolph9
A quick search says yes!
[https://repository.tudelft.nl/islandora/object/uuid:81221f03...](https://repository.tudelft.nl/islandora/object/uuid:81221f03-9d46-4c7c-a5b0-b859a26f7d04?collection=research)

This from 2011 Does anyone know if something like this exists at large scales
today?

------
kgilpin
Flapping wings are also silent. And articulated wings can perform complex
maneuvering including hover and vertical takeoff and landing.

So is there any other advantage to ion propulsion besides quiet operation?

~~~
ceejayoz
"No moving parts" sounds like a _really_ big deal for long-mission drones.

~~~
superkuh
Not at 6.25 N kW^−1 it's not.

------
alantrrs
This is a very exciting line of research. Assuming this gets to be a real
plane or drone. How do you deal with the Ozone it produces?

~~~
danellis
Offset it by putting CFCs back in fridges.

------
jchrisa
Powered by ground based microwaves, it could be simplified into a flying
antennae.

~~~
pugworthy
Oddly, this idea has been around since 1964...

[http://www.rexresearch.com/desev/desev.htm](http://www.rexresearch.com/desev/desev.htm)

------
heharkon
SOME moving parts would be nice, like the rudder, ailerons and elevators.
Otoh, maybe part of those functionalities could be achieved with
differentiating the ion flux.

~~~
ajuc
You can also vector the flux with electromagnets.

------
mrfusion
Has there been any research on running something like this in water? For boat
or sub propulsion?

Since ions already exist in water maybe you can skip the ionizing step.

~~~
danielmg
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetohydrodynamic_drive](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetohydrodynamic_drive)

------
apo
Video here:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boB6qu5dcCw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boB6qu5dcCw)

------
TremendousJudge
Compared to other unmanned electrical flying craft, would this type be more
durable in non-stop flight conditions?

~~~
tyingq
This would have to be pretty light given the low thrust, so durable isn't the
first thing I think of. Or does durable have some special meaning with
aircraft?

~~~
TremendousJudge
I just meant "being able to fly around without any maintenance being performed
on it"

~~~
Junk_Collector
In theory. It could be made with no moving parts and steered via thrust
vectoring by varying the location of the negative voltage. Lightweight high
voltage equipment like that is very expensive to make at those reliability
levels currently, but the idea of an operational window of a year+ doesn't
seem like a pipe dream. We'll probably see applications in military
intelligence (spying) and drug smuggling before other more civilian uses.

------
givinguflac
This would be a great addition to hot air balloons for mild navigation.

------
ryanmarsh
How much thrust was generated and how much does the craft weigh?

------
HillaryBriss
possibly useful for flying contraband over a prison or border wall

------
mrfusion
How about using these as solid state wind turbines to generate electricity.

~~~
istjohn
How exactly do you propose to reverse this mechanism?

------
mamon
I guess in this case ions ARE the moving parts :)

------
dirtbikesRcool
So no video?

------
prossercj
This is really cool.

> “In Star Trek you have shuttlecraft gliding silently past,” he says. “I
> thought, ‘We should have aircraft like that.’”

It's a good sign when inspiration comes from Star Trek.

Edit: Also, reminds me of this:
[https://xkcd.com/2072/](https://xkcd.com/2072/)

~~~
comboy
Being separated by vacuum sure helps to keep these shuttlecraft silent though.

~~~
Kye
I'm glad every scifi movie and TV show's sound designers decide to ignore
reality and make it interesting. It wouldn't be the same without the whoosh
and rumble.

~~~
BerislavLopac
I have a solid, realistic explanation why you can hear other spacecraft and
explosions in movies like Star Wars! ^_^

~~~
godelski
Because there's no such thing as a perfect vacuum? Because when there's an
explosion there's also an expanding medium that sounds can travel through?

~~~
gpm
I suggest AR - why would ship designers neglect an entire input channel to the
humans in control?

~~~
trentlott
I mean, it would be a hell of a benefit if you can hear a ship explode behind
you while you look at the the one in front of you or at a screen

If you _don 't_ have that, you're a little more limited to relying on visual
information for everything

------
bluejekyll
“It was very exciting,” Barrett says. “Then it crashed into the wall, which
wasn’t ideal.”

~~~
sp332
So if this fell on someone, would it electrocute them?

~~~
hermitdev
Voltage doesn't kill, current does. One can easily take 10s of thousands of
volt across the the heart if the amperage is low, but a car battery putting
out 12 volts and several amps can. Personally, I've taken leads from a 240V,
3KW solar panel array from hand to hand and not felt a thing. Have so same 2
leads touch the same hand, you're going to feel it. For me, felt like a snake
bite, minus the venom. Left a few small red mark on my hand that cleared up in
a few days.

Mind this is all in reference to DC current. AC is another beast.

~~~
hermitdev
Edit: it takes around, or less, than 1.5 mA across the heart to kill

------
ta20222
When I submit a link, it doesn't show up. Does HN penalize Tor?

~~~
dang
Sometimes. Your submission got caught by a software filter. I've restored it,
but in the future you should email us at hn@ycombinator.com if issues arise.
There are too many comments for us to see most of them.

------
choot
A flute also doesn't have any moving parts.

------
superkuh
This is absurd and scientific american sure has taken a fall from grace in
order to believe it. Electrostatic "lifters" have been around for half a
century. They are toys. They do not scale up. They cannot even lift themselves
as their power supply or energy storage has to be on the ground with tiny
wires going up to the lifter. There is absolutely no chance this can be called
a 'plane'. It always has to be tethered with wire to deliver the power.

They were really popular with the UFO/Free energy crackpot crowds back in the
late 90s and early 2000s.

~~~
upofadown
Well this particular plane runs off a battery...

~~~
superkuh
Does it? As far as I can tell it doesn't exist outside of the person's mind.
Having played around with lifters myself using balsa, al foil, and a rectified
neon sign transformer I just don't think the physics can work out. And there's
no physical plane photos or videos to support otherwise. Until then I'm
sticking with this being absurd.

That said, ionization does have it's place in aircraft in terms of controlling
attachment or detachment of turbulent airflow over wings. It can significantly
improve fuel consumption by reducing drag.

But it is not a viable propulsion source. At least not on Earth for things
larger than a meter or so.

~~~
hnphillipj
[https://youtu.be/boB6qu5dcCw?t=128](https://youtu.be/boB6qu5dcCw?t=128)

> _But it is not a viable propulsion source. At least not on Earth for things
> larger than a meter or so._

It's 5m wide

~~~
superkuh
Thanks for providing that. It does prove my point though. That plane is not
flying at all. It is falling with style. The initial forward momentum is from
the launch rail, not from the electrostatic propulsion.

~~~
hnphillipj
[https://sci-hub.tw/https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-01...](https://sci-
hub.tw/https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0707-9)

see the top of page 534, figure b. You are correct that the initial forward
momentum is from the launch rail, but the graph clearly shows that the ion
engine provides thrust.

Is the title of the HN submission misleading? Yes.

Did the plane achieve flight with the ion engine alone? No.

Was the plane able to maintain and gain altitude because of the ion engine?
Yes.

A step forward in the right direction but not as much of a breakthrough as the
submission title would have you think.

> _As far as I can tell it doesn 't exist outside of the person's mind._

Based brah. I'm being serious when I say that I think HN needs more of this
type of comment. They seem to love rigidity in comments, but not any bluntness
or banter thrown in there.

~~~
Junk_Collector
Thanks for finding the paper.

Sucking almost 3A out of the battery, it's not going to fly very long, but
that's also a fairly inefficient power converter design. There is lots of room
for improvement.

