
Why Are American Kids So Spoiled? - jseliger
http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/books/2012/07/02/120702crbo_books_kolbert?currentPage=all
======
JamesLeonis
I admit to being a former spoiled teenager. I didn't even do the basic things
required to take care of myself (even being nagged to take a shower),
nevermind the chores around the house. Now, over a decade later, I now do the
things that others would consider part of being a responsible adult.

What changed? A trial-by-fire in autonomy in college that I failed.

Basically the story is that I wasn't responsible enough at the time, and it
came back to bite me very hard. I returned home with my tail firmly between my
legs.

But for the first time I had a taste of true freedom. No nagging, no
schedules, no authorities telling me what to do. If I didn't want to go to
class, nobody was going to make me. If I didn't want to do laundry, then I had
a big pile of stinking clothes. If I didn't want to cook, then I spent money
on eating out. I painfully learned what it took to take care of myself as an
adult. Hell, I'm still learning.

Freedom is weird like that. On the one hand, it's the greatest feeling ever.
The whole world feels like your oyster. On the other hand, it has a MASSIVE
cost in both time and money. Rent, showering, work, food, car, gas, insurance,
phone, computer, internet, etc. If you want that kind of freedom, you damn
well better earn it.

Autonomy is a kind of freedom that I believe we don't give to children here in
America. We don't trust them with that kind of freedom, so we swoop in and
guide their every move and every minute. This is an enabling behavior because
it doesn't allow for children to take responsibility, and yet we want them to
magically have it. In fact, I would argue that kids don't even think about the
basics because the parents magically take care of it for them, or nag them
until it is done.

If we want our children to be autonomous and responsible, we need to give them
the space to fail and face the intrinsic consequences of that failure without
swooping in to help.

~~~
fossuser
I can relate to some degree.

Parents often have good intentions, but by attempting to control everything it
creates a dysfunctional environment.

------
SoftwareMaven
As a parent, I look at the samples provided and think, "WTF?" At 13, your kid
"might finally be able to accept the responsibility of taking the trash out"?

I love my kids, but I know a critical part of raising them is pissing them off
on a fairly regular basis (also known as saying "No" :). My 13 year old
daughter _really_ likes that.

More importantly, it is better to raise them to understand their real place in
the world (which is not "everybody gets a medal for participating"; I really
want to punch whoever decided _that_ was a good idea). Life is hard, people
will piss on you. If you've been coddled your whole life, that is going to be
a painful experience when it happens.

On the other hand, if your parents have 1) given you a strong foundation of
love and self-respect and 2) positioned you to know you have to work your way
up, you'll usually do OK.

(Note: I'm not saying I'm perfect. There are things I'd do differently and my
fourth is getting a different parenting experience than my first, but,
overall, with various crap they've all had to deal with, they are continuing
to do well. So far, it's success.)

------
gyardley
I'd love to hear some anecdotes from non-Americans currently raising kids,
especially if they've also got some hands-on experience with American culture.
Are American kids truly spoiled, or is the issue universal? If American kids
are spoiled, what are you doing differently?

~~~
kika
I'm Russian, and I brought my 9 (now 11) year old daughter to the US. This
process was (and somewhat still is) pretty painful for everybody, especially
my wife. Russian women are often called 'sitting hens' back home because of
their extreme hyper/over/megacare about all things, especially children. And
the whole system is built around this - teachers don't talk to kids, they talk
to parents (usually mothers), kids opinions are quickly dismissed just because
they're kids "I don't care what you think, tell me what your mother says".
Kids adopt to this (they're kids) and sit idle waiting for next command from
the upper management. But at the end it turned out to be much easier for the
daughter than to my wife. She felt like she suddenly lost control of her child
- "what if she gets under the bus?!?!11 what if the will fall from the tree?!!
what if she will drawn in the pool?!11", etc. My daughter adopted quickly
(again, she's the kid) but in a funny fashion - she's very independent in the
school and in the company of her classmates, but still very dependent at home
(because it's much easier to manipulate your mother to iron your shirt than to
do it yourself, you know). I can't say that American kids are specifically
spoiled. There's fierce competition, who's cool and who's not. In their school
it is cool to be cool AND also get into the advanced math class. Pretty tough
objective, I'd say :-) Back home (we went to a very good school too) the
relations between kids were much more relaxed, but there was much more
physical abuse. All cultures have their benefits and drawbacks, but overall I
like it here better. In particular because it's cool to be in the advanced
math class :-) And because she was very disappointed to learn that there would
be no advanced computer class in 6th grade. And because she wants to go to the
summer camp in Stanford to learn special effects in video, etc. But I live in
a pretty upscale neighbourhood, one of the best school districts in
California, blah-blah. That's definitely offsets perspective.

~~~
ansgri
«very independent in the school and in the company of her classmates, but
still very dependent at home» seems to be very typical of young people here in
Russia, good point.

~~~
kika
Alas, that's purely our fault, parents.

------
mixmastamyk
I encounter this attitude a lot with the local moms, including my wife.

My anecdote... our baby was a year old or so and waking up once or twice a
night crying. Wet? no, hungry? We fed her a lot before going to bed, so
unlikely. I recommended a few times that we let her cry herself back to sleep,
and get some rest ourselves.

Barring an emergency, my philosophy is that a child will be better served in
the long run by happy, well-slept parents for 16 hours a day than harried,
miserable ones 24 hours a day. Pretty simple really. The wife disagreed. It
wasn't until another month or two later when our old-school pediatrician
recommend the same thing in different wording--"you're part of her routine,"
that she agreed to try.

By the second (maybe third) night the night-time crying had stopped
/permanently/ and we went on to live happily ever after. Later, another mom we
know was having the same problem, and my wife gave her the advice. "I don't
believe he (the pediatrician) said that!" she replied incredulously...

Do you know she laid down with her son every night for an hour until he went
to bed, and then got up twice a night for the last two years? (And we're the
crazy ones).

There's a good bit by George Carlin called, "Child worship" that is good
commentary on this mindset. The sooner it goes out of fashion, the better.

------
PaulHoule
Just try showing your child some discipline in public and somebody will drop a
dime on you and you get a visit from child protective services in the next few
days...

~~~
kaonashi
I think you're conflating discipline with violence.

~~~
gnaritas
Sadly, that seems to be common. Is amazing how many people still believe that
a kid who isn't spanked is undisciplined.

~~~
ekianjo
Spanking a kid has never killed anyone, as far as I know. I was spanked as a
kid and when I was, I did deserve it and it was a good way to show that there
are limits not to cross. I don't really understand the popular mindset now
that education should be done entirely without touching your kid. There's a
clear line between spanking and domestic violence. Let's not call a squirrel a
rat.

~~~
gnaritas
As someone else here said, you need to watch some super nanny, violence is not
the most effective way to discipline children. You can do better without
hitting them. Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.

~~~
larrys
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."

Spanking is not "violence". Spanking has been done since the beginning of
time. I fail to see how you can support your argument by the way by quoting
Super Nanny (which I have watched many times and find entertaining..) Super
Nanny is a TV with cherry picked families that are pre-screened to insure they
are on the dart board (and parents are off the dart board) with respect to the
techniques she uses. There is definitely a place in some families for what
Super Nanny does. But that is not to say that there isn't a place for spanking
of children.

~~~
gnaritas
> Spanking is not "violence".

Yes it is.

> Spanking has been done since the beginning of time.

Irrelevant. Slavery has existed since the beginning of time, that doesn't
justify it. Racism has existed since the beginning of time, that doesn't
justify it. Appeals to tradition are not a sound argument.

~~~
ekianjo
What do you define as violence exactly? Pinching is violence too? Do you let
your boys be #violent# during the recess? Because most kids are way more
violent with other kids than just spanking. Do you do anything about that or
just turn a blind eye to it?

Spanking has been around forever and has never had life threatening or
civilization threatening implications. Why dont you compare spanking with
nuclear weapons while you are at it?

~~~
larrys
"Spanking has been around forever and has never had life threatening or
civilization threatening implications."

Thanks for making the point better than I did. The movement against spanking
as being bad in such an absolute way is fairly recent. And, afaik, science has
not backed this up.

I'm going to open a new thread with this old post on a spanking research by
Carl "the numbers guy" Bialik in the WSJ a few years ago:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4161784>

------
amalag
A very nice article. Amongst our Indian friends it is common that NOONE hires
a babysitter (that word does not exist in their dictionary), so when you
invite someone, you are inviting their children and we see a lot of obnoxious
children. It goes without saying that the parenting is to blame, and I think
this article is right on, over emphasis on grades, softness of parents on
basic things are to blame. Parents will say no, they don't mean it, and then
kids learn from that. They are very clever and really take the meaning of an
interaction, not just the words. Parents are a bit foolish that way to just go
by the words.

------
kamaal
In general that happen whens there is too much luxury. The person doesn't know
the value of things, what others get after a lot of work and difficulty.

If you know how difficult it is to buy even things like food, clothing and
shelter. How hard you have to work to get them, you will have a lot humility
in using them. There are a lot of people in the world who would do anything
just for 3 proper meals a day, a livable home, clothes to wear and some basic
health care.

In my country India(People still live in subhuman conditions) and some would
do anything to even have one proper meal a day. They don't have the luxury to
be spoilt.

US to me looks like a land of extreme consumerism. People seem to buy all
sorts of stuff, even if they have absolutely no need for it. Eating at fast
food restaurants, going on vacations, changing cars every now and then, loans,
debt and other spending even if you never need it at all. Also US attitude
toward the rest of world is frightening to say at the least. I mean I get the
patriotism, but most US politicians talk like as though any other place
outside is shit. The infrastructure looks like tall buildings, clean roads and
all that all designed richest people on earth.

You also have this history, bombing every other nation that says 'no' to you.
Invading so many countries and mercilessly pounding them with impunity.
Granting aids to other nations like you offer alms. Or having economic
sanctions.

All this gives a feeling that US is some form of invincible entity whose
dominance on the world scene will last till eternity. And you can do whatever
you like and you have free pass.

I think all this counts and gives you a sense of extreme confidence and
arrogance that you will get what you demand. And such a run will never end.

------
spking
It was only a century ago when the norm for American children was to receive
modest gifts like paper dolls, penny candy and homemade dresses for Christmas.
Nowadays, most middle class parents feel guilty if they don't cram a mountain
of expensive plastic crap under the tree.

~~~
krschultz
We really have forgotten that a pile of computer paper and a box of crayons
can keep kids entertained for hours.

(Are we still allowed to give kids computer paper, or do they now sell special
paper with rubber edges to prevent paper cuts?)

~~~
ekianjo
Yeah, I have heard the same thing many times: kids are often more entertained
with the cardbox than the content itself :) Most of the times, gifts get
abandoned after playing a few hours with them.

------
Alex3917
If any American parent tried raising their kids like the tribe in this article
they'd be immediately sent to prison, probably for several decades if not
life. And if any of the kids tried acting like the kids in that tribe, they'd
also get sent to prison just as fast.

~~~
warfangle
Not quite as young as the kids in the article- but by age 6 I was handling a
pocket knife, building camp fires (with supervision), and cooking over said
camp fires (hot dogs on a stick, etc).

~~~
Alex3917
Yeah, but you can't take a machete to school and build a campfire on the
playground, nor can you go on vacation for a few days and leave your kids to
wander around downtown LA with only a machete and some matches.

~~~
mixmastamyk
Why would you want to do things in the city that only make sense in the
jungle? While partially correct, I think you are overstating the case.

------
TheRevoltingX
Spare the rod, spoil the child I'm from El Salvador and beatings are a regular
thing for us. It's normal for us to start working at 12.

Now that's the extreme, but this whole don't hit your kids movement is an
epidemic.

~~~
rrggrr
Hitting your kids is parenting for amateurs or dummies. Anytime I catch myself
with the urge to hit I remind myself I'm a lot smarter than those little shits
(whom I love immensely) and its just a matter of calmly reminding them of
their incentives, both negative and positive. The same holds true for yelling.
I find that having them look in my eyes and speaking very quietly and calmly
accomplishes a lot more. YMMV.

~~~
ekianjo
Kids better take their hits from their own family first. They get used to the
violence in society later this way, and get stronger through the process. I'd
like to see you vindicate your view that adults raised without "physical"
education end up being better adults. The trends in society certainly don't
seem to indicate your are right.

As long as it's not abusive, disproportionate, and done in the proper
circumstances and for the right reasons, there's nothing wrong with that.

Please note I'm not advocating beating up your child for no reason whatsoever.
It should be the last resort to educate. But just like the experience of fire
is necessary to fear it, the experience of authority through a variety of
means has value.

------
desireco42
I get that americans enjoy this self bashing, but aside from being guilty of
perpetual war, this is more of a global phenomenon.

I remember hearing how Slavic kids are being kids till late 30-ies, and pretty
much it goes the same way as stories in this article. Usually parents would
tell their spoiled kids in like 20-ties or so, that american parents around 16
or 18 just show their kids a door. This sounded harsh and cruel to me, as our
parents would never kick us out.

Criticism in this article is spot-on, however you can't blame only americans
for it, it is a symptom of different requirements life has from people in
northern hemisphere or what is called western civilization.

I think it is OK to care and be affectionate with your kids, we just need find
better ways of showing it.

What do you think?

~~~
ajross
Yeah, I suspect "What's the matter with kids today?" is a matter of
fundamental psychology.

~~~
desireco42
reading through other comments and opinions, I get a sense that it might be
consequence of having fewer kids

------
rangibaby
"Americans are like a rich father who wishes he knew how to give his son the
hardships that made him rich." - Frost

------
numeromancer
_That the abused don't feel abused doesn't mean they aren't being abused. It
just means they're rationalizing or denying..._

There should be a name for this particular kind of ad hominim fallacy.
"Fallacy of the Retreat into the Subconcious", maybe.

Eg "The fact is"---always start with "the fact is..." so that your assertions
cannot be doubted---"that they are really very severely traumatized by that
violent swat on the rump they got when they were three and trying to punch
their mommy, even if they say they're not. They just don't realize it because
it's subconscious trauma."

------
juddlyon
As I read this I thought about social welfare: well-meaning and often counter-
productive.

Another corollary would be dog training.

~~~
ubasu
Snarky response of the day: Seems like quite the trend to compare the poor and
unemployed to children and animals. ;-)

------
josephcooney
How many people on HN have kids?

------
readymade
Are they?

------
eragnew
Um, because their parents spoil them?

------
moron
Board an airplane in America, and all will be revealed. We are ridiculously
entitled people, and by extension our children are precious special little
gemstones who shouldn't have to be impinged upon by such trivial things as the
entire rest of the world. I haven't spent enough time in other countries to
know whether we are unique in this regard, but I know it is true for us, and
it's honestly pretty disgusting to me.

~~~
adventureful
If by entitled you mean enslaved, sure.

Americans are being boiled alive in the giant nanny state, and are treating
their own children like the government treats them, no coincidence. Adults now
rarely possess the virtues that are being questioned about the children, and
that's where it stems from. Self reliance? Independence? Who needs it, the
state or mommy & daddy will take care of whatever is wrong. It's the gimme
gimme gimme generation, they want their cake and they want to eat it too.

Boomers were the worst generation of parents (so far) in American history. And
so it passes down.

Fortunately, it's all burning to the ground and will be forced to change.
Nature doesn't allow such absurdities to exist for long.

~~~
Kluny
Where's this magical place where the government takes care of you? I've never
been there. More like, if you get injured and can't come up with enough money,
go die. If you can't afford food to eat, go die. If you can't find a job, it's
cause you're lazy, go die. If you can't afford a car to get to work, we will
not provide a bus, go die. What on earth are your generalizations based on?

------
tsotha
Why is the _New Yorker_ such a terrible magazine?

~~~
tsotha
Sigh. My point was they're begging the question in a headline like that,
namely " _Are_ American kids spoiled?"

