
Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year) - thenduks
http://ryanfunduk.com/culture-of-exclusion/
======
pbiggar
The OP seems to have a real chip on his shoulder about drinking. About half of
what the OP said was him putting words in people's mouths (see: "Y U NO DRINK"
for an example). This is coming from someone who is also a non-drinker, and
who is from a culture in which drinking is almost the only social activity
(I'm from Ireland).

That actually puts him in the same company as the brogrammers, who think that
drinking is somehow makes their group special. The OP looks at drunken antics
and thinks "those idiots" (emphasis on "those"), while they think "we're so
cool" (emphasis on "we").

Compare to how I perceive most drinkers: people who want to have a
conversation, and use alcohol to provide both the venue and a small social
lubricant. Having been to a few github meetups in SF, they're largely sober
affairs - I haven't observed much alcoholism or drunkenness. Conferences are a
bit worse, but that's because people start drinking earlier.

It's not hard to enjoy these conferences, even as a non-drinker. Geeks
chatting to geeks about geekery. Yes it happens in the pub; yes most people
are drinking; yes some people have an unhealthy attitude to drinking - but
that's life. I would suggest the OP tries again: roll your eyes at those
bragging about drinking, ignore the guys slurring their words, and have good
geeky conversation with the other 90% (a number which obviously diminishes the
longer the event goes on).

~~~
mwm
When I go to tech meetups in Dublin, the chatting bit tends to happen in a pub
afterwards.

Just curious, as a non-drinker do you enjoy attending events like
PubStandards? I generally can't maintain a good geeky conversation in those
environments from the noise, and leave with a sore throat from raising my
voice.

~~~
pbiggar
Yeah, I do. I've been to PubStandards a few times, and went to FunConf, which
was basically drinking on a bus to Kilkenny, lunch, then drinking on the way
back. The sore throat is annoying, but its the same as going to any party,
club, or loud pub.

------
ctide
Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but unfortunately for you, lots of people
drink. It's not just a programmer thing. It's one of the most prominent ways
_people_ socialize. Not programmers, people.

I'm sorry that you feel uncomfortable going to conferences because of the
drinking, but unfortunately, it's something you should probably learn to
accept. You can move cities, change careers, do whatever you want, but
unfortunately, you're going to find that people socialize via drinking just
about everywhere.

~~~
rcfox
> It's one of the most prominent ways people socialize. Not programmers,
> people.

So if you don't drink you're not a person? Alcohol is generally prohibited in
Islam. Are you going to tell me that there are entire nations inhabited by
human non-people?

~~~
burke
No, then if you don't drink, you simply don't participate in one of the most
prominent ways people socialize. There was no implication of sub-humanity
there. Strawmen are bad.

Even including Islamic countries in the set, drinking is _still_ one of the
most prominent ways people in general socialize on average.

~~~
pbiggar
> No, then if you don't drink, you simply don't participate in one of the most
> prominent ways people socialize.

If that were true that would be bad - drinking at conferences would then truly
alienate non-drinkers. But actually, non-drinkers can participate just fine in
one of the most prominent ways people socialize.

------
pessimizer
I feel the same way at conferences, and I actually do drink, though I never
binge drink.

 _But, that's not why I came to the conference._ I can drink at home.

I think you're fighting a losing battle, though, because the demographic that
is generally involved in programming is essentially the same (with a slight
tendency to nerdy and aspie) as the demographic of bros, and going to a
conference is like a paid vacation for people who like programming (and aren't
too intensely on call) - hence party time. Think state college spring break.

I think social awkwardness has an effect, too. I'd venture to say that the
computer obsessed tend to more socially awkward, and alcohol offers a crutch
when attempting to consciously network.

------
base698
I think the tech bloggers need to harden the fuck up. The whining is too much
to bear.

A note from Hitchens:

“Hitch: making rules about drinking can be the sign of an alcoholic,' as
Martin Amis once teasingly said to me. (Adorno would have savored that, as
well.) Of course, watching the clock for the start-time is probably a bad
sign, but here are some simple pieces of advice for the young. Don't drink on
an empty stomach: the main point of the refreshment is the enhancement of
food. Don't drink if you have the blues: it's a junk cure. Drink when you are
in a good mood. Cheap booze is a false economy. It's not true that you
shouldn't drink alone: these can be the happiest glasses you ever drain.
Hangovers are another bad sign, and you should not expect to be believed if
you take refuge in saying you can't properly remember last night. (If you
really don't remember, that's an even worse sign.) Avoid all narcotics: these
make you more boring rather than less and are not designed—as are the grape
and the grain—to enliven company. Be careful about up-grading too far to
single malt Scotch: when you are voyaging in rough countries it won't be
easily available. Never even think about driving a car if you have taken a
drop. It's much worse to see a woman drunk than a man: I don't know quite why
this is true but it just is. Don't ever be responsible for it.”

------
lsmith77
Its sad when someone introduces you to a new community, telling you how much
they love to drink. Then when you reply that you don't drink, said person
tells you .. you know actually I don't drink either.

First up, very few of these parties are advertised as a place to taste
alcohol. They are advertised as get wasted as much as possible cause its cool.
And its pretty much every conference I go to.

But at any rate, I think the "original" purpose was the same as why people
drink when they are back at home: To reduce anxiety and to make it easier for
people to get to know each other. I think that is a worthy goal since to me
the main purpose of conferences are to network, the talks come second.

But I know the same deal from sports tournaments where its also play hard on
saturday, get drunk on saturday evening, play hard on sunday. I just sick
around as long as there is someone not drunk to talk to, or the DJ doesn't
suck so that I can dance. So it goes.

I also recently wrote on my Facebook page, that this is yet another form of
excluding people. Especially if the only non alcoholic drink is water and
pineapple juice. But yeah the difference is that nobody has seriously (well
jokingly they have) implied that I am a worse programmer because I don't
drink, where as it appears to happen still way too often that women are
assumed to be booth babes or n00bs.

But getting smashed also has the tendency that people do stupid things and
when a bunch of guys feel like they totally own a place in numbers while being
totally drunk they might also start thinking they can "own" that female geek
hacker. So yeah maybe there is where we get back to the sexism debate.

------
chc
What's next, "I feel excluded because I'm a naturist"? The author seems to be
uncomfortable with drinking and seems to be projecting his discomfort on the
people at these conferences. I go to social functions all the time where other
people are drinking and I'm not — sometimes it's awkward, sometimes it's great
fun anyway (honestly, that's true of dry events too). If that's not his bag,
cool, but it's hard to find an actionable suggestion in this post beyond "I
think everyone should be like me and not drink." This is not really comparable
to creating a hostile environment where women feel objectified or looked down
upon.

~~~
thenduks
My actionable suggestions are to distance the event itself from the open bar
that occurs afterwards. I definitely don't think people shouldn't drink in
general.

I also don't think I was comparing it to creating a hostile environment where
women feel objectified - I was saying it _contributes to_ a hostile
environment for lots of people.

~~~
ahoyhere
Ah, so, because you feel excluded, you believe that conferences should be
remade in a way that makes you feel included.

And who will that cause to feel excluded?

Not to mention, other than your colorful editorializations of what _you think_
people mean ("Y U NO DRINK?" Y U NO BACK UP YOUR FAUX INTERNAL MONOLOGUES?), I
don't see where's this hostile environment exactly? Because I haven't seen or
heard of anything hostile at conf after-parties and I've spoken at 20 tech
conferences and attended more. Confs from all over the "ego gamut" - from old
school PHP confs, PERL confs, and OSCON to LessConf and JSConf. And, let it be
known, I'm a woman. Who no longer drinks at conference after parties.

So you figure if anyone's gonna have a ring-side seat to obnoxiousness, it'd
be me.

~~~
lsmith77
I think its legitimate to note why someone doesn't want to go to conferences
anymore. Now if organizers will act on that is their own decision.

But if nobody ever speaks up, then it implies that everyone is happy with
things are going.

~~~
ahoyhere
I absolutely agree with you! But "note why someone doesn't want to go to
conferences any more" is not what this essay did. He systematically painted
everyone involved as a bastard, simply because they like doing something he
doesn't. He didn't even give any examples of people pressuring him to drink or
treating him weirdly for not drinking… probably because there weren't any.

There's a _huge_ gulf between "This turns me off, here's why" and quoting your
wife, who is not involved in the situation, calling programmers terrible, _as
bad as bankers_ , based on your completely editorialized and unfounded
comments about programmers who said something positive about drinking.

------
mjackson
Excellent points all around Ryan. Thanks for bringing this up. The binge
drinking that is almost mandatory at most conferences I attend these days is
exclusive and annoying.

I don't, however, think that you need to stop attending conferences because of
it. Rest assured there will always be someone else there like you that will
have interesting things to talk about _and_ will be sober.

Now that you have let others know that you definitely won't be drinking, you
may actually be inviting others who feel the same way to seek you out at
conferences because it's more fun to hang with like-minded people.

------
spyderman4g63
Alcohol is not the main problem. The lack of professionalism that the
attendees have is. You can have a drink or two and still have meaningful
conversations, but getting sloshed is just stupid. If you want to get trashed,
why waste the money on a conference ticket?

~~~
mileszs
I have been thinking the same thing while reading the article and comments. I
haven't been to any of the larger conferences, so I thought I'd keep my mouth
shut in case I'm simply missing something. There are a couple monthly tech
meetings in Indy that either are at a bar, or go to a bar afterward. I don't
recall having seen a single intoxicated person at one of the local events, let
alone a majority of the attendees.

~~~
bnferguson
Agreed! Hell, at meetups and conferences here in Indy it seems to be tough to
even put a dent in a keg (since I bring the Dorkbot one home with me I get a
pretty good measure each month). Most barely have a beer.

Even at the larger conferences I've been to (few RailsConfs, and even Ruby on
Ales) I can't recall more than a couple people who I would consider
intoxicated (and that's just giving the benefit of the doubt, they may have
just been odd people), much less the majority.

People have drinks, and talk shop. A few may get silly later on, but those are
the few.

Maybe the JS scene is different?

------
Scobleizer
Even those of us who are almost professional conference goers get tired of
this stuff eventually. I know I far prefer having a couple of awesome
programmers over my house for a great conversation. Just did that this
morning, actually, when the folks behind FluidInfo came over. No beers were
consumed.

What Ryan should do is focus on hackathons and other, smaller, places where
code actually gets written, shared, and discussed. There are plenty of those
every week. At least there are in places like San Francisco. Every week or so
there's a Node.js hackathon in our office at Rackspace. Generally folks have a
choice of whether to stick around for beers after a long day, and even when
the beers came out, at about 6 p.m. during dinner, it wasn't anything like a
SXSW drinking fest.

Some other feedback:

1\. Conferences are awful places to have real, deep, conversations. Why?
There's an opportunity cost to spending any time with any specific person.
Heck, you can be talking to someone very interesting, like Bram Cohen, who
wrote Bittorrent and then Eric Ries walks by and you lose interest in Bram all
of a sudden. It's far better to see if you can get Bram together at your
house, or in a hackathon, where there's only 40 other programmers than hang
out at some party with 200 other cool people you want to meet.

2\. When you're in a noisy situation, like at a party (even one without
alcohol, they do happen, but rarely) it's just not a great place to have a
conversation. I remember being at one Techcrunch party and I couldn't even
talk to the developers there. Why? I couldn't hear them and they were two feet
away. So, I started drinking and smiling. Horrid for actually discussing
anything important. I stopped going to those too, my time is better spent
sitting down with someone in a quiet place and actually learning something.

Parties, to me, are only about one thing now: collecting business cards and
making plans for meeting later on. That's what I did at SXSW. I had breakfast
with the guy who runs Al Jazeera and it was magical. That's what made the
parties worth it.

~~~
thenduks
Hi Robert, thanks for your comments! I think you're right that most
conferences just aren't the place for me. Fortunately I can often watch the
talks afterwards, so I should probably just focus on doing other things. It's
a shame, though, because other than the focus on alcohol and parties I
actually do really enjoy the conference atmosphere.

------
gurney_alex
Interesting article, thanks. I live in France, where it is forbidden to have
alcoholic beverages at work, so I'm a bit surprised reading your description
of the situation in the US. Same thing for the events I've attended (Linux
Expo, RMLL, XP Days, EuroPython...), where it certainly was possible to get a
beer (generally not for free), but no drinking parties were organized (or I
was not aware of them). So maybe you should consider moving on the other side
of the Atlantic where you could possibly feel more at ease :-)

\-- Gurney (<https://twitter.com/#!/gurneyalex>)

~~~
theorique
That surprises me that France prohibits drinks at work. Granted, most hip US
based companies that I've seen that have a bar do not have people drinking at
1pm. Usually it's a post-5pm happy hour thing, not a license to get hammered
with your colleagues.

I have a vision of Europe, and probably France in particular, as being far
more liberal about alcohol (but more conservative about abuse / overindulgence
in alcohol).

------
BoredAstronaut
Ryan,

You make a good point, but as others have noted, it's not right to single out
programmers. You are falling victim to a logical fallacy for lack of
sufficient data.

Casual, uninformed attitudes towards over-drinking, and over-indulgence in
general, are a problem for society and individuals, but it's a subtle problem.
One which, I'm afraid, your blunt instrument will not help much in addressing.
I fear you've only succeeded in alienating a lot of people who will not be
able to apply the proper filters to your arguments, or your approach.

Cultural and social behaviors are complex. Take the human brain, already
astoundlingly sophisticated, and then mix it up with 10^(3|6|9)'s of others in
a multi-dimensional loosely coupled, feedback-rich system. How do you
influence such a system? Short answer: you don't, at least not unilaterally or
deterministically.

A better approach to condemning something you don't like is to offer an
alternative that you do, and attract like-minded people. This is how the world
changes. Leave others to continue their destructive and habitual behaviors;
it's their right/privilege.

I guarantee that their are thousands of of programmers who would happily take
a break from inebriated venting sessions to participate in something more
productive or inspirational. But on the other hand, most good programmers
already spend all day doing that.

The challenge is to combine mental stimulation with something non-
intellectual, something which creates a relaxing, atmospher, as opposed to
something tense and stressful. Generally, alcohol or other depressants are the
most time-efficient technique for relaxing, hence it's popularity. But also,
booze is designed to be tasty, and bars are designed to be relaxing and fun.
The fact that people over-indulge is just a classic example of another logical
phallacy: if A is good, more of A is always better. But the concept of proper
proportions is abstract and subtle

Most young men under twenty-five have incompletely developed brains. Since
they drive the industry in many ways, they simply can't act on the insights
you're trying to share, even if they understand them abstractly. The power of
socialization instincts and hormones are too powerful.

So my advice to you is to find a select group of more astute and self-aware
programmers who know what you're about, and go drinking with them, since they
will be more restrained and more interested in intellectual exploration, and
less in trying to prove their ability to hold their liquor.

------
tillk
Not sure if I'd paint it so black and white, I think in general I have been in
many of these things as well.

On both ends – I guess more on the 'I'm getting a drink' one because I agree
that after a while there is no reason to stay sober anymore, because everyone
else is on their way already. It's either that or go home, which I do
frequently as well. But it very much depends on the kind of people I am with –
in many cases it's not just colleagues or people I find interesting in terms
of technological background: they are my actual friends (not Facebook-
friends).

And despite getting smashed I've still had a lot of interesting conversations
and discussions with people in the same setting. I don't want to call anyone
out which is why I won't name names, but I think all (three) conferences I
attended last year had an "open bar" at some point and it was still worth
while.

One was an amazing weekend of great talks, conversations, food and drinks.

And I don't regret going to any of these either. For starters, I can stop
whenever I want and go back to my hotel or go home. I can still stay around
and not drink anything and chat with others all night if I want to. Or do the
opposite and have a drink with them.

I personally caught myself pondering about how you keep a level of
professionalism – e.g. when you see your work mates (and/or superiors) drunk
all the time, how do you keep the respect around?

We hired a lot of people in the last two years and while it's good to be
friends with everyone you work with, I think there is a gray area of how far
you want to go. There is work and after-work and in the end, some people
manage it and others do not. For myself, I just decided to not shift into last
gear when I go out with them and that means I can still have a good time and
even have a drink if I want to. Got that much self-control (or maybe just fear
of the next day).

I'm not sure I agree on a ban for alcohol from conferences. I can see where
you're coming from and I'd like to think people should consume within reason,
but I'm sure that doesn't really work out at all. At least for the majority.
In the end it's always freedom of choice.

I give you that though: Maybe drinks should not be free so people don't get
wasted right on. Whoever sponsors them could also sponsor something else, or
something more worth while.

~~~
BoredAstronaut
There is this old-fashioned idea called "professionalism", which seems to have
been inadvertently discarded along with dress codes, and of which they were
once emblematic. Work is not home, is not friends (wholly), and is most
certainly not college (unless it is).

I kid myself that if there was a better age, sex and cultural mix in software
companies, these kinds of extremes would be tempered. It would be a start. Is
programming the new advertising? Or is it just a side-effect of success?

~~~
tillk
People are enjoying themselves. It's a matter of personal opinion if this is
the kind of environment you want to be in. Maybe sometimes it's out of control
and more a frat party than a conference.

For the record, the opposite is probably not what most people want either. And
I wouldn't want to work in the opposite environment either.

In the end it's up to the people attending and of course up to the people
organizing what they make of it.

------
jessed
Re: Brogrammers

I don't think that drinking has anything to do with the brogrammer trend.
Drinking was around before the brogrammer trend and it's going to be around
after. The author states that drinking might be the cause of the brogrammer
trend but the offers nothing to support that claim and does not elaborate
further.

Nobody is discussing drinking as a cause of this because it's not.

~~~
ahoyhere
You're right. The drinking was always epic at OSCON in the early 2000s -- a
conf that has historically been full of the purest OSS nerds, least brogrammer
types. And let's not even get started on PERL events. Free as in beer, you
know.

~~~
fs111
FOSDEM - beer event :-D

------
DrillBitterMan
It's hard to argue with the points of the author's article. It's very easy,
however, to argue with a simplistic misunderstanding of the author's article.
Basically, if you think this is about not liking drinking, you are wrong (in
my opinion). If, on the other hand, you think this is about exclusion, and
tailoring fora for a particular demographic, and then failing to acknowledge
that tailoring, then you are correct (in my opinion). The author goes to great
lengths to illustrate his point, and then somehow that escapes many of these
commentators. That's unfortunate, because that failure detracts from the more
fruitful dialogue that could be occurring. Will more reading help? No idea.
Will more comments help? I have no idea. Maybe the author's article will
resonate with enough people who can make a difference that things will
improve.

~~~
thenduks
Hi there, you definitely hit the nail on the head - at least as far as what I
was _trying_ to say. My post was hyperbolic and ranty - mostly on purpose -
and I think for some people that didn't help get across my point as they
latched onto the literal parts of what I said... Such is life. There has been
quite a bit of discussion on the subject since, and that's good enough for me.

Thanks!

------
xpaulbettsx
The comparison to sexism is pretty offensive to me (even though you try to
minimize it early in the article, yet bring it up again via a link at the
end). You're privileged to have the option to just not go to the party after
the conference - women don't get to just "not be women".

~~~
ahoyhere
It's sexist to assume all women have problems with conferences simply because
they're women, or that we all think the same. Just sayin'.

~~~
xpaulbettsx
I realized that I sounded that way after I was unable to edit it :-/
Expressing meaning via written text = tricky.

~~~
ahoyhere
I'm sure you meant well. This is simply what happens when people make
mountains out of _miniature_ molehills, repeatedly and ludicrously, all over
the internet.

~~~
mjwalshe
Well at least hes not yet in the same boat as poor Samantha Brick and getting
crucified on twitter.

------
briandear
He needs to lighten up! All day long I stare at screens solving problems. A
beer often serves as a great way to relax and de-stress. His abhorrence of
alcohol is perfectly within his rights, but he shouldn't act self righteous
and judge others. The post reads almost like a temperance movement column from
1917 and is equally ridiculous.

There's also a big difference between a beer in the company fridge (like
Pivotal, ZocDoc, iCouch, DPL, etc,) and doing keg stands next to the pairing
stations. The absolutism of the blog was my biggest complaint. Moderation has
a place between the extreme of binge lunacy and strict teetotaling.

~~~
thenduks
Hi. I have to say, I am all about moderation. It's absolutely not my intention
to say "no alcohol, ever." I just think it should be distanced from the
official material/tone of conferences. The article was meant to get people
talking, and it has, and I felt like I had to be a bit dramatic and abrasive
to get people to listen.

------
abernardes
I've met a bunch of people who don't drink, but are perfectly able to
socialize in those situations. It seems to me you're bothered by those few who
can't handle liquor, and making a huge generalization about people who drink.
No worries, it seems to be a common mistake in those rants. But I have to
disagree with the title of your post: You're not being excluded by people who
drink. You're excluding yourself.

~~~
nknight
I share his observations. At one company, I gave up on trying to have any
meaningful conversations with anybody on Fridays, because everyone was too
fucked up to speak intelligently. This was not a little startup, either.

------
getpost
I've noticed the prevalence of alcohol in the tech workplace has increased in
the last few decades. In the 80s, in Silicon Valley, a Friday beer bash was
not unusual, but it wasn't every Friday, and alcohol wasn't offered at other
times. Back then, for me as a young person, that seemed very cool and
generous. It was definitely not routine among employers generally.

Lately, I've been to lots of meetups at tech companies in SF, and beer on tap
seems to be freely available at all times at every location I've visited. In
some cases, the tap is right smack in the middle of the main work area.

I have no problem at all with people who use alcohol or other drugs
responsibly, but it's hard to see how providing alcohol in the workplace is
skillful or wise. Possibly you're promoting camaraderie, but at what cost to
clarity and wholesome connection and the long term of health of employees?

It would be interesting to do a study and determine whether freely available
alcohol increases productivity or other measures of employee or customer well-
being, and whether it and has any health effects. I'm thinking it has to be a
net negative, but I'd like to see real data.

Times have changed on campus too. At nearly all colloquia I attend, there are
snacks and beverages. I don't remember that ever being offered when I was a
student in the 70s - no free food then.

So, we seem to be living in an increasingly generous world. People naturally
want to give and that impulse is finding new expression. Food and drink are
routinely offered. I expect free housing will be soon be offered in some
places. Open source software is readily available. Knowledge on the web is
freely offered. This is great! It's changing everything! The pitfall is that
we're also being generous in ways that may work to undermine our collective
well being.

------
dlf
The only requirement I have for these things is that the after event drinks
are held at a place where you don't have to raise your voice to have a
conversation. Most pubs are satisfactory for that purpose.

I've never seen anyone get completely hammered at these things, but I don't
stay until the wee hours either. I think the fact that your networking at an
event in your profession should temper you a bit, and from what I've seen, it
does for most people. You don't want to make yourself out to be an ass that
can't hold it together. That, in my mind, is the difference between having
nice conversation over a few drinks and "binge drinking." Binge drinkers are
there to get blackout drunk as fast as possible, not to meet new folks and
have interesting conversation.

Having said that, I don't think I've ever actually witnessed binge drinking at
a tech event.

As a rule, I try to keep things to one drink an hour. Any more than that and I
start getting buzzed and quality of conversation falls off a bit.

~~~
mjwalshe
I remember at a meeting with BSI and the head of the IS9000 project told us
about when he was younger working as a salesman for ICL in Russia - people
would pass out in restaurants and the bouncers would pic them up and throw
them outside into a snowbank in the middle of a Moscow winter. Now thats binge
drinking.

------
ericography
I don't have a good time/don't get as much as I could out of some conferences
because of this issue. Due to a medical condition I have a sensitivity to
chemicals. Just smelling alcohol (or cigarette smoke, detergents, cleaning
products, ...) makes me ill. It's not something that I--as some of the
commenters here have advised--can learn to accept.

------
kewlniss
I put my thoughts on the post and folks reaction to it from twitter on my blog
at <http://kewlniss.com/>

Summary: As with everything, moderation is the key. Anything to excess is bad
– including coding non stop and constantly thinking about work. That is excess
and it isn’t healthy and I constantly do it.

------
jayroh
I understand his position completely and I can get behind his message - tone
down the alco-centric messaging. That could have been a single tweet and not
this long diatribe.

What I don't understand is the patronizing hyperbole.

The bit that irks me the most is the insinuation that this is an incubator for
"brogrammers" and that because people like to go out for a drink with people
they see maybe once a year they're "douchey" and like "wall street bankers"?
Dude. Way off base, condescending, and border-line offensive.

Who knows how much overlap exists between these two groups but I'd like to
point out that it was _programmers_ who were sending Steve Klabnik's poor
ailing father birthday cards. I'd probably guess that a few of those people
are going out for a beer (or two, or 5) after the next ruby-related conference
AND they're not "douchey".

------
loso
I don't go to too many conferences but I have been to a couple of hackathons
and meet ups in NYC. Before I became a programmer I worked in a lot of
nightclubs. And maybe its just a matter of scale from what I've seen before
but I don't see drinking being that big in the programming community. I'm a
non drinker and even when I worked in the clubs I never felt pressured to
drink.There have been plenty of times when I'm the only one drinking Pepsi
while everyone else has a rum and coke.

If you have an issue with people getting sloppy drunk at conferences, I can
see that being a problem. But if you're just talking about moderate drinking
after the conferences or work to unwind then just go, don't drink, and have
fun. I doubt very many people will be judging you.

------
steveh73
I don't get it. Do people give you shit for not drinking when you go to
events? I've never had any problem when I decide I don't feel like drinking
that day. You say you don't want to tell people what to do, but you want them
to stop drinking?

~~~
petercooper
In some situations, not following the behavior of the crowd has an effect.
I've been at parties where people were passing round a bong or whatever and
declined and it definitely separates you from the group for better or worse.

I'm old and stubborn enough now to know that if I don't want to do something,
being outside of the crowd is no big deal. But it's still something that
occurs, and some people are particularly sensitive to the effects of going
against the flow or find it very difficult to do that.

------
joshontheweb
Fair point, but I doubt it will change anything. Why not throw your own
hackfests during the conferences for those who don't want to go out drinking.
Perhaps many that go out are only doing it for lack of something better to do.

------
prodigal_erik
I'm not really a conference-goer but I thought the parties were kind of the
point. I'll go see someone famous like <http://www-cs-
faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/musings.html> out of sheer tourist curiosity, but if
you're just some guy, I'd rather read what you have to say (and unlimited
followups) at my leisure than sit through the lecture format. A dry meet&greet
could work, but only if there's a critical mass of interesting people who are
equally comfortable doing that while sober (i.e., not using a buzz to damp
social anxiety).

------
theorique
Maybe it doesn't matter, but I didn't see anywhere in the article _why_ Ryan
chooses not to drink. Obviously, his own choice with what to choose to put in
his body. But I have definitely wondered about the influence of the culture on
those who don't drink for cultural or religious reasons (e.g. Muslim, Mormon)
Are we losing talented people who don't want to be part of that aspect of the
culture?

Protip: on nights when I choose not to drink, I usually drink club soda with a
bunch of lime wedges (like 3-4). I love the taste of it, it looks like a gin
and tonic or vodka and soda and no one ever asks.

~~~
pbiggar
I don't think why he doesn't drink should have any bearing on it. He feels
excluded from the culture, and it doesn't matter whether that's because he's
religious, an alcoholic, etc.

Similarly, one shouldn't have to pretend to be drinking to enjoy a night in
the pub (note, I'm a non-drinker who feels perfectly at home in the pub).

~~~
theorique
I agree - this is largely my own curiosity (nosiness).

It's clear that the OP had a very strong objection. This kind of passion
doesn't generally emerge from nowhere, so I was curious about what was really
driving him. (And I reiterate - if he chooses not to drink, he is of course
answerable to no one. His body, his choice.)

At the same time, it's fruitful to fish where the fish are. If a person wants
to have conversations with tech people and the tech people are at the pub he
can either go to the pub or engage with them at some other time / place. Seems
Ryan has chosen the latter.

I also agree that one need not be pretending to drink or ashamed of not
drinking. Not at all. I use my fake-drink for convenience, to stave off the
Nth person asking me why I don't have a beer in my hand or whatever.

~~~
pbiggar
> I also agree that one need not be pretending to drink or ashamed of not
> drinking. Not at all. I use my fake-drink for convenience, to stave off the
> Nth person asking me why I don't have a beer in my hand or whatever.

yet:

> I agree - this is largely my own curiosity (nosiness).

It seems every single person asks non-drinkers why they don't drink. For me,
who doesn't really have a reason, it's just a bit boring. But I imagine if I
had a real, or perhaps a painful reason, I wouldn't like to be reminded every
time I went to the pub.

~~~
theorique
_But I imagine if I had a real, or perhaps a painful reason, I wouldn't like
to be reminded every time I went to the pub._

Excellent point, and something I had not considered.

------
joedev
Great points. I often am dismayed that conferences and user groups seem more
like frat parties than a profession attempting to further itself. And we
wonder why progress plods.

------
guyincawgnito
Beer is lame. There should be more of an emphasis on weed and psychedelics.
Hey, it worked for Carl Sagan!

------
keza
I wrote this mobile web app in node.js <http://www.beveragelog.com/> So that
you can audit your abstinence, record your responsible drinking, or boast
about your binge drinking.

------
micahalles
Drinking is better than playing werewolf.

------
DanBC
I have some sympathy for the article writer. S/he was perhaps a bit
hyperbolic.

I'd suggest just taking business cards to the parties; meet people, swap
cards, get a few details, and then leave when it gets too much. That's really
the only use you'll get from them. But at least you've made the introduction
and a follow-up email a few days later will get some results.

Excessive drinking is a problem. In the UK we have a concept of "Units of
alcohol" to try to help people understand how much alcohol they drink. Men
should have no more than 3 or 4 units per day. (women no more than 2 or 3.
(Current advice is none at all while pregnant, but that's based on a
precautionary principle because the safe limit isn't known, rather than known
harm at 1 unit per week.)) They also recommend some drink free days each week,
and strongly suggest that units cannot be "saved up" to use later in the week.
(EG: Drink free monday through thursday then fockin' blindo friday and
saturday.) One unit of alcohol used to be a pub measure of spirits, or half a
pint of beer, or a small glass of wine. Because alcohol strength has increased
beer and wine are often more than one unit in a pub measure.

One unit is 125 ml of wine at 8% Alcohol by Volume. Most wine is sold in 150
ml or 175 ml (for a small glass) and 250 ml for a large glass. Most wine is at
least 10% ABV, but 12% is not uncommon.

This nice chart shows 250 ml at 12%ABV is 3 units. One large glass a day is
skirting the safe drinking limits.

([http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Units_of_alcohol_char...](http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Units_of_alcohol_chart.svg))

It's easy to see that people drinking a couple of glasses of wine in the
evenings after work do not see themselves as having a problem with alcohol.
Add in extra social time drinking and some people get very high levels of
alcohol.

It really is a problem in the UK.

This article mentions someone drinking a remarkable amount:

(<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-15997695>)

But these articles mention much more reasonable drinking is also a problem:

(<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-16869618>)

(Very annoyingly they say things like "triples the risk of mouth cancer" which
is meaningless to most people.)

And this article recommends some time to recover after heavy drinking:

(<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-15415713>)

This article has some suggestions about binge drinking in the UK. We have
weird pubs - vertical drinking environments - where seating is limited, music
is noisy, food isn't served. All these things increase the amount that people
drink. While it's technically illegal to serve someone who is drunk I've never
ever seen anyone refused alcohol, and I have seen many people barely able to
ask for the drink being served.

(<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16466646>)

~~~
mjwalshe
you do know that the whole "units" measure was made up when they needed a
unit.

------
wyattdanger
this article really takes the fun out of funduk

------
ahoyhere
I go to conf after-parties and I barely drink at all any more, due to a health
problem. Nobody has ever given me shit, and I enjoyed myself just as much as
ever. I originally worried that people were going to seem obnoxious when they
were drunk and I was sober, but it was an unfounded fear. I can count on one
hand the times I've thought "wow, that's a sloppy drunk."

Sounds to me like the author is trying hard to conjure up a problem.

------
mjwalshe
Oh dear me looks like the OP desnt get out much if he think programmers drink
a lot he shold hang out out with Civil engineers or Squaddies or goto a
Political conference where you know your feeling your age when you can't stay
in the bar till 4 go back to you room write three speaches and win your
motions.

~~~
BoredAstronaut
That sounds like good (?) old-fashioned male competitiveness.

~~~
mjwalshe
Only up to a point - an RSM (CSM) of my aquaintance commented on the use of
drinking as a bonding mechanisiam commented "oh and the girls are much worse"
:-)

There are far more important issues around Exclusion than liking a beer - how
many Black (ie sub sharan descent) or Female programmers have you worked with
for example.

------
nkostelnik
bye then.

------
kungfooguru
Drink what I want, not what you want.

------
samj
OP gives up drinking, decides the rest of his industry has to as well. I'll
get right on that.

