
37 rental cars – 2 days – 185,000 miles earned - rplnt
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trip-reports/1708084-37-rental-cars-2-days-185-000-miles.html
======
dpflan
When considering the exploitation of these airline mileage opportunties, one
should never forget the 'Pudding Man'.
[http://www.snopes.com/business/deals/pudding.asp](http://www.snopes.com/business/deals/pudding.asp)

Of course this makes me wonder about how the exploited companies respond. The
exploiters can be identified (are companies afraid of lawsuits and public
defamation)? Is such a story like an advertisement that may make someone (a
reader) slightly more likely to use Avis (in this case) in the future?

~~~
violentvinyl
I would venture a guess that the publicity generated by something like this
far outweighs the REAL cost to the company. For people who collect air miles
(and especially on FT), the value of the miles is very important, but it never
takes into account the wholesale price (which, from my research, is a closely
guarded secret). I would assume, at some point, Avis must have to pay the
airline where these points are redeemed (whether that's through a few
different intermediaries or not), but you would assume that they are NOT
paying the retail cost of the flights. This is why you can do things like
trading loyalty points from flights for car rentals and vice versa. They are
so heavily diluted by these programs, and people are (I assume) drawn in by
the promise of points, it's all still a great deal for these companies, even
if someone ocassionally figures out a way to beat the system. Much the way one
lucky gambler doesn't exactly break the bank at a casino, but insteads give
everyone else a bit of encouragement to try and beat the system themselves.

~~~
nly
If the breakdowns given by the airlines are to be believed, the bulk of the
retail cost of a plane ticket these days are in taxes, fees and duties.

I booked a ~£400 return flight from the UK to the States just a few weeks ago
and the airline claim to be only getting 40% of that. I'm not sure where fuel
fits in.

~~~
slg
For what it is worth, flights between the UK and the US are some of the most
heavily taxed flights in the world. Sometimes you are better off with a
connecting flight from a European carrier that stops somewhere like France or
Ireland.

~~~
arprocter
The strangest thing I've come across was saving several hundred pounds by
booking a return flight instead of one way, and just not using the flight
back.

~~~
JoshGlazebrook
This is what SkipLagged does for customers.

------
Cshelton
These flyertalk guys are crazy. Yes, it's awesome, but I can never imagine
having the time to do this...Like the guys who fly from DFW -> NYC -> LA ->
back to NYC -> SF -> back to LA -> back to NYC -> back to DFW all in a little
o=ver a day and for about $360. Yeah, it's cool, but you are traveling without
leaving the airport. Not my idea of fun.

~~~
arcticbull
Haha start of the year I flew, with 7 other people, SFO-LAX-BOS-DFW-HKG-DFW-
SFO in the span of a weekend for $1000 ^_^ walked away with 60,000 mi, top-
tier status at American thanks to a now-defunct promo, and 10 systemwide
upgrades (each). If you enjoy the hobby, there's really nothing better.

Then, later in the year, I redeemed 75,000mi per person for a round trip in
Etihad Apartments to the Maldives ^_^ Both the earn and the burn side can be a
great time.

Going back to Hong Kong later in the year, paid $2200 for a round trip
business class ticket on AA from DFW-HKG, upgraded to first and thanks to 3
stacked promos, earn 70,000mi and that round trip alone gets me 1/3 of the way
to EXP status for next year.

~~~
_xander
From an environmental perspective, these kinds of economic incentives seem
highly damaging. Not that I've got anything against you for exploiting them.

~~~
imgabe
The planes are flying regardless of the people seeking frequent flyer miles.
Aside from the marginal fuel increase due to the increased load, there's not
much impact.

~~~
slg
"No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." \- Stanisław Jerzy Lec

~~~
imgabe
On the other hand:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle)

Nobody ever stopped an avalanche by targeting individual snowflakes.

------
gknoy
One takeaway from this article, for me, was that Avis' customer service, and
the agents at these rental places specifically, were __awesome__. This is the
kind of experience that would lead a customer like me to choose Avis over
their competition when traveling, for example.

~~~
switch007
I've used Avis in Canada, UK, Spain and Australia - a fair sample. Not all
Avis outlets are the same. For example in Spain they will happily scam you
with Dynamic Currency Conversion. Don't take this one event and think Avis are
angels. Try the flyertalk forum for Avis..

To be fair though, Avis don't particularly stand out - all car hire companies
pull these "tricks" (some people have alleged fraudulant).

------
wpietri
Can HN folks help me come up with a catchy name for something here? In
particular, when somebody enriches themselves in a way that's a net negative
when you look at the whole system.

Here, for example, the guy says he "earned" €3k in a way that was almost
perfectly wasteful. I'm not so worried about him; crazies gonna cray, and he
knows that this is ridiculous. But there are so many people who have jobs that
are equally wasteful but don't know it. E.g., all those people flooding in to
the US mortgage industry to help inflate the 2004-2008 housing bubble with
dodgy loans.

I want a punchy word or phrase that can a) help the rest of us talk about the
problem, and b) at least occasionally puncture the bubble of self-
justification that lets this go on. "Quack" and "scam artist" are good
examples of what I'm after, but I want one specific to this phenomenon.

~~~
arnehormann
It's a non-classical example of arbitrage.

~~~
forgetsusername
Methinks you miss the OP's point.

It isn't the name of the actual mechanism for the financial gain. It's a title
for the idea of doing something wasteful, perhaps even net negative for
society, for a very minor personal surplus. In this example, the guy wasted
gas, created traffic, occupied employees time, put wear and tear on vehicles
and roads and spent two days driving in circles...all for $2000.

People are free to do what they want, and the "exploitation" is fair game, but
it seems odd to me too.

~~~
dublinben
I think you're being unnecessarily negative. This gentleman took a three day
vacation, participated in his hobby, and earned $2000 for the pleasure.

~~~
wpietri
No, forgetsusername has me exactly right.

My point is that he didn't _earn_ anything. He was _given_ something worth
€3000 after performing assorted actions. But earning is about an exchange of
value. He did nothing valuable for Avis; he instead wasted their time and
resources.

He only earned this money to the extent that pickpockets earn what they take
out of wallets, or what con artists take from their victims. Sure, they work
hard, and sure, they get money from it. That's not earning, that's taking.

~~~
kelnos
That's a bit harsh, comparing this to pickpockets and con artists.

Also consider that he now has 185k miles that he didn't have before. He might
use those miles to take a vacation that he wouldn't otherwise have taken,
which will in turn pour real money into the local economy of the place he
visits.

~~~
wpietri
I agree that it's an unpleasant truth, but I think it's the truth.

Imagine he went to a local car company that had just two stores. Imagine he
says to the owner, "Hey, I'm going to pay you €418 to drive one of your cars
back and forth between your stores for two days. You do all the paperwork as
if I'm renting the car 36 times. And then you buy €3000 worth of air miles and
give them to me. How about it?"

No rational business owner would do that. They only reason Avis did that is
that they are so large that they can't run it sensibly; instead, like
programmers, they try to construct systems of rules that approximate a sane
business. This guy found a bug in the system, forcing Avis to do something
that is definitely not in their best interests.

It's a smart and well-constructed scam, but it's definitely a scam. And the
guy knows it. He carefully tests Avis rules. He works around Avis's
safeguards. He knew not to push it too far, which is why he limited it to two
days. And I'll lay good money right now that there's already some programmer
at Avis who is writing code to look for reservations like this and
automatically consolidate them, as well as a lawyer who's wondering how to
change the T&Cs to prevent this.

As to the latter bit, that is true of any scammer. For example, think of all
the good that fake Nigerian princes could do with the money they take.

------
1024core
Not to threadjack, but: people are mentioning "priority access at security" as
a perk of higher FF status. Which begs the question: _what_ does FF status
have to do with security? You could get a higher status by just renting a car
(or cars, as per the story). Does that make you a less of a security threat at
the airport? Shouldn't security be independent of your status in some points
collecting game??

~~~
arcticbull
A lot of people do this; you're conflating 'status' and 'earning points' \--
none of the miles earned here count towards elite status. You can't get elite
status from 'just renting cars'. You generally (with a few exceptions) need to
fly 25, 50, 75 or 100K BIS ("butt-in-seat") miles each year.

Security takes time at airports and airlines want to look after their best
customers, so they have arrangements with TSA/airport officials to create a
shorter line for passengers with status and passengers in premium cabins.
Doesn't affect what happens when you get to the end of it.

~~~
Someone1234
This is totally accurate. I just want to add, that the TSA now has "TSA Pre"
(or Pre-Check) which categorically DOES impact the level of screening pax need
(i.e. they need less screening with TSA Pre). Express doesn't (you just skip
the queue), TSA Pre does.

This is free to members of Global Entry, SENTRI or NEXUS programs, active duty
[US] military, DoD employees and other federal employees with security
clearance. For everyone else it costs $85/5 years ($17/year~) and may require
an in-person interview.

I'd argue that if you are a frequent traveller, this is BETTER than status at
the moment. The TSA Pre line is shorter and moves quicker than even the
express line. And if you travel even semi-regularly $85/5 years is almost
nothing compared to the time and hassle savings (look at it as one trip's lost
lounge access).

~~~
rufo
I'd argue the extra $15 for Global Entry is worth it, if you're considering
signing up for a Trusted Traveler program. You can go from landing in the US
to curbside in single-digit minutes, and even if you don't often fly
internationally, skipping one gigantic miss-your-connection-long line is worth
it.

If you live nearby (or can easily get to) a Canadian border point, NEXUS is an
even better value. $50 for five years, includes Global Entry privileges, and
you get expedited access in and out of Canada - dedicated lanes if you drive,
Global Entry-style kiosks if you fly. It can take a month or two for your
interview however as both governments have to approve you.

I do have mixed feelings about forking over money to a system I would much
rather see replaced or overhauled. However, considering how often I've flown
in the last couple years, my NEXUS membership has absolutely been worth it for
Pre-√ alone, and the times I've used NEXUS/GE have been equally handy.

~~~
arcticbull
+1 to Nexus. I've had it for years and it's really improved my travel
experience more than my AA EXP status ;) well except for the upgrades.

------
anonu
I view this as simple arbitrage. There's an opportunity to take and you take
it first.... Lots of other comments somehow point to the fact that this is
parasitic behaviour. Well, this is human behaviour.

Here's an even simpler credit card point arb:

[http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/mint-closes-
loop...](http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/mint-closes-loophole-
ends-credit-card-coin-sales-frequent-flyer-flier-miles-1263.php)

The story in a nutshell: "On July 22, 2011, the U.S. Mint said it was ending
credit and debit card sales of $1 coins because of "individuals purchasing $1
coins with credit cards, accumulating frequent flier miles, and then returning
coins to local banks ... While not illegal, this activity was a clear abuse
and misuse of the program."

~~~
mikeash
I can't understand calling this "parasitic." Doesn't that imply that what's
going on is somehow against the will of whatever you're exploiting?

If a company sets up a promotion, it's their responsibility to ensure that the
terms are favorable to them. If they screw it up then they should have thought
it through some more.

Loss leaders are a time-honored way to attract customers, but anyone who uses
them must be aware that sometimes the "loss" in "loss leader" is all you get.
You either need to make your terms accordingly, or bet on the average being
beneficial even if you lose out on some individuals.

~~~
FireBeyond
The Mint has to pay credit card processing fees for these sales. That's one
thing as a cost of business to one of their stated aims, putting currency in
circulation, but another altogether if it's just a round trip for no net gain.

~~~
mikeash
Maybe they should have figured out a better way to accomplish this goal, then.

------
_kyran
My favourite was this guy who wrote a script that processed 7000 1 cent
donations netted him 380,000 points:

[http://www.brw.com.au/p/marketing/nab_taken_for_frequent_fly...](http://www.brw.com.au/p/marketing/nab_taken_for_frequent_flyer_ride_D845R7c9uKhD7R17SlvawO)

------
weatherlight
This reminds me of this episode of Seinfeld.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bottle_Deposit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bottle_Deposit)

------
smackfu
When you are trying these kind of system exploits, it really helps to not have
to deal with any humans. It would be very easy for this plan to be shut down
by someone in the office just refusing to rent to you after the first car,
because they see you are trying to game the system.

~~~
notahacker
In practice, I suspect the reps earn commissions on rentals, incur no
penalties at all for the frequent flyer bonus, and were quite happy once
they'd satisfied themselves that the payments would be made and the cars were
only going to be driven by the renter and would be returned in one piece.

The risk of some auditing process, computerised or otherwise, highlighting the
error and not actually crediting the miles is still pretty high though...

------
msoad
If you like credit card churning, people at
[https://www.reddit.com/r/churning](https://www.reddit.com/r/churning) are
telling others about churning opportunities

------
jameshart
So because this involves high status goods - flights, car rentals, etc - it's
a cool hack; but when an old woman exploits the couponing rules at Market
Basket and gets a cart full of canned goods for 25c, I can't help feeling
that's not going to make the front page of HN...

~~~
anthony_d
Not my thing but it is impressive and clearly there is at least some
demographic that does find the game entertaining.

Maybe not HN, but there is a show devoted to that kind of thing:
[http://www.tlc.com/tv-shows/extreme-couponing/](http://www.tlc.com/tv-
shows/extreme-couponing/)

~~~
smackfu
And some of the people on that show who _really_ exploit the coupons seem to
be ex-white-collar alpha-types turned stay-at-home parents who would be the
same people who do these mileage hacks back when they were travelling for
work.

------
Theodores
The problem with these 'who can consume the most' competitions to game the
system is that there are 'external costs' placed on everyone else. Planes are
noisy, they pollute and they crash.

In West London the annoyance begins at 4.30 a.m. and goes on until 11 at
night, with another plane load of really important people arriving every two
minutes. If we didn't have people going about on senseless travel all the time
then the airport could be closed for long enough for people in West London to
get some uninterrupted sleep. I don't think people gobbling up air miles care
about these 'externalities'. I know they can't see past their own greed, but,
what about noise, climate change and the fact that we do not have more than
one planet's worth of hydrocarbons to waste?

Also, fun that it may have been in Madeira, Madeira used to be unspoilt. The
place deserves better than some idiot hiring cars and driving them in circles
all day. Again, noise, pollution and wastage. Despite the photos, I don't
believe this is 'take only photos, leave only footprints', driving around
madly for one day is not doing justice to what Madeira has to offer. It is
quite an insulting attitude, typical for an American where community was
swapped for this inane frequent flyer culture where nobody knows their
neighbour or cares about things like the planet.

I do not actually fly any more, mainly because I have better things to do with
my time (not because I think that I can save the planet by using my bicycle
instead). In the work context I get more done from the one desk than those
around me that have to do lots of flying for 'work'. I am also quite bemused
at those that do travel for leisure - these days they come back and have
nothing to say on their first day back, it is not like they are infused with
mega-enthusiasm from the amazing things they saw and people they made
acquaintance with. Did I not get the memo that you must not talk about your
holiday?!?

Also odd with the mass-flying-disease is that the fuel in those planes is not
taxed. Would these air miles schemes work if things were taxed properly?
People that fly don't tend to care about that. You would think they would
think about that whilst being waited on by effective slaves in parts of the
world where human labour is not considered a valuable resource to be rewarded
accordingly.

~~~
icebraining
I think that's overreacting. As pointed out, the earned miles are not _that_
many (a couple of Europe-US roundtrips), and the 37 trips of 1.2km to get the
promotion weren't exactly that many either.

As for the "insulting attitude", who exactly is feeling insulted? Nobody from
Madeira I know (I'm Portuguese myself, so I know a few) would feel "insulted".

Curiously, the people I know who travel more by plane are those from Madeira
(and Açores), since they don't have access to a lot of stuff in the islands.
In reality, their lifestyle is much more polluting than someone who pulls a
stunt like this every few years.

~~~
Theodores
I look back on air travel of former times with incredulity - being able to
smoke on a plane is one excerpt that particularly takes the biscuit. Concorde
was quite incredible too, but the world has moved on to this new madness of
easy-hack TSA locks, bullshit terror stories and lame air miles schemes. (As
it happens I am looking after a house right now because the occupants have
gone on a cheap flight made possible through some frequent flyer scheme.)

People also used to go mad for Green Shield stamps from garages, racking up
far more miles on the road as a 'sales rep' than needed because there was this
marginal incentive of rubbish you could get with the Green Shield stamps. It
all worked wonderfully for a while and many people were delighted getting
things like 50 glass tumblers for their kitchen cupboards.

I am sure the people next to the Avis depots around the world are used to
people revving up their engines, slamming doors and shouting, but that does
not make it right. If you had something important to do, how would you feel if
there was someone parking a car every few minutes outside your place to drive
off again a few minutes later, repeating ad-nauseum? I personally would not
feel happy doing that sort of 'driving' even if I was in some faceless bit of
American surburbia where such activity was normal. I might not have cared when
I was a teenager but I didn't think very well in those days.

I also have connections with Madeira and I have seen the old photos from how
things used to be before the E.U. plonked some massive airport and motorway
there. It is a small island with a big runway, no surprise people on the
island use it instead of hitching a ride on a fishing boat. I have not stood
outside the departures lounge to count natives vs tourists but I am sure that
whole infrastructure was built for tourism, not so grandma in Funchal can
visit her relatives spread out all over the globe.

~~~
icebraining
I would I feel? I wouldn't particularly care.

Is it wasteful? Yes. Do I find it kind of dumb? Sure. But is it terrible?
Unless he was constantly doing it, not really.

Frankly, I doubt the problem here is really the pollution, but the fact that
he's spending that in something not considered "proper." Some guy might waste
much more taking a long vacation in some remote place, but the fact that this
person was doing something you and I consider dumb, makes him not deserve to
do so.

But I personally don't consider a person who produces 1T of CO2/year to
"travel properly" or "really know" the place they're visiting any more
deserving that someone who wastes the same amount to drive between Avis
stands. Unless he's actually wasting more than average - and we have no reason
to think that - who am I to tell him how to enjoy his life?

------
modfodder
Just waiting for one of these companies to create a "Hack the Promotion"
promotion. Customer who devises the most efficient hack wins (maybe
double/triple miles?).

------
paulsutter
He's really undervaluing his time and energy. Maybe this is a fun and exciting
game for him, but I'd think someone as clever and determined could do
something more productive.

And that's just /earning/ the miles, never mind using them. I have 1.4 million
miles because even the act of using them consumes a lot of clock time and
usually turns out a waste of energy (tickets based on mileage are rarely
available for the routes/dates I want to fly).

~~~
mikeash
Maybe you're undervaluing his fun and excitement instead.

------
bobwaycott
I cannot decide if this is brilliant or masochistic ( _and_ possibly still
brilliant). It's definitely outright weird to me.

~~~
rrrx3
It's definitely both.

------
neves
I think he forgot an important criteria about where to rent the cars, but, by
pure luck, got it right. He must have considered the "niceness" of the people
of the country he is travelling. Great that he got to Madeira, a very laid
back country with great people. Try to do it in ... ! (fill the blanks with
your preferred sullen people)

------
kybernetyk
I have deep respect and envy for some people's executive function. I would be
far too lazy to do this. :)

------
Loque
Relevant: [http://gizmodo.com/how-an-engineer-earned-1-25-million-
air-m...](http://gizmodo.com/how-an-engineer-earned-1-25-million-air-miles-by-
buying-1339646546)

~~~
jdmichal
> ... a one time cost of a little over $3000 (or a little over $2200 if you
> subtract the tax deduction) ...

How do people still not understand the difference between a tax deduction and
a tax credit? Deductions reduce your _income_ , not your tax burden. Even at
the highest 31% bracket for 1999, that deduction is only worth $248.

~~~
bpeebles
My reading is that he was able to donate nearly all of the $3,000 worth of
pudding, which means if his marginal tax rate had been about 27% that year,
he'd get about a $810 reduction in his taxes.

~~~
jdmichal
That's not what the text reads, but I suppose it's possible.

> But here’s the beautiful part, doing this counted as a considerable
> charitable donation, which let David claim just over _$800 back in tax
> deductions_ at the end of they year.

------
userbinator
_185,000 (frequent flyer) miles earned_

I guess this is useful only if you fly a _lot_...

~~~
grandalf
that's redeemable for about 4 round trip flights from the US to Europe.

~~~
monksy
That's in an econ seat. It's about 120k round trip for business/first.

~~~
grandalf
If you're willing to go to such lengths to get the miles, chances are first
class is not a priority.

~~~
monksy
FC on domestic nope. But if you ever want to fly first on Emerites, Quantas,
or Singapore... it's a heck of a lot cheaper to do it on award miles.

~~~
ubernostrum
I'm sitting on a cache of American Airlines miles equivalent to a business-
class round-trip to Sydney on Qantas, in anticipation of visiting Australia
sometime in the next couple years.

For a flight that's over 15 hours, you better believe it's worth it.

------
alexwebb2
This is why we can't have nice things.

------
coldcode
If a group of people did this and rented every car, would this not be a Denial
Of Service attack since no one else could rent a car?

~~~
deskamess
That's why the Avis employees assigned him 1 car at each site. He re-rented
that same car all the time. The employees mitigated the expected DOS with a
cached response. Both DOS'er and DOS'ee are happy.

Edit: Poor reading skills on my part... I just noticed you said 'group'.

------
klean92
_Accomodation 4 nights: €42_

Camping?

~~~
QuotedForTruth
He explained further down in the thread. Two cheap nights in guest houses, one
camping, and the last one in the airport before flying home.

------
bastian
Made my day!

------
hartator
It is why we can't have nice things.

~~~
rsync
This (the miles, etc.) is commercial air travel in 2015.

There were no nice things in the first place.

------
elcct
Writing Terms and Conditions is like programming. You have to think of even
unimaginable scenarios or face consequences.

~~~
pjmorris
Too bad there's not a fuzzer for English.

~~~
1_player
It's called a lawyer.

------
therealmarv
It's one thing to make a good deal. But IMHO it's another thing to behave like
a parasite.

~~~
Someone1234
> But IMHO it's another thing to behave like a parasite.

Is the name calling/vilifying really helpful?

Also companies remind us all the time that they're amoral, but when people
treat companies in an amoral fashion suddenly everyone gets upset about it.

The ironic thing is that Avis as a company has TONS of complaints. Just google
"Avis is a scam" and read all the stories about hidden charges, misleading
headline figures, and so on. Pages and pages of them... Because they're amoral
and only care about the bottom line.

Why is it wrong for people to only care about the bottom line?

~~~
wpietri
That isn't "name calling". It's just naming. What he did is very precisely
parasitical.

If it's wrong for Avis to be an amoral, predatory agent that focuses only on
what they get without regard to the costs, then it is _equally_ bad for this
person to do the same. In one way it's worse: he knows he's being
exploitative, where a lot of large-organization negative externality is due to
clueless systems, not conscious individual choice.

Approving of it because you don't like Avis and identify with this guy makes
the problem _worse_. Because now you've helped normalize exploitation as a
behavior, and people inside Avis will feel just as justified in their bad
behavior because they can see themselves as responding to "those awful
scamming customers".

~~~
dlss
> That isn't "name calling". It's just naming.

I see, fair enough. It was clearly wrong to assume you viewed his actions as
either moral or immoral.

> Avis [is] an amoral, predatory agent

> Approving of it [...] makes the problem worse.

> you've helped normalize exploitation as a behavior

On second thought, I'm pretty sure "name calling" was spot-on.

OP bought a good for the lowest price he could find. If you want to call that
exploitation, more power to you, but please don't try to pass off your moral
opinions as objective truths. It's slimy.

~~~
wpietri
That it is parasitic is factual. That parasitism is immoral is my opinion.

~~~
dlss
Progress! Let's keep going.

I think you meant to say "That it is parasitic is factual if I make a bunch of
assumptions about AVIS' profit margin and intent, as well as OP's past and
future business dealings with AVIS. That hypothetical parasitism is immoral is
my opinion."

As you get more practice making distinctions between what's true and what's
opinion, I think you'll find it easier to interact with different viewpoints
from your own :)

~~~
wpietri
There is no progress; my view has not changed. Nor will being anonymously
snotty do a lot to change it.

~~~
dlss
I didn't ask you to change your opinion, I merely asked you to become better
at expressing it as such.

Think of it like asking a Christian to say "X is what I believe" rather than
"you're going to hell"... it's more respectful to other viewpoints :)

~~~
wpietri
Continuing to be an anonymous, smug, superior dick is not improved by putting
smiley-faces at the end of it. If you're actually trying to be helpful, then
start with enough respect that you consider that I might have already
considered carefully the boundaries of opinion and fact.

~~~
dlss
In your 12 comments on this thread, you called OP or likened him to a
parasite, immoral, exploitative, wasteful, crazy, a pickpocket, a medical
quack, net negative to our society, a con artist, a scam artist, a Nigerian
scammer, "why we can't have nice things", morally bereft, manipulative, a time
waster, a waster of resources, and selfish.

I responded to this by asserting that you were making those claims by making
large assumptions about AVIS, OP's mental state / situation, and OP's past and
future dealings with AVIS.

I simply don't see how you can know the things your claiming to know without
access to that information. For example, you'd need to have an answer to: _did
AVIS make a profit on all this?_
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10215662](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10215662)
would seem to imply AVIS did make a profit, and OP is overvaluing airline
miles in an economic sense.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10221662](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10221662)
calls it into question from a different perspective.

If I was wrong in assuming you don't have that information, please correct me
and post it! I will happily read through it and perhaps join you in judging
OP. If you don't have the information, but feel there that the information is
not necessary, please describe how and I'll read it and respond. If neither of
these is true, please consider adding caveats to your statements in future. It
will help others understand you, and make debates more fruitful (#include the
replies to your other comments on this thread)

I don't normally engage with people making schoolyard-type statements, but did
so in this case because it felt like my civic duty -- it matters to me that
HackerNews remain a place for intelligent discussions. As you are probably
aware, my intent with the ":)"s were not to be mean but rather to let you know
I didn't have a problem with you as a person, only with your specific
behavior. It's hard to call out behavior civilly, but I tried (and think I
succeeded) in this case. That you then proceeded to call me snotty, smug, and
a superior dick is only serving to prove my point: you're assuming, and
mistaking those assumptions for reality.

~~~
wpietri
I agree you don't see it, but I don't think that merits your insulting
assumptions and language about me and what I know.

To see this guy as acting parasitically, all you need do is take him at his
word. He has a calculated economic value for the miles that is far larger than
what he paid for them. He himself believes that Avis values them and would see
him as a scammer, which is why he carefully limited the size of his grift and
energetically persuaded employees to do things that they realized made no
sense. I don't see anything wrong with assuming that he's right.

To double-check, though, there are plenty of reasonable estimates on what air
miles actually cost out on the web, and the guy's estimate of the economic
value is in line with those. And Avis's promotion looks like a pretty typical
customer acquisition thing where you pay some sort of initial acquisition cost
and hope to make your money back over time. They did not acquire 37 customers
here, or even 1, so the guy is entirely reasonable in thinking that Avis would
stop him if he did this at scale.

So the balance of the evidence is that 37rentals is, as he himself thinks,
scamming Avis out of a lot of miles. Is this CERN-level proof? No, but I don't
think it's necessary here. We're on a forum, discussing another forum post. My
assumptions are reasonable and are based on my many years in business. If you
have evidence for other assumptions you'd like to make, godspeed. But for a
guy wrongly in a lather about supposed no-evidence assertions, you are making
a lot of no-evidence assertions yourself. Anonymously, of course.

~~~
dlss
When I saw you'd replied here, I excitedly checked
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10218108](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10218108)
to see if you'd also given saurik a reply. Alas, no. You choose to reply here
stating you believe OP agrees with your assumptions, while ignoring more
detailed replies to your position.

For my part, I think that if OP agreed with you he wouldn't have done it. This
whole thing reminds me of a discussion I once had about doctors who perform
abortions... Some people find it very hard to understand the other side
doesn't agree that life begins at conception, and wrongly conclude abortion
doctors must believe they're committing murder.

It's always easier to brush other positions off as too verbose, or too
anonymous, or too whatever. It's much harder (but much more valuable) to
consider the problem and data at length, and come to a new truth. This is what
differentiates science from the tinkering which proceeded it.

 _> Is this CERN-level proof? No, but I don't think it's necessary here. We're
on a forum, discussing another forum post._

This is what I was talking about when I said "it matters to me that HackerNews
remain a place for intelligent discussion" above -- to me HN isn't just some
online forum; the standards we should hold ourselves to are much higher. We're
here to learn and relate. If you'd acted this way on reddit I wouldn't have
taken issue... but on HN it pains me to see this kind of behavior. The other
side of your holy war is not inherently immoral.

------
martywm
What is the value of your time to keep renting cars? I think Hacker News is a
bunch of people who are interested in making things. Creating things. Creating
value. Please share with me the value of this other than the fact that you
hacked the system the way PG likes to hear in the YC application.

~~~
OverlordXenu
It had non-monetary value, too. For one, he was essentially paid to go on a
short vacation. He also had fun creating/solving a puzzle for himself. It had
value beyond what he earned.

------
wil421
These things are interesting to read but it's also these kinds of things that
cause companies to not do promotions like this anymore.

It worked out well for him but I think the scheme to buy dollar coins from the
treasury and then use the same coins to pay back off the credit cards was
brilliant. You also didnt have to involve employees in the schemes. I'm not
sure what Avis will say to the branches he rented from.

~~~
Someone1234
> These things are interesting to read but it's also these kinds of things
> that cause companies to not do promotions like this anymore.

Or they just spend five minutes thinking about attack scenarios. For example
in this case, if they had added "one offer claim per customer per day" it
wouldn't likely have impacted any of their normal customers (or sub-1% of
them), but would have stopped stuff like this.

The dollar coin thing was always going to bite them in the butt. They were
literally selling money at a loss (it was a dollar coin, effectively sold at a
dollar not including postage). There are numerous ways to exploit that, it was
moronic.

~~~
wil421
Maybe it's me being naive thinking people won't always try and find a way to
exploit something to the max. It took a lot of time to plan and figure out the
cheapest way. In the end it is the company's duty to protect itself.

