
Reinvented in His 60s, After 26 Jobless Months - gdilla
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/29/booming/reinvented-in-his-60s-after-26-jobless-months.html
======
robomartin
I had a friend who committed suicide in his early sixties after three years of
not being able to land a decent position. He was amazingly qualified to do a
ton of things. Age discrimination was at play here.

He actually went back to school and kept a positive attitude through all of
it. He'd come over to my office and we'd have long chats. I'd get him involved
in what I was doing and did my best to keep him motivated. I even paid for a
two week Solidworks course hoping to help open new doors for him. I would give
him access to my machine shop and shoved him into the world of modern
mechanical design and manufacturing.

In the end he could not cope with no longer being "useful" and took his own
life before finishing the course. I had no idea and saw no sign of what was
going on in his mind.

I still can't believe the loss.

~~~
anigbrowl
Ouch. Sorry to hear that.

~~~
robomartin
It sucks because he was my mentor as I grew as an engineer. Everywhere I look
I find examples of what he taught me. Some of my thinking was molded by him. I
have little engineering sayings and rules of thumb I got from him. Another
friend of mine is the same. When we get together we invariably go into
examples of how last week or last month we did X and it reminded us of him. I
guess in a small way that makes him live on in our minds through what we do
professionally every day.

~~~
adrianbye
you may want to read this:
[http://www.prb.org/Articles/2006/ElderlyWhiteMenAfflictedbyH...](http://www.prb.org/Articles/2006/ElderlyWhiteMenAfflictedbyHighSuicideRates.aspx)

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nostromo
I recently went to a talk given in Seattle given by a person who was on the
2nd place team in the Netflix Prize competition. The talk was amazing, but I
also found the speaker quite interesting.

He had graduated from a top school in the 70s. Worked in chemistry throughout
the 80s, 90s and early 00s. Then he decided to go back to school and get a CS
degree since his field wasn't as promising as it once was.

He decided that the Netflix prize was a great way to test his education in
machine learning, and he jumped right in, and ended up working with a great
team.

Since ageism is a concern for a lot of people in tech, I was quite happy to
see someone thriving, even after such a late career pivot. I'm not sure we can
all be as sharp and energetic as this particular person is late in our
careers, but it did give me hope that there will still be a place for us when
we're 50+ or 60+. Not that anyone reading this isn't 100% sure they'll be
retired by 35. :p

~~~
michaelochurch
Ageism, to me, is the ultimate sign that engineers are still a conquered
people. See, age is an issue for smooth-talking sales douches, because every
career accomplishment in their world gets harshly age-graded, but shouldn't be
in ours. Ours should be about substance, not image. If I need to evaluate a
cool new technology, do I give a rat's ass if the author was 17 or 73? Of
course not. I just care about how the thing works.

~~~
nugget
A few years back I interviewed a mixed race post-operative transsexual for a
developer position in our startup. At that point in my life, I had not been
exposed to much diversity at all.

The candidate had been referred by a friend of mine who offered the personal
bio ahead of time, probably to filter out any polite but intolerant employers.
Before the interview started I forcefully reminded myself to keep an open mind
and conduct the interview as I would any other.

Half way through the interview it sort of suddenly dawned on me that I really
didn't care, at all, about this person's personal orientation, preferences or
lifestyle; as long as they could code, I would be happy to have them on board
(as a co-worker and friend, as co-workers tend to become in such close
quarters). And I felt intuitively confident that my co-founder would feel the
same way. A lot of folks probably repeat this sentiment every day, but I
wonder in how many industries they really, truly mean it. I think tech is a
very special industry in terms of its ability to focus on substance, as you
say, over form or perception.

~~~
nemesisj
This is why we're always adamant that our first interview is a phone screen
focused on a few coding problems and discussion about them. Yes, you can still
tell some basic things like gender, accent, and so forth, but removing as much
of the "first impression" BS that we can is important to us. We save the
"culture fit" of the interview process to a later stage, while trying to
provide as much transparency about our culture to our candidate as possible.
We've ended up hiring some of our best employees that might have not done as
well on an in-person interview this way. Yeah, these things shouldn't matter
but they tend to. Well done for ignoring the unimportant and focusing on
substance!

------
fecak
The biggest issue here in my eyes is 600 submitted resumes and only 3
interviews (2 by phone). Those numbers are astounding, and I'd have to guess
that someone with his qualifications must have had some issues to compound any
perceived issues with ageism.

Ageism is real, but I don't think we can attribute ageism and the down economy
to a .5% response rate to a resume for a well-qualified individual. More
likely some other reasons (I wrote about this issue last year here
[http://jobtipsforgeeks.com/2012/08/06/why-you-didnt-get-
the-...](http://jobtipsforgeeks.com/2012/08/06/why-you-didnt-get-the-
interview/)) contributed to the issue.

I'd be curious to see those 600 applications - the jobs, the resume, and
whatever other material he sent. I find it hard to believe that his
applications themselves wouldn't account for much of the lack of response.

~~~
saalweachter
I'm also curious what his social network looks like.

Besides all of the other -isms in play, nepotism is really a huge part of
getting your foot in the door in most places in this world. And I'm not even
talking about "cushy job for the wastrel nephew" nepotism. While I'd like to
think that I've gotten every job I've had because I was a competent, useful
person, in almost every case I started the interview through someone I knew
who worked there. The same goes for most people I know.

Even if you don't get the job based on who you know, just getting the
_interview_ based on who you know is a huge, fat advantage, straight-up
nepotism. And the great thing about nepotism is that you tend to know people
who are like you in one or more ways: same race, same gender, same socio-
economic-background, same political views, or in this case, same age. It's all
the other -isms wrapped up into one.

~~~
fecak
The more accurate word here is cronyism, indicating a contact and not
necessarily a family member, but your point is valid.

~~~
ghaff
Or simply networking--if we can get away from the isms. And, yes, for better
or worse, knowing people matters. Every job I've had after my first ones out
out of degree programs--I did something of a career shift through a grad
degree early on--have been the direct result of calling someone I knew.

------
incision
I recently did some work with a engineer who is 60+ and spends more time
studying and keeping himself current than anyone I know.

It was eye-opening to me. Many if not most people I've met at that age
willingly admit to having given up on learning new things years if not decades
ago.

I was really inspired by this guy and hope to follow a similar path.

~~~
milhous
That's great. In his last lecture, Dr. Bose said that the average timespan of
an engineer doing actual engineering was about 7 years because they get
promoted and become managers. I hope to avoid this at all costs and keep
practicing my craft until I die.

~~~
incision
I'm with you, but there are a couple of downsides I've observed with staying
out of management:

* It can make moving between jobs harder. Career managers are scared to death of people who are more technical than they are and entirely capable of doing their jobs. Nothing can convince them that we don't actually want their jobs. They will see fit to undermine you at every turn.

* Moving permanently into management in ~10 years seems to be such a common career path that it raises questions when someone hasn't done it. "What's wrong with him/her?"

* Many if not most organizations are stuck in a mindset managers must be paid above those they manage. In some places it's hard and fast rule.

On a related note, one of the worst situations I've ever had to deal with was
working for a guy who had stopped being anything remotely technical at least
half a decade earlier, but refused to acknowledge it. It made for a fullblown
career manager who steadfastly believed that he was still the best and
brightest engineer in any room.

------
Zelphyr
Am I the only one getting tired of articles behind the NY Times paywall
getting submitted to HN?

~~~
hudibras
I agree, and I for one would gladly pay $15/month for a way to get around the
paywall automatically without having to use incognito mode.

------
peterjancelis
Shouldn't you be financially independent after a lifetime of working at above
average professional wages?

~~~
JanezStupar
Expensive habits are easy to acquire and hard to get rid of.

~~~
jroseattle
Ever been personally sued? Had medical bills beyond health insurance? Had a
401k or maybe a conservative investment go bankrupt?

There are many ways that one can be subjected to harsh financial realities.

------
egl2001
At age 58, his life expectancy is around 20 years, and he could live 10 years
or more beyond that, probably with rising care costs throughout. Once he
leaves the workforce, voluntarily or involuntarily, he will be completely
dependent on savings, retirement plans, and Social Security to support himself
and any dependents. Staying in the workforce delays drawing down his savings,
reducing the risk of running out of money at the far end---when he can't do a
d-d thing about it. So, yeah, it makes sense that he wants to keep working,
independent of whether he "should" be able to stretch his money.

~~~
pigscantfly
I don't understand why so many are criticizing this guy; if he doesn't want to
retire _right now_ like it seems, why shouldn't he work for another few years
until he's ready? Obviously increasing his savings in the meantime will do him
well when he does decide to leave the workforce.

------
jacalata
Am I missing the reinvention in this story? Man works for years in the loans
business and as a lecturer in business courses to Americans in Maryland. Gets
laid off, takes a couple of years but eventually finds a job first in the
loans business and then as a lecturer in business courses, but _gasp_ to
Americans living _in Germany_!

~~~
epoxyhockey
It looks like he went from the VP of a student loan company to a _lowly_
financial adviser at Merrill Lynch. He now teaches business courses in
Germany, which he considers as his dream job.

I guess reinvention to you and I are vastly different than to the writer of
this article. I, like you, don't see any retraining or new skills being
developed to gain the new job. He just used another subset of resume (Phd) to
get another job.

If anything, this article is showing how boomers, once making comfy 6-figure
salaries, are now getting bumped down on the payscale (sub-6-figures) as time
goes on.

------
seanmcdirmid
Ageism is not just a problem in engineering, but in almost all technical
fields. The problem is, that 20-something kid, you don't judge them by what
they can do, you judge them by their growth potential. There is then a natural
bias that "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" and so we judge older
candidates (say "senior") by what they can do, assuming that they are at or
have hit their peak. This all flies out the window in management or executive
positions, where leadership and bullsh*ting are more sought after.

Even though it isn't fair at all, it makes sense when you think about it. Its
something to keep in mind when we are young, to climb the ladder as fast as
possible so that we are "immune" later. It is much harder for those of us that
don't like management and prefer to be engineers for our careers.

------
bobdvb
What is worth mentioning is that in Europe you don't need a six figure salary
to be well-off. In the US you have all sorts of expenses that just don't
correlate in most European countries. The main ones being healthcare &
education: I had a month of tests resulting in keyhole surgery and this wasn't
done on the national health service it was private, the bill was a fraction of
what it would have been in the US. The term "Social Security" means different
things in different countries.

Now he is in Germany I suspect he will be well looked after and if he chooses
to retire there, instead of returning to the US, he will be well looked after.
Don't be too surprised at him being happy with a five figure salary instead of
his old six figures, money isn't everything.

------
mynameishere
I wonder why the nytimes would focus on a story like this--the guy should have
had _at least_ a quarter million saved up not including retirement funds, and
with his severance, he could just coast into retirement.

Sure, some people hate to not work, but that still wouldn't make him a tragic
figure.

~~~
michaelochurch
Let's assume he had (to use your number) $250,000 in net worth.

How, pray tell, is he going to retire on $438,000? On top of inflation, you're
doing quite well if your portfolio gets 4 to 5%. That means one can safely
draw about $20,000 annually from that.

The sad truth of a contracting economy is that most people can afford to
retire by the age at which society seems to expect it.

~~~
peterjancelis
1) $250K is only 1,33 times his last gross salary of $188K so that would make
him a dramatic undersaver at this age.

2) Assuming he owned his apartment you can go Mr. Money Mustache on $20K
dividends a year. If he owned a house he could downgrade as well.

3) There are people sailing around the world on a budget of $2000 per month.
Just dividends from his severance and renting out his house (assuming he owned
only that) would get him there.

I can totally understand the shock of seeing reality turn out drastically
different than his expectations but once you get near the ~500K net worth
figure, it becomes possible to cover necessities indefinitely.

~~~
stevewilhelm
"There are people sailing around the world on a budget of $2000 per month"

Those people probably don't have reasonable health insurance.

~~~
peterjancelis
Private health insurance with global ex-US coverage is quite affordable.

$2000 per month puts you well into the upper class in the majority of
countries. Those people have good health care, why shouldn't an American who
goes to those same places.

------
jjindev
What I saw, over a few decades in programming is that: Right off you start off
with a split between people who love it, and people for whom it is a job. The
jobs people seldom transition to loving it. On the other hand, each few years,
a few loving-it people peel off to stable niches and quiet work. It's
attrition. And so while I decry ageism (and that kids might think me less good
than I am) ... prejudices can be somewhat odds based. Few people really keep
on loving it and trying machine learning late in life. Perhaps each paradigm
shift (I can use that, darn it!) leaves a few behind.

------
etler
While the gap has increased during the recession, the proportion has stayed
about the same. Since there would be proportionately fewer jobs, it makes
sense that the gap wouldn't stay fixed. While I'm sure ageism is at play, you
also have to consider that older people who have specialized are going to be
looking at a smaller job pool. Even if they haven't specialized they still
can't do hard labor jobs that younger people could do. Also they might have
more savings, allowing them to look for more specific jobs that they actually
want to do, rather than any job.

------
beachstartup
we just hired a guy in his mid 40s to do sysadmin work. apparently he had been
out of work for over a year.

turns out he worked with someone we know 3 jobs ago, completely randomly
(didn't find out until the interview). we snapped him up right quick as his
salary requirements were relaxed because of his work hiatus. even 10k/year
makes a huge difference when you're a small firm. that's $1-2k/month when you
factor in payroll tax and healthcare.

would we have hired him if he didn't know that guy? i would be lying if i said
i knew for sure. but we have other > 35 year olds on the team, so there's a
good chance. but it certainly helped.

either way, great hire so far. certainly increases the chance of us hiring
more > 40 folks in the future (all the founders are < 30)

lesson to me is always be on good terms with the poeple you work with, you
never know when an old colleague will put in a good word for you in the
future, and under what circumstances.

------
smallegan
How ironic that a VP at a student loan company ends up getting in over his
with a student loan.

------
known
"The only way to succeed is to make people hate you." \--Josef von Sternberg

------
greenlander
I worked at a major semiconductor company in Silicon Valley for many years. I
interviewed thousands of candidates, many of who were older than me.

I noticed that older engineers seemed to bifurcate into two groups: the ones
who were curious about everything, and the ones who stayed in their box.

The ones who were curious about everything remained great engineers. They
tinkered with new technologies, read books about software project management,
wrote cool little programs in unusual languages like Haskell or Scheme, etc.
These guys were invariably great engineers, and their experience was just
icing on the cake.

The ones who stayed in their niche of writing x86 assembly, COBOL applications
for mainframes or writing the same class of network drivers for Linux for
fifteen years were usually awful.

I don't doubt that there is actual ageism out there. However, when I did
interviews I never cared. However, I also noticed that the "lazy engineers"
hadn't really done anything in their career to expand their skill set beyond
the minimum their employers required them to do, and I could see why they were
not employable. The older "curious, passionate" engineers I hired worked out
awesome.

