
Netflix Announces Its New ‘Unlimited’ Maternity and Paternity Leave Program - domdip
http://techcrunch.com/2015/08/04/netflix-announces-its-new-unlimited-maternity-and-paternity-leave-program/
======
ghughes
I'm highly suspicious of "unlimited" vacation or leave policies because the
line between reasonable and not is still there, it's just way less visible and
ultimately arbitrary, depending on your management chain and workload. I can't
wait for this fad to die. Let's just have generous, well-defined leave
policies that don't put the onus on the employee to figure out what is OK and
what isn't.

"Experience shows people perform better at work when they’re not worrying
about home." People also perform better at work when they're not worrying
about repercussions for being seen to abuse their "unlimited" leave.

~~~
rezistik
I think unlimited with a minimum is really the solution.

Without a minimum people are reluctant to take time off from what I've seen
and read.

~~~
michaelchisari
I've seen places that have that minimum be mandatory. As in, if you haven't
taken a vacation by a certain time, they will insist, even go so far as
restricting access until the vacation is over.

The great thing about a mandatory minimum (never thought I'd be saying those
words), is that it doesn't allow someone to over work themselves into a
frenzy, making everyone else look lazy, while simultaneously burning
themselves out.

~~~
jsprogrammer
It's also a somewhat hilarious contrast to those companies who _take away_
your vacation time if you don't use it within a certain time period (often
just 1 year).

~~~
chestnut-tree
_" It's also a somewhat hilarious contrast to those companies who take away
your vacation time if you don't use it within a certain time period"_

This is pretty standard in the UK. If you're a permanent employee, your annual
leave allowance (e.g. 4-6 weeks of holiday) covers a period of one year. If
you don't take that leave during the year, you lose it (you're unlikely to get
paid for the untaken leave).

Some companies may allow you to carry over _some_ of that leave to the next
year (e.g. a week) or may allow you to "sell" or "buy" some extra leave.
However, this normally needs to be done at the start of the annual leave year
so requires some pre-planning on the employees part.

------
caoilte
Unlimited leave policies encourage employees to self-police and conform to
peer pressure. At a place like Netflix I can imagine the result being that
people end up taking less than the industry average.

A better gimmick would be if Netflix picked one of the Nordics and announced
that they were going to adopt all of the social policies provided by that
country's government.

~~~
danudey
> I can imagine the result being that people end up taking less than the
> industry average

The industry average in the US is abysmal though. Yahoo 'doubled' theirs to 16
weeks, which is 1/3 of Canada's (and many other countries') legally mandated
minimum. Taking _double_ the industry average would still be abysmal by global
standards.

~~~
baudehlo
It's a shame that canada has a better mat/pat leave standard but such a
terrible (same as the U.S.) vacation standard.

------
mattbee
"We want employees to have the flexibility and confidence to balance the needs
of their growing families without worrying about work or finances ... Each
employee ... works with their managers for coverage during their absences."

So, the conversation could be just "Hey manager as per the new policy, I would
like to be a full-time mum / dad for the next 12 months; will you arrange
cover for me?" Is that right, no questions asked?

If Netflix's "unlimited vacation" policy actually meant that, they surely
wouldn't need to publish a _second_ "unlimited" parental leave policy as well?

~~~
CrankyFool
I'm a hiring manager at Netflix. If one of my employees told me "I'm going to
take the year off, see you in a year," I'd basically go "OK, have a great time
with your kids. Send us a picture every once in a while."

And then I'd backfill them. And when they got back, I'd have an extra
engineer. Chances are by that point I'll be looking to expand the team anyway.

~~~
mikeash
How about if it was, "I just had a kid, so I'm going to stay home to raise
them, and I'll be back in 18 years, assuming they get into college"?

~~~
plonh
TFA says the policy is 1 year paid leave, with an option to work (toward
promotion/bonus, i assume). not unlimited. Calling it unlimited is just
nonsense.

~~~
mikeash
Heh, you're right. I sort of glossed over that.

"With this in mind, today we’re introducing an unlimited leave policy for new
moms and dads that allows them to take off as much time as they want during
the first year after a child’s birth or adoption."

What kind of idiot writes this nonsense?

------
omarforgotpwd
"With this in mind, today we’re introducing an unlimited leave policy for new
moms and dads that allows them to take off as much time as they want during
the first year after a child’s birth or adoption"

Ah, unlimited for a year. So no taking 30 years off after your child is born
then.

~~~
ars
> So no taking 30 years off after your child is born then.

That's simple - just keep having children. Time it right and you can take off
permanently for decades.

~~~
Cadsby
And yet virtually no ones does this.

~~~
eitally
After the first one or two most people start to fully understands the
downsides of such a proposition.

------
Osmium
Congratulations Netflix. I'm personally a big believer that equal maternity
and paternity leave is crucial for future equality in the workforce, and
Netflix have just set a great example to the rest of the industry. And a full
year is excellent too. Hopefully other employers will take notice, or even
better it becomes a legal requirement. Why it isn't already in some
countries[1] continues to mystify–to my mind, a business should not be
considered successful unless it can afford to, and does, treat its employees
like human beings.

[1] I say "some countries" but really it's only the United States and Papua
New Guinea that haven't made it a legal requirement to have some form of paid
maternity leave, among countries where data is available (e.g. North Korea
isn't listed). Oman used to be in that list, but they left in 2011.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_leave](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_leave)
and
[http://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/\---dgreports/\---dcom...](http://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/---dgreports/---dcomm/---publ/documents/publication/wcms_242615.pdf)

~~~
icebraining
Saying "the US" is usually not helpful here, since many of these issues are
simply not legislated at the national/federal level. Some states do have paid
leave:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maternity_leave_in_the_United_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maternity_leave_in_the_United_States#/media/File:Paid_maternity_leave_by_state.jpg)

~~~
rosser
GP is talking about _parity_ between maternity and paternity leave. Citing
statistics about the existence (or, as is demonstrably more common, _non_
-existence) of maternity leave is pretty orthogonal to that.

Unless you're claiming that the fact that most states don't offer _any_ paid
maternity leave (and almost certainly no paid paternity leave, either) counts
as the kind of parity the GP was arguing for, I guess.

~~~
icebraining
_GP is talking about parity between maternity and paternity leave._

Not when talking about the US, otherwise it wouldn't just be two countries,
since many -if not most- countries in the world don't have any paternity leave
at all (even in Western Europe - see Switzerland).

------
relix42
I've seen quite a few reactions to the Netflix unlimited PTO policy that are
similar to the reactions to the new Maternity and Paternity policy. Many of
these opinions are the likes of:

* "I'm suspicious of this."

* "No one takes any vacation at Netflix because of this."

* "Unlimited == None"

* "Peer pressure means that everyone works 52 weeks a year."

* "Without a PTO policy you can't cash out unused vacation. This is a rip off."

The thing I haven't seen in these statements are "I work at Netflix and this
is what it is really like"...

Here we go - I work at Netflix (as an engineer) and this is what is _really_
like:

* I'm pressured to _take_ vacations.

* Managers are taught that they are examples to the teams therefore they must take regular vacations.

* I take more vacation now than I did when I had 2/3/4/5 weeks a year of stated, paid, vacation.

Questions I've answered about this: * Does my team fall apart when someone
leaves for 4 weeks? No. They're adults and they know how to prepare to be away
for a while.

* People must raise their eyebrows at you when you leave! No.

* You get called all the time right so you keep your laptop with you on vacation? No. They're adults and they know how to get along without me for a while.

* You must do tons of extra work when people go on vacation! No. People don't just drop stuff and run. They prepare, get stuff ready, postpone things until they're back, etc.

* Managers must "encourage" you not to take vacations. Nope, opposite.

* You feel irresponsible taking time off then. No I don't.

* People must leave for months a time right? The policy gets really abused! No, stop it. Assuming the extreme case must be the common case is silly. You're smarter than that.

* This can't possibly be true. You're a liar/shill/idiot! Next.

* This doesn't/can't work at my company. Therefore, it can't work at yours! Netflix corporate culture is likely very different than your company. Take a look at the culture deck presentation.

This type of policy likely can't work everywhere.

It may not work everywhere in the valley.

It _does_ work here.

[edit] formatting fail

~~~
mikeash
Honest question: why _don 't_ people just leave for months at a time? Is it
because everyone understands that "unlimited" is actually "one month a year,
more or less" or whatever the actual amount is?

~~~
relix42
I can speak for me and others I know rather well - I like what I do. I enjoy
going to work, finding things to fix, and fixing them. There are those things
that I don't enjoy doing, but, they're not the majority by a long shot. So,
six months away wouldn't be that attractive.

Along with the that, one of the tenets of the business is "Freedom and
Responsibility". If you can be responsible taking six months off then you are
free to do so. I know people that take 4 weeks off at a time without issue.
They plan their projects and commitments, communicate to their team, and make
sure they're ready to be out for 4 weeks. Then, they leave for 4 week.

~~~
mikeash
Maybe that's the difference. No matter how cool the company is (unless it's,
say, SpaceX) I have a hard time imagining that the work would be more
interesting than whatever I could come up with to do on my own. Which is
probably a big part of why I don't work for a big company.

------
cldellow
Doesn't Netflix already offer unlimited vacation? Parental leave isn't
vacation, of course, but the cynic in me thinks this is another example of a
case where a corporation can benevolently offer the moon while replying on
peer pressure to ensure that no employee accepts what is on offer to anywhere
near its fullest extent.

Does Netflix publish any stats about vacation usage?

~~~
giaour
Isn't part of their unlimited vacation perk a promise not to track how much
vacation you use?

~~~
CrankyFool
It's not explicit, but as I noted above that generally ends up being the case.
Most other managers here with whom I've talked consider tracking vacation
usage ... suspect and worrisome. It feels icky, so we don't do it.

------
dglass
I don't get all the backlash in these comments around the "unlimited"
policies. Do any of the people opposing the unlimited policies have them in
place at their own company?

I've had unlimited vacation at my last two companies. I've seen it abused as
my previous employer but it's worked out great at my current job. I'm not
"peer pressured" by my other coworkers like everyone here seems to think I
would be. As long as I get my work done on time my manager let's me take a day
off here and there for a long weekend. I tend to take friday's every once in a
while for a weekend vacation. I'm leaving for 2.5 weeks pretty soon for an
international vacation.

It's just easier on everyone. HR doesn't have to track how many days people
are taking off and my manager and I don't spend time coordinating time off
either. I simply put it in my calendar with enough notice and everyone is
happy.

Why does everyone seem to think unlimited vacation forces people to "conform
to peer pressure" and to work harder than they normally would?

~~~
resu_nimda
_I 'm not "peer pressured" by my other coworkers like everyone here seems to
think I would be. As long as I get my work done on time my manager let's me
take a day off here and there for a long weekend._

The peer pressure is usually not explicit, it's implied by the ambiguity of
the policy and the (unknown to you) true expectations from management. How do
you know that your vacation time isn't secretly being counted against you?
What if other people aren't comfortable taking it because they want a good
performance review? This was definitely happening at the mid-size enterprise
shop I used to work at where they couldn't wait to jump on the Unlimited PTO
fad because they knew people would end up taking less. It's definitely anti-
employee unless the company aggressively demonstrates that it's ok to take as
much PTO as you like. With a more definite PTO policy, you don't have this
issue as much.

Plus, it's just dumb and kind of insulting. It's not "unlimited," everyone
knows that. Just set a reasonable policy so people don't have to guess.

------
hughes
I'm glad to see paternity leave included and given equal weight to maternity.
So many employers don't offer this important benefit.

~~~
dragonwriter
> I'm glad to see paternity leave included and given equal weight to
> maternity. So many employers don't offer this important benefit.

Really? What employer doesn't offer family leave on equal terms? Certainly,
this _used_ to be quite common, but every place I've seen for many years has
explicitly been equal.

~~~
rmordoff
The link references an article about yahoo that states yahoo and google give
more time off for maternity leave (the article is from 2013 so it may have
changed since then).

"Yahoo will give mothers after the birth of a child from 8 weeks to 16 weeks.
Fathers of newborns will get 8 weeks paid leave. Google gives mothers five
months off and fathers seven weeks off."
[http://www.businessinsider.com/marissa-mayer-doubles-the-
len...](http://www.businessinsider.com/marissa-mayer-doubles-the-length-of-
yahoos-paid-maternity-leave-gives-new-dads-eight-weeks-off-2013-4)

~~~
raldi
Google gives non-birth-mother parents 12 weeks of paid parental leave if
they're the primary or equal caregiver during that time.

For example, if you work at Google and both you and your wife work full time,
and then she has a baby (or you adopt) and you'd like to both stay home to be
equal caregivers, you get 12 weeks of paid leave with basically no questions
asked.

------
mullen
This is dumb. As others have pointed out, all it does is use peer pressure to
decide what the "proper amount" of Paternity Leave is. Netflix is probably
such a pressure cooker that when people need to and want to take Paternity
Leave, they won't take it for fear of upsetting the group and losing their
jobs. Managers will abuse it just to keep productivity up.

Want to be a progressive company? Clearly define how long Paternity Leave is,
make it generous, tell employees to take it and order managers not to harass
employees that do. Don't do nebulous HR policies that just end up confusing
people. Make it so that people can take a couple of 2 week vacations a year
without worrying about their jobs, that would help too.

~~~
dglass
"Netflix is probably..."

All you're doing is speculating. If people don't like these policies then they
have the power to leave.

~~~
plonh
That is a contentless rebuttal. Obviously people choose among their options.
That doesn't mean the options are optimal or efficient.

------
eevilspock
This is a laudable policy and I truly respect Netflix for doing it. But the
sad truth is that the people who need this most are those on minimum wage or
less, or those treated as "contract workers" so their employer can keep an
even bigger cut of profits (e.g. Uber).

In other words the Mathew Effect in our economy and society is further
reinforced. The Mathew Effect is "the other invisible hand", except that it is
insidious rather than virtuous. And unlike Adam Smith's invisible hand, it is
most often ignored or trivialized, if not outright denied, by pure free-market
adherents.

------
SweetPotato
This is a step in right direction.

"The United States remains the only member of the Organisation for Economic
Co-operation and Development, or OECD, that does not guarantee mothers any
paid time off from work after the birth of a new child. (see Figure 1) In
fact, the United States is one of only four countries in the world—along with
Liberia, Sierra Leone, and Papua New Guinea—where workers do not have the
right to paid maternity leave." [http://cdn.americanprogress.org/wp-
content/uploads/2013/03/I...](http://cdn.americanprogress.org/wp-
content/uploads/2013/03/IWD_PaidLeave_fig1.png)

------
aianus
I don't see why it's your employer's job to subsidize the birth of your
children with paid maternity/paternity leave.

Why not just pay everyone more and those who want children can use the extra
to save up to take a year off work?

~~~
eevilspock
For the same reason it makes sense for everyone to collectively to pay for
public schools, including those who do not have kids.

In places where population growth is not a concern, such as in the U.S. where
birth and deaths are at equilibrium, those who have and raise children and do
it at least reasonably well are producing _positive externalities_ [1]. And
the better the children are raised and educated, the more the positive[2].
Policies like Netflix's thus benefit society as a whole.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality#Positive](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality#Positive)

[2] The flip side is that when children are raised poorly, be it the fault of
the parent or the society that sets the parent up for failure, it turns
negative.

~~~
aianus
A country like the US would be better served by immigration than having its
own children. You could choose only the best of the best in the world to grow
your population instead of throwing the genetic dice.

But that's beside the point; we don't have Netflix pay for public schools, the
state does that. Similarly Netflix paying for maternity/paternity leave seems
silly to me.

------
lowglow
This is what I think of Unlimited vacation or otherwise: There should first be
a mandatory vacation time, then an unlimited option beyond this mandatory
time. Plain and simple.

~~~
CrankyFool
I would find a mandatory vacation to be intrusively big-brotherish and --
while I can't guarantee I wouldn't work at a place that required it -- it'd be
an overall negative in my retention. I'm a fully-formed adult. How about
letting me manage my time off?

------
tomp
> With this in mind, today we’re introducing an unlimited leave policy for new
> moms and dads that allows them to _take off as much time as they want during
> the first year_ after a child’s birth or adoption.

(emphasis mine)

"Unlimited", as in "unlimited data until 1GB". Fascinating. What Netflix calls
"unlimited" just means "normal" in a lot of Europe.

------
ejcx
That seems great. Is there any protection from abuse? It seems that one could
say "See you next year" with this and get a year-long vacation.

Is that accurate. Would that actually work? Is there any contract saying you
won't take your year off and quit on your last day? OR is this all hinging on
you getting a continued workload complete, and not just a year vacation.

~~~
ryoshu
Having a newborn is not a year long vacation. While it's possible that some
employees could abuse a year of maternity/paternity leave by quitting after
the one year term, I imagine this move will greatly increase company loyalty
amongst new, potential and existing parents.

~~~
Yakimoto
Having a newborn isn't a task put against you. You elected for it. Don't
perpetuate the idea that some credit is owed to parents as if it's not a year
long vacation.

~~~
ryoshu
Nowhere did I say it was a task put against you or that something is owed to
parents. This is a perk being offered by the company, just like free lunches
or monthly team outings.

It's a very attractive perk for couples looking to have a family and will like
engender loyalty within that cohort.

------
SweetPotato
just to reinforce the point: "United States is one of only four countries in
the world—along with Liberia, Sierra Leone, and Papua New Guinea—where workers
do not have the right to paid maternity leave." How is this possible great
USA?

------
exacube
In contrast, I hear Amazon has no paternity leave (or maybe its like 2 days or
something?)

------
swuecho
when will there be a 'unlimited' salary?

------
quietplatypus
The way this is going to pan out, is that the House Slaves and Tools who love
to crab bucket and compete with others will not take any maternity/paternity
leave, and politically push out those who would take a reasonable amount of
leave.

To be fair, of course the others would still be paid during this, but they
will have to move to another company and take a hit in reputation.

So in the end, this is either great news for people with crab bucket
mentalities, or for everyone else, a great way to get a year-long severance
while finding a better place to work.

