
Marie Kondo's Advice Praised by Scientists: “Clutter Is Not a Good Thing” - anarbadalov
https://www.inverse.com/article/52319-marie-kondo-tidying-up-clutter
======
klenwell
I always liked Anthony Bourdain's take on "Meez" from Kitchen Confidential:

 _Mise-en-place is the religion of all good line cooks. Do not fuck with a
line cook’s ‘meez’ — meaning his setup, his carefully arranged supplies of sea
salt, rough-cracked pepper, softened butter, cooking oil, wine, backups, and
so on. As a cook, your station, and its condition, its state of readiness, is
an extension of your nervous system... The universe is in order when your
station is set up the way you like it: you know where to find everything with
your eyes closed, everything you need during the course of the shift is at the
ready at arm’s reach, your defenses are deployed. If you let your mise-en-
place run down, get dirty and disorganized, you’ll quickly find yourself
spinning in place and calling for backup. I worked with a chef who used to
step behind the line to a dirty cook’s station in the middle of a rush to
explain why the offending cook was falling behind. He’d press his palm down on
the cutting board, which was littered with peppercorns, spattered sauce, bits
of parsley, bread crumbs and the usual flotsam and jetsam that accumulates
quickly on a station if not constantly wiped away with a moist side towel.
“You see this?” he’d inquire, raising his palm so that the cook could see the
bits of dirt and scraps sticking to his chef’s palm. “That’s what the inside
of your head looks like now.”_

I imagine most developers will recognize the obvious parallels with our craft.

The full passage:

[https://books.google.com/books?id=XAsRYpsX9dEC&lpg=PA65&ots=...](https://books.google.com/books?id=XAsRYpsX9dEC&lpg=PA65&ots=dOy2B3EFxH&pg=PA65#v=onepage&q&f=false)

~~~
johnchristopher
Totally OT but: Of course I can see this chef's point but why does it look
like they are psychopaths on loose in the kitchen ? When I talk with chefs or
people running cuisine they are very aggressive and ready to burst out at any
thing with a confrontational and "I am always right" attitude.

~~~
nimonian
I worked as a chef for 8 years. I might have some ideas about this.

In the below, I will use the pronoun 'he' purely for convenience and may swear
a bit.

When you're in a brigade, you're called 'a chef', but there's only one chef
called 'the chef' and you are cooking his food. If he had 30 arms he'd do it
himself, but he doesn't, so he employs 14 wastrels to make up the deficit.
Make no mistake: you are an extension of the chef's body, your hands are his
hands, your garnishes are his garnishes, and your mistakes are his mistakes.
(Indeed, in the trade, you don't say 'I'm going to work at Noma' , you say
'I'm going to cook for Redzepi').

The chef probably sacrificed the best years of his life toiling on his feet
for 70 hours a week, saving, learning, forming opinions and dreaming of the
day he can cook his own food. Most people cave in, change careers or hit 50
and can't keep up any more. Chef is balancing years of agony and reverie on
the improbable fulcrum of his restaurant, which he genuinely believes could
come toppling down if his peppers aren't julienned properly. Except he doesn't
julienne them. You do.

'What the fuck is this?' 'Peppers, chef.' 'Don't fuck with me. I wrote the
menu. Read it. READ IT!' 'Raw scallop and peppers julienne.' 'Well, these are
diced, we're behind on checks already, there's no peppers left and now the
most important critic in the country is going to think I don't know what a
fucking julienne looks like. Get in the prep kitchen and get Robbie on the
pass. Fuck sake.' 'Yes, chef.'

What's the first thing that commis is going to do when he gets home, exhausted
and aching? Crack open his Larousse and learn his damn cuts.

Chef made it through one of the most brutal industries in the world and is
wagering his life savings on the bullshit odds of running a kitchen not for
fame, not for money, but for the all-consuming joy of seeing his food, on his
plates, being served to his customers. It is pure, beautiful, passionate
narcissism. And fuck me if he won't let it all slide way because your sorry
ass never learned how to properly julienne a fucking pepper.

Add that to the sincere hell of standing tooth by jowl with your sweaty, tired
comrades in immense heat and pressure serving your last grilled octopus at
11:15pm, adrenaline dumping as you put your section back together to get ready
for the breakfast shift in 7 hours and, yes, things get a little tense.

Not all kitchens are like this, but it is the default setting in those
environments and preventing it takes conscious effort.

~~~
johnchristopher
Thanks for your answer ! Nice writing.

Do you think it also applies to smaller brigade ? (as in 1 chef and 1 commis)
? I have seen and heard some commis displaying that behavior when talking with
new apprentices in a school context. It seemed to come with the job even when
they hadn't "skin in the game" (yet?).

~~~
nimonian
The alloy of anger and passion has become a bit of a trope in cuisine so I
think some people just ham it up. There's also a trickle down effect (if an
assistant does something wrong and passes it to a commis chef who doesn't
notice who passes it to his chef-de-partie who doesn't notice who plates it
for chef who notices, the cdp gets chewed out, who gives it raw to the commis,
who kicks the assistant's ass).

I did work in a 1-1 environment for a little while with a chef who went into
retirement and came back out to do a lovely little diner with food way better
than it needed to be. It was probably the best cooking experience of my short
career and nary a heated word was exchanged. The chef was a good guy, but it
definitely helped that it was just two of us.

I don't think it's healthy, but I can see how rage can occur in the mania of a
busy kitchen that takes itself seriously. In a school, however, I can't see
how that helps. Maybe the commis thought that accepting harsh criticism was
part of the lesson; maybe he's just parroting the way his superiors treated
him; maybe he's just a douche.

------
emtel
Going through Marie Kondo's process was amazing for me. I've tried so many
times to get organized, and her book seemed to address the exact reasons why
each of my previous attempts has failed. And it really, really, worked.

I would encourage anyone trying it to actually give the stupid sounding stuff
in it a try. For instance, I found with items I was having a hard time letting
go of, verbally thanking them for their service and saying goodbye, as she
suggests, actually worked. Somehow it seems to satisfy whatever part of your
brain is reticent to part with a particular thing.

~~~
cellularmitosis
I find that taking a picture of something also makes it much easier to let go
of.

~~~
derefr
Or—if your momento _is_ a physical picture (e.g. an old photo album, or a
scrapbook, or childhood drawings left on the fridge for years)—try digitizing
it.

~~~
Sgt_Apone
That's a really great idea for kids drawings. I'll always keep a select few
special ones, but any parent knows you'll end up with an art gallery if you
keep everything. Making a digital art gallery of that stuff is a really good
approach to letting go.

~~~
PascLeRasc
I wouldn't go that far. No digital gallery will keep the physicality of your
kids' art and you'll really cherish that part when they're older, and throwing
away what your kid makes is really going to squash any interest in making more
of it.

------
rsync
“People ask me about the positive side of clutter and I say, ‘There isn’t any
positive side.’”

This is incorrect, of course.

I dislike clutter and I personally maintain a relatively clutter-free
existence but of course there is a trade-off to be made between short term
expediency and lack of clutter.

Understanding this trade-off has been helpful to me - especially in designing
and acquiring living spaces.

Here is an example:

My current office space requires two rooms. However, I went out of my way to
find a suite with _three_ rooms - the third of which was not, and continues to
not, be necessary. What this "buffer space" allows me to do is stage, or
cache, incoming items and/or projects while allowing me to make full (clutter-
free) use of the necessary two rooms without interruption.

Running my office without a third room would be like running a CPU without a
cache - it is perfectly workable and there's no reason it can't be done - but
it requires immediate, real-time interruption of work to maintain the empty
(clutter-free) pipeline (really stretching the CPU analogy here, but you get
the idea).

~~~
derefr
If an item has a reason to be sitting there; and then you actually _do_ engage
with it the way you were planning to; and then when the reason goes away, the
item goes away; then it's not clutter. It's just prep.

"Clutter" is the result of a broken mental model of physical "cache eviction":
it's stuff that you have _in the way_ of projects you're doing _now_ , even
though the stuff that's in the way is for a project you're planning for
_later_ (and might never even get to.) It's stuff whose presence _slows down_
your life, rather than speeding it up, when measured over the long term.

~~~
PurpleRamen
Reason can come and go. That's the problematic part with clutter. Something
may have lost it's purpose for now, but someday in the future a new purpose
can appear and then it's not clutter anymore. Instead of comparing that 3rd
room with a cache, I would call it an archive, a bank for items or just your
"uselater"-room, where you collect items similar to how people collect
bookmarks which they plan to readlater.

The relevant part is that clutter should not stand in your way, hinder you in
your progress. Thus it must stored away and trimmed down from time to time if
space is raching it's capacity. But besides that? If you have the space, who
cares. As long as it's out of the way it's not a hindrace.

------
tbirrell
Throwing stuff out is hard to do if you are poor or were raised poor.
Everything you save now does not have to be bought later. There is a potential
use for anything and everything, so you might as well keep it. Granted, at a
certain point the cost of the storage facility exceeds the amount saved, but
the mindset is still there.

Even now, as well off as I am, I tend to collect things (and by extension,
clutter) because I can see the potential need for something in the future.
I've been trying to overcome this mindset and slim down my possessions to the
things I need and the few sentimental items I have, but it's not easy at all.
If someone else came into my house and started trying to clean up, I'd
probably lose my mind (admittedly for a few unrelated reasons as well, but
largely because of this mindset)

~~~
pureliquidhw
Might be worth watching an episode of the show to better understand what
Kondo's process is. She doesn't clean or work some one off magic. She teaches
5(?) core lessons to help maintain tidiness. She doesn't excavate their piles
of stuff for them.

~~~
perfmode
I've found that 80% of the Kondo process has been discarding items. That's
just my personal take.

~~~
pureliquidhw
Perhaps, but it is the individual who throws things out, not her. That's the
distinction I was making.

------
callumprentice
As an obsessive organizer at home, almost to the point of my family's dismay
until they cackle at how easy it is to find things now, I feel like I need to
binge watch the whole series and hone my skills.

As well as the initial discard phase, organizational part (loads of plastic
boxes, label printer connected to a computer), the piece most people don't
mention is how to keep it tidy afterwards. In my experience the key to this is
making it absurdly easy to put something away - this means easy to access
storage, clear, easy to read labels and perhaps most importantly, plenty of
capacity to grow. It's no good putting all your widgets in a box that's only
just big enough to hold them. Later on when you acquire more, there will be
nowhere to put them so you'll likely leave them out or dump them in a
different box. I've used this approach in my garage, my home-office and our
medicine cupboard (closet) to great effect. Next up is the pantry..

~~~
npunt
> It's no good putting all your widgets in a box that's only just big enough
> to hold them.

One of my personal organizing rules is that if a box / container is over 80%
full, it’s time to split it and get a second box.

------
Tomte
I've always dismissed her stuff as one of those pseudo-spiritual neo-
philosophies that mix a bit of Eastern wisdom with platitudes and sell it to
affluent Westerners in search of meaning.

Talk about Baader-Meinhof effect: Just yesterday I spontaneously picked up the
book on Kindle, and I'm blown away.

It is so much more. Yes, there is a lot of marketing behind it, of course. But
I also sense an honesty in it that has already semi-convinced me to actually
do it!

And just a second ago I peeked into the Google Talk video and saw that she
doesn't speak English? If this was a marketing stunt, she would have learned
English (or the publisher would have found another figurehead).

I actually admire Marie Kondo quite a bit.

~~~
pureliquidhw
I really liked how the book comes with no strings attached. Everything you
need is in that one small book. No subscription, no rich dad poor dad XVII:
buy a cheap house and flip it trash. Just one book to help simplify life.

Might come across as a Kondo shill, the type of which I have called out
elsewhere on HN, so I accept any berating due. I do recommend getting it from
a local Library, watching the show, or just find a recap online!

------
ionforce
Odd that the article includes some weird non-Kondo advice about "don't touch
it", probably contrary even, given that her approach is very intimate/fluffy.

I guess the overall idea is to think more objectively about something's value,
using your own sense of "joy" as a proxy for that value function.

For a while now I've been thinking about writing a "Marie Kondo's approach
distilled for engineers"...

~~~
mc32
Well, /I/ think her approach is very marketing-oriented. For example she asks
whether an item sparks "joy". Joy is kind transient, very subjective, etc. But
it fits within her "shtick" and it works. For me, I'd ask whether it provides
utility, but that sounds very boring and isn't a term which would fit well in
marketing.

~~~
sct202
My parents have a basement overflowing of stuff that is full of potential
utility, so I think that the joy aspect is to provide a different view point
so people let go more easily.

~~~
mc32
True. But the same qualifier could be used for joy. Things could have
potential for providing joy, they're just not providing joy right now.

I guess, if I had "too many things", I'd probably set some parameters and get
rid of unnecessary duplicates, broken things unlikely to get repaired and
things unlikely to be used in any significant capacity in the foreseeable
future -knowing that one may possibly have to reacquire something one disposed
of.

------
ThrustVectoring
Fair warning for people with ADD/ADHD or otherwise struggle with organization:
removing clutter is a different thing than hiding away everything so that the
room is magazine-photograph ready. Being able to use your environment to give
you visual reminders of various outstanding tasks and statuses is an
incredibly important coping technique for people with executive function
issues. Like, I have a bunch of open wire shelves for storing the bulk of my
groceries - otherwise, I tend to literally forget that I have something, and I
won't notice when I get low or run out of things. It's ugly as hell, but it's
a _functional_ ugly, and dropping functionality to make things pretty is not
really a good idea IMO.

~~~
Obi_Juan_Kenobi
This also highlights _why_ it's so helpful to eliminate clutter; the things
you see are the things that matter.

When I open my fridge, I don't see amorphous 'stuff'; I've got leftovers one
and two here, extra ingredients that need to be used there and there, and the
rest is staples that remain there and get replaced as needed.

Anything that doesn't fit that gets tossed. If I can't pick it up and come up
with a plan for it, it goes in the bin. If it's a longer-term plan, it gets
noted on a list stuck to the door. ezpz

I waste less food now, and have less stress about meal planning. Pantry is
similar; at this point I can just glance at a shelf and sense whether I'm low
on something.

~~~
ThrustVectoring
Oh nice, sticking the note on the door is really useful for that sort of
thing. But yeah, the key insight is to make your environment as useful as
possible for the goals and life you want to have.

------
RcouF1uZ4gsC
Given the housing prices in the Bay Area, comparing the joy you get from
something with the cost to store it, can really help with decluttering. I live
in a smallish apartment, and was tempted to rent some extra storage for stuff
like holiday decorations and other stuff used seasonally. Then I realized at
$100/month for the extra storage, it is cheaper for me to buy the seasonal
stuff every year and then when I am done with it to throw away/recycle it.

------
kriro
I own an English version of her book and recently bought a German copy to give
as a gift for Christmas. Strange as it may sound, even though I don't really
like the "style of the method" it's very efficient. Thanking the items and the
whole sparking of joy are a bit over the top for me and chapter 5 is by and
large too spiritual for my taste. I toss the stuff away without any parting
words and joy for me is more a "is it useful" or "do I really need this"
(which is pretty much what she has in mind anyways).

What I consider pure gold is:

* Dumping everything on the floor and going through that mountain because it shows you very clearly how much stuff you have

* All the advice on folding. I actually enjoy the folding and storing now because I know it's more neat overall. I vastly prefer the vertical shirts to a stack now. I probably wouldn't have considered rethinking the old stack of stuff if it wasn't for the book

* Giving items a home of sorts is also a good overall concepts. I have caught myself thinking "this item is out of place, let me quickly return it to its home"

* Going by category instead of location...really helps me get started/keep tidying

On a related note, I found the Netflix series surprisingly
underwhelming/repetitive. The most useful parts were the folding explanations.

tl;dr: MK's stuff is great, I'd recommend the book to everyone :)

------
Kurtz79
(somewhat related) Still my favorite essay by Paul Graham:

[http://www.paulgraham.com/stuff.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/stuff.html)

~~~
kaybe
> Books are more like a fluid than individual objects.

Hm, this is an interesting idea.

~~~
wccrawford
It actually stands out to me as odd, given the rest of the article. The same
could be said about movies, games, toy cars, etc. Any 1 thing is easy to own a
lot of, so long as it's small.

It's when you have multiple collections, or even 1 collection that's too
large, that it's a problem.

I have a lot of hobbies that I do only occasionally, and the stuff from them
is a little overwhelming. And when combined with all my wife and I have kept
because we might need it some day, the hobby room is a disaster area.

We've even gone over our limit on books. To store more books, we'd have to get
rid of other things at this point. And most of those books just sit on shelves
and never get read. Some _might_ , but overall they're just not actually being
read.

To make it worse, books are one of the things that could be digital instead of
physical and they could take no space at all. I even prefer reading on my
Kindle over a physical book.

In the end, I just can't agree with him on books. (And I don't think Marie
Kondo does, either, based on watching a few episodes of the TV show.)

------
danjc
Marie's process is basically Map, then Reduce - for your home.

------
ergest
Messiness is highly correlated with creativity. People greatly preferred
convention in the tidy room and novelty in the messy room. [1]

[1] [https://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/15/opinion/sunday/its-not-
me...](https://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/15/opinion/sunday/its-not-mess-its-
creativity.html?_r=0)

~~~
nerdface
Did you read the research paper?

> Three experiments tested the novel hypotheses that orderly environments lead
> people toward tradition and convention, whereas disorderly environments
> encourage breaking with tradition and convention—and that both settings can
> alter preferences, choice, and behavior

Drawing conclusions from a single research paper referenced from an _opinion_
piece correlating messiness to alterations in choice and behavior in no way
discounts the benefits of a clutter-free environment.

------
oarabbus_
On the flipside

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty
desk a sign?” – Albert Einstein

~~~
ttarabula
Though I agree that there's a reductionist aspect to this declutter thinking,
I've always thought the answer to this question is "an ordered mind", which is
very different from an empty mind of course.

~~~
derefr
I think the implication _was_ "an empty mind." Picture not a cleared-off
tabletop, but an office desk with drawers where both the desktop and the
drawers are empty.

------
throwaway713
> Decisional procrastinators report that they have too much clutter, which
> interferes with their quality of life, and clutter, in turn, is the best
> predictor of procrastination.

Hmm... n=1 anecdote, but I hate clutter and lead a minimalist lifestyle yet
procrastinate quite a bit.

------
pmarreck
Is the video not playing for anyone else?

~~~
xutopia
It's just a trailer for the show. This small japanese woman walks in people's
homes with a huge smile and helps them organize their stuff. Houses are mostly
full of piles of unneeded things and there are many cutscenes of people crying
over getting rid of some things with sentimental value (deceased husband's
clothes for example).

Most of the conversation in this thread is about the content of the article.
The video was just for context.

------
dejaime
got to love that intrusive fullpage ad that needs to be scrolled down to be
closed. It was probably not worth reading anyway.

~~~
spinchange
The interstitial did not spark joy.

------
scotty79
I think I'll just buy another flat and move. I'll bring stuff from the old one
only after I need it.

