
I'd Love to Move, but I Can't - tpatke
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/03/the-go-nowhere-generation-speaks-id-love-to-move-but-i-cant/254579/
======
zdw
The fundamental problem in most of these is "lack of a safety net".

While there are safety nets in society they often exclude the years when
someone is most likely to take economic risks - for example, in the US a
minimum free medical coverage is provided to those people under 18 or over 65.

Personally, I'm thinking that if people knew they couldn't incur permanent
damage to themselves or their futures, they would take more risks. As falling
out of health insurance when you have a chronic condition (which is likely
genetic and not the person's fault) in America is one of those situations,
people stay in crap jobs that go nowhere, and aren't out there creating new
businesses.

~~~
MattBearman
_Personally, I'm thinking that if people knew they couldn't incur permanent
damage to themselves or their futures, they would take more risks._

Surely if people knew they couldn't incur permanent damage, it wouldn't be
much of a risk? I don't think people's risk aversion has changed, I just think
things are (or at least seem) more risky at the moment.

~~~
lutorm
I think what was meant was more along the lines of "if people knew they
couldn't incur _severe_ permanent damage..."

The problem seems to be that if you fall off the "middle-class bandwagon" in
the US, it's very difficult to get back on. Since medical emergencies or the
like can easily do this to you, people who might be willing to take a
reasonable risk become more focused on minimizing the risk of a really bad
outcome than on maximizing expected outcome.

------
tseabrooks
I'm 27 so I think I'm just a couple years outside of this generation that
can't find jobs. That said, I'm pretty sick and damned tired of seeing lists
of things keeping these 20-somethings from succeeding. It's time for people to
man up (Though I'm not excluding women) and take responsibility for themselves
and stop complaining about externalities keeping them from success and just go
out and succeed. The problem isn't the lack of jobs it's this loser, "The
world is against me", attitude. One of the young people quoted in the article
said, "not for the types of positions I'm qualified for". Another quipped
about a living wage. Does this person even know what a living wage is or what
that means?

Frankly, this article looks like it's full of over privileged cry-babies sad
that life isn't working out as perfect as they hoped. I say it's time for them
to pivot on life and stop the damned whining.

~~~
asolove
It's hard to point blame in one specific direction. Yes, you are right they
should take responsibility.

But these are people who grew up doing the "responsible" thing and listening
to the advice of teachers and parents. They made good grades whether or not
they learned, did extracurricular activities whether or not they enjoyed them,
and otherwise put aside any sort of personal decision-making for 21 years, in
the idea that a college degree would get them "success."

Given that, it isn't enough to just say "get a job, bum." They need some new,
concrete picture of how life works. With ideas like, do things you enjoy and
practice hard to get better at them, not to impress other people. Or, work
hard even at things you don't like, if it gets you the money, time, or skills
you need to do something else later.

And then the question is, how would you arrange a family or a school that
produces people who have these ideas naturally? Probably there'd be a lot more
opportunities for kids to do meaningful work/play, apprentice learning a
trade, and less focusing on getting into a prestigious school.

~~~
Duff
I have a group of friends who have master's degrees in art education (from a
private school), and are stuck being substitute art teachers and waiting
tables, because there are few openings for art teachers.

In their minds, they did the "responsible" thing. They got good grades, went
$100k+ plus in debt, and are waiting tables at age 28. The problem is, they
_didn't_ do the responsible thing -- they used alot of someone else's money to
learn a skill of very narrow utility. Now they need to pay the piper.

People lack a critical eye. It's amazing to me that people advise high school
kids the way that they do.

Frankly, I don't know how people do it. My wife and I make a good buck, own a
modest home and drive one 5 year old car. We don't owe anyone anything, and we
save alot, so we're "broke". I don't know how people fit a $400 student loan
payment in, while living a non-frugal lifestyle.

~~~
MatthewPhillips
High school students are getting advice that made since in the 1970s (when the
people who are advising them went to school). Go to college, "find yourself",
expand your horizons, etc. Then, that made you special. Today it just makes
you one of many without any discernible skills.

------
drats
As I see it the baby boomers, rightfully worried about their retirement, are
going to camp out in most top positions longer than we expected or was normal
in the past. This will inhibit upward mobility of younger people for quite
some time (retirement ages are creeping up all across the Western world).
Additionally they are demanding loyalty and commitment in the workplace from
the younger generation for part-time and casual jobs with no security which
would have been more secure full-time jobs in the past. There is constant
bellyaching from the baby boomers on this point about flighty millennials
without recognizing it's far less secure and stable than when they started.

All this combined with the student loans situation and the stagnant real wages
since the 1970s is going to be a big problem. You can see it very starkly in
the university system, but it applies everywhere. When the mass baby boomer
retirement comes social security and health systems will be put into stress
while the Western world is still in fairly deep debt. However, the baby
boomers will still be dominant in politics as they will retire later there,
and they will still be voting in retirement anyway.

On the long horizon graduates will then be fighting with a new generation of
kids with cheap online education and more modern skills and middle class BRIC
teleworkers. Non-graduates will, as has been the case for a long time, also be
competing increasingly with the rising BRIC workers. While there is potential
for full-automation to bring a lot of manufacturing back to the West in the
next few decades, that's not going to mean that many jobs. "Motherboards now
made in the USA again!" will be the cry... but by an automated factory
supervised by a handful of Ivy league engineers and some cheap maintenance
workers and self-driving trucks bringing in supplies. Amazon, Walmart and the
like will continue to clean up "mom and pop" shops, drugstores with skype
video connections to pharmacists in India to confirm prescriptions, even some
restaurants going for more automation. Farming is already down to a tiny
percentage of the population and the rest will be immigrants (illegal and
otherwise) and perhaps some robots too.

In this situation it's insane to go into 60-100k commercial debt for a
philosophy or fine arts degree given there are already distance and online
study options for these at insanely low prices (the "hobby/cultural
enrichment" argument is valid, I think society would be poorer without this
influence, but it doesn't need expensive on-campus study or a brand-name).
Those prices are only going to go down.

Things are going to get tougher.

~~~
InclinedPlane
I don't buy into this logic. I'm sure it has an effect, but I don't see how a
Baby Boomer working a job is worse for the economy than a Baby Boomer suckling
on the government teat on retirement. It's not a zero sum game, if someone is
doing productive work I think that's a net win for the economy.

~~~
wonderzombie
Err, if you're referring to social security that's money that they've been
paying into as part of their paycheck. But generally that's not the primary
source of income AIUI. Most people were counting on their 401Ks which
obviously took a hit by varying degrees. So there's a strong financial
incentive for them to delay retirement as long as possible.

Medicare may be considered suckling on the govt teat but uh getting old is
ridiculously expensive. I expect it would still not be enough depending on age
and severity of medical conditions.

~~~
InclinedPlane
If you think that the Social Security system works like some sort of bank,
I've got a few surprises for you.

~~~
drats
An excellent point, if somewhat weakened by the behavior of the banks as of
late.

------
OneBytePerGreen
What is new about this generation is that they graduate with enormous student
loan debt. They already have a "mortgage" or rent payment, only it goes
towards their loans.

We desperately need good alternatives to current universities, indeed... the
current default path of getting a degree by taking on enormous debt is just
not viable in this economic environment.

But I also understand the cynicism of a couple responses. I have a few
facebook friends in their twenties, and often enough, I read status messages
like "I'm so broke and can't find a job (Posted from my IPhone)" or "I just
spend two hours applying for ten jobs, will probably not hear back from any of
them" (yes, most likely). Also - probably in part due to the large debt
occurred to get their specific degree - some fresh graduates seem unwilling to
expand their job search beyond their chosen field.

------
scarmig
I love that we simultaneously have a heap of victim blaming that

(a) they need to develop their professional networks more and (b) they just
need to man up and move to South Dakota.

Before you start commenting with an easy solution, you should stop and think:
if everyone did this, what would happen?

In the case of everyone networking better, it would simply recreate the
current situation but biased towards those who are inherently better at
networking. Well-written resumes aren't themselves valuable: they work as a
signal of someone standing out from the crowd. But if everyone does that, it
just shifts the equilibrium.

In the case of everyone moving to South Dakota, you'd end up with an
unemployment rate of 30% in South Dakota. More than that, even: the number of
unemployed in California is currently 2 million, which is more than double
South Dakota's total population, let alone workforce, even ignoring the heap
of infrastructure issues and mass destruction of social capital that would be
involved in that kind of movement.

Instead, look at issues of public choice, broken institutions, and the system
as a whole. Do not bother trying to blame (or excuse, for that matter) the
individuals involved, unless what you're interested in is furthering a persona
of being a hard-ass concerned with individual responsibility and tough love
(or, on the other side, a persona of someone who is exceptionally sympathetic
and caring toward others). Because whatever state individuals are in now as a
result of their choices, as a whole those same individuals, made of the same
stock and character and making the same general choices, were better off 6
years ago. What's changed, and how can we reverse or modulate it to improve
overall outcomes?

~~~
eli_gottlieb
>what you're interested in is furthering a persona of being a hard-ass
concerned with individual responsibility and tough love (or, on the other
side, a persona of someone who is exceptionally sympathetic and caring toward
others).

Ah, but that's what people are actually interested in!

------
Apreche
I saw this problem coming way in advance. As soon as a graduated college I
moved directly to NYC. Do not pass Go, DO collect a lot more than $200. There
are a zillion jobs here of all kinds, so I am not worried about losing my job
at all.

The cost of living seems high, but it pays off. Wages are higher, for one
thing. What money I lose because of higher rent I gain in that there are
awesome things happening all over the place just a short bike ride from my
house. That's worth the price of admission alone. But also I don't have to pay
for a car, and many other expenses of the suburbs just don't exist.

Of course, now that I'm here I would not love to move. I think I might be a
homeless bum before I moved somewhere else. I'd like to travel, but I can't
imagine staying anywhere else as a permanent resident.

------
DanI-S
It seems almost the opposite in the UK. Out of my original group of home town
friends (from a pretty even mix of low and high income backgrounds), very few
people haven't moved at least to another city. A large number of us have
actually emigrated, at least temporarily.

The modern, British means of surviving an economic downturn without going
crazy seems to be doing a Teaching English as a Foreign Language course
somewhere far away and interesting.

~~~
robin_reala
At least 3 of my UK friends have TEFLed in Japan or South Korea, and I had it
as a fallback plan at one point too.

------
rglover
I think one of the problems is that a lot of "twenty something's" still
believe in their degree. A B.A. means pretty much nothing. As a recent
graduate (about six months ago), I can honestly say that _not_ letting my
degree do the work for me was the smartest decision I've ever made. Grads need
to realize that there are thousands holding the same, useless piece of paper.
If you want to make money, teach yourself some cool shit and hit the road.
It's terrifying, sure, but I think there's a lot of false hope in your four
year stint magically converting into a $50k+/year job.

~~~
jiggy2011
It's not really that easy to just _"teach yourself some cool shit and hit the
road"_.

We seem to have this attitude here because you can just read a "ruby in 10
days" type guide online and start hacking away.

This just isn't true in many other industries or professions where you would
need to either incur significant costs or have completed an apprenticeship in
order to practice.

------
sequoia
Perhaps there is a market here: Inexpensive boarding houses for young people
trying to get a start in high-cost-of-living job centers. If there were a
place for young folks to live where you could get a room w/space for a bed and
a desk, shared bathroom/showers, and 2 meals/day for, say $300-500/mo in
Boston, I bet they would fill up. Allow people to focus on finding work, give
them a leg up of sorts.

In my imaginary boarding house, you wouldn't get to "have it your way," you'd
have to sacrifice some individual liberty out of deference to neighbors. To
throw some random examples out there: your lease would not renew past 2 years
(not meant to be permanent), maybe there's some work-trade to keep costs down,
no music after e.g. 10, no guests after e.g. 11, perhaps locked front door
from 0000-0530. The point of that sort of thing is a) to keep stuff under
control so it doesn't become a party flop-house (e.g. "this is not your
college dorm") b) keep people focused on their mission while there (to find a
job and improve their situation) and c) to give people a strong incentive to
move out.

I'm thinking of the boarding houses of ye olden days: it was cheap, frequently
temporary, you had the amenities of a home (sleep, bathe, perhaps food), but
it wasn't "your house" and you weren't entitled to treat it as such.

I think this'd be a great way for recent graduates to move to a big town like
Boston or SF to look for work with much less stress & economic demands (in
exchange for less "personal freedom"). My hat goes off to cletus's NY friend
who "lives in a garage for $300/mo" but this isn't really scalable and most
people can't find such a situation.

Anyway this is just a brainstorm about how I wish there were cheaper living
options for new arrivals in BOS.

~~~
eli_gottlieb
>Perhaps there is a market here: Inexpensive boarding houses for young people
trying to get a start in high-cost-of-living job centers. If there were a
place for young folks to live where you could get a room w/space for a bed and
a desk, shared bathroom/showers, and 2 meals/day for, say $300-500/mo in
Boston, I bet they would fill up. Allow people to focus on finding work, give
them a leg up of sorts.

I have two responses here:

A) In Boston, it would never be allowed. Boston-Cambridge municipalities have
_LOVED_ the boom in rental values from both the growing student populations
and their low unemployment rates. Why would they ruin a good thing by allowing
new building, let along ugly, high-density boarding houses that resemble
nothing more than _student_ housing? And everyone official in Boston who isn't
a student despises students.

B) I've thought of starting just this, but it WOULD be your college dorm (or
at least, in the style of my old college dorms). Checks on room conditions
every so often, eviction for damage or partying too much, month-to-month
tenancy. You're missing an angle here: many people _like_ the dorm/boarding-
house lifestyle better than the apartment/house lifestyle. Many people _enjoy_
not owning very much and having the majority of their life be "out there".

C) That fact leaves us with the opportunity to create a social environment for
the long-term residents _and_ to branch off into things like supplying network
access or food-service.

In short, this is an _amply_ viable business model (works for all the damn
colleges!) that never gets used due to municipal and cultural biases against
it.

------
lxt
I'm really surprised they don't mention "I'd love to move but I can't sell my
house in the current market." I know at least five people in this boat.

~~~
ctdonath
Mortgages are seductive. Get a nice place, up to or beyond social norms, but
be tied to it for decades. Outright ownership, while humbling, gives far more
flexibility.

~~~
InclinedPlane
A proper mortgage with a decent downpayment is effectively identical to
ownership. The biggest advantages of a downpayment are protecting against just
the sorts of problems we've seen. For one, saving up a downpayment shows that
you are a fiscally responsible person with stable employment in the past. For
another, it gives you instant equity and protects you against being upside
down due to market fluctuations.

You put in your downpayment and a year or two of mortgage payments and even in
the market goes down a bit you still have enough equity to avoid being
trapped. You can sell or rent and move elsewhere.

~~~
lxt
Around here, some places have halved in value, which is more than a year or
two's worth of payments.

------
pnathan
A big problem here is perceived risk and unwillingness to step out of the
comfort zone.

The other problem is money: when you are dropping > $500/month on student
loans, you _have_ to have a job before you move.

I remember being graduated in 2006 with a BSCS and so broke I could not move
without a relocation benefit. I was debating hitchhiking to Seattle or SF and
bumming around with a laptop looking for coding work, but I wound up not
having to.(Answer to this problem: save about 3K or so and don't ever let go).

------
MatthewPhillips
Job centers are damaging themselves with high cost of living. It easily
offsets the increase in wage. They valley is a great example of this, if
you're moving there for the first time you might get, what, 80k, which is
equivalent to 55 or 60k in anywhere that's not California or New York. It's
hard to justify a move when you see your standard of living dipping a little
until you can establish a reputation that warrants higher wage.

~~~
pchristensen
This short ebook explains it extremely well: [http://www.amazon.com/The-Rent-
Damn-High-ebook/dp/B0078XGJXO...](http://www.amazon.com/The-Rent-Damn-High-
ebook/dp/B0078XGJXO/)

Basically, prices are so high because that is where building supply is
constrained.

This book [http://www.amazon.com/Gated-City-Kindle-Single-
ebook/dp/B005...](http://www.amazon.com/Gated-City-Kindle-Single-
ebook/dp/B005KGATLO) explains the nationwide economic consequences of
constraining housing supply (and thus rising prices) in the most economically
productive areas.

------
cletus
Reading through this list of anecdotes I had mixed emotions. I spent a
significant amount of time unemployed 10+ years ago in the post-dotcom
recession in the UK and it was awful. This was partly due to the highly
unregulated nature of UK IT recruitment but the problem was the lack of jobs.

Still, a see some problems in this article. Like "I graduated with a
philosophy major in 2008". Bzzzzt. Sorry, you made choices. People need to
realize that college is an opportunity that comes with a significant cost
(real and opportunity). You may want to major in South American literature but
you need to have a plan for what you're going to do in the Real World. Or at
least question whether the cost of college is worth it.

As for state residencies, depending on the state it may only take a year to
establish residency in a new state. This can mean the first year of college is
expensive but then it gets cheaper (IIRC California works this way) or it
means you move there and flip burgers or whatever for a year.

The second thing I picked out was "there are no jobs in my area". I have no
sympathy for this. Either you didn't think about this beforehand or your area
is just hard to get into. Doing a degree in that area doesn't entitle you to a
job. Get a job. _Any_ job. Jobs are like social proof. It's far easier to get
a job when you have a job.

The third thing I picked out was that it's expensive to move. No it isn't. You
can get from pretty much anywhere in the US to anywhere else for under $500.
What's that? You want your _stuff_? Ok, _that's_ the real problem.

I think back to Fight Club: the things you own end up owning you. You
basically need little more than a bed to sleep on. I think back to that photo
of Steve Jobs from the 80s sitting on the floor of his apartment with just a
lamp. He basically didn't own anything.

I can tell you from experience it's incredibly liberating to just get rid of
your stuff.

If you want to move to New York City (as one example) to find work, it's not
expensive. Bring yourself, some clothes and a laptop and you can get here for
maybe as little as $100. Find a cheap town in the commuter belt and find
temporary accommodation (eg I know someone who works in Manhattan but lives
above a garage in Long Island for $300/month) and just come in to the city
when you need to go to interviews.

And the beauty of NYC is you can get rid of that car too. Oh you want a car?
You can have one... when you can afford it.

Oh you want a social life? And a furnished home where you can "entertain"? You
can have those things... when you can afford them.

EDIT: let me clarify one point. I was careful to say you "need a plan" for the
real world when it comes to college. That phrasing was deliberate and
different to treating college as some kind of vocational processing plant. It
means if you spend 8 years studying history at top schools and rack up
$200,000 in debt then you probably made some bad choices. But if you studied
philosophy at a state school and worked part-time such that you have little or
no debt, then you've made far better choices.

~~~
brandall10
I was slightly offput by this comment "the financial costs of moving (which
are high - I've definitely spent hundreds on new drinking glasses alone!)"

Who spends hundreds on drinking glasses when they're financially strapped?
That mindset percolates outward.

I think a good part of this outlook comes from kids who came from upper middle
class backgrounds, went to good schools, and expect to repeat the success of
their parents and live accordingly without much sacrifice.

Full disclosure: I fit that description. And like you I was laid off in 2001
and looked for other programming jobs to no avail for months... I remember my
mindset well, strongly that of the victim. I was paralyzed to do anything
other than cold call companies/recruiters, spruce up the resume on
monster/dice, and feel sorry for myself over and over again on a daily basis.
It only happened that a friend was working at a company I had an offer from in
'99 and they were happy to give me a job. "Yes, dodged a bullet, got lucky!"
And that's all it was, luck. I certainly didn't make it happer for myself.
I've been working at that company for 11 years and for the most part it's been
a ho-hum experience; I am actively working to move on to something better by
doing freelance work on the side for cheap to build up a portfolio. I wonder
how my life would have turned out if that safety net hadn't been there.

~~~
jandrewrogers
This. There is a large segment of the American population that cannot fathom
living a life not based on gross consumerism. It is a crippling behavior when
you have little income and are just starting out because it prevents you from
accumulating the savings required for economic flexibility.

When I was in my 20s and poor, I think the most I ever spent on drinking
glasses in total was a few dollars, and I moved many times. I managed to
actually save a modest amount of money making terrible wages in an expensive
city without a particularly poor lifestyle but I only occasionally spent money
on toys that I did not genuinely need. It made it possible for me to bootstrap
myself to a very good job and to develop good saving and spending habits.

~~~
jdludlow
Amen.

The trait of rich people that I try to emulate (not always successfully) is
that they tend to purchase assets that appreciate in value. Toys are paid for
with highly disposable money and not the nest egg.

The trait of poor people that I try to avoid is purchasing depreciating
assets, usually on credit ensuring that you'll be poor until that lotto ticket
hits big (i.e. forever).

~~~
true_religion
Isn't this pretty hard?

Most assets depreciate. Here's a non-exhaustive list: furniture, kitchen
supplies, food, electronics, and vehicles.

It seems like it'd be hard if you're poor to avoid having a large chunk of
your income go towards things that depreciate immediately you touch them.

~~~
jdludlow
It isn't easy, but it pays off. I slept on my floor for 2 years _after_ I got
a job as an engineer at IBM.

The overall point is this. If you say that you're poor, but you have a cable
connection, TV, cell phone, data plan, multiple cars on finance, large student
loans for that lib arts degree, and eat out at restaurants, then you're poor
by choice. It's fixable via a change in priorities. I'm not claiming that
everyone is in this situation, but many people fall squarely into this bucket.

------
tallanvor
In order to make a major move, you have to feel that the opportunities in the
new place are worth the cost of uprooting yourself and leaving your friends
and family behind. You also have to be willing to put yourself into a sink or
swim situation - when you're in a new place where you don't know anyone, your
ability to fallback and rely on someone is pretty much nonexistent.

Personally, I've made 4 major moves: first from my hometown in Washington
State to Chicago, then to Raleigh, on to London, and now I'm in Oslo. Each
time I decided to move, it was because I felt that the new location would
yield better opportunities in the long run. --Even Raleigh, despite being too
southern for my tastes.

Major moves aren't easy, but for me they've always been worth it in the long
run (I never want to live in Raleigh again, but if I hadn't decided to try it
out, I probably wouldn't have made it to Europe). I'd recommend that people
take the chance.

------
bdunbar
It's simple. If there is no work where you are, then you need to move to where
the work _is_.

Lots of places are hiring - we are, in the middle of inner nowwhere Midwest. I
hear there are jobs going begging in North Dakota, in the oil fields. Not the
most pleasant of jobs, but 3rd shift on a rig pays better than not working at
all.

------
einhverfr
I have often thought that the decline in multi-generational families in the US
was due in part to social security, and in part to the increasing demands of
mobility. With social security no longer providing the safety net it used to
and with mobility down, maybe this is why more multi-generational households
are popping up all across America.

I have found it interesting how many people I knew who went off to college and
moved back into the same county or even small town where they grew up, after a
few years away after college. We are perhaps not as mobile as we'd like to
think.

------
ctdonath
There are jobs. There are growth areas. MOVE THERE. Sure, South Dakota may not
seem desirable, but survival comes first and even McDonalds there is paying
hiring bonuses.

Too much of society believes the prolific promises happiness and comfort
without effort (and vote accordingly). Reality doesn't work that way; figure
it out fast or a world of hurt will arrive.

~~~
eli_gottlieb
If everyone took your advice, South Dakota would have high unemployment. It's
not a solution.

------
gryzzly
A good advice to "20 years old" who can't move – learn JavaScript. You will be
able to move to just about any place. Esp. if you are an american citizen.
Within the US, to Canada or Europe, or Thailand, or any other place.

~~~
devs1010
At first I thought "why JavaScript" (and not any of the other web programming
languages) but I realized this does make some sense as nearly all web apps
nowadays use JavaScript whereas the other backend languages are more
fractured. Of course, its better to learn some other languages too, but some
of the new JS frameworks are awesome and it looks like demand is only going to
increase for dev's with this skill

