
Ask HN: How do I escape webdev? - valleyforge
I&#x27;m a self-taught spaghetti coder webdev with thirteen years of beginner experience; mostly learning by googling how to do everything as I built web apps for small businesses or wired up forms and APIs through agencies. It worked for a long time, and yeah I&#x27;m probably that guy who wrote that stinky codebase you&#x27;re dealing with. I&#x27;m not particularly proud of that.<p>Anyway, my &quot;skills&quot; (heh) seem to be mostly irrelevant now. I hated frontend ever since the responsive era, but I got by sticking to less design intensive stuff. These days the web is evolving very rapidly and I&#x27;ve kept up sorta, but I&#x27;m not passionate about this field, I&#x27;m getting older and there&#x27;s lots of competition now and I&#x27;m unemployed. I basically want to get as far away from Node and React and CSS as possible. What&#x27;s a good path out?
======
tekkk
So you want to write spagetti in another language because webdev is getting
too difficult? In my opinion one should strive to learn their craft well, and
if you havent by now, you should very quickly educate yourself out of writing
bad code. Otherwise it's a habit that keeps you feeling bad about you and your
code and hold you at disadvantage against that competition you are so worried
about.

But if you think a break in another domain would just magically make
everything better, try becoming an expert in some obscure domain in some not-
well reputed company. There most of your work will probably end up be
muttering a few words in meetings and drinking coffee, with no one to tell you
what to do as they dont really understand your domain.

There are a lot of codebases with really bad code that no one wants to take
care of, so findind a gig like that would probably also pay you well.

~~~
BookPage
Honestly it sounds more like OP is stuck int the bad code trap because they
work alone. Couple that with web dev and of course the world would seem bleak.
Frontend code can be beautiful and maintainable but not having senior people
to help you even know what that means sounds frustrating to me. my vote is to
join a company as an intern/junior and grow.

~~~
plodman
100%. I worked alone for a few years. Again self taught web development. I
tried to read the “best practices” for the languages I was learning. But it
was bugs galore and code I feared maintaining after release.

I then spent 5 months at a company in a team where every bit of code went
through a peer review process. Even I was responsible for reviewing others
code. I learnt a hell of a lot, we barely had any bugs and if we found a bug,
it was usually easy to fix. Since then, writing maintainable and (importantly)
readable code is my standard and I try and help other Devs do the same.

~~~
reportgunner
It's nice how you are telling the OP to _just learn to write nice code_ and
then you support it by anecdote about how others taught you to _write nice
code_.

I am not under the impression that OP wants to continue writing bad code.

~~~
AndrewDucker
He's telling the OP to _join a team who will support you_.

~~~
plodman
That’s exactly what I was referring to. I thought by replying to the comment
that mentioned joining a team would have provided the context of what I was
agreeing too...

------
PopeDotNinja
Self taught developer here.

I learned to write better code by making code testable. When writing spaghetti
code with a few tests, I'd create a big mess that worked. But then I'd try to
add a test for something new and I couldn't figure out how to make it work.
After coding myself into a corner enough times, I'd eventually learn to create
more flexible abstractions. And eventually the code started making a bit more
sense out if necessity.

The next big jump in my understanding was learning Elixir and the actor model.
Learning how to write async code that didn't get a reply and where messages
might not be received was huge.

I didn't get my first dev job until I was 40. I most definitely understand
what it feels like being older than my peers in this industry. My secret
weapon is knowing my shit and working my ass off to stay relevant. This is a
hard industry if you don't like it enough to keep your skills sharp. Like you,
I don't relish front-end development, but I do my best to learn what I need to
know as needed.

------
ac29
I've got a friend who almost exactly met your description a few years ago. He
moved into technical sales at a midsized SaaS startup and its been a good fit.
If you're technically inclined enough to write even hacky code that works, you
can probably wrap your head around a companies software product enough to do
technical sales.

------
Kaotique
A lot of websites these days are "build to last", but that is almost always a
sales argument with very weak evidence. It just sells well to the client
because they think they buy something for the future. And every agency or
freelancer sells the same lie.

We make websites according to the latest fad and all your work will be thrown
out when the business decides to change agency, framework or rebuild
everything in some marketing automation tool. I've worked in an agency for
almost 10 years and I have accepted that fact.

No matter how beautiful your code is, most web code is thrown away after a
couple years anyway. It is just has to do what it is supposed to do, nobody
cares about the code.

Agencies also deliver spaghetti code, what is the definition of that anyway?
All code is spaghetti in some way. All real code is a mix of different styles
and approaches. It will be a mix of OOP, Functional, declarative, imperative
code. It is all custom build by different people with different backgrounds.

If you want to work on a more structured codebase then try applying to a
company who have 1 product and 1 big codebase. You are likely to find much
more structured code there because organising codebases take a lot of time and
effort. For a larger codebase with more people working on it things like
design patters, rules, best practices, linters and tests will become useful
and teams will add then over time.

You will not easily find all of that in web development simply because there
is no budget for it. There is only 1 goal in web development. Add as much
business value in the least amount of hours.

You can be proud on what you delivered for the businesses you worked for. You
solved their problems and you created value for them. No matter what the code
looks like. As long as it was secure and it worked then it was perfect for
what it was supposed to achieve. Don't be so hard on yourself.

------
d--b
\- mobile / desktop apps. Very frontendy but less messy than web.

\- start a business yourself with your skills to build the mvp then hire
people to do the front end work and move to core business work

\- build the mvp for another startup and move to core business work

\- do more BI stuff. BI people will hire you to make charts and shit. Then you
can learn BI there.

\- make fake interfaces for movies ?

\- teach

~~~
sgz
Please don’t become a teacher if you’re not passionate about what you teach.
It’d be a personal and social harm.

~~~
zrobotics
Vouching your comment, as this is a very valid point. If the OP is sick of
webdev, they the likely end case is that they will just end up discouraging
their students.

------
actionowl
> I'm not passionate about this field

What are you passionate about?

> I'm unemployed.

Now is the best time to really ask yourself what you're passionate about and
how you really want to spend your finite time on earth.

> I basically want to get as far away from Node and React and CSS as possible.
> What's a good path out?

It's hard to give any suggestions without know what you want to get more into?
Do you enjoy web development but hate what it has become? If so, you're not
alone for example the NoScript extension has 1,688,456 users in the Firefox
Add-on store. You can still make web applications with 0 lines of JavaScript.
Just hare React? Well, jQuery didn't stop working when React was invented.

------
muzani
When you ask for another path out, do you mean in programming or another
field?

There's always lots of jobs in app development, back end, game development,
AI/ML, and so on. You still have a baseline of usable skills, mainly debugging
and knowing why spaghetti code is bad.

It also sounds like you've been in some bad companies with poor mentoring. You
might have to move around a bit, work with a better culture, but they uh,
don't hire people who aren't brilliant. It's a circular problem, but moving
might help. Code Review Stack Exchange and Programmers SE are good for
pointing out otherwise obvious things you have never picked up.

------
tiborsaas
Go learn Rust (no pun intended). You can still do web stuff with it, but it
will open new paradigms for you. With the stricter rules it enforces on you,
your craft will level up. Not sure where to go from there though :)

To leave frontend behind, you can maybe check out database focused projects,
try devops, learn graphics or the ultimate answer: try management as a team
lead or product owner, I'm sure in 13 years you've seen web project from all
angles.

If you have enough money left, try to relax, read some IT classic books and
don't think about work for a while, you will know what to do most likely.

~~~
jobseeker990
Why rust vs python or golang?

~~~
adventured
Rust has a few interesting things going for it versus Golang.

It's more difficult to learn, it's more intimidating to get into and keeps
more devs away because of that, and it's in high demand. That can be a great
combination for job security.

Golang and Python are also both perfectly fine and in demand, however they
don't have the complexity / difficulty barrier to entry that Rust does. In
terms of candidates in the job market, Python is pretty well flooded at this
point (especially for less demanding work).

If you wanted to stand out from a pack, I'd choose Rust over Golang and Golang
over Python. However you'll see a lot of lower-mid and mid-tier ability devs
in Golang that have come from languages like PHP, because it's fairly easy to
dive into. You don't see that nearly so often with Rust.

~~~
tcbasche
I have literally never seen a Rust job advertised anywhere. I think it's 'high
demand' in our minds because it's so esoteric outside of Hackernews

~~~
steveklabnik
The March 2020 "Who's Hiring" thread from two days ago on this very website
shows five jobs, with two more where Rust knowledge is a plus.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22465476](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22465476)

~~~
tcbasche
Well, I think my point stands. It's in-demand within the HN bubble but is
unheard of outside it

------
kfk
Everything is becoming a huge database with some light interface stuck on top
of it. Maybe you can apply your webdev skills in another industry. I think
“ai” products will need webdev to sell and work.

------
openlowcode
I know what you mean. While web is unavoidable in some area for the 'instant
deployment' benefit it brings (in consumer internet...), it lacks in my
opinion a solid architecture fundation (separation of business data and
layout...), and we pay a high price for this (costly development, high cost of
obsolescence...). So I prefer to avoid web development when I can.

Also, many development environments (not only web) are not keen with 'medium
skill' developpers: the architecture is too complex that it is a mess just
navigating around, and it requires self discipline and experience to organize
your development. There should be, in my opinion, a 'safe place' for people
whose job is just to transcript business requirements into working code
without requiring extra 'architecture' skills. Most IT departments of
companies have this 'medium skillset' population, and as a result, there is a
lot of waste and drama.

With that in mind, I spent around 1 year of my private time designing a low-
code framework to provide enteprise IT developers with a 'medium skillset' an
efficient tool to develop business apps. This is fully open-source, so do not
hesitate to have a look and get involved (
[https://openlowcode.com/](https://openlowcode.com/) )

~~~
MetalGuru
Instant deployment and obsolescence is the same sentence. Do you not see the
contradiction? Also, how on earth does the web not have a separation of
concerns between business logic and UI?

~~~
openlowcode
Hi,

I am not sure what your point is. Instant deployment is an advantage of web
architecture: you have nothing to do on the user device for them to use the
new version of your software (barring some rare issues with browser cache).

On the other hand, so far at least, a web application does not age so well at
the timescale of enterprise software (an application will live 10-30 years in
a company). So we have an obsolescence problem often, i.e. a 5+ years old
application will need to be rebuilt to use more modern technology, often at a
high cost.

Originally, web architecture mixed in web pages presentation and business
data, a result of an hypertext architecture being used for transactional
software it was not aimed at at the beginning. Sure, there have been billion
of dollars of investment in web technology since then and a lot of things have
improved. However, I have the strong feeling things are still messed-up,
especially for developments 'in the wild' for team who do not have strong
architecture skills.

------
daw___
DevOps would seem the perfect path out to me. You won't have to work on code
anymore, but you could still use your coding experiences when implementing
deployment solutions.

------
_benj
As a self-taught developer (although I don’t think self-taught has anything to
do with it) I strongly relate to you! I’m currently a full-stack and working
hard to transition away from webdev. The first (and probably hardest) thing
for me was to decide what to transition towards, and that’s a question that
only you can answer. If you are self-taught I’m gonna take a guess that you
once had this huge curiosity and strong motivation to learn coding! You
probably skipped sleep from time to time because it was such a rush learning
all those cool things! One clue to decide what to transition towards could be
finding again that same motivation that made you learn by yourself in the
first place. As an example, I’m currently learning x86 architecture, assembly,
C, kernel development, etc... because (after a few years exploring) I finally
decided that I want to transition towards low level hardware programming.

Another idea about transitioning could be taking a break from development.
Maybe there are other technical skills that you have or can learn (i.e. video
editing, 3D design, penetration testing, etc...) that might spark that
original flame or leaning and enjoying what you do.

One last thing is, take a look at the flow state. I remember reading the book
“Deep Work” in a time that I was in a job that I hated and about to throw the
towel and the ideas in the book completely changed my experience at work. It
was still the same job but my attitude was drastically different and I started
enjoying immensely what I was doing! (Still quit and got a better job... bad
organizational culture is quite hard to fix)

Anyways, wish you the best in your search!!

~~~
arvinsim
> Another idea about transitioning could be taking a break from development.
> Maybe there are other technical skills that you have or can learn (i.e.
> video editing, 3D design, penetration testing, etc...) that might spark that
> original flame or leaning and enjoying what you do.

As someone who is in the same boat as OP, I think this is the path I want to
take. I am currently learning UI and Product Design to augment my web coding
skills.

Seems to be a natural path since I got frustrated that I can code websites but
couldn't conceptualize one in the first place.

------
sshine
You could always try your luck with middle-out compression.

------
ooooak
> I basically want to get as far away from Node and React and CSS as possible.
> What's a good path out?

.net core or spring boot?

~~~
teniutza
If it's going to be .net, give Blazor a try:
[https://dotnet.microsoft.com/apps/aspnet/web-
apps/blazor](https://dotnet.microsoft.com/apps/aspnet/web-apps/blazor).

Still, this does not completely skip de design/style part.

------
severak_cz
I understand you. I am also self-taught webdev working in small company with
loooots of legacy/scary code behind us.

I somewhat lost interest in new cool frameworks/technologies and somewhat
stagnated in "JQuery era".

For me, these three ideas helped:

1) have life outside work. Have some hobbbies/friends/social activities. Do
not try to find meaning in work.

2) do something completely different with computers. For example - I started
making computer music, coding my own VST instruments in Csound etc...

3) try new technologies in meaningful project. Not just code for code sake.
For example: I am currently implementing custom point of sales system for
friend who is curating gallery. In this system I have tried to use Vue.js and
found it very useful.

~~~
akor
I think I actually agree with your #1 item but also find it sad as 8-10 hours
a day is a lot of time to just grind for the sake of supporting your other
activities. I'd love to find a middle ground but it may not exist.

------
backend_founder
Leverage your experience and knowledge. Dont start from scratch.

Do some node-backend projects and working your way into a decent full time
position.

OR try full stack development of react + java backend.

Jhipster sets u up with a full SAAS demo-type app with java-spring-boot, SQL,
and react. You need to learn about hosting, DB, config, network issues, etc.
Just getting a full app hosted and working on a free heroku server will give
some starter backend experience.

If you are willing to put in the time, u can do a first backend gig by
combining this with some minimal front end react work.

Where r u located?

p.s. it also sounds like you have some burn out and life issues - which may or
may not be solved by better work

------
codingdave
Can you clarify whether you are asking how to get out of web dev, but stay in
tech? Or are you asking what to do with your life because you lost the passion
for tech?

Because the answers to those questions are completely different.

------
pkaye
You could try joining a company that does webdev and something else you might
enjoy. Then after a little time there doing webdev, get to know those in the
other teams and see if you can get a chance to work with them.

------
csomar
This has been suggested by someone else but I'll suggest it again: Learn Rust.
I was in your shoes a couple years ago, and decided I'm done with the
Spaghetti. I got lured into Rust, somehow. It was the best thing that probably
happened to my programming/development skills.

I've been doing some JavaScript (again) lately, and I have decided that I can
only go on forward with TypeScript. Rust strict types, traits and patterns
will completely change how you approach and think about code.

------
ruicaridade
There's a chance you may get stuck with React again due to React Native and
Electron if you move to mobile or desktop apps. Maybe try transitioning to
Full-Stack and eventually Backend?

------
trenchgun
Why not just fuck your demons and learn modern web dev?

~~~
valleyforge
I've thought about going to a bootcamp, but I'm not sure I want to double down
after a decade. Burnout is a real thing.

~~~
Gibbon1
Could look for 'IoT' jobs.

------
llarsson
You mention burnout in another comment thread here. With that often comes a
feeling of powerlessness and apathy.

"Escaping webdev" is the easy part --- you just need to quit. But doing so is
only a transition away from something. We need to find what you should
transition toward, instead.

What are your skills that you still feel at least somewhat passionate about?
And how can we turn that into a future career?

------
perceptronas
Sounds like a problem with the code you write instead of industry. Like you
are not proud of your work and it eats you.

Almost everything is connected to web nowadays(frontend and backend) and it
certainly doesn't have to be as bad as you describe. I would advice to try
automating as many things as possible. Especially things you don't like as
there is a lot of motivation for that

------
fourmyle
Practice Leetcode for half a year until you get good at interview questions.
Scour your network for referrals to big companies. Do well on the Leetcode
interview you will get. Once you get in work for about a year then say you are
unhappy and transfer teams. Go to a distributed systems, ml, ai team etc.

------
gremlinsinc
Feeling the same way, which is why I'm wanting to build some open source apps
that replace as much as possible w/ db/api from db...e.g. using Hasura + React
or Vue to create a SaaS framework, to re-use for multiple business ideas,
maybe have a hosted version or being open core as a biz model.

------
thrownaway954
get your cissp or oscp cert and go into the infosec sector. you make a ton of
money and are basically in a managerial role so there is little hands on and
zero coding.

get a cloud cert in aws, azure or google and basically do dev ops at a large
scale. again... tons of money and zero web development.

------
mkez00
I was re-invigorated a few years back after doing nothing but webdev when I
was thrown into a SysOps role (on AWS primarily). Having a webdev background
helped when building small applications to hack things together.

------
catacombs
> thirteen years of beginner experience

My God. I'd love to learn more about your background. How, if you've worked in
web development since 2007, consider yourself a beginner?

~~~
EADGBE
Could be humble. Or could be like me and have a severe inferiority complex,
mostly from the constant flexing of recent CS grads always makes you feel like
you really don't know what you're doing.

Even if you do.

~~~
kangnkodos
I feel like a beginner a lot of the time.

There are several competing forces at play.

On the one hand, JavaScript is changing every year. CSS releases new features
such as grid. New releases of frameworks such as Vue and Svelte are released.
React launches hooks. The list goes on and on. You read the headlines about
all of the new stuff, but you may not actually use the new stuff in a real
project.

On the other hand, the client needs features yesterday, and there's a need to
deliver new features as fast as possible with the functionality you know
inside and out.

You keep using the small core of functionality you know over and over again
for years. You know a small number of things very well, but you know nothing
about many things you read about. There's a whole world of things that experts
know that you have never used.

Maybe a lot depends on your environment? If you're at a shop with 100
developers, a few developers might spend a lot of time playing with new stuff,
and teaching it to others. In a small shop, your results may vary. Not every
shop has that new junkie who jumps on the newest thing, evaluates it as
appropriate for this shop or not, and efficiently teaches the new stuff to
others.

I try to use and learn new things, but it's time consuming. So even though I
am learning new stuff all the time, I often feel closer to the beginner side
than the expert side.

The default is to make the donuts every day with the tools you have. It takes
effort to learn new things and use them in a real project.

I'm happy to answer any questions.

------
santa_boy
Have you considered analytics? I think of it as progression and you might want
to continue the web-dev work with a new hire. They make a decent story
together

------
ygggvg
Go to a smaller company. They are much slower on changing technology.

~~~
brtkdotse
Really? My experience is the exact opposite - large orgs choose a tech stack
and invest heavily, staying on it for years, if not decades. A client is still
on .Net 4.

~~~
ygggvg
If it is not a modern startup my experience was always the other way: software
had to work and the stack didn't matter and was not often updated.

------
staticautomatic
Back end Python web development is a joy these days.

~~~
collyw
Depends who's code you have inherited. Agreed Python is a lot more pleasant
than Javascript, but people still write some horrible stuff.

~~~
FreekNortier
But does Python back-end code scale like Javascript?

~~~
collyw
Are you saying that you can't scale code because it's in Python? And
JavaScript would solve the problem?

You can scale Python apps just fine (though obviously it depends a lot on the
problem as how you go about that)

------
voldacar
Pick up a copy of K&R

------
chrisgoman
Flutter

------
theredbox
SAP,DataFlex,ERP,Cobol,SQL ETL,ColdFusion,PHP are all good options.

