

How to take down an F-117  - TriinT
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htada/articles/20051121.aspx

======
rdtsc
> Zoltan never lost a radar to a HARM missile.

That is very impressive.

If he only had serious computing power, enough cell phone towers, and plenty
of fiber-optic cable, he could have triangulated the position of steal bombers
from the interference patterns.

Also, old Soviet radars operate on longer wavelengths and interestingly enough
are sometimes more effective at detecting stealth aircraft.

~~~
TriinT
_"Old Soviet radars operate on longer wavelengths and interestingly enough are
sometimes more effective at detecting stealth aircraft."_

The fuselage of the F-117 is covered with a top-secret radiation-absorbing
paint. This paint is designed to operate over a certain range of frequencies,
i.e., it's supposed to provide impedance matching over a certain frequency
band (a bit like a thin-film in optics). Hence, if the enemy uses radars
operating at frequencies for which the F-117 is not stealth, then there's a
big problem. Using an old German radar from WW2 the F-117's radar signature is
as big as the one of a non-stealth aircraft like the F/A-18.

BTW, Zoltan (who is a Serb of Hungarian ethnicity, as the name suggests) is
now a baker:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zolt%C3%A1n_Dani>

~~~
gaius
[http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-10-26-serb-
stealth_x...](http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-10-26-serb-
stealth_x.htm)

"Dani said that his unit has had annual reunions on every March 27 since 1999
when a cake in the shape of the F-117 is served."

Nice!

~~~
TriinT
_"The Americans entered the war a bit overconfident. They thought they could
crush us without real resistance. At times, they acted like amateurs," Dani
said, listing some ways the Serbs managed to breach NATO communications
security, including eavesdropping on pilots' conversations with AWACS
surveillance planes. "I personally listened to their pilots' conversations,
learning about their routes and bombing plans," Dani said._

So, the world's best Air Force goes to war and does not use encrypted
communications? This is mind-boggling. To make matters worse, the NATO planes
tended to follow the same routes every night. They were begging to be shot
down.

Last but not least, never underestimate the ferocity and tenacity of the
Serbs. The Ottomans and the Nazis sure learned their lesson.

~~~
miked
I very strongly suspect that these were not American planes at all, but rather
those of certain other NATO countries. Indeed, Zoltan, as quoted, seems to
continually conflate the terms "NATO" and "American".

There was a lot of grumbling among the USAF back then about certain countries
not encrypting their communications. Greece was one of these, although I don't
think they participated in the war (they were big fans of Milosevic and
welcomed him and his wife with huge gatherings at the Thessaloniki airport).
Since Zoltan was not a native speaker of English, I doubt he could distinguish
the accents of pilots from differnet countries, particularly as educated
people in many NATO countries speak excellent English.

What sticks out in my mind most is how happy Zoltan and his buddies are to
celebrate defending the mass murders and rapes of Milosevic's Serbian
Socialist Party. And with a cake in the shape of a plane.

I wonder what flavor of frosting they use.

~~~
code_scrapping
Really, if I shot down a world-feared plane with a 40 year old equipment, I
would be celebrating as well. Don't see any connection to the political regime
there. As TriinT said - I don't think anyone else actually had a F117 to bring
to the fight.

Also, stories about Milosevic's regime are wildly over-shot by the western
propaganda.

Greetings from Serbia

~~~
rdtsc
> Also, stories about Milosevic's regime are wildly over-shot by the western
> propaganda.

I am American and I did a bit of research on the war with Serbia and have to
say that you are correct. We have been fed some very good propaganda.

The most interesting point was how CIA was arming Albanians and encouraging
them to provoke the Serbs. Also most Americans are un-ware (again very good
propanda efforts were made), that Serbian atrocities started after the
bombings. Those attrocities are still atrocities and are in no way justified,
but their portail in the Western media is terribly skewed.

It was very interesting to find out that at the same time as we were supposed
to "prevent atrocities" in Serbia we dramatically increased Turkey's arms
shiptment quota so they can bomb Kurdish villages. It was a quid-pro-quo kind
of deal. Turkey said if you "bomb and use our airspace, then we want to bomb
too." And bomb they did, big time. About 3000 Kurdish villages were destroyed.

~~~
ardit33
As an Albanian, I take offense at what you are saying. Serbian regime has
always been represessive and very similiar to the Apartheid, where 10-15% of
the population (Serbians), rule with the iron fist over the majority.

If you were albanian, you couldn't go to school were you could learn your own
language, you couldn't get a job a state industry (except for crappy jobs),
you couldn't go to college/university where you can study in your own
language. You even needed a visa to get out of Kosova!

BTW, Albanians there have been trying to secede peacefully since 1990, where
they formed their own goverment. They had their own parallel structures,
schools, etc. Slovenia split, got attacked, then Croatia split and endedup
with war, then we all now of the Bosnian massacres.

It seem in all these, the common denominator is Serbia, and Slobodan, using
vapid nationalism for his own purposes.

Kosova was going to end up just like Bosnia, where over 200k people were
massacred if the west didn't intervene. he was doing the exact same tactics
that he did during the previous war.

BTW, the Albanians in Kosova got armed after 1997, when there were trouble in
Albania, and all the army depot got emptied, and you could find a Ak-47 for
less than $100.

There were no american weapons in the region.

~~~
rdtsc
> As an Albanian, I take offense at what you are saying. Serbian regime has
> always been represessive and very similiar to the Apartheid, where 10-15% of
> the population (Serbians), rule with the iron fist over the majority.

I agree with that. I never said that Serbians didn't commit attrocities. What
I a blaming here is the Western propaganda machine (well ok, not Western,
mostly NATO i.e. American) for lying.

Would you deny the facts that Serbian paramilitary forces intensified their
attacks greatly after the bombing started?

I am not saying there we no masacres before, it is just that US knew it would
get worse afterwards, they knew international observers would withdraw, but
they decided to bomb anyway. Then they lied through their teeth when they used
the victims of the retaliatory attacks of the Serbs to justify the bombings.

Yes, it was Serbian army who killed, but US (a suposedly rational country)
knew that Slobodan would react in that way, and they didn't give a fuck. So it
wasn't about humanitarian help, it was about saber rattling and not letting
NATO get embarrassed in the middle of Europe.

It was not too long after USSR fell, European Union was gainging strength and
US and NATO had to show the world who is boss. Yes, as a result they helped
Albanians, and it is hard to play the "what if" game and guess what happened
if they never went it. But they definetly didn't go in because they love
Albanians or they cannot tollerate attrocities in the world. Look at Turkey
and Indonesia -- both US clients that committed attrocities and nobody in US
is bothered by it.

------
gaius
Interesting article about how a few talented individuals on a shoestring
budget can take on established, well-funded competitors.

~~~
pvg
Is it? It's very difficult to tell given the paucity of details. The 'well-
funded, established competitor' was, for instance, able to extract the pilot
within 8 hours. Beside the larger point that it was able to achieve its
military and political objectives.

~~~
jobu
A guy with 200 soldiers and a few $20K missiles brought down $60M worth of US
equipment. In the big picture it had no effect, but most people enjoy the
underdog story.

------
akamaka
Cool article. I've also read that they used parts from ordinary household
microwaves to create fake targets for the US anti-radiation missiles.

Something that's sorely lacking from the article is any information on US
long-term strategy. Did the US air force use the full range of jamming and
deception technology at their disposl, or were they content to lose a few
planes to keep their true capabilities secret?

------
mct
According to <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-117_Nighthawk#Combat_losses>, the
wreckage is now on display at the Museum of Aviation in Belgrade.

------
ivankirigin
I had heard the F-117 bomb bay doors failed to close, causing the stealth to
be lost. That wasn't mentioned here though.

~~~
TriinT
Here's Lt. Col. Dale Zelko (the pilot of the F-117 that was shot down) telling
what happened on the night of March 27th, 1999. It includes actual recordings
of radio conversations (turn up the volume):

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmqLyn4Q15U>

------
mattmaroon
I've read in the past that he didn't actually hit the F-117. That unit has no
radar warning for incoming missile. The pilot saw one coming in, giving him
only a few seconds to react, and he ejected. The missile would not have hit
the plane.

~~~
pvg
That's not quite what the pilot says. This is from an interview -

Lt. Col. Dale Zelko - The first missile went right over the top of me. So
close, actually, that I was surprised it didn’t proximity fuse on me. I could
feel the shock wave of it buffeting the aircraft. As soon as it went over I
quickly re-acquired the second missile visually and when I did, I thought:
“It’s goin’ to run right into me.” And it sure felt like it did.

RFA - So it was a direct hit?

Lt. Col. Dale Zelko - It may have proximity fused, I don’t know absolutely. In
theory, if it didn’t have a warhead in it, if it was just a harpoon or a tree
trunk, would it have gone through my aircraft? I don't know for certain. But
if you look at the photos of the wreckage my entire left wing is missing.
[...] The impact was extremely violent and slammed the aircraft into a left
roll, negative g tuck. I estimate seven, if not more negative Gs which is
enormous.

~~~
mattmaroon
I guess the pilot of the aircraft probably has better information than whoever
wrote whatever I read on the net somewhere years ago.

------
giardini
That's a lot of work to shoot down one or two planes. Was he a good military
leader? If you lose the battle but don't lose a single man then one might
question your willingness to engage the enemy, a necessary unpleasantry of
war.

His men undoubtedly most appreciated him because he kept them out of combat
and alive.

And was the plane detected/shot down because of the defenders' skills or were
there plane malfunctions, etc.?

------
electronslave
This article provides no information about shooting stealth aircraft out of
the sky with surplus Soviet weapons.

I claim false advertising and would like my 30 seconds back.

~~~
run4yourlives
Just get your hands on one of these.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SA-7>

1\. Turn on 2\. Point 3\. Shoot 4\. Run away.

~~~
electronslave
On a related note, I have a special place in my heart for this beast:

<http://www.controller.com/listings/detail.aspx?OHID=1084742>

~~~
run4yourlives
Yuck. Really, you like that thing?

IMO, if you're going Soviet heritage, it begins and ends _al-Fresco_. :-)

~~~
electronslave
Yes, I really like that thing. Performance at cruise on the Туманскиы Р35-500
is 40.21 kN, which puts it at just about Mach speeds. For $45k.

That. That is entertainment.

~~~
run4yourlives
$89K is just the acquisition cost. Try getting a part for it.

You'd be better of with the Albatross, even if it is slower. :)

I share your appreciation of speed though.

~~~
electronslave
That particular listing is $45k in this month's Controller. The nearest Микоян
parts are sold out of a location in Prescott, AZ. There's a type club in Reno
for L-29/L-39s, and it's possible to get parts through a chain there, but MiGs
were mass-produced for third world tinpot dictatorship acquisition, with a
ready supply of back-compatible parts. There's a reason it was/is the most
popular fighter in the world, and that reason is a lot like why Honda is a
popular bike.

Either way, it's academic, mainly because you're not getting a jet trainer, I
only want to get rated for one and neither of us can afford the fuel besides.

~~~
run4yourlives
Somebody has done their homework! ;-)

But yes you're correct... this fantasy is reserved for post acquisition day.

------
onreact-com
I still can't believe the US and NATO have bombarded Serbia which is a country
in the heart of Europe. This just shows that any country can be attacked.

Btw. the reasons for invading Serbia back then have been debunked as
propaganda later on in the same way the Iraq war excuses have been debunked.
There were no Serbian concentration camps etc.

~~~
yangyang
References?

~~~
onreact-com
<http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/6017>

~~~
DanielBMarkham
_The stated purpose of FPIF's work is the maxim that "U.S. security and world
stability are best advanced through a commitment to peace, justice and
environmental protection as well as economic, political, and social rights"_

------
davidw
By flagging it?

------
JacobAldridge
He plastered the F-117 interface with so many ads and links to unrelated
stories that it became so painful to navigate, read, and comprehend that the
pilots sent the plane downward.

