
Show HN: No YC interview, but here's my application - guynamedloren
https://www.penflip.com/loren/yc-application
======
selmnoo

        > [ http://www.lorenburton.com/ ]
        > [...] I posted the site to HN and dropped a "share on twitter" button on 
        > the bottom of the page, racking up tens of thousands of hits and hundreds 
        > of tweets. I was in touch with Joe Gebbia (thanks pg!!) within hours, who 
        > expedited the interview process, and I flew to SF the next morning. Though 
        > I didn't get the job [...]
    

Wait, _what_?! You made
[http://www.lorenburton.com](http://www.lorenburton.com) ... and then didn't
get a job at AirBNB? Goodness gracious. The job was for some frontend stuff,
right? You seem pretty good at making frontend stuff, I can't imagine why you
didn't get it.

~~~
guynamedloren
I have a solid history of failing remarkably. Good lessons learned, though.

To be honest I had no idea what I was getting myself into. I was completely
unprepared and under qualified, and it was my first job interview _ever_. I
bombed it.

~~~
cmbaus
That's crazy that you didn't get the job. Considering AirBNB's growth rate, it
seems they could have taken a risk that someone like yourself would grow into
the position.

~~~
Segmentation
This isn't the 1970s where you could get hired as a novice and trained on the
job. In today's world you need to be a rockstar programmer right out of
college. Training? No start up wants to gamble resources on that.

~~~
sillysaurus2
A person's capacity for learning complex concepts quickly matters more than
their current body of knowledge. Startups are marathons, not sprints.

If Feynman were still alive and wanted to work as a programmer at your
startup, it'd be foolish to turn him away. This was a guy who went from "zero
knowledge of how a space shuttle works" to "knows the design of the Challenger
shuttle in detail, and is able to spot overlooked problems" within a couple
weeks. So he'd certainly have no trouble reaching rockstar programmer status
at your startup within a couple months.

But I'm getting the feeling most startups would turn him down if he wasn't
already a rockstar programmer the day his interview rolls around. That seems a
little nutty.

------
guynamedloren
Thank you for the support, HN. I appreciate it.

To be clear, I have no intention of quitting. I started working on this
project without even thinking about YC as a possibility, driven only by
excitement and the desire to see it exist. In fact, I wasn't going to apply to
YC at all, but changed my mind at the last minute.

Against my better judgement, this little idea has turned into a full time,
18hrs-a-day-7-days-a-week project (with the occasional burnout day), and I
plan to keep working on it is successful or I run out of money.

=]

~~~
ekianjo
Nice of you to share your whole application. How much time did you take to
prepare it, by the way ?

~~~
guynamedloren
Worked on the bulk of it over the course of a day, on and off. Thought about
it for a while before that though (when I was unsure if I was going to apply).
This was my third time applying[1], so I basically have the questions
memorized at this point.

Oh, and I've been recording every thought and idea for the past three months
(some of my lists: [http://grab.by/rKOY](http://grab.by/rKOY)), so filling out
the application was mostly compiling those thoughts into readable form.

[1] Different ideas each time, spanning 3 or 4 years. Funny enough, last year
I got an interview. By that measure, this is a regression :)

~~~
rfnslyr
What app to make that list?

~~~
guynamedloren
it's just the sidebar for textmate2

------
pytrin
It's an overall strong application, but it's missing a few key components -
namely, you're a single founder, and you're a bit early in terms of product
and traction. That might've been enough to get in a few years ago, but
competition and standards have gone up with each new batch (the single founder
thing might've still held you back).

You'll probably have a better chance getting in the next batch, if your
product continues to mature and you have more traction by then. If you're
interested, I wrote about my experiences reviewing about 300 applications for
a different accelerator, 500startups - might be useful
[http://www.techfounder.net/2013/08/22/after-
reviewing-300-st...](http://www.techfounder.net/2013/08/22/after-
reviewing-300-startup-applications-this-is-what-i-learned/)

------
wehadfun
Market this thing as "The easiest way to get your book sold on Amazon"

Figure out the process for people to sell there e-books on amazon and assist
them all the way.

Make sure this tool outputs in what ever format it needs to be to be sold on
Kindle/Nook/what ever.

Offer conversion from Word/Google Doc/ to pen flip

No one knows what Markdown is.

------
iamshs
I like the project a lot.

Why do you think there was no YC interview? Any retrospection? Was it due to
you being the only founder? How strict is the video time limit? The video
sounds not really geared for YC but for general audience. Also, did you have a
friend go through the application? A lot of it sounds like bragging, which is
not bad at all but can be abrasive after a bit.

I like the project a lot, and may you reach heights with it.

~~~
4891
Personal thoughts (trying to channel pg with a huge stack of applications to
get through - I imagine the guy who first applied Naive Bayes to email spam
being quite comfortable making snap decisions over small variables):

This guy seems smart, but not outstanding. Idea is decent but not amazingly
novel. I feel like I've met both this guy and this idea 100 times before.

Solo founder without an amazingly impressive background. The t-shirt website
is really cool - but sadly these days it's not that novel an achievement. "the
t-shirt that I was selling didn't even exist until weeks later" \- come on,
everybody here's read the Lean Startup/4HWW. Again for the "AirBnB' feat - he
wasn't the first person to do something like this.

Again, this isn't a reason to say 'no' \- he's clearly smarter and more
entrepreneurial than 95% of the population - but as a solo founder he needs
more than that, he needs a strong reason to say "yes".

Onto the idea itself. His early traction is pretty impressive - I wasn't sure
if writers would be interested in a tool like this. My main questions are a)
how do you balance power and usability for users who might find version
control hard to understand and b) is there a significant reachable market of
people who would pay for this? Lots of little competitors suggests that this
is an idea many people have had but not necessarily with a significant market.

For YC it makes sense to reject, for loren, the most interesting card in your
hand right now is the feedback from publishers who face this problem and don't
have a good solution - worth focusing on them and building an MVP for their
needs (if you're not already). It might help to partner up with a biz dev guy
who has experience in that industry who could help hack around the slow
procurement processes that are likely common in that industry. See if you can
get some smallish publishing house on board as a demo user.

I note that an existing YC startup "Kivo" is also doing "Git for the masses"
though they're in a more lucrative space (Powerpoint).

------
pearjuice
I am not 100% certain but signal has it that they let one of your competitors
in. And with that I mean one of the handful of other "github for writers"
which were showcasing on HN.

~~~
yesimahuman
Just use that as fuel. Good luck!

------
meritt
Create yourself an [http://angel.co](http://angel.co) profile and solicit
funding & advice on there. The startup world is a tiny bit bigger than YC.

------
rhgraysonii
I just wanted to chime in and say (though possibly off topic) that Loren is an
extraordinary developer. I saw penflip on ShowHN when he first posted it, and
before that when it was simply an idea he threw out here, and immediately
signed up. I began writing a book on Clojure using the platform and I couldn't
be happier. He also is great at engaging users. Just look at the twitter. He's
personally helped me multiple times and even contributed to my project.

So, if you're looking to write. Use penflip. It's awesome. But this really
goes to show YC is a cutthroat place to try and get into. It really is amazing
how much this system pg has started up has inspired. Just think of the
entrepreneurs who have sat and thought of ideas because they know networks
like this exist. It's truly an awesome thing for the world.

------
arturhoo
Thank you very much for sharing this. I found it very helpful as I am also
preparing some applications. One thing that I noticed though, was that the
video you submitted is both well beyond the 1 minute restriction, and you also
spent a lot of time talking about the project and not about yourself ("1
minute video [...] introducing the founders").

When recording our previous video we were very worried about being on the
2-minute mark and straight to the point, spending more time introducing myself
and my colleagues. Do you (and the HN community) think that may have caused
some serious loss of points? Good luck from Brazil!

------
phyalow
I wouldnt have thought the market was huge for this. You mention "Textbooks"
\- most commercial publishing companies would already have internal version
control software, you mention essays? Most students would just use google
docs. Where is the target market? It's neither casual nor a power tool. Thats
probably why your pitch failed, their is adequate substitute products already
in the market place.

~~~
guynamedloren
> _commercial publishing companies would already have internal version control
> software_

You'd be surprised. I've talked to published authors, and here's the inside
scoop: the writing/editing process is often, amazingly, word documents emailed
back and forth with hacked up homebrew version control 'systems' and inline
comments. Believe it or not. I've seen them. And it only gets worse when there
are more editors involved (depending on the content, there can be _many_ ).

O'Reilly is working on a similar idea
([http://atlas.labs.oreilly.com](http://atlas.labs.oreilly.com)), which means
there is at least some demand by commercial publishers for a system like this.
If O'Reilly is working on it, it can't be solved very well.

Anyway, I'm not even targeting commercial publishing, I'm targeting
independent publishing.

> _you mention essays? Most students would just use google docs_

For short essays google docs is fantastic. I don't plan to touch that. But
have you tried writing any kind of long-form group research paper (as in, over
the course of a semester), especially technical, with google docs or dropbox?
I have. It's a nightmare.

> _their is adequate substitute products already in the market place_

Craigslist and couchsurfing.org were _adequate substitutes_ for Airbnb, Yahoo
search was an _adequate substitute_ for Google, and flash drives were an
_adequate substitute_ for Dropbox.

~~~
flylib
well to be fair, your hitting a very crowded market that already has very
established services with large userbases (If Google Docs, Word or Github just
takes the idea then your basically done for) and there is a whole bunch of
startups in the same exact space as you (Atlas, Editorially and Draft), that
might of scared Y Combinator off because chances are one will thrive and the
rest will fizzle out

~~~
shrikrishna
I've seen a lot of PG's interviews where he literally says "Don't worry about
competition". Dropbox released at a time when Google Drive was looming in the
horizon. Still they succeeded. It's the execution that matters.

~~~
flylib
honestly though there was a pretty large gap between the time Dropbox came out
and Google Drive did though, Dropbox was already established and had a large
user base when Google Drive launched

------
ronilan
The application in the application. Upvoted for meta :)

------
pygy_
The Git learning curve is far too steep for non-technically inclined people.

You must write a DropBox-like client.

Example UX:

In the special folder, each folder starting wit a "+" is a repository.

Each user has his own branch. No master. Provide a good online UI for diff
reviews and merging, and a way to locally commit (the how is left as an
exercise to the reader).

You can branch by creating another folder with the same name plus the branch
as a suffix.

    
    
        +foo          // user1 branch of the "foo" repo 
                      // It may be displayed as "user1+foo-bar" in the web UI, 
                      // to avoid confusion.
    
        +foo-bar      // "user1-bar" branch of the "foo" repo
    
        baz/+qux      // the username branch of qux 
                      // "baz" is just a location, and may vary
                      // on a per user basis.
                      // If user2 wants to place it elsewhere, let it be.
    
        baz/+qux-quux // you get the idea...
    

Educate the users to pick unambiguous repo names.

Profit!

~~~
guynamedloren
This seems immensely cumbersome and error-prone. Why not just a client with a
simple GUI (ie buttons)?

~~~
pygy_
Maybe... It looks straightforward to me, but it is off course highly
subjective.

Creating a folder is something that most people can do, and you don't have to
do it often.

Even if what I propose is not your cup of tea, the general idea is that you
have to think of a streamlined workflow for writers.

Another thing I'd add to the above idea would be a local, private branch for
each branch, that would keep every step on save (no need for a commit
message), and then rebase the private branch on its public counterpart on
commit (message required) for sharing with others. The WIP branch may also be
pushed, for backup purpose.

Now that I think of it, the above would better be implemented using tags. Only
share tagged commits with you collaborators.

"CTRL + S" is ingrained in most people's hands, and having an automatic time
machine would be a nice addition.

I'm just throwing out ideas, hopefully, you'll like some :-)

------
pani5ue
An early pivot maybe?

Have you considered a on-premise hosted version for the enterprise?

For mundane and painful things like requirements documents. User manuals ,
documentation etc.

Certainly not as cool as going consumer but enterprises have way more money
than hungry writers looking for feedback.

Let me know when you're ready and/or interested and I can schedule a demo at
my company. I work for a large semiconductor company.

~~~
guynamedloren
Not a pivot, this is a planned subset of penflip. Just realized this was one
of the redacted bits from the application I posted here.

> _For mundane and painful things like requirements documents. User manuals ,
> documentation etc._

Yes. This is huge. Actually, lots of this happening on the platform already.

Not quite ready for a demo, but I'd love to chat about this. lorendburton [at]
gmail

~~~
pani5ue
Cool. I'll send you an email

Enterprise is often ignored by cutting edge technologies. Sounds like it could
somehow eat into sharepoint confluence enterprise wikis etc. market share. of
course harder to demonstrate traction but you should consider (amount of money
you make + amount of money a large existing enterprise solution loses) as what
makes your company valuable.

------
uxwtf
Seems like collaborative editing is not hot.

No YC interview neither, and somehow related:

[http://sharepad.co](http://sharepad.co)

~~~
akanet
YC has invested in many real-time collaborative editing tools. Most similar to
sharepad: [https://hackpad.com/](https://hackpad.com/)

~~~
uxwtf
Thanks akanet.

As "The idea doesn't matter much; it will change anyway", we mostly see
SharePad as a foundation to build something awesome.

------
justhw
Application Intros, might be useful.
[https://www.youtube.com/results?filters=month&search_query=y...](https://www.youtube.com/results?filters=month&search_query=y+combinator+application&lclk=month)

------
sjtgraham
Looks very nice. Most likely the biggest problem is the single founder aspect,
I'm in the same boat as you there.

I have a feeling that when you select "yes" on that red flag option, your
application goes straight into PG's queue.

Keep at it, my man.

~~~
Segmentation
Single founder applications are probably a red flag that the founder isn't
good at networking, and YC is all about networking. They probably fear you'd
be reclusive at YC.

------
franciscoprat
Thanks for sharing your application. It takes guts to be open about this kind
of stuff.

One thing I didn't see in the application was what your distribution strategy
will be. I understand the collaborative nature of GitHub for Writers, but are
there established channels that you could take advantage of to help your
customer acquisition. Publishers are one group but perhaps they don't closely
manage writers in that way. Perhaps advertising firms or print media might be
a way to go. A couple big enterprise customers might be good validation for
your business.

~~~
guynamedloren
> _but are there established channels that you could take advantage of to help
> your customer acquisition_

Yes, absolutely. See "How will you get users" question. I listed 6 different
growth/distribution strategies, but redacted 3 of them for the purpose of
sharing publicly. They are not necessarily groundbreaking, but I'd rather not
just hand over my growth strategies to competitors.

------
kriro
I wasn't aware LOC is used as a heuristic of sorts at YC.

Good luck Loren. It seems like you're not really targeting scientists and are
willing to concede that to the Harvard folks. As someone that was recently
involved in sending tex-files back and forth I can assure you there's a need
there (and probably some money from volume licensing, univerities tend to buy
this stuff with "wtf-don't care" money if you get a champion)

Edit: You could also sell it to conferences as SaaS. Call for papers -> use
our amazing tool to write it link.

------
Jon_Levin
This seems like it would be an immensely useful tool for government. In many
regulations/rules scenarios, there are multiple agencies or offices (spread
widely across the bureaucracy) vying for impact on a the in-progress document
and the person or entity initially in control often loses ownership due to
political, bureaucratic, funding or other reasons.

A product like this would significantly improve this process and provide the
kind of historical record needed create transparency in lawmaking. Just a
thought.

~~~
guynamedloren
Do you work in government or know somebody that does? If so, let's chat.

~~~
Jon_Levin
I spent the last 3.5 years running a company that provides professional
education to government contractors and was a government contractor myself.
Before that, I worked in government for a couple years. Shoot me an email -
happy to discuss.

------
karlhwhite
Awesome product! Don't give up hope, I can really see it doing well. One of
those links I click and instantly see the appeal and benefits! Great job!

------
PMan74
I can't remember where I saw it before but ever since then any instance grates
on me: describing your product in terms of other product. \- GitHub for
writers \- Facebook for Pearl Divers \- LinkedIn for Horse Whisperers \-
Twitter for Ornithologists

Merits of the idea aside it really turns me off, smacks of a lack of
creativity, a lazy route to explaining your product benefits.

Very superficial I know, it may be just me.

~~~
guynamedloren
This is actually recommended by YC:

"One good trick for describing a project concisely is to explain it as a
variant of something the audience already knows. It's like Wikipedia, but
within an organization. It's like an answering service, but for email. It's
eBay for jobs. This form of description is wonderfully efficient. Don't worry
that it will make your idea seem "derivative." Some of the best ideas in
history began by sticking together two existing ideas no one realized could be
combined."

[http://ycombinator.com/howtoapply.html](http://ycombinator.com/howtoapply.html)

~~~
PMan74
Good to know where it comes from. I still hate it I have to say, probably for
the reason they mention i.e. it comes off as derivative. But yet I don't argue
that some of the best ideas in history began by sticking together two existing
ideas. I'm conflicted.

------
tinbad
Love the idea, been using iA Writer for MAC to work on my book. But since I'm
co-authoring with somebody else this would be the best tool to use. Too bad
you didn't get into YC (just like me and many others), but you got a user (an
possibly many more after getting on HN)!

Just apply again next time when you're able to show some traction!

------
papasmrf
I don't know if this idea will be successful or not, but as a long time lurker
here at HN I think the way you are putting yourself out there is fantastic.
Keep up the good work and see this thing through.

------
rmena123
I think one founder is an automatic no at the amount of applications they have
now, even if they say it maybe ok. I'd just check off all applications with
one person and not have to worry about them.

~~~
praxeologist
It isn't an automatic no. If it was, they would just say that. It is probably
an easy no and gets passed by quickly without a really compelling
idea/product, some revenue already, past success and you don't really need YC,
etc.

------
hmsimha
I think penflip is a great idea, and if you have a usable product already you
might want to consider marketing it to people attempting NaNoWriMo

~~~
guynamedloren
Already on it! A small barrier is the $6000 donation to become an official
NaNoWriMo sponsor, but I'm managing to get some NaNoWriMo writers on the
platform through other means.

~~~
pani5ue
See if you can scrape emails off public library websites They often advertise
book writing month on a board and might happily add the web link.

------
uladzislau
What caught my eye - number of n/a answers. It shows a certain level of
ignorance on the applicant part. If these questions are included, they are
included for a reason.

Second, single founder is a not a good fit for YC - everyone knows about it.
Not addressing this issue wasn't very smart.

The Airbnb stunt is another proof that Loren wants more to stand out than to
fit in.

~~~
guynamedloren
Ignorance? Not at all. YC has thousands of applications to read in a short
period of time. If a question says "If you're already incorporated, when were
you?" and I go on to explain why I'm not incorporated, I'm wasting their time.
N/A means "I'm not incorporated, this does not apply to me." Go and read the
questions that have N/A as answers. They simply do not apply.

------
wellboy
Github for writers is big though dude. Get some traction and everybody will
lick your toes!

------
sheikhimran01
This is an Great idea man! I would like meet up and get to know more about
your project.

------
salilpa
don't lose heart. YC is not the end of the road for you. keep on trying.

------
intelliot
Penflip is similar to a project I'm working on. We should talk.

~~~
guynamedloren
Sure, shoot me an email (see profile for email)

------
PanMan
Thanks for sharing this, interesting. However, why don't you mention Google
Docs and Dropbox as competitors? Google docs already does this, and Dropbox
seems to be clearly heading this way.

~~~
erre
He does, right there in the section called "Who are your competitors?":

"Indirect competitors: (...), Google Docs, Dropbox, (...)"

Edit: BTW, he also mentions them in the video linked to near the top of the
application.

------
brickcap
Really like the editor of the penflip.

------
tjosten
BTW: I really like the clean design.

------
smallegan
Are you still seeking funding?

~~~
guynamedloren
Not actively, right now, but possibly in the future. Going to bootstrap and
possibly attempt to monetize soon.

I wasn't even looking to YC for the funding, really, mostly just the network
and mentorship.

------
dear
Getting into YC shouldn't be your goal. Build your own business is.

------
rmena123
What's up with the n/a on your application?

~~~
guynamedloren
certain questions were not applicable - no cofounder, not incorporated yet, no
other incubators, etc.

------
jamescraft34
Good work man!

