
Copper is key in burning fat - upen
http://sciencebulletin.org/archives/1906.html
======
farresito
Unless you suffer from a disease that prevents the absorption of copper, I
would be very careful with supplements or copper-heavy diets. I made the
mistake of (accidentally) following a diet that had a high copper content and
would definitely not recommend having a copper overload. Two years later and
I'm far from done from the recovery. Once copper goes up, it's hard to reduce
it because it weakens the adrenals and impairs digestion and you end up with a
chicken egg situation where you need the adrenals to reduce copper and you
can't because you don't have them. Just follow a normal diet. The chances of
having low copper levels are small, while the opposite happens more often.

~~~
msandford
From the article: "According to the Food and Nutrition Board of the Institute
of Medicine, an adult’s estimated average dietary requirement for copper is
about 700 micrograms per day. The Food and Nutrition Board also found that
only 25 percent of the U.S. population gets enough copper daily."

Not to put down your experience or the difficulty of your recovery, but the
notion that "copper deficiency is rare" doesn't seem to be supported by the
article. Have you got better sources? What are they?

Being clinically deficient in something (scurvy, say, for vitamin C) versus
mildly deficient are two entirely different things.

~~~
gregable
Looking at a bottle of Centrum Mens Multivitamins, they list that it includes
900 mcg of copper and that this is only 45% of the recommended daily value
(presumably because too much is bad and folks get some in their diet already).
However, this also suggests that the recommended daily value is 2000 mcg,
rather than the 700 mcg listed in the article.

~~~
JonathonW
The FDA's Reference Daily Intake (on which nutrition labeling is based) is 2mg
[1]. That number differs from the National Academies number [2] (that's the
700 μg referenced in the article, for non-pregnant, non-lactating adults);
why, I don't know.

[1]
[http://www.fda.gov/Food/GuidanceRegulation/GuidanceDocuments...](http://www.fda.gov/Food/GuidanceRegulation/GuidanceDocumentsRegulatoryInformation/LabelingNutrition/ucm064928.htm)

[2]
[http://www.nationalacademies.org/hmd/~/media/Files/Activity%...](http://www.nationalacademies.org/hmd/~/media/Files/Activity%20Files/Nutrition/DRI-
Tables/1_%20EARs.pdf?la=en)

~~~
wahern
Probably because the methodologies used to determine the proper intake are
very rudimentary. For example, for some nutrients the RDA is whatever it takes
to start seeing it excreted in urine. The analogy would be like a cup
overflowing. How you get from that to recommending the "proper" intake
requires making a significant number of unproven assumptions.

So there's usually quite significant room for disagreement, especially as new
evidence ever so slowly emerges. It doesn't help that trying to pinpoint a
single number for each specific nutrient is a rather arbitrary goal.

Which is why the "balanced diet" approaches makes the most sense as a general
recommendation--it's an affirmation not of what we do know, but of what we
don't know.

~~~
jrapdx3
It's true, determining a) what's _required_ to prevent deficiency and b)
what's _optimum_ for health are subject to interpretation of available (and
often incomplete) data, hence lots of controversy.

I'm familiar with these issues surrounding vitamin D. There's no doubt it's
essential, but the optimum intake and blood levels remains uncertain.
Nonetheless no shortage of opinions are out there despite the uncertainty of
findings backing up any particular stance.

IMO the problem in pinning it down is the wide range of effects of nutritional
factors like vitamin D. Body systems are in constant flux, and need for
vitamin D and optimum amount in circulation varies accordingly. The situation
with trace minerals is somewhat similar when the mineral is an essential
cofactor in specific enzyme-mediated processes--effects of low intake of the
mineral element may not be easily observed from a whole-body perspective, and
attribution of particular body manifestations to a mineral deficiency can be
hard to establish.

I think that's the case with copper and other trace minerals and I don't
expect the questions to be unequivocally resolved any time soon. Your idea of
a "balanced", intake of diverse good quality foods is the only sensible
recommendation we can make, especially since there's quite a bit of research
showing merit of that approach.

------
Isamu
At last, an argument I can use to justify buying a copper bowl to whip egg
whites for desserts.

Doesn't have to be a very good argument, just has to succeed.

~~~
sosuke
I have the same compulsion to buy certain materials for certain tasks in the
kitchen. When I was a child I just had to eat beans from a wooden bowl with a
wooden spoon because of The Good the Bad and the Ugly.

Why copper for eggs?

~~~
hourislate
Tuco? Blondie? or Angel Eyes?

~~~
Declanomous
I think it's one of the other characters. Tuco's brother maybe?

~~~
sosuke
It was "The Bad" whomever that was at the beginning eating from the mans table
whom he was sent to kill.

~~~
zdean
That's Angel Eyes (Lee Van Cleef)

------
glibgil
> Copper is not something the body can make, so we need to get it through our
> diet

Does the body make any elements?

~~~
smaddox
Obviously the answer is no, but the average reader likely doesn't know which
minerals are elements and which are molecules. The statement seems redundant
to you and I, but it is a key fact and likely not obvious to anyone with
minimal chemistry/physics training.

~~~
miles
_" The statement seems redundant to you and I"_

As long as we're on the subject of pedantry, and with your kind leave, may I
humbly point out that the above statement should read "The statement seems
redundant to you and me"? If in doubt, drop the words "you and" then see how
the sentence works:

"The statement seems redundant to I"

vs

"The statement seems redundant to me"

[http://www.betterwritingskills.com/tip-w026.html](http://www.betterwritingskills.com/tip-w026.html)

~~~
ClassyJacket
There are no hard rules with grammar. Just conventions. If we understood what
the person meant, then they succeeded at their goal of communicating.

~~~
kakarot
except he was specifically being pedantic. You can't combat pedantic criticism
with "But grammar is just conventions". Grammatical pedantry deals with
exactly those conventional nuances.

~~~
pessimizer
It wasn't pedantry about grammar, it was pedantry about meaning. If a Russian
with bad English grammar tried to correct your code, would you try to correct
his use of "was" rather than "were"?

~~~
kakarot
No, it was grammar. Because the grammar shaped the meaning. But when you are
dealing specifically with meaning or context and not formal conventions, it is
considered a semantic, not pedantic. I don't generally correct people's
grammar mistakes these days because I myself have laxed quite a bit in favor
of "progressing" my language a bit. But I especially wouldn't correct a
foreigner just because, only if I felt they would be receptive to the advice.
I would certainly appreciate the same when using a language I'm not familiar
with.

~~~
pessimizer
It was simply a factually incorrect statement. It was about grammar as much as
"fish ride bicycles" is about grammar.

edit: It actually wasn't incorrect at all... I'd lost track of the original
statement:) It was just something that would be obvious to people who
understood basic chemistry. Either way, it wouldn't be a question of grammar
(any more than "some fish swim in the ocean.")

------
vermontdevil
Food rich in copper:

Cooked Oyster

Leafy greens (kale, spinach, etc)

Mushrooms

Seeds (flax, sesame, etc)

Nuts (pistachio, cashew, walnuts, etc)

Avocado

Liver

I'm sure there's more.

~~~
imgabe
Cooked oysters but not raw ones? Does the cooking impart copper somehow?

~~~
metamet
Cooking foods actually decreases the bioavailability of a lot of minerals,
copper included.

Another reason oysters are great is because of their zinc content, which helps
ensure your copper-zinc ratio is in balance and you don't overdo it on copper.

~~~
Chris2048
> Cooking foods actually decreases the bioavailability of a lot of minerals,
> copper included.

Don't you mean "copper not included" if cooked oyster imparts more copper?

~~~
metamet
I don't believe that cooking oysters imparts more copper.

~~~
Chris2048
Or the bio-availability of it. Since "raw oysters" is listed, but not cooked,
it implies that the copper in oysters becomes non-bio-available as a result of
cooking?

------
pacaro
Anecdote: be careful with metal supplements. A doctor suggested that I try a
larger than usual dose of Zinc (with Copper) to see if it would help with my
psoriasis. Worst headache of my life, metallic taste in my mouth, felt like
death for about 12 hours

~~~
rosbrith
Despite the unwanted effects, did it make any difference to the psoriasis?

~~~
droopyEyelids
The headache and death feeling greatly reduces awareness of psoriasis

~~~
infogulch
Ah, the good old "chop off your leg so your foot will stop hurting" method
that my dad would propose when I was a kid.

------
cryptozeus
Interesting...100 or more years back, indians would regularly eat and drink
from copper dishes & cups

[http://www.sanskritimagazine.com/ayurveda/why-copper-was-
use...](http://www.sanskritimagazine.com/ayurveda/why-copper-was-used-by-our-
ancestors/)

~~~
jdmichal
Reminds me of the Physician and the Priest:

[http://www.jhuger.com/the-physician-and-the-
priest](http://www.jhuger.com/the-physician-and-the-priest)

~~~
LordKano
This particular story is new to me but when I was in high school, a teacher
once presented me with the idea that this is the origin of many if not most
cultural/religious taboos.

It made perfect sense to me.

Don't eat pork. They didn't know about trichinosis but they did notice that
people who ate pork got sick and sometimes died.

Don't sleep around. They didn't understand what syphilis was but they did
notice that people who had lots of indiscriminate sex got sick and sometimes
died.

~~~
Shorel
Wasn't syphilis acquired from the Americas?

But yeah, there are many other illnesses that can explain sex taboos.

~~~
LordKano
I don't think it has been definitively proven but it could have been.

------
proee
Beware that TOO much copper is toxic on the body and causes ill effects.

[http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2017/01/10/copper-
toxicity/](http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2017/01/10/copper-toxicity/)

------
ucaetano
Now I finally have some good use for that old pile of twisted-pair copper
cable sitting at home!

------
chrismealy
The catch with the green revolution in agriculture is that many foods have
fewer minerals than they used to. Basically plants have been bred to grow fast
and have more mass (more carbs than minerals).

~~~
bkmartin
Less nutritious than before does not mean that the food is not good for you.
You say "more carbs than minerals"... I'd argue that plants have ALWAYS been
more "carbs" than minerals, otherwise we would be eating rocks. Why put
"carbs" in quotes? Because that is a misnomer for the "more mass" argument you
make. Plants are made of many different substances that include carbs but also
a large amount of fiber. This is highly variable based on the plant.

Should we be doing more to promote restorative practices for soil in
agriculture? Yes! Are fresh fruits and vegetables not good for you just
because their mineral levels are lower than historical numbers? No! Eat
colorful foods from people who practice the farming practices that you deem
important. The market will force a movement in practices on a larger scale.

Eat well :)

~~~
seanp2k2
It sounds silly, but if you don't like typical American salads, try picking up
some leafy greens from Asian supermarkets. I've found that I'm really into
Tong Ho (chrysanthemum coronarium), green onion salad with a bit of soy sauce,
Bok Choy with lots of garlic, and raw spinach + arugula....but I can't stand
iceberg lettuce or really any vinegar on vegetables like almost all American
restaurants have on menus. Because of my tastes, it wasn't until I had an
Asian girlfriend with a great cook of a mother that I actually started
enjoying veggies. Hopefully this helps at least one other person out there who
has had bad taste experiences with salads and doesn't eat enough greens
because of it.

Whole Foods and other places also have some quite good-tasting
protein/smoothie powders which have lots of green content. I've also found
that aside from not minding the taste of wheat grass (when mixed with citrus
flavors), it makes me feel noticeably "fresh" and "well" for a few hours after
ingestion. Try it!

~~~
vram22
Interesting, thanks for the info about the greens. Had not heard of Tong Ho.
Just googled it and it seems the scientific name has changed, also the article
has some pros and cons of it.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glebionis_coronaria](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glebionis_coronaria)

The wheat grass symptoms you had might be due to it having vitamin E - just
guessing here.

------
lutusp
This study suggests that dietary copper may help convert fat to energy. A
while ago copper's antiseptic role in hospital environments was revealed and
may result in the wholesale replacement of stainless steel with copper and
bronze surfaces such as doorknobs and tabletops (stainless steel became
ubiquitous in hospitals based on its appearance, resistance to rust, and ease
of cleaning).

It's my hope that these new findings didn't result from a sneaky plot by a
mining conglomerate to increase demand for copper.

~~~
_coldfire
Millions of tonnes of copper are mined every year. Dietary copper is on the
scale of micrograms.

Your conspiracy has a problem of many magnitudes.

~~~
lutusp
> Millions of tonnes of copper are mined every year. Dietary copper is on the
> scale of micrograms.

Imagine every stainless steel surface in every hospital being replaced with
copper or bronze (which seems likely over time). Imagine that this
subsequently becomes fashionable in private homes for the same reason.

I have a yacht and its anti-fouling paint has a high percentage of copper, for
the same reason that copper seems effective in a hospital operating theater
(it's pretty toxic). Imagine that a copper mine operator wants more public
acceptance for copper as an everyday material. Both these recent developments
produce that outcome, even given the fact that dietary copper is in reality a
microscopic volume of the material. For the latter, the effect is more
psychological than practical.

I emphasize that I'm not taking this hidden-agenda idea seriously, it's just
something to think about.

------
vram22
In India many people use copper vessels (jugs, pots) to store drinking water
and then drink it from them. Supposedly for some health benefits. Don't know
if there really are any or not.

Anecdotally, though, I liked to wear a copper ring, and used to imagine as a
kid that it keeps the body cool in summer (due to its high conductivity :) [1]

[1] of heat, but must have assumed here that good electrical conductivity
implies good heat conductivity, don't think I checked (kid).

~~~
AlphaSite
Copper kills bacteria.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligodynamic_effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligodynamic_effect)

~~~
vram22
Thanks, and to the sibling commenter too. Didn't know this.

------
millettjon
Chris Masterjohn just releases a podcast on managing copper status.
[https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2017/02/03/manage-copper-
stat...](https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2017/02/03/manage-copper-status/)

I haven't listened to this one yet but typically his stuff is top notch.

------
evo_9
[https://www.healthaliciousness.com/articles/high-copper-
food...](https://www.healthaliciousness.com/articles/high-copper-foods.php)

~~~
erikpukinskis
Yeah, so as usual... Eat kale. Eat beans.

~~~
matwood
Someone deleted the kale taste bad post, so I'll put this here:

Are you making a joke that kale does not taste good? I cook kale the same way
I quick cook collards. Sauté garlic in some olive oil until fragrant, then add
kale (torn off the big stems), a cup of water, salt and pepper. Cook down the
water while stirring occasionally. It's easy and tasty. Instead of garlic and
OO, you can always use a chopped up piece of bacon as the base.

~~~
steanne
what kale tastes like to you is not necessarily what kale tastes like to
everyone.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supertaster#Specific_food_sens...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supertaster#Specific_food_sensitivities)

~~~
matwood
I thought this was a given. Not everyone likes the same thing, but many people
have simply never tried something or default to green, leafy vegetables taste
bad.

~~~
seanp2k2
Interesting. For me, the insistence of American cooking to douse all veggies
in vinegar concoctions long turned me away from delicious raw leafy greens.
Now I love spinach, arugula, mustard greens (which have no relation taste-wise
to mustard, but whose name prevented me from trying them), microgreens,
sprouts, Tong Ho, bok choy, and a few others :)

~~~
matwood
I'm also not a fan of the douse leafy greens in vinegar so common in the
south. With the right proportions it can be okay, but typically people put too
much vinegar.

------
wspeirs
Any know the difference between Copper Glycinate and Copper Citrate?

~~~
joecool1029
Likely higher bioavailability on the glycinate. Realistically shouldn't matter
too much unless you have an absorption issue.

Albeit, I am not as versed in copper supplements as I am in magnesium
supplements.

------
oval-atom
A healthy human body is maintained by thousands of biochemical processes and
reactions in equilibrium that have evolved over time. As we age, we expose our
body to processes that disrupt the equilibrium of these biochemical processes
and reactions. The general term used is inflammation. These inflammatory
processes can be what or what we don't eat, our environment, and our physical
activity or lack of. And when I say "healthy human body" I am excluding
genetic influences. But I would recommend that before taking any supplement
because you just feel that it may solve a physiological problem I would do the
following first: 1\. Take a month and log all that you eat or consume. 2\. See
your doctor and order a complete blood workup to include all your vitamin and
mineral levels. 3\. Do some research on the below topics:

Antinutrients Anti-inflammatory diets Minerals:
[http://themedicalbiochemistrypage.org/minerals.php](http://themedicalbiochemistrypage.org/minerals.php)
Vitamins: Water and Fat Soluble -
[http://themedicalbiochemistrypage.org/vitamins.php](http://themedicalbiochemistrypage.org/vitamins.php)
Essential Fatty Acids -
[http://qualitycounts.com/fpfats.htm](http://qualitycounts.com/fpfats.htm)

Equilibrium of biochemical processes can be easily upset by upsetting other
biochemical processes.

So increasing the concentration of one mineral may adversly affect the
concentration of another mineral and just may adversly affect another
biochemical process.

I take over 80 different supplements (vitamins, minerals, amino acids,
enzymes, etc..). And yes, I have been told I am crazy.

While it took me several years to get to this point, I am not alone. And I was
kind of surprised when I found this out, because I started this effort doing
my own research. It did help since I have a Chemistry degree and took a lot of
biochemistry in college. Eventually retired as an EE.

Search: Ray Kurzweil -
[http://www.lifeextension.com/Magazine/2005/9/report_kurzweil...](http://www.lifeextension.com/Magazine/2005/9/report_kurzweil/Page-01?p=1)
Rick Rosner - [http://www.lef.org/Magazine/2015/4/Rick-
Rosner/Page-01?p=1](http://www.lef.org/Magazine/2015/4/Rick-
Rosner/Page-01?p=1)

I don't always agree with some of their points and I don't go to the extreme
that they go, it was a pleasant surprise.

I have been told, "just eat a balanced diet!".

There are several reasons that just does not work for me. 1\. For minerals,
agricultural processes do not deliberately replenish all minerals in the soil.
2\. As we get older, our GI system becomes more inefficient in extracting the
minerals and vitamins the body requires. 3\. Exposure to environmental sources
of inflammation cannot be easily avoided. 4\. Without a gallbladder, my
digestive system has been compromised. 5\. Medications I have to take from
time to time also have an effect.

And the Super Bowl is around the corner, search on "Tom Brady Diet"

Do note, you will find counter info for everything. It is up to you to decide.

One thing for sure, get a blood test! Consuming something just because it is
over the counter doesn't make it a wise idea.

~~~
majkinetor
In short, you practice orthomolecular medicine.

Linus Pauling coined the term because the adverse effects are almost next to
non existent even in very huge doses compared to almost all of allopathic
medicines (except nootropics). I am taking bunch of nutrients in megadozes for
last 7 years, some in what others consider extrimes like A (10-100K
IU),D(5-50k IU),C(5-100g),B(50-500mg) etc, some occasiionaly and some every
day like C. I never had any side effect worth mentioning. Its VERY hard to
poison yourself with vitamins and minerals, you really have to take ludicrous
amounts. Iron is probably the only one that man do not have to supplement
because it accumulates without blood donations.

I typically scan medical journals for adverse effects before experimenting and
devise the dose based on what was used in studies and depending on what I try
to achieve.

The only thing that got me was 1+ mg of iodine as Lugols solution, but it
seems that I am somewhat alergic to it or it starts up some strange metabolic
process in me. That does is very safe even in toddlers.

Talking about copper, I wonder why would anyone supplement it - its certain
that copper water pipes continually leak copper in the tap water. Unless you
drink water from the bottle, chances are probably low that you have copper
deficiency. There are many other more probable things that affect lypolisys
like Vitamin C, D, Chromium, Choline, Carnitnine, Iodine, Mg, Retynol, K2,
CoQ10. I would bet on any of them prior to copper. For each there is known
biochemical pathway that influences lipolysis and all people are typically
deficient in almost all of them.

~~~
omarchowdhury
How do you determine what dose you should take (of the lipolysis influencing
ingredients you mentioned)?

~~~
majkinetor
Because they are generally all very safe I usually take median dose used in
the studies. At worst, I get no effect and loose some money for the
information.

If your micronutrient status is adequate you have no effect. Since its way
more expensive or impossible to do status tests then to actually buy the
nutrient and give it a chance, I opt for the latter.

The dose also depends on technology used and other potential bioactivators.
LET technology, for example is very effective. Pipperine will make a dose
lower of anything in general case. Synergy counts too.

------
liveoneggs
start eating more liver!

~~~
midgetjones
But what about the eggs?

~~~
vram22
Why worry? They'll live on the liver.

Edit: Great fleas ...

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_infinitum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_infinitum)

Double-edit:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Siphonaptera](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Siphonaptera)

------
pinaceae
I use a copper mug for my Moscow Mules, nice. :)

------
virtuexru
Gonna start eating pennies for breakfast.

~~~
LyndsySimon
Better go with pre-1983 pennies. Pennies minted 1983 to present are 97.5%
zinc.

~~~
gumby
The article mentions that one risk of taking copper supplements is setting
your zinc ratio out of whack. This is a clear example of the government taking
positive action on public health.

~~~
epimetheus
The reverse is also true, if you take too much Zinc, you'll get deficient in
Copper.

------
dsego
Great, unless you have Wilson's.

~~~
LarryMade2
Yeah, I was thinking about that, runs in my family. So far no sign in me but
one of my brothers had it pretty bad (got new liver - no a prob anymore)

------
fosco
Obligatory: [https://xkcd.com/1744/](https://xkcd.com/1744/)

