

Pantelligent: Intelligent Pan – Cook Everything Perfectly (YC W13) - compumike
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/hevans/pantelligent-intelligent-pan-cook-everything-perfe

======
ska
An interesting idea, but a couple of things jumped out at me immediately.

1) Keeping track of surface and/or pan temperature is useful but it isn't
nearly as useful as keeping track of internal temperature[1]. I'm not sure
what the technical challenges are, but having one or more small wireless
temperature probes would be far more useful to me than one limited use pan,
which leads to ...

2) I cook a lot, but I have very few uses for a non-stick frypan, and very few
uses for any pan that isn't oven safe[2]. That and the short useful lifetime
of any non-stick pan (at any price range) make me wonder about this.

[1] Otherwise you're just hoping your inputs are roughly equivalent to the
last time you did this, or what the recipe assumes.

[2] i'm making an assumption here, but couldn't find any info

~~~
compumike
Keeping track of cooking surface time and temperature, plus knowing about what
you're cooking (i.e. salmon fillet, 3/4" thick), lets us get a surprisingly
good model of the internal conditions and adjust dynamically. The result is
really quite delicious! We've done a lot of testing and development, and if
you're following the interactive recipes in good faith, you'll get a good
result when you cook. (Think about how much information even a trained chef
has, using intuition about the right heat level and cooking time -- we can do
better with quantitative temperature and time data, even though we can't
actually poke the piece of salmon.)

Pantelligent is not oven safe -- today's electronics would not operate at oven
temperatures. Having temperature regulation avoids overcooking the nonstick
coatings, which prolongs their life.

(We just launched the Kickstarter campaign, and are in the middle of posting
some FAQs right now!)

~~~
ska
You hit on the key problem, which is: what if my salmon steak is 1 1/2 "
thick? Or 1/2" ? Are you going to have a selection grid? What if I just took
it out of a fridge? What if its starting at room temperature? A bit dry?

One of the first things you need to learn to improve as a cook (professional
or just out of interest) is to control temperature. And that temperature isn't
what it says on a dial, it's what's happening at the interface of your food
and the heat. But pan temperature is only one variable, and others are at
least as important.

At the end of the day, you are never cooking "a salmon steak", you are cooking
_this_ salmon steak, with all it's characteristics, on _this_ equipment. Part
of getting better as a cook is to be aware of this and always adjust what you
are doing, not to your expectations of what should happen (e.g. any recipe, or
what happened last time, or ...) but to what is actually happening. To that
degree having a live readout of a particular pan could be useful, but not
earth shattering.

Anyway, I don't think it's a terrible idea and may well help people who are
afraid to diverge from a recipe. Heck, it may be very useful to some people
who are very experienced, I don't know.

My initial reaction though is the form factor is too constraining, and the
benefit too marginal, for me to get excited about it.

~~~
compumike
Hi ska, we understand. As engineers and chefs, we were also skeptical and
curious as to how well surface temperature feedback would effect the pan
cooking. So we built it, and the answer is that it worked far better than we
imagined! Like, it's really, really tasty. Within a reasonable range of
inputs, we found that the "other [variables] are at least as important" was an
incorrect assumption. Surface temperature and time, when controlled via an
adaptive recipe, really is the biggest upgrade you can make to your cooking.

For salmon in particular: yes there's an input selection of thickness. For
steak, there's doneness and thickness.

~~~
ska
Interesting.

Re: "other [variables] are at least as important" being an incorrect
assumption...

I can see this being possible for some foods (your salmon steak being a good
example, given you include thickness, but you'd need different models for many
different types of fish), but really unlikely for others. How onion behaves,
for example, is pretty regional and highly dependent on type. For many
vegetables water content is highly variable and very important to how it
cooks, but I feel like i've got better proxys for what is going on than
cooking surface temperature would be....

~~~
SoftwareMaven
This isn't targetted at the experienced cook. It's targetted at somebody with
limited experience cooking who wants a little more probability at success. My
internal geek is fascinated by it, and I'd buy it if I had the spare cash
lying around, but my internal cook sees its applicability limited (though
perfect salmon every time is tempting; I'm not that great with fish).

It's unfortunate that the generational tradition of teaching cooking really
fell apart in the last 40-50 years. My generation was the first who had to
completely teach themselves.

------
qsymmachus
This is pretty neat, but why not just learn how to cook?

This is the kind of idea only Silicon Valley could cook up – if you've eaten
nothing but catered meals your young adult life, you have no idea how to cook
eggs without burning them. The solution is obviously a bluetooth enabled pan.

~~~
icebraining
We'll see. As a citizen of a relatively poor European countries which owns a
Thermomix for every 12 households, I wouldn't bet on it being a flop.

~~~
hackuser
What is a Thermomix? Wikipedia gives me the idea that it's a multifunction
cooking machine, but leaves a lot of holes.

~~~
icebraining
That's essentially it. It's essentially a machine that combines a blender,
mixer, steamer, slow cooker, a scale and a timer.

~~~
hackuser
Do you just drop in the raw ingredients and it processes them through those
devices in serial? It is just all of those devices on one machine, no
different than buying them separately? Thanks for explaining!

~~~
icebraining
It can combine functions, e.g. mix while cooking. But as far as I know, it
can't do anything that you couldn't do with separate devices (like using a
hand mixer and a pot), it's just more convenient.

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borski
I cook a ton, and I thought I would hate this. Having tested Pantelligent from
very early alpha, though, I was really surprised.

I thought it would be "cook-by-number" and for many people that's exactly what
they need and exactly what they want.

For me, "cook-by-number" would drive me crazy, since I like being in the
driver's seat, so to speak. Over time, learning the temperatures of my pan and
being able to have instant access to it in 'Freestyle' mode blew me away. No
more infrared thermometers == mind blown.

Also, the record feature is stupendous - I finally get that dish /just right/,
and I never have to worry about it again. I have recorded the temperatures,
the times, and everything so I can repeat it the same way every time.

Seriously though, try the salmon. It will blow you away. You've never had
salmon this good.

~~~
kolev
This is a gross oversimplification of quality cooking. For amateurs, this
might be great... but it will keep them amateurs as they won't be able to
develop the chef skills. My wife always cooks perfect salmon without any
gadgets - there are other low-tech ways to know when it's done.

~~~
compumike
You may mean something broader by "quality cooking". In the more specific
sense of "cooking" being the controlled addition of heat to ingredients,
Pantelligent solves that perfectly by enabling time and temperature control.
It's still up to you to compose the meal, procure good ingredients, etc.
Pantelligent is a tool, and a powerful one.

~~~
kolev
Well, it solves a problem (for some), but unsolves another - adds Teflon
that's been out of my household for over 10 years! And I'm sure it's not just
me, because all stores are full of alternative coatings.

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kogir
I've had the chance to try the latest three versions and use it every time I
cook now.

Before I had no idea how wildly the temperature on my stove would vary, and
would basically burn or undercook everything. I'd had luck using temperature
probes for things like chicken, but that doesn't work for eggs, fish, etc.

Now I just pull out my phone, pick what I'm cooking, and get a predictably
delicious result.

~~~
hackuser
> I'd had luck using temperature probes for things like chicken, but that
> doesn't work for eggs, fish, etc.

Why not use a temperature sensor and an app; why do I need to buy a whole pan?
Is it that hard to for a sensor to read the heat of the pan's surface without
being integrated?

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buss
I like the idea of constant temperature feedback, but I'm not going to switch
out the pans I already have. I'm inspired to tear apart an IR temperature gun,
place the sensor above each burner and mount the guns' readouts to the front
of the hood.

~~~
compumike
Part of the trick is getting the pan surface temperature, which (to an
overhead pyrometer) is often obscured by the food in the pan. But yes, an IR
thermometer is a good kitchen tool!

~~~
Natsu
One thing I didn't see is how the pan's transmitter is powered? Is it drawing
energy from the heat of the pan or is there a battery in there somewhere?

~~~
icebraining
The pictures on the bottom show common AA batteries inside the handle.

~~~
compumike
Two AAA batteries, user replaceable. Lasts about 9 months. (We like the
thermoelectric generator concept; maybe for a future version!)

------
bensedat
I've been lucky enough to watch this throughout all of the evolutions and help
test it. It's been great learning more about how the cooking process actually
works and perfecting my technique.

EDIT: More information was requested so here goes: I've always been interested
in food science and trying to make food more predictable. I think that's why I
like baking so much. Pantelligent has given me the tools and visualizations to
figure out what is actually happening on my stove. I've learned how to gauge
the temperature of the pan, and how my electric stove has a really huge
carryover heat capacity. I can pretty much turn the stove off halfway through
the cooking process and coast the rest of the way with residual heat and still
cook all the way through, without overcooking.

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matthewowen
I would have assumed PG had eaten at decent restaurants, so the endorsement is
weird. You can get OK salmon in a frying pan, but like pretty much every
protein, you'll probably get better results with sous vide + a quick
sear/blowtorch.

Conveniently, it's also easier than frying, requires less hands-on time, and
is tremendously repeatable. And you can now buy all the gear you need for
about the price of one of these pans!

~~~
compumike
Honestly, we've tried sous vide before. Pantelligent is tastier. For many
practical reasons, I believe that sous vide is not likely to become a standard
household kitchen item. A frying pan and smartphone already are. See also
comments here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8626599](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8626599)

------
JonLim
I'm constantly cooking, and temperature is a constant worry. However,
"affordable" may be a bit misleading, if $169 is the discounted version, I
assume this will be under $200 at retail.

I can pick up a durable frying pan for $15 at most, and it does the job with
my skill level.

What would the real draw for me be? Exact temperature readings are great, and
interactive recipes are cool, but I'm not sure it's worth 10x more than I can
get a regular frying pan. (Hope I didn't come off as snarky, I'm genuinely
curious.)

~~~
chewxy
I use a cast iron skillet + handheld IR thermometer for surface temp. Very
cheap solution.

~~~
nicksergeant
I just bought one of these so I can cook more often with extra virgin olive
oil without approaching the smoke point. At $19 for an IR thermometer, they
should probably be in every kitchen next to the probe thermometer.

~~~
anigbrowl
Get in the habit of looking at the oil in the pan. As it approaches the smoke
point, its refractive index will change and its viscosity will decrease,
giving a dimpled appearance. This is due to convection cells from the heating;
it's easier to see in olive oil because it's relatively thick and dark
compared to other liquids or light oils. In a round, level pan, you'll get a
pleasing hexagonal pattern. Once you have nice stable convection cells you're
ready to cook.

After a while you'll get used to your individual pans and how they transfer
heat, to the point that you don't need to think about how to adjust the heat
any more. Likewise watching the food itself will eventually tell you most of
what you need to know about when it's done.

~~~
baudehlo
Note that this is a lot easier with Gas than with Electric due to the heat
retention of the rings, at least I found. You can kill the heat really quickly
with Gas (which is why no commercial kitchen uses electric).

~~~
compumike
This is a great point. Pantelligent works great on electric stoves (resistive
coils or radiative glass flat-top), even though they retain a lot of heat. It
doesn't magically fix your stove and make it as responsive as a gas stove, but
it does give you the information you need to dial in on the right temperature.

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pjmorris
How closed-source/open-source are the recipes? Are they stored in something
like hRecipe [1] format? Can users edit them, or is that held within the
company?

[1]
[http://microformats.org/wiki/h-recipe](http://microformats.org/wiki/h-recipe)

------
hackuser
Summary: The pan has temperature sensors which report to an app via Bluetooth.
The app displays the actual and desired temperatures, and the user adjusts the
heat on their stove.

The obvious next step is to connect the sensor to the heat control,
eliminating the human from the loop, and to add sensors for humidity level,
pressure, weight (e.g., to determine how much water has boiled off), smoke
(either for that mesquite/caramelized touch, or perhaps it's a good place to
display a sponsored link to a food delivery service) and more.

EDIT: Come to think of it, microwaves use sensor AFAIK. I had one that
defrosted surprisingly well by simply pressing the 'Defrost' button. My
impression was that it used a moisture sensor.

~~~
wdaher
They have a built-in recipe feature as well, sorta like GPS for cooking. "Hey,
it's time to flip that salmon."

~~~
xallthey
Make sure to try my recorded recipe! Honey Seared Tuna Steak.

------
hardwaresofton
I'm sure the answer is yes, but is this being marketed to large corporate
customers also? Because this seems like a great way to increase consistency
and maybe even increase efficiency of cooks in large kitchens...

~~~
analog31
Hasn't Cisco already solved this problem by doing the cooking at the factory?
That would be an additional advantage of the sealed bag. It's basically a
short term canning process.

~~~
hardwaresofton
Sorry, thought you were a bot --

I'm not sure what you mean, could you expand? Do you mean Sysco?

Also, I don't think this is really the same as canned food... I'm thinking
more of the case where there's a relatively large restaurant with lots of
cooks in the kitchen (or even multiple kitchens)

~~~
analog31
I missed your comment until today. Sysco is a giant company that supplies food
material to restaurants. I've read that even at supposedly fancy restaurants,
if you order soup, it's likely to be canned. If you order meat, it's pre-
cooked in a bag, and is re-heated by throwing in boiling water.

It probably saves money and could be more sanitary. On the other hand, it
kinda diminishes the appeal of restaurant dining for me.

~~~
hardwaresofton
Ah, yeah, I've heard of Sysco, they served my school lunches way back when.

And yes, what you're saying is probably true... in that case this wouldn't do
very much good, I think. Maybe the idea of a restaurant that still makes it's
food completely from scratch at every order is farfetched nowadays

~~~
analog31
Indeed. I think it's in France where the government has tried to create a
legal definition for a restaurant that prepares food on site, and from what I
read, they still ended up with a variety of weird loopholes.

------
alkonaut
How can the pan know how cooked my steak is? If there was a spike at the
center that measured the inner temperature of the meat, then I'd understand.
But from just pan surface temp and time it must only be guessing? It would
have to be fed (very) exact measurements of both meat thickness and initial
temperature, right? The difference between 55 and 57 deg (C) steak is huge, so
presumably you'd need to know the initial temp with a similar confidence? On
the website, I can't see the app having inputs for exact
thicknesses/temperatures? A comparison: even in an oven where you can set a
perfect temperature, there is no way the oven temp + time will give you
"perfect steak every time" (unless the oven temp is the target temp)? How is
this different?

Having the pan report its surface temp is neat of course, but wouldn't a tiny
BT pinboard pin-style probe instead of a pan surface temp probe remove a lot
of the variables involved, and report the thing I'm actually interested in
(inner temp), rather than the pan.

Edit: the temperature I'm looking for in a frying pan when cooking fish or
meat is usually "as hot as it goes". Pan just to sear, and let the temperature
be sorted out in Sous Vide or low temp oven.

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muraiki
As a colorblind person, this is actually quite useful. It's probably
significantly easier to use this than constantly checking using a meat
thermometer (and needing to wash the thermometer between checks lest you
contaminate cooked meat with residue from when it was raw)﻿

edit: To clarify, trying to cook meat by sight as a colorblind person (at
least for me) typically results in either raw meat or dried out overcooked
meat.

~~~
compumike
Awesome! We hadn't thought of that specific use case, but that's great!

------
wamatt
Love the concept! This would be perfect for someone like me, that likes to eat
home cooked meals, but loathes the time it takes to prepare.

One thing however, I'm somewhat surprised to see no apparent mention of PFOA
and PTFE being used? [1][2]

The price point of $199, puts this product squarely in the high-end of
cookware, where Teflon based non-stick has fallen out of favor these days.

A smart pan that competes with Le Creuset's increasingly popular enamel pans,
would be amazing. [3]

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfluorooctanoic_acid#Health_c...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfluorooctanoic_acid#Health_concerns)

[2]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polytetrafluoroethylene#Safety](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polytetrafluoroethylene#Safety)

[3][http://www.lecreuset.com/cookware/skillets---saute-
pans](http://www.lecreuset.com/cookware/skillets---saute-pans)

~~~
compumike
Thanks! Non-stick pans are great. They're easy to cook on and clean. By
actually knowing the temperature of the pan, you can avoid the deterioration
of non-stick coatings that can occur in (non-smart) pans when they are
unintentionally brought to very high temperatures.

------
LukeB_UK
I feel that this actually takes away from the experience of cooking. When I
cook, I've always learned from playing around and experimenting, I only ever
roughly read recipes and never follow one without a little change here or
there.

With this, people won't learn to cook, they'll learn to do x when y happens.
That's not learning to cook, that's being a robot.

~~~
pjmax
It isn't learning at all, the users are just cooking their food, I don't see a
problem in that if that's the desired goal.

~~~
cm2012
It's a gateway tool into good cooking - I can see users actually making
something tasty and impressing their friends for the first time with this.
That will make them want to learn more.

------
hackuser
There are so many empty testimonials on this thread: "mind blown"
"stupendous", "there's nothing like this pan", "perfect steak every time",
"predictably delicious" etc.

If you use the pan, a more insightful, informative report of the technology,
its use, etc. would be helpful to your fellow readers.

~~~
borski
Fair enough. The technology is, in itself, very simple: a temperature sensor
built into the bottom of a frying pan, hooked up to an iOS app over low-power
bluetooth.

That's it.

But the technology, in this case, isn't the point. It is a very simple idea,
but one that works exceedingly well in doing its job.

Not every solution to a problem has to be incredibly new technology -
applications of simple technology to problems that lots of people have is just
as much a definition of "make something people want" as building the Oculus
Rift. Whether this is a problem that lots of people have is, I suppose, what
this kickstarter will help elucidate.

I didn't think I had this problem, and then I used the pan. My mind was
changed solely because of the record feature and instant, always-on, access to
the temperature of my pan.

That's all.

~~~
hackuser
Borski: Thanks. But what are its strengths and weaknesses? When does it work
well and where does it need work? Does it run only on iOS? How good is the pan
as a frying pan? What's the construction quality? Customer service? etc etc.

I did not mean to imply that it had to be cutting edge or complex tech.

~~~
borski
Fair enough. I'd say it works well for cooking protein or veg in a frying pan.

It does run only in iOS. Construction quality is quite good - it's not a
Calphalon pan, but it isn't the $10 Target pan either. It's somewhere in
between. The construction of the handle (where the electronics are stored) is
top-notch.

Customer service I can't vouch for, as they're friends and live nearby, but I
suspect they would make things right very quickly.

------
frownie
Geek's dream...

First, instead of providing tools, one could help people to develop taste.
Many accept overcooked chicken or fish because they just catch the spices
flavours. They can't judge what a well cooked dish is. Dry chicken is an
abomination...

2/ The thickness of a salmon filet is everything but regular. So cooking it
correctly involves a bit more than temperature handling

3/ As said, you don't cook "a steak", you cook "this steak". That's the thing.
Cooking a good steak involves so many thing : quality of the steak (forget
about supermarket), quality and handling of the fat (Gordon Ramsay once made a
very good explanation on how to use butter on youtube), make sure the steak
rest enough time off the heat before serving, cook for steak's colour first
(so it is beautiful) and then cook for bloody/well done/cooked. Cook long and
not short. Don't use a fork to manipulate the steak. Don't turn the steak
upside down to often. With an autoamted pan you may sure cook a steak but you
won't know _why_ you did it right...

4/ If your problem is overcooking or undercooking a steak, learn to touch the
steak. Hard means overcooked, soft means undercooked. With a bit of practice
you'll be able to make good steaks, not 3 star michelin ones, but good ones.

5/ For steaks (not fish) you can buy cast iron skillets. These are super cheap
(15 euros here !)and they live forever. But you have to learn to
master/clean/season them (that's your old grand ma stuff, but knowledge is
lost so it's pretty hard)

6/ The salmon on the web site looks super over cooked to me (it s top side is
super borw and just below it's all white)

7/ said before : a fryin pan that doesn't go to the oven is useless. Countless
times where I fry a piece of meat and finishes it in the oven where I can get
the temperature righ everywhere.

8/ will the pan stand the "deglaçage" ? That's when you throw a cold liquid in
the pan to grab all the softly burned piece of meat/fat. that's super
important to making sauces.

9/ Will it stand the dish washer ?

10/ Where's the fun ? I mean, if you buy this because you can't find the time
necessary to learn to cook, and thus, learn to appreciate good cooking, what's
the point ? Do yourself a favour don't buy the pan, look for a good restaurant
(and at the price of the pan you certainly can find a good one) and ask the
chef to prepare a good steak for you. You'll learn something.

------
chewxy
This is a cool idea. I personally use a IR temperature gauge for the surface
my pan (I thought of wiring it up once, but it was too fiddly for me), and a
wired therm for internal meat temp.

I'm currently in two minds about backing this. On the one hand, it frees me
from using multiple devices. On the other hand, I already have a solution, and
this solution is exactly the same as the one I have (I probably have more
accurate readings). And this solution is a lot more expensive (199 for
shipping to Australia) than my current solution

An innovation I'd like to see is something like sous vide for a frypan, where
the pan temperature automatically changes (this is hard because well, I like a
flame stove too)

------
mangecoeur
Talk about over-engineering! Anyone can cook decently with a bit of care and
attention. You're better off buying good quality ingredients and just taking
the time to learn and experiment.

------
icki
Interesting, seems to be competing with the Palate Smart Grill
[http://palatehome.com/](http://palatehome.com/)

~~~
pbhjpbhj
There seems to be very little info on that page other than that it's a grill
of some form. No video?

------
lifeformed
The bluetooth aspect seems over-the-top; I'd rather just have a pan with a
small display in the handle that shows the temperature.

~~~
compumike
That would be simpler, but you would miss out on the biggest benefits of
Pantelligent: one is being able to walk away or be doing something else and
still get notifications. Two is the adaptive recipes. But you can certainly
use "Freestyle Mode" and get the effect you're looking for!

------
unchocked
This is almost the right solution. The right solution would include an
integrated heating element, a smart pan-hotplate fusion.

~~~
lightblade
Yup, preferably an separable induction heating surface that can be paired with
the pan to intelligently control the temperature.

Separate so that you can flip that pancake/burger.

------
DanBC
Looks amazing!

I uaven't watched the video yet. Does it work on induction hobs? Is there an
option to use Celsius?

EDIT: is it aluminum? That won't work on induction hobs. Also, if anyone knows
of good quality tiny non-stick pans that work on induction hobs, on sale in
US, I'd be interested.

~~~
compumike
Thanks! Currently: no and yes. (Posting more FAQs on the page now!)

------
rickdale
For whatever its worth, I find salmon to be the easiest thing to cook. Put
oven on broil high. Salmon out of fridge. Little lemon, salt, pepper, dill, in
the oven, 20-25 minutes and bam best salmon I ever made or had, every time.
Also a lot probably depends on the quality or age of the fish.

------
malandrew
Embed a sensor in an All Clad and I'm interested. The heat control and even
heat distribution you get in a high quality multi-ply pan with a copper ply
matter.

~~~
compumike
The value proposition is similar, in some ways: better heating control through
engineering. But Pantelligent actually delivers on that.

------
cosmotron
What's the plan for the Android version of the app?

------
mariusz79
If you want to cook your food right check the temperature of the food not
temperature of the pan. And cast iron is much better than teflon.

------
marc0
Sorry, but that's a total overshoot. I definitivly won't sit next to my pan,
monitoring its temperature on my smartphone to find the "perfect" moment when
to stir the chopped onions. I would, maybe, if I did some extremely
temperature sensitive chemical experiment. But not in my kitchen.

And WFT: there are batteries in the handle? It's a joke, yes? A pan should be
the perfect thing for energy harvesting, which would be at least to some
extent innovative.

~~~
compumike
That's the point -- you don't have to sit next to your pan monitoring anything
at all. The Pantelligent app does that for you (and then sends you alerts),
and it does it quite well! Even if you're an experienced chef already, this
frees you up to do other things.

Yes, batteries are great! Adding a thermoelectric generator is a possibility
-- the power requirement is certainly met -- but it adds significant
complexity.

------
coldcode
Interesting. What I wonder is how it compares to using a PIC which also does
precise temp control (though not in an app obviously).

------
kolev
It's been years since health-concerned people abandoned Teflon. From the
pictures, it looks like this is still using Teflon.

------
cindywu123
i've been testing the prototype for months. there's nothing like this pan. i
love experimenting with cooking eggs. also perfect steak every time.

------
jbob2000
Can I wash it?

------
jacobkg
Try their instructions for cooking Trader Joes 'Mandarin Orange Chicken'. So
good!! Better than any I have had anywhere. I'm probably making it like once a
week now.

