

Twelve Months Notice - frederickcook
http://cdixon.org/2009/10/23/twelve-months-notice/

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tptacek
What? No! What?

I've worked in startups my entire adult life and, please take my word for
this, there is nothing magical about startup bosses that change the dynamic
between employer and employee, and there are no special obligations startup
employees shoulder.

If you give 12 months notice, you should prepare to be marginalized in your
last year at the company. If you give 2 weeks notice, you should not expect to
be blackballed in the industry. If someone gives you a bad reference for
giving "only" 2 weeks notice, you should urge your friends never to work for
that person again; if a prospective employer makes a stink about that kind of
reference, you should avoid working for that employer.

Tech startup employers are fond of a "third-prize-is-you're-fired", "reward
for just OK is a severance package" mentality. They don't feel like they owe
_you_ a year's advance notice about their plans. Stay professional, but don't
bend over backwards for an employer unless you have a specific, personal
reason for doing so. "That's how it works in startups" is _not_ a valid
reason.

And please, please remember: it is a seller's market for talent.

~~~
neilc
_If you give 12 months notice, you should prepare to be marginalized in your
last year at the company._

I gave 12 months notice when working for a startup before leaving for graduate
school, and I wasn't "marginalized" at all. Giving my employer plenty of
notice gave us time to talk about whether I really wanted to go to grad school
(I did); to find a replacement (which I helped with); and to transition
projects to other people. It also helped my employer plan: if you have a small
technical team and a major contributor leaves, most startups would like more
than two weeks to find a good replacement.

Any startup that "marginalizes" an employee who gives extra notice would be
petty and small-minded: the employee is doing you a favor. Besides, by
marginalizing you, they'd just be wasting the time you have remaining at the
company.

~~~
tptacek
If you love your current employer and want to do them a favor, give them lots
of notice. I'm not saying you're a crazy person for doing that. I'm saying
it's a poor rule of thumb. You are not obligated to give huge amounts of
notice to your employer.

I'm an employer. I've had people give me 2 weeks of notice at _extremely_
inopportune times. I am good for a solid recommendation for all of them. You
don't dick around with people's careers.

Consider also the flip side of this issue. If you give me 2 months notice, and
I need someone for a solid 4 months to execute a project, I may have to start
recruiting now to fill that slot in time. We can talk all we want about the
sacred bonds of trust between startup founder and startup employee, but _none
of that_ competes with the requirement to keep feeding and providing health
care for the families of everyone else who works at the company.

~~~
neilc
No one (certainly not the original article) has suggested that employees
should be "obligated to give huge amounts of notice" to their employers.
Dixon's point is just that the legalistic, "by the books" approach that is
orthodox at a big faceless corporation isn't always the best strategy in a
startup.

 _I'm an employer. I've had people give me 2 weeks of notice at extremely
inopportune times._

Right; I certainly wouldn't expect a bad recommendation if I did that. On the
other hand, if I recognized that only giving two weeks notice would be
inconvenient for my employer, and if it wouldn't be problematic for me, I
think giving more notice is just a decent and honest thing to do.

~~~
tptacek
_For this reason, if you are an employee working at a startup where the
managers are honest, inclusive and fair, you should disregard everything
you’ve learned about proper behavior from people outside of the startup
world._

 _For example, let’s suppose you are a two years out of college and have a job
at a startup. You like your job but decide you want to go to graduate school.
The big company legalistic types will tell you to secretly send in your
applications, and, if you get accepted and decide to attend, give your boss
two weeks notice._

 _What you should instead do is talk to your boss as soon as you are seriously
considering graduate school._

This is bad advice. You should disregard it.

------
grellas
Even as a lawyer, I would heartily concur that relationships based on trust
and cooperation are far better than those based solely on legalistic concerns.

That said, I think the author underestimates the risk of opportunistic
behavior by those involved in startups. Even years ago, when I started
practicing, I vividly remember the refrain: "My buddies and I started this
thing and everything was going well . . . but then it became really valuable .
. . and then . . ." You fill in the blank but it was always some variation of
"I would never believe he would have done that to me" as the "buddy" stuck
some knife in or grabbed some disproportionate share of the reward from the
once cooperative effort. The most frequent situation involved a dominant
founder, who legally controlled everything, taking opportunistic advantage of
co-founders who had trusted in his integrity and ultimately found it to be
wanting. There were many other variations, however, and these can take any
forms made possible by human ingenuity.

It is important to strike a balance. Normally, nothing good will come out of
bad relationships, even if they are documented to the hilt with big, fat
contracts. On the other hand, blind trust in a business setting, or even
relying on your instincts to judge the character of others while believing
them invariably to want to do good, is normally not wise. Trust but document.
Just don't overdo it in a way that kills the spirit of cooperation.

~~~
ojbyrne
Having been there and done that, I totally disagree with the original poster.
Once there's money on the table, bad behavior follows soon after.

~~~
hga
I don't think that's _inevitable_ ... just very likely.

It's a time at which you're going to find out for certain what someone's
character is.

------
gamble
Having worked for (and left) a couple of startups, I'd be reluctant to follow
his advice. Most entrepreneurs think of their companies as something between a
beloved child and a religion. For some, quitting is like you declared their
kid is an ugly git. It's better just to sever the relationship quickly before
it has time to sour.

~~~
MicahWedemeyer
I agree 100%. Whatever the reason, once you make that declaration, you've made
it clear that something else in your life is more important than "the company"
Most employers don't take that well, and startup founders even less.

Having watched fellow startup employees be let go and told to clear out by the
end of the day, I don't believe they (or you, or I) have any duty to give more
than the culturally accepted 2-weeks notice.

~~~
mmt
What I've never understood is the double-standard. Why is it culturally
acceptable for the employer to give same-day notice, but the employee should
give 2 weeks?

I always advise to give the amount of notice (or severance) the employer would
give. If the departure is prompted by a recent layoff, there's not even need
to speculate.

~~~
andrewf
In Australia, you might leave the office the day you give notice, but you'll
still get paid for the minimum notice period even if the company doesn't want
you showing up to work.

------
CrashandBurn
Having worked on agreements of trust I have had both good and bad experiences.
I had one client whom I had developed a beautiful blog for that was actually
starting to get half decent advertising revenue and traffic. Having known the
person for a few months outside of the professional relationship, I agreed to
work for considerably less than I would have normally. The person had the
experience necessary to sell the product, but none of the technical know-how
or understanding. They could barely understand how to use technology. They
also wanted to consume a huge amount of my time, and at times unnecessarily.
After doing some initial brainstorming and kind of getting a feel for the
project we decided on terms. Some cash weekly + equity. After delivering a
beautiful site and working with the guy to get posts and adverts processed, I
was supposed to have started to receive additional payments due to revenue
coming in. This wasn't happening. I attempted to explain that I couldn't
continue without getting the payments promised and knew that there was no
legitimate reason payment couldn't be made. There was almost zero overhead.
After a few days of trying to stand my ground, I informed him that I would no
longer be willing to work on the project. He tried to convince me to continue
to train a replacement without pay. I laughed and explained that I wouldn't
help him find someone else to cheat, and that no amount of money could at this
point get me to continue working for him. The moral of the story that I took
out of this is simple, the relationship works well when partners recognize the
importance of fairness and understand the importance of each other and their
worth. I think that a huge factor in these relationships is finding someone to
work with that doesn't have an over inflated ego. On the converse, legal
agreements are drafted for one reason: to protect oneself and remain within
the law, and they are intrinsically selfish. Legal agreements that are
intended to provide protection and establish terms fairly generally will only
be a few pages and can be interpreted by anyone capable of analytical
thinking.

------
morisy
I don't think what Chris Dixon highlights here is _exclusive_ to the startup
world, but it's pretty close. A friend once gave 2 month's notice, then
extended it to three after the boss begged him to stay, but as soon as he left
he was a persona non grata, still dissed behind his back.

There are some other industries (big time consulting, for example) where
transience is expected and encouraged, and it's a fair question to ask about
that type of commitment up front. Particularly if you're up front about your
intentions or expectations _during the hiring process_ , people will be more
willing to be understanding when you want to move on, and those
recommendations, suggestions and connections can come in handy.

~~~
j_baker
I don't necessarily know if everyone _can_ give those expectations during the
hiring process. Personally, I'm going to leave a company as soon as I see a
good reason to do so. In other words, I can't give a potential future boss a
clear picture of how long I will work there because I don't know myself.

In other words, this advice might work out if you're the kind of person who
will think "I want to work for this job for about x months/years and then move
on to something else". But not everyone thinks that way.

Regardless, +1 for being clear about your intentions up front. You can't go
wrong that way (for most jobs).

~~~
morisy
I absolutely agree with that, Jason. But I think rather then saying "I want to
be with this company x years," possibly say "At some point, I want to move
from x to a management position" or "I want to get a graduate degree in 3 to 4
years." This kind of transparency can encourage incentives to keep you around:
Partial or complete tuition reimbursement if you take night classes, for
example.

Again, not always feasible if _you_ don't know what you want yet or if you're
in the wrong environment, but a good strategy when it works </tautology>

------
nroach
This difference in thought process is often described as "cooperative" vs.
"adversarial". I like the "relationship" vs. "transactional" analogy as well.

I always start out with a cooperative approach, and fall back to adversarial
only when the other party makes it necessary. Over time, you learn to
recognize certain personality types and can predict which category a boss or
business partner falls into.

My cautionary advice would be this: In a game of rock-paper-scissors, the
transactional/adversarial personality almost always "wins" because the
cooperative personality will accept a less advantageous position in order to
avoid conflict. It's wise to recognize which personality type you are.

If you're cooperative by nature, write out on paper or at least have decided
what your minimum acceptable position will be _prior_ to bringing up the
subject or entering negotiation. And realize when you're being pushed past
that point.

------
ojbyrne
Just another comment - I see no indication that hunch is going to give it's
employees 12 months notice before letting them go.

------
mkinsella
Especially relevant, as I'll be moving to Kansas City in July and have yet to
start the process. Now that I'm only 4 months away, I'll probably tell my
employer (a medium sized startup of 25ish employees) and get to applying!

~~~
mmt
+1 for not classifying 25ish as "small."

------
mallipeddi
I counter this with another question: how many startup bosses/founders
transparently discuss with their employees how much money they've left in the
bank and how much longer they can actually meet payroll. Usually they tell you
this like maybe a month before but there are always signs if you look for them
:)

------
gchpaco
I ended up giving four months notice before going to grad school in 2001.
Company was too disorganized to really make use of it, but they appreciated
the gesture.

------
pw0ncakes
I think that this is advisable when you're making a dramatic change, such as
going to graduate school, where the nature of that change is such that your
departure can't be taken to reflect on the company that you're leaving. If
it's April, and you accept an offer to attend graduate school in September,
it's probably best to let your boss know as soon as you've made the decision.

If you are moving to another company, then it's touchier because it raises
questions about why you want to work at Y instead of X, and I think the 2
weeks' notice and generic exit interview are the better approach. There's
nothing you gain by saying the reason you'd rather work at Y.

