
Ask HN: How can I work towards building a company while employed? - mr_puzzled
I will start a job as a software dev and with the job offer comes a bunch of contract clauses that basically lets the company own all IP while employed. I am from a third world country, so I won&#x27;t be able alter the contract clauses. With these restrictions in place, what can I do while employed to have a better chance of succeeding when I do start a company?<p>My plan :<p>- continue learning while on the job<p>- prepare for interviews so that I can apply to companies that are friendly to side projects (stripe, gitlab, github and a bunch of other such companies. Please mention companies that are ok with remote workers and are side project friendly, even startups paying $30,000 work for me)<p>- build side projects in my free time that demonstrate my skills<p>- maybe participate in Pioneer.app tournaments so I can network<p>- basically work on stuff that won&#x27;t become a company<p>- once I get a job at a more side project friendly company, I&#x27;ll start working on my ideas.<p>As you can see, it&#x27;s quite a shitty situation to not be able to pursue my side projects that could become companies, but it is what it is and I want to make the most of the next year or so. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thank you.
======
agentofoblivion
I don’t think many of these comments are realistic. I’m truth, these clauses
are likely defensive, particularly for tech companies. There is an almost 100%
chance that if you started a company and left your job, your company will not
register your coming or going in the slightest. If you’re some famous person
that ends up starting some billion dollar company, and it was in an area
highly relevant to your job, you might have a problem. Or if you try to sue
them to stop doing something you created while employed for them. But if
you’re just a regular person that starts some business that’s moderately
successful (already an unlikely scenario), everything is going to be fine. It
will likely take you YEARS and YEARS of toiling in obscurity before you come
even close to profitability, and that’s if you’re lucky. You think some big
tech company is even going to remember you? Even if you build a multimillion
dollar business, that’s a drop in the bucket for them, not to mention legal
fees, difficulty of enforcing the dubious contract, and the bad PR of
squashing a former employee’s business.

~~~
not_a_moth
Exception: You work at a decently funded startup, you play a key role, and you
leave to start something in the same domain.

They know who you are, and they're probably insecure about their own success.

~~~
djsumdog
That's why you never sign a non-compete.

[https://penguindreams.org/blog/why-i-dont-sign-non-
competes/](https://penguindreams.org/blog/why-i-dont-sign-non-competes/)

I had a non-compete in a startup contract and I outright refused to sign it.
I'm glad I did. They wanted complete control of all the software I wrote too
(which up until that point had been GPLv3; all volunteer work). After the
startup failed, my efforts in that contract negotiation paid off as I made
sure I was allowed to re-release the software as GPLv3. It's currently used by
students at the University of Dayton:

[https://bigsense.io](https://bigsense.io)

~~~
detaro
Expired cert and HTTP 503?

~~~
djsumdog
Hmm .. seems like my certbot container stopped renewing and my confluence
container ran out of memory. I should really add some monitoring. :)

------
ilaksh
The clauses I have seen attempt to claim all intellectual work regardless of
when it was done or whether it was related to the job.

To me, this is an indication that we truly have not progressed beyond wage
slavery. I believe such clauses should be illegal.

I think one thing we might be able to do is to create a list of companies that
have blanket clauses like this and then some people (not most) will have the
luxury of boycotting them. I see this as a human rights issue actually. It is
an attempt to trap an individual indefinitely in a labor mode.

And yes, it's extremely common and a standard legal practice. So was outright
slavery for many thousands of years. However, attempting to claim unrelated
work outside of office hours is a violation of natural rights.

~~~
tenaciousDaniel
I'm kind of mind-blown reading this thread. Right now I'm working on a product
of my own, and I'm currently employed. The product has absolutely-zero-nada-
nothing to do with what my company does, I do it on my own time, with my own
money, with my own machine.

Are you saying that I still may not be legally in the clear? If so, that is
incredibly insane, and I can't believe clauses like that actually exist.

Not sure how I made it this far without knowing this was a thing, but goddamn
that's infuriating.

edit: brb gonna go sift through all the shit I signed when I joined

~~~
jchw
Even if you are legally in the clear, your company’s lawyers could still try
to fight for it anyways.

Make sure you Never use company resources, and next time, consider getting a
copyright assignment exemption before beginning work.

The reality is that it probably isn’t really likely all companies are out to
steal your personal work through dubious copyright assignment agreements, but
that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be super aggressive.

~~~
saluki
Not a lawyer but I would probably just keep all side projects on the down low,
don't draw attention by asking for a copyright assignment exemption, don't
develop it at work or even log in via a company pc or phone. Don't mention it
to co-workers. Keep your name off of it on the public side. Keep it anonymous.
I expect you could even use a 'pen name' if you wanted to, if you need to be
visible, do podcasts, etc.

Most of your side projects aren't going to amount to anything anyway but if
you keep it anonymous the chances of your company approaching you about it
after you leave are very small. Even if it turns in to a success.

------
archi42
> a bunch of contract clauses that basically lets the company own all IP while
> employed.

This is default here as well (Germany), but I only interpret this as stuff
done during work time. So the stuff I come up with and the code I write at the
office on my workstation is automatically owned by my employee. That's fine,
because if it wasn't, that would cause all kinds of legal trouble should I
ever leave the company.

But if I create things in my free time at home, on my own equipment, then
that's MINE, and I might start a company from it -- the only trouble might
come if there is reason to believe I stole code/trade secrets (e.g. starting a
company in the same niche) or my employee might assume I worked on my it
during my paid hours (e.g. all of a sudden bootstrapping a 100 employee
company, while getting paid 40h a week until yesterday).

Of course your contract is probably very different, but I have a difficult
time imagining that what you're doing in your unpaid time is owned by your
employee. Logic here is: You're paid to work a specified time of hours per
time interval (e.g. 40h/week). What you do there is owned by your boss. Then
if your boss wanted to own all you do/come up with outside of that time, he
would need to buy that time from you as well. E.g. to own all you come up
with, even in your sleep, you should be eligible for a 7*24h/week
compensation. Of course this is more morals than law, but well, maybe you just
misinterpreted the wording?

//edit: Mind the discussion below this thread. IANAL, and my moral point of
view might not match the legal reality.

~~~
geocar
> But if I create things in my free time at home, on my own equipment, then
> that's MINE, and I might start a company from it

That's not entirely accurate: You're required to submit it to your employer if
it _could_ be related to your work, see especially §18 (1-2) and §19

[https://www.gesetze-im-
internet.de/arbnerfg/BJNR007560957.ht...](https://www.gesetze-im-
internet.de/arbnerfg/BJNR007560957.html#BJNR007560957BJNG000400306)

~~~
danielh
IANAL, but if I'm reading §2 correctly, that only applies to patentable
inventions.

------
WestCoastJustin
Do not do anything non-work related on company equipment! Ever, for any
reason, seriously don't do it! Do not even research the idea! Assume the
company is logging everything. They likely are. Honestly, I'd just focus on
work and learn if you are just starting out. Learn as much as you can while
employed by other folks (they are basically paying you to learn). Learn as
much about the business your company is in too. For example, say you are a
software dev at a VFX company. You might only care about your specific dev
project in a tiny silo. But, learn the larger context of where your piece fits
into the bigger company picture or industry. Learn about your company, where
it fits into the bigger picture, where are things headed in your industry.
This will open all types of jobs opportunities as you can pivot around in your
industry. Why are you doing what you are doing? This will really help you down
the road when you start your company as you want to think of the larger
workflows and where you fit in. Focus on workflows as the underlining tech
constantly changes (but workflows rarely do)! Running a company is a 24/7
thing, you will not get weekend or nights off, so don't burn yourself out
working for someone else and doing your own thing useless you really think it
will work. I have tons of 10% complete projects that I thought where good
ideas but never panned out. So, just play around and see what might work.
Don't take it all the way unless you are really sure.

If you want a job at something like gitlab. Hangout on their open-source
project, learn their codebase, and send in patches. Even if they are simple
docs patches. Send in 50 of those and you will start to learn the devs. Ask
one of them what it is like to work there, ask them to refer you, etc. The CEO
of gitlab is constantly on HN (I swear he has an alert for mention of gitlab).
So, he will likely see this post. My point, take some initiative and try not
to go through the conventional recruiter pipe (apply on website and no one
ever gets back to you cycle). Doing this, has worked out really well for me in
the past, and it will work for you too. Sure, it is more work but gets you
ahead of everyone else as you are making an effort. Be strategic about this
and really choose who you want to work for and go after them. Having something
like, hey, I patched 50 minor typos in your code/docs goes a long way, between
you and some nobody!

~~~
Kaotique
I find that first advice a bit paranoid. What country are you from where it is
normal that a company is logging and spying on its employers? I have a company
laptop but there is no logging whatsoever. Outside office hours I use this
laptop to do personal stuff all the time.

~~~
evgen
In many countries if you have a company laptop then everything on that laptop
or done on that laptop belong to the company. They are unlikely to be spying
on your directly, but they will often have administrative access, will perform
backups to ensure continuity of business data you are working on etc. If you
leave and start a competing company someone in IT is going to get a call
asking them to check your archived data (email, etc.) to see if you were
working on this new company while using old company equipment or during old
company time. If they find evidence of this then in many jurisdictions you are
going to be in trouble...

Save the headache and use your own equipment. At the very least have a
personal VM that you run to do your personal work on.

~~~
Kaotique
I appreciate your concern, but in this case, there is really nothing going on
this laptop that I am not aware of. Company e-mail is archived somewhere in
Google but I obviously don't use my company e-mail for personal use.

I am a bit surprised that multiple people here are living in such a permanent
state of paranoia.

~~~
nullwasamistake
Most companies in the US monitor everything. And you probably wouldn't know,
things like intercepting DNS are not obvious from users end. Many monitoring
tools hide themselves like malware.

~~~
ronsor
If the owner didn't want it installed, it would be malware!

(but since the owner is the company....)

------
ratherbefuddled
There's a lot of awful legal advice in the comments here much of which ignores
key issues like what exactly your contract says, which legal jurisdiction you
are in and what you are planning to do. Ignore all of it.

If you want to know about the legal consequences of something you would like
to do, take your contract to a lawyer before you do it and pay for written
advice.

As for what you can do to be successful when you start a company here's some
advice:

1) Network. People make crucial decisions about large amounts of money on
reputation, instinct and lots of other intangibles all the time. Build a list
of genuine contacts. Build a reputation for competence and integrity so that
those contacts think and speak well of you. This pays off more than anything
else you could do for getting off the ground.

2) Learn. I don't mean learn certain technologies or do lots of
qualifications. Learn about an industry (not IT) and it's business problems.
Learn this directly from people doing the work, not from go-betweens or books.
Of course learn tech too but tech is pretty easy to get to grips with if
you're really a geek. When you match cool tech up to real business problems
suddenly you look like some kind of wizard.

~~~
scribu
> Build a reputation for competence and integrity so that those contacts think
> and speak well of you.

That's all well and good when you've already got a business up and running.
But is there a way to start building those sorts of relationships _before_ you
quit your day job? Only way I can think of is by doing contracting/consulting
on the side.

~~~
ratherbefuddled
> But is there a way to start building those sorts of relationships before you
> quit your day job?

It depends on your specific job but generally you're going to have colleagues
and customers. Today's customer might be a future collaborator. Today's
colleague might be a future co-founder. Today's boss might one day be a buyer.

For me, the CEO of a business where I was a dev eventually retired after
acquisition and some years later helped me to find investors in my own
startup. If he hadn't thought well of me I doubt he would have helped.

You can't really plan all these interconnections, so you have to do this
generally and that's a good thing.

------
fergie
> a bunch of contract clauses that basically lets the company own all IP while
> employed.

Probably the most practical solution here is to simply disregard this clause
in the contract. Breaching such a clause would be a civil, not a criminal
offense, and it is unlikely that a civil complaint would be even considered
unless there was a lot of money at stake, and it was easy/cheap to
prove/uphold. In order for it to be upheld your employer would have to spend a
lot of time and energy deciding, and then proving what it was you built "on
their time".

In other words, given that you don't actively publicize your own personal
contribution to a commercial project its very unlikely that your employer can
have any leverage over you in this regard.

~~~
chii
this is very dangerous advice. If it is in your clause,then it's easy to come
after you for it.

Just don't do it on company dime and company time. This is what weekends are
for, and it'd be up to the company to prove otherwise.

~~~
mongol
But if it says "while employed", I don't think working on it on weekends makes
a difference. Employment lasts until it ends, not only while on working hours.

~~~
anonymousab
The idea behind these clauses is that they apply 24/7/365 while you are
salaried.

------
9nGQluzmnq3M
Don't overindex on your contract wording: just because it says that doesn't
mean your company will in practice a) realize that you worked on something
else while employed there, b) care enough that they'll take the time to sue
you, and c) win that case if they do.

Realistically speaking, unless your side gig is a direct competitor or becomes
a massive success, you're probably fine. And you can reduce risk further by
not launching your company while still employed, which makes it that much
harder for them to notice and/or prove you worked there at the same time.

~~~
nostrademons
The big risk isn't that they sue you, it's that various collaborators you need
to make the company a massive success (investors, cofounders, acquirers) will
not want to do business with you if your IP and legal paperwork isn't "clean".
This sort of stuff comes out in due diligence. You don't want to pour your
soul into a company for years, actually build up a business to the point where
it's a success, and then find that a potential acquirer passes on the deal
because they noticed your commit history overlapped with the dates of
employment of your past employer.

------
sessy
1\. Be fair to your company. They are paying you to make their product
succeed. Imagine a future situation where you are running a succesful company.
Would you want your employees taking your money while working on their own pet
projects?

2\. An hour or two every day and code marathons on weekends can get your a
basic version of product out in a few months.

3\. Never give in to temptation to steal office hours to work on your project.

~~~
Grustaf
1\. Why would the company care what he does in his free time? Assuming he is
not using company IP or working on company time, it should be completely up to
him.

Sure, the company will not want him to suddenly leave to launch his company,
but the way to combat that is by making the position more attractive, and
screening for it when hiring.

The American view on labour seems quite similar to slavery.

~~~
jt2190
The simple answer is that the employer needs a clear picture of what they own.

Let’s say you’re a scientist. Your employer sets you up in a lab (that you
could never afford on your own) and gives you the task of solving a problem
that, if solved, would be worth millions to the company. One night you go home
thinking about the tough problem. The next morning at home you have a shower
and suddenly you realize the solution!

Who owns the solution? Did you solve it by yourself? Can you now take the
solution and launch your own company? If the company puts itself up for sale
can they claim ownership of the solution?

This is why in the U.S. these “the company owns everything while you’re our
employee” clauses exist. Consider them legal laziness: It’s easier to declare
ownership of everything than it is to negotiate with every employee over who
owns what under what circumstance.

Edit: These clauses are enough to take to trial. At the very least a deep-
pocketed employer can scare off investors from investing in the employee.

~~~
Grustaf
Clearly anything related to company IP belongs to the company, even if you
come up with it in the evening.

I am of course talking about innovations or just work done in unrelated areas,
while employed.

The idea that an employer owns everything you create is offensive to human
dignity and happily that is not how it works in Europe.

You are even encouraged to start your own company, in some countries you have
a legally enshrined right to take a LOA for six months and work on your
business, and then come back to your old employer.

------
motohagiography
If you want to build a company, use the time to build relationships with your
future customers and credentials for your reputation for being good at
whatever you mean to do. Your employer can't own these.

Once you have those relationships, learning their problems and proposing a
solution to them, and having them pay for it is also likely outside the scope
of your job with your employer.

If the problem is valuable enough to them, you can agree to solve it for them
for enough money that it will float you for the first 6 months while you
develop it. Quit your job, live on your savings, maybe pick up some contracts
if you can't raise seed capital, and deliver the product to your customers.

Companies aren't made of code, products are, and there are no products without
customers, as otherwise it's just art or a science project. Companies are made
primarily of relationships with customers, underwritten by products, some of
which are made of code. That direction is not reversible.

I've developed my own software projects, and for a long time tried to figure
out how practising something I could pay someone offshore to do for $30k/year
could somehow be worth so much more if I could just do some secret thing
right. The advice was always scattershot, be more this, do more that. What it
came down to was, it's not the code, it's not the features, it's not the
design or architecture - it's the relationships.

Who do you have relationships with and what are their problems? If you can't
solve them with what you are good at, maybe you need to find new people with
new problems. If you can't do that, find someone who knows people who have
problems and money, and then partner with them to sell a solution.

It sounds so simple, and it is, but if it were easy, everyone would do it.

------
jv22222
Does anyone have any anecdotes about companies enforcing this rule and coming
after a founder that started a side project while working for the company?

------
camhart
Launch fast. Do not spend a year building your first one without launching.

Your motivation will tank at times... in those moments its extremely helpful
to have paying customers--you'll find your motivation replenishes a lot
easier.

~~~
mingabunga
Also, it's easy to get caught up in daily stuff after work, so you have to
make it a priority above most other things.

------
dahart
> what can I do while employed to have a better chance of succeeding when I do
> start a company?

Market research! If there was one single thing I should have done more of
before quitting my job to start a company it was making sure people would buy
what I was going to build. If there was one single thing I should have done
less of before quitting my job it’s spending time building something I wasn’t
sure people would buy.

~~~
desireco42
Ha, but if you are actually "sure", as usually people are :). No seriously,
excellent point, I knew about it and still did it wrong way.

------
JamesBarney
They own IP but there are lots of valuable things you can do for a startup
that don't involve important IP.

For b2b you can start talking to potential clients in the space. They don't
own your network.

For b2c you can start finding communities and building an email list. They
don't own your audience.

This is great because as a dev it forces you to do the hard stuff first that
has the biggest impact on your success or failure. Not coding which is the fun
easy part(for coders).

------
nansnasus
1) Do NOT use your company provided gadgets / facilities - laptop, mobile etc
to accomplish any of your personal / startup task. 2) Do NOT use
company/office hours to work on your side projects. 3) Most companies do not
mind their employees taking up side gigs unless it affects productivity or a
competitor is involved. Talk to your manager.

FYI, I am from a developing country as well.

------
lisperforlife
Here is what I'd do.

* Pick a tech stack and get really good at it. You can do it at your company's time and equipment as it is gaining knowledge.

* Give yourself 6 months to blog and contribute to open source on your own laptop. Get something decent to get started. If you feel buying a Macbook Pro or a similar Dev laptop is a huge expense, look for options to rent it in the short term. Consistency is key, ensure that you are pushing out a new post every week.

* Get into a freelancing gig where you are able to set your own times. This will give you a sense of business priorities and how to pitch and get clients. Conduct trainings and workshops and charge market rates for your expertise.

* Then if you really find a problem that needs more than your mind and two hands to solve, by all means setup a company, hire people and do things. As a developer looking for freedom from the man, freelancing is a good way to gain that freedom. Your own employer might hire you on your terms for twice the pay he is paying you currently.

~~~
cube00
Do not use your company's time or equipment, period. "Gaining knowledge" needs
to be justified, if you start learning tech stacks not endorsed by your
company on company equipment and time, you'll have a problem.

~~~
simplecomplex
What problem? Who cares if you upset the company? Just get another job.

------
sejtnjir
Show up. Do the work. Take every opportunity to learn the skills you deem
relevant to your long term plans.

Don't fill up all your free time with other work-related projects. You won't
be able to learn as fast on the job if you're constantly depleting your
cognitive reserves.

Do sports. Go out. Read a book. Don't load up on side projects you might not
be able to finish.

------
analog31
One of your biggest risks when you start your own company is handling the
business side of the business. The tech might be the easy part. Your present
employer may be willing to teach you the business side if you're willing.
Allow yourself to be noticed as a person who can be groomed for management.

I worked at a small company for a few years before my spouse and I decided to
relocate. Today I have a small side business, and everything I know about
running that business, I learned from the job that I worked for a few years, a
couple decades ago.

------
jliptzin
Would you mind sending me your resume? I have a job you could do for
$30k/year, it’s not glamorous but also not difficult and I don’t care how much
time you spend working on your side projects as long as the work gets done in
a reasonable amount of time. Email is in my profile.

------
saalweachter
If you want to be extra paranoid, sit down and make a list of everything you
need to do to start a small software company _besides_ write code.

Stuff like, find co-founders, identify the customers for the product you want
to create, figure out your business model (direct sales? support? freemium?
ads?), run _numbers_ on your business model (how successful would you have to
be to turn a profit?), how do you file taxes as a business (in many countries
the process is different), how will you recruit employees, remote, developers,
sales, do you need to incorporate immediately, how do you do that, is there a
payroll/benefits provider you should sign up with, how much does that cost,
where can you get angel and VC funding for your company, are there any
conferences you should go to to identify customers or competitors, etc etc
etc.

There's a lot of stuff to do and learn to start a successful company besides
producing you MVP. Get them out of the way now and focus on honing your
programming skills. And if you don't like thinking about taxes and employee
benefits and balancing what you can afford against what you want to provide,
well, you might consider just working at a startup instead of starting one.

------
a-saleh
A.f.a.i.k. while I am not a lawyer, rule of thumb is anything you do

* on your own equipment

* on your own time

can be considered yours.

If you want to be extra sure, maybe consider first switching from employment
to consulting? A friend of mine was primarily a consultant in pc-game-
marketing space and then he founded a company, slowly building out a product.

On the other hand, I get that going for consulting gigs can be daunting,
personaly, I prefer the cushy job that is mandated to pay me a salary every
month, and to pursue my side-projects, I managed to negotiate a 4 day work-
week. In the end the 3 day weekend mostly became a venue for more family time,
but I still see it as a more viable future option, than working on a project
an hour after my kid is asleep/before she wakes up :D

~~~
m12k
Note that OP writes that they are from a third world country. That means we
don't know which jurisdiction applies, but it's not US or anywhere in Europe.
So IP and labor laws may be very different from what we would consider normal
or fair.

~~~
lawnchair
Ireland, Austria, Sweden, Finland, Switzerland and Yugoslavia are all third-
world.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_World](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_World)

~~~
a-saleh
From the position of the ost-block, Ireland, Austria, Sweden, Finland and
Switzerland, were definitely considered first-world western countries :-)

Yugoslavia is weird. But I would never dare insult somebody from former
Yugoslavia by suggesting they are from a third-world country, it would be like
asking for a black-eye :D (unless we are friends, and already drunk, then they
might suggest it themselves?)

------
beardedman
While I can't comment on the company related stuff, I'm also from a 3rd world
country and you can absolutely alter contract clauses. A contract outlines a
working relationship between an employer & an employee, it is not a slave
trade agreement.

~~~
9nGQluzmnq3M
The OP has presumably already signed the contract, which means it's going to
be an uphill fight to get the company to change them at this point.

There are also a number of large companies that will point blank refuse to
negotiate contracts, to the point of pulling the job offer if you don't play
ball. Of course they will still negotiate when they feel they need to, but
you're unlikely to have the necessary leverage if you're only starting your
career.

------
LaurensLang
The most important is to use your free time efficiently without burning out.

------
lostmymind66
If you contract remotely, you are less likely to have clause in your contract
that requires all of your IP outside of work to be owned.

Most small companies won't even have anything like this in their contract.
Larger companies, especially in California, will definitely include this in
their contract.

You said you are in a third-world country. Are you getting remote work in a
different country? If so, the likelihood that a company will spend the
resources to fight you in court in another country is almost 0.

------
akerro
Maybe this will help you [https://blog.ladder.io/business-
idea/](https://blog.ladder.io/business-idea/)

------
sturmeh
Before you do any development, ask legal for a written exclusion for your
specific project.

Do not rely on the fact it may not apply, if your idea generates millions, you
can be certain they'll manage to draw a connection.

If they can't/won't provide one, you either quit and work on it, or don't.

What they can't seize from you is your thoughts, unless again you're silly
enough to begin development without doing the above.

~~~
onesmallcoin
It almost sounds like the kind of place where if you were to' try too pull
something like that that it would go down fine, and you'd have your coworkers
chatting to you about it's architecture on lunchbreak and then six months down
the track you'll find your company releasing the same product

------
aliswe
Regarding "I am from a third world country, so I won't be able alter the
contract clauses", I dunno in what country you are working, but most of the
western world isn't like that.

Perhaps you think like that because you are from a third world country and you
are used to being abused by your employers.

(And it's not that I am western supremacist, actually I happen to like middle
east and asia better)

Look at some inspirational talks by non westerners, like garyvee for example.
He's immigrant. He's taken command of the situation. You can too. The only
thing enabling him to do so is knowledge, experience, and a unique attitude.

Over the years I've emailed CEOs, CTOs, and PMs of some of the most successful
companies in the world (and also a lot of professors), and you know what? Most
of them respond. They're just a little busy.

By the way, I have a question. Why don't you just ask?

Opening a dialogue is never wrong nor is it actually difficult.

Btw, read everything here:

[https://www.samuelthomasdavies.com/book-
summaries/business/](https://www.samuelthomasdavies.com/book-
summaries/business/)

~~~
boomlinde
Given that OP says that he can't alter the contract because he's from a third
world country, I assume that he'll be working in his home country. There's
nothing in the post to suggest that he is an immigrant or working abroad.

------
mfrye0
From my experience, as I did exactly that..

\- If you're looking for a new job, find one that has a good work life balance
and where you will learn skills relevant to what you want to do. In my case, I
was weak in dev ops, so I picked a job where I'd learn that.

\- As far as the legal front, a company can't own 100% of your time. When you
begin working on your own stuff, use a separate computer, and keep notes with
dates. Basically you want to show evidence, in a worst case scenario, that you
created this in your own time and not using company resources.

\- Then don't tell anyone about what you're working on until after you leave
your job. Once you leave, ideally everyone will think that everything you
built is post-job.

\- Once you leave your job, depending on what you built (if it's competitive
with your past job) it's good to tell everyone about it. My early investors
were my co-workers.

That's just stuff off the top of my head. Happy to provide more info if you
want. And best of luck to you! Starting a company is a hell of an adventure.

------
solresol
Two observations:

1\. If you look at the contract, there will almost definitely be a clause
where the company will claim rights over all IP that you generate, and that
you need to pre-declare any IP that you already own (otherwise they will have
the right to claim it). If there isn't, there should be and it's OK to push
back against it not being there.

Once that is sorted, write up a declaration of all the ideas that you have had
so far for your side hustle and submit it to the company. (You don't have to
go into detail: bullet points are fine.)

This gives both you and the employer the protection they are looking for.

2\. Starting a business is mostly _not_ about the IP of the software. I have
had customers go bananas over something that I spent a day writing. (I have
also had stuff that I spent a year writing go nowhere and never sell.)

Most of the ideas that you think are good will be impossible to sell
profitably. The first step in any business is establishing that there's a real
customer need, and that you can reach those customers. You will probably try
20 different ideas before one works. Buy adwords for them, or do some other
kind of outreach to customers and see what works: you also need to go and talk
to potential customers. (e.g. every Saturday meet up with someone).

Off the back of this you will eventually find something that works, that's
easy to sell and easy to explain, and you will probably have a backlog of
customers wanting to buy it. You will also discover that it's probably only a
few weeks' work to build the prototype. You can then approach your employer
and discuss what you want to do, and get an exemption to the IP clause, or
quit and use your savings.

If your first thought on starting a business is to start coding, you're
setting yourself up for failure.

------
dunika
Pencil out a block of time each day to work on your project. This can be time
spent researching, planning designing, building - the only rule is that you
can not do ANYTHING ELSE that isn't related to your project during this time.

At minimum this should be at least one hour a day but 3 hours would be ideal.

Schedule the time and stick to it religiously and you will see results.

------
codegeek
First, I think you have the right mindset and you are thinking about this the
right way. So that is a good start.

\- No one can stop you from learning. Learn what you need to to help prepare
you to do something of your own. BUT do not use ANY company
assets/laptop/network etc. to do the learning/research etc to be on the safe
side.

\- Build something. Yes definitely. On the side. even if just a concept.
Tinker with stuff. Again do it outside of your company time/assets etc.

Remember that most companies won't give a shit unless you actually become big
and noticeable. For example, I am sure google won't come after you for
creating something that makes you $10,000/Month and you did not directly steal
from them. I could be wrong but I am sure google has better things to do.

Finally, Do not let anything or anyone stop you from what you really want to
do in life. life is short and It is not worth living it doing things that you
don't want to do.

------
dahart
> I am from a third world country, so I won't be able alter the contract
> clauses.

I don’t think this is true. You can always request changes in the contract,
and you should consider it. It may seem expensive, but worth it, if you have
the money to have your own lawyer read your contract and propose modifications
that suit you. It may also reveal to you that parts of your contract were
unenforceable.

In my experience, it hasn’t hurt me or anyone I know who’s negotiated their
contract. In some cases, because it’s somewhat rare for people to negotiate
the non-compete terms, it made me look more confident and desirable than other
candidates.

BTW, there is no reason you can’t do this long after being hired and after
signing your employment agreement. Companies and lawyers can and do make
addenda after the fact all the time.

------
rubyfan
First, with respect to the IP ownership. Be honest with the company you are
joining about your entrepreneurial goals (it’s usually a quality that good
managers like). You may underestimate their willingness to be flexible.
Contracts are alway about setting terms, especially for future unknown
situations - if you expect a future situation to arise you can set the right
terms.

Second, being a good developer doesn’t always equate to launching a company.
The skills you might use to launch something new might not be your dev skills
at all. Understanding a problem/solution/market fit requires lots of skills
you won’t get writing software. You can/should do customer research, low
fidelity testing, etc. to prove to yourself something is a good idea before
jumping into a new venture.

------
AstroChimpHam
Save money. Get a job that pays as much as possible, even if it has shitty
clauses around side projects, and just save as much money as you can. When you
have 1-2 years of nest egg saved up (might be eating ramen, etc), then quit
and go work on your company.

------
nixonpjoshua1
Optimize for getting a job with lots of paid time off and which doesn't
require more than 40 hours per week (Government jobs are good for this) then
use the time and energy you have left over to explore your ideas and business
opportunities. Use this period to save up some money and quit when you feel
you can't go further without quitting (and have some money saved up) or you
are seeing significant traction. Also make sure that your IP is in a good
place given your employment contract and be sure to document that work you
have done outside work was in fact done outside work and to never use any
company resources or tools to do work you don't want them to own.

------
beshrkayali
> I'm from a third world country, so I won't be able to alter contract clauses

Just because you need a job doesn't mean you should accept whatever the
company offers. You should be assertive and inquisitive when it comes to these
kinds of clauses, especially at new jobs. I've had contracts altered slightly
or completely before starting with a company, from things like where and with
whom I get to work after I leave, to IP. Even if company says that this is a
deal breaker for them and that the clause has to stay, and you choose to
accept, I think it's good to at least demonstrate that your objection.

------
Tepix
No need for interviews.

Look for an idea. Then spend time researching the details, the market and the
competition. Find your niche. Interview potential customers. Find a co-
founder. Start building a prototype as a side project.

------
maremp
A side note:

> even startups paying $30,000 work for me

Value yourself and your expertise more. You should expect 2x or 3x the
mentioned amount from any respectable company, or even more if it's a position
requiring expert-level knowledge. You being from a third world country should
not affect your paycheck. If you're the same, or better, compared to someone
in the SV, you should both be valued equally.

You can get a better paying job, keep the same lifestyle, and save the extra
cash so you can afford longer breaks while you work on your stuff, or to
invest it, so you have additional cash flow.

------
lettergram
Regarding Pioneer.app, carefully consider. If I recall correctly they take a
percentage, if they want and they only provide mentorship not really a lot of
funds (some though).

I’d focus on an open source project in the realm of what you’re interested in.
Email your manager asking if that’s alright, print and save the email. Make it
clear it’s on your own time to improve your skills. Later use the open source
project to start your own business, if it pertains to it. Otherwise at the
very least, you’ll have gained skills and some credibility.

------
vmurthy
Many of the commenters have validly pointed out that you need to take care of
the legal aspects. I’ve a few questions from the other side of things: Have
you identified a customer segment and target group? Ideally these ppl have a
problem you’re trying to solve. Please validate that they indeed have a
problem. How? Talk to a few , research online etc. remember that
entrepreneurship involves multiple hats. Learn a bit of finance- it’s the
language of the business. Finally , Build , validate , learn repeat :-). Good
luck!

------
known
You cannot and you should not due to
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem_effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem_effect)

------
paxys
Companies can put anything in the employment agreement. What is enforceable
and what isn't depends on the country and/or state you are working in, so
starting there will help.

------
stockkid
Don't work on your project during the office hour, or allow your project to
affect your performance at work. There are two main reasons:

1\. The employer is paying you to help their product/service succeed. It is
unprofessional and immoral to deceive them. I've seen some colleagues do this
and I was disappointed in them.

2\. Work you produce at your place of employment belongs to the employer. It
depends on the contract and I am not a lawyer, but it's best to protect your
intellectual property.

~~~
eb0la
Also #1 leads to a situation where you don't put your 100% effort on either
side, and you'll fail miserably on both your job and side project.

 _BUT_ I think while you're employed you should try to learn how budgeting,
cashflow, capex/opex, taxes, accounting, etc. work.

This will be very helpful for the job you already have, and also for your side
project and _any_ future job.

------
allie1
You don’t need to own IP to start. Given how many companies fail, to get to
protecting IP is a long way.

Most initial steps don’t have anything to do with your contract - coming up
with ideas, learning, building MVPs, finding real needs in a market.

Once you find an unmet need and you prove that out, then you can think about
quitting your job to do it, or doing it while at the job (which i advise
against).

Also, you agreed to those terms so I don’t think it’s fair to abuse
their(company you are currently working for) trust.

------
mooreds
There's a lot you can do in terms of starting a company apart from writing
code.

Things like competitive research, talking to customers and meeting possible co
founders/team members out in the community. You can set up landing pages and
test the market and hire contractors to do some work. Also, talking to
customers (worth mentioning twice).

You can also read about starting a company (nolo books are good).

This will give you a foundation when you are ready that will put you ahead of
others.

------
codingdave
There is one phrase that coders need to look for in the inevitable IP
contracts employers ask for -- "related to the business that <employer>
conducts".

It is reasonable for your employer to ask you not to compete with them. It is
not reasonable for them to say not to do side projects. And that phrase, or
something similar, is what makes the contract say that. I always ask for it to
be put into employment contracts, and refuse jobs without it.

------
archevel
Would creating a GPL or BSD licensed project and then contribute to that work
(in case the employer allows work on FOSS)? Then one would presumably be free
to start a business using that software after quitting. Also if it's BSD
licensed there's nothing preventing one from close sourcing the stuff after
quitting. Of course the code would potentially already be out in the world and
used if it's in a public repo...

~~~
SteveNuts
Be careful, some employers consider any work done on any project during work
hours (or on company equipment) their property.

~~~
archevel
Wouldn't the fact that if they are ok with you working on FOSS protect you? If
you have the source you are free to modify it to you hearts content, right?

------
HNLurker2
> participate in Pioneer.app tournaments so I can network

Anybody has any experience with this. How did you got in? What was your
experience with it?

~~~
AlphaWeaver
I participated in Pioneer.app for several months, scoring near the top of the
leaderboard each month, being selected as a Finalist a few times, but was not
selected as a Pioneer. I wrote a long piece on my thoughts on this but haven't
published it anywhere yet, so here's the TL;DR:

We found the tournament valuable, since we were able to receive feedback every
week. The challenge of having to submit a progress update each week was also a
great motivator.

We eventually stopped participating though, for a couple of reasons.
Primarily, based on the time we were spending, and the returns we were
getting, it wasn't worth it anymore. As we went on, the comments and feedback
we received became less and less valuable, as other players continued to "game
the system." I also had some serious concerns about lack of transparency with
scoring, which made it hard to understand why we scored what we scored.

That said, a friend of mine was selected as a Pioneer and he says it's a good
experience. I like the team and they've been responsive when I emailed them. I
think the most important thing is to make sure that as you continue to
participate, you make sure the tournament is continuing to provide value to
you, like all things. It certainly was valuable to us at the beginning, but
eventually lost its value as we grew.

If you have any questions, don't hesitate to reach out. You can contact me
through Keybase, which is in my profile.

------
jmkd
Several books on this precise topic, The 10% Entrepreneur is one of the best,
full of useful info and practical examples.
[https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01AXE98UA/ref=dp-kindle-
redirec...](https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01AXE98UA/ref=dp-kindle-
redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1)

------
sakoht
Depending on your state, laws will work more/less in your favor. California
law makes it hard for a company to sue you unless you explicitly steal IP
and/or are a founder. Even non-competes don't hold up as well. If you work as
a contractor attempt to get your contracts to be governed by CA law.

~~~
mceachen
That is dramatically incorrect.

A company (and person!) can sue whoever they want, whenever they want, for
whatever reason they want. The claim doesn't need to be truthful.
Frivolousness of the claims doesn't mean it's free for you to defend against.
See "nuisance lawsuit." Several companies in SV are known for applying them to
ex-employees that didn't breech any legal or contractual obligations.

IANAL. THIS DOES NOT CONSTITUTE LEGAL ADVICE.

------
tmaly
Have you considered creating or contributing to an open source project?

If your strategic in your choice, you can build some experience in what you
want to do for your side project.

After you get a little bit of experience at the day job, you can always switch
to a new position that is more friendly to what you want to do.

------
ilaksh
My suggestion is to make a careful attempt to modify the clauses to specify
only related work done on company time.

If it is not possible, then work for them for awhile, save up, and try to find
another company. Be upfront with the next company about the issue before you
get too deep into the negotiation.

------
pawurb
I've described how I've built a probitable side-project while still working a
full time job here [https://abot.app/blog/profitable-slack-bot-
rails](https://abot.app/blog/profitable-slack-bot-rails)

------
vectorEQ
unless you work 24/7 your own time should still be yours. however, anything
generally developed / worked on on company resources is theirs. at least that
how it works for my contract. That means u can on your own machines and own
time make something for yourself. but if you ever once accidentally even load
it onto work computer, it belongs to them.

if they don't even let you do that, then i would firstly seek a job which does
let you work for yourself on your own time, and then start really pushing for
your own company. Learning how to do so is free for you to pursue, as long as
you don't 'make' anything on the companies' system / resources it should be
out of their sight and safe to do.

------
asdf333
hunker down and save as much money as you possibly can. it will take 3x longer
than you think and you will need the savings.

literally this is your most important job. build a savings buffer of 3 years,
at least. the bigger the buffer the less you will feel tempted to abandon it.

------
xivzgrev
I’m not sure we are getting full situation. Companies never have a full on
claim to all IP you do, rather only in certain circumstances

-using their IP -using their equipment -on their time

So get your own laptop, work on a side project outside of work hours, and
don’t start a company that competes.

Good luck!

------
simplecomplex
This is just an excuse you tell yourself to not start a company. A cop-out.
Nobody at your current employer is going to know or care you started a
company.

Don’t listen to most of the comments here, they’ve been brainwashed into fear
and subservience to their employer.

------
encoderer
Use your own time, equipment and ideas. Stay out of your employer’s market. If
you are launching publicly tell your manager so they aren’t surprised if THEIR
manager asks them.

This is a growth opportunity that will often make you more effective at your
day job.

Best of luck.

------
sam0x17
1\. try to build the whole thing for yourself in your free time

2\. if 1. fails, see if investors are interested with what you were able to
build

3\. if 2. fails, pivot to something you can build, if 2 succeeds, hire 1-2
trusted employees who fill the gaps you are missing

------
sexyflanders
I’d say negotiate away that clause or find another job. Company owning all IP
outside work for the duration of employment is in my opinion a red flag. I’d
not be surprised to learn they mistreat employees in other ways as well.

------
filip01
We're remote and side project friendly. Send me an email, filip at aevy dot
com.

------
mch82
A few people have written about modifying their work contracts. Can you share
the contract template you used instead? Can you explain how you negotiated the
change?

Edit: maybe engineers can team up on this so things start to change?

------
z3t4
Hire someone. Then you have a company. Just make sure that you are not
competing with your current employer! Ask your employer just in case if you
are allowed to run a side business. Its probably illegal to deny having a side
business if its not a competitor. Make sure your own company becomes its own
entity eg. it owns all IP not you, you are "only" the owner. Ask your employer
if its ok to work for another company too. It might be illegal to deny that.
Just make sure you are not competing. The all IP clause is to protect them
from rouge employee stealing IP. And might even be illegal in the exact
wording. When you start a company you want to get help with the paperwork then
ask the lawyer if there's any issues with you current employee contract.

------
claudiulodro
Does it need to be a tech company? My workaround for when companies have a
super restrictive IP contract is to work on companies that don't require
coding: eCommerce, local small business, blogging, etc.

------
rcardo11
I can only recommed you read this
[http://www.paulgraham.com/before.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/before.html)
Life changing

------
revskill
Abstraction !

You need to build strong tooling with abstraction to reduce, minimize boring,
repetitive tasks.

Only then, you can maximize your company hours to do your own stuffs.

------
lanevorockz
It’s called bootstrapping, there is a lot of reading available and even some
success stories to help you keep yourself motivated.

------
xwdv
Often we forget a company of one person is no company, it’s a _business_. A
company implies multiple people working toward a goal, often people forget
that, so start thinking about it now.

Start thinking about who you will hire. What will they do? How much do you
need to pay them? What skills do they need?

Begin with a spreadsheet. Estimate monthly cash flow. How many employees can
you afford? What’s the ROI from a single employee? In the beginning it may
just be you. Which employees even contribute to revenue and which are just
support? At what point does the ROI of the employee bring in enough revenue to
hire a second employee and have sufficient runway for the business? Then
figure out when you can hire the third, and the forth, and at what point (if
ever) does revenue grow enough that you can start hiring dozens of employees.
Does this business still make sense with this company?

How many hours do your employees work? What hours do they work? How much time
off do they get? How much does it cost you? As your headcount grows, your
revenue should be growing, but your costs also grow. Is there ever time to
make big company investments? Better offices or company getaways for morale
and team building? Do you even _have_ offices? Where do all these people work?
Surely you can’t all just be in a coffee shop somewhere. Do they work
remotely? If so then what time zones are they in, and how will you know they
can trust you or you trust them? How do you know they won’t steal from the
company, or do their own personal work while working on company time?

Who will do your sales? Initially probably you, but not for long, you have
other things to do. How will sales people be compensated? Purely commission
based? Maybe it works if you have a very high value product, but even then you
probably also need to give them a salary to keep them around. How much
commission? How long is the sales cycle?

How will you measure employee performance? How will you deal with non-
performers? How will you fire someone? With little to no mercy? Even if they
really need the job?

And how will you delegate responsibilities? When do you plan to delegate
spending decisions to someone who handles finances? When will you dedicate
someone to hiring people and managing employee relations?

All this and more are things you will have to confront if you plan to build a
_real_ company.

------
spodek
The book _Initiative_ is for this type of situation.
[https://www.amazon.com/Initiative-Proven-Method-Bring-
Passio...](https://www.amazon.com/Initiative-Proven-Method-Bring-
Passions/dp/1733039902)

[http://joshuaspodek.com/initiative](http://joshuaspodek.com/initiative)

Disclosure: I wrote it.

------
Kiro
Just get a cofounder and attribute all the IP to them. What can they do, steal
the IP from them?

------
perlpimp
How do I participate in pioneer.app ? Tried logging on and it did not work.

------
dlphn___xyz
you should see a lawyer about these things - its likely that your employer
will claim ownership on your IP if its similar to what they produce. in my
experience, its not worth the headache.

------
ravaan
You can work for Postman, they are currently hiring in Bengaluru, Karnataka -
India. They have a very open culture and even the company itself was a side
tool developed while Abhinav Asthana worked in Yahoo!

