
The cruel Catch-22 of being poor with no ID - dankohn1
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/what-happens-to-people-who-cant-prove-who-they-are/2017/06/14/fc0aaca2-4215-11e7-adba-394ee67a7582_story.html
======
jacquesm
Got to keep those poor people away from the polls.

It's interesting how the government here - NL - makes it mandatory for those
over 14 to have a photo ID of sorts at all times and charges money for those.
A government issued ID should be free of charge, especially if it is required
by the government to have one, and they set the prices.

That's still a lot better than the situation described in the article which
seems to be engineered to simply keep people in the hole once they through
misfortune or carelessness slip up. It's sad too that it should come to
volunteers to correct such situations, you'd think that the government would
really like its citizens to be able to take part in society rather than to be
pushed even further into the fringes.

~~~
sillysaurus3
Malice seems unlikely. There has to be some way to prove your identity, and
people have tried to impersonate others.

Is there a way to offer that kind of system while avoiding the concerns about
identity theft?

EDIT: After thinking it over, I guess identity theft isn't a big concern. It
seems pretty unlikely that someone would actively exploit this system to get
someone's ID, then their birth certificate, then somehow get a loan in their
name, or something along those lines. I hope someone with more experience can
chime in either way.

~~~
jacquesm
> Malice seems unlikely.

On the contrary, I suspect that is the most likely explanation. See, if there
were any other explanation then the government would go out of its way to
provide people without identification with the right identification.

> There has to be some way to prove your identity

There are many ways, for instance in some countries several citizens
themselves in the possession of valid identification go together with you
before a judge and swear on the penalty of perjury that you are who you say
you are.

> and people have tried to impersonate others.

Yes, and guess what that valid ID is meant to reduce?

> Is there a way to offer that kind of system while avoiding the concerns
> about identity theft?

Well, given that we have fingerprinting and biometric information these days
it is hard to think of what else - short of DNA - we could give up to offer
'that kind of system' but don't worry, it will still happen and probably in
your lifetime.

~~~
bluedino
Even if the government issues me a free ID I don't have to carry it and I can
tell anyone who asks that I am my brother

~~~
Swizec
Except in most of Europe where not having ID if you are an adult is illegal.
Not in the "We will go after you if you don't have ID" way but in the "If shit
happens and you can't prove your identity you are in serious deep shit"

Just like snow equipment is mandatory to have in your car but nobody cared
until you cause an accident or traffic jam because you didn't put chains on.

~~~
zurn
Citation needed?

~~~
Swizec
> According to a 1996 publication by Privacy International, around 100
> countries had enacted laws making identity cards compulsory.[1] In these
> countries, the card must be shown on demand by authorised personnel under
> specified circumstances. In some countries alternative proof of identity,
> such as a driving licence is acceptable. Privacy International said that
> "virtually no common law country has a card".[1]

> The term "compulsory" may have different meanings and implications in
> different countries. Possession of a card may only become compulsory at a
> certain age. There may be a penalty for not carrying a card or other legally
> valid identification (a passport, for foreigners); in some cases a person
> may be detained until identity is proven. This way the police can identify
> fugitives

On the list are 14 out of 28 EU countries if my count is correct. And a few
more European non-EU countries.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_identity_ca...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_identity_card_policies_by_country)

~~~
zurn
By that list, it does not sound like many EU countries require you to keep it
with you with threat of penalty. Certainly very far from "most". Netherlands
sounds like a strange exception to the rule with otherwise liberal society.
Serbia is a relatively recent civil war zone so kind of understandable.

~~~
jacquesm
NL is shameful in this respect. What's even worse is that the general public
totally bought the line that this would reduce crime. Instead, people are now
somewhat routinely booked for not being able to identify themselves even
though that's the _only_ thing they are doing wrong at that moment.

------
rayiner
I lost my wallet last year and simultaneously needed to get a passport on
short notice for a business trip. I borrowed $200 bucks from my dad to pay the
expedited passport fee, bought an Amtrak ticket with saved CC information to
get to the same-day passport office in Philadelphia, and proved my identity to
the passport office with copies of government employee ID cards and my law
licenses. Even then I dealt with administrators who didn't realize that the
regulations permitted you to get a passport with something other than a
driver's license. (I nearly had a breakdown when, after going through the
whole rigmarole to get them to issue me a passport without a driver's license,
I came back a couple of hours later and they wanted a driver's license to let
me pick up my already-printed passport. I was like "look at the f--king
passport you're holding, it's got a photo with the same shirt I'm wearing
now.") But I did get it, in the end, and getting a new driver's license was
easy once I had my passport.

Through the whole thing, I couldn't help but think how Kafkaesque this process
is, and what happens to people who don't have responsible parents who still
have their birth certificates, or who can loan them money to pay the necessary
fees, or who can't afford to pay extra to cut in the line? (And, frankly, what
happens to people who aren't blessed with the level of cognitive functioning
most of us take for granted, and can't figure out the dense procedures for
replacing their ID?) There is nobody in government who is actually out there
thinking of whether there is a path through this system for the most
vulnerable people; the people who have lost everything. They don't care.

~~~
techsupporter
> There is nobody in government who is actually out there thinking of whether
> there is a path through this system for the most vulnerable people; the
> people who have lost everything. They don't care.

I vehemently disagree with the stance that "they don't care."

I've been on the other side of the partition before. Do people come to their
government needing help with having fallen through the cracks? Absolutely,
quite often. On the other hand, do scammers do the same thing? Yep, even more
often. There are a _myriad_ of reasons to be cautious with identity paperwork,
especially in our "digital but not really because a lot of stuff is still
shuffled around in paper form" era of underfunded, understaffed, overworked,
and occasionally disinterested civil service.

"But, have a fucking heart and do what's right!" Damn straight, and every day
I tried my best to do that. But here's the thing: in my position, in a county
office that was a "jack of all trades" that handled many things from marriage
licenses to vehicle registration to property records, we lived in perpetual
fear of the local TV stations coming in to do some "sting" on how incompetent
we all were. In the two years I worked there, three out of the four TV news
departments sent "informants" in to try to catch us in some trap where we
weren't following the laws and rules To The Exact Letter. (It didn't help that
this was a relatively wealthy county sitting right next to one of the poorest,
and minority-population-level, in the entire state.)

If you drew the unlucky straw and unwittingly wound up with one of these
ringers and you didn't do everything _exactly_ By The Book, usually because
you tried to help by being maybe a little lenient on the exact list of
documents needed to get a certified copy of some record, you could count on
having your face-with-blurred-out-eyes plastered all over ad spots for the
next week. "Is the [county] County Clerk office putting YOUR CHILDREN at risk
for IDENTITY THEFT?! Are the government employees at the downtown office
UNTRAINED or MALICIOUS? Find out, when KZZZ NEWS AT TEN goes UNDERCOVER to
expose WASTE AND FRAUD in our county government. EXCLUSIVELY, TONIGHT."

So, yeah, I see the rock and the hard place that people of all stripes are in.

------
kevindong
I always wondered how people get IDs if: 1) they never got one while under an
age when someone else could vouch for them, and 2) they didn't have any of the
documents needed to an ID because to get those documents, you need an ID.

~~~
jandrewrogers
There is a surprising number of Americans in this situation, though less than
their used to be, partly by virtue of the fact that having an ID is not
required and unnecessary as a practical matter for much of the 20th century.
You'd have Americans with no birth records (used to be pretty common) who grew
up overseas when a passport was not required, such that they didn't even have
incidental records of their existence. It also used to be somewhat common in
very rural areas. Consequently, there used to be a significant number of
Americans who basically have no discernible record of existence prior to their
teenage or early adult years. My mother is an example in fact.

It used to be, as of a few decades ago at least, that you were whoever you
said you were and the ID offices would happily accept informal artifacts (like
family Bibles) as corroborating evidence, particularly in regions where
record-less Americans were endemic. Once you got your first ID, you could
chain off of that. These days I think it would be viewed with much more
suspicion if a person was record-less.

------
SeanBoocock
This echoes my experience working with homeless and at-risk people in DC
during the 2000s. Nearly everyone I knew who had been on the streets for a
significant length of time (> 3 months) was caught up in the bureaucracy of
securing housing assistance. Many of them faced the issues described in the
article around proper identification. All of them were frustrated by waiting
lists for affordable housing that stretched into multiple years.

I empathize with everyone involved here and I hope to see greater public and
political will around solving identification (and voter registration) issues
for disadvantaged populations.

------
Animats
If you've been fingerprinted and identified, ever, you should be able to get
copies of all necessary IDs from that alone.

~~~
SwellJoe
You'd think. But, you can't. The process depends on the state, but usually
requires a birth certificate and social security card, at the minimum.

------
SwellJoe
I've volunteered on homelessness issues over the past few years, and many of
my friends are homeless or have been homeless in recent memory. This is one of
the most frustrating and pointlessly cruel aspects of the society we've built
(among many frustrating and pointlessly cruel aspects).

I can sum up just how evil it is with one anecdote:

One night a few years ago, I got a frantic message from a friend on facebook,
something along the lines of, "Look at X's wall. Nobody has been able to reach
them." So, I looked at X's wall, and the last post looked very much like a
suicide note. Brief and somewhat cryptic, but given the circumstances of X's
life and some of the things they'd said and done in recent weeks made it
pretty worrying.

X, at that time, had been homeless for some time, off and on for years. They'd
been couchsurfing but felt like they'd worn out their welcome and didn't want
to be a bother. They'd been kicked out of their parents' house when they were
younger because they were gay. They were literally terrified of their parents,
and never want contact with them again. So, they had no contact with most of
their family, and the one relative who hadn't disowned them was a grandparent
without the resources to do much, even if anyone knew how to reach them. Even
calling the police was a questionable choice (which we ended up _not_ doing),
because they had warrants, and had traumatic interactions with police in
recent months.

X had been in public housing for a short time a couple years before, but had
been kicked out because their partner visited too often and stayed overnight
too many times (only married couples can do that, you see, and only in
designated housing), and due to some "behavioral issues" that stemmed from X
being on the autism spectrum (another reason to not call police) and the rules
of public housing being unforgiving. I've visited other folks in the same
building, and the rules are absurd. It's like a low-security prison; visitors
have to check-in/out, there is a curfew, etc.

Long story short, this was someone who's had a lot of setbacks in life, and
that night they just couldn't see a way forward. But, the most tremendously
horrific thing about it, to me, was that it _mostly_ boiled down to no ID and
no clear path to get them an ID. Without ID, no job. Without ID, no housing
(public or otherwise). Without ID, no future. The steps to getting an ID are
crazy difficult for a homeless person with no family ties and no records
available.

One of their exes found them a couple hours after our search started, and we
were able to get them committed voluntarily to a psych hospital while we
sorted out what they'd find when they got out.

When a few people stepped up to help get the ID sorted, and some other folks
raised enough money from friends to cover their rent in co-op housing for a
few months, they were able to get back on their feet. They're holding down a
job, paying their own rent and expenses, and have been doing well for a couple
years now. But, it took a fucking _team_ to get the ID problem solved, and
that's ridiculous.

If you ever go to any organization that provides services to the homeless,
you'll find that getting ID is one of their most used services. And, also a
challenging one in many cases. It's just one that nobody who's never lived it
really ever thinks about. But, think about having to keep all of your
paperwork _on your person_ or being always at risk of losing it. That's the
situation homeless folks are in.

This is further complicated by police who arrest homeless folks on spurious
charges and make them leave their things behind, where they'll be stolen or
thrown away before they're able to return. A life of total impermanence is
just unimaginably difficult.

I've rambled a lot here, but it's easy for me to get riled up on this issue.
Knowing what I know, and having seen what I've seen, it'd be very easy to
convince me that our system is built to intentionally destroy the lives of a
few at the bottom, and make it all but impossible for them to climb out, all
while people demonize the homeless as being a nuisance that should be pushed
out of cities (San Francisco, Austin, Portland, Los Angeles, liberal cities,
I'm looking at you, too).

It's all inflicted via mostly tiny cuts, that don't look like a big deal if
you've got a house, a job, an ID, a family, a filing cabinet with all of your
records, a bank account, a credit card for emergencies, etc. Even tiny things
can spiral into a disaster quickly for the very poor.

~~~
kej
To piggyback on your example, I volunteered at an organization who were
working with someone who had recently been released from prison but had no ID
and no access to any supporting documents.

The organization spent months going back and forth with the state to get an ID
issued. The state was sure he was the guy who had done the crime and should
spend years locked up, but wouldn't confirm he was the same person for ID
purposes. It was maddening just watching the process unfold.

------
fooker
How do you differentiate between 'poor with no ID' and someone overstaying a
Visa?

~~~
Retra
Light background check. Validate their fingerprints/photo against database of
Visa holders.

------
mobilefriendly
It isn't cruel, there are legitimate reasons the process is and should be
difficult. Document fraud helped the 9/11 attackers get driver's licenses and
ID fraud is a major part of many other terror attacks and funding. This is
also an identity theft vector, and numerous welfare/tax scams are built on
multiple and fake identities.

~~~
Retra
To paraphrase maxerickson in this thread: the process should be _secure_ , not
difficult.

------
koolba
So she didn't have any opportunity over the forty years prior to secure any of
those documents?

Having to deal with something like this at the same time as being evicted and
losing your mother is very sad, but that's not an excuse. It's a human
interest story.

~~~
jacquesm
> Having to deal with something like this at the same time as being evicted
> and losing your mother is very sad, but that's not an excuse.

It's the perfect excuse. Once you have no registered address it is only a
matter of time before you gain the accumulated 'benefits' that come with
having no status at all. Essentially you become an un-person, and your life is
just about forfeit. [1]

I take it that you have not experienced homelessness?

> It's a human interest story.

Yes, indeed. So take an interest in how these situations could be avoided
rather than blaming the victims of the system, it should be fairly obvious
that she's making a significant effort to regain her status as a documented
citizen.

Also note how IDs tend to expire and that if you have no registered address
you may not be able to apply for a new ID.

[1] [http://forum.schizophrenia.com/t/homeless-person-has-a-
life-...](http://forum.schizophrenia.com/t/homeless-person-has-a-life-
expectancy-of-47/59966)

~~~
jubabuba
I was homeless for two years living out of my car. I used a mail forwarding
service to maintain proof of residence and get id and stay registered
somewhere.

~~~
SwellJoe
Think back to when you signed up. What did you need? When I signed up, I had
to fill out USPS form 1583, and show _two_ forms of government identification
(I used drivers license and passport; the list of accepted ID for this form is
strict and non-obvious). My girlfriend couldn't be added to my account when
she started traveling with me because she didn't have the second acceptable
form of ID.

Now, imagine you also had to choose between your next meal and paying your
mail forwarding service bill.

I live in an RV and travel mostly full-time, and I use a mail forwarding
service, myself...but, even with that, it's sometimes a pain in the ass to
deal with the government. And, it's also not all that cheap. I spent about
$400 last year on mail forwarding for my personal account, and about the same
for the business.

Look, I don't want to diminish your experience here. You've been there, to
some degree, and I'm glad you got out of homelessness. But, just because
you've shared some of the experiences of being homeless, it doesn't mean
everyone who deals with this can follow the path you followed successfully.

~~~
jacquesm
In a nutshell: it is very hard to see privilege from the point of view of the
privileged.

Polish proverb: I thought I was as low as I could get and then I heard
knocking from below.

