
Working for someone vs. doing your own thing - thakobyan
https://tik.dev/dilemma
======
daxfohl
There's a pretty high correlation between parental wealth and success as a
startup founder. I assume it's because of the safety net.

My friends who have been successful (and who had blue-collar upbringings like
me, and all in mid-40's now) all worked full time jobs until their side
projects were self-sustaining. None of them hit unicorn status, but I think
all of them have lived healthy, fruitful lives.

Also note by "sustainable" I mean they had contracts worth substantially more
than their salaried job. Because to transition to that completely, you've got
to set aside time and money for so many things: insurance, legal, hardware,
whatever corp infra, recruiting, etc, as well as offset the risk. So I'd not
jump ship too soon, until you have a real plan on how to get your company from
A to B. Especially these days when tech salaries are so high, it'd be a
mistake to opt out of it too soon.

~~~
neonate
Given the research on adverse childhood experiences, there's likely a subtler
advantage too, for founders who were raised in more stable and secure
environments. Growing up under greater pressure (violence, abuse, trauma)
leaves you less resilient, more risk averse, more at risk. I'm not saying
wealthy families don't have this, or that poor families can't be stable and
secure. But on average it probably makes a difference. Call it an emotional
safety net.

~~~
daxfohl
Incidentally, I just got back from the annual checkup with my 7yo, and the
doctor mentioned that the strongest indicator of kids staying on a good path
through adolescence is whether they regularly have dinner together as a family
or not. That surprisingly exceeds any other socio-economic demographic
indicator.

~~~
davidgh
I’ve thought about this metric, a lot. There is no doubt that having family
dinner has a lot of benefits. But I can help but ask myself - is family dinner
a silver bullet, or is it that families who are holistically “doing it right”
also make family dinner a priority?

~~~
daxfohl
I also wonder about whether there is a _quality_ criterion there or is
quantity all that's needed. For example if most dinners consist primarily of
yelling at kids to sit down, eat vegetables, quit playing with food, just
hurry up and swallow it, small bites, not that small, no poop talk at the
table, inside voice, quit dropping your spoon, feet off the table, no kicking,
don't annoy your sister, STOP SHOUTING.... Does that count?

~~~
Enginerrrd
Actually, almost definitely yes! Those things you mentioned, despite being
friction areas, are actually loaded with all kinds of cultural and class
norms, and the fact that you have parents who care enough and are around
enough to be able to set those boundaries is a major selection criterion for
success in other areas.

That's not to say you can't screw it up. If family dinners are spent in
silence with the kids praying they get through the dinner without setting dad
off again and watching him beat their mom to a pulp, or hoping that they don't
get sexually abused later that night by one of their family members, etc. Then
yes, maybe there are some quality issues, but I'd argue even in that extreme
case, it might still be a positive indicator against the base cases of abuse
without that element.

I was a paramedic. There is a massive fraction of society with upbringings
like you wouldn't imagine. That's what you're up against. When people say they
have a dysfunctional family, it's often pretty mundane. Especially compared to
people in that class that didn't realize until they were an adult that things
like getting raped by all of their mom's boyfriend's isn't a normal thing
everyone deals with as soon as they start puberty.

------
tannerc
I like Austin Kleon's insights here [1]:

"A day job gives you money, a connection to the world, and a routine. Freedom
from financial stress also means freedom in your art. As photographer Bill
Cunningham says, 'If you don’t take money, they cant tell you what to do.'
Because the real truth is, once you start making money doing what you love, it
BECOMES A JOB. And with it comes all the hassle of a job."

It's why I've personally decided to work for someone else full time and then
use any time I can get outside my day job to do the things I really enjoy
(which are very profitable). The full time job enables me to be more
"creatively reckless" in my side projects, which in turn allows me to learn a
lot and stretch creative muscles I might not otherwise get "working for the
man."

1\. From:
[https://tumblr.austinkleon.com/post/69005574484](https://tumblr.austinkleon.com/post/69005574484)

~~~
kentrado
I would like to try that approach but I just don't have the energy after
working all day to come home and start investing time chasing wildly creative
projects.

~~~
spir
A hundred years ago a wonderful slender book was written, "How To Live On 24
Hours A Day" by Arnold Bennett. He suggests getting up early and doing your
passion projects before work.

[https://www.amazon.com/How-Live-24-Hours-
Day/dp/1603863680](https://www.amazon.com/How-Live-24-Hours-Day/dp/1603863680)

~~~
ruvis
But I get up at 4am already

~~~
fouc
That works well if you don't go to work on your full-time job before 9am

------
dvt
Not to be dismissive, but this post feels a bit like rambling without a clear
thesis or main argument. It's also rife with dubious claims:

> I’ve been working remotely for four years now, and I know that working alone
> can make you lonely..

I also work full-time remotely. I built a community around myself, made new
friends and regularly hang out with people I met at coffee shops, at startup
meetups, old classmates, ex-coworkers (that may also be fully remote), etc. I
hear it a lot, but this argument honestly falls flat on its face as long as
you're not a weird hermit that only works from your house. In fact, that main
reason I wanted to work remotely is because I get to meet people (particularly
women, as I'm getting to an age where marriage is starting to become a
priority) that I'm more interested in than in the myopic circles that are
commonplace at large tech companies.

> I like the idea that you can earn money while you sleep, but are those
> businesses fun?

Yes. Because it gives you the freedom to do whatever you want. And freedom is
fun. I mean, passive income is basically free money -- I'm not sure I'm
getting what author is saying here.

> I imagine working on your own thing full time and on the side are definitely
> not the same; it’s scary, to be frank. If my side-project became my full-
> time work, might my passion for my project dwindle and become yet another
> job? How would it differ from my current job?

I don't see how working for your own business could ever become "just another
job" \-- you're acutely invested in the venture, your strategic decisions
guide it's success (or failure). Working for a corporation is the definition
of "autopilot" for most above-average employees (engineers or otherwise). This
could not be more different when doing your own thing.

~~~
iherbig
>Not to be dismissive, but this post feels a bit like rambling without a clear
thesis or main argument.

The post opens with:

>This is more of a brain dump or an internal monologue. I don’t intend to
prove any point or convince you to start your own thing. Neither do I want to
reassure you that working for someone else is the best option for most people.
My goal here is simply to get my thoughts out so I can think clearly again and
rationalize this thing that’s been nagging me.

~~~
dvt
Missed this, mea culpa. Speed-read through the first few paragraphs, as they
seemed to be an extended introduction.

~~~
keiferski
"When people think you're dying, they really, really listen to you, instead of
just waiting for their turn to speak.”

------
overcast
Probably the biggest hurdle is dealing with healthcare on your own, it's just
prohibitively expensive to deal with alone in the US. Multiple incomes is
where it's at, at least until one of the projects takes off to cover cost of
living and healthcare nonsense.

~~~
tempsy
What is your definition of prohibitively expensive?

I've bought a gold plan off the exchange in California for Kaiser and it's
$530/mo with no deductible. That's lower than I expected.

~~~
Thorentis
> $530/mo

Wow. Just wow. As an Australian, I cannot fathom having to include $530 into
my monthly budget just to ensure I don't end up homeless (or heavily in debt)
if I get really sick. I'm not a socialist (I'm quite a centrist when it comes
to economic policies), but something about the US system absolutely must
change.

~~~
simpss
Not sure how it works in Australia, but if i break down my salary by taxes in
Eastern Europe, I'm paying 33% "social tax" which comes out to around
1900€/month. This breaks down further to 2 groups. One for pension and the
other for healthcare.

Pension is 20% from the total. (used to pay the current pensions)

Healthchare is 13% from the total.

This comes out at around 990€/month for "health insurance". There are
advantages and disadvantages to both systems, but I'm pretty sure you're
paying something as a tax for you health insurance and it's probably similar
to what they're paying.

To be fair, i'm well paid and a person with an average salary would pay around
250€ monthly. It's just the way our system is setup with a fixed % which
automatically creates tax brackets.

~~~
ChuckNorris89
Wow, you earn a lot for Eastern Europe. What do you do if I may ask?

~~~
photonios
Probably a software engineer. If you're a little above average, salaries are
very high. Most software engineers I know in Romania make at least 5 times the
national average. Good ones make up to 10 times the national average.

~~~
ChuckNorris89
Still, according to his numbers he makes about about €70k/year. That's more
than me and my friends make in Germany and Austria. Either Eastern European
salaries took off like a rocket or Germany heavily underpais.

Really curious what his job and location is, maybe I move there :)

~~~
photonios
That's before taxes I believe. So after income tax and social contributions,
you'll have paid 40-50% of that. Doesn't sound off to me. At least, that's the
case here in Romania.

Another interesting fact is that in Romania the tax system is simple enough to
always negotiate in net salary. Your employer takes care of paying taxes and
social contributions etc.

~~~
ChuckNorris89
So €70k/year before taxes is a normal dev salary in Romania? Are you sure,
since that's basically German level of salaries but with much lower COL. Do
you have any sources for this?

Because if that's the case I'm coming over to join you. :)

~~~
simpss
we compete on the same market, so we have the same salaries.

But the rest of the country doesn't, so we have the lower COL.

Give me a private contact and I can give you some concrete answers and tips
regarding the area.

~~~
ChuckNorris89
Cool. Drop me a line at the email in my profile please. Thanks

------
h00dui
I graduated the same time as you & had a side project that I handled for about
2 years at bigger co before making the transition to running with it full time
(now ~3 years)..

I can tell you the points that stick out the most for me:

\- i've learned a HELL of a lot. I've learned so much running through the
hustle life that comes with making these projects work & handling life around
it etc there couldn't really be a price tag on that. At first I was more or
less a hacker w some sales skills. Now I feel like I could handle ceo-coo-cmo-
cto type things all because I had too. These are lessons & knowledge for the
rest of your life. Even a generalist will be thrown constant challenges, I
guarantee it.

\- I had to make big adjustments to my social life. It's good you have some
remote experience because this one was a challenge. Deciding what to go to and
trying to spend time w/ community is difficult when you are trying to get it
all done. Spend energy and time in places you enjoy & appreciate. When I
worked at big co I would go to things all the time on weeknights and throw it
on the weekend but you cant really afford all those peaks as much when youre
on call as the boss. It's too taxing.

\- Self Care: Could really go a long way with this one but damn.. This is the
most valuable lesson I have learned. You have to watch over yourself. Like
Marshawn Lynch put it this past weekend.. "watch over your mentals, your
emotions, your chicken (i think he was talking about the body." Take some time
off to relax when needed, keep tabs on your body and mental well being & keep
close community who can help and support you when needed. It will go a long
way to have someone who can help you when you just need to vent or maybe have
a glass of wine ~ ~

\- I'm happier - I do a little bit of work just about every day but I'm also
spending a bit more time in creative areas that really make me feel good that
I coulnd't seem to get time for at a big co. I make less money but I can't
really seem to put a price on that "hey i'm gonna go surf cos waves are
crushing right now.. will do this when I get back" option. The ability to
control my time in life is one of the most valuable assets I have.

There is something about humans and how we think about what it is like on the
other side. Is the grass greener? Only one way to know ~ ~ good luck xX

------
opportune
Funny they compare working at a big tech company vs starting a business as
dichotomies. I actually think there is a lot to be said about saving up a lot
of liquid investments at big tech cos, then using that as personal runway/seed
capital for your startup. That is my plan, anyway.

Having a project that already has ARR is a massive headstart over most people
too. Especially if you are close to ramen-profitable, then quitting to run it
full time only requires sacrificing relatively assured opportunity cost.

I don’t know how it works when you’re on a visa but since I’m not, I know I
would probably just quit as soon as I had enough liquidity. You don’t have to
be married to your first business for life. It’s an amazing opportunity, not
only necessarily financially, but also in terms of learning potential.

------
dilippkumar
> I know what most people’s heuristics is when they face this uncertainty:
> think about ten years from now and figure out where you want to be. And do
> the thing now that gives you more options to get there. I wish it was as
> simple as most people claim. Looking back to the twenty-year-old me and the
> person I’ve now become, I see almost no similarities, interests, or passion.
> I was a completely different person back then and the only thing that has
> stuck with me after all these years is my love of soccer. How do people
> predict the future? Clearly, I’m no good at it.

This is actually the primary focus of a book I just read [1]. The author's
primary thesis in this book is that that there are some very interesting
reasons why we completely suck at imagining what a future life will be like.

This isn't really a book recommendation - the author took a single idea and
chewed it in 20 different ways to make a larger book. However, if this is
something you are struggling with right now, you might benefit from it a
little.

[1] Stumbling on happiness - [https://www.amazon.com/Stumbling-Happiness-
Daniel-Gilbert/dp...](https://www.amazon.com/Stumbling-Happiness-Daniel-
Gilbert/dp/1400077427)

------
gerdesj
"and I know that working alone can make you lonely. ... If I work on my own
business alone, I won’t have co-workers until I hire them."

In 1999ish I was approached by two chaps that I worked with and one of whom I
worked for (he was my boss.) Would I fancy being the Managing Director of a
new company thing they'd dreamed up? Nothing too grand, first customer was
where we worked already etc etc. Times have changed a bit now and we have some
customers that most people in the UK have heard of.

Our triumvirate has worked out really well over the years. We will never set
the world on fire but our little business keeps us and our 20 odd staff pretty
comfortable. Three directors has worked out very well for us. Two stops one
being a twat for example!

My advice is that you might consider finding and attracting a few allies but
you must position them carefully. Fill in the bits that you are shit at. For
example, if you can't be arsed with accounts then get someone in who will and
pay them properly with shares if they are an early appointment and you can't
give them readies now.

------
m0zg
>> If I work on my own business alone, I won’t have co-workers until I hire
them.

There's another, more subtle issue. If you aren't sitting on a million-dollar
seed round, there's a _huge_ energy gap between working alone and hiring
someone, even for a consultancy, never mind some kind of product effort on
which you work for a year before you get any revenue.

This is in part because of the additional taxes you have to pay if you're no
longer flying solo, and in part because of demands on your own time. Say
you're doing something solo and you're super strong technically and can do
what you do very efficiently. It's pretty easy to generate a ton of revenue
working in this way. It's also much easier to tolerate gaps or reductions in
revenue - you could just work on your own stuff and continue to pay yourself
from past revenues. Say, now, you want to grow, and hire people. But you can't
just hire people. Now you have to pay for their benefits, pay unemployment
insurance, etc etc. Moreover you have to manage them, which will reduce your
own "technical" throughput to basically zero. I've done a back of the
envelope, and for me it doesn't make sense to have fewer than 10 people in my
employ, since I can't skim enough off the top to justify my own loss of
productivity. And 1 person solo LLC vs a 10 person company are vastly
different companies in terms of business operations (especially bizdev and
sales), taxation, and regulation.

I'd theoretically like to grow at some point. But I don't know how to do it in
a sustainable fashion as a consultancy.

Being (overly) fiscally conservative, I would not feel comfortable hiring for
a more product-oriented business either unless it demonstrates traction and
upward trajectory. $1k/mo is not what I'd call "traction".

~~~
chrisweekly
Partnering informally with a "collective" of like-minded independents is one
way to thread that needle.

~~~
m0zg
Those independents are few and far between in my field, unfortunately.

------
mc3
A day job doesn't have to be your side project's enemy. If you do web dev at
work you get paid to do something that makes you efficient at web dev. Then
you go home and work on your side project and you don't need to spend hours
struggling with webpack or why str=((num || fallback) + '') works, so your
side project is done more productively too.

~~~
hanniabu
Come home at ~6pm, make/have dinner ~7pm, exercise ~8pm, get home and shower
~9pm. At this point there's not much time to do work, especially if you have
to go grocery shopping, do laundry, clean, have a family, or any number of
other misc things like get a haircut or have clothes dry cleaned.

~~~
mc3
A side project can be 2 hours a week. You can optimise making dinner so it
take less time (cook in bulk, make some meals salads). Exercise can be done at
home, probably 30 minutes in the morning and evening is more than enough.

~~~
hvidgaard
As with everything else, you have to prioritize - there will never be time for
everything. Meal prep and home exercise alone can cut that schedule down to
60-90 minutes, so you can begin on the side project at 7.30 pm.

~~~
mc3
7.30-9.30 would give you 2 a day. Say 2 nights and then on the weekends. 8
hours a week. That isn't much but the trick is to do something quite focused.

------
tinyhouse
I need to meet this guy. It sounds like I wrote this piece. I have exactly the
same thoughts and I also love soccer...

------
JoeMayoBot
Wondering how many other people are beginning to consider their future in this
way. It's interesting that he linked to the a16z post on Passion Economy. As
opportunities for remote work where each individual charts their own course
increases, the future of work could change significantly.

~~~
arvinsim
I don't see this work for everyone. In the HN discussion[1] about Passion
economy, someone mentioned that industries with the most creative and
"passionate" people, the distribution of rewards follows the power law. Only a
small percentage of the total industry will be able to capture the profits
that is sustainable.

So yeah, I am skeptical that this is the "future of work".

[1][https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21200795](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21200795)

------
luord
I have nothing to add that hasn't been said in other comments, so I'll comment
on something that surprised me a bit:

> Looking back to the twenty-year-old me and the person I’ve now become, I see
> almost no similarities, interests, or passion.

Comparing the me of now with the me who graduated college almost seven years
ago and I... am essentially still the same guy, only with a lot more money to
spend.

------
thaumaturgy
Funny to read someone else's musings on this as I've been working through many
of the same questions for a while. I started full-time in the tech industry
before I was out of high school, then went corporate, then got out for a
while, then back in, then had my own business for a while, sold that, got a
job for a few years, and recently left that job and went traveling for a bit
to think about things and consider going back to full-time employment or work
on a project and hope it makes enough to survive on.

> _Do I have to choose it now, or can I do what I’m doing now and decide
> later?_

If you're thinking about it now, then you should start figuring it out, or
you're postponing the inevitable and these questions will be on your mind
every day.

> _If so, why are these questions disturbing me now and not in the future?_

Possibly because you are dissatisfied in some way with what you're doing now.
A good chance that you're finding it comfortable but not stimulating.

> _How do most people work out what’s the right path for them to take?_

Most people don't, and don't believe the ones that say they knew in advance
what the right decisions were. None of us can see clearly into our possible
futures; we can't see in advance the successes we'll have or the mistakes
we'll make. The best we can do is to understand our motivations when we do
make a decision, and then at least be at peace with that decision no matter
how it turns out.

> _Does it have to be either or can you do both things together—have a full-
> time job and do your own thing?_

If you want to live a balanced life -- i.e., without all of your waking hours
behind computer screens -- you should choose either/or. Working full-time and
trying to put real energy into a side project doesn't leave much time for
anything else, and it will cause both your full-time work and your side
project to suffer.

This isn't to say that people never manage to pull this off. Some people make
it work out. They are the exceptions that prove the rule.

> _Looking back to the twenty-year-old me and the person I’ve now become, I
> see almost no similarities, interests, or passion. I was a completely
> different person back then and the only thing that has stuck with me after
> all these years is my love of soccer. How do people predict the future?
> Clearly, I’m no good at it._

Congratulations, you're a normal, healthy person that's still growing and
maturing. Keep doing that.

> _I wonder whether, as we grow older, the rate of change in our interests
> slows down too?_

It hasn't, for me, and I think I'm at least 10 years ahead of you. Nor has it
for any of my more interesting older friends.

What _does_ change is the gradual realization that you won't have time for all
of your interests. Being a dilletante is a lot of fun while in your 20s and
30s. Some manage to have fun continuing to dabble in a bit of everything for
many more years, even into very old age. Other folks start to feel like they
might be missing out on something by just grazing the surface of their
interests, and start to consider whether their time might be better spent
focusing more intently on just a few.

> _I imagine working on your own thing full time and on the side are
> definitely not the same; it’s scary, to be frank. If my side-project became
> my full-time work, might my passion for my project dwindle and become yet
> another job? How would it differ from my current job?_

Your project _should_ become your full time job. You should maintain the
discipline you have in your current job and resist the urge to fritter time
away here and there.

But it will be different, because you'll be investing in your interest, and
despite it becoming your job, you'll still feel an ongoing sense of
satisfaction at being solely responsible for your success or your failure. If
you wake up one morning and have a great idea for your project, you won't have
to convince middle or upper management, or enlist a sales team, or wait until
the next company all-hands. You'll just do it.

And that can be really rewarding, and it can also be a great big trap you fall
into, without anybody else holding you accountable or challenging whether your
next idea is a good one or not.

~~~
thakobyan
Thank you for your insightful answers.

------
j45
Doing your own thing often means working for clients which means working for
someone .

------
trumbitta2
Being alone is easily fixed by a coworking space

~~~
posedge
Not speaking from experience here, but I don't think it's the same. I'm
guessing there's a churn of people, so no long-term relationships, also since
you're not working on the same thing you have less of a connection with them.

------
hownottowrite
Cached Version: [http://archive.is/vgHTv](http://archive.is/vgHTv)

------
cryptica
These days, you either work for a company as an employee, or you work for
cartel as an entrepreneur.

------
cfontes
Why not both?

------
r34
I never use term "working for someone". I can work "with someone" as a part of
the team. In my native language (Polish) "employer" could be literally
translated as "workgiver", which is a complete bullshit, because "work" is not
a social construct, but kind of relation between living organism and nature
(and only because of that it is derivately social).

