
Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There? - rmason
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/23/business/emmanuel-macron-france-technology.html
======
pilooch
I run a machine learning company in France. Call it a startup or not, doesn't
matter. Most of what I read in the comments here is not exactly true nor
relies on statistics (sound like my story is...).

For companies acting within the science or innovative space, France is a
haven. CIR is a tax return that covers 30% of R&D personnel, JEI is a status
that halves the taxes on personnel for 8 years, and nullifies gov taxes the
first year, halving them the second year. Add to this the region and gov
backed projects that match 50% of your investment in a project.

The truth is it is much much cheaper than in the US, and probably unmatched in
Western Europe. Now, all this preexisted Macron.

Some hurdles remain investment, low margins for companies around 20 employees
and 2M yearly, they get stuck at that stage and lack of transparency.

One major pain is interacting with large French corporations, with payment
delays unheard of in the US. This slows many startups down when it does not
kill them. Once bootstrapped it seems to get better.

I'm not sure what a startup nation is not whether I'd like to live in it, but
France is certainly in good position to fuel early small innovative &
scientific companies, not more but not less :)

~~~
kakwa_
CIR is a huge joke, it doesn't help small companies that much. Big companies
are far better at collecting it than start-ups.

On paper, CIR is for research and development efforts, basically it's for
efforts that improve the state of the art.

But in practice CIR is a tax break/subvention in disguise for medium to big
french companies like Orange, Thales, bnpparibas...

Just to give you an idea, at one of my former job, an email was sent to every
employee of the division. This email asked us to provide our CV rewritten with
"research terms" (ex: replace implementing by prototyping, debugging by
experimenting, etc). We were CIRing projects in pure maintenance, we were
CIRing the same thing over and over each years. It was clearly abusive.

I've heard stories that are even worst than that, like banks CIRing an overall
of their website.

~~~
reacweb
The fact that big companies are using CIR as a mean to get money from the
government does not imply that it does not work for real research companies.

------
rdm_blackhole
Hiring and firing people in France is particularly hard. Most companies do not
scale beyond 10 employees as after this threshold the regulatory burden
increases dramatically.

Taxes on small to medium businesses are downright confiscatory.

Most French people still see business owners as exploiters of their workers.

~~~
chillidoor
I wonder how big the contractor market is in France. I mean, contractors are
easy to hire and fire so it could be a good compromise (at least in the short
term).

~~~
charlesdm
Not living in France, but Belgium (similar market to some extent): 99% of
people don't want to work as a contract. They want a long term, "indefinite"
employment contract.

~~~
JeanMarcS
This, exactly. France (and Belgiul as it seems) is a country where most people
goal is to work for a government job, or equivalent.

The status of a job for government is tha tyou CAN'T be fired ! Whatever
stupid thing you do, whatever you work or not, you can't loose the job.

It's also less payed than a job in a private company, and you almos know
exactly what will be your income on the last year you'll work, but it's safe.

And for big companies, the union are mandatory, so it's almost the same. Hard
to be fired.

And that's why beeing an entrepreneur in France is so hard and not understand
by most people. Why take risks ?

------
Legogris
Just sharing another experience:

I am a technical manager at a small-size big data company. We opened a new
office in Paris three months ago and our largest struggle by far is recruiting
talent. Despite what other comments here are writing, the startup scene is
booming. Station F[1] is huge. The four WeWorks are full and they are opening
two more soon. Global companies like Microsoft, Google, Facebook and Naver are
growing their presence. New companies are popping up all the time. Despite the
academic strength of France in Computer Science, there is simply not enough
supply of senior engineers in France to meet the demand. A couple of years ago
Paris was lukewarm and we managed to open up in the midst of frying heat. I
have met both Berliners and Parisians who say that there is more happening in
Paris than Berlin right now.

The language divide is definitely a thing. We are an international English-
speaking company and that works both for and against us.

(We're called Kaiko[1] if anyone reading this wants to reach out and connect)

[0] [https://stationf.co/](https://stationf.co/)

[1] [https://www.kaiko.com](https://www.kaiko.com)

~~~
rdm_blackhole
Correction, there are enough devs but the salaries are too low, so they go
elsewhere like I did. I am not going to work 40+ hours a week or more to make
2500 euros and pay 1000 euros of rent in Paris. Whats the point?

Also, Paris is a crime-ridden city that is way overpriced.

~~~
flaie
Exactly, there's a lot of cool stuff going on in Paris, but seriously it's
underpaid for the price you have to pay to live there.

From where I live I could work in Paris with the same commute time than I do
by working in Luxembourg, but I get a better paycheck.

Renting a 2 bedroom costs 700€ a month where I live, in Paris it would cost 2
to 3 times this.

I don't get the "there's not enough engineering available", this is just not
true, reality is that people will earn a lot more in London, Luxembourg,
Switzerland, so they chose that.

~~~
mayniac
>I don't get the "there's not enough engineering available", this is just not
true, reality is that people will earn a lot more in London

Not by much [1][2], and rent is worse in London[3]. I think income tax is
fairly comparable.

From personal experience the same salary goes further in Paris and quality of
life is better than in London, although I never officially worked in Paris so
can't comment too much. The nightlife is certainly better. Also Switzerland is
crazy expensive so even if you're earning more it won't matter, pretty much
everything you buy day to day is about 2x as expensive compared to anywhere
else.

[1] [https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/london-software-
enginee...](https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/london-software-engineer-
salary-SRCH_IL.0,6_IM1035_KO7,24.htm) [2]
[https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/paris-software-
engineer...](https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/paris-software-engineer-
salary-SRCH_IL.0,5_IM1080_KO6,23.htm) [3] [https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...](https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=France&city1=Paris&country2=United+Kingdom&city2=London)

------
benwilber0
I don't know much about the startup landscape in France (or anywhere in the
EU), but I've always heard that it is difficult to incorporate a small company
and hire employees due to large regulatory/bureaucracy hurdles. The "move
fast, break things" pattern of setting up a Delaware LLC and getting an angel
seed in a matter of days/weeks really just doesn't work.

Can anyone comment on this? Is this way off base?

~~~
JumpCrisscross
Recently helped a friend launch a French subsidiary. It is a pain.

First, you must pay a lawyer or formation agent to write and register your by-
laws. Next, you must seek an introduction to a bank manager. With that
secured, you get to draft a book report of a business plan. This is tedious
and pointless. Once completed, the bank manager reviews it. (They will also
ask for lots of personal documents, each requiring expensive notarization.) If
they approve, you get a business bank account. Into this account you must
deposit no less than €4,000. Unfortunately, these funds are frozen until you
get your _extrait Kbis_. That won't happen for at least two weeks.

Now you have to buy an ad in a French newspaper. These are expensive. After a
week or two, papers will arrive in the mail. You take these to the Commercial
Court, where a bunch of agencies on different floors will stamp them. With
those stamped papers in hand, your €4,000 will be unfrozen. (Usually. On the
next business day.) Finally, you have to appoint a French accountant. They
continually monitor your business and continually charge you fees. Now you can
business!

Meanwhile, in Delaware, 24 hours and a few hundred dollars buys you an LLC. A
bank account, set up online or in person, can get you going the next day.

~~~
rdm_blackhole
And that is not the worst part. When you sell your company, you may have to
wait between 6 to 9 months to get your money!

Basically, taxes are always delayed and to calculate the exact amount that you
owe to the diverse government agencies, it takes an army of accountants.

Even sometimes the accountants do not know what is going on as the tax laws
are always changing, sometimes at the last minutes. Meanwhile, you have sold
your asset, your money is stuck in escrow for more than 6 months, you have no
revenue and no money. Welcome to France!

Source: my parents sold their business in October last year and just got their
money a week ago.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
The advice I was given, by a competent European lawyer, was to set up a
Luxembourg S.A. which, in turn, was to hold asset-light subsidiaries in each
country. (This is how Spotify is structured.)

~~~
JeanMarcS
The problem is, when you're resident, it looks like you try to avoid taxes.

And government doesn't like that. At all. So if you're small, they won't miss
you when they backfire at you :-)

------
altharaz
To those who talk about the administrative & HR issues in France: these are
definitely true.

However, the government is running two programs that will try to improve these
elements[1][2].

For instance:

\- the French Public Investment Bank (BPI) will receive more money in order to
create a better leverage for fund raising, co-investing with private funds in
startups;

\- France will work with European Union to create the european equivalent of
the DARPA challenges;

\- France Expérimentation will provide exemptions to some startups trying new
business models;

\- new APIs will be provided to help accomplishing administrative tasks
automatically;

\- public contracts will have lower entry barriers;

\- public aids (which are really important in France) will be simplified;

\- the HR thresholds will be reviewed in order to promote startup growth;

\- a study will be conducted on "renting contracts" for startups (most
contracts have a 3/6/9-years engagement clause, which is not adapted to
startup growth);

\- corporate tax will be lowered;

\- ...

This is not perfect and we are indeed accustomed to a lot of rules and
administrative work, but still: it is good and motivating to see that the
government is trying to do something.

Moreover, we have great landscapes and food, so let's give France a try :).

[1] [https://www.numerique.gouv.fr/actions-startups/elements-
de-p...](https://www.numerique.gouv.fr/actions-startups/elements-de-portee-
generale/) (in French)

[2] [https://www.pacte-entreprises.gouv.fr/](https://www.pacte-
entreprises.gouv.fr/)

[edit] styling

------
gnicholas
It has historically been difficult to fire employees in France, compared with
the US. Apparently they considered relaxing this policy on 2016 [1], but IDK
whether their efforts were successful.

Considering the Silicon Valley mantra of “hire slow, fire fast”, it will be
interesting to see how things evolve in France. Will they relax their labor
laws/customs, or will they find a different way for startups to grow?

1: [https://www.pri.org/stories/2016-05-13/france-employers-
reso...](https://www.pri.org/stories/2016-05-13/france-employers-resort-
harassment-drive-employees-away-not-much-longer)

~~~
gregoriol
There has been an "Auto Entrepreneur" status created a few years ago (2010?)
that is used by many startups (mainly gig-economy like drivers/delivery/...)
which has helped a lot to get started. It's not an employee status, more like
a contractor status. It's easy on the company, but not like freestyle though
as abuse could be re-qualified as a regular contract ("CDI" ie. employee
contract) by a judge.

Regular employment is still much protected for the employee.

~~~
JeanMarcS
Yes. If you have only one client, it's considered as desguised employment.

The difference is that the wellfare taxes as Auto Entrepreneur are very low
compared to en employee, for the same service in hospital or doctors.

------
zenovision
I doubt that France will be able to do this - they have many disadvantages
comparing to USA:

\- high taxes

\- a lot of buerocracy

\- language burden to attract high qualified foreign employees

\- lower salaries

\- fragmented political system in the EU

\- much lower population in France comparing to USA and if you want to cover
the entire EU, you have to support many different languages, currencies,
etc...

~~~
desu_
As a French, it saddens me a bit to say that but you also missed one point:
culture. My background includes some grad school experience at a _top_ French
university and then at a _top_ US university. One big difference, which became
even more obvious to me after I crossed the Atlantic, is that there is
(almost) no _hustle_ culture in France.

Make fun of the stupid apps and the copycats but so many undergrads at my
American alma mater were trying something, and that is already so much more
than what I saw in France. I have seen some undergrads in America make
_serious_ money through their side projects and big companies are more often
seen as a stepping stone towards something else. In France, the holy grail is
to get a _CDI_ (permanent employee contract) at a big company and that’s often
pretty much it. They can be great employees but making money within a
structure simply does not require the same resourcefulness. I don't know if
the culture is contagious once you arrive in a country, or if universities
attract different profiles (probably both), but I thought it was also
interesting to note that the immigrants were often resembling the locals in
both countries.

In my opinion, even the best version of Macron’s plan is bound to produce
underwhelming results. While French taxes and bureaucracy might not help
entrepreneurship, I do not think that’s why France isn’t a startup nation.
Rather, it’s the fact that France isn’t a startup nation that explains why bad
policies and bureaucracy have been tolerated for so long. Understand me well:
my comment is the opposite of an attempt to diminish the accomplishments of
French entrepreneurs, who exist and face higher administrative hurdles than
their American counterparts, but is simply written to share some observations
on campus culture and entrepreneurship at two _top_ schools.

~~~
jcelerier
> In France, the holy grail is to get a CDI (permanent employee contract) at a
> big company and that’s often pretty much it.

Well, there are reasons for this. Good luck getting a loan for your next house
/ car / whatever if you don't have a CDI.

~~~
heavenlyblue
The question is, why are these based on CDI? I believe the parent is making a
good point: if this is a cultural thing, the first question that comes to your
mind is "why are not being as conservative as everyone else and not just going
for an easy employment?"

------
nkkollaw
I understand why a small percentage of startups could benefit from being in
San Francisco and similar and want to enjoy the ecosystem, hire people, etc.

However, I have no idea why any early-stage startup would go to France and
last 3 months, while with the same money they could go to Poland and enjoy the
same level of support from the government, availability of highly-skilled tech
people, and twice-4 times the buying power compared to any other similarly
attractive country in Europe.

While I've never even come close to creating an even barely successful
anything, I would think that being able to survive for 6 months can make the
difference compared to running out of money after 3 months. I mean, the
3-months guy would totally miss a big contract at month 5.

~~~
lkrubner
The risk of going to Poland is that the government of Poland is currently
expressing views that are extremely hostile to the EU, and therefore you must
take into account the political risk that Poland might try to pull a stunt
like Brexit -- at which point you find that you have been building a business
on the assumption that you are inside of the EU, and now you suddenly find
yourself outside of the EU.

I have thought about setting up an office in Krakow. I've been impressed with
every software developer I've worked with from Poland. But settling there has
some serious political risks.

Poland seems to have the best of both worlds, with an independent currency,
but otherwise inside the EU. It is worrisome that the Poles feel the desire to
destroy this.

~~~
nkkollaw
You believe what you believe because you read European newspapers, which are
anti whoever doesn't comply with what Germany says.

Poland is absolutely NOT hostile to Europe, on the contrary (sorry, I couldn't
find a source right now). Italy and other countries are a huge percentage more
against Europe than not Poles.

Poland simply doesn't need to lower its wages like Germany did, and has
therefore no interest in letting in any of the extra hundred of thousands of
migrants that hang around across Europe thanks to Germany opening the borders
to them. That would significantly increase crime--which is virtually not-
existent in terms of personal safety in Poland--like it happened in Italy and
I assume other countries, and cost a ton of money that is currently put into
much better and more productive use.

The government is extremely stable. If you read about extreme Catholic-based
laws, it's just because that's what they believe in, and after a few years of
"West no matter what" following their independence from the Soviets, they are
now trying to find their own identity--which is like it or not extremely
Catholic and nationalistic. I don't necessarily love those laws, but I'm not
Polish and I have different values. The US has it even worse, with laws
dictating what sexual positions are legal and which ones are illegal in many
states--and no one is complaining.

From a business point of view, I have a company that I opened in 1 day. You
have the right to issue invoices from the minute you apply, the government has
1 week to send you a tax ID # (I got mine via email after 3 days). Everything
is done electronically, via a trusted profile like your bank account. It's
extremely efficient. Taxes are a joke compared to what I'm used to (Italy at
45%): 19% flat. My accountant is EUR 40/mo., but you can find cheaper ones (by
comparison, my accountant in Italy cost me EUR 120/mo. because of the
bureaucracy involved).

Many people don't know a lot about Poland, and what they know is pretty far
from the truth.

------
kolp
My experience as an anglophone, non-French entrepreneur living in France is
that the regulations and business climate reflect the belief system of the
population. There is a fairly widespread acceptance, even among well educated
French people, in several of the following beliefs:

\- Companies are exploitative of their workforce and should be strongly
regulated to protect workers;

\- Excess company profits are a sign of unfairness and abuse, and maximum
profits should be controlled to protect against such unfairness;

\- The role of an organisation is to provide employment;

\- Unemployment can be reduced by making it more difficult to fire employees
or make their positions redundant;

\- France's international uncompetitiveness, especially vis a vis Germany,
could be solved by making other countries similarly uncompetitive by imposing
similar burdens.

My partner is French and a Human Resources consultant to medium and large
organisations. The horror stories she recounts would make most entrepreneurs
run a mile.

My business is online and I can locate it anywhere. I've chosen Ireland for a
variety of reasons. Eurozone, English speaking with good multilingual talent
availability, good international transport and relatively light touch
regulation. Tax rate wasn't a significant factor because the effective rate of
tax (after factoring in state subventions) is relatively similar between the
two countries.

France is a great place to live but a terrible place to run a business or to
hold capital assets. The high taxes pay for a very good public health system
and a good transport system. Unfortunately, they also pay for a huge amount of
public sector waste.

France for startups works well if you're well connected, in which case you're
made. Connections are, however, largely forged early in life, in Lycees and
Grand Ecoles, so connections and networks are much more difficult for an
outsider to penetrate.

As an example of French business mentality, my friend's business
(online/social) has few actual users and no paying users and is 100% supported
by a mix of grants and supports from a myriad of government organisations, and
by large corporations who are obligated by government to set aside an annual
budget for supporting such endeavours. My friend's business is considered a
success in France. I consider it a personal success for him, insofar as he has
navigated the system quite well. But it's not my definition of business
success.

~~~
JPLeRouzic
I am French, but what you wrote is exactly how I feel the French mindset is.
Thanks for writing it.

------
mabynogy
It's not real. If it was, YC should be involved (because they are the best at
that). It's a old story because he needs to talk about something.

The previous governement created a fund for that. It is nearly totally
unaffected
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bpifrance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bpifrance)).

He does nothing because there is nothing to do. France destiny is sealed by
european threaties. To change something the treaties must be broken but people
are afraid by that. France is in a waitstate until something happens at a
global scale (like a war).

------
lurena
I'll go ahead and be 'that guy' and say it: I don't want my country to become
a startup nation. I don't want management methods and labor laws to be
reformed, or modernized, or to mimic those in the US. I don't want
corporation-friendly tax rates to be enacted. I don't want regulations to be
lifted.

There are, give or take, 65 million people in France. (Incidentally, this
number is also, give or take, the amount of Americans who live in the most
abject poverty seen in the developed world.) Not everyone among these 65
million is fit to 'move fast and break things'. Not everyone wants to be
flexible, adaptable or able to sell themselves in a world of fast hires and
firings. Not everyone is a young and dynamic entrepreneur full of 'innovative'
ideas (whatever that means). In short, not everyone is a twenty-to-thirty-
something with a moderately high level of education and relative affinity with
the tech world.

On the other hand, _everyone_ needs a steady job to make a living. _Everyone_
needs the healthcare, retirement plans and other benefits our current labor
laws entail with that steady job. In short, _everyone_ is a human being with
basic human needs.

Startups have one thing in common - they tend to fail. Maybe your average HN
reader will be able to endure the typical working conditions with no guarantee
of a stable income in the future, but they are the exception, not the rule. It
is preposterous to imagine that an entire country's labor laws and regulation
should align with the needs of such a narrow demographic so that foreign
investors will _maybe_ deign to notice it and shower said demographic with
money.

Yes, there are many things wrong with our current labor laws. Yes, maybe some
regulations are needlessly tight and stifle the growth of blooming startups
full of bright people. No, that does _not_ mean the US as a 'startup nation'
is an example to follow. And if that means the next Facebook or Instagram
won't come from here, so be it. Many of these startups tend to produce
services that are superficially useful at best or actively harmful at worst.
We don't need them.

~~~
jdminhbg
> There are, give or take, 65 million people in France. (Incidentally, this
> number is also, give or take, the amount of Americans who live in the most
> abject poverty seen in the developed world.)

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

~~~
maeln
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States)
65 Millions is a bit exaggerated but not too far from the truth.

~~~
geezerjay
> 65 Millions is a bit exaggerated but not too far from the truth.

The only objective number mentioned in wikipedia's article is 43 million, but
apparently that figure appears to be made up, as it is based on a single
citation of an obscure and unavailable document published by an organization
that calls itself Talk Poverty.

Nevertheless, even if we take that 43 million number at face value, that means
that OP's exaggerated number would have an absurd margin of error of around
50%.

~~~
imdutch
Cry me a river.

It's data from the US Census Bureau, it took me 7 seconds to find the correct
reference:
[https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publicatio...](https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2016/demo/p60-256.pdf)

It does not matter the guess was a bit off, the argument still stands.

------
chillidoor
I seriously doubt it. There are just too many hurdles to get over. Even trying
to get staff from another EU office to come and work is a pain the arse, as my
previous place of work discovered when they tried to get one of the devs to
move to Paris for a few months.

------
nopless
I am curious about the real number of founders in this thread? It seems that
most of the replies are focused on system criticism… and it's a completely
false statement. Creating a startup in France is really easy to do if you do
it well. Take an accountant and he will handle almost everything for you, from
the creation to the run. Man Power is cheap compare to the USA. The only
limitation seems to be the motivation… and to become a founder you are going
to need a lot of motivation !

So what are the difficulties: 1\. Market 2\. Money

The initial market is small. This means that you need to go directly to
international business. We have Europe but the point is that Countries are a
little bit too patriot. From this point, addressing the USA market is really
difficult without having a headquarter there, even with fully digitalized
services and English native commercials. Don't know why but you can read
Criteo founder's feedback on this point. Addressing China is almost
impossible. So here is the point: to address Europe and USA you need huge
funds.

Money is easy to get at the beginning and you have a lot of public helps on
this phase. Then it's more difficult (>2M€). VC market is clearly not as
developed as in the USA. That where most of the startup ends… Best case, you
will raise money in the USA and move there. Otherwise you are looking for an
exit.

That will be my conclusion. France is a very cheap place to buy a startup !
(An no such bureaucratic barriers).

~~~
tajen
Well, I’m a founder... French paperwork is incredibly stupid (beyond any
necessary explanation), and, for no employee, I pay my accountant 2800€ to
handle said paperwork.

Second, tax deduction and grants... There are full companies whose job is to
get grants for others. But if you don’t know the right law or the right grant,
you pay the higher tax. I’ve lost at least 150.000€ with that on my first 8
years, although I did have an accountant to advise me on this, which means I
struggle on my first employee.

Last, the marxist culture. As long as you earn money, you’re assumed to be an
asshole, so you constantly have to remind people how much donations you make
and how much you’ve worked to earn the right to earn your own money. It’s
quite unhealthy to say the least. For 100k€, I give 63k€ to accountant and
various taxes, donate ~1k in money in average (and 1% products) and
participate to local education. Yeah, I’m flagged as a selfish guy by
outsiders (not interns, my interns love their job, my internships are way
above average).

Besides, Macron said there are too many white males in IT, so you’re welcome
to leave. Just to set the expectations.

~~~
nopless
Well 2,8k € per year (small startup) or per month (half time accountant) is
nothing. How much will you pay in the USA?

Regarding fiscal stuff. I am afraid to say that this is the same in all
countries... You better know the fiscal laws or request help from someone who
knows. In any case, you are refering to 19k per year... It's not what we can
call a strong showstopper!

Regarding 2 last points, it's clearly your point of view and I don't share it.

------
jjcm
I'm seeing a lot of arguments in this thread against starting a business in
France, so my question is this: outside of the US where would you start
something?

~~~
kolp
Ireland - Eurozone, English speaking, light touch regulation, strong IT and
customer support culture. However the high cost of accommodation in the
cities, particularly Dublin, is starting to make recruitment difficult. I've
anecdotal evidence of several 20-30 year olds looking to emigrate because they
can't resolve the high cost of accommodation with their after-tax salary.

~~~
heavenlyblue
Good luck hiring fast against the large IT companies over there.

~~~
kolp
There are a lot of good potential employees who don't want to be a part of the
"burn 'em and churn 'em" practices employed by some of the larger IT
companies. But, I agree, it's always a struggle in any country for small
businesses to compete in the recruitment process with large corporations.

~~~
heavenlyblue
Ireland is an entirely different matter: it’s hard to find people on LinkedIn
for example, since many of them are only in Ireland due to being hired by
corpos with huge offices over there.

That’s not the case for London as people don’t generally move to London purely
for a better salary as companies don’t get a tax discount over there.

------
duxup
How far has he gotten with labor law changes? I some HR folks complain at a
company I worked for a while back. They complained that if someone in France
was going to be fired there were three different government departments that
may choose to get involved and sometimes each had a different idea on how the
situation should be handled.

~~~
walshemj
Do you mean fired for cause or redundancies over a certain size - the USA has
that procedure as well (WARN Act) you know.

~~~
repsilat
Holy excluded middle, Batman :-).

Most of the US[1] are in "at will" employment states, in which individuals can
be fired without cause. This is probably what the grandparent was comparing
France's law to. The WARN act probably doesn't bear a great deal on the US's
place as a "startup nation"...

1: by area, population or state count, including California but excluding New
York

~~~
walshemj
I think your missing the point you can get fired for gross misconduct quickly
even in states in the EU with stronger employment laws.

If at will makes it so easy why are US employers including startups terrified
of firing people - look at all this obsession with not making a bad hire if it
was truly easy to fire this would not be the case.

~~~
repsilat
> terrified of firing

They aren't. From experience, startups have no problem firing people for
simply not being exceptional.

Startups _are_ worried about wasting time, though -- the cost of a bad hire is
taking longer to get someone good to do the job, because it's going to take
time to realise they aren't performing, and it's going to take time to do the
search again.

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merinowool
Maybe start-ups as groups created in large companies that take on copying
emerging US enterprises? Small companies are not supported in the EU because
of regulatory hurdles, excessive taxation and employment laws one size fits
all. Most businesses are grant driven - that is you write a business plan that
satisfies bureaucrats, get money and hope to stay afloat for year or two so
you don't have to give it back. Rinse and repeat. There is no room for
innovation. In some EU countries entrepreneurs are treated as potential
criminals until proven innocent.

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tradedash
what does "startup nation" even mean?

~~~
matte_black
Israel is an example of a “startup nation”.

Edit: Downvotes!? Israel has the most startups per capita of any nation. Look
it up, not doing homework for you.

~~~
adventured
Israel has so many start-ups and so much VC, solely because of the vast
capital investment flows from the US. That's hardly a reasonable example for a
large nation like France to work from.

It'd be like pretending Ireland's $70,000 GDP per capita is organic, rather
than the result of US corporate giants using it as a tax device.

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amelius
Why does the concept of "startup region" even exist? Given that work has
become more and more intellectual rather than physical, and products more
virtual than physical, I would expect that geographical location matters less
and less.

Is it based on superstition of investors?

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erikb
Politicians are weird. The start-up idea itself is slowly dying and now they
start to really become active about it in politics. What's the point? Merkel
also was in Shenzhen in her China trip.

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6t6t6t6
Most of startups fail miserably. Some become extremelly successful.

That's what Macron wants for the country he manages?

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40something
Culturally it can’t happen. They need their own version of Trump to erase 3
regulations for every new one. In addition the youth have zero ambition due to
the strong safety net.

~~~
mtremsal
I'm curious, are you arguing that the US was not a "start-up nation" before
Trump's election?

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auvi
does anybody know how the France Tech Visa thing going on?

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pwaai
I actually looked into this with the local France Business startup
organization. At the time, I was young (30, I am now 31) and started learning
French with hopes of trying out a alternative to Anglo culture.

But reality hits hard. I don't know how I would be able to adjust from living
in a multicultural and laws where minorities are protected and enforced to a
republic where it is not. Once you are in France, you are expected to become
fluent to the point of having no accent, because god forbid if you come from
Quebecois speaking region you will get bullied and made fun of.

So it's like wtf???? Here I am learning your culture and trying my best but it
won't mount to shit if it's not French.

Very dangerous to set elusive set of criterias based on ethnocentric ideas and
see what sticks.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQzR6zKpbKQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQzR6zKpbKQ)

The most crazy part is that it's other minorities attacking other minorities
in France.

~~~
grumpydba
This is just outrageous. The republic tries to protect everybody. If you
expect us to drop our wit and our views on a proper lifestyle to be more
inclusive, indeed please move along. Globally we still despise politically
correct as a poison to our freedom. And most of us are fine with that. Little
anectode here: in IT I've worked with people of all backgrounds and never saw
any issue. Young people's pride can turn them into divas...

~~~
schrijver
Not outrageous at all; France really has specific problems dealing with
multicultural society. The meritocratic republic is such a great idea, that
people fail to see that it doesn’t always work out in practice. Fighting
racism (for example racial profiling by the police) becomes a low priority,
because there isn’t supposed to be any!

As a white foreigner working in France, it remains pretty benign, but quite
visible--i.e. the boss laughing about your accent.

~~~
grumpydba
Racial profiling by police is indeed a non issue. Was born and raised in the
suburbs, the most dangerous ones, and the profiling is done according to the
attitude and the clothes, mainly. And thats the experience from my friends,
with différent backgrounds. And boy do people in the suburbs have a bad
attitude ! Quit providing excuses for criminals, it is a disservice To them.
And overestimating the racial issue is the best way to isolate groups
according to race, and in the end, create a hate able to cause civil wars

~~~
pwaai
> And overestimating the racial issue is the best way to isolate groups
> according to race, and in the end, create a hate able to cause civil wars

holy fuck

~~~
grumpydba
Indeed it erodes solidarity, little by little.

