
Schools Struggle with Vaping Explosion - Zeta_Function
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/02/health/vaping-ecigarettes-addiction-teen.html
======
TheBeardKing
>The 2017 Monitoring the Future survey on adolescent drug use found that 11
percent of 12th graders, 8.5 percent of 10th graders and 3.5 percent of 8th
graders had vaped nicotine in the previous 30 days. Of those high school
seniors, 24 percent reported vaping daily, which the study defined as vaping
on 20 or more occasions in the previous 30 days

I'm sorry, but is <10% of high schoolers an "explosion"? Obviously
e-cigarettes are more appealing than tobacco products, but regular cigarette
use was 15.8% in 2011 [1]. Marijuana use is at close to 6%, so not that big a
gap from the apparent "explosion" of kids vaping.

[1]
[https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/yout...](https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/youth_data/tobacco_use/index.htm)

~~~
cbhl
Yes. That means that in a school of of 360 kids (30 students * 3 classes * 4
grades), ~36 of them are now nicotine users through vaping. You may as well
dedicate an entire classroom to holding detention.

The US was slowly reducing the number of middle schoolers who smoke
cigarettes. According to the CDC, cigarette use dropped from 4.3% in 2011 to
2.2% in 2016. [1]

This would be a 5x reversal in less than a year. That's huge.

[1]
[https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/yout...](https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/youth_data/tobacco_use/index.htm)

~~~
jacobolus
Cigarettes cause high rates of lung cancer, killing tons of people. It makes
sense to heavily discourage teenagers from using them. As far as I am aware (I
am not an expert about or user of any of these products) the risks from vaping
are much less severe.

Is the concern just that the activity is nominally unlawful? Or that it will
be a “gateway drug” (is there any evidence of that)? Or that it is a waste of
students’ time? Or ...

Or are we worried about stimulants in general? Or is there still some
significant cancer risk from vaping? (Are people freaking out about high
school students drinking too much coffee?)

If students are just replacing cigarettes with vaping, that seems like an
unambiguously positive development.

~~~
Scaevolus
It's less severe, but nicotine alone is carcinogenic.

~~~
bjlorenzen
Could you please source this claim? A quick google search is revealing a lot
of contrary evidence.

~~~
eagletusk
Nicotine is considered a nootropic that increases cognitive ability. Perhaps
the kids are using it to up regulate their brains?

Studies here: [https://www.selfhacked.com/blog/28-proven-health-benefits-
ni...](https://www.selfhacked.com/blog/28-proven-health-benefits-
nicotine-4-potential-risks/)

~~~
vkou
From what I recall of being a kid, kids are using it to get social validation.

Also, because once you get addicted, nicotine withdrawal is bloody awful.

~~~
narag
I'm always surprised that the main reason people smoke is not cited first.

For all you that haven't done it: smoking causes pleasure. A fast, intense and
repeatable pleasure.

~~~
vkou
As someone who's never smoked, but has stood next to people who have, I would
guess it does quite the opposite. I imagine most people who don't smoke think
this.

~~~
s73v3r_
The first times you do it, it feels pretty good. Really good, in fact.
However, like any drug, you develop a tolerance and a dependence. Before long,
you require it to feel normal, not to feel good.

~~~
narag
That's not my experience and that's not the experience of any smoker I've
known.

I quit smoking years ago and of course I strongly discourage people from
smoking, it's very bad for the health, etc.

But spreading disinformation is not the way to fight it.

Edit: BTW, the first times you do it are the worst. While you get used to the
smoke.

------
neaden
I think it is very important for everyone to keep in mind that vaping is
probably safer than smoking. But it might not be, we don't know for sure. And
it is certainly worse than not consuming any tobacco product. So trying to
encourage active smokers to switch to vaping is probably beneficial, but
increasing overall tobacco consumption rates is bad.

~~~
lemonberry
My father's been smoking for over 50 years. I got him to switch to mostly
vaping last year. The difference in his health has been profound. It almost
eliminated his coughing, increased his ability to walk distances. His doctor
was amazed at his last checkup. She said she couldn't recommend it to patients
due to the uncertainties, but encouraged him to keep doing whatever it is that
he's doing.

Edit: I bought him the vape after a friend that's been smoking for a long time
made the switch and raved about the benefits. I don't doubt that the best
course of action is to quit altogether, but a 50+ year addiction is pretty
difficult to quit. It can be done but you really have to want it. I don't
think my dad really wanted to quit. I know that seems silly, but given his
circumstances I can understand.

~~~
reitanqild
Another benefit I've seen a number of times is that people seems to have an
easier time quitting. (Based on my sample of < 5 coworkers that switched to
vaping.)

The pattern, as explained to me and IIRC, was as follows:

Started vaping insteadof smoking.

Tried vape with less nicotine. Worked equally well.

Tried with half strength.

Tried with even less. Also worked.

At this point it just felt silly so they just stopped.

(Note that these where young people.)

~~~
lemonberry
I also think it's kind of a controlled dose thing. When one smokes a cigarette
it tends to be the whole cigarette, whereas with a vape you can take a couple
of hits, get a fix and put it down.

~~~
corobo
When looking for this I think it's useful to note that immediately after
switching the amount of vaping can be huge. I was actually experiencing
nicotine rushes and nausea in some cases when I first started

The problem I had was that a cigarette has an obvious stop point - it runs out
- whereas a vape will go on as long as you have juice and power.

Over the 6 months or so getting used to it I've been vaping it's started to
fizzle out. I know, n=1, but I think it's something worth noting in case
people see an increase in nicotine intake immediately after switching

~~~
miragle
When I first tried a disposable cigalike this happened to me. I was previously
smoking just under a pack a day, but without an obvious stopping point I found
myself using the whole thing in a few hours, when it was supposed to be
equivalent to a pack. Because of this, when I started using a sub-ohm tank, I
only bought 3mg liquids (the lowest available). I could vape it as much a I
wanted and it took pretty much constant vaping for 10 minutes to feel slightly
unwell from the nicotine, so this worked very well for me.

------
mchannon
A generation ago these kids would've gotten busted for smoking old-fashioned
cigarettes ("Smokin' in the boys room"). Two generations ago it was legal to
buy (at some states at age 16) and legal to possess and use, except on school
grounds. Three generations ago it was legal even in doctor's offices and
hospitals.

California and Massachusetts (and oddly enough, Mississippi) are stoking up a
new hysteria with public health spending in an effort to keep people of all
ages from switching from conventional cigarettes to e-cigs.

I see six-figure earners on the sidewalks of San Francisco smoking old-
fashioned cancer sticks and very few vaping. I wonder- did my tax dollars
dissuade them from upgrading their habit? Second-hand smoke is substantially
safer from vaping, but actual health of nonsmokers must not be these states'
priorities.

There are rumblings about regulating nicotine content in real cigarettes. If
they were to regulate vape juices (like limit the worst precarcinogenic
bases), I think that's a much better (and cheaper!) place to devote public
resources.

~~~
ams6110
Only a generation ago smoking was still allowed at many high schools. It was
at mine (1980s). There was a designated outdoor smoking area for the kids that
smoked.

~~~
pducks32
I wonder if they had one now, only for cigarettes, how many kids would do it
and withstand the social humiliation that exists with teenagers around smoking
cigarettes.

------
kevindong
I never understood why anyone young would start smoking. Throughout my K-12
education, I was told every single year that smoking is bad and all that jazz
(i.e. shown pictures of what a smoker's lungs look like, shown documentaries
on the negative effects, etc.).

It definitely isn't for lack of trying of my school district's part, and yet
high single digit percentages of my peers in high school were using some form
of tobacco/nicotine when I graduated in 2015.

It's well settled science that using these types of products cannot possibly
be good for you. It baffles me why anyone would intentionally create an
addiction/habit that, at absolute best, is neutral for your health.

~~~
s73v3r_
"I never understood why anyone young would start smoking"

To look cool.

No, seriously, that's one of the main reasons. To look cool in front of one's
peers. You might not have cared about such things, or feel pressure to engage
in them. If so, I'm happy for you. But that doesn't mean others don't.

~~~
bonesss
Superficial habits are also an easy substitute for personality, something
teens are eagerly trying to develop. Everything from hair dying to wearing bow
ties are 'normal', vices carry all kinds of extra social signaling.

------
nradov
A lot of those kids are probably self medicating with nicotine for stress /
anxiety / ADHD. I've never been a user myself but it seems like for many
people who get nervous and have trouble focusing, a little nicotine helps
steady them out.

Edit: To be clear, I'm not recommending that anyone, especially children, self
medicate with psychoactive substances.

~~~
bungie4
Nicotine is a stimulant, not a depressant.

Do you take Meth to 'even out'?

Me, I just quit smoking entirely 3 years ago.

~~~
lemonberry
The biggest lie of cigarette smoking: that it relaxes you. When you're a
nicotine addict and crave it you get anxious, nicotine fixes that.

~~~
Jare
In my experience, when I had regular or constant anxiety, the nicotine crave
blended with it but smoking calmed both. It is very possible that a non-
nicotine method of relaxation would have also worked on both, but those are
rarer and/or less quick and convenient.

That was one of the appeals of smoking.

~~~
lemonberry
Interesting. I should have written that was my experience. Anxiety isn't
something I typically experience unless I've drank too much coffee or, when I
was a regular smoker, needed a cigarette.

I take it you're a non-smoker now. I wonder how a vape would affect that.

~~~
Jare
Yeah after 20 years smoking, I had minor (unrelated) surgery and had to stay
at home for a couple weeks, so I just cold stopped smoking and that was that.
I am curious too but I refrain from experimenting.

~~~
lemonberry
Congrats, it's a hell of a habit to quit.

------
julienmarie
Smoking per se has been a behaviour for thousands of years. As much as there
will always be effects on health, vaping has been a god send for me. I have
been smoking 1+ pack a day for nearly 20 years, until I switched to vaping 9
months ago. I feel incomparably better. My resting heart rate went down by
20%, I breathe better, am way less tired, and it doesn't stink . Plus, there
is a geeky aspect with what we call RDAs ( rebuildable vapes ). Yes, we do not
know the long terms effects, but the chances to be worse than cigarettes are
close to 0. Also, this article is full of references to studies that have been
flagged as partisan and not seriously conducted. Not smoking / vaping is
better, but for an ex-smoker, this is a godsend.

~~~
verylittlemeat
I always find it interesting to remember that smoking tobacco was unknown in
Europe until the colonization of the Americas.

------
bob1029
I think we have a bigger problem with stimulant abuse in general. The
perception of caffeine and nicotine (and god forbid the various amphetamines)
as "safe" is incredibly deceptive. I have seen the differences in myself in
terms of productivity, sleep quality, etc. which cannot be fully-quantified on
some medical study or quarterly performance reviews. We have an entire
generation of young people entering the workforce who cannot go 30 minutes
without taking a vape break outside. Sure, this doesn't directly impact the
individual's health or immediate perceptions of work effort, but over time the
impact is gradually discovered. The individual cannot sit still in a chair and
focus on a complex/deep-dive topic long enough to reach an actionable
conclusion. The other extreme is the individual is hyper-focused on one task
(usually the amphetamine users) to the extent that they begin to ignore all
sense of context and lose focus on the bigger picture. For most employment,
this is usually not a concern, but for those who have to dive incredibly deep
into complexity on a daily basis (engineers, programmers, architects, etc.), I
feel it can be the difference between getting something done in 4 hours and
getting it done in 4 weeks. This perception is also something incredibly hard
to quantify, but I have witnessed several anecdotal examples (some in myself)
which I am confident can be attributed to excessive use of stimulants.

~~~
troncjb
> We have an entire generation of young people entering the workforce who
> cannot go 30 minutes without taking a vape break outside

This is the most absurd hyperbole I've heard so far this week. Granted it's
Monday so you had a lot working against you. An entire generation? Every
thirty minutes?

------
tabeth
Who does this stuff even benefit? The seemingly arbitrary lines drawn between
marijuana, alcohol, tobacco and other "drugs" is so weird. So much moral
righteousness.

~~~
kurthr
The people selling it... (often illegally) to kids, who then have trouble
getting a basic education and develop habits, which are long term destructive
to their ability to operate within society.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Mid 30s adult here who used an e-cigarette for a year or two when alone in the
car for funsies (flavors smell nice).

What, exactly, is the problem with kids vaping/using e-cigarettes if they
don't contain a controlled substance (THC or nicotine, in these cases). We
don't ban kids from consuming caffeine, so what's the problem with inert
vapors? I agree that the liquid to be vaporized needs to be regulated to
prevent health issues, but that's no different than the FDA regulating food
safety.

~~~
neaden
The problems that I see with that are. 1\. Vaping still isn't that healthy for
you even if everything is ideal. Heating something up and inhaling it is never
going to be that healthy. Add in possible contamination in the liquid, issues
with not cleaning the vape etc. and you are always going to have some health
problems. 2\. It makes it easier to then switch to nicotine once they have the
vape pen since the psychological and financial switch is less to just try it
out once. 3\. It makes it harder for schools/parents to know who is consuming
a banned substance vs. an unbanned inert vapor.

I think a blanket ban on vapes for everyone under 18 and a ban on tobacco for
21 and older would probably have beneficial public health impacts.

~~~
toomuchtodo
> I think a blanket ban on vapes for everyone under 18 and a ban on tobacco
> for 21 and older would probably have beneficial public health impacts.

That's a fair compromise, although I'd like an outright ban on cigarettes. If
someone wants to vape to get their nicotine, or chew gum, fine (I am a
supporter of safe recreational drug use). But smoking has been proven to be
downright ruinous to your long term health.

Disclosure: I am putting a Kickstarter together to use GMOs to eliminate
tobacco long term.

~~~
drewmate
> Disclosure: I am putting a Kickstarter together to use GMOs to eliminate
> tobacco long term.

Could you elaborate on this? It sounds interesting, but it also sounds kind of
"Scorpio-like" [0] like you are some Bond villain plotting to take over the
world's tobacco supply with a genetically modified super-tobacco that will
strangle other tobacco at the roots unless farmers pay you for weed killer.
[1]

[0]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tnod9vtB4xA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tnod9vtB4xA)

[1] [https://www.roundup.com/en-us](https://www.roundup.com/en-us)

------
SnowingXIV
I'm pretty against the pro-vape movement because I believe there are plenty of
kids now who now choose to vape who would have _never_ smoked anything in the
first place previously. It seems a lot easier to convince someone to vape
because it appears safe and they already know all the risks of cigarettes
which eliminated that of being a possibility (good!).

------
ghostbrainalpha
Reading these comments its obvious that Vaping is forcing us to confront an
uncomfortable truth.

Vaping might not be that much healthier for the _consumer_ , but its widely
popular because its so much nicer for the _non smoker_.

How much of the campaign to stop smoking was out of concern for the health of
future generations? And how much of it was out of the annoyance of second hand
smoke?

Even if Vaping proves to be equally dangerous to cigarette smoking, our desire
to stop it just isn't in the same ballpark.

~~~
Zak
I'm OK with that. I believe people have a fundamental right to make their own
decisions about what to put in their bodies, but not to expose others to
harmful or unpleasant substances.

I'd like there to be more information on the health effects of vaping so that
people can make better-informed decisions, but I doubt it would have a big
impact. The health effects of smoking have been well-known for decades, but I
think we didn't see significant declines until it became less socially
acceptable.

------
013a
One problem I think the industry has right now is the "gas station disposable"
ecigs, like Blu, Vuse, Juul pods, etc. These things have _massive_ amounts of
nicotine, sometimes as high as 30mg/ml which puts the hit right up there with
cigarettes. Combine it with the fact that they taste like candy and can be
vaped indoors with no ill effects, and its a recipe for addiction.

More traditional e-juice can range in nic content from 0mg/ml to as high as
40-50mg/ml, but the most common variants you see are 3mg/ml and 6mg/ml.
Relatively low compared to the gas station stuff.

Its also worth saying that the two aren't directly comparable due to the
action of vaporization. Gas station ecigs are pretty bad at generating vapor,
which means you get less vapor on each inhale, which means less actual
nicotine. Reusable, higher tier vapes that you use with usually lower nic
juice produce significantly more vapor. So its hard to compare.

Which comes down to the biggest problem in the world: regulation and
standardization. Its a complete wild west. You have no idea what standards the
e-juice manufacturers hold themselves to. The "brands" on many juices are
hidden behind flashy flavor names like "Quadruple Laser Berry". There's an
advertised nic content, but who knows if that's actually what's in there.
Often you can purchase nic strengths that are _absurd_ , like 40-60mg/ml, that
would make any reasonable person instantly puke. Physical stores will often
card, especially if you look young, but there are many online retailers where
you can buy whatever you want with no verification. There are states where you
can't legally buy this stuff online, but most online retailers don't care.

~~~
mrob
Seeing as nicotine is a known risk, but the carrier fluids and flavorings are
a mostly unknown risk, isn't higher nicotine concentration better? You can get
the same dose with less exposure to the unknown risks.

~~~
013a
Not really.

Nicotine wears off very quickly. While it can remain detectable in your system
for days, the feeling it gives only persists for 10-15 minutes after inhale,
if that. Varying the dosage only really affects the intensity, not duration.

Speaking of intensity; if you don't have a tolerance, high levels of nic can
be physically and mentally uncomfortable. Someone who can comfortably inhale
3mg/ml of nic might get slightly nauseous and uncomfortable even at 6mg/ml,
definitely at 9mg/ml, unless you have a counteracting agent in your system
like alcohol (which is why "leveling out" is a thing).

The chemically addictive properties nicotine has is only one part of the
story. There's also the "throat hit"; the feeling of inhaling something warm
and slightly uncomfortable. That's a _major_ part of the addiction.

It also tastes great. And its "something to do"; kind of like a fidget
spinner, it keeps you busy.

~~~
mrob
>Someone who can comfortably inhale 3mg/ml of nic might get slightly nauseous
and uncomfortable even at 6mg/ml, definitely at 9mg/ml

That only makes sense if there's a standardized inhalation size, which there
isn't. I've seen people using vaporizers specially designed to make huge
clouds, and they're obviously using low concentration. If they used a stronger
concentration they could get the same effect with a smaller inhalation size.

------
loeg
> In his four years at Cape Elizabeth, Mr. Carpenter says he can’t recall
> seeing a single student smoke a cigarette.

Golden age syndrome. It happened, you just forget about the negative parts.

Anecdote: when I was in highschool quite recently (2004-2008), many students
were regular smokers or dippers (chew tobacco). At this point, the health
effects of smoking (and to a lesser extent, chew tobacco) were obviously well
understood. Nevertheless, students picked up smoking etc.

Picking up vaping nicotine probably isn't great, but it beats cigarettes (and
probably chew tobacco).

The important thing to remember is that overall drug and alcohol use among
American teens is down, and trending down. "According to a major longitudinal
study of teenagers called Monitoring the Future, high schoolers’ use of
alcohol, cigarettes, and drugs (other than marijuana and vaping) have dropped
to the lowest levels since the survey began in 1976."[0]

Notably, from the above December 2016 article:

> E-Cigarettes (Vaporizers): The rate for e-cigarettes among high school
> seniors dropped to 12.4 percent from last year’s 16.2 percent. _Of note:
> only 24.9 percent of 12th graders report that their e-cigarettes contained
> nicotine_ (the addictive ingredient in tobacco) the last time they used,
> with 62.8 percent claiming they contain "just flavoring." (emphasis added)

> Attitudes and Availability: This year, more 10th graders disapprove of
> regular use of e-cigarettes than last year. For example, 65 percent of 10th
> graders say they disapprove, up from last year’s 59.9 percent. In addition,
> more 10th graders think it is harder to get regular cigarettes than last
> year; 62.9 percent said they are easy to get, compared to 66.6 percent last
> year. This represents a dramatic shift from survey findings two decades ago,
> when 91.3 percent of 10th graders thought it was easy to get cigarettes.

[0]: [https://www.drugabuse.gov/news-events/news-
releases/2016/12/...](https://www.drugabuse.gov/news-events/news-
releases/2016/12/teen-substance-use-shows-promising-decline)

------
qwerty456127
Schools are for educating, not for prohibiting or judging. If you believe
vaping is bad for kids or whoever - educate them about why do you think so and
let them decide for themselves.

When I was a schoolboy everybody believed kids that smoke don't grow as they
get older, nobody wanted to become a gnome :-)

If there is a real health threat we are to be able to explain it to the
children, if there isn't - we probably should just let the do what they want.

------
foreigner
Why not just set the minimum birthdate to buy nicotine products at 2000, so
only 18 year olds can buy it this year, and future generations cannot? Seems
like that would sidestep the whole "removing people's rights" argument and
gradually just phase it out completely? Has any jurisdiction done that?

~~~
Eric_WVGG
Sure I mean a minimum age to buy cigarettes definitely kept teens off smoking
for the past 50 years

Sorry for the sarcasm, but, like, what?

~~~
foreigner
I'm not suggesting a minimum age, I'm suggesting a minimum birthdate. So the
minimum age will advance automatically - this year it will be 18, next year
19, etc... Put another way, people born on or before 2000 will continue to be
able to buy nicotine, but people born after 2000 will never be able to buy it.
Over time the percentage of the population which can buy nicotine will
gradually dwindle to zero, and there will be no more excuses for stores to
stock it.

AFAIK that approach hasn't been tried anywhere. I think I heard a while back
it was discussed in Russia but never actually happened? I don't see any good
argument for not doing this.

~~~
Eric_WVGG
Thank you for the clarification. Amusing idea.

------
thedirt0115
I wonder how accurate these surveys are. In high school, kids I knew who
_actually_ did drugs wouldn't admit to it (even on an anonymous survey), and
some other kids would answer that they do meth every day because it sounded
funny to write that.

------
aje403
"Young hormonal teenagers seeking to rebel perform risky behavior with
addictive substances"

Maybe they should just sit in the chair and do what they're told instead

~~~
FrozenTuna
Too true.

"ABC is a gateway drug/activity/event. It leads to XYZ, which is way worse!"

Sure, so educate them on real consequences and safety and not the external
imposed consequences. Also, don't lie about ABC since they'll assume you lied
about XYZ as well.

Seriously, who still doesn't see the same 5-10 year pattern at this point?

~~~
aje403
People like to control others and everyone loves a sensationalist national
epidemic for the headlines is what is at the heart of it. I like vaping
though. Doesn't appear to do any lasting harm compared to everything else and
smart kids will wise up and quit eventually.

------
Rapzid
Looking past the safety concerns, I personally have zero interest in vaping
nicotine as an ex smoker.

A lot who have smoked and quit probably understand the pschological aspect;
the constant need, the schedule, the loss of enjoyment from taking a deep
breath of fresh air.. I don't want to be addicted to inhaling nicotine in any
form.

------
philip1209
> Schools Struggle with Vaping Explosion

I find this title confusing - I thought it meant that vapes were physically
exploding.

~~~
corobo
Yeah that is exactly why I clicked into the comments

------
alecco
For years it was obvious to me vaping was backed by an astroturfing campaign
on Facebook/reddit/HN/etc. Same for many other things the online techie in
crowd things they came up on their own.

Let's fix this recurring problem.

~~~
portofcall
If you’re right that might explain why this article was just flagged so much
it went from near the top of the front page, to near the bottom of the second.

Edit now the third page.

8 min later, 4th page.

~~~
alecco
And we got downvoted to hell. Yeah, this was by "fans" alone.

~~~
portofcall
Credit to the mods who brought it back to the front page though.

------
truculation
What should the vaping kids do instead of vaping?

~~~
testplzignore
There was a golden era about 10 years ago where it looked like smoking was
finally going to be conquered. The cessation aids were working. Smoking rates
were plummeting. It wasn't cool anymore. It was no longer an impossible
problem - people could quit and never look back.

Then vaping screwed it all up.

I hate the myth - which I assumed is being propagated by the companies that
profit off of it - that vaping was a replacement for smoking, and that people
who vape would otherwise smoke. No. There was a clear period of time between
when smoking was on its deathbed and when vaping exploded.

~~~
strictnein
But vaping isn't smoking. It's a similar looking, but significantly different
activity that carries almost none of the health risks associated with smoking,
both firsthand and secondhand.

------
billfruit
To me, vaping appears to be a significantly less harmful to the body than
smoking: vaping is just inhaling steam infused with nicotine where as in
smoking the fumes of combustion are being inhaled. I also think with vaping
there also no risk of passive smoking. I am in amazement of WHO and other
health bodies dragging their feet in declaring vaping almost harmless compared
to smoking.

~~~
richsherwood
I’ve used the odd vape here and there to stop smoking and I 100% agree with
you that it’s safer than cigarettes but it’s way to early to say that it’s
wholly “safe”. The problem is that if you declare it safe then everyone and
their dog will start vaping, (which then amplifies any outlier problems as
there are more data sources. Aka teens). The unfortunate thing is we likely
won’t see any declarations one way or another for a few years now. The only
way to see the true costs associated with vaping is to let time take its
course. 15 years from now we will have a better idea of what daily vaping does
to the human body and how safe it really is.

------
wonderflpancake
Semi-related, maybe there are some nicotine experts here that can help me:

I smoked ~4 years light/social post high school. Dipped Copenhagen Pouches for
~10 years. I've tried to quite with some success with the longest streak being
2 years. It is incredibly hard and all in the mind.

I found ZYN pouches last year and they have replaced my needs. It "... is a
tobacco leaf-free nicotine product. The nicotine salt used in ZYN is derived
from tobacco leaves, but once the salt is extracted, no part of the leaf
remains." The rest of it is says its food-grade.

Obviously the best would be not to use anything. But would anyone happen to
know if this is still leaving a lot of risk exposure? My thought is its
probably about as safe as I'll ever find, and really just giving me the
nicotine I've become used to without the bad stuff, as nicotine itself is not
what causes problems. But if anyone has more informed opinions that would be
helpful.

~~~
surrogatekey
Well done you.

In terms of recreational nicotine, Swedish snus has the most established, long
term evidence base for very significantly reduced risks.

It's reasonable to expect that a product like Zyn would fare even better than
Swedish snus in long term studies because of the lack of tobacco specific
nitrosamines. Although Zyn doesn't have a long term, formulation specific
evidence base like Swedish snus, there is good evidence for its components.

Pharmaceutical nicotine replacement therapy products like nicotine gum could
be options too. Guessing you've already tried that though... but even the FDA
now says NRT can be used indefinitely.

