
Convicted of sex crimes, but with no victims - apsec112
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/26/magazine/sex-offender-operation-net-nanny.html
======
shajznnckfke
I think a big chunk of the population are follower types who could be
convinced to go along with all sorts of things. These people are generally
going to behave as society expects them to, or at least as the last persuasive
person they talked to expects. I think the type of sting operation described
in this article could ensnare _millions_ of such people, few of whom would
have ever felt any impetus to commit this sort of crime.

The subject of this article certainly displayed poor judgement, but wasn’t any
kind of danger to society without this scenario constructed by the police. I
don’t think public in any way benefited from this operation. All it did was
take a productive member of society out of commission. I think this is like
the time the government put out a bounty on rabbit heads, so farmers started
breeding more rabbits. The farmers are the police and the rabbits are sex
offenders.

~~~
rumanator
> The subject of this article certainly displayed poor judgement, but wasn’t
> any kind of danger to society without this scenario constructed by the
> police.

I don't agree. The whole point of sting operations is that they enable police
to catch people that pose a danger to society by catching them in the act.

In this case we have a man in his early 20s caught actively trying to meet a
13yo girl for sex.

The same man stated he already had sex with 5 or 6 other girls like this,
although he didn't specified their ages.

~~~
shajznnckfke
I’d agree with you if the supposed victim wasn’t a 24 year old who provided
pictures of themselves in the lead-up to the meeting. To me, it reads like the
police constructed an interaction where it would have been clear to the target
of the sting in the moment that he was engaging with an adult (which was
indeed the truth), but that included a few phrases that show evidence of guilt
when removed from that moment.

I think the police could have demonstrated much more convincing evidence of
guilt if they had someone who looked like a 13 year old answer the door, and
recorded the man’s reaction.

~~~
rumanator
> I'd agree with you if the supposed victim wasn’t a 24 year old who provided
> pictures of themselves in the lead-up to the meeting.

That's quite the disingenuous take on the case. You're just cherry-picking the
age of the police officer tasked with the sting. During the whole sting the
same agent repeatedly made it very clear that the girl he was trying to meet
to have sex was 13 years old. That fact didn't discouraged him the slightest
and, just like he did 5 or 6 times before, we went to meet the 13 year old
girl to have sex with her.

~~~
shajznnckfke
I think you’ve made a big error in your reading of this story if you got the
impression that he regularly hooked up with underage girls. He regularly had
sex with women, like many men. A history of having sex with women is not
evidence of him being a child predator. Neither is going to meet up with
someone who looks 24.

If the police wanted to target actual child predators, they wouldn’t be
sending out photos of 24 year olds. It seems like the were targeting non-
child-predators with bad judgement. Maybe finding the real predators is too
much work.

~~~
rumanator
> I think you’ve made a big error in your reading of this story if you got the
> impression that he regularly hooked up with underage girls.

I said he admitted he already had sex with 5 or 6 girls of unspecified age the
same way he was caught trying to have sex with a 13 year old girl. That's what
he did, and that was his motivation when he knowingly tried to meet that 13
year old girl.

> A history of having sex with women is not evidence of him being a child
> predator.

Trying to meet 13 year old girls for sex is the evidence of him being a child
predator.

> Neither is going to meet up with someone who looks 24.

The girl repeatedly stated, and made it quite clear, that she was 13 years
old. That fact, which was made quite clear to him and he acknowledged and
fully understood she was a 13 year old girl. Still, the fact that the girl he
tried to meet repeatedly stated quite clearly she was 13 years old was not
deemed by the criminal as a good enough reason not o have sex with her.

~~~
imtringued
>Users had to certify that they were 18 or older, but at the time Craigslist
didn’t verify users’ age. People described their appearance in personal ads,
then sent photos that didn’t match. Some seemed to enjoy role playing. He once
replied to a post describing an attractive 21-year-old, but when he arrived at
the address she gave him, an old man answered the door. He got out of there
fast.

Yeah and the 60 year old man that cat fished him also repeatedly stated that
he was an attractive 21 year old women so everything people tell you on
craigslist must be 100% truth even if they provide a picture that completely
disproves what they have said.

Come on cragislist is full of bullshit. You can't trust anything people say on
that platform.

> That's what he did, and that was his motivation when he knowingly tried to
> meet that 13 year old girl.

He saw the picture of an adult women and then met an adult woman. Is that
really against the law nowadays?

>The girl repeatedly stated, and made it quite clear, that she was 13 years
old.

Quite clear by showing an image of an adult woman?

~~~
rumanator
> Yeah and the 60 year old man that cat fished him also repeatedly stated that
> he was an attractive 21 year old women

What's your point? Having sex with a 21 year old woman isn't a crime.

Perhaps you could have a point if he tried to meet a 21 year old woman that
actually was an underage girl, but the convicted sex offender never mentioned
anything similar to that.

> Come on cragislist is full of bullshit.

The underage girl he met online made it quite clear to him she was 13 years
old. That fact popped up repeatedly during their chats. Intentionally ignoring
the age of an underage girl just because you want to have sex with her isn't a
valid legal defense.

~~~
commoner
> The underage girl he met online made it quite clear to him she was 13 years
> old. That fact popped up repeatedly during their chats.

"The underage girl" does not exist. "That fact" is a fiction, and Hambrick
would not have been imprisoned if Net Nanny had not entrapped him with a
picture of a 24-year-old police officer (that Hambrick correctly identified as
an adult) and false messages written by a middle-aged detective.

------
kergonath
This one’s going to get flagged to death quickly.

Apart from the paedophile angle, there is an interesting philosophical
question of whether something is a crime if there is no victim, and whether
you should go to jail for something you hypothetically might have done at some
point in the future.

Personally, I think of Minority Report the same way as 1984: both are
magnifying glasses showing how dangerous some of our tendencies are.
Definitely not manuals of how things ought to be done. Being convicted without
having harmed anyone is a travesty of justice.

~~~
onion2k
There are lots of 'victimless' crimes - speeding in your car (reckless
driving), buying drugs to consume yourself (use of controlled substances),
planning to murder your partner (conspiracy). The victim is either 'society'
or the person committing the crime. If you commit one of these crimes you're
punished for demonstrating a willingness to do what society as a whole has
decided it doesn't want people to do. Whether or not that's correct is a
matter for debate, but the idea of 'if there's no victim there can't be a
crime' is probably nonsense. There's bound to be at least one or two
victimless crimes you think should actually be criminal.

~~~
DarkWiiPlayer
I think it's less about whether or not actually intending to commit a crime
should be punished, but about whether there was ever such an intention in the
first place.

The article makes it sound like this person didn't really believe that the
person he was talking to was only 13 years old and, given some of the messages
mentioned in the article, that sounds reasonable.

He was talking to a bunch of adult using the photo of an adult woman. People
on the internet are not exactly known for never bullshitting people just for
the lulz.

~~~
Natsu
The problem here is that this is just the pedo version of asking a prostitute
if she's a cop and the intention is exactly the same--to limit the police's
ability to catch them.

~~~
kergonath
No, the problem is that the people being caught aren't "them" (the actual
paedophiles you would actually want to get) in the first place.

~~~
Natsu
Speak for yourself, I don't have a problem with going after people trying to
have sex with people who claim they're 13.

------
calvano915
I knew someone that this exact thing happened to. Literally the casual
encounters section with different women (many older) over months, and a bad
choice /poor judgement one day that lead to arrest and conviction. For him,
ultimately it added up to a huge pain in the ass for years but he didn't do
prison time. It appears that many aren't as lucky or resourced.

It's easy to judge harshly based on the topic, but all I can say like TFA is
that many of these people have no prior history and this type of police
activity likely leads to just ruining as many lives as are being protected.
Its similar to living in a gated community or such; a false sense of security
with questionable effectiveness.

A lot of the harm for those who get caught up in this came from the Adam Walsh
Act
([https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Walsh_Child_Protection_...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Walsh_Child_Protection_and_Safety_Act))
which required mandatory minimums that have now been successfully challenged
in courts. If you read about Adam Walsh's story, while tragic the
circumstances had nothing to do with a sexual predator type situation, and
could be judged as negligence by a couple adults responsible for Adam's safety
the day of his disappearance.

What I would hope everyone could support is possibly leaving these stings in
place but allowing first time offenders the ability to rectify the situation
like the person I knew by participating in ongoing therapy and reasonable
monitoring to ensure they do not pose a threat to society, and stepping things
back a bit with labeling them as offenders when no actual victim was harmed
and there were no priors.

~~~
imtringued
The article mentioned that people being caught by the sting operation usually
receive harsher punishments than people who actually commit the crime that the
sting operation is supposed to prevent. It's truly absurd.

~~~
autisticcurio
Some people get off on power, just look at what is said about politicians. How
many people know women breastfeeding can orgasm? [https://www.nct.org.uk/life-
parent/sex-after-baby/breastfeed...](https://www.nct.org.uk/life-parent/sex-
after-baby/breastfeeding-and-sex-five-surprising-facts)
[https://www.todaysparent.com/family/womens-health/i-was-
turn...](https://www.todaysparent.com/family/womens-health/i-was-turned-on-by-
breastfeeding-am-i-a-freak/)
[https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/1468181420003018...](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/146818142000301894)

Either way, whether its hormonal or not, it could explain why some usually
older women get really nasty towards other mothers breastfeeding in public.
Maybe these older women have difficulty reconciling the feelings and/or
knowledge of breastfeeding with social norms?

Question is, is this orgasming when breastfeeding paedophilic and if so why
the bias in the law enforcement, legal system and society in general? Is it
simply to reduce penetrative harm and/or the mental harm that occurs when
stepping outside social norms?

Such a massive controversial subject.

------
stormdennis
So she was in fact as she doubtless appeared to him on video, a woman 120% his
age, not someone aged 65% of his age.

To older people it can be hard distinguishing the ages of people a lot
younger. But there's no way a 20 y.o. could confuse a person barely out of
primary school with someone of University graduate age.

~~~
Merem
Looking at the picture in the article, how many 13-year-olds have wrinkles on
their forehead? Certainly not many at all. So in this case, it's even really
easy to see that she is not that age.

------
ummonk
So with the exception of a handful of states, mistake of fact is not a defense
against statutory rape. I.e. someone who has sex with someone under the age of
consent whom they believe to be 18 is still guilty of statutory rape.

The opposite is happening here, since the perpetrator isn't planning to do
anything with someone actually under the age of consent - just someone whom
they believe to be under the age of consent.

~~~
sakoht
This is a good point. It seems we convict people for crimes they don't know
they are committing, and also for thinking they are committing a crime when
they aren't.

It seems they should have just had the cops hide and wait until he actually
tried to make a move on the undercover "girl" cop. Him showing up out of
curiosity, perhaps even concern, is impossible to distinguish actual
willingness to hurt a child if the jump on him immediately and arrest him.

The subject of child rape is so terrible, we give a pass to shoddy police
work. One would think that a lack of child porn, or overt sexual conversation
from the guy would have made the judge think he didn't actually intend to take
advantage of her without more evidence.

------
somuchstigma
If you dare to look further into this topic, please also look at a child
protection non-profit that considers human and civil rights as a core value
and tries to bust the enormous amount of stigma that surrounds the topic:
[https://prostasia.org/about](https://prostasia.org/about)

You might feel uneasy about "sex positivity" being associated with preventing
child sexual abuse. They also have a lot of other messages around primary
prevention that might initially repel you. These days, they've got their own
Twitter mob trying to shame and cancel them away, but really, "when you
associate shame and guilt with sex, you are facilitating sexual abuse":
[https://prostasia.org/blog/the-weapon-of-
shame](https://prostasia.org/blog/the-weapon-of-shame) and
[https://prostasia.org/blog/who-should-be-excluded-from-
child...](https://prostasia.org/blog/who-should-be-excluded-from-child-
protection)

Here's their take on offender registries: [https://prostasia.org/blog/how-the-
registry-harms-families/](https://prostasia.org/blog/how-the-registry-harms-
families/)

~~~
claudiawerner
I wonder why this comment is dead; Prostasia is a great organization that does
a lot of work for artistic freedom and a better understanding of how the law
and child protection organizations can help people. It stands resolutely
against child abuse, to a greater degree than other organizations who may only
have good intentions but not the actions to show for it.

------
gorgoiler
If this could work with millions of people it’s possible to leverage chat
frameworks and GPT to automate the dragnet.

With a Ring door camera the evidence gathering could also be automated.
Facebook / Faceswap / reverse google image search could get us a pretty good
guess at a legal name and cell number. Homeland security can correlate to
online handles.

If the private face databases do not cooperate then that’s going to make life
difficult, but exerting media / public pressure on them to “help catch pedos”
should enforce their compliance.

Correlate this all with taxpayer and employer information too. It’s a
victimless crime so a fixed penalty — 20% garnished from wages for a decade —
seems appropriate. (It’s “fixed” in that the percentage doesn’t change, even
though the amount does.)

Getting to trial is time consuming and expensive even if we _have_ caught the
same person that we catfished into showing up at the doorbell camera. However,
if we automatically WhatsApp the perpetrator a link to a plea bargain Google
Form, a good percentage are going to no-contest the charges and admit guilt
via a submit form button. Degrade the video quality enough and apply some ML
to match skin and hair tones. We don’t need to be precise if we make it seem
like we won’t back down in court.

Tie this all into the IRS and we of course will automate the fines collection.
20% of average income multiplied by a million would be a significant enough
revenue to cover the salaries of our consultants and admin staff.

Moreover, sir, there will be a significant impact on your reputation with key
voters. According to our analysis of private conversation sentiment in the
most volatile quintile in key swing states, this proposal will be sure to
secure you a third term in office.

~~~
imtringued
Do it like in Germany. Just send out a letter to every citizen asking for
money with some neatly hidden clause that you admit guilt of the supposed
crime if you pay the fine. Doesn't actually matter if there is any meat to it.
Some people will sign it simply because they can't afford a lawyer.

------
sakoht
Sentences that are too short, or too long, are both a byproduct of a lack of
latitude on the part of the judge to apply reason and common sense. Our system
a judge's "bias", but then end we up with a bureaucracy instead of a human who
can see nuance.

Mandatory minimum sentences have the same effect. The prosecutor uses the fear
of the sentence to get a guilty plea and negotiates a plea bargain. This means
people who should have gotten a fair trial in front of a judge and a jury are
scared into pleaing guilty and letting the prosecutor decide how much time
they will do by framing the plea offer. We bother to have judges to prevent
this stuff, and should use them.

Mandatory minimum sentences have the same effect

------
SlavikCA
O.U.R. published response to the NY article here:

[https://ourrescue.org/blog/the-new-york-times-misses-the-
poi...](https://ourrescue.org/blog/the-new-york-times-misses-the-point-not-
preventing-children-from-being-sexually-victimized-would-be-the-real-
misservice-to-society/)

> the new york times misses the point: not preventing children from being
> sexually victimized would be the real misservice to society

~~~
dependenttypes
Seems like yet another instance of "give up your rights, think of the
children" case.

~~~
OneHundredAnd10
Give up your rights to send sexually explicit messages to 13 year old girls
online and arrange to meet them in person when they are home alone to "play
video games"...?

Yes.

~~~
imtringued
Let me ask the opposite. If you are trying to meet a 13 year old girl and the
girl on the other side is sending you a fake picture of herself pretending to
be 24 year old, pretending to speak like a 24 year old, and in general
pretending to be a 24 year old except when asked how old that person is, then
why on earth would you meet that person? Anyone who was interested in underage
girls would want to make sure that the person they are talking to is actually
underage. That guy completely failed to confirm that she was actually 13, he
made the "really stupid mistake" of confirming that the person he was talking
to is 24.

~~~
OneHundredAnd10
She said she was 13.

If you're so naive that you think this was just a silly mistake by a man who
wanted to play video games with her then you're so naive there's little point
in continuing this discussion.

No man in his right mind continues the discussion at that point. Even a
sociopath would have the good sense to end communications out of concern for
his own safety and freedom, even if he had no concern for the safety and
happiness of the child.

You're welcome to describe to me the type of man who continues to message a 13
year old online even after she has shared her age, taking that discussion to
the point of explicit sexual messaging, and arranging to meet privately where
she is alone.

He just wanted to play video games, right? Why not wait until the parents are
home and introduce himself? We both know why.

------
A_TX
It makes no sense to be looking for child predators on adult sites, by
pretending to be teens who are looking for random adult strangers to offer
free sex to. Real child predators are not likely to fall for this. Vulnerable
people who are curious and confused are the ones falling for this trap. Here
is how to catch real child predators (video below). These people have done it
right because they really were interested in catching child predators. Running
sex sting operations on adult sites (to catch child predators) is just a lazy,
easy way. It’s much easier to create fake crime, by targeting vulnerable
people and fooling them into playing the role, and it’s a fact that it’s all
done for money. Doing this has brought them in so much money.

[https://youtu.be/dbg4hNHsc_8](https://youtu.be/dbg4hNHsc_8)

Here’s the reality of how they trap vulnerable people. (Watch and listen to
the video)

[https://floridaactioncommittee.org/watch-oral-arguments-
in-2...](https://floridaactioncommittee.org/watch-oral-arguments-in-2nd-dca-
entrapment-case/#comments)

Here’s a very interesting article about the cult group that has been behind
this scam.

[https://americancrimejournal.com/operation-underground-
railr...](https://americancrimejournal.com/operation-underground-railroad-
retains-controversial-firm-kirton-mcconkie-threatens-legal-action-against-
acj/)

------
moonchild
> She used slang a 13-year-old probably wouldn’t know, like “FTP” [Fuck The
> Police]

This, I am afraid, represents a rather naïve view of 13-year-olds.

~~~
sundvor
The story of how the ADHD man was set up by the power hungry sting op
disgusted me; the pic of the officer with the headphones looked like that of a
young _adult_. His challenge of the age went unanswered, from what the report
said.

My impression of the US is steadily not improving.

The only FTP I'm familiar with is that of a certain protocol... (Mid 40s, two
decades in Australia).

~~~
senectus1
me too brother.. me too :-/

------
frereubu
This reminds me of the case of Dan DePew, where a police officer got too deep
into an investigation to let it go. The NYT cases are less involved, but the
ethical issues are almost identical:
[https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2019/02/05/the-fatal-
ensnaring...](https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2019/02/05/the-fatal-ensnaring-of-
dan-depew/) I find this kind of approach to police work very unsettling.

~~~
coldtea
> _I find this kind of approach to police work very unsettling._

Especially since this "too personal involvement" is celebrated in each and
every TV cop show and movie, it seems...

------
ponsin
I'm not a psychologist but from what I understand some people who have urges
for young people just like some people have urges for people of the same
gender. Obviously I have no problem if someone acts upon their urges towards
people of their gender, but do have problems with people who act upon urges to
young people. I would assume that in such case some form of voluntery
conversion therapy would be useful. Similarly if someone has urges towards
their gender but would prefer for whatever reason (to be more normal, to
follow their religion, to have kids, ...) they would like to have urges
towards the opposite gender, I see no problem with voluntery conversion
therapy.

One big pet peeves of mine with a lot of left leaning people is that they are
pro gay because "it is their choice and doesn't effect me" yet they are
against voluntery conversion even though the same logic holds. And before
anyone says "they aren't proven to work", maybe we should allow scientists to
work on that. After all, if armies have been able to convince POWs to fight
for them patriotically against their country, I don't think it should be that
hard to get people to love certain people

~~~
commoner
> to be more normal

The assertion that opposite-sex attraction is "normal" and that same-sex
attraction is abnormal is not supported by science. Homosexuality was removed
from the third edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental
Disorders (DSM-III) in 1973.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_psychology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_psychology)

The American Psychological Association advises against conversion therapy
because it is ineffective and potentially harmful:

> The American Psychological Association Task Force on Appropriate Therapeutic
> Responses to Sexual Orientation conducted a systematic review of the peer-
> reviewed journal literature on sexual orientation change efforts (SOCE) and
> concluded that efforts to change sexual orientation are unlikely to be
> successful and involve some risk of harm, contrary to the claims of SOCE
> practitioners and advocates. Even though the research and clinical
> literature demonstrate that same-sex sexual and romantic attractions,
> feelings, and behaviors are normal and positive variations of human
> sexuality regardless of sexual orientation identity, the task force
> concluded that the population that undergoes SOCE tends to have strongly
> conservative religious views that lead them to seek to change their sexual
> orientation. Thus, the appropriate application of affirmative therapeutic
> interventions for those who seek SOCE involves therapist acceptance,
> support, and understanding of clients and the facilitation of clients’
> active coping, social support, and identity exploration and development,
> without imposing a specific sexual orientation identity outcome.

[https://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/therapeutic-
response.p...](https://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/therapeutic-response.pdf)

~~~
ponsin
> The assertion that opposite-sex attraction is "normal" and that same-sex
> attraction is abnormal is not supported by science.

I don't know what "science" you are referencing but according to the NY times
[0] 0.003% of marriage in the US are homosexual. To put that into context
0.006% of the population has 2 different colored eyes [1]. I would call
someone with the same color in both eyes to be more "normal" than someone with
different colors.

Now to the point. It may be true that there is no scientifically proven
conversion therapy, but that is the case with many psychological
characteristics. Many people have mental "things" (I won't call it a mental
issue because it is not inherently bad, but you get my point) that science has
no proven way to treat. But scientists continue to try to find a treatment. Of
course there are limits to what they can try. Shocking genitalia is not
allowed for any therapy and as such is not allowed for conversion therapy. But
there are many other effective methods that psychologists use to help people
who want to change.

[0] [https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/13/upshot/the-most-
detailed-...](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/13/upshot/the-most-detailed-map-
of-gay-marriage-in-america.html) [1]
[https://www.medicinenet.com/heterochromia_iridis/article.htm...](https://www.medicinenet.com/heterochromia_iridis/article.htm#how_rare_is_heterochromia_iridis)

~~~
commoner
> I don't know what "science" you are referencing but according to the NY
> times [0] 0.003% of marriage in the US are homosexual.

That is an absolutely terrible argument, and your numbers are also incorrect.
The NYT article said, "In 2014 there were 183,280 same-sex marriages in
America, roughly a third of 1 percent of all marriages," which is 0.33%, not
0.003%.

More importantly, same-sex marriage was not recognized nationwide in 2014, and
the Supreme Court only later declared same-sex marriage a fundamental right in
Obergefell v. Hodges (2015). Finally, the number of gay marriages is not an
accurate indicator of the number of gay people. Prior to Obergefell v. Hodges,
only 7.9% of LGBT Americans were married to their same-sex partner.

[https://news.gallup.com/poll/212702/lgbt-adults-married-
sex-...](https://news.gallup.com/poll/212702/lgbt-adults-married-sex-
spouse.aspx)

About 4.5% of Americans identify as LGBT in a 2017 Gallup poll, and the
current percentage is likely to be higher due to social stigma, which is
stronger for older generations who lived during periods of lower LGBT
acceptance. Only 1.4% of traditionalists (born 1913-1945) identify as LGBT,
while 8.2% of millennials (born 1980-1999) do the same.

[https://news.gallup.com/poll/234863/estimate-lgbt-
population...](https://news.gallup.com/poll/234863/estimate-lgbt-population-
rises.aspx)

The APA makes it very clear that homosexuality is normal.

> The longstanding consensus of the behavioral and social sciences and the
> health and mental health professions is that homosexuality per se is a
> normal and positive variation of human sexual orientation (Bell, Weinberg, &
> Hammersmith, 1981; Bullough, 1976; Ford & Beach 1951; Kinsey, Pomeroy, &
> Martin, 1948; Kinsey, Pomeroy, Martin, & Gebhard, 1953). Homosexuality per
> se is not a mental disorder (APA, 1975).

> APA is concerned about ongoing efforts to mischaracterize homosexuality and
> promote the notion that sexual orientation can be changed and about the
> resurgence of sexual orientation change efforts (SOCE).

[https://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/therapeutic-
response.p...](https://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/therapeutic-response.pdf)

------
tempsolution
This is ridiculous and yet another demonstration of the absurdity that they
try to sell as US "justice" system.

So let's summarize.

1) Guy is looking for adults on an adult page

2) Adult women(24) with an adult picture says she is 13

3) Guy probably thinks like "okay, doesn't look 13". Which arguably is stupid,
given that US citizens should know how stupid the US is when it comes to
minors.

4) Talks more

5) Women says again she is 13

6) They agree to meet anyway

7) Guy drives to her home and she greets him. She is obviously a grown women.

8) Guy gets arrested for child rape

Yeah sounds about right. God bless America!

So let's rewrite the story a bit:

1) Guy is looking for some mint on craigslist

2) When asking the seller why the mint "makes people high", the seller says
it's actually weed.

3) Guy thinks, okay, doesn't look like weed, it looks like fucking mint

4) Guy says, I will buy this mint anyway, looks like mint

5) Seller says again "Dude, it's fucking weed, but okay"

6) Seller sells the mint

7) Guy receives the mint in his mailbox and opens it

8) Cool it's mint, smells of mint, looks like mint.

9) Guy gets arrested for drug possession

Erm what?

In the real world, that cop should have been suspended for false advertising
and the seller's account as well.

Good thing the world has no other problems...

------
traloid
is being punished for attempted murder unjust because you failed to hurt the
person and thus there is no victim?

~~~
shajznnckfke
If I had to come up with an equally just sting where the crime is attempted
murder, it would go something like this:

Officer: “I’d love if you’d bring some chocolate ice cream to our date! By the
way, I’m deathly allergic to chocolate.”

Rube Sting Target: “Allergic to chocolate? You’re joking, right?”

Officer: “What’s your cell number?”

...

Officer: “See you soon! Don’t forget to pick up that death by chocolate on the
way!”

~~~
mimi89999
Even though it's a very sad story, that comment made me laugh.

------
robk
Sorry it was abundantly clear she said 13. He knew what he was doing was wrong
full stop.

~~~
saagarjha
I’m actually 12 and as such should not be on this website. Should the
moderators be held accountable for not deleting my account, even though I have
previously discussed my experience in college?

~~~
otterley
Possibly. There are laws like COPPA that companies have to follow around
storing the data of children under 13, and they may delete your account after
learning your true age, rather than undertaking the efforts that the law
requires, lest they risk getting into trouble.

~~~
saagarjha
I know about COPPA; that is why I specifically chose “12” and not “13” ;) I
brought this up because I am fairly sure the the moderators know enough about
me to say that I am not actually 12 regardless of what I state here, which is
the point I am trying to make: does the law require one to take statements
made by a person on the Internet at face value if they seem patently false? If
yes, is such a law practical and/or reasonable?

(FWIW, Y Combinator forbids children under the age of 13 from making accounts
for this reason. However, when people have done so in the past it has usually
been tacitly ignored for reasons pertaining to “it would be a net loss for
everyone if we enforced this”.)

~~~
imtringued
>does the law require one to take statements made by a person on the Internet
at face value if they seem patently false? If yes, is such a law practical
and/or reasonable?

Doesn't this effectively legalize fraud? If you order a product on Amazon and
something else arrives you'll have to take the merchant listing at face value
because it was communicated over the internet.

You are a construction worker and go on Amazon and order a power bank. It was
actually a fake listing by a third party seller.

Two days later the package arrives, you unpack it only to discover that you
have received a brick instead of the promised power bank.

You dispute the sale and send an E-Mail to the third party seller. You tell
him this product is red, it is square and it is heavy, it's a brick, not a
power bank.

The seller responds. Yes, the product is red, it is square and it is heavy,
it's a power bank. Here is a picture of the power bank (shows the brick).

