
Ask HN: How do programmers deal with ADD? - n_siddharth
I have constantly struggled with the issue and have wondered how other people in the community deal with it because the cost of context switching is so high when coding. I have tried ritalin and although it helped a little, I have consciously tried to stay away from medication. Would be great if people here could share their strategies of dealing with this.
======
codeonfire
Caffeine and "forest therapy." Caffeine is only a stopgap. Impulsive feelings,
I believe, are due to the body not getting something it wants like food,
exercise, sleep, toilet, etc. Forest therapy is a two hour block of
distraction free time for problem solving. The thing that's different is that
the body needs to be doing something autonomously. Walking through the woods
in a straight line for two hours is basically automatic. Why a forest? Line of
sight is about 50 yards and sound is muffled. And it's pleasant.

------
nartz
You probably just dont want to do whatever you are trying to do, simple as
that. Seriously, ask yourself whether, deep down, this is something you really
'want' to do, or its something you feel you 'have' to do (school? work?). This
is a completely normal feeling.

Now comes the hard part - doing what you 'have' to do.

Few steps

0a. Get excited about what you 'have' to do - whether it be the learning
aspect, the mastery of your work (craftsmanship), the purpose of your work
(helping users, making money, etc)

0b. Think about what you are going to do, and write down some granular steps
(key)

1\. Get yourself to start by hook or crook, and remove absolutely all
distractions you can find (spend the time doing this). Start the first step
you did in 0b.

2\. Work for an hour at least.

3\. Feel a sense of accomplishment, pat yourself on the back for completing
some work. Look back on the work you completed. The goal is to start 'feeling'
a positive sense about doing work you 'have' to do, which will make it easier
in the future to do more.

Starting is always the hardest part like anything. Once you get into a
routine, it becomes much easier. The hardest part is converting feelings of
pain / 'have to do' into feelings of 'want to do' or curiosity.

------
n_siddharth
Wow, thanks for all the responses. I think I would like to share more of what
troubles me the most. I usually back away when the task seems even slightly
complex. For example, I need to try to join 2 collections in mongo and want to
try out map-reduce on it and see how long it takes.. I am just postponing it
although I know if I stay with it, I will probably get it done in an hour or
two. My mind refuses to start anything that seems complex. I get overwhelemed
and anxious and delay everything to the last minute and then work in panic
mode and do a half-assed job sometimes. Even though I have evidence that when
I just start and stay with the problem, I more often than not do it well, I
can't seem to internalize this and repeat this. What do you do when you have
to do something seemingly complex. I always have trouble breaking it down into
smaller tasks unless I have someone to talk to.. then somehow it gets very
easy.. I have found that when I work in a group or in pairs, I am way more
effective and my speed goes up tremendously. So much so that others often need
time to catch up to what I saying. What advice would you give for someone
struggling to work on his own?

~~~
slisla
Try this book: One Small Step Can Change Your Life; basically the author is a
cognitive psychologist who studied various business processes and came to the
conclusion that the ones that were most effective were not necessarily the
best, they just worked because they were put into actual practice ... because
they were non-threatening. His research then led him to the following insight:
big planning is perceived as a threat by the brain because in the past it
meant 1 of 2 things: (1) no more food, gather the group and get ready to move
or (2) some other group doesn't like us, there is going to be some armed
conflict, gather the group and ... Basically "big picture planning" while
necessary if engaged too long activates the "fight or flight" response and you
get all agitated and can't concentrate and wind up doing nothing all day. In
other words, it's not that you "have trouble breaking things into pieces" it's
because you don't break things into pieces that you activate parts of your
brain and nervous system that make it impossible for you to calmly focus on
the only reality you control - little pieces. So he suggest getting going by
sidestepping/bypassing the activation of your "big changes are coming along
with danger" systems by sneaking by them with the teeny, tiniest thing you can
imagine doing successfully. Don't make it a goal to finish this part of your
project or code for 4 hours or whatever. Make it a goal to sit at the computer
for five minutes, open up your environment and not waste time with
facebook/hacker news/email for 5 minutes. That's it - don't code, don't plan,
just open up environment and then walk away after five minutes and get a small
treat - a glass of water or something. Then instead of being overwhelmed your
brain will be stimulated but not "activated" ... kind of like in the middle of
the bell curve - not too aroused ... and you'll think, "Well, that wasn't too
bad, I guess I could actually do a little bit more." Come back and just say,
"If I could work on a teeny tiny problem, not a whole lot, but something
that's been keeping me back and if I finished it and it became a building
block I never had to rebuild and could move forward to, what would that thing
be - and work on only that for the day. Don't look at other stuff until that's
over. If it gets too frustrating, walk away and then ask yourself, can you go
at it again for 15 minutes without distractions? Work up to a pomodoro (30
minutes of work of which 5 are a break). In other words, you have to trick
your brain and keep it "asleep" so as to not hyper-arouse it too quick. Teeny
tiny problems. So small they're laughable. Almost an funny not to get them
done. So doable it's almost beneath you. But string together a couple of
thousand of those over a few months and you'll be very productive. But don't
plan them. Find one, do it, see where that leads you, take the next step,
focus only on that until you did it. Make it so small it's not possible to get
distracted. So small it's not possible to get overwhelmed. Make your problem
being underwhelmed, so underwhelmed you quiet your hyperactive mind down
enough to let you actually get work done. There are no complex anythings. Just
strings of simples, some strings longer than others, some strings connect to
more strings, but everything is an individual bead and you can handle each and
every bead. Can you make a cup of tea? Sure! Can you do it while contemplating
your place in the universe, and the meaning of life? No, because you're using
part of your brain that needs to shut down the tea making part. Just focus on
putting water in the pot and lighting the flame. You can do it. Really there
is no secret other than this. You may forget to do it, but deep down you know
this to be reality. You even say it ("I can't seem to internalize this and
repeat it.") You don't have to internalize it. Here's another trick: everybody
falls of their paths all the time, then they have to "remember" what works and
just repeat it. It's so simple it's boring and that's why we forget - because
we get bored and want to forget it's that simple. But you seem to know this.
Just be okay with falling off, get back and apply it again. Until you forget
again. Then you'll remember you forgot and keep repeating this. You got this.
That's for the by yourself thing. As for pairs or groups - stop fighting it
and just pair up with someone with similar goals and workstyles.

------
dwarman
Mild medication and habits are my saviours.

Habits around when I sleep, wake, eat, and what I eat. Interruptions to habits
result in drop-outs, things get forgotten watch, lunch bag, keys,
appointments, ...).

Medicatio: be careful exploring what works nd what does not. Ritalin, Adderal,
Concerta, are basically Speed, albeit our different brain chemistry reacts to
it differently than neurotypical brains. Aderal puts me to sleep. COncerta
turned me into an a-hole with an obsessive focus on coding. Three months of
hyperfocus. I did an insane amount of coding, and it worked too, but ... Btw,
if you use that phrase with your doctor, check his spelling. My record turned
out to have "obsession with codeine" in it. Got it caught soon by my therapist
and corrected OK, so hopefuly no harm done.

Ritalin is working, after a while spent varying dosage to find a sweet spot.
It is good for that, fast acting, fast to clear out, and tiny dosage tablets
at 5mg. My sweet spot is two a day, one starting work and one halfway through.
At three, my wife complains I tap and grind my teeth too loudly.

Therapist. Alternitvely in ADHD cse know as Life Coach. My saving. I had spent
63 yers developing random baroque and unconsciou compensations to cover up my
embarraassment t not even knowing what it was I would get accused of - normal
social epecttion for example. I have time blindness - can't plan, don't
anticipate, don't remember, or if I do there's no timestamp. It is so bad my
compensation for that was to become very very good at "making it up as I go".
Including in programming. No good for college, makes me rather useless for the
typical line programmer job, but there are a few niches that really need it,
where there are no existing patterns or known solutions, for example. As a
result, a 50 year career doing stuff nobody else has done before. Always
inventing. Almost allways - a few times when I was not doing that, ranging
from boring to painfully hellish.

Other than that, what pretty much everybody else has said. For making money,
you are best off finding work in which you can easily enter and enjoy
hyperfocus. For us folks on this forum, that would probably be programming in
some form.

I have been very lucky also in employers and cofounders who, while maybe not
knowing about the ADHD (I didn't myself, after all, until recently), had
enough confidence in my results to let me get there in my own way,
displacement behaviours and all.

------
cweagans
Staying away from medication for a brain chemistry problem seems like self-
sabotage to me. I'm not a fan of medication myself, but I'm about to go to the
doctor to get a prescription. I'm in the same boat as you.

Based on the research I've done, Ritalin is more for short term focus boosts.
You should try Concerta or Vyvanse. Those are more designed for a daily
dose/longer term usage.

------
jason_slack
I have a lot of days where my mind just wanders to many, many things besides
work tasks.

I get focused on work by keeping my diet in check (no junk food), just 1
coffee very early in the day and getting up and walking around a bit
frequently, play with my dogs, pick up a book and read it for a few minutes.

Headphones also help me keep my head clear. I pump through them things that
are conducive to my working and not getting distracted.

If I just can't focus, despite best efforts, I actually don't. I do something
else until I am ready to focus again and then I give my work all of that
attention. Sometimes this means working at night after the wife and kids are
in bed because that is when my mind is back. Not everyone probably has this
luxury as employers may not be this flexible.

------
i336_
I've personally only ever used various alternative therapies for my various
issues (ADHD, OCD, Autism, a tiny bit of bipolar). I'm not "ready for life"
yet (still working through other career showstoppers) but on multiple
occasions I've talked to people who have experience with mental health and
they haven't picked up on my issues after talking with them for a while.

Here's a shortlist of different things that seem to have helped. One of the
usernames I sometimes use online - for example with gmail - is "asmqb7". ;P

\- I switched from a "decent" fish oil to Nordic Naturals in 2012. The
difference has been really good. Make sure the one you buy is a high-dose one
- the only way you can make sure in a retail shop is to always check the back,
without fail, to make sure the highest acting compounds are >=1g.

\- I take CoQ10 for extra energy because my system is poorly balanced
internally and requires more for its cogs to "turn over". Try yourself with
different combinations of ubiquinone and ubidecarenone - my system prefers the
latter, even though the former is understood to be the more powerful compound.
Also don't be afraid to feed yourself a lot of it.

\- Have a look at Alpha-lipoec acid. I'll admit I'm not _100%_ sure what it
does but it definitely helps a lot.

\- Are you getting enough salt? The medical consensus is "salt is bad for
you!!11eleventyfour!"... they forgot to prefix the word _table_. It's _table_
salt that's bad, other salt (like himalayan crystal salt) are better, and
having a lot of salt per day is very good for you.

\- See if you have PKU
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenylketonuria](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenylketonuria)),
the MTHFR
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylenetetrahydrofolate_redu...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylenetetrahydrofolate_reductase))
gene mutation, or Pyrrole's disorder.

\- Learn about Leaky Gut Syndrome. Most of the info you'll find is "this is
the diet you need to follow"; take all that in your stride (apply it at your
own discretion by all means though), I mostly reference this because the
mechanics of the theories are good to know and understand.

This is all I can think of right now off the bat.

FWIW, I'm not the walking health encyclopedia, my Mum is :P Feel free to get
in touch if you'd like more info.

~~~
i336_
Update: I wondered for a bit before I posted the above, about how I should
word it and how much info I should share. I thought I'd go with a "post the
most helpful info I've come across" approach, since I like trading high-
quality information.

I'm interested to understand why people think the correct response to the info
in my parent post is to downvote it (it's currently at -1 as I type this
reply). It took me 9 years to learn what I know now, and this info has
benefited my life greatly.

I will confess that I do still have a lot of issues with communication and
social cues, but I cannot see any instance where I've behaved in a way that is
behaviorally unacceptable and/or socially degrading, purported my view to be
the only acceptable solution (far from it), or otherwise detracted from this
conversation.

So I'm very confused :(

~~~
slisla
Yes, second what the other poster said - don't take it personally. You went
out on a limb and shared some personal experiences; though it may seem
anecdotal, a bit of research backs up a lot of what you said even though it
may not work the same for all people with all ADD types; I for one was
surprised at the resulting calm I felt when I just drank basically water with
about a tablespoon of pink salt mixed in; then I suddenly realized about every
psychiatric drug on the market has "sodium" as part of its makeup and am
starting to wonder if the drug companies are not just selling people high-
priced salt with some narcotics mixed in for the price justification. But in
conclusion, this is a forum on the net, don't try to understand let alone
predict people's reactions - you should focus only on what you can control,
which is planting the seeds.

~~~
i336_
Ah, that's one of the things I still have an issue with, taking things
personally, haha.

And yeah, now you mention it I realize I forgot to point out that this was my
experience and that everyone's different.

Thanks for the kind words. :D

FWIW, __AFAIK __(not 1000% sure), panadol /hedanol/paracetamol/etc contain a
form of Arnica (possibly along with one or two other things). Sourcing/using
Arnica directly, in its natural form, can sometimes be effective. Pretty much
the entire medical establishment is based on the idea of patented extraction
techniques, which manufacturers can charge royalties for that are as high as
they like.

I'm not against making money and being successful, but I think that an
increasing majority of players in this field are making it hard for the
establishment as a whole, and this has been going on for a while. I'm not sure
how long it can keep going without cracking.

I figure most people (and HN) would be unimpressed with a random gigantic post
in the middle of a thread, so I said more here:
[http://pastebin.com/ch6rSFUC](http://pastebin.com/ch6rSFUC) (a few paragraphs
out of an email I sent to someone recently)

------
macros
I go for walks and let my mind wander aimlessly for an hour or so, heading
back when the thoughts in my head finally start turning towards work related
stuff and I want to engage with it.

I also tend to keep a few tasks on top of the stack and try to keep enough
room before deadlines to let my self switch to something else when I feel
blocked or unmotivated.

Also helps having a boss that is well aware of ADD tendencies and can work
with them.

------
nobert
The #1 biggest impact for me was working from home full time. I have been
working from home for over 10 years now. It lets me control my environment --
most importantly I can minimize distractions. I also have two dogs who
strongly encourage me to disconnect and clear my head (aka take them for a
walk) a couple times a day.

------
ironchef253
Former / occasional programmer here.

I was categorized as having ADD / ADHD and never bothered to take anything for
it although it has caused me tremendous problems in my career and school life.
If you know you have this problem you can either drug yourself into a coma or
make significant life choices (and learn to master your condition) to steer
you into career where your strengths come into play and your weaknesses are
minimized. I tried both, I like the second option better.

I no longer believe there is something wrong with me, I believe society was
built for people different than me (sit still, pay attention, do one thing at
a time, obey etc) and I am expected to follow and obey their rules. I believe
that ADHD is a real condition but the drugs are a false solution that are
driven more by pharmaceutical company marketing than reality. If they can make
you feel bad about who you are, they can sell more drugs. That is wrong - if
you are unhappy its because something deeper is wrong in your life that you
need to change and you should find what that is.

The Good:

There are massive benefits to being an ADD-er in my experience: I can simply
handle more volume of work faster and more efficiently than anyone I know. My
brain is a 40-lane highway and I have no problem multitasking across many
different contexts. If my brain decides to become interested in a topic, I can
learn everything there is to know about that topic faster than anyone...I now
learn to recognize when something interests me and feed my brain information
in that time slot while the opportunity presents itself (I think its called
"hyperfocus"). I have learned to work with the peculiarities of my condition
and take advantage when the wind is blowing in a useful direction.

It wasn't until later in my career that I learned to be extremely detail
oriented.

The Bad:

The ADD super powers come with many downsides. I am chronically bored out of
my mind and single-tasking is a challenge (e.g. sitting through a lecture or
boring meeting). At most jobs I found myself growing completely bored in six
months and being unable to focus on my job. This resulted in a lot of useless
job hopping which I now recognize in retrospect as being a symptom of my
underlying condition.

Learning material which doesn't interest me is impossible, killing my academic
performance. I felt strongly that other people around me could simply absorb
boring "stuff" without issue and just deal with it and take the pain while my
brain simply turned off in that situation, remembering nothing.

Finally, I have difficulty communicating with people. When I talk I jump all
over the place (often off topic) or I skip three steps ahead. Most people's
brains don't work like this.

Some Solutions:

The most important fix was to find a job or career which, by definition,
involved lots of crazy stuff going on all the time. Being a programmer working
on a single product for years was simply impossible to me to sustain.

Many smaller, single-product, companies work like this: Here is the one thing
you do for the next two years. If you have ADHD that isn't going to work.

Many developers I know (with more normal brains) prefer to focus on one
technology (Say, Ruby on Rails) to the exclusion of everything else for years.
I have embraced being a super-generalist.

If you are a programmer, I recommend finding one of the following: (a) an
agency which has dozens of ongoing projects in many technologies (many digital
agencies are like this) so you can never get bored (b) a large company with a
lot of interesting stuff going on (e.g. take a company like Microsoft which
has ridiculous amounts of different technologies, products and initiatives
underway at any given time).

In my case I decided that software wasn't for me and found a related career
(technical marketing) which was more varied in nature (lots of new products,
unexpected surprises and events going on all the time).

I thought a large company would be horrible, I was wrong - My current job is
like an endless "all you can eat" buffet where I am allowed to eat as much as
I want and work on projects that interest me all day long. It probably depends
which department you land in.

More Immediate Solutions and Strategies:

1.) Lose weight and exercise regularly.

This will physiologically change your body and brain and make it easier to
sustain focus. Can't recommend going for a run regularly enough.

2.) Embrace a single page "Shit to do" list.

Everything you need to do should fit on a single page. I tried many different
techniques for time management including any number of ToDo apps etc.
Everything was less efficient than Evernote or notepad.

If I have something to do, it goes on the list. Then you can ignore it or
check it once a day and cross stuff off. I used to be really bad about
dropping tasks and forgetting details, now I am at 100% all the time.

3.) Build your entire life around Evernote

I now completely live in Evernote. Every meeting, everything gets an Evernote
page that I can come back to. The really important stuff goes in Shit To Do.

I tend to multitask through every meeting and only have part of my brain in a
listening state. I take notes for that meeting in Evernote and come back to
them.

People with ADD suffer from "poor working memory" which means you forget
things much faster than normal people. The cure is to rely on Everynote or
some other method to store all the details for you. That way, you can get
around the poor working memory issue by letting the computer do the
remembering.

~~~
geek_slop
This is pretty scary. You just described me to a "T" (except the Evernote part
- I use Onenote). I've been lucky enough however, to fall into jobs where I
became the "tech lead" and as such, explore all sorts of new technologies and
systems every day. But jeez, maybe I'm ADD. Appreciate the post!

~~~
cylinder
It's me, too. I am craving a more "chaotic" multifaceted career and have been
trying to make a change. But, who cares if some people created a term, ADD?
Clearly, humans didn't evolve to sit in a chair in a quiet room doing the same
thing all day. Do I have "ADD" when I'm running a massive event involving 200
participants with issues popping up all over the place, having to make quick
decisions on my feet and managing people? Not even close. Do I have "ADD" when
I'm sitting in an office doing rote paperwork tasks and answering the same
email over and over again? Hell yes I do. And I don't see anything wrong with
that. I see something wrong with those who think this is a "disorder." Which
type of job sounds closer to how humans spent their days 50,000 years ago?

By the way, parent, you and I are probably all INTP or similar.

I'm done fighting it and being depressed about it and now embrace it. I'm glad
I'm a generalist who would love nothing more than to try every job out there
once and am hungry to learn about all the complex things out there.

------
edabobojr
I might be too late for this one, but:

Daily exercise To-do list for EVERYTHING. If it isn't on the list I don't get
it done. Time-boxing and frequent breaks. Work a single task for 30 minutes.
Then switch to something else or take a 5 minute break.

------
chubasco
One thing that has always helped me is just simple meditation. It trains your
brain to rein-in focus, and after you have done it for a while you can recover
focus in just a few seconds if you find your mind wandering.

------
ashleyp
Find something i'm incredibly passionate about. Then I hyperfocus and go for
hours and LOVE IT. Medication interfears with my super productivity because it
prevents me mega-hyperfocusing.

------
slisla
Try nootropics, a good choline source (alpha-gpc), piracetam and aniracetam.
Rather than make your condition a problem they'll help you "go with it" and
leverage it. Also although I'm not sure of the exact mechanisms of action,
whatever it is that gets "drained" in context switching they seem to supply in
abundance and you'll be able to context switch all day long without resulting
fatigue. They are not stimulants, so don't expect a coffee "rush" ... the
effects are evident with mental work done at the end of the day. Another thing
that may help you: get into tDCS and use the "positive" side on the left side
of your brain with the negative on the right when you need to "focus
sequentially" ... but just make sure to balance that out with the reverse say,
on the weekends so as to not overly direct your brain in one direction at the
expense of balance. Holosync has worked for me as well although I'm not sure
of the reasons why, although there is much technical info that comes with the
free e-book from the website. It's a bit expensive, but I believe there is a
"trial" version on that site by those guys in IKEA land that have funny
replies to law firms threatening legal action for copyright infringement. Also
I highly recommend a workflowy subscription as a sort of "brian cache" of your
random trains of thought; you will need this especially if you try the
nootropic route because you will be able to work for many hours at will
pausing only for sleep. Also I would recommend you sample "focus@will" they
have an experimental ADD channel (maybe part of the free trial?) and there are
actually settings based on type (mostly sounds like Skrillex type music?).
Various binaural stuff you can find on YouTube for free and high quality goes
a long way. The point is any one of these is good, together they are greater
than the sum of the parts and your thing can not only be "managed" but
actually developed and directed to your advantage. Learn to use your super
power. Also I would highly recommend you meditate on the logic of what used to
be a nice niche game for the Mac a decade ago: Serenity. Basically it was a 3D
polynomial rendering game where you had to "float" but the more direct and
oriented the mouse movement, the worse the controls got. You had to "slow
down" your brain and move sloooowly, gradually, with much subtlety to gain
success. Then you got calm and sleep and could go to bed. Contrast that with
the fast, twitchy nature of modern ... everything - cartoons, video games,
movies, commercials, music ... and ask yourself if it contributes to your
situation if perhaps your brain is a bit more sensitive to such stimulation.
Learn when it's useful and when you need to isolate yourself from such inputs
so that they don't "tip you over." Good luck.

