
The curious pricing of the 27" iMac - AndrewWarner
http://www.marco.org/222434049
======
davidmathers
_there’s an entire high-end computer stuck to the back of it_

Actually, there's an entire _discount-parts_ ($150 cpu, $70 video card)
computer stuck to the back of it. If you configure it with high-end parts the
price goes up to $2200 and even then you're getting a previous-generation
video card (radeon 4850 rather than the new 5850).

It's not really so curious. Apple does the "make exclusive deal with a
supplier and beat the rest of the market by 6 months in order to look cool"
trick all the time. They did it with Intel for the Macbook Air CPU for
example.

What it must mean is that e-IPS panels cost much less to manufacture than
s-IPS panels. And that a new generation of higher-res e-IPS displays will be
arriving in 6 months.

EDIT: I googled "e-ips" and found this at
[http://www.displayblog.com/2009/02/13/lg-display-e-ips-
lcd-p...](http://www.displayblog.com/2009/02/13/lg-display-e-ips-lcd-panel-
update-2/)

 _LG Display has developed what it calls e-IPS. e-IPS is a version of the
company’s trademark IPS technology that brings the cost down. Way down. LG
Display target market is toward the larger LCD monitor market that is
currently dominated by TN (Twisted Nematic) technology. LG Display has stated
that its e-IPS LCD panels will be price competitive with TN LCD panels._

~~~
potatolicious
Bear in mind that the iMac uses almost exclusively laptop parts, which are
more expensive (but have better thermal profiles, and are of course smaller).

The only thing in an iMac that is desktop-sized is I believe the HDD (and
maybe the RAM? I'm not sure).

~~~
ptomato
The ram is laptop-sized. (Which also means, by the way, that Apple is _not_
gouging you for the RAM nearly as much as they usually do. They're still
gouging you, they're just taking out your eyes instead of half your head.)

------
yread
I dont think the price is that low. If you look at these cheap (and smaller)
(E-)IPS panels that are popping up (NEC EA231WMi 23"for 300 euro, dell's ips
for 200 or samsung c-pva for 200) i think its pretty obvious that its possible
to produce an inexpensive screen. The computer on the back might cost like 300
so I think there is still a decent margin for apple

~~~
elblanco
LG Claims that their e-IPS panels should be the same price as TN parts.

[http://www.displayblog.com/2009/01/28/lg-display-
lpl-23-e-ip...](http://www.displayblog.com/2009/01/28/lg-display-
lpl-23-e-ips-1080p-lcd-monitor-panel/)

------
Andys
I found the price strangely low.

As usual with any Apple release, I started some friendly banter with my Apple-
loving friends about how poor the value is compared to a regular PC, until I
got to the 27" Imac and realised you couldn't buy a screen that good,
elsewhere - at any price.

~~~
elblanco
Here are two.

[http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824005...](http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824005115)

[http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824176...](http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824176071)

~~~
randallsquared
No, both of those appear to be 2560 at 30", which is a lower DPI than the one
under discussion. Since that's the only way that the 27" screens are better
than the pre-existing 30" screens, it must be the metric that was meant.

~~~
mrkurt
That's 30" diagonal at a different aspect ratio (16:10), so the DPIs aren't as
far off as they sound. The bigger problem is that neither of the linked 30"
panels are LED backlit.

~~~
potatolicious
Also, the HP doesn't indicate panel type - which would suggest it's a TN
panel.

------
cyman
This is it. I think I am converting to a Mac. The last reason I didn't was
because there's a common perception that they're priced too high. Unless this
is a misprint, that time is over.

~~~
elblanco
$1700 for the next to lowest end offering _is_ too high. Dell doesn't even
break $1000 territory until you get to their upper end offerings. For $1700
you could buy two computers and a laptop (or two computers and two netbooks).

~~~
davidmathers
Dell doesn't sell a 27-inch 2560 by 1440 LED display. I would pay $1000 for it
today if it were for sale. Some people would pay more than me.

~~~
elblanco
I was talking about the computers. $1700 is far too much for a low end system,
monitor or no monitor. Those specs (sans display) are available for <$500. I'd
put the price on this system at no more than $1400 at the high end. Apple is
making a very nice margin on this kit.

But to that end the iMac isn't a LED display either, it's LED backlit.

If I could find a $1000 27" 2560x1440 LED or O-LED display I'd be in line in
front of you.

~~~
davidmathers
I'm not following you.

    
    
      $800 for the display
      $500 for the computer components
      $100 for the aluminum case
      $100 for the wireless keyboard and hi-tech mouse
      $100 for OS X and iLife
      $100 for beautiful industrial design
    

$1700 sounds like a fine deal to me.

I'm tempted to buy one right now, but I'm forcing myself to wait for the first
component refresh that will come in 6 or 8 months. Core 2 Duo is about to go
obsolete.

~~~
elblanco
Since when is $200 for design figured into the cost equation? And who pays
$100 for a wireless keyboard mouse combo?

$20
[http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823164...](http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823164005&cm_re=wireless_keyboard_mouse-_-23-164-005-_-Product)

you are at least $280 off on price.

~~~
davidmathers
Looks and form factor matter to me and are something I'm happy to pay for. I'm
not saying they should matter you. If you'd rather save $300 and buy a
computer in a standard plastic box, with trash peripherals that are only rated
1 egg, then you're welcome to it.

The number of people who spend $300 on just a case + power supply from newegg
when doing a custom pc build is not small.

~~~
elblanco
Fair enough.

But even when I threw together my last monster home machine from newegg I
don't think I spent more than $150 on case and power, and I even went hog wild
with lights and all kinds of fans and other sexy things.

Just because Apple felt that they needed to spent who knows how much R&D on a
new plastic unibody mold that nobody is impressed with much, in order to house
perfectly stock budget hardware doesn't mean that I think I should pay for
that.

~~~
potatolicious
_"that nobody is impressed with much"_

Have you been following the news at all? I know many non-technical people (and
technical people also) who are absolutely ecstatic about getting a MacBook
with the new body. People care about this shit - in fact I'd say it's the
minority that does not.

By the way, don't knock the unibody till you use one. My unibody MacBook Pro
has got to be the most solid machine I've ever used - handily beats any other
laptop on the market, including the venerable classic ThinkPads.

------
vegai
Perhaps the price of LCDs is about to drop sharply?

~~~
davidmathers
The price of IPS displays is dropping because LG has developed a new
technology called e-IPS that costs much less to make than s-IPS, which it's
replacing. The e-IPS displays still cost more than TN displays I think.

~~~
gcb
And by LG track record, it also saves tons of money ditching quality control
completely.

~~~
acgourley
Just curious, what gives you that impression?

~~~
GeneralMaximus
Not speaking for gcb here, but every single LG product I've owned has been
crap. In fact, my most common advice to family members who want to shop for
electronics is, "Get whatever you like, just make sure it's not LG or
Samsung".

~~~
weegee
I've had no problems with the Samsung components I've purchased. What kinds of
problems with Samsung did you have, or are you just spouting off with no data
to back your claim?

~~~
gcb
NO QA.

5yrs ago I bought a 15" LCD. got home, 5 dead pixels. back to the store, asked
to open the box there, had to attach to their POS to do testing. 3 dead
pixel... after opening the 3rd box i was satisfied.

now, last year, got a samsung 22" wide screen LCD. Got home, the border gloss
finish (talking about 7in of black shiny plastic) was hideously scratched.
back to the store. opened 1, 2, 3 box. no more in stock. took only the receipt
to a store in another part of town, opened 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. ok, got one with no
scratch. probably some thing scratching them on the assembly line. because the
protective foil plastic was OK above the scratches.

But i will buy samsung again :) at least, when i opened the LG and then the
samsung, the samsung one had little round QA stickers on the LCD panel :)

now, i've also have plenty of anecdotes about LG cdrom and cdram and recently
a dvdram driver, if you care. they are all about the laser life being like 40h
of work instead of the some-thousand they claim.

------
etherael
I never thought I'd find something that I'd actually consider buying from
Apple, this is the first product to break that rule, it's a really nice
monitor for a real computer, and if I feel like having a fap about how
designer I am, I can use the free mac... :D

------
ZeroGravitas
Can you use this as an external monitor?

A few folks, including this article, make it sound like you're buying a
monitor and getting a computer for "free". But if it's like previous iMacs
then you're buying a monitor that can _only_ be used with the "free" computer.

If that is the case then that's a good reason for Apple getting a good deal.
There's no way for this to cannibalize sales of actual monitors, unless the
buyer was planning to weld it irreversibly and permanently to a Mac mini.

Which also renders any price comparison moot. It's a thing unto itself, only
really directly comparable with other iMacs.

~~~
yardie
Yes, you can. The display port is bi-directional. In a sort of quirky way.
Apple has addressed one of the longest lingering questions of the iMac line
(and basically all AIO lines). People upgrade the PC but could reuse the
display. With an AIO everything had to go.

~~~
maukdaddy
The one problem, at least environmentally, is that you can't use the display
without also having the entire "computer" part running. This means you're
consuming XX extra watts the entire time.

~~~
harpastum
I'm not sure of this, but I assume the default behavior would be putting the
imac itself to sleep when it was connected to an external video source. This
would use a bit more power than a simple display, but not much.

------
jbellis
Great, a new resolution with even _less_ vertical pixels.

I still miss 4:3. Much better for programming.

~~~
brunoc
I flipped both my 4:3 monitors (19") to display vertically. They are
1024x1080. I don't think I'll ever go back to horizontal.

~~~
eli
I've been thinking of doing that. Was it a pain to reattach the mount?

~~~
gcb
what kind of comment is that?

if it's standard vesa, 4 screws.

------
Tichy
I would guess the real reason is mentioned at the end: there really is not
much of a point in buying a desktop PC anymore (unless you are a hardcore
gamer). It makes much more sense to buy a notebook and attach it to an
external monitor when working at home.

Also prices for flatscreens are dropping all the time. If the Dell 30'' also
has the special panel, and only is lacking in some other specs, maybe
enhancing those other specs is not as expensive as adding the better panel
type (whether they are important or not is another matter - if you WANT to
spend a lot of money, you can always find a reason, like "this audio system
does not have gold coated cables" or whatever).

In any case this makes me hope for a price drop of the 30'' Dell displays...

~~~
Retric
I have a laptop from work that can I take with me on trips.

I also have an iPhone for internet access on the go. So I don't see the need
to buy another portable computer.

~~~
Tichy
The point is not having to sync stuff between multiple computers. Of course if
you fully embrace "the cloud" it might be less of an issue, but that is not
for everyone.

------
mechanical_fish
This is making me wish I'd read the article that went by a couple days ago
with a headline like "Are new Apple iMacs a harbinger of the new Apple TV?"

Because if I felt like mongering a crazy Apple-related rumor on a subject
which I know nothing about [1], I'd guess that one good way to get a
manufacturer to grant you a crazy price break is to tell them that, as soon as
they can ramp up production to the necessary levels, Apple will release an
Ive-designed Apple-branded TV with their parts inside it and have Steve Jobs
stand on stage to promote that TV.

\---

[1] Which, according to the empirical evidence of this post, I apparently do.
I need to get some more sleep.

~~~
kburn
Apple would have to get their playback environment up to media center
standards. Even the Apple TV was a usability nightmare by home theater
standards.

------
morphir
when I got my Macbook Alu - I got baffled by its high quality and sleekness.
The 13" Macbook Alu was a bargain relative to its quality. When I experienced
the unboxing, I felt like a 16 year old virgin girl..and I'm a boy.. _ehehe_

One year later - and there are still no other company that can offer a similar
high quality laptop. Thinkpad has pretty much crashed and burned after china
got their hands the product management.

I guarantee you that this 27" will provide a first time apple owner with a
unboxing experience you will never forget. It will simply raise the bar for
how you perceive quality.

~~~
Tichy
"It will simply raise the bar for how you perceive quality."

Unless you have to return it three times before you receive one that has no
extreme production flaws (happened to a friend with his iMac - mind you, he is
still an Apple fan boy despite of that experience...).

~~~
morphir
all mass production companies have products that fail now and then. But ok,
what computer/brand would you recommend?

~~~
Tichy
I am not up to date on hardware at the moment, so I can't comment. Usually I
check Dell first (but the notebooks tend to be too ugly, so I can't really
recommend them. I don't know their current lineup).

For notebooks I tend to like Samsung, but at the moment unfortunately they use
that awful shiny Klavierlack coating (as do many other hardware
manufacturers). Hope that goes away soon, then they might be recommendable
again.

------
barrkel
The Dell monitor pricing he quotes - $1200 for LCD - is pretty gougey too.
Dell hardware is generally bad value unless it's on special offer, a bare-
bones system (in which case it'll lack extensibility), or part of a corporate
purchase.

~~~
Tichy
My 24'' monitor from Dell is great, it was not very expensive, and it has
served me well for years now. I think you generalize too much (also, never buy
from the consumer section). My X1 from Dell is also great, I love it much more
than my generic MacBook.

~~~
barrkel
My Dell 2407WFP is great too, but I bought it at a 40% discount. The price
fluctuated between list and discount at seemingly random intervals.

~~~
Tichy
True, at Dell you have to catch the right moment. But I suppose there is a
system behind it, maybe if it is important one could figure it out (also,
always CALL Dell - usually they can give you better prices).

Maybe if you need a monitor right now, it is a problem. But I had another one,
and when I heard about the good price, I just upgraded at that moment. Could
have been any other moment, too.

~~~
yardie
It's an accounting trick. Dell needs to sell a certain amount of goods every
quarter. Well they price things to move and load any debt onto next quarters
books. Eventually you reach a point like today. Dell has so much debt that it
eats into future earnings. This reflects in the stock price. Apple's market
cap is 160billion dollars, with 35 billion in reserve. Dells cap is 30 billion
dollars. Realistically, Apple could buy Dell in cash.

While the deals are great for endusers, they are cutting their own throats to
move product. One thing you can't ignore about Apple, they make profit on
everything they sell (no loss leaders there). To an investor, that is a good
buy.

------
lyime
LCD display(not panels) makers manufacturers still make decent margin. There
is a reason why these guys keep selling these things with a lot of competition
on price.

Apple is most likely still making a nice ~20% margin on the 27" iMacs.

------
jrockway
$1700 seems like a pretty good price for that. I hate Apple, but could almost
see myself replacing my 4-year-old laptop (which I never undock) + 24" monitor
with one of these. (I would not keep OS X, of course.)

~~~
chrischen
Why? Are you a Microsoft programmer?

~~~
jrockway
No, but OS X does not work for me. It powers a computer under my TV that I use
for watching movies, but it doesn't even do well for that task. (OSX's VLC
often crashes, NicePlayer can't play partial AVI files, the built-in DVD
player doesn't let you skip the ads at the beginning, etc.)

For development, I could never use OS X. I rarely use the mouse, and I need a
package manager for installing random libraries. I tried this on OS X and it
just doesn't work as well as Debian. Emacs also doesn't work right.

A unique monitor with generic Intel hardware running Linux is a great
computer. That with OS X and it's just a paperweight. Your mileage may vary,
but I have to say that my eyebrow raises itself a bit when I hear a developer
say they use OS X.

~~~
jawngee
Why would your eyebrow raise a bit when you hear a developer say they use any
particular OS?

What do you gain by having such rigors? Why do you assume your opinion is
absolute? (Which is must be for you to cock an eyebrow in what I'm assuming is
disgust or mistrust).

What do you do when someone tells you they develop on Windows? I'm imagining a
groin pull, or something of that magnitude.

~~~
jrockway
I am just surprised. I remember how much stress I went through to get basic
things working, and I am surprised that other people were willing to waste so
much time. (Example: installing libxml2 for XML::LibXML and the system perl.)

So it's not disgust at all, it's just shock. I keep hearing how nice of a
development platform it is, but I couldn't get even the simplest things to
work. (I used OS X for 2 or 3 years about 4 years ago. I still use it for my
under-TV computer, as I am too lazy to configure Ubuntu there. But I am close
to not being too lazy...)

Anyway, Linux is broken for many users, but not those that use conkeror,
emacs, urxvt, xmonad and has Intel wireless and video. I am the user that
Linux is best for.

~~~
jawngee
That makes more sense :)

------
elblanco
$300 Mac Netbook.

[http://gizmodo.com/5389166/how-to-hackintosh-a-dell-
mini-10v...](http://gizmodo.com/5389166/how-to-hackintosh-a-dell-
mini-10v-into-the-ultimate-os-x-netbook)

------
zandorg
This 15" HP Omnibook 6100 (made in 2001) has a huge (1400x1050) screen - I
can't find anything like it.

~~~
mbreese
That's a common resolution. I have a Thinkpad T42 with that same 15" screen,
although, that resolution equally common at 14" (my wife has a T43 with that
resolution).

The iMac 27" is really a unique resolution, largely due to I believe, the
change in aspect ratio.

------
eleitl
Dell 27" sells for 879 USD. Dell's 30" for about 1200 USD.

So, no, the computer at the back is not exactly free.

~~~
potatolicious
[http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/products/Monitors/product...](http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/products/Monitors/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=dhs&cs=19&sku=223-9379)

 _"Panel Type: VA - Vertical alignment"_

The Apple screen, on top of being higher resolution, is also a IPS panel,
which gives much better viewing angles as well as color reproduction. It is
the _only_ type of LCD suitable for photo/video work.

For a bunch of people who complain a lot about getting good value for your
dollar (and how Apple doesn't do that), you sure are misinformed about the
gear you're buying. I suppose as long as it throws _some_ kind of image up on
screen it's good right?

~~~
eleitl
Nice that you assume I don't know what kind of panels Dell uses (currently
e-IPS and S-PVA, 8 bit) while Apple hitherto was, to put it politely, not
known for using quality panels in their offering (TN <cough> 6 bit
<coughcough>). I'm glad to Cupertino is at least up to snuff when it comes to
Dell. Took sure their sweet time doing that.

The only kind of displays suitable for professional work are the expensive
kind that comes with an external calibrator. Neither Dell nor Apple sells
these.

Next time, please don't assume people are ignorant.

