
Porsche's Electric Mission E Is Poised to Compete with Tesla's Model S - dmmalam
http://www.wired.com/2015/12/porsches-electric-mission-e-is-poised-to-whoop-teslas-model-s/?mbid=social_fb
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johnloeber
> Porsche's Mission E is poised to compete with Tesla's Model S

No it isn't. Tesla's Model S is in production, and has been for two years.
Porsche's Mission E isn't even near production yet. Even the details about the
production car's final range and horsepower seem to be tentative. The only
serious advantage the car would have over the Tesla would be the 15 minute
charger, which apparently isn't finished yet.

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scurvy
> The only serious advantage the car would have over the Tesla would be the 15
> minute charger, which apparently isn't finished yet.

The Mission E looks much, much better than any Tesla model.

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dnautics
The Mission E's aesthetic appeals to a certain class of person that would buy
a luxury sports model.

The Tesla appeals to a different class of person who is purchasing a car for
different symbolic reasons.

Initially, the Toyota Prius 2nd Gen was panned for its ugly look, but
ultimately its distinctiveness became a marketing point as it became a status
symbol of its own right - as evidenced by Honda copying it in its 2nd
generation Insight.

The subjective qualities that define the 'desirable look' of the Misson E may
be rejected by some segments of the Tesla market.

~~~
Avshalom
I feel like Tesla's Slighty-More-Practical-Astin design is pretty solidly
aimed at the the same crowd as Porsche's Slightly-More-Practical-911 design.

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joshu
Astin?

~~~
btreesOfSpring
you can probably assume aston martin here.

~~~
ams6110
That look is decidedly generic these days. Ford copied it on the Fusion, a
solidly middle-class family car. The 911 look is classic, distinctive, and
timeless.

~~~
nl
The Mission E looks good. 911 styling cues aren't the reason though - see the
Panamera for how bad the 'turn the 911 into a sports sedan' can look.

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rsync
The real news here is not which car has the best 0-60 time or +/\- 5% in the
range department ... it's that there is now _more than one car_ for sale.

There is a certain class/mindset/attitude of car buyer that _even if they don
't have a tesla now_ is just never going to buy a ICE car again. It doesn't
matter the price or the specs or the this or the that - the ship has sailed
and history has moved on.

The problem is, there were no options other than the Tesla. Or at least, no
options that weren't, essentially, onion-esque parodies of what electric cars
are (I'm looking at you, super lame mercedes B-class).

So it is great, great, great news that there will be more than one car to
choose from.

~~~
Corrado
I completely agree with you! I have tasted the Tesla fruit and have absolutely
no desire to have anything to do with an ICE car ever again. I'm a long time
Porsche lover and I used to dream of owning a 911 in the flesh. Now, not so
much. In fact, on the same day that I drove the Tesla I visited a Porsche/Audi
dealership and found myself not even caring about their cars at all. I found
them bulky, small, and uncomfortable. It was truly a sad day for me, until the
Tesla guy said "You wanna drive one?" That changed my life. :)

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rebootthesystem
From my perspective the elephant in the room is something Tesla is unlikely to
be able to compete against, particularly as more manufacturers come online
with viable full range electric cars: Constant innovation.

What I mean by that is car companies are geared-up and used to introducing new
and seriously updated models every year or two. They go through many
iterations and designs, have hits and misses. And they sell millions of cars
per year in the process.

In another year or two the Model S will feel, well, dated and old. I have to
admit having had this very thought. I've been considering purchasing one for
the past year and was going to make a decision in January. And I keep running
in circles with multiple arguments in my head.

First there's the "this look is getting old" argument. Sorry, superficial,
but, hey, that's the way it works. This this wasn't a real-life criteria we
all use to buy cars they would still look the way they did twenty years ago
because nobody would care.

Then there's the interior. As others have pointed out, not the best. I'll just
leave it at that.

I find my self less interested in a car who's outward and interior design is
already several years old.

I am not interested in a Tesla because I am a fan boy. I am not. I would like
an electric car because I have a nice solar infrastructure at home that I
designed to be able to support two electric cars. I also want to stop burning
fossil fuel for transportation. I am also very interested in lane-keeping or
auto-pilot technologies while on a highway. And, finally, it is a business
decision based on facts: I find myself driving quite a few miles per week and,
if you do the math, going electric just makes sense.

Then there's the question of battery technology. I can't help but think we are
not very far from a shift in battery technology. I, frankly, don't want to
find myself in two or three years with a US $90K Tesla sporting an outdated
battery, outdated exterior and outdated interior and a tough resale landscape
because Toyota, Nissan, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Ford, GM and even Yugo (raise
your hand if you remember them) has a pure electric with 200+ mile range for
$40K.

All car companies know how to make electrics. It ain't that difficult when
compared to making IC cars. In fact, if you already have a well-tuned
infrastructure to build the rest of the car efficiently --which all other car
companies have in droves-- building an electric car is actually simpler.

Tesla's SUV? Please. It's a joke.

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aianus
> Toyota, Nissan, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Ford, GM and even Yugo (raise your
> hand if you remember them) has a pure electric with 200+ mile range for
> $40K.

Why would any of those companies leapfrog Tesla in battery technology when
that's literally Tesla's core competency and they're poised to become the
largest battery manufacturer in world?

~~~
rebootthesystem
No, Tesla might know how to assemble a battery pack for use in a car but their
core competency isn't battery technology. Last time I checked the cells used
in their cars are made by Panasonic. Also, I am pretty sure the Gigafactory is
a partnership with Panasonic.

There are companies, much larger and far more experienced than Tesla who have
been working on battery technology for far longer.

I've been flying model airplanes for thirty years. When electric flight was in
it's infancy we used heavy NiCd battery packs. I had competition gliders with
six pounds of NiCd batteries occupying a huge volume.

Fast forward to a few years ago (about a decade?) when LiPo chemistry started
to become available. Today I fly that same glider with a battery pack that is
half the volume, a third of the weight, four times the energy content and
probably twice the power delivery capability.

Tesla didn't do that. Companies like Sanyo, Panasonic, Samsung and other
battery makers did that. The primary market probably being portable computers
and later smart phones and all manner of small portable devices.

I doubt these companies have been sitting around doing nothing. They all know
the next major market for them is in electric cars. Tesla does not manufacture
their own cells, therefore it is probably safe to assume the next major
evolutionary step in battery technology is likely to come for those who's core
competency for decades has been energy storage chemistry.

That said, Tesla and SpaceX are known for their out of the box approach to
engineering. There's no reason to think that, perhaps, they might have a
unique take on cell chemistry that might be that next-generation battery pack
with twice the energy in half the volume. That remains to be seen. Here's the
thing with physics and chemistry: They tend not to change just because you are
a maverick. There's a lot of knowledge out there and Tesla does not have a
monopoly on that.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a US company own the next generation
of battery technology. I just think that isn't likely to be the case.

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intopieces
>They’re working on an 800-volt charger that will power the car up to 80
percent in just 15 minutes, half the time it takes the Tesla.

Not another charger! I suppose the Porsche market isn't filled with range-
anxious commuters, though.

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threeseed
It could be more than the Porsche market though.

It is part of the Volkswagen group which means the combination of Porsche, VW,
Audi could put some market weight behind the charging implementation.

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ableal
> The motor (or motors, Porsche hasn’t said)

One of these days I'd like to know why there are no (well known) one-motor-
per-wheel proposals.

So much fun to be had with trajectory control ...

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kinofcain
Hub motors are heavy and unsprung weight is bad. If you're going inboard with
driveshafts you might as well put a differential in there and be able to put
more than 50% (2wd) or 25%(4wd) of power to one wheel. Putting a motor in each
wheel means you can only direct power around by reducing it.

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vvanders
Nope.

Tesla current beats them on almost all marks:

310 Mile range: This is using the UK cycle which is commonly compared to EPA
cycle(which is lower). Using UK to UK you get:

    
    
        - ~320mi range P90D / P90DL
    
        - 350mi range 90D
    

3.5s 0-60:

    
    
        - P90DL: 2.8s
    
        - P85D/90D: 3.2s
    

Price: Rumors are in the ~200k range which again Tesla can beat(you can get an
85D for half that with better range and 0-60 which is close).

As for the 15min charging. We haven't seen it in production at all. Also the
fact that they're going with 800 VDC pack means there's a good chance it won't
work with any other DCFC standard(CHAdeMO, SAE Combo, SuperCharger) without a
step-up transformer so you'll be limited to _only_ Porsche's chargers.

Also you can buy a Tesla today, not years down the line.

I really don't understand where all this "Porsche is going to beat Tesla"
press comes from, it's like Apple claiming they were the first company to
support Open Source, there's nothing to back it up.

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ams6110
Porsche have an established worldwide dealer and service network. That will
give some confidence to certain buyers. If I wanted a Tesla (I don't) I would
not know where to buy one or where to have it serviced. I know where the
nearest Porsche dealership is, by contrast.

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henrikschroder
> I would not know where to buy one or where to have it serviced.

You are on a technology news site, and you are seriously arguing against
buying a Tesla because you don't know where their nearest store are, despite
this being _trivially_ easy to look up on the internet?

Here. You buy them here:
[https://www.teslamotors.com/](https://www.teslamotors.com/)

~~~
ams6110
I'm not arguing against buying a Tesla. I'm saying that Porsche has a much
more established and well-known dealer presence and that will be a factor for
some people in deciding what they want to buy.

