

 Facebook aims to knock Cisco down a peg with open network hardware - velodrome
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/05/facebook-aims-to-knock-cisco-down-a-peg-with-open-network-hardware/

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mprovost
SDN and OpenFlow are great if you're a company full of programmers like
Facebook and Google are. They approach everything as a software problem. For
many (most?) other companies the network is just something that has to work
and not a core part of their business. You need to be able to hire a network
engineer that can come in cold, with a bunch of vendor certifications on their
CV, and understand your network. Most places don't want to hire a programmer
to sit around and code up new spanning tree algorithms for their network. They
just want to plug servers in and have it work. The people that are interested
in SDN are running into the limits of what OSPF/BGP/MPLS can do and are going
to work around it but many places don't run networks that complex in the first
place.

I think there are a lot of gains to be made from changing the industry though,
for the first time the hardware is becoming a commodity made by Broadcom and
Intel (Fulcrum) just like servers. In the past you bought Ciscos or Junipers
to get the custom ASICs that made the thing work, those days are coming to and
end. But I wouldn't count the big companies out just yet, they have a massive
head start writing software and have huge service organisations and a whole
industry full of engineers that have paid to get certified on their hardware
and aren't going to want to see the value of that education fall to zero. The
winners are going to be the hardware companies that really are software
companies at heart - Juniper and Arista are the best examples. Cisco has
always loved its hardware and been way behind on software development.

~~~
illuminate
"They approach everything as a software problem. For many (most?) other
companies the network is just something that has to work and not a core part
of their business. You need to be able to hire a network engineer that can
come in cold, with a bunch of vendor certifications on their CV, and
understand your network. Most places don't want to hire a programmer to sit
around and code up new spanning tree algorithms for their network. They just
want to plug servers in and have it work"

Do you not need network engineers to implement Cisco products?

~~~
mprovost
Yes but they aren't programmers. Configuring routers using vendor tools and
standard protocols is a different thing to SDN where all bets are off. It's
going to take a different skill set - some people will make the transition and
some won't. All of the major network vendors (most notably Cisco) have put a
lot of effort into their education programs so that there is a certified pool
of talent out there to run their equipment. And all of those people have a
vested interest in the status quo. The OpenFlow talks that I've attended have
been presented by people that are openly hostile to network engineers which
doesn't help the situation.

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Ironlink
For those interested, Google has been using OpenFlow for some time now. This
presentation by Urs Hölzle is about a year old:

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLHJUfgxEO4>

Slides: [http://www.opennetsummit.org/archives/apr12/hoelzle-tue-
open...](http://www.opennetsummit.org/archives/apr12/hoelzle-tue-openflow.pdf)

~~~
deelowe
Funny how this didn't make as much waves back then when they announced it. I
honestly think it went over everyone's head.

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dhess
I would love to buy a server that conforms to Open Compute and a rack that
conforms to Open Rack. Where can I do that?

~~~
ericcoleman
Quick google search turned up:

Penguin Computing:
[http://www.penguincomputing.com/Products/OpenComputeSolution...](http://www.penguincomputing.com/Products/OpenComputeSolutions)

Silicon Mechanics: <http://www.siliconmechanics.com/c1345>

~~~
wmf
That Silicon Mechanics stuff is obsolete and the Penguin servers don't look
like OCP at all.

~~~
throwaway1701
Former Silicon Mechanics employee here.

While I was working there, we had between zero and no interest whatsoever from
anybody in actually seriously trying to purchase anything OpenCompute.

Apparently some board members used to work with some higher-ups at Facebook,
so the project is sticking around for a while despite the total lack of
interest.

If there's any actual real-world interest in OpenCompute stuff, you HAVE to
reach out and ask or it's going to disappear.

~~~
wmf
Good point, although I suspect people who are willing to reach out are going
to the ODMs and people who have interest in clicking the "buy now" button
cannot express that interest because there is no "buy now" button.

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bluedino
This is just like the big server vendors (IBM, Dell and HP) losing all their
sales to big companies, because they are buying their own designs direct from
companies like ZT and Hyve.

What's left, storage systems?

~~~
druiid
Already being worked on really. It's more blob-storage oriented, but take a
look at Openstack Swift if you haven't before or Ceph. Lots of other projects
out there.

If you don't specifically mean block-storage type software and more open
replacements for Netapp/EMC gear, someone else might be the better one to
chime in.

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quesera
Long overdue.

Cisco is in trouble for a lot of reasons, but this might be the straw that
breaks the backplane. Routers and switches make the world go 'round on Tasman
Drive...

The timer is running on Chambers' resignation. I don't think he'll be fired --
he's too established and congenial -- but I also don't think he wants to run a
company 1/3rd of Cisco's size

~~~
lmg643
Agreed. Plus, this may be the coolest thing going on at Facebook.

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nixisfun
People don't buy Cisco just for the box with ports and blinky lights. They buy
them for the supportability. As for a business they depend on here network to
run and as mprovost mentioned you can take some one cold who has networking
experience and If they have half a brain they should be able to fix your
network. All Cisco has spawned a whole Eco system of vars who exist throughout
the world and can have replacement parts onsite in 4 hours or less. Also Cisco
provides code scrubs and a range of other features. So unless some vendor can
build these magical switches and provide support they will never be a serious
option in any environment.

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minimax
What is the advantage you get from having a sophisticated software stack on a
top of rack switch? I was under the impression that you only really configured
vlans and maybe a span port every now and again. Someone care to enlighten me?

~~~
csears
In many common environments (single-tenant, fairly static configs) it probably
doesn't make sense to use an SDN. However, if your environment looks more like
EC2's, with lots of VMs/apps/services, lots of tenants, and lots of virtual
networks, you need some way create an overlay that provides logical layer 2
switching beyond what simple VLANs can provide. For example, if I want to
migrate a running VM from one host to another, it would be nice if the top of
rack switches could be made aware of the change as it happens so CAM tables
could be updated on the fly. Cisco and VMware do something similar today with
the DVS and Nexus 1000v virtual switches, and a lot of the OpenFlow/SDN
vendors are hoping to extend that type of dynamic orchestration out to
physical switches as well.

~~~
mdellabitta
> if I want to migrate a running VM from one host to another

If only you could do this on EC2. >_<

