

Ask HN: Feeling lost and defeated. Need career advice. - lostsoul

Background: I graduated last May, and started working for a BigCo. I've only been there 6 months, and I've been less than impressed with my experience so far. At the BigCo, I'm in a 2-year program that consists of 4 six-month cycles where I'm placed in different divisions of the company. For my first one, I'm doing development, but my background is in marketing and design. Here are my questions:<p>- For the first six-month cycle, I'm unable to get any work done. I just don't enjoy coding, and there's a real possibility that I won't finish my project. How should I approach this? I've got about a month left, and I think I can get about 50-60% of it done. In college, not finishing isn't that big of deal since you get do-overs, but how bad is it in real life? And what can I do if I don't finish? How should I approach this with my manager? Should I be worried about getting let go before the 2nd cycle starts?<p>- Is it too early to switch jobs? I've interned at smaller companies, and my experience so far has shown me I'm not meant for a big company. But how bad does it look if I switch after only 6 months? If you're a startup founder, would you question someone's loyalty if they switch jobs after only 6 months?<p>- How do I approach smaller companies if I want to work in business / product / design / marketing related roles? Most job positions I see say they require 2-3 years of experience. I did stuff besides my classes in college - fundraisers (raised $3500+), conferences (400+ people) etc. and I know I can get shit done. Even if I stay at BigCo, I doubt I'll have any real experiences that can apply to smaller companies.<p>Thanks! [I contribute to HN using another username, using a throwaway account because some of my colleagues <i>could be</i> regular readers]
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elliottcarlson
If you are not able to finish your project on time, you need to tell your
manager as soon as possible. You may not have the experience to get it done,
and that is fine in my opinion, but if there are deadlines, your manager needs
to know sooner than later for damage control. As you said, there are possible
do-overs when in college, but you need to do what you can to make a project
succeed, even if that means admitting failure - it's a life lesson, failure
should be acceptable, just make sure that your own failure doesn't affect
others.

You are almost at the end of your coding stint cycle - is the next six-month
cycle more along your lines of what you want to do? If not, then I would look
for something else. You have a goal of what you want to accomplish, and
working on something that isn't even your field does not make sense for your
future.

I'm not a startup founder, but I do at times question when people have tons of
short stint jobs - but if it's only one, then no big deal - a history of short
stints here and there can raise concern, but even then it won't be an ultimate
deciding factor when I choose to hire someone.

Make sure your resume reflects your additional activities while in college -
they may not be as necessary on there when you have more of a job history, but
when you are first starting your resume, you want your potential employer to
know what you are capable of - and this will get you callbacks where you can
go in to more detail.

Good luck!

~~~
lostsoul
Thanks for the advice Elliot. Throughout the process, I've been open about my
technical skills with my manager, but he keeps saying he has full confidence I
can get it done; without any real advice. Luckily, its more of an independent
internal project that replaces a process that's more manual right now, so it
doesn't affect anything else.

Yes, the next cycle is more related to what I do, but I don't want to get a
reputation as someone who can't get stuff done; it's just that I feel 6 months
is not enough time to learn a completely new language, especially when it took
3 months just to figure out the project requirements.

~~~
elliottcarlson
It's not necessarily your fault if you can't get it done in time - you were
thrown in to a position you weren't familiar with - though I stand by the fact
that you should tell your manager you are in need of help with it - whether
it's internal or not. It will show that you are able to handle a project even
when it has potential to fail, which is a real world scenario - it's just as
important of a skill as being able to get stuff done.

If you feel that BigCo, and companies of that size are really not your thing,
then you need to do what will make you happy. It's a fact that you will at
times have to do work you will not like, that's just life, but if you are sure
that the larger company environment is not for you, which is fine - it's not
for everyone, then you need to make a decision... if you feel that your lack
of experience will hamper your progress though, then it might be in your best
interest to wait it out and gain that experience at BigCo which hopefully is a
big name that will look good on the resume. This is a big decision, make sure
you read mine and everyone elses advice and really contemplate what you will
be doing - even if it's early in your career.

------
HeyLaughingBoy
First, you don't realize how lucky you are: there are thousands of posts
across the web about people complaining that their employers give them no
training at all and you're basically getting 2 years of "apprenticeship"
training right off the bat.

 _Make the most of it. It will never happen again!_ This is old-skool training
and more companies should be doing it.

Second, your manager needs to know ASAP that you can't finish. Whatever the
consequences of not finishing are, they will be much worse if it's a surprise
to him at the deadline. Just walk into his office and TELL HIM. Don't
sugarcoat it, just explain what's going on. I've had to deal with exactly this
situation in the past month. It happens, we deal with it.

People not being able to do the work isn't new to any experienced manager,
he'll figure something out: that's his job. Yours is to keep him up to date.

How bad is it in real life? In real life, not finishing a project on time can
be the end of a company. I sincerely doubt you are doing anything that
crucial, but you asked. _Things get a lot more important when people are
paying you to do them_ We all do shit that we "just don't enjoy" but we're
paid to do them well anyway. It's not like they expect you to do this for the
rest of your time there.

Don't switch jobs unless you are otherwise a _fantastic_ candidate and you can
come up with an amazing excuse in the interview for why you only lasted 6
months. And it had better be along the lines of "the boss beat me daily with a
stick because I wouldn't wash his car." No, I'm not kidding.

What college did you go to that you got "do-overs?" Friggin' lucky. If we were
late on an assignment, it was an automatic 50% off and got worse with each
passing day (sometimes hourly).

This isn't a rant, and I'm not picking on you. I read inexperience in your
post and I think you have a great opportunity you're about to throw away.
Think carefully before you do.

~~~
elliottcarlson

        Don't switch jobs unless you are otherwise a fantastic candidate and you can come up with an amazing excuse in the interview for why you only lasted 6 months. And it had better be along the lines of "the boss beat me daily with a stick because I wouldn't wash his car." No, I'm not kidding.
    

I completely disagree with this statement - a job needs to go both ways, and
just like some companies will make the wrong decision in the hiring process, a
job applicant will make the wrong decision in which job to accept. It happens.
Just don't make it a pattern - because then it's an issue.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
It's perfectly reasonable to leave a job after six months. Hell, it's
reasonable to leave after the first day if you can see that life is going to
suck.

But in real life, the next person to interview you will want to know why you
left so soon. If your answer is along the lines of "I was being rotated
through different departments for training and I didn't like the first
rotation" that person will probably not hire you, expecting that you'll leave
the first time things don't go your way.

You are correct that an applicant can make the wrong decision, but that's not
what matters. What matters is how he responds to making that decision.

~~~
elliottcarlson
If the company is rotating him to positions that aren't his line of work, or
what he studied for then I think it's a perfectly reasonable reason - he
should be prepared to explain it more than "I didn't like it" - because that
would be an issue, but otherwise I don't see the harm. In the end he needs to
be sure that he is making the right choice in leaving and deal with the
consequences if it's the wrong decision - or possibly be happier else where if
it's the right decision.

~~~
lostsoul
As I mentioned previously, the 2nd cycle is more along the lines of what I
studied for. More than that, I think I realize that I'm not meant for a BigCo
and startups want a certain level of experience, and rightly so.

------
Skywing
Consider the coding project at work an investment in yourself. You're right,
this isn't college anymore. Your performance at work and in groups directly
affects your co-workers perception of you. Sure, if you truly hate the place
then you probably won't care, but people are very good at detecting when other
people truly dislike their job. This has a full circle impact. Getting
yourself into this mentality will only make your experiences at that company
less enjoyable for all the wrong reasons. If you actually cannot handle the
task that you have been assigned, then speak up. Tell your project manager how
you feel. Somewhere along the way you obviously gave them the impression that
you were fine with the programming tasks, so they most likely are just not
aware of your feelings towards programming. I would just advise against
"giving up" and subconsciously forcing yourself out of that position or
company.

And of course you can always change jobs. If you dislike this company and can
already tell that the big corporate life style isn't your thing then start
looking for new jobs. Too early to switch jobs? I'd rather find one that I
like now instead of 5 years from now.

~~~
lostsoul
I was open about my previous experience when I started; I told them first-day
that I have limited coding experience, and had not used the language they
wanted me to develop in.

In terms of switching jobs - I'm worried about appearing disloyal, and how it
will look on my resume down the line.

------
dwc
I don't understand why you're in a development position when you know you
don't like it. And you're working for BigCo when you don't like it.

Don't worry too much about switching after six months at this point. You just
graduated and you're finding your place in the world. Explain yourself as
you've done here, and don't make it a long-term pattern. The best way not to
make it a long-term pattern is to find the kind of company you want to work
for, doing work you like and are good at.

As for how to get in somewhere... I had heard that if you really wanted to
work somewhere then you should let them know, and also follow up. Once I
picked a place that I wanted to work and I applied. They turned me down,
saying there were no openings (I just cold applied, not in response to a job
listing). Every few weeks I checked back with them. Yes, they hired me. ;-) I
only did this once, but that makes my success rate 100%. YMMV.

~~~
lostsoul
That sounds awesome dwc, I'm definitely with you on the power of persistence.
Thanks for responding :)!

------
ig1
If you're coming to the end of your cycle at the end of this month why are you
thinking about leaving anyway - why not see how you find the next placement
before you make any decisions?

Talk to your manager and explain that you're not going to make the deadline,
you're not going to be the first person to have missed a deadline and I doubt
you'll be the last. It's highly unlikely that you'll get fired.

~~~
lostsoul
Thanks for replying Imran. I'm definitely going to wait to see how I like the
second placement, but I was worried about how companies generally deal with <
100% success with deliverables.

~~~
zb
Projects going over schedule are, uh, not exactly an uncommon occurrence. In
fact if you've been honest with your manager about your level of skill (as you
said in another comment) and assuming you've been keeping him up to date with
progress and he hasn't done anything to get the project back on track (like
getting you a mentor to work with), then it's really more his responsibility
than yours if you don't finish. (That's not to say he's doing it wrong - this
may be a deliberate strategy on his part; it's obviously not a life-or-death
project.)

On the other hand, if you wait until the last day before announcing that
you're only 60% done, that _is_ your responsibility. Don't be that guy. You
should be talking to your manager now about how far along you are and what is
an achievable state to leave the project in for somebody else to pick up
(actually you should have started this some time back if you haven't already).
e.g. you mentioned a lot of work went into gathering requirements - if you are
not going to finish the project then that work probably needs to be captured.

Communication is the key, and that's got nothing to do with whether you're
doing coding or marketing. Nobody is going to make any inferences about your
marketing abilities from your coding abilities or vice-versa, but if you prove
yourself incapable of communicating with your team in either placement then,
well, that would be the time to start getting worried.

Failure is not always bad, but trying to cover up failure always leads to
very, very bad things and it never, ever works. Remember that and you'll be
fine.

------
atlantic
You are raising two distinct issues. First, a situation in which you cannot
finish your project on time. Second, the fact that the job/company does not
meet your expectations.

Before doing anything about the second point, deal with the first. Normally
managers should only assign tasks that are possible, relative both to the
timeframe and to your skillset. If you have the right skills and enough time,
then you should do whatever it takes to finish, even in your own time,
otherwise your self-confidence will suffer. If the time is too tight and/or
you do not have the necessary skills/experience/training to do the job, then
raise the issue with the manager more forcefully and asap. Repeat your message
in an e-mail so that your complaint is officially registered and acknowledged.
If there is a mismatch between the job description, as spelled out in your
contract, and your actual work, this is also a legitimate issue.

Once the first problem is out of the way, and you are again feeling
comfortable at work, deal with the second issue. It is always legitimate to
seek better work. The best way to switch jobs is to find a new job while still
holding the old job. It is a catch-22 fact of life that no-one likes to give a
job to someone who does not have one. Also, you will be in a much stronger
negotiating position if you are still receiving a salary. When you go to an
interview, argue along the lines that the job is going fine (do _not_
criticize your old company/manager) and everyone is happy with your
performance, but that you feel you need more challenge/less routine/a better
fit to your skillset/a smaller environment etc.

Good luck. Starting out in the world of employment is always a difficult time
in life. Things will work out.

------
soyelmango
About switching jobs - 2 great articles from Mark Suster's 'Both sides of the
table:

[http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/2010/04/22/never-hire-
job...](http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/2010/04/22/never-hire-job-hoppers-
never-they-make-terrible-employees/)

[http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/2010/04/25/job-hoppers-
re...](http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/2010/04/25/job-hoppers-redux-an-
employees-perspective/)

