
How to Make Vegan Butter - socksy
http://www.veganbaking.net/recipes/fats/vegan-butters/vegan-butter
======
SwellJoe
I've been doing a lot of vegan baking lately (I'm vegetarian, with vegan
tendencies, but my girlfriend is strictly vegan). I tried vegan baking in the
distant past, and was always disappointed, but the Internet has made it really
easy to find good, proven, recipes and a lot more information about the
science and behavior of foods when prepared in various ways.

I've been pleasantly surprised by how well my coconut oil-based cookies and
biscuits come out. My current biscuit recipe
([http://foodcite.org/recipe/amazing-vegan-southern-
buttermilk...](http://foodcite.org/recipe/amazing-vegan-southern-buttermilk-
biscuits/) ) is as good as any I have ever made...and I'm from the south. I
know biscuits, and have made and eaten a lot of biscuits in my life. Cakes and
brownies are another story, thus far, and it's not the butter that's the
problem ingredient; eggs are where the problems come in.

I'm really impressed with their experimental approach. I've done the same
experiments with curdling non-dairy milks (to replace buttermilk in biscuits),
and have done several experiments blending various oils and additional
ingredients to replicate butter. Because I'm lazy I ended up simplifying back
down to very easy to prepare ingredients, because if there are too many steps
or ingredients, I end up cooking something simpler. But, in this case I could
probably make myself mix up a big batch of this for the freezer.

~~~
notatoad
>Cakes and brownies are another story, thus far

I'm surprised at this. I'm not a vegan at all, and i find most of the time
when i end up eating vegan variants of dishes that aren't normally vegan
they're pretty terrible, but i've had some truly excellent vegan chocolate
cakes and brownies. I don't know what the recipe was, but it's certainly
possible to make a really good vegan chocolate cake.

~~~
SwellJoe
Yes, my favorite chocolate cake ever was vegan (from The Green Planet in
Houston, an _incredible_ but now defunct vegan restaurant). But, I've never
been able to _make_ one that good. I'm not saying it can't be done, just that
I haven't gotten it right yet.

Brownies, on the other hand, are a nightmare to veganize, for me. It may have
to do with the kind of brownies I like, and it may just be that I've had
enough bad luck that now my baking mojo is broken for making brownies. I've
tried three batches in pretty quick succession, using quite different seeming
recipes, and they all turned out _awful_ ; and awful in roughly the same way
in all cases. Kinda like overly oily fudge, with some flour mixed in just to
make it even more gross. I'm not sure, honestly. I've not tried it again
lately, but will eventually. I love a good brownie. But, I was so disheartened
by the first several attempts, that I've been avoiding it.

And, I can't think of a really good vegan brownie that I've ever eaten, and I
know some quite good vegan cooks, and tend to frequent vegan restaurants and
bakeries while traveling.

~~~
dllthomas
I've not attempted it, but my understanding is that the secret ingredient in
vegan chocolate cake is vinegar.

~~~
SwellJoe
That wouldn't surprise me, and I do frequently add vinegar to my almond milk
when baking to make it more like a buttermilk, even if the recipe doesn't call
for it. The additional acidity when adding vinegar to a recipe that uses
baking soda or baking powder can replace some of the effect of using sour
cream (a _very_ common "secret ingredient" in non-vegan chocolate cakes),
which provides more leavening. It probably also alters the flavor in some way,
though there are so many other competing and strong flavors, and the vinegar
is such a small amount, that it probably doesn't do too much.

I don't think I've used vinegar in my chocolate cake attempts, however, so
it's probably something I'll try next time.

------
rwolf
For anyone (like me) who raised an eyebrow at the "trans fats are highly
toxic" bit, wiki helpfully mentions some recent (2013) FDA guidance on the
matter:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans_fat](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans_fat)

~~~
lambda
"Wiki" does not make sense as an abbreviation of "Wikipedia". "Wiki" is a
general term, of which "Wikipedia" is a single example.

Calling "Wikipedia" simply "wiki" is like saying "book mentions..." when
talking about what a specific book discusses.

~~~
ubernostrum
Wikipedia is the only wiki most people knowingly interact with, and shortening
it simply to "wiki" is in my experience common and causes no confusion.

~~~
bigbugbag
To me the word wiki refers either to the original wiki at c2.com[1] by Ward
Cunningham or the kind of organically grown community around a user editable
website.

Do not let the word wiki in its name and the content being provided by users
through a wiki engine fool you, wikipedia is not a wiki (for a variety of
reasons) but this is a common misconception.

Let's just say that if openstreetmap had been called wikistreetmap and used a
wiki engine, it would still be "a map of the world, created by people like you
and free to use under an open license." and not a wiki.

So yes using wiki as a shorthand to refer to wikipedia is not only confusing
but also wrong.

[1] : [http://c2.com/cgi/wiki](http://c2.com/cgi/wiki) the original wiki

-edit- meatball[2] is a wiki, consumerium[3] is a wiki everything2[4] is not a wiki[5] and everything2 not being wikipedia[6] doesn't make wikipedia a wiki.

[2]: [http://meatballwiki.org/wiki/](http://meatballwiki.org/wiki/) [3]:
[http://develop.consumerium.org/wiki/Main_Page](http://develop.consumerium.org/wiki/Main_Page)
[4]: [http://www.everything2.com/](http://www.everything2.com/) [5]:
[http://everything2.com/title/wiki](http://everything2.com/title/wiki) [6]:
[http://www.everything2.com/title/Everything2%20is%20not%20Wi...](http://www.everything2.com/title/Everything2%20is%20not%20Wikipedia)

~~~
ubernostrum
Wikipedia is estimated to be the sixth most-visited web site in the world, and
is the only site in the top that is commonly referred to by the word "wiki".

You are free to complain about or dislike that, and to want people to broaden
their horizons if they think of it as _the_ wiki or as the default thing that
"wiki" refers to, but you are not free to claim that most people, when they
say "wiki" as a shorthand for a site, actually mean some other site, or that
some other site which could be called "wiki" is more likely to be meant.

------
rpenm
In terms of sustainability, coconut oil is not necessarily better than palm
oil. It is probably worse since it has lower yield per hectare and more energy
(drying + pressing) per liter output.

------
kevb
I really like the science in his write ups, there's obviously a lot of science
in baking but so many write ups focus on story building and act as if there is
some magic behind the steps or ingredients that obfuscates their true purpose.

Mattie also has another site (foodcraftlab.com) that has even more involved
recipes, including a good read about cream cheese, I love the idea of, though
I'll likely never find the time to make:
[http://www.foodcraftlab.com/food/fermentation/vegan-
cashew-c...](http://www.foodcraftlab.com/food/fermentation/vegan-cashew-cream-
cheese) .

------
languagehacker
What the hell is this doing on Hacker News?

Saying that as someone who was vegan for five years and who is presently on a
high-fat, low-carb diet, by the way. I don't come here for stuff like this.

~~~
socksy
I posted it because it was an interesting kind of reverse engineering of a
food substance, which was done in a way that I figured HN would appreciate.

------
stellar678
It's awesome to read his analysis of and experiments with the components that
make up butter!

But, in the end his recipe is essentially just Earth Balance:
[http://earthbalancenatural.com/wp-
content/uploads/2013/06/nu...](http://earthbalancenatural.com/wp-
content/uploads/2013/06/nutr-spread-original.png)

------
beloch
Only some margarines contain trans fats and soy is not without its own health
risks.

~~~
latch
If you're referring to breast cancer, the evidence is sketchy, and both the
Canadian and American Cancer Societies conclude that it's safe (with some
studies suggesting that it might help, as well as a french-paradox type thing
going on in Japan).

There have been other cancer-related concerns, but most of the studies have
been very small and seem to conclude that there's either no risk, or that
there are actually benefits.

The dairy industry is a huge advertising and lobbying machine.

What I find particularly troubling is that people avoid soy because of non-
existent evidence. But they continue to drink alcohol which has been
thoroughly linked to many forms of cancers. It makes me believe that, in the
final analysis, people eat what they want and only pay lip service to healt
(or the environment/sustainability/animal welfare); which I'd say that things
like Atkins and paleo further confirms.

~~~
beloch
I was actually thinking of the studies that show soy products may cause
harmful reductions in testosterone in men. I wouldn't say the data is
overwhelming at present, but there is concern. The soy industry isn't exactly
a feather weight when it comes to promoting its products either.

The reason I mentioned this is because this article went to significant effort
to make margerine sound horrible for your health when the concerns about
margerine aren't any more convincing than those about soy. Additionally, the
"vegan butter" recipe is based on the same oils as are used in margerines
anyways. When it comes to health, how do the chemical reactions done in the
article compare to those performed when creating margerine? I have no idea.
Just because a chemical reaction has not been performed on an industrial scale
does not mean it produces healthier results.

The conflicts people get into about food are sometimes ridiculous in their
intensity. Butter vs margerine is almost a religious issue! One thing that is
truly ridiculous is how people can go on a pure magic-vegan-voodoo-uber-
healthy diet and wind up horribly unhealthy because they're simply eating too
much. Perhaps this vegan butter is far better for pie crusts than most
margerines, but that doesn't change the fact that pie isn't terribly healthy
regardless of what it's made of.

~~~
tjl
I'm on a vegan diet for health reasons. I can't eat meat or dairy without a
lot of pain. I also can't have alcohol, carbonated beverages, or a number of
fruits and vegetables. I arrived at the diet with the help of a GI specialist
and a nutritionist. Even on the diet, I still take a fair amount of
painkillers every day (mostly non-narcotic, but all by prescription).

I don't eat pie except on a few special occasions (e.g., birthdays and
Christmas). I do make my own bread and muffins (mixed berry) so I know what's
exactly in them. A recipe like this is good for someone like me as I'll know
what's in it.

Assuming that someone goes on a vegan diet and ends up unhealthy because of it
is a bit much. I know I'm not the healthiest, but it's because I don't get
enough exercise largely due to a number of chronic medical conditions.

~~~
pyre
> Assuming that someone goes on a vegan diet and ends up unhealthy because of
> it is a bit much.

There are a number of people that tout themselves as ex-vegans because they
went vegan, (probably) didn't eat a well-balanced enough diet, went to their
doctor (who said "LOL just eat meat silly!"), got better, and then become
staunch anti-vegans.

I think this happens because people try to just cut out non-vegan things from
their current diet, and think that their work is done.

~~~
tjl
Since I was switching diets for health reasons I luckily had the advice of a
nutritionist, who was excellent. She helped me a lot.

I recall watching a talk (I think it was a TED talk) where it was suggested
that one goes vegetarian for a day or two a week. I think the idea was to help
the environment by eating less meat (it's been a while since I watched it).

------
tessierashpool
as a vegan, I hate stuff like this. I'm vegan for my health. I see nothing but
insanity in recreating high-fat foods from different materials, so that I can
keep the obesity but get rid of the good taste.

~~~
venomsnake
Sorry to disappoint you but obesity is caused primary by overeating.

I lost 2 kg since starting baking pies myself. And I am using pate sablee,
lots of heavy cream for the custards, dozens of yolks and so on. You just need
to eat smaller sizes of the finished product. My roommate put on couple of
pounds though.

~~~
elementai
Ok, but what's causing overeating? Viewing human behaviour as a sole function
of free will is reductionist at least.

~~~
venomsnake
Wide availability of food, food that has been engineered to be addictive,
insane amounts of fast carbs consumed, overall decline in physical activity
and decline of home cooking, with recent research showing fucked up gut flora
entering the mix.

------
Pro_bity
Good article, although his use of the word "chemicals" as a negative is pretty
silly. Particularly, in this sentence "Fermentation and curdling involve
hundreds of chemical reactions that produce a multitude of complex flavor
compounds with a depth that can't be replicated by chemicals."

~~~
abeppu
Given that the paragraph you've quoted from is followed with a description of
how acids denature proteins, I think the author probably understands that all
the other stuff he's working with are "chemicals" too.

However, I think this works as a reasonable shorthand for non-specific
synthetic food additives in this context. Laypeople like myself understand
that butter substitutes include artificial flavors to attempt to recreate some
of the flavor of butter, but they fall short. The author can favorably compare
his curdling approach to the fake butter flavors of those familiar
commercially available products without stopping to specify them, because it
doesn't matter which specific chemical additives he's comparing to. If he
instead said " ... a depth of flavor that can't be replicated by adding
acetoin or diacetyl" (which wikipedia says are the common fake butter
additives) what would that really add for his readers?

~~~
ubernostrum
Well, obviously chemicals can't replicate the chemicals produced by the
chemical reactions among the chemicals in butter. I don't see what's so hard
to understand about it.

------
dschiptsov
I am stupid, of course, but what is the point in switching from dairy fat
sources for a mammal species who breastfeed their offsprings?

I, probably, know the answer - "look, I am sophisticated vegan hipster!"

Another point is, of course, evolutionary biology - what were our traditional
sources of nourishment? For a hunting-gathering tribes? Hunting and
domestication of animals were, certainly, adaptations, which allowed a tribe
to survive and rise more healthy children in harsh and quickly changing
conditions.

This is why Tibetans or Mongolians are still using dairy butter as the main
source of nourishment. We, probably, should enlighten them about veganism to
eliminate their deep ignorance about using dairy butter.

~~~
lambda
Most people I know who are vegan are so for ethical reasons.

I may not share their ethical objections, but to simply dismiss them as
"sophisticated vegan hipster" is rather rude.

~~~
dschiptsov
Why? Moral vegetarians is a quite different topic, and there is an answer for
this too. Current rates of population growth are unsustainable without animal
food sources. So, the price would be lives of children and weak adults of
poorest communities.

~~~
lambda
Most people I know who are moral vegetarians do not demand that the rest of
the world be as well. They simply object to eating the flesh of animals
themselves, or (for the vegans) eating any products derived from animals which
did not consent.

You do also realize that another solution for unsustainable levels of
population growth is to curb population growth, by better access to and
encouragement to use birth control, right?

~~~
dschiptsov
These topics are subtle and the current fashions among some social classes in
some regions of the world cannot be considered as something more than mere
fashions.

For example, that "obvious and easily observable health benefits of being
vegan" are related to the avoidance of processed foods and heavily unbalanced
diet, rather than avoidance of "animal flesh" or dairy products themselves.
This is just the confirmation bias and similar factors at play.

Those, who have studied human physiology, not just cellular metabolism, which
is also important, could tell that the problem is too complex to be dealt with
by silly slogans like "avoid red meat". There are many subtle ratios involved,
not just an ability of a particular enzymes to convert a particular molecular
structure into molecules involved in the metabolism and support of the
homeostasis, but the ratios among these processes. The balance is what is
important. In other words, "substituting the protein sources", is not that
simple as it seems.

There is no scientifically proven reasons to avoid dairy products, except for
individual cases of lactose intolerance, while there is a consensus that the
food industry is the cause of the problem to which veganism seemed to be a
solution.

Tribal eating habits is a quite interesting topic, btw.

As for birth control, this is quite another topic, which, perhaps, cannot be
discussed in this context. For some members of so-called "urban-middle-class"
in some region of the world the policies of forced birth control are
acceptable, while in other societies there are quite different reasons about
how many children should a family have and why. And, of course, it is not for
some "vegans" to decide what other people in other regions of the world should
do.

