
Lagos megachurches building their own cities - Tomte
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/sep/11/eat-pray-live-lagos-nigeria-megachurches-redemption-camp
======
smithmayowa
Nigerian here, and yes this is truly happening in my country not just in Lagos
state but all around with Ogun state pretty much taking the lead for the
position of most mega churches in Nigeria. It is very nauseating that with all
the poverty in my country snake oil prophets; (which is what they majorly are)
would rather build mega churches/houses; (as their houses are mostly built
with the churches) and schools with outrageous tuition fees from the proceeds
of offering and tithes from those same gullible congregants who can't then
afford to attend such schools or build such mega churches/houses for
themselves.

~~~
aaron-lebo
In the Bible Belt it's hard not to run across snake oil salesman, but an
article for a faith and development class stressed how important them and
prosperity gospel might actually be for the global south. If you come from
nothing and have nothing and it's a massive generational climb to win any kind
of power, a fervent if even delusional belief that against all odds god is
going to grant you health and riches can actually be an incredible motivator.
It leads to effective projects that actually empower the community like the
above.

Not sure how to feel about it. Joseph Smith for example was a complete
charlatan and liar, but some of the most honest and hardworking people in tech
and elsewere you will ever meet are Mormons. There's a lot of people on HN who
have wrong beliefs about tech but are incredibly productive in spite of (or
because of it), so it's hard to judge people too much if it works for them.

~~~
theoh
From outside the US, the glaring problem with "prosperity gospel" thinking
seems to be that the unfortunate (the "losers") are blamed for their
misfortune. It seems like a case of selfish individualism being supported by
religious doctrine.

The fix for this is supposedly a certain dose of collectivist thinking, even
just recognition of notions like "ubuntu".

~~~
soundwave106
Oddly enough, I personally think "prosperity gospel" is almost the antithesis
of Christian doctrine as given by the scriptures. I know some Christian
articles even go so far to describe it as "heretical".

Others don't go quite that far, but they let their opinion on the philosophy
be known pretty clearly. (Take this answer from Billy Graham, who represents
sort of the "old school" of American televangelism in many ways:
[https://billygraham.org/answer/does-god-really-want-
everyone...](https://billygraham.org/answer/does-god-really-want-everyone-to-
be-rich/))

~~~
jimbokun
"In fact, the only disciple who really cared about money was Judas, whose
greed and unbelief caused him to betray Jesus for 30 pieces of silver."

Going to file that one away next time I hear someone advocating a prosperity
gospel.

------
cs702
This presents an interesting parallel with many pre-modern and certain modern
human societies, in which political and religious power is concentrated in the
hands of divinized kings and/or religious bureaucracies.

I can't help but wonder if this kind of religious city is the "most workable"
form of political organization in the absence of a modern functioning nation-
state.

Are the any anthropologists here who can shed light on this?

~~~
T-A
Closer in time, you have the outsized role still played by the Catholic Church
in countries like Italy and Spain, where it runs not just churches and
monasteries but social housing, preschools, and savings & loans associations.

Turning to the really bizarre, we have "The Transhumanist Wager", a supposedly
best-selling recent rehash of "Atlas Shrugged" (complete with "A is A")
featuring as the main villain a religious movement which builds churches with
attached housing where the faithful can live at low or no cost. Not
recommended, unless you are meta enough to enjoy atrociously bad writing for
the giggles.

~~~
pjc50
Or Ireland.

People ask "what is wrong with the Church running social institutions", and
the answer is the lack of proper accountability. In the worst case you end up
with a mass grave of babies.

[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/03/mass-grave-
of-...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/03/mass-grave-of-babies-
and-children-found-at-tuam-orphanage-in-ireland)

~~~
humanrebar
> ...the lack of proper accountability

The complaint in the linked article is about burial practices. That's a
psychological, cultural, or theological complaint, right?

Also, even if the burial practices were unconscionable, why write off all
religious institutions with those kinds of anecdotes and ignore the mountains
of atrocities committed by state-run institutions?

~~~
virtuabhi
Are you aware of this case -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar)
, [http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-
ireland-20321741](http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-20321741) ?

"Savita, pregnant at 17 weeks with her first baby, went to the hospital with
her husband Praveen on 21 October 2012 complaining about back pain. Her water
broke early on the morning of 22 October and Savita asked if anything could be
done to save the baby. She was told that the miscarriage was inevitable. On 23
October, having understood the baby would not survive, she asked for a
termination, and was told it was not legally possible in Ireland while there
is a foetal heartbeat. Midwife manager Ann Maria Burke attempted to calm an
upset Savita and explained that the termination cannot be carried out because
Ireland is "a Catholic country", a statement she later said was not meant in a
hurtful way and a statement that she was sorry for making if it sounded bad
afterward. In preparation for a termination on 24 October, Savita delivered a
stillborn girl. At 1:09am, on Sunday 28 October, Savita
died.[3][4][5][6][7][8]"

~~~
humanrebar
> Are you aware of this case...

How is it relevant? It was in a university hospital in a country with a
secular government that legally allows terminating pregnancies to save the
life of the mother. There wasn't a Church-run social institution unless I
missed something.

------
vezycash
A simple Google search shows the redeemed camp isn't located in Lagos but Ogun
State.

Unlike the impression you get from the article, necessity is the master
planner behind the redeemed camp.

Imagine schools needed a routine get together in a single location. Small
charter schools will be served by small headquarters.

Virtually every church has yearly get togethers - conventions.

However, the redeemed church has the largest number of branches in the
country. Hence...

Their current location was bought decades ago for dirt cheap because of its
remote location and a den of robbers and kidnappers (I'm self-censoring here).

It looks like the buildings sprang up effortlessly but the author of the
article has no idea the place was once filled with thousands of canopies.

The article's a fluff piece.

Replace the article with a story about the size of Amazon, Facebook or Google
without the historical context and you'll get a similar article.

~~~
qqg3
> A simple Google search shows the redeemed camp isn't located in Lagos but
> Ogun State.

"The Redeemed Christian Church of God’s international headquarters in Ogun
state has been transformed from a mere megachurch to an entire neighbourhood"

It says as much right there in the article.

------
brudgers
The tone of the article is formulaic. [1] In the US, a church built its own
state. In downtown Clearwater, Florida (today is probably not a good time to
visit) a church has come to dominate the urban fabric of an existing city in
more recent times. The states of Maryland, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, and
Rhode Island were founded as religious communities. San Francisco, San Deigo,
San Jose, etc. in California. San Antonio in Texas. St. Louis in Missouri. The
association between religious communities and city founding is quite common.

[1]: [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/global-
opinions/wp/2017/...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/global-
opinions/wp/2017/08/16/what-if-western-media-covered-americas-white-tribalism-
the-same-way-it-covers-other-nations/?utm_term=.74fcc79ecc0b)

~~~
jimktrains2
I'm not sure where you're getting your history of Pennsylvania from, but
that's not correct.

> Penn established a government with two innovations that were much copied in
> the New World: the county commission and freedom of religious conviction.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania#History](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania#History)

There have been a couple religious-based communities in PA, notably the
Quakers, but PA was not founded as a religious state.

~~~
brudgers
As I read the First section of the _Pennsylvania Charter of Privileges_ , I
see a colony founded on religious belief. In part my reading is based in the
historical context of Quakers having been persecuted by the English State for
the expression of their religious beliefs. That it is possible to see Penn's
religious views as more consistent with an outline of contemporary liberal
democracy does not, for me, make the document any less a codification of
Quaker religious views.

[http://www.ushistory.org/documents/charter.htm](http://www.ushistory.org/documents/charter.htm)

------
gytdev
You can see the map of this phenomenon on google maps:
[https://goo.gl/rLP3Cn](https://goo.gl/rLP3Cn)

------
anentropic
Oh it's Nigeria, sounded like something that would happen in USA

~~~
justherefortart
[https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/jan/30/from-book-
to-...](https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/jan/30/from-book-to-boom-how-
the-mormons-plan-a-city-for-500000-in-florida)

------
dc1011
"A 25-megawatt power plant with gas piped in from the Nigerian capital serves
the 5,000 private homes on site, 500 of them built by the church’s
construction company."

"Outside the Holy Ghost convention, Redemption Camp has the peaceful
surroundings and conveniences of a retirement village – in large part because
the power plant, fed by its own gas pipeline from Lagos, removes the need for
the constant thrum of diesel generators."

Come on, theguardian, get the capital city right. lazy journalist!!!

------
peterwwillis
With growing uncertainty and economic inequality, it's not hard to harness the
will of the people for your own ends. If the gap gets bigger over the next few
decades it'll be fun to see if we get a return to religious-military
complexes. Or perhaps, when Amazon and Wal-Mart control all means of food
production and distribution, military-agricultural complexes?

------
jlebrech
I like this one big roof concept, and let people build inside of that. maybe
something that would otherwise be temporary.

~~~
simias
Your comment reminded me of Midgar in Final Fantasy VII. It wasn't a
particularly nice place to live for the dwellers underneath if memory serves.

That being said in this case I don't think the people build underneath the big
roof, it's "just" a big hall for the ceremonies. I assume the city is built
around it.

~~~
jlebrech
I think some countries would benefit from large communal living areas. Very
basic but it would be impossible to live on the street as everyone has a "back
to square one" place to go.

------
oneplane
Yikes, this feels so cult-y and creepy. I suppose the comments on 'snake oil
prophets' and 'prosperity theology' bring that out in words better.

------
prestonpesek
Wow what a fantastic tax evasion scheme, especially for real estate
developers!

------
Grue3
New Apple headquarters, anyone?

------
hdlothia
Worked for Salt Lake City and Utah.

------
FussyZeus
> “Ha-lleluuuu-jah,” booms the distinctive voice of Pastor Enoch Adeboye, also
> known as the general overseer.

Ooooooh boy, this is gonna be a fun read isn't it.

Am I the only one who thinks it's fucking tragic that in so many parts of the
world, the safest place to live is under the thumb of some religious leader
who seems to be deliberately blurring the line between religion and cult, or
under some insane warlord who only keeps you safe because you and everyone
else are fucking terrified of them?

~~~
humanrebar
I didn't see any theological details in the article. What is "blurring the
line between religion and cult"? Call-and-response group communication (1)?
I've considered that an interesting anthropolicial phenomenon, but nothing to
eschew. Am I missing something?

(1)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_and_response](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_and_response)

~~~
FussyZeus
I was moreso referring to his alternate title, General Overseer which
legitimately sounds like something out of an Orwell novel.

I have no beef with religion in general, other than the fact that many
religious leaders seem to have picked that job because they weren't qualified
to do a single other thing, but hey, to each their own.

~~~
humanrebar
"Overseer" is an alternate translation of "elder" or "bishop" (from the Greek:
episkopos), which are recognized offices in most Western Christian churches.
"Daddy Go" also sounds strange to my ears, but I'm not Nigerian.

~~~
sah2ed
The correct parsing should be "Daddy G.O." \-- G.O. being the abbreviation of
General Overseer.

~~~
humanrebar
Ah! That sounds a bit better. I could see children calling their grandfather
or older family friend that.

~~~
vidarh
Daddy/mummy/auntie/uncle/cousin/sister/brother pretty much indicate
age/seniority/importance/familiarity in Nigeria without necessarily saying
much about actual blood relation.

So the use of "daddy" in itself is just cultural and nothing specifically to
do with the church.

------
Geekette
It is sad when private organizations take on governmental tasks like
infrastructural development because federal and state governance is lacking.
It is even more alarming when religious bodies do it and to such a mega scale
because their agendas and spheres of influence far exceed that of a business.

If wishes were horses, beggars would ride and religion would be severely
rationed locally and definitely banned from import in places like Nigeria (and
everywhere else, ideally; the post cited has parallels in several places
including N. America). People should be free to be choose their spiritual
paths (or not at all) but there's such a thing as too much religion.

~~~
narrator
For all their faults, religious institutions do tend to care sincerely for the
poor and there are a lot of them in Nigeria.

~~~
damnfine
To some. There are also quite a few traveling americian yuppies that trade aid
for 'souls', for the sole purpose of bragging about it back home. Its an
unfortunate mix.

