

Ask HN: How do you know when you are an expert? - d0m

I know that I'm almost an expert in something when, given a task, I only see the annoying small details.<p>So, I'm curious about <i>how you know</i> you became or are an expert in something.
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oscardelben
Four stages of competence[1]:

* Unconscious Incompetence: The individual neither understands nor knows how to do something, nor recognizes the deficit, nor has a desire to address it.

* Conscious Incompetence: Though the individual does not understand or know how to do something, he or she does recognize the deficit, without yet addressing it.

* Conscious Competence: The individual understands or knows how to do something. However, demonstrating the skill or knowledge requires a great deal of consciousness or concentration.

* Unconscious Competence: The individual has had so much practice with a skill that it becomes "second nature" and can be performed easily (often without concentrating too deeply). He or she may or may not be able teach it to others, depending upon how and when it was learned.

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_competence>

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buro9
The weird thing about unconscious competence, is that when things do become so
intuitive and second nature I've personally started to find that I feel as if
I _don't_ know something.

If asked... I feel I can't answer. If interviewed I'll probably fail. Yet I
also find that when put in front of a problem the solution just presents
itself.

What's weird about this is that in feeling I know so little about things that
I've 15 years experience in, I feel like I need to learn. So I expose myself
to all opportunities to learn only to find that all tell me what I feel is
evident and obvious.

This is close to what I take to be the meaning of "forgotten more than I've
ever learned".

Whether this makes me an expert is debatable, I'd say no. I'd say that there
was a re-learning stage after the last stage in which you acquire the means to
understand deeply and to be able to communicate and pass on those skills. I'd
say that an expert is someone who can pass on their skills, someone who can
mentor others.

(I also find it uncomfortable writing a post implying I know anything)

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berntb
I have an inverted experience...

I have gone back to unconscious _in_ competence in some subjects I haven't
touched for a decade, that I used to know better than most anyone I worked
with.

It is embarrassing sometimes. :-)

I am still happy that I reinvented myself as a script programmer instead of a
system programmer; what is fun for me is sitting down and generating lots of
functionality in a short time. I can go to work with a smile and low risk of
burnout.

On the subject of expert or not: I guess that locally I am considered an
expert on what I do, but I don't see me as one because I know how the _real_
experts are.

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GVRV
I'm not an expert at anything but I do follow my University's motto 'Ancora
Imparo' (I'm learning). I personally think it's difficult for you to know when
you're an expert at anything but other people will start labeling you as an
expert. They'll ask for your opinions, help, etc and wouldn't mind paying for
it. Just do whatever interests you. Share what you've learned. But always know
you're just a student of the field, let other worry about how they perceive
you.

How did PG become an expert at starting up? He did it himself. He wrote essays
about it to share what he learnt. I'm sure he was never trying to be an
expert. Even in his essays now, he never makes "expert claims". It's the
people who found the advice helpful that labelled him so.

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ThomPete
You know you are an expert when you start saying "it depends" to questions you
are asked.

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sesqu
I must have been born an expert, then. It's taken a lot of learning for me to
answer with "try this", rather than "tell me more about your problem and the
parameters of an acceptable solution".

Incidentally, I'm currently doing some research on a problem and it pains me
that I have to constantly come up with the justifications to the solutions I
find proposed. There's a lot of cookbook math around.

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alanh
I think being able to disagree with a point most other experts in the field
agree upon, with reason, while being able to explain the more common POV, is
sufficient but not necessary evidence of expertise.

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yason
I suppose you don't.

By the time you know a shitload in details and depth of some subject, you also
know another shitload of related things that you know you do _not_ know yet,
so you still keep considering yourself a half-newbie. And because you're
interested in things you don't know, you rarely talk about the subject with
people who know less than you, which distorts your field of vision.

Indirectly, perhaps you could consider it a sign of an "expert" to have been
so alienated from what is generally considered normal that people label you as
a geek.

But then again, you can never declare yourself an expert or you're just
selling to be something you aren't.

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known
"I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I _do_ and I _understand._ " --
Confucius

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olalonde
I would say it could be when you have to search _really hard_ to find an
article/book/course/conference/etc. in your area of expertise that actually
teaches you something. It is when the only way to perfect your skills is by
yourself, by pushing the limits on your own without relying on others. It is
when the only way to get better is not to buy the book but to write it. Anyone
agrees?

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ajdecon
"Expert" is a tricky word, and I only know how to measure this in relative
terms. For a given area, I know I have a high degree of expertise when
colleagues who are working in similar areas begin to regularly ask for my
help. That doesn't necessarily say anything about my abilities relative to a
different population: I know a hell of a lot about image analysis relative to
the other engineers in my group, but I know there are plenty of people who can
kick my ass in this.

I suppose I might also measure this based on my own need for assistance, i.e.
I am an "expert" when I only rarely need to turn to colleagues or the
literature for help. But this isn't a very functional definition for me, as I
strongly prefer to be working at the edge of my knowledge; thus I am almost
always in conversation with others who know more than me.

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econner
This seems relevant: <http://norvig.com/21-days.html> "Teach Yourself
Programming in Ten Years"

"Researchers (Bloom (1985), Bryan & Harter (1899), Hayes (1989), Simmon &
Chase (1973)) have shown it takes about ten years to develop expertise in any
of a wide variety of areas, including chess playing, music composition,
telegraph operation, painting, piano playing, swimming, tennis, and research
in neuropsychology and topology. The key is deliberative practice: not just
doing it again and again, but challenging yourself with a task that is just
beyond your current ability, trying it, analyzing your performance while and
after doing it, and correcting any mistakes. Then repeat. And repeat again."

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Locke1689
According to my experience: never. I'm always surprised when I know something
other people don't, but I always seem to know ~10x more every passing year
than I did before. Going through theoretical CS papers always reminds me how
much I have to learn.

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hkarthik
Most experienced technologists know the real danger in ever claiming to be an
expert in anything.

Rarely will two jobs be so similar that the expertise gained from a previous
job can guarantee the same level of output in the new job. While its not
impossible, its so rare that its not worth the risk in making the claim that
you are an expert.

In general, those that ever claim to be experts are using the word to justify
a high payrate or lock in an opportunity.

So as business owner, be wary of anyone claiming to be an expert. And as a
technologist, be wary of ever claiming to be an expert and risk overselling
yourself.

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instakill
You will never really be able to tell that you're an expert, if you are an
expert. One of the reasons for this is because of the Dunning-Kruger effect in
cognitive psychology whereby "the highly skilled underrate their abilities,
suffering from illusory inferiority".
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect>)

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betterlabs
Ah, I think it would be a mistake for anyone to assume they are an expert
unless they are in a field that has nothing left to be discovered (rare!). If
you are in tech, then I think "Ancora Imparo" (I'm learning) - as referenced
in an earlier comment - is the way to go. If you have anything to do with
startups, then I think you should be ready for your knowledge and expertise to
be disrupted everyday.

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elliottkember
I think it's relative. Anybody who claims to be an expert is selling you
something.

It's not a black and white thing; there are varying levels of expertise. The
more people there are that think you're an expert, the more of an expert you
are.

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sesqu
I don't think I've ever been an expert in anything where being an expert is
somehow worthwhile.

That said, I'd say you're an expert when you know what the bad parts are, why
they're wrong, and why they're there anyway.

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invertedlambda
You'll know you're an expert when you don't care about being labeled as such.
You know your stuff really well, so well that it's a matter of intuition. If
you care about being an expert, you're not one.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
>You know your stuff really well, so well that it's a matter of intuition.

So experts are people that don't think about what they're doing?

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invertedlambda
Correct, but maybe not in the sense that you are implying.

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yannis
When people in your field cannot answer your questions, but you can.

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CyberFonic
An expert is someone who is sought out by others for their skill and paid well
for it.

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arethuza
No - that's someone who _markets_ themselves to be an expert. Of course, they
might be an expert but I haven't noticed much correlation between claiming
expertise (or being paid huge amounts of money) and actual expertise.

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psyklic
When respected people in the field value your opinion and perceive you as
their peer.

~~~
krainboltgreene
Can this really be true and how much respect is required? Consider Zed Shaw,
who is quite clearly a very competent hacker.

A lot of people _refuse_ to respect or give value to his opinion, much less
see him as a peer.

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harscoat
when you know you'll never pretend becoming one

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kasharoo
When my karma got to 10, I knew I was an HN expert.

