
Uncleftish Beholding: English minus the non-Germanic words (1998) - gkya
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.language.artificial/ZL4e3fD7eW0/_7p8bKwLJWkJ
======
raldi
The reason it seems funny to see the word "stuff" in a scientific essay is
that it's very much _not_ a French-derived word. French-speaking people ruled
England for a while starting in the year 1066, and quite quickly in that
region the use of French-derived English words became seen as a sign of high
class. That sort of thing, once strongly established, becomes self-
perpetuating.

That's why, even today, a police officer might say in court, "I observed the
individual in the vicinity of the canine" whereas among family the officer
might be much more likely to say, "I saw the man near the dog."

The first sentence is full of French. The second, Anglo-Saxon.

It's the same reason we eat beef and pork, but raise cows and pigs. The people
eating the meat were upper class and thus used the French-derived words; the
people taking care of the animals used Anglo-Saxon.

~~~
ErsatzVerkehr
The Google etymology thing (I didn't even know it existed - just search for
"stuff etymology" and you get a nice little graph) tells me that the word
"stuff" came to English from Greek ( _stuphein_ ) via Old French ( _estoffe_
). So maybe it is not correct to say it's not a French-derived word?

But it's also present in German- _stoff_ means something like "material".
Amusingly, there's a wikipedia article titled "List of stoffs". The elements
have names like _Wasserstoff_ = water stuff = hydrogen. In the attached essay
(which claims to be written without German derivatives), it seems strange to
prefer "waterstuff" to the very Greek "hydrogen"... ?

~~~
arethuza
For some reason this discussion sent me off to try and find the origin of
"loons" and "quines" \- the terms for "boys" and "girls" in the dialect of
Scots English I am familiar with.

"Quine" seems to be based on "quean" but "loon" seems a mystery!

NB Referring to someone as a "loonie" is not derogatory - but just means they
are a young boy :-)

~~~
smcl
"Loon" and "Quine" aren't even Scots English, I suspect you'd get funny looks
if you used either in Edinburgh or Glasgow. Each are very much "Doric" (the
dialect of Aberdeen\shire) words.

edit: I recognise your name from another post and remember that you're from
Scotland so you probaby know this already :)

------
gilgoomesh
While English is a Germanic language, 41% of English words (ranked by
frequency) come from French, making French the largest source of words in
English, not German (which comes in at about 35%).

Of course, removing all non-French words would be worse since English
pronouns, prepositions and conjunctions are mostly German derived. According
to Wikipedia, 97% of the top 100 words in English are German derived. The loss
of German would leave little to "glue" a sentence together.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language#Word_origins](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language#Word_origins)

~~~
judk
How much is 97% of 100, approximately?

~~~
StavrosK
About 95.

~~~
sliverstorm
That's about 97% accurate!

------
luxpir
Last September I spent a little time going through Beowulf and pulling out
words we no longer use but are still active in modern Swedish. I got to 100
very quickly. I can't speak so much for German, having only a basic grasp, but
to me it looks like Scandinavian languages are closer to Old English now than
Modern German. That might give a picture of how English would otherwise look
without a Norman conquest (or if the Normans had retained their Norse
language).[0]

For info, if you hadn't heard yet, Tolkien's Beowulf translation is due out on
the 22nd of May. Scholars say it is likely to just be his working translation
and teaching notes, unlikely to rival Heaney's efforts. I think everyone
interested will want to see it though. Myself included. [1]

[0] [http://lukespear.co.uk/2013/09/old-english-vs-modern-
swedish...](http://lukespear.co.uk/2013/09/old-english-vs-modern-swedish-via-
beowulf-and-heaney/)

[1] [http://www.tolkienbeowulf.com/](http://www.tolkienbeowulf.com/)

~~~
pessimizer
>That might give a picture of how English would otherwise look without a
Norman conquest

Wouldn't that be Icelandic, or Faroese?

~~~
luxpir
Sure, but perhaps the development of the Scandinavian languages would be
closer to the most likely outcome (speculation), with their general European
influences, rather than the wider, and better preserved Nordic variants.

There's a brief comparison of Old Norse and Old English in the blog post
mentioned, if interested. They were very similar, almost mutually
intelligible, and so only major outside influences would have caused their
divergence (as has happened). Without those influences, though, who knows,
maybe Icelanders and the Germanic-British could still converse in their own
tongues.

------
sologoub
It's pretty amazing how either conquests or preferences of the aristocracy
shaped languages. Being a fluent Russian speaker, I had a chance to interact
with a person from Serbia without a translator, who did not speak Russian.

The experience was eye opening in how languages evolved. Though the two
started from a common ancestor language, Russian had become extremely
"polluted" (using the term loosely) with foreign words for the most basic
things. For example the word for Army is now derived from Army, whereas
Serbian is using the word "wojsko" (not sure of actual spelling,
transliterating), which is very close to what I would consider old Russian or
proto-Slavic.

~~~
mseebach
A verse from a danish satirical poem referring to the 17th and 18th century
that has since become a sort of proverb:

    
    
        Every learned man
        Only latin wrote
        To the ladies French, German to his dog
        and Danish to his servant he spoke.
    

(The original, quite more poetic than my translation: [http://www.nomos-
dk.dk/skraep/1807_1848/wilster.html](http://www.nomos-
dk.dk/skraep/1807_1848/wilster.html))

~~~
vidarh
It is a variation of a quote originally misattributed to Charles V:

[http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Charles_V,_Holy_Roman_Emperor](http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Charles_V,_Holy_Roman_Emperor)

------
bladedtoys
I wonder why 5th century invaders (Anglo-Saxons) are considered native while
11th century invaders (Normans) are not.

Nor for that mater are 1st century invaders (Romans)

Indeed, if Normans are considered an intrusion into a formerly pure Britain,
one would think that the Doomsday book would be the considered the beginning
of illegitimacy rather than the other way around.

~~~
rjknight
Depends on who you ask. I doubt that the Scots or the Welsh or even the
Cornish would consider the Anglo-Saxons to be the 'natives'. Fortunately
hardly anyone in Britain actually thinks in terms of racial or ethnic purity.

There definitely _is_ a sense in which French and Latinate words are
considered more upper-class, clever, fancy or polite - my favourite example is
how referring to someone as 'fat' is considered rude whereas 'obese' is not,
with the only difference being that one word is Germanic and the other
Latinate.

~~~
junto
Spot on. Only the BNP and UKIP are fascinated by ethnic purity and luckily
they have a limited number of uneducated bigoted followers.

There was an interesting DNA study that I read on the BBC website some time
ago about the Welsh (Celts of Breten) being 'true Britons' [1]

The Celts of Breten are the usually named as the true 'indigenous' Britons
[2], but you wouldn't be able to find a 'pure' one if you tried. But the
origins of the Celts are also suspected to be of mainland European descent as
well. [3][4][5]

The real true Britons, who more than likely crossed the land bridge during the
last ice age left no trace of themselves [6].

After the Celts the Saxons, Jutes, Angles, Danes, Romans and Normans were all
additions to the melting pot. More recently, immigration after the WWII of
workers from ex-Empire countries (now nearly all Commonwealth) have added to
that vibrant mix.

1000 years later and our DNA is a good healthy mix. I think that was nature's
design in the first place right?

[1]
[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/wales/2076470.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/wales/2076470.stm)

[2]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Griffin#Policies_and_views](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Griffin#Policies_and_views)

[3]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britons_(Celtic_people)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britons_\(Celtic_people\))

[4]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts#Origins](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts#Origins)

[5]
[http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/british_prehistory/iron...](http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/british_prehistory/iron_01.shtml)

[6]
[http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/british_prehistory/peop...](http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/british_prehistory/peoples_01.shtml#two)

~~~
vidarh
One of our neighbours supports the BNP. Given that both my ex and I are
immigrants, and she is black, this has given rise to some amusing
conversations now and again.

When the subject of repatriation came up (for people not familiar with British
politics, the BNP wants to repatriate anyone that's not of white-British
descent), my ex immediately asked "so you will go back to Germany and give
England back to the Welsh?" (aiming to make a point rather than accuracy)

But somehow, of course, they wanted to draw the timeline on how long your
family needed to have been in Britain just far enough back to ensure there'd
be no brown-skinned people.

(My impression is that they're not really all that racist when actually
pressed for details; they've just been talked into believing in some
mysterious group of "others" that steal their jobs and take their women, but
somehow whoever they get to know cease to be part of this "others", regardless
of race - they actually have quite a few friends that are both immigrants and
black, asian etc.)

~~~
junto
> somehow whoever they get to know cease to be part of this "others",
> regardless of race

I think you are spot on here. There is this notion that "other" people are
causing Britain's problems (this applies in any other country). It gives them
someone to blame.

In fact politicians are happy to seed these kinds of blame shifting, because
more than often the country is screwed because of their policies. Furthermore,
the country is screwed because as a collective, we've let our country and the
system fester and rot.

Hence, we blame others rather than looking inwardly. On a more micro level we
can see this kind of blame culture in our development teams, or even with
ourselves when we suffer poor health.

We need to care for our system together. One of the reasons I dislike politics
is that it is divisive and blame focused.

------
gkya
I've been so happy to submit this! I read all the comments and learned a lot
of stuff. Thanks to all commentators thus.

A very similar situation can be observed in Turkish: Turks went to Europe and
Middle East in 4th century, the ones that went to Europe eventually died, and
the ones that went to Middle East and formed empires, including the rather
long lived and glorious Ottoman Empire. While they were busy becoming more
Muslim and more Arabic, learning _fancy_ Arabic and Persian words, borrowing
their alphabet and elevating this new Ottoman language to be the language of
the palace, and the language of art, whereas the public spoke their own
languages (lots of ethnicities were within the umbrella of Ottomans);
Renaissance and The French Revolution happened, which eventually got Ottomans
to love and behold Europe, mainly France, and borrow their words and
lifestyle. In 19th century, Ottoman language was such a travesty, the first
lessons of an under-graduate History course in Turkey now teaches the
language, albeit Turkey directly descended from Ottomans not even a century
ago. Together with the Kemalist revolution did start a movement of linguistic
purism, along which the Turkish language was greatly stripped from what made
it Ottoman, and the result was an easy-to-learn, simple and consistent
language.

Still, though, it'd bear the same effect with “Uncleftish Beholding” to the
average Turkishman, a text where only Turkic-rooted words were used, as still
there are lots of words in the language that come from Arabic, French, English
and Latin. Also, it'd be a bother for the average Turkishman to communicate
with a Middle-Asian Turk of modern times, language of whom is closer to pre-
Islam Turkic languages.

It is fun to play games with language, watch it grow and find out about how it
came to be the language it is today.

------
louisdefunes
Some errors:

"to give rise to the rest": "rest" is latin

"ordinary waterstuff": "ordinary" is latin too.

~~~
gphilip
"der Rest" is German, and so is "ordinär".

~~~
vidarh
But "ordinär" in modern German comes from French "ordinaire", which comes from
Latin.

~~~
schoen
And Kluge agrees with my intuition that modern German "Rest" also comes from
Latin (restare, 'to remain').

------
jblazevic
This was thoroughly entertaining, recognizing each word's meaning is like
solving a small puzzle. Like recognizing English words written in katakana.
Some words were taken directly from German, like waterstuff (== Wasserstoff),
sourstuff (== Sauerstoff). Bernstone for amber/ēlektron is my favorite.

------
oska
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_purism_in_English](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_purism_in_English)

------
gwern
There's a whole wiki devoted to this idea: anglish.wikia.com

A good example of it related to OP is
[http://anglish.wikia.com/wiki/Roomlore](http://anglish.wikia.com/wiki/Roomlore)

------
rosser
I'm reminded of the first time I read novels like _A Clockwork Orange_ , or
Greg Bear's _Queen of Angels_ , where the fictional world's slang is used, but
not explained.

~~~
xxxmadraxxx
The youth slang in Clockwork Orange is derived from Russian. I always assumed
that, the book having been written during the Cold War, this was the obvious
'alternative vision' to our own world were American cultural influence
predominates amongst the young.

------
cgio
As a Greek, I always admired Zolota's speeches, which are the exercise in
reverse.

Speeches Two of his speeches in English are considered to be historic and
notable because they contained mainly terms of Greek origin. Here are the
texts:

1957 I always wished to address this Assembly in Greek, but realized that it
would have been indeed "Greek" to all present in this room. I found out,
however, that I could make my address in Greek which would still be English to
everybody. With your permission, Mr. Chairman, l shall do it now, using with
the exception of articles and prepositions, only Greek words.

Kyrie, I eulogize the archons of the Panethnic Numismatic Thesaurus and the
Ecumenical Trapeza for the orthodoxy of their axioms, methods and policies,
although there is an episode of cacophony of the Trapeza with Hellas. With
enthusiasm we dialogue and synagonize at the synods of our didymous
organizations in which polymorphous economic ideas and dogmas are analyzed and
synthesized. Our critical problems such as the numismatic plethora generate
some agony and melancholy. This phenomenon is characteristic of our epoch.
But, to my thesis, we have the dynamism to program therapeutic practices as a
prophylaxis from chaos and catastrophe. In parallel, a Panethnic
unhypocritical economic synergy and harmonization in a democratic climate is
basic. I apologize for my eccentric monologue. I emphasize my euharistia to
you, Kyrie to the eugenic and generous American Ethnos and to the organizers
and protagonists of his Amphictyony and the gastronomic symposia.

1959[edit] Kyrie, it is Zeus' anathema on our epoch for the dynamism of our
economies and the heresy of our economic methods and policies that we should
agonize the Scylla of numismatic plethora and the Charybdis of economic
anaemia. It is not my idiosyncrasy to be ironic or sarcastic, but my diagnosis
would be that politicians are rather cryptoplethorists. Although they
emphatically stigmatize numismatic plethora, they energize it through their
tactics and practices. Our policies have to be based more on economic and less
on political criteria. Our gnomon has to be a metron between political,
strategic and philanthropic scopes. Political magic has always been anti-
economic. In an epoch characterized by monopolies, oligopolies, monopsonies,
monopolistic antagonism and polymorphous inelasticities, our policies have to
be more orthological. But this should not be metamorphosed into
plethorophobia, which is endemic among academic economists. Numismatic
symmetry should not hyper-antagonize economic acme. A greater harmonization
between the practices of the economic and numismatic archons is basic.
Parallel to this, we have to synchronize and harmonize more and more our
economic and numismatic policies panethnically. These scopes are more
practicable now, when the prognostics of the political and economic barometer
are halcyonic. The history of our didymus organizations in this sphere has
been didactic and their gnostic practices will always be a tonic to the
polyonymous and idiomorphous ethnical economies. The genesis of the programmed
organization will dynamize these policies. Therefore, I sympathize, although
not without criticism on one or two themes, with the apostles and the
hierarchy of our organs in their zeal to program orthodox economic and
numismatic policies, although I have some logomachy with them. I apologize for
having tyrannized you with my Hellenic phraseology. In my epilogue, I
emphasize my eulogy to the philoxenous autochthons of this cosmopolitan
metropolis and my encomium to you, Kyrie, and the stenographers.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophon_Zolotas](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophon_Zolotas)

~~~
cafard
The Avalon movie theater in NW Washington, DC, has a "Panorama of Greek
Cinema", which has always amused me because the only capitalized word that
does not derive from Greek is "Greek".

------
fit2rule
I'd love to have a way to do this automatically with my text .. anyone know of
a good way to do this, maybe there are some already-established dictionaries
which remove the non-Germanic words out there, somehow?

~~~
pseudonom-
I made a little website to do this a few months ago:

[http://angler.herokuapp.com/](http://angler.herokuapp.com/)

------
pseudonom-
Ha. I made a little website to automatically suggest Anglo-Saxon words a few
months ago:

[http://angler.herokuapp.com/](http://angler.herokuapp.com/)

~~~
voidlogic
This is interesting, I wrote a few samples describing my life and things I own
and it suggested no words. Then I pretended that I was starting a school
writing, and it found many.

------
coldcode
Germans love to make long words:
[http://german.about.com/library/blwort_long.htm](http://german.about.com/library/blwort_long.htm)

