
Ask HN: Startup CEO giving employee grief for quitting - kelvin0
Someone I know has been working at a startup for a almost a year. 2 months after their (2 weeks) vacation they decide to quit for another (closer) job.<p>This is what the CEO wrote to that employee:<p>&quot;I would like that employees don’t take two weeks of paid vacation then give notice the next week, feels like stealing from the company but that’s life. I really wish you hadn’t, it leaves us with a terrible experience from someone we I enjoyed working with. Especially when that money really matter to us.&quot;<p>That employee had glowing reviews from his colleagues during their time at that startup. The CEO even tried to cajole them into staying. Also, that employee still has not received last months pay ...<p>Are all startups like this?
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isaaclyman
I left a startup job recently. They did a stellar job handling it. They spent
a day or so making offers to get me to stay, then the remainder of my last two
weeks listening to my reasons for leaving, making plans to fix their problems
(so nobody else would leave), expressing their appreciation for my hard work
and helping me find leads for a new job. At least three people on the
executive team offered to provide a glowing reference for me, should I ever
need one. My last paycheck was deposited a couple of weeks after I left. One
of the classiest groups of people I may ever have the pleasure of working for.

I should point out that they lost nothing by this.

An employer who sends nasty emails and withholds pay is ruining the
possibility of a valuable future re-hire, causing needless guilt, turning his
own employees against him, building himself a poor reputation, and begging for
a lawsuit. It's a heavy price to pay for his own pettiness.

~~~
lorenzorhoades
Out of curiosity, why did you leave? This has not been my experience with most
founders, so it sounds like you hit the jackpot. Would you also be willing to
share what company this is?

~~~
isaaclyman
It's a Utah company called DirectScale. The company is really great, but some
circumstances surrounding the product and work environment were making me feel
really unproductive. Which might not be a big deal for everyone, but it was
for me. I rode it out for a few months, lobbied for some changes, and
eventually decided it was time to move on.

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sgk284
I'm assuming this is only an issue because your company probably has an
"unlimited" vacation policy. I'm also assuming you're in the United States.

In any traditional salaried role with a fixed amount of PTO an employee is
paid out for any remaining PTO when they leave. "Unlimited" policies are a
mess, for among many other reasons, because they allow companies to skimp out
on paying time earned.

There is nothing unethical about what the employee did. They earned that time
and/or value, and were compensated for it in the only way the company allowed
them to be compensated for it. If the company wants a different set of
incentives then they should change their vacation policy to a real one.

Your CEO, on the other hand, absolutely acted in an inappropriate way and,
assuming they continue not to pay the employee, is acting illegally. Not all
startups are like this but it is admittedly amateur hour at most of them.

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foepys
This annotated be emphasized enough. Unlimited vacation time is a fraud and
leads to employees taking less vacation days. Peer-pressure is insanely strong
and employees directly, compare their performance to others.

~~~
isaaclyman
That is not always the case. My last job had unlimited PTO and some of us took
20+ days per year.

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tudelo
20 days does not seem like an extravagant ammount

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isaaclyman
Around here anything above 15 is a lot.

~~~
bartozone
Yeah, anytime I take more than 10 days off in a year, I know that I'm pushing
above the average. And that counts days around the holidays too. Every year I
plan to take one vacation in the summer for a long weekend, or a full 5 days
off in a row if I can.

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chasing
All startups are not like that.

That e-mail is 100% amateur hour:

1) It's not really the employee's duty to sacrifice vacation time or pay
because the company he or she works for is hurting for money.

2) Regardless, CEOs can't "think aloud" or make vague threats like that. It's
whiny and childish. If the goal is for the employee to give money back --
that's insane. If the goal is to prevent employees in the future from taking
vacation within a certain timeframe of leaving the company, the CEO needs to
talk with his current -- not former -- employees.

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codegeek
So the CEO is upset that someone used their earned benefit and then left ?
Yea, what a great leadership example. /s

"Are all startups like this?"

No, just the shitty ones you don't want to work for. Btw, if it happened to a
co-worker, it could happen to you tomorrow. I wouldn't work for a CEO who
cries over someone using their benefit.

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futhey
More often than not, employers at startups seem to take routine employee
departures personally. Common mistake. Probably has something to do with the
amount of personal energy most founders have invested in recruiting, and how
difficult recruiting has become.

Not an excuse, just a rationalization. Fairly common. Not at all excusable
behavior on the part of the CEO.

Take it as proof that you were a valued member of the team. There's a chance
you'll hear something like "CEO casually remarked you weren't that valued
anyway", etc.

Honestly I've seem startup CEOs act like they just got dumped by their
girlfriend after a good programmer leaves, even if they've went above and
beyond and stuck around for several years.

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mattbgates
I wouldn't say its proper practice, BUT... 2 weeks notice is best, at least
for courtesy. It's not always easy to get another person in there when they
have to trace footsteps. BUT its not illegal, just frowned upon.

Where I worked, it wasn't a startup, but a small business that had been fairly
successful. I was hired for cheap and taken advantage of... anyways, I had
worked there for over a year and then found another job because I couldn't
stand the tyrant boss any longer. He basically cursed me out on my final day.
And he withheld my last paycheck for almost a month, claiming that I still had
his key, which I had returned to his wife (who was his payroll accountant).

Some more details here: [http://confessionsoftheprofessions.com/the-
opportunity/](http://confessionsoftheprofessions.com/the-opportunity/)

Another job I had would not give me my 3 weeks paid vacation... I had to get
the Union involved after a month of not getting my "vacation paycheck"
(company offered option for paycheck instead of vacation) who were just about
to use their lawyer. Company me that paycheck in just a few days.

~~~
wpietri
What makes you think they didn't give two weeks notice?

~~~
mattbgates
Maybe they did. Just saying it is common courtesy. If they did.. then... I
can't see an issue for taking your vacation and then cutting out.

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cyberferret
If they have worked there for nearly a year, I would hope that they would have
more than 2 weeks vacation time accrued? I am guessing there was also some
more vacation time that needed to be paid out?

Secondly, you said your friend quit 2 months after taking their vacation, but
the CEO's email says "take 2 weeks vacation then give notice the next week".
Did you friend actually give notice to quit a week after vacation (i.e. give
them about 6 weeks+ notice that they were leaving) or serve notice 2 months
after returning from holiday?

Having been a business owner who has hired staff in the past, yeah it sucks
when employees quite _while_ on holidays - mainly because it gave me no time
to plan to hire a replacement, or to have them help train/handover to the
replacement staff member.

But if they have taken holidays that were legally owed to them then there is
nothing I can do about that, and it would be unprofessional to vent about it
as it is well within their rights (albeit inconvenient to the business).

It also comes down to whether the employer lets their employees take their
leave in advance (e.g. your policy is 4 weeks holiday per year, and a staff
member wants to take the entire 4 weeks when only 6 months into their
employment). Some companies let you do that, sure - but in THOSE cases, if the
employee quit while on holiday then there is a real issue because the took an
extra 2 weeks holiday that they hadn't yet fully accrued. Though in your
friends case, unless they had taken other leave earlier in the year, they may
still be within their accrued allowance?

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Mimisbrunnr
If they give appropriate notice what is the difference whether the employee is
on holidays or not?

Having watched from the sidelines while workplace relations break down a few
times, it always amazes me how simple forthright communication could solve
many of the issues both parties have.

Too many on both sides treat employment as a battle to be fought rather than a
mutually beneficial arrangement.

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mrgordon
Sounds like a terrible CEO. That is completely inappropriate and
unprofessional.

~~~
fapjacks
Sounds like the kind of place where the CEO will say those kinds of things
because "we're all family here". But I'm guessing if something unprofessional
went the other way, there'd be hell to pay.

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staticautomatic
Not getting paid is often a sign that the company will collapse in the near
future. For the best that they left.

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sundaeofshock
In the state of California, much of what you described is illegal. I suggest
you have your friend speak with an attorney.

~~~
joezydeco
Almost all states have wage laws that dictate when a departing employee must
get their last check, and it's typically the last day of work or the next
scheduled pay date.

No need for an attorney. Write a letter to the state's board of labor. They do
not mess around with issues like this.

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godzillabrennus
Immature response from an immature leader.

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e-sushi
Startups… not all of them can handle (let's just call it) "rejection". I've
seen other reactions too, so — no, they're not all like that.

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Mikeb85
Fuck that company. Employees are entitled to their pay and vacation as stated
in their employment contract (or whatever the laws are in the jurisdiction in
which they're working), in return, all they owe is to do work as stated in
their contract. A year of work has definitely earned 2 weeks of vacation...

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alexasmyths
"Are all startups like this?"

Small startups are gangs of young people trying to do something.

They vary as much as the social nuance among groups of friends at University.

Although the statement is unprofessional, it's mild on the scale of 'things
that go on'.

Founders and employees are under an incredible amount of pressure - 'early
employees' are not just 'employees' \- there's a sense of commitment beyond
that, and usually people have a lot of _identity_ derived from their endeavour
as well, so it's 'human' that someone might take it all personally.

Bill Gates used to scream and yell at his team regularly, and there are a ton
of stories about the 'old Jobs'. I'm not validating their behaviour, rather,
just pointing out that it's all a little spurious.

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rabboRubble
Generally holiday time is prorated throughout the year. If the employment
package includes 2 weeks of vacation and you work from Jan 1 through Jun 30,
you have 1 week of vacation time with that employer. Entirely fair to use
them, especially if vacation time rolls over and accrues year to year. I can
understand the employer being an ass about taking holidays, a lot of American
managers are, but perhaps the manager should first be looking at his
employment vacation policies.

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bdcravens
Many jobs will pay you accrued leave time. Presumably they either felt they
had to take it before quitting, pointing to bad HR policy, or perhaps their
time away from the job gave them reason to consider their career. Either way
this sounds abusive, and in a world where you're one tweet away from a PR
nightmare, potentially more damaging to the startup than whatever money this
employee "stole" by quitting.

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chris_wot
Except it's not. That's their leave, not his. They haven't stolen anything.

Not paying the employee, on the other hand... that's theft.

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krapans
I would say this is more about that person who wrote that message, not about
startups in general. Because in the end, large company or startups, its
peoples decision how to react to things.

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whamlastxmas
Unprofessional but not uncommon. I've had the misfortune of being called an
"ideal employee" at a review only to be lambasted and threatened with legal
action after quitting.

~~~
Buttons840
What legal action can the possibly threaten?

~~~
whamlastxmas
A late response, but the legal action was threatening to sue me for
infringement of their intellectual property because my portfolio included
projects I worked on there. It was an obvious case of Fair Use, but like the
other guy said, suing me would have been pocket change for my employer and
devastating for me regardless of who won. So I took down my portfolio.

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whataretensors
Are all startups led by manipulative people? Nope.

Your friend made the right choice.

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maxxxxx
Not all startups are like this. This CEO is a textbook emotional abuser.
Unfortunately this strategy generally works pretty well.

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jesseddy
Not all startups are like this, this is an issue with the CEO. Some "leaders"
take leaving a company personally.

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fapjacks
There are shitty startups, just like there are shitty enterprises.

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kelukelugames
Anyone can be petty.

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smegel
Isn't leave paid out anyway when you quit?

~~~
ceejayoz
Why do you think businesses like "unlimited" time off so much?

"Unlimited" means "no accrued time".

~~~
joezydeco
Bingo!

