
Raspberry Pi Zero vs. Elliott 405 - sebkomianos
http://www.spinellis.gr/blog/20151129/
======
userbinator
One thing that's missing from the comparison is that the Elliott 405 likely
came with a full set of documentation, down to the circuit level, whereas
Broadcom has kept much of the Pi's SoC details proprietary.

In 60 years, archives and museums will still have great primary-source
information on the Elliott 405 and its contemporaries. Will the same be true
of the Pi? It's easy to focus on the smaller, cheaper, faster, but it must be
realised that a significant amount of openness has been lost; and not merely
because computers have become more complex, but also because there are
commercial interests strongly discouraging us from understanding the details
of how these machines work.

~~~
ben174
Another thing people always miss is that - unlike the Elliot 405 - the Pi
doesn't come with a keyboard.

That's where they get ya.

~~~
byuu
Nah, it's the storage:

"8 GB (typical micro SD flash card - _not included_ )"

Which one's the better value _now_ , huh? (I mean, given it's no PS Vita
memory card, but still ...)

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TheOtherHobbes
Just for fun, if you extrapolate to 2065 you get something so small it's
invisible and practically free, with a cycle time in the hard x-ray to gamma
range, more than 150TB of main memory, and an output bandwidth comfortably
fast enough for at least ten life-size holographic displays.

~~~
femto
> for at least ten life-size holographic displays.

I remember reading somewhere that the bandwidth of the optic nerve is about
10Mbit/s. Given that we've had 10Mbit/s Ethernet for years, couldn't it be
said that we already have the hardware to build a display that is
indistinguishable from reality, and it is now "just" a coding problem, in that
if a 10Mbit/s stream contained exactly the right information the brain would
interpret it as reality?

~~~
hodwik
Wouldn't you need much more than 10Mbit/s before the lens, if it's getting
compressed down to 10Mbit/s after the lens?

That is, unless you're talking about injecting that data directly into the
optical nerve.

~~~
officialchicken
The only way it's below 10Mbit/s if you have a cataract and are legally blind.
Or it's dark.

The eye has significantly more bandwidth than 10Mbit/s - it's "reality" in
front of the retina, (say, 20-30K) a bit above 8K at the retina (rods/cones),
and almost the same in the optic nerve.

We can see/study data directly on the optic nerves now, and understand pretty
well how common aberrations or deformities affect the retina.

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Jerry2
In tech space, even 9 years can produce 1000x results. I love this microSD
storage example, 2005 vs 2014:
[http://i.imgur.com/1jyVev4.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/1jyVev4.jpg)

~~~
stordoff
I had a similar realisation a few days ago - I was putting a new microSD card
in my phone, and realised that it represented 100 times the storage of my
first PC (200GB vs 2GB). I still get a feeling of "this shouldn't be able to
store this much" every time I use a microSD card.

~~~
vive-la-liberte
>this shouldn't be able to store this much

Same here. I was thinking about how many CD-ROMs it would take to store a
certain amount of information, as a measure of just how much data something
amounted to. Then I thought that with microSD cards, the same amount of data
would sound much less impressive.

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drcode
The cost efficiency of the Elliot, adjusted for inflation, was 1445 dollars
per cpu cycle per second (when running at the listed peak speed)

For the Pi Zero, it is 0.000000005 dollars per cpu cycle per second.

~~~
masklinn
That doesn't take in account instruction-level parallelism, and of course the
Elliot didn't have a global clock so the idea of CPU cycles doesn't really
make sense.

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rebootthesystem
The part that's missing in the comparison:

Elliot 405: Used to run business calculations

Pi Zero: Used run a sprinkler system

What has been really interesting to me over the last several years that these
stick computers have been around is how people are using giga-Hertz range
processors with an huge operating system and truckloads of memory for stuff
that's easily done with a small 8 bit processor with K's of RAM vs G's of ram
and a simple time-sliced tasking mini OS written in an afternoon.

Don't get me wrong, it's great that one can buy a computer like the Pi Zero
for $5. I'm afraid something is being lost in the process. Maybe it doesn't
matter. I mean, if one can get something the size of your pinky that cost less
than coffee at Starbucks to run Linux...

~~~
soared
How many people do you really think can just casually write an OS? I can set
up automated almost anything with almost no lines of code. We've lose the
specialization because so many people now have access to these incredible
things.

~~~
Someone
People not being able to write an OS is part of _" I'm afraid something is
being lost in the process"_

You don't need a memory allocator, file system or scheduler for an 'OS' that
runs a single task.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
Nothing is being lost in the process as long as we continue to churn out
people who are still interested in the low-level bits of the process.

I used to point out to people that the control algorithm they were so
laboriously writing on their PIC/AVR (now Arduino...) could be replaced with a
20 cent transistor and a handful of diodes and resistors. For exactly the same
reason: the overkill bugged me and I was bothered that "kids today" weren't
learning things "the right way." Then I began to shut up because I realized I
was looking at progress. We don't need experts in analog electronics to build
basic control systems: a web hacker who learns C can handle the simple stuff
(emphasis on _simple_ ).

Likewise, I now find myself telling others to forget about building 555 timer
circuits or elaborate digital contraptions to sequence their LEDs and relays
and just buy a $5 Arduino Nano and get it done in a few minutes.

It's progress!

~~~
rebootthesystem
Except that the higher up you get in hardware the more everything turns into
analog again. All of a sudden one's and zero's are not one's and zero's any
more! :)

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Gracana
Don't let anyone fool you, at six tons the 405 is almost 25 times more
computer per dollar than the Raspberry Pi. Now that's value!

~~~
StavrosK
I have a boulder to sell you that you're gonna love!

~~~
mikeash
The other day, I was looking at a smart lock on Amazon, and they listed the
price per ounce. I think you may be on to something.

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
In Australian supermarkets the cost per unit weight net (typically 100 grams)
has to be printed on shelf under / next to the price.

I've proposed the idea that the price of everything in the supermarket be
averaged per unit weight, checking out then becomes just a matter of weighing
the trolley / basket.

I see complications / gaming the system, fun idea though.

Maybe just knowing how much you spend per average kg of food, or per unit of
energy, could be a useful metric for optimizing food expenses.

~~~
mikeash
They'd sell out of helium balloons instantaneously, for one thing.

~~~
eru
You'd have to weigh the trolley in a vacuum, of course.

~~~
72deluxe
I think the helium balloon prices are adjusted for inflation though.....

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vinceyuan
I submitted the same post
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10689371](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10689371)
11 hours ago. But 4 hours ago, dang moved my comment to this post which was
created 3 hours ago. It's very weird.

~~~
grp
A kind of time travel, welcome!

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radoslawc
BTW Elliot had quite interesting memory design:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delay_line_memory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delay_line_memory)

~~~
sklogic
Ferranti Pegasus used the same (and it's still up and running!):
[http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/images/I039/10307498.aspx](http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/images/I039/10307498.aspx)

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clarkmoody
Technological progress is an excellent example of how _deflation_ helps the
average person. Your money buys more and more compute power each year.

Central banks are targeting _inflation_ , which slowly robs the saver of
purchasing power.

Areas with high government regulation and control suffer from price inflation,
where you get less and less each year for the same money: healthcare,
education, war.

~~~
PKop
And though prices are continually falling for tech goods, people do not
refrain from buying (as the myth says they will).

You know the iPhone you buy today will be much less next year, but you still
buy because it serves a purpose for you now.

They only type of spending perpetually lower prices would probably decrease is
speculative buying. If you don't need a particular good now, you may wait
knowing the price will fall. But this is also a good thing.

~~~
julianz
Disagree, I've refrained from buying several products in recent years because
I know if I can keep the old one going for one or two more product generations
then the new one will be much, much better. It also influences my choice of
product, I'm more likely to get something high end and keep it for longer.

~~~
PKop
OK, but in a general sense, the number of computing devices being purchased
continues to grow.

Apple keeps setting iPhone sales records. Your examples, I would argue, are a
_good thing_. People buy only when they absolutely need these goods, _not_
because they are afraid they need to buy in excess _now_ because their savings
is going to lose value relative to the cost of these goods. They get full use
out of the goods they purchase. Less wasteful spending, and wasteful use of
resources needed to produce them. Moore's law illustrates that the cost of
computing power has continually fallen. The industry has certainly not
suffered because of this, would you agree?

So without putting to fine a point on it: The tech industry is as healthy as
any in the entire economy. And yet, prices fall faster than just about any
other. Consumers unambiguously benefit from these falling prices. Keep this in
mind when economists or politicians sing the praises of "mild" inflation. This
would certainly benefit governments who want to run a deficit and spend money
they have to borrow. But I'd argue this does not benefit the consumer.

Thought experiment: will you plan on spending more on discretionary items
(entertainment, vacation, home remodeling, investments, whatever...) if you
anticipate / observe _rising_ prices on staples such as food, healthcare,
rent/mortgage, gas, utilities, etc?

Or, will you spend more on discretionary items if you anticipate / observe
_falling prices_ on those same items? Your available budget will be greater
and of course your spending will increase in these areas if you have more
money to spend. So the utility, or benefit you receive as a result is clearly
higher.

Debtors benefit from rising prices because they can pay off debt with cheaper
currency. So, as previously mentioned government, the biggest debtor, promotes
inflationary policy.

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haberman
Awesome. The only thing that would make this chart better is seeing the factor
of improvement on each stat. The differing units make it harder to eyeball
than it could be. Also would be cool if the price was inflation-adjusted.

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brandonmenc
Interesting, but crazier is that the Zero kicks the snot out of the laptop I
took to college in 1997.

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neves
Excuse me for the digression, but the best thing of this post was to
reencounter with Mr. Spinellis blog. I love his books (there's a new one!) and
since I ditched RSS readers, I've never more visited it. I advice you to spend
some time there.

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billybilly1920
At least the Elliott 405 shipped with IO devices.

~~~
agumonkey
and that case.

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BocceBaal
The Raspberry Pi Zero even compares favorably to the Cray 1 supercomputer from
1975.

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philip142au
Could have someone made a microchip in 1957 if they just "knew enough", I
mean, if you sent someone back in time to 1957 with today's knowledge, could
someone build a microchip from today back then?

~~~
Cyph0n
The answer is no. Today's integrated circuits are all manufactured using
extremely precise equipment not available back then. Furthermore, the designs
are impossible to execute by hand and require complex software, not to mention
extensive verification.

For a CPU like that of the Zero (ARM11), we're talking about at the very least
upwards of 100 million transistors on a single chip. Only by simulating the
design can you actually catch that single incorrectly biased MOSFET. Think
software debugging, but on a whole different level. Then you have all the
other components on the Zero responsible for tasks ranging from power
management, networking, graphics processing, clocking, sound processing, and
so on.

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xedarius
On thing missing from the top trump card is power consumption.

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varjag
What difference it makes if all it does is blinking a LED?

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arbuge
The comparison starts to look different if you include an "Availability Date"
row...

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guylepage3
Haha. Love this. I just setup my PiZero to run Blockstore this weekend. I'm
absolutely amazing by this little machine. Was actually blown away with the
speed even though it's 1/2G of RAM. Impressed.

~~~
daveguy
Blown away with the speed even though it's 512MB ram... Are you, by chance,
coming from a windows os? If so, welcome!

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akhilcacharya
I'd like to see a more recent comparison, honestly. Where can I find that? (10
years, for instance)

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vinceyuan
Weight: 9g vs 3-6 tons

Price: $5 vs £85,000 (1957)

Amazing technology advance!

~~~
return_0e
Also within that timespan, 1.2MB of magnetic film vs 8GB MircoSD card (upto
128GB on a Pi Zero?) That's Moore's Law in action!

~~~
return_0e
edit: Specifically to storage, the Moore's Law equivalent is Kryder's Law,
named after Mark Kryder.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Kryder](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Kryder)

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nan0
I think I prefer the Elliott 405 than the Raspberry Pi Zero ! (Joke)

