
“Eeny, meeny, miny, mo” and the ambiguous history of counting-out rhymes (2015) - pepys
https://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2015/04/16/losing-count/
======
cestith
In my childhood neighborhood, we didn't let the tiger go, and we didn't repeat
the initial line.

"Eenie, meanie, miney, mo Catch a tiger by his toe If he hollers make him pay
fifty dollars ev'ry day"

It wasn't so much to "count", as we counted with the named of numbers. It was
applied as a pseudorandom selector, with the assumption that the person
counting hadn't thought through the math to the point of knowing which child
would be "it" for the next game of tag. Whoever starting counting around the
circle first got to point to the "eenie" person, then around the circle.
Sometimes this would be followed by another rhyme and there were a few options
for that.

~~~
umanwizard
For us it was:

Eenie meenie minie mo / Catch a tiger by his toe / If he hollers, let him go /
My mother said to pick the very best one / And you are not it

I wonder if it's a regional difference -- I'm from Arizona.

~~~
JoshTriplett
The variations with those kinds of elaborations towards the end always seem
more amenable to ad-libbing more or less syllables (like "very", or "are not"
versus "aren't") to change the result when you see how it'll turn out.

~~~
umanwizard
You could try to play tricks like saying "mom" instead of "mother" or
something, but anyone with any sense of rhythm would have noticed it was the
wrong number of beats.

------
senko
Similar one in Croatian, where the entire rhyme consists of nonense words:

    
    
        En Ten Tini,
        Sava Raka Tini,
        Sava Raka Tika Taka
        Bija Baja Buf.
    

It kind of looks related to the English/Welsh "Yan, tan, tethera"
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yan_tan_tethera](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yan_tan_tethera))
mentioned in the article, which is a bit surprising to me since Croatian (and
southern-slavic in general) languages haven't borrowed much English words
before the second half of 20th century and this is certainly older.

~~~
pacaro
Yan tan tethera is usually postulated to be of Celtic origin (it usually uses
"dick" for ten, which is presumably a cognate of the Welsh "deg")

IIRC the celts moved all across Europe, but that pushes the timeframe back by
two millennia or so

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Deg seems probable to be a mutation of "dec" from the Roman occupation, ie
adopted from Latin? Transliterated Cymraeg numbers (in South Wales) go "een,
die, tree".

Old Welsh appeared just before the mediaeval period, coming from the common
Brythonic tongue(s) AFAIK. There's a lot of Latin, not all recognisable:
_fenestr_ , is easy to see; _ysbyty_ (iz-bit-ee, "hospital") less clear due to
modification to a supposed origin of " _ty_ " (meaning house).

Interestingly you can find some English words, often again heavily mutated,
that no longer exist in English (see eg
[https://archive.org/stream/englishelementin00parruoft/#page/...](https://archive.org/stream/englishelementin00parruoft/#page/13/mode/1up;)
don't have my other references handy).

Edit: one other reference that's to hand,
[https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=nWpbDAAAQBAJ&lpg=PA335&o...](https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=nWpbDAAAQBAJ&lpg=PA335&ots=CKH7D1HisI&dq=barclod&pg=PA336#v=onepage&q&f=false).

~~~
davidw
> adopted from Latin

Maybe just indo-european in origins? Yes, it looks like 'dec'. See
singularity2001's answer.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Don't think that covers it so well. The area we now call Wales was occupied by
the Romans at which time the official language of the region was Latin. The
Brythonic that was present across [at least Southern, ie below Scotland,]
Britain clearly then adopted loanwords. However, it's hard sometimes to see if
they were adopted in to the Briton's language, adopted in to English and then
in to Cymraeg, or adopted in to English from Norman-French and then in to
Cymraeg. The earliest non-fragmentary Cymraeg documents are from a couple of
hundred years after the Norman conquest AFAIK.

Clearly it seems naively to be Indo-European, but specifying Latin origin
gives a bit more nuance: it could be wrong nuance! I'm afraid I'm not learned
enough to know if it's Cymraeg loaned from English via Norman-French from
Latin, or if it's direct, or indeed some other more or less tortuous route.

~~~
int_19h
Thing is, it's "dekm" in proto-Indo-European - and for a word that simple and
basic, it's likely that it was already well-established as a direct derivative
in Celtic before Latin had a chance to influence it. Most other IE languages
also inherited it directly - e.g "deka" in Greek, "deset" in Slavic, "dasa" in
Sanskrit etc (the s/k difference is satem/centum). It would be weird if Celtic
was special.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
I'm well out of my depth as I'm sure you can tell, but I think the phrase is
_porque no los dos_?

Sources suggest _dekam_ is Common Brythonic, but that doesn't mean the Old
Welsh _dec_ (now _deg_ in Cymraeg) didn't come from Latin?

Wouldn't it be weird if mutation of words in Celtic/Brythonic and Latin
happened identically over time. Of course the similarity through earlier
common ancestry of counting words would facilitate such a move.

Thanks for your input though, my suggestion was supposed to be tentative as I
know there are Latin loan words in Cymraeg from Old Welsh.

Do you know whence comes the support for "dekam" being well-established in
Celtic via IE, is it largely based on phonemic evidence?

~~~
int_19h
I don't know the exact etymology of this word in Celtic - just mentioning some
other languages with a similar relationship to PIE, but not necessarily with
the same degree of influence by Latin, for comparison.

I'm not sure what you mean by "mutation of the words happened identically over
time"? The Latin for "ten" is "decem" \- it didn't drop the "m" (hence also
"decimus", "decimatio" etc). Most Romance languages did drop it eventually -
but that came later, and in any case those languages wouldn't be in a position
to influence Welsh.

FWIW, I don't think it would be all that surprising for related but diverged
languages to evolve in a similar way. Sure, they may have developed some
different laws governing those changes since the divergence - but they will
also have some common laws from their shared ancestry. And there's "convergent
evolution" of languages, as well. Although it would be interesting to find out
if this particular change is really governed by some common rule, or some rule
that independently arose in two different branches, or it's just a curious
coincidence.

------
pbhjpbhj
We said: "eeny, meany, miny, mo; catch a nigger by his (its?) toe; if it
squeals let it go; eeny, meany, miny, mo" sometimes adding things like "O, U,
T, spells out".

FWIW I had no idea "nigger" could refer to a person and certainly didn't use
it in that way. But then no non-Europeans lived in our British village.

For some reason I recollect thinking it was about catching stickleback. Maybe
the only thing I could conceive catching by its 'toe' (ie end), as you have to
avoid the spines when catching them down in the sluice.

Having kids now, I find it interesting that at a disparate area of the UK they
have very similar rhymes, but with notable differences.

~~~
Symbiote
I made the same assumption about "nigger", that it was some kind of fish that
could be caught. We did have several races in my class, but I wasn't aware of
it.

But this was most popular at my primary school:

    
    
      Ip dip, dog shit 
      Fucking bastard, dirty git
      You are not it 
    

There was a clean version, "ip dip sky blue...", we only used it if an adult
was listening. I've forgotten the rest.

Also:

    
    
      There's a party on the hill, can you come?
      Bring your own bread and butter and a bun.
      Who is your best friend? [child says a name]
      T H O M A S
      You are out!
    

And

    
    
      Ippy dippy dation
      My operation 
      How many buses 
      In a London station? 
      [child gives number]
      1 2 3 4 5
      You are out. 
    

For both of these, some quick arithmetic could ensure I was selected, amid
accusations that this wasn't fair.

~~~
chrismorgan

      There’s a party on the hill, would you like to come? (Yes.)
      Then bring a bottle of rum-tum-tum. (Can’t afford it.)
      Then pack your bags and get lost.
    

Most couldn’t cope if you deviated from the script in your responses, but if
the nominated child _could_ apparently afford the bottle of rum-tum-tum it
might go on to a bag of silver and increasingly obscure items. But mostly the
counter would just tell you to pack your bags and get lost whatever you said.

------
chrismorgan
I’ve had this for a few years:

    
    
      Eeny, meeny, miny, mo
      Is deterministic, so—
    

I still need to write the last two lines. Ideally “stochastic” will make its
way in there; it can fit the metre.

~~~
thedailymail
How about

Eeny, meeny, miny, mo

Is deterministic, so

To make the outcome more elastic

Let's try a rhyme that's more stochastic

(Optimally, the speaker would add a variable number of nonsense syllables in
the last line. "Let's try a rhyme lalalalalalala that's more stochastic".)

~~~
Uhhrrr
Lose "Let's" \- better scansion.

~~~
rsfinn
Eeny, meeny, miney, mo,

Is deterministic, so

Make the outcome more elastic

With a rhyme that's more stochastic.

(You're welcome.)

------
singularity2001
What's about the Denmark Zimbabwe connection?

Denmark:

    
    
        Ene, mene, ming, mang,
        Kling klang,
        Osse bosse bakke disse,
        Eje, veje, vaek.
    

And Zimbabwe:

    
    
        Eena, meena, ming, mong,
        Ting, tay, tong,
        Ooza, vooza, voka, tooza,
        Vis, vos, vay.

------
dzdt
Here is the 1859 version of kids arguing over the right rhyme:
[https://books.google.com/books?id=T80XAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA254](https://books.google.com/books?id=T80XAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA254)

 _Or, if that does n 't suit, then take_

 _' Eeny, meeny, mony mite;_

 _Pesskalana, bona, strike;_

 _Parago, walk. '"_

 _" Pooh!" said Frank; "that aint right, nor anywhere near it. This is the way
I learned that one:--_

 _Eeny, meeny, mony, my;_

 _Pistolanee, bony, sly;_

 _Argy, dargy, walk._

 _The other boys all objected to this version of the saying, but Frank
insisted that if it was not the right one, it was certainly the best._

The oldest versions google books records reached print in 1855:
[https://books.google.com/books?id=v4IkAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA120](https://books.google.com/books?id=v4IkAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA120)

 _" Eeny, meeny, moany, mite,_

 _Butter, lather, boney, strike,_

 _Hair, bit, frost neck,_

 _Harrico, barrico, we, wo, wack. "_

and

 _" Eeny, meeny, tipty, te,_

 _Teena, Dinah, Domine,_

 _Hocca, proach, Domma, noach,_

 _Hi, pon, tus. "_

By 1888 there was a whole book on the topic, and the modern (pre-tiger)
version had taken hold:
[https://books.google.com/books?id=uH8MAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA46](https://books.google.com/books?id=uH8MAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA46)

 _Apparently the doggerel which is the favourite among American children to-
day is the senseless jingle:_

 _Eeny, meeny, miny, mo,_

 _Catch a nigger by the toe!_

 _If he hollers let him go!_

 _Eeny, meeny, miny, mo._

------
evincarofautumn
And here’s a French one:

    
    
        Am, stram, gram,
        Pic et pic et colégram,
        Bour et bour et ratatam,
        Am, stram, gram.
    

I could definitely see myself getting lost down the rabbit-hole trying to find
out the origins of these things.

~~~
singularity2001
Did the ancient oracles use hexagrams or just tripods?

------
singularity2001
Possibly related:

Ein Menetekel (Bible) [0] מנא מנא תקל ופרסין MENE, MENE, TEKEL, PARSIN <> Aen
Taen Tethera Peddera

Ene Mene miste, es rappelt in der Kiste. Ene Mene Meck Und Du bist weg. Ene
Mene Mu und dran bist Du (German)

Enenene maskim gul-a-meš [1](Sumerian adjuration / invocation / conjuration /
evocation / incantation ? )

Sumerian numbers AŠ (1) 𒀸 MIN (2) 𒋰 *EŠ (3) 𒀼

[0]
[https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menetekel](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menetekel)
"The writing on the wall" [1] DELITZSCH Grundzüge der Sumerischen Grammatik

------
shearnie
I remember in primary school in the 80's all the kids were actually using
"nigger". I went along with it, I didn't know what a nigger was.

I was in north Brisbane, Australia.

~~~
nitemice
Down here in Melbourne in the 90's, we used Tigger, as in the character from
Winnie the Pooh. It seems like a fair mid-point between the two most common
variants of this rhyme.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tigger](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tigger)

------
selfsimilar
Here in Chicagoland in the 80's we had the Eenie meanie of the article, but
also this variant:

Eenie, meanie, hippa-teeny A la la-la booba-leenie Atchie, katchie, booba-
latchie Out goes you

Then a whole slew of other rhymes used for picking 'it' in a game of tag, hide
and seek, scatter beans, kick the can, etc.

~~~
js2
I never heard that variant but I just read it to my kids and as soon as I got
to "atchie katchi" my 16 y/o daughter shot up and grabbed her 14 y/o brother
and the two of them broke into a paddy-cake like routine to this:

 _eeny meeny sesalini ooh ah tumbolini achi achi liberachi i love you

take a peach take a plumb take a sip of bubble gum no peach no plumb no sip of
bubble gum

saw you with your boyfriend last night how did you know i peeked through the
window nosy didn’t take a bath dirty stepped on a baby must be crazy that’s
why they call me

eeny meeny sesalini ooh a tumbolini achi achi liberachi i love you_

------
davidw
Exists in Italian too, although the wikipedia article cites research perhaps
linking it to something in Latin:

[https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambarab%C3%A0_cicc%C3%AC_cocc%...](https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambarab%C3%A0_cicc%C3%AC_cocc%C3%B2)

    
    
        « Ambarabà ciccì coccò
        tre civette/galline/scimmiette sul comò
        che facevano l'amore
        con la figlia del dottore;
        il dottore si ammalò:
        ambarabà ciccì coccò! »
    

The text is a bit more risque than in English. "ambarabà ciccì coccò" is the
nonsense part.

    
    
        three little owls (civette) on the dresser 
        that were making love
        to the doctor's daughter
        the doctor got sick

~~~
Jun8
This is great! I don't know any Italian, but that won't stop me from hazarding
a guess that the word _cocco_ perhaps may be derived from _coco_ , which in
turn reminded me of a translation given in Hofstadter's _Le Ton Beau de Marot_
(p 52b). Here it is:

    
    
      Mia coco,
      Io ti do
      Il buondi; 
      Stare qui
      Ti fa mal.
      L’ospedal
      Lascerai: 
      Aprirai
      II porton. 
      Con passion
      Fuggirai 
      Dai tuoi guai: 
      Stando a me,
      Cosi e. 
      Non poltrir! 
      E perir
      L'indugiar!
      Va’a mangiar
      Un boccon
      Di bonbon.
      Se ristai, 
      Smagrirai
      Di pallor
      E languor.
      O Gesu, 
      Pensa Tu
      Al suo pro. 
      Mia coco!

------
BobMackay
This counting-out game is known as the Josephus Problem, and dates back many
centuries. See
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_problem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_problem).
I have a wood-block printed Japanese textbook from around 1700 with a good
account of the problem.

------
takk309
Lexicon Valley did a great podcast on this subject.

[http://www.slate.com/articles/podcasts/lexicon_valley/2016/0...](http://www.slate.com/articles/podcasts/lexicon_valley/2016/09/the_invisible_language_of_nursery_rhymes_on_this_episode_of_lexicon_valley.html)

------
dwe3000
As with many others, "Eeny, meeny ..." was for selection. I remember using the
School House Rock lyrics/rhyme for counting by 5 for counting (Who's not
ready, holler I) during "Hide and Seek".

------
aaron695
Interesting we said nigger but we're told to use possum cause that was a bad
word.

Always assumed it was a localisation but it seems also multicountry.

