
Oklahoma isn't working. Can anyone fix this failing American state? - clumsysmurf
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/29/oklahoma-education-system-four-day-school-weeks-poor
======
tracker1
Maybe it's time to get rid of privatized prisons and maximizing incarceration
and felony convictions. May also be time to start expunging most felony
records after N years. Who tries to start a large-ish business when 1/12 the
population is caught, how many other felonies are committed? This is of course
only part of the problem.

In the end, it's time to look at the value proposition everywhere, cutting
education as deeply as they have should be a last resort. I'm all for cutting
in most places, but it's pretty clear that they have larger issues to address
than 4-day schools and a 1:12 felony rate will fix.

~~~
tpeo
"Expunging" criminal records might be a bit too much, since this information
might be still be useful for public statistics bureaus and for policy makers.
Making criminal records past a certain period unavailable to the public would
suffice.

------
totalZero
The author of this article lives in Canada and has written a book called "You
Dumb Okie." I don't see anything constructive about his tone, nor do I find
any new ideas in his writing. It sounds like criticism and resentment pointed
at red states.

~~~
terminus
> I don't see anything constructive about his tone, nor do I find any new
> ideas in his writing.

Umm... the article is making the case for how Oklahoma is failing it's people.
A case accompanied with publicly available data. The tone seems mostly
reasonable.

> It sounds like criticism and resentment pointed at red states.

You seem to be the one who's conflating Oklahoma with red states.

If you think there's something wrong about the article, maybe critique
something _in_ the article. Right now, all you seem to be doing is lobbing ad-
hominem attacks.

~~~
totalZero
As an Oklahoman, I think it's a little strange when someone at a Canadian
university writes an article funded by the Rockefeller Foundation about
"failing" Oklahoma, and has written a book called You Dumb [Epithet that
applies to me]. I don't see how the tone there is remotely reasonable.

The author explicitly links Oklahoma to Trump by describing it as having the
third-largest margin of victory in the presidential election. Hence the red
state comment.

I don't think you actually read the article, because you assumed that i was
lobbing ad-hominem attacks instead of directly referencing what the author has
written.

~~~
terminus
> As an Oklahoman, I think it's a little strange when someone at a Canadian
> university writes an article funded by the Rockefeller Foundation about
> "failing" Oklahoma, and has written a book called You Dumb [Epithet that
> applies to me]. I don't see how the tone there is remotely reasonable.

Three points:

One, your argument seems to be with the title and the tone of the author's
book. I'm looking purely at the content of the article which seems reasonable
to me.

Second, the response of Oklahoma's /governor/ to falling revenues is prayer: >
“Our situation is dire,” Oklahoma finance director Preston Doerflinger said.
“To use a pretty harsh word, our revenues are difficult at best. Maybe they
fall into the category of somewhat pathetic.”

> Governor Mary Fallin had an answer: prayer. The governor issued an official
> proclamation making 13 October Oilfield Prayer Day.

Doesn't that seem mind boggling to you? That definitely seems /dumb/ to me.

Third, I don't think that epithet "dumb okie" necessarily applies to you. The
author's argument -- without having read the book -- seems to apply to a
subset of Oklahoma. For instance the author is clearly sympathetic to the
victims of police brutality, the teachers of Oklahoma etc.

> The author explicitly links Oklahoma to Trump by describing it as having the
> third-largest margin of victory in the presidential election. Hence the red
> state comment.

That's fair. Sidepoint: how do you feel about Pruitt at EPA?

~~~
totalZero
> seems reasonable to me

your own black box idea of "Reasonable" is basically the justification for
everything you're saying. I can't really communicate with you when you are
setting the criteria for every point on which you and I seem to disagree.

~~~
terminus
How is it black box? The OP posted a link to an article; in the discussion, I
talk about how the tone of the _article_ sounds reasonable to me.

And, then I even give examples from the article describing how they seem
reasonable.

Look you clearly disagree with my criteria -- so go ahread and back that
disagreement up with an example from the article.

~~~
totalZero
It's totally impossible to debate your opinion of something being
"reasonable." I think the tone of the article is not reasonable. You think it
is. What is there to discuss if "reasonable" is your test of correctness? It
can't be proven or disproven.

And you totally glossed over something _from the article_ that I referenced,
instead calling it an ad hominem attack against the author. He straight up
linked Oklahoma to Trump as a glaringly high-margin-of-victory state. I'm not
disputing the vote tally, but I'm simply saying that the mention of it in the
article expressed an opinion on the relationship between red-state
conservatism and allegedly bad government.

So your comments aren't actually connected to what the author is saying, and
my larger criticism of his bias. I don't buy the idea that the funding and
role of the speaker are irrelevant. You seem to be pushing that idea pretty
hard. It just seems like you're selectively ignoring certain aspects of the
discussion because they don't line up with what you want to believe.

Not only that, but if I say something is a "failing" government entity, then I
am absolutely setting a critical tone, and perhaps a pejorative one. You can
have efficient, good government among religious folks, or you can have
ineffective government among religious folks. There isn't a causality
demonstrated by the author, but he still implies that government administered
by religious people is naturally ineffective.

You're going through the motions of discussing the article but you're
arbitrarily ignoring the context of the article, the bias clearly represented
by the author both in the text and in his other work, and the links the author
draws between Oklahoma, Trump and religion as a way of disparaging the state.

If you can't see that the author is not cold and unbiased in his arguments,
and would clearly prefer to live in a more secular and socialist (why else
criticize his own mother for refusing government welfare money) place than
Oklahoma, then I don't know how to say anything that is "reasonable" in your
view.

------
exabrial
What works in NY and CA is often very harmful in low population states. Laws
like AHCA and agencies like the EPA often give little consideration to the
economies of low density states. It doesn't have to be this way, we can
exploit natural resources safely, and we can have affordable health care, but
not in the current fashion.

~~~
sapienthomo
Oklahoma's natural resource exploitation regime is so lacking in regulation
that they are notorious for their man-made earthquakes. It is near the
theoretical lower limit of regulation. It is unimaginable that excessive
regulation is the state's foremost problem.

~~~
jjeaff
These man-made (mini) earthquakes have caused damage that in total could be
measured in the low millions of dollars (if that much).

To put that in perspective, a single large frac well can pull in a million
dollars a day easily.

------
thex10
Has anyone tried holding the people who run public institutions there
accountable for their failure?

~~~
sapienthomo
Oklahoma native here.

The state is an interesting mix of utterly dysfunctional state government and
reasonably competent city governments, in a state where most of the people
live in either Oklahoma City or Tulsa metro areas. I don't know much about
Tulsa but Oklahoma City has repeatedly passed sales taxes over the last 30
years in order to bring about civic improvements. These tax plans are known as
MAPS:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Area_Projects_Pla...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Area_Projects_Plan)
These plans have been executed pretty much according to what they claimed to
do, and the administration over the years has been competent and
uncontroversial.

The state government, on the other hand, is totally dominated by the
homophobia, Islamophobia, and the rest of the guns-and-gays distractions of
the national far right. State government has repeated slashed taxes on oil and
gas extraction, plunging the state into the crisis described in this article.
No meaningful debate ever takes place in the state legislature or executive.
Campaigns are fought entirely on the basis of who hates gays and loves Jesus
more than the other guy. It is really sad, and a strange contrast to the major
local governments.

When I was going to high school in Oklahoma I was offered a perfectly adequate
education at the public school nearest my house. We had all the AP subjects.
We had music, drama, and art. We had football, baseball, basketball, swimming,
and any other sport you'd care to think of, even rodeo. Of course we didn't
have sex education, which is why Oklahoma suffered from, and continues to
suffer from the worst teen birth rate of any state in the nation.

Back then, people went to private schools only because either their parents
were utterly unhinged Jesus freaks, or because they failed out of the public
schools. Private schools were for weirdos and losers. Now it's the opposite.
No family with any kind of money sends their children to public school in
Oklahoma. The state educational apparatus has completely failed in the span of
only about 25 years.

~~~
totalZero
Another Oklahoman here. I graduated from a public school ten years ago and my
graduating class had students who attended MIT, Princeton, and so forth. From
what I understand, my community has continued to send students from public
schools to first-rate colleges. So I don't know if I would say that "the state
educational apparatus has completely failed." Perhaps that could be true from
some of the non-population-center schools. It sounds a bit heavy handed for
OKC, Tulsa, Norman, and Edmond, at least.

~~~
sapienthomo
I agree that the well-funded suburban districts like Edmond will be the last
to show signs of distress, but even Edmond has "emergency certified" teachers
on staff. This term "emergency certified" means "uncertified". My sister lives
in Edmond and her kids are going to private schools.

If you graduated ten years ago you probably got, according to aggregate
measures, an education on par with the one being offered 25 years ago. The
real crisis has accelerated in the last five years. Per-pupil spending is
declining not only in real dollars, but even in nominal dollars, and stood
fourth-lowest among the states in 2014. It is even lower today.

------
mnm1
"Governor Mary Fallin had an answer: prayer. The governor issued an official
proclamation making 13 October Oilfield Prayer Day."

With such leadership is it any wonder the state is failing? Oil is over.
Either find another industry or accept the inevitable poverty. If the cities
are indeed doing well, however, then it's hard to say the state is failing. Of
course rural areas are poor, though the police and public workers could have
some empathy and compassion, both sorely lacking. Rural areas will fail as
they are failing and have been failing everywhere in the world. Only
entitlement created by some unusually prosperous years due to oil have made
the people not realize this.

------
cmurf
On the economic numbers, at least on an accounting basis, Illinois and
Connecticut are also failing states, and are in imminent risk of bankruptcy.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
On the crime numbers, Illinois looks pretty bad, too. (That's relevant to the
"failing state" claim, because anarchy in the streets means that the state's
law enforcement efforts are ineffective.)

~~~
devmunchies
it also makes the law enforcement more expensive and, in this case, more
wasteful.

~~~
cmurf
And potentially more desperate, which can result in collective punishment,
various civil rights violations, and expensive lawsuits.

This is about what you expect from kakistocracy.

------
gozur88
Oklahoma has always been on the short list of "poorest states", even before
the dust bowl.

------
grok2
Does anyone know if there is some mechanism for the general public to provide
funds to the education system in Oklahoma? Something like a gofundme page
where it is clear the money is going to the system and not getting mis-used or
mis-directed?

~~~
FiveDegrees
Taxes?

~~~
CrumhornCarl
That would certainly be nice, but from what I've seen there is quite of bit of
waste with the funds we do have...

I think this article touches on at least one of the problems:
[https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/21/univer...](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/21/universities-
broke-cut-pointless-admin-teaching)

------
neo4sure
What a difference between California and these stupid states. Calfornia is
about to become the 5th largest economy in the world. And these guys are
trying to prove a failed ideology over and over.

~~~
jjeaff
California is succeeding despite it's "stupid" government and policies. Not
because of.

Add to that, shipping ports and the fact that both Hollywood and tech started
there and a nice eternally warm climate and you have a recipe for a thriving
economy. None of which have anything to do with political leanings.

~~~
neo4sure
Sure it just works well without good government. Keep believing those myths
and you should go and live in the states run by the "proper" governments.

