
Tortured by the Japanese in WW2, a former POW met his tormentor 50 years later - bryanwbh
http://www.abroadintheyard.com/tortured-by-japanese-ww2-former-pow-met-chief-tormentor-again-50-years-later/
======
nl
_There, he was locked in a 5ft cage that soon became full of red ants,
mosquitoes and his own filth._

...

 _A towel was put over his mouth and nose. Then one of the guards picked up a
long rubber hose, turned a faucet on full force, and directed the stream onto
the towel. The water soaked through, blocking Lomax’s mouth and nose. He
gagged and frantically gasped for breath as water filled his throat. His
stomach began to swell. He was drowning on dry land. When the towel was
finally removed and Lomax had recovered from his delirium, he still refused to
confess and name his confederates. The water torture began once more._

Sounds horrible.

 _The memorandum describes in detail each of the techniques proposed as
generally used, including attention grasp, walling, facial hold, insult slap,
cramped confinement (large and small and with and without an insect), wall
standing, stress positions, sleep deprivation, and waterboarding._

The Bybee Memos, authored by the Deputy Assistant Attorney General of the
United States and signed by Assistant Attorney General[1]. These techniques
were used by the US on suspected terrorists.

I hate how the line between the good guys and the bad guys is so blurred I
sometimes question if it exists at all.

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bybee_Memo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bybee_Memo)

~~~
StavrosK
> I hate how the line between the good guys and the bad guys is so blurred I
> sometimes question if it exists at all.

What? You still believe in Hollywood-style good guys and bad guys? Do you
think that the Japanese believed then that they were the bad guys?

I am very surprised to see the good guy/bad guy mistake here. Everyone thinks
they are the good guy, because everyone has reasons for what they do,
otherwise they wouldn't do it. Even the nazis were exterminating Jews for the
good of their country, or so they told themselves.

~~~
nl
_What? You still believe in Hollywood-style good guys and bad guys? Do you
think that the Japanese believed then that they were the bad guys?_

What a boring, predictable response, that missed the whole point.

 _Of course_ I don't believe in Hollywood-style good guys vs bad guys.

But I used to believe that the US saw themselves as "good" and that self-image
acted as a self-imposed limiter on deliberate policies that the US would
enact.

For example, one could argue that internment of people of Japanese background
during WW2 was evil. However, there possibly is an argument that some of them
may have had mixed loyalties, and that acted as justification.

One might also argue that incidents like the deliberate infection of native
Americans with smallpox were evil, but they localized incidents, and not
something that was endorsed at the highest levels of government.

I don't agree with either of these excuses, but I see that there is an
argument one could make.

But to stoop as low as a policy of deliberate _torture_ and pretend that is
justified is beyond my understanding. I cannot see how anyone can truly
believe in their justifications for that - except if they believe those that
are being tortured are less than human.

~~~
soperj
Except that US didn't just intern US citizens of Japanese origin. They
interned Aleutians as well. They also went up and down the continent
collecting Japanese & German citizens of Latin American countries so that they
could trade them for POWs. This led to problems after the war because Peru
didn't want them back, and so they had to stay in the internment camps
indefinitely. This continued on until an american citizen actually sued to
have them be granted citizenship. They were in camps for over 3 years after
the war had already ended.

The only reason any of these people were interred was racism, plain and
simple. Farmers in California didn't want them owning the land.

~~~
mixmastamyk
Not the only reason, history is always more complex than we'd like it:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niihau_Incident](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niihau_Incident)

~~~
soperj
There is always justifications for racism. 3 people helping someone out before
the U.S had even declared war on Japan doesn't really seem like a very good
reason to intern native americans, does it?

~~~
mixmastamyk
Hindsight is always 20/20.

Yes, I'm able to say in perfect safety 70 years after the fact that it was a
mistake. If I had been alive and asked on Dec 10, 1941 the same question, I
doubt I'd give the same answer.

~~~
soperj
I understand where you're coming from, and I think that a lot of people
would(and do) agree with you. But it's the same as standing up now and saying
that the NSA spying on ordinary citizens is wrong. If it's wrong, it should be
wrong, and nothing can justify it.

~~~
mixmastamyk
Ok, but the original question was not whether it was wrong, but rather was it
"the only reason". Didn't mean to imply it was ever right.

------
rotub
My brother and sister walked 325km from Ban Pong to Sangkhla Buri along what
exists of this very railway. It was in memory of a POW my brother met at our
church who worked on the railway during his time in the war.

My sister wrote a book about the experience called Norn Lup? A Journey Of
Railways, Roads, & Wats. [http://intrepid-girl.com/blog/writing/buy-the-book-
norn-lup-...](http://intrepid-girl.com/blog/writing/buy-the-book-norn-lup-a-
journey-of-railways-roads-and-wats/)

And my brother made a documentary
[http://www.lukenowell.com/projects/lukenowell/thailandtrek/](http://www.lukenowell.com/projects/lukenowell/thailandtrek/)

Hope people don't mind these plugs but they both add value to the story behind
this railway and the people who worked on it against their will.

You can read about their expedition here
[http://www.deathrailwaywalk.com/](http://www.deathrailwaywalk.com/)

------
fromthefuture
Maybe Murnat Kurnaz can come back to America in 50 years and make friends with
his former torturers, too. And then a movie.

[http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/08/opinion/sunday/notes-
from-...](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/08/opinion/sunday/notes-from-a-
guantanamo-survivor.html)

------
mercurial
Interesting story. The ingenuity prisoners display is often remarkable. Of
course, this goes pretty much against the current mood in Japanese politics
(or at least what I, as a foreigner living abroad, reads about), which goes
more along the lines of "our brave soldiers never did anything wrong when they
were expanding the Co-Prosperity Sphere".

~~~
StavrosK
Are American politics any different, when "liberating" Iraq?

~~~
lovemenot
Two wrongs don't make a right. And what does America have to do with this
anyway? The protagonaists were British and Japanese.

~~~
StavrosK
My point was that most countries' politicians will support their atrocities,
and that it's not a phenomenon specific to the Japanese.

~~~
mercurial
No, but Germany, for instance, isn't trying to whitewash history in its
schoolbooks.

~~~
sitkack
I hope in 50 years (if we are still around), that the American people and the
American Government show a similar level of maturity.

------
emmelaich
My grandfather was POW at Changi for four years. He saw many of his friends
die; many tragically just after the war when they rashly ate too much of the
wrong thing. During his captivity his family didn't know whether he was dead
or alive. He never knowingly bought a Japanese product. He never spoke about
his experience much.

I'd like to think things would have been a lot better had he had the
opportunity to meet some genuinely apologetic Japanese.

~~~
StavrosK
What do you mean by "ate too much of the wrong thing"?

~~~
m0nty
After a period of malnutrition, you need to start taking small amounts of
relatively low-calorie food and building up from there. It is a well-known
phenomenon that eating too much calorie-packed food can be fatal. In his book
The Forgotten Highlander, Alistair Urquhart records the same thing happening
on the ship which transported former POWs home.

~~~
StavrosK
Oh wow, that is tragic. I was aware that, after being starved, you shouldn't
gorge yourself, but I didn't know you could die from eating even normal
portions... Thank you.

~~~
kkwok
Big problem during wars. Much of my grandfather's Chinese army group in WWII
died outside of fighting from this.

------
grifpete
If you want to reflect on something truly heinous bear in mind that during
torture sessions these days it is customary to have a doctor on hand to ensure
that the victim is not actually killed. The objective is to inflict ongoing
pain and killing would defeat the objective. So a doctor of all things
witnesses the process and keeps the victim alive so he/she can be tortured
more. Apparently you can get any professional to do anything no matter how
wildly those actions may seem to be to the most fundamental values of their
profession and the oath they swear to practice it.

~~~
aestra
Citations for this?

~~~
DenisM
[http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/08/opinion/sunday/notes-
from-...](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/08/opinion/sunday/notes-from-a-
guantanamo-survivor.html)

------
smegel
We dont seem to be so generous to Nazi torturers and murderers. They are still
being hunted down apparently.

~~~
bambax
It seems most of them don't show any kind of remorse and instead insist they
had been doing the right thing all along.

For example, Erich Priebke, who died last year, aged 100, always declared he
was only "obeying orders" in setting up the massacre of 335 people (including
children). Not only that, but his own son has always defended him and his
actions.

This kind of attitude doesn't help much with forgiveness.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Priebke](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Priebke)

~~~
ItendToDisagree
Not defending Erich in any way, but the "obeying orders" excuse has been used
by US Soldiers in Iraq (among other stories regarding previous wars in history
and involving other countries' soldiers). Do you think they should be
executed? The Nazi's were one of the first instances of prosecution for
soldiers who were following orders when committing war crimes (in the case of
concentration camps the scale may be the marker) so it is an interesting
question.

Seriously asking and not trying to be inflammatory. It is seriously just an
interesting concern of where "following orders" stops being a valid excuse.
For instance should drone operators controlling, attacks that kill a whole
wedding convoy, be prosecuted for following orders? Weird world we live in.

Again not defending Erich Priebke just a jumping off point for interesting
discussion.

Edit: Fix spelling

~~~
bambax
> _Do you think they should be executed?_

Yes. Not "executed", and not every soldier in every war; but torturers who
hide behind orders should absolutely be brought to justice.

Of course, if their country as a whole decides torture is suddenly ok, or even
cool (see most recent TV shows), then that won't happen.

The fact that it won't happen in the case of the US doesn't excuse the
Nazis... or anyone, really.

~~~
ItendToDisagree
I tend to agree. I really think there are two metrics. Genuine remorse and the
ability to concede that the actions were wrong or misguided.

I find it dismaying that currently our culture (most of the world, not just
US) seems to have gone backwards in terms of recognizing torture/misguided
killing/execution as a serious issue. There really is no excuse for such
behavior, although happens in times of conflict, it should be accounted for at
some point.

The ability of a country or people to recognize the wrongs of their past and
move forward, rather than denying that they were wrong, seems an important
thing.

------
haberman
I cannot begin to understand how a person can be subjected to that much
pain/torture and yet still remain defiant. It is unimaginable to me.

~~~
Roboprog
Perhaps he was angry at his captors.

Or convinced he was doing the right thing and that resistance was worth it
according to his value system.

I can't say, otherwise, never been tortured.

------
wila
It's an impressive story and hard for anybody of us to even imagine in this
day and age.

These days I live in Bangkok and have been fortunate enough to take the train
that rides over the track these POW have made. It was a very humbling
experience. Especially the parts where the train drives through rocky areas
where the walls have all been cut by human force, no explosives have been
used. It takes a whole day to drive the track which is among the parts that
make it so hard to believe it has all been made by hand and that so many
people have died while making it.

See also: [http://www.seat61.com/Bridge-on-the-River-
Kwai.htm](http://www.seat61.com/Bridge-on-the-River-Kwai.htm)

If you ever get a chance to visit, then I can highly recommend it.

Unfortunately looking at what these POW achieved is one of the few things we
can do to honor those who suffered there.

~~~
mercurial
> It's an impressive story and hard for anybody of us to even imagine in this
> day and age.

The torture part is very easy to imagine, in this day and age, unfortunately.

------
fforw
Something tells me there will be no meeting 50 years after the torture in US
secret prisons -- especially none with any insight into the wrongness of it.

------
brendan_gill
Extraordinary story. This reminds me somewhat of a 1955 reunion[1] of Paul
Tibbets, the pilot of the Enola Gay, and a survivor of the Hiroshima bomb in
an episode of "This is your life". I can't say the whole show is tasteful but
I found the meeting incredibly emotional to watch.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0m8D6APp64](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0m8D6APp64)

------
jpatokal
Server seems to be buckling under the load, but archive.org has a copy:
[https://web.archive.org/web/20131027021454/http://www.abroad...](https://web.archive.org/web/20131027021454/http://www.abroadintheyard.com/tortured-
by-japanese-ww2-former-pow-met-chief-tormentor-again-50-years-later/)

------
zalew
[http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rozmowy_z_katem](http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rozmowy_z_katem)

[http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&js=n&prev=...](http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fpl.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FRozmowy_z_katem)

------
MarcusBrutus
I find it strange that if Mr. Nagase had been a rather indifferent PoW camp
"administrator" who did not actively participate in torturing him, the late
Mr. Lomax would likely feel no great urge to meet him and make friends with
him. I' ve read that a kind of bond is almost always formed between the
tortured and the torturer. Something for psychologists to explore I guess.

~~~
jotm
Isn't that a form of Stockholm syndrome?

~~~
MarcusBrutus
Perhaps, in a broader sense. One particular account I've read in a
autobiographical book by a person who fought in a distant civil war and had
been on both sides of the table, so to speak, recalls how he felt the same
kind of bonding - "closeness" as he puts it - both with the people who
tortured him and those who he, himself, tortured.

------
dferlemann
I am certainly touched by this. I'd forgive a guy like that and many other
Japanese who admit to their horrific acts. I don't like generalization such as
saying I forgive Japan, nor would I say Japanese are monsters. So long the
stubborn politicians still exist, there will always be sting on Japan's
reputation as a country.

------
VMG
do yourselves a favor and don't read the comments on the site

~~~
jbm
The title originally may have contained a racial epithet, based on one of the
trackbacks; although I'm not sure (the trackback author may have changed the
title)

The comments are internet cancer.

------
BrandonMarc
I keep finding rumors the movie will be released in the US in a few months,
but nothing concrete.

[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2058107/releaseinfo](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2058107/releaseinfo)

~~~
lsh
It has been advertised on the London underground here for a few weeks now with
a January release date.

------
LeeHunter
One of the most astonishing books I've ever read is Unbroken, which is the
true story of an American pilot (and Olympic athlete) who went through a
similar experience as a POW of the Japanese. Well worth checking out.

------
notastartup
So assassinating ex-Nazi torturers is kosher but not ex-Imperial Japan Army
torturers, coercing Korean women as sex slaves for the Japanese army,
massacring an entire Chinese city, conducting live human experiments with
germs and chemicals?

~~~
a8da6b0c91d
If you read into the "comfort women" thing a lot of it turns out to be dodgy.
The imperial army bought into and regulated existing prostitution rackets.
(The US Army effectively did this, too.) After the war a lot of hookers
suddenly became sex slaves to the evil Japanese.

You have to keep in mind that even before the war in parts of Asia this was an
era where a poor farmer might sell a daughter to pimps. This is stuff that was
happening whether the imperial army was involved or not.

~~~
notastartup
Never mind the testimonials from the victims themselves. Never mind the fact
that Japanese politicians go out of their way to deny what went down.

doesn't make it any less illegitimate and immoral. Oh, and it wasn't just
Asian women, they enslaved European women too which made some part of the
"Comfort Brigade". Surely, Dutch women weren't being pimped out by their own
mothers? So this, "but everyone was doing it" from the mouths of the
perpetrating nation themselves is claim which is dodgy in itself and and a
lame excuse to cover up a war crime and crime against humanity and women. Your
argument would be like saying it's somehow joie de vivre of the times, no, no
other army conscripted armies of sex slaves to keep the morale of their troops
in a losing battle against Allied forces.

Do you want to deny the holocaust too because "people just didn't know better
back then", "scapegoating and suppressing and massacring minority population
cuz thats what dictators do" so the fact that it happened is now questionable?
Never mind the victims of holocaust themselves voicing their horrible
experiences?

I can't believe I'm hearing garbage like this, out of all places, on hacker
news.

~~~
a8da6b0c91d
I absolutely do discount victim testimonials. Especially when there's money at
stake. I mean, after the holocaust, and to this very day, some jews claimed
people were processed into soap and leather products. This and many other
claims by victims throughout history have been nonsense.

~~~
dferlemann
There are existing Japanese military documents on the subject... Writings of
Japanese officers admitting to it and publicly asking for forgiveness. Yeah.
Money at stake huh?

