
Just Do It: Move to Silicon Valley - jakek
http://jakek.posterous.com/just-do-it-move-to-silicon-valley
======
byoung2
Moving to Silicon Valley definitely gets you closer to a pool of tech startup
minded people and the venture capitalists that feed them in the same way that
moving to Los Angeles helps you start your acting career. But I'm sure that
there are quite a few wannabes up north who never moved beyond the dreaming
phase, just like there are quite a few waiters here in Los Angeles waiting for
their big break.

A tech startup anywhere needs smart founders and lots of determination. You
need more than just a zip code to make it in the startup world. I think the
location only helps if the other pieces are already in place before you make
the move.

~~~
timr
That's a great analogy. If I had a nickel for every goof with a "hot startup
idea" in the valley, I'd be richer than most of the people who _have_ hot
startups.

I've never lived in LA, but living in San Francisco feels like the technology
version of every hard-luck-actor tale I've read of Hollywood. It's so easy to
run across the modern equivalent of a waiter with a script (a hacker with a
business plan), that it's actually disconcerting to go to valley conferences
or social events. You're usually bombarded by so many people who _want_
something -- funding, partners, customers, external validation -- that you
tend to shut them all out.

~~~
byoung2
I've lived in LA all my life, and I've seen more than my fair share of
aspiring actors. I'm sure that their chances of making it big are better here
than they are in Kansas, but not by much if all you have going for you is the
fact that you live in LA. I'm sure the same rules apply for country singers in
Nashville, or dancers in New York. It might actually benefit startup founders
to stay out of an environment like the one you described!

~~~
alttab
_I'm sure that their chances of making it big are better here than they are in
Kansas, but not by much if all you have going for you is the fact that you
live in LA._

Adding to that: if the only difference between your success and failure is
your location - your probability of success to begin with is probably slim.
Success is a mindset, not a zip code.

------
fjabre
I struggle with this question myself a lot. I'm in LA currently and instead of
conversations about web startups in cafes - I hear managers talking to talent
and hot new ideas for movie scripts.. Pretty cool but doesn't help with a web
startup.

The one major complaint I continue to hear about SV from my male friends is
the severe lack of eligible females there. Being from the east coast and now
living in LA I might find it hard to live in place where I'm surrounded by
predominantly male engineers 24/7 who are only talking about tech. I used to
work as an engineer at Cisco and I remember that feeling. It wasn't a good
one.

~~~
starkfist
I left SF/SV because the dating scene was so bad and I felt like my startup
enforced "vow of celibacy" had gone on long enough. There are not enough
women, and the women who are there do not like you. If you are married or
don't care about dating, it's a great place.

~~~
fady
I find this not to be true, and to state generalizations about SF/SV dating
scene or lack thereof, is also far off from the truth.

Have you ever heard of Okcupid? I'm a tech guy, in the tech scene, working for
a tech startup, and have found that if you want to find/date women, you need
to be proactive about it (kind of like the old days). The city, and the
surrounding bay area are full of available women, who do want to meet "you"...
just need to look

If you're not social, then you wont meet anyone in this city, especially if
you moved here for a job, and have little friends, or time to meet people,
hence why dating sites like Okcupid are essential. If you grew up here, then
it might be easier as you have a larger network of friends, acquaintances -
that generally leads to more social events, etc..

Also - last time i checked, we have about an equal ratio of men to women (does
not include sexual orientation)

~~~
starkfist
Ah yes, OKCupid.

Here is my take on OKCupid. In SF, the real life singles scene is dominated by
men. If you go to an event or a bar, there is a lopsided ratio of men to
women. The women who are out, are typically insane. The cool women you want to
meet are actually on OKCupid because they are tired of being surrounded by
dirtbags and nerds (and insane women). So OkCupid works well for a man dating
in SF, because that's where the normal, interesting, good-looking women are.

In NYC the scene is the opposite. The bars and events are overrun with
attractive women. The weird trolls are the ones hanging out on OKC. Thus, if
you move across country to NYC and update your OKC location, you'll start
getting tons of messages from tattooed roller-derby girls who have pet snakes.
The type you were tired of meeting at the bars in SF.

YMMV, I'll grant that maybe YC has inspired a generation of debonair hackers
to move to SF and clean up with all the amazing local women.

~~~
sliverstorm
Why exactly are there so many attractive women? Is it something to do with NY
being popular among women, or the culture of the east coast, or the presence
of Ivies, or...?

edit: To clarify my question- _why are there more women in NYC_? Is there a
clear cause?

~~~
brianmwang
I have never seen anybody describe the Ivy League as being known for having
attractive women.

~~~
WarDekar
In one of John Taylor Gatto's books he brings up that Ivy League schools base
part of their admissions process on the attractiveness of the applicant
because they want to project a certain image. I'm not sure if this is true or
not, and I can't find a citation, but it was in Weapons of Mass Instruction
[1] I believe, but possibly Dumbing Us Down [2]. It was in his letter to his
niece at the end of Weapons, if I recall correctly. I have also been told by a
friend that is going to graduate school to an Ivy that it was part of the
admissions process, though I'm not sure how she knew this (I believe told by a
previous graduate).

[1] [http://www.amazon.com/Weapons-Mass-Instruction-
Schoolteacher...](http://www.amazon.com/Weapons-Mass-Instruction-
Schoolteachers-
Compulsory/dp/0865716692/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1277559059&sr=8-1) [2]
[http://www.amazon.com/Dumbing-Down-Curriculum-Compulsory-
Sch...](http://www.amazon.com/Dumbing-Down-Curriculum-Compulsory-
Schooling/dp/0865714487/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1277559059&sr=8-2)

------
spencerfry
"You can do a startup from anywhere.

And it's true. Except that it's mainly bullshit."

Doing perfectly well in New York City. Thank you very much.

Can we stop this silly banter?

~~~
robryan
The article mentions that there are plenty of good examples from other
locations, just they believe that it gives them a great chance of success.

~~~
spencerfry
Then why make the point at all?

~~~
sgman
The article makes the point that being in the valley improves your odds, not
that it's impossible to start a successful company outside the valley.

~~~
spencerfry
Who says? Where's the scientific study?

For example, we can't launch Foursquare both in Silicon Valley and in New York
City and see which has the better outcome.

~~~
frossie
_we can't launch Foursquare both in Silicon Valley and in New York City and
see which has the better outcome._

Well, I think the OP's point is that you aren't as likely to get as far as
launch in, say, Houston than you are in SV.

The problem is that it's hard to get a quantifiable handle on the question,
not only because it is hard to count startups that never got off the ground,
but also because it doesn't have to be true; people just have to believe it to
be true.

In other words, if everybody who wants to launch a startup moves to SV because
they think they have to, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy, irrespective
of whether it was originally true.

------
ojbyrne
In my opinion, another approach (even a recommended approach) is to incubate
elsewhere and move to the valley when you have some traction. There's just too
much noise there, too much "flavor of the month." Examples that fit this
approach that come to mind are flickr, digg, and stumbleupon. I'm sure there's
plenty more.

~~~
pg
_There's just too much noise there, too much "flavor of the month."_

I often hear people make this (in my opinion rather facile) criticism of SV,
but as far as I can remember I've never heard anyone give any evidence of it.

I've seen thousands of data points about this over the last 5 years, and I
have seen no evidence of it. The startup ideas submitted by YC applicants from
outside the Bay Area are no less likely (in fact probably more likely) to be
derivative than the ones from people who live here.

~~~
starkfist
There is a sideshow of nightly drunken mixers and panels and meetups and
conferences and such. If you attend these you will meet hundreds of loser
"CEOs" with idiotic derivative ideas. Most engineers and founders avoid this,
but Digg was one of main promoters of this nonsense, which probably colored
ojbyrne's experience.

~~~
ojbyrne
Accidental downvote, sorry. It may be more SF-centric than valley-centric. My
experience at digg did prompt me to network somewhat, so indirectly, you're
probably correct.

------
paulgb
This article, and many like it, seem to use "startup" and "consumer-facing web
startup" interchangeably. If you're doing the latter, you will at least be in
better company in the Bay Area. There are certainly companies that benefit
from having a presence there, but there's something to be said about being
outside a consumer-web echo chamber as well.

In Founders at Work, the one founder who I remember stressing the importance
of location the most was Mike Lazaridis, who started his company in a smallish
town an hour or two from Toronto. They have a higher market cap than all but a
few of the companies Jessica interviewed.

~~~
nostrademons
Google wasn't interviewed in Founders at Work, but they stress the importance
of location starting with Noogler orientation, with periodic reminders every
time you try working on a distributed team.

~~~
paulgb
They stress the importance of location of team members relative to each other,
or the importance of being in the valley? From my understanding, Google has a
number of engineering sites outside of the Valley, even in the USA.

~~~
nostrademons
When you're a startup, that's pretty much one and the same.

The overall principles are that team members should be close to one another,
and that you should focus very intensively on making sure you have the right
team. In cities with a lower density of technical people than the valley, it's
very difficult to have _both_ a critical mass of highly-skilled people _and_
have those people all colocated together. You occasional see successful
startups like 37signals or Flickr that have smart people, but do so by having
them work remotely. And you see lots of startups that attempt to get lots of
local people, but sacrifice team quality as a result. You don't tend to hear
much from those. But it's when you combine smart people with critical mass
that you get something like Google.

------
benologist
How did you overcome the visa barrier? "Just do it" is sound enough advice if
you're American but you seem to be Canadian (and I'm Australian), you might as
well be saying Just do it: Flap your arms and fly.

~~~
timcederman
Come for three months at a time on the visa waiver program. You'll be
surprised at what you can get done in that time.

~~~
zaatar
OP: That is not necessarily good advice; consult with a competent immigration
attorney before you do this. Most startup-y work you would do while admitted
via the VWP would likely be immigration fraud - in direct violation of the
terms under which the alien was admitted in via the VWP. These immigration
violations incur bans, and could potentially break your dreams/career, etc.

~~~
timcederman
Depends on what work takes place. It's a great opportunity to network, and
write your own code.

Seems to be just fine for YCombinator too.

By the way, why is the knee-jerk reaction always to talk to a "competent
attorney" for stuff like visas? I'd like to think the HN community is a pretty
capable group of folks. The US government provides more than enough
information online to figure out what will work best for you depending on your
activities and to do it on your own. I was able to get my wife a green card
completely on my own without having to consult a "competent attorney". If you
are sufficiently competent, hiring a professional will save you research time
but not much else.

~~~
WildUtah
_By the way, why is the knee-jerk reaction always to talk to a "competent
attorney" for stuff like visas?_

There are dozens of guest worker visas for the United States.

Just applying for any visa to the USA is sufficient cause for the State
Department to deny you future visas for the rest of your life. That includes
completely sincere and honest applications. They just consider the application
for any visa to be evidence of your suitability for future entrance and they
keep track of tiny details forever. It doesn't matter if your life
circumstances have changed.

If you've seen _Brazil_ , you've met America's immigration bureaucracy.

A good immigration lawyer can reduce the trouble. You should never even apply
for a tourist visa to the USA without asking an immigration lawyer.

~~~
timcederman
I hope you're joking. Sure it's bureaucratic, but it's also straightforward.
Follow the rules and there are no issues. A lawyer for a tourist visa? Please.

------
ulrich
What about labour costs? I am currently working for a startup that has its
development office in eastern germany, with a management office near
Frankfurt. Although nobody explicitly said that, but the reason is simply that
wages are much lower over here.

On the other hand, afaik in Sillicon Valley salaries are very high. I'm just
wondering why nobody has brought that up so far.

~~~
CoachRufus87
As well as the high cost of living.

~~~
alnayyir
To be fair, most of Germany ain't cheap at all compared to some parts of the
US.

------
philcrissman
> But after some follow-up questions, I'd soon find out they don't even read
> TechCrunch ...

And here I thought not reading TechCrunch was a positive attribute.

------
bentlegen
I don't think anyone would disagree that it's more difficult to find startup-
oriented folks in Toronto, but you'll get better results if you look in the
right places.

<http://democamp.com>, <http://unspace.ca/innovation/pubnite>, to name a few.

------
WilliamLP
It's not the main point of his post, but would you really want both founders
to be heavily influenced by and involved in the Hacker News echo chamber? I
suspect some diversity of thinking might be more valuable.

------
JeffL
This is an interesting article for me because I'm currently in SV and am
contemplating moving away. My employees are all remote contractors, but it's
time we got an office and moved together and there's just no way I could have
them move here without at least doubling their salary because of the insane
cost of living here. I can get office space elsewhere for half the cost and
continue to pay my people what I do now if we get an office elsewhere, so
that's what we're looking at.

Isn't an important factor in success of a start up to be able to run lean?

------
duck
_By three months, I was working with a co-founder who had also moved here to
do a startup and not only reads Hacker News, but has so many karma points I
would know what to do with all of them._

It is funny how important he makes the karma factor sound - like that
automatically makes him a great co-founder.

~~~
mkramlich
I upvoted you so you'd have more karma in order to make you a better co-
founder in the future. In return, I expect equity.

------
ThomPete
There are two reasons to move to Silicon Valley. Serendipity and great tech
people.

If you already have the right business idea and great people there is no
reason what so ever to move.

~~~
ojbyrne
I think good VC companies is a better reason. Serendipity (by definition) can
be found anywhere, and great tech people are in many, many places, plus can
generally be found online.

~~~
ThomPete
Well that was at least my experience living there between 98 and 2002.

You don't need to have the VC right next to you. If your product/service is
good you will get access to them.

------
tmsh
In the words of a Russian dude:

 _Silicon Valley's greatest asset is communication. People discuss their work
not trifles. Russia would benefit from this kind of environment._

<http://twitter.com/KremlinRussia_E/status/16881191397>

------
nanospider
Yes, if you want to do a web 2.0 startup, then the valley is the place to be.
No doubt!

Although I then think of Flickr, Plenty of Fish, Club Penguin, etc. and
realize that this is not necessarily true.

How many VC-backed companies actually do well enough for the founders to get
rich? Not that many - you're better off bootstrapping and then flipping the
co. for a $ amount that is in the few million. And I think the Valley is the
worst place to bootstrap due to the high cost of living.

And don't get me started on the high cost of getting health insurance. You're
better off in Toronto.

------
petercooper
_So stop rationalizing, stop making excuses and just do it: move to Silicon
Valley._

I might, if the US would stop making "immigrants are destroying our country"
excuses for not having a sane immigration policy.

------
dannyr
Only in Silicon Valley where you go in a cafe and there's a good chance you'll
see other people working on their own startup, preparing to pitch to an
investor or actually pitching to an investor.

Also, a lot of people has an active Twitter account that establishes their
identity online.

People here just dream big. Some are delusional while some are actually on
their way to making it big.

------
rameshnid
Related reads- "Israel Nation" on how Israel built something similar to the
valley <http://www.startupnationbook.com/>

PGs essay- <http://www.paulgraham.com/america.html>

------
paulnelligan
You think Toronto is difficult for finding engaged people to work with?, try
Cork, Ireland!! ...

I have to get out there soon, even on a holiday visa ...

------
axod
Depends what sort of startup you want to do. Personally I would need a
multimillion dollar incentive to move there.

------
mkramlich
Here is even better advice to give (assuming you're not somewhere really
extreme like the North Pole, or a place without Internet access, etc.):

Just Do It: Where You Are

because it's faster, cheaper and more efficient. Because being in Silicon
Valley is not the critical ingredient, by a long shot.

------
zackattack
It's a lot easier to do something if you have social support and cultural
validation.

