
Tell HN: I want to teach you web development. In 8 weeks. For free (sort of) - kabuks
Want to become a web developer?
Are you based in the Bay Area? 
Can you take next February and March off?<p>I want to teach 6 people Ruby on Rails from scratch. Hands on. In person. 5 days a week, for 8 weeks. No computer science background required.<p>There is such high demand for good ruby devs right now. I'm willing to invest my time, money and energy upfront to get you in good enough shape to land a job as a Junior Rails Developer.<p>I will line up several companies that would be very interested in interviewing you. If you get a job with any of them, they'll pay me your tuition, so you get the training for free.<p>What do you think?
======
scarmig
You should make clearer: if someone doesn't get hired, who ends up holding the
bag? And how large a bag?

I'll forward this to someone I know.

~~~
kabuks
Agreed. Tuition is $6k, paid over 5 years ($100/month) if you don't get hired,
or don't want to get hired.

~~~
scarmig
Nice. Even for more risk-averse people, that's a pretty sweet opportunity.

------
wiscoDude
I discussed this very idea with @bendycode this past summer. Kudos to you
kicking it off and best of luck!

Here are some things we discussed are important for RoR devs to know. ymmv.

Effective pairing skills Mastery of the CLI Experience deploying to Heroku &
non-heroku hosts Git knowledge Spec tests Feature tests Haml/SASS Ajax
UX/Jquery Configuration Management Twitter Oauth Twitter API Facebook Oauth
Devise & User login/sessions File uploads and S3 storage DelayedJob Cron tasks
Pagination Caching Search Index (eg: Solr, Sphinx, etc) API consumption API
creation/support

~~~
swalkergibson
I personally would refrain from getting too far into Haml/SASS without first
creating a significant understanding of the underlying HTML and CSS. While
these tools are certainly effective, it seems like it would be foolhardy to
not start from the ground up as there are more projects built with straight
HTML/CSS. Especially given that a junior developer is likely to be maintaining
existing projects, not necessarily rolling your own.

------
moe
Sorry, I'm sure you have the best intentions but it's not possible to go in 8
weeks from "no computer science background required" to a rails junior.

~~~
mattdeboard
Not true at all. I went from "no computer science background" to a Django
junior hire in ~10 weeks of (admittedly quite intense) self-study. I'm now
employed as a mid-level programmer making very good money.

My anecdote is about as valid a characterization of whether it's possible in
general as your sweeping, baseless generalization.

~~~
mattdeboard
I got a relative lot of email on this (given that I normally get zero mail it
was a landslide) so I blogged responses to the questions I got.

<http://mattdeboard.net/2011/11/23/how-i-became-a-programmer/>

------
bigohms
Are the companies you working with going to actively short the comp of a
junior rails dev hired through this program (treating the 6K as a training
incentive) or will graduates theoretically get market rates (treating the 6K
as a hiring/headhunting bonus)?

~~~
kabuks
Great question. I would sincerely hope it's the latter.

Companies pay up to 25% of first year salary to head hunters (or as a referral
bonus), that's the budget we are after.

But you raise a very good point. We need to spell that out. Not sure how to
enforce it though. Any ideas?

~~~
hammock
Self-enforcing, assuming you have assembled a decent list of companies you are
recruiting for. You have created Joe, a new valuable job candidate, and if
there was just one company looking for a guy like Joe, then they would make
him eat the cost of tuition (reduce his comp), but since he is a great guy
that five or six companies are competing for, the offers they each give him
have to be competitive.

------
ntulip
This is awesome. Too bad I am on the east coast. Can you maybe video tape the
whole thing and make each day available online?

~~~
wallawe
I would be willing to pay for something like this.

~~~
bira
Mee too, I'm from Europe though.

Maybe the OP or somebody in the class could share what they do with as much
details as possible on a blog as they go?

Would be interesting.

~~~
Maven911
Me too and Im from the east coast...of Canada

~~~
chakala
Me too, but Im based in Shanghai, China

------
mapster
A lot of ambitious and hungry people ready to take Kabuks up on his deal. And
a lot of hackers skeptical of the results. Will he pull it off? Will those
code hungry bootstrappers make the commute, make the grade and get paid?
Kabuks, please keep HN in the loop on how this unfolds.

~~~
kabuks
I definitely will. Thanks for framing it as a challenge :) Keeps me motivated.

In truth though, I feel like the response here has been super helpful and
encouraging. And the skepticism healthy and respectful. I really appreciate
it.

~~~
mapster
Your Ted talk was a lot of fun. You seem like a great teacher. I envy those
who can learn programming from you. Wishing you success!

------
vijayr
Is there really that much demand for Rails devs, compared to iphone/android
etc? (genuine question, not trolling or anything)

~~~
angelbob
Honestly, it's also slightly easier to train a good junior Rails dev than a
good junior iPhone dev, given things like tracking allocated memory.

Not sure about Android.

~~~
2mur
Maybe not anymore with storyboarding and ARC in iOS5 ;)

------
ghurlman
So, you're a rails guy that decided to become a recruiter?

~~~
kabuks
Sort of.

I'm a rails guy, who really enjoys being around people. And I'm asking
companies to pay me to train devs, instead of find devs.

~~~
ghurlman
So a recruiter/trainer. I don't mean that to sound derisive - lord knows we
need lots more of both competent developers and recruiters.

Good luck to you!

------
whimsy
I have some modest experience. None the less, I'm interested. How much do you
hope to teach in eight weeks? What should a Junior Rails Developer be able to
do?

~~~
kabuks
Great questions.

A junior rails developer should have \- A good grasp of Ruby \- A good grasp
of the rails framework \- Experience pair programming \- An understanding of
the Agile Software Development, and Test Driven Development \- Basic HTML,
CSS, and Javascript skills \- Basic git (source control)

More importantly, they need to know how to reach out to the ruby community,
and have developed the skill of getting stuck and learning their way through
the stuckness.

~~~
michaelmcgee0
I am Mike McGee, the other co-founder of Code Academy
(<http://codeacademy.org>), and this description is pretty much exactly what
our students are learning now.

Our program is project-based and centered around pair programming with Ruby on
Rails as our web framework. It has been amazing to see the progress of our
students in the first 8 weeks of the 12-week program.

While we may have a different focus and a different business model, if you
want to talk to us about our experience it could be helpful in what you are
trying to do. You can contact me at mike at codeacademy dot org

------
wasd
I am UC Berkeley student studying mathematics. I would do, anything, to be
part of this six week session. I have been painstakingly trying to each myself
programming spending more than 3 hours every single day outside of my normal
schedule just trying to learn more programming. I learn quickly. I am highly
focused. I've started a profitable, successful company before. I have a
burning desire to learn this.

~~~
scarmig
Have you considered just applying to places? His setup works because people
are really, truly desperate for programmers. If you're a Cal math student
who's really into programming (even if you just started learning), you have
the intellectual chops to do it. You would get training just the same, except
you'd be getting paid for it at the same time.

I got my first job/internship involving programming with zero (literally 0.00
hours) programming experience. It's quite possible.

Of course, there's a lot to recommend learning from a good, dedicated teacher
instead of a couple stolen minutes everyday from another developer in a
production environment.

~~~
corey
Would you mind sharing some more about how you got your first programming job?

Did friends help you land the job, or did you just wow them in an interview?
Did you have an impressive portfolio or degree?

~~~
scarmig
Sure.

A friend helped land me the job in a corporate IT department (an advertised
but effectively fake-competitive position, bypassed HR), plus I have a strong
technical degree from a brand-name university. No portfolio or design
experience. I'd like to say I wowed them in an interview, but it was really
just sitting down in a bar on a Friday night, shooting the shit, and then
getting a programming book to study over the weekend so I could start on
Tuesday.

I was very lucky, of course, so it should be said that one size never fits
all. I also think it was totally inappropriate for me to get hired. But when
you're unemployed with dwindling savings and have been homeless for 2 months
straight, a $45k/year internship is something you jump for, no matter how
unqualified you are for it or how unfair it is that you're getting that
opportunity.

I sincerely apologize for anyone who's had to read the code I wrote back then.
Though, all things considered, it's probably not as bad as many of the
monstrosities I see regularly in my current position.

~~~
corey
Thanks for sharing.

------
laurenproctor
Sounds like an interesting approach. I like how you're thinking and I'd make
my way there for 8 weeks in a hot second. Would love to hear more.

~~~
kabuks
Thanks. Shoot me an email shereef@gmail.com

------
fabrygio
Sorry, just out of curiosity how much (in average) a Junior Rail Developer can
make in San Francisco or in New York. Thanks

~~~
kabuks
Depends on many factors. US-wide it's 75k on average. In SF and NY quite a bit
higher.

[http://www.simplyhired.com/a/salary/search/q-junior+ruby+on+...](http://www.simplyhired.com/a/salary/search/q-junior+ruby+on+rails+developer/l-San+Francisco%2C+CA)

[http://www.indeed.com/salary/q-Ruby-On-Rails-Web-
Developer-l...](http://www.indeed.com/salary/q-Ruby-On-Rails-Web-Developer-l-
San-Francisco-Bay-Area,-CA.html)

[http://www.quora.com/Ruby-on-Rails/What-is-the-salary-
range-...](http://www.quora.com/Ruby-on-Rails/What-is-the-salary-range-for-a-
junior-Rails-developer-not-located-in-NYC-or-SF)

------
mcs
Teaching somebody how to set up a rails app with some basic routes and
implementing some ajax calls and stuff, sure.

Will they know what's going on under the hood though?

Taking somebody from ground zero and teaching them enough to be able to debug
problems that the hires would need to know in order to be proficient, self
starting engineers.. I'm really skeptical about that being done in 8 weeks.

Most of the little tricks and crap I've learned over the years have been
through trial and error, and working on many different projects.

More specific examples: for loops not creating scope in javascript and
asynchronous calls introducing race conditions due to not understanding them.
Those aren't things that are in curriculums, though when trying to build some
features most people will encounter them.

~~~
sosayweall
I have had the chance to visit the classes at Code Academy in Chicago, I can
say that these students are learning way more than I ever expected.

No they will not be software craftsman in 12 weeks, but they will know how to
take their own idea and make it into a Rails app. Pretty powerful stuff for
not knowing how code on Day 1.

"Most of the little tricks and crap I've learned over the years have been
through trial and error, and working on many different projects."

This quote represents what the students are learning at Code Academy -
(<http://codeacademy.org>)

------
juaninfinitelop
Is it really possible to pick up RoR in 8 weeks to be useful to a company?

How is what you're offering any different than this site:
<http://teamtreehouse.com/>

Super honest question, I'm fairly new to the web dev world.

~~~
coreyhaines
With hands-on, 5 days a week, many hours a day, intense one-on-one mentoring,
I'm still skeptical.

~~~
juaninfinitelop
The main reason I asked, and why I'm a little skeptical, is I see a lot of
places (in the Los Angeles area) that require additional knowledge in a myriad
of other technologies; MySql, JavaScript, Html etc. along with Ruby/Rails or
Python/Django.

I apologize for sounding brash, but this sounds a little too good to be true,
almost DeVry ITtech ish...

------
kamikazi
I'm in India. And very interested. (Of-course I can't get a visa just for
this). Are you making any kind of off-line arrangement for those who can't
physically attend but still want in on a self-paced learning program? Count me
in if you do. I think you can have even greater success from this if you carve
out/expand this out of the usual valley-startup circles. There is a lot of
pent-up demand for great developers and robust continuous demand good teaching
programs out here. I might be even interested in collaborating/partnering if
you wish.(gratis/paid depending on level of involvement). Have you thought on
these lines?

------
parkern
I'm not in the Bay Area, but would be interested if this if it were online
based!

------
danneu
I graduate from Texas this semester, but I'm not interested in the large Gantt
chart consultancy firms and generic "business analyst" positions that roll
through the business school recruiting system.

I've been teaching myself Linux/Ruby/Rails for a while, but I've had to
scavenge time between school and work. I can make a basic forum in Rails, I
know basic Git (have a Github), I've become comfortable in Linux, and I can
deploy in Heroku/Linode box.

But I never had a mentor. After I graduate this month, I'd easily move to the
Bay Area for this (or a job). But I suppose I might be too "advanced" for the
offer.

~~~
swalkergibson
It does not seem to me that way at all. In fact, I think that you are exactly
the type of person that this program is perfect for. Honing your skills from
where you are is going to be loads easier than starting from scratch. Having a
rudimentary understanding of programming in this environment can only help
you.

------
kabuks
Folks, thanks for the great response. I just put up a site explaining the
process and containing the details of the training, and an application form

<http://devbootcamp.com>

------
dkokelley
It seems that there is significant interest in what you are offering. How do
you plan on selecting the six students (apprentices)?

I think the real value in what you are proposing is in the pathway to a job.
In fact, I would like to possibly take you up on this offer. I've done some
Ruby, Python, and server admin stuff, but not enough to make me "employable"
by my standards.

I'm currently in grad school, and I would be taking a semester off (which I am
fine with) if I took your offer. When more details become available please
contact me. My information is in my profile.

~~~
dmragone
Would love to hear about selection criteria - it does seem that you have
generated quite a bit of interest.

------
bennesvig
If there was a way to do this from Minnesota, I might be interested.

~~~
palyekar
There's One more here, again from Minnesota interested in this course.

~~~
nimblegorilla
I've been doing rails work in the Twin Cities for 5 years. If either of you
are interested in something locally let me know.

------
joebadmo
Sounds like an amazing opportunity! If you were in Portland, I'd seriously
consider quitting my job to dive in.

I'm a non-programmer slowly trying to teach myself in my off time, but it's
slow, lonely, hard-to-stay-motivated going. I've contacted a few local web dev
companies to try to come in as an unpaid intern to at least try to get into a
more conducive environment, but haven't had much luck.

Please keep us updated on how this goes! And if anyone knows of a similar
opportunity in Portland, I'd love to hear about it.

~~~
petermarks
Regarding learning Ruby in Portland, make it out to a PDX Ruby Brigade meeting
if you haven't already. They have meetings focused on learning Ruby:
<http://calagator.org/events/1250461371>

~~~
joebadmo
I have no preference for Ruby in particular (I've been learning Python), but
that definitely looks like it's worth checking out. Thanks!

------
MrSlovenian
I'm 35 years old, married with 4 kids, in the middle of a career change, and
teaching myself programming. If this, or anything like Code Academy, were
available in the Indianapolis area, I'd be ALL over it. I have a Master's
degree in another discipline, I learn fast, and am very motivated, looking to
put my creativity and drive towards doing good in the world through
programming. If there was an option for doing something online, I'd consider
that as well.

------
blario
Is demand for Rails developers this high?

There's this much of a shortage that there's no available talent to employ?

This much of a shortage to add a $6,0000 premium on top of a brand new
developer?

------
helen842000
I'm another interested participant however I'm not in the US.

If anyone would consider a similar arrangement suitable for remote
participants I'd take them up on the offer. I think this would have huge
demand.

Personally I don't mind if it was RoR or Python - whatever. Having someone
experienced to answer my questions would make for greatly accelerated
learning.

If anyone has an interest in putting something similar together please mail
me. I'm my username on gmail.com

------
cantbecool
Even though I know I know a bit of Ruby and Rails, I'd love to take your
course. Unfortunately, I live in Philadelphia, and I've been looking for
Junior Rails Developer job for the past 5 months and haven't even got offered
an interview. I'm considering putting on my resume willing to work for
peanuts, because I'm passionate about working in a startup environment.

------
eLobato
Just wondering, what's your experience besides Classparrot? It's great but I'd
like to see more before getting in a bigger commitment.

~~~
kabuks
Ofcourse. I built <http://bettermeans.com> Worked for MS for 4 years as lead
dev. Taught workshops in high schools around the country for 4 years. I also
really enjoy public speaking: [http://tedxtalks.ted.com/video/TEDxSF-Shereef-
Bishay-Open-En...](http://tedxtalks.ted.com/video/TEDxSF-Shereef-Bishay-Open-
Ente)

------
jvanderwal
I'm very interested. One question: Do you have some place to put people up in,
or would we be responsible for lodging, food, etc?

------
dmragone
This sounds great, and exactly what I'm looking for. I'm currently in the Bay
Area doing analytics at a services company and want to transition more into
tech. I started teaching myself Python a few weeks ago, but would love a crash
course in Ruby.

If there's still room, I'd love to be in this. I'll email you my contact info.

------
gsivil
What are all these green accounts that seem to be so excited about the "Code
Academy"? This is getting suspicious

~~~
probitymike
I think they are students of the program who just got on Hacker News. They are
baby programmers trying to get into the community, let them grow! They can
also be a little feisty and protective.

------
zallarak
This is awesome. I'd take you up on this. I've worked at a YC startup as a
first non-tech employee and have self taught myself a good amount of
Python/Django/HTML/CSS. If there's any add'tl info you need to make your
decision, feel free to contact. Email is zain.allarakhia@gmail.com

------
kliao
Sounds interesting. How much is tuition? What are the companies that will
reimburse tuition?

~~~
kabuks
Tuition will be 6k paid over 5 years ($100/month)

I haven't asked the companies' permission to publicize yet. Sending them
emails now, and will get right back to you once I get their ok.

------
tryitnow
Great idea. We need a lot more people like you. I am assuming (and hoping)
this is just a trial run for bigger and better things you have planned.
There's definitely a need for this.

You're the solution to our unemployment problem. Best of luck.

------
ad80
Great initiative! I reckon the demand will boost shortly...

Where do you want to get to after 8 weeks? Would the "students" be ready to
take junior RoR jobs straight after 8 weeks in your vision OR do you expect it
will take longer?

~~~
kabuks
Thanks.

The goal is to have people job-ready after 8 weeks. A big part of the program
will be focussed on learning how to learn. And students will be learning and
building software in an environment very similar to a work environment.

------
craiglittle
This sounds awesome.

I'm interested, in the Bay Area, and ready to quit my job, if necessary, to
make it happen. I shot you an email this afternoon. Any idea when you'll
decide if you're going to move forward?

------
hotspur
This is a legitimate niche just begging to be filled.

Consider me very interested - based in NY but certainly willing and able to go
out the Bay Area. My contact info is in my profile, and I'll email you.

------
daimyoyo
I'm VERY interested in this. Please email me when you have everything set up.
Either at my email here or admin at 1every dot com. Thanks. I look forward to
seeing you in February.

~~~
andre3k1
This. I too am VERY interested. My email is andre at garrigo dot net. Please
send me any info that I may need to proceed with this. I already live in SF
and work for a tech startup, but I am always interested in learning.

I look forward to hearing from you.

------
wcdolphin
Being a web developer takes more than simply 'knowing RoR'. Developing is less
about the code and more about the solutions you express through your code, as
I am sure you know.

------
bravo1
Well, I am not so sure about a formal course like this. I am on the peninsula
learning Ruby and Rails. If anyone would like to meet some time casually send
me a message.

------
Jeng
I would jump at the chance if it was available in Austin.

How many hours a day?

~~~
kabuks
The program is 5 days a week, 8 hours a day. Why not come the bay for a couple
of months?

------
CEtch
This sounds pretty awesome! I'm already a junior .Net mvc developer, but I'm
learning Rails to build my new startup. I would be interested in
attending/helping.

------
elechi
Is this a test to see if it's possible to make the programmers companies are
looking for instead of just hiring programmers, or a test for your teaching
skills?

~~~
kabuks
It's an attempt to find 6 people who would take 2 months of their lives to
learn Ruby on Rails. If anything is being tested, it's interest in the
program.

------
smileycynic
I'm interested! How many/what hours/day would this be, and when would it
start? -Shannon shannon at starrynightcoaching dot com.

------
Blocks8
Maybe HR departments should become 'teach to code' classrooms. The head-hunter
fee would be a comparable sum for an 8 week class.

------
doktrin
This sounds like an amazing opportunity. If it were even remotely feasible,
I'd consider relocating from DC just for this class.

------
br41n
If only i'd be in US :|

Do you think you could find a way for people outside Bay Area too?

Sincerely i would pay (not really 6k though) for something similar.

------
ApolloRising
This may be something you could perhaps use a video broadcasting service and
see how much reach you can get.

------
lowglow
Sounds great. I have a previous background in programming, so is there some
"accelerated" route I can take?

~~~
kabuks
A lot of the learning will be self-paced. So not everybody needs to be going
at the same speed, and on the same page. I'm designing the program to make
sure that if you have programming background, you won't be bored.

------
Heated
I shall join you and learn what you have to teach me!

Give me the dates, times, and place you will be teaching immediately!

------
jumar
I'll take you up on this offer; I'll do it. My contact info is in my profile,
if this goes forward.

~~~
kabuks
jumar, you're contact info is not in your profile. My email is
shereef@gmail.com

~~~
jumar
I apologize, I hadn't updated my profile at that time; I've since updated it
and emailed you.

------
programzeta
I'm definitely interested in this opportunity - my e-mail address in my
profile.

------
md1515
Great offer. I can't take you up on it, unfortunately, but that is a great
idea!

~~~
kabuks
Thanks. Can you give me some insight into what stands in your way? The time
commitment? The tuition? Lack of interest? Just looking for as much feedback
as I can get.

~~~
vijayr
I'd love to do it too, but can't, for two reasons - first, I am in NY, and
second, it would not be possible to take that much time off of my day job.

If it is web based, or weekends, then I'd be very interested.

------
gburt
I speak fluent PHP but would love to learn RoR. I'm not in the US either
though.

------
ajaymehta
Sounds awesome. I wish you luck, please keep me in the loop! (email in
profile)

------
textech
Anyway you can do it online? I'm here in north Texas and very interested.

------
jt11508
Very interesting approach, hope you post a follow-up to this experiment.

------
axelav
very cool idea. anyone considered doing this on the east coast?

------
yamilg
I'm not in the US, is there any way to take the deal?

------
kellyreid
I think I wish I lived in the Bay Area.

------
jhacks
I'd probably do this if it were in NY.

------
rudeegraap
Can I pay you to attend?

~~~
kabuks
Sure. shereef@gmail.com

------
mayatron
Sounds exciting.

~~~
bgbluesky
If you don't have enough peeps yet. I'd be available! Ping me:
joo.kno.sam@gmail.com.

------
viggity
this is a brilliant idea, kudos to you

------
KleinmanB
Do it in LA

------
c4urself
sounds great!

------
pitdesi
This is an interesting business model. I like it, but am interested to see how
you will commit people to paying you $100/month for the next 5 years unless
structuring it as a loan (which has it's own headaches)

For those interested in something similar, my understanding is that Code
Academy (Different than YC startup codecademy) <http://codeacademy.org> in
Chicago is phenomenal. I met a bunch of their students at the HN meetup in
Chicago last week and they were raving about it. From what I understand, the
35 folks in their current batch are going to have multiple job offers, and DHH
is a huge supporter, so much so that he's taught a class.

~~~
coreyhaines
With the rise and popularity of 'teach to code' services, it remains to be
seen which model works best. Taking a person from 0 (or very, very little)
knowledge and experience to the point where they can be at all effective as a
software developer is difficult. Expecting a matter of weeks to turn someone
such as this into hireable material is a dangerous attitude to have. I'm very
curious to see the graduates of these courses and even more curious to see how
their skills are represented to possible hiring companies.

~~~
nealsales
It's all about what the needs and expectations of the individual is - and
properly setting them. As one of the founders of <http://codeacademy.org> I
can say first-hand that it is possible to get people to a point where they are
happy with their progress. But rather than asserting - our students' own
perspectives is the actual evidence: <http://codeacademy.org/culture>

If anyone would like to know more about our experience starting and running
this program - I'd love to help you however I can. It's great that there are
so many people getting passionate about the issue of educating more people on
how to solve problems through software.

Drop me a line at neal at codeacademy dot org.

~~~
ZenBrent
Love codecademy Neal. Just finished the initial rollout of the tool and can't
wait for the next programs.

~~~
sosayweall
You have to be kidding me. How hard is it to distinguish Code Academy from
codecademy in Neal's comment? Neal just referenced Code Academy multiple times
in this comment, but you put codecademy?

Not only that, but the two companies couldn't be anymore different. If you
truly love what Neal is doing, you would know that you have not completed the
program, because that would mean that you are a student in Chicago who is
currently 8 weeks through the Code Academy program.

We can disagree about what approach is the best to take when teaching people
how to code, but we can at get the names of companies and what they do right.

------
kunwar_isro
nice busuness

