
The Chan Zuckerberg Initiative makes its first investment - crufo
http://www.cnet.com/news/mark-zuckerberg-45b-initiative-makes-investment-andela-facebook/
======
apsec112
If Facebook doesn't try to hire more black developers, this proves they're
evil, because they must be racists. If they do try to hire more black
developers, this also proves they're evil, because now they're exploiting
black people to drive down labor costs. Likewise, if Zuckerberg doesn't donate
to charity, he is evil because he's selfishly hoarding his wealth; if he does
donate, he's evil because he's trying to exploit the underprivileged to
enhance his own prestige.

"Friedrich Spee von Langenfeld, a priest who heard the confessions of
condemned witches, wrote in 1631 the Cautio Criminalis ('prudence in criminal
cases') in which he bitingly described the decision tree for condemning
accused witches. If the witch had led an evil and improper life, she was
guilty; if she had led a good and proper life, this too was a proof, for
witches dissemble and try to appear especially virtuous. After the woman was
put in prison: if she was afraid, this proved her guilt; if she was not
afraid, this proved her guilt, for witches characteristically pretend
innocence and wear a bold front. Or on hearing of a denunciation of witchcraft
against her, she might seek flight or remain; if she ran, that proved her
guilt; if she remained, the devil had detained her so she could not get away."

~~~
smt88
> _they 're exploiting black people to drive down labor costs_

> _he 's evil because he's trying to exploit the underprivileged to enhance
> his own prestige_

These are straw men. Serious people aren't criticizing him for things like
this. Almost 100% of publicly-known charity is, to some extent, designed to
enhance prestige.

As far as "exploiting" black people to drive down labor costs, it's not like
they're Chinese factory workers ruining their health. They'd just be coding.
There's some probable protectionist criticism related to hiring Africans
instead of Americans, but that happens regardless of the wages that foreigners
are being paid.

~~~
wodenokoto
As of right now, the second highest top comment is the "exploiting black
people" thing.

I think the parent did well in exposing how people seemingly want to make a
witch out of Zuckerberg no matter what he does.

~~~
ucaetano
Sadly Zuckerberg himself seems to provide plenty of ammunition for those
claims:

\- Aggressive disregard of privacy on FB

\- Using deception and dirty tactics to make the FB app run continuously on
the background of your phone

\- Manipulating timeline results

\- Manipulating trending topics

\- Naming a for-profit arm of the company ".org"

\- Publicly attacking net neutrality activists by buying gigantic ads across
India

\- Calling the Brazilian people to protest in front of the Congress

\- Whitewashing his personal for-profit investment company as a "initiative"

Regardless of whether he is or not bad or whatever, he appears extremely
arrogant when you take in account some of the actions above, so it is quite
understandable that people see him that way. Oh, and the movie.

PS: Some of the actions above are not personally his, but are from the company
which he controls completely, so it is quite understandable that people
attribute it to him.

~~~
smt88
I don't care much about Zuckerberg either way, but I'm interested in
discussing some of these points in more detail.

> _Using deception and dirty tactics to make the FB app run continuously on
> the background of your phone_

Can you provide a link that explains this in more detail?

> _Manipulating timeline results_

I actually see this as a feature. Somehow Facebook has kept time-on-site and
MAU metrics very, very high, so the timeline must be working well for most
people.

You can also configure it to a surprisingly granular degree.

> _Manipulating trending topics_

There was no anti-conservative bias, and any other manipulation could be
construed as curation or editing. I hid trending topics with a CSS rule, but
if I were using it, I would want it to be curated and edited. I see this as a
potential feature if done right.

Anyway, no one is forced to get their news from trending topics.

> _Naming a for-profit arm of the company ".org"_

.org domains aren't required to be used for non-profits, and the Chan
Zuckerberg initiative could certainly be considered a charity.

In the US, non-profit status is a tax designation and has no bearing on how
beneficial an organization is. In fact, I'm glad that it's _not_ a non-profit,
because it means the money comes from Zuckerberg and not from tax-payers.

> _Publicly attacking net neutrality activists by buying gigantic ads across
> India_

Links? I know Facebook was heavily criticized for attempting to undermine net
neutrality in India, but I've never seen anything about them attacking
activists directly via ads.

(Not that it matters, but it's pretty ironic that an ad company would buy ads
in the physical world...)

> _Calling the Brazilian people to protest in front of the Congress_

This is very reasonable and actually positive (even if it did directly involve
his company). Are you for or against internet/communication freedom? The
Brazilian people absolutely should have protested the WhatsApp ban, especially
because the reasoning for it wasn't made public.

WhatsApp is one of the few apps with excellent encryption, as well.

> _Whitewashing his personal for-profit investment company as a "initiative"_

Again, for-profit vs. non-profit is a tax designation. The US is structured to
allow people to profit from doing good things. Is there a reason people
shouldn't benefit from their humanitarian efforts? Should all non-profit
employees just be volunteers, in that case?

I can understand taking issue with capitalism and the idea that good deeds
must be incentivized with money, but I can't understand taking issue with
Zuckerberg operating within a system set up by others.

> _he appears extremely arrogant when you take in account some of the actions
> above, so it is quite understandable that people see him that way_

Yeah, but so does Elon Musk a lot of the time, and people worship him. Off the
top of my head, Paul Graham, Marc Andreessen, and Jeff Bezos also regularly
come off as incredibly arrogant (more arrogant than Zuckerberg, in my view). I
think that arrogance might be a pre-requisite for being wildly successful in
the US startup world: you have to believe that you are special and will do
something that 99% of others fail at.

> _Oh, and the movie._

Well, it was fiction...

~~~
ucaetano
I'm sorry, I don't think I made myself clear enough: I'm not accusing him of
anything, just listing reasons WHY people would think that way.

You might disagree with the reasons and defend him endlessly, that still
doesn't mean the reasons don't exist.

Some sources: [http://boingboing.net/2015/12/27/facebooks-fuddy-full-
page-a...](http://boingboing.net/2015/12/27/facebooks-fuddy-full-page-a.html)
[http://www.zdnet.com/article/insane-iphone-battery-drain-
dis...](http://www.zdnet.com/article/insane-iphone-battery-drain-disable-
facebook-apps-location-services/)

Also, we're not talking about the domain, we're talking about the name of the
subsidiary: it's called "internet.org".

And non-profit isn't just about taxes. You can't take money out of a non-
profit into your own pocket. Got it?

Oh, and people don't like when owners of foreign companies try to use them as
fodder cannon to promote their own objectives, as in Brazil, no matter what's
the upside.

And you don't see Elon Musk using FUD against activists, or doing any of the
above.

About the movie, you're still not understanding my post. It doesn't matter if
it was fiction or not, people still believe it.

------
dsacco
Since the article is very light on real details or reporting, I'll post a bit
from the original WSJ article.

Chan Zuckerberg is specifically leading a $24M _Series B_ Round in Andela.

Andela was founded in 2014 and has about 200 developers currently studying
with them. There are about 50 mentors working to teach those developers full-
time. It has rejected almost all of the applicants; about 40,000 people
applied, which means only about 0.5% are actually accepted to study. Those who
are accepted to study become "Andela fellows" and learn web and mobile
development over four years.

According to Andela, they'd like to train 100,000 developers over the next ten
years. They are hopeful they can do this with the African population, 60% of
which consists of younger people under the age of 25, many of whom are
unemployed or underemployed. Andela's clients pay "about half the annual
salary for entry-level developers in major U.S. tech markets." With no
specific numbers to go on, it's hard to estimate that. Maybe $50k - $60k?
Apparently Microsoft is a client company.

It appears Andela will mostly use this cash infusion to expand into new
African companies and scale up.

Could we kill this story or change the URL to the much better WSJ article? I
don't understand why this is on the front page. The article has almost no
detail or substance. As it stands, it's just flamebait that's getting the
usual "Zuckerberg is evil" vitriol. I've never seen a messageboard triggered
more easily than HN is when his name or company is brought up.

I'd also like to propose to the HN community that we be a bit more accepting
of paywall URLs, because the difference between this CNET, ad-ridden article
and the WSJ article (and the possible discussion opportunity around each) is
huge.

------
zrail
Apparently obligatory: Chan Zuckerberg Initiative is not a non-profit. It's a
family office that wraps itself in a cloak of philanthropy. It's not a
charity, it's a for-profit business.

Maybe at some point it will grow a 501c3 arm but thus far it has not.

------
abpavel
When did VC became philantropy?

------
jdpigeon
"What inspires me is teaching African refugees how to program javascript"

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yFhR1fKWG0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yFhR1fKWG0)

------
bhudman
Is Andela a 501c3 company? Trying to understand the motivations for these
foundations to give money away Andela is a for profit company

~~~
blackbagboys
The Chan Zuckerberg Initiative is also a for profit company.

~~~
flopto
I thought you were joking, but apparently I haven't been following this. The
Chan Zuckerberg Initiative is an LLC with no association to any 501c3.

------
ucaetano
"The publication reports that the Initiative is leading a $24 million funding
round for the New York-based start up, in which GV, formerly known as Google
Ventures, is also involved."

So, what's the difference between it and other VC companies, besides being
controlled by a single person?

------
nxzero
It's sad that if some attempt to do good, often it's not good enough, but if
they do nothing, it's okay.

It's unlikely I ever agree with how other people try to do good, but I am
grateful that they try.

Go some go good; today!

~~~
Kristine1975
_> Go some go good; today!_

I do: I pay my taxes instead of trying to avoid them like Facebook does.

~~~
imgabe
You don't use any of the deductions or credits you qualify for? How noble.

------
googletazer
Zuck's initiative tries to expand the labor pool to reduce Zuck's costs. He's
a good guy, but having self serving investments is not what those initiatives
are for.

------
codecamper
Ah yes. The world really needs more & more developers. This will solve all our
problems.

Especially if the problems you have is maintaining your grip over people's
digital lives.

~~~
miguelrochefort
This is incorrect. 99% of code is useless and should never have been written.

~~~
Kristine1975
I think codecamper was being sarcastic :-)

------
pmyjavec
Things that make you go hmmm

------
clydethefrog
Let them eat code.

------
blackbagboys
I suppose I can't help but admire the chutzpah of cloaking a tax deductible
scheme to drive down your labor costs as a noble quest to "advance human
potential".

Now where did I put my black and red flags...

~~~
adwf
Whether you believe he is doing a good thing because it's a good thing, or
just because he wants to be _seen doing_ a good thing, it doesn't change the
fact that the good thing is being done.

Tax deductibility does indeed incentivise charitable giving, possibly for
selfish reasons. But the person on the recieving end of
education/healthcare/whatever, doesn't really care do they? The effect is
what's important, not the motivation.

~~~
blackbagboys
I don't believe that he is making this investment for either of those reasons.
I believe he is making it because developing additional pools of low-cost
contract labor is in the long term excellent for his business. Additionally,
Andela will capture some of the delta between the cost of African and the cost
of Indian or American developers, some of which will in turn be returned to
the Initiative to finance future forays into making the world safe for
oligopoly.

I am sure that some localized Good Things will occur as a byproduct of this
arbitrage, but let's not pretend for a second that "advancing human potential"
and "promoting equality" are actually the metrics by which the success of this
enterprise is being judged.

~~~
bko
> low-cost contract labor

Phrases like that ring to me to describe a two class of people: a "low cost"
tier, and a "normal cost" tier. To me this has obvious racist overtones as
"low-cost" is often followed by [nationality]. If someone is willing to work
harder, she should get the job, but somehow if that same person is willing to
work as hard for less money, she is unworthy? Sure the company benefits from a
spread between what a person makes and what they contribute, but they do so
already. Eventually if that spread becomes too large, other companies will
exploit this arbitrage and start new businesses and bid up the employees
compensation. You are free to do so as well assuming you live in a free
capitalist society.

~~~
Sacho
They're willing to work for less because in their local economy, the pay is
actually good to great.

This destabilizes the local economy, creating gentrified districts or entire
cities(See: SF) where only the privileged laborers for a foreign economy can
afford to live. It will also lead to a sharp increase in luxury good prices
due to new demand, driving the bar for middle-class living out of reach for
local workers. The skilled workers hired by the foreign economy become a brain
drain - the government has invested resources into their education, but no one
in the local economy can afford them, thus they'll never create goods for it
to improve local technology levels.

Helping people is hard.

~~~
bko
> This destabilizes the local economy, creating gentrified districts or entire
> cities(See: SF)

So paying people more and giving them jobs destabilizes the local economy
because these people now have money and spend more on housing and other items?
And if they're paid less, they're being exploited?

> The skilled workers hired by the foreign economy become a brain drain - the
> government has invested resources into their education, but no one in the
> local economy can afford them, thus they'll never create goods for it to
> improve local technology levels.

Doesn't the government prefer rich denizens and a higher tax base? Isn't this
how education is funded and higher salaries and tax base partially the point
of investing in education?

> but no one in the local economy can afford them, thus they'll never create
> goods for it to improve local technology levels.

Aren't digital good mostly global in nature? Don't poor countries benefit from
Facebook/Google/Apple/etc?

~~~
Sacho
> So paying people more and giving them jobs destabilizes the local economy
> because these people now have money and spend more on housing and other
> items? And if they're paid less, they're being exploited?

You're not paying all people more, just some of them. The rest get to enjoy
rising prices for good housing and luxuries that they won't be able to afford
with their local pay.

> Doesn't the government prefer rich denizens and a higher tax base? Isn't
> this how education is funded and higher salaries and tax base partially the
> point of investing in education?

Unless you're planning to turn all Nigerians and Kenyans into software
developers, this isn't really the case. Just higher taxes may pay for the
education the government invested in you, but the investment is made with a
hope that you would do more than break even. Without skilled technological
leaders driving progress forward(because they're busy driving someone else's
progress forward), you'll stagnate, which means the costs of global goods gets
worse for your population,

> Aren't digital good mostly global in nature? Don't poor countries benefit
> from Facebook/Google/Apple/etc?

Yes - which is why most poor countries can't afford them.

~~~
bko
> You're not paying all people more, just some of them. The rest get to enjoy
> rising prices for good housing and luxuries that they won't be able to
> afford with their local pay.

Correct, gains are never distributed equally. This has been tried and failed.
You can keep everyone poor or allow some to accumulate wealth.

In regards to modern technology not benefiting poor countries, please note
that more people in Africa have a mobile phone than access to electricity [0].
Across the seven countries surveyed, roughly two-thirds or more say they own a
cell phone. Ownership is especially high in South Africa and Nigeria, where
about nine-in-ten have a cell phone [1]. I think you're understating the
positive impact western technology is having on transforming the lives of poor
Africans.

[0] [http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/04/tech/mobile/africa-mobile-
opin...](http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/04/tech/mobile/africa-mobile-opinion/)

[1] [http://www.pewglobal.org/2015/04/15/cell-phones-in-africa-
co...](http://www.pewglobal.org/2015/04/15/cell-phones-in-africa-
communication-lifeline/)

~~~
MrsPeaches
More people have access to mobile phones than running water, basic drainage or
paves roads. Mobile phone penetration in Africa now stands at 93% [1]

I would however question the extent this is driven by Western innovation
though. I would argue that this driven primarily through the ability of the
Chinese to make technology for a significantly lower cost.

[1] [http://edition.cnn.com/2016/01/19/africa/africa-
afrobaromete...](http://edition.cnn.com/2016/01/19/africa/africa-
afrobarometer-infrastructure-report/)

