
US bars friends over Twitter joke - ColinWright
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4095372/Twitter-news-US-bars-friends-over-Twitter-joke.html
======
corin_
Have no more fear, your country is safe from all terrorists who tweet about
their plans.

Truthfully, I wouldn't have expected this from America, they're the kind of
jokes I could imagine myself making on Twitter, but will be careful not to
before future trips there..

This is pretty much what I think of when going to China, and what makes me
specially careful not to say anything the Chinese could take as a threat. Heh,
last time I went we were doing some IPTV streaming from an event, and where
given a list of words which, if anyone said on air, would have us all deported
within hours.

edit: To people complaining about The Sun - yes, it's a crappy rag, but this
is basically a story that no news outlet would hear of _unless_ the people
involved sold/gave their story, and there's no reason they wouldn't go to The
Sun, where they could reasonably expect to get a little more $$$ than if they
went to the BBC.

~~~
nextparadigms
US is done as the "land of the free". It's still very hard for many people to
believe it, but it's true. I mean it's 47th place in the world for freedom of
press now - 47th! That's far from the beacon of freedom US used to be.

Whenever I see the heavily armed and militarized police in US and how they
react to protesters, it's like I'm watching news about Russia or something.

~~~
beedogs
I left the country in 2008, and I'm wondering if I'll ever go back. It's only
gotten worse since I've been gone. It's almost to the point where I'm not even
sure I want to _visit_ any time soon.

~~~
nkoren
Same story here. Left in 2007, and no longer have any desire to return. My
last visit, in 2010, left quite a bad taste in my mouth, with the creeping
totalitarianism on display at the airports in particular. Welcome to America:
don't forget that WE ARE ALWAYS WATCHING YOU.

What's especially depressing is that the commitment to paranoia and the
dismantling of due process, civil rights, etc., is 100% bipartisan; there are
no serious political voices taking a stand against it. Bush was of course bad;
Obama -- my last great hope -- has extended and amplified everything that Bush
did. And Obama's opponents are essentially unified in their position that
Obama's chief failure has been to not dismantle due process and civil rights
_quickly enough_. At this point, I think that Obama is probably still the
lesser evil, but that's too damned evil for me to vote for.

I don't see any prospects for this reversing itself. Carry this trend out
another decade or two, and it means the end of the American republic. There's
nothing extraordinary about this thought: over long enough timeframes, great
nations collapse _all the time_ , and this is more or less the blueprint they
follow when they do it: increasing paranoia about being beset by enemies both
external and domestic; dismantling of internal political apparatus and
centralisation of political power with a single individual; increasing
inability to balance a budget, tolerate dissent, maintain infrastructure, etc.
I fear that the present era will be remembered alongside Rome in the late 4th
century, Spain in the early 1930s, etc.

I hope I'm wrong, and that those who stay can somehow turn it around. But at
this point I'm glad I left.

~~~
cookiecaper
Don't forget Ron Paul as one of Obama's serious opponents that still advocates
liberty.

~~~
nkoren
Eh, I'm not sure I'd call him "serious". He's definitely pretty good on some
civil liberty issues. Rather less so if you happen to be female, non-white, or
gay. Even if that wasn't the case, his understanding of economics is
sufficiently loony as to exclude him from serious consideration, at least in
my view.

In any case, a belief in civil liberties shouldn't even be a discrete
political _position_ ; it should be the bedrock on which all political
positions are founded. When one candidate defines themselves as "pro-liberty"
-- as opposed to all those other guys -- the game is already lost. Should they
win power, they'll need to claim extraordinary powers in order to reinstate
"liberty" -- undermining democratic institutions in the process, and thus the
actual mechanisms that guarantee liberty.

In fact this is more or less exactly what happened with both Bush and Obama,
and I'm pretty sure that the same thing would happen with Paul. His message
is: "I will give you liberty" -- _not_ "I will ensure that the institutional
checks and balances which act as guarantors of liberty are maintained and
reinforced". In fact he rarely shows anything other than contempt for those
institutions. Therefore I do not believe he would be a friend of liberty.

~~~
13rules
"Rather less so if you happen to be female, non-white, or gay."

[citation needed]

You are way off base on this one and have nothing to back this up. Ron Paul
has consistently been for _every_ American. He is for repealing Roe v. Wade
and allowing states to decide on abortion rights, he has been outspoken on the
bias of prison sentences and the death penalty on minorities, and is against a
federal mandate on marriage. Those positions are exactly contrarian to the
ones you are attempting to assign to him.

I'm not sure why you think his understanding of economics is "loony" as he is
the ONLY member of congress that predicted the housing collapse YEARS before
it happened (<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnuoHx9BINc>)

Neither Bush nor Obama ever championed liberty. Ron Paul is a completely
different animal. He isn't promising to GIVE you anything — he's promising to
reduce government to get OUT of your life. Big difference.

~~~
ahrens
Without knowing much about Ron Paul, I was shocked to see you call Paul for
females by repealing Roe vs Wade! Abortion should always be a womans own
choice, not something the government should meddle with.

~~~
13rules
I see your point. Paul is against abortion, but because of his strong
constitutional stance is for states rights >>> federal mandates.

Whether abortion should be legal or illegal is another discussion I guess.

------
buro9
Those guys are screwed now.

Refusal of access means that they'll never get in on the visa waiver program
and any employment in the future that might be with a multi-national will be
limited by their ability to travel. They just won't be able to enter the USA
without going through an arduously long process every time.

I've been telling my friends for the longest time to moderate everything that
they say on the internet, in private and in public. Little of it will be used
in your favour, and all of it can and will be used against you.

It's not far from the way you would have to think if you were living under the
Stasi. You'd have to think about how your public actions could be perceived,
and you'd have to consider whether you trust any present parties for private
actions.

The biggest difference between people today and people under the Stasi is the
awareness of it. Those under the Stasi knew to change their actions.

The only thing to which these two are guilty of, is a failure to understand
that this is not the world they thought it was.

~~~
mintplant
Obligatory XKCD: <http://xkcd.com/137/>

~~~
buro9
Someone downvoted you, so have an upvote.

I wholeheartedly agree with that XKCD comic. However the thing is... speaking
openly and care free, accepting the consequences of your actions into the
future.... those are things that you need to know you're doing.

That is: If you put your foot in it because you hold beliefs about the freedom
of expression, then you do so knowingly. If you put your foot in it because
you believe the world to be innocent, then you pay the price
disproportionately.

I just don't think people should be innocent about the world around them and
how it (their government, big business, everything) works.

This debate brings to mind this:
[http://lesswrong.com/lw/372/defecting_by_accident_a_flaw_com...](http://lesswrong.com/lw/372/defecting_by_accident_a_flaw_common_to_analytical/)

If we don't know we're constantly being interrogated, then how can we prevent
ourselves from defecting by accident?

~~~
Splines
_This debate brings to mind
this:[http://lesswrong.com/lw/372/defecting_by_accident_a_flaw_com...](http://lesswrong.com/lw/372/defecting_by_accident_a_flaw_com...*)

Interesting read, thanks for that.

Brings to mind forum flamewars and the like. I wonder how a community would
evolve if the default post were a private reply, instead of a public one, or
if public replies were throttled in some manner?

Also, sometimes I feel that working in a stack-ranked group encourages
defecting behaviour.

------
drats
Has anyone done a study of how much this is damaging the tourism industry in
the USA? I have 1001 places I want to go, but all those in the USA shifted
down a lot lower on the list after they started a lot of the airport
security/TSA measures.

Airport security stuff annoys me to no end in other places too because half of
them, or more than half, seem to literally be standing around doing nothing
and the other half do their jobs rudely.

~~~
GFischer
I've actively avoided the U.S. even though I still want to go, because of
those same issues.

I even was a few meters from the U.S. (Niagara Falls) and avoided going
because of all the visa complications and expenses plus the security measures
(if it had been a given I'd be accepted I would have gone, but they don't like
young unattached people saying they want to do "tourism", they expect we'll
want to stay).

~~~
madflo
French national who visited Canada a few months ago here. I crossed the US/CA
border with only a small backpack ( I left my luggage at the bus station ) and
the US border agents after the Rainbow Bridge where fun and welcoming.

It wasn't the case in SFO, after a 12 hours flight from Paris, the agent was
OK but far from welcoming.

~~~
GFischer
As a Uruguay national, I can't "just cross".

I have to apply for a visa, and at the time there was a significant chance of
it being denied - and forget about being refunded, and chances of it being
accepted after re-applying drop dramatically. So it isn't worth it.

I could probably be accepted for a visa now since I "settled down".

And Canadian customs and inmigration were very friendly, I don't doubt the
U.S. people might be the same (though they did fingerprint my father the time
he was there, and he reported a few not so friendly times, and he is a
frequent visitor).

------
jgrahamc
There's a better version of the story on the Daily Mail web site that has a
picture of the documents given to these folks when they were barred:
[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2093796/British-
tour...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2093796/British-tourists-
arrested-America-terror-charges-Twitter-jokes.html)

~~~
corin_
Only The Sun could make an article in the Daily Mail appear good by
comparison.

Amazing quote from the girl in this piece though:

 _"We just wanted to have a good time on holiday. That was all Leigh meant in
his tweet. He would not hurt anyone. He is gay.'_

Wondering if I can use that as evidence that I wouldn't hurt anything if I
ever have any problems with the TSA..

~~~
jgrahamc
Reading Ms. Banting's Twitter stream makes me wonder if they weren't really
barred from entry on the grounds of being total numbskulls.

~~~
rooshdi
Well, by those grounds, they might as well stay consistent and kick out some
of our politicians too while they're at it!

------
gee_totes
So, aside from the discussion around the journalistic standards of the Sun,
now the Department of Homeland Security is monitoring the twitter accounts of
British citizens?

Furthermore, how did DHS match up a twitter handle with a passport number?

~~~
rachelbythebay
That's the sort of discussion I'd love to hear. There's surprisingly little
about the privacy ramifications here of somehow associating real people to an
online account.

Granted, the tech exists. Google has been doing it for a while now. Anyone
who's gotten the little "is this you?" thing when doing a search knows what
I'm talking about.

~~~
gee_totes
I wonder how many false positives happen with these match ups. Or if the
people in question could have just denied that they made the tweets.

This also makes me super freaked out about Google+'s real names policy, since
it will literally be providing the United States Government with a massive
surveillance network.

~~~
cookiecaper
Why are you more worried about Google+ than Facebook?

~~~
gee_totes
Facebook is much more lenient with fake names, and it's much less of a risk
for a user to have a fake name on Facebook--all that get's deactivated with if
a fake name gets caught is the Facebook account, not their Gmail or any other
services.

True, if caught with a fake name, your @facebook.com e-mail will probably be
deactivated, but not as many people use @facebook.com as do @gmail.com

------
exDM69
I work for a US company in Europe and I'm seriously concerned about my
security if and when the time comes for me to visit the company HQ. I'm a
completely harmless person, but sometimes I look like a bearded pirate (arr!),
my passport photo looks like I'm a recently escaped convict, I've ordered
flight simulators and aviation maps with my credit card from the US and my
police file mentions a short wrestling match with a police officer and some
other encounters with the law. I've been involved in organizing underground
music events and I've probably been photographed by security officials in
political protests I've attended.

If people get locked down and refused entry based on a few tweets, I'm worried
that my background check will get me a special four S treatment from airport
security officials.

I would not consider going to the US for a vacation. Thankfully there are five
other continents to visit.

~~~
sudonim
I live in the US. Someone put me on a list of people who retweet wikileaks
tweets and I'm concerned. Our policy towards visitors and immigrants has been
increasingly hostile. Citizens get it a little better, but increasingly bad
too.

Minor quibble with your last sentence:

> I would not consider going to the US for a vacation. Thankfully there are
> five other continents to visit.

Mexico, Canada, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Guatemala, Costa Rica, Panama, El
Salvador, Honduras all share North America with the United States. And
Antarctica is a continent too (7 total, not 6).

~~~
freehunter
Antarctica isn't really a hot (no pun intended) vacation area. People go there
to work and conduct research, but there's no hotels or resorts.

Besides Canada, the rest on your list don't scream "freedom" or "welcoming to
foreigners" to me. I'm not saying Cuba isn't an interesting place to visit,
but a Cuban vacation isn't really comparable to a US vacation in terms of
sight-seeing and luxury.

Though as an American, my viewpoint of Cuba might be skewed. There's a lot of
unwarranted and false anti-Cuban propaganda in this country, it makes it hard
to tell the truth from the lies.

~~~
WildUtah
If Costa Rica doesn't scream "freedom" and "welcoming to foreigners" to you,
you haven't been paying attention to your continental neighbors. Mexico is
great on most counts outside the border region, too. Even Guatemala and
Nicaragua and Panama are quite welcoming.

~~~
freehunter
Like I mentioned, the US has some pretty anti-Latin American bias. Everything
shown in the media is either Sandals Resorts, Caribbean Cruise Lines, or
jungles and warlords. People all around the world only know what they're
taught or what they've seen first hand. Not many Americans have seen Latin
America first-hand.

I _have_ been to Panama, came in on a boat from Mexico. The advice I received
in the port was to not set foot in the port in the first place and avoid law
enforcement even if I got into trouble. Of course I received the same warning
on the trip back to Mexico, so...

Like the whole system or not, America and their buddies do a pretty decent job
of keeping street thugs to a minimum.

------
chrisacky
Just for anyone unfamiliar with thesun news paper. They are the paper that
goes out with the sole intention of polluting a story with utter crap just to
fuel drama and sell more papers.

They are the by far the worst paper owned by the Murdoch empire and is an
embarrassment to the whole of the UK.

Anything written by the Sun can be discarded as total balls. </end rant>

~~~
hobbes
Your comment has the same balance and factual content as an editorial in the
Sun.

~~~
ehsanu1
This sentence is false?

You seem to be contradicting and confirming your parent at the same time.

------
mahmud
Shenanigans.

1) Where did they get the pictured Homeland Security report if HS "declined to
comment"? If accurate, it looks like the sort of communication that an agency
that refused to comment on an story would not be too quick to divulge. There
is no mention of a FOI application, which I'm not even sure two foreigners are
entitled to.

2) The two posing clowns are just that kind you would expect to be the butt of
jokes. They're so insanely benign, they must have been created for the sole
purpose of harmlessness.

3) It's the Sun.

~~~
Joeboy
> Where did they get the pictured Homeland Security report if HS "declined to
> comment"?

The Daily Mail article captions it as "Paperwork handed to Mr Van Bryan".

May be shenanigans, but I don't see any particular reason to think so aside
from the fact it's reported by the Sun/Mail.

~~~
danh
That is quite a strong reason, though.

------
wazoox
As said Richelieu, who knew his police business:

 _“Avec deux lignes d’écriture d’un homme, on peut faire le procès du plus
innocent“._

Unfortunately, this wasn't representative of a time of utmost personal
freedom...

~~~
pagekalisedown
Can you please translate?

~~~
bambax
I knew a version from Voltaire which goes like this: "give me one sentence
from anyone and I'll have him hanged."

Of course if it comes from Richelieu it's more interesting since he actually
could have people hanged, their castles destroyed, their properties
confiscated, etc.

------
patrickg
That reminds me of a story of a relative, who was working in a local German
bank (Sparkasse). They were screening the text on money transfers
(Überweisung) for words like "anthrax". I couldn't believe that they had such
an order.

~~~
GFischer
I work for an insurance company, and we have similar stupid orders.

They're mostly to show the U.S. that we're cooperating on anti-terrorism and
avoid being put on blacklists, no-one expects us to catch anything.

------
yaix
Just another prove that the terrorists won after all :(

------
rmc
And the UK convicted people.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Paul_Chambers>

------
perfunctory
Comments on the article's page are even scarier than the article itself.

~~~
netcan
some gems:

 _serves them right for putting up stupid comments like that on a public site
where the world can see

At least the yanks have got it right. If that was here, it would be completly
different... they would be welcome even more with a brass band waiting for
them at arrivals with hand outs, benefits and housing all sorted for them

Perhaps if they spoke or 'tweeted' to each other in proper
English........................... Or is it just me getting old? : )

No doubt that Twitter has replaced Facebook as THE medium for proving yourself
to be a prime CHUMP....

How are Americans supposed to know that its British Slang. They did the right
thing by detaining them as they believed they were a threat. The problem is
that since Facebook, Twitter etc, people enter their whole lives on the
internet, when 99.999999% of people really dont care. Its acutally good to see
that America's Security is high that two ordinary brummies saying something on
Twitter was picked up and they were questioned about it. Wish Britain had that
kind of security.

Twitter/Facebook is not private, its public. Get some common sense people.

serves them right, the bloody idiots. what kind of morons post those kinds of
statements ?

After the amount of people who died on 9/11, of course they are twitchy when
it comes to intercepting perceived threats. Terrorist don't come with a big
sign on their head! So if a couple of idiots who thought it was funny to
'joke' about destroying someone’s country on a 'public' network lose their
holiday that's hard luck, but the US probably feel that, better safe than
sorry, is the more important option. Not really for us to preach when we can't
even deport those we know to be a threat!_

This is terrifying. It's like Idiocracy!

~~~
swombat
Well, it _is_ the Sun we're talking about here. It does have a very specific
target audience.

~~~
perfunctory
Very specific? The sun "has ... the largest circulation of any daily newspaper
in the United Kingdom"
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sun_%28United_Kingdom%29>) Looks like the
specific audience you are talking about is the majority of the population.

~~~
swombat
Yes, it is. That's a sad reflection on our civilisation.

~~~
netcan
This funny little conversation has gone on a few time this thread. Several
times with only one person.

>> _"This_ is* The Sun we're talking about. It's hardly representative! _" >
_"Hardly representative? More than half of The UK read it."* > _"crap"_

------
RexRollman
And people wonder why I do nothing on the Internet under my own name.

~~~
tintin
Are you serious? Do you think you can't be tracked down by all the IP-
addresses you are using?

~~~
loopdoend
I think even more importantly than using a VPN in some foreign country, I
would start by _not_ joking about 'destroying America' so they wouldn't have a
reason to bother me. Then again I have no intention of ever visiting the
States again. It is sad that as a Canadian I feel threatened by our proximity
to our neighbors to the South.

~~~
mike-cardwell
It wasn't a joke. It was commonly used terminology to describe going somewhere
to "party". They could have written that they were going to "rock America".
This wouldn't have meant that they were going to start an earthquake.

~~~
LaGrange
No, that's slang for orbital bombing.

------
perfunctory
US is beginning to remind me of Soviet Union

------
blhack
How the _hell_ is the on the front page of HN?

The Sun is a rag newspaper from The UK, it is barely factual at best.

I have for some reason lost my ability to flag stories, but..."flagged" in
spirit.

~~~
tkahn6
I have no idea what the fuck is going on here. Comments on here are similar to
what you'd find on reddit. The story is exactly the kind of thing you'd find
on reddit.

------
Lewton
The apologists in the comments are pretty sickening. But I guess that's what I
get for clicking on a link to the sun

------
babarock
I am not really familiar with the Sun, but people here on HN seem to dismiss
the story as a hoax because it's featured on the this website/newspaper. Can
anyone please clarify what's its reputation and why should it be mistrusted?
Thanks.

~~~
tomelders
I wouldn't go as far as to say that the Sun makes stuff up... but they
certainly don't question a "good story" as much as they should and seem to
print almost everything at face value. It's the kind of paper that has
sensationalist headlines about pederasts on the front page, topless pics of
barely legal girls on page 3 and no sense of irony.

This particular article falls into the Jingoism style articles that the Sun is
famous for. It's readers are, by and large, xenophobic bigots obsessed with
reality TV and C-List celebrities.

They're the closest thing with have to Fox News here in the UK, (that's no
coincidence as it's owned by Newscorp) and as such, articles in the Sun about
other countries should be given the same level of credence you would give Bill
O'Riley's comments about anything.

Other british tabloids you would do well to dismiss entirely out of hand are

\- The Mail \- The Mirror \- The Express \- The Sport (often hilarious)

~~~
arethuza
"I wouldn't go as far as to say that the Sun makes stuff up..."

You really think Freddie Starr ate that hamster?

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freddie_Starr#.22Freddie_Starr_...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freddie_Starr#.22Freddie_Starr_ate_my_hamster.22)

~~~
mooism2
Wikipedia backs up my recollection that Freddie Starr's publicist made that
up, although the Sun was hardly deceived into believing it was true.

------
viraptor
If the sun is really the best source for that information, then I'm not sure
it's to be believed.

------
paganel
So I guess "I want to kill the President of the United States of America" is
still illegal, isn't it? <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEQOvyGbBtY>

------
ch0wn
There must be a better source for this news than The Sun.

------
chernevik
If the TSA were taking decisions based on actual threats and threat vectors
you'd see very different behaviors and structures. As they aren't, they lack
any proper standard to avoid stupidity like this.

------
beedogs
America sucks more every day. It truly amazes me how far it's fallen in the
past 20 years.

------
pistoriusp
I'm wondering how they matched up his Twitter account to his real identity?

~~~
muyuu
Full name right there and date of flight.

------
paraschopra
Wow, just wow! Is this story real? If so, shame on US authorities.

------
usedtolurk
The only surprising thing about this story is that it made the papers.

US immigration officials have always taken a hard line on visitors. I had a
very similar experience several years before 9/11 when I was denied entry
because they suspected that I MIGHT be intending to marry my then-girlfriend
(a US citizen and now ex-girlfriend).

Often, when I've related my story, I've heard similar first-hand accounts of
travelers being accused of trying to smuggle in drugs, etc. for no apparent
reason and being denied entry, interrogated or worse. Any flimsy pretext seems
sufficient. I don't know if the officials need to fill quotas or if they are
trying to set examples. I'm sure some are on a power trip but in my case they
seemed decent people, just determined not to be swayed by evidence or common
sense.

As much as I like America (and it's people in particular) I have no desire to
return.

------
alanmeaney
I wouldn't consider this a US only problem. Anyone from UK/Ireland will
remember this case: [http://news.techeye.net/internet/stephen-fry-prepared-
for-ja...](http://news.techeye.net/internet/stephen-fry-prepared-for-jail-in-
robin-hood-airport-twitter-case)

------
drucken
This is extremely unpleasant given the vast reach of US authorities worldwide,
let alone just for entry into the US.

Someone could ruin your life based on just your name just by impersonating you
or simply having the same name on social networking while acting in some way
an authority finds offensive, even if you yourself have never used it!

It would seem you are actually safer to be the first to create closed and
private accounts on Twitter, Facebook, Google+, of your actual name - even
when you never ever want to give out your private information, including your
name, and will never use the accounts.

~~~
GFischer
Yes, you can be in serious trouble just by having the misfortune of sharing a
name with a terrorist:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List>

Even senator Edward Kennedy had trouble with that one.

------
k-mcgrady
This story really shocked me. That's a tweet I could easily imagine myself
sending. I would seriously think twice before making a trip to America now.
And with the recent stories about the FBI developing software to monitor
social media I can only imaging this getting worse.

------
noonespecial
You can't joke about the prophet. You can't joke about the US. Zealots just
have no sense of humor.

------
hopeless
It's stupid things like this that have kept me from travelling to the US for
work or conferences since 2003. I've actively avoided them. Unfortunately,
we'll probably have to attend a wedding in NY next year but I'm not looking
forward to the experience

------
ck2
Please end Homeland Security Theater before they cause an international
incident that cannot be undone.

(but also, this is the Sun and linked from HN? Really?)

------
jorgem
TSA is "disrupting" our tourism industry.

------
brianobush
It is rather hard to tie down context from 140 characters. Even non-technical
users could figure that one out.

------
rnernento
At this point I'm scared to comment...

------
sambeau
Does anyone know what the quote mentioned from Family Guy is?

------
jwr
The land of the free.

------
gitarr
I don't know what else to say then people like those border agents and the
incredible stupidity they seem to posses are a bigger danger to humanity than
anyone else could ever be.

It's so ridiculous that it's not even funny anymore and I for one will not
conduct business with, nor visit the US before things change for the better
there.

They have to treat their own people better as well as visitors, not only the
rich.

I know there are still worse countries, but only just, and it's never a good
thing to measure oneself against bad examples.

------
J3L2404
Reddit now has more credibility than HN.

------
J3L2404
Even if this story is accurate, which is unlikely, the righteous indignation
of the comments here is even more pathetic. The U.S is like China and Russia,
please. That is an insult to people actually living in oppression. Maybe do
something productive instead.

~~~
netcan
In an interview with Anthony Bourdain (Vice Guide to Travel) he mentioned that
even in North Korea he is less worried about being picked up by authorities
(than criminals). It usually just ends in deportation.

It's very easy to blow off incidents like this with a 'not much harm done'
attitude. The truth is that a paranoia and senselessness from authority is
what makes a regime like Russia or China and the US is quickly going in that
direction.

------
shareme
Folks lets remember something, unlike some regimes the USA admits it makes
mistakes and corrects them.. sometimes you have to wait along time..but in
contrast to a non-democratic republic there is no equal in terms of a
gov/democracy that changes to become better.

~~~
jeswin
No doubt USA remains way better than many other countries. But that isn't what
people are complaining about. It is the paranoia taking away a way of life
that everyone seemed to like, even people (like me) who live outside the US.

The first time I visited the US (this was after 9/11), I was surprised to see
the extent of security checks at airports. In my mind, I had notions of people
getting into airplanes like they get into a buses or trains. Now there were
lots of armed security, queues, list of things not to do. And I had no clue
why elderly women were getting frisked.

I stood wondering what would have happened if they just did away with these
checks. If the money and time saved could be put into health care, it would
have saved way more lives than would be lost in terrorist attacks. And people
could have generally had a better time.

------
tokenadult
Maybe it's time to differ from hivemind here. I should make clear that I
cherish my right as an American, which I exercise liberally at home and
abroad, to criticize the American government in general. I also like to call
out specific elected or appointed officials (for example, the President,
whoever he is each term) any time I think they are making mistakes.
Participants on Hacker News who are also my Facebook friends know that I am
not in the least bit shy about expressing political opinions contrary to those
of the United States federal government leaders or those of my state
government. That said, I think a foreign national kidding around about a trip
in which he or she will "destroy America" shouldn't be surprised to be
questioned about that by law enforcement officers. I have traveled to other
countries, and have lived in another country as a long-term resident, and I
don't express to cross a border without someone from the other country
checking me out to see if I will obey the laws while I am in their country.

As a more general statement contrary to the main thrust of comments here, I
have no fear that the United States of America will lose out on immigrants or
business visitors any time soon. Any time here on Hacker News that we have a
thread about United States visa policies, dozens of participants complain that
they wish it was easier to come to the United States to do business, to visit,
or to settle permanently. The United States is still a huge draw to people
from all over the world, as I was especially aware when I lived in an
international dormitory with students from all over the globe in another
country. The rate of immigration to the United States has ups and downs, with
the downs coming especially at times when the United States economy is in
depression or recession, but on the whole the United States is one of the few
countries in the world that still count on sustained, large, long-term
population growth from net immigration alone, even if the rate of natural
increase falls below replacement levels. (And it could be argued that the
below-replacement birth rates of many countries are parents' expression of
little hope for their countries' futures, as they are not even willing to have
children in those countries. The United States still has an above-replacement
birth rate and thus also enjoys natural increase in population.)

So, yes, let's criticize the United States whenever any liberties of persons
in the United States are curtailed, but let's be realistic about where else
people can travel and kid around about socially harmful or illegal behavior.
If one is to leave the United States for more freedom, where would one go?
(Fewer examples have been named in other comments than I would have expected,
so far.) Considering ALL the trade-offs, which places are really, truly
plainly better places to live than the United States? Which places are better
to visit for tourism?

~~~
iuguy
So two questions here:

Considering ALL the trade-offs, which places are really, truly plainly better
places to live than the United States?

I haven't been to the United States since 1999. However I have been to a lot
of other places, some good, some bad and I can honestly say that most of
Canada seems to be fine, albeit a little colder than most of the US. The UK
(although I'm biased, as I live here) has a lot to offer while still being
culturally close enough to the US. Australia is a wonderful country far better
than most, but culturally somewhat coarser than the US. New Zealand is also
good and slightly more reserved than Australia.

Outside of that I've had good experiences in the Netherlands (lots of English
spoken too if languages aren't your thing), Spain, France and Turkey (aside
from the actual bombings that happen relatively often without the government
losing it's shit, but then the government losing it's shit and doing stupid
stuff like trying to block youtube). I would say that Greece is probably not a
good place to go right now which is a shame as it's a lovely place.

Australia and Turkey both have fairly good economies, Canada's not doing too
badly either on that front. The UK has a thriving tech/hacker community in
most major cities and while the economy is shaky London's still a great place
in Europe to launch a startup.

Which places are better to visit for tourism?

Again, I only have limited experience of America and it's caught in a bubble
from two decades ago. My memories of America are incredibly friendly,
wonderful people, good service in restaurants, everything being too big (from
portion sizes to highways to the distances between things) and some really
impressive modern art and culture.

Canada I'd highly recommend but it isn't that different (although Montreal is
wonderful and Vancouver is great too, although I've never been to Seattle so I
don't know how similar it is). Anywhere you go in Europe you're going to find
history, art and all kinds of stuff.

The UK is a great place for Americans to go on holiday, as is France, Germany,
the Netherlands, Belgium, Spain and Italy. London and Edinburgh offer a host
of things to see and do, and places like the Brecon Beacons offer the most
amazing walks.

If you were to go to Istanbul I promise you an experience unlike anything you
will have ever seen, heard, smelt or tasted in a 3,000 year old city that's
seen earthquakes, ransackings, churches, minarets and wars over time.

The catacombs in Paris are really something else, although I always tell
people to ditch the Louvre and head to Montmartre for fine French culture from
la belle epoque.

Bavaria has the most amazing mountain air and there's a whole load of
beautiful walks through Ludwig II's old garden, not to mention the beer and
food.

Andalucia in Spain offers incredible history, art, food and fiesta from
bullfighting and tapas in Seville to the Mesquita in Cordoba and the Al Hambra
in Granada. Barcelona is one of the most laid back beautiful cities I've ever
seen with wonderful people.

Of course all this is academic. You asked a set of questions at best seeking
validation that the US is the best place in the world or an opportunity to
challenge it. If I hadn't made a conscious decision not to go to the US while
the DHS and TSA still stand (foolishly believing it'd all be sorted out in a
few years) then I wouldn't have seen half of these places. Sure I'd have seen
New York, Vegas, LA and maybe a few other places but would I trade that for
Paris, Barcelona and London? Tough call to make, each to their own I guess.

------
lignuist
US authorities should adjust their webmining algorithms.

~~~
perfunctory
For what? So that they can spot real terrorists who post their plans on-line?

~~~
lignuist
For instance... No, it was more a joke. :) I think we all know, that trying to
catch terrorist via twitter is pointless.

~~~
maaku
Perhaps, but it's a reasonable way to catch mentally unstable people acting
out crazy fantasies... Such people might actually post their plans on twitter.

~~~
lignuist
What if authorities cannot distinguish between such utterances and bad jokes?
(Obviously they can't) I think, many people would change the way they
communicate, if a single silly tweet can have legal consequences or even can
destroy their lives.

~~~
perfunctory
Oh yes they will. This is exactly what's happening in authoritarian countries
around the world.

------
MrAnger
unfortunately i cant read this title as my Block Murdoch extension wont allow
it :-) But free speech is dead along with the right to protest and next will
be political freedom

