
Germany’s hidden hunger - Tomte
http://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2017/09/world/germany-food-bank-cnnphotos/
======
wsy
The article, in particular the heading, paints a very wrong picture. There is
no hunger in Germany, neither open nor hidden. "Grundsicherung" (the state
provides all essentials for everyone) is guaranteed by the German
constitution. It covers all that is needed to lead a life in human dignity
("Menschenwürde"). That includes rent, food, basic clothes, and a surplus that
enables the recipients to take part in social life (e.g., to buy a cinema
ticket).

So why is the woman portrayed in the article visiting the "Tafel"? The
mentioned surplus is really small. For example, if your kid wants to be soccer
goal keeper and needs soccer shoes and gloves, that would not be covered by
social support. By visiting the "Tafel", the mother can save money otherwise
spent for food, and can buy such extras for her kids.

tl;dr: being poor in Germany is very different from being poor in the USA. The
CNN article does not understand these differences.

------
shadowtree
Economically, Hartz4 was a brilliant move by Germany. It enabled their economy
to compete with Eastern Europe, kept their overal social net intact. Basically
a big counter-pressure weight to rising wages.

See how other EU5 did not follow this model and their struggles.

Not arguing ethics here, welcome a discussion on these mechanics of fiscal
policy.

~~~
alexasmyths
"See how other EU5 did not follow this model and their struggles."

Uhh, there are so many differences between nations, one can hardly compare on
this basis alone. Of course, most Western European nations have pretty strong
social safety nets, one way or another.

Even just the Eurozone's monetary policy, which heavily favours Germany
(simply by have very strict monetary policy) - could be enough to explain most
of the differences in economic outcomes.

------
Mahn
> She earns about 825 euros ($990) per month and gets an extra 500 euros
> ($600) in welfare because of her low wages.

> But rents are high — and rising — in Fürstenfeldbruck. Kus’s apartment alone
> costs her more than 800 euros ($960) per month.

That's one expensive rent for a small town in Germany. Usually one would not
spend that much in rent with that income if they can help it.

~~~
ianhowson
"half an hour from the southern German city of Munich"

Munich rents are pretty insane.

~~~
thriftwy
If the state is footing the bill for everybody to cramp into Munich area, it's
no wonder rents will grow.

It's like if they subsidized everybody winning at auction for a limited supply
(real estate is an auction basically).

~~~
fgjjgutjvnu
No, the rents are high because Munich has a lot of successful industries, like
BMW. People in Munich have good incomes. Also, the region is very attractive
to live in.

------
adventured
The sub headline threw me immediately:

"On the breadline in Europe’s richest country"

Germany isn't Europe's richest country, not even close. They may be Europe's
most influential economy due to size. The rich title goes to Luxembourg or
Switzerland; then to Norway. Or take Belgium as an example a notch down the
list: their median wealth per adult is nearly four times that of Germany.

One of Germany's problems is precisely that they're not such a rich nation at
all. Their median net wealth per adult is a mere $42,000 and has not improved
in over a decade. It's lower than Spain (which has over 1/3 less GDP per
capita), Taiwan and the US.

Their median income is also not impressive, given the way they're widely
perceived as being Europe's most powerful economy. Their median income is near
~25% below that of the US.

Their economic growth for a decade has been nearly flat. $3.4 trillion in
2007, $3.4 trillion in 2016. To make matters worse, in 1995 it was $2.6
trillion - adjusted for even a small amount of annual inflation, they've seen
between zero and very little economic growth for two decades. All of this
while Germany has been free riding on an artificially cheap Euro (artificially
cheap for Germany), while simultaneously harming most of the other Euro-zone
members (such as Spain or Portugal), with the end result being propped up
exports for Germany.

What does that all add up to? Record poverty problems:

[https://www.thelocal.de/20170303/german-poverty-hits-
record-...](https://www.thelocal.de/20170303/german-poverty-hits-record-high-
despite-low-unemployment)

[http://www.newsweek.com/poverty-germany-record-high-says-
stu...](http://www.newsweek.com/poverty-germany-record-high-says-study-308294)

~~~
rsynnott
Arguably, the relatively low wealth per capita is partially because they've
been one of the few western European countries to mostly avoid a major
property bubble in the last while.

~~~
dmix
I remember reading an article that dug into claims that France took better
care of their poor than America. This was true in some areas but overall the
quality of life of the American poor was still better in many ways because
they had a far wider selection of services and products at far cheaper prices.
So although primary services like day care were less subsidized they were able
to do much more with the little money they had.

It's easy to gloss over the realities of peoples day-to-day life when
comparing countries with different economies and social structures by only
looking at high level statistics or only at the more highly visible government
services.

~~~
dx034
What wide selection of services can the poor in the US access? My impression
is that many services benefit the rich. Once you have a minimum amount of
wealth, products become cheaper. Financial products are a prime example for
that.

~~~
adventured
The poor in the US have a large entitlement structure, including free
healthcare, and countless state / local / federal programs around food
security and housing.

The top 1/3 in the US pay nearly all income taxes, for example. The bottom 1/2
in the US pay almost no income taxes (the bottom 1/3 have a large negative
income tax level), while deriving substantial tax payer benefits. The US has
an extremely progressive taxation system.

~~~
wil421
Just to add there are many non-profit and religious based support networks.
Including things like “soup kitchens”, food drives, and shelters that are not
government run.

------
thriftwy
The system where the poor have to rent apartments in big cities is obviously
flawed. Soon, average rent approaches median wage. Then subsidies come into
play. Now, rent can grow even more. Now, rents is not something people are
ready to pay but something rent-seekers extract directly from state coffers.
It's an arbitrary amount. We end up playing money to the already rich.

(We should probably pay subsidies to old/disabled people on condition that
they move away from centers of economic activity and into more rural,
economically depressed areas)

~~~
legulere
Yes just kick out the poor from the cities that are the center of their life:
where they lived for their whole life, where friends and family live, where
their job is, where they are active in clubs, where there are jobs and
cultural offers.

~~~
thriftwy
You can live in the city that is the center of your life as long as you want,
provided you can pay rent.

Once you can't pay your rent and apply for subsidies, naturally we should see
where the compromise is.

Otherwise you will not help yourself landing in the situation where X can fit
in a city comfortably, but 10*X people consider the particular city the center
of their life. What do we do?

~~~
asymmetric
People without much money shouldn't be forced to move out of neighbourhoods
they call home just because they don't have money.

Who said money should buy you the right to a life with strong social bonds?

Some things, including the ones mentioned above, should not be on the market.

~~~
thriftwy
They should have bought some property instead of renting it out then.

Augmented social bounds with economic ones.

~~~
legulere
People not being able to pay rent? They should simply buy property instead!

Germany is traditionally a country with low personal wealth, low homeownership
rates. On the other hand renting is relatively cheap. Most people simply
cannot afford to buy property. Already in Nürnberg, which is the second
biggest metropolitan area in Bavaria after Munich where the housing prices are
around half of that of Munich people with normal wages struggle to be able to
acquire a home.

~~~
thriftwy
> Germany is traditionally a country with low personal wealth, low
> homeownership rates

So basically you are working like an ant, but with grasshopper's security[0]?
Maybe it's time to change that?

> On the other hand renting is relatively cheap.

Not anymore now that winter is here!

0\.
[https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Fables_(La_Fontaine,_tr._Wrig...](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Fables_\(La_Fontaine,_tr._Wright\)/The_Grasshopper_and_the_Ant)

------
petard
What's saddening is that topics that really affect people's daily lives like
rising income inequality got completely sidelined in upcoming elections.

~~~
dx034
Social inequality was one of the biggest topics in the election. It still
didn't help to break Merkel's popularity but the whole election campaign of
the SPD was centered around that topic.

It appears to me that Germans are very aware of social inequality. Minimum
wages and restrictions around contract work were attempts to slow down the
trend of growing social inequality. It hasn't stopped it but I think no
country has yet found a way to stop/reverse the inequality brought by
technology.

~~~
Joe-Z
>It appears to me that Germans are very aware of social inequality

Maybe, but I don't think they are in the sense that really matters. First, I
think a lot of people just see social inequality as a global problem, like all
the refugees coming there from poorer countries.

Second, the impression that I often get from Germans is that they are all for
helping people in dire straits but at the same time thinking that they are
somehow excluded from ever getting into such a situation and that for people
that do it's their own fault and they are somehow worth less for it.

~~~
rbehrends
According to the most recent Ipsos MORI poll [1], "What worries the world",
social inequality and poverty is the single biggest concern of Germans, with
46% putting it in first place.

[1] [https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/2017-08/what-
worri...](https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/2017-08/what-worries-the-
world-great-britain.pdf)

~~~
Joe-Z
Thanks for actually coming up with some numbers. The linked study also shows
that the 2nd biggest worry is Terrorism at 38%. Now, I'm a believer that
people are way too worried about terrorism because they get bombarded with
terrorism in the news all the time. Similarly with social inequality: The
social inequality people in Germany experience via the news is mainly
concerning refugees, economic migrants and other international topics, no?

However if you show people what social inequality actually looks like in their
own country they will dismiss it because that's not social inequality, that's
just talking about 'Assis' (i.e. the people in dire straits who are themselves
to blame for their situation, as I mentioned in my previous comment).

------
fgjjgutjvnu
The "poverty line" in Germany is defined as "earning less than 60% of the
average national income". It does not imply being starved for food.

Everybody in Germany is eligible for social benefits, which includes material
things like paying the rent, health insurance and a certain amount of money to
get though the month. The food banks make it easier to get through the month
if you don't have much money, but they don't imply that people can't get by
without them. Often articles about poverty in Germany forget to count in the
free health care and free rent, which is worth a couple of hundred EUR at
least. I bet many Americans would kill for having that kind of health care, in
fact. Unemployed receive the same level of health care are everybody else.

Sometimes there are issues with bureaucracy, for example people are forced to
move into a smaller flat even if their current larger flat is cheaper, because
of regulations (benefits recipients can only have so much space or whatever).
That sucks and needs to be remedied. Those are hiccups in the system, though,
not a large scale phenomenon.

Also there are people who don't accept help, like homeless people with mental
issues.

Other than that, the issue is really overblown.

------
Annatar
This piece from American news is surreal: it reads like the Soviet politbureau
propaganda from the past century; "see inequality is not just discrete to
America, rich Germany has the same thing, so it's not unfair and there is
nothing to go out on the streets and protest about". "Special war tactics"
book from the former Yugoslav republic army describes it as tactical
information war.

But the mistake is on you, CNN: we have networked systems which provide
instant information at our fingertips, and some of us aren't illiterate, we
read lots and lots of books: you are attempting to manipulate the American
public at large by attempting to prevent protests about inequality and
fairness using communist-like tactical war methodology. Oh my, how the times
haven't changed.

~~~
waitcnn
Wait, you think CNN of all people is leading the charge to spread American
propaganda? While i'll admit their war hawking is nauseous, they don't have
much of an agenda beyond making as much money a possible.

~~~
beachwood23
If you don't see CNN as a pusher of propaganda to the American Left, you're
severely myopic.

~~~
downrightmike
Are you sure its to the Left? They're far more conservative Right from all
I've seen.

