
Tracking leaks on NDA beta Xbox 360s by embedding serial number on-screen - danso
https://twitter.com/cullend/status/1071884772064944128
======
wlesieutre
Not as subtle, but Star Citizen's NDA test servers have hidden watermarks to
track where screenshots come from. Someone pulled up the edges to show one
here: [https://i.imgur.com/FXzwlYd.png](https://i.imgur.com/FXzwlYd.png)

You still get leaks because people take screenshots for their bug reports,
upload them somewhere (even with an unlisted URL) for discussion on the bug
reports forum, and then other users under the same NDA can download your
screenshots and share them (rather than getting busted for leaking their own).
So having a screenshot from a bug report leak isn't necessarily actionable for
banning people.

But it's still useful to prevent, say, users under NDA streaming the super
buggy builds on Twitch. Once they're relatively stable, CIG drops the NDA
requirement, opens testing to a wider audience, then eventually push out to
the main servers.

Doing this with a disguised UI component is a pretty cute implementation.

~~~
hartator
As an early backer of Star Citizen, I wish they focus more on making the game
instead of chasing down leakers.

~~~
sandworm101
Because SC is not actually a game. It has evolved into a dream business. They
are selling dreams. So secrecy is most important, else the glamour collapse.
They lost me when they hired Gillian Anderson, but DRM ridiculousness is on
the same level. Such things should not be the focus of a studio working to
provide an actual game.

~~~
wavefunction
I have thought about this and realized I don't have the knowledge of how
Gillian Anderson and the other big name actors have been compensated for their
involvement to be critical. Maybe the actors receive the rights to their hirez
digital scans, for example. Maybe the actors are getting a cut of the eventual
'box office take.'

~~~
wlesieutre
The digital scans on their own probably aren't worth much, doing anything with
them is a lot of modeling and shader work tied to the game engine. My bet's on
good old fashioned money, possibly a cut of Squadron 42 sales, but probably
not a cut of the giant pile of crowdfunding.

Mark Hamil and John Rhys-Davies might have been an easier sell, having been in
Wing Commander. For the rest, maybe they were excited to work on something
that hasn't been done before. The quality of the characters shown in the
trailer is crazy.

~~~
sandworm101
Such actors do not work for cuts of crowd-funded games. They may get residuals
or a share of sales, but they were paid cash for their time. You can hire C
and D-list with promises of future pay, but A/B demand money.

~~~
wlesieutre
I was thinking more “both” than “only potential future money if we ever finish
it”

~~~
krageon
A cut of future money means no money. Anyone who is even a bit savvy and
carries the kind of clout that comes with a big bank account doesn't need to
work for empty promises. If they were promised both, it would be really
surprising to me if the immediate money wasn't already enough to pay them for
their time. Given that that is the case, "both" suddenly doesn't make sense
anymore.

------
iamben
Always amused me: Sky used to use a pint glass on subscription sports package
for pubs/bars. But some sneaky publicans were sticking pint glass stickers to
the corner of their screens to fool inspectors... So now the glass has a
different filling depending on the day.

~~~
josu
The Spanish football league app turns on the microphone to listen if a game is
playing and reports back to La liga with the exact location to find bars and
restaurants with pirate broadcasts.

[https://techcrunch.com/2018/06/12/spanish-soccer-app-
caught-...](https://techcrunch.com/2018/06/12/spanish-soccer-app-caught-using-
microphone-and-gps-to-snoop/)

~~~
giobox
Wow, surprised this hasn’t generated more coverage. They’ve turned a giant
chunk of their userbase, likely completely unknown to a majority of users who
understandably won’t read the small print, into snitches/whistleblowers.

This presumably also inadvertently returns the home address of anyone opening
the app while watching a game in their own living room? Not a huge stretch to
move from pursuing public places without the correct licensing to pursuing
individuals for pirate streams.

> "It also specifies that the feature is only deployed in its Android app."

Probably because this nonsense would cause a hellstorm in App Review on iOS.

~~~
dsl
> Probably because this nonsense would cause a hellstorm in App Review on iOS.

Or because it wouldn't be approved in the first place. Say what you want about
walled gardens, but at least someone is policing the ecosystem.

~~~
eneveu
I think that's what he meant by "App Review":

"App Review - We review all apps and app updates submitted to the App Store in
an effort to determine whether they are reliable, perform as expected, and are
free of offensive material."

[https://developer.apple.com/app-
store/review/](https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/)

------
michaelbuckbee
I met a dev who worked at Paypal that was pushing to steganographically add
the IP address of the request client to the Paypal logo on every page load.

The reasoning being that you could then look at any phishing/scam site that
included the logo and find the IP of the perpetrator (presuming a bunch of
other things).

~~~
btown
While this might catch some folks, many phishing/scam sites can route their
requests through residential proxy networks. There are plenty of legitimate
networks (e.g. ones that use free VPN offerings as a way to route traffic
through your IP) with minimal KYC, and even more illegitimate ones based on
botnets. This seems like a lot of engineering for a mitigation that’s easily
worked around.

------
avar
Related: Anyone else noticed how Google Maps is now doing more subtle
watermarking where they embed their logo into Street View images using machine
learning, e.g. here:
[https://imgur.com/a/0T8wP2u](https://imgur.com/a/0T8wP2u) URL:
[https://www.google.com/maps/@52.3730304,4.8793692,3a,68y,194...](https://www.google.com/maps/@52.3730304,4.8793692,3a,68y,194.22h,83.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4WICi0WcvZTyKwm8wM3brw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)

Edit: Look a the yellow area above the door obscured by the Land Rover. They
embedded their logo along the shape & size of an appropriately sized feature
on the building, as opposed to somewhere randomly where it would be more
visible as it crosses e.g. the boundary between a building and a tree.

When I first spotted this I thought Google's logo was actually on that
building, but it disappears as you zoom in/out.

~~~
eridius
I can’t figure out what I’m supposed to be looking for in that image.

~~~
hiccuphippo
I didn't noticed it in the imgur link, the image was probably compressed. You
can see it in the google maps link.

~~~
eridius
Now that I know what to look for, I can see it in your imgur image, but I
don't actually see it on the live Google Maps link.

I do se a small one overlapping the steering wheel on the car, which doesn't
appear to be particularly smart placement.

~~~
bestnameever
yeah I only see watermarks if I'm zoomed in all the way and they are way
smaller and more transparant than what was in the imgur image.

------
JCharante
I'm surprised that so many people are surprised that this was a thing. Ever
since I learned that tracking information is present but hidden in an Eve
Online alliance's forum[0] for tracking down leakers, I've assumed that
anything serious inside or especially outside a video game would have the same
resources allocated.

[0]
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/1ftvub/pl_forum_waterm...](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/1ftvub/pl_forum_watermarking_unmasked_and_explained/)

~~~
15155
Former EVE player (Nulli Secunda) and long-time software engineer.

I saw this way back when and now assume any kind of NDA'd or questionable text
has uniquely-identifiable unicode replacement character sequences and
invisible watermarks. It's just too easy to do.

~~~
Moru
Old lexicons had misspelled words put in to catch the copycats. Since they
don't have to prove who did the copying it's easy, they just have to prove
that the copy is from them.

We do something similar to our stuff. No need to prove who did the copying as
they publish the stuff on their app/homepage and have exactly the same
spelling mistakes as our homepage displays to the ip-numbers we know they are
using for harvesting. Document all and send to the lawyers.

------
deogeo
Related - printer dots:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_Identification_Code](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_Identification_Code)

Great tool to crack down on any clandestine poster campaigns.

~~~
detaro
Possibly also helped to find NSA leaker Reality Winner, after the Intercept
published good-quality scans of documents she'd printed at work:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality_Winner#Intelligence_re...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality_Winner#Intelligence_report_leak,_arrest_and_sentencing)

~~~
flukus
Conversely, wouldn't this make it incredibly easy to frame someone?

------
boingy
they also used a 'zebra' skin on prototype Xbox One consoles to be able to
find people who leaked images of the physical console:
[https://www.thetechgame.com/News/sid=8160/photos-of-an-
xbox-...](https://www.thetechgame.com/News/sid=8160/photos-of-an-xbox-one-
zebra-prototype.html)

Xbox have a reputation for watermarking things to a large extent to deter
leakers. The first ever footage of Halo 4 Multiplayer came courtesy of someone
recording it from a terrible camera, played on a CRT television, from a VHS
recording, while in a barn. I would link it but it also has obnoxiously loud
music playing over the top of it but if you search 'halo 4 barn leak' you will
be able to find it. Admittedly I'm sure whoever leaked that went a bit too far
for comedic effect

~~~
kweks
Zebra skins are also used on prototype cars / unreleased cars - not for
traceability, but to obscure their form - very similar to the technique used
in WW2 battleships.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dazzle_camouflage](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dazzle_camouflage)
[https://encrypted-
tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTv1x...](https://encrypted-
tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTv1xOaFzir591tHFQeq03b4W35rdvZaV8i0WuD8GOcE5PuA_eX)

~~~
robin_reala
Dazzle camo was more of a WW1 thing.

~~~
kweks
Thanks for the clarification. I noticed that the Swedish navy still seems to
use it ?

[https://www-thelocal-se.cdn.ampproject.org/ii/w1000/s/www.th...](https://www-
thelocal-
se.cdn.ampproject.org/ii/w1000/s/www.thelocal.se/userdata/images/article/f135320fc79a7c11e4c2442cd0e02113639cbaf6322a4eb4bf143bdd85ca8449.jpg)

~~~
ranger207
That's splinter camo. Camouflage is used in general to disrupt outlines, but
dazzle camouflage specifically used black and white to accomplish that goal.

[http://camopedia.org/index.php?title=Splinter](http://camopedia.org/index.php?title=Splinter)

------
dfxm12
I suppose this is a perfectly cromulent use of "security through obscurity",
and an excellent example of steganography.

I wonder if anyone thought about those rings or ever noticed they were
different machine to machine.

~~~
Someone1234
On a related topic, it would be fun to embed the EURion constellation[0] into
random things just so it results in difficult to trace side-effects. For
example wear a t-shirt with it printed on, if someone tried to edit CCTV
footage or a photo of you, it might error out.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EURion_constellation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EURion_constellation)

~~~
dsl
EURion only works on flat services (photocopiers and scanners). Photoshop
detects currency based on a Digimarc watermark, which you can't generate
without paying a licensing fee.

~~~
weinzierl
> Photoshop detects currency based on a Digimarc watermark, which you can't
> generate without paying a licensing fee.

You can't generate _your own_ without paying a licensing fee. Nothing[§]
prevents you from extracting existing watermarks and applying them to other
things. This is called a _copy attack_. There are mitigations[1] but I believe
they are not practical for banknotes. I've been told by a Digimarc
representative in private conversation about the mentioned paper, that _" The
Digimarc for Images solution does not utilize the exact functionality
described in the paper [..]"_. This was in 2011, I don't know if things have
changed.

[§] Ok, nothing technical at least; legally it's a different matter...

[1] [https://www.digimarc.com/docs/default-source/technology-
reso...](https://www.digimarc.com/docs/default-source/technology-
resources/published-technical-papers/commercial-
applications/dmrc_image_signatures.pdf)

~~~
dsl
The current research in to the Digimarc currency watermark has determined an
absolute minimal test case [1], however no one has discovered the exact
watermarking mechanism. I was speaking in absolutes because we can't do a copy
attack without knowing what features to extract.

Someone has enumerated all the detected regions on the 20 pound note [2] if
you'd like to take a stab at it!

1\.
[https://murdoch.is/projects/currency/cropped.png](https://murdoch.is/projects/currency/cropped.png)

2\.
[https://murdoch.is/projects/currency/small_crops.png](https://murdoch.is/projects/currency/small_crops.png)

~~~
ryanlol
I don't know anything about Digimarc, but it looks like this tool may allow
you to create watermarks as other people using the official digimarc software
[https://github.com/flarn2006/DigimarcPIN/](https://github.com/flarn2006/DigimarcPIN/)

------
ocdtrekkie
As someone who's been on a few NDA'd betas before... I just don't understand
why people leak. Is it the feeling they can break the rules without likely
facing truly serious repercussions? (Has anyone ever gone to jail or even been
seriously fined for violating a video game NDA?) Is it the notoriety of it?

I mean, I won't deny there was a fun factor to having a New York Times
reporter beg me to violate a Google NDA once. But even then, I had more fun
knowing something the New York Times didn't than breaking my agreement,
ruining my personal reputation/credibility as a trustworthy individual, etc.

And generally if I have access to these sorts of things, I'm enthusiastic
about what the company is doing, and the last thing I'd want to do is sabotage
them.

~~~
aaronmdjones
NDAs generally fall under civil law, and, with few exceptions (e.g. contempt
of court), you can't be incarcerated for civil (rather than criminal)
infractions.

You can still be fined to high heaven, though, and subject to forfeiture if
you can't pay...

~~~
ocdtrekkie
Have you ever actually heard of someone being fined over a video game NDA
though? Players being banned for violating NDAs in closed testing isn't super
uncommon, but I've never seen someone actually taken to court over it.

~~~
aaronmdjones
It would be up to the plaintiff (e.g. video game company) to claim monetary
damages occurred, and to what extent. I haven't heard of it, but that doesn't
mean it hasn't happened... the outcomes of many NDA cases are themselves not
disclosed.

------
ux
This reminds me of [https://www.ghacks.net/2012/09/12/blizzard-watermarking-
wow-...](https://www.ghacks.net/2012/09/12/blizzard-watermarking-wow-
screenshots/)

------
rixrax
Just as a thought experiment - what if they actually never implemented this.
But now through this announcement, everyone will think twice before leaking
BETA etc. program screenshots and second guess which UI elements might be the
ones that are used to identify them. ;-)

That said, excellent example of steganography as pointed out by others too!
Thumbs up!

~~~
cududa
Actually that was a trick they used in Windows 8 betas. They put a weird
puzzle watfermark on it, except they were all exactly the same!

However I guarantee this was real, but hasn’t been a part of the Xbox
experience for yearrrs

~~~
withinrafael
How do you guarantee this, Cullen?

~~~
cududa
Because Steven has literally talked about this on Twitter.

~~~
withinrafael
You guaranteed the Xbox tracking, so I was referring to that. Not the puzzle.

~~~
cortesoft
Isn’t his guarantee based on the fact that he was the one who did it?

------
rasz
Your (legally purchased/streamed) music is most likely also fingerprinted in a
way degrading its fidelity
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_Quality_Authenticated](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_Quality_Authenticated)

------
jmkni
That's neat.

Lots of broadcasters do something similar (display a number on the screen)
when they are broadcasting sports events etc to detect streaming. I'd love to
know how that works. Presumably they broadcast the same thing to everybody, so
is it actually the box/receiver which adds the number to the screen? Does
everybody get a unique number, or do groups of people get the same one?

~~~
Maxious
Apparently state level actors can defeat the watermarking...

> “There’s nothing else like it in the world,” Esteban Israel, beIN’s
> executive director of technology, said of beoutQ’s level of sophistication.
> “We work with all the top technology vendors, technology developers. We have
> our experts, we deploy state of the art technologies and we have not seen
> this anywhere else.”

[https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/09/sports/bein-sports-
qatar-...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/09/sports/bein-sports-qatar-
beoutq.html?smid=matthewkeyslive)

~~~
akersten
The image of some crack antipiracy team hanging out in a war room is just so
ridiculous to me. They say it's an individual subscriber's stream being
rebroadcast, who has somehow managed to remove the watermark? Alright, just
blank the stream for a few frames for half of your customers while watching
the illicit stream. Binary search until you find the culprit subscriber. Even
if you had 100 million subscribers it would only take 27 iterations to find.
No one is going to mind or probably even notice that their screen flickers a
few times.

Instead they've put together a team of highly-paid professionals bumbling
about that they can't possibly figure out who is behind all this.

While it may be slightly more complicated in the real world, I suspect it's
simply a case of justifying their own overpaid positions.

------
cbanek
"You're giving away all our best tricks" \- Wargames.

It's true. And boy did it surprise those leakers who wanted to show off the
fancy new UI and the new avatars.

~~~
cududa
Hell it surprised half the people internally that got fired using this

~~~
cbanek
Well probably all of them - otherwise they would have done it differently! :)

------
Impossible
I've worked on AAA games that have had similar watermarks to catch leak
sources.

------
bovermyer
OK, that's actually pretty cool.

------
reaperducer
Movie companies have done this for a long time. I was friends with a movie
critic back in VHS days, and the films sent to him to review before their
release had a warning and an ID number that popped up every five minutes or
so.

Strangely, not every film company did it. And it wasn't limited to just the
big movie companies. It seemed pretty random. Maybe because a shotgun approach
was cheaper.

~~~
dylan604
There's also a forensic watermarking technique used that is invisible to the
viewer. It is supposed to survive any kind of transcoding and scaling that
might occur. I can't remember the name of it, but we would use it to encode
videotape masters as well as for DVD/Blu-ray encodes. Very popular for use in
Academy screeners.

~~~
ghostly_s
Every new watermarking technique they come up with is discovered and obscured
within days each year by the screener leak community. I think it's kind of a
sport for them at this point.

~~~
baroffoos
If you have 2 leakers they can just run a tool to compare the difference
between the file and spot any watermarks. Of course the next level is making
the watermark so there is a bit that is unique to 2 users only so you will
then know the exact 2 who leaked it.

~~~
crazysim
Pretty sure they’ll just start bisecting the screener population down.

------
pragmatick
I might be too dumb to use twitter but where does he actually explain what he
did? I only see a screenshot and reaction gifs

~~~
pragmatick
Turns out, yes, I'm dumb.

------
withinrafael
[Edit: Removed all commentary. I'm getting penalized for discourse around an
unvalidated claim. I don't want to further affect my standing in the Hacker
News community.]

~~~
cududa
Hello Raf. Someone in the comments below confirmed it, as well as on twitter
:-)

As a side note, I don’t see why after not having any substantial interaction
in nearly a decade you continue to see the need to follow me around and harass
me.

