
Dutch adopt controversial ‘herd immunity’ strategy - wim
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/coronavirus-dutch-adopt-controversial-herd-immunity-strategy-1.4204578
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TeeWEE
There are not a lot of other choices. The Netherlands is doing the same as
other countries but our prime minister is more fair/ open about the virus.

Yes most people will get the virus anyway, anywhere. All measures are there to
"flatten the curve". [https://www.npr.org/sections/health-
shots/2020/03/13/8155022...](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-
shots/2020/03/13/815502262/flattening-a-pandemics-curve-why-staying-home-now-
can-save-lives)

Netherlands has all the policies in place to flatten the curve. Work from
home, schools closed, no big events. etc.

Its only fair that the prime minister says: everybody will get it. heck 50% to
75% of the cases are asymptomatic.

~~~
zozbot234
> Netherlands has all the policies in place to flatten the curve. Work from
> home, schools closed, no big events. etc.

This is not nearly enough, unfortunately; we know this because other countries
tried it initially and failed to keep the outbreak contained. You should stay
at home as much as possible, and minimize your interactions with others if you
must go out for whatever reason. Also, you should definitely be wearing
protective equipment when outside the home. If only to protect others who
might be vulnerable.

~~~
mstolpm
> Also, you should definitely be wearing protective equipment when outside the
> home.

Here in Austria, you can't even get masks or single-use hand gloves anymore.
And I hear the same is happening in Germany. Moreover, we are advised _not_ to
buy protective gear for individual use because that is needed for workers with
much exposition to other people (like cashiers in supermarkets, helpers and
medial staff). We have a lockdown, so everyone should stay at home and only go
outside if necessary.

~~~
zozbot234
> Moreover, we are advised _not_ to buy protective gear for individual use
> because that is needed for workers with much exposition to other people

There's no real reason for this - not for low-grade ("surgical" or even "dust-
proof") masks at least, and these are most critical in order to protect
_others_ in case you're sick and asymptomatic. Chinese suppliers are shipping
those out as fast as they can make them, and many factories that normally make
e.g. textiles and the like could retool and start making them if it came to
that.

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mantap
This "herd immunity" strategy is just a sophisticated form of denial. UK
announced it on Thursday and abandoned it the following Monday.

It doesn't take into account the high hospitalisation rate and the fact that
mortality is a function of hospital stress.

~~~
wartijn_
The Dutch government isn't in denial though. Cafes, restaurants, schools
universities and day cares are closed. Large gatherings are forbidden and
people are encouraged to work from home and be sensible about having contact
with other people.

According to the PM, the chosen strategy should prevent both a super high
hospitalization rate and a lengthy lock-down of the entire country.

~~~
Pecs
They are closed because members of the public wanted them to be closed. If you
look at this
[https://www.elsevierweekblad.nl/nederland/achtergrond/2020/0...](https://www.elsevierweekblad.nl/nederland/achtergrond/2020/03/tijdlijn-
coronacrisis-in-tweets-rivm-743404/) you'll see a pattern of denial.

------
whb07
This is going to be one of the costliest panics in history.

A 1000 person test case was ran in isolation and they found this disease to
not be very deathly, and this population was skewed toward the elderly.

Half the world’s population lives in a 2 hour flight away from Wuhan, and even
without testing, there have been no random spikes in deaths especially
considering most of that world is significantly poorer and without proper
healthcare infrastructure.

The tragedy here isn’t about the immediate health impacts, of which are low,
but of the second and third order effects to society and the world.

That office cleaning night crew ain’t getting paid. New tax revenues to fund
potential research at universities isn’t raised. Those with still less
fashionable diseases, will have even less money for their cause.

~~~
piva00
This is a health issue not because of the disease being too deadly but by
being a perfect combination of not being deadly enough and requiring intensive
and long care for those affected by a severe case. This is not about you dying
of COVID-19, it's about you dying because you got into an accident and didn't
have enough ICU beds available to treat an injury you shouldn't die from. It's
about avoiding crumbling to the pressure of the healthcare system which would
trigger even bigger panics, even more social unrest and so on.

Don't spread misinformation or opinions as a fact, you don't know what this is
gonna be, I don't know and no expert knows, this is unprecedented territory in
contemporary society. You are not better than a corpus of experts all around
the world that are trying to contain the side and after-effects of it, the
economy taking a huge hit and its ripples flowing through the fabric of our
society _is part of this crisis_ and would be of any major outbreak.

~~~
whb07
The fact is we don’t have any facts.

Then there’s the fact that everyone replying to me are wielding the unknown as
truths and pointing at China and Italy while at the same time disregarding
literally the other 2 billion people in the area who haven’t had any of the
average-to-worst case scenarios depicted by people like yourself.

I’d love to see what the infrastructure looks like in Vietnam, Indonesia,
Thailand and the like and why haven’t we seen the large scale run on hospitals
like everyone’s talking about.

Happen to have any sources?

~~~
lazylizard
Especially from lets say bali eh? Why haven't large numbers of tourists in
bali been stricken with covid 19?

As of 5 feb there were supposed to have been 5000 chinese tourists trapped on
bali after flights were halted.. [https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-
asia/indonesia-to-stop-...](https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-
asia/indonesia-to-stop-flights-to-and-from-china-amid-wuhan-virus-concerns)

------
fyp
China has shown that it's possible to contain the virus even though they were
initially criticized for it being "draconian".

They've capped out at under 100k cases (at least for the first wave) with 3k
deaths:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2020_coronavirus_patients...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2020_coronavirus_patients_in_China.svg)

Imagine if china had gone for the herd immunity strategy instead. With a
population of 1.4billion and letting everyone get infected you are looking at
_42 million deaths_.

If draconian measures is what it takes, that is what the world should do.

~~~
azepoi
China had no choice left because they suppressed and censored the epidemy. But
after that strong measures were necessary. Other countries could have opted
for the Korean or Taiwanese strategy: test early, often and broadly +
quarantine suspected cases.

But it's too late for that in most countries now. Confinement it is!

~~~
cjhopman
It's kind of racist to describe the chinese response as suppressing and
censoring and then for others its, "well woops, we were a little slow on
response".

~~~
pwinnski
The Chinese government silenced the doctor first raising the issue and blocked
him from communicating about the disease. If other countries do that, then
they will also be suppressing and censoring. Have other countries done that?

~~~
cjhopman
Well, by definition there's only one doctor in the world that first raised the
issue. Other countries have done similar things.

Ex. USA

\- silenced one of the NIH's director of infectious disease only allowing him
to say what the government wanted

\- released propaganda and misinformation from the highest levels downplaying
the severity

\- prohibited doctors from testing people to keep the confirmed numbers low

idk, i'm sure you could find more. I'd describe the US' response more
critically than the chinese. The US already knew how bad it was, and the poor
behavior was from the top of government, not just some local body.

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pubkraal
It seems a lot of the media is focused on the fact that people are being
exposed to the virus. However, the Dutch are adopting a controlled way of
doing this while protecting those at risk. All measures to limit contact are
in place, in a big departure from what others who claim "herd immunity" are
doing.

Any comparison to the (previously?) British approach where in the weekend even
concerts weren't cancelled and people are still being forced to go to the
office by their employers doesn't quite hit the mark.

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leto_ii
It's not yet clear to me if there's a difference between what Rutte proposed
and the 'flatten the curve' strategy. Isn't it the same thing by a different
name?

If that's the case then they're aiming for something better controlled than in
the UK, where they seem to still be in denial.

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RickJWagner
Man, what a pickle.

Every country, every world leader, is faced with agonizing decisions. All are
shades of right/wrong. All are simply trying to do the best job they can.

Not an easy time for anyone.

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lazylizard
S.korea, taiwan, singapore...are not "locked down" either eh?

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onyva
They’ve just reverted.

~~~
onyva
That was the UK, not NL.

