
No feigning surprise - sndean
https://jvns.ca/blog/2017/04/27/no-feigning-surprise/
======
jancsika
> A key trick here is to not act surprised even if you’re actually surprised.
> (because whether you’re performing surprise or just genuinely a bit
> surprised, it has the same negative effect!)

I think you mean "show surprise" rather than "feigning surprise". "Feign"
means "to pretend", while people who express genuine surprise are still
"showing" surprise.

~~~
matthewwiese
I'm glad somebody else noticed the incorrect use of `feign.`

If anything, if one feigns surprise, they are acting in bad faith. I agree
with the title of the article -- don't feign surprise, e.g. if somebody gives
you a gift you knew was coming and pretend you're baffled by its appearance --
but _do_ show surprise when someone you know who is intelligent is missing a
small puzzle piece in their knowledge space.

Not in a belligerent way, of course, as the author points out: use it as an
opportunity to educate. I ain't about to berate a friend of mine for not
knowing something, but it would be _quite disingenuous_ to hide my surprise;
in my eyes, that's comparable to talking down to them.

~~~
skybrian
I think the author was using "feign" to mean "express in a negative way" \-
focus on what it looks like, not how honest it is. At the point where someone
is saying "how can you not know that" they've already gone beyond their
immediate honest reaction into moral judgement.

~~~
matthewwiese
Oh I no doubt understood the author's intentions with using feign in that
manner. However, that does not mean it was the correct term to use, despite
what we may "feel" or "get" from it; nevertheless, troubling ourselves with
such a minor detail is really rather ridiculous. Besides, if we go any
further, conversation on this runs the risk of igniting a rather banal
descriptivist/prescriptivist flame war. :)

The closest term to describe what the author meant is I believe a _litote_ :
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litotes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litotes)

~~~
edzorg
I think this is a good example of a 'well, actually.'
[https://www.recurse.com/manual#sec-
environment](https://www.recurse.com/manual#sec-environment)

~~~
jancsika
I'm not grandstanding. I can prove it by admitting I still don't understand
the rule:

If a newcomer expresses genuine surprise, are they breaking the "No feigning
surprise" rule or not?

edit: typo

------
furyofantares
Surprise is a mechanism that alerts you that your understanding of the world
doesn't match observation -- it informs you that either your expectation was
in error or your observation was.

You should not be surprised to often be surprised about others' understanding
-- the typical mind bias means our models of others track far more closely to
our own internal state than reality.

It can make sense to confirm the observation -- "you don't know about X?" \--
but you don't have to do it condescendingly. You can do it in an excited
manner, both in tone and in words: "You don't know about X? Awesome, I didn't
know I was going to get to tell someone about X today!"

This is easier done once you train yourself to notice surprise as being a
signal about your own ignorance rather than being about the other person, and
once you know to expect such surprises.

------
chroma
I think it's wrong to feign any reaction when others expect sincerity, but I
also think this post causes more harm than good. Let me explain.

First: _Feigned_ surprise is rare. I've never done it. I doubt the author has
ever done it. What is far more common is _genuine_ surprise. I've definitely
been surprised by others' knowledge gaps. Heck, I've been surprised to
discover my own ignorance in some areas. (eg: thinking, "How did I get this
far in my career without knowing Python's defaultdict!?")

Second: Without access to someone's internal mind-state, you cannot reliably
tell the difference between a feigned response and a genuine one. You may
think you're able to, but the main factors in such judgements are your own
biases.

This inaccuracy combined with the rarity of feigned responses means that
people are far more likely to judge genuine surprise as feigned, and condemn
someone who is acting in good faith (albeit impulsively).

More useful advice would be: Don't get upset if someone is surprised you don't
know something. If anything, take it as a compliment. It means they have high
expectations of your level of technical knowledge. eg: I wouldn't be surprised
to discover that my mother doesn't know to use git, but I would be surprised
to discover that about a coworker.

~~~
scandox
I think feigned surprise is exceptionally common. Your description of it makes
it seem like a very thought out or premeditated behaviour. The kind of
"feigning" the author is referring to is a reflex behaviour. If you confronted
a feigner of surprise immediately afterwards they might be genuinely unable to
say truthfully if they were really surprised or just reacted with surprise to
satisfy an inner desire to assert the superiority of their knowledge. Such
behaviours have strong roots in childhood and often a rational adult who has
it brought to their attention will easily be able to never do it again.

But it really is quite common in my experience.

~~~
kurthr
What I find strange about your argument is that _" a feigner of surprise
immediately afterwards they might be genuinely unable to say truthfully if
they were really surprised or just reacted with surprise to satisfy an inner
desire"_, implies that you don't believe you can know whether others are
feigning surprise or even really yourself!

The best argument you have, from your experience, is that you often feign
surprise, which I find a bit damning, if you then ascribe that behavior to
others. I can't remember feigning surprise, but I definitely remember being
horrified at being forced to argue about something rather elementary. If it
doesn't affect me directly, I'm more likely to simply ignore the person's
argument and go my way.

edit: to be clear I get no satisfaction in seeing other people make obvious
mistakes... it's almost physically painful.

~~~
scandox
Well I don't think people have as much "clean" access to their own behaviour
and thoughts, as is generally thought. By thinking about our thoughts, we
alter them. So that's why no-one can be crystal clear about their own
motivations.

I don't confess to feigning surprise in my comment. I believe it is very
common, purely from observation of others - especially children and young
adults.

~~~
kurthr
OK, you don't apply Bayesian priors to other's behavior based on your own
internal knowledge. I'm not sure why you have much confidence in the analysis,
then. See the second argument of _chroma_.

~~~
scandox
What's a Bayesian prior?

~~~
StavrosK
I guess they mean "how likely it is that they know something just because you
know it".

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dec0dedab0de
I never feign surprise, but there are plenty of times where I am actually
surprised, and should keep it to myself. Part of the issue is that I
Absolutely love when someone else is surprised I don't know something. It
usually means they're going to tell me something that they feel somewhat
pationately about. I forget that not everyone is the same.

------
andreyf
This rule always struck me as a bit fundamentally blind to and micro-managing
of human interaction. Why would someone ever feign surprise? I feel like I
rarely feel the need to feign emotions and surprise have never been one of
them.

~~~
patio11
It's a learned behavior, similar to how repeating memes is also a learned
behavior. People use it for various purposes (signaling ingroup membership,
belittling others, etc) and for no particular purpose at all, just like people
often say things for no deep reason at all.

I believe that considered reflection of all of your expressions of emotion in
a day is highly likely to come up with many which are for purposes other than
desire to express that emotion. Many of them are culturally ingrained, much
like (for some folks) feigned disguise is culturally ingrained or for other
folks feigned distaste when a tribal enemy is mentioned is culturally
ingrained.

A common emotional response you almost certainly fake without every thinking
you're faking: how would you answer someone who asked "How are you doing
today?" Virtually no one who is socially well-adjusted has a wide range of
responses to that question despite there being a wide range of emotional
states in life.

(I have fairly developed thoughts on the question of modulating emotional
response to fit into a particular culture because of deep necessity to get
better at it, including taking formal classes, at different points in my
life.)

~~~
andreyf
> signaling ingroup membership, belittling others, etc

Good call. I'm certainly not an authority on being well-adjusted, but for me
personally, those sound like seeds planted in insincerity leading to a varied
bouquet of suffering. In the context of creating a sense of community around
us, we are better off if we learn to strive to act thoughtfully and sincerely
from a young age, and encourage others who do likewise. I'd much prefer this
rule to be a minor counter-example beneath "empower others".

Answering sincerely-yet-appropriately to "How are you?" isn't trivial, but
it's worth it. In the past week, I've responded with a wide variety of sighs
(to friends), "ok. I'm ok." (to a doctor who I was seeing after being kept
awake by excruciating pain), "right now? good, happy to see you!" (to a less
frequently seen acquaintance), "oy, don't ask, there's a line. but I'm looking
forward to this porkbelly!" (to a grocer).

I imagine I might come off as a brash American if I were to try what I
perceive as sincerity in more reserved cultures, but in middle class America
it seems to work at-least-OK :-)

------
ape4
You don't know not to feign surprise?!

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psyc
Fine, but you can't just slip in a tut-tut about expressing genuine surprise,
in a post titled "No Feigning Surprise."

I express emotions. It's honest. It lets people know what I really think, and
what I really care about. If I lose my shit when you say you never saw Fight
Club, that's my way of telling you how much I loved it.

------
wfunction
Yeah. But I'll point out that this assumes that person doesn't have
responsibility to go with it. You _should_ be surprised if your CEO didn't
know what supply and demand are (unless you have a small company and no else
one in your company does either, I guess). You _should_ be surprised if your
boss doesn't know who works under him. You _should_ be surprised if your prof
doesn't know what concepts he's supposed to be teaching. You _should_ be
surprised if your doctor prescribes antibiotics for a viral infection. The
list goes on and on...

~~~
oconnor663
The principle isn't about when you should _feel_ surprised. It's about when
you should show it.

------
CosmicShadow
I can't believe how many comments there are here nitpicking the misuse of
feign or not actually understanding the lesson of don't be a douche because
someone doesn't know something you assumed everybody knew. All folks don't
know something that seems common knowledge and you are a dick if you over-
react to make them feel bad, so try to be a better person and not do that.

I feel like it should be pretty easy to understand the core lesson she is
trying to teach if you read the entire post even without her using the exact
proper words. The xkcd comic at the end drives it home.

------
js2
There's a parallel to this of course: don't be afraid to ask questions when
you don't know something.

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gooseyard
even more socially savvy than "don't feign surprise" is "don't ask questions
that might lead to answers that might lead the asker to feign surprise". In
any situation where you're assuming the role of teacher, assume that the
answer to any "do you know about ..." question is always no. It's much easier
to preface a question with "forgive me if you already know this but ...", than
to go through the feigned surprise song and dance.

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microcolonel
The recurse center seems like an unpleasant and pedantic place, but I guess to
each one's own. Their documentation seems to assume that impostor syndrome is
a _bad_ thing because it _feels bad_ , I don't think things are that clear-cut
in life.

I just don't see why organizations feel like _anything_ is helped by
attempting to police social behaviour.

~~~
psyc
If they were really interested in reducing condescension and ego-tripping, a
great place to start would be "No nannying other adults."

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Neliquat
This is good for techie types like me who unintentionally talk down to people
in ways like this.

~~~
Grue3
What about non-techie types who are suprised you won't just make a website for
them (for free) in one day, or that you aren't an expect in all things tech by
the sole virtue of being a programmer. Or, not being able to do mental
arithmetic very well when you tell them you're a mathematician.

~~~
exolymph
What's stopping you from explaining the reasons sincerely? E.g. "I know how to
make a website, but it can still be time-consuming, and that's work that I'm
usually paid for. You are asking for a bigger favor than you realize."

