
On 5th anniversary of Snowden leak, Michigan effectively bans the NSA - randrand
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/technology/on-5th-anniversary-of-snowden-leak-michigan-effectively-bans-the-nsa
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w_t_payne
It feels like we are collectively missing the point.

The problem isn't so much that governments are spying on their citizens so
intrusively: It is that they are _able_ to spy so intrusively.

Another thing: Anything the NSA can do the mafia can do also, albeit on a
smaller scale. Regulating the NSA will do nothing to stop other actors,
including some decidedly unpleasant ones.

This is a far bigger problem for technology than it is for government.

Why are we making technology with so many gaping vulnerabilities?

Surely there is something wrong with the way we develop software and hardware
if it is so easy for us to ship vulnerable systems and so hard for us to
secure the systems that we have already shipped.

This is a hard problem to solve, but until we put our man-pants on and face up
to it, then we remain stuck.

Everything else solves only a tiny fraction of the problem, and mostly serves
only as a distraction from the central issue: The technical challenge of
making systems and software that we can trust.

~~~
jessaustin
The mafia rarely performs parallel constructions to get innocents thrown in
prison.

~~~
AstralStorm
True, they just erase people, destroy careers, blackmail etc.

~~~
travmatt
I can’t tell which group you’re referring to.

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jessaustin
Thank goodness the Brookings Institute had the foresight to hire a lawyer who
could tell this reporter that NSA is great and this law is terrible and also
this law won't affect NSA at all.

~~~
ghostbrainalpha
That is nice. But it sucks how misleading this title is. I would have
completely missed this part of the article until you pointed it out.

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jessaustin
One of the two of us could stand to make our irony a bit more obvious.

Brookings Institute poses as a "centrist non-partisan think tank", but as we
see here is really just a sock puppet for the military-industrial complex,
among other evil plutocratic interests. Like lots of "centrist non-partisan"
organizations.

~~~
mmirate
Sorry for the pedantry, but ... this isn't a lie _per se_ , rather usage of
deceptively-meaningless terminology. Specifically, "centrism" of the American
Left-Right dichotomy, is poorly defined.

There are multiple ways to arrive at a balanced compromise between:

* the Left's platform (use government to ensure everyone is fed, entertained, coddled and unoffended); and

* the Right's platform (use government to exert Christian theocracy, and to earn bribes by exerting the largest pocketbooks' wills, even if that means building an empire).

Two notable extremes of such compromise are:

* use government to do everything under the sun, from wealth redistribution to world conquest (cf Horseshoe Theory); and

* don't use government for anything for which it isn't absolutely necessary (cf libertarianism aka classical liberalism).

IMHO classical liberalism is better than nationalist-socialism, and it seems
you agree; but both positions could be described as "centrism" since they lie
between the Left and the Right.

~~~
jessaustin
That seems to be a misrepresentation (not a lie _per se_?) of Horseshoe
Theory? Those of us at the heel don't support world conquest. That is very
much a toe thing. I would countenance a _great_ deal of redistribution in
exchange for a great deal less conquest.

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forapurpose
> the new Michigan law is broader, banning “material support or resources to a
> federal agency to enable it to collect or to facilitate in the collection or
> use of a person's electronic data or metadata,” except if the collection is
> done with informed consent, a warrant, or a legal warrant exception, such as
> instances in which there’s no expectation of privacy.

I wonder about the practical effectiveness of it:

It only covers state and local government agencies (if I understand
correctly). How much surveillance do they perform? Business performs far more
AFAIK. Can they continue to hand over data to the federal government? What
about federal contractors such as Palantir? What about state and local data
sold on the market, such as drivers license and voting information (at least
in many/most states; I don't know about Michigan).

The law makes an exception for _a legal warrant exception, such as instances
in which there 's no expectation of privacy_. 'No expectation of privacy' is,
I understand, how every business gives data to the government and seems to
allow government and business access to everything but a lead-sealed,
windowless, Faraday cage in your house (but the smart power meters can
identify a lot of your activity anyway).

Also, other factors make it seem symbolic:

> The Michigan law doesn't make cooperation with the NSA a crime or outline an
> enforcement mechanism.

and

> passing with a single "no" vote in the legislature

~~~
gnode
> other factors make it seem symbolic

I don't think this is actually true. A single no vote just means that it
wasn't unanimous (but almost so).

As for not defining a crime, much of law (e.g. the constitution) does not
define crimes, but regulations of government which may be enforced by courts.
E.g. the government must not station troops in your house in peacetime (Third
Amendment) or the government must appoint you legal counsel in a trial (Sixth
Amendment).

> The law makes an exception for a legal warrant exception

I also wonder about this, particularly as a lot of the NSA's activities do
have "legal" warrants issued by the secretive FISA court.

~~~
forapurpose
>> other factors make it seem symbolic

> I don't think this is actually true. A single no vote just means that it
> wasn't unanimous (but almost so).

The implication I drew from it was that the bill was uncontroversial. If
security agencies thought it was a threat then I'd expect much more of a
fight, though that would not necessarily happen.

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armenarmen
Michigan

~~~
stochastic_monk
Thank you. The omission of the state’s name is a deliberate clickbait ploy.

[Edit for context: the title of this post and the accompanying article have
both been updated to "Michigan" instead of simply saying that a state had done
so.]

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ScottBurson
Nice to see that even with all the, uh, distractions the Trump Administration
is providing us with, there are still people concerned about the government
spying on its citizens.

I don't know that this law will have more than symbolic effect, but I'm glad
to see it anyway.

