
Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector - Eilene
Hi HN. I’m a journalist who wrote ‘The Lawyer, The Addict’, a story that ran in the New York Times in July.  The story was about my ex-husband, Peter, who was a high-flying powerful partner in Wilson Sonsini (the prestigious, Palo Alto-based law firm) and who died in July 2015, a drug addict. Almost everyone in his life missed the signs. The story wound up with enormous traction and was the 55th most read story in the entire paper in 2017. It also generated several threads of commentary on HN, including  https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=14776864, https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=14931209 and https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=14777919.<p>I’m now writing a book based on that story for Random House. Although it is about what happened to Peter, the broader story is about the problem of substance use (and often abuse) in white-collar professions, where the users are well-off, well-educated, working long hours, often with all the outward trappings of success.<p>What can you tell me about drug use as a professional or in your profession?<p>I know there is drug use in law, finance, medicine and technology, and am hoping that some of you will be open to discussing with me what you  see and what you&#x27;ve experienced in your profession and professional environment. I’d like to use some of your comments in the book and will not know or need to know your names, so I hope you’ll feel comfortable being as candid as possible. I’m not here to make judgements, all I’m looking for is the truth about what’s going on.<p>I&#x27;m interested in whatever you can tell me about drugs you are using or observe being used in
your field: which drugs, what effects you see, any stories you have, any details you can share. Thanks.
======
woah
I would be careful of overestimating the amount of stimulant use based on
comments and emails here. People who use a lot of stimulants tend to love
talking about themselves and often have a belief that anyone successful must
be taking stimulants secretly. It plays into the motivation of most stimulant
users which is that the stimulants have given them a special cheat code in
life.

I worked in construction in my younger years and saw this kind of attitude
from the occasional meth user on the jobsite. I'm seeing more coherent echoes
of it in this thread. Another theme that pops up sometimes is someone who says
that they used to take stimulants and they were super productive, but they
don't anymore, but actually they still do.

~~~
btrettel
I'll second this.

I don't even drink coffee. I've encountered people who seem absolutely
incredulous that I take no stimulants at all. "How do you stay awake?" is
something I'm asked. My go-to response now is "I don't. If I'm tired, I get
more sleep." Some of these people probably think that I'm lying.

There are a lot of people who think that sleeping at work is a bad idea, but I
think it's a lot better than guzzling coffee all day (or taking stronger
things). I wouldn't work at a place that didn't allow me to take a nap if
necessary. It's not uncommon for me to wake up with the solution to whatever
problem I was working on too, so I think it would be wrong to call naps idle
time.

As an example, using spaced repetition memory software and getting enough
sleep is going to be a lot better for your learning than taking aricept and
modafinil. On my PhD quals some people seemed to think I was a wizard for the
things I memorized. No drugs were involved, but I did read a few books on
memory and religiously used spaced repetition software. I wish this attitude
were more common.

~~~
Andrex
As a corollary to the OP, it seems like the people who deliberately _don 't_
take stimulants _also_ love talking about themselves and how it's a superior
lifestyle. :)

Not saying you're wrong, but the sanctimony from both sides can be a little
exhausting is all.

~~~
btrettel
Most people I work with don't know that I don't take stimulants. In fact, it
only ever comes up when I decline coffee from someone. I rarely ever mention
it, and I hope my post did not come across as sanctimonious. Let me know if
and how it did, so I can be more clear in the future. I just wanted to state
my preference and reasoning.

~~~
Chriky
It seems utterly nuts to me that someone could sleep at work as a reasonable
alternative to drinking coffee. Most jobs and workplaces are just not at all
set up to sleep during the working day.

~~~
btrettel
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "not at all set up to sleep during the
working day", but I assume you mean that it would be difficult to find a
comfortable place to sleep.

At a place I worked at previously, I asked if they had any quiet rooms that
would be good to take a nap in. They gave me a key to the lactation room,
which was quiet, dark, and great for taking a nap. As far as I can tell I was
the only person to use that room when I worked there. And I believe the rooms
are required by law for workplaces with a certain number of employees in the
US. (If anyone who was nursing wanted to use the room, I'd gladly leave,
though as I said, the room seemed to be unused.)

At another place I worked at, I'd often take a nap after lunch in the library.
The location was not ideal due to noise, but it was acceptable most of the
time.

Right now I'm in grad school, and I moved a small sofa chair that was being
surplussed into my office. Works great, and I'm not the only person to use it
for taking a nap.

Taking naps at your desk might be okay. For me, it hurts my neck.

Earplugs may be necessary, particularly if you work in an open office. I
probably would not be able to fall asleep so easily in an open office. But you
can ask around to see if there are any private rooms you can use.

~~~
melq
I have worked at several companies of varying sizes, and have never seen a
lactation room. They're certainly not required by law.

I can also say the only place that would have been amenable to workers taking
naps was an academic lab that I worked in during a couple years following my
time at school. Have you worked in the private sector much?

"I wouldn't even consider a job that wouldn't let me nap" is not a realistic
attitude for basically anyone to have outside of a lucky few in tech.

~~~
btrettel
> They're certainly not required by law.

Wikipedia says lactation rooms have been required by US federal law since
2010:

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactation_room#Purpose](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactation_room#Purpose)

> Have you worked in the private sector much?

Not since college. You make a good point here.

I'll keep in mind that this won't be possible everywhere. So far no boss I've
had cared that I took naps as long as I put my time in and was productive. I
have never counted naps as work, just a break. Asking was not a career ending
move in my experience so far, so I know what to do when interviewing. So far I
have argued that taking a nap makes me more productive, with good results.

Additionally, when I worked at a federal government lab, I'd regularly take a
nap in the library during my lunch hour right after eating. I can't see how
any manager could argue against that. I've read of people in private companies
doing the same in their cars.

------
whalesalad
Adderall and Cocaine.

I remember a CEO of one of my early startups would give me 5mg addies to help
me get more done. I appreciated it because it was great to get the added boost
to focus.

I eventually worked my way up to taking 30mg of XR daily (legally, doctor
prescribed) and it was the most productive I have ever been in my life. I
worked 24x7. I was working a normal consulting job while also working on a
startup/app in my spare time. I did ui/ux/frontend/backend/api development and
sent cash overseas for an iOS developer that I managed. None of this would
have been possible without stimulants.

It's only way to do some of the things that the really successful engineers
are doing. You forgo eating, exercise, etc... and spend 110% of your time on
working and chasing the high of getting shit done.

It's not sustainable though. I eventually went cold turkey. I do NOT recommend
that as it will completely ruin your life for 6 months to a year. I was not
productive, I gained tons of weight, my self-confidence went to shit. My life
really went into a downward spiral.

Now I am 100% drug-free and am not at the same level I was back then, but I am
very productive and focused. I would not go back to where I was, even for the
productivity gains. I eat clean (low-carb, ketogenic), weightlift in my
basement, row 5k/10k every few days for cardio. My only vice is really coffee
and the low-carb cocktails on weekends. Best of all, I do not wake up in the
morning needing a tiny pill full of amphetamine salts.

~~~
purerandomness
Seeing a manager go this path, and seeing his productivity plummet, I'm pretty
sure the productivity boost is merely perceived.

There was a story on HN with people trying to microdose on LSD, and the
alleged benefits - long story short, when they asked peers about their
performance, they noticed they're more distracted and not more productive,
while those doing the microdosing thought they're on a super productive trip.

We notice this manager is in a constant state of "brain fog" to a point where
his speech changed (like he's drunk), while I'm pretty sure he thinks he's a
10x machine and wouldn't be able to pull all of his workload off without
drugs.

You get more sick days, you need more time to recharge, while thinking you're
on your absolute productivity peak. And when you crash, you're basically
unemployable / unproductive for 6 months to 1 year.

Not worth it IMHO.

~~~
code_duck
Stimulants are not free energy, that’s for sure - my impression is you get
more done for 2 days, nothing done for 1 and less done for 2 days, making it a
net loss of productivity. So they’re ultimately only useful in short spurts
where haste is needed.

~~~
leetcrew
they're more like an energy loan, and you better believe there's interest.

~~~
copperx
I came to the same conclusion after taking modafinil daily for 5 months. I
quit because I was getting completely drained by 7pm. I had to hit the bed as
soon as I got home, and then slept for 10-12 hours straight. I did the
arithmetic and it wasn't worth it. Supposedly, there isn't such thing as a
"modafinil withdrawal," but I was nonfunctional for about 6 weeks after I left
it cold turkey. Not only that, but because I wasn't aware there was a
withdrawal phase, I thought my symptoms (not being able to wake up,
narcolepsy, nausea) were an ominous sign of an underlying disease.

~~~
sizzle
Yikes, are the effects still lingering? Have you returned to baseline
energy/focus?

~~~
copperx
That was four years ago, and I was back to my baseline self in about two
months.

A month ago I was diagnosed with severe apnea, and since starting treatment I
feel like a different person. I wonder whether the apnea was worsened by
modafinil four years ago, and that was the reason for my constant wearing
down. Maybe I'll do an experiment just to see, but I don't need stimulants
anymore to be productive, not even coffee.

~~~
sizzle
Isn't modafinil/stims a treatment for apnea?

~~~
elialbert
I believe you're thinking of narcolepsy

------
IfOnlyYouKnew
I remember your article. I hope it helps to have the ability to so beautifully
render the tragedy that befell you in words.

I'm in tech. My first experience with drugs other than weed, which I just
don't enjoy, happened relatively late. I was around 30 at the time when I
joined friends of a friend taking MDMA at a club.

I have experienced chronic depression for as long as I can remember. I was
rarely actually "sad", as one might think. I was simply experiencing most
emotions through a sort of fog. The most troubling symptom has always been
what one would just call "extreme laziness". Even though I frequently
attempted all sorts of methods to motivate myself and acquire discipline, I
always failed. Recently, I found a "contract" I made with myself when I must
have been around 12 years old, specifying all sorts of activities such as
sports, reading, and socialising to be completed on a schedule for certain
rewards. Later, I sought help through the medical system. But even though I
tried three different anti-depressants and two therapists, their valiant
efforts failed to make a dent.

After three years of recreational drugs I cannot say that they are the answer
to my problem. But it is certainly an experience that has helped me make some
inroads. Much like learning to bike with training wheels, they gave me an
appreciation of the range of emotions one can experience. Both exhilarating,
all-forgetting thrill, as well as content serenity, were states I only knew
from literature.

I've consumed MDMA, 2CB, LSD, Speed, and Ketamine. I'm staying away from
Cocaine, all opiates, and GHB. I do consume speed at work. The enjoyment of
working in a flow-like state is magnificent, although it comes with its own
downsides, mostly a tendency to dive into time-wasting side-issues. Even
though I have overdone it on multiple occasions, sometimes working for four
days straight, I've have never had trouble not taking anything for a few weeks
when I was travelling, or simply ran out. I've also almost completely stopped
drinking alcohol.

I've been in a joyful relationship for the last five years, and we've used
drugs to find previously unthought-of depts of sexual pleasure.

~~~
Eilene
it was enormously freeing to finally be able to write about what happened to
my family, yes, thank you. I felt like I was living in a John Grisham created
hell, afraid of telling anyone what really happened and instead acting like
Peter was the victim of his own stringent work ethic (which is true and not
true). May I ask you what you do for a living? Are you a developer?

~~~
IfOnlyYouKnew
I earn my living running a small company selling a consumer product online.
The business is mostly automated these days, and my productive time is spend
on two projects in the machine learning space, one focussed on politics and
one on music.

While still in high school, I started a software company selling mostly to
large business and government. It was there that I noticed that I'm incapable
of functioning in a corporate world with multi-year 7-figure projects. So the
next business was deliberately focussed on many, smaller customers, each of
whom I can hang up on if I so feel.

You can email me at anthonyDOTk e m p AT protonmail.ch (remove spaces, replace
DOT with . AT with @) if you have more questions.

~~~
lug0r
did you just dox yourself?

------
neveradmitmyid
There is a population of media developers that are fairly heavy marijuana
users. By 'media developer' I mean animation, VFX, games, and other graphics &
entertainment related type of software. We tend to be older, having been in
graphics and media for 20 to 30 years for most of us pothead graphics junkies.
We have bongs and all the typical pot smoking accessories out in the open at
our offices, and they are in active use throughout the day, from the moment
the day starts.

In general, we are people that write the core software of the renderer, the
simulation, the shaders, the production tools, or other somewhat overly
complex yet creative element of our work. We've been leads for 20 years, at
least. We're all people that enter into deep states of flow when stoned, and
many of us believe the pot is required to quickly enter flow and then stay
there for hours on end as we develop.

We're split between people with pot belly and people that actively work out.
The only consistency of this crowd is we all use pot to isolate ourselves into
our work, and we're working in media production.

Now media production itself drives many people to drugs, simply due to the
pressure of that ever present deadline. I'd like to clarify that the pot
smoking developers I'm talking about typically ignore this pressure, mocking
it, because they have already adopted an obsessive developer lifestyle. These
are basically creative stoners that would work like this anyway, and are glad
to get paid well doing what they love anyway. Also, this is all we do, pretty
much 7 days a week. We're obsessive, the pot seems to aid that obsession, our
employers like our productivity and look the other way towards our open
smoking in the studio.

Personally, I smoke about 1 oz of high grade Indica per week. The typical pot
smoker is 1/8th that.

~~~
Eilene
Do you think that the pot is countering any depression or down feelings that
may come from being isolated for so long each day? That sounds really hard,
even if you really like the work.

~~~
neveradmitmyid
A somewhat odd reoccurring conversation we all have is discussing our dislike
of long periods of not being stoned. I personally feel I get naively
optimistic, and being stoned make me more critical. I am more easy going (too
easy going?) when completely sober, and tend towards obsessive creative
introspection when high. It is not a rare topic, the discussion of our long
term heavy use, for those of us that are more health minded. In addition to my
heavy smoking, I ironically am a marathon runner too.

~~~
Eilene
Do you all discuss the heavy use because you're concerned about the toll it
could take on your lungs, in the same way you might be concerned if it was
tobacco? or is it more than that? (also I can't believe you can run marathons
and smoke that much!)

~~~
neveradmitmyid
It's split between discussions of physical health and mental health. General
consensus towards physical seems to be between belief they are a bit less than
cigarettes to surprise and interest in pot being significantly less harmful,
somewhat similar to a typical city's smog. Discussions of the mental impact
are concession we all achieve flow and greater life stability from the high.
Perhaps there is a general tendency towards mild hyperactivity among us, and
we're a leveling self medicated crowd that all happened to be around when
entertainment went digital. We all certainly know one another, at the multiple
studios, now spread out globally. Over the last few decades we've worked at
all the major animation/vfx/game studios.

Also, getting high is much, much less smoke than 1 cigarette, sorta. The hits,
the draws, are much larger, but in 1-2 minutes you're done. Versus a cigarette
is 15 to 20 draws over 5-7 minutes. Getting high 10 times a day is about the
same as 2-3 cigarettes. Whereas a cigarette smoker goes though 10-20
cigarettes per day.

------
nathan_long
Glad you're looking into this.

As a counterpoint: I've been a developer 10 years. I've worked at a few
established businesses, two startups (one U.S. based and one German), and two
consultancies. I worked in-person in Charlotte, N.C. and remotely since then.
I've never worked in Silicon Valley.

One employer had a "play hard" culture, encouraging alcohol (ab)use outside of
work. I didn't stay there long.

Perhaps I've self-selected based on my values (I don't work overtime), but
I've never heard drug use condoned in any of those places, or at conferences
I've attended. And I've often heard overwork spoken of as counter-productive
and exploitative, as a thing that wise coders avoid.

I was not aware that "drug use as a programming aid" existed in the industry,
though, human nature being what it is, I'm not shocked.

Just a caution that this shouldn't be portrayed as if it's ubiquitous without
statistical evidence of that.

~~~
Eilene
a problem for me, as a reporter, is the lack of statistical evidence of any
kind for this. It's very difficult to get an accurate portrayal of the problem
based on surveys that would require self-reports. That's why forums like these
are helpful in informing my reporting.

~~~
Superpangloss
There are reports of cocaine being detected in waste water (1). You could
approach water companies to see how granular their data is. Perhaps you can
see that there are peaks of coke in the sewers near Wall Street or Madison
Avenue.

[1] [http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/cocaine-
use-i...](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/cocaine-use-in-
britain-so-high-it-has-contaminated-our-drinking-water-report-
shows-9350477.html)

~~~
IkmoIkmo
You'd probably just get a heatmap where there is little use of water. i.e. a
single individual doing cocaine in a suburb would show far greater
concentrations than 100 people doing cocaine at a rave at some farm that's
irrigated on a daily basis, or 100 people doing cocaine at a wall street
office party above a bunch of laundromat companies.

------
economics2008
I'm a New York-based finance professional (former investment banker turned
private equity investor) with a background using a wide variety of drugs, but
mostly heroin. Besides heavy drinking and rare cocaine use among younger peers
(analysts), I didn't see a lot of substance abuse. I often felt quite alone,
especially in using my drugs of choice.

I started using heroin right after I graduated high school, and used it
throughout undergrad, as it honestly helped me get better grades by quieting
the turmoil in my mind. I experimented with suboxone and methadone after
graduation, and was using a mix of methadone, Provigil (a stimulant, to
counteract the drowsiness from the methadone), and alprazolam (to take the
edge off the Provigil) when I started my first banking job in NY. I was let go
for nodding off at work.

At my next job, I started using heroin again after a brief period being drug-
free, and started injecting. I had a short-lived job at another investment
bank, where I injected heroin, cocaine, or a mix of both pretty much all day
at work, even setting up a way to do it at my desk discreetly to avoid having
to get up and go to the restroom so often. That job obviously did not last
long.

I used like that for a few months, got another job at a bank, and stopped
those drugs, but continued to seek prescription painkillers sporadically, and
drink to take the edge off. I managed to keep it together for that job, but my
overall demeanor made it tough to really succeed. Before starting in private
equity, I got sober (no controlled substances or alcohol anymore), and have
been sober since mid-2012. It's been the biggest and best decision of my life.

I used to think I was perhaps one of just a handful of finance professionals
with as intense background in hard drugs, but I'm coming to see there are too
many of us out there.

~~~
majos
Serious question, how did you obtain a series of banking jobs after previous
employers noticed (fired you for?) your drug use? Do prospective employers
overlook these things, or never check references?

~~~
mi100hael
A lot of times, previous employers won't actually say anything during a
reference-check other than to confirm dates of employment.

However asinine, they risk a lawsuit if they say something negative and the
candidate doesn't get hired, and there's no benefit to themselves being
forthcoming.

------
tjansen
Wow, this discussion is mindblowing. Working in software dev for 20 years, in
Germany, and I have never seen any developer taking any stimulants. But maybe
this is because only my first job was at a young startup, and I quickly
learned that working 24/7 just isn't for me and I need a more stable
environment.

Today, the way whalesalad and others describe the effect of Adderall sounds
interesting to me, but I would never take the risk. I want to see my kids grow
up, and I certainly wouldn't give this up just to be able to work more
hours...

~~~
IntronExon
I would apply a grain of salt to the claims of people who are avid drug users,
as to the popularity of drugs. There is an incredibly strong “birds of a
feather flock together,” effect at play. The social circles of people who
think they need drugs to do their job are going to only minimally overlap with
people who find that notion crazy and dangerous.

~~~
Eilene
So it's two separate cultures at work in the same industry--people who pretty
much have no experience or want of drugs and a culture of using drugs, trying
lots of things to get a productivity and efficiency boost?

~~~
IntronExon
It’s not just in the industry, it’s probably from high school or uni, but yeah
you have the idea.

------
Blahah
I am open to discussing this in raw detail - contact in my profile.

Most programmers, scientists, people in finance and startups I know take a lot
of stimulants. I take a lot of stimulants.

[Edit - as others have pointed out, there's a strong selection bias going on
here. I actively seek out people who I know take stimulants, and we naturally
congregate socially based on a bunch of subtle and explicit cues that signal
we are safe to talk to about this kind of thing. My experience is not a random
sample - I'm just responding to the request in the OP]

I have pretty severe ADD, so I take ritalin. Initially it was on prescription,
but then I realised it was actually easier and cheaper to just get it from
other sources.

I was pretty productive before because I developed a bunch of working
practices that mostly contained the ADD, but with ritalin... I feel
superhuman. And to be honest I can output an order of magnitude more and
better than most people when I'm up. I recently moved to Berlin, where
_everyone_ is up all the time. Like, I know people who founded or are working
for hundreds of businesses. Everyone, every single person, is up all the time.
Adderall, dexedrine, ritalin, plain old speed paste, cocaine, kratom,
modafinil. LSD or MDMA microdosing. Everyone works best when they are up. Then
on the flip side, xanax, zopiclone, diazepam help control the wiredness and
allow you to sleep when you want. Everyone is doing this. I know it's the same
in London and New York.

If I have a good week, I generally will take perhaps 30mg Adderall IR a day,
or 50mg Ritalin IR. If I need to brainstorm or deliver something with someone
we order whatever (stimulants are delivered within 15-30 min by taxi here) and
work through the night to get stuff done. This is normal. It's strange to me
to see this being described as a problem because... it's not a problem. It is
fairly low risk (compared to e.g. binge drinking) and it completely transforms
your ability to work. It's so normal to me that I don't hide it from anyone
and nobody ever complained. I meet random people, like undergraduate students
from the USA who are visiting, and they are in exactly the same routine.
Everyone works best with stimulants.

~~~
cryoshon
chiming in here to corroborate that stimulant use/abuse is heavily prevalent
in scientists and startup types that i know.

even the md/phd types who have been in clinical practice for 20 years do it,
even after they've had kids etc. most only abuse coffee-- you can tell because
the norm is to drink coffee until you're literally red in the face when there
is serious work to get done. there are people who abstain, of course. they
aren't looked down on, but they're probably not as productive on average.

coffee isn't bad at all. but plenty of others use/abuse prescription
stimulants too, usually a bit more clandestinely in my experience. but if you
know what to look for it's easy to tell when they're on them.

it makes sense. the point where people need stimulants the most is in
synthesizing experimental insights into new hypotheses in light of other
literature. it takes a lot of brainpower to keep trucking... you can take a
crack at it without stimulants, but you'll run out of steam quickly.

as far as the downside, a handful of people binge drink to come down, but it
isn't the norm, except during social events. there are a few who smoke weed /
take xanax at work to calm down, but these are frowned upon somewhat.

~~~
Eilene
So is it almost impossible to be a top scientist in your field if you don't
get some help so that you can have those epiphany-producing insights, etc?

~~~
geofft
I... doubt that's true. I imagine there are people who think that this help
will help them become top scientists (and maybe we should have a talk about
the pressure to succeed etc.). But I suspect that a lot of the actual top
scientists are plain good at what they do, and they neither need nor want the
effects of drugs in their work.

(Which is very different from recreational use, of course, or recreational use
turning into addiction.)

~~~
Eilene
Part of what I'm trying to determine is if that pressure to succeed makes
people believe they need something to be competitive. My daughter, for
example, sometimes feels like she's at a disadvantage at college because so
many of her peers are taking adderall (w/o a prescription) for tests and
studying. Is it the same after college, professionally?

~~~
cgiles
IME, in academic biology, the answer is generally no. Personally, I do use,
but it isn't a result of competition, but rather a desire to achieve the most
I can for a goal I care about. I don't feel pressured in any way to make this
decision; if anything, the pressure is slightly in the other direction.

The big trouble with it is that a drug -- any drug -- will alter your
perception of the world such that it is difficult to know with absolute
confidence whether you are taking the drug for purely rational reasons to
further your personal goals...or not.

Amphetamines at least, based on my experience and reading of the literature,
improve your ability to do huge amounts of light/easy work at the expense of
"deep" thinking. This means that they would be most effective for people who
are knee-deep in work that is too easy for them and need to get more
throughput. Undergrad is exactly this -- tons of relatively easy work.
Professional life is not; quality is in the long term valued over shitty
quantity.

I hope your article won't be a complete hatchet job on white-collar drug use
-- the reality is very complex. Humans in general, and white-collar workers in
particular, are living in environments and doing things extremely different
from what humans evolved for. Thus, some of us use drugs to tweak our biology
to adapt to the situation. Assuming that these do in fact improve performance
-- a very disputable assumption -- this would be a success story for human
intelligence and adaptability.

~~~
Eilene
I don't want to do a hatchet job on white collar drug use, no. I want to learn
what's actually being used, the extent of the use and then draw some meaning
from that, meaning that doesn't intend to say whether the use is bad or good
but just why it exists and what that might mean about work culture, society,
etc. If you'd be open to talking more about this separately, pls email me at
zimmermaneilene@gmail.com. Thanks.

------
raphlinus
I'll add a data point, though it's almost entirely negative. I've been at
Google over 10 years and have yet to come across a person using illegal hard
drugs. I can think of three people with serious drinking problems. There's
been a drinking culture (many offices have beer on tap), but I see that
changing, as people are more conscious of the negative effects. A bunch of
people use marijuana, but off-hours.

I haven't seen people seriously discussing stimulants (such as Adderall and
modafinil) as performance enhancers; I've come across a number of people using
these, but all in the context of diagnosed ADHD. I've also not seen anyone
experimenting with microdosing LSD.

There's a surprising amount of openness and support for talking about mental
health issues in general. I think this is a really good thing. The
stigmatization we see in broader society is not actually helpful.

Obviously this is all my personal observation, but I think I would know; I
definitely saw some serious drug use when I was in grad school at Berkeley.

~~~
davidsong
Is it that because you don't use drugs, the people who do use them tend not to
discuss them with you? I was just joking with a colleague about trying the gas
and air when his wife gives birth, and everyone in our bank of desks thought
that would be outrageous behaviour.

There's no way I'd admit to these guys that I have a load of N2O canisters
stashed at home and will go full-balloonatic during festival season, let alone
anything else I may or may not get up to.

~~~
raphlinus
I don't think that's true, though I fully admit there's some sample bias
(including the fact that I'm senior, as croshan points out). I know a lot of
people that do drugs, I had no trouble observing that when I was in grad
school, and people talk to me quite a bit about life issues.

~~~
linuxps2
To add a counterpoint - there isn't anything on the line in grad school when
sharing stories of drug use... completely different ballgame in the
professional world. I've only had one coworker where we mutually admitted to
smoking weed and that was because we were talking about music and each threw
out a couple names that, well, I don't think there are too many sober people
listening to it and we both happened to live in Colorado. In my 6 years that's
one person I've told about a drug that is legal where we live - god forbit I
tell them about my LSD, coke, nitrous, MDMA, etc usage as benign and
recreational as it is. I'd open up about pretty much anything else before that
- family issues/etc aren't going to get me fired for discussing

------
jfv
Drug abuse is not a big issue in SV in general. There are a few general
themes:

1) Some startups have a heavy-drinking bro-y environment.

2) Weed is common outside of work (in all of SF)

3) As part of the burning man culture a lot of people will occasionally let
loose all weekend with molly, LSD, shrooms, and anything else you’d expect at
BM

4) Some people will use adderall/modanfil to stay productive during work.

5) People in SV are willing to try new, untested drugs more than in any other
culture I’ve seen, besides MIT.

In summary, I never expect to see someone jonesing in SV. It’s overall a
responsible drug culture, not like what I’ve seen with my medical/finance
friends. In NY it’s not uncommon to hear ‘I _need_ some coke’ but I never got
that sense in SV.

~~~
PedroBatista
After all that.. "not big issue in SV"

~~~
jfv
I’d say having virtually nobody dying of overdoses, going through withdrawals
or detox, or being dependent makes it not a big issue, yes.

------
CryoLogic
I worked in a very toxic post-series-A tech startup trying to get acquired. We
where all expected to work 8am-10pm and the CEO would always tell us that if
we wanted to move up in the company we needed to work weekends as well. Just a
15 minute break would get you a lecture on work ethic from one of the upper-
management who really micromanaged engineers.

After about a year there I learned about half my team was taking Adderall to
keep up. After a two week stint of working until 11am every day of the week I
got called back into the office at 12:00 midnight by the CEO and the next day
I had to call in sick because I was shivering and cold because of sleep
depravation. I started putting out resumes that day.

~~~
iooi
I wish there was a culture of naming and shaming these companies and
executives. This is the sort of behavior that would be really easy for
engineers to abolish by simply not working there.

~~~
kelnos
Unfortunately, doing so can be a risk. If the target of such comments gets
wind of it, they could easily sue for defamation or libel, and possibly even
win, given that it's probably hard to back up a lot of these accusations in a
way that would hold up in court.

~~~
sanderjd
That sounds doubtful to me. I'm not a lawyer (and I don't think it sounds like
you are either?) but at least in the US, my understanding is that courts grant
quite a bit of latitude to people speaking freely about their own experiences.
I don't really know though, but I would definitely be surprised (and incensed)
to find out that this is a widespread problem.

~~~
kelnos
I wouldn't be surprised at all, and at the end of the day you can sue for
anything, even if you don't believe you can win. Mounting a successful defense
costs money, even if the claims are without merit.

~~~
sanderjd
Oh sure, you can sue for anything, and defending yourself is expensive. This
is a problem in general, but not one worth worrying about in practice (will I
get sued for writing this comment - I _could_!), but I'm a lot more interested
in this part of your comment:

> and possibly even win, given that it's probably hard to back up a lot of
> these accusations in a way that would hold up in court

Assuming I didn't sign any explicit agreement (like as part of a settlement),
if I say, "I did not find X to be a good employer because of Y", I do not
believe it is necessary to prove Y in court in order to win a defamation suit.

But we're both guessing. I would say that your side would be easier to find
evidence of, though, if you're right: do you know of, or can you find,
examples of this sort of suit being brought and won?

------
DanielBMarkham
There are several topics here that are related in this community.

1) Hacking your mind/body through the use of physical/mechanical environment
changes: meditation, exercise, diet, and so forth. A lot of hackers do this.

2) Hacking your mind/body through the use of Over-The-Counter chemicals:
vitamins, minerals, amino acids, roots, nootropics, and so forth. A lot of
hackers do this.

3) Hacking your mind/body through the use of prescription drugs: adderall,
opiates, etc. _Some_ hackers do this, many have probably experimented at one
time or another and walked away. (They are hackers, after all)

4) Classic drug addiction, which is where all the drama is. I've been in the
business a long time and haven't seen a lot of junkies -- but I've seen many
folks who looked unstable one way or another and drugs may have been the
cause. Don't know.

My point is this: the hacking community screws around with stuff, including
their own bodies, all the time. It's the mindset. There are HNers right now
that can tell you to the gram how much protein, carbohydrates, and fiber
they've consumed in the last month, along with providing you a chemical
analysis of their stool. We're an odd bunch.

~~~
unimpressive
This.

I would very much appreciate if the author managed to take a more nuanced view
than darpa_escapee here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16468350](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16468350)

This entire thread is probably being massively selection biased by one crowd
that wants to costly signal their purity by talking about how no one they know
does things in that nebulous 'drugs' category and they would never consider
it. And then it's being selection biased by another set that wants to
countersignal their insight by talking about how actually, _everyone_ secretly
does drugs, how do you think people manage those all nighters, clearly they
sit on a throne of stimulants.

I suspect the reality is less dramatic. ADHD is one of the most common adult
mental disorders, just on this basis alone we should expect a lot of basically
non-abusive stimulant use (and some basically abusive stimulant use, it is an
addictive drug after all). My informal impression is that ADD is more common
than base rate in programmers, I don't have any formal proof of this but the
LessWrong Community survey indicates a rate far above normal.

[http://lesswrong.com/lw/nqa/2016_lesswrong_diaspora_survey_a...](http://lesswrong.com/lw/nqa/2016_lesswrong_diaspora_survey_analysis_part/)

Of course, that almost certainly has other selection biases involved than just
being a computer programmer.

Beyond that you have a large number of people who are higher on Big Five
Openness than normal, and are probably willing to take substances in a
cautious way for benefit. The entire 'nootropics' strain is testimony to this
particular brand of cultural oddity. I suspect these people are distinct from
the sort of people you normally think of as meth junkies.

And then of course, nobody wants to talk about this but even just reading
hacker news you'll get people occasionally come onto anon accounts to discuss
their struggle with heroin or ridiculously unhealthy doses of stimulant drugs.
These people are often invisible because their sort of drug use is _not
fashionable_ , and so it's often assumed that they simply don't exist in
polite society. They of course do, and I suspect their mindset and lifestyle
look different from the groups mentioned above.

------
pnathan
A fair bit of marijuana in the Seattle tech scene. No particularly visible ill
effects from what I can tell. I have the notion hallucinogens _have_ been
used, but no one admits current use (to me). I would expect the more far out
tech scene to be more into hallucinogens than anything else.

Cocaine, meth, & opioid use - no idea. Personally, I'd guess opioids are
uncommon in tech: foggy heads don't fly. No one I know is admitting
cocaine/meth to me.

Of course coffee is extremely common, if it is even worth remarking on. And
booze flows very freely.

I don't get invited to exciting parties to meet the really odd people out of a
professional setting - I go home to the wife & kid. And I work for a big
boring company. So my sample is a little skew.

~~~
walrus01
hallucinogens, sure. There is definitely overlap between the seattle area tech
scene (more so people who live in Seattle proper, not people who live in
Redmond/Kirkland/Issaquah and have a marriage, a mortgage, 2 kids and a
minivan), with tech workers who are also regular Burning Man attendees. At
least to the extent that if a curious person wanted to find a source of
Psilocibe Cubenses mushrooms, they would know who to ask.

~~~
pnathan
I have a personal refusal to ever own a minivan, despite the wife, kid, and
mortgage. :-) I just note that I go home to the family to indicate that I
can't go to the evening events where more interesting people & discussions
are.

------
opportune
I can't believe so many people here think none of their colleagues use
stimulants. If you don't think they do, and you work somewhere that attracts
young competitive people, it's just because nobody told you. I know plenty of
people that take them every day and a smaller group of people that take them
as-needed (if they need/want to do a marathon-session of coding). I don't know
anybody that abuses them, in the sense that they use them to stay up for more
than an all-nighter or who takes unreasonably high doses

I'm both surprised and not surprised that so many people aren't aware of this.
There is a definitely a self-selection effect in that I would guess that
certain demographics (e.g. government contractors in Alabama) have wildly
different cultures compared to SV. Drug users are also very good at knowing
who does and doesn't take drugs (or at least who would be non-judgmental about
them). In part that's because everybody's run into that mormon/teetotal
developer or two who would think you're the devil incarnate if he even knew
how much you drank, let alone did anything else. And even for well-meaning
people who don't abuse drugs, I think they may not know about it simply
because their friends and colleagues don't want to implicitly pressure them
into it or to normalize it for them.

~~~
s73v3r_
I also think that, for me at least, it's because I tend to avoid those high
pressure, perform at all costs companies because, quite frankly, I'm not
interested in that kind of environment. I like doing things outside of work.

------
wcarron
Well, there are recreational and performance-enhancing drugs. The attitudes
about the two types are different.

Coffee, alcohol, nicotine, and pot are all just normalized. Nobody cares. We
chat about it in passing (e.g "so Friday I was high....blah blah rest of
story"). Coffee is perf-enhancing but people treat it recreationally.

The performance stuff is alluded to but not really in any detail. Cocaine,
adderall, ritalin, modafinil are all considered "ok", to some extent. As in,
"ok. You do you, I guess" and it's fine as long as productivity isn't
impacted. Cocaine is definitely the black sheep of that bunch, but it's still
a fairly clean sheep.

Psychedelics/dissociatives are never admitted to, at least where I work. I
have used them (LSD, DXM) but I wouldn't ever consider doing them at work or
on a weeknight. They have little business in programming, I think.

Then, finally, the "white-trash" drugs. I don't know anyone who uses opiates,
meth, crack, PCP, ketamine, kolonopin, etc. RXs are probably being abused more
than I'm aware, but generally, our drug use is pretty elitist. If a poor
person would do these drugs, not-poor people stringently avoid it.

~~~
mnm1
White trash drugs? Benzodiazepines, of which kolonopin is one are used by over
15 million people in the US and over 10 in the UK. It's one of the most widely
used, widely prescribed categories of drugs and kolonopin one of the top
prescribed in the category. And opiates? Who uses opiates who isn't addicted
to them? You think being rich gives you a pass on addiction, and chronic pain?

~~~
wcarron
Woah woah woah. Hold on. I'm most certainly _not_ saying that being well-to-do
somehow makes me (or workers) better. I'm simply saying that __in the
environments I worked in__ (responding to the post), certain drugs were
definitely looked down upon when used recreationally. I called it "white-
trash" as an example. Taking KPins because you actually have a prescription
for something is __not__ what I was talking about. Doing whippets at parties
or smoking crack was.

And, I mean, let's be real here, do _you_ know any programmers who casually do
heroin? I don't, and frankly, even though I sympathize heavily with people who
suffer from addiction, I wouldn't personally associate with a person who does
heroin in their free time.

~~~
tmp-20150107
this is _exactly_ why it took me so long to get help for my heroin problem.
i'm a senior software engineer, but if i admitted to my addiction at work, the
stigma and ostracism from people like you would be awful. fortunately i am now
in a methadone program, due to a manager much more open minded than this...

------
oceanghost
Yes. This is something that needs to be discussed.

Almost every engineer is using some kind of stim in the morning and sedative
in the evening. This can be as benign as caffeine/alcohol, but I've seen this
escalate to any one of: caffeine, Provigil, cocaine, (meth)amphetamines on the
front end, and alcohol, THC, Xanax and even ketamine on the backend.

It's the only way to deal with the abusive hours. We used to joke at a company
I worked at-- that if you weren't an alcoholic, you would be in a couple of
years.

Bad companies, really bad ones are setup like this: you have to break the
rules to get your job done. But some people are blessed by management and
others aren't. X breaks the rules because he's a brilliant leader, Y breaks
the rules because he's a worthless loser. We had a VP and PM doing coke,
fucking each other (very illegal in California), abusing the staff with
bizarre and drug-fuelled behavior, all of which was ignored and encouraged. I
was fired for "writing a rude e-mail." :-)

For a time, there was even a dealer in the buildings mail room. You put in an
order, and in a couple of days, a DHL, FEDEX, etc. comes with your order.

There's a very real human cost to this stuff. I've seen guys have a stroke in
the office due to pressure. If there's any way I can help, let me know.

~~~
Eilene
I'd love to talk to you. Did this happen a long time ago, your experience(s)?
or was this in the last 4 years?

Also, to reiterate, do not need to use your name, etc. Don't even need to know
it to speak to you.

~~~
oceanghost
All recently. I assume the e-mail address listed in your e-mail is an
appropriate contact point?

~~~
Eilene
yes, that's perfect. Thank you.

------
obv_throwaway_
I've made a throwaway account to comment on this, and I've not scanned down
through all the comments so you may already have similar stories.

I am a software developer based in London, UK who uses several stimulants /
drugs in my day-to-day work, I also understand that I am the exception to the
rule and whilst I do use a number of substances for many reasons, there are
very few of my colleagues that do the same - in fact I have very few
colleagues that I work closely with anyway.

To give you some context - I work for a financial group and mostly work on
software to aid their day to day workflows. The simplest terms I can put it in
is that I give a lot of rich city boys the tools to make them a lot of money
and in return they pay me what I consider to be an obscene salary. I spend
most of my days in the basement of one of those buildings in the city, in a
small office, pretty much alone with headphones on and sometimes going days
without actually talking to people. I like it.

I am diagnosed with ADHD which is not as commonly diagnosed in adults in the
UK ( but becoming more commonly reconsised ) - for that I take methylphenidate
( commonly known as Ritalin in the US ) and that helps immensely with focus. I
also vape cannabis regularly that also helps with the focus as my dose wears
off. Sometimes, for those long weekend sessions of coding, I will use LSD.

The effects are - I dont have to loathe myself whilst doing my job. In all
honesty, I hate my job and the people I work for, but at the same time, I got
bills to pay and want to retire at a younger age than most. I also find that
the drugs make me zone-in on a task and I am just able to get it done quicker.
I write significantly better code high, than not.

I'd love to have a story for you, but in all honesty my life is pretty boring
beyond the fact that some of the stuff I have to do is questionable,
especially for those people who might be using online trading software.

Other than that, picture a guy, standing ( yeah, im one of those standing desk
people ) in a small, fairly dimly lit office in the basement of a multi-
billion pound financial bohemoth, with headphones on blasting some music
whilst bashing away at a keyboard and thats pretty much my life.

~~~
Eilene
What is it like for you to work in isolation for so much of the time? Do you
think the cannabis and LSD are only for focus or is some of it for (for lack
of a better word) escape?

~~~
obv_throwaway_
I love it and wouldn't have it any other way. I'm working towards a retirement
that will put me in a place as far away from human contact as possible. I get
a lot of anxiety from being around people so it's kind of perfect for me.

I don't think those drugs are great for escape. I strictly stick to Sativa
strain for cannabis as to not get bogged down with the high and still work.
LSD is only when I need to power through the weekends and it's a pretty small
dose.

------
phyller
I have never known anyone I have worked with to do drugs (in order to aid
work). Doesn't mean they don't, but I hadn't even thought about it until I
read this post. One of the first things I learned in my (albeit young) career
is that my brilliant, complex, I-worked-all-night-to-make-this super code is
total garbage that no one wants to work with. Yes, it's amazing, but if no one
else can understand it or wants to, it's dead in the water.

Making code simpler is more important, being reliable and sustaining a
constantly improving level of code quality is pure gold. This will allow my
team to be more productive, we will get better quality products out faster and
be able to build upon them. I think my natural mind is best suited for the
complex demands required by collaborating with others, thinking deeply, and
turning thoughts into clear, clean, testable and tested code.

Far from wanting to stimulate myself to work more, I'd love to be able to turn
my mind off and relax more quickly, and get a good nights sleep to start again
refreshed. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of coders had a little alcohol in
the evenings, maybe marijuana. The coders I know drink a little (not too much)
and one of them smokes weed. That's it.

I agree with other comments that I think people self-select into different
groups. There are people that take drugs. They hang out with people that take
drugs. Maybe some of them have gotten into coding. There are a _lot_ of people
who don't take drugs, and they usually work with similar people. I don't think
this is a coding vs non-coding thing, but maybe what type of person you turned
out to be in high school. I'd bet most coders aren't the drug-taking type.

~~~
sushid
I've also been at three different startups in the Bay Area (two in SF) and
have never had any drug use going on around me or personally at work. Just the
daily coffee/tea and the occasional beer during the end of the day.

NO one I know uses Adderall to get through the day although I know a few that
have taken it during finals week and or studying for job interviews, and a
decent number (maybe like 10-15% of my friend group) had a year or so with
frequent marijuana use but stopped for various reasons.

------
geekout
I'm 34 years old, I've programmed professionally for 12 years, and I
discovered adderall 4 years ago.

The timing of this couldn't have been more perfect as that's also right when I
landed a role as the sole/lead developer for a profitable internet SaaS
company. A lot of work to be done and nothing but a wide open greenfield to
start tearing through.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the effects that adderall has on
my attention span and ability to churn through code is close to 2 to 3 times
what my ability is without it. When I'm on adderall and focused on coding, I
often find that I can see several steps ahead of where I am now and I cannot
physically code fast enough to keep up with my mind. It feels like I can hold
more variables in my head at once.

Sometimes, when I'm sober, I look at code that I programmed on adderall and
find that my approach to solutions can be designed in completely different
ways than I would have normally.

I never had a very reliable source of adderall, which meant that there were
breaks in my use. This also kept my tolerance relatively low so I never had to
take more than 5-10mg per day to feel the full effect. I noticed during the
sober weeks in between that there is always a significant lull in motivation
that first week before I feel entirely like myself again.

My story with adderall doesn't end well, though. Adderall can affect other
areas of your life (like impulse control) and cause you to do things that
aren't necessarily characteristic of your personality (especially when mixed
with alcohol).

I'd be happy to share more if you'd like. This is a throwaway account for
obvious reasons, and I setup a throwaway email address because this is an
issue I've thought long and hard about. If you're interested, feel free to
reach out (contact info on my profile). I'll check the email for one week.

In summary: the short term benefits of adderall are not worth the longterm
inconsistency or effects on other areas of my life such as mood, sleep, and
anxiety. At least not for me.

~~~
malmsteen
> cause you to do things that aren't necessarily characteristic of your
> personality

Would you mind giving details if it's a throwaway ? My mind went straight to
sexual assault of some sort reading this.

~~~
geekout
Mix with alcohol and impulse control is completely out the window. It never
went to sexual assault (at least not for me) but it certainly makes you open
to philandering behavior. It even normalizes it after a while.

I felt like I adopted more risk prone behavior in general. I felt like I was
routinely redlining my brain and my health. Why go to bed early for tomorrow
morning's meeting when I can pop an adderall before the meeting and feel fine?

------
dekhn
I'm an ex-scientist and software engineer at a major tech company. I consume
cannabis and have for several decades, on a regular basis. I find it helps
tremendously when dealing with long, tedious work (common in software
engineering) as well as being helpful with creativity.

There are positives and negatives; cannabis affects the memory, ability to
concentrate and think, and mood.

One time, my health provider pushed me into a rehab program when I just needed
a prescription refilled. I spent time hanging out with other cannabis
consumers, alcoholics and narcotics addicts. TBH, there was a distinct
difference between the regular cannabis users and the regular users of alcohol
and narcotics (physical, mental and emotional).

I worked for a boss who was very successful but after an injury got addicted
to narcotics/opiates. He had about 4-5 years of unhappy life before he died.
Nobody at the job ever confronted him- they just let him wallow until he died,
because he brought all the money into the department.

Many tech companies and elsewhere seem to have problems with alcohol- too much
of it on site and off site and it leads to abuse and harrassment. Personally,
I wish my company would serve joints or vapes at TGIF instead of crappy beer.

I'm not worried about people knowing I consume cannabis, because it's legal in
my state, I have a medical prescription (it helps tremendously for my
anxiety), I have a long and successful career, and hell, it's CA- 60-75% of
people puff occasionally.

Some people look at my usage and consider it abuse, but I don't. I feel like
I've found a sustainable medicine that's preferable to pharmaceutical
alternatives, and use it responsibly. I expect to raise my kids, retire, and
live to my 80s.

~~~
Eilene
Are you aware of others in your company or at other companies that also use
cannabis as much as you? Or are you aware of people using
narcotics/amphetamines?

~~~
dekhn
Based on my understanding of the Bay Area, where I've worked, my usage is
definitely more frequent and in larger dosages than 99% of employed
individuals, but many people consume cannabis on a semi-regular basis. Dunno
about the narcotics or amphetamines, it's not something I hear about
regularly.

------
anon314159265
I am a successful engineer with a wonderful loving family. I'm also addicted
to hydrocodone. It's been about 7 years. It started I'm sure like many others,
a bad back, a wisdom tooth, and a little slip of paper good for 3 refills. One
day I asked myself what these wonder pills would do for me when I wasn't in
pain. It was instant bliss, like nothing I'd ever imagined life could be. I
confined my indulgence at first to weekends, then a few times a week, then....

I'm at 50mg a day now, down from 100 so there's that. The real junkies will be
laughing at me, and perhaps rightfully so, but I'm not laughing. I've
experienced withdrawal a few times, and never longer than 3 days. Just as
words cannot describe the sensation this drug gives me, it is equally
impossible to explain the nightmare that occurs when my lazy mu-opioid
receptors don't get what they are accustomed to. I keep myself on the edge of
withdrawal all the time, only taking when I'm about to get the shakes, to ward
off the demons for just a few hours more. I have a fighting chance to kick
this thing, unlike many and I realize how lucky I am, but also I know I may
not live long enough to reach my goal.

I'm very good at spotting the fakes, but the fakes are getting better every
year. The sad consequence of the tightening of supply in the past several
years--closing the pill mills, rescheduling, limits on number of prescriptions
a doctor can write--is a sharp increase in the black market price, a surge of
demand from addicts whose doctors have written them off, and a massive
incentive for counterfeits, many containing fentanyl. Prohibition doesn't
work, people are dying. But who cares, right? We're just a bunch of junkies.

I keep a note in my wallet explaining to my family that I love them and that I
am sorry.

------
temp987654
A lot of weed and alcohol. People more curious than that will try LSD,
schrooms, DMT, cocaine, Exctacy and MDMA. And pretty much any other drug they
come across, at least once, except opiates. Never met anyone in IT doing
opiates as far as I know (could be wrong). That is my experience amongst
colleagues under 40 in the IT industry. Doesn't differ much from the other
industry I've been in. None of these people have been effected by their
weekend sins much besides hungovers and a thinner wallet.

------
jacquesm
Where to start.

Living in and growing up in Amsterdam has exposed me to more drug use than I
care to remember. It's pretty ugly when you see super smart people slowly
slide down and eventually enter a period of rapid decline and eventual death.

A few escaped the latter fate but they'll never be the same people. They serve
as very real life reminders for me to never ever even try that stuff.

Some of the ones that died left behind wives and kids, some of them only kids
because they were single parents. It's terrible to see this sort of thing up
close and to realize there isn't anything that you can do about it without at
least a minimum of cooperation from the other party.

I've seen businesses - good businesses - go under because of drug use, I've
seen partnerships go South because of it.

From what I've seen up close cocaine seems to be the hard drug of choice for
the tech scene in NL, it's not nearly as wide-spread as the media would have
you believe but it is a lot larger than what I'm comfortable with and I am
always on the lookout for the signs when evaluating companies.

------
yanslookup
I work for a well known software company now and of the 20 or so developers I
work with closely I can confidently say that 50% of them don't even drink
alcohol (mostly cultural) and the other 45% stick to craft beers and 5% might
smoke some pot here and there but nobody really lets on.

I don't have any data but in my experience the most drug use and abuse has
been in the sales org. My hunch it is a mix of personality type, environment
and the way they are compensated (always a reason to party big) thing but they
are best described as frat houses and make the tech side look like
monasteries. And this isn't just small tech companies. Oracle, Salesforce, AWS
etc.

~~~
Eilene
I assume you've see this sort of thing among those in sales are your company,
yes? Is it coke or all kinds of things? And any idea why? Is sales
particularly stressful or somehow more intense than the tech side of things?

~~~
outsidetheparty
As someone who's also seen this pattern: I'd say the type of personality that
is good at sales just correlates strongly with the type of personality that
enjoys cocaine. Stress level or intensity can be high or low (within limits)
in either occupation.

------
Uhhrrr
I have to tell you, I've been in Silicon Valley for 23 years and I've never
seen anything used at work besides caffeine and maybe a (company-sponsored)
beer on Friday afternoon.

Outside of work, I know tech employees who used pot, LSD, mushrooms, 2cb, and
(in the late 90s especially) MDMA. None of these had significant impact on
their work, although those who did MDMA every weekend seemed a little flaky to
me, even years afterward.

I've known a couple of people who combined intensity and dullness to an extent
which might indicate Adderall usage, although I've also known completely
drugphobic people who come off the same way.

~~~
Eilene
What kind of work do you do?

~~~
Uhhrrr
I have worked as a developer in EDA, educational software, and streaming
video. Mostly writing code in C++ and Java.

------
robg
Please highlight if you can how questions of brain health are often ignored
exactly because people seem productive. Learning to do good work under too
much stress and with too little sleep is a big part of the problem. We
condition ourselves to get the work done, then compensate with drugs and
alcohol. But since we're productive, the latter is not seen as a problem.

The pattern is repeating itself all over top universities and why rates of
brain health concerns and suicides continue to remain high. Those maladaptive
behaviors then carry over to workplaces.

Stress and sleep concerns are independently public health crises, and yet they
are two sides of the same physiological coin - the autonomic nervous system.
And of course, being high on stress makes sleeping that much more difficult.

~~~
Eilene
I completely agree and absolutely intend to discuss that in the book, thank
you. When you say "brain health" do you mean actual neurological changes
taking place in the brain, or underlying mental health issues like depression
and anxiety?

~~~
robg
"When you say "brain health" do you mean actual neurological changes taking
place in the brain, or underlying mental health issues like depression and
anxiety?"

I've been looking closely at this distinction between mind and brain for over
a decade and I have to say the evidence is very thin as to nature vs. nurture
wrt anxiety and depression. Moreover, ask any professed expert about the
differences between chronic stress and "generalized" or otherwise anxiety, on
the one hand, and sleep disturbances and depression on the other. The more
certain they seem of the answer you more you know they are not honest
arbiters.

The most recent work on sleep suggests a glymphatic system that washes toxins
from the brain especially well during sleep. More to your question, the best
work I've seen suggests that many mental health concerns can not be treated
well if there's an underlying sleep disorder.

Taking a step back, if any person is under a lot of stress AND not sleeping
well, and for years on end, the distinction between mind and brain and body
would seem to matter little. They are suffering and in need of serious help
and likely to self-medicate. However, doctors still today do not know how to
treat sleep or stress concerns and specialists are all over the place, from
therapists to neurologists to psychiatrists and behavioral health specialists.

Feel free to reach out to me personally. My contact info is in my profile.

~~~
Eilene
I will reach out, thank you. This is very helpful. Your last paragraph
describes Peter accurately. At some point, all the years of chronic stress,
too little sleep, too many stimulants (even before IV drug abuse) changed him
somehow. I'm not a doctor, but I knew him for almost 30 years and over the
course of a decade or so something profound changed.

~~~
robg
That's the truly crazy thing to me - over a decade if someone was gaining a
lot of weight or had a heart attack or drinking more and more _maybe_ the
people who care would try to stage an intervention. But if it's lack of sleep
and/or too much stress, it's shrugged off as they are so hard working and
productive and dedicated. It's a culture of Type A people and the rewards that
go with that professionally. And now we're raising generations to act the same
way. I'm of the belief that the obesity epidemic is a symptom not a cause.
Food is naturally rewarding and de-stressing.

Back to telomerase (Blackburn won the Nobel) and the glymphatic system
(Nedergaard will win the Nobel). In short, chronic stress causes significant
damage across the body and down to the cellular level. Sleep is the body's way
to recover and the glymphatic system appears to be the cleaning process in the
brain, down to the cellular level. When you have much more damage and
insufficient recovery, something really has changed, like a car driven too
fast, too hard, without oil changes for a decade.

------
7ero
This isn't me. But there is Paul Erdős, who made great contributions to
mathematics. He was known to use amphetamines regularly. He even made a bet
with one of his colleagues on his amphetamine use, betting that he could give
up amphetamines for a month. In which he ended up subsequently winning but
complained that mathematics was set back by one month.

~~~
giardini
Yes, Paul Erdős apparently was capable of using amphetamines without excess. I
don't know how someone would know whether they could prove capable of doing
the same.

Also, at the start of World War II the German soldiers took amphetamines.
Accounts of the invasion of France describe some unusually daring/reckless and
physically daunting tasks that likely, w/o amphetamines, would not have been
done. Staying awake for days seemed to be part of the job:

[https://duckduckgo.com/?q=amphetamines+and+invasion+of+Franc...](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=amphetamines+and+invasion+of+France&t=opera&ia=about)

------
beeskneecaps
I pass no judgement and just wanted to remind people reading through this that
not all techies are doing drugs.

------
drugstorytaway
Adderall, cocaine, caffeine, any number of research stimulants.

disclaimer, I have a long history of drug and alcohol use pre-serious coding,
so it wasn’t coding that got me started but it got me off everything but
stimulants.

I was going for school for something other than computer science and saw it
wasn’t going to get me anywhere. Thusly I turned to adderall and research
chemicals to increase my focus and productivity learning to code. I worked all
day and night, 7 days a week.

For coding, it worked wonderfully. I was able to learn a tremendous amount in
a short time and it opened up many opportunities. However it wreaked havoc on
my personal relationships. I didn’t have any friends, I just worked. I became
a jerk to my then girlfriend.

My work outside of work and heavy use of stimulants came to a holt when we
broke up which led to excessive drug use of all sorts of things from
disassocatives to opiates. Eventually I started microdosing LSD and got over
it, got back to work.

After college it was hard to find adderall and my research stims of choice
weren’t available so I started using cocaine which often tested positive for
amphetamines.

I wasn’t using for my day job, I was using on the weekends to have 24 hour
coding marathons for side projects + prepping for a new job. Using cocaine was
cool for awhile but it led to chronic sinus problems and after a couple months
it became more about using all weekend than getting work done. I quit using
when I noticed strong urges when I got home on, say, a Tuesday night.

Now I have a prescription for adderall and I take it responsibly. It helps me
focus at work and usually take a day off on the weekend or at the least, take
a half dose. A couple of weeks ago I didn’t take it at work because I was
planning on taking it after to work on side project.

Interestingly enough, I had a hellish day wherein I didn’t get much done and
just watched the clock until the end of the day. I was very depressed that
night. I felt so bad I didn’t wind up taking it. Instead I laid around and
watched TV.

I don’t have any plan to get off of adderall but I find the random drug
testing pesky because I like to smoke marijuana to unwind but if I get caught,
I get discharged.

------
tmp-20150107
so, you can browse my comment history [0] for more detail, but here's the
gist:

\- heroin addict for ~20 years, smoking and iv injecting, plus crack cocaine

\- senior software engineer at startup, contributing to open source and
speaking at conferences and meetups

\- now trying to quit, using methadone replacement provided by uk national
health service

my work situation helped by very supportive boss who knows about my problem,
and encouraged me to take steps to fix it when he saw my work was suffering
(time management for things other than 'obtaining heroin' often suffers as a
heroin addict) but not told anyone else.

there was a bad situation at a previous job where i had good health insurance
that enabled me to enter a private rapid detox program (then naltrexone
implants to stop opiates having any effect for the next six months, plus
CBT/counselling) but then my immediate manager got me fired essentially for
completely arbitrary and made up reasons, but i was unable to do anything
about that due to not wanting anyone else to know i was an addict.

various interesting things happened to me while travelling to conferences or
remote customer offices, often in other countries. it's actually fairly easy
to buy heroin on the street anywhere in the world, it turns out, even without
speaking the language.

if you'd like more information, feel free to ask me anything and i'll try and
reply if i can.

0\.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=tmp-20150107](https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=tmp-20150107)

~~~
Eilene
thanks, I'd like to email you to the address in your profile, ok?

~~~
tmp-20150107
no problem...

------
Dowwie
I drink two to three cups of coffee a day. Black. No sweetener. However, I
have a major sweet tooth. Oversized Trader Joe's dark chocolate bars are my
drug of choice. I can eat two or three pieces from a bar a day. I enjoy the
chocolate largely as a dessert after dinner. I find that it doesn't interfere
with my coding.

I have an uncle who destroyed his heart by abusing stimulants to get through
med school, residency, etc. Ultimately, he needed a heart transplant. As a
child, I learned from his mistakes and so my only stimulants in life are sugar
and caffeine.

I am also a pizzaholic. I would eat an entire New Jersey thick crust pizza
under the right circumstances, such as there being a pizza in front of me and
no one there to stop me from eating it all. When I see pizza wasted at a
meeting I cry inside.

I'm 37.

------
tryitnow
Drug use is not a problem in my circle of friends - I have friends who have
done LSD, molly, coke, and countless others. They're all productive and mostly
well-adjusted. This is mostly a Burning Man, techie set, there are also a fair
number of qualified mental health professionals.

Honestly, I don't think a book on white-collar drug use is a good idea - it's
too broad a topic.

I would either focus it on unproblematic (and possibly beneficial) drug use or
drug abuse - those are too radically different phenomenon, to conflate the two
will definitely undermine your credibility.

Based on your past work it looks like you're targeting drug abuse, so I would
just stay focused on that, especially what factors differentiate it from
general drug use by responsible, informed people.

~~~
Eilene
It started out as a focus on drug abuse, but more than abuse or use, I'm
trying to answer a question of why? If, for example, you don't abuse but just
use psychoactive drugs in some way, regularly, why? Especially if you like
your job or things seem pretty good in your life. I am not judging and don't
know the answer. Maybe the query is too broad though, I guess I'm going into
this open eyed and open minded and I'll see what patterns emerge.

~~~
opportune
One thing I don't like is that you seem to repeatedly be asking if people felt
"pressured" to take drugs to catch up with their colleagues or what their
"fear" is. If you want to know why, you should ask "why", and not push your
own narrative with leading questions. I think a lot of people, including
myself, would actually tell you that they take performance enhancing drugs
simply to make themselves the best version of themselves, not to compete with
others. The fact that these people are highly competitive is simply because
they are over-achievers.

~~~
Eilene
Thanks for clarifying. I don't have conclusions yet, but I do have ideas and
didn't think my questions were leading. So apologize if they seem so. If you
don't feel "pressured"\--overtly or subvertly--to take a substance but just do
it because you think it would be fun, then that's the answer, right? And I'll
learn from that.

------
throwitaway42
From the Midwest originally. I moved to the Bay Area in the mid-2000s for work
right out of college. As a young teen, I had gotten most drug use and
experimentation out of my system. Marijuana and LSD were my mainstays then. In
my later teens called it quits when I realized grades matter.

Fast-forward to moving to Bay Area, I was astounded by the level of cavalier
toking up, dosing, or snorting that folks my age and well into their 40s were
doing. None of this was typical at the office, but afterwards yes. Never
condoned by the Big Company. The folks who did it in the office were known,
but they were never fired or pushed out — even though the 2007 financial
crisis was underway and everyone was tightening belts. The worst I saw in the
office was a poor guy who had a vat of raw powdered caffeine that he
continually ingested due to his sleep apnea.

Outside the office, damn, was there plenty of abuse within the Burning Man and
Oakland scenes. Many were professionals, but they were wrecks. All said they
were fine, but you could see that a manager East of the Bay Area would have
fried their sorry asses in a heartbeat. To this date, two have died from drug
related complications and three have wasted their bodies on MDMA, Speed, and
other cosmetic drugs. Shocking to see someone earning North of 250k/year
snorting MDA with a rusty razor blade.

I moved to Berlin in the intervening years. Everything was tame there in
comparison. Just a bunch of low-grade speed masquerading as something better.
The folks there who do this match what you would expect: poor mental acumen
and lack of patience in the office, and they were everywhere. Alcoholism was
especially rampant: I think the dark depressing den of winter there drives
folks to it.

Since going back to the Bay Area, most of the folks have slowed down or moved
away. So many broken marriages, careers, and bodies. Reminds me of the
epilogue scene of A Scanner Darkly.

~~~
tomc1985
Trust me there is much more drug use in Berlin than you saw. The dance music
underground there is just as drug-addled as the burner scene here, maybe just
not as inundated with tech workers

~~~
throwitaway42
Yeah, I saw all of that. Oakland’s drug use makes Berlin looks quaint.

------
lordnacho
Through a decade and a half in finance, I never came across someone who was
using drugs. I always found this odd considering the reputation of the
industry. I was working at hedge funds that were the prime clients of certain
brokers, and I could go eat out on their account pretty much any night of the
week. Perhaps they sensed I was not the type for drugs and hookers, so I was
only offered these kinds of things once.

Plenty of rumours though, and they make sense. Some of the brokers need to be
taking clients out every night and then somehow show up on the desk at 7am.
But I know plenty of people in the business and nobody a confirmed user.

------
mabbo
I work in a major software corporation and have literally never seen or heard
of drug use at the company, outside of non-work-related recreational drug use
(and even that never ventured very far). Perhaps it's the stability of being
at a fortune 100 company.

Those who work here went through a pretty intense interview process. They're
pretty good developers, which means if they were fired it wouldn't take them
long to find a job. So why bother taking performance enhancing drugs?

Of course, the coffee and sugar is readily available and free.

------
kcorbitt
I worked at Google for a year, and am currently at a much smaller company in
San Francisco. There's plenty of alcohol consumption at semi-official work
social events, and I've seen some recreational marijuana use as well and
nobody bats an eye. But I've never heard of developers using drugs for
performance enhancement. It may happen, but it's certainly not part of the
general culture, and I've never felt any pressure to use stimulants to keep
up. I consider myself to be a high performer.

------
bitL
I personally haven't used any drugs (and started drinking socially only in the
past 3 years), but I know some founders (CxO) level using amphetamines almost
daily (Adderall from kids' prescriptions or faked shipments from India/Russia)
to keep them high performing and focused (US). It also made them more robotic
and less compassionate. I haven't seen anyone taking other types of drugs
regularly; some smoke cigarettes or weed, but that is becoming acceptable in
Europe recently.

------
drugsguy
Modafinil is surprisingly popular in the nootropics communities. Most people I
know have tried piracetam (and other *racetams). I think everyone in tech
settles on supplements eventually -- choline, tyrosine, and 5htp. I've had a
surprising number of people recommend L-Theanine to me to "take the edge off"
stimulants.

If someone is willing to take drugs in the tech sector, they tend to be
experimental about it, slowly incrementing their doses and trying research
chemicals. Most people come to the conclusion that drugs are too unreliable to
use frequently for improving performance and use them as occasional bumps.

People who try cocaine during their professional careers tend to consider it
unreliable and dont use it, but those who tried it before their career may
continue using it.

Caffeine abuse is pretty common, but rarely makes people more productive, so
you see that for about 1-2 years until they realize it's not helping.

Alcohol abuse is really common in high-stress jobs like operations,
disenfranchised developers also drink. I don't see many engineers using
alcohol as a "social lubricant".

Entheogens (mdma, lsd, 2ci/b, doc/doi, etc) are popular as a party-drug and
"social lubricant".

Opioids are under-represented in my experience, probably because their affects
dont lead to productivity in tech.

~~~
opportune
I take choline (lecithin) and l-tyrosine too (not 5htp because it makes me
incredibly nauseous) and you're the only other tech worker I've encountered
that even knew about them.

------
throwaway23221
I've took everything under the sun... Now I don't touch anything but cannabis
due to experiencing mental health issues myself and seeing a lot of my peers,
who also took drugs, have similar issues. I've had more than a few peers who
were upstanding, intelligent and well presented members of society, end up in
a mental hospital for the rest of their lives or in a grave.

You can't place every drug in the same category, no, but excessive use of
anything leads to negative consequences, especially for males under 25 who
haven't fully matured.

I'd say in the UK, in those professions, most people are middle class and have
not seen the damage that various drugs and alcohol can do. Most people in
these professions can afford the habit and it does not affect their lives.

From growing up in a poor area I have seen the damage that drugs can do, but
even then it was never something that never really entered my mind when
deciding what drugs to take or how excessively I was going to take them until
I had a scare myself and lost close friends.

I still have a weed habit though, consumption has increased along with my
wage, but I haven't touched anything else for years and have no intention of
doing so. Before I used to really want to take hard drugs, now I really don't.

------
allochthon
Good luck with your book.

I worked as a software developer for 6-7 years in San Francisco and
Emeryville, CA, and never became aware of or suspected widespread
drug/stimulant use apart from coffee (a beloved thing in my view). Alcohol was
definitely something one saw consumed at startups.

At the present time (now in Colorado, working with a remote team), a colleague
of mine uses prescription medication to deal with ADD. Another is into the
psychedelic drug scene and micro-doses LSD.

------
Lazare
I think it's interesting how some drugs (including very dangerous drugs) are
normalised. Alcohol, caffeine, and (with a prescription, and in some cultures,
even without) amphetamines[1] are just seen as "fine". People use them
dangerously, openly talk about using them, joke about using them, participate
and encourage a culture of abusing them, and nobody blinks. An acquaintance of
mine ended up in the hospital after abusing caffeine to try and hit a project
deadline, yet how many caffeine/coffee jokes have you heard? It's a dangerous,
addictive, abusable substance. Hell, I'm writing this while drinking a
caffeinated beverage. It's nuts.

Conversely, research seems to suggest that modafinil is vastly safer than
caffeine, non-addictive, not habit forming, doesn't build tolerances,
essentially impossible to overdose from. The fact there's a coffee machine in
my offices breakroom and free beer on Friday's, but not a basket of modafinil
tabs[2], is one of life's mysteries. People die from alcohol (especially),
amphetamines, and (to a much lesser extent) caffeine all the damn time. There
are no recorded deaths due to modafinil.

[1]: By which I mean Adderall, of course. But it's still speed, with all the
danger that implies. Adderall is habit forming, tolerance building, and can
and has killed people.

[2]: Not suggesting that would actually be a good idea (although...), just
that if we live in a world tolerant enough of dangerous drugs that we
encourage the use of caffeine and alcohol, then why don't we tolerate drugs
which are, at a minimum, an order of magnitude safer? (And probably more like
several orders of magnitude.)

~~~
programmarchy
It's not mysterious. Coffee has been around over 500 years, and modafinil was
discovered less than 50 years ago. Most people haven't even heard of
modafinil. Plus, coffee tastes good.

~~~
Lazare
Well...

1) We've banned a lot of dangerous drugs that have been around for centuries.
Opium has been used since at least 1500 BCE, so over three THOUSAND years.

2) I think coffee tastes awful and can't even stand the smell. So maybe I'm
biased. :)

------
trenhard
I've a got a bit of a different use case than seen in here.

I'm not sure I would go as far as calling it an addiction but it's probably
pretty close.

I've been BnC (blast and cruise) steroids for the last few years. This means
that I never completely come off so my body hasn't had to produce test
naturally since I started which may mean it might not ever work again if I do
come off steroids.

Currently on a blast of testosterone enthanate and trenbolone acetate. Going
to add in an oral soon as well.

As far as getting an edge in work I don't know if theres anything there but I
have had people comment on how I just never get tired. I also never get
depressed since I started using high doses of test. Of course I'm also working
out a lot and it changes the dynamic of social encounters with people when
you're all jacked. Some times it's good and some times it's bad.

Now by bodybuilding standards it's still very mild doses and I have not yet
gotten into insulin and hgh yet but because of my salary I've been
contemplating going on hgh Because of all the benefits of it. (HGH even the
under ground and Chinese stuff is very expensive but has great benefits to
regular people, see Elon Musk as an example of an obvious user)

------
neverminder
The way I see it there's mainly 2 types of drugs in this case: recreational
and performance enhancing. For instance both cocaine and modafinil are drugs,
but vastly different in terms of safety, addiction and last but not least -
social stigma. If you want more information regarding performance enhancing
substances, more specifically mind performance (very relevant in tech sector),
I suggest you visit /r/nootropics.

~~~
Eilene
Yes, realized that in the last 20 minutes, when I went to look up modafinil.
Do you think that the use of performance related drugs and stimulants are far
more prevalent in the under 40 set? Or under 30? than among those working in
tech that are over 4o or 50?

~~~
muzani
I've picked up nootropics at 30, mostly trying to catch up with younger, more
energetic developers. Part of it was also because these resources weren't
around when I was in college. Part of it is because those of us who have been
working several years in a soul draining job often look for other ways to
enjoy life and take some risk.

------
agoodthrowaway
Haven't done anything myself other than smoke weed in the evenings. However at
times I've wanted to give Adderal a try to get me through challenging times.
When I was in college I used relatively high doses of pseudophedrine during
exam times and found it helped me focus. I used it once during finals to stay
up for 3 days. I aced those exams.

Currently I am a high level IC at a major web company. The pressure and
competition at this level is incredible. I only do this job and put up with
the pressure because I need the money (long story) and am trying to put my
family ahead. I do like what I do though but would scale myself back if I
didn't need the money.

When I get stretched too thin, I have trouble focusing. Adderal would be a way
for me to focus when I'm running on fumes. It's not something I'd use daily
but something during crunch times for sure. I've not done it because I haven't
found a non-risky way to get it. I won't buy this kind of thing on the black
market because I don't trust the product or the people. I'm not going to ask
my doctor for it. But if I had a reliable way to get it, I'd have it.

~~~
Jefro118
Not necessarily endorsing stimulants but here is a good analysis of Modafinil
suppliers: [http://www.gwern.net/Modafinil#suppliers-
prices](http://www.gwern.net/Modafinil#suppliers-prices). It's worth reading
the whole page from the start though if you're interested. Includes some
comparison with Adderall too.

~~~
cweagans
Also consider Adrafinil. It metabolizes into Modafinil, but Adrafinil can be
purchased legally from just about anywhere (Amazon has a few listings).

~~~
aspett
Adrafinil has side effects on one's liver. It would be wise to do at least
some cursory reading on it before taking this advice.

------
bad_dev
I'm a software developer. I've taken adderall for the last 15 years. I have
ADHD. Adderall changed my life for the better. I thought ADHD was bullshit
until I saw the difference adderall made in my life. I don't function without
it. I don't see it as a performance booster or a productivity aid. For me it's
a necessity. It's the difference between remembering to pay my bills and
having my car repossessed even though I had the money (true story). Negative
side effects... I have an essential tremor. The adderall makes it worse.
Eating peas is a frustrating experience. Beyond that, nothing. I wish it
curbed my appetite, but it doesn't. I wish it gave me superhuman coding
skills, but it doesn't. For me it enables me to hold a job. I understand that
it's a different experience if you don't have ADHD. Friends tell me that they
buzz. Their heart pounds. It's speed. None of that is true for me. I take 60mg
XR daily. At this level I'm a functioning member of society. Nothing more.

------
logfromblammo
The only drugs I have observed personally are caffeine, nicotine, refined
sugar, and ethanol. The only other drugs I have heard about or suspected are
prescription drugs for diagnosed medical conditions, such as hypertension,
pre-diabetes, and high cholesterol.

But people around here would tend to keep even the legal drugs out of public
knowledge, as that sort of thing may affect background checks and security
clearances. Everyone in my workplace is _very_ square. My office-neighbor uses
a nicotine vape and prescription mood-stabilizing drugs, and doesn't have a
clearance explicitly because of the latter.

It would be nice to be able to get drunk or high a few times a year, but the
career risk isn't worth it. I have worked exclusively in the Midwest and
South. In general, people of those regions collectively have a rather low
opinion of people who use drugs of any kind, legal or illegal, although the
Southerners are a bit more hypocritical about it.

~~~
Eilene
Does anyone else want to weigh in about geographical differences in the use of
drugs or the perception of those who do? It's very interesting to me how
different your experience is from those, say, in the Bay Area or in big
coastal cities.

~~~
deadmetheny
As a Midwesterner, I can echo the sentiment that those who use illegal drugs
are generally considered to be lowlifes or otherwise looked down upon by older
folks, and some younger ones. Cannabis use is something of an exception - it's
seen as acceptable by most of the younger crowd and more of the older folks
are being convinced it's not dangerous as well. Legal drugs are a-ok.

For tech specifically, in my experience there seems to be a higher-than-
average number of smokers. Coffee and soda are drank as if they were water.
That's about it.

~~~
logfromblammo
Soda? You must be from St. Louis.

------
hx2a
In the finance industry Adderall is very popular. I know someone who works as
an in-house psychiatrist at a top-tier investment bank. Most of the employees
that go to see her are looking for an Adderall prescription.

I've known a few people who use cocaine. It is useful for the people who want
to stay up late at the clubs and be able to work the next day.

~~~
nradov
Wow the notion of having your own private Dr. Feelgood on staff just seems
bizarre. It's a whole different world I guess.

~~~
hx2a
No, she doesn't. Happily her job is structured in such a way that she has full
control over her job and decisions. The employees can get her fired for not
giving them what they want.

------
petercooper
Only mentioning this because no-one else has, but.. beta blockers (e.g.
propranolol).

Even at a very low dose, these have been a game changer for me when dealing
with being on stage or heavily social situations where I might ordinarily fall
into fight-or-flight.

This is all legal and apparently quite common though, so not the "sexiest"
story for sure.

------
joesnuffy
I've been taking Adderall just about daily for 12 years. 15yrs old to 27yrs
old. I've been looking for a way to contribute to a study, specifically on the
productivity. My theory is that overall a life on amphetamines does result in
increased productivity in your target areas and the downside is a serious
dopamine problem in areas that people don't typically have problems with. I've
quit cold turkey for periods of up to 3 months 5 times in the last 7 years. I
NEEDed 3 days to sleep hard each time and then there were no noticeable side
effects other than borderline zero productivity in the areas I used
amphetamines to increase productivity the most. Amphetamines give me the
ability to change my interests completely and when I get off of them my brain
seems to reject what it was forced to care about while stimulated.

------
samirm
Hi Eilene, interesting questions, but I don't have anything to share except
for a few questions of my own.

Have you done any of these drugs listed in the responses?

Would you ever try any of them and why/ not?

What is your understanding and general ideas on things like addiction, the war
on drugs and the typical taboo impression of these substances and culture?

Thanks.

------
samplesizeone
Let me clue you in on something: Your bias is showing, and while I'm sure it
comes from a serious place of care, concern, and pain, it's offensively
reductive.

As in I already hate your book for supposing substances used or abused is a
problem. Life is a monumental series of problems and our species has adapted
for thousands of years. Unless your book is 90% about alcohol then it's
starting from a premise of Puritanism that will not sit well with probably a
large swath of your intended audience. They will - and research will - shred
it without mercy, and rightfully so.

How we treat our bodies and lives as individuals is incredibly diverse. I
would submit switching out "drugs" with "Religion of Choice" and see how
interested people are in joining your perspective.

I've been medicated by necessity for my entire life and not by my choice. I
choose to identify any and all substances I take as medication now, and I will
admit that I'd call my lifestyle inherently addicted to modern medicine. I
would not be here without a wide swath of legal and stigmatized substances,
from basic stuff like tobacco over the years, to more exotic compounds like
designer steroids or other mind-bending, reality questioning opportunities
throughout the years.

I guess what it really boils down to, in my case and - I don't want to infer
here, but it's hard not to with my 20 plus years of adulthood - is that it's
none of your business what I put into my body whether it's between me and a
dealer or doctor, and I have a gut feeling Peter maybe felt a similar sense of
privacy and shame.

You know, because people like to publicly shame drug addicts and throw them in
jail in the US on the regular, and unless your book has a roadmap to fix this
terrible misunderstanding of human nature and lack of compassion, well, it's
part of the problem a lot of society refuses to recognize, accommodate, and
adapt our lifestyles to understand and address. I think Ozzy Osbourne said it
best: "Sobriety sucks"

~~~
programmarchy
You may have legitimate medical conditions that require treatment with drugs,
but that is no reason to minimize the problems of drug addiction. It's a
plague on society, and causes massive amounts of damage to not only the
addicts themselves, but also their friends and families.

Sobriety sucked for Ozzy because he had heroin withdrawals. He was obviously
not endorsing drug abuse, but empathizing with the struggle of overcoming
addiction. Unhealthy people may say working out sucks, too, because it's hard.
But in the long run it's rewarding. Sobriety should be celebrated.

------
kretash
Reading the comments I feel like there are 2 polarized sides that state that
everyone they work with uses some sort of stimulant or that they have never
encountered it during their career.

It's hard to get a sense of how common it is to encounter stimulants in the
tech sector from reading this thread.

~~~
DanBC
Water testing is now so good you could just gather samples from the sewage
line of various companies to do some testing.

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2516581/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2516581/)

[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4746787.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4746787.stm)

[https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/z43kk9/the-
plan-t...](https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/z43kk9/the-plan-to-test-
cities-sewage-for-drugs-is-a-new-form-of-mass-
surveillance-5886b75df1bddf454bd80da8)

------
sudosteph
Seattle based techies I know definitely seem to enjoy weed. With legalization
and advances in weed tech (e-nails), dabbing concentrates or vape pens are the
typical mode of usage. It's a daily thing for most of the ones I know.

I do see some stimulant usage (adderall, modafinil, caffeine, 5 hour energy),
but it's usually in people with ADHD who are taking prescribed medication.
Sometimes others will take it too, though I suspect some of those are are
people who probably have ADHD and aren't getting treatment. Hyperfocus and
love of novelty make tech an appealing field for ADHDers and those with ADHD
tendencies.

I've only known one techie to use coke, and thought he was crazy and way out
of the norm for my group.

------
wintercharm
Medical student here.

Used to drink tons of coffee. Sleep 4 hours a night, and micronap. Eventually
realized that this was hurtin me long term when I found my memory becoming
impaired. This only happened when I was in really intense study, so I feel
like this thing won’t show for most people.

But I eventually changed my ways, stepped down from 4-6 cups a day to 1 cup in
the morning, and I get 9.5 hours of sleep every night now.

I’m _more_ productive, and healthier, and I know I can SUSTAIN this
productivity. Sure, some of my classmates use adderall, others use cocaine...
but I know that I’ll have better long term productivity and outlook than those
people.

------
anonyx69
Modafinil is a hot topic these days

~~~
TheAdamAndChe
Yup. I used adrafinil(prodrug of modafinil) regularly during university and
found it particularly useful in my programming classes. It helped me get "in
the zone" while avoiding the euphoria, BP issues, and recovery
periods/withdrawals that stronger stuff does. Plus it doesn't show up in most
drug tests.

~~~
Eilene
Do you still use that now? or other stimulants? Or did you find you didn't
need it after college?

~~~
TheAdamAndChe
I don't currently use it or other stimulants because I'm recently graduated,
currently unemployed, and looking for work. Well I suppose I take caffeine,
but I've mostly cycled off that too, and only take a single 200mg pill per
day. If I get a job that requires a steady flow state or a high amount of
productivity, I very likely will begin using it again.

I use it because I am not naturally suited for the work. I have a genetic
variation(gs224) that makes me tired all of the time and stimulation-deprived.
However in our current economy, it seems like the only career path I can take
that will work with my abrasive, likely autistic personality while still
providing long-term career growth opportunities.

~~~
Eilene
It sounds like you would need a stimulant of some sort, just to counter the
genetic issue. Thanks for your candor.

------
lpa22
I started a large latte habit (which sounds silly) a couple months ago at my
new startup job, but I've been working in tech for 3.5 years now. My tolerance
is low so thats all I need to get kickstarted... but now I'm pretty dependent
on it and can't get nearly as much done without it. At my last job, some SEs
would have 5+ cans of coke a day. I think it was an overdose of
caffeine/sugar.... which actually might be more unhealthy than Adderall. I'd
be curious to see what people think of that.

------
econner
You should look at Gwern's research on the topic:
[https://www.gwern.net/Nootropics](https://www.gwern.net/Nootropics)

~~~
Eilene
will do.

------
pandaZz
I am working in tech sector as a software developer and also do a little
marketing/consulting. I use cannabis to boost my creativity and it also helps
me calming down after hard days of work. Of course I drink coffee in the
morning and until afternoon, don't know many people who don't do at my work. I
smoke (e-cigarette) and many colleagues do, too.

When partying I like to drink (beer, wine, cocktails). So pretty normal in my
opinion and nothing to hide for in 21st century.

------
jdlyga
Programmer in NYC working at various companies for almost 10 years. Never seen
any drug use, or even heard of any. People drink a lot of coffee and tea, but
that's it.

------
d--b
Developer in finance here.

Honestly I've seen zero drug use in the engineering world. Work hours aren't
crazy (the max I did was 13hr/day - usual is 9/10), so you don't really need
the stimulants like cocaine.

Social alcoolism is common, so is recreational marijuana, but it doesn't seem
related to work.

Finance-wise, I think things are a lot less 'sex and drugs and rock n roll'
than people believe. The finance guys are more like what you see in The Big
Short: serious geeks.

------
sulam
In the 90's startup environment I knew a surprising number of engineers who
regularly took meth and/or cocaine (and probably other uppers -- they were
after productivity boosts). It tended to travel in packs -- particular
companies had a decent percentage doing it, while others had zero (as far as I
knew).

These days I hear more about the "focus" drugs -- which seem like
pharmaceutical versions of the same stuff, with reduced dosage.

------
formerpothead
An important and interesting topic that could definitely use solid
(professional) journalistic treatment.

Some suggestions, in that vein:

(1) The tech sector is quite different from other white collar sectors -- and
I gather you'll find their usage profiles to be quite different, also. So
really, drug use in the tech sector deserves to be a story (or a series) all
its own.

(2) Within tech, there's always been a huge divide between the engineering and
business sides (they're almost from different planets, in some respects). So
basically we're talking about completely separate analyses for these groups.

(3) You may want to completely exclude the Wall Street crowd from your surveys
as well -- or at least be careful to note it as a distinct subclass. They're
also something of a culture apart from the rest of tech, so if you put to much
focus on them, your research will definitely be skewed.

(4) My own observation from the engineering crowd (over many years and having
lived in various geographic areas) suggests that the use of normalized (or
"mostly normalized") substances (alcohol, marijuana, caffeine, "smart drinks"
/ herbal stimulants, psychedelics (and ecstasy) and very rarely, low-grade
amphetamines) is probably about what you'll find in any high-skill, sometimes
stressful line of work. Perhaps alcohol and caffeine are used a bit more, and
marijuana a bit less (except in places where it's been legalized or
effectively legalized).

(4b) Added qualification that psychedelic use seems quite rare outside the Bay
Area, but I could be wrong.

(5) Use of harder substances (cocaine, methamphetamine, heroin) on the other
hand appears to be exceedingly rare among engineering types -- for the simple
reason that they're effects are fundamentally incompatible with the "head
space" geeks need to be in 24x7 to be even remotely capable of doing the work
they do. I'm not saying there are no heavy users or tales of abuse among
engineers - of course they are. But if anything the general rate of incidence
is probably distinctly _less_ than that of other white-collar professions.

(6) Finally, by far the most serious substance problem in the industry is
alcohol. This has definitely changed over the years, and a serious examination
of the reasons behind this shift would also be quite welcome.

------
jernfrost
Where I work it doesn't seem to be much, but there are certainly people who
have tried weed. Some have done cocaine I know. I colleague of mine many years
ago started doing cocaine at around 25 and he got into a lot of problems. I
remember him talking about how drugs were much easier to handle when you start
late and is much more mature. Turned out he was wrong and couldn't control it.

But I live in Norway, where I think drug usage is somewhat lower than in the
US, at least for weed. I hear much more crazy stories about drug abuse from my
blue collar friends from my old industrial home town.

Personally I don't even drink coffee. Occasionally I drink red bull to stay
awake. I've tried soft drugs in the past many years ago but that had nothing
to do with the industry, workload or anything like that.

However I do suffer a kind of burnout/mild depression and often think I would
have loved to do drugs just to get through the days. But I know that is a
horrible idea so I have no plans on acting on it. People never seem able to
control their drug usage, no matter how certain they are before they start.

~~~
aaron_m04
> I remember him talking about how drugs were much easier to handle when you
> start late and is much more mature. Turned out he was wrong and couldn't
> control it.

No, he was right. It's just that this drug still wasn't easy enough.

------
icco
I've known a few friends in SF with meth addiction. Vice and Buzzfeed have
talked about Meth in the SF gay community, but
[https://thump.vice.com/en_us/article/zmvej4/meth-ghb-
epidemi...](https://thump.vice.com/en_us/article/zmvej4/meth-ghb-epidemic-gay-
queer-men-grindr) is a first hand account.

~~~
Eilene
thanks for the link. And I have found meth is alot more common, it seems, in
the gay community.

------
sometimelydat
While working at a local Datacenter in Austin Texas(2016), I was introduced to
and regularly used these performance enhancing drugs:

\------------ _Armodafinil_ _Adderall_ _4-ACO-DMT_ \------------

Sleep is the foe that austinites try to vanquish; psychedelic
interconnectivity its modus operandi. Community building is the endeavor of
this weird little city of Austin, the future its dream.

~~~
Eilene
Are you still working in the industry in Austin and do you still use this?

~~~
sometimelydat
I moved to Oahu Hawaii, I am no longer using. I decided to slow down and start
relying on sleep.

My extra ability became more of a problem for me in the work place than a
blessing. The harder you work, the more that will be expected of you.

It was a fun experiment though; sleeping for 3 hours a night for a month and a
half straight at one point. Forget about what 4-ACO-DMT did to me.

Sleep is good, balance is good.

------
rdl
I had a bunch of bay area tech friends all become meth addicts while I was out
of the country (2001-2008?). It was self-reinforcing. I think a few people on
the periphery died, and then eventually it stopped, although I'd drifted away
by then. It was just weird seeing people who had used lots of other drugs
without becoming addicts become addicts en-masse.

------
jpzisme
I have a daily shot of espresso at the office at 8am. It tastes good and helps
me focus. Sometimes there's a happy hour on Friday. I don't drink, but some of
my coworkers do in moderation.

I'm sure there is a drug/party/binge drinking culture in some companies in the
Bay, but it's the mildest I've seen in any industry/geography so far.

~~~
Eilene
In your professional career, have you been in other industries and regions
where it was far more prevalent?

~~~
jpzisme
I used to work in finance as a banker. It was more prevalent there. I'd say
more so with those who were based out of NYC.

------
exelius
Depends what you define as drug use; but yes.

I’m on the consulting side, and I personally take stimulants for ADHD, but I
don’t abuse them. Stimulant abuse is pretty obvious on the job, be it coffee
or meth, so it’s best to avoid them if you can get by without them.

I don’t drink or abuse illegal drugs; but I have known plenty of functional
alcoholics and more than one literal code junkie. The culture honestly enables
the alcoholics, and there’s nothing worse than being on a project with an
alcoholic partner because they’ll make you go with them to the bar every
night. Ugh.

Marijuana (normally hash oil in the form of vape pens) is a whole other thing.
It’s nearly universal among consultants given our mobility and the high level
of stress — nearly everyone has a friend on a project in a recreational state
who brings back vape cartridges for their pals. Depends widely on the location
and how illegal it is in various places of course.

Everyone has done it on the DL for years, but we’re just now starting to talk
about it.

------
grubmatt
This is tangentially related but I attend a leading CS university which sends
a lot of students into highly sought after tech, consulting, and investment
banking jobs. Students here do every drug under the rainbow and they do them a
lot. When I talk to students at other schools the problem doesn't seem to be
anywhere near as widespread.

~~~
Eilene
Does that make you think it's a problem in computer software more than other
professions?

~~~
kazen44
I think (not OP btw) that it is more a problem of being in a highly
competitive enviroment? These people are all trying to one up each other,
which will eventually leads to finding substances to getting an edge over
others? (otherwise they wouldn't be there in the first place?)

------
forapurpose
A tangential question for the journalist @Eilene:

> I'd like to use some of your comments in the book and will not know or need
> to know your name

How do you verify the stories? I'm sure you don't just trust random postings
to Internet forums and print them as truth (I hope?).

Personally, I've been in SV for 20 years, founded several successful startups,
sleep 4 hours a night on average, and eat only nuts and berries. Or I live in
my parents' basement amid a haze of pot smoke, and spend my days trolling the
Internet. Or I'm a 16 year old provocateur writing this when I should be
paying attention in trigonometry class, but I'm not out of spite for the ADD
meds my parents make me take. Or I work down the hall from you and I've really
wanted to ask you this question in person, but I only have the courage when I
drink. Or maybe I'm someone else today ... let me think ...

------
HappyThrowaway
I have been suffering from depression for a long time... decades. I have tried
many antidepressants; none of them help, and/or the side effects are worse
than the depression itself.

Until I took oxycodone one day. I don't remember the reason... perhaps a
toothache... but my wife had them at the time (for pain) and I took half a
pill. (Not sure about the dosage.) Suddenly, euphoria! That was a really
strange sensation, considering I had not been feeling good in... years,
probably, except for the (very) rare mood swing that went "up" instead of
"down".

Of course, the next time you take it, it doesn't work as well, so you take a
little more. The usual addiction cycle. Except that didn't happen in my case;
a higher dose (say, a whole pill) would not make me feel good; it would just
make me feel weird and nauseous and dizzy. So I would wait a day or two, then
take the half pill again. This went on for a little while without any bad side
effects (that I am aware of).

(At some point my wife stopped taking it, and so I had to do the same. I don't
think there was much of a withdrawal, probably because of the low dose.)

I think oxycodone might actually be helpful for me, as an antidepressant.
Feeling better every three or four days is not a cure, but it sure beats
feeling miserable _all_ the time. There is even some evidence that for some
people with non-addictive personalities, it might be beneficial. [1] But,
needless to say, I am very reluctant to bring this up to doctors or
counselors, and even if I did, they probably could not, or would not,
prescribe it anyway.

It's frustrating though, to know that there is a medicine out there that at
least does _something_ against my depression, yet I am unable to get it.

[1]
[https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/ajp.156.12...](https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/ajp.156.12.2017?code=ajp-
site)

------
medmj
I work with information security. I have depression and anxiety (I know lots
in infosec and software engineering who also has - maybe it's a mix of
loneliness, impostor syndrome and the feeling of underachievement?) and I use
marijuana (a blunt per night) to help me treat it. It doesn't affect on my
daily work in any bad way. Besides that, on the past I've used a lot of
alcohol and occasionaly MDMA to party on weekends, which didn't lead me to
heavier drugs and/or more frequent uses and it also didn't affect my job.

As a side note, I'm not sure about the relationship between this industry
(infosec) and mental health issues, but, from what I know/have seen, the
numbers are very high compared to other industries. And mental health is sure
worth a look to find more about drug (ab)use in a particular industry.

~~~
chatmasta
The infosec mindset is really mentally unhealthy. Your literal job is to be
unreasonably paranoid and distrusting of everybody. I can definitely see how
this could take its toll on mental health if you’re not balancing your work
with the rest of your lifestyle.

------
TomMarius
A lot of people experiment with various psychedelic drugs for the psychedelic
purposes. Marijuana is pretty much normal. LSD is sometimes used in the form
of microdosing that produces no psychedelic effects and should improve focus
and creative thinking. And of course coffee and alcohol are abused hugely.

~~~
monocasa
And MDMA.

I've heard a fellow engineer say, "it lets _me_ enjoy being an extrovert."

~~~
Eilene
Can you work better on ecstasy though? Isn't that more a recreational thing
than a productivity related thing?

~~~
ozzmotik
i find psychedelic experiences to be very beneficial to productive states if
you wield them properly, and stimulants often do help with focus and
efficiency when it comes to working, so, i could certainly see MDMA having
some very beneficial neurological effects during the course of the experience.

~~~
vimcat
I’m perfectly agree with “Neurological” effects on MDMA.

------
Myrmornis
SF Bay Area: Are you worried that it’s a bit tone deaf to be writing a book on
drug use among well-paid programmers and other tech sector workers when they
are living among a sea of homeless people living in squalor under bridges with
high levels of heroin and alcohol abuse and mental illness?

~~~
burner890
Much like what we have seen with the opioid epidemic I suspect that people
will pay more attention to stories about well-educated, affluent (read white)
members of the upper middle class suffering from drug abuse. If the end result
is more humane drug policy and enforcement then maybe it's a good thing?

------
propman
Did you take a look at that google executive Forrest Hayes who died from
heroin OD injected by a sugar baby from seeking arrangement? I think that's a
huge story in itself. The Bay Area has created a lot of wealth, a substantial
amount given to individuals who display characteristics of introverted,
libertarian, extreme individuality, which along with high drug use has
resulted in a burgeoning sex for money trade. In my extremely limited and
potentially erroneous pov, this has indirectly further increased drug usage
for both the women and men. There are a lot of negative externalities from
Silicon Valley and multiple threads to pull on but the extremes of everything
from politics to high costs of home ownership has resulted in some quite
depressing realities.

------
michaelt
Scott Alexander has written, in the past [1], about acting as a gatekeeper for
people who want Adderall. Could be worth interviewing him?

Gwern Branwen is also quite open to talking publicly [2] about his experiences
ordering things like modafinil without a prescription.

[1] [http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/12/28/adderall-risks-much-
mor...](http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/12/28/adderall-risks-much-more-than-
you-wanted-to-know/) discussed
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16033574](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16033574)

[2] [https://www.gwern.net/Modafinil](https://www.gwern.net/Modafinil)

~~~
Eilene
appreciate this, thanks.

------
typetehcodez
I drink coffee. Up to three cups a day when working over 12 hours. Beyond
that? No. I have an occasional glass of red wine at night, but have little
desire to ever try any other drug. I am curious about the effects of micro-
dosing LSD for creative productivity, but would only ever consider that in a
medical research setting - I am more curious about the results of such a
study. I don't know anyone who used/uses illegal drugs in my profession, and I
am in my 4th job as a developer. Be careful about the comments here; not
everyone uses drugs and you have no idea about sample size and representation
in these comments. I am sorry about your loss, and wish you the best in your
research and hope it can help others in the future.

------
balls187
Do you have contact info you can share for those of us who wish to not
publicly disclose information.

~~~
tmp-20150107
+1

------
halfnibble
I have found that the high tolerance for recreational activities throughout
the workday has made software development easy to cope with. Stuck on
algorithm? Go play some ping pong. Stressing about a bug? Pick up Dr. Mario or
maybe some Ms. PacMan. However, since my brain is expected to be on full speed
all the time, I do find myself drinking a lot of espresso. Around 8 shots per
day. In this profession, we work weeks and often weekends to meet deadlines. I
cannot imagine that software developers who abuse drugs could live through a
typical software project. And I can't recall any professional developers who
use drugs. Although I did know a graphic designer who I'm pretty sure did
crack. Not 100% sure though.

------
tekromancr
Of the developers/tech folks I know it's mostly a weed/booze crowd. A few
people that do party drugs. And a few people who occasionally do psychedelics.
No one I know seems to have any outwardly visible issues with it. I do know
one person who I am sure has problem with painkillers, but it's that scary
blurry ground between "addict" and "chronic pain sufferer". I don't think it
effects her work, but I wonder about their personal life.

Also stimulants. I almost forgot to mention them because they are basically
water in this industry. Almost everyone who isn't on some sort of health kick
is using some combo of caffeine/amphetamine derivatives/coke/modalert/etc.

~~~
Eilene
do you just steer clear of those using stimulants of some sort (when you say
those you know are mostly the booze/weed crowd). Is the reason it's 'basically
water' in the tech industry only because of the hours needed? What's the fear
--if you don't keep up, do you lose your job? Does your career flounder?

------
mannanj
I'd love for to investigate caffeine. At least in American society, coffee is
the most utilized in office jobs and also seen as the most accepted.

Does this lead to a lack of scientific and corporate interest on the long term
affects? What are the adverse affects on various job performance factors:
quality of sleep, memory and attention, actual productivity vs perceived
productivity?

Personally I'm an active drinker of caffeinated tea. And I feel less
productive drinking it than when purely sober after a month of fasting in
Ramadan. While this is a small sample size, and maybe not even correlated, I
feel like year after year after re-introducing caffeine I lose productivity
and eventually sleep.

------
hacknat
10 years in tech and I’ve never seen drugs in the workplace, other than
alcohol at the occasional mixer. I would say pot usage is pretty high, but I
don’t think I’ve ever seen someone come to work stoned (thought I had a
customer who was smoking on a call once).

Honestly, you have to operate at such a high mental capacity all day long in
this profession that I think consistent drug use (beyond weed and alcohol)
would be evident to your coworkers after a couple of weeks.

I’m sure drugs are done by lots of people in this industry, but I’ve never
even heard it referenced openly, let alone seen anything.

------
drugsthrowaway
I'm a dev at a startup. I was a regular cannabis user in my younger days,
mostly by smoking, but some edibles and quit years ago. In the past couple of
years I've started to start using cannabis again. I now vape because I don't
need all those combustion byproducts in my lungs, and it lasts much longer,
and you can reuse the already vaped material (ABV).

It helps me relax after work at night, and get to sleep some days. I prefer
indica rather than sativa for its relaxing and stoning effects. It helps me
deal with the stress and makes sure I sleep and eat.

~~~
Eilene
Have you always found you need some way to decompress from the stress? I'm
trying to learn how stressful your work as a developer is. Is it the work or
the work environment (a startup). Do most of your peers find some way to come
down at night, be it weed or drinking or something else?

~~~
drugsthrowaway
Here's the thing: when you're at a startup you and potentially your friends
have equity in, you have to be ON 80% of the time -nights, weekends, middle of
the night for a page, etc. You sit for hours at a time, you eat takeout a lot,
etc etc.

It's a blast from a technical innovation and engagement perspective, but it is
just really stressful to be in such a high octane high risk environment most
of your waking life. A couple to a few hours a few nights a week of just
forgetting it all, relaxing to a few puffs and a video game or movie or a few
episodes of TV or listening to a new album really helps. For me, it also helps
me weather the stress at work(i would never come to work stoned), as I'm less
liable to get worked up about shit that goes bad or deadlines etc. I just
execute instead of dwelling.

------
shiado
All the responses I have read here discuss illicit drugs but it would be worth
trying to gather some information on prescription psychiatric drugs like
SSRIs, SNRIs, and Benzos. I know a lot of people who take these drugs and they
are often not even talked about as being drugs. I believe the use of these
drugs isn't entirely about having a serious mental disorder and are often an
indicator of people being in toxic environments that breaks them down. Doctors
hand out prescriptions for these drugs like candy on Halloween.

------
ohmichel
I'm a professional developer. Some weekdays I use cannabis after work to
relax. In my experience using THC and trying to code doesn't work, I just
can't get focus as when sober.

------
sidcool
This is a great initiative. The hyper enthusiastic nature of our tech industry
hides many of the underlying problems. You can also mention about the tech
addiction that is ruining so many people. I am one of the victims and not a
recovering tech addict. But one particular friend of mine had it worse. He is
borderline ADHD, high sugar and fat due to sedentary lifestyle, anxiety
issues, eye problems, headaches, insomnia etc. I am not sure how many people
will have to suffer before this problem is addressed.

------
geff82
Ok, just my datapoints: mid-30, married, 2 children, never smoked a single
cigarette, never taken any other form of stuff that is covered by the „War on
drugs“ or that soon could be (or any other „prescription“ drug like
painkillers). I drink a glass of champagne maybe 4-6 times a year and coffee
about 3 cups a day. I prefer a glass of fresh orange juice (which I perceive
as real luxury) and self-baked bread over any sort of alcoholic beverage (I
like beer a lot, but 99% drink the non-alcoholic version).

------
nicholas73
Non-software engineer - don't use any drugs, no idea if any of my coworkers
do. Probably not... my job environments have been way too stale.

I don't even drink coffee - I fall asleep regardless. Smoking weed never got
me "high" or whatever that's like - I just end up with a scratchy throat. I
can drink my share but don't do it on my own - and now that I rarely drink, I
just get the shits even having a couple of beers.

Either I'm a really boring person, or the drug scene is way overblown.

------
Snowwombat
IT devops here, Australia, also worked in Electronic engineering, as well,
about 20 years experience all up.

Stimulants are heavily abused,usually various forms of legal ones like Dexi
Amphetamine, Adderall, Vyvance etc

You get the occasional cocaine user, but not a lot of meth heads, they tend to
burn out fast.

There is a pretty big work hard / play hard culture so a lot of drinking after
hours, and party drugs during the times we have off. (Cocaine, MDMA)

Not a huge amount of weed smokers in IT Devops, not much use of drugs like
LSD.

------
superfamicom
I am a web developer, male, early 30s. I consume marijuana/weed every day in
some form, typically vapepen but sometimes flower or beverage before yoga. I
was microdosing LSD for about a year with great results, but enjoy it more not
microdosing but social interaction becomes more frustrating, other trade offs.
I've used DMT and derivatives, but they weren't as beneficial as LSD. Lots of
experimentation but these are the ones that stuck around.

------
dqpb
I drink three cups of English Breakfast a day. If I try going without it I get
a really irritating headache.

If Im feeling extra sluggish I'll upgrade to the strong stuff - PG Tips!

~~~
alex_hitchins
Without wanting to sound like a pusher, you tried Yorkshire Gold? Go on, give
it a go.

------
hprotagonist
In no particular order: the use of caffeine, alcohol, cannabis, adderall, and
modafinil are absolutely rife in the academic research world.

Postdocs and young faculty, in particular.

~~~
Eilene
For all the same reasons it's used in tech--to enhance productivity? are
junior faculty and post docs overworked or are the hours required of them kind
of insane too?

~~~
Hooke
I'm a junior academic, recently a postdoc, and I saw a little bit of ADHD
stimulant use among peers, and the increasing popularity of modafanil.
Basically just due to publication pressure; in my field assistant professors
at a top flight university have to write not one but two peer reviewed books
to get tenure. Others go in an orthogonal direction and get obsessed with
intense exercise routines, also with the aim of increasing those ~six hours of
usable cognitive time per day.

MDMA and cannabis are both quite popular and talked about openly but I think
that's more a general reflection of the culture in places like NYC and the Bay
Area, where I have personal experience.

Good luck with the book by the way. One word of warning: please try very hard
to avoid falling into a simplistic narrative that will contribute to drug
prohibition. Criminalization of drugs has, IMO, ruined far more lives than
drugs themselves. A former Columbia colleague, Carl Hart, professor in the
psych department, has written a lot on this and might be worthwhile as an
interview subject for your book. Personally I think he sometimes pushes too
far in the opposite direction, but he is nevertheless an important public
voice speaking up against decades of scaremongering.

~~~
Eilene
I am not trying in anyway to contribute to prohibition (and history shows it
doesn't work anyway). But I'll keep your warning in mind, sincerely. And I'll
track down Carl Hart. Thanks.

~~~
Eilene
Just realized I've reached out to Hart but have not heard back.

------
russelluresti
I've worked in SV for the last 3 years at one of the top 5 tech companies, and
I haven't seen much drug use, personally. I would say that there's a
significant percentage that have/had medical marijuana cards and would either
smoke or partake in edibles, but marijuana use is the only drug I've seen
first-hand. I haven't even heard of anyone doing other drugs here, though I'm
sure it happens.

------
mncolinlee
I haven't really noticed much of anything in recent years. That should be
surprising, since many of our sites are in states that have legal weed.
However, there's a decent amount of coffee use and many of us drink a
microbrew beer late in the afternoon once or twice a week. I believe the
Ballmer Effect is real, but it's also risky and no one wants to be perceived
as having a drinking problem.

------
ozzmotik
i may have a somewhat atypical story and experience to share with you as i was
certainly a heavy user of mind altering substances during the period of the
past where I was a white collar software engineer. ive sent you an email about
it, hopefully we can discuss it there. but all that aside I am madly
interested in the potential output of this project as it has strong relevance
to my individual life path.

~~~
Eilene
I will be checking that email too, later today, and will respond. Thank you.

------
TACIXAT
Probably not what you're looking for, but I've cut out anything remotely
addicting in my life, including sugar and caffeine. I feel a lot of people in
the software industry have the luxury of developing and improving themselves.
Most people I work with exercise regularly. Alcohol can be regular in some
offices, and people smoke weed, but I don't know anyone who I would consider
an addict.

------
werber
I have had a fairly large amount of coworkers who microdose LSD to tackle
heavy problems. They all seemed to speak of it very highly, but a few of them
ended up using harder drugs because they bought it along with their LSD via
whatever dark web channel they used. One person in particular moved from just
microdosing to using Crystal Meth, while still being a highly functional
developer.

------
zqfm
I've been doing software development in a small midwestern town for ~10 years.
Most people drink coffee, but only a handful that I've known take other
stimulants. In my (completely anecdotal) experience, the people who drink
coffee or take drugs feel dependent on them for performance, but don't
actually perform better or worse than those who don't.

------
rthomas6
The company I work for does a lot of defense sector work, so most of us have a
clearance.

I know of zero drug use besides the occasional social drinking. It seems like
half of us, including me, practically live off of caffeine, but that's it.
Using any drug could result in loss of your clearance (and hence, job), so if
anyone were using, they would be unlikely to let it be known.

------
burnermoto
dont work in tech, Work in direct patient-care. When patients are admitted as
in paitientswe ask health hx questions. People tend to be very honest with
health care workers and always tell the truth about their substance use.
Whenever i see a (usually) Caucasian male btw 25-45, its always cardiac issues
and there's always coke in their hx. These are not losers living in their moms
basement, it's Yale town yuppies, coal harbour finance guys,north van
architects etc that thought they could handle it, till that angina kicked in.
These guys get the benefit of the doubt, but First Nation males and people
that live on the DTES dont. You have no idea how many patient charts i see,
that clearly say " DO NOT DISCUSS SUBSTANCE ISSUES WITH FAMILY/FRIENDS IN
ROOM" as the patient hasn't told them and doesn't want them to know. At least
we have a more progressive approach to substance abuse. This abstinence, just
say no Nancy Reagan BS is unrealistic

~~~
kridsdale1
I appreciate seeing the Vancouver perspective. I don’t live there anymore but
I went to UBC and the openness about drugs in Canada was surprising. Like
everyone’s attitude was “we’ll be fine, have some fun, none of it really
matters”.

------
daddykotex
I'm working in a small/medium business in Montreal, Canada. I've been hear for
almost 3 years and AFAIK no body here takes stimulant.

Of course I might be wrong, but I know a lot of these people well enough to
call them my friends and I have not see anyone taking stimulant nor overheard
anyone talking about their consumption.

You can contact me too, no problem.

------
no_real_names
TL;DR: I've had issues with alcohol in the past, and am currently on
prescription drugs to focus at work.

I've bounced around a bit.

After losing my job in '00 I started drinking pretty heavily. That was
probably my worst period, and definitely in the abuse zone. I was able to pull
myself out of it long enough to get work, which helped me keep out of trouble
with it for a while.

In '06 I was working in the banking sector in NYC. There was a pretty string
drinking culture there. Never at work, but afterwards you'd head out to bars
and have a half dozen beers, then maybe go to a whiskey bar. I'd stumble home
at least one night per week.

I had to do a lot of introspection about this and decide whether I wanted
alcohol in my life at all. In the end I feel like my drinking was trying to
avoid a shitty point in my life. If I hit a point like that again I stop
drinking altogether (this has happened once since then, and it went well). But
otherwise I don't really worry about it. I probably drink about twice/month,
and usually only a drink or two when we go out for a nice dinner.

These days I've been having focus issues. I've always been borderline ADD.
After my son was diagnosed with ADHD he started on Methylphenidate (in the
Ritalin family) and I saw a night and day difference. So I saw a
psychopharmacologist and I'm taking 60 mg Vyvanse (in the Adderall family)
most work days. I don't use it when I'm not working, and I never stack more
than one. But there has been a lot of pressure to keep up with peers. I'm 38
years old and have two kids, working as a software engineer at Google, my team
lead is 22, and the average age of the group is 23. I just can't match their
work-life balance. The Vyvanse keeps me focused on my job, and my peers and
manager have noticed and commented on the increased productivity.

I've gone through periods when I smoked pot heavily to unwind from stressful
work. These days I smoke extremely rarely.

After dabbling in the alcohol addiction, I don't want to fall back in that, so
I keep a pretty close eye on myself. My wife also feels comfortable telling me
if she thinks there's a problem, so I feel supported by the people around me.

------
err4nt
Here in Canada I've seen caffeine, tobacco, alcohol, and cannabis in the
office, all seem generally well tolerated. I have heard of people taking
narcolepsy drugs for productivity, but that was just one person I knew and I
have never really seen people taking, or talking about taking much else at
work.

------
alexandercrohde
What I wish people were saying on this thread are:

1\. Do their friends in tech partake more/less/same than non-tech friends?
Because I know people in tech who've done shrooms etc, but way way less than
the ones outside of tech.

2\. This would be better viewed quantitatively, seeing the whole gambit of
responses here.

~~~
ryandrake
Yea, if there is one conclusion from this thread it’s that this topic is in
dire need of solid academic study and measurement.

------
drosan
Hardly a drug, but I take a "cosmonaut pills", Phenylpiracetam, for years. No
side effects for me (tho it varies from person to person as I saw), but
compared to Adderal (which I'd gladly take but it is too much pain to obtain
here) it is like kiddie vitamins.

------
sarahmm100
I have a masters and I’ve been taking adderall and other forms of it for 10
years. I now live in San Fran and have a lot of inside info on founders and
tech people who use all sorts of drugs. Email me if you would like to talk
further lifeofsarahmiller@gmail.com

------
instaheat
Sales and cocaine. It's a very real problem. Or not, depending on your view of
it.

I'm in Finance. Mortgage Broker.

Use of cocaine and adderall is rampant to keep going all day long, take calls,
multi-task, and overall just operate at a very high level of efficiency.

------
cheez
Not just white collar, but white people. I crossed a border once with
thousands of dollars in drugs with a pretty white girl (we worked in finance).
No one thought twice. I get the 3rd degree whenever I cross though.

------
sarahmm100
Email me and we can talk lifeofsarahmiller@gmail.com. It won’t be a waste of
time. I live in San Fran , have a masters, date someone in tech and have been
taking adderall and other forms of it for 10 years.

------
drakonka
I just take a few basic supplements regularly: creatine, fish oil, caffeine
with L-Theanine. We also have quiet/"nap" rooms in the office to take a break
in when needed, which are nice.

------
sphix0r
I don't drink coffee but drink 1 to 3 bottles(0.5L each) of club-mate. It
contains caffeine and is not well known to the general public but is in the
Berlin techno and hacker scene.

------
burner890
I'm in my 20s and have worked as an engineer at a top tech company for over a
year. I've seen a moderate amount of drug use during that time. I wouldn't
characterize it as ubiquitous by any means, but it also isn't that uncommon.
I've never heard of any of my coworkers doing drugs at work, but many of them
do them recreationally outside of work and occasionally at work functions.
This all may sound a little judge-y but this is what I know:

Two of the engineers on my team do drugs with some regularity. One likes to
consume MDMA and other club drugs socially when going out with friends (I'd
guess he does it on roughly a semi-monthly basis). The other is a regular
cocaine user. He's somewhat cagey about this, but I suspect he does cocaine at
least weekly. They have told me stories about doing cocaine together with
other people in the office including college interns.

At my company there are also multiple managers in their early 40s/late 30s who
frequently get drunk to the point of blacking out as part of after-hours work
functions. These are guys with wives and kids at home, some of whom are very
senior.

Best guess as to why they tell me this stuff is because my coworkers seem to
assume I smoke a lot of weed (I don't) and therefore feel comfortable telling
me what they get up to outside of work. I also typically drink liberally with
them at the aforementioned work events so I'm seen as somewhat trustworthy.
It's unusual enough that I'm still surprised when I find out my coworkers do
some of these things but try not to judge them for it as I tried a few drugs
in college. I'd probably do them too if I enjoyed drugs more.

The attitude of my manager and others towards this kind of behavior is best
summarized as "the less I know the better". My boss is also pretty young and
definitely has some idea of what young engineers at tech companies get up to.
I get the feeling he willfully turns a blind eye so he doesn't have to feel
responsible for the indiscretions of my teammates.

My take is that there's a little bit of denial about substance abuse within
tech. It becomes very easy to see the drug use described above as normal when
you're in an environment where lots of your peers are doing it and everyone is
extremely well-paid and well-educated and able to rationalize self-destructive
behavior in ways that are hard to argue with. It's a symptom of an industry
that puts a premium on people with a lot of raw intelligence and high work
ethic but not much self awareness.

If you are interested in hearing more feel free to reach out at the email on
my HN profile.

------
brootstrap
did the startup grind for a couple years getting out our MVP and wearing tons
of hats. smoked weed on the daily. Still at the same company a few years
later. Still chillin on the weeds (only on the weekends now) myself. A lot of
my co-workers are pretty straight-edge, vegans, no drinking etc. We are in the
midwest though so there is no west-coast fancy cars fast life cocaine shit
going on. Its more about buying a 30 pack of cheap busch lite and gettin drunk
in some corn fields

------
mrmondo
I can answer any questions you have around Modafinil and Armodafinil over a 4~
year period. If that’s of interest to you free to contact me via DM on twitter
- @s_mcleod

------
throwaway4speed
I'm a male in my mid-40s. I own a web development shop, code daily and employ
about a half dozen people. Relatively healthy, although should work out more
than I do. Long history with stimulants and work.

These days my main stimulant is coffee, but it makes me very jittery. I go
through phases, maybe weeks to months at a time where I ditch coffee and take
small doses (< 5 mg) of Adderall. I think I'm starting one of those phases
now.

This morning I was stressed about a new client kickoff, so I took about 5mg of
Adderall IR, along with the rest of the dozen or so supplements that I
normally take. But I didn't drink my normal morning coffee and now I have a
wicked headache. I hate overdoing it on the Adderall, because it changes my
personality too much--makes me cold and distant from my friends and family.

My last startup, with big time VC funding--the whole startup team, myself
included were heavy daily users of Adderall. It was an open secret. The CEO
was the worst, with a 40-50mg/day habit. The COO was over the top neurotic,
I'm sure made worse by her Ritalin habit. Biggest victim in that situation?
Empathy and true friendship.

My last startup before that one, was a YC-backed bay area with a CEO also on
mega doses of daily Adderall. This guy was the worst person I've ever worked
with, and that is quite an accomplishment. He didn't sleep and insulted
everyone on a regular basis. Would criticize everyone behind their backs about
not working enough.

My own stimulant use and abuse dates back to my very first startup when I was
just a programmer, during the first dotcom boom. My partying friends
introduced me to meth, and I rationalized taking it based on the fact that it
is available in prescription form, so "how bad can it be?" and that also I was
clearly suffering from extreme ADD.

I was a daily user for over a year and a half. Would crush up the crystals and
snort them. Was terrified of smoking or injecting the stuff and never tried it
that way. Totally rationalized my use as necessary for the insane hours my
team was putting in at work. 60-70 hours per week were normal. On some weekend
I'd go out and party all night and not get any sleep. Eventually as the needed
dose went up, I started losing a lot of weight, was down 100 pounds from my
peak at one point. People were definitely noticing I was strung out although
nobody ever really said anything at work. My close friends were aware and
supportive. Some of them would do it sometimes too. I quit when it seemed my
girlfriend was going to start using too--she wanted to be skinny and beautiful
and popular, in her words. My conscience hit me too hard in realizing what was
about to happen with that particular situation. Also I didn't really recognize
my face in the mirror anymore. I flushed about 500 dollars worth down the
toilet and quit cold turkey, knowing that I wouldn't be able to afford to buy
more even if I wanted to do so.

My boss fired me about 2 weeks later. Said something had changed, that I had
lost my spark. I'll never forgive that asshole for that. He knew what was
going on and didn't care. It was only fine because my next job had me flying
all over the place and making new friends, which made quitting a lot easier
than it would have been otherwise.

I still miss meth sometimes. It gave me invincibility. I would code for what
felt like days at a time, and all the practice really let me make strides in
my skills very quickly. For a brief period of time I was superhuman, but there
was almost always a crash. During those days I was using a lot of other drugs
too and going out partying a lot, it all kind of blurred together. I barely
remember it now more than 15 years later.

Quitting meth left me paranoid about getting hooked again for quite awhile
afterwards, but after maybe 2-3 years realized that the ADD is real and that I
really did need some meds to cope. I went to the shrink and easily got a
script for Adderall. The first time around I remember that I was on it daily
for almost a year before realizing that I didn't like who I had become. It
made me cold and unloving and I hated it. I quit again. Ever since I've only
taken it sporadically, when I really really have to focus something that I
really really don't want to focus on.

Don't really have any regrets. Drugs should be legal--all of them. People
should be able to decide how to use them and live with the consequences.
Sometimes they're not that bad. Just think of how many people do coke on a
regular basis and don't really have any ill effects. It just comes with the
lifestyle of going out and staying out til dawn. And then eventually you grow
up and don't want to do that anymore. At least that's what I've seen amongst
my friends.

------
nordicnarcotic
I'm a programmer. 22M. And oh boy do I love telling other people about drugs!

It started from pure taurine. It made me talkative like coffee and was in
white powder form like cocaine.

Nowadays, it has come to the point that a friend of mine has started giving me
a notice that once I am drunk, I don't shut up about drugs. Last time he said,
in a very lightweight manner, that maybe I have a drug problem. Couple weeks
later, I sent him some giddy messages, and I got a response asking am I baked
again. I got upset, as I was not, I was merely having a happy moment. Then it
drew upon me. I had taken modafinil that day.

I've also powered myself with caffeine, usually in the form of Red Bull and
coffee. I also cut pure caffeine when I need an extra kick. I do it with a
razor blade, as it looks cool. The terrible thing is, I have to remember which
stack is the caffeine one and which one is modafinil. That's easier though if
I'm cold, then I use pseudoephedrine, which is in capsules. The Ritalin which
I have is stashed elsewhere.

I did not always use amphetamines. At one point, I consumed 60oz of coffee a
day instead. Then one day the wall appeared, e.g., I crashed, and I was sent
to ER. Doctors thought I have a blood clot in my heart, and I might die. That
experience gave me a PTSD, to which I got opioids. The opioids are the best
drug I've ever had.

Later on, a co-worker asked me whether I had thought about just moving to
Adderall, which some of them have a prescription for.

I also use cannabis. I find it the best way to start the weekend. It gets my
thoughts away from work and school. Some of my friends use LSD instead. For
example, my roommate might lock up to his room, ask not to be disturbed. That
means drugs. But, he sold a company and is in VC now. This validated substance
use as a fair thing to do.

But, I've worked on two different continents. Where I am from, the Nordics,
condemns brain doping. In the US, all the answers were in a pill form. Ask and
get it. Here, it's a bad idea. You get in on a record, but you don't get the
pills you _wanted to_. Tobacco products, snus or smoked, and alcohol, are fine
of course. I also use those. Snus during work sometimes, alcohol never.

The sad thing is, and worth mentioning is that the working hours are
different. I don't have to put myself on the line here to qualify for a good
contractor. It's almost as people lack the ambition, but I guess that's more
or less what a work-life balance means. I don't like it here.

Which brings us to the sad part. Despite comfortable life, I continue to push
myself with stretch goals, which bring me back to substance use. I think I
have a problem with wanting to do more than necessary. In the US, I came to my
flat every day empty-headed, drank chamomile tea and went to sleep. I was
mentally drained every day, but it felt like this is what my hefty paycheck is
substituted off. Now I'm paid more, and if it just would suffice for me, I
could bare it with coffee only.

Unfortunately, I feel like there are two phases in my working life. The first
one was without amphetamines, and the next one was with them. So it is not
just about working anymore, it is working without amphetamine.

~~~
nordicnarcotic
For some reason, I can't edit my post, so I'll just self-reply: In the
Nordics, none of my peers use drugs.

~~~
inDigiNeous
How do you know ? Another Nordic here.

------
ptsdhacker
One thing I think is important is that people have such a wide array of
backgrounds, I think it's a mistake to simply categorize them as white-collar,
without examing how they got to where they were.

I've been in IT for years, but before that I was in the military, saw combat,
and developed PTSD. IT is just one of the things I'm good at that pays the
bills, but that alone wouldn't tell you my story of drugs.

I got out and immediately used my GI bill to go to uni. I was drinking _a lot_
at the time though. I got up to about a fifth every two days. This was for a
lot of reasons. The transition from infantry to civilian life so quickly was
rough. I was the oldest person in most of my classes of smartass 18 year old
rich kids who mommy and daddy paid their way to college and bought them
vehicles etc. I became bitter about the war and started researching it further
and fell further into disgust because I realized how much of it was a lie. I
made some ROTC cadets cry because I snapped when I saw them doing a "patrol"
on campus with poor dispersion and yelled at them. I failed out of a math
class... things were generally not headed in a good direction.

Then the tables turned, and it was all thanks to cannabis. See, I was always
brought up anti-drug, so I was one of the few outliers who literally never did
drugs in high-school of any sort other than alcohol and caffeine. As part of
my military goals of getting and maintain clearance I also was very strict
with myself about drugs, always feeling contempt and disgust for those who
particpated in them. (not realizing the hypocricy and double-standard when it
came to tobacco and alcohol).

So it wasn't until after two semesters of this downward spiral that a friend
pulled me into his room, and said he wanted to talk to me about cannabis. He
said he knew my position, but that being scientific minded I should read up on
the scientific facts known about it and then read some first hand experience
articles from a place called erowid. After a few weeks of reading every
scientific paper I could get my hands on, and reading a few erowid posts from
other PTSD military types, I finally decided I was a civilian now, I could
give it a shot.

Cannabis literally saved me from becoming (or staying) an alcoholic. It was an
almost instant turn around. I found being drunk disgusting. I stopped smoking
tobacco completely. (Smoked a pack of cigs a day in-country, quit cold turkey
when I left Iraq for the last time, but continued to smoke cigars/pipe tobacco
every once in a while.) I found myself able to process things better. I was
getting sleep I had before had to be drunk to get (hypervigilance is a bitch).
I was being nicer to other students and not as standoffish, and started making
friends.

I eventually quit college to do a startup that I left a few years later but
that is still going strong. I stayed in the industry and have been in IT
since. This sounds like a success story right? That's not all.

What I didn't tell you was I lived in the bible belt, in a state where it
was/is illegal. I started having issues with the demographic... that is to say
the people. I started having issues despite fairly regularly smoking cannabis,
and started drinking again at the same time (cross-fading). I eventually got
so fed up with the area I was in I jumped ship and moved to the east coast,
where I had a support structure, to try to finally get help from the VA.

The VA was horrible. They put me on shit that made me feel like a zombie
(trazodone in particular, but all of it did it.) Finally I realized the VA was
not helping, (the most help I got was from learning how CBT and CBET worked
from an independent org), stopped all their bullshit drugs which I think are a
_major_ health problem, stopped drinking, and came back to my state. I didn't
mean to stay. I just wanted to catch up with family and friends, and was
intending to go to Seattle because cannabis had just been legalized, and then
I met a that woman I fell in love with.

I ended up staying in my state, but my SO had a druggie brother and an alcohol
dad, and many concerns about the illegality of it, so my usage of cannabis, no
matter when or in what amounts, became a fighting issue. So I tried to quit
(because love is more important than anything right?). What ended up happening
though is that I fell into this vicious cycle where I would have a
particularly rough time for a while and would give in, toke up furiously for a
week or two, cause a fight, and then quit only to find myself drinking instead
(even once started dipping for a few months as my _vice_ to replace the
others, and let me tell you dipping is nasty as hell). Then I'd be "good" for
a while until I had another hard time (like a week of super bad hypervigilance
at night causing very little sleep), and the cycle would repeat. Obviously
this eventually ended the relationship.

I tried very hard to keep this all in my personal life though, and protect my
professional life from those troubles. This whole time I was performing fairly
well in my job(s). I could have been doing so much better, but I was surviving
given the double life I was leading. Eventually the stress leaked though, and
I ended up quitting my job with very little notice because of an unrelated
unhappiness there (being underpayed).

So now I am now using the rest of my GI bill to go to an online school and
finish my degree while I job search in legalized states so I don't have to
deal with the paranoia surrounding it's legality. I determined it was my
medicine and I deserve to have my medicine without feeling guilt or ashamed or
being scared of being arrested.

That said, I wanted to test myself to see how bad things are as a baseline, so
I am now two months drug free (minus caffeine) and despite the ol PTSD rearing
it's head a bit, it's better than it ever has been and I intend to stay drug
free until I make it to a legal state.

Right now my main internal discussion is if I am willing to be on a list of
patients in a medical only state or if I find anonymity important enough to
only go to a recreationally legal state.

That's my story. I hope it's useful to you in some way or interesting to
others.

------
vimcat
Stimulunts such as speed or ice, are not so good for me, It’s not for creative
work also comedown is so hard.

Acid and Molly are best.

------
purplezooey
Loved that story in the nytimes. Keep up the good work. I think you're on to
something here.

------
monksy
Is this observational, a study, or do you get to do "research" with the
participants?

------
jes5199
last year, someone was telling me that at an Ayahuasca retreat in Peru (?)
they bumped into a team of programmers from a startup who hoped to use the
visionary trace to come up with new applications for the Etherium blockchain

------
kelukelugames
I know lots of people do pot.

Don't forget the alcohol!

What about other kinds off addictions like porn?

~~~
ponderatul
I wanted to mention this as well. Porn is the one that mostly gets away in
these discussions. It kills motivation, enhances anxiety and depression over
the long term. And these are just first order effects. It can easily affect
your relationships, work and personal, and make you numb. It's something with
limited upside, that feeling of ecstasy when orgasming which has been reported
similar to that of heroine. But that is short lived. Other than that there are
only downsides.

OP If you're interested in the topic, I'm happy to go deeper into the subject.

------
unsayable
I have strong opinions about this, because like most developers, I've tried to
see how I can use drugs to augment my life.

As a programmer at a startup, everyone seems to accept marijuana, alcohol, and
caffeine as acceptable, though I think it's considered unacceptable to be high
at work (but probably nobody would care). Opiates are considered taboo, and
rightfully so. Adderall is prevalent and easily available.

For me personally, after an exploratory phase of trying all the drugs, I've
figured this much out:

* MDMA, LSD, mushrooms, 2-Cs, etc can be great for expanding your world view and generating new ideas or as therapy, but aren't really helpful in a white-collar worker sense. None of my peers would judge each other based on use these weekend drugs, but IMO they shouldn't really have a routine place in anyone's life. I'm pretty sure this is why people go to burning man, as a sort of drug-induced retreat.

* Dissociatives (ketamine, DXM) are a strange class of drugs. I believe that ketamine or dextromethorphan will ultimately be seen as the most effective treatment for chronic depression. These probably don't have any place for daily use, but could be useful to get out of a depressive state. The research isn't in yet on this though, so tread with care.

* Cocaine has supply chain issues, so I refuse to try it, but it's also very expensive and doesn't seem to be that effective for productivity compared to alternatives.

* Modafinil and armodafinil have gained popularity lately (probably because of grey-market sales), and they're super effective for staying awake, but not very effective for improving productivity.

* Amphetamines (adderall, vyvanse, dexedrine) and phenidates (ritalin, focalin) are super useful, but have to be used with care. I have an adderall prescription which I use a couple times a week to power through the week's work. This is great for me because I work from home and can spend an uninterrupted day or two crushing the work for the week. These drugs are unfortunately prescribed daily for ADHD patients like myself, but you'd have to be insane to take them every day. You'll quickly burn out after about a week and be worse off than you were before you started taking them. People consuming massive amounts of caffeine probably need one of these drugs instead. These drugs are addictive, but not seriously so... stopping will mean a couple days of rest before going back to normal.

* Benzos (xanax, klonopin, etc) are super useful for anxiety, but the same rule applies to be careful. They're only useful a couple times a week before you develop an addiction problem. Xanax is great for getting to sleep and resetting your schedule, and klonopin is great for when you're going to have a super stressful day with things outside of your control and you'd like to temper your emotions a bit. These drugs make you not give a fuck and feel great, which can be a problem for some, but is another tool in the toolbox of the responsible drug user. I have also have a prescription for both klonopin and xanax, but my doctor knows I don't take them daily. Almost anyone drinking alcohol daily probably actually needs a benzo and counseling about responsible use. I don't use alcohol for stress relief, but I will have a few drinks at a party. These drugs are addictive, but very seriously so... stopping suddenly once you've developed an addiction can cause erratic behavior and seizures.

* Tobacco seems generally frowned upon, but vaping is somewhat acceptable. Sometimes I vape low amounts of nicotine to help deal with stress, but I always regret it and end up quitting. It's much easier to quit than cigarettes.

* Marijuana I use daily, usually after work and before bed. My doctor thinks I might have PTSD from various life events, and I have some very disturbing dreams. Marijuana both lets me change my perspective, which helps to end the work day or shift my mood when I'm really upset about something, and it lets me turn off dreaming while I sleep so I can get better rest. If I stop using marijuana, no withdrawal happens, but disturbing dreams do.

* I don't like opiates, so I don't take them and don't know that much about them, other than they seem to cause the most problems for the most people. I would love to understand how people enjoy them though... They make you feel warm and sleepy, but with nausea and constipation. I don't think this is a good trade.

If I wasn't a relatively privileged person as a tech worker, I would likely
not be able to go to my doctor and demand adderall, xanax, and klonopin while
being open about my marijuana use. It is nice, however, to have a drug toolbox
that's completely legal and insurance paid (well, except for the weed).

All together, I would say that drugs (whether prescription, off-label, or
illicit) have had a hugely net positive impact on my life, both professional
and personal.

Let me know if I can answer any questions for you and good luck with your
project. I hope you'll find that education and safe access are better than
prohibition.

~~~
pinchharmonic
Great overview. Could you go more in depth with your experiences with the
first group and second group?

------
rootsudo
LSD, Ritalin (Daytrana is the best man), Terestrone...

~~~
Eilene
Do you use all of these? And why do you like Daytrana?

------
coleifer
Drop me an email, you can find it in my profile.

~~~
Eilene
I will do that. Forgive me, I'm new to HN. When I click on your handle, I
don't see an email. Do I find it somewhere else?

~~~
coleifer
Didn't know it wasn't shown, I've added to the about section of my profile.
Long history with dope, happy to share if it'll help you.

 _edit_ : I'm a senior software engineer

~~~
Eilene
so dope meaning weed right?

~~~
coleifer
No..

------
hguhghuff
Drugs make you less smart and you need to be as smart as possible to program.

I've never once in 30 year career noticed anyone taking stimulants to enhance
their work.

------
Power_User
I will say first that my current position in life comes with exceptionally
uncommon circumstances and so I'm not a good measuring stick to use against
others. I've been a programmer for decades but I am also a combat veteran,
during which time I saw and did many things that even the movies don't show. I
was an alcoholic for many years, mostly in response to those things.

But besides that, I am am a lifelong recreational drug user. I have a special
relationship with addiction in that I stop myself from getting in too deep.
Before I continue, I'll address the overbearing people who think all people
should live the way they do and say that yes, I'm completely and utterly aware
of my own vulnerability and the knowledge that I'm not invincible or
exceptional is actually what keeps me so acutely aware of my own drug use. I
keep myself as informed as possible about the substances I use through the use
of dose journals, where I track every substance I put into my body (including
e.g. caffeine and regular food), along with as much ancillary information as
possible, such as my sleep patterns and mood. I spend money to test the
substances I buy to ensure they're not adulterated. As for the addiction, I've
been bitten a couple of times over my entire life of drug use, early on as a
young adult, but for example if I recognize that I'm flirting with addiction,
I will just cold turkey whatever substance I'm using and allow my body and
brain to "heal". I think it's a willpower issue which allows me to maintain
control over the substances, because I've never in my life chased after a high
such that I got to a point where it would be dangerous. Even with
pharmaceutical opiates, I would completely stop taking them far, far before I
ever let myself get to a point where I might be in danger. Willpower and also
being informed. I am the only person I've ever met that cares so much about
testing my drugs, keeping logs of my drug use, and _never_ taking drugs in
dangerous amounts in combination or chasing a high.

So, for the sake of productivity and mental efficiency, I take stimulants
pretty regularly these days, but rarely on a daily basis. Adderall and
methylphenidate (Ritalin). I swap these prescriptions with my doctor pretty
regularly to avoid addiction. I occasionally smoke marijuana. I occasionally
take kratom. I do drink caffeine almost on a daily basis, but I can get too
busy to remember to make a cup of coffee or grab a Monster from the fridge.

In the past, for recreation, I have used pharmaceutical opiate painkillers,
MDMA, mushrooms, LSD, cocaine, and raw opium. I am _extremely_ careful _not_
to chase the high! I am completely at peace with the fact that I cannot feel
good at all times, and feeling down or "just okay" is as much a part of life
as sleeping. As far as others in the companies where I've worked, I am aware
that a small minority of my coworkers used some drugs recreationally, and I am
aware that a minority of my coworkers used _pharmaceutical_ stimulants,
although the vast majority do use stimulants on a daily basis through
caffeine. I think the "drug-using" proportion of my coworkers is a minority,
and mostly clustered around the use of pharmaceutical stimulants and
marijuana, if we're not counting coffee and tea.

------
outsidetheparty
The usage patterns I've observed in other techies matches suspiciously closely
to my own -- which _really_ tends to support the selection bias that many
other people have mentioned: drug users tend to be very much birds-of-a-
feather, they cluster among their own kind and tend not to notice the other
types unless they're being really unsubtle about it.

So with that grain of salt in mind, here's what I've got. The context here is
long-term contracting at a wide variety of different offices ranging from
button-down big corporate, to tiny angel-funded startups, over a couple
decades. All US, mostly outside silicon valley.

Pot: not uncommon, but also not noticeably more or less than the general
population as far as I can tell. Most often as a wind-down-after-work thing,
very occasionally as a brainstorming tool among the design folks -- never seen
this done openly in-office, but on a telecommute day or after hours it
wouldn't be too terribly unusual. I did some work with a company in post-
legalization Colorado; people there had much the same attitude toward it as in
areas where it's still not legal. Which is, increasingly, No Big Deal.

Alcohol: I have the general impression that coders tend to drink slightly less
than the general population. With a few exceptions, the ones really hitting
the bar hard at the sales meetings and the corporate retreats tended to be
from sales and marketing. For what it's worth I know a lot more people who are
alcoholics (or former alcoholics) outside the tech industry than I do inside
it.

Stimulants: I'm sure there are people using Adderall or the like as a
productivity enhancer, but I've never heard anyone discuss it, and have no
idea how that usage would compare to the rest of the population. The idea that
"everyone has to take adderall to keep up with the rest of the team, it's just
so competitive!" is a common thing sounds... odd. (I'm not saying it never
happens or doesn't exist. I'm saying that in 20 years of work I've never seen
an office that worked that way.) I know of exactly zero coders or designers
who use stimulants recreationally. There was one obvious cokehead of a CEO,
who was the subject of a fair amount of eye-rolling behind his back; and I've
known a few sales guys, investor types, and non-technical managers who were
prone to the occasional burst of jitteriness and sniffles, but I've never seen
anything like that among the tech people. (I had honestly been under the
impression that cocaine had mostly gone out of fashion, until some friends who
work in the restaurant industry set me straight. If you want coke, talk to a
line cook, apparently.)

Hallucinogens / psychedelics: Not at all uncommon as a "oh yeah I used to do a
lot of that back in the day," or, like, "only when I go to burning man /
firefly / my pagan festival / etc". Not so much beyond that. Nobody has that
kind of free time.

Other: It's difficult for me to imagine downers or opiates being at all
compatible with technical work, but perhaps that's just naivety on my part.
Prescribed antidepressants are quite common, and have little stigma attached
these days. Tobacco smokers are few and far between. I wouldn't be terribly
surprised to learn that some of the younger developers are doing ecstasy or
whatever counts as club drugs now, but I'm too old to get invited to that sort
of party anymore, so have no direct information for you.

~~~
tmp-20150107
it seems these are common attitudes:

> [heroin's] effects are fundamentally incompatible with the "head space"
> geeks need to be in 24x7 to be even remotely capable of doing the work they
> do.

> It's difficult for me to imagine downers or opiates being at all compatible
> with technical work

> Meth, crack and heroin are hugely frowned upon, it's a failure to be a user
> of these

it depends. as a heroin addict, I _need_ the heroin (well, methadone now, as
well) to be physically and mentally well enough to work. without them, i'd be
a wreck. now, if i took a large shot of heroin, i'd nod out and couldn't work,
but i have had a morning injection every day for years to get going. of
course, i do feel like heroin has made me slightly less intelligent, i guess
the equivalent of ~10+ iq points lost, maybe. but i can certainly produce good
quality technical work, and have been recognised for this by peers, so it's
_possible_ , just not _advisable_ ;) and of course, i'm selling myself short,
since i'm probably capable of much more or better, at least i hope i will be
once i am properly clean - maybe this year will be the one?

interestingly, i've not met any other heroin using it professionals in real
life, but probably for the obvious reason they don't want to make it known. i
could probably tell if i checked, e.g. pinned, tiny pupils, that sort of
thing, but i'm just not looking for it in the work environment. a consequence
of trying to blend in is that it imposes a high cognitive load that takes away
from other thinking i might be doing - i generally have to lie about non-work
activities or be vague and non-committal, and so on.

~~~
outsidetheparty
Totally fair point -- that was indeed my naivety talking; opiates aren't
something I have any experience with outside of a hospital.

And you're absolutely right to point out that all of this is skewed by the
fact that different categories of (current- or former) drug user will tend to
be more covert about it than others, for a wide variety of reasons.

------
drugsintech2018
Temporary account for obvious reasons, feel free to direct message me, if
you'd like to discuss in further detail. I apologize for the length of the
post in advance :)

Most of my experiences are filtered through the lens of working at companies
in the SF Bay Area, with "a good work-life balance". This is effectively code
for "we recognize that the work week is approximately 9-5 or 10-6, Monday-
Friday". California has had legalized medical Marijuana for a few years, and
recently legalized commercial sale of recreational Marijuana. In this comment,
I'll try to offer a survey of what I've seen other people in tech doing, as
well as what I myself have been doing.

By far, the most prolific and most visible mood-affecting substances are
Alcohol and Caffeine. In every company where I've worked, these were freely
available to employees, and consumed socially.

Caffeine feels like a major component of programmer culture. There's a
plethora of boutique coffee shops peppering San Francisco, and having a
discriminating coffee taste seems to be a mark of refinement. It's worth
noting the popular software engineering book, Code Complete - the cover most
prominently features a keyboard, and a cup of coffee - suggesting these are
the essential tools of programming.

Personally, I consume coffee once or twice a day, and make a bit of conscious
effort to limit my dependence, and not become too tolerant. I have a bit of
difficulty keeping a regular sleep schedule and getting enough sleep, and
caffeine helps counteract that.

At multiple companies I've worked at, beer was freely available, on-tap from a
keg. However, it generally was not consumed during work hours, but after-
hours, socially. Companies also tend to host happy hours on certain Fridays,
with a variety of mixed drinks available and a party theme. Tech-related
meetups are typically sponsored and hosted at a company office, and free beer
is provided. Broad use of public transit, or Uber, likely resolve potential
problems with drunk driving, I'm unsure on that point. I've not typically seen
people drink to excess at work functions, but it's not unheard of for someone
to get themselves fired at a holiday party. A taste for unique beers seems to
also be a social mark of refinement.

Personally, I don't consume alcohol. This is a bit unusual, and usually raises
some questions from coworkers, but the choice is generally respected and I
don't experience any pressure to drink. That said, it still feels a bit
alienating to have an unusual stance on drinking, and a bit alienating when
there's a variety of unique mixed drinks or small-brew beers available, and
only water/coke for non-alcoholic options. Non-drinkers are respected, but not
considered.

I know a few people who smoke Tobacco, but it seems to be very rare. It's
looked down on a bit, and there's several health laws restricting where it's
permitted. Vaporizers have made it marginally more accepted. I personally
don't smoke.

My impression is that many coworkers enjoy Marijuana at least occasionally,
but this is far less visible. I've never noticed someone at work smelling
skunky, and it seems like a substance that would completely prevent any kind
of productivity at work.

I recently had my first marijuana experience, via edibles, and quite enjoyed
it. It's not something I am going to make a regular habit of, but it was
fairly inexpensive, and I had basically no negative effects the next day at
work (except for some worse-than-usual sleep).

Purchasing marijuana was one of the most privilege-demonstrating experiences
I've had. Being aware of decades of racial discrimination, of dime bags being
exchanged surreptitiously, etc. With all that, I was able to walk into a well-
lit store, peruse products, stand in line with several respectable-looking
folks wearing tech company hoodies, present an ID, and walk out the door. That
feels a little mind-boggling to me.

At a previous company, I've heard at least one employee openly talk about
having tried mushrooms in the past, and recommending other people try it at
least once.

Other than that, I'm generally unaware of _any_ use of any other mood-altering
substances.

In terms of productivity, it seems much more typical for people to be very
concerned with diet or fitness. There's quite a few vegans, vegetarians,
gluten-free, etc., and many people are involved with a gym, or some outdoor
activity.

My personal philosophy is that good development is a marathon, not a sprint,
and properly maintaining physical and mental health is a key component of
being happy and productive.

Outside of physical substances, video games are also quite popular as a
recreational activity, and my use of them has, at times, bordered on addictive
and life-interfering.

~~~
drugsintech2018
As an additional comment about the 'white-collar' aspect of things...

It's worth reinforcing the state of the job market for successful software
engineers, and how that relates to drug use.

I try to be productive at work, but ultimately, I'm not very stressed about
financial matters or job security. After starting my career, I've never been
without employment for more than a month, and almost never without it being my
choice. I also have a substantial safety buffer.

With those factors, I'm able to have a comfortable and relatively worry-free
life with my partner, and besides a bit of recreational fun, I don't really
feel a need for escape from my life.

I have a bit of an addictive and depressive personality, and I could see
myself abusing substances in a different life situation.

------
guiseroom
Can we email you?

------
inDigiNeous
I am a software developer and someone running their own project. I am a
recovering stimulant addict, and a recovered cannabis addict.

And by stimulants, I mean caffeine in it's various forms. In the beginning
when I was under 20, it started with coding through the weekends with the
power of Pepsi. I used to vomit this black goo out of my body after quickly
guzzling down a 1.5l bottle, and I thought it was just ok, the sugar and
caffeine rush was worth it so I could code through the night. When I started
coding professionally later in my life, when I was 28-29, I would go back to
this connection and always drinking strong black tea while coding. Did this
for many years and though of nothing wrong in it. At some point I started to
gravitate towards green tea and mate. Yerba mate became my favorite stimulant
for a long time.

I thought the caffeine gave me a way to get into the zone, to go deep in the
code and continue that for hours and hours. What I didn't see in the long run
until later, was this habit was eating away my core power, slowly and bit by
bit, and giving me trouble sleeping, something that in combination with deep
depression led to me to discover cannabis as a cure for those. Couple of years
of daily cannabis use by vaporizing, and I thought it was the best thing ever.
Now I could be more creative, focus better, and even get sleep. At this point
when I was bored with my work, I would vape in the morning sometimes and go to
work slightly stoned, thinking I was acing it. I didn't do this very often,
but definitely during a period when I was thinking of quitting my job I was
many times stoned at work, just trying to cope with it.

But slowly this habit started to have it's toll, I was becoming weak,
addicted, I couldn't function without cannabis. I thought it would be easy to
quit, but man, the habit and addiction is strong. Took me over 7 years of
periodical on and off usage to really decide and see how continous use of
cannabis made me make bad decisions, made me think I was creative and able,
while I was making silly creative decisions and letting the drug affect my
work.

Many times while high I would think my work and designs were really beautiful,
but when looking at those sober I would see they were really not something I
would make when I was sober. The drug had it's effect on my work, and it was
not coming purely out of me, but through the filter of that drug. Cannabis
also made me really sensitive to things, not being able to stand my own
opionion, I really didn't care in that mood, I just wanted to escape to that
bubble and be there.

I managed to get out of that habit and thought pattern with serious inner
work. Meditation was the most strongest thing that stayed with me during those
years. It helped me during all the ups and lows and I never needed anything
external to do it, I could rely it being always with me. I wish somebody had
taught me this skill, or told me about it with more persuasion. I always
tought I was ADHD and that I couldn't focus on things long enough. Then I
learned how to quiet my mind, with meditation. It calmed my mind down. It
clears the plate so to speak when done habitually. And it's always with me.
It's the best thing that has happened to me. Seriously.

Anyway, I'm still recovering from the stimulant use. While starting to work on
my own project and startup thing, I went to coffee because I could go to a
nice coffee place and work there without having a workplace, drink one cup of
coffee. Later I would combine this with L-teanine to get the perfect
combination of stimulation and calming down. Little did I know how addictive
coffee was, man that is one strong drug right there. After one year I started
getting panic attacks, something completely new to me, just from drinking one
cup of strong coffee.

Anyway, long story short, caffeine started to put me really towards the edge
and in the long run just drained my energy, I had to quit. Now, finally I have
also gotten out of the psychological pattern of combining coding with
caffeine, it took serious work but now I see that by being sober I have more
focus and sustainable work time, if I am well rested and nutritioned. If the
rest, nutrition or exercise is out of place, I have to fix that first, not try
to push it with stimulants.

I've also worked with many entheogens and psychedelics during the years, which
psilocybine mushrooms, LSD and ayahuasca being the most beneficial for me. I
can't stress enough how much especially mushrooms and ayahuasca have helped me
to heal myself from chronic depression. But those are again only tools, the
inner strength is the one that carries through all of these external tools. In
the software development field, I see many people taking LSD and other
psychedelics, it's really common place, to get visions, to see how to build
things, to heal one self to be able to contribute for making this world a
better place. Heavy stimulants like amphetamines are not really talked about,
but I feel many are doing that also, many with a prescription drug for their
ADHD/ADD perhaps.

------
matte_black
I’m not convinced that productivity is a virtue for software engineers.

I have production code running untouched for over 8 years that was produced in
the laziest straight forward way as possible, simply because I didn’t feel
like working so hard. Indeed, I delayed writing _any_ code until I came up
with an idea of the minimum amount of code I could get away with, then I
minimized that some more. I’ve eliminated entire features by simply
procrastinating them until people realized they didn’t actually need them.

Would a crackhead engineer stop and reflect on the best use of their personal
time on this Earth? Probably not, they’d probably just bull through and slave
away to “get things done” at the altar of productivity.

~~~
zer00eyz
By that same token:

I know of two engineers who are pot smokers (wake up and smoke type of people)
- without pot they are bulls in china shopm with pot they tend to be calmer
and more personable. I don't advocate for self medicating but these two have
it down to a science and it is of benefit to their code quality.

By that same token I can point to two people who smoked pot and wrote the
worst code imaginable....

The difference between them is night and day -

I get a lot of honest reactions from current drug users because I'm very frank
with my past (I ate all the chemicals) -

I think that there is a big set of distinctions between recreation, abuse and
use of drugs, and that every one not only treats what they take differently
but reacts very differently to it as well.

------
setheron
Perhaps an email to send stuff anonymously would be good.

~~~
Eilene
of course. please send to zimmermaneilene@gmail.com.

~~~
jamisonbryant
This looks like it might be your personal email. Consider protecting yourself
by making a temporary email for the purposes of your research such as
booktitle@gmail.com.

~~~
kakarot
Or better, consider protecting those offering their experiences as well by
using an encrypted email provider like protonmail, or offering a GPG key.

~~~
Eilene
I don't know what those are, I'm sorry. I'm not in the industry (software
engineering/tech) so am not familiar with those (though I know they exist). Is
it something I can do in the next hour?

~~~
RandomCSGeek
I'd suggest going through
[https://www.privacytools.io/#email](https://www.privacytools.io/#email).
These providers won't give your data to NSA or third party companies(or at
least this is more likely, than with another provider like google). Given you
are asking for some sensitive data, I'd suggest you use one of these, at least
for this specific project if you can't make the move completely.

------
skookumchuck
I drink a lot of coffee.

------
genemachinery
Can opiate addiction be better understood by young people by comparing it to
Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI) in sports? Crime in football players may be
related to TBI. Both Alzheimer's and TBI patients share Delta FosB peptides.
[https://www.statnews.com/2017/12/07/traumatic-brain-
injury-c...](https://www.statnews.com/2017/12/07/traumatic-brain-injury-crime)
​ Delta FosB protein is seen in epileptics, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI),
addicts and Alzheimer's brains. US football and NHL hockey teams too?
​[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOSB](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOSB) ​
Can NIH work with Genspace in NYC? They teach neurohacking.
[https://www.genspace.org/​](https://www.genspace.org/​) Can students learn
the effects of aging, trauma and addiction via computer simulations? Can they
develop a Brain for Blender TBI model? Showing brain injury? ​See attached
file brain_TBI_simulator.txt showing brain injury and cell_TBI_simulator.txt
capturing TBI. ​ ​New Mexico went from 100 women at Grants Correctional in
1990, today it is over 600. Opiate and meth addiction is ripping many
communities apart. Biology education in NM is basic.
[https://www.amazon.com/Pastoral-Clinic-Addiction-
Dispossessi...](https://www.amazon.com/Pastoral-Clinic-Addiction-
Dispossession-Grande/dp/0520262085)

Many families in NM are broken. When drugs remove women the society breaks
down. ​My wife sees released women inmates and their children living out of
cars at Santa Fe Community College. We volunteer at the Santa Fe Interfaith
Homeless Shelter with addicts to feed and house them. I worked with AIDS
patients in Jamaica, WI in US Peace Corps and alcoholic students in Gallup
UNM. AIDS patients suffer brain issues as the disease progresses. I also work
training women in IT in summer internships at the State of NM. Many work in
NM. I completed a thesis on DNA shotgun sequencing at the US Human Genome
Project at Los Alamos National Lab. I graduated with MS CS at NM Tech while at
LANL.

​My son is now a senior in Chemical/Biomedical engineering at CSU, Fort
Collins building Alzheimer's, TBI, and addiction models using neural
nets/machine learning.
[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWN3xxRkmTPmbKwht9FuE5A?app...](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWN3xxRkmTPmbKwht9FuE5A?app=desktop​)
Unfortunately there are no Chemical/Biomedical Engineering BS programs in New
Mexico? My son has studied the Chinese language. How do we stop importation of
Fentanyl from China?​ [https://www.statnews.com/2018/01/24/china-fentanyl-
usps/​](https://www.statnews.com/2018/01/24/china-fentanyl-usps/​) Delta FosB
protein is seen in epileptics, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI), addicts and
Alzheimer's brains. US football and NHL hockey teams too?
​[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOSB](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOSB) ​
Could a plastic contact lens absorb Delta FosB? Could Korean contact lens be
used to monitor Delta Fosb in addicts? A lower amount could mean effective
drug addiction treatment? Could you develop a contact lens sensor for Delta
FosB? [https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-
now/2018/01/25/th...](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-
now/2018/01/25/these-smart-contact-lenses-could-monitor-your-blood-
sugar/1064754001/)

Delta FosB may be detected in eyes via contact lens? Cheaper than MRI.
[https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaophthalmology/article-a...](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaophthalmology/article-
abstract/635660​)
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11006248](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11006248)

------
thinkmore
The #1 and #2 drugs consumed by far in Silicon Valley are simply
processed/refined sugars and caffeine. The former via foods of all kinds and
sodas, snacks, and the later via coffee and sodas.

These are far more dangerous drugs in this sense... even a small child can
tell you cocaine is bad for you or that LSD is a “drug”, but no one considers
soda and coffee to be drug laced.

These are the real gateway drugs, by far.

If Silicon Valley had decent espresso, no joke, there would be no demand for
any of these stupid drugs people are messing with. But the espresso tastes
like absolute poop. In the bay area you can market and sell poop drinks as
artisinal or small batch or whatever. Its essentially poop. E.g. if you think
blue bottle tastes good, I could sell you a cup of poop for $10 easy because
you have been fooled.

Back to seriousness, the real problem in all of this is failure to understand
the real impacts of seamingly harmless things (processed sugars and caffeine)
NOT obviously harmful substances. There must be a progression from the former
to the latter. Who the fuck wakes up one morning and says: “shit, works been
hard lately, id like to try a line of cocaine, i heard its really great for
relaxation”. Wake up, it doesnt happen like that.

Yes, i have conveniently left alcohol out of this ranking, but its #3. If you
dont know how bad alcohol is for your brain and body... heh...

The real story is the engineer drinking 8+ cups of black coffee or 10 sodas
per day... not the coo ceo or vp doing marijuana or cocaine before work. The
latter knows what theyre doing, they may be depressed but they know whats up.
The former, probably not. And those seemingly safe substances kick off the
dangerous ones.

~~~
projektir
I never really got the point of people referring to things other people eat or
drink with terms like "poop".

~~~
FeteCommuniste
With coffee there is actually a link to poop in some cases:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kopi_Luwak](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kopi_Luwak)

:-)

