
No office, no boss, no boundaries – rise of the nomadic rich - chriscampbell
http://travel.cnn.com/new-nomads-814536
======
nlh
Anyone else have their "sketchy" filters activated after reading this article?
Author mentions how he travels around the world and how he's meeting up with
friends / colleagues at this conference (and that he knows them from email
lists / online forums), but there's no talk whatsoever in the article about
what businesses any of them run.

That's usually a red flag to me -- feels like the scummy side of the Internet.

Doesn't take away from the point (mostly) - that the Internet is enabling a
new type of remote-working lifestyle - but I can't get over my spidey senses
tingling about the underlying...

~~~
michaelochurch
I think there's an exponential return on efforts for a lot of this work. Most
people can't take away enough time from their day job and responsibilities to
get good at it, but people who do and take an investment mentality (investing
their surplus time back into their skills and contacts) can take off.

For example, if I spent 6 months on an app, I doubt it would pay rent, because
there's a lot I'd have to learn and it would probably (?) be amateurish. On
the other hand, if I cut out 18 months and kept iterating, I'm sure I'd do
better, financially, than I'm doing at my day job.

I haven't won this game yet (I have a fairly typical day job for a top-5%
programmer of my age) but it seems like the trick is to find an avenue where
you can rapidly get better, invest heavily in yourself when you find it, and
eventually be independent.

~~~
lucaspiller
> On the other hand, if I cut out 18 months and kept iterating, I'm sure I'd
> do better, financially, than I'm doing at my day job.

This is exactly it. At his last job, my (now) boss started a project on the
side. Eventually he had to quit, not because he was making lots of money, but
because he didn't have enough time to support the side project. It was
bringing in money at this point, but not enough to match his previous salary.
He kept at it though, and eventually the revenue grew. Twelve months later,
there are 15 of us and money in the bank :)

~~~
michaelochurch
May I ask what this project was? How did he know it was worth it to leave his
current job?

It seems to me that the scary part isn't the month or few without income, but
the risk that you can't get back into your old gig (or something comparable).
That's a very small risk of course, because developers are in high demand, but
enough to give pause.

One month to try something cool is a small cost, but quitting your job usually
means you can't go back in the same standing.

~~~
tomjen3
If you really can't get a job anywhere as a good developer, or as a
freelancer, you probably should check what you are doing wrong.

You aren't likely to go back to your previous job, but even a failed startup
should qualify you for a better job.

If you have the oppertunity, go for it. You regret the things you didn't do
more than the things you did do.

~~~
michaelochurch
What you say is all true, but there's one thing that probably hasn't hit most
HN readers yet: the job-hopping stigma. It sucks that it exists, but it can
catch up with people after a certain point.

Yes, good programmers can generally get better jobs quickly, but there is a
point some people get to where the "job hopper" image starts to hurt them.
Most people, if they see a string of 6-month jobs, assume this person is
constantly getting fired.

~~~
tmflannery
I don't think employeers worry these people got fired. I think companies are
concerned whether you're just a hired gun (not that there's anything wrong
with that). But if I'm a young company and I want someone to come on board,
I'm not making the decision lightly. I want a long-term partner. So yes, a lot
of short term employment would be concerning.

~~~
michaelochurch
At 6 months, literally "fired" is unlikely because most companies don't act
fast enough. But the assumption people make based on a lot of short job
tenures is that the person was unsuccessful at all of them. Most unsuccessful
people don't stick around long enough to get fired, but that's irrelevant.

It's somewhat self-reinforcing, I'd imagine. Because of the stigma, people are
less inclined to leave jobs, and therefore a higher percentage of departures
are negative.

There's also a "can't win" dynamic from short job tenures. If you're obviously
moving up, you're a mercenary. If you have a lot of lateral moves, you're
unsuccessful.

Additionally, I think _few_ people actually want to be job hoppers. I'd love
to find a 10-year fit. On the other hand, it's uncommon that a I find an
environment where I keep learning for long enough to justify more than a year
or two.

------
gyardley
Yes, working for yourself over the Internet can bring you financial security
and scads of free time, which will let you avoid conventional life
indefinitely. There's no need to take on the responsibilities that come with
marriage, children, and community, which admittedly can be a huge drag.
However, there's also a lot of deep pleasure in that conventional, normal
life, pleasure the nomadic traveller is forgoing - wandering around the world
indefinitely comes with an opportunity cost.

If this was just a temporary choice of one thing over the other, I'd say 'go
for it, and enjoy yourself', but I wonder if this sort of lifestyle, done long
enough, can really be put down. By the time you want a spouse, a family, and a
place to put down roots, will the temperamental changes brought on by your
nomadic living even make this possible? The guy at the end of the article
who's lonely and wants a home - he might want it, but I'm not at all sure
he'll be able to get it or keep it.

Perhaps I'm completely full of it. It certainly wouldn't be the first time.
But I'm sure I'm not the only one who knows a long-term womanizer who can't
manage to settle down, even though he now claims to want to. These guys might
be setting themselves up for the same sort of problem, with 'new experiences'
taking the mental place of 'new partner'.

~~~
Mvandenbergh
I know a few people who live like this but most of them are semi-nomadic
rather than totally rootless. They have a home city where they live for half
or so of each year, the ones who are richer / picked a low-cost city own or
rent a home there permanently, others pick up a new rental contract every time
they come back.

There's also people who aren't strictly speaking nomadic but do take long
(multi-month) trips and work from there.

The only quibble I have with this article is the use of the word "rich". No-
one I know with this life-style is really rich, they have good upper-middle
class incomes doing jobs that are easily done remotely and they leverage that
to live in a way that other people cannot.

I think that as these guys get older most will start to move from nomadic to
semi-nomadic to "takes long working vacations", but some may indeed live like
this forever.

------
BobWarfield
Aside from the bit about loneliness, which I regard as his personal problem,
this is the lifestyle I aim for. I don't want to be on the road constantly,
but my life and I love travel. I'm early on the path (see:
[http://smoothspan.wordpress.com/2013/01/06/a-solo-
bootstrapp...](http://smoothspan.wordpress.com/2013/01/06/a-solo-
bootstrapping-odyssey-2012-was-the-year-i-quit-my-day-job/)), but it's totally
doable. With a laptop and an Internet connection, I've run my business from an
Alaskan Cruise Ship Cabin, a Cozumel Mexico dive trip, and a recent trip to
Waikiki. Met one of my co-conspirators in Waikiki for dinner.

It's good stuff.

The flip side is I work 24x7. When I'm on a push to get a product out, I've
been known to forget what day it is. And I have had to limit myself to doing
all my marketing work after 7pm. I do customer service from about 8am-9:30am.
So that's a lot of hours in a week.

Wait. How's that different from a startup where I own only a small equity
stake instead of 100%?

Hmmmm....

------
sdoering
>> "For the first time in three years of non-stop travel, I wish for a home."

Something I had to learn myself. Something, I did learn and it centered me,
gave me context and a lot more happiness.

So I am happy for everybody living that way. If it does please them and does
not hurt anyone else. But I know for me, that this is not my style of life.

~~~
stevenbrianhall
Yep, same here. I'm currently sitting in a University library in Germany,
working on some projects for my clients. I have an apartment in Texas, but
haven't hardly seen it in three months.

I'm so, so thankful for the experiences in travel that this lifestyle has
afforded over the last three years. I also think that in some ways, being
constantly on the move has made me a better worker, but it's time for a
change. I start a full-time sit-down-in-an-office position in February, which
I chose to do for exactly the reasons that the article outlines. I echo the
parent comment - it's a cool lifestyle that you should try if you can, but
it's not for me any longer.

------
ilamont
A few years ago, I was emailed by a firm that billed itself as being located
in London but the IP address was in the Philippines. The correspondence
indicated that it was a native English speaker on the other end of the
conversation. They had some interest in one of my blogs. Through discussion
(always email, the London phone number went to voicemail) I determined that
they wanted to add link-filled pages to my blog in return for $125.

I suspect many nomads are following similar SEO consultant/"passive income"
schemes, but I also know from previous HN threads that there are a fair number
of members (many of whom I assume are programmers) living an expat life
overseas:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1752868>

------
sputknick
I would like to take my skills on the road, but I have a wife and two kids. My
wife does not work. Is this lifestyle practical for me? Any advice would be
appreciated.

~~~
Spooky23
No. This lifestyle is basically a scheme to trick yourself into believing that
you're still living the youthful college dream.

Do you want your kids to grow up in hotels and short-term rentals, never
having been in one place for too long? If the answer is "sure", talk to people
who grew up in military families who were shipped all over the world -- it's
not fun.

If the idea is that you're going to travel, and the family stays put,
understand that the cost is that you won't have a family at some point. Road-
warrior consultants generally aren't the happiest people.

~~~
alexkus
> Road-warrior consultants generally aren't the happiest people.

So true, I did similar kind of "on-the-road" consultancy for a 9 month period
in a previous role and that was enough. Saved a load of money though as I had
no accommodation expenses of my own in those 9 months.

------
pinaceae
oh well, look at the core of his site: <http://postmasculine.com/10-best-ways-
to-make-money-online>

awesome.

------
josscrowcroft
Really not a very good article. The title suggests it's going to be a glowing
appraisal of a new set of people. All it really accomplishes is describing a
particularly sad-sounding circle-jerk "conference" for people who write about
writing about lifestyle, etc., and otherwise (I presume) contribute very
little..

------
malachismith
Lifestylists. (Not people doing businesses around users' and customers'
lifestyles, but people doing businesses FOR their own lifestyle). Also known
as dilettantes.

------
petercooper
How does this work with visas, etc? Maybe Asian countries are less strict but
in the US and EU you'd need to jump through many hoops or lie to immigration
officials about intent.

~~~
nanidin
In my experience, most countries want you to have a working visa when you
intend to do a job that someone else in that country could be doing.
Immigration law/policy hasn't really caught up with the Information Age in
this respect... But as long as you aren't in a country working for clients in
that same country, the country isn't going to care.

I guess it's similar to how visas work for writers. There are artist visas for
writers, but they seem to exist so the artist can stay longer.

~~~
petercooper
The test of your first paragraph is if the visitor says that when questioned
on entry. It seems some countries don't care but if you said to a US
immigration officer that you were planning to work in any form while in the
country, you'd be on the first plane back without a visa, alas.

------
sushimako
TL;DR Life as a nomadic-broke founder is fun and possible if you want to and
will reward you with life-changing experiences.

I personally find the topic interesting for various reasons. For once, because
i've been living a "nomadic-founder" lifestyle for the last 17months
(sidenote: rather "nomadic broke" than "nomadic rich" :) and because my
startup creates a platform that tries to free more people from classic
employment and enables them a global "workdesk".

My whole journey was inspired by someone's travelling-story on reddit, which
is why i'd like to share mine here. Maybe someone thinks about doing something
similar, in which case i hope my story can give insights/inspiration as well.

I'm in my mid-20s, IT-guy for >14years, YC alumni, don't have kids, speak 2
languages (english & german) and in the process of learning spanish (thank you
duolingo!). When i started, i moved out of my apartment, gave away all my
belongings but a backpack of clothes, my camera and thinkpad. I had only
little money on the side and apart from my role as a startup founder, not
really any perspective on regular income in the near future. Never had plans
for more than 1 month ahead, sometimes plans would completely change in
matters of hours. I was expecting to be living very low profile and in case
money runs out completely, find some simple job to get by. Money and
materialistic belongings became my lowest priority pretty soon. On the upside
you gain a completely new sense of freedom. (A particular quote from "Fight
Club" immediately comes to mind)

So moneywise, in the first few months i was still employed and working
remotely for a befriended company as a programmer. But that ended soon,
because i wanted to focus more on the startup. One of my co-foundes had some
funds from his former startup with which he could support the team for some
time. Not overly much, but enough to get by without much luxury. Earlier that
year i got the opportunity to build a funded art-installation[0] that won a
price and some money. But to be honest: I'm constantly broke, but somehow
there's always a way if you want to.

You'll learn to enjoy your life with the little you have. You get creative
eating healthy for little money (have never eaten so much good fruit in my
life) and finding places to stay. Mostly i stayed in hostels or i could live
with people i met on my journey. Sometimes only due to their hospitality,
sometimes in exchange for work (small IT stuff, built a hostel, crafted a
"designer locker", gardening and so on). When you stay in inexpensive hostels
(my only requirement was wifi), you'll also meet interesting people that are
in a similar situation and learn new ways to get by.

For the last 6 months i've been in south america. Life here is comfortably
cheap. Most of the time you can easily get by with 10$ a day or even less. And
if you're schedule is flexible and you're not in a hurry it's easy to
experience some of south-america's incredible nature for little or no money.
And you will meet interesting people and life-changing moments travelling
outside the usual touristic way of moving around these countries.

What i'm trying to say: If you feel your situation is similar and you maybe
even have some money on the side for the beginning: do it. You will not regret
it. Don't be scared and never give up. Just always remember that, even if hard
times come, there's always a way and surviving those will only make you
stronger. You'll find a simple way making money on the side for food & shelter
(heck, here in south america you could just be making and selling bread or
cake on the street for some hours a day and get by).

Needing only your laptop and wifi to work is an incredibly enabling gift.
Pretty much everywhere i went i had access to wifi and could work on my
startup and communicate with my co-founders. Take use of that gift and you
will have a life-changing experience. Founding a startup in such a globalized
way _is_ possible with some coordination skills. Our whole team is spread
around the world for the whole time being and we successfully launched a
couple of months ago.

Shameless plug: We[1] are building a plattform that enables many many more
people to live a location-independent lifestyle like ours. Our vision is that
you'll be able to work directly on our site, offer your expertise and/or being
presented with jobs directly targeted at what you're good at, always knowing
how much money a finished job will make you. We're still in the process of
collecting feedback and iterating. Getting a two-sided marketplace off the
ground is hard :)

If you have any questions about the story or feedback on our startup, i'd be
happy to answer them here or contact us at hello@workio.com

[0] <http://www.ffaloox.com/wiremap-principle/>

[1] <https://www.work.io>

~~~
ok_craig
> What i'm trying to say: If you feel your situation is similar and you maybe
> even have some money on the side for the beginning: do it. You will not
> regret it. Don't be scared and never give up.

I'm in a slightly different situation and wonder what advice you might have.

I'm not on the border of going broke. I work for myself from home, alone, and
have a comfortable income that I expect will continue for a while. Definitely
enough to travel with. So I'm not afraid of not having enough money.

But I am afraid of simply not knowing what to do. Typically when I take
vacations it's pre-planned, a week-long thing with a specific destination or
event, and then it's over.

A part of me really wants to go "nomadic" and travel lots of places, but I
just don't know what I'd do with myself. How to choose where to go to next,
how to get the most value out of where I'm at, etc. It seems like constantly
moving and trying to get something unique out of each place would take so much
consistent planning and work as to be a second job, sucking attention away
from where I'm at so I can plan where I'll be.

I don't work with anyone else (even remotely) and I don't have friends
scattered across the country/planet. It's extremely unlikely that I would be
receiving random calls from people I know, deviating me from my path and
pulling me into unexpected interesting places or scenarios.

So my fear is that I'd end up wandering aimlessly, missing the good bits for
the obvious ones, not getting a whole lot out of it, and wondering what I'm
doing. Is this a legitimate fear? Is there a way to prevent this?

~~~
douglascalhoun
My 2c from personal experience:

    
    
      1) Pick a place. Let's say Paris.
      2) Go to hostelworld.com, sort by highest review, choose the first hostel in your price range, book a week stay.
      3) Sit at a large table in the common room, nurse a beer or coffee, work on your laptop, wait for others to wander by.
      4) Strike up conversation, ask about where they've been, what they've done, and what they recommend.
    

I traveled for 3 months in SE Asia in this way. Everybody is in the same frame
of mind as you, ready to meet new people, share stories.

It really is that simple.

------
kristianc
Seems very similar to Fjord's 'Digital Nomads' report, released in March
2011...

[http://www.fjordnet.com/sites/default/files/FjordDigitalNoma...](http://www.fjordnet.com/sites/default/files/FjordDigitalNomads-201103.pdf)

------
ryguytilidie
Whenever I read articles like this I just read it as these people thinking
"Thank god I have rich parents, because lol at any actual human being living
in the real world doing this." Pretty much exactly how I felt watching the
Bravo startup show as well.

------
edwinyzh
If I don't have two kids and the wife (I'm glad I have) I can do that too,
although I'm not rich at all but I can afford the travel while working on my
software products.

------
michaelochurch
How does this work for people with families?

I'd really like to see someone turn a cruise ship into a moving, floating tech
city that would move about the world (possibly spending a week in each port,
allowing inland travel) so people can travel but also have a stable support
network. It'd even have a school for people with kids. It'd probably be
cheaper than living in New York or the Bay Area.

~~~
rdl
ResidenSea did this, but it was priced at a point where only the super rich
could afford it, and those people were so rich that they treated it as a part-
time vacation residence.

I've looked at this (from even the mid-1990s), and it's really hard to make
the economics work. Ships are expensive, both in capital costs and especially
in operations costs. You can buy used ships, but they're never very efficient
or suitable, and retrofitting them is expensive.

People who would be comfortable living out of a tiny cabin with limited
services are almost always better off just renting a place on land for a
period of time and flying in between destinations. It's only if you need a
large, constant space that it makes sense, and doing that with a ship is
expensive.

There's also a horrible scale problem -- you could maybe make this work on a
per-user cost with a $10b world's largest ship, but a $100mm ship is probably
10x less efficient, and a $1mm boat is another 10-50x less efficient.

There's also the loss of freedom with a large ship. I'd rather just make
enough to buy a $5-10mm boat of my own (or, ideally, $100-200mm), and have
some guests sometimes, vs. try to coordinate when people get on or off or
where it goes as a collective.

There's the regular cruise ship industry on the low end as competition, too.
You can get deals and just book 90 days on cruise ships if you want, and get
the scale advantages of a large ship; the downside is boredom and being around
a bunch of old people (usually) or sometimes drunk college students. Block-
booking (how most "gay cruises" or other special interests are done) works.
Geekcruises did some of this.

What might make sense is a bunch of ships going on a specific route, with
transferability across them, or big fixed platforms at sea where people can go
to/from by air, boats, or bigger ships. Of course, now you're looking at many
billions of dollars in capital and a very large minimum scale; it's really
hard to be incremental in this market.

------
vertr
This guy is yet ANOTHER self help guru sort: <http://postmasculine.com/>

~~~
pkorzeniewski
Just shows how big demand for such stuff there is, similar to "making money
from writing about making money from writing" ;)

