
Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case - molecule
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/7/6/germany-us-spy.html
======
perlgeek
As a German, I find the German reaction really pathetic.

No, don't ask somebody for assistance who has just proven (again) that you
can't trust him on that level.

Do your own investigations, and find out who was involved. If any of the
involved people were US diplomats, expel them from the country (and escalate
to the UN? dunno if that's done). If not, go the normal route through the
justice system.

On a political level, decouple German intelligence agencies stronger from the
US ones, and drive out as much US intelligence as possible.

~~~
terranstyler
The reason they don't do it, in spite of nearly everyone [1] distrusting the
US gov't, makes me wonder what kind of leverage the US secret services have.

It also lends some credence to the "Germany was never really souvereign"
theory.

[1] Just check the comment sections in the major German newspapers.

~~~
bayesianhorse
Non-Souvereignty is largely regarded as a wild conspiracy theory. And really,
what kind of evidence is there?

Inevitably, signs of "foreign control" turns out to be some form of
competition, cooperation, trade or just plain common interests.

What counts more is that Germans are allowed to say anything they want, there
is no evidence of tampering in elections, the press is free and extensive, and
people can largely do as they please. Nothing is ever perfect, but claiming US
sovereignty over Germay is just plain stupid.

~~~
igl
It is not plain stupid. It's actually a good opportunity to figure out what
the Grundgesetzbuch is (yes, it is actually not a valid 'constitution') Even
Scheuble said the sovereignty issues went into 'ad absurdum' since ww2. There
is contract after contract after contract. Germany is in so much need of a
rewrite of its law books. Everything is corrected by extensions and special
rule. The amount of paperwork germans produce is INSANE and should easily push
someone to think "Wait there is something f'ed here".

\- Say anything they want: Unless you mention the H with the J's... and
_cough_ Horst Köhler _cough_

\- No evidence of tampering in elections: mmmmmmh there are always issues in
the east and there is always something coming up in small districts or states.
They are not major but important nonetheless (Read: Local press)

\- The press is free and extensive: LOL!!!!!!!!! Axel Springer and Spiegel
dictate the opinion here, everyone else is a jew-baby-eating holocost denier.

\- people can largely do as they please: yes, if they can afford a lawyer to
help them with the paperwork.

Not getting into this stuff and just accepting everything would be plain
stupid.

------
ThePhysicist
Well, it was well known in government circles (and beyond) that the US are
spying on everyone including their allies, so the fact that they paid a mole
in the German secret service shouldn't have been too surprising to the German
government.

The fact that he got uncovered and that the whole affair got public is a
serious problem for Angela Merkel though: The German public already perceived
her as way too soft towards the US during the latest NSA affair, so if she
doesn't act this time she will lose a lot of goodwill in the German
population. Judging from her recent media appearances, it seems actually
likely that she will act in one way or another.

A probable "retaliation" could be to cancel the free trade treaty that's
currently being negotiated between the US and the EU (and which, like most EU
projects, depends heavily on Germany's consent), which would be a huge
economic loss for the US (and to th EU as well of course). So, although this
move was "business as usual" for the US, it could have pretty serious
consequences for them. Makes me really wonder if the return-on-investment of
the current US surveillance strategy is actually positive, or if it will
result in a huge loss of economic power and trust for them.

~~~
mschuster91
> which would be a huge economic loss for the US

LOL, I hope you're not being serious. The only ones TTIP and friends are going
to benefit is Big Capital and American producers of chlorine-treated chicken.
No thanks, it's enough you fuck up your own country, no need to fuck up Europe
too.

~~~
ThePhysicist
Well, according to the E.U. the treaty could generate 100 BN € in revenue and
more than 1 million jobs both in US and EU, so even if those numbers should be
off by a factor of two it's still pretty big...

[http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-
focus/ttip/](http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/ttip/)

~~~
mschuster91
Sorry, but I rather lose a million jobs than exposing my country to lawsuits
because a democratic decision interfered with the business of some big
company.

------
dan_bk
Or it's just another political statement to gain/retain voter support, while
everything (US-german collaboration regarding mass surveillance) will go on as
before.

Seriously, if Germany wants to make a statement, it can start by banning all
NSA listening stations on German soil.

~~~
MrBuddyCasino
But then where would we get most of our sigint from, if not from the NSA? Its
not like we have those capabilities ourselves. But I agree that Germany is
starting to look a little.... foolish, but there is no easy way out for us. We
need the USA more than they need us.

~~~
Svip
Apparently, most of the data NSA collects is useless. And even _with_ that
data, other intelligence agencies (read: other countries') are often better
informed than the Americans.

Having the most amount of data is not the same has having the best
intelligence agency. How can data be useful if you don't know what it's for?

German intelligence is likely more sophisticated than American
intelligence.[0] Of course, as with most European intelligence agencies, they
do have several centuries of advantage. It took CIA quite a while to figure
out not see world politics in a pure East vs West picture. You cannot build
that amount of experience overnight.

Do you think the KGB outmanoeuvred the CIA at every turn because of a bigger
budget or lack of restrictions? Nay, KGB relied heavily on 600 years of
espionage experience. Experience that used to mean the life or death of
several European states.

Europe may have granted their former colonies independence, but the experience
gathered in our years as masters have not been for naught. It is not without
reason France knows central Africa like its backhand.

USA may have more data, because they have the technical knowhow and
capability. But they still lack the experience. The relationships between
European and American intelligence agencies are certainly mutually beneficial.

CIA's best kept secret is how little they know.

[0] Of course, there will often be the occasional embarrassing story that
would dispute this claim. But don't let these few stories fool you.

~~~
iSnow
>German intelligence is likely more sophisticated than American intelligence.

Doubtful. German intelligence is probably as effective as Wally from Dilbert.
However, shelving TTIP and/or expelling the US ambassador would make a
statement.

And of course - in the long run - not sitting on our asses but building and
effective intelligence service ourselves.

~~~
Svip
As Tomte points out, this is largely a guessing game we are playing. How can
we _really_ know one way or the other?

But I concede, German intelligence is likely the weaker link in European
intelligence agencies (and weaker than American as well), not from lack of
skill or knowhow, but a political inability to pursue it. Germany's recent
history has left Germans rather on the unfavourable side of intelligence
agencies and surveillance. I would even imagine the Allies imposing
restrictions on the Germans following the Second World War.

~~~
arethuza
One odd thing about German intelligence - they have their own set of Russian
launched synthetic aperture radar spy satellites:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAR-Lupe](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAR-Lupe)

Germany has the synthetic aperture radar birds and France runs optical
satellites.

I'd love to know who they spend most time watching.

------
r0h1n
I'd say Germany is merely posturing with the US in order to win a seat on the
"Five Eyes" spying alliance.

Angela Merkel eyes place for Germany in US intelligence club -
[http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/e2492a3a-3d7a-11e3-9928-00144...](http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/e2492a3a-3d7a-11e3-9928-00144feab7de.html?siteedition=intl)

US lawmakers push for German entrance to Five Eyes spy alliance -
[http://www.dw.de/us-lawmakers-push-for-german-entrance-to-
fi...](http://www.dw.de/us-lawmakers-push-for-german-entrance-to-five-eyes-
spy-alliance/a-17246049)

~~~
higherpurpose
I'd say Merkel is definitely on US's side, probably even in this case.
Hopefully, the German people and government as a whole, aren't.

------
susi22
Merkel doesn't care that much and she --even though I hate to say it-- is
right that we shouldn't. This spying case isn't a big deal. It doesn't hurt
Germany. Also the spying on her phone last year. She didn't really care all
that much. After all, USA is the biggest partner of the EU/Germany. Germany
can't afford a dent in the relationship with the US. It's the US who's
providing security to most of the western world. Who's supposed to protect us
from Putin? The NATO?

The biggest fear for Merkel is twofold:

\- Industry espionage. This would attack Germany at what they're best at and
be huge problem. USA has been lucky to not be caught about that (in Germany).

\- The much bigger problem for Merkel is however the growing Anti-Americanism
in Germany. There has always been a good amount of it. But mostly, Germans see
the US as a partner. There is in huge decline and it's a growing problem.
Germans are much more serious about their privacy than Americans and the
spying scandal didn't help America. Merkel also knows that she has to listen
much more to the German public than for instance Obama has to listen to
Americans. Germany has a very well functioning Democracy and any pressure from
the public will quickly result in resignations or losing the next election.
Germany has done this before: Kohl's affair got his party out. The FDP got
thrown out of the parliament last year. You can quickly go from 40% to under
20% in Germany. Due to the many US scandals in the last 2 years, Germans see
America very very skeptic these days. Der Spiegel yesterday's issue has some
numbers: Who should Germany work together with? USA: 56%. Russia: 53%.

If you read many of the forums in Germany you'll see the growing
dissatisfaction with the US as a partner. And more and more understanding for
Putin these days.

My point of this post is: What this means it that if USA continues to bully
the German people, then Merkel will be forced to take action and do something
that she doesn't actually want to. She knows very well that America is
extremely important and without a good relationship things will get much
tougher in Europe/Germany. After all Germany is benefiting from the huge
security the US provides to us. But Germans don't think that far ahead and
only see the bully in America these days. I hope it doesn't get this far that
Merkel is forced (by the German people/media) into getting distance from
America since it would hurt both, Germany and the US. I'm very certain that
Obama know that Merkel will always be his friend. But I'm not so sure if he
realizes that the German people can make Merkel do something that she
otherwise wouldn't do.

America: Watch out how far you take the bullying. It might just happen that
the next generation of Westerners will end up hating you in 10-20 years down
the road. And then, you will have no friends left but only enemies. What Obama
and America's government does can be very dangerous for America in the future.

~~~
fit2rule
>After all, USA is the biggest partner of the EU/Germany.

The US is not just Germanys' biggest partner - it controls Germanys'
sovereignty. The German intelligence services are all run from Washington.
When Merkel says 'it does not matter', its because its really not relevant
that America is spying on Germany: its allowed to. Germany lost WW2, and has
not had a restoration of the sovereignty of its intelligence services in its
constitution. That part is still held by the occupying power.

~~~
eru
Didn't the 4+2 treaties restore full sovereignty?

~~~
tobiasu
On paper. But the 2+4 treaty is mostly Soviets leave, NATO stays and expands.

~~~
arrrg
So what you are actually saying is, yes, Germany has full sovereignty.

Please don’t spread this bullshit. There is (mostly) mutually beneficial
strong cooperation with a power-differential. That’s all. Stop spinning your
dumb conspiracy theories.

~~~
fit2rule
Germany does _not_ have full sovereignty and won't, ever, until a Peace Treaty
is signed and ratified. America won't allow that to happen because then it'd
have to pull out all of its troops - and in case you didn't know, Germany is
full of American troops and other military-industrial resources.

Germany is, at most, a puppet state - a model for what America had hoped to
pull off in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and so on ..

~~~
tobiasu
My question is: If Germany is still occupied, what is it that it can not do?

~~~
mschuster91
Stand up to the shit the NSA is doing. Eject those fucking bastards who
operate the NSA listening posts in Germany.

Seriously, everyone who works for the NSA has lost all my respect. You're
undermining civil rights for everyone including yourself.

~~~
arrrg
You do understand the difference between power differentials combined with
different priorities and coercion by force?

------
tiatia
Merkel may possibly know a lot about spying. Who would have thought?

Did Merkel work for the Stasi?
[http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-317907](http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-317907)

The past of the current German president may not look much better (IM Larve)

Anyway, should anything of this be true, the top German leader may be
tremendously vulnerable for blackmailing.

------
bayesianhorse
The incompetency involved in this case almost rules out CIA involvement. Let's
reserve judgement until more details are known.

------
rollo
As a German I don't see this as an issue. Some German politicians have deep
connections to enemy states, so why wouldn't the NSA spy on them? It's in our
best interest even, because those politicans are a danger to Europe and
Germany itself. You can also see the problem with Germany and France not
behaving as allies of the USA in the war against Russia.

~~~
bildung
_As a German I don 't see this as an issue. Some German politicians have deep
connections to enemy states, so why wouldn't the NSA spy on them? It's in our
best interest even, because those politicans are a danger to Europe and
Germany itself._

As a German I very much see that as an issue. If there indeed are polititions
having "deep connections to enemy states" (who do you mean?), I want the
democratic process to handle that, not the intelligance agency of another
state. What do we need a parliament for, anyway, if you think a practically
unregulated third party is the right way to handle domestic discourse?

~~~
rollo
We need it because Germany has shown it is unable to do the right thing or
even act in its own interest without external help.

------
sidcool
The conspiracy theorist in me tells me that this might be a staged drama by
US-German authorities to instill confidence in German citizens. Or may be to
deceive Russia.

~~~
qgi
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

~~~
sidcool
Well stated, who coined this one?

~~~
qgi
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor)

