
 Toxic workplace, what do I do? - fingerDevnull
http://pastebin.com/0cUnah3Q
======
incision
_> This is a not for profit organization that is strictly mandated by
government procedures. It has a large budget. It has been around several
decades. It serves tens of thousands users a year and enjoys monopoly on the
services it's users require._

I'm familiar with that situation.

Two things:

1.) You're in no danger, there's likely no accountability at any level and you
don't have to be in a hurry to quit. As a relative newcomer, what you see as a
death spiral is likely status quo for the organization - it's a zombie.

2.) You never had a chance at effecting any real change, so don't feel guilty
about bailing.

~~~
chmike
It might be a black spot in his career. It will be difficult to explain what
went wrong while staying positive. Beside, this can strongly affect his moral.
A back flip, if possible is in my opinion the right move: get the hell out of
this.

~~~
throwaway1979
If I was hiring him and he just said "wasn't a good fit" and didn't say
anything bad about the organization, I'd be happy with that answer.

Bad mouthing former employers in an interview is totally not cool in my books.

~~~
Nursie
Even if they were disorganised, behind the times and afraid of source control?

Sometimes companies are just damn awful.

~~~
donw
Never, ever, ever bad-mouth a previous employer during an interview.

Ever.

Even if you worked for Satan himself, and he had Kafka and Joseph Heller
design the Waterfall development process, and your team lead had the IQ of a
telephone pole and the personality of a Comcast customer service rep.

You can say you weren't a good fit. That you felt the toolchain hurt developer
productivity. Talk about how you want to be part of an organization that will
let you hit your maximum level of achievement. Talk about how you hate
bureaucracy because it puts barriers between you and the work that needs
doing.

That's all fine. Show me, the interviewer, how driven you are to create.

But the second you start talking about how miserable you were, or how much of
an asshole you thought your boss was, or about how much of an idiot your team
lead was, you've basically cost yourself the job.

You might be completely right, but if you start talking about this during an
interview, you come across as an antisocial, whiny, needy child. If these
problems were so upsetting, why did you stay so long? Why didn't you try to
fix things?

I want people in my company that will actively fix problems, not just complain
about them.

I, the interviewer, can't change anything about your last job, and complaining
to me about it doesn't help either of us. I'm going to wonder how you'll be to
work with if you can't put the past behind you. I'm also going to wonder what
you'll say about me, and the team, when you leave. Will you paint us in the
same light as the job from hell?

If you whine about how much you hated your last job, all you do is turn on
every red flag I have regarding personal interaction.

~~~
Nursie
Who's talking about whining or getting personal?

If the company was badly organised, behind the times and resistant to change,
I don't think there's anything much wrong with saying it. IMHO.

~~~
potatolicious
The interviewer doesn't know if your claims are true.

There are lots of people in the world who are impossible to satisfy, who blame
all failure on everyone but themselves. They have complaints about everything,
justified or otherwise.

By bringing these things up, a person who does not otherwise know you has two
possibilities:

\- The company you worked for really _was_ that bad. This claim cannot be
verified in a meaningful way.

\- The candidate you're interviewing is one of these dreaded negative nancies
who will disrupt your workplace as they proceed to complain about everything
and redirect their own problems upon other people.

Since there is no way to tell which is true, and I have no incentive to trust
you, and every disincentive to bring in someone like that into my office, I
will not hire you.

Direct, concrete criticism is fine. "We used the waterfall model and I don't
believe it works" - but _do not_ come off as bitter, because that's exactly
what the Negative Nancy typically sounds like.

~~~
georgebonnr
True. Delving into any negativity in an interview answer exposes you to this
evaluation.

------
ChuckMcM
Just think about it this way, you are never going to get the days and weeks
and months and potentially years you put in here back. If you don't spend them
on something useful you will forever see this as a problem.

So since the place is clearly clueless, you need to decide what your going to
do. When you talk to people about this place in the future, they are going to
ask you "why you stayed" and your answer is going to reflect on your character
and your outlook.

You can try various strategies to fix things, some might help, some might not.
But you can practice you skill in identifying roadblocks.

You can switch into anthropologist mode and start studying the people who are
dysfunctional. Find how how complete idiots maintain a lock on their power
base, what techniques do they use if it is clearly not skill in their job.

You can practice organizational dynamics, try to figure out who the 'players'
are and who the 'pawns' are. It's a sort of morbid curiosity and of course
once the players notice you are looking at them you will have to be on your
toes and bob and weave lest they corner you on the board. (You don't want to
end up fired with everyone in the organization thinking you're the reason the
world is screwed up, and a good player will try to make that happen to protect
their turf)

I wish there was a way to quit and on the way out mark the entrance with
ultraviolet sensitive ink or something so that others could know what goes on
there and stay away.

Since you are asking these questions though, you are in good shape.

~~~
arohner
> Find how how complete idiots maintain a lock on their power base, what
> techniques do they use if it is clearly not skill in their job.

While this is extremely interesting, it's not something that can be learned in
a reasonable timeframe, and may never be learned if you don't have the right
approach or luck into the relevant facts.

For example, one company I know of, the CEO was in charge for 8 years, while
the company constantly lost money. They struggled to come up with new
products, flailing around. They only stayed afloat through patent lawsuits,
without which they would have been long out of business. During this entire
time, the CEO made mid-six figure salary. I use to remark, "If I understood
why that company was still in business, I'd be rich".

Why did the CEO stay in charge? The answer is very boring. 2 of the 3 board
members had already checked out, writing off the entire investment, and the
third was personal friends with the CEO.

The answer is not always interesting, and there's not always as much to learn
as you'd hope.

------
bertil
There is too big a need for talented developers for you to stay there. Call a
head-hunter.

I’ve been in such clusterfucks, probably a dozen times (that's a _very_ large
number no matter how long your career is) and, as much as I need to tell me
that, I never really learned from staying. All I learnt from trying to point
out how brocken the situation was (the three first times) was that people do
not like to be pointed out their mistakes, and some might actually commit
suicide for that. The fourth time, my desk-mate wrote a book on how bad the
situation was; the book was really good, actually, in a lucidly desperate and
unwillingly helpful way. It ended up selling a dozen million copies (US Ed.:
ISBN 0-375-42373-7.) After that, I’ve learnt more than I want to, and more
than I can actually use about too-big-to-fail, harrasment, corporate fraud and
covering one’s ass. The only useful tidbit: I’m not happy in larger
organisations (something anyone who met me for ten minutes can figure out).

Chiph is right: you will learn something, and be able to avoid patterns, but
that's actually not very useful: you can tell a mess without experienced it
before (you just did) and two messes never really look alike. Staying would
just make a part of your CV uncomfortable (mine is a minefield); one is
probably easy to avoid or explain, and a great source of jokes for dinner-
parties.

I make very funny presentations listing fuck-ups; none of them has ever
actually helped anyone around me to not find a creative way to get something
deeply wrong.

~~~
jpatokal
The original of the book in question:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonjour_paresse> (roughly "Hello laziness")

The company was French electricity monopoly EDF, and their reaction to the
book was instrumental in propelling it to success. Its creator is now widely
known as the French version of Scott "Dilbert" Adams.

~~~
FatalBaboon
Wow, just wow. I am working there at the moment, and it's even worse than you
may think. I've been there as a consultant for almost 2 months now, and I
still don't have my computer. As a developer. I've been told it's normal, and
nobody seems to be alarmed.

But that's not the worst thing. People actually enjoy it, if you listen to
some, they found the perfect "job"! But it's crushing me, I'm a very
passionate developer, and I miss coding. I'm done working for big french
companies, I started looking for greener pastures a week ago, and I'll
probably quit my consultancy firm next week.

~~~
Yoric
We're hiring :)

(we = Mozilla Paris)

------
vessenes
You can't ignore the psychic impact of working on a project going nowhere, or
down the toilet. As noted here, I don't think your own job seems in danger,
but if you are not working on stuff that juices you up, and is going well, it
will have a medium to long term impact on you.

Hiring managers can tell that you've been working on boring, soul-crushing
stuff. This sense is almost indistinguishable from the sense that you are a
bored individual; hiring managers won't bother to figure out what's what.

It can take a couple of years to get your 'mojo' back if you have been in the
wrong situation -- I would urge you to act wisely, and move before you lose
it. You'll be glad.

~~~
jdminhbg
I agree strongly with this. I worked as a consultant on a zombie project where
the out-of-his-depth PM held a 2-3 hour phone call every morning with a team
of 15 as his way of moving development along. Needless to say, that didn't
work. I was billing a pretty great rate for myself at the time, and for a
while sort of enjoyed just reading HN or a book on someone else's dime every
morning, but eventually I realized it was sapping my will to do good work of
any kind -- either paid or for myself. I found a good stopping point and left.

------
ohwp
In the Netherlands we have this TV show called: "help! my husband is a
handyman". It is about families living in a mess that should have been a
palace. But the handyman had so much jobs to do he just could make up his mind
were to begin.

I think this also applies to problematic projects like this toxic one. The
mess seems too big to clean up. But it isn't. You just have to start somewhere
and clean up little by little.

In the past I had to implement a feature in a toxic software project. While
implementing the feature I also refactored some messy code and even deleted
some functionality nobody every used (thousands of lines). By doing this I
broke some parts on purpose and added some functionality to fix what was
broken. Now others who were also working on the project had to deal with the
stuff I broke. Ofcourse nobody liked it, but when they knew I provided better
functionality to fix the problems everybody was happy because they knew this
had to be done.

Broken gets fixed, shitty lasts forever. That's why sometimes you need to
break shitty things on purpose.

------
omnisci
"Toxic workplace, what do I do?" quit. F' that noise. It isn't worth the
frustration. I did the same thing about a year ago, working for federally
funded science. The worst decisions on earth were made, money was wasted AND
they complained about budget cuts. It got to the point that someone was like,
"you look miserable?" and I was. Toxic is a perfect word, it was literally
eating away at me. I quit, had no job lined up, went on vacation while
emailing my contacts about jobs, came back with a job. Done and done. Being in
a toxic environment does nothing for you with the exception of teaching you
how NOT to do things. But, it seems clear the author of this post realizes
that, so your lesson is done. Quit. move on, don't look back. Simple as that.

------
encoderer
This sounds like the kind of place where one could put in his 40 hours and
bootstrap a project on the side. As long as you can sort of disconnect
yourself and avoid feeling overwhelmed, you could also put in just a solidly
competent performance and enjoy the steady pay.

If that doesn't interest you, then quit immediately for greener pastures. Even
if there's no risk to you, you only get one career, and staying there is
wasting time.

~~~
mindcrime
_This sounds like the kind of place where one could put in his 40 hours and
bootstrap a project on the side. As long as you can sort of disconnect
yourself and avoid feeling overwhelmed, you could also put in just a solidly
competent performance and enjoy the steady pay._

That's not a bad idea. I did basically that for almost 2 years while working
for on a trainwreck of a project managed by clueless PHBs. I just came in, did
the bare minimum I needed to do to stay employed, and reserved as much of my
mental, creative and emotional energy as possible for Fogbeam work after
hours. Hell, I'd probably still be there, except I got so bored and tired of
the B.S. that I started speaking my mind about things, and pissed off a lot of
the managers, and eventually got laid off.

In hindsight though, getting let go from that place was a blessing. You can do
that deal, but it takes a toll on you after a while, even if the job is
nominally "easy". There's a unique sort of mental stress that comes from
grinding through soul-sucking boring bullshit, tedious meetings, and inane
bullshit day after day after day after day...

The day I walked out, the sense of relief was virtually palpable.

So I guess I'd say "go this route, but don't let it stress you out too much.
Tolerate it as long as you can stay sane, then just bail, or force them to let
you go".

~~~
danbmil99
> There's a unique sort of mental stress that comes from grinding through
> soul-sucking boring bullshit, tedious meetings, and inane bullshit day after
> day after day after day...

So true.

~~~
hef19898
Absolutely, and also very hard for others to understand it unless they are in
the same situation.

------
kevinconroy
Although it adds color to the situation, not all non-profits are clueless
about technology. There are many that are run as well as (or better than!)
many tech startups.

If you're based in the Washington DC area, drop me a line. I'd love to connect
and help you find a better position. (I'm not a headhunter or recruiter - just
a non-profit developer who doesn't want to let one clueless NGO tarnish your
impression of all non-profit tech for life.)

------
einhverfr
First, what you describe is pretty typical in certain sectors. They have a
monopoly mandated by the government. They have no profit motive. You need to
start by stepping back and realizing what the incentives are.

This is to do just well enough to avoid the ire of the government regulators.
They don't need to earn customers. They don't need to offer quality services.
They just need to do just well enough to scrape by. This is exactly what they
are doing.

So the first thing you need to do is adjust your expectations and understand
that it is all a charade, and that that is what the real game is.

The second thing you need to do is take a look at yourself. Do you want to
work in such a place? If not start looking for another job now before the
environment poisons you. The real danger is that it can poison what you want
in your career if you want to effect change.

------
chiph
Will you learn more (career-wise) by staying and observing the fall &
aftermath, or by leaving now?

I would put forth that you'll learn more by this experience about how people
deal with failure and what happens afterwards than you would if you left. Will
there be shouting & tears? Probably. Will people get fired? Almost certainly.
Will you get fired? Chances are low, but not zero. Worst case scenario - you
get some severance money.

Given the track record of successes in the software industry (few/poor),
learning what not to repeat will probably take you further than anything you
could learn by swapping jobs and doing CRUD work. And if you get asked about
it, you say "I could have left, but I intentionally stayed on, as I felt that
this was something that I needed to experience so that I wouldn't repeat these
errors."

The important thing is to act strictly as an observer (do your work, but ..
observe what is going on around you), and not to engage in any schadenfreude
or gloating. The people that lost their jobs -- for the majority of them, what
happened was not their fault and they shouldn't be blamed or made fun of.

So build up some savings (you should have 6 months of fixed expenses saved up,
anyway), sit back, and enjoy the ride.

~~~
charlieflowers
I disagree, but respectfully so. You will learn a lot by staying, but as you
said, it truly is a toxic situation. You'd learn a lot by shoveling toxic
checmicals every day for 6 months too, but _that has semi-permanent effects on
you_ , and it's just not worth it.

I recommend you get the hell out, ASAP. Take your time enough to try your best
to pick a new landing spot that is not so dysfunctional (even then, there's no
guarantees, but give it a good shot).

Life is short. Pick a new spot that will be as enjoyable as possible on a
daily basis, while also carrying your career in the direction you want to go,
and GET THERE ASAP.

(And I say that from experience -- I've found myself in a few of these messes
myself).

~~~
derekp7
But if you're young enough, you may be able to quickly recover from this
situation. Better than if you ended up in a similar situation towards the
middle / end of your career. One thing that a similar situation in my early
twenties helps me with now, is no matter what, I can always say "At least it
isn't near as bad as that company". Or, I can properly assess my current
situation and know if it is getting just as bad / worse.

------
spiritplumber
Eat everyone.

Barring that, adhocratic takeover. Loudly proclaim "I AM TAKING OVER THIS
WING, IF YOU LOVE ME FOLLOW ME" and start treating the project as if it was
only you working on it. See what those who do follow you want to work on, and
split tasks according to mesh-management protocols.

This assumes that you care about the project getting done, if you don't, pull
a Wally and enjoy all the extra free time. :)

~~~
spiritplumber
By the way, I give this advice after having done this at least once. The
product was delivered slightly ahead of the revised schedule, after which the
team was disbanded because the higher-ups did not want to deal with the
surreal situation. I managed to get 1 out of 6 developers to follow me.

~~~
twic
Sorry, just to clarify - when you say "this advice", do you mean "eat
everyone", or the other thing?

~~~
spiritplumber
The other thing :) Much as I seriously considered treating my cow-orkers at
the time as valid sources of protein.

------
jacques_chester
Leave when you get a good offer.

While this fish was rotting from the head down long before you arrived, it
would be better not to be around when stool samples hit the gaseous
oscillator. Some of it might stick to you by mere association.

~~~
tjmc
This is superior advice to quitting immediately. You're much more likely to
get a good offer if you already have a job and don't _need_ a new one (talking
in the financial sense here) than if you quit first and then have to negotiate
a package from a position of unemployment.

I've seen people quit their job and be forced to come back when they couldn't
find work elsewhere. Why take that risk when there's no need?

------
_pmf_
> In addition to that, we are being thrown onto the Agile train with hope that
> it will save us.

I can hear the higher-level discussion in my head: "We don't have a plan, we
don't have clear requirements, and we have no process ... that means we're
already agile, right?" "Let me look at my checklist, Jeff. Yes, it seems we
are in fact agile."

~~~
FatalBaboon
It's indeed funny how some managers apply Agile methods religiously,
conveniently disregarding the fact that everything else went haywire years
ago. Is that snake oil or what?

~~~
throwaway1979
Agile is the biggest piece of nonsense I've encountered in a over a decade of
software development. Why is it allowed to persist?

~~~
parasubvert
It isn't necessarily nonsense... To some Agile is a word to describe a process
that leads to quality software being delivered with a happy team. To others,
it's a consulting gong show. All depends on who is leading. Just like any
approach.

Lean startups are talked about a lot on HN for example but there are plenty of
debacles and snake oil consultants in that realm as well.

------
iSnow
How do others cope with such a situation if

\- they are no longer in their early 30's. I have a family to sustain.

\- don't see themselves as rockstar developers. I constantly dabble in side
projects from natural language processing to web development to building
Android apps. I feel I provide a lot of "out of the box" input. But since I am
a hard case of impostor's syndrome I don't feel like I could eg. lead a team.
Or, heaven forbid, do a start-up.

I feel I am wasting my life here, but the market is not great for self-
conscious devs.

~~~
tinco
If the option exists to keep doing the horrible job, that means there is no
direct pressure to quit it. That means sustaining your family is never a
problem, you can hold on to the job while you are looking for a new one. You
can even have someone else (a headhunter) do the looking while you work the
job.

Maybe you should stop giving your self syndromes and acknowledge that you know
how to program. Businesses are looking for people who know how to program, why
do you think the market is not great? Last thing I heard many businesses are
still scrambling for web and app developers.

It is a well kept secret, but the kind of team leader that doesn't think he's
a good team leader often is a good team leader. If you position yourself as
just 'one of the boys' you get a lot more honest feedback, and you'll be less
of a cock to your team.

Doing a startup as someone who lacks confidence and needs to sustain a family
seems like a bad idea, unless you could get into YC or something.

Also.. maybe I'm naieve but you should do something about your confidence,
aren't you raising a child?

~~~
iSnow
>Businesses are looking for people who know how to program, why do you think
the market is not great?

Because basically the only interviews I got in the last months were in other
enterprisey gulags. It's not enough to know how to code, you need to be able
to market yourself, be part of the attention-based economy (I am an introvert,
I don't really know how to leave an impression in the web 2.0) and presumably
invest a ton of time in grooming your open-source projects.

I am no complete failure, over the years I have done quite some stuff - but a
lot of that is NSFW, so not so great as a showcase.

>maybe I'm naieve but you should do something about your confidence, aren't
you raising a child?

I don't really know what to make of this - I do, but it's not like I can just
pull myself together to raise my self-confidence. I have been making gradual
improvements, but I just can't flick a switch.

~~~
tinco
>> maybe I'm naieve but you should do something about your confidence, aren't
you raising a child? > I don't really know what to make of this - I do, but
it's not like I can just pull myself together to raise my self-confidence. I
have been making gradual improvements, but I just can't flick a switch.

I'm sorry I am not trying to say that it's something you can just do, but you
were sounding a bit defeatist. If you say you're making gradual improvements I
respect that.

The attention-based economy is simpler than you make it sound. The idea is
just to build something you like, NSFW or not, and put it on github. Use some
hip technologies to show you have the ability to learn new technology.

For fun, here's a small recipe:

Pick a combination of 3 technologies that have been up on HackerNews lately,
say AngularJS with MongoDB and Node.js, do 2 small projects with them, and
maybe an Android app in Java (or whatever your enterprisey language of choice
is) that does something silly like open your garage door or plays words your
child said.

Now you have 3 original projects on github that show aptitude in frontend dev,
backend dev and app dev, fill out your github resume with at least 3 forked
open source projects you find interesting, and another 2 you submitted a patch
to (just fix a spelling mistake in their docs or a trivial bug in their
tracker).

I bet you could build this github resume in 2 months of free moments in
evenings/weekends. Accomplishing this will give you a confidence boost ('hey I
can do hip stuff') and I bet it'll do your resume a lot of good :)

------
krisroadruck
Dude just quit. Do you really need 100 randoms from HN to help you make an
easy adult decision?

------
cpeterso
> _I am planning on doing a graceful back-flip out of this mess and quit. What
> are your suggestions for immediate and eventual haul until my tenure is over
> ?_

Are you asking what you can do to improve the project while you hunt for a new
job? I'm not sure what "immediate and eventual haul" means. It sounds like you
feel some personal or professional motivation to help the project, even if you
have already "checked out".

I recommend that you start your job hunt immediately, network with positive
and connected people in the organization while you still can, leave a good
impression with your managers if possible, and generally avoid rocking the
boat.

Even though it may feel cathartic, burning bridges is unproductive. This is a
small industry and you can only hurt yourself. The organization will not make
_any_ changes based on anything you say in your exit interview that might
rescue the project or improve the lot of the co-workers you leave behind.

------
volkadav
I have to add my vote to the "quit sooner rather than later" column. Several
years ago I worked in a similarly dysfunctional environment (also in a
monopoly position in their industry): terrible code, terrible development
processes, you name it. I was tempted to quit after a month but gritted my
teeth and tried to change things as best I could. I quit after nine months
there because I realized that I was a) getting nowhere with higher
mismanagement b) waking up angry because I was having dreams about the
technical arguments I'd have the next day. Leaving that place was I think one
of the best career decisions I have ever made. Epilogue: I nearly doubled my
salary at my next gig, which also was nicer to work at. Life is too short to
endure a shitty job. Good luck!

------
avelis
Some of the time, potential employers look at what you did when they knew
times were rough at a given job. They assess your actions and ability to
perform under duress. While I do not say stay. I would say take the time to
provide the most value you can while you consider your next career move.

For example: Document inefficiencies, cultivate worthwhile relationships if
applicable, establish trust where available and create a turnaround plan. The
goal is not necessarily that you have to save everything but provide an open
communication channel in case someone decides to shift culture for the better.

Lastly, stay humble. While it seems toxic and a road to nowhere, remember that
where you are could be worse. You are a professional. Don't lose sight of
that.

------
wheaties
Been there. You're in no harm as long as you leave within the next 6 months.
Don't let yourself grow bitter. Don't get to the point where you feel you have
to leave now! You don't want your sanity or your career to suffer. Once you
become "damanged" it will take a while to "heal" but during that time other
hiring managers will pick it up like a sixth sense.

If you make the exit and explain to anyone who asks why you are leaving that
you feel you are under utilized (no negative remarks) then they have to accept
that. If they press, be diplomatic. Good luck.

------
jacquesm
Why stay until 'your tenure is over'? The mess isn't of your making, looks to
be best described as 'management failure' and you're not going to be able to
fix that or even make a dent in it.

Just walk if you can afford it, if you can't afford it start looking for
something better and walk as soon as you have found that.

------
freework
I think this article describes the majority of jobs out there. Of the 5 places
I've worked, only one of them could be described as "functional". I've learned
to just deal with it. I put my 8 hours in each day, and then hit the personal
projects hard when I come home. I've learned not to rely on my job for
anything other than a paycheck.

------
chrismarlow9
Until you find a new gig, go to work, do what you're told, and collect your
paycheck. Don't invest any emotion in it or try to go above and beyond to
help, it will just leave you bitter when it goes nowhere. Get out quickly
though, because it could easily become a blemish on your resume.

------
lefinita
Yes, I have that situation too, with 2 other guys I develop some government's
application from scratch, this 2 other guys don't understand anything about
software development, there's no solid foundation, messy database structure
not even have standard code convention and yes in business level changes is
inevitable, the development itself running for almost 2 years, this is hell
for me, I value best practices in any level, but reality is cruel, even my
boss quit this project and replaced with other mediocre boss.

Until now, I still in this toxic workplace, hope for changes always came
everyday, then again reality is cruel, I'm thinking to quit, surrender, find
other place and I will.

So, my poor friend, if there's no good progress at all, please get out, you
and your talent deserve better.

------
mobilefuture
quit. I know the organization you are talking about, their HR department is a
complete mess right now

~~~
fingerDevnull
Author here: out of curiosity, what is the first and last letter of the city
you think this org is in ?

~~~
s_itrus
First B, Last N?

------
wildmXranat
I would like to say that there's a chance of salvaging the project but there
probably isn't and its not your fault. I haven't been in your situation before
but I would suggest that your course of action depends on you core morals.

Do your job, find a better place switch. if the money is good, consider one
more lap at accepting the state of affairs and stay clear of the guillotine
that will eventually make an appearance.

It sounds like you did more than your part.

------
antonapa
Although I'm no developer I've been in a similar situation, where the boss was
bullying a colleague of mine. Situation got so infected because of this that
almost everyone in the company stood up to the boss. For the bullied
colleague, and the few of us who worked closely to her, it ended up getting us
all fired. I consider myself good at what I do and some of the others that
were sacked excellent. I didn't have the choice to stay or leave. Being let
go, I was afraid my career would take a serious dive. It didn't. Next employer
bumped my salary, gave me great conditions and I actually enjoy working
nowadays.

In hindsight being let go was the best thing for me. It's hard to realize it
when you're in it though. My advice to you is to leave and (try) to never look
back.

Considering bad mouthing your previous employer, just don't. You can share
such details after you're hired and people have gotten to know you. Mention
the work you've done instead during interview.

------
MetaCosm
> There's an insurmountable amount of technical debt that nobody wants to
> acknowledge.

That is the impossible issue. By refusing to acknowledge the fundamental
technical debt, ALL other conversations are entirely pointless.

You end up trying to come up with backchannel misleading ways to solve the
real issue... "maybe if I just say we need more tests" ... "maybe if I
recommend a new architecture, which will force a rewrite" ... etc.

The problem with all these things is that if they aren't validated and
required by the technical debt (which is unacknowledged), you just seem crazy!

I have now had to deal with crippling technical debt twice, and I think it is
maybe the most toxic issue I have ever seen, made worse when there is an
emotional connection or overvaluing of that code.

At a certain point, if you have too much technical debt... I think you just
have to declare bankruptcy on it and start over, doing your best to reuse the
bits that are worth it.

------
msg
I enjoy my job a lot and once in a while I think about quitting. My reasons
are what you might call the first world problems of the tech world. The people
I work with are great, but the organization is occasionally bonkers.

I left a defense contractor because I didn't like the way they managed
projects. I found a new job and gave two weeks notice when a hole appeared in
the schedule.

It is healthy to think about moving on even when you are in a stable, even
great situation. If you don't, you won't make your life an adventure.

Saying all this as a generally satisfied person, I have no doubts I would be
looking for an exit in your shoes.

I would find one too, because as an engineer, interviewer, and needer of
engineering talent to work with, I know that good candidates are hard to come
by.

You are in demand and will be for a long time.

------
Fuxy
Well it looks like a mess and you can't do anything about it so here's what I
would suggest. You already decided you want out so you have nothing to loose
make a lot of noise and get everybody's attention, try to take the lead and
make something out of that crap project. One of 2 things will happen 1 you
will take the lead and save the project and earn a lot of respect from
everyone by doing so or 2 and most likely they will treat you like the new guy
with no experience and ignore your or fire you because you see things they
don't want you to see and are being disruptive.

From where I'm standing both outcomes seem favorable to you 1\. you earn
respect and maybe more 2\. you get out of a failed project and dysfunctional
community

Good luck

------
kyllo
In before michaelochurch.

Since this is non-profit, it almost certainly doesn't pay you well enough to
waste your days on a massive death march project like that. No unit tests?
You've gotta be freakin' kidding me. Cut and run as soon as you can get
another offer.

~~~
aboodman
> In before michaelochurch.

heh.

------
TeeWEE
Quit. Tell the reason why in a polite way. Write an email to the CEO of the
organization, and to your bosses. In the end they will thank you. Find a nice
job that suits your working style.

For me for example, I worked one year in a big telco where they hired lots of
CertifiedScrumMasters, which tried to introduce scrum, but at the same time
managers without any technical knowledge came walking into our room asking
when feature X will be delivered, and why it is not delivired yet.

Introducing automated testing went very difficult since the budget was strict.
Bad developers where hired because they had a "Certified Java" certification.
It's a mess.

I now work at a startup and I get to hire the people! :-)

------
tonyblundell
"The specific project I work on is way behind. It was supposed to be delivered
before I joined. There's an insurmountable amount of technical debt that
nobody wants to acknowledge. Bad decisions were made with regards to developer
software, tools, source control, software design, database management,
environments etc."

Welcome to the wonderful world of IT :-)

My advice: You're going to be looking for a new job very soon and during the
interview you're going to be asked about your last job. You'll tell them how
bad it is and they'll ask you what you did about it. At this time you need to
think about how you'd like to be able to answer that question, and act
accordingly.

------
brokenparser
If all of the common procedures like peer review and QA are absent, you've got
some sweet freedom. The real problem is that you're trying to change it, try
to live with it instead. This kind of workplace could be a lot of fun ;)

------
damoncali
Sounds pretty normal for a big org. If that's not your cup of tea, quit and
move on to something that fits you better and do it quickly. You've got
nothing to lose and they really won't miss you so why prolong the agony?

------
brown9-2
I think it might be revealing that nothing positive or anything about the job
that might want to keep you there is mentioned in the writeup. If you don't
like it and the environment is toxic, life is too short.

------
format
I suppose I am in the minority when I say I was in the same sort of position
but stuck with it. I was hired to work on a zombie of a product, walking dead,
unprofitable. The problem was there had been no direction for several years
and with my help the project is now back on track. There was a period of time
where I did the absolute minimum but by taking the initiative and doubling
down I am proud of what I have done. I have a problem with startup culture
where people are quick to jump ship instead of putting in the required work to
create real change.

------
vpeters25
It seems you already decided to seek greener pastures and your main concern is
what to do until you find something else.

What I have done the couple times I found myself wanting to move on was to
inform my supervisor up front. I ask if it is ok for me to seek new challenges
elsewhere.

This way there is no need to hide from them you are actively pursuing another
job and once you get a new offer, they are not surprised when you give the 2
weeks notice.

Now, needless to say that until you find something else, be professional. Show
up on time, with a smile and perform to the best of your abilities.

------
nmcfarl
I think your plan is right - leaving is the only option. And rocking the boat
before you leave is probably not useful to the org, nor helpful to your
career. This sucker is going down, and moving along is the right call.

As you transferred in, and seem to show some loyalty to the org transferring
seems to be a good possibility to look into, particularly as I agree with
Incision: you in no danger (of getting fired/etc.)

On the other hand projects that are going down are horrible for your mental
health and sometimes physical health, and as such getting out is important.

------
harel
Just imagine what you could do in an environment that nurtures you, values
your opinions and embraces change as a Great Thing (tm). The job markets are
in your favour these days. There are a lot of start ups and more established
companies looking for people like you who obviously stand out. If I was you
I'd start fishing to see what are my options in other places. One of these
options will be something you just can't not take and your notice of
resignation will be easier to hand out.

------
spacecowboy
If you decide to stay, how you handle this situation and how you get to the
end of the project will be remembered by everyone involved. Assuming you dig
in, do the best you can and try to keep your chin up, this can help lead you
to better opportunities on new projects where you are asked for by name. Also,
the relationships you make now, can also follow you and can be leveraged down
the road as the company grows and as you maneuver through the growth of your
career.

------
LoneWolf
While I can't give any meaningful advice I can say that I relate a lot with
the following "People that should not make any decision with regards to how we
develop and deliver the software have all the say." At my workplace I feel the
same, what I have been doing is just keep up with the orders and tasks
assigned, just enough to stay employed. I must say that I have been
considering leaving for a long time now.

------
bifrost
This sounds like almost every nonprofit I've worked for as a consultant. There
are very few that are actually technology driven, moreover they're often
driven by mediocrity.

That doesn't mean they're not nice people, and that they're stupid (well ok
sometimes it does), but it usually means they're working poorly. Often the
organizations lack leadership because people with leadership skills tend to go
for money.

------
gravitronic
Do what I did: Leave and let everything you learnt from whats wrong with the
situation guide how you develop for the rest of your career.

------
TheMagicHorsey
Sometimes the fix cannot be implemented at the team level. It has to be
implemented on a larger systems level. In other words, either the organization
itself has to go bankrupt and be dismembered, or your entire team has to be
dismantled and rebooted.

That's the advantage of living in a capitalist society though. Organization
level reboots are relatively easy.

~~~
rcthompson
Unfortunately according to OP the organization in question is not subject to
market pressures and cannot go out of business.

------
romain_dardour
Find a company you'd want to work in, contact them. If you don't find one,
build it.

You're passionate enough to have written this. Most people do not. Don't let
this situation destroy it.

My co-founder lived in that kind of company for 2 years. He learned a lot of
what not to do but it took its toll.

Sidenote. We're looking for passionate people.

------
genepope
Leave. The org is old enough and established enough that it isn't going to
change and you won't change it, it will change you (think Gollum). There are
plenty of good and great places for a talented person to work. Don't waste
your life working for bad organizations.

------
ap_asdf
What should you do? Quit. Sooner the better. It's like dating someone and
hoping you will be able to change the things you don't like about them later -
it will never happen. Get up, get out and go work for a smarter organization.
Life is too short!

------
chris_wot
Why not put in minimum effort, and do something like study or develop your
skills?

Or put into place unit tests into the code you do write. Or do awesome work on
what you are meant to be doing? Is this at all possible?

------
anuraj
If you don't want to wallow in somebody else's shit, quit.

------
firepoet
My company is hiring. We do things right. Drop me a line if you'd like to hear
more!

~~~
sgdnogb2n
Hey, how's it going?

------
brecked
well, this is obviously the VA.

------
eplanit
You are describing 99 percent of IT shops. Focus on your career, not your
employer.

------
mihn
Change your job. If you can't, change jobs. - that worked so far good for me
:)

------
prisonguard
sidenote, but kind of alarmed by the number of anon accounts getting created
for posts like the OPs.

We could have one anon account for submitting anon posts, whereby upon
request, a one time access password would be generated.

------
anigbrowl
Alternatively, write to your member of Congress describing the problems...

 _I don't feel comfortable bringing suggestions up as I was instructed that
I'm not the source of change._

...such as a supervisor that is resistant to learning new information.

------
neverkn0wsb357
You work for Southern California Edison. Quit.

------
okonomiyaki3000
Do you work for the VA by any chance?

------
natemcguire
you should build something on your own that solves the problem, then open
source it, then quit.

------
spajus
Why did you join such a mess in the first place? Didn't you get some intel
before making a decision?

------
buremba
just take your salary and do side projects.

------
subprotocol
"what do I do?"- If you can jump ship ASAP, there is tons of opportunity out
there.

I was in a similar situation (not quite as bad), but I couldn't leave because
of a business obligation. I survived by insulating myself from the dipshits.
We formed an isolated 'blackops' team within engineering that was beholden to
nobody but ourselves. We were able to move at lightspeed compared to the rest
of engineering.

After a year our small team actually began a major pivot for the company
(culture, technology, etc..) and breathed new life into the company. Most of
the diphits were jettisoned and the others were moved into supporting roles.

------
orokusaki
This sounds like pretty much every software project/team that's managed by a
large company (or a subsidiary thereof).

------
skylan_q
Get all your stuff that's yours out of the office. Don't go back.

------
lancewiggs
As others said - commit to Quit. Create two options for yourself - one job and
one working for yourself. Staying will tar you with the brush of the company.

But before you leave write a very well considered and professional memo and
send it to the CE/board/exec team, offering to meet with them as well. Keep it
internal, and leave it there.

I would aim at communicating three things:

1: That a problem exists at your level, and give three examples of how this
manifests. Focus on how things work rather than on people and personalities
and the overall implications for the project and organisation.

2: Your understanding of the root causes of the problems. For this it's best
to canvas other people but make sure the conclusions are your own and not
blamed on others. Focus on causes that are not people but processes/structures
that have et the organisation up to fail.

3: Your recommendations for the senior exec/board etc. Again I would give
tangible things they can do that do not involve individuals, such as
immediately de-scope the project, bring in certain external help, separate out
this department and that and so on.

If they are smart they will meet with you, and even keep you on in a role
where you can help make changes. I suspect they will not, but at the very
least you will have tried, and they will have evidence that they should not
ignore.

~~~
rdouble
This is terrible advice. Don't send anything other than a neutral message to
your immediate supervisor informing them of your 2 week notice.

~~~
draugadrotten
I agree. When quitting, you have to be positive. Pretend that the workplace
was the best you ever worked for and you regret leaving. "I'll miss everyone
on this great team and the awesome office".

Think about your old workplace as your ex-husband in a divorce. Why would your
ex be happy if you told him he has bad breath and would benefit from regular
workouts? He will be offended and angry.

A company may say they want input from ex-employees, but it's a huge risk for
the ex-employee to give it and there is no upside. Keep quiet, or lie if you
must reply.

My advise is to send only a neutral written notice. If there is any verbal
communication, keep it positive.

~~~
lancewiggs
The only thing we always have is our reputation. I suggest that relying on
others to be nice is a good way to lose it, and that knowing we didn't do the
right thing in a certain circumstance is also bad for our own self-esteem.

If the poster would like a reputation as a nice guy - then sure, he could
leave without saying much and hope that nobody says anything bad about him, or
even remembers that he worked there.

If he'd like a more proactive approach, then he could try to leave a
reputation as a nice yet strong person, a competent person who was brave
enough to try to help, but also polite enough to escalate it quietly.

Imagine being were offered a job at Enron, or with Bernie Madoff, knowing what
we know now. Who would take it? Who would steal away into the night if we
found ourselves there? Who would first try to do something about it or at
least document that we saw things were wrong and/or try to escalate?

I would hope I would be firmly in this camp, trying to be someone who is
unafraid to live to my own values, not those of others.

To reply on the divorce example: A thoughtful discussion about why things are
not working out between two partners is always in order, even after the
divorce. We are all trying to learn. But just as the example of bad breath is
not the root cause of a divorce, some of the symptoms in the original post are
not the real problem.

