
Why Twitter’s Co-Founders Are Betting Big On A Vegan Meat Startup - jkaljundi
http://www.fastcoexist.com/1680007/biz-stone-explains-why-twitters-co-founders-are-betting-big-on-a-vegan-meat-startup#1
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mcfunley
Multiple people are asking why vegetarians would even want this, so let me
list a few reasons:

* There are ethical vegetarians (like me) who like the taste of meat well enough, but dislike the baggage that comes with it. If "fake meat" actually tasted like meat then I would eat it occasionally. Generally speaking other fake meats do not taste like meat.

* People who converted to vegetarianism can have cravings for what they grew up with. For me, the main thing I miss is buffalo wings.

All of that said, I think part of the point of this startup is to convert some
meat eaters into accepting fake meat as an occasional substitute.

~~~
GuiA
>but dislike the baggage that comes with it.

Is it the way some animals are treated, or the killing altogether? If the
former, why not buy your meat from more "humane" sources like free range
farmers etc. ?

~~~
notatoad
the most convincing ethical argument i've heard for vegetarianism has nothing
to do with the treatment/killing of animals, it is that eating vegetables is a
much more efficient use of resources than eating meat. The amount of energy it
takes to grow 500 Calories worth of broccoli is an order of magnitude less
than the energy it takes to raise 500 Calories worth of beef. If all the
resources currently used to raise animals for meat were used to grow
vegetables instead, there would be plenty of food to spare for the whole
planet. I'm curious as to the energy consumption it takes to grow synthetic
meat.

(edit: to be clear, this argument has failed to sway me, i still love eating
meat. It's just something interesting that i've heard before and thought was
worth sharing. There may or may not be actual statistics to back this argument
up.)

~~~
bryanlarsen
500 calories of broccoli takes far more energy to produce than 500 calories of
meat. Broccoli is bulky, it's mostly air & water and indigestible starch. It
takes many pounds of broccoli to get 500 calories, whereas 500 calories of
steak is only a few ounces. So unless that broccoli is hyper-local,
transportation costs alone may make it worse. Even if it is hyper-local, I
still suspect that broccoli is a worse way of converting solar energy into
human energy than cows are.

Environmentalists usually compare meat to calorie dense vegetable sources,
like grains & legumes. That's fair because it's impossible for a human to eat
enough broccoli to stay alive -- it takes about the same amount of energy just
to digest the broccoli as you get from it.

The "standard" metric for meat conversion is that it takes 12 pounds of wheat
to make 1 pound of beef. But that's very misleading. Cows generally don't eat
wheat. Naturally raised cows eat grass. Cows eating grass in midwestern North
America is probably the closest we can get to its natural ecosystem, which
used to be dominated by mammoths eating grass until they were killed off, then
by bison eating grass until they were killed off. But humans can't eat grass.
Cows have four stomachs and a rumination habit that ensure that it is
efficiently digested.

Even feedlot cattle are much more efficient than the 12-1 metric would have
you believe. The feed barley and feed corn varieties that are grown to feed
cattle yield at rates 2-8 times better than the high-protein wheat varieties
fed to humans. Not too mention the fact that when you feed corn to cattle you
feed them the entire plant. Humans just eat the seeds.

~~~
endersshadow
Regardless of the broccoli vs wheat or what have you, something your parent
said was striking--namely, that there would be enough food for the world.
Here's the rub: We don't have a food shortage problem. We have a food
distribution problem. I mean, eat whatever the hell you like--I don't
particularly care, but understand that logistics is the major problem in third
world food supplies today, not supply.

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bryanlarsen
"have a better nutrition profile (no cholesterol, no saturated fat, but lots
of protein)"

That's probably a worse nutritional profile. Naturally raised meats are rich
in the healthy saturated fats, such as stearic acid.

And I thought the cholesterol boogy-man had been thoroughly debunked by now.

Please link a properly conducted study that shows that naturally grown meat is
unhealthy, or that the saturated fat from naturally grown meat is unhealthy.
Most fat studies don't differentiate plant based saturated fats with meat
based ones or with trans-fats. Most meat studies don't differentiate between
red meat and processed meat. It's not the meat in the hot dog that makes the
hot dog unhealthy.

~~~
mangodrunk
>That's probably a worse nutritional profile.

That doesn't seem to be the consensus. There are many studies that meat is
unhealthy (I'm not sure what you mean by naturally grown, perhaps hormones?).
Red meat in particular is considered to be very unhealthy. Also you can get
stearic acid from other sources that don't have that much saturated fat and
cholesterol.

~~~
bryanlarsen
Naturally grown for cows means grass-fed. It has other meanings for different
animals, but it generally means a diet & lifestyle comparable to what their
wild cousins have.

Red meat studies generally consider hot dogs to be red meat. The very few
studies that separate unprocessed red meat from processed red meat find that
unprocessed red meat is just as healthy or even healthier than poultry meat.

~~~
mangodrunk
I see. Well there is this study that concludes that meat from grass-fed cows
is healthier than their grain-fed counterparts [1] but I'm not sure if you can
still consider either healthy and I think you can find other foods that are
much healthier.

>Red meat studies generally consider hot dogs to be red meat.

I don't think that is generally the case. There is this study that
differentiated between the two [2] and the conclusion was that there was an
increase in health risks for unprocessed, but the processed variety was worse.

I understand that it's not good to use one study as proof (or for that matter
any number of studies) but there seem to be more than just this one.

[1] [http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/11/switching-to-
grass-...](http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/11/switching-to-grass-fed-
beef/)

[2]
[http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=11348...](http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1134845)

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Shenglong
Part of the excitement of eating a steak is exploring the different flavors
that come with each individual piece.

Yes, meat might be "bad" for you. Meat might be an ineffective use of
resources. Killing animals may be wrong. But, for meat eaters, part of the
enjoyment is the hedonistic pursuit.

Lots of vegetarians and vegans have expressed their opinions, so let me weigh
in as someone who hasn't eaten a single vegetable for over 12 years: I love
meat, and to many people like myself, these alternative meats are about as
much a replacement as aspartame is for sugar.

~~~
pbreit
You haven't eaten a single vegetable in 12 years? That's weird.

~~~
Shenglong
Whether psychological or physiological, the majority of vegetables make me
throw up almost instantly.

I'm perfectly healthy though. 20/20 vision, competitive for several sports,
can code/sleep/socialize, and I don't really get sick anymore either.

I'll take a vitamin supplement when I remember, which usually ends up being
2-3 times a month.

------
nickler
The main thrust of the argument has little to do with dietary choice, and far
more to do with the negative footprint of factory farming.

Factory farming is a significant contributor to many negatives in the
environment. Methane, fertilizers and hormones/chemicals that seep into
groundwater, fresh water usage, and transportation are massive contributors to
environmental damage.

Disclaimer: I'm a chef, I love meat, and I'm descended from farmers. I still
believe this is the future, once someone nails the texture/flavour issue. I've
been looking into in-vitro meat, but it still looks a ways off <http://new-
harvest.org/substitutes.htm>

Being able to manipulate the fat content and marbling, re-introduce heirloom
breeds, and all produced with a fraction of the footprint makes this a
delicious opportunity.

The real question is the length of the roadmap, it's been decades that people
have been working on this.

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randallu
I am vegan, have been for five years, I don't eat faux meat and never would.

However, good for them. Meat is environmentally unsustainable and is unhealthy
(for both givers and receivers).

~~~
zacharycohn
"Meat is environmentally unsustainable and is unhealthy." Citation needed.

Soy/Tofu, on the other hand, IS unhealthy - particularly for men.[1][2]

[1] - <http://www.menshealth.com/nutrition/soys-negative-effects> [2] -
<http://www.healthiertalk.com/why-tofu-wrecks-your-brain-0246>

~~~
jessedhillon
WTF, Men's Health magazine and some health forum article (whose author
believes water fluoridation is an industrial conspiracy) are considered
reliable sources now?

By these standards, the case for the unsustainable and unhealthy nature of
meat is airtight. But if you want a more reliable source, seek out the UNEP
report on sustainable resource management.

~~~
protomyth
A better reference for tofu would be
<http://www.jacn.org/content/19/2/242.full>

~~~
jessedhillon
Yes the JACN article is at least a scientific study. It is one data point
however, and AFAIK the only study to find a link between soy intake and
decreased cognition -- compared with a large body of research that has
associated intake of soy isoflavones with better health, including better
cognition. These include studies of typical Asian diets, which are known to be
higher in soy than Western diets.

If one was to look at the entire scientific literature honestly and soberly, I
think the evidence would overwhelmingly support the claim for soy health
benefits.

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papaver
i don't understand vegan meat. if you are vegan why would you want to eat
stuff that resembles meat? there are plenty of amazing vegan dishes that look
and taste amazing. it feels like a cop out to be vegan yet eat stuff that
looks like meat. if you want to eat meat, just eat meat! there are plenty of
places to buy meat that are raised by farmers that take care of their animals.
it just costs significantly more than cheap meat.

~~~
sp332
_it feels like a cop out to be vegan yet eat stuff that looks like meat._

Vegan isn't just about meat, it also proscribes eggs and milk. There are a lot
of foods that are better if you have some decent egg and milk analogs.

But mainly, people eat vegan for ethical or health reasons. So maybe they
still really like meat-like textures and flavors, but have strong reasons for
not eating actual meat.

~~~
smacktoward
_So maybe they still really like meat-like textures and flavors_

Almost as if evolution had bred them into meat-eating animals!

Nah, that's crazy talk.

~~~
spacemanaki
Humans are omnivores, not carnivores. We can sustain on a remarkable variety
of diets. Evolution isn't really part of the picture, or even necessarily some
ideal to follow without deviating. After all, the internet and factory farms
aren't part of evolution either.

------
lsc
Interesting. Cheaper meat, I think, is a pretty great thing. I mean, you can
be quite healthy as a vegitarian, but it's a lot of work; I was a vegitarian
growing up, and switched to meat shortly after I moved out of my parents
house, mostly because I wasn't willing to put the culinary effort into eating
a balanced vegitarian diet. You feel better eating nothing but fast food
hamburgers than eating a vegitarian diet that doesn't have enough complete
protien.

I mean, the ethics of eating animals aside (obviously, I don't feel very
strongly about that, I mean, if i was willing to eat meat to save another hour
a night of effort) plant-based protien has the potential to be vastly more
efficent... read: cheaper, read: could feed vastly more humans, or the same
number of humans with fewer resources input.

Seems to me like a great thing with a whole lot of potential to change the
world in a very real and positive way just from a food efficency standpoint. A
real meat substitute could have the effect of another 'green revolution'

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justjimmy
I was one of those meat lovers that stayed away from meat after watching one
of those videos that shows you how we get our meat (slaughter houses,
systematic butchering of animals etc)…for a week.

I'll gladly gobble up any meat/vegan replacement that offers the same texture
and 'chew-ability' as chicken (I've weaned off beef and pork best as I can,
and try to limit myself to just fish and chicken for my inner carnivore). Not
just for environment's sake but also I can sleep just a bit better at night.

We all have our vices – meat's one of mine. I look forward to the day when I
no longer crave meat!

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bryanlarsen
You can eat healthy as a vegetarian, you can eat healthy as an omnivore, but I
highly doubt that this faux meat is going to be healthier than eating plain
foods. Humans evolved to eat certain types of food, and this faux meat is far
from natural. It's made in a factory, and the nutritional proportions are
going to be all out of whack. It breaks Michael Pollan's first two rules:
"Don't eat anything your great grandmother wouldn't recognize as food." and
"Don't eat anything with more than 5 ingredients or ingredients you cannot
pronounce."

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s_m
I frequently eat chicken and I've tried Beyond Meat. It's very difficult to
distinguish from real chicken (unless you char it). It feels juicy, it pulls
apart just like real chicken, and the flavour is very similar too. I was
really impressed, it definitely lives up to the hype. I can't imagine a better
analogue for chicken.

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jessedhillon
Has anyone tried this? How does it compare to, say, Gardein? (the stuff they
serve at Lyfe Kitchen)

~~~
fleitz
People who don't eat meat say it's indistinguishable from meat.

I've never understood the fake meat thing, I eat alot of meat but don't go
around looking for fake vegetables. Even when I go to a vegetarian/vegan
restaurant rarely do I find the imitation dishes to be anywhere near as good
as the originals, however, there are a lot of great vegan/vegetarian dishes
that are much better than any of the faux dishes.

~~~
hahla
Are you serious? People don't eat real meat generally because they don't like
the fact that they're killing a live animal do so. I quit eating meat 5-6
years ago for this reason, yet when I visit restaurants and my friends order
meat I wish I could taste what they're eating.

Meat substitutes currently are terrible, the textures and flavors are
completely off. BeyondMeat supposedly creates a chicken strip that takes like
the real thing, and has the same cooking properties which is extremely
exciting.

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crafter
Any food that, when people see the making of it they cry, is cruel and I
personally won't eat it.

