
Creator of “Ren and Stimpy” Accused of Preying on Underage Girls - dwighttk
https://www.buzzfeed.com/arianelange/john-kricfalusi-ren-stimpy-underage-sexual-abuse
======
dang
All: this is a substantive article. It's also a charged topic. If you comment
here, please do so thoughtfully and help steer the thread away from
ideological battle and other predictables.

~~~
swinginthrowin
any clarifications on what substance there is? this reads like a two minute
hate of a d-list celebrity and i struggle to understand what makes it
interesting in the hacker sense.

~~~
eganist
This is actually the exact sort of long-form journalism I would expect from an
outlet with proper pedigree, and it's the sort of hard-to-monetize journalism
which BuzzFeed funds with its separate clickbait business model.

This is Palanti(e)r journalism from them. Your comment suggests you didn't
even click the link.

~~~
zrobotics
While I may not like it, I am glad that buzzfeed has managed to find a way to
support good journalism. I almost wonder if they wouldn't be better off
segregating these pieces from the rest of their content, as it seems to me
that there are likely two entirely different audiences for each type.

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pnathan
> fostered a libertine atmosphere in which taking offense was itself
> offensive.

I've seen this here and there. What this does - among the useful things - is
it removes the ability to set healthy boundaries. So unhealth grows.
Boundaries are needed in professional and personal life.

> "...Why didn’t you just leave? Well, because this asshole told me when I was
> 13 that I was special, and I don’t have any self-esteem, so I believe it.”
> And the fact was that he had hired her, when she had no prospects, right
> after she was rejected from art school.

This is a complex statement with nuance. What happened is an abuse of power.
But the powerful person understood the talent and capability of the less
powerful. The mentoring was good. The abuse was not.

I wonder how many talented programmers today are in the shoes of the victim,
being taken advantage of by experienced founders and executives.

~~~
michaelchisari
_the powerful person understood the talent and capability of the less
powerful. The mentoring was good._

Except Katie Rice can never really be sure whether Kricfalusi took interest in
her because of her raw talent, or because she was a very young girl who looked
up to him.

In this specific aspect, I see parallels to the situation with Dan Harmon and
Megan Ganz. Ganz was an adult, but there was a huge power dynamic at play in
their professional relationship. While Harmon was interested in her
romantically, he praised her work. Once she made it clear she wasn't
interested, he became his (usual) caustic, over-critical self. And with that
came a lot of doubt as to which was the truth.

Would Kricfalusi have done the same if he weren't interested in her that way?
The women here will never truly know, and that can add salt to the wounds.

------
coldtea
> _And yet Kricfalusi, 62, continues to be widely celebrated as a pioneer in
> the male-dominated field of animation._

Because personal/moral failures somehow make you not be a "pioneer" in your
field?

Or because faulty persons should not be celebrated as anything?

Let's just have Mother Teresa as the sole artistic figure to celebrate then...
oh, wait...

~~~
lomnakkus
I'm really curious about

> Mother Teresa as the sole artistic[...] oh, wait.

What do you mean? I just don't understand if you're saying whether we should
only look to (supposedly) flawless people, or... what? If it's the former then
I submit that there's a pretty long way from "not flawless" to "paedophile".

The reason I ask, is that I think it's acknowledged pretty widely that Mother
Teresa was actually a pretty flawed person who, through blind faith and
belief, actually _worsened_ the suffering of those in her care, and perhaps
even caused the deaths of people who actually had treatable diseases, etc.
etc. There's quite a lot of interesting things: [0]

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Mother_Teresa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Mother_Teresa)

~~~
RickS
I think that's what the poster means.

If you disqualify impactful people who are imperfect, you have disqualified
all people.

------
beedeebeedee
This is one of those times when I don't like how the internet has increased
our connectivity. I'm sure this is a substantive article, but I would prefer
to let my childhood memories of "Ren and Stimpy" fade away without knowing
about this (I didn't read the article).

I trust that this is being handled by the appropriate authorities and the
people who are involved. If it isn't being handled appropriately, then I think
that would be the newsworthy article (not this one).

Correct me if I'm wrong. I didn't read the article and only commented on it
because these types of articles make me uncomfortable. I don't mean to be a
snowflake but it's a bummer seeing this stuff in my favorite newsfeed.

~~~
stickfigure
I think you really have to appreciate art separate from the artist. Many great
figures in history were shits in real life. Paul Johnson's book
_Intellectuals_ is pretty much a gawker-style hit piece of Marx, Sartre,
Tolstoy, Rousseau, Shelly, Brecht, Russell, and others - but it's not wrong.
Hell, John Lennon was a dick to his pre-Yoko family.

Don't romanticize people and I think you can pretty comfortably enjoy both
Netflix and the daily news. Ren & Stimpy is funny in its own right.

~~~
CocaKoala
> In an interview with Howard Stern in the mid-’90s, the radio host asked him
> about a character in the comic book anthology the cartoonist was then
> promoting. Stern called Sody Pop “a hot chick with big cans and nice legs.”
> Kricfalusi responded with a smile: “She’s underage, too.”

You can try to separate the art from the artist, but I feel like you've gotta
get real deep into death of the author before that quote becomes something you
can ignore.

~~~
Arete31415
I get the folks who are upset because this kills a piece of their childhood.
But imagine _being_ one of those girls who grew up with stars in their eyes
about animation, or some other art form. And then imagine having had this
experience. It would be so hard for the _entire art form_ not to feel tainted
afterwards.

Yes, nowadays none of us can watch and enjoy The Cosby Show like, ever again,
but maybe that's ok if it means a predator is no longer able to be a predator.

------
amsilprotag
I remember watching a Stern interview, Billy West Vs John Kricfalusi 1995 [0].
Kricfalusi came across as petty and self-absorbed, essentially calling West a
scab for acceding to management by voice acting multiple characters in later
seasons. West claimed the show would be insolvent otherwise and he needed the
money. Kricfalusi said this act led to defeat of the creative faction by the
executive faction.

I don't know how I stumbled upon it years ago, since it only has ~300 views
even now. But i still remember how psychologically manipulative Kricfalusi
sounded, and my surprised reaction at the end when Stern sided with him.

[0]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6OoJP3VJoA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6OoJP3VJoA)

~~~
barrkel
Most high-powered executives I've interacted with have been psychologically
manipulative. Are you sure it wasn't just an attribute of people who've
wielded some degree of power in a political environment?

------
aerodog
He had a 16 year old girlfriend. Jerry Seinfeld had a 17 year old girlfriend.
Why doesn't Jerry make headlines?

~~~
coldtea
Because public opinion has become more prudish/fundamentalist over the
decades.

Meanwhile, established religious groups marry young teenage girls, sometimes
several of them at once.

~~~
jacquesm
Grooming kids from when they were 14/15 has a lot to do with it, as well as
that it seems this was a pretty calculated thing from day #1.

~~~
coldtea
Well, approaching them at 14 is indeed perverted.

Not sure if the "pre-calculated thing" can be substantiated though.

~~~
jacquesm
He did it (at least) _twice_ , in exactly the same way.

~~~
Frondo
Twice that we know of, twice that people have come forward for.

If the other situations involving abusive men of the last year or so are any
guide, there are others who haven't come forward, for whatever reason.

~~~
jacquesm
Good point. I've added 'at least'.

------
iooi
I wonder if this would still have made the news had he done this outside of
California, where the age of consent is 18 [1]. Most of the country (31
states) has an age of consent of 16, 8 have it at 17, and the remaining have
it at 18.

Not saying this is acceptable, since the age issue isn't as bad as how he
abused his position of power, but just giving some extra context to the
situation. In most of the country, the sentence below wouldn't apply:

> Byrd feels the time has come for Kricfalusi to be held accountable,
> particularly, she said, after the police told her in December that
> Kricfalusi’s alleged crimes against her were too old to investigate. “He
> shouldn’t be able to get away with that,” she said.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_the_United_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_the_United_States)

~~~
gdulli
I'd say it's newsworthy because people deserve to know the context that his
contact with the girl started when she was 13, not 16.

~~~
Arete31415
Look, statutory rape laws are not new. I remember being a 16 year old girl. If
a 40 year old man had approached me in that way, I wouldn't have thought, "Oh
it's the 90's! This is _fine_!" I would have been creeped out and
appalled...which is why predators have to start out subtly and groom their
victims over time.

This behavior has not been "fine" or "legal" for quite some time, but it was
tolerated by individuals in a community, especially if the perpetrator had
influence. The culture of tolerance has changed, that's it. And it hasn't even
changed that much. R. Kelly is known to groom and abuse underage girls, and
he's not currently in prison where he belongs.

------
DoreenMichele
I've read the article and the piece that stands out to me is the inherent
conflict of interest career-wise that women routinely face, regardless of age.

These girls contacted him hoping to further their careers and were surprised
he responded at all. He did further their ambitions for a time, though at a
cost because of his sexual interest in them.

But this is not an issue girls age out of because the problem is not specific
to men whose sexual preference is underage girls. This issue can come up for
any female seeking career advancement by connecting to a powerful man who
happens to not be gay.

------
nothrabannosir
The article links to a YouTube video with a (allegedly) damning remark from
Kricfalusi. Uploaded in Jan 2016, and supposedly still available when the
author wrote this article, it is suddenly “unavailable due to copyright
claims.” Shame.

Does anyone have a copy of this video?

[https://youtu.be/PheypE68BKc?t=2902](https://youtu.be/PheypE68BKc?t=2902)

~~~
subpixel
This video is very cringe-worthy. And not just because of what he is wearing.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msA11gdH_uU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msA11gdH_uU)

------
Red_Tarsius
John Kricfalusi's blog is a treasure trove for anyone willing to learn the
ropes of animation and cartooning. It's one of the most fascinating blogs I've
ever come across, even though I didn't like the style of _Ren & Stimpy_. He
sounds like a very passionate, skillful and opinionated teacher.

> course
> [http://johnkcurriculum.blogspot.com/](http://johnkcurriculum.blogspot.com/)

> posts [http://johnkstuff.blogspot.com/](http://johnkstuff.blogspot.com/)

------
gigatexal
Damnit. Why can’t our cartoon heroes be good people?

~~~
AnIdiotOnTheNet
Fact is practically everyone who makes an impact large enough to be remembered
is one kind of asshole or another. That's just how it is, people aren't
perfect, and if even our heroes can't get it right maybe we shouldn't be so
hard on eachother.

------
existencebox
A bit off topic, and realize there's no way I'm going to come out of writing
this unscathed, but I'm slightly frustrated in that I've used _exactly the
same argument_ you just used here (specifically interesting new phenomenon), I
believe in conversation with you as well (although it could have certainly
been another poster, I certainly try to be internally consistent[0]) in
previous flagged threads. Although those had a political bent, I felt they had
even more connection to tech due to the companies and personalities involved,
as well as their implications.

Can you clarify to me why topics along this(OPs) degree of polarization seem
to get significantly more "institutional" support than many of the topics in
the political/economic space that directly abut technology? I'm somewhat at a
loss how the same standard that you asked readers in the thread in [1], "the
ones that only stir up outrage, however justifiably, and don't also gratify
intellectual curiosity, are not a good fit" wouldn't apply to this as well.

[0](To not say this without some sort of reference, I have a track record of
trying to speak out against these apparent contradictions, and realize I'm
certainly opening myself up to attack here as I did in this post
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16577724](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16577724),
within a thread where you basically said "I guess this wasn't interesting
enough because people flagged it" and it garnered far less of a defense than
this topic has. The original topic for which that thread was posted did not
even get a response, and was merely flagged into oblivion despite massive
upvoting pressure.)
[1][https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16578331](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16578331)

Edit: personal curiosity, is it normal that my post appears minimized as
dead/flagged posts typically do, even in the case that it's ostensibly not?

~~~
jlgaddis
> _Edit: personal curiosity, is it normal that my post appears minimized as
> dead /flagged posts typically do, even in the case that it's ostensibly
> not?_

Similar to flagging/killing a comment/thread, the moderators can also "tag"
(for lack of a better word) a comment/sub-thread so that it will show up
collapsed.

I think it's mostly intended to "hide" comments/sub-threads that may be off-
topic or whatever and allow others to just scroll right past them and avoid
the OT subthread. For me, at least, they seem to grav my attention and I then
want to read them in order to satisfy my curiosity (which is what happened in
this case).

~~~
dang
Right. But perhaps it would be better to just detach this subthread. I've done
that.

------
notafxn
Still waiting for Dan Schneider to fall.

~~~
jessaustin
Wasn't he just fired?

~~~
marpstar
Yes. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-
entertainment/w...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-
entertainment/wp/2018/03/29/the-sudden-end-of-dan-schneiders-time-at-
nickelodeon-where-he-built-an-empire/)

------
odammit
You eediot!

------
CocaKoala
One of the things on my abstract wishlist is a hope that we as a culture can
move away from this trend of saying terrible, awful things under the guise of
'irony'.

> In an interview with Howard Stern in the mid-’90s, the radio host asked him
> about a character in the comic book anthology the cartoonist was then
> promoting. Stern called Sody Pop “a hot chick with big cans and nice legs.”
> Kricfalusi responded with a smile: “She’s underage, too.”

I think anybody would raise an eyebrow at that. It's a messed up statement.
But because it's in the context of this conversation with a shock-jock,
because it's _clearly_ ironic, it's _clearly a joke, why are you taking it so
seriously, lighten up_, nobody called him on the fact that he was saying
something incredibly messed up, and maybe if somebody had, then this would
have come to light earlier.

I understand that freedom of speech is great and people are free to make
whatever jokes they want. But just because they CAN doesn't mean they SHOULD,
and if people stopped making jokes about being a pedophile, about being a
predator, about being a nazi or a misogynist, I think we'd be better off.

~~~
0xdeadbeefbabe
I don't want them pretending to be normal. Why do you want that?

~~~
CocaKoala
It's not that I want pedophiles to act normal and do a better job of hiding
their abuses; rather, I'd just be happier if a) when somebody straight up says
something that's gross like that, it gets called out and investigated and b)
people don't make gross jokes like that to be edgy.

