
3 shirts, 4 pairs of trousers, meet Japans hardcore minimalists - wr1472
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/20/three-shirts-four-pairs-of-trousers-meet-japans-hard-core-minimalists
======
struct
As much as I like the idea of living with only a few possessions, it strikes
me as a constant struggle: where do you put the 50 pack of envelopes you had
to buy to send one letter? Are scissors for opening packaging included in his
possessions? Nail trimmers? Toiletries? A formal pair of shoes? Do you have to
hire all this stuff when you need it, or just keep in a drawer out of sight?
And this is what I didn't get about the KonMari method either: a formal suit
doesn't "bring me joy" any more than a sink plunger, but both are necessary.
How are minimalists able to get away without this cloud of objects following
them?

~~~
swang
they probably borrow from neighbors...?

i definitely run into this problem. i need that _one_ envelope. do i really
want to buy 50 to shove the rest into a drawer?

~~~
mavhc
Sounds like you need some kind of community shop, that sells/loans things you
want in the way you want it.

You don't _need_ the clothes that society tells you you have to wear at
different events, just need 50% of people not to care.

~~~
_9MOTHER9HORSE
Good luck making the selling of individual envelopes commercially viable!

That said, totally agreed there's a gap for bringing the "sharing economy" to
things people buy but rarely use (lawn mowers, leaf blowers, pressure washers,
etc.)

~~~
ajuc
I needed 1 envelope last month. It was 1 PLN (0.3 USD) at nearest street shop
(kiosk). I don't think they lose money on that. I also bought a pen there for
another 1 PLN.

They mostly sell cigarettes, newspapers, chewing gum and tickets, but they
keep some envelopes, empty DVDs, pens, lighters, etc - it's not going to
expire and they have huge markup, so why not?

Are there no small shops in your country?

------
hellofunk
If I had a choice, I'd prefer 4 shirts and 3 pairs of trousers.

~~~
mikekchar
It sounds strange, but I was actually thinking, "What the heck is he doing
with 4 pairs of trousers"? I suppose 2 pairs for work and 2 for relaxing if he
changes at the end of the day... But then why only 3 shirts?

I wonder if this article got slashed to the minimum by the editor because I'm
actually really intrigued by what things he finds essential and why. But there
is nothing in the article other than to assert that this is a growing trend.

Disclosure: When I moved to Japan I gave up all my possessions (either sold or
gave away) and at the age of 39 owned only what would fit in my backpack. I've
slowly accumulated more, but I keep fighting to keep it as small as possible.
I only need 2 pairs of trousers because I work from home ;-)

~~~
Camillo
It's not strange, I was thinking that too. Trousers basically don't get dirty
from being on your body, all the dirt comes from outside. I can wear the same
pair of trousers for weeks before I need to wash them. Shirts, though, may
last as little as two or three days if it's hot and wet outside. And summer in
Japan is that way.

I call shenanigans.

~~~
rjsw
You can handwash shirts and hang them up to dry, trousers are more difficult.

~~~
mikekchar
They really aren't. I used to wash all my clothes by hand every day. If you
don't know how to do it, though, it might take longer for trousers to dry.

Just in case anyone is interested, wring out the water reasonably well from
your clothes. But don't be too harsh because you will rip them eventually.
Instead, lay them out on a fluffy towel. Roll the towel up. Step on one end
and then twist the other end until you can't twist any more. Unroll. Hang up
everything including the towel.

As I used to do my wife's clothes as well, don't do this with a bra with an
underwire ;-) The best thing I found was to fold the towel over the bra and
step on it. Bras dry pretty quickly anyway.

I've done the hand washing thing off and on for several years. I think the
longest stretch was 8 months. The only reason we have a washing machine now is
that my wife does the washing and doesn't like washing by hand. But if you do
it every day, I don't think it takes any more active time than washing dishes
by hand. If you let the clothes pile up for a week, though, you are in for a
long day ;-) (clothes take considerable strength compared to dishes).

I think the main problem in Japan is during the rainy season (now). It can
take quite a long time for clothes to dry. As the parent says, you can get by
without washing trousers. If I was working in an office, I would be hard
pressed to go without 4 shirts. Either that or occasionally go in with a damp
shirt...

------
mhd
I always preferred the Toast's version of the whole KonMari spiel:

"Things like “having chairs” is preventing you from living your best life, and
also you should throw away any item of clothing you’re not currently wearing.
If it’s not on your skin, you don’t really love it, do you?"

[http://the-toast.net/2015/02/24/get-rid-clutter-live-abundan...](http://the-
toast.net/2015/02/24/get-rid-clutter-live-abundantly/)

------
dcacaac
I am not really a minimalist intentionally, but I'd guess that at least by
amount spent I rank near the very bottom of HN posters. Over the last 3 years
I have averaged about $300-400 USD per month, which includes rent and a yearly
visa. I don't own a phone and I have no air conditioning, hot water,
television, etc. I bike or walk everywhere -- no car or moto. I do own a
computer and a 12$ per month internet connection, a set of speakers, a table,
a home-made standing desk, and a mattress. My wife / room mate has a few
things too, but she is similarly minimal. We share books and colored pencils,
but beyond that it's just assorted small items. Even with our relatively small
number of possessions though, moving apartments still seems daunting.

~~~
746F7475
I don't get this new fad of 'not having a phone'

~~~
kagamine
I have 2 phones and I would happily have none. My work phone is basically a
calendar and email with some time-wasting junk on it (games etc). My personal
phone is an mp3 player and a phone, but the damn things drive me crazy because
people always want an answer NOW! and the phones need charging every day, at
least once.

I have now left a programming book in the bathroom because reading up on
something useful is a much better use of the now shorter time spent there than
playing to get to the next level/high score.

Phones now feel oppressive where once they felt amazing. I think of all the
great artists that came before us and I wonder if we are 'missing' great music
or art from the alternative timeline in which a generation is not wasting time
on shooting birds at pigs.

------
maga
As a tech nomad, minimalism wasn't quite optional in my case, and it's really
not that hard to get rid of stuff if you put your mind into it.

What I have problem minimizing is the amount of gadgetry. I use a phablet for
phone and tablet tasks, and a notebook as a workstation which is connected to
extra monitors, storage and such when in an office. While it may not sound as
much, I think I could get away with less. If someone was to release a tablet
comparable to Surface 4 Pro but smaller and with Thunderbolt (i.e. supporting
external graphics) I'd ditch my whole setup in a heartbeat.

~~~
lmm
The Surface Book is really nice, especially with the Surface Dock - leave the
Dock connected to everything at your desk, use the tablet half on its own when
you don't need fancy graphics or keyboard, or the whole thing for notebook-
like tasks. A 13.5" tablet isn't quite small enough to take everywhere, but
might cover enough of the cases - you'd still want some kind of phone I think
but maybe a small one would be enough (or that big samsung smartwatch that has
its own cellular connectivity).

~~~
maga
Thanks for the suggestion. Yes, convertibles are probably the way to go in
near future. Though the current Surface lineup, both tablet and book, don't
fit my requirements mainly due to the lack of Thunderbolt. I need a CUDA
enabled graphic card to experiment with neural nets, trying to attach one to a
tablet without Thuderbolt might prove futile at the moment. There are some
convertibles coming out with Thunderbolt 3 right now, like Acer Switch and
Dell XPS, though I'm not sure about their Core M. I guess I'll wait with
upgrages until the specs for next Surface tablet become known.

~~~
lmm
Sounds like they intend for CUDA to be usable on the surface book and that
it's possibly usable at present with some fiddling, just going by
[http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/forum/surfbook-
su...](http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/forum/surfbook-
surfdrivers/cuda-support-for-the-surface-book-with-
discrete/e23eb530-0a04-4600-9c10-6f9aa35dfc54?page=2) .

------
fhood
This is great, except for tools. I can't imagine living without enough tools
to accomplish most tasks that I am faced with. This means having everything
from a soldering iron and shrink tube, to a table-saw. I just can't imagine
wanting to build something and not being able to do it. In fact, I see a tig
welder in my future for that very reason. I know quite a few people who are
completely reliant on others for something as simple as replacing the wax seal
under a toilet. I don't want to join those people.

~~~
shermanyo
I think a good approach is to buy things if/when you need them, not in
advance. Your example of a tig welder, wait until you have a specific project
that requires it, and then look at your options. For fixing a toilet seal,
only buy the parts you need, don't accumulate a 'spares' draw of parts you can
pick up easily the day you need to work on something.

Maybe a friend buys a welder you could borrow, before you yourself need to use
it. What if you need to unexpectedly fix a different problem? (roofing,
tiling, etc...) Could you need another tool instead that you hadn't planned
for?

I group tools with things like PC hardware, into "under $20", "~$50", "~$100",
"~$250" and "~$500". I normally have $500(AUD) set aside for my next project
(rather than a collection of tools of similar value), so its always there when
I actually need something specific.

I've started working on a hardware MIDI controller with my little brother, so
spent around $250(AUD) one afternoon on a soldering iron, arduino, book and a
few bits and pieces (buttons, pots, LEDs). I avoided huge packs of LEDs,
Resistors, etc... and just bought a few I knew I'd need (10k resistors for the
buttons, etc...).

Anything left over, I'll donate or leave with him. If I don't have another HW
project, I'll probably give him the soldering iron and multimeter too. Plus,
I'll know who to ask first if I need to borrow one in the future ;)

I probably cost myself an additional $100 on this project, but I don't have to
pay for a shed, or 'spare room' (like most of my friends have) to store
various things, so it probably evens out over time.

------
sevenless
Kind of emblematic of our Generation Rent. If you're never going to own
property, there's no reason to accumulate stuff that will burden your next
move...

Having so few clothes isn't a good idea, because it's not a full washer load.
You're doing more laundry than you need to, and you don't have an alternative
if you get them ripped or dirty. It makes more sense to have 10 shirts and 2
pairs of pants. If you can afford it, fine wool and synthetic fabrics are more
durable, quick drying and travel friendly than cotton.

I (somewhat nomadic; 3 continent moves so far) don't practise any kind of
conscious minimalism, but here's my rule: if I haven't used it in a year, out
it goes. That means I've thrown out or sold some nice things, but I don't
accumulate crap. It also means I'm more careful about buying in the first
place. I don't own books; that's what pdfs are for.

Travel minimalism is another thing. If you spend lots of time traveling you
also learn to pack for one single carry-on bag. I recommend turning sets of
clothes and underwear into neat little one-day burritos:
[https://huckberry.com/journal/posts/how-to-skivvy-
roll](https://huckberry.com/journal/posts/how-to-skivvy-roll)

~~~
vmateixeira
_..because it 's not a full washer load_

You're assuming he washes his clothes on a washing machine

------
kristianc
One thing that this article skates over is that many Japanese apartments -
especially in Tokyo - are absolutely tiny and space is really at a Premium.

In the apartment I stayed in, one of the bay windows had been converted into a
wardrobe, my washer/dryer was on the balcony outside, and the 'kitchen'
consisted of a basin and a camping stove. I wonder how much of this minimalism
is borne out of necessity.

------
eddz
Traveling often has forced me to adopt this approach. I do not miss the days
where I owned much more. Slimming down your possessions to a couple of
suitcases worth is liberating, to say the least. Incidentally, I also live in
Japan, but most apartments I have visited here are very cluttered.

~~~
chrisseaton
Minimalism sounds admiral, but how do you stop it limiting your life?

For example someone invites you on a hike but you can't fit decent hiking
boots in your two suitcases. Or someone invites you to a semi-formal dinner
but you can't fit a proper evening jacket in there.

You can't even hire boots as they need to broken in.

~~~
lmm
It forces you to make these choices - either you're someone who enjoys formal
dinners enough to own a formal jacket, or you're not. Either you enjoy hiking
enough to own hiking boots, or you don't. Either you enjoy playing squash
enough to own a squash racket, or you don't. Either you enjoy snorkeling
enough to own a snorkel, or you don't. It removes the ability to keep these
things in the back of the cupboard and tell yourself you like that activity
when actually you haven't done it for five years and aren't going to do it in
the next five years either, forces you to make choices about which hobbies you
enjoy (and take those seriously) and which you don't.

~~~
shermanyo
Also, in most cases the alternative is to hire equipment.

I could never justify owning even a cheap set of golf clubs, pool cue or
bowling shoes, but I'll never turn down an invitation by friends or family. If
I do something rarely, but still enjoy it, I'll treat it like planning and
budgeting for any other night out or holiday.

------
sheraz
I wish I could adopt this with all the files that litter my google drive,
dopbox, and desktop :-/

------
kluck
It is possible to legally own a lot of stuff but still be cool if you lose
most of it.

~~~
DiabloD3
It doesn't seem to be an issue of legality as much as morality.

Items don't make the man. The man makes the items.

~~~
kluck
I meant that the actual problem is the emotional attachment to the things you
own, its not the things themselves. That beeing said, it does not matter, how
much someone owns, just how attached he/she is to it. The lesser attached the
happier, I guess.

------
kakakiki
I envy them for their minimalism. I am not able to achieve that with years of
trying. Items will start piling up unknowingly.

~~~
codev
I spent six months travelling and working remotely recently, in Japan, Taiwan
and Australia. I only had a carry on suitcase and I never missed anything.

I'm now back in London and after two weeks I have bought at least three small
suitcases worth of new things. It's amazing how quickly things pile up. Once I
had the space I started accumulating possessions. I go into shops and come out
with things I didn't know I needed.

~~~
kakakiki
this post has some more images of the minimalist approach -
[http://www.thisisinsider.com/inside-japans-extremely-
minimal...](http://www.thisisinsider.com/inside-japans-extremely-minimalist-
homes-2016-6)

------
ensiferum
I love the concept and have long toyed with the idea of getting rid of stuff
even though I already have slimmed down my possessions.

Personally I try to avoid purchasing anything that I'm not going to need at
least 3 times.

------
sbardle
The West is following Japan in so many ways, I suppose because they had their
financial crisis before us. Herbivore men, minimalist living, collapsing
fertility rates, we are turning Japanese.

~~~
DiabloD3
Yes, and the irony is, that is what destroyed Japanese culture.

The only part they got right was getting rid of the items that don't serve
you.

The part they got wrong was enforcing the behaviors that don't serve you. No
true man (yes yes, no true scotsman argument, I'm aware of the fallacy, just
stick with me on this) is served by being a "herbivore" or whatever term Japan
uses for their men.

If you look at productivity and creativity rates among men, men that spend
significant time on self improvement (eating right, including meat;
exercising, including cardio and weight training; meditation and focusing on
the now (instead of the irrelevant bullshit the Universe throws at us on a
constant basis)) tend to perform much better at any given task.

Japanese men are typically critically devoid of ego, in the sense that they
have no personal value, and often commit suicide once they realize they have
no value and no one would miss them.

Too many Japanese men go to work every day, and celebrate working themselves
to death, as if this is a worthy goal. If you go to _work_ every day, you are
living your life wrong. Every day, you should be focused on things that work
_for_ you, not against you.

If you have to drag yourself to work every day, you are working at the wrong
job. Japan has made doing this a core principal of their culture, and its
killing them, and may actually be one of the driving components behind the
lost decade.

The reason fertility rates are collapsing, and lots of Japanese women aren't
even having sex at all, let alone dating or marrying, is because herbivore men
are not sexy. They just aren't. They want big strong men to lead in the
bedroom (I'm not even being sexist, there has been studies in Japan about
this), and Herbivore men are the exact opposite of that.

Genetically, women are predisposed to want to mate with what we, of the
western world, have generally called "manly men": beards, muscles, a certain
musky scent, a certain way of unapologetically taking what they want, all
signs of health and sexual maturity in ancient man. Japanese men show none of
these traits, and are androgenous as fuck.

I'm not saying half the shit the Silicon Valley culture is doing is any
better, but it isn't nearly as toxic as what Japan does sometimes.

Don't want the US to turn out like Japan? Go put yourself first, take care of
yourself, and enjoy every minute of your life. Do what you find important in
life, don't work at a job just because bills need to be paid.

~~~
sbardle
As I understand it, the "herbivore" man is rejecting the "carnivore" existence
of the Japanese male executive. So he is not working every hour of the day, he
is just getting by. But you are right, they are not focusing on "self
improvement", rather just withdrawing from society.

~~~
DiabloD3
Except, the irony, is Japanese men work harder than they ever have, yet most
consider themselves/are considered by others herbivore.

Japan still thinks it is honorable to literally die at your desk and be
discovered by your coworkers. That aspect of culture is _very_ foreign to me,
and I do not understand it.

------
jacquesm
2 shirts and 3 pairs of trousers more than most street people, who are the
real minimalists of this world.

~~~
newjersey
It is not minimalism if it is not a choice. It is like saying couples with no
access to birth control automatically love children. No, this children are
likely just accidents that people endure.

~~~
nsxwolf
I've never met a person that regretted a single one of their children no
matter how many they had or how poor they were.

If I ever do meet such a person I will gleefully judge them as a bad person.

~~~
logicalDuck
It's a surprisingly high percentage... Here's an article about it, apparently
the choice to have a child or not apparently plays pretty heavily into how you
feel about it. I think it's cruel to judge people for regretting having a
child, they already deal with the guilt of that as well as raising the child.
There are all sorts of feels and viewpoints towards the world so I think as
long as the parent still does their best it's best to respect their feelings
rather than judge them as a bad person for having them.

[http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/09/not-
wantin...](http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/09/not-wanting-kids-
is-entirely-normal/262367/)

~~~
jacquesm
The only percentage that I can find in that article that lists 'unwanted' is
10, and the study is anything but scientific.

For most people birth control is about _when_ they will have their children,
not whether or not they want children. Having kids is - in mosts parts of the
world - still the norm and not having kids the exception. Maybe that will
change over time, it is now socially acceptable not to want children whereas
say 200 years ago that meant that you were either destined to become part of
some religious organization as a monk, nun or in the clergy.

