
Zapping Their Brains at Home - prostoalex
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/24/opinion/sunday/zapping-their-brains-at-home.html?ribbon-ad-idx=19&rref=opinion&module=Ribbon&version=context&region=Header&action=click&contentCollection=Opinion&pgtype=article
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maxharris
There are things worse than people experimenting on themselves. A world where
there are such stringent controls that people are caught and/or punished for
doing it, or where scientists are do not continue to study and publish for
fear of what a few people will do is quite obviously worse.

I am glad that there is at least an attempt here to engage and warn people.
(If I were interested in doing this, I would definitely heed the warning
myself!)

Having said that, we ultimately have to remember and respect the right to
individual self-determination, as well as the incredible value of openness in
scientific research.

While I'm not willing to do this to myself, what if these people are onto
something, and their experimentation leads to something that enriches our
world? (I'm not saying that it's likely, but it is possible.) It's not
anyone's place to do much more than warn them, as has been done, and then to
let them be.

~~~
placebo
While I'm in agreement with everything you've said, I'd like to try and play
devil's advocate:

You could expand this to say that not wearing a seat-belt should be made legal
or that all drugs should be made legal or many other things where informed
consent should be made legal. The problem is that not only many people are
less responsible or intelligent than you might be, their irresponsibility can
lead to harming other people. Suppose the effects of a person experimenting on
themselves might cause some temporary loss of focus or control as a direct
result and this would happen while they were driving or operating heavy
machinery etc. There is a certain balance between personal freedom and laws
that limit it, and sometimes this balance is not in favor of a minority that
don't need the law, but it has to apply to all.

Again, I don't agree with the above argument - just think one should be ready
for it when it is given.

~~~
Houshalter
Not wearing a seatbelt is legal in many places, or at least not enforced. And
enforcing brain zapping would be even harder, because people do it in the
privacy of their own homes.

But the argument isn't about legality. It's whether scientists should work
with these people. They are going to brain zap anyway. The scientists have
nothing to lose by collecting their data. They could also give helpful
warnings and information to limit the harm.

But above all don't call them idiots for trying this. There are desperate
people with serious conditions that are willing to take a small risk for
anything that might help their condition. The medical system is very slow,
conservative, and risk averse, in adopting new treatments. So people that want
better treatments are forced to take it into their own hands. If doctors
offered this treatment today, this wouldn't be an issue.

~~~
placebo
Just in case I was misunderstood, I'm definitely not calling them idiots for
doing this. This generalization is part of why I oppose the argument.

------
ekianjo
It may be relevant to point out that the efficacy of tDCS is far from
established so far:

[http://www.brainstimjrnl.com/article/S1935-861X(15)00857-8/a...](http://www.brainstimjrnl.com/article/S1935-861X\(15\)00857-8/abstract)

> Methods

> Single-session tDCS data in healthy adults (18–50) from every cognitive
> outcome measure reported by at least two different research groups in the
> literature was collected. Outcome measures were divided into 4 broad
> categories: executive function, language, memory, and miscellaneous. To
> account for the paradigmatic variability in the literature, we undertook a
> three-tier analysis system; each with less-stringent inclusion criteria than
> the prior. Standard mean difference values with 95% CIs were generated for
> included studies and pooled for each analysis.

> Results

> Of the 59 analyses conducted, tDCS was found to not have a significant
> effect on any – regardless of inclusion laxity. This includes no effect on
> any working memory outcome or language production task.

~~~
gfgjmfgjmgh
I cannot stop laughing.

Evolution might be dumb (i.e., non-intelligent). But it has had millions of
years to optimise an electric channel. Give that some credit. We cannot sit
down with current tools to push the envelope with just decades of
(mis)understanding.

~~~
danneu
Evolution only helped millions of years of our ancestors get laid. Doesn't
mean you can't push the envelope with a dab of makeup.

------
LukeShu
The HN discussion a couple of weeks ago on "Neuroscientists' Open Letter To
DIY Brain Hackers"[1] (144 comments) might be of interest.

The topic has appeared on HN other times, but never getting >=10 comments.

[1]:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12078895](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12078895)

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percept
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcKUL5E2woc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcKUL5E2woc)

~~~
nchelluri
hahaha, I just finished reading the letter from the neuroscientists, and this
sort of thing is exactly what they were talking about. very appropriate.

------
danielmorozoff
Tms especially has been looked into heavily by researchers as well as the
military over the last 20 years. The results have been remarkable both as
treatment but also as a concentration/ skill and learning booster with effects
being maintained long after treatment. I believe NPR did a segment on this
recently as well.

It's ironic to think that given everything we think we know about how the
brain functions , such a gross and simple procedure as wiring a battery to
your head or inducing a magnetic field would have such strong and even
beneficial effects.

[https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=transcranial+magnetic+s...](https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=transcranial+magnetic+stimulation+military&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjqx7KG6YrOAhUQcCYKHSwDCScQgQMIIjAA)

~~~
jsprogrammer
I'd guess that putting the brain and body in novel states would stimulate all
kinds of effects. Do you know of any more general studies on novel states?
Does the impact of the treatment (TMS) reduce over time (not persistent
effects, but the effect from a single treatment)?

~~~
danielmorozoff
As to your first question I am not sure what you define as 'novel state', I am
assuming you do not mean in the form of and LSD trip. But if you could clarify
I could attempt to address your question.

An interesting example would be the treatment of migraines, and or focal
epilepsy using TMS. Migraine treatment with TMS, is believed to set the brain
in a controlled firing rhythm, whereas migraines are believed to be caused by
uncoordinated neural firing similar to epilepsy but in a milder form.

Recently the FDA has approved such a treatment:
[http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/uc...](http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/ucm378608.htm)

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dpflan
There should be a way for these DIY-ers to share what they're doing with each
other and the scientific and medical community. An application that can
provide a network of support and communication would be beneficial to these
neuro-adventurers (current mental and emotional state, motivations, treatment
plans, etc). Self-medication is not a bad idea, but it can require proper
guidance and information to be truly effective.

~~~
nhaliday
I mean
[https://www.reddit.com/r/nootropics](https://www.reddit.com/r/nootropics)
exists. Probably very few members if any have any involvement in medicine, but
there's a lot of emphasis on randomized controlled trials, meta-analyses,
etc., whenever available.

~~~
pizza
Not really. More an emphasis on people with vague notions having their vague
notions cemented by other over-confident under-informed people with more-
cemented notions.

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deutronium
Ben Krasnow has an awesome project using Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation
(rather than Transcranial direct-current stimulation)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUW7dQ92yDU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUW7dQ92yDU)
(part1)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_olmdAQx5s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_olmdAQx5s)
(part2)

~~~
thatcat
It seems like this would be a more viable path, as TDCS has been shown to have
a negligible effect on the voltage in the brain when tested on cadavers - it
doesn't penetrate.

Since the magnetic approach induces the current, it seems more likely to work.

------
intrasight
From [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-
experimentation_in_medici...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-
experimentation_in_medicine)

"A number of distinguished scientists have indulged in self-experimentation,
including at least five Nobel laureates; in several cases, the prize was
awarded for findings the self-experimentation made possible. Many experiments
were dangerous; various people exposed themselves to pathogenic, toxic or
radioactive materials. Some self-experimenters, like Jesse Lazear and Daniel
Alcides Carrión, died in the course of their research."

------
ChuckMcM
Always a bit scary when people experiment on themselves. I've never understood
why people would put their own brain at risk, either through untested drugs or
untested therapies.

~~~
neurothrowaway
Having had experience with pharmaceutical therapies for ADHD and depression, I
must say that the paternalistic medical approach towards those leave a lot to
be desired.

You generally need to see a doctor or prescribing nurse on a monthly basis in
order to get a prescription. The value of this visit seems to be fairly low,
however; all of the monitoring they do is purely through self reporting, so
they are relying on someone going through complex mental issues to self report
accurately about whether something is helping or hurting. I have never once
had a provider actually perform any kind of testing to determine if any part
of my cognition has improved or declined with the use of these drugs.

These are powerful drugs with strong side effects and withdrawal effects. Even
with just self reporting, I feel like my providers frequently brush off issues
I report; as long as I'm not having severe physical side effects, they figure
it's fine.

Then I had my prescribing nurse quit, and my therapist quit shortly
afterwards, right before I moved to a new state and had to switch primary care
providers at the same time. Of course, it can take months to go through the
enrollment process, wait for medical records to get transferred, wait to find
an available appointment, and so on.

This gap in coverage led me not to be able get my prescriptions filled, and
thus had to deal with the fairly severe withdrawal symptoms while in the
middle of dealing with a fairly stressful move. I had to take some time off
work because I couldn't think straight, due to the combined withdrawal effects
and stress of the move, and spend a lot of time scrambling begging various
people to make appointments soon to get temporary prescription refills, before
eventually just giving up and deciding to finish going through withdrawal.

Given that kind of background, of how poorly managed and frustrating to deal
with drug-based therapies are, I can see the appeal to self-controlled
therapies that don't rely on this complex, fragile, and overbooked network of
licensed medical providers.

That said, I wouldn't try this kind of thing out on myself; one of my
complaints about the drug based therapies is that they are entirely based on
self-reported outcomes, and I find that lack of any kind of rigorous testing
of whether they are effective or whether they are having unintended
consequences in other areas of cognition quite troubling. But I can see the
appeal of having something that doesn't rely on this fairly unreliable and in
many cases unhelpful network of medical providers.

~~~
alsothrowaway12
>This gap in coverage led me not to be able get my prescriptions filled //

I'm in the UK, on prescription with a fixed dose. When the tablets run out I'm
responsible for renewal. Part of the problem with my "condition(s)" is memory
troubles, my short term memory is terrible. I also have anxiety on
communicating using the telephone.

The system is fine if one can manage oneself; I can't do that sufficiently.

What I don't understand is why, as the Doctor has prescribed a long-term
regime of tablets and the dose is fixed, why there's no system to order my
medication and then notify me. Now I realise that not re-ordering if it's not
needed is an efficiency but if I've not reordered and the Doctor hasn't OK-ed
it then something is going wrong in my life that medical authorities need to
know to treat me: like I've been hospitalised, or I'm suffering flu-like
symptoms (withdrawal) and starting to get encroaching thoughts of self-harm
and suicide.

Last time I collected my medication the pharmacy (not physically connected to
the doctor's clinic) told me I had to call the doctor for a in-person review.
Took me a month to drum up the courage to phone them, first available
appointment was 3 weeks away.

Now, I consider myself to be quite healthy, generally capable, not really that
ill. There doesn't seem to be anything in place to allow this system (of
review and medication acquisition) to take account of how my condition
disables me from using the system. If I had severe memory loss I don't see how
I'd manage at all - I presume I'd be treated differently and that I'm just
falling through the gaps a little because my condition is not so severe.

TL;DR observations on impact of mental health on using UK health services.

------
kartD
On a slightly related note, has anyone tried Thync
([http://www.thync.com/](http://www.thync.com/)). It uses tDCS. Wanted to know
anyone's experience with the device?

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chrispie
hmm... feels like there is something missing in this article. nice
introduction and then the article ends. more like a recap of past events.
Would like to hear some summary/conclusion/insights of the in reach diy
"probands".

------
Billonto
I wonder if there are any studies that show this type of stimulation would be
effective for Dyslexia?

~~~
omginternets
I rtied ti nad my lysdexia gto crued. Sussecc!

