
Show HN: Hash your work and store it in a bank transfer for priority statement - steren
http://rschoenm.github.io/prioprepare/
======
PaulHoule
Courts don't really give a damn about postmarked letters and other gimmicks
for preserving priority.

If priority matters for you, it costs about $100 to file a provisional patent
application and that's what you should do.

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roel_v
What actual (as opposed to 'theoretical') problem does this solve? I
understand it solves the fictitious 'prior art' problem many technical people
think exists, but which few or no people who actually do patent stuff I know
consider to be a real issue. Then again I haven't done any actual research on
whether it is an issue, I'm just wondering if anybody with a legal background
was involved in this.

(disclaimer: I have a law degree but have never practiced and have only ever
written a few papers on patent matters, none of which directly involved the
issue at hand).

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pmorici
Am I the only one that doesn't think this idea is particularly new or
interesting? My cryptography professor in undergrad talked about the idea of
hashing your work and publishing the hash in the classifieds of a newspaper as
a publicly verifiable way to timestamp it. That was like 10 years ago and I
don't think the idea was new at the time.

~~~
steren
We don't pretend the idea is new (although Ralf did not find prior scientific
works talking about this). We just want it to spread since it is simple and
cheap.

~~~
pmorici
A quick Google shows there is a good deal of prior published work on the idea
of time stamping with hashes. The Wikipedia articles on the topic lists
published references as early as 1991 and notes that the general idea itself
dates to 1660 when Robert Hooke of Hooke's law fame published an anagram in a
newspaper to timestamp his discovery.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linked_timestamping](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linked_timestamping)

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_timestamping#History](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_timestamping#History)

On another note, is using a bank transaction as a means of publishing even a
good idea? The banks I use only keep recent transactions available online,
between 6 months to two years. So, you would have to print out your bank
statement save it and present that as the proof which isn't particularly
convincing. With a newspaper anyone can go find a copy of that newspaper at a
library and independently verify it. They won't be able to get your private
bank records w/o a lot of hassle.

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kabouseng
Do you also store the original document? From a quick overview it seems you
only store the hash. A typical situation that might occur is that a client
hashes his document, a couple of years later he want to proof priority but
doesn't have the original document anymore (perhaps he appended it, fixed
spelling errors etc). Now his priority statement is worthless.

Why not provide a facility for the client to store his document along with the
hash, encrypted off course. He can encrypt the document himself or you can
provide an application that does it for him.

Charge extra for this feature...

~~~
ultrafez
If you were going to hash your document and store the hash in a bank transfer
comment field, then it would be in your interest to make sure you don't modify
the document in any way.

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michaelmior
It seems the online tool does nothing other than compute the SHA-1 hash. Given
that it seems the documents that a user would want to hash for this method are
likely to be sensitive, it seems prudent to suggest that users use an offline
method of generating the hash.

~~~
uranuran
Here's my exploration of asm.js and the file API for making a offline SHA256:

[https://rawgithub.com/kristofferkoch/web-
lafs/master/test/sh...](https://rawgithub.com/kristofferkoch/web-
lafs/master/test/sha256file.html)

~~~
steren
Thanks. I am using [https://code.google.com/p/crypto-
js/#SHA-2](https://code.google.com/p/crypto-js/#SHA-2) but no web workers yet,
this can be a problem with large files.

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bhousel
Why not just push your work to a private GitHub repo? That would establish
priority and ownership in a much clearer way than inserting a hash into a bank
transfer.

I really think hashing the work causes more problems than it solves.

~~~
icebraining
You can fake the dates on git commits. This repo has commits dating back 20
years:
[https://github.com/Gawen/life/commits/master?page=3](https://github.com/Gawen/life/commits/master?page=3)

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steren
Hi, Ralf and I would love to hear the feedback of HN about the idea of using
bank transfers to store a hash of a document and use this for priority
statement (to prove that you had the document at a certain date). Our goal is
to spread the free idea since we do not think it is used a lot. We created web
and windows software to help people computing a sha256 of their document. Any
feedback is welcomed. Thanks

~~~
angerman
Do you want others to implement your idea as well?

~~~
steren
Our main goal is to help spread the word and see others using this technique.
Implementation is not so difficult since only a hash, but if you want to
contribute or implement it, sure.

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fit2rule
Wouldn't the blockchain be a better place to be sending people to do things
like this?

~~~
steren
Hi, This was also the feedback we had from /r/crypto on Reddit. You are right,
the blockchain would be completely fine and could be even more automated. But
we think that bank statement are more familiar to judges. Banks have to duty
to keep the statements and be able to issue an official copy when requested
for a few decades.

~~~
MetaCosm
[http://www.proofofexistence.com/about](http://www.proofofexistence.com/about)
\-- blockchain version.

Do banks have to maintain the "Comments" by law?

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malanj
You could probably get the same effect by just sending an e-mail using Gmail
(or equivalent online service that wont let you modify its internals) though?

Seems much simpler, and you don't have to explain hashes to anyone....

~~~
steren
Sure, the idea is here. But I am not sure if Google can be a trusted party
regarding timestamps of emails in court.

~~~
malanj
This sounds like a case of crypto nerd's fantasy:
[http://xkcd.com/538/](http://xkcd.com/538/)

In theory...

Judge: "The SHA1 hash in the bank transfer dated 1 Jan matches the hash I
calculated for the document you supplied me, so you must have had access to
the document on 1 Jan. I believe you"

In reality...

Judge: "Wait, you sent an e-mail with this document on 1 January?" You: "Sure,
here's my gmail account. See this screenshot" Judge: "Well, that sorts it"

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czam
Related: Bitcoinproof

Create a forgery-proof timestamp for your data, secured by the bitcoin
network.

[http://vog.github.io/bitcoinproof/](http://vog.github.io/bitcoinproof/)

~~~
steren
/r/crypto also suggested
[http://www.cryptostamp.net/](http://www.cryptostamp.net/)

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hashhash
Is this any better than using pastebin? One may argue that banks are more
trusted for storing money than pastebin is for data, but is there another
reason?

~~~
junto
I assume that the rationale is as follows.

When standing in court trying to prove that you wrote something at a point in
time, the judge is more than likely going to accept a bank statement than
pastebin.com.

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sturmeh
... or put it somewhere publicly accessible/verifiable.

For example a crypto currency block-chain.

