

Who are the 99% - 11031a
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/who-are-the-99-percent/2011/08/25/gIQAt87jKL_blog.html?wprss=ezra-klein

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jarrett
In the hacker community, I often hear the following reaction to this kind of
story: "You got shafted by the system? I guess you shouldn't have blindly
followed someone else's life script."

I'm doing well, and I can't complain. But I'm bothered by the flippant
attitude toward these "99 percenters" who played the game as it was explained
to them and ended up poor. Sure, for successful hackers who find their skills
in demand, it's easy to say that these people are just not creative enough,
that they lacked the insight to see the right path through our economic
system. When your bets paid off, it's easy to criticize those whose bets
didn't.

But it's unfair. Our society insistently thrusts on us a narrative that says
getting an education and working hard will provide a comfortable life. And why
shouldn't people be able to trust that? When the same narrative is told to us
by our parents, teachers, politicians, celebrities, and just about everyone
else, how can we deride those who buy into it?

The grand bargain our economic system has made with the middle class--work
hard, get a degree, work hard some more, and you'll be OK--is turning out to
be a lie for many people. A fair society would not put people into that
position. I understand that economic fairness is not a guiding principle of
our economy, but it ought to be.

~~~
hnal943
The problem with this line of thinking is that there's no one person or group
in charge of "society." Blaming society is the same as blaming yourself (who
else makes up society but the 99%-ers?).

To me, it's disturbing that the quotes come from people who seem so detached
from their own failure. I'd like to see what the majors of these people with
their "advanced degrees" that can't find anyone who thinks they are worth
hiring.

That said, the correct response to these folks' predicament is for them to
change the culture. The best way to do that is not to stage an aimless
protest, but to cut up the credit cards, get 2 or 3 jobs, and teach your
children the right way to handle money.

~~~
jarrett
"Blaming society is the same as blaming yourself (who else makes up society
but the 99%-ers?)"

Not the slightest bit true. Economic and political power are concentrated.
That's one of the main gripes of this movement. The college grads who played
by the rules and got nothing for it did _not_ set the system up that way.
Their plight is due in large part to the economic crisis, which is in turn the
fault of the tiny sliver of the population that gets to gamble with other
people's money.

~~~
hnal943
What rules? There are no rules in any society that _guarantee_ success, except
possibly in a corrupt totalitarian state. They had choices to make; some made
bad ones that ignored the risk they were taking. Everyone in this story has
racked up a mountain of debt. Why? Because they thought that's what everyone
did when they went to school. If conventional wisdom is your only guide, small
wonder you are blown and tossed by the wind.

What tiny sliver of the population forced them to go massively into student
and credit card debt? Who promised them that they would get "good jobs" for
getting "advanced degrees?" The president? Wall Street? "Society?" Seems like
there's no one to hold accountable here but themselves.

~~~
jarrett
"If conventional wisdom is your only guide, small wonder you are blown and
tossed by the wind." This is exactly the attitude that I'm against. It may
seem easy for us on Hacker News to ignore conventional wisdom. But I think
it's perfectly fair that most people should be able to trust the advice that
_almost everyone_ in society gives them.

"What tiny sliver of the population forced them to go massively into student
and credit card debt?" The sliver that does this is the one that eats up an
incredibly disproportionate amount of the value in society, leaving a smaller
pie for everyone else to spend on their education, housing, food, medical
care, etc.. The average middle class person has been taught and fairly
believes that college is a necessity for economic security. If that can only
be paid for with debt, then what is such a person to do? Be an entrepreneur?
Clearly, that's not for everyone. Likewise, you can't expect all these people
to just figure out what careers they can have without an education, then learn
it all through self-teaching.

------
fdia8281z
As a society, we are experiencing a crisis of feedback. There are two
dimensions to this crisis: a wealth gap, and a generation gap.

How does wealth make it difficult for our society to listen? An anecdote from
last year may illustrate. I was around when a PAC for an automated trading
firm was being set up; there was a presentation given on the purpose of the
PAC (which was to make the case that algorithmic trading can be beneficial to
society). Someone asked, "What do we get per dollar spent? Are we buying
influence?" One leader responded, "No, we can't buy influence. But the reality
is that money equals access--access to politicians so that we can have our
side heard." Given the high barrier to access, significant portions of our
society feel alienated from the democratic process, and Occupy Wall Street is
part of our society's struggle to introspect on fundamental problems we face--
especially the broken political process.

How does age impact our society's ability to hear its own feedback? The
generation gap is between the "pre-" and "post-" internet generations. By my
estimation, the delineation is currently somewhere around 35 years of age. If
a person is under 35, there is a good chance that he or she treats social
networking tools like texting, email, twitter, facebook, reddit, etc. as first
class communication. Over, and the chances are low that communication of
highest import or urgency happens through these channels. The average age of
the U.S. House of Representatives is 58.

The following analogy helped me understand why there is no "unified message"
from protesters: "When a person has a problem, like an addiction, the first
step is for them to admit the problem. The second step is to identify the
problem. It's not until the third step that they try to solve the problem.
Right now we need the US as a country to admit there is a problem. Then we can
work on identifying it, and then on fixing it. It is no good if half of the
population says "Here's how to fix the problem" when the other half is still
going "what problem?" This is why it is very important to reach out to people
with all sorts of different political viewpoints so that we have a better
conversation when we try to figure out the cause of the problem and how to fix
it." -- Granito (reddit.com)

I think we can all point to grievances or suggestions from Occupy Wall Street
that are unreasonable or simplifications of larger problems. The needs that
people have, however, are the more important part of this ongoing discussion,
IMO. There is frustration with the processes our society has in place that
give voice to the downtrodden. I think that if we keep that in mind--that we
don't have to agree with every demand, but that we can agree the need for
understanding and better processes exists--then there is mutual benefit to be
had from this current event.

Just like a business will profit if it develops its customers, engages in
their needs, and has good customer service, our society will profit by
listening and understanding this new phenomenon.

------
TomOfTTB
I have a problem with the premise of this article. I note all but one of these
people have a degree. Someone should tell Mr. Klein the unemployment rate
among people with a college degree is only 4.2% which is close to the
transitional rate (the rate where you have full employment and the number only
represents those transitioning from job to job). I don't doubt there are those
with degrees who have found themselves in bad situations but those are the
exceptions.

Almost completely unrepresented in this article are the people the system
really isn't servicing. Those without a High School degree have an
unemployment rate of 14%. With a High School degree it's 9.7%.

Those people are the 99%. The people who NEVER had health care. The people who
couldn't afford an education even in good times. The people who spent their
childhoods struggling to stay alive.

~~~
BCM43
> Someone should tell Mr. Klein the unemployment rate among people with a
> college degree is only 4.2% which is close to the transitional rate

This is the unemployment rate, which is different from the underemployment
rate. It's quite possible a lot of these people have a job, but not one that
fully takes advantage of their degree.

------
hnal943
It's surprising to me to see so many people who have such a poor understanding
of how the world works.

 _I went to graduate school believing that there might be some financial
security afforded by a higher degree, and that with that security I could
finally buy my mom her own house and take care of her. Instead, I have wasted
six years of my life._

I got a degree (without considering how I was going to create value for other
people) and yet I'm not set up for life! Quelle Surprise!

------
droz
One thing I find interesting about the stories that have been getting the most
circulation is that almost all of them bemoan the system, yet very few bother
to outline how they plan to improve their situation.

Seems to me a few of these people are just now realizing that shuffling
through the corrals of life leads you to the slaughter house.

------
cantastoria
_Six years in graduate school... going into debt to get a bfa..., 20k in debt
and still paying tuition..._

At what point do we say "these people just made or are making bad decisions".
What job did the bfa think they were going to get? Is it the governments job
to provide that for them now that they "did everything they were supposed to
do and have nothing to show for it"? And if it's not the government than who?

I'm just unclear what this groups wants and how they think it should be given
to them. Raise taxes on the 1% and then what? Trust that the government will
create jobs for you? Raising taxes is the easy part what's the next step after
that?

------
csomar
\-- These are not rants against the system. They’re not anarchist manifestos.
They’re not calls for a revolution. They’re small stories of people _who
played by the rules_ , _did what they were told_ , and now have nothing to
show for it. Or, worse, they have tens of thousands in debt to show for it. --

Heck, so you make a mistake and then blame Wall St, or someone extremely rich
for it? If you listened to someone, and they were wrong, it's not _their_
mistake, it's _yours_.

Now you are in debt, without a home, a job and with an uncertain future. I
live in a third-world country, I didn't listen to the people, I didn't listen
to the society and their rules. I went and started my own consulting company,
rent a flat, carrying on my studies, working and learning all day... Now I'm
making a double professor salary and I'm only 20 years old. I'm the 1%.

~~~
OstiaAntica
The people who took on too much housing debt, and the banks who lent to them,
were either greedy, or foolish, or a combination of the two. None of them
deserve a public bailout.

------
dneb17
I've always been in IT, so I don't know if my experience applies or not. But
in my field, I have to continuously keep studying and learning -- and that
keeps my value up. I _suspect_ (and see it around me) that many people land a
j.o.b. and then just coast. They don't continue to work hard (ie studying,
reading, staying abreast) and then are suprised to get caught. In other words,
(prior) education != marketable skills.

