
Thieves Who Steal Sunken Warships, Right Down to the Bolts - sergeant3
https://www.outsideonline.com/2168646/how-does-entire-shipwreck-disappear-bolts-and-all
======
CPLX
It's a really interesting story, but I don't get the general slant. Doesn't it
make more sense for us to recover high quality steeel that's sitting there
unused instead of carving up yet another mountain and burning tons of coal to
make it from scratch?

~~~
roel_v
Sunken warships are graves (graveyards maybe, not a sailor myself). So
stealing them is grave robbing.

~~~
sfifs
So when westerners dig up mummies in Egypt, cart them to the Louvre and sell
tickets for the privilege of visitation, that's historical research but when
folks in poorer countries dig up metal from abandoned ships to sell, it's
grave-robbing.

Our ability for self-deception is breath taking.

~~~
manarth
Cultural sensitivity has increased, especially in the last 30 years or so. In
the example of Egyptian mummies, they would be covered under the 1983 law of
Protection of Antiquities.

There's an ongoing controversy around the Elgin Marbles, which were removed to
London between 1801 and 1805, and many people believe they should be returned.

I think there's an increasing recognition that the historic behaviour of
archaeologists removing artifacts for display wasn't necessarily acceptable,
but addressing past wrongs is much harder than preventing new ones.

~~~
Lordarminius
> Cultural sensitivity has increased ...

It has not increased to any degree near adequate. But remove antiquities
foreign antiquities from European museums and see how barren the halls and
storage become... So I guess 'sensitivity' isn't going to increase any more
than present levels.

~~~
virtuabhi
And to return Kohinoor diamond, we will have to remove it from Her Majesty's
crown

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koh-i-Noor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koh-
i-Noor)

------
zkms
Illegal underwater salvage operations to get pre-1945 steel from sunken
warships is so cyberpunk it's almost straight out of Neal Stephenson's
_Cryptonomicon_.

~~~
cyberferret
Snap! - I thought of this book immediately when I started reading that
article. The sheer engineering innovation to salvage those huge quantities of
steel is not dissimilar to the ingenuity shown towards the end of the book.
Different materials, similar challenges to bring to the surface...

------
devoply
I am personally with the salvagers. They are making good use of an economic
resource for themselves and for others. They are also cleaning the ocean of
old debris, not getting lost in some misplaced sense of sentimentality. If the
home countries of these vessels want them so bad they should simply salvage
them themselves. It's stupid that we have laws that protect stuff that sunk
over a few decades ago. If you can't clean it up in 10-20 years, someone else
should be entitled to it who can.

~~~
rogerwilco1
Most of the ships are final resting places for the crew that went down with
them. You don't disturb them for personal economic gain. Just like you don't
steal a 100 year old stone from a graveyard.

~~~
douche
Eh, we loot people's tombs and put their grave goods in museums all the time.
It's essentially the entire business model of the field of archaeology.

The only difference is the amount of time that has passed.

~~~
Nexxxeh
>The only difference is the amount of time that has passed.

To me, your wording makes it sound like you think that is a minor difference.

I think it's a major difference in the negative direction.

These maritime war graves that are being robbed are of men whose children or
grandchildren are alive.

(How many souls were lost aboard the HMS Electra alone, over a hundred ?)

A question I'm not sure I want to know the answer to - what are these thieving
scumbags doing with the remains of the sailors who died aboard these ships?

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sandworm101
Note that this is only about warships... not ships generally. Plenty of
sailors went down, in war, on non-warships. Those are not afforded the same
ethics and were long ago violently cut up for salvage. This boils down to odd
laws, specifically that warships remain property of thier governments forever.
Non-warships are free for the taking once "abandoned" by owners
(oversimplification for space). Dead people are dead people. Why we get upset
about the wargrave of someone in uniform, but dont think twice about the
wargrave of someone not, eludes me.

~~~
ansgri
_Why we get upset about the wargrave of someone in uniform, but dont think
twice about the wargrave of someone not, eludes me._

Because that's what the country is willing to pay you for willing to die for
the country, i.e. being a soldier. The military has to uphold a much higher
standard for honoring the dead, or it will face problems finding new recruits.

------
Mvandenbergh
"The Danish government had tasked them to assess the condition of two
particular Dutch vessels, the Hr. Ms. Java and Hr. Ms. De Ruyter"

That's very generous of the Danish government!

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Jeema101
There's only one long term solution to this problem if the countries involved
want to assure that the remaining sunken ships aren't looted: salvage the
ships themselves and put the wrecks in storage or museums.

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cheath
I find it fascinating that there is enough human introduced radioactivity in
our atmosphere that it's measurable in steel and even problematic for the
creation of some medical devices et al.

~~~
ryanmarsh
I was wondering the same thing. If ambient levels of radiation have been
raised so much since the dawn of nuclear testing, could that be partially to
blame for the corresponding rise in cancer about that time?

~~~
mikeash
There is definitely an effect, but the numbers are relatively small compared
to the overall risk of cancer. This article discusses it extensively:

[http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/pub/fallout-from-
nuc...](http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/pub/fallout-from-nuclear-
weapons-tests-and-cancer-risks/99999)

The overall picture seems to be that thousands of people will get cancer as a
result of fallout from nuclear testing, but millions of people get cancer for
other reasons, so it's not a major effect.

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55555
"there’s plenty of reason for scavengers to risk it: A single brass steering
station can go for $5,000 or more on the internet. The thousands of pounds of
bronze used to make a warship’s propeller can earn about $500,000 in the scrap
market. Factor in the fact that a single ship might have two or more
propellers, and you’re talking about a significant amount of cash."

~~~
veb
I don't buy this either. It's $2/kg right now. a propeller for a destroyer
might weigh what, 5 tons? at most... so that's 5000 * $2 = $10k - I have no
idea where the author is getting $500k from.

~~~
mymythisisthis
It was twice that much several years ago, when the scarp market was hotter. An
old prop might weigh 10 tons. So 20000lb * $4 = $80,000

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imgabe
Is this really stealing? I thought abandoned / destroyed ships in
international waters were essentially fair game for salvage. What laws would
even apply there?

~~~
blackguardx
If there are bodies inside, it is considered a war grave. What do the
salvagers do with the human remains? I imagine they don't try to contact
relatives or respectfully take care of them.

~~~
lawnchair_larry
They do about as much as is being done with those bodies otherwise.

~~~
Freestyler_3
I think the bodies are disturbed, as opposed to not being disturbed.

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ryanmarsh
I don't understand the author's confusion as to how a ship wreck could quietly
be lifted without a trace, we were doing it in the Cold War. Granted back in
1974 [0] such a project was very expensive but GPS and ship stability has
gotten cheaper/better and these war ships are not nearly as deep. The oil and
gas industry uses GPS stabilized vessels during exploration and production.
This shouldn't be that hard for a determined scavenger.

0:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Azorian](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Azorian)

~~~
mikeash
Incidentally, GPS stabilization is also used for SpaceX's ocean landing
platforms. The barge is able to keep itself within a few meters of its target
position. The rocket doesn't track the barge at all. It's just programmed to
fly to the prearranged position where the barge will be.

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valuearb
I'm pretty sure humans can't scavenge entire 4,000 ton warships from bottom of
the sea, leaving only their indentation on the sea floor.

~~~
EliRivers
The fact that there was a 4000 ton warship on the sea bed, which then vanished
leaving only the indentation, suggests that somebody is capable of it. I've
had a look round for species that might be responsible, and so far humans do
seem to be the most likely candidate.

~~~
valuearb
That's the easy answer. I'm thinking an alien ship resting deep in the pacific
needed metal materials for repairs. Or a travel souvenir.

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emmelaich
While using a claw seems more practible [1] it's not without difficulties [2].
I wonder whether using inflatables would work better.[3]

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kursk_submarine_disaster#Salva...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kursk_submarine_disaster#Salvage_operation)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Azorian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Azorian)

[3] [http://ardrubber.en.made-in-
china.com/productimage/gSZmDMRbY...](http://ardrubber.en.made-in-
china.com/productimage/gSZmDMRbYQUu-2f1j00MKoQSrPHhpgj/China-Rubber-
Inflatable-Airbags-for-Wreck-Salvage.html)

and [http://blueoceantackle.com/marine-supply-equipment/ship-
salv...](http://blueoceantackle.com/marine-supply-equipment/ship-salvage-
airbags/)

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pankajdoharey
Well, it most probably could be the work of some government in an attempt to
steal the military tech that could be salvaged. The design of warships and
submarines is invaluable. The only military with such resources to haul cargo
in excess of 6440 tons in those waters is the Chinese army. Especially
considering the secretiveness of the operation which would involve perhaps
hundreds of individuals divers and crew both is no easy feat. This is not the
work of an organized crime syndicate or burglars, nor do they have the
resources to carry out an operation of this scale without getting noticed.

------
zipwitch
Sunken warships vanished from the ocean floor...

The Earth facing an environmental crisis...

Has anyone checked on the IJN Yamato lately?

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Pica_soO
What actually prevents someone from constructing a metal stealing under water
drone? Ones fish farm is another ones scrap for the taking. Do not enter the
ocean, they are infected with Peer-2-Peeranhas

------
intrasight
I would assume that we have or could develop the technology to place audio and
video recording equipment on any historically significant sites.

~~~
sandworm101
Not really. Even just putting a buoy in place has issues. It would turn a
subsurface wreck into a new surface obstacle/hazard. Then you get into the
tricky matter of detection and response. Sending out a tiny ship every time
the buoy lost contact wouldn't be safe. You'd have to assume pirates each and
every time. Local law enforcement/navies aren't going to be happy responding
to possible pirates tampering with a buoy only to find none.

~~~
intrasight
I'm thinking just about detection at this point. Knowing specifically what's
going on and who is doing it would be an important first step towards any
subsequent policing or political action.

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PaulAJ
So WWII steel is particularly good for making nuclear devices, and it would
require nation state resources to steal an entire sunken ship without anyone
noticing. Which nation state can we think of who would want to do that?

~~~
mikeash
I don't buy that claim. The amount of nuclear contamination in steel is really
small. It matters when you're building sensitive instruments, but I don't
think nuclear weapons care very much. After all, they contain at least several
pounds of radioactive material by necessity. A tiny amount of extra background
radiation from the steel casing won't affect things.

Adding to my doubt is the article's mention of "pre-1942 vessels." Why would
that be the date? The first nuclear weapon was detonated in summer 1945, and
I'd wager that contamination remained sufficiently low until sometime in the
50s. According to this page, there were only 7 nuclear test explosions in the
40s, for a total of 9 nuclear explosions all together:

[https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/nucleartesttally](https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/nucleartesttally)

But even if a single bomb is too much, the date should be 1945.

~~~
mschuster91
I believe that 1942 refers to
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Pile-1](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Pile-1),
the world's first artificial nuclear reactor.

Back at the time, there was not very much requirement for nuclear
safety/contamination prevention... so if you want steel definitely free from
non-natural radiation you'll need 1942 or earlier steel.

~~~
mikeash
That seems likely, although I strongly doubt the requirements are _that_
stringent. The issue with bombs isn't just that they release (and create!) a
lot of radioactive material, but that they pulverize that material and push it
high into the atmosphere where a lot of it spreads around the world. Whatever
radioactive material might have escaped from something like Chicago Pile 1
would have stayed local.

Supporting this idea, here's another article on salvaging Japanese wrecks
which mentions low-background steel in the context of ships built in 1943 and
1944: [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/09/images-
reveal-...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/09/images-reveal-three-
more-japanese-wwii-shipwrecks-torn-apart-for-scrap)

------
droithomme
I don't understand the arguments people are making that this is somehow grave
robbing. Grave robbing you open up a grave and steal the personal artifacts
and possibly the bones of the person interred there. Archaeologists have done
a lot of this over the years and that activity is definitely grave robbing.
It's a bit more restricted now in the US due to the NAGRA that restricts
messing with human remains in some contexts.

In this case though the salvagers are not taking the bones out, nor the
personal effects. They are taking huge amounts of steel, brass and copper,
none of which were personal artifacts or property of a single one of the
persons who died at the site.

To call this grave robbing, then removing a wrecked bus or truck from an
accident site on the side of the freeway would have to be considered grave
robbing as well. If the person removing the bus also took the body, wedding
rings and gold teeth of the victims, that would be a crime. But the person
removing the bus isn't doing that.

~~~
LoungeFlyZ
With a bus/truck they remove the bodies (usually). These ships went down with
people in them and are graves. There is a difference.

It would be like you being buried in a coffin in a stone church and then one
day someone decides they want the stones and they take the whole church ...
including you :) As a relative i would be pretty pissed about that too.

If they were correctly identifying bodies and returning them to their families
for proper burial etc... then it might be ok to reuse the steel.

