
The sound of the Hagia Sophia, more than 500 years ago - blegh
https://www.npr.org/2020/02/22/808404928/listen-the-sound-of-the-hagia-sophia-more-than-500-years-ago
======
muraiki
You can find some recordings of a live concert done using this technique on
YouTube:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHpOiX2sO-s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHpOiX2sO-s)

I've been learning and singing Byzantine chant for over a decade now. In fact,
I ended up learning programming because I wanted to create software for
Byzantine notation, which is very different from western notation. Here's an
example of (modern) Byzantine notation with renditions in western notation:
[https://cappellaromana.org/wp-
content/uploads/2014/04/Cherub...](https://cappellaromana.org/wp-
content/uploads/2014/04/Cherubic-Western-Pl-IV_Divine-Liturgy-Music_Cappella-
Romana.pdf)

The top line of western notation shows a fairly straightforward version, while
the bottom line shows one fully-ornamented interpretation. Note that
microtones are used. As far as I can understand, ornamentation/interpretation
can vary by teacher, and I once found a paper that analyzed the microtones
used by various famous chanters to see the differences between them.

I never did end up creating any useful open source software for Byzantine
chant. I did learn Racket, then Django, then became a programmer and now I'm a
data scientist. So I partially ended up where I am because I was sick of
typing out Byzantine chant using special fonts in Microsoft Word! There are
now actually a lot of symbols in unicode for Byzantine music, but I don't
think there's any way to handle the typesetting necessary for combining neumes
in the various possible ways yet (think of how Korean works)... but I haven't
looked into this for a few years.

I love this music, not only for the beauty of its sound but also the
incredible richness of the hymns. There are teachers in the United States
working on developing good methods for teaching all of this to people without
such a cultural background, and critically, singing it in English so that the
meaning can be understood by those who don't know Greek or Arabic. Chanting
with my choir is one of my greatest joys in life. Glory to God for all things.

~~~
mycoborea
I appreciate the links and your story sounds interesting. I’m an Orthodox
catechumen myself and am very interested in learning to sing the Liturgy as
well as other chants. Might you have any tips or resources on how one might
start really learning (besides just practicing)?

~~~
muraiki
For Byzantine chant, I strongly recommend immersing yourself in the music by
listening to it as much as possible. Try to focus on music in your native
language--if it's English, then there are more and more recordings coming out.
Become familiar with the scales that are used and learn what tone each song is
going with. Memorize and sing back the simpler melodies that you can manage,
such as the troparia commonly sung every week.

If your parish does chant, express your interest to the lead chanter and see
what they have to say about learning. While we of course want everyone to be
able to participate, if somebody is really off (especially with ison, which
are the held "bass notes"), it can confuse people and cause a lot of chaos in
the middle of a service. :)

If your parish doesn't chant (meaning they only sing perhaps Russian-style
four-part harmony), then you have a more difficult road ahead. It's hard to
develop this skill without a mentor and without often practicing it in the
real life context of the services. And it's of course nice when you don't have
to lead a service while also being a beginner!

I encourage you to check out
[https://www.byzantinebeginnings.com/](https://www.byzantinebeginnings.com/)
It's a unique teaching method for chant using games and exercises, rather than
just reading sheet music. Although I had chanted for many years, after I took
the first course I really improved a lot. A good friend of mine is involved in
creating it and has used her professional teaching experience to shape its
pedagogy, although it's still being refined between sessions.

Finally, I strongly recommend learning Byzantine notation over using western
notation, even if you are familiar with the latter. Byzantine notation is a
DSL optimized for conveying the subtle rhythm and ornamentation that is often
lost in translations to the western staff. The loss of this can make
renditions sound stale and lifeless. As you can see in my original comment,
fully translating such nuances results in way too much boilerplate! An
experienced chanter can read a series of neumes like words in a sentence and
know all of the musical richness to impart to it.

May you have a blessed start to your Lenten journey.

~~~
mycoborea
Thanks so much.

------
tdumitrescu
I sang on this CD. The NPR piece linked here appears to be based on a segment
we did a few years later for Pop-Up Magazine in Oakland. An interesting
technological tidbit that they didn't mention is the use of contact mics for
recreating the Hagia Sophia acoustic in live performances (and the CD
recording). The Stanford crew would tape these tiny mics to the middle of our
foreheads (with wires running down to portable wireless transmitters on the
belt) to get a good mixable channel for each singer, which would go through
their signal processing gear to produce an acoustic backing mixed with the
live singing. This is totally unusual for performances of this repertory; you
normally do concerts entirely "acoustic" with no mics or monitors, and good
recordings typically involve either a single pair of crossed mics in front of
the whole ensemble or a few strategically placed mics in the space, but no
per-singer channels and pop-style mixing tech.

------
beloch
The next step (that will probably never happen) would be to refurnish the
Hagia Sophia, as it would have been before it was plundered in the fourth
crusade, and seat an audience in it, as if for a mass. Then pop another
balloon. All those extra furnishings and bodies would have had a significant
impact on how the space sounded. The plastered over mosaics might also create
a noticeable effect that would need to be compensated for. Even with the
impressive work of Abel and Pentcheva we still have something that would
likely sound empty and strangely hollow to people familiar with the Hagia
Sophia when it was serving as a church.

~~~
shrubble
The last Orthodox church services were in 1453. So I doubt that there will be
many critics who remember back that far :)

~~~
sb057
Actually, there was an (incredibly unauthorized) service held in 1919 during
the Allied occupation of the city:

[https://greece.greekreporter.com/2019/09/26/the-brave-
greek-...](https://greece.greekreporter.com/2019/09/26/the-brave-greek-priest-
who-held-a-divine-liturgy-in-hagia-sophia-in-1919/)

~~~
beloch
That could have turned out so much worse for all involved, but I suspect those
involved had different perceptions of the risks than we do now. Though there
was still some risk of dying, this must have seemed like a cakewalk compared
to jumping out of a WWI trench!

------
RcouF1uZ4gsC
> Now imagine - it's the early 13th century. You're sitting inside the Hagia
> Sophia. Marble pillars rise up around you. Dusty light filters into the
> windows in the massive dome above.

The Hagia Sophia was also a great tool for the Byzantine Emperors to convert
other leaders to Orthodox Christianity. There are stories of various leaders
being so overcome by the experience of a mass in the Hagia Sophia that they
embraced Orthodox Christianity and became allies of the emperor.

~~~
Florin_Andrei
That basically works like the concept of "culture" in the Civilization video
games. If you have more "culture" you gain all sorts of upper hands over the
other players.

(I know the comparison is rather silly)

~~~
wahern
Seems like a very apt comparison. The spread of Christianity and Islam,
including denominational conversions, works much the same today. In fact, in
some places it's far more crass--fancy cars and huge televisions replace
grandiose public buildings and fine art as symbols and enticements of a more
civilized and prosperous life awaiting converts.

I don't mean to demean religion, it's just the reality of how mass conversions
often work. You get pulled in by the fancy cars, but you stay for the social
networks and economic opportunities.

------
red-indian
"Only possible in the last 10 years" is not correct.

Computer musicians have used the IRCAM ISPW board as far back as 1989 to
implement live real time convolution. Single purpose realtime convolution
reverb hardware has been commercially available since Sony's 1999 DRE S777.
Non-real time convolution has been done for decades as well, including by
myself in 1991 and likely hundreds of others during that time period. Real
time convolution on an off the shelf affordable consumer platform has been
available for a long time as well, including eMagic's Space Designer plugin
which was released in 2003. It's still part of Apple Logic.

~~~
James_Henry
I think Abel was talking about his and his colleagues work in this paper when
he said the 10 years comment:
[https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Bissera_Pentcheva/publi...](https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Bissera_Pentcheva/publication/277732009_Estimating_Room_Impulse_Responses_from_Recorded_Balloon_Pops/links/563a4b4408ae45b5d284a8ce.pdf)

He's not just talking about being able to do convolution.

~~~
red-indian
To be perfectly clear, some have been sampling reverb spaces for use in
convolution reverbs using a starter pistol since the 1980s, and the procedure
became widespread in the 1990s.

It is not 10 years old at all in any imaginable interpretation.

This person's "innovation" of popping balloons instead of using a starter
pistol is completely and totally irrelevant and inconsequential.

------
rosybox
Just listening to the balloon pop in the Hagia Sophia was amazing to hear. Are
there any other structures with similar acoustics that still holds
performances?

Also there's a YouTube playlist of the recording they mention at the end, the
Lost Voices of Hagia Sophia:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VrJ8XOwJzw&list=OLAK5uy_k98...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VrJ8XOwJzw&list=OLAK5uy_k98CAyJvDBJ0yBJQcDVyscJ1lNF66G92s)

~~~
elorant
I don't know if it qualifies as a structure since it's open, but the ancient
theatre of Epidaurus is renowned for its acoustics and is still operational to
this day.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Theatre_of_Epidaurus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Theatre_of_Epidaurus)

------
patrickdavey
This was beautiful to listen to. By pure luck (should have done more reading),
I was visiting Pisa in Italy. There's a building (the baptistry) _beside_ the
leaning tower, which has the most perfect acoustics.

Every hour, they close the doors and a person sings a series of individual
notes which then interact just _beautifully_ in the building. Hard to
describe. There's a soundcloud[1] here, not mine, stars properly around 1:23.
I think you really have to be there though, it was wonderful.

[1] [https://soundcloud.com/miguelisazam/pisa-baptistry-of-st-
joh...](https://soundcloud.com/miguelisazam/pisa-baptistry-of-st-john) [2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pisa_Baptistery](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pisa_Baptistery)

~~~
1ceaham
If you're interested, researchers from the University of Bologna have been
working on virtual acoustic models of that space in its current form [0] as
well as past configurations [1] that you might be able to look into. It is
truly huge reverberation! And thus, pretty difficult to simulate.

[0]
[https://doi.org/10.1080/19401493.2020.1728382](https://doi.org/10.1080/19401493.2020.1728382)
[1] [http://pub.dega-
akustik.de/ICA2019/data/articles/000682.pdf](http://pub.dega-
akustik.de/ICA2019/data/articles/000682.pdf)

------
peapicker
Convolution reverbs are pretty cool. For Ableton Live Suite users, Ableton has
made available a MaxForLive device that lets you make your own impulse
response files for use with their convolution reverb, I've used it.

Howto: [https://www.ableton.com/en/blog/make-your-own-impulse-
respon...](https://www.ableton.com/en/blog/make-your-own-impulse-responses-
live-9s-convolution-reverb/)

~~~
dzidol
Yeah... And some still remember recording the sound of popped baloons in
different environments (or checked the response of analog filters to a single
spike) to use it with first version of SIR VST. Awesome experience, at least
as for that forgotten times.

------
longspeaker
This was really cool. It kind of clashes as I suspect the kind of people that
like to hear cathedral music might not be into the lack of authenticity a
filter added to a studio performance might give off. It would be cool to hear
an actual performance side by side and see how close they got but that seems
even less likely given the current politics.

Talked about in the bit, the Hagia was a church, then a mosque and is now a
museum which is apt considering how many cultures touched this thing. This was
mainly due to Ataturk's forward-thinking secular reforms in the 1930s. The
current Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan has signaled his intention, multiple
times, to change it's status back to that of a mosque[0] which I think rather
unfortunate. Muslim prayers have been allowed at the site for a few years and
I suspect it isn't long before Erdogan makes good on his promise.

[0]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagia_Sophia#cite_ref-67](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagia_Sophia#cite_ref-67)

------
isjustaguy
A few years ago I went to Aya Sofya with a Turkish violinist friend who
studiest at a conservatory here. Unexpectedly, up on the top floor, he pulled
out his violin and started playing an Armenian/Azeri song called "Laz".

He made it through 3 glorious minutes before security escorted him out. The
sound was unreal.

I would love to hear the same test done in the Basilica Cistern.

~~~
batirch
Do you have video?

~~~
isjustaguy
My apologies, the song itself is called Lachin, not Laz.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jq2KWVrLKEM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jq2KWVrLKEM)

(Not the Aya Sofya moment)

------
Link-
The album of Capella Romana is on Spotify for whoever's interested:
[https://open.spotify.com/album/5iB2tDdXCTaV2PMlcgNYdA?si=X_k...](https://open.spotify.com/album/5iB2tDdXCTaV2PMlcgNYdA?si=X_kV4IvbRJ-
qKlTO-mfLtA)

This will be my background music for weeks now :D

~~~
briandear
Here's the Apple Music link as well: [https://music.apple.com/us/album/lost-
voices-of-hagia-sophia...](https://music.apple.com/us/album/lost-voices-of-
hagia-sophia/1485025261)

~~~
unsignedchar
And on Youtube Music

[https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kFvQRadRiMgs...](https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kFvQRadRiMgsuONr5wye4DtvSHXSta3iQ)

------
rabboRubble
Really beautiful, glad I took the few minutes to listen.

~~~
dna_polymerase
Couldn't agree more. For those who listened, Capella Romana's "The Lost Voices
of Hagia Sophia" is also available on Spotify. It's amazing.

------
praptak
Digital reverb algorithms are a huge and interesting area. One can recreate
the acoustics of a venue from recordings of a balloon pop or a pistol shot.
One can also create physically impossible reverbs, where the echoes precede
the actual sound or get louder instead of fading.

~~~
derwiki
Could you point me to more info/examples on physically impossible reverbs?

~~~
wl
Convolutional reverb means you convolve the impulse response of a system with
a "dry" input signal to get your output. If the impulse response has any
content before t=0, that content will cause a sound in your input signal to
have an effect on the output before it happens. "Acausal" is the jargon.

~~~
ptah
that's possible with normal reverbs too. reverse reverb is quite a popular
creative tool. i've used it on snares to make them suck you in before popping
you out

------
rdtsc
Beautifully done, especially the transition from the studio to the simulated
environment.

You can hear similar choral music if you visit an Orthodox Church or
monastery, specifically a Greek or Georgian one maybe.

------
Brendinooo
It says on Cappella Romana's site that "For a thousand years, Hagia Sophia was
the largest enclosed space in the world."

An interesting fact to get out this rabbit hole.

------
adaisadais
I remember the first time I saw a drawing of Hagia Sophia in my history book.
I was so amazed! It baffles me that the designers and builders of these
“ancient” marvels often did not know why, from a scientific standpoint, that
these buildings didn’t just topple over.

This sound bite is magical.

------
arriu
Truly beautiful, thanks for sharing.

Kind of reminds me of the following bit where deadmau5 talks about reverb and
compression to create a sound that goes beyond what the oscillators generate.
He plays a tune without, it illustrates a similar effect. (warning: lots of
cussing)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYr6nlqV3oA&feature=youtu.be...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYr6nlqV3oA&feature=youtu.be&t=823)

------
prgmatic
This practice continues in the Armenian church in their liturgical music:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmQcQ4M8ROg&t=740s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmQcQ4M8ROg&t=740s)

Not coincidentally, Armenian church and its rituals are some of the oldest in
the world.

~~~
cat199
Not to 'akshually', but this specific practice more directly continues in the
greek orthodox church - greek & armenian churches began to split in 500s
before hagia sophia was completed and split was 'complete' shortly afterwords,
which is not to say there are not many similarities.

------
screamingmunch
Sad that we don't really consider acoustics when building our modern
structures/dwellings these days.

~~~
jacobjr23
We do when building halls/stadiums/opera houses/temples/places where acoustics
matter.

~~~
frandroid
I think Parent suggests that acoustics matter more than just in spaces for
explicit sound consumption.

~~~
jcims
Yes like open office plans.

------
keiferski
Any links or ideas on what it would sound like during the Ottoman Era? It was
the primary mosque of the empire for centuries, so I’d imagine there had to be
some form of singing or chanting (Sufis, maybe?)

------
arethuza
On a related note, I've just finished _Istanbul - A Tale of Three Cities_ by
Bettany Hughes - which covers the amazing history of the city, strongly
recommended!

------
aksss
tl;dr: analyzing the sound of a balloon popping in Hagia Sophia, they made an
audio filter using techniques and understanding of sound in space that only
became available in last 10 years. Cappella Romana made an album called Lost
Voices of Hagia Sophia using this filter to recreate the experience of
listening to Christian chants in that space. It's available on Spotify,
headphones probably best.

~~~
wl
> they made an audio filter using techniques and understanding of sound in
> space that only became available in last 10 years.

This is an old technique. The idea of convolving the impulse response of a
system with an input to yield the output is the basis of LTI systems theory.
And while convolution isn't the most computationally light operation in the
world, computers have been up to the task of practically performing such
operations on audio signals for at least 20 years.

There's been some more recent work about more efficiently and accurately
measuring the impulse responses of a space, but given they're using balloon
pops, they're not using that work.

~~~
topspin
I wonder why one would need an impulse response recording. The dimensions and
materials of the chamber are known. Seems like the effect could be synthesized
from that.

~~~
gmueckl
As I metioned earlier, the tricky part is measuring the materials. The rest
can be done with pretty high accuracy. There are commercial packages for that
like Odeon or CATT acoustics.

These days, some of the simulation algorithms are slowly trickling into game
engines, too, with the push for realistic VR. Unfortunately, these still
require some larger quality/performance tradeoffs because they have to share
the processor with all the other work the engine has to perform. But it is
still quite convincing. So with this tech, you actually get to walk around in
a space and hear the reverb adjusting in real time, even when the geometry of
the space changes.

------
quickthrower2
Instagram filters for sound. You heard it here first!

------
theklub
O man I heard this on the radio and it gave me chills.

------
ptah
have they made the impulse response data available. would be great to load
this into Logic Pro X to use on other material.

------
MichaelMoser123
do the acoustics of the Hagia Sophia differ from that of the Pantheon/Basilica
of St. Mary and the Martyrs in Rome?

------
kazinator
TLDR; they took an impulse response in the building for use in a convolution
reverb.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convolution_reverb](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convolution_reverb)

------
sakopov
This sounds very much like modern day Georgian choir singing.

------
ninjamayo
Truly magical!

------
onetimemanytime
I find chants very relaxing. And, it has nothing to do with a specific
religion.

P.S. Its weird, but the Orthodox, generally speaking, "hate" Catholics more
than they hate Muslims. In fact, a Muslim was /is the referee to the Church of
the Holy Sepulchre [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-religion-jerusalem-
church...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-religion-jerusalem-
church/muslim-holds-ancient-key-to-jesus-tomb-site-in-jerusalem-idUSKBN1DU17Q)
Might have to do with the split and a tiny thing like
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Constantinople](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Constantinople)

~~~
sb057
>In fact, a Muslim was /is the referee to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre

The Catholic Church has partial jurisdiction and would also be subject to any
referee-ing.

