
Toyota invests $394m in Joby Aviation's flying taxis - ngoel36
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-15/toyota-invests-394-million-in-joby-aviation-s-flying-taxis
======
the_duke
There are _a lot_ of companies working on "flying taxis".

All of those seem to have a large footprint with lots of rotors, meaning they
will need dedicated landing/take off zones.

This seems to limit their usability a lot, turning them more into a short
range point to point helicopter service.

Not to mention the noise pollution. Those things are all loud.

Combine that with limited speed and range, and I just don't see the concept
taking off in a big way.

Some other competitors:

* Volocopter: [https://www.volocopter.com](https://www.volocopter.com) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OazFiIhwAEs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OazFiIhwAEs)

* Hyunday S-A1: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6K7GAG1Aas](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6K7GAG1Aas)

* Bell Nexus: [https://www.bellflight.com/products/bell-nexus](https://www.bellflight.com/products/bell-nexus)

* Ehang: [https://www.ehang.com/ehang184/index](https://www.ehang.com/ehang184/index) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d66MoI4GdFs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d66MoI4GdFs)

* Kitty Hawk HeavySide (Larry Page pet project): [https://kittyhawk.aero](https://kittyhawk.aero) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7mc3C19kE4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7mc3C19kE4)

* Lilium (branded as jet): [https://lilium.com](https://lilium.com) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qotuu8JjQM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qotuu8JjQM)

~~~
joshribakoff
From what I gather most companies in the space plan to land and take off from
rooftops. That leaves a lot more options for stations and edges connecting
them leading to a denser network than something like a subterranean train
which requires dedicated stations with tunnels in between them

~~~
imposterr
There's actually examples of this in the world now. In São Paulo, the rich
take helicopters between buildings [1].

[1]
[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/jun/20/brazil](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/jun/20/brazil)

~~~
mc32
Even so there are only 469 (in 2008 according to the article) in all of São
Paulo and that’s the metro area with the most helicopters in the world.

I doubt the likes of Hyundai are looking to sell their things “in the hundreds
to thousands” range.

It’d a a big change in air traffic and noise pollution.

~~~
malandrew
You'd be surprised how far 469 heliports go. That's one more than the number
of stations the NY Metro has, which is the metro with the most number of
stations in the world. Now imagine you could travel as the crow flies between
any station in NYC. That's awesome efficiency, and if you still need you can
grab an Uber at street level if you're still not close enough.

You're also not limited to just those 469 heliports. The vertices of the
convex hull they produce can all serve as jumping off points to go about a 100
miles further to heliports one may have in ones own home.

For the rich in São Paulo, that may be homes in places like Angra do Reis and
Laranjeiras. Even places like those two (which sit between Rio de Janeiro and
São Paulo, can serve as connection points to jump from São Paulo to Rio de
Janeiro with only one or two stops in between the two cities.

When you eliminate the time in traffic traffic to get to Congonhas or
Guarulhos and the time spent in airport security, it makes a ton of sense for
those with the means. Eventually as the tech progresses and becomes cheaper it
will become accessible to more than just the very very rich.

~~~
seoulmetro
No. Seoul Metro has nearly double that of NYC. I have no idea how you could
possibly think NYC has the most in the world. Just think of most Chinese
cities, let alone Korea's capital.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seoul_Metropolitan_Subway](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seoul_Metropolitan_Subway)

~~~
ta1234567890
Also Tokyo, Japan. It's ranked first in the world on subway usage and has 882
railway stations.
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyo_subway](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyo_subway)

~~~
seoulsubway
Actually Tokyo has much less than Seoul. You're counting railway stations, not
subway stations. There's a large difference. Though the water is quite
muddled, the easiest way is to actually look at the maps of the differing
cities.

I was actually very let down by the metro of Tokyo compared to other Asian
cities. Probably due to my high expectations.

------
kgilpin
If an aircraft can’t glide or autorotate then I don’t understand how it can be
safe at low altitudes. Because whole plane parachutes (BRS) have a minimum
altitude required to open successfully, and that altitude is a lot higher than
anyone would care to drop.

Airplanes have energy from their forward motion. Helicopters have energy in
their rotor blades. This energy can be used to soften a crash landing. Without
this available energy, and without a parachute, then how do you soften a crash
and survive?

People say that electric motors are so reliable... But batteries can
spontaneously combust.

I would like to know how these aircraft are safe enough to be treated the same
as a taxi ride.

~~~
nradov
The usual approach is to use a rocket to accelerate parachute deployment so
that it's usable at lower altitudes. But even so there may be a "dead zone" in
part of the flight envelope.

------
darkteflon
This is pretty much everything you need to know about Toyota - everything you
need to know about corporate Japan - wrapped up neatly in one anecdote. Toyota
can’t make a plug-in electric car to save themselves but for white elephants
like flying cars and smart cities they are all in.

~~~
ianai
Uh the Prius Prime and (later this year) RAV4 prime exist or will soon. What’s
your point?

~~~
umeshunni
Not OP, but I'm guessing their point is that Toyota has completely missed the
boat on electrification where they had an early lead with the Prius.

They went after shiny unrealistic options like Fuel Cells/Hydrogen and wasted
their lead. The world would have looked very different now if they had
invested in Electric 10 years ago. Their "plug-in" electrics have 20-40 miles
of all electric range. Even Ford has vehicles with 200+ miles range.

Instead, they still have only concept vehicles and their exec VP still says
“We haven’t changed our policy towards battery EVs. We are not shifting our
focus to prioritise battery EVs, nor are we abandoning our FCV strategy.”
source: [https://ww.electrek.co/2019/06/07/toyota-electric-car-
images...](https://ww.electrek.co/2019/06/07/toyota-electric-car-images-
accelerate-plan/#)

~~~
the_duke
I find it very interesting how stubbornly Toyota is sticking to hydrogen/fuel
cells. The rest of the market seems to have accepted that the big downsides of
hydrogen based solutions (need for extensive transport + storage
infrastructure, difficult containment, horrible end to end efficiency, ...)
make batteries the better solution.

Tesla seems bound to demonstrate that even semis are already viable with
current technology, and battery research is bound to reduce price, weight and
longevity further. We may find chemistries that rely less on materials like
cobalt, nickel, copper.

Is it pride and inability to accept failure, or are there valid reasons for
this and Toyota could still emerge as a big winner?

It seems unlikely to me for personal cars.

Hydrogen seems better suited for energy storage, trains and airplanes.

~~~
bildung
_> Is it pride and inability to accept failure, or are there valid reasons for
this and Toyota could still emerge as a big winner?_

Japan (and China, Europe and other regions) are investing in hydrogren based
mobility. Japan has a bit over 100 fuel cell stations right now, and aims for
over 300 stations and 200k vehicles in 5 years. [0] Toyota is one of the
companies creating both the stations and also hydrogen based vehicles. They
also sold about 3k of their hydrogen-based Mirai cars [2].

German company Bosch only started hydrogen fuel cell production in 2019 [1].

This is all very miniscule compared to the electic cars of today, but a
hydrogen economy has a few important advantages, IMO the most important one is
that hydrogen production can occur at times when energy is in abundance, which
gets more and more important with rewewables based energy networks. Vehicles
can also be fueled just as fast as ICE vehicles today, and hydrogen has much
higher energy density than current battery technology.

From a strategic POV it makes sense for countries to look at hydrogen.

[0] [https://www.airliquide.com/magazine/energy-
transition/hydrog...](https://www.airliquide.com/magazine/energy-
transition/hydrogen-mobility-around-world-japan-germany)

[1]
[https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/01/15/business/corpor...](https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/01/15/business/corporate-
business/hydrogen-vehicles-2019-net-zero-emissions/)

[2] [https://www.hindustantimes.com/autos/toyota-nissan-honda-
amo...](https://www.hindustantimes.com/autos/toyota-nissan-honda-
among-11-automakers-pushing-for-fuel-cell-cars-in-
japan/story-9y9Z7bY7biXpSQxUfoeiPL.html)

------
rhacker
Every $1 spent on noisy technology should require a $50 investment in tinnitus
research.

------
growlist
As others have said, building the physical vehicles is a crowded space to
enter, whereas there seem to be far fewer ventures involving the enabling
infastructure (e.g. 3D spacetime routing/scheduling, monitoring, ledgering).

------
baybal2
There are already commercial air taxis and helicopter services serving <300km
market. Both are barely doing it financially.

Now think how a technical solution grossly inferior to both helicopter and a
prop plane will fare in the market.

------
lasky
Is it just me or...

Why do we need to have startup founders and car companies try their hand at
building a new experimental electric helicopter to validate whether or not the
market wants to use helicopters for ride hailing?

------
mhb
They can carry five people 150 miles at up to 200 mph on a single charge?

If that's accurate, isn't this a huge step forward for an electric vehicle?

------
srcmap
One only see a few helicopters at time in typical city skyline.

I wonder what happen if there are just 100 of them on the air at the same
time.

~~~
thelittleone
True. The sound of a single drone is enough to disrupt a nice quiet afternoon
sky, imagine 100 multi rotor, large enough to carry multiple people. Like a
swarm of giant mosquitoes constantly buzzing around.

------
neonate
[http://archive.md/7LEjj](http://archive.md/7LEjj)

------
yellow_lead
> Joby says it will manufacture prototypes at a facility in Marina,
> California, near Monterey, but plans to tap Toyota’s famous manufacturing
> prowess to build “highly reliable complex hardware at increased scale,” said
> Paul Sciarra, Joby’s executive chairman and a co-founder of Pinterest.

More glorified complexity. I would pay more to ride in something with highly
reliable simple hardware.

------
hndamien
This makes a lot of sense for Toyota. Their hydrogen fuel cells probably make
a lot more sense in this context.

~~~
ianai
How would hydrogen make more sense?

~~~
omegabravo
On a simplistic level, the energy density of hydrogen is far greater than
chemical batteries. Less weight to carry the same amount of energy.

This is more complex than I summarised, containing hydrogen effectively being
one issue.

~~~
rhinokungfu
True, Hydrogen has a far higher energy density than li-ion batteries (~150x).
But that doesn't show the entire picture. To store and use that hydrogen, you
also need a very strong tank (cause of the high pressure it has to be stored
in a vehicle) and a fuel cell stack to generate electrical energy. Taking the
example of Toyota's Mirai, the hydrogen tank weighs 90kg to just store 5kg of
Hydrogen (at 700bar). And this is despite being made of very expensive carbon
fibre. If it was made of cheaper but heavier materials like steel, it would
weigh much more. And the fuel cell in Mirai weighs 60kg just to output 114kw
(155hp). Add all this up and it is a much more even (~2x, not ~150x)
comparison with Li-ion battery (for reference Model 3 battery weighs 480kg).
And given all this, not surprising the Mirai weighs (1850kg) more than a Model
3 long range (1725kg) despite having similar range and being far less
powerful.

~~~
hndamien
Skai VTOL claims to fly for 4 hours vs battery powered Ehang which is around
30m - for a hydrogen vs battery real world comparison. So perhaps there is
some difference when these scale up. Their tank is made from stainless steel
as well, rather than carbon fibre, so it appears that there is room for
improvement there too.

[https://skai.co/hydrogen-details](https://skai.co/hydrogen-details)

