
Michelle Obama at WWDC: Bad Math Teachers Drove My Daughters Out of STEM - theodpHN
https://slashdot.org/submission/7118947/michelle-obama-at-wwdc-bad-math-teachers-drove-my-daughters-out-of-stem
======
ameister14
Not to trivialize her experience with her two daughters, but if I didn't do
something because the person that taught me the basics of it at 10 or 11 was
terrible, I would have a very small range of potential jobs.

Nobody I grew up with was taught to code in school. Most teachers were pretty
bad - Math and Science particularly; they weren't just bad at the subjects,
they were often cruel. Middle school was an awful experience for everyone, I
think.

That's not a reason not to improve things - I'd love for things to get better
for everyone.

~~~
tqkxzugoaupvwqr
Not being taught by school teachers can actually be more beneficial than being
taught badly. When nobody taints your experience with a particular subject and
you attack the problem yourself, you start neutral. It is curiosity and
discipline that drives you forward. If, on the other hand, someone taught you
the basics but did this in a terrible way, you associate negative things with
the subject. Your curiosity is curbed, you won’t pursue the subject further.

~~~
mirimir
That's how it was for me. For most of my education, the focus in math was very
practical. There were proofs in set theory and geometry, for sure. But math
was mostly about calculating.

Then, at university, the focus in math shifted to pure theory. I was lost.
Totally lost. And then I discovered engineering math, and was happy again.

So anyway, I wonder if I'd have been better off without so much practical
math.

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mpweiher
So Mrs. Obama says that her daughters had bad math teachers and so took
themselves out of STEM, and this is "what happens to girls". Hmm...so what
happened to the boys who had the same bad teachers?

~~~
crawfordcomeaux
Maybe nothing. Or maybe something. Either way, we won't find out if we
approach what she's saying without curiosity. Incredulity toward what she's
saying serves to preserve the status quo, not effect change.

[https://arstechnica.com/science/2010/01/female-teachers-
math...](https://arstechnica.com/science/2010/01/female-teachers-math-anxiety-
influences-female-students/)

[http://www.npr.org/2015/09/01/436525758/how-teachers-
unconsc...](http://www.npr.org/2015/09/01/436525758/how-teachers-unconscious-
bias-play-into-the-hands-ofgender-disparity)

~~~
mpweiher
So we need to get women out of early childhood education?

(Both referenced articles talk about female teachers, who are the vast
majority of teachers at that grade level, transmitting their anxiety about or
dislike of math to female students)

~~~
crawfordcomeaux
So we need to rethink how we teach and how we think. Like approaching a
problem of gender bias by assuming that's the only root issue, which it
obviously isn't here, since there's also the problem of bad teachers, in
general.

Here's one change you may benefit from: exclude solutions that exclude a class
of people. Otherwise, we'll need to wait for bad teachers to die out before a
solution excluding them can really take hold & that's not a possible outcome
because no system is perfect.

Edit: more specifically, we need to immediately start training teachers how to
handle their anxiety,which means we probably need to qualitatively study their
anxieties. Without shaming them or excluding them or threatening their
livelihoods.

------
solotronics
so one of the most powerful people in the US couldn't get their children good
math teachers? something doesn't add up here.

~~~
crawfordcomeaux
Weren't their children in public school?

If her children were turned off of STEM and didn't want to stick with it until
they saw cultural change, I could see the Obamas as the type of parents who'd
respect their childrens' chosen paths here.

~~~
starik36
Obama's kids were in private school. And not just any private school. The
"Harvard of private schools".

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidwell_Friends_School](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidwell_Friends_School)

~~~
crawfordcomeaux
Ah. Thanks for the correction. In any case, it's irrelevant as having power
only says power is available to be used and not whether it should be or where
it can be.

Some things are even out of the Obamas' control, like what fields their
children are drawn to or repelled from.

~~~
starik36
I agree with you. However, since Obama kids literally had the best instructors
money can buy, I am not sure how their mom can blame the teachers. The kids
probably just didn't have an aptitude for STEM.

------
crawfordcomeaux
For anyone whose skepticism was trickered (tricked into triggering) because of
the source of the message, let's think about this briefly:

1\. Teaching is hard.

2\. Teaching abstract concepts (ie. math) is often harder because not everyone
thinks the same way. (This is why rote learning in math was the standard for
so long.)

3\. Teaching abstract concepts in a gender-biased abstract composition of
fields (STEM) in a gender-biased country (USA) is harder to teach equally to
both genders.

4\. Teaching in that context to kids is hardest.

There we go...now you can forget it was an Obama making the claim and come at
me instead.

~~~
mirimir
How is STEM gender-biased?

Are you arguing for innate gender differences in abstract thought?

Or is it just that boys tend to intimidate and shut down girls?

Would gender segregation be better? My wife thinks so.

~~~
crawfordcomeaux
STEM is gender-biased because we live in a world where societies are gender-
biased. Systems theory says the bias will be visible in lower levels, so it's
safe to assume it's in teaching.

That's how you can logic it out. If you want data, go find it. Failure to do
so is work ignorance and that's OK because changing beliefs is scary and hard.

I'm arguing for humans to learn how to observe themselves and be open to
seeing the impact they have on others. And for passing special attention where
bias is present in order to properly apply whatever the appropriate anti-bias
is.

You seem to really like problems with singular problems and solutions. Maybe
looking into systems theory will help you recognize complex systems work a bit
differently?

Personally, I think the ultimate solution is for humans to learn they can
largely abandon judgment. I have some ideas on how to pull it off, so I'm
gonna go back to writing about them.

~~~
mirimir
That's a rather judgmental response, for someone who talks about learning to
"largely abandon judgment".

> STEM is gender-biased because we live in a world where societies are gender-
> biased.

Really? STEM _in practice_ is of course gender-biased. Because, as you say,
"societies are gender-biased". But what about the subjects themselves? It
seems unlikely that science, technology, engineering and mathematics are
inherently incomprehensible to women.

~~~
mpweiher
> STEM in practice is of course gender-biased

Really? Do you really mean _biased_ [1], or do you mean there are gender
differences in STEM fields, particularly as to the representation of genders
in those fields (as there are in other fields)?

Or are these two the same for you?

[1]
[http://www.dictionary.com/browse/bias](http://www.dictionary.com/browse/bias)

~~~
mirimir
I mean "biased" in both senses. There are undeniably differences in gender
distribution among various STEM and other fields. Those differences may
reflect innate gender-based differences in interest, aptitude, etc.

But even if that's the case, it's very likely that gender bias in the culture
also drives them. That gender bias affects the behavior of everyone involved
in the process (students, parents, teachers, peers, etc).

It may even be that gender bias pervades various STEM fields at a deep
structural level. That's another perspective on potential innate gender-based
differences in interest, aptitude, etc.

------
ivan_ah
I wrote a math book that helps a lot with math de-fearing. The technology is
very old-school: the printed word, but the teaching style is new. The tone is
very conversational so it feels like you're reading a really long blog post.
It's not free, but there is and extended preview here
[https://minireference.com/static/excerpts/noBSguide_v5_previ...](https://minireference.com/static/excerpts/noBSguide_v5_preview.pdf)

Basic Math. People knew some of this shit 2000 years ago. Surely any modern
teenager can learn this stuff if we give them the space of a year, good
learning resources, and a detailed "spec" of what they must know at the end of
each grade. Instead of the `stick` of failing this grade, you offer kids the
`carrot` of skipping ahead multiple grades if they pass tests on the "spec"s
for these grade levels.

Suppose students spend n years in high school and on average pass the entire
math spec in m years, where m < n (maybe m ~ n/2). Math wiz kids won't be held
back and can go on an all-you-can-math binge, while artistically inclined
youth can choose to skip math for several grades and then "catch up" during
later grades.

------
drewhanson
Perhaps the problem is that we continue to start STEM education with MATH.
I've never really liked math but I"ve worked as a software developer for over
a decade

------
rabboRubble
Doesn't surprise me... my fourth grade teacher told me was "bad at math"
because I was a girl. Gave me a great excuse to not even try. My mom is still
pissed at this teacher as of today. Took stumbling into geometry 6 years
later, where I found I had natural spacial awareness allowing me to breeze
geometric proofs and a teacher who didn't hold my prior years' bad performance
against me, to change a barely C math student into an A math student. After
this class, I realized that if I tried I could succeed.

Edit: sort of a PS, the geometry teacher also expressed surprised that I
wasn't a terrible math student. My next math teacher would see the grades from
the prior year, and I think that had a lot to do with the next successive
teacher not investing much time. I was a girl, I was clearly a shit student,
so not much reason to bother.

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devnonymous
/Meta

gawd, been literally years since I've visited /. ...and tho it still is a bit
of what it used to be, I don't think I like what it is anymore than when I
quit it around ~2009.

I can't even remember now just what the tipping point was anymore but I do
remember that the quality of conversation had gone south.

Does anyone else feel the same mix of sadness for what /. has become and a
longing for what it once was? (...and for me personally, no, HN doesn't
completely fill the gap, hence the longing)

~~~
gaius
3 words: Slashdot PT Cruiser. That was the point of no return.

------
anothercomment
This just in: "women in male-dominated fields are not more likely to switch
fields compared to their female peers in other fields"

From "Do They Stay or Do They Go? The Switching Decisions of Individuals Who
Enter Gender Atypical College Majors"

[https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-016-0583-4](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-016-0583-4)

------
anothercomment
Yeah the boys have the same bad math teachers.

------
Nomentatus
So math is easy for you and you can communicate well - you're worth a lot of
money! Do you go teach? In Finland, yes you might well - they'll pay you and
respect you to boot. But in the West, they'll starve you and force you to be a
part-time cop and social worker in classes that are too large. Bad math
teachers? If they knew math inside out and well enough to clearly explain it
even to children, they wouldn't be teachers; that would be crazy - saints are
rare. So this really boils down to the ancient problem of: "There aren't
enough saints!" Well, no... no there aren't, nor will there ever be (future
genetic re-engineering aside.)

PS - 100 years ago we spent an incredible amount on children's education and
health as a society - we forced nearly all women of genius to either teach or
become nurses. That represented a ridiculously large subsidy (on the backs of
women) for both endeavors that we've never replaced. Certainly not by dollars.
So of course there's a problem, now. Outside Finland where they pay teachers
very well, of course.

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syngrog66
bad math teachers and bad math education approaches also turn away males/boys
too. also I suspect some people just have more of an affinity for math, than
others, regardless of gender or race. let's be blind to gender and race and
just talk about improving math/STEM for everyone

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madengr
It's a farce. The Obama daughters won't go into STEM anyway, rather finance or
law/politics. (S)TEM is for Suckers who enrich those I just mentioned, or so
says this cynical, middle aged electrical engineer.

Despite both parents being engineers, my 9 YO wants to be an ophthalmologist.
The guy who runs the LASIK clinic down the street drives a "Lambo", despite
the actual LASIK being performed by a machine built by those (Suckers)TEM.

~~~
DrScump
Doesn't being a medical doctor (of whatever specialty) fall under "Science"?

~~~
madengr
Probably yes and no. An MD in NIH or some other research facility, sure. The
guy cranking through LASIK procedures, no. I'd call that the service sector.
Though it's obvious where the money is.

------
douche
What reason would the Obama daughters have for being interested in STEM? They
are royalty now, with the gates of power and prestige and celebrity opened to
them for the rest of their lives. Why put themselves through the work of a
STEM education? Pre-law is much easier.

It's an incredibly rational choice.

~~~
mquander
Your profile says you program as a hobby, so how can it be a mystery to you
why someone might be interested in something?

------
ausjke
US education needs a revamp.

1\. Establish nation-wide professional education colleges(the Normal
Universities), students graduate to be teachers, government shall fund the
colleges as much as possible, including lower tuition for students as long as
they are into teachers profession.

2\. boost pay for teachers, make teacher a proud profession socially and
financially.

Both 1 and 2 are popular in Asia countries, it's nothing revolutionary. Our
public education system here is so sub-par and good teachers are so hard to
find, all the time.

