

Life is not a conveyor belt - alex-warren
http://alexwarren.co.uk/2013/07/08/life-is-not-a-conveyor-belt/

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user24
Not quite sure what the point is... wake up sheeple?

You might see me with my degrees, career, dog, child, wife and house and think
I'm just another conveyor-belter, but hopefully one day you will realise that
every person has a unique story to tell. Even the ones who might seem boring
to you.

You don't have to make a grand gesture of differentness in your clothing,
music taste, beliefs or lifestyle to actually be different. We are all
different by our very nature.

In fact, proclaiming your differentness so loudly could be viewed as more
oppressive than seeming to 'conform' to your perceived conveyor-belt.

Life without progress is stagnant. We each choose our own path. It just
happens that there are some broad trends amongst the things humans value; like
company and security. Marriage, kids, a stable career and a house go a long
way towards satisfying those needs. And, without wishing to patronise, those
needs do become more acutely felt as you get older.

~~~
k__
Yes, if you go into detail, all people are different. But overall, most people
aren't, at least not in a way that matters.

But I have to admit, those who make the difference aren't those who "proclaim
their differentness".

~~~
PavlovsCat
_Yes, if you go into detail, all people are different. But overall, most
people aren 't, at least not in a way that matters._

That reminded me of this:

"I have expressed my strong interest in the mass of the people; and this is
founded, not on their usefulness to the community, so much as on what they are
in themselves. Indeed every man, in every condition, is great. It is only our
own diseased sight which makes him little. A man is great as a man, be he
where or what he may. The grandeur of his nature turns to insignificance all
outward distinctions."

\-- William Ellery Channing

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jasonkester
One of the strange things about being 40 is meeting people my own age who have
college-age children. It's amazing how little I have in common with people who
chose that life track.

They seem "old" to me, even though they're often several years younger than
me. As though they've lived a lot more life than me, but not the "good" parts
of life. I can't imagine how tough it must be to raise a family on an entry-
level job, and simultaneously try to progress your way out of that entry-
level-ness without the ability to ever roll the dice and not have to worry
about feeding anybody else but yourself if things don't work out. Or the
ability to put it all on hold and piss off to backpack around Southeast Asia
for a year. You can see the shadow of that still on a lot of folks like that,
even 20 years on.

It never occurred to me back then how good a decision it was not to get
married and start a family right away. Now, raising kids with 20 years worth
of leveling up behind me and the resources to do it "right", I think I'm going
to have it a lot easier.

~~~
kaybe
But, you know, you're priviledged here because you're a guy. For a woman it's
not the best idea biologically to start having kids at 40.

~~~
kabouseng
For a man aged 40 it is also not the best idea. The risks for children with
birth defects increases substantially with older men as well.

~~~
nitid_name
[Citation needed]

I was under the impression the drop off for men both progressed slower and was
less severe than it was for women.

e.g. a 40 something woman has the same chance of having offspring with Downs
Syndrome or other congenital defects as two cousins in their twenties
inbreeding, while a 80 year old man with a 20 something woman is still less at
risk than both of the aforementioned pairs.

~~~
kabouseng
As I was typing that comment I was thinking someone is going to ask me for
source :-) I dont have a citation, just the class notes from my wifes medical
undergraduate classes. Im sure if I did the effort, I could google a study or
two for you. Of course it's not just the genetics, but also a woman's ability
to carry full term. Younger bodies are better at that. Nevertheless, for
someone preoccupied with living life to the fullest, waiting till your older
to have children, and increasing the chance for a down syndrome baby is a bit
counter productive.

~~~
jasonkester
_for someone preoccupied with living life to the fullest, waiting till your
older to have children, and increasing the chance for a down syndrome baby is
a bit counter productive_

In what way? Increasing the odds from 1:1000 to 10:1000 in exchange for 20
years of carefree living seems like a pretty good tradeoff to me.

~~~
enraged_camel
How can you even know that it's a good trade off if you haven't had a Down
syndrome baby?

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noonespecial
Lots of things in life seem ordinary to the point of tediousness. Marriage,
the birth of a child, recognition on the job etc. These things happen to most
everyone at one point or another.

I'm here to tell you that these things can be quite extraordinary _when they
happen to you_.

Even if everyone in the line rides the same coaster, the plunge is still a
thrill.

~~~
silves89
Utterly extraordinary. Watching my daughter play in my friends' gardens made
me want to move out of the town and into the suburbs, so she can have space
for a paddling pool. I'll buy a bigger, duller car for her and her impending
sibling, without thinking twice about it.

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brador
It's regret limitation. You can always buy things whenever, but if you want to
see your kids grow up and not be too old to play then you NEED to have the kid
in your 30's at the latest. Once you pass that point you can never go back.

You're not gonna live forever and you will change your opinions regularly
throughout life. Using your time wisely, and investing in a solid future is
the 'safe' regret minimising strategy.

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alenox
Every person I know, in their 20's, could have written the same post as OP...
Myself included. Now they are all married with children... Myself included.

~~~
icebraining
Really? As a person in my 20s, I have a reasonable number of friends who have
plans of getting a house, spouse and children; many have had them since their
teens.

Of course, nowadays those plans are less taken for granted, considering many
can't even get jobs.

~~~
alenox
In my 20's, most of my friends and I were in one touring rock and roll band or
another. A bunch of societal malcontents, dropping out of college and trying
to do something else. Maybe that's not terribly common, but I really didn't
know many people who pined for the family life... but biological urges are
hard to fight... Not just the urge to procreate, but the urge to raise and
nurture kids. The urge to nest and create stability. It's not for everyone,
but it IS for most people. Not because of some societal constraint, but
because of biological ones. Societal constructs just helps us to fulfill those
desires more easily.

------
grownseed
_" I would love for all of those years of school to teach kids these lessons
instead: Don’t follow orders, don’t blindly copy what others are doing, and
always keep your wits about you."_

This, to me, is the essence of Education, or at least what it should be -
equip future generations with the ability to think critically, to become more
adaptable by developing themselves and their peers in the process.

In most of the countries I know of, School systems are self-fulfilling jokes.
You have teachers sandwiched between layers upon layers of administration and
the kids' parents. You have a lot of parents who've dumped all their
educational responsibilities onto the schools. You have the administrations
whose main purpose seems to be meeting stats. And after all that, you have the
kids, awkwardly categorized by age, pushed through hoops with no clear purpose
except to pass tests. This costs a tremendous amount of resources (not just
talking about money here), and for what results?

We seem to live in an age where we think everything has to be, and is worth
measuring. I believe the "Level up" system is a result of that, it makes it
much easier to assess people's worth, whatever the hell that worth may be.
Ironically (and sadly), the only way to get out of this is real Education, one
that promotes curiosity and self-growth for the sake of it (and eventually for
the greater good).

------
insuffi
I would've expected somewhat differently inclined comments from the hackernews
community.

Instead, everybody is just saying the same thing expressed in different
wording - safety.

His point is not to bypass the entire family, house aspect of your life. The
point is to not move along life as if you have no choice but to move to the
next "stage".

Progress is not moving up the stages - getting a house, getting a family, a
dog, a kid. Those are just arbitrary checkpoints defined to make you feel like
you're making something of your life. The american dream, eh? :)

Progress is to construct a life not defined by limits and boundaries. Living
it to the fullest - travel, do great big, inspirational things.

If you choose to have kids when you're 20, you are almost by definition
limiting your life only to be somebody who takes care of your kids and works a
stable job with a stable family(a stable car, a stable dog, a stable bed to
sleep in, a stable tv and a stable view of the world). In other words,
inexperienced and short-sighted.

~~~
DanBC
> If you choose to have kids when you're 20, you are almost by definition
> limiting your life only to be somebody who takes care of your kids and works
> a stable job with a stable family(a stable car, a stable dog, a stable bed
> to sleep in, a stable tv and a stable view of the world). In other words,
> inexperienced and short-sighted.

You're missing the point of children - some people experience intense joy from
raising their children.

~~~
insuffi
That may be true. A lot of people, however, choose to have kids only because
they think kids will bring joy to their life, not the other way around, which
makes for a terrible relationship dynamic.

In other words, a couple becomes bored of their stable life. They think - oh,
maybe a kid will make our lives more exciting.

------
weego
I'm not sure how applicable the key stage point is here. Children generally
have little to no exposure to the fact they are part of a key stage or how
that affects them until they get to the GCSE/A Level stage where clearly it's
impossible to not feel the exams looming. Key stages are more a strategy thing
for DfE/Local Authorities.

------
thewarrior
I think OP should take a look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs :

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs)

~~~
alex-warren
I'm aware of the hierarchy - not sure how it adds to or detracts from my post
though? Do you think we inevitably progress up the pyramid as we get older -
because I don't think age or progression up a career ladder is particularly
correlated with fulfilment of those needs.

~~~
user24
I don't understand how you can not see a correlation.

The jobs 'higher up' the ladder are generally better paid, with better
benefits and are more enjoyable.

If you're working 10 hour shifts with two kids and a tiny flat, you don't have
much time or energy left to explore self-actualisation. You are living day-to-
day, in a perpetual state of tiredness, stress and worry. The only way 'out'
is to get a better job. Then you will feel pride, confidence, etc etc - most
of the things on the hierarchy.

I can't help but think that you have never experienced poverty. That naivety
is the only way I can understand why you'd think that "progression up the
career ladder" is not correlated with fulfilment of Maslow's needs (or more
broadly, the basic ability to live your life the way you want. To live
freely.)

~~~
alex-warren
I can't spot the bit in my post where I said I knew what the answer to poverty
was - but is the only option for people in poverty really to wait for a
promotion?

For people who are not in poverty, which I presume includes most of us here
idly browsing Hacker News, do we descend down that hierarchy of needs as soon
as we step off the conveyor belt?

I think there are more paths to fulfilment than you realise.

~~~
user24
You're grasping for an alternative reality where people don't need to work.
But without a concrete suggestion it's just wishful thinking.

I think the fact that every large society on the planet ever has been based on
this model is important.

> is the only option for people in poverty really to wait for a promotion

You're overstating my position. Don't wait for an opportunity; create one. But
yes, pretty much. There is simply no responsible alternative. You can't run
off into the wilderness and fend for yourself. You have to live inside the
system we have created. It's really not that oppressive. You should try it.

> I think there are more paths to fulfilment than you realise.

I think the paths that you see as one are many.

edit:

> do we descend down that hierarchy of needs as soon as we step off the
> conveyor belt?

No, we don't. Ah I see, so what you're advocating is retirement? I think we
agree!

~~~
alex-warren
Never said people don't need to work, but they should think about the kinds of
work they want to do and the kind of life they want they lead, and creatively
consider all the opportunities that are available to them. In fact that's
pretty much all I'm saying, really.

~~~
user24
I completely agree with that.

You do seem to be pushing hard against something though. It comes off as both
arrogant and naive, and leads to misinterpretation.

For someone who's just saying "consider your options", it sure seems like you
think you're saying a lot more than that.

What, exactly, is wrong with new kitchens?

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molbioguy
Part of the problem with viewing life as a conveyor belt is that you build up
expectations of what's ahead. I think that one of the OP's points was that you
may be very disappointed (even feel a bit cheated) to learn that happiness is
not inevitable, even if you follow all the required steps. So instead, don't
just follow the steps. Question, think, break 'rules' if you have to. Make
your own choices and don't just follow the prescribed path. You won't get a
second chance.

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tome
There are infinitely many different lifestyles you can live that still involve
employment, houses, marriage and children.

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ThomPete
You can't escape the conveyor belt, whether you end up with children or you
end up alone or something completely different.

You are always part of a much bigger group than you might think. If nothing
else physics will take it's toll and you as you get older.

