
Square Canada has a Cuban coffee issue - salad77
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/square-canada-1.5303143
======
kuschku
And this is exactly why the US domination of the payment industry is so
dangerous, why companies like mastercard/VISA need to end, and why maybe
sometimes it's understandable countries like Germany or Denmark have their own
card systems or prefer cash.

Running all transactions through companies subject to foreign laws makes you
subject to those foreign laws. And there is no reason US laws should affect
e.g. a Canadian in Canada doing business in Canada with other Canadians.

The current situation is extremely unjust, because as German in Germany
interacting with other Germans, I'm suddenly subject to US laws on which I
can't even vote. Being subject to laws which I can't influence in any way
democratically is unacceptable, and needs to end.

Either we as society should go back to cash, build our own payment systems to
replace the US-based solutions, or end the US hegemony that even allows the US
to spread its laws this way.

~~~
yeldarb
Curious how you feel about GDPR (the EU asserts its authority to bind an
American entity with servers in America running a service targeted at American
consumers so long as a single EU citizen chooses to visit the site).

~~~
jpambrun
You could have one GDPR compliant site in the EU and a different international
one.. or just block EU. Nobody is infringing on someone else's sovereignty in
that case.

~~~
cpach
Some sites actually do block visitors from the EU. E.g. the Chicago Tribune.

------
Canada
They need to just give her the $14k immediately and then eat it if it's a
problem. Stop processing the transactions going forward or until it's sorted
out, but do not steal her money. Also, I found this distasteful:

"I want to clarify that Square is not experiencing a technical glitch. While I
cannot speak with you about Monica's individual case, I can tell you that
Square's Customer Success team spoke with Monica yesterday, and she now knows
the reason"

How incredibly tone deaf to use such a condescending, bullshit phrase as
"customer success team" when speaking with the media in a situation where they
are clearly failing the customer. A simple "we spoke with her" would do.

~~~
azernik
If the question is legal liability for violating sanctions, releasing the $14K
could put them on the hook for _much_ more than $14K in liability.

~~~
jpiasetz
Not releasing can put them in violation of Canada's Foreign Extraterritorial
Measures Act so they are between a rock and a hard place (particularly Foreign
Extraterritorial Measures (United States) Order, 1992 [https://laws-
lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-92-584/p...](https://laws-
lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-92-584/page-1.html))

~~~
azernik
Oh ouch.

------
faramarz
There is a bigger story here and I'm glad it's made visible to more of the
general public, and I _really_ hope more people listen intently; the
underlying technology running your favorites apps are sitting on servers on US
soil and prone to US laws.

that needs to be a title of the next headline, especially for anyone
installing apps under the disguise of "privacy".

~~~
molteanu
Yes, that was made visible by the blocking of github accounts for developers
in Iran, Syria and Crimea [1]. The US can disrupt whole businesses just by
blocking access to fundamental services, tools or equipment. That's some nice
political power right there. Free stuff is always a double-edged sword. You
can't have free Google, free Youtube, free FB, free Github, free everything
unless you also give back something. In this case, it limits the options of
Nation States where most of its citizens use these free services on a daily
basis. One wrong move, and the Government of said Nation State will have a
nice (color?!) revolution on their back.

In the end, good for US for having the brains and the determination to build
all these systems, conspicuously. I'm sure Russia does the same or is striving
to do the same. Different methods, same desired outcomes. It will be
interesting to see what China will have in store in the coming years.

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20552797](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20552797)

------
alams
US government and US payment companies like Visa and Mastercard complaining
about India building its own payment processing systems (RuPay).

Countries who depends on US and its companies for technology are very much
vulnerable to these type of bullying.

Countries need to look on bigger picture and develop self sustainable
technology ventures and US should stop bullying countries with technology to
retain the trust.

------
bch
I used to (nearly 20 years ago) roast coffee in Whitehorse, Yukon Territory
Canada, and folks from Alaska would often stop in the shop. People that bought
Cuban coffee often requested it be rebagged and just labelled “coffee” for
about the same reason.

~~~
Marsymars
Hey I just stopped in at midnight sun coffee roasters for the first time last
week. Good place.

~~~
bch
Haha! That’s the one, but I worked in the old building that was burned down
when the neighbouring business sparked a fire :(

------
bigiain
Might be just a coincidence, but it seems Square is turning it's back on the
coffee/cafge industry that it did a lot of it's brand building on the back of:

[https://sprudge.com/square-just-increased-their-
transaction-...](https://sprudge.com/square-just-increased-their-transaction-
rates-and-cafes-are-screwed-151533.html)

They've used the industry for good PR like this:
[https://squareup.com/au/en/townsquare/2018-australian-
coffee...](https://squareup.com/au/en/townsquare/2018-australian-coffee-
report)

I guess they'd prefer to not have sub $5 transactions any more...

------
bearcobra
I once bought cigars at the Duty Free on my way into the US. Spent the next 2
hours dealing with an agent who'd clearly just been transferred from the
southern boarder since the receipt said "Havana Style". I really hope the US
is able to normalize relations with Cuba some day.

------
riffic
It's beyond time to end the embargo against Cuba.

~~~
wideasleep1
And it's beyond time Cuba end it's 2 ounce coffee rations every 15 days for
Cuban citizens. That wouldn't last me 15 minutes.

per Wiki: "Domestic distribution is currently limited to two ounces of coffee
rations every 15 days for Cuban citizens.[13]

~~~
onemoresoop
They have rations to make it accessible to all, they are a poor country
crippled by a long lasting embargo. Cubans are very sweet people. Their
politics attempted to keep they away from american greedy companies. Just look
around the caraibean region. Countries that played ball with the US are in a
very bad shape, a la economic hit man and such. Cuba managed to keep the
people poor but with dignity, education, health care, for all its citizens.
They manage with what they have and they’d do much better if it wasnt for the
embargo.

I don’t get why this is being downvoted. I’d rather get a comment on why you
disagree

~~~
kemonocode
They are a poor country ravaged by a tyrannical regime that has lasted as long
as it has because Cuba is but a slight annoyance to the US after the Cuban
Missile Crisis- nothing more, nothing less. Even if there was no embargo, the
Castros would still be there doing as they wish. God knows they're trying to
do the same with Venezuela.

EDIT: None of this means I'm pro-embargo, or into US meddling into things they
have no business in. Just that ultimately these embargoes do little in the
grand scheme of things to stop dictatorial regimes. A tyrant has no reason to
play by the rules, especially when money is involved.

~~~
chungus_khan
The suggestion that this has anything to do with tyranny or dictators is
ridiculous as well. The US has a long and consistent record of supporting
hideously repressive Islamist monarchies like Saudi Arabia, and it is clear
that they do not actually care about democracy or freedom in practice.

------
PhasmaFelis
Square says it's "working on" getting Mustelier her money back. I feel like,
at this point, they ought to simply pay her out of their own pocket. They were
the ones who put her money in a bank that was not fit for purpose. Even if
they didn't realize this would happen, they've violated their obligation to
her, and they need to fix it now, not after a few more months of wrangling.

~~~
stouset
The fact that they’re “working on it” should be a strong hint that it is not
as simple as writing the merchant a check and wiping their hands of the
situation. As a US financial entity, Square is subject to the same laws and
regulations as JP Morgan, the bank holding on to the frozen funds.

~~~
tareqak
By operating in Canada, Square Canada is subject to Canadian federal law:
[https://laws-
lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-92-584/p...](https://laws-
lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-92-584/page-1.html) .

~~~
stouset
By being a US-based company, they are also subject to US law.

If you believe you have a general solution to the problem of incompatible edge
cases in international financial regulation, there are many, _many_ companies
who would be willing to make you a very rich person in exchange for that
information.

~~~
kevin_b_er
The Square Canada corporation may still be directly prosecuted for violating
the Foreign Extraterritorial Measures Act. It is designed to prevent the
United States from interfering with Canadian business.

That Square Canada has a parent corporation is immaterial. Seize assets from
the Canadian company to pay the $1.5 million fine for violating the act.

If this is unacceptable, then Square Canada is no longer a legitimate business
and Square can't have a legally operating subsidiary in Canada.

------
sova
Square should definitely set this right ASAP she's not doing anything against.
I wonder if she had named her stand Canada Beans, would this have happened?
The nerve

~~~
smnrchrds
A couple of my friends went to a restaurant together in the US. One of them
paid with card, the other friend paid the first friend back by sending him a
transfer by PayPal or Venmo, I cannot remember which. The amount was around
$10-$20. The description said _Persian restaurant_ or _Iranian restaurant_ ,
because that's the kind of restaurant they had gone to. The transfer was
blocked and the transfer amount remained in frozen state for over a year.

Ask anyone from one of the countries sanctioned by the US, like Cuba or Iran.
This kind of experience is not new and it is not an exception. I no longer get
surprised, just more and more disappointed.

~~~
WrtCdEvrydy
OFAC lists are no joke, you will go to jail for disregarding it.

~~~
mirimir
The name of an ethnic restaurant has _nothing_ to do with the corresponding
country, legally speaking. That's just a stupid software glitch.

~~~
WrtCdEvrydy
Nah, you think the guy doing this is working that hard?

~~~
mirimir
Then he ought to be fired.

~~~
WrtCdEvrydy
American workers are scared of being perceived as anything else other than a
YES MAN. The guy being told he has two-three days to implement OFAC can't say
NO or they'll find someone to replace him that will say YES so he'll implement
the shortest answer that causes that 'feature' to be marked as 'complete'

~~~
mirimir
Even a random Excel geek would know that a "name" field is not the place to go
for OFAC implementation. Or at least, not for a restaurant. I'm sure that they
can link to corporate and banking data.

~~~
nullc
It doesn't really matter what someone knows, what matters is the payoff
matrix:

Apply OFAC blacklisting extremely overly aggressively ... suffer an
insignificant number of pissed off customers (who probably don't even leave
you because everyone else is also awful).

Apply it as non-agressively as you think the law permits, or somewhat more
than that... and find out that you're facing criminal charges because a
prosecutor thinks the line was slightly different where you thought it was.

The situation is made more complicated in part because if prosecution isn't
aggressive there are enormous sums of money ready to flow through whatever
loophole exists and plenty of _bankers_ happy to help guide clients in
blacklisted places through them. [
[https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/09/business/standard-
charter...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/09/business/standard-chartered-
sanctions-violations.html) ]

------
kspaans
I believe Stripe and/or has the same issue. One of the roasters I like to buy
from in Toronto has beans from Cuba, but can't sell them online.

------
paxys
> "I was kind of shocked and mad, because we're a Canadian company using Cuban
> goods bought and sold in Canada,"

Using an American payment company and an American bank, both of which are
subject to American laws and aren't going to risk breaking a trade embargo,
regardless of whether this particular case is 100% legal or not.

Also not sure why the headline says Square Canada when the article makes it
clear that it is JPMorgan Chase which is holding up the payment.

~~~
throwaway2048
It is illegal for a Canadian company, in Canada, to be subject to or comply
with American extraterritoriality laws surrounding Cuba.

[https://laws-
lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-92-584/p...](https://laws-
lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-92-584/page-1.html)

~~~
vinay427
I think the distinction of JPMorgan being the processor that denied the
transactions is relevant here. IANAL but it's unclear to me that Square Canada
is at fault for depending on a company that happens to comply with US laws.

~~~
vkou
If my bank took my money, and ran off with it, and then blamed it on bad
behavior of some third party that I have nothing to do with, I have two things
to say:

1\. Not my problem.

2\. Fuck you, pay me.

If they can't find counter-parties that let them do their jobs, they should
not be in the business of payment processing. I don't get to pick which third
parties my bank interfaces with.

~~~
vinay427
They're working on refunding her the money. I'm not sure running off with it
is an appropriate comparison here. They just don't want to work with clients
that have a business relationship with Cuba in the future.

~~~
jpambrun
How much work does cutting a 14,000$ check requires? It been going on since
August. For a foot truck operations 14,000$ must be a significant toll on cash
flow. It's inexcusable.

~~~
vinay427
I agree, and I definitely don't want to excuse it. I would maintain that the
analogy used is inappropriate given that they're still in contact about the
money.

------
refurb
_Mustelier is Canadian and says she has no idea why a U.S. embargo is
affecting her Canadian business._

The article claims her money is going through a US bank.

Not surprised this happened at all.

~~~
tareqak
It was Square Canada’s choice to route her money through a US bank. If her
merchant account agreement has no mention of this possibility, then she is
totally in the clear.

Some other commenters have already linked the relevant Canadian law that is
broken by the stopped payment: [https://laws-
lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-92-584/p...](https://laws-
lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-92-584/page-1.html) .

------
theabsurdman
Amusingly, they literally show someone serving coffee with an endorsement from
a coffee shop on their Canadian sign-up page for food & beverage services.
[https://squareup.com/ca/en/solutions/quick-
service](https://squareup.com/ca/en/solutions/quick-service)

------
lemmox
The vendor claims to buy beans from a Canadian distributor. It's not
immediately obvious how to get from "bought beans in Montreal, sold Coffee in
Toronto" to "funds frozen for doing business with Cuba." The devil must be in
the details of the embargo.

~~~
koolba
Once something gets flagged as a potential violation, it turns into a guilty
until proven innocent situation. Square has much more to lose than just some
bad PR or the spread on $14K so they’re fine with freezing the money until
they get a clear ruling from the _US_ regulators that could put them in a
proverbially vice. The name “Havana” probably tipped off something and now
it’ll be stuck like that until a high enough exec decides to take the heat for
cutting it loose.

If you want to try this out yourself ( _don’t do this..._ ), send money to a
friend via Venmo or equivalent, put something blatantly criminal in the
description like “Heroin” or “ISIS tuition”, and see what happens.

~~~
parliament32
I've put everything from "erotic services" to "5kg of cocaine" in the memo
fields of cheques, bank transfers, and interac e-transfers and never had an
issue of any sort.

------
14
This is where it is too bad bitcoin did not become more mainstream allowing
people to just exchange money without permission. But perhaps these are the
incidences that will lead to the mainstream use of things like bitcoins.

------
kemonocode
People are all fine and dandy with the status quo until they fall on the wrong
side of a dispute involving their money.

Perhaps those cryptocurrency wackos aren't so crazy after all. Perhaps.

------
raverbashing
Somebody needs to buy Cuban coffee in Canada, repackage it with a nice
"produced in Central America/Aerated in Canada" sticker and sell it to the end
coffee stands.

