

Ask HN: I feel severely underpaid. Is it me or them? - SandSerif

I started hand-coding websites at the age of I was 10. Now I'm 22 years old working full time (40-50 hrs/week) as a web developer at a small consulting company. I make $19,200 per year, which I know is well below the average salary for a developer, even at this early stage in my career. I don't have benefits either (no employer 401k, no health insurance, etc.).<p>I'm also in college part-time, working on a BS in Computer Science. I live on my own, have zero debt, and my bills are low, but after paying tuition, I am unable to save anything.<p>They offered me the job in August 2010 at the end of my 6-month part-time (unpaid) internship with the company (which I got by calling them and asking). I took the job because it was an opportunity to do what I love full-time, and frankly, it was more than I was making previously.<p>But now I really feel stuck making so little money, and my financial goals are unattainable. I like my job for the most part, but I have only partial schooling and little professional experience under my belt. It is certainly a frustrating predicament.<p>TL;DR
I want to ask for a significant raise when I hit my 12th or 18th month of paid employment here, but I feel like I can't justify it to myself or my employer without having yet completed my degree, and with no higher-paying offers on the table. I also don't think "The average market rate for developers is significantly higher" is a sufficient argument (or is it?).<p>I would appreciate this community's advice. Thanks in advance.
======
MatthewPhillips
You're getting screwed, and probably taken advantage of. I've been there
before.

A significant raise is unlikely, especially since they're OK with dramatically
underpaying you now. It reeks of poor ethics, and companies like this think
every one is expendable (except the inner circle of management).

Don't blame the degree; I have a history degree. That stuff is only important
before you have experience. You have it. The company knows you're good, degree
or no degree. And they're still doing this to you.

You should be shopping for a new job. You're in a field where you're in high
demand. Take advantage of that and don't look back. You can get a contracting
job making 40k+ _no problem_ , and in a couple of years you can add 20k more
to that.

The disadvantage to this field is that you jump around a lot, but understand
that it's to your advantage and businesses are used to programmer turnover.

------
robflynn
I once had a job doing web development and programming when I was younger. I
was paid somewhere around $8.00/hr. When I asked for a significant raise (i.e.
$18-$20/hr) [Still not AWESOME but would have been nice for where I lived] I
was turned down and instead counter offered $8.50/hr.

I quit the job a week later and accepted a much better paying job. They ended
up hiring four people to replace me at $8.00-$10.00/hr each. (I did web
development, programming, system administration, customer support, and
technical support.) It got pretty rough. I was being asked to do overtime for
no additional pay among other things.

Their refusal to pay me something closer to what I should have been making
ended up costing them about $32-$40/hr as opposed to the $18-$20 I was asking.

Basically, it boils down to this: Don't be afraid to ask for what you feel you
deserve but also don't be afraid to take action if you don't get what you
want. I made sure that I had an offer/possibility on the table from another
company before I approached the employer regarding the raise -- just in case
they sent me packing.

I essentially felt like if I didn't move on after the insulting counter offer
that they would continue to walk all over me. I held out way too long for that
huge pay raise that was "just around the corner" "as soon as we land this
contract."

I find myself in a similar situation now, though it is my own fault. I am
consulting and business has been slow the past year or so. I'm giving it
another month and then I'm going to start sending out resumes and probably put
a hold on consulting work for a while.

~~~
Tiomaidh
I'm sorry to threadjack, but it sounds like you're exactly the person I have a
question for.

I'm currently a high school senior. Last summer, I got offered (and accepted)
a Java development job from a tiny company that's the commercial side of
research software developed at a Top-3 CS school. I work from home (or
anywhere, really), keep my own hours, and spend most of my time doing
frontend/interface-type stuff (with Swing), but my knowledge of bash and Linux
has also been immensely helpful (not just to help me do my job, but for
specific scripts/knowledge the company needs).

When I first got the job, they said, "We'll start you at minimum wage as a
sort of trial, but shortly we'll give you a raise. What is minimum wage
anyway? $9? $10?" Me: "That's fine. And it's $7.25, actually." [Note: The way
we know each other is because their daughter goes to my school. She's the one
who mentioned me when they were looking for an inexperienced coder. Before the
interview, they apparently asked her how much they should pay me. She said,
"Oh, he'll be fine with minimum wage." .....sigh....]

So I worked a few months, got good feedback from my PM, kind of thought it was
time for a raise, but was shy and didn't ask for one, and then after seven
months pulled myself together and did ask for one--reminding them that it was
promised to me, and citing the good feedback too.

They raised it up to $8.50/hr, gushed with good feedback, and said that they'd
raise it again in a few months--and if they forgot that I should remind them.
Note that this is lower than what they originally thought minimum wage was.

To be honest, I feel like someone with a CS degree could be doing the same
work at the same speed and get $20+/hr, but since I'm still pretty happy that
they took a gamble and hired a high schooler, I would've been fine with
$10-15.

But I do think it's ridiculous that I could be making more money as a waiter.
So on the one hand I want to be kind of stern with them, but on the other hand
I don't want to bite the hand that's feeding me. .....advice?

\--

For what it's worth, I am looking at other options. The Google Summer of Code
looks really appealing, but the project I wanted to work for (Mnemosyne)
didn't get accepted as a mentoring organization, so now I'm trying to see if
there's another project I'd like to do. I also might get a scholarship /
internship / job from the NSA, which would provide me with a large yearly
salary, and give me the financial freedom to drop the Java job this summer and
work on an open source project I love (and/or do something educational like
doing every exercise of SICP). But neither one of these options is guaranteed,
so I don't want to burn my bridge prematurely.

~~~
robflynn
That is pretty much the situation I was in. I was not long out of High School
(actually, I believe I started when I was 16 and thus still in HS) so I did
not really expect a huge salary or anything at the time.

However, after I graduated and began looking at going to school part time I
was looking for a little more income so that I could pay. I was also at the
age at that point that it was up to me to take care of paying for my things as
opposed to having my parents help me out.

It's been many years since that occurred, but from what I recall, I told the
owners that I wanted to talk to them when I had a moment. We set up a time an
hour or two later to get together and talk (they had been in and our of
meetings all day.) I basically just laid out all the facts, everything I did
for the company, in what ways I felt I attributed to the increasing income of
the company, and what I thought I should be making.

They listened to what I had to say and agreed that I was a huge contributer to
the company and came to me a couple hours after that with their counter offer.

At that point I didn't feel like negotiating, so I informed them politely that
I would be accepting a position at a new company.

They tried to offer me "stock" (it was a small private company that I knew
would never get sold) and that they could not offer me any more money than
what they offered a few hours before, and tried to think of ways to retain me.

I decided, however, that moving across the country to CA would be the best bet
for me to further my career.

It was actually pretty tough for me as we had grown pretty close over the
years, but I still felt like staying there would have held me back.

It sounds like you are making the right moves, however, and trying to line up
plans B and C just in case things do not go as you wish.

As far as Google Summer of Code, my old project has done GSOC for several
years now. I've been out of the loop for a few years now since I've left the
project but they're probably accepted for 2011 as well.
(<http://www.pidgin.im>). I'm not sure if you have any interest in working on
the project, but it may be worth a shot.

\--

I apologize for the delay in responding. The plumbing at my home just decided
it wanted to play a little game called "yay flood time."

Best of luck to you.

~~~
Tiomaidh
The confounding variable is that there's several factors that make this more
awkward:

* I have yet to see my PM in the flesh, haven't met with the CEO or treasurer (they're married) in a business setting since the job interview (although I do see them from time to time because of their daughter), have yet to communicate directly with the CEO (it happens through the PM...although I guess this is to be expected), and communication with the treasurer is...sparse. I email him my timesheet once a month, and I emailed him about the first raise. I also emailed him when I stupidly broke the LCD on the company laptop...but he didn't write back, so after a week I just replaced the screen myself (on my own dime (but I'm willing to take responsibility for that--it was my fault) (speaking about my own dime, I also bought a second AC adapter and working battery since I travel a fair bit...I wonder what'll happen to them when I quit and presumably turn the laptop back in)).

* I do email my PM frequently--I don't work in a vacuum--but he's absolutely not the person to talk to about HR-y kind of stuff.

* I have a very loose idea of how my work helps the company make money. There's the flagship software which I worked on over the summer, and I believe a version was custom-made and sold to the government. But there's also a utility that I've been working on this year, and for which I'm the sole developer. I've put a lot of work into it, and it has many more features and a much cleaner (and well-documented) codebase now. But I have yet to have any kind of interaction--directly or indirectly--with a (potential) customer.

* I learned indirectly that they're actually stretched rather thin financially. That shouldn't change my value as a programmer, but realistically it means that they probably wouldn't be super-enthusiastic about doubling someone's wage.

If things were a bit more--I hate this word, but I'll use it anyway--chummy,
I'd feel comfortable mentioning that I thought I was being underpaid, and if
not then how could I improve? But there's really no opportunities for
incidental conversations.

So I'm thinking my plan is to discretely line up another, better job, and then
say something to the effect of this, except more polite, "I'm very happy that
I spent last summer making programs and not cheeseburgers--thank you very much
--but Programming is Hard (tm) and something a shade above minimum wage is
inadequate. I've been offered a position at Company X which has much more
reasonable compensation, so unless you're willing to top it, this is my two
weeks' notice."

\--

Unfortunately Pidgin's not in the GSoC this year. (Isn't it in Python? That
would've been fun...oh well. Update: No, it's in C with plugins in Python (and
other languages)) Browsing the accepted organizations is a little frustrating.
I've made enterprisey software in Java. I made a 2D platformer in Python (+
PyGame). I'm almost done with a genetic algorithm that generates tic-tac-toe
AIs in Common Lisp. I fully admit that there's thousands of people who know
much much more about programming than I do, but I feel like I'm doing all
right, especially since the GSoC is aimed at students.....but I don't know
much about webdev or databases or C, and that's surprisingly limiting.

But even when I was working with Mnemosyne's application, I was thinking that
in the likely event it didn't work out, OpenOffice could be a backup. It
wasn't on the main list last time I checked, but now LibreOffice is and
despite their main tag being "C++", I can't believe that a mostly-Java project
wouldn't want a Java dev. And there's a few others that have potential too--
things just require a surprising amount of digging. (And even if I submit an
application, it won't be like it was with Mnemosyne since I didn't introduce
myself on the mailing list last month. Sigh.)

I'm sorry if that sounded whiney; this has been a frustrating month.

>I apologize for the delay in responding. The plumbing at my home just decided
it wanted to play a little game called "yay flood time."

It would be inexcusable for me to complain about a two hour turnaround time.
No need to apologize. (Heck--it took me four hours to respond to you and I
didn't even have bad plumbing! Just company over for dinner.) And that stinks
about your plumbing--I hope it got patched up quickly and that nothing
important was damaged in the flood.

>Best of luck to you.

Thanks, and also many thanks for your comments in general!

------
allanchao
Two points. First, yes you are getting screwed. I pay developers in south asia
more than you are getting paid here in the US. Please no flaming about that -
it's relevant because the cost of living is so vastly different between US and
(e.g.) India.

Second, some negotiation advice. Don't ask for a significant raise until you
have a second offer. Negotiation is all about the BATNA (google it), and from
what I've read, you don't have one. So go get one first, then negotiate.

~~~
ljf
Totally seconded. Without a batna you have nothing to lever with. Get or
figure out your batna, read up a bit about negotiating, and worst comes to the
worst, you move on, wiser and better paid.

------
chrisgoodrich
If you are an at-will employee, the power is yours and don't let your employer
convince you otherwise.

If you do quality work with integrity and know that your pay rate is below
market, then ask for the raise. If they don't give it to you or try to
convince you to the contrary, seek new employment for a closer to market rate.

You have to have the confidence in your work and skills, regardless of having
a completed degree.

I was in a very similar position where I was providing tremendous value to an
organization, but never was given enough respect to be given the official
title, pay rate or benefits that went along with my responsibilities. I
eventually left and found a position where they valued my contributions and
was paid market rate while I was still finishing my degree.

------
petervandijck
The best way to ask for a raise is: 0. Tell your boss you're severely
underpaid and ask for at least 50% more, 1. Job hunt, 2. get a much better
offer from someone else, and 3. Tell your boss you're leaving unless they can
do better.

It takes some balls. There's no real reason for your boss to pay you more if
you're doing the work at the current rate.

~~~
turar
I usually try not to stay once I've shown my intention to leave, no matter
what the counteroffer from the current place is. So, I would change it to: Ask
for a raise. If refused, find another job that pays more. Period.

edit: decided to remove a personal story for privacy reasons

~~~
petervandijck
I should have added, 4. Leave regardless of counteroffer.

------
timrobinson
"The average market rate for developers is significantly higher" is a very
strong argument.

If you quit, they've have to pay somebody else average market rate.

If you stay, and they raise your pay to match the market rate, then the
company are still no worse off: they save having to hire somebody new.

------
chrisbennet
Reality: It is almost unheard of to get a raise from 20K all the way up to
market rate. You need to move to another job.

Given your situation, I would advise creating a portfolio so your
clients/potential employers can see you work and then get a client for a short
term side job. I say "short term" because you will invariably underquote the
true cost of your first job so you don't want to lose too much. <g>

 _Never, ever (ever) try to sell yourself as being cheaper._

"I was wondering if I could work fewer hours? I like working here but I'm
going to need to take on some side jobs to so I can afford to work this one."
OR: "Would you be willing to give me a reference Bob? I need to start working
some side jobs so I can afford to work this one."

~~~
robflynn
This is a good point as well. Getting a raise from $90/hr to $100/hr isn't
THAT huge in the grand scheme of things. But getting a raise from $8.00 -
$30.00+/hr would be a tough to swallow pill for most small companies.

------
jstraszheim
Mention _one time_ to your boss that you believe you're very underpaid. Then,
don't say it again. If a raise doesn't come, start looking for a better paying
job. When you find one, put in your notice, be professional, but don't take
the counter offer. It seldom works out.

------
metachris
$19,200 per year for a 40-50 hour job? Man, you are being exploited! You are
providing much more value to the company.

As pointed out in the other comments, they will probably offer you only a
minimal raise. In your shoes, I would prepare to quit the job. If you are a
somewhat competent developer you are easily worth >50k per year.

------
hnal943
You are only worth what someone else is willing to pay you. If you feel you're
underpaid, your two options are to find someone who values your work more, or
convince your current employer that you're more valuable than he's giving you
credit for.

That said, it seems you are being _wildly_ underpaid. It would be pretty easy
for you to find another web development job and double your salary, plus
benefits. Your current boss is unlikely to double your pay, so you may still
come away underpaid even if he gives you a significant increase.

------
AngeloAnolin
You mentioned that you're already frustrated with your current situation now,
so I think it would only increase the level of your disdain if you wait for a
couple of months before asking what should be just appropriate.

If you know you're good, capable and extremely passionate, pretty much you'd
be able to secure some other gig which would at least take the _financial_
matter off your head.

But right now, given what you're making - it does would rattle you out knowing
that your financial goals are unattainable.

Good luck.

------
Mugurm
Have you considered freelancing?

If you take 4 - $5000 dollar contracts (website, app, etc) in 1 year, you've
made more then what you make now. If it takes you a full month to do each
project and a full month to get that project, you still have 4 months left
over to get creative.

------
noahc
Here is what I would do if I were you:

1\. Start Freelancing until you can live on free lancing work alone. If you
don't have time stop taking classes.

2\. Stop taking classes anyway, and start an open source project. You'll be
further ahead this way anyway.

3\. Ask for a raise now and see if they will give it to you. I would expect
they are underpaying you about 40K when you factor in the 20K + no benefits.
If you can get a 15k raise out of them you'll be doing a lot better.

4\. Go start your open source project on Github today and then come tell us
about it!

