
Is Facebook’s Massive Open Office Scaring Away Developers? - gammarator
http://calnewport.com/blog/2016/10/09/is-facebooks-massive-open-office-scaring-away-developers/
======
webvictim
I used to work at FB and the huge, open offices were one of my least favourite
parts about the job. I worked in the London office for a year and that was
actually a little better because it's smaller and generally quieter there, but
the three years that I did in the Menlo Park offices were not particularly fun
for all the reasons described. It's very difficult to concentrate when there's
constant background noise. Mercifully, all the teams I worked with were based
in the old Sun campus rather than the new warehouse style Gehry building
across the road - I'm told that the noise and general foot traffic in the new
offices was at times completely unbearable. There were a huge number of pot
plants, whiteboards and other makeshift obstacles used to try and block paths
between desks there, both to block out noise and to channel foot traffic away
from groups of people fed up with being disturbed.

The worst thing of all (in my opinion) is the fact that the open office
culture is simply accepted there as being the best thing for all concerned.
It's like a theory that cannot be challenged. The introverts basically don't
get listened to, while the extroverts can sing and dance with happiness. This
surprised me greatly because anyone who's worked at FB will tell you that it's
a hugely data-driven company - lots of people did try a great many times to
suggest that we should trial team-sized offices or at least something
different to the status quo, even providing studies and statistics to back up
their hypotheses, but the requests always fell on deaf ears. I'm not sure it
was ever taken seriously as a concern despite numerous articles like this
being linked internally and debated ad infinitum. It's a real shame, as the
company was a pretty great place to work on most other levels.

~~~
jm_l
did you mean potted plants, rather than pot plants?

~~~
Smaug123
In the UK, the phrase "pot plant" means "plant in a pot"; no cannabis implied
unless the context specifically demands it.

~~~
webvictim
Haha, thank you. My heritage is clearly given away by my phraseology :)

------
caleblloyd
I worked for a year at IBM's RTP campus. Everyone had their own dimly lit cube
with 5-foot walls, no natural daylight, and white noise playing over speakers
to drown out conversation. The depressing undertone of the office was part of
what pushed me to quit.

My team at my present job works in an open setting with 8 people in the room
and windows with natural daylight. It's quiet enough to focus but gives us the
opportunity for interaction also. I think that team-sized rooms are a good
compromise between a completely open and completely secluded workspace.

~~~
schiang
Team sized rooms are definitely the way to go. You can avoid conversation from
other teams that you don't care about. When there is a conversation in the
room, it's probably related to what you're doing so it's not necessarily
distracting you.

I worked in a room with just my team and it worked out great. We were able to
have discussions and draw stuff on white boards on the wall without
distracting anyone else. It also helped with team bonding.

~~~
geofft
That seems like a way to exacerbate Conway's law problems
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_law)
. Most of the technical debt I try to fight off is based on my team doing
something that makes sense for us based on what we're good at / what we think
other teams want, but doesn't line up with what other teams want / what they
think we can deliver; we end up essentially building abstraction layers around
other teams, and they build abstraction layers around us.

If you put everyone in a private office and default conversations to email
lists / group chat (which is the model that basically the entire open source
community uses), that's fine. If you have an open floor plan where it's easy
to wander over to another team's area, that's also fine. But making it super
easy for your own team to talk without other people hearing seems the worst of
both worlds; you have all the distraction problems of open floor plans (every
conversation concerns you), _and_ you don't get the organic conversations that
open floor plans are supposed to promote.

~~~
vonmoltke
It sounds like you are trying to compensate for a lack of systems engineering
by changing the office layout. You shouldn't be relying on serendipitously
overheard conversations for coordinating things like this.

~~~
reitanqild
I upvoted both you and parent:

On one hand I totally agree with you. On the other hand Conways law exist for
a reason.

I see no reason why this shouldn't be another case of "[...] these ought you
to have done, and not to leave the other undone."

------
erobbins
I worked at a company where there was a combination of team rooms and
offices... but all the walls were glass. You had the benefit of being able to
see if Julie was at her desk so you could go ask her a question, but not hear
Bob next door arguing with his wife again.

It was fantastic.

Now, I'm at FB... and I wouldn't work on a team in the new "warehouse"
building. It's terrible over there, frankly.

~~~
elnado
Haha I used to be at Microsoft in a building like you described: a combination
of open space with offices and break-out areas. They're trying to renovate all
their buildings to follow this hybrid approach as they did with building 16
which is just incredibly gorgeous
([https://news.microsoft.com/stories/b16/](https://news.microsoft.com/stories/b16/)).
Now I'm at a startup in the bay are that adopted the generic open-
space/warehouse design and although I'm happy with the move career-wise, I
really do miss being able to concentrate...

~~~
jpgvm
I'm fairly certain Microsoft is like the gold standard when it comes to office
spaces. I have always been super impressed when visiting any Microsoft campus.

~~~
coredog64
As I understand it, they went so far as to build office buildings that could
efficiently house as many private offices as possible. So rather than a volume
efficient cube, they would build long, thin buildings with offices around the
perimeter and shared services in the center.

~~~
adrianratnapala
So on the plus side of working for Microsoft is that you get windows in your
office. Which compensates for the minus side, which is that you get Windows in
your office.

~~~
elnado
Hahaha too true, too true. My lingering loyalty to MS obliges me to defend
this though. There were custom shells, dev tools, and compilers for almost
every major project combined with Visual Studio and C-family languages (which
is an extremely overpowered editor btw - I mean you can even do 3D editing
with it, proof: [https://channel9.msdn.com/posts/Visual-
Studio-3D-StarterKit](https://channel9.msdn.com/posts/Visual-
Studio-3D-StarterKit)) so, to be honest you didn't really miss Linux/Mac OS X
that much.

------
DougN7
Open offices were developed by people who don't have to really concentrate for
their job. They're awful for developers.

~~~
fatlasp
I always thought open offices became popular because it was literally the
cheapest set up for facilities. For startups it worked because all you had to
buy was desks. Somehow that got spun in to 'open offices are so sexy!'

Open offices are horrible for productivity imo. Moved to a job with an office
and it is so. much. better.

~~~
throwaway2016a
That's why we have them... we literally can't afford to give everyone (or
anyone for that matter) a private office.

~~~
st3v3r
I don't buy that for a second. With what gets spent on salaries, the cost of
offices is a drop in the bucket.

~~~
greenyoda
Also, if people in private offices are more productive, you can hire fewer
people to do the same work, saving lots of money.

------
irrational
When my company moved to an open office plan we, the developers, tried to
argue that we needed the ability to concentrate and that this would hinder
that. We were told that every job required concentration and that we shouldn't
be such prima donnas who think we are special snowflakes. Someday I'm going to
get a special snowglobe and shove it down the throat of the sales lady who
sits next to me who holds conference calls all day long from her desk.

Unfortunately I love everything else about my job so I'm disinclined to move
on.

~~~
gnashville
Seems your wrath is better aimed at those who implemented an open floor plan,
not the lady doing her job.

~~~
irrational
Well, I'd never be able to find the people who implemented the open floor
plan. That's one of the problems with huge companies - the guilty are to often
anonymous ;-)

The problem with the sales person is that there are room set aside for making
phone calls (whether personal or business) and there are always some
available, but apparently that is entirely too unreasonable to expect someone
with a laptop to go find a room instead of letting everyone in a 30 foot
radius listen in on the call.

~~~
ryandrake
Have you asked her?

~~~
irrational
Yes. She doesn't care.

~~~
largote
Escalate to your manager, he should have a chat with her manager.

~~~
irrational
It's not that simple. She has been around a long time and even though she
isn't a manager, seniority goes a long way at my company. My manager has
mentioned it to her, but realistically that's as far as he can take it.

~~~
effie
Ask for a place farther from her, perhaps switching with some other talkative
colleague in a better spot. If manager rises eyebrows, argue that she is too
loud and inconsiderate(unscrupulous) to other people. Even better if more
colleagues share this view, make a move together.

------
fecak
As the moderator of a Reddit sub focused on comp sci careers, I don't think
the open office is an issue for junior level developers. The worship of what
we in that sub call the big 4 (some combo of Google, Facebook, Apple (or
Microsoft), Amazon) is pretty much what you hear from every college senior,
and I've never heard anyone even mention this as a negative.

Of course these are mostly people who haven't had much experience working in
office environments except possibly an internship or part-time work. Facebook
might face some challenges recruiting experienced devs who know what kind of
environment suits them, but anecdotally I don't see it at the junior level.

~~~
cbhl
I'm under the impression that Microsoft was The One Company of the big five
that still gives its employees offices with doors.

~~~
daok
Microsoft's buildings are converting one after the other ones into open
office. About 8 to 12 people per office.

~~~
dragonwriter
That seems more team-space than open office (lots of people see that as a sort
of a "happy medium" between real open office and everyone-has-a-private-office
that allows team to collaborate more effectively than the latter but provides
less extraneous distraction than the latter; not sure I share this assessment,
but I definitely see it as a distinct thing from either alternative.)

------
fsloth
Is there anyone here who likes open offices more than a floorplan divised into
smaller rooms? I ask because I've worked in an open office setting as a
developer for years (the place is otherwise nice) and thoroughly despise it as
a workspace. Yet some people don't seem to mind it. I don't mind serendipity.
The problem is I serendiptously overhear everyones discussion which is
incredibly disruptive for deep work.

Factories have huge machines, whih create added value. They have a good reason
for loud noises and need for ear protection.

Offices, on the other hand, are places where people come to create added value
by mostly by thinking (if they are programmers).

Are there people who enjoy the bustle of open office while trying to untangle
a decade old piece of C++ spaghetti? Whose work output it actually improves?

I'm trying to figure out if the open offices are bad mostly for everyone or
just for someone like me.

~~~
thurn
I prefer open offices. You get a pretty significant echo chamber effect on
articles like this because people who don't like it turn out to comment.

Personally, I have no difficulty with noise (I prefer working in coffee shops
to at home), and being able to easily start a design discussion with 4 or 5
engineers when necessary is extremely valuable. I totally get why some people
don't like it though.

~~~
ptomato
> easily start a design discussion with 4 or 5 engineers

or, rephrased, the ability to destroy 3 man-hours of productivity on a whim.

~~~
cousin_it
That depends on the person. I like when other people come to my desk and ask
me for help on a whim, even when I'm in the middle of something. It doesn't
destroy my productivity, and often it even gives me ideas how to make my work
more useful. I do respect when other people don't want to be interrupted,
though.

~~~
TylerH
If you stop what you are doing then, by definition, it is breaking your
workflow and stopping your productivity.

~~~
GlennS
I usually take it as an opportunity to get some suggestions on whatever I was
working on when they stopped me.

------
jondubois
I don't like open offices. Sometimes they can be downright harmful though I
can deal with them if I'm sitting with my back to the wall.

Many years ago, when I was fresh out of uni, I lost my job because of an open
office; I was sitting relatively close to a bathroom and people kept walking
past behind me - After 1 week this made me feel stressed and paranoid and I
couldn't concentrate.

One month in, the boss asked me into his office and basically told me that I
was unproductive and that "I'm going to have to cut you loose" \- Being young,
I thought there was something wrong with me but after working in several other
companies, I learned the importance of the workplace environment.

If I ever get into a situation where I had to work with my back facing a large
empty room again, I would start looking for a new job straight away. I feel
shivers just thinking about it...

~~~
Melchizedek
Oh but your psychological wellbeing means nothing to the dimwit who loves open
offices and thinks he can still do "deep work" (most likely trivial crap like
stitching together some libraries to make the front end of a CRUD application)
while spending half the day disturbing others with endless non productive talk
("team work").

Or even worse, someone whose job is to talk on the phone and _use_ the stupid
CRUD app, and who has never done anything cognitively demanding in their
entire life, literally.

~~~
kinkrtyavimoodh
What's the point of this needlessly incendiary tone?

People can have opinions differing from yours while still doing 'deep work' of
a nature that you'd find respectable.

Jeez.

------
colordrops
While this may affect a developer's decision to work at Facebook, my first
thought is that Joel is ignoring the gorilla in the room. The number one
reason that people don't want to work at Facebook is their product and
mission. As someone in the comments mentioned, SpaceX has very tight and open
cubicles, but people there are paid _below_ market rates, and they are doing
_very_ deep work, so Joel's argument doesn't hold water in all cases.

~~~
zachrose
Why are SpaceX employees payed below market rates?

~~~
gjolund
Because they want to work there.

------
zerognowl
This Is Why You Shouldn't Interrupt a Programmer:

[http://heeris.id.au/2013/this-is-why-you-shouldnt-
interrupt-...](http://heeris.id.au/2013/this-is-why-you-shouldnt-interrupt-a-
programmer/)

~~~
jarsin
Most dev's don't go back to step 1 when interrupted. They go to checking out
hacker news :)

~~~
prodigal_erik
It's very hard to go back to step 1 when you can't reasonably hope to get
something done before the next interruption.

------
QuantumRoar
It's also very easy to "accidentally" put more people into a very large room
than it would be allowed by working regulations. There's at least one large
Silicon Valley company who likes to do that. The working conditions can be
quite miserable.

You can call it an open office that amplifies communication in the team, so
noone will notice that they're almost piling up vertically. And the problem is
not just noise. Too many people breathing the same air leads to rising carbon
dioxide levels which makes concentrating quite hard. Unless the office was
literally built for large crowds, the ventilation will usually be insufficient
to cool the office in summer and to provide adequate levels of air flow.

I stopped calling those things "open offices" and use the term "laying
battery" instead.

~~~
prodigal_erik
Would that be the one who started putting interns in half-cubes in hallways?
Where the biggest buildings might not be complying with the fire code?

~~~
QuantumRoar
No, I'm talking about something else which is actually a bit worse...

------
renaudg
_Facebook is paying 40-50 percent more than other places, which is usually a
sign developers don’t want to work there._

More likely a sign of a high hiring bar and corresponding paycheck.

~~~
jsprogrammer
Simple supply and demand analysis shows that goods command higher prices when
supply is lower.

~~~
renaudg
And indeed the supply of good engineers is low. If Facebook insists on hiring
only them, then it makes sense that they're paying more on average.

~~~
gertef
we're using made-up numbers here, but, 10% ought to be enough of a premium to
recruit the best devs, all else being equal about the jobs.

~~~
chris11
Better devs should have better options than less skilled developers, so if you
have a high hiring bar you will be dealing with competitors trying to get
those same employees. I don't think 10% over a standard offer would cover a
competitors offer.

------
yumaikas
As an anecdatum, I am disinterested in Facebook because of that large open
office. I currently have my own office, and like that very much. It will be
interesting to see where this all goes.

~~~
loeg
> As an anecdatum, I am disinterested in Facebook because of that large open
> office.

Me too.

------
United857
(Disclosure: FB employee)

Most of the problems about overhearing conversations, etc, can be dealt with
by a nice pair of headphones. Here, it's universally accepted as the 'do not
disturb' signal.

~~~
boardwaalk
If the employer provides super comfortable noise-cancelling headphones I would
agree.

Personally, listening to music all day gives me a headache and podcasts are
too distracting. And I don't need these headphones for anything else
(otherwise, I'd already have a pair!)

I wonder what would come of it if I requested some.

~~~
webvictim
It's a total first world problem, but none of the headphones that FB provides
in the vending machines are actually noise cancelling. There are Sennheiser HD
280s (huge over-ear headphones, quite comfortable, good sound quality and do
deaden surrounding noise a little), Apple Earbuds (meh) and a seemingly
easily-breakable Klipsch in-ear set that I can't remember the model number of.

The headphones are very reasonable for what they do (and of course, they're
free to you, so even better) but in terms of actual noise cancelling you'd
have to buy your own. Of course, FB pays developers well so spending $300 on a
set of Bose QCs is no problem at all, but a lot of people don't bother or see
the point when there are free sets in the vending machines.

~~~
largote
Active noise cancelling is far better at drowning out constant background
noise than changing sounds like conversations.

~~~
dx034
Passive noise cancelling works well, a lot of studio headphones are designed
for that. And they're often cheaper than active noise cancelling.

------
evanelias
For me, density and team layout makes a big impact between a good open plan
space and a horrible one.

I worked for FB in NYC, and found that when visiting Menlo Park hq, the open
plan there didn't bother me at all -- if anything, I was actually way more
productive there. The density at MPK was low enough that the noise/distraction
level was minimal, and all of the surrounding teams were working on similar
parts of the stack. I've previously been skeptical of open plan, but this
setup was really ideal for collaboration. (that said, this was one of the
older formerly-Sun buildings; I never experienced the new, larger, more open
building.)

But meanwhile in NYC, the density was much much higher, and team layout
totally random, to the extent that I left the company for these reasons alone.
It was impossible to concentrate without wearing noise-cancelling headphones,
but I couldn't wear those for 9+ hours a day without getting a migraine.

It was frustrating since I otherwise liked my job, loved my team, loved the
technical challenges. Space-wise, it looks like things are finally much better
in the NYC office these days, but I'm still very hesitant to consider
returning to the company after my previous experiences.

~~~
kangax
I'm at FB office in NYC and I agree with your points. MPK always has that more
chill vibe and is less dense/quieter. The NY office has gotten much better
though. Many engineers are now on 15th floor which has no distractions like
help desk and is generally surprisingly quiet. I notice myself working in
almost complete silence among many people around and only once in a while put
my headphones on. Sucks to hear about your experience.

~~~
chris11
Do you have to listen to music or have noise cancelling on the entire day to
get that silence?

------
dilap
An open office wouldn't be so bad if library-like codes of silence were
enforced.

~~~
QuercusMax
Where I work (at Google), it's generally pretty quiet; you'll occasionally
have conversations going on, but most of the time all you hear is typing. It's
not quite "library-like", but making phone calls at your desk is very strongly
frowned upon.

At my last company, we generally had 1-2 person offices; it was very easy to
stay in your office all day long and never interact with other developers.
With the open plan here, we're much more likely to have impromptu team
conversations.

I think it would be better if we were in separate rooms in groups of 8-10, but
open offices definitely are not all negative. When I work from home I miss the
human interaction.

~~~
Consultant32452
Did you not have a team chat application in your 1-2 person offices? In my
experience that has always provided an excellent balance between distraction
and isolation.

~~~
QuercusMax
Sure, it helps to some degree, but can also be very distracting in its own
right. Being able to turn to the person next to you or behind you and ask a
question is very different from pinging somebody over IM / IRC / etc.

------
guelo
Developers also hate Facebook's mission and the overpriced shithole location.

~~~
ng12
Menlo Park is a shit hole? Compared to what?

~~~
prodigal_erik
That land was gerrymandered into Menlo Park despite being miles away on the
wrong side of the East Palo Alto ghetto.

~~~
bduerst
EPA is shitty, but the FB campus is right on the bay and not in EPA. The only
shitty thing about it is that you have to deal with the Dumbarton bridge
traffic, which is good or bad depending on which side of the bay you live on.

------
kol
At my company they are changing open offices to open offices with _shared
desks_. At least if you cannot stand it, you are allowed to work from home.
Cheap, cheaper, cheapest -- for the company.

The fun part is when starry eyed managers are talking about this "upgrade",
and call it "Future Work" project as if it was something great and innovative.

As Joel said, if you want to sell something, "take the most unfortunate truth
about it, turn it upside down, and drill that lie home".
[http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000054.html](http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000054.html)

------
adamnemecek
Yet there are still people defending the "open office meme".

------
muse900
I find that home is the most productive place for a developer. (At least for
me)

Open spaces do have a lot of distractions.

------
aluminussoma
My personal anecdote: The main reason I never consider interviewing at
Facebook is because of their office layout. I politely decline their requests
to chat. And that's totally their choice to make. Maybe it works for them, but
I know it doesn't work for me.

------
JTenerife
A couple of years ago I was working at a car company in Melbourne (Holden).
They also had a huge open plan. But it was devided into smaller areas and
ultimately 4-work-place-cubicles by about 1.2 m tall noise reducing movable
walls. Also, they had meeting rooms and facilities to devide the huge floor.

Noise and distraction was quite effectivly reduced but communication was
supported.

------
bogomipz
"He’s also one of the first Silicon Valley insiders to publicly and directly
endorse the importance of deep work over the fuzzier values of connection and
serendipity."

Isn't Joel and all of his enterprises based in New York City? am I wrong in
thinking Silicon Valley insiders live and/or work in Silicon Valley?

------
lazzlazzlazz
I work in an open office, and have been to Facebook's open office campus many
times. I love working in an open office, and think Facebook's campus looks
excellent.

I think the disadvantages of open offices are radically exaggerated by people
who have difficulty imagining how easy it is to book a small conference room
for yourself for a few hours, to walk away to a hotel desk in a more quiet
part of the office, or (more typically) for the white noise of the central air
to obscure everyone's mild sounds as they quietly work.

I chronically had focus issues growing up and was easily distracted, and I
have no problem focusing at work in an open office - even when it's crowded
with people.

~~~
mrweasel
Some countries mandate, for good reason, that you can't work on you laptop,
without an external monitor, mouse and keyboard, when not on the road. Plus
you're desk is require to be height adjustable. That sort of eliminate the
option of moving around to much.

Personally I feel that a persons desk is the place where they're suppose to be
doing the majority of their work, so that should be the quite area. The noise
people can book a conference room for phone calls.

One thing I find fascinating is that all the people I've meet that claimed to
love open offices, or require background noise, all, every single one, have
had head phones glued to their head. At my last job I asked if we could not
have the radio on: Nope, people like the background noise, and I was just
being difficult. The next week I asked again, adding that the people wanting
the noise where wearing head phones anyway, or where rarely in the office. So
the radio was turned off.

~~~
jrs95
What good reason is that? To me that seems a bit intrusive.

I'm also curious as to which countries require this.

~~~
aedron
All Scandinavian countries have these rules, FWIW.

Height adjustable desk is nice-to-have rather than essential (would hate to go
without it though, since it allows me to stand while working once in a while).

But external monitor should rightfully be mandated by law, IMO. Looking down,
even slightly, puts a lot of strain on your neck muscles and can easily cause
injury over the longer term. Your head and neck is like a bowling ball
balancing on a pencil - fine when it it right on top, but dangerously heavy if
tilted slightly off center.

------
rajeshp1986
The big problem with open office plan is that when people form groups and
talk, it becomes distraction for everyone else. You cannot expect that people
always move out of the working area to have small discussions. I was working
in an office where we had an open office. My team only had 3 people. We were
made sit next to design team where designers formed a group and had lengthy
discussions about UX. I newly joined this place and it was impossible for me
to raise a voice and tell them to keep their voices low. I tried to tell them
to keep their voices low but their job demanded having discussions over a
topic. As a result of this I avoided writing code during office hours and only
focussed on replying emails, discussions. I used to spend my important office
time doing trivial tasks and browsing web and only did coding after office
hours. This obviously resulted in more unhappiness over a long period of time.
This also became my habit now and I can no longer focus on coding especially
when I am in office because of distractions. I am only able to write code in
alone after office hours at my home/office.

------
tdaltonc
So what companies have gold standard developer offices?

~~~
loeg
Microsoft.

~~~
dannyr
Intel. [https://youtu.be/sZmos0GSCWE](https://youtu.be/sZmos0GSCWE)

~~~
taurath
Its the definition of dreary/depression, but perfect for concentration.

There's so much room in the middle - theres no reason you can't have nice
offices, or even nice cubicles, or mixed spaces depending on the job type or
even personal preferences.

It seems though that the only "acceptable" option outside of lifeless cube
farms is open offices for some reason - I have no idea why.

------
Analemma_
I'm just a single data point, but... it absolutely did for me. Granted I
wasn't (and still am not) looking for a new job, but I used to have the
impression that Facebook was a really developer-friendly place, and had it on
my mental list of places I might want to look at if I jumped ship - and then I
saw the pictures of that new airplane hangar workspace. Nope nope nope. Never
ever.

------
otakucode
It is unquestionably destroying productivity. Of that there can be absolutely
not one shred of doubt. There are literally over a THOUSAND studies showing
that open floor plan offices absolutely massacre productivity, especially in
any form of mental work. It is patently insane that so many smart people just
spit in the face of mountains and mountains of legitimate research.

------
leovonl
I guess the main point is balance - not everybody agrees about the exact point
where it is, but everybody agrees the extremes are bad.

An isolated room in a corner is not good - though it may be useful for
"development sprints". An "auditorium" shared between sales, development,
marketing, and sometimes even support - people which talk on the phone all the
time - is terrible.

Best productivity I ever achieved was during a time I shared a room with 2 co-
workers that shared similar knowledge but worked in slightly different areas
of the product line, and one was not even working in the same project as me.
So we did exchange ideas, but each one was doing each one's part of the
equation independently.

I considered some other opportunities before joining my current employer, and
some of them were discarded due to (among other reasons) the huge open offices
with 30-40+ employees on the same floor.

~~~
serge2k
> An isolated room in a corner is not good

Sure it is. It's called an office. Traditionally the corner ones are bigger
and are given to management/execs.

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joeevans1000
The only reason the whole open office thing came about is that it's
exceedingly easier to manage building planning. However, adults want their own
office... not a huge room, not a team room, not a cubicle.

Make no mistake: this was an outcome of the effort to save money by not having
to provide real offices to real adults.

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erikb
In the big universities in Berlin you have class rooms where everybody
focusses (or is supposed to) on one topic, small side rooms for team meetings
and project work, libraries for silent study (even sneezing is looked bad
upon). That in my eyes is the best way for a big organization to provide
rooms. People can choose one according to their current needs.

If everybody is doing project work in a big hall that's aweful and pretty much
nothing gets done.

The best I found is working from home with people who are annoying chatters
via skype/slack/IRC/jabber. Overspamming is a little necessary since you don't
see each other face to face all the time. But if you have such people you can
pretty much whenever you feel like it, sleep when you feel like, you don't
need to wear trousers, and achieve a lot more than in a big office.

------
tn13
I have visited Facebook's warehouse pretty often and it has always intimidated
me. It has a feel of a crowded airport waiting room.

I remember reading in "Peopleware" that science says privacy is good for
productivity and people tend to perform better in their cabins. Isnt this open
office a bit unnerving ?

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MaysonL
When you're spending ~$10-20K/month on a developer (including benefits)
spending an extra 1-2K/month in rent to allow them to be productive as opposed
to killing their productivity by cramming them into an open-plan office seems
that it would be a nobrainer.

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bicx
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this blog post doesn't actually seem to answer
the question. I'm curious if Facebook really is having difficulty recruiting
developers due to this specific issue and if the 40-50% pay offering really
has anything to do with that.

~~~
mmuro
Betteridge's law of headlines: "Any headline that ends in a question mark can
be answered by the word no."

~~~
harryjo
It's not true in this case, though. People who have the power to choose, are
voting with their feet.

Still, many people have short term thinking or knowledge (better to get higher
pay now than realize it will hold back by career trajectory), or they aren't
too worried about success of their company or their productivity level.

------
amelius
You can always buy a "private office pod", [1].

[1] [https://www.wired.com/2015/04/private-office-pod-thatll-
help...](https://www.wired.com/2015/04/private-office-pod-thatll-help-find-
work-flow/)

------
diego_moita
We've been hearing this "private rooms to better concentrate" argument since
at least 1987, when Tom DeMarco wrote Peopleware. The cublicle culture didn't
change since then. It won't change soon. Managers don't want to learn it.

------
jmspring
I recall during my first visit to HP Labs as a grad student. Walking into the
office off of Page Mill Road, passing reception and being on an elevated
platform looking over a sea of cubes. Creeped me out.

I've worked at places with cubes and bullpens, open offices with a mix of
engineering and sales (sucked), open offices that were poorly designed
(sucked), and now I work at home full time (unless traveling or at a coffee
shop).

I much prefer having the freedom to pick the level of noise I subject myself
to. Open offices were generally annoying because you became anti-social
anyways by putting in headphones.

------
dleslie
Working from home is the only way I could manage to have a private office. The
problem with this debate is that there isn't much room for middle ground;
those that advocate open spaces tend to also believe I the necessity for open
spaces to inspire productivity, despite little to no evidence to support this
claim, and without full team commitment to open spaces it will result in a
communication bifurcation as those in the open space will opt for vocal to
their immediate vicinity as often as they use team chart services or knock on
an office door.

------
languagehacker
The only things I've heard about Facebook's office, from Facebook employees,
is the constant, ongoing battle to keep people from playing noisy games during
work hours.

The ping pong table has become a battleground.

~~~
webvictim
I used to work there and my team was unfortunate enough to get relocated to a
set of desks near a ping pong table during a floor reshuffle. It was noisy,
infuriating and a huge distraction. The ping pong noise itself was nothing
compared to the shouting, cheering and the noise of the ball inevitably
bouncing away across the floor with someone running after it every 30 seconds.

A colleague put in a facilities ticket on the morning of the second day we
were there to get the table relocated. Facilities couldn't find anywhere else
to put it (because it would've meant simply disrupting someone else's area)
and so the table was removed and put into storage. This caused a huge outcry
from the ping pong players, but did have the upside of allowing us as
developers to do our jobs.

I saw the whole situation as quite ridiculous, given that we were all at work
in a company office and getting paid to code rather than to play ping pong.
The counter-argument was that the removal of a ping pong table was the thin
end of the wedge and the sign that FB was slowly becoming corporate and losing
its hacker soul. I guess I can see the point, but the reality is that ping
pong is a brilliant game until you have to sit near the table and try to work.

~~~
gjolund
"Losing its hacker soul"

Ugh, FB never had a "hacker soul". It is an abomination built on advertising
and privacy invasion. It is the antithesis of the hacker ethos.

------
guan
It’s pretty clear that different people like different types of workspaces.
Why can’t a large company offer variety? Big open offices, rooms with 10-15
people, small team offices, and individual offices.

------
gremlinsinc
I think it'd be cool to have sound proof all encompassing glass /plexiglass
cubicles with the glass doubling as a screen for communications so you can let
in communications with select people, or even use it as a large monitor,
etc... but still ahve the peace/quiet needed to code..alternative to that
would be noise cancelling headphones and no monitors --instead you where VR
that lets you use/resize move monitors anywhere in visible space... But still
ahve an open office when you take off the headset/headphones.

------
pmontra
I remember the VR video from FB a few days ago. There were a few seconds of
broadcast from a camera in the FB office and I thought that the ceiling was
more like the one of a factory than the one of an office. Not very inviting.
Even the rest of the place looked like a warehouse, colors included. A few
seconds later the broadcast moved to a camera in the living room of
Zuckerberg's house. That was a much more pleasant place to work at. It was
only a matter of space and colors, not about furniture.

------
pkaye
For most of my career I worked at companies with full size cubicles and was
okay with it. My current employer started with an open office structure. We
are a fairly small group of developers so things were not so noisy and it was
easier to communicate. But then I am getting old now and taking daily
medicines for chronic issues. It was hard getting the privacy to take my
medicines. We've now switched to full cubicles with the front at half height
so this is a better blend of openness and privacy.

------
adrianratnapala
My guess is the answer is "no, it doesn't scare many off".

I didn't know about the Facebook open-plan office, but I just went through the
interview process for a similarly well known company, and everything saw at
the interviews and on videos of their offices was the opposite of good.

But it never occurred to me to shy away from the job because of that.

I am sure they know these offices are bad for productivity, but for some
reason they like to buy expensive real-estate, the inefficiency is paid for by
the savings on rent.

------
geff82
I think the perfect office has 5-8 occupants that work on related/the same
subject. That way, you can still communicate if needed, still have calm times
where you can concentrate and don't have to fear you have so sit in a 2-3
people office where there is a certain possibility you don't like the other
1-2 and thus don't like coming to work. I had everything from 2 to hundreds of
colleagues at an office, but I liked going to work best when the office was
occupied by 5-8.

------
rwmj
I noticed from that VR video that Zuckerberg gives himself a large, glass-
enclosed office, while everyone outside appeared to be working at rows of
desks.

~~~
pushtheenvelope
that's his meeting room. its enclosed (like all meeting rooms are) so that
discussions there don't disturb other employees whose desks are nearby.

He has a dedicated desk nearby like everyone else.

------
rororororo
I worked both in extremely quite places (management consulting) with "fish
tank" rooms and in extremely loud places (startups) in open offices. I tried
using sound blocking apps (brown noise) to mask the background noise but it's
not just the noise, it's people coming and going.

I think I am much more productive in quiet places. Does anyone really prefer
to work in loud environments?

------
jahaja
I'm surprised that comments seem to focus so much on the impact on
productivity but not the impact on workers' health.

~~~
borplk
Come to think about it, wow you are right.

As a huge introvert I noticed my mental health very visibly improved after I
quit my regular office job to work from the comfort and peace of my home.

I think I had a bit of a case of Stockholm Syndrome at the time thinking that
I'm going to get lonely or miss coming in to an office and seeing coworkers
and so on. Not one bit. I feel like an adult and an independent human again
after so long.

The routine and the lack of genuine choice had started to make me feel like a
child.

------
simonsarris
Interviewers should ask for their interviews to be held in the location that
they'd be working day to day.

~~~
fasouto
+1 to this, I always ask during the interview.

We should be asking for more money when the company offer an open space. This
could stop the trend.

------
Consultant32452
There's an over-representation of autistics in engineering firms. These
crowded noisy spaces can be absolutely maddening for people on the spectrum. I
wonder if there's room to get the Americans with Disabilities Act applied to
autistic people so they can get quiet workplaces.

------
kristianp
"Facebook is paying 40-50 percent more than other places, which is usually a
sign developers don’t want to work there."

The logic here is pretty weak. Fb pays more for other reasons. I've not heard
that people don't want to work for Facebook before, quite the opposite in
fact.

------
bluthru
>Facebook is paying 40-50 percent more than other places, which is usually a
sign developers don’t want to work there

It's amazing how this isn't considered when companies are seemingly only
looking at the initial cost of buildings.

------
seangrogg
A bunch of people seem to like it. A bunch of people seem to dislike it. It's
almost like people are interested in a multitude of things and what appeals to
one may not appeal to another. Huh, who knew?

------
dharma1
I also work in an open office, and really don't like it.

I find the best way to work is in a quiet room (no loud AC) with 2-3 people
working on the same thing, with regular breaks.

------
woah
I don't mind open offices in the slightest. I wouldn't even know it was an
issue for people if there wasn't so much complaining on the internet.

------
throwaway2016a
Anyone got a photo of this office? It sounds spectacular. Not saying it's
effective, just saying it sounds visually impressive and awe inspiring.

------
bastijn
TL;DR \- open offices might increase the frequency you bump into people and
thus interaction, but that was never a real issue in the first place.

\- open offices are less productive as a whole due to the increased noise
levels and the increased number of coffee machine talks all over the working
floor.

\- privacy is gone. On the plus side this is forcing people to work. On the
downside this also reduces job satisfaction for many.

\- one large room makes you no longer be able to regulate temperature, lights,
and that sort of stuff. Less control on your environment. Some people like hot
rooms, others like fresh air in winter.

From what I observed open offices sure can be fun. A bit too much even.
Usually you meet people at the coffee machine if you weren't directly walking
up to them. You usually spend a coffee for some smalltalk, just because it's
fun and you were walking around anyway to clear your mind. In an open office
it's like fulltime coffee time. There are always people having fun stories
from past weekend, last holiday, or just beer time. Sure you know a few and
pop in more frequently than you would have in coffee machine talks at the
coffee machine. This is not a downside for you personally, you might perceive
it as fun, but it kills your output.

A lot of reactions in favor of open offices mention it's ability to quickly
get a hold of someone. I never understand why the ability to quickly ask
colleagues anything is a pro for open offices. I have worked in both and to be
honest there is no difference in time it takes to reach out to a colleague. If
they are in my room, the people you typically need most, it's the same as an
open office. If they aren't, it's one walk away. The distance doesn't chance
that much. Get out of your chair, visit coffee machine on the way, and walk
into the room of the person you need. Pros might want to check the chat
status, if green he's at his desk.

I'd say if you think you need to schedule a meeting for every question there
is something else wrong, an open office is not going to help you there. Also,
if you need a meeting now you will need it in the open office as well. Only on
paper these two environments have different protocols when it comes to human
interaction.

Noisy. Well, enough is said about this. I don't mind too much but others do.

Control on your environment is something I really missed. Everything is set to
general population. The heating is average but I really like fresh air even in
winter. The great perk of a company for me is always to have a heater and open
the window ( :) ). There are plenty who like warmer rooms though and after a
couple of months, or years, you learn to not take the same room. No offense
but either party agrees on the different preferences. Same holds for light.
Some people close all sun screens the moment the sun peeks in. I personally
like the sun and only close stuff when it's directly on my screen. With large
rooms it's always in someone's screen and the sun screens are always down. I
have had a summer where basically they were down all day.

I think ideally you need a mix. I'd say the only thing in favor of open
offices is the increased interaction. If you accept less productivity in favor
of potential great ideas spawned in that one case where two people bumped into
each other at the right time than by all means make it happen. Doesn't need to
be an open office though, can also be open spaces where you create an
incentive for people to hang around more frequently. Relaxing areas. Make sure
you communicate it's okay to be there as well. The rest is basically against
open offices. Personally I don't think they are worth it for engineering
departments.

~~~
prodigal_erik
> On the plus side this is forcing people to work.

It's forcing people to type, but typing without concentrating has no value.

~~~
borplk
As a developer I get some of my absolute best work done at a time that I look
like I'm a moron and just wasting time.

I'm talking about things like lying down on the bed, staring at the ceiling
and just churning through stuff in my head.

Or just sitting on the desk and staring at a corner of the screen like someone
who has had a traumatic experience.

This means typical office environments knock me down a few steps in terms of
quality. As in, If I'm working for myself on my own terms I feel like I can be
an "A" developer.

However when I'm forced in those environments I'm capped at being a "C"
developer.

That's one of the biggest reasons I love working for myself because no one
else is questioning me about the effectiveness of my methods. Who cares if I
get work done while staring at the ceiling or typing on the keyboard? All that
matters is the output.

This means I can walk to the park sit on a bench for half an hour and come
back having more problems solved than I would have in 1 week of noisy office
time.

~~~
bastijn
I agree. Can't remember the source but the best advice I read once was
actually to not have your hands on your keyboard when you first think about a
problem. First action is sit and think about it. If that's in a park, on your
bed, or staring like a zombie is AL up to you. As long as you don't do
anything else.

This would require a (semi-)quiet space. After you can find the people you
need to discuss the things you came up with

------
hobo_mark
I remember that in "The Social Network" the characters would sometimes go
"wired in" (headphones on and no external interruptions) when they needed to
do deeply focused work, I wonder if any of that was based on how people really
worked at Facebook, at least at the beginning?

------
sandGorgon
does anyone know what kind of light works best for offices ? I have heard of
all colors ranging from 2700k to 5000k - I wonder what does facebook use.

------
ericclemmons
Requiring developers to move is what scares me away...

------
emodendroket
Where would they go instead?

------
sagivo
Open office is the main reason why so many people prefer to work from home
nowadays.

------
draw_down
I wouldn't work in that godforsaken thing but that's just me.

------
vacri
> _Facebook is paying 40-50 percent more than other places, which is usually a
> sign developers don’t want to work there._

Weren't they paying this much more before they moved to the giant office?

------
_audakel
can't you just put in headphones if you don't want to be bothered by the
conversations?

~~~
paulmooreparks
Can't the company just provide a quiet working environment where headphones
aren't required for concentration?

------
kevinSuttle
Well that, and not wanting to live in L.A..

~~~
zeppelin101
Facebook is based in the Bay Area.

~~~
kevinSuttle
I interviewed there. They wanted me in Menlo Park.

~~~
apetresc
Menlo Park is still almost 400 miles away from L.A...

~~~
kevinSuttle
Ok, CALIFORNIA. That better?

~~~
apetresc
It makes sense now, yes, but I don't think most people find living in
California to be a huge drawback. And almost all jobs ask you to live
_somewhere_.

