
"Programmer. Come Work For Us" - mkrecny
http://x.myles.io/13hGtJR
======
untog
Developers are an extremely varied bunch. I'd suspect that HN leans towards
the wide interests side because startups tend to disrupt (in the traditional
sense of the word) your ability to program rather than enhance it.

But not everyone is like that. Some developers want nothing more than a real,
meaty technical challenge. Scaling up a site that's crashing every hour.
Crunching huge datasets and extracting important data. If you find one, you
might actually be lucky- they probably have more focus than I do.

~~~
shanelja
Personally, while the whole starting a business idea seems pretty cool to me,
it's just far too grand, far too difficult and far too expensive right now!

I'm 20, I want to go to my simple 9 to 5 job, tackle a really difficult
challenge, maybe debug some Magento because that's where the real challenge is
at my company, then maybe for the last couple of hours I'll work on some of
our in house products to enjoy the freedom of custom development.

Then I'll go home, make something to eat (at a reasonable hour) and hopefully
spend a great night cuddling with my girlfriend while we watch old movies on
my laptop.

While being a billionaire business man is very enticing, right now, at this
point in my life, all I want is to be happy, and working 80 hour weeks to risk
it on a 3% chance to make it something amazing just isn't worth it for it.

~~~
untog
The one counter-argument I'd give to that is that you'll never have more time
or freedom than you do right now. If you're interested in starting a business,
don't feel any rush to do it immediately, but your twenties are a great time
to try it.

But don't get trapped working for a startup and kidding yourself that their
success is your success. If it isn't your company you probably don't own a
meaningful amount of stock- it's never worth busting your gut over.

~~~
PeterisP
Twenties does seem a great time to start a business, but somehow in real
statistics the average age when successful entrepreneurs start their companies
is 40+. You won't have more time, but you will have more resources, skills,
and in-depth understanding of some problem domain, which is a key part of any
successful business.

~~~
randomdata
What would be neat to see is how many of those 40+ success stories had failed
businesses in their twenties.

~~~
PeterisP
I can't remember the source now, but IIRC the actual measurement was the age
when they founded their _first_ company. But quite a few of them by that time
had hands-on business experience managing businesses owned by others.

~~~
randomdata
Thanks for the update. Though it would still be intriguing to see how past
business failures affect future successes. Is it better to try and fail in
your 20s, or not try at all until you are 40+, for instance? I wonder if that
kind of data is available anywhere?

------
rcamera
_"Programmer: I'll be forced to learn things outside of programming. Things
like how to design, how to market and how to do customer service.

MBA: But you, are a programmer.

Programmer: I'm also a person. Programming is just one thing I do."_

I graduated in business administration, and when I tell people I can actually
code and have been learning how to do it for the past few years, I mostly get
blank stares, which is sometimes followed by the question: _"why do you learn
it if you ain't a programmer? You should hire a programmer instead."_

They don't get it when I explain that the programmer I would need to do the
work I want done wouldn't need me as much as I would need him. They also
question me why didn't I graduate in something related to programming instead
of BA, as if studying something outside of your area of expertise is waste.

~~~
tjr
I once had a job interview for a programming job in which I was asked about
the several (programming-related) publications I had listed on my resume.

"Why did you do this? It looks like you want to be a writer, not a
programmer!"

I find it hard to imagine being so consumed with programming that you don't do
anything else at all, even things that are related to, but not actually,
programming. But even harder to imagine is why anyone would expect someone to
be that consumed with only programming?

~~~
npsimons
At my current job, it seems like I am constantly being pressured into being a
"systems engineer" or somesuch. The fact of the matter is, I really love
writing code, finding and fixing bugs, and just generally all around playing
with software. I can appreciate, and am even very interested in, things such
as hardware, materials science, physics, chemistry, etc. But there is more
than enough for one lifetime (multiple lifetimes!) in software, and I just
find it so cool that I don't want to do much else. Don't get me wrong; outside
of work I'm an amateur musician and a volunteer SAR member. I also appreciate
stretching your mind, getting a different POV and cross-training, etc, etc,
but as long as people are willing to pay me to make software, that's the job
I'll continue to do. Try to push me into something I'm not interested in, and
you'll have to find another code monkey. I'll dive into wildly differing
domains, but mainly so I can tackle them better in software.

------
pooriaazimi
> _Yes. But when I affect someone's life, I'll get a email, maybe a call about
> it, and I'll have a real conversation with someone. I'll know who they are
> and how I affected them._

And a few hundred 1-star reviews on the app store(s), saying that while they
use your app daily, it _really_ isn't worth the $1.99 they paid for, and
people should use X instead, which is FREE. Or 3-star reviews that say the app
is PERFECT, they love it, but it needs feature X (assuring you that they'll
bump up their reviews to 5 star when you add the said feature).

At times like that, I'm sure you'd rather you worked for some giant
corporation and didn't have to deal with customers directly.

~~~
jwwest
You're making a pretty big assumption that everyone works in consumer-facing
markets, and not with small- to medium-sized businesses.

The app store model is broken because it has too much Internet in it.
Anonymity + Platform = arsehat. Dealing with clients one-on-one is really
rewarding.

~~~
sdoowpilihp
Clients can be rewarding or a nightmare. I have dealt with both. There are
good and bad clients you deal with just as there are "arsehats" in the
consumer facing businesses.

------
acron0
I wish this was an accurate mindset of the kinds of programmers I have to work
with. Sometimes I picture myself tying my scarf around my head, leaping onto
my desk and screaming "Come on! Lets go! F--k this place, we can do it better
than they do it. You don't have to sit here day-in, day-out doing the same
monotonous things. We can do better this, we owe it to ourselves to do this
properly. No more people in suits ranting about deadlines, no more shitty
coffee, no more PowerPoint. We'll do it better, we'll do it cleverer and you
will feel so much the lighter for it. To the door!"

But they'd just stare at me in horror.

~~~
dools
_But they'd just stare at me in horror_

Maybe try without the scarf?

~~~
willismichael
I think you should do it, with the scarf. You never really know what will
happen until you try.

~~~
evan_
Once with the scarf, once without, and compare results.

~~~
willismichael
AB testing. Nice.

~~~
FramesPerSushi
You'll need a project manager for that.

------
yesimahuman
> _How quaint._

Perhaps the best way to describe the condescending startup hiring culture
where aspirational devs are encouraged to give up their dreams to work for yet
another VC funded rocket ship that is "changing the world."

Another recent article with this attitude:

[http://pandodaily.com/2013/01/01/your-2013-resolution-
come-t...](http://pandodaily.com/2013/01/01/your-2013-resolution-come-to-
terms-with-being-only-an-engineer/)

My guess is developers are starting to see through this BS and realize that
they very well _can_ run their own companies.

~~~
ryanSrich
> My guess is developers are starting to see through this BS and realize that
> they very well can run their own companies.

A tiny, tiny, minority that is well represented on this site. In reality most
developers out there have no clue how to run or startup a business and they
frankly shouldn't because they will fail.

~~~
gboudrias
I think failing a business is good life experience, especially for
programmers, since the starting costs are relatively very low.

~~~
ryanSrich
A failed startup is a great learning experience but when you're not ready for
it or don't learn from it, it becomes less of a benefit and more of a poor
choice. Having said that the circumstances one must be in to startup his or
her own business are very specific.

> since the starting costs are relatively very low

I'd have to disagree. Unless you're weighing "cost" on just monetary value. A
startup will cost you your free time, your health, your current career, and in
some cases your relationship if you have one. Truly being successful in the
startup world is extremely challenging and one that comes at many costs.

------
Nursie
Kinda true BUT....

Maybe you'd be surprised how many programmers there are out there who don't
care if anyone uses what they do, don't want to interact with users and aren't
really bothered who it affects, and would rather be left alone with the purity
of "here is a task, go, be a programmer".

I'm not like that _now_ , but I used to be, and I know a lot of people that
still are. All that messy stuff like business decisions, market
research/development, customer support, requirements capture... all that is so
much more soft and ill defined than me, my DE, a defined goal (that I may or
may not have helped set) and a paycheck at the end of it. Then I don't have to
think about anything but the code.

~~~
mseebach
I broadly agree with you, but I can't help but feel that you're patronizing
the position needlessly.

I think it's perfectly respectable for someone to care if anyone uses what
they do and to want to interact with users and care if their problems are
solved - but, at the same time, desiring to do this within an order of
magnitude of 40 hours a week, receive benefits, not have to worry about paying
the bills, even if the client can't be bothered to, don't have to deal with
the nitty-gritty of sales and bookkeeping and boardmeetings and fundraising
and the landlord and sourcing a new datacenter[1] and dealing with the ISP[1]
and making sure the Jenkins box is keeping up with backups[1] etc etc.

The career options for a developer (especially a good one) is a broad spectrum
of opportunities, not just a black and white selection between the machine
room of a bank or your own startup.

Edit: 1: Unless that's what you want to do.

~~~
Nursie
I certainly didn't mean to come across as patronising, sorry about that, it's
a mindset I've been in and one I sympathise with and frankly one I'm tempted
to go back to.

It's really nice to have only(!) the technical challenges laid out in front of
you and not have to deal with the business fluff.

------
nkoren
Where exactly are the programmers of which this article alludes? I recently
received seed funding for my next startup (<http://www.podaris.com/jobs.php>),
and am finding hiring developers to be extremely difficult. Yes, the work will
be extremely diverse, you'll get to interact directly with customers, and
you'll get to shape and take significant equity a product which can genuinely
change the world -- but most developers out there don't seem to be looking for
that. So far, 99% of the developers I've encountered have fit into one of two
categories:

1.) Freelancers, who are committing to remaining so because of the lifestyle
perks -- they want to be able to bugger off to that Australian walkabout more
or less whenever they feel like it -- and the level of commitment which a
startup requires just isn't appealing to them.

2.) 9-to-5ers, who want the safety and security of job with a large
corporation or agency, and really don't mind dealing with the world through a
dashboard.

I can understand where both types of people are coming from, and can't fault
them for it. What I _haven't_ found is an abundance of developers who have the
appetite for the high-commitment, high-uncertainty life which a startup
entails.

~~~
jasonkester
I think you answered your question yourself.

The guys who want to do it all are all busy doing it all. Notice the quote in
the linked article: "I was actually thinking of starting my own business."
That's what those guys are doing.

If you're looking for somebody who's motivated to run every aspect of a
business, but would prefer to run every aspect of _your_ business rather than
one in which he'd get 100% of everything, then yes, you're going to have a
tough time of it.

I'd recommend hiring one of those Australian Walkabout guys on their terms.
They're probably just as capable of doing what you want done, and they don't
come with any unrealistic expectations of what you'll give them. Pay them
money in exchange for work until you either don't need them anymore or the
money runs out. Then let them go with no hard feelings on either side.

~~~
nkoren
Well, I'm certainly not looking for somebody to run "every aspect" of my
business. I've raised the finance, developed the marketing plan, established
contacts with almost a thousand prospective client organisations, defined the
product requirements in consultation with the industry, and written the
prototype software myself. That's taken years of work and is not something to
sneeze at! But ultimately, I'm _not_ a skilled developer, and my cobbled-
together prototype is not something that can be taken to market. So a lot of
programming will be required to turn this into commercial-quality software.

The reason that I won't hire contractors to do that is that this is a highly
specialised application -- not something that fits the mould of a typical web
application -- and the developers will be instrumental in developing the core
IP. It will take a few months for even the most skilled and experienced
developer to get up to get fully up to speed with the internals details of
this truly unique platform, and there will need to be many iterations of the
platform as the product evolves. While it may be possible to do some of the
peripheral work with freelancers (eg., the UI stuff, which will use fairly
standard kit wherever possible), the unique core of the platform will only be
maintainable if there is a stable team of developers to maintain it.

Imagine if Google had tried to design and implement Pagerank, the Google File
System, and its custom server architecture using catch-as-catch-can
freelancers. That would have been a catastrophe; you just can't develop truly
unique systems that way. I'm in roughly the same boat.

However, if anything about what I've said has given the impression that I want
people to "run every aspect of my business", then I am obviously not conveying
my message clearly. I welcome suggestions for improvement!

~~~
jasonkester
I think you might be overstating the flakiness of independent contractors. I'm
pretty much the exemplar of your "catch as catch can" type (though I've never
called myself a freelancer), but I've had my share of long-term clients.

I've had recurring stints with individual companies (with the aforemention
bugger-off-to-Australia period in between when they didn't need me) spread out
over the course of several years, and I've had multi-year contracts working 40
hour weeks building Big Things.

The important bit that you might be missing is that it's generally the project
owner who determines the length of the engagement. A pro will stick around as
long as you need him. _Then_ he'll take off and enjoy those lifestyle perks.
Find some of that guy and you won't have any trouble getting your
PagerankFileSystem finished.

~~~
nkoren
It's not really "flakiness" that concerns me -- it's "ownership". I need
people who will take genuine ownership of the central pieces of the platform
-- who will design and implement the architecture of the platform, carefully
follow its performance as the product and the market matures, and make
improvements accordingly. That requires being in the same room with myself and
the rest of the development team, until the product reaches a stage of
stability and self-documentation that others can slip into that role with
relative ease.

Based on my prior experience starting software companies (this will be my
third), I know that the developers team will need to be working fulltime on
this (well, evenings, weekends, and holidays excluded...), in the same room as
the rest of the development team. And I estimate this shakedown period will
last 2-3 years -- _not_ freelance time, any way you cut it.

Again, this is really not meant to be a slight upon freelancers. They can be
excellent at what they do. But I would never ask one to take a critical role
in developing unique, cutting-edge IP in what I am certain will be a long-term
evolutionary process.

~~~
prirun
It sounds like you want an employee / contractor who will act like an owner.
If you want this level of commitment from someone very good, you usually have
to give them part of your company. And I don't mean just options and profit
sharing; I mean partners or shareholders.

Even then it is difficult, because you already have invested years in this, so
obviously anyone you bring on will be a minority stakeholder. As a minority
holder, they will have no real say-so in the business (you can always override
them in a disagreement), they have liability they wouldn't have as a
contractor / employee, and there probably will not be any profit to share for
a long time. And even when there is profit, you get to decide what to do with
it - not them. And you get the added burden of not screwing over your new
minority holder, at least not too much.

Try putting yourself in their shoes: let's say a programmer has invested 3
years in writing a cool new program and has developed "cutting-edge IP". But
they have no marketing or business experience. You do. What would you want
from this guy to dedicate 3 years of your life to him and _his_ company in a
"critical role", and "take genuine ownership" for developing his business?
(The quotes are not there to be snippy, but to use your own words to describe
what you are looking for.)

~~~
nkoren
No, I want a CTO, and certainly _not_ a contractor who will act like an owner.
(I've said many times in this thread that I am _not_ looking for contractors,
and state on the jobs page that I'm seeking full-time permanent employees).

To answer your question: what I'd want is a stake in the equity and governance
of the company. These things aren't unusual when joining a new company, and in
my prior two ventures (futurescaper.com, imatest.com), I've hired both CTOs
and CEOs without difficulty, and successfully integrated them into the
governance of the companies.

Somehow, this time around, my recruiting efforts seem to be generating a crazy
number of misunderstandings. People assume that I'm looking for contractors
(I'm not). People assume that I won't be paying competitive salaries (I will
be). People assume that I won't be giving away equity (I will be). People
assume that I won't be including officers of the company in its governance (I
will be). And people make these assumptions even when my job descriptions
explicitly say otherwise. I'm baffled by this, since I haven't encountered
these presumptions with my prior startups.

I'm starting to wonder if developers in the web application space have perhaps
been so badly burned by prior startup experiences that at this point they
basically presume bad faith from any new venture they encounter. If so, that's
really unfortunate, and I guess there's nothing I can do about it except
either A.) hide the fact that I'm a startup (which would hardly be honest), or
B.) Accept that that 90% of prospective candidates will weed themselves out
simply by making bad assumptions, and realise that I probably didn't want
those people anyway.

Also, I have to say that this experience is also starting to really warm me up
to recruiters, who presumably are more skilled than I at dealing with the sort
of industry dynamics that lead to these kind of misunderstandings.

------
orangethirty
Entrepreneurship fluff. These posts seem to forget the reality of life. What
about health care? House payments? The cost of raising children? The social
network job will allow for those. The business? Good luck with that. Oh, but
you might get some funding, you say? Try explaining to a VC how you are using
_their_ money to pay for _your_ children. Many of them don't even want you to
have base salary.

~~~
mtext
These posts are written by 20-somethings that don't have children or thing
about health care.

------
B-Con
> I'm also a person. Programming is just one thing I do.

This is not universally true. Yes, we're all people, but some people don't
want to serve as tech support, marketing, etc, themselves. Some people just
want to show up and work in a specific, technical problem.

HN isn't filled with that type, I don't think, but they certainly do exist.
And I'd guess they're the majority, too.

~~~
rocky1138
A lot of this depends on timing. My interest in doing more than solving a
bunch of meaty technical problems (where doing more includes managing a team,
speaking to people, customer service) follows a sort of sine wave pattern.

Sometimes for 6-12 months all I want to do is immerse myself in programming.
Other times I want to "change the world."

------
Kurtz79
You can affect people's lives even if working at Big Corp X.

Often, you can ask to do more things than programming at Big Corp X, if you
show interest and are valued as an employee.

Not every Big Corp X. deals with social networks for alien life forms on earth
: there are big corps X developing medical devices, airplanes and space
vehicles, public infrastructure, or researching new, game changing technology.

A lot of people working at Big (or Medium/Small) Corp X. are passionate about
their work.

I agree that by doing your own thing you have a much more direct impact on the
result, but I don't think there is such a manichean and romantic division.

~~~
mehrzad
>there are big corps X developing medical devices, airplanes and space
vehicles, public infrastructure, or researching new, game changing technology.

Please let this always be true. I don't want to get into software if it's just
gonna be webapps, not that those aren't cool, but I don't know if I like it
much.

------
pamelafox
I work at Coursera now, and we have tens of thousands of users in each class.
Like the post author, I really like to feel connected to users, to feel that
individual connection, so I go out of my way to get that by wandering around
the support forums and monitoring Twitter mentions. Every once in a while, I
run into people I know too, and the world feels that much smaller. :-) So,
yes, it's easy to feel disconnected from people when you work on a product
with many users, but if you want to, I think there's often a way to find them.

~~~
ericd
This is exactly what I do as well, and it works quite well. It's also one of
my favorite parts about running a small company, and I think I'd like to make
it a policy that programmers should interact directly with the customers at
least sometimes.

------
fredley
I've worked in very large companies, small companies and I'm now in a 4-man
startup. At the end of the day it's about the environment and challenges you
enjoy, and the ways in which you want to grow. Some people get a kick out of
being a tiny cog in a huge, complex and influential machine, and others would
rather that their tiny cog be the _only_ (and therefore largest, and most
important) cog. You can use a fish/pond based analogy if you prefer.

------
J_Darnley
Why on Earth is this linking to some shortener rather than to the actual page,
<http://edu.mkrecny.com/thoughts/programmer-come-work-for-us> ?

~~~
thomasbk
Presumably because the submitter's username is also the domain, so by using a
link shortener he can hide the fact that it was submitted by the author.

------
HunterV
Yay! Everyone start their own company! I mean why not? Who needs salaried
work? It's just so easy and risk-free if you already know how to program!

Come on now, start a company when you've identified a problem that really
needs a fix, and that has a huge potential of profit. A great way to find that
problem is in a paid position. Starting a company for the sake of starting a
company won't get you anywhere.

~~~
tracker1
I'd started my own company at one point, and utterly failed at it... didn't
enjoy it at all, and it wasn't at all freeing.. in fact I never felt more
constrained.

I also spent 8 months in a Director level position, managing several teams and
several projects. Also much more constrained. Though, I did learn that there
is far more mediocrity in the majority of programmers than greatness at that
time.

Now, I'm much more about putting in my time, making the projects I work on
better when I leave than when I start. I enjoy contract work as I get to learn
new things constantly (domain knowledge in diverse cultures), which to me is a
lot of fun. Right now, I'm working for an internal development operations
group, which means creating services for other development groups... It's
interesting for the moment, though I'm enjoying the slower pace so far.

I spent the last year and a half before where I am working on changing the
environment of a set of very stale projects that had become maintenance
nightmares, and bringing them into more current structures. Enhancing the UI
as well as simplifying other systems. It really depends.

------
hodgesmr
I couldn't agree with this more. Unfortunately, for every "I am a person"
developer out there, there are 2-3 "all I care about is code" developer. It's
depressing.

~~~
AlisdairO
I'm not sure why it's depressing that someone would enjoy coding and not
business + coding. Some people tend towards specialism, some generalism. It's
probably good that we have both sorts of people.

Me, I'm a specialist at heart - I have no interest at all in business. All I
want in the world is for someone to come to me with an interesting problem to
solve, and to help them solve it. Fortunately, I have that, and I get plenty
of enjoyable interaction from helping less technically able (but more
customer-focused) people to produce what they want to produce.

Classifying specialists as not-people is condescending and pathetic, every bit
as much as it would be for someone like me to dismiss generalists as morons
because of their lack of technical depth.

~~~
gordaco
And don't forget about people who don't like to specialize, yet wouldn't like
to be anywhere near business administration. The idea of being _only_ a
programmer seems to me as depressing as running a business. It's just not for
me; there are a ton of things to learn, and I prefer those that stimulate my
brain before anything that stimulates my wallet (and yes, business
administration may stimulate someone's brain, just not me).

I prefer to have a 9-to-5 job that pays the bills and then, back home, study
anything else.

------
jokoon
This shit comes from the fact the industry consider tech-savvy people like
inhuman monsters. Nerds and geeks and otakus and such, are considered like a
plague, while in fact there were pioneers.

Computing is still considered like magic, and it will stay like that for a
long time.

------
quackerhacker
I love the ending! "I'm also a person. Programming is just one thing I do."

I'm a programmer, but creating a product of their own is difficult and I
commend those that do so. I've learned while doing my projects that aside from
programming, I need to be...

An Investor...investing money into hardware, but MOST importantly, time. Time
to code, to learn, and time from work and for family.

My Own Boss...doesn't mean I don't answer to anyone, it means I need to be
harder on myself to get *ish done, because there is no team to offload work
on.

Open-minded...even though working a 9-5 would allow me to specialize in a
specific area and a lovely paycheck bi-weekly, my projects/businesses required
that I learn so many new things that it's continually frustrating and
irritating. Ex: filing articles of incorporation, learning photoshop (I was
strictly a coder), micromanaging lists of tasks, formulate a way to pay the
bills while donating time to my projects (emphasis on donating).

Side Note: Even though at times I may get jealous of my peers that I know that
work at Google and the state...there's a fire inside me burning, just knowing
that I will be something big, and I am my only true investor...programming IS
just one of the things I do.

------
sharmanaetor
Work "for" us? How about work "with" us?

~~~
notb
The work FOR us theme is present throughout. I'd guess it was intentional...

------
timjahn
I'm young (in the scheme of life).

But I think the quicker you learn what's truly important to you, you start to
spend more time on those projects/with those people/in that place/etc and you
feel more fulfilled, and that you're making more of an impact, than you ever
did before.

~~~
mtext
Then you learn that all places are terrible and become an old grumpy man (in
the scheme of life) like me.

~~~
timjahn
I suppose that's one option. :)

------
lhnz
This is how I see myself, too.

I will just continue reading and doing things by my own will until somebody
finally realises that domain dependent thinking is rarely innovative and that
they might be able to get a competitive advantage from utilising the broad-
range of expertise I am trying to grow.

Everybody is different; some of us require variety to focus; and some of us
get-off on bridging gaps in between disparate domains.

------
notb
This has been my experience with recruiters but once you get past the wall of
pleasantries and fake attitudes, they usually talk with more sense.

Edit: Sibling comments are talking a lot about the author's personal
motivating factors but are ignoring the bigger message of poor hiring tactics
like repeating talking points and marginalizing personal goals. I got you,
though, op.

------
z5h
Haha. This would be great compared to emails headhunters like to send.

"Come work for a company we won't mention here. You will need all of these
skills: ...

Interested?"

------
umsm
One thing I learned from an honest manager: He felt his managerial position
was more at risk than his position as a developer.

------
gdulli
It's an interesting interpretation of the fields of marketing and customer
service to lead one to believe it would be desirable to do more work in those
roles and less work in software engineering. To each, their own.

------
taurath
This is why I pushed to have my company fly me across the country to an client
event we're doing. I've been working here for a year but I've never met a
single person who uses the code I write on a daily basis.

------
wfunction
> At times, new code that you write will correlate with a statistically
> significant change in one of the numbers on that dashboard. You will then
> know that you have affected billions of beings.

Correlation == ...causation?

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jasallen
So. wait. I can't actually write software for alien beings? Tease.

Anyway, agree with the sentiments personally, but not sure that's true of
those who identify strongly with the moniker "programmer".

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catshirt
respectfully, i honestly cannot even guess what the point of this post is.

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anasuddeen
Very pain full, but very very valuable. Being a human.

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arti5m
Hooray!

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fnoblesse
Good :)

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mccolin
:-)

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sultezdukes
The mooninites (<http://aqua-teen-hunger-force.wikia.com/wiki/The_Mooninites>)
are the perfect voice for that persuading.

