
M.M.A. Fighter’s Pummeling of Tai Chi Master Rattles China - BatFastard
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/10/world/asia/mma-martial-arts-china-tai-chi.html
======
paradite
As a native Chinese speaker, I just want to point out that this paragraph:

> An article by Xinhua, the state news agency, called Mr. Xu a “crazy guy,”
> saying that the fight had caused people to question whether Chinese martial
> arts were of any use and even to ask, “What exactly are traditional Chinese
> martial arts?”

Is a complete misinterpretation of the original sentence cited in the article:

> 综合格斗狂人徐晓冬和太极人士雷雷的视频引发了人们对中国武术的好奇和关注，中国武术到底是什么？有实战性吗？中国武术应该如何更好地推广普及？

1\. "狂人" is literally "crazy guy", but mostly used as a compliment to say
someone is extremely good, hardworking or dedicated in something, in this case
M.M.A.

2 "What exactly are traditional Chinese martial arts?" is also taken out of
context, it is used in the introduction paragraph to guide the readers to the
detailed descriptions below, and has nothing to do with the existential crisis
of martial arts whatsoever.

NYT employees, if you are reading this, please get someone better in Chinese
to handle the translation and interpretation.

Edit:

And this, is not how you cite your sources from weibo:

> <a
> href="[http://weibo.com/login.php">message](http://weibo.com/login.php">message)
> circulating online</a>

~~~
yeezul
Journalist: But that URL fine for me.

/s

------
madhadron
This is the tip of a very large, complicated subject. Start by reading
[https://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/four_focuses.html](https://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/four_focuses.html).
Here we have two different ends conflicting. MMA is a sport, along with
boxing, K5 and sansho and judo. Many of the Chinese stylists today are
carrying on a cultural or demonstration tradition.

From that point of view, a martial arts instructor can be very competent at
his job while not producing effective sport fighters. For example, many kids
karate schools are very effective daycares. A seniors tai qi club may be an
excellent way to get people moving and prevent injuries from falling. An MMA
gym is a great place for young men to work through their testosterone driven
haze. Why can't a martial arts school be treated like a Go studio or a chess
club?

And if you depart from fitness for purpose, then you have problems. SEAL
sentry removal techniques taught at an MMA gym or a kids karate school would
be a disaster. A sport fighter teaching MMA at a seniors tai qi club is going
to find a very uninterested audience. It goes the other way, too. A sport
fighter training police is a problem because he is probably unaware of the
laws governing use of force.

So what Xu has done is the equivalent of a kid from the boxing club going and
beating up the chess club.

~~~
dagw
_So what Xu has done is the equivalent of a kid from the boxing club going and
beating up the chess club._

The part you're missing is that this whole thing kicked off because kids from
the chess club where going around claiming that chess was a better basis for
fighting than boxing.

~~~
gambler
Where exactly was this claimed?

~~~
cxseven
[https://youtu.be/5l_t70EG8E0](https://youtu.be/5l_t70EG8E0)

Search Youtube for tai chi to see other hilarious examples, including some guy
who claimed he could stop a train.

~~~
gambler
In the video I see some old guy pushing people. Nothing to do with what I
asked. Where are the claims of superiority to other martial arts?

------
hprotagonist
I am reminded of Musashi's thoughts in the Book of 5 Rings, which are
approximately "Kendo is a spiritual practice of self discipline, the way-of-
the-sword. Kenjutsu is the skill of killing people with a sharp bit of metal.
It is important not to conflate the two."

------
badloginagain
I won't wade into the "MMA better than TMA" argument, but I do want to
deconstruct why the Tai Chi Practitioner (TCP) lost that fight.

You'll notice when they first engage, the TCP does a pretty good job blocking
the incoming strikes. He doesn't appear to get hit right-out and, as expected
with Tai Chi, yields to the attack (backing up). The problem is the attacker
doesn't let up, a concept called 'Holding down the pillow'.

I think the reason he didn't handle that MMA style of charging attack is
because (in my experience) Tai Chi isn't taught that way. Applications are
taught as part of a 1/2/3 strike combination, then resetting. Rare is the case
where you defend against 3+ attacks. There's a number of reasons for this, but
suffice to say its something that probably should be incorporated into their
training.

As a final note, the problem of 'McDojos' has long been known. But I would say
there's an equal problem of MMA schools where it's more about dominating new
students than teaching. Martial arts is really quite hard, and some people
want to learn how to look cool/graceful/powerful than actually learn how to
defend oneself.

~~~
mdekkers
_...Tai Chi isn 't taught that way...._

Rendering it useless as an effective fighting technique.

~~~
badloginagain
Not practicing against a single type of attack does not equate to it being
useless against any fighting technique.

You haven't given me much to work with in terms expressing your point of view
beyond trolling, next time try to express yourself a bit better.

~~~
mdekkers
An observation that doesn't match your worldview isn't trolling, which by some
definitions is taken to mean: _Trolling is trying to get a rise out of
someone. Forcing them to respond to you, either through wise-crackery, posting
incorrect information, asking blatantly stupid questions, or other
foolishness._ which looks a lot like what you are doing.

Having gotten that out of the way, it depends on why you practice any kind of
Martial Art. If you are a "keep fit/sports/internal balance" practitioner,
your position has some limited merit. If you are the "self-defense/offence"
practitioner, your position is vapid bullshit as the only things that counts
is self preservation and winning the fight, in that order of importance. Yours
is the type of argument that would go down well in a dark alley (or a ring,
see the linked video): "VICTIM: "Oh, you can't do that to me - I didn't
practice that!" ATTACKER: "Apologies good sir, which method of defense did you
practice?"

Given the video above was mostly about a Tai Chi Master saying "I can deal
with your uppity MMA" and him subsequently being swiftly and brutally proven
wrong, I'd say my original posts has ample merit. Further explanation should
only be required for the dense and the trolls.

There, did I express myself to your obviously exacting standards? :)

------
mulletbum
Kind of confused why this is on HN, but I practice Jujitsu and would just like
to say, it is perfectly fine to think your style of martial arts should be
compared to Yoga. Don't however compare your art to MMA.

Also, this article really makes MMA sound like a brutal no holds barred sport,
which is just incorrect. MMA is as beautiful as all the other previous martial
arts (I know, I know, MMA is a conglomerate of all of them). People have spent
the last 20 years trying to say MMA is a blood sport. This is just another
attempt to pose it as such.

~~~
agumonkey
It sure is the bloodiest martial art I've ever seen. It also has no form it
seems. It's too freeform and too violent IMO.

~~~
tinco
What do you mean by that is has no form? I feel this might just be that you're
not used to watching these matches. It's the same as someone not familiar with
soccer watching a soccer match, it's just some guys running around kicking a
ball randomly. There is technique, tactics and strategy involved in MMA. As
evidenced by this Tai Chi master being worked to the ground quickly and
effectively. In my opinion the MMA fighter demonstrated excellent form.

~~~
agumonkey
Arts and sports have constraints, MMA has none right ? I don't say it's easy,
just that it's first in the coma loses.

In soccer you don't score a goal because you said so. In most martial arts you
use dedicated forms and styles which impose constraints on how the match
evolves. In Chess you have limited movements.. etc etc

~~~
dagw
_MMA has none right_

MMA has plenty of constraints. First of all there a bunch of techniques that
are illegal (details differ slightly between organisations). Secondly you are
fighting in an enclosed space (again details differ) so you have to know how
to use that to your advantage. Thirdly there are time limits and round limits
so you have to know how to manage you time and energy. Finally there is a
scoring system that you have to understand so you know how to score points in
the case that no one finishes the fight in the allotted time.

Also if you're going to do MMA for living you have to take into account that
being entertaining is just as important as winning for your bottom line.

~~~
agumonkey
Which fighting sport doesn't have spatial constraints ?

~~~
kbenson
It sounded like at first you were positioning MMA as not a sport:

> Arts and sports have constraints, MMA has none right ?

and now you're using its classification as a sport to minimize the
effectiveness of the response that shows it is a sport with constraints?

> Which fighting sport doesn't have spatial constraints ?

I'm having trouble tracking what point you're trying to make.

~~~
agumonkey
I understand your point, I look absurd, but I can revert back to the answer
above, spatial constraint is not a sport qualifying constraint. Or you can say
it's a sport because you have to have two legs.

MMA limitations seems to be, do not attack sensitive parts and do not kill the
opponent. There's nothing to master other than survival. Every people trying
to use one genre/style, ended up smashed by the people that went purely for
pragmatics (put the guy down, smash his face until submission). My (own
personal subjective perceptional) definition of art cannot accept this. See
for instance dancing has some innate aesthetics, moving is not enough to be
dance. Random noise is mostly not music.

~~~
kbenson
Most direct human vs human sports have a space constraint, but not all sports
do. Hunting, for example, doesn't have a space constraint (not a feasible one,
at least. Sure, you might be constrained by a state, but all sports are
currently constrained by our planet). You did specifically mention fighting
sports though.

> MMA limitations seems to be, do not attack sensitive parts and do not kill
> the opponent. There's nothing to master other than survival.

Perhaps you would like to see this list of MMA rules[1]? It seems there are
quite a few rules other than what you listed, and there are a few ways to end
the fight. There are, for example, technical knock-outs, and doctors can call
the fight.

> Every people trying to use one genre/style, ended up smashed by the people
> that went purely for pragmatics (put the guy down, smash his face until
> submission).

That isn't what I remember seeing every time when UFC first started. What I
remember is that certain styles were immediately shown to be more practical
when the setting is one-on-one and with _less_ constraints that are purely to
enforce a style. Grappling quickly showed its strength, and those people that
had no answer for that found themselves at a severe disadvantage. Striking is
useful, but has a very specific useful range, and it generally does not
include "on top of me". The sport relatively quickly moved towards submission
and/or maneuvering your opponent such that you can strike but not be grappled.

Just as in boxing, where a single opening can lead to one or two devastating
hits that can decide or at least greatly influence a fight, in MMA the same
can happen. Much of the fight is about the strategy and tactics of maneuvering
into that position.

> My (own personal subjective perceptional) definition of art cannot accept
> this.

I don't think you need to reassess your definition, but I think it's possible
you are making assertions without enough knowledge to know how true they are.
I rarely watch MMA or Boxing, maybe once a year, but still I can see that
quite a bit of skill, strategy and tactics goes into what the fighters are
attempting. To the degree that some fighters undoubtedly train and incorporate
more specific techniques into their current moves based on their opponents
strengths and weaknesses.

1: [http://www.dummies.com/sports/mixed-martial-arts/rules-of-
mi...](http://www.dummies.com/sports/mixed-martial-arts/rules-of-mixed-
martial-arts-fighting/)

------
plinkplonk
There is an update on this at reddit
[https://www.reddit.com/r/kungfu/comments/69djj5/yesterdays_u...](https://www.reddit.com/r/kungfu/comments/69djj5/yesterdays_update_on_the_xu_incident/)

Apparently the powers that be have decided to take down the MMA 'threat' to
China's classical martial arts.

There was a report on Jack Ma supporting the Tai Chi "side" but I cant' find
it now.

EDIT: Here it is titled "Kung fu fan Jack Ma weighs in on tai chi vs. MMA
fight"

[https://news.cgtn.com/news/3d636a4d30637a4d/share.html](https://news.cgtn.com/news/3d636a4d30637a4d/share.html)

~~~
gambler
Pretty horrible response if true. I understand why some disciplines prefer not
to respond to such challenges, but persecuting the challenger is absolutely
the wrong thing to do.

------
orasis
Black belt in Gracie Jiu Jitsu here. I thought this debate was settled
decisively by the Gracie family and the UFC in the 90s, but apparently the
Chinese missed the memo.

Delusions are painful to see through especially when they're propping up the
ego. Collective delusion even more so.

    
    
        What if everything around you
    
        Isn't quite as it seems
    
        What if all the world you used to know
    
        Is an elaborate dream?
    
        And if you look at your reflection
    
        Is that all you want it to be?
    
        What if you could look right through the cracks
    
        Would you find yourself—find yourself afraid to see?"
     - Trent Reznor

~~~
madhadron
The UFC rules were designed around the Gracie family's jujitsu. Under, say,
sansho rules, it looks completely different.

~~~
MagnumOpus
Meh, other rulesets like Pride, Strikeforce, Bellator let similar skillsets
rise to the top as well - as do other similar full-contact low-rule MAs like
combat sambo.

Yes, if you forbid chokes and joint manipulation, you get kickboxing or
muaythai, but that is not the point of MMA which tries to get rid of arbitrary
rules.

~~~
madhadron
The rules aren't arbitrary, they just reflect different settings and
priorities. UFC and its kindred disallow downward strikes to the back of the
head, which makes many grappling entries safe that would otherwise be far too
risky to use. Given that it began as a showcase for a mix of grappling and
striking, that was perfectly sensible. Sanshou allows throws and locks, but no
going to the ground. Outside of a ring or octagon, that's a very reasonable
precaution for keeping the fighters safe. Elbows and knees are forbidden in
amateur muay thai but allowed in professional because of the level of risk
considered acceptable.

The most instructive study for this kind of thing I know is the progression of
rules in western boxing, which used to involve kicks, wrestling, throws, and
weapons. It was steadily narrowed down for safety reasons.

Then for fun, go contrast the rulesets and techniques adapted to them with,
say, Fairbain and Sykes or Rex Applegate's combatives.

------
panglott
Fighting styles are always geared to the situations people expect them to be
in. MMA is a combat sport based on unarmed street fights and holding to the
ideal of as quickly and effectively subduing an opponent. Fencing, for
example, is not aimed at battlefield combat between feudal warriors wearing
mail and carrying heavy weapons, but unarmored civilians engaged in honor
duels to first blood.

Traditional Japanese martial arts frequently descend from Edo-period
traditions re-organized in the Meiji era, and often focus on weapons training.
Kendou for example, still focuses on heavily-armored warriors fighting with
swords. I don't think that many people think this is preparation for a
realistic contemporary combat situation so much as it is lived respect for
tradition and knowledge. Traditional martial arts frequently have other goals,
as with Morihei Ueshiba and aikido.

MMA tends to market itself as "real fighting", but it carries its own
assumptions about the conditions of fighting. It would be as ridiculous to pit
an MMA fighter against an armed and armored Japanese kendoist as against a
WWII-era GI with a Tommy gun.

~~~
splawn
This was my exact thought. Who cares if in the end its all just a contrived
game. In reality, any 10 year old with less than an hr of training and a
firearm could "win" a fight against a black belt of whatever.

~~~
panglott
I don't necessarily think that either—pistols can be a lot harder to use in
combat than people think, such as when your opponent can close and grapple
before you can draw.

Sports and games are organized by their rules, and combat sports are no
different. No one should think that sumo is good combat training—the loser is
the first to step outside the ring or touch the ground with any part of their
body other than the foot. But it is a great sport that requires very
specialized training, with some exceptions.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takanoyama_Shuntar%C5%8D](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takanoyama_Shuntar%C5%8D)

But this means that, if practitioners claim that these are skills that can
increase one's personal safety, it's important to test these conditions and
assumptions. MMA fighters specialize to win MMA-style fights...but what about
outside of those assumptions?

------
tdb7893
Really this article mirrors the overall disagreement in the martial arts
community where many people think that the best way to practice martial arts
is through sparring and pressure testing against legitimate opponents. In my
practical experience (having done a few different traditional martial arts)
I've actually come to a similar conclusion in that all the martial arts I've
considered effective have practised with some sort of "aliveness" in their
training. I think as long as traditional martial artists aren't being trained
in a more robust manner they will just keep getting hammered.

------
serg_chernata
I'm so confused. If the point of traditional arts is:

“It’s not about really hurting. It’s about giving your opponent ‘face.’"

Why did Wei Lei agree to this bout in the first place?

Why does Mr. Xu now have to go into hiding and be ashamed of himself?

Sometimes this world makes no sense.

~~~
eeks
It's about honor, respect, and sportsmanship. When Mr. Xu realized the
superiority of his martial art form, he should have behaved himself in a more
dignified manner: let his superiority show without giving his opponent a
beating.

~~~
serg_chernata
Not sure if you're being sarcastic. How exactly would he do that?

~~~
self_assembly
By not continuing to pummel him when he is on the ground. I don't know what
could compel someone to continue hitting a person's head as he lays helpless
on the ground (the opponent was basically curled up in the fetal position). At
that point it just seems like the fighter gets some sort of sick enjoyment
from hurting the other person.

~~~
echlebek
The referee is supposed to stop the fight when one of the fighters becomes
unable to defend himself.

~~~
self_assembly
Sure I get that. But how far do you take that justification? Would you be
willing to kill someone who is laying on the ground defenseless because the
referee is inept. Fighters need to have some self control. And it in this
specific situation it seemed pretty cut and dry that the Tai Chi master was
not able to fight back.

------
mankyd
The closing paragraph:

> “The key difference between what Mr. Xu does and martial arts is that
> martial arts isn’t a competitive sport,’’ he said. “It’s not about really
> hurting. It’s about giving your opponent ‘face.’ And Mr. Xu’s style is about
> beating your opponent to near death.”

What does that person think the "martial" in martial arts means?

~~~
ceejayoz
> What does that person think the "martial" in martial arts means?

I'm sure they're fully aware of what "martial" means, as well as "arts".
Combining the two gets you combat-inspired art. Just as an opera singer might
not _actually_ be great at fighting demons, a martial artist isn't necessarily
all that great at combat.

~~~
brbrodude
I think that's a modern interpretation of what "art" is. It used to be seem as
something much closer to 'craft', or something you devote to learning and
putting in practice decades to attain mastery and something like that. So
martial arts would be really the craft and art of fighting, killing,
defending, war and etc.

I'd suppose the admiration that people took in what the 'artmen'/'craftsmen'
discovered and became capable of doing spawned, in turn, what is commonly
tried to be pinned down as 'art', today.

My thesis on the OP is just that tradition and 'show' took over the chinese
martial arts, then they got practiced and studied as something on the sky
instead of practical art, and so it now loses to the more pragmatic martial
art of today(that is, ignoring the spiritual aspect of it). But imagine
centuries ago how much someone with training on the traditional martial arts
could kick way more ass and protect his ground compared to a nobody. Even
today someone without any training will most certainly have very little chance
against a one trained in 'traditional martial arts', it's just not so
specialized.

Interesting to note that Bruce Lee on his later years was making his own
martial art that was meant to be practical and raw, there's various quotes of
him talking about that, maybe the guys could pick that up.

~~~
brbrodude
another little detail, too. Is that MMA is built on top of what the old stuff
discovered, and so, obviously it ends up with a much shorter road to travel to
improve and etc.. The traditional guys could easily pick up from there and
make their "mma with chinese characteristics" which could probably be kickass
too or something :p

------
csours
[https://youtu.be/V6RrxTBdJs4?t=90](https://youtu.be/V6RrxTBdJs4?t=90)

Direct link to actual fight.

~~~
panglott
Interesting summary text: "Prior to the bout, MMA fighter Xu had criticized
traditional martial arts for being outdated and “a lie” without combat
purposes, strongly insulting Tai-Chi in particular. In response Wei challenged
him to a duel. The stage was set in Chengdu, China in front of a large crowd
with a referee and MC."

------
awjr
I think the interesting thing here is that I suspect many practitioners of
martial arts take the 'art' very very seriously treating combat as an eloquent
dance.

MMA is a style that takes all the deadliest aspects of multiple martial art
styles and brutally hones them to kill the opponent fast. It's very effective.

I vaguely remember outrage when an artist made art by cutting up other artists
paintings. I see similarities here.

~~~
wnevets
>I think the interesting thing here is that I suspect many practitioners of
martial arts take the 'art' very very seriously treating combat as an eloquent
dance.

or they're just con men tricking people into following their useless bullshit

~~~
viraptor
What's wrong with art? Not every runner trains to compete world class. Not
every dancer wants to join competitions. Tai Chi is still popular with people
who wouldn't be able to fight and gives them joy - even though the moves do
come from fighting stances. You just need the keep enough sense not to
challenge other people to fight you. I don't see a reason to call this
bullshit.

~~~
dagw
_What 's wrong with art?_

Absolutely nothing. It's great. The problem is that far too many McDojos are
offering exercise while claiming to teach deadly fighting techniques. The
problem is not the art, it's the delusion.

------
eeks
MMA is to martial art what modern warfare is to the art of war: achieving
supremacy, regardless of the means. A testimony of our times.

~~~
Will_Parker
MMA is to ancient martial arts what those arts were in their own time: A
rational scientific endeavour to optimize the human brain and body for combat
and self defence.

Spirituality and mysticism aren't part of this any more than they are part of
trying to run 100 meters as quickly as possible.

~~~
eeks
> Spirituality and mysticism aren't part of this any more than they are part
> of trying to run 100 meters as quickly as possible.

That statement simply shows your complete lack of knowledge about martial
arts.

MMA, and Krav Maga and Systema, are martial practices. But they are certainly
not art forms.

~~~
Will_Parker
What is your definition of art, if it is so clear to you that you can bucket
into "yes" and "no"?

------
rrggrr
>“I’ve lost everything, my career and everything,” he said in a message
circulating online. “I think many people misunderstand me. I’m fighting
fraudulence, but now I’ve become the target.”

Its often the same for INFOSEC researchers and hobbyists. Change is resisted
everywhere.

------
Tharkun
I fail to see the controversy or even the surprise. Fighting is a skill like
any other: learnt by trial and error. Tai Chi's curriculum, for all its
benefits and martial origins, does not include fighting.

The article talks about judo, karate etc in the same breath. Most
commercialized/popularized martial arts face the same issue: they are tightly
regulated and "exhibition" driven.

The rules of judo competition, for instance, disallow large parts of the judo
curriculum. As a result those parts are rarely taught, and only taught to very
high ranking folks. This causes judo to lose part of what makes it a martial
art. Given enough time, it might (d?)evolve into something akin to Tai Chi.

~~~
rsync
"Tai Chi's curriculum, for all its benefits and martial origins, does not
include fighting."

This is not really true ...

You are correct that all Tai Chi that you see being practiced and essentially
all Tai Chi practitioners are basically doing standing yoga exercises.

However, there _are_ people studying Tai Chi stances and movements and their
application to "real" fighting.

I am very, very much opposed to the bullshit in martial arts and I am happy to
see frauds exposed ... but as a mixed martial arts and BJJ player, I do find
value in Tai Chi movements and practice - and not solely for relaxation and
meditation.

------
DiffEq
Only the abandonment of reason could have caused anybody to expect a different
outcome.

------
carrycon
I think the NYTimes is either exaggerating things or they are trying to sell a
narrative.

"China" has always known that wushu is just for show and that Tai Chi is more
like yoga rather than a fighting style.

Besides, Bruce Lee already dispelled all the myths surrounding "traditional
kung fu" a long time ago. This isn't some new concept that was introduced by
MMA.

------
spuz
"Are you not entertained?"

~~~
Tharkun
More like "are you not trained?".

------
oblio
I see that the article is new, but isn't the actual story older? I remember
seeing something like this a few years ago.

Edit: Ah, there it is:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I)
Not exactly the same thing, but the same principle :)

~~~
dagw
You're probably thinking of a similar event that happened in Japan a few years
ago where a "kiai master" claiming a 200-0 record challenged an MMA fighter.

The actual video (it's on YouTube) is really quite sad. It opens with a clip
of him 'sparring' with his students and it just the most compliant thing you
have ever seem. His students are literally throwing themselves onto the ground
as soon as he gets close to them, clearly feeding his delusion.

Then the real fight happens and the 'master' just looks so lost and confused
when he realizes his techniques have absolutely no effect. At the end of the
day it's just a video of a very delusional old man getting punched in the face
and having no idea what just happened.

~~~
oblio
Well, the current display is not much better in my opinion...

Xu is right, if you're presenting your "craft" as something you do for health
reasons, great. If you're presenting it as something which should save your
life in a dangerous situation... then that's a problem.

------
iorrus
There are many different types of Tai Chi. I've never heard of "thunder style"
before. The real people and I've met them do not enter competitions like this.

~~~
tcoff91
It's good that they don't, because they would get beat decisively. I shudder
when thinking of how brutal it would be to watch Jon Jones destroy some poor
clueless Tau Chi practitioner who thought they had a chance.

~~~
iorrus
Trust me there are people out there who are the real deal. This guy is no 'tai
chi' master.

~~~
tcoff91
There is no real deal to Tai Chi. The fact of the matter is that a Thai Chi
fighter has less tools in their arsenal than the best MMA fighters.

The traditional martial arts that are actually effective have already been
incorporated into MMA. Jujitsu, Muay Thai, Wrestling, even some Tae Kwon Doe,
Karate, these have all made inroads. But nobody makes it far these days in MMA
knowing only one form.

Even if the best tai chi guy could hold his own on the feet, the MMA fighter
would just go for a takedown or pull guard and the tai chi guy would not have
the tools to defend.

There is not a single person who practices Tai Chi who has anywhere close to
the breadth of martial arts mastery that someone like Demetrious Johnson has.

~~~
iorrus
Do you practice Tai Chi? Do you know anything about it?

I do and I've met serious people who can do some incredible things. These
people are serious and don't go into the ring with some self promoting idiot.

~~~
dagw
Where does this gentleman fall on your serious Tai Chi practitioner scale:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l_t70EG8E0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l_t70EG8E0)

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gambler
Interview with the MMA guy. Quite interesting:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQxxt0H8DJM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQxxt0H8DJM)

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AKifer
Bruce Lee foresaw it 50 years ago

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wnevets
There are some great videos of these liars getting their asses handed to them
by actual skilled fighters.

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austincheney
This reminds me of the criticism of JavaScript from many C++/Java/C#
developers.

~~~
proaralyst
Could you elaborate? Which way round do you mean this to be?

~~~
austincheney
C++/Java/C# are formally taught languages for students in school earning a
computer science education. Most software developers are produced by 4 year
university programs teaching students in these languages. For many of these
developers the paradigms shared by those languages are the very definition and
essence of programming.

When these developers are tasked to write in JavaScript at work without any
preparation or training, which is quite common, the myth of their narrowly
defined view of programming is shattered. This results in low confidence and
depression, but is frequently manifested in excuses, blaming the technology,
other forms of cognitive complexity, and depression.

JavaScript is different than these other languages and makes no attempt to
masquerade as such, which can be deceiving as the syntax is visibly similar.

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lightedman
Most people on the streets could tell you most "Traditional Martial Arts" are
fluff. Hasn't been one TKD, KF, or MTKB practitioner in my hood that hasn't
had their face handed to them in a real street fight by someone that doesn't
care what you do - they're going to step in and HIT you, plain and simple.

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matz1
Wait, so who is losing in this fight ?

