

How to tell a young(ish) person their behavior is inappropriate at work. - Articulate
http://www.articulateventures.com/articulate-blog/category/how-to-tell-a-youngish-person-their-behavior-is-inappropriate-at-work

======
rollo_tommasi
Where the hell does this "we were all given medals for trying" meme come from?
I came in fourth or fifth place or sixth place in a lot of activities as a kid
and I never got a got a trophy for any of them. Is this idea backed up by any
kind of analysis? Is there an "ur-quote" somewhere that all subsequent
repetitions of this idea have descended from?

More to the point, the real salient feature of the "Milennial" job market
experience is ruthless competition for top colleges and elite jobs, with
sharply declining prospects for those who don't make the cut. No generation
since the Depression has had to throw so many elbows and jump through as many
hoops to carve out a livable career, which makes these kind of coddled-kids
feature-length sighs incredibly frustrating to read.

The specific instance that this guy is shaking is head over is especially
silly. He's throwing this kid some b.s. resume-boosting make-work basically as
a personal favor, and he's surprised the kid doesn't treat it like a white-
shoe interview?

~~~
bluedino
Have you been to a kids soccer game? Everyone makes the team, everyone gets to
play, and everyone gets a little trophy at the end of the season. Some leagues
don't even keep score.

~~~
ImprovedSilence
I'm still young, I remember ruthless cuts for baseball teams, and then all
star traveling team selection after that. It was very much not "everybody gets
to play"

~~~
famousactress
Exactly, I think this is the distinction people miss when promoting this meme.
Most kids soccer leagues are not competitive, and not meant to be. It's meant
to be fun, and inclusive and get kids interested in sports and being outside
and not being obese. It makes sense to be universally encouraging in these
contexts.

Kids who show a serious interest and aptitude and join competitive leagues
definitely find themselves having a very different experience.

~~~
run4yourlives
_Kids who show a serious interest and aptitude and join competitive leagues
definitely find themselves having a very different experience._

Those of us a little older remember when competition extended right into non-
competitive play, for better or worse.

The overall point being that the move towards creating less "losers" by
removing the opportunity to lose is actually a detriment to development.

------
shubb
Wow, here is the conversation this blog is about [1].

I'm horrified. Not so much that this guy wants his 'friend' to suddenly start
acting like an anonymous jobseeker, in order to get work he is being offered
for being a 'friend'.

No, I'm just horrified that the author is comfortable boasting about his
arrogance. 'Silly college kid'? That's an amazing lack of respect for a human,
never mind a prospective employee. I think any high value prospective employee
coming across this blog would run a mile.

And why is this guy who graduated in 2005 writing articles about how terrible
young people are?

I'm surprised to see a PR guy embarrass himself publicly like this. Vance
Crowe, if you are reading this, is this part of some strategy?

[1][http://static.squarespace.com/static/51683bece4b0af794dea1f9...](http://static.squarespace.com/static/51683bece4b0af794dea1f9d/t/519d0c09e4b040c7ea721879/1369246792616/photo.PNG)

~~~
angersock
Honestly, the kid comes off as a jackass in his text--"mmm yes i am a super
busy college kid, what do you have to offer me? _swirls whiskey glass_ ".

The "silly college kid" part is clearly meant in jest, likely because of their
shared history.

I'm all about iconoclasm, but the kid's communication there is just painful to
read.

~~~
notahacker
See, I saw that problem in the kid's sense of entitlement to an employment
opportunity he's apparently been vaguely offered and thought _that's the sort
of mistake a naive kid might make_

I also saw an arguably-too-informal response from the author _which completely
failed to address that problem_ , noted he saw it fit to publish in a blog
promoting "workshops on how to attract and keep young talent" and thought
_that's the sort of mistake somebody promoting himself as an employer-youth
communications guru really shouldn't be making._

------
bluedino
Am I the only one who doesn't find that job inquiry via text not that bad?

There's no text or AOL-speak. In fact, it's worded better than most emails I
receive at work. The author and the college kid have what seems like a pretty
informal relationship. It's not like he's texting back some HR person he's
never met!

~~~
wizzard
What I find grating about it is that it's worded like he thinks he's a hot
commodity and is expecting Vance to woo him. And telling him what your rent is
going to cost... wow.

~~~
DanBC
Maybe wow, or maybe "I respect you, and don't want to waste your time. I'm
grateful for the opportunity. But, this is my rent and I must make that much.
So, if this drudgework that you're finding isn't paying that much please don't
waste any more of your time."

------
swalkergibson
This article is ageist.

Communication problems and impolite behavior cross all generations, it is not
just limited to Millenials.

"Step 3. Remember, Millennials have been raised on a steady diet of
compliments and praise."

Is this not true of every generation?

To me, this whole article reeks of "kids today" type angst.

~~~
freehunter
I would say that almost all of the non-specific things hold true for every
generation. It doesn't matter if you were born in 1920 or 1990, young people
come into a situation with a different mindset than the previous generation.
Without the shackles of "that's how it always has been", of course they'll be
able to better see ways to improve efficiency. Of course they'll tell you if
they're unhappy (because they're not used to being unhappy about it yet).

It doesn't have to be "how to talk to millenials", it's "how to talk to young
people". Let's wait for the repost in 20 years and see how much things change.

~~~
manmal
Exactly. From an evolutionary viewpoint, the next generation _has_ to act
differently. That's (reportedly) how the human race spread so far across the
globe - youths who were not satisfied with their parents' place went somewhere
else, finally ending up in the far north.

~~~
cmsj
We have no idea the demographics of those who left Africa, or why!

------
acjohnson55
I think what this comes down to is that if you're a young employee and you're
interested in being seen as a rising star, you've got to have a lot of
cultural awareness. You should be able to combine an ability to leverage new
technologies and work patterns to your relative advantage while also being
able to assimilate into established structures. The fact that I was raised to
adhere to traditional corporate culture has been an asset my entire career.

I had a good friend, my same age, who worked at the same company as me, and he
didn't have the benefit of a strong cultural pre-education. As a result, he
made a number of gaffes in etiquette that collectively hurt the perception of
his seriousness in the workplace--things like pranks, being to "familiar" with
people, silly voice mail greetings, etc. All these things you can get away
with if you're knocking it out of the park, but if you're a regular, competent
employee, you're going to find yourself passed over for leadership in favor of
people who are a bit more culturally aware, all other things being equal.

It's a complicated world. Why should a well-written text message be worse than
a well-written e-mail? I'm sure there are several reasons, but the point is
that it's not something most young people consider. In today's global,
connected, and rapidly changing world, we have choices between many mediums
for communication and constantly have to code-switch for different audiences
(especially if you're a minority, but that's a whole other topic). The folks
who are going to rise are those who are very in-tune, either by intuition or
education, with the connotations of the communication and presentation choices
they make.

------
famousactress
I find the tone and content of this article wildly obnoxious. It addresses the
entire situation from a place of undeserved righteousness. _These pesky kids,
how do we let them know that we've already decided how business people ought
to act permanently?_ I have mental images of this guy firing Zuck for showing
up to work in a hoodie.

Seriously though, the way young people think about personal information,
privacy, and transparency is going to change the way we act at work. I'm at a
startup now where our founders are a bit younger than I am (I'm in my early
thirties). I remember being really surprised and even off-put when I got
Facebook friend requests from them. I was used to keeping my personal and work
life pretty distinct. That wasn't as much the world they lived in. They were
used to the idea of working with their friends. Now it's super normal to me,
and the company really benefits from the fact that we're all actively
interested in each-other's lives. It's a bit of a paradigm shift and you can
like it or dislike it but I think to paint generational differences as
universally 'bad' is really unfortunate and short-sighted.

~~~
otto
I think it is a bit of a generalization to say younger people mix business and
personal lives.

Opposite of you, I'm in my late 20s, the youngest person in my organization;
and I get Facebook friend requests from people in their 40s and 50s that I
only know at work.

Perhaps it is more accurate to say people who do not have the same values in
privacy as you use things like Facebook differently.

~~~
famousactress
I certainly didn't mean to imply that _only_ younger people do.

The overall point I was making is that the world is changing, and it's fair to
point out that it's young people that are the primary agents of that change.
Hell, people younger than you _built_ facebook. I don't think my
generalization was over-reaching.

------
NegativeK
Is there solid research that shows that the Millenial generation actually
holds the characteristics listed in this article?

I know I've seen some of them in my friends, and I've certainly seen a lot of
people reference them -- but common experience doesn't equate to fact. I'd
love to see work that addresses the generalities with rigorous evidence so I
can know whether to lean on them or not.

------
jauer
"They don’t know what texting during a meeting makes others think"

I ran into this recently while wearing my Sales Engineer hat. I use Evernote
on my Nexus 4 to take notes on everything but it clearly gave off a negative
impression. The looks of disapproval ceased after I started using a tablet and
leaving the phone out of sight.

There seems to be a generation gap between people that fully use smartphones
and those who view phones as just phones and tablets as a acceptable
replacement for legal pads and laptops.

~~~
snprbob86
I'm pretty young and would consider myself on the "full use smartphones" side
of the generation gap. However, I still think it's extremely rude to use a
phone, tablet, and yes, even laptop, during a meeting.

There is a very noticeable difference in attention capacity between those who
take notes with paper and those who use electronic devices of any kind.
Devices with a screen tend to draw your attention even when you are not
typing. More importantly, almost everybody can write while looking up and
making eye contact, but very few people can type while making eye contact.
Almost nobody can use a touch screen no-tactile-feedback keyboard without
gazing off into the great glowing yonder. Even if you can type on a laptop
while maintaining eye contact, your shoulders are postured towards your
keyboard and not towards the speaker. Writing with a pen or pencil gives you
much more upper body range.

------
aroman
From step #2:

"One thing that older employees often don’t understand about Millenials is
that Millenials have been rewarded their entire lives for doing things as fast
and as efficiently as possible. Video games, homework assignments,
texting/chatting online, finding fun things in the far reaches of the Internet
all rewarded young people for doing things incredibly quickly.

Very few, if any, points were given for taking time, looking at details,
learning slowly. They have learned that mistakes can be corrected but that
time is of the essence. If you need to change that line of thinking, you will
need to explain to them why they should not value speed above other
attributes, show them their are rewards for slowing down."

As a millenial, this really resonated with me. And I can verify with numbers
(read: test scores) that this line of thinking is in many ways at odds with a
lot the "conventional" 20th century.

------
ilaksh
OK, so I'm 35, and I don't have much of social life, so I really don't know
the rules.

Now I am wondering, is it really inappropriate to use text for certain types
of communication, or in this case?

I mean, I would consider sending an email for the same thing, just because it
would allow me to take my time and edit my pitch.

A face-to-face or phone call might be be considered more appropriate by some,
but on the other hand, would you really want to have to reject someone face-
to-face if it were the case that you didn't want to give them the job?

I think the idea is that a text is easy to send and doesn't involve enough
effort, so its sort of an insult to use it for that.

I have a feeling that this is a cultural misunderstanding and that texts
should actually be OK for a lot of things.

If he had received a typed snail-mail with the same text, would he be
offended? The only significant difference there as far as I'm concerned is the
vastly greater latency and waste of resources delivering a piece of paper.

~~~
Anderkent
>A face-to-face or phone call might be be considered more appropriate by some,
but on the other hand, would you really want to have to reject someone face-
to-face if it were the case that you didn't want to give them the job? >I
think the idea is that a text is easy to send and doesn't involve enough
effort, so its sort of an insult to use it for that.

Rejecting someone over text is just plain rude, and it gives the impression
that you're trying to avoid them. It's not about the 'easy to send', it's
about asymmetric communication - you want it to be a conversation between the
two of you, not you notifying them.

I'd be just as insulted if I was rejected over email instead of text though.

Exception might be if you're rejecting them before you had any interaction
(i.e. based on CV/written enquiry, not call/interview).

------
Tichy
Why is it inappropriate to communicate about a job for a presumed friend via
text message? I mean I think it would depend on the relationship, maybe the
"kid" just judged it wrongly. Wouldn't calling be much more intrusive, for
example?

Also, perhaps new generations really are not so keen on traditional
employer/employee relationships. And I don't think they are the only way to
get work done.

~~~
VLM
"presumed friend" Even worse from the article the kid is related to him AND is
in his professional network AND thinks they're buddies. (Which aside from all
this "hiring" stuff is going to make the boss/underling relationship a bit
tough on both of them)

I am chronologically older than the article author but much younger in
outlook. None the less, back in the day, I never wrote my dad a registered
letter asking to mow the lawn for some gas money, or similar to my drinking
buddies asking if they're hiring where they work.

------
einai
To me, the biggest problem of this guy isn't his use of text message, it's his
attitude of entitlement "what do you have to offer me?"

I think that since the two have been hanging out regularly for half a year, it
would be acceptable (to me, at least) to ask for opportunities available
politely over text (email would be much better of course), but for him to make
it sound like he's hot commodity and the author is the one who can't wait to
hire him, is just plain silly.

~~~
Anderkent
I think in context (friend said there won't be full time job, but there may be
some drudgework) the 'what you might be able to offer me' is 'what kind/how
much work you have available', not 'what terms can you offer me'.

~~~
einai
Sure, that could be what he meant. However, I still think that asking for
example "May I know what is available?" sounds much better than "what you have
to offer me"

------
njharman
> Step 1. Make sure that what you think is inappropriate has a business reason
> behind it.

What is the business reason behind thinking text is in appropriate method of
communication. I'd be willing to argue anything "in appropriate" doesn't have
a business reason behind it. "In appropriate" is short hand for "in violation
of social norms". And social norms vary by culture, social status, and
tellingly, age.

I'm 42.

~~~
angersock
Texting is async, and probably easier than an email.

Then again, for an actual _job interview setup_ , I would've written a polite
email or called and tried to schedule something.

~~~
VLM
Probably distorting the situation from a purely professional relationship in
the provided article, was the kid working his relative AND working his
professional network AND working a guy who could be his future boss. I've
talked to relatives at parties about work, and I've talked to ex-coworkers at
bars about work, and in both cases it would have been super inconvenient to
run out of the room to a typewriter when the topic came up. I've also talked
to people at users groups and cons.

If you as the boss put yourself across the informal boundary, don't be
surprised if your underling jumps the same formality boundary to meet you.
Actually seems more polite to meet the boss where he's at rather than
demanding the boss move to intense formality.

------
jiggy2011
It's interesting that some communication mediums are considered more "formal"
than others.

SMS messages and emails are just ways of sending ASCII around, but one is
considered more "official" than the other. Of course as time moves on these
expectations change.

For example, in the early days of social networks it would probably have
seemed crazy that serious businesses would be setting up profiles on these and
giving them high priority.

Nowadays I am often surprised by the amount my cooler friends use
facebook/twitter and the like for business dealings and job search.

------
mikestew
As a guy whose wife is trying to figure out what to do for my 50th birthday
party, I would like to ask the author: WTF is wrong with you? A kid you see in
person once a month sends a text about a job possibility that you proposed,
and that calls for a snarky answer and a blog post bemoaning "these kids
today"?

The author grew up without cellphones and social networks? I grew up with a
party line (look it up) and no computer until I was 17, and I fail to see what
the big deal is. It's not like it was some random kid off the street. For my
personal tastes, I'd _rather_ the kid text me than call me.

These kids today, making us real elderly curmudgeons look bad.

------
milkshakes
tl;dr: _Millennials don’t have the same view on authority from above that
seems like the natural world order to older employees_

don't bother looking for examples of actual inappropriate behavior -- the only
examples the author can come up with are text messaging instead of calling,
and getting bored at boring meetings.

~~~
run4yourlives
FTFY: _Millennials don’t have the same view on authority from above that_ is
_the natural world order_

And therein lies the problem, I think.

The world is changing, yes. The people in that world that have changed however
are still very much a minority.

~~~
milkshakes
I'm not sure I understand the point you're trying to make.

~~~
run4yourlives
My point is that if you want to become successful, you need to adapt to the
reality that exists.

The faster you learn this, the better.

~~~
milkshakes
Thank's for clarifying. I respectfully disagree that deference to the status
quo, existing authority structures included, is the only path to "success".

I'm not advocating going against the grain for its own sake, but I would
happily argue that the process of innovation is itself rooted in a deliberate
choice to reject the reality "that exists" in favor of the reality that could
or even should exist.

Furthermore, I'm not entirely convinced that the "reality" you are describing
is in fact aligned with highly productive work environments, especially for
creative and technical companies. The companies I have been exposed to the
internals of along my path have all valued contribution over conformity, and
focus on empowering their employees to contribute more, not nitpicking over
decorum.

~~~
run4yourlives
I don't actually disagree with you at all.

What I would say is this:

85% of the time, things are done in a certain way for a reason; people have
discovered through experience that a particular method is best.

As someone "new" to a situation (regardless of age), deference to the
established norms is a requirement for success, namely because you are too
ignorant to identify that 15%. I don't care how brilliant you are (or think
you are) wisdom often only comes with experience, and experience takes time.

Getting back to sweeping generalizations - this is something I think
Millennials are particularly poor with. While for most other generations, the
ability to think outside of the box is rare and prized, Millennials seem to
forget that someone a lot smarter than them established the box in the first
place, likely for a very good reason.

We establish things like decorum - as mundane and limiting as it may seem to
you - because experience has shown that a lack of expected decorum can result
in conveying a poor impression where such a conveyance is not intended.

------
languagehacker
I think the real jerk in this story is the author, since he abruptly decided
that a person who believed they were friends had to bow and scrape to him once
he started asking about a job. I'm roughly the same age as this guy, and I
just think he's just being crotchety.

Maybe his spirit has been beaten down through years of happily taking people's
BS at some fascist workplace, but not every company is like that.

_Your_ workplace culture isn't a good fit for this person. Quit speaking for
the rest of us, dude.

------
caseorganic
The problem with categories like 'millennials' is that it generalizes an
entire generation of people and makes it easy for people not within that group
to say rude and untruthful things about an entire set of people. Instead of
trying to understand where a group is coming from, it makes it easy for people
to simply brush off any differences as inappropriate instead of understanding
where a group might come from.

I've hired plenty of what you might call 'millenials', many via text, and they
have been some of the hardest working, most professional people I've ever
worked with. I've also been courted for an exceptional job via text, Twitter
and Facebook. The hiring manager was in her 40s, and she understood those
interfaces better than I did.

Hiring should be very personal, not cold and professional. Hiring is about
getting to know someone that is the right fit for the team so that the hire
brings passion and cleverness to the table. Even at a larger company this
should be the case.

Hiring is changing, and has changed for many people. I don't think it's fair
to force people into what someone somewhere considered a proper 'hiring
process' if you end up hiring someone from a piece of paper and not for who
they are. This kind of process can cause companies to lose talent,
flexibility, and ultimately money.

I'm not suggesting that everyone hire in the way I do, but in the way that's
most suited to the person you're trying to hire. Having empathy and attempting
to understand and respect people on a case by case basis is important,
especially when you'll be working closely with them.

I'm not a 'millennial' or whatever generalization buzzword some individuals
use to make themselves feel more comfortable with the uncertainty of different
people in a workplace, but I work with people of all ages and understand each
of them as an individual, not as a generation. I communicate in the format
they are most comfortable with. I text my boss, who is two generations above
me, and email some of the more formal, younger members of our team. The
college student in this post is not in the wrong in his communication methods.
I understand that the author may be trying to teach him a lesson, but it's not
that cut and dry across all industries, especially tech.

------
columbo
[http://www.hotel-
online.com/Trends/CarolVerret/GenerationY_N...](http://www.hotel-
online.com/Trends/CarolVerret/GenerationY_Nov2000.html)

> Eric postulates that because their earliest influences have been television
> and Nintendo, they are “stimulus junkies”, easily bored. They are skeptical
> with well-developed garbage detectors and desensitized, which means that
> respect isn’t yours by virtue of your title. Eric says, “They crave the
> limelight, having noticed that fame comes to many for simply being in the
> right place at the right time and they are blunt and expressive. The good
> news is that all of this stimulus has made them adept at multi-tasking, fast
> thinking, passionately tolerant in terms of diversity and astoundingly
> creative.” ~November 2000

------
iguana
TL;DR: get off my lawn!!!

------
rileytg
Wasting your time to write this article was the real mistake.

~~~
ewest
I agree - a thinly veiled slam against young adults and the changing nature of
communications.

They're both somewhat in the wrong, yet the author should have been more
mature in the approach as well as the blog post.

------
CapitalistCartr
I turned 50 last month. When I was young I loved doing things as fast as I
could. Video games has nothing to do with it, obviously. It was youth and
testosterone. This has nothing to do with Millennials, and everything to do
with teenagers not knowing manners at all. I had friends when I was a teen who
didn't know. If a kid knows good manners and doesn't use them, its simple to
tell him to flip to the good stuff. If he doesn't, its nearly impossible,
although I did see the Military did pull it off.

------
willholloway
The author expects us to be outraged that a text message was used to inquire
about an opportunity for "...some drudgework that might be good for a resume
and could bring in some spare cash."

The real outrage is the entitlement of the author and many employers enjoying
the slack labor market.

Millennials have been handed a very raw deal by their elders.

------
taproot
Writing a blog about it and linking them in skype probably not the best way to
do it. Just sayin.

------
VLM
"Step 4. Be prepared to have your feedback to be politely/blatantly rejected."

Wikipedia was an interesting choice for an example, but I'd think the
explosive growth of advertising would be a better example. Also political
extremism... someone smart enough to be stuck on either extreme recognizes
that something distasteful, like extremism, or perhaps a negative review, is
fact, probably meaningless.

