
Ask HN: How well does unlimited holiday allowance work in practice? - konamicode
Asking from the point of view of the employee: how many days a year do you actually take as annual leave? Please provide company name or country if possible. Asking for a friend.
======
decebalus1
You'll most likely not get a definite answer because it can range from very
bad to very good depending on both company and team.

I don't want to mention my current company to keep my anonymity but we
currently have unlimited vacation and at least for my team it's going great
but it's mostly because of our direct manager who encourages us to:

a) track and document our work so that when someone leaves on vacation the sky
doesn't fall b) take as much time as needed to unwind

I personally took about 6 weeks of vacation (double the amount of policy based
vacation I got at my previous company) in the past year and things at work
have been stellar. We delivered, kicked ass, whatever you want to call it and
with zero guilt. But my company is well known for great work-life balance.

However, I can't say the same about other teams where peer pressure keeps
people in their seats.

I am personally very cautious about 'unlimited vacation' plans because if you
do a game matrix you'll realize that it's skewed against the employee and
you'll end up in a better place only if the stars align just right. If they
don't you'll end up working way more and either you'll never have 'approved'
vacation by your manager or you'll never ask for it because passive-
aggressively the culture frowns on 'slackers' who take time off.

If vacation time matters to you (and It definitely should) before accepting an
offer I would ask the hiring manager for the actual number of business days
the team members use for vacation. If he/she brushes it off or is handwavy
like 'nobody keeps track' (somebody ALWAYS keeps track) then stay away.

~~~
apohn
>>You'll most likely not get a definite answer because it can range from very
bad to very good depending on both company and team.

This matches my experience. I disliked unlimited vacation because my manager
at the time was a massive workaholic overachiever and I felt guilty taking any
vacation. I usually ended up at ~2.5 weeks a year because I traveled overseas
and traveling to the other side of the world for a week was not feasible. I
felt like 2 - 3 weeks was typical for most of the people in the company. Some
people would do that by just taking multiple very short vacations throughout
the year, which seemed like an awful idea to me.

Even in the groups with good managers, you were one re-org away from a bad
manager and vacation time going away.

If you have a good manager and work in a place that has accrued PTO, I
seriously doubt the manger is going to care if you take some extra personal
days throughout the year and don't record them. So you get something like
unlimited vacation with the nice guarantees of accrued vacation.

------
byoung2
My coworker left to go work at LogicMonitor in Santa Barbara, CA
([https://www.logicmonitor.com/careers/](https://www.logicmonitor.com/careers/)).
Back in 2013 (not sure of the current policy) they offered unlimited
vacations, and a $1000 bonus if you took a full week off and did not check
email or do any work while you were out. He described it as a dinner
buffet...in theory it looks like you could eat 10 steaks and 20 pizzas, but in
reality even though it's unlimited most people stick to the same portion sizes
they would at a regular restaurant because your stomach is still the same
size. He said that for him the big 1-2 week vacations were still limited by 1)
cost, 2) his wife's work schedule, 3) kids' school schedule. The one
difference that having unlimited vacation made is that people didn't have to
lie about being sick all the time to take 1 or 2 days here and there.

~~~
p1esk
How does your friend like working at Logicmonitor? Any issues?

~~~
byoung2
I lost touch but in the first 2 years he said he loved it, and it was the best
job he ever had. A current check of LinkedIn shows he left but I don't know
the reason.

~~~
p1esk
Interesting. Thanks!

------
joeld42
For me it was super stressful and made it really hard to plan. What I did was
decide how much leave I wanted if this were a "traditional" system, discussed
that with my manager informally (he still wouldn't give me a straight answer
but I got to a number that he seemed to be okay with), and tracked the
vacation and sick time myself in a spreadsheet.

One thing I did notice is that it seemed very hard to get more vacation as a
more senior employee.

I think it's less about flexibility for the employee and more so they don't
have to keep everyone's unused vacation on the balance sheet and in the bank.
Also they don't have to pay out that unused vacation when you leave, so if
you're tracking it yourself, try not to "accrue" a lot of vacation. The
reality of "unlimited vacation" means you will probably take around the same
amount as someone at a traditional setup, but it will be more frequent shorter
vacations and you're less likely to take like a month off for a big summer
trip.

I've also seen this system (perhaps inadvertently) take advantage of people
with workaholic tendencies or people that tend to feel a lot of peer pressure
to support the team, and "unlimited vacation" can mean "no vacation" for some
folks.

~~~
mrguyorama
"Unlimited" vacation without requiring a minimum is a negative thing. It means
that instead of "earning"/accruing vacation and spending it how you want, you
have to ask permission for every little use. Instead of the company owing you
your fair vacation use, they now have an avenue to discourage vacation use and
encourage a culture of limited vacation use.

If a company truly cared about their employees, they could always just double
the accrual rate of paid time off.

~~~
borplk
bingo! "unlimited vacation" is a scam.

------
kraftman
I'm sure some companies are doing it properly, but I think for the most part
it's 'unlimited holiday if you get the work done', which turns into 'holiday
if you get the work done', and there will always be enough work that it never
gets done.

At previous company we switched to the 'unlimited holiday' policy, I asked my
boss what the real limit was and she said if it was anything over 27 days (the
previous amount before being 'unlimited') then the manager would have to sign
off on it, which basically wouldn't happen.

I'm experiencing a similar thing at my current job where when I asked what the
office hours and lunch hours were I couldn't get a straight answer, it's kept
intentionally vague so that when it gets to 5 you don't go 'well I'm off home,
bye!'

------
gricardo99
It sounds like a way for employers to cut benefits/costs.

If you have PAID vacation, that you accrue, then that's something you get,
regardless if you take it or not (of course there are usually caps on how much
you can accrue). If it's "unlimited", I guess that means there's no accrual,
and if you take no (or minimal) vacation and leave, your vacation benefits
were effectively reduced.

I think "unlimited" vacation is a gimmick to sound generous. If you want to
offer a generous vacation policy, then stand behind it as an actual paid
benefit. Offer it as paid vacation, and if the employee doesn't take that much
while they work for you, then hopefully they use that banked paid time to take
a break between jobs.

~~~
conductr
I’ve experienced the best of both. Company policy is paid so it accrues.
However I’ve never submitted any time off. So I’m always fully accrued, cash
it out regularly, and I still get to take unlimited time off.

This only works with the right manager and proper managing up. It keeps the
team happy so the manager is willing to bend the rules a little or look the
other way. Also, one bad coworker can screw it up for everyone so we kind of
make sure we’re not keeping track of each other.

------
noetic_techy
From what I've heard from people in companies that have implemented it, it
basically devolves into "you can take off whenever your want but... we really
need you here due to crunch!" Basically it turns into a game of guilting
people NOT to take any vacation time. Having guaranteed off time that can be
scheduled well in advance and flexible working hours is way more reassuring.

In my opinion, why not just be way more generous in how much PTO time
employees accrue? If European companies can still function with employees
taking up to a month off why is it such a big deal to be generous in this
category?

~~~
jcadam
My preference would be for a reasonable amount of PTO coupled with unlimited
sick time, so getting the flu doesn't force me to choose between either giving
up my planned summer vacation or coming into work sick :)

~~~
majewsky
As a German, I find the concept of "sick time" baffling. When I'm sick, I go
to my doctor and get a note that allows me to stay away from work until I'm
healthy. Employers are required by law to continue paying the full salary for
at least 6 weeks, or longer if the employer chooses so (e.g. 6 months at my
employer). After that, one receives sick pay from the health insurance (70% of
the last salary).

Actually, it's even better at my employer. When I feel like a cold is coming
on, I just shoot a e-mail to my manager and stay home. I only have to submit a
doctor's note at the third day of continuous absence. The manager does not get
to argue against your staying home, although I guess that question would be
asked if one would abuse this policy. Managers are generally supportive of the
policy; they don't want sick people spreading their diseases to their
colleagues.

~~~
ben1040
I worked for a US company that gave you an accrual of one sick day every
month, with a maximum accrual of 120 days on the books.

Sick days could be "verified" by presenting a doctor's note when you come back
to work, or unverified, although you could only take up to five unverified
sick days per calendar year.

If you should use _no_ sick days in a given calendar year, regardless of
doctor's note or not, you would earn an additional vacation day for use in the
following year.

This set up a perverse incentive -- suppose you get sick, use some sick days,
and bring back a doctor's note with you for it. You've lost your free vacation
day for the next year, and you still have 5 allowable "unverified" days. You
may as well now just "call in sick" on a few Fridays here and there to fill
out your unverified sick day allowance, and give yourself some three day
weekends.

------
ben1040
Worked for a (now defunct) Silicon Valley company that did this. My experience
also really turned me off to the whole idea.

The problem was that it was not clearly defined across the company how much
vacation was too much or too little, and even if you hear one thing when you
get hired, a reorg can put you under someone with a totally different
viewpoint. Meanwhile, in companies I've worked without unlimited vacation,
it's clearly defined how much vacation is too much, because you can't use more
than your bucket.

My first boss was the one who hired me into the company, and when he called me
to present the offer, he told me that as a European he felt people in the US
don't take enough time off and he wanted us to do 4-5 weeks a year. At one
point mid-summer he told me "I don't think you've taken enough time off, it's
slow next week, so go have the week off and take your kid to the pool a lot."

That boss left the company, and I got reorged into a team that was pretty much
the remnants of a startup that my employer had acquihired. The company was
pushing this team to develop and release a particular new product concept
ASAP, but giving minimal staffing to do so, so it was constant lowgrade crunch
the whole time. The manager (and former founder of that startup) was also
still operating in startup-hustle mode and setting the sort of example that
while you technically get time off, you'd best not be taking a whole lot.

I worked under each boss for a year. Under manager 1 I took 4.5 work weeks off
in 12 months. Under manager 2 I took 7 days off in 12 months.

Not a lawyer but I imagine that companies don't provide more guidance on
_minimum_ vacation time usage, because maybe that could be construed as a
bucket, and would put you back under the idea that in certain jurisdictions
(California included) vacation accruals are viewed as compensation duly earned
by the employee but not paid out yet. Avoiding having to carry that as a
liability on your books and pay out when people separate, as I understand it,
is the primary purpose behind unlimited vacation policies in the first place.

------
nfriedly
USA. When I was at Sociable Labs, unlimited vacation worked out pretty well
for me. I took around 4-5 weeks most years. Typically a week or less at a
time, although I'd do a 2 weeks around Christmas and I think I took one 2-week
trip during the summer.

Some of my colleagues weren't very proactive about it, so after a couple of
years, the manager started assigning folks a week off here and there if they
hadn't taken much vacation recently. I think something like this is a good
idea.

I'm now at Tanium, and they have unlimited / self-directed vacation, but I've
only been around for a few months, so I've only taken a day or two off.

They told me that most folks take 4~5 weeks a year here also, and I have seen
a couple colleagues take vacations where they were wholly unreachable for a
week or more.

My first job out of high school did _not_ have unlimited vacation, but I took
the month of August off (unpaid) my second year there - that was nice.

~~~
maxxxxx
"I have seen a couple colleagues take vacations where they were wholly
unreachable for a week or more"

Is that unusual? When I am on vacation I never check my E-mail. They could
send a text but that never happens.

~~~
nfriedly
I've seen it both ways. I think the "wholly unreachable" version is more
common, but I've definitely seen people take "work-cations".

~~~
exolymph
I think the higher up in the org you are, or the more you serve as a
bottleneck for productivity (e.g. because of unique skills), then the harder
it is to take a truly 100% off vacation. The terminal example is a CEO — I'm
sure most CEOs would cut a vacation short if a real crisis came up. That said,
it has to be an actual crisis. If coworkers are bugging you about routine
stuff on vacation, that's a bad work environment.

~~~
maxxxxx
If you are not ever able to take vacation because you are so important that's
a sign for bad organization. In reality sometimes people are off for months
because of sickness and I have never seen this being a real problem. People
pick up quickly.

------
JBReefer
It works OK, but there's two situations where it can go bad:

1\. (Uncommon) People take off during crunch time

2\. (Very common IME) People take off en masse during lulls, leaving a
skeleton crew to handle blowups.

3\. No vacation payout during layoffs

If you do 1 just to get out of work, you're a crappy coworker. People do 2, to
be team players, but it can result in large waves of low staffing. 3 is a
natural result, which is a major financial downside - the upside, of course,
is that you can take much more vacation, and many do.

Even with the above, I like it. You can take mental health days and deal with
family issues without that feeling of "begging for forgiveness"

~~~
antris
>If you do 1 just to get out of work, you're a crappy coworker

Good coworkers work so that crunch time never comes up. Crappy coworkers shame
others who refuse to participate in unhealthy work/life balance.

~~~
praneshp
> Good coworkers work so that crunch time never comes up

This is a very bad argument. The launch of a product is a critical time,
whether you like it or not.

Edit: Replaced crunch with critical, I don't think I understood the meaning of
crunch.

~~~
antris
It is if you're late from schedule. I've launched products with 0 days of
crunch time

~~~
theptip
That should always be the goal, but slips do happen, sometimes through no
fault of anyone.

------
lhorie
In my company, in practice it means around 4 weeks with standard accrual. Had
a coworker that wanted to go to Japan for 3 months, and the condition for
approval was that the other 2 months would be unpaid sabbatical. IIRC, he
ended getting part time pay for a some of that time due to on-call duties. I
took my vacations in chunks and went a bit over by a few days. Vacation
approval is at the discretion of the manager, and mine is pretty lax about
accrual, as long as work is getting done overall. I hear in some teams, people
need to be told to take _more_ vacations than they do (workaholic younguns, I
guess).

We disable publishing to production during end-of-year holidays to minimize
risks of outages (though of course you can break the glass in case something
does break)

I work at Uber, in San Francisco.

------
jcadam
My current workplace has "unlimited" vacation. You have to request days off in
advance, which your supervisor can approve/disapprove.

However, once you reach 4 weeks (160 Vacation hours) you have to get VP-level
approval to take any additional time off. And the vacation hours tracker
resets at the end of the Fiscal Year.

So, basically, unlimited means 4 weeks per year tops, and you have to get it
approved in advance. I don't really care for it.

~~~
dragonwriter
“unlimited”, from all accounts I've seen, seems mostly to be a way to put a
positive spin on “you have no balance that accrues or can be cashed out or
used as terminal leave, but its still just as limited for most employees as
would be common at similar firms with limited policies. Plus, we’ve got a
built in way to play favorites without violating the on-the-books policy
should we decide to do so.”

~~~
borplk
Almost all of these things companies brag about are like that.

Same thing with open offices.

In fact whenever you see companies praising something so much trying to
convince people it's such a wonderful thing, follow the money and it always
leads to something that is only good for them and that's just their propaganda
machine trying to get everyone to repeat it.

------
Symbiote
This is mostly disappointing. I'd assumed this was a very special benefit, and
meant 8-10 weeks off per year!

My contract gives me 6 weeks, which is pretty standard in Denmark, and fairly
standard in Europe. I use all 30 days, every year. I spread it around, not
more than 2 weeks at once, but others take 3-4 weeks off during the summer.

I can only see one comment (praneshp) where more than 30 days has been taken,
and many where 4 weeks was the unwritten limit. There's no country in Europe
with less than 4 weeks holiday entitlement! [1]

(If I'm sick, that's separate, and has no effect on my holidays. Except if I'm
sick on holiday, then I get the holidays back to use some other time. I would
need a note from my doctor to do this.)

Has anyone worked in Europe and then at an American company with the unlimited
vacation policy, and taken more holiday than they were previously entitled to
in Europe?

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave_b...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave_by_country)

~~~
maximp
> 8-10 weeks off per year

That would be a dream. I don't know anyone who enjoys this much time off
(other than people running their own shops/startups)

------
tejasmanohar
I've worked at Segment.com for the last ~2.5 years. We've had an unlimited
vacation policy ever since I joined, and I take 4-6 weeks off annually. Our
only policy that I'm aware of is to keep your team posted and not leave gaping
holes while OOO.

Frankly, I _really_ like it this way. I would _not_ like to go back to
tracking vacation/sick days, check-in/out times, WFH, etc. I appreciate the
mutual trust the team has that people will work hard while in the office and
stay away enough to sustainably enjoy life and remain productive.

I'll add that I only think this sort of arrangement works if there is strong
trust and leadership is a top-down role model in taking off time responsibly.
I've never been asked to take time off, and I don't know that anyone has, but
I've also never been asked not to.

That said, I can also see this not working if you're shy about asking for
things that aren't explicitly handed to you, then this system may not work as
well. I'd be curious if anyone here has felt that way? :)

~~~
maximp
Are you guys hiring at Segment? I've been keeping an eye out on the company,
and things like this are really encouraging to read.

------
harryh
In general, based on personal experience, I am not in favor of this sort of
thing for tech companies beyond a certain size (perhaps 50 or so). I think it
creates a situation that is ripe for misunderstandings and bad feelings. I
used to think otherwise, but as I worked at companies that grew from tiny to
moderately large I have definitely witnesses a threshold beyond which things
start to break down.

We all know that "unlimited" does not really mean unlimited. No one is
randomly taking off for 6 months to go walk the appalachian trail or whatever.
So what does it mean? About as many days off as you would have had under a
typical plan? Maybe with a few extra? But no one is really quite sure. So
different people will inevitably have different interpretations which leads to
bad feelings when one person takes 10 days off a year while another takes 25.

It also puts managers in an impossible situation when people complain. They
have no rules or guidelines to point to in order to enforce any sort of
standardization. After all, it says "unlimited." What are they supposed to say
to the person who takes off for an entire month one summer while everyone else
is hard at work pushing that new release out? We have enough guilt conscious
style management as it is. There is no need to add more.

There's also the issue that if you aren't tracking days then exiting employees
don't get paid off for unused days. I consider this a real problem as well.

I know it screams "we're a big company" but just suck it up and acknowledge
reality. Past ~50 you are a big company. It's high time you act like one.

Ultimately paid time off is a form of compensation. Would you accept this sort
of loosey-goosey attitude about how much cash or stock you are being paid?
Probably not. So what is different about PTO?

------
praneshp
My last two jobs have been unlimited PTO, and going forward, it's a
requirement for me.

Last job (Godaddy in sunnyvale, one of the nicest places I've worked in)
didn't have any tracking. For 3+ days you emailed manager and team. Current
job's the same, except you enter 3+ days in a software. At both places, I took
~20 days to go to India, and another 20 days at least rest of the year. More
importantly, my manager can expect me to take a day off after a long night of
pages.

At previous jobs, the 20 day India trip had to be reduced, or some unspoken
agreement with manager, because I had 15 or so vacation days. I'm too spoilt
now to handle that shit again. I haven't come across a mandatory minimum, but
I take off a healthy amount anyway and I'm unimportant enough that the team
can make do with 10 months of me.

------
RickS
USA. It has mostly to do with personality. People who can take 4 weeks in
South America and not feel guilty do, and appear to have a great time. I
typically take normal holidays (two weeks for xmas, a week here or there
~twice a year).

I think the best way to stave this off would be to have a mandatory minimum
time. Eg, we have unlimited PTO but you have to take at least 4 weeks this
year, or n days a quarter, or something like that.

Not sure if it's legal to do that.

edit: another point that someone else brought up is that you can take
sick/mental health days often and with ease. This is very true, and is a
benefit I've enjoyed a lot.

------
maximp
Small but well-known NYC startup. Disliked the policy strongly, and nobody
would give me a ballpark of vacation to take when I interviewed and after I
joined. There was a huge discrepancy in how much vacation people took, which
left some feeling resentful. A couple more senior employees took 4-5 weeks a
year; most people did 2 weeks, with some pushing it a little more - 2-3 weeks.
Anytime I asked HR, they encouraged me to "take as much time as I need", but
the work was nonstop, and my manager wasn't happy anytime I took time off.

------
RamshackleJ
Unlimited Vacation is the same as saying Unlimited Salary, its total BS.
Without set guidelines in your employment contract of what PTO you get in
exchange for working there it creates a drawn out negotiation between you,
your manager and your team of how much vacation you actually get.

Its just better to know for sure what PTO you are entitled to in your
employment contract. Would you accept a job without knowing what the salary
was? Keep in mind that vacation days are something that you are EARNING in
exchange for your work.

~~~
ben1040
Great blog post bringing this comparison up about unlimited salary (original
version seems gone now):

[http://archive.fo/ByJ8X](http://archive.fo/ByJ8X)

It really makes sense -- you wouldn't leave it up to your line manager to
decide ad hoc "well that daycare for your kid is too much for you so I won't
approve," your salary is your agreed-upon compensation.

------
bg4
In my experience it has a chilling effect on actual vacation taken. The real
driver is not having to pay an employee for earned, unused vacation when they
leave the company.

~~~
skookum
> In my experience it has a chilling effect on actual vacation taken.

This was exactly my experience in two very different environments with an
unlimited vacation policy - one start-up, one large established company. The
overwhelming majority of people took less vacation than what is typical at
most tech companies and a handful took quite a bit more. The latter handful
tended to be strongly correlated with people who were underperformers and the
underperforming was, at least from my perspective, not due to less time but
more down to a mix of general attitude and motivation. The former majority
tended to be worried about perception and/or unsure of what was appropriate
and thus tended to take less vacation than they otherwise would have.

------
leonagano
Hi, I'm running
[https://stretchyourannualleave.com](https://stretchyourannualleave.com) where
people enter the number of days they like to book and the site calculates the
maximum number of days off you can have, using public holidays and weekends.

What I notice is, people are looking to book 5, 10 and 15 days off and
especially at the end of the year.

------
bsvalley
It is not part of the employee benefits because it doesn't exist. Can I take 2
months off in a row under an unlimited time-off policy? No. Why? Because I
would "disrupt" a project or a team. Can I take all my Friday's off? Nope...
work weeks should be 5 days not 4. That's what unlimited holiday means to me.
So when a company says we have unlimited time-off policy I usually run away.
Liars!

------
cagey
One year ago I returned to work at a large'ish SV company that, in my absence,
was acquired and in this transition was converted from "PTO accrued at an
annual rate that increased with seniority" to "unlimited vacation [as long as
your manager agrees]".

It didn't take much thinking to realize that "unlimited vacation [as long as
your manager agrees]" is purely a way to screw the employee (who regresses to
the mean of however much time they tend to habitually take off per year
(having subconsciously ignored that they won't be repaid in cash for those
lost hours of time off when they leave their company), but now additionally
"has to beg" for time off rather than the time off being something they've
earned) while also removing the liability of the accum'd PTO they owe
employees from their books.

The claimed justification that "tracking PTO is an added accounting cost"
rings totally hollow: all employers I've worked for in my 20 year career had
automated systems in place to track this info; in my current gig I'm still
required to enter my hours worked per project every week into the same old
automated system (into which I used to also enter PTO consumption), so it's
not like they lack the systems to track this information with minimal
effort/overhead.

As another comment mentioned: this and "open office" go hand in hand: IMO the
employers all get together (AEA? etc) and learn about the extra-normal
practices of the "edgier" employers, select those that save the employer $$$
(regardless of consequence to employees), and adopt = normalize them (while
marketing them internally as modernity incarnate: "this new system is SO MUCH
BETTER than the way things used to be back in the bad old days; don't you
agree?").

------
fapjacks
In _most_ of the companies I've worked in with this policy, it ended up being
a net negative. One place I think did it right, but I'm not sure how much of
that was by design. People err on the side of not taking PTO, and everyone is
always looking around at what everyone else is doing to see what's "normal",
which adds a layer of stress to it. I mean of course it's a policy smell where
"unlimited vacation" is just a way to get more work out of employees, or if
there's actually some secret, behind-the-scenes value judgments being made
against those rotten slackers for taking time off. But it seems to be one of
those small ways that startups turn the screws on employee benefits. But
actually at one of the places I worked, the CEO and the CTO took regular PTO.
I mean of course the ship wasn't rudderless, but I'd say they took liberal,
European amounts of PTO under the no-vacation-policy policy. This was actually
a really useful kind of "lead by example" that showed they were trying to
actually have a cool "unlimited vacation" policy. Their big thing was that as
long as the work was getting done, they didn't care about butts-in-seats at
all. Incidentally, that's now the standard by which I measure all other
companies. Anyway, I think it is largely not a good idea, and the only time I
would ever say it was a positive thing was as part of a broader pattern of
excellent management. Like the "unlimited PTO" policy working out positively
to the benefit of everyone was just a side effect of having great management
in the first place. If I ever start another company, I'm just going to hand
out 20 days of PTO and be done with it: It's sufficiently large that it's as
impressive as "unlimited vacation" is supposed to be, but without all the
hidden baggage that usually comes with it.

------
sldfjnsdlfk
Sounds good, doesn't work. The fear of taking too much time off makes the
conscientious not take enough holiday to maintain a healthy work-life balance.
Others take advantage and "are off on vacation again" making the hardworking
people bitter and resentful. Unlimited isn't the answer, flexible and
accommodating, while accountable, is.

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handbanana
Depends on the comnpany. It can mean 15-20 days PTO at some, can mean 30-40 at
others. What you must remember is, there will be those who take more PTO than
others, and some who take less. Be the person that takes more than the
average, make it clear during hiring your PTO expectations. And be sure to
take a lengthy amount of time off in the first 6 months of employment. Tell
them about this prior to signing on. I have done this twice. It has worked
both times. If the company is uncomfortable with the notion of at least 28 PTO
days, or you taking 15 PTO days 2 months after getting hired. Then its a red
flag IMO (assuming they led you to believe they had splendid PTO)

Company I work at doesn't seem to notice/care if people take off 35-40 PTO
days, not including the paid holidays they also provide. Not many do this,
though. Most people take 15-25 PTO days. Only one other person I know takes
30+ like I do

~~~
maximp
> be sure to take a lengthy amount of time off in the first 6 months of
> employment. Tell them about this prior to signing on.

What's your rationale?

Out of curiosity, are you an engineer?

~~~
handbanana
Well, if they are OK with the time off before you sign then it shows they do
value time off. And I like to set the tone with new employers - they can
expect I take off a decent amount of PTO. To be clear, I've only worked for
employers who advertise their PTO as very good/unlimited.

As to your last question, yes.

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rconti
Only been in my current role for 7 months; due to an acquisition I'll never
really see how it plays out. Small startup, I was 'told' 2 weeks/year even
though it's unlimited. Turns out you need a higher level of approval for more
than 2 weeks at once which is a buzzkill because I prefer to take 3 week
vacations when I travel overseas; that said, I've heard of employers who make
using too much accrued PTO at much (eg, more than 2 weeks) difficult. So, IMO,
it depends far more on your boss and the culture of the company than whether
it's 'unlimited' or accrued PTO.

Ultimately I've taken 3 days in 7 months and am trying to swing a 3 week
vacation in September.. we'll see, I guess. It makes planning a bit difficult
any time you need extra approval for 'too many weeks' in a row. But I've
always been a big believer in taking lots of vacation.

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cimmanom
How well? Better than 10 days/yr metered PTO. Not as good as 20-25 days/yr
metered.

I probably average 15-20 days/yr, with some guilt after the first 10 - which I
wouldn't have if more PTO were explicitly allocated; but my boss seems fine
with the amount I take.

Reference: small to medium companies in the US.

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66d8kk
I've never experienced this myself directly. However I used to work at a
company who now does this. I still have many silo'd friend groups at that
company (who don't even know each other too well - designers/devs/sales) and
the general consensus when I'm out with each group is that "it's a trap".
There appears to be a negative vibe a kind of undertone where people will
question others (to them selves not openly) and the hierarchy. Admittedly the
trust was never great at this company but from my third party view point I
would absolutely not like it. Culture would play a huge part though and
unfortunately in this case the unlimited leave was a marketing/recruitment
angle so was pretty much always set for failure.

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wink
Totally guessing but if we're talking about the US, I think the Europeans that
have worked in Europe before won't have any qualms taking their 24-30 paid
vacation days per year whereas the Americans might be inclined to stick to
what they know and take their 2 weeks. All based on hearsay, so this might as
well totally be wrong :)

My point of reference is when I had my first job with "we don't count your
hours, you just need to do your job" I still kept mental tabs on my hours and
it took years until I really didn't care anymore and just eyeballed it. (How
can you even tell when "your" work is done? Especially if you work in sprints
or with a kanban board)

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vorpalhex
United States here. I've worked at two companies that had this kind of
unlimited policy.

The first one not only did I end up taking less vacation then I would of, I
actually had my manager get mad at me for using more than two weeks of leave.
I no longer work at said place for a myriad of reasons.

The current one is pretty good. I definitely need to be proactive about it,
but I've never been denied or guilted. Last year I used a bit over 3 weeks (so
about normal for my field), but this year I'm planning to use a bit more
because I have a few different places I'd like to visit. It definitely took me
some mental effort to get past my natural tendency to avoid taking off.

~~~
maximp
> get past my natural tendency to avoid taking off

It's not that I don't WANT time off - it's that I'm afraid it'll backfire. I'd
take months, if I could.

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theptip
The best system I've seen is a well-tracked generous allocation of N days per
year, with the option to buy or sell 10 days per year. I think this is the
fairest way of doing things; if you don't care for vacation then you can
increase your salary, and if you want more vacation you can pay to get it.

In practice the "unlimited vacation" seems hard to scale beyond a small team,
though in that case it can be made to work. It relies on trust, which I'm
skeptical would scale to hundreds of people.

That said while you're small I think teams can get away with it if management
lead by example and actually take good chunks of vacation.

------
allsunny
I work for a reasonably large (500+ engineers) software company in San
Francisco with "unlimited vacation." I take between 4-5 weeks off a year
(20-25 actual days off). It seems pretty typical amongst my colleagues.

------
philwelch
It's a mechanism to reduce the amount of bookkeeping HR has to do with
vacation hours, with the added benefit of not having to pay out any vacation
hours when an employee leaves.

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projproj
I have this with my current employer. The problem I see si that when I ask for
time off, it feels like I'm asking for a favor. Might just be my superiors. I
kind of wish it were more like "I have x number of days off left for the year,
I'd like to take some of those in October." I still get a generous amount of
time off each year, but it's awkward every time I make the request.

edit: Check out mrguyorama's comment. They said what I was trying to say in a
much better way.

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notahacker
Had vacation limited to 28 days plus national holidays once and struggled to
use it due to the demands of the work. But I had a _right_ to arrange it,
which in one case meant taking four day weeks for six months. Wouldn't have
asked for the same thing if holiday was an "unlimited" privilege granted at
the whim of line managers.

If you want actual unlimited holiday, become a contractor and get used to
taking as much _unpaid_ time out as you like, provided you can afford it.

------
donohoe
I don't think it works any better/worse then limited vacation days.

The difference IMHO is that companies that paid out unused vacation time when
you left no longer need to.

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Myrmornis
USA. I’ve worked under an unlimited vacation policy for 8 years. It’s
fantastic, I’ve been able to do lots of trips to places I wanted to visit, and
in addition can always see my family at holidays, and can always take time off
when people visit me. I’ve never been denied or frowned at for taking time
off. But I enjoy my job and my colleagues enjoy theirs, so people work hard
without compulsion.

------
itsmejeff
The Nash equilibrium for an unlimited vacation policy is no vacation for
anyone.

[https://www.amazon.com/Algorithms-Live-Computer-Science-
Deci...](https://www.amazon.com/Algorithms-Live-Computer-Science-
Decisions/dp/1627790365/ref=nodl_)

------
zellyn
Joining (the Atlanta office of) Square, I was very nervous that “Unlimited
Vacation” actually meant “No Vacation”. It hasn't turned out that way: our
office has a good work-life balance.

I would still expect that that is not generally the case.

~~~
maximp
> good work-life balance

could you put an average # of vacation days on that?

~~~
zellyn
Nope. Haven't tried.

~~~
zellyn
Note: Good for the USA.

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eip
If I had unlimited vacation I would pretty much just do 4 day work weeks.

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noemit
I've experienced being denied time off excessively, no vacation payout (even
if I didn't even take 2 weeks), strict rules about when you can take time off,
for how long, etc.

Overall bad.

~~~
rconti
To be fair, I've heard of employers who make it hard to use accrued PTO as
well.

~~~
noemit
True. It’s about culture ultimately. Unlimited PTO doesn’t mean good culture
or bad culture automatically.

------
Gustomaximus
Has anyone used 'unlimited vacation' to work a 4 day week. Assuming work
suitable, I'd be tempted work a longer Mon-Thur and take Fridays off.

------
gberger
Palantir. 28+ days.

