
Chef CEO Defends Contract with ICE - mbbennis
https://blog.chef.io/2019/09/19/chefs-position-on-customer-engagement-in-the-public-and-private-sectors/
======
notus
Terrible response, companies totally can pick and choose who they work with
and who their customers are.

> I want to be clear that this decision is not about contract value — it is
> about maintaining a consistent and fair business approach in these volatile
> times.

Doublespeak for, this decision is 100% about contract value.

I am interested more in the former employee that removed the ruby gem though.
Cool form of protest IMO.

~~~
shakezula
exactly, especially when the sentence before it mentions he worked with their
executive team to make the decision.

This is entirely about money.

> former employee that removed the ruby gem

I hadn’t heard of this, do you have a link to that by chance?

~~~
notus
Here is the developer's statement: [https://github.com/sethvargo/chef-
sugar](https://github.com/sethvargo/chef-sugar)

Article: [https://www.zdnet.com/article/developer-takes-down-ruby-
libr...](https://www.zdnet.com/article/developer-takes-down-ruby-library-
after-he-finds-out-ice-was-using-it/)

Note this is the same developer who left Chef in 2014 because he received
death threats from their open source community.

------
gavanwoolery
For the record (if it matters) I am very pro-immigration and pro-immigrant
rights, but I don't think denying chef services to ICE will actually do
anything - let me explain.

Lets look at this from another perspective (couldn't hurt, right?). I am a
company that sells paper.

Some companies might use this paper for very bad things (printing out
patents?).

Do I comb through all my clients and determine what they are using the paper
for? Doesn't seem to make sense, and worse yet, it seems like an entirely
subjective process. Who says which companies are "good" and which are "bad" ?

When I stop selling paper to an entity, they will just find another paper
provider. I have not really done anything meaningful aside from signalled my
intentions, which I could do more effectively in other ways (lobbying, etc).

~~~
JoshTriplett
Paper is an interchangeable commodity with many suppliers. Specific software
products often are not.

Furthermore, there's a difference between "someone bought this commodity from
a distributor" and "we have a contract specifically with this entity".

~~~
commandlinefan
If every paper company got together and denied service to ICE, then ICE would
be forced to limp along without paper. They wouldn't cease to operate - even
if they wanted to, they couldn't; that's not up to them. They would just
operate inefficiently. It would be frustrating to the DHS officers, but
actively detrimental to the immigrants in their custody, slowing things down
even more. Unless you actually believe that immigration law shouldn't exist or
be enforced, you should be happy to work with ICE to help them process
detainees as quickly and efficiently as possible.

~~~
JoshTriplett
"If we don't sell to XYZ someone else will" is not an argument to keep selling
to XYZ, unless you already agree with (or are indifferent to) XYZ and their
activities.

"XYZ is doing bad things but it'd be even worse if they did bad things less
efficiently" is not an argument to keep selling to XYZ, unless you already
agree with (or are indifferent to) XYZ and their activities.

Making an organization less efficient, or otherwise slowing an organization
down, is not going to single-handedly stop it, but that doesn't make it
pointless or counterproductive.

For the concrete example here, you haven't provided evidence that "less
efficient" or "slower" applies only (or disproportionately) to activities that
stop hurting people rather than activities that hurt people.

Also, you've created a false dichotomy, dismissing the existence of people who
agree with portions of a branch of law but disagree with how that law is
enforced.

------
badrequest
> to be clear: I also find policies such as separating families and detaining
> children wrong and contrary to the best interests of our country.

"I simply have all the ability and none of the desire to do anything about it"

~~~
commandlinefan
I can see where he's coming from: if he refuses to do business with ICE
because he disagrees with something they're doing (whether he or they are
actually wrong), he's implicitly endorsing every aspect of every customer he
does choose to do business with.

~~~
tenaciousDaniel
Also committing to scrutinize the internal business practices of every future
partner. It's easy enough to point at ICE and say that they're actions don't
align with your values. But you're setting a precedent for your company - one
that will be very hard to live up to down the road.

~~~
maxwell
You don't see the divide between those who operate concentration camps, and
those who do not?

------
jmpman
I’m genuinely curious - what is the government supposed to do with illegal
immigrants before they’re sent back home (after asylum hearing). Are they
supposed to be put up in apartments? Barracks? House per family?

I’ve heard that people disagree with the immigrants current treatment, but I
expect there’s a spectrum of accommodations which people would consider
acceptable.

I haven’t considered the logistics and legalities of housing adults with
minors who may or not be their actual parents. Do they need to be separated? I
suspect there’s a complexity which I don’t appreciate.

~~~
atonse
What typically happened in the past is that most migrants have family in the
US. So they let them into the country while they’re being processed. They are
given a court date and can continue to live life here until that court date.

What probably happens often is that these folks don’t show up to their court
date, because they never planned to. By then they’ve already assimilated into
the local economy with no papers.

Some middle ground seems in order here. So yeah I’d say we don’t separate the
families and find other ways to track them, either keeping them in a refugee
camp (together) if the numbers are hard to manage, OR using some kind of
technology to track them while you release them until their court dates.

The key here is that we are a civilized nation of laws, and it is simply cruel
to separate families, especially when the kids have done nothing wrong but tag
along with their parents. They’re given essentially a life sentence through
trauma that they may never shake. And that’s just cruel and unusual punishment
in any circumstance, let alone given to an innocent sort of accomplice.

------
apolymath
I am pro-ICE, pro-immigration, and anti-human-trafficking. Ice separates
children from human traffickers and parents alike. Human traffickers bring
children to the U.S. for sale by the tens of thousands every year. We should
praise ICE for their commitment to protect children & their families who have
traveled to America illegally. If they want to seek refuge, they should use
our immigration system to seek refuge instead of sneaking into our country.

~~~
robertfw
Praise, for putting people in camps with inadequate medical care and inhumane
treatment? I'll pass on the praise,thanks

~~~
sdinsn
So isn't the solution to improve the medical care and treatment?

How is removing a library for a DevOps program going to do that? Isn't it just
useless virtue signaling that won't actually have any effect?

~~~
nojvek
Everyone has a right for what they believe. Removing a library does as much
effect as someone protesting on the street with a sign holding what they
believe.

Like that 13 year kid (can’t rememer name) alone in front of parliament on
school strike with a sign. Then more kids joined. Now entire cities are like
Melbourne have massive protests for school strikes.

Suppose developers of Google, Microsoft and Amazon all protest against ICE and
refuse to work for a project their involved, it’s a big signal.

But reality is money can buy most people’s souls.

Kudos to the guy.

~~~
lazyasciiart
Greta Thunberg

------
RickJWagner
I am pro-immigration and wish for every immigrant to be given a good shot at
great opportunities.

Chef did the right thing. It's not up to individual employees to sabotage
company assets because of their own political viewpoints. I hope that employee
is thrown in jail.

------
McSwag
This is a case that could set a precedent for other companies and is worth a
good debate. I believe it comes down to values. Here's a simple example to
explain.

Suppose I am a CEO of a consulting firm. I have a client who pays us a lot of
money and have had a good relationship with for years. Now suppose I've hired
and brought another person to meet this client for several months. The
meetings seem to go well but (let's say 9 months later), Another employee
brings to my attention that the client had been consistently harassing the
person I hired to manage the account.

I now have two choices, re-assign the person I just hired or "fire" the
client, permanently ending the relationship. What are the values of my
company? That's the question that needs to be asked. What's the right thing to
do?

If I choose to re-assign the person I hired, I would not be addressing the
problem, not holding the client to the same bar I would have for my own
employees. I'm telling the client and my employees that I value the contract
more than them and more than the values of my company. The side effect is that
it reinforces the bad behavior.

This is essentially what has occurred in this scenario. Except the harassment
is not towards Chef's employees it's towards civilian children and their
parents.

Having said that, companies don't always get it right the first time but it's
our job to inform them of their error. Executive teams often are flooded pools
of confirmation bias where dissent rarely occurs. I don't think "combing" is
really necessary but like anything else, when the spotlight shows up. It's
usually in the company's best interest to distance itself.

[edit: fix grammar]

------
paggle
This whole thing has gone too far. By “thing,” I mean that every action of
every person, past or present, must inform all future interactions with any
other person or entity. It’s a problem caused by the information we have today
(who would have known this in the past?) but the end result is that we as a
people are more divided and isolated from all people other than those who
share our worldview exactly.

------
kylek
Well, this seems more effective than a toothless walkout at least. I'm not
sure what to think of this really. Does the axed employee deserve praise? What
legal ramifications will he/she be facing for the act?

------
IdontRememberIt
Seth Vargo works now at Google Cloud. Will he break it next? Is Google Cloud a
risk for our company?

------
IdontRememberIt
Where is the limit? Linux is certainly used somewhere by criminal rings to
sell drugs killing children. PHP is certainly used by criminal groups
advertising escorts victim of human trafficking.

Are open source projects now at risk? Will phpmyadmin break because an
antispecist contributor discovered that McDonalds is using this tool? Will
ubuntu break because an anti-vaxxer contributor has discovered that GSK is
using this os?

~~~
slooonz
Or when some right-wing pastry cooker will discover than the wedding cake he's
making will be used in a same-sex marriage ?

------
mychael
This is a very professional and tempered response supported by reason and
sound company values. I applaud the CEO for not giving in to the mobs.

------
tr33house
Regarding the deleted Ruby gems:

I think it's unprofessional for developers to try and bring down production
services just because they disagree with a company move. It's also a bit
immature. The thing to do in this case is to quit. Down your tools and quit,
but don't destroy the hard work of your teammates and betray the trust of all
your investors and customers.

~~~
viklove
I think it's our moral imperative to prevent our work from being used for acts
that betray our values. Take a second and remember that the gas chambers used
by Hitler to inflict a genocide were designed by engineers. I think we all
agree that those engineers should have sabotaged their own work to prevent
harm coming to the victims of the Holocaust, and it's very surprising to me
that you're defending _profits_ and _investors_ over moral values.

~~~
Porthos9K
I'm not surprised. There are a _lot_ of techies who took Ayn Rand a little too
seriously and think that profits are themselves a moral value, and that
investors are somehow beyond reproach by virtue of their wealth.

I might paraphrase Rand to suit my purpose as the Devil quotes Scripture, but
I have to say that for such an ardent atheist, Ayn Rand's worship of wealth
and those who possess sounds a lot like prosperity gospel.

Then again, if you're trying to get a startup off the ground or hope to work
for a rising startup, it probably isn't smart to bite the hand that might feed
you.

------
gremlinsinc
> "I want to be clear that this decision is not about contract value — it is
> about maintaining a consistent and fair business approach in these volatile
> times. I do not believe that it is appropriate, practical, or within our
> mission to examine specific government projects with the purpose of
> selecting which U.S. agencies we should or should not do business."

So if this were 1940, and he lived in germany would he gladly continue doing
business w/ the country knowing they're gassing jews?

I mean it's the government they always have our best interests in mind right?
We should always support the government we live in no matter what right?
Seriously? Without question?

This CEO is obtuse, and probably shouldn't be running a tech company.

------
dredmorbius
_Concentration camp, internment centre for political prisoners and members of
national or minority groups who are confined for reasons of state security,
exploitation, or punishment, usually by executive decree or military order.
Persons are placed in such camps often on the basis of identification with a
particular ethnic or political group rather than as individuals and without
benefit either of indictment or fair trial. Concentration camps are to be
distinguished from prisons interning persons lawfully convicted of civil
crimes and from prisoner-of-war camps in which captured military personnel are
held under the laws of war._

[https://www.britannica.com/topic/concentration-
camp](https://www.britannica.com/topic/concentration-camp)

------
maxwell
[https://github.com/sethvargo/chef-sugar](https://github.com/sethvargo/chef-
sugar)

~~~
ace1309
If my Infrastructure code includes only chef recipes and chef objects, will
this yank lead to breaking changes(even though we don't use chef sugar)

------
RickJWagner
Gee, what about companies that supply things to Planned Parenthood?

There are a lot of people that think PP is immoral (especially given the
origins in eugenics). Should employees of those companies rise up and try to
harm their employers, too?

For the record, I am against such action. Firmly against. Politics is personal
and should not extend beyond your personal rights.

------
throwawaysea
Good. Businesses passing judgment on their customers due to public pressure
from vocal activists is not a good precedent.

~~~
robertfw
You make it sound like this is some squeaky minority pressure group, as
opposed to people making the bold claim that perhaps we should not be holding
children apart from their parents in camps with despicable care standards
including lack of basic medical care.

------
ng12
Good. Every company which refuses to work with ICE makes their job more
difficult. That's not going to make ICE go away, it's just going to increase
the likelihood that they make beaurocratic mistakes (e.g. detain US citizens),
inappropriately secure their data, or a million other little operational
failures.

------
yalogin
This is actually a tough thing to deal with for executives. I can see some
black and white issues like providing software to the Chinese government or
some other authoritarian regime like that. In the US where the government only
lasts for 4 years would it be prudent to sever ties like that? Software and
services contracts are meant to last longer than (hopefully). So the slot once
gone is gone. Also, the same people who are with ICE procurement will be there
after Trump leaves. Will they be willing to talk to them later on? Even if the
government's agenda changed, chances are the personal agendas of the employees
in ICE have not. So how should that impact the decision making? Would it not
be better to provide funding to causes you (or the employees) believe in
rather than severing ties with organizations when its within the US?

------
frakkingcylons
I took the liberty of invoking Godwin's Law and re-purposed this template, it
should make you consider how weak this statement really is.

""" While I understand that many of you and many of our community members
would prefer we had no business relationship with the Third Reich, I have made
a principled decision, with the support of the IBM executive team, to work
with the institutions of our government, regardless of whether or not we
personally agree with their various policies. """

~~~
shakezula
I believe you’ve hit the nail on the head with this.

This is the most accurate and succinct way to show how this looks.

~~~
ng12
Godwin's Law is supposed to demonstrate the reductive nature of comparing
everything to Nazism, it's supposed to be a logical fallacy.

~~~
dredmorbius
Mr. Godwin would like a word:

[https://web.archive.org/web/20170814022147/https://m.faceboo...](https://web.archive.org/web/20170814022147/https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10154965671861483&id=1)

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/12/14/...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/12/14/sure-
call-trump-a-nazi-just-make-sure-you-know-what-youre-talking-about/)

~~~
ng12
I don't think you can retroactively change the meaning of a point you made
decades earlier.

~~~
dredmorbius
Get back to me in a quarter century.

~~~
ng12
Fair enough -- and if I claim that my statement doesn't actually apply to
specific future circumstances in a way that supports my current personal
beliefs feel free to ignore me.

------
Porthos9K
Having read this, I think that Barry Crist's use of "my country's government,
right or wrong" in defense of supporting Trump-era ICE's indefensible methods
proves that an old adage still holds true.

"[false] Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." \--Samuel Johnson,
1775

Barry Crist thinks he is doing the principled thing, but I see him for what he
is: the most despicable of cowards, a man who has the power to help change the
world for the better, but chooses instead to uphold a profitable status quo.

Any person of conscience working for Chef should resign in protest
immediately.

~~~
rmah
That's not what he's saying at all. He's saying that Chef is in the business
of providing devops software. They're not a government watchdog. They're not
the ethics police. They're not political or social activist organization. I
fail to see the problem. Finally, not selling chef to ICE won't change
anything.

~~~
Porthos9K
I bet that's the same sort of sophistry that allowed IBM's management to
justify doing business with the Nazi regime.

I know what Crist is saying. And it smells like self-serving bullshit to me.
He doesn't want to do the right thing as a human being and as an American
citizen because it would cut into Chef's revenues and upset the company's
shareholders and investors.

As far as I am concerned, this is unforgivable moral cowardice. As soon as I
learned that Accenture was taking ICE blood money, I quit without notice and
lived off my savings for three months until I could find another job at a
company that didn't profit from human rights abuses at the hands of the
Federal government.

I'm just a middle-aged college dropout who doesn't even make six figures, and
I still managed to do the right thing as an American and a human being. What's
this guy's excuse?

~~~
rmah
Pretty much every tech company, hundreds of consulting firms, dozens of
construction firms, etc, etc do business with DoHS and ICE. These are huge
organizations with thousands of employees that buy products and services from
thousands of suppliers. Everything from software to sock. Are you gonna get
angry with all of those companies too? And what about the DEA, FBI, NSA, CIA
and DoD? They all do things that some Americans consider evil. And they all
buy from the hundreds of tech firms big and small. Everyone from Amazon to
Oracle. From HP to Cisco. It just seems mean and petty to pick on Chef to me.

~~~
Porthos9K
> It just seems mean and petty to pick on Chef to me.

I'm picking on Chef because somebody ought to, and it might as well be me.

There isn't a word I could say that would actually harm Chef, so they do not
need your concern.

