
Master Card, Cisco, and Scotiabank Join the Enterprise Ethereum Alliance - 52-6F-62
https://entethalliance.org/enterprise-ethereum-alliance-becomes-worlds-largest-open-source-blockchain-initiative/
======
dpc_pw
How pointless.

The whole point of Bitcoin was to have uncensorable, decentralized asset that
can be used to exchange value without any trust etc.

That is the only reason we endure this utterly shitty and inefficient
blockchain thing, and we exchange money for this otherwise pointless online
points.

I have no problem with ETH as cryptocurrency / smart contract platform. But
this whole Enterprise Ethereum Alliance is just one big BS. Etherum community
is trying to pump ETH value by associating with brand names, and corporations
are trying to pump their stock value by presenting themselves as innovative.
BS - empty words and marketing gimmicks. Just read through that page.

Just watch Blockchain vs. Bullshit:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMEOKDVXlUo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMEOKDVXlUo)

~~~
subway
Enterprise Ethereum has almost nothing to do with Ethereum the public
blockchain, or crypto-currency. Ethereum based blockchains (that is based on
Ethereum the software, _not_ the canonical global instance of that software)
provide an ability to create an auditable log of events.

Those events might be "who accessed my credit card account and when" or "who
requested access to my health records and when". These chains can exist
entirely independently of of the global "Ethereum" chain, and can operate
entirely without the concept of a crypto-currency (aside from using it as a
scheduling mechanism within your blockchain cluster).

People need to stop getting hung up the cryptocurrency aspect of blockchains.

~~~
hudon
> Ethereum based blockchains provide an ability to create an auditable log of
> events

If all they want is a log of events, why not use a tried and true database
whose performance is more well understood? MySQL, Cassandra, whatever.

You can add the ability to audit the tables by signing data updates with
public key crypto.

~~~
subway
By using a blockchain, you enable auditing organizations to participate in the
authentication process. For instance, I might publish a private message to the
blockchain that is an authentication request to resource X. A smart contract
would then act on that authentication request, and publish either an ACCEPT or
REJECT message. By bringing auditing organizations into the blockchain, every
authentication attempt is sent to the auditing organization before access is
granted.

The key is that every transaction must be made known to the auditors before it
is acted on. By logging to a traditional db, you're at the mercy of the party
responsible for sharing out those logs.

~~~
hudon
Here is your schema:

DATA | auditor_sig

\------------------

Now:

a) Assume 3 components: client, server, auditorService

b) How to write to server:

    
    
      1- client sends DATA to auditorService
    
      2- auditorService signs DATA and returns S(DATA)
    
      3- client writes (DATA, S(DATA)) to server
    

c) How to read:

    
    
      1- client reads (DATA, S(DATA)) from server
    
      2- client verifies S(DATA)
    
      3.1- valid? -> continue
    
      3.2- invalid? -> delete DATA from server
    

There are ways you can configure this to make either of these services have
more weight (I made the server weak in this setup), and you can also give read
access to everyone if you want it to be public (and only a subset of clients
get write access). You don't need a blockchain.

------
abrkn
At this time, there are 78 comments to this post, none of them addressing
technical concerns. Quite unusual for HN.

I've devoted my life to cryptocurrency since 2011 and still question whether
or not this system even makes sense. It seems too expensive with the
technology we have today. Once privacy, such as zk-SNARK, is added, it becomes
unreasonable.

Perhaps this is what a bubble looks like. I wasn't there for the dotcom boom.
Loss of critical thinking.

~~~
vm
Really intrigued by your comment!

Could you elaborate on what drives the high cost? Or what would need to change
for this to viable?

~~~
hudon
Decentralized validation and ordering of transactions is expensive. In
Bitcoin, it requires:

1\. Miners to validate 1MB of transactions every 10 minutes

2\. Users to be able to confirm that the entire chain of transactions was
properly validated by the miners

Some ways to make #1 more efficient make #2 more difficult, so they are
somewhat at odds with each other. For now, we're looking at a write throughput
of between 1tps to 20tps for Bitcoin and Ethereum.

If you don't care about #2, then you don't need the mining model anymore, or
even a blockchain. You can just put all your transactions in MySQL, Cassandra,
R3 Corda or whatever and you can subsequently crank up your transaction
throughput. You can get >10,000tps with MySQL.

------
Asdfbla
Always surprises me a bit because it seems to me like those large corporate
players don't necessarily need all the features offered by Ethereum (or
Bitcoin), especially proof-of-work, since there's enough non-adversarial
cooperation between them that a simple distributed ledger with traditional
(efficient) consensus mechanisms would suffice for most of their applications.
They wouldn't have to deal with the drawbacks of Ethereum's very strict threat
model.

I'm curious what applications they have in mind, or if they maybe just
participate to get in on the hype and explore their options.

~~~
PretzelPirate
Those companies are using Ethereum without PoW in their private networks. They
plug in a different consensus model.

~~~
bo1024
I don't understand what you mean by this. To my understanding, the companies'
transactions/data are either on the Ethereum blockchain or not. Do you mean
that they are using some other type of distributed ledger algorithm
unconnected to Ethereum?

~~~
patrickk
You can use the Ethereum project code to speed up and reduce the cost of
development, since a lot of man-hours has gone into R&D by the Ethereum
foundation (you fork the codebase). Ethereum is open source, anyone can do
this. EEA members will likely run private, permissioned blockchains, likely
using proof of stake or some other energy efficient consensus mechanism.

When you use a private blockchain, I like to think of it as being a bit like
using a corporate intranet vs the public internet. It's disconnected, but it's
possible at some point that data will flow across the public Ethereum
blockchain if it's in the members' interest.

For example, imagine a private, permissioned blockchain using proof of stake
for the insurance industry[1]. Since it's permissioned, only the major players
get invites, and since they know each other, trust is higher than on a public
blockchain. Each player has a certain number of shares/tokens, used to
validate transactions. They use this to streamline their business. At some
point (purely speculative on my part) they may wish to share information with
some other entity who is not a part of their private blockchain. It's possible
that data from the private blockchain could pass along the public Ethereum
blockchain at this point, perhaps to an external auditor, regulator, other
financial institution, etc.

[1] There is a proof of concept in this vein-
[http://www.swissre.com/reinsurance/insurers_and_reinsurers_l...](http://www.swissre.com/reinsurance/insurers_and_reinsurers_launch_blockchain_initiative.html)

------
Veelox
It seems like Ethereum is getting a lot more industry support than Bitcoin
ever did.

If Ethereum continues it looks like it could kill off Bitcon, the looming
possibility of a hard fork might be contributing make that happen really soon.

~~~
jerguismi
Is this industry support, or more collaborative research project like R3?

I have talked to some bank representatives, and while they have been testing
ethereum technology, they do it on their private chains on their private
networks. No word of production use. In general banks seem to budget a lot of
funds towards various r&d activity, on which majority of stuff never ends up
anywhere.

~~~
52-6F-62
It's industry support for this particular implementation of blockchain tech,
which seems to have a validating effect on the larger community surrounding
it.

There have been talks/speculation about interaction between the public chain
and private chains in an analog to internet/intranet relationships -- that is,
being of a common protocol.

~~~
jerguismi
The question is, do they use or plan to use this technology in production? I
very much doubt that, at least anytime soon. However great opportunity to pump
the price :)

~~~
52-6F-62
I suppose it depends on whether or not their work with other members of the
EEA produces anything viable. If not, c'est la vie. It's a step in that
direction, though.

I think it's definitely a plus to have industry-experienced groups
participating in looking into whether or not the tech is worthwhile. (It's
kind of the Jobs-mind to the Wozniaks who dominate the space presently)

------
Animats
Where are the press releases from Master Card, Cisco, and Scotiabank about
this? Press releases of "big company partners with little company", coming
from the little company, are always suspicious. It may just mean "they signed
up for our mailing list".

~~~
QML
Seems like they're doing a separate press release.

[1]
[https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/6o2o3d/comment/dk...](https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/6o2o3d/comment/dke47x0)

------
Torai
> The EEA describes itself as a standards group designed to help enterprises
> build their own interoperable technology, mostly using private versions of
> the ethereum blockchain.

Ether price soaring right now, but isn't Master Card's bussiness direct
competition of the public Ethereum blockchain as a payment system?

~~~
wuliwong
I have always thought that but it just crossed my mind that credit cards are
basically just terrible loans. You could still give out loans in
cryptocurrencies. Maybe Master Card could just switch if a particular crypto
currency gained wide adoption. They could start issuing new cards with some
sort of technology that allowed for cryptocurrency transactions at businesses.
Or maybe they can use existing card tech, I really don't know anything about
that.

~~~
SomeStupidPoint
What makes them terrible loans?

Also, much of the benefit of credit cards is from the fraud protection and
mediation that companies provide -- it's not so much that they're loaning me
$X00, but that they're covering the transaction details against fraudulent use
and provide a dispute mechanism if don't feel the merchant has lived up to
their offer post payment.

I find it much more likely that MC is trying to be the MC of cryptocurrencies
-- eg, by packaging up a USB dongle that automates transactions using "secure"
means, which they then insure against abuse. From that perspective, ETH makes
a reasonable platform.

~~~
skellera
I think he just meant because it's a 20%+ loan typically. But really a person
shouldn't be holding a balance on a credit card.

------
otto_ortega
Based on this, it seems to me that financial corporations didn't want to take
the risk of decentralized crypto-currencies making them obsolete, so they
decided to create their own crypto-currency, one they can control...

~~~
komaromy
Regardless of your opinions about Ethereum, its origins were decidedly non-
corporate.

~~~
avaer
According to Wikipedia it was started as, and at, a Swiss corporation,
followed by raising a crowd investment.

So it was a funded corporation before it was a cryptocurrency.

~~~
jacoblambda
however that swiss corporation is Ethereum Switzerland GmbH which kinda exists
for the sole purpose of making Ethereum

~~~
cc438
It exists for the sole purpose of benefiting its investors and whoever may be
behind any investment fronts used to push that currency. I wonder who they
might be?

~~~
writtles
The Ethereum crowd sale participants?

------
52-6F-62
I heard the head of R&D (of Scotiabank) talk at a conference a little over a
month ago and at the time he made it seem like Scotiabank had experimented
with existing cryptocurrencies and blockchain tech and were disatisfied and
thought it would be some time before the technology was approachable for their
bank. I guess they were just playing coy.

~~~
sputknick
Or, that statement is true, but the genuinely want to explore blockchain
technology and thought joining the EEA would be the best way to do that.

~~~
52-6F-62
Quite possible. They've definitely obfuscated their hand. Their R&D department
is respectable, I have to say, so I'm sure whatever approach they're taking is
measured.

Seeing as the EEA is primarily a group to coordinate research and development
on this implementation of blockchain tech, it makes sense to join even as an
investigation into it.

------
CalChris
I suppose the Enterprise Ethereum Alliance should be contrasted with IBM and
friends Hyperledger. These are a couple of well backed consortia which from
30,000 feet are similar.

[https://www.hyperledger.org/](https://www.hyperledger.org/)

~~~
2_listerine_pls
What exactly is hyperledger solving?

~~~
jcousins
From what I have seen and read, they aren't solving problems that haven't
already been solved, merely attempting to improve the security and efficiency
of a solution. One example they have touted is their work with Maersk on
tracking shipping containers and their contents in a tamper-proof fashion as
well as providing a way to interact with that data. Will any of this really
result in greater efficiency, interoperability and savings? Time will tell.

------
cmurf
Andhra Pradesh, one of the four who have joined this alliance in the
announcement, is a state of India. Visakhapatnam is its largest city, with
just about 50 million people, more than the state of California.

~~~
dx034
And it's great to see that they're interested in the technology. Blockchain
could be a great way for governments to keep track of data in a transparent
way and could potentially be implemented much cheaper than current database
solutions.

------
spocklivelong
I'm really surprised at seeing Govt. of Andhra Pradesh here. Curious how they
got here in the first place.

~~~
Angostura
Microlending applications?

------
Abishek_Muthian
Title didn't mention the significant partner showcased in the website -
'Andhra Pradesh Government'. The first state govt (India) outside the US to
join the alliance. AP was recently divided into separate state (Telengana) and
lost it's capital (Hyderabad- home to top IT MNC's) to it. They are actively
investing in Fintech, including a new institute for blockchain -
[http://www.apeita.in/blockchain/](http://www.apeita.in/blockchain/)

------
evanvanness
If you'd like an easy way to keep up to date on Ethereum:
[http://www.weekinethereum.com](http://www.weekinethereum.com)

------
lpasselin
What are the advantages Ethereum has over Bitcoin, except faster transactions?

~~~
JumpCrisscross
Better politics, internally and externally. Internally because the community
isn't as hardcore. Externally because it hasn't been publicly associated with
black markets the way Bitcoin has.

~~~
raesene9
As a relative outsider, it doesn't seem to me like ethereum has a great
history of good politics, given the whole DAO, hard fork, eth classic setup
([https://www.cryptocompare.com/coins/guides/the-dao-the-
hack-...](https://www.cryptocompare.com/coins/guides/the-dao-the-hack-the-
soft-fork-and-the-hard-fork/))

~~~
JumpCrisscross
I'm not a fan of the DAO decisions, but reversing a _prima facie_ fraudulent
transaction is uncontroversial in banking.

Bigger than that is the tone with which the Bitcoin communicates. There's that
prominent Bitcoin enthusiast who likes to cuss and scream and demonize
perceived opponents on Twitter. There's another one (maybe the same guy?) who
moderates with a vengeful bias on Reddit. That kind of shit-throwing is
anathema to a large company.

~~~
eriknstr
> There's another one (maybe the same guy?) who moderates with a vengeful bias
> on Reddit. That kind of shit-throwing is anathema to a large company.

Also due to some being unhappy with the moderation of /r/bitcoin there's a
separate community called /r/btc. Then again, there are many communities on
Reddit that have split up due to disagreements about moderation, such as for
example /r/meirl vs the previously vastly more popular /r/me_irl [1]. (The
latter of these still has about 3x the amount of subscribers though, but
/r/me_irl has grown to become large indeed.)

[1]:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/3z2pax/me_irl...](https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/3z2pax/me_irl_vs_meirl_what_happened_there/)

------
45h34jh53k4j
If you are into the EEA, you should check it out its cousin, the Monero
Enterprise Alliance: [https://mea.business/](https://mea.business/)

~~~
086421357909764
I've heard great things about their fungability.

------
whazor
Ethereum itself can be used as a financial language, which can be quite
revolutionary for the banking industry. Instead of using the proof of work
consensus, banks could have their own consensus method. Which does allow for
the order of scale that the real world needs.

------
33W
I see the mastercard logo, but not included in the list.

~~~
tyrust
See this reddit comment
([https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/6o2o3d/enterprise...](https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/6o2o3d/enterprise_ethereum_alliance_becomes_worlds/dke47x0/)):

>AK on behalf of EEA here. Mastercard is indeed a new member of EEA. They
asked not to be in the press release document but approved being on the EEA
official website. They may be doing their own communications on this.

------
wideem
Ethereum as a currency will never go mainstream with a price swings like this

~~~
companyhen
It's still very young, and I think there may be multiple dApps built with eth
that will be used in real life in the next 5 years.

~~~
smnplk
maybe, but hundreds will just sit there without gas :)

------
ComodoHacker
No mention of Master Card. Mods please edit the title.

------
iosDrone
To the moon!

------
jdlyga
It's too bad that Etherium prices are down so much right now from a few weeks
ago.

~~~
hackbinary
Does that make it a good time to buy?

~~~
drcode
It certainly makes "yesterday" a good day to buy.

