
Brazil protests spread in Sao Paulo, Brasilia and Rio - flaviojuvenal
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-22946736
======
cesarbs
Brazilian citizen here, but living in the US. I never thought I'd say this,
but I really wish I was back there to take part in the protests. Brazil
finally has a chance to change for the better.

For those of you who don't know what's going on, or who are being fed
incorrect information by the media: protests started because of a small
increase in bus fares, but that was just the trigger to the whole thing.
Brazilians are fed up with all the crap the government has been doing for
decades, unscrupulously stealing tax payers' money for their own benefit. Many
will say this happens everywhere, even in the most developed countries, but
people from developed countries usually have no idea and can barely picture
how rampant corruption is in Brazil.

Brazil is not a poor country. It's one of the biggest economies in the world.
But if you go down there, it will pretty much look like a poor country.
Despite the strong economy and the ridiculously high taxes, there is very
little income redistribution. Besides the income inequality, another thing
that piss Brazilians off is the fact that everything has to be paid in double:
you pay taxes for public education (even the university is free), but it's so
shitty you have to pay for a private school for your kids; you pay taxes for
the universal health care system, but it's so shitty (dozens of people die on
the line for life-critical procedures) you have to pay for private health care
(which is usually shitty too, but not nearly as shitty as the public one); you
supposedly pay taxes for public safety, but it's nonexistent to a point people
have to leave behind gates (I had to go through 2 gates and 2 doors, with 5
keys in total, to enter my aparment there) and bared windows and pay for
private security companies to secure their homes.

Brazilians have had enough. The current generation of youths is much more
connected and aware of the country's problems, and usually have a much better
idea that the situation outside (read US, Canada, Europe and Australia,
popular destinations for studying or working abroad) is better and that a
better life is possible, and it won't take it anymore. It's finally time for a
change.

~~~
hcarvalhoalves
The so called leaders of the original movement (against the raise in the bus
fares) were on an interview today and negated that the protests are because
"Brazilians had enough" though. [1] They said that even though all the people
are commenting on their Facebook profile for days that it's not about the bus
fares anymore.

The people on the protests are already being manipulated by the original
movement, by left wing and right wing. Even the mass media and Internet
celebrities are capitalizing on it, each claiming the protests to be whatever
they feel like. The swing on the public opinion between last monday and today
is so severe that it is scary, a clear study in group dynamics.

Without an objective, this is more like a massive flashmob than a real
movement. It's also a catastrophe waiting to occur, all it takes is one
radical leadership to pop up.

I hope the people get more critic or this won't achieve anything meaningful,
will just fulfill the ego of the people who went to the protests to have an
Instagram pic of it on their profile.

[1]
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXxQ6ntyM-U&feature=c4-overvi...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXxQ6ntyM-U&feature=c4-overview)

~~~
cesarbs
At least there at thousands of people out there, and the government can see
they won't have it forever. I guess that's the main point of it. It doesn't
matter if the protests started for a reason and turned into something else.
People are fed up, period. They are going out there to express their contempt
for one of the world's most abusive and corrupt governments.

Some are saying they are going to invade the National Congress. I really hope
they do.

~~~
cfontes
Brazilian Living in Australia here. I hope they do too and kick Renan
Calheiros out of it... he so deserves it.

A convicted criminal being the president of a Chamber that represents the
people is one of the biggest shames of our country right now, at least for me.

~~~
iurisilvio
Unfortunately, he is not the only problem here. It will be a good thing if it
happen, but does not solve the huge problem we have in Brazil. The Chamber is
just a sample of our society, the corruption is everywhere.

------
joaomsa
The police aggression is getting ridiculous.

My university is right next to a soccer stadium holding a Confederation's Cup
game. Since the effect of these and other upcoming sporting events on public
works is a major cause of vindication, a large group of protesters tried to
move near the stadium and ended up clashing with riot troops. I was at one of
entrances into campus, when police started throwing tear gas and shooting
rubber bullets almost indiscriminately while yelling that anybody who stayed
was going to get beaten.

------
hcarvalhoalves
I just hope the mass doesn't get manipulated into doing anything stupid,
because the attempts already started.

Left-wing sympathizers (including the original movement) are already
manipulating the protests. A portion of the people in the protests diverged
and tried to break into the state hall (where the governor sleeps). Why, if
the bus fares are controlled by the city mayor? They should be protesting on
the city hall, but they won't, for obvious political implications since the
mayor is left-wing.

Right-wing are also joining the protests now in an attempt to overthrow. The
anti-corruption sentiment of the general population can be fuel to an
impeachment of left-wings in power in the following days.

The media at large is also reporting the happenings in a positive light only.
We all know this can't be good, a functional media is one that shows two sides
of the story, but it seems most media outlets are too scared to disagree.

Finally, the moral judgment already started on the social networks. Anyone who
doesn't join the protests gets alienated. Since social networks amplify
positive feedback only, things are turning into an echo chamber.

Different than other brazilians, I'm not 100% happy the "people are waking
up", I'm actually scared because it's just a bunch of fed up people hitting
the streets without a clear objective.

This has the potential to be really good if the people put political parties
aside and keep putting pressure on important matters in the following days;
but can also be catastrophically bad if radical leaderships pop up from this.

~~~
gverri
Haddad is not left-wing. PT is not left-wing.

They marched to the state hall because Alckimin (São Paulo governor) has the
control over the military police (yes, our everyday police is military), and
after the brutality of 06/13 it seemed only logical.

~~~
andlima
Care to explain why you don't consider Haddad and PT (the Workers Party)
leftists? I totally disagree.

~~~
oscargrouch
they WERE left before PT and Lula get into power.. after that PT and Lula is
much more like center.. not quite left, not quite right..

For America and UK they may look left, but thats because they just have
rightists.. and maintain the other moviments choked and without any voice..

------
tellarin
Another point of view on the protests:
[http://abrazilianoperatinginthisarea.wordpress.com/2013/06/1...](http://abrazilianoperatinginthisarea.wordpress.com/2013/06/16/brazilian-
protests-explained-its-not-the-economy-stupid/)

This started because of a raise in bus fares, but the fact that more and more
people are protesting has a lot to do with police brutality in repressing the
first protests.

Most people in Brazil don't usually protest (nor actually fill complains when
wronged), due to a variety of reasons.

But whenever there is a protest it is quickly classified into either: a) "just
vandalism", or b) "peaceful protests".

For what the media/elite calls as 'a)', the typical Brazilian attitude is
quite weird. Most people in Brazil have this very fascist view that police
should be brutal with "criminals". Whoever they might be. As long as not
themselves.

However, for the rarer cases where 'b)' happens (and is viewed as such by most
people), which was the case here, it might be different. In the current case,
police brutality backfired and became one of the main reasons for the
escalation of protests and its spread to other cities.

PS: I'm a Brazilian citizen.

------
kinow
The protesters passed by my street on the way to Paulista Avenue, and I have
to admit that seeing all those people walking singing the national anthem was
simply amazing. Something to tell my grandsons :)

Last number I heard on the TV reported 75K people in Sao Paulo, though the
authorities told the media that would announce the updated numbers only after
the protests.

The movement leaders have already created a new event on FaceBook, calling all
protesters to gather together again tomorrow, at 5PM on Se Square.

------
InclinedPlane
In Brazil especially it's far more important for these protests to materialize
into organized political action and public debates. Overthrowing the
government of Brazil would be unhelpful, Brazil has something approaching a
functional democracy (certainly comparable to democracy in America during many
parts of its history). That should not be thrown away. And with concerted
political action it can be strengthened rather than weakened, as can liberty.
I fear the temptation of the powerless to exercise power, even in the form of
a violent mob, could outweigh the desire to fight for the deep, long-term
changes that will actually see the country improve.

~~~
oscargrouch
I dont think "America" is a good example of democracy.. Brazil is very
sofisticated in terms of democracy than US is in many levels..

US economical development was in part because the industrial lords could do
whatever they want without many concerns.. here we got more discussions about
social aspects, and more people from diferent ways of views..

You see moviments like ocuppy were really choked by the mass media and the
politics in the very beginning..

People who dares to face against the status quo get convicted as traitors, get
killed or are invited to leave the country (Chaplin)

------
elleferrer
This is an excellent brief overview of the problems in Brazil:

\- No, I'm not going to the World Cup by @CarlaDauden

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZApBgNQgKPU](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZApBgNQgKPU)

------
dasil003
One funny detail about the article I couldn't help noticing: the article talks
about "scaling the roof" of the National Congress building conjuring up an
image of the people swarming over and laying siege to some kind of national
fortress. But of course the National Congress rooftop[1] is one of the most
accessible rooftops in the world being at road-level and visited by thousands
of tourists on a regular basis.

1\.
[https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Brasilia_National_Co...](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Brasilia_National_Congress.JPG)

------
rcruzeiro
I am really proud to see this here. I was there and I can say that it was the
largest demonstration since the military dictatorship era more than 20 year
ago.

~~~
cfontes
What about Color impeachement ? I think that one was bigger...

~~~
oscargrouch
Yeah, but in that time(90's) it was manipulated by the mass media.. now its a
real democratic movement from the people..

And now with the media astonished because they cant control anybody anymore

------
daniloassis
I'm Brazilian and Carioca... I was at Rio's protest yesterday and it was
BEAUTIFUL.

I'm against all kind of violence and vandalism, unfortunatelly we had a few
people that caused a LOT of damage to the city in the very end, but almost
every story you hear about manifestations and protests ends the same way
everywhere in the world... so I leave for each one what you feel about this.

We are just sick of swallowing all the sh*t and public abuses that Government
throw at us and we just complain in silence, this time people went to the
streets and showed that if we manage to organize ourselves and keep pushing
(peacefully, of course), we might achieve something meaningful... like, for
instance, RESPECT.

Send love and support to us, we are needing. :)

------
Iuz
it had to start somewhere

it had to start sometime

~~~
invisiblefunnel
what better place than here

what better time than now

~~~
gverri
It would be a lot better if it happened before Brazil decision to host the
world cup and olympics.

Theres nothing much that can be done now.

~~~
hudell
It took me two year to know we would be hosting the world cup

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foobarbazqux
What does this have to do with Hacker News? From the guidelines:

> Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're
> evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or
> disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's
> probably off-topic.

~~~
danilocampos
Keep. Reading.

> Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate
> for the site. If you think something is spam or offtopic, flag it by going
> to its page and clicking on the "flag" link.

~~~
foobarbazqux
What are the disadvantages to complaining in the actual thread? I understand
about making new submissions for the sake of complaining.

~~~
vacri
Because it always results in the same exchange of dialogue. If you don't think
a post is appropriate, flag it. That does something that might result in
action. All commenting does is consume space for nowt.

~~~
davidw
Commenting also lets people know that a post - like this one - is
inappropriate for the site.

~~~
foobarbazqux
Well, that was my motivation. It's been on the front page for 6 hours now.
Obviously the flagging system is broken for popular off-topic submissions. (We
are all in agreement that this submission is flagrantly off-topic, right?)

~~~
gverri
No it's not. Don't you think it would be on-topic if this was happening in the
USA?

I remember very well all the coverage here about the occupy movement.

So just because it doesn't affect your ass directly doesn't mean it is off-
topic.

Edit: Same thing as all the Turkey Riot threads. Did you comment against every
one of them?

~~~
davidw
> No it's not. Don't you think it would be on-topic if this was happening in
> the USA?

No. It's about politics, and in the mainstream news.

