

Ask YC: What's the most hacker-friendly keyboard? - ComputerGuru

I'm using a Logitech Internet Navigator Keyboard that I got for $6.99 over 5 years ago. Since then I've tried a lot of other keyboards (including some really expensive Microsoft and Logitech models) and found that the flashier they are the less coder-friendly they become and always came back to the same basic keyboard...<p>Which keyboards do YC members use? What's a good keyboard for someone coding/typing 18 hours a day, from a purely tactile-feedback, key-layout POV?
======
jwr
Beware, fellow hackers. Many of us will suffer serious wrist problems. I did,
after 15 years of hacking on various keyboards. What finally got me was 2
years of working on a tiny laptop keyboard (a Japanese 12" laptop).

Sit down in front of your keyboard, place your hands on it like you usually do
when you type. Are your wrists bent? If they aren't perfectly straight, you're
heading for trouble. How much trouble exactly depends on your genes, but
trouble it is.

I found that once you are in pain you very quickly determine which keyboard is
healthy. It's the one you can type on with the least amount of pain. My
personal ranking:

1\. Fingerworks TouchStream. Those aren't produced anymore, Apple bought
Fingerworks and turned their technology into multi-touch screens. They sell
for ungodly amounts on eBay, and for good reasons. Once you get used to the
gestures, you never feel at home on any other keyboard.

2\. Microsoft Natural and variants thereof. Any keyboard that is split in the
middle is way healthier than any straight keyboard.

3\. Any other keyboard that is wide enough so that you can keep your wrists
relatively straight.

The keyboard on a MacBook Pro is what I'd consider the limit as to width -- go
any narrower, and you're certain to hurt yourself.

Be careful, people. If only I could go back in time and tell myself to use
healthy keyboards...

~~~
baha_man
In my personal experience, it's the mouse that does the most damage. If you
use Emacs but switch Caps Lock and Ctrl, you'll be much better off than using
a normal IDE and the mouse.

If you must use the mouse, try using your non-dominant hand. To start with, it
feels strange, but only for a few days.

~~~
silencio
I tend to mouse with my left hand (I'm pretty ambidextrous but more right
handed than left), but my problem is that nobody makes mice for left handed
mousers. Every single one of my logitech mice, especially the one I love (mx
revolution)? For right handed people. Logitech makes like all of one lefty
mouse (not counting the equally lame ambidextrous mice), and it's an old model
I'm not interested in. All the other manufacturers are the same.

The only exceptions are touchpads (obviously), which I switch hands for, and
Razer gaming mice which are nice but not as nice as using an mx revolution for
everyday mousing needs.

~~~
holygoat
I put a large trackball in the middle of my keyboard, or on the left side.
Works great.

~~~
silencio
I've had a couple trackballs throughout the years and they just give me finger
strain to control accurately (thanks, tremors).

What I would dig a lot is some sort of multitouch touchpad like the one on my
laptop, except bigger. I have a 6x11 Wacom tablet that's great but it's not
the same.

Of course, I would love a multitouch display, but those are far off into the
future.

------
aditya
You know, the new apple keyboards are NOT bad (expensive, but very very nice
feedback on the keys)

[http://store.apple.com/us/product/MB110LL/A?fnode=home/shop_...](http://store.apple.com/us/product/MB110LL/A?fnode=home/shop_mac/mac_accessories/mice_keyboards&mco=MTQ0OTA)

~~~
silencio
For some very odd reason, I find myself typing as much as 20-30 wpm faster (so
something like 150wpm-ish with 98+% accuracy, or so the typing tests say) on
the low profile Apple keyboards (I have the bluetooth one, and my MacBook's
keyboard) than on any other keyboard I've used. It makes a noticeable dent in
the time it takes to reply to emails and to get my point across in IM and IRC.

Maybe it's the lesser effort required to press the key. The same effect
happens when I'm playing the piano on certain pianos like that..just so much
easier to play faster.

~~~
wheels
I noticed the same once I finally became a laptop warrior some years back.
Afterwards I switched from clickety keyboards to slimlines on all of the
desktops that I work on. I really do think that the shorter finger distance
makes a difference. Additionally not having a keypad means I can get the mouse
closer to the keyboard, which reduces strain for me.

------
pchivers
IMHO the Kinesis Advantage is the Rolls Royce of keyboards. After having used
it for over a year, I can't imagine going back to anything else.

<http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/contoured_usb.htm>

~~~
mechanical_fish
Yep, the Advantage Pro. The ultimate emacs power tool.

~~~
cstejerean
I noticed I don't usually use the Emacs key bindings for navigation
(C-f,b,n,p) when using my Kinesis keyboard. I use the arrow keys most of the
time since they are located in such a convenient place. I really wish someone
would make a laptop with a similar keyboard layout (even if it's not
contoured, at least keep the split and put the useful keys within thumb
reach).

------
randombit
IBM Model M

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_M_Keyboard>

~~~
jamess
Seconded. I'm still using a 15 year old buckling spring keyboard, they're
robust and they have great tactile feedback. Although if I were working in
open plan, I'm sure the noise would drive everyone else spare.

You can get new keyboards from here:
<http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/cus101usenon.html>

~~~
jksmith
+1

Orig PS2 is what I'm typing on right now. I started out on orig XT/AT
keyboards, which have an even stiffer click, but I had to quit using them
because they're missing F11-F12 keys.

IMO, the orig IBM keyboards are still the best keyboards ever made. Lots of
PS2 keyboards on eBay for a reasonable price, but AT keyboards are going for
150-200 bucks! 20 years pass and computer items start becoming collectible.

------
goofygrin
I carry a Microsoft Natural Keyboard Elite with me wherever I'll be for longer
than a day.

[http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-
det...](http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-
details.asp?EdpNo=443120)

Not the new crappy ones, but the old ones (I've got about 4 and they are all
turning a nice yellow patina).

~~~
silencio
Ohh, I never got used to the split keyboards. I got one Microsoft keyboard (I
believe it was called the ComfortCurve?) that was something between a regular
keyboard and a split keyboard but wasn't split. It was fairly comfortable and
cheap.

I find it impossible to type a lot of things I want to, not only because some
of my fingers are slower than others, but also because I usually do keyboard
shortcuts with one hand, even if it's ctrl+alt+del. It's not easy to do on
keyboards like those :(

------
Hexstream
I use a TypeMatrix 2030 and I love it! Legacy aside, non-staggered keys makes
so much more sense. It only took about 2 days to get used to it. The keyboard
is small and thin so you can have the mouse close and you don't break your
wrists.

I did have to remap some keys because the default layout is horrendous. First,
I use Dvorak but from the OS, not the keyboard itself so I never use the
dvorak built-in to the keyboard. And here are my remappings, in logical-key
--> labelled-key format (compare with
[http://www.typematrix.com/images/newpics/new2030us_640x266.j...](http://www.typematrix.com/images/newpics/new2030us_640x266.jpg)):

    
    
      Left Ctrl --> Bottom Shift
     Shift --> Pg Dn
     Alt --> Pg Up
     AltGr --> Left Alt
     Pg Up --> Right Alt
     Pg Dn --> Right Ctrl
     Right Shift --> F32
    

I use emacs so I use Ctrl extensively, it's great to have it where I put it
because 1. it's very convenient to reach and 2. I don't have to alternate left
and right Ctrl, I always use the same key. Point #2 also applies to having the
shift on the equivalent position of the right hand, this way I can write in
UPPERCASE without having to use caps lock! Having Right Shift as F32 means I
can map it as a normal key in emacs. I write lisp (a programming language
(with (lots of ((parentheses))))) a lot so I told emacs to generate two
parentheses then put the cursor between them when I press F32. Similarly for
double quotes and CTRL-F32. Previously I needed to press 3 (well, 4 if you
count the modifier) keys for that...

~~~
mmmurf
this is a great keyboard... i wish i could get one retrofitted onto my
laptop... i stopped using it b/c switching back and forth between it and my
laptop keyboard was costing about 15 wpm in errors.

------
aristus
The happy hacking lite 2. I use a mouse & graphics tablet, so the small width
helps a lot. I wish it had a separate fn key row, however.

<http://pfuca-store.stores.yahoo.net/haphackeylit1.html> (With default viaweb
store ugliness! :)

~~~
mrjbq7
I couldn't agree more. I use the professional version with the blank keys.

The Happy Hacking keyboards have a great feel (the keys are weighted
individually) and give a good boost to typing speed.

------
icey
I use a Happy Hacking Lite Keyboard. I like the key action on it a lot; but I
do find myself missing function keys and a number pad.

However, the benefit of not having a number pad really shows up if you end up
having to mouse + type a lot - you barely have to move your hand at all.

------
rickmb
In the 20-plus years I've been coding, I never really gave a crap about what
keyboard I worked on.

Currently mostly happen to use the new Apple keyboard that came with the iMac.
Expected to want to replace it when I first saw it, but it's surprisingly
pleasant.

------
kingnothing
I've been a fan of Microsoft's ergonomic models for many years now. I don't
see that changing any time soon, unless something revolutionary comes along.

------
SwellJoe
I have a couple of IBM small form factor keyboards (model SK-8809) from
several years back. It is no longer manufactured, and the replacement model
has laptop style keys which I don't find as satisfying. It's a full 104 key
keyboard, with full-sized keys and all function keys and a numpad, but it's
about 2 inches shorter than standard full-sized keyboards...it brings esc
closer to home (I use vim). Pretty much everything is just closer together,
and so reaching for delete, pg up/down, etc. is nicer. Likewise for the mouse.

And it's an IBM, and though it's not the Model M style of tactile feel, it has
a nice feel. Not too much resistance but not smooshy, either, the way MS and
Logitech keyboards feel.

------
fuelfive
SafeType vertical keyboard. The MS Natural Elite was giving me RSI until I
switched.

<http://safetype.com/>

------
epi0Bauqu
GrandTec Virtually Indestructible Keyboard. I happen to use the glow model:
<http://www.grandtec.com/products/video/vik_glow.html>

It took a little while to get used to it, but now i am quite happy with it.

Also check out: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=126360>

~~~
icey
Are those the flexible rubber mat keyboards? I checked one out previously and
thought it took an extraordinary amount of force to depress the keys reliably.

~~~
epi0Bauqu
Yeah. It is that way when you first start out, but when you get used to it,
not so much. At this point, I don't really make any mistakes and am not
pressing that hard. And it is really quiet.

------
gcv
I use a variety of Apple keyboards, an IBM Model M (wonderful original PS2
model), and an IBM ThinkPad keyboard, depending on which machine I'm using at
any given time. All excellent, especially with the Caps Lock key set to
Control. All non-Apple and non-ThinkPad laptop keyboards I've seen are
horrific, as are all cheap "included with hardware" keyboards from Dell and
the like. Stay far away.

PS: Heed the advice above about keeping your wrists straight as you type.
Avoid the mouse "flick," where you move your right hand to the mouse on the
right (left) of your keyboard and thus flex your wrist slightly to the right
(left). In addition, try ordinary and reverse wrist curls with very light
dumbbells (<20 lbs each), and do them regularly. Will do wonders to keep RSI
at bay.

~~~
gtani
gc: excellent advice on the curls. other wrist strengtheners

<http://www.thinkgeek.com/interests/giftsunder50/6a4b/>

(they need to check how many "Gifts Under $50" cost $59.99

and PowerWeb thing (you need one if you've hired Django or Rails devs!)
<http://www.fitter1.com/Catalog/Category/35/HandWrist.aspx>

------
scorpioxy
I got the Microsoft Natural Ergo 4000(did they start with 1?).

I bought that after my wrists started hurting from being bent on a regular
keyboard. It takes about a day to get used to it and about 3 for your fingers
to get used to the new key placement. But overall, its very comfortable.

------
baha_man
Das Keyboard.

<http://www.daskeyboard.com/>

~~~
icey
Do you actually use one of these regularly? I see a lot of people recommending
them, but very few people using them as their daily keyboard.

~~~
uruzseven
I use one every day and am typing this on one right now. I actually like it so
much, I bought 2 more. One for work and one for home plus and extra on in my
closet in case the company goes out of business.

The blank aspect is kinda cool but I really like the feel and sound of the
thing. I don't know if I type any faster with it and finding some characters
like % and ^ can be difficult at first.

I also know of several former co-workers that use them.

------
voldern
The good old Keytronic KT800 <http://www.le.ac.uk/cc/dsss/docs/kb_kt1.jpg>

Tough if you're looking for something more new the Logitech Ultra-Flat
keyboards is good to.

------
rewind
I have a Goldtouch and it's worth every penny. You have total control over the
splay and pronation, and it doesn't have a number pad on the right. This was
the main thing I was looking for in the first place. I wanted the hand on my
mouse to be as close to center as possible.

[http://www.keyovation.com/pc-64-2-goldtouch-adjustable-
keybo...](http://www.keyovation.com/pc-64-2-goldtouch-adjustable-keyboard-
black.aspx)

------
ComputerGuru
Has anyone used a DiNovo Edge? I hear it has great tactile feedback, but
haven't had the chance to try it out yet.

~~~
Morieris
I have one of those for my home computer, and I think it's great. The short
throws on the keys feel nice, and overall it is quite solid. I wouldn't want
one at work though, as it lacks a proper numpad. Also, chicks dig it; it's a
sexy keyboard.
[http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/products/details/US/EN,CRI...](http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/products/details/US/EN,CRID=2166,CONTENTID=10717)

~~~
silencio
I'm a chick and I dig the way it looks, but there is noooooo way in hell I'd
be paying that much for a keyboard :(

------
gtani
i'm not that picky about keyboards, as long as it's not the white/clear
plastic Apple PoS. i do like the matias mac models, besides the cheap wired
Logitech and Kensingtons:

<http://matias.ca/products/index.php>

------
hsmyers
Any OmniKey Ultra from Northgate Computer Systems. Try eBay. Company no longer
exists...

------
maxniederhofer
Surprised no one is mentioning these

<http://www.cherry.de/english/products/keyboards_g81-3000.htm>

Simple, timeless, cheap.

~~~
Zak
I like this variant:
[http://www.cherry.de/english/products/keyboards_g83-6188_lin...](http://www.cherry.de/english/products/keyboards_g83-6188_linux.htm)

------
rw
Kensington SlimType; thin like a laptop keyboard, clicky and fast (unlike new
imac keyboards):

<http://us.kensington.com/html/5463.html>

~~~
jdavid
i have one of these keyboards for my living room pc, it has the same spacing
as a laptop keyboard, however mine has some strange & tiny backspace, for
which i tend to hit the \ key instead. i highly recommend it, but maybe not
for hacking. even for gaming its a bit off.

------
andreyf
Surprised nobody mentioned this: <http://datahand.com/products/proii.htm>

Never seen one, but heard crazy stories...

------
axod
Macbook, or the new Apple wireless keyboard is really nice.

------
samueladam
I really miss a pointing stick keyboard.

~~~
wanorris
The best keyboard I've every used is my ThinkPad keyboard -- great feedback,
everything within easy reach including both pointing devices.

If I ever went back to using a desktop again, I would probably buy one of
these, which is a pretty awesome way to get a TrackPoint for your desktop:

[http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPo...](http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:item.detail?GroupID=38&Code=31P9490&current-
category-id=E6710B8C5A5F44239217E34D281CCDD9)

~~~
Zak
I recently saw one of those being used in a store at a POS box of some sort.
They had _removed_ the trackpoint cap!

------
jdavid
does anyone use one of these?

[http://www.amazon.com/C51-A04031-Laser-Virtual-
Keyboard/dp/B...](http://www.amazon.com/C51-A04031-Laser-Virtual-
Keyboard/dp/B000ALZMJS)

~~~
jdavid
i wish there was a mouse technology based on that. it would be sooooo cool to
have your laptop just sense your movement to the left and right of it, as if
you had two mice. but, what am i , thinking that would require someone to do
something totally unique.

------
dangoldin
Not a bloomberg keyboard - those are terrible.

------
rdouble
apple laptop keyboard, kinesis ergo, happy hacking.

------
dfranke
Sun Type 6.

------
pepeto
this is the shit, for less that $1,600 you get lcd's on your buttons :)
customizable with Shakespeare on the space bar! Now that is pimp.
<http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus/>

