
Two-thirds of American employees regret their college degrees - drocer88
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/two-thirds-of-american-employees-regret-their-college-degrees/
======
legitster
In WA, there is a program where you can finish the last two years of high
school at a community college and graduate with a two year degree for free. It
was probably the best decision of my life. I basically got to trial and error
all of my interests for free much earlier and cheaper than everyone else.

And it went _against_ the guidance of my school counselors. They thought
community college would hurt my chances at getting into _" Prestigious
Schools"_. They also knew tons of kids who screwed off the minute they were
given an ounce of freedom (you know, kids who would have wasted money at
college anyway).

Community college is the best. Everyone should do it. And it's actually
designed for you to learn, not just get a degree. Take a year off, explore
your interests, take an internship if you can. Then decide the degree you want
to go for (if you actually want to at this point), and find an affordable
place to do it.

Too many of my friends got suckered into "there's a school in Vermont that
offers the exact program I want, and they are offering me an arbitrary
discount on their huge out of state rates".

~~~
bradlys
> And it went against the guidance of my school counselors. They thought
> community college would hurt my chances at getting into "Prestigious
> Schools".

I mean, they're not wrong. You will statistically be less likely to get into
those schools. Once you're a transfer student, your acceptance rates go down
significantly for prestigious private colleges. (And some public universities
too)

If your goal is to graduate from a top school, you're less likely to be
accepted as a transfer student.

~~~
nostrademons
You have the option of going as a normal student. If you do, top-tier colleges
usually look at college and AP courses taken at other institutions as a bonus
towards admission.

I went to Amherst College (#1 liberal arts college in the U.S. when I
matriculated), having taken courses at Harvard Extension School, UMass Lowell,
and Boston University as a high-schooler. They didn't give me credit for any
of them, nor for the 8 AP tests I passed. However, I was told that they were a
big plus on my otherwise-lackluster application. The fact that I could take
and ace college courses at other institutions was a great way to nullify the
fact that I was failing my high-school courses.

My sister did courses at Middlesex Community College (again, through the same
MA dual-enrollment program that I used) and went to Rice University and my
wife did courses at Foothill Community College (through CA's dual-enrollment
program) and went to UC Berkeley, so not an isolated experience.

~~~
bradlys
I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm saying it's just less likely. The
admissions statistics for these universities show that. After all, they really
only admit transfer students to fill in for students who dropped out of their
school. They base class size solely on the freshmen class.

In your case, I don't think you were applying as a transfer student. You were
also not going to your local CC. Those universities are a higher tier than
your local CC.

In the case of "running start" the whole premise is that you have 2 years of
college completed when you graduate. Not that you spent 2 years doing college
courses to just restart from level 1. You can do that but I think it's a waste
of resources and will unnecessarily crowd local community colleges. And it did
where I went to community college. I had to deal with a bunch of 14-17 year
old high school age kids. >=25% of the student body was high schoolers with
some of my classes at 50%+. Gets kind of annoying when you have to constantly
deal with those kids still being kids.

~~~
nostrademons
I wasn't applying as a transfer student, and I'm saying that it absolutely
does make sense to restart from level 1 if you get into a high-tier
university, and that doing so can _help_ you get into such a high-tier
university.

Yes, it does unnecessarily crowd local community college. Such is the arms
race that is today's college admission's scene.

------
Ill_ban_myself
There is a worthwhile discussion to be had about the cost of college tuition
and actuarial tables of different degrees and their earning power and how that
relates to pay structure for graduates and for professors and how college
programs are run.

Trying to have that discussion on hacker news starting from a primary source
consisting of a CBS News poll is like trying to get to the moon on a North
Korean rocket with sadness and starvation as your rocket fuel.

~~~
legitster
If I remember correctly, the previous administration proposed a program where
schools and degrees were valued based on their potential earnings but the
collective pushback from universities killed the idea.

~~~
jdm2212
The idea got killed because it's really hard to measure value added as opposed
to just graduates' earnings (students who appear identical on paper self-
select into schools and majors and later on careers based on non-measurable
stuff). And if you basically just measure graduates' earnings, you're going to
punish schools that take a chance on less prepared students, majors that cater
to students with weaker backgrounds, etc.

University administrators and professors aren't dumb. They know that good
faith efforts to measure value added today will give way next month or next
year to laziness and crude numerical targets. The end result will maybe be
better numerical scores, but little substantive improvement in how well
students are educated or prepared for life.

------
chaostheory
From the article:

"Most satisfied: Those with science, technology, engineering and math majors,
who are typically more likely to enjoy higher salaries, reported more
satisfaction with their college degrees. About 42% of engineering grads and
35% of computer science grads said they had no regrets.

Most regrets: Humanities majors, who are least likely to earn higher pay post-
graduation, were most likely to regret their college education. About 75% of
humanities majors said they regretted their college education. About 73% of
graduates who studied social sciences, physical and life sciences, and art
also said the same. "

~~~
stargazing
Important to note the phrasing of this. 58% of engineering grads and 65% of CS
grads still said they regretted their degrees - which isn't far off the
numbers of those in the humanities.

~~~
tomohawk
This really surprises me. I would have expected maybe 30% based on so many
people not making it through the program. At my school they had to get 2/3rds
to drop by junior year or there would be too many in the program, and they
never missed that goal. I saw very few make it through who were not genuinely
interested in the subject.

~~~
hinkley
How many young devs have you met who you were sure were going to wash out?
Many of them got the degree to have a comfortable life, not because it felt
like a calling.

All of those people are going to regret struggling through the CS program only
to find out that the programming problems in school were _trivial_ and the
real stuff is messy and confusing as hell.

I tell anyone who asks that they should get some sort of programming job as an
undergrad. If you can't hack it, you can get some other degree in 5 years. If
you can, you'll learn so much more from your classes, because you'll have the
practical bits down pat and you can focus on the theoretical.

One of my friends got a job junior year. I would ask him how long the homework
took him and he would say something like 2 hours. Bullshit. It took me 10 and
there were people in the lab a lot longer than me. There is no fucking way
that's true. I stopped asking him because it just pissed me off. Senior year I
got a job working at the same place, and within a couple months I was down to
4-5 hours. Ok, maybe he wasn't bragging. Maybe practice really is that
important.

By the time I left, with maybe a couple thousand hours of programming under my
belt, I had one class with a shortage of machines (3D cards). I would sit in
my apartment writing code in a terminal window on one of those machines,
essentially blind, for two hours. When I'd get a clean compile I'd go over to
the lab to debug for 40-75 minutes. Because doing the homework was just doing
the homework, like a math class, instead of a huge production.

Then I'd go back to work and stare at a complex memory corruption bug for 5
hours...

------
fiftyfifty
It's crazy to spend so much time and money in school and not have a plan for
what kind of career you are going to get when you get out. Parents and
educators are failing these young people in not guiding them into realistic
jobs and careers. The process before anyone attends college should be to
decide on potential careers and then pursue the schooling and other
qualifications you need to succeed in that career. A study of the job market
and relative availability of different jobs should play into that process as
well.

Unless you come from a wealthy family, before you spend a dime on higher
education you should spend some serious time looking at websites like this
one:

[https://www.bls.gov/ooh/](https://www.bls.gov/ooh/)

~~~
killjoywashere
I'm a huge fan of the Occupational Outlook Handbook. That said, it's breakout
of some interesting categories is fairly weak. Many medical specialties are
simply not listed, while virtually every subset of engineering is listed,
except software engineering (perhaps due to a lack of PE involvement?)

------
paultopia
We've got to stop letting 18-22 year-olds make incredibly expensive
life/career decisions with zero information.

~~~
sdinsn
> with zero information

Zero information? Young people have so much information: government job
statistics, job growth predictions, free career advice, peer-led career
forums, etc.

They just ignore all of it.

~~~
Hermitian909
This is disingenuous, data you either don't know exists or lack the tools to
parse is useless.

Even if a young person _does_ know it exists and _can_ parse it, it is often
the case that every authority figure in a young person's life is giving bad
information. Often times your teachers, guidance counselor, school
administrators, and parents are pressuring you to go to some middling 4 year
institution. We spend 18 years training kids to treat the adults in their life
as authority figures, expecting them to make their own decision against the
desires of these authority figures is naive.

~~~
fuzz4lyfe
The problem is who we have as authority figures. Teachers and school
administrators are people who took easier coursework than say a biologist or a
computer scientist and then got a government job. That pathway isn't like most
of employment and frankly most of the teachers I had wouldn't be able to hack
it in a private company.

All throughout high school I was told that I would be unable to become a
software dev without college. I dropped out of high school, work as a software
dev and make more per year than any of the people who said I wouldn't be able
to do that. They simply aren't the kind of people to ask if you are planning a
career that isn't in unionized government work, most of them have never done
anything else.

~~~
observer12
The same thing happens with IT security. A common question that comes from
high school or college students is how to get started in the field. When the
question is answered by people in IT security its pretty common to see college
isn't required and be given paths to getting into IT security that don't
require a degree. When its answered by people outside the field, go to college
and get a degree is the answer.

The reality is a degree isn't required its only one path of many someone can
take. And often those with degrees eventually follow the same path those
without went. The difference is they are four years behind in career
progression and thousands in debt.

------
avgDev
Before being an SE, I had many shit jobs and getting the college degree
unlocked many doors for me.

I went to a state uni, it was relatively cheap, I don't think I would make
anything close to what I make now as I hate sales. However, I know smart
people with art degrees, which are useless to them.

Every competent person I have met when studying computer science is doing very
well, would they achieve the same success without a CS degree? Maybe, but that
degree definitely helps getting jobs at non-tech companies.

I have no "regrats"

~~~
observer12
In my experience tech companies tend to be the ones that are snobby about
degrees. I know Fortune 50s (non tech companies) that don't care about
degrees.

------
6gvONxR4sf7o
>Most satisfied: Those with science, technology, engineering and math majors,
who are typically more likely to enjoy higher salaries, reported more
satisfaction with their college degrees. About 42% of engineering grads and
35% of computer science grads said they had no regrets.

>Most regrets: Humanities majors, who are least likely to earn higher pay
post-graduation, were most likely to regret their college education. About 75%
of humanities majors said they regretted their college education. About 73% of
graduates who studied social sciences, physical and life sciences, and art
also said the same.

I love the idea of free college. That said, I feel weird about subsidizing
something people regret doing in the first place. If this doesn't provide $X
value to you, having the tax payer pay that much for it instead of you paying
for it seems weird. I hesitate to make a HN tech bubble comment, but it really
seems like only making certain degrees free could make sense. Like, I'm a lot
happier paying taxes to educate doctors than poets, even though there's value
in having both.

~~~
massysett
It makes even less sense to pay to educate doctors. Their earnings pay for the
education many times over.

~~~
jacobsenscott
I don't think that's true unless you become a specialist. If you become a GP,
or a pediatrician, or work in a rural area where docs are in short supply you
don't make huge money.

------
tomohawk
Does not surprise me at all. It was unfathomable to me the number of pretend
students I met at school who were racking up bills discovering themselves
while pursuing studies in subjects with little hope of remunerative
employment. They seemed to outnumber the actual students, at least the 1st
year or two.

The fact that schools take advantage of unsophisticated customers with such
shoddy products, and that this is heavily subsidized by taxpayer money - just
ridiculous.

------
payne92
Here’s the underlying survey report: [https://www.payscale.com/data/biggest-
college-regrets](https://www.payscale.com/data/biggest-college-regrets)

~~~
analog31
I looked through the article. I'd be skeptical about interpreting _what_
people actually regret.

Do they regret not choosing another major? Which major? Would they have been
successful / happy in that major?

Do they regret not going to a cheaper college?

Do they regret not getting a job after high school? What job? Would they have
been happy in that job?

------
leftyted
I regret my degree (though I'm doing fine).

It's in History, but that's not the issue. The issue is that I wasn't mature
enough or academically inclined enough when I was 18-22. I did very well in
High School due to fear of disappointing my parents but I didn't do any work
in college and now I regret it. I did learn how to program.

I have a coworker who worked in a kitchen for a year after high school which
spurred him to get a college degree. I think that's a good fit for lots of
people and possibly would have been a better fit for me.

~~~
jkmcf
Only took me 2 weeks of working in a kitchen to figure that out! Still chose
the wrong major for me (physics), but it opened enough doors to have a sw dev
career.

What do you regret about the history degree? Job applicability or that it
didn’t interest you enough to continue with it? The latter was my problem... I
do wish I could have had two BAs, one in a blended-subject liberal arts...

------
apo
Imagine how much more sane tuitions would be if these people had just done
something else with their lives.

Unintended consequences of federal loan guarantees: education becomes more
expensive, leaving young graduates who should be finding their financial
footing trying to understand what happened to them.

~~~
downrightmike
Schools have all the info and yet they still are more than happy to sign kids
into mountains of debt. Nothing would have lowered tuition because it doesn't
take all of the money brought in to school the kids, most of the money is
going into growing the school's endowment and to maintain their status as a
charity so they don't pay taxes. So 58% of kids MUST take some form of aide or
charity. And as society has plummeted, more kids are pushed into Uni and
therefore tuition MUST be raised to keep the charity status.
[https://www.conradbastable.com/essays/the-uncharity-of-
colle...](https://www.conradbastable.com/essays/the-uncharity-of-college-the-
big-business-nobody-understands)

------
not_a_moth
I regret the four years part at least. I believe undergrad really only needs
to be 2-3 years tops.

~~~
takk309
I have two Civil Engineering degrees (BS and MS) and have been working in the
field for some time now and I think the opposite, CE should be a minimum 5
year program. The people I see as fresh undergraduates do not know enough to
do the job but those with master's degrees do. I guess it is forcing those
that do the hiring to select for those who have more schooling.

~~~
tropo
Right now it is 1 year, plus another 3 years of filler. We could make it 5
with another year of filler, but I don't think that would help. Suppose we
mandate another year worth of classes: Ancient Mesopotamian Art,
Intersectionality in Sports, Flute Performance, Zoology, Sexual Development in
the Infant, Ballroom Dance, French Existentialism, Phlebotomy, Astronomy,
History of Jazz. Does this help? We already have 3 years of it.

Chains of prerequisites are long enough that we might need 2 years by the
calendar, but there is only 1 year worth of material. Going half-time for 2
years would provide the same benefit as the modern American 4-year degree.

~~~
observer12
This, I dropped out of college after doing the majority of the "core". I do
well and can easily afford to finish without loans, but finishing requires a
bunch of general education credits that I see no benefit from.

------
antidaily
"Two-thirds of employees report regrets about their _advanced_ degrees."

~~~
analog31
The survey report doesn't even use the word "advanced," so it looks like
whoever wrote the article just doesn't know what an advanced degree is.

------
perfunctory
Maybe they don't regret their degrees but their jobs. The current job market
totally disregards the passions and aspirations of our generation. Maybe we
should treat enrolment per degree as a sort of voting system and allocate
financial resources accordingly. After all students are drown from the
society, so their aspirations are society's aspirations. Unfortunately capital
allocation decisions are made by managers who are rather detached from real
communities.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
You want to let students' aspirations guide jobs, rather than what companies
need? That seems really unlikely to work out well for the society.

Society needs companies that can actually produce stuff that people need and
want, worse than they need companies that create jobs that fulfill everyone's
aspirations.

~~~
malandrew
This. So much this.

Passions and aspirations are for hobbies.

Jobs are about providing value to others in society in exchange for IOUs that
you can exchange with others.

~~~
perfunctory
To reply with a personal anecdote.

When I went to study computer science, Google did not exit yet. Facebook did
not exist. Apple was an obscure company. World Wide Web was a hobby. My
parents were genuinely worried I wouldn't be able to get a job. Fast forward.
Had I been more realistic and chosen a degree that better matched the job
market of the time I would probably be unemployed by now.

Draw your own conclusions from this.

~~~
malandrew
Sometimes the two coincide. Had you been born 20 years earlier but still had
the same passions, how might things have been different?

Another fun thought exercise, what subject can someone go study today that
would be a hobby right now that parents would worry about with respect to job
prospects, but that in 5, 10 and 20 years will have its own Google, Facebook,
Apple and World Wide Web?

~~~
perfunctory
> Another fun thought exercise, what subject can someone go study today

That's a nice one. As Alan Kay said - the best way to predict the future is to
invent it. I guess we should let kids study what they like and then let them
go explore and discover and make mistakes and invent that future. Instead of
trying to shoehorn them into the existing job market.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
Of the kids who take that approach, some huge fraction will _not_ invent the
future. ("The future _wasn 't_ artisanal baskets with rap lyrics enscribed?
Who knew?")

For the ones who succeed, your approach will work brilliantly. For the ones
who are off on a dead end that they imagine to be obviously right... some
other approach might be more useful.

------
phil248
This is truly shocking to me. I'd have thought that most people value the
experience of college so immensely that it was worth the cost. I'll be paying
student debt for the rest of my life, but in retrospect I'd have happily paid
double for the experiences and perspectives I gained.

~~~
cgoecknerwald
This seems like a unique perspective to me. Can you elaborate on those
experiences you found most valuable?

~~~
phil248
I don't know how to explain how the college experience is amazing without
writing several paragraphs. I honestly thought my sentiments were near-
universal. For several years I got to literally pick a topic out of thin air
and then have seasoned professionals teach me all about it three days a week.
I got to live independently and among bright people all in my age group and
craft whatever life I wanted within the relatively safe confines of a
university. Then there's all the tradition and legend and adventure that goes
with the average college experience. Meeting so many new people from so many
different places and backgrounds...

Hell, I'd pay triple.

~~~
hermitdev
This largely echos my experience.

Moved from a small rural town to Chicago. Was surrounded by professors and
industry professional instructors. Most of my non PhD instructors had decades
of industry experience from the likes of Motorola, Comes or Bell labs/Lucent.

Classes at my school were generally pretty small, except for a few weeder
classes in freshman/sophomore years.

I studied Electrical and Computer Engineering (got 2 B.S. degrees). All of the
instructors in the EE department were extremely approachable and really cared
about their students (at least about the students that cared for themselves
and sought engagement). I had one professor that helped me move from a half
tuition scholarship to a 3/4 tuition scholarship.

The school I went to also set me up well to succeed professionally. Not just
theory, but leadership roles, independent projects, interprofessional
projects, etc.

Not to mention the social aspects. I lived on campus my first 2 years, off
campus my last 2 with a roommate. I got my internship end of my sophomore year
as I replaced a graduating senior on my floor when I was an RA that year, and
he referred me (he knew I was already dabbling in the tech stack he used).
Spent 3 years working as an intern before I got my first salaried position in
finance on a referral of my best friend from school. Spent 9 years at that job
before moving on. Went from being a very junior dev in that role to owning
several critical systems for trading at a hedge fund. Ive now spent 15 years
in finance and have school to thank, though I never expected to be there.
Hell, I wanted to design processors.

But, do I regret going to college? Not one bit. Sometimes, I wish I'd finished
my masters, but I don't need it for more than resume fodder. My work
experience amd the companies I've worked for open far more doors. I get at
least 5-7 emails from recruiters per week.

~~~
dillonmckay
This is quite atypical, but I am glad you had this experience.

It seems you lucked out with some great human relationships, for both your
internship and getting your foot in the door for your first job.

------
mrcactu5
i got into a nice college, and they even gave us financial aid. the job market
was unforgiving.

------
Zaskoda
My MS has certainly proven to be much more of a waste of resources than I ever
expected it might be.

