
Evidence on how to find the right career - robertwiblin
https://80000hours.org/career-guide/personal-fit/
======
peterlk
This reminds me of one of my favorite talks of all time[1].

Applied to careers, I take the talk as implying that trying things is the
secret. After a certain level of experience in your career, you'll know
whether you like it. Branching off of that, it might even be the right thing
to do to find a new career.

One of the best pieces of advice I have ever received is "successful people do
stuff. It doesn't matter what that stuff is, just do stuff and you'll
eventually be successful". Some people will be luckier than others, and be
successful at their stuff at a higher ratio, but overall, the ratio is about
the same, and you just need to keep doing stuff.

Also, one of my favorite illustrations/cartoons of all time[2] speaks to this
point. Basically, if you pursue the same career for your entire life, you're
probably wasting your time. once you have your x,000 hours of work in, do
something new where you can cross-apply that knowledge into domains that need
it.

[1][https://youtu.be/l_F9jxsfGCw](https://youtu.be/l_F9jxsfGCw)

[2][http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2722](http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2722)

Edit: sloppy link formatting

~~~
yodsanklai
> Applied to careers, I take the talk as implying that trying things is the
> secret. After a certain level of experience in your career, you'll know
> whether you like it.

You'll know whether your like it, but it may be too late to change. And some
careers require a long initial investment. Let say I graduate in CS/Math at 23
and that I work 3-4 years in a company, is it too late to become an MD? or
start a PhD? some people manage to do it but it's difficult.

~~~
dagw
My wife's uncle had a successful if unassuming career as a civil engineer.
Then one day, shortly after his 50th birthday, he decided that he never really
wanted to be a civil engineer and that his real passion was social
anthropology. By 62 he had a PhD in social anthropology, 3 or 4 published
books in the field, was generally considered an authority in his niche and
split his time between writing and lecturing part time at the university. He
worked until he was 70 and enjoyed every minute of it far more than his
previous career. Even at 50 it's not unreasonable to assume that you have
anywhere from 25-50% of your working life ahead of you, don't let a decision
you made as a kid get in the way of getting the most out of those years.

~~~
yodsanklai
I like to hear such stories, it's inspiring. Sometimes we don't really know
what's possible until we see other people doing it.

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bcherny
I like the argument made in So Good They Can't Ignore You, which is in line
with this article. Specifically, the author argues that based on studies,
people most satisfied with their jobs are not those with a natural aptitudes
for their work.

Rather, job satisfaction is well predicted by (1) expertise in the given
field, (2) quality of coworkers, and (3) freedom to do what you think is
right. For me, I'd say this is pretty accurate.

Generally, there are a few popular models of job satisfaction:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Job_satisfaction](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Job_satisfaction).

~~~
beachstartup
i can say that the thing that upsets me the most at work is when i can't do
what i think is right -- for whatever reason.

this is especially true about the things that may have long-term impact,
because i _know_ it's going to screw us down the line.

~~~
cle
I don't know your specific situation, but I've seen others with the same
mindset who are actually wrong, e.g. trying to optimise for a hypothetical
scenario that is unlikely or whose costs outweigh the benefits...they just
don't realize it because they don't have enough context or domain expertise.

I'm not saying that's you, but it might be. If you have this trait, you better
be right a lot, or nobody will want to work with you.

~~~
beachstartup
i'm the owner. i'm acutely aware of the costs and the benefits, because i pay
for both.

~~~
robjan
If you are the owner then why can't you do what is right?

~~~
beachstartup
dang, you're right, i should have thought of that earlier.

~~~
d23
He might be genuinely trying to find out what your situation is. Your
defensiveness is kind of a red flag.

~~~
beachstartup
"don't be defensive" is a great retort because no matter what anyone says,
they just seem more defensive.

day to day, i deal with people like you a lot. armchair quarterbacks and real-
life concern trolls. that's why owning a business is hard.

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cup
I think we really need to have a conversation on what "right career" actually
means.

Case in point. I'm a scientist, working on drug delivery technology. I
absolutely love research as a career. What I hate though is the poor pay, non-
existant job security, irregular work life balance and cult of self-sacrifice.

In retrospect, could I go back 20 years and start again I would have pursued a
career with greater job security and pay, less stress and more flexible
working conditions. Such jobs include regional train driving, trades-crafts or
administration to name a few (in my region).

These days I value less my career and more my free time with which I can
pursue my hobbies.

Subnote: With the advances in automation I think we should also consider
whether spending x0,000 hours to become great at a career is really important
anymore. Is it ethical to tell someone to sacrifice huge swathes of their
time/life for a career that might not exist when they're ready?

2nd Subnote: I want to expand my comment again after finishing the article. I
think we need to bear in mind that theres a lot of unspoken assumptions in
this guide. For instance, the assumption that theres time to explore possible
careers or that one can even trial different careers. A lot of people I know
from more difficult backgrounds never had the luxury to try things. They had
to make money to support their family so they took what they could get.
Alternatively, they never had exposure to other fields so didn't know what was
out there anyway. "Finding the right career" is in retrospect an extremely
telling phrase about ones socioeconomic and political position.

~~~
robertwiblin
Hi Cup - yes you're right, what people are looking for in their career is
complicated and varies by people.

This is part four of our career guide; the first article is all about what
actually creates job satisfaction: [http://80000hours.org/career-guide/job-
satisfaction](http://80000hours.org/career-guide/job-satisfaction) . I think
we say everything you said on your comment, and a lot more.

While people are varied, there are a few factors identified in the
psychological literature that are highly predictive of overall job
satisfaction and fulfillment for most of us. :)

~~~
cup
Do you think It's fair to push idealism over realism on (presumably) young
people, where wasting time looking for a 'dream' job might distract from
living a happy life with an ordinary/respectable job?

I like the intention and amount of work you've invested in this but I can't
help but feel uneasy about something.

~~~
robertwiblin
Hi Cup - our career guide is explicitly focussed on "talented young
graduates." We would shift the focus a bit for different audiences (more on
financial security for example). Though that's already implicit in our
discussion of the point at which money stops increasing happiness.

But actually if you read on the career paths we recommend in the career guide
involve developing highly practical and marketable skills. We just think that
turning those valuable skills towards improving the world will provide people
with fulfillment in the long term.

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abraae
This post introduced me to a concept I had never seen before.

Not the content though. Instead I'm referring to some new web chicanery with
the janky popup that appears when you mouse your mouse off the page in
preparation for navigating back.

Normally these just invite you to join an email list or whatever.

But this one seems to be actually personalized based on referer - I saw "Sorry
to do this to you HN.". I had instinctively closed it as always before it
struck me this is the first time I've ever seen that.

I guess there's some kind of database somewhere of referers, with a groovy
customized "sorry you're leaving" phrase for each one?

~~~
cookiecaper
I couldn't get this to fire, even after disabling my ad blocker.

~~~
robertwiblin
Hey Cookiecaper - yeah there's something going on making our appeals not show
for some people. For better or worse I'm trying to fix that. :)

~~~
dorfsmay
A/B testing?

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rch
The only right career is owning a small farm with sufficient output to provide
for one's family. Everything else is supplemental.

~~~
f0rfun
I struggle with this. Often, I find myself asking why should the primary
purpose of my life be providing for the lives of others? I should spend my
life living for myself to the fullest and in so doing, hopefully it enables me
to provide for my family and if not, at least I have little regrets.

Of course, if I choose to have kids, then this course would alter. I would
have to shoulder the responsibility of being my kids' sole provider til they
are able to fend for themselves. If I'm married and have taken the vow, then I
would abide by my spouse til death do us part. I would also without a doubt,
see my aged old parents whom did not managed to save for retirement well into
their golden years.

All that above is only when I have made the conscious effort to start a
family. Otherwise, providing for one's family cannot be the motivator for
starting a firm and letting all else - things pertaining to my self-interests
and ambitions take a back seat don't seem logical to me at all.

I know reality is crushing. I also know I have the power to think and to
change things. I will not succumb.

~~~
robertwiblin
The evidence from postiive psychology is clear that pursuing a goal greater
than yourself (that is, trying to help others) is associated with higher
levels of happiness and fulfillment, so it's sensible to follow that path even
if you are purely selfish: [https://80000hours.org/career-guide/job-
satisfaction](https://80000hours.org/career-guide/job-satisfaction)

~~~
nononosisisi
I guess everybody is different. Having anybody depend on me makes me feel
depressed. The only thing that truly makes me happy is working on my own
projects. Anything that seriously distracts me from doing this is my enemy.
I'm ok with spending a small percentage of my time with family but more than
that and I will probably fall into deep a depression followed by a really
angry backlash from me. Which is why I will probably never have a family. I
don't think I can dedicate them the time they deserve.

~~~
randomsearch
You could try finding a partner that feels the same, someone that also values
their free time and persona space. You may find their support actually helps
you focus even more.

~~~
cableshaft
Found that person. We can both be working on our own things in the same room,
no problems. And spending time with her keeps me more on task and less
distracted by all the shiny things on the internet.

------
lordnacho
Well of course exploration would help, but it's often very, very hard to get
an opportunity to try something to any depth. Who's going to write a better
job application, someone who already knows what the job is about, or a
tourist?

The advice about keeping your options open is IMO basically advice to do a
STEM degree. It is plausible that someone who studied science could read a lot
and become a political consultant. It's a lot less plausible that someone who
studied politics is going to pick up a book on fluid dynamics and work on
formula one cars. Neither should logically be impossible (it's just books
after all) but what will most employers' intuition be? Both are small
industries where opportunities are limited.

What's needed is more transparency. Nothing throughout school or university
showed me anything relevant about work. For instance, what salary can you get
from various careers? I was left with some leaflets with rough estimates for
finance and consultancy. And I had an offer in Engineering. But apart from
that, no clue.

What would make sense would be if firms got some kind of incentive to let
young people come in and have a look. And young people would be sent to do
various things, not just the ones they (or their parents) think will be best.
I remember one 18 year old intern who somehow knew she wanted to work in
investment banking (what she was doing in quantitative finance is a good
question).

------
BenjaminTodd
Hi everyone, I'm the lead author of the post and happy to answer questions.

------
lighttower
This advice was similar to what I got from my therapist when I was 19 in pre-
med at college. I liked physics most, but everyone in my family was in
medicine. So my therapist said, go job shadow people who have jobs in each of
the fields that you are considering. So I shadowed a respirologist for a day I
shadowed and electrical engineering firm that did wiring for department stores
and big box stores and I shadowed a satellite engineering and manufacturing
company. The respirologist, so very highly paid, was absolutely the worst job
I could possibly imagine for myself. The patience that he saw that day, all
had elements from manufacturing sector jobs, where their lungs were basically
shot. He prescribed a whole bunch of steroids on schedules that the patients
didn't understand (most of them did not speak English). It was so depressing.
The electrical engineering firm that designed the big box stores, that was
super boring to. AutoCAD and sitting at your desk all day long. The one that I
like the most was the satellite engineering and Manufacturing Company. So I
went into aerospace engineering. Then eventually changed to electrical
engineering, but the passion for Aerospace remains. What I wish this article
addressed, I was how to refund your career when you're now in your mid-
thirties.

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shanusmagnus
I agree with this article 100%, and it makes me sad because that belief comes
way too late to be of much use. I'm too damn old and established in various
aspects of my life to try a lot of new things (things that are fundamentally
and profoundly new to me, I mean) without blowing everything up. And I'm not
willing to blow up my life.

The simulated annealing that's possible with youth is astounding. I wish I
hadn't been so stupid at the time.

~~~
tbihl
I'm committed to my job for about the next six years, having already been in
it about five years already. The people are great, the mission is pretty good,
and the culture has some strong aspects.

Having said that, I'm squirreling away most of my earnings so that I can make
a careful step to my next career without needing to rush. It should be another
one with pretty good earnings; tack those savings up with the ones from my
current job, and the next job, when it comes, can be almost anything, with
little regard for level of income.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm staying very conservative in my finances
so I can stretch further in other dimensions of life without risk of over
extending.

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dsfyu404ed
Mix things up all you want but finding a good fit early and doubling down on
making a career out of it will get you farther down that path.

Bouncing around between grad school and different fields (or specializations
within a field) is an expensive (mostly in terms of opportunity cost) luxury
many cannot afford and many that can afford cannot justify.

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blazespin
This is actually great advice for a startup, as well.

~~~
BenjaminTodd
Yeah, we learned from startup strategy when thinking about career strategy.
For more on that:
[http://www.thestartupofyou.com/](http://www.thestartupofyou.com/)

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sreeharianil
Thanks , Dude it was Helpful

