
Why Be Honest If Honesty Doesn’t Pay (1990) - midef
https://hbr.org/1990/09/why-be-honest-if-honesty-doesnt-pay
======
sametmax
When I was in my twenties, I realized it was easier to get laid by being an
asshole, so I did just that.

After a while, it hit me: this strategy made me deeply unhappy.

With time I observed a lot my mental process, mood and behavior, and I noticed
that things like being rude, cheating, being selfish, etc. while paying off on
the short run, were affecting my long time happiness.

Apparently I was not made for that.

Lying, is one of those things. I can lie. I'm actually a very good lier, and a
decent actor.

But I keep it in check, doing it mostly because humans tolerate badly total
honesty, or sometime because I'm weak. Otherwise I avoid it, not for moral
reason, be because somehow, I find it strongly unsatisfying. It's not even a
judgemental voice in my head stating that it's wrong. It just feels like
writting with the left hand with a boxing glove: I can do it with training but
it's just not the experience I wish for.

I met many people sharing the same experience, but I can't say everybody feels
like this.

However, it seems a damn good reason to be honest, even when it doesn't pay.

~~~
ponderatul
I am in my twenties. I feel the same, just not sure about the negative effects
on longterm happiness.

I'm sure there's a balance there to be attained. But knowing you are capable
of lying, being a jerk, cheating and what that gives you, is very powerful.

In general I think there's a lot to learn from bad people. Which is an idea
lot of people dismiss.

~~~
duedl0r
That's a pretty stupid way of living. But hey, don't mind me, I'm old.. There
is no balance to be attained in being a jerk/cheater or whatever. It's like
saying: I have the option of breathing or not breathing, so let's get a good
balance. No!

If you want to learn from bad people: Do it, but use it for good. For example
in identifying people who are bad, or want to take advantage of you/others.
But certainly not to get a balance.

And btw, I always hope, people with questionable opinions get screwed by
someone with the same questionable view. Let's hope you'll learn your lesson.

~~~
sametmax
Actually I tried the other way around: never being a jerk, never lie or cheat.
But I couldn't manage: people take advantage of you and you get frustrated.

Now, building strengh, characters, and participating to alternatives to the
status quo are better long term strategies.

But on the short term, always playing by the rules is a serious disadvantages
in some environments.

~~~
minkzilla
How are did people take advantage of you that could only be prevented by being
a jerk/liar/cheater ?

~~~
sametmax
Usually people in harsh environnements.

If you have to play monopoly, and somebody cheats, you have 4 choices:

\- loose. It's not a game you can win by skill

\- stop playing. It may very well be a terrible option for you.

\- call for authority. Unfortunatly this is one of the least effective
strategy IRL.

\- level the playing field. Not great, but the least of evils until you get
yourself into a better situation such as playing another game, have friends to
help you, etc.

------
rjf72
I'm curious if the value of dishonesty has increased as police forces and
their efficiencies have increased. In times past if somebody felt sufficiently
screwed, there was a chance for quite severe consequences. People were armed,
detective work was primitive, and local legal systems had a defacto defense of
'he deserved it.'

But today you can screw millions of people over and feel pretty safe about it.
People are generally not armed, police work is of a much higher quality and a
perceived quality even higher than that (CSI effect [1]), and criminal courts
don't tend to consider justifiability except in an extremely narrow set of
situations such as self defense.

It means that, in practice, the worst consequence you can ever expect to face
for a bad action is the legal consequence for such. And even if everybody
'knows' you did it, so long as you can pose any sort of a defense to offer
reasonable doubt you stand a pretty decent chance of getting off. And highly
paid lawyers, alongside a convoluted and ever more esoteric legal system, tend
to be pretty good at doing just that.

I'm not making a value judgement on systems of past or present. I simply find
unintended consequences remarkably interesting. A reasonable argument that
better police forces and improved legal systems could somehow drive dishonest
and unlawful behavior would rank pretty high up there on something nobody
would ever intend.

[1] -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSI_effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSI_effect)

------
FartyMcFarter
If you're not honest, sooner or later people who are close to you will know
that. Why should they treat you better than you treat other people?

Be honest so you can live with yourself. So that you have nothing to feel
guilty about. So that you can reasonably expect and demand other people to
treat you as well as you treat others.

------
moron4hire
Dishonesty only pays off in the short term. It basically requires you to
constantly be on the move and into new social circles to avoid your
reputation. Wherever you are, whether you're honest ot dishonest, your
reputation eventually catches up with you. Which one do you want catching up
with you?

Where I see people saying, "honesty doesn't pay off," what they are usually
talking about is being a doormat. You can be an honest, nice person without
letting people exploit you. In fact, it is more honest, to tell people "no, I
can't do that" than to constantly bend over backwards to get people's
approval.

~~~
billybatson
I think a distinction to be made here is the difference between being "nice"
and being "kind". The former is someone who would bend over backwards and not
enforce or consider their own boundaries. The latter is someone who has the
same intention but is mindful of what their own personal values are and having
self-respect.

It's tough because they both have the same intention, but the execution of it
is different. I feel somewhat shameful of not learning the distinction until
very recently, but am still grateful for learning it at all.

------
orsenthil
Honesty in psychology is equated with sanity, and correlates linearly with
stability, and longevity of the person.

------
lcall
The short version: The real reason, perhaps unpopular to state it, is that we
will be happier, now and in the next life, with a clear conscience.

The longer version: there is a God, this life is not our beginning nor our
end, we will be rewarded or punished according to our choices, someday
everything about us will be known, but God can help us change now, to have
peace, and happiness that lasts, families that are happy, tools to address the
problems of life, and a reason for confidence to go on when things are really
hard, etc, etc. That sounds like a sermon but I have thought about it for a
very long time and considered my reasons for belief, which I have tried to
explain:

[http://lukecall.net](http://lukecall.net) (a lightweight site, just text; it
attempts to be a skimmable outline of info where you click what you find
interesting, for more info.)

EDIT: And no matter one's worldview: after many years of observing, reading
and learning from experiences, it seems so very clear that we all get farther
if we work together and can help & trust each other.

~~~
paulryanrogers
> there is a God, this life is not our beginning nor our end,

Downvoted because this is an extraordinary claim without falsifiable evidence.
And my experience following that path was not a harmonious one. Perhaps it is
better for us to cooperate more, but I'm not convinced that wildly varied
interpretations of imaginary authorities are the best way.

~~~
vokep
Its an extraordinary claim, but its religion, it kinda starts with
extraordinary unfalsifiable claims from the start.

Truth is, it doesn't matter. Ideas of an after-life and such may or may not be
true, but the instructions for how to live here on Earth are the same
regardless of the belief: Try your best to be a good person and when the time
comes, leave this world having made it better, not worse.

Any religious story comes down to teaching that lesson ultimately, perhaps
ideas of reincarnation or after-life are to provide a story to believe as
extra motivation when people come to believe things like "Why be honest if
honesty doesn't pay". If you've come to believe that, if you also believe
dishonesty will result in very real very bad things for you eventually, you
may act honestly anyways.

Just because religion isn't falsifiable in a strict scientific sense doesn't
mean there is no value to discussing it. There is still a logic to it that can
be understood and interesting consequential conclusions drawn from.

~~~
lcall
Thanks for your comment, which I respect and appreciate.

At the same time, and in addition, I believe that there are reasons for which
it matters, because by knowing the truth there are much greater benefits
available. Through the teachings I try to follow, one can have greater peace
and joy in this life, a perspective and accompanying tools to better solve the
inevitable problems of this life, and also that through those teachings and
the accompanying ordinances, one can have blessings after this life which can
come in no other way, such as family ties that persist beyond the grave, and
Eternal life with God. There are different options for those who want only to
be a good person: good, but not as good. There is more in the earlier link to
my web site ( [http://lukecall.net](http://lukecall.net) ).

This is in no way a declaration of superiority. Some of the lessons I have
learned were unfortunately learned the hard way, rather than the easy
(obedient, humble) way sometimes, but I am, by all those good & bad
experiences, fully convinced that the specific teachings are true. (I'll add
another comment in this immediate thread about that part -- relative to
falsifiability.)

------
lbj
This is such a depressing read on so many levels, but chiefly for me because I
have a brain defect which compels me to be brutally honest at all times, think
of it a Tourettes light. And when at times, it's seemed like bending the truth
would equate to a 2500 km shortcut, I've comforted myself that pure honesty
always wins in the end. Sad to see it doesnt.

~~~
placebo
My take on it is that it just boils down to what your highest insights are
about what is important in life. If you believe that the maximum we can hope
for is just to be sophisticated animals, acting in a sophisticated jungle,
aiming for more sophisticated forms of animal goals (gain the most power,
impregnate the most females etc.) then through that particular filter, indeed
honesty doesn't necessarily pay off and dishonesty can be just another good
tool in the toolbox to achieve king of the pack status.

There are however those who aren't content with just being sophisticated
animals. They want to to dive into the depths that no animal can reach, and
that requires self-honesty, and uncompromising honesty at that. And there is
no way you can truly be honest with yourself while being dishonest with
others, for reasons which become evident once you walk this path. This path
(if traveled to its full extent) pays way more dividends than any benefit
gained from prizes given by the sophisticated jungle. So, whether honesty pays
or not, really depends on what sort of existence you seek.

~~~
danbolt
“Above all, don't lie to yourself. The man who lies to himself and listens to
his own lie comes to a point that he cannot distinguish the truth within him,
or around him, and so loses all respect for himself and for others. And having
no respect he ceases to love.” — Fyodor Dostoevsky

------
Cursuviam
It pays to be seen as honest, not actually honest.

~~~
dfilppi
Bingo. This is the final optimization.

~~~
chongli
It's much easier to be actually honest. When you lie you have to keep track of
your lies, otherwise you might slip up and get caught. It can become a huge
mental burden if you're lying all the time and juggling many different stories
with different people.

When you're honest, on the other hand, it's easy most of the time because you
just tell people what you know to be true.

~~~
jjoonathan
> you have to keep track of your lies, otherwise you might slip up and get
> caught

I wish that were the case, but it isn't. There are many other strategies for
avoiding the negative consequences of lying that scale better. Society is
really, really bad at holding liars accountable. Just look at President Trump
-- or a couple of rungs up your corporate hierarchy.

------
galfarragem
Why? Peace of mind and stronger relationships.

~~~
coldtea
It could just as easily lead to trouble and weaker relationships...

------
Scarbutt
One issue is that dishonest people will use the honesty of some against them

~~~
lcall
That happens. I believe in God and that we will be rewarded or punished per
our actions. That long-considered belief gives me confidence and peace to go
forward even when it is really hard (like the example you give). I have tried
to explain and elaborate, here:

[http://lukecall.net/e-9223372036854618458.html](http://lukecall.net/e-9223372036854618458.html)

EDIT: Having said that, I also believe trust is earned and important questions
deserve corroboration and ongoing verification whenever that makes sense.

------
terrycody
no, it surely pays you, it pays you comfortable, and feel good and divine.

------
smallgovt
I've found that people fall along a spectrum of conscience that determines how
bad you feel when you lie (independent of the consequences).

Where you fall on this spectrum is determined by a combination of genetics,
family values, and societal values.

There are people who don't feel bad about lying in any situation e.g.
sociopaths and pscyopaths. There are people who only feel bad lying in certain
situations (the situations that society doesn't give a pass to). Then, there
are people who feel bad lying in all situations (typically, bc of the values
they inherited from their parents and upbringing).

I say all this because I think the optimal behavior when it comes to lying
frequency is entirely dependent on where you fall on this spectrum. If you are
a psycopath, you can be happy with a code of conduct that allows frequent
lying and covering up your lies. If you feel terrible about lying in all
situations, then you shouldn't lie at all.

Unless you do really hard work on changing your value structure, you're sort
of tied to a solution, and if you want to be happy, it behooves you to follow
it.

