
A hunt for the government's oldest computer - mrweasel
https://www.muckrock.com/news/archives/2016/feb/24/hunt-governments-oldest-computer/
======
huntsman
At one stage I suspected I was in charge of the oldest in use computer still
running in the world.

In 2001, the Australian Navy still used the Mk152 computer.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNIVAC_418](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNIVAC_418)
on the last remaining Charles F Adams class destroyer, HMAS BRISBANE.

It was a general purpose computer entirely constructed from individual
transistors with magnetic core memory. We had two of these onboard and if both
were down we couldn't fire the missile system. I had 3 sailors dedicates
solely to keeping these ancient machines running.

We got to diagnose some pretty cool bugs, like what happens when the card
corresponding the the lowest significant bit of the least use register has an
intermittent fault due to a bad mechanical connection.

~~~
nickpsecurity
That's pretty neat. My favorite of the older ones was the NSA machine that
used mercury for memory. Report said overflow errors were more serious than on
most systsms. ;)

------
altitudinous
I find the wording in this blog entry interesting - in particular "most in
need of an upgrade".

In my opinion, hardware that can be repaired and software that has been
running in production for years is not in need of an upgrade. The need to
refresh software or hardware exists purely to keep vendors in business and
even just to keep some I.T. departments busy and their C.V.'s up to date.

Provided a system is working reliably and is not dependent on changing
external requirements there is no need to upgrade. The risk to a business or
entity from the constant upgrade cycle is far greater than keeping something
existing and tested running.

~~~
soohyung
That's true except when said system needs to be repaired and there is no one
left who knows how to work with any systems that old. In that case it can be
painful finding someone knowledgeable enough to work with a system that old.

~~~
viraptor
My rule of the thumb would be - if you can't buy a drop-in replacement and get
it delivered in a week, it's outdated.

It doesn't even have to fail in a software/hardware specific way. If your
floor collapses or is flooded, and you're using old mainframe with code
written in Natural or similar, what's your DR story? Which actually makes me
curious - does anyone know what the DR plans look like for companies using
70's mainframes? Let's say a critical S/370 in company basement? (and yes, I'm
aware that new z series should virtualise that just fine, but in practice...
if you lose a mainframe, what do you even do?)

~~~
eru
I guess for anything IBM related, you can still throw many at IBM. With other
companies, you might be out of luck.

------
stevewilhelm
NORAD?
[http://www.gao.gov/assets/140/133240.pdf](http://www.gao.gov/assets/140/133240.pdf)

Voyager 1?
[http://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/didyouknow.html](http://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/didyouknow.html)
[http://history.nasa.gov/computers/Ch6-2.html](http://history.nasa.gov/computers/Ch6-2.html)

~~~
pklausler
Thanks for the link to the NORAD report.

I toured NORAD inside Cheyenne Mountain back in 1990 or '91, back when you had
to submit background information to apply for the tour, and I saw that
computing gear. It was amazing to see buildings on giants springs and caverns
with Diesel locomotives in them for back-up power.

------
mrbill
For sure there's still software written for the IBM 360/370 mainframe series
in production, just running either natively or in emulation on a newer zSeries
'frame. "Mainframe" doesn't necessarily mean "old".

I used to run a couple hobbyist/enthusiast sites and mailing lists for people
who collected and restored old DEC equipment (and I still run an all-systems-
welcome "rescue" list). Shortly after 9/11, I got a phone call from someone
working in the Pentagon who was looking for parts to repair a VAX that had
been damaged...

~~~
YeGoblynQueenne
>> "Mainframe" doesn't necessarily mean "old".

Yep, today they tend to look like something out of Battlestar Galactica:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_System_z](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_System_z)

I've started working with Z/OS on Zseries machines just a few months ago.
Obviously, I'm still learning. There is a _lot_ to learn- it's nothing like
linux :0

~~~
mrbill
That's one of the reasons I like fiddling around with the Hercules emulator -
exposure to a system that's completely and totally _alien_ compared to what I
have used for years and do for a living.

------
w8rbt
I bet the Federal Reserve still uses old mainframes.

Edit: Not sure why I am being down-voted. A lot of banks still use mainframes:

[http://mainframes.wikidot.com/](http://mainframes.wikidot.com/)

[http://www.networkworld.com/article/2916081/network-
manageme...](http://www.networkworld.com/article/2916081/network-
management/big-iron-and-banking-why-all-major-banks-rely-on-mainframes-and-
are-growing-their-use-of-mainframes.html)

~~~
JoBrad
You're right, mainframes are huge in finance, and I wouldn't be surprised to
find that the Fed uses them.

I found the second link you posted to be quite baffling; I have worked for
several companies where I had to integrate newer and older systems, and I
would never list "integration" as a reason to use a mainframe. Yes, it can be
done, but in my experience the assumption is that the mainframe must be worked
around, with all of its fixed-width EBCDIC glory.

------
spitfire
US nuclear missiles still use 8-inch floppy disks. Presumably on some 8-bit
micro from the time.

[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/01/floppy-disk-
nuclear...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/01/floppy-disk-nuclear-
missile-minuteman_n_5243367.html)

And of course we're still using operating systems from the 70's - Unix (in
Linux form) and VMS (in Windows form).

EDIT: Typo, Corrected 80's to 70's.

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
Windows is based on VMS? Huh? If anything, it's based on DOS and OS/2 (NT).

~~~
mahmud
What you consider today "Windows" is actually Windows NT. Dave Cuttler was a
lead architect of both NT and VMS.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Cutler](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Cutler)

Cuttler and a core of VMS team exited en masse to work on NT. In fact, he
coined the term "WNT" as a play on "VMS", each letter is a successor to the
corresponding one. (c.f. IBM <==> HAL)

[http://windowsitpro.com/windows-client/windows-nt-and-vms-
re...](http://windowsitpro.com/windows-client/windows-nt-and-vms-rest-story)

------
woodruffw
They may just be lore at this point, but I've heard stories from friends in
the government about older IRS records being kept on punchcards and read into
S/360 family machines. The VA is also apparently _heavily_ dependent on a
legacy MUMPS[1] codebase, although that could run on more modern machines in
principle.

[1]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUMPS](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUMPS)

~~~
xmstr
I did contact work with the IRS from '06-'09, on the IMF and BMF (master file
system) and I assure you there are no punch cards. Old school main frame
assembly yes, but no punch cards.

~~~
woodruffw
Well, that's a bit of a relief.

~~~
xmstr
The last I heard CADE2, the modernized (J2EE) system, had replaced the
majority of the IMF functionality (IMF is the core of tax return processing).
I'm not completely sure though as I haven't talked to those guys in over 4
years now.

------
nadinno78
Based on an old slashdot article there are still some PDP-11's still in use.
[http://developers.slashdot.org/story/13/06/19/1227244/pdp-11...](http://developers.slashdot.org/story/13/06/19/1227244/pdp-11-still-
working-in-nuclear-plants---for-37-more-years)

~~~
castratikron
The PDP-11 was the first thing that came to mind. I'm sure there a still a few
of those out there.

------
mrbill
Wonder if the FAA has ever gotten their upgrades fully done.. From 23 years
ago:

[http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/stories/1993-04-25/flying-in-
pla...](http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/stories/1993-04-25/flying-in-place-the-
faas-air-control-fiasco)

~~~
mrbill
Hrm, as of last year, doesn't look like it:

[http://dailycaller.com/2015/07/28/faas-air-traffic-
control-u...](http://dailycaller.com/2015/07/28/faas-air-traffic-control-
upgrade-still-flawed-despite-decade-of-ig-warnings/)

------
ytjohn
This isn't government, but there are some commercial outfits still using punch
cards (or did in 2012).

[http://www.pcworld.com/article/249951/if_it_aint_broke_dont_...](http://www.pcworld.com/article/249951/if_it_aint_broke_dont_fix_it_ancient_computers_in_use_today.html)

This article does mention this though: A recent federal review found that the
U.S. Secret Service uses a mainframe computer system from the 1980s.

------
kens
Here's an article discussing some old government computers as well as the 1948
era IBM 402 mechanical punch card accounting machine in use by a Texas
company:
[http://www.pcworld.com/article/249951/if_it_aint_broke_dont_...](http://www.pcworld.com/article/249951/if_it_aint_broke_dont_fix_it_ancient_computers_in_use_today.html)

------
subway12
You should send an email out to New York City Subway. I have heard their
technology stack is pretty outdated.

~~~
bernardom
Certainly if he's looking at local governments, MTA will be near the top of
the list.

This article was pretty popular here a few months ago:
[http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/11/why-
do...](http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/11/why-dont-we-know-
where-all-the-trains-are/415152/)

------
nickpsecurity
Minuteman uses VAXen:

[http://www.pcworld.com/article/249951/if_it_aint_broke_dont_...](http://www.pcworld.com/article/249951/if_it_aint_broke_dont_fix_it_ancient_computers_in_use_today.html)

------
Twirrim
State of Hawaii uses a 40 year old VAX for its payroll.
[http://www.hawaiibusiness.com/the-state-of-hawaiis-plan-
to-m...](http://www.hawaiibusiness.com/the-state-of-hawaiis-plan-to-modernize-
its-medieval-tech-systems/)

Last I heard, the budget and plan to replace it got thrown out as a cost
saving exercise, but I haven't been involved in the Hawaii tech scene for
nearly 3 years now.

------
toomanybeersies
Is this including local government? Because I remember reading that the
Detroit public school system uses punchcards still.

~~~
truncate
Just curious, to do what kind of jobs?

~~~
toomanybeersies
I can't remember now, but this is the reddit thread about it:

[https://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/25mp2r/punch_card...](https://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/25mp2r/punch_cards_not_alligned/)

------
kevin_thibedeau
Considering that Unisys only recently stopped selling their traditional
processors, I wouldn't be surprised if the original machines are still humming
away somewhere that couldn't budget an upgrade to the newer stuff.

------
JoeAltmaier
That Gateway they still 'own' \- maybe it's long lost, just still on the
records? Pictures, or it didn't happen.

Still amazing they never upgraded that poor sod.

~~~
Spooky23
You'd be surprised. Lots of money number crunching and facility software does
stuff like this. I've seen 486 boxes running door entry systems within the
last 5 years.

I'm also aware of a network of NT4 Alpha boxes running in production.

~~~
nickpsecurity
So I wasnt the only one that deployed those, eh? Haha. Used them for
obfuscation against Intel attacks. Nobody was the wiser. :)

------
tke248
I saw a VAX still in the rack a few years ago at an army base might be a good
place to look..

------
medains
It would be interesting to perform a similar exercise for UK government
agencies.

