
An Alternate Universe (Microsoft Surface) - tnorthcutt
http://www.marco.org/2012/10/26/an-alternate-universe
======
aik
Odd, I played with the Surface yesterday and the device I used was much
different than the one described here. I have an iPad (and love it in many
ways), however found the Surface fairly refreshing in several ways. For one:

I find that I can't really hold the iPad with one hand, partially because the
shape and weight distribution, partially because it feels so incredibly
fragile. I found the Surface to be shaped comfortably, even for one hand, and
thought it felt much more durable than the iPad (this article states it
doesn't feel light like the iPhone 5, however even though it's comparable in
weight to the iPad 3, my first thought was that it feels kind of like the
lightness and increased sense of durability of the iPhone 5).

>> I couldn’t type on the Touch Cover significantly faster than with the on-
screen keyboard.

Seriously? I type on the iPad a lot and resort to "pecking" most of the time,
and I have fairly average sized hands. I instantly was able to use the touch
cover like a normal keyboard. I made a few mistakes, but could easily see
myself typing nearly as fast as a normal keyboard with a little practice. I
have no such feeling with the iPad.

>> Apple’s products say, “You can’t do that because we think it would suck.”
Microsoft’s products say, “We’ll let you try to do anything on anything if you
really want to, even if it sucks.”

Wow, what a sad sounding world for people who like Apple products.

I'm not going to buy a Surface yet, but I'm seriously tempted.

~~~
olalonde
Haven't tried the Surface yet but something I haven't seen anyone mention is
that when you are typing on the Touch Cover, your hands are not hiding the
screen. That seems like a big plus to me.

Kickstarter idea: pitch a "Touch Cover" product for the iPad (could be done
using the USB port I believe). PS: lawyer up!

~~~
MaysonL
No need for Kickstarter: Google is your friend! Try "ipad keyboard case" or
"ipad keyboard cover".

~~~
balooner
but it's so thick(?)

------
Todd
It's a shame to see Marco panning the Surface so thoroughly. It's apples and
oranges. On the one hand, comparing brand new hardware (one day old) with 4th
generation hardware and on the other hand comparing brand new software (again,
one day old) with version 6 software.

Despite the criticisms of some of the execution here and there (e.g., the
pointless animations), it's clear if you've done any reading that a tremendous
amount of research and UX work went into this--but it's a v1 product and many
of the apps are written by groups other than MS.

I got a chance to use the Surface today and the thing that I came away with
was that this could be a person's only computer. As an example, you can browse
the file system, run desktop apps, and copy files to external storage. I can't
say that about an iPad. Everyone I know who owns an iPad (myself included)
also has a second computer somewhere--often in the same bag.

The other thing I came away with was that Microsoft is open and Apple is
closed. Why can't I plug a microSD card into any Apple product? Why can't I
plug in a USB device? You can plug your camera into the Surface (it's a host)
and download pictures to your local machine. MS has several capacities and
price points, just like Apple, but they're not afraid to let you use external
storage.

I believe in a future with open computing and, firmware lock downs
notwithstanding, MS is far more open than Apple.

~~~
babesh
It is not apples and oranges. People making a utility-based purchasing
decision can only compare the 1st generation Surface to the 4th generation
iPad.

The amount of R&D has no relevance to a consumer. The relevant thing is how
much value the device provides.

I agree that the expectation and advantage is to have your tablet serve as
your one and only computer. But this will never be actually true since most
people will actually have to carry around a phone (or phablet). The
portability and availability of a phone will beat out that of a tablet. Try
jogging with a tablet. What a tablet currently buys you is a larger screen and
a keyboard that you can type on for awhile.

A truer statement may be that this tablet's aim is to take on additional
functionality found in desktops and laptops and not found in other tablets. In
Microsoft's mind, that functionality is Office and access the file system.

You can plug in microSD and USD into an iPad. You need the accessories. Agree
that they don't let you use external storage.

If you want open computing, you shouldn't be picking Microsoft, nor Apple, nor
Google. Are you saying that you want to depend on an entity whose sole purpose
is to make money to supply you with open source code in the long run? How
about Oracle with Java? Or Compuserve with gif? Corporations don't even trust
other corporations with key technologies without making them open source or
FRAND. If you truly want open source, you should be branching Android and
replacing or removing Google services with open source alternatives.

~~~
lostlogin
Well, you disagree with Microsoft. As an exec said here (sorry to link to BGR)
[http://bgr.com/2012/10/25/microsoft-executive-mundie-
intervi...](http://bgr.com/2012/10/25/microsoft-executive-mundie-interview-
cyber-crime-stalled-smartphones/) MS lead the way with tablets and touch based
systems. If they were first, the surface isn't version 1.

~~~
babesh
That's quibbling. Irrespective of how you label the devices, a consumer making
a decision compares the two devices at hand.

------
cromwellian
Wait, so Apple invented the idea of a store with flat tables and sales staff
with blue shirts? First of all, practically every high end women's shoe or bag
store had that "Art Gallery" presentation style: hardwood floors, uncluttered
and spacious, simply flat tables or shelves with few products. Although the
sales people are usually dressed very sharp.

But Apple did not invent this style of presenting consumer electronics.
Sometimes I feel like Marco, MG, and Gruber were born 5 years ago. Am I the
only one who bought nice, industrial designed stuff from stores like Bang and
Olufsen? The Beocom 2 came out in 2002 and some of the Bang and Olufsen stores
had flat tables like that. And if you visited some of the boutique stores in
Italy or Japan even 10 years ago you would find some with this layout.

And didn't BestBuy invent the blue-shirt guy? I'm kind of bored of the
continued notion that Apple was the first consumer electronics company to
obsess over industrial design, build quality, or retail presentation.

~~~
corporalagumbo
There's a difference between tastefully selecting reference points from a wide
range of inspiration sources, and crudely imitating a direct comptetitor who
has heretofore been wiping the floor with you. The former is what Apple did
when creating the Apple Store, and what every other successful designer does
when creating something original. The latter is what wannabes do when they
begin to realise how uncool they are.

Successfully repurposing ideas into fresh contexts is good work. This is not
what Microsoft has done. Not by a long shot.

As to the Bang and Olufson argument, well, B&O sell speakers and is a nice
company, but Apple sells the future of humanity and is the largest company in
the world. It's a question of vision and impact, not who came up with hardwood
floors first.

Come to think of it, the whole who-thought-of-it-first is a real red herring
when thinking about why Apple/Apple Stores are significant.

~~~
hazov
So what?

Apparently from the various posts relating to discussions about Apple some
people take the idea of others emulating Apple as a criminal offense, a type
of offense in which for them is valid to point the fingers in the face of such
companies and repeated yelling: "loser loser."

About your two last paragraphs I dislike this wording but it shows every mark
of the fanboy speak, when given the facts that someone made some elements that
Apple uses today just say how Apple is significant compared to them, it's the
reverse of the above pattern. This is increasingly making me sick.

~~~
randomchars
If the only thing MS can do is play catch up with Apple and even copy their
store designs than they're truly losers.

Writing this from a Windows PC.

------
Magenta
Marco Arment enters a Microsoft store beady-eyed, looking for things to
nitpick, sneering at everything, seeing the negative side of everything.
Whodathunkit.

The article by this fully-grown adult is summed up as he bitches about how "he
isn't told how to exit other stores." What a clown.

~~~
thethe
Beady-eyed?

------
ericfrenkiel
this is such a biased article with strawman arguments ("can you replace the
sound card on the surface?") and silly comparisons(the author actually writes
he could buy 2 ipad minis for 1 surface).

the criticisms about the store experience and salesmen notwithstanding, this
is apple fanboism at its best.

It's far better to keep an open mind and experience new ways of interaction
than to deride/scoff at alternative UI and UX.

I switch between Android, Windows, and Mac OSX; it's far more interesting to
enjoy more platforms than forgo trying new experiences.

~~~
ghshephard
The sound card comment was because the salesman was suggesting one advantage
being a "PC Guy" was that he could upgrade his sound card. My response, btw,
would have been identical to Marco's here.

~~~
Jare
Arguing quick examples and metaphors has never been useful to anyone except
the arguer's ego. The salesdude actually tried to address Marco's underlying
question (in what ways can you expand this thing?), even though it was clear
Marco was there just for trolling. Surface love or hate nonwithstanding, this
is an embarrassing post from start to finish.

~~~
27182818284
It was important for the overall motif he repeated throughout the piece that
the salespeople seemed to be forcing the issue too much and weren't personally
invested. (How could they be? The store has been open for less than a month.)

~~~
lostlogin
On the subject of trolling, isn't the very store he went into some kind of
meta-troll. Built to be encountered before the Apple store is reached, copying
layout and staffing concepts, trying to divert people from buying iPads, coyly
calling the competition (iPad) a tablet, rather than name it. I think that
there is a reasonable augment to be made that Microsoft is trolling Apple. The
smart cover keyboard though, that's a definite win however I look at it.

~~~
deong
> coyly calling the competition (iPad) a tablet, rather than name it

Kind of like putting a picture of a Nexus 7 on the screen and calling it "a
competitor's tablet"? This isn't trolling, it's the way advertising has worked
throughout the history of people trying to get other people to buy stuff.

------
wvenable
> People who dislike Apple’s approach or whose requirements are incompatible
> with it will always exist in great numbers, and the Surface is for them.

I disagree. Historically, Microsoft software products have been more
customizable and more flexible than what comes from Apple. PC hardware as
well. But what we're seeing now, with Windows 8, is a departure from that.
Microsoft isn't just copying Apple's store -- they're copying the fundamental
mind-set behind Apple's software. Instead of a general purpose computing
machine, they're both trying to sell closed consumer electronics products. In
my opinion, Microsoft took their biggest advantage and tossed it. People who
dislike Apple's approach or whose requirements are incompatible aren't going
to find much of an alternative. Microsoft seems to think they can compete with
Apple on Apple's terms.

~~~
erickhill
And thus Android/Chrome may become the new "frankenstein customizable" option,
which MS has historically been.

~~~
Camillo
Maybe Android, but I can't see how Chrome could be that. It's a browser that
runs web applications. Every other OS has a browser and runs web applications.

------
paperwork
Quite a nice writeup.

It saddens me to see Microsoft disappointing, time after time. There must be
great material for anthropologists to figure out how such an incredibly smart
and talented group of people, with almost unlimited amount of money, can
continue to be second-rate. In fact, comparing the cultures around Linux, MS
and Apple is bound to reveal some greater truths about human/societal behavior
which could be applied to improving the lot of countries and cultures which
have stagnated.

~~~
sam1799
How is the Surface disappointing? Explain please. Surface has by far the
better hardware, and Windows 8 has a FAR better UI and UX than iOS. How is the
Surface worse than the iPad? It's way ahead.

~~~
MBCook
Most people seem to love the surface _hardware_ , it's Windows RT I've seen
most complaints about. Most people also seem to love the touch cover, and had
a better experience than Marco.

I read this entire piece as a critique of the MS store. The Surface just
happened to be what he tried to see/mess with; an activity that was constantly
interrupted by the sales staff.

I went into my local MS store a few weeks ago (pre-surface). While I didn't
encounter pushy salesmen, the rest of the experience was similar. The layout
and design was a clear copy of Apple. The uniforms and the way they carried
their ID on a lanyard was a clear copy. There was an "XBox Experience" section
in the back no one was using. The Windows phones were covered in fingerprints,
making it hard to see how nice the screens really were.

They're trying, but it was clear to me they needed some time and experience to
round some rough edges.

------
mrich

      The pitches were aggressive, fast-paced, and competitively 
      defensive: they often mentioned “other tablets” and didn’t 
      let me forget which features were “not available on any 
      other tablet”.
    

This sounds like a description of the iPad mini keynote.

~~~
randomchars
My thoughts exactly.

------
andrewfelix
How surprising, Marco panning Microsoft products.

That store experience does sound awful though. There's nothing more off
putting than over eager sales staff interrupting your curiosity.

~~~
niels_olson
I have been to MSFT stores in San Diego and Seattle. They were like that
before Surface. I felt dirty, and a little sad for everyone in the store.

~~~
jser
Visiting their store feels like you've stepped into a Halloween horror movie.

The staff must be forced to take lithium at the start of each shift. At the
Microsoft store in Chicago, it's not only empty and in the least 'cool' part
of the city (distant suburbs), but the constant demos felt like I was a victim
in a Saw movie. I had to enthusiastically play a Kinect game... or else.

------
forrestthewoods
This post is 1/100th as useful as full write ups from Wired, Verge,
ArsTechnica, or Anandtech. It's just not deep, insightful, or meaningful in
comparison. I'd highly recommend reading those reviews if you're looking for
anything insightful about the Surface.

------
hizanberg
Seriously? blue uniforms, white name tags, flat display tables, guru bars...
It's like they purposely tried to copy every distinguishable Apple retail
formula except they're pushing PCs.

Does noone have any creativity left anymore?

~~~
bbissoon
It's not about creativity when you're running a store. It's about finding a
method that works and tweaking it to fit your product.

The creativity is in the product and advertising.

~~~
hizanberg
So every other tech retail company that doesn't copy Apple is foolish? If
that's the case we're headed towards a bland, uninspiring world.

~~~
bbissoon
The loyalty of Apple's consumers speaks volume. It's only natural for tech
companies to follow their lead. It's about great customers service and that's
not limited to Apple.

------
khalidmbajwa
Is it just me, or does the Article really does comes across as quite snarky in
tone rather than an honest observation of what he saw ?

~~~
randomchars
It's just you.

------
exodust
Why oh why did I read another pointless Apple fanboy article. It really isn't
worth taking sides with these big companies and their sales tactics... Both
play cheap awkward tricks. Both are trying to get your money and manipulate
your habits.

The last line of the article says it all "I fled Windows 8 years ago with no
intention of returning". Wow, thanks for that information. I really needed to
know about your blind faith in Apple, and your feelings for Windows. I'm sure
you attend Apple store openings and queue for the high-fives and woot-woots.

------
dmix
> it wasn’t clear whether there just wasn’t a hidden context menu at that
> moment or I just screwed up the swipe

This was the hardest thing for me when I was trying out Windows 8. Was never
sure the menu didn't exist or my mouse wasn't in the corner properly.

------
kordless
After reading maybe 1/4 of this I was left thinking if you can't say something
positive, don't say anything at all.

~~~
jser
Without criticism, nothing will improve.

~~~
Magenta
Depends on the criticism. Constructive criticism, sure. Blinkered, petty,
negative criticism from someone who made up his mind years ago? Not so much.

------
RyJones
His impression pretty much matches mine, except I'm more enthused by the
keyboard covers. I find OSKs intolerable; I agree with his assessment that
Office is useless for creation - I will argue that having a full-fidelity
viewer is very nice for attachment handling.

------
tankbot
It's obvious that the writer is an Apple person but the piece doesn't feel too
biased.

This makes me a little sad, I was rooting for Microsoft this time.

~~~
modarts
Doesnt't feel biased? Was I reading the same post?

~~~
berntb
Ok, enough is enough. I have read too much of this.

The author made serious points (even the store uniforms(!) are copied, bad
animation handling, office apps are slow, etc, etc).

Why are the anti-Apple fan boys just complaining that the article is biased --
instead of _showing_ that it is biased by answering the "biased" points?

~~~
modarts
The entire tone of his post from the outset seemed like he really had an axe
to grind. It was like reading an article Fox News would publish about an Obama
rally.

~~~
berntb
I asked for arguments against the _content_ of the article.

You lack that?

Edit: The criticism of the Surface is echoed here:
[http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2012/10/microsoft-surface-rt-
revie...](http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2012/10/microsoft-surface-rt-review-this-
is-technological-heartbreak/) (I'm not going to bother to read more about non-
retina pads/laptops. My eyes are too old and spoiled.)

~~~
modarts
Id have to quote the entire post to give you an example. I just found it to be
overly smug and condescending, especially regarding Microsoft store employees
(attempting to "trap" one of them with the soundcard question? Nerd arrogance
at its finest.)

Granted there was a fair amount of valid criticism, but it was mainly the
biased tone I was addressing.

------
pacomerh
This guy is naturally arrogant. I totally understand how Microsoft is missing
the point but come on, what is the point of this article?, is he trying to
point out that people are missing these kind of things?.

------
hdra
I don't why would an adult would even bother to write something like this.

~~~
pacomerh
This is totally true, this guy has crossed the line of constructive criticism.
But its kind of obvious, his main (maybe only) income comes from apple, so he
has to compare everything to his life provider.

------
dokem
> It was like arguing with a Tea Partier.

I'm sorry, but why was this comparison necessary?

~~~
randomchars
Because he can't say arguing with a christian. Are you one of them?

~~~
dokem
I am not, it just seemed like an immature comparison to make.

------
myspy
I don't know why it is so hard to understand, that some people want to have
the best experience.

The iPad does not everything, but at what it does, it tries to be the best.

The Surface is trying to be best at everything, but that creates so many
trade-offs, it drags down the user experience.

I left Win XP, and Windows 7 did not make me come back, because there are so
many things that lack decision making in leaving features out rather than
putting everything in. Metro is a step in the right direction, but it needs
more finish.

A computer should help you, and guide you to achieve a goal. A Win PC usually
needs a lot of work to bend him in a way which enables you to do your task.
And I have enough of that.

Why do I need experts in an Office program? Why not making the Office program
so intuitive, that it is super easy to create a set of documents? Why not
cutting unnecessary features out? A Metro version of Office, which does that,
wouldn't that be great?

Furthermore, I don't want to tinker, I don't want to dig through five layers
of settings.

I want to see the IT world going on. And Windows was not really helping in
pushing the world forward in the last decade. Apple did. That's why some of
the praise and "fanboism" is justified.

Let's see who leads the next decade, but have an open mind and acknowledge the
fact that people like Marco, Gruber, or MG have an idea of what they are
talking about.

They give credit where credit is due. But MS has to do a lot more to earn that
credit. Maybe they have to cut some things out of the Metro side and go dual
platform. It will help to make Metro something that pushes forward the whole
industry.

When a lot of people are used to Win 8, maybe it's a good thing to go separate
ways with Win 9. The "professionals" will use their desktop and the rest is
used to Metro and maybe they will see how it excels the desktop version with
ease of use.

------
taylorbuley
I've got VMWare Fusion on a Macbook Air so I have the luxury of being able to
pick my OS and application for most tasks (usually OS X, sometimes Ubuntu and
rarely Windows). I took Windows 8 for a test drive today and I will be happily
replacing the native OS X Calendar and Mail with the Windows 8 alternatives.

~~~
josteink
Mail? Seriously?

I'm using Windows 8 on my (non touchscreen) laptop, for the overall
improvements on the platform and I'm very happy about it so far. And it means
I have day to day experience using it.

And so far, I think the Mail-app is one of the weakest apps to the point where
I wondered if Microsoft is seriously releasing this as their RTM, finalized
Mail-client for the masses.

If I may ask: What part about it do you find so faverouble? Is there some
hidden gem I have missed?

~~~
taylorbuley
Noted in a sibling comment, not being able to drag mail is a bummer. And on
further exploration I definitely miss being able to search. But selecting it
and moving it isn't too bad, and I can use mail.google.com when I need to --
overall I'm not concerned about a lack of features for this desktop client.

My guess would be that they applied the Aol user principle to the mail app and
figured you'd use Outlook if you need a more featureful application.

~~~
bztzt
You can search with the search charm

------
mun2mun
Just look at the caption of third image. He is so much into trolling that he
didn't mind pulling his son into it.

------
smackfu
This is pretty much the same insufferable stuff he goes into when he talks
about Microsoft on his podcast. A general ignorance because he never uses the
stuff (except long wnough to look for flaws) but that doesn't stop him from
being an expert in his mind. I just hit the two minute skip button until I get
to the Apple topics where I think he has informed opinions.

~~~
Magenta
..but he used Microsoft products, 8 years ago! Doesn't that make him an expert
on all things Microsoft?

------
bztzt
well, he correctly noticed that the gestures and animations take a different
approach than Apple's but that apparently just makes them "wrong" to him -
Apple's is the only valid approach.

fwiw, here's a good presentation of the design rationale behind the use of
animations in Windows 8:
<http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/BUILD2011/APP-206T>

Gestures:
[http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/TechDays/Techdays-2012-the-N...](http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/TechDays/Techdays-2012-the-
Netherlands/2373)

~~~
jopt
Can't you summarize? I don't have 120 minutes. If you spend one minute making
your point, and I spend one minute reading it, this conversation will be more
efficient.

Sources are great when they support or expand on points you're making, but
they're no replacement for dialogue. The comments become really spammy if it's
all just links to videos and research papers.

~~~
bztzt
Yeah, I realized most / everyone probably wouldn't have time to watch but
hoped someone might be interested. I guess my basic point is that the
animations and gestures are deliberately designed to feel more precise and
clarify the discrete actions you're taking (which is to put a more positive
spin on what he describes negatively as "feeling like a computer" - not that
either spin is right or wrong). It's a purposeful contrast to Apple's bubblier
approach, it's not that they tried to make their animations like Apple's but
Didn't Get It.

~~~
jopt
Thanks, that's a good point. I haven't seen the Microsoft Surface in person,
but this is throwing some doubt on Marco's testimony.

------
Shinkei
Good lord... this is an article written by someone with an incredible bias. I
mean he takes so many low-blows on the salespeople and belittles everyone and
everything about the store. They are trained to sell things to an average
consumer... not a tech-savvy blogger who knows his/her stuff. Most consumers
don't even know what a sound card is or that a computer has ram. Marco needs
to relax... not to mention that his mean-spirited article with identifiable
employee faces could subject him to civil liability.

------
radicalbyte
Am I the only one who finds this blind following of a specific platform all
rather childish?*

Platform zealotry is the domain of children, the feeble minded and host of
shills who feed on the above two groups (and the platform holder's marketing
budgets).

* Rhetorical question (I expect that most HNers agree).

------
underwater
So apparently the stores are too much like Apple's, but the tablet is not
similar enough.

The one to one feature comparison to the iPad is silly. The surface is not
trying to be a carbon copy. Features like retina display come with trade offs
in power, speed and cost that were obviously not worth the trade off. It seems
that ever since Apple raised the issue pixels have gone from being something
few ever thought about to being physically painful to consumer's eyeballs.

There were a few factual inaccuracies in Marco's post. The touch keyboard does
allow you to rest your fingers on the surface. It's smart enought to recognize
what is intended to be an actual keystroke. Rotating the screen does show a
transition too; the screen shrinks, fades and expands.

------
nextstep
I could not agree more with the distinction the author draws between Apple's
products and Microsoft. Sure, Apple's ecosystem is limited, but Microsoft's
offering is very rough and will do many tasks poorly at the cost of doing just
a few tasks well.

------
mythz
This looks just like the Apple Store, but without the customers :)

------
6ren
I feel bad for Microsoft. When you are first with a new product with great
benefits, everyone forgives your missteps, because it's the only one - the
best there is. But when you copy, you are competing with something that has
been through iterations of feedback and corrections and bugfix and
improvement. You are held to that higher standard, even though you're just
starting out!

Also, in the past, Apple regulated the user-experience with the Mac (whereas
the PC was open), which seems to have been too constraining. It might seem
that history could repeat here, but there's a crucial difference: tablets are
now a consumer device, like Sony used to make.

------
mariusmg
This guy is biased. That's all.

~~~
corporalagumbo
So does this alleged "bias" invalidate his criticisms of Microsoft's retail
efforts?

~~~
deong
I don't know. That's the problem with bias. I haven't seen a surface in person
or visited a Microsoft store, but from the entire tone of the article, I know
I can't trust his account. He may be a veritable prophet with regards to
Microsoft and the Surface, but if I can't trust him (and I don't), I'll have
to figure that out on my own.

------
rhplus
The pictures clearly show that the entire mall is empty, not just the
Microsoft store.

------
kmfrk
Glad to see he went in there with an open mind.

------
rjzzleep
not a ms person here(not at ALL in fact).

but ok i get it, was reading, then started skimming, then got to the
conclusion tl;dr.

apple store employees handing out stupid useless flyers in the middle of the
street in gangs of 3 is better of course.

microsoft is giving out muffin fragments? i'm surprised they gave out anything
at all.

------
jemeshsu
For Apple we have MG, Gruber and Marco. For Microsoft, is there any? And for
Google?

------
ditoa
I am waiting to see the pricing on the Surface Pro. That is what I am
interested in. I was very close to buying an ultrabook but am holding off to
see how the SP is as a general computer as well as a tablet.

------
petercooper
Oh my.. this cringeworthy exchange reminds me of when Larry David tried
selling cars :-) <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neqO5y3Xaq8>

------
jamesbrennan
Great article.

I get that some want the hardware upgradeability of MS PCs, but your can't do
anything to Windows because its closed source. I buy Macs because I get the
benefits of both a polished and (somewhat) open source operating system - not
to mention its Unix. Also, in Apple hardware you actually know what you're
getting - the majority of it is Intel. With other manufacturers unless you
custom build your machine, its hard to know what you're actually getting
inside beyond the specs on paper.

------
ezolotko
It is especially sad to read such an article after the release of iOS 6.
Before, it was a bit rude, biased and all, but now I feel it cannot be
_justified_ anymore.

~~~
corporalagumbo
What are you trying to imply? That criticisms of Microsoft's retail efforts
are no longer valid because Apple made a mistake with Maps?

~~~
ezolotko
Not exactly. I personally suffer from how the AppStore iOS application is
made. Then the maps. The quality of many details is lost. After such obvious
defects, it is hard to be in position to be extravagant and rude. The love is
gone.

------
brackin
It's true that the Surface is coming in at a 10" form-factor when the iPad
holds 70% of the market and the real battle is happening on the 7", slightly
lower end market.

~~~
evoxed
I had a bit of a tinfoil hat epiphany just yesterday about this... consider:

-Until now, Apple has been adamant about _not_ releasing a smaller iPad.

-Apple has a ridiculously efficient supply chain which can probably adapt very well, considering the next point...

-Tim Cook just went on record saying that Apple wasn't concerned about product cannibalization.

-The Surface tablet is just about to stick it's foot in the door, well after Apple has established itself at the top.

Aside from the obvious (consumer demand), does anyone else think this might
just be one of the most comfortable bets they can make? Put out 7" tablets
while they're hot, let people forget about the Surface, by the time Surface 2
goes 7" they can push out a much newer full iPad line...

~~~
r00fus
I honestly think Tim doesn't really see Microsoft as a threat just yet. The
iPad mini is a response to low-price disruption from Amazon and Google.

I think Amazon's "$50/year data plan" gives more heartburn to Apple
strategists than anything Microsoft has put on the table or even hinted at.

------
nnq
"It feels too much like using a Windows PC" ...bingo!

That's the point, Windows 7 and 8 offer great desktop experiences and having
"one system to rule them all" is the selling point ...though I'd rather have
an x86 version of the tablet with the ability to use exactly the same software
since the type cover is basically a usable keyboard ...hope Intel does some
magic with ultra low power x86 chips soon

------
mtgx
The MS store employee who says you can't see any pixels is obviously lying,
and I'm guessing that's what Microsoft told them to say.

------
bornhuetter
This is just pure trollbait. It's disappointing to see it on HN, as it doesn't
provoke any useful discussion whatsoever.

------
lifeisstillgood
If the alternate universe is one where "you can expand and alter even if it
sucks" then can I boot BSD on surface?

------
olgeni
Of course, Apple clearly offers the best design, performance, user experience,
documentation, reliability, and overall quality.

(pause)

Can I have my UIGlassButton now?

Even Genius-blue-only would be a start.

------
kirillzubovsky
Very entertaining. Thank you for posting!

------
recoiledsnake
>The Surface is partially for Microsoft’s world of denial: the world in which
this store contains no elephants and Microsoft invented the silver store with
the glass front and the glowing logo and blue shirts and white lanyards and
these table layouts and the modern tablet and its magnetic power cable

Huh what? It looks like Marco's the one living in an alternate universe. I
seriously doubt anyone would believe that. The whole "if you don't adore the
iPad you're in denial" thing says more about the writer than the Microsoft
store salesman. What bugs me the most about the Apple bloggers like Gruber,
Siegler and Marco is their hate towards anything non-Apple, especially Android
and Microsoft. It's one thing to like something, but to hate on something else
because of that is very narrow minded.

~~~
w1ntermute
To be honest, it's time to ban Macro's blog from HN. Every time one of his
trollbait posts hits the frontpage of this site (and they somehow _always_
do), we have these exact same discussions about how him and Gruber and Siegler
are incapable of looking at the technology industry without bias.

~~~
skrebbel
Wait, ban a site because it's consistently popular on HN? Clearly, many people
here agree with him. (I don't, but that's OK)

~~~
cooldeal
Funny, because Paul Thurrott's <http://winsupersite.com> _is_ completely
banned from being on HN, most probably from overzealous MS haters flagging
articles to death.

~~~
skrebbel
I think that's ridiculous too. In fact, I'm as much a fanboy of Microsoft as
Marco is of Apple - my comment wasn't about the content, it was about the
ridiculousness of banning popular sites about HN-typical topics.

------
davidpayne11
You need some credibility before you write articles about huge corporations
that have achieved something. Atleast you must be somewhere near the top of
the hierarchy where your subject is, to understand fully about them, so you
can even _consider_ writing about them. I fail to see how a guy with an app on
an Appstore can think he is credible enough to write about a huge corporation
that has taken risks he wouldn't even imagine taking himself and has had first
hand experience and information about the market better than this guy.
Microsoft is the one that makes the marketplace and Marco is just someone who
submits his apps there. That's the difference in their positions in the
hierarchy. What a shitty article.

~~~
corporalagumbo
He walked into a store and hated it. For any company that cares about success
he is credible.

