

Who Are the H-1Bs? - pantero
http://visual.ly/who-are-h-1bs

======
rayiner
> 63.8% of world's engineering degrees are earned in China.

Weird statistic to use. It's well-known that the majority of engineers
graduated in China and India are unemployably bad, and the statistic itself is
based on debunked data.

See:
[http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870351550457614...](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703515504576142092863219826.html),
[http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-
dyn/content/article/2006/05...](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-
dyn/content/article/2006/05/19/AR2006051901760.html),
[http://www.engineeringuk.com/_resources/documents/Engineerin...](http://www.engineeringuk.com/_resources/documents/Engineering_Graduates_in_China_and_India_-
_EngineeringUK_-_March_2012.pdf),
[http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2006/06/13/62945...](http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2006/06/13/629452.aspx)

~~~
tapsboy
To provide a counter perspective, even if you consider that the un-employable
majority would be 90% (highly unlikely), the remaining 10% equal the total
number of engineering graduates from US and that is if you consider that
entire 100% graduating out of American colleges are employable.

~~~
rayiner
If you look at this study:
[http://www.engineeringuk.com/_resources/documents/Engineerin...](http://www.engineeringuk.com/_resources/documents/Engineering_Graduates_in_China_and_India_-
_EngineeringUK_-_March_2012.pdf).

A McKinsey study found that only 10% of Chinese engineering graduates were
employable, versus 80% of American and German ones.

A Duke study found that the number for the U.S. was more like 130,000
engineers with bachelors degrees. If 80% are employable, that's a larger
number than for either India or China.

See also:
[http://www.businessweek.com/stories/2006-07-09/engineering-g...](http://www.businessweek.com/stories/2006-07-09/engineering-
gap-fact-and-fiction)

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ehm_may
Have an indian friend who graduated from a top engineering program. I've never
seen someone freak out (for fear of being kicked out of the country) so much
between graduating and finding a job.

Moving from job to job is miserable. You have to ensure the company will pay
for the H-1B. This has negative consequences because instead of moving to a
place where you can perform better, you will often stay at the current
employer and get taken advantage of.

~~~
john_b
I have a number of Iranian friends who are now finishing up their PhDs. Having
a hostile and suspicious government to go back to adds a qualitatively
different level of stress to the process. With CISPA/SOPA and all the concern
over the gradual decline in American freedoms, it's easy to forget that the US
is still a comparatively free country. Here, my friends can openly criticize
the President or any other member of government all they want without fear of
consequences; doing so back home would lead to a different outcome.

Another sad aspect of the whole H1B situation is that, even if they aren't put
through abuse at work, these are extremely talented people who often settle
for jobs that are more suitable for a bachelors or masters degree holder
because they have only a short time to find a large company willing to pay for
the H1B, which greatly limits their options. The nature of work available to
them is also more restricted. Want to work on military aircraft or certain
navigation systems? Too bad.

I have none of these obstacles, not because I am more capable, trustworthy, or
loyal, but merely because I was born in the US.

------
geekam
>>63.8% of world's engineering degrees are earned in China.

We have to accept that even though the quality may suffer, the idea of mass
producing engineers at least affects the job market. I think that not every
engineer from India or China is looking for 'quality work' and they can and
many times do settle for jobs that are lesser appealing but still require
engineering degrees.

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greenyoda
Comparing salaries of H-1B holders with citizens across the entire industry
doesn't really provide a lot of information, since they may be concentrated in
particular corners of the industry that pay higher than average salaries
(e.g., Silicon Valley). It would be far more enlightening to compare salaries
by company to see whether a given company underpays its H-1B employees
relative to other employees of the same category. Since an H-1B employee can't
easily go to a competitor if he thinks he's being underpaid, he has
considerably less negotiating leverage than a citizen, which makes it unlikely
that he'd earn a higher salary for the same job at the same company.

Also, in my opinion, the pictures and quotes from Zuckerberg and Schmidt at
the bottom detract from the credibility of this presentation, making the whole
thing seem a lot like propaganda for their lobbying group.

------
supercanuck
I think one of the keys to this debate is mobility. I know from my field, SAP
Consulting, that clients are now able to offer rock bottom rates with the
expectation of a "consultant" relocating or living with other "consultants" in
order to avoid paying travel expenses.

So while the salary remains the same, the expense equation is different.

This is partly why folks like me lament the H1-B problem because it increased
the supply of "consultants" which is frustrating because in the SAP space is
very specialized and finding projects is very difficult, double that for
regional projects. It sucks because it feels like companies can play on the
international labor market yet American workers are limited to the regional
ones.

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TheCoelacanth
If H1-B's are far more educated than the average American, but only paid
slightly more on average, doesn't that mean the H1-B's are underpaid?

~~~
mwctahoe
thats a poor comparison for the education, the average american isnt doing the
same kind of work but the comparison for pay is based on the sectors of
employment so they are well compensated. And many h1-bs attend undergrad in
their home countries and grad school in the US to make them more appealing to
US companies, so they are "more educated" because they have the masters but a
masters is only 1-2 more years of school depending on the program so it isnt
really a big gap.

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ebbv
I agree the title is offensive and it should probably be titled "Who are the
H-1B workers?" or something like that.

Let me also state up top; _I am extremely liberal, to the point where I am
offended by the current terrible paths to citizenship for undocumented
workers. I am not against immigration of all kinds._

With that out of the way let's go through slide by slide:

Assertion 1:

 _H-1B workers are more highly educated than US born workers because they have
a higher rate of Masters and Doctoral degrees than US born workers._

This is assuming that all Masters are better than all Bachelors degrees, and
all Doctorates are better than all Masters degrees. Anyone with any experience
knows this isn't the case. Some educational institutions are better than
others.

I don't know if on average US degrees are better than non-US degrees. But I
think this is a weak assertion based on a potentially false assumption.

Assertion 2:

 _H-1B workers actually do not drive wages down, they actually make ~10% more
than US born workers._

This is an exceedingly weak assertion because it is comparing all H-1B workers
against ALL US born workers. For low paying jobs H-1B workers won't even be
considered. So the US born workers' mean income is going to be lower. H-1B
workers will only be considered for positions above a certain pay level, and
at companies who are a big enough size to pursue H-1B staffing.

So this figure is very misleading. It should be comparing H-1B workers
directly against their US born coworkers at the same companies in the same
positions. Or at least, again, the same positions at companies of comparable
size.

Assertion 3a-3c:

3a _Skill gaps MAY develop or worsen because people are retiring._

Weaksauce. People are always retiring. There are also always more people
graduating with CS degrees than ever before. Doesn't hold water at all. Gives
itself away with the weasel word "may".

3b. _Too few Americans are graduating with degrees in engineering._

Only 6.3% of the world's engineering degrees are earned in the U.S. Oh golly
gee. And what percentage of the world's population are we again? 400 million
divided by 7 billion = 5.7%. Sounds like we're doing OK to me.

Regardless that has nothing to do with the need to bring in more outside
engineers. The question is how many engineering jobs we have vs. how many
engineering degrees. And this figure has nothing to do with that.

3c. _The demand for computer occupations will grow at an average pace of 25%
over the next decade._

Ok. Let's just assume these projections are accurate. So what? 25% more jobs
over 10 years, when we have how many new CS graduates every year? Where's that
figure? We need both. Quick googling showed ~50k kids enrolled in CS degrees
in the US in 2012, and this graph shows we'll need 200k new programmers over
the next 10 years. Seems to me we'll be more than keeping up with that demand.

Assertion 4a-4b:

4a. _Immigrants started 28% of all new US businesses._

This has nothing to do with the H-1B issue at all. It's just being used to try
to skew the next one. But the problem is this figure isn't just about H-1B
immigrants, and in fact it isn't at all about them because they are legally
prevented from starting any new business, at least until they get their
citizenship.

4b. _Don't say that H-1B workers take away jobs from US workers because one
day H-1B workers may become US citizens, and will start their own businesses._

That's really weak. They're not taking a job because they _might_ one day
start a company that makes more jobs? One really doesn't have anything to do
with the other. A US born worker who got that job might have one day started a
company as well. In fact, they are much more likely than an H-1B immigrant,
who is legally not able to do so.

Summary:

This infographic is incredibly biased and clearly made with an agenda in mind.

The reality is that big companies like H-1B workers because they work for
less. It's that simple. It's an easy equation for Microsoft, Facebook, Google,
et al. Hire the worker that costs the least and will still do the job
adequately.

I'm personally in favor of immigration. I think it's great. But it can also be
abused and lead to economic devastation for US workers.

As someone born and raised in Michigan, I can tell you first hand what happens
when US companies are allowed to run rampant with reassigning jobs to the
person who's willing to work for the absolute least amount of money.

It _might_ make sense to increase the number of H-1B visas, but it needs to be
based on real analysis of available jobs vs. available US based workers. Not a
biased infographic like this, filled with half truths and unrelated figures.

EDIT:

Let me also say that if we were serious about fixing the H-1B situation, our
priority would be to treat the people brought over to work here more like
human beings and less like indentured servants.

H-1B workers are unable to seek alternate employment if they don't like the
situation at their employer who brought them here. They are thus not able to
negotiate for better pay or promotions.

Before we go doubling the number of H-1B workers (which is wht Zuckerberg, et
al want short of being free to hire ALL H-1B workers), we should fix the
program's inhumane rules.

~~~
rayiner
> This is assuming that all Masters are better than all Bachelors degrees, and
> all Doctorates are better than all Masters degrees. Anyone with any
> experience knows this isn't the case. Some educational institutions are
> better than others.

It also assumes that a Masters in India is comparable to a Masters in the
United States. This is flat out untrue. Only a small percentage of
universities in say India churn out bachelors and masters degree holders that
can stand toe to toe with their American counterparts. Everyone in tech knows
this. There is a reason why the top Indian candidates attend grad school in
the U.S.

~~~
arkem
The quality of the applicant's educational institution is taken into account
by USCIS/DoL. The applicant provides a statement from a US education assessor
as to the quality and scope of their non-US degrees.

For example someone with a 4 year Computer Science degree from a disreputable
foreign university might only be able to claim equivalence with a US Associate
Bachelors in Information Systems degree rather than a 4 year US CS degree.

While it's always fraught to compare educational institutions from across the
world, the United States at least acknowledges that it isn't a trivial problem
when assessing visa applications.

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mdb31
Referring to people by their US visa class is, eh, a little demeaning. I’m not
a H1-B, B-1 or L-1: I’m your coworker, a tourist, or just plain a human being.

~~~
califdreamin
It's just for purposes of making a title shorter. I was an H-1B once, so what?

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boggzPit
it's simply sad, that the government is not able to react to the huge demand
of foreign workers. Especially that they kick out students which got educated
in US universities, just after one year.

------
CleanedStar
There is nothing to argue here really. The two little Wall Street Journal
drawn bobble heads of two billionaires borne of the professional class can
tell you that. They, the 1%, have their interests, and people such as myself,
who work and create wealth, have our interests. Were American workers, or even
Indian workers, consulted about how this visa be set up? Of course not. It was
created by the myrmidons of the idle class to further their interests.

There is no argument. Do you think these billionaires argue among themselves
whether to stuff their pockets or let working people keep the weath they
create? This is not like scientists together debating quantum mechanics
theories to seek the truth. This is a struggle over how the pie is divided up.
People don't state arguments, any statement they make is just one of which
faction they're in, a worker creating wealth, or some heir (or proxy of that
heir) who owns a lot of Facebook and Google stock. This web site is owned by
people proclaiming themselves with the word capitalists, "venture"
capitalists. Obviously it will reflect in this way, although there are a lot
of programmers who come here and discuss C and Lisp and JavaScript and so
forth as well.

Obviously this professionally done graphic has a lot of nonsense in it, and
all of this has been debunked over and over, and one can read Norm Matloff and
others to see this. I'll just do the first point as more is a waste of my
time. The first graphic says "college-educated workers in any occupation,
22-64". Well first off, this is very bogus - college educated workers go into
all professions, but H1-Bs go into professions like IT. They don't make the
chart showing what the degrees of people in IT and correlated industries are
because then more Americans would have Masters. Also it is again in all
industries and shows US 41.4 and H1-B 32 for age. I'm sure if you correlated
for age, the US age would be younger. And so just as a product of age, more
younger Americans would have a college degree as older workers have a less of
a chance of having an advanced degree. The chart cheats by comparing H1Bs in
IT etc. to all college-edcuated Americans who are in less education focused
professions and who are also older then in IT. The rest of the infographic is
bogus like this but you can read Norm Matloff and others if you wish.

