
Ford to boost investment in electric cars by 2022 - tankenmate
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-42689637
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bischofs
I'll wait till I hear they have a model actually moving to production.

The big oems across the board have been great at convincing people they are
looking toward future tech while only releasing new combustion pickup truck
and SUV models. They want the excitement for the investors and public that
electrification brings but they also want to sell super simple 50 year old V8
motors in body-on-frame trucks, something has to give.

The 2018 auto show is a great example, the big three refreshed all of their
pickup models without any news on production or prototype ev's. The
"investments" dont mean much if they are minuscule compared to combustion
development.

Granted its what people are buying right now but they are not really putting
any compelling alternatives out in the market.

~~~
vvanders
I wouldn't got that far on the truck front, in fact Ford just announced a V6
Turbo Diesel half-ton that should get 30MPG(the Dodge equivalent EcoDiesel
already sees 28-30mpg in real-world scenarios). You're not going to see a
truck that will fill that role as pure EV for a long while(and I say that as a
Model S owner).

Agreed on the announce-but-not-build front. VW did the same but seems like GM
is the only one following through.

~~~
bischofs
I see your point with electric pickup trucks, they will probably be the last
to convert.

Also I would point out that 3.0 ford engine you are referring to has been
around since 2009 as the lion engine in various international markets.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_AJD-V6/PSA_DT17](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_AJD-V6/PSA_DT17)

It probably has a different calibration for the US market to meet stricter
emissions but that's about it.

~~~
Robotbeat
I don't see that point.

About 15-20 years ago, pickups were the go-to vehicle for DIY electric
conversions (particularly the Chevy S-10). You could put the heavy lead-acid
batteries under the bed and therefore lose no space.

There's no fundamental reason why trucks are less likely to electrify than
other vehicles. In fact, the greater fuel savings makes it seem even more
likely.

The only thing standing in the way is that some people who buy pickups are
part of the idiotic anti-environment movement that likes to "roll coal" (i.e.
modify their trucks to spew black smoke). But not everyone who buys pickups is
like this, which is why fuel-efficient pickups are a thing.

The torque and power of the electric drivetrain make it possible to make an
insanely good truck. It'll happen sooner than you think, certainly before
2022.

~~~
vvanders
There's a couple things that make trucks a hard nut to crack(again I say this
as a Model S + diesel truck owner).

1\. There's a 6k GVWR weight limit for a lot of local streets. Most half-ton
trucks are in the 5200k range so adding 2k of batteries easily puts you over
this.

2\. Trucks are rated for total tow capacity, adding 2k of batteries means you
cut towing capacity by 2k or upgrade the brakes/drivetrain which adds more
weight.

3\. Trucks aren't that aerodynamic, trailers even less so. That means per-kW
you're going to get a lot less range than something that has a good Cd.

4\. Charging stations just aren't setup for trailers at all. You'd have to
find a place to unhitch, charge and rehitch which adds even more travel time.

For commercial trucking routes you can probably go electric sooner since they
are regular routes but for consumer trucks I don't see it happening soon.

Recently we had to drive 400mi roundtrip towing a 5k lb trailer @ 18 MPG.
Going from a GGE of 37kw/gal * 0.5 thermal we would have needed a 412kWh
battery pack to make that trip with 0% range left.

~~~
mulmen
1-2: How much does a diesel fuel tank + transmission + engine weigh? Would it
really require _adding_ 2,000lb of batteries to the truck or can something
serviceable be built with a similar overall weight?

3: Why does an electric truck have to look like a gasoline truck? can it be
repackaged to be more aerodynamic?

4: This is trivially easy to solve.

How many times did you stop for fuel on your trip? How long were you at your
destination 200 miles away?

~~~
vvanders
> 1-2

Doubt it considering all BEVs are heavier. Our Model S weights nearly the same
as our half-ton and that's without the frame-reinforcement needing to tow.

> 3

If you want standard truck clearance and bed sizes you're not going to do this
without making trucks a lot longer. For reference our Model S and short-bed
quad cab are already close in length.

> 4

Easy in theory but _massive_ infrastructure investment. Also if you've ever
towed a trailer then you'd know there's some sidestreets where superchargers
are where you physically cannot turn around a trailer.

For reference we did the trip in 4 hours, no stopping since the truck has a
26gal tank. I'm as big of a proponent of EVs as you'll find but you also can't
just blindly assert that EVs will work everywhere if you want to convince
people that you aren't crazy. There are realistic limits and I think applying
the technology where it makes sense is the fastest way to drive adoption.

------
derekp7
Here's what I'd like to see. Either a plugin hybrid version of the Ford Fusion
that gets at least 50 - 100 miles in EV mode (instead of 21), or something
like a Tesla with a smaller (50 - 75 mile) battery powering the front wheels,
with a 50-HP ICE powering the rear wheels. Something like this could still
give you more than 95% EV-only, yet can still be your main car as you have the
ICE as a range extender. And by trading battery for the gas engine, you end up
with about the same weight/cost as a 350-mile range EV only car, but never
have range anxiety.

~~~
mtgx
Oh, the elusive toaster/fridge hybrid.

[https://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2403481,00.asp](https://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2403481,00.asp)

This type of products is always higher cost, higher maintenance (two different
powertrains), and generally the _worst_ of both worlds (small battery and weak
ICE).

The future is fully powered EVs. If buses and semis can be that, then
certainly passenger vehicles can, too.

~~~
Robotbeat
I agree with you that full EVs are ultimately the future, but the Chevy Volt
is a fantastic interim step. It's not higher maintenance than a regular ICE
vehicle because the engine is rarely used.

The battery is also big enough that you can drive it pure electric for the
vast majority of trips, at full highway speeds. Most other plug-in hybrids
can't do that, and I agree they suck.

(The Volt's battery is also carefully used only in the middle ~65%, i.e. not
charged all the way and not fully discharged. That extends the battery life
dramatically. It can get away with that because the battery is much larger
than most other plug-in hybrids.)

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gpsx
To make electric cars really mainstream, I think it would help to make some
standard, easily removable battery modules that different manufacturers use.
Then they sell the electyric car without battery and you lease the battery
from providers something like a gas stations.

It's not a new idea. I think it is just a matter of waiting for the market to
be ready. But its kind of a chicken and egg problem.

~~~
elsonrodriguez
I don't think introducing another recurring payment is the best thing for
society. The market will be ready for battery leases when the average person
can't afford their own battery outright.

~~~
gpsx
Jsut to be clear, the idea was that you would go to the gas station and trade
in an empty battery for a full one. In this case it is better for the people
to not own the battery since they will be getting different ones all the time.

Of course it would also make sense to allow people to keep the battery and
recharge it themselves, in which case they would be paying for holding the
battery.

~~~
craftyguy
I wholeheartedly agree, and believe that this model is the only way to make
electric vehicles mainstream.

Battery performance/range can only be improved so much with the current
technology (and future battery tech. is still a looong ways off), and not
everyone is willing to wait tens of minutes to charge their vehicles (e.g.
when on long-distance trips.)

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madengr
Electrifying current models, as the article says, is a bad idea. You loose
many advantages of an electric car, such as more interior room.

I’m surprised Toyota is so far behind.

~~~
tankenmate
I suspect the reason that Ford are electrifying current models is because of
two reasons, a) inventors dilemma and the sales teams / channels that don't
want to undercut their current stock of models, and b) for an organisation as
large as Ford the change will take years to plan. I'd look for ground up EVs
from Ford after two more year model cycles (i.e. about 6 years time); even if
they wanted to move quicker I suspect that organisationally they'd struggle.

Toyota are still wedded to the hybrid models of cars, they are the world
leaders there, by volume heads and shoulders the first, by technology first or
very nearly so.

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protomyth
I'm looking forward to an hybrid F-150. It would be nice to have the batteries
under the bed so I don't have to buy the sand in the winter. Since the F-150
family is still the best selling vehicle in the US, its going to be very
interesting when they make the move. A full electric is really going to have
to some decent range when towing or have a quick charge time to be accepted.

~~~
greglindahl
Half of these trucks aren't ever used for towing, so those buyers might not
care about towing range.

~~~
protomyth
Given the effort and marketing Ford is putting into the diesel F-150 with the
better towing capacity, I'm a bit skeptical. Plus, the recreational uses for
normal folks requires towing to parks.

~~~
greglindahl
I think there's plenty of evidence that people who never tow still respond
positively to marketing about towing.

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jonwachob91
> 40 hybrid and fully electric

I suspect the bulk of the 40 will be hybrids, not prius type hybrids, but
918/P1/LaFerrari/i8 type hybrids. They are more fun to drive than 100% gas
cars, and are more green than traditional hybrid vehicles.

~~~
mulmen
What's the difference between a "Prius type hybrid" and a "918 type hybrid"?

~~~
jonwachob91
A Prius does 0-60 in 10.5 seconds [1], a 918 does 0-60 in 2.2 seconds [2].

[1]
[https://www.caranddriver.com/toyota/prius](https://www.caranddriver.com/toyota/prius)

[2]
[https://www.caranddriver.com/features/the-2015-porsche-918-s...](https://www.caranddriver.com/features/the-2015-porsche-918-spyder-
is-the-quickest-road-car-in-the-world-feature-performance-data-and-complete-
specs-page-2)

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pricetag
I really hope this pans out for them. Their stock has been flat for a while
now, but they’ve also claimed they were heavily investing in electric vehicles
for some time as well.

It’ll be interesting to see who will take the lead in the next 5 years-
startup automakers like Tesla or these larger auto titans who in theory should
have been first to the game.

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iagooar
Too late. You can't wait 4 years in this fast-paced world. The best time to
start was tomorrow. The second best is today.

