
Software made me loathe my car - mikl
https://mikkel.hoegh.org/2019/08/29/how-software-made-me-loathe-my-luxury-car
======
mmcclure
I was always pretty skeptical of CarPlay, honestly. Bluetooth audio + maps on
a phone holder seemed like it was perfectly fine, and putting myself even
further into the Apple ecosystem felt unnecessary. In short, I had always
considered an auto's entertainment system/software to be something to ignore.

Renting a car with CarPlay for a week (and a reasonably long "commute" during
that time) completely changed my mind. Typically the only reason I ever used a
built in car display up to this point was...to set up my phone in Bluetooth.
Suddenly I had familiar applications that made that screen useful: Maps,
Overcast (podcasts), Messages (read aloud, not displayed, of course), etc. A
phone in a holder is, of course, totally acceptable and fine, but as I'm just
starting to consider buying my first car in almost a decade I'm suddenly
looking at CarPlay as a requirement.

Other notes on this for those that are interested: A lot of cars with CarPlay
also support Android Auto, and they always have a base system if you'd prefer
not to use either. OP is talking about this from a luxury car perspective, but
it's available in a really wide price range from entry to super-luxury.

~~~
eisa01
I find Carplay dangerous for my use case: As the interface follows what’s
happening on the phone, you often lose the maps and directions as the guy
controlling CarPlay need to check his messages

I have no idea how they’ve managed to design it like this, it’s like they only
think single driver commuters would use it

~~~
bradknowles
I never thought that anyone other than the driver would want to connect their
phone to the head unit in the car, regardless of how many other people might
or might not also be in the car.

On further reflection, I think it's still overall not a good idea. If the
driver wants to change the music being played, or the volume, or whatever, and
there is a passenger in the car with them, then I would think it would be okay
for the driver to have the passenger do that on their behalf. And that might
affect the display.

But I guess I can wait to see if iOS 13 can change my mind.

~~~
diego
You are assuming that the driver's phone is the one connected. The typical use
case is a couple, where either can drive. The first one to look up directions
is the one who connects the phone. I do this all the time with my wife.
Sometimes we have to disconnect one phone and connect the other so the
passenger can continue using the phone without killing the map for the driver.

~~~
Steve44
My kids usually manage the music, it's easy at the moment with an AUX lead so
no real connection with the car. I can see as things are getting more
connected this could have issues.

~~~
majewsky
So glad right now that Apple took the bold step of removing the AUX plug. :)

------
whalesalad
Carplay is definitely non-negotiable.

Car companies are NOT in the business of building infotainment systems. They
are in the business of building cars. A while back, to compete and
differentiate themselves, they all started to build their own touch screen
systems with their own custom interfaces. All of them sucked. Even the ones
that were the best of their class still sucked. Not only that, every single
interface was different. Going from car-to-car meant re-learning a new system.
They all have limited resources to throw at this problem so everything is sub-
par. It's like going to McDonalds for good coffee -- no, you go to a coffee
shop if you want good coffee. McDonalds just provides coffee because they have
to. Same is true for car manufacturers.

Trusting the OEM is just a bad idea. It is better for everyone involved to
give this responsibility to those who are good at it. Apple and Google both
have huge ecosystems of accessories and application developers -- not to
mention massive user bases. Apple and Google have entire teams dedicated to
integrating with auto makers and ensuring that the experience is consistent
across all vehicles.

So why would you want to pay thousands of dollars more to get, for example, a
navigation experience on your car that sucks balls? Instead you can plug in
your smartphone – which some have arguably more computing power than a lot of
commodity PC's sold in the last few years – and have a vastly superior
experience.

~~~
youeseh
Too bad none of them differentiated themselves by not putting anything.

I'd love to buy a luxury car that lets me hook up my iPad for all infotainment
and GPS. Just give me a nice simple dock that looks good with the rest of the
fit and finish.

~~~
underwater
An iPad is not going to survive in a parked car in the hot sun. Supposedly
that's the reason that Tesla's have the "dog mode" aka "Cabin Overheat
Protection". Their cars will cool themselves down to prevent the big
touchscreens from being destroyed by high temperatures.

~~~
cr0sh
Strange - one of my former supervisors had modded his truck's center console
to use a Android tablet of some sort (don't recall which one, but it was
fairly high-end - maybe one of the Samsungs) - it was basically "built-in" and
non-removable; in fact, if you didn't know, you'd believe that it was OEM (it
was a very clean install he'd done).

I'm in Phoenix, Arizona - and even in the middle of summer, with the sun
beating down and turning the inside of every vehicle into an impromptu slow
cooker (seriously - you can slow-cook in your car here in Arizona; that is, if
you don't mind your car smelling like a working kitchen afterward), the LCD
never had any problems that I could see.

I was honestly very surprised, as LCDs are normally very temperature sensitive
(more to cold than to heat - but I would think that the temperatures inside a
car in the summertime would be hot enough to cause problems). Usually, though,
whatever the temperature - if the LCD has problems, once it comes back within
it's normal range it will start working properly again.

------
nimbius
I am a professional engine mechanic by trade, however during my apprenticeship
I worked at a luxury dealership so these complains are painfully familiar to
me. Back in the day, it was the BMW I-Drive controller or the center console
navigation ring that people hated.

Do you want to know how you can tell if someone can actually afford a luxury
car? Its not whether they get good financing, or whether they get options, its
whether or not its _serviced._

>but I’m equally sure I’d be charged some outrageous fee for that “service”.

You see, actual luxury vehicle owners do not question the price at all. They
dont see anything other than the signature box on the invoice. You could for
example as I have, charge $190 just to replace the light in the glovebox, and
they wouldnt think twice about that amount of money. I was once faced with a
BMW owner looking at seven thousand dollars to replace their electronic air-
ride suspension, and the hardest decision they had to make was whether they
should buy _another_ BMW while this one was being serviced.

Luxury owners rarely see opulence as anything more than a disposable
commodity. If they dont like the apps, or if they dont like the stereo, they
just buy a different car. A salesman once told me of a woman who traded her 8
month old Porsche in for a BMW because she didnt like the little song the car
played when it started up.

~~~
lacampbell
What percentage of luxury car owners do you think are living beyond their
means, versus your actual luxury vehicle owners?

I often wonder about the people who drive late model luxury cars, on the rare
occasions I see them in my town. Are they killing it? Or did they buy it on
finance to compete with the Jonses?

~~~
projektfu
All of the luxury car owners near me are beyond their means, because if they
lived here because they’re frugal, they wouldn’t own the car.

~~~
lacampbell
My "this is what I'd do if I was super rich" fantasy isn't a ferrari or a
rolls royce. It's having a driver. I find car ownership and driving stressful.

~~~
kozak
And at that point you go and buy a Rolls-Royce or Bentley because you find
that they are very suitable for a backseat passenger.

------
chadash
Buying a car with too many software bells and whistles is a good way to buy a
car that will look old within just a few years. The software built by the car
companies is almost never updated in a major way. I remember when built-in GPS
was an option for $1-2k extra on a new car... Five years later and the built
in GPS interface looks _ancient_ , and isn't nearly as functional as just
using your phone anyway. I'll take a phone mounted to the dashboard over
built-in GPS any day.

Every car company should provide some basics, like bluetooth connectivity, but
aside from that, Android Auto and Apple Carplay are the ways to go. They get
updated constantly and are made by companies with stakes in keeping them
current. This way, I don't need to purchase a new car to get decent software.

~~~
oppositelock
I would go even farther - I don't want a screen in my car. I have enough of
that in other devices. Give me a convenient place on the dashboard to attach a
phone holder, and provide a nearby USB power port, and I'd be super happy.
Focus on making the climate controls work great, and have great Bluetooth, and
I'm all set.

~~~
judge2020
Note that backup cameras are now a mandate:

> the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration announced that it
> would require all automobiles sold in the United States built beginning in
> May 2018 to include backup cameras

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backup_camera#Mandates](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backup_camera#Mandates)

------
jrochkind1
I feel like we have passed the peak of technology working well. Now my life is
full of devices I can't actually get to do what I want or figure out how to
use, and every year it gets worse. Crappy TV, crappy car computer, can't seem
to manage to get my calendars to sync on all my devices so I'm never really
sure if I'm looking at all my events (and let's not talk about trying to get
facebook calendars on there), afraid to try upgrading the OS on my Mac laptop
cause who knows what the hell it will do...

or wait, is this just what getting old is like? Do the kids these days think
everything works great?

I feel like I'm not in control of most of the technology in my life, and most
of it is unreliable and unpredictable and has terrible UX.

~~~
cactus2093
Eh, not true in my experience. Especially not the getting worse every year
part. Things mostly still get better over time - now you can get CarPlay
instead of the shitty builtin infotainment systems, and even those get more
usable. Smart TVs work a lot better than they used to.

What I’ve noticed is there are still industries that don’t use a lot of
computers yet and every once in a while the entire industry all at once
decides “we need to force computers on everyone now”. And they do this way
ahead of putting any thought into user experience so it usually sucks and you
end up dealing with new sources of shitty computer interfaces sometimes I.e.
smart TVs. But they do generally seem to get gradually better from there.

------
ChuckMcM
I really resonate with this. It feels like everyone in the "value chain"
between you and your product is trying to interpose some software based
monthly recurring revenue stream to boost their margins.

The recent story about how Cisco routers would 'phone home' to see if your
license for the software was still current and not operate if it wasn't struck
me as another absurd example of how lame this can be.

What always astonishes me is that a company like BMW which makes an excellent
car can convince itself that it can maintain and operate a software service
infrastructure. Just get a few web designers and some coders to whip up an
app. Reality is complicated, and what others make look "easy" (Amazon, Google,
Azure) has a lot of layers you can't easily "outsource."

Even back in the 90's Sun was fretting over the fact that if you just bought
one copy of Solaris with your computer and never upgraded, all those engineers
sitting around would just consume cash waiting to do something. Free software
has whacked the software business model even further afield.

------
Lendal
I have a 2017 BMW X3 with every option. The Bluetooth integration is terrible.
It did force me to move my music service to Spotify (which is the only music
service BMW supports.) Turns out Spotify is awesome, but BMW's integration of
it is awful. Sometimes I travel in complete silence in protest of my BMW's
Bluetooth flakiness.

I continue to use it because Sirius XM horrific sound quality is always there,
whereas Bluetooth occasional does what it's supposed to.

The BMW Connected app provides more frustration than value. I use it on
occasion, when I've forgotten about how terrible it is.

I loathe voice control systems of all kinds, doesn't matter how good they are.
I hate both talking to computers and listening to computers "talk". The first
thing I do when I get in a new car is turn off the voice.

You can get map updates much cheaper from people hanging out in BMW user
Internet forums who sell them for $50. If you're a computer person and can
follow instructions you can save a lot of money on map updates.

~~~
DenisM
So long as your car has an AUX port a $10 Bluetooth->AUX dongle will solve
your problems - you can bypass the OEM bluetooth completely.

It works wonders for me (similar model to B018WV3F50 on Amazon).

~~~
taurath
Why not just hook up directly to aux then?

~~~
DenisM
My phone is in my pocket most of the time, I just press play in the dongle to
resume music I played at home. Even when it’s hanging on a hook on the
dashboard I don’t want to fuss with the wires.

------
torgian
I honestly don't even see the need for screens in a car. I'm perfectly happy
with having physical buttons/dials to control my music and AC. I don't need to
know anything else other than what's on the dashboard. (speed, rpm, fuel, etc
for those who are wondering)

It just seems like a huge waste of time, effort, and money for something that
a smartphone can do, all while introducing a mandatory version of a
potentially fatal distraction. And it looks shitty and operates pretty
terribly.

Maybe this will make more sense if/when cars become fully automated, but it
should have no place in a vehicle today, when your attention should be on the
road.

~~~
nullwarp
This so much for me. My truck has all knobs and buttons, it's extremely easy
to adjust anything. No screen but a simple one in the middle (the 8 Matrix
screens or whatever they're called)

Meanwhile my wife's car has a full infotainment system and I have to stare at
it to figure out what buttons to hit next and it drives me nuts.

That said I'm also partial to removing all screens outside of some kind of
GPS. People already don't respect driving their 2-3 ton machine at 100+ feet
per second, stop giving them even more reasons to not pay attention to the
road.

~~~
falcolas
> 2-3 ton machine at 100+ feet per second

Most dump trucks don't have infotainment modules. Some are lucky to even have
seats.

~~~
whenchamenia
Show me a dump truck without seats.

~~~
phyllostachys
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LywkIfAA1M](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LywkIfAA1M)

------
MBCook
I was just thinking about this in relation to CarPlay last night. I’m so happy
to have an interface that 1) isn’t garbage and 2) actually improves throughout
the life of my car.

I also know that whatever car I go to, no matter how crappy the entertainment
system is I get to use CarPlay and don’t have to worry about the OEM garbage.
Slow? Ugly? Confusing? Who cares!

I’ve outsourced the entertainment system to a software company with a clue,
and I couldn’t be happier.

My maps are real-time updated by Apple. I can listen to whatever new streaming
app comes out next year and takes over the market. I have Siri for voice
commands, not the awful thing built into my car.

Sorry car makers, you screwed up for too long. Now everyone just wants to
bypass you with CarPlay (or Android Auto).

~~~
PrettyPastry
Unless they start doing the same thing the article describes, charging a
subscription for CarPlay.

They literally added extra systems to disable it so they could charge rents.

~~~
persistent
And the system sucks and is unreliable, so people who pay the rent are
regularly told they aren't entitled to use CarPlay.

------
Maro
I have a similar BMW.

In my opinion, the sane way to approach cars is to accept that it's an
excellent mechanical machine with shit software. Even if they were to do an
awesome job, which they won't, over the years the software/screen will get
outdated.

The solution is to minimize the software use, and enjoy the car as a
mechanical machine, eg. buy the torque-y 30d not the 20d. Eg. I know the map
is shit, so I just don't think about it, I have a $2 thing and I mount my
phone and that's it. My phone will always have a nicer screen, better
software, better 4G, it will always be configured better for me (I get a new
phone every year).

On the car, I just use the radio, the bluetooth for Spotify (sometimes it
doesn't work), and that's it. Things like "CarPlay" or whatever, voice
commands, it's better not to think about it and just enjoy the ride.

The only tech upgrade I'd take on a new car is the surround camera because I'm
a shitty parker, but that's it.

~~~
bradlys
Unfortunately - I think what you're seeing here is that people here
(especially in this article, on HN, and in general) are not focused on the
"driving experience" but more of the "commuting experience". People are not
using these vehicles to /drive/ but to /commute/ or just get to a destination.
They're no more engaged in driving than they are in flying when on an
airplane.

I think the audience for these things are people stuck in bad commutes or long
boring trips where they are unengaged from driving.

~~~
mikl
Very true. My daily commute is 90% autobahn, and not the exciting unlimited
speed autobahn, but just regular four lane highways with several speed traps
on the way. So get on the road, engage cruise control and keep your lane, not
much else.

Having something to listen to actually improves my concentration, prevents my
brain zoning out and becoming really inattentive from boredom ;)

------
notJim
> I used to love that car. It’s the first nice car I’ve owned (in Denmark,
> there was a 225% tax (VAT included) on cars last I bought one, so most
> people get the smallest, crappiest car that can work for their needs).

Is this right? Apparently the base price for this car is around $60,000, so
this person paid $195,000 ($60,000 + 2.25 * $60,000) for this car?

~~~
compsciphd
i can speak to Israel. Base price on cars is more expensive, then you
basically pay 100% tax on the base price of the car.

It makes cars a small fortune compared to the US. When I tell Israeli
coworkers that I paid about $6K for a 3 year lease of my chevy volt (after
state / utility company rebates), their mouths drop. That's basically free to
them.

Also in Israel it used to be common that a benefit you got from your company
was a car (because it wasn't taxed as income). It could be similar in other
european countries? which hides the cost of the car from many of the
consumers. Now, Israel taxes cars basically like income so its not as common a
benefit you see anymore (employees would rather have cash than a car). The
only reason to get a car as a benefit if for some reason the company can get
the car cheaper than you could have gotten it yourself.

~~~
mikl
The "get a car from the job" used to be a common trick in Denmark years ago,
but they changed the rules to you get taxed heavily for it, so it there’s not
much to gain that way.

~~~
notJim
I think this was a thing in the US too back when taxes were higher, but of
course we went the opposite direction ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

------
DevKoala
I was just talking to a friend about this. My main reason for not jumping on a
Tesla is the lack of CarPlay. I would love it if automakers stuck to providing
a great automobile platform and just implemented a standard computer interface
for all devices to hook up. I don’t know when I will get a new car, but
ditching CarPlay is not an option.

~~~
windsurfer
Are you aware that you can retrofit cars to support carplay and android auto?

~~~
omarqureshi
You can, however there's three problems.

Firstly from an aesthetic point of view they're hideous, you'll end up having
to buy a plastic piece of crap to hold it in and aftermarket stereos are just
not great, it won't be flush to the rest of the dash.

Secondly depending on your car a bunch of stuff that used to work with your
car (forward/reverse sensors) might not show up any more.

Thirdly stalk adaptors costs a fortune.

You really want a car that has got that experience sorted and after driving a
modern VW, I'd say a VW or Audi is probably the way to go. They'll have
Carplay/Auto/Mirror and that's what you want. The experience of an aftermarket
stereo is just not great.

------
jbtule
I replaced the radio in my 2016 Toyota Prius V because the software was sooo
bad. It was the only model in 2016 that didn't support hands free Siri, They
pushed out a final update to etune 2.0 removing features as it moved into
maintenance mode, and it crashed and rebooted on hands free calls.

I bought my new radio from crutchfield.com, they did all the compatibility
checking for me, suggested all the additional adapters and devices for best
compatibility, and for $25 spliced all the wiring harnesses for me. I
installed it myself, and have been very happy with the results. I now have
wireless carplay, so handsfree works great, I can easily get directions/eta
while driving, I can easily listen to podcasts, and as a bonus I get visual
information on various car sensors, like which door is ajar, and the PSI of
each tire. The most important feature is that it hasn't crashed once.

The result has been better than I expected, there were somethings that weren't
quite obvious, such as there not existing OEM adapters for the hands free mic
and the gps receiver for my model of toyota. But ultimately, it wasn't hard to
run the new mic and the new gps sensor that came with the radio out through
the seams of the dash. The handsfree audio quality is way better with the new
radio's mic. Everything else integrated with the OEM hardware of the car.

~~~
gegtik
Interesting, I hate the entune system on my 2015 Prius V. I was afraid
something aftermarket wouldn't be able to pull things like the gas mileage,
hook into the backup cam, etc. Is there a model of replacement I should be
looking into?

------
smacktoward
_> The built-in GPS is next to useless, since the maps are from 2015. In
theory, I could purchase a map update from BMW, which I’ve tried several
times. But the site (BMW ConnectedDrive) that sells map upgrade is a mess. All
the times I’ve tried, I’ve run in to one error or another. That site is all
around awful. Completely indecipherable error messages, shoddy layout and
design work, you name it._

I'm feeling this one. I drive a 2015 Subaru. Overall it's a great car, but the
infotainment system is just _dire_ , slow and clunky and painful to use.

Of course the maps in the built-in GPS are pretty out of date by now, too. And
you can download new maps from a Subaru web site, but only if you're willing
to shell out $200 (!) for the update -- which is just enough money to make me
feel like I should put it towards a completely new head unit instead, which
would solve a bunch of problems (including the maps) at once. But then
aftermarket GPS head units that also support CarPlay/Android Auto cost $700
and up, so...

Sigh.

~~~
ollien
I have a 2018 Subaru. It's still terrible. The built in infotainment system
basically serves as an Android Auto launcher for me. The dumbest feature is
that it insists on turning the radio on every single time I start the car,
even if I've pressed in the volume button to mute it.

------
vgoh1
I bought a 90's car a few months ago - low mileage dependable Japanese car,
nearly bare bones except for air conditioning and airbags (which were both
optional equipment). In average condition, they go about $2k, mine was
immaculate, so it was $6k. Truly like driving a brand new car from the mid
90's.

If you are sick of the electronics, just get a "new" old car. You won't regret
it. You can even easily replace the tape deck with a high quality head unit to
get all the features you need, but done right because car audio companies are
just better at doing infotainment type stuff, and you can get something
unobtrusive.

Everything that I thought I would miss, or have a hard time adjusting to be
without, ABS, power windows, power locks, traction control, remote start,
etc., turns out, I didn't really need it. Yes, there is the safety aspect of
it, but I guess that depends on what kind of a drive you are, and what type of
area that you live in.

~~~
closetohome
When I got my 2001 Xterra it had one of those hideous neon double-din
monstrosities of an aftermarket stereo in it. I ripped the entire thing out
and replaced it with a cheap amp and bluetooth receiver. Now it's just a blank
panel with some USB ports for charging. And judging by the reports in this
thread, it's more reliable than a BMW system.

------
lqet
Honest question: are there new cars on the market today where I, as a driver,
do not have to directly interact with any piece of software? In other words,
are there still cars around that solve problems mechanically?

A close family member took a job at a location that was too far away for
public transportation and bought a Kia Picanto [0] in 2004. I regularly drove
that car until 3 years ago, and it was an overall pleasant experience. The car
only had mechanical buttons and switches inside, no screens at all (only a LCD
for clock and mileage, and the radio display). The clutch pedal was connected
to the clutch via a bowden cable (I know that because it snapped one time
while I was driving). The gas pedal was also connected directly to the motor.
It had 3 rotating switches for the AC and the heating, a button for the
emergency light, and a button for the back window heating. It was an honest
car.

I want a car _I_ can control, not a semi-autonomous home entertainment system
that tries to mask its mechanical shortcomings with cheap software.

[0]
[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/Ki...](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/Kia_Picanto_in_north_London_%28cropped%29.jpg/1280px-
Kia_Picanto_in_north_London_%28cropped%29.jpg)

~~~
cr0sh
I own a pre-JK Jeep Wrangler (2004 TJ) - it was probably among the last of
vehicles made in this century (for the United States, and probably most of
Europe) that match what you're wanting.

Everything is pretty much mechanical on mine; in fact, I think the AC controls
are still old-school resistor speed control, bowden cable vent control, and
vacuum-assist function control. If you look at the electrical diagram in a
Haynes for it, you can see that there isn't much "there" \- it's still mostly
"switch connected to relay, relay connected to accessory" \- everything isn't
routed thru a computer or such.

My TJ has plenty of downsides that probably don't affect later versions of the
vehicle - high gas mileage being the greatest; spartan interior (there's a
label inside the vehicle that says "The body of this vehicle isn't designed to
protect occupants in the event of an accident, but is only for protection from
the elements"!) - though easy to clean (remove drain plugs, hose it out), so
much road noise you have to yell to be heard at speed (again - due to the
spartan interior), and a rough and somewhat unstable driving experience (part
of that is due to my lift and larger than stock tires, tho).

Unfortunately, due to a number of reasons, it's not only an anomaly - but most
vehicles sold in first world markets just aren't built that way any longer.
Safety concerns (airbags everywhere!) have mandated for larger vehicles, which
meant more dash to stick stuff on and in (otherwise, it'd look odd), CAFE
rules (here in the USA), etc. Also emissions and fuel economy mean much more
computer control, and more "drive by wire" and for some reason manufacturers
decided that all has to be routed thru the entertainment console too.

Outside of the first-world developed economies, though, you'll find those cars
you want. But you likely as not can't import them, or if you can, they can't
be driven or licensed for public roads. Many won't pass US or EU crash test
safety standards, if that matters to you. These cars are mainly built and for
the markets in India and China - as well as marketed to African nations (I
don't know of any "domestic" African nation made commercially available
vehicles - there may be some foreign manufacturers though).

One vehicle I wish I could purchase and drive here in the USA - but likely
never will (it likely couldn't be licensed for public roads, but even if it
could, it probably isn't something you can purchase in single quantities - at
least easily) is the OX:

[http://oxgvt.com/](http://oxgvt.com/)

Great off-road handling (for a FWD-only vehicle), diesel engine, build-it-
yourself from flatpack, easily fixable, central driver position, extreme
hauling capacity - it's like everything I'd want in a vehicle, but sadly I
can't own one. Downside is (likely) no AC system - but I could probably hack
something in.

I figure that if I ever want a vehicle like that, I'm going to have to build
one myself on a small pickup chassis or something.

------
bhauer
There's a flagged & dead comment in this thread that argues (in four snarky
words) that a Tesla would be a better choice for a software-oriented car.

Snark aside, it's a fair point. If software quality is important, of all
current manufacturers, Tesla seems the best fit since their product is as much
software as it is car.

~~~
supergeek
My biggest gripe with Tesla is their lack of carplay and android auto.

They offer their own navigation software to automatically plan charging stops
on long trips, but for most trips I just want Waze and their excellent traffic
aware routing and speed trap notices.

~~~
Lendal
I've used both and I'm sorry but CarPlay is far inferior to Tesla's UI.

In addition, Tesla's screen is the only interface to the car's critical
functions. They're not gonna hand it over to CarPlay unless they were to
provide a separate screen for the purpose.

~~~
mrpippy
They could put CarPlay on just part of the screen (this is what Volvo does)

------
userbinator
Whenever the topic of software and cars comes up, since I work in the software
industry (with a bit of hardware on the side) it's funny to see that almost
everyone I've met thinks I drive something "really high-tech" (I've actually
been asked several times if I have a Tesla) but they're all very shocked when
they find out what my daily driver is: an early-70s "land-yacht" with no
software and minimal electronics, but an upgraded powertrain.

I'm really not a fan of the newer cars with tons of complexity and horrible UX
(e.g. touchscreens replacing physical controls.) It could be a bit of a
"knowing how the sausage is made" effect too, but I also happen to know quite
a few software engineers who are into classic cars as well.

------
yitchelle
Hang on. When I saw the headline, I assumed that he was referring to the
software "in" the car. Ie, the software controlling the Engine, or the ABS, or
Transmission, or the in-cabin lights, or headlines, seat controllers, or ... I
could go on.

He is complaining about the software in his central console that he interacts
with each day. It is only a portion of all the software used in the car.

I guess the big lesson learn here is nothing drives a customer satisfaction
other what they directly interacts with.

~~~
mikl
I only gave it a passing mention, but the software that drives the car itself
(not just the central console) had some serious security vulnerabilities last
year: [https://www.zdnet.com/article/over-a-dozen-
vulnerabilities-u...](https://www.zdnet.com/article/over-a-dozen-
vulnerabilities-uncovered-in-bmw-vehicles/)

But in general, the car companies take a little more care with those life-
critical systems, for liability reasons, if nothing else.

------
diziet
When I read the comments of how people are happy with their 2003 model car X,
or they drive an old but great manual 1997 model car Y, I get really confused.
Safety systems in cars continue to improve, from more and better airbags, to
crumple zones, automatic collision braking, pedestrian detection braking,
intelligent headlights that don't blind oncoming traffic, seatbelts that pre-
tension, better traction control, better brakes, blind spot monitoring, backup
cameras, etc. A 2020 model car will have more of these features than an older
car. It is more likely to keep you and others safe, including pedestrians
safe. MPG keeps getting better -- the newer cars are generally nicer overall.

~~~
whalesalad
I'm not sure why you are confused. Do you expect people to jump out and just
buy a new car every single year? Some people do this, by way of leasing. They
upgrade all the time. For others, buying a car is a substantial investment and
not necessarily something you want to (or are even capable of) jumping out of
just for new safety technology.

Also newer does not mean better. I have an old 2000 Jeep Cherokee that will
probably last an eternity with its stout 4.0L engine. It's currently got 253k
miles and is one of the most comfortable and enjoyable cars I have ever
driven. I also have a modern 2016 Ford Mustang. I can appreciate both vehicles
for what they are, but I wouldn't say one is better than the other purely
based on age. In fact, the older one is easier to maintain and parts are far
cheaper.

~~~
chrismatheson
I think the safety features are the big thing. Most 2 year old cars now come
with active braking and a slew of other safety features. And / year old cars
are already massively cheaper than brand new. Keep buying and selling within
the 2-5 year zone and you can have the best safety tech for a fraction of the
new / lease price

~~~
dwd
I have children learning to drive. Much happier for them to be in the wife's
2018 model with active breaking, lane keeping, blindspot alerts and headlights
that are 3x more effective than my 2008 car.

------
avar
Am I the only one who wants less integration with normal phone functions while
driving, not more?

I use my Android phone with a mount and Google Maps for navigation, but it's a
pretty horrible and distracting experience.

Even though you're actively in driving mode you'll get all sorts of
notifications / message popups you'd normally want, but I _don 't_ want them
while driving.

There needs to be some OS-level quieting of everything except the navigation
and phone calls, you can't put the phone in airplane mode because you'd like
real-time traffic updates.

The least crappy way I've found of dealing with this is using an old android
phone without a SIM card and nothing on it except Google Maps, then teather it
to the main phone (with SIM) for network, put the main phone on silent and
throw it in the glove compartment. But that also sucks since I'd still like
music, podcasts & audio books. So now I need to sync those too to that phone,
and it leaves out using the phone (as in, talking to people via voice) through
the car speakers.

~~~
savrajsingh
iOS has “do not disturb while driving” mode for this scenario

~~~
drdaeman
Except that when the phone is unlocked (for e.g. maps) notifications still
flicker as they happen, sometimes obstructing the top where Google Maps puts
the street name and lane information.

~~~
avar
...and I don't know about iOS, but I've had this happen at the very worst of
times on Android. I've need to click on a dialog in Google Maps to accept a
route change, and just then a pop-over dialog appeared that I accidentally
clicked. Now the routing is backgrounded and you have some other app open.

------
Isamu
>CarPlay will be non-negotiable. I don’t want to have a separate computer
system to manage in my car. I want to use the insanely powerful pocket
computer I always have with me with my car’s audio system and display.

I agree, but even CarPlay is not flawless. And when something weird happens,
it's hard to decide if the flaw is on the phone side or on the car side, since
it's not clear how much is the responsibility of the car display.

But there are enough weird glitches when the phone is not plugged in at all.

~~~
jakobegger
Carplay has been a pretty buggy experience for me as well (in a Citroen). I'm
not sure how much it's the fault of the car or the phone.

\- sometimes nothing happens when I plug in the phone

\- navigation instructions are sometimes barely audible even though the music
is loud

\- Siri sometimes gets stuck

It's nice when it works, but it still feels a lot like a beta.

Siri voice recognition is really bad. The car's built in voice navigation is
much better (eg. the car will offer the top 3 choices when it's not sure, and
I can just say "2" when number two is correct. Siri on the other hand will
almost always try to send me to places hundreds of kilometers away....

~~~
judge2020
Those are most likely all integration issues.

\- the car can choose to always open carplay when the phone is plugged in, or
it could use other signals to "intelligently" decide if it should open
carplay. You can try seeing if it pops up depending on what state the UI is in
(are you in a menu?), the time since you last interacted with the display, or
whether or not the car is moving.

\- likely an issue with attenuation on the car's side (if you're listening to
music via the car; if music and navigation is through carplay that's an issue)

\- car might be doing something to activate or pass through the microphone to
the phone

------
matty22
I just bought a new vehicle a few months back and my number 1 requirement was
that it _be a vehicle_ and not a computer on wheels. I have no power windows,
no power locks, no backup camera, no lane assist, or any of that junk. The
most advanced piece of electronics on the dash is a CD player and an aux in.

It is shocking how much more attention I pay to what I'm doing and even how
much more I _enjoy_ driving when I don't have to futz about with a bunch of
annoying technology.

I have no plans to ever purchase a car with a built in operating
system/screen. The benefits don't outweigh being annoyed by your own car.

------
jimmaswell
All I need is a dashboard phone mount and an FM transmitter, preferably
transmitting to a radio with physical controls. Touch screen systems in cars
have always been terrible every time I've used one and bluetooth is always a
nightmare in general. I value being able to physically control what goes where
with aux cables instead of the car suddenly blaring a youtube video because
the bluetooth synced itself mid-drive or something else typical of bluetooth
systems. Good thing 90s cars with good physical radios are cheap, plentiful,
and reliable.

~~~
boring_twenties
FM transmitter, seriously? Those sound like absolute shit, aux cable is a
thousand times better.

~~~
jimmaswell
They're usually fine for me, but a radio with a real aux input would be less
hacky.

------
patrickpkt
I have a 2014 BMW i3, and while I don't have the problems you do, Mikkel, I
have missed Carplay now that I've used it. I've been tempted by
[https://unique-ad.co.uk/product-category/bmw-carplay-kits/](https://unique-
ad.co.uk/product-category/bmw-carplay-kits/), which seems like it would
address all your issues, assuming the kit lives up to its promise.

~~~
mikl
Hmm, that does look promising, might be worth investigating.

------
dreamcompiler
Software in cars (with the possible exception of Tesla's) has always been
terrible compared to that of smartphones. BMW has long had the reputation of
worst-of-the-worst in this regard.

Which is why I insist my phone have a 1/8" jack as well as my car: It's the
only reliable way of connecting the two. Bluetooth never works and USB always
wants to download my contacts when all I want is for my music to play.

------
ivanhoe
Can't agree more, CarPlay is IMHO the only "smart" functionality that actually
makes sense to use with my car. Their native infotainment system feels more
like "everyone else has it, let's put something together quick", than a
serious software project. And especially stupid is that, because they sell
multiple packages of equipment, there are overlapping functionalities. For
instance I have a clock on main board and on the touch screen, and they're not
in sync as those are 2 completely separate systems. There are also two
temperatures (at least they usually match). Infotainment system has no access
to car performance params, I have to use weird stick behind the wheel to, for
instance, check the tire pressure, although that's a type of info that's much
more appropriate for touch screen than the half of the features they've put
there... literally zero thought was given on how to create integrated and
pleasurable UX, it's just a number of pluggable modules, to make it easier to
sell...

------
mrb
Oh boy, I can relate. In fact, I would go as far as saying that many modern
cars (sedans) are so close in terms of mechanical reliability, safety
features, etc, that the differentiating features that determine which car I
buy end up being mostly the car software behind all the dashboard features
that I use every single day: Android Auto, Bluetooth connectivity, precision
of the touchscreen (if any), lag, etc.

Manufacturers take note:

If your shitty infotainment system takes more than 3 seconds to show the video
feed after engaging the reverse gear, I won't buy your car.

If your shitty system doesn't let the _passenger_ change radio stations when
Android Auto is in use (because the physical button for the radio channel is
repurposed to zoom in/out in Maps in Android Auto _cough_ Chrysler _cough_ ),
I won't buy your car.

If your shitty HomeLink buttons are non-responsive the first few seconds after
the engine is started (because your firmware is bloated and takes seconds to
boot what could be done in milliseconds), I won't buy your car.

~~~
sircastor
I work in infotainment for a manufacturer. We're required to bring up the
camera in less than 2 seconds from cold start. I'm can't recall right now if
that was a legal requirement our internal one.

------
dpedu
I've been thinking about this problem recently. I drive a 2010 and can handily
afford a new vehicle, so I've been somewhat attuned to the good and bad
features of new vehicles. 10 years is a _long_ time in the auto industry,
especially when it comes to cars and their interior tech. Having watched my
friends with newer cars struggle to get them to work properly has really put
me off shopping for a new one, since these systems generally aren't optional
anymore - there's no longer a 'base model' with a plain stereo and dash items.

Anyway, because of this I've been keeping my eyes out for cars that are still
in new production today, but are using an old design. These are, in my
opinion, better because their systems date from before a time where problems
like those mentioned in the OP didn't exist, yet the car is brand new. There's
not many out there, any it seems limited to low volume - read: pricey -
models. One example is the Nissan 370z.

------
geophile
I have similar but slightly different issues with my 2018 3-series BMW. For
most things, I think the BMW apps are actually better than what you get from
CarPlay. For example, the BMW GPS makes better use of screen real estate. (On
the other hand, Apple seems to do a better job of accounting for traffic in
route planning.)

The one puzzling omission from the BMW software is support for podcasts. For
that, CarPlay is the only usable solution.

One major irritant is connecting and disconnecting. This is especially bad
when there are multiple iPhones in the car. (I know, what are the odds,
amirite?) I had my iPhone plugged in via USB, and playing music. My wife was
using her iPhone, which the car decided to connect to CarPlay. And certain
actions on her phone somehow confused the iDrive system to stop playing music
and bring up her iPhone on the display.

I wish that car manufacturers would either get it right, or turn the whole
thing over to Apple. These intermediate solutions just suck.

~~~
prepend
I have a 2018 3 as well. CarPlay is ok, but the maps only uses 2/3 of the
screen. However it was a cool feature of “send to bmw nav.”

I had the odd multi phone behavior so I bought a “usb condom” that blocks data
and only allows power. I keep this plugged in for charging and pair only with
wifi/Bluetooth.

This stops for me the fighting of multiple phones taking over

------
threefour
I wrote a case study of BMW's iDrive a few years ago, apparently it's still
relevant [https://www.fastcompany.com/1665496/when-rebooting-a-
project...](https://www.fastcompany.com/1665496/when-rebooting-a-project-
throw-out-the-bathwater-but-keep-the-baby)

------
billforsternz
Apropos of not much I was just driving to an unfamiliar location and using the
car Satnav. I was reminded why I actively avoid it. The text to speech mangles
almost every street name, even completely commonplace English language names.
"Gracefield" became Gra - ss - fie - lid or something. I implemented the
simple Bethesda Naval Laboratory text to phoneme algorithm in the early 1980s
based on a Steve Ciarcia article in Byte magazine and I'm _sure_ it was
better. Also I hear the OP on the subject of updates. I bought this car new
less than 4 years ago, the Satnav regularly scolds me at ignition time to do
an update - the dealer looked at me as if I was crazy "No we can't do updates
- you should try and figure out how to do it yourself".

------
allenrb
My dad recently ditched his Audi Q7. Not for exactly the same reasons but
because of endless electronic glitches and downright bizarre behavior. Now
he’s got an EcoBoost F150 and loves it.

Consumer-grade hardware & software is a wonderful demonstration of why
aerospace and medical systems cost what they do.

~~~
xendipity
> Consumer-grade hardware & software is a wonderful demonstration of why
> aerospace and medical systems cost what they do.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by this?

~~~
boring_twenties
They're not allowed to unpredictably and inexplicably fail like consumer
stuff, but they're also orders of magnitude more expensive.

~~~
saltcured
Even with that cost, you usually have to get device-specific training and
sometimes certification to operate them. They also often have rigid operating
procedures you are required to follow, with deviations possibly leading to
fail-safe modes, audit, and/or recertification...

------
1ris
Recently I had a almost brand new Honda Civic rental car and a brand new
Android phone.

When I wanted to charge my phone on the usb-port, I was ask if i wanted to
activate android auto. I said yes. The phone said I had to engage the paring
break to continue. The parking break was engaged. I never got beyond that.

I suspect none of parties involved (Honda, Google, Nokia) ever tested even the
most basic setup.

(Yes, i tried again, multiple times, engaging and disengaing the parking
break, the break, turning both devices on and of again, to put the car into
neutral), but gave up after about 10 Minutes.

I used google maps with bluetooth audio. But actually, I use want a dash-board
mount for my phone. Or maybe, just maybe a monitor in my dash board that
connects to my phone. But i highly doubt car makes wont screw that up.

------
fps
Ran into this issue way back in 2005 when I bought my first modern-ish car
(Subaru Legacy.) I'd always just replaced the radio with something decent and
modern every few years in previous cars, but in this one the audio system was
integrated into the HVAC controls and you couldn't replace it. So, no adding
aux input jacks, nothing. I sold that car after 2 years and bought a car that
had a standard double din head unit.

I have a JVC head unit in my car now that does car play/android auto, exterior
cameras, etc. I will never buy another car without an upgradable stereo. This
usually means I'm shopping on the lower end of the market, but that's worth it
to not be stuck with auto manufacturer's software.

------
lazyguy
After market car stereo.

Never driven in a rental or borrowed car that had bluetooth that worked worth
a damn.

So I bought the cheapest car I could possibly fine, got the the most bottom
base model that I could get. Then put in a Sony Stereo headset and separate
amplifier that was small enough to fit into the glove compartment. Added a
little 12 inch subwoofer to the rear hatch and upgraded the door speakers.

I don't need a loud stereo. I just need one that was decent and wasn't a piece
of shit. Spent about 400 dollars and got something that is a lot easier to use
and more reliable then what you'd get out of of a 100,000 dollar car.

------
deckar01
I had to hack Hyundai's website to keep my navigation and monitoring service.
I bought it used 3 years old in 2016. At that point they had already removed
the ability to purchase updated maps. Then this year I got an email saying the
navigation and monitoring services would be unavailable for renewal. The renew
UI was disabled, but I reverse engineered their API, crafted a request, and
got a system error. To my surprise my subscription was renewed. There is no
reason I can think of to discontinue these services other than to goad me into
purchasing a new car.

------
disiplus
> the double-clutch transmission is smooth

that car does not have a DCT

------
olyjohn
Apple Car Play and Android Auto are just going to be this exact same thing
repeated. Once you have your CarPlay 1.0 car, the new FancyPhone 11 will come
out and only support cars with CarPlay 2.0. Then you're right back where you
started!

This whole thing is dumb as hell. How about a standard like USB-C where you
can pass thru keyboards, pointing devices and alt-mode video with one cable?
It's a somewhat open standard, and would work with a number of phones RIGHT
NOW with no stupid software tricks. Plus it charges your phone at the same
time!! Like magic!!

~~~
neogodless
No thank you.

Two counter-examples. While my 2015 Mazda does not officially support Android
Auto, clever open-source programmers came up with a way to install it. I did
that this spring. When Google updated Android Auto in the Play Store, the
update came through without having to make any updates to the car.

And, more interesting to me, the integration is, in my opinion, super sweet.
When I'm using Google Maps, arrows are put up on my heads-up display. All the
steering wheel audio controls work. The physical NAV and MUSIC buttons take me
right to the correct tab in Android Auto, and the back button does what I
expect it to.

------
anewguy9000
"i don't know what I'll replace it with" sums it up.

~~~
brassattax
I got to try out MySync/Android Auto in a Ford Everest. I like it, and it
worked great most of the time, except every once in a while randomly it would
crash and bring you to the entertainment system's home screen, and the only
way to get it to relaunch was by unplugging USB and plugging it back in. Also
one time, the audio would not switch over to Android Auto, so even though it
was connected and the UI worked, the radio was coming through. This persisted
until the next time I used the vehicle (there was no way to just "reboot" the
entertainment system)

I have not yet driven a vehicle where Bluetooth or USB to a phone works
flawlessly.

~~~
anewguy9000
at least we didn't ditch our audio jacks until the technology matured. oh wait

------
stef25
Was waiting for an article like this to appear. I have an X1 and integration
with iPhone is a disaster.

The Audible app on the iPhone will popup a warning that consists of the BMW
logo taking up 80% of the screen with a small text warning at the bottom
saying "don't use this while driving" and a small "x" hidden somewhere to
close the warning. It's beyond ridiculous.

What gets me most is the Audm app on the iPhone. Whenever I get back in the
car after using it, it will cause the car to start playing the same song from
my Apple Music library. Always the same song, but randomly picked as far as I
can tell (it's not the last one I listened to nor or the first one
alphabetically). It's like an alarm clock - you end up hating the song because
it comes on every single time you start the car. When I delete the song from
my library it will just pick another one. When I stop using Audm, this
annoyance stops. No idea what the logic behind this behavior is.

The BMW connect app is currently stuck in a loop where it says it's "doing
something", even after having restarted my phone. So it's currently unusable,
guess I should reinstall it. This is an 80EUR app which I got so I can remote
lock the car cause I always forget and people have helped themselves to stuff
in my car so many times. The X1 doesn't lock itself when I walk away, unlike
the 116D did.

GPS - garbage interface compared to Waze which I can't stop using despite my
aversion to being tracked.

Great car, but many software annoyances.

~~~
prepend
> The BMW connect app is currently stuck in a loop where it says it's "doing
> something"

Cute error messages really frustrate me when they get stuck or display
frequently. They just remind me how much I want an error message that gives me
something to work with. This seems like the lazy implementation equivalent of
“commit” as your commit message.

------
beilabs
Being in Nepal I made the plunge earlier this year to buy a vehicle even with
the extra 250% import tax the government places on them.

Imported from India, no GPS working, no maps. The entertainment system is a
piece of shit! Bluetooth works fine but Ford India crippled the entire system.

That said, I've realized that touch screen systems have no place in any
vehicle. Too damn distracting requiring you to take your eyes off of the road,
incredibly risky when driving around Kathmandu.

------
atoav
I more and more grew to love simple solutions that _just work_ , and do so in
a predictable way — and lets face it: stuff fails, so having it fail in a
predictable way is good too.

Cables might sound oldfashioned but they tick these boxes for me. Just buy
them in packs and throw broken ones out or repair them. If you get decent ones
even that will be rare.

Mechanical rotary switches to switch between multiple modes? Hell yeah. Actual
potentiometers that end when you are at max for values that make sense? Sure
way.

Since the eighties a lot of specialized interfaces that should have been
condensed down to perfection were instead defaced by membrane buttons and a
single push encoder that is meant to do all the things. Nothing against
encoders, they are cool for certain stuff — but even cooler is a fixed
interface where everything is literally in your hands.

That is why touch interfaces are even worse: ever tried to use one with your
eyes closed?

The thing is: good working solutions and well defined haptic interfaces pair
incredible well with sturdy and wellwritten code. Electromechanical parts are
just more expensive, and that is why they fell out of favour.

On the other hand we literally live in times where anybody could build their
own car radio if they just wanted..

------
eugmill
My best car "feature" was a rental I had that when connected to bluetooth and
driving, would auto-reply to SMS messages with "I'm driving and can't talk
right now".

At the time I had facebook notifications send me sms messages, and if you
reply, it would post the reply to facebook.

I had left a bunch of "I'm driving and can't talk right now" comments on
random posts without realizing it until days later.

------
dredmorbius
I have experience with a fully-analogue auto, with a radio and CD player, and
a newer model with an in-dash display, "programmable" cabin climate controls,
and Bluetooth connections.

Being able to pair my Android tablet for listening to podcasts is neat. But an
FM broadcast dongle had solved that problem for the earlier vehicle, as would
an AUX IN port, though it lacks that.

The earlier car had come with a pricey GPS option. My reasoning in rejecting
that was that the hardware and software were likely obsolete on installation
and would get no fresher. That's proved accurate, and a year later, I had my
first experience of a long road trip with the Internet in my pocket. Pre-
iPhone era, having maps and Google search was a game-changer, though could be
distracting. An assessment I've maintained to the present.

I still rely largely on my own navigation capabilities and mapreading skills.
Paper rarely crashes, reboots, or experiences flat batteries.

I read stories such as these with mild bemusement, until the thought registers
that I'll likely be unable to find another vehicle as suited to actual
transport as the one I own presently.

Pity, that.

------
rcurry
My favorite is the voice recognition system in my Toyota 4Runner. It seems
there are no lengths it won’t go to to keep from just calling the person I
want to speak with:

Me: “Call Bob Smith.”

Car: “Bob Smith ONLY has a home number, do you want me to call that?!?”

Enters Mobile number for Bob...

Me: “Call Bob Smith.”

Car: “Bob Smith has TWO numbers! Which one should I call?”

Deletes home number for Bob Smith...

Me: “Call Bob Smith.”

Car: “Bob Smith has no OTHER NUMBER, do you want to dial his mobile number?”

It would be funny if it wasn’t so frustrating.

~~~
newsbinator
Erring on the side of _not_ calling the wrong number.

Somebody somewhere made a judgement call: we'd rather annoy people by double-
asking them about almost every call, than accidentally dial and ring the wrong
person or the wrong number for them.

I think Apple/Siri gets this balance right.

------
smallstepforman
What annoys me is that I have a 2012 luxury model (pre carplay/android auto),
the hardware can support it (since I got bluetooth, gps and ipod connectivity)
but there is no option to do a software upgrade, not from the manufacturer.

Imagine the goodwill if a 2012 model had a complimentory software update
during my next scheduled service. The bastards wont even update GPS maps.

~~~
persistent
Not sure why you think BT and GPS are sufficient for Android Auto
compatibility. AA and CarPlay require the ability to use your car's display as
a peripheral.

~~~
smallstepforman
I got the option to play video from external device as Picture in Picture, so
I'd say the inbuilt unit is quite capable of sharing the display and touch
screen.

------
ryanianian
Similar experience but buying a new car is very heavy-handed. I have a car
from 2009 that I otherwise love but it only had a very basic stereo (only MP3
CDs no maps etc).

I was delighted to learn there are a bunch of after-market stereo systems you
can buy that have CarPlay/Android Auto integrated. I got the "budget" pick
from thewirecutter[1] and love it. I had a shop install it, and I got a backup
camera installed at the same time that integrates perfectly with the system.
Total cost for _everything_ including equipment and installation labor was
under $500. Best money I've spent in a while. (I wish I'd got the steering-
wheel buttons too that for an extra $50 but I didn't even know it was an
option at the time.)

[1]: [https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-car-stereos-with-
appl...](https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-car-stereos-with-apple-
carplay-and-android-auto/)

~~~
mikl
I was likely going to replace it at the end of the lease in any case, but I
might have replaced it with another BMW if their software wasn’t so awful.

------
waste_monk
>I used to love that car. It’s the first nice car I’ve owned (in Denmark,
there was a 225% tax (VAT included) on cars last I bought one, so most people
get the smallest, crappiest car that can work for their needs).

What is the reason for these extreme car taxes? as an Australian, I expect if
the government here tried to introduce/enforce these sorts of taxes (per [1])
there would be riots and possibly worse - we have a very strong car culture.
It would be political suicide to even announce you were considering it.

I see some reference to "green" fees and C02 emissions taxes, but those are in
the context of fuel being purchased. Surely this cannot also account for the
taxes on the purchase price of the car?

[1] [https://www.quora.com/What-taxes-do-car-owners-pay-in-
Denmar...](https://www.quora.com/What-taxes-do-car-owners-pay-in-Denmark)

~~~
3pt14159
If you want urban sprawl like we have in Canada and I assume Australia, then
go for it. Denmark doesn't let their cities look like crap. I say this as
someone that loves my home city, Toronto, but cars are a collective action
problem. To any one person it makes sense to take the car instead of the bus,
but if we all take the car then we all get there 2 hours later than if even
half of us took the bus or streetcar.

------
acdha
We have a 2006 Subaru. We don’t drive for our commutes so it’s in great shape
but have debated what we’ll do when it’s due to be replaced. I’ve driven some
rentals along with loaners when we’ve had our car serviced, and the primary
reason I have not to buy a new car is uniformly terrible software combined
with a touchscreen interface. Physical controls are so much faster and safer
to use that I won’t consider a car which doesn’t have them — it’s amazing how
bad the QA is on new vehicles, with slow, laggy buttons for things like
climate control. Having 10k tracks in iTunes meant an entire generation of
entertainment systems would literally crash after plugging in a USB cable; now
they’ve progressed to popping up a modal dialog which blocks all functionality
until you acknowledge that they’re bad at their jobs.

------
atombender
I rented a 2018 Toyota Prius recently. Wonderful car, but the software was
horrible, as it usually is.

The worst problem was that when I turned the car on, it would start loudly
playing random music from my iPhone via Bluetooth. Every single time, without
fault. Sometimes it would just happen randomly while driving, too. There's no
setting to turn it off. If you google the problem, you'll a bunch of forums
like priuschat.com, full of exasperated people who are trying to figure out
the problem and failing.

There's no real solution. There _is_ a workaround, and it's hilarious: Create
a playlist containing just a single track that contains a few hours of
silence. Can't stop it from being played, but at least it will be quiet.

I love CarPlay, and wish every car had it.

------
MidgetGourde
I have a 120d from 2008. No SatNav, nothing, just a CD player, a radio and a 6
speed manual gear box.

------
m0zg
One of the most annoying things about my BMW 535 is onboard electronics. The
car is only 4 years old, but it already doesn't even work with bluetooth
properly: map directions stop audio playback as they should, but then fail to
actually come through the speakers. Next time I buy a car I will be extra anal
about the entertainment system. For any kind of extended commute the ability
to have directions _and_ audiobooks/music working properly at the same time is
more critical to me than just about any other aspect of the car, excluding
reliability and safety.

And car manufacturers should at this point get on with the program and offer
proper software updates. I didn't pay $70K for the car to deal with this
bullshit.

------
ioconnor
Car manufacturers try to hook you into their software when you really should
never use any of it. Unfortunately these days you can't even buy a car without
a pile of software in it. Instead you should use only the products that come
with the phone and totally ignore the preinstalled crapware that comes with a
car. We need to go back to the days where a car does only one thing and one
thing well.

------
jdfellow
My 2013 Audi has a rather poor non-touchscreen interface. It has Bluetooth
pairing for phone calls but not for plain audio (music), which is really odd.
It does have one of those very old large iPod connectors, and I've attached a
Bluetooth adapter to that, which works well enough, except that it doesn't
turn off when I turn off the car, and my phone can reconnect randomly for
about half an hour.

I have done some shopping and found an Android Auto-capable headunit that
would replace the whole built-in thing, but it's something I haven't jumped on
yet. I wonder how many other cars can have their headunit replaced with
something CarPlay or Android Auto capable?

------
ericfrederich
Software has ruined my Jeep Wrangler
[https://youtu.be/T3IowgbXYRQ](https://youtu.be/T3IowgbXYRQ)
[https://youtu.be/j-clbv0E7f0](https://youtu.be/j-clbv0E7f0)
[https://youtu.be/CRjg8wwQ6qA](https://youtu.be/CRjg8wwQ6qA)
[https://youtu.be/Y4dTz8oM4Rs](https://youtu.be/Y4dTz8oM4Rs)
[https://youtu.be/-PRmE4dnj28](https://youtu.be/-PRmE4dnj28)

------
KingMachiavelli
If I was going to buy a new-new car, the first thing I would check at the
dealership is if the media/climate controls are reasonable (either physical
buttons or 'good' touch screen) and if the bluetooth/phone connection is
relaiable. If I found any issues, I'd just go to the next car brand. If none
work, then I'll continue buying late 2000s cars and using Bluetooth to FM
transciever.

Considering that late 2000s cars certainly do all the car things, there is
little poing in getting a newer car until the auto industury figures out how
to release a 2019 car with at least 2018 hardware and decent software.

------
drdaeman
> iDrive often flakes out and starts sending a continuous stream of “play”
> signals to my phone

Automatically sending "play" commands - even only when the phone is connected
(or reconnected) - is the worst thing ever that I've encountered. Especially
with iOS devices. Every single time I turn the ignition on, my car forces
phone to play music - and I rarely want that. Makes me want to kill whoever
had that design idea (j/k)

I wonder if there are Bluetooth proxy devices (IDK, a pair of ESP8266s?) that
just strip certain AVRCP commands sent within 5 seconds after (re)connections
while passing through everything else...

------
whydoyoucare
The whole article seems childish and a pointless rant, to be honest! All
software in cars that is not mission critical will take a long time to
mature... calling a car crap because its website is non-functional...
seriously? :-)

------
usaphp
> No Apple CarPlay (or Android Auto) at all. Once I’d driven a car with
> CarPlay, you didn’t want to drive a car without it.

First, you have a 2015 car, which means it was built in 2014, Apple Carplay
was released in 2014.

Secondly - I disagree about CarPlay being superior, I like the new BMW iDrive
much more than carplay. Maps are better in newer bmw, and the voice
recognition of addresses is amazing.

Also apple carplay does not support the heads up display, which is a must for
me now.

> Not only do they charge you extra to use CarPlay. Even though you own a car
> with CarPlay-capable hardware

Doesn't Tesla charge you extra for auto-pilot? Even tho your car has capable
hardware already?

~~~
mikl
In 2016, when I got it, there was pretty much no used/demo cars on the market
with CarPlay, and I wasn’t willing to pay for a brand new one.

Also, I hadn’t actually tried CarPlay then, and CarPlay has improved a lot
since.

Dunno about Tesla’s charges, I’ve never owned one.

------
taf2
Is it okay to mention... Tesla and how the experience of the software in a
Tesla is what makes it such a magically wonderful experience as compared to
any other car ever... among other things it upgrades automatically... so I can
remember when my wife and I were driving in our 2014 tesla and we were like
that’s weird there is no button for the passengers to adjust the volume... a
week or two later after an update the button we were missing appeared... or
being able to play fart games and now chess with my daughter while waiting to
pick up my other daughter... delightful...

~~~
nexuist
This is because Tesla is a classic Silicon Valley tech company masquerading as
a car manufacturer while the actual car manufacturers are trying to masquerade
as Apple with a hundredth of the budget and a penchant for outsourcing
critical parts of the experience to the lowest bidder.

------
leetcrew
I don't know exactly who to blame, but the android auto experience in my 2017
vw is, in a word, infuriating. android auto deadlocks for the remainder of the
drive 80% of the time I put it in reverse (I assume due to some resource
contention with the backup camera?). this can only be fixed with a hard reset
of the infotainment unit. of course, the unit has no manual reset. the only
way I've found to fix it is to turn off the car, remove the keys from the
ignition, and step outside the vehicle for about five minutes. it's great fun
on road trips.

------
nikanj
Just drove around Ireland in a rental Renault last week. It refused to let
through the audio from Google Maps navigation unless music was playing. And
not just any music e.g. Spotify, it had to be an MP3 from the built-in Apple
player.

I had one album of songs loaded onto my phone. I listened to that god-forsaken
thing for hours and hours each and every day, because navigating strange roads
in a drive-on-the-left country is hard enough without trying to read the map
at the same time.

I would have given quite a bit of money for a simple 3.5mm aux in connector.

------
mstade
I've been looking at buying a car recently, after having just rented cars and
using carpools for the past decade or so. I've been looking at maybe getting a
Volvo C70 – I like the idea of a hard top convertible, and also crucially it's
old enough (2013) to have actual dials instead of crappy touch screens while
still being new enough to be comfortable. I do like CarPlay, it'd be nice if I
could have both, but if it comes down to it I'll take the dials and buttons
over a touch screen any day.

------
WalterBright
Car software is almost always poor. I'd prefer a car simply have a convenient
holder for the phone, which has far better software on it (and is far cheaper
than the car computers).

~~~
mikl
Yeah, I have a nice holder. But beyond annoying to have to play audio from the
phone’s speakers rather than the car’s sound system.

Also, CarPlay is feasible (and legal) to use while driving. Fiddling around
with the comparatively tiny iPhone screen is both dangerous and annoying.

------
millerm
Software is why I love my Tesla Model 3. Sure, there are improvements they can
make with the infotainment system, but that is where they f’n rule! It just
gets better. Over-the-air software updates are what have totally pushed them
ahead. The car gets better over time with no trips to a service center, or
having to buy a new car. My previous cars were stuck with whatever crappy
interface and options. They could never provide me updates to fix their awful
software and interfaces.

------
acd
Imagine a car infotainment system which is open source based. With open
hardware, then you could upgrade it.

The software and computer inside a car gets older much faster than the
mechanical parts.

------
jerome-jh
Look at car ads: the infotainment system, as it is called, is now the primary
argument for selling cars. That is another symptom of the epoch rot. And
they're made harder to replace with aftermarket units.

Having said that, bluetooth took more than ten years to stabilize and some may
not have it right yet.

For Carplay: Apple has constantly been stiffening the conditions for
certification, which now includes a multi-day drive test. So the next crop may
be somewhat better.

------
reilly3000
I’ve had text input on my 2016 Subaru Outback block for 5 minutes+ while
trying to input an address. I’ve never had a RPi zero block for anything that
long. I wonder what terrible hardware they use and if it’s performance is
measured in kilohertz. It makes that expensive GPS system a slap in the face.
I would love to be able to feed it a string containing my destination address
that I input from the phone. For now, it never gets used.

------
gregimba
This is why I'm tempted to buy an older land cruiser and redo the interior
instead of buying something new with a million buttons that will fail after 5
years.

~~~
boring_twenties
The thing is that a 30 year old LC will cost you about as much as many decent
new cars.

------
petee
My 2013 Tacoma has alot of software issues with the touchscreen radio --
Bluetooth goes haywire, UI gets funky, among other things.

Toyota says there no updates were ever made, despite some issues I'm sure
people have complained about. I can't see the harm in open sourcing something
like this

Plus side is, eventually I'll just have to learn to either hack it, or cobble
something new with the parts.

------
6d6b73
I on the other hand, love that my 4Runner has a built-in crappy navigation
system. I don't like the fact that it's crappy but I love that it's there
whether I have my phone with me or not. Yes, it's not often that I don't have
my phone with me but one time when I needed navigation, to get back home, and
I dropped my phone and broke the screen it was a godsend.

------
waterside81
Damn this opened my eyes to how luxury tax works on cars in Denmark. According
to
[https://skat.dk/skat.aspx?oid=2244599](https://skat.dk/skat.aspx?oid=2244599),
there's a margin tax rate on these cars of "85% of the taxable value up to DKK
185,100 in 2017 and 150% of the rest.". Sweet jesus that's a lot.

~~~
mruts
Two wolves and a sheep voting on what’s for dinner.

------
gregkerzhner
I have a 2017 Tacoma and the Entune system is an aggravating, outdated mess. I
love how it shows a generic album cover (of missy elliot from the early 2000s)
whenever you play any type of hip hop song.

The maps are terrible in general, but their one small redeeming quality is
that they work offline. There have been a handful of times where this has been
useful when driving out of reception.

~~~
post_break
Toyota was so stubborn on this. I like how they literally just added CarPlay
support to the 2020 models.

~~~
ansible
I'd have liked to have Android Auto for my Prius, but overall it isn't too
bad, because I have the super-basic version of Entune.

It plays BT and USB audio files, and has dedicated buttons for voice command,
call and hangup.

The voice command thing I rarely use because it isn't very good.

All I _really_ want is a way to trigger Google Now from the car controls. My
BT headset can do this, but there is apparently no way to do this with the
car. Just frickin' open up a hands-free profile connection, and turn on the
microphone!

I plan on driving this car for another 15 years or so (or until they stop
selling gasoline) but I'll upgrade my phone a few times in that interval. Let
me just use the phone.

~~~
tasty_freeze
I have a 2012 Prius with Entune. The car is fine, but Entune is terrible.

Besides having only a handful of apps that aren't updated, it takes a long
time for bluetooth to detect that my phone is present (30-60 seconds), and
every few months it loses its mind and I need to tell it to forget the
bluetooth pairing and make it again.

When the car was new (and the map fresh) I tried to use the gas station finder
feature -- and it directed me to a stretch of road with nothing at all on it
.. not even a former gas station.

I have a 32GB thumb drive with my mp3 files on it; for some reason, 30 or so
seconds after starting the car, it resumes playing the contents of that thumb
drive even though I might have turned the audio off, or on radio, or on
bluetooth. Their menu system for navigating through the 8000 songs I have is
super inefficient.

When I drive with google maps on my phone, the audio alerts are forcibly
routed through bluetooth ... even if the audio is off in the car.

To be fair, the bluetooth problems could be an android problem.

It also strikes me as funny that the car has GPS built in but there are three
dedicated buttons to set the hour/minute/second of the clock.

All in all, a terrible experience. It seems like it is simply a checkbox
feature that helps to sell the car but they don't actually care about.

------
soyiuz
I'd love a car that has analog controls for several basic functions and a
secure place to attach my phone, in line of my vision.

------
greenhatman
I accidentally stumbled on this yesterday while looking for something else:
[https://www.autopi.io/](https://www.autopi.io/)

Raspberry Pi for cars. Video:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0l3cPCL1aa0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0l3cPCL1aa0)

------
neil_s
This is exactly the experience I had. Driving my friend's Honda Civic was way
more pleasurable than driving another friend's BMW, because the former had
Android Auto. Now I refuse to rent a car without one.

OP could probably buy an OTT Apple Carplay unit I think, rather than throwing
the whole car out just to replace the infotainment.

------
crooked-v
One useful tip: even with Bluetooth connections, "Hey Siri" will still use the
phone's microphone for input if that's where it picks it up, for that one
command only.

Of course, this still leaves the obvious flaw of iOS not being able to
designate separate 'input' and 'output' devices for some reason.

~~~
drdaeman
Isn't that a Bluetooth thing? In A2DP it cannot use microphone at all, and you
can't really stream music over HSP or HFP because of terrible quality...

------
post_break
I managed to get a free line from T-Mobile so I keep a phone plugged into my
car 24x7. It is so nice to have it automatically go into car play or android
auto every time I start my car. I even went so far as to retrofitting a car
play touch screen and ecu into my 2014 from a 2016 so I could add it to my
fiesta.

------
sanj
I swapped out my stock radio for one that supported CarPlay. The unit was only
$250 and about an hour of effort.

Within a week I bought another replacement for the other car.

Best tech upgrade I’ve made in my life in a while. It really is a huge
improvement over any/all software from car manufacturers.

------
galfarragem
I think it all resumes to this:

It's not feasable for any car brand to have a independent, competitive,
updated and bug free car software. It will be a matter of time until we have
only CarPlay and Android Auto probably with a skin (like we see in Android
phones) for branding purposes.

~~~
mikl
That would be good by me. The car people go back to doing what they’re good
at, and let the software people do their thing.

------
Railsify
I read the entire article and the fact that sticks with me is 225% VAT, is
that figure correct?

~~~
mikl
No, it’s a special 180% car tax, plus 25% VAT on top - 1.8*1.25 = 2.25.

Yes, you have to pay VAT on the tax, too. It’s bananas.

They did reduce it slightly a few years ago, I think it’s more like 180% in
total now.

------
iamaelephant
ITT: lots of Americans who don't realise Apple devices are not ubiquitous
everywhere.

------
nStyle
Not every car's proprietary implementation is so bad. Mazda is pretty good.

Carplay still trumps it all of course and OF COURSE it should be standard.

Honestly, nothing really replaces your phone though. A vent mount or a
magnetic mount is still my preferred solution.

------
rsbrown
> I think the market will be quite unforgiving to the car brands that do not
> prioritise software quality in the future.

The market got us here. Why _the fuck_ would you expect it to get us out of
this mess?

------
as300
This is kind of off-topic, but given there's a pretty huge VAT on foreign
cars, and this guy lives in Denmark, why didn't he just go to _Germany_ to buy
his car, and presumably not have to pay the VAT?

~~~
l4u532
first thing I thought of when I lived in Denmark, but That loophole is closed.
Cars bought in a foreign country need to be taxed if used permanently in
Denmark. Otherwise ginormous fines.

~~~
ryanlol
Tends to not apply to rich people, as you’ll just keep your nice summer car
parked across the border 6 months of the year.

------
kemiller
This is an under-appreciated thing about Teslas: they are as competent at the
software as a tech company, so this crap doesn’t happen. Your five year old
vehicle is almost as good as a new one, hardware permitting.

------
zelon88
I can't wait for this guy to get a car like an Acura or Infinity with software
he can tolerate because my guess is 500m into owning it he's going to realize
all the BMW-ness he took for granted.

------
dandare
The touch screen terminal in my Hiunday i40 is absolute crap. I wish the
carmakers would open their APIs and leave a hole in the middle panel for
whatever 3rd party table the user chooses.

------
hi41
I hate it when a song starts playing soon after starting the car. It will be
great if the driver gets to choose. Maybe he wants moments of silence or
listen to a lecture on another app.

------
jxdxbx
CarPlay is completely excellent and I bet Android Auto is also good.

------
Havoc
I think OP underestimates how much variation is out there in terms of phones
and connectivity.

And how badly they time travel. That's a car developed in 2014. Android audio
launched in 2015.

------
monksy
I read this in Jeremy Clarkson's voice and was much happier.

------
Anon3941
For older BMWs, you can get CarPlay using a device from these guys
[http://www.unichip-tec.com](http://www.unichip-tec.com)

------
huhtenberg
I still have a photo somewhere of the X6 nav system showing "-1 km" to
destination. It did look beautiful though, in that glorious custom font from
Dalton Maag.

------
foxX
This is not a criticism of cars, but rather a criticism of the sorry state of
software and computer hardware in a free-market (-ish) world.

------
lykahb
What about using a car without a phone? Is it such poor experience that a
phone with crappy pairing software is better than that?

------
chillfox
Never tried CarPlay, but I do find that the inbuilt car navigation systems
provide a convenient flat surface to attach a Tomtom.

------
GhettoMaestro
> [...] in Denmark, there was a 225% tax (VAT included) on cars last I bought
> one [...]

Wow please tell me this is inaccurate? 225% tax??

------
wwarco
Sorry earlier commented.. I'm scared shitless of drivers.... Especially along
freeway/highways/motorways.... I'm the asshole that files reports you to the
police for endangering my life, my children and my existence. My friend went
down a highway in Canada at 222mph. I literally took him outside and punched
him in the face. I apologised and told him his mum would be the next up in
line.

------
jaimex2
Heh, wait till he finds out BMW charge a subscription for Auto and Carplay.

------
aenonsun
Instead of Carplay or Android Auto, I find the phone mount more useful.

------
tomc1985
Can you even buy a car without all this software crap anymore?

------
pbreit
Making good software is a LOT harder than many realize.

------
abdulmuhaimin
I dont know why automaker are so bad in this. 2 of my cars(different brand)
both have issues connecting to phone bluetooth automatically.

------
readhn
#firstworldproblems

------
thefounder
I wonder if Tesla owners feel the same about carplay.

------
mhdhn
sounds like every new car, crap

------
wwarco
Wow destructed fucking driver

------
NoblePublius
Buy a Tesla.

------
baybal2
Man, buy a normal multimedia player for the 2DIN slot.

~~~
jdietrich
There is no 2DIN slot on the F30 3 Series.

~~~
baybal2
> There is no 2DIN slot on the F30 3 Series.

It is such an expensive car, but comes without the most basic luxuries. What a
disappointment.

------
layoutIfNeeded
Sounds like typical German software.

------
swamp40
50 complaints, all audio related. Doesn't upgrade to a better stereo.

~~~
bradlys
Upgrading the head units in modern BMWs is, practically speaking, impossible.
Almost all manufacturers have moved away from standard single or double DIN
units.

------
ex3ndr
You don't need car play it is a crap comparing to, for example, Teala's
infotament.

------
ltbarcly3
So buy a new radio and have it installed... I agree that idrive is crap but
you can replace it for $400

------
andreygrehov
BMW 320d is not a fancy car by any means. You'd be better off getting a fully
loaded Toyota/Honda/Acura rather than overpaying for BMW.

~~~
andreygrehov
Holy cow you downvoters. Fancy BMW is 7 series. High taxes do not make cars
fancier.

~~~
ryanlol
I drive one of those, have weird carplay trouble once a week or so. Pretty
quick to solve with a reboot though.

Luxury car software tends to be pretty terrible.

~~~
andreygrehov
It's a massive bummer that a luxury 7-series does not have good software, but
it doesn't make the car less fancy. It has gorgeous interior, amazing fabrics,
etc. The OP could simply acknowledge that BMW's software sucks. I'm pretty
sure most brands have the same software installed on all of its models.

~~~
ryanlol
Oh yeah, it is weird to call a 320d a “luxury car”. Even in Nordic countries
with super high taxes it’d be weird to describe anything below a 5-series as
“luxury”.

~~~
mikl
If you live outside the big cities, a BMW is a pretty rare sight in Denmark,
even if its just a 3-series.

~~~
ryanlol
A rare sight, sure. A ridiculously expensive car? Definitely. A luxury car?
no.

There are a plenty of actual luxury cars in Denmark.

~~~
mikl
I guess it’s rather pointless to argue about where to put the bar for
"luxury". For some, it might be Audi or BMW, for other it might be Ducati or
Bentley, it’s not exactly a scientifically defined term.

~~~
ryanlol
Oh, this is certainly pretty pointless.

However these vehicle classifications tend to be fairly well standardized and
“luxury” has a specific meaning.

Even in Denmark a 3-series will fall in the D-segment as a ”store
mellemklassebil” and isn’t a “luksusbil” in the F-segment.

