
France Launches French Tech Ticket, a Startup Visa for Foreign Entrepreneurs - lelf
http://techcrunch.com/2015/06/29/france-launches-french-tech-ticket-a-startup-visa-for-foreign-entrepreneurs/
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Htsthbjig
As an entrepreneur in Europe I avoid France at all cost, even when it is a big
market for us, we develop for them outside.

Great place to live, bad place for working. Worse if the people that decide on
your visas and conditions are Communist people. Central planning(communism) is
the opposite of startups.

In the US people(the culture and society) admire people that makes money, in
my opinion too much. When Americans talk about people they say things like "he
is worth X thousands dollars", implying that people is worth the money they
have in the bank.

In France it is the polar opposite, the culture hates successful people, envy
is endemic and taxes are on the roof, and will only grow higher when the
German money stops flowing.

France is one of the natural wealthiest countries I have ever lived, but
French people are not very efficient at exploiting it. They believe in eternal
rights, but not on duties.

The same way than when you live in China you feel the Cultural revolution, in
France you feel the French Revolution at every corner.

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SandersAK
Having lived in France for four years trying to start a company, I can say,
without question, this would be the worst idea for anyone who is serious about
starting a company.

Most french LEAVE france because of how byzantine and insane the laws are
towards companies (let alone startups).

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xGrill
Can you elaborate on this? I had this idea lingering in the back of my head to
move to France for 3-6 months to build out my concept/prototype and then move
back to the US when I am ready to leave the "pre-revenue" stage of the
startup.

~~~
SandersAK
if your plan is to just vacation in France for 6 months and hack on a
prototype, do it. But that probably applies to anywhere in the world.

If you want to set a business up and live in France forreals, then don't do
that, and read below.

tl;dr - france is not a culture celebrated for its high risk profile. it
celebrates its past and culture, things it wishes to preserve. everything else
suffers because of this.

Moving from US to France all of your costs are going to go up. It's really
hard to get French people to adopt the latest trends. Historically things are
very conservative with the benefit of the doubt erring on the side of the
status quo.

Any legal, gov't, or bureaucratic issues you think you have in the US, you can
multiply by 20 if you set up in france.

The whole taxation system in France was never designed to deal with risk-heavy
entreprises. If you employ someone, you must budget for paid vacation. To
employ them at all, you need to draft either a CDI (Contract Duration
Indeterminée)which means basically that you're employing them for life, or CDD
(Contract Duration Determiné) which means you employ them on short term
contract only. So either you marry them or you can't promise them much upside.

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yulaow
Serious questions: are not these types of contract a standard in almost any
west-EU/north-EU country?

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SandersAK
I dunno about anywhere else, but in America these are definitely not standard.
In CA most tech employees are at-will.

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yulaow
Yeah, you have to consider in west Europe is valued very high by everyone the
"stability of work" because it allows you, as a employee, to live with less
stress and with more chances to make long-term investments (family, children,
buying an house, etc) and so keeping the economy and welfare up and stable.

Basically US is very employey/corporation-centric, while EU puts a lot more
importance on employees (that are the majority of people by the way)

~~~
SandersAK
Yep, I don't disagree with this. I don't know what the answer is. My dream is
some mix of US risk taking coupled withe European humanism... but that got us
the UK and that's not my idea of a good time either.

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jeremyt
I can't really believe this is a serious idea. Or maybe it is a serious idea
from people who have no idea how startups work.

As one of the other commenters said, the primary reason I wouldn't start a
company in France is the "Byzantine and insane laws" that you have to deal
with. For starters, how about all of the employment laws that make it
difficult to fire poor performing employees.

But beyond that, look at the tax rates. As someone who has been through
starting a company before, it's just not worth it without the chance of a good
return in the future. A quick internet search reveals that as a non-French
citizen, I would be liable for around 56% in taxes if my company ever exited.
Compare that with the qualified small business rate of about 15% here in the
states...

It's almost offensive to me that the French government thinks that the only
thing standing between a successful tech scene and where they are now is the
ability to get a visa and some seed capital. Hubris much?

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alexeichemenda
Regarding taxes, you're comparing two _very_ different things. The 15% you're
talking about is, as you said, qualified small business rate, which means you
have [..] to hold it for more than 5 years. The 56% you're talking about in
France is an over simplified number. My company just got acquired (i'm a co-
founder), and I can guarantee you I got a better tax deal in France than you
will ever get in the US.

I'm not even going to get into the laws debate, but just keep in mind, just
like the taxes, it's not at all how you think it is :)

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jacquesm
After the dailymotion debacle France would not be top of my list if I
considered doing a start-up.

[http://venturebeat.com/2013/04/30/sacrebleu-french-pride-
kil...](http://venturebeat.com/2013/04/30/sacrebleu-french-pride-kills-yahoo-
dailymotion-deal/)

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metahatem
Not sure how to feel about this considering the recent Uber events in France.
(Uber France Leaders Arrested For Running Illegal Taxi Company /
[http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/06/two-uber-
executiv...](http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/06/two-uber-executives-
in-france-detained-for-questioning/))

As an entrepreneur, that is not enticing to me.

~~~
scarmig
There are, of course, other lines of businesses for start-ups to get into.

It is probably true that if you're looking to disrupt how employment markets
function, France is probably not a great place to focus your initial efforts.
But there are lots of ways to make money outside of that.

~~~
bloodorange
Lots of ways to make money without breaking the law.

~~~
MCRed
That's only true until your business threatens a competitor with more
political influence... in countries where the laws are written that way. (The
USA counts as such a country, though we don't do it as much as france- look at
how much protection the cable and wireless companies have.)

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iamcurious
_They need to work on a startup, speak English and stay at least six months in
France._

Interesting. I expected _speak French or English._.

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codegeek
Think about it this way. Expecting foreigners to speak French may be a bigger
hurdle to attract interest compared to expecting foreigners to speak English
which is spoken the most in the world.

Yes french could still be mentioned but it may not make much difference.

~~~
iamcurious
It would make the difference to a small group of people who speak French
fluently but little to no English, but that is not what I find interesting. I
find interesting that France, notorious for protecting its own language, will
put a foreign language above it.

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codewithcheese
I wish they would decouple the money from the visa; so they can hand out more
visas. I would be interested to live some time in France while I bootstrap a
business. I don't need money from the government, actually I will bring my
own...that's why countries should be more lenient with visas for entrepreneurs

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akg_67
This program might appeal to digital nomads. It is a good way to work on your
projects for 6 months in a country and then move on to someplace else. I am
guessing the program may have some restrictions in this aspect. Nevertheless,
interesting program to attract entrepreneurship if conditions are not onerous.

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potomushto
Interesting, the same Startup Visa program for Italy got the same negative
reaction[1]. I wonder which European country has the best conditions to start
the new high-risk Internet company? Finland? Poland?

1\.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8890952](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8890952)

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jacquesm
It very much depends on where you are coming from. If you're from the USA or
Canada the UK would be your first choice, Germany your second.

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phanindra_veera
Is there anything similar in U.S.A ?

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psychometry
No, but Canada has one:
[http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/business/start-
up/](http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/business/start-up/)

~~~
hasenj
Awesome! I didn't realize Canada had a startup visa!

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lucidrains
after seeing the anti-Uber protests, why would anyone in their right minds go
do a startup in France?

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pesenti
Because there is very good tech talent with much less competition and lower
costs than in the US - in part because schools are mostly free.

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solve
Lower competition - my favorite lie that I hear told in every EU country. EU
is not lower competition from the entrepreneur's perspective. Anywhere in the
EU is vastly higher competition.

\- Unless you're doing a hyper-local product, you're competing on the global
scale.

\- The ratio of active investors versus serious entrepreneurs is far, far
worse in France than in Silicon Valley.

\- Getting good people in France to join your startup is very easy. Getting
the absolute best people in the world, that's tough. Not because they don't
exist in France. It's because the absolute best people want to leave France.
Top talent wants to move to the #1 best place in the world for their industry,
no less.

The lifecycle of a (non-lifestyle) startup anywhere in the EU is far harder
than it is in Silicon valley, at every stage.

If the government continues to add serious benefits, and many other changes
happen though, the balance could maybe start to shift.

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iamcurious
_It 's because the absolute best people want to leave France._

 _Top talent wants to move to the #1 best place in the world for their
industry, no less._

Are those definitions or observations?

