
Laptop explodes while charging at Letchworth business - clumsysmurf
http://www.thecomet.net/news/moment-laptop-explodes-while-charging-in-letchworth-1-5447963
======
simmons
> _Now Steve wants to warn the public about the dangers of LiPo batteries if
> left on charge for a substantial amount of time._

I've also occasionally heard recommendations from people to not leave devices
charging because it may potentially wear out the battery prematurely. This may
be a myth. But I always wonder -- why would the charging circuit not moderate
the charging and mitigate such risks? Why should I as a user be responsible
for providing just the right amount of charging?

~~~
jobigoud
> the dangers of LiPo batteries

I think it's Li-Ion batteries in laptops, not LiPo.

LiPos have a tendency to degas/explode unexpectedly even when the charger is
good.

Multicopter/drones use LiPo batteries and there are multiple horror stories of
pilots having their house destroyed. We have now learned to store them in
special fireproof bags/containers even when not charging, never charge them
unattended, always have a fire extinguisher near the charging station, etc.

BTW I see a phantom hanging on the wall... Maybe he tried to charge the laptop
battery with the LiPo charger?

~~~
jacquesm
I absolutely loathe the degree to which manufacturers will embed LiPo's into
just about everything including wearables without disclosing the fact. If
you're clever about this sort of stuff and see a certain form factor coupled
with larger than expected operating times you can infer the presence of LiPo's
with some accuracy but your average consumer doesn't stand a chance and has no
idea what the difference between all these different battery chemistries is in
the first place and what the implications are.

~~~
sitkack
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery)
or LiFePO4 has much better safety properties. Any device sold to consumers
should be required to have temperature monitoring, over voltage and over
current protection. If it fails any onboard safety check it should render
itself inoperable.

~~~
jacquesm
That sounds like a good development. I'm especially concerned about stuff worn
against the body (earbuds, sports wearables, watches, cellphones). Laptops and
tablets are also potentially dangerous but it's not as if every fuck up will
immediately lead to injury.

~~~
Zak
I review flashlights and headlamps as a hobby. Many modern high-powered ones
use removable Li-ion cells, most commonly 18650 size.

Temperature monitoring has become very common. The primary heat source is
almost always the LED, not the battery, but it would be sufficient to detect a
battery nearing thermal runaway. Low-voltage protection is common, but
sometimes only a warning blink rather than a hard cutoff based on the idea
that leaving the user in the dark might be worse than damaging a battery.

Some models have onboard charging, most often through MicroUSB. Correctly
charging a single Li-ion cell is not difficult, and I haven't seen one get it
seriously wrong yet.

LiFePO4 has seen a little use, but is not popular due to its much lower energy
density. I suspect this has kept it out of other portable devices as well
since users always seem to want longer runtime in ever smaller devices.

~~~
Animats
It was popular for pro power tools for a while. Those get a lot of abuse, and
people are constantly changing battery packs so they max out on charging
cycles. DeWalt used LiFePO4 from A123 Systems. But they seem to have given
that up.

~~~
tossandturn
I honestly wonder why. I developed a portable small-quantity project a few
years ago and designed in a 20AH LiFePO4 battery pack; it seemed like the only
sane choice. The cost was slightly higher and density was slightly lower, but
the difference was less than 10%. Not having to be concerned with battery
failure modes was a huge advantage. But those factors must be different at
larger scales; the largest scale I can think of where density matters would be
for a commercial electric 18-wheeler tractor; what chemistry do those use?

~~~
Animats
Price. Ordinary lithium-ion batteries have dropped in price due to volume
production and competition. LiFePO4, not so much.

------
lucb1e
How often does this happen? This is the first time I've ever heard of it, and
apparently it's uncommon enough to make the news and subsequently the HN front
page.

Not battery fires in general, like I've heard/seen enough Youtube videos about
quadcopter LiPos, and the Samsung Note 7 or whatever it was, but laptop
batteries specifically. There's enough space to build safety in, and they
don't fly around at high speeds like quadcopters.

The owner of course gives the advice of always unplugging laptops when you're
not there and stuff, but I'd say the same if it was my office which burned
down (hindsight bias). It's beneficial for battery makers to be slim on safety
margins because then you can squeeze more juice into it, but as far as I know
there's still lots of safety features on modern Li-ion/LiPo batteries, and
this seems like either a one-in-a-billion or a (factory) defect.

~~~
blattimwind
Most thicker laptops run on 18650 cells, which are mechanically quite
resilient. They almost always use unprotected cells with a Uchiya cutoff and a
dedicated BMS with some fusing and thermal, voltage and current monitors.

No external mechanisms can help with issues originating within a cell
(mechanical damage etc.), which methinks is a more common cause of
catastrophic failures.

------
yborg
I don't know if having it off the charger will necessarily prevent issues. I
had an old ~2010 Macbook Pro battery pack that stopped taking a charge, but
which I decided to keep around because I thought I might see if it was
possible to replace the cells. Kind of forgot about it, so it sat on a desktop
for maybe a year, and then I tossed it in a closet maybe a year ago. While
cleaning in there recently, I found this:

[https://my.mixtape.moe/kceuko.jpg](https://my.mixtape.moe/kceuko.jpg)
[https://my.mixtape.moe/zbvjdu.jpg](https://my.mixtape.moe/zbvjdu.jpg)

It was in a closed ziploc bag, which showed no evidence of high heat, but kind
of disturbing in that I assumed after a year of sitting it would have fully
discharged.

~~~
cptskippy
This is not unexpected for LiPo batteries. The anode in LiPo battery packs
degrades overtime and outgasses oxygen which is why the packs puff up. This by
itself won't cause an explosion but if you puncture the pack and expose it to
water or flame you might get some fireworks.

~~~
yborg
That's interesting, I assumed the reaction was rapid but I didn't see it
happen. It's not obvious in the pics, but 2 stacked cells in the pack swelled,
so I assumed it involved an electrical issue.

Related question - best way to safely dispose of old LiPo batteries? I don't
want to just toss it in the regular trash (for one thing, might ignite in
there.)

~~~
occamrazor
I.r.o. the latter question, ask the local recycling company.

Batteries are a fire hazard and a heavy pollutant if thrown in the regular
trash, but most of the raw materials can be recycled if disposed of properly.

------
jacquesm
A friend was the chief fire marshall for a very large (1.8 million
inhabitants) European city. At night he would go through all the rooms and
unplug each and every charger.

He's seen so many fires and has gone to the root cause of them that he sees
chargers and batteries as incendiary devices, not consumer electronics.

I'll send this video to him, not that he needs more examples but it is quite
striking how fast this goes from 'laptop charging on a desk' to 'office on
fire' and what little if any warning there was that this was about to happen.

~~~
RangerScience
Then, be extra super wary about any batteries near christmas trees.

(Like, if you pick _one_ takeaway from this and change _one_ thing about your
life, maybe that one?)

~~~
Someone1234
That's why artificial christmas trees are legitimately safer. If people insist
on a real tree then keep it well watered until you throw it away, the dry
trees catch fire easier and faster.

I purchased an artificial in no small part for the safety aspect. I do miss
the smell though.

~~~
thaumaturgy
"Easier and faster" is an understatement:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0u5jCPHmevE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0u5jCPHmevE)

That comparison video was by the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission, from
not long before Trump neutered them ([http://thehill.com/opinion/white-
house/375273-trump-is-decim...](http://thehill.com/opinion/white-
house/375273-trump-is-decimating-the-consumer-product-safety-commission)).

~~~
sah2ed
Holy crap, wow! The difference between dry and wet trees is incredibly stark.

------
petee
> _" He only decided to leave it on charge when he unplugged it and it turned
> off immediately."_

Sounds like the first warning sign that something was going wrong; if it
wasn't dead prior, I would have been wary of keeping it on charge...20/20 I
guess

~~~
JustSomeNobody
Indeed. The battery was bad and wouldn't hold charge, but the charging
circuitry probably would still try and charge the battery and it eventually,
catastrophically failed. Owner is lucky they were not sitting there at the
time.

If your battery doesn't hold a charge anymore, don't keep it plugged in. There
should probably be a PSA for battery handling at this point.

~~~
detritus
Thanks for this! My partner's laptop has started giving battery-related
warnings and I - even as someone vaguely technical - hadn't really considered
it might become actively dangerous.

If I'm totally honest, I simply and somewhat cynically figured it was a ruse
by the manufacturer to bilk some money from us on an unneeded replacement,
given its software's likely counting daysSincePurchase!

~~~
jschwartzi
Modern lithium-ion batteries have a really nice voltage regulator and smart
charger embedded within which can estimate cell wear, count charge/discharge
cycles, and tell you how much absolute charge is remaining.

It's at least possible for the manufacturer to be using this information
instead of simply counting the hours.

------
wanderer2323
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwLUD41f15U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwLUD41f15U)

Lithium dendrite growth, the (mostly not understood) cause of the battery
catching fire.

------
setquk
This isn’t really a surprise. Most modern battery tech has a hell of a lot of
energy in it which is what we desire to support long run times. It only takes
a manufacturing error or some physical damage to let all that out pretty
sharpish. This is usually a violent incendiary process on LiPo cells.

I doubt the battery in question was overcharged or this was because it was
left on charge, but because it was faulty or damaged.

This one is a relatively small one:
[https://youtu.be/bqcX1AjdxSw](https://youtu.be/bqcX1AjdxSw)

------
upofadown
Looks like my general policy of never charging batteries _on_ something
flammable is going to have to be modified to not charging batteries _near_
something flammable.

Like, what the heck, there were long jets of burning stuff spurting out of the
battery. It was like it was designed to light the place on fire on a failure.

~~~
maxerickson
I was helping my mom deal with her phone that was injured in a crushing
accident and treated the damn thing like a hazard (stuck it outside on the
driveway in a water resistant container to wait to go to the store the next
day).

I was quite surprised that the employees didn't think anything of the
potential for a damaged battery.

~~~
agumonkey
my 2 cents: they never had to deal with battery venting into fire. when that
happens to you once, you don't even think twice about precautions

------
larrik
Wow, with video and everything. This was a lot scarier than I expected.

------
ceautery
There's a lot of paper underneath that charging laptop.

~~~
dmix
I also didn't see a sprinkler on the roof go off. I thought that was common in
most offices... I could be wrong.

------
confounded
Hm. I’m keen to get an uninterruptible power supply (UPS) so that I can self-
host more services from home, but I’m extremely worried about the fire-risk.

I’m afraid I know little about battery construction to know whether this is a
valid concern, or what specifications/designs to look for. Do any of the
battery experts of this thread have any advice?

~~~
pwg
All UPS'es (unless things have changed) use sealed lead-acid batteries.

Not the same battery chemistry, so much reduced (if nearly zero) fire risk
from a UPS.

~~~
JonDav
There are some out there, but not at the commercial/industrial level. Like you
said, higher risk along with added shipping cost keeps them out of the
mainstream. Also the need for lightweight UPS systems for servers is pretty
low. One bad thing if a lead battery is involved in a fire is the spreading of
lead contamination, that's not cheap to clean up, but it's low probability.

------
oxymoran
I came into work about two weeks ago and my HP laptop felt and smelled like it
was on fire(it wasn’t). It wouldn’t turn on though, completely fried. I wonder
if something similar would have happened if I hadn’t showed up at that time.

------
AdmiralAsshat
I have a Toshiba laptop that has the uptime of an average server. It was part
of their Qosmio line, the gaming laptops of their day, and weighed about ten
pounds making it difficult to lug, so the thing has pretty much been on and
plugged in nonstop since 2010 or so. It reboots maybe once every two months to
complete Windows 7 updates.

Never had a problem with it. Not sure if batteries are just getting worse or
if it's a result of the trend of trying to make things thinner-and-lighter
such that there's not room for the battery to expand as it's likely to do over
time without exploding.

------
amelius
There are various products that protect against this.

Search for "battery explosion fire containment bag"

------
solarkraft
It's funny that it's an HP (they have a history of over-heating). However,
while batteries combusting are never nice, this is hardly an explosion.

~~~
lucb1e
> they have a history of over-heating

Do you know of any laptop brand with products <$1k which never had an
overheating problem?

------
dghughes
Crap. I have a 2018 HP Envy x360 the battery is very small only 43Wh it seems
like it always needs to be charged that just ups the risk.

------
mmagin
A fire, not a bomb.

~~~
jacquesm
Check the video. It starts off as a fire, then there is a significant bang and
pieces spray all over the room.

~~~
dbasedweeb
That’s still deflagration and not detonation. Don’t get me wrong, understand
that rapid thermal decomposition of a battery strongly resembles an explosion,
but it isn’t one. Scary, dangerous, but only in terms of burns and shrapnel,
no shockwave is produced.

~~~
jacquesm
I am fairly sure the distinction is lost on the general public, and I am also
fairly sure that to all intents and purposes it will not make a difference.
When people plug in a laptop and it goes _bang_ and sprays burning pieces all
over the room they will be more than happy to call it an explosion (see title
of TFA) even if the scientist in you does not see one.

Also, I did not see a barometer in the footage and if expanding gas did not
propel those pieces of shrapnel outwards I wonder what did. So maybe there was
a shockwave, just not a very large one and that was probably mostly due to the
confinement of the battery not being very strong.

If there is one way to turn a small bang into a bigger one it is by confining
the gas a little longer by using a stronger package.

~~~
portofcall
First I just want to say that I agree with you, that was an explosion;
explosion and detonation aren’t necessarily the same thing. Loud noise and
rapidly expanding gas = explosion. One correction though, which is that a
shockwave is supersonic, and just judging by the fact that burning fragments
were on the floor and not punching through the wall, I’ll guess it wasn’t
supersonic.

Still an explosion!

~~~
jacquesm
Ah I wasn't aware of that distinction, I thought a shockwave was any sudden
rise and subsequent fall in pressure. Learn a new thing every day, thank you!

~~~
portofcall
My pleasure, and by the way, I really enjoy your blog. You have an interesting
perspective and you write very well.

------
notafxn
That HP laptop has an apple on it.

~~~
pmlnr
No, it does not, that's an HP logo.

~~~
dllthomas
Right, something like [https://brain-images-
ssl.cdn.dixons.com/6/3/10169036/u_10169...](https://brain-images-
ssl.cdn.dixons.com/6/3/10169036/u_10169036.jpg)

~~~
notafxn
Oh, that was stupid :D

------
gl00pp
IT tech here. I recently had a Dell laptop I unboxed, plugged in CAT5 and
power then turned on. Walked away for 5 mins. Came back into my office and
smoke was billowing out from the center of the keyboard! I yanked out the
power adapter and kicked the fucker into a plastic box and RAN it to the
bathroom where I threw it into a sink and waited. It didn't full on combust
but the keyboard was melted and so was the bottom. Dell didn't want to hear
ANY of it. They immediately wanted it sent to them. Manager made me just send
it back without complaining further. They replaced the keys and mobo and SENT
THE FUCKER back to use. Still singed an all. I should note that we open 10 or
15 new Latitudes a month. THis was the only firebomb we've had.

------
newnewpdro
Isn't there slight hint of insurance fraud odor in this story?

------
sanlyx
I bet they turned on some chrome://flags ;)

------
matt_wulfeck
Initially I saw an Apple logo and was genuinely surprised, but after realizing
it was an HP logo I was much less so.

It would be really interesting to see what each company does to protect the
health of batteries. I bet there’s a huge difference between them.

~~~
ballenf
Given the age of the laptop, 2014, I would be very surprised if this was the
original battery. And, if replaced, surprised if it was not the cheapest
option off eBay. OEM batteries are surprisingly difficult to source for many
laptops after a few years (sometimes if you don't order it with the laptop
upfront, you're sol), not to mention priced 3-5x higher than no-name
replacements.

That being said, I have bought a lot of no-names over the years and haven't
had even so much as an abnormally hot one yet. More often they just perform at
3/4ish capacity of the new "real" one.

~~~
jschwartzi
I've stopped buying OEM batteries from anyone but the manufacturer because of
the sheer quantity of counterfeits I've gotten off of Amazon.

~~~
abawany
Agreed, same for eBay. The useless rubbish they push is just insane. I now
look for OEM from reputable vendors or Anker if they make it for the device.

