
How black drug dealers are using white supremacist legal theories to confound the Feds. - robg
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2008/0805.carey.html
======
michael_dorfman
I've had some dealings with the "sovereign citizen" nutcases before, but I
hadn't heard that the concepts were being adopted in the "inner-city-drug-
dealer" milieu. It's bizarre stuff-- almost like the Flat Earth Society, but
these people actually believe the nonsense they are spouting. I had one guy
try to argue, with a straight face, that the word "includes" is limiting, so
that when the Tax Code says something like "For the purposes of this act, The
United States includes the District of Columbia", it actually means that the
United States is _only_ the District of Columbia, and does not include the 50
States.

~~~
Psyonic
That sort of makes sense. Think of something like this. "The Blue Group will
be performing in your home town tomorrow night. The Blue Group includes John
the Juggler, Ryan the Rocketman, and Gina the Gorilla-fighter!" This seems to
imply that John, Ryan, and Gina are the only members of The Blue Group.
Comprises would probably be the better word to use here, but includes doesn't
seem to out of place. Dictionary.com has more about the controversy:
<http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/includes>

~~~
michael_dorfman
Sorry, but no. The "controversy", if you can call it that, is whether or not
it is proper to use "includes" with a list that is complete-- everybody agrees
that it is the best choice for an incomplete list. Check your link again.

Seriously: if I said "The science faculty includes two Nobel Laureates", would
you really think that there were only two professors on staff?

It's a nonsensical argument at best-- and when folks attempt to use it to
argue against common sense (like stating that the United States does not
include the 50 States), reason is left whimpering in the corner.

------
marvin
This is incredibly fascinating, and not just because a bunch of killers
avoided the death penalty by sprouting nonsense. I love to see cases like
these put naked before the audience. You usually only hear of them indirectly,
like "This-and-this guy who killed these-and-these was sentenced to death
here-or-there"

The judge said "you're throwing your life away" and "you're commiting suicide
in broad daylight" on numerous occasions. Do words like these really work on
people who will almost certainly be killed anyway? Why doesn't the judge say
"sit down and shut up" instead? It's a bit harsh and certainly destroys the
illusion that the judge is there to help, but at least it's honest. And
prosecutors using nonsense legal defense against the defendant, as if it were
in itself a crime serious enough deserve a few years in prison? This smells
like a rat.

I actually hope that this becomes a trend during trials for the death penalty
or life sentences. Taking someone's life like this is a barbaric custom, but
in today's legal system it seems almost legitemate. It's a good thing that
"defendants" that have nothing to lose refuse to go peacefully. If all
defendants have to be barred from the courtroom, it removes the illusion of a
fair proceeding. Sentencing someone to death or fifty years of pain can almost
never be justified.

------
andreyf
"Better that N guilty person go free than that one innocent suffer"

<http://www.law.ucla.edu/volokh/guilty.htm>

~~~
te_platt
I really enjoyed the article. Somehow I'm not convinced it's not parody.

------
cellis
Please, please, please take this back to reddit.

~~~
daniel-cussen
Did you read it first? It was an awesome article. It isn't paranoid
conspiracy-theory linkbait at all, despite what the title may imply. It's a
retelling of the crimes and the ensuing trial of four African Americans who
decide to use an obsolete legal defense that, once upon a time, legitimated
chattel slavery to try to escape the death penalty. It's surreal. It may have
themes in common with some very bad articles on reddit, but it is not one of
them. It's a false positive. This belongs on Hacker News.

~~~
cellis
Yes, I read it first. It wasn't an awesome article: mostly just a depressing
story about a few men who murdered someone and wanted to get away with it.
Happens everyday. Its not surreal. Its definitely not hacker news.

~~~
davidw
I thought it was interesting, but completely unrelated to hacker news, as the
really strained "6 degrees of hacker news" comments below demonstrate.

------
wallflower
After reading the article, I think it relates to News.YC in the terms of it is
about individuals who are trying to hack the judicial system using obscure
legal theories because they have nothing to lose (besides their lives -
government was seeking death penalty). And, to give away the ending, their
bold hack succeeded after 2+ years of the defendants' gerrymandering
(government dropped death penalty case, now life in maximum-security prison).
And these are the types of powerful individuals who will survive but might
possibly thrive in the controlled world of prison.

------
raganwald
Perhaps someone could help me understand how this is of interest to hackers?

~~~
crocus
Hackers are interested in more than just hack _ing_. This is an interesting
new phenomenon. The fact that the title has some words you'd see in a reddit
title doesn't automatically make a story politicized flamebait.

If you think something is offtopic, flag it. It gets boring when people use
the comment threads to complain about stuff they think is offtopic, just like
it's boring when people complain about being downmodded.

~~~
raganwald
_If you think something is offtopic, flag it_

If I knew what was and wasn't off-topic, I would. in this case there was
something that smelled faintly of hacking the justice system, so I didn't
immediately jump to the conclusion that this was inappropriate. But OTOH, it
did seem irrelevant to hacking computers and starting businesses.

That's why I asked the question instead of simply ignoring it. HN is an
evolving site, and many things that would have seem very out of place six
months ago are on the front page today.

I'm not interested in retarding progress, I'm just trying to understand where
we are going so I can play well with others.

~~~
robg
When I post something like this, I'm thinking of:

 _If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that
gratifies one's intellectual curiosity._

<http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html>

Except I substitute "me" for "one's". If it gratifies my intellectual
curiosity then maybe it will other users' as well. That said, I think it's
personally important to use votes as community feedback for my future posts.

If anything, I worry about a community that becomes too homogeneous because
interestingness involves variability. All I can do here is submit links.
Whether it's interesting to the community is up to the community to decide
(expressed in votes and comments). For instance, I'm often provoked by David
Brooks (NY Times columnist). But he doesn't ever really talk about computers
or business. Initially, I was skeptical about posting one of his columns. But
it was received well and so I posted more.

This article was borderline for me. But what's the worst that can happen? It
doesn't get votes? So I'd rather shade toward posting than not while still
keeping the guidelines firmly in mind. I've often been surprised that the
community appreciates some links that don't "belong" on a superficial
analysis. Similarly, I've enjoyed science, law, art, and even political
articles linked here (the last in small doses). I think that's a good thing. A
uniform community is a boring one.

------
hooande
This article was all kinds of awesome. Very rare that I get to see hardcore
gangster stories on hacker news. And how can you beat a story about a drug
dealer named "Little Rock"? Upvote.

------
maxklein
They were probably just trying to avoid the death sentence. And it worked.

In any case, I'm happy for them, because I'm very strongly against the death
sentence in ALL cases.

------
pius
_The Wire_ meets _Good Will Hunting_.

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5JPliWh6G4>

