
Russia opposition leader poisoned with Novichok - amai
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54002880
======
actionscripted
If you ever wonder about the extent of Russia's online efforts consider that
the comments on this HN thread might be part of things.

Not saying anything in here is good/bad/other but you rarely see this level of
flagged and down-voted comments in a HN thread.

~~~
dang
This comment breaks the site guidelines: " _Please don 't post insinuations
about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It
degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse,
email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data._"

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

Sinister insinuation about astroturfing is the internet's favorite pastime.
The overwhelming majority of this, as far as we can tell from countless hours
looking at the data, is pure imagination.

Is it possible that the manipulation is so sinister and so clever that it
leaves no traces we can see in the data, and yet thousands of internet
commenters see what we don't? Sure it's possible. But following that path
means abandoning evidence. That way leads to the wilderness of mirrors. The
only sane way to look at this is to require some evidence, some objective peg
of some kind (we'll take anything!) to hang your suspicions on. The presence
of opposing viewpoints, downvotes, and flags on divisive issues is no evidence
at all. It just means that the community is divided.

As far as I can tell, the psychological phenomenon driving this phenomenon is
that people are deeply reluctant to take in how wide the range of legitimately
opposing views is. We're probably hard-wired to see the world as much smaller
than it is. Bring us all, with that hard-wiring, into a community of millions
of people on the internet, and the inevitable result is that people see spies,
shills, astroturfers, and foreign agents everywhere. No—what you're seeing is
that there are a _lot_ of humans with very different backgrounds from yours.
And on any issue with an international dimension, multiply that phenomenon by
a hundred.

I've written about this a zillion times:
[https://hn.algolia.com/?query=astroturf%20by:dang&sort=byDat...](https://hn.algolia.com/?query=astroturf%20by:dang&sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0).
See also
[https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...](https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20wilderness%20of%20mirrors&sort=byDate&type=comment)
and
[https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...](https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20backgrounds&sort=byDate&type=comment)
for how often I repeat myself.

~~~
sam_lowry_
@dang, I collected 5000 exit points of what seems to be sources of Kremlinbot
activity here:
[https://gist.github.com/mikhailian/5d65694fdaaf0ccbab4c6cf39...](https://gist.github.com/mikhailian/5d65694fdaaf0ccbab4c6cf39de47544)
watch out these are IPv4 and IPv6 formatted lists of subnets as exported from
ipset.

There are some specifics to my use case, take this with a grain of sault. Hope
this helps sorting genuine Putin-lovers from Kremlin bots.

~~~
lazyjones
I picked a random IPv4 address from this list and looked at it. It's a dynamic
mobile IP address from Belgium, used by thousands of customers.

Come on people, apply some common sense and stop the hysteria.

~~~
sam_lowry_
I know, there are quite a few of those. Pick one of the subnets, they are more
interesting.

~~~
lazyjones
But what is somebody supposed to do with this list, when it contains dynamic
IP addresses used by many people? Ban everything on it, based on the
assumption that some of them are actually endpoints of suspicious activity,
thereby preventing many innocent people from using the Internet?

At my previous company I dealt with all the scraping bots for 15 years, in the
end I even banned all of Tor and many of the commercial proxy network
providers, with the justification that our site (CSE) didn't need anonymous
posting because there was nothing sensitive and no private information on it.
But I couldn't ban dynamic IP addresses for more than a few minutes since all
the abusers originating from them happily obtained a new address within
seconds and continued the scraping, rendering the IP address pool used by
their provider completely banned from using our site.

~~~
sam_lowry_
I should have filtered IP addresses, leaving only ranges before posting. Mea
culpa.

IP addresses are blocked in a different context but land on the same list.

Still, to answer your question, dynamic IP addresses can be sticky. Where I
operate, some ISPs lease the same IP address for each IP lease renewal. The
only way to get an IP address is to wait until the lease expires by e.g.
switching off the router.

------
m3kw9
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novichok_agent](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novichok_agent)

“ These agents were designed to achieve four objectives:[21][22]

to be undetectable using standard 1970s and 1980s NATO chemical detection
equipment; to defeat NATO chemical protective gear; to be safer to handle; and
to circumvent the Chemical Weapons Convention list of controlled precursors,
classes of chemical and physical form.[23]”

~~~
gonzo41
This is bad. But it was targeted. I worry about how easy it would be for
terrorists to do something very bad with a large quantity of this stuff seeing
it's so easy to move about.

~~~
pps43
It's not easy to obtain or synthesize. Terrorists prefer simpler approaches.

~~~
thursday0987
> Terrorists prefer simpler approaches.

that is a very dangerous assumption to make.

~~~
jamescontrol
Why? It’s likely the reason why we have seen terrorist attacks where people
drive into crowds of people. Cars and trucks is everywhere, its easily
accessible. I would argue that the other way around is the dangerous
assumption, that people will NOT use the easiest accessible means to hurt
other people.

~~~
rumanator
> Why?

Because the goal is reaching the goal, not the process.

Undoubtedly, if s terrorist group has access to this stuff, they won't reject
the idea of using it just because driving a van or yielding a knife might
appear simpler.

We're talking about lines of thinking that planned hijacking three commercial
airplanes simultaneously to fly them into high visibility targets.

How is spreading poison something that's outlandish when compared to that?

And also, arguably this case is already the doing of a terrorist group. I
mean, the end goal obviously was to get opposites to think twice for fear of
risking their lives.

~~~
occamrazor
Bin Laden’s Al Qaida was very unusual in its long term planning. Most
terrorist attacks by other groups have been unsophisticated.

~~~
ardy42
> Bin Laden’s Al Qaida was very unusual in its long term planning. Most
> terrorist attacks by other groups have been unsophisticated.

And, IIRC, most recent terrorist attacks have been committed by isolated
individuals who radicalized, and they only used means that a motivated regular
person could assemble. They didn't have the material backing of any
organization sophisticated enough to manufacture a military nerve agent.

Though, I suppose if a specialist like a chemist got radicalized, then we
might have a lone-wolf attack with a sophisticated poison.

~~~
anonAndOn
It has happened in the past. Japan had a sarin attack[0] and the US had the
anthrax attacks[1].

[0][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleph_(Japanese_cult)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleph_\(Japanese_cult\))
[1][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_anthrax_attacks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_anthrax_attacks)

------
caiobegotti
I'm just eager for some international stability as the next person and I don't
want the Cold War back (and I'd hope for a more Europe'zed world to be honest)
but it's incredible how much reach of Russia and China tentacles the US allows
these days. As a third-world citizen I'm very much surprised the US is
basically on its knees hoping the two nations don't punch too hard.

~~~
nickpp
After complaining for years that the USA was the world's cop, now we get to
see how the world looks like without that cop. Not pretty.

~~~
caiobegotti
I grew up under this rhetoric for those years you mention and I still think
having a kind of Team America: World Police in real life is much worse and I
don't want that back. But these are not mutually exclusive issues because
super powers are supposed to balance each other out like the system of
balances and checks with independent powers of a democracy. I like to think
the world is on average a big democracy and no single super power should be
its cop but China and Russia pretty much represent a joint state of affairs
that is detrimental to every freaking human being. To see the US on its kees
like I said is pretty depressing to the balances and checks expectations we
all used to have.

------
billiam
If it was in his tea he never would have made it on the plane. The inventor of
Novichok pointed this out and said it was likely applied to his skin.

~~~
hkai
In the case of the Skripals, the effects were slower than that, seems to be
around three hours, from quick googling.

------
itroot
Guy from Russia here. Not an expert, but I feel the pain when my country looks
so negative in the news.

First, I wish Alexey fast recovery.

Second, Alexey wasn't a popular politic figure in past time, I believe that
his peak of popularity was in 2013-2015.

Third, I think no one here is actually benefiting from this tragic event...
the whole story just seems quite strange. Frankly, there a lot of more simple
approaches that can kill a man - no need to use sophisticated things like
chemical weapons (which actually doesn't work as intended).

I hope that this story will be more clear pretty soon.

~~~
lightgreen
> I feel the pain when my country looks so negative in the news.

I'm from Russia, and I feel pain when people mix my country and my my country
corrupt and criminal government.

~~~
tanyatik
> I'm from Russia, and I feel pain when people mix my country and my my
> country corrupt and criminal government

+1000 - it often feels that people geniunely don't see any difference.

~~~
lazyjones
Strange when it often comes from people who, when asked about their own
country, have the same opinion about it.

------
nafizh
There will never be a power vacuum in world politics. If it’s not going to be
US, it’s going to be China and/or Russia. I have been thinking quite a lot how
will that world look. Will it be better or worse?

~~~
nostromo
Russia’s economy is smaller than Canada’s and per capita it’s citizens are
poorer than Poles.

Russia is not a world power and hasn’t been for a while.

~~~
glogla
They still have nuclear weapons. And they have enough propaganda / hybrid war
capability to get Trump elected. Maybe not a world superpower but dangerous
nonetheless.

I'm more interested in why Russia still tries to continue Cold War and fight
the West. Contrary to what many Russians believe (or at least what they write
online), West is not out to get them - other than to sell them shitty products
made in China with crazy markup and make them watch internet ads.

Meanwhile China is slowly taking over Siberia with all the mineral and
material goodies and they aren't doing anything about that.

Almost like it's more about pretending than about actual power.

~~~
mikelyons
What do you think about the idea that it's all about Putin's revenge on USA
for the attempted assassination?

~~~
AnimalMuppet
Um, what attempted assassination?

I think what's really going on is the usual. If you're stealing your country
blind, manufacture foreign enemies and blame them, so the people at home think
you're a hero instead of a villain.

~~~
mikelyons
I was wrong about attempted assassination, was thinking of Bush's:
[https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/clinton-
punishes...](https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/clinton-punishes-
iraq-for-plot-to-kill-bush)

------
site-packages1
What's going on here with all the new accounts and dead comments?

~~~
non-entity
Its actually not all that uncommon on controversial threads. I personally
don't beleive its bots as much as people who create new accounts so they can
break the "flamewar rule"

~~~
ajhurliman
Is there much of a difference between programming a bot to spew propaganda and
paying a person to spew propaganda?

------
ibobev
I'm not a chemist but it seems that Novichok is the poison with the worst
track record. It was claimed that this is extremely dangerous military grade
neuro agent, but currently from six people claimed to be poisoned with it only
one died.

I'm starting to wonder why the Russian secret services blamed using it against
political opponents, try it again and again. It is completely possible that
they want not to kill, but just to intimidate, but also it is completely
possible that the "Novichok" is just a propaganda weapon of the West.

~~~
lightgreen
> six people claimed to be poisoned with it only one died

We don't know how many people were poisoned and died, and death was attributed
to natural causes.

Novichok agent is not something easily detectable.

In particular, in Skripal case, it was an accident that his daughter was
visiting him, and they both found unconscious on the bench. Otherwise, it
would be a cardiac arrest of 66 yo man, hard life, it happens, nothing
unexpected.

------
sneak
This is the second time they've done this, IIRC.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Skripal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Skripal)

It's pretty much the ultimate flex, no? "We can kill anyone we want in any
country, and you can't do shit about it."

~~~
baybal2
Not second, but very likely few dozenth or more. There were at least a dozen
of high profile people in Russia who died under equally bizarre circumstances,
with Kivilidi being the best known.

~~~
tin7in
Another similar case in Bulgaria from 2015 when Russian agents are blamed for
the poisoning. It was reported that the Berlin hospital inquired details about
this case last week.

[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/18/i-almost-
died-...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/18/i-almost-died-arms-
dealers-poisoning-may-be-linked-to-skripals)

------
amai
I wonder if
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_29155](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_29155)
is also behind this assassination attempt. But until now they used to work
only outside of Russia (Skripal, Gebrev, ...).

------
fghtr
I recommend lecture by economist Dr. Sergei Guriev about how Putin s autocracy
works. Most of the material is explained in the first 10 minutes, then come
the examples. Based on actual research papers.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z66N_oKbs0k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z66N_oKbs0k)

------
hansdieter1337
Conspiracy theory: The US did it to piss of the EU against Russia. I strongly
disbelieve that the Kremlin is that stupid. There are way easier ways to kill
someone without leaving a big red sign like an UDSSR poison. Ofc I don’t have
any proof, but that’s why they call it a conspiracy theory, right? :)

------
scottlocklin
There was reasonable reason to believe Berezovsky was responsible for the
Litvinenko poisoning; it's not inconceivable something like that is going on
here with some other oligarch Nalvany pissed off; he is a corruption reformer
more than anything else. Since the BBC is a propaganda organ rather than a
news service, they are singularly unlikely to present us with any of the other
potential candidates, but I could probably think of a few that Nalvany might
have annoyed.

It's also kind of weird they'd use such an apparently ineffective poison when
prussic acid or ricin (or car accidents) would do the work rather more
reliably. Novichunk didn't work on the Skripals either. Where are the Skripals
anyway?

Whatever happened: one thing is for certain: Western media, the BBC in
particular is an enormous basket of fail in reporting on anything out of
Russia. No shortage of numskulls who have never actually visited the place or
talked to any of its people who seem really sure of themselves though.

~~~
lightgreen
> There was reasonable reason to believe Berezovsky was responsible for the
> Litvinenko poisoning

No there were no reasons to believe Berezovsky poisoned Litvinenko.

Litvinenko was the one who revealed attempt to kill Berezovsky.

Berezovsky and Litvinenko worked together against Putin.

There was no motive for Berezovsky to kill Litvinenko. In addition to that:

Berezovsky was far less powerful when Litvinenko was poisoned. Obtaining
polonium was not trivial for Berezovsky.

And finally, UK police found who poisoned Litvinenko, it was Andrei Lugovoi
who is currently a member of parliament in Russia. There are no connections
between Lugovoi and Berezovski, but obviuosly there are connections between
Lugovoi and Russian government. In fact, Lugovoi was given a medal for
"serving the fatherland" some time after the poisoning.

No, Berezovsky did not poison Litvinenko, and you are spreading conspiracy
theories.

~~~
scottlocklin
Yeah thanks a lot for the completely citation and content free comment, Mr
77th brigade or whoever you are.

The evidence: Litvinenko and Berezovsky had a falling out, and Litvineko's
newest scheme was to run blackmail on various russian oligarchs, possibly
including Berezovsky[0]. Berezovsky was no angel and is well, nobody ever
proved it, but was strongly suspected to have assassinated an unauthorized
biographer[1] (whose book "Godfather of the Kremlin" everyone should read to
understand recent Russian history). Lots of people besides me have suggested
as much. [2] Berezovsky certainly attempted to use the Litvineko death to his
propaganda advantage; he could as easily have done it himself, or suggested
such actions might be useful to some other oligarch in Litvineko's sights.

I'm well aware of who British propaganda and Litvinenko blamed: I just don't
uncritically accept these assertions. The possibility is certainly there that
the standard assertion here is baloney, just as the possibility the Novichok
tale is not entirely accurate. Western media blames Putin and "the Russians"
for everything from Donald Trump to when the foam goes flat in their coffee;
if Russian intelligence were so all fired competent, you'd think they'd have
been able to take over America, steal some of its industries or like do some
obvious projections of power that I don't need Rachel Maddow tier conspiracy
theories to believe. Or at least, you know, conquer Kharkiv or something.

[0][https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/dec/03/russia.world](https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/dec/03/russia.world)

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Klebnikov](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Klebnikov)

[2] [https://original.antiwar.com/justin/2010/12/13/wikileaks-
con...](https://original.antiwar.com/justin/2010/12/13/wikileaks-conjures-
litvinenkos-ghost-2/)

[http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2006/12/04/alexander-
litv...](http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2006/12/04/alexander-litvinenko-
blackmailer-smuggler-gangster-extraordinaire/)

------
tkubacki
Worth noticing - literally _every_ single of Putin's potential serious
opposite candidates dies before elections in suspicious circumstances

~~~
danpalmer
That's not quite true. One got put in prison for "fraud".

------
alkyon
Tsars may be long dead, but the methods haven't changed much.

------
arodyginc
The article mentions Novichok being produced in Soviet Union in the 80-s,
whats more interesting, it's still manufactured in Czech Republic, at least
until recently:

[https://www.euronews.com/2018/05/03/novichok-type-nerve-
agen...](https://www.euronews.com/2018/05/03/novichok-type-nerve-agent-
produced-in-czech-republic-last-year-)

~~~
ardy42
The wiki article seems to give more context about that:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novichok_agent](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novichok_agent):

> Novichok has, however, been known to most western secret services since the
> 1990s,[16] and in 2016 Iranian chemists synthesised five Novichok agents for
> analysis and produced detailed mass spectral data which was added to the
> Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons Central Analytical
> Database.[17][18] Previously, there had been no detailed descriptions of
> their spectral properties in open scientific literature.[17][19] A small
> amount of agent A-230 was also claimed to have been synthesised in the Czech
> Republic in 2017 for the purpose of obtaining analytical data to help defend
> against these novel toxic compounds.[20]

------
asdfasgasdgasdg
This guy has gotta be one of the bravest and most principled people out there.
Almost anyone else would have determined that fighting this fight has no
practical utility, since nothing short of a massive popular uprising could
unseat Putin at this point, and Russians apparently have no appetite for such
an uprising today. Hard enough to risk your life for something that might have
a good outcome. To me, it's almost impossible to imagine risking my life for
an effort I knew was doomed to failure.

~~~
dcow
Anyone with such a cynical attitude like yours is inevitably doomed to
failure. I’m not picking on you, specifically, just pointing out why these
powers can hold such a firm grasp. Hope is really scarce these days.

~~~
ghostwriter
You can talk the talk, but walking the walk is a different story. The OP was
referring specifically to the latter - that Navalny indeed is one of the
bravest, and that most people lose all their enthusiasm to object as soon as
they or their loved ones are put a gun to their head (both literally and
figuratively speaking). It's not cynical to observe and note this fact of life
in an authoritarian state, it's simply being honest with themselves.

------
trhway
Putin regime wants to make sure that Belarus fire wouldn't spread to Russia,
and thus the timing of the message that they sent to whatever little
opposition still exists in Russia.

I mean the chances of actual popular uprising in Russia in near future is nil,
yet Belarus can definitely embolden and make the opposition bigger, thus
basically reverting the effects of all the opposition squashing Putin's
efforts probably back to the 2012 state and making it a serious PITA for
Putin.

~~~
SomeoneFromCA
Success in Belarus would embolden opposition in the Central Asia though, yet
another group of Russian allies.

------
thelastname
But why would them choose Novichok? They are the only one having binary nerve
gas, there is no possible deniability.

~~~
relaxing
They want it known who did it. Because it sends a message to others.

------
tim333
I've been sidetracked reading about why the Russians are into poisoning
people. Some of it seems to go back to SMERSH which as well as being James
Bond's nemesis was a real organisation set up by Stalin as "an organised
“liquidation” programme intended to eliminate Stalin’s opponents" as well as
Nazi collaborators.

After the war it continued under different names and for example:

>One failed attempt was on the life of Lisa Stein, a radio broadcaster in West
Germany who in March 1955 only narrowly survived a dose of the lethal toxin
scopolamine concealed in a box of chocolates

And I guess maybe the tradition continues. [https://www.thearticle.com/the-
kremlins-long-reach](https://www.thearticle.com/the-kremlins-long-reach)

------
dvionoth
cant say im surprised honestly. as sad as it is, Messing with Putin himself
rarely leads to a positive outcome.

~~~
arcticbull
The man is ex-KGB, installed himself in power for life and somehow his critics
have a way of getting killed or tripping on some soviet nerve agents.

~~~
RustyBucket
Merkel of Germany has been chancellor since 2005 (15 years) Putin has been
president since 2000 with 4 years break (16 years).

So technically he is not THAT bad in comparison.

~~~
ffdjjjffjj
German elections are considerably more legitimate. For one, opposition
politicians aren’t poisoned.

------
YarickR2
Where are those toxicology results ?

------
nomadnomad
Putin's approval rating is actually pretty high even when measured by NGOs
sponsored by the "West". You'll be surprised, but it is quoted to be 60% in
July 2020. [1]

And while it is possible to blame Putin for this Navalny's incident, he isn't
the only one with motive/opportunity. It is actually very sad that some HN
readers sometimes have a strong tendency to blame Trump/Putin/Another for
Everything. I get that they are very unpopular figures among
liberals/progressives, but let's at least try to pretend to be more objective
for a minute. How about maybe for a second or a little longer just think about
it before proclaiming that clearly it's Putin? How about being maybe a little
bit more self-critical for a minute? Maybe you don't have all the information
and all the facts yet? Or maybe some facts aren't facts yet, and maybe there
is a massive propaganda campaign (BBC/CNN/etc.)?

In my opinion, there is an alternate hypothesis. Putin is trying to finish
building the last 6 km of the gas pipeline to Germany. It has been blocked by
US sanctions for a long time. This incident adds fuel to the fire, and
conveniently allows the US to impose more sanctions, and bend Germans (who
actually want that pipeline because it is beneficial for Germany) to their
will.

[1][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_image_of_Vladimir_Putin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_image_of_Vladimir_Putin)

~~~
BrianOnHN
> allows the US to impose more sanctions

Trump has done nothing but cater to Russia, which has been discussed at
length. Lookup Russian bounties on us soldiers.

And whatever doubt-sowing your attempting can easily be disregarded by Occam's
Razor
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor)

------
rosywoozlechan
I wouldn't be so quick to point the finger at Putin or a government conspiracy
personally. There are a lot of powerful billionaires in Russia who exist
thanks to Putin and it seems plausible that one of them, given their vested
interest in keeping their patron in charge, might have poisoned the man.

~~~
siliconvalley1
And that billionaire just happens to have access to a Russian Military
Chemical Weapon?

~~~
lazyjones
You may have missed that the elusive WireCard CEO Jan Marsalek had the formula
too. It's not a huge secret that random billionaires can't buy. Some people
apparently believe the spin from some low-quality media that using or accusing
of using Novitchok is basically proof Russia did it. It says more about their
naivety than anything else.

[https://www.ft.com/content/941a9a2e-88df-4a66-9b3c-670bb7eb4...](https://www.ft.com/content/941a9a2e-88df-4a66-9b3c-670bb7eb4d87)

~~~
mikeyouse
Having the "formula" for a chemical weapon in no way grants you the ability to
manufacture it.

~~~
1MachineElf
True. You need a facility equipped and capable of producing Novichok. Think of
Porton Down, for example. Conveniently located just miles away from Salisbury.

~~~
mikeyouse
Lol. The GRU agents who poisoned Skripal literally gave an interview where
they claimed to be everyday Russian tourists before their IDs were blown.

Perhaps there's an innocent explanation why three GRU agents traveled to
Salisbury multiple times, including the day that Skripal was poisoned but lied
about their reason for being there, their identities, and their connection to
the Russian military?

[https://www.dw.com/en/second-skripal-poisoning-suspect-
ident...](https://www.dw.com/en/second-skripal-poisoning-suspect-identified-
by-bellingcat/a-45805760)

------
vernie
Good luck with this one dang

~~~
dang
Hey could you please stop posting flamebait and unsubstantive comments? We're
trying to be somewhat different than that here, with the crazy idea of staving
off internet heat death for as long as possible. Like any other entropy-
defying strategy that takes a lot of energy.

[https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...](https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20stave&sort=byDate&type=comment)

------
chinhodado
Maybe I'm too skeptical, but this seems a bit too obvious to me. Why would you
try to poison someone with no real threat to you and risk him becoming a
martyr, using a method that immediately brings you to mind, with a nerve agent
that is also strongly linked to you?

~~~
gruez
Didn't they poison some guy with radioactive isotopes a few years back? I
don't think they care about it being attributed to them, or think that being
attributed to them has positive _value_.

~~~
austinjp
That was Alexander Litvinenko.

[https://www.google.com/search?q=alexander+litvinenko](https://www.google.com/search?q=alexander+litvinenko)

~~~
brippalcharrid
I recall that the [very small] quantity of Polonium-210 involved had a market
value of $20 Million and was tied directly back to the state atomic agency
requiring the personal authorisation of the Commander-in-Chief. So a rather
extravagant and blatant way of dispatching someone (with curiously bungling
assassins).

------
lazyjones
As far as I'm concerned, the Germans are about as trustworthy as Russia. They
are currently closing the investigation around the Breitscheidplatz[1] terror
attack, which has uncovered massive tampering with evidence and more open
questions than answers. And let's not forget their history of false flag
attacks.[2]

Most of you will likely disagree, based on their current public image vs.
Russia's, but ask yourselves what the known facts are.

[1][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Berlin_truck_attack](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Berlin_truck_attack)

[2][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celle_Hole](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celle_Hole)

~~~
osipov
It is remarkable that Germans for the most part are unwilling to look for
signs of corruption in their government. I recall the conversations that I've
had with regular German working stiffs around 2012-2014, chatting about the
new Berlin Airport and how that showed symptoms of government corruption. The
good folks of Germany started admitting to the possibility of corruption only
when the media in Germany began to investigate the situation and uncover
problems.

~~~
odiroot
Brandenburg airport, Wirecard, gas deals with Russia, diesel emissions scandal
and probably much more of these high-profile cases I cannot even recall now.

Indeed, there have to be systemic issues.

