
 Tor developer dodges FBI, leaves US - benevol
http://money.cnn.com/2016/05/17/technology/tor-developer-fbi/
======
oneloop
What's wrong with this country, that nowadays people are so afraid of being
disappeared that they run away to Russia, Ecuador, and Germany. We're doing
something wrong.

~~~
nickpsecurity
What's wrong with her you mean? The type of people affected by rendition or
hit teams are a rare breed. Ultra-rare. The typical method is arresting,
optionally a high bail, plea offer, and then rough time in court. If
convicted, you're in a prison where you usually get to at least talk to
outsiders and maybe get out early for good behavior.

Quite the opposite of people disappearing you. Now that she's in Europe, the
CIA's jurisdiction, she's at greater risk of this happening in form of thug
violence against Americans, tourists, whatevet. I'm guessing that's uncommon
to rare step, too, so dont know risk level

~~~
woodman
> Now that she's in Europe, the CIA's jurisdiction, she's at greater risk...

History has shown that geographic location is no protection from the CIA.
MKULTRA being a clear example of obviously illegal activity. But I really
doubt that the CIA would be interested in a TOR developer, that is NSA
territory. While the NSA has a much less colorful history, they do burgle when
they feel they need to.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_the_United_S...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_the_United_States)

~~~
Pica_soO
The only thing protecting you from the CIA are nukes. So what you need as a
hacker is some really good zero-days and some excellent viruses - leashed to
your survival. If that would be done by a lot of people, backing each other
up, keeping the digital backbone of society as hostage, something like a
justice system could be restored.

~~~
woodman
Or go with the more direct route, ala Snow Crash, and drive around with a
nuclear motorcycle sidecar.

------
gumby
Again, let's not forget that the US government explicitly funded development
of TOR:
[https://www.torproject.org/about/sponsors.html.en](https://www.torproject.org/about/sponsors.html.en)
and [https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jul/29/us-
govern...](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jul/29/us-government-
funding-tor-18m-onion-router) (and many more) as a way of helping people avoid
the depredations of oppressive governments.

~~~
thephyber
Let's also not forget that the US government employs well over 1 million
employees and several million contractors. They don't all move in the same
direction or have a hive mind.

The Department of the Navy developed the original Tor.

The State Department helped fund it (because it can be used by dissidents in
countries with authoritarian governments).

The US intelligence apparatus has allegedly funded ways to analyze and/or
sabotage anonymous usage of Tor.

~~~
awqrre
Are the Department of the Navy and the State Department still funding it or
did they came to their "senses"?

------
chagas
A thing one should clearly understand, if the FBI is looking to "talk" to
someone in this manner, it is because they ALREADY have the warrant in the
'oven' and ready to go. They are simply attempting to chat to SIMPLIFY their
work in hopes the subject of the warrant voluntarily or inadvertently
incriminate oneself.

~~~
nickpsecurity
That's exactly what they're doing. Worse, fleeing after a visit make average
jury think she's guilty.

~~~
chagas
Worrying about the jury should be the least of her concerns at this point. If
she does not have the resources (millions) to mount a vigorous defence it does
not matter. And even if she does have the money, the prosecution will try to
take it away from her via asset freezes, large bails, etc. Awhile in jail, she
won't be able to work effectively with limited phone calls and monitored
attorney visits.

~~~
nickpsecurity
Juries are a double-edged sword: they can be the end of you or your only hope.
Plenty of people go free in trials despite odds against them. Certain things
you do upon encountering the police can greatly increase or decrease your odds
of winning in court. It's imperative to behave in a way that minimizes risk
immediately and long-term. Fleeing a country when a cop merely asks you to
talk to them will look guilty to almost every judge or jury out there. There's
a small subset you can convince given circumstances but this is a big no-no in
general.

Regarding the rest, that might happen, it might not happen, and yet people
still get off with decent attorneys. Again, police investigations involve lots
of probability. You play the odds to your benefit. If you're worried about
that stuff, then leave America for some country that has no problems in its
judicial proceedings plus whatever freedoms and economic opportunities you
need. Do it _now_. Don't wait till a FBI agent is interested in you or you're
on their List.

------
trhway
It took Apple, a multi-hundred-billion dollar corp., all its legal force to
fight against being forced by FBI to crack the phone. A person being forced to
do similar stuff (like backdooring Tor for example) by way of NSL wouldn't
probably be able even to involve his/her lawyer.

------
ianleeclark
I remember reading another article on HN a few weeks ago (maybe, time flies)
where she was planning to go to Berlin. Feels disingenuous for CNN to state
she was dodging the FBI if she's been planning to go there.

~~~
twblalock
The quote from the developer, in the article, makes it look like she left to
avoid dealing with the FBI:

> "I was worried they'd ask me to do something that hurts innocent people --
> and prevent me from telling people it's happening," she said in an exclusive
> interview with CNNMoney.

This is also fairly convincing:

> Lovecruft had intended to move to Germany someday, but she put those plans
> on overdrive. She booked a flight to Berlin that weekend, including a return
> flight she had no intention of taking -- just to avoid raising suspicions.

~~~
thephyber
From the top of her original article:

> I had already been in the process of moving, permanently, to Germany, and
> had retained a German immigrations lawyer several months prior to these
> events. [1]

It's not like she just impulsively thought about Germany and left that week.
Yes, it was a catalyst, but it seems to me that she was already on the fence,
ready to leave. She even said she was waiting for her visa approval to be
accepted after the FBI had made a request to interview her.

[1] [https://blog.patternsinthevoid.net/fbi-
harassment.html](https://blog.patternsinthevoid.net/fbi-harassment.html)

~~~
twblalock
It has been established that she had already been considering a move to
Germany. That is not at issue here. The issue is whether or not she timed her
departure to avoid contact with the FBI. If she did, the article's premise is
justifiable.

She bought a return ticket she did not intend to use, to throw the FBI off her
trail. She would not have done that if not to avoid the FBI. Given this, and
her own statements in the CNN article, the evidence that she timed her
departure to avoid contact with the FBI is overwhelming.

------
ChemicalWarfare
Highly doubt she'd be escaping FBI in Germany. If SHTF and there's an actual
federal warrant issued she'll get extradited back to the US of A in a hurry.
At that point she could of course try escaping to Russia for example but
that's a whole another can of worms altogether.

From what I read in the news the EU is tightening their borders quite a bit
and is reinstating intra-EU border control to deal with the refugee crisis so
that won't help either.

------
nickpsecurity
Ok, tired from work, but on a laptop finally. Here's a try at an assessment of
the situation tying it all together.

Ok, Tor's success & team's safety is often brought up in NSA, FBI, & so on
discussions but shouldn't be. It's exceptional. It was created to protect
military comms. CIA-connected and State Dept found great use for it. Plenty of
support from powerful groups just as much as opposition from NSA and FBI.
Harder to attack legally as crypto-export exempts apps for resisting
censorship, it's non-profit, and source is out there. Technically, it will
stop opponents government fans use it against but often fail in reality
against NSA or FBI. Potentially. Concept is called NOBUS and they like those
things. So, Tor is exceptional in the sense that it's unlikely to get strong,
legal or technical attack... destructive attack... by U.S. government's
scariest. Less, but some, risk for its developers as well.

Another background is U.S. legal system. Ours is an adversarial system where
anything you say to cops can be ignored or used against you as highest form of
eyewitness testimony (confession) for conviction. What you say that assures
innocence is hearsay and tossed out. Feds and prosecutors can use any number
of lies and scams... including fake jobs or deals... to trick you into
confession. The result is that around 97% never make it to trial: plea
bargained as they appear to have no hope of winning. Prosecutors especially
like to make severe examples out of hackers with Aaron Schwartz a recent
example. Defense attorneys advice: never talk to the police or consent to
searchers. Repeatedly ask for lawyer.

So, we have a woman... idk her so going by the article... that works on Tor
project or software. Implies she might be a hacker or possess such skills. An
organization that absolutely hates hackers, activists, and Tor contacts her
needing help. She and her lawyer agree to meet them to see what's up but they
want her alone. They try to contact her directly despite her insistence on a
lawyer. At this point, it's either a legitimate request for assistance on a
case or they're building a case against her while trying for an early
confession or strong evidence using a common tactic. She can't know since they
won't tell her. And can legally lie.

She decided to flee to Germany. They'll at least have to present some evidence
to get her extradited. She feels she might avoid the NSL's or any forced
backdoors over in Germany. She was also going to go over there anyway. So,
that's her decision.

Now, it might be a bad idea. One, if FBI's interest was good or small bad, her
running to another country just put her on a bad list they keep. Two, running
when cops show up indicates guilt to many judges and juries. Three, any
protections she has if FBI or NSA target her within American jurisdiction
disappeared the moment she left. She can now be targeted by German
authorities, NSA, CIA, and Army. It's unlikely outside of electronic
eavesdropping or extradition given what I said about Tor being special. So,
likely outcomes are that they'll ignore her or we'll find out what they're
wanting with higher odds of conviction if it's a charge since she fled.

That's the situation as I see it after studying these organizations for a long
time. I'm also operating with very limited information about her and her
situation. So, I only have so much confidence in the conclusions.

------
supergirl
what's the point of going to Germany; might as well have stayed and faced the
music. Germany would extradite her immediately. seriously, FBI probably has
offices there.

~~~
thephyber
> stayed and faced the music

What "faced the music"? That idiom implies she did something wrong. She's
fearful of gagged coersion, not necessarily of being charged with a crime.

All she has to do is stop contributing to the Tor Project if she is coerced,
but apparently she is more interested in moving to a country that has values
more closely aligned with the Tor Project. Yes, the German government could
potentially use similar coercive means, the CIA could do it while she is in
Germany, or the US judicial system could extradite her (but AFAIK that would
require charges being brought).

~~~
supergirl
I was being sarcastic with "faced the music", sir

~~~
dTal
You seem to have paid for it in downvotes. People are really sensitive to that
phrase after it became a political sound bite regarding Snowden.

~~~
supergirl
I see. I didn't know it's associated with Snowden.

~~~
woodman
FYI:

"He stole very important information that has fallen into the wrong hands so I
think he should not be brought home without facing the music." \--Hillary
Clinton

[http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/13/clinton-
sande...](http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/13/clinton-sanders-
snowden-nsa-democratic-debate)

~~~
dTal
It became something of a meme.

John Kerry: "Edward Snowden is a coward, he is a traitor and he has betrayed
his country, and if he wants to come home tomorrow to face the music, he can
do so"

Nancy Pelosi: "I think he should come back and face the music for what he did
… [but] the music shouldn’t be the death penalty or life in prison."

All Democrats, I notice.

~~~
woodman
Well few statists like whistleblowers, because they share the Sgt. Barnes
philosophy of "when the machine breaks down, we break down". Republicans
expressing the same sentiments are more likely to be pandering, because the
demonstration of failure on the part of the state is more in line with their
platform.

------
jonnybgood
This is a non-story. Nobody knows what FBI wants. It may actually be for
legitimate reasons or not. It seems before FBI just wanted to ask questions,
but since Isis didn't want to be asked any questions the FBI now went and got
a subpeona. That's it.

~~~
kafkaesq
_Nobody knows that the FBI wants. It may actually be for legitimate reasons or
not._

Which is precisely the point -- Lovecruft, justifiably, had no way of knowing
what the government operatives had in mind, and wanted from her; whether it
was something comparatively insipid and harmless (just some junior
investigators throwing darts, and checking boxes on a list someone gave them);
or something all-out insane and pernicious, like what they did to Swartz.

Would she be woken up at 6 a.m., and made to watch as agents ransacked her
apartment, confiscating anything that looked like personal notes, and anything
that looked like a digital device? Would she be strip-searched, and held in
solitary confinement for hours (even after family and friends posted bail), or
longer, with no explanation? Would she face the prospect of _indefinite_
imprisonment if she refused to disclose the passphrases to any of her
encrypted devices?

Would she be pressured into providing testimony against her friends and
collaborators -- and/or "turning" outright, and becoming a paid informant?
Would she hold her ground? Would she break?

Any of the above was a very real possibility. Which is why this is anything
but a "non-story."

~~~
openasocket
> Would she be strip-searched, and held in solitary confinement for hours
> (even after family and friends posted bail), with no explanation? Would she
> face the prospect of indefinite imprisonment if she refused to disclose the
> passphrases to any of her encrypted devices?

Has the FBI done this before? I could see the CIA doing this to foreign
nationals, and obviously that's horrible, but has the FBI done anything like
that? I'm not saying they haven't, I would just like an example or two.

~~~
franciscop
Yes, it was yesterday on HN but I cannot seem to find it.

~~~
chadcatlett
I suspect you are referring to this post:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11712035](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11712035)

~~~
dTal
Slight nitpick - they're asking him to _enter_ the password, not _disclose_
it. I'm not sure how much difference it makes but the distinction is
specifically mentioned in the article.

