
The shutdown of library.nu - tathagatadg
http://sayamindu.randomink.org/ramblings-reloaded/2012/02/the-shutdown-of-library-nu/
======
ya3r
We here in Iran have an extra problem. I'll explain:

Apple's App store, does not work in Iran, you cannot download anything from
the app store (you get the famous 1009 error). But many people like myself
have iPhones and iPads. Is it okay to pirate iOS apps?

Mathwork's website will not load if you try to access it from an IP address
form Iran. Neither they sell their widely used software (Matlab) in academics
to Iranians. I wonder am I guilty to pirate Matlab?

Also many other services including Paypal, Google's Android Market and Amazon
are the same.

I wonder what if I want to read the famous `Art of Computer Programming`? Am I
guilty if I pirate it?

~~~
muuh-gnu
> I wonder am I guilty to pirate Matlab?

If you otherwise support the concept of intellectual property, you are. If you
believe that Matlab is MathWorks "property", MathWorks is not obliged to sell
you their property, and if you take what you believe is their property against
their will, you are guilty. If you dont believe in intellectual property, then
everything is allright.

~~~
pooriaazimi
The world does not work like that; it's not easy to judge other people's
actions unless you step into their shoes.

I guess if it took you 45 minutes just to send an email, or 3 days to download
Apple's new OS to develop/test on (Mountain Lion - around 4GB), then you
wouldn't see the piracy issue (in countries that there are absolutely no
alternatives) black and white anymore.

~~~
muuh-gnu
I am nut "judging" him. He didnt give enough information to answer his
question. My answer was that whether he should feel guilty or not depends on
whether he supports intellectual property or not. I, for one, do not support
the concept of intellectual property at all. If you ask me, copying Matlab is
perfectly OK.

But if he does support intellectual property, then he should accept the fact
that MathWorks doesnt want to sell to him because he is an Iranian. He can not
both support intellectual property _and_ simply make the excuse to steal
because they refuse to sell. If that worked, he could also argue that it is ok
to pirate because they refuse to sell for $5.

~~~
pooriaazimi
Actually it was clear that your post was not _accusational_ , but rather a
genuine question. I didn't mean to respond with a bad tone... sorry about
that.

If MathWorks didn't want to sell something to me (because they don't like the
looks of roots of me), I wouldn't buy it even if my life depended on it (an
ego thing) – the problem here is that MathWorks, Google, Apple, Amazon and
other companies _want_ to sell to me (it's their job, and I don't think they
are any more racist than the average American!), but their it's government
that prevents them.

This is where you and I differ slightly: I support MathWork's IP, but at the
same time I know that they can't sell to me _only_ because of US sanctions. I
copy Matlab (not really - I use Mathematica) and I see no moral dilemma here.

------
okamiueru
The article points out the valid complaint from people who do not have access
to legitimate ways of obtaining books/information, and makes a point of saying
he does not endorse the way library.nu operated.

I'd disagree. We're presented with a technology which is slowly replacing the
institutions we take for granted and made a great improvement on society. I'm
thinking about both libraries and radio.

As Neil Young said, piracy is the new radio. Except that it is better and
easier to access. And library.nu functioned as my library, except that it is
better and easier to access.

If the music I was interested overlapped with the mainstream, then radio would
probably be good, and if the library had the technical books I like, then that
would too. Alas, they don't, and both internet and library.nu are (latter:
were) my substitutions. I've downloaded all the books I've purchased after
graduating a year ago (which is around 5). Even after owning a book, I've
downloaded the same at work and shown it to a colleague, who also ended up
purchasing it. When I look for a book on a topic of interest, I search amazon,
read a few reviews, then download it on library.nu. The decision to buy it is
done after going through the book and see if I like how the author writes, how
the example code is, and especially how it covers my specific topic, before
buying it. Usually, if it is a broad topic, I do this for about 3-5 books, and
decide on which one to buy.

I'm going to go further than the author, and endorse library.nu for all its
worth. Both as a library and for those who cannot afford, or don't have
access. As for the freeloaders, or more precisely the _actual_ losses: I
believe they are small enough that it outweighs the cost. And honestly, if
they _didn't_ , the marked would adapt.

~~~
fbuilesv
_The decision to buy it is done after going through the book and see if I like
how the author writes, how the example code is, and especially how it covers
my specific topic, before buying it_

You're basically saying you'd walk in to a restaurant, have a bite of every
dish and then maybe decide to pay for it.

 _I do this for about 3-5 books, and decide on which one to buy._

Now you walk into three restaurants, eat a bit at every one of them and then
decide to pay for the one you liked the most.

I agree with the original article and I think there are times where piracy is
valid, but let's not think that a valid solution is to pay for what we think
we should pay and nothing else.

~~~
tikhonj
No. What he's saying is that he'd want to listen to a band on the radio or
from a friend before maybe buying their album. Which is completely reasonable.

Drawing parallels between physical property or services and information can be
misleading--the real issue with the restaurant example is the restaurant's
loss in both time and opportunity cost. Since copies of information are not
naturally scarce, this is not an issue. It's really more like he looked at the
food and cooked the same meal at home before coming to the restaurant and
paying.

------
slavak
Can we just agree that it's wrong to do market segmentation for electronic
goods based on geographic location? It's an anachronistic model that has no
justification other than for padding BigCo's(tm) profit margins.

If the big media companies actually cared about piracy they would abandon this
system and see piracy drop significantly overnight. Then again I think we all
know that's just an excuse to try and hang on to the overinflated profits
they're accustomed to for just a little bit longer.

~~~
rythie
With a 8x difference in wages [1] the price of the book in India should surely
be $4 if it is $32 in the U.S. Are suggesting it should be $4 everywhere?
which means it's _still_ cheaper in the U.S. compared to salaries.

[1] see top item on (Sr. Software Engineer...):
<http://www.payscale.com/research/IN/Country=India/Salary> and
[http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Country=United_States/Sa...](http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Country=United_States/Salary)

~~~
guard-of-terra
1) Market can figure it out. At which price would you gross more money? I
guess the answer would be something like $10. Books are overpriced anyway in
the USA, and there's no reason to pay $30 for an ebook.

2) You can still make promo prices for different regions, but the service
should be available everywhere.

~~~
rythie
TBH, $30 and not sell it in India due to the risk of cheap imports. At $10
it's not going to sell 3x as many as at $30 in the U.S.

~~~
guard-of-terra
Okay, but then again: Making conscious choice to not sell in India and then
bitching about piracy in India is immoral.

You can still set the price to $30 but you have to actually sell worldwide to
have any moral grounds against worldwide piracy.

~~~
keithpeter
UK estimated total of University students: just under 2 million (BBC figures,
2009) and shrinking slowly

India estimated total of University students (or at least places): just over
12 million, government policy to increase by factor 2 over by 2025 (BBC 2011
article)

I think you could discount heavily to something close to local wage rates and
still make a handsome profit in India, especially with electronic distribution
reducing the distribution costs.

Does anyone else remember/use the Indian editions? I remember Tata/McGraw Hill
having a series of Indian printed editions of popular texts. Local production
and typesetting, lower price. Some of them even made it to the UK in the
1980s.

------
wisty
IP laws exist to _promote_ publication, not reduce it. If IP owners aren't
publishing in a country, why should that country protect their IP?

Oh, wait, there's an international treaties, and pro-copyright UN organization
administering it. That UN can't ban the execution of children, but can enforce
70 years plus life of the author says a lot about the power of vested
interests.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
Agree with your sentiment but not the underling logic.

 _If IP owners aren't publishing in a country, why should that country protect
their IP_

Property rights don't vaporise automatically due to lack of use, e.g. in India
squatters could, at one time, claim ownership to property after illegally
sitting there for a certain period. This seems wrong to me. On the other end
if Merck or Pfizer were to get pissed off at say Libya and deny its people
certain drugs I would support suspending their property rights.

I agree that this situation is ridiculous and that the black market is often a
solid incentive for legislators to re-consider ridiculous regulation. But the
suspension of property rights is something that should be thought out
meticulously before implementation; in this case it fits into the greater
debate on the nature of IP as a "true" property.

 _Pro-copyright UN organization administering it_

I don't think the UN was actively involved in any of these decisions nor
overtly in their enforcement _any more than it is in other issues_ \- the
author was simply quoting UN statutes to underline how this is an evolving
debate.

~~~
vidarh
> Property rights don't vaporise automatically due to lack of use

IP rights are not property rights. They are a temporary monopoly enacted by
society as a means for more works to enter the public sphere. If the copyright
holders don't exploit their works in a certain country, the bargain is not
upheld.

And some IP rights _do_ vaporize automatically due to lack of use, namely
trademarks.

> in India squatters could, at one time, claim ownership to property after
> illegally sitting there for a certain period. This seems wrong to me.

To me it seems right - property is a scarce resource. If someone does not make
use of it, and lets it sit unclaimed to the point where they don't notice that
someone lives there for quite some time, then why is it in the interest of
society to acknowledge that property claim? But it is irrelevant to the
discussion at hand, exactly because property is a scarce resource - the
arguments that apply to property largely don't apply to copyright.

~~~
jonhendry
"If someone does not make use of it, and lets it sit unclaimed to the point
where they don't notice that someone lives there for quite some time"

Then you get into different people having different ideas of what it means to
"use" something.

A person buys a tract of land and doesn't develop it, because she thinks it
should be a nature reserve. Another person wants to build a golf course there.
Should the second person be able to just waltz in and build a golf course,
because the land isn't being "used"?

Also, in the case of IP, a piece of IP can be "in use" without being publicly
available yet. Consider a book being turned into a movie. That can take years.

------
pooriaazimi
I completely agree.

I would gladly pay $100 for K&R's C Programming Language, but sadly I can't do
that (It's against US export laws to sell to me). Yesterday I spent almost an
hour trying to find an _offset_ copy of Dragon Book (Compilers), but I
couldn't find it (there are none), so I have to bury myself in ebooks on my
iPad (which is not a great experience).

~~~
rmc
_It's against US export laws to sell to me_

Really? How? why?

~~~
slyall
Because they are in Iran

~~~
pooriaazimi
yep.

A few months ago I wanted to buy a Mac app (that wasn't available through Mac
App Store). Obviously I couldn't buy it with credit card, so I offered the
developer $15 iTunes gift credit, but he was afraid to do business with me (it
is illegal, he said) :)

Also, Google Code & SourceForge block Iranian IPs, so it's hard even to
_download_ free stuff!

~~~
plinkplonk
wow! Not being able to _buy_ K&R is tough.

If I may ask, what is the software/hacking scene in Iran really like? Do most
computers use Linux? (And if trading with Iran is illegal how would you buy an
Apple or Dell machine anyway?). Can you have gmail/blogger/twitter accounts or
are US companies forbidden from giving you free accounts? What languages are
popular? Is there a large internal market for software?

Thanks in advance.

~~~
pooriaazimi
> _what is the software/hacking scene in Iran really like?_

For indie developers and those who want to use cutting edge technologies
(think of a web service created on Node.js + MongoDB), pretty grim. People use
those kind of services, but it's hard to make a living making them (because of
lack of widespread payment systems).

But the government invests heavily on software technologies
(security/blocking/MITMing!), and all corporations/big businesses have to rely
on home-made _solutions_ (banks, hospitals, universities) Those areas are
usually dominated by Microsoft technologies (.Net and SQL Server).

> _Do most computers use Linux?_

Absolutely no. It's easy to crack Windows, Photoshop and Microsoft Word! And
many (including myself) don't consider it unethical, as you can't buy them in
any other way (I buy a lot through Mac/iTunes App Store, but mainly to support
fellow developers and not because I consider it more ethical for my
situation).

> _And if trading with Iran is illegal how would you buy an Apple or Dell
> machine anyway?_

I think it's called _black market_ (though I'm not sure if it applies to our
situation or not). What I mean is that a guy buys 25 MacBooks in Hong Kong and
ships them to Iran (they're all registered under his name) and then sells them
_independently_ of Apple, usually with a tasty premium (Apple products are
really popular, but also more expensive than other brands.

> _Can you have gmail/blogger/twitter accounts or are US companies forbidden
> from giving you free accounts?_

You usually can use them, but you can't register from Iran (you have to choose
another country). But in case of most social things it doesn't matter, because
they are blocked by the government anyway. Stuff like sf.net, code.google.com,
and like of Oracle are more problematic; as they block Iranian IPs.

> _What languages are popular?_

C#, ASP.Net, PHP, Java (for businesses). Hackers and hobbyists use whatever
they feel like.

> _Is there a large internal market for software?_

For end users? No. But for corporations and businesses (those I mentioned
above), I don't think it's different than other places.

:)

------
krat0sprakhar
I totally agree with the comment on the OP's blog: "books have basi­cally been
my sin­gu­lar source of invest­ment, more because of the site than in spite of
it." I can't seem to remember how many books I've purchased after downloading
them from library.nu. Being in India, library.nu was a gem when a substantial
number of books aren't available at Rupee prices.

~~~
acqq
I also bought the books which I would never had I not had library.nu. Don't
tell me about the preview in Amazon, for these particular books I had to see
more other pages than "legally" available to make a decision.

I really mourn the loss of library.nu

------
alecco
I buy a lot of books in english. Currently I live in South America. Last book
I bought from Amazon-US (Thinking Fast and Slow) _took 2 months to arrive_.

I love _ebooks_ but those cost almost the same as hardcopy and you _lose the
right to lend or sell_. Also, the quality of the content is usually very
inferior. Recently I did ebook management software so I know the ins and outs.

The _temptation to use unpaid electronic copies_ is bigger than ever.
Specially after noting the higher _management on publishing businesses is
usually in the 55+ age range_ and repeat how they only want to keep the status
quo until they retire.

------
altxwally
I was a big fan of library.nu. As a student in Mexico, you just cannot get
some of the books that were available in there, so it was incredibly useful. I
no longer used the site so much, but I'm still grateful that this site was
live when I went to university. It kind of marvels me how artificial are the
limits that humans put on knowledge that can be useful to others, I hope we
can solve this problem someday.

~~~
xtracto
Not completely true. It is trivial to buy dead-tree books from Amazon.com (US)
and send them to Mexico (books do not pay taxes when entering Mexico). I have
done it for more than 10 years.

The real problem is the cost. Imagine that, if people in the USA, earning it
US dollars think that a text-book ([http://www.amazon.com/Marketing-
Management-14th-Philip-Kotle...](http://www.amazon.com/Marketing-
Management-14th-Philip-Kotler/dp/0132102927/ref=pd_sim_b_1)) costing
USDd$168.72 is crazy. Imagine what people in Mexico (where the average
_yearly_ income is about USD$7,300) , India, China or other development
countries think.

Quite simply, a lot of the people who pirate books are not a market for the
publishers simply because it is impossible to pay.

Are they entitled to get such knowledge for free? legally, they are not.
Morally... it is subjective.

------
rmc
Whenever anyone talks about copyright and piracy they seem to include a sop
"Obviously I'm not against piracy and don't support breaking the law". Why do
they always do that.

I'm in favour of piracy when it's for the greater good.

~~~
prakashk
Perhaps because if they don't, the discussion tends to gravitate towards "you
are breaking the law if you are pirating", instead of focusing on the main
point they are trying to make.

~~~
rmc
I presume that, were they to not say it, that someone could accuse them of
condoning piracy and breaking the law.

------
sireat
This hits closer to home than I thought it would.

Let's leave aside the fact library.nu was illegal under current laws, but for
many books it was the only reasonable option to obtain it.

library.nu offered extreme convenience for those outside of US especially in
the education sector.

When I lived in US, it was quite inexpensive to order physical books. I used
to order older editions of university books for a few bucks each and shipping
was very inexpensive (think Amazon Prime now).

Now in Europe it is quite hard to bargain shop for books. Perhaps anyone have
any tips?

Shopping on Amazon is physically painful, when you see how much you end up
paying for extra costs.

Then there is the matter of buying experience for e-books.

Buying e-books on O'Reilly feels the best out of all current e-book sellers,
you actually feel like an owner of the e-book(even though of course you really
are not).

Still the ideal would be that e-books would be inexpensive to purchase and
that buying a physical book would qualify one for e-book version.

~~~
cturner

        > Shopping on Amazon is physically painful, when you
        > see how much you end up paying for extra costs.
    

That's not my experience. I recently bought a stack of ancient machine code
and assembly books and paid 2p for some, with two pounds of shipping on top of
that. The books are practically free to me.

    
    
        > Buying e-books on O'Reilly feels the best out of all
        > current e-book sellers
    

Nostarch are pretty good. You can go in and download your books when you like
from them. If a book you already own subsequently gets a new electronic format
release, they open up access to that to you automatically.

------
f4stjack
Whenever I read anything about piracy I often think of Gabe Newell's
ubiquitous speech which underlines one single thing: Piracy is a service
problem. And books are not an exception.

~~~
rmc
It is a service problem with a service, not legal, not technical, solution

------
regularfry
It seems to me that, especially with India, there's a big question which
nobody is asking. When foreign companies can't or won't supply the market at a
suitable price, where is the local replacement? Why isn't this being fixed by
local competition? India outpopulates the US four to one - is it credible that
Indian engineers and publishers are somehow incapable of producing output that
is to the same, or better, standard as that from the US at a price more
commensurate with the local market?

~~~
dhruvbird
We do have something called "Indian Low Price Edition"
[http://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22indian+subcontinent%22+%22low+pr...](http://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22indian+subcontinent%22+%22low+price+edition%22)
but not all titles are available for whatever reason. Mostly, these are books
used as texts in schools & colleges.

Another note: An LPE of a book that is available for INR ~500 would cost
anywhere from INR ~4000 to ~6000 if the original publication is ordered.
Generally the original is not stocked so there is a wait period of ~5 weeks
from placing the order.

~~~
regularfry
Sure, but that's imported content again. It's reliant on the foreign
publishers deigning to think it worthwhile. Is the existence of LPEs enough to
prevent the growth of a market in indigenous content?

------
benwerd
Seems like there's an opportunity for some kind of middle ground.

Books are emotive. Why not embrace the community's desire to make titles
available in different markets, but manage it in such a way that the publisher
is involved in the process and has ultimate approval over a digitized version?
Active community members get books for free based on the degree of their
participation. Everyone else gets to buy designated "community editions" of
titles with a proper cut going back to the copyright owner. The community
platform takes enough money to keep itself ticking over, including a cut for
partner services that make it possible to sell in hard-to-reach global
markets.

Sounds crazy, perhaps, but only because publishers still want a one-way
relationship. A deep participative relationship with their global community of
readers would only be a good thing. And it's less crazy for the publishers /
authors than not making any money from these markets at all.

~~~
dmils4
I really think (and hope) open source textbooks are going to solve this. While
it might be difficult for OS books to catch on in places where there are
market pressures from textbook publishers, in the countries this post mentions
where the information just isn't available, there's going to be very little
pushback/meddling. I'm really excited to see what this open source initiatives
can do outside the US.

You might be right about publishers taking a smaller cut and thinking it's
better than nothing- but my guess is that the publishers would rather get no
cut (while shutting down anyone who monetizes by pirating their content) than
let the information be available in places that can't afford it at their
inflated prices (and for other reasons, I'm sure - not trying to oversimplify
the complexities of this market). Publishers are already mad enough that they
don't get their cut everytime Amazon sells a used version of their textbooks.
But this is part of what Apple will solve in their textbook initiatives.

~~~
dhruvbird
Which is why I really like what Zed Shaw is doing and I hope his series
extends to "Learning X The Hard Way", where 'X' can be anything.
<http://learncodethehardway.org/>

------
DTrejo
List of alternatives to library.nu (see first comment):

[http://www.reddit.com/r/trackers/comments/hrgmv/tracker_with...](http://www.reddit.com/r/trackers/comments/hrgmv/tracker_with_pdfsebooks_of_college_textbooks/c1xrq44)

------
chj
Same pain, there is always times that I wanted to buy an old book from amazon,
but told me it is only available in US. Then I always turn to library.nu for
help. Sad it is gone.

The only complaint I have about copyright protection is they should try to
make their work accessible. Otherwise, there will be another library.nu given
time.

------
urza
<http://gen.lib.rus.ec/> <http://en.bookfi.org/>
<http://pastebin.com/LTZfu2DX>

