
Pope pulls speech on Hong Kong freedom, raising questions over Beijing pressure - abc-xyz
https://hk.appledaily.com/us/20200707/3JPO2PWP2UXTHBOUYIKKMLKKUU/
======
digitalcraft
The discrimination the catholic church in China suffers is hardly talked
about. The intimidation by the Chinese state on the church is incredible and
many members have been killed or incarcerated for maintaining the independence
of the church from the Chinese state.

On human terms it makes no sense to continue church operations in china just
like some companies pulling out of china, but the church has not run on those
terms.

For centuries the church and her members in China struggled to maintain their
identity in the face of discrimination, and there has been progress even
though small. I don't think it makes sense to let go of a winning strategy
albeit a slow one given the conditions.

~~~
tibbydudeza
The state sanctioned church "Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association" has only
in 2018 acknowledged that the Vatican can veto the appointment of their
bishops.

I guess he did not want to upset them after this major concession.

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mensetmanusman
This falls into the area of ethics under extortion.

e.g. consider the act of paying a bribe.

Scenario 1: You pay the bribe and make 10x the amount due to faster govt.
processing.

Scenario 2: You pay the bribe to save someones life who will die otherwise.

Paying the bribe in Scenario 1 is immoral and paying in Scenario 2 is moral.

Dealing with China is more akin to Scenario 2.

The Catholic church is the oldest institution in the world, it knows it can
wait.

~~~
onion2k
Given how wealthy and powerful the Catholic church is, and how much the people
who run the church would like it to stay that way, I suspect it's not _just_
Scenario 2.

~~~
mensetmanusman
The Catholic church doesn’t globally pool their wealth.

“ In 2010, the Vatican had an income of $326 million and ran a $13 million
budget surplus, but in 2011 the Vatican ran a $19 million deficit. And while
some of that money obviously went to maintaining church buildings and art,
much of it also went to charitable causes.

Recent re-evaluations of Vatican assets show that the Vatican has
approximately $1 billion in total assets. For comparison, Harvard University’s
endowment is over $30 billion. So, relatively speaking, the Catholic Church is
not really wealthy, and no one blames museums for maintaining their art work
and structures. “

~~~
onion2k
The Vatican owns more than 71,659,919 hectares of land around the world,
mostly in prime areas of cities. A single hectare in London is worth 7 or 8
million dollars alone. Then there's the massive amounts of gold, buildings,
art, etc on top. I can believe the Vatican itself, as in the tiny city state
in Italy, is worth $1bn, but the Catholic Church owns _hundreds of billions_
of dollars worth of assets. If they evaluated it all at just $1bn then they
lied.

~~~
mensetmanusman
The Vatican does not own more than 71 million hectares of land... You might be
confusing the Vatican with the Catholic Church.

~~~
onion2k
_You might be confusing the Vatican with the Catholic Church._

It's a semantic difference that has no real meaning. Every Catholic church
organisation answers to the Vatican. Treating them separately is like treating
Apple, Apple UK, and Apple Ireland separately because no, really, they _are_
different legal entities honest.

------
mytailorisrich
The Vatican and the Chinese government have had an uneasy relationship for a
very long time (dare I say forever) and the Vatican has been working hard to
reach an agreement about the appointment of bishops and other aspects in 2018.

Perhaps they just felt that making such public comments would achieve nothing
apart from undoing that work.

The Catholic Church has been around for almost 2,000 years. I'm sure they know
how to play a long game.

~~~
ponker
The Church knows how to draft behind power. Hong Kong’s is receding, Beijing’s
is burgeoning. No doubt onto whose teat the Church will hungrily latch.

~~~
joshuaissac
>The Church knows how to draft behind power. Hong Kong’s is receding,
Beijing’s is burgeoning. No doubt onto whose teat the Church will hungrily
latch.

If that were the case, the Vatican should have been among the first to switch
recognition from the Republic of China (Taiwan) to the PRC, but instead, it is
the only remaining European state that still maintains full diplomatic
relations with Taiwan.[1]

1\.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Taiwan#Eu...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Taiwan#Europe_\(1_state\))

~~~
ponker
Wow, I was completely wrong. Thanks for the info

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abellerose
Why would China specifically care what the pope has to say? I understand the
pope is the one not expressing anything but why would China even pressure him
in the first place. I thought China was already prohibiting religion from
taking place. So what leverage does China have on the pope?

~~~
starfallg
Catholicism exists and is heavily regulated in China. The CCP (unsurprisingly)
appoints the bisbops.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_in_China](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_in_China)

~~~
k__
_" the Chinese government established the Chinese Patriotic Catholic
Association,[2] which rejects the authority of the Holy See"_

What about Jesus? lol

~~~
raxxorrax
Every Lutheran christian rejects their authority too.

~~~
k__
That's why I find this even funnier.

What is left of the catholic church if you reject the pope?

Protestants

~~~
dragonwriter
> What is left of the catholic church if you reject the pope?

> Protestants

I think you mean “Eastern Orthodox”, as they both were rejecting the primacy
(at least, in the terms Catholics define it) of the Pope long before
Protestants existed _and_ remain closer to the Roman Catholics on most points
_other_ than the primacy of the Pope than Protestants, who reject a lot more
about Catholicism than the role of the Pope.

------
hotz
Disappointing.

------
raxxorrax
Never bet on the church to defend your rights should be a long acquired wisdom
by now.

~~~
ethbro
That's reductive of complex traditions.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asylum_(antiquity)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asylum_\(antiquity\))

~~~
raxxorrax
I meant the church, not christianity. The roman catholic church killed
christians all over Europe if they didn't accept the official doctrine. What
is typical for the church is its behavior to suck up to anyone with influence
or power.

------
peteretep
Like all other multinationals, thirsty enough for access to the Chinese market
it’s willing to look the other way

Edit: ya know, this is probably an excellent idea for the church. Every extra
Chinese Catholic is someone who will likely ultimately accept the Pope’s
authority over the CCP’s, regardless of if there are CCP friendly bishops. Get
a big enough beachhead amongst poor Chinese, and bide their time, and they’re
probably on to something.

~~~
BLKNSLVR
Ironically, exposing the limits of what was claimed to be omnipotence.

~~~
humanrebar
Who's claiming omnipotence? Key Christian figures have been murdered since day
0.

~~~
nix23
>Christian figures have been murdered since day 0

Nah probably more the year 16-26 AD. ;)

------
HenryBemis
To quote the Manic Street Preachers:

"And if you tolerate this, then your children will be next"

And in a more serious note, from "First they came.." [1]. It is about the
cowardice of German intellectuals and certain clergy (including, by his own
admission, Niemöller himself) following the Nazis' rise to power and
subsequent incremental purging of their chosen targets, group after group.:

First they came for the Communists - And I did not speak out - Because I was
not a Communist

Then they came for the Socialists - And I did not speak out - Because I was
not a Socialist

Then they came for the trade unionists - And I did not speak out - Because I
was not a trade unionist

Then they came for the Jews - And I did not speak out - Because I was not a
Jew

Then they came for me - And there was no one left - To speak out for me

[1]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_..](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_..).

~~~
dang
Please keep tedious ideological clichés and boilerplate off HN.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

------
nietzschebrod
I predict some troubles with his next reincarnation.

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LatteLazy
The more pressing issue is that everyone more powerful than the Pope has so
far found themselves impotent in the face of the Chinese threat. Trump,
Merkel, Modi, Putin etc all too weak to act.

~~~
ppf
Trump is un-necessarily provocative towards China, or is weak on China? Which
is it?

~~~
dragonwriter
You can be both unnecessarily provocative and weak in the same domain.
Provocation and effective use of strength aren’t the same thing; just as you
can “speak softly and carry a big stick”, so can you do the opposite.

~~~
ppf
Maybe, but that depends if you think trade action against China, and drawing
attention to the increasing oppression of the citizens of Hong Kong, is
ineffectual. Do you have any proposals?

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newbie578
I guess freedom truly has a price. Good to know... The world needs people like
Muhammad Ali who were willing to risk financial gain for justice. The current
world is full of celebrity hypocrites, e.g. Lebron James, Kaepernick, Steve
Kerr, Merkel, Trump, and now even the Pope...

------
m0zg
Such a transparent scam. It's like Disney removing black actor in the Chinese
Star Wars poster, while lecturing the US audience on racial justice:
[https://www.cnn.com/2015/12/08/asia/star-wars-china-
racist-p...](https://www.cnn.com/2015/12/08/asia/star-wars-china-racist-
poster/index.html), or LeBron James carrying water for the Chinese when
discussing Hong Kong.

