
This Is What Your Unsolicited Advice Sounds Like - bmcn2020
https://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/this-is-what-your-unsolicited-advice-sounds-like
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roflc0ptic
There’s this concept called “catastrophizing”, where basically you take
whatever situation you’re in and project it out to worst case, and then feel
anxious because there’s a looming catastrophe. E.g. you and your partner have
a disagreement about housework. This then gets projected to worst case -
they’ll never carry their weight/stop trying to micromanage my behavior, ergo
I don’t know if this relationship can work.

This comic seems aimed at tone-deaf people trying to get others to stop
catastrophizing, and there’s a whole lot to be said for validating others’
experience (life is inescapably and terribly painful) and not trying to cram
zen shit down people’s throats when they’re suffering. It’s not helpful.

In addition to that, unless you’re literally falling off a cliff, falling off
of a cliff is a disempowering metaphor - it’s straight catastrophizing. If
you’re literally and inescapably about to get hit by a semi truck, well. Why
shouldn’t you focus on what you can control? Why not think warm thoughts about
the people you love before you die?

Our brains generate lots of crazy, irrational things when we’re in pain.
That’s inescapable - we don’t really control our thoughts. We do get to
reality test them and choose whether or not to believe those thoughts, though.

~~~
dplgk
Thanks for this explanation. I have a tendency to do this and I'm not sure if
it's from being a programmer, where predicting a cascading effect from a
single decision is very useful... Or if I'm a good programmer because I
already had this tendency. It's not great for relationships.

~~~
TeMPOraL
A similar "programmer tendency" I struggle with that's also not great for
relationships is inventing counterexamples. It's a very powerful tool of
reasoning - for a candidate solution/idea, you quickly come up with some
corner cases and use them to fix the idea or abort it and search for a better
one. But in relationships, it leads to exchanges like:

\- Her: You know, maybe let's start doing X to improve Y?

\- Me: Yeah, that's a good idea! But let's also talk about handling Z because
without it, X will lead to _less_ Y.

\- Her: [confused] Why do you hate my ideas?

\- Me: [confused] What? I just said I think the idea is great, it just needs a
bit more consideration.

And then she's sad, and I'm confused, and X never happens. Despite trying to
phrase my counterexamples in a very constructive way (instead of how we do it
in industry: "but Z!"), they're being perceived as a rejection.

After couple of such I've finally learned to keep track of the corner cases in
my head, accept the idea without the mentioning it, and only then, over time,
bring up the counterexamples so that it's clear these are new problems to be
solved, and not a rejection.

~~~
codemonkey-zeta
Wow this resonates with me so much. I deal with the _exact_ same problem in my
relationship. I've also come to the same conclusion that I simply cannot
discuss the counterexamples in the moment of ideation, because it always
discourages my SO. It's challenging because it's this exact quality that I
feel makes me a strong programmer, and it's extremely difficult to "turn it
off" when other people's feelings are involved.

I do think many people attach emotional value to their ideas, and any
perceived imperfections invalidate the idea as a whole. I don't have any
evidence of this that might generalize, but personally I feel like I (and
potentially many programmers) never attach _any_ emotional value to my ideas,
because if I did then every single bug I face in my code would be a defeat
rather than an opportunity to learn and grow.

~~~
TeMPOraL
> _(and potentially many programmers) never attach _any_ emotional value to my
> ideas_

I do attach _some_ value to my ideas, but I do my best to wait with that until
I've thought about it a bit and scoped out its feasibility. Bugs I don't mind
at all - they're either mistakes (which just happen due to complexity) or
indications of insufficient understanding. What I find a bit discouraging is
discovering, after starting to work on an idea, that it's bad, infeasible or
requires an order of magnitude more work than initially assumed. But I try to
see it as gaining knowledge about problem domain, not defeat.

I suppose I could frame it slightly differently: it's not about not having
emotional attachment, but about not making an idea part of your identity. When
someone points out a flaw in a cool idea you had, you're sad because the cool
thing won't happen. When they point a flaw in _your idea_ , it feels as if
they're pointing a flaw _in you_.

------
codemonkey-zeta
I dislike this attitude. The idea is to convince people that unsolicited
(mental health) advice is pointless and the behavior change the author would
like to see is for people to stop giving these clichéd wisdoms.

But that's not a universal position. Personally I've benefited immensely from
exactly this kind of unsolicited advice, especially at a younger age, and it
really did help me.

What this kind of work suggests is an attitude of, "My problems are so
[explitive] huge that you can't possibly understand so don't even bother
trying to help me". Well maybe you are the unlucky bastard with 6-sigma
problems, but more than likely you're actually an average person with average
problems, and should be grateful for the average words of encouragement
(because that's really what these clichés are, they don't actually care if you
take up yoga, they just want you to know that they're encouraging you) from
your average friends and family.

~~~
Rilfeu
Do you have any example of the advice they gave you that you "benefited
immensely from?". Because I got this kind of advice a million times and it
only made me feel worse.

Also, when this kind of advice came from my family, they were trying to
minimize my problems (so they wouldn't have to do anything to seriously help),
not help me.

~~~
roflc0ptic
One really interesting aspect of empathy is that it seems to have evolved as a
pain avoidance tool - you see someone else burn their hand, see them react by
saying "Ouch!", and you feel a shadow of the pain they're in, and don't make
the same mistake. When we feel too much empathy for people - e.g. someone
we're close to is in pain - often people give advice that is selfish - you're
in pain, and it's hurting me, so while I want to help, what I'm really doing
is trying to minimize my own suffering by (often inadvertently) minimizing
yours. Helping other people is _hard_ , both because we often don't know what
to do, and because even our best intentions can get distorted by our ape
brains.

And to be clear, the advice in the comic is bad advice when it's given in
those contexts. For _good_ advice that's shaped kind of the same way, I'd
suggest reading "Peace is Every Step" by Thich Naht Hanh - lmk and I can send
you a copy (It's on libgen). Alternatively, reading the stoics (as someone
else suggested in this thread) would be a good place to start.

~~~
Rilfeu
The core of my beliefs is stoicism, although I never looked into their
original works, my therapist told me that what he taught me is stoicism.

I basically make peace with the fact that hardships in life are unavoidable.

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4ad
No, this is what bad advice looks like, solicited or not.

Good advice is rare, and in my experience unsolicited advice is neither higher
nor lower quality than solicited advice. This is of course anecdotal.

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dougmwne
I feel like the advice (ahem) to not give unsolicited advice is mostly
relevant to the workplace. That's the situation when often the most savvy move
is to disengage from a person who doesn't "get it" and look to how you can
protect yourself. Selfishly speaking, giving advice at work can go bad for you
several ways. Maybe they hear your advice, but now you're getting involved and
taking responsibility for a sinking situation that might not be your problem
to deal with. Maybe they bristle at being told what to do and you damage the
relationship without actually helping. Maybe there is a personal component to
the situation (one that you, a coworker will never get to learn about) and
your advice will come off as incredibly tone deaf and clueless. Maybe it's in
your interest to let your competition fail so you look all the better. And for
the record, while I think this is a common attitude, I will always be grateful
for advice at work and will put myself at political risk if I think I can
really help another person. Life is too short to treat others like shit.

In the personal world where we love our family and our friends, you're damn
right I'm going to give advice. And if we have to get angry at each other,
talk past each other until we come to a better understanding of each others
point of views, well that's the mess and the beauty of real human connection.

I'll end with an example. Someone in my boss's professional circle once had
breath that smelled like poop. Everyone talked about this person behind their
back, made litte gagging noises and mean jokes. No one ever said anything,
because it's safest not to get involved. My boss got the guy's home address
and wrote an anonymous letter. Said, very nicely, that people can notice and
while maybe this person was already aware or had tried everything, a doctor's
appointment could be in order to talk over options or diet changes if they
hadn't already. And you know what? From then onwards, that person had good
breath.

This is a cold and terrible world if we don't take care of each other.

------
zenincognito
The drowning person really hit home for me. This is what most blog posts on
startup world sound like trying to teach you something...

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hprotagonist
an old and true complaint.

 _What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith
but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is
without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep
warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is
it?_

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6510
In the first image the woman was burned for murdering yoga practitioners.

In the second image the guy pushed his wife in front of a truck for endlessly
micromanaging him.

In the 3rd image the guy had enough of her negativity and pushed her off the
cliff.

In the 4th image the couple agreed to cash in on the life insurance.

In the 5th image the woman is years to late with her unsolicited advice but
she finally speaks her mind.

------
waihtis
There seems to be some new culture where it’s OK or even celebrated to answer
to good intentions with snarky hostility.

If the advice isn’t to your liking, let it slide right off you. It will not
make you feel better if you berate someone who’s ultimately trying to help
you.

~~~
jowsie
In my experience the person giving the unwanted, heard a million times before
advice isn't doing it because they actually want to help. They just want to
feel good about themselves.

~~~
username90
How do you know, is that why you give advice? I think people really want to
help so they give the advice they know. However since most humans are pretty
simple and similar the advice they give will usually be the same advice
everyone else gives.

~~~
Rilfeu
I can tell you with certainty, many people, at least people close to me didn't
have good intentions when giving advice. Or even if they did have good
intentions, they told me the completely wrong things. When somebody tells you
things like this, you feel like that person didn't take time to understand how
you are feeling, they didn't consider what to tell you to actually help. This
can amplify your feeling of loneliness and helplessness. It was very hard for
me to accept that I cannot count on anyone in my life to help me and that the
only person I can rely on in my life is me.

These situations are very, very hard to navigate if you didn't go through
these issues yourself, so better just not give any advice and just try to
listen.

I even had people tell me outright dangerous things, like telling me to stop
taking medication. People who never had depression, had no contact with
psychology except in high school told me this kind of advice. Even though I am
certain some of the people who told me this wanted the best of me, quitting
meds can have a wide array of unexpected effects, and even if the meds are not
effective, this is still definitely a bad advice. Not to mention that meds
actually helped me a lot.

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bmcn2020
I think one thing that people may have missed here -- at least for the first
four images -- the advice-givers are in a position to help the sufferers, but
they aren't actually helping. they're just giving platitudes, vague, modern,
empty advice that can apply to anyone at any time, regardless of their
situations.

But in these particular situations, the sufferers need actual, physical help,
not just bland words.

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DoreenMichele
See, I can absolutely see myself in that first image as the person saying you
should try yoga -- because that's exactly how I slipped the ropes tying me to
the burning stake and didn't burn to death.

But there's no getting people to see that because they will see it when they
believe it and their position is they will believe it when they see it. "The
key is in the safe."

------
bluntfang
man this is a bad...comic? It seems like the author has gone through a lot,
but I bet they haven't been in any of the life threatening situations they
portray, and I think equating mental health crises to imminent doom is doing a
disservice.

~~~
Rilfeu
Do you know that a person can commit suicide due to mental health[1]? That
sounds pretty serious if you ask me.

I do understand what you're trying to say. But sometimes the threat is
imminent but you cannot see it, and many people will not talk openly about
this to others. Somebody being dismissive of your problems can be exactly like
person pushing you off a cliff.

[1] - [https://www.hhs.gov/answers/mental-health-and-substance-
abus...](https://www.hhs.gov/answers/mental-health-and-substance-abuse/does-
depression-increase-risk-of-suicide/index.html)

~~~
bluntfang
>Do you know that a person can commit suicide due to mental health[1]? That
sounds pretty serious if you ask me.

I do, thanks for reminding me! I guess this comic is a portraying someone who
has attempted suicide or is crying for help via suicide then? It would be nice
to have that clarification.

I think it's disingenuous to equate death with people who aren't facing a life
or death situation, like suicide.

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yummypaint
Paywalled (?)

~~~
Fiveplus
It's a series of images and I'm choosing not to rehost them. Here's [1] the
direct links, hopefully it opens for you.

[1]
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[2]
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[3]
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[4]
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[5]
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~~~
andai
To clarify, the article contains only the images and nothing else -- not even
captions.

