
Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain - EMRo
http://evanmrose.tumblr.com/post/76463244600/last-thursday-my-brother-stephen-rose-fought
======
pserwylo
There is an organisation called BlueHackers.org [0] which was started at the
Open Source Developers Conference. It has a strong presence at linux.conf.au
as well.

The organisation started from a very brief lightning talk that went something
along the lines of (me paraphrasing from memory):

"Who here in this room has experienced depression?" (for which the person
asking the question put their hand up. After a few seconds, quite a few people
in the crowd had their hands up. "Look around, I want you to know that you are
not the only ones who experience this, and there are always people willing to
talk."

One of the ideas they have is, for anybody who is willing, to put a
BlueHackers sticker on their laptop. This little gesture is more than just a
decal though, because it informs other hackers that you understand that if
they are feeling depressed, they don't need to deal with it on their own. You
are telling them that you are willing to discuss anything with them,
especially if they are feeling down.

I have had the sticker on my laptop for over two years now. Although I haven't
had anybody recognise it, or comment on it, or indeed discuss any issues with
me as a consequence of it, and although I myself have been lucky enough not to
have to experience depression, I am absolutely, 100% willing to respond to
anybody who wishes to chat to me about such issues (on the off chance they
recognise the BlueHackers sticker). I would love if this idea took off, so
that people all around the world could see that there are so many people who
are willing to talk.

[0] - [http://bluehackers.org/](http://bluehackers.org/)

~~~
l33tbro
Cool sentiment, but what makes you think other "hackers" have the formal
background to reach out and to a depressed person? If i was depressed, the
last person I'd want to talk to about it are my hacker friends. The vast
majority of the population simply have no idea how to talk to mentally ill
people.

~~~
hrkristian
Depression doesn't really need a qualified person. You're not talking to a
mentally ill person, at least not in the sense that you cannot spring a bolt
in a depressed person's mind and have him go on a killing spree.

The blue sticker says you'll happily talk, and also listen if they have
something profound to get off their chest. That's really the important part,
it's not about giving advice.

~~~
seabee
Just to be clear we're not trivializing the condition, you're right that some
sufferers of depression don't really need a qualified person (particularly if
they have a good support network and sufficient strength of mind) but some
people only turn around after CBT, for example.

I do agree with the general thesis that talking to someone willing to listen
has a neutral to positive effect. I'd also suggest it's especially helpful for
people who feel they can't or shouldn't talk to anyone else they know about
it.

~~~
DanBC
Sadly it's well known that non-specific counseling has a neutral or negative
effect. Obviously studies about this are difficult.

Someone willing to listen is important to help a person with mental health
problems get support. That support doesn't have to be from a professional. It
could be self guided from a good quality book or website. Or it could involve
professionals, from telephone provided CBT through intensive long term
psychological therapies provided by speciList providers.

------
Mz
I get the impression that this is a long, polite way of saying Steve committed
suicide.

The last time I was on HN and the topic of suicide came up, I wrote kind of a
ranty piece that I am not up to editing it (to remove the rantiness) and
reposting. The short version: If you know someone who is suicidal and you care
about them, spend time with them. _In person._ Suicide is almost always
committed when one is alone.

My credentials: I attempted suicide at 17 and have been hospitalized once or
twice for being suicidal in my teens/twenties. In recent years, when medical
issues make me mentally and emotionally unstable, my adult sons "babysit" me
(in other words, I am not left alone when I might be genuinely suicidal and
not just grumpy about life's stressors). I am 48 and I am okay these days in
spite of serious medical problems which have somatopsychic impacts (it's a
real word -- look it up). So I know it is a method that works.

~~~
camus2
My brother committed suicide. He died for nothing,and nobody in the family
even knows why he died. 10 years later, I feel like I dont care he died
anymore, I just cant feel sorry for people committing suicide, it accomplishes
nothing,except destroying a family ,making relatives feel guilty all their
life.

Suicide is the most selfish thing one can do, that's my opinion.

~~~
mikeash
Would you be saying that if he died of cancer instead of mental illness?

People have this bizarre idea that mental illness somehow doesn't "count".
That you have to fight it, and that if you lose, it's your own fault.

You are, right here, blaming the victim of the disease. Your brother died from
a mental illness. It killed him, just as surely as cancer or a heart attack
might have killed him. You'd never, ever, ever say that someone who's killed
by a heart attack is "selfish", so don't do it for mental illnesses either.

~~~
billyjobob
I agree it is not useful to blame suicide victims, but this issue cuts to
heart of free will and personal responsibility and is not clearly resolved. I
wish depression _was_ the same as a physical illness, because then I could
simply go to a doctor and be given a cure. But the only effective cure for
depression is therapy, and no-one else can do it for you - therapist can only
assist you to cure yourself. So without taking personal responsibility there
is no hope of recovery.

Perhaps we should should recognise an ill person cannot be held to the same
standard expected of a well person, but can still be considered to have some
degree of agency in their actions.

It's especially problematic because mental illness is a fault in your
thoughts, and not in, say, your arms or legs. But you don't _have_ thoughts in
the way you _have_ arms and legs - you actually _are_ your thoughts.

~~~
lutusp
> I wish depression was the same as a physical illness, because then I could
> simply go to a doctor and be given a cure.

1\. In point of fact, much scientific evidence shows that depression is a
physical illness, not a mental illness.

2\. The only reason treatments are not available for the physical illness of
depression is because of the primitive state of neuroscience.

3\. But neuroscience research is moving apace, and is very promising. Read
this:
[http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/02/magazine/02depression.html...](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/02/magazine/02depression.html?pagewanted=all)

4\. A quote from the above-linked article: '"So we turn it on," Mayberg told
me later, "and all of a sudden she says to me, 'It's very strange,' she says,
'I know you've been with me in the operating room this whole time. I know you
care about me. But it's not that. I don't know what you just did. But I'm
looking at you, and it's like I just feel suddenly more connected to you.' '

"Mayberg, stunned, signaled with her hand to the others, out of Deanna's view,
to turn the stimulator off."

'"And they turn it off," Mayberg said, "and she goes: 'God, it's just so odd.
You just went away again. I guess it wasn't really anything.'"'

5\. Psychiatrists and psychologists, of course, insist that depression is a
mental illness and is treatable with therapy and drugs. But there is no
reliable scientific evidence for this view.

6\. President Obama recently announced a major "brain initiative", meant to
speed up the pace of neuroscience research. More here:
[http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-
office/2013/04/02/fact-s...](http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-
office/2013/04/02/fact-sheet-brain-initiative)

7\. Notice that the initiative is not called the "mind initiative". The
reason? Psychology had its chance and failed. It's time for a new approach.

> It's especially problematic because mental illness is a fault in your
> thoughts, and not in, say, your arms or legs.

That's what psychiatrists and psychologists would like you to think, but it's
false. Some day this way of describing mental illness will be judged to have
been criminally false.

~~~
illuminate
"1\. In point of fact, much scientific evidence shows that depression is a
physical illness, not a mental illness."

A false dichotomy there.

"Psychiatrists and psychologists, of course, insist that depression is a
mental illness and is treatable with therapy and drugs. But there is no
reliable scientific evidence for this view."

Stated without actual evidence, naturally. On a scale of One to Clear, how
much do you love L Ron Hubbard?

~~~
lutusp
>> "1\. In point of fact, much scientific evidence shows that depression is a
physical illness, not a mental illness."

> A false dichotomy there.

Dichotomy, yes. False, no. The evidence is copious. I posted evidence, you
posted opinion. Which part of the evidentiary links that I provided caused you
the greatest amount of emotional upset?

Which part of "drugs and therapy do not work, but neuroscientific treatments
do work" didn't you understand?

> "Psychiatrists and psychologists, of course, insist that depression is a
> mental illness and is treatable with therapy and drugs. But there is no
> reliable scientific evidence for this view."

> Stated without actual evidence, naturally.

I said there is no evidence for the belief that psychiatrists and
psychologists can treat depression. Your reply? Where's my evidence that
there's no evidence? You are clearly unaware of (a) the impossibility of
proving a negative, (b) of the role played by the null hypothesis in
scientific thinking, and (c) who has the burden of evidence to provide
positive evidence for a claim.

Link:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot)

Quote: "Russell's teapot, sometimes called the celestial teapot or cosmic
teapot, is an analogy first coined by the philosopher Bertrand Russell
(1872–1970) to illustrate that _the philosophic burden of proof lies upon a
person making scientifically unfalsifiable claims_ rather than shifting the
burden of proof to others ..."

In other words, you are a scientific ignoramus.

Psychiatrists claim to be able to treat depression, the claim is formally
unfalsifiable, there is no evidence for this claim and copious
counterevidence, and the burden of evidence belongs to psychiatrists and
psychologists.

Nevertheless, in spite of the fact that the burden belongs to those making the
claim:

Title: "Treating depression with the evidence-based psychotherapies: a
critique of the evidence"

Link:
[http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1600-0447.2007....](http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1600-0447.2007.01007.x/abstract)

Quote: "... the specificity of CBT and IPT treatments for depression has yet
to be demonstrated."

Title: "Initial Severity and Antidepressant Benefits: A Meta-Analysis of Data
Submitted to the Food and Drug Administration"

Link:
[http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fj...](http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pmed.0050045)

Quote: "Meta-analyses of antidepressant medications have reported only modest
benefits over placebo treatment, and when unpublished trial data are included,
_the benefit falls below accepted criteria for clinical significance._ "

Title "The Emperor's New Drugs: An Analysis of Antidepressant Medication Data
Submitted to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration"

Link:
[http://alphachoices.com/repository/assets/pdf/EmperorsNewDru...](http://alphachoices.com/repository/assets/pdf/EmperorsNewDrugs.pdf)
(PDF)

Quote: "If drug and placebo effects are additive, the pharmacological effects
of antidepressants are clinically negligible. If they are not additive,
alternative experimental designs are needed for the evaluation of
antidepressants."

The scientific consensus? Depression drugs and therapy don't work.

------
SpaceRaccoon
From Stephen's tumblr:

"23RD JAN 2014 Recent experiences caused me to examine my motivation for
undertaking potentially revenue-generating projects. I initiated this site in
order to produce income — a reason which seemed to require no further
examination at the time. However, upon further reflection I discovered that I
sought something more significant than income.

After pondering more deeply, I realized that income generation is not my
ultimate motivation; I recognized that there are contexts in which money is
useless or non-existent (e.g. being stranded alone on an island; or when a
national government is radically re-structured in the wake of a natural
disaster). Money is merely a means to attain other ends — it is a tool.
Accordingly, I recognized that creating and producing value is my primary
goal, while income generation follows subsequently.

This realization informs my time expenditure; I could cease writing this
passage, and instead apply for employment positions via the internet.
Conceivably, this strategy could be more effective for increasing my revenue
over the short term — prior to my insight of today, I might have pursued this
option. However, I now distinguish between income generation and value
creation, and currently aim to maximize the latter. Accordingly, I will
perform salaried labor for the minimum amount of time necessary to meet my
material needs, while devoting all time thereafter to working on my venture."

Insightful, admirable person. Rest in peace.

------
thaumaturgy
Thank you for starting a conversation about this. I know it's difficult, but
it's important for the health and wellbeing of many other people struggling
with the same problems that there are conversations like this one.

I've struggled with depression too, though never been suicidal. Both of my
parents made multiple suicide attempts last year.

I hope you don't blame yourself for not being there for your brother. You
can't predict when someone will need help, it's extremely difficult for most
people to offer effective help, and people struggling with depression and
other mental illnesses often get good at hiding it.

~~~
wozniacki
Without sounding insensitive, may I ask what it is - that _you_ think - that
is at the root of this stripe of depression that you seem to be well
acquainted with.

I know that this sort of thing cannot be easily summed up.

However, most of us on the outside have little clue about what sets these
things in motion, for various individuals, in the first place.

Broadly and typically, is it a fundamental disillusionment with (and thereby
rejection of) the state of affairs of the world and the person's place in that
world?

Is it a sense of (perceived) total betrayal of the social contract?

I'm sure any elaboration would help others understand this better.

~~~
thaumaturgy
_For me_ , it seems to be multi-faceted. There's definitely some kind of mood
swing component that seems entirely biological; regardless of whether things
are going well in life or not, there are periods of between a week and
sometimes as long as a month where I simply have difficulty getting up in the
morning, focusing, socializing, and maintaining healthy habits like regular
exercise. Usually my sugar consumption skyrockets when this happens and I keep
bad hours and the cycle feeds into itself.

Then there seems to be a slightly greater sensitivity to problems. Outwardly,
I can power through a lot of problems -- financial trouble, management, work,
personal life stuff, whatever -- but inwardly, it kills me a little bit.

Annoyingly, other people's problems bother me a lot too, extending all the way
out to sociological issues. I think this is part of what created David Foster
Wallace's famous speech, "This is Water"
([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-
ydFMI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI)) -- he eventually
committed suicide. But this can also be a strength, it's what drives me to try
to make a difference.

Anyway, the real trouble begins when I'm in a biological downswing _and_
things in life start getting really hard. In a single year, I lost most of my
friends over a disagreement, my parents both had serious issues (and I was
their counselor for much of it), my business was struggling, and the effort I
had put into training for search and rescue all Summer got wasted when the
vehicle I was driving died on the way up to the final exam. It was just a lot
of stuff all at once, so when the mood problems hit, I barely functioned at
all for about a month.

The only common theme that I think I've found so far among people who struggle
with depression is a feeling that nobody cares about them, or that they're
undervalued in some really big way. Struggling with depression is challenging;
struggling with it _alone_ is extremely difficult.

On the other hand, because of the social stigma it currently carries, few
people want to make a big deal of depression when they're struggling with it.

So, if you think you know someone who's having trouble with it, it can
sometimes help them a lot to just initiate contact and suggest spending just a
little bit of time doing something they enjoy: a card game, going out for a
bit, watching TV, whatever. It doesn't have to get heavy. It'll help them to
know that somebody cares.

~~~
mhenr18
Man, the mood swing part rings true for me. In my case they're usually 1-2
weeks. There's some anxiety/depression on my mother's side of the family but I
wouldn't say that I've got any issues with it.

Now I'm curious as to whether the mood swings are more common, or whether
that's actually something I should look into. If there is an underlying issue
I need to resolve then it might have been masked by my relatively good run of
things.

~~~
thaumaturgy
It can worsen (or improve) with age or biology. If you can, it could be worth
finding a doctor you trust and talking to them about it, and try to determine
whether it needs to be addressed or not.

------
dfc
The fact that talking about mental health issues is beyond "the fringe of
acceptable conversation" is harmful. I wholeheartedly agree that something
needs to change on this front in order to prevent more tragedies. One small
step would be to stop saying "lost the battle and passed from this world" and
say "committed suicide."

We will not be able to engage in thoughtful, constructive and mature
conversations if one of the unfortunate outcomes of mental illness is so taboo
that we can not speak its name in public. Can you imagine a sexual education
class where the teacher used terms like "thingies," "who-hahs" or "that other
kind of sex"?

~~~
curun1r
> One small step would be to stop saying "lost the battle and passed from this
> world" and say "committed suicide."

Or just 'suicided'. Suicide is typically a noun, but can be used as a verb
too. Using the word commit, to me, ties it with judgmental phrases like
'committing a crime' or 'committing a sin'. Part of changing our perspective
on mental illness will be to call out the subtle ways in which we demonize or
otherwise blame the victim.

~~~
Mz
Please see:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7228583](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7228583)

I generally agree with you and stated clearly that it sounded like suicide.
But, a) my mom says "funerals are for the living". So I think we need to
respect the pain of the family here. And b) I have been writing online about
very hard, delicate topics for quite a long time. So I have some practice with
walking that line which I don't think we can expect or demand from someone in
shock and mourning.

~~~
dfc
My original comment was motivated by genuine compassion and empathy. I have
been starting and stopping a response to OP's reply to me for an hour now and
I am unsure of how to phrase things. Your mom has a point, but when do we
respect and try to prevent the pain of the next family? Every time this
happens I understand and am tempted by the "now is not the time" reaction but
I am also reminded of my favorite piece of writing:

    
    
      "Frankly, I have yet to engage in a [discussion of suicide and depression] that
      was 'well timed' in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the
      disease of [depression]. For years now I have heard the word 'Wait!' It rings
      in the ear of every [parent/friend/depressive] with piercing familiarity. This
      'Wait' has almost always meant 'Never.'"

~~~
Mz
I don't know the answer to that. I do know that conversations which make
people feel blamed for something terrible that has happened and which cannot
be reversed are disastrous.

I am very familiar with the social factors in suicide. The way I have been
treated socially is a big part of why I am often suicidal. I have cystic
fibrosis, as does my oldest son. We have figured out how to get well when
everyone claims it cannot be done. The world would like us to politely die so
doctors and others can feel like they know what they are talking about. I am
currently deeply in debt and homeless. I can get almost no one to take me
seriously. I feel a bit like Galileo, a prisoner and shunned for speaking the
truth about an important discovery. It is the kind of thing other people get
Nobel prizes for. But I am an outcast and the world is very content with
condemning me to death and putting up obstacles at every turn. So, that is a
big part of why I often feel like "what is the point?"

I perhaps made a mistake in returning to HN. I really do not feel welcome
here. Plenty of wealthy, influential people here have attacked me or otherwise
behaved in a malicious fashion towards me. In the past, it has been okay for
people to pillory me here. The community did not care if I got the crap kicked
out of me. The rules about "respecting" others and not engaging in personal
attacks apparently do not apply so as to protect me. This is hardly unique to
HN. It is pretty normal in most online settings.

I am clear that part of the reason for that is that people who are very ill or
who have loved ones who are very ill are deeply hurt by the idea that I am
getting well when they are not. Trying to share information with them is
routinely interpreted as making them look stupid and shaming them, even in
cases where the ill person still lives and could yet be helped.

So I have spent a lot of years wrestling with how to diplomatically talk about
hard subjects, my health being just one of them. And long experience informs
me that speaking of this issue in a manner which could make the OP feel
somehow at fault for his brother's death cannot bring his brother back but can
do all kinds of harm to him and others involved in the situation.

I am unwilling to suggest that the OP could or should have done x, y, or z
differently and then his brother "would" still be alive. We do not know the
particulars of this case and that is the worst kind of Monday night
quarterbacking imaginable.

I hope the OP's intent to have his brother's death not be in vain serves to
get people talking and helps others. It is too late to help his brother. It is
not too late to do serious damage to him and others by how we talk about this.

Anyway, I have a headache. I logged in to find my last submission to HN dead.
I am not in the best place emotionally myself today.

I hope that helps/sorry if it is TMI (something I am often accused of).

------
trvd1707
I'm sorry for your loss. I lost my son to suicide in 2009. He was brilliant,
very sociable, very mature and he too struggled with mental illness. Today I
know a lot more about the subject and I'm trying to help preventing more
suicides from happening and mental health from being poorly diagnosed and
treated. Right now I'm working on a project to develop apps for smart devices
that can help people at risk of suicide. If anyone wants to help, please,
contact me.

~~~
xenophanes
Have you read Szasz? Have you refuted his arguments? If you have not
considered arguments which say what you're doing is actively bad, but you're
going ahead anyway, isn't that irresponsible? If you have considered them,
could you tell or link me the answer?

~~~
whyleyc
Because ivory tower intellectual debate is exactly what people raw from the
emotion of a life changing event need right now.

Why not take a step back and ask yourself whether this might be a helpful
thing to do in a universe which didn't revolve around your debating skills.

~~~
wiredfool
That's not ivory tower debate. That's "I'm hyperrational so you're wrong"
dysfunctional argumentation.

------
erichurkman
I am sorry for your loss.

> What happened to Stephen and our family is something that “happens to
> someone else.”

Mental health issues impact everyone at some point in their life – either
personally, or through someone close. Unfortunately, society seems to discount
mental health issues – they are not an open discussion topic. They are complex
and difficult to understand and diagnose. This is something we should all
endeavor to correct, for the better health of everyone.

~~~
EMRo
Agreed completely. The stigma attached just makes things harder.

------
benwikler
EMRo, I'm so so sorry about your loss and your family's loss. Thank you for
writing about it. Please take care of yourself as well—and let others take
care of you. Grief lasts a lifetime, but it won't always hurt as acutely as it
does now. Along the way, you might find some of this helpful; I know I do.
[http://quinnnorton.com/revived/tips.html](http://quinnnorton.com/revived/tips.html)

~~~
EMRo
Thanks for sending that along. Trying to keep my head up and surrounding
myself with family and friends.

------
seancoleman
I can only sympathize with what Evan and Stephen went through. We must break
the stigma against mental illness. It is far too wide reaching and impactful
not to be at the forefront of technology innovation and health research. I
challenge new startups to start attacking depression and anxiety disorders.

The best solution to depression is often simply finding what works for you
through trial and error of available options including medication, therapy,
supplements, better nutrition, exercise etc. Unfortunately, this is a long and
arduous process that some never make it through. How can we accelerate this
discovery process for mentally ill people to find the help they need?

~~~
xenophanes
> We must break the stigma against mental illness

How? People are labelled mentally ill IFF they do things that have a stigma
attached.

~~~
seancoleman
I don't believe that's true. There are plenty of mentally ill people
(depression, anxiety, bi-polar) that act completely normal like Stephen. They
often suffer in silence.

~~~
xenophanes
How could he possibly have been, "in a highly-respected treatment program", or
labelled mentally ill, if he acted completely normal and suffered in silence?

~~~
EMRo
He was what doctors call 'high functioning.' He was able to operate in society
and shroud his pain though it was incredibly painful to do so for him. He
wasn't 'completely normal'. He was in a very well respected program in Boston
and working through his issues to have the life he wanted.

~~~
xenophanes
What's your point?

~~~
polymatter
I am unable to comprehend your lack of understanding. He was mentally ill. He
was treated for it. He operated within society in a fashion that does not
comply with the stigma of mental illness (no murdering people, no sociopath
manipulation). We need to remove this stigma (that all mentally ill are
dangerous psycopaths). This will help those who are mentally ill find
treatment.

I think perhaps you do not believe that depression is a mental illness.
Perhaps you also believe that drugs and hormones can not affect mood, that
heroin and alcohol have no affect on the body. Or perhaps you believe that
there are absolutely no circumstances in which a human can grow to adulthood
without exactly normal sensitivity to mood affecting drugs and hormones. Like
how we all evolve slightly different nose shapes and patterns of hair growth,
but all the organs in the whole body act with perfect regularity with drugs
with no variation at all.

I don't know, as someone whose 8 year relationship ended with a partner who
never accepted depression wasn't something I can control. To me its like not
believing that lung cancer exists or something. We have evidence, diagnosis
and treatment for it. Depression is hardly a made-up condition.

------
rickdale
Terribly sorry for your loss. My condolences and sympathy are with you and
your family. And I mean that for real. HN has been there for me through death
and we are here for you too bro.

~~~
EMRo
Thanks for that. I really appreciate it.

------
ca98am79
EMRo - I'm very sorry for your loss.

I am going through something similar right now with my father who has
psychotic depression. It is really hard.

Thank you for your post, and for helping to raise awareness about this. I will
try to help.

------
hawkharris
This story about your brother's struggle was moving...I'm sorry to hear about
your loss. Mental health-related causes are personal to me as well.

I think you touched on one of the biggest issues: the stereotype that people
with mental health problems appear different and have a lower social status.
As your story illustrates, the conditions affect all sorts of people,
including those who are smart, successful and career-oriented.

Many people fail to recognize the severity of psychological problems because
they're too busy looking at superficial measures of well being: a person's
career, his or her physical appearance, etc. But depression has made some of
us feel as if we're in a deep fog or a war zone, even if, on the surface, we
live in nice neighborhoods and succeed in the workplace.

The key is to be more vocal about this struggle beneath the surface — and to
speak up very soon. In my observation, the earlier in life a person can
overcome depression, the greater his or her chances of becoming happy and
stable.

Kudos on taking the initiative to speak up about this important issue and
responding constructively to such as a great loss.

~~~
EMRo
"Many people fail to recognize the severity of psychological problems because
they're too busy looking at superficial measures of well being: a person's
career, his or her physical appearance, etc. But depression has made some of
us feel as if we're in a deep fog or a war zone, even if, on the surface, we
live in nice neighborhoods and succeed in the workplace."

THIS.

Being vocal about the struggle is so crucial. My family had no clue what to
even look for when these issues started cropping up much less how to get him
help. By the time we got him the level of help he needed he had already been
in the throes of deep depression and anxiety. Thanks for your kind words.

~~~
wiredfool
I'm sorry for your loss.

We lost my sister to depression about 6 years ago. Superficially, life was
fine -- good career, no money issues, good friends. But she was carrying
baggage around from years earlier, when she was overworked and overloaded in
grad school. (In a lab notorious for overwork, and unfortunately, suicide.)
She was told she was depressed then, but no one really got the scope of it. I
don't know why she wasn't getting treatment years later, other than things
seemed to be going alright.

There were a couple of things, that later, seem to be really key. Had we
known, or understood, I think things might have been different.

------
armini
I'm extremely sorry for your loss EMRo.

I'm not aware of your brothers mental health issues but I can certainty
relate. If I find that my mental health is deteriorating I try to do two
things. 1- Start the process of cognitive creativity to stimulate my mind 2-
Reach out to the world by attempting to solve someones problems

By taking focus away from my world and looking at others, I can better come to
self realization and my drive to good use by connecting with others. Often
when times are hard you just need to reach out and get a response from anyone.
I decided to make this website [http://boopoohoo.com](http://boopoohoo.com)
that allows for that feedback loop I need to keep going. I don't know the
people there and it doesn't get all that much traffic but I check it daily
just encase someone has left me a message. A simple thing such as telling a
total stranger your opinion on a delama they are having can make a world of
difference in their day.

If you ever need to reach out, I'm happy to help.....

~~~
EMRo
Hey thanks for sharing your story. My brother was just starting a blog and
hoping to share his ideas with others. He was an avid problem solver and I
wish he had found ways to reel himself back in like you did. Will check out
your site!

------
seancoleman
I hope one day coming out as mentally ill will have no more stigma than
announcing you have cancer.

~~~
sliverstorm
Do you mean "no _more_ stigma"?

~~~
seancoleman
Yes, thank you.

------
ghswa
So sorry for your loss EMRo.

If I were anywhere nearby I'd have come along to the memorial service but the
Atlantic is quite big... I hope the service goes well for you all.

Sadly the troll(s) in this thread are demonstrating the kind of prejudice that
can make it difficult to have a serious discussion about the more immediate
problems faced by people suffering from mental health problems.

------
dodyg
I am sorry for your loss.

My friend committed suicide in a very public way almost three years ago. She
was at that the time just completed her master degree, got a high paying job,
recently married and fund-raised thousands of dollars for charity. She was
pretty much in the traditional 'well on her way' trajectory that many people
are dreaming of.

Suicide is hard to understand.

------
EMRo
I wanted to take a minute to just say that this thread has moved me to tears.

Firstly, people sharing their story. This is exactly what Steve wanted, to
share his story, his ideas. Sharing the story is so important to removing the
stigma around mental health. It warms my heart to see people with the courage
to tell others about their struggles (and then it double-warms my heart to see
other people supporting them!!)

Secondly, the sheer support for him. He was a quiet person but a mental giant.
Just to have so many people acknowledge him is truly beautiful for me and my
family.

------
ececconi
So sorry for your loss. I lost my father about seven years ago. The time
following that period was excruciating. It sounds like your mindset is in the
right direction. Just make sure to surround yourself with people that support
you.

Here's my story. If you ever need to bounce ideas back and forth or just need
someone to talk to, send me a message via twitter and we can take it offline.

[https://medium.com/philosophy-and-
psychology/97b44f17cd81](https://medium.com/philosophy-and-
psychology/97b44f17cd81)

------
dfraser992
No one has posted a link to this poem which I learned about ... many years ago
in high school. It has always stayed with me and touches upon the fundamental
philosophical issues around suicide - survivor's guilt, the "why?", the
essential loneliness of every individual...

[http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/richard-
cory/](http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/richard-cory/)

------
nraynaud
I don't get what is brother suffered of, how it's linked to his death and
what's the call to action is. But I'm sorry someone died.

------
einhverfr
Very sorry for your loss. I have not lost family to suicide but I have lost
two friends to this. There's nothing else to say really.

------
scrrr
This was well written. It also sounds like suicide and I can't imagine how one
must feel to do such a thing. But it reminds me that despite all cool toys and
great achievements, what really matters in this life is others we can talk to
and rely on. And this shouldn't only include friends and family but society as
a whole.

------
wowsig
I was caught thinking whether he committed suicide. It is a brave idea to
discuss the intimate details of such a grave news, but transparency to the
last mile will only help others a little more.

------
goshx
This reminds me of: [http://patientslikeme.com](http://patientslikeme.com)

~~~
vellum
Medical sites like this should really use https by default.

~~~
goshx
It does, when you login.

~~~
cypherpunks01
However, POSTing from a http login page to https "logged in" page opens you up
to javascript injection attacks that can sniff credentials as you perform the
login action.

Further, ssl stripping man-in-the-middle attacks on any http page on a site
can force your session to remain in cleartext, even if you navigate to a page
that's supposed to be encrypted. Your webserver really needs to redirect to
https always, to prevent against this.

------
leobelle
What a terrible loss. I'm sorry.

------
lampe3
Sorry for your loss.

Make every day count!

------
kimura
Sorry for your loss.

------
TWAndrews
Really sorry for your loss.

------
notastartup
I would start out by saying there's a stigma around mental illness and that
it's not a "real" illness and that it's "all in the head therefore not real".

It is exactly this type of attitude we have had since the dark ages that much
development of treatment and studies are now only beginning to take more
shape.

We have to have a much wider awareness of mental illness and how it affects
the basic human rights.

~~~
xenophanes
How does it affect basic human rights, exactly? Some examples:

People labelled mentally ill can be imprisoned without a trial.

People labelled mentally ill can avoid prison when another person who did the
same actions would go to jail.

People labelled mentally ill can be drugged by force.

This is bad for basic human rights, isn't it?

~~~
ceejayoz
> People labelled mentally ill can be imprisoned without a trial.

So can people not labelled mentally ill, and involuntary confinement happens
well within the confines of our legal and justice systems.

> People labelled mentally ill can avoid prison when another person who did
> the same actions would go to jail.

People found not guilty by reason of insanity are typically kept in a forensic
unit with similar levels of freedom as a prison, and typically are detained
longer. It's not as if they're turned loose.

> People labelled mentally ill can be drugged by force.

So can people not labelled mentally ill.

~~~
xenophanes
So there's other bad things in the world, too. What's your point?

Sometimes people who escape criminal justice via psychiatry get similar levels
of freedom. Sometimes significantly less freedom! It can be a way to imprison
people for an indeterminate sentence which may last longer than the maximum
prison term for their offense. And, sometimes it's quite a lot like they are
turned loose. All of these happen.

~~~
ceejayoz
[http://law.jrank.org/pages/1136/Excuse-Insanity-Empirical-
da...](http://law.jrank.org/pages/1136/Excuse-Insanity-Empirical-data-
myths.html)

"Defendants who asserted an insanity defense at trial, and who were ultimately
found guilty of their charges, served significantly longer sentences than
defendants tried on similar charges who did not assert the insanity defense.
Unsuccessful NGRI pleaders are incarcerated for a 22 percent longer time than
individuals who never raise the plea."

Citations included there, by the way. For someone demanding citations, you're
mainly throwing out "read Szalz!" and citing nothing.

~~~
rqebmm
There's probably a strong selection bias here though. If one's trying the
insanity defense it's either a.) they're insane and really didn't know what
was going on, or b.) they have no other defense and are going for a hail mary.
People in both camps are very unlikely to receive shortened sentences or early
parole.

------
almosnow
Care to say what was his actual problem was? And how did he passed out?

~~~
EMRo
[redacted]

~~~
chimeracoder
Just so you know, it's considered good form for journalists reporting on
suicide to refrain from describing the method (to the extent
possible)[0][1][2].

On a professional level, it is believed (and supported by some research) that
this can be a trigger for people who read the article, potentially causing
more suicides.

On a personal level (for you), you may want your brother remembered for his
life, rather than evoking in readers' minds the image of his last moments
alive.

[0] www.sprc.org/library/sreporting.pdf

[1] [http://www.samaritans.org/media-centre/media-guidelines-
repo...](http://www.samaritans.org/media-centre/media-guidelines-reporting-
suicide/advice-journalists-suicide-reporting-dos-and-donts)

[2]
[http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/mar/28/media-r...](http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/mar/28/media-
reporting-suicide-bad-science)

------
xenophanes
> he did all the things he was supposed to do to get help in a moment of
> crisis - made multiple calls to his care providers, to 911 and even went to
> the hospital. He had been experiencing symptoms for several years but was in
> a highly-respected treatment program that was working intimately with him.

So in other words, conventional psychiatry failed. And the author's solution
seems to be to spread it more.

Maybe after a failure like this, where we see that the care providers,
hospital and "highly-respected treatment program" don't work, it's time to
stop respecting that treatment program so much and consider different
approaches.

[http://www.szasz.com](http://www.szasz.com)

~~~
PhasmaFelis
It sure is interesting that your two primary supporters in this discussion
(JustinCEO and aforrester) were created more than a year ago but haven't
posted anything on HN until today, when they showed up to support you.

No, wait, aforrester made one post on the day it was created, supporting your
position in a totally different discussion of suicide. My mistake.

Still waiting for that evidence I asked for, by the way.

~~~
JustinCEO
I don't appreciate the implication that I'm not a person. Xenophanes posted
the link to this discussion to a public email list where (you may find this
shocking), some people agree with him and are interested in this kind of
discussion.

He also mentioned that HN is blocking him from posting more, so maybe you can
blame Paul Graham for you not getting the answers you wanted. But there's
still hope.

Want answers? Want a discussion on a forum that without censorship? Want a
discussion where you won't be punished if you say "What You Can't Say"[0], as
xenophanes dared do today? I think he, myself, and others would be happy to
answer your questions at:

[https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/fallible-
ideas/info](https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/fallible-ideas/info)

If you don't come, and instead stick to a forum where hardly anyone continues
a discussion for more than 12 hours, then I for one will figure you aren't
really that interested, and I won't be motivated to write answers for you.

[0] [http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html)

~~~
benatkin
Does the person behind Xenophanes consider each of their online identities to
be a "person"? Nice dodge with that choice of word. It's easier to claim that
a fake online identity is a person than it is to claim that a fake online
identity is a human.

> Want a discussion where you won't be punished if you say "What You Can't
> Say"[0], as xenophanes dared do today?

I smell astroturf.

~~~
xenophanes
Justin and Alan are not me.

~~~
PhasmaFelis
Glad to hear it.

Since you are apparently not, as JustinCEO claimed, hellbanned, I'll remind
you that I'm still waiting on those citations. You demanded them from everyone
else, it's only fair that you should provide your own.

~~~
xenophanes
i was blocked from posting for around 3 hours, which is why i didn't answer
most of my critics. email me curi@curi.us if you want to discuss it further.

