
US Senate passes sweeping tax overhaul bill - benevol
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42205181
======
TAForObvReasons
For those who didn't watch the proceedings,
[https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQAYbwpU8AELZa0.jpg](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQAYbwpU8AELZa0.jpg)
was one of the actual pages of the bill, quite literally handwritten scribbled
margin notes.

~~~
francamps
Source?

~~~
anigbrowl
S/he gave you a source. If you don't think it's adequate you should say why.
PBS has a good reputation for veracity.

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lancewiggs
The law making process is so clearly broken. I see this as a contributing
factor to the long gradual decline of the role of the USA in the world. The
reemergence of China should be engendering a positive spirit of lifting the
game, not a money grabbing exercise.

If you can’t make evidence based laws for the people then society will be
warped into some dysfunctional dystopian end game.

~~~
TAForObvReasons
To a large extent, the broken parts of US politics stem from the lack of
actual written rules. Many things that should be codified are actually
"gentlemen's agreements", where people agree to act in good faith. Today's
show on the Senate floor was the logical conclusion of an entire political
party deciding to break every aspect of that unstated agreement,

~~~
briandear
Oh right and Obamacare didn’t do the exact same thing? What goes around..

~~~
anigbrowl
Please stop repeating that obvious canard. It's insulting to your fellow HNers
to repeat known counterfactual claims.

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tymmc
I think Mitch McConnell will go down as a historically terrible senator. He
has an absolutely single-minded focus on winning legislative "victories"
without any consideration of the actual merits of what he's corralling votes
for or agaisnt.

~~~
jrs235
Sounds like a prosecutor that focuses on convictions and personal record and
not on truth and justice. This, the lack of pursuing truth and justice, is
what is eroding our society.

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shams93
The Republicans have been so skilled at digital jerrymandering that we have
digital technology delivering us a single party state. Only mass voter outrage
will be enough to overcome a decade of very effective data driven
jerrymandering.

~~~
leifaffles
It's actually spelled "gerrymandering".

You might have learned that by now if you weren't so busy spreading dumb
conspiracy theories on the internet.

~~~
InclinedPlane
[https://www.texastribune.org/2017/08/15/federal-court-
invali...](https://www.texastribune.org/2017/08/15/federal-court-invalidates-
part-texas-congressional-map/)

[https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/05/north-c...](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/05/north-
carolina-gerrymandering/527592/)

[https://www.salon.com/2016/11/22/unconstitutional-
gerrymande...](https://www.salon.com/2016/11/22/unconstitutional-gerrymander-
federal-court-strikes-down-wisconsins-gop-drawn-redistricting/)

Are you really that ignorant or are you complicit with these crimes?

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benevol
I know it takes 100°C for water to boil, but how much does the US need?

Keep in mind, Trump is not the source of the problem, he is one of the
(reinforcing) symptoms of a host of underlying systemic societal issues.

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tymmc
What a horrible process. You don't get good legislation written by ramming it
through without time to evaluate the consequences of the law.

~~~
jessaustin
"We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it away from the
fog of the controversy."

~~~
djur
A comment about a bill that took almost a year to draft and which was passed
under regular order. And now hypocrites who used that quote to attack Pelosi
are supporting this abominable bill, which was passed without any kind of
analysis and without even the slightest pretense that anyone voting for it had
read it.

~~~
jessaustin
The legislative process is always a mess. No matter how much we pretend (in
one direction, because double standards), no significant law passes without
essentially indefensible actions "behind the scenes". We may feel that one
bill is super-duper and the other one is terrible, but we shouldn't let that
blind us to the inevitably shabby nature of the process. Likewise, selectively
noticing that nature for the purpose of criticizing particular bills makes for
unconvincing political argument.

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adamnemecek
One of the problems of US is the fact that protesting is virtually impossible.
Unless there are 1,000,000 people in the streets of DC for two weeks, no one
will care. Protesting in your city has little impact on the federal level.
Also The general lack of public spaces makes it hard. And the fact that the
police cracks down pretty hard on things after the first display of some sort
of "disobedience". Look at the photos from protests in like France. Shit on
fire, people throwing shit, but the police doesn't shoot them.

Dystopian police state here we come. Fuck I hope at least there will be a real
NeoTokyo in the future.

~~~
WillPostForFood
This bill doesn't fundamentally change very much besides the corporate tax
rate, so the explosive reaction seems unnecessary. You aren't going to get a
million people in the street because their tax bill went up, or down, several
hundred dollars, which is what this amounts to for most people.

~~~
djur
It changes a lot more than that. Although we don't know precisely what,
because the House and Senate bills need to be reconciled (or the House will
just pass the Senate bill) and the Senate bill was literally written on the
floor tonight. Nobody has done a serious analysis of its effects. What we do
know suggests that it will increase the uninsured rate substantially, increase
the deficit dramatically, and trigger automatic cuts to Medicare and other
programs.

~~~
WillPostForFood
_increase the uninsured rate substantially_

If people choose to drop insurance because they aren't mandated to buy it,
then it is on them

 _increase the deficit dramatically_

certainly true

 _trigger automatic cuts to Medicare_

This is the only reason I'm replying, because there is no way that it will
happen. No one wants cuts, and it would be political poison. Claiming it is
fear mongering (not you, but the people using it to attack the bill).

[https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DP_dYbWW4AA0-8h.jpg](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DP_dYbWW4AA0-8h.jpg)

~~~
djur
Mitch McConnell's word is worth nothing. Republicans are already talking about
"entitlement reform", aka cuts to Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid. Any
hope that the GOP will avoid a particular course of action because it's
"political suicide" should be dead and buried after the last year.

As for the uninsured rate, eliminating the mandate will not only cause people
to voluntarily drop insurance but also involuntarily push people out of
insurance due to the resulting increase in premiums. That's what happens when
you kick out one of the legs of a three-legged stool.

~~~
WillPostForFood
Republicans may well attempt to cut/reform entitlements, but it won't be
because of the tax bill triggering mandatory cuts. That is the fear mongering
piece.

The effect of eliminating the mandate is unclear. People paying the fine to
not have insurance will surely stop. People who have insurance now, should
keep it. But it the insurance is so worthless to them that think it isn't
worth having, hopefully it will motivate smarter fix than simply mandating it.
Poor people will still continue to get their insurance paid for.

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calvinbhai
I'm a temp immigrant in US, who is equally frustrated with the Trump hating
democrat supporters, the Hillary-hating Trump supporters and the neutrals.

Based on what I know from my own small sample set of data, makes me believe
that the the Trump vote base is strong, and considerable in number, and is
super happy with this tax overhaul.

They see it as "Trump kept his promise", by simplifying the tax code, reducing
taxes on his vote base, increasing taxes on the tax bracket that trump voters
considered to be something like "free money mongers" and of course, its going
to affect the democrat strongholds.

What I find funny, is that many Trump haters are still starting a conversation
by presuming that majority of the country hates this tax reform (its probably
the top 10 most populous cities of US and California). I think people need to
go out of democrat stronghold areas and get some real feedback.

I'm curious to see how this sweeping tax overhaul works out in the long run

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hellofunk
I'm terribly surprised that McCain went along with this legislative process.
No one had time to read the bill - or even have the bill itself - when the
votes were cast. Just makes no sense.

What kind of country behaves that way?

~~~
InclinedPlane
A failed one.

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NTDF9
I think the US doesn't have enough accountability for its leaders. These guys
just come in, serve the lobbyists and keep renewing their terms. They say one
thing and do another.

Is there any consequence of this directly to the congress people? Not really,
cuz come election time, they'll lie through their teeth to get votes, all the
while forgetting that they are the ones who did the damage in the first place.

They should either ban lobbying or have penalties for congresspeople who lie
to their electorates. As it stands, I can't see that happening.

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domoritz
It's sickening how large corporations make more and more money but pay almost
no taxes because (through the money) they have so much influence on politics.

~~~
WillPostForFood
One of the main reasons large corporations pay no tax is that they hide the
money in other countries with lower corporate tax rates. You can argue that it
is a race to the bottom, or ineffective for other reasons, but the lower
corporate tax rate is an attempt to deal with the issue, and get a cut of that
money, albeit at a lower rate.

~~~
dingaling
But if private citizens were able to park their income offshore I am fairly
sure the response wouldn't be to lower income taxes.

~~~
WillPostForFood
It is a matter of complexity, and quantity. Wealthy private citizens do park
money offshore via trusts and other mechanisms. It wouldn't be a good trade-
off to lower tax rates to lure it back, because it is at such a smaller scale
than the corporate parking.

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RickJWag
The pendulum swings back and forth. It's not the end of the earth, it's not
going to bring utopia.

Can we please use Hacker News for technical issues?

~~~
drallison
Hacker News should focus on important issues, which are not always technical.
The Senates's tax overhaul is an important issue. The outrageous behavior of
the Republican Senators to get the bill passes is an important issue.

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InclinedPlane
This will go down in history as one of the most grotesque things to ever have
happened in American politics. And that's saying a lot, there is some stiff
competition for sure.

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breerly
Annnnd they pulled the AMT repeal.

~~~
chatmasta
Gotta tax those rich people

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anigbrowl
Minor upside: it still has to go through reconciliation and this Congress has
proven itself expert in snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. But yeah,
this is an economic dumpster fire.

------
ktt8943
This bill is rural state senators and large corporations robbing middle class
in industrialized areas.

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danieltillett
I don’t know why anyone is worried about this - the worse the corruption and
give away to the 0.01% the bigger the blowback. The end result is the 0.01%
are going to pay far more than if they had been reasonable.

~~~
ZeroGravitas
The standard operating procedure when American oligarchs feel threatened is
war and racial/ethnic/religious division to distract the rubes. So probably
quite a few people should be worried.

I like your optimism though.

~~~
danieltillett
This sort of thing has been used for the last 40 years and its effectiveness
is drawing to an end. Nobody believes anything the oligarchs say anymore.

You can only pull on a rubber band for so long before it eventually breaks and
smacks you in the face. The band is now very, very tight. The next economic
downturn risks unleashing something that no amount of money can control.

~~~
Judgmentality
> Nobody believes anything the oligarchs say anymore.

And yet Donald Trump was elected president.

~~~
anigbrowl
The fact that people put a game show host of his ilk in that office _is_ the
death of the institutional canary.

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sytelus
I have been watching comments on NYTimes and Fox News and what surprised was
not a single person (out of couple of thousands) actually estimated their tax
bill and compared.

There is one calculator out here (which might not be accurate because of
changes): [https://www.calcxml.com/calculators/trump-tax-reform-
calcula...](https://www.calcxml.com/calculators/trump-tax-reform-calculator)

I used it to arrive at following numbers. If this tax calculator is right then
there is indeed ~$10K tax cut for everyone in middle class and above:

$750K->$236,950 to $212,060

350K->$81,595 to $72,060

250K->$47,701 to $38,900

150K->$17,778 to $9900

50K->$548 to 0

On the other hand this NYTimes analysis says that lower and middle class cuts
are tiny but people with $1M or more just get huge cut:
[https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/11/17/us/politics/s...](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/11/17/us/politics/senate-
tax-plan-analysis.html)

Also, according to above analysis poor people will be taxed more than before
after 10 years!

So overall at this point I think computing impact remains very hazy given all
kind of conflicting information. But one thing for sure, rich people are the
major winner here given much higher cuts + no or less death tax. Warren Buffet
had said that common strategy they used during Bush era was to give $400 one
time check to everyone so they are happy while sneaking in millions of dollars
of recurring tax cuts for the rich in form of capital gains.

I wish US had Swiss style public referendums where people can demand to vote
on legislation and overthrow any legislation they wished.

~~~
marcell
Those numbers you posted are probably inaccurate. The true numbers really
depend on whether you itemize your deductions, and how much. This particular
tax bill substantially raises taxes for people who itemize, in particular
states with high local taxes like California.

I don’t know about Fox News but The NY Times had a good analysis of this:
[https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/11/28/upshot/what-t...](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/11/28/upshot/what-
the-tax-bill-would-look-like-for-25000-middle-class-families.html)

Obviously many families and individuals will see their taxes go up.

~~~
sytelus
I assumed standard family (married filed jointly, 2 kids, standard deduction).

~~~
jessaustin
Yeah somehow I don't see itemized deductions as a "middle class" thing. Even
less so with the standard deduction increase.

~~~
marcell
About 1/3 of households itemize deductions, including myself. I live in a two
bedroom condo with two kids, I consider myself "middle class." Itemizing
deductions is much more common in high tax ("Blue") states due to the
state/local tax deduction. This tax "cut" is targeted to raise taxes on blue
states by eliminating that.

The standard deduction increase is a bit of a trick, since they removed the
personal deduction. So it's not a "doubling" of the standard deduction, but an
increase of a few thousand. It is not enough to cover the removal of other
deductions for many middle/upper-middle class families.

