
Dueling Scar - diodorus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dueling_scar
======
lqet
You can still see "Schmisse" in Germany today, although they are very rare.
Here is the former CEO of Allianz with one:
[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a8/He...](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a8/Henning_Schulte-
Noelle_hires.jpg/800px-Henning_Schulte-Noelle_hires.jpg)

AFAIK (the article also mentions that), the concept of duelling is still very
present (and often a requirement) in German, Austrian and Swiss fraternities,
but they now wear protection [0]: [https://sensor-
magazin.de/app/uploads/2015/09/CorpsHassia_St...](https://sensor-
magazin.de/app/uploads/2015/09/CorpsHassia_StickUpStudio03.jpg)

[0]
[https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paukbrille](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paukbrille)

~~~
waschl
The protection for this kind of fencing was practically the same during the
last hundred years. Depending on the city they are different, the Paukbrille
is default everywhere, others like nose or ear protection are treated
differently depending on the local rules.

~~~
lqet
Why then are the scars such an uncommon sight nowadays? Is it because the
medical treatment of the wounds is better or because there are less duels
nowadays than 100 years ago? Or is it because in the past, students did
everything to get a scar (including slicing themselves open with a razor
blade) because it was seen as a sign of honor?

~~~
morsch
Their membership has dwindled as their reactionary values have gone out of
fashion.

~~~
lqet
According to Wikipedia, German speaking fraternities have 190.000 members [0],
which is around 0.19% of the population of Germany, Switzerland and Austria
(EDIT: see comments below, most of them are "nichtschlagend", meaning they
don't duel). Compare this to 34.000 _students_ in the German empire in 1900,
which was under 0.1% of the population. I would assume that not every student
was member of a fraternity back then, so the number of active fraternity
members was even lower. Now, I do not know if the 190.000 members include non-
active members as well, but I don't think you can generally say that their
membership dwindled significantly over the last 100 years. Also, after
studying in a University town in Germany where fraternity live is still very
present, I don't think you can generally say that these fraternities are
reactionary and/or right-winged (although there membership is, on average,
much more conservative than the general population). I only noticed one common
denominator among all of them: a massive consumption of alcohol.

[0]
[https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studentenverbindung](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studentenverbindung)

~~~
morsch
I saw the Wikipedia article. The number isn't properly sourced, but it's
believable enough. The closest attribution is this journalistic article[1],
which doesn't have the number. It also refers to the dwindling relevance in
the past decades, which I was thinking of rather than going back a century.
I'll let DeepL translate:

 _However, what sounds pleasing from the point of view of the student
fraternities is different on the bottom line. "Despite the new admissions we
have a minus of about 200 members per year", says CV managing director
Weiskorn. This is due to the fact that the vast majority of members are older
academics, some of whom die every year. This development is in line with the
long-term trend that can be observed overall among the student fraternities:
"According to information from the cross-corporate mergers CDA and CDK, the
number of fraternity members declined significantly between 1997 and 2009,"
says political scientist Kurth. "This downward spiral is accompanied by a
massive loss of importance." Less than one percent of all students are now
organized in corporations._

It's worth mentioning that most fraternities don't duel. Dueling fraternities
are the reactionary minority of a conservative minority.

[1]
[https://web.archive.org/web/20141129111313/http://www.wdr.de...](https://web.archive.org/web/20141129111313/http://www.wdr.de/wissen/wdr_wissen/themen/schule_beruf/aktuell/2011/10/studentenverbindungen.php5)

~~~
hobofan
> Dueling fraternities are the reactionary minority of a conservative
> minority.

As someone that knows quite a few people from dueling fraternities (recent
graduates), I don't think that's a fair generalization (even though that's the
common trope). There has been a lot of organizational changes in the last two
decades around one of the biggest associations for dueling fraternities (DB),
where a lot of fraternities that didn't align with their reactionary views
left and founded associations of their own. As a result of that, DB is now
half of its initial size. And there are probably also a few that didn't leave
where the younger generation has more progressive views, but they weren't able
to convince the old inactive members (which are the bulk) to leave.

So yeah, they are generally of a conservative political mindset, but I would
say that the strong political tendencies portrayed in media and hearsay only
apply to maybe ~1/3 or less of dueling fraternities.

~~~
cycomanic
I assume by DB you mean the Deutsche Burschenschaft, which still includes the
majority of fraternities not just the ones that duel. You are correct that
many left, but that was not because the DB moved to the right it was more that
generally society became more and more critical. The same fraternities did not
have any issues for many years that several of the prominent members
fraternities of DB had Neonazis in key roles. To give a taste of the views
held by many fraternities. Most (90%) do not allow women members, many do not
allow members from migrant backgrounds (and the ones that changed only did so
in the last 10 years or so). When Germany still had military service
(technically it's just "paused"), most fraternities did not allow members who
had done "Zivildienst" which is the substitute where you work in hospitals,
retirement homes...

~~~
hobofan
My point is that what you call "the same fraternities" are not the same
fraternities anymore. Younger, more progressive (compared to the status quo of
the fraternities) members join, and older less progressive members leave
(die).

I personally don't share the values of fraternities, and would never join one,
but I've also come to see that they can be a good station for young
adolescents leaving their parents homes for the first time, if done right, and
would also love to see them open up to more diverse groups of people.

In the last years, community structures for teenagers/adolescents (e.g. sport
clubs, scouts) are becoming less and less popular, and I'd hate for that trend
to continue, as I personally wouldn't be the same without them, had they not
existed. I'd rather see them reform than be shunned out of existence.

------
serf
I have a gash across my hand from cutting myself as a kid on a bare ATX case I
was pulling a motherboard out of.

A friend spooked me while I was at work on the motherboard, I quickly
recoiled, but my hand caught the razor sharp edge of a stamped steel case.

The scar is still there, and fairly large. I've always called it my geek
dueling scar.

I guess the ATX case was the winner?

~~~
lonelappde
The case is just a skeleton. Is the computer still alive?

~~~
kencausey
I think you mean 'exoskeleton'.

------
motohagiography
If you have known rugby players, a north american equivalent today would be
cauliflower ear from "the hooligans sport played by gentlemen," or collegiate
wrestling, and the less-U brazilian jujitsu. The culture of initiation and
rites of passage is rarer today because it shames people who lack whatever
virtue the initiation is intended to recognize.

------
waschl
German fraternity guy here. Did such fencing with sharp weapons three times,
but was good enough to only receive one small scar. AMA :-)

~~~
throwaway_pdp09
There's plenty of nerves running around the face and due to the amount of
bone, probably necessarily close to the surface. Are there occasions when
these get severed leaving the recipient less able to control their facial or
jaw muscles?

~~~
waschl
Never heard about that, and I heard a lot of stories in the last 15 years
about fencing.

~~~
hobofan
I don't think with functional loss, but severance of nerves there happens very
very rarely. A few years ago a friend of mine had some jaw nerve/muscles
severed, but regained full functionality.

------
9nGQluzmnq3M
Dueling scars are still a thing in Germany today. Here's an interesting first-
person account: [https://travel.stackexchange.com/questions/69224/how-can-
a-t...](https://travel.stackexchange.com/questions/69224/how-can-a-tourist-
obtain-an-authentic-duelling-scar)

~~~
philshem
cool, thanks.

(that link goes to the question. here's a direct link to the first-person
account:
[https://travel.stackexchange.com/a/69363](https://travel.stackexchange.com/a/69363))

------
kaskakokos
Very interesting, thanks. Documentary about it:
[https://youtu.be/lUh5exBJXBU](https://youtu.be/lUh5exBJXBU)

------
jpopesculian
I live in Austria, and it's worth noting that the scars are heavily associated
with old fashioned values, conservatives and nationalists and are very rarely
seen nowadays

------
devchix
This is amazing in that one would endure pain and disfigurement to advertise
social standing, but I guess I speak from a time where there are other ways to
display class standing. Dueling fell out of favors in the French aristocracy
because ... wait for it ... the lower and middle class started to duel in
emulation of the upper class. Although in the US, I read that it declined
because it became barely concealed cover for extra-judicial killing.

Now I'm on a train of thought that wonders what the customary analogous marker
of status for women would be. That is, they all seem to be external (jewelry,
ballgowns, high-status relatives) and not marked on the body.

~~~
ken
Modern people suffer “pain and disfigurement” in other ways to display their
status, high or low. Piercings, tattoos, branding, smoking, drinking, tight
shoes, tanning, etc. We still do terrible things to our bodies for style. That
never stopped.

------
tuyiown
This reminds me that as a young boy I romanticized facial scars, and that
sentiment was shared by a friend of the same age. I also remind this as a bit
of a taboo, and I felt connected with him when we talked about it.

Looks like those feelings did not entirely came from nowhere

~~~
jaclaz
I am old enough to have played as a child with G.I.Joe action figures, and
they (all?) had a scar (on the right cheek) that looked like being "manly".

------
domenici2000
I remember watching a Joe Rogan episode and they mentioned this. Apparently it
was a big nazi machismo kind of thing.
[https://youtu.be/3MZr5J5DOfk?t=550](https://youtu.be/3MZr5J5DOfk?t=550)

------
nigerian1981
Reminds me of an episode of Tales of the Unexpected set in a German university
[https://youtu.be/naiTvr8TICI](https://youtu.be/naiTvr8TICI)

------
hbarka
Medieval badge of honor. Today it seems so ridiculous.

------
antibland
> It was important to show one's dueling prowess, but also that one was
> capable of taking the wound that was inflicted.

The modern day engineering equivalent to this is HackerRank.

------
badrabbit
Was this to impress women or society at large?

~~~
watwut
Other guys in the peer group?

------
jeddaktarkas
That might explain the origin of why so many fictional Nazis in movies have
facial scars.

------
chadlavi
Feel very glad I live in a society where I don't have to mutilate myself for
the sake of toxic masculinity.

~~~
amelius
Just wait until this hits mainstream social media.

