
I cannot afford to go back to engineering school - ingrid
https://medium.com/p/4ee09a99696e
======
rayiner
I agree with the ultimate sentiment, which is that it's generally inadvisable
to try and pay your way through school these days. The federal government will
let you and your parents borrow as much as you need to pay for school, and
you'll make more money after you finish your degree, so your efforts are
better spent trying to finish in as few semesters as possible to minimize the
amount of money you need to borrow instead of trying to pay for things as you
go.

This is an area, unfortunately, where kids from wealthier families have a huge
advantage. Even if your parents aren't willing to pay for college for you,
they are much less likely to be hesitant to take PLUS loans on your behalf
that they expect you to pay back. And as a general matter, people who came
from wealthier backgrounds are much less afraid of debt and leverage.

I'm not saying that it's the most desirable state of affairs. My total cost of
attendance in the early 2000's at Georgia Tech (in-state) was only $10-12k
(including housing and food, tuition was just a few thousand) which I could
make during the summer. But that's increasingly something that's not possible,
even at state schools. And under the new paradigm, debt is the way to go.
Especially with the new PAY-E repayment terms.

~~~
hga
Is there still a screw case for "kids from wealthier families" when the
families refuse to help?

At least during the '80s, I was told I was ineligible for _any_ financial aid.

~~~
superuser2
Yep. If your parents are wealthy and don't want to help you, you are most
definitely not going to a high-end school, not even a state flagship. At that
point community college is the only reasonable option (because it's actually
possible to earn enough without the degree to cover the cost).

You couldn't really have it any other way without drastically altering the
structure of higher education: the alternative is that everyone's parents will
"refuse" to pay and the financial aid system would be totally overwhelmed.

I am _incredibly_ lucky and _incredibly_ thankful that my parents value high-
quality education and come from a tradition of academics who help their
children through college. Some of my friends who are far smarter than me had
to give up on dreams because their parents don't understand how inflation
works and think you can still pay your own way through high-quality undergrad
in the US.

That is, until you get to the high-end Ivies. Harvard would have cost me
$12,500 over UW Madison's $24,000, but I was never going to get accepted
there.

~~~
bradleyjg
The financial aid system shouldn't be pre hoc means tested, it should be post
hoc means tested. 18 years old is old enough to vote, marry, and enlist in the
military. The government ought not to be looking at parents to foot the bills
for legal adults.

Something like the Harvard Law School debt repayment program:
[http://www.law.harvard.edu/current/sfs/lipp/participant-
cont...](http://www.law.harvard.edu/current/sfs/lipp/participant-
contributions/scale.html)

If a given college is worried that such a plan will bankrupt it, perhaps it
should reconsider the value of the education it is providing.

~~~
superuser2
Students do not have anything close to enough money to cover the actual cost
of their education before earning it.

The value of an education I can pay for by mowing lawns is _going_ to be lower
because that necessitates zero research, extremely poor student:faculty
ratios, etc.

The solution, to me, is to drastically increase government's share of the
burden. But try introducing _that_ in Congress.

~~~
bradleyjg
The schools should lend students their education. They are in the best
position to underwrite such loans, and such a system would eliminate the
current perverse incentives the schools face.

------
SholaJS
Have you ever worked hard for something and then realized it wasn't enough? Or
worse, working hard brought you to this point, alone and unable to pay for
school? It's clear that if she's writing this, she's trying talking to
financial aid. She's tried saving as much as possible for school. She's tried
all the options... but none were left for her. I go to Stanford and I found
myself in a slightly similar situation on a smaller scale. I had $1.2k in debt
before the start of the year. Yes you read that right, just over one thousand.

Well... Stanford won't disperse financial aid if you have a balance of over
$1k. So, I had 2 days before school started and I didn't have the money to
head back to school. No matter who I talked to or who I called, the story was
the same. That $1k was my responsibility but to be honest, I didn't have it.
That summer I barely made enough to support myself. I also maxed out my credit
cards and because of my family situation, I didn't have a cosigner that could
help me co-sign a private loan. I also couldn't apply for a loan through my
school because that was also considered financial aid. That night I cried...
so much. I called my financial aid office over and over only for them to tell
me the same thing. I called relatives. I even begged my brother for a small
loan just so I could register for classes (which he never gave btw). The next
day at work I burst into tears for seemingly no reason at all. Why should I? I
go to a school with all the bells and whistles. Why would that be a concern?
Had a sorority sister not heard me crying, I would never have gotten the money
to enroll.

It's because the system is broken. This story is not about amounts or what she
"could've done," it's about the reality of being in a situation you can't
possibly control.

------
NamTaf
The US university loan system is fucked.

We have a government-run loan scheme called HECS. You defer your university
fees throughout the duration of your studies, apparently no matter how long
they last. The programme is not means tested at all, so it is available for
every single domestic student studying uni here, no matter what.

That loan is then paid back only once you start earning more than a threshold
amount of taxable income (this year, $51,309 - it's not a low income by any
stretch) and the payment amount is graduated depending on how much over you
earn, from 4% of your income at that threshold amount to 9% once you hit
$95,288 or above [1]. There is no real interest charged on the debt - the loan
is only indexed to CPI every year, so that the real cost of the loan amount
doesn't change. The repayment is treated like tax - either taken out as you
earn your wage or squared every year upon doing your tax return.

The perk that rich people get is that if they pay their bill upfront (that is,
each semester as they study), they get a 10% discount on the total cost of the
tuition for that semester (apparently, off memory it was 25% when I went
through about 5-10 years ago). If you put it on HECS, you instead pay the full
amount.

Oh, and also for every domestic student, a semester of full-time study costs
on the order of $3000-$5000, so a 3 year degree is about $18k-$30k of the
above debt [2], depending on what you study. It's heavily subsidised by the
government.

The system is funded, in part, by international students, who pay the full fee
amounts (no government subsidy) if they choose to study here.

The major criticism of the system is that students can just incur this debt
then flee the country. If they earn no taxable income here, they never have to
pay it back no matter how much they earn overseas. I can't really think of an
easy way to resolve this because it's impossible to garnish income from
another country. Nevertheless, the system works reasonably well.

[1]:
[http://studyassist.gov.au/sites/studyassist/payingbackmyloan...](http://studyassist.gov.au/sites/studyassist/payingbackmyloan/loan-
repayment/pages/loan-repayment#HowMuchWillMyRepaymentsBe)

[2]:
[http://studyassist.gov.au/sites/studyassist/helppayingmyfees...](http://studyassist.gov.au/sites/studyassist/helppayingmyfees/csps/pages/student-
contribution-amounts#2013)

~~~
lysium
I don't see how HECS is a lot better than the US system.

"Poor" people still have to pay 10% (accumulated) interest on the loan (it
does not matter if the interest is called 'discount') and you still leave the
system with a loan of $18-30k.

If a country wants to advance technologically or academically, it should have
cost-free universities like there are cost-free schools. Why do people not
understand that?

~~~
frogpelt
Why do people not understand that many people are poor not because they were
born into something less than a utopia but because they are lazy or happy that
way or they make bad decisions or are just plain ignorant?

Have you once stopped to consider that there may not be anything close to a
perfect system for lifting people out of poverty?

Perhaps a system that provides possibility that requires loads of effort to
take advantage of is the best that can be done.

A country simply cannot pay for the aggregation of "necessities" that the
populace dreams up.

~~~
wjk
In a lot of first world countries people get PAID to go to university.
Expecting 17-18 year old's who finished high school to have tens of thousands
of dollars to be able to go to good universities is beyond stupid.

~~~
frogpelt
You should read this book: [http://www.amazon.com/Debt-Free-Outstanding-
Education-Schola...](http://www.amazon.com/Debt-Free-Outstanding-Education-
Scholarships-Mooching/dp/1591842980)

------
chernevik
Are you a US citizen? If so, write your Congressman. Write the rep for the
University's district, your home town rep, and the senators of both states.
Make the letter one page, and attach a narrative with the gory details and
figures. Give them details on how to contact the financial aid office, the
dean's office, and any student ombudsman.

The idea here is to capture attention (short, punchy letter), provide all the
ammunition a staffer needs to make a phone call asking what the hell is going
on (the attachments), and the targeting information.

Send 'em hard copy, to both the DC and the local district office. Wait two
days, send an email. Wait a day and call, asking to speak with someone in
reference to same. You won't get the Congressman, of course, but if you get a
competent staffer they'll know how to look into the matter and make people
uncomfortable enough to do better. Get someone who's worked in the district a
few years and they probably play tennis with someone at the University.

These offices are heavily dedicated to constituent service. If you get their
attention and make it easy for them to investigate, some staffer will pick
this as a lay-up "good deed for the day."

Congress doesn't have jurisdiction, of course, but any public institution
steps to when the office calls. They'll pay attention, and they may very well
look harder for some discretion to fix this.

The overall system is, of course, stupid. That won't get any better, it's a
set of compromises among reasonable sounding concerns that have amounted to a
Kafka-esque impossibility. But there is a lot of discretion in the joints --
if you can make someone notice this particular glitch, it might get fixed.

~~~
patio11
My brother used to work in constituent services. This is spot on.

------
epistasis
This is broken, and it shouldn't be this way. There are far too many broken
bureaucracies in modern society, both governmental and corporate. And most of
these impede those with the fewest resources or capabilities to work around
them. Just because we've been trained to think that government or corporate
policy is supposed to be complex and broken, doesn't mean that we shouldn't
try to improve.

Without a ridiculously good merit-based scholarship from a great school, I
never would have been able to attend any of the top-tier schools into which I
had been accepted, because my parents' money was counted as my money, even
though their money was clearly not mine, and not something that I could choose
to spend.

~~~
anologwintermut
The flip side to this is I know someone who went through the legal steps to
have their parents money not be counted as theirs and got huge scholarships.
Trick: Their parents still supported him and were worth about 100 million. So
he got a nice Mercedes(2 actually, he crashed one) and cheap college.

It's a flawed system, but simply not counting your parents money is an even
more flawed system.

~~~
epistasis
IMHO, it's far more of an error that those without privilege/money are denied
access to education than those with privilege/money get an undeserved benefit.

This doesn't just affect the individual, it affects all of us who are trying
to hire good engineers. The smaller the number of people that are allowed to
attempt an engineering degree, the fewer that will earn them. Every single
potential engineer that is prevented from entering the field because of
education hinders us.

Trying to bring this back to HN a bit more, I think that entrepreneurs and
capitalists should realize (and you may already be on the same page with me)
that they are in essence farming society; they are leveraging and multiplying
the work and efforts of many others in order to enrich their own wealth and
the wealth of others. The more fertile the soil, the more the entrepreneur can
grow. For technology based capitalists, a more educated society provides far
more fertile soil both in terms of workforce and potential customer base.

~~~
solistice
In Germany, there's the Duale Hochschulreife, where students apply to
companies and colleges. The company will then pay for your degree in exchange
of your working for them during the breaks and some additional periods fully
sanctioned by the University in question. They also pay you a wage for the
time and usually offer you a full time job after you've graduated.

The benefit for the companies which do this is that they've essentially
trained engineers allready familar with their company culture, technology
stack and working procedures, which require no additional time to train. Also
it's beneficial for the image of the company.

The benefit for the students is that they graduate debt free and with solid
job prospects (since they allready have one).

------
mchannon
Across this country, this very month, legions of rubes will be getting low-
interest student loans to enroll in psychology, general studies, and undecided
major degree programs, paying $40k per year, only to drop out shortly
thereafter with a huge financial hangover and little ability to pay for it.

In contrast, an electrical engineering degree will easily pay for itself,
particularly if you've managed to bootstrap yourself to a third year.

Why haven't you addressed student loans as a vector for finishing a highly
lucrative degree program? Seems like you are (forgive the term) a poster child
for student loans.

~~~
HarryHirsch
You say with great conviction that EE is the way to go, but with the world
being what is is, who can predict the future these days?

In the early 2000s a degree in chemistry was considered a safe bet, especially
with a biochemistry PhD tacked on. Then there was the 2008 recession, the
great round of layoffs at the major pharmcos, combined with the offshoring of
early discovery. If anyone says they feel cheated I'm not going to disagree.
I'm not going to use the word "rube", _and neither should you!_

At the moment medical school is what the kids at my university are shooting
for, _that_ used to be the ticket into a safe career, but one thing is clear:
healthcare in this country is in need of reform. I cannot say how it is going
to look, but I will not say that taking out five-digit loans for medical
school is a good idea.

And who can tell about EE? If they offshored chemistry they will offshore
design. It's going to happen, the pharmaceutical industry has provided the
blueprint.

~~~
carlosdp
Dude, you went through like 5 different unrelated issues there o_o. But to
your first point, the original commenter was stating that EE is a safe bet
now, and therefore will likely be in 2 years when the OP graduates.

~~~
iyulaev
"Just wait until he gets Pfizered."

On a long enough time scale, everyone will get "Pfizered." What makes you
think this is likely to happen soon? Genuinely curious, as a practicing (sort
of) EE.

~~~
HarryHirsch
I'm looking at Albany Molecular. That is a contract shop in Albany, NY. Ten
years ago they were still doing contract work there, and they advertising
themselves as being in Albany. That was the downside, but the upside was that
cost-of-living in Upstate NY is low.

Nowadays the work is done in Hydarabad, Shanghai and Hungary, and what is left
stateside is supervisory work. I think we are seeing a trend in EE towards
contract shops. The only thing that's yet missing is for the contract work to
be done overseas.

~~~
randomdata
In fact, I seem to recall some recent articles about the EE profession showing
growing concern about the increasing unemployment rate in the industry. It is
still quite low, especially compared to the national average, but perhaps is
indicative of a trend?

------
CyruzDraxs
I couldn't even afford to get INTO university. By 18, I had to pay $1000/month
rent or get kicked out. My family had NO money saved to help with college. I
wasn't eligible for any scholarships I could find. The city I was in paid
minimum wage for EVERYTHING, even skilled work. I worked $8/hour doing web
development.

I tried saving up enough to even just move away. 3 years later, and not a
penny ahead, I just threw caution to the wind and plunged myself deep into
debt to get the hell out of there.

A year later, I've made more than I did in those 3 years put together. I'm
still in debt, but I'll comfortably be out in 6-8 months. At this point,
university would only be of value to me if I felt like immigrating to the US.

The point is, if your situation sucks, change it. If school doesn't seem
viable, skip it. Find a workaround. The point is not acquire a piece of paper,
the point is to prove your worth.

~~~
tjbiddle
Hey - Just wanted to say great job on taking the plunge to get yourself out of
that situation. That really takes a lot of courage throwing yourself into an
unknown situation like that - I really hope others can learn from your
experience if they're in a dire situation as you were.

~~~
CyruzDraxs
It's difficult to escape that sort of situation, but it doesn't get easier. It
gets harder, and faster-paced. And that's a good thing.

Adversity is a force that not only pushes us back when we feel fear, but also
pushes us forward when we feel determination. How much you want a thing will
determine which way you move.

------
heimidal
Given my experience in a similar situation several years ago, I don't think
you have explored all of your options. Your Expected Family Contribution (EFC)
and need-based limit may have changed, but there other ways to pay for school.
(All of the following assumes you haven't already hit the overall government
loan limit; if that's the case, you're at a university you honestly cannot
afford.)

For example, the Stafford loan program offers unsubsidized loans (meaning
interest accrues while you are in school) to all eligible students regardless
of need. The eligibility requirements for these loans amount to being legally
allowed to attend school in the US and not being in default on existing
student loans.

As an independent student, you should be able to borrow up to $12,500 in
unsubsidized loans directly from the government, regardless of your EFC. It
will be more expensive than your other loans in the long term, so you should
weigh the cost of two years of additional interest against not finishing
school.

All of that said...

Something really feels wrong about your financial situation. The automatic-
zero Expected Family Contribution limit for an independent student is $24,000.
Assuming you were living on student aid from January to May and made
$25.85/hour, 40 hours a week from June to December, for a full 30 weeks
(unlikely given holidays, etc), you should have made right around $31,000 pre-
tax. If that's the case, your EFC should be a _maximum_ of $7,000, but
probably closer to half that.

My bet: your FAFSA EFC is incorrect. Find the worksheets and manually work it
out for yourself.

------
susi22
I consider myself very lucky. I did my undergrad and never struggled with
money. My parent never supported me with a dime since they didn't have much. I
didn't have any scholarships. I saved up some money from high school and used
that for the first year of college, then started working as an co-op. How did
I do it? I went to school in Germany. That's also where I'm from. Back then
there was no tuition and I only paid 120 Euros of administration fee per
semester. I had it easy. I could study freely, I had everything I needed and
the beer at the universities' vending machine was cheap. Life was good. Back
then in 2004 I never read any English/US news or community web sites. I didn't
know what college was like over there.

After I graduate came to the US and I've been living in a typical college town
at the east coast for ~7 years. I have many undergrad and graduate friends
most of which are American. I'm _BAFFLED_ at the simple acceptance of this
rip-off fucked up higher education system. It's not even a topic ever that our
local University President just raised tuition by another 5% this year. And a
~40% raise in the last couple year. In Germany, they started talking about
introducing a 500 Euro tuition in 2006(?) and introduced it in 2007. Students
where furious, they protested on the streets, they occupied the main
buildings. They raised there voices. They started petitions. The press was on
our side. They introduced them and students investigated on how the tuition
was going to be used (contract only allowed to use it towards better education
and not for maintenance/bills) and problems were discovered. Long story short:
In 2013/2014 there is only one state left that still has a tuition of 500
Euros. The rest abandoned it all.

I have asked this question many times:

Why do Americans not protest?

Take the French: they kidnapped their CEO and threatened to kill them (~2009).
They burned down parts of their factory. They raise their voice. Yet, with a
ridiculous policy here in the US, I see nothing ever happen. I heard there was
some protest about PRISM in S.F. last week. I frankly missed the coverage
about that since it may have been to small. There were bigger protests about
PRISM in Germany last week. This is sad and I don't understand it.

Students of America: Stop wining on Internet forum, they do not tend to often
get coverage of the media.

 _You want main stream TV coverage: Go on the streets and protest._

~~~
lotso
Students of America do protest. Here are a couple of examples.

UC Student Protests
[http://www.google.com/#bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&fp=7608e52397923e7c...](http://www.google.com/#bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&fp=7608e52397923e7c&q=uc+students+protest+tuition+hike)

Cooper Union Protests
[http://www.google.com/#bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&fp=7608e52397923e7c...](http://www.google.com/#bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&fp=7608e52397923e7c&q=cooper+union+tuition+protest)

CUNY Protests
[http://www.google.com/#bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&fp=7608e52397923e7c...](http://www.google.com/#bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&fp=7608e52397923e7c&q=cuny+protest+tuition)

Rutgers Protests
[http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&tab=ww#bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&f...](http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&tab=ww#bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&fp=7608e52397923e7c&hl=en&q=rutgers+tutition+protests)

~~~
stefantalpalaru
Don't forget Kent State University, 1970:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings)

------
mateyrose
This is a travesty, and one I witnessed as a college professor again and
again. Why does the US pretend that we don't have enough science and
engineering "smarts" among our own students, and seek talent from other
countries, when in fact our talent is right here, but unable to afford
tuition. Moreover, we hear quite a lot about the lack of women in science and
engineering fields.....and here is one who is passionate about engineering yet
cannot afford to complete her degree. Something is terribly wrong with this
scenario. Businesses: if you really want bright, gifted young women and
minorities in the engineering field, put your money where your mouths are and
pony up. The rewards will far outweigh your contributions.

------
rcoder
This closely mirrors my experience, though my "summer job" straight out of my
Freshman year of college was part-time cashiering at a pizza restaurant. From
there, I temped as an office worker at a startup, convinced them to hire me
full time and let me build databases, then pivoted that into writing Java
code.

After a year of work wherein I made about $25k, I talked to the financial aid
office and found out that my expected contribution towards tuition, room, and
board was likely to go from about $5k/year (barely covered via loans and
family support) to $15-20k, which was totally untenable.

My response was to drop out, keep coding, and figure out how to backfill the
CS knowledge I needed by working with smarter, more experienced people than
myself. 15 years in, it seems to have worked reasonably well, and I'm
regularly reminded how much easier my life has been not having tens of
thousands of dollars worth of student loan debt hanging around my neck
throughout my 20s.

To be clear: I know that the plural of anecdote is not "data", and I don't
want to suggest that the dropout -> tech industry path is easy or in any way
guaranteed. However, I think that it's a far easier field to get into than
many others if you have the aptitude and motivation to build some things on
your own and learn as much as you can from the process.

~~~
nazgulnarsil
"6 figure student loan debt" is a persistent but false meme. It implies a
different distribution of student debt than actually exists.

Average graduating debt was ~$23k last year.
[http://www.finaid.org/loans/](http://www.finaid.org/loans/)

~~~
rcoder
Yeah, I realized it was hyperbolic immediately after posting; hence the edit
to say "tens of thousands of dollars".

I also wasn't really trying to generalize; I was attending a fairly expensive
liberal arts school (albeit to study math) with 100% need-based financial aid,
and tuition alone doesn't cost nearly as much at most state schools.

------
lqdc13
My parents didn't help me either, but I had absolutely no problem with
tuition. And it wasn't because I paid it off after every semester.

Why not just take out loans and go to a state school? I went to a good
engineering state school in New York and many of my classmates got excellent
jobs after that. The tuition is only $5k per year. Total tuition and other
expenses can be easily paid off within a couple of years with an engineering
job. The interest rate is only like 5% for people with OK credit.

Regarding credit cards: It definitely does not make sense to use credit cards
to pay for tuition, because the APR is very high compared to student loans.

Edit: Regarding the amount you can take out in private loans: Discover lets
you take out like 50k per semeseter. This is way more than enough.

------
kyro
Hey, at least you're not $250k in the hole with an incredibly low 7% interest
rate, at the age of 26! What do you all think about a Kickstarter for student
loans? I'm looking for $300k in investment or to validate my idea by raising
$300k through the service.

~~~
randomdata
I like the idea. Money up front now, for a percentage of your future earnings.

~~~
johnpowell
Oregon is on it.

[http://www.salon.com/2013/07/11/oregon_students_partner/](http://www.salon.com/2013/07/11/oregon_students_partner/)

~~~
socillion
That's pretty exaggerated.

[http://www.oregonlive.com/education/index.ssf/2013/07/oregon...](http://www.oregonlive.com/education/index.ssf/2013/07/oregon_plan_for_tuition-
free_l.html)

------
hjay
I'm in the exact same situation. Except in my case, in Canada, and (only)
after 1 year of full-time courses.

I also did a paid internship, for $18 an hour at a major software company in
Vancouver, B.C. Now the Canadian government has decided that I have more than
enough (assuming a cost of living of 0 for a 20 year old that has to support
an elderly mother).

So basically, I have an income of 0 (aside from my freelance work), costs
running at ~$1600 CAN per month for basic shelter + food for 2 people, AND the
Canadian government is constantly on my back for student loan repayment. I did
not choose to dropout of college, I was (essentially) forced to by the
government.

Best part is, now any employer I talk to asks about the 1 year I spent in
college. I'm sure they assume that as a 20 year old, I am either lazy, stupid,
or irresponsible. But that couldn't be further from the truth. I've worked
18~22 hour days everyday of my life since I was 16, and I'm tired. Not tired
of a (somewhat) difficult life, but tired of the assumptions people make.
People in the government, people who have power of employment, people around
me who judge a book by its cover.

------
chatmasta
I'm in a similar situation from paid internships and my own business. My
advice: talk to your school's financial aid office and explain your situation.
They should be able to help you. At the very least, it's worth TALKING to
them.

(Disclaimer: I go to a need-blind school with very good financial aid. I don't
know how engineering/state schools will treat this. But it's worth TALKING to
them.)

------
mynegation
Every time the idea of basic income is discussed I think that universal
healthcare, subsidized education, and - possibly - targeted infrastructure
spending are much better approach.

The system is set up in a way that OP (and I am sure many others) found
herself in this strange valley, where you are damned if you do, damned if you
don't.

~~~
digikata
The reason that economists like basic income is that each recipient is free to
decide how to apply that income to best advance their lot in life. Any other
breakdown, and you get more overhead of policy and administration because you
are determining for a population some some mix of programs. The risk that you
fall into some policy gap, just as in the article, is increased at that point;
and the government is then paying both the benefit, and for a higher
administration cost to qualify people and distribute the benefit.

------
cinquemb
I have a feeling that there are going to be more and more stories like this.
Especially with 60% of Fed student loans non performant, interest rates
increasing, and the cost to acquire the piece of paper (and the "college
experience") increasing.

But Sallie Mae would have you think otherwise when their split goes through on
wall st. I have a feeling someone is going to get rich off of CDS backed by
securities on student loans… as for the rest of us, I guess we have to create
new paths in life to acquire and apply knowledge for the betterment of our
communities that we are apart of because going x times more in debt than the
generation before, to acquire knowledge to apply in a world that is
increasingly making it obsolete (as far as human labor is concerned in a
service dominated economy) seems like an exercise in futility and fiscal
suicide.

~~~
jloughry
I keep hearing that the US student loan situation is a 'bubble' that is going
to burst soon. Fine, but...what will that look like when it happens? I've read
Michael Lewis's books---if you haven't, do!---and consequently I think I
understand what happened during the mortgage crisis, and before that, M&A
fever. But what would a student loan default crisis _look_ like? Lenders can't
exactly foreclose on college degrees. What might take the place of vacant
houses in a student loan default crisis?

Seriously, I would welcome any speculative economic analysis here.

~~~
hga
What potentially happens is too many people stop playing the game, or the game
many schools require.

Harvard and MIT will be fine, but the schools that aren't worth $60K/year, or
less for e.g. higher tier state schools other than UC Berkeley, are likely to
see enrollment crashing. That's starting to happen with law schools.

------
graycat
Point 1: Likely what you want to learn you can learn well without going back
to school. Indeed, at a high end research university, it is in effect or
explicitly assumed that you can teach yourself.

If you are in software, then likely you are heavily self-taught. Well, being
self-taught in nearly all parts of academic engineering is easier than in
practical software if only because in nearly all of academic engineering the
learning materials are much, _much_ better written.

To do self-study in academic engineering, it is crucial to get some of the
best materials, usually, still, textbooks. For this, investigate and pick
carefully. Indeed, you should have little trouble finding what the favorite
textbooks are for what you want to learn -- likely can get enough just by
going to the Web sites of the most relevant universities, departments,
courses, and professors. For the engineering schools, don't be reluctant to go
right to the top -- MIT, Cornell, CMU, Georgia Tech, Stanford.

If you need more, then maybe send a nice e-mail to some professors, in a few
words explain your situation, maybe include a list of the candidate books you
have found, and ask for suggestions, say, the textbooks he's been using, on
the list or off.

Point 2. If you want an 'expensive' Bachelor's degree, say, for $50,000 a year
at an Ivy League university, instead shoot for a Masters or better yet a Ph.D.
from such a school. Why? In important ways, the graduate degree is faster,
easier, and cheaper than the Bachelor's. In my experience, at the best
schools, Ph.D. students rarely pay tuition anyway. And from the famous Ivy
League schools, it's generally easier to get accepted for a Ph.D. than for a
Bachelors.

Point 3: If you want a Bachelor's degree or need one (say, to get accepted for
a Master's or Ph.D.), then one option is just go to about the cheapest school
you can, maybe starting with just a two year community college and then
transferring to a four year college to finish your Bachelor's. "Don't pay a
lot for this muffler" \-- uh, Bachelor's degree. Everyone in higher education
understands that there are good students with little money or family
background in academics and respect such students. If you learned well, then
as you finish your Bachelor's you can get some high GRE scores which will look
great applying to a Ph.D. program and make up for starting at a community
college.

Point 4. Even following Point 3, to save money and get better results, still
emphasize self-study. That is, before taking the course, study the course on
your own first. Then take the course, lead the class, ace the course, amaze
the professor, and get glowing recommendations, say, to a good four year
college for your last two years, or from a four year college to a Ph.D.
program, as the best student he ever had, maybe get a scholarship. Besides,
this way might get to take extra courses at once, save tuition money, time on
campus, and expenses commuting to campus and look still smarter, all because
you just studied the material before you took the course.

Of course, this self-study stuff can work great for the more theoretical and
mathematical parts of engineering but work less well where you might need time
in an expensive lab. So, emphasize the theoretical and mathematical parts and
for the rest do what you can without a lab. Then in school, when you take the
lab course, you still have a head start.

E.g., on self-study, I got a Ph.D. in essentially applied math, but I never
really took freshman calculus. Instead, in my freshman year the poor school I
was at insisted I take some 'college algebra' which was beneath what I'd
covered in four years of math at a relatively good public high school. So, not
to fall behind, I got a decent calculus book and dug in. For my sophomore
year, I went to a much better college and started on their sophomore calculus
(right, never got course credit for freshman calculus), was likely the best
student in the class, was a math major, wrote an honors paper on group
representations, and got 800 on the Math knowledge GRE.

So, I covered freshman calculus well just on my own from just a calculus book.
You can too. Indeed, if you take a calculus course, mostly you learn from the
book anyway.

Just study the material from the book before the course instead of mostly from
the book (which usually you have to do anyway) during the course. If you get
hung up, then ask for some help, on-line, from some videos (if they help --
not all of them are good), knock on the door of a prof and ask a question,
etc. Tell him you are studying on your own and want to be clear on, say,

    
    
      f'(x) =  lim (f(x + h) - f(x))/h
              h --> 0
    

or some such. Mostly a prof's office hours are not very busy, and a prof might
answer one good question for you even if you are not in such a class or even
in his school. If he refuses, then to heck with him!

There are some poor textbooks out there, and some of the better books will
still have a poor chapter or two. A bad book or chapter can be a chuckhole in
the road but only if you let it. If some material seems not well written, like
drilling through bedrock, or needing prerequisites you don't have, then get
1-3 alternate sources, maybe just by photocopying some chapters from some
books in a library or buying some books as supplements. E.g., there is a book
on linear algebra by E. Nearing, and it quite good except it has a chapter in
an appendix on linear programming that is just awful. Nearing understood a lot
of linear algebra but not linear programming!

So, get copies of, say, the three best books. Learn mostly from the best book
and use the other two for alternate explanations (so that you won't get stuck
and won't misunderstand).

Now, textbooks are darned expensive, the latest editions, in hardcover,
commonly over $100 a copy. Three such books could set you back $300 -- bummer.
So, instead, in nearly all undergraduate courses in engineering, get used
texts, in good condition, 5-10 years old. Such books will still be plenty good
and will save you a bundle of money.

E.g., I took sophomore calculus from the text by Johnson and Kiokemeister. At
the time, it was also used at Harvard. It's a beautifully written, highly
polished book. Tough to write a better calculus book.

So right away from a Google search at

    
    
         http://www.amazon.com/Johnson-Kiokemeisters-Calculus-Analytic-Geometry/dp/020504218X
    

can see

    
    
         Johnson & Kiokemeister's Calculus with Analytic
         Geometry [Hardcover]
    
         6 used from $9.25
    

So, can get it for $10. Don't pay a lot for a great textbook.

Actually I got my copy 'used' from a student who had tried the course the
previous year and learned that he should major in English or some such
instead! More generally, due to such circumstances, a lot of used technical
books are actually in quite good condition.

You don't have to work all the exercises, but you should work enough exercises
so that you are sure you can work all or nearly all of them. A good textbook
will have in the back answers to half or more of the exercises; so check your
work with the answers. Occasionally an answer is wrong. If you suspect such,
then maybe e-mail the author! Or ask a local prof to check your solution and
impress him that you beat the textbook!

Occasionally let a difficult exercise go unsolved or ask for help; in some
books, 1-2% of the exercises are in there poorly written, out of place (need
material not yet covered in the book or not in the book), or are to see if a
student can recreate some brilliantly clever argument mostly unrelated to the
book. Don't let yourself get hung up on 1-2% of the exercises afraid you
missed something -- give such an exercise a good shot, then just ask for help
or drop it.

Continue this theme of self study, especially if you want to go for a Ph.D.
E.g., at one time the Web site of the Princeton math department just flatly
stated that the graduate courses were introductions to research by world
experts; no courses were given for preparation for the qualifying exams; and
for the qualifying exams students were expected to prepare on their own.
Indeed, in that case, why bother to be on campus in expensive Princeton, NJ?

So, broadly, you can get a Bachelor's paying little or no tuition.

Then for a Ph.D., or even some Master's degrees, the big trump card is having
published some research in a good, peer-reviewed, academic journal of original
research.

For how to do the research, that would need another post!

In the whole thing, nearly all the work was self-study from used textbooks,
and the tuition you paid was tiny. You cut down on time and cost commuting to
campus, eating campus food, etc. You aced nearly all your courses, and you
avoided a huge list of potential 'political' and other problems.

Learning is not a spectator sport but an individual thing with hard work, done
alone in a quiet room. You can blow a lot of time and money going to class
when what you really need is just hard work, alone, in a quiet room, which,
indeed, the courses won't much replace anyway.

Not everyone learns the same way. But, since you learned the material before
you took the course, the profs never get to see how you learned; you never
fell behind in a course; you aced courses, and you never got criticized for
your learning style.

Net, lack of money is no great reason not to get a degree, even a Ph.D., in
engineering. Indeed, the main challenge is just the learning and, then,
research; if you can do that, mostly on your own, then money for your degree
is not a biggie.

~~~
gems
You spent a significant chunk of your post suggesting self study. For
something like math, this is really really really unrealistic. Most pure math
textbooks don't have simple problems you can just check in the back. They're
multistep proofs that can be done in a number of different ways. Oh, and you
encounter plenty of material where you can easily trick yourself into thinking
that you really understand it when you actually don't. Additionally, there is
a standard of rigor that you don't experience at bad schools (or with no
schooling). You could be writing complete nonsense solutions and not even know
it.

Also: how are you going to self-study when you don't live at home? Studying is
a full time job.

~~~
stiff
I self-studied some amount of pure mathematics, having only an undergraduate
CS degree and while having a 40 hour a week day job, and while it's definitely
harder and slower than learning it at a university, it's not unrealistic. If
you look hard enough, there are books with proof-based exercises with answers
in the back (example proofs) that you can use to check your understanding
(Spivak's Calculus, books from Springer UTM series). For many other books, you
can find course pages online with homeworks+solutions, e.g.

[http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~oholtz/teaching.html](http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~oholtz/teaching.html)

has homeworks for Rudins "Principles of Mathematical Analysis", and Halmos
"Finite-Dimensional Vector Spaces". Finally most problem books (again Springer
has a nice selection) have very detailed solutions. Yes, there are proofs that
can be done in a number of different ways, but in my experience diverging too
far is not very common and in most cases some core ingredients have to make it
in in the end anyway. It's impossible to go through a lot of exercises
"writing complete nonsense solutions" like that, when you are precisely
checking your solutions against the given ones. For many types of exercises
there are also simple ways of validating your solution, for example, in
probability theory you can often do a computer simulation. In the end that's
what anyway has to be done in real world and in research work.

~~~
gems
It's unrealistic because I really think you need the social aspect of it:
collaboration and criticism. I didn't say you can't learn something on your
own sometimes.

Also lots of people have convinced themselves of lots of silly things. You can
probably find dozens of papers from people with bachelors in math (or no
degree) claiming they have solved P=NP. A lot of these turn out to be
completely bogus, but the authors nonetheless thought they were serious
attempts.

~~~
stiff
What are you exactly claiming then, what would it mean that mathematics self-
study is "unrealistic"? There is certainly a danger in not seeking external
validation of your work (or denying it), and being at a university is very
nice for getting that. But with some motivation I think you can get the
knowledge equivalent of an undergraduate degree in mathematics by self-
studying in maybe twice the time it would take at an university (I am speaking
from personal experience and assuming full time job and having some life, and
that you don't have kids yet). You can get feedback on the Internet as well
nowadays, or seek university-level tutoring. And there is no shortage of
people with degrees doing faulty P=NP proofs either.

Again, I agree doing it at the university is more effective way of doing it,
and if you have the possibility to do it, good for you! But most of us can
afford to dedicate at most 5 years to studying full time, and than other
responsibilities kick in and you can't do it anymore. The majority of your
life all the new knowledge you get will come from self-study. So you better
learn to do it.

~~~
mikevm
Having an undergrad CS degree is enough to self-study math, I believe. But
having no formal education in the sciences/maths is not (unless you are a
genius).

For me, merely pushing myself through a theoretical CS curriculum made me see
(and write) hundreds of proofs, hear them explained by professors, and see
non-trivial exercises solved during recitations. I don't think you can get the
same kind of experience by just reading a textbook, even if it does offer full
solutions to problems.

Maybe when there will be full video lectures for both lectures and recitations
for the basic math (or theoretical CS) curriculum you could self-study by
watching those and solving problem sets. Right now, the math courses offered
by Coursera don't seem to match college level, and their platform doesn't
really work for proof-based courses like Analysis, Linear Algebra (not the
applied kind), etc...

~~~
stiff
I learnt only a bit of discrete math in my CS undergraduate degree, I had
calculus and linear algebra but barely passed it by memorizing how to solve
concrete problems and by having merciful professors - I was already working
full time and had 4 or 5 courses going on, I just didn't manage to find enough
time to study properly. If you have bigger gaps in your math knowledge and
can't go to an university you just have to start at a lower level, there is a
wide selection of "intro to higher mathematics" books meant for people like
that, and if that level is still too high you might need to review high school
math, e.g. Serge Lang has a good "Basic Mathematics" review book, or you can
use Khan Academy videos etc. I myself had to review a lot of high school math
when I was starting.

MIT OCW has excellent courses for discrete math, calculus and linear algebra
and in some cases videos from the recitations are included.

[http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mathematics/18-01sc-single-
variab...](http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mathematics/18-01sc-single-variable-
calculus-fall-2010/1.-differentiation/part-a-definition-and-basic-
rules/session-1-introduction-to-derivatives/)

I also stressed a few times already I don't think it is "the same kind of
experience". But as long as you make an effort you will make progress and not
everyone can manage to fit a university degree in their schedule.

------
vaishaksuresh
International students face a worse situation. Students on F1 visa are not
even allowed to intern for 2 semesters in most universities. To make the
situation worse, the tuition is almost thrice the normal amount. Shitty deal
for students from countries whose currency's value is less than USD.

------
kkthnxbye
I was in a similar situation in Canada (but of course, total cost for a
semester in engineering school + housing + food amounted to about $8k - $9k).
With an internship that landed me about $22/hr post-tax, 40% of the total I
made was put towards paying for the next semester. That automatically kicked
me out of the low-income family grant which would've given me $8k a year.

I remember some of my friends saying they received more in grants and
bursaries than what I made in that 4 month period alone (with no effort, to
boot!), and that slightly discouraged me a bit, but one needs to remember this
is an investment that will pay off in the next few years.

That being said, I was enrolled in a software engineering program, but most of
my friends have found work in EE as well.

------
LanceH
It was my experience that every dollar I made came out of any potential
financial assistance package I could get. So making $15k in an entire year,
they expected that I could apply all $15k toward the school, which wouldn't
have covered tuition. There was zero incentive to work as far as paying for
school went, unless I could make substantially more than required for school.

I ended up just paying for school out of savings (I had worked 4 years before
my junior year). Another thing about savings is that they expected I could
spend 100% of my savings immediately. They don't even pro rate savings across
the multiple years required for a degree. Financial aid is for them, not for
the student.

------
GuiA
Sounds like you're smart and have skills in demand. Try to get a job at a bay
area company; living like a student should allow you to save enough money to
go back to college within 18-24 months (if you even want to go back by then).

------
fragsworth
Another stupid thing is you're allowed to write off your education expenses
from your taxable income, but only in the same year that you made the
expenses. The tax deductions can't get carried over into future years.

This effectively means almost everyone who gets loans for their education pays
full taxes on the money they used on that education. But if you have well-to-
do parents pay for your education, they get to write the expenses off and pay
much less in taxes during your college years.

It's a situation where wealthier people get a significant discount just for
being wealthy, and there's really no social benefit to having it be this way.

------
noonespecial
There should be a way for companies to invest in promising interns, paying
some of their tuition costs in exchange for a certain number of years
employment with the company afterwards.

While this wouldn't work for many fields, it would certainly help in cases
like this (and tech in general). It would seem that with as much as companies
pay for head-hunters and recruiters (and how much they whine about the lack of
quality candidates), it would be a no-brainier.

~~~
pliny
You are describing indentured servitude, which is illegal because it is a form
of slavery.

~~~
noonespecial
I'm not quite seeing that. Kobe signs a contract agreeing to play for the
Lakers. Musicians sign deals to work for record companies, often for "advance"
money up front and no guarantee of future payments.

Its just a contract. Mutually agreed upon. I'm sure it can be structured so
that the student/employee can exit the contract with a reasonable repayment
plan.

Are current student loans, _non-dischargeable through bankruptcy_ really that
much better?

------
zallarak
I can empathize. My only constructive comment would be to never waste time
complaining or exuding frustration. I understand your situation is tough, but
everyone who does anything worth doing will undergo hardship. Find a way to
make it work -- if it is impossible or not worth it, choose another route and
go on. Your route should never be one of complaint. I don't mean to sound
preachy, this advice comes from a sincere place.

------
nabnob
I'm slightly confused about the logistics of this because I also attended
Carnegie Mellon and received around $20k in financial aid per calendar year
(grants and Stafford loans combined), and my parents made over $100k.

If this isn't too intrusive - how much were you making when you received $16k
in financial aid vs. $104? Are you only including grants in this amount, or
does this also include low-interest student loans?

~~~
ingrid
I was actually at Pitt not CMU. I was not working when I received $16k,
although I did do a work study position that year. My income to get $16k in
financial aid because I had an income of zero. I had one grant in the 2011-12
year but for around $200.

------
digikata
I paid my way through the latter grades of college thanks to a somewhat
devious manager at my first summer internship. That manager transitioned me to
a part-time employee at the end of the internship period after the school year
started. In the latter two years of college I was a full time employee while
going to school. Now, I took five years to graduate a four year degree, but
since I was cashflow positive (yay low cost cal-state tuition) and employed in
a topical field, the extended time really didn't matter. Now the manager was
somewhat devious because I don't think the internships were necessarily
supposed to work that way for all interns, but really it worked out well for
both me and the company in the long term.

It would be worth probing the internship company in this case to see if some
similar arrangement could be made. (if the budget for tuition vs part/full
time pay works out, I did this in the 90's, no idea how it would work now).

~~~
aestra
Tuition is a magnitude higher now than it was in the 90's.

~~~
digikata
At Cal state in the 90's I was paying ~$4000 a quarter, now [1] it seems to be
$6000-7000. It's not ideal, but not an order of magnitude either.

Today, the gap is undeniably tighter between college expenses vs living wages
at available jobs. If you're sending yourself through college, working or with
a loan or some mix, it seems like a career ROI calc and a budget/cashflow calc
for during college is in order. You also might have some hard choices in
deciding not to pay a premium for prestige, and look for a solid education at
a discount at a less prestigious, but still perfectly functional college.

[1] [http://www.calstate.edu/budget/student-fees/fee-
rates/Tuitio...](http://www.calstate.edu/budget/student-fees/fee-
rates/TuitionFeesAllCampus.pdf)

------
japaget
I can't read the content. Instead, I get "Please sign in to continue" and a
suggestion that I sign in via Twitter.

~~~
japaget
I was finally able to read the content by changing "https" to "http" in the
link. Now even https works for me.

------
mgraczyk
I had a similar experience. After an 8 month internship making ~$30/hr full
time I ended up roughly about where I would have been financially had I not
done the internship and just stayed in school. I was really upset when I went
back to school, but now that I've graduated I look back on it and am just
thankful that I was able to spend those 8 months living somewhere new doing
something fun. (I would probably feel differently had I been unable to go back
to school after the 8 months).

That being said, I think it really is horrifying that our education system
rewards those students who stay behind and attend summer school more than
those who secure good internships. I've never met a talented developer or
engineer who didn't have at least 2 summer internships in undergrad. I have,
however, met a ton of shitty engineers who took plenty of summer classes.

------
zw123456
I entered Engineering school at a state University in 1974 and graduated in
1978 with a BSEE and NO loans. I was able to do so by working and going to
school, tuition was $216 per semester, which even then was very affordable. It
is a crime that today, this would be impossible. It is one of the greatest
injustices today.

------
johnpowell
I waited until I was 24 to fill out a FAFSA. Once you are 24 you don't need to
supply your parents info. I worked at a movie theater until I got a full ride
from financial aid. I got to party and get get that out of my system before I
started school.

And really, I am not sure how you couldn't get that any taxable income would
cut into what you get. I was a drunk stoner and knew it. During the summers I
got a real job and knew to never make over $9,500 in taxable income or it
would eat into my aid. I quit jobs before school started so I wouldn't hit
that number.

------
sev
Yeah, the financial aid system is pretty bad. A single woman I know who lives
alone got denied financial aid because her gross annual income was 31k instead
of the limit of 29k that financial aid requires. If you do the math and
include all average expenses for any single person, you'll see that there's no
way to pay for tuition and/or housing without a student loan in a situation as
this. Is financial aid only supposed to be for people who either have no job
at all, are completely poor, or are doing fraud?

~~~
woodchuck64
With just $2k off, how about making an IRA contribution and filing an amended
tax return.

------
originofspecie
I feel terrible for Ingrid, but I think the end of her article requires a
caveat. The financial aid system is a game, and learning the rules can save a
lot of money.

Lets assume that your taxable income was 27k.(36 weeks x 40 hours a week x $26
an hour)

You will be in the 15% tax bracket, so the total tax liability on your income
would be approximately(i'm assuming only federal income tax) 23k (27000*.85).
This is the number that is used on the fasfa. You had mentioned that you
suffered from some health issues and incurred medical expenses. Those are
deductible, and should reduce your tax bill, as well as the amount of money
that colleges should expect for you to spend on education.

Furthermore college 529 plans are something to look at when trying to fund
college education. Contributions to these plans are tax free, so it will
lessen your tax bill, especially if you don't work while you are in school.
Also the 529's in your name are expected to go towards your education at the
same rate as your parents income[1] this will help soften the blow of losing
the financial aid.

Finally, don't shy away from student loans, especially subsidized federal
loans. At around 4%, it is hard to find cheaper money, and wih subsidized
loans, the interest on these loans are tax deductible.

At the end of the day, the moral of your story shouldn't be "Don't take paid
internships they'll screw you in the end" and instead it should be "when you
start get paid a significant salary hire a tax professional to make sure I
hold on to as much of my moolah as possible."

You can put up to 5k in a Traditional IRA. Your deposits will be tax
deductible, and withdraws for education forgo penalties of withdrawing money
before your 59 and 1/2\. You will also pay for tax on it at the level of
income for the year you take the disbursements, so if you don't work your
senior year or make less money it could work out to your favor. The downside
of this strategy is that any money you put into the IRA that year will be
counted as income. So no gaming the system on this one.

[1][http://www.savingforcollege.com/intro_to_529s/does-a-529-pla...](http://www.savingforcollege.com/intro_to_529s/does-a-529-plan-
affect-financial-aid.php)

~~~
hga
It's very much not my impression that most people can deduct health expenses.
Here from the horse's mouth ([http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/2013-changes-to-
itemized-dedu...](http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/2013-changes-to-itemized-
deduction-for-medical-expenses)):

" _Beginning Jan. 1, 2013, you can claim deductions for medical expenses not
covered by your health insurance that exceed 10 percent of your adjusted gross
income._ "

Previously it was 7.5%, but it's nothing if you can't file a Schedule A to
itemize, and my very rough understanding is that few who aren't paying down a
mortgage can do so.

~~~
originofspecie
I may be reading this wrong, but from what I understand anyone can file a
Schedule A (which allows you to itemize your deductions), but in doing so you
give up the standard deductions for your tax bracket, which for a single filer
is 5350. So at 7.5% of her adjusted gross of ~25k which is $1875. So if her
medical expenses are less than 5350 it would most likely make the most sense
for her to take the standard deduction. Otherwise according to this info she
should be able to write off the full amount.

I could be entirely wrong about this. I am not a tax professional, but I do
think that a little bit of financial planning could go a long way in these
types of situatons.

~~~
hga
Ah, "can" was too strong, "saves money over taking the standard deduction" is
what I meant.

I noticed something about a 2% haircut when skimming Wikipedia's entry on
this, don't know if it would apply. Properly filling out a Schedule A would
also cost, either in paying a preparer or opportunity cost in learning how to
do it.

~~~
originofspecie
Agreed. These write offs were more of an after thought. It looks like she
could also write off her educational costs as long as they are to "advance her
career", which would effectively bring her gross taxable income pretty darn
low and keep the financial aid coming.

That is, of course, if she is footing the bill like she says and her parents
aren't helping her out.

------
jmilloy
I don't get it. Why can't you get loans? You don't pay them back while you are
in school, and afterwards the minimum cost per month is pretty low. I had
full, $16k per term FAFSA support for 12 terms, and then needed one more to
finish some things up (poor planning). Federal student loans saw me through.

Although, yes, it's immensely frustrating that they take whatever money they
can. I spent all the money I saved up from high school right before college so
they couldn't take it away.

~~~
ingrid
I did get offered the option to only take out a $104 subsidized Stafford loan
for the school year. Unfortunately, I cannot take out an alternative loan. I
am a US citizen and of the people that have offered to cosign a loan for me
they were rejected. So alternative loans are not an option.

------
superbaconman
At my current pay it'll take close to 10 years to pay off my college debt. The
only hope I have to shorten that period is to produce more value (I'm trying
my best), or get lucky with a startup (I'm in a good market). I know I took
the long investment, and I'm fine with that. I'm confident in my skills and my
drive, but I couldn't imagine being in a different market. My concern lies in
the arts and humanities. They are very important, but will suffer immensely.

------
gwbas1c
"Despite having federal loans and a work study job, I had to borrow money from
my friends and max out my credit cards just to make ends meet."

When I was in school, that was a red flag. Without knowing the details of
Ingrid's education costs and spending habits, it's just as easy to conclude
that Ingrid lived beyond her means.

Thus, before blaming the system, I'd want to know what Ingrid's numbers were.
She did intern for Intel, which pays very well and provides lots of
assistance.

~~~
nabnob
Yeah, the numbers don't really make sense. My parents made over $100k per year
and I still received about $20k in grants and low-interest student loans, AND
I worked part-time during the school year in addition to full time during the
summer.

------
anologwintermut
It's unclear if her financial aid was grants or loans. If they denied her
grants I'd say this (while unfair by current standards) is reasonable. Given
her internships, it's reasonable to say she could probably pay for a chunk of
her degree and certainly afford loan payments when employed later.

Now, of course, one wonder's why we are offering loans and aid to people who
can't get such a return on investment ( regardless of whether they need to pay
or not).

~~~
rquantz
If I remember correctly, FAFSA also limits how much money the federal
government will lend you.

~~~
heimidal
The government offers both need-based subsidized loans and unsubsidized loans.
The latter are available to anyone, regardless of need. They usually won't
cover everything, but they often cover a good chunk of your total bill.

------
encoderer
Have you looked to a bank or p2p lender?

The purpose of the student loan system to help extend credit to people who are
otherwise less creditworthy. It's not a perfect system but it sorta works. In
your case, you said you maxed out your credit cards. Presumably you managed
your credit effectively aside from that, and then paid it off. If so, your
Fico score should be high enough to qualify for a loan outside the federal
student loan guarantee program.

------
zek
I'm in a somewhat similar(though far less tough) situation. I am currently
paying for my school myself and I simply was not going have enough to afford
it even after my paid internship. So I opted instead to take a leave of
absence and work for a while. I think this option is making more sense as the
overall value of a degree declines, especially in fields like CS where a
degree is not necessarily a requirement.

------
Glyptodon
It's lame when a distant internship won't provide rent, but also possibly this
person is going a too expensive school?

It sounds like between the two internships combined they'd have made around
$30k total, no?

If so, that seems like just barely enough to cover living expenses and a year
at a public university with $4 to $7k in tuition and fees a semester.

Though it would be lame to have to spend 9 months off school to spend a year
in school.

~~~
socialengineer
She goes to University of Pittsburgh, which is a public school.

~~~
keiferski
Just for clarification (I'm a Pitt alum): Pitt is _sort of_ a public school. A
portion of the budget comes from the state, but not as much as many other
state schools (the California system, for example).

------
peterjancelis
It's a crazy system indeed and it's not only for scholarships that marginal
tax rates on the poor with benefits are often extremely high. Other examples
include people on disability who lose their benefits forever if they try to
work full time, even if they fail after a week.

It's going to be hard to change things because every little rule has people
making a living a living of it.

------
nathanfp
Ingrid really sorry to hear this. I had to take out loans to help pay for
college and found the entire process extremely convoluted and most aid offices
quite unhelpful. Ultimately, I think our schools and government should be
supporting students who are working hard to supplement loans with their own
income, not punishing them by reducing your ability to take out a loan.

------
ececconi
That was one of the reasons keeping me from doing a paid internship. My
scholarship included full tuition and even paid for a lot of room and board.
Furthermore, the university paid me an extra $15,000 scholarship just for
doing a dual degree in philosophy and engineering. Sorry to hear about your
story. It really does sound like a terrible situation.

------
tn13
I am totally stunned. Are you telling me that you are not going to fund a
student who does not have a degree yet but found a good enough job where she
gets paid? Man, in fact you need to raise the money given to her because it
will ensure one persona out of unemployment for sure.

------
gems
I am actually in a similar situation... except I'm in math. I can program
though :/.

And by "similar" I mean that I may have to drop out because I cannot afford
it. Loans from the government are not enough. Can't get private loans. Can't
get money from the parents.

------
BlackDeath3
I wonder if this applies to me at all. I'm working a paid internship in the
summer, and all of a sudden, no Stafford loans offered.

Does a late FAFSA impact Stafford loans at all? I'm fairly certain I still
made the deadline, but by no means was I an early submission.

------
catwell
I am French and liberal, my views on economy are considered extreme liberalism
in my country, but I when I read things like this I am even more thankful for
our education system.

The French scientific higher-education system is weird and misunderstood even
in other European countries, so here's a (very simplified) explanation of the
road I followed and how much it cost.

After high school, if you have good enough grades (say top 10%) you can enter
something called Classes Préparatoires, which is a rather intense scientific
(Math + Physics) preparation for competitive exams for the Grandes Écoles. It
lasts two years, three if you decide to repeat the second year because you are
not satisfied with your results at the exams (repeating the first year is
forbidden, if your fail you have to go to a regular University - which is also
cheap anyway -, but only 10-20% fail the 1st year).

There is a lot to say about how the way we are taught in Classes Préparatoires
should change, but there is something right about them: they are _completely
free_. Oh, and if you (your family) cannot afford rent and/or food, you can
get funding from the government for this.

After Classes Préparatoires, if you succeed at the competitive exams, you get
into a "Grande École" (Engineering School). Studies usually last three or four
years and you get a Diplôme d'Ingénieur at the end (basically what you call
MSc in the US).

 _All_ the top Grandes Écoles are public and depend on different ministries
(Education, Industry or Defense). The cost of studying there is below
€1000/year. You can still be subsidized if needed, and you are encouraged
(actually it is even mandatory) to make paid internships which pay for your
studies. Actually, the two top Engineering Schools (Polytechnique and École
Nationale Supérieure) even _pay students_ who study there.

Oh, and you are encouraged to go abroad. You can do an internship in another
country or go there to specialize during your 3rd year. In my case I went to a
British University to specialize in Distributed Computing. The cost of
studying there is much higher but since I was a guest student from another
European University I didn't pay (except campus rent). It also works with the
US, although I am not sure how: some friends did the same thing at Standford
and MIT.

In the end, I got two MSc-s (one in France and one in UK), and my tuition fees
for the entire thing amount to about €3000.

There are very few things I think a State should pay for, but top higher
education is definitely one of them.

------
ismaelc
Here are some summary snippets from the post -

    
    
        "That summer I started my first engineering internship for six months from June to December, making $25.85 an hour working for a well-known tech company.",
    
        "It made no sense for me to stay in school; the financial stress was affecting my ability to get work done, and subsequently my GPA dropped.",
    
        "This June, I was notified that my financial aid was reduced from $16,000 to $104 because I had made too much money in 2012, which put me in a higher income bracket to receive less financial aid.",
    
        "Every attempt to contact my financial aid office has been unhelpful.",
    
        "They have parents that pay for school and all their expenses, which makes their internship money pocket money."

------
cyberpanther
Your going to have to bite the bullet and take a private loan if you want to
finish school. It sucks, but that is the reality. I'm still paying my private
loans off after 10 years, so it may not be worth it.

------
evasion1
I can't afford to go back to school, even though I _desperately_ want to for
CS because I have $120,000 in debt from law school. Absolutely hate law and
going to LS was the biggest mistake of my life.

~~~
GuiA
CS is one of the easiest subjects to learn on your own for free. Have you
tried pursuing it this way? (eg. using Zed Shaw's free books, for example)

------
SamWhited
I did the exact same thing a couple of months ago; ended up getting a
reasonable job offer that will allow me to pay off my student loans. Higher
education is (more or less) a waste of money these days.

~~~
ethanbond
Uh, even aside from the invaluable life experience of college, the plan
financial statistics disagree.

------
lettergram
I'm in a similar situation, I just bit the bullet and took the loans.

------
Sindrome
Welcome to real life. Shit happens. Keep trying and it will get better.

~~~
Sindrome
Also, if the concept is so baffling, then good luck with understanding income
tax.

------
null_ptr
That site messes with the vertical scrollbar on Firefox Android, how hard can
it be to serve a page of text without doing any useless CSS or JS or who-
knows-what trickeries?

------
m_ke
Tell me about it. I just got my financial package last week and my aid went
from 46k to 2k, so I'll have to take out over $50,000 to pay for one year of
tuition.

------
fnordfnordfnord
"Students should be warned that doing a paid internship can negatively impact
your ability to finish up paying for school."

Or a job of any kind. Same thing happened to me.

~~~
hga
Don't know about you, but there was no way she could win. Her financial aid
package wasn't covering her costs, and making money to close the gap just
reduced the aid.

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
Same here, on my third attempt to get Fin Aid, I tracked my time spent working
on it. It was the first year that I received any money. It worked out to ~5
Dollars per hour.

------
praguebakerr
move to the Germany or to another country in Europe, (almost) free education
is still huge benefit when you compare it with states

~~~
_delirium
Scandinavia is a possibility, since there are many degree programs in English.
Germany is a fine choice too, but only if your German is sufficient to do
coursework at a university level in that language; English options are more
limited.

However not all programs will be free if you come from outside the EU.

------
clamprecht
Has the author tried the appeal process?

~~~
nknighthb
I'm not sure that's actually the wisest course of action at this point. No
matter what, it's almost certain she won't get as much aid as before, and
completely certain she won't do any _better_ than before, and what she was
getting before clearly wasn't enough.

It sounds like the author is now extremely well-positioned to get reasonably
good jobs and really start her career. Doing so and continuing her formal
education part-time may be the best choice.

------
dclowd9901
As a college grad with a degree in Journalism working as an engineer in
Silicon Valley, maybe my opinion on your situation can give you assurance:

So the fuck what. They just did you a favor.

------
slajax
"And then it will hit you. You spent 150k on an education you could have
gotten for $1.50 in late fees at the public library" \- Good Will Hunting

~~~
hga
Limited application to STEM subjects. Yeah, CS and EE can finagle that
nowadays (wasn't true for CS when I might have gone that route in the early
'80s), but the sciences require lab work that you generally aren't going to be
able to do, let alone afford, anywhere else but a school. And there are
serious safety issues as well, plus the minor detail for them that an
undergraduate degree is just a requirement to get your (paid for) terminal
Ph.D., unless you're willing to end up being a lab tech.

------
dannypurcell
Ingrid, If you are reading this then please take another shot at the FAFSA.
You are quite right that the computer systems and standard rules screwed you
over.

That is why Financial Aid Advisers (the ones at your school) can make
judgement calls on a case by case basis to override the computer system.

Specifically, there are two qualities of your described situation which
qualify you for such an override. 1\. You mentioned that you are couch surfing
with friends. This means you are homeless 2\. You made a good amount on
previous employment and your story seems to suggest that said employment is no
longer active. This means you have recently lost your job. According to FAFSA
guides for financial aid advisers, professional judgement may be used to
adjust parameters which are used to calculate your expected family
contribution.

Your situation appears to apply to several typical cases in which professional
judgement is recommended.

1\. "A student is considered homeless if he or she lacks fixed, regular, and
adequate housing. This includes students who are living in shelters, motels,
cars, or parks, or who are temporarily living with other people because they
have nowhere else to go."
-[https://fafsa.ed.gov/fotw1314/help/fahelp29a.htm](https://fafsa.ed.gov/fotw1314/help/fahelp29a.htm)

2\. "Special circumstances may include tuition expenses at an elementary or
secondary school, medical, dental, or nursing home expenses not covered by
insurance, unusually high child care or dependent care costs, recent
unemployment of a family member or an independent student, a student or family
member who is a dislocated worker (as defined in section 101 of the Workforce
Investment Act of 1998), the number of parents enrolled at least half time in
a degree, certificate, or other program leading to a recognized educational
credential at an institution with a program participation agreement under
section 487, a change in housing status that results in an individual being
homeless (as defined in section 103 of the McKinney-Vento Homeless Assistance
Act), or other changes in a family’s income, a family’s assets or a student’s
status. Special circumstances shall be conditions that differentiate an
individual student from a class of students rather than conditions that exist
across a class of students. Adequate documentation for such adjustments shall
substantiate such special circumstances of individual students."
-[http://ifap.ed.gov/fsahandbook/attachments/1314AVGCh5.pdf](http://ifap.ed.gov/fsahandbook/attachments/1314AVGCh5.pdf)
-[http://www2.ed.gov/policy/highered/leg/hea98/sec478.html](http://www2.ed.gov/policy/highered/leg/hea98/sec478.html)

All of this amounts to the your case calling for professional judgement by
your financial aid advisers. I do not know what made them turn you away before
but it may be as simple as not knowing. I had a similar situation in school
myself, it turned out that the first adviser I worked with was somewhat new to
their job and just did not know they could make a judgement call.

Never give up. If it seems like the system is broken, make it work for you. I
hope this information helps.

For anyone else who happens to know Ingrid Avendano or how to get her a
message, please pass this info along.

~~~
ingrid
Hi thanks for your reply. I actually I did do a dependency override in the
past and I have been listed as a financially independent student. I didn't
elaborate about it in the blog post because explaining it would be too
complicated to go into. Being listed as financially independent helped at
first because I qualified for grants and subsidized/unsubsidized government
loans, but now I don't even have grants and for this coming year I only got
$104 of subsidized loans to be able to take out. It has been difficult to get
in contact with someone that actually understands what is going on with my
financial aid.

------
bluedino
It's kind of a shame that financial aid is often given based on need, and not
ability.

~~~
muzz
That's the point of financial aid.

Merit scholarships exist for the latter.

------
avend015
Keep trying sista. You'll achieve your goals eventually.

------
tazzy531
>>"Students should be warned that doing a paid internship can negatively
impact your ability to finish up paying for school."

Students should be warned that crossing the highway blindfolded if unsafe.

Students should be warned that the stove could be hot if you leave it on.

At some point, people need to take personal responsibility for their action.
They need to understand how their actions effect them positively or negatively
and balance out those decisions. People need to understand that there is
nobody that is going to hand hold them through life.

~~~
babarock
She's not complaining or asking to be handheld. She's warning her fellow
students that _working to make money will impact the ability to pay for
school_.

It's counter intuitive. It's not obvious at all. It's barely mentioned or
talked about. It can cost (and it did cost her) a college degree.

I don't disagree with the sentiment of your remark, but it's completely out of
place here. She's simply warning others not to do the same mistake, since it's
an easy one to make.

