
I'm looking for a full-stack job like Mike Ross has at Pearson Spector - basdevries
I haven&#x27;t got a PhD but I can (at least) learn and think on that level. I am looking to learn by doing rather than go to an university and spend the next four years studying books.<p>What should I look for when searching for this not  so standard job? Obviously the person(s) I&#x27;ll be working with are much more important than the job or company itself.<p>I can write PHP, Python, js(by choice) and HTML&#x2F;CSS. I want to learn the ins and outs of bizdev, as well as an ability to test, validate and deploy ideas very fast + grow a product from 0 to +&#x2F;- 100k users.<p>I know this sounds much like all the things you do when running a startup, but I don&#x27;t want to go trough all the obvious mistakes the first time.
======
gphilip
> I haven't got a PhD but I can (at least) learn and think on that level.

How do you know this? More pertinently, how do _I_ know this? How can you
convince others that you are "at PhD level"?

Well, one way to do this is to _do_ something "at PhD level". Build something
which (i) is appealing to the kind of people whom you would like to have as
colleagues, and (ii) shows your mastery of the full stack (as you define it).
Put it up on GitHub, and let others see it. Show them the code, as the saying
goes.

What would such a thing be? Knowing what the "interesting" problems are is
part of "being at PhD level". So you probably already know what to solve, or
it will come to you if you think about it a bit.

Good luck with your efforts!

~~~
basdevries
Thanks for your answer :)

I think you've misunderstood a couple of things. Or more spefically: I haven't
been clear enough on a couple of things.

I know I can think on a PhD level, because I \- was smarter in some eareas
than my teacher in cs (who had a PhD in cs) \- I've worked with people who
mastered cs and during that time I felt like I was thinking on the same level
as they were. \- I could try to do an IQ test but most (smart)people notice
whitin a matter of minutes if the person in front of them is equally smart.

The thing you're missing tho, is the following: I'm Mike Ross before he meets
Harvey; I can pass the LSAT of cs but can't be a competitive programmer yet.

If i <em>was</em>, I would apply as an engineer at Google and learn these
things in my 20% time.

The Harvey I'm looking for must be able to teach me ao things how to be a good
one, and at the same time challange me to bring on new clients etc etc.

~~~
jacques_chester
> _I - was smarter in some eareas than my teacher in cs (who had a PhD in cs)_

Eligibility for PhDs isn't calculated by pairwise comparison.

It's judged by original research. Which requires a lot of study, a _lot_ of
study, just to take you to the outer boundaries of the sub-sub-sub-sub-field
your PhD happens to be in.

One subject I was taught in a quasi-postgraduate setting (in Australia we have
a kind of mini-PhD called "Honours") was evolutionary systems. In _one_
subfield of that topic, the original paper appeared about 30 years ago. A year
later there were a few dozen papers. Within five years there were _tens of
thousands of papers_. Conferences. Study groups in computer science
departments around the world.

To get a PhD in that field, you need to exhaustively search the literature --
surveying and reading potentially hundreds or even thousands of papers and
projects -- _just to figure out what has yet to be researched_. Just to get to
the _starting line_. That takes several years.

PhDs are hard work.

~~~
adamnemecek
TIL you don't get a PhD for being able to write PHP, Python, js(by choice) and
HTML/CSS.

------
tinkermake
The last part of your question/statement makes me feel you will have a very
hard time finding something suitable for you.

The reason I say this, and by far don't take this the wrong way, is that
mistakes, obvious or not, are an absolute requirement in business and in
successful software developers. Reason being, in order to innovate, you need
to treach into territory previously unexplored, meaning you need to accept the
fact that there is a 95% or more of a chance that something will inevitably
break, and it will break badly. Successful leaders not only accept failure,
they embrace it. There is so much someone can tell you about their failures,
and if you're lucky you may spot them happening to you, however there is no
comparison when it happens from your own experience. A good analogy is sailing
through a storm based on reading a book, or having sailed through a storm
before, which do you think will complete their journey?

I also believe a big part of the so-called "PhD thinking" is they are willing
to accept the fact that the 3-10 years of work they put in will be absolutely
destroyed by their peers. It's that willingness to take a chance that drives
them. Without it most things we know today would not exist

So basically, if you want your dream job, embrace failure and reach for the
stars. Make mistakes, fix them, and make different ones

------
zachlatta
As others have mentioned, you have a severe case of
[http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect).

> I haven't got a PhD but I can (at least) learn and think on that level.

You may think this, but do you have anything to show for it? Have you worked
on PhD-level projects?

A bit unrelated, but

> I don't want to go through all the obvious mistakes the first time.

From my limited experience, sometimes it's valuable to go through those
mistakes yourself.

I'm around your age and part of a community of developers in high school on
Facebook. Shoot me an email (in profile) and I'd be glad to add you to the
group.

------
krapp
You certainly do seem restless and confident, but it seems to me the
qualifications you list (PHP, Python, js, html/css) put you still near the
bottom of a very long ladder. If you feel you're exceptional, then prove it.
What have you written that's exceptional? What projects have you contributed
to?

~~~
basdevries
Thanks; that's true and in my opinion only logical; my experience isn't going
more than five years back. Why do you feel like it's a matter of languages
wheter to be able to be exeptional? I feel like I'm an exeptional learner and
I can prove that with the projects I've worked on, but I really stand out in
my passion and willingness to become one of the best in more than only
programming, but (as already mentioned) the entire stack.

~~~
krapp
I don't think the language matters that much - but there are a _lot_ of people
with the skillset you describe (myself included.) PHP in particular has a
reputation for poor quality programmers and code (which you'll easily see
every time someone posts a PHP project here and gets asked to justify even
using the language.)

I'm just suggesting that, if you're looking to impress a future employer, a
portfolio might serve you better than eagerness, unless you're willing to
start at the bottom.

~~~
basdevries
Thanks. I'm only seventeen years old, so yeah I was thinking about starting at
the bottom. The question I'm asking tho is: what should I look for in my
future employer? He/she will be much like a mentor to me and I think the right
choice will make a ton of difference down the road.

~~~
yen223
"I haven't got a PhD but I can (at least) learn and think on that level."

"I'm only seventeen years old"

Man, I really miss the good old days when I knew everything as well :)

------
zerohp
You have a terminal case of Dunning-Kruger.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect)

~~~
basdevries
Lol. Thanks for the reference, but I think that you haven't understood my
question by only the slightest bit. I expressed my ability to learn quickly
and found myself (this is actually validated by real word examples) to be able
to work on software projects with the skills I dug up in the past 5 years. I
am looking for a place (not a university) where I can learn software
devlopment in a quick matter and with a more hand-on experience. I apprieciate
that you try to tell me that you think I'm overrating myself, but I'd like it
if you had some ground to do so.

------
fredophile
You seem confused about a couple of things. First, you don't understand what a
PhD represents. It isn't a measurement of how intelligent you are. It shows a
meaningful understanding and contribution in some specialized part of your
field.

Second, I agree with other replies that brought up the Dunning-Kruger effect.
You feel that you were on par or better than a teacher of yours that has a
PhD. Does your teacher agree?

Third, if you really want to do well in business you should improve your
communication skills. Judging by your cultural references I'm assuming that
English is your first language. Your post and replies have several typos,
grammatical errors, and areas where your meaning is unclear. Why do you point
out you don't have a PhD when the reality is you probably haven't graduated
high school yet? What does "by choice" mean in reference to JavaScript? Did
someone hold a gun to your head and make you learn PHP?

I've worked with good coders that didn't have a degree but having that piece
of paper opens some doors. If you're as smart as you claim to be you should be
able to get into a pretty good school. Once you're there you'll be surrounded
by other smart people. Spending time with smart people has lots of benefits.
If you want to learn to run a business you can start one while you're in
school. It'll probably fail. Figure out what went wrong and try again. In four
years you'll have learned a lot about running a business, made good contacts
with smart people, and have a nice piece of paper. If you get lucky and the
business works out you can always just drop out.

------
cunninghamd
Hi Mike Ross,

I was (am) you. I skipped college/university 15 years ago because I felt it
couldn't teach me anything.

On the one hand, I now sit beside someone with a Masters in Computer Science
in a lateral position to him, so I've done OK.

On the other hand, if there's one thing I've observed about mentorships, etc.,
it's that they don't exist out in the real world. Companies are there to _do
their business_, whatever that might be. They don't have time to hand-hold
you. IF you want to make great connections, find great peers and mentors, go
to college or university and talk to everybody. Do the tedious grunt work...
and get the credentials while you're at it.

Entering the workforce with your (supposed) capability AND a degree will make
you unstoppable. Also, chances are you may bail on the degree, but you should
only do that if you and a couple peers are making something super cool.

Good luck!

------
macguyver
Sounds like you have a healthy ambition, which is uncommon, especially for a
teenager.

You have two options: find the job, or create the job yourself.

In order to find this job, you need to first find someone who is open-minded
enough to let you learn by doing on the job. They would likely expect to see
projects that you have done to decide if you can do what you say you can. It
can be relatively hard to find someone at an established company to give you
such an opportunity without a university education. Most people follow an
established route - they are not trailblazers. Therefore your challenge would
be to convince someone to see things the way you do.

If you have a vision of how things ought to be, you need to avoid the first
option. This will help you learn/grow fast. Otherwise you would be wasting
lots of precious time and be held back from the expectations of others.

The second option is to create your own job. You can either start your
company, or join an early stage company. Either case would still require you
do be able to demonstration that you are capable of taking action. Your
chances of getting this opportunity is much higher in the startup world.

There are pros and cons to both options. You just have to decide what you
value most: learning or comfort.

Embrace making mistakes. Learn as much from others as possible, but know that
the fastest way to learn is to do, and to do, you will make mistakes. Mistakes
are the requisite to experience. It is a healthy and unavoidable part of life.
The journey is yours alone and no one can do it for you.

------
lsiebert
Hey, since you can write all that, where is your portfolio? Show your github.

Don't have a portfolio? Build one.

Mike Ross could read along with a text book that he had memorized. If you
embody any aspect of him, it's the arrogance he holds to throughout the
series, the idea that his gift means he shouldn't be beholden to the
expectations of others.

Because that is how you come across. Arrogant, without any reason to be.

The good programmers let their work speak for them a lot more... they know you
don't tell somebody you are good, you show them.

Also you should know that your numerous typos do detract from your claimed
intelligence. Programming is one place where typos REALLY matter.

------
zaidf
I love your description of the opportunity you are looking for :)

