
It Doesn’t Count Unless I Know You’re Hitting on Me. - toddtimes
http://thetechnobody.com/it-doesnt-count-unless-i-know-youre-hitting-on-me/
======
RyanMcGreal
I'm surprised at the arrogance and even offensiveness of several of the
comments posted here. (I'm also reminded of the currently trending article
about sexual harassment and assault at OSS conventions.)

The author's issue _not_ with men hitting on her, as she clearly explains. Her
issue is with men obtaining her contact information ostensibly to do business
and then using that contact information to hit on her.

Really, is that distinction so hard to understand? Stop excusing bad behaviour
under the guise of "biology" or other lame rationalizations. They are as
demeaning to men as they are insulting to women.

~~~
tome
I think there are two different realities that fit the evidence we've been
presented with equally well. One is unacceptable -- and she's well within her
rights to complain; the other is acceptable -- and she's making too much of
the issue.

It's not beyond the realms of possibility that the following is the case:

    
    
      The men "hitting on" her are perfectly polite and 
      interested in her professionally, but also want to see if 
      there's a chance of a date.  If she were to reply, "sorry 
      no", they would leave it at that.
    

If that reality is the case, her comments are completely unwarranted. She
hasn't presented any evidence that excludes that reality, therefore she comes
across as whining.

~~~
Robin_Message
No, I think that sounds unpleasant. Just imagine some guy you met once phoning
you about business and then asking you for a date. Still think mixing business
and pleasure is okay?

It's also obviously totally unprofessional of the person. I mean, what are
they going to say to their boss?

    
    
        I met the smart freelancer we're looking for,
        but then I asked her for a date and now she isn't
        returning my calls. Sorry boss.
    

It's unprofessional and unpleasant.

~~~
tome
I don't know about the business aspect, because I'm not a businessman, but if
I met someone through the "business" of one of the volunteer organisations I
work for, then I think it's perfectly OK for them to contact me, or me to
contact them, and ask for a date.

If I wasn't interested I'd say "no thanks" and expect them to get on with life
and not harass me. Granted, this may not accurately describe the situation in
the article, but in that case the author has not made her point well.

------
wnoise
How are so many comments misreading things?

She's not complaining about being hit on. She's complaining about a _bait-and-
switch_ \-- pretextually getting her number or other contact information in a
business context, and using it later for personal contact.

~~~
FooBarWidget
She explicitly said that she will reject anyone who hits on her. How's that
not complaining about being hit on?

~~~
wnoise
Rejecting is not a direct complaint. She seems to understand that this indeed
is just part of life. Yes, she doesn't want to be hit on. But that's a
straightforward interaction she can deal with -- by rejecting it, as she says,
and moving on.

The bulk of the post, the actual problem she's complaining about, is being hit
on by "stealth", where she can't bluntly reject without compromising other
interests, whatever the context is supposed to be on the surface.

EDIT: Whoever downvoted you is an asshole. Explaining the reasoning for your
interpretation is a necessary part of this conversation.

------
grammaton
So....girl writes a blog that is half blog, half glamour photo shoot, and is
obviously trading on her appearance. Fine, it's a free country, work an
advantage if you've got it. She openly admits in the "about" section of her
blog that she has all of one year of experience. Then girl is shocked, just
_shocked_ , when business professionals don't take her seriously and are only
interested in one thing. A superficial girl (with little experience, to boot)
running into a bunch of superficial men.

Hmmm....

~~~
hard1p
How is she 'obviously' trading on her appearance exactly? If she was minging
and had exactly the same online presence you wouldn't be saying that. Tard

~~~
grammaton
Huh? This comment makes almost no sense, but if I'm understanding you
correctly, you're saying that I wouldn't think the same thing if she showed up
at a tech conference in crimson lipstick and a black dress and made pouty
faces all over the place?

Um...yes, actually. Yes I would think that.

------
iuguy
The article does come across as though she's acting very much the 'self-
involved woman pirate whore' she's trying to avoid, but it's her site, her
prerogative.

Casting that aside for a moment, biology happens. I'm a guy, married and have
been hit on in the past (my best defence was to stop working out and put a few
pounds on, hasn't been a problem since then although it may have introduced
new problems which I'm now working on).

It's natural for men and women to flirt, to hit on each other in an attempt to
achieve evolution's goal. It's what we're all wired for. However, having said
that as long as boundaries are made clear it shouldn't be a problem.

I'd also like to say that I have both been 'that guy' and been hit on by 'that
woman'. In both cases there are worse things in the world to worry about. In
the case of 'that woman' I made a pretty good friend and business associate,
in the case of being 'that guy', you chalk it up and move on, or in my case
make friends with someone who you wouldn't have perhaps spoken to if you
weren't initially attracted to.

I'd also second the context. A woman being hit on in SF is nothing like being
hit in Cairo, Delhi or even Paris.

------
etherael
So after examining her site a little more closely, I'm not sure what she
actually does? I see vague hand waving towards a facility for schmoozing in
some fashion and copious hand waving toward her having very little idea what's
going on in her field with a healthy dash of self deprecation thrown in.

If all you do is schmooze then is it really so strange that someone might
mistake your intent as unrelated to acting as a supplier, partner or client to
their business? How cut and dried really is it? It's not like she's a
developer looking for a new project or something that would clearly qualify as
"serious business".

It does have the not-so-faint whiff of life is so hard everybody wants me.

~~~
tptacek
I'm not sure what this comment has to do with the article at all. Try to
evaluate the idea, and not the author.

Whether or not you think women are treated unfairly in the industry (I used to
bristle at the idea, then watched my wife interview for jobs and _radically_
changed my take), and whether or not this particular woman endured any real
unfairness:

It is still worth considering how totally unprofessional and inappropriate it
may be to ask a woman for her business card in order to abuse it for your
personal benefit. It's not something I had thought of before. It's worth
discussing.

If gender politics makes your brain turn off (and, it used to do that to me
too), just pivot the story in your head so that instead of asking for a date,
the guy takes her card at a tech convention and later calls and tries to sell
her a dental insurance policy. It's spam. Spam is bad. There's an implied
agreement when I give you my card that you're going to use it for its intended
purpose: to contact me about something relevant to my business.

~~~
etherael
I don't think your analogy is a good match, someone selling you dental
insurance out of the blue is also considered a nuisance, someone asking if you
would like to go out on a date out of the blue is par for the course on normal
human relations, and the author admits as much and points out that it is easy
to simply refuse in this instance.

I have been propositioned for this kind of thing in a business context and
have refused and not had negative blowback from doing so. That was actually
the first mental shift I tried to see if it made any more sense to me that
way, but it still seemed overblown. I can't think of an invitation that it is
socially acceptable to make to a new acquintance that it is not socially
acceptable to make to a new potential business contact, admittedly I guess
that might be a consequence of the extremely limited array of things I
consider to be socially acceptable invitations to new acquaintances.

Just saying no thanks is really not so hard, and if it continues after that
point it becomes a hell of a lot less ambiguous or defensible.

~~~
tptacek
Taking someone's business contact information with no intent of building a
business relationship and then using it for your own personal benefit is
unprofessional and rude. I'm not sure any number of words is going to get you
around that fact.

~~~
etherael
mentioned multiple times a) it is not clear that there was no intent beside
personal benefit and b) it is not clear where the line between personal and
business is if your business is schmoozing.

This is not to say this is absolutely positively an instance of either of the
above, merely that it is too ambiguous and unclear to not come across poorly.

~~~
tptacek
It's always going to be possible to come up with some circumstance the author
didn't foresee or insulate themselves from that might mitigate the _specific
facts_ they're using to promote their idea. But who cares? That's a nerd
message board game.

The question is: is taking someone's business card under the auspices of a
business inquiry and then using it solely for your own personal reasons
unprofessional or not? The answer (I'll go out on a limb here...) is: _yes_.
It's unprofessional. Interesting point, blog author! Thanks!

~~~
etherael
Your single paragraph summary was immeasurably clearer than her entire rant.
Yes, under those exact circumstances it is both unprofessional and stalkerish.

------
fooandbarify
Hmmm. I'm frustrated, because I think the author is making a very important
point in a very, very poor way.

Gender issues are important. They are important everywhere and they are
especially important in industries like ours where the gender ratios are so
unbalanced.

That being said, I find it extremely difficult to take this author seriously.
I don't think I can critique her writing in a way that doesn't either come off
as mean or completely expose me as the curmudgeonly bastard that I am, so I
will just say that I found her style distracting. It's her blog and she should
by all means write however she wishes - and to be fair she may not have
expected the attention she is getting - but it's disappointing to me to see
this issue represented in this way.

Hopefully, though, people will be able to see past that and realize that it's
pathetic and rude to collect someone's personal contact information under the
guise of business networking with the intent of calling them later for a date.

~~~
tome
_Hopefully, though, people will be able to see past that and realize that it's
pathetic and rude to collect someone's personal contact information under the
guise of business networking with the intent of calling them later for a
date._

Sure, it's underhand, but she hasn't said anything to suggest that they're not
interested in her both personally _and_ professionally.

This is agreement with you: she's very unclear.

------
stuhacking
Why doesn't she get a second phone/line for business only. If someone abuses
that then at least they don't have her personal number and she can deal with
the inappropriate use of her business number accordingly.

She could also make it clear on the card that it is a business number.

~~~
acgourley
It doesn't really matter, I've had an ex get asked to dates over _email_ by
potential business leads. Especially awkward is the "half and half" situation
where they asked you to dinner to discuss business. For her it was especially
hard to turn down because it wasn't just a networking client is was often a
potential client for her firm.

~~~
stuhacking
The point is you take steps to separate your business and personal details so
that some percentage of your encounters will get the picture.

For those that don't, you should be able to deal with them quite candidly. If
they persist and start harassing you then block their number or report them.

If you can't do this, then maybe the problem lies on your end. Stop putting
yourself in the position where you are helplessly being tormented.

------
jscore
Two things:

1\. You're a woman, and men will hit on you, and that's not a bad thing; it's
biology.

2\. If you think SF men are aggressive, then obviously you haven't been out
much. I don't think I've been anywhere in the world that's LESS aggressive
than SF when it comes to dating/mating. Go to Brazil and see what
aggressiveness is.

~~~
buro9
#2 doesn't make it right.

Does a woman not have the right not to face that? If you've got a girl, don't
you feel personally that she shouldn't have to face that?

At what point are aggressive come-ons just harassment?

~~~
enjo
From my perspective? No, she really doesn't have the right not to face that.
She's a woman. It's biology. Part of being a human being is interacting with
other human beings, many of home would like to sleep with you.

She should have to deal with harrasment? Nope, but that's a different thing
entirely. Somebody scoping out your card and then asking you out on a date
isn't harassing you. They're asking you on a date. It's what happens after you
say 'no' that things become different.

------
lhorie
You know, some people say a woman mind is a mystery, but this thread is making
me think that some guys simply don't make any effort to actually understand
what women mean when they say something clear and to the point...

~~~
tome
In my opinion she's anything _but_ clear. She doesn't explain, for example,
when she gets asked out on a date (is that exactly what she's suggesting these
men are doing -- it's again not clear) why can she just not say "no thanks"
and leave it at that?

~~~
parfe
>In my opinion she's anything but clear.

Seriously? You miss her saying that trading business cards is not an
invitation for personal contact?

I found it blatantly obvious that she finds direct flirting acceptable while
the subterfuge of faking a professional interaction to acquire contact
information to be creepy and spineless.

I think a lot of people here are taking this woman's complaint personally
which is actually quite funny.

~~~
tome
Fine, so those who read her blog won't be asking her out on a date, but it
shouldn't hold them back from asking out other women who they think might be
more receptive to the same approach. This is her personal opinion and personal
taste, not a guidebook to women.

------
drallison
She's right on point, IMHO. It's not the fact that she's being hit on that
bothers her. It's the fact that the people who ask for her card give no clues
as to their intentions. She wants people who ask for her card for personal
reasons to say that is what they are doing. Makes sense to me.

------
Benjo
It's not clear to me if she's a) complaining for the sake of it, b) looking
for advice on how to handle this, or c) offering advice to guys on what not to
do. Point c is probably really good advice to a lot of people, but she's
muddled it so much with points a and b that it's not going to help anyone.

------
niels_olson
I suspect the bait-and-switch wouldn't be such an issue in a more sexually
equal environment. Physicians are about 50:50 and while I've heard plenty of
female doctors complain about being called "nurse", I've never heard a
complaint about "bait-and-switch". I have heard a few complaints about
"where'd all the men go?"

The environment in tech sounds about like the military: women have to be
prepared to physically fight their own team. Which is deeply unfortunate.

------
thret
I see her point, but I don't blame any of those guys. The hottest chick at the
party is going to get hit on in every way possible and there is really nothing
you can do about it. "My wallet's too small for my fifties and my diamond
shoes are too tight."

~~~
acgourley
She did do something about it, didn't she? It's not going to solve the problem
overnight but it's more likely to create change than just bucking up.

------
wyclif
Why is this story still on the front page?

~~~
getsat
How long were Noirin Shirley's false allegations on the front page? Once the
white knights finish their posturing, it will disappear (until next time).

~~~
rue
If you feel the need to pull that in here, at least provide sourcing for your
allegations of falseness.

~~~
getsat
How about the fact that her police report resulted in nothing happening? All
we got out of the entire incident was a character assassination under false
pretenses and a lot of whining.

It probably also violates HN etiquette to link your comments to your female
friends and ask them to upvote it. Please don't do it anymore.

~~~
LooDraMawn
I wouldn't expect ANY outcome from a police report prior to a conviction in
court. After all, the investigation now spans at least two states and two
continents. I expect that the "accused", if informed that he has no case to
answer, will immediately let all us know that fact! I WAS sursied when Shirley
posted her accusation, but then got to thinking that she has no other
mechanism to warn others - the police case is "sub-judice". Have a nice day
and remember that women can knee you in the balls if you are smaller than
them.

------
Estragon
Wow that youtube video she included was the most annoying thing I've seen all
week. I lasted 30s. And yes, she does sound self-involved, as she speculates
at the end of the post. Of course she gets to have her rant (why ask?) but I
have to wonder why... it doesn't come off very well.

~~~
GiraffeNecktie
Well she's got eight, count em, EIGHT pictures of herself and her shiny red
lips at the top of the page. So yeah, self-involved? Could be.

~~~
anigbrowl
True. That's a flirty rather than a professional image by US standards. That
said, it can take some time to adjust when you move here from the UK (or is it
Australia/NZ? Didn't check). I found California quite strange for the first
year. Also, Americans like foreign accents a _lot_. I get flirty remarks about
mine all the time despite being here for years and a wedding ring.

------
trustfundbaby
<snark>Yeah ... it reallly sucks to be goodlooking.</snark>

I understand what she's saying, and I empathize, I really do, but its is a
hazard of being attractive ...

SUCK IT UP.

Its bad form to rant about that kind of stuff ... its almost like some dude
who owns a Ferrari/Aston Martin/whatever, complaining about how people are
always crowding around his car wherever he parks it. (Yeah how dreary it must
be to own a Ferrari!) ... It just comes across wrong.

If she really wants to solve her problem and stop ranting ... let her put on
30 pounds. I _promise_ the shennanigans will stop ... abruptly.

------
Grinnmarr
Methinks the lady doth protest too much. If she has as big a problem with this
as she claims then she has greater challenges facing her then learning how to
set (or correct) a boundary. Seriously. I was recently fired by a client after
rejecting her sexual advances. Maybe I'll make a blog post bragging about my
animal magnetism to assuage my disappointment over my professional failure.

------
rue
Also, it doesn't count unless _I_ know you're hitting on me.

------
wyclif
A male hit on her, _in San Francisco_. Context is everything, no? This is
possibly amazing, but amazing enough to generate a blog post?

I've seen a lot of comments in social media from SF women stating that they
can't get a guy to even look at them.

~~~
CodeMage
Context really is everything, which is why I found your comment misleading.
The topic of her post is not that a male hit on her _anywhere_ in San
Francisco. What she's talking about is the fact that some male(s) interpreted
exchanging of business cards as "giving out a phone number" which can then be
used for personal reasons, such as hitting on her. Furthermore, she finds
herself facing an interesting dilemma: she feels she can't be "harsh", because
they're a business contact.

It _is_ an interesting topic, at least for me: I'm male, so I haven't had to
go through a situation like that and I don't have a clue how I would respond
to something like that if I were in her shoes. Had I heeded your summary
without reading the blog, I would've missed a mildly interesting topic.

~~~
wyclif
Yes, but the "hitting on her" part is why she is aggrieved. I agree totally
that using business card exhange for that is creepy.

------
aneth
I'm a man and I've certainly questioned the intentions of quite a few women
who "network.". I've also had questionable intentions with women I've
networked with. So what? Flirting happens when sexes meet. Sometimes even
more. If you want to close the door on that, say you have a boyfriend or your
not interested in dating, or just don't flirt back. Otherwise you're the wuss
for being unable to handle the facts of life. Disrespectful or overly
persistent is another matter, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

A lot of people go to networking events to meet partners as well as network.

And American men are aggressive? Try Italian, Spanish, French, ...

~~~
msy
You're missing the point, it's not the flirting, it's the getting of contact
information under the false pretences of doing business that's she's
understandably annoyed about.

------
rorrr
What a complainer she is. Problem totally blown out of proportion. She is not
even that hot (6 out of 10, maybe).

A girl with barely any experience who goes to networking events. WTF does she
expect?

~~~
hard1p
What a dumbass you are - I bet you're one of those guys.

P.S. 10/10 _

------
marknutter
I think she had better get used to it. Hot women, and she is hot, are hard to
approach, so guys will take any segway they can get, even if it's somewhat
disingenuous. I have a feeling if she really wanted this to stop she would put
on a fake wedding ring, but I somehow think that might put a damper on her
professional success... sadly enough.

