
The Chalk Market: Where Mathematicians Go to Get the Good Stuf - mxcrossb
https://alumni.berkeley.edu/california-magazine/just-in/2019-06-14/chalk-market-where-mathematicians-go-get-good-stuff
======
toomanybeersies
The Japanese seem to make really good writing instruments in general.

My daily driver for writing is a Mitsubishi uni-ball eye. Only costs a few
bucks and it's miles better than a 10 cent Bic.

I'm not some kind of pen snob who knows all about different pens, but I know a
good pen when I use one. I've found that it makes my (usually unintelligible)
handwriting a lot better too.

I guess it's maybe a cultural thing, I've heard that the Japanese still place
a lot of emphasis on handwriting letters and notes. Meanwhile there's people
in my office who haven't touched a pen in weeks.

~~~
komali2
Yea, what's up with that, actually? Why are they so good at making pretty much
_anything_ over there?

Writing utensils:

毛笔 - "maobi," the brush one uses to write calligraphy. Brought to Japan by the
Chinese thousand years ago or so, now they make the best

Paper. Midori and Mio. Nigh untouchable. The only people that come close are
Leuchtturm, IMO. And it's _cheap_!

Fountain Pens. Actually the Taiwanese do well here as well, but nobody can
take on the behemoth, Pilot.

Cars: Toyota. Honda. Well regarded as the most repairable, built-to-last cars
in the world. Mitsubishi, Nissan, Mazda coming out with excellent sports cars.

Motorcycles: Suzuki tops the line when it comes to dependability,
repairability, durability, and quality. Spend a week pulling apart and putting
together an SV650, then do a Ducati Monster, you'll see what I mean (if you
can even find the tools to start unbolting shit off the Ducati)

Construction equipment: Komatsu, Hitachi. Some prefer Caterpillar but not for
me.

Extraterrestrial Equipment: Walk through the full-size model of the ISS in the
Johnson Space Center, Houston. You've got the Russian model, carved out of
solid blocks of aluminum. The American one, which feels like being inside of a
tricked out Ford f150, cheap panels and all. Then you step in the Japanese
one, an over-engineered masterpiece in interior design. Everything has a
little cubby, space, place. So organized, so _perfect_.

How do they do it???

Edit: I'm genuinely trying to think of something I trust some other country to
make better than the Japanese and having a hard time. Maybe bicycles - can't
beat the Taiwanese with Giant... but then again everyone uses Shimano
components.

Uh, phones? Samsung I guess?

Laptops, I generally go for Lenovo, so there. That's all I can think of.

~~~
joewee
My guess. Japanese have long valued mastery and specialization. Historically a
cast society, people were expected to dedicate their entire lives to the line
of work their biological or adopted family was known for.

The country also went to great pains to isolate themselves so this system
continued for much longer than other parts of the world where sources of
wealth were more diversified. In Japan wealth came from being known as the
best at your craft, which fostered a culture of continuous improvement.

In much of Asia perfection of art was seen as a sign of sophistication for the
wealthy. But the cultural revolution in China really dampened that for much of
China’s sphere of influence.

After WW-II Japan was forced to modernize. Western manufacturing and
improvement processes came in. The manufacturing was new but the culture of
continuous improvement and mastery was already well established in Japanese
culture but didn’t exist in the West where modernization was really a battle
between the use of slave labor / child labor vs machines and the concept of
continuous improvement was a new thing.

But I wonder, can we say the same about German engineering vs Russian
engineering?

~~~
nextos
I love Japanese high quality items, but I think we worship them a bit due to
the fact that they are foreign imports from a different culture. For some
categories mentioned by the OP, some non-Japanese items are superior.

In the same way, the Japanese worship even more some Western goods and have
gone out of their way to copy and sometimes improve them. For example, there
is a whole subculture in Japan that adores old American tees and denim. They
create exceptionally high quality reproductions using original equipment [1].

[1]
[https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052970204542404577157...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052970204542404577157290201608630)

~~~
joewee
There are plenty of areas where Japanese have lost to competitors. Their sweet
is making things that are hard and expensive do well. The most important
components of our iPhones can only be made in Japan because of their attention
to detail. They still make pretty good swords and knives!

------
johnohara
A well-made slate board completes the marriage.

It is pure joy to come to class with a fully prepared math lesson on yellow
legal paper, take attendance, clear the board, and start, filling three, maybe
four boards with precise alphanumeric characters, graphs or diagrams, and a
confident cadence that allows for good questions, good notes, and a positive
learning environment.

When good chalk hits good slate there is an immediate sense of responsibility
with respect to what has been enabled.

~~~
UweSchmidt
I haven't had a good learning experience when the professor cleared the
boards, and filled them with precise characters, graphs or diagrams. Good
chalk can't fix ex-cathedra teaching.

~~~
sooheon
Seems a bit miserly to leave out "good questions, good notes, and a positive
learning environment" as ingredients.

------
aapeli
I was first introduced to Hagoromo about four years ago when the word had just
come out that they were closing shop. A colleague of mine was in love with it,
and ordered several boxes. I managed to get two sticks of the stuff and used
it sparingly for quite a long time. It really is way better than the majority
of chalks. It's coated in a thin film so your hands don't get dirty and it's
extremely fine making it smooth to write with.

The article is a little comical about the effects of using the chalk, but due
to its scarcity, I've certainly heard that some use it only for the most
important theorems.

------
stevewillows
I love how every community has their 'thing' that is sought after. Looking up
chalk leads down a very narrow rabbit hole.

Some say that Hagoromo sold two of their compression molds to Sejong Corp (who
also took the name), while the other went to Uma-Jirushi.

If I had a use for chalk, it'd be fun to try to create the perfect stick.
Compression molds aren't hard to find or even make, then its down the mix. I
assume that Hagoromo was using more than water and a super fine plaster (e.g.
Plaster of Paris) with white Tempura paint..

Has anybody tried making chalk before? I've made chalkboard paint for signage
(just unsanded grout and paint), but I never thought to take it a step
further.

~~~
stevewillows
there is a lot more to making chalk than I realized.
[https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/c3/19/ae/06e559e...](https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/c3/19/ae/06e559ead753d6/WO2011141936A1.pdf)

------
equalunique
For anyone here who likes "mechanical keyboards" it may interest you to know
that for the next 7 days some Hagoromo-chalk color-matched kits are available
in a "group buy" on Massdrop[0]. The kit is for the alpha (i.e., the "letter
and number") keys on your US-ANSI layout keyboard. There is also another kit,
which in addition to having the standard letters and numbers, adds APL
sublegends. There are a couple smaller kits that add the color to the F-row,
and more interestingly, a "Vim Kit" which has left, down, up, and right arrows
as sublegends on the H, J, K, and L keys - all in a color of ABS plastic
matches to Hagoromo chalk.

[0] [https://drop.com/buy/drop-oblotzky-gmk-oblivion-v2-custom-
ke...](https://drop.com/buy/drop-oblotzky-gmk-oblivion-v2-custom-keycap-
set?utm_source=linkshare&referer=DNQGJA)

~~~
stevewillows
You also can tack on `?mode=guest_open` to view any massdrop URL without a
login.

[https://drop.com/buy/drop-oblotzky-gmk-oblivion-v2-custom-
ke...](https://drop.com/buy/drop-oblotzky-gmk-oblivion-v2-custom-keycap-
set?mode=guest_open) \-- keycap set is $125

~~~
vmurthy
Link doesn't seem to be working.. Do you think they've patched this?

------
9nGQluzmnq3M
This is the new manufacturer of Hagoromo:

[http://www.sejongmall.co.kr](http://www.sejongmall.co.kr) (Korean only)

[http://www.kompass.kr/img/catalogue/20180719094839_1.pdf](http://www.kompass.kr/img/catalogue/20180719094839_1.pdf)
(English brochure)

~~~
beefman
Background:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9770017](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9770017)

------
ZoomZoomZoom
I have a slight physiological twitch-like reaction to the feeling of chalk on
my fingertips. It bothered me so much during my learning years that I did my
best to avoid coming to a board at all. If anyone knows a correct term for
this phenomenon, I'd be glad to read more about it.

~~~
garmaine
I don't know if there's a name, but you're not alone. I f$%*ing hate chalk, so
much that I started avoiding math classes at my school. Both the sound it
makes and the feeling of it as you mention. Just thinking about it makes my
skin crawl.

We're not crazy though. Just look at what chalk looks like under the
microscope to see what your fingers are picking up on:

[https://www.google.com/search?q=chalk+microscope](https://www.google.com/search?q=chalk+microscope)

Edit: maybe it's a tactile version of trypophobia? (trigger warning if you
image search the term...)

~~~
Throwaway_67576
That's natural chalk, not blackboard or sidewalk chalk.

> maybe it's a tactile version of trypophobia?

You can't sense the individual chalk particles.

------
pmiller2
What I’d like to know is why, of all academics, only mathematicians care about
chalk. Computer scientists? Nope. Statisticians? Nope. Physicists? Engineers?
Nope, and nope. Only mathematicians.

And, don’t forget about boards. Real slate, please. Black. Large. Yes.

~~~
mlevental
because math classes are the only classes still taught on the board. everyone
else uses powerpoint

~~~
pmiller2
Ok, but why? You’re effectively saying they like it because they like it.

CS, stats, physics, engineering, etc. classes would all benefit from slowing
down and explaining things the way mathematicians are forced to do using
chalk.

~~~
garmaine
Even chalk is inefficient though. One of the best math classes I had was
taught on a projector with a wind-up transparent overlay. He'd use colored
markers on the transparent sheet, and then wind up a little when he reached
the bottom. If there was questions he could "rewind" to the point in question
as nothing was ever erased. He then took the transparency roll to his office
where it was available, in scroll-like form, during office hours.

------
peterburkimsher
The chalk sounds amazing, for those with a blackboard.

If anybody uses a whiteboard, here's a scientifically-methodical article
reviewing the best whiteboard pens of each colour.

[https://medium.com/graphicfacilitation/all-you-need-to-
know-...](https://medium.com/graphicfacilitation/all-you-need-to-know-about-
whiteboard-markers-2a25d1249911)

------
Reedx
Recently saw a good video about this:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhNUjg9X4g8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhNUjg9X4g8)

Pretty amusing they were stockpiling it and some were chalk dealers on the
side.

------
dang
Related:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19822164](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19822164)

~~~
dredmorbius
A few other earlier instances:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9723202](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9723202)
(2015) (re-posted a couple of months ago:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19718287](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19718287))

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9770017](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9770017)
(2015) on why the company closed

And unrelated but v. cool: chalk micrography:
[https://twitter.com/ferrisjabr/status/1022534132415356928](https://twitter.com/ferrisjabr/status/1022534132415356928)
, at HN;
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17635247](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17635247)

From that last, Thomas Huxley, "On a Piece of Chalk":
[https://mathcs.clarku.edu/huxley/CE8/Chalk.html](https://mathcs.clarku.edu/huxley/CE8/Chalk.html)

------
kn0where
Maybe I’m just young, but I hate chalkboards. In college they were always way
less legible than a whiteboard with a fresh marker—too little contrast.

~~~
romwell
The thing with chalk is: if you see a piece of chalk, you can use it. After
you're done, put it down and forget it.

If you see a marker... 50% chance it's dead, 25% chance it's barely alive, 15%
chance it's legible from the back row, 10% chance it's fresh and usable the
way you describe it. It's impossible to tell before you try.

After you're done with it, you need to remember to close the cap, or find a
trash can to chuck it into (and make a call if the marker kind-of-still-works-
but-not-really). Seems like a small thing, but adds mental overhead. And it's
a big enough overhead that a lot of people _don 't do it_. Otherwise, how
would we end up with the distribution above in the first place?

Now teaching/explaining is a performance art. Doing the "wait, let me try
another marker, is it better now?" dance ruins the show.

That's why mathematicians prefer chalk. The subject matter is already
difficult enough, there's not enough bandwidth for all of that nonsense. Have
chalk, will write. End of story.

~~~
komali2
Also the markers are shit from a sustainability standpoint - non refillable,
take up space in a landfill, as far as I know unrecyclable, manufacturing
chain involving at the very least plastic, ink, and whatever makes the tip,
and gets tossed seemingly on a daily basis.

~~~
Nullabillity
There are refillable markers.

------
AnthonyWnC
I think chalk sucks as they are dirty, messy, dusty and probably not good for
your health. I hope for the day they all disappeared and are replaced by
digital whiteboard where you don't need to erase anything and can be
collaborative with remote location in real time.

~~~
dreen
I was wondering about this as well. Isn't chalk dust super bad for your lungs?

------
_hardwaregeek
It's amazing stuff. So smooth, so clean. I've resorted to keeping some in my
backpack at all times. And anecdotally, I see more and more professors using
it. Maybe good marketing at work?

Sidenote, I love the name MSRI, cause you can pronounce it "misery"

------
sapphire_tomb
Interesting. I thought the stuff people generally wrote on blackboards with
was actually gypsum, and not chalk at all. Although everyone calls it chalk.

------
beezle
So what is the best blackboard then? Seems pointless to use really good chalk
on an inferior board.

------
skc
Which one tastes best?

Only half joking. I used to nibble on chalk as a kid, was oddly satisfying.

