
US won't punish United Airlines over passenger-dragging incident - rainhacker
http://abc7chicago.com/travel/us-wont-punish-united-over-passenger-dragging-incident/2387132/
======
alehul
> "Airlines are allowed to oversell flights. When they do, they typically
> offer travel vouchers to encourage some people to give up their seats. They
> can also bump passengers - force them off the flight - but there are rules
> and necessary compensation." > "Dao, who lost teeth and suffered a broken
> nose and a concussion."

I don't understand why we still allow overbooking when we regulate so much
else in the flight industry.

Also, even with allowed overbooking, why is it not the responsibility of the
airline — who initially offered travel vouchers per policy — to continually
offer more until the offer is accepted? Why are they allowed to determine 'x'
amount as justifiable, then forcefully remove people when the passengers
disagree? Paying generously should be a penalty of overbooking, at the least.

~~~
jdmichal
> Also, even with allowed overbooking, why is it not the responsibility of the
> airline — who initially offered travel vouchers per policy — to continually
> offer more until the offer is accepted? Why are they allowed to determine
> 'x' amount as justifiable, then forcefully remove people when the passengers
> disagree? Paying generously should be a penalty of overbooking, at the
> least.

It's actually the federal government that has determined what is appropriate
for forced bumping from a flight.

* No compensation for less than one hour delay.

* 200% reward _in cash_ for one to two hours delay.

* 400% reward _in cash_ for two or more hours delay.

* This is all _in addition_ to retaining your original ticket, which the airlines must continue to honor with a new flight. Or you can request a refund, though I'm unsure how that interacts with the rewards.

The vouchers are the airlines attempts to get volunteers for cheaper than the
federally-mandated compensation.

[https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/fly-
rights#Overbo...](https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/fly-
rights#Overbooking)

~~~
conductr
I thought there was something about how none of this applies once you've taken
your seat. If you're seated, you can refuse to give up your seat (unless
you're being removed because of your own behavior).

~~~
rhino369
Some argued the contract of carriage only allows the airline to deny boarding,
not to remove you after boarding. But that is a pretty narrow interpretation
of the language. Plus, the airline can throw you off the plane for any reason
at all, even if doing so is a breach of contract.

There is no explicit law that says you can't be asked to leave a plane you
already boarded.

~~~
phonon
Incorrect. United has a contract of carriage that explicitly enumerates the
circumstances in which they can remove you from the aircraft.[1] Overbooking
is not one of those reasons, and there is no "catch-all".

[1] [https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-
carriag...](https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-
carriage.aspx#sec21)

~~~
rhino369
They can still remove you in breach of the contract. You could collect some
damages, but they are allowed to do it.

~~~
phonon
A. You make it sound as if a common carrier violating its own contract of
carriage is no big deal. Depending on how widespread and severe the violations
are, there could be considerable repercussions from the DOT/FAA, in addition
to civil damages.

B. It's no simple thing to forcibly remove someone. This is not "being asked
to leave a plane you already boarded." but dragging someone out violently. If
the airline is the one breaching their contract, why would the police assist
in that breach?

You can read a bit more--

[https://www.natlawreview.com/article/united-airlines-dr-
dao-...](https://www.natlawreview.com/article/united-airlines-dr-dao-and-
contract-carriage)

[https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R43078.pdf](https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R43078.pdf)

~~~
rhino369
Typically breach of contract is no big deal. It happens all the time.
Certainly, if airlines are being deceptive it starts becoming a consumer fraud
issue and the government should step in.

The police wouldn't be assisting the breach, they'd be removing a trespasser.
Once your invitation is revoked, you have no right to stay in a location.
Having a claim for breach of contract gives you no right to try to physically
force performance.

------
waqf
It wasn't United staff who assaulted a customer, it was airport security
staff. The article doesn't say the US won't punish O'Hare Airport over the
incident.

~~~
alex-
This to me seems like the major point. If we imagine we own a restaurant and a
customer refused to leave, forcing us to call the police. Then the police show
up, over react and shoot the customer. Surely the law enforcers doing the
shooting are the responsible/guilty party?

~~~
r00fus
Given your hypothetical restaurant scenario, what would ultimately happen
(regardless of responsibility) is that your revenue would topple as guests
flee the venue and avoid it like the plague in the future.

United is not a small concern, they have lawyers and PR folks that a small
restaurant doesn't have access to.

------
Domenic_S
Thought exercise: Someone with lawful authority tells you to move. You don't
move. What now?

~~~
na85
How do I know that $random_armed_thug is lawfully authorized? Just because he
says so?

I paid for my seat on this flight.

~~~
Domenic_S
It was a stipulation in my thought exercise, but to your point, all passengers
must obey flight attendants, here is the federal law:
[http://codes.findlaw.com/us/title-49-transportation/49-usc-s...](http://codes.findlaw.com/us/title-49-transportation/49-usc-
sect-46504.html)

~~~
na85
Did the flight attendants beat him up and drag him off the plane?

~~~
Domenic_S
You keep dodging the question.

------
marcoperaza
Being denied your paid seat is a civil matter (and possibly allowed in the
contract you signed when you bought it). The proper course of action is a
request for compensation followed by a lawsuit if necessary. Or a complaint to
relevant oversight bodies. Or making a stink in the court of public opinion.

But trespassing on someone's property after receiving a request from them to
leave is a crime. Disobeying a lawful order from a police officer is another
crime. This guy got stupid lucky that the affair went viral. Otherwise he'd
just be sitting in jail.

~~~
jamessb
> But trespassing on someone's property after receiving a request from them to
> leave is a crime.

I am not a lawyer, but I don't think it is that simple. _25 CFR 11.411 -
Criminal trespass_ requires the person comitting the offense to "know that he
or she is not licensed or privileged to" enter or remain [1].

What if you believe that you _are_ "licensed or privileged" to do remain where
you are, because you are in posession of a valid ticket and the demand that
you to give up your seat is not consistent with the terms attached to the
ticket? It seems that if you believe that you have a license to remain then
you are not commiting a crime, even if you are actually mistaken in this
belief.

Illinois state law also has a "Criminal trespass to vehicles" offense, but it
applies only to entering, not remaining [2].

[1]:
[https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/25/11.411](https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/25/11.411)

[2]:
[http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/documents/072000050K21-...](http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/documents/072000050K21-2.htm)

~~~
marcoperaza
Being told by the employees, and then security and then police, that you must
leave most certainly satisfies that requirement. You don't get a free pass on
the law for being obtuse. And again, a contract for a plane ticket is a civil
matter. Unless I misunderstand, it has no real bearing on your right to stay
at the moment that you're asked to leave. It would only entitle you to recover
damages after the fact.

