
Magic mushrooms found to lift severe depression in clinical trial - torus
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/may/17/magic-mushrooms-lift-severe-depression-in-clinical-trial
======
exelius
From personal experience in my youth, I can definitely say that psychedelics
(mushrooms in particular) can help you think in different ways that make your
problems seem trivial and imminently solvable. Those changed patterns of
thought seem like a revelation at the time -- like the clouds opened and an
answer came down from the sky. So I'm not at all surprised with this.

That said, this study had only 12 participants with no control group -- so
it's hard to draw any meaningful conclusions. But as a canary study, it says
that there might be something here, so further, more rigorous studies are
warranted.

~~~
zimbu668
Roland Griffiths at John's Hopkins is trying to do proper research on
psilocybin, i.e. with control groups. Although it's kind of hard since the
effects of psilocybin are rather noticeable.

[http://www.tedmed.com/speakers/show?id=526372](http://www.tedmed.com/speakers/show?id=526372)

Just in case anyone here hasn't already seen this:
[https://xkcd.com/1462/](https://xkcd.com/1462/)

~~~
oxryly1
Can't they just lower the dosage drastically?

~~~
some1else
You mean like micro-dosing and homeopathy? And see if they're not depressed
for the next 15 seconds?

------
humbleMouse
When I am finishing a mushroom experience I usually have overwhelming feelings
of love and am excited to start the next day. My brain is racing with all the
possibilities of life and ways I can make things better for myself.

People should be coached in how to have a good mushroom experience and what to
expect. Nature + fresh fruit + good music + comfy place to sleep has always
been a winning combination for me.

~~~
fourstar
Fresh fruit? How are you hungry let alone craving fruit on shrooms?

~~~
Ftuuky
Eating oranges while tripping on shrooms was a very intense experience to me.
I agree with OP's statement, a comfy place with calm music and fresh fruit is
all you need.

~~~
eip
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hqgYYASenc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hqgYYASenc)

------
primitivesuave
For those seeking to break down the barriers of the mind, psilocybin and
mescaline are the most intelligent options. SWIM (Someone Who Isn't Me) grew
mushrooms and peyote cactus to enable revelations in the minds of consenting
adults, and every single person who ingested these naturally-occurring organic
substances thanked SWIM for a life-changing experience.

That said, there are obvious risks to glorifying psychedelic use, especially
when available psychedelics are usually in the form of LSD. While these
synthetic compounds can yield the same results as their organic counterparts,
there is no way to verify the amount of LSD in a dose. Overdosing on LSD can
trigger schizophrenia and several other mental problems in those who are prone
to it. This is why SWIM recommends organic psychedelic compounds that can be
clearly measured into an appropriate dosage for the individual's size and past
psychedelic experience.

There is also an overwhelming trend amongst unscrupulous suppliers to market
doses of DOC
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2,5-Dimethoxy-4-chloroamphetam...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2,5-Dimethoxy-4-chloroamphetam...))
as LSD. While the observed effect of the two are similar, DOC can be extremely
dangerous to those with hypertension and high blood pressure. DOC is also an
amphetamine with greater risk of physical addiction.

SWIM also wants to point out that SWIM engaged in countless adventures with
varying levels of psilocybin and mescaline dosages, and arrived at the
conclusion that psychedelic substances are not necessary for seeing the beauty
in life or the purpose that one may have in this world. SWIM's most
transformative revelations came about while completely sober at a Taoist
monastery of the Wudang mountains in China. It is SWIM's opinion that all can
know beauty as beauty only because there is ugliness (Tao Te Ching, chapter
2), and now urges people to pursue safe and well-known techniques (meditation,
yoga, tai chi, qi gong) for improving one's state of mind.

~~~
tribby
>there is no way to verify the amount of LSD in a dose

Nor psilocybin in a mushroom...

~~~
primitivesuave
The variance in potency is negligible, especially when compared to the
variance in potency of LSD doses. It is generally known amongst those taking
mushrooms that 2 - 3 grams is within most people's comfort level. The real
variance comes from how dry the mushrooms are - mushrooms that are more moist
will be less potent. This is why a responsible mushroom grower will thoroughly
dry their mushrooms before consuming them.

------
apo
From the study:

> A logical next step would be to carry out a placebo controlled randomised
> trial in which the level of therapist contact is consistent between
> conditions.

[http://www.thelancet.com/pb/assets/raw/Lancet/pdfs/S22150366...](http://www.thelancet.com/pb/assets/raw/Lancet/pdfs/S2215036616300657.pdf)

Depression studies are subject to well-known, powerful placebo effects,
rendering this study's conclusions next to useless:

[http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/are-
antidepr...](http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/are-
antidepressants-just-placebos-with-side-effects/)

~~~
cryptoz
> next to useless

No study or scientific curiosity is "next to useless". You are being
intentionally antagonistic and there's no need for that. All research has to
start somewhere, and this study is a significant start to this field. In no
way is it or its conclusions "next to useless".

~~~
patrickmclaren
Agreed. One might say to take the conclusion with a grain of salt, but "next
to useless" is being overly dismissive.

~~~
cpncrunch
No, it is simply a statement of fact. Given that _all_ treatments for
depression produce a powerful placebo effect, any non-placebo-controlled trial
tells you absolutely nothing about the effectiveness of the treatment. It's
true that it does tell you if the treatment is safe, but I think it's fair to
say that that information is "next to useless", as there are an almost
infinite number of potential treatments. The _only_ way to know if any of them
are effective is to do a placebo-controlled trial.

Still, I think it is a plausible treatment, so hopefully there will be some
better trials.

------
ifnaut
I owe my entire successful career in science and mathematics to repeated use
of LSD in my late teens/early 20's. It woke my desire to seek answers to the
underlying mechanics of the universe. Before that, I was just a high school
drop-out with low self-esteem, no direction, and no positive role models.

~~~
bashinator
I have read that LSD can induce your brain into learning states similar to
that of a baby, where new connections (and disconnections?) are able to be
formed effortlessly. Given your experience, I wish there were more research
being done. It could be another tool to help people overcome trauma or
personality disorders.

~~~
jjawssd
This is definitely what it feels like at least.

A sense of raw novelty is evoked with our lack of understanding of the world
around us becomes focused front and center.

Everything is beautiful in its own right. And the fractals in all of existence
thoughts and visions run infinitely deep but we can almost grasp them.

------
Torgo
It worked for me in my 20's, but I think if I tried it again in my late 30's,
it might make things worse. Mushrooms don't let you hide problems from
yourself.

~~~
theseatoms
Then how exactly did it work for you in your 20s? Did it help you realize that
you didn't have problems?

~~~
dionidium
_Did it help you realize that you didn 't have problems?_

Something like that. This is actually a pretty common sentiment. I know a lot
of people who experimented with psychedelics in their 20s who in their 30s
have said some variation of, "I don't think I'd want to do them now. I have
too many things on my mind."

~~~
jjawssd
I completely agree with this as I am in the same boat!

But what people in their 30s really mean is they are unable to relax because
they have so many more obligations and problems on their mind.

But believe me -- this problem is remedied by hanging out with good, positive
people you trust and removing yourself from a stressful environment.

~~~
Torgo
Nah, for me it's an admission that some things are now harder or impossible to
reverse course on. You can't reverse time, and making dramatic changes to your
life after you're settled with people depending on you has the potential to
upset a lot more lives than your own.

~~~
exelius
I dunno, I think psychedelics can actually help you accept that fact and rid
yourself of any nagging "what if?" questions (i.e. mid-life crisis scenarios,
etc). For most people, they're more likely to confirm your sense of identity
than challenge it. They're great for helping you rid yourself of your
insecurities.

------
sev
> It took 32 months between having the grant awarded and dosing the first
> patient, says Nutt. By comparison, it took six months “to get through the
> machinations” for his team’s previous studies using the equally illegal
> drugs LSD and MDMA, he says.

I thought we were making progress...

------
nxzero
Says more about how poorly the brain is understood than anything else.

Also, very possible that the measures that were take to keep people "safe"
were a factor. Anyone know if there was a control group given the same
treatment (double blind) - but with a placebo? __________

EDIT:

Direct link to the related research paper:

Psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression: a feasibility study

[http://www.thelancet.com/pb/assets/raw/Lancet/pdfs/S22150366...](http://www.thelancet.com/pb/assets/raw/Lancet/pdfs/S2215036616300657.pdf)

~~~
hippich
I wonder what could be given as placebo tho. It is not like you do not notice
you are tripping.

~~~
lawpoop
I think in Johns Hopkins studies they were using amphetamines, and also they
recruited people who were hallucinogenic-naive.

~~~
DigitalJack
But then you'd have to do a study of amphetamines and depression. It's really
tricky to come up with a sham effect in a placebo without destroying the
integrity of the control group.

~~~
jjawssd
Can't you physically isolate the two groups somehow?

~~~
DigitalJack
The problem with studying a drug using control groups and placebos is that for
some drugs (such as marijuana, LSD, etc.) people will know that they must have
gotten a placebo due to the lack of effect.

Researchers will sometimes use a substitute to create some effect that a naive
participant may believe to be the real thing, but it can be difficult to be
convincing. This can damage the integrity of the control group because they
would know they hadn't gotten the real thing (and thus possibly negating the
placebo effect).

People who know they got the real thing may see benefits that are actually the
placebo effect, and if your control group isn't able to control for this
effect, it lowers the quality of your study.

There are also moral issues with tough studies such as last ditch experimental
studies on stage IV cancers. Even in a double blind study, the research will
know they are giving placebos to some of the participants, and thus have no
chance of helping them.

------
stuxnet79
Is there any literature in their efficacy in treating anxiety disorders? As
somebody who's suffered from severe anxiety since my mid-teens and had it
cleared up more or less from medication I'm extremely interested in seeing how
Psilocybin would affect the disorder. I would be quite willing to try it out
but I'm very hesitant because I suspect my underlying anxiety would undermine
the experience and possibly leave me in a worse off state than before.

~~~
fapjacks
Hey, so... I've got pretty severe PTSD from my experiences in combat. Loads of
anxiety. I have to tell you since you made this point, that mushrooms
specifically have helped me so tremendously to manage the anxiety. The way I
describe it to other veterans (to encourage its use among people suffering
from these disorders) is that mushrooms help ground me by providing a safe,
chill, unique experience that I can later use as a point of reference when my
anxiety gets bad. Make sure you know what you are putting into your body,
don't take too many, don't eat them in a strange environment (a quiet weekend
night in your living room is a good place), and only do mushrooms with someone
you know and trust (and who has experience with the experience). You will
thank yourself for doing it. It will change your life for the better if you
follow those simple guidelines.

------
pasbesoin
More anecdote leaning towards truth that my friends were self-medicating and
not simply "doing something bad."

I am now, well into middle age, firmly in the camp that I missed out, due to
fear, propaganda, and mis-information. And that my life might have been much
better if I had not bought so heavily into that message and instead had
"experimented". Trust your observations; not blind authority.

Anyway... I'm currently trying to overcome a combination of symptoms,
thoughts, and feelings, stemming from years of abuse, PTSD, and eventually
significant knock-on physical health effects.

In the past, I've tried SSRI's, NSRI's, Wellbutrin. Immediate, horrible
reactions to each. The only thing that helped was a small dose of Adderall --
much lower than standard. And St. John's Wort. Almost impossible in the U.S.
to find a doctor who will agree to simultaneous use of both -- unlike in
Europe, so I understand. And the doctor I found was a jerk who almost cost me
my chance to purchase next year's health insurance, due to his lack of
response on paperwork. So, no more Adderall.

I'm ready to try magic mushrooms. Maybe a low, pure dose of ketamin. Or
perhaps MDMA. Under supervision -- medical or simply experienced and well-
intentioned. But, there is no avenue for this.

And big pharma and the "war on drugs" will do their best to keep it locked
down.

I simply have no trust left in the Establishment, in the U.S., with respect to
medical practice. Or, very select trust, in individual practitioners. Who are
often caught in a system that severely hampers their ability to actually
practice effective medicine and treatment.

~~~
darreld
I agree with you completely. When I was young I smoked a lot of weed but was
afraid of LSD and mushrooms. Now that I'm nearing 60 I feel that I definitely
missed out. Since dealing with pretty bad anxiety from, I assume, extreme
stress at work for decades, I'm ready to try mushrooms and, in the right
setting, LSD.

My problem is availability.

~~~
pasbesoin
Except for one minor contact high at a party, I never even experienced weed.

I have a friend who had strikingly similar experiences as a child. She quit
school for a while and got high daily -- mostly weed, as I understand it.
About the age of 21 or 22, she got herself back into school and now has a very
successful professional career.

Drugs may indeed destroy some people. But, the messaging is far too simple --
and simplistic.

And, those people often are not helped. They are simply castigated and
ostracized.

I don't mean, at all, to make light of such circumstances. And, I have
currently been helping someone -- help to the tune of dozens of hours per week
and hundreds of miles driven, and hundreds of dollars -- who came darned close
to being lost, herself.

I'd still trade my life for hers. She's lived hers -- mistakes and all.

------
kolapuriya
I really do believe some of the more negative stereotypes and stigma is
beginning to lift surrounding the therapeutic use of entheogens. Like you
stated time and accurate information with disciplined research hopefully leads
to change. I think we have all seen that occur with marijuana for both medical
and recreational use. I am very optimistic about the future of psychedelic use
for those that need it and those that desire it.

------
alva
Lots of people with positive experiences with psilocybin in this thread. I
have also had many incredible experiences and advocate its use, with
conditions. But. And this is a very important thing to know before anyone
reading decides to try it for the first time.

Psilocybin experiences can be truly traumatic. If you have existing mental
health issues, please be very, very careful before you decide to take it. Do
all the research you can. I have one friend who went completely over the edge,
reached the point of no return. It triggered a predisposition to a horrible
mental illness. It has destroyed his life and his familys. For a small number
of people, this can happen.

If you think you might be vulnerable to this but still want to go ahead,
please make sure you are responsibly and get an experienced sitter and a safe,
familiar setting.

~~~
fucking_tragedy
> I have one friend who went completely over the edge, reached the point of no
> return. It triggered a predisposition to a horrible mental illness. It has
> destroyed his life and his family.

Have any details you're comfortable sharing? Particularly the mental illness,
what happened when they were triggered and how often they dosed?

~~~
alva
Sure. They had an incredibly bad time with the trip, far worse than what you
usually associate with a bad trip. Violence, screaming, paranoia, gibberish.
All stuff (maybe apart from the violence) that can happen on a bad one, but
this was extreme. Setting was familiar and safe, no external stresses during
the period. This was his first time with mushrooms, although regular cannabis
smoker (which also might have caused an issue). Regular dose.

The next few days he was still recovering, but thoughts still very scattered
and incoherent. Unfortunately this didn't taper off. I had not seen him for a
few weeks until his family were in contact. The behaviour had become
drastically worse, violence and paranoia. Eventually he was diagnosed with
schizophrenia.

From what I have read, with a certain kind of predisposition it would have
probably manifested itself later in his life if he was unlucky.

I don't want to put people off Psilocybin as it can be an incredible thing.
Just be damn careful and do your research.

~~~
fucking_tragedy
Thanks. I ask because I've also seen this happen before to someone who was
diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder. They had a history of dosing often,
enough that I'd consider it unhealthy for someone who had a clean bill of
mental health. They've returned to "themselves", but clearly suffer
significantly from the disorder along with their family.

It's more than sad that this can happen to people. I'm someone who has had
beautiful experiences with mushrooms, but also have a family history of
schizo-* disorders. It's put me off from taking psychedelics again. It's a
risk I don't want to take now that I'm old enough to realize the possible
consequences. I recently "lost" a cousin in his late 30s to drug induced
schizophrenia after he experienced psychosis on cocaine.

Psychedelics are amazing substances, but family mental health history and
set/setting are crucial to keep in mind before ingesting.

------
peterwwillis
I like how marijuana and psilocybin have no negative side effects and it's
taken hundreds of years to be taken seriously as clinical treatments.

Meanwhile, according to the FDA, there were "56,000 emergency room visits,
26,000 hospitalizations, and 458 deaths per year related to acetaminophen-
associated overdoses during the 1990s. unintentional acetaminophen overdose
accounted for nearly 25 percent of the emergency department visits, 10 percent
of the hospitalizations, and 25 percent of the deaths [per year]." [1]

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracetamol#Liver_damage](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracetamol#Liver_damage)

------
joesmo
The irony of psilocybin classification as a Schedule 1 drug is that it's not
even addictive. But then again, the US government and America in general has
never let facts get in the way of their goals to ruin people's lives. People
have known this is an effective treatment for depression for many years. How
many lives have been ruined simply because of its being illicit and
unavailable to treat patients who needed it? When I think about it that way, I
can't help but hope these murderers will one day get justice, but I know they
won't.

------
niccaluim
Twelve people. No control group. And as a person who has suffered lifelong
depression, and up until 2.5 years ago had serious substance problems: duh,
drugs change the way you feel.

I'm not saying there's nothing worth exploring here. My personal intuition is
that psychedelics could be a huge help in some cases, especially for
treatment-resistant depression. But this "study" isn't worth squat.

------
notadoc
On a similar note, there are many studies about ketamine administration (the
anesthetic) having positive impacts on depression and chronic pain.

There are ongoing clinical trials, it has been widely covered in media lately,
and many major US cities have doctors who run ketamine clinics.

[https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00088699](https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00088699)

[http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/03/what-its-like-to-
treat-...](http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/03/what-its-like-to-treat-severe-
depression-with-a-hallucinogenic-drug.html)

[http://www.npr.org/sections/health-
shots/2015/09/28/44320359...](http://www.npr.org/sections/health-
shots/2015/09/28/443203592/club-drug-ketamine-gains-traction-as-a-treatment-
for-depression)

Is it really surprising to anyone that mind altering chemicals could alter
mental states? A silly question, obviously.

------
jarmitage
This is more excellent work by ICL and the Beckley Foundation. Science is
rapidly changing in this area.

Check out their publications list from this year alone, a few world firsts in
there:

[http://beckleyfoundation.org/resources/science-
publications/](http://beckleyfoundation.org/resources/science-publications/)

------
trhway
i think we'll be looking back at our time with amusement to say the least -
these people, like millions others, were having serious problems for decades
(17.8 years avg in the article) while known remedies like cannabis, mushrooms
and other stuff is just prohibited out of the irrational fear and powergrab
desire driving the war on drugs.

------
pigpaws
Legalize, standardize, tax, repeat. Why is it that difficult? People will do
anything to keep their grip on (perceived) power - even if it means destroying
someone's life.

Gov't doesn't really want jobs, or tax revenue at the expense of their jobs.
What would cops do if they weren't locking up kids for a joint?

~~~
eloff
Not everything is a giant conspiracy theory. If society changed to the point
where drugs didn't have such a stigma against them, then the politicians would
legalize them. They excel at doing things that are popular - be it good or bad
things. Case in point Canada with their goal of legalizing marijuana.

It's harder to do that in the US because you have more conservative people who
see drugs as morally repugnant. My prediction is blue states will continue
legalizing and red states will be the last holdout.

~~~
chestervonwinch
On the other hand, much of the stigma comes from the illegality.

~~~
fnordsensei
Sweden has a long history of strong legislation and rhetoric against all kinds
of drugs (except alcohol and tobacco of course). This lead to some pretty
strong advertising of the type "One marijuana will leave you a mindless and
desolate husk! Don't do any of the marijuanas!". Shown in schools even.

Because of the propaganda to science ratio, this had the awkward effect on
people who nevertheless ended up trying weed that they sometimes assumed that
the authorities must have been lying about the other drugs as well. So, "Weed
didn't kill me. I guess the other stuff is a lot less harmful than they made
it out to be as well".

------
Alex3917
Does anyone know what species is in the picture? Someone on the Flickr page
asks if they're Cyanescens. My guess would be Allenii just based on the fact
that they were found in San Bruno, but I don't have a good species concept for
either.

------
sageikosa
Going through that whole process to run the trial could easily lead to
depression.

------
trub
I'm shocked!

------
sageabilly
It's great to see the advances in research that are being done around
Psilocybin, MDMA, and Ketamine as the results that are coming out look
incredibly promising.

That being said, godDAMN how in the hell is anyone ever going to take studies
like this seriously when they're being reported as "Magic Mushrooms" in
Scientific American of all places? This isn't raver kiddies eating dried who-
knows-what out of ziplock bags at raves, this is a controlled dosing of
psilocybin in a medical setting for treatment of a serious illness. The stigma
around researching these drugs is never going to go away unless the language
itself changes.

~~~
davidw
> Scientific American

My wife got that for a year, and I was quite unimpressed. It's not _that_
detailed, mostly, and there's a lot of not very rigorous editorializing, from
what I recall. Also, their 'please renew' campaign was quite deceiptful,
sending us some kind of "you owe $$$!!!" notice that was really "you owe $$$
if you want to resubscribe".

~~~
function_seven
> Also, their 'please renew' campaign was quite deceiptful, sending us some
> kind of "you owe $$$!!!" notice that was really "you owe $$$ if you want to
> resubscribe".

It amazes me how the entire magazine industry is like this. The most staid and
respectable publications have circulation departments that make my local used
car dealer look like a saint. It's a huge disconnect, and has always bothered
me.

~~~
aninhumer
I remember when I was subscribing to The Economist, and they had a dark
pattern in the process to trick you into paying for another publication. I
strongly considered cancelling (and only didn't because I was ordering for
other people as well.)

------
trub
not surprised

------
mickgiles
They needed a study to show that magic mushrooms make you happy? That is why
they are called "magic" mushrooms

------
jtwebman
12 people isn't a scientific study! Where is the control group? I think maybe
we need a few more studies before people go out and start eating magic
mushrooms to not be depressed.

~~~
soundwave106
I'm a bit skeptical of just one small study too. From what I am aware, there
have been plenty of other 5-HT2A agonists that are not the "classic"
psychedelics out there in the labs, and I rarely see them thought of as anti-
depressants in Wiki pages etc. (5HT2A agonists being thought of as other
treatments? Yes, treatment of migraines and glaucoma have been mentioned in
some of the articles -- one example here:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AL-34662](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AL-34662)
\-- but a lot of things seem a long way off even there.)

But there's precedent, so who knows. Remember a few years back there was
several articles about ketamine being discovered to also helping major
depressive disorder? These articles still appear in fact:

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-
science/a-one...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-
science/a-one-time-party-drug-is-helping-people-with-deep-
depression/2016/02/01/d3e73862-b490-11e5-a76a-0b5145e8679a_story.html)
[http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/03/what-its-like-to-
treat-...](http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/03/what-its-like-to-treat-severe-
depression-with-a-hallucinogenic-drug.html)

From what I am aware, this revelation _was_ a big deal at a deeper level, in
that it showed a new pathway to relieving depression -- glutamate. Previously
I think almost all anti-depression drugs was based around serotonin. Ketamine
on the other hand is an NMDA antagnoist (the NMDA receptor being one of the
main binding sites of glutamate) so was completely different than SSRIs.

Hallucinations are honestly considered a "bad side effect" for a clinical
anti-depressant, so there has been a fair bit of work in developing drugs that
modulate the NMDA receptor / glutamate in a way that relieves major depressive
disorder without the psychedelic effects.
([http://www.medpagetoday.com/psychiatry/depression/54448](http://www.medpagetoday.com/psychiatry/depression/54448))
I know that one of them, Rapastinel:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapastinel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapastinel)

Has seemed to move rather quickly through the FDA clinical trials, currently
phase 3 / FDA fast track.

I suppose you could attempt to gobble ketamine, too, to try to self-medicate
your way out of depression. But there are risks with that approach. (Short of
waiting for the big pharmaceutical approach, there are "ketamine clinics"
which, while definitely "off label" / experimental, are at least a more
controlled way of attempting this treatment.)

