

Ask HN: Review my startup CanYouCode.com - jeswin

http://www.canyoucode.com<p>CanYouCode is a freelancing website, which is different in the following ways:<p>1. Minimum rate of $35/hr - likely more. (you can't find good freelancers for anything less.)<p>2. Profiles are reviewed before being allowed to bid - We verify LinkedIn profiles, Open Source contributions, Blog, proper web standards etc.<p>Basically the idea is to target developers who can't survive on the $10-20/hr at Elance or oDesk. Currently we are accepting signups only from the US and Europe.<p>We would like inputs on: 
1. It is interesting? 
2. How to get traction? 
3. Should we apply for YC Winter 2011?<p>Thank you.
======
petervandijck
1\. Yes, it's interesting to have a curated place to get good developers, even
if it's more expensive. However, I think you might need to do more than the
things you've listed so far.

2\. Make sure your clients have a really good experience and then help them
promote you.

Since this is a marketplace, you have to stimulate both supply and demand.
Supply: contact good coders and ask them to sign up. Demand: work very hard to
get clients into the system, and follow up with them.

Also: the name "canyoucode" is aimed at developers, that's not very good,
should be aimed at clients. And finally: having the site full of dummy date is
kind of crap. I would go with a closed beta. Again, you have to stimulate
supply and demand: you need to make sure that your first coders get good
clients (and then blog about that), and that your clients get good coders (and
then blog about that). I would make it closed beta at first.

~~~
jeswin
Thanks.

This is one of the things we plan to do. In fact, our backend lets us make
pre-filled developer profiles which just need to be 'activated'.

edit: You are probably right about the dummy data. We could try a closed beta.
This has been up for just a few hours.

------
jacquesm
I don't think it is fair to discriminate by country, it would be _much_ better
to only discriminate by capabilities.

What the price is should not matter either, unless you are looking to set up a
shop that people will know will overcharge or where the people from the 'west'
can set up shop without competition.

~~~
jim_dot
What's wrong with making the site region-based? Maybe don't discriminate by
country, but certainly limit people to their own region/country. If people are
looking for slave labour from India there's always Elance.

~~~
notahacker
If there are Indian freelancers with verifiable high quality work, OSS
contributions etc. they deserve to be able to compete on a level playing field
with similarly qualified Americans. You could always design a filter for those
people who for whatever reason were only looking for developers in their
timezone/country/city

~~~
jeswin
We definitely want to be more inclusive. Just taking one step at a time. We
want to maintain a high quality median. Basically want to see quality content
everywhere.

------
jacquesm
From the name I thought it was another code judge.

~~~
AmberShah
Me too. You may want to consider integrating Code Antgem badges too as part of
a user's profile. Email me amber@codeanthem.com to discuss.

~~~
lanstein
You may want to consider not spelling your company's name wrong.

------
3pt14159
Canada and Israel have a ton of excellent coders too, you should let them in
as well.

~~~
GeneralMaximus
India too. Sure, there is a large pool of "career programmers" here who write
terrible code, but you can always weed them out.

Edit: What prevents you from allowing people from other countries from signing
up? Isn't this just a service that connects clients with programmers? From the
looks of it, you aren't even handling payments or doing anything else that
could get you into trouble with law enforcement.

------
mike-cardwell
The signup process is causing me problems... It seems to be geared towards
companies with only a single member...

It asks me to select a username and then states:

"Your company's url is <http://www.canyoucode.com/username>

Both me and my partner want to sign up but we can't both have the same
username, but it seems wrong to have two separate company urls...

We both want to set up individual profiles and then link them together as a
company profile...

~~~
jeswin
We probably need to do a better job of communicating this.

1\. The username is assigned to the company; users cannot login individually.
2\. But once you login, you can add various user profiles and credentials to
the company profile.

~~~
mike-cardwell
It's definitely not clear. I still don't get it... In the "Email Address"
field do I put my companies shared email address, or my own personal email
address? Same for the Linked In profile. Both of us have individual Linked In
profiles...

~~~
jeswin
The first user becomes the "Admin". We will indicate this.

Once you log in, you can add as many "employees" as you want to the company
profile. (Note that one employee (admin) was already added during Signup).

This is sort of similar to basecamp. But we haven't done a good job explaining
it on the site.

~~~
mike-cardwell
It all made sense when I was finally in. I don't usually have this much
trouble figuring out sign-up forms, honest ;)

------
alinajaf
I think this is a great idea, but am I the only one who thinks the minimum
rate should be more like $70? This would widen the perceived quality gap
between this and Elance IMO, but I'm guessing you've probably done a lot of
research before settling on $35.

~~~
jamesbritt
I do not expect to get anyone skilled for $35.00.

Perhaps that's an ignorant assumption, but I don't think I'm alone in this.

Charge more.

~~~
jeswin
Our idea was to tie the minimum rate to an acceptable monthly income in the
US/West for decent living standards.

$35 * 160 hours per month = $5600 a month

Of course, there is nothing stopping consultants charging more. The idea was
simply to do away with ridiculously low rates.

~~~
mxavier
This approach isn't perfect, as people have pointed out, but I think its
better than the alternative. A lot of freelance coding sites are practically
unusable from the employer's side because every yokel can give a low rate and
not even read the project description. I think forcing those people to try to
prove their worth and getting rid of some riff-raff employers that underpay is
a net gain.

------
ergo14
Tried to sign up, unfortunately my country which is a part of EU is not there
(Poland), but so are others missing. You should at least allow for every EU
member to participate when it comes to "europe"

~~~
CWIZO
+1

There's not much logic in that country list. I kinda understand (but not
really) that Slovenia (my country, part of EU) is not listed there, but
Austria, Switzerland, etc are also missing. That means I can't register and
give you more feedback.

~~~
ergo14
Actually I DON'T understand it. If it's EU that means there shouldn't be any
"law" problems when it comes to users of this country.

And I'm sure your country has many brilliant minds to offer - same as any
other country.

------
tialys
I see an employer has already posted a job that seems to break the $35/hour
rule. In this case a 100 in 1 iPhone Game App (including artwork!) on a $1000
budget. Which, even at 1 hour per game works out to $10/hour.

What checks do you have on the jobs posted by employers?

~~~
jeswin
That post was likely created by an employer who wanted to test the site.
CanYouCode has been up for just about 7 hours now.

In future, such posts will be removed. The site will initially be moderated by
us. Eventually, we want to bring in more user participation in this
moderation.

------
huherto
The idea is very interesting. I like the idea of minimum $35/hr. To take the
idea further, avoid using pricing as a signal, and protect the buyer as well,
$35/hr could also be the maximum. That will take rates out of the equation.
After that competition will be to get the most rewarding work, with emphasis
on work quality.

As a developer, I may even be willing to pay a screening fee, if I would be
able to get good quality work.

Apply to YC. You will get support, ideas, and make great relationships. That
will also help you get traction and gain credibility.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
_$35/hr could also be the maximum_

Are you serious? That's about what my wife charges to give horseback riding
lessons, and we live out in the country. Near a big city it would be a lot
more expensive. I'd like to think that even an average developer should expect
more per hour.

~~~
donniefitz2
Couldn't agree more. Don't set a maximum. That's way too low. If you want to
be a premium Elance, you can't set a max.

------
mMark
Personally, I agree with others that the $35 minimum may be a little
restricting on new developers who are trying to build site experience. Maybe a
new developer rule could apply in which for the first 5 or so jobs the
mandatory minimum is waived when they're sending in offers.

You could also have something like Gold Star, Silver Star, Bronze Star rating
for new developers so as to alleviate anxiety from selecting a bid from a new
buyer.

New user star rating earned by things like, experience and references from
their LinkedIn, Open Source attributions, and a rating on their website (by
standards, how many posts their website has - don't tell them that can help
their ranking though. Also could include in the ratings formula any tests that
they completed on your site if you implement that (maybe make it so the
highest rating they can be without completing any tests is Silver Star even if
their resume is above and beyond).

I agree with everyone else who mentions escrow (most definitely) and testing
for developers.

What hasn't been mentioned yet is some kind of work tracking system. I
personally don't like systems which seem like big brother is looking over my
shoulder as I code (you know which sites I'm talking about), but a system
where the dev could post a snippet of what they're doing or even the ability
to post the updated source (to be archived and viewable by you only of course,
to be seen in cases of a dispute in hours).

~~~
Qz
_Maybe a new developer rule could apply in which for the first 5 or so jobs
the mandatory minimum is waived when they're sending in offers._

Wouldn't this just incentivize people to keep making new accounts? If there's
going to be a minimum, there shouldn't be any exceptions or it defeats the
point and allows people to game the system.

------
bobds
I don't like the arbitrary minimum rate but I do see how it would
differentiate you from the rest of freelancing marketplaces. I think it would
be better to have different minimums depending on category and type of work.
There is no reason why data entry or similar should start at $35/hr, It just
shouldn't be $3/hr. Could also have different minimums for different
countries, freelancers have different standards on what's a good hourly rate,
many of them can do fine with $20/hr.

Other pain points to address:

It's very tiring having to bid on dozens of projects and never getting any
work. This is a major problem for new freelancers. You have to lowball dozens
of bids in hopes of getting your first ratings.

Something like Odesk's tests for freelancers but higher quality.

Buyers should also be reviewed not just freelancers. Putting money into escrow
before accepting a bid should be mandatory, at least for new buyers.

I've used about five different freelancing websites in the past but it's been
a while since then and I think a lot of problems are not coming to mind now.
I'll let you know if I think of more pain points I would like to see
addressed.

EDIT: I tried signing up but my current address is not in a country listed in
your dropdown menu. I don't see why you would limit Europe to a handful of
countries. If you can do business in one EU country, you can do in all of them
thanks to the economic union.

~~~
jeswin
Will be doing that tonight. The initial plan is to have North America + (all
of)Europe.

~~~
bobds
Another thing you should do is change the company name and company website to
optional. A lot of freelancers have neither of those and it feels weird to
make up a company name and use a personal blog as a company website.

------
ErrantX
The "Technology" edit box in your profile is absolutely horrible; I spent
about 5 minutes trying to type stuff in - it randomly deletes stuff if there
is a typo.

------
kbrower
Changing phone number is broken and there is no way to delete your account.

~~~
jeswin
Thanks. Will be fixed in the next build.

------
ramanujam
Providing the option for the developers to show github and stackoverflow
profiles might be a good.

~~~
jeswin
Stack Overflow, GitHub, HN is already included.

------
jeswin
Clickable: <http://www.canyoucode.com>

------
thinkalone
Fantastic design! It can really set you apart from the more "corporate"
designs of Elance/oDesk. It's a great idea to have the marketplace have a good
design and aesthetic to position yourself as different from the kinda sketchy
RentACoder-type sites.

How will you distinguish your review process and qualifications from the
certification tests that oDesk offers? Arguably your internally-reviewed
approvals will be more valuable than "User X passed the HTML Level 1 test" but
how will you communicate that to clients searching your site for freelancers?

~~~
jeswin
Thanks.

The review is something we hope to figure out soon (as we reach volumes that
we cannot handle ourselves).

We are looking at how the quality on HN stayed sane over the past years. And
how we can include crowd-sourced moderation and ratings without people gaming
the system to their advantage.

------
nl
I'm sure you'll get a lot of developers sign up, so the supply side is fine.

But how are you going to generate demand? I know a number of people paying
~$20/hour on elance for developers (usually from Eastern Europe or the
Phillipines). None of them are complaining about paying too little (or about
the quality, or the language etc).

Your site is right when it says "Great talent does not work for peanuts". But
$20/hour is great money in many places - why would someone want to pay more?

------
zabraxias
From a usability perspective you should add more technologies and make the
textarea itself bigger.

I can appreciate the need to control the terms you are allowed to choose but
lets say someone releases a new JS framework tomorrow and it hits major
popularity in a month - your site might still not have this. Perhaps this
should work as pseudo-tagging.

In any case I love the idea since I want to take on part time project gigs
apart from my full time job.

------
aarongough
Just signed up, looks pretty good. 2 suggestions:

1) Having a linkedIn profile shouldn't be required to sign up.

2) The 'pages' associated with an account don't seem super useful to me right
now. A lot of my most interesting work is not graphical in any way, so given
that the main element of a 'page' is the image that is not super helpful.

Maybe a 'projects' section as well/instead? That way I can provide links to
GitHub pages or whatever.

------
vindicated
I think people might find some of the statements on the page offensive. Such
as the implication that 'real experts' are only found in the west. Or that
people from the east work for 'peanuts'. Sure they work for less because they
need less to support a decent lifestyle, but that doesn't mean they're working
for peanuts.

I realize the intention is good, but there must be another way to get the
message out.

------
NEPatriot
As a person who hires coders I've been looking for something like this for a
while. I think another helpful service you could provide would be to (for a
fee) help non technical people describe the project in the way a developer
would want to see it.

~~~
lanstein
Can you put your email in your about so it's visible in your profile?

~~~
NEPatriot
done

------
chunkyslink
Great Idea.

I just tried to sign up and got this error

Internal Server Error

Yesterday it worked. Today it is not working. Internet is like that.

You can go to the home page, or shout at us.

~~~
jeswin
Sorry about that. Fixing.

------
donniefitz2
This seems a bit like The Ladders for freelancing. You can quote me on that
(JK). On a serious note, I would set the minimum higher. I don't get up in the
morning for less than $50 per hour.

------
illdave
This is probably the smallest nitpick ever, but thought you'd like to know
there's a typo in the header - "Guaranteed minumum" instead of minimum.

~~~
jeswin
Hey thanks. It matters!

------
ideamonk
<http://www.masterbranch.com/> creates real resumes out of open source
contributions.

------
daniel-cussen
What if you're a US citizen living abroad?

~~~
jeswin
Expanding to other regions need to be done gradually. Otherwise we will end up
being just another freelancing website.

~~~
kranner
Can you explain your reasoning here?

~~~
jeswin
We want to give a portal where Western companies at least have a chance
competing (minimum rate). Presently, they struggle on the other freelancing
sites because of the rock-bottom payouts there.

The result is that really good talent from the West stays away from
freelancing portals, because they just get lost in the volumes out there.

This is not a good situation, since there is a ton of great talent in the West
(probably more than anywhere else).

~~~
daniel-cussen
Thx.

------
pstinnett
Signed up to see how things worked. Is there an easy way to delete my account?

~~~
anup
Sorry, not yet. We can have your account deactivated.

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mobl
Seems like a great idea, will give it a show!

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aundumla
Why only few countries from Western Europe?

