
Video Games Aren't Art, We're Better - phenylene
http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2016/09/no-video-games-arent-art-were-better.html
======
zaaakk
Awful article. If you've never read a book that could captivate you as much as
Doom, then you've probably just never read literature at a serious level.

I stopped reading when the author offered clickbait "best games of [year]"
lists as evidence of the artistic accomplishment of video games. I'm totally
excited by video games as a medium, but I've never seen anything that compared
in creative quality to something like Pynchon.

~~~
ralusek
The author was an idiot for trying to make it a competition, but so are you if
you think you have a point here.

The question is always if games even qualify as a medium by which to express
art, for which the answer is of course. Once you accept it as a medium for
art, there is no question of what is "better." That's just up to you.

Some of the best artistic experiences I've had have come from Portal 2, Ori
and the Blind Forest, Papers Please, Okami, among many others. I'm not here to
argue if Pynchon is better, to me he's not. There's no competition, because
it's subjective, and a waste of an argument.

~~~
zaaakk
Yeah, I'm not saying they aren't art. They are, and like I said before, I'm
excited about the medium. I just don't think there's anything with the
intellectual depth or creative virtuosity as Pynchon-yet. It's a young medium
with a high bar of entry.

~~~
hueving
So you're saying you have an opinion on which art is better? Not worth
discussing IMO. Might as well argue about which religion is correct.

~~~
awesomepantsm
Yes, you can have an opinion on which art is better. You can also argue about
which religion is better. If you've never done either, I recommend it some
time. Having opinions and forming arguments can be very fulfilling.

------
skybrian
Nice rant, but part of the argument seems to be that games are lucrative and
addictive so they're better. That would be true of gambling too.

The question is, are they worth spending time on? I do spend a lot of time on
certain video games, and I have my doubts.

It's sort of like someone saying a book was so compelling that they read it in
one sitting. Yeah, okay, so the plot sucked you in, but are you happy
afterwards that you did that?

~~~
zzalpha
_Yeah, okay, so the plot sucked you in, but are you happy afterwards that you
did that?_

Uh, yes.

Why wouldn't I be?

Should art not be compelling? Enjoyable? Must it necessarily be "challenging"
(whatever that means) to be "worthwhile" (whatever _that_ means)?

Frankly, the real problem with the author is they give a crap what people
think about games as a medium.

Art. Not art. _Who cares_? When Dickens was writing, he was writing to
entertain a mass audience. At the time I'm sure there was someone somewhere
complaining that since it wasn't written in Latin and thus accessible to folks
it wasn't worthwhile.

And in the end it just doesn't matter.

So enjoy your games or books or comics or whatever captures you and let others
do the same. Life is far too short to waste time giving a crap about stuff
like this.

~~~
r_smart
I think he correctly points out, though, that the games industry and culture
have a massive self-esteem problem. For the most part, when it gets kicked, it
just lays there and takes it. He may be a touch effusive in his positivity
about games, but it's for a reason.

You can argue the gaming subculture shouldn't care what people outside of it
think, but it's too often been picked on and used as a scapegoat for societal
ills. Ignoring that kind of 'opinion' is a bad idea.

~~~
zzalpha
_You can argue the gaming subculture shouldn 't care what people outside of it
think, but it's too often been picked on and used as a scapegoat for societal
ills._

I don't think gaming has been a specific target of moral panic for 10-15
years. It's far too engrained in our culture, now. I'd argue the Internet has
taken its place in that respect.

Hell, I'd say the pervasive belief that gaming is somehow under attack is the
exact kind of victimhood you're talking about.

Gaming is accepted. It's here. It may not be taken seriously by some, but to
that I repeat: who cares?

~~~
r_smart
So you've missed the attempts to blame videogames for school / mass shootings?
Or do you think that doesn't qualify as an attack on the community?

~~~
zzalpha
Apparently. Citations, please, and not just from the odd right-wing politician
trying to drum up votes. I've never seen a serious news article making a claim
like that in the last ten years.

Fun fact: googling for "video games mass shootings" finds nothing of
substance, other than the odd article about Hatred, which is a very specific
case.

~~~
r_smart
Okay, firstly, just because you don't respect the opinions of right-wing
politicians, doesn't mean no one does, and it doesn't mean it invalidates my
claim. Would you say the same thing about gay marriage ("Show me opposition to
gay marriage, but don't use right-wing politicians!"). That's just silly.

Secondly, you apparently looked at your search results with your eyes closed.
I typed in the same terms and got some Christian news, as expected, which was
published this year [0]. They're half the country (in the US at least), so
don't tell me it doesn't count when we're talking about people attempting to
blame it on video games. I also got an article by CBS News talking about the
'complex link' between video games and mass shootings, published in 2013 [1].
An article from Fox News (again you may not like them but they're a huge
player in the cultural space) published in 2013 [2]. And an article that links
through to a piece written by a member of the gaming press lamenting the
presence of violence in video games in the wake of the Orlando Shooting [3].
These are all in the first 10 results from the search you claimed to do.

Getting really crazy, I changed the search to "violent video games mass
shootings". Advanced level stuff I know. In addition to some of the
aforementioned, this also yields a piece from NBC news (video, requires flash)
[4], an op-ed from CNN saying not to link video games to mass shootings (the
author didn't just wake up one day and write that, they wrote it because it
was happening), which also has links to 'research' claiming there's a link
between violence and video games [5] and another piece from Time, written in
the wake of the Sandy Hook shootings [6].

Actually using some knowledge of matters, I searched for "Call of Duty Mass
Shooting" and got this same article that keeps showing up at the top of the
search results, from Charisma news (I've never heard of them but Google wants
me to read their stuff apparently) [7], an article from CNN written in 2012
[8], an article from the Guardian written in 2012 [9], and several articles
published in the Daily Mail [10] [11].

That should be plenty of reading material from within, not only the last 10
years, but the last five. So let's move on.

For some reason you rule out Hatred. Why? It was a game that got banned from
Steam briefly for being too violent and depicting playing a mass killer.
People were worried it would beget more violence of the kind depicted in the
game.

And of course there's the ongoing battles with Grand Theft Auto. Banned in
Target Australia, many news stories having been run about those games. San
Andreas got a lot of attention in particular.

Lastly, I wouldn't even know where to begin getting you local newscasts
pitching the same tired arguments, but there are plenty of them.

> I've never seen a serious news article making a claim like that in the last
> ten years.

We're talking about the larger culture looking to blame video games for
societal ills. Why does it need to be a 'serious' news article? If half the
country aligns with Fox News, and Fox News runs a piece decrying video game
violence, and politicians push legislation on these ideas, does it then still
matter that _you_ don't consider Fox News to be a serious outlet? Also, I
distinctly recall a clip from the Daily Show where Jon Stewart is objecting to
the latest (at the time) Mortal Kombat game. No idea how to find that.

[0]:
[http://www.christiantoday.com/article/mass.killers.in.us.all...](http://www.christiantoday.com/article/mass.killers.in.us.all.found.to.be.addicted.to.playing.violent.video.games/67910.htm)

[1]: [http://www.cbsnews.com/news/violent-video-games-and-mass-
vio...](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/violent-video-games-and-mass-violence-a-
complex-link/)

[2]: [http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2013/09/12/training-
simulation-m...](http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2013/09/12/training-simulation-
mass-killers-often-share-obsession-with-violent-video-games.html)

[3]: [http://www.theverge.com/2016/6/12/11914658/electronic-
arts-e...](http://www.theverge.com/2016/6/12/11914658/electronic-
arts-e3-press-conference-gun-violence)

[4]: [http://www.nbcnews.com/id/7288381/ns/us_news-
crime_and_court...](http://www.nbcnews.com/id/7288381/ns/us_news-
crime_and_courts/t/school-shooter-followed-video-game-like-script/)

[5]: [http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/20/opinion/ferguson-video-
games/](http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/20/opinion/ferguson-video-games/)

[6]: [http://ideas.time.com/2012/12/20/sandy-hook-shooting-
video-g...](http://ideas.time.com/2012/12/20/sandy-hook-shooting-video-games-
blamed-again/)

[7]: [http://www.charismanews.com/culture/52651-14-mass-murders-
li...](http://www.charismanews.com/culture/52651-14-mass-murders-linked-to-
violent-video-games)

[8]: [http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/19/tech/gaming-gadgets/games-
viol...](http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/19/tech/gaming-gadgets/games-violence-
norway-react/)

[9]: [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/apr/19/anders-
breivik...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/apr/19/anders-breivik-call-
of-duty)

[10]: [http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1226588/Call-Duty-
Po...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1226588/Call-Duty-Political-
storm-brutal-video-game-allows-killing-civilians-airport-massacre.html)

[11]: [http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2153218/Violent-
vide...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2153218/Violent-video-game-
Call-Duty-linked-high-profile-mass-murder.html)

------
panic
_They take over your brain and let you get lost in them._

Video games are kind of like musical instruments in that they're an artistic
object designed to be used and "gotten lost in". You may or may not consider
them art in their own right, but the real point is to play them. We've spent a
long time figuring out how to make art with musical instruments, but making
art with games is very new. With fewer constraints and the right game design,
I think technical performances like speedruns and TASes could develop into
something like a true art form.

~~~
Sylos
I can agree that it's in theory possible that a videogame becomes as
expressive as a musical instrument, but in reality I don't see that happening
in at least the next 30 to 50 years.

A musical instrument is much more direct. Want to play grumpy and loud? You
play grumpy and loud. Want to play soft and singingly? You can do that. Every
nuance is controlled by you, down to the finest grain. It might sometimes not
sound exactly like you want it, but then you can still train to get it right.
There's no limits.

Videogames on the other hand are much more digital/binary. You can't swing
your sword in the exact way that you want to swing it. Instead you usually
just either swing it or don't swing it.

You might get something akin to a melody, for example in an RPG you build your
character's story by choosing to swing your weapon or not (as well as other
such things), but a melody by itself, without artistic interpretation, is
hardly art in the same sense.

~~~
FrozenVoid
"A musical instrument is much more direct. Want to play grumpy and loud? You
play grumpy and loud. Want to play soft and singingly? You can do that. Every
nuance is controlled by you, down to the finest grain" That is answered by
choosing classes and character builds, item-setup and gameplay strategies.
There is far more gameplay variety than several choices of what to play on a
single instrument. Video games allow more flexibility than choosing to swing
the sword. You pick skills, choose where you play, choose which items and
artifacts you use, which quests to complete, what clans to join, which
server/shard to migrate to, which players to fight, which players to
ally/party, what to sell, what to buy, where to explore, what to seek. I
advice playing a few MMORPGs before considering the genre an simplistic linear
story.

~~~
throwanem
> That is answered by choosing classes and character builds, item-setup and
> gameplay strategies.

Speaking as a formerly avid and still somewhat interested gamer, and also as
an amateur tuba player who misses his horn, I really can't agree with you
here. Both forms of expression have value. But they are not really comparable
with one another.

------
fsloth
Where is the need to validate games as art coming from? I don't hear Kasparow
insisting chess is art (at least continuously). Since we lack a conclusicve
definition of art I can't for the life of me fathom why it would be important
to get this label.

There is stuff people do on the higher steps of Maslow's hierarchy of needs
(i.e. spending time on other things than survival). Some of it is about
creative self actualization and self improvement, other stuff is just about
enjoying one self.

The best non-survival stuff improves the individual and provides epiphanies.
The worst kind creates repetitive non-value adding habits which people are
compelled to do.

Video games are a medium which provide both. Modern video games are packed
with industrial art and design. Some provide a playground for creativity.
Others provide incredible unforgettable scenes. And others are just slot
machines. Is a slot machine art? What's the Venn diagram of the sets 'art' and
slot machines like? Which one is truthier statement - "All video games are
art" or "some video games are art".

I have no answers. All I know is that claiming "video games are/are not art"
is silly. Maybe it's about being jealous of the fame and meager stipends
artists get. Or creating a defence againsr nasty relatives who conside video
games a waste of time?

~~~
frik
Good comment! As you mentioned video games provide both. On the one side there
are games that are like slot machines, that attract causual players woth
repitive grinding mechanics and be addictive and maybe even harmful for longer
consumption. On the other side there are great games that let the player
express himself, let him be creative, let him shape the world, let him decide
which path he goes. The later category brought us superb games like GTA V,
Deus Ex, Minecraft, Mafia, Age of Empires, Flight Simulator, Last of us, etc

~~~
elbows
I think that the addictive quality is a key component of all games -- perhaps
especially the great ones. In a good game the compulsion is balanced with the
creative/rewarding aspects to create an positive experience.

But even then I often find that the addiction outlives the reward. If I play a
great game for an hour, it's engaging and satisfying. Two hours in, I may be
tired and frustrated, but the addictive quality keeps me going past the point
where I ought to take a break.

For me, the experience often ends up a net negative. I play longer than I
intend to, neglect other activities, and am left feeling restless and
unsatisfied.

~~~
frik
You are right. Interesting. It may also depend on the gaming device. On PC I
am used to be able to save a game at any point. (except for some console
ports) I think that makes a huge difference, as there is then no need to play
another level or play past another save point, I just hit ESC and click on
save and close the game when I want.

Sadly more and more games are multi platform and even if they allow you to
save it's often only outside/after of a mission, or even if they allow you to
save at any point, if you load the save game you are reset to the last
invisible save point and have to replay it from there. That's the most off-
putting experience and I am pretty sure it also manipulates people to play
longer than the want, and as many don't know better (don't even know the free
saving possibility from PC) they don't have a bad taste about it.

Quick save and quick load also is or was part of popular PC games, I mentioned
above. It allows one to try out something, if it turns out that it was a
really bad idea, I can go back and try it in a different way - something
that's invaluable in Deus Ex 1 and RTS like Age of Empire series. With console
games like Uncharted series or GTA series it's not possible, and I wish it
would be possible (at least on PC were the disc space for save games is let's
say near infinite). A really cool feature that I know only from Codemaster
racing games (and Braid) is the playback feature, that allows you to go back
in time (1-2 min) and try it again in a different way. I wish most games would
come with such a playback feature, it's really great and useful. And games
could limit it to eg 5 playback activation per level like Codemaster games
(depends on easy/medium/hard level).

------
wellpast
> I love literature and theatre. I love great movies. Yet, I can't remember
> any work of art, no matter how good, that consumed and drained me as much as
> the Cyberdemon in DOOM.

But unlike many encounters with art, DOOM never changed my worldview.

~~~
sskates
I remember one of the most mind blowing moments for me was the big reveal
halfway through Knights of the Old Republic. Dunno if it counts as "changing
my worldview" but it was the same feeling I got after watching The Matrix- I
didn't know I could be so impacted by art.

~~~
creshal
KotoR's storytelling is on a much different level than DOOM's, however.

DOOM only has an excuse plot to make you go and rip out demon intestines,
which is the main feature of the game. With KotoR, the story is.

------
mikekchar
One day I want to write a game that is as powerful for me as Tonari no Totoro.
It's a silly kids movie, but it simply drips Japan. I can't even put into
words how complete that movie is. From the unspoken backdrop of the story, to
the lush scenery, to the sounds of nature, to the character design...
Virtually every frame has something to offer the viewer.

To me it is a historical artifact. Just like the author mentions of games, it
_transports_ my life to that of a child in post war Japan. I have not played
any game that gives an experience like that. I am actually quite a big fan of
fantasy, science fiction and fiction in general, but this movie blows me away
by how real it is (despite containing a bus made out of a cat).

I think video games have a lot of potential, but generally lack focus. In fact
the long running nature of games and ability to explore everything works
against them. The more freedom you give the user, the harder it is to focus
them. They push the boundaries and find that there is nothing behind them.
Alternatively, they are locked into a perspective unnaturally.

Video games are a great medium for art, but I think there is still a lot of
virgin territory to explore.

~~~
wishinghand
It's not "My Neighbor Totoro" but "Ni no Kuni" is a very Miyazaki-esque video
game. It drips his style, if that's enough of a consolation prize.

~~~
mikekchar
Thanks! I will definitely check it out.

------
jaywunder
I don't see why the author feels the need for something to be _either_
immersive or art – or whatever dichotomy he's trying to draw here. There are
plenty of paintings and books and music that transport people. There are
plenty of video games that don't. Media is media, no matter what form. The
quality of the media will discern whether the media is good or not, the form
of the media doesn't matter.

------
danso
> _We 're winning because we offer something better than art. We offer
> Experience...Stop using the word 'art'. Erase it from your dictionary. It's
> too weak a word. I want nothing less than to compel you. I am coming to
> consume all your thoughts, all your attention. I want to absorb you to the
> point where it threatens your marriage and your livelihood._

Not all art is passive though. There has been performance and interactive art
that can be pretty engaging. "Sleep No More", for instance. So I think the OP
needlessly argues about the popular connotations of the word "art"

That said I completely agree with him that games such as "Last of Us" are not
the ideal when it comes to video game as art. Just because a game's cutscenes
can compete with a feature film in terms of theatrical quality does not mean
it's great art _as a video game_. Nor does lacking cinematic quality
disqualify a game from being art.

So far my favorite artistic epiphany from a game, not including games that
shoot for being "art" more than being a playable game, came from the original
"Portal".

There's a segment late in the game where you're asked to kill a inanimate
object that you've been carrying around for most of the game. You _know_ that
it's inanimate. Yet as the narrator taunts you, I was tense the entire way
because I was almost convinced it was a living breathing thing, solely because
of the length of time I had been interacting with it. I half expected it to
scream when I killed it. When nothing happened (I think) I laughed out of
sheer relief. It was a feeling much more intense than watching a horror movie,
and the only reason it was so intense was because of the interactive role I
had -- both in carrying it and then killing it. That's the kind of unique
artistic experience that a game can have that's not easily replicated in other
mediums, certainly not film or books.

~~~
jayjay71
I think The Stanley Parable is a much better example of an artistic
experience. The creator made another game called The Beginner's Guide which I
thought was just as good.

Limbo, Papers Please, I Am Bread, Please Don't Touch Anything, are all good
examples of games I would also consider art. These games are genuinely
different and many of them are considered incredibly enjoyable by most people.

If you want something which really is just art and not much of a game, The Cat
And The Coup is free on Steam. Frog Fractions 2 is also free and you can find
it using Google (you have to play the whole game to understand).

For the most part I think gamers and developers are a bit sensitive about
their medium, trying to argue it's "art" because it has a positive
connotation. I think they should just enjoy it for what it is, as most games
are designed to be fun instead of something else. That said, I think VR might
try to change this. A friend of mine at Oculus mentioned how it's the very
early stages, comparing VR to movies from ~100 years ago. Back then they just
filmed plays, as they didn't realize what they could do with the medium. I'm
sure VR will have lots of typical blockbusters following generic formulas, but
I think indie developers (of which there are more every day) will build some
pretty incredibly stuff in the coming years.

~~~
danso
Ah yes, "Papers, Please" is also up there. I remember when the game was in
alpha people asked he author if he would add keyboard shortcuts and other
amenities to streamline the gameplay. He decided against it, and I'm glad he
did because I feel the clunky monotony of manually shuffling things around is
part of what builds empathy for the role. The work isn't supposed to be fun or
feel fulfilling; perhaps that's why some TSA folks aren't pleasant and seem to
relish the few opportunities to wield power over people.

That the gameplay _is_ actually fun is what makes PP shine to me. If it
weren't fun, then you wouldn't put in the time needed to feel like an
overworked border guard.

------
rurban
Since my name is a bit personally involved into this debate, I have to add
some arguments:

* Doom was only considered art by some people to prevent the German or British government from censorship. Remember, Wolfenstein is illegal in Germany because of the swastika, and Doom was banned in Germany for over 17 years for glorification of violence to protect minors. I.e. it could be sold and used, but it was illegal to advertise it. Similar to the movie "Starship Troopers" which was an artistic farce, not even a commercial game.

* The art aspect of Doom officially came with "Arsdoom". Only this game mod was considered art. By art historians and such.

------
cLeEOGPw
Video games are art. You can't be "Better than art" as art only means
"creation with intent", which is so broad even kicking a can down the hill in
a certain way can be called art.

------
RileyKyeden
Didn't this die out a week after the game press went wild with it back in
2013? The author of this post couldn't even find anything more recent than
Roger Ebert's article.

~~~
JanneVee
No it didn't die out. It has continued and even floated ideas like that the
players that are socially awkward are immature and shouldn't be catered to. It
didn't go over well with some people.

------
bananaoomarang
This argument always seems like a straw man to me. 'Art' is a broad and
loosely (looser and looser) defined term, there is no reason video games can
or can't be a part of that for you.

Many people seem to constantly yearn to define some sort of video game
literary canon. To earn that sort of platform takes many more years and a
society more willing to accept video games as valid emotional experiences
and/or effective question posers. They are not ideal for either, they are
ideal for producing addictive feedback loops. The author here is keen to put
these loops under the same banner as Kubrick or Tolstoy, presumably to justify
his investment to himself as much as anyone else.

Loving Doom is nothing to be ashamed of; you can love Tarkovsky films too.

------
partycoder
Some games are art some others are closer to artisanry.

Games like NBA, FIFA and others follow a known formula and stick to it. They
are more akin to artisanry than art.

------
mccoyspace
Great. Can we artists get our term back, then? Thanks.

~~~
idlewords
I think the hackers are still using it.

~~~
krisdol
Can hackers get their name back too while we're at it?

------
ensiferum
Oh what a sneaky advert!

------
mwkaufma
You "won't apologize for your craft" to who, exactly? You _just_ laundry
listed how games are a social, critical, and financial success. Where is this
high-culture-snob straw-man?

------
contingencies
Article meh, subject interesting. Question: Which games do you people feel
have replayability on the level of Civilization except roguelikes and original
Xcom maybe?

~~~
creshal
• Paradox' grand strategy games (Hearts of Iron 4, Victoria 2, Europa
Universalis 4, Crusader Kings 2, Stellaris) – they're Civ (/Master of Orion)
on steroids

• Dwarf Fortress – not so much a learning curve as a learning cliff the depth
of Valles Marineris

• Kerbal Space Program – also rather steep learning curve, and needs mods to
achieve proper depth, but _really_ deep with them in place

• If you haven't seen it already, OpenXcom is a proper remake/port of the
original game and just makes it run properly on modern machines (no more
DOSbox!), fixes the bugs (no more 80 items limit) and gives it a modding API.

~~~
contingencies
Thanks. Tried _Europa Universalis 4_ and _Crusader Kings 2_ and they don't do
it for me unfortunately. Also have tried _Dwarf Fortress_ but the permadeath +
weird story humour thing is just too weak an answer for time investment for my
psychology, though I admire the creativity in the game. _KSP_ haven't tried
yet, hear good things. _OpenXcom_ ... I prefer the original, also tried the
remake which I felt was sucky, fast and easy with no strategy only tactics.

~~~
creshal
OpenXcom _is_ the original, just with a new engine:
[http://openxcom.org/about/](http://openxcom.org/about/)

It plays exactly as the original, just with less technical limitations, like
on resolution:
[http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/42932168557625...](http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/429321685576251807/EEACB69071DB7206D45AC6A0CCBAF7A99A26FAB5/)

------
dschiptsov
World and behavior modeling - the AI parts of the craft, are definitely a next
level of an Art - the abilities we used attribute to our primitive gods.

------
mandem
This is why no one likes nerds.

