
A Great Response to a Cease and Desist Letter - shawndumas
http://abovethelaw.com/2013/06/how-to-write-a-great-response-to-a-cease-and-desist-letter
======
hawkharris
It's true that most cease-and-desist letters contain awful legalese, but
here's a great example of a well-written, classy one:
[https://brokenpianoforpresident.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/...](https://brokenpianoforpresident.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/jd-
letter-entire-big1.jpg)

~~~
michaelhoffman
What's nice about that one is it appears to fulfill their obligation to show
that they are policing unauthorized uses of their trademark without causing
any real harm to anyone else.

~~~
DanBC
Offering a contribution to reprinting is an especially nice touch.

~~~
jevinskie
They could have added another carrot: a donation to charity! IIRC, they didn't
need to, the author agreed.

------
digitalsushi
I remember back when I was 16, I did a web page about my home town, claremont
nh. I did this site:
[http://digitalsushi.com/midashi/claremont/](http://digitalsushi.com/midashi/claremont/)
I was working for an ISP in town, and someone with the town called up the ISP
to ask whom owned the site. Since I worked there, I was simply transferred the
phone call. You can imagine how contextually confusing that would be, to be
handed a call that technically had nothing to do with working there, and also,
being a dumb 16 year old on tech support.

Well, the guy was asking all sorts of questions. I felt very intimidated. I
remember clearly a phrase he left me with: "Well, this is just Big Brother
checking in and making sure you're acting in good faith." He decided that I
was, that I was not on a mission to sully the good city of claremont, and that
was the end of it. But it really stuck with me, probably just out of my young
age and the authority of a city official grilling me. 17 years later, the
troll I have turned into would have loved the chance to bring out the worst in
me, so it's probably good this happened when it did.

This article really brought me back to that time. Also, it's terrifying I have
web content I published over 50% of my entire life ago. I know some of you
have worse percentages, but that middle mark... yikes.

~~~
johnminton
"ask who owned" not "ask whom owned". "whom" isn't just a word to put in to
sound educated - it's used only when the "who" is an object. Here it is not.

~~~
to3m
For all intensive purposes, your right, but is they're really any need to go
over things with a fine toothcomb? As me and everybody else seems to feel, the
point hear is mute, and I'm sure yourself agrees. Its clear enough what was
meaned.

~~~
Domenic_S
What are you doing?! I think you just gave me cancer!

~~~
to3m
Cancer is unlikely, though some people can come out in a mild rash.

Exposure therapy is the usual treatment.

------
larrys
Don't agree with the humor and tact of this letter even though "it worked".

"Shmucking" someone can backfire in many cases and cause a bigger problem.

To be spiteful (I mean do we really know the mental state of the attorney
writing the c and d?) maybe he would decide pro bono to file some action even
knowing it might fail, on his own time, to defend his honor. Which this
attorney would then have to defend pro bono.

The other thing with regard to the listed domains is as they always say "don't
ask a question you don't know the answer to". They probably don't know whether
the others have been approached or not. And it doesn't matter at this stage
anyway. So what. Maybe he was the first one.

Lastly Kaplitt isn't known for expertise in either domain names or IP. If he
was he would know that very often people with bogus claims are able to wrestle
domains from people for bogus reasons.

Oh one last thing. In his letter he states that "ICANN rulings have held
that..." (or something like that). ICANN doesn't issue "rulings" _like that_
for this (.com). He is almost certainly referring to the UDRP cases not ICANN.

~~~
jelled
Agreed, I think he took it too far. I wouldn't want that letter to end up in
front of a judge if this thing did end up in court.

~~~
Tloewald
I don't think such letters have much weight in court except insofar as they
might involve breaches of professional conduct. I assume the writer has
something to back his claim of excessive property tax, so it seems pretty
safe. It also seems like there's some history involved.

------
guelo
Scribd is a parasite.

EDIT: oh look, the document is viewable again. I'm guessing someone paid
scribd their ransom fee.

~~~
coldpie
I love requiring javascript to _view_ _text_. The mind spins.

~~~
sp332
It's till better than needing a plugin or stand-alone app to read text in the
original PDF format.

~~~
kyrias
They could at least give you the choice, especially now that ~60% of web users
use a web browser with a built in PDF viewer and I'd bet that a large part of
the remaining 40% already have a PDF viewer with a browser plugin installed.

------
null_ptr
Sadly, the letter is unreadable on Firefox Android. It's like everything is a
widget these days, web pages are no longer self-contained, and usability,
among other things, suffers.

~~~
mitchty
Also unreadable where i work where scribd is basically useless. Would be nice
if people linked to pdfs instead of scribd.

~~~
DanBC
When someone submits a PDF to HN it'll be automatically changed to a scribd
link, so that's why you see so many scribd links to HN.

I know that doesn't help with this particular article.

~~~
Camillo
Why? Was Scribd an Ycombinator company? Is pg the devil?

~~~
wisty
Yes, and no; because once upon a time (when the decision was made) it was
really painful to hit a PDF, because you'd wake the memory-hogging, task-bar
infesting beast that Firefox wanted to open PDFs with.

------
fnordfnordfnord
Can I play?

[http://web.archive.org/web/20080402062531/http://pturing.fir...](http://web.archive.org/web/20080402062531/http://pturing.firehead.org/headsurfer.net/legal-1letter.html)

[http://web.archive.org/web/20080402062531/http://pturing.fir...](http://web.archive.org/web/20080402062531/http://pturing.firehead.org/headsurfer.net/legal-1reply.html)

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
The source of the above lawyer letter was headsurfer.net a site poking fun at
Robert Marsh, thin-skinned Houston internet magnate who often referred to
himself as "teh HeadSurfer" and employer of last resort for many college
students at U of H
[http://web.archive.org/web/20040103044611/http://www.headsur...](http://web.archive.org/web/20040103044611/http://www.headsurfer.net/)

More details:
[http://web.archive.org/web/20031017004205/http://www.headsur...](http://web.archive.org/web/20031017004205/http://www.headsurfer.net/hs-
pissed.html)

------
kevinalexbrown
This reminds me about how important it is to have a solid lawyer, and an
understanding of the legal ecosystem. Even in cases like this with typos,
"respond in ten (10) days" can be quite intimidating, especially when there's
a money/legal power asymmetry.

In one such case, Monster Cable issued a C&D to a much smaller, Blue Jeans
Cable. The founder actually worked in litigation for 19 years and I found this
portion of his response informative:

 _I have seen Monster Cable take untenable IP positions in various different
scenarios in the past, and am generally familiar with what seems to be Monster
Cable 's modus operandi in these matters. I therefore think that it is
important that, before closing, I make you aware of a few points.

After graduating from the University of Pennsylvania Law School in 1985, I
spent nineteen years in litigation practice, with a focus upon federal
litigation involving large damages and complex issues. My first seven years
were spent primarily on the defense side, where I developed an intense
frustration with insurance carriers who would settle meritless claims for
nuisance value when the better long-term view would have been to fight against
vexatious litigation as a matter of principle. In plaintiffs' practice,
likewise, I was always a strong advocate of standing upon principle and taking
cases all the way to judgment, even when substantial offers of settlement were
on the table. I am "uncompromising" in the most literal sense of the word. If
Monster Cable proceeds with litigation against me I will pursue the same
merits-driven approach; I do not compromise with bullies and I would rather
spend fifty thousand dollars on defense than give you a dollar of unmerited
settlement funds. As for signing a licensing agreement for intellectual
property which I have not infringed: that will not happen, under any
circumstances, whether it makes economic sense or not._

There are several obvious points to be made here, but there's a subtle one,
too. These hit-and-run settlements depend fundamentally on the compliance of
isolated companies. If a larger organization asserts control over a smaller
one (like the township-->$3.17 website, here, or on a larger scale
Monster-->Blue Jeans), it often _does_ make "economic sense" to settle.

It's almost a negative version of the Tragedy of the Commons / Public Goods
Dilemma. If every small company stood up and said "no, we will not settle"
then there would be far less incentive to pursue bogus infringement claims. On
the other hand, it always, locally, makes sense not to challenge claims and
let some other small company deal with it.

This brings me to one broader point, and that's the idea of standing for
something on principle. I don't mean this in the sense of "be a moral person",
but in the sense of larger organizations assuming (often correctly) that the
short-term economic sense of individual actors will outweigh any principled
objections they hold to the circumstances imposed by the power asymmetry.
Cultivation of principles which favor the latter instead of the former course
of action might be a good solution to the public goods dilemma outside of a
difficult to ensure coordination of action.

It's worth thinking about this in the context of Google and its recent stance
against an entity with an enormous amount of legal power.

[http://www.audioholics.com/news/industry-news/blue-jeans-
str...](http://www.audioholics.com/news/industry-news/blue-jeans-strikes-back)

~~~
jarrett
> On the other hand, it always, locally, makes sense not to challenge claims
> and let some other small company deal with it.

I would argue in favor of fighting back in most cases, even from a local
standpoint. "Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute." How you
behave towards bullies sends a powerful signal to other bullies. Your response
can either encourage more bullying, and thus a cycle that ends in your own
destruction, or ward them all off.

I very much agree with your comments overall, though.

~~~
zem
Kipling put it well:

    
    
        It is wrong to put temptation in the path of any nation,  
          For fear they should succumb and go astray;  
        So when you are requested to pay up or be molested,  
          You will find it better policy to say: --
    
        "We never pay any-one Dane-geld,  
          No matter how trifling the cost;  
        For the end of that game is oppression and shame,  
          And the nation that pays it is lost!"

~~~
rustynails77
This is an ideal time to bring up the Mongols. Anyone in Eastern Europe that
paid the Mongol tax still exists. The inverse can be said for those that
didn't pay, or decided to fight.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_under_the_Mongol_Em...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_under_the_Mongol_Empire#Strategy)

I respect Kipling's quote - but history shows YMMV. If in doubt, just ask why
you don't hear of the Khwarezmid Empire - who were one of the biggest empires
around at the time of the Mongols.

~~~
zem
fascinating. a definite counterargument to the kipling quote.

------
tomasien
My dad writes response letters like this. He's taught me so much about how the
law actually works, he should design a class that is mandatory for all
students to pass the HS.

~~~
oz
Any stories you can share? I'd love to hear more.

------
ctdonath
In the early heydays of the Internet, I recall ati.com featuring a comment to
the effect "there are 147 companies claiming rights to our domain name. Get in
line."

------
mherdeg
There was a confusing bit in the "P.S." section in this letter which read like
some kind of veiled threat to expose the city for tax fraud, or for some kind
of tax-related misdeeds.

What was that all about?

Is it generally a good idea to put veiled threats in responses to cease-and-
desist letters?

~~~
RKoutnik
The amount was the same as the town paid for their web site. ($5,000/yr for
hosting? Ludicrous.)

~~~
Jgrubb
In fairness, $5,000 a year for hosting and maintenance, but $28k a year in
property taxes? Good ole Jersey.

~~~
brown9-2
I think that amount was across a few years.

------
JeffJenkins
I really enjoyed reading the Something Awful legal threats (although I didn't
read the site itself):

[http://www.somethingawful.com/d/legal-
threats/](http://www.somethingawful.com/d/legal-threats/)

It's unclear if Lowtax just got bored of responding or people stopped sending
them.

------
thejacenxpress
I secretly wish I had the background law knowledge to screw with people who
attempt to send these letters. I get C&D letters from youtube because my
videos allegedly contain copyright music. The funny part is that my videos
only contain my voice, which I'm pretty sure is not copyrighted.

~~~
cperciva
_my videos only contain my voice, which I 'm pretty sure is not copyrighted_

Your voice isn't copyrighted, but you might infringe if you were singing a
copyrighted song.

~~~
anoncow
>you might infringe if you were singing a copyrighted song

Or if your video happens to be one of those which youtube partners don't like.
Youtube, apparently, has a deal independent of the DMCA, which allows big
media compan(ies) to ban any video on youtube.

There was a discussion earlier today on HN, in which I said I still trust
Google. This is one incidence where Google could have tried to follow its
motto of "Do not be evil". Youtube exists because of DMCA safe harbour. Even
though DMCA has shortcomings, without it youtube would have to face a lawsuit
for every infringement. But, Youtube still chose to overturn DMCA, which
allows the user to file a counter-claim. And apparently, Youtube made a deal
with media companies allowing them to ban any video whatsoever without any
repercussions, which is downright evil.

[http://torrentfreak.com/youtube-deal-with-universal-
blocks-d...](http://torrentfreak.com/youtube-deal-with-universal-blocks-dmca-
counter-notices-130405/)

~~~
dangrossman
You could argue that this is the only arrangement in which YouTube can exist;
is having the site with overzealous copyright enforcement worse than having no
site at all?

Google may prevail in court if sued for the millions of instances of
infringement it hosts, but it'd still have to become the largest US employer
of lawyers to handle and fund the dozens of major lawsuits it'd face every
year. Is it profitable enough to do that? Does Google want to dedicate so much
of its resources to court battles instead of its core competencies? Even with
the DMCA, they still get sued.

~~~
anoncow
Would YT get sued by Universal even with DMCA, if YT did not have a special
arrangement with Universal?

Without the option of counter-claiming, Youtube is a monarchy. I do expect a
public company to have some sort of democracy, especially one who claims to
follow "Do not be evil".

~~~
dangrossman
> Would YT get sued by Universal even with DMCA, if YT did not have a special
> arrangement with Universal?

Why not? Viacom sued despite the DMCA defense.

~~~
anoncow
I concede. You have a point.

------
deepblueocean
It's hard to talk about great C&Ds without mentioning Chilling Effects,
[http://www.chillingeffects.org/notice.cgi](http://www.chillingeffects.org/notice.cgi),
a repository/database of many C&Ds and copyright claims, which receives copies
automatically of many letters sent to large websites.

Some of the content in there is particularly golden for humor value (search
"perfect 10"), but more importantly, it serves as a first step to quantifying
how many of these letters get sent and how many of those are legitimate.
Chilling Effects doesn't track what happens afterwards, but it's one step
above anecdote, anyway.

------
mathattack
Worked ok in Safari browser.

One wonders why more lawyers aren't humorous. Is it because it causes their
clients harm? Or because they are afraid they can't generate fees if they
don't look professional?

Here is another great example, between the Cleveland Browns and a fan. I cite
Snopes, otherwise I wouldn't believe it to be true.
[http://www.snopes.com/business/consumer/browns.asp](http://www.snopes.com/business/consumer/browns.asp)

~~~
the_watcher
It's because lawyers are often (to make a broad generalization), terribly
risk-averse. Judges can sometimes disapprove of not giving the law it's
"proper respect" (see Chad Johnson's recent stint in jail after being let
off). Also, oftentimes lawyers can just drop the relevant facts at hand into a
template. I'd bet the lawyer sending the C&D has sent a huge number of other
C&D's worded pretty much identically.

~~~
mathattack
The joys of using Word templates at $500/hour. :-)

------
tribe
The first time the page displayed for me, the response was shown as a 400 Bad
Request Nginx error, which would have been a great response to this kind of
C&D letter.

~~~
yaakov
[http://pastebin.com/enQyYvsQ](http://pastebin.com/enQyYvsQ)

------
csel
Best Part -

"Jake swears that was his actual cost. Looking at his website, I believe him."
LOL

------
vonskippy
This is just another sad reminder of how broke the legal system is in the
States. A simple fix, for this and many other types of legal bullying, make
the protesting party pay ALL legal fees and a stiff penalty if they lose in
court. Protects the clear cut owners who get infringed, yet weeds out bs cases
like this one. Since it makes sense, is fair, and would simplify things - you
know it will NEVER happen.

~~~
danielweber
That's not strictly better. You can be discouraged from suing big parties
because they may run up their own bills, which you would have to pay if you
lost. And losing doesn't mean your case was without merit.

There is no perfect answer. It beats the old days where people would have to
fight to the death to settle disputes, at least.

~~~
kreeben
Starting a company in teh USA is similar to plugging a winxp sp1 machine into
the network. Only a few seconds til the first law suit/virus. Zing!

------
mh-
enjoyable read.

i'm not a lawyer.. but i found myself wondering, if the Township followed with
suit, this wouldn't also qualify as a SLAPP[1]?

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_lawsuit_against_publi...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_lawsuit_against_public_participation)

edit: New Jersey hasn't enacted any anti-SLAPP legislation.

------
stox
The town of West Orange has been the subject of ridicule for some time:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUzs5dlLrm0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUzs5dlLrm0)

Pleasant Valley Way, the subject of the tune, is in West Orange.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleasant_Valley_Sunday](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleasant_Valley_Sunday)

------
dmelamed
In the spirit of great and hilarious legalese writing...
[http://www.chattanoogan.com/2008/2/26/122772/Chattanooga-
Sen...](http://www.chattanoogan.com/2008/2/26/122772/Chattanooga-Sending-
Truck-Load-Of-Water.aspx)

------
jmgao
I'm a fan of Lowtax's response to Ubisoft's cease and desist:
[http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=268...](http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2686438)

~~~
peripitea
Your link appears to be behind a paywall (must pay for archives access), but I
think this is it? [http://www.dmlp.org/threats/ubisoft-v-
kyanka](http://www.dmlp.org/threats/ubisoft-v-kyanka)

------
jordan0day
I'm not a lawyer, but is the P.P.S. portion some sort of thinly-veiled
reference to the way the original (c&d-sending) lawyer perhaps works with the
township?

------
cfontes
This is a master piece, thanks for submitting it.

It should be printed in A0 and glued in Law Colleges.

------
abe_duarte
This indeed is a great response. The domain owner is pissed an understandably
so.

------
robmclarty
Love it.

