

Supporting a talented wife in our misogynistic industry - vincentellis

My wife is a very talented software engineer. She&#x27;s also very good when it comes to handling business requirements and communicating that to the whole team, and also sharing her experience with younger developers. However, we work in a misogynistic, hostile and sexist industry. I&#x27;ve lost the count of how many times she came home frustrated, angered or even in tears, after being discredited, ignored or disrespected for no apparent reason other than being a woman. I&#x27;ve lost the count of how many times she told me about how she explained something to the team, with everyone bashing her, and after a few weeks, someone else (a guy) explaining the same thing and everyone praising the guy.<p>I&#x27;m sad and frustrated to see such a talented person being a victim of our industry&#x27;s worst problem. I want to help, to support her. But i have no idea how. This is why i&#x27;m writing this post: Women of HN, Women of IT... how do you deal with this situation? How can i, as a husband, help my wife and support her, other than just being there? How did you manage to bring respect to your work place? How did you manage to make a misogynistic asshole to respect you as a fellow engineer, and more importantly, more experienced?
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ig1
It's a mistake to jump to the assumption that it's just because of gender.
Exactly the same thing happens to plenty of other people, maybe it's because
the other person explained it in a different way, maybe because they don't
like her on a personal level (irrespective of gender). It might be related to
gender but don't discount that other factors could be at play.

In any case changing jobs would seem to be the obvious solution regardless of
the underlying reason.

~~~
vincentellis
She's very experienced and proficient with various technologies, so i don't
think it's a technical issue. I feel that colleagues might be "insulted" of
having a woman being senior and telling them what to do and how to do it.

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arh68
>ignored or disrespected for _no apparent reason_ other than being a woman

Well that's your problem right there. She hasn't figured out how to play the
game. The way you have framed the problem, it will never be solved. She will
never stop being a woman, and if that is the only thing you see holding her
back, there will never be a solution.

There are many disadvantages within IT, and being female is just one of them.
How about being black? Being from not-Harvard-MIT-Stanford? Being 65? Being
15? Not having a CS degree? Not having any degree? Not being able to speak
English clearly? All these things will hold you back. It sucks and it needs to
change, but it's a separate issue from helping your wife succeed.

She needs to strategize, play hardball, and burn the motherf __*ers to the
ground. They have to be beaten at their own game, and it 's not a technical
one. All's fair in love & war.

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cprncus
I think details matter here. What you've described is a little too general to
know what's really going on. For example, when you say "everyone bashed her",
what would we read in the transcript? How many is "everyone"? How was she
bashed?

I agree that it _might_ be sexism...and it might not. I'd have to know more. I
know a talented scientist woman who, at least in one point in her career, put
across a very "flaky" image to other scientists, and one of them told her so.
She felt hurt about it, but it was true. I think since then she has tuned up
her presentation style and probably doesn't get this concern now. But in our
context, it surely _wasn 't_ because she was a woman, because there were at
least 10 other women in her position that were not getting that sort of
feedback whatsoever; on the contrary, they were held in high regard generally.

If it is sexism (or at least that's a component of it), what a shame.

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bfitz
OK, I've read all the comments to date, and I'm angry at quite a few of them.

First off, here's a simple litmus test for "is X a misogynistic industry?".
Does X have 50% women working in it? If not, and there's no actual genetic
reason (e.g. this is an industry of literal sperm donors), then it is VERY
likely to have a strong misogynistic component. Is there a company with
software engineers where 50% of them are women? Never heard of such a thing.
Is there a company with software engineers and no misogynists? Never heard of
that either, at least not if the company has more than 10 employees.

Second, for all of you who jumped in with "it's a mistake to jump to the
assumption that it's just because of gender" \- wrong. You pick the highest-
order factor first, and only then do you go to lower-order factors.

Third, yes, America is far better than many other countries at gender
equality, but it is merely wretched instead of abysmal. I expect roughly 50%
participation in most job markets.

You can't sugar-coat and actually confront what needs to change. If sexism is
the #1 factor, you fucking deal with that right up front. Humans aren't
exactly the rational actors they think they are, so your ideas get less shrift
than if they were presented by a man. It's bloody easy to try this, present
the same ideas but by a man. Do you get the same rejection? Probably not.

Also, sometimes you need to fire people. You find the key movers that are
misogynists (everyone knows who they are, it's not a surprise), and you fire
them. Doesn't matter how good they are, they are preventing you from having
access to 50% of the human race.

I feel for your wife, and this is a tough situation, and there are no good
answers. Most people don't want to be the person that causes change, because
that person typically gets all the pain and no benefit. But things need to
change, and some of the comments you've received are appalling, the kind of
comment that 50 years from now people are going to look at and say "how could
people ever think that way?" In text books.

I wish I had some better answers. I've been struggling with this for a while.
For specific cases, often the answer is to go somewhere else. If you can't go
somewhere else, then if possible change laterally to a different boss who is
both powerful in the company and willing to help promote/push your wife's
agenda. While the tone of a company can be misogynistic, it's often just a few
people, so you need to either avoid them or work around them, or counteract
them.

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mathattack
My 2 cents (not a woman):

\- It may be bad in technology, but it's much worse in some other industries.
(Like Finance)

\- There are companies that are known for making a stand on discrimination and
other similar issues. She should actively seek one of these out, rather than
try to change the culture in a place that isn't.

~~~
vincentellis
Making a stand on this situation may lead to retaliation from the team.

~~~
mathattack
I don't mean individuals making a stand, I mean the companies themselves. Some
companies are visible and vocal about non-discrimination, valuing diversity
and being good place for everyone to work and advance their careers. One sign
is how many women and minorities are on their boards, and in senior positions.
Then look to see how vocal they are about these issues. If a company takes a
stand, it's a good sign.

This is why I say find the right culture, don't try to change the existing
one.

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helen842000
I think the situation needs to be evaluated objectively.

Are there any team members that are supportive of her? Does she enjoy the work
in general, how many instances are there where she has been
discredited/ignored etc? Is it escalating?

Is this an issue that is inherent in culture of this specific workplace. Would
moving to a new place of work solve this issue or do you feel that developing
strategies in general would help her to deal with these kind of issues at
whatever workplace she moves to.

If she intends to work in this industry long term then for her own peace of
mind she needs to define a way of working through these issues that sits well
with her and doesn't allow these individual instances to build into long term
unhappiness.

Some things in the workplace are just general friction, adversity, we all have
things to overcome associated with age, race, gender, background. We often
only see our own struggles, or our eyes get opened to those faced by people
close to us.

Although some issues can start small and escalate into big conflicts with a
specific person or management style.

It's important that we identify these small instances, note them objectively
(emotion removed) and then move on.

In the past I've dealt with similar issues by switching to presenting project
ideas solely in document form, or passing them on to supportive team members
to deliver. If those ideas get adopted at a later stage, then that's great,
what matters most for team progress is that the best ideas get implemented
regardless of who they come from.

If what matters to your wife is that her contribution is recognised then she
needs to put strategies in place that will enable her to record her own
contributions. It's unfortunate that she can't rely on her team to do that
fairly, however she shouldn't let it ruin her enjoyment of her role entirely.

I think as a partner, you can act as a sounding board for her frustrations -
possibly what she needs to say that she can't say in the workplace. Remind her
though that she isn't the only one experiencing this and that it's not unique
to her i.e to not take it personally.

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malandrew
I don't know if it is necessarily sexism or delivery or timing. I'm a man,
6'5", 250lbs, and I work as a software engineer. That being said, I've
experienced this exact scenario many many times:

    
    
        "I've lost the count of how many times she told me about 
        how she explained something to the team, with everyone 
        bashing her, and after a few weeks, someone else (a guy) 
        explaining the same thing and everyone praising the guy."
    

The moment she starts blaming it on sexism, is the moment she starts examining
whether or not she can change something about how she delivers her ideas.

Getting an idea accepted is also as much about delivery as it is about timing.
The reason I point this out is because at work I generally am a lot better at
having a longer view strategy wise than most of my colleagues and this is
something I find that women are also good at (and also the reason why people
compare Warren Buffett's investing strategy to that typically employed by
women). If you are too early with an idea and people are ready for it, then
you should come to terms with the fact that you may need to present it many
times over until people either come around to the idea or the timing is
eventually right to present it.

She needs to stop feeling like a victim and start thinking about persuasion
and why her ideas are failing to gain acceptance. It's not her gender but may
be related to her gender with respect to delivery. Change the delivery
deliberately.

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painterforever
I hate to be a stick in the mud, but is your wife attractive, young, always
well dressed and made (hair styled, makeup applied well, nicely accessorized)?
If your wife is what you would consider "a very pretty woman", she may be
discredited because she is in fact HOT. Our society has decided that hot women
are probably stupid women. It is the same case if you aren't so hot, if you
are ugly, you are probably also stupid. Perhaps the men tried to make a move
on her and she shot them down, and as punishment are treating her like a box
of rocks. Maybe there is another woman that works with her that is older and
less pretty and is trashing her behind her back. I had a older, burnt out
woman as a mid level super who treated me (and 2 other girls) like damn crap
because I (and the other girls) were young, students, and not fat and ugly
like her. She hated her life, and was insane and miserable. She wanted to
bring us down to her level. Your wife needs to find a new job. She is being
held back.

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MattBearman
Being male I can't begin to understand what your wife is experiencing, but it
sounds to me like she could do with working somewhere else. There must be
other, more forward-thinking companies that would love to hire her.

~~~
thejteam
My thought as well. The problem is this specific workplace. My wife has also
experienced the same things that the OP wrote about while a teacher and
librarian, two of the most female dominated professions in the country. And
this held true even when she has had female bosses.

~~~
vincentellis
Well, we're buying an apartment and changing jobs is not an option for both of
us. But i'm more worried on a general scale: what if the next place is the
same? (which probably is)

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pukka_my
coming to this a bit late, but I'm glad that you (a) recognize that your
wife's gender certainly plays a role in her career trajectory and (b) want to
help her without mansplaining like I see most of the commenters so far have
done. It's unfortunate but true that women are discouraged from pursuing
technical and scientific careers from elementary school on, and once we get
into this industry we are dismissed as 'not a good cultural fit' if we aren't
interested in halo marathons and competitive cycling. My solution, taken from
my consulting background, has been to send out 'contact reports' after
meetings summarizing what was discussed and agreed on and making note of who
is responsible for what - a paper trail is a wonderful thing, especially when
you cc key stakeholders (eg marketing) who weren't in attendance. I also had
to learn to take more responsibility for my own development and tell my
managers that I wanted to take on new challenges and what specific
responsibilities I wanted to have. I also am very assertive about scheduling
1:1 time with senior leaders to check and see what problems they need to
solve, telling them how I can help and following through. And when all that
seems like it's going nowhere, I have a 'lean in circle' of other professional
women once a month for peer coaching. Good luck to both of you!

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vermasque
She can either fix her workplace or get a new one. If she is as talented as
you say she is, then she should take her talents elsewhere. Vote with your
feet. I would not be so pessimistic to say that every environment would be
like this (at least in the USA).

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LeoSolaris
Handle it like any other abusive relationship. Make it an ex-.

