
Nintendo announced Switch Dev kits are $500 - shawndumas
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TheAceOfHearts
The Switch looks pretty neat, based on what little I've seen. I can't help but
hope that it'll get hacked and that a thriving homebrew community will sprout
up. When the PSP was around and kicking that was the main thing that got me
engaged in the community, and I still remember those years with fondness.

Assuming there's no glaring problems, I'll probably buy one when their new
Mario Kart game is available. I definitely have a soft spot for Nintendo.
Since real-life has pushed me to become a casual gamer, I've really started to
appreciate their simplicity and predictability. For solo, I've enjoyed every
Mario platformer, and I'll probably enjoy whatever they release next. For
parties, Mario Kart and Smash Brothers are always a blast with friends.

Even though it appears to be largely considered a failure by the community,
I'm actually pretty happy with the Wii U. I bought around five or six games,
and thoroughly enjoyed em all. As I wrote this, I decided to look up what
other games have been released since I last checked, and I just found out I
have a new Paper Mario game waiting to play :).

~~~
threeseed
Personally I hope it's not hacked. Indie developers now have a affordable,
interesting platform with relatively open tools.

There needs to be a commercial incentive for them to develop games.

Nintendo put all their eggs in the Switch basket and if it fails they likely
will never recover from it.

~~~
lmm
Nintendo generally prices their hardware to make a profit. It getting hacked
won't hurt them.

They've got an '80s mentality where the most important thing is making sure
there are no bad games published in their name - the whole "Nintendo Seal of
Quality" thing. It's not about the money, it's about control.

~~~
NTripleOne
>They've got an '80s mentality where the most important thing is making sure
there are no bad games published in their name - the whole "Nintendo Seal of
Quality" thing. It's not about the money, it's about control.

That's a pretty big lie, given the wii's massive library of shovelware
shitshows.

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webkike
When I first saw the switch I said that it could potentially become a huge
platform for indie developers. This is definitely a step in the right
direction, although I don't see why a devkit would even be necessary. Perhaps
you're paying for software? Will this open the portable market to indie
developers beyond phone games?

~~~
supergreg
Don't DevKits have extra ports for you to connect to the machine?

~~~
jclardy
The switch has a USB-C port though, which would be more than enough bandwidth
for debugging. Mobile dev's have lived with USB 2.0 connections for building
games just fine.

The problem is likely just that it becomes easier to install third party
software if there is some kind of Dev mode inside retail units...but
Nintendo's locked down hardware gets jailbroken anyways so I don't see the
point in hiding it.

------
revjx
This sounds like an excellent step for Nintendo, if it's true. The Wii U & 3DS
development kits are fairly expensive if you're hoping to bash out a title in
your evenings / weekends. $500 would give a leg up to those people who haven't
got a few grand kicking around to try stuff out on console.

I'm hoping they're also going to continue with the Nintendo Web Framework
concept, because that was a pretty smart idea too - having a web technology-
based execution environment alongside the Unity / Unreal / native stuff.

------
UnoriginalGuy
Just want to clarify something: This includes a developer Switch console ($300
value retail). I am guessing the extra $200 gives you additional developer
tools, documentation, and debug output and of course run self-signed software.

They also sound like they're working with Unreal and Unity to make migrating
games easier.

If the developer Nintendo Switch could run other developer's retail games
normally, I might consider buying one of these instead of a retail Switch just
to tinker on.

~~~
mileycyrusXOXO
>They also sound like they're working with Unreal and Unity to make migrating
games easier.

On a related note, Unreal 4.15 released support for Switch development.[0]

[0]- [https://www.unrealengine.com/blog/unreal-
engine-4-15-release...](https://www.unrealengine.com/blog/unreal-
engine-4-15-released)

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minimaxir
Doesn't the Xbox One allow you to use normal consoles as Dev kits, effectively
making it free? [http://www.polygon.com/2016/3/30/11318568/xbox-one-dev-
kit](http://www.polygon.com/2016/3/30/11318568/xbox-one-dev-kit)

Can't find recent information on PS4 dev kit prices, but given the number of
indie games I see on it nowadays (and receive for free with PS+), I imagine
it's not unreasonable.

~~~
shinymark
The price is under NDA but I can say that there is separate, special devkit
hardware for PS4 and it costs more than a consumer unit.

~~~
plafl
I find the video game console world so strange. Having to pay just to develop
feels wrong but that the price is under NDA feels ridiculous. IMO it shouldn't
be legal.

~~~
adanto6840
Apple charges to develop for iOS, correct?

~~~
citruspi
Not necessarily. They charge $99/year to distribute your application, but for
development you can run your application on your device for free[0]:

> You can launch your app on a device using a free Apple ID account, but the
> capabilities available to your app depends on the platform and your Apple
> Developer Program membership, described in Supported Capabilities.

You just won't have access to CloudKit, Game Center, Push Notifications,
Wallet, In-App Purchases, etc.

[0]:
[https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/ID...](https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/IDEs/Conceptual/AppDistributionGuide/LaunchingYourApponDevices/LaunchingYourApponDevices.html)

~~~
chipperyman573
Which is excusable - they're charging for their online services (essentially)

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emsy
I'm kind of on the fence on this one. I remember the Wii had a much higher
entry barrier but iirc still a lot of shovelware. A high number of games makes
discoverability harder for "serious" developers (people who don't produce
asset flips etc.) On the other hand I don't think this problem should be
solved by creating an artificial entry barrier.

~~~
pasquinelli
the reason the wii got all that garbage was because the console was such a
runaway hit with the casual market that publishers rushed out to get whatever
crap they could onto it. a $500 devkit doesn't have any effect on those
forces. the switch probably won't be the runaway hit with the casual market,
so publishers probably won't rush out to get whatever crap they can onto it.

------
CorpOverreach
Any clue if this will be able to also play retail games? Given Nintendo's
track record of keeping supply up with demand, some of us may consider just
paying extra for the dev kit...

------
eriknstr
That's still $500 too much amirite? Seriously though, while I'm fine with a
license charge for an official release, I don't see why there should be any
cost at all just to compile and run an unsigned binary on your own system.
Guess it might come down to anti-piracy measures.

~~~
snuxoll
Extra RAM and CPU cycles to run debug builds is a common feature of console
devkits.

------
sdegutis
Does this mean it's far more likely that indie game developers can get their
games in the legit Nintendo game store rather than some relegated "secondary"
game store like Xbox did in the past which nobody ever actually goes to and is
usually filled with junk (afaik)?

~~~
oxide
Xbox Live Arcade was absolutely terrible on the 360, akin to Steam Greenlight.

There were one joke games for a dollar, just like Steam has now.

There were overpriced games, bad games, shit games. Stuff that should be
shamefully hidden on a hard drive long forgotten.

I am certainly glad about the death of Greenlight, and from what I can tell
all the "indie@xbox" hype leading up to the launch of the One has been
unfulfilled, with those games seemingly ending up on the PS4 instead.

I suppose whoever sells the most consoles gets to have the most indie titles.

Then again, I don't own either console, so maybe "indie@xbox" is better off
than I'm thinking it is.

Nintendo had indie games like Stardew Valley ported over to the Wii U, IIRC,
so I expect to see similar footwork done for the Switch.

~~~
Scuds
Don't shit on the indies. Everyone has to start somewhere and most of the time
it's a student producing something with programmer graphics.

The only difference between Stardew Valley and something that languishes in
Steam Greenlight is the years of constant effort and feedback to produce
something of quality.

~~~
oxide
I didn't mean to shit on them with such a wide log of shit, so to speak.

I love indie games, but I think services like Greenlight have been long since
abandoned by anyone who cares and have been overrun by pay-for-vote services,
shovelware and pre-packaged asset packs being sold as a completed, original
title.

Luckily it's being killed off, after 800 votes on Greenlight I did nothing to
stem the tide of crapware flooding the platform. With over 40% of Steam's
titles added in the past year alone, there is clearly a problem with lowering
the barrier of entry to game development and publishing so far down that games
become mix-and-match premade assets, teenager developed memegames, etc. Is it
really "starting somewhere" if you're running a legal scam to make a quick
buck?

I did mix up the two storefronts, Xbox Live Arcade had some awesome indie
titles like Geometry Wars, etc. It was the other one that was basically a
dumping ground.

>most of the time it's a student producing something with programmer graphics.

this is fine by me, but don't you think something like that should be
shamefully hidden away, part of a portfolio, or better suited as a free
browser game? Or even a PWYW title on Itch.io.

Surely they don't need to be on Steam of all places.

Pixel Dungeon was an excellent mobile port of an excellent mobile game, was
priced fairly and is right at home on Steam. On the other hand, several mobile
titles are overpriced and poorly ported. I don't think that's what Greenlight
was intended to do.

------
normalperson123
what else goes into publishing for the switch? what kind of content
restrictions are there? is it like the app store where you have to be 100%
family friendly? what percentage of the sales do you get as a developer? will
they be cracking down on asset flipping games?

~~~
pasquinelli
i'm not an insider or anything, so you can take it with a grain of salt, but i
think the answer to all your questions is whatever is good for nintendo.

"what else goes into publishing for the switch?" whatever's good for nintendo.

"what kind of content restrictions are there?" whatever's good for nintendo.

"is it like the app store where you have to be 100% family friendly?"
whatever's good for nintendo.

"what percentage of the sales do you get as a developer?" whatever's good for
nintendo.

"will they be cracking down on asset flipping games?" whatever's good for
nintendo.

a game console isn't like a mobile platform. it's less like youtube and more
like a television network.

~~~
normalperson123
well in this case, asset flipping will be rampant, devs will get a shred of
the profits and etc.

------
tradersam
So my (somewhat unrelated) question is does the Switch replace both the Wii U
and 3DS or just the former? The Switch has mobile capabilities as we've seen
but does it justify a stop in 3DS sales/development/play?

Haven't done much research, just a thought.

~~~
delecti
Officially it only replaces the Wii U. That's so if the Switch flops, they can
release a "real" handheld successor to the 3DS in a few years

However when the DS was released they also said it wasn't a replacement for
the GBA, when that was also pretty obviously untrue. Additionally, word is
that Nintendo has merged their 3DS and Wii U game development efforts to focus
on the Switch.

They also don't really have any 3DS games on the radar for further out than
the end of the year. It seems safe to assume that Nintendo fully intends to
focus on the Switch going forward.

~~~
kyle-rb
>when the DS was released they also said it wasn't a replacement for the GBA

Did Nintendo really say that? I don't see how they could make that argument
when the DS literally had a GBA cartridge slot.

The Switch not replacing the 3DS is at least reasonable in theory (not sure
about in practice).

~~~
badlucklottery
>I don't see how they could make that argument when the DS literally had a GBA
cartridge slot.

Nintendo had just released the frontlit Advance SP a year and half before the
DS and had new GBA models in the queue (the micro and the backlit Advance SP)
when the DS came out. And behind the scenes they apparently had a single-
screen GBA successor in the works too. So they were fully prepared to drop the
DS if it failed.

It sounds strange in a historical context but at the movement it really was
just an experiment for them. GBA compatibility was relatively cheap so they
bolted it on.

------
nsxwolf
Isn't the real entry barrier getting Nintendo to accept your game? Unless
they're about to massively lower their standards...

~~~
pasquinelli
right, but there was a time nintendo wouldn't even look at your game if you
were a small indie team and not just anyone could get a devkit, even if they
had the money. nintendo is really conservative about this.

~~~
hkmurakami
Yeah met an indie team from Mexico last year at GDC who couldn't even get a
Dev kit for WiiU.

~~~
BoorishBears
My indie team got a dev kit with relatively little fanfare a few years ago,
maybe things changed as the program wrapped up.

------
Eridrus
Maybe this is the engineer in me talking, but I'm personally a bit surprised
that this is still a thing and Google hasn't invested in a system to let you
play Android games on your TV easily.

They could get further into the home entertainment category _and_ probably
drive higher priced sales to the Play store.

~~~
camus2
> Maybe this is the engineer in me talking, but I'm personally a bit surprised
> that this is still a thing and Google hasn't invested in a system to let you
> play Android games on your TV easily.

Remember this?

[https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ouya/ouya-a-new-kind-
of...](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ouya/ouya-a-new-kind-of-video-
game-console)

A failure.

ChromeOS will run Android applications. I don't think there is that much room
or market for yet another console system. Even the XBox one isn't selling as
much as Microsoft wanted; the PS VITA is barely selling outside Japan and the
Switch may be the last console for Nintendo if it fails.

~~~
Eridrus
Clearly HN even hates the suggestion, but the thing about an Android-based
console would be that it comes with all of the mobile games built in. Some
even already have controller support. You could even imagine a "console" that
was just a dock for your phone and existing wireless controllers that hit the
same price point as a Chromecast.

These things all exist in the Android ecosystem, but they're either built by
3rd parties or not really promoted.

~~~
dahart
> Clearly HN even hates the suggestion

You are suggesting [https://www.android.com/tv/](https://www.android.com/tv/)?

You might be jumping to the wrong conclusion about why your first post got a
downvote. I don't know, and didn't downvote, but I imagine it could be due to
talking exclusively about Android & Google in a thread about Nintendo dev
kits...

~~~
Eridrus
Android TV is one way to look at it, but there are others.

I probably phrased it badly, but I am actually curious about what people think
Nintendo's place in the market should be.

Making a new $300 console targeted at casual gamers doesn't seem the wisest
move these days.

~~~
dahart
Ah, thanks, that clarifies your question for me. I've developed both mobile
(including Android) & console (including Wii) games, but I still don't really
know how to answer your question.

I would probably say that the Wii was clearly targeted at casual gamers a
couple of years before the first Google app store even existed, so this is not
a new trend. I would probably also say that since the iOS & Play stores
recently exceeded Nintendo's revenues, doubling down on casual gaming may be
the right move or even the only market to go after.

I don't know how to claim what Nintendo's place in the market "should" be, but
there's no denying they've long been one of the dominating players, and that
they still are, even though they've had a decade of decline. The Mario & Zelda
franchises are still well loved and unrivaled in longevity by any other
series.

~~~
Eridrus
I guess Nintendo's play is to make exclusive games for the Switch and hope
that it's enough to get users to buy the console and then hope that enough
people buy it that developers are willing to make games for that platform.

Which I guess is everyone's console strategy, but it feels like a questionable
one when there are so many casual alternatives on mobile. It also doesn't seem
like a very consumer friendly strategy to me. With the Wii at least they tried
something new and there actually seemed to be a reason to make a new console
besides making money for Nintendo.

Are you planning on making a game for the Switch? Are you waiting to see what
sales numbers are like? What would it take for you to make a game there?

I'm not even going to joke about anyone making an Android TV focused game.

~~~
dahart
Yep, I think that's spot on, exclusive games for their console, and right in
line with their past behavior.

No plans to develop for switch or Android tv. More than anything having to do
with the consoles, just because I'm doing web dev at the moment not games.
Picking a platform is a big problem for developers, and why so many release on
all platforms, so I'm glad I'm not worried about it.

I enjoyed wii dev for a stupid reason: because you had to do so much old
school low level kind of stuff, there was some nostalgia in it. But it was
also painful and nowhere near as nice as Xbox dev. Sounds like the switch dev
env is modern.

------
jaimex2
Why are they announcing dev kits just now? This should have been done at least
a year ago.

~~~
flukus
Commercial devs would have got them long ago. They aren't relying on indie
devs to push systems like others do.

------
mrfusion
What happened to nes classic? I wish they'd focus on that befor starting new
stuff.

~~~
freeflight
They've been selling those since the end of 2016, so what's there to focus on?

~~~
mrfusion
They're continually out of stock. No place to buy one.

~~~
jamesgeck0
They were intended to be a one-off thing and were significantly more popular
than expected. It takes a relatively long time for any company to react to
physical product shortages.

The Switch is where Nintendo's bread and butter will be for the next several
years. It was in the works long before the NES Mini.

------
intrasight
Why are gaming consoles still a thing with consumers? Why wouldn't they just
buy a Chromecast and project phone/tablet games onto TV?

~~~
seabrookmx
Not sure if trolling.. or if you're just ignorant to such a massive industry.

Playstation 4, which is the best selling console of this generation, has
shipped 57million units, and Sony also makes publishing profits off many of
the popular games exclusive to their system. They also have a paid online
service. We're talking billions of dollars for Sony alone.

As for why dedicated gaming machines still capture so much of the market as
opposed to the "casual/mobile" gaming market:

-Latency would be too high via a Chromecast causing input lag in fast paced games such as shooters (though lower latency, gaming specific streaming services do exist from Sony, Steam, and NVidia)

-Graphical fidelity wouldn't be comparable. Consoles already are the butt end of many "serious gamer" jokes because they don't have the computational horsepower to provide equivalent outputs to high end PCs (Google the "gaming PC masterrace" memes)

-Touchscreens only serve as good inputs for some types of games (strategy and puzzle games come to mind). Racing games, fighting games, RPG's and platformers are usually tailored to controllers.

As I mentioned before, consoles are even mainstream considered to the gaming
PC market, which has a ton of dedicated hardware and revenue still despite the
desktop as a whole being on the decline (atleast with your average consumer).

~~~
intrasight
I shouldn't have generalized to "consoles" \- really was more interested in
why a consumer would choose the Switch (which looks more like a tablet) vs
playing games on a general-purpose tablet (with option of Chromecast to play
on TV)

Also, you can get bluetooth game controllers for Android.

Switch uses Nvidia Tegra X1 which is a regular tablet CPU/GPU so the switch
doesn't have something special under the hood.

~~~
radnor
People buy Nintendo sytems to play Nintendo games. You're not going to play
the latest Zelda or Mario game on a random Android tablet.

