
Code hidden in Stone Age art may be the root of human writing (2016) - longdefeat
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23230990-700-in-search-of-the-very-first-coded-symbols/
======
Razengan
> _Our ability to represent a concept with an abstract sign is something no
> other animal, not even our closest cousins the chimpanzees, can do. It is
> arguably also the foundation for our advanced, global culture._

Human chauvinisms.

Until we can objectively test the likelihood of humans that have never been
taught a language, like "feral children" [0], to spontaneously develop a
coding system on their own, can we really compare innate intelligence in these
areas across species?

For all we know, the trigger for such developments may be _watching others of
your own kind_ doing something odd, that is interesting or beneficial enough
to catch on for long enough to be passed on to offspring.

In the Blue Planet 2 series, there is a segment about an octopus and a grouper
fish, entirely different species, communicating with each other via gestures
and changing their skin colors, to work together in trapping prey.

Ants etc. use "abstract signs" of pheromones. Bees use 3-dimensional dances to
communicate. Are we dumber than them because of our inability to do that?

Intelligence certainly isn't a linear 1D scale with discrete steps.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_child](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_child)

~~~
charonn0
> Until we can objectively test the likelihood of humans that have never been
> taught a language, like "feral children" [0], to spontaneously develop a
> coding system on their own, can we really compare innate intelligence in
> these areas across species?

Nicaraguan Sign Language[1] developed spontaneously among a group of deaf
children.

[1]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaraguan_Sign_Language](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaraguan_Sign_Language)

~~~
Razengan
That's interesting, but those children were already exposed to civilization
and in contact with language-using humans.

How likely is a human to develop any of our abilities that we take for
granted, _in the wild?_

~~~
781
We tried to teach various animals language and mostly failed.

Thus there is indeed a class difference between humans and the rest of
animals.

The rest of animals seem incapable of this ability, even when we try our best
to teach them.

~~~
hyperpallium
Parent is arguing that they need to witness language use between members of
their own species, and then not learn, in order to show they are incapable of
language use.

The first human language user managed without this. (Though, if used for
communication, it takes two... so there couldn't have been _a_ first. OTOH
there's an argument that language is primarily for thought, not communication,
so it only takes one person. Secondly, evolution doesn't usually build a
complete perfect system, but iterates, gradually improving. A puzzle here is
that abstraction seems to be all or nothing, you can't have _part_
abstraction. One resolution is that the necessary neuro-machinary was built up
for _other_ purposes, and abstraction emerged when some crucial capstone
happened to be put into place. Or... maybe you _can_ have some kind of
"partial" abstraction...?)

~~~
jacobush
I think you could have partial abstraction. People move around physical
objects which represent other things, all the time.

~~~
hyperpallium
Maybe representation is more important than grammar? e.g. representational art

The bee-dance "represents" direction and distance, but only that.

------
giardini
I have always speculated that animal tracking was the origin of human reading
and writing and that the interpretation of an animal's path is a storyline.
But I am not alone in this: the idea was put much better by the Kickapoo
tracker Famous Shoes in the Larry McMurtry novel "Streets of Laredo" (part of
the "Lonesome Dove" series):

 _" Famous Shoes was given a Bible, in lieu of the little white girl. He would
have rather had the girl but he took the Bible and he pored over it for years,
in his spare time. He had never seen tracks as strange as the tracks in his
Bible. After much study he could see that the tracks were individual, as were
the tracks of all animals. Even worms and snails made tracks that were unlike
those of other creatures."_

Famous Shoes strong desire to learn to follow the tracks in books surfaces a
number of times in McMurtry's novels.

There is no Wikipedia link for Famous Shoes, my favorite character from the
"Lonesome Dove" series.

------
mmjaa
It always amazes me how close to this sort of thing Szukalski was, with his
"Behold! The Protong!!" .. I mean, he was an artist who saw all these ancient
signs and signals as a porto-tongue throughout all human culture.

Does anyone know if Szukalski has any credence among these researchers? He is
definitely in the lunatic-fringe/crazy-guy sector - but maybe he was right
that there is a common human language throughout all ancient art?

So crazy to see his claims being investigated now and confirmed by mainstream
archeologists ..

~~~
lioeters
To save others a search: Stanisław Szukalski

"Zermatism, Szukalski's concept of world history, postulated that all human
culture derived from post-deluge Easter Island and that in all human languages
one can find traces of the original, ancient mother-tongue of mankind. In his
view, humanity was locked in an eternal struggle with the Sons of Yeti
("Yetinsyny"), the offspring of Yeti and humans, who had enslaved humanity
from time immemorial."

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanis%C5%82aw_Szukalski](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanis%C5%82aw_Szukalski)

Apparently there's a Netflix documentary (Dec 2018) about him called,
Struggle: The Life and Lost Art of Szukalski.

~~~
mmjaa
The Zermatism stuff is whack .. but the Protong stuff is great!

>Beginning in 1940, Szukalski devoted most of his time examining the mysteries
of prehistoric ancient history of mankind, the formation and shaping of
languages, faiths, customs, arts, and migration of peoples. He tried to
unravel the origin of geographical names, gods, and symbols that have survived
in various forms in various cultures. This work, called "Protong" (in Polish,
"Macimową"), continued uninterruptedly for over 40 years. He wrote a
manuscript of 42 volumes, totaling more than 25,000 pages, and including
14,000 illustrations.[3] The volumes covered a variety of issues; his pen
drawings of artifacts, which he considered "witnesses", were done to confirm
his theories.

------
Razengan
Another idea that I find fun to think about, especially for fiction: What if
those ancient humans weren't primitive creatures newly learning things, but
remnants of a civilization making do with whatever they had left?

e.g. If everyone in the future uses always-connected AR glasses and personal
AI assistants, would anyone bother to write much, "in the wild"?

Someone discovering a cool sightseeing/hiding spot may Instagram a few photos,
saying "follow the arrows.", and we kind of already do that with geocaching
etc. [0]

In the farther future, someone may only find the crudely-etched arrows, with
no reason to assume that anything like the internet existed back now. :)

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geocaching](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geocaching)

------
gpvos
Earlier discussion:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18227517](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18227517)

------
dang
Url changed from [https://kottke.org/19/03/stone-age-cave-symbols-may-all-
be-p...](https://kottke.org/19/03/stone-age-cave-symbols-may-all-be-part-of-a-
single-prehistoric-proto-writing-system), which points to this.

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titanix2
> It is worth noting that many of the earlier scholars studying cave art were
> men, which may have led to gender biases in their interpretations.

It's sad we cannot have a post on an interesting topic not spoiled by the
gender war anymore. Moreover this remark is totally stupid: women are as much
likely to formulate a biased opinion than men.

~~~
jimktrains2
> Moreover this remark is totally stupid: women are as much likely to
> formulate a biased opinion than men.

Test, everyone 8s biased by their own experiences, but those biases are very
_useful_, especially when coupled with the biases of those who has a rather
different background. They allow others to see ideas they wouldn't have
thought of leading to true synergy.

That's the point being made: not that another group of researchers would have
been better, but that a diverse group would be preferred to a not diverse one.

~~~
ALittleLight
Why would diversity by sex be very important here? Wouldn't diversity by field
of study, expertise, accomplishment, etc by far more relevant?

I'd totally buy that diversity was a problem because "all the people who
looked at this were from a few schools studying the same degree, and came up
in the same academic circles and so had the same idea.". But the fact that the
people studying the issue had similar genitals seems irrelevant.

~~~
14
This is just a guess, but my guess is that although gender differences are not
so important in today’s world, even back as early as the 80s I as a child saw
gender roles in my parents. Dad went to work mom stayed home. Go farther back
and those things become stronger yet I believe. I think gender had a much
stronger influence on ones mindset then it does today. Now people are okay
when other gender identify as the opposite sex. Back then I have no doubt
there would have been gender biases.

~~~
thraway-burnout
> Now regressive left activists are okay when other gender identify as the
> opposite sex.

FTFY. Coming from a progressive socialist who doesn't like to stick his head
in the sand

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bookofjoe
New Scientist website may be the worst I've ever seen. Unreadable.

~~~
klyrs
I read almost everything through outline.com these days.

~~~
bookofjoe
I love Outline too.

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mattnewport
Interesting to see the hashtag was already around in the stone age.

