
Forever 21, Which Helped Popularize Fast Fashion, to File for Bankruptcy - SREinSF
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/29/business/forever-21-bankruptcy.html
======
proverbialbunny
Back in '08-'09 Forever 21 was my favorite clothing store. They had styles
there that fit well, looked good, used comfortable fabric, and was relatively
cheap. Given how the economy was doing at the time, it gave Forever 21 an
advantage: clothes 2-3x cheaper and clothes quite a bit more enjoyable to
wear.

But the fabric they used disintegrated on me, as woman's clothes tend to. (Men
get thicker fabric, but at the expense of being less stretchy. Women like to
show off their curves.) The problem with this being that no one else made the
styles I enjoyed. It was a fad that came and went. It doesn't exist in thrift
stores. I don't even know what to call it, so I can't find pictures in an
image.google search. Forever 21 made products I liked, but then they switched
and I (and my friends) couldn't find anything that came close since. The last
time I bought clothes at Forever 21 was in 2010.

Since then H&M has caught on like wildfire taking over the market Forever 21
once had. They do a lot of the same, but their clothes are even cheaper (why?)
and in my current wardrobe my favorite clothes have come from H&M. I'm afraid
the same fate will come to H&M that has come to Forever 21. Or maybe H&M will
learn from F21's mistakes. Only time will tell.

~~~
atoav
My girlfriend worked as a weaving technician and she said the H&M stuff got
much worse over the past decade and subjectively it is true. The stuff
literally disintegrates if you have it in the drier to often. Sadly enough
this is also true for the men’s wear.

I certainly try to spend a little more and get quality stuff. Second hand
stores can also be great because you can find great quality stuff that feels
better after the 20th wash than the H&M stuff feels fresh out of the store.

~~~
Robelius
I have similar experiences with H&M, and a lot of other cheap basically
colored shirts. It’ll feel great at first. Then I’ll leave it in the dryer for
a few minutes too long, and the fit completely changes while the material
looks degraded.

I’m more than happy to spend $30+ on a simple shirt that won’t change its fit
after a few cleanings, but struggle to find a consistent brand.

If anyone has recommendations, please let me know.

~~~
dashundchen
> I have similar experiences with H&M, and a lot of other cheap basically
> colored shirts. It’ll feel great at first. Then I’ll leave it in the dryer
> for a few minutes too long, and the fit completely changes while the
> material looks degraded.

Hang dry and use a lower spin speed in the wash. It takes a little more
planning and time, but I hang dry almost all my clothes and I have t-shirts
from H&M type store that are 8 years old and still holding up. Some higher
quality clothes brands are even older and look pretty much brand new.

I can get clothing to last until the fabric actually wears out - elbows in
dress shirts, knees in pants etc and even after that you can sometimes convert
them to shorts with a little sewing.

------
dehrmann
> Mr. Chang, the company’s chief executive, said in a 2012 interview that the
> chain was named Forever 21 because it targeted 20-somethings and because
> “old people wanted to be 21 again, and young people wanted to be 21
> forever.”

I like how he felt like he needed to explain that one.

~~~
qubex
The funny thing is that the statement is not true, the first store was called
“Fashion 21” and they renamed themselves when they started opening other
stores.

~~~
Wowfunhappy
That doesn't necessarily invalidate the statement, they presumably put a great
deal of thought into their new name.

If their first store was called "Fashion 75", do you think they would have
chosen "Forever 75" as their new name?

------
xivzgrev
Here’s some info on potential reasons why they are going bankrupt.

-they are mall centric store and mall traffic has been declining. Other chains have been “right sizing”

-big discount stores (target, Walmart, TJ Maxx, etc) have upped their (discounted) fashion game

-forever 21 was slow to adjust to these broader trends vs competitors

I also agree with proverbialbunny. My girlfriend used to go there regularly
but we haven’t been to one for ages. Could just be us getting older though :)

[https://www.google.com/amp/s/finance.yahoo.com/amphtml/news/...](https://www.google.com/amp/s/finance.yahoo.com/amphtml/news/why-
forever-21-will-probably-go-bankrupt-and-disappear-165236255.html)

~~~
colmvp
Overall mall traffic might be declining but I’ve been to malls here in my city
where the higher end malls are thriving and more popular than in previous
decades.

The Forever 21’s in my area are located in malls that are dated, and ripe for
a major renovation.

~~~
proverbialbunny
That's a really good point. I can understand why other stories have been dying
to wanting quality merchandise. Victoria Secret is going out of business, but
True (an online only company as far as I know) is amazing. I'm in love with
their products. Victoria Secret I never cared for.

------
noodlesUK
I’ve seen a lot of people going on about fast fashion recently. I’m aware of
lots of shops that are considered fast fashion, but which ones _aren’t_? Where
should I be going to buy more durable clothes that are made of nicer
materials? I’m genuinely curious. I’d like to change my buying patterns (I’m
really not that fashion conscious, so long as I can have some nice button ups
and trousers I’ll be happy).

~~~
dcchambers
Here's a couple I like that aren't over-the-top expensive or bespoke:

    
    
      - LL Bean
      - Patagonia
      - Everlane
      - Lands End
    

My general rule of thumb: Try to stick to natural fabrics (cotton, wool,
linen) for most things. Synthetics can be good but most are _really_ cheap.

If you're willing to pay a little more, there are some small shops still
making stuff in America that you can feel good buying and will last a lot
longer than your typical fast-fashion goods.

~~~
BlameKaneda
I was looking for an excellent fleece to fit my needs, but I didn't want to
spend big $$. I wasn't having any luck, so on a whim I splurged (a bit) and
bought a fleece from one of the names listed above.

\- I bought it from an outlet store so despite its high price it was still
discounted

\- It's incredibly well-made

\- The "cut" of it is great, as in it fits my form really well

\- Its pockets are deep

\- It's warm

Zero regrets. It's absolutely one of my favorite clothing items and hopefully
something I'll maintain for a long time.

~~~
shantly
> \- The "cut" of it is great, as in it fits my form really well

I find it odd how much better off-the-rack fit tends to be on more expensive
clothes (for men, anyway). You'd think that'd be one thing the cheaper brands
could easily duplicate, and that the main differences would be fabric quality
& construction, but no.

~~~
dragonwriter
> I find it odd how much better off-the-rack fit tends to be on more expensive
> clothes (for men, anyway). You'd think that'd be one thing the cheaper
> brands could easily duplicate

Cheaper bands target a wider range of body types per SKU, which naturally
produces worse fit on average.

------
Mathnerd314
The only other substantial discussions on HN:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7861442](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7861442)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8971215](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8971215)

I guess "fast fashion" means cheap sweatshop clothes. The bankruptcy is
probably caused as much by rising standards of living in other countries as it
is by the general shift to online ordering.

~~~
kalleboo
If that was the issue, it would be affecting Zara, H&M, Uniqlo etc as well.
Zara is seeing record profits, H&Ms revenues are up but profits are down as
they spent their money investing in online sales, Uniqlo profits are also up

~~~
achow
This is addressed in the article:

 _Mark A. Cohen, the director of retail studies at Columbia Business School,
said that he believed fast fashion was as popular as ever, pointing to the
success of Zara, but that Forever 21 had expanded far too quickly “without
regard to a reasonable outlook. It’s a self-inflicted catastrophe”_

~~~
Angostura
I would _hope_ that the reason for failure was more about this:

> Forever 21’s struggles have provoked questions around the appeal of fast
> fashion more broadly. The industry has faced backlash surrounding the
> environmental impact of quickly disposable clothes and concerns about worker
> safety

...

> Younger shoppers have increasingly turned to consigned goods and brands that
> claim sustainability as a value...

But I wouldn’t bet big money on it.

~~~
HunOL
> goods and brands that claim sustainability as a value... Claiming
> sustainability and being sustainable are two different things. For instance
> "C&A" is making a lot of things from "Bio Cotton", but you if search for Bio
> Cotton on their website
> [https://www.c-and-a.com/uk/en/corporate/company/sustainabili...](https://www.c-and-a.com/uk/en/corporate/company/sustainability/bio-
> cotton/) you find this:

"BIO COTTON is all of that. It guarantees you that no genetically modified
seeds are used, it supports farmers, saves the environment and feels good for
you and your loved ones."

Maybe I am biased (I am not opposed to GMO), but I have doubts that this is
the best way to be environment friendly.

~~~
ehnto
All cotton is bio cotton, isn't it? It's not the sustainability or GMO status
of cotton that concerns me about fast fashion but the plastic fibres flaking
away into the general environment.

I think that we have no choice but to seek sustainability from farming, as
plastic is not sustainable from any angle. The alternatives to petroleum
plastics are organic, so farming again.

------
GrayTextIsTruth
how much do cheap plastic clothes (polyester, spandex, elastic) contribute to
the micro-plastics epidemic I saw on HN recently?

I've been trying to get 100% natural materials (cotton, wool, leather) and
they seem more comfortable, less stuffy (especially for sleeping) but that
might be a placebo.

~~~
coldtea
> _I 've been trying to get 100% natural materials (cotton, wool, leather) and
> they seem more comfortable, less stuffy (especially for sleeping) but that
> might be a placebo._

Natural materials are obviously more comfortable, more breathable,
hypoallergenic, etc. These fabrics are literally the product of millions of
years of evolution for putting on top of an animal's skin, and work well with
its physiology.

~~~
bloak
Lots of people are allergic to wool. Perhaps as much as a quarter to a half of
the population will have a mild allergic reaction if they have ordinary coarse
wool rubbing against their skin for a long time, like wearing a woollen collar
or scarf while trudging through the snow all day. Some people can recognise
whether fabric contains wool just by touching it with their fingertips: an
immediate itching sensation. So perhaps it evolved for use by sheep, not
humans?

~~~
mgbmtl
What about merino wool? It is said to be much less of an issue with allergies,
and we see it everywhere these days.

~~~
poooogles
Wool makes me itchy (I still wear it just not against my skin) but cashmere
and merino don't have the same effect.

------
neonate
[http://archive.is/gcj3w](http://archive.is/gcj3w)

------
firefoxd
While fashionnova is booming.

To give you an idea how fast FN is, they'll sell then make a product (in that
order) so fast that when the customer gets it in the mail, the paint hasn't
dried yet.

Quality is not their forte.

~~~
adrr
That doesn’t make sense to me and I work in the fashion industry. Unless you
want to pay tens of thousands to air freight goods, min time is at least two
weeks.

------
kart23
Good. The only fast fashion brand I truly like is uniqlo, but forever 21 was
always at the bottom of my list. All of their clothing had prints that looked
like it came out of a machine learning algo that wasn't trained properly. I
dont understand how they afforded to open these giant stores in the hottest
malls. A fun game that I played with friends is to go into f21, try on clothes
and see who can assemble the most absurd outfit.

~~~
Dude2029
Uniqlo is not fast fashion, apart from T-shirt prints they have same styles
every year.

~~~
2rsf
My wife calls Uniqlo a functional fashion store, nice things but built to be
used and possibly last longer- if not because of quality then because of the
lack of here and now feeling.

------
mosselman
Fast fashion is a huge burden on the environment and should not be supported.
So good riddance.

------
benbristow
My ex took me there in Tokyo when I visited Japan. Shiny shops and good
background music but crap for men's clothes. 3 floors of women's clothes and a
tiny corner for men's. Not great.

~~~
kennywinker
One thing they DID have is a great selection for larger women. While most
stores cater to the skinny+young (see brandy melville's "one-size-fits-all"
policy), many forever 21 locations had a large plus size section that I know
was appreciated by many women.

------
kyriakos
Fast fashion doesn't need to be bad quality fashion.

~~~
andrewksl
I think the quality is a side effect of the real problem with fast fashion:
Implied disposability.

~~~
indecisive_user
The entire fashion industry is about disposability. Forever 21 simply fulfills
it at a low price.

If everyone tried to keep up with the latest trends we'd be throwing out
nearly our entire wardrobe every year.

------
thorwasdfasdf
I'm a little surprised by this. Forever 21, I thought was the fashionable
dollar store equivalent for clothing. It should've done much better than other
higher end brands, considering how millenials are spending less and less on
clothing.

Also, how are people wearing out their clothes so quickly. I bought a super
cheap shirt from forever 21 once and it lasted for years with no sign of wear.

------
antarcticablue
Forever 21's app is really bad, it just couldn't compete with other brands
like zara and uniqlo.

~~~
romanovcode
App, really? I really don't think a mobile app is at play here at all.

------
aitchnyu
Why does this deserve front page? I read the article expecting customers got
woke and are demanding ecofriendly and labourer-friendly clothing. Seems all
about bad business decisions, and other fast fashion companies will soon fill
that vacuum.

