
Britain is the most corrupt country in the world? - bootload
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/when-a-mafia-expert-tells-us-britain-is-the-most-corrupt-country-in-the-world-its-time-to-start-a7057686.html
======
cstross
The inadmissible truth about corruption in the UK is that it's endemic. And
not just money laundering; the very way governments (both Labour,
Conservative, and Coalition) have pursued the business of privatization of
state assets since 1979 is uniquely corrupt, on a massive scale.

Hint: corruption isn't just about simple bribery and envelopes full of
banknotes passing hand. Ask yourself why so many cabinet ministers retire and
end up on the boards of large conglomerates that specialise in bidding for
government outsourcing contracts, or why so many long-term viable agencies of
government (the Post Office, the Land Registry, the National Air Traffic
Control System, the NHS ...) find themselves in need of privatization in the
name of "efficiency". You can make any agency -- however potentially
profitable -- fail if you run it into the ground through deliberate
mismanagement, then show a rebound improvement when you sell it (or the
service it provides) off to your golf-course cronies. And when you roll up to
the banquet later, there's no evidential chain that can prove beyond
reasonable doubt that what you did was grand theft.

~~~
mootothemax
>Hint: corruption isn't just about simple bribery and envelopes full of
banknotes passing hand.

While I agree with you, I find the bare-faced cheek of publicly-advertised
"donor clubs" that promise access to the Prime Minister for a mere £50k/year
absolutely sickening:

[https://www.conservatives.com/donate/Donor-
Clubs](https://www.conservatives.com/donate/Donor-Clubs)

~~~
blowski
Blimey, that's a fascinating link to be so public and explicit. They boast
about not being funded by Trade Unions, and then invite big business to donate
£50K so they can have lunch with the PM to "defeat the rise of socialism".

~~~
Bootvis
What's even more amazing, the text right under that header:

> Labour has said that they would turn their backs on our nuclear deterrent,
> abolish our armed forces and has openly sympathised with terrorist groups
> who seek to destroy our way of life. Their policies for the continued
> economic recovery of our great nation should make alarm bells ring.

> Labour are steadily building an army of far left-wing supporters and we
> should ignore this at our peril.

What the actual? These people are bats.

~~~
arethuza
That page is truly bizarre - I hadn't managed to read all of it before (due to
blood pressure issues) but now that I read the rest of it I'm actually quite
amused.

Do you think they are planning a 70's style coup?

[NB I'm probably already on a watch list after paying for a book with a debit
card (duh!) in a Sinn Féin shop in Belfast)]

------
felipeerias
The UK is the second country with the most intermediaries (banks, accountants,
lawyers…) listed in the Panama papers. The first one is Hong Kong, a former
British colony.

"More than half of the companies listed in the leaked Mossack Fonseca
documents are registered in the U.K. or its overseas territories [...] If we
want to understand modern Britain, we first need to realize that our primary
economic function in the world today is probably our network of tax havens."

[http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/04/04/britains-empire-of-
tax-e...](http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/04/04/britains-empire-of-tax-evasion-
panama-papers-mossack-fonseca/)

~~~
fennecfoxen
Tax havens, hmm?

So around the world, basically, the good _honest_ career politicians from
Argentina to Zambia are going around to profitable businesses saying "hey,
nice business you have there! We'd like to take, say, 50% of your profits, if
you don't mind, and spend it on our friends - government contractors, public-
sector unions and the like. All the donations to our campaign afterward are
purely incidental, I assure you, and none of the subsidies or handouts we'll
use your money for are vote-buying schemes, none at all. Thanks for your
cooperation."

... and the UK provides places where they don't do that, not on the top-line
profit anyway. Sure. I can see how having that would be attractive to both
legitimate and illegitimate operators. Its net impact on corruption, though,
would be a little tricky to sort out.

(Postscript. As I'm being moderated down without comment, I assume that those
doing so are those privileged enough to be in a nice low-corruption Western
economy where we have a slightly better grade of politician than, say, Dilma
Rousseff and her legislature. So I wish to note that despite cynicism about
world governments I retain due respect for anti-corporate sentiment as
well...)

~~~
edko
I don't know about Zambia, but in Argentina most people don't care too much
about campaign contributions. The perception is that most of the corruption
there is through cronyism, and kickbacks from outrageously overpriced goods
and services bought by the State. It is not politicians robbing businesses,
but politicians and some businesses robbing the tax money of, mainly, the
middle class.

~~~
mancerayder
The thing about campaign contributions is that it's all about the exchange: in
return, the contributors get a say in government policy, enforcement,
decisions. It undermines democracy. Is it better, or worse, than naked
cronyism and kickbacks in the form of contracts, overpriced goods and
services, etc.?

Hard to say. Depressing to think about.

------
sievebrain
The article (and the "Mafia Expert" it's about) are both idiotic. The premise
is that because corruption involves money and money involves banks and London
has lots of banks, transitively, London is very corrupt. It then tries to
equate Mafia violence with financial firms refusing to hire 'whistleblowers',
as if having your legs chopped off is in any way comparable to having a career
issue.

By similar logic, I could claim that Washington DC is the most violent city in
the world, because the illegal drug trade is very violent and drugs are
illegal because of politicians and there are lots of politicians in Washington
DC.

~~~
vintermann
If you hold a position of trust (elected politician, policeman, bureaucrat,
CEO, board member, employee representative, union boss), and you use the
powers of that position to further some private interest rather than the
interests of those you are set to serve, then you're corrupt. That's more or
less Transparency International's definition, and I agree with it.

But banks' trustees aren't the public. It's their depositors, shareholders and
customers. And by most accounts, they serve those reasonably well.

So yeah, they could maybe make a case that Britain is the most _corrupting_
country in the world. But that is not the same thing. Compared to other
nations, Britain's public trustees probably aren't so bad at serving the
interests of the public.

~~~
touristtam
> Compared to other nations, Britain's public trustees probably aren't so bad
> at serving the interests of the public.

Dave & Co have probably been the worst offenders in recent recent years for
selling public assets and companies they have nationalized to buddies of
theirs at massively discounted prices, beginning with the RBS.

~~~
easytiger
> nationalized to buddies of theirs at massively discounted prices, beginning
> with the RBS.

What? I guess you have much evidence.

~~~
pjc50
Sold at a huge loss, certainly:
[http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/rbs-share-
sa...](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/rbs-share-sale-to-cost-
taxpayers-22bn-obr-budget-analysis-shows-a6944146.html)

~~~
easytiger
How does that indicate corruption?

------
axtheter
From George Bernard Shaw's "The Man Of Destiny":

No, because the English are a race apart. No Englishman is too low to have
scruples: no Englishman is high enough to be free from their tyranny. But
every Englishman is born with a certain miraculous power that makes him master
of the world. When he wants a thing, he never tells himself that he wants it.
He waits patiently until there comes into his mind, no one knows how, a
burning conviction that it is his moral and religious duty to conquer those
who have got the thing he wants. Then he becomes irresistible.

Like the aristocrat, he does what pleases him and grabs what he wants: like
the shopkeeper, he pursues his purpose with the industry and steadfastness
that come from strong religious conviction and deep sense of moral
responsibility. He is never at a loss for an effective moral attitude. As the
great champion of freedom and national independence, he conquers and annexes
half the world, and calls it Colonization. When he wants a new market for his
adulterated Manchester goods, he sends a missionary to teach the natives the
gospel of peace. The natives kill the missionary: he flies to arms in defence
of Christianity; fights for it; conquers for it; and takes the market as a
reward from heaven.

In defence of his island shores, he puts a chaplain on board his ship; nails a
flag with a cross on it to his top-gallant mast; and sails to the ends of the
earth, sinking, burning and destroying all who dispute the empire of the seas
with him. He boasts that a slave is free the moment his foot touches British
soil; and he sells the children of his poor at six years of age to work under
the lash in his factories for sixteen hours a day. He makes two revolutions,
and then declares war on our one in the name of law and order.

There is nothing so bad or so good that you will not find Englishmen doing it;
but you will never find an Englishman in the wrong. He does everything on
principle. He fights you on patriotic principles; he robs you on business
principles; he enslaves you on imperial principles; he bullies you on manly
principles; he supports his king on loyal principles, and cuts off his king's
head on republican principles. His watchword is always duty; and he never
forgets that the nation which lets its duty get on the opposite side to its
interest is lost.

~~~
to3m
<sheds single patriotic tear>

They should set this to music. Fuck Jerusalem.

------
pete_b
So the most ruthless mafia operate among international organizations, but from
London, thus making Britain the most corrupt country in the world? Perhaps
they never leave London, not old enough to travel alone, or they don't know
how to use the internet.

There's nothing new under the sun, just the sensationalist Bremain propaganda
you'd expect a few weeks before an EU referendum.

------
rwoodley
So much hand-wringing. Anyone who thinks Britain is corrupt has never been to
a corrupt country. I lived in Britain 5 years and never had to pay a bribe,
ever. In some countries bribes are required to even clear customs. Then
driving in from the airport, the police stop you at road-blocks and demand
bribes. And so on.

~~~
GordonS
Corruption occurs at different levels, and in differing degrees of visibility.

------
wutbrodo
If true (and I have my doubts), this is particularly funny in view of the
British PM's recent comments accidentally caught on mic in which he called out
the most corrupt countries in the world by name.

------
marvel_boy
Spain, not UK, is by far the most corrupt country in Europe. High rank spanish
politicians are involved in the Panama Papers.

~~~
gonvaled
Also british - Cameron's father (and probably Cameron, caught lying), non the
less.

EDIT

Why the downvotes?

Factually incorrect? Don't think so:
[http://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/apr/07/david-cameron-
ad...](http://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/apr/07/david-cameron-admits-he-
profited-fathers-offshore-fund-panama-papers)

You don't like it. Fine, but don't downvote it.

~~~
xioxox
He ran a fund which was based in tax haven to avoid double taxation. Lots of
funds do things like this. It's not corruption or criminal.

~~~
spoonie
I listened to a MoneyBox radio programme about this. The "financial expert"
said that it was effectively a tax-deferral program, just like a pension plan.
Any gains inside the fund were tax free until the money was brought back into
the UK. It may seem unfair at face value, but any UK citizen can defer taxes
on up to 100% of their annual income in a registered pension plan[0]. So, IMO,
the fairness would depend on what investors can do with the offshore fund that
regular people can't do with their pension plans?

0 - [https://www.gov.uk/tax-on-your-private-pension/pension-
tax-r...](https://www.gov.uk/tax-on-your-private-pension/pension-tax-relief)

------
jackgavigan
Ironically, when I read this article, there was a banner advert for a company
that helps people get MBEs, OBEs and Knighthoods:
[https://pic.twitter.com/UsTf892sr6](https://pic.twitter.com/UsTf892sr6)

------
wintermute306
The depressing thing about this is that us UK lefties have screaming about
this years and years. I know a man who works in politics that is convinced
that the Tory party is not privatising the NHS because they Tory party put
elections above all else.

------
joe563323
Clearly the author has not taken account of india. India is the most corrupt
country. You can not get done anything with out paying bribe in government
offices.

------
gear54rus
'Mafia expert', isn't that an interesting job title.

------
cm2187
A very heavy article on insinuations, very light on facts.

------
diego_moita
I read Saviano's book. It is enjoyable but it should be said that his
intention is purely drama, not rigorous, deep and comprehensive information.

The same can be said about this accusation since he doesn't provide evidence,
just moral outrage. How do you measure corruption? How do you know that there
is more crime-originated money in Jersey than in Moscou, Lagos or Caracas?

------
rmmfree
I would confirm that it's my country, Spain. But you can't know it if you just
read our main press, because they fake the reality. Our politicians, their
relatives, their companies and their mass-media have stolen thousands of
million of euros, and nothing happens. Nobody goes to jail, except the people
who claims agains it.

------
gonvaled
I would say let the UK leave the EU and let's ban financial transactions with
the British-run network of global tax havens.

------
njloof
Why do we not have the tools for tracing money the way we do for phone calls
or data packets? We can argue about how governments should choose to use this
data to prosecute crimes, but it seems mad that banks do not have to know
where money comes from.

~~~
mfukar
I don't know, njloof. Why don't banks track cash deposits? Should we track
cash deposits? Why do we track phone calls and IP traffic? Should we track
phone calls and IP traffic?

------
IgorPartola
FWIW, a friend of mine once defined the corruption level of the country by the
smallest size of a bribe you would have to pay someone. The lower the number,
the more corrupt the country. Obviously not the best measure, but certainly
practical.

~~~
njloof
I like this definition, but another way of looking at it is that in more
corrupt countries, the middle and lower classes have access to the bribery
economy that exists regardless.

------
known
Higher social class are unethical
[http://www.pnas.org/cgi/doi/10.1073/pnas.1118373109](http://www.pnas.org/cgi/doi/10.1073/pnas.1118373109)

------
landryraccoon
I'm surprised nobody cares to define corruption. Given that the very topic at
hand is measuring corruption, wouldn't the obvious starting point be a
definition of corruption that is measurable?

------
known
Simple solution: Expel
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominant_minority](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominant_minority)
from your country

------
id122015
Greed doesnt care which people are active 24 hours a day to acquire money, or
about the perfectly fit lazy people who live off social benefits.

------
sklogic
It is indeed. Just take a look at the thoroughly corrupt and secretive process
of awarding a train franchise.

------
sbardle
Britain is not London.

~~~
wintermute306
When it comes to finance it is.

------
known
And India is the most racist country in the world
[http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15...](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-
map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/)

------
vemv
It would be interesting if someone can reinforce this statement from a
developer perspective.

~~~
pjc50
What do you mean by a developer perspective?

The corruption described is almost entirely contained within the area of high
finance; it's not a very corrupt country from the perspective of the average
John Bull. It is however quite deferential, which means that power and
prestige let you get away with things.

~~~
varjag
Have to add that in _truly_ corrupt societies the degree of power circles
corruption is not any lower. It just looks less appalling from corrupt
baseline.

