
Very tense atmosphere at a Google Bus stop in San Francisco - codegeek
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101415989
======
fennecfoxen
> "Are they too delicate to take public transportation?"

No. The public transit agency is just not competent to provide effective
public transportation -- not from Noe Valley to Mountain View, anyway. The
equivalent technology worker in New York has access to an effective subway
system and takes it as a matter of routine.

That's not too hard to understand, is it? :P

(Though I should note, lest I call the MTA competent, that much of that system
was privately-built and inherited by the city when it got crushed by a fluke
of changing US monetary policy :P)

~~~
Aloisius
_> The equivalent technology worker in New York has access to an effective
subway system and takes it as a matter of routine._

A lot of technology workers in New York traveling 50 miles to work by subway?
I'm just asking because that's about the distance from Trenton NJ to
Manhattan.

Many people would rightly consider that to be a little outrageous and would
maybe consider moving closer to their work instead of treating their city like
a suburb they like to hang out at on the weekends.

Edit: It is actually about 35 miles from 18th/Dolores to Google HQ, not 50.
That's more like commuting from Brooklyn to New Brunswick.

~~~
ameister14
Lots of workers travel from Croton on Hudson or Long Island by train into
Manhattan and take the subway from there; all of that is public transportation
or at least publicly subsidized.

~~~
Aloisius
Caltrain from SF to MV is significantly faster than taking public transit from
Long Island or Croton on Hudson to Manhattan.

------
lmg643
It's crazy to me that buses have become the flashpoint of controversy about
silicon valley companies, enough to drive protestors in the street. i guess
it's really true when they say all politics are local.

i don't live with these buses around every day, but at least they are on a bus
and not creating traffic jams with cars. pretty thoughtful that they are
taking buses in that respect - downright neighborly.

in terms of tech industry issues that affect the national and/or local
community, i guess people have a hard time caring about more abstract issues
like tax evasion or immigration.

taxes pay for various public services, whether national or local. one can
argue about the details of which governments would get what funds, but the
offshore cash balances are largely "dead" money waiting for a tax holiday, and
not going to be meaningfully reinvested.

if we drop the white collar aspect of immigration reform, the "comprehensive"
changes the tech industry is advocating will increase the quantity of semi and
unskilled labor, further contributing to pressure on the lower half of the
income scale. but by all means - let's get rid of those buses.

~~~
XorNot
The revolution in Egypt has flashed up over a number of issues (i.e. the
building of a mall).

This is what public discontent looks like when you have entrenched social
problems and don't try and fix them. It _will_ get worse if you don't take
meaningful action that helps the lower and middle class.

~~~
wpietri
Yeah. I'm sure if corporate executives were to come down to a streetcorner and
frankly explain their activities and views, people would be happy to protest
_them_ instead of the buses. But they stay ensconced in their corporate office
parks, which the hoi polloi can't even reach via public transit. And where
even if they did, corporate security would keep the executives from any
uncomfortable frankness.

------
tikhonj
> _" Are they too delicate to take public transportation? I take public
> transportation all the time. I've lived here 50 years. I've taken public
> transit for maybe 45 of those 50 years. I've turned out just fine." _

This is just as applicable to people with cars. Like, you know, almost
everyone, including the poor. What in the world is wrong with not taking
public transportation? It somehow makes you arrogant, conceited and evil?
Seems like a futile attack on people at tech companies, all for the wrong
reasons.

It's always disappointing when politics becomes about demonizing the other
side. But not unexpected.

It goes on:

> _Robles said the protests that he and his group are involved with aren 't
> about the buses but about unaffordable rents and the wave of evictions of
> seniors and the disabled._

Well, that doesn't match his earlier quote! Evictions and unaffordable rents
are one thing. Attacking people just because they're better-off and—the
horror!—going to work without talking to their neighbors ( _" They don't want
to talk, just to get on their bus and head to work."_) is quite another. This
attitude blows through the understandable and into the viciously anti-
individualistic.

Seriously: evictions are one thing. But everybody deserves to be able to live
and work in peace, without having to bow to the "community"! You should be
under no obligation, social or otherwise, to enjoy the same things as your
neighbors or even talk to them. And yet this is one of the main complaints I
hear about techies. It's an absurd position and, doubtless, a double standard:
it's not like many of the people they're trying to protect—ones who actually
deserve some protection, at that—are all that much more social themselves.

~~~
smacktoward
_> This is just as applicable to people with cars._

Something you buy with your own money doesn't shout "privilege" as loudly as
something you're given for free. If Google was handing out cars to their
employees, the comparison would be more apt.

 _> Like, you know, almost everyone, including the poor._

Lots of people who live in cities don't have cars, including many of the not-
poor. Many (most?) of these people use public transit. Having access to a
robust public transit system is generally seen as one of the benefits of
living in a dense urban area.

 _> What in the world is wrong with not taking public transportation? It
somehow makes you arrogant, conceited and evil?_

No, it makes you look like you're isolated in a cushion of comfort
specifically designed to protect you from having to deal with your neighbors.
That's not _evil,_ but it's also not the best way to make friends and
otherwise seem engaged and non-aloof.

~~~
res0nat0r
> No, it makes you look like you're isolated in a cushion of comfort
> specifically designed to protect you from having to deal with your
> neighbors. That's not evil, but it's also not the best way to make friends
> and otherwise seem engaged and non-aloof.

Ridesharing on a bus with other people is now considered to be aloof? I must
have missed the memo.

~~~
protomyth
Ridesharing on a bus that is only available to the blessed employees of a rich
tech company using publicly funded stops can be presented as very aloof.

Stats and logic are poor defenses against symbols, demonization, and rhetoric
in politics.

~~~
owenjones
Google and Apple are paying for the stops now.

~~~
res0nat0r
Since the Google hate on HN is strong now days (since they have lots of
money), shouldn't we be happy they are providing a bus service?

These employees might drive to work (worse for the environment) if this bus
service was not provided since public transportation might not service where
they live.

~~~
protomyth
Providing the bus service is a sensible and logical idea. It has many
benefits.

It on the other hand provides a tangible, accessible symbol to demonization
and attack with rhetoric.

Don't like it? Then you might think a bit when a news network or a comedy show
starts hammering a group.

[edit] I should add I don't agree with the protestor's plan of action or
targets, I'm just trying to explain why and how effective their targeting is.
Its a long tradition and very easy for the public to buy into.

------
dopamean
I've read a bunch about this situation and I still cant for the life of me
understand why so many people are stressed out about people getting together
and taking a bus to work.

~~~
ekianjo
Basically it's the principle of terrorism applied to buses. They are using it
as a tool to advance a political agenda. Make the daily life of users
unbearable so that it changes things. Needless to say, this kind of action
should be outlawed.

~~~
smacktoward
You throw out that word "terrorism" awfully casually. You might want to talk
to some people who have actually survived real acts of terrorism, which are
_very different_ than having to deal with some picketers on your way to work.

~~~
ekianjo
Yeah, but that's exactly what it is - it's just that they are putting people's
life at danger yet, but their actions are to put stress and nervousness on
users, which is very much the same goal as terrorism. Terrorism is not just
about putting bombs on the streets, when you get death/serious threats in your
mailbox it's also terrorism.

~~~
wpietri
You have a right not to be blown up. You have a right not to be threatened.

You _do not_ have a right to remain free of uncomfortable feelings that come
when people tell you what they think of your views and actions. Protest is a
vital part of democracy.

~~~
ekianjo
> You have a right not to be threatened.

Didn't one of these protesters put up a webpage not too long ago, specifically
targeting a Google Employee and showing up his house and where he lives, and
using very strong language against him just because he's earning more than
them and using the Google bus in their neighborhood ? If that's not a threat,
I don't know what is.

> Protest is a vital part of democracy.

Blocking buses which are allowed to freely run on public streets is not a
reasonable form of protest. The transportees are using these buses to go to
work, their work is taxed and the taxes go back in one way or another to the
community. They should be allowed to use them as freely as they can use their
car. Unless you have a strange conception of Freedom.

~~~
wpietri
A threat is where you say something threatening. So no, you don't know what
one is.

Civil disobedience is a time-honored protest tradition. Your "if it makes
money it's good" is one theory of community, but not the only possible one.

------
wes-exp
As Marc Andreessen recently noted,

“They are attacking the demand for housing [whereas the discussion should be]
around the supply of housing,” Andreessen said. “Market forces want the Valley
to expand; if our politicians show leadership, we have decades of growth ahead
of us.”

~~~
fidotron
I've always had the suspicion that in SV proper no one, and I mean no one,
wants any more people near them, as it would destroy the place utterly. Yes,
it's sprawl, but at least there's some greenery remaining. If the entire
peninsula urbanised it would destroy the quality of life for many in the upper
levels of SV. They're all NIMBYs, and to some degree justifiably.

The other problem is who wants to live somewhere where so many people are
technologists? There's a bad enough bubble around the place already, this
would just make it worse. On top of the growing mass of lonely single dudes.

~~~
kqr2
But how does one determine the right amount of development? When is a place
"destroyed"?

Keep in mind that Silicon Valley was once a bunch of orchards. One could have
argued that we shouldn't have built any industry here and kept it "pristine".

But wait, even the orchards are man-made. Maybe things were better before
agriculture...

NIMBYs are just picking one point in time and declaring it "optimal".

------
Aloisius
According to this article, Dolores and 18th is Noe Valley and the Tenderloin
is a few blocks away. That's the kind of crack reporting that makes me think
this article is worth sharing.

~~~
steveklabnik
To be fair, Twitter's geolocation says it's the Castro...

~~~
Aloisius
Good golly. And tech workers wonder why locals are angry at them. Next they'll
start labeling Oakland as East San Francisco.

------
jupiterjaz
So much of this would go away if the city would just loosen its building and
zoning regulations.

~~~
wpietri
Why pick on the city? So much of it would go away if the cities in which these
companies exist would loosen their zoning regulations. Then we could get rid
of the buses.

~~~
muzz
Which cities would that be? Mountain View? Palo Alto? Menlo Park? Cupertino?
South San Francisco? The 100+ other cities in the Bay Area?

If zoning were truly the major obstacle, we would see more building where
there is the least amount of zoning.

------
delackner
Rarely have I seen a single article that more concisely summed up the total
failure of the media to inform the public. The real story is the colossal
decades-long failure of California state and city governments AND CITIZENS to
produce a coherent policy for housing and transportation. There is a long and
very deep story there, but you won't read much about it because it is complex.

------
tedsuo
Guys, the buses have nothing to do with it. People are angry because rents and
evictions are through the roof, and many people are really feeling it. SV
hasn't been shy about taking credit for the situation. The buses are just an
obvious target.

------
malandrew

        "The buses really are emblematic of this class, this 
        privilege that people have," Robles said. "Are they too 
        delicate to take public transportation? I take public 
        transportation all the time. I've lived here 50 years. 
        I've taken public transit for maybe 45 of those 50 years. 
        I've turned out just fine."
    

I'm sorry, but this is MADNESS talking. What about cars!?

Seriously, Google should just print shirts for their employees that point out
the insanity of attacking anyone riding a bus over those driving cars.

Better yet, this should just print "What about the people driving cars?" right
on the side of the damn bus.

------
dengnan
This really confused me. They are complaining the high price of the rent. But
instead of protesting in front of real estate companies, landlords, or those
who rent their properties with high prices, they stopped Google buses, Apple
buses and buses whose owners sell computers, build websites, share information
across Internet. They really picked wrong targets. They can buy computers with
low prices and the price is getting lower. Remember: Apple decides the price
of laptop and/or desktop, not the price of the real estate.

~~~
wpietri
A few months back I talked with a leasing agent who was showing a property
across the street from me. When he told me the rent, I was gobsmacked. When I
asked him why it was so high, he said straight out that they jacked the rents
way up because the place was near the corporate bus stops.

That echoes what I heard when I looked for a new place 2 years ago. The buses
bring a lot of people with a lot of money to the neighborhood. Basic economics
tells you what happens then.

~~~
dengnan
I can see the problem of the imbalance of the demand-supply. But I see no
reason to blaim tech companies. It is like blaming patients when emergency
room responds slowly because of too many patients. Instead of asking patients
to leave, we should ask for more doctors or more hospitals. In this case, why
not blaming landlords for rising the price? Or asking the government to
provide more affordable housings. Stopping a tech company's bus will fix
nothing.

~~~
wpietri
Tech company buses are importing housing demand into the city. According to a
recent study, about half the people riding buses would move closer to work if
the buses didn't exist. That would be circa 10,000 people, a significant
number in San Francisco's relatively illiquid housing market.

So you're wrong. Stopping the buses would make a substantial difference.

------
billiam
There are so many inaccuracies in this article that I just stopped reading
after a while. Worthy subject, but a sad reflection of the state of
journalism.

------
thekevan
I just see this as bigotry against people at or above upper-middle class.

~~~
busterarm
As opposed to the systemic bigotry that affects the lower-class in every
aspect of their lives?

~~~
thekevan
Two wrongs

~~~
busterarm
more like "who cares?"

------
codex
"I'm a fifth generation San Franciscan" sums it up pretty well.

------
InclinedPlane
How easy it is to demonize others and erode the value of individual liberty.

The way that we react to people of wealth who act in ways we dislike is very
telling of our individual values. It's one thing to say "I don't like the
culture their creating, and I want to work to build a better culture". It's
one thing to say "I think they are taking unfair advantage due to their wealth
and influence". But it's something else entirely to say "they deserve to be
hated for who they are and how they act". It's something else to say "we
demand the authority to FORCE them to act how we want, with violence if
necessary".

It's so, so easy to vilify the wealthy. They are "privileged", they can take
it, right? They _deserve_ something to offset their privilege and wealth,
right? We've seen this script before, many times, it's not a good one, it
doesn't end well. We should know better by now.

If you can't maintain compassion for the wealthy, then you don't have
compassion. If you can't maintain compassion for people who have different
values than you then you don't have compassion. If you have a desire to use
force to make people change their behavior to something more desirable to you
then you don't value freedom.

------
crassus
It's "gentrification" when people with money move in, and "white flight" when
they move out. Chase those tech workers out and watch public tax revenue,
infrastructure, police force, and schools go down the tube.

Presumably, progressives want people making decent money to stay _exactly
where they are_ and neither come nor leave

But the real reason for the protests is that it offers a sense of belonging
and meaning in a post-religious world. God may be dead, but now we have
_social justice_

Stay safe out there guys. Lefties can be dangerous[1]

[1] [http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2013/12/20/san-
francisco-...](http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2013/12/20/san-francisco-
tech-shuttle-buses-blocked/4147335/)

~~~
dreamdu5t
_God may be dead, but now we have social justice_

Glad someone else recognizes this.

~~~
crucini
Yup. Next step is to extrapolate the saints, dogmas and heresies of the
current church.

~~~
yetanotherphd
Not only that, but the idea that the truth is too subtle and complex for the
masses, so it is better to feed them ideas known to be false by the leaders.

I always hear "educated" liberals say how crime is caused by poverty, and that
race isn't a factor after poverty is accounted for. I have read plenty of
academic topics on the paper, and liberal academics are very happy to
acknowledge that poverty cannot account for the race difference in crime
rates.

But these academics have proven their loyalty to the true faith, so they can
say these things within their own circles. Ordinary people who try to make
this same claim will be socially punished.

------
yetanotherphd
Just more leftist protection scams. Stay safe fellow nerds.

------
MyNameIsMK
Mayor Lee needs to give every SF resident a Google bus, or provide clean buses
for the people who DO NOT work a large tech companies like Google. kthxbai

