
China bans use of Windows 8 on government computers - yiedyie
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/20/us-microsoft-china-idUSBREA4J07Q20140520
======
xiaq
Chinese here, would love to share some observations:

1) It's likely that the ban on Windows 8 has nothing to do with "power-
saving". To me power-saving is just a buzzword in the title of the notice.

2) This notice is concerned with a specific round of bid. So it's not an
administrative order, but rather a requirement list for the bidders. If I
understand correctly this only applies to computers to be purchased during the
bid. I'm not sure about how large the scale of the bid is, though; it may
affect 1% of the government computer installations, or 99%. Either is possible
without further information.

3) This notice doesn't say anything about Windows 7. What this means that
bidders _are_ allowed to provide computers pre-installed with Windows 7 and
IMO this is pretty likely. Yes there are conspiracy advocates who would rather
stick with Windows XP (I have never been able to understand their
reasoning...), but I believe the computer vendors are more sensible. After all
it's they who have to provide customer service.

4) This notice is also only concerned with the pre-installed OS. It's totally
possible that the government officials may replace the OS with anything they
like (which are, unfortunately, most likely pirate copies). I don't know about
the central government, but it's common practice in local governments. The
central government has very weak executive power when it comes to such
detailed things. (Why bother enforcing such regulations after all?)

~~~
denom
Interesting, given that the US Government itself does not run windows 8 yet.

~~~
lotsofmangos
Then it follows that there must be US government procurement documents that
ban Windows 8 on government computers, as it would be part of the spec.
Perhaps someone should tell Reuters, they might have forgot in all the
excitement.

~~~
Retric
That's not how things work. US procurement is not going to leave the OS choice
up to a third party so they may require win 7 but there not going to ban win
8. If for no other reason that offline computers are 'secure' enough for
testing and the government has a lot of proprietary apps.

~~~
lotsofmangos
I suspect that whether a given government software spec includes blacklists,
whitelists or a combination of both depends largely on who wrote it. Unless
someone can show me that exclusive whitelisting is enforced US policy, I would
think there will often be documents detailing which versions of software are
not to be used on a given contract, as well as which ones are.

------
msvan
There could be a wide range of reasons for this, but I'm pretty sure a large
part of it is protectionism. The Chinese government is pretty hostile towards
foreign software in China, and they are probably displeased with China's
dependence on Windows.

When I lived was in China, I contemplated starting a business there.
Burgeoning market, and all. But I came to understand that it's a terrible
idea. If you're a foreign national that manages to successfully launch a
business in China, you are either morally corrupt, have given substantial
bribes or have connections within the government. And if you were to become
too successful, the Chinese government will make sure that you either
cooperate or become insignificant.

I can't help but think that this strategy will damage their economy in the
long run, but for now they are doing pretty well. Kudos to them for being one
of few countries that actually manage to resist the massive influence of the
US. If the PRC hadn't been protectionist, the Chinese would be using Google
and Facebook just like the rest of us.

~~~
netcan
This doesn't really make sense in this case.

Facebook & Google have chinese alternatives. The alternative to Windows 8 is
presumably some older Windows.

~~~
msvan
My point is that Facebook and Google would've been the dominant actors on the
Chinese market today, not Weibo, QQ and Baidu, if the CCP hadn't been actively
working against the US companies.

The alternative to Windows 8 is, for now, some older version of Windows XP.
But as other commenters have pointed out, the CCP is pushing for a Linux-based
alternative to Windows. There was an internal CCP document floating around on
the Internet last year discussing the Chinese government's worries about not
having a domestic OS for desktop and mobile. It'll be a tough transition to
make, but compared to forced urbanization it's a walk in the park.

~~~
xiaq
> My point is that Facebook and Google would've been the dominant actors on
> the Chinese market today, not Weibo, QQ and Baidu, if the CCP hadn't been
> actively working against the US companies.

To some degree I agree about this assertion, but you made some factual
mistakes:

* The C2C (copy to China) relationship is Twitter -> Weibo, Facebook -> Renren and Google -> Baidu.

* QQ is an IM and the western equivalents MSN, Skype etc. were never banned in China. Also, QQ gained its popularity quite some before the GFW. I believe this is the most legitimate story where a Chinese product wins _not_ due to GFW. Another such story is eBay vs. Taobao.

~~~
KaoruAoiShiho
Baidu is older than Google.

~~~
xiaq
Baidu was founded in 2000. Google in 1998.

However, Robin Li (founder of Baidu) seems to have begun his research on
search engines earlier than Google founders. Therefore in _some_ sense Baidu
is older than Google, but that's not the most obvious sense :)

This does show that Baidu is not a C2C (Copy to China) product though. I'm
happy to learn that.

------
levosmetalo
China can say whatever they want as a reason for banning, but the fact that
they don't believe a US company to provide them with an operating system that
even has a slight chance to be NSA secure feels quite sensible.

I guess in the long run we would see a Linux or *BSD sponsored by Chinese
government to be used as an official OS. It's not like they lack talent to do
it.

~~~
seren
I guess an attempt already exists in the form of Ubuntu Kylin [1], ominously
sponsored by the National University of Defense technology [2]. But I have a
hard time determining how serious the project is, and how prevalent it is in
China.

[1] [http://www.ubuntu.com/desktop/ubuntu-
kylin](http://www.ubuntu.com/desktop/ubuntu-kylin) [2]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_University_of_Defense_...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_University_of_Defense_Technology)

~~~
sandGorgon
It is quite successful apparently

 _Downloads from the Ubuntu Kylin community sites in China are continuing to
gain momentum, with over three million people downloading Ubuntu Kylin in the
first 12 months. The initial adoption of Ubuntu Kylin 14.04 LTS, launched in
April, has been phenomenal, with over one million additional new downloads._

[https://insights.ubuntu.com/2014/05/15/huge-downloads-for-
ub...](https://insights.ubuntu.com/2014/05/15/huge-downloads-for-ubuntu-
kylin-14-04lts-first-oem-partner-announced/)

~~~
ForHackernews
Just for perspective, 3 million users in China is the equivalent of about 700k
users in the US.

It's not insignificant, but neither is it like every third Chinese person is
running Kylin. Heck, even OSX has 20 million or so users in the US[0]

[0] [http://www.pcworld.com/article/2050510/windows-8-users-
now-o...](http://www.pcworld.com/article/2050510/windows-8-users-now-
outnumber-mac-addicts.html)

------
BuildTheRobots
Germany did similar 9 months ago; except they specifically state the TPM is
_not_ to be trusted [1]

[1] [http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2013-08-26/german-
gover...](http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2013-08-26/german-government-
confirms-key-entities-not-use-windows-8-tpm-20-fearing-cont)

~~~
mcintyre1994
Wow, I think I somehow missed what TPM actually does, if "The goal is Digital
Rights Management and computer security" as stated in the article that sounds
horrible. A backdoor for the USA and hardware-level DRM, great.

~~~
ds9
That's actually a contradiction. DRM and security are mutually exclusive. The
level of control that enables a remote party to "trust" a computer makes it
impossible for the owner to have a rational basis for trusting it. For
security you have to have the possibility of complete information and control
at every moment, and that is exactly what DRM is designed to exclude.

------
piokuc
I feel it may have something to do with the recent news that US charges "five
Chinese army officers with espionage charges for hacking into major US
companies": [http://nypost.com/2014/05/19/us-to-charge-chinese-
military-o...](http://nypost.com/2014/05/19/us-to-charge-chinese-military-
officials-with-cyber-spying/)

------
ntakasaki
Is Windows 7 banned too? Otherwise this doesn't make much sense regarding the
so called security reason.

EOL for Windows 7 is 2020, EOL for Windows 8 is 2023. If security is the real
issue, they should be banning Windows 7 in favor of Windows 8 (or perhaps
Windows altogether in favor of some OS that is a lesser target for malware
etc., but I don't see any hint of this).

~~~
glasslion
No. Actually any Windows 8 computer bought by Chinese government will be
downgraded to Windows 7.

~~~
ntakasaki
If that's the case then it's not about security. It's not about saving money.
It's not about dependence on MS/US software.

That makes it similar to most corporate places where Windows 7 is preferred
and Windows 8 is "banned" because of both the big UI changes in Windows 8 that
are touch and consumer oriented plus compatibility testing etc. with software.

~~~
glasslion
Microsoft open source their Windows 7's(and windows server 2008, Office 2003)
source code to the China government since June ,2010. But they have not allow
China to review their Windows 8 source code yet.

~~~
schoen
The name of this program is the "Government Security Program".

[https://www.microsoft.com/en-
us/news/press/2003/jan03/01-14g...](https://www.microsoft.com/en-
us/news/press/2003/jan03/01-14gsprelease.aspx)

I found it odd that Microsoft justified the GSP in terms of the "unique
security requirements of governments". I could also refer to the "unique
security requirements of civilians": individual bearers of human rights,
targets of espionage and surveillance by well-funded sophisticated
adversaries, typically don't have large IT budgets... and if one "unique" part
is supposed to be that Microsoft would be pressured to include a backdoor in
its products to facilitate spying on foreign governments, well, plenty of
civilians (including American civilians) fear that Microsoft would be
pressured to include a backdoor to facilitate spying on _them_.

(I would not use the term "open source" here, because Microsoft didn't make
the code open source, it just allowed particular people to read it!)

------
Thiz
A super power that doesn't have their own OS is not really a super power.

------
jeveloper
It's definitely political and its no secret. However, they should follow what
city of Munich did by systematically switching to Linux (MuLix)

[http://www.cio.co.uk/news/change-management/munich-open-
sour...](http://www.cio.co.uk/news/change-management/munich-open-source-
completed-successfully/)

------
dawkins
8 hours ago I read this and the reasons where because Windows 8 was expensive
in China, now they are talking more about security:
[http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2014-05/20/c_1333472...](http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2014-05/20/c_133347210.htm)

------
yulaow
I do not understand what they are planning. So they do not want to upgrade to
win8... are they considering win7 or they just want to keep using xp
indefinitely? There was not a plan of Ubuntu to ship a personalized os version
in china some time ago? Where it ended?

~~~
freehunter
Sounds like they're trying to force MS to continue supporting Windows XP.
Doesn't MS already do this if you pay them? If so, China is trying to force
Microsoft to continue to support XP for free. A bold move.

~~~
mnw21cam
Microsoft has a yearly increasing price for supporting XP. It wouldn't take
very many years of that for it to become silly.

~~~
yulaow
And also microsoft keep supporting xp ONLY IF the client had made a plan with
deadlines to upgrade his current configurations.

~~~
vijayr
So what happens if a huge client (like the Chinese govt) says either Microsoft
support XP or they drop windows for ubuntu (or something similar)?

~~~
freehunter
I would imagine Microsoft wouldn't much care at this point. They give away
Windows 98 for free. If people demanded they support XP for free forever... I
don't think they're going to do that.

------
ant_sz
I think even windows 8 is banned, the government may still keep buying win7
PCs.

Although there are many company in this country are developing linux
distribution such as Deepin, the products are still far from easy to use.

But as a Chinese I support this action because this may contribute to free
this country of a heavy dependence of MicroSoft's products. Let the younger
generation knows there exists not only one operating system in the world will
help improve this countries' average computer knowledge.

------
gtirloni
"windows 8" site:.zycg.gov.cn returns 1050 results. Too bad I can't open them
from the US to verify the news myself. Anyone with access can confirm it with
details?

~~~
wogong
you can see the news here.

[http://www.zycg.gov.cn/article/show/242846](http://www.zycg.gov.cn/article/show/242846)

5\. 所有计算机类产品不允许安装Windows 8操作系统。 5\. all computer products are not allowed to
install Windows 8 operating system. (Google Translate)

------
tom_jones
The idea that competing governments, financial institutions,
telecommunications and energy companies, etc use the same software – when it’s
proven that there is no such thing as real security – is ludicrous. Perhaps
Microsoft’s next big profit will be through developing unique software for
single government and corporate entities with connectivity for general
information but totally secure for trade and government secrets and personal
identification.

------
jiyinyiyong
There's also a discuss on Zhihu (think it as Chinese Quora..). Some
assumptions:
[http://www.zhihu.com/question/23831190?rf=23837828](http://www.zhihu.com/question/23831190?rf=23837828)

* maybe its for pushing Ubuntu Kylin OS to market * The gap on user interface might bring difficulties in govenment * might be some time bofore the source code is examined. * might be new startups on this market

------
alandarev
Is not that an irony? Microsoft closes support of XP in hopes people move to
W8, while China bans W8 because Microsoft closed XP support.

~~~
johnduhart
> Microsoft closes support of XP in hopes people move to W8

Do you really think that's why Microsoft dropped support for a 12 year old OS?

------
Ihmahr
Can I start hoping for linux and FOSS funding!?

~~~
Yuioup
I expect to see a headline soon reading "Not so fast, Linux!" with an article
explaining that this is nothing more than a negotiation tactic to get
Microsoft to offer cheap support.

------
seanliuxx
Both peers are bad, but hate the ideas to make this proceed.

Also a funny to find another post that "Game of thrones author" working on
DOS... Lol

[http://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/windows-not-coming-
gam...](http://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/windows-not-coming-game-thrones-
author-writes-dos-n105156)

------
sz4kerto
Prediction: they are going to get to an agreement pretty soon. MS seems to
react quite quickly recently.

~~~
Already__Taken
I doubt it, China would only be happy if they could vet & build the source
code themselves. MS wouldn't be too clever to give them that.

If this is really about security and not to pull off exactly that above.

~~~
drdaeman
Rumors say, that happened with Russia with Windows 7 (and I've heard similar
stories about Windows 98, 2000 and XP). Why not China?

[http://www.zdnet.com/microsoft-opens-source-code-to-
russian-...](http://www.zdnet.com/microsoft-opens-source-code-to-russian-
secret-service-3040089481/)

~~~
Already__Taken
In my completely uneducated opinion based on heresy China seems to care a
great deal less about intellectual property, patents and licencing right of
companies that aren't Chinese.

Given its regular practice of trying to get companies to manufacture goods in
Chine to steal their process' and technology.

This is also the exact reason SpaceX don't file patents and do not use
anything from Microsoft.

~~~
drdaeman
You see, Russia isn't that caring about copyrights, too. There were relatively
recent (this happened _after_ Windows XP release) industry lobbying that led
to massive rewrite of copyright laws, but illegal copying is still nearly
ubiquitous.

------
njharman
I'm somewhat surprised they didn't do this long ago. Unless they have the
source I'm surprised any government uses any operating system.

------
sirdogealot
To be honest I am surprised that they ever sanctioned the use of Windows
software at all in China given their general distrust of the west.

------
sidmkp96
This link won't open up in Safari 7.0.3. Every time I try, CPU shoots up to
100% and nothing happens. Works fine in FF though.

------
nitrobeast
It is very likely that the Chinese government prefers Windows 7 to Windows 8.
Why the fuss about XP, protectionism?

------
shmerl
They probably worry about backdoors?

------
diabloneo
I think Chinese government will use Windows 8 together with government
sponsored Linux based OS.

------
whoismua
IIRC, large customers--and China's Govt is one of them--have access to the
Windows source code so safety and security probably aren't the top concern.
They can surely audit the code, they have the expertise, money and manpower.

My guess is that US and China went to war over cyber-spying...

~~~
Zigurd
Nobody but Microsoft and perhaps the US government has access to all the
Windows source code, and nobody outside of Microsoft has the ability to build
a runnable Windows.

------
leccine
What they mean is, you are not supposed to install a paid copy of Windows 8 on
any government computer. (downvoters, hint irony)

------
superduper33
tl;dr Windows 8 is a piece of crap.

