
Making a Physical Product - j0ncc
http://b.jonw.com/post/46853309918/making-a-physical-product
======
FigBug
I liked this article and would like to see more like it. With the maker
movement, Kickstarter, 3D printing, etc there now seems to be a lot more
interest in making physical products. But the isn't a lot of public
information about the costs and processes involved, compared to say the number
of tutorials on how to build web app or a mobile app.

I noticed that the actual cost of the 'product' is less than 40% of the total
project costs. And labour isn't even factored in.

I was just involved in making a small injection molded part. I was surprised
how easy and inexpensive it was. For all the hype 3D printing is getting, I
think there could be lots more businesses in making injection molding more
accessible.

~~~
learc83
Do you mind if I ask what was the quantity for your injection molded part, and
what company you ended up going with.

Last time I tried to price injection molding it was way too much.

~~~
willtheperson
My dad runs a small plastic injection molding company. He's got a single bread
and butter product they make, but he's always looking for new ideas.

Is there a way for people to easily connect with manufacturers in the USA? My
dads shop is really small and hungry vs some shop you could find in a google
search with lots of machines (and expensive)

~~~
soggypenny
A solution to this problem is EXACTLY what my co-founder and I are working on
right now. We're working to be Match.com for custom-made parts, and highly
specialized shops like your dad's are the ideal use case for our product.
Would you be willing to talk directly or put me in touch with your dad? We'd
love to help out any way we can.

~~~
grannyg00se
I'm looking for a match to a die casting or cnc milling shop. Your contact
info is not in your profile. Care to shoot me an email?

~~~
soggypenny
Hi grannyg00se! I don't see an email in your profile, so:

1\. Rob 2\. SupplyBetter.com

1 @ 2 is my email. Let's talk.

------
yajoe
Really cool to see the numbers and congrats on making the product!

One nit to emphasize the value in basic accounting knowledge for others when
going down the manufacturing route: it's $11.37 __gross__ margin (aka gross
profit, see <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_margin> ), not __net__ profit
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profit_Margin> ). While this may sound silly
and academic, _net_ confers a sense of finality -- it includes all costs,
marketing, discounts to sell remnant inventory, depreciations... everything.
Learning this distinction will also introduce you to inventory management,
promotion cycles, and all sorts of other crazy business skills to help you get
to the next level in building a game business. There are hundreds of years of
wisdom built up about manufacturing that all has to funnel through....
accounting...

For example, having >50% net profit is fantastic for manufacturing! Having
>50% gross profit is on par for low-scale, specialty products. Jon's 11.37 is
a gross profit and on par. Knowing nothing about this specific market, the
standard advice in this case is to focus on growing the market rather than
reducing costs at this point. (This is a business-model version of the 'don't
scale prematurely' mantra you hear in tech considering his price of $20/game
doesn't seem insane).

Back-of-the-envelope calculations show the gross revenue for all 333 sets is
$6,660. Assuming he's included all costs, this means:

    
    
      Revenue:    $6,660
      Costs:      $4,660
      ==================
      Net Profit: $2,000
    

Which means a net profit of $6/set, a little more than 25% of the sale.
Depending on how aggressively he wants the market, he should offer discounts
to influential or trend-setting groups of people in the 25% range.

Another way to look at this business is he would get a return of $2,000 for
$4,660 in capital (since he has 1 production run), or 50% ROI... also not too
shabby (if sold at retail price).

And yet another way to look at this is manufacturing the product over 8 hours
yields $2000, or $250/hour... better than most. It's unclear how much time he
spent on the admin and design tasks, but since this is a labor of love...
let's assume it was leisure time and free :) It also means a second production
run may get him an economy scale from re-using the design and website assets
for even more $$$/hour.

All-in-all, this looks great across the board, and I wish the Jon the best of
luck in bringing Space Dice to the world!

~~~
bigiain
Good analysis.

One comment though - if the intention is to get the game onto the shelf in
retail stores, there's not enough margin in it at the current cost/pricing.

A store is going to require most (or all) of that margin - in most "dice game"
type stores, if you want to put a product on the shelf at $20, you're going to
need to sell it to the store for somewhere around $14 or they're not going to
be interested.

Seems to me that at least an investigation into whether getting a run of 3,000
or 30,000 sets made up (and outsourcing the 80 or 800hrs of packaging work)
would be a worthwhile exercise rather than being premature optimisation.

~~~
samstave
Just me being cynical, but this fact is what is wrong with the entire world.
Everyone wants to make things as cheap as possible, and then sell them as
expensive as possible.

Every single thing in our lives is driven by this dynamic and it is a cancer.

What is the way out of this that keeps people happy and doesn't destroy us?

~~~
chad_oliver
On the contrary, I think this dynamic (combined with strong human rights) is a
great blessing to humanity. In a market economy, 'as expensively as possible'
tends to mean 'not very expensively', and 'make things as cheap as possible'
means 'make your processes more efficient'. And efficiency is the reason why
we can have nice things.

~~~
samstave
While I dont take issue with your optimism and logic, I think it is flawed and
naive, even if only due to the following:

Go to a grocery store; Safeway or whole foods. Note the prices for items based
on their qty/weight/etc.

Now go to a restaurant wholesale style place (not a costco, which is an
illusion of savings).

A place like "cash and carry" (there is one in oakland) where the small scale
restaurateurs purchase goods for sale and markup to Joe Consumer.

Look at the price difference and what you, even as a non-wholesale-licensed-
individual can purchase.

Now, the price you are paying in a place like cash and carry is still a
profitable amount for both cash and carry AND the upstream providers to
___them_ __(distributors, farmers, whomever) - but the prices are far less
than a Safeway...

So, while I think that the statement you made is true, to a point, I think
that we need a revolution in what industries gouge and which don't.

Food prices are being designed to kill. (I'd love to go into detail but it
just hit midnight and I have a GOT episode to rewatch)

~~~
jdietrich
Supermarkets have absolutely tiny net profits, usually just a couple of
percent. They have substantially greater labour costs than a wholesaler. They
have higher rents, because their stores are less densely stocked and in more
convenient (and more expensive) locations. They have high shrinkage on many
products, losing >30% of their fresh produce and bakery goods to spoilage and
a significant proportion of product to theft and employee fraud.

Food is cheap to buy from a cash-and-carry because it's cheap to sell. It's
sold straight off the pallet, in an out-of-town warehouse with dirt cheap
rent. Average SKU value is much higher, massively reducing labour costs.
Shrinkage is tiny, because of the high turnover of perishable goods and the
greater security possible in a warehouse store. Cash-and-carry wholesalers
still have very tight margins, but they have much lower costs than
supermarkets.

Food retail is ruthlessly competitive on price, because there are so few other
points of differentiation. The idea that there's a malevolent conspiracy in
food pricing is utterly farcical to anyone with even a rudimentary
understanding of the food supply chain.

------
gcheong
Why make an iPhone app to keep track of planets owned when you could just make
a simple paper based scorecard? Or am I missing something about the complexity
of the game? An app might be useful but you want the game to be playable by
the largest number of peopl possible and there could be some opportunity for
recurring revenue from selling the scorecards.

~~~
MrThousand
I think the idea of an iOS app sounds great. Why waste paper when you can
simply click "new game" on your phone?

~~~
pseut
Why waste plastic on dice when you can click, "new roll" on your phone? Some
people might like games like this because they're not digital.

~~~
MrThousand
Because it's not as fun as physically rolling the dice. There's not much
additional gain to writing down the score on a piece of paper versus keeping
score on an app tailored towards the game.

~~~
pseut
Yeah, it's also possible that I considered that and disagree with you. I'm not
saying that everyone will prefer keeping score on paper, but some people
really do and some other people will appreciate not having an iPhone on the
table when they play a dice game.

------
DividesByZero
"I spent a few hours hacking together a little rails app which would play out
100,000 rolls in a few seconds and tell me the chances of everything coming
up. "

Why did the author write a rails app to run statistical experiments on what
are easy to calculate probabilities? It seems that if you want to make a
probability based game you ought to have at least a working knowledge of the
basics.

~~~
tantalor
Maybe the rules are too complex to work out the probabilities directly. For
example, landing on each property in Monopoly.

The _real_ question is why write a _rails_ app? How does a web application
framework help you roll dice?

~~~
DividesByZero
I can forgive that - I often accidentally say 'rails' when I mean ruby as
well.

~~~
sim0n
Except this is a Rails app, not just Ruby.

------
munificent
"In space, noone can hear you roll! The fate of the galaxy is in your hands,
as you race your friends to create (or destroy) planets. Who will be the first
to 10? Only the dice know."

Ouch, two errors:

"noone" -> "no one"

"hands, as" -> "hands as"

~~~
j0ncc
Fixed this. Thank you!

~~~
BadCookie
There are also two icons labeled "supernova" at the bottom of the page, which
seems like a mistake. Good luck!

~~~
unwind
... and "blackhole" is not a word, it's two.

------
jonknee
For your next run you should shop around for a different tube supplier, it's a
huge portion of your unit cost (24%) and I bet you can drop its price by at
least half.

~~~
famousactress
Or consider not using a tube! The bottoms fall out if you shake them to
shuffle which has caused at least one case of Zombie Dice ending up in all
corners of a small bar to my knowledge :|

I'd consider a bag.

------
dcalacci
It's eye-opening to see a breakdown of the process behind conceiving,
designing, and manufacturing a product. I think that for many, this process is
hidden behind smoke and mirrors, but Jon made it appear doable and worthwhile.

It's also empowering to know that he did this with ~$5000 USD. I have no doubt
that small-scale production like this would have been prohibitively difficult
(read: annoying/costly) even five years ago.

------
famousactress
Awesome! (purchased) I've been reading about game design and playing with
ideas myself. The prototyping was _this_ past Christmas? So you went from
concept to sales in three months!? That seems fabulous. Congrats.

~~~
jakeburtn
You mention that you've been reading about game design, any recommendations?

~~~
famousactress
Only sporadically, much of it online.. I have found this book highly
recommended and plan on kindle-ing it soon: [http://www.amazon.com/Rules-Play-
Game-Design-Fundamentals/dp...](http://www.amazon.com/Rules-Play-Game-Design-
Fundamentals/dp/0262240459/)

------
tunesmith
Would love to see a follow-up on what you actually try to do in terms of
marketing and distribution - as I'm finishing up my first 7-song album, I'm
painfully aware that even after all the songwriting, recording, mixing,
mastering, and product design, "release day" means that you are still only
half done.

------
jeffandersen
In case you miss it in the middle of the article, these are the instructions
for the game:
[http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0218/2060/files/spacedice.p...](http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0218/2060/files/spacedice.pdf)

~~~
EStudley
All that work and there's still a typo on the first sentence, second page.

~~~
nollidge
And the directions are still pretty confusing. For example, I had no idea the
debris' orientation mattered until I saw the examples. And what happens if
there's a dispute about whether the debris is aiming at a planet or not? And
also, can I keep a planet if I didn't roll a sun with it? I assume not, but
it's not explicitly clear. And what's the difference between orange and yellow
space debris? Also, the How to Play section indicates I should only keep
planets and black holes, but don't I also keep stars so that my planets stay
habitable?

~~~
toki5
The answers are there, but I agree that it could be quite a bit clearer.

> Can I keep a planet if I didn't roll a sun with it?

No - suns make planets habitable (see the Sun section); you can only keep
habitable planets and black holes.

>What's the difference between orange and yellow space debris?

There is no difference between red and orange space debris (there are no
yellow -- the colors in the instructions are slightly off from what the dice
actually show). There's also no difference between yellow and green
planets/suns -- take a look at the image in the article that shows all the
dice laid out. I think it'll clear that question up.

>but don't I also keep stars so that my planets stay habitable?

That makes logical sense, but since the instructions specifically state to
keep only planets and black holes, no, suns go back in the tube. I think the
logic behind this is two-fold: One, since planets and black holes are the only
metric for score, any planet that you keep has a star in its imaginary galaxy,
so a planet that is by a player actually represents not just a planet but also
"at least one star." Two, a green/orange die going back into the tube helps
keep the game points flowing.

------
clarle
As a huge board-gamer, I always love seeing the "making-of" of different
games, and this one is no exception. I especially thought the prototype was
pretty hilarious, but it definitely makes sense to have one when working with
a physical product.

I'm not too surprised at how much the costs ended up turning out to be, but I
am curious as to how long it took to assemble everything together, from
prototype to finish? I guess the main difference for a physical product is
really the time it takes to get from prototype to sellable product, rather
than just hacking something out in a weekend and getting it out there
immediately.

------
marban
Did anyone come across some good articles on dealing with suppliers on alibaba
(test-runs, QA, IP, shipping, customs, etc.)?

~~~
dobbsbob
Use a throwaway account when dealing on Alibaba your email is either sold or
leaked and you will receive a thousand scam offers per second after sending an
inquiry to a vendor.

I did manage to do a test run of 100 custom cellphones there though and it
worked out fine. I had a friend who speaks Mandarin actually call the place
directly though and didn't deal through Alibaba

------
tjic
Coincidentally, I made a plastic d6 in my home workshop yesterday using
silicone molds. This is just a prototype for more molding work in the future.

<http://365bowls.com/?p=175>

------
muratmutlu
Loved this post, great that he wrote a rails app and nice to get the costs at
the end too.

I tried to make a wi-fi kettle with a wifi module in that had a API, the
prototype alone was a huge expense (£25k+) and to get it into production was
around £200k (CE certified etc). In the end I just wrote up the blog post
(here [http://www.mobileinc.co.uk/2010/03/introducing-the-
twettle-p...](http://www.mobileinc.co.uk/2010/03/introducing-the-twettle-
project-the-kettle-that-tweets/))

Props to anyone who makes something physical, it's dedication, passion and
investment

~~~
Torrents
So did you make it onto kickstarter? You just spent the £25k out of pocket for
the prototype?

~~~
muratmutlu
No we didn't make it as at the time they wouldn't let UK residents apply to
Kickstarter.

We didn't spend money on the prototype in the end, we just couldn't get the
backing, it would probably be a lot easier these days tho (it was 3/4 years
ago)

------
willtheperson
Purchased. I love hearing stories from people who just got up off the couch
and did something.

Congratulations! Can't wait to play!

------
curt
Got a couple emails asking me questions, this is the company I always used in
the US for prototyping. They are a little expensive but fast. They also have
great resources that will answer all your questions:

<http://www.protomold.com/Resources.aspx>

------
dplusavidg
This really resonates with me. I am currently working on a physical product of
my own. In a world where digital goods are the norm, I'm thinking of
publishing a bi-weekly magazine.

I'm still really in the planning stages, as I haven't got any experience on
this front at all. But I do have some of the digital backbone in place
already. And I have my ideas stirring in a pot now. All that's needed is for
me to start cooking.

Anyway, I would just like to say that I am inspired by what I'm seeing here.
I'll work as hard as I possibly can. Wish me luck!

------
amit_m
Interesting post. The author could save another 0.83$ per package by skipping
the included instruction manual.

I think it's safe to assume that very close to 100% of users will have an
internet connection available when playing this game, unless they're on a
vacation abroad. I would opt for: 1\. Full manual + videos on spacedice.com,
aimed for use before the first time one plays the game. 2\. Abridged version
of manual printed on the tube, mainly meant for recalling some specifics of
the game.

~~~
atlbeer
It's hard to gesticulate wildly and throw digital instructions at your
opponent while disagreeing on the rules.

------
mprinz
I'm impressed by how fast you decided to go into production. How many
playtests did you do? I know a bunch of people who failed with a game that
wasn't sufficiently tested. I experienced that the main faults in game design
are testing with the same group over and over again, and relying to much on
calculations rather than getting real life feedback.

But hey, it looks awesome. Great Design. If you come over to the largest game
fair in Essen (Germany) this year, I may grab one ;)

------
rianelli
Curious why you chose to spend $2.06 on the tubing stateside? That's a lot of
money for packaging, and then to have to assemble the kits together. I'd try
and get as much done in China as possible, especially the tubing, which would
run you far less and you would be shipping a finished product and minimizing
costs a ton.

Happy to help anyone who needs guidance on sourcing and manufacturing in
China. I've become pretty savvy over the years.

~~~
Torrents
Hi rianelli, if you don't mind I'd love to take you up on your offer and
bounce some questions off of you. I can be contacted at hn.torvid at
recursor.net

Thanks!

------
orangethirty
The landing page is missing an important piece. The explanation of how the
game works in _text_. Its beautiful, well structured, but missing that key
part. I was _ready_ to give it a try, but I did not want to see the video. You
have to include an explanation in text. Or even an image of how it works. You
are losing sales to this. Fix it.

------
tummybug
Not sure if you are aware (or its designed that way) but on your website you
have two different dice both labeled 'supernova'.

------
fragsworth
The costs breakdown neglects his own time put into the project.

To get the real total cost (which must be estimated), we should know how many
hours he spent on it, and what his expected hourly rate might be if he were an
independent contractor.

You can't really decide whether or not the endeavor was a net gain unless you
also take your own time into account.

~~~
jere
Did you ever consider maybe some endeavors in life are pursued for reasons
other than profit?

~~~
fragsworth
Well, it is possible to simultaneously enjoy your work and also put a monetary
value on your time. These two things aren't mutually exclusive.

And besides, if profits are not a motive, why analyze them to begin with?

------
SimianLogic2
Good article. I've been working on a board game prototype on and off for a
couple of years and have decks of cards with things taped on them that look
very similar to your dice. My plan was to perfect the mechanics and then just
make an iPad app, but I think this demonstrates a boutique print run is not
that unfeasible.

------
aik
This looks great. I have no experience with selling physical products and so
not sure what it takes, but I would think selling these on various specialty
websites and specialty stores could work great. Thinkgeek.com is one that
comes to mind.

------
RobotCaleb
This sounds really cool. Congrats on shipping it!

I'd love to check it out, but I don't think I'd enjoy it very much due to my
being color blind. Have you given any thought to designing the images to not
be dependent on color?

------
alttab
Article read like an episode of Shark Tank. These sorts of real constraints is
good information to mix into not-always-related-to-business technical
discussions.

------
chrischen
I watched the video on the site and still didn't really get how the game
worked. I couldn't find any written instructions on the site.

~~~
jorde
Neither did I but the video was so cute that I bought a pack (actually three
with friends to lower the shipping per pack)

------
devgutt
Very cool, but I missed a board when I saw the video of the game. Still seems
to be very interesting.

------
nnq
> I spent a few hours hacking together a little rails app which would play out
> 100,000 rolls in a few seconds and tell me the chances of everything coming
> up.

Can't people do the math anymore, they have to simulate everything?! And they
have to do it with a mtf web framework?! A spreadsheet and some pen and paper
to figure out the formulas would've sufficed...

~~~
roel_v
And yet here he is, selling an actual product to actual customers, and you're
sitting at your desk with your presumed 'advanced math knowledge' bitching
about others not knowing how to do math...

------
tocomment
Have you considered selling these in Target or Walmart, or perhaps specialty
stores?

~~~
patio11
Hobbyist stores will probably require keystoning: if the retail price is $20
then the maximum wholesale price they can pay is $10. Note the margins on the
product, now wince.

Also, arranging distribution with them is very problematic. (Source: I had
delusions of running one, once.)

------
tantalor
Every game I've ever played has a suggested age range, e.g., 5+ years old.

Is this good for kids?

------
joshrotenberg
Really cool. Just purchased!

~~~
joshrotenberg
Wow, my Space Dice just arrived. That was fast! I guess being one town away
had something to do with it.

I'll play it later with my kids and see what they think (my opinion rarely
counts these days).

------
joemaller1
This was front page all day, I'm surprised he has any left to sell.

------
SCAQTony
Very well done and finally. WoW! God does plays dice!

------
tocomment
How did you find the company to make the packaging?

------
adaml_623
$69 for 1 yr of a .com domain? You need to shop around more.

But pretty inspiring! Good looking game!

~~~
brackin
Maybe he bought it from someone else or paid for multiple years.

~~~
adaml_623
It was only registered for 1 year so I was pretty sure it wasn't the latter.
And far too cheap to be bought from someone else. But since it was an expiring
domain I guess it was money well spent.

