
Evidence that ancient Japan was more cosmopolitan than previously thought (2016) - benbreen
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2016/10/05/national/history/research-uncovers-evidence-ancient-japan-cosmopolitan-previously-thought/#.WKvgqRjMzv0
======
blackbagboys
The article describes evidence that an educated member of the Persian elite
was employed at an academy that trained officials of the Japanese imperial
government. It's not at all clear how the researcher in the article makes the
leap from this limited evidence for elite-to-elite contact to the conclusion
that "...this suggests Nara was a cosmopolitan city where foreigners were
treated equally.” Consider the conclusions that would be drawn from the
modern-day scenario of a modern-day Persian employed at a government training
facility in, say, Pyongyang...

~~~
Steko
> It's not at all clear how the researcher in the article makes the leap

Maybe because this article is a summary for popular consumption and presents
conclusions instead of every step that leads to them?

~~~
mikekchar
This is likely to sound a bit reactionary, but hopefully it will help some
people. In my estimation, the Japan Times exists to perpetuate a certain
stereotype of Japan to the west. I suspect that it's not so much that the
editorial staff holds these views personally, rather that it is lucrative to
pander to pre-existing feelings toward Japan. Remember that this is primarily
an English language newspaper. Japanese people generally do not read it.

If you use the Japan Times as your primary source of information about Japan,
I suspect that you will come away with the impression that Japan is a
xenophobic, corrupt, authoritarian, misogynist country that is on the verge of
financial collapse. While there is some truth behind these things, the Japan
Times has a way of presenting the information such that if you already hold
this view, confirmation bias will very satisfyingly kick in.

Why do I mention this WRT to this article (apart from the fact that it is
published in the Japan Times)? Because, as far as I know, nobody ever doubted
that Japan in the Nara time frame had foreigners living in Japan. Just look at
the Wikipedia page for the Nara period. Anyone who has ever been to Nara will
have seen the evidence for themselves. Nara was not just open to foreign
cultures, it was aggressively adopting them (especially Chinese culture). The
fact that there was a Persian living in Japan at the time is interesting, but
hardly mind blowing.

So why on earth would you publish this article? To provide a contrast for
readers -- Wow, Japan wasn't always xenophobic! I wonder when it started?
Perhaps I'm jaded, but that's what I see here. The original question is a good
one, because it tries to probe the intent of the original research, rather
than to accept the presentation of the editing staff at face value.

~~~
Steko
Your comment assumes that the Japan Times coverage is exceptional but I didn't
find the Yomiuri Shimbun's very different and the ideas you object to and want
to attribute to the Japan Times slant seem to be consistent with direct quotes
from the researcher.

> nobody ever doubted that Japan in the Nara time frame had foreigners living
> in Japan

Actual claim is: "this is the first time a person as far away as Persia was
known to have worked in Japan" Seem like an important difference.

> Just look at the Wikipedia page for the Nara period... Anyone who has ever
> been to Nara

I'm guessing Akihiro Watanabe of the Nara National Research Institute for
Cultural Properties has both been to Nara and is as familiar with the place as
the average reader of the English wiki article. He apparently holds these
views you ridicule as nothing so much as Japan Times editorializing.

> The fact that there was a Persian living in Japan at the time is
> interesting, but hardly mind blowing.

The idea that the article claims it's "mind blowing" seems like a straw man.

> So why on earth would you publish this article?

Probably because the Nara National Research Institute for Cultural Properties
had a press release and it seemed like an interesting item. Sometimes a cigar
is just a cigar.

~~~
mikekchar
First, the Yomiuri Shimbun's coverage _is_ the Japan Times's coverage. Look at
the by line -- "Japan Times/ANN".

And, I'm sure it's an important discovery. I'm not so sure it is being
reported well. That's my point.

~~~
Steko
I'm talking about actual Japanese coverage[1] which includes stuff like
"古代の日本が予想よりも国際色豊かだった可能性" ('It appears Ancient Japan was more international
than expected') not strikingly that different from the Japan Times headline.

[1]
[https://www.google.com/search?q=%E6%B8%A1%E8%BE%BA+%E6%99%83...](https://www.google.com/search?q=%E6%B8%A1%E8%BE%BA+%E6%99%83%E5%AE%8F&safe=active&biw=1278&bih=958&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A10%2F4%2F2016%2Ccd_max%3A10%2F20%2F2016&tbm=#safe=active&tbs=cdr:1%2Ccd_min:10%2F4%2F2016%2Ccd_max:10%2F20%2F2016&q=%22%E6%B8%A1%E8%BE%BA+%E6%99%83%E5%AE%8F%22)

~~~
mikekchar
My google results do no match yours. Mainichi has a story and does not include
that quote (or any other). Nikkei as well. There is a Youtube video of the
story which describes it, but includes no quotes. It mentions that there is an
exhibition where you can go and see the artefacts.

I could not find the story in the Japanese version of the Yomiuri newspaper
from google, but I found another site that linked to it. When I followed the
link, it was dead.

The focus of the articles I've read seems to be that this is the oldest
written evidence of Persians coming to Japan, which I agree is very
interesting.

------
z2
Prior to Europe's Age of Discovery, much of the world was actually quite well-
connected. Just look at Ibn Battuta's travels
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Battuta](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Battuta))
-- when in Yuan Dynasty China, he stayed in a city's Muslim quarter with
Egyptian immigrants!

~~~
perfmode
World traveler in the 1300's. Incredible.

~~~
HarryHirsch
The Ancients were not that primitive. There is the _Periplus Maris Erythraei_
, a manual for traders that describes the ports of the Indian Ocean, from
Zanzibar to Sri Lanka. These are the ports that were _regularly_ visited by
merchantmen on trading voyages. More adventurous characters might want to cut
out the middleman and sail further to China, whose existence is mentioned in
the same text.

700 years prior Pharao Necho II outfitted an expedition to sail around the
African continent, for no other reason than research.

[http://www.livius.org/sources/content/herodotus/herodotus-
on...](http://www.livius.org/sources/content/herodotus/herodotus-on-the-first-
circumnavigation-of-africa/)

------
rpazyaquian
I don't know if I would call the Heian period "ancient".

~~~
GolDDranks
The article isn't about the Heian period (794–1185) but Nara period (710–794).
(Or at least it is implied.) The Nara period was the first historical period
in the history of Japan. (Historical defined as: written history surviving
from that period exists) In that sense, it makes sense to me to call it
"ancient".

------
sandworm101
This is why i like HN. often it isnt the OPs but how reading posted articles
means accessing news sources i wouldnt normally see. From the OP about ancient
japan i found this amusing story about modern japanese language and cultural
perspective.

[http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/02/17/national/japans-...](http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/02/17/national/japans-
interpreters-struggle-to-make-sense-of-trump-speeches/#.WKy4l_yIY0M)

~~~
titanix2
A Japanese people saying "He rarely speaks logically, and he only emphasizes
one side of things as if it were the absolute truth." feels very ironical to
me. Having lived there I discovered that logic is not a core value and more
often than not one have to do something the way it is supposed to be done,
period. Given that's the second paragraph first sentence, I would take the
whole article with a grain of salt.

------
tn13
Evidence that prejudiced white western beliefs about orient turned out to be
wrong ? Who is surprised fellas.

This might sound like a racist rant but it is not. I routinely come across
American Indologists routinely publishing papers about India which are way off
than what an Indian might be able to see as trivial truth. I will not be
surprised of Western world has made similar mistakes about the Orient.

I think western academia needs a more unbiased fact-check about their
understanding of the rest of the world especially in the times of xenophobia.

