
ADHD Is Fuel for Adventure - pmcpinto
http://www.outsideonline.com/2048391/adhd-fuel-adventure
======
derefr
Orthogonal. Having ADHD doesn't imply a desire to be outside playing. It's a
disorder of motivation, not a disorder of focus—an inability to _practice_ ,
and sometimes to _concentrate_ ; but not an inability to think, or to enjoy
thinking.

Personally, in my childhood, I liked math and science. I had (and still have)
ADHD, which made that hard, but I struggled through, because that was my
passion. Medication (which I didn't get until I was 22) makes it much less
hard.

Telling me my aptitude was in running around outdoors would have been the last
thing I ever wanted to hear. I liked _exploring_ , sure (people with ADHD are
almost always Bartle Explorer-types[1]), but building up physical endurance
was just one of the many things I couldn't motivate myself to do, and would
have heavily resisted someone attempting to push that on me.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_Test](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_Test)

~~~
spacedmountain
I would further polish your desription - and call it a disorder of mismatched
motivation.

People with ADHD can motivate just fine on things that stimulate them - and
have even reported 'hyperfocus', a trance-like state of emersion in something.
The problem is things that are not stimulating become very challanging or even
impossible. This is why bills, appointment, rules, and chores can be so
difficult for ADHD people to commit to. 'Normal Type' people may find misery
in these sorts of tasks, but they are able to motivate themselves to complete
them - and the tasks generally don't take that long for them.

A good way I've heard ADHD described is that people with the condition have no
percetiption of time. If stimulated, its easy for them to loose track of how
much time has passed - even forgetting to eat or sleep. If unstimulated, the
misery seems to be never-ending, even if it would only take a short time to
complete if the person applied themselves.

As an example: Michael Phelps (who has the condition) has been very able to
motivate himself to practice swimming. Swimming at his level is a very tedious
sport, requiring five or more hours a day in a pool staring at the black line
on the bottom.

I've personally found sport (swimming and extreme) to be helpful in managing
ADHD, both while doing the activity and maybe for a day or two afterwards.
Also as a motivator before hand to get through tasks I find miserable to give
some time for the activity.

~~~
antihero
Oh man, speaking to the choir. When I'm coding something interesting, my
motivation and ability to focus is second to none. When it comes to things
that don't massively interest me my brain is completely unable to focus. I've
got better.

It's like our brains are like a magnetic pole. Some stuff is a opposite pole
(so our brains magnetise towards it), and some are like the same pole and your
mind is repelled from the task.

Once I was walking into the kitchen to pick something up off of the counter,
and then as I reached for it, I got distracted and reached for the the fridge,
and ended up literally falling over because I was trying to go in two
different directions.

~~~
cylinder
I look at people who are intrinsically motivated, seemingly all the time, with
amazement. How are they able to consistently and constantly remain motivated?
Is it because they have positive momentum in their results and I don't?

I am motivated by novel stimuli and challenges but once I figure it out and
they become routine it almost becomes painful to keep working on it.

------
elfyhat
But will the positive experience kids get with this kind of activity have a
long-lasting impact in their life? Will they grow up to be adults without ADHD
or lesser symptoms?

I was in the scouts when I was a kid and teen, ultimately reaching the rank of
Eagle scout. I did plenty of outdoor activities and sports, not necessarily
extreme, however we did go portaging deep into the Boundary Waters quite a few
times. Yet, my ADHD persisted throughout my teens and 20s and I still suffer
from this disorder as an adult in my mid-30s. Of course this is anecdotal.

I guess it's a positive thing that being active outdoors will help a child
while he grows up. Hopefully it helps in the long-term. In my case, I only
wish it had.

Short rant: it's pretty common these days to talk about the over-medication
and over-diagnosing of children with ADHD. We must remember that some of these
cases are truly warranted. I wasn't diagnosed until I was 30. Since I've been
on meds my quality of life has improved dramatically.

Quick edit for a warning: ADHD medications are very powerful and must be
treated with respect. Do your research before and after starting them. Don't
hesitate to visit even abuser forums or reddit so you can read about the
negative effects of consuming too much, too often. You can easily jeopardize
your mental future by taking the medications the wrong way.

~~~
yesco
Something to keep in mind is that adrenaline is something used in medication
to treat ADHD in some cases. The desire for some to go out and do things like
this (ie: Base Jumping) could be sourced to them craving that adrenaline that
helps them focus. Maybe they are taking the wrong type of medication or maybe
they aren't taking any at all.

Additionally I found this part very frustrating

 _> >Panksepp points out that while common stimulant medications for ADHD like
Ritalin and Adderall may improve attention skills and academic performance in
many kids, they do so at the cost of reducing the playfulness urge—at least
temporarily. “We know these are anti-play drugs in animals,” he says. “That is
clear and unambiguous.”_

This is strongly anecdotal but as someone who takes Adderall, I can't say this
could be any further from the truth. The only thing that I can come up with
that could lead to this thinking is that younger kids who have trouble with
their hyperactivity might not be as hyper anymore after taking medication
(which was the whole point in the first place for some). All this is doing is
encouraging more adrenaline junkies to treat themselves outside of
conventional means.

~~~
SpaceCadetJones
I can actually attest to being less playful on medication. I'm a very upbeat,
humorous, and witty person. Too much of a stimulant however makes me very
bland, an intense listener, and I have trouble coming up with replies to
people. I tend to think of it as generally I have a firehose of ideas and
thoughts spewing, and medication pinches the hose and directs its flow. It's a
balancing act though

~~~
reitanqild
I believe you. That said it seems to vary wildly.

From what I have witnessed it even varies with type of the same stimulant from
person to person, even within a family. (In a case I know all too well the
recipient get tongue swelling as well as clenched jaws[0] on R XR at 40mg/day
but has absolutely no issues with doses from 40 - 80 mg/day of the standard
one. Oh, and the other person in this study, the brother of the first, went
into spiraling weight loss at 60mg/day but prefer XR.)

Also playfulness seems to be preserved in these two cases. The best
explanation I can come up with is: lowers the "interesting" threshold so that
driving according to the speed limits is less intensely boring etc.

[0]: of course this can be reactions to additives of XR but they are commonly
referred to as side effects of R itself.

------
yesco
This article is ignoring that fact that there is a variety of different types
of ADHD[1]. For example I have ADHD-PI which is just ADHD without the
hyperactivity. I can't say I ever had a strong desire to play outside when I
was younger and if anything I resented it.

ADHD is a very complicated neurological disorder which can be difficult to
diagnose due to its similarities with other disorders like depression or
social anxiety. In my case, the social anxiety was noticed long before my ADHD
was when in reality ADHD was the root cause. For others this can actually be
the opposite, their symptoms appeared to be ADHD but in reality they have a
sleeping disorder.

Articles like this seem to be pushing an agenda ( Website Title: Outsiders
Online ) and are trying to find an easy generalized solution to a complicated
problem. That being said, exercise mixed in with education is something that
should be important anyway, for all kids. Exercise keeps you healthy and
motivated, regardless of any mental disability they may have.

[1][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attention_deficit_hyperactivit...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attention_deficit_hyperactivity_disorder#Diagnostic_and_Statistical_Manual)

------
panglott
Isn't it normal to have difficulty focusing on things that are really boring?

ADHD diagnosis rates are several times higher in the US than in other
developed countries, and orders of scale higher than in low-diagnosis
countries (such as France). The biggest risk factors for an ADHD diagnoses
include things like "being male" and "being in the youngest quartile of your
kindergarten class". That's an amazing thing to pathologize. In the US, the
drive to perform well on standardized tests has gotten to such an extreme that
kindergarteners are expected to have literacy performance that was expected of
1st-graders a generation ago, and children are expected to _come_ to
kindergarten with the alphabet knowledge that they would have learned in
kindergarten a generation ago. Meanwhile, the amount of time young children
have spent at recess has declined hugely in the last 30 years, with very many
schools having no recess at all.

Isn't there a margin where this is a disorder because of the interaction
between an individual and their environment, where the environment is the
problem?

Some amount of ADHD-spectrum behavior might should be considered within the
range of normal child development, which is being pathologized by a system
that doesn't give young children (especially slightly younger boys) enough
exercise. The main treatment for ADHD is lifelong amphetamine use, and nobody
can say whether this treatment prevents children from developing coping
mechanisms that they would otherwise normally develop before adulthood.

If something as simple as more exercise can marginally reduce ADHD diagnosis
or medication rates, that would be a huge advance.

~~~
spacedmountain
This speaks to a common commment about ADHD. Where is the border between a
'personality trait' and a disorder?

The condition is usually defined by having an impairment in at least two
environments (ie school, home, work, sports teams). 'Impairment' is obviously
subjective, but implies something more than simply being bored. Playing a game
in a boring meeting probably isn't ADHD. Being unable to focus for more than a
few minutes in _any_ meeting is a stronger sign, and could really make it
harder.

On diagnosis rates - in most countries its 2-5% (>10% of children in the
USA..). That is about 2 standard deviations from an 'average' person, which
can actually be quite a difference. For comparison, a 'genius' is someone who
scores in the top 2% of an IQ test. Economic elite are '1%-ers'. I'd agree
that there is a continiuous spectrum, and also that it is mis/over-diagnosed
in a considerable number of cases. I think it is this over-treatment that you
are questioning, but lets be cautious to not add to the stigma around
legitmate cases of the condition.

I'd agree often the challange is between individual and their environment -
although often 'enviroment' includes people around them. Often the environment
is hard to change - do the 95% change to accomodate 5%? There is advice for
careers that people with ADHD tend to be better at - sales, entrepreneurship,
and medicine for their fast-pace and energy, or jobs like the military where
there is a lot of structure.

I think its more complex than saying exercise would reduce diagnosis or
medication rates. In particular, if exercise alone 'cures' ADHD, it is likely
a mild or mis-diagnosed case. In my own experiance, exercise (as well as sleep
and diet) do affect symptoms, but don't eliminate them.

~~~
panglott
Yea, my concerns are threefold: overdiagnosis, the diagnosis of young
children, and the impact of treatment on developing children. I don't doubt
that ADHD is a real disorder, but if the true rate of occurrence is 2-5% while
the US diagnosis rate is 10%, that means that a huge proportion of American
kids are overdiagnosed. And the leading treatment for ADHD is quite intense:
lifelong use of very powerful drugs, with no real understanding of how that
impacts normal child development.

I would be surprised if exercise alone works for people who struggle with a
very disabling condition, but I suspect interventions less extreme than a full
ADHD diagnosis and medication regimen would do a lot of good for kids who
might otherwise be overdiagnosed as ADHD.

And as far as the concern as to whether the 95% should change to accommodate
the 5%, what we're talking about here is "getting more exercise"—and when huge
numbers of schools don't require recess—it's something that the 95% would
benefit from.

------
bayesianhorse
ADHD has severe consequences on children: less happiness, less self control,
more aggressiveness, higher risk of substance abuse and in general much lower
grades.

Unless a new treatment can demonstrate that it can reduce these consequences
as well as medication does in the majority of cases, let's stick with the
treatment that works, shall we?

~~~
papapra
In addition, I would like to see more articles about the dangers of
misdiagnosis of adhd. There are a lot a conditions that can be mistaken for
adhd( sleep disorders to overactive thyroid). The articles that try to glorify
it really annoy me, I can't come up with a single benefit of adhd in my life.

~~~
bayesianhorse
I'd say hyperthyroidism is difficult to overlook. At least I hope nobody is
started on long term stimulant treatment without routinely checking simple
blood parameters.

------
ghostcake
I have ADHD. Rather than focus on what it is and whether it's real, I'd like
to focus on what helps. Cardio and adrenaline help more than anything else for
immediate relief. So much of dealing with ADHD is realizing your tendencies
and building your life in a way that is conducive to your work flows. I know I
need frequent breaks, privacy and hydration. If I'm about to have a panic
attack because I can't concentrate and work is due, I go for a short bike ride
and set the work aside momentarily. If I tried to work on at that moment, not
only would I not make progress but I'll probably have an anxiety attack. Once
I give my brain room to breath programming issues seem so much easier.

------
ap22213
Unfortunately, while probably well-meaning, articles like this perpetrate
ideas that make parents and individuals avoid proven, clinical treatments.

------
greys0ul
I think this is an excellent way to help some kids cope with adhd, but I
definitely don't think it'd work universally. Reading this made me think back
on my own struggle with adhd.

A few years ago I was diagnosed with adhd at the age of 23, and god damn do I
wish it happened a decade sooner, but my parents were the type that didn't
believe in that kind of stuff, so I was just lazy. It's stuck with me to this
day even, it took me a while to come to terms with it and I at times I still
think I'm lying to myself and I'm just lazy, and would never make this post on
my main account.

I first started seriously considering that it might be something other than
just laziness in college when I was studying for finals with some friends and
we decided to enhance that studying with some adderall. Everyone got super
focused, churning out work and wide awake for hours, except me. I felt pretty
much nothing different at first, and was kinda pissed it didn't work, but got
to studying anyways. The next day I was complaining to my friend about my
apparent immunity to amphetamines, and thinking back I realized it might've
had an effect after all. Instead of jumping around and doing 50 things at once
in no logical order I actually stayed more or less on one thing at a time. I
didn't get the apparent super human focus and metal boost, and it didn't keep
me awake for shit, but I got to pick what I focused on. My friend mentioned
that having that kind of reaction to stimulants might be a possible symptom of
add, but I didn't take that seriously, since everything is apparently a
symptom of add.

Later on I finally got a job with my own health insurance, and went to a
therapist for an unrelated reason. Through multiple sessions I unloaded the
story of my life, how I could never pay attention to just one thing when I was
younger, but I saw it as an advantage because I could context switch between
10 things got damn good at it. How I loved driving so much because thinking
about every other car on the road with me and predicting their actions all at
once put my mind at ease. But as I got older, the 10 things I tried to focus
on each needed a lot more focus than my rapid context switching could provide.
It had gotten to the point that holding a conversation was a troubling task
because I'd also be thinking about 10 other things and losing bits and pieces
of it.

The first time my therapist told me that I may have adhd, I was actually
insulted. I didn't want to consider the possibility that something was
actually wrong with me, I was just lazy and needed to get my shit together. I
never outwardly acted out as a kid, I wasn't hyperactive, there was no way I
could have adhd. I later realized that a lot of my outlet went into computers
instead, where for me the adhd was actually helpful.

I continued my sessions, and eventually she convinced me to see a
psychiatrist. Over a few visits he also diagnosed me with adhd. I refused to
take the prescription and ended up going to two other doctors that gave me the
same diagnoses. I finally relented and worked with my therapist and the
psychiatrist to set a plan of action. I was prescribed adderall, which I took
daily for 3 months. At the same time I also started working on behaviors and
methods to cope with it without medication. It was a night and day difference.
I remember 2 weeks in sitting in my room almost in tears thinking "is this how
normal people think all the time? They can choose? Why the fuck couldn't I
have that".

After the first 3 months I started skipping my meds for one week out of every
month to gauge how well I could deal without. It took about 7 months until I
was confident enough to go off of it, but it feels like I never did. As much
as I hate pharmaceuticals, there's no way I could've gotten to where I am
today without. I genuinely feel that I've managed to change something in my
brain to a less chaotic process. I didn't even know there was another way to
think, I thought that was normal. Sure, it's still a struggle, and I still
have my moments, but I can actually manage my life. I can decide to clean my
apartment and not end up starting 5 other projects after 20 minutes of
cleaning. The amount of shit I could have accomplished had I been able to
handle my mind a decade earlier.

Sorry for the long winded rant, but damn it feels good to actually put that
into words. I'm still ashamed in a way of it, it makes me feel "broken" I
guess, so no one but my doctors and I know and writing that was a bit of a
relief. I'm honestly not sure what my point of writing this was, other that to
say that while giving kids heavy amphetamines is probably not a great idea,
doing something to help from a young age could be massively life changing, and
if nothing else is helping, waiting too long for medication probably isn't a
great idea either.

~~~
falcolas
> but my parents were the type that didn't believe in that kind of stuff, so I
> was just lazy.

You're not the only one: I failed many high school courses because I couldn't
focus on getting the homework done. Official Parental diagnosis: Lazy $*#@.
And my mother was even trained to identify mental problems like this, but
developed a blindness to my symptoms.

~~~
greys0ul
I barely skated through highschool pretty much on test scores alone. If I
couldn't do the homework in class the day it was due, it basically didn't get
done. My sat scores managed to get me into college, which I dropped out of due
to the homework. Went to two more community colleges after that for a year
each, then another college I got a scholarship at but only made it 2 years
there before I got a good job (thank god for my interest in computers from age
6) and decided it wasn't worth it. I'm considering going back now that I've
gotten my head straight though.

~~~
sathackr
Interesting nearly simul-post. Same here, I scored 1250 on the SAT, 31 on the
ACT, and in the top 99th percentile on the CPT.

Literature/Comprehension has always been my weakness "Read the passage below,
then select what you think best describes the point the author is trying to
make" \-- they all look like right answers.

Took 18 credit-hours per semester of courses on scholarship, right out of high
school, failed all of them miserably, dropped out, goofed off for 5 years
doing whatever would make money. Got a good job that pushed me back to school,
once again got a scholarship, went for another year or two, was forced to quit
due to personal circumstances. I have two years left on my BS in Computer
Engineering, I may finish one day, but it's not very important to my current
line of work.

~~~
greys0ul
I almost didn't post my original comment as it seemed off topic, but responses
like this make me glad I did. It's good to realize I'm not alone in it.

2170/1400 on the sat, 35 on the act, not sure what the cpt is, and anything
anything writing/literature related killed me. I passed my senior english
class with a 59.5, literally as low as possible without failing. I have a
total of ~2 years of credits on my ECE BS, but work as a sysadmin/devops and
love it, if I finish my degree it'll just be something to hang on the wall.

~~~
sathackr
I had the exact same grade in English IV - barely scraping by with a D. If I
had failed that I would have been another year in school.

CPT "College Placement Test" was required by the local community college even
though I had taken the SAT and ACT.

It was not a timed test at the time, it was multiple choice, and I was allowed
to use a simple calculator. Might not have known all the right answers, but I
knew how to figure out which one was the wrong one. I think I spent 6 hours on
it. I by far scored the best on it out of all of them.

I used to be in network security for a financial institution, but I wear a few
hats now. I'm a certified tower climber and senior network engineer(That makes
the article even more relevant, half of the time I'm designing networks, the
other half of the time I'm getting sunburnt, hanging off a 500ft tall piece of
steel with a fiber cable dangling under me and a laptop on my back.) I have a
good Cisco background, MCITP(the new, now old MCSE) and can take apart and fix
nearly anything.

Thanks for your story. It would probably give away your main handle to
disclose, but I'm curious why you wouldn't want to post it under that one.

edit: fixed typo

------
lifeisstillgood
Is ADHD associated with heredity? How does one go about getting oneself tested
- if I am (and I fit a lot of symptoms) I would want to ensure my kids get the
right sort of help early.

~~~
thescriptkiddie
Yes, it appears to be hereditary, however no single gene has been implicated.
There is also no subjective test, but if you see a psychiatrist they can
usually diagnose you be asking questions about your symptoms. This can be
problematic because some insururers won't pay for amphetamines to treat a
condition that can be "faked".

------
sathackr
It's unfortunate that this type of therapy is out of reach for the majority of
kids. Not many parents have $50,000/yr of disposable income to send their
child.

I know of a child right now that something positive like this may be the
deciding factor between a productive life or a life behind bars, but the cost
is at least 50% of his parents combined income, so he will not have that
option.

------
fasteo
Slightly off-topic, but I have seem some great responses here I would like to
add a somehow controversial comment.

I have a 10 year old kid diagnosed with severe ADHD-Inattentive type. He is on
meds and behavioral therapy, and I must agree with most of the posts that meds
is a must for these kids.

My very personal an unscientific explanation is that ADHD is _not_ a disease
in the traditional sense; instead, it is just a brain that does not fit in our
current lifestyle. Would my kid have any problem living in a simpler society
(hunter-gatherer group) ? Definitively not.

From time to time I tell my wife - and she gets _very_ angry - that our kid
has a MS-DOS brain, while we are all running Windows 10. The analogy is no
exact, but it is just to emphasize that my kid belongs to another time. I only
wish he can find his place in this world.

~~~
tokenadult
_Would my kid have any problem living in a simpler society (hunter-gatherer
group) ? Definitively not._

I know some children like that. Children who cannot keep quiet while hunting
would not fare well in a hunter-gatherer society. Indeed, young members of a
hunting party who move around too much and make too much noise are in danger
of being eaten themselves by larger predator animals. I'm not sure that there
has ever been a selection advantage to having difficulty maintaining attention
focus.

~~~
SpaceCadetJones
The thing with ADHD is that the difficulty to maintain attention is often
highly situational. As someone diagnosed I personally have a lot of trouble
focusing on a lot, but when it comes to something like juggling or playing
counter-strike it's pretty remarkable how well I suddenly tune everything out
and get extremely engaged. Probably more so than a "neurotypical" person and
their preferred activities. I'm also generally hyperactive, but not impulsive.
I move around constantly at home, but in other social settings I'm able to sit
still if it's socially unacceptable for me to be walking around or fidgeting.

~~~
eric_h
Agreed. I've been a big fan of billiards for 20 years and I think a part of
the reason is that playing well basically requires very short bursts of
absolute focus, something that I'm good at. Pool is hands down the only game I
can play for 14 hours straight and not get bored/tired of playing at all.

