
Facebook removed post by ex-manager who said site 'failed' black people - hampelm
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/dec/04/facebook-mark-s-luckie-african-american-workers-users
======
aphextron
Being black in this industry really, really sucks. I'm certain that for the
vast majority of people I interact with on a daily basis, it doesn't even
cross their minds. But living with an unending fear of having your entire self
worth immediately judged at the color of your skin is something that no other
race lives with in this industry. I have to _immediately_ force myself to be
twice as charming, friendly, witty, and intelligent sounding as the equivalent
white or Asian person just to be taken seriously. I don't really know that
there's any solution to this, it's just something we have to live with.

~~~
beaconstudios
Why do you feel this is? I'm pretty sure the industry skews liberal-to-
progressive so I would assume there aren't that many racists in software
development.

~~~
jriot
This is one thing I never understood. Im conservative and race rarely crosses
my mind. Having grown up military and been in the military you perform your
duties and hang out with a range of people. Not once in my 11 years in the
military did I see race brought up. After getting out and being in tech, race
is brought up all the time that. Those who 'skew liberal to progressive' have
an unnatural obsession with race. Why is that?

~~~
untog
Race, and racism, is everywhere (note: this does not mean "everyone is
racist"). It's kind of absurd to say that it wouldn't be an issue if liberals
stopped talking about it - I suspect if you did a survey of minorities they
would very, very strongly disagree with that sentiment.

You may not see it, others may not see it, but that's why people talk about
unconscious bias a lot. You're just not attuned to it. The posts in this
thread alone should indicate to you that there are common experiences you
aren't aware of.

~~~
ThrowawayR2
> _You 're just not attuned to it._

" _Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and
recall information in a way that confirms one 's preexisting beliefs or
hypotheses._"
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias))

If you look hard enough for anything, you will find it ... whether it's there
or not.

~~~
untog
Surely you can use that quote to dismiss absolutely everything? If you see it,
it's confirmation bias. If you don't, it doesn't exist.

------
sonnyblarney
"Create internal systems for employees to anonymously report microaggressions.
"

This is the 'happy path' to ideological totalitarianism, and it's a scary
statement.

In the UC system, it is now considered a 'micro aggression' to make the
statement 'America is a Meritocracy'. Why? Because it doesn't necessarily
reflect the fact that for some people it's harder than others. Surely -
there's a lot to be debated about the statement. But that it cannot be said,
or is even considered problematic is utterly Orwellian.

The author makes the case of 'undue or overly harsh' criticism of Black
employees? Unfortunately, this is a difficult thing to measure, and if FB
turns into a 'government office' \- it simply won't be possible to give even a
fair assessment without the fear or being labelled a racist.

I'm actually quite sensitive to aphxtron's comment above about the
insecurities of being black in tech, and there is work to do ... but I think
the intersectional / authoritarian approach, especially those whereby we
'assume racism' is wrong.

I don't think the Colin Kaepernick approach is going to work on this, I think
it's just going to take a while.

~~~
eropple
_> In the UC system, it is now considered a 'micro aggression' to make the
statement 'America is a Meritocracy'. Why? Because it doesn't necessarily
reflect the fact that for some people it's harder than others_

Alternate character interpretation: the phrase "meritocracy" has turned into a
dogwhistle for white supremacists and as such its use effectively reifies a
white-supremacist position whether you mean to do so or not. As another
example: I do not think that the overwheming majority of folks who use the
term "gypped" have a problem with Romani, nut there is history and context to
that too and you can't ignore it. Or, if you'd like a more amplified example,
consider what the phrase "blood and soil" _actually refers to_.

It's not "Orwellian" to say "hey, that shit hurts people, be conscious of how
your actions affect other people." It's _polite_.

~~~
vonmoltke
> It's not "Orwellian" to say "hey, that shit hurts people, be conscious of
> how your actions affect other people." It's polite.

I think it _is_ Orwellian to declare certain words or phrases "dog whistles"
and suppress their usage based on that.

~~~
eropple
Please explain why identifying the work of white supremacists and similar
pustules as their work, and suggesting that decent people should not help them
make that work A Thing, is "Orwellian". And to be clear: we know that white
supremacists insert these phrases into the public discourse to help strengthen
their position through normalization. We know that because they _say so_. We
have the _receipts_ , from Lee Atwater to 4chan galaxy-brain chatter.

If you don't want to be thought of as a white supremacist, it's remarkably
easy not to parrot their phrases. And nobody's even saying you can't _do_ it
if you want to die on that hill. But actions have consequences, don't they?

~~~
sonnyblarney
"Please explain why identifying the work of white supremacists and similar
pustules as their work, and suggesting that decent people should not help them
make that work "

That's really easy.

The statement 'America is a meritocracy' is not remotely a phrase or statement
supporting White Supremacy.

The fact any reasonable person would try to put such an innocuous statement in
the camp of 'White Supremacy' makes me afraid.

~~~
zimpenfish
> The statement 'America is a meritocracy' is not remotely a phrase or
> statement supporting White Supremacy.

It could be if you insist that it's a meritocracy in the face of all the
evidence that it is overwhelmingly biased towards white people.

(It could equally just be an ignorant statement from a blistering ignorant
fool who hasn't done any thinking, mind.)

~~~
manfredo
> It could be if you insist that it's a meritocracy in the face of all the
> evidence that it is overwhelmingly biased towards white people

Last time I checked, Asian Americans were the wealthiest racial demographic in
the US. Does it follow that meritocracy is even more biased towards Asians
than it is towards Whites? Or, perhaps there's more to it than blanket claims
that, "it is overwhelmingly biased towards white people."?

This is what is so insidious about accusations of dog-whistling. It's a cheap
and effective way of simplifying reality and portraying the target as a straw
man.

I wonder if the right will adopt this tactic and start calling things like
"diversity initiatives" as a dog-whistling for the exclusion of conservatives.

~~~
zimpenfish
Perhaps I should have said "overwhelmingly biased against people of colour" to
be more accurate. Thanks for highlighting that.

------
kwamenum86
The first 3 comments in this thread "The Left is eating itself." "Good thing
they shielded me from that post. I don't know if I could have taken reading
that." ">ex manager >manager why would their opinion be at all relevant"

That pretty much sums up the state of the dialog in the industry and it's
pretty sad that you can't even find thoughtful comments on Hacker News.
Regardless of your politics, everyone deserves a fair shake. I'm a black
engineer and manager with experience at several tech companies, including
Facebook. At every company I've worked for I've heard jokes about African-
Americans (overheard, to my face, from managers and ICs alike) and dealt with
people assuming I'm a junior engineer at the beginning of every encounter
despite the gray hairs lining my chin. At the conclusion of my tech talks and
even technical interviews people routinely ask me if I have an engineering
background! These things may seem insignificant ("they're just jokes") but
we're social creatures want to feel recognized and accepted. That hasn't
stopped me from building a career I'm proud of and I don't lose sleep at
night. But I'm an outlier in that regard.

The larger subtext of the entire diversity conversation is learning to
coexist. It's not about black people, women, the LGBTQ community, or any other
single group. It's about a better working environment for everyone
indefinitely. Being against that is literally pathological.

Based on the quality of discourse on this site lately, I'm sure many of you
will take my words out of context and make broad assumptions about my beliefs.
For the sane ones, please reflect on the words I actually wrote.

~~~
krn
It's interesting, how much this problem is specific to the US. As someone from
a small Eastern European state, who hadn't met a single black person during
the first 18 years of his life, I had zero negative attitude towards black
people when I first met them at the university in the UK. Actually, many of
them were like friends.

~~~
bloak
But what does "black" mean in a UK context? It certainly doesn't mean the same
as what it means in the US. Or in Australia, for that matter. Different
history. Different cultures.

~~~
idontpost
While it is different, they are still discriminated against and perceived
negatively. Most "black" people in the UK are descended from afro-Caribbean
slaves. They may or may not be recent immigrants to the UK.

Given how even recent white European immigrants to the UK are treated by the
general population (see: Brexit), I would expect afro-Caribbean individuals to
not be treated much better, and have, anecdotally, heard as much.

~~~
bloak
The truth of the statement that most "black" people in the UK are descended
from ... rather depends on the applicable definition of "black". In
particular, people from the Indian subcontinent are sometimes referred to as
"black". (For what it's worth, many people in Britain with Indian ancestry
were brought up in Africa so could claim to be "real" Africans...)

I don't think it makes much sense to categorise people by skin colour. An
Afro-Caribbean doesn't in general have more in common with an immigrant from
Africa than with an immigrant from Syria or Hong Kong.

People with a different skin colour certainly do get discriminated against.
However, if you really want to get discriminated against, try dressing in the
wrong way and speaking a foreign language or with a foreign accent. In
general, people get judged by their clothing and the way they speak far more
than by any physical feature.

Perhaps it doesn't make sense to generalise across the UK, either. Afro-
Caribbeans are much more common in the London area than elsewhere. Only in
Bradford has someone made me feel like a foreigner by speaking to me slowly in
Hindi/Urdu and rolling their eyes when I fail to understand. (Quite cool, I
thought: I approve.)

------
fipple
Disappointed to see the Guardian refer to Facebook as “a tech corporation that
largely excludes African Americans.” “Excludes” implies a deliberate and
willful act which they cite no evidence for, and the editorializing is more
appropriate for the Daily Mail.

~~~
alistairSH
The Guardian didn't make that claim; Mark S Luckie made the claim.

~~~
fipple
No, it wasn’t in quotes. The Guardian should just say “paucity of African
Americans” or some statement that avoided ascribing intent.

------
EpicBlackCrayon
The post for anyone who hasn't read it.

[https://facebook.com/notes/mark-s-luckie/facebook-is-
failing...](https://facebook.com/notes/mark-s-luckie/facebook-is-failing-its-
black-employees-and-its-black-users/1931075116975013/)

~~~
bhauer
I've got that domain willfully blocked due to unrelated reasons (privacy,
etc.)

So just on the off-chance, does anyone know if the post has been reposted
anywhere else?

~~~
Jaruzel
Here you go:

[https://outline.com/RVSLKq](https://outline.com/RVSLKq)

------
mbrumlow
I hear these stories of people making racial surls and other accusations of
poor treatment of blacks at the work place.

I am shocked. I live and work in the south and have never seen anything even
remotely like this. It's almost hard to believe this occrus and HR simply does
nothing. Of the few non racial issues that HR needed to intervene in it has
always been swift removal of the offender and a company wide email.

Maybe the south is not so racist ?

Side not- bring a minority can't be a complaint. If you are a minority it is
just a fact. Being a minority and expecting to walk into a conference room and
find many faces like yours is just not an expectation anybody should have.
Even if we had a perfect representation of blacks it still is going to feel
like a sea of white in any white majority country.

------
gammateam
Sure I’ll add on to the black engineer diaspora.

I find this industry selects for and exacerbates social anxiety issues amongst
almost any demographic.

“Is this one of those circumstances where a cabal of men misunderstand my
ability to contribute to their company?”

Most experience comments I’ve read in this thread are social anxiety related.
And then people debate on the quality of that particular social anxiety issue
than the similarities of there being social anxiety at all.

My experience has been mostly positive and inclusive. But this isnt intended
to be another anecdotal data point, this is intended to highlight widespread
social anxiety.

------
trashtester
Blacks comprise about 14% of the US population, but only 1.4% of the top 1%
household income. That means that whites are about 10 times more likely to
belong to this elite. Many on the intersectional left consider this evidence
that blacks are (still) oppressed by whites.

Jews comprise about 2.5% of the US population, but about 25% of billionaires
are Jewish. That means that Jews are about 10 times more likely than non-
Jewish whites to belong to this elite. Nazis consider this evidence that there
is a Jewish conspiracy to oppress whites.

What is the difference?

(Btw, I'm not American, and in my country, there are fairly few of both blacks
and Jews, so I see this from the outside.)

~~~
manfredo
The pragmatic reality is that if a demographic has generally left-leaning
views then this absolves them of the sin of privilege. This plays out on an
individual level as well. Consider how many immensely privileged and wealthy
individuals don't get called privileged (or at least, don't get called
privileged with any significant degree of intensity) with the rationale that
their support of progressive ideals absolves them of their privilege. This is
the reason why I outwardly exaggerate support for things like discriminatory
hiring policies that favor women and URMs. If I fail to signal the right
virtues, then I will be considered (racist | sexist | *phobic) and my
professional reputation and opportunities will suffer.

------
southphillyman
This is interesting since I know of an initiative at FB that aggressively
pursued talented AA engineers. The compensation packages they were willing to
offer as part of the initiative were impressive even for FAANG. Why put that
effort forth if the environment at the company is not adequate to retain
whatever AA talent you get?

~~~
dasil003
Because neither Zuck nor any other brass at Facebook can tame the beast
they’ve created. Internal gender politics are just a microcosm of their larger
problems.

------
40acres
Slavery and the genocide of Native peoples is America's original sin. The
legacy of racist policies permeates through every aspect of American life --
Silicon Valley is NOT an exception, liberal havens are NOT an exception. North
East Portland is a traditionally black neighborhood, but now I see more "Black
Lives Matter" lawn signs that Black people.

It's not a surprise that being black at Facebook is a tough experience, as all
of us who are black in tech know. Being 2-3% of the population would be tough
for anyone to deal. Add on to that the very real notion of "micro-
aggressions". My girlfriend was delivering a presentation and a manager
literally admitted to day dreaming about which way she braided her hair that
day, it totally threw her off base. At the end of the day a majority of us who
are black in tech are dealing with death by paper cut as we try and traverse
through our careers. Employee groups have been a big help to me, all I can
recommend is to try to integrate yourself with other black employees at your
organization -- there is strength in numbers.

------
imgabe
This is the problem with putting the onus for regulating speech on Facebook.
It sounds like it'll be all rainbows and unicorns when you think it will
prevent genocide (hint: it won't), but as soon as Facebook is responsible for
removing any content that anyone, anywhere might conceivably object to
Facebook as a platform for speech becomes useless.

