
Apple Fitness+ - tosh
https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/09/apple-fitness-plus-a-personalized-fitness-experience-comes-to-life-with-apple-watch/
======
newscracker
I like the idea of Apple Fitness+. That it provides an integrated experience
with the watch and another device (iPhone/iPad/Apple TV) is exactly what I’ve
been waiting for all these years!

No need to create yet another online account on a service that may share (or
sell or probably lose) my workout and health information. The workout
recommendations are computed on-device, and the data stays on the devices
(health data is encrypted before storing on iCloud or in iTunes/Finder backups
on the Mac). This is how private I prefer it to be.

The _casual fitness market_ (for lack of a better term) is really huge. With
Apple Watch SE and the standalone yearly price (covering family members) which
seems like a great deal, this is just the beginning of another growth area for
Apple. If Apple combines fitness with fun, like Wii Fit or Ring Fit Adventure,
that’ll be the biggest worldwide fitness service ever.

I can’t wait to try this out.

~~~
jacobwilliamroy
Do you like the idea of Apple owning the operating system you use, the
computer it runs on, all the apps running on that operating system, the entire
network stack, all of the network services, the gym you visit, the money you
use, the school you attend, the church where you worship, the food that you
buy, the place where you work, the hospital where you die?

Can't you see where they're going with this?

~~~
greenpizza13
> Can't you see where they're going with this?

Can you see the slippery slope you're invoking? Apple owns the operating
system you use. That is where it stops in your example. They don't force
ownership of software, the network stack, the gym you visit (lol), where you
work, etc. Where's your head at, other than "ApPlE BaD"?

~~~
kmonsen
Right, but it is almost impossible for anyone else to compete in the
ecosystem.

If another major fitness brand wants to do the same the probably cannot
because: \- The tight integration is not possible, only Apple can build these
kind of Apple Watch experiences. \- They would need to pay Apple 30%, maybe
making this not profitable especially against Apple's own offering that can
have internal pricing where the 30% never comes into play.

~~~
clajiness
Peloton’s doing a great job, they have an Apple Watch app, and I don’t believe
Apple is getting 30% out of them. Peloton’s ecosystem is _awesome_.

~~~
kmonsen
I have a peloton bike and I love it. I also like to run with peloton outdoors,
but I can’t do that with just the Apple Watch. It seems likely the Apple will
offer something similar for their service that will work with watch only.

------
sna1l
I think Apple Fitness+ will be fine as a standalone product, but I believe
this is a stepping off point for more fully fledged fitness products from
Apple.

Using their AR technology (iPad/iPhone/etc), they can replicate a lot of the
same functionality a multi-thousand dollar product like the Tempo provides.
They can automatically correct form, recognize weights, etc.

~~~
shadowoflight
If Apple did this for home workouts I would subscribe to Fitness+ in a
heartbeat. I currently practice yoga at home, and the worst part is I don't
have an instructor to correct my form.

~~~
wellthisisgreat
You can try [https://yoganotch.com](https://yoganotch.com) \- uses motion
sensors to give feedback on yoga form

~~~
audrey21emu
Actually it takes a minute to put four sensors on and calibrate your posture
before class. I’ve used it since my gym shut down in March, and do not plan to
return there any time soon. This sensor kit with the free app with cool
classes totally transformed my practice with respect to the depth, focus and
effectiveness. Imagine having a private teacher who is paying attention to
you, measuring your posture in Asana, gives you immediate feedback and praises
you when you do it right... and it costs a fraction of $ you would pay for
your private session. None of the big fitness brands come even close to this
technologically. It’s a future of home yoga practice whether some may resist
“invasion” of tech in yoga or not.

~~~
coolioxlr
calibrate

------
slg
I wouldn't want to be Peleton, Mirror, or one of those similar companies. Is
it worth the extra $1000+ up front and $30+ monthly for the Peleton and Mirror
trainers to mention your name?

~~~
netcraft
I tend to agree, but its always amazing to me how much that seems to matter to
viewers on twitch. The entire streamer business model centers around people
paying to have someone say their name.

~~~
slg
I was just having this debate the other day on HN. Just because "saying
someones name" is the most visible return someone gets for a Twitch
subscription does not mean that is the primary or only motivating factor.
People don't donate to NPR solely because they want a tote bag. Supporting and
motivating creators is also a huge reason for donating even if it isn't a
tangible return.

~~~
oblio
You're right that it's not solely because of that. But I think it's probably
the main reason, by far. It's almost impossible to bet on human vanity and
lose :-)

------
naoru
Fitter, happier, more productive. Not drinking too much. Regular exercise at
gym, 3 times a week.

Sleeping well. No bad dreams. Less chance of illness.

~~~
vincnetas
... A pig

In a cage

On antibiotics

~~~
Austin_Conlon
Strangely enough, Apple actually ran an ad where someone said "I dutifully
oblige when the Apple Watch reminds me to stand up every hour":
[https://youtu.be/N-x8Ik9G5Dg?t=62](https://youtu.be/N-x8Ik9G5Dg?t=62).

------
antimatter15
So this must be why last week's updated "App Store Review Guidelines"
explicitly excluded "one-to-many realtime experiences". Third party fitness
apps need to fork over 30% to Apple, while they launch their own first party
competitor.

3.1.3(d) Person-to-Person Experiences: If your app enables the purchase of
realtime person-to-person experiences between two individuals (for example
tutoring students, medical consultations, real estate tours, or fitness
training), you may use purchase methods other than in-app purchase to collect
those payments. One-to-few and one-to-many realtime experiences must use in-
app purchase.

[https://developer.apple.com/app-
store/review/guidelines/](https://developer.apple.com/app-
store/review/guidelines/)

~~~
rgovostes
The 30% cut always applied to one-to-many experiences. They removed it for
one-to-one, but did not change it for other models.

~~~
freewilly1040
Sure, but now them adding this product means we have yet another vertical
where Apple has given itself an anticompetitive advantage over competitors.

~~~
yreg
The parent comment suggested that the conditions tightened, when in fact they
loosened.

~~~
freewilly1040
The parent comment doesn't suggest that the conditions tightened. They are
merely calling out that the loosening does not cover this new first party
product, and suggests this might not be a coincidence.

As this thread demonstrates, the maneuver was quite successful, if the idea
was to give the impression they are becoming less anticompetitive rather than
more so!

~~~
bredren
>rather than more so!

This is a very unusual product area for Apple. This end presumes the service
will be a success.

There is many a slip between the cup and the sip.

------
Tiktaalik
RIP local fitness instructors.

Already battered by the pandemic, a lot of them have been successfully
transitioning to an online only business model. This will make it harder.

~~~
jmull
I don’t think this would affect personal, live fitness instructors. Although
it looks the same on the surface, the value proposition is very different (as
is the cost).

You don’t make the same kind of human connection when the communication is
one-way.

Put it this way: if internet streaming was going to kill off fitness
instructors, it would have happened already. Apple isn’t doing something new
here, they’re just putting their own spin on it and vertically integrating it.

Companies doing similar services might have more to worry about, though I
think there is a lot of room to grow in this market, and i think it’s
“niche-y” by nature, so I think there’s probably plenty of room for
competitors.

~~~
cj
I wouldn't jump to those conclusions so quickly.

I'm paying my local fitness instructor $25/mo for access to a private facebook
group where she streams live classes via Facebook Live every day. The
communication is one-way (you can post comments in chat, but the instructor
can't see you). Nothing is in person.

This directly competes with my local fitness instructor who has transitioned
100% to live stream. Fitness+ is $5 more expensive than the local instructor,
but of course cheaper if they bundle that cost into Apple Music, TV, etc.

Edit: But TBH, I'll always prefer my local fitness instructor's low-quality
live streams. Something about professionally made workout videos with movie
quality cinematography is not motivating for me personally.

~~~
tomp
What's the point of having a _local_ fitness instructor if it's all streaming
online? Doesn't that open the _worldwide_ fitness instructor market (except
language), so you can just pick the best _worldwide_?

~~~
cj
> What's the point of having a local fitness instructor if it's all streaming
> online?

Human connection.

The first 5 minutes of the class are personally my favorite - the instructor
is a hilariously funny person and a great community builder.

I’ve taken a lot of fitness classes with many different instructors. From my
experience, people rarely stick with an instructor (or workout program)
because of the quality of the actual workout... they stick with it only if
they enjoy spending an hour of their day with the instructor on a personal /
social level. Most people would choose a mediocre workout with an engaging
instructor over an amazing workout with a monotone boring instructor.

------
EricE
On it's own this service isn't that compelling. As part of the new Apple One
bundle - it's actually not that much of a reach as I already am subscribed to
a few of the traditional Apple offerings - adding this wouldn't be much of a
stretch at all.

Which will be the real problem for Peloton and the other dedicated fitness
offerings out there. Bundles are powerful, even if they sometimes are on the
wrong side of the sunk cost fallacy.

------
mcintyre1994
> For usage with iPad, Fitness+ requires iPad Pro, iPad (5th generation or
> later), iPad mini 4 or later, iPad Air 2, or iPad Air (3rd generation).
> Fitness+ is supported on Apple TV 4K and Apple TV HD.

So if you don't have an Apple TV, you can't watch on a TV? That's a non
starter for me (Peloton customer), seems a bit rubbish to be exercising in my
living room and not using the TV to display the class.

~~~
joewadcan
wait... a $2,000 bike that only shows does bike workouts is fine, but a $150
device to stream entertainment and now fitness is too much? You can always
just attach a HDMI cable to your phone or tablet (via converter) if you really
want to.

~~~
mcintyre1994
No, I don't use the bike or tread, I just stream their exercise classes. I
guess I could convert from my phone to HDMI, but Peloton works in the browser
and that's a great deal easier. If I had bought a $2000 bike that only works
with Peloton then I doubt I’d even be looking at Fitness+ :)

~~~
servercobra
I have to imagine the percentage of people that can, let alone will, use a web
browser attached to their TV is <1%. I don't blame Apple for not putting
effort into it.

~~~
saghm
I don't know about that; I bought an HDMI cable and showed my 62 year old
mother how to connect it to her laptop, drag the browser over to the TV, and
then hit the "full screen" button, and she's been doing it ever since. This is
the same person who became convinced her laptop no longer had Windows Media
Player installed because she accidentally deleted the icon from her desktop.

------
yoganotch
Just wanted to take this as a chance to show what our company is doing:
[https://yoganotch.com](https://yoganotch.com) \- a smart yoga assistant,
powered by wearable motion capture (which we have been producing for a while).

just launched this year. Happy to chat with anyone who is into quantified
yoga.

P.S. I am one of the founders.

P.P.S. Saw someone mention it :)

------
ghaff
I was just listening to a McKinsey presentation last week where the speaker
went through, among other things, their data about which activities that have
largely gone digital are likely to revert.

Food-related (both online grocery shopping and home cooking) were one of the
main areas their data suggests will stay but online fitness was right up there
too.

------
benologist
I have maintained my fitness and saved so much money by switching to videos on
YouTube. I think this stuff should at most be a category on Netflix etc it's
not worth $9.99 separately. The trainers are all good, the only thing missing
is being able to superimpose your Watch metrics when you want.

------
Tiktaalik
How long until these 'fitness instructors' are animated avatars and new
fitness programs can be quickly created programmatically?

Following this perhaps programmatically created work outs can eventually be
uniquely tailored to the individual workout needs.

~~~
compscistd
Ha! I was wondering what the point of Memoji were... it’s to copy our facial
expressions or get us more used to animated faces to warm up to Memoji
instructors!

------
lawrenceyan
I wonder how Fitbit plays into this all. Can they even realistically compete
against the behemoth that Apple is at this point?

~~~
cliverani
Well, Google owns Fitbit now, so it's two behemoths going at each other.

Plus you now have Amazon coming into the market with their Halo Fitness bands.

~~~
lawrenceyan
Is that true? I thought the acquisition failed because of the EU.

~~~
cliverani
EU has set a July 20 deadline for the deal. Google and Fitbit already have
regulatory approval for the deal in the U.S.

~~~
ehsankia
Is that 2021? We're already past July 20.

------
tibbydudeza
Reminds me of all those Jane Fonda fitness videos littering homes in the 80's
... if they can somehow provide tailored experiences via AR/ML then it might
work.

------
compscistd
I tend to pass out easily from strenuous cardio exercise (I’m bad at knowing
my limits when it comes to cardio. Just about passed out _ten minutes ago_
because I pushed too hard on a treadmill/rower cycle. This is why I prefer
gradual, predictable weightlifting, a challenge during the pandemic but that’s
it’s own story).

Having metrics like heart rate, calories burned, and time remaining would show
me clearly where my body is in addition to how I physically feel _on screen_
which could be a huge help for me. Add factors like sleep tracking and I have
an even better idea of how much I can push myself before I workout.

Unrelated with this announcement: there’s a lot of value to an Apple One
bundle now (Apple TV, Music, Arcade, Fitness, News) but I have too much brand
loyalty to Spotify to switch to Apple Music and feel like I would hurt
publishers by using Apple News instead of keeping my individual news
subscriptions.

On the other hand, if they offered free 2-day shipping with Apple Pay for
Apple One subscribers at a bunch of premium retailers and bump up the price,
you’ve got the first competitor to Amazon Prime.

~~~
hombre_fatal
My buddy too thought it was normal to easily pass out from too much cardio and
eventually found out he had a serious mitral valve prolapse.

------
ogre_codes
I'm curious if this is single person only. If my wife and I do a workout
together is it only showing one person's metrics?

The plan says "Share with 5 other family members", but can we really share it?
All the demos show just a single person's metrics on the display.

I'd also like to know what it's really offering here. Is it just static videos
with generic progressions or does it work me through a progression based on my
stats? This could be a pretty cool training tool if they worked off my HR and
metrics, but if it's generic, I'm not seeing the value.

Having multi-viewer support and watch metric based progressions would make
this a killer platform. I'm pretty sure it's not going to hit that mark
exactly though.

~~~
ValentineC
> _The plan says "Share with 5 other family members", but can we really share
> it? All the demos show just a single person's metrics on the display._

If we go by how Apple's other family sharing plans work, it just lets you pay
once, for every family member (using Apple accounts based in the same country,
I should add) to use individually.

~~~
ogre_codes
This is more-or-less what I figured. Hopefully we're wrong about that, or if
so, maybe that's a good 2nd release feature. Can't believe I'm the only one
interested in doing workouts with my spouse.

~~~
kirktrue
That was the first thing I wondered about as well. I can see how making the UI
for multiple people would be trickier.

Just like in real life, multiple people working out creates accountability,
having multiple people in a home able to use it in tandem would make it much
much stickier than without.

------
hodder
For Peloton, I would worry about this becoming a platform like car play for
OEM fitness players.

~~~
idoh
Hello, sort of random, but hodder, if you read this, thanks for your tip on
metallurgical coal back in this thread -
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22069310](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22069310).
I went long on HCC after the pandemic plunge in March and it is (knock on
wood) turning out pretty nice!

------
zaroth
I feel like _community_ is the biggest factor in making these classes work,
and that’s not the same as tweeting or sharing your progress or a leaderboard.
Can you do these workouts _with_ people, or is it all on-demand?

If you’re going to nix the entire social / community aspect (having a specific
appointment where you’ve committed to train with someone can make a massive
difference).... How long until we get procedurally generated photorealistic
“studio workout” routines which dynamically analyze both your historical and
real-time capabilities and performance in order to provide an “optimal”
workout pace and progression?

~~~
hombre_fatal
What would "community" even look like in this sort product?

What's nice about community in IRL group classes is that you see the same
people every week which I don't see how you could replicate in this sort of
thing.

~~~
zaroth
Peloton has a bunch of features to try to accommodate this.

[https://blog.onepeloton.com/peloton-community-
features/](https://blog.onepeloton.com/peloton-community-features/)

------
cliverani
Apple just took a huge swing at Peloton and at home fitness startups.

Why cycle in place at home with a Peloton instructor, when you can cycle
outside with a Fitness+ instructor? Why limit yourself to your stationary
Peloton bike at home, when you can use a stationary bike anywhere?

Apple can and probability will beat out Lulu Lemon's Mirror on price using
motion capture on an AppleTV smartTV or Ipad.

Only startup that stands a chance is Tonal b/c of their hardware providing
value.

~~~
adrr
People cycle in place because it’s more convenient than going outside. Not
everyone lives near bike trails where you can continuously cycle without
having to worry about cars and traffic lights. Even on bike trails, speed is
limited to 10mph so I don’t how you can do hiit workout and keep it below
10mph.

~~~
wrycoder
Think slush and wind.

~~~
acwan93
And wildfires.

------
azhenley
So there wasn't a new iPhone announcement today?? I only saw bits and pieces
of the announcement but it seems no one is talking about this.

~~~
snissn
[https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/27/apples-
iphone-12-production-...](https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/27/apples-
iphone-12-production-delayed-report-says.html)

------
samgranieri
I think this is a wonderful idea and I'm gonna sign up for it. I don't think
I'm going to head back to my gym any time soon, so using this in tandem with
the exercise bike I just bought will be fantastic for my wife and I.

I'm not talking about the technical or monetary parts of this: I just miss my
gym and think this will be a good idea

------
mandeepj
Just like many other industries, Microsoft also had a head start in online
fitness way before anyone else even thought about it. But just like many other
lost bets, they also lose it. Not sure why they killed it. If you are
wondering what is it then search - Xbox fitness

------
hevelvarik
Pretty groundbreaking for them as a company. It’s not a core competency but
they can certainly throw enough money at the problem to get it right. This
will be the first major execution test since jobs. It’s definitely possible
this flames out entirely.

------
glaslong
Could this feed back into the Watch’s automatic calorie and exercise tracking?
Fitness+ shows an instruction, watch logs the sensor data that follows it;
seems like a good way to expand their data set.

------
suyash
The best feature I liked was real time data being shown on TV/Phone that was
synced to the watch so you don't have to look at two screens, just one. Music
was a nice bonus.

------
kristianpaul
This service it is a good start But definitely need to be complemented with ML
vision technologies to detect bad postures and correct people movements during
the workout for sure.

------
mleonhard
$150 Apple TV HD

$200 Apple Watch Series 3

So it's $350 + $10/mo. Do they plan to compete with Mirror ($1500 + $42/mo)
and Peloton ($1900 + $13/mo)?

------
theshrike79
Dunno why this had to be region-locked, it's not like people outside of the US
can't speak english.

------
1023bytes
No Mac support is unfortunate for me

~~~
reaperducer
With the way Apple is porting iOS apps to macOS, it might be in the works.

------
Dahoon
Encroaching on even more territory, using its market position to strangle
other businesses.

------
davidtranjs
Just like Google, Apple is trying to making money from every possible
opporturnity.

------
varispeed
So you have to pay for a watch that collects your data? Furthermore the watch
is likely full of proprietary chips - which is fine if you could buy those. If
"your" watch goes bad, only Apple will be able to repair it and for sure their
charge you adequately. And you give your data for free.

~~~
dieortin
Why is paying for a watch that collects your data weird to you? Your phone
also collects your data and I bet you paid for it too.

Also, the watch collecting your data is kind of the whole point.

------
tosh
product page: [https://www.apple.com/apple-fitness-
plus/](https://www.apple.com/apple-fitness-plus/)

------
jungletime
Avoid indoor air pollution, just buy a Kayak and Rollerblades and your summer
fitness plan is covered. Winter $20/month gym membership and a pair of skates
will beat this too.

------
axihack
I miss the geek-ish, designer-ish old Apple.

------
bitxbit
I think Apple ran out of ideas guys.

~~~
lmedinas
i doubt... even if this service is a flop most likely it will still be
profitable and again Apple is on the way to smash the competition in their own
walled garden.

This goes into straight competition with 80% of the fitness apps has it
provides yoga, HIIT, bike etc... etc... fully integrated into Apple devices
plus if you buy the new Watch you get 3 months for free. Bingo.

How is Apple running out of ideas to get even more money on services ?

------
alexashka
This fitness service is only available on Apple hardware devices.

The vendor lock-in continues...

------
pier25
They could have made this service a couple of years ago. Why now?

I don't think it's a coincidence they announced this now in the midst of
COVID. Apple has privileged AppStore data which it can use to identify trends.
Then it can just throw a pile of money at making an even better product, with
premium integration in the Apple ecosystem, and finally destroy the
competition.

I guess it can be argued this may be better for the customer.

~~~
samatman
You are incorrect about the time frame on which Apple operates.

The working groups for this offering were forming in late 2018 at the absolute
latest.

~~~
pier25
Maybe I'm wrong on the COVID thing, but it can't be denied Apple has access to
privileged AppStore information much like Amazon does on its store.

~~~
samatman
This is so commonplace as to have a name: when Apple does this, we say that
the app or apps got "Sherlocked".

[https://www.howtogeek.com/297651/what-does-it-mean-when-a-
co...](https://www.howtogeek.com/297651/what-does-it-mean-when-a-company-
sherlocks-an-app/)

~~~
pier25
Yes, I'm aware what "Sherlocked" is. :)

My point is not only about Apple copying products, but about having access to
privileged AppStore data.

------
sleavey
What I dream of is a health monitor watch that's built from open hardware and
gives me complete control over and ownership of my data. I don't trust any
profit-driven company, even Apple, with such private information.

EDIT: thanks to obenn, who pointed me towards [1]. Still in development, but
looks promising.

[1] [https://www.pine64.org/pinetime/](https://www.pine64.org/pinetime/)

~~~
EricE
Since privacy is a key differentiator for them (huge financial incentives to
actually deliver and not just pay lip service), and there are significant
penalties waiting for them if they are lying about protecting privacy (as well
as plenty of people who would love to call them out on it), Apple is probably
the most trustworthy of any organization if you care about privacy. Also you
can keep your data local with Apple hardware - it's encrypted and only
available to your hardware - obviously a lot of the functionality they
profiled today doesn't work if you take that stance, but it is an option.

~~~
damnyou
Imagine believing this after seeing Apple's consistent lying about iMessage
being "end-to-end encrypted": [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-
icloud-exclusiv...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-
exclusive/exclusive-apple-dropped-plan-for-encrypting-backups-after-fbi-
complained-sources-idUSKBN1ZK1CT)

~~~
tpetry
Oh it‘s end-to-end encrypted. Whether the received and decrypted message on
the iphone is saved end-to-end encrypted in a backup is another topic...

------
nbzso
My personal view: If this is Apple - I cannot recognize my self in their
target demographics anymore. Those people presenting “awesome, magical,
groundbreaking” things are saying boring corporate memos with a slight
difference - they are shot cinematically. In a process of watching, another
realization manifested itself in my mind. I use Apple products only because of
MacOS. But looking at how things are progressing in Cupertino may be is time
for transition to Linux. Fitness service? Whats next? Mind reading for family?
Put your animoji on your forehead? I miss Steve Jobs badly. Obviously:)

------
king_magic
While I'm certainly annoyed that this is a blatant ripoff of so many services
out there already - more than anything, it just looks like a real snoozefest
of a product. Beyond that, where does the App Store insanity stop? Is Apple
going to pull a Fortnite and kick exercise apps off next for "duplicating core
Apple products"?

~~~
filoleg
>Is Apple going to pull a Fortnite and kick exercise apps off next for
"duplicating core Apple products"?

That's not what Fortnite got kicked out for, and I think it is unfair to
pretend otherwise.

Also, they didn't kick out Spotify or other music streaming services after
introducing Apple Music, so I don't see that happening here either.

~~~
king_magic
Yes, I know that’s not explicitly what Fortnite was kicked off for. But let’s
be honest here and look at Apple’s long history of anticompetitive behavior -
that’s the core concern here, and Apple has shown a clear willingness to
disadvantage 3rd party competitors.

Sure, Spotify is on the App Store - but when will I be able to download music
and play it directly from my Watch with Spotify? Likely never - Apple simply
will not allow that, while hypocritically allowing it with Apple Music.

So let’s not pretend - Apple cares about Apple first and second, and everyone
else third.

~~~
rp1229
I'm pretty sure the Spotify limitation is due to Spotify and not Apple. Other
apps like overcast can download to audio to the watch and play without a
phone.

~~~
king_magic
To be clear - I'm talking about playing audio in the background, like Apple
Music. That, as far as I know, has never been made available to third party
app developers. And even if Apple has finally allowed Spotify the Great
Privledge of joining Apple on it's playing field, it would have taken multiple
years of complaints and hypocrisy from Apple to get there.

