
Interviewing for startups : are formal cover letters + suits necessary, neutral, or harmful? - magus_pwnsen
When one is applying to a startup of less than 20 people, is it necessary to use a formal cover letter, or will a simple, polite email do? I dislike cover letters because they feel extremely artificial. In my CL template, I end up talking about how, in high school, I woke up at 5:00 am to practice for contest math tests (e.g. USAMO). It makes me sound impressive and hard-working to HR people, but as I'm 25 and that was in HS, this sort of detail is completely irrelevant to whether or not I can write code.<p>Also, is it a good idea to wear a suit for a startup interview, or is this over-the-top or absurd? I'm afraid that overdressing might make it appear like I don't know how to interview for startups or, worse yet, type-cast me as similar to the species of douchebag college kid that generally applies for I-banking positions.<p>If it's not necessary to use cover letters and wear suits for startups, the next question is: where does one draw the line? How does one determine in advance whether or not an interview necessitates a suit?
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cperciva
_In my CL template, I end up talking about how, in high school, I woke up at
5:00 am to practice for contest math tests_

Take that out. It doesn't matter what sort of job you're applying for -- the
words "high school" should never appear in the resume or cover letter of
anyone who has a college degree.

As for the rest: Dress like the job you want to have, not like the job you're
applying for. If I was applying for a management position at a bank (not that
I can imagine why I'd ever do that, but hypothetically...) I'd still turn up
for an interview wearing a t-shirt and jeans. If my apparel wasn't up to
standard, that would be an indication that the job I was applying for wasn't
actually a job I wanted -- and being not offered the job would simply save me
the trouble of quitting after a few weeks.

~~~
tc7
"Dress like the job you want to have, not like the job you're applying for."

Very nice. Put into words my vaguely-formed concept of why I won't be pulling
out the suit for future interviews.

For interviews, the best advice I've heard is to remember that you're
evaluating them as much as they are you. If they demand/care that you dress a
certain way, perhaps it's a good sign you don't want to work there (unless
you're into that kind of thing).

I have read posts that hint at a bit of hypocrisy in startups, though: "We
wear t-shirts because clothes don't matter, but if you wear a suit you're
unfit for startup hacker life." Bear that in mind if you really LOVE wearing
suits. :P

~~~
johnyzee
> "We wear t-shirts because clothes don't matter, but if you wear a suit
> you're unfit for startup hacker life."

That puts into words my vaguely-formed concept of why I defiantly wear dress
pants and expensive shirts (+ suit and tie for interviews) even when working
at a tech startup with 20-somethings in (carefully chosen) worn jeans and
t-shirts.

If clothes don't matter, why am I being judged because I value aesthetics, not
excluding the clothes I wear?

~~~
icky
> If clothes don't matter, why am I being judged because I value aesthetics,
> not excluding the clothes I wear?

Because they _do_ matter. The function of any level or style of dress at an
interview is to mark you as part of the Right Group. This holds true even when
the interviewers don't realize that they're unconsciously doing it.

Overdressing for an interview at some companies can put you in the Wrong Group
just as surely as underdressing will at others.

~~~
IsaacSchlueter
The last time I wore a tie at work was my job interview.

You should always dress nicer for the interview than you expect to for the
job. It has nothing to do with impressing the interviewer. I wore a tie to my
interview because it made me feel important, which made me feel more
confident, which made me come across as a more compelling candidate.

Use whatever tools you have to manipulate yourself into being the person (at
least temporarily) who easily gets the job you want.

------
tptacek
Suits harmful (although only nominally). The suit says, "I mostly interview at
places where suits matter".

Cover letters extremely valuable. Cover letter says, "I gave your company 5
minutes of thought before I clicked the button that sent my resume".

Best possible thing you can do prior to an interview? As in, the single best
possible thing you can ever do that will raise your chances more than anything
else you do? Research the company. Hardcore. Everyone who worked there,
everything those people have done, and on and on. Come in knowing everything
about them, and armed with a litany of questions.

#1 criteria for hiring: smart, gets things done, competant.

#2 criteria for hiring: committed to working _here_.

~~~
ajross
It depends. Certainly a suit is never going to be helpful when interviewing at
any true technology company, whether it be a startup or not. But the idea that
it would _hurt_ is situational: certainly if a mid-career professional walks
into an interview in a $500 suit, his/her attire just screams "I've been
writing VB code for 10 years in an IT department."

But if it's on a recent graduate, or an amateur trying to break into hacking
as a profession, not so much. There, it's just a sign of naivete. It's cute,
not dumb. It might be awkward, but at least it shows the candidate cares about
the position.

~~~
tptacek
You are never going to get ruled out of a good job for wearing a suit. You can
get ruled out of a lot of really crappy jobs for not wearing a suit. So, OK.
But you are always safe in business casual. And you can adapt on the fly,
untucking your shirt if everyone else is in cutoffs and Birks.

------
gleb
These things depend on location. Where are you? Here's how things work in SV.

Cover letter is exceptionally useful. It should explain in simple English why
you are qualified for this particular job, highlighting relevant experience
and showing that you actually bothered to figure out what this job/company is
about. Doing this well is a huge advantage. At your level 1 out of 100
applicants will do it right. Cover letter should be just natural part of the
body of the email and be in plain text. It should not be formal.

Suit with no tie is appropriate if you are interviewing for a job of CEO. Suit
with a tie is never appropriate. This is different on east coast.

~~~
magus_pwnsen
I'm in New York, where dress is a bit more formal due to the Wall Street
sphere of influence. However, the position I have in mind has nothing to do
with finance.

What defines a good and bad cover letter, in your opinion? What mistakes do
the writers of the 99 bad cover letters make?

~~~
maximilian
Although I can't say for sure (never hired anyone), I think the notes above
about "Relevant experience" really hits it on the nail. Resume's have a lot of
info on them, and are often short on details. You should explain to them what
you've done that makes you ideal for that specific role. Don't talk about your
life dreams, just keep it simple and direct.

On what to wear: Dress smart. If it seems like a fun place, dress a bit fun.
In NYC, a nice pair of jeans, with a sharp shirt and jacket would probably be
a really appropriate attire. I don't think i'd ever show up for an interview
with just a t-shirt on, but i guess it depends.

------
hunterjrj
You'd do well to wear a suit to any job interview. Programmer or not, startup
or not, walking into an interview in a suit conveys a sense of
professionalism. First impressions are hard to change. So start off well.

Also, I'd take the advice of those who who say "Wear sandals and a t-shirt"
with a grain of salt - I suspect that the majority of people who give that
advice are not (and haven't ever been) in a position to hire.

~~~
timr
You're assuming that a suit always provides a good impression. That's not
automatic, especially if you're interviewing at a small, casual company that
is trying to maintain a specific kind of casual, fun work culture.

Like, say...a startup.

~~~
hunterjrj
Work for a startup. Second startup actually, both successful. Wore a suit to
both interviews. Results paint a pretty clear picture.

Even companies looking to maintain a casual, fun work culture should
appreciate their candidates attempting to present themselves in a professional
way. If an interviewer casts someone in a negative light _because_ they wore a
suit... I'll go out on a limb and risk getting flamed by saying that this
person probably shouldn't be responsible for hiring in the first place.

~~~
emmett
We haven't had many people show up in suits to interviews at Justin.tv, but
it's a reasonably accurate indicator of failure. I try not to prejudge, but
there's only so many times you can see a correlation and not start to
stereotype.

------
aantix
As for the suit, you're a developer, not a consultant for What Not to Wear.
The real tragedy is when the developer shows up for the interview in his (so-
called) nice button up shirt (that has a small gravy stain on the pocket) and
polished (yet orthopedic looking) black shoes.

The suit gains you 5 seconds of respect until you open your mouth. Then
hopefully you will actually know something.

Do yourself a favor; instead of taking an hour the night before to make sure
your shirt is pressed and your socks match get on the web, research the
company you are interviewing at, try to assess some of the problems that they
may encounter, study up on the languages that they utilize, review your
algorithms book, and treat the interview like you're applying for the lead
position for the development of an auto-pilot software system for a Boeing
787.

If you know your field and know it well superficialities such as a wrinkled
shirt will take a back seat.

------
edw519
"I dislike cover letters because they feel extremely artificial."

Then make yours natural. Write like you speak and say what you want to say.

"is this over-the-top or absurd"

A suit is _never_ absurd, except at the beach. When in doubt, overdress. You
can always take off your jacket (and tie).

And don't forget the handwritten and sincere Thank You Note.

~~~
nradov
Handwritten thank-you note? I do a lot of interviewing and would find it
bizarre and annoying if a candidate sent me something by snail mail. Only a
fax would be worse.

~~~
edw519
I find it bizarre and annoying that you find a handwritten thank-you note
bizarre and annoying. Have we gotten so immersed in technology that we've
forgotten how nice it is when someone goes out of their way to show a little
appreciation? I sure hope not.

------
corentin
Basically, there are two kinds of companies: the ones that do care about dress
code, and the ones that don't. The first kind would like you to wear a suit
(with a tie). For the second kind: well, since they don't care, you can wear a
suit as well! In this way, you can't go wrong (I've never encountered a
company requiring people to wear used jeans and Rock band shirts anyway).

~~~
mlinsey
Well, unless you get interviewed by this guy:

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwYy8R87JMA>

------
swivelmaster
I've never interviewed in a suit, and I've been offered every job I've managed
to get to the interview stage for. The most I've worn is formal shirt, slacks,
nice shoes, and a tie, and that was once for a temp agency (and it was
probably too much), another time for an event production company (it was
DEFINITELY way too much), and a video game QA company (I could have worn less
but it didn't seem to matter).

The event production company was pretty close to being a startup, and it was
clear from the moment the door opened and I saw the place and the employees
that I was overdressed.

I don't remember what I wore to interview for the video game company I worked
for a few years ago, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't too fancy. If I was
interviewing for a startup with less than twenty employees, I'd be pretty
comfortable showing up in jeans and a collared shirt of some sort.

------
rms
The rule I typically follow is to go one level of dress beyond whatever the
typical dress for the company is. So if it is a startup where people would
normally wear geeky black shirts with witty sayings on them, wear jeans and a
polo shirt or a dress shirt, or even no-tie business casual at your
discretion.

If the dress is normally no-tie business casual, wear business casual with a
tie or a suit if that makes you feel comfortable. You definitely don't have to
wear a suit for an engineering interview, you can wear a shirt and tie and no
jacket.

So I would ask the HR person who scheduled your interview what people/the boss
normally wear to work, then go one level higher in dressiness where one level
higher is a fluid concept based on your personal comfort level.

------
xenoterracide
In the last job I applied for they dismissed a candidate because he showed up
in tshirt and jeans.

In a previous job I applied for (electricians helper) they wouldn't hire you
if you applied in a suit.

I believe in both jobs business casual was fine. It really depends on the
interviewers though.

If I were interviewing you and you weren't wearing business casual I might ask
why, but that's me. The reason I would ask why is it will give me insight to
your personality, and circumstances. You might be having a tough break, you
might enjoy wearing suits, or you might think appearances don't matter.

------
rcoder
Your cover letter _is_ your introductory email. (You're not attaching a PDF or
anything, are you?) It should be conversational, well-edited, and concise, but
should give the reader some reason to continue on to the resume.

As for when to start culling old info from your resume: I think you have the
right idea in thinking that you should stick to those points that are directly
relevant to the position. Padding your experiences and skills with high school
activities may help when you're fresh out of school and have little or no
professional background to reference, but if you've had even one full-time job
in the industry, drop the kid stuff.

I haven't been on the interviewee side in a while, but from the interviewer
POV, I personally like to see that applicants have made an effort to
anticipate the office culture and dress appropriately. Seeing someone in a
suit + tie when interviewing in a room full of people wearing T-shirts
suggests to me that perhaps they aren't great at prediction based on
incomplete information, and instead chose to "play it safe." That can be a
desirable attribute in some positions, but it doesn't speak well of their
ability to empathize.

If you want to find out whether you're going to get dinged for not going
formal with your interview attire, do some research. Check the 'About Us' or
'Staff' page on the company website, or check out staff members' blogs and
Flickr photos. Maybe on of the senior staff have presented at a conference
recently, or podcasts from their office?

------
webwright
Most of the advice here is bad, IMO. It reminds me of the 'build it and they
will come-- marketing, messaging, and salesmanship doesn't matter" advice you
see from a lot of neophyte product developers.

Find out who you're interviewing with and learn about the company. Founded by
a hacker or MBA? Are they casual at work or no? Do they like golf or D&D? A 20
person company should be quite google-able-- learn about your audience. Hell,
find an excuse to drop by and look around.

A bit of research and salesmanship isn't a bad thing. You can call something a
"steak" or you can call it a "muscle tissue sample from a castrated bull"
(apologies to Robert Heinlein) -- which sounds better to you? There are great
studies that indicate that the more you look like a person, the more they'll
trust you. You don't have to be totally fake, but you can choose wisely within
your wardrobe.

In terms of CV and cover letter, again-- do the research. If the reader has an
MBA, err on the side of a bit more traditional. If he/she is an anthropology
school dropout whose blog is vulgar and fun, be a bit more casual.

And-- what's wrong with asking questions? Call and say, "the places I'm
considering positions at run the gamut between casual and formal in terms of
attire. What's your company like on that front? If I wear slacks and a dress
shirt to the interview, am I going to be the sharpest dressed person in the
office?"

------
icey
First off, definitely use a cover letter. Don't use your template, write
something specifically about why you want _this_ job at _this_ company. Be
sincere.

With regards to a suit; here's what I've always done. I suppose it's a little
risky, but it's always been fantastic for me.

Call the company you're interviewing, at whatever public number you find.
Hopefully you get a receptionist, or at least someone gabby. Tell them that
you're coming in for an interview, and you'd really like to dress
appropriately - so instead of asking for advice, ask what their boss is
wearing that day. If the answer is slacks and a button-up shirt (short-sleeved
or not), then you're going to wear a coat and tie for the interview. If the
answer is jeans, then you're going to wear slacks, polished shoes and a button
up shirt.

You don't have to be shy about this, companies really like to know that you
give a shit about what they think. It definitely shows when I'm interviewing
with someone who knows why they want to work with us versus someone who just
wants a paycheck.

------
brk
The only universal rule is that there is no universal rule...

Companies, at any stage, are made up of a (semi)random collection of
individuals. You can hardly predict their expectations, likes, dislikes, and
expectations accurately.

Dress-code wise, I would say dress in whatever YOU feel most comfortable in.
When in doubt err on the side of over-dressing, but for almost any "hacker"
type role you would never go beyond a sport-coat (possibly with nice jeans and
a dress shirt). As someone who has interviewed many people I would say that
one thing that seems to negatively affect the dynamics of the interview is
when you can tell the person is just not comfortable (and therefore not
themself).

Along the lines of not being able to predict how people view your CV, I
personally would rather see blank space on a resume instead of blather about
what you did in high school or college, which is almost never relevant to what
I am interested in. I also personally don't like people who send the followup
emails of "It was such a great interview I can totally see myself making a
huge contriblahblahblah". Save it, I get enough air-filled emails already, I
don't need yours.

Despite what many people might say, there are a LOT of jobs out there. Wear
what you want, and handle the process (cover letter, resume, follow-up)
however you feel is most appropriate, and iterate rapidly over the feedback
(or lack thereof) to adjust your approach.

Personally, I like a brief 2-3 paragraph high-level cover letter that is
targeted to the specific job (matches your skills to my requirements) and a
resume that is readable and underscores key accomplishments. Dress decent, no
matter what position you're interviewing for (if you're at a startup you might
have to present to a board or potential customer one day. Having a "nice" set
of clothes is a good sign of preparedness, IMO).

------
ojbyrne
Having come up against the dress code issue recently - the standard advice is
to make your best guess about the dress code hierarchy and dress one level
higher than the job you're applying for.

The covering letter should be seen as the chance to make an argument as to why
you're the right person for this specific job. You shouldn't really have a
template for your covering letter.

------
KB
I was just hired by a startup and I provided a cover letter along with my
resume. In fact it was mentioned to me that my cover letter was part of the
reason I was brought in for an interview. Cover letter's don't have to contain
all of the regurgitated crap you find on resume help sites. Its a great way to
get a lot of the finer points across that your resume simply can't. Be sure
that every cover letter (like your resume) is tailored to the particular job
and company you are applying to. Nothing looks worse than a cookie cutter
cover letter where someone can easily tell you just swapped out the hiring
manager's and company's name.

On top of that... I wore a suit to the interview. I was on the fence on
wearing it or not, but when in doubt its always better to be over dressed.

------
ig1
When you phone them up to arrange an interview time, _ask them about the dress
code_. Problem solved.

~~~
pjackson
I interview a lot of people. When candidates ask me this, they often say "I'm
coming from work, and I don't want to over-dress and tip them off that I am
interviewing. May I dress casually?"

I never say "no." This is always acceptable to me.

------
mkull
dress for your interview one-tier above the formality of dress the company you
are applying to wears.

if the company standard is business casual - wear a suit if everyone is in
shorts / tshirts - wear slacks and a shirt with a collar

~~~
byrneseyeview
And what if you're applying to Morgan Stanley or something? Do you wear a tux?
A Pope outfit?

------
windupbirdx
In a discussion with an older lawyer, I was told that dressing well
demonstrates your respect for the people you are meeting with. I personally
feel that things have become more complicated as dress, in general, has become
more casual but I'm not certain where the line lies between dressing down and
disrespect.

I've always worn a suit to interviews in the Midwest and East Coast. Once in
New York (at a startup) I was told after being hired that they were concerned
that I might be too stiff and strait-laced because of the suit. I did get the
job, however, and I would still wear a suit interviewing there.

On the West Coast, I might go with a suit for big companies, but I'd go button
down and khakis for a small company or a startup. It's a different culture.
Even the better restaurants rarely require formal attire, and I feel like a
suit at some interviews would show an inability to grasp the cultural
differences.

------
hooande
I've done a fair amount of hiring at startups. The main thing I looked for was
years of experience and previous job title. I never cared what the person
wore, as long as it was appropriate. A cover letter was nice, but I didn't use
it as a filter...I was more concerned with the information contained in the
cover letter than whether or not it was there.

The biggest thing is to give people information about you. The math contest
thing would stand out because it's unique and somewhat interesting, but it
wouldn't be particularly important for any of the positions I hired for. I was
far more impressed by previous job titles (ie, "Intern, Google Inc") than I
was any of the extracurricular stuff.

If you don't have any previous experience, the most important things are an
impressive GPA (3.8+) or some kind of impressive course work, such as an
artificial intelligence project or ideally a startup of your own.

------
bbgm
I've interviewed people a bit. While I might wear jeans and t-shirts to work,
if an interviewee does not have the decency to dress smartly (maybe not a
suit, but at least business casual) for an interview, here is the question
that would come to mind. If this job isn't important enough to this person to
at least look professional, how important is it going to be after the person
starts?

So dress smartly. Most companies I've been to let you know that they don't
require suits if that is the case, but don't go below business casual.

As for cover letters, throw out the template. Every job is different and there
has to be a reason you're interested. Right that down and do it honestly. If
you feel you have to just cause you have to, chances are that it isn't worth
it.

------
petercooper
The clothing is just a facade, what really counts is how you act. As such,
going fully suited is the best policy, but feel free to customize it a bit.. a
slightly informal tie, a quirky jacket, perhaps. You need to look like you've
made an effort.

Once you're in and they get a good first impression, then lead with your
personality. If you're an interesting person but you don't get the job because
you're dressed too formally, you clearly didn't use your personality.. because
while first impressions can be made by dress, the impression made ten minutes
into an interview should have been driven 99% by the PERSONALITY of the
interviewee.

Use the suit to get the first impression, use your personality for the rest.

------
grag
At a startup I worked for they almost dismissed a candidate because he showed
up in a suit for an interview. It apparently showed that he didn't understand
the kind of company he was interviewing for. So it really depends on the
culture of the company.

------
bluelu
It depends on you. Wear what you feel the most confortable with. If you are
genuinely interested in working in that company and you have a nice CV, it
doesn't matter if you turn up in a suit or not. You are not yet working for
them, so you don't have to obey their rules. But you must fit into that image.
Don't forget that you are evaluating them as well.

I never wear a suit when interviewing (jeans, tshirt) and at a career day at
one of the larger consulting companies, I was the first to get the job. But
they said I would be obliged to wear a suit when I would work for them, as I
would travel often to clients, which is a fair deal, as everybody else does.

------
nradov
My company is somewhat larger and older than your target, but probably still
similar. When deciding who to interview I don't even read the cover letter (if
any). Instead I just skim through the resume and if the candidate seems to
have some sort of reasonable software development background then I'll arrange
a phone screening interview. The phone screen is where I make the decision
about who to bring in for a real interview. If the candidate turns out to be
completely unqualified then I can cut it off after a few minutes, no great
loss.

As far attire, it's also irrelevant to me. Just don't show up in anything
wildly inappropriate.

------
timcederman
I interviewed for my current position at a startup with a tie and I don't
think it detrimentally affected me whatsoever.

That said, a polite, to the point email is awesome. A collared shirt is all
you need for an interview, although we hire people who turn up in t-shirt and
shorts.

I'd try to get a vibe from the people you speak with there. Also ask yourself
if you want to work somewhere they expect a suit...

------
gojomo
A cover letter that's actually responsive to the position/company is a giant
win. But also, a polite email with that same info counts as a "cover letter".
("Cover letter" describes the role it plays introducing you, not the
formalities of delivery/medium.)

------
tlrobinson
At any startup I would want to work for wearing a suit would _at best_ be
neutral.

~~~
boucher
At any startup I would want to work for, wearing a suit would _at worst_ be
neutral.

~~~
tolmasky
i work at the same startup as tlrobinson and boucher. wearing a suit here
would be neutral.

------
adnam
Save the suit for weddings and funerals.

------
LPTS
I guess it depends on the job, but I can't stand people in suits. It's so
obsolete now. That kind of tired attention to surface conformity only
encourages the same old thinking that is responsible for everything sucking.
Wear what is comfortable and looks decent. The sooner the puritanical idea
that you have to dress yourself in that ridiculous, uncomfortable costume and
prance around like some peacock samurai in full ceremonial garb to be a
serious job applicant dies, the better off we will all be.

Don't view the cover letter as artifical. View it as the HR guy will spend two
minutes looking at it while waiting for his internet porn to download. What do
you have to say about yourself that is so compelling he'll not notice when two
minutes pas and his porn finished downloading because he's still looking at
your resume. I'll give you a hint, it's not that you wake up early.

~~~
sspencer
You can't stand people in suits? Why do you even care?

Let actions speak rather than clothes. I've known programmers who wore
fastidiously cut suits and programmers who wore birks and cutoffs. Both
clothing classifications produced fast, capable, flexible programmers who
could think on their feet, and both classes also produced morons who couldn't
code their way out of a paper bag.

Look beyond the surface and you will end up hiring a much higher quality
programmer.

~~~
LPTS
You are right, I was wrong. I was overly rhetorical.

If you like to wear suits, by all means. Sometimes a really nice button down
shirt and nice pants feels good.

What really gets me is mandatory dress codes that don't have anything to do
with the work getting done, and the outdated thinking that wearing nice
clothes means anything. If that's how you are comfortable, please.

