
Ask HN: Never been fired, what should I know before I fire someone? - orangepenguin
I personally have never been fired or laid off. I&#x27;m now in a position to recommend a course of action for an employee with performance problems. In the future, I will likely be left to make such decisions entirely on my own.<p>On the practical side, it seems pretty cut and dry. I should communicate with the person about performance problems (and expected changes) clearly and repeatedly. If things don&#x27;t improve in a reasonable amount of time, having the person around isn&#x27;t helping the business. Time to end it.<p>However, I feel like I would be devastated to lose a job in this way, so I feel sympathy. I know change is hard and takes time. I also know that letting someone go can affect morale on the team. Is it better to just pay the cost and keep the person around?<p>How do you decide when it&#x27;s time to let someone go?
======
rutledjw
\- Keep it objective. Use NOTHING that cannot be backed with facts. This is
both for the individual AND your team.

\- Let HR do their job. Frankly, they should handle 80% of this at a minimum

\- KISS - don't add any detail, nuance, courtesy-ANYTHING. Just get it done

How to decide? Keep that simple too:

\- are they doing the job? If they're falling short, they are owed a number of
chances with honest, objective feedback and equal opportunities to improve.
The number of chances depends on you and your HR policies

\- are they present? People who don't show are more likely to get canned by me

\- Do they trigger the a __hole clause? I do NOT tolerate a __holes, they
disrupt the team, any business partners and anything else. I don 't care how
good they are, these I'm most aggressive about getting rid of, although in 20+
years, only 2 triggered that one. Both were superb technically, interestingly
and sadly

In the end, if I fire someone, they've earned it. I will work VERY hard and
patiently with someone who is legitimately trying. Even the most average coder
can meet certain standards in my experience - maybe never great, but good.
Only the first firing was tough, and he DEFINITELY earned it. Don't overthink
this.

~~~
twoquestions
What worker's paradise do you live in that people get notice or feedback
they're getting fired?

In every professional job I've had, if they like you they give slightly
negative performance reviews and never mention what you do right, to encourage
you to focus on their weaknesses and to encourage a healthy skepticism in your
own abilities to keep you from having the confidence to look around.

If they want to get rid of you, they'll give glowing reviews. The business has
judged you'll never get better, so no harm in letting you have excessive
confidence. Also, when the shot comes, it comes like a bolt from the blue, so
everyone else (who had worse reviews) knows the sword of Damocles is hanging
over their head, and there's cause to can even the top performers at any time.

To the OP: if you're considering the person to be at all more important than a
shop machine or raw materials, you're doing good, and I laud your compassion.

~~~
orangepenguin
This is interesting. I haven't experienced the type of performance reviews you
mention, but I can see how it might happen.

------
sixtypoundhound
So after several rounds on both sides of the table... (being fired and getting
laid off / "selectively eliminated"):

\- Communicate the bare minimum and hand the person off to an un-involved
third party (HR or admin type) to handle the rest of the process. This is not
a place for a running debate about the merits of the firing.

\- For the sake of the employee, never communicate this on any kind of
moralizing basis (eg. you lost this job due to your character failings). They
will heal much faster if they can process this as a "lack of fit with the
organization". The former can spark some serious self-doubt...

\- Either check up on them in a few days (purely personal call) or have a
trusted third party check in on them.

~~~
orangepenguin
I'm reminded of a clip from the movie Moneyball:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTjhHrcyiQI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTjhHrcyiQI)

I really like your suggestion that someone check in with the person in a
couple days. That helps address the charitable desire without compromising the
need for performance at work.

------
DoreenMichele
One of my teammates was fired. Every time I had to work his files when he had
a day off, I was tearing my hair out over his incompetence and sheer laziness.
After they let him go, I spent another six months cleaning up messes he left
behind, but was happy he was at least gone.

 _However, I feel like I would be devastated to lose a job in this way, so I
feel sympathy._

Actions speak louder than words. Some people just don't really get the memo
that they need to change until there are serious consequences.

Alternately, some people end up freed up to go do something else entirely with
their lives and are happier for it.

People can be a hodge podge of various things. There is no one size fits all
answer here.

~~~
orangepenguin
Maybe the stress of the workload isn't good for the employee either.

~~~
DoreenMichele
They may want to quit, but feel they can't because their spouse, parent or
someone else wouldn't approve. They may want to do something else, but not
have the energy and mental focus after working all day to successfully start
something else.

I spent years trying to figure out how to make money in an entrepreneurial
fashion. As long as it was a side gig while I was a homemaker or corporate
employee, I couldn't figure it out. It was a different mental model from what
was paying my bills and I couldn't figure out what on Earth I was doing wrong.

I figured it out once I quit and needed the money to literally eat. I still
don't make tons, but it's no longer just completely mystifying and unsolvable.

Jeph Jacques, author of _Questionable Content,_ was fired and had a part-time
web comic. He began selling tshirts via his web comic to help make ends meet
while job hunting. A year later, he was being supported full-time by his comic
and had stopped job hunting.

Years ago, one article claimed that he was the highest paid web comic artist
in the world.

It's good to be sensitive to the fact that being fired can be devastating. But
it isn't always.

You need to find objective performance metrics for when it makes sense to let
them go. You can't give them endless second chances.

That doesn't actually work for either party. It convinces bad actors that
their current performance and behavior is acceptable.

That actively makes their future worse by denying them information concerning
what it takes to meet the standard. Not firing them because you feel sorry for
them implicitly says "Your performance is sufficient."

If the truth is that they are only keeping the job because you feel sorry for
them, you aren't doing them any favors. You are lying to them about what
adequate performance involves.

Coddling people actively cripples their professional and personal development.
If they are "a charity case" that you are helping because you feel sorry for
them, it's better to literally give them charity rather than give them the
message that their shitty performance constitutes adequate job performance.

That just creates monsters with an excess sense of entitlement who believe
they are better than they really are. It doesn't foster excellence.

It's hard enough to see yourself clearly without being de facto lied to in
that manner.

It's also a huge disservice to those people who are actually earning their
way. It will not be lost on them that they get less for more virtue. This is a
recipe for mutiny.

------
codegeek
I have fired a few people in my small business. It is extremely hard since
ultimately it is my call being the final decision maker. But it has to be done
when it has to be done. Don't make it personal. You will know in your gut when
it is time to let someone go. Everyone knows. If you have a team, they also
know who the "could be fired" people are.

The most important thing you can do as a boss/leader who has the authority to
fire is to not fire abruptly. Make sure that they are aware of their
performance issue (in case they are not, mostly everyone is). Give them one or
two chances if you think they could improve. Document and set more clear
expectations. Let them know they are on a performance watch. If still no
improvement, fire. Of course, depending on your jurisdiction, get legal/HR
involved as needed before firing.

Don't make this personal or emotional. We feel bad as human beings but do what
needs to be done for the team to function well. remember that bad performers
also could demoralize a team. So don't be selfish by being nice. Be respectful
but do the right thing for the team.

~~~
orangepenguin
I'm a bit late replying to some of these. I think this is great advice. I'm
definitely aware of how much a poor performer has a negative effect on team
morale.

I like how you say "don't be selfish by being nice." You're right that the
aversion to doing what's necessary is selfish.

------
sloaken
Been laid off twice, fired 0. Best was when I was given 2 months warning and
they brought in a team to help people write resumes.

Expect the person being fired to be angry - it is common to disable their
accounts.

When someone is fired, I think the rest of the team usually knows they are a
problem. When it is a lay off it has a more negative impact.

I recall if someone was fired 'with cause' they could not get unemployment.
Maybe it is just in Florida. Not that unemployment pays much, but that can be
a double whammy.

Not sure how big your company is, so not sure how effective your HR can be.
The company that had the 'kind' lay off for me was a big company. So their HR
was big enough to know everything to tell us.

Make sure you have it well documented. Expect a lawsuit. When I was laid off,
some people tried to sue for age discrimination. They failed as there were
very few people left at that location, all of whom were older.

------
andrei_says_
On keeping it objective, brush up on nonviolent communication statements.

Basically only speak about things that have can (as in video camera could
capture them) been observed (and ideally have been documented).

“Your start time is 9:00am. On 17 occasions you arrived after 9:45” is clear
and clean.

“You’re always late” - hardly provable and there’s always an exception.

“You are not reliable” - very vague and based on the speaker’s subjective
criterion for reliability. (A camera cannot record the “not reliable”
subjective evaluation and so it would bring up defenses.)

I teach NVC — hit me up for a 15 min zoom intro.

~~~
orangepenguin
I'm familiar with NVC and I think it's an excellent framework for
communicating about performance related matters in the workplace. Glad you
brought it up!

------
arethuza
"I also know that letting someone go can affect morale on the team."

First time I fired someone the first reaction I got from a team member was
"what took you so long". So firing someone doesn't always have a negative
impact on other team members.

~~~
orangepenguin
Good point! I've definitely had that feeling as an individual contributor.

------
Rannath
Be respectful, even after they're gone, your employees should know that even
if you let them go you'll treat them with some level of respect. Your team
might already knows this person is under-performing.

It's a sad thing to fire someone, or be fired. Let it be a sad thing, but do
what's necessary.

If you give them a reasonable chance to improve, you should feel free to let
them go. I'd probably give someone a month to improve, or find another job.
Resources allowing.

------
gadgetstuff
Never been in that position and likely never will be. See if you can extract
anything useful out of the Firing Lady skit by MadTV. If nothing, it's at
least funny.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyv4VumXsWo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyv4VumXsWo)

------
segmondy
It should never be a surprise to them.

------
samuraiseoul
I've been fired a few times as a developer and I think your empathy approach
is truly wonderful!

The first time I was fired it was entirely 100% my fault. I was a practicing
alcoholic at the time(meaning I was still getting smashed by whisky every
night) and it affected my performance, as well as my punctuality, energy
levels, and concentration. I would show up late, fall asleep in meetings, and
not really get much done. There was no surprise for me when I was let go and I
had been given several warnings. My boss was my programming mentor all
throughout college, and one of my best friends, so I can imagine it was really
hard for him. Me and him are still friends and talk everyday though it took a
month or so for me to mentally uncouple 'boss' him who fired me and friend
him. Either way, he made sure some friends came over and hung out with me
after and encouraged me and made sure I knew that if called for a reference
that he would give me a good one. He also helped me brush up my resume and
such which was a nice gesture. I was in a bad place at the time though and I
still kept drinking so it took a long time to find a job, but that's not
really here nor there. I would say depending on your level of knowledge of
this employee, be sure to try and help him through maybe some external issues
if you think he may have a drinking problem or medical issue, go through HR to
do it most likely, but do try and give him the benefit of the doubt. I don't
think most people enjoy being shitty employees, if they chose that career path
there is most likely a reason, and being in the bottom percentile of
professionals in their field is most likely not a life goal of theirs.

The second time I was fired was different. I wasn't a great culture fit, but
mainly I was a victim of some politics from what I gathered after talking it
out with my direct boss. There was a project which was the first I was made
the lead of and the reqs kept changing until there were conflicting
requirements and I told them as much and that the end product would be
defective and could get into an invalid state, but then was ignored, and the
project didn't work as they expected. It was a big release and so 'someone had
to take responsibility' and it couldn't be my boss as he's the CTO and had all
the passwords and more domain knowledge, so I was let go. At least that's what
I gathered. Luckily, I had two months notice here and I was already swimming
in recruiter offers at the time and had been looking anyways. MY boss told me
privately that I was being let go and that the interviews we were doing were
for my position and that I'm not supposed to know but he felt me being fired
was dumb. When I was let go they told me that they had brought up some issues
before in my performance reviews but they had not, but rather mentioned them
offhand in company wide meetings that everyone in the company should keep in
mind. Things like lunch is EXACTLY one hour and things, sometimes I would take
like 1 hour 15 minute ones even though I would also skip lunch multiple times
a week. Regardless, never brought up to me one on one. So be sure if you're
going to mention improvement things, that you mention them EXPLICITLY to the
employee, and also be willing to work with them if possible as they may even
feel bad but not know how to bring it up. If they need an hour and fifteen for
lunch everyday, and maybe have a good reason, perhaps just don't worry about
it. Not saying that is the case, and my reasons weren't really anything
besides apathy, but maybe they live a bit far out and have to go home for
lunch to give their pet medication at lunch. The other thing that was nice
here is they considered if I had family in the area who could help if I got
into a pinch between jobs and also gave a small severance. Things like that
can really help.

Lastly some other pieces of things are to do it privately, hopefully near some
lesser used exit or another. They will be emotional I imagine, and the last
thing they want is to describe why they are looking distraught while leaving
the building. A walk of shame is just cruel. Offer to let them get their
things after hours if they like. Also offer to let them use the computer again
at that time and maybe bring an external cd burner and blank cd or supply a
memory stick. We all 'know' not to use the work computer for personal things
but many do, especially by accident or its the first job or whatever. They may
have some documents they saved as pdf's like receipts or something they need
off. Or an important account tied to their work email. I think my first job I
was an idiot and tied my electric bill to my work email for instance. Allowing
them that can be nice. Also perhaps allow them to write a letter or something
to some employees that they were friends with that they may want to exchange
contact info with to get lunch or something sometime.

As for morale on the team, I think keeping them around is most likely worse
though. I mean if you've ever had a coworker who was just horrid and then
things improved when they left for a different job, its like that if they are
the kind of employee that needs to be fired but you keep them around.

To summarize though. Kindness is key. A person most likely isn't
underperforming because they want to, rather some other issue may be at play,
even if they can't fix it themselves after being warned. Be sure to give
explicit warning, and also to give a good run-time to find a new job if
possible. Many people don't have the reserves to be between jobs for long
after all, especially people with other issues in their lives. Let them keep
their dignity, and also to get their belongings/friends/relationships/digital
info with dignity and respect.

If you have questions or something let me know and I'll try to answer them.
Good luck and no matter what try not to feel bad if you've really tried to
help them. In the end the only person you can truly force change on is
yourself. It's not your fault. :)

