
Jewish legacy inscribed on genes? - kqr2
http://www.latimes.com/news/la-sci-jewish-iq18-2009apr18,0,3315759.story?track=ntothtml
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HSO
"But the idea that some groups of people are inherently smarter is troubling
to many. Some scientists say it has such racist implications it's unworthy of
consideration."

Why is this troubling? What are the racist implications? I thought being more
intelligent is a virtue. Or are people afraid that, if there's someone who is
smarter than average, clearly there must be someone else who is dumber? In any
case, though, a hypothesis does not become more or less valid because of its
political or social implications.

Everybody can see that blacks in general (or I suppose with a certain genetic
history) can jump higher than average white. The average European descendent
can jump higher than the average East Asian.

So what?! You still get Obama and you still get Yao Ming. As long as the rules
are the same for everyone (as they should), it's all about individual effort
and luck. The average is irrelevant for policy or social efforts. It should be
only of scientific interest.

~~~
Tichy
"Everybody can see" is exactly the problem. Can you really see? Can blacks
really jump higher, or are there just more blacks playing basketball because
it was the best way to get into a good college to play basketball (so more
jumpers -> more high jumpers)? Are Europeans better in soccer than Americans
because of their genes, or because more people play soccer in Europe, so it is
more likely to discover the soccer talents?

Are blacks better musicians, because of their genes, or were there simply more
black musicians because not many other professions were open to them - and
there being so many good ones was just a result of statistics?

Are jews genetically disposed to be good with money lending, or are they good
money lenders because they were not allowed to take on many other professions?
So many jews became money lenders and ended up getting rich?

Not claiming that genes don't affect IQ, but to claim that it is not dangerous
to talk about such things? I don't care much about jumping high, but if
somebody would claim that my IQ is most likely 10 points less than that of
somebody with another race, I would not like it much. I suppose you don't see
many black scientists pushing the "genetic IQ" hypothesis. What is your race,
just wondering?

Worse, as is explained very well in "The Logic Of Life" by Tim Harford, there
is such a thing as rational racism. It goes like this: if employers expect on
average black applicants to a job would be less qualified than whites, it
would make economical sense for them to ignore black applications. In turn it
would make sense for blacks to not care much for education, because employers
will ignore them no matter what. It is explained better in the book (they run
a test with randomly assigning black and white names to CVs, the CVs with
black names received significantly less job interview invitations). Meaning:
if it was known that a certain race had a lower IQ, it would be economical for
employers to not consider them for good jobs, even if there could be
occasional outliers of smarter people.

~~~
HSO
Perhaps "everybody can see" was a bit offhand, since I don't specialize in
these matters. But the point I was trying to make actually was this: In
general in daily life, we should not care about the average but about the
individual. I'm East Asian born in Europe so I've been aware of all kinds of
stereotypes from both sides, good and bad. And you know what: It's just a blur
and too broad a brush to paint the picture of my life or my decisions or
capabilities etc. Same for other people. Of course I make snap judgments about
them if I don't know them but they usually have to do with demeanor, language,
clothing, anything and race is no factor usually (unless on a basketball court
;)

As for your last paragraph, however, I've grappled with that too and actually
did not come to any conclusion. Obviously, you build filters as you go through
life. In fact, if you face the same type of decision problem over and over,
it's probably better to make it on a statistical basis rather than evaluate
always fresh. But where is the line to discrimination and actually pushing
people (who unlike most things adapt) into your framework, I don't know.
Positively, statistical decision-making is "accumulating experience" faster;
negatively, it's stereotyping. I don't know where the line is.

Still, I hold the line that the fact and truth is what it is, and should not
be influenced by "what happens if the conclusion is A?". If we're afraid of
truth, whatever it is, then something deeper is wrong and we better try to
repair this rather than doctor the truth or our perception of the world.

~~~
Tichy
I am definitely in favor of not letting political correctness get in the way
of research. Just thinking certain claims should be extremely well validated
before they are being blurted out. And just because there is opposition to
some "research" because of political correctness also doesn't imply the
correctness of that research.

A flashback in history: some decades ago it was believed that the form of the
skull could predict whether you are a criminal or not. Harmless research?
Surely not, if you had the wrong kind of skull.

P.S.: I take it with Asian family background you are on the safe side of the
race IQ debate, as Asians are deemed to have an higher IQ than Caucasians on
average.

~~~
HSO
Come on, I don't see why the original authors were "blurting out" their
hypothesis. From the article, it sounded like a normal, legitimate way to come
up with something in the scientific research process. Science needs
communication and as they themselves put it, they expect other researchers to
examine the evidence more closely. Just to clarify this: I don't actually have
an opinion on this issue; my problem is with the argument that somehow there
is legitimate "overhead" to science in terms of social or political
consequences or even people's personal pride. We are not in the middle ages
anymore.

~~~
Tichy
Sorry, didn't refer specifically to the research from that article, just to
the general research surrounding race/IQ. I read the Bell Curve years ago
(didn't find it as shocking as expected), and even bothered to dig up some of
the articles on twin studies in the libraries (most not being that convincing
after all, it is hard to find a lot of twins that were separated as kids). As
for the article linked here it is hard to judge it based on the facts given in
the article alone. Just wanted to say that it doesn't become more likely just
because people are opposed to it out of political motivation.

Don't get your middle age reference: are you claiming that people don't have
prejudices anymore? What about your "everyone can see" statement? People still
have prejudices, and they affect peoples lives, often in a bad way. You think
something like "recognising criminals by their skulls" could not happen
anymore today? I think it could - just think of the immunisation/autism
debate.

Edit Re "blurting out": there are so many silly claims with respect to
genetics, it is so easy to claim things must be so and so because of genetics.
Hence my "blurting out" blurt.

~~~
HSO
The middle age thing was just a reference to the general struggle between the
church representation of the world and the emerging scientific approach. I
agree with you on the racial prejudices. They are definitely not dead; many
people seem to need them somehow. I suspect, though, that genetic profiling
will become a more potent issue in the future.

------
Tichy
Sounds like pure speculation to me. But hey, the researcher has read 15
textbooks on genetics, so he must know what he is talking about. Not saying it
is impossible, but there are a lot of other factors to consider, too.

~~~
hackinthebochs
It's far from speculation, very reasonable in fact. The genetic diseases were
all related to fat metabolism. There have also been studies that show the
quality of insulation on neurons (from fat) correlate strongly with
intelligence. It's not a very big leap at all to see a connection between
those disorders and increased intelligence.

------
adrianwaj
"Jews didn't intermarry, keeping their gene pool closed. They were subjected
to periodic persecution, which kept the population from outgrowing its
professional niche."

It hasn't been pleasant, but we have to be smart in order to survive.

------
edw519
This story is a perfect example of flawed logic that we see so often here on
hn that whenever someone points it out, they immediately get downvoted.

So, one more time, here goes:

correlation != causation

It goes something like this...

"We have observed a and b together very often. Therefore, a must have caused
b."

Kinda reminds me of the garbage strike in New York City years ago. Garbage
piled up on the streets and rats appeared everywhere. One of these "experts"
probably would have said, "Look at all the garbage these rats brought."

Maybe we need a new "correlation != causation" flag.

~~~
jsrn

       > Kinda reminds me of the garbage strike in New
       > York City years ago. Garbage piled up on the streets 
       > and rats appeared everywhere. One of these "experts" 
       > probably would have said, "Look at all the garbage 
       > these rats brought."
    

:-) I also like: "Most traffic accidents are caused by people who have a
driver's licence. Therefore, the driver's licence is responsible for traffic
accidents."

~~~
Tichy
Uh, actually the driver's license causation seems to make sense (in an
environment where drivers have to have a driver's license). If yu took away
all driver's licenses, accidents might go down. If you took away the rats, the
garbage would stay.

~~~
jsrn
well, if you take away _all_ driver's licences, I guess that includes the
driver's licences of police officers. Which would make it relatively difficult
to enforce the rule that "drivers have to have a driver's licence"... [Porsche
vs police bicycle...] :-)

~~~
Tichy
roadblocks?

------
jeroen
single page: [http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-sci-
jewish...](http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-sci-jewish-
iq18-2009apr18,0,4055412,full.story)

