
After Years of Abusive E-mails, the Creator of Linux Steps Aside - JoshTriplett
https://www.newyorker.com/science/elements/after-years-of-abusive-e-mails-the-creator-of-linux-steps-aside#
======
greenyoda
Extensive discussion a few days ago:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18000698](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18000698)

------
harshaw
The first time I've seen it reported that Linus was compensated 1.6M. (not
related to the subject of abusive behavior)

I'd also like to say as a manager of a bunch of top notch woman engineers, we
don't have an abusive environment, we don't have a frat boy environment, and
it's friggin awesome. (and we are hiring, PM me :) )

~~~
klenwell
Also first I've heard that the New Yorker was directly involved in the
decision:

 _Torvalds’s decision to step aside came after The New Yorker asked him a
series of questions about his conduct for a story on complaints about his
abusive behavior discouraging women from working as Linux-kernel programmers._

On the topic of women engineers and also as a manager of top-notch woman
engineers: wholly agree. For the Moneyball readers, I sometimes joke that
women engineers are the Greek Gods of Walks when it comes to software
development. Which is really just another way of saying that characteristics
traditionally associated with women correlate in my experience with skills
that are often underestimated in software development and evaluating them with
brogrammer-world biases is a competitive disadvantage.

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shirro
Discussions on this topic have descended into culture war elsewhere and been
shut down.

It would be great if at least one thread could discuss how management of
software projects can evolve to better serve all contributors instead of
people digging trenches.

I am guilty of enjoying Linus tirades, especially when he is making technical
arguments. I think a lot of people use colourful language as emphasis. I don't
subscribe to the idea that women are delicate flowers and need to be protected
from a bit of swearing. Adults in general shouldn't be wrapped in cotton wool.
But Linux hasn't been a hobby project for ages and development discussions are
open and archived and improving the quality of discourse there is worthwhile.
If Linus can learn to communicate better, while maintaining his honesty and
passion it will benefit everyone, himself included.

I am a bit disappointed that this has been mixed up with gender politics
because it seems to me that the lack of representation by gender, race, social
position etc is a bigger societal issue and putting any of that back on Linus
seems a little unfair.

~~~
thecrash
> I don't subscribe to the idea that women are delicate flowers and need to be
> protected from a bit of swearing.

You're right that women - like anyone - are generally capable of dealing with
a harsh environment, but the difference is women are penalized for doing so.

The most effective way to operate in a harsh environment is to match it. If
busting balls is the way your peers call attention to a technical issue, then
when you want someone to pay attention, you'll bust their balls. If someone
challenges you in a rude way, often a rude rebuttal is the most effective
response.

Women can do that just as well as anyone else, but the problem is when they
do, they're judged more harshly. This isn't a question of corporate policy,
but of human socialization. We all unconsciously expect women to be more mild
and agreeable. So when they are rude, profane, or combative, we notice it much
more readily and it provokes a stronger emotional reaction. People are much
more likely to write them off as "unprofessional" or "drama". This in turn
closes off one of the main options for dealing with a harsh environment.

There are two possible solutions to this: fix human socialization so that
people no longer have involuntary unconscious biases about combative women, or
simply cultivate an environment that discourages everyone from being
combative, so we can avoid the issue and get back to building stuff.

The former would be ideal, but it requires broad sweeping social change (and a
lot of time). Until that can happen, we unfortunately have to settle for the
latter.

------
kevmo
My experiences as a leader have shown me, time and time again, that people
respond far better to praising what they did right, rather than excessively
focusing on the negative. If Linus is serious about this, it's going to
ultimately make Linux even better.

Good read - "Negative Feedback Rarely Leads To Improvement"
[https://hbr.org/2018/01/negative-feedback-rarely-leads-to-
im...](https://hbr.org/2018/01/negative-feedback-rarely-leads-to-improvement)

~~~
forgottenpass
>people respond far better to praising what they did right, rather than
excessively focusing on the negative

Interesting. I wonder how much impact all the negative feedback from social
media and traditional media had on the timeline of the behavior standards for
LKML.

------
jasonwatkinspdx
This should stay on the homepage. The claim that Linus's recent action was in
fact a reaction to their story is new information, that substantially changes
conversation. This is not a dupe nor a needless rehash

------
conroy
Avoiding the difficult questions raised by the article, I’d like to keep it
simple: I won’t work with someone that thinks it’s okay to tell a coworker to
kill themselves, even if it’s hyperbole.

~~~
zeroname
He didn't say it to a co-worker, he said it to a hypothetical person that
doesn't actually exist in the real world.

Quote: _" So here's a plea: if you have anything to do with security in a
distro, and think that my kids (replace "my kids" with "sales people on the
road" if you think your main customers are businesses) need to have the root
password to access some wireless network, or to be able to print out a paper,
or to change the date-and-time settings, please just kill yourself now. The
world will be a better place."_

EDIT: _Why_ is this getting downvoted? Because the truth doesn't fit the
narrative?

~~~
InclinedPlane
At the end of the day Linus is making a very clearcut threat here: "if you
harbor a particular idea on this topic then I believe you have no right to
exist and should end your life immediately". That's wholly out of bounds in a
technical discussion. Especially coming from a person in a position of
ultimate power.

~~~
zeroname_
First of all, the whole thing is hyperbole. Linus doesn't actually believe
people should kill themselves over holding that particular opinion, which no
actual person holds anyway.

Secondly, you added that "you have no right to exist" part yourself. It comes
from _your imagination_ , not Linus Torvalds.

Lastly, it _wasn 't_ a technical discussion. It wasn't on a mailing list. It
was a random personal Google Plus post where Linus vented about some annoyance
he faced using an actual Linux distribution (OpenSUSE). Obviously he's not in
a position of "ultimate power" because he can't force the OpenSUSE guys to
change that annoying behavior _for him_.

------
40acres
Linus crossed the line long ago and it's good that he's taking a break to
reevaluate his actions. It's one thing to be passionate and opinionated but
Linus has shown to be a downright asshole in his administration of Linux.

------
munchbunny
I'm not sure how I feel about this article. On the one hand, it brings to
attention an important side effect of the unfriendliness of the community
around Linus, namely that it's particularly discouraging to women. On the
other hand, the problem is that it's a mean culture with Linus at its core.
Based on this article it doesn't sound like he's sexist per se, even though
the consequences of his behavior affect women more.

It's a tricky line to draw, especially since many people in tech _are_ openly
sexist. At the end of the day, I'm happy with the idea that creating a more
civil community will also help address some of the gender issues.

~~~
zeroname
> I'm not sure how I feel about this article. On the one hand, it brings to
> attention an important side effect of the unfriendliness of the community
> around Linus, namely that it's particularly discouraging to women.

 _Why?_ What does that have to do with women? Linus said _nothing_ about
women. If you want to argue that women are hypersensitive and avoid conflict
and _therefore_ Linus is discouraging them, say it. Except saying that would
be sexist, wouldn't it?

~~~
sidlls
I'd argue some people are hypercritical and instigate conflict by gratuitous
insult.

------
microwavecamera
Why did this get flagged? I don't see how this article isn't relevant or
violates any HN submission rules.

~~~
grzm
> _" Why did this get flagged?"_

Submissions (and comments, for that matter) are flagged by members. When
enough members flag an item, the [flagged] tag appears.

Asking why an item got flagged is in many ways pointless: as there's no single
member responsible, finding an answer more definitive answer than "users
flagged it" is nigh impossible.

Speculating, this may have ended up displaying a [flagged] tag because a
significant discussion regarding the topic happened very recently (3 days ago,
over 2K votes, over 900 comments).[0] The discussion in many ways is
contentious and generally produces more heat than light and new insight.
Members may feel there's little to be gained by discussing it again.

[0]:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18000698](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18000698)

------
Uhhrrr
I've never understood why the people who complain about this don't just fork
and start a new community, which will a priori be much better (er, right?).

~~~
kjeetgill
I suppose most people see the sense in a "middle-ground" where you work to
improve a community you value instead of abandoning it at the first sight of
trouble?

~~~
Uhhrrr
The only developer complaining in the article did in fact abandon the
community: [https://sage.thesharps.us/2015/10/05/closing-a-
door/](https://sage.thesharps.us/2015/10/05/closing-a-door/)

------
jstewartmobile
Which would you rather have?

A) A guy who thinks you're an idiot, and tells you--to your face--exactly why
he thinks you are one.

or...

B) typical open office dweller who _also_ thinks you're an idiot, lacks the
stones to tell you in-person, yet somehow manages to have just the right
amount of stones to tell everyone else how stupid you are.

All I know is that we have a whole lotta people in this industry with
absolutely no business plucking the splinter out of Linus's eye.

------
jaimex2
I thought he was taking some time off, how is he stepping aside?

~~~
sam36
It is temporary as he originally stated, the title is just click bait of
course.

------
kiwifellows
Just do another fork of linux with some likeable coders... because the world
needs more forks

------
mdimec4
[https://youtu.be/pwn3gIipCjU](https://youtu.be/pwn3gIipCjU)

------
maxk42
Not all emotions must be pleasant. Why do people think there's something wrong
with unpleasant emotions?

~~~
phkahler
Every person is free to experience their own unpleasant emotions. It's not OK
to verbally abuse other people just because you can't control those emotions.
It's especially offensive with email since it takes time to type and one could
make a habit of not hitting send immediately - write a draft and give yourself
time to cool off, then edit out the nastiness before sending. If that seems a
waste of time, one might learn to just not write the stuff that needs to be
removed in the first place just for efficiency sake.

