
Redecentralize.org - aard
https://redecentralize.org/
======
Shank
Philosophical arguments to decentralize everything are great, but literally
nobody outside of this industry cares. The key to success, ironically, for
decentralization, is for everyone to care. The first step is to ship a product
people actually want to use that has tangible benefits: right now, every
philosophical site like this is dead on arrival because it requires ground
swell that doesn't exist without a compelling product.

~~~
tastyfreeze
I would say the key to decentralization success is making decentralized
services that users don't even know are decentralized. As long as using a
decentralized service requires more effort than centralized services it will
only be enthusiasts using the products.

~~~
chrysoprace
This is crux of the problem with their take-off. A few weeks ago I set up a
personal Matrix homeserver and when my non-technical partner asked me what I
was working on I didn't even know where to start. She is not computer-
illiterate by any means, but being outside the industry, a concept such as
federation is completely foreign.

Even trying to explain federation to my work colleagues who _are_ in the
industry is difficult, because it is such a fundamental shift from the normal
web infrastructure.

~~~
cvwright
I usually just tell people that Matrix works like email.

You have your server, and it relays messages back and forth to other people’s
servers for you.

~~~
mandelbrotwurst
Do they understand that or do they just hear email as Gmail, say "oh, ok" and
go on with their lives?

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cvwright
I think most people still understand that you can email people on different
systems - Hotmail, work accounts, school accounts, etc.

~~~
mandelbrotwurst
They do, but what I think they might not understand is that there is a
protocol behind it all that at least theoretically allows for anyone to run
their own server without a third party, which I think is the aspect of e-mail
that you're trying to call attention to, no?

Part of the point that I'm trying to make is that e-mail as it stands today -
with the majority of messages going through the servers of a single
corporation - isn't all that decentralized in practice.

When you mention e-mail to the layperson without additional explanation, what
they have in mind is a fairly centralized system.

~~~
cvwright
To be fair, Matrix as it stands today isn't very decentralized either. The dev
team reports that their big matrix.org server has something like 40k monthly
users. And while there are a ton of tiny little personal homeservers out
there, all the action is really happening on matrix.org.

~~~
mandelbrotwurst
Ah, fair enough then. I suppose in this case I may be the one misinterpreting
your analogy!

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strbean
I feel like home NATs were one of the biggest developments that curbed
decentralization and led to the dominance of a "producer vs. consumer"
internet. STUN/TURN and IPv6 are big enablers of a move back to the roots of
the internet, right?

~~~
mindslight
NAT isn't the problem. Most NAT punching isn't terribly hard after a
lightweight rendezvous. And VPSs with public IPs have been available for
$20/mo for the past decade and a half. The problem is the user experience of
p2p software, due to less funding to polish it up and market it hard, due to
its fundamental goal of eliminating middlemen.

~~~
strbean
> NAT punching isn't terribly hard after a lightweight rendezvous.

Has that been true for very long? It seems like nowadays it is trivial, but a
decade ago it was extremely common for users to have to do manual port
forwarding to receive connections.

As for VPSs, that's basically a non-starter in terms of user experience,
similar to the issue you raise with p2p software. For the audience of HN, NAT
etc. are a non-issue, but for real democratization to occur, the process needs
to be as simple as "install app, run app, share link provided by app to
friends".

~~~
mindslight
NAT punching is establishing communication without forwarding a port. Think
like making a TCP connection with a connect() at each end (no listen()). The
ability has been there the whole time, but I'm sure libraries have gotten
better - again because of development effort.

The point about VPSs is that extra public IPs have been easily available. If
simply being able to receive incoming connections was sufficient, the process
of setting up a VPS would have been easily automated. In reality, server-based
protocols such as HTTP/DNS are insufficient for decentralization, and
developing replacements takes work.

~~~
oldtail
> In reality, server-based protocols such as HTTP/DNS are insufficient for
> decentralization

That seems to be true but I’m unsure as to why. What’s your take?

~~~
mindslight
1\. A name points to a single authority for a resource.

2\. Even worse, the single authority is bound to a single (logical)
authoritative server.

Using pubkeys for names, like Freenet or IPNS, solves (2) but not (1). Which
does allow content to be wholly retrieved from peers (a massive step up!), but
still relies on a single authority. So I would think that well-known
authorities will still crop up, centralize, and abuse market inefficiency.
Although much easier to fork, so more pressure to behave (imagine being able
to say hey use my faceboot alternative at
[http://newsite.com](http://newsite.com), and have all the content
automatically there, without the hostile software!).

I've been thinking about this for quite some time, and ideally (1) would be
solved as well. The only system I've seen in the wild that attempts to
distribute authority itself is Camlistore's "claims". But the idea being that
a "far" link should truly be changeable by the end user, rather than to a
singular authority.

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smoyer
I like the idea, want to participate but am NOT signing up for yet another
stupid newsletter. Please publish an RSS feed (I see that it's Github Pages
... perhaps your site generator can do it?)!

Someone noted that the forums are Google Groups and the site, blog etc. are
hosted on Github. Shouldn't dog-fooding inherently be part of this strategy?

~~~
emsimot
Looks like RSS links are on each separate page

[https://redecentralize.org/radar/feed.rss](https://redecentralize.org/radar/feed.rss)

[https://redecentralize.org/podcast/feed.rss](https://redecentralize.org/podcast/feed.rss)

~~~
smoyer
Funny! ... I only looked at the blog page (my bad)

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soapdog
I've been to some events here in London organized by redecentralize.org, they
were fantastic. I'm quite active in that sphere, mostly SSB for me, so going
there was like being a fish returning to the sea. I've learned so much and was
so energized with all the conversations and demos. If you're in London or
nearby, I advise to keep an eye for the next event and don't miss it. If you
end up going and don't know anyone, look for me, I'm usually with a adesive
with the same nick you see here. I'll introduce you to people and show you
cool tech.

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mongro1
Looks abandoned.

~~~
jshevek
Yes, few items on the app radar and they have 2017 as the date.

Edit: No new videos on their youtube channel younger than 3 years, either.

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dang
A thread from 2013:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6543846](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6543846)

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openfuture
I was reading their list of technology
([https://github.com/redecentralize/alternative-
internet](https://github.com/redecentralize/alternative-internet)) and I think
book looks really good, it's solid time-tested technology and I can't believe
I'd never seen it in the 'alternative-internet' scene.

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marknadal
We're doing this!

Just hit 19M+ monthly users.

In production with Internet Archive, HackerNoon, etc.

( [https://github.com/amark/gun](https://github.com/amark/gun) )

Scaling systems that have to run out of the browser by default is tough, but
we're doing this on $0 in server costs, in javascript, with millions of users.

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geoah
Videos can be also found on youtube.
[https://www.youtube.com/user/redecentralize](https://www.youtube.com/user/redecentralize)

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redecentralize
Thanks all - we actually updated the website today!

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rapnie
Cool. Though their forum still is a Google Group..

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mrandish
Very cool initiative and it seems to have some good folks involved.

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reportgunner
Let's redecentralize by centralizing your e-mail addresses in our mailing
list.

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jshevek
I'm disappointed to see a 'decentralization' platform promoting a product
which promotes Pocket. And this in its top 5 recommendations, even. I
understand the problem of purity spiraling vs pragmatism, but at least they
should have a warning "this product promotes services which are antagonistic
to decentralization."

