
iPhone X - interconnector
https://www.apple.com/iPhone-x
======
zaroth
They make is so easy to login to the phone -- I'm still waiting for the
ability to add multiple users. When I hand my phone to my daughter she should
see her apps, my son, his. And when I hand my phone to my wife, she should
unlock it and see.... _her phone_. If 256GB local storage and 11ac WiFi isn't
enough storage and bandwidth to make this easy, I would be OK if it only kept
the last GB of the camera roll.

Of course this sync should happen directly between our devices when they are
on the same network. No need to go through the cloud.

By default if her phone rings it should only alert on her primary device.
Unless she authenticates to my device at which point everything is there
waiting. If her phone was ringing and she picks up my device and authenticates
it should answer the call.

Ideally this is all smooth enough that we have matching devices and don't care
which one either of us walks out of the house with.

The end game is that when networks are fast enough, the cloud mature enough,
and homomorphic encryption performant, we get to the point where the phone
basically lives in the cloud and anyone can pick up any iDevice, authenticate,
and be looking at effectively their own device.

~~~
addicted
Steve Jobs talked about this when he returned to Apple. He basically discussed
how he would work at his home Mac and then come to the office and login and
suddenly with the internet and networking the work Mac would be exactly the
same.

I think the ideal should basically be that. You can pick up a phone, any phone
(limited to iPhones for Aplle), login to your iCloud account and suddenly it's
your phone, indistinguishable from the other phone thst was yours, outside
maybe unavailable hardware features.

That's one of the great things about web apps. I can log into Gmail anywhere
and it's the same thing. I haven't used it, but I believe this is the promise
ChromeOS delivers.

~~~
copperx
Isn't this the decades-old idea of Plan9?

~~~
Sharlin
It's the decades-old idea of _thin clients_.

~~~
TheOtherHobbes
No, it's not, because the CPU is still local, so you're not just using your
device as a terminal to a remote server.

We don't have the infrastructure for this yet.

The absolutely open version - even if it was just storing apps centrally and
downloading them on demand, and not downloading _everything_ \- would still
require something like 100 times more bandwidth than we have now to be usably
fast.

A workable version, with local storage providing device accounts for a small
number of users, would still need more local storage than we have now, and
storage isn't cheap enough yet to make this fully affordable.

256/512GB devices could possibly handle family needs, just about, but would
struggle at work.

~~~
majewsky
IMO network bandwidth and latency is a bigger problem than storage. Right now,
I can stream [1] HD movies from my homeserver to wherever my notebook is right
now, because the upstream at home is wide enough (6 megabits per sec). But
that application only works because it has quite predictable bandwidth
requirements and can cope with latency quite well. Many other applications
would be horribly slow if every file access had a second-long roundtrip.

[1] via sshfs

------
leeoniya
> Your face is now your password

no, it isnt. and neither are your fingerprints. none of this publicly
available data is a password.

a password is something i can change if it gets compromised. a password is
_secure_ from others.

biometric data is a _username /id_.

why do companies insist on getting this shit backwards?

~~~
audunw
> biometric data is a username/id.

> why do companies insist on getting this shit backwards?

They don't have it backwards, but they're also simplifying when they say it's
your password. In the presentation they actually say specifically that there's
a chance that someone else can unlock your phone (1 in 50'000 for fingerprint,
and supposedly 1 in 1'000'000 for Face ID, given that you don't have a twin).

Reality is that it's somewhere in between. A fingerprint sensor or face reader
will keep casual snoopers - and most people who find your phone on the street
- out. That's all that matters for most people. It's not a username. It's at
least moderately hard for someone to duplicate, and it's not something you'd
actively share with someone. It's not as safe as a password, but Apple isn't
trying to claim that either.

I think it's a good idea to avoid false dichotomy here. Biometrics is
biometrics. It should be treated as distinct from passwords or usernames.

~~~
ballenf
Watching someone key in a PIN and recording it, then swiping the phone is
easier than building a 3D printed color model of someone's face. Not to
mention that having the biometric unlock sitting on top of a PIN means that
there are many fewer chances for the PIN to be observed.

Whether biometric access is a password or username is trying to force the
wrong paradigm. Going back to first concepts, we had keys and we tried to make
them hard to copy but not too inconvenient. The face is the key. No, there's
no practical way to re-key this lock, but it's still a lock and key. But the
door also has a deadbolt (PIN code) which has to be disengaged for the "face
key" to function.

The username concept applies when you have multiple people using the same
resource (and don't want to know or reveal whether any 2 people use the same
password) -- which again doesn't apply to a single-user device.

Finally, all this combined with the quick "hard lock" of the device (5 taps of
power button) gives me the impression of a very thorough approach to security.

~~~
chrischen
It's more like walking around with your pin written on your forehead.

~~~
mygo
Except that a regular pin pad lets anyone enter the pin. Your pin code can
only be keyed in by 1:1000000 people [citation needed]. So no, your pin is not
on your forehead. Your pin is an organic material with color and depth and
movement that for all intents and purposes is your actual forehead.

The average opportunist thief won't be able to duplicate that key. The best
that they can do is use your actual face, within a few feet from you, while
you're staring directly at the phone in their hands.

------
chris_7
I unlock my phone in my pocket with Touch ID all the time - ready to go and on
the home screen by the time I've flipped it around in my hand. Feels like a
straight downgrade in usability.

also, some engineer at apple had to continuously grow a beard to test this

~~~
dan1234
I think speed of the facial recognition will make or break this. If it takes
less than 500ms of me staring at it to unlock it could feel fluid enough. Any
longer and it'll be annoying every time.

~~~
davrosthedalek
500ms is a LOOONG time. That's about how long my S8 needs, and I always
question whether it works this time. 100ms or so would be great.

~~~
kfriede
I may be wrong, but I remember reading something that most humans can't notice
any lag below 200ms.

~~~
coolsunglasses
That's absolutely not true. I can tell the difference between 60 hz (16ms) and
my 144 hz monitor. I can tell when my 144 hz monitor is accidentally running
at a lower refresh rate, including 120, 100, 75, and 60.

200 ms is like a full react/response time for a human to take action in
response to input, our actual sense of time is much finer than what our
nervous system can make our muscles do.

~~~
TylerE
That's not lag though, that's refresh rate.

The question is could you tell the difference between your 144hz monitor and
your 144hz monitor with the signal delayed 100ms.

~~~
davrosthedalek
Good monitor reviews include a test of the delay. 3 frames delay (<100 ms at
60hz) is absolutely atrocious and easily detected by players in games.

But of course, that's not the problem. It's ok that the phone doesn't unlock
with out me noticing the delay. It just can't be so long that I start doubting
whether it works.

~~~
eanzenberg
I notice a 1 frame in 60hz delay (<17ms) when comparing vsync on vs. gsync @
57 fps. I'm sure many other video gamers will as well.

------
nunez
These keynotes were _magical_ before leakers leaked everything. I'm wondering
if Apple should scrap these and aim for smaller, unplanned releases instead.

As far as this phone goes, I am really excited to see how it stacks up to the
Galaxy S8. Face ID is incredibly enticing, but Samsung Pay is much more
universal. The only thing that is making me want to retreat back to an iPhone
is its inferior Bluetooth audio quality.

~~~
geff82
Honestly, my wife and I had no previous exposure to leaks besides "there will
be something expensive".

And then it felt like the real Apple magic. We sat there and at every product
presented we said "Wow, we want this. NOW!". While the iPhone 8 still felt
quite normal, the iPhone X absolutely killed it for us. And let's not begin
with the eSim-Watch... which is so SciFi that I wanted it back in 1990 when I
was still 8 years old. We have to appreciate that there is more to life than
revolution, Apple "simple" does evolution at a very high level and in the end,
they lead the competitors. Today, we could see the stuff that Samsung and
others will get right in a year or two. When Apple already presents their next
evolution... It is not about having the right specs, but the right concept. I
already know the friend who will come to me tomorrow that his HTC has and 8
core processor while Apple has only six. The point is: it is all useless
without the whole package being perfect. And while Apple is freaking expensive
upfront, the peace of mind is worth it.

~~~
kingnothing
Similar watches with LTE have been available from Samsung and others for
years. Objectively speaking, Apple's latest watch isn't anything special.

~~~
geff82
Objectively speaking, no other consumer tech company grooms and refines their
products do much as Apple. (Only got my first iPhone last year after being so
hackerish minded as to avoid ever using them... could not be happier)

~~~
dsego
You meant to say grooms their customers.

------
AaronFriel
I wonder if the tech team involved with Face ID factored the birthday paradox
into their security factor. They touted a "1 in 1,000,000" chance that someone
else's face unlocks one's iPhone X.

Well, with the birthday paradox, let's say there were, say, exactly 1179
people in the Steve Jobs Auditorium and they all had iPhone Xs. That's 694,431
unique pairs of people, and there would be roughly a 50% chance of two of the
attendees faces unlocking the same phone.

That's not helpful for brute forcing a single phone, but it is mildly
disconcerting that a security factor of only 1 in 1,000,000 is considered a
"wow" factor.

Edit: Some people are asking, "But isn't that equivalent to a six digit pin?"
Yes, of course. I am just opining on the marketing spiel for security not
being nearly as impressive as it sounds. More boring features like the secure
enclave play a much larger role in the security of the iPhone than the "1 in
X" chance of a successful unlock.

~~~
oneeyedpigeon
I don't think anyone's considering faceid a "wow" factor in terms of its high
security (or lack thereof). It's hard to get the general public excited about
levels of security. Face ID is pretty much a hack, one that's existed on
android phones for many years, that Apple has to polish as best it can.

I didn't watch the keynote: do they have touch ID on the back?

~~~
OstrichGlue
Nope, no Touch ID. The presenter also failed to unlock via Face ID several
times in a row, prompting a "please enter your pin to unlock phone message".
Worst time for it to happen.

~~~
oneeyedpigeon
Huge mistake, IMO. People really love touch id, and it would've essentially
been 'free' had they just moved it to the back. I've been using Huawei's
equivalent on the Nexus 6P for over a year now, and it works like a dream.

~~~
daxorid
> People really love touch id

What? TouchID effectively hands your entire phone contents over to the Feds,
as it's significantly easier to compel a fingerprint than a passcode.

There is absolutely nothing to "love" about TouchID, unless you work in law
enforcement.

~~~
problems
The same applies to facial recognition too.

------
capkutay
I have a suspicion that removing the home button and relying on swipe-
interactions might be a step back in usability for the non-tech savvy people
who have made up a large share of iPhone users.

~~~
JorgeGT
It reminds me of Motorola's option to remove Android's black button bar and
rely instead of swiping gestures over the fingerprint reader [1]. I tried it
and, to their credit, it works very well. But it felt unnatural and my muscle
memory didn't adjust quickly, so I disabled it.

[1] [https://motorola-global-
portal.custhelp.com/app/answers/inde...](https://motorola-global-
portal.custhelp.com/app/answers/indevice_detail/a_id/116532/p/30,6720,10165)

~~~
zecg
In my experience, it works like a dream. The combined fingerprint reader /
home / back / app list button on MG5+ is great. I think it took a few minutes
to fully internalize it. Also "make a twisting motion to start camera" is
incredibly handy. I don't use the "shake for flashlight", as I fear it will
misfire and empty my battery.

~~~
JorgeGT
Maybe I should give it a second chance, but I agree that the other gestures
are great. You should try the flashlight one, I have it activated in my MG5+
and has never misfired, since you need a pretty vigourous shake to activate
it.

------
mortenjorck
I can understand the compromise of the "notch" for the sensor bar in portrait-
oriented UIs. Some thoughtful juggling of the status bar, some added
interaction, and you're all set. A reasonable trade-off.

What I cannot understand at all is the compromise in landscape mode, for games
and video. Rather than just black out the uneven area and limit the drawable
area to the largest unbroken rectangle, everything Apple shows appears
_partially obscured_ by the notch. The AR game example literally has the notch
starting to eat into the UI. In my book, this leaps from "acceptable trade-
off" to "bizarre sacrifice." It's like living with a cracked corner of the
screen, right out of the box.

~~~
walru
Which begs the question:

Would Jobs have delivered this?

note: I personally say no. The form factor is, with all it's curves, a failure
for creating UI/UX that feels complete. It's going to force more people to go
Android first with their software development. When Android starts getting
newer and better software more frequently the sea change will continue to
widen and even long lasting fans will want to try something else.

~~~
sneak
[https://begthequestion.info](https://begthequestion.info)

~~~
umanwizard
On what authority does the author of this site tell me what things mean in my
own native language?

~~~
kbutler
Well, "beg the question" is a translation from latin - petitio principii - so
pedants could say it isn't from your native language (unless you meant latin).

Language evolves - things that start out as misunderstandings or errors become
informal usage, then dominant usage, then the correct way.

Others stay misunderstandings or errors.

It pays to learn the correct way so you sound educated as you speak, and so
other educated people don't automatically discount what you say, but there's
little benefit in attempting to correct others.

That said, mis-using erudite words or phrases spoils the effect.

~~~
porkloin
>Language evolves - things that start out as misunderstandings or errors
become informal usage, then dominant usage, then the correct way.

Yes, language does evolve. For example, American English has evolved in such a
way that "beg the question" now means "raise the question" to the vast
majority of people in the year 2017.

Forgive me, but I think you're in the minority of people who bristle at the
contemporary usage of this phrase, which makes you come off as incredibly
pedantic.

~~~
kbutler
Please note that I responded to the "by what authority" comment, not the "begs
the question" comment... The reason to care about official meanings is to
avoid sounding uneducated.

I literally could care less about "begs the question". The formal use can be
depreciated - we're not likely to staunch that floe. But irregardless of my
feelings, people who flaunt the official meaning and right "begs the question"
in the increasingly common usage have the wrong affect - they sound like
they're putting on heirs - "raises" or "brings up" each sound more naturist.

(Yes, that was fun. I hope you like it, too!)

~~~
porkloin
Top notch response! :)

------
pritambarhate
Do you think phones are a "done" thing? I mean what we are seeing these days
is more of an evolution than revolution. With iPhone X I think we know what
the phone industry will move towards for next 4 years.

All these features are cool and somewhat exciting but nothing groundbreaking
that will change computing/communications forever.

VR was supposed to be the game changer but it appears that it will also take
around 4-5 years at least to be mainstream.

What do you think will bring the next revolution in personal computing and
communications?

~~~
cymbalrush
I want one computing device, or an iPhone that can run OSX (or some future OS
thats a blended version of IOS and OSX). Like a Switch that I can take me, or
plug in at home and get more power/features.

~~~
david-cako
Been saying this forever -- this is the next HUGE leap that I see. Steve Jobs
wanted the iPad to be a small Mac rather than a big iPhone. For someone like
me, there are still critical things missing from the iPhone for it to be my
primary computing device.

~~~
cymbalrush
Yes for example IOS is terrible for photo editing or any kind of media
production. It can work in a pinch but not useful for daily workflows.

~~~
david-cako
It would literally have to break out into a jailed macOS session when docked
for it to be at all practical for me, honestly.

The average user could no doubt make due with a minimal multi-window iOS
interface. I have no idea how people work with an iPad in any serious capacity
when you are restricted to a full screen interface.

------
goberoi
Can the new camera technology be used to map spaces as big as rooms?

If so, this could be game changing for allowing the creation of VR spaces
quickly and inexpensively. E.g., play a VR game in your real house after
mapping it with your iPhone X. Or better, do a detailed remodel in VR before
doing it in real life.

A lot of commercial uses of VR technology (e.g., construction, industrial
design, etc.) can benefit from inexpensive, and accurate mapping. Today, the
alternative is to get an architect to build a model of your house, to build a
crude version yourself, have a Hololens/Tango phone/or other nascent and
expensive technology.

If not, what truly is the game changing aspect of these cameras + specialized
compute for machine learning/neural nets? They have to have thought through
dozens of use cases beyond photos, animated emojis, and other trivial
entertainment... right?

~~~
Sgt_Apone
Someone has already built a measuring tape app out of this thing:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQpEWv9_6Cg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQpEWv9_6Cg).
Not exactly mapping as you're describing, but it's an interesting use case.

~~~
gxs
Interesting - thanks for sharing.

I actually thought the trajectory app was pretty cool.

------
drakenot
I can't believe that video plays "under" the notch. I would have bet money
that they would have blacked out the status bar during video playback.

~~~
miguelrochefort
I'm sure they're going to let you make the status bar black to make the notch
seamless.

~~~
provemewrong
That's what I assumed was going to happen, but nowhere in the keynote was it
black.

~~~
anonred
It was black in Apple Music (now playing view).

------
balls187
$1000 for higher fidelity snapchat features.

I love my iphone camera, and if the upgrade program isn't too terrible, I will
get the iPhoneX, but call me underwhelmed.

The implementation of faceID seems really poorly thought out. I can unlock my
phone, and navigate it before focusing my attention on it. I feel like
"attention to unlock" is going to cause an increase in distracted driver
related incidents.

~~~
FireBeyond
"This is an image straight out of the camera, with no post processing. All
we've done is apply a Portrait Filter to fade out the background."

Uhhh, I guess that doesn't count as post processing, then.

~~~
balls187
These days, after the rise of dSLRs, post-processing is something that occurs
after the image is saved to memory.

Raw sensor data to JPEG undergoes incamera processing. Cameras typically only
allow small oversight of that process, so many photographers prefer to shoot
RAW, and do 100% of the processing via post-processing.

~~~
FireBeyond
That's apologist at best. I'm not disputing the feature is cool, or whatever.
But what they're doing is unabashedly post processing. Come on, in most of the
examples there were sliders to choose the effect, the intensity thereof.

To claim "well, it's not really post processing because you're doing it before
'saving'" (also doubtful because if it's an extension of what is currently
possible with editing on the iPhone, it's an edit to a saved original) is
grasping at a straws, as is comparing it to "raw-to-JPEG". This is 'straight
out of Aperture/Lightroom' style editing, aka post processing.

~~~
yladiz
If I remember right from the keynote, "no post processing" wasn't mentioned on
the photos that had the new lighting feature. Even if it were, however, I'd
still call it true; I would consider post processing something that you do
outside of the Camera app (e.g. even editing it Photos to adjust lighting,
black point, saturation). Something you do in the Camera app, even if it does
some fancy "magic", I would argue falls outside of the post-processing realm.

~~~
FireBeyond
You're certainly entitled to that opinion, as is Apple, but it basically flies
against the definition of anything else in photography. "Straight Out Of
Camera" is about taking the time and effort to nail something so that when you
hit the shutter button, exposure, focus, composition are all "as the camera
saw it", not "as the camera saw it and then image manipulation software found
the subject, and applied a mask to the image to burn out the non-subjective
areas while keeping the exposure of the subject as-is, if not enhanced".

Edit: Hell, even Apple's own iPhone X page up now says this:

"A new feature in Portrait mode, Portrait Lighting produces impressive
studio‑quality lighting effects."

"Create beautiful selfies with sharp foregrounds and artfully blurred
backgrounds."

Somehow, these are "effects" which don't fall under the umbrella of post-
processing.

But this is a nitpick, admittedly. Nothing wrong with the feature or whatever,
but it amused me to hear "No processing. Just [applied post processing]."

~~~
balls187
"Create beautiful selfies with sharp foregrounds and artfully blurred
backgrounds."

This occurs optically, by choosing the proper depth of field, and an
appropriate focus point. The blurring of the background is "bokeh" and used in
portraits, none of which is considered "post processing."

Clearly the iphone guts aren't nearly as capable as my 5D2, but my opinion is
that if it's software that can produce a reasonable approximation of something
that can be done optically (or in the case of studio lighting with a pair of
strobes), it's fine to not be pedantic.

~~~
jvzr
Unless I misread you, this is not what is happening here. That tiny
camera/sensor combo is unable to do that narrow of a depth of field. There's a
blur, but nowhere near that extent.

The “bokeh” here is completely software generated, and made quite the buzz
last year. I remember reading a technical post by an Apple engineer explaining
how they reinvented a way to do lens blur instantaneously on the phone.

------
aeturnum
Could we have a modicum of skepticism in repeating press releases?

>Thanks to this new design, the iPhone X is sealed for water and dust
resistance.

So the iPhone 7, which does not use this design, was not water and dust
resistant? I know this is a meta point, but it's annoying. Apple can say
whatever they like in their releases, but it would be nice to have people
familiar with the domain do a smell test on the content.

~~~
vlunkr
I don't think they said that it wasn't.

~~~
AsyncAwait
I think he's saying that because the iPhone 7 was also water resistant, it
cannot be that the new one is so _due to the new design_ , given the old one
allowed for it too.

------
ProfessorLayton
I've accepted that the headphone jack is never coming back no matter how much
I'd like it to. I still can't accept that a company that is so focused on
design has accepted the ever-growing camera protrusion in order to make the
phone "thinner".

My 6s has a scuffed camera ring, and rattles when used on a table, due to its
inability to lay flat.

~~~
bhnmmhmd
I guess they've also have accepted that people are going to use a cover
anyway, so they don't bother.

> My 6s has a scuffed camera ring, and rattles when used on a table, due to
> its inability to lay flat.

Exactly. This was my first impression when I saw that protruded camera on
iPhone 6.

~~~
oneeyedpigeon
I don't know if this differs from country to country, but the vast majority of
iPhones I observe are not in a case — probably at least 90%. The design is a
major selling point, so I'm not surprised most people don't want to use a
case.

~~~
bhnmmhmd
Most iPhones I see around are in a case. I personally don't like that, but if
you're going to type on a flat table, you'd better use a case to _flatten_ the
back of the iPhone, avoiding those rattlings.

------
einrealist
I cannot get around the missing headphone jack. My headphones cost more than
this new iPhone :(

~~~
plandis
Is the DAC even good enough in the iPhone at that point? Even if you had a
straight jack audiophile headphones are probably not getting much benefit
over, say, Bose headphones are they?

~~~
adrr
Does a DAC even matter? Would love to see blind test showing they make a
difference.

~~~
anthonybsd
Do headphones even matter after a certain price point?
[http://asa.scitation.org/doi/10.1121/1.4984044](http://asa.scitation.org/doi/10.1121/1.4984044)

~~~
adrr
Headphones sound different. Open air ones, closed, planar etc. Don't all DACs
sound the same like amplifiers(unless its a tube)?

------
gbrown_
It seems like iPhone X would have been the perfect candidate to switch to
USB-C. I had thought this would have been a long time coming given the USB-C
only approach on MacBooks, yet it remains curiously absent. I really don't
understand the fracture in the Apple ecosystem in regards to connectivity
here.

Can anyone enlighten me as to why Apple are still using the Lightening
connector here?

~~~
bhnmmhmd
Honestly, when Tim said "one more thing", I thought they're going to introduce
a whole new line of products, like the Surface Phone we've heard rumors of. A
device that only looks like a phone, but is in fact, a whole PC. iPhone X
proved to be just another iPhone, nothing more.

~~~
theshrike79
There's a surprising amount of people who don't own a computer and use their
phone as their only device.

------
iClaudiusX
Probably not a good sign that FaceID failed on stage for Craig on his first
try (had to use a passcode to log in) during the demo.

~~~
xtracerx
I don't think it failed, it just said you had to use passcode on first login
after restart, just like the touchID

~~~
vidoc
It totally failed, those guys repeat those demos for months and there is
absolutely no way the phone was in such a state.

~~~
Karunamon
It looks like it unexpectedly rebooted prior to the demo as the message on the
screen was something like "You must enter your passcode before using Face ID".

Something similar comes up on reboot for touch ID users. You have to enter
your passcode once on startup to decrypt the storage where the fingerprint
data is stored.

------
rukittenme
They put that stupid black thing at the top of the phone...

~~~
balls187
Unsure why this was downvoted, but that black bar at the top really ruins the
"full screen" effect.

~~~
gschrader
I hope by the time I upgrade they figure out how to get the screen overtop all
the cameras. The black section looks horrible.

~~~
spike021
I think the original rumors said they were trying to make the cameras work
beyond the glass/display but winded up not quite getting it to work, so they
winded up with the notch this time.

------
singularity2001
"Our vision has always been to create an iPhone that is entirely screen." so
they failed thus far

~~~
gordon_freeman
No. What Ive means by that is they were bound by the constraints in technology
so far so they could not achieve this vision so far.

This is similar to what James Cameron said after filming 'Avatar' that his
vision was to create such a film for more than a decade but slow technology
advancement was the reason he could not make this film sooner.

~~~
colordrops
Yes, they have failed so far. It's not all screen. It's got a small bezel and
the sensor notch at the top. They will need to develop different materials to
support a strong bezel-free phone and sensors that sit inside/behind the
screen. They are not there yet.

~~~
cududa
The line wasn't that they succeeded in the vision. He was laying out what the
vision was.

------
IgorPartola
Ugh. So wireless charging is great. I really wanted that because having tried
some Qi cases and charging gear, it is pretty magical. And the decision to use
a glass back makes sense there.

However, Apple seems to just forget that people use their damn phones in cars.
Waze is my GPS because no matter how much my car's built in GPS tries, it's
not going to be as good as a thing connected to the internet. And in the car I
hate to use the damn charger, so yay wireless charging right? Not so fast.
Your choices are limited to a big clunky clamp style holder, or a little tiny
magnetic holder that usually goes over one of the vents. Guess what? Magnetic
holders don't work with wireless charging. Or rather they could, but the ones
I've tried (available on Amazon) were complete shit that broke almost
immediately.

There are several options to fix this problem:

a. Car manufacturers could include some kind of standard solution to this. At
the least they could make a spot to easily mount a phone and make sure it
doesn't obscure the driver's view too much while still being visible. Instead
they keep insisting on adding bigger and bigger screens. Sometimes they'll go
as far as adding a touch screen (looking at you Tesla) for no goddamn reason.
Just give me a nice place to put an aftermarket phone cradle. Or at least
don't add a 22" monitor where I want to put one.

b. Apple and/or Samsung could lead the industry in making wirelessly charging
magnetic car mounts. It's not impossible to do, and magnets would actually
help align the phone so charging is efficient wrt the induction coil used.
Sure it has a nice glass back, but who gives a crap if I now need to add an
ugly rubber case with a 2.5" steel washer to it just to get it mounted?

I get that Apple thinks CarPlay is their long term solution to this. But I
think universal adoption by car manufacturers on that one is probably at least
5 years away. And even so, lifetime of older cars is like what 15-20 years?

This is why we can't have nice things.

~~~
wrboyce
BMW (at least, I can't speak for other car manufacturers) do have a wireless
charging pad type thing inside the centre console.

You do realise the phone can still be charged with a cable, right?

~~~
IgorPartola
I know BMW has that. The point of their thing is that you can't use the phone
while it's in there. They have "apps" that connect to their display. It's
complete crap.

Of course you can charge with a cable. But you shouldn't. Wireless only
charging would be fantastic. They already got rid of the headphone jack. Why
do we need a data port?

Also, having a dedicated spot on the dashboard would mean not having to run
dangling cables all over the place.

------
bsenftner
Couple of issues here, speaking as a facial recognition developer, of arguably
one of the leaders in the industry.

1) The use of 3D data is a step in the right direction, but to use it reliably
it has to constantly re-calibrate to the individual(s) it is supposed to pass.
This is very important and a constant issue if using a person's 3D depth data
as their face for authentication. My employer pioneered the use of 3D data for
facial recognition, via 3D reconstruction, before scanning and depth cameras
were feasible. In doing so, we became aware of the significant variation an
individual's 3D facial form undergoes during _any_ time period: different
times of the day, yes, significant 3D facial form transformation; different
days, definitely. Females significantly more, as they experience 3D form
transformations simply from their menstrual cycle. Men who drink, less so than
women, also gain significant facial form transformations on a weekly basis.
Over the course of a season, everyone undergoes significant 3D form
transitions, to the degree authentication is not reliable unless constant re-
calibration occurs. Which introduces issues of system failure after
indeterminate lapses of use, or sudden physical transformation - such as an
accident, where your face is swollen. A person could be attacked, and their
face altered to the degree their phone no longer authenticates. A person could
fast for 2 days, not use their phone, and it will no longer pass.

2) They should be using multiple biometrics for authentication. The facial
image in combination with the depth information, if treated separately with
completely separate verification trained algorithms, only counts as two
biometrics. Reliable authentication of a device attached to one's credit cards
and finances requires a MINIMUM of 3 biometrics. They could solve that with
the addition of Touch-ID or the addition of a pass code in addition to the
face image and the face 3D depth data. But that borders on 'inconvenience',
and I feel consumer pleasing stupidity. Sometimes being safe should require an
extra step, simply so the consumer has the assurance their data is safe. It's
like hearing the click as the lock on your door seals. Too automatic, and it's
insecure because one never knows if it is active.

However, ignoring the face as authentication, the iPhone just became a very
slick 3D avatar creator.

~~~
mstolpm
Ad 1): They briefly mentioned in the keynote that Face ID does indeed adapts
to gradual changes like growing a beard. So, that form of recalibration seems
to be part of the concept.

~~~
bsenftner
It has to be.

------
bspn
Face ID. I'd swear this was satire if I wasn't watching it with my own eyes.

~~~
oculusthrift
what if it is dark? this guy even had issues just using it on stage

~~~
Shikadi
It probably uses an IR light source to illuminate your face invisibly. Trouble
on stage may have been from stage lighting drowning out the IR, though that
parts just speculation. I didn't watch

~~~
theshrike79
It definitely uses IR, they said so. The failed attempt was caused by a
rebooted phone, it wanted the passcode even before it saw his face.

~~~
Shikadi
Right, but I was saying it probably uses an IR _source_ to illuminate your
face in the dark. Then again, humans probably just emit enough IR without it.

------
ctdonath
Projector-based 3D face recognition. Nifty. Shines an IR dot pattern onto the
face, recognizes with that, works in the dark. Seems on continuously, wonder
how much power draw.

~~~
sixothree
Can be used by police to unlock your phone by pointing it at your face.

~~~
foodstances
How is that any different than them forcing your finger onto a TouchID sensor?

~~~
daxorid
It's not. Anybody who uses iPhone authentication methods other than a random
six digit passcode with a ten-attempt wipe is asking for trouble.

------
alkonaut
Can't help wondering what the next model will be called given what a dead end
"X" is.

After OS X they never went to 11. They codenamed the 10.N versions but it
doesn't seem likely with a "iPhone X 10.2 mushroom badger"-type name.

Best guess: they'll just call it the iPhone next year. Like some other
products they'll just use the model year to distinguish. Guessing we won't
even see the "iPhone XS", it'll just be "iPhone (2018)".

~~~
bhnmmhmd
My question is: What are they going to call the normal iPhone after iPhone 9?
iPhone 10?

~~~
MBCook
My guess is that next year they drop the numbers and it just becomes the
iPhone, the iPhone plus, and the iPhone X (or something similar).

------
the_duke
Is it just me or does the big fat shiny frame on the iPhone 10 completely
destroy it's aesthetic appeal and kills the 'infinity' effect?

It looks really clunky to me.

~~~
theshrike79
"Looks clunky" and you've only seen some rendered images of it on screen :D

------
pilom
I'm bothered by the move to TouchID and now FaceID from a "the government can
make you unlock your phone" standpoint. Legally, the precedent is that the
government can force you to use "something you are" like your face or
fingerprint to unlock your phone. Currently there is at least some ambiguity
to the precedents that say they can't require you to unlock your phone with
"something you know" like a pin or password because of that could be construed
as self-incrimination and forbidden by the bill of rights.

If you're worried about law enforcement requiring you to unlock your phone DO
NOT USE TOUCHID OR FACEID.

~~~
Y7ZCQtNo39
I'm pretty sure turning the device off and on requires a passcode.

~~~
mixmastamyk
Not always possible if law enforcement is breathing down your neck.

~~~
MBCook
New iOS feature: tap the side button 5 times to disable biometrics until a
passcode is entered again.

~~~
mixmastamyk
I saw that. Could still imagine not being able to do it in time.

~~~
MBCook
True but at that point I think you'd have the same problems with touch ID.

This really seems like the argument to not use biometrics at all, not a
specific issue with Face ID.

~~~
mixmastamyk
Agreed. I don't use it yet myself, so I'm good to go if I get tackled by
security at the airport. ;)

------
asafira
One of the most distinguishing features of the phone is the vertical
orientation of the backside cameras --- anyone else realize this is likely
because their forward facing sensor bar is likely in the way if the backside
cameras were horizontal?

A few other quick notes:

1) Those short x-ray shots of the iPhone camera assembly look impressive. I
wonder how many components and extremely-fine-scale positioning have to go
into the lens system (especially since they have to move! =) )

2) The lack of TouchID seems like a hardware regression to me, but I'd feel
more or less confident in that based on the actual experience of FaceID vs
TouchID. On a separate note: the engineers working on that must be paid
boatloads given how valuable they must be to the company, combining both
machine learning + security knowledge. (Not easy to find people like that.)

3) The screen is nice. I don't understand why people are complaining about the
screen extending "behind" the front-facing sensorbar, to be honest --- seems
like a tiny, fixable detail in the scheme of things

4) I really think people will buy this phone for the camera, and not for many
of the other features that were advertised. (not AR, not awesome graphics, not
amazing aluminum and glass, etc.)

5) Anyone know what usage has been like for Force Touch? I always was under
the impression that it wasn't that popular, but kudos to Apple for not
dropping it and still believing in it.

~~~
wrboyce
I can only speak of my own usage, but I use Force Touch a fair bit. The first
use case that comes to mind (and one I use fairly often) is changing the torch
brightness but the app shortcuts are handy too (also force push on a folder
with notifications for quick access to the apps with notifications within it).

------
thegayngler
I wasn't really excited about AI and ML until I saw this iPhone X and the
stuff they were doing with the Animojis and the Facial Recognition Tech. Whew!
I may have to study AI/ML

~~~
Eric_WVGG
I think we're going to look back on that "animoji" bit as a turning point in
modern entertainment. It's a silly, even dumb little feature, but look at
what's really going on there: realtime near-Pixar-grade facial expressions.

Someone's going to build a toolkit that lets kids make their own CG movies
with friends acting out all the roles. That's gonna be _nuts_ and is just the
start.

~~~
Splines
It's a great achievement, and from the demo it looks like they're almost there
(the framerate looked a little low and the characters were missing some
subtleties of facial expression). I'll make a wild guess and say that in three
years it's going to be nearly seamless.

------
tcfunk
Suddenly a 128gb iPhone 6s for $549 sounds like a heck of a deal...

~~~
Kevin_S
I actually think I might pick one up. In fact I may look for a 2 for 1 deal on
the 6s.

I'm headed back to Apple after having an Android ever since my IPhone 4, I'm
just done with Android. I love my 6s work phone.

I think I'll just be choosing between the 6s and a 7.

~~~
tcfunk
Can I ask what your frustrations are with Android? I was actually thinking
about going to the Google Pixel, but it's been a while since I've used an
Android phone as my day-to-day device.

~~~
limeblack
Here are the reasons I use my iPhone as my main device although I also own a
Nexus.

1) Scroll to the top of the page
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvJDXTNblbQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvJDXTNblbQ)

2) Hold home button to activate Siri without unlocking phone. There is no
Google Assintant button on most Android devices except the Samsung S8. I want
to be able to activate with headphones on while in my pocket without having to
count on Ok Google.

3) Album covers are displayed like this on Android.
[https://img.gadgethacks.com/img/25/61/63562663618448/0/disab...](https://img.gadgethacks.com/img/25/61/63562663618448/0/disable-
lock-screen-album-art-android-lollipop.w1456.jpg) While on my iPhone it looks
like this
[http://community.oppo.com/en/forum.php?mod=oppo_attachment_x...](http://community.oppo.com/en/forum.php?mod=oppo_attachment_xf&aid=35712)
I want to see the entire album cover.

4) The battery life is better on my iPhone especially when listening to music.

The apps are slighty better in my experience. Want an example? Spotify allows
reordering of songs on iPhones but not Androids.

~~~
komali2
I've been considering making the switch as well, can you comment on a few
things for me?

1\. "Play album x____" used to work in google uh... assistant? Now? Whatever
it's called now. Now it doesn't. I remember it working on my iPhone 3gs
waaaaay back. Does it still? How about "next song" and etc?

2\. How is Google app integration? Even if I make the switch, I'm not going to
be using apple suite of calendars and whatnot, my company uses google suite,
and I do not like spotify and will continue to prefer Google Play Music. Do
those apps work well? (Calendar, Google Play Music, Inbox)

3\. You ever hear of someone with a google voice number successfully using an
iphone for SMS? I have to use the Google Voice (good) or Hangouts (shit) app
for texting, and I need a data connection to do it. I have my reasons for
this, is it possible on an iphone ?

~~~
limeblack
1\. Play album "blank" works on my Nexus with 7.1 and iPhone but it isn't
consistent(on the Nexus). If you the word has special characters like dashes
or & it appears to play something that appears to be a radio.

2\. The Google Suite works well enough for me on both the iPhone and Nexus. To
be fair I actually use Gmail and Google Calendar on my iPhone so there really
isn't much of a switch. Google Play Music seems to work just as well on my
Nexus as the iPhone in fact I sometimes play music off it in the car because
it has a headphone jack. I have not encountered any Google Apps that work
better on the Nexus vs iPhone except probably Google Photos because it won't
sync in the background for the iPhone.

3\. The apps last time I used them were identical. I have had connectivity
issues/dropped calls when using G Voice years ago.

~~~
komali2
Just an FYI on 3, if this was before hangouts, they abandoned Google voice as
the texting app for "voice" customers, forcing us to use Hangouts. A couple
months ago, they released a revamped "Voice" app to encourage Google voice
users to switch to that over hangouts. Hangouts no longer supports non voice
sms, and it's performance is absolute garbage compared to the vastly improved
Voice app.

------
tabeth
I wonder how well Face ID works with dark skinned people. Dead serious.
Historically facial recognition has had a tough time with dark skinned folks.
The inclusion of an IR camera should mitigate, if not solve this, but I'm
curious to the accuracy in practice.

~~~
kanwisher
It uses an IR camera, so it wouldn't matter the skin color. Also people's skin
color changes over time so that wouldn't be a reliable system anyways

~~~
tabeth
I'm aware that it uses an IR camera. What I'm curious about is what the
accuracy rates are in practice for light vs dark skinned people for _Face ID_
in general. There's more to Face ID than just the type of camera they're
using, I imagine. Also, what do you mean by _that wouldn 't be..._. What is
"that?"

------
dvfjsdhgfv
All this time I'm wondering... Why should I buy this phone? Honestly, there's
noting convincing in it.

~~~
MBCook
It's all about your priorities.

For me? Having a phone is basically the same size but with a bigger screen is
a great win, as is the improved contrast and visual quality.

I can tell you TrueTone fantastic from using it on my iPad.

I've wanted the camera system from the plus size phones but again I didn't
want to phone that large. So to be able to get an improved version of that in
a phone that's almost the same size? That's another big win.

The rest is just bonus.

------
adamb_
Initial demo for Face ID failed -- Obviously less than ideal when trying to
convince your audience that "it just works".

~~~
nixy
It was because the phone had been rebooted, and iOS requires a passcode after
a reboot.

~~~
kyriakos
Still a PR fail though

~~~
MBCook
These things happen in live demos.

~~~
kyriakos
That's true but they don't usually happen to apple's. Apple takes great pride
for their flawless presentations.

------
parthdesai
$1320 CAD + tax for a phone. MacBook Air is cheaper than this.

edit: meant CAD.

~~~
ihuman
Where do you see $1320 + tax? The highest I can get it is $1,149.00 + tax for
the 256GB version.

~~~
parthdesai
i'm in Canada, should edit my comment.

------
sengork
I find it fascinating how hard Apple make it to find the battery capacity (mAh
or Wh) for iPhones.

My understanding is that they do not want people to make a direct mAh capacity
comparison to competing phones on the basis that iPhone can "squeeze out" more
out of the smaller battery thanks to optimisations.

~~~
pcurve
Yeah I noticed that... But I don't think that worked out too well for the new
mac book with much smaller battery.

------
dangjc
Why are people comfortable carrying a $1000 piece of equipment that can be
dropped or stolen in an instant in their pocket? My Nexus6p takes great
pictures, runs everything smoothly, and I don't have to freak out as much if
the $350 suddenly vanishes.

~~~
dewey
People also drive around in expensive cars on open roads with a lot distracted
drivers. You an also get hit in an instant by one person not paying attention.
You just have insurance for that, just like you have Apple Care or a similar
insurance in case it happens.

~~~
funnelsgun
Apple Care doesn't help if the phone is lost or stolen. However, I'm quite
sure that the risk of damaging or losing a phone is much greater than the risk
of crashing a car (at least in the UK and Western Europe). Hence, the price of
phone insurance against the price of the phone is so much worse than the price
of car insurance against the price of the car.

Then, does someone become lower risk the more time and experience with a
phone, like no claims, age and sex profiling on car insurance, or is the price
of insurance the same whether the customer is a 25 or 50 adult male.

------
acconrad
My god that is the longest product advertising page I have ever seen, and that
includes those long form ads selling those gimmicky products.

~~~
EasyTiger_
I usually enjoy scrolling through Apple's product pages, they're often quite
interesting design-wise. This one is way overdone.

~~~
cpeterso
The page is so long that I didn't realize it existed. I saw the big "X" logo
and assumed the page was still a "coming soon" teaser, so I closed the tab.
Only after reading your comment did I realize I needed to scroll to see the
content below the fold. :)

------
grenoire
Woah, they skipped 9 just like Windows!

~~~
dmix
Not necessarily, X will likely be a sub-line for iPhone like "Air" was for
Macbook. See: OSX

~~~
ihuman
I'd agree with you if they called it "Ex", but they're calling it "ten"

~~~
basch
its called o s ten not o s ecs

------
tarcon
Does the iPhone X Super Retina Display lack the 120hz refresh rate of the iPad
Pro ProMotion Display? I hoped that 120hz would be the future because I really
enjoy it and feel that animations on my iPhone 6 feel a bit jerky.

------
marcell
FaceID seems pretty impressive, if it works as advertised, and it sounds like
they've thought of a lot of edge cases.

I can't get over the black bar at the top of iPhone X though. It looks like it
has devil horns...

~~~
jordache
You got all of that from a press event? reallY?

~~~
saagarjha
Yes…they mentioned the tests they put it through. Different hairstyles, facial
hair, etc. and it worked; they tried pictures and masks and made sure it
didn't.

------
chorsestudios
I am surprised they didn't change the included lighting <-> USB cable to USB
C. Out of the box still incompatible with the MacBook Pro, and forced to use
dongles/adapters.

~~~
sneak
Why do you ever need to plug your iPhone into your mac?

~~~
chorsestudios
To program iPhone apps. AFAIK, Until the recent Xcode beta you couldn't push
code wirelessly to your iPhone, and even now the feature in the Xcode beta is
pretty slow. Also I enjoy charging my iPhone with my macs. For a company that
takes pride in seamless connectivity within their ecosystem I find it
surprising that you cannot buy an iPhone + MacBook Pro and connect them
without adapters.

~~~
sneak
You absolutely can; just not with the cables they ship with. There are
lightning to usb-c cables available from both Apple and others now.

------
hysan
So a lot of times I show my phone to my friends when they ask about the time
or if I get a quick message I want to show them on the notifications screen.
With Face ID, would this trigger a wrong face recognition? If so, I can see
this potentially locking me out as I rarely use my phone when I'm out with
groups of people. Touch ID worked a lot better in terms of fine grain control,
so this move to Face ID makes me wonder how many different edge cases were
considered in this design decision.

------
TekMol
That AI chip that runs 600 billion instructions per second - is that just for
FaceID or can it be programmed?

~~~
fivesigma
600 billion instructions per second to show a poop emoji.

~~~
subie
Incredible, just imagine what 2018 brings us.

~~~
the_duke
A poop "animoji"?

------
KZeillmann
How does the "Home" gesture work with games that require gestures? If someone
has a game that requires flicking items upward from the bottom of the screen,
will that now be impossible? I don't have an iPhone, but I'm assuming that
games like Flippy Knife and Flip Master, currently #1 and #2 on the Play
store, could run into issues.

~~~
joeld42
A swipe up that starts past the edge of the screen is already a different
gesture than a regular swipe. It works the same way as the current phone
(swipe up from bottom brings up the "control center").

~~~
maratd
Ok, so how do you bring up the control center now?

~~~
bdibs
Scroll down from the upper right, near the battery/cell status icons.

------
Accacin
So, I guess I'm the only one who thinks the notch looks great? Gives it a bit
of character! I won't be buying one though, I'm hoping my iPhone 7 lasts at
least another 2 or 3 years.

~~~
bvy
I'm reminded of the spectrum of reactions to the new Prius design by the
comments on the notch

------
wiz21c
>>> Reveal your inner panda, pig, or robot.

Ok, I stopped there. Now let's talk about the sociological impact of Apple.

~~~
floatboth
"The Waldo Moment" (Black Mirror) comes to mind.

Also speaking of Black Mirror, the first episode specifically, and the real
world news story that reminded everyone of that episode… I'm sure David
Cameron would love to unleash his inner pig :D

------
mholt
I approve of Face ID more than Windows Hello, but I'm not convinced that
neural networks are ready for security prime-time. Have we solved adversarial
attacks yet? Were any of the masks they used in training painted with
adversarial patterns?

(The tech is cool, though. Actually amazing, that it fits on a phone.)

~~~
gshakir
It was said that they worked with some best Hollywood make up artists that
make masks.

~~~
ktta
There is a different way to trick neural networks.

[https://arxiv.org/abs/1412.1897](https://arxiv.org/abs/1412.1897)

------
goeric
Face ID just failed in the on-stage demo. Oops :(.

~~~
saagarjha
The phone had just been rebooted. That's why it asked for a passcode.

------
amrrs
Guess, With Face ID, Apple making Fbi or any govt authority's 'Hey can you
open this iPhone' case much much harder.

Like iPad replaced a log of information display in Public places like
airports, Face ID could one day become our entry pass in many places.

But in the age of Trump, what if Equifax fate to apple?

~~~
dmayle
With Face ID, all the government has to do is detain you. Apple warned against
evil twins, but they should have warned against anyone living with you. Family
members, kids, roommates.

Face ID: Don't go to sleep ever again

~~~
osxrand
On stage it was stated you needed to be alert and looking at the device, as in
eyes open. Sleeping is fine I'd guess :)

If you're worried about people living with you, I'd guess TouchID is already a
huge issue.

------
pducks32
I thought Tim and the whole team did a great job presenting. And the whole
company on every team did a fantastic job making every single piece easy to
use. The iPhone X seems like a step forward in phones. I’ve used a number of
androids and can say that the usability just isn’t there.

------
runesoerensen
Also
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15229900](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15229900)

------
protomyth
I fail to see how this Face ID will work in a North Dakota winter or on the
ski slope.

// And they had a demo failure on their new unlock and swipe up for home.

~~~
ianferrel
Not like touchid worked through gloves either.

Passcode.

~~~
protomyth
removing my glove for a second is a lot easier than undoing the clothing
covering my head

~~~
dkrich
You're right, why didn't Apple product designers consider the massive segment
of the population attempting to unlock their devices via facial recognition in
the midst of a blizzard?

~~~
protomyth
well, I'm pretty sure it won't work properly with a burqa or niqab either, but
anyone who has an obstructed face is pretty much hosed.

------
boobsbr
Seems like all these features were previously available on Android phone for
(quite) some time:

\- "bezel-less" display

\- wireless charging

\- no hardware buttons on the front

\- facial recognition

\- dual cameras

Not to downplay the quality engineering of Apple, but this seems like a big
"meh..." to me. A lot of hype for stuff that is commonplace.

~~~
masklinn
I… don't disagree with the "meh" though software buttons and no buttons on the
face are pretty different results. And dual camera was added on the 7+ last
year (though it was hardly a first back then, IIRC LG and Huawei had dual-
camera models in early '16).

~~~
boobsbr
Wasn't there a phone with dual cameras for capturing stereographic pictures?

------
bennettfeely
How does Face ID work with identical twins?

~~~
gshakir
Schiller admits that 'evil twins' is a weak point.

~~~
jasonmaydie
If evil twins are a weak point how came facemasks don't work?

~~~
jpalomaki
I would imagine the facemasks where not accurate enough when it comes to the
the 3d structure.

Could be a different thing when somebody uses a quality 3d printer to print
image that is based on detailed laser scan.

~~~
theshrike79
Not very practical when hacking a random person's iPhone. And this would never
protect against a state-level actor anyway.

------
fuzzythinker
Fun fact. The iPhone 7 "Overview" link[1] on their iPhone 7 page redirects to
the iPhone X. Bug? Or a bit over pushing the new product?

[1] [https://www.apple.com/iphone-7](https://www.apple.com/iphone-7)

~~~
tkxxx7
it redirects to /iphone, where the X is featured prominently, but you can
reach them all.

edit: so does /iphone-6, but not /iphone-6s..

------
datalus
Better coverage: [https://www.macrumors.com/2017/09/12/live-coverage-
iphone-x-...](https://www.macrumors.com/2017/09/12/live-coverage-iphone-x-
event/)

------
traviswingo
Off topic. I posted this same link right when the page was live and it got
flagged. This seems to be the only iPhone X link on HN now, but was posted 20
mins after mine. What caused mine to be flagged? Not mad, just curious :)

~~~
simantel
The TechCrunch/Verge links were on the home page already, so it seems they
decided to consolidate into one thread and change the link to the product
page.

------
CreMindES
For me, the tweet of the day
[https://twitter.com/moia/status/907706685266915328](https://twitter.com/moia/status/907706685266915328)
:)

------
skc
I'm wondering if it's easier or harder for cops to forcefully unlock your
phone using faceID or touchID

~~~
rosser
Cuff someone, pull their phone out of their pocket, hold it in front of their
face. "Is this your phone? Oh, it looks like it is..."

How's that Fifth Amendment thing working out for you?

EDIT: There's legal precedent that specifically says you can be compelled to
unlock your phone with your fingerprint, and that's not "testimonial" (that
is, your right against self-incrimination isn't in play). There is _zero_
reason to think FaceID will be treated any differently.

~~~
rpowers
Couldn't they do the exact same thing with your fingerprint?

~~~
rosser
Yes. FaceID just makes it easier, which was the OP's question.

------
matthberg
It's interesting how Apple is moving away from being the first phone with a
feature (face id, Samsung did that before, or oled displays that are edge to
edge). I think the shift from that innovation is a maturing step, but also a
sign that the company is aging poorly. They can no longer claim to be leading
with creation, just with quality. More and more the focus in smartphone
development, not just Apple, is on being the best of what currently exists
instead of actually bringing groundbreaking technology to the table.

~~~
acchow
Samsung does every feature first, and terribly. They hit check boxes. Apple
executes.

You could unlock Samsung phones with photographs [1]

[1] [http://www.businessinsider.com/samsung-galaxy-
note-8-facial-...](http://www.businessinsider.com/samsung-galaxy-
note-8-facial-recognition-tricked-with-a-photo-2017-9)

~~~
FireBeyond
And you could/can unlock TouchID with playdoh casts, even high res
fingerprints printed on paper... so?

~~~
theshrike79
Printing someone's photo off Facebook is trivial.

Lifting a working fingerprint and transferring it to a play-doh mold or a hi-
res printer is a whole another beast.

~~~
vilmosi
I thought it needed to be a high resolution photo?

~~~
theshrike79
For Samsung, nope. You can just open someone's profile picture on Facebook on
your phone and show it to their phone and It'll unlock (or not, just like with
their actual face).

------
yladiz
I'm impressed with the presentation and looking forward to the iPhone X. Some
features are gimmicky like the Animoji, but a lot of the new features and
upgrades are really nice. That being said I have two main gripes.

I know it kind of goes against how their Camera app and system works, but I
really wish that Apple would (or will) enable RAW shooting from within the
default Camera app. I use a separate app, besides for the special features
like level and white balance adjustment, for the RAW shooting. I feel that
it's kind of put there because it's available but they don't really care about
it -- you can tell from the fact that the Photos app doesn't properly show RAW
photos. It would be great if you could seamlessly take a photo and be able to
take and export the RAW if you enabled a flag in the settings, just like how
4K was/is hidden behind a flag.

The other gripe is now the control center is from the top, rather than the
bottom. I use the control center often when controlling music and the
flashlight and it makes it less usable for one hand. In fact, I'm wondering
how the "swipe from the bottom" will work with apps that take over that
gesture, because I run into a lot of issues with trying to open the control
center but being annoyingly overridden by the current app. I'm hopeful but
hesitant that Apple thought of this and worked out kinks regarding this.

------
cm2187
It's interesting that they are not retiring the 6s, which is now 3 generations
behind. I am not the only one refusing to buy a smartphone which requires some
dongle to listen to my music.

------
samrohn778
iPhone X has not been authorized as required by the rules of the Federal
Communications Commission. This device is not, and may not be, offered for
sale or lease, or sold or leased, until authorization is obtained. What does
this in disclaimer section means?

~~~
johnl1479
It hasn't been approved by the FCC for sale in the United States.

~~~
Markoff
It hasn't been approved by the FCC for sale.

FTFY FCC has no authority outside US

~~~
johnl1479
Yep, its a US-only restriction, hence my qualifier

------
Illniyar
I know that a ton of people swear by the iPhone, and it will probably be a hit
no matter what, but every new one that comes up all I can think of is how much
good UX they sacrificed for the shake of having a better looking product.

One button without an always on back button was already a turnoff for me, but
no button at all? at least android has swipe from the bottom.

FaceID instead of TouchId will remove a lot of use cases people got used to -
no longer answering texts in meetings anyone?

~~~
gallerdude
You can just type in your passcode, no?

------
pier25
I think those screen rounded corners and the cameras space at the top is one
of the worst ideas Apple has ever had.

When they showed a video playing in landscape I could only facepalm.

~~~
glasz
remember, on the back there's a giant bump for the camera as well...

~~~
Rapzid
That's a horrible eye-sore; probably would have been better to make the entire
phone thicker.

------
nom
So how secure is FaceID actually? It does a 3d scan like the Microsoft Kinect
and maybe gathers some more light information in the infrared sprectrum, but
that can easily be circumvented with advanced 3D printing.

They even demonstrate that it recognizes you with facial modification like a
new beard, a new haircut or a new pair of glasses.

By bet it that this technology is totally overblown and circumvented quickly.

~~~
cududa
With the Kinect "sign in to profile with your face" we made sure the person
had a heartbeat - there's minute color fluctuations in your face that actually
allow you to discern heart rate/ BPMs.

That was using primesense. Apple bought primesense. I'm sure they're doing
something similar

------
runesoerensen
Product page now up:
[https://www.apple.com/iphone-x/](https://www.apple.com/iphone-x/)

Press release: [https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2017/09/the-future-is-here-
ip...](https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2017/09/the-future-is-here-iphone-x/)

------
mrmondo
I very much appreciate the OLED high contrast, wide colour display.

I have yet not watched the release and read the technical details but I am
more than slightly concerned about “Your face becomes your password”, while
it’s obviously optional so security conscious people by no means have to use
it, I’m not confident that it’s a sensible idea to promote the widespread use
of what is known not to be a secure, private piece of information that you can
change or choose not to use.

However, in my opinion Apple is by far one of, it not the most security
conscious large corporate manufacturer of hardware and software and generally
tries to know as little about your personal data and promote encryption
(FileVault, forced phone encryption etc) as much as possible while maintaining
practical use for general public. So I am very interested to see what makes
this so different from Samsung/Google’s failed and easily bypassed face
unlocking they were very vocal about but ultimately was an embarrassing
security and PR failure.

------
amluto
The dimensions seem much more focused on aesthetics than functionality to me.
Being mostly thin doesn't seem to buy much when the camera sticks out. Why not
make it uniformly thick and increase the battery capacity?

For those of us who enjoy one handed use, the SE still seems unmatched.

------
krishicks
Has anyone seen anything about how to get it not to unlock automatically with
your face when you look at it?

I have bus times on my lock screen, one swipe to the left away. That seems to
become obsolete if the phone automatically unlocks when I look at it.

Additionally, swiping up from the bottom is the single least effective swipe
for me. Pulling up Control Center fails for me more often than not, with the
little "looking for me?" rectangular handle popping up on the bottom, and
still it doesn't work well.

I wonder also what this means for screenshots; with no Home Button to push
along with the power button, what do you do? And what do those screenshots
even look like, given the ears at the top of the display?

~~~
DennisAleynikov
It actually only unlocks but does not go home until you do the new home button
gesture which is swiping from the bottom. Nothing to be worried about

------
kevingrahl
It was said Face ID is one in a million so that means ~7500 people can unlock
my phone..

~~~
function_seven
My current PIN is 6 digits, so ~7500 can also unlock my phone on a random
guess. Chances are the first five people to try will trigger the passcode
though.

~~~
kevingrahl
Haven't checked your math but that's random guesses on an insecure password
and prevented by rate limiting, you can't just enter 7.5 billion passwords.

Face recognition (other than Face ID I mean) is fairly advanced. Let's say a
government wanted to unlock my phone they could search for similiar faces and
just pay the person. Sure a lot of trouble for unlocking a phone and it's
theoretical but it's still a flawed system in my opinion.

~~~
jpalomaki
There's no perfect solution to this problem. Secure password is too clumsy to
enter on phone many times per hour. Passcodes are easy to catch via shoulder
surfing.

~~~
kevingrahl
Sure, I see that but different users - different habits.

I manage just fine with a 25+ character random alphanumerical password that I
change at least every six months. I only use Touch ID when I'm home and am
very aware when entering my password. In the end it's just a phone but I like
to have it at somewhat secure.

------
elorant
It's funny how the thread has three times more comments that votes. It's like
everyone is in a rush to say something but they forget to upvote the story.
Shouldn't upvoting be automatic when you comment in a thread?

~~~
larodi
No, it shouldn't. Because you may still want to comment on a story, so to say
a part of it stinks in a very bad way. Something that IMHO is what most
commentators are doing here, and for reason. By no means am I going to up-vote
the latest apple bullsh*t, but will happily take time to read through the
stuff and even drop a line.

------
noncoml
I don’t see anything justifying the price bump.

~~~
briandear
Did you not see the array of cameras and sensors in the front? Or the longer
battery life? Or the 4+2 core chip? Or the reengineered OLED? Were you
actually sleeping during the announcement? Serious question.

~~~
noncoml
>Did you not see the array of cameras and sensors in the front?

If they don't add any value to me, I don't really care.

> Or the longer battery life?

Doesn't justify $300+ price bump

> Or the 4+2 core chip?

New chips come out every day and they are priced at the same price or lower
than the older generation at the day it was introduced.

> Or the reengineered OLED?

You mean the one similar to Samsung S8?

> Were you actually sleeping during the announcement? Serious question.

Why do you have to be offensive?

~~~
omg_ketchup
You asked what justified the price bump, and he told you. Whether you
care/will use the things that are raising the price is irrelevant. If you have
no need for those features, then buy the cheaper version.

~~~
noncoml
The price of products is more a function of the perceived value for the
consumer, than a sum of the cost of the components.

Adding more expensive components to a phone, doesn't make its value go up if
it doesn't add some extra functionality or durability or something.

The array of components for FaceID are just replacing TouchID, so for the
consumer the net value is 0.

I don't care what they have to add to make it work, what matters to me as a
consumer, is what value I get out of it. And at the moment it looks like a net
of 0.

You see why I say "I don't care"?

------
captainmuon
...and all I wonder is why they are skipping number 9? Are the negative
connotations some culture? iPhone NEIN?

With Windows 9, there was at least the explanation that software might confuse
it with Windows 9x (which I didn't buy, since there is view api returning the
version as a string, and Windows shims GetVersion if you don't declare
compatibility anyway).

More on topic, this looks nice, I think people will not be disappointed like
they were with the MBPs. Can't wait to try it in a store (and probably can't
afford it either...). Edit: no touch ID?? Might have spoken too quickly...

~~~
egypturnash
Probably because it's been ten years since the original iPhone, and they feel
this one's far enough from the original to merit the version bump.

They may also be trying to indicate that they feel this iPhone is on a par
with OSX for productivity or something.

~~~
Apocryphon
It's more succinct than Tenth Anniversary iPhone Edition, I suppose.

------
aphextron
I'm pretty impressed and blown away honestly that Apple chose to support Qi
wireless charging over coming up with some proprietary nonsense. This might be
the killer feature that finally gets me to upgrade.

~~~
sengork
I am guessing this had something to do with Steve Jobs no longer being there.
More freedom for choosing technologies.

~~~
sengork
Would genuinely love to know the reasoning behind the negative votes. Steve's
departure has certainly changed the company in the past.

~~~
grzm
I suspect only because speculation alone is getting to be tiresome at this
point. There are so many comments that say this or that about how Apple isn't
the same because Steve Jobs isn't there. What _would_ be interesting is
someone really digging into this, looking many different aspects of Apple
since it's inception. Otherwise it's just not substantive and can come off as
lazy at this point.

Like I said, that's all speculation. From what I can tell based on the shade
of gray of your comment, you received at most a couple of down votes. It's
really hard to distinguish between something meaningful and noise here,
particularly in a hot-topic thread like this one. At the end of the day, I
think I'd just make a small mental note but otherwise just chalk it up as
collateral damage in a heated thread.

~~~
sengork
Interesting nevertheless, appreciate your reply.

This is the first time Apple have given in to OLED displays and wireless
charging (and a standardised one even) - both relatively old technologies [1]
which were at their disposal during Steve's time.

From what I've seen the corporate secrecy at Apple will make such conclusive
investigation next to impossible. What I often think of is NeXT and Steve's
return that saved Apple in the 1990s.

[1]
[http://www.gsmarena.com/qualcomm_taunts_apple_list_android_f...](http://www.gsmarena.com/qualcomm_taunts_apple_list_android_firsts-
news-27223.php)

------
limeblack
Features I'm curious how they work on the new iPhone.

1) Touch status bar to scroll to the top of the page(my favorite iPhone
feature).

2) Locking the screen. I'm assuming the double tap and Siri don't interfere
with this.

~~~
wrboyce
To add to this, the "reachability" feature where I double-touch the home
button to bring the top half of the screen into reach.

------
jasonjayr
In the disclaimer:

> iPhone X is splash, water, and dust resistant and was tested under
> controlled laboratory conditions with a rating of IP67 under IEC standard
> 60529. Splash, water, and dust resistance are not permanent conditions and
> resistance might decrease as a result of normal wear. Do not attempt to
> charge a wet iPhone; refer to the user guide for cleaning and drying
> instructions. Liquid damage not covered under warranty.

I wish they had enough confidence in their water resistance that they would
cover water damage to some degree in the warranty ...

------
ransom1538
Hey question. Currently, if an officer has you under arrest they go through
your phone. With a strong password, they tend to give up. With FaceID wont
they just put it to your face and unlock it?

~~~
rezashirazian
I think it won't unlock if you close your eyes.

~~~
romanovcode
They can always beat you until you give your password.

------
crsmithdev
So...wait, wasn't one of the biggest selling points of the (awful) Touch Bar
on the latest MBP that it could use Touch ID? And a few months later they are
moving away from that entirely?

~~~
smileysteve
Reportedly, they couldn't get it to work through the display (bezel-less) (and
they didn't put it on the back)

------
Mikho
The notch is really not that good UX. All that elaborations and tricks to show
it or hide, to fit in there notifications. If you go bezel-less, one of the
best options now is Xiaomi Mi Mix 2. There are already reviews on YouTube. I'd
say it is the best configuration yet for that type of a phone. Also, it's
worth to consider that it is already the second iteration after the first Mi
Mix.

[http://www.mi.com/mix2/](http://www.mi.com/mix2/)

------
hungerstrike
How do you get to the home screen?

For instance if I'm using an app right now I hit the home button and it take
me to my home screen with all of my app icons. How do I do this on the iPhone
X?

~~~
duckarmada
You swipe up from the bottom.

------
pow_pp_-1_v
Being that it is the 10th anniversary, I was hoping they will come out with
something ground-breaking. iPhone X seems like a good phone. But it's just a
better iPhone 7.

------
patzol
Although iPhone X is a beautiful device and depth camera will have many
innovative applications, I'm so disappointed with iPhone 8(plus). There is
barely any difference with iPhone 7(plus). As for wireless charging - seems
like charging pad will be available only next year and you will have to spend
extra money. Considering rumored problems with iPhone X production and
starting shipping it beginning november I would expect their year to year
sales go down.

------
RayVR
Given how painfully slow wireless charging is, I'd prefer they go for the
rapid charging feature. May not be as sexy but it's way more useful.

~~~
dolguldur
Fast charging was listed as a feature

~~~
ianburrell
From the footnote, fast charging works with the USB-C chargers. That means it
is possible it supports USB-PD like the iPad Pro. It does mean that fast
charging requires the Apple 29W charger. But should also work with any USB-C
charger.

------
Taniwha
I'm going to train future face recognition phone to only work if I close one
eye and stick my tongue out ... the border guards will never guess

------
mrfusion
If it's using steel does that mean it will be magnetnetic?

That would be neat to attach it to my wall. And it would open up a lot of
options for car holders.

~~~
komali2
I grew up in a time when "Magnets + Screens = NO! BAD!" Is this not the case
anymore? Like, I get freaked out when my girlfriend attaches her magnetized
Surface Pro pen to her SP4. Even the macbook magnetized chargers freak me out.
Is this just poorly learned behavior that's no longer relevant?

------
swsh
By not marketing it as a replacement for the 7, Apple has managed to
significantly bump the price of the device with barely anyone the wiser.
Anyone hazard a guess at the increase in apples profit margin on the X. The
price appears to have gone up significantly, for a comparatively small
increase in BOM cost.

Even if you question their design decisions, it's hard to fault their product
strategy

------
mrsmee89
Perhaps the UX needs to be felt in person but it feels like a way worse UX
than before. It seems Apple is losing sight of the question which IMO should
define the choices we make when it comes to technology. Does it make peoples
lives better? I don't see how this phone does. It feels like apple made
something for the purpose of making people want it. It's un-apple like.

------
deedubaya
Say what you want about practicality, the facial tracking on this is pretty
impressive..... aaannnd Apple uses it to give us the Poop Animoji.

------
mrfusion
How do you check notifications with your face? Or switch songs while jogging?
Seems like it would unlock as soon as you look at it?

~~~
ppeetteerr
You can lift it or tap the screen to show the locked screen. Your face will
only unlock the device, it will not bring up the home screen.

------
wffurr
Seems crazy that they have no less than eight models of iPhone available at
once:
[https://www.apple.com/iphone/compare/](https://www.apple.com/iphone/compare/)

Why are the 6S and 6S Plus still there? Why no love for the iPhone SE? It's
now two entire generations of processor behind.

------
nunez
Re: black bar. For what it's worth, folks that reviewed the Essential Phone
said that the notch on the top does "go away" after using it for a few days.

What I am more disappointed about is Apple not going with a curved display. It
looks _amazing_ on the S8 and taking it edge to edge would have made for an
incredible bezel-less illusion.

------
Karunamon
I really don't see the extra $300 justification between this and the regular
iPhone 8. A slightly better screen and better camera with otherwise similar
specs. Edge to edge and face scanning emojis are _neat_ , but I just can't
justify that kind of spend for it.

That, and I'm not all that jazzed about Face ID. Seems less secure than touch.

~~~
jamesrcole
> between this and the regular iPhone 8. A slightly better screen ... with
> otherwise similar specs

The screen is a fair bit larger

~~~
Karunamon
Not appreciably more than the 7+

[https://9to5mac.com/2017/09/06/iphone-8-compared-to-
iphone-7...](https://9to5mac.com/2017/09/06/iphone-8-compared-to-
iphone-7-plus/)

More PPI sure, but I think we reached the point of diminishing returns a while
ago.

(Ignore the headline - the opening image is an X set next to a 7+)

~~~
jamesrcole
I was responding to someone comparing it to the standard model, not the plus
models. See the text I quoted, and see their original comment.

------
jnwatson
Wouldn't Face ID allow a stolen phone to be easily unlocked? Just put the
stolen phone in a different container (with a hole for the camera/sensors) and
point it at the victim.

My daughter likes to "steal" my phone to play games on it. With touch ID, she
can't. She wouldn't have a problem if the phone has Face ID.

~~~
nardi
They said during the announcement that you have to be looking at the phone for
it to unlock.

~~~
dullgiulio
Then you put in a container with something small written on it ;)

------
dylan-m
So does it bug anyone else that the status bar around the notch looks
misaligned? The rounded corners make me feel think it's sticking out past the
bottom of the notch, and there's this huge empty space above it. Especially
weird with the clock. Maybe it's one of those things that looks better in
person.

------
VeejayRampay
I don't understand why the website keeps repeating "it's all screen" even
though the phone is not all screen. I own a entry-level Motorola G5S, never
owned a Samsung before so not fanboying here, but their phones strike me more
as "all screen" than this iPhone X. Am I missing something?

------
Bogi30
Price of this phone wtf is this in my country cost 1200 euro this cheaper
version :/ [http://blendberg.com/pl/oferta-bazy-danych-gotowe-bazy-
danyc...](http://blendberg.com/pl/oferta-bazy-danych-gotowe-bazy-danych-baza-
firm-europejskich-dania)

------
raesene9
I do hope Apple have got this facial recognition stuff right, but personally
I'm skeptical that it'll be better than TouchID.

For me, from reading previously leaks, this feels like a compromise where
design (we want a phone that's all screen) wins out over usuability (TouchID
is great for usuable security)

------
kristjankalm
> The most powerful and smartest chip ever in a smartphone, with a neural
> engine that’s capable of up to 600 billion operations per second.

sorry but "neural engine" is just too funny. i mean there's normal levels of
bullshit bingo and then there's branding your chip "neural engine".

------
Viper007Bond
Bummer about the size. The Plus is a monster to me and I prefer the pocket-
happy size of my regular 6.

------
makecheck
I kind of wish the "home screen line" at the bottom was a big long thick
rounded line to mirror the notch on top. That would make the notch a lot less
jarring. In the screenshots the "normal" UI seems to never use the bottom
space anyway.

------
maruhan2
Rather off-topic question. How do you make an animation via scrolling like
their "X"?

~~~
syspec
Scale an element up (the X), while scaling another down (the device). Place
both inside a position fixed/sticky container and interpolate between
scaleStart scaleEnd as a ratio of how much has scrolled.

More to it than that from what I see here, but that will get you started

------
johnward
As an Android user I'm still kind of interested in this phone. One thing that
bothers me on most phones is the camera sticking out the back. It ends up
being the point of contact to every surface you sit it on and sometimes the
camera glass breaks.

------
mementomori
Someone can drug me and hold the phone in front of my unconscious face to
access all my data?

~~~
artursapek
Same goes for your fingerprint, surely?

~~~
subhero
or for for anything, really?

(mandatory [https://xkcd.com/538/](https://xkcd.com/538/))

------
yellowapple
Didn't we already learn 20 years ago that if an Apple product ends in an X,
virtually nobody will actually say it like the X is a Roman numeral?

Or am I a transplant from that weird parallel universe with "Mack Oh Ess Ecks"
and the Berenstein Bears?

------
amelius
Why don't we have unlock you phone with your watch? Or unlock a desktop with
your watch? Or enter a password on a website with your watch?

Sounds more useful and secure to me than any fingerprint/facial scanner. And
it allows Apple to sell more watches.

~~~
mattacular
Wouldn't that involve implementing some sort of remote unlocking scheme which
is basically what Apple publicly fought/denied the FBI?

------
nojvek
I'm just excited the GPU'S are getting faster in a mobile device. I really
wanted Apple to have more pixel density in their iPhone X. 2000+ do would mean
that we can wear an iPhone as a head set and have a descent VR experience.

------
Jyaif
I love how for their demo they selected videos where it was dark where the
screen bump is.

------
LouisSayers
And in future news:

"Celebrity gets iPhone stolen. Naked photos unlocked at wax museum." :D

------
B1FF_PSUVM
I'm still sorry for the things we'll be missing with the loss of Metro Design,
now lying in its deathbed in Windows 10 Mobile.

Wish Apple had the balls to just plain steal it, the iPhone home screen
nowadays seems from last century.

------
callesgg
That is some extraordinary marketing.

I just want it. But i know i have absolutely no need for it.

------
rpowers
So many people pre-complaining about some actually neat stuff. The screen
looks fine, stoked about the HDR10. Portraits will looks really nice. Wireless
charging is a big plus. I think this will be a great phone.

------
dopamean
I turned off the stream because I needed to get back to work. Did they say
anything about security for FaceID? Such as where the data about your face is
stored. Or what about just holding up a photo of someone?

~~~
SOLAR_FIELDS
It's all stored locally on the phone. I don't think they mentioned whether
there will still be a "panic" button which forces passcode unlock.

~~~
theshrike79
The "panic" is an iOS 11 feature, not phone specific in any way.

------
alex_duf
The OLED screen and the gesture based UI makes me think about the Nokia N9.

Loved that phone.

------
myrandomcomment
Meh. I still have a 6P. I will pick up used 7 now (as there is always a ton
for sale after a new iPhone) so I can use the NFC for the Tokyo subway. The
face thing to unlock to pay is a non-starter for me.

------
riazrizvi
It would be awesome if they could use the facial recognition feature to
eliminate the problem with spurious landscape/portrait mode switches when you
are lying in bed, reading the phone at an angle.

------
darrmit
Even prior to the leak it seemed (to me) like it would be hard to improve on
the 6s/7, and the keynote confirmed it.

From wireless charging to FaceID it just feels like a bunch of incremental,
gimmick-y changes.

~~~
alkonaut
The screen is the big deal. It's quite a lot better. Oled. Ridiculous dpi.

But the problem with that is that the regular iPhone screen is unbelievably
good already. Why would people pay so much for the improvement?

------
banach
I was surprised not to see a reconstruction of your own face as one of the
animoji options. More than a novelty, it could be very valuable possession to
a family member, after someone passes away.

------
sigjuice
They already butchered the MacBook Pro with the TouchBar last year. And all
for a 30 second demo during the keynote. Here's hoping that FaceID actually
works and isn't FacePalmID :/

------
danijelb
FaceID shows the difference between Apple and other smartphone manufacturers.
Apple doesn't release features until they are absolutely sure they can
engineer them to work perfectly.

~~~
NicoJuicy
And it failed in the demo...

~~~
danijelb
Well, the beauty of presentations... Touch ID also fails sometimes. The
important thing is that your finger can't unlock my phone.

------
halfnibble
Swipe gestures, a steel frame, and a higher ppi screen. It sounds like the
iPhone may have finally caught up with my BlackBerry Passport SE. Maybe I'll
give the iPhoneX a try.

~~~
kk_cz
Who knows, maybe in few years we'll have the "first ever" smartphone with
physical keyboard

------
Tomte
First thought: how well can they discern in the mail app whether I wanted to
scroll down or go to the home screen?

I probably have to swipe carefully from the very bottom or stay away from the
bottom?

~~~
hbosch
The bar is as low as today's iPhone home button. I have a strong feeling you
will hardly ever reach it by accident, considering scrolling from a point that
low is unnatural and uncomfortable.

Also, there is always a big obvious bar down there.

------
nodesocket
Do we have any idea what carriers like Verizon will charge to lease the X? I
am currently paying $109 all in for 4GB of data and unlimited calls and txt.
Phone is iPhone 7 128GB.

------
syntaxing
I'm pretty curious about the new AI chip that Apple might put in their phone.
If the integration with Core ML works well, it might lead to a series of new
interesting apps.

------
humbleMouse
Another reason to keep using my iphone-5s. New phones are way too big, and I
love the home button. If I was forced to upgrade I'd get the iphone 7 se (the
mini one)

~~~
listic
It's rather the 6s one. Still, I hope they will upgrade it in future. Also,
I'm sure they will release scaled-down version of the X in time; it's just
easier/cheaper for them to release a bigger iPhone first.

------
jtl999
I hope the OLED display used in the iPhone X doesn't use PWM, unlike Samsung.

LG OLED TV's seem nice as well, although I haven't looked at them for a long
period of time.

~~~
kasabali
Good luck with that considering they're using Samsung panels.

------
zeep
"Our vision has always been to create an iPhone that is entirely screen"

so the iPhone 2x will have no speaker or camera in the front... or they will
be behind the screen.

------
RayVR
I can't wait for someone to pick up my phone, point it at my face and have it
unlock. Hope it has a "User sleeping, can't unlock" feature.

~~~
mbroncano
During the keynote they mentioned this particular case, and they claimed it
does have such a feature.

------
ocdtrekkie
The Animoji thing is surprisingly neat. I was all prepped to make fun of it
when they put the name on the screen, but that's just... really really neat.

~~~
sprite
Seems completely useless to me. Apple has lost it's focus. I'm thinking of
switching to Android for the first time since iPhone 3G. The only reason I'm
still on iOS is for iMessage/Facetime.

~~~
osxrand
I feel that Apple knows exactly what it's doing with this feature. There is a
strong pull with iMessage for 15-25 year olds in schools, the kind of market
something like this will go over pretty well with and potentially create more
lock in to their message platform. Along with all the other photo apps that
will take advantage of this tech. You could even just look at the Animoji as a
tech preview for all the other devs.

~~~
christoph
Exactly. The Snapchat demo was evidence of how this will be opened up to
developers.

The new photo features clearly showed how it will be used by the Instagram
crowd as well.

------
jimbert
How do Muslim women that cover their faces use this phone?

~~~
umanwizard
You don't have to turn FaceID on -- you can continue using a normal passcode.

------
pi-rat
So, how do you snap a screenshot without the home button?

~~~
Tempest1981
[https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/298203/how-to-
take...](https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/298203/how-to-take-a-
screenshot-on-iphone-x)

------
martijn_himself
I'm more than happy to pay £1k for the iPhone X if it docks and I'm able to
use it as a Mac Mini running MacOS. It should be powerful enough.

------
forgot-my-pw
What exactly is a bionic chip? Is it just the codename?

~~~
scarlac
It's a CPU+GPU+ML-optimized chip. I'd say "Bionic" is a bit of a stretch from
the marketing department but it's likely a reference to the neural network
capabilities which are modeled after biology.

------
oliv__
So with FaceId being able to unlock my phone at any time, does that mean it
will be filming everything, all the time, waiting to detect a face?

------
liberte82
I can already tell I'm soon going to be very tired of the word _notch_. It's
starting to feel like the tartlets from Seinfeld.

------
brailsafe
Anyone else experience major issues with the website? It's inscrutable to me
with the scroll based parallax nonsense breaking horribly.

------
amelius
It seems the camera sticks out at the back. This would mean it's not possible
to put the phone stably on a flat surface. Is this true?

------
mads
..

~~~
scarlac
Fellow Scandinavian here. Apple has talked a lot about privacy and security in
last couple of years, both on stage and off stage. I'd even go as far ans say
it's probably one of the topics they've been most vocal about off-stage.

What's your specific privacy concern in relation to the presentation given?

------
LeicaLatte
The only way to stop someone from unlocking your device by just pointing it at
your face is to close your eyes. Dealbreaker.

------
perseusprime11
How many folks thought the bezel up top is weird? They should have captured
the screen space for something else.

------
heliumcraft
What's the point of the iPhone 8? It's essentially an upgrade to the iphone 7S
and that's all.

~~~
xxkylexx
It's Apple's way of transitioning to a higher price point on their phones. Now
they have the iPhone X at $1000 but oh, there's still have this iPhone 8 at
the lower price point... I'm betting next year there is no more lower price
point and the new standard is $1000 phones.

------
dade_
Finally, wireless charging, they even support standard Qi, but how are they
making Qi work like a power mat?

~~~
bdcravens
I thought they said it wasn't a standard, but they are working to eventually
add it to Qi

------
tanilama
No desire to buy one. Even it is well within my range of purchase power, this
shit is expensive as hell.

------
Dravidian
People who use 1000$ iPhoneX on office desk need another 400$ apple Watch to
check for notifications.

------
iamwil
Just checking, this isn't with a see-through glass, right? The phone isn't
translucent.

~~~
kayoone
No, A See-through phone is something Robert Scoble predicted since last year,
but i never bought his hype and even the AR stuff is not really ground
breaking.

~~~
nicky0
Did he also predict see-through batteries and chips?

------
masterleep
I'd pay $200 to get rid of the haptic home button. Always hated the feel of
that thing.

------
gigatexal
what a whole lot of meh regarding the Iphone X. The watch series 3 though,
that I am getting.

------
billconan
Does anybody know if there is an api to access the raw depth data of the
truedepth camera?

------
d--b
Everybody is discussing the features like they've already bought it. But I
find that literally none of the features of the X make sense over the 7, or
the 6 even. Maybe a lot of people said this before but to me that's it. The
iPhone X event should be remembered as the event when Apple jumped the shark.

~~~
valine
The A11 is a massive leap forward over the 6 and 7, that alone is a pretty big
reason to upgrade.

------
rurban
Did they botch the Mac Air upgrade similar to the Pro now? Or is it still
usable?

------
jlarocco
Meh. I'm surprised they bumped the version to "X" for this.

Not every release can be amazing, but this is just an incremental hardware
upgrade with some features taken out.

Meanwhile, they haven't fixed any of the most infuriating and annoying iOS
bugs, and don't seem to have any plans to do so...

------
hatcherdogg
Great concept. I'll take the revised XS later, and an 8 now.

------
drama-queen
Telescreen X! Now with an improved backdoor!! Buy now!!!

------
limaoscarjuliet
Does face recognition mean my twin brother can use my phone to pay for his
beer?

BTW, wondering how fast until there is "3D print you GF face so you can unlock
her phone" service. I see Ali Express business booming.

~~~
ericlewis
they explicitly talk about how they worked with extremely detailed mask makers
to ensure that sort of thing doesn't happen.

------
nadim
Huge shout out to RZA, for making it into that Keynote.

------
miguelrochefort
iPhone X starts at $1,516.85 in Canada (after taxes)...

------
mtgx
Did the FaceID just fail on stage for Craig Federighi?

~~~
justusthane
No, it didn't. The screen said "Enter PIN to enable Face ID." The phone had
been rebooted, and a password is required first. Same as TouchID. He failed,
FaceID did not.

------
perseusprime11
They should rename this to iPhone N (N for Notch).

------
retox
No information about RAM or CPU speed/cores?

------
amelius
> Our vision has always been to create an iPhone that is entirely screen.
> (...) Say hello to the future.

Haven't we seen such phones from other companies already a thousand times
over?

------
trhway
I think Jobs would be throwing it into aquarium until the black notch bar is
removed. After looking at those photos the notch is pain in the eyes and pure
abomination.

------
sarang23592
Will iphone X have passcode along with FaceId

~~~
singularity2001
yes

------
nnd
With all that hype building up, I was hoping they would introduce something
less underwhelming than an iPhone without a home button like you know... a new
wearable.

~~~
Tempest1981
New watch with cellular: [https://www.apple.com/apple-watch-
series-3/](https://www.apple.com/apple-watch-series-3/)

------
snowpanda
Face ID seems like a great way to build a global database of people's faces.
Not saying they will, but if they wanted to, that would be the way to do it.

~~~
theshrike79
Apple isn't Google, they have no interest in having a global fingerprint or
face database.

Everything is done on device and the device is sealed tight enough to make
hacking impractical for everyone except for state level actors.

------
aeleos
Lol the first Face ID demo had some issues

~~~
saagarjha
The phone had been rebooted and thus required a passcode to unlock.

------
TekMol
Both the 8 and the X have the pressure sensitivity "3D Touch". Is that
actually useful? To the HN users with iPhones: Do you use it?

~~~
jitl
3D Touch (before called Force Touch) has been in Apple products since 2014. I
use it all the time on iPhone 7S, it's a regular part of interacting with the
operating system:

\- force touch an image to view fullscreen

\- force touch app icons to open a quick menu

\- force touch buttons in Control Center to open a menu

It's like a quicker touch-and-hold action in other operating systems, although
sometimes there's also a touch-and-hold action in iOS which can be annoying.

------
LeicaLatte
Expecting the iPhone X to be delayed beyond November. The phone isn't cooked
enough yet and I think they have announced it prematurely.

------
SadWebDeveloper
Face ID bypass will sure be available Nov 4-5

Also wonder if this "security feature" is NSA-approved, m pretty sure it is.

------
Multicomp
I can't wait to see the Youtube videos of people 'taking a selfie' just to
unlock their iPhones

------
mzzter
Wow, it's not aluminum..

------
bluetomcat
Infrared rays striking your eyes and face each time you look at your phone?
Health implications?

~~~
nardi
Infrared light is all around you all the time. I'd assume the intensity levels
here are extremely safe.

------
fokinsean
But where's iphone 9

~~~
jhatax
Base-8 encoding: ... 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, ...

:-)

~~~
dolguldur
That would be base-9 though

------
alexnewman
Welp staying with my SE

------
tinhangliu
Am I the only person not excited about the iPhone since the release of the 4s?

~~~
randomfinn
Considering their market share, a lot of people have never been excited about
them.

I think the iPhone excitement is mostly a US thing. For a lot of people here,
it was the first smartphone they saw - or even their first mobile device.

It's hard to get excited about iPhones when you're used to more modern
technology.

------
ricokatayama
Rounded Corners, Rounded Corners Everywhere!

Let's watch Spider-Man with a rounded screen

------
oregondan
That's funny, Apple pulled a Microsoft and skipped 9 ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

------
ratsz
geometric data is a username, not a password

------
thomastjeffery
So a neutered 2K screen, and an x% faster APU...

How is this worth over $999?

------
Exuma
What do you do if you want to go to a costume party? Lol

------
nickpp
Is it Pentile?!

------
drcongo
Can we call that notch what it is please, a monobrow.

------
aphextron
Back glass...

------
jorgemf
when the iPhone X SE?

~~~
fenwick67
Iphone X One SE Plus

~~~
jorgemf
No plus, minus please. I am tired of big phones

------
lightedman
Goodbye privacy? A phone that can be unlocked with your face = easy enough for
cops to snoop on you. No need for a password, just taking your phone and
pointing it at your face unlocks it.

~~~
theshrike79
Or just pointing your finger at the sensor unlocks it. Same difference.

Or you can use the "panic" mode on iOS11 and force it to ask for a passcode.

~~~
lightedman
Most regular users of iOS products know very little about these kinds of
features, they just enable these things without thinking, then I have to
explain why its bad. I have this exact kind of talk every other day on a
regular basis.

~~~
lightedman
Looks like the truth hurt the majority of you too much. This is fact in the
life of an electronics repair tech, so much so that it should be written as a
law. Most users have ZERO CLUE. They don't read a manual. They piddle around
until they get what they want working and tend to stop there, and go no
further.

Oh, and panic mode? Cop sees you doing that, you've obviously got something to
hide and they can act then and there. Not a very smart move.

This is reality. You may not like it, but you're part of the reason it is what
it is.

------
widowlark
This just in: Apple releases the Samsung Galaxy S8, calls it an iPhone

~~~
Jeremy1026
Would you say the same thing in reverse if Apple's event was a month earlier?
These things have been in work for more than the past month.

~~~
zuminator
What difference does a month make? The S8's been out since April.

~~~
Jeremy1026
Apologies, did a quick google for Galaxy S8 Announcement and saw August 7th,
didn't realize that was for the S8 Active.

------
miguelrochefort
\- Ugly notch

\- No USB-C

\- Gimmicky features

\- Protruding camera

\- $999

~~~
LoSboccacc
I really don't get the notches. They're extra ugly, they put the sensor in a
vulnerable position and are basically there so that they can claim a thinner
phone forcing user to fatten it again with ugly plastic cases just to have the
phone rest flat

------
gshakir
Face ID = Where the camera watches you all the time.

------
gshakir
Apple Watch is the new iPhone. The iPhone is becoming a home computer. Watch
it.

~~~
saagarjha
I'd say iPad is Apple's vision for the home computer.

------
HugoDaniel
Does it mean that the next version will be called Iphony ?

~~~
alfonsodev
they can also go XL, XXL, XXXL and so on :p

~~~
HugoDaniel
or even XI XII XII. Hail caesar or something.

------
madshiva
$ 1200 for a brick and people still buy this crap phone. All people who buy
this phone should be ashamed. Stop wasting the earth. Thanks.

------
pluma
Interesting how they decided to already publish the article although they have
nothing more than the teaser but no actual content.

> So what does a decade of iPhone innovation look like?

> _Developing… Please refresh for updates._

------
sccxy
Keynote is quite boring after so many leaks.

------
xvolter
Are they aware that "Surgical‑grade stainless steel" means extremely cheap?
Surgical‑grade stainless steel is designed to be single-use. They advertise
their phone as having steel that is good enough to use once?

~~~
tener
Aren't surgery tools supposed to last years of use?

~~~
kuschku
Sterilizing surgical tools is extremely expensive, and not good enough. You
can sterilize some tools, for some purposes, but usually that doesn’t remove
all contaminants.

So surgical tools are instead produced for single time use, and after that
recycled, to ensure they’re always sterile.

EDIT: For example, with scalpels, you can remove and replace the blade, and do
exactly that after every use. Removing and replacing the blade looks like
this: [https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-
dc86caa627022bbfb7e6b4...](https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-
dc86caa627022bbfb7e6b4a356ccba18-c)

~~~
monocasa
What? Can't you just throw them in an autoclave?

~~~
kuschku
You can remove some contaminants in an autoclave, but others surprisingly
survive, and would contaminate the next patient.

So stuff like scalpels, for example, is recycled after every single use.

Even such simple things as prions actually already require far more
complicated autoclaves than you’d expect.

~~~
CydeWeys
I would expect prions to be harder to sterilize than bacteria, actually.
Prions aren't even alive.

~~~
ciniglio
They are much harder to sterilize, and autoclaves don't work. Ideally you'd
dispose all tools exposed to prions, but if that's infeasible, the CDC
recommends an autoclave in a bath of NaOH.

[https://www.cdc.gov/prions/cjd/infection-
control.html](https://www.cdc.gov/prions/cjd/infection-control.html)

------
veeragoni
The phone is definitely 2017. But I would like to condemn those who say its
futuristic. Whats so futuristic about it?! is it foldable? Is it wearable?
Does it generate holographic images, Does it at least project to wall for
larger display? Does the battery lasts a week? They could have placed a
touchID on the back(well, may be next iPhone). You might say, I am asking way
too much in 2017. Yes I am! Thats why its not futuristic.

------
blaincate
Just Realized : Face recognition unlock : Biggest Security Scare

\- Case 1 : Imagine crossing security check or border crossing. Guards just
take your phone and point it to you : UNLOCKED . No need to resis to give
passwd

\- Case 2 : drug the activist and point unconscious victim ! Voila !

\- Case 3 : Steal the phone, and change the cover and flash it in front of the
real owner !

could go on and on ...

~~~
kevinchen
All these problems exist with fingerprints too. At least Face ID requires you
to look at the phone before it unlocks.

------
potrebitel
Developing… Please refresh for updates.

Obviously the "hype" for a new iphone is still up & running since there is a
thread for not yet officially announced device...

~~~
thsowers
> Obviously the "hype" for a new iphone is still up & running since there is a
> thread for not yet officially announced device...

Doesn't Apple announcing it at their "Special Event" count as an officially
announced device?

~~~
potrebitel
It does, but at the moment the post was put online, there is nothing official,
except the name. Hence "this is iphone X" looks like a placeholder for a
future event.

"Please refresh for updates"

Besides there is a new thread (
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15229902](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15229902)
) for the same subject - nothing offcially started, yet several threads for
it.

Anyway, it will be fun to see if this one will hit 1000+ comments :)

------
AndrewKemendo
I really wanted to see this turn the iPhone X into the primary computer for
all things - replace the MBP and the iPad line. Dock to screen/keyboard etc...
so that everything is just running off of the phone.

That would be a perfect jump off point to AR glasses with the phone as the
computing engine in 2020.

It would let Apple re-focus, kill a bunch of product lines and swallow the
market with a singular device + robust peripheral market.

------
45h34jh53k4j
I am not interested in the X model without TouchID. FaceID provides a less
secure authentication method than TouchID.

* Sleeping victims * Attacker holds the phone to your face

Its not as simple as using the 'wrong finger'. You only have one face.

This is awful, Apple. What were you thinking?

~~~
Flockster
You have to actively look at the display to unlock it. So sleeping wouldn't
work.

~~~
josefresco
What about if you're dead? Would law enforcement, medics and/or family be able
to use your (recently) deceased face to unlock? Would that be legal?

