
Towards a bra-free Instagram experience - koolhead17
https://medium.com/@laurenhallden/towards-a-bra-free-instagram-experience-3e43273b611f
======
saurik
> Do men on Instagram contend with this many half-naked dudes and their butts
> all the time? I really want to know.

I really feel for this comment, as women are hyper-sexualized and we have a
broken culture of stuff that optimizes for the male gaze, and so this is a
common complaint.

But this isn't about sexuality, this is about insecurity. These specific ads
are only showing skin so they can hit a weak spot in the viewer and break them
down to buy stuff.

The same patriarchal cultural BS about what it means to be a real woman also
exists as a pressure against men, it just leads to a different set of
insecurities.

Example: _I_ feel insecure about losing my hair. I still _have_ hair... and it
shouldn't really matter?... but it is thinning :/; and, when I think about it,
it makes me sad.

(edit:) To be clear, I mean the kind of "sad" where every time I see myself in
a mirror and every time I wash my hair and even if my hair falls a weird way,
it hits me. It is an ever-pervasive "insecurity" in my life that I fight with
every day, and where I am dreading what it will be like in another two or
three years :/.

I manage to forget about it a lot, or even get to a place where I look at
myself in a mirror and am like "this is fine... I don't mind how I look today,
so I am happy"

But like, one day, I decided to research products and procedures designed to
prevent or hide hair loss. I spent hours on it. I didn't end up deciding to do
anything.

But the Internet remembers. The Internet now knows that I have an insecurity,
and people with an insecurity are profitable. People like me are why ads make
money :/.

So now, every few damned days, while going through my Instagram "stories", I
am given a sponsored interstitial ad for hair loss prevention products and
services.

Fuck you, Instagram.

~~~
rayiner
> The same patriarchal cultural BS about what it means to be a real woman also
> exists as a pressure against men, it just leads to a different set of
> insecurities.

I think that's a false equivalence. I'm hoping not to lose my hair, but I also
kind of don't give a shit. I didn't grow up with society telling me how
important it was to "look my best so I feel my best!" How often do you think
Bill Gates thinks about his liver spots? John McCain probably hasn't thought
of his hairline in decades. Because society really does not give a shit what
men look like, unless they're in one of the few fields where looking good is
part of their job.

The closest correspondence is maybe with the focus on guys being good at
sports. Yeah, that kind of sucked in middle school, but it's been two decades
since anyone cared whether I could make a basket. Heck, even if I was great at
basketball now, nobody would give a shit.

~~~
nostrademons
The closest correspondence is men being financially successful, along with all
the skills and status symbols that entails.

Notice that we're providing free content marketing for an organization whose
value proposition is "we'll help you get rich". Men are not immune at all.

~~~
rayiner
Not remotely similar. Men have pressure to be employed, but there is a ton of
acceptance and even glorification of average men with average jobs. There is
nothing shameful and even something honorable in being an “average Joe.”
Contrast with how we treat average looking women. We don’t say “you’re average
looking and that’s fine.” We say “everyone is beautiful.” Thats not
acceptance, it’s misdirection. That’s not how we treat men. Nobody would say
to men: “everyone is rich.” That’d be stupid and untrue. But with women we
rely on misdirection so we don’t have to confront the fact that we place so
much emphasis on how women look.

------
ACow_Adonis
First, the obvious lesson: everyone install an ad blocker.

Secondly, my own anecdote: at work I cannot install an ad blocker, nor manage
other aspects of being tracked online.

As part of that employment, I recently had to do some research on equity-
release products/reverse mortgages. These are products targeted at the
elderly.

I am not elderly, despite what my 20 year old sister in-law might say :p

My workplace online advertising experience has now become an endless
omnipresent stream of older couples looking wistfully out into the sunset,
perhaps on a boat or over an ocean, or smiling lovingly into each others faces
in that aspirational retirement way, always with the message: sell us the
equity in your home so your life can be like this.

And it's not just instagram. It's following me everywhere.

Anecdote 2:my mother before she died, was basically a paranoid schizophrenic.
Imagine, for a second, the subjective experience the internet advertising
system has on these people and their families.

I had an eye opening conversation with her a few years ago, where she
proclaimed that "they" were watching her through the computer, and she knew
because of the coincidences in how the content changed across the internet to
target her specifically.

I had the failed experience of trying to explain what was going on, and the
observation that, dismally, she was essentially, on some level, right. The
ability to make a mentally ill person's ramblings essentially correct is a
sobering dystopian realization...

~~~
lzecon
How are you supposed to install an ad blocker on an app?

~~~
ACow_Adonis
Well, indeed. If you can't find a way to go one-level-up, that is to say,
blocking at a router/network, hardware, or OS whitelist/blacklist type
situation, i'd respond that the responsible thing to do is to blacklist the
app.

I realise of course that not everyone will like that response, but i'd also
say as non-flippantly as possible, that mature responsibility is, almost by
definition, not participating in things you might otherwise wish to because of
higher-order principal-based concerns.

------
jasonshen
My biggest takeaway is that people can have vastly different experiences in
"the same product". Just as liberal and conservative Facebook users saw very
different streams of content and news, men and women.

I don't check Instagram very often anymore but I just logged in now and here
are the ads I see:

* Pluralsight - 10 technologies shaking up business Monday.com - visual project management tool

* 241 Atlantic - Brooklyn's newest residential rental development

* Playstation - Monster Hunter World game

* Whichdoor - some kind of rental search engine

* Marvel Strike Force - action RPG game prob on mobile

These ads reflect my interests in tech, business, gaming, and NYC rentals (my
lease is up later this year) and are interesting + don't make me feel bad
about myself.

But if all the ads I saw were for clothing to "slim your dad bod" or featured
really attractive men in skimpy outfits, with the implication that that's how
I was supposed to look - I wouldn't like that. I would feel like the world was
telling me that my personality, my intelligence, and my creativity didn't
matter and that I am only valued for how I look.

That sucks and I think it's understandable that someone wouldn't want to see
that. These advertising messages go deep into our psyches.

~~~
jschwartzi
If you buy any clothing online you'll start getting similar ads as you
describe. I regularly get ads for men's underwear, tight-fitting workout
clothes, and ads featuring ruggedly handsome 5'11" men with lush,
immaculately-groomed beards in well-tailored clothes.

------
nostrademons
My favorite advertising sequence was on Hulu a couple years ago. First I'm
shown an ad for Rogaine. I click "not interested". Then I'm shown an ad for
Viagra. I click "not interested". Then I'm shown an ad for Victoria's Secret.
I'm male.

It's like some algorithm is going "Balding? Nope, then you must be impotent.
Wait, you're not impotent either? You must be a woman."

(Putting on my data-scientist hat, this is actually pretty rational. My actual
status is "I'm just not interested in buying things from you", but this is a
useless result to an advertiser; as someone not interested in buying things or
paying for content, I'm irrelevant, so they can afford to piss me off in the
hopes that they'll find someone who _is_ balding/impotent/female and insecure
about it, and I'm just a cost of doing business.)

~~~
nickparker
The roughly equally bad take on that sequence is that after confirming you're
neither balding nor impotent, it assumed there was someone in your life to
purchase Victoria's Secret _for_.

~~~
user5994461
I am amazed at how incredibly accurate it is.

And they're not just showing a stupid ad. They are giving a major brand name
that most males may know.

------
DoreenMichele
Oh. My. Goodness.

Nevermind negative body image. I would feel sexually harassed or something for
having that many boobs and butts shoved in my face over and over and over.
That veers weirdly into soft porn territory. If I want to look at naked bodies
all the live long day, fine. But she says _I mostly just came here to see
pictures of my friends’ dogs and kids._ If I were visiting a site to talk to
friends about their kids and almost exclusively saw these kinds of ads, I
would feel like this would be a bit like leaving a stack of Playboy magazines
on the desk of a teacher at an elementary school.

~~~
tdb7893
I think it's a matter of differing opinions, I didn't find those ads
particularly suggestive. I see people in similar outfits at the gym all the
time and for the bra ads there's no good way to sell it without the model
being shirtless (and I see people in less at the beach all the time, too).

~~~
DoreenMichele
But when you go to the beach or gym, you know it will be there. When you go
to, say, an elementary school or other child oriented environment, you
generally don't expect to see it.

There is a difference.

------
cgb223
I think she kind of answered here own question here.

She’s said that she’s purchased yoga equipment and bras in the past, so it
makes a lot of sense that she’s seeing these ads

Facebook’s algorithms take a look at all people who buy certain things, and
look at similar things they also buy, as well as a host of demographic
information to key in on it more

They don’t do a perfect job. Facebook is not nearly as omniscient as people
think it is. Trust me, I have some relevant work experience

As for the ads themselves, they’re selling an ideal, not a product. If they ad
just had a picture of a bra on a table with nobody wearing it, that ad would
be less effective than if someone conventionally attractive was wearing it.
That’s not going to change, because it sells more of the product.

As for the body types, I think my sister (an accomplished Nuclear Engineer)
put it best. Women often complain that they’re being pushed by advertising to
conform to a certain body type. That’s valid. But those same women often then
come to the conclusion to shame women who worked hard to have their body look
like that.

My sister feels its an attack (attack might be a strong word here) on someone
like her, who puts in serious effort to her health and body, in addition to
the hard work she does as an engineer and a mother. Why is she the bad guy for
putting in effort. Why cant some women have bodies like that, and some not?

~~~
skywhopper
Wow, way to dismiss her very valid points. In fact, no, if Instagram and
Facebook think this is relevant advertising then they’ve scammed their
investors far worse than we thought. And if the ads make the user feel
unhappy, then they are really bad and they should do something about them.
Finally, please get past the false notion that people with advertising-ideal
bodies like your sister are somehow putting in more effort than other people.
That’s demonstrably false. And in any case your final question is sort of the
point of the post you are trying to dismiss. Why do all the women in those ads
have one type of body, when there are so many other types out there?

~~~
alsetmusic
> Finally, please get past the false notion that people with advertising-ideal
> bodies like your sister are somehow putting in more effort than other
> people. That’s demonstrably false.

I put in no effort and thus have a beer gut. Before my metabolism slowed, I
was super skinny with no muscle definition. Neither are considered an ideal
male physique, but I don’t knock people who work out and have great bodies to
show for it. It’s just not terribly important to me.

Your comment sounds very much like the insecurity that the parent was pointing
out. I’m with the parent on this. There’s nothing wrong with people who spend
time and effort to look physically fit, if that makes them happy. Note that
I’m not in support of exploiting people who don’t like the way they look.

------
clouddrover
> _there isn’t really a way to opt out of it._

Yes there is: don't use Facebook or Instagram.

I see little value in being surprised that a surveillance based advertising
platform does indeed surveil and advertise at you. That's what these things
are built to do.

Regardless of whether the ads are repetitive or not, why pollute your life
with advertising in the first place? Reduce your exposure to advertising
pollution and you really will feel better. That's what I do.

~~~
sodosopa
Don't forget, opt out of everything else too. Your buying choices are tracked
in so many different ways, should we just give up and sign off, run off to the
country and not buy anything on or offline? Of course not, but saying "well
duh, logout" isn't identifying the true problem.

The content of the ads in the example are questionable in context. It's not
that she or we're being tracked, it's the psychological triggers used to shame
or bait people.

~~~
clouddrover
> _Don 't forget, opt out of everything else too._

I don't forget. I pay cash whenever possible, I don't join so-called "loyalty"
programs, I don't give out my number or email address to businesses freely,
etc. The world is a hostile place and you must always guard against the
exploitation of your data. I wish this was a paranoid perspective but it has
sadly become a pragmatic one. It's unfortunate that this is the world we've
built for ourselves.

> _it 's the psychological triggers used to shame or bait people_

Made more possible and better targeted through tracking. These days it's
simply good computer hygiene to install a blocker in your browser (such as
uBlock Origin) and to also turn on your browser's built-in tracking protection
if it has it (like Firefox does: [https://support.mozilla.org/en-
US/kb/tracking-protection](https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/tracking-
protection)).

~~~
newscracker
I feel happy when I read comments like this and see that there are many people
who think this way. I've started the move to using more cash myself, and one
of the triggers was this Aeon article titled "In praise of cash" that
impressed me and influenced me. [1] As a strong pro-privacy advocate in my
circles, I also feel the despair that comes when I see that most people don't
understand or don't care much, which (I believe) is a detriment to humanity as
a whole.

[1]: [https://aeon.co/essays/if-plastic-replaces-cash-much-that-
is...](https://aeon.co/essays/if-plastic-replaces-cash-much-that-is-good-will-
be-lost)

------
ThrustVectoring
If you're not paying, you're the product.

How this caches out is that you will never be served the ads that are best for
you. Instead, you'll be shown whatever the most expensive targeting options
are for you, given the information the advertising platform knows about you.
In this case, since you buy bras, it's ads for bras. Visit a coding bootcamp
website and get tracked and you'll get ads for coding bootcamps - even if
you're currently attending the bootcamp you're getting advertised for.

Practical advice: start doing a _lot_ of online web shopping and trackable
stuff for mattresses. You'll probably get ads for mattresses instead.
"Interested in buying a mattress" is a very high-value category for marketers
to target.

~~~
cardiffspaceman
I can validate _and_ _top_ the mattress thing. I get ads for expensive cruise
ship voyages most of the time ($25K for two portholes looking out at
Antarctica for two weeks, per person; one can dream). Practically speaking, do
a decent research session on something that presses pleasant buttons. Of
course, if a California King pillow-top mattress is your thing, then go
(search) for it (they are nice).

------
oliwarner
Why haven't advertisers noticed this is why we install blockers?

Deep-tracking, ultra-personalisation ending in creepy ads were bad enough. But
the flip-side is if there's only one industry interested in your activities,
you only see those ads, whatever you're looking at.

Lets go back to the 2000s, where _ads targeted content_ , not users.

Before you start fretting about CTRs, you can't click what you don't see.
That's the hole advertisers need to dig themselves out of. And even before ad-
blockers ruled supreme, targeted advertising was sold to publishers as a way
of increasing CPM. Truth is payouts have been in free-fall since online
advertising began.

~~~
jdboyd
> Why haven't advertisers noticed this is why we install blockers?

Maybe because not enough people install blockers for it to matter.

------
snomad
The suicide rate for teens, especially teen girls, has risen along with the
explosion in social media [https://www.cnn.com/2017/08/03/health/teen-suicide-
cdc-study...](https://www.cnn.com/2017/08/03/health/teen-suicide-cdc-study-
bn/index.html).

Instinctively, above cyber bullying and public body shaming, it is these kind
of ad / algo quirks that would seem like a key contributing factor. As the
author points out, the constant barrage can't help but make you consider your
own body.

~~~
thirdsun
> the constant barrage can‘t help but make you consider your own body.

Apart from the method of using ads and tracking, which I despise, I wonder if
this is actually such a bad thing - at least in this particular case: If you
aren‘t satisfied with your body there are ways to change that - eating
healthy, being active. Of course, that‘s a whole different discussion. I‘m
simply wondering if someone should be offended if confronted with healthy and
fit people.

Or put differently: Would you complain about ads that show people succesful in
their career? A status that is probably harder to achieve and than being fit.

~~~
urahara
Sure, something leading to cyberbullying and girls committing suicides is
obviously a very, very bad thing along with objectification. Many people are
not even in control over their health and body for physical, psychological or
social reasons. "Successful in their career" doesn't work the same way, it is
a bad analogy. For one, this doesn't influence kids/teens, career success is
all about grownups and doesn't degrade people to mere objects.

~~~
thirdsun
Some thoughts:

\- How many people are really not in control of their health and body? Sure,
there are physical exceptions and I‘m not saying it‘s easy, but is it really
common that eating healthy and living an active lifestyle is prevented by
psychological and social reasons? And if so, isn‘t that an excuse for missing
pretty much any goal that requires to overcome some barriers?

\- With cyberbullying, suicide and objectification you‘re throwing terms into
the discussion that are a major escalation of the ads in question. I don‘t
necessarily make that connection or at least think that it‘s a very subjective
one and in my opinion those issues rather require work on a personal,
individual level for those affected. However, that’s a different discussion.

\- Wouldn‘t you agree that one‘s career and professional status is very much
related to the perceived self-worth? How is that not relevant to teenagers
that are about to start their careers, whether it‘s a high paying tech job or
being a cashier at Walmart, very soon. Considering one‘s career options
doesn‘t require to already have one - it also applies to future prospects - or
lack thereof. And even then grownups aren‘t immune to these considerations and
their effects.

------
mayneack
I don't know if it would work for instagram, but I habitually block brand
accounts on twitter if they promote tweets to me. I can't quantify it, but I
feel like I don't see as many ads on twitter as I used to.

[https://blocktogether.org/show-
blocks/njFjyOn40oKxRW8XJLmN70...](https://blocktogether.org/show-
blocks/njFjyOn40oKxRW8XJLmN70CVaQcXZbgn5I9iN0OV)

------
conroy
One of my goals in 2018 is to see fewer ads. For Twitter, that means using a
dedicated app (Tweetbot) that doesn't display any ads. I looked into similar
applications for Instagram, but it appears they shut down their feed APIs two
years ago.

However, I just discovered that the Instagram website doesn't show sponsored
posts. I'm not sure if has something to do with my setup, but I just scrolled
through the last hundred photos and didn't see a single ad. It looks great and
functions just like the mobile app. The icon is even the same! Just go to
instagram.com on your phone and sign in.

~~~
sunsetMurk
this is a good tip for any of Facebook's products... Mobile site > native app.

The mobile sites usually support the features you're actually trying to use,
are faster, have fewer privacy implications, and don't kill your phone's
battery.

~~~
scarface74
Another advantage of the mobile Facebook site for iOS is that you can use an
ad blocker plug in Safari.

------
hello_asdf
Are there common domains to Instagram sponsored posts? I'm wondering if
blocking DNS on routers / devices would give some temporary relief for this
situation.

I'm sorry that you're being bombarded with this, it'd be nice if Facebook
provided topic blocking for ads beyond alcohol and parenting.

~~~
na85
I believe this highlights a problem with the web in general: ads are a blight
and should be excised from it entirely.

If some ad-supported sites have to go under, well, that's just the cost of
social progress.

~~~
dominotw
What about highway Billboards, how can we bring progress there?

~~~
tomc1985
Far less intrusive.

There's that one city in Brazil that did away with them...

~~~
659087
> Far less intrusive.

Then you must not have yet had the pleasure of being exposed to the massive,
blindingly-bright displays playing animated ads near many major cities.

~~~
tatersolid
I almost had an accident when the ancient “Budweiser” sign on I94 near
Armitage in Chicago was replaced with an 80-foot electronic billboard.

It was a darkish night, and while I was looking the board board switched to an
ad with a mostly-white background. It was like looking into 1000 suns. I was
temporarily blinded with those purple spots in my vision and actually rolled
onto the shoulder near the wall before recovering.

------
nezzle
As much as I'd like to turn this into social commentary about the patriarchy,
this is the result of women like her buying these items. The return on
investment for bra ads to her cohort is superior to other ads, so that's what
they see.

It's the same problem with click bait, tv, news, nigerian scams, penis
enhancement drugs, etc. Unfortunately this comes down to a 'blame the people'
\- or at least our psychological weaknesses.

~~~
beaconstudios
it's the thing modern consumerism is best at - optimising for what we want,
despite what we tell ourselves about what we want. Oftentimes that results in
tapping into reward system hacks like chained clickbait articles or "get X
quick" products.

------
oculusthrift
devils advocate, but what’s so wrong about this? why is it a corporations
fault if you feel insecure about yourself? if you’re unhappy you’re the only
one who can chance that, why complain to a corporation to fix your
insecurities by avoiding them?

~~~
jji990
It's not as if the advertisers are blind to the your insecurities. They are
targeting your insecurity with ads.

I should know. Worked for a small agency. First did print ads. Then
specialized in PPC. Find the thing that keeps your target market up at night.
That's what gets them to click. When I ran campaigns for "wellness" companies
(which were scammy to begin with), the "stay healthy" angle never worked. The
ads that performed the best were the ones that made the user feel anxious:
Feeling tired? Weak? Gaining weight? Looking older? That sort of thing.

Think about that for a second. Is that nice? To intentionally make someone
feel bad about themselves, to sell them something? Of course not.

Is it legal? Yeah. Should it be? Probably. But just because you can, doesn't
mean you should. Unfortunately, that's not the win-at-all-cost mentality of
business.

~~~
dannyw
Allowing opting out of “interest based” (aka surveillance based) advertising
would be good regulation.

------
williamscales
If I could pay to use Instagram without ads, I would do it in a heartbeat. I
used to pay for Flickr pro but now all the cool kids are on Instagram so I
post there. I cannot identify a single time in my life when I have been happy
to see an ad. Why is there no option to pay for Instagram?

~~~
dannyw
Facebook’s ARPU is about $20 per year from financial releases last year.

However, people who would pay to block ads probably are in a demographic that
makes significantly more ARPU for Facebook; possibly 3-4 times.

I know Google’s ARPU off me (prior to installing an ad blocker) is in the
$100s per year (calculated by an extension that looks at your search terms,
what ads you click on, and how much they cost). I don’t think I’ll pay a few
hundreds a year for Google.

------
u801e
I suspect that ads like this will show regardless whether she's using
Instagram or some other website.

For example, while at work, I searched for some documentation on syslog-ng.
After that, page ads on multiple websites would refer to syslog.

------
UweSchmidt
Strange, I find the ads instagram decides to show to me extremely on point and
highly interesting. And I can easily see how they did it, since I keep
clicking and liking pictures that are very well tagged.

What is your experience?

------
LeoNatan25
Report every “sponsored” shit content as spam, sexually inappropriate,
inciting violence, etc. Just do it. If enough people do it, these assholes are
going to feel it. Do it on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook.

~~~
saagarjha
It might also get you flagged…

~~~
LeoNatan25
It’s a question of volume. If enough people do it, they can’t flag all
accounts because then no real reporting will be possible.

------
tptacek
Seriously what is the deal with the avocados and limes? Were those toasts
procedurally generated?

~~~
corysama
They make for an aesthetically pleasing picture as long as you don’t think
about actually eating avocado skins.

~~~
PhasmaFelis
Or big chunks of lime.

------
mnm1
Lauren needs to get an ad blocker asap. Or not use Instagram. Seriously, what
else can one expect from ads? A good experience? That's fucking delusional.

~~~
jmcgough
Can't ad-block an instagram app, and she uses Instagram to stay in touch with
friends/family. Not that easy of a problem to solve.

~~~
mnm1
She can use the website version to read her feed or use a DNS resolver that
blocks ad domains. If her primary purpose is to stay in touch with friends and
family, there are also plenty of other apps for that.

------
danjoc
The author is misdirected. This isn't really an Instagram problem. Instagram
didn't make the ads. The advertisers did. If the ad is successful, it
continues. If it is unsuccessful, it is removed. Clearly, these are the
successful ads. The fact that author is triggered by them seems to indicate
the problem is with the author, not the ads.

The vast majority of users have no problems with the ads, or the ads would
change. The vast majority don't write 5 pages of medium.com screed about the
ads. The vast majority are imagining themselves as the woman in the ad and
buying the products. That is simply how the algorithm works.

The nice thing about the internet is everyone can have their say. The less
nice thing about the internet is that includes everyone, including people with
serious mental issues. Articles like this one, or infowars, or any other sort
of militant fringe generally attracts more of the same sort of voices. It
makes the fringe seem legitimate, because there's a balance of for and against
in the discussion.

The vast majority disagrees with the author. That's how the algorithm works.

~~~
olefoo
Wasn't the internet supposed to liberate us from one size fits all cultural
norms?

The author isn't asking for a ban on bra ads; she just wants to be able to
control her feed and see ads that are more relevant to her life. She is trying
to have a conversation about the stereotypes that the advertisers are using
but neither the advertisers nor the channel appear to be interested.

I'm reminded of the Cluetrain Manifesto [1] and it's successes and failures in
the current context.

1\. [http://www.cluetrain.com/](http://www.cluetrain.com/)

------
nbanks
For apps where an ad blocker doesn't work, I tend to click on ads that I want
to see in the future. This means someone is paying for my clicks even when I
go back immediately instead of reading the content, but at least this leads to
less annoying ads in the future.

------
booleandilemma
Well that’s advertising for you.

------
smsm42
I once did research on some garbage removal services on Google. Months after
that, on any device that didn't have adblock and was logged into same Google
account, I've got garbage ads (literally in this case). That's how their
targeting works, as it seems - which is also quite stupid since I didn't need
the service once I used it, certainly not for a long time afterwards, and if
I'll need it again, I'd have long forgotten the ads they have shown me back
then.

------
Waterluvian
I hate how laser focused ads can be. I don't know what I talked about but
almost all of my mobile Gmail ads are about meeting mature singles. Which
makes no sense because I'm an immature spouse.

------
imsofuture
Similar issues with alcohol if you've gotten slated into the algorithmic
'finer things club'. Non stop booze ads. Not all of us appreciate, or are okay
with/at drinking.

------
KaoruAoiShiho
The problem is not with instagram but with capitalism. Capitalism is a system
designed to optimize for profit, so the only advertisers that want to target
you are advertisers who can profit from those ads. Vices make profit,
insecurity makes profit, promoting positive mental health does not make
profit.

In time we'll look back on this wild west of social media consumption just
like how we look back on smoking. This stuff needs to be regulated.

~~~
randyrand
Socialism would not solve this "problem". It's still profit seeking.

Communism is also a profit seeking system -- just one where the everyday
person no longer has the ability to make profit and only the leaders are the
ones seeking profit. It may solve this bra problem, but will lead to other
ones.

------
rdlecler1
There’s no such thing as a free lunch. If Insta offered an ad free option for
$10/month I wonder if the author would pay for it.

------
vezirynn
Evidently it's working on SOME front or they'd be putting more profitable ads
in.

Still brings up the question of whether the extra revenue is worth annoying
part of your user base - but from my experience I'll only ever see 1-2 ads
even if I scroll for 5-10 minutes.

~~~
nukeop
That's how targeted ads work - if you bought a product in the past, you must
be interested in buying the same type of products, every week, forever, and
you'll be interested in seeing ads for these products.

~~~
MBCook
And it works extremely well. That’s why, thanks to Amazon ads, I’ve bought 14
vacuums in the last two months.

Sigh.

I really wish the algorithms were smart enough to distinguish between things
that you might rebuy frequently (bras are closer to this end) and things that
you probably won’t buy again for a long time (like vacuums).

------
anonu
Here's the solution: get off of Instagram. Ask yourself: does it provide any
real value in your life? If the answer is no, just delete the app and get on
with your life.

------
kevin_thibedeau
The secret is to not let them create an accurate profile in the first place.

~~~
jbrennan
I think this line of reasoning is victim blaming. It’s not the author’s fault
that Instagram works the way it works. I think she’s entitled to want them to
do a better job.

~~~
leetcrew
I don't disagree that this type of advertising is unsavory, but I do think it
is a bit simplistic to call people like the author victims of evil oppressive
Instagram and call it a day.

I notice that in today's society people make an awful lot of demands on the
services and apps they use, while not directly paying for hardly any of what
they consume.

Facebook/Instagram definitely has a lot more power than any individual user,
but it doesn't have more power than _all_ of its users. If people were
offended enough to actually walk away from the platform en masse, I bet we
would see substantial reform pretty quickly.

The "if you don't like it, leave" argument is cruel when applied to cities,
countries, or essential services, but I think it is pretty fair when we are
talking about totally superfluous apps that don't even cost anything.

------
mirimir
So really, there's no way to block ads?

~~~
williamscales
I don't know of any straightforward (i.e. that does not require root access)
way to block the ads in the Instagram app. I would guess that this is why they
push the app so hard (as with Twitter).

~~~
mirimir
Apps are one of the main reasons why I refuse to use smartphones. They're
broken-by-design, from user perspective.

So how come there aren't uber-apps (ha ha) that can spoof apps, looking to
servers like real apps, but protecting users?

~~~
williamscales
_So how come there aren 't uber-apps (ha ha) that can spoof apps, looking to
servers like real apps, but protecting users?_

Well there are such things, but due to the security model they typically
require root access. This is not great because rooting your phone makes it
much more insecure.

The other option would be to implement an alternative Instagram app that does
not show ads. I assume that Instagram has various measures in place that
preclude this.

~~~
mirimir
I was imagining more like "alternative Instagram app". Maybe more like a
browser with macro capabilities. But obviously, Instagram would try to block
it.

Why not just use a browser with an ad blocker?

~~~
williamscales
_Why not just use a browser with an ad blocker?_

That's a viable option indeed. I don't do that because the Instagram mobile
website is significantly less nice than the app-each tab of the app is a
separate web page that loads fairly slowly for instance. So in the end, I use
the app, report the ads I see as not relevant, and suck it up. I usually only
see one ad per day so it's not the end of the world.

------
yummy
Bra-free? I hoped we would finally be able to see titties... Very disappointed

~~~
dang
We've banned this account for repeatedly posting uncivil and/or unsubstantive
comments to Hacker News. That's the opposite of what this site is for.

If you don't want to be banned on HN, you're welcome to email
hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules
in the future.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

------
epx
Try to use average women (and men) to see how many bras you are going to sell
:)

------
moltar
Well, it’s easy. Don’t use Instagram.

~~~
mikeash
Why are hackers so all-or-nothing when it comes to customer feedback? Either
you like everything about a product or you don’t use it. There’s no room for
complaints or other feedback about something a person likes overall but
doesn’t find to be perfect?

~~~
mnm1
Maybe because boycotting is the only real power consumers have in our economy?
Sure, there's room for complaints for people that don't mind wasting their
time on futile acts that change nothing.

~~~
mikeash
Power can be exercised without actually performing the act that gives you
power. For example, if I have a gun pointed at you and I request your wallet,
that request has power even if I don't actually shoot you.

------
nukeop
I don't have that problem. A model's job is to look good in photographs, my
job is to create computer programs. I'm good at my job, somebody else is good
at their job. I don't see this as a personal failure or even irritation that
I'm not good at all possible jobs in the world.

~~~
QAPereo
You sound not entirely unlike someone who gets to sleep at night by telling
themselves they only designed them guidance system for a missile, or the fuse
for a mine. Hopefully it’s that... the alternative is the absence of a
conscience.

~~~
nukeop
I don't think seeing ads that make you feel bad is equal to stepping on a
landmine. And I don't work in advertising industry, I hate it with a passion.

~~~
QAPereo
It’s definitely not equivalent, but the coping mechanism and means of
dissipating personal responsibility are identical.

~~~
nukeop
I think you're making too many wild assumptions here, I don't need to "cope"
with anything here and I'm definitely not responsible for the content of ads a
large company whose services I don't use serves.

------
4minute
I can't believe people get offended over ads on a free product. Don't use the
product if the ads upset you so much or just block them.

Why care this much? They are ads, we all know why they are there and what they
are suppose to do. So why are we acting like they are some mind manipulating
images. I could understand the confusion if the writer was an 8 year old girl.

The reason these ads use skinny people, is the same reason why people dress up
nicely for a job interview.

~~~
ComputerGuru
It’s not about being offended. If that’s what you got out of it, you are
missing the point. The author even wrote that there’s an option to report an
ad as offensive _but she chose not to use it because she wasn’t offended._

Clearly the author is comfortable with her body and sexuality enough to not
find these images and ads _offensive_ per se, but that doesn’t mean there’s
nothing wrong with them and the industry that pushes them.

I’ll go do far as to say people thinking the way you do is the reason these
exist. I can just see a timid voice at a meeting about ad content venturing
“what if people find these intrusive, creepy, or esteem damaging?” And a
brusque and carefree reply from the loud alpha male in the room “psssh it’s
2017! I can’t believe people get offended over an _ad_! But ok, well just add
an “hide because it’s offensive” link and we’re good.”

~~~
4minute
Well advertisers push these ads cause they work. It's not like they would keep
pushing the same ads if they didn't sell anything.

------
nukeop
So some woman is sad ("triggered") because she doesn't look like a model from
an ad on Instagram. How is this relevant to Hacker news?

Maybe the message is that uBlock origin should be installed by default on
every browser?

~~~
dang
I don't think it's "some woman" who was triggered here. The article is
intellectually interesting and therefore clearly on topic for Hacker News. It
takes a path through some provocative material, of course, but hardly
gratuitously.

Meanwhile, your comment violates the site guidelines, first by crossing into
personal attack, and second by failing to do this: "Please respond to the
strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one
that's easier to criticize." And I'm sorry to see that you've been violating
the site rules quite a bit, already. We eventually ban accounts that do this,
so please read the rules and take the spirit of this site to heart. That means
civil, substantive comments only, and no more rants or flamebait.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
nukeop
So what is the strongest plausible interpretation here? Because the article is
full of body image issues and being jealous that somebody else in the ads
looks better.

~~~
nperez
It's food for thought if you work in ad tech. Targeting based on
tags/interests can be effective, but understanding the visual content of an ad
and how it will be received by the user is a different problem that could
result in better targeting if solved.

Suppose all ads were tagged for their visual content and their ad-hiding
functionality looked for categories of content that you frequently hide. That
data could be used for better targeting and passed all the way back to
creative agencies to influence design decisions.

How is that not relevant to HN?

~~~
tinymollusk
It is my belief that adtech companies' top priority is to make money. They do
this by increasing clickthrough rate and cost per click. As long as they don't
fall below some "trust" threshold (subjective emotional judgement from ill-
informed customers pulling threads from obfuscated-at-best PR releases), they
are golden.

From that perspective, why would they want to "better" target using proxy
metrics for the ones you really care about? Focusing on the CTR[0], why use
tags or interests when you can use clickthrough rate itself?

There are so many factors in what causes someone to click; it's a more
effective strategy to treat all those factors as a black box, and optimize for
the direct behavior you want to encourage.

Added bonus, those black box / supercomplex problems can be efficiently
optimized by ML.

[0] CPC is driven by the advertiser side

