
How Nespresso's coffee revolution got ground down - ohjeez
https://www.theguardian.com/food/2020/jul/14/nespresso-coffee-capsule-pods-branding-clooney-nestle-recycling-environment
======
zwaps
I think I am one of the few people who enjoys all sorts of coffee.

I have had Espresso in many citys in Italy, all the hip Third Wave coffees,
but I can still enjoy a Nespresso, a drip machine, Mokka, Turkish coffee,
DeLonghi or Jura type coffee or Aeropress. I even find Starbucks has its own
taste.

They all taste different. I just don‘t get the people who insist coffee can
not be bitter and Starbucks roast is the devil.

The sneering I get from people who think there is exactly two ways one should
enjoy coffee, as super tricked out Espresso, or as mild tea. Seriously.

Yes I have had „good“ coffee. Lots of it. I even had a lot of bad „good“
coffee.

I sometimes have serious nostalgia for good bad coffee and no one will take it
away from me!

~~~
esperent
There's nothing wrong with the taste of Nespresso (it's a little weak for me,
but that's personal preference). The reason why coffee pods are awful and need
to die is the sheer, disgusting amount of pointless waste they create. Every
single cup of coffee requires a small, non-degradable, hard to recycle piece
of plastic. Making coffee with a normal espresso machine is so easy. You can
learn how to do it in 5 minutes (not barista quality, but at least as good as
Nespresso). If you think that cleaning up the mess from a coffee machine is
too much work, you are just lazy.

The only benefit I can think of is that you don't need a sink nearby. But in
every case where I have seen a Nespresso machine, there is a sink within at
most a two minutes walk.

~~~
bradleyjg
> The reason why coffee pods are awful and need to die is the sheer,
> disgusting amount of pointless waste they create.

It’s funny how people are so high and mighty about the small stuff and then
let the absolutely enormous stuff pass completely. Are you this judgmental
about living in a stand alone house vs an apartment in an apartment building?
Taking plane trips for vacation?

Or do those bog standard—celebrated even—parts of upper middle class life get
a free pass while you sneer down your nose at people that don’t pull their own
espresso shots to save a few hundred ounces of plastic a year “for the
environment”?

~~~
me_me_me
Because one is easy to eliminate, and other things are not (or occurs rarely).

Making 2 coffees twice a day is something that adds up. Same as with bottled
water, you can just buy filter flask/bottle/ etc. and use tap water. Or
recycling vs not bothering.

This whole argument of: 'Well you drive, or fly, or use coal power etc, so
dont bother with little things' it is just cuddling of mind. Conditioning not
to care as you can do nothing to change the outcome of anything. So CONSUME!

Yes those are small things but its the mindset that will make you more
conscious and less egocentric in a long run.

~~~
thebean11
Getting an apartment instead of a house IS easy in most places, it's just a
bigger sacrifice which I think is the point. Privileged people unwilling to
make sacrifices sneer at others who might actually might be doing a better job
overall.

~~~
me_me_me
> Privileged people unwilling to make sacrifices sneer at others who might
> actually might be doing a better job overall.

Yes, I agree though its a bit of a straw-man.

The world would be a better place if we look inwards for things to improve,
instead of outwards for confirmations how everyone else sucks.

Also:

>Getting an apartment instead of a house IS easy in most places If you have 2
kids and you work from home, then a 2 bedroom apt will hardly be 'easy', both
logistically and mentally.

~~~
thebean11
> then a 2 bedroom apt will hardly be 'easy'

The point of the apartment isn't to downsize in terms of number of bedrooms,
it's more that heating and cooling something freestanding takes a lot more
energy.

~~~
me_me_me
I don't think you got the point. The point is not to build a straw-man as an
argument as I can do it too and it gets us nowhere.

>it's more that heating and cooling something freestanding takes a lot more

What about temperate climate without huge swings in temperature, plus its new
house with A+ insulation and solar. So you are more green as you save on
electricity.

~~~
thebean11
I don't mean to say anything about your specific situation. OP was pointing
out that people tend to hyperfocus on insignificant optimizations, and
mentioned living situation as a big optimization that almost nobody thinks
about.

------
peteretep
> In 2013, the most recent year it released figures, Nespresso’s revenues
> totalled $10.8bn.

> In the summer of 2020, buffeted by Covid-19, Nespresso trundles on. In a
> recent email, a spokesperson reported “mid single-digit growth”

This article has failed to do anything other than convince me that the
Nespresso is one of the most impressive products every launched, and has room
to take on the US still.

~~~
gambiting
Really, I hate how "single digit growth" is somehow a failure nowadays.
Millions of companies everywhere don't even grow year or year - businesses
which found their niche, which employ hundreds or thousands of people and
which just operate in equilibrium state where everyone goes home paid at the
end of the day and it's fine. No one considers those a failure just because
their valuation isn't doubling year on year.

~~~
onion2k
If a company isn't growing by at least the equivalent of inflation then it's
shrinking, and that can't happen for very long before it can't cover its
costs.

Even when inflation is close to zero, interest on debt means that a company
that isn't growing won't be able to service it's creditors forever, and it'll
fail.

There are plenty of reasons why 'growth at all costs' is a stupid goal, but
there does have to be _some_ growth for a business to survive.

~~~
lordgrenville
That doesn't sound right. If I'm consistently profitable and not growing.
Prices rise, my inputs cost more, but I can raise my own prices, so my
business remains in equilibrium.

~~~
shawabawa3
That would show as revenue growth

------
toyg
You can take the Nespresso machine out of my dead cold hands. It improved my
life significantly: no more ground coffee spilling all over, no more cleaning
and drying the mocha every day, no more having to worry about the right amount
of coffee or water, whether I’m drinking too much, why I didn’t get crema...
It’s slightly more expensive than simple mocha but still dramatically cheaper
than anything you find in coffee shops (outside Italy at least), and worth the
peace of mind. Now they have a saas-like offering so I don’t even have to
worry about how much I spend, it’s automatically budgeted and withdrawn and I
just make an order every few months.

The only criticism I have is that most of their varieties are not 100%
Arabica, and often it’s hard to find out if their “special editions” are.
Robusta is bad for your blood pressure, but sadly it’s cheaper so it ends up
in most mixes. This said, I think their last batch was almost entirely Arabica
flavours so maybe they are improving. If you care, I’ve done a bit of analysis
two years ago that covers all classic varieties (I really should update it) at
[http://blog.pythonaro.com/2018/04/nespresso-blends-
comprehen...](http://blog.pythonaro.com/2018/04/nespresso-blends-
comprehensive.html)

(Oh, and fuck Vertuo. I’m happy to read it was an attempt at courting
Americans, because from here it looked like just a simple money grab to raise
the cost of capsules and maintain exclusivity on the format. No thanks.)

~~~
SergeAx
Pure arabica could give your coffee sour taste, especially if roasted lightly.
10-15% robusta balances that.

+1 to fuck Vertuo. If someone wants their coffee by gallons - let them get a
dripper or kettle plus family-size bag of instant powder.

------
myrandomcomment
We have one of the ~$400ish red machines at home for 6 years now. It gets used
maybe once a week. Every morning we grind beans, and use a French press. We
have our normal coffee bean but we love to try different beans. The ritual of
making the coffee in the morning is part of the joy I think. Putting the
kettle on, the smell of the beans being ground, the smell from pouring the
water on the grounds and stirring them. It’s a comfortable part of the
morning. It’s a constant in a world that needs it now.

~~~
MaximumYComb
Are you child free? I wake up and just hope for 5 minutes of peace to enjoy a
coffee where I can sit, read and drink coffee. Making coffee using a French
press would take all that time. Nespresso is a quick thing and I get to enjoy
a few minutes of peace before chaos.

~~~
myrandomcomment
No, but teenage now. The French press does not really take much time. Night
before going to bed setup kettle and grinder. Get up and go to the kitchen,
hit the button on the kettle, hit grind. Dump coffee in press. Water is done
in 4 minutes. Pour on coffee, stir. Go grab a shower or the like, come back
and press down and pour.

------
hhs
> When you ordered capsules, you joined the “Club”, which also meant handing
> over your contact information. Over time, Nespresso gained a huge database
> of customers it could market to, as well as a way of recording consumer
> preferences and buying habits. For customers, the club created the sense
> that you were part of a sophisticated worldwide cabal of corporate espresso
> lovers. When I first encountered Nespresso, as a student, around 2006, I
> remember feeling like I was finally part of the global elite everyone kept
> complaining about. “What Nespresso have done is create a lot of benign
> bullshit around coffee,” said Rory Sutherland. “But people enjoy the
> bullshit.”

There’s a lot in there from the author. It’s marketing and building an
ecosystem. Surprised this doesn’t happen with other drinks like carbonated
water.

~~~
executive
[https://sodastream.com/](https://sodastream.com/)

~~~
fermienrico
Is it only me or I find marketing around "eco-friendly" not genuine and just a
ploy to get you to buy their products?

Like you go to Marriott hotels, low and behold there is a sign on the bathroom
towel that says "Please help save the planet" by reusing the towel. Sure it
helps, but that's not the reason why they put that sign up. It is to save
costs of laundry. If they really want to save the planet, how about cutting
down private jets for their executives?

It never feels genuine and unless the product/service is directly contributing
help to the environment - like an advertisement for a Solar panel company or a
Wind Turbine brochure.

~~~
bmarquez
You're not the first person to think of this, it even has it's own term. The
hotel example isn't as extreme though.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwashing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwashing)

"Greenwashing efforts can range from changing the name or label of a product
to evoke the natural environment on a product containing harmful chemicals to
multimillion-dollar marketing campaigns portraying highly polluting energy
companies as eco-friendly. Greenwashing is therefore a "mask" used to cover-up
unsustainable corporate agendas and policies."

~~~
fermienrico
I can rest with peace now. Thank you.

------
softwaredoug
I’ve seen a couple comments that nespreso is wasteful. It’s worth pointing out
the relatively easy to use capsule recycling and composting program. You fedex
bags of used capsules and they recycle and compost then (supposedly)

[https://www.nespresso.com/us/en/how-to-recycle-coffee-
capsul...](https://www.nespresso.com/us/en/how-to-recycle-coffee-capsules)

~~~
aivisol
I would vote for not creating plastic waste in the first time. This is not
life saving essential product you cannot live without which you need to
produce in mega quantities. What percentage of the capsules is recycled and
what percentage ends up in the landfills? Is recycling not energy intensive
operation? (Someone even mentioned fedexing used capsules?) I mean single use
plastic shopping bags, plates and cutlery are convenient too... why do we try
to reduce them ?

~~~
anon102010
Why do we falsely claim their pods are plastic? Their competitors use plastic
and receive no criticism. They do aluminum and a bag drop program and are
trashed

~~~
aivisol
I admit I did not do research before posting, my bad. Was not aware they are
made from aluminum. But it is still nonsense to create packaging for every 5
grams of product made.

~~~
anon102010
At least locally Kcups from Kurig are much more common - 100% plastic. I
always thought of the nespresso ones with the recycling bags as more enviro
friendly.

But I also thought Apple with its long support lifetimes for products and good
resale values was probably better for environment than the android junk with
uncertain supply chains, but HN regularly has stories trashing apple has
terrible for environment and never says anything about android so who knows.

------
alpineidyll3
Nespresso's machines definitely occupied a cost niche, but were too
troublingly wasteful for me. Fellow addicts looking to decapsule-- but not
interested in buying a 2k machine which will be killed by scale in 1 year can
check out Flair
([https://www.flairespresso.com/](https://www.flairespresso.com/))

It makes professional grade shots, has no unnecessary waste, and has nothing
to really break.

~~~
ntsplnkv2
The ones investing in 2k machines would not be using water that causes that
kind of scaling, or they can easily have it descaled.

To others, if you are not familiar with espresso, avoid manual espresso
machines - even with consistent top quality semi-auto machines good espresso
is not easy, let alone adding even more play into it with a lever machine.

I recommend not getting a home espresso machine at all unless you are really
into it. Moka pots, pour over, aeropress are all far far easier, much cheaper,
and far less finicky. Save the espresso for a trip to your neighborhood cafe
instead - they'll make it far better without the hassle.

~~~
defterGoose
| Save the espresso for a trip to your neighborhood cafe instead - they'll
make it far better without the hassle.

This simply hasn't been born out by my experience making espresso at home. By
spending about $7-800 on a Rancilio Silvia and a Baratza Vario, and dialing in
my process a bit, I'm able to consistently pull as-good or better shots than
the premium coffee places around me (LAX). Granted, you have to be detail
oriented to be consistently good, but once you've figured out the variables,
it's just process.

This whole experience has taught me that a multi-thousand dollar HE machine is
truly only as good as the person behind the portafilter.

~~~
ntsplnkv2
A baratza vario is what, ~450 USD? So you're over $1000 there.

> and dialing in my process a bit, I'm able to consistently pull as-good or
> better shots than the premium coffee places around me (LAX).

Man, that's sad. There are a lot of bad cafes out there - but there are many
good ones around me, and I live in a midsized city.

> This whole experience has taught me that a multi-thousand dollar HE machine
> is truly only as good as the person behind the portafilter.

The consistency is what matters - a bad barista makes bad coffee no matter the
machine. But expensive machines and grinders make more consistent coffee,
period, and offer much more chance for variation with PIDs, pressure change,
temperature change, etc.

Look, for us espresso afficionados, it may seem easy. But I remember my first
machine - it took me a year to pull consistently good espresso shots. Perhaps
our expectations are simply different.

------
dghughes
I like the concept of Nespresso but as others have said the waste is the
problem. You have to wonder though it seems like a simple problem to solve. In
my region a local businessman used potato starch to make "paper" plates. If
Nespresso could make biodegradable pod cases that would solve the waste
problem.

This article is timely for me I've only just discovered how to make great
coffee. I've had a French press and a cheap coffee bean grinder for decades.
With a little knowledge I finally made a really good cup of coffee. Nabob
beans $4 and a few minutes makes great coffee. It's so great that I went from
milky lattes and double-doubles to drinking it black. It's amazing how much a
tiny bit of milk or sugar muffles the taste great coffee.

30g coffee beans freshly ground, 450g water, 5 minute brew. It's so simple
with a French press no filters no electricity no pressurized steam.

~~~
wiether
As a french person, I wasn't aware of what was a "French press".

With the help of Google I've seen that I perfectly know what it is, but we
don't call it that way here and furthermore it's not a popular way of making
coffee.

But thanks for the knowledge !

~~~
SergeAx
Got to New York for the first time, had awful jet lag, found a place for
breakfast at 5:30 in the morning. Asked for Americano coffee. The whole diner
made big eyes, like "what do you mean?!".

------
totetsu
As much as I hate these pods, I think something like this tech could be used
to bring profits from coffee closer to coffee growers. There is a ridiculous
amount of middle men in between growers and drinkers. If you can get a factory
that can make a product that stays fresh when shipped globally, close to where
the coffee is grown. I think some Dutch company was doing this in Kenya.

~~~
herendin2
That's a very interesting idea. Any idea of the name of that Dutch company?

~~~
totetsu
I think i am remebering this podcast
[https://theoryofeverythingpodcast.com/2019/12/wake-up-and-
sm...](https://theoryofeverythingpodcast.com/2019/12/wake-up-and-smell-the-
coffee/) which covered African Coffee Roasters
[https://twitter.com/acr_ke?lang=en](https://twitter.com/acr_ke?lang=en) and
Coffee Collective [https://coffeecollective.dk/](https://coffeecollective.dk/)
so maybe it was a Denmark company

------
wonderlg
Nespresso is great until you realize that you’re paying a huge premium to
avoid using a spoon out of a coffee bag.

IMHO, it’s only slightly better than using that next-gen juice machine we all
know.

I have a small espresso machine at home and a 5€ coffee dispenser: 2 flicks
and you’re ready to brew.

------
doodpants
Informative article! I'm not a coffee drinker, and I never even heard of
Nespresso until the George Clooney ads started in the US (which according to
the article was in 2015). I've been under the impression that Nespresso was an
upscale rip-off of Keurig; didn't know it had been around since 1986!

~~~
EdwardDiego
Apparently he did those adverts to fund his Darfur satellite monitoring.

------
gumby
> “People prefer the taste of things when they think they have made a choice
> about it.”

This is a great story about origins, marketing, and pivoting your product.

------
lsllc
I have a Nespresso machine and TBH, being able to have a quick ristretto or
two literally inside a minute before flying out the door in the morning (pre-
COVID19!) was nice -- yet terribly wasteful with the pods.

Usually, it's drop coffee ... in fact my 10 year old $35 Mr. Coffee machine
broke recently and I had to (shock horror) resort to a cafetière & kettle (the
$30 Mr. Coffee burr-grinder thankfully still worked!). You know what? It's
fantastic, 4 minutes and push the plunger. Great tasting coffee ... maybe the
Mr. Coffee stays dead. In either case, at least the only environmental impact
is bio-degradable coffee grounds (maybe paper filter) and energy to heat water
(and grind coffee!).

------
m0llusk
Some scientists brewing herbs for research found Nespresso machines to be
almost perfectly efficient.

In my work with residential maintenance I find Nespresso machines extremely
common but also frequently broken. They are not easy or cheap to repair so
often there is an upgraded unit which also breaks. This raises significant
issues with durability and design for disassembly. Going for cheap with a high
end product may end up cursing the line over time. What I find enduring are
the older type of Cuisinart brewers which are made of relatively robust
components that are easy to replace. They are nowhere near as good but endure
actual use much better.

------
laurentdc
> The Nespresso system made every customer feel like a connoisseur: you had to
> make a choice every time you put a capsule in the machine, even if it was
> just between black or purple.

Ironically this is what turned me off. After borrowing a Nespresso machine
from my brother and buying ~50 different capsules to try out I got stuck in
analysis paralysis and decided to go back to my trusted Bialetti moka.

If anyone's curious out of all the variants I've tasted my favourite were two
of the cheapest off brands, Kimbo Armonia and Starbucks Blonde - the rest just
felt either too "fruity" or too "acidic" for my taste.

~~~
chipotle_coyote
The Starbucks Nespresso capsules are actually made by Nespresso, IIRC -- and
ironically they're so far the only "third party" brand that I've liked.
(Peet's Nespresso capsules aren't as good and they're actually _more
expensive_ than the first party ones, and some cheaper ones I got at Bed, Bath
& Beyond whose name escapes me were just terrible.)

------
brandonmenc
Since there seems to be a lot of hate for the Nespresso, I'll chime in:

I currently have a Nespresso, Aeropress, V60, a few Moka pots, and probably a
couple other devices I've forgotten about.

The Nespresso is super convenient and not bad tasting, but I put sugar in my
espresso - a grave sin according to coffee snobs in America - so ymmv.

Sometimes I want a shot of coffee but don't want to wait for the Moka pot. Yes
a Moka pot is convenient - versus an actual espresso machine - but it's
lightyears away from the Nespresso in that respect.

------
fredsted
I used to have a pod machine, and just found it didn't make very good coffee.
It didn't really taste like espresso. In fact, it didn't taste very good at
all.

After that, I started using a french press, which was nice, but I like
espresso more, and so I got a Sage Barista Express. Great machine, no plastic
waste, once you learn to use it you can create coffeeshop-quality drinks at
home for very little money–plus you can experiment with different beans.

The difference between a proper espresso and pods is _huge_.

------
SergeAx
> Nespresso’s getting close to saturation point, and there’s lots of
> competition

I would love to give a shot to aforementioned competitors, which would offer
comparable coffee quality, equipment price, fully automated brewing process
and variety of blends within walking distance in any major city on the planet.
Nice boutique-style retail store with competent personnel would be
appreciated.

~~~
hocuspocus
Since most patents expired, 3rd party brands started manufacturing compatible
capsules in aluminum (plastic copies have existed for a longer time, but
Nespresso fights that).

The fact you need to go to a Nespresso shop and/or order online is actually
fairly annoying. Most people want to buy coffee alongside their groceries.
That's probably biggest reason behind the Starbucks partnership.

~~~
SergeAx
Ah, you mean competitors are selling capsules, not the entire ecosystem. So, I
believe that's how success looks like)

~~~
hocuspocus
Except it's like printers, Nestlé is losing money on most Nespresso machines,
so if users start buying significantly fewer original capsules it'll threaten
the ecosystem.

------
syspec
The article reads like a hit piece. They kind of raise a question, but never
really show that it's grinding to a halt.

According to the article itself Nespresso is still growing:

> In 2013, the most recent year it released figures, Nespresso’s revenues
> totalled $10.8bn.

> In the summer of 2020, buffeted by Covid-19, Nespresso trundles on. In a
> recent email, a spokesperson reported “mid single-digit growth”

------
ThomPete
I eat and drink pretty well. Expensive wines, organic food, barista made
coffee, I go (went) to Michelin restaurants, drink good whiskey, I enjoy a
good barista made coffee and few things are as nice as getting it in a nice
café. I've also had espresso machines and done the whole thing proper.

These days I just have a Nespresso machine which makes great great coffee and
if I run out i just drink instacoffee. Once in a blue moon I will have coffee
beans lying around and I will make coffee press.

There are coffee puritans out there but they are just not the majority.
Nespresso coffee with the right machine and the right flavour is just as good
as any barista made coffee.

And with regards to waste, Nespresso offers free recycle bags if people want
to be environmentally friendly their is nothing to hinder them (my guess is
that most don't really care)

Nespresso offers a great product, great service I don't think there is any
risk of them going out of business anytime soon.

------
webwielder2
I think the Guardian may have pinpointed the least pressing question of our
times.

~~~
glxxyz
They were also slightly over-egging it with 'coffee revolution'; it's a
slightly different way of making coffee.

I work for a company too frugal to buy an espresso machine and Nespresso is
perfect for me at work. Cheaper and quicker than the cafe downstairs, decent
taste, and we recycle into a bag and drop them off at the local Nespresso
store. It's not a revolution though.

------
michelb
Having tried many machines and manual ways of making coffee, is there a real
difference between says a Nespresso, Mokka, or a top-of-the-line Jura? I mean,
given the same beans etc, is a Jura noticeably better tasting?

~~~
pizza234
I don't remember drinking a comparable coffee from a fully automatic machine.
Also keep in mind that the top of line Jura has two boilers, which make it
twice as expensive, but not necessarily better. I suppose that they're
generally targeted to shops; I've seen it only once or twice in a consumer
context.

There is a potentially significant difference between a Nespresso and an
automatic machine, which is qualitative and adhoc grinding. Producing
"nespressos" is fully vertically integrated. They have control over the coffee
beans, the grinding process (which can potentially be high quality), and the
machine. I doubt that a fully automatic sports a high-quality grinder (I guess
that most, if not all, don't have an acceptable quality one).

Regarding moka, there's no comparison. It makes a watery coffee. It's very
popular because it's the cheap and easy way to make an "espresso".

------
tguedes
I always thought Keurig was the first to come up with using the pods to hold
the ground coffee but it seems based on this article that it was actually
Nestle. Why did Keurig become the default standard in the US?

~~~
TheSoftwareGuy
This is talked about in the article. The Nespresso didn't quite catch on in
the US like it did in europe. Americans generally prefer to drink larger
quantities of coffee, often in the car. This does not lend itself well to
espresso. As such, K-cups got much more traction

~~~
AgloeDreams
Yup, plus the K-Cup machine is higher profit and lower cost to build than a
Nespresso machine. The BoM for Keurig is incredibly low for the selling price,
something like $12 on a $130 machine. They flipped the razor and blades model
and managed to make massive profit on both the razor and blades. I'm starting
to see evidence that Keurig is struggling now however, They have launched much
cheaper models and are all over the place looking for hits including ground
coffee. I think they realized that they are known for 'meh' coffee and know
that that brand wont get them to where they want to be next.

------
ToFab123
Every cup of coffee also produces one piece of plastic garbage. This is one of
the most wasteful machines and anyone that cares about the environment should
throw that machine in the garbage.

~~~
peteretep
> Every cup of coffee also produces one piece of plastic garbage

You didn’t read the article and you’ve misidentified the product.

------
gadders
If Investment Banking is anything to go by, these aren't going away any time
soon.

Normally each desk of traders has one shared machine for people to shotgun
espressos when they need to.

------
nottorp
What revolution?

Capsules are wasteful and expensive and you have no idea what's in them.

No capsules for my home use thank you.

I considered getting a fancy expresso machine that grinds the coffee for you
in place at the press of a button, but I decided against it because I'm likely
to overdose on coffee with one.

Filter coffee is good enough for me thank you.

~~~
CloudNetworking
Pretty much everyone and his mother in Europe has a capsule coffee machine.

P.S.: I won't comment about the filter coffee remark as it's clearly bait ;)))

~~~
nottorp
Nope. Even from my coffee snob friends, only one has had a capsule machine and
abandoned it anyway. And he's the kind that owns 3 different french presses to
start with.

~~~
CloudNetworking
Is that in Europe? I mean, I don't know anyone that does filter coffee in
Europe to be honest. Not trying to be snobby, it's just different habits I
guess (e.g. a watery black coffee is known as "Americano" in most places in
Europe I've been)

------
sien
It would be interesting to see how much impact better espresso machines and
cheap grinders are having on Nespresso.

A decent burr grinder, a Nanopresso and a milk frother is much cheaper than a
Nespresso and does something as good.

$AUD 10 Aldi beans with that is cheap and excellent.

~~~
maccard
I can't comment on the actual numbers for Australia, but in the UK at least,
there are online shops like hasbean that will roast & grind for you for
roughly the cost of a bag of premium supermarket coffee. It'll save you the
outlay of a grinder (and it's ground with a grinder that will be far more
consistent than what you buy).

~~~
askvictor
But freshly ground coffee is so much different to pre-ground. Once ground, it
starts oxidising immediately, so will start to affect the taste pretty
quickly.

~~~
Lio
Apart from being fresher, the grind is also one of the ways you control the
pressure you extract at in an espresso machine.

Depending on the machine you can either time the shots, use a pressure gauge
or just look at the flow coming out and verify by taste.

It's not much more complicated than if the pressure is too low the shot will
taste sour. So you adjust the grinder to grind larger.

If it's too low the shot will be overly bitter. So then you grind smaller.

I'm told the ideal pressure is 9 bar but really taste is the real test.

Once you have the grinder dialed in it will probably be fine for the entire
batch of beans and only need tweaking when the next batch comes in. (Although
if you may have to tweak it as the bag ages.)

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bdcravens
I have a Nespresso, but the novelty of home espresso quickly wore off. They
also do regular coffee pods for the machine I have, but I ended up going back
to the Keurig for its easier to find consumables.

~~~
chipotle_coyote
At least in my experience, Nespresso makes decent -- not amazing, but decent
-- espresso pretty consistently, but a Keurig rarely makes a decent cup of
brewed coffee. The Nespresso is brewing pretty much the same way a non-capsule
espresso machine would, but the Keurig is _not_ brewing the same way a non-
capsule coffee brewer would.

------
wooger
Pre-ground coffee is limited in quality, as it'll always be stale when it goes
into a mass production process as used by Nespresso. You need to be grinding
only <15 minutes before brewing to get the best flavour.

Likewise, you really want to be using beans within 2 weeks of them being
roasted, which will never happen either.

Nespresso suffers from old stale coffee, plus each pod contains nowhere near
enough coffee grounds to make even a vaguely strong cup of coffee.

Separate to all the waste issues, the coffee is weak and tasteless and to be
honest, I'd prefer a high end instant coffee vs. Nespresso any day, as I can
at least make it stronger.

To get nice coffee you need to start with fresh beans, and use enough of them.
I find a quick filter coffee to be much preferable 100% of the time.

~~~
newacct583
Unpopular opinion: the snobbery in the first two sentences is misdirected.
Those absolutely are not requirements for most coffee drinkers. I mean, I do
the food snob thing for a lot of items, but coffee just barely qualifies
relative to areas where there is genuine variability (tea, cheese or wine,
say). For 95%+ of drinkers, coffee is coffee and the only really signficant
distinguishing qualities are the roast (which persists on a shelf) and brew
strength.

Note that I'm not saying that there aren't coffee snobs who feel strongly
about this. I'm saying that the nature of the product is that there will never
be enough of them to matter.

------
peter_d_sherman
>"In 2013, the most recent year it released figures, Nespresso’s revenues
totalled $10.8bn."

~~~
AgloeDreams
I wish I could 'fail' that badly.

------
banku_brougham
Its not as good as freshly ground beans. <insert clip of Baron Harkkonnen>

------
mD5pPxMcS6fVWKE
I like powdered instant coffee with condensed milk, now kill me.

~~~
_emacsomancer_
At least this produces far, far less waste than Nespresso-style. And,
depending on exactly how they process it, may end up 'fresher' than coffee
brewed from old ground coffee.

------
Finnucane
A $5 plastic Melitta pour-over filter holder and a kettle make better coffee
than any machine.

~~~
chipotle_coyote
They don't make better _espresso_ than any machine. Pourover is not espresso.

~~~
perl4ever
I don't know what it is technically, but if I wanted something more _like_
espresso, I would use a moka pot instead. Not capsules.

~~~
so33
Nespresso isn't technically espresso either, as Wirecutter points out
([https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-nespresso-
ma...](https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-nespresso-machine/)).

That being said, I was under the impression moka pots require a lot of
cleanup. For drip, there's a lot of competition, notably the AeroPress, that's
only slightly less convenient than the Mr. Coffee machine. But I'm not aware
of a product like that for espresso-like drinks.

~~~
chipotle_coyote
I think I'll gently disagree with Wirecutter here, as much as I like them. The
Nespresso machine may make _thin_ espresso, but it's still espresso -- it
brews its espresso the same way a non-capsule machine does.

Moka pots are a little fiddly to clean and, well, a little fiddly in general,
I think. I use an Aeropress for brewing most of the time because it's less so.
You can make, hmm, "espresso-ish" coffee with it -- it's also actually brewing
coffee for a shorter amount of time than usual with greater than usual
pressure, when you think about it! -- but I'm generally aiming to get an 8 or
12 ounce cup of normal brewed coffee.

------
draw_down
People who prefer brewed coffee over the Nespresso are coffee snobs. Those who
prefer Nespresso over it’s cheaper competitors are... just savvy consumers, I
presume

------
trekrich
because its shit coffee.

