
Alabama immigration: crops rot as workers vanish to avoid crackdown (2011) - snow_mac
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/14/alabama-immigration-law-workers?CMP=share_btn_fb
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Animats
95% of tomatoes in California are machine-picked. Farms that use toughened
tomatoes can use very high powered machinery.[1] There are gentler machines
for more fragile varieties [2].

Now in test, picking robots for more fragile fruit.[3]

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3EpFTyN26E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3EpFTyN26E)
[2]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YeGOv87JE4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YeGOv87JE4)
[3]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mS0coCmXiYU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mS0coCmXiYU)

~~~
openasocket
Seems to make sense with something like tomatoes, where you can destroy the
plant during harvest like that. But looking at the apple one, I'm not sure if
it's as fast as a human being, and if it would be cheaper than human labor.

~~~
Animats
The apple picker is a prototype, from Abundant Robotics, an SRI spinoff. It
suffers from being a Silicon Valley R&D effort - the computer technology is
cool, and the mechanical parts are too flimsy. Somebody needs to get those
guys some hardass mechanical designers from John Deere or Caterpillar or
Ponsse who know how to make machinery work reliably in the field. I think
they're still at the angel investor stage. They'll need another funding round
soon, and if they're lucky, their funder will know who to put in there to get
the thing out of R&D and into production.

~~~
candiodari
> some hardass mechanical designers from John Deere or Caterpillar or Ponsse

Since all those companies are doing really badly, there should be plenty of
those to go around.

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tubehouse
California voters roundly approved a similar law in 1994. It even passed in
Los Angeles County.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_187](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_187)

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ransom1538
So crops rot. The price goes up. Now they can make more money selling crops.
So they can pay people more. What I am missing here?

~~~
groby_b
So many things.

In a first approximation: You can't sell crops that did rot. And the next
harvest is next year.

Then there's of course the fact that almost nobody (with citizenship) actually
wants to pick crops, no matter what you pay them, because it's back-breaking
labor. Yes, there'd be a price at which they would, but that's not a price the
public would pay for your crops.

Of course, if you don't give a shit about people and treat the world solely as
an economics textbook, sure, this is perfectly normal and the market is
working.

~~~
dikdik
>Then there's of course the fact that almost nobody (with citizenship)
actually wants to pick crops...

This is complete bullshit and needs to quit being touted. Americans are not
afraid of hard, back-breaking labor. I grew up in the Midwest surrounded by
corn and soy beans (and not too many illegal or legal immigrants). Tons of my
white, middle class friends went out into the field to pollinate corn in the
summers or went down to strawberry fields to pick when they came in season.

What a sheltered life you must lead if you've never met an American that does
manual labor or works in a field...

~~~
monodeldiablo
It's not "complete bullshit". Even at the height of the Great Recession, with
unemployment through the roof, American citizens were turning down field work
in droves.[1]

I've seen it myself. Some of it's cultural -- manual farm work is seen as
"beneath" people -- but most of it's economics. Nice that you grew up in a
time and place where a citizen could afford to work in the fields, but those
days are long gone. If you're not single and sharing the rent for your three
bedroom house with 10 amigos, you're not going to make ends meet on farm labor
wages and hours.

[1]: [http://www.cbsnews.com/news/despite-economy-americans-
dont-w...](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/despite-economy-americans-dont-want-
farm-work/)

~~~
flukus
Missing from that article is how much it costs people to take those jobs.
Travel expenses, lost benefits, etc.

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alistproducer2
I remember this. "Be careful what you wish for" is going to be a running theme
for the next couple of years. I suspect a lot of folks are going to be wishing
things had just been left alone.

~~~
toomuchtodo
No. I would rather automation replace the abuse of illegal immigrant labor.

~~~
myowncrapulence
If it was more cost effective, that would happen already. Produce prices will
likely rise if this becomes an issue.

~~~
BrandonMarc
... rise to a level that reflects a _fair_ and honest competitive market, as
opposed to one where the labor pool has two populations following two sets of
rules. Sounds like progress to me.

~~~
myowncrapulence
Yep and people will buy the cheaper produce from South American markets
boosting the economy down there.

Similar to how people buy Chinese manufactured products in Wal-Mart then
complain about manufacturing being overseas.

~~~
BrandonMarc
Sounds good to me.

* consumers would be paying a fair price with rational decision-making

* there would be "made in the usa" marketing for local / national produce

* voters would look much more carefully at minimum wage increases

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surfmike
What happened in Alabama since? Would love to read a followup.

~~~
logfromblammo
Most of HB56 was eventually struck down in court or settled out of existence,
and cops stopped trying to enforce whatever is left of it. It was a huge
embarrassment for the entire state, and likely contracted the state economy by
as much as 6% the year after it passed, most severely in agriculture,
construction, and hospitality. In subsequent years, investment stayed away,
because few outside the state wanted the blatantly racist and xenophobic
policy to rub off on their PR. But Alabama politics did not learn from the
experience; people in the state still overwhelmingly supported Donald Trump in
the 2016 elections.

Supporters of the measure _still_ believe it would have worked if it was just
allowed to operate as intended, rather than being blocked by the courts at
every turn. To be fair, it did cause many of the prohibited aliens to leave
the state, but it also caused their permitted and naturalized friends and
family to leave with them, and it turns out all those people are actually a
significant net benefit to the economy. Fewer crops have rotted, because
farmers don't plant what they can't harvest.

In short, the state is still ruled by bad hombres and nasty women that
shamelessly pander to an ill-informed populace.

[https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/what-alabamas-failed-
anti...](https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/what-alabamas-failed-anti-
immigration-law-can-teach-us-about-donald-trump)

------
swang
See also the documentary 9500 Liberty. I believe you can find it free online
legally.[0]

TL;DR:

Prince Cook County in Virginia instituted a similar check required by police
officers to ask for legality if there was "probably cause." The Police Chief
was against it but when it was enacted, enforced the law. This caused a bunch
of the immigrant families living there to leave, thus nearly crushing the
entire county's economy.

You get hot takes like "9/11 was caused by illegals" and people saying they
wanted to get rid of those who are, "Speaking Spanish, playing Latin music,
owning a chicken, growing corn, not having health insurance"

And also a whole bunch of people essentially saying, "i'm not racist, but..."

[0] [https://vimeo.com/128386646](https://vimeo.com/128386646)

~~~
candiodari
You also get a lot of people saying that the lax immigration is specifically
designed so that farmers (and restaurants, and even private persons) could
exploit labor instead of paying livable wages.

Since lax immigration's net result is a serious deterioration in labor
conditions, it shouldn't exist. And frankly, let's just not pretend this i
meant to increase the chances those people have in life, therefore it should
not be done.

These people would generally be referred to as "leftists". And please just
don't make the argument that people should "allow" themselves to be exploited
if they want to. It should simply not be possible to exploit labor. That means
no illegals and strict enforcement of immigration laws, especially against
employers.

Immigration laws protect people, among other things, against competing in a
global labor market. Why ? Because global labor conditions are disgustingly
bad.

Global median wage is $18000 PPP dollars (yearly). There are 2 terms that
require definition. Firstly median means 50% make less than that and you
should generally expect to make slightly less than that if you're not
exceptional. Second is PPP dollars. The "real" global wage in real dollars is
about $3000, but because bread is generally cheaper outside of developed
economies. To put it inaccurately but easily, you can buy $3000 worth of iPads
with PPP dollars, but $18000 worth of bread.

If you are unwilling to work for a yearly wage of somewhere between $3k and
$18k, and you think the law needs to prevent such a situation from arising,
then part of that law needs to be that illegal immigrants can't work in the
US. Otherwise such a law is crippled/sabotaged.

I get that the "gig economy" cannot exist under those conditions. And that you
will have to walk 200m if you want pizza in the weekend, or pay 40$ or so for
that pizza. That's what it takes for everyone to be able to live, and the gig
economy, frankly, deserves to be laid waste.

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rtnyftxx
they should call trump and as for the national guard

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nickff
IANAL, but I believe that the state is the only one with the authority to
deploy a national guard within its borders; the president can only deploy the
army domestically if the insurrection act is invoked.

