

The King is Dead? Long live... Scala? Clojure? - pragmatic
http://smuglispweeny.blogspot.com/2009/10/king-is-dead-long-live-scala-clojure.html

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fpgeek
In my opinion, Scala and Clojure aren't new "kings", they're hybrid languages:
bridges from the old paradigm to the new one, the same way C++ was around 2
decades ago. That's _why_ the "tail wags the dog" and sitting on top of the
Java runtime (or .NET for the Microsoft world) is what matters first.

That doesn't mean they won't have longevity and staying power (see: C++), but
they aren't the "kings", the Java runtime is (the same way C is for C++). If
you're looking for a new "king" you need to be looking for a language/platform
that is as different from the JRE as the JRE is from C. I don't think we know
what that would be yet (or why we'd invest the effort in that transition).

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mark_l_watson
I've had a difficult time getting into either Clojure or Scala - bought a book
on each, and had fun playing, but neither language felt great to me. I am
stuck on (J)Ruby, Common Lisp, and Java when I need it.

BTW, Kenny is about as close to a "pure Common Lisp" purist as you can get. I
worked with him for about half a year - cool guy,and very much focused on
Lisp.

~~~
mahmud
Kenny is a CLOS guy through and through; he admitted to never figuring how to
use restarts and he doesn't grok LOOP, IIRC :-P

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jrockway
Here is my prediction: it will take academia 10 years to stop teaching Java
1.2 and start teaching, say, Scala. It will then take industry about 20 years
to realize that Java is not "the best" anymore.

So for 30 years, everything other than Java 1.6 and C# will be "niche".

(Sure, there are plenty of non-Java shops around. But anywhere where software
is not the primary concern, it's the default. It got that way because of
marketing and an easy word to Google, not due to any technical merits. So the
new languages that are competing on technical merits are probably not going to
win in industry, only among the handful of programmers with a clue. Just
sayin'.)

~~~
buugs
I think you've missed how the computer world works, sure people still program
in fortran but that doesn't mean it is still at the same working extent.

cobol -> c++ -> java actually happened pretty quickly and I'd expect when a
useful alternative proves itself in a few niche senses on large scale a new
language will be adopted and everyone will have something else to complain
about.

~~~
jrockway
I think you're wrong; we will have to wait and see.

In the mean time, you shouldn't let the industry's stupidity affect you. Make
your own language decisions. (I work with someone who went to a hard-core Java
school. He is a great Perl programmer. You can hire "Java programmers" to use
real languages too :)

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cema
Let a thousand flowers bloom! (But yeah, clojure.)

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Confusion
_Steele said Java brought the world half-way to Lisp. I do not think Lisp
means what he thinks it means._

If someone like Steele disagrees with you on the meaning of something like
Lisp, then _you_ are probably wrong.

~~~
mahmud
Not necessarily; Steele is a programming polyglot and can hack in any language
thrown at him. Kenny is a Lisp weenie; you know, one of those guys who can
only code in Lisp.

I would take Kenny lisp aesthetic over Steele's, but Steele's technical
competency over anyone else's.

