
How to game the U.S. higher-education system - wallflower
http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2009/1/24/11657/1141
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jdrock
So.. gaming the system equates to studying well and working hard? That's.. not
what's usually meant by "gaming"..

~~~
jerf
"Congrats: you're a Princeton grad. For $60K. You gamed the system: you got
the pedigree _for just one years' tuition, at a school you probably couldn't
have been admission to for undergrad_."

Emphasis mine.

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dxq
I don't really see anything in the article that I would call "gaming" the
higher-education system. Maybe you could argue that the concept of going to a
cheaper school for undergrad and attending a prestigious grad school is gaming
the system, but that's not exactly a secret.

Achieve straight A's in high school, do well on standardized tests, suck up to
professors, study absurd amounts... This is more a guide of how to fall victim
to the higher-education system.

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mayank
From TFA: > that's why profs shy away from foreign students: they can't
contribute to discussions.

In a field like computer science, or indeed any engineering, I haven't known a
single professor to "shy away" from foreign students. To put it bluntly, they
wouldn't have much choice if they did.

The author prefaces his comment with "I don't mean to be a bigot", but
unfortunately, just saying that doesn't mean what you say isn't bigotry.
Lumping all "foreign students" into the same category sounds pretty bigoted to
me. And I speak as a foreign student who is perfectly able to "contribute to
discussions".

FFS, "foreign" != "can't speak English"

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gaius
Most technical terms are English regardless of the language. When I was an
undergrad we had a bunch of Greeks on my course, and when talking amongst
themselves it sounded like _malaga malaga_ second differential _malaga malaga_
surface area... You could understand them perfectly.

(malaga IIRC translates as "loser", the Greeks insult each other a lot).

~~~
xilun0
I'm not sure you can generalise: for example Math can be done 100% in French
(and is usually taught like that in France, at least up to the undergraduate
level). I've no doubt in other languages too. Computer science is a little
harder, but also doable. But I would say most people deeply engaged in the
field of computer science also know the English terms regardless of their
mother tongue.

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krschultz
He completely misses that graduate programs are known for their
specialization.

" 3.Grad school is more important. Particularly, whether you're moving up or
down: consider (a) undergrad at Penn State, grad at Harvard, vs. (b) undergrad
at Harvard, grad at Penn State. Option (a) is universally considered better,
and costs much less."

Not exactly. Harvard is nowhere near the top of the mechanical engineering
graduate program list. I'd be better off at the University of Illinois than
Harvard if that is what I am doing. More importantly, what the hell do you
want to do in your major? Some schools are great at fuel cells but not
robotics. Some schools are great at AI and computer vision but not other CS
disciplines. That is what you need to know.

~~~
pavel_lishin
I think people are focusing too much on examples he gives, assuming he's
recommending those specific schools to everyone, no matter what their actual
interest is.

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linhir
I just want to note, as Brown grad (he specifically points to Brown rather
randomly), that unless your parents are "rich" but won't give you any money,
you will never have 100k in debt from Brown or any "elite" school. That's just
not how it works. Now I'm not saying you don't leave with debt--most of my
friends have 20k or so in debt. I have about 9k, but that not the radically
high number that is being quoting. The only person I know who has a huge
amount of debt is from a family who has the money to pay full tuition
(retirement funds, home equity, savings, etc) but would not pay a dime for
their child's education. Now, maybe that's their right, but that friend (and
former roommate) is the only person I know who graduated with such serious
debt that they'd go to San Jose state for grad school (although he ended up
with the mindset that what's the difference between 100k in debt and 250k and
is getting a masters in Great Britain before likely going on to to law
school).

The problem is not the ultra-elite schools--Harvard, Yale, Stanford,
Dartmouth, Williams, Brown, etc--with large endowments and need-based
financial aid. The problem is the private schools in the middle, places that
charge 50k a year but don't have generous aid programs. If your choice is
between your state's university and Lehigh or GWU and you don't have money, by
all means take his advice. But if you don't have money, and you can get in to
Brown et al, then go. It is a deal. I grew up in an incredible working class
family, and I had to pay Brown $650 a semester, my father had to pay about the
same amount, and I graduated with 10k in debt...I did alright and hadn't won
any fancy college scholarships.

As for his larger claim that graduate school trumps undergraduate in employers
minds, I think that is true only up to a point. The rankings of graduate
schools across subject are radically different, and graduate school can have a
lot more to do with circumstance. My wife is working at X, so I had to go to
Y, I choose to do Y part-time because I love my job, I wanted to be a lawyer
in Iowa so I went to Iowa state even though I got in to Harvard (know someone
who did this), etc. But, the signal of what undergraduate school you went to
is pretty clear and strong in most employers mind. I'm not under the delusion
that Brown taught me much, that I could not have learned anywhere else, but
the school you go to sends a strong economic signal about your abilities
merely due to the admissions gateway itself. Now, there are special cases
where you find yourself in your 20s and all that, but to many employers, being
organized and "smart" enough high school so that Brown, Yale, Williams,
UChicago accept you, is a relative indication of your abilities, even if you
went somewhere less prestigious for grad school.

Most importantly, though, on this second thought, is that the cases are not as
clear cut as the author suggests. Signaling and employment are complicated,
and they don't boil down to any simple formula like undergraduate reputation <
graduate reputation or vice versa.

~~~
metamemetics
If I started a business and someone in their late 20s is still talking about
how they went to Harvard rather than how they've used their time since
graduating, I wouldn't hire them. The only thing the degree does is get you an
interview you should have got through networking.

~~~
pvxc
> The only thing the degree does is get you an interview > you should have got
> through networking.

And maybe you also gained some useful skills.

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bobf
I used a similar idea for my YC application answer to the non-computer hack
question. Basically, I hacked the traditional education experience and
graduated in 2.5 years, with ~$8500 of loans (without any scholarships/reduced
tuition), and with lots of great work experience (I worked full time during
school). Although I wouldn't advise this route for everyone, it worked out
extremely well for me. Here are a few tips towards hacking the undergraduate
experience:

1) As the author says, attend a high quality, low cost state school. If you're
going to get a masters, undergrad institution doesn't matter beyond being able
to get you into the masters program of your choosing. If you aren't going to
get a masters, I would wager it doesn't truly matter what undergrad school you
choose.

2) Determine your major _before your first semester begins_.

3) Plan your courses out meticulously, and don't take courses you don't need
to.

4) Take as many classes online as you can.

5) Many professors lectures are fairly useless as they just regurgitate their
powerpoint slides. Use this to your advantage -- do homework, work on your
online classes, do freelance/telecommuting work.

6) Use a service like RateMyProfessors to find sensible professors - there are
huge variances in amount of homework, number of tests, etc. between professors
for the same course.

7) Night classes are generally easier and have less homework, because they are
designed for non-traditional students with full time jobs during the day.

8) Take as many credits per semester as possible - for most majors, 15 is
pretty easy for smart/dedicated people, even with working a part/full-time
job. I took 24 my last semester, while working full time. It was basically
hell, but you can do _anything_ for 3-4 months of your life. (I probably
wouldn't have done that, except an older guy I worked with said he had done 24
in his last semester of his masters program, working full time, and with a
pregnant wife.)

9) Go year round, but take less classes in summer and get great
internships/work more.

10) Books:

a) Make sure you need to buy the book. Lots of classes don't really require
buying the book.

b) Make sure you really need the most recent edition, 95%+ of the time, the
last edition or two editions ago was fine for me.

c) If you have to buy a book, get used on Amazon marketplace, half.com, etc.
and resell them there after the class is over.

11) Get a job. This will help pay bills and reduce the amount of debt you
take. Ideally, get one which will benefit your career path and allows you to
work on homework. (I was a systems administrator in a generally not very busy
swing shift - among other jobs.)

12) Change jobs as often as you can find something that looks better on your
resume or pays more. Every job I took paid $10k+ more than the previous,
except when I took a pay cut to do a summer internship at Goldman Sachs ($50k
to $40k).

~~~
ubernostrum
All of this raises the obvious question: what thing of lasting value did you
gain from doing this?

~~~
mturmon
The above is a utilitarian approach: what's the path from here to the degree
that costs least in $ and time. I'm not wired that way -- but I have to
respect that bobf is making choices right for him.

As I get farther away from university, I get more glad that I spent a lot of
time in out-of-discipline coursework. I foresee that feeling deepening with
age, because it's a fact that it's hard for many reasons to have a wanderjahr
once you have a spouse, a house, a kid, a hard job, a history of acting a
certain way.

I fear that the utilitarian approach might, for some, become akin to the
concept of technical debt, except for your life and philosophy. You can
consider those hard questions now, or you can wait til later. But later, it
might be much harder.

~~~
bobf
That's why I majored in business, instead of CS/IS/etc :)

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krschultz
"Here's what I view to be the optimal path: Go to a cheap (but flagship) state
school (e.g., Penn State), enroll in the Honors program (due to great high
school grades), pay virtually nothing, and then (marginally) get into an
incredible Master's program at a school like Princeton; "

What? Penn State for non-residents is $35-40k.

I agree with his sentiment but Penn State is not a cheap school unless you
live in PA, it is another example of a marquee program that is almost as
expensive than a private school. (Actually it is more expensive than some very
good private schools).

Better advice is to go to the best state school in your own state, then go to
the graduate program that is excellent in your field (which may or may not be
Ivy).

~~~
pavel_lishin
I figured that the example given was a generic case, for people living in PA.

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devmonk
Great post.

"Grad schools is shorter." Author may want to fix the grammar here.

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ataranto
I'm amazed and shocked.

I'm amazed and shocked that kuro5hin.org is still around.

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Muzza
"In most careers, a Master's degree is required". Really?

~~~
TGJ
That's what I've heard from my professors. Bachelor level gets you working in
the lower levels with the possibility to move up fairly small. Masters get
working making more money and are the ones considered for promotions over any
others barring PhDs.

~~~
Muzza
But... The professoriat generally knows very little about industry and also
have a built-in bias to pushing people towards more education.

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tiber
Wow 2009 called and wanted your shitty irrelevant website back.

~~~
mquander

      user:    tiber
      created: 23 days ago
      karma:   1
      about:   Former K5er, /.er, digger
    

Too bad you didn't put your phone number in there, or I'd give you a call and
ask for advice about how I can stay on the cutting edge of the Internet like
you.

~~~
jedberg
At least he didn't taint the reddit name too. :)

