
Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia - walterbell
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/11/sweden-cashless-society-is-no-longer-a-utopia/
======
kristofferR
I'm a Norwegian who went to a Swedish music festival last summer.

I couldn't pay for a lot of things there, since the booths only accepted Swish
(the only relevant Swedish mobile payment solution, it's a de facto monopoly).
I couldn't sign up and use Swish on my phone, since it only accepts Swedish
bank accounts. I couldn't borrow money from my Swedish friends either, since
they didn't have cash (and it mostly wasn't accepted at the festival anyway).

When I could get someone to pay for me directly, transferring the money back
to them was hard (since the festival didn't have any ATMs), so I had to go
through the whole burdensome SWIFT procedure with getting their bank account
number, their full name and address, their bank info, IBAN number of their
bank etc, so I could send the money back when I got home to Norway.

Utopia my ass.

~~~
eksemplar
That’s festival payment done wrong, but cashless can be really great at
festivals.

In Denmark we have a festival called Skanderborg festival, and they build both
your ticket and your cashless payment into the festival bracelet.

You use the bracelet to pay everywhere, and you can add money to it a range of
payment methods, from using a visa or similar in their app, to visiting one of
the cash places where you can use an atm and then add funds to your bracelet.

It’s easily the best payment experience I’ve ever had at a festival.

~~~
bamboozled
The best payment experience I’ve had is cash. I pay for what I need and when I
leave the festival I can still use my “credits” hassle free anywhere I like.

~~~
yholio
The trouble with cash is that you cannot really control high-school dropouts
to charge $10 for a $2 beer without skimming a bit on the side. Hence this
whole "here's some fake money that only works here" BS.

~~~
paulie_a
Just do an incorrect inventory. Some venues let workers do inventory and
reporting. They are charging for the cup itself and that is how they determine
sales. If a stack of cups disappears, there is no reconciliation.

Music venues have some interesting procedures, Alpine valley allows under an
oz of weed to be brought in. They have college girls carrying backpacks with
40k in cash. There is an off duty cop directly behind though.

~~~
jstanley
Can you elaborate on that second paragraph? I don't understand how those
things are related to each other.

Why do they allow weed to be brought in? Why do they have college girls
carrying cash in a backpack? Why so much cash? Why is there an off-duty cop
following her around? Isn't an off-duty cop just an ordinary member of the
public? If a cop is required shouldn't it be an _on_ -duty cop? If it's
somehow a trap to catch drug dealers, how is it meant to work? Why do they
limit the amount of weed? And why are they trying to catch drug dealers at
all?

~~~
fotbr
Back in HS I worked at an amusement park for a summer. On a busy night, if I
closed the booth, I'd be walking out the park's employee exit around 2am,
through a somewhat busy and not-very-well-lit public area of the parking lot,
and across to the admin offices with 30k+ in a plastic bag. That was not an
uncommon amount for most of the non-token booths, and having 16-18 year old
kids carrying it out of the park to the admin building was also common, since
that was most of the park's work force.

I'd guess the "college girls carrying 40k in cash in a backpack" were
employees carrying cash out from whatever business/booth they were running and
taking it to their bank or head office or whatnot, and the "off-duty" cop
behind them was there acting as a security guard; since that's a somewhat
common side gig for cops, and in may places, they're still given all the power
and authority an "on duty" cop has.

I don't get the connection to the weed (legal or otherwise, it has never been
an interest of mine), but perhaps it explains the other bit.

------
CPLX
A society without cash is a society in which every person has no choice but to
get the permission of someone they don’t know and will never meet each and
every time they seek to obtain food, water, shelter, or transportation, and
that permission can be revoked instantly, silently, and invisibly at any time.

~~~
bouncycastle
Want to share about my experience about the "permission" part.

I once travelled to Beijing and had dinner in a fancy dumpling restaurant.
When I went to pay the bill, my European bank instantly flagged the
transaction and blocked my card from further use. I had no idea what happened
until I called the bank later that evening (had to wait until they opened). So
yeah, what you said happened to me - revoked instantly, silently, and
invisibly at the most unexpected time. And even though I didn't do anything
wrong.

~~~
samontar
That’s anti-fraud to stop someone from stealing your card and using it
elsewhere. You can usually pre-empt that by informing the bank of travel.

~~~
nvarsj
Anti-fraud is done for the bank's benefit, with little incentive to prevent
false positives. In my own experience, 100% of my blocked transactions have
been false over the last few years (since I moved out of the US, where fraud
is more rampant). It's extremely annoying - it's my money, but I can't use it
because the bank is being overly conservative.

~~~
angry_octet
100% of fraudulent transactions have gone through silently on my card. Despite
the fact that many times my bank has sent me an SMS querying whether something
was kosher. Doubly perplexing because they were OS hotel and airline charges,
I had a stream of local transactions (fuel, supermarket), I very rarely pay
hotels directly, and the bank makes it easy to tell them you are going OS.

After much drama they refunded me. The hotel didn't seem to even care --
presumably they were not getting a huge charge back. IDK if it was a 'card not
present' or what. They couldn't even tell me the name of the person using my
card -- privacy rules.

------
ploggingdev
No mention about the privacy implications of having every transaction tracked?
We're already at a point where pretty much every transaction is tracked and a
cashless society makes being tracked a requirement to function in society. Is
privacy even a topic of discussion with governments looking to go cashless?

I still try and pay with cash wherever possible, but many offline/physical
stores often require a phone number or email address to complete a
transaction, so privacy goes out of the window even when using cash.

~~~
avaika
Good point. There is a rumor among my local IT fellows, that some banks who
also run an insurance companies (or partner with some) share transaction
information with insurance guys to help them identify whether discount is
possible for a specific person or not. E.g. if someone frequently spends a lot
of money in pubs, most likely that someone will have health issues sooner or
later. So better to increase the insurance fee.

For sure such information trading is illegal, but as the government doesn't
give a single care, most likely it is true.

~~~
clubm8
>There is a rumor among my local IT fellows, that some banks who also run an
insurance companies (or partner with some) share transaction information with
insurance guys to help them identify whether discount is possible for a
specific person or not. E.g. if someone frequently spends a lot of money in
pubs, most likely that someone will have health issues sooner or later.

Or worse, what if they decide you had too much pub spending/fast food, so you
can't get that new organ you need?

I keep my "entertainment" budget (pubs, eating out, etc) in cash for this
reason.

------
nabla9
This is huge systemic risk (the possibility that an event at the company level
could trigger severe instability or collapse an entire industry or economy).

When the systems in major Nordic bank (Nordea, Danske Bank) or payment system
(Visa, MasterCard) goes down, people can't do anything until it's fixed. These
things are rare but they happen. Usually it's just few hours, but if the
condition persists even few days it becomes a major problem.

Mobile payment and cards are nice, but cash is good backup system.

~~~
o-o-
> if the condition persists even few days it becomes a major problem

How much cash does a person keep handy? If the condition persists a few days,
cash would also become a major problem.

~~~
NeedMoreTea
Such as when the Irish banks went on strike for about 6 months in the 70s.
Edit: It was a lockout not a strike.

They survived using olde worlde approaches with no loss of GDP growth or
retail sales. The retailers and local pubs operated as banks and managed the
movement of IOU credits and cheques. Publicans, as it turned out, were a
pretty good gauge of credit-worthiness and extent. Cheques ended up counter
signed dozens of times as they were passed on person to person many times.
Retailers would offer cheque cashing to keep money circulating.

[http://uk.businessinsider.com/pubs-replaced-banks-in-
ireland...](http://uk.businessinsider.com/pubs-replaced-banks-in-ireland-
in-1970-and-the-economy-was-fine-2016-1)

Now try that with an app. :)

~~~
Gatsky
Fascinating and an excellent point, thanks.

------
kartan
> Swedish legislation makes it possible for retailers, restaurants and other
> companies to refuse to accept cash, for instance by putting up a sign at the
> entrance or by the till.

Yes. It started as a curiosity and now this signs are everywhere.

> By connecting a bank account in any bank with a mobile phone number, Swish
> has become a popular way to share a restaurant bill

Yes. And to gather money for a friend's birthday or anything else.

> Why Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

I see the potential risks of this situation. But the article does not bother
to bring an analysis of them.

One thing is already happening. The oldest part of the population have a hard
time adapting to this situation. It's easier to take a bus and pay in cash
than to have to buy an e-ticket in your phone.

I would prefer to see such analysis than this e-krona nonsense.

~~~
jnurmine
I suppose the oldest part can get a card like SL has and occasionally load it
with cash and then just beep it when entering the bus/train? It is no more
difficult a concept than having a library card. They'll certainly get help
with the process at the ticket counter.

Is it a real, factual problem that old people cannot somehow pay for their
mass transit in the year 2018?

------
cf498
I was really shocked when i experienced the same issue in the Netherlands.

I went there for a conference and only had to go straight to Amsterdam
central, to science park and to my hotel in almere central.

I had to exit Amsterdam central station by scanning in the QR code of my paper
ticket. The alarm at that station was ringing constantly because of all the
foreign tourists who had no idea what to do.

Outside I had to go to the foreign help desk which was nice enough to give me
some kind of tourist paper ticket, which i do have to say, i have no idea how
it worked. Hopefully it was a rfid chip in the ticket, otherwise i triggered
every last scanner by just pushing it on top and walked out. And every last
person was heavily annoyed by all the retarded tourists. It did not help, that
apparently the Netherlands do not bother to put up English signs.

I luckily could pay in cash for the toilet in central station, but that was
really it when it comes to cash. I luckily could use my VISA for a train
station locker, but i could not buy a bottle of water, as the machine at main
station only took some kind of wireless card. The same applied to every
supermarket but one near my hotel.

I stood in 3 ordinary supermarkets and wanted to buy a simple bottle of water.
Thankfully one of the cashiers in the supermarket at science park was nice
enough to pay for a bottle of water for me in exchange for cash.

How every nice the Netherlands are, it is a modern Dystopia.

~~~
phiresky
> The same applied to every supermarket but one near my hotel.

I've been able to pay everywhere I've been to in the Netherlands with a normal
European debit card with chip + pin (Maestro I think)

~~~
cf498
I gave them my Visa and V-Pay card, and only one of the patrol stations took
it.

Everyone else willing to take my non Netherland card were places who would
also take cash, like mcdonalds.

There seemed to have been a certain kind of regional card which i did not
have.

edit: dont take me wrong, i should have looked up the local payment procedure
before going there, I was just extremely surprised as this happened to me
directly across the border inside the EU.

~~~
bathory
V-Pay should be accepted by any shop in NL. I am not sure where the issue
comes from, as there is no card, specific to the region.

In NL maestro/v-pay cards are accepted 100% of the time, because those cards
are issued by all banks there.

~~~
cf498
I tried it, maybe it was the language barrier but I had shops who simply send
me away. I had a longer conversation with the cashier in the SPAR shop on the
science center campus about it who told me my v-pay card was the wrong one and
cash was not an option. It worked out in the big shopping center in Almere
where people also took cash.

------
beefman
The article says circulating cash is 1% of GDP and falling. In the US, it is
8% and rising (with a high of 12% in 1946 and a low of 4% in the early 1980s)

[https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=lZye](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=lZye)

Edit: See also this table

[https://www.bis.org/publ/qtrpdf/r_qt1803/images/tab6-A.jpg](https://www.bis.org/publ/qtrpdf/r_qt1803/images/tab6-A.jpg)

(from
[https://www.bis.org/publ/qtrpdf/r_qt1803g.htm](https://www.bis.org/publ/qtrpdf/r_qt1803g.htm)
)

------
corodra
I can’t find the article, but didn’t another Nordic country, where they’re
going cashless already find a flaw? Their communication infrastructure had
some sort of disruption, I don’t think it was an attack, but a failure of
something for like half a day. Because of that, merchant services were
screwed. Few people could buy anything since few carried cash.

Don’t get me wrong, I barely carry cash on me. I just have a bit in a safe.
But I recognize the vulnerability. Natural disaster. Black out due to a node
failure or two. An actual attack on the merchant services infrastructure or
bank. Sure, cash can be stolen. But so can digital funds and you’re not
limited to how much you can fit in a bag and carry.

It’s also funny how folks complain about privacy and not wanting private
entities to have their nose in their personal lives and track what they do.
Especially those Vikings whine about that regularly. Yet they trust how much
data with merchant service companies?

~~~
antt
Back in the old country we had a dozen currencies, gold and jewels hidden in a
fake brick for that exact reason.

When you need to buy a train ticket to get away from the Germans or Russians
you don't want to be asking "Sorry do you accept AmEx?".

~~~
corodra
I grew up that if the Russians or Germans are coming, you’re going to use
vodka as a currency.

------
Blackstone4
Hardly independent.... this is an advert for e-krona a crypto alternative to
cash/electronic payments.

Strawman.... title is built on a false premise that someone argued Sweden's
cashless society was a utopia.

Can't believe I clicked on this.

~~~
o-o-
Advert? E-krona doesn't exist. It's not in development, and there isn't even
an architecture in place.

The "advert" was written by the Deputy Governor of the Central Bank of Sweden.

------
platz
headline is a bit overblown compared to the conclusion of the text.

> no longer a utopia

was it ever? who ever claimed it was a "utopia"?

main points:

\- If cash stops working, it would leave all individuals to rely on the
private sector alone to get access to money and payment methods.

* One option is to do nothing, meaning we accept that the general public no longer has access to central bank money.

* A second alternative is to issue central bank money in a digital form, as a complement to cash and the money held in bank accounts.

seems like they've been thinking about this for a while

~~~
mostlydefinite
There's an alternative to relying on the private sector, which is for cash to
be replaced with credit notes. The Irish bank strikes of the early 70s is a
nice case study of this happening [1].

I've recently been thinking about a potential solution to the reliance on
private institutions in a cashless society. I guess the problem with a "mobile
chequebook" or something of the sort is that you are always to some extent
dependent on a private service (e.g. phone signal provider).

[1][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_bank_strikes_(1966%E2%80...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_bank_strikes_\(1966%E2%80%9376\))

------
eric_h
I like physical cash. I don’t always use it, and generally use my points
earning credit card at places I frequent, but don’t at places I’m new to or
have no intention of returning to (unless I don’t have enough cash on me). The
number of times my card has been stolen has entered into the 10s, even in our
new chip card era (I’ve had three chip cards compromised, but can only
definitively attribute one of those to it having been stolen after typing it
into a website. i.e. no chip involved). Apple Pay and its ilk are a step in
the right direction (and convenient because they still work when the physical
card is cancelled), but still traceable and beholden to additional parties.

If I’m somewhere where I think the transaction might be sketchy, I can pay
cash and not think about it any further. Skimming, however, is still a thing
and every time my card is stolen it causes me an inconvenience that would not
exist if I’d used cash.

“Bitcoin/cryptocurrency will fix this!” some of you will say. Perhaps, but
it’s got a long way to go. All the USD I have in my pocket still says “this
note is legal for all debts, public and private”, I don’t personally think a
sign saying “we are cashless” at the cash register after I’ve ordered my food
is acceptable (those establishments I’ve encountered didn’t accept bitcoin,
either).

I acknowledge what it says on usd currency is somewhat tangential to a Swedish
cashless society, but I still think cash should be king, or at least always
accepted.

~~~
akvadrako
Chips use a private key to sign transactions and can't be copied, at least
without being taken apart. So they are secure if all merchants require digital
signatures. But for credit cards, they don't do anything to prevent your
number from being stolen.

------
hannasanarion
Why does there need to be a separate government issued digital currency?

Presumably all of the private accounts that people are currently using are
measured in Kr already, and the banks already operate at fractional reserve so
the actual paper doesn't exist. As an American, I make about one cash purchase
a year, but that doesn't mean that I'm not spending US Dollars.

It seems to me that calling digital money "e-krona" will change exactly
nothing but nomenclature.

~~~
clintonb
> The development raises some crucial issues regarding the state’s role in the
> payment market. For hundreds of years, the public has been offered central
> bank notes and coins. If cash stops working, it would leave all individuals
> to rely on the private sector alone to get access to money and payment
> methods. This would be a historical change without precedence. Norway is
> seeing a similar trend, and the two central banks are cooperating in this
> area. In the Eurozone, cash is still used to a high degree. The value of the
> outstanding amount of cash is equivalent to 10% of the Eurozone GDP, versus
> the Swedish equivalent of only 1%.

A government system ideally guarantees access to every citizen/entity desiring
to possess "cash". A system run by a private entity doesn't have to do so. If
you don't agree/fall out of compliance with the terms of service of a private
system, you can be banned. The same can be done on a government system, but at
least you have the option of court intervention and voting people into/out of
office.

~~~
pishpash
Private entities can be regulated to the same effect on the matter of access.

~~~
FabHK
As the article discusses:

> One option is to do nothing, meaning we accept that the general public no
> longer has access to central bank money. Such a future would imply a changed
> scope for the public sector. The payment market would have to be regulated
> and supervised in new ways to meet fulfil the objective to have a safe,
> efficient and inclusive payment market.

> A second alternative is to issue central bank money in a digital form, as a
> complement to cash and the money held in bank accounts.

------
DINKDINK
Related reading: "If plastic replaces cash, much that is good will be lost –
Brett Scott | Aeon Essays" [https://aeon.co/essays/if-plastic-replaces-cash-
much-that-is...](https://aeon.co/essays/if-plastic-replaces-cash-much-that-is-
good-will-be-lost)

------
StanislavPetrov
One thing I haven't seen mentioned which is of particular concern given recent
developments is that if society is cashless, what if the bank or "swish" or
whatever private company is running cashless transactions decides to
"deplatform" you because they don't like your political opinions (or the color
of your tie, or anything else). Its one thing for a social media site to erase
someone's online presence, or a hosting company to prevent you from having a
web presence, or even Paypal preventing you from getting electronic payments
through there service - because your life doesn't depend on it. If 'swish'
decides it no longer wants your business, how do you survive? How do you buy
food? How do you pay the rent? Aside from the Orwellian privacy/tracking
implications (by both governments and corporations), the massive transfer of
power to electronic transaction corporations is frightening.

~~~
AngryAnt
This is exactly the "no longer utopia" part of the article (or the extreme end
of it anyway). With private systems, this is a real possibility.

------
zakum1
The article avoids mentioning the most important issue around central bank
issued digital currencies:

Currently my electronic cash balance represents a deposit at a commercial
bank. On the other hand, when I hold physical cash, it is a direct obligation
between the central bank and I. As mentioned in the article, 90% of cash
balances are electronic money held at Commercia banks.

With a central bank issued e-krona, there is no role for commercial bank
deposits, the e-krona is a direct obligation between the central bank and
individuals/companies. This means that commercial banks have very different
balance sheets to use for lending. It fundamentally changes the financial
system and creates very different payment and lending opportunities.

Initially the central bank may only issue <10% as e-krona to avoid this
impact, but it makes little sense not to follow through to making e-krona the
only form of cash.

------
flurdy
The propriety solutions and its near monopoly in both Sweden & Norway (and
perhaps other countries) are also due to the slow expansion and adoption of
Apple Pay and Google/Android Pay into those countries.

Apple Pay was only launched in Norway earlier this year and Google Pay only a
few weeks ago. So the propriety solutions have had a lot of time to establish
their monopoly.

Also, Apple/Google pay uses the Visa/Mastercard/Amex networks whilst 8 out of
10 of all card transactions in Norway is via BankAxept. BankAxept payments are
near instant and has a very low transaction fee. A flat fee of 24 øre (0.03
USD) which most of the time a lot less than Visa/Mastercard that charge 1-2%.

You will find a lot of independent merchants in Norway, e.g. corner shops that
won't accept Visa & Mastercard, but only accept BankAxept. This is also why
Apple Pay only works in a few places, compared to the UK where I live where
Apple Pay is accepted nearly everywhere.

[1] [https://www.norgedaily.com/google-pay-launched-
norway/](https://www.norgedaily.com/google-pay-launched-norway/)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BankAxept](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BankAxept)

[3]
[https://no.mobiletransaction.org/bankaxept/](https://no.mobiletransaction.org/bankaxept/)

~~~
AnssiH
> Also, Apple/Google pay uses the Visa/Mastercard/Amex networks whilst 8 out
> of 10 of all card transactions in Norway is via BankAxept. BankAxept
> payments are near instant and has a very low transaction fee. A flat fee of
> 24 øre (0.03 USD) which most of the time a lot less than Visa/Mastercard
> that charge of 1-2%.

For comparison, in Finland, where debit cards are all VISA and Mastercard, the
merchant rate for those cards is usually ~0.3% (with Nets capping it at
0.75€). Non-EU cards have higher fees.

(Finnish source e.g. [https://www.yrittajat.fi/uutiset/572780-maksupaatteet-
hintav...](https://www.yrittajat.fi/uutiset/572780-maksupaatteet-
hintavertailussa-izettle-nets-vai-verifone))

------
upofadown
The article failed to give any real detail about what is being proposed. I
suspect it would have to be something like Taler[1] where the buyer is
anonymous but the seller is not. That allows the collection of sales taxes and
allows the government some control over the currency.

[1] [https://taler.net/en/index.html](https://taler.net/en/index.html)

~~~
greglindahl
Note that the article is about Sweden, which has a VAT, not a sales tax. One
great property of VATs is that they encourage reporting.

------
badrabbit
This is a major societal change. I for one believe there needs to be a
tangible method of payment where a 3rd party is not requried for transactions.

I don't care if it's cash or some digital payment coin/card. The point
is,people nees to be able to transact without a 3rd party and be able to buy
physical tokens(as opposed to wire transfers and digital tokens).

People are too careless when changing fundamental aspects of their society.
Payments can be made convenient,peer to peer and have a small amount of
participation barriers.

------
CaliforniaKarl
Last night, I stopped at an ATM on downtown Mountain View, to get some cash.

I have my debit card loaded in Apple Pay, for the sole purpose of making my
ATM visit faster.

The ATM told me that my virtual card wasn’t acceptable to use to pull out
cash; it advised me to use a debit card from my virtual wallet.

Except, that’s what I was using.

It was 8:30 PM, and I didn’t expect any prompt support from the bank. So, I
used my physical debit card.

I consider both real and virtual cards to be conveniences, but they’re
definitely not replacements.

------
qwerty456127
Cashless society is not an utopia, it's an antiutopia. Every penny you pay or
receive cashless (unless it's some sort of privacy-centric crypto) is
monitored.

~~~
alkonaut
The e-krona will most certainly need to be a decentralized ledger or I don’t
see the point at all. For centralized (I.e monitored) transactions the systems
we already have are good enough.

------
WheelsAtLarge
My problem with cashless and just about everything electronic tech is: What
happens when the network/power fails? What's the goto alternative? No one
seems to point that out? It should not stop progress but it's important to
make contingency plans in case of mass failure.

I wonder if salt as money will be fashionable again? :)

~~~
mr_toad
If we ever have some sort of apocalypse, I’m guessing that the popular barter
commodities will reflect society’s vices: cigarettes, alcohol, coffee, sugar
and porn.

~~~
NateEag
Since most porn is produced and consumed digitally (I assume - it's not
something I pay attention to), in an apocalypse I doubt it would be a viable
commodity. Any apocalypse worth its salt takes down the grid.

Prostitution would likely increase, though.

I'll add salt to your list as well.

------
MrTonyD
We need control over those who control our credit. As I read this article I've
just arrived in London - my 4th trip here in as many months. And CapitalOne
has started declining my charges again - even though I'm staying at the same
hotel with the exact same charges as always. I have about $20,000 in credit
with a zero balance, but that doesn't seem to matter either. I tried calling
them before the trip - and was told that they don't need advance notice of
trips. (I guess their fraud protection is so good - they just stop accepting
charges.) And of course they only accept calls to resolve the issue - and on
these international trips I usually don't have easy access to a phone. We are
essentially prisoners of these credit card companies.

------
zingar
It's weird to me that their version of cashless doesn't work for foreigners.
Every vendor in South Africa takes Mastercard or Visa, or a mobile payment
system backed by a credit card. It's not strongly linked to a local bank
account. Not a cashless society, but the transition would be pretty smooth for
me.

When I travel to Europe, UK, Australia I have the same experience (maybe not
quite the same ease of mobile payment).

The only reason I'm not cashless here is cash tipping, 99% to homeless people
or very poor sales people on the side of the road. For weeks now I've been
getting frustrated with myself for not having any cash in my wallet and having
to disappoint people, although at the same time grateful for the ease of not
dealing with cash.

------
fernly
Hmmm... quote,

> The basic concept for e-krona is as follows: it would be digital, and have a
> 1-to-1 conversion with an ordinary krona held in an account at the Riksbank
> or stored locally, for example on a card or in a mobile phone app.

> The technology to build a functioning e-krona is already available today. It
> is not dependent on using distributed ledger technology and it is not to be
> confused with cryptocurrencies.

I'd like to know what this available technology is, that can create a digital
object that guarantees a 1:1 correspondence to a physical asset, cannot be
duplicated or multiple-spent. Has Sweden discovered the un-copy-able bit?

~~~
Immortalin
Banks, Visa, PayPal, pretty much most in-game currencies, as long as your
maintain control over the data storage and deny access to malicious actors
there is no reason why a traditional DB system would not work.

------
robben1234
As strong as I hate dealing with cash, it can't be dismissed in current
society. In many places you don't want to use card as it's sketchy, in many
places you don't want to have a log in your bank account (like going to a bar
midday on a Tuesday).

Not to mention a classic meaning of cash, or just money: you get things for
it. If you are getting robbed one thing is to give $40 because that's all you
had in the wallet and completely other getting robbed for all money in your
account. That's just one scenario.

I'm not sure I would want to live in a society without cash.

------
nolemurs
This article is just fear-mongering and speculation. No facts are given to
support the title, and the proposed solutions to the problem (which is never
established) are vague to the point of meaninglessness.

Skip the read.

------
mamon
More appropriate name would be "dystopia" because banning cash will have
mostly adverse effects, intruducing nearly-totalitarian control over the
citizens being the most important one.

~~~
solarwind
If you are a Canadian citizen who ever used a credit/debit card at a cannabis
dispensary (or if you even just invested or worked for a Canadian dispensary),
you are now permanently barred from entering the United States. A cashless
society is a totalitarian society.

~~~
berdario
Is this for real?

How would the the DHS or another US entity know about payment transactions
made on a canadian bank account?

And, I realize that cannabis is not legal at the federal level in the US, but
how would lawfully purchasing a cannabis product years ago disqualify you from
entering the US?

~~~
vetinari
I don't know about this specific case, but if you used a credit or debit card,
it would be processed by Visa or Mastercard, which are both US companies,
subject to US laws and regulations. That's how the US entities would know.

------
dumbfoundded
I'll repost an old comment of mine:

"The scariest part to me about cryptocurrency is not the greed, lies and
manipulation. It's a centralized cryptocurrency by a major government. Imagine
if instead of cash, you had to pay for everything with a digital currency
controlled by the US Govt. It'd be all the immutability of cryptocurrency with
the monetary policy of the Fed Reserve. I'd bet the IRS and NSA would love the
additional data."

------
_cs2017_
Do dope dealers and brothels accept Apple Pay, or do people somehow get US
dollar cash for those expenses?

~~~
tokai
I have heard about pushers using mobile payment services. Some even advertise
their business on facebook.

~~~
oxide
I've never heard of a street level dealer in the US take anything but cash to
my knowledge.

If you do, you're a good dealer and probably an outlier. Also, the further you
go up the chain of command the less likely you'd be to run into someone
accepting these types of payments as well.

I.e. the middleman might let you Zelle him the money, but he is probably
paying with physical currency on your behalf to the actual dealer. The dealer
might do the same, but the supplier is being paid with physical currency. The
dealer supplier allows it, but his suppliers are accepting cash only. Etc.

Meanwhile you can use BTC to have those same drugs shipped to your door,
through an onion based marketplace or whatever, or even the clearnet if you
arent buying specifically controlled substances.

------
dharma1
I’m surprised central banks haven’t become involved in digital currency
before. I guess software isn’t their core competence.

I guess if anyone can pull it off the swedes will. And I don’t think they are
offering a replacement to physical cash here - just an alternative

------
tqwhite
Misleading title alert!!! It says nothing about it's being a utopia or having
stopped being one. It is an interesting article about the eventuality of a
truly cash-free society and its consequences. Only the title is stupid.

------
zmk_
The article makes Sweden into something it is not. First, Swedes are not as
eager to adapt new technologies as it may seem from the text. Case in point,
NFC is just arriving in the country and in one of the main grocery shops, that
has its own bank as well, you can only use store cards this way. A small
subset of cards are also still swipe-only. In all honesty, Poland seems like a
better example of this as it is effectively the sandbox of Europe for consumer
finance.

Second, this trend is visible in many countries in Europe. In my 7 years in
the Netherlands before I moved to Sweden, it would be unusual for me to have
any cash on me and in recent years the number of 'pin' (card) only points of
sale there has been growing tremendously.

~~~
alkonaut
NFC terminals are growing at the same rate as NFC cards, but cards have a
pretty long lifespan so my old debit card which is ~5 years old is still chip
and pin, while my new credit card from the same bank is both chip+NFC.

I’m not going to go through the hassle (a few clicks) of replacing my card
just to get NFC. The same goes for retailers, terminals get NFC on the next
replacement.

~~~
zmk_
Most of the terminals I see are NFC ready, but NFC payments are not enabled.
In particular, ICA has Yomani terminals and does not accept cards not issued
by them. In other countries NFC has been introduced years ago. In the
Netherlands, most of the cards were replaced in 2013 and the full rollout of
the tech was in 2014. The fact that a card is valid for longer does not mean
that it cannot be replaced beforehand.

------
kqr2
How do tourists deal with Sweden? Can you get a temporary Swish account?

~~~
yxhuvud
They better have VISA or Mastercard - those have even better coverage than
Swish.

------
z3t4
With physical money there is wear and tear, but every time a "digital" bill
change hands 1-5% of it's monetary value is lost (transferred to someone else
pocket).

~~~
akvadrako
That's only true with some digital transactions. In Europe most merchants that
only accept local cards pay 0.3% or about 25 cents.

------
cordite
Isn't china's cashless move bearing similar problems?

------
fouc
Everyone. Imagine you don't have a smartphone, or a bank account, or credit
cards, or debit cards.

Can you survive? Can you pay for your housing, food, entertainment?

------
lanevorockz
It would only be acceptable if the cashless society supported both anonymity.
It's the only way to avoid discrimination and enforce fairness.

------
kingofhdds
So, one can't spend a single penny there without being monitored, but let's
instead talk how web cookies are cruel privacy invasion.

------
coldtea
Yay, state surveillance of every transaction....

------
trophycase
Cash is integral to financial privacy in the current world. Very sad trend to
see.

------
eric24234
Similar thing in india is happening with a single monopoly player paytm.

------
the_clarence
London is pretty much cashless, everybody uses Monzo fot everything.

------
bearcobra
I recently took a road trip across North America, and was a little surprised
by the number of cash only transactions I faced. Toll roads in particular were
a big pain. It's kind of crazy that we don't support both methods in a
reasonable way

------
jonathangrahl
Who ever said it was a "utopia" with a cashless society?

------
vinniejames
Why couldn't you send your friends crypto currency?

~~~
PeterisP
For the vast majority of people it would be a major inconvenience, requiring
non-trivial time and effort to set up everything required to receive the
equivalent of, say, $10 in crypto converted to the local currency in their
bank account, which is the only place when it starts being usable money to
them.

------
buboard
Not utopia, dystopia

------
throwaway487548
This is a common pattern - a bunch of disconnected from reality (literally,
inside academical enclaves and mentally, living in a world of pure
abstractions and ideas) pundits are advocating to destroy (or "reform") a
vastly complex systems they do not fully comprehend, leave alone understood.
Their abstract memes spread like viruses through naive minds of unthinking (or
at least not thinking critically) people, and eventually society become
literally sick with this or that nonsense.

This very pattern was behind marxism and all its tragic consequences. Exactly
this pattern.

If you like a more recent example - look no farther than the crypto buble,
based solely on memes and nothing but memes (well, very clever memes, indeed).

Cash plays a fundamental role in any society - it is means of anonymous,
untraceable, quick payments. Any healthy economy needs this kind of
transactions. It is literally what we mean by "liquidity" \- like a flow of
red blood cells through the whole system. Do not mess with it.

The pundits would argue that cash payments could be abused. Well, kitchen
knives (even forks!) could be abused too. Shall we advocate a kitchenless
society?

Other countries have tried to mess with cash (India recently - thank god they
kept _small_ notes in circulation) and the result was disastrous. Again, some
disconnected from reality abstract ideas were used to justify the move.

What I am trying to say, is that this is the common cancer and the name of it
is Liberal Arts "education", "humanities" and "academia". These people should
not be allowed to govern because their minds are distorted with nonsense they
have "studied" (memorized). Think of marxists or hegelians or platonists.

Sweden, unfortunately, has been ruled by platonists and hegelians, if not
marxists, for last few decades. The results are... well, read the news.

------
olivermarks
Cash is king.

------
AnabeeKnox
Racism! Stong word, but this is what the Swedish cashless society is: indirect
racism. Those at the margins of society are excluded from participating in
society because they don't have Swedish bank accounts or Swedish credit cards.
Many clubs and pubs require that to enter. Indirectly, this means that non-
Swedish (non-white) people don't get into the club. Not direct racism, but
indirect (the outcome is the same, no white people allowed entry, or to
participate in society).

~~~
PeterisP
What's stopping non-white immigrants (presumably residents of Sweden staying
there for a nontrivial time) from getting a Swedish bank account? If there are
significant barriers to _that_ then the "getting into a club issue" is a
trifle compared to the broader participation in society. E.g. how are they
getting paid for their work if almost no legal employers will pay salaries in
cash?

~~~
alkonaut
I think it may be a misconception from someone from e.g the US where there is
a threshold for getting a bank account.

~~~
PeterisP
Yeah, around here any old homeless alcoholic would have a bank account,
because that's the only way how they'd get social security payments, and also
any student (or working teenager) would have a bank account, because that's
the only way how they'd get paid for a summer job or internship or study loan
or whatever.

A bank account is a basic thing that's required (at least in come countries)
for any participation in the economy and should be available to anyone; IIRC
there's an EU directive about a requirement that everybody must be able to
access basic banking services.

------
jamesblonde
As a resident of Sweden, i can only say that this is the future for all
western countries. Life is just better without cash. We don't pay the mental
tax of always ensuring i have dollar bills on me to tip left, right, and
center. Your phone is enough to get you through the day. The govt is still run
by the people for the people here, so most people aren't worried about
totalitarianism. Most beggars now have signs with their phone number to swish
them cash - because nobody has cash to give them (the other form of begging is
collecting plastic bottles and cans with deposits).

~~~
cjhanks
As long as you are fine with companies tracking every place you go (via GPS),
everything you purchase, everything you view on line, and everybody you know.
Then sure, the phone can replace cash.

Often I do not want any record that I have purchased something, I will stick
with cash. Thanks.

~~~
Paperweight
"I don't care about privacy because I have nothing to hide" = "I don't care
about free speech because I have nothing to say"

