
Ask HN: How do you deal with professional envy? - cneurotic
I think everyone feels envious of a high-flying peer once in a while. Or at least, I definitely do.<p>When someone younger than me, in my field, is making more money &#x2F; getting more acclaim &#x2F; winning praise from people I respect, it makes me seethe. Sometimes I even waste my time looking for a way to invalidate them, to put an asterisk* on their success, so I can feel better about myself.<p>Does this happen to anyone else? What do you do about it?
======
untog
I think there's a process everyone has to go through in life of working out
what truly makes them happy.

When you're in your early 20s everyone has similar goals - you're going to be
a goddamn giant success, no matter what your field is. As the years go on you
realise that's not going to happen and you have to re-evaluate. It's not
always easy.

For me personally, I know I do good work. I know my coworkers can rely on me
to deliver. Maybe I could be out there giving more conference talks and
raising my profile, but I've learned to accept that isn't my forte, and that's
ok. As engineers most of us are extremely lucky that even with very little
public recognition we still earn the kind of money most people can only dream
of.

When I'm at work, I do the best I can do. Then I get out of the door at a good
time, go home to my family and have a blast with them. I'm happy, though my 21
year old self might recoil in horror to see it.

~~~
o-__-o
FWIW no one aspires to be Scottie Pippen or Dennis Rodman, we all wanna Be
Like Mike.

But Pippen had the most rebounds and Rodman the most assists during that time.
That’s what made the team win, you want to win as a team and there is no I in
team. Then you retire from engineering, never making the next Facebook or
revolutionary Operating System, instead going onto lead the next generation
stars to the promised land even though you were never an individual superstar
during your career (see Steve Kerr for reference).

Update: also Rodman talked Kim Il down from nuclear disaster, so there is
plenty of opportunity to stay relevant as your career progresses

~~~
dnh44
Not that it matters to the point you're making but Rodman was the one known
for the rebounds.

------
rb808
I have a variety of ways to analyse this:

0) Remember that social media and the press shows the best parts of people's
lives and rarely the crappy parts that everyone has.

1) You can't have it all. Often people sacrifice other parts of their lives to
achieve in one area. My old boss that got promoted to a very high position
never found a partner or children. Other tech friends who have earned a lot
have worked thier whole lives and never went backpacking around the world like
I did.

2) Some people have advantages. Eg Bill Gates was a millionaire before he even
started college, many famous people had privileged upbringings.

3) Some people are just lucky. Maybe they were in the right place in the right
time. I had a very wealthy friend who I never figured out why they spent so
much or how they could afford such a big house and expensive vacations. Later
I found out their father literally won the lottery, $50Mil - at the same time
her sister has severe deformities from birth. Which brings to

4) Money and "Success" doesn't equal happiness. My wealthy friend would easily
give it up to have a healthy happy sister. Taleb talks a lot about how suburbs
filled with huge multi-million dollar houses are filled with bored lonely
people.

5) You're probably much wealthier and have a better life than most people
already. Remember >2Billion people don't have clean tap water they can drink.
People are risking their lives so they can come to the US or Europe to work in
construction or cook your meals in a restaurant.

~~~
Viliam1234
> 0) Remember that social media and the press shows the best parts of people's
> lives and rarely the crappy parts that everyone has.

When I take a picture on camera, I sometimes realize that a person looking at
the picture will probably imagine something much better than reality.

For example, an entire day spent with my kids who try to be as annoying as
possible; then for five minutes they act cute, and I make a nice photo. A
person looking at the photo will probably imagine that the whole day was fun.
Or we take a trip somewhere, take a nice photo in front of a local historical
building, then the kids get really annoying and we have to cancel the trip and
go home. Again, a person looking at the photo will probably be impressed by
what kind of trips we can make with the kids.

So when I look at someone else's photo, I can do the reverse reasoning. The
smiling guy on the photo? Maybe the whole day was actually quite bad, and he
only had 5 minutes of fun. A photo taken on a ship? Seems nice, but maybe the
trip was slow and boring, and the weather mostly bad. An attractive girl next
to him? Maybe he spent five minutes talking with her, and the rest of the day
traveling or siting at various meetings. Or maybe not; the point is that the
nicest possible scenario is only one of the possibilities.

~~~
gen220
Have you read Knausgaard, by chance? Something about your writing evoked him
for me in a good way.

It's sort of off-topic, but reading his books in my early 20s was a huge
revelation for me; something like "Oh, it actually doesn't get much 'easier'
when you grow up. You still deal with things as they arise, and continue to
sort of meander your way between the present moment and nostalgia, between joy
and pain."

In a way, it was rather calming to know that "Adults" with "Kids" are just Us
with 5-10 more years of good and bad decisions. Relaxing to know that we
wouldn't suddenly be expected to miraculously do everything correctly. :)

It had made me more aware of the fakeness you describe, but it also compels me
to marvel at those older people I meet who have consistently invested in their
life’s garden: pruning and fertilizing, sowing and reaping, apparently against
our natural inclinations to let it all grow wild.

------
klenwell
I'm reminded of an apocryphal story I read somewhere about an exchange between
Kurt Vonnegut and Joseph Heller that was supposed to have taken place at a
fancy party hosted by a successful hedge fund manager.

Google reveals various versions and sources of the exchange. Here's mine:

Vonnegut: Can you believe this guy? He makes more money in a single day than
we'll make in our entire lives. And you wrote Catch-22!

Heller: Sure, but I have something he'll never have.

Vonnegut: Yeah, Joe? What's that?

Heller: Enough.

~~~
DonHopkins
Conversely, there's a humble brag my grandfather loved to tell:

"I'm working on my second million!"

(pause for people to act impressed, while secretly loathing you)

"I gave up on my first."

~~~
billman
+1 for Vonnegut

------
asdfasgasdgasdg
I've yet to meet someone I would trade places with. If they're smarter than
me, maybe they make less money. If they're richer than me, and smarter, maybe
I don't care for their spouse. Or they're in bad physical shape, or they're
neurotic and difficult to be around. If all else fails, you can consider how
many people have it worse than you, and how, even if you had it worse, it
would still be ok.

 _Until a man is twenty-five, he still thinks, every so often, that under the
right circumstances he could be the baddest motherfucker in the world. If I
moved to a martial-arts monastery in China and studied real hard for ten
years. If my family was wiped out by Colombian drug dealers and I swore myself
to revenge. If I got a fatal disease, had one year to live, and devoted it to
wiping out street crime. If I just dropped out and devoted my life to being
bad._

 _Hiro used to feel this way, too, but then he ran into Raven. In a way, this
was liberating. He no longer has to worry about being the baddest motherfucker
in the world. The position is taken. ... Which is okay. Sometimes it 's all
right just to be a little bad. To know your limitations. Make do with what
you've got._

~~~
akhilcacharya
That’s an interesting thought that I’ve never personally had. I know dozens of
people whose lives I’d rather have.

~~~
knocte
Are you 100% sure? Maybe they have a downside that you wouldn't be willing to
accept.

------
dahart
You’re already halfway there by recognizing that mentally bringing someone
down is a waste of time, and that the only point is to feel better about
yourself.

Both being jealous and mentally knocking people down are pretty normal human
things to do. If you listen, you’ll notice lots of people say things out loud
that have the undertone of here’s why you’re not that great or here’s why I’m
better than you. Sometimes it’s subtle, sometimes it’s not.

The main thing I tend to think about is how I’m not in competition with anyone
but myself. I can improve, or not improve, and I can affect my own situation.
But either way, it doesn’t affect anyone else, and their lot doesn’t affect
me. It won’t help me make more money or get more attention if I bring someone
else down, nor will it prevent them from getting attention or money.

Another way to approach this is acknowledging that some people are actually
very talented, some people are very focused and work incredibly hard. You have
the option to drop the jealousy and join others in respecting someone’s
achievements. You can also study them, find out what they’re doing and how
they work in order to emulate the behaviors that got them where they are.

Another way to deal with this is meditation. If you study a little meditation,
one of the first things you learn is how to identify your talkative and often
negative inner voice, and then after you learn how to recognize it, you learn
to acknowledge it and let it go, in favor of a more peaceful and positive
inner monologue.

~~~
jugjug
I very much agree with this. This approach helped me a lot to turn jealousy
into being gratefully inspired by others. Every time a thought of jealousy
appears in my head, I make a concious effort to turn it into being grateful
that there’s a person who accomplished what I wish to accomplish and who can
inspire me or even teach/mentor me. Such first concious steps were a bit
strange, but after some time the automata in my head got replaced with a new
path and jealousy have virtually disappeared since then.

------
CalRobert
At the end of the day, it's just a fucking job. If you need the money I
understand the envy, and I've been there. But ultimately most of us are
working really hard to make other people rich. Being really good at that game
(and it's a pretty bitter game) isn't something to be envious of.

I have never seen a high paying job in tech that wasn't ALSO higher stress and
generally more hours. I'm sure exceptions exist, but as I've gotten to my mid
thirties I've noticed that those in my friend group who make the most are also
the most stressed. One of them is very, very good at CS. He works for a FAANG
and makes an excellent salary. And he's fucking depressed as hell. But he has
exactly the life I thought I wanted ten years ago.

I'm an OK programmer who has no commute, lives in the middle of nowhere crazy
cheap, and has almost no overhead. I work 8 hours a day. If I get paged on the
weekend (hey, it happens) I work commensurately fewer hours during the week. I
see my kid more than most dads I know. He's said (in not so many words) he
envies what I have.

There's always someone faster, slower, richer, poorer, healthier, and sicker
than you.

~~~
AndrewKemendo
My question to people with this attitude is, what is the point of your life?

I've lost a lot of friends and recognize that life is way too short to not be
putting as much time as possible toward something you find totally compelling.
The stock answer is contentment and "happiness."

The most content person I've ever met was a flower cart man in Belmopan,
Belize. Probably made $100 a week at most. He knew all he wanted to do was
bring beautiful flowers to people and give them a smile. He had a point in
life. Sure he had kids, but he knew that they would move on one day and do
their own thing, and he wanted to be known as the best flower man in Belize so
he got up early to start and worked late.

This pervasive idea that "it's just a fucking job" is ultimately a milquetoast
cop-out. Spend your hours doing something that has impact to you.

~~~
blub
Life doesn't have a point though, today maybe not even reproduction. We search
for meaning ourselves and find it in different things.

~~~
AndrewKemendo
Hence why I said you have to do what makes meaning for you.

~~~
elindbe2
But you seem to be suggesting that something has to come in the form of paid
employment. There's plenty of stuff I find meaning in, people just don't tend
to be willing to pay me for it.

------
CapmCrackaWaka
I have ~6 years of experience since graduating, so I can give you my
experience and what I am currently going through.

Two of us were hired as actuaries at the same time fresh out of college to
work in the same department. Immediately, it was clear that he was much more
competent, smarter, and and overall better employee than I was. The bosses
would consistently praise him, call him smart, etc etc while I got average
performance reviews. As someone coming out of college with a degree in
mathematics, where I was constantly called 'the smart one' in my friend group,
it was brutal. I was not mentally prepared to fall behind a peer like this in
such an obvious manner. When I wasn't sulking, I was angry. I was the smart
one, or so I had been told.

It took a change in perspective to get myself to a better place. I deleted
social media and stopped comparing myself to other people. I started
congratulating my coworker when he did well, because honestly, he deserves it.
His success does not have to be my failure, working at a company does not have
to be a zero-sum game.

Getting to this better place has helped me tremendously in my professional and
personal life. I am a very high performer now, have a great girlfriend, great
friends, a great job, everything I could ask for. I learned that it does not
pay to stress about being the best, because you will never be the best, and if
you are, you need to find a different company, friends, whatever.

------
ThrowawayR2
> _Does this happen to anyone else?_

This happens to pretty much everyone.

> _What do you do about it?_

Your options are:

Motivation: " _If I learn to do the things s /he does, I can be more
successful too._"

Rationalization: " _Well, if I had had the same opportunities s /he did, I'd
have been just as successful. I did the best I could with what I had. And at
least I'm still doing better than X, Y, and Z._"

Indifference: " _X is doing well? That 's nice. Wonder what I should have for
lunch today?_"

I find I gravitate more towards the bottom of the list as I get older.

~~~
toyg
Mine is more "X clearly loves doing Y - as much as I wish I did too, deep down
I know I really don't. What do I actually like to do? I'll have more of that,
thank you."

~~~
Ocerge
This is where I've landed as well. Earlier in my 20s I thought it was required
for me to work on side projects that I have zero real interest in just so that
I can keep up with my peers who were clearly better than me, when in reality I
despise the idea of working on anything software-related outside of work. This
limits me to being an above-average/good engineer rather than an exemplary
one, but I'm comfortable with that. It just takes some time for you to figure
out what you want out of your career.

------
PopeDotNinja
Host a couch surfer from [https://couchsurfing.org](https://couchsurfing.org),
especially one a less-than-rich country.

I hosted a person from poor country in my San Francisco apartment. They had
traveled here on a paid trip for a tech conference. They asked where they
could buy food for less than one dollar per meal. It turned out they only had
$6 to pay for their entire stay in San Francisco, including public transit
fair for a return to the airport (which costs almost $10). I don't stress
about finding money to pay for food or public transit, and occasionally being
the one who has more helps me balance out feelings envy when I see people who
have more than I do.

~~~
o-__-o
In other words, volunteering and helping the needy brings happiness to
everyone involved and sets up paths to success for all.

Keep some old shoes or take your restaurant leftovers with you to give to that
next homeless guy at the intersection

~~~
PopeDotNinja
If you like to be extra generous, buy them a new pair of shoes or a meal of
their choosing.

~~~
o-__-o
If you have the ability to do so, I agree. However those old pair of shoes in
your closet can be quickly dropped in your car for future reference

------
whiddershins
One way might be to split envy in to:

Covetousness Resentment Sadness (Maybe ambition?)

Covetousness is really, really, bad. It will eat your soul. It is the desire
to take what someone else has for yourself. “I want his car.” “I want his
girlfriend.”

Resentment can be useful for a short term, but will eat you and cause
bitterness if it festers. “I am not paid what I’m worth, I can get better
elsewhere.” Is a useful statement if it is accurate and you act on it. But if
you are lying to yourself or if you don’t act, it turns bad.

Sadness is a normal human emotion when things just aren’t how you hoped they
were.

Ambition is the (mostly healthy within limits) impetus to achieve more. “I
want a boyfriend who is nice the way his is.” “I want an even cooler car than
anyone I know.” As long as you remain healthy and within your ethical system,
ambition is good.

I think maybe taking a frustrating emotion like envy and reframing it with
component parts can help you approach it differently?

Just an idea.

~~~
JackFr
I think that’s a really useful breakdown. And I think it lets one attack the
problem in a way that’s productive and healthy. If you’re able to be honest
with yourself and admit that you are having very human feelings, by feelings
that are counter-productive and self-indulgent you’re more likely to be able
put on the brakes.

I know that I’m intellectually vain. It’s a personal foible and it can be very
unattractive, but I’m always concerned that everyone know how smart I am. But
I think being able to admit it, and acknowledging it is a fault, is the first
step towards controlling it.

------
lewiscollard
I am 36, my job title is a Lead Developer (I made it despite fucking up all of
my late teens and the entirety of my 20s), and I have been outclassed in some
respects by people in their 20s, and I am at peace with this.

You know there is some aspect of jealousy going on here, and being so self-
aware in that way is really important and you're half the way there already!
So any time you feel that you want to tear apart someone's ideas or someone's
code or whatever else, that might just be the jealousy talking. While there's
a lot to be said for being an old motherfucker (by tech standards) and lessons
that you can teach others, just always use that as a damper on yourself.

Perhaps a good antidote to that mindset is to refocus. Tell people what they
are doing right. Look for little moments of genius when you see them. Actively
look for things that are done right, and be sure to let the person in question
know what they did right! Building people up will make you feel good, and it
will definitely feel a lot better than professional jealousy.

I hope this is helpful in some way.

~~~
MassiveOwl
I'd be interested in your take on this as someone slightly older than the
cliched tech employee.

To be honest, i'm never usually that impressed with people that are in their
mid-20s and working as developers. They can typically produce good output, but
in my experience they are unable to state 'why' something works well. They're
following best practices laid down by people in their 40s/50s years ago. I
think they have the energy to not give up and trawl the forums till they get
the answer, not necessarily finding the answer by considering the principles
underlying the task

~~~
lewiscollard
Don't limit it to the younger developers: we're all doing that all the time!
Always have all our lives. We learn a lot of things by imitating, then
understanding, then building on that. I mean, I learned English from my mother
at a very young age (who was following the best practices of the 1950s)
without understanding any of the underlying principles. :)

Likewise, some of the "kids these days" (literally what I call the rest of my
much younger development team, and they're just as capable about poking me
about my age :)) may be doing that in tech in their early-ish careers. I think
it'd be underestimating younger devs to apply that too broadly, because I've
seen too many little gems of genius from younger devs.

The way I see my role leading a younger team is to help the folks somewhat
younger than me learn from some of the lessons I have learned: to spot code
that is going to be a nightmare in the long run, to maybe gain my weird knack
of being able to tell people what their bug is without even seeing the code.
But they also have a valuable role in teaching _me_ to be less conservative
(disposition, not politics) when I should not be, or coming up with brilliant
solutions that I was blind to.

If I had a point, it's that there's room in the world for all of us, and that
both the old motherfuckers and the Kids These Days have a lot to bring to the
table to build up each other. I hope this was useful in some way. :)

------
steven2012
Louis CK once said "The only time you should look at what's on some else's
plate of food is to check if they have enough." That really put things in
perspective to me.

If I'm not making enough for the amount of work that I do, I will find another
job.

~~~
bronco21016
That’s a cool quote. Do you remember where this was said? I would like to hear
the rest of the context. Thanks!

~~~
steven2012
It looks like it came from his Louis TV show:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNo_Hhm5r8o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNo_Hhm5r8o)

------
DantesKite
Whenever I feel envy (and I inevitably do) I try to to use it as a guide for
what I should work on.

I acknowledge I’m not as good as I could be. And I try to use it as fuel to
improve my own life.

I crucify myself with all that I lack in the hopes of a “transformation.”

In practice, that means setting some time aside in the day to read more,
workout more, practice more.

But I have to be careful. Sometimes envy can be deceitful. It’s easy to fall
for things I don’t actually want.

So I use envy as a guide, an approximate one, to reflect on what I lack and
what I can do to change it, if anything at all.

It’s my Elysian mirror.

------
mesarvagya
I know this will get lost in lots of comments. But the medicine to any problem
is * Mental Peace *.

Try following steps:

1\. Take a deep breath, let all your thoughts flow naturally.

2\. See what's happening with your thoughts as a second person's perspective.

3\. Know that you aren't your thoughts. It is you who can change any thought.

4\. Remind yourself that nothing last forever. Even if you had all the money
in world, it would still not be enough, and you won't take a dime after you
pass.

5\. Realize that you have limited time in this Earth. Do what you always
wanted.

6\. If in doubt, repeat this cycle.

~~~
2sk21
Number 5 especially. I've beem working towards financial independence to
enable this.

------
Silhouette
I work in software development in the UK. Even good, highly experienced
developers working for top employers over here rarely make what a total newbie
in their first job makes in a place like SV. In purely financial terms,
_almost every developer I know_ is in the position where much younger, much
less capable people are earning a lot more than them somewhere else.

The thing is, it doesn't matter. There are sports players in the world who
make more money in a week than most of those SV developers make in a year,
too. Maybe I could move to the US and make enough to pay off my entire
mortgage in a year or two. But I don't want to live and work in the US, so for
me personally, that opportunity isn't interesting or relevant.

What matters to me in terms of my professional career is making the most of
opportunities when I do want what they offer, and being content that my
professional development is OK and I'm doing good work that I enjoy. Obviously
better compensation is always welcome, but the reasons I'm glad I went
freelance and ultimately started my own businesses are mostly about increased
flexibility, diversity, and making my/our own decisions instead of being
subordinate to The Boss. You can't put a price on the improvements in quality
of life that come from a better work environment and better work/life balance.

------
achenatx
Learn to realize exactly where happiness comes from, which is ultimately the
people around you that you help or impact in a positive way. One of the
hardest things in life is to truly understand what you want - beyond the noise
from society, family, and friends.

Material possessions and success are fun, but ultimately only generate
fleeting happiness.

I have run my company for almost 20 years now and have seen _many_ of my
friends/acquaintances make 10 million+ in a much shorter time. Not that I dont
wish I could have more money for less effort (in the same way that I wish I
could play the guitar or speak multiple foreign languages). Yet Im very happy
with my life as I understand clearly what makes me happy and dont let my
happiness be defined by what someone else has done or has.

------
nipponese
As others have said, acceptance is a big first step. Next, consider that
jealousy comes from a scarcity mindset: There is only x wealth/success/power,
and this other person got it.

If you can transition yourself to an abundance mindset, I think you'll find
the success of your peers as a collective asset: as your field or group
becomes more credible/successful, more opportunities will open up for you. If
you can figure out how to use their success to your benefit, you maybe find
yourself thankful for them.

------
DrDimension
If you want something that someone else has got, ask them for it. More often
than not, they will give it to you.

If you find someone who is outpacing you, humble yourself for a damn minute
and try asking them what they are doing that makes them so effective, then see
if you can make it work for you.

If more engineers had this mindset, we'd all be better off.

~~~
idlewords
Could I please have three hundred thousand dollars?

~~~
closeparen
[https://www.ycombinator.com/apply/](https://www.ycombinator.com/apply/)

~~~
idlewords
The last time I did that it ended in drama.

~~~
pragmatic
I'd buy that book.

Seriously, please elaborate. Would love to read the story!

~~~
aptwebapps
This was the denouement:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11647165](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11647165)

------
Spooky23
Congrats, you’re human.

It’s easy to fall into the trap of being envious. Envy and greed turn into
resentment and anger. You need to nip it.

If you know the person, you know what’s a great way to handle this... Give the
guy a call or drop by and congratulate them on their good news.

And for yourself, grab a notebook, go sit at the library or wherever and write
down the things you want to do. Anything, this is for you. Write that you want
to be the president. Channel your inner Office Space and write that you want
to have a threesome. Or be the next Zuck. Or catch a fish. Whatever.

Then write down a high level plan of attack to achieve each thing. One thing
per page. Then write the list of things you really want to do.

In my personal experience, envy is usually more of a reflection of what I
failed to do or dream or plan vs what some other person achieved. Be secure in
who you are and what you want, and you will be better for it.

------
iandanforth
This comic has served as a reasonably effective innoculation against this
pattern for me.

[https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2014-11-02](https://www.smbc-
comics.com/comic/2014-11-02)

~~~
2sk21
This is perfectly apropos!

------
kuiro5
This quote from Naval Ravikant:

“You have to be that person. Do you want to be that person with all of their
reactions, their desires, their family, their happiness level, their outlook
on life, and their self image? If you’re not willing to do a whole sale, 24/7,
100% swap with who that person is, then there’s no point in being jealous.”

~~~
brankoB
I don't think that quote makes much sense. I can want a specific thing someone
has (e.g. praise for work done) without wanting /everything/ they have.

~~~
colordrops
I think his point is that typically the context of all the particular aspects
of that person's life feed into the reason why they have that one thing you
want.

~~~
elindbe2
Not necessarily. The fact that I brush my teeth in a certain way doesn't
determine the kind of car I drive or whether I love my wife.

------
hwartig
Jordan B. Peterson writes in “12 Rules for Life - an antidote to chaos” that
you should “compare yourself to who you were yesterday, not to who someone
else is today”

~~~
DonHopkins
The same Jordan B Peterson who asked "Is it possible that young women are so
outraged because they are craving infant contact in a society that makes that
very difficult?" -Jordan Peterson, infant craver

Who denies women have been systematically oppressed: "The idea that women were
oppressed throughout history is an appalling theory." -Jordan Peterson,
history understander

Who claims to be a champion free speech, yet has sued and threatened several
of his critics?

[https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jordan_Peterson](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jordan_Peterson)

>Peterson additionally threatened to file a defamation lawsuit against Kate
Manne, who accused him of misogyny in a critical book review of 12 Rules for
Life. [212] Following a negative book review of 12 Rules for Life in the New
York Times by Pankaj Mishra, Peterson called Mishra an "arrogant racist son of
a bitch" and threatened to "slap" Mishra should they ever meet in person.[213]

[212] [https://www.thecut.com/2018/09/jordan-peterson-threatened-
to...](https://www.thecut.com/2018/09/jordan-peterson-threatened-to-sue-
feminist-critic-kate-manne.html)

[213]
[https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/23/jordan...](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/23/jordan-
peterson-rage-self-help-guru-cathy-newman-twitter)

~~~
serf
>The same Jordan B Peterson who asked ...

sure. I'm no big fan, but don't color good advice bad when it comes from the
wrong person.

All his quote is advocating for is self-reference and relativity with regards
to self improvement.

It's sort of like quoting Mark Twain. 4/5 people will enjoy the quote, that
last person will bring up what a tyrannical bigoted racist he was. (opinion
theirs)

The reality is that people who aren't necessarily great themselves can bring
wisdom to our attention. Just because it was _THEM_ that had the idea, or at
least the ability to bring that idea to words, doesn't invalidate the idea.

~~~
DonHopkins
I didn't reject his advice -- just the opposite: I endorsed it. Notice that in
my reply to the question "Is that quote bad advice?", I gave him due credit
for his "excellent advice", and helpfully suggested he follow it himself.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20437177](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20437177)

I'm not even suggesting you "live your whole life without listening to" him --
just the opposite: I actually quoted his own words, and linked to more quotes
and information about him, in case some people hadn't already heard them.

And no, I don't envy him, nor do I want to be like him, nor do I even want to
physically assault him by slapping him, like he wants to slap Pankaj Mishra.

Maybe we should all take his other sagely timeless advice and "toughen up",
and not be as thin skinned and prone to unraveling and throwing tantrums as he
is, or threatening lawsuits and physical violence in response to legitimate
criticism, huh?

------
fao_
A friend of mine is a fair few years younger than me and is a much better
programmer than me. At first (maybe the first few months) I felt some small
measure of envy, but over time I decided to take the attitude of, what can I
learn from this person. If this person is outperforming me, what are they
doing different, maybe adopting that can help bridge the gap.

I learned a few really good things from this, like, said friend is completely
open about the things that he doesn't know. He doesn't hide or bluff his lack
of knowledge, he went 'so far' as to google something in front of me that he
didn't know. I realised this was a factor to some degree of attitude,
upbringing, and socialization. I adopted it and I honestly have learned much
more than I would have otherwise.

The other aspect of it is of course, I've taken a different career path than
him. We have different sets of knowledge (even though I think if he took the
time in about six months he could probably be up to my level in my path).

It's a manner of attitude, rather than anything else

------
csa
Acknowledging your feelings is a good first step.

The next step is to realize and accept that you can only impact things that
are within your sphere of influence. Focus 100% on those things, especially
the things that make you happy.

Note that you rarely know the full story behind someone else’s success. It may
have been luck, it may have been privilege, it may have been that they are
simply able to perform at a level that you are not capable of (at least not
yet). All of those things are OK — just focus on what you have influence over.

~~~
pndd90
sometimes ego suspension fixes the problem.

------
Bahamut
Consider a friend. Now imagine if the friend won a professional lottery of
some sorts - one example could be that the startup they slaved at had a huge
exit and their stock became worth a couple of million $.

How would you want to respond to the friend?

Personally, I would congratulate the friend on his/her success. I want good
things to happen to my friends. It doesn’t take away from my own successes, or
change anything about what is going on in my own life, so there is no value in
tearing people down.

Hopefully this perspective helps in reorienting one’s mindset.

------
alexashka
Just live your life. It goes away with life experience. By getting what you
want, you realize it's not what you really want.

By this process of slow elimination, your desires become far less about having
more things (envy aka someone is better is about them having more things), and
far more about having more time, to go for a walk, to play with your kids, to
read a book.

It's hard to be envious of someone going for a walk in the park :)

Western society has a masterful advertising and marketing machine that makes
most people feel inadequate about things that make no sense, like a car
somebody drives, or a suit they wear, or a number in their bank account?! As
if those things are worth missing a kids' birthday party for! They're only
worth anything because other sleepwalkers will give you props for them.
Comparing yourself to others goes away by the time you're 30 or 40 - you just
cease giving a shit, mostly due to being worn out and with that, advertising
no longer works on you, much.

Anyhoo, it goes away on its own as you get that girl, get that car, get that
job, and realize it's not it. What a hoot :)

------
allthecybers
As a late professional bloomer in corporate America/megacorp tech and someone
without a traditional CS education background I struggle with this a lot.

But in the moment of envy it comes down to what your personal goals are and if
you are reaching them. Personally, when I see others flying high I wonder how
many long hours and weekends they have put in for that 10-20% extra they might
be making. When others get more acclaim I wonder how long the glow of that
lasts until they are expected to raise the bar even more to outdo their last
accomplishment.

If your goals are acclaim and more money then it would be good to talk to the
high flyers and find out what their special sauce is. If your goals lie
elsewhere its okay to take a minute to be frustrated, but see how that
frustration could be used to fuel your own drive toward your goals. High-
flyers only have so many good years anyway until they are eclipsed by someone
younger, prettier, more skilled or dynamic.

Just for reference, I realized that I am not cut out to be a high flyer but
had specific compensation and work/life balance goals for myself.

~~~
bdowling
> that 10-20% extra

We’re talking about the difference between an engineer approaching forty at an
ordinary company earning a little over $100k versus someone ten years younger
at a FAANGMI earning $250k+. There are a lot of people in the former group who
would happily give up a few weekends and put up with more stress to be a part
of the latter group.

------
bane
Envy is like fear. Everybody has it.

Bravery isn't the absence of fear, it's doing a thing despite the fear. It's
overcoming your animal instincts using the power of your cognitive mind.

I don't know a word for handling envy that's the equivalent of bravery...maybe
"compersion"? Perhaps in the way one might be brave in the face of fear, one
may seek compersion in the face of jealousy.

------
Roritharr
I'm still deeply affected by this, although my life, having a son and a second
on the way, should have taught me better by now.

I didn't grow up very competitive, never played any sports, but I started
working very early so that's where I got most of my positive affirmation, so
that's one reason why I always put so much focus on the importance of my
professional success.

Another is that I grew up relatively poor and tell myself I've fought to
attain wealth and happiness at the same time for myself and my family, so
seeing someone else achieving these goals before me triggers me to see myself
as a failure, doubting and regretting decisions in my past, which is obviously
self-destructive and not a good way to live your life.

So far I've managed to use the emotions of envy to focus myself in times of
distress or immense pressure, but it's only a stopgap solution until I manage
to find contentment with my situation, however the outcome, the road to
stoicism can be quite long though.

------
anthony_doan
Pretty sure what you're describing is jealousy and not envy.

I was envious of my friends success and higher pay but I never wanted to deny
them or dream of their failure.

It did motivate me and was one of the reason why I quit my public sector job
for private sector.

I think everybody have different path and that learning to accept it is
maturity. The mindset of being better than them is terrible for me. I focus on
what they have that I lack and what can I improve upon. I also accept that I
wasn't as good as selling myself as some of my friends are especially coming
from an ESL background. But I've come to term with that and focus on building
my skill set that I lack and deem important to me.

The people that do better than me are something I use as a road map but I make
sure not to waste time day dreaming about being in their position or to over
think it. It's a waste of time because there are tons of other things I can be
doing right now (improving in many area of my life instead of day dreaming).

~~~
yakshaving_jgt
> Pretty sure what you're describing is jealousy and not envy.

Homer Simpson and I are both pretty sure it is indeed envy, not jealousy.

[https://youtu.be/Tmx1jpqv3RA](https://youtu.be/Tmx1jpqv3RA)

------
pezo1919
Happened to me as well.

But you have to realize there are so many things are going on you might not be
aware of eg. relations, background, even luck!

Instead, try to exploit your recognition of their success and ask/learn about
their story. That will help you a lot too.

When you think that way: they went through a path instead of you so you can
now explore their story and get their experience much faster.

And don't forget: when there are 10 competitors with virtually the same skills
and performance its still only one who wins the contest with the prize and
goes away with all the chicks. The others seem to be unsuccessful from a bird
view, but in reality there might be not much difference in value.

Realizing this made calm, I am totally ok with lottery. Everything is a
lottery a bit, except you really nail it: but that requires so much work I
won't ever be envy.

------
somberi
FWIW, Buddhism breaks down various mental afflictions, of which Greed is one.
Afflictions are pollutants to seeing things as they are, and it helps to allot
run-time bandwidth to spotting them and hopefully, discarding them.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleshas_(Buddhism)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleshas_\(Buddhism\))

Edited:

The above helps a person to manage their own Kleshas. But if it is the other
person's that is bothering you, then it helps to cultivate a mind of
acceptance (according to Buddhism, that is).

And to quote the Bard from Othello:

Who steals my purse steals trash;

’tis something, nothing;

’twas mine, ’tis his, and has been slave to thousands;

But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches
him, And makes me poor indeed.”

~~~
nurettin
If, in your adult life, following some sort of creed is a choice, what makes
your choice compelling? Why should a choice be so impactful that it controls
every aspect of your life? What convinces you so much that your creed alters
the way you think, removing the need for perceived success in any form or
shape? I just don't buy it.

------
tomiplaz
When it comes to that, I accept that I am a different person, a person with
different past, values and traits. I also like to think (mostly to make myself
feel a bit better) that such a person might not be experiencing many other
(valuable) things in life that I am or other people are. If that is not true
and that high level peer is having a great life outside of work as well, then
I simply admire them. If anything, that just shows me how good one can be; it
propels me to push harder at least a little bit more.

It all depends on one's state of mind. I've had times when it was difficult
for me to face such a fact, and times when I looked at it in a quite positive
way.

------
rblion
I always used to compare myself to 'self-made billionaires' 'world shapers'
'rockstars'. Now I am more interested in absorbing the best influences and
synthesizing everything into something beautiful and useful.

------
kazinator
> _When someone younger than me ..._

The first thing is, you have to forget the fallacy that it matters where
everyone is situated chronologically in human history.

Neither you, nor these ones you envy, will be as good as some _historic_
twenty-year-old who might be 200 if he were alive today. Or as good as some
twenty-year-old who won't be born for another fifty years hence.

People are mostly rewarded with money and acclaim by doing things that please
others: mainly others who are able to market and sell whatever it is. Money
doesn't just fall from the sky onto good engineering alone. For every dollar
those people make from their work, someone else gets ten.

------
sys_64738
I remember the guy two levels above me who was an intern when I was at my
previous level. So he was promoted 6 times to my single promotion. I also
remember being a manager and having somebody reporting to me but a decade
later I was reporting to them.

There's always somebody better than you but there's always somebody better
than the person that's better than you. Usually they're younger and smarter
but whatever.

I guess in the end I have a job as there's only so many people super smart who
are doing what they do. Eventually they need to hire low achievers like
myself.

------
mntmoss
You always have to set your own rubrics(self-critique, self-feedback) for
success, from the very beginning. Society will always try to impose some on
you, for big things(political platforms) and small(bringing the coolest
lunchbox to the schoolyard). But to find any peace the externals have to be
decoupled from your inner self, and aligned where it is pragmatically
convenient for you. The problem with externals is familiar - it's not just the
jealousy, it's the imposter syndrome if you start succeeding, the disinterest
in the details from friends and family, the stress of the rat race and the
fickleness of trends and fashions, with a whole array of concerns summed into
a dollar value. Those things get your emotions going in a negative place.

If you do your own self-critique well, you can build skills and explore topics
that nobody else is, and that's the kind of thing that translates to the
optics of surpising outlier success. But when you only subscribe to the same
feedback loops as the average, you get predictably average results - on
average. There will always be people that grasp a thing a little bit easier,
are a little bit more numb to the negatives, have better access to resources.
You don't want to assume that is you, because it most likely isn't.

And you have to pick and choose what things you will stay average at and what
things are going to be your in-depth focus, cause nobody has the time to do it
all.

------
Blackstone4
I would recommend reading Seven Habits of Highly Effective People who which I
derive the statements below.

If try to think about the world as a growing pie versus a fixed pie. In a
fixed pie world, everything is limited so there's only so much success, money,
jobs and accalades to go around. So when someone else does well, it's natural
to be jealous because they are taking part of the pie that could have been
yours and now there is less out there to fight over. It's scarcity mentality
and most people thing this way.

If one thinks about the world as a a growing pie, it means that there is
plenty to go around and it's possible to work closely with those who are
successful to create a bigger pie i.e. there is no longer need to compete but
to collaborate. This builds better relationships and generally a more
positive, healthy attitude internally as well as lower stress levels. This is
what is known as abundance mentality.

I do not know whether this stuff is scientifically proven but from what I
understand, this trait is far more prevelant in self-made millionaires. Having
made a move in a similar direction, I can report feeling better about myself
and having a better attitude.

Further to this, the book also suggests focusing on what you can control and
what you can do. So in this case, worrying about others success is a waste of
resources.

I found it helpful to spend less time on social media and Linkedin. This
helped me to reduce my jealously.

------
brooklyn_ashey
I think once someone has carved out a place for themselves, it seems like it’s
something to be attained, like it exists as a thing to envy or a “place”to be.
But you are only ever seeing a distinct part of a longer, more complex story,
the small part you envy. You see your own path more realistically—as the
longer story it actually is. You remember its aspirational beginnings and
mundane points along the way. It has its high and low points too.

It’s natural for everyone to want to be at a high point when they’re
struggling to get somewhere. And then when someone’s at a really high point,
it doesn’t necessarily feel that way to them. “Success” usually feels more
like success to its far off audience and often more like work to the person
supposedly “enjoying” it.

Focus on finding the joy/inspiration/thrill in what you are doing now. Because
it isn’t the wild success that will quell these feelings of envy. The envy is
more of a sign that you should be doing something you actually love doing! If
you were, you’d be thinking about your own stuff and what cool thing to do
with it next, instead of what someone else is accomplishing. If you can’t find
the joy in your current thing, then work on what you are truly compelled by.
If you are in that zone, you will never envy anyone else, because you will be
far too absorbed in doing what you deeply love doing.

------
rramadass
The Yoga-Sutras have a couple of nice aphorisms (from [http://www.sacred-
texts.com/hin/yogasutr.htm](http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/yogasutr.htm)) for
mind training;

"1.33. By cultivating friendliness towards happiness and compassion towards
misery, gladness towards virtue and indifference towards vice, the mind
becomes pure."

"2.33 When improper thoughts disturb the mind, there should be constant
pondering over the opposites."

------
ianai
I’ve gotten this many times from coworkers through the years. I’ve had people
target me at all costs. They would try to grow their careers at my expense. It
hurt and in the wrong company worked for them. But in the long arc of time it
only got them so far and they all left the company before me. But none of them
knew my resume and I ultimately moved to much better pastures.

You don’t know what those newer hires have on their resumes nor the conditions
under which they were hired. You’re also not likely to make any good
impressions for yourself by being identified as a threat or confrontational.
Good management doesn’t like that behavior (edit-outside of professions like
law, politics, sales/marketing, etc).

Read “Siddhartha“ by Hermann Hesse. Take a deliberate approach to managing
your emotions. Mediate. Remember that the world is bigger than one persons
seemingly great career - both yours and others careers.

Corporate America has all of this as negative side effects. How you react is
your choice. Maybe take the opportunity to reevaluate what you should be
learning or working towards to advance your own career. Look for things you
can add to your resume. Consider options that make this one particular
situation not your only source of money, professional respect and growth, or
so on.

------
Maro
1\. Thanks to the internet/social media, you will _always_ see people who more
successful than you are, sometimes a lot more successful. You need to get used
to it and learn to deal with it [1].

2\. It may be helpful to think that this is probably also true for the person
you're looking ahead to: she's also looking at somebody "ahead" of her. So,
even if you get there, not much will change, you'll just keep looking at
people ahead (also see "hedonic treadmill" [2]).

3\. A lot of the time you're just seeing PR, and they're in fact not ahead of
you. For example a recent trend is "winning startup competitions". I had
friends who went to these, kept winning them, they got futured in
newspapers... but then the product had no traction and they shut down quickly.
Don't confuse PR with the real thing. Social media can be misleading.

4\. In my experience, a lot of it is down to luck. For example, for our group,
if a friend gets a juicy job at a FAANG, it will feel like they're ahead. (And
they will be.) But having been at a FAANG and done interviews, believe me, a
lot of it is down to luck --- esp. when it comes to getting a juicy job. Same
is true for startups, I would say most of it is down to luck.

5\. Often, other than luck, there's really something the person has done to
get there; a lot of the times the major component is _hustle_. Ask yourself,
would you want to do that to get there? For example, some startup founders who
achieve initial success (Series A and later) end up working for their own
company for 10+ years. Would you want to work for the same company (even your
own) for that long? Eg. I had a startup, it failed, and since then I'm "just"
an employee, and I switch jobs every 2-3 years, and I'm loving it, because I
keep learning new things, meet new people, go to new countries, etc; right now
I wouldn't want to trade this to be a Series X co-founder having to explain to
my board why we're not growing like I said we would in the pitch deck (most
companies don't end up growing like they were "supposed to").

[1] unless you become the next M.Z. (unlikely), this will always be true.

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill)

------
halfjoking
I'm not envious of people like that - they are still corporate slaves, working
on other people's ideas, trading all their time for a little bit of extra
money. The praise/acclaim they are getting is so bosses/society can exploit
them better. The difference between $80k or $200k salary makes almost no
difference in quality of life. The $200k dev is often more stressed and not as
happy as they look on the outside. Most are keeping up a facade.

The only people I would feel envy towards are people who have both time and
money, and could do whatever they want (fuck you money).

Especially depressing is reading IndieHackers, because it seems like everyone
there just tests out some idea, then suddenly they're making $35k MRR. But
even those people I'm not envious. Most of the time I realize that their idea
wouldn't be something I'm passionate about, and even when it's a similar
product to mine it wouldn't be built how I would choose to build it. Even if I
was rich I would be building my projects - and that's what I enjoy, so the
journey is more important than the end result.

~~~
lotsofpulp
>The difference between $80k or $200k salary makes almost no difference in
quality of life.

I don’t see how this is true for any urban area, where $80k will not let you
save any significant amount whereas $200k will provide you a decent cushion in
case your incoming cash flow experiences turbulence. The peace of mind
resulting from this certainly improves quality of life, especially if you have
mouths to feed.

Also, at $200k you can save enough to start investing in equity, and make real
wealth gains as opposed to the pittance earned by way of wages for labor.

~~~
jkaplowitz
Hello from Montreal, where everything you said is true for either dollar
amount, even in Canadian dollars. And indeed, tech salaries in that range are
plenty available here. The low end of tech salaries is below $80k, but the
threshold where things start getting tight is also below $80k, so no problem.

(Of course $200k will allow faster growth of savings and investment or a more
luxurious lifestyle, but even $80k can work here for comfortable middle-class
living.)

~~~
lotsofpulp
I guess I should clarify that my perspective is from US urban areas, and the
single biggest risk people in the US face is having a health issue which
forces you to not be able to work, and deal with extremely high medical care
costs.

For me, comfortable middle class living does not just include the food/shelter
you need, but also protection from volatility such as changes in labor market,
your family members’ health, and ability to take leave from work. As the US
doesn’t provide any of this, you have to pay for it, in the form of savings
and investments for yourself.

The other component of it is that in my lifetime, the income/wealth gap has
grown and grown. Opportunities for your children decrease if you don’t stay
ahead of the curve, so this is also another risk to protect against by earning
enough to be able to live in the better school districts and provide your kids
with a better shot of income stability for their future.

------
mrbonner
As I get older I don’t often feel that I need to find the little things to
invalidate them. But, I have to admit that I still feel very reluctant when I
am asked to write good promotion feedbacks for them. In the back of my mind, I
always have this thought of “not good enough to deserve it”. Jealousy in no
doubt had destroyed a few of my good relationships with co-workers I called
friends.

------
e40
I saw this on reddit and liked it enough, I added it to a short list of things
I found on the internet that I liked:

> Comparison is the thief of joy.

So, don't compare.

~~~
badpun
This is great approach for hobbies (comparison with the pros can kill any joy
in ex. drawing), or if you're independently rich. Unfortunately, in a job you
ARE in a competition against other professionals in your field. If you're not
competent enough, you will simply not get hired. So, it absolutely makes sense
to compare - if only to find out that you're dangerously behind and maybe need
to up your game.

------
ForrestN
The other person is just a vehicle for existing shame/self loathing. If you
want to stop feeling this way I suggest trying therapy and confronting the
deeper sources of these feelings.

I and many other people do not ever seethe about the successes of others. I
don’t say that to self-aggrandize, but rather to counter some of the other
people here saying it’s normal or universal. It’s not.

------
beezle
There are two components here. The obvious one is the hurt ego which can lead
to the sentiments you mention. The less obvious is understanding that you can
only control your own destiny.

On the second, suggest trying to figure out what skill(s) the other person has
that enabled them to achieve that which you are surprised (it didn't just
happen by magic). Is it technical? Personal interaction? Networking? Then
consider if that may be something you can/should work to improve.

On the ego issue - There was a point in my life when I was a very angry
person, apt to bitterness and tirades. I strongly encourage reading a book or
two on chan/zen. You need not become a buddhist to benefit from their
philosophical teachings and you don't need to meditate every day. But I do
think you can become small 'e' enlightened and really improve how you view and
interact with others and the ups and downs of daily life.

------
mishftw
In the past, I would see peers and think of them and realize wow that's cool
they're doing X thing and I'm not. I used to think of how ambitious I used to
be and how I wasn't driven anymore.

I may get hate for this because the idea has been touted as a "miracle" by
many folks... but I used the framework from the philosophy of Stoicism to
approach this problem. At the end of the day, envy alone is a waste of my
time. I can't control the world around me but I can control the feelings and
perceptions and that in turn can lead to my actions.

I turned that envy into action. I turned to introspection and became very
self-aware about my skills, experiences, knowledge gaps, and yes sometimes the
privilege peers had that got them ahead of me (like rich family, inherent
network, nepotism, etc). By mapping that out, I was able to mirror and compare
myself to this ideal version of myself.

------
arcticbull
Truthfully building and maintaining relationships with those who are more
successful can always help you become more successful yourself. I've come to
realize many of the people I was "trying to keep up with" have different and
potentially complementary objectives in life. Learn from everyone especially
those more successful than you instead of trying to tear them down, frequently
a rising tide lifts many boats.

I did really well for myself early on (not as well as some, better than most)
and I realized it didn't make me happy intrinsically. As such, I've started
investing in myself, in relationships, and in figuring out what does make me
happy. It's great seeing my contemporaries do well. I've let go of a lot of
things and people who weren't making me happy lately and it's really nice,
actually.

Perspective matters, and in some ways, comes for us all in time.

------
awinder
I think this is pretty natural / universal. There’s a lot of “ways” to deal
with the emotions you’re feeling (“seethe”), for me the important inflection
point was realizing that what was driving that was internal conflict between
where I wanted to go & how I was going to get there. So looking more inward
and less outward was key, and filtering out all of that “noise” to focus on
tangibly making myself better was key.

Here’s where it gets more fun — that process made me realize that where I
“wanted to be” was not where I wanted to be. And this post was fun to read
because I reflected on how far off I am from when I felt the same way, and yet
I’ve achieved different successes than I had imagined, experienced different
failures than I had dreaded. It’s a wild ride; take time to reflect, work to
improve yourself and set goals, but balance it with enjoyment of the ride.

------
jessems
There's a lot of good responses in this thread already, but I would like to
add one more thing.

An emotion will generally be part of a chain of emotions and beliefs. Here's
how this example of envy could work out for me:

\- At the top we might feel angry.

\- One level below that we realize we feel angry because we feel envious of
someone

\- Below that we may realize that we feel envy because we feel insecure

\- We feel insecure because we fear not being good enough

\- We fear not being good enough because somewhere in our past we internalized
the lesson that unless we're good enough, we may not receive attention /
affection

\- Not receiving attention / affection is connected to fear, because as a
child, in our evolutionary past, not being protected by our caretakers could
result in our death

Ultimately, the envy is connected to a fear of not being loved and a fear of
death. And many other things are as well.

------
adonese
i had it with my roommate and my best friend, we are both software developers.
i think this had contributed the most to what we both are now. I confronted
him what that i had always felt jealous about him and that what motivated me
to work even harder just to reach him. He told he felt the same!

------
jacknews
Consider 'someone' to be one and the same as yourself.

And then you can celebrate 'your' successes, commiserate failures, lament
failings, while freeing the other you to improve.

More difficult if 'they're' arrogant and sneering perhaps, but that's a only a
challenge, to be faced head-on.

------
kamfc
Who was it that said "comparison" is the source of all evil? Everyone gets
caught up in it. What to do that works for me is to practice gratitude and
feel inspired from people ahead of me regardless of age. They might just end
up as a boss, friend, partner, lover, savior.

------
naikas
I think that the comments have covered pretty much everything to break the
problem into fundamentals. I would just like to add that: \- professional envy
is futile \- use the opportunity to step aside for a while, and think of a
another route to get ahead of the person you are jealous of

This way you would not just stop wasting time in constant comparison, but also
likely to find a constructive mechanism to beat your competition.

In my little career, whenever I found myself being jealous of others, I
thought harder to differentiate myself, isolate from comparison/competition,
and always learnt something new to get ahead.

In the end, I don't know if my own narrative of professional journey would
reach my milestones, but I am 100% sure that I wouldn't be too jealous.

------
stephsmithio
Thanks for posting this question and to those who answered with advice. This
is something I've been struggling with recently, despite others probably
facing the same envy when looking at my life.

I decided to compile some of my favourite learnings from this thread:

1) Jealousy comes from a scarcity mindset. Use this as awareness and fuel to
improve.

2) Never compare yourself to someone across a single domain. Things must be
analyzed in the context of their lives, including what they've chosen to give
up.

3) Outward success != happiness. This is particularly important in the age of
social media, when people post the best 10% of their lives. Consistent
happiness > sporadic highs.

4) Assess whether you'd actually want to _do_ what that person does, not just
be perceived as they are.

------
saluki
When I see someone more successful than me I do envy them, but I'm happy for
them. It's great to see people succeed and do well.

I always like seeing people succeed, use that envy to work harder and do
better. Set a goal they have reached and go for it.

Be careful spending your time lamenting them and looking for holes in their
success. Don't waste your time like this.

You should check out this book Zen Shorts, it's for kids but has some great
lessons.

Here's a quick summary . . .

“The heavy load”, story goes….

Two traveling monks reached a town where there was a young woman waiting to
step out of her sedan chair. The rains had made deep puddles and she couldn’t
step across without spoiling her silken robes. She stood there, looking very
cross and impatient. She was scolding her attendants. They had nowhere to
place the packages they held for her, so they couldn’t help her across the
puddle.

The younger monk noticed the woman, said nothing, and walked by. The older
monk quickly picked her up and put her on his back, transported her across the
water, and put her down on the other side. She didn’t thank the older monk,
she just shoved him out of the way and departed.

As they continued on their way, the young monk was brooding and preoccupied.
After several hours, unable to hold his silence, he spoke out. “That woman
back there was very selfish and rude, but you picked her up on your back and
carried her! Then she didn’t even thank you!”

“I set the woman down hours ago,” the older monk replied. “Why are you still
carrying her?”

Now the question goes to you all, “Do you think you have carried it long
enough?”

Do keep in mind, a big part of success is your network and luck, so that plays
a part. But we can always improve, strive to do better.

So be happy for them and congratulate them unless of course this person is
just a daft p--- about their success.

Then I just tell them.

Hey, Good For You.

GFY!

------
DoreenMichele
In most cases, you probably have no real idea what is involved in their so-
called success.

Sometimes it's mostly hype and hot air. Theranos was valued at $10 billion. It
dropped to basically zero overnight. Now the founder is set to be prosecuted
on criminal charges.

Other times, sure, their success is real -- and comes at the cost of divorce,
chronic drug use to manage consequent health issues etc. Rich and famous
people are sometimes privately pretty miserable. We sometimes get insight into
their personal misery during headline making personal drama, like bankruptcy,
ugly divorces or death due to drug overdose.

I like to say "Sometimes, the grass is greener because of all the crap."

~~~
akhilcacharya
...but at the same time it’s because those people are the real deal. Most
people I know are in the latter camp.

Yeah, they can run marathons and got into a DL team at Google and got 2350s on
their SATs and made a million in crypto, what of it? I’m very skeptical that
the people better than me aren’t better than me for a darn good reason.

~~~
DoreenMichele
In eighth grade, I got in trouble for trying to explain to another student how
a letter-substitution puzzle worked at all. It was for extra credit.

The other student was Hispanic and spoke English as a second language. He had
no idea where to even start. He didn't even know what it was.

My dad did the Cryptoquote in the newspaper every single morning. I knew
exactly how this worked.

I was one of the "smart" kids at school, but my ability to solve this puzzle
had little or nothing to do with innate intelligence. I just had seen such
puzzles many, many times and helped my dad when he got stuck because he didn't
like failing to solve it. So if he couldn't do it on his own, he began asking
family members to look at it.

Meanwhile, I never have really become fluent in a second language like the
Hispanic student I was trying to assist because it struck me as unfair that he
had zero hope of solving this puzzle through no fault of his own.

But he was a poor immigrant of the wrong ethnicity. The school system and
world around him placed no value on the extra knowledge he had due to who his
dad was. Instead, it placed value on what I knew because of who my dad was,
somewhat randomly and arbitrarily, not because there are careers to be of
solving puzzles in the daily paper and not because being bilingual is useless.

There is so much luck, happenstance, born into the right family, right-place-
and-right-time involved in "success" that I just can't be arsed to invest a
lot of emotional heat in looking at other people and wishing I had their
stuff.

I've worked hard at making my private life work. I think if I ever have
"success," it will be sustainable and not destroy me/my life. In contrast,
many people with public success got it by making crippling personal
sacrifices. In some cases, it literally kills them.

I'll pass on that. It's simply not anything I want.

------
raynr
Maybe a perspective change.

The possibility of ever being envious of people who are objectively
better/faster/etc than me is absolutely alien to me. They're better than me in
my chosen profession, end of story.

Sometimes you're behind because that's just life being what it is, or you
missed an opportunity out of bad luck. Meh, can't be mad about that.

In a number of cases, I've seen people who aren't up to par get ahead, but
those are few and far in between, and not worth worrying about.

The biggest problem is people get ahead through "unethical" means. This
bothers me. If this is what bothers you, I sorry, I don't know how to help
you. I too would like advice.

------
tuesdayrain
I experience 0 professional envy. If I see someone who happens to be younger
and more successful, it only inspires me. It makes me me want to be friends
with that person so that maybe the qualities that made them succeed will rub
off on me.

~~~
akhilcacharya
Unfortunately this is only possible if you subscribe to a more tabula rasa
viewpoint than most.

------
sailfast
There are too many things you do not know about how a person got there to make
an adequate comparison to yourself and your situation. Be joyful for them.

You made different choices. You valued different things at different times. If
you optimized everything to get the job you maybe would have the job - but you
didn’t, because it’s a job and there is more to life than that.

What you see in their title / newspapers / on social media is not their life.
The acclaim / praise is not their life. It does not guarantee happiness /
success. It does not make you worse or lesser.

May the envy / anger be fleeting. It’s human, it’s allowed, but in the end,
useless and harmful.

------
winchling
I don't get this problem much any more, despite the fact that I have achieved
little worldly success to date.

I'd say the key thing is that you've _noticed_ the envy, which means that it
can't control you -- not all the time.

Keep paying attention.

------
badatshipping
You realize Vitalik Buterin invented Ethereum when he was 19? The guys who did
the Manhattan Project were disgustingly young. Newton invented calculus when
he was 21. Hell, Nas released _Illmatic_ when he was 21.

The world has a few winners and lots of losers. Like me, you’re probably a
loser. This is just part of the tragicomedy of life. For most of history
people were born farmers and died farmers.

The best thing you can do is to focus on being better than yourself yesterday.

Also, envy isn’t a bad thing. If someone has something you don’t, do you want
that thing? If yes, envy motivates you to try harder. If no, who cares?

~~~
kamaal
>>For most of history people were born farmers and died farmers.

Individual suffering is one thing.

But for most of history, and for most of history to come. Every one is
anonymous.

Read Ozymandias. No one really knows Julius Ceasar. No one.

Which is why fame almost always useless, from an historical perspective.
Having a name(famous) means nothing.

------
tathougies
Ask yourself why you care about someone else's life in such great detail?

------
microtherion
"One thing my pops always told me is you never count another man’s money" ——
Steph Curry

Now, granted, he was already really well paid when he said this, but he had
only the 4th highest salary on his team at the time.

------
davesmith1983
I was top of my class when I was at school at almost everything (except for
things like French, Religious Education and things I didn't care about much).
I was top of every class at Sixth Form (16-18).

I went to Uni and there were people that were smarter than me by quite a bit.
It is just something you gotta accept and be okay with it.

I am lucky enough to be smarter than the vast majority of the population, and
I make more money and I have opportunities that most people don't have

When I saw real poverty it was a reality check and I've calmed down since.

------
vikramkr
If they're my direct peers and colleagues, and they're not assholes, I think
it's better for me if people around me are successful as well. I remind myself
that I'd rather not be the smartest person in the room so that way I'm always
driven to do better. And I can learn from people around me. I have to
consciously remind myself of that, but after a while that perspective becomes
instinctual- make them part of your "tribe" and you'll switch to wanting your
tribe to succeed.

------
jressey
I remember when I was a kid riding in my car with my mom. I would pretend we
were racing other cars. It was a completely meaningless endeavor, of course.

It was great, because any car behind us was losing, and every car that passed
us, in my mind, decided they no longer wanted to race. Therefore mom and I
were always winning.

I am a petty person, and this approach helps to this day. When someone
surpasses me, I think about what's important to me, and then say "oh, that
person is playing a different game with different goals."

------
maxaf
The smooth talkers are usually poor doers. My experience with such people says
that those who are good at PR are rarely deep experts and cannot be counted on
to participate productively in a commercial enterprise. Don’t waste your time
on these people: they’ve chosen an easier path, one built on social skills
rather than solid technical expertise. There’s no shame in focusing on your
work and on sharpening your own skill set. After all, that’s what makes you
successful in your work. All else is extraneous.

------
rosser
Anyone who's anything-er than you can be your teacher in that thing, if you
approach them that way — even if only in your own mind.

If you bring envy to your interactions with these people, the things you'll
tend to notice are those that trip envy. If you engage with them as people
from whom you can learn something, the things you'll more often observe are
just that: things you could learn. They may even be the _very same thing_ ;
the intent you bring can color your experience of them that deeply.

------
mrdependable
I try to not set goals that are about me personally, but more about what I
want to create. How can I make myself as useful as possible, shape the future
as much as possible, connect with as many people as possible, etc.

I still get just as envious as anyone else, especially when times are tough,
but thinking outwardly helps get me re-aligned. I've already got everything I
need, having more money would just mean living a more comfortable life which
is something you get used to and stop appreciating pretty quick.

------
throwaway713
I don't envy other people; someone is always going to make a higher salary. I
_do_ however want a high enough salary (or a successful enough side project)
to permanently buy my freedom in terms of time; i.e., financial freedom.

There's many things I would rather be doing with 8-9 hours a day: AI research,
cancer research, volunteer work. I also think my greatest achievements in life
have all occurred when I wasn't under pressure, which is difficult when you
have a full time job.

------
raincom
Being envy is natural, but don't transform that into enmity/hatred towards
that person, as that can ruin you. As you get older, you also become 'wiser'
in dealing such situations. In younger days, you can compete with any one,
since you have years ahead to train yourself. As you get older, you won't have
much time, just maintain a cordial relationship as long as your younger
colleague is not harming you to the extent that it can lead to PIP, etc.

------
gh89485656
I don't have statistics on this, but I would guess 99% of all jobs in the
world, succeeding above and beyond reproach is not (should not be) an enviable
goal in life. Really I think the goal should be to find people / environment
that works well for you and embrace it, otherwise move on.

But if you do decide to make it a goal then work toward accomplishing it.

It sounds to me like you're wandering aimlessly in life to have decided your
goals are to try to find ways to be counter-productive.

------
dredmorbius
If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain or bitter, for always
there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.

Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own
career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of
time.

[https://www.desiderata.com/desiderata.html](https://www.desiderata.com/desiderata.html)

(Often more aspirational than practiced. I include myself in this.)

------
dusted
I don't think that's happened.. Now, you're not saying WHY they make more
money/get more acclaim/praise, but assuming it's justified, I look up to them
and respect them. I don't strive to become like them, I'm me, and they're
them. Now, people who's getting credit for something they didn't do, or that I
did, that's another matter, but then I guess it no longer qualifies as envy.

------
gorbachev
Take a deep breath, and a moment to realize that you still make n times more
money than the average person and are better off than, hmm, 90% of the average
people.

------
ryanmercer
>Does this happen to anyone else?

I'm 34 with a GED barely making 34k a year... I can't open reddit or HN
without being envious of most of the people posting.

------
ISL
Munger and Buffett have long addressed envy with a response like the
following:

"The idea of caring that someone is making money faster [than you are] is one
of the deadly sins. Envy is a really stupid sin because it’s the only one you
could never possibly have any fun at. There’s a lot of pain and no fun. Why
would you want to get on that trolley?"

I have found that perspective to be helpful. There's no upside for anyone.

------
unnouinceput
Usually I am the object of envy from others (family, friends, acquaintance,
neighbors). As a freelancer whom can afford to spend a lot of time doing fun
stuff and travel with my family, they always ask me how much money I make. I
just explain I am a freelancer and I do stuff on internet, but I never
disclose my real income.

One time I met an old friend whom I lost touch, we were in the beginning of
2000's simple programmers at a firm and after that each departed on our ways.
So I met him in a plane, me with my family, him alone. Started talking and
whatever each has done meanwhile. So he tells me he is the big boss of an
international firm, has a very good salary and stuff, planes tickets are
bought by the company, car with driver awaiting to drive where he wants, the
whole package of a man who did it in life. So I ask him, how much you get paid
USD/h? He tells me his monthly salary, which is quite big for our country and
we start the math. On one side is the total annual salary + bonuses + covered
expenses + medical insurance, etc etc. On the other side number of hours he
works/wastes for the firm. We come to an agreement he is paid ~20 euros/hour.
Then I drop the bomb "you know, I have plenty of clients who I simple refuse
their projects because I don't have time for them, will you consider come
working for me and help me with those projects? I will pay you double, 40
euros/hour for beginning and later we can raise to 50 after you get back in
business with programming skills?"...his jaw dropped.

~~~
ccou
I'm sorry but I fail to understand how this post was in any way helpful.

Can you explain what it was here that you thought would help OP in helping him
deal with his problems?

~~~
unnouinceput
By providing him with an advice on dealing with the opposite side of the coin.
Unless you're unable to comprehend how this world work, everybody's gonna
figure it out sooner or later in life how to be successful. So the OP will be
at one time in the future object of envy as well.

------
segmondy
Doesn't happen to me, because no matter how good other's have it, there's a
large amount of others that have it worse. If you're not happy about your
condition, do something about it. Want more money? Go make it, want more
acclaim? Go get it. If you want it bad enough and are willing to put in the
time and effort, you will get it.

------
austincheney
I don’t know if _envy_ is the correct word, but I do find it frustrating when
people are rewarded for making harmful decisions or playing office politics
over producing quality output. It’s not so much that I am jealous of their
success but that their harms are now enshrined in the organization and
everybody else will ultimately pay for it.

------
fwouts
I'd recommend reading "The Laws of Human Nature" by Robert Greene. It talks
about this.

My interpretation from the book: it's a perfectly natural feeling, but it
doesn't mean you have to act on negative destructive instincts. There are ways
to channel this energy into more productive behaviours (e.g. by using it to
challenge yourself).

------
naveen99
If you are ok with older people being more successful and value their
mentorship, just think you identified another potential mentor ahead of their
time in age. Start learning from them now... would you be jealous of Einstein
if he came back reincarnated younger than you ? Or would you cherish the
chance to get to know him ?

------
champagnepapi
hmm personally I haven't really felt this way since high school (I'm 26 right
now working as a SWE in NYC). I think you're at a great point because you have
the ability to turn that envy into something productive. Perhaps it's learning
a new skill that you can apply on the job, that will get you paid more. Trying
to invalidate someone is counter productive, because chances are it will not
make you anymore successful/happy. Furthermore, it is taking away time from
activities that will certainly make you successful and happy. So with that
said, as the Nike commercials state, "Just Do It". Start something that you
know will make you happy and successful in your path. When you get bored,
tried, lazy, unmotivated of "just doing it" think about that envy, use it to
continue forward. Make others want to be envious of you!

------
savrajsingh
The best solution is to just compete with your previous self and be thankful
for what you have. Easier said than done!

------
david_shaw
It can be helpful to reframe your envy as simply being happy for others.

Other than specific edge cases (for example, competing with a colleague for a
promotion), success is not mutually exclusive.

You can be happy for your peers when they do well -- their performance doesn't
mean that you can't succeed, too.

------
Nasrudith
I haven't had that issue much but one thing to try to do instead is try to
observe them learn from them and their failues and successes. Even if you
could never directly match them you could assuge yourself by continuing to
learn, grow, and avoid their pitfalls.

------
ldargin
Make an effort to determine exactly WHY you feel envy. It might be a signal
that something is wrong. It's easy to feel envious about pay if you're
struggling with debt. Easy to feel envious about acclaim/praise when your
skills are not current.

------
rocky1138
No, this doesn't happen to me. When someone younger gets accolades, I
celebrate. If I can, I try to learn a technique from them that might have
helped them get their success, but it's not always possible to isolate for
just one thing.

------
Sutanreyu
You've got some internal, "spiritual" things you've got to sort out then. Be
happy for them, learn from them, emulate what your identity allows. Otherwise,
forget about it. You're not going to grow from envying people.

------
cvs268
Whenever you feel envious, remember that your world need NOT be a zero-sum
game.

If you find yourself envious, instead focus on enlarging ur world to escape
the zero-sum mentality. Try thinking beyond the limitations you perceive
yourself in currently.

------
Waterluvian
He probably borrowed this from the Bible, but despite Louis CK being toxic, I
still hear him saying, "never look in someone else's bowl to see if they have
more than you. Only look to make sure they have enough."

------
werber
Doing well is the best revenge. When you find yourself seething take ten
minutes and do some career development, pick something to study that you're
weak in and funnel that non productive time into your future success

~~~
bdowling
Even better, have someone else tell you your weaknesses because you probably
don’t notice them the way that others do.

------
ksaj
I recently was working with a quantum startup where the founder was so jealous
of me he came up with a new lie about his history and accomplishments multiple
times a day. It was endless, and nearly nothing he said had any basis in
reality.

I totally gave up on him when his lies became so audacious he got _mad_ at me
twice for casually dismissing his claims of being the real Satoshi and that
Rigetti totally stole his ideas, forcing him to play catch up. He managed to
get in a story about strangling a person to death and the Canadian Armed
Forces covering it up because it was a "ptsd-related blackout," and that the
RCMP would put out a kill order if anyone without top secret clearance entered
his _commercial_ "lab".

Why he couldn't figure out why I was so disinterested in these stories is
beyond me... I think he was just looking for a buddy with similar professional
interests that he could brag to, and couldn't figure out how to keep me
interested in his otherwise woefully lacking / plagiarized code base that
didn't do nearly half of what he claimed it did.

Originally I was trying to help him get his head on straight, but within a day
of his total meltdown at my expense, I was over that, and have zero sympathy
for what his investors are soon to learn.

Ironically, in all his fantasy wisdom and military-strength security, even
after supposedly having his ideas stolen from him, he never got me to sign a
non-disclosure agreement, even when I brought it up multiple times with both
him and his primary investor.

It really looks like self-sabotage to me. Baffling.

~~~
cj
Sometimes the best thing to do in that kind of a situation is to let the
person "win" the conversation every so often.

~~~
ksaj
Most of the time I just nodded along and mmhmm until he lost steam. It's hard
to fake interest throughout a full on barrage of crazy.

I went along with everything until I discovered nearly his entire code base
was copied from other people's git repos and the one thing that seemed to have
a little genuine code wasn't capable of meeting his claims. Then he pretended
it as "obfuscated" and as a hacker, I should see through it. The problem is,I
totally saw through it.

Maybe he was hoping I'd turn his imaginations into real things. I really
couldn't tell.

His behaviour was so bizarre, I was concerned he could explode spectacularly.
Not worth the time and effort to calm his jealousy and internal rage.

------
farzankh
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIC9FQpxVwQ&feature=youtu.be...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIC9FQpxVwQ&feature=youtu.be&t=1828)

------
softwaredoug
Support them. Amplify them. Connect them with opportunities. Don’t make it
about your ego, there’s plenty of work to go around for well meaning hard
working people! A rising tide raises all boats

------
idlewords
Poorly.

~~~
aaronkaplan
Wow. Is no one spared?

~~~
idlewords
Envy is scale-free.

------
jeffinpdx
You just have to realize that somewhere out there is someone who is hating on
you too. We're all the envy of someone else. It gives you perspective that
will help you transcend the envy.

------
the_arun
Humans always think we are in a race track competing with others. Imagine I'm
running alone and I get to decide the speed & destination. Sounds
philosophical, but always helped me.

------
HNLurker2
Reminds me of this book called "Designing your life" it's about career, here's
what you do. Talk to people in field by buying them a coffee and you spit in
it

------
sethammons
"Comparison Is the Thief of Joy" \-- Theodore Roosevelt

------
Nextgrid
Don't feel bitter towards them. Instead, ask them about how they achieved
their success - most people will be happy to share. Take that feedback onboard
and improve.

------
crispinb
I have to say I've never suffered from it.

The only people I ever envy are those who don't have to work, and by the
nature of that fact, I don't work with them.

------
tw1010
What's wrong with internally putting an asterisk on their success and moving
forward with your life, maintaining diluted self confidence?

~~~
DantesKite
I think in that case, people might be placing a limit on who they could
become.

------
walru
This is awful. I didn't know people felt or did things like this rather than
focus on the level and quality of their own work.

~~~
abledon
Are you a patron saint or something?

~~~
walru
Talent isn't a zero sum game.

------
JohnBooty
Wound up parting ways with the company.

Because _NOBODY_ else there was ever going to have the opportunity to be a
"high-flying" developer.

Basically, there were a few engineers that had gained the trust of upper
management. The "chosen few" engineers were talented, though not spectacularly
so, and had also saddled the company with their share of mistakes and lots of
technical debt.

This created a cycle where:

1\. The "chosen few" developers got _all_ of the greenfield(-ish) development
work -- the only work at the company where it was really possible to move
quickly, hit deadlines, and "wow" people

2\. The "chosen few" developers got to make nearly all of the technical
decisions, and if you weren't one of them you were stuck forever implementing
somebody else's idea of a good solution

3\. The "chosen few" developers were always solving challenging issues, which
made them look impressive to management, who lacked the technical ability to
understand that a lot of these issues were actually caused by the "chosen
few"'s poor decisions in the first place.

4\. The "other" developers were always plodding waist-deep through technical
debt, much of it caused by the "chosen few."

I was there for only four years but eventually it became clear that there was
literally no way for me to shine there. You can't shine when doing maintenance
work on legacy nightmare code. I became jealous of the "chosen few" (or,
perhaps more accurately, I grew resentful of management) and grew a bit bitter
and burned out. My work suffered and I was eventually let go.

That was one year ago.

Now I'm making 25% more money at a different company where I'm 100% more
productive and 100% happier. =)

    
    
         When someone younger than me, in my field, is making more money 
         / getting more acclaim / winning praise from people I respect, 
         it makes me seethe. Sometimes I even waste my time looking for 
         a way to invalidate them, to put an asterisk* on their success, 
         so I can feel better about myself.
    

I think a key question is, "Are you jealous because they're more talented than
you? Or are you jealous because they have been given opportunities that you
have unfairly been denied?"

If you are jealous because they are more talented than you, then YOU are the
problem. Get better, find something you're the best at, or (perhaps most
healthily) accept the fact that you can be a perfectly valuable human being
without being the best at something.

If you are jealous because you're not given a fair chance, then THE COMPANY is
the problem.

------
WalterBright
Actually, it's good to work with people better than your are. I find it
motivating to learn from them and do my best work.

------
andrewstuart
Perhaps your parents valued and validated your siblings, and you felt they did
not value and validate you?

------
tarr11
This is the theme of Breaking Bad. :)

------
kumi_da
To a new programmer like me starting my career the comment section in here is
an eyeopener.

------
coconut_crab
There are people I know who are making two to five times more than I,
including those whom I have personally mentored. The reason is that they do
job hopping more than I do (been working in this position for 5 years) and the
startups boom in my country has increased the salary greatly[1].

On one hand, more money means more financial freedom. But on the other hand it
comes with several drawbacks: 966 style working hours, instability etc... so I
am contend with staying here because at least I can create values by my own
paces, at least for now.

tl;dr: be happy with what you can create

[1] 1500$/month is the household income needed to get into top 1% here, and
that's also above average salary of one 'senior' developer.

------
totaldude87
i think it all goes back "How much is enough", IMHO, the persons who figured
answers for that are the ones to envy ;)

------
johnwheeler
you are not your fucking job. --tyler durden

------
mikekchar
Success, praise and even salary are not a zero sum game. You will never have a
job where they say, "You're such a good employee, we'll give you _all_ of the
money". You get a portion and that portion is really negotiable. It's the same
with praise. If you do something amazing then people will probably notice,
even if someone else is also doing something amazing. If you are on a baseball
team and your rival hits 100 home runs in a season, they will rightly be
praised. If you also hit 100 home runs in a season, you will also be praised.

However, sometimes you'll think, "What I did is better than them, but I don't
get paid as much or receive as much praise". This is difficult to deal with.
First you have to consider: _why_ are their results paying off more than
yours?

To be clear, even if motivated by jealousy, you should think about this.
Jealousy is your mind's way of telling you that it is unhappy about some
perceived lack of "fairness". If you ignore it, you mind is going to find some
other way to make you deal with the problem. You don't want it doing that.
Deal with the feelings as soon as you can!

The first possibility you should consider: Maybe you are wrong. Maybe what
they did was actually better than what you did. If you don't think so, then
try to duplicate it. If you think that it's really out of whack, then you
should be able to do it. You can even tell people, "I thought what X did was
really interesting and I want to see if I can do it too". If you succeed in
doing it, then it will be interesting to see if you get the same results. If
you do not succeed, you can learn about yourself.

Sometimes you misunderstand the challenge. For example, let's say a rival
wrote a popular open source library and not only does everybody in the company
use it, but it's super popular outside the company. You look at the library
and think, "That's actually a piece of crap. I could do better". And you do!
But it get's ignored -- not just by your company, but everywhere in the world.
It is easy to overlook that the skill in making a reuse library is not in
writing the library. It's in getting people to actually reuse the code in it!

Sometimes it's really the case that some people get rewarded more than they
should. Sometimes it's because they are friends/relatives of the people in
power. However, sometimes it's because their attitude just aligns better with
the people in power.

I once had a really bad manager. I went to my year end review with a huge list
of accomplishments. My manager said, "Ordinarily if I had someone with this
list of accomplishments I would give them a good review. However, I just don't
like you". Of course I quit. I probably should have sued the company for
constructive dismissal, but when I thought hard about it I realised that my
terribly manager had given me a good gift.

What was undeniable was that I had made my horrific manager's life miserable.
Every time they made a terrible mistake, I _told_ them about the mistake
(Oh... it happened a lot, let me tell you). When they denied it, I waited
until I had proof and then came back and showed them that it _really was_
their cock up that made everything go pear shaped. Of _course_ he hated me. I
would have too :-). I was trying (in my own way) to help, but really I just
drove the poor guy into a well of imposter syndrome and poured daily despair
on his head. I didn't help him _at all_ because I didn't help him in the way
he needed to be helped.

I've found that this last thing really is the most tricky thing to get right.
It's not enough to be successful. It's not enough to do good work. You _also_
have to do it in the way that helps your management the most. Some people
intuitively know what that is -- that's called talent. One of my biggest
assets is that for my entire life I've lacked such talent and so I've been
forced to learn through bitter experience why things work the way they do. And
having done so, I can reason about it effectively, where my talented coworkers
are often clueless.

So use your jealousy and learn about the world! It's fascinating. Over time,
you may find (like me) that the puzzle over why some things are popular is
more interesting than worrying about why your work isn't more popular. Cheer
on your successful coworkers because that first success may have been a fluke.
If not, though, you have an invaluable source for learning about success.

~~~
2sk21
Fascinating story about your manager! Its great that you have the self-
awareness to recognize your own contribution to the situation.

------
bigred100
Go home and take a nap

------
codeisawesome
Use it as fuel.

------
joaofiliperocha
ignore it

------
gingabriska
High flying - most of the times people are only good at some specific things
and you've no idea what silly things (according to you) they might be
struggling with.

Invalidate them - well, this is an emotional response, I've experienced it in
chatroom/real life too where some person contributes too much value instead of
getting respect they end up getting attacked. Untill, they move beyond the
point where their success speaks for them and where attacking them would only
result on you wasting your time. So understand someone is good at something
and move on, maybe instead of invalidating them, befriend them and play
supporting role in their work if you want to, maybe someday they'll take
backseat and push you forward to carry on the baton.

What happened to Galileo, it's high time you realize you might not get instant
respect and acknowledgment for what you contribute, you should only look for
respect and validation from yourself, not from others. It's difficult yes, but
once you go this route, what others say will stop mattering.

Bunch of people praising someone isn't sign of genius as ability to hear
thunder isn't sign of good ear.

When I was young, I did try to invalidate everyone's success this resulted in
me being bitter and outcast and finally being alone. That much negativity
isn't good for anyone's sanity.

Now if I find someone is good at something, I ask them for my role, I ask them
if they want me to do something for them. I want to part of their team, not
always it's possible but I acknowledge their efforts and success and never
invalidate it.

------
anbop
Really, none of this matters. We are the tiniest disturbance in the Universe —
a momentary phenomenon on one of a gajillion particle balls that sent out a
few infinitesimal pieces of dust in different directions before self-
destructing.

So find something to enjoy while you fritter away your pointless existence. Is
it family, or food, or art... if you are struggling to survive, none of this
really applies, but I don’t think that’s your situation.

------
draw_down
In life there will always be someone better, smarter, richer, whatever. That’s
just life. I don’t know how to deal with it other than accepting that.

