
What Do Kids Say Is The Biggest Obstacle To Technology At School? - audreyw
http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/what_do_kids_say_is_the_biggest_obstacle_to_techno.php
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ctdonath
Asking students what they think they need to learn? Problem is, they don't
know - so they answer with whatever is the niftyest gizmo they adhere to.

The real answer is: they need to learn to DO THE WORK with whatever tools they
have. I teach introductory programming, and the biggest problem students have
is lack of inclination to simply perform and submit assignments (about 1/3rd
suffer this affliction); it is not for lack of understanding, but for lack of
action. Getting wound up in arguments about the suitability of various
technologies completely misses the problem: if a student is unwilling to
absorb the material as given, and to perform assignments on whatever medium is
available, they will not learn.

An old copy of Knuth's "Art of Computer Programming" and a willing student
will make a far more talented engineer than giving a disinterested student an
iPad with anywhere/anytime access to the totality of human knowledge
(including Angry Birds).

~~~
guptaneil
> An old copy of Knuth's "Art of Computer Programming" and a willing student
> will make a far more talented engineer than giving a disinterested student
> an iPad with anywhere/anytime access to the totality of human knowledge
> (including Angry Birds).

Likewise, a willing student with an iPad is going to have the potential to
learn so much more than a disinterested student with a textbook.

If a student is disinterested and completely lacks motivation, it won't matter
if you use a tablet or a textbook, that student is probably not going to learn
much. However, a willing and interested student can learn so much more with
newer, more powerful tools. Does it really make sense to hold the willing
student back because of the disinterested student?

As far as motivating the lazy student goes, you are far more likely to spark
their interest with real-world applications on a tablet or smartphone than
with a boring old textbook.

~~~
onan_barbarian
"However, a willing and interested student can learn so much more with newer,
more powerful tools."

This is complete bullshit. To stay within the grand-parent post's framework
(although Knuth is perhaps a reach), you would reach a fixed point where
adding nifty tech isn't going to make your experience studying Knuth that much
more productive. It would be nice to have a decent laptop capable of running a
compiler and whatever IDE or not-so-integrated environment you prefer; a well
configured device from the last 5 years would be fine. An iPad isn't going to
solve any problems here.

Lazy students are lazy because they don't want to think hard, solve problems
and learn. This is largely a constant and is not going to be affected by being
given a iPad.

To quote Jack Vance (why not?): "Whatever you have heard about me, dismiss it.
I do not regard my class as a confrontation between the clear light of my
intellect and twenty-two examples of sloth and willful stupidity. The exact
number may be only half that, if we are lucky, and of course varies from term
to term."

~~~
guptaneil
Based on your logic, calculators shouldn't have ever been introduced in the
classroom either because an abacus filled our needs. Or perhaps 128k of memory
really was enough, since what possible use could we have for more memory or
advanced technology if the status quo fills our current needs?

We are just beginning to untap the possibilities of mobile devices in the
classroom, and to completely dismiss them as "nifty tech" is very short
sighted. People tried to do the same ten years ago when laptops started
appearing in classrooms. Had they succeeded, companies like Google would not
even exist today.

We are seeing many interesting uses of mobile devices in education now that
the devices are finally appearing in classrooms. However, until they become
more ubiquitous and accepted, it will be impossible to fully demonstrate how
much they can impact education.

Having spoken to professors who have personally experimented with iPads in
classrooms, I can tell you it makes a day and night difference just in student
engagement when they are given a textbook to study from versus being
encouraged to explore a topic and discuss it using mobile devices like the
iPad. I've observed biology classes where roughly half of the students used an
iPad. These students consistently participated more than the other students.
There are several reasons for this behavioral change, but I think the most
important one is the design of the device and OS. It focuses on the single
task at hand. When an app becomes the whole device and actually discourages
multitasking, students pay attention more compared to their distracting laptop
screens. Compared to laptop users, they also benefitted from a lack of a
physical barrier from the laptop screen between the student and instructor.
Those students that had no electronic device and just depended on the textbook
generally participated the least and seemed least interested. It will be
interesting to see how these devices continue to change how classrooms operate
as more and more schools open up to the idea.

Keep in mind that the target audience is not tech savvy nerds, but the typical
student, who for the most part is still afraid of using traditional laptops.
These students, however, live off of their cell phones, so why not take
advantage of an environment they are already comfortable in to encourage
learning instead of forcing them into a foreign environment?

~~~
WalterBright
Back in the olden daze, I was taught in college with nothing more than a prof
and a blackboard, and I took notes. It works fine. I learned a helluva lot in
a very short time.

The thing is, it takes work to learn something. You have to make an effort.
Labor saving machinery doesn't help any more than using a motorcycle to train
for a marathon.

As they say in athletics, no pain = no gain.

~~~
guptaneil
It worked fine for you, me, and the majority of HN. However, something clearly
isn't working in the education system for the majority of students today,
hence all the talk of "educational reform."

Nobody will disagree that it takes work to learn, and I am by no means
proposing that technology is a magic bullet that will make learning easy all
of a sudden. All I am suggesting is that technology can help make aspects of
learning easier in order to allow students to focus on the more difficult
aspects.

Just like athletes wear specialized gear to reduce unnecessary pain, we can
use technology to reduce unnecessary work in the education system and focus on
the actual learning.

~~~
ctdonath
Yes, something is clearly not working in the education system: students are
not learning "DO THE WORK". Sure nifty gadgets can help - but only if the
student is going to do the work in the first place. I'm not talking about
"difficult aspects", I'm talking about the very simplest of tasks, like
starting an online at-your-convenience quiz, or handing in a homework
assignment with no more content than "I'm confused". I'm talking about
students who do so little that if you gave them 100% on everything they do
submit they still won't break a 50%.

No amount of specialized gear will help an athlete if he won't move when the
game begins.

~~~
guptaneil
So you're proposing that for those students who have not yet been motivated to
work hard as a result of a broken system, we should just keep trying to force
them through that system with no change? There are many, many reasons why the
education system is not working, and there are many proposed solutions. No one
solution is going to fix things, but they can contribute steps towards the
overall solution. By dismissing all technology as nifty gadgets and refusing
to even consider changing a broken system for a new generation, you're giving
up before even trying.

One reason the educational system isn't working anymore is the behavioral
changes in children that have been encouraged through cell phone and social
networking usage. It's been shown that face-to-face discussion is intimidating
and harmful to brainstorming or learning effectiveness [1]. This is why
children and young adults prefer texting and communicating through Facebook
over face-to-face socializing or even phone calls. Despite this fact, the size
of classrooms continue to grow as we cram more and more students together to
fight for the instructor's attention and to discuss topics in front of each
other. Then we sit back and wonder, why students are intimidated and are
unable to learn.

We have a classroom full of unengaged students staring blankly at an
instructor, we know that they're intimidated to engage and ask questions in
front of such a large group, and we know that they already have mobile devices
on them that they _are_ comfortable communicating and engaging with in large
groups. But instead of taking advantage of those devices, you (and everybody
else) seem to want to ignore everything and just keep trying to force students
through a system that's not working for them anymore.

[1]:
[http://books.google.com/books?id=RNiFM9br5PwC&lpg=PP1...](http://books.google.com/books?id=RNiFM9br5PwC&lpg=PP1&dq=medici%20effect&pg=PA108#v=onepage&q=osborns%20claim&f=false)

------
warwick
The idea of kids using their cellphones in class brought an article that
Frasier Speirs wrote back in October to mind:
<http://speirs.org/blog/2010/10/9/run-what-ya-brung.html>

He argues that there are a number of assumptions that come into play with
using pupil's phones in this manner. He's worth reading, since he's involved
in a project bringing tablet computers (currently iPads) into the school that
he's working for and integrating them into their teaching. The entire series
is fascinating reading if you're interested in mobile technology in schools.

------
rchowe
My school censors almost everything on the internet. paulgrahm.com is blocked
for being a personal site, as are all blogs, wikis, and forums. And the best
part? The teachers have different censors so if a teacher gives you an
assignment with links on it there's a fairly good chance you won't be able to
use most of the links. I use my iPhone at school to do research because it has
an uncensored internet connection.

------
onan_barbarian
This is a baffling question to be asking, given that the evidence that
computers are a wonderful aid to learning is scant. Making it easier to putz
around on cellphones at school hardly sounds like a educational advance.

~~~
guptaneil
Actually, there is significant evidence that integrating mobile technology
into the classroom does in fact aid learning, but only of the instructor is
will to embrace the technology instead of fight it. Unfortunately, most
instructors don't feel comfortable changing their teaching methods, so
technology is seen as having no impact.

Here's one article about one professor's experience with integrating Twitter
into the classroom:
[http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/how_one_teacher_uses_tw...](http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/how_one_teacher_uses_twitter_in_the_classroom.php)

There are numerous similar examples of teachers that are experimenting with
technology and seeing positive results, but are being stonewalled by
administrators who are afraid of trying something new.

Yes, there's always a risk that students will just be able to play Angry Birds
on their phones in class, but then, those same students can just doodle in
their notebooks instead. Should we take all notebooks and pencils away? Any
tool has the potential to be abused, but it also has the potential to
significantly help.

~~~
onan_barbarian
Significant evidence != an article about some dude using Twitter in the
classroom. The plural of blogpost isn't 'data', just like the plural of
anecdote isn't data.

Do you have a _study_? You know, one of those strange things where two
different approaches go through this bizarre process of comparison.

So far most of the evidence for tech in the classroom is either inconclusive
or tends to connect it with negative outcomes.

~~~
guptaneil
<http://www.nd.edu/~cangst/NotreDame_iPad_Report_01-06-11.pdf>

<http://robertkozma.com/images/kozma_jrte.pdf>

<http://www.educause.edu/ELI7Things>

[http://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/eval/tech/evidence-based-
practic...](http://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/eval/tech/evidence-based-
practices/finalreport.pdf)

[http://www.ted.com/talks/sugata_mitra_the_child_driven_educa...](http://www.ted.com/talks/sugata_mitra_the_child_driven_education.html)

Not formal studies but great anecdotes:

[http://www.fastcompany.com/1727292/apple-ipad-officially-
pas...](http://www.fastcompany.com/1727292/apple-ipad-officially-passes-the-
higher-eduction-test-exclusive)

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1-8OOrBi0o&feature=playe...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1-8OOrBi0o&feature=player_embedded)

Anything on <http://speirs.org/>

And of course, there's always the success of Khan Academy.

There are many, many more studies and anecdotes available, but these are the
ones I either had bookmarked or could remember off the top of my head.

You're right that there's no absolutely conclusive and irrefutable study about
tech in classroom because nobody has undertaken such a bold experiment.
However, all of the evidence is there and points to the potential of adopting
newer tools in classrooms. Unfortunately, people who blindly dismiss all
applications of technology in the classroom have slowed farther, more
informative studies from being conducted.

~~~
onan_barbarian
This appears to be a dump of randomly selected research papers, many of which
don't measure anything remotely connected to outcomes. The standard practice
seems to be to do a bunch of surveys afterwards to measure how awesome
everyone thought everything had been.

However, I did appreciate this bit from the ed.gov one:

"An unexpected finding was the small number of rigorous published studies
contrasting online and face-to-face learning conditions for K–12 students."

No shit.

~~~
guptaneil
The data set is too small to achieve a conclusive outcome yet. As more
classrooms experiment with these technologies, we'll get more insights. Until
then, surveys are the best way to get an idea of how something is working for
students.

As for the random dump of research papers, I tried originally offering a more
succinct argument with an anecdote, but you wanted more evidence so I obliged.

~~~
onan_barbarian
From what I've seen, so far, when actual outcomes are measured for the whole
'computers in schools', rigorous studies tend to show negative or inconclusive
effects.

I'm sure that surveys asking questions like "Was everything MOAR AWESUM in
class today?" would have similarly suggested that everyone is more 'engaged'
by the computers, but we don't go to school to be engaged, we go to school to
learn. If we are 'engaged' by something irrelevant - for example, spending an
hour dicking around with the fonts on a presentation - we might report
wonderful levels of engagement while achieving zero outcomes.

~~~
guptaneil
Do you have any studies that show these negative effects you keep mentioning?
I'm curious to see why they failed. Obviously just tossing technology into a
classroom won't do anything, which is what most schools with iPad programs are
doing. It has to be adopted by the instructor and actually integrated into the
learning process, which is a difficult thing to do.

I agree that surveys are not the most reliable or valid measure of success,
but combined with the anecdotal evidence seen by the various experiments,
there is a strong case to be made that technology has the _potential_ to
provide major positive changes once implemented properly. We have to start the
search for the proper implementation somewhere.

------
pflats
As a teacher, I'm not quite sure what the survey is really reaching for. The
kids bring their own technology into school, so that they can use it, and...
what? Browse the internet for scholarly sources on a 4 inch screen?

There's not a lot of technology that truly enhances education. LCD projectors
make a huge difference. Document cameras (if you haven't seen one, it's
essentially a webcam on an arm with VGA out) are wonderful, they let you put
any student work, textbook, etc. on display. Online books and online "flash
card" sites are also useful. The thing is, though, almost all of these are
just improvements on technology that's been around for decades. A LCD
projector with document camera is an overhead projector where you can be
spontaneous rather than rely on transparencies. There's lots of other cool
stuff - student response systems, wireless networking for TI calculators,
Geometer's Sketchpad - I could go on. I've even friended problem students on
xbox live for the explicit purpose needling them on their time playing call of
duty instead of doing their homework.

The thing is, though, none of this requires a student's cell phone. There is
no killer app (that I'm aware of). Instead, the cell phone is a major
disciplinary issue. Teachers and administrators are wary for a reason:
students are irresponsible with the devices, and presently, they cause more
problems then they solve.

------
pdaviesa
I have many friends and family members who are in k-12 education (mostly
teachers but some administrators and executives). Their edu experience ranges
from 10-40 years in different socio-economic districts. Every one of them says
the single largest factor in determining the success of a student is parental
involvement. It doesn't matter if you give a kid the latest smart
phone/iPad/laptop if that kid gets home and is never asked about what they're
learning in school, how their homework is coming along, when parent/teacher
conferences are scheduled, etc. I think it's high time we find a way to
motivate parents across the board to take a more proactive role with their
children's education (perhaps using some of the state education money per
child as a monetary incentive for parents who meet certain "involvement"
milestones).

------
DannoHung
The biggest obstacle is that the lessons don't integrate technology. The
technology is expected to graft onto the existing lessons and make it better
in a vague and nebulous way.

As ctdonath's post indicates: The old lessons work just as well given a text
book and paper. The new lessons, one that could not be performed without the
technology have not been developed yet.

I mean, this is a bit like complaining that the socratic method is not
enhanced by pencil and paper.

~~~
pflats
Agreed entirely. My best lessons, ones that integrate technology and really
engage the students who don't usually care, take hours to plan, test, iterate
and improve.

Some days, I think about trying to make a company dedicated to period-long
drop-in replacement lessons. I'm just not quite sure the market is there.

------
TGJ
More and more people have been bringing laptops to some of my classes. I find
the clicking keys to be very annoying. I'd go nuts if the whole class typed
their notes.

