
The attack of the SuperFakes - SQL2219
https://techcrunch.com/2017/12/03/the-attack-of-the-superfakes/
======
cantrip
If a high quality watch is made from the same materials, in the same
conditions, with the same brand logo, what does the term fake even mean?

From the article:

"Historically, less than 5 percent of the watches that we authenticate are
fake,” said Powell. “At one point this number was as high as 10 percent.”
However, the numbers are growing."

Is it possible that the number of "fake" watches was always going up but that
even experts can't tell the difference any more?

And lastly, is it legal for watch sellers re-sell fake watches themselves? If
they do, what incentive does a watch seller have for telling you the watch you
want to sell to them is authentic?

~~~
adventured
> If a high quality watch is made from the same materials, in the same
> conditions, with the same brand logo, what does the term fake even mean?

It means made by an entity without authorization to produce that thing with
that brand. Not authentic. It's operating without the historical reputation of
the brand (company) behind it, which typically applies to things such as
quality, customer service, resale value, etc.

If I buy an identical item (as close as possible) to a high priced luxury
watch, made by a counterfeiter, are they going to provide me support for the
item I bought? Do they stand behind the counterfeit? No. That's the
consequence of it not being authentic, it doesn't come with any of the other
substance behind it.

~~~
goialoq
"Authorization" is not more of a factor in quality than materials and
production. Authorization is a proxy for these things.

------
neya
This is not just limited to watches, of course. I'm an avid collector of
headphones. One of my favorite legendary headphones is the Sony MDR V6 [1]. I
made about 3 purchases before I could get my hands on a real one. Even some
popular retailers sell fakes unknowingly. The fakes are so good that most of
the time you wouldn't even know [2]. And they only keep improving.

There was once I spotted a fake in a Sony showroom in Asia and even they were
blown away when I pointed out the differences. Thankfully, they took it off
the shelf.

It's a really, really a sad thing in the collector's world.

China of course, is where most fakes are made, and you'd be surprised how many
fakes are out there on Alibaba, despite Jack Ma claiming otherwise. This is
their bread and butter. With all that said, I think it's perhaps a cultural
issue, as everything they possess is a clone of something:

Baidu = Google

Weibo = Twitter

Youtube = Youku

.

.

.

.

Even their high speed rails were a brutal rip off of the Japanese trains [3]

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_MDR-V6](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_MDR-V6)

[2]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiGoyNbVDvI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiGoyNbVDvI)

[3] [http://fortune.com/2013/04/15/did-china-steal-japans-high-
sp...](http://fortune.com/2013/04/15/did-china-steal-japans-high-speed-train/)

~~~
foobarrio
There seems to be at least some differing cultural values. I've had
experiences with tea houses in TW/CN where the tea that is served is not
really what I ordered and instead of being embarrassed or apologetic about it,
they are impressed that I can even tell the difference! My friend had someone
brew the same tea in different ways and try to sell it to him at different
prices. When called out the guy seemed delighted at the challenge!

------
Animats
In the Swiss watch business, many movements are made by outsourcing firms.
Some of the fakes have the same movement as the real item. It's all about the
branding.

If you want to know what time it is, get a solar-powered Casio G-Shock that
corrects from WWV and similar time sources. Costs $89.[1] Requires no user
attention. More accurate than any mechanical watch.

[1] [https://www.amazon.com/G-Shock-AWG-M100-1ACR-Tough-Solar-
Ato...](https://www.amazon.com/G-Shock-AWG-M100-1ACR-Tough-Solar-
Atomic/dp/B00791R1BO)

~~~
sdrothrock
> Some of the fakes have the same movement as the real item.

Not just "some," many of them do, in fact.

A lot of low end "luxury" watches don't even have custom movements, just
standard ETAs. Chinese factories can produce clones of the ETA 2824 and 2836
movements, so you can get a fake watch with the exact same movement for a
fraction of the price. If you ever decide you want COSC-level timing, you can
just buy an ETA and swap it in.

Factories are also producing high-quality replicas of in-house movements such
as the Rolex 3132 -- I say "replicas" because they can take the same parts
that you'd use to repair a genuine movement. Once you're at that level, you
need a loupe and a mental encyclopedia to be able to figure out what's going
on and which is real.

Edit: Replaced "China" to clarify that it's not a national aim or anything
like that.

> G-shock

Ironically, the fake industry doesn't just apply to mechanical watches -- even
G-shocks are faked quite well. You can buy them from $5-10 quite often because
the base parts are just that cheap.

~~~
makomk
Last I heard, the fake G-shocks lacked the more exotic features of the ones
they were cloning and kept much worse time. China doesn't seem to be that good
at producing accurate quartz watches for whatever reason. There are some
reasonably-priced analog watches with imported movements, but that's not an
option for digital. There really doesn't seem to be any better option than
genuine Casio right now.

------
dclowd9901
I see people crying about high quality fakes, and I interpret it as the
initial problem with the luxury goods market: they’re bullshit and overvalued.
If your product can easily be replaced by a much lower price knock off, what
you’ve made is something of no actual value, and you get what you deserve.

~~~
derpaderp1
We all knowingly support software patents with the businesses we work with.

This is no different.

These brands were there first and did the research and development pursuant to
establishing what is a good user experience and most-desirable in a handbag,
watch, et cetera.

~~~
jacquesm
No, those handbags and watches are bought simply because they allow the buyer
to signal 'status'. If people with less money also get to signal that same
status then the original loses its value. That's really all there is to it, a
good user experience doesn't come in to play at all (most of that stuff is
unusable anyway) and the 'most desirable' bit is exactly that: status.

~~~
dreamfactored
It's about design, and design is inherently about quality and value. It's the
reason you might choose to pay more for a handmade Italian shirt made in a
small workshop that has been running forever compared to a mass-produced one
made with the cheapest labour in Myanmar (though functionally equivalent at a
basic level). The Italian shirt will have better fabric, stitching, a more
expensive split-yoke that hangs better on your body - real tangible things.
Design only denotes status via knowledge of this value, not by having the
money to afford it per se. So it's more a marker of education and
sophistication. That does mean moving up Maslow's hierarchy so there is an
economic element but that's not the essence of it. Sure I would need more
money to buy the handmade shirt from the Tuscan workshop, but I would also
need to know about it in the first place and why it might be worth paying more
- it's really more about knowledge than money. So are Adidas any better than
low cost no-name trainers or knockoffs? For a kid the answer is unequivocal
and you are socially dead without the original; I hover between the two
personally.

Design is not about 1%er luxury or fashion fads - it's really important at a
national level. Obviously there is soft power with its indirect effects, but
there is also the direct economy. Good design eventually tends to become
commoditised and so there is economic value in being able to create new design
- this is actually a vital process for every developed economy not to be
crushed by whichever country is offering the cheapest labour.

An example is suitcase manufacturer Rimowa. If you look at their website it's
a history of innovation in their field for the last 100 years, from aluminium
trunks in the 1930s, to watertight luggage in the 70s. Still if you want a
super expensive very high quality aluminium suitcase, they don't have
competition, I guess due to that requiring pretty specialised production and
expensive raw materials. If you buy one from them, they will repair it and
knock dents out for free for lifetime (likewise Hermes will clean and press
their ties for free, a difficult job which can easily ruin a silk tie) - so
very high quality and standards. Maybe one day you will be able to buy a near-
enough Asian copy for very cheap, but until then, this German company has the
whole world's business for really nice aluminium cases. Rimowa also made a
materials innovation in 2000 with polycarbonate suitcases - extremely
lightweight, flexible, and near unbreakable from impact. For quite a while
they were the only ones to make them. Recently however, that's been
commoditised and you can buy cheap knockoffs which are fairly close to the
original at a functional level. So now Rimowa have to find the next innovation
as the cycle repeats to find a new USP for their products (e.g. now they are
starting to get into trackable luggage with electronic airline tags).

That's Rimowa, but each company in a developed country within a global economy
cannot compete on being cheapest, and instead needs to follow this process of
competing on intellectual capital to stay in business. It requires at least a
society with high levels of education in design, and a functioning legal
system covering IP. China are now also starting to face this reality as they
cease to provide the cheapest labour globally and have a growing middle class
to support - and you'll therefore see increasing focus on design, innovation,
quality, and finally IP even.

To your original complaint, you do sometimes hear of flashy gaudy things which
are supposed to signal status via cost (tacos made with gold leaf and caviar,
diamond-encrusted phones, gold-plated ferraris etc) - but you'll notice that
those are considered poor design, never get taken up and commoditised, and
only have economic value as marketing tools to get gawpers in for lower price
items. They don't ever represent real IP in the way that the ipad, or high
quality luxury goods do, but are instead held up as anti-patterns (which is
why we hear about them).

~~~
flukus
> It's the reason you might choose to pay more for a handmade Italian shirt
> made in a small workshop that has been running forever compared to a mass-
> produced one made with the cheapest labour in Myanmar (though functionally
> equivalent at a basic level). The Italian shirt will have better fabric,
> stitching, a more expensive split-yoke that hangs better on your body - real
> tangible things.

I'd be curious to see if you could tell the difference under blind testing. In
just about every other area it turns out that most people can't tell the
difference.

~~~
dreamfactored
I have expensive shirts and cheap ones. Definitely a tangible difference in
look and feel, but some of my most functional are a cheap range from uniqlo
which don't need any ironing and use good cotton. Unfortunately you are
usually paying for a double yoke. It's true that what we think of as designer
brands in clothing tend to rebadge and sometimes the only value they add is
some visual design element. It's a part of why we see a focus on 'the
artisanal economy' \- a logo can be reproduced easily but somebody who has had
decades of sewing shirt collars or handmaking shoes can't and has scarcity as
well as quality. Not scalable individually but collectively very high value in
much the same way.

------
ChrisClark
I know a very wealthy businessman in China, he's expected to wear expensive
watches, dress the part, etc. But he just buys fakes all the time. It looks
real enough to impress, and he saves a lot of money.

~~~
dreamfactored
The business guys who are into watches tend to have a good look at each
others, talk watch collecting for a while, and can usually tell fakes.

~~~
ASalazarMX
The business guys who are into watches tend to buy fakes that can fool people
like them.

FTFY

~~~
dreamfactored
I've had exactly that conversation with a few. You'd be surprised how many are
serious collectors who invest in watches. That doesn't work with fakes. That
whole Rolex culture is also a deliberate part of how they sniff out fake
people. The examples in the article were terrible, I'm not a watch guy and
could spot them a mile off. I can usually tell with bags, wallets, shoes. Very
few fakes don't have clear tells if you know the originals, I sometimes wonder
if it's deliberate.

------
RickJWagner
In a way, I guess this is a form of 'luxury tax'.

You can buy an excellent watch for under $30 at any Wal-Mart. It'll come with
a no-hassle warranty, will be handsome in appearance and will function
flawlessly.

But it won't be a 'luxury good' and it never will be.

~~~
SyneRyder
That reminds me of a quote from the book "The Billionaire Who Wasn't", about
Chuck Feeney, co-founder of DFS, who secretly donated $8 Billion to various
charitable causes until he was outed:

 _“Since my earliest days I have been frugal, but I am a frugal person in that
I hate waste, at any level,” says Feeney, who always wears off-the-peg
clothes, a cheap plastic watch, and reading glasses of the type sold in book-
stores. “If I can get a watch for $15 that keeps perfect time, what am I doing
messing around with a Rolex?”_

~~~
makomk
I imagine there may have been some other reasons he wanted to keep the
donations to Sinn Fein a secret at least, but yeah... (Their paramilitary wing
the Provisional IRA was still bombing British cities back then.)

------
Alex3917
> But in the case of watches like Movado, Omega and Rolex, it’s getting harder
> to tell the real from the replica and the stakes are surprisingly high.

Verizon should send the author to live in Yemen for a year.

