
Ask HN: 9-5 Burnout? - notoriousarun
I always feel a little strange among all the other 9-5 workers. It&#x27;s really difficult for me to do that every day of the week.<p>Does anyone else feels the same way? How do you handle daily burn out?
======
logicslave
I took 18 months off, built a machine learning product and then sold it for a
modest amount of money. It was very exciting for me. Then I joined a FAANG
company, and I'll be honest, I am completely miserable. I feel like I am in a
cage, and the time off only convinced me that I am happier in other modes of
being. The unhappiness of working that I attributed to burn out was really
because I actually just hated having a job, any job. But theres no easy
answer, starting a company is financially very risky.

"They are born, put in a box; they go home to live in a box; they study by
ticking boxes; they go to what is called "work" in a box, where they sit in
their cubicle box; they drive to the grocery store in a box to buy food in a
box; they talk about thinking "outside the box"; and when they die they are
put in a box."

-Nassim Taleb

~~~
bob33212
A lot of people who say they enjoy their job at a big company only work 10-20
hours a week. They may be at the office or on their computer 40 hours a week
but most of that time is spent doing things they enjoy ( chatting with
friends, gossiping, spending time with people they find attractive, learning
new technologies, browsing the internet, travel planning) They don't spend
much time worrying about bonuses, promotions or what is best for the company.

~~~
pram
I’ve been doing practically nothing since February, plenty of time to work on
my hobbies. This is about the third time in my overall career that this has
happened, and all at giant companies. At Oracle I had a 4 month period where I
did absolutely nothing and didn’t even have a manager lol.

~~~
wolco
That happened to me and I couldn't handle it. Then when I started getting work
I resented the time away from my side projects. Handling time off is a skill
itself.

------
yesburnout
I have been feeling burned out for last 5 years or so. I keep working because
I have responsibilities, wife, parents, kids, mortgage etc.

If I didn't had responsibilities, I would have quit my job, spend a few months
relaxing/traveling/reading, and find something more meaningful. I fantasize
about this a lot.

Unfortunately, I have to keep working. A few things that help me are:

1\. I started to side-hustle as Realtor. This helps by making me feel like
that I can quit software dev whenever I want to. The feeling of having choice
helps make shitty situation less bad. Also since it is so different from
programming, that I feel refreshed doing real estate stuff on weekends.

2\. I spend a lot of time to figure out my passion/purpose. Your passion may
not earn you a living but once you know your passion, you may enjoy your work
because it lets you pursue your passion/purpose. Someone will say that my kids
should be my purpose. I spend a lot of time with them and enjoy it but it
still doesn't feel fulfilled. You should set an example for your kids that it
is okay to pursue your happiness as long as you are meeting your
responsibilities.

3\. Reading too many books on this topic. They have helped me feel calm and I
feel whatever happens, I will figure out my passion/purpose and get/make a job
that makes me feel happy.

~~~
jlokier
> You should set an example for your kids that it is okay to pursue your
> happiness as long as you are meeting your responsibilities.

I think this is a really great point by itself, that I don't often see
articulated so clearly.

------
grawprog
9-5 is just kind of a lousy schedule in general. I preferred 8-4 or even 7-3
when I had the choice. 9-5 cuts too much of the evening out and makes even
being at home feel like a chore and the extra hour in the morning doesn't
really make up for it. Having an extra hour or two after work ends up making a
big difference. It gives you some time to just relax or do something else
before making dinner and stuff. You miss the worst of rush hour, the grocery
stores are still not packed up so even the commute and after work stops go
faster.

That said though, it doesn't really stop burnout in the long run. You still
end up going through that same cycle you do with a 9-5 and it still ended up
getting to me.

~~~
proverbialbunny
For me, if I'm working a 9 to 5 and am forced to do lunch at noon, it is
pretty brutal. I don't handle longer than 3 hours of sitting in a row after
lunch. Sitting from 1 to 5pm is just too much.

If I work a 9 to 5 and my lunch hour starts at 1pm or even 2pm, it works out
quite well. One remedy I've done is working an 8 to 4.

Imho it's just better if lunch starts a bit later in the day.

------
demygale
Most 9-5 employees work a lot less than you think. Coders tends to think of
productivity as all day long. Any task that isn’t coding is not productive.
Look at a day in the life of management or administrative roles and you’ll see
why the burn out a lot less.

~~~
Spartan-S63
I think part of the burnout is the fetishization of "coding." This concept
that you have to be cranking out code to be productive is frankly untrue and
unhealthy. The thing that software engineers do is solve problems and a lot of
their day can be spent thinking about solving the problem and that's perfectly
productive. I'd rather spend six hours thinking about a problem and an hour
implementing it, than blindly write code for hours because I haven't spent
time considering how to approach the problem.

Management and administration, though, can be just as taxing. It's a lot of
people interaction, which can be draining. It's also a job where you have to
keep a bunch of balls in the air without dropping them. I've done a little of
both as anchor/lead in previous roles and it's draining to do either and
especially draining to do both (but extremely rewarding).

~~~
tmaly
I agree that a lot of non-coders see a coder not typing on the keyboard as not
being productive. Thinking is one of the most underrated skills in the world.

~~~
Spartan-S63
Going from a culture where I pair programmed all day and mostly just pulled
stories from the backlog, working from home in an org where pairing is less
prevalent (but not non-existent), it's taken me time to retrain my personal
expectations that it's okay to count work time as time spent thinking about
how to solve the problem.

------
mips_avatar
For me the guilt gets to me. I feel guilty for not imparting 40 hours of
focused time in the office, I feel like I'm a slacker or don't deserve to be
in my career. I don't think this guilt is helpful, as I only really do work
I'm proud of when I've had good breaks to regain myself.

~~~
potta_coffee
I don't know anyone that puts in 40 hours of focused work.

------
UglyToad
Yes, I've felt this for years. By the end of the typical day I have absolutely
no energy for anything. It seems to have been getting worse as well, the scope
of my life becomes surviving the workday and nothing beyond that; no energy to
see friends, go anywhere, do anything. And the scope has become increasingly
circumscribed. This has persisted between changes in diet, job, location,
exercise regime, etc.

By chance I happened to see a comment on fibromyalgia on HN the other day and
I'll be damned if I don't meet every symptom exactly. It helps to know that's
the likely cause (every previous attempt to achieve a diagnosis for the
fatigue from doctors ended nowhere) but obviously there's no real solution so
it's just about accepting those limitations.

------
zerr
Only [non-consecutive] 3 hours is a productive work out of holy 8 hours per
day.

~~~
notoriousarun
Hard Truth.

------
trcollinson
A number of people will probably tell you to be your own boss, try herbal
remedies, change your sleeping habit, etc. And those are all really good
answers. But let me suggest one other thing.

First off, if you think you are feeling burnout, you are. There is no
checklist that makes burnout "real". It's how you feel about you. So, get with
a counselor. Talk therapy is really valuable and absolutely excellent for
helping with burnout. You may not need medication (though, you might) but a
qualified mental health professional can help a lot.

I fought against this route for years. I wish I hadn't. When I started
visiting my therapist, Rich, he really helped me a ton. I still have good days
and bad days but now I recognize the issues and I can help to combat them.

Seeking professional help is a good thing!

------
blendo
I was able to find a job that was 9am to 4:30am, with an hour for lunch. That,
and being able to read on my train commute, went a long way towards reducing
burn out.

Then, I negotiated a 4 day work week, along with a 20% pay cut. Loved having a
3 day weekend EVERY WEEK!

[Edit] I meant to say 9am to 4:30pm.

~~~
non-entity
> Then, I negotiated a 4 day work week, at a 20% pay cut

This irks me when the discussion of a shorter work week / day. Why is a pay
cut required as long as I maintain as much productivity. By that logic
shouldn't I get paid more for working longer days or weekends?

~~~
kohtatsu
Yes, that's called overtime.

~~~
non-entity
Aren't most salarie positions not exempt though?

------
sparker72678
This happens to me regularly. Any time we have a long-running project, or I
end up on something with a lot of sucky work for a while, I feel at least
modernly burned out at the end.

There have been other times in my career where I was a lot more than
moderately burned out.

And all of this while working basically 9-5 my career. Never 100 hour weeks.

For me, the minimum is to take some time off. Get away from the drudgery and
have some time to think about other things.

If it's bigger than just a need for a vacation, I'd echo the other comments
here to try to find someone to talk to about it. Have someone talk through it
with you, especially without having an agenda, can be extraordinarily helpful.

------
wh-uws
I make my own schedule doing remote software consulting now and have
previously worked with startups and FAANGM+ after an acquisition.

Over my career I seen many different types of schedules from 9 to 5 , 10 to 6,
basically 24 / 7 (people just starting or working on scaling startups pulling
80 hr weeks)

You have to decide whats right for you and do what you can to shape it the way
you want.

I explain it like this, work life balance is a spectrum.

On one end I know some people for whom work is life. If you contact them at
3pm on Saturday they'll be in the office happily on the grind. Its their
everything.

On the other end you have people who do just enough work to not get fired even
in the middle of the week and focus on their hobbies in their spare time.

I used to think poorly of either extreme and now I've come to the conclusion
that who am I to judge? You make of life what you want to.

I personally have chosen to strike a very strong balance. So there are some
weeks where work is everything and others where personal life is and I work a
max of 8ish hours that week or just take it off all together.

The hard part initially is finding work that is conducive to this.

Startups are not and though larger companies can be the tough part is finding
an organization that has enough trust that people will be respectful of when
to work harder and also when to make sure to take time off or slow down.

I find the right balance of happiness and productivity for me is

\- Full time M, W, Th (usually start between 10am and 12pm) \- Half time Tues
(and Sundays on occasion only when I need extra time to plan out the we
ahead).

Off on Saturdays and most Fridays as well.

I also workout regularly Sun, Tue, Fri. its huge for energy and overall
wellbeing.

I've been toying around with trying to build a community around people who
value schedule flexiblity and strong worklife balance.

There are plenty for the 80hr week startup crowd but less for the lifestyle
business crowd.

feel free to reach out if you are interested

------
kugelblitz
I work freelance contract, usually 3 to 12 months at a time as an extension of
a dev team. This keeps it technically exciting for me, get to meet new people,
and depending on my mood, I might look for projects that are more laid back
and chill (BigCo with many junior / midlevel devs, who need a couple of new
features), or where I need to learn new tech quickly (small team with only
senior devs), or where I can set my own hours (remote team with very few
meetings) and work from 5 AM to 1 PM if it fits.

It's really nice, the first years might be a bit more risky until you've built
up a good network of clients and the current climate might not be the greatest
(maybe wait a few months), but this might be an option.

If you can book yourself continuously at a decent rate, 4 days / week @ 10
months / year should be able to replace your employed income (broad
generalized calculation).

------
proverbialbunny
Most people I know who experience burnout have not learned how to make their
own deadlines. They feel pressured by management's deadlines and blindly do
what they're told instead of what is healthy. Mental and physical health
always comes first. If you're regularly working 50 hours a week to meet a
deadline, you might want to stop and ask yourself why you're doing that.

For me, I've had burnout but it's been from 1) not being treated well by
coworkers or management or 2) not being given the right workload and not
knowing how to express that to management.

~~~
maxlamb
I know people who feel more burned out at a job with no deadlines and very
little work to do. Some people burn out because they feel their work is
meaningless, and so in a way their life in meaningless. Add to that the
feeling that they are still subjugated to their boss's whims, so they are not
in total control over lives. I think finding a company with a
culture/purpose/product that fits your personality is definitely worth the
effort in that it can alleviate those issues.

------
parasthinker
Explore the alternatives, Do what you love for life. ( cliches are true )

------
sfgweilr4f
You are either a duck or a swan. They are similar. But not the same. Neither
is essentially better.

It doesn't matter how you define them. The only important aspect is that once
you realise you are one and not the other you know you don't fit.

You can swim with the others, even eat and socialise with them but understand
you are not the same. You may need to adjust your methods and expectations.
Consider your presence and possible exit strategy carefully. Even how you
interact may need to be adjusted lest you offend them even accidentally.

------
peruvian
I take breaks regularly. By this I mean breaks during the day and actual
vacation. We have "unlimited" PTO and I usually take ~5 weeks off a year
total, give or take.

~~~
giantg2
Can I please have 51 weeks off?

~~~
quickthrower2
Unlimited is a euphemism for limited of course.

~~~
giantg2
I know - all companies are pathological liars.

------
peter_d_sherman
[http://www.paulgraham.com/boss.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/boss.html)

------
jamesnyc
Stop everything for few days. Decide and design your life the way you want.
Then execute ruthlessly toward that direction.

