
Making $60k a month from a podcast on software engineering - skadamat
https://www.indiehackers.com/interview/making-60-000-mo-from-a-podcast-on-software-engineering-0fa342480f
======
scarface74
Slightly off topic, but he mentioned that he got his start from the software
engineering radio podcast that's been around since 2006. I've been binge
listening to that podcast for about two months and it re-enforced two things
that I always suspected.

1\. I made the biggest career mistake of my life by staying at one company
from 1999-2008. I missed out on so much of state of the art technology that I
spent the next 8 years trying to get caught up.

A lot of the things I was just learning in 2009 were already common place for
years before then.

2\. As much as people say "technologies change fast", a lot of the higher
level fundamental concepts they discussed 10 years ago are still relevant
today.

Now back on topic...

A daily podcast that lasts an hour? It's remarkable that he can keep up that
pace. Could he make just as much money from having fewer podcasts? would the
scarcity make the podcast more valuable to advertisers?

I think John Grubers talk show podcast charges about $7500 per spot with 3
spots during an average 2 hour show per week. There have to be more software
developers who would want a high quality podcast than people willing to hear
Gruber's ramblings (no offense - I listen to his podcast every week).

~~~
michaelbuckbee
There are two different podcast listening strategies (which informally seem
about equally utilized).

1\. Download and listen to every episode of a podcast. For many this would be
something like Grubers. Listeners typically keep a much smaller number of
podcast subscriptions.

2\. Read the title and possibly the show notes for each episode and if it
sounds interesting download that specific episode.

My listening habits are very much in mode one here, but for something like
software engineering I think it's likely to be much more the second. By
producing so much content and on so many topics they optimize their chance of
getting at least a download a week.

~~~
teekert
Most podcasts I listen too (Linux Unplugged, Linux Action News, No Agenda) are
no longer relevant after a week to a couple of weeks. The value is very much
in the now. That would be a third mode then.

~~~
ahtu123
Same with many news/political podcasts. Hearing speculation about things that
now have actually happened are 90% pretty boring a few weeks later.

------
roel_v
Well they're not 'making' 60k a month - they have _revenue_ of 60k. A small
bakery with a few locations has that sort of revenue. They have payment
processing fees, accounting and other admin costs, housing, hosting, yadda
yadda yadda - not to mention three people on payroll (and not on minimum wage,
I'd imagine).

It would be much more interesting if they would show a balance sheet and
profit and loss statement for the last few years. I've seen companies
flaunting much better looking numbers than this and still go bankrupt. The
real question is: how much is he pocketing, and how does that compare to say a
consulting job?

(another way to put my point is 'it's easy to have revenue of 1mm a month -
start a luxury car dealership, buy 5 250k Lamborghini's each month and sell
them for 200k').

~~~
jacobwal
But the inputs to his podcast are merely time (and one-time equipment costs).
As you point out, a car dealership needs to spend a ton of money on the
inputs, but that doesn't translate to a podcast business.

~~~
CydeWeys
You're forgetting salary, admin costs, and office/recording space (if they
have one). They have three podcasters on staff.

~~~
jacobwal
A fair point. However, those are all relatively fixed. A car dealer needs to
buy a new car to sell one. They don't necessarily have to invest more in the
items you mentioned to grow their revenues.

TLDR: businesses that scale vs those that dont : )

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
Well, the flip side of your argument is that since "his inputs are only time,"
then he only has a fixed amount of time to make money from. Whereas, as long
as the car dealer can sell every car he buys, he just has to keep buying cars
in order to increase his revenues. Clearly there's more to both of these
statements than that, but that's the point!

In any case, roel_v is pointing out that revenue isn't a very good metric
without more data to evaluate it.

I'd like you to provide an example of a business that doesn't scale :-)

~~~
jacobwal
I hear you. I don't find the argument that robust given that everyone is
limited by their time - car salesman included - but I hear you.

Agree that more data helps. For a headline I'd rather see revenue than margin
or profit, as those are more subjective (or net revenue, if you're selling
goods).

Unscalable business? Obviously a subjective take but, to me, that means
anything where you're charging by the hour (e.g. consulting).

------
kristianp
I wish that hour-long podcasts weren't an hour long. They are often too
unstructured and slow paced. I think with some editing for pace they could be
winnowed down to say, 20 minutes. I don't have time to sit around listening to
an hour long podcast, especially not every day and multiple different
podcasts!

I remember the old giants robots ruby podcast was about 20 minutes and covered
3 topics (not sure if I'm remembering correctly though, it's around 40 minutes
these days). [http://giantrobots.fm/](http://giantrobots.fm/)

~~~
joshvm
Structure is an editing problem, but there are lots of people who listen to
podcasts sped up, or with silences removed. Apps like Overcast will do this
for you.

Some podcasts, like Hardcore History, are worth the 5 hour runtime and they're
so rarely published it doesn't really matter.

~~~
criddell
Any recommendations for podcast apps on Android?

I'm carrying around my a junked iPhone 5C and using it just for Overcast. I
haven't been able to find any podcast players on Android that work as well for
me. If I could find one, I could stop carrying two phones.

~~~
buckhx
I've been a fan of PocketCasts. Lots of people recommend podcastaddict because
it's free and has a million knobs, but I enjoy the comparatively slick
interface of PocketCasts.

~~~
arvinsim
Another happy customer of PocketCasts. When I moved from Android to iOS, I
still find PocketCasts to be superior to alternatives.

~~~
criddell
I'm going to give PocketCasts a try. Overcast was pretty much a perfect app
for me. If I can't find something I like as much on Android, Overcast might be
the killer app that makes my next phone an iPhone.

------
gmemstr
As both a listener and once guest of SE Daily (and now contributor to the open
source project), I really appreciate both the content and the community around
it. Jeff is fantastic at conducting the interviews, even with people who arent
very experienced with being interviewed (e.g me). Glad that it's doing so
well. Would be curious to know how many people on HN listen to it as well.

------
socialist_coder
Damn, that is a lot of revenue! Congrats!

Can you share some stats about your advertisers? Like, how many advertisers do
you have per month? How many per show? What is their average spend? How many
months do they usually stay on as an advertiser? Do they normally re-sub
automatically or do you have to get them to commit to another month, every
month? How do you usually find new advertisers, cold calling them or ?

And a personal question, I only listen to US Political podcasts, but I
_always_ press the "skip 30 seconds" button on ads. Why do you think there is
a button that makes it super easy to skip ads built into the Podcasts app? How
do people creating the podcasts feel about that? Do you have any stats on how
many people skip the ads vs listen to the whole thing?

------
anthony_barker
Great quote:

"If I had to start over I would prioritize health — exercise, diet, sleep,
socialization, getting outside for fresh air. I would be nicer to those who
love me, and try to opt for kindness over cleverness."

------
poster123
The title is misleading, considering what the article says: "Our monthly ad
sales have variance, usually falling between $30-60k." If the average revenues
are $45K, that number, not the peak number, should appear in the title.

------
voltagex_
>(Work from 9am to 9pm, six days a week.)

Jesus. I'm sure this is small business owner hours but still, this person
musn't have a family or any other commitments.

~~~
hawkice
This is a typical work commitment in China.
[http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/opinion/2016-09/13/content_2677...](http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/opinion/2016-09/13/content_26779220.htm)

It's not luxuriously easy, but it's not ridiculous, and is microscopically
different from _average_ working hours 150 years ago.

~~~
voltagex_
Sure, but I'm not sure it's something we should be looking to as a healthy
model.

------
jackgolding
I don't think there are many insights about operating a business you can get
from this article but the business owner does have some interesting views on
how to handle your personal and professional life. Also its very interesting
that so many web entrepreneurs played poker so much in their early adulthood.

~~~
gowld
My theory is that entrepeneurship in general, and lean startups especially,
relies a lot on "fake it till you make" and sales that rely on heavy bluffing,
and poker players are the sort of people that can do that. In web tech, it's
especially true, because "lean startup" theory means that you can sell your
product before you build it, but you have to bluff to your customers that you
have already built it and investors (if any) that you know how to build it...
and free-market competition means that since bluffing provides an edge, you
_must_ bluff to keep up with your competitors.

~~~
alaskamiller
At high level, maybe. But poker is really about process and discipline.
Playing poker to create income is a grind.

You sit there for up to 5 hours and do math on odds and make decisions, hand
after hand. Every now and then you utilize bluffing or other techniques to
bully to win a pot. Then you keep stacking to get a bank roll going so you can
get to the next table, the next tier.

The college aged poker kids optimize for it like any engineer. They have
spreadsheets tracking EV on time, earnings per hour.

But if you have the discipline and dedication to go through that for a year or
so, then yeah, you can sit there and code to problem solve or sit there and go
through the hundreds of decisions needed to operate a business.

~~~
ahtu123
Absolutely right. I was terrible at online poker since I wanted to have fun
playing it. You can't bluff someone who knows the math in the long run. You'll
lose all your money.

------
yusee
Thank you so much, Jeff. I've listened to over 100 episodes. Your podcast is
an incredible way to learn about a technology before deciding if it is worth a
deep dive. For anyone who likes to maintain a wide general knowledge base to
help them navigate the rapid advance of trends and truly transformative
technologies, I would highly recommend SE Daily.

And once you're hooked on the tech pieces, check out the rare philosophical
episodes, like
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12584991](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12584991)

------
Myrmornis
I don’t _think_ podcasts are for me, but maybe I’m missing out on something. I
don’t even really know how to play them. Do you stream them or pre-download?
People listen to them on their commute do they, or while driving? So requires
a cellphone contract with no download limit? I guess you don’t just sit in
your living room listening? And you wouldn’t be able to pay attention while
cooking right? I don’t think I can take in information in real time, and I
hate meetings, so I’ve always assumed I should stick to reading and writing
for studying.

~~~
biztos
I use an app[0] that pre-downloads them, and I listen to them on the treadmill
at the gym; while cooking or doing household chores; as background when I'm
coding at night; and, sometimes, to help me get to sleep. For every one of
those uses except the treadmill I sometimes listen to music instead.

Oh yeah, and I sometimes listen to current-affairs stuff in the morning, but
owing to time zone differences that can be tricky.

I'm sure a lot of people listen to them while driving or otherwise commuting,
but my commute is by tram and by foot, and it doesn't fit that well.

I don't find it distracts me from cooking, though from coding sometimes yes
(then I switch to music). I don't just sit in my living room listening without
anything else going on, but I don't think that would be weird. I'd listen to
podcasts in the bath if I had a bathtub.

It took me a while to find a set of podcasts I really like. This is different
for everyone, but I think it's worth spending some time on. I'm still looking
for good ones on a few topics that seem under... undercasted? I think there's
still room for a lot more good podcasts, and some of them will even make a
good living for the host.

You can download everything on WiFi if you like, but they're just audio files
so it doesn't eat that much out of a normal-ish mobile data plan.

Give them a chance, and try a bunch of different ones before making up your
mind. I ended up liking podcasts _way_ more than I expected I would.

[0]: [https://overcast.fm](https://overcast.fm)

------
616c
Just came to say so excited to read this and on the top of HN! Jeff is a hero
of mine.

Jeff, I once responded to your survey. I lost a ton of weight abroad with
nothing going for me bc your podcast and the Changelog podcast gave me the
weird fuel I needed to just run but also learn and be engaged mentally. I find
your career choice from Amazon inspiring as a transition (not to mention
poker) and you always ask insightful questions. I am trying to get into
security with dev work on top bc you make me want to be in that culture, after
a decade of avoiding it as a jaded IT guy.

I have sent every group of developers and tech enthusiasts links to one or
more episodes. I need to make time to contribute to the open source SE Daily
apps. Just because.

Thanks for building me an ethos so I don't have to for myself. ;-)

------
nardi
How to make $60k/mo from a podcast:

 _When I was 19 there was a month when I played poorly and lost ~$250k. I quit
shortly after that. It took me awhile to recover my psychological bearings._

Step 1: Be super rich.

~~~
nardi
I do feel a little bad about this comment--it's probably overly snarky. Maybe
he won that 250 grand playing poker from a small nest egg that he earned at a
minimum wage job. And he isn't claiming to be sharing the secret of success--
he's just sharing his experience, which is valuable regardless of his
beginnings.

I don't know. Something about this rubbed me the wrong way, but it probably
says something more about me than about him or life in general.

~~~
crablar
I started with $100 and built it up, then lost most of it

But also started with a roof over my head, great parents, an internet
connection, etc. I would consider myself a trust fund baby in that sense.

~~~
nardi
See, I knew this was going to happen and then I was going to feel real bad.

One question I do have for you: How did you get Stephen Wolfram, Seth Godin,
etc. to come on your early pods?

~~~
crablar
Emails!

------
sova
Hmm, so you make money from ad revenue. Do you sell ad time (and make advert
announcements) during the podcast?

~~~
crablar
Yes :)

~~~
inteleng
Should be titled "Wasting >>$60,000/mo of people's time, but getting paid
$60,000/mo for it".

~~~
sooheon
This is one part of the truth, but not all of it. The remaining minutes of the
the hour long podcast evidently provide enough value to the listeners for them
to keep tuning in, despite the annoyance of ads. As long as his output has
value and he charges what the market will bear (in terms of ad time), he
should do well.

The point is, it's not a net "waste" of people's time, it enriches their lives
in some way.

------
bankim
SE daily is a great podcast with quality content on new topics in Computer
Science. Jeff asks great questions and really tries to understand the
mechanics of how things work. With an episode every day it's hard to keep up.

------
Gudin
_SE Daily gets ~140,000 downloads per week_

I don't understand how can apps then have 1000-5000 downloads total?

~~~
stedaniels
By using other podcast players :-) Not everyone uses the SE Daily app, they'll
be using RSS/iTunes/etc.

------
pascalxus
This part is really critical, and this interview on indiehackers made it easy
to find (unlike some of the other interviews): I like how they show how they
acquired all their users: Word of mouth!

i do feel like we're in some kind of golden age for podcasts, there's so much
great content out there. maybe i should dump my netflix subscription and just
listen to podcasts?

------
anthony_barker
@crablar

What are your favorite episodes?

------
randomsofr
The site feels so buggy to me, that weird css load and the logo carousel
behaves so odd (not to mention the wrong hover on the left/right arrows), i
just can't stand it.

[https://softwareengineeringdaily.com/](https://softwareengineeringdaily.com/)

~~~
cynwoody
It appears the old site is
[https://softwareengineeringdaily.com/](https://softwareengineeringdaily.com/),
and the new site ("in early beta") is
[https://softwaredaily.com/](https://softwaredaily.com/). The two sites appear
to contain the same set of podcasts.

You can find an RSS feed at:

[https://softwareengineeringdaily.com/feed/podcast](https://softwareengineeringdaily.com/feed/podcast)

Somewhat confusingly, the new site has a navigation link, labeled "Feed", at
the top of the page. But it's not an RSS feed. Rather, it leads to a
compendium of links to interesting articles on software engineering from
around the web. It looks like the plan is to implement voting for the articles
(there is a vote count, but it's empty).

