
What is this thing, called swing? (2016) - Tomte
http://thehomeofhappyfeet.com/what-is-this-thing-called-swing/
======
matheist
(I've been swing dancing 13 years, playing swing music for 6)

This article is very thorough and gets across the nuance and futility of
trying to define "swing" with only a few rules. See especially the section on
swung eighth notes:

> _Swung-eighths. This is where it gets cool and tricky, and if you want to
> swing like crazy, you have to understand this one. When you swing the eighth
> notes, it means that you take a triplet, and you skip the middle sound.
> Essentially what you end up with is 1 and a 2 and a 3 and a 4 and a [side
> note, as a way to emphasize the beginning of the phrase, you’ll sometimes
> hear 1 2 a3 4 a5 6 a7 8 a]. This rhythm is common in Gypsy Jazz or Jazz
> Manouche and is sometimes referred to as a shuffle. This, you may note is a
> 2:1 ratio. Much swing music is actually played closer to a 3:2 ratio, which
> is less displaced, but again there isn’t a great way to notate this, so it’s
> more understood than proscribed._ (The original has strikethrough formatting
> which has been lost in copy/paste)

To make it even more confusing, often rhythm players (guitar, drums, etc) will
keep the swing ratio consistent (across a song, or across a phrase) whereas
melody players (trumpet, sax, etc) might play with the ratio within a melodic
phrase.

Another thing that makes swing swing is syncopation — the author alludes to
this but doesn't define it — namely placing emphasis on the swung eighth notes
that lie between quarter notes, rather than on one of the quarter note beats.
Straight vs swung, and syncopated vs non-syncopated can exist independently,
and you need swung _and_ syncopated for it to feel like swing.

~~~
EADGBE
It's really hard to _talk_ about swing.

It's much easier to _show_.

Also, "tightness" plays a major role in whether someone can swing well or not.
How well _their_ swing matches up to someone else's.

------
21
There was this music production software, FruityLoops (FL Studio today) which
had a "swing" slider. Playing a beat and then moving the slider made it
immediately clear what swing is, and why this word was picked to describe it.

FYI, while it does sound interesting, modern pop music doesn't really use
swing. Probably because "straight" music is more dance-able.

[https://howtomakeelectronicmusic.com/wp-
content/uploads/2012...](https://howtomakeelectronicmusic.com/wp-
content/uploads/2012/02/Using-Swing-In-Step-Sequencer-Full.jpg)

~~~
default-kramer
I'm curious, why do you say straight music is more dance-able? I have no
evidence, but my gut says it doesn't really make a difference - any dancer who
is good enough to use the 8th notes is probably good enough to handle straight
and swing.

Anecdotally, Montell Jordan's "This Is How We Do It" is one of the most
reliable floor-fillers that I know of, and that swings. If you want a more
recent example, "Can't Feel My Face" was huge for a while. (American
perspective here.)

~~~
21
I was just speculating, I have no evidence either.

But it's clear that most popular music is straight, so there must be some
underlying factor. EDM music, which is arguable the most dance-able music,
sounds very weird to me when you swing it.

BTW, I am talking about regular people "dancing", not professionals.

------
amagumori
i highly recommend looking into UK Garage / 2step if you're into swung dance
music. It's essentially the best qualities of 90's and early 00's R&B and D&B
put through a dance lens. To me, nothing else in music is more authentically
and beautifully 90s-early 00s. Pioneers of the genre such as El-B took the
concept of swing and ran with it from a modern electronically produced
perspective.

As an electronic musician I also have to say that UK garage producers are
absolute masters. It's very, very hard to make swung music that has the
qualities of "bump" and "flex" \- the prerequisites to a song that viscerally
makes you dance - on a computer. "Flex" refers to the way the swing-level
expands and contracts throughout a drum phrase. "Bump" refers to the way the
flex propels you into the kick and snare.

here's an example of a song by el-b with super tight swing. it's hard to
explain without having tried, how hard it is to produce something like this:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZ3KM5E8wl8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZ3KM5E8wl8)

another example:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlNNrXzi60o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlNNrXzi60o)

and finally, a 2step song, much straighter, but it encapsulates the sound of
an era and genre.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVycT8k0tjM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVycT8k0tjM)

------
olodus
I totally thought it would be an article about the old Java swing gui library,
but I think I like what it was actually about better.

------
biggieshellz
Meh. I feel like this article misses the point.

Swing is 3 against 2, metrically speaking, but it is also folklore, tradition,
and a tremendous amount of micro-information in where each note is placed
relative to the beat. The "cutting edge of jazz swing theory" video in the
article ticks off most of the boxes:

* There's micro-information in whether a note is ahead of, on top of, or behind the beat. * The swing ratio can vary, and it tends to straighten out at higher tempos. * Drummers tend to play at a higher swing ratio than soloists.

All that said, it's been said that jazz is the marriage of African rhythm and
European harmony, and that's not too far off. But the article neglects the
Africa/tradition part of it entirely. Search for "Africa" in that article and
you find one match. Search for "Black" and you find three matches, all in
regard to the color, not the race. But that's where it comes from, and that's
the context in which you need to understand it. Why are those patterns found
across so many drummers listed in the "cutting edge" video (Art Taylor /
Connie Kay / Billy Higgins / Elvin Jones / Tony Williiams / Carl Allen / Jeff
'Tain' Watts / Jack DeJohnette / Max Roach / Dennis Chambers)? It's because
they're coming out of a common tradition, speaking the same musical language.

The writer of the article seems to like swing music around the late '30s, and
claims that the rules fit well with that music because those people were
playing swing without the influence of bop, soul-jazz, rock and roll, and
other modern music. I would argue that the rules fit that period of music
better for a different reason. This is when it was _pop_ music, and when
simplified / whitened versions of it (Dorsey brothers / Glenn Miller / etc.)
were most common.

------
Tomte
Don't miss the video in the "So, what makes it swing?" section. I think this
might interest most HN readers here, since it's about measurements and trying
to objectify the "Swing feeling".

------
agumonkey
Swing is musician accounting for inertia modulation in the player / instrument
system. The stick / cymbal pair for instance, a cymbal swings, further strokes
will be different depending on when it happens (cymbal coming back or still
going ?). Energy waves between both and if the player play with the transfer
back and forth he can modulate the swing feel.

The ease of flow you can feel when listening to swing comes from the fact that
there's a lot of reuse, kinda like a tuning an antenna.

My 2 cents.

