
Would Chinese-style education work on British kids? - giles
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33735517
======
eastbayjake
It made me kind of sad when the British students preferred copying things from
a chalkboard. I tried to implement a flipped classroom -- 15 minutes of
"lecture" at the beginning, 25 minutes of group practice, 15 minutes of
individual practice, then a 5 minute formative assessment/quiz -- when I
taught chemistry in a low-income public high school in Mississippi. My
students were really disoriented at first and preferred the less mentally-
active work of copying notes or listening to a teacher... I actually had to
tell them not to copy everything off my 15 minute presentations because they
could just print it later or view it on their phones, and I'd rather they
actively engage with the material. Many complained that they'd rather get a
packet of notes to transcribe during class time.

The good news: by my second year of teaching, kids from the first year were
telling their friends how a flipped classroom takes work away from studying
notes and puts them into your classroom time. My students were more confident
when they practiced concepts in class then assessed their own knowledge with a
low-pressure quiz at the end of class. My second year I had students (and
their parents) fighting to be in my chemistry classroom instead of a 30-year
veteran's traditional classroom with 55 minutes of lecture.

Based on what we know about learning and cognition -- and with the way that
the internet and mobile technology is de-emphasizing the need for memorized
fact and emphasizing asking questions and performing creative problem solving
-- I don't know why we're looking towards rote learning models to educate a
21st century workforce.

~~~
alextgordon
Is it really normal for American high school teachers to lecture for the
entire period? No exercises, just note-taking?

I hazard to guess that the British students prefer copying things from a
chalkboard because it's a novelty and requires considerably less effort than
doing exercises. If they did it on a regular basis they'd quickly get bored.

~~~
yareally
Depends on the class. History tends to have a lot of lectures. Science
classes, math and English I don't recall as many (this was about 10 years
ago). Also varies by teacher and I would assume school.

~~~
eastbayjake
Math is probably the class that most easily follows this pattern: the teacher
demonstrates how to solve a category of problem, the entire class practices it
together with the teacher calling on students to provide answers, then after
students are confidently solving the problem together they try to solve them
independently -- a process that usually continues after class with homework
problem sets.

Science classes in higher-income schools often follow this method too --
present a problem/question, introduce some bit of science knowledge, then
investigate with a lab -- but low-income schools lack the resources to do lots
of labs and as a result it's a lot of copying vocab/notes and doing problem
sets that tend to be vocabulary-heavy.

~~~
yareally
Yeah, I think that sounds reasonable to me. I was thinking about my history
classes more and there was a decent amount of interaction, just my memory
about it was a bit fuzzy, since I haven't thought about the classes themselves
in some years.

It had a decent amount of q/a and discussion, but it's rather hard to escape
lectures in history. They didn't bother me though, since I had great history
teachers that knew their stuff and made the lectures themselves interesting
through anecdotes and personal experience. History was always my favorite
subject, even though I obtained a degree in computer science.

------
sandworm101
Funny. Some brits look up to the Chinese system to educate their kids, but
come time for university and every single Chinese parent would rather their
kid go the oxbridge route than any chinese school.

Perhaps this article should be more explicit in that it involves comparison
between CHinese practices and those of a subset of British schools. I went to
a british-style boys school, a rugby school. It was nothing like the one in
this article. We did plenty of memorization. We paid attention and worked hard
for many hours beyond what is expected of the kids in this article. By grade
12 I had actually read all the major Shakespeares, read them well enough to
have opinions and write papers. (First year university was a total walk in
comparison.) The brits need not go to china for inspiration.

~~~
random_2azkXJ
"every single Chinese parent would rather their kid go the oxbridge route than
any chinese school" \- citation needed!

The oxbridge (as in "the bridge of the ox", a very logical outcome from "the
ford of the ox" and "the bridge of the cam") are more of commercial
enterprises than teaching institutions, and the preference for them are first
and foremost the result of commercial advertising. The business model in here
is to attract a great mass of pupils, be very selective about it (in order to
have high-profile prospects), be very expensive (because the networking
happening there must worth the hassle), then selling the achievements of these
high-potenial strictly-preselected material to others as the results of its
own merit. The research, the eccentric curriculum, or any other quirk that
sets these institutions apart from others are just secondary. That is the
naked truth.

------
ausjke
Chinese education kills the real genius, but does make the ordinary kids a
skillful engineer(relatively), so the best kids still want to go overseas
while the rest can do math better than any other west countries after
repeatedly practice.

The USA education system does allow their top kids fly freely(which is really
a small percentage), however the demanding on the average kids are too little,
many kids gave up or drop out and could not find a decent job thereafter. No-
child-left-behind can only do so much. There is nearly no grit/hard-working
attitude in middle/high schools here at USA comparing to China.

Note 1: Not all Chinese students going overseas are top kids these days
anymore, in fact most of them are having a rich dad meanwhile they can not
stand up the fierce competition in Chinese schools. Note 2: The Chinese
education system(in that sense, the India's) produced lot of "good-enough"
engineers eager to fill up the H1B quota annually, those USA kids with the
same IQ ended up not being a STEM engineer most likely, which is considered
too nerdy or more, too hard for them. -- No pain, no gain.

~~~
tokenadult
I'll pull out one part of your comment to ask a question: you wrote,

 _The USA education system does allow their top kids fly freely(which is
really a small percentage)_

and I would like to ask, where does that happen? What place in the United
States allows the top kids to fly freely? I ask, because I interact online
most regularly with parents who have children identified as gifted children
through regional Talent Search programs or specialized summer mathematics
programs or the Davidson Institute for Talent Development.[1] I only very
rarely hear of "top kids" (by any reasonable definition of top kids) whose
parents report that the USA education system allows their children to fly
freely. I just looked at your Hacker News user profile to see if you identify
what country you are from. It is unusual enough here in the United States to
say "USA education system" rather than "U.S. education system" or "United
States education system" that I wonder whether you have ever experienced the
education system here in the United States during your own education. On my
part, I get the distinct impression that the United States education system
underperforms for all learners in its care,[2] although not as badly as, say,
Mexico's or India's.

[1] [http://www.davidsongifted.org/](http://www.davidsongifted.org/)

[2] [http://timssandpirls.bc.edu/timss2011/international-
results-...](http://timssandpirls.bc.edu/timss2011/international-results-
mathematics.html)

[http://educationnext.org/when-the-best-is-
mediocre/](http://educationnext.org/when-the-best-is-mediocre/)

~~~
Avshalom
So keep in mind this was a decade ago and I'm sure it's changed but when I was
in highschool in Florida you could go Dual-Enrollment and the district would
pay for any class and reimburse you for books. I went to college with my first
three semesters of college finished. While that was particularly open handed
many districts will at least pay tuition for what ever advanced classes you
can test into as long as it fits the curriculum (X english classes, Y math
classes...).

My local community college implies that sophmores and above (including home
schoolers) can take any 1000 level or above class free (although the
highschool gets veto power).

[http://www.cnm.edu/depts/outreach/dual-credit/dual-credit-
th...](http://www.cnm.edu/depts/outreach/dual-credit/dual-credit-the-best-
deal-in-town)

------
animefan
While China has a great and deep culture, I don't see a strong reason why the
UK should look to China for inspiration for its education system. The West
continues to do great things in every field including technology. I think that
the increasing representation of Chinese in technology is mainly due to the
fact that hard technical skills are much more transferable across language and
cultural barriers, than to any inherent advantage in China's education system.
And while it's great that the Chinese government wants to invest more in
cutting edge research, right now the most advances are still being made in the
West.

------
jasode
_> It is, however, abundantly clear to me that Chinese parents, culture and
values are the real reasons that Shanghai Province tops the oft-cited Pisa
tables rather than superior teaching practice._

Yes, there's a reason that the High Expectations Asian Father is a meme[1].
Even at home outside of school, the strict attitude of always being mindful of
schooling was also made famous by the Tiger Mom author.[2]

When kids have 2 parents apply pressure like that, an inept high school
football coach with a degree in General Studies could teach physics to Asian
students and it wouldn't matter.

[1][http://highexpectationsasianfather.tumblr.com/](http://highexpectationsasianfather.tumblr.com/)

[2][http://www.amazon.com/Battle-Hymn-Tiger-Mother-
Chua/dp/01431...](http://www.amazon.com/Battle-Hymn-Tiger-Mother-
Chua/dp/0143120581)

~~~
lukevdp
I agree. There is a lot of emphasis put on the education systems when the real
difference is the culture

------
sheepmullet
The top 20% of British kids do very well, academically and in the job market.
The problem is the other 80% and I'm not sure it's the fault of the schooling
system.

------
b6
Would it help children achieve higher scores on standardized tests? I find it
easy to believe it would. But does that actually help anyone?

Might some children prefer it over less regimented styles of education? I find
it easy to believe that some would, because in the Chinese style, it's clear
what they're supposed to be doing at any given moment, and clear what their
goal is (to achieve high scores). But does this actually help anyone? The
problem as I see it is that they are practicing in an unambiguous situation
when life itself is inherently ambiguous.

------
adwf
I went to a public school in England (ie. fee-paying) and it wasn't too
dissimilar from this. Hours were 9am-9pm for classes, two meals, afternoon
sport and evening study. Copying everything from the whiteboard was standard
for a lot of classes. The only major difference would be class sizes, which
were kept to 10-15 per lesson instead of 50.

Maybe they're really just discovering the benefits of a bit of hard work and
discipline.

Edit: I've also never really understood why British state schools let kids out
at 2-3pm. Why not just keep them til 6pm when their parents get off work? It
saves the parents huge trouble over childcare, whilst also having a
demonstrably better effect on their education.

------
SteveMilner
It is over 40 years since I left school. The most striking thing about the
programme is that that some of the children have learning difficulties. No,
they're not ESN, but lack manners, so they eat / drink / chatter / giggle in
class, and are astonished that this behaviour is regarded as unacceptable.
Tell them the rules, and if they unable to comply, exclude them so that they
don't distract others (teachers and pupils).

Then discuss philosophy of 'I hear, I forget; I see, I remember; I do, I
understand' etc.

------
walshemj
No because the reason China scores so high is

1 They cherry pick students. 2 The teachers in these specialised schools only
teach one subject for only 3 hours day.

------
stephengillie
This article is too short to really approach the question asked in its
headline. Instead, we get a glimpse at Chinese teachers in British classrooms.
The article's voice is a little unclear, but I guess it's written by one of
the students.

Edit: I had trouble telling that each section was written by a different
author.

~~~
pnathan
3 separate voices, actually. One by the headmaster, one by a student, and one
by a teacher. Each had very very different viewpoints.

------
tokenadult
A reader of this thread asked me off-forum to comment here. I've been reading
the comments posted earlier in this thread, and just finished reading the fine
article. I wonder how much background on the school and the teachers (both the
British teachers and the Chinese teachers) the full television program
provides. I felt that the article kindly submitted here teased with just a few
details and didn't provide a lot of context. For example, when the article
notes, "an experiment was carried out at the Bohunt School in Liphook," I
immediately wonder what kind of school that is compared to other schools in
Britain, especially when I see the headteacher of the British school say, "As
the weeks passed, thanks both to the support of Bohunt's pastoral staff and a
slight shift towards a teaching approach more recognisable to our pupils,
behaviour improved." Most schools here in the United States, and I think most
schools in Britain too, do not have a "pastoral staff," and maybe that school
and its students are unrepresentative of students in general in the English-
speaking world.

The point in the article that students have to be acculturated to what their
school expects is very well taken. Students at a school-within-a-school for
highly gifted students (a situation that exists in my local school district)
have to be especially brought on board a school culture that differs from
everyday school culture. And so it is for any school that introduces a change
in curriculum, and for any school enrolling students who used to live
elsewhere and attend other schools (a VERY common situation in the United
States, and a situation I experienced while growing up).

Several comments here talk about "copying" or "regimentation," but the fine
article points out that the Chinese teacher wanted to inductively lead
students through a proof of the Pythagorean theorem--something I have done for
much younger students here in the United States--while the British students
insisted on just being told applications of the theorem without having to
think about how the theorem is proved. A Minnesota Public Radio report just
yesterday, based on a recent Aspen Ideas Festival discussion, "Is Math
Important?"[1] includes statements that I think are factually incorrect about
comparisons between education in the United States and education in China, but
I have to agree with Professor Jo Boaler's statement that a mathematics lesson
in secondary school in China is anything but memorization--it is all about
students discovering mathematical ideas by pursuing a few hard problems each
day with group discussion. There is a whole book about what Americans don't
know about how elementary mathematics is taught in China[2] that is a good
read for any participant here on Hacker News.

To answer the question posed by the article title, "Not without a lot of
careful preparation, but it could possibly be an improvement for some students
in some British schools."

[1]
[http://www.mprnews.org/story/2015/08/03/mpr_news_presents](http://www.mprnews.org/story/2015/08/03/mpr_news_presents)

[2] [http://www.amazon.com/Knowing-Teaching-Elementary-
Mathematic...](http://www.amazon.com/Knowing-Teaching-Elementary-Mathematics-
Understanding/dp/0415873843)

[http://condor.depaul.edu/sepp/mat660/Askey.pdf](http://condor.depaul.edu/sepp/mat660/Askey.pdf)

~~~
thisrod
_Most schools here in the United States, and I think most schools in Britain
too, do not have a "pastoral staff,"_

The American schools I've seen did have such staff, but they called them
guidance counselors or something like that.

------
yellowapple
I'm assuming "no". If the asnwer were "yes", this headline wouldn't need to be
phrased interrogatively.

------
bhewes
Nothing says globalization like the swap ability of international teaching
styles.

------
pnathan
I had an extremely unusual k-12 education - homeschooled in a very rigorous
fashion the entire way. There was a very specific curricula, a hard start
time, along with specific hours for specific tasks. My mother has a bachelor's
degree and taught at an old-fashioned private school prior to my birth. Each
specific hour was for a particular subject, with some % dedicated to
lecture(ish), along with some % for seatwork. So even for homeschoolers, I was
unusual in this discipline and educator's background.

So. I judge that my education's implementation was neither "Chinese" nor
"American (British-ish?)" (I quote these words, because I don't know that they
are adequately representative). However, I think that the conceptual precepts
were much closer to the "Chinese" approach. Education and learning were
expected. For instance, it would have been completely inappropriate and
unacceptable for me to:

\- complain about clothing (I did not have clothing requirements - if I had
gone to a school with a uniform, so long as the clothing was functionally
adequate for the weather, it would not have been acceptable to moan about
fashion).

\- complain about having no say in my education. In time, I got the chance to
co-design my curriculum on the elective level, but not taking Math (as an
example) would have been unacceptable and not up for discussion.

\- Not doing assigned work. I was expected to complete the day's assignments.
Interestingly, my school day finished at around 2pm (started at 8), with the
rest of the day for assignments and my own time. The goal was understanding,
not memorization (beyond the obvious facts that need remembering).

\- complain about dullness. There was no conception that entertainment (i.e.,
fun) was part of the purpose of education. It was - in a hazy and unforced way
- my duty and obligation to learn. Learning was the entire orientation; if it
was dull, it was dull: sucking it up and moving on was the way to go.

A portion of how I was taught was entirely along the lines that the maths
teacher (Mr. Zou) delineated:

> . When I first introduced Pythagoras's theorem, I decided to let the
> students find the proposition, prove and apply the theorem. That process is
> an important feature of maths teaching in China.

> But a lot of students said they found it unnecessary to prove Pythagoras's
> theorem - knowing how to apply it was enough.

Understanding the essence of the problem was a key component of the situation.
Simply turning the math (or grammar, or history) crank and having an answer
falling out was not considered to be a "good" way of going, and to perform at
that level was to be only adequate. It was not the expected level - the
expectation was to understand the material enough to build the equation.
Learning in depth was _normative_ , not _unusual_. This is very important to
understand. I was _not_ pulled out of school because I was gifted and
talented. I was placed into homeschooling because my parents judged that the
public schools of the area were inadequate to deliver an adequate education,
which includes understanding the causes of the knowledge.

This expectation of in-depth understanding was then fed into the process of
curriculum selection and analysis as I shifted into "high school" grades. As I
prepared for college, my parents and I cooperated in building my coursework
and knowledge base. In this I believe we sharply diverged from the "Chinese"
model, as I was given broad freedom to learn on my own outside of the non-
elective areas.

Fundamentally, education in my youth years was part of the appropriate process
of growing up and becoming a fully formed adult. Not having a deep education
was simply out of the question.

I think - given my experience - that the "Chinese" have a much better handle
on how to educate. Let's dissect this -

> I'm used to speaking my mind in class, being bold, giving ideas, often
> working in groups to advance my skills and improve my knowledge.

The basic question here is - _are the student 's ideas worth hearing_ ? If the
student's ideas were _that_ good, perhaps they shouldn't be in the class. I
recall very distinctly group work/group grading in college. I did not go to
that class to be graded by my classmates - they were equally ignorant as I
was! I wanted to learn from someone who knew what they were doing! But this
also presupposes that the teacher also knows the subject adequately. Learning
doesn't _have_ to be unpleasant, but it's better to learn unpleasantly than to
remain blissfully ignorant.

~~~
sheepmullet
It looks like you were brought up with Western education and Chinese style
discipline. I had much the same education as you, sans the discipline. And my
father growing up had the discipline without the education.

So I find it a bit odd that you then say "I think - given my experience - that
the "Chinese" have a much better handle on how to educate."

Going through point by point:

\- complain about clothing

Discipline. Chinese.

\- In time, I got the chance to co-design my curriculum on the elective level

Education. Western.

\- Interestingly, my school day finished at around 2pm (started at 8)

Education. Western.

\- The goal was understanding, not memorization

Education. Western.

\- complain about dullness.

Discipline. Chinese.

> The basic question here is - are the student's ideas worth hearing ?

Actually, that is rather besides the point. Being able to discuss ideas, go
out on a limb, work well in groups, etc are important skills. Providing
feedback to the teacher is critical in a group setting. Even incorrect ideas
put forward by a student can get the other students to really think about the
topic.

~~~
pnathan
I would say, rather, that I was brought up on principles that emphasized
discipline, along with intellectual freedom and curiosity. The implementation
of this emphasized discipline as I was a young child, then shifting towards
freedom as I got old enough to have useful impact on curricula development.
Neither of those precisely map to the US or the Chinese norms.

