
Ask HN: Do I have to go through recruiters nowadays, how do you find new jobs? - minionslave
I posted on the Who wants to be hired thread last week. I have received a ton of recruiter spam, all saying &quot;We have the perfect position for you&quot;. I quickly realized they say that to everyone. I&#x27;d rather talk to a company directly.<p>What&#x27;s the procedure for getting a new job without going through external recruiters?
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Jemaclus
I despise recruiters with the fiery passion of a thousand suns, so I try to
avoid them as much as possible. That leaves me (and you) with a few viable
options:

1) Use a matching service like interviewing.io or TripleByte to get connected
directly with companies. (Effectiveness: Questionable but promising)

2) Use a job listing site like Indeed.com to find positions that you're
interested in applying to. (Effectiveness: It works, but is like throwing mud
on a wall to see what sticks -- hard and not very lucrative.)

3) Use Indeed / AngelList / whatever to find companies that are hiring, then
use LinkedIn or some other method to find the hiring manager directly. Email
them directly with your resume and cover letter (since it's effectively a
cold-call, make that cover letter damned impressive). (Effectiveness: works
great, in my experience)

4) Use your network. Email old bosses and coworkers and let them know you're
on the market. If you've left a good impression, they'll usually be more than
happy to do whatever they can to get you into good companies. (Effectiveness:
fantastic, assuming you have a network in the first place.)

There are tons of other ways, but those are the strategies I've used. In the
mean time, study up for your technical interviews. Good luck!

~~~
laxatives
The entire recruiter economy is an enormous conflict of interest. They are
like realtors. They are paid by commission and make significantly more money
based on quantity of hires, rather than quality. So they have no real
incentive to fight for you or help with your negotiations and a strong
incentive to be mildly dishonest or exaggerate without burning bridges. This
is terrible for both you and your employer (but most importantly you). They
just want to fill as many positions as quickly as possible. There's possibly
even a incentive to hiring folks that quit/leave in a short period of time to
increase the number of opportunities that need to be filled and people that
want to be placed.

~~~
mmanfrin
I also feel that the recruiting industry leeches off of developers -- if
companies are paying recruiting firms $30k per developer (with some companies
I've seen having about a 1year turnover rate), then that's 30k that is
essentially coming out of my salary.

~~~
rev_bird
That sounds right on first glance, but I wonder how much money companies would
spend internally doing the same work the recruiter is doing. If it was THAT
much cheaper, I'd think the recruiting industry would be in trouble. I think
that $30k might be gone either way.

------
rubidium
Here's how I did it.

I emailed any technical contact I could find at all the interesting companies
in my city. I was following up all these emails with phone calls when I could
get a number.

I found a blog article interviewing one of the researchers (call him Bob) at
"Company A".

I sent this email that eventually led to my job:

Hello Bob, I've been researching [Company A] and came across this article from
[BLOG SITE] that featured some of your work. I'm quite impressed with your
assessment of the need for better data analysis tools in the [AREA OF
RESEARCH], and the work you get to do in that area interests me. I found from
your linkedin profile that part of your current research with the Company A
Research Group is on [technical area I talk about below].

My recent PhD work at [University] involved a number of overlaps with your
current work, both in technology ([short example]) and modeling physical
processes ([short example]).

I am now looking for industry jobs in [City]. The Company A Research Group may
be a good fit, but first I would like to learn more about what you do. Can you
meet for coffee to discuss?

Best regards, -[my name]

He responded and asked for a resume. After further conversations, it turned
out they didn't have room in their group (headcount freeze in their
department) but we found another group at the company that needed someone with
my skills. I was then "the guy Bob knows" during the interviews (which helped)
and landed the job.

------
codegeek
Good Recruiters are out there but they are like needle in a haystack. It is
tough to know good ones but when they do come, make sure they are in your
rolodex

Having said that, I have found a couple of ways of finding jobs that I want:

Approach 1. Decide a company that you want to work for. Go to their careers
page if they have one and then find a relevant position. Then go to Linkedin
and search for "HR <company name>" in linkedin and try to find an HR contact
in that company. Send them a short email that you are interested in that
specific position. You never know and they may just connect you to the right
hiring manager (has happened to me). BUT the trick is that you need to write
effective and precise email. Don't send generic "I need a job" type of email.

Approach 2: Go to sites like indeed.com and shortlist a list of relevant jobs
you like. They may not provide a direct HR/hiring manager contact but it could
be a recruiter. That's ok for starters. Now take some of the keywords from
that job posting and run a google search on the exact words. You may be
surprised to get a direct listing from a company's career page. Now go back to
Approach 1. (Done this as well)

Approach 3: The "good" recruiter can be very useful if you have found one.
Then just go through them as it will be worth your time (done this as well)

Rinse and repeat.

------
peteretep
Hi, I'm a recruiter.

Look for job aggregators like Adzuna, Indeed, etc, which scrape all jobs on
the web. When you see results, it should be easy to work out which jobs are
posted by recruiters, and which have been posted directly by the company.

In my (massively biased) experience, you are better off applying for a
position when you've been put forward by a recruiter:

* The recruiter knows what the client's salary range is, and wants you to get paid as much as possible (as the role is commission based) - they'll be able to make sure you're getting a good deal out of the client

* The recruiter is a professional sales person, and will chase the hiring manager for feedback, technical interviews, etc etc, in a way that as a direct candidate you'll come across as too pushy if you do yourself

* The recruiter will genuinely have a good view of other similar jobs you may not have found that you'd be a good match for.

* The recruiter will get much much more candid feedback about you than you'll ever get directly from the client

... and a whole bunch of other factors.

~~~
ohitsdom
> wants you to get paid as much as possible (as the role is commission based)

I think recruiters can be great, but don't put too much stock into this point.
Recruiters are similar to realtors- yes, they get more if you get more, but
they would rather close the deal then to risk no deal at all over a few more
thousand dollars.

~~~
Chris2048
Also, their relationship with the client (employer) is also important. If they
can whittle down how much a client (employee/contractor) is willing to get,
they will be who the employer calls first next time.

Also, if they know the budget, they may know how small it is too. If they are
no other jobs, they may try to convince you to take whatever's in their book.

------
wtvanhest
I am not a software engineer, but I am in finance with a solid resume. I say
this because I am still a desirable candidate, but I probably receive about
1/10th the recruiter mail that you receive.

I am interviewing today with a great company, and meeting with another great
company on Friday and I have a bunch of leads in the pipeline for next week.
Here is my advice:

1) Figure out what companies and specific roles you want to work for.

2) Make sure you have your resume tailored to those roles and make sure you
know how to answer the technical questions related to those openings.

3) Reach out to 1st, and 2nd connections to companies that interest you and
ask to grab a coffee to learn more about the role.

4) If you are personable and seem like a good fit, they will ask what you are
interested in and they will help make introductions. When possible, ask to
meet someone else in the company closer to the role you are interested in. For
example, if your friend works in sales, but you are in engineering, ask for an
intro to someone in engineering. This is important because that other person
will be better at vetting you.

5) You will enter the formal interview process with people already liking you
and wanting you to succeed. You just walk in, have a good time and answer the
technical questions.

6) Negotiate an offer.

6) When you get there, be a good person, help people out, build relationships
and do great work. 5 years down the road, you will have more connections and
more opportunities.

Don't make the mistake of letting leads come to you. That is how you end up in
so/so companies and situations. Go after what you want.

------
doeshelooklikea
I'm a recruiter I can tell you all that I work my ass of to not be like 98% of
everyone else in the business. Thankfully, I just have to not be a knob and I
generally stand out.

Most agency recruiters are a pain in the ass because they are not actually
recruitment professionals. Sounds odd, I know, but having worked for a few
firms I can tell you that many will hire SALES people rather than folks who
actually want to recruit, let alone have a clue as to what the f*ck it is.

If you want to try and figure if a recruiter is going to be a tool or not,
look them up or ask them what their job is. Do the do business development and
account management as well as recruit? If so, ask them which half the like
better. Should be a neat chat.

Bigger recruitment companies will always claim to be HR Consulting/Service
firms in all their media and PR propaganda, when internally, they hammer home
that they are sales companies first. I worked for one of the largest
recruitment firms in the world and that is EXACTLY how they operate.

Small/mid-sized agencies tend to offer a better candidate experience because
their staff aren't focused on KPIs and arbitrary activities to keep their
bosses off their backs. Instead, those firms just care about closing business
and doing it well so the big firms don't kick the shit out of them.

In general, most recruiters are shit. I've been headhunted more than once and
man oh man has it been painful. But I've engaged in the process because the
opportunity at hand was worth the nonsense. Not pursuing an opportunity
because a recruiter is an idiot is cutting your nose to spite your face.

~~~
baron816
I've met with some recruiters in the past (when I was looking for an
engineering role) and it was a total waste of time. I got the sense that they
just brought me in to see where I had already interviewed so they could get
leads on who was hiring. I am wrong to think that, or do you know of
recruiters who do that?

~~~
doeshelooklikea
If I had to guess, I'd imagine that wasn't the only reason they brought you
in, just that they sucked obtaining those details in a way that wasn't overt
and/or greasy.

But, yeah, recruiters definitely do that.

If a recruiter wants to bring you in for an interview, they had better have a
job for you. If they can't tell you about the job in any substantive way let
alone tell you who the client is then I'd say they're full of shit and don't
bother. I can count on one finger the number of times I couldn't say who that
client was at that point (psycho client).

SOMETIMES, and I do this, I will ask someone to meet even though we don't have
a job (at that moment) that's well suited for them. I'll do it because they're
awesome as a person and professional and because they are looking for work in
a core business of ours. But I will tell folks as much, and most are
interested in meeting and chatting.

------
ChuckMcM
One of the actual uses for LinkedIn.

Generally you probably want to work for people you like and respect. If you
know some people like that, then finding out how to reach them on LinkedIn is
a good way to let them know you are interested in working with them.

Sometimes they won't be interested in working with you, its a fact of life and
you have to let that go. Sometimes they are open to the idea but they don't
have any budget. And sometimes they will get you interviewed and move you over
right away.

If you are in the "any job but this one" mode, you are at a disadvantage. If
you don't know what you want to be doing then people will have a harder time
knowing if you would work out well in their position. Its painful when there
is a job available but you know it isn't what you really want to be doing, do
you suck it up and work there because its a job? do you turn them down?
Depending on your financial status it can be a very tough call.

When folks ask me "should I look for a new job?" I have two pieces of advice
regardless, one is that you should always be considering new opportunities,
and two you should think about what you jobs you like doing while you are not
under pressure (say being unemployed) because it helps you be more honest with
yourself on what you like and don't like.

Recruiters can sometimes get your name in front of a manager at a company you
want to work for when you don't know anyone there. But generally their value
is more to hiring managers than the people they represent.

~~~
joezydeco
I've left my LinkedIn profile open for this very reason.

It's also given me another axis on the graph. I'll routinely get email from a
recruiter about a position, which I'll ignore because I'm either happy where I
am, the job isn't a total fit, or you see the typical signals that their comp
is out of whack.

Then, a week or two later, I'll get _another_ email about the same job from a
_different_ recruiter. Now I know the target company is having some trouble.
Are they flailing about? Are they using multiple recruiters for some reason?
Pay too low? Hiring criteria impossibly high? Is the place a black hole for
developers?

Now I have more information to work with.

~~~
garysieling
Or the recruiters found a public listing and are trying to insert themselves
in the process. Periodically I get emails from recruiters that are "I have a
great candidate for your open position..."

------
vinceguidry
I like to go through a recruiter because I hate managing a job search myself.
I build up relationships with four or five recruiters, and they simply send me
opportunities, and then I just talk to them and go on interviews. I do not
have to follow up or devote any conscious attention at all to the process.

Corporate hiring is a massive shit show and I consider recruiters to be an
incredibly useful sanity saving device. People that want to deal with
corporations directly, I just have to ask, why in the world would you want to
do that? So annoying.

Imagine you worked in any other profession than coding. Having someone else
manage your job search is an unimaginable luxury. When I talk to my non-coding
friends, and they ask how many hours I've devoted to a job search, they're
amazed and jealous when I tell them about my recruiter-enabled workflow.

------
klenwell
How common is it for recruiters to "inject" themselves into the process? I ask
this for a couple reasons.

I interviewed for a position a while back where the person interviewing me at
the end asked, "What firm sent you again? Was it Firm A?" when I had been sent
by someone with Firm B. I'll also get contacted by recruiters from different
firms for the same position.

There have also been a couple cases recently where I've been submitted for a
position by a recruiter, interviewed with a company, and got a pass or didn't
hear back at all. And then I'll see the position show up a couple weeks later
on a site like StackOverflow Careers. I got the impression that a recruiter
jumped on an opening they came across and just kind of threw me in there and
the company hiring decided they weren't getting much in return for the
potential money they'd be laying out. I was pretty well qualified for one of
these positions, so I wondered if they wouldn't have been more enthusiastic if
there hadn't been a recruiter between us.

My conclusion after about a year of working with a number of recruiters in my
area (Southern California) is that the industry is dominated by a few big
firms (I refer to CyberCoders as the McDonald's of recruiters, but that may be
being too generous) and has a lot of turnover. I suspect they have most their
success placing more junior developers in less critical let's-get-this-seat-
filled kind of positions. I've come across a few that I would call real
professionals. Unfortunately, they always seems to be focused in areas or
locations that don't line up with my own.

I still look at a number of recruiters emails each week. But now I only
respond if I am convinced that they have an actual working relationship with
the company they claim to be representing and aren't just trying to win some
race against the rest of the rodentalia out there.

I also put together a page on my wiki for Recruiters to which immediately I
refer them any time I am contacted:

[http://klenwell.com/is/Recruiters](http://klenwell.com/is/Recruiters)

This has been helpful in quickly filtering out the most callow practitioners.

~~~
peteretep

        > I got the impression that a recruiter jumped on an opening
        > they came across and just kind of threw me in there and the
        > company hiring decided they weren't getting much in return
        > for the potential money they'd be laying out. I was pretty
        > well qualified for one of these positions, so I wondered if 
        > they wouldn't have been more enthusiastic if there hadn't
        > been a recruiter between us.
    

I mean, I can't speak for _all_ situations, but generally the costs are
accounted for differently, and unless the company is absolutely cash-strapped,
they just weren't that interested in you.

    
    
        > But now I only respond if I am convinced that they have
        > an actual working relationship with the company they
        > claim to be representing
    

In the EU they're legally required to be upfront with you about this.

------
zpoley
I've also received a ton of recruiter spam, but leave my profile on LinkedIn
as other's have mentioned to see what happens. The worst part right now, is
how untargetd most inbound recruiter cold-calls are - for skills that I don't
have or don't want to acquire, in locations I wouldn't even consider, or at
companies that I have no interest in.

We're working on this problem at Paysa [1], trying to enable employees to find
and be alerted about relevant jobs that match your skillset as they become
available, in your desired locations, and meeting the pay requirements that
you specify.

We're also interested in helping to solve the matching and communication
problem, by putting candidates directly in contact with companies that they're
interested to work with - in positions that actually match their skillsets,
pay their market value, and further their careers.

Check out our salary and experience based jobs search at
[https://www.paysa.com/jobs](https://www.paysa.com/jobs), and sign up to
receive job alerts as we find new jobs that match your skills/experience and
meet your target criteria - around location, and salary expectations.

The comments in this thread are really interesting. I'd love to hear any more
feedback/thoughts about what we at Paysa could do to provide the best job
matching and communication experience from the candidate side. Feel free to
email at zach at paysa.com any time.

[1] [https://www.paysa.com](https://www.paysa.com)

~~~
home_boi
You got me. I thought this was going to be a legit post instead of an
advertisement until the third sentence in.

------
m0th87
I know most job boards are pretty noisy, but there are a few that are really
good. Depending on the city/industry you're interested in, there's likely a
niche board - including HN itself.

I'm at The Muse (YC W12) - I think we have a pretty good selection of jobs as
well, especially in NYC/SF:
[https://www.themuse.com/jobs?job_category%5B%5D=Engineering&...](https://www.themuse.com/jobs?job_category%5B%5D=Engineering&filter=true)

Feel free to email me too if you're looking for something specific, I'm happy
to help. yusuf @ our site's domain.

------
pc86
Disclaimer: I've used recruiters to find every job I've had other than the
first one.

> _I 'd rather talk to a company directly._

Why? What benefit do you get from that? You're not like to negotiate a higher
salary than you would without the recruiter, and you're not in a better
position to get hired either (over the total spend of an employee's lifespan
the recruiter commission is a drop in the bucket). Some companies I've worked
for place candidates they receive through external recruiters _higher_ than
self-selected candidates because they've already presumably gone through some
sort of screening process.

A good recruiter will understand what you're looking for and won't put crap in
front of you. That doesn't mean you'll get the perfect hand-picked job, and
they'll probably challenge you on some of your assumptions, but if you're a
.NET developer they're not going to try to get you to take a PHP job.

But here's how I generally go about looking for a new job:

1\. Email bosses I've had who I would want to work for again and let them know
I'm on the market. Just a quick "Hi _______, I wanted to let you know I'm
ready for a change from my current environment. If you hear of anything I'd
love to take you out to lunch and discuss the opportunity." LPT: They will buy
the lunch 95 out of 100 times :)

2\. Email recruiters I've used in the past and send them an updated Word
resume, salary/commute requirements, and what I want v. my current job
(bigger, smaller, different sector, whatever).

3\. If I'm very gung ho I will go on Ladders, Indeed, etc but the above
typically hasn't taken very long to find something.

~~~
balls187
> Why? What benefit do you get from that? You're not like to negotiate a
> higher salary than you would without the recruiter, and you're not in a
> better position to get hired either (over the total spend of an employee's
> lifespan the recruiter commission is a drop in the bucket).

Misaligned incentives.

The recruiter is incented to get you to accept the position. Their
compensation isn't tied to maximizing your happiness, job fit, or salary.
While every recruiter I've worked with wanted to see me find the _right_ fit,
ultimately they wanted to find a position that was good enough that I would
accept. An extra $15k in your salary is not material enough to the
compensation of a recruiter.

~~~
pc86
Especially in tech, a recruiter's #1 incentive is almost certainly to foster a
good relationship so that you come back to them when you want to leave. With
people moving jobs every 1.5-3 years, a recruiter who consistently places
people in positions where they are unhappy and underpaid is not going to make
very much money 5 years from now.

~~~
balls187
With that same logic, a recruiter isn't also incented to get you a dream-job
either, lest you never re-enter the job search market.

Personally, I don't have a problem with recruiters. My skills are marketable
enough that it doesn't hurt to have someone else looking to place me in a job.

------
Colin_M
I'm constantly being contacted through LinkedIn by recruiters who clearly
haven't actually read my profile - they'll say they've read it and then say
that they think I'd be perfect for the Senior Developer position they're
hiring for, when my profile clearly has me as a student looking for entry
-level positions. When I respond, or when they call me, I tell them my actual
qualifications and they say that they'll definitely contact me in the future.
To date I have not heard from a single one of them again.

~~~
wyclif
I get exactly the effect you mention here all the time from LI: recruiter spam
from people who tell me they've read my (junior dev) profile, _then_ offer me
Lead Dev positions for their young company, while at the same time saying the
requirements for the role are 10 years of "progressive software dev
experience" (which I don't have and is definitely apparent from my profile).

It's baffling. Don't tell me you've read my resume if you clearly haven't.
These people are not helping themselves by blasting a canned message to those
who match whatever keyword they're filtering for.

------
OpenDrapery
I'm really surprised that more companies aren't open about their intangibles
that set them apart. Why can't I search for jobs based on location, dress
code, office layout? Because I want to wear jeans, have a short commute, and
sit in a private office. Or at least not a godforsaken open office layout.
When it comes to internal line of business apps, let's face it, most of the
work is the same. It's the individuals that you'll be working with +
aforementioned intangibles that differentiate.

------
white-flame
If you get an email about an interesting position from a headhunter that
doesn't seem to be very knowledgable, you can often google parts of the job
description and find the direct posting from the client. You don't have any
agreement with the recruiter, so you're free to take whatever path to
application that you choose.

It's the same thing with searching listings on Dice or wherever, especially if
you see multiple organizations posting for the same job.

I simply don't see any value add to 99% of the recruiters out there. So many
of them just keyword match and are unqualified to actually vet the candidates,
and give the clients terrible lists. A company's own HR department can post
the listings onto Dice or do LinkedIn searches just like the headhunters do,
for FAR lower cost than going through an organization.

I have zero problem with bypassing the headhunters via a bit more web
searching.

------
PaulHoule
A counterpoint to that is that if a company is hiring a recruiter they are
serious about hiring somebody.

There are some places where they bring in a huge number of candidates,
interview them, and then never hire anyone. For instance, at a local Uni, they
had a position open for 2.5 yrs.

If there is a recruiter involved there is a sense of urgency at least.

~~~
peteretep

        > is that if a company is hiring a recruiter they are
        > serious about hiring somebody
    

Perhaps. It doesn't cost a company anything to engage a recruiter if they
don't place any of the candidates.

~~~
garysieling
That is true, but it does mean there is an interested contact at the company.
Compare to places like Indeed that scrape listings and have no way to tell if
a position has been filled.

------
untog
I also absolutely despise recruiters, after having deleted my LinkedIn profile
and answering every e-mail with "please remove me from your database" I think
I'm finally free of the spam.

When I am looking for a new job, I try to think about where I actually want to
work. One of the core issues I have with recruiters is that I am _a developer_
to be placed in _a development role_ , when in reality I have a set of wants
and needs in a job that I'm sometimes not even aware of myself until I read a
description and see the part that sticks out like a sore thumb to me. So, my
advice is don't go looking for any old job, find the company/companies you'd
like to work for and check what vacancies they have. If none, pay attention to
what events etc. people from that company go to and make a point of meeting
them.

------
googletazer
Googling "the name of the company you're interested in + careers" usually does
that. Or you can go on linkedin and search for internal recruiters from that
company, but you'll be wasting time.

~~~
mdorazio
Agreed on the wasting time part. I've actually had significantly better
response rates from companies when going through a recruiter instead of
applying directly to the position on the website/linkedin/whatever. At least
with a recruiter you get someone with an active interest in getting your
resume in front of a hiring manager, as opposed to your application
disappearing into the sea of 100+ applicants vying for keyword supremacy.

~~~
StavrosK
Your comment seems to be contradicting itself. You say that looking for a
recruiter is wasting time, but a recruiter is the best choice. Which one do
you mean?

~~~
sosborn
The reference to wasting time was about internal recruiters. OP is advocating
for the use of external recruiters.

~~~
StavrosK
I see, thank you.

------
jbob2000
The key with recruiters is to find one that is like you. Read their messages
and if they say something that "hits on something" for you, then go with that
one. Trust your gut!

The benefit of a recruiter is that you won't have to do the whole "meet for
coffee" thing, where the company does an initial check to make sure you don't
have any crazy red flags. With a recruiter, you "meet for coffee" once, he
vets you (or tells you you have a big red flag), and then does your leg work.

A recruiter is also your negotiator. The money they make is dependant on your
salary, so it's in their best interest to get you the highest salary possible.
I suck at negotiating, so I really appreciate this aspect of recruiters.

And if you picked the right recruiter and they are open with you, they can
really help cut through the bullshit that are most job postings. They'll say
things like "This posting says X, but I talked to the CTO and he really just
needs someone to take a functional spec and build an interface out of it".

Without a recruiter, you'll need your wits about you, lest you end up being
deceived by a flowery job posting. And you'll need to have confidence and a
firm understanding of your abilities so you can negotiate a good salary.
You'll have to pour through job sites and you'll submit the same application
form over and over and over... It's tiring.

------
katpas
Find a company that you want to work for and then go on the site and read
through the company blog. Hopefully those posts will be authored by someone
and not just the 'company'. Then find that person on social media
(twitter/google/linkedin) and use that to reach out to them via email or
twitter (not everyone reads their linkedin because of the spam) referencing
something interesting they've been working on. That's an effective way to get
an 'in' if you don't have a network there already.

Also find out if they're hosting any events or speaking at any and attend. The
process is a lot easier once you've actually met someone who works there.

Though I'm a developer now I got my last job in Sales/VC when I went to see
the founder speak at an event, he intro'd me to the hiring manager who
rejected me initially as I didn't have a start-up network (the job was finding
start-ups deal-flow for funding). I got that job as I said I could create a
network in 3 days and proved it.

[https://medium.com/tech-london/not-a-hacker-or-a-hipster-
how...](https://medium.com/tech-london/not-a-hacker-or-a-hipster-how-i-got-my-
first-start-up-job-922399a7dfbb#.j64iauh0e)

I agree with you about the spam. I've been gradually disabling my Linkedin as
a result.

------
squeekwull
I'll throw in my recent experience:

Rewind 2 years, looking for a more-legit DB dev job, coming out of a hybrid
client-facing analytical role, with somewhat light dev work.

Resume is up in all the usual spots (Indeed, Dice, etc) get a call from a Tech
recruiter asking if I was interested in a position paying nearly 2x what I was
making. Jumped on it, and less than 24 hours later I was hired. I've come to
see now that that was a HUGE red flag. The interviews were non-technical,
among many other things.

Fast forward to this last month, workplace is horriffic, no process, no
management, all the worst things. But I do have 2 more years exp in DB dev, so
it's time to start looking again.

Put resume back up on the usual sites, this time I also put it up on a
smaller, more focused site here in CO: builtincolorado.com which is aimed at
start-up and post-start-up IT jobs.

Had a few interviews through companies I found there. Tons of calls/emails
from recruiters, nothing catches my eye. Found a company thru BiC, and they go
through a recruiter for a lot of their tech screening.

This recruiter is completely different than the previous one. Actual
assessment testing, recruiters who've working in the field for years. Process
took about 5-6 weeks.

So all in all, recruiters aren't always bad, but many are. And like some have
pointed out, many have conflicts of interest in trying to just fill positions.
The company I was hired by only uses them for tech screening, and doesn't to
CTH, which I think helps lessen the conflict of interest, and only uses this
recruiting company because they bring quality candidates. The moment they
cease providing that, I don't doubt they'd use another screener or do it all
themselves.

------
MrFoof
Here's a question for the recruiters in this thread: When someone is rejected
for being _" too senior for the role"_, what are the actual reasons?

I ask this as someone who's been dealt that card 10 times in the past few
months. I've got a good idea as to what the actual reasons might be, but
looking for confirmation. Thanks.

------
Communitivity
This is strange advice, but the best advice I can give: don't be looking for a
job - instead look to help interesting people, to get to know them, and to
establish lasting relationships.

These people will get to know you, will find out about jobs you might like way
before the recruiters do, or before they are posted on job sites, sometimes
even before they're announced. They'll know, and want, to let you know about
the jobs too, and you'll do the same for them.

This strategy has worked very well for me, and I've built a network of amazing
friendly people in the process.

The trick to this strategy is to always be connecting (nod to Glengarry Glen
Ross there), before you ever are in need of a job. If you are in need of one
and haven't done that, then I'd advise like others have here and try to
leverage what network you have.

------
brettlangdon
Disclaimer: I am a software engineer at Underdog.io.

There are a lot of platforms nowadays that help to remove the "middleman" of
external recruiters. Underdog.io, Hired, Vettery, InterviewJet, and others.
These platforms typically are working to connect companies and candidates
together directly by removing the "find and apply to each company
individually" type approach. Instead they accept candidate applications, put
them through their own internal approval process, and then, if selected,
present them to companies to then make the decision if they want to talk to
the candidates directly. In my opinion is approach is a much nicer and less
stressful process for candidates.

~~~
peteretep

        > Instead they accept candidate applications, put them
        > through their own internal approval process, and
        > then, if selected, present them to companies to then
        > make the decision if they want to talk to the
        > candidates directly
    

So ... they're recruiters then?

EDIT: Looking at their website, it's a recruitment agency with some small
amount of candidate selection automation built in.

~~~
brettlangdon
Yeah, sometimes products like these try not to market themselves as recruiters
or agencies. When really they usually fill a similar role for companies,
providing them with candidates for open positions. Some offer slightly
different value than hiring an agency, but the role they play for a company is
usually that of a recruiter/agency.

I think what is most important for candidates is that finding a new job is
really hard and takes a lot of work, and utilizing as many options as you can
to find the right job.

This also goes for companies as well, finding the right candidate for a job is
hard and they should utilize as many options as possible.

------
blairanderson
It is a numbers game.

You will be falsely rejected from some companies.

You will be falsely accepted from some companies.

I got my current job by applying on their jobs page.

------
h1srf
A lot of people here are harping on ineffective recruiters but it really
depends on the industry. As a programmer in finance, pretty much no one posts
job openings. Sell-side may but buy-side definitely doesn't. Using your
network or going through a recruiter are the only real avenues to finding a
job in this industry. Outside of new college grads, I've never met anyone that
was hired from applying for a job directly through a company's site.

------
quaffapint
I saw a job listed by a third-party recruiter that sounded interesting.
Problem is they won't give me more information until I meet with them, which
would take an hour+ train ride, missing work, and expense. This isn't even the
hiring company just some random job board like recruiting company. I tried
googling around for the company itself, but don't have enough to go on. Anyone
run into this?

------
sebringj
There are good recruiters but they tend to be the ones that are working
directly for the said company and are paid via a placement fee one-time or
simply salaried. The worst ones tend to be the middle-man recruiting firm that
claims to be a tech firm and just takes hourly off the top and has no
technical understanding of anything. That's like having two bosses where the
recruiting firm is not involved enough to even know what's going on from your
perspective and is just there to annoy you with bro speak. There is no value
there other than the initial placement. I hope there is a general revolt to
that among tech workers as we don't need this and it hurts the companies
hiring through them as the workers will not want to stay in that situation
long term. My friends from India seem to have to put up with the worst ones
imaginable.

I use LinkedIn as a self-advertising tool explicitly listing I am a consultant
corp-to-corp which definitely reduces the amount of bullshit.

------
GordyMD
CTO of Workshape.io here - we are a hiring platform for software engineers
that's primary focus is matching developers to opportunities based on your
passions and how you want to spend your time in your next role. When you match
with a position you interface directly with someone at the company without any
mediating through recruiters. Added bonus: there is no need for uploading your
resume/CV!

With 2 of the founders being developers we can relate to the level of
recruiter spam in this space and so we created Workshape.io to cut through the
noise and make meaningful intorductions between developer and company based on
shared requirements.

We have about 200 postings on the site right now spread across the globe, but
mainly concentrated in Europe. That said though, we do cater for people
seeking remote work + relocation so if you fall under that remit then you may
find us even more useful.

Would love for you to check us out and would welcome any feedback.

------
probinso
I have found that most sites that promise matching to many possible positions
have a two way signal-noise problems. You are likely to get too many
recruiters; and companies are likely to get too many applicants.

1) Find a conference that videos presentations in a domain that you are
interested in. Apply to companies that represent speakers for topics that you
are interested in. (also gives you material to talk about in interview)

2) As you find interesting companies, select the ones that you have never
heard of, and find them on sites like linkedin. Use tool to find similar
companies (this is useless for large and well known companies).

3) Of the 'match maker' sites I've used, Craigslist is surprisingly good (this
may be location specific). Some of my most interesting interviews were from
random craigslist jobs.

I would be interested in knowing companies' strategies for handling the flood
of applicatants to "HN: Who's Hiring"

------
edwcar13
Recruiters are probably the worst thing on the planet. Because besides
interviewing with them, giving them all your info, you still have to do all
the communication with the company. I recommend this, recruiters are kind of
an evil you have to live with. So allow yourself one recruiting company that
has a good bearing in the area. I.e. you meet them in an office that they own
and not at a star bucks because it's a one man show.

Then uses sites like indeed.com, venturefizz.com, or apply directly to the
company. Use hired.com if you got a nice fancy resume for them to show off,
but avoid it if you are strictly entry level.

The troublesome part is that only recruiting companies can get you in to
startups that are still in stealth mode or too small to hire someone just for
recruiting and hr.

------
emilburzo
Shameless plug: I made a search frontend for the monthly "Who is hiring?"
threads that are here on HN

[https://hnjobs.emilburzo.com/](https://hnjobs.emilburzo.com/)

It might help you in finding some favorable leads.

------
kinai
Just write to the companies you find interesting. I once got a job offer just
because I mailed a in depth review/my thoughts to some CTO (I was not even
looking for a job). Rare but happens + you stick out

------
drelihan
Call up your friends and tell them you are looking for a new gig. Your peers
will likely make better matches and more meaningful intros to companies you'd
actually want to work for than recruiters.

------
sharemywin
Interviews can be a little easier for contracting because there's a 6-12 month
interview called the contract. If you work with the right recruiting company I
think it can work out pretty good.

------
mocko
In the UK there's something seriously wrong with the IT jobs market. On the
job sites (TotalJobs is my go-to example) literally 99% of DevOps positions on
any given day are being advertised through recruitment agencies. I was forced
to deal with them for years and the majority are either incompetent or shady.
I wrote an essay on this ([https://mocko.org.uk/b/2015/10/14/dont-feed-the-
beast-the-gr...](https://mocko.org.uk/b/2015/10/14/dont-feed-the-beast-the-
great-tech-recruiter-infestation/)) a few months ago detailing some of the
appalling behaviour I've seen from recruitment agencies on the London tech
scene and in the ensuing HN debate people raised equally harrowing examples of
their own.

What's wrong with this? Well, from my perspective it's now basically
impossible to land a job without either knowing the people hiring (i.e.
networking, something we nerds are bad at) or lining the pockets of some
talentless parasite who's found a way to insert himself into a high-value
transaction.

The "only work with the ones you like" argument people often respond with
completely misses the point. I believe it's based upon a misapprehension of
the dynamic - nerds see "agent" in their job title and assume something like a
literary agent, someone with incentives aligned with their own who'll pimp
them around a variety of potential employers. The truth, however, is that
agents aggressively pursue companies for leads (I've been on the hiring side
too and had dozens of calls a day) and some actively threaten companies ("use
us or we'll poach all your staff") into using their services. The social
engineering they use to navigate the corporate phone system to reach decision
makers can be quite ingenious. Companies with the backbone to say no are sadly
rare, so from the the applicant's side if you see a job advertised and if you
want it, you have no choice but to to kiss the agent's ass for an introduction
to the employer.

This rent-seeking behaviour generally nets the agent a sum equivalent to the
first few months of the applicant's salary or 10-20% of their contract rate
for as long as they stay there. The only real service the agent offers in
return for this is spamming nerds who they'd like to apply (as happened to the
OP) and weeding out obviously bad applicants to save the employer's time.

Since writing that essay I've flat-out refused to have anything to do with
recruitment agencies. Internal recruiters are fine (hey, if you're hiring a
lot that's totally a specialised job) but I take the use of a recruitment
agency as a sign that an employer either 1) gave in to an agency's aggressive
sales tactics or 2) has a reputation so poor that putting their name on job ad
actively discourages the best candidates.

In short - most recruitment agencies (at least on the London scene) are
dishonest, greedy, target-driven parasites. They aren't your friend and the
more you feed these people the worse the market gets.

Just say no.

~~~
SinomaSo
I have to agree here. I flat out refuse to use recruiters in London because my
experience with them was really bad. I once was put through an interview
process through a recruiter. I did all interviews with this company and they
were happy with me. After each interview the recruiter called me and asked me
what kind of questions I was getting. It turns out he was betting on another
horse to succeed as I found out later. Another guy was on the race for the
same job and the recruiter was feeding him all the questions before he got to
the interview. He must have pitched him really hard for him to get the job.

Be very wary of those practice. Recruiters are not your friend.

~~~
erac1e
Recruiters are sharks. Its quite funny when you play them at their own games
though. I did a few interviews with different recruiters in my last hunt. Told
them all 'I am interviewing for one other job' so I didn't look desperate but
at the same didn't look too committed (so I was a good horse to bet on). Then
once I got the offer I wanted I dropped all other interviews immediately (one
on the day). Got some anger for that!

------
AaronLasseigne
If you have the time, go to local meetups. They can help you build a solid
network and often have information about employers looking to hire. My last
two jobs came from networking in this way.

~~~
vonmoltke
Assuming, of course, that there are companies you want to work for locally.

------
vs2370
i agree. that was part of the inspiration behind
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11441183](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11441183)
. I am making progress on the product but primarily i think linkedin is biased
towards serving recruiters better than users.

At the very least there should be a way to filter out good recruiters from the
bad ones. I hate to say but more like a review system where you can rate your
interaction with a recruiter.

------
collyw
Stack Overflow Careers. LinkedIn. Glassdoor sends me emails - seems similar
content to what comes up on LinkedIn. The Python Meetup group here in
Barcelona often has jobs posted to the mailing list. Jobserve used to be the
one to use in the UK, but I haven't lived there for a while. Infojobs in
Spain.

Many years ago a recruiter contacted me about a job for a well known
Investment Bank, we had the usual bullshit conversation and never got back to
me. I applied directly and got a job.

------
thinksquare
Hi there!

Why not give us a try at
[http://www.thinksquare.io](http://www.thinksquare.io) :)

We use A.I to match you with jobs, your profile is hidden from companies until
you accept a match.

Once you accept and the company accepts as well, you'll be connected with the
hiring manager.

FYI we're mostly live in Canada, a few positions in the US and Europe.
However, we're moving into the remote space very soon if that potentially
interests you.

------
icanhasfay
A little late to the party but I just recently created a job board that aims
for organizing the tech job market.
[https://www.zeroinjobs.com](https://www.zeroinjobs.com)

I know it's a bit misaligned with the ask in the thread but thought it could
be a good resources for job seekers. Personally got sick of creating pseudo
regex's on job search sites.

------
mmanfrin
Even though it's technically a 'recruiter', Hired.com is pretty painless. The
main point I appreciated is that it was not terribly pushy. They asked that
you respond to offers, but that's about it.

I havent gotten a job through them, I'm still 100% through
friends/excoworkers, but the process was nice and I did get offers (and a
friend did land a job through them).

------
xando
A while ago I wrote something called
[https://whoishiring.io](https://whoishiring.io) is an aggregator for IT jobs,
it has decent IT amount of job posts (~15000) including HN's "Who is Hiring?"
which you start with btw.

But as it was mentioned couple of times here: Indeed, Glassdoor, Adzuna are
good places to visit as well.

------
nvarsj
> What's the procedure for getting a new job without going through external
> recruiters?

Same as always, networking :). Go to meet ups, go to conferences, talk at
conferences. Do this for a while and your network will grow fast, and you'll
be skipping technical interviews even. It's not quite practical for a lot of
people but that's the breaks.

------
SerLava
A lot of companies post their job listings on their own site, then stick the
same descriptions on recruiters' sites.

The job posting sites often seem to mix it up and purposely anonymize these
job descriptions, but they're pretty lazy. You can google little unique
sounding bits of the description and find the actual company.

------
Tiks
You can also try company bots on CodeFights :
[https://codefights.com/bots](https://codefights.com/bots) if you win and
apply your information gets submitted to respective companies directly.

------
Chris2048
Some companies require a recruiter. I'm a contractor, and my contract is with
the recruiter, not their client. This is through my own company, with its own
insurance etc.

------
rygine
If you want a job at a startup, contact a recruiter/talent partner at a VC
firm. You will have more interviews than you know what to do with.

------
DrNuke
Mileage may vary but recruiters fill a networking gap and are useful to
outsiders for getting a foot in the door.

------
tedmiston
AngelList is great and it's (part of) how I got my current position.

------
jwmoz
I actually just posted this
[http://weworkcontract.com/](http://weworkcontract.com/) for London contract
jobs aggregated from job boards (and recruiters).

~~~
botw
Is this for London onsite contract work only? remote ok?

