
Find salaries paid at companies using foreign worker data - krishna_sh
http://www.salar.ly
======
kelukelugames
I love these things. Transparency in salary information gives the employees
more power. I know the site is down at the moment but it's worth it to
bookmark and come back later. Make sure you set the search fields to 2013 or
2012 to 2013 to remove stale salaries. You don't want to negotiate using data
from 2009. ;)

Here is comparing google to microsoft to amazon in Seattle. The gaps are
pretty wide even for college hire SDE salaries. Go demand a pay raise today!

[http://www.salar.ly/salaries/?title=&company=amazon&location...](http://www.salar.ly/salaries/?title=&company=amazon&location=seattle,%20WA&start_year=2012&end_year=2013&page=8)

[http://www.salar.ly/salaries/?title=&company=google&location...](http://www.salar.ly/salaries/?title=&company=google&location=Kirkland%2C+WA&start_year=2012&end_year=2013)

[http://www.salar.ly/salaries/?title=&company=microsoft&locat...](http://www.salar.ly/salaries/?title=&company=microsoft&location=redmond,%20wa&start_year=2012&end_year=2013&page=24)

Site is down by they are looking at it:
[https://twitter.com/roguelynn/status/507231579752902656](https://twitter.com/roguelynn/status/507231579752902656)

~~~
JimboOmega
Let's say you're being underpaid; what is the right strategy to take?

I don't want to poison the working relationship with people above me.

~~~
otakucode
You are expected to leave the company. Raises are kept far, far below the rate
at which employees actually accrue value in order to ensure that employees do
not stay at a company for longer than 4 or 5 years. After 4 or 5 years, the
gap between what you would make anywhere else and what you can make where you
already are is enormous.

There is a quote from hundreds of years ago which applies. "Make game of that
which makes as much of thee." They fully intend to game you and exploit your
desire for stability and predictability in your life. Play them back.

~~~
johnward
I believe this to be true. However, in some cases you can get a competing
offer and have your current employer match it. My experience is that
suggesting you are underpaid without a competing offer doesn't get you very
far. Most employers will pay you as little as possible given the market and in
the tech market you can jump ship.

~~~
rcoder
I strongly disagree with this. It may be true at many companies, but not
anywhere I would ever work (esp. as a manager).

Requiring people to have a competitive offer in-hand basically says, "if you
want a raise, go interview somewhere else." That's toxic and only effective
for the people who game the system.

Responsible employers owe their employees a fair (according to market, their
peers, and their contributions) wage, not the minimum they can possibly get
away with paying. It might save you a few bucks in the near term to play
stupid games with people's comp, but the attrition will kill you in the long
run.

~~~
johnward
"Requiring people to have a competitive offer in-hand basically says, "if you
want a raise, go interview somewhere else." That's toxic and only effective
for the people who game the system."

I agree with you on this. However, that's just how it works at all of the
places I have worked for. Except for one. The startup I was at before we were
acquired by a large tech company. However, being a startup we were already
strapped for cash and were not being paid market rates but had some equity.
That turned out to be decent when we cashed in but not enough for most of us
to cover the salary difference.

I fully agree that employers should be proactive to ensure that good employees
are happy and want to stay with the company. It should be mutually beneficial
but I have yet to find a place like that. In the mega corps this just can't
happen because of red tape. If you don't ask you will just get the standard 2%
or whatever it is each year. Many times if you do ask the manager can't do
anything about it anyway. I've brought it up that my hourly rate is 1/8 the
rate I bill out at and am told that's just how it works.

------
hungrygs
You call tell how much the H-1B system is being gamed by the Indian in-source
companies. They basically never hire software engineers but only "computer
programmers" and the ubiquitous "analyst."

Look at this (Salaries in New Jersey? $45,000 for systems analysts?)
[http://www.h1bme.com/?employer=COGNIZANT+TECHNOLOGY+SOLUTION...](http://www.h1bme.com/?employer=COGNIZANT+TECHNOLOGY+SOLUTIONS+U.S.+CORPORATION&jobtitle=&perpage=50)

Systems Architects $73k and "programmers" $63k. Not a single software engineer
or developer!
[http://www.h1bme.com/?employer=TATA+CONSULTANCY+SERVICES+LIM...](http://www.h1bme.com/?employer=TATA+CONSULTANCY+SERVICES+LIMITED&jobtitle=&perpage=50)

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johnward
Can anyone post a link to the original data source? I'd like to verify this is
in fact DOL data. It's much easier to go to an employer with data from an
official government source than it is from some site, even if that site claims
it got it's data from the source.

~~~
johnward
The PERM_FY* excel files seem to include this data:
[https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_...](https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&lr=&cr=&as_qdr=all&as_sitesearch=foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov&as_occt=any&safe=images&tbs=&as_filetype=xls&as_rights=#as_qdr=all&hl=en&q=PERM+site:foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov+filetype:xlsx)

~~~
psuter
Note that (if I'm not mistaken), PERM is the program for green card
applicants. I would imagine that GC applicants are on average more senior and
better paid than H1Bs applicants.

To answer your question below, you can get the H1B data through
[http://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/performancedata.cfm](http://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/performancedata.cfm)
-> disclosure -> LCA.

~~~
johnward
How did you find the h1b quarterly data you posted below?

------
hyperlz
I use [http://visadoor.com](http://visadoor.com) for the same info, and I
believe from the same official source:

[http://visadoor.com/perm](http://visadoor.com/perm) (Daily PERM results)

[http://visadoor.com/h1bvisa-database](http://visadoor.com/h1bvisa-database)
(H1B )

[http://visadoor.com/greencards-database](http://visadoor.com/greencards-
database) (PERM, more detailed info)

~~~
bugsbunnyak
_this web site ([http://visadoor.com/](http://visadoor.com/) ) has been
blocked because it has been determined by Web Reputation Filters to be a
security threat to your computer or the corporate network._

Indeed!

~~~
pcl
Cisco's firewall blocks it too. Funny stuff.

------
kassner
Server Error (500) in any search

~~~
kelukelugames
[https://twitter.com/roguelynn/status/507231579752902656](https://twitter.com/roguelynn/status/507231579752902656)

They are fixing it!

~~~
sp_
Thank you for the note. Whenever salar.ly is linked from somewhere popular I
have to spin up more Heroku instances.

~~~
winslow
Can't heroku do that automatically and scale to meet demand? I thought that
was one of the selling points of "the cloud"?

~~~
sp_
Possibly, but not on the free tier. Anyway, our current plan can only handle
20 concurrent connections to Postgres and I am not planning to pay more to
satisfy spikes.

~~~
shostack
Can you clarify on why not? If you get interest and a big news hit, isn't it
important to you to capitalize on that as much as possible and leave a good
impression so people come back to use your service?

If you don't have the funds that's one thing and I get it, but seems like
spikes are exactly the kind of thing worth spending on.

~~~
sp_
The website a weekend project, not something I care for whether people use it.
On average it has five to ten visitors a day unless linked to from somewhere
big which only happens like twice a year.

~~~
kelukelugames
This site is awesome. Can you please put up a paypal link? I want to give you
money regardless of what you do with it.

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datamatt
Does this include bonuses? Many companies (mine included) pay 40%+ extra in
bonuses to bring people to the market level.

(site is also down so I can't see)

~~~
vampirechicken
If it takes bonuses to get you to market rates, then you're still underpaid.

~~~
seanflyon
This is not true. You are only underpaid if you compensation is below market
rate compensation. If I got paid $1 plus a $1 million bonus I would not be
underpaid.

You should consider how much risk you are willing to take and how likely it is
that you will get a smaller (or larger) than expected bonus.

~~~
vampirechicken
I'm not sure that your argument is a false dichotomy, but it smells of logical
fallacy to me.

Using the pathological case to prove your point rather than a more likely case
is disingenuous at best.

I'm talking about people trying to make an honest living, and having to deal
with nests of vipers while trying get reasonably compensated.

If market is 104k, don't offer me 52k salary + 52k bonus, because I have to
say I make 52, not 104 - well below market.

To me it sounds like a way to artificially deflate salaries (not specifically
compensation. Your SO might want to know how much you expect to make all year,
but for budgeting purposes, there's a big difference in budgeting for a 1k per
week cash flow and a 2k per week cash flow.

~~~
seanflyon
Disproof by counter example is not disingenuous. I pointed out that what
vampirechicken wrote was clearly wrong then tried to get at the heart of the
issue. I did not say to count each dollar of maximum bonus (or even expected
bonus) as the same value as a dollar of salary, in fact I said the opposite.
The value of a bonus is the expected value minus the cost of volatility. You
correctly point that you should also subtract the cost of delay.

When you are comparing your current compensation package to the industry
standard the better one is the one that is worth more to you. You might put an
unusually high or low value on risk or the cost of delaying compensation till
the end of the year. You might value the free lunches or health insurance more
or less than the average worker. Since you are the one receiving the
compensation package what matters is what it is worth to you.

The bottom line is that market rate is total compensation, not just salary. If
a company offers you a 'market rate' salary with no bonus and no benefits then
that offer is bellow market rate. If an offer has lower salary, but great
benefits and a huge bonus then (if you will actually get the bonus) that offer
is above market rate.

~~~
vampirechicken
Since most of the online definitions of bonus that I've found are with my own
in that they include the idea of a bonus being above and beyond what is
expected compensation, then I'm going to chalk this up to our having differing
connotations of bonus.

In my case, a bonus is extra pay, usually tied to performance (individual or
corporate), while yours appears to be 'another category of compensation for
work done.'

~~~
seanflyon
I think we are using the same definition: an amount of money added to wages on
a seasonal basis, especially as a reward for good performance. (definition
according to google)

Being "extra" does not make it somehow not compensation.

~~~
vampirechicken
But it makes it not salary, and since there is not market rate for bonuses,
since they often depend on profitability or percent to yearly sales numbers,
the number that truly matters is salary. It's the number that potential
employers will ask you for, or offer you and is typically the only individual
component of your compensation package.

~~~
seanflyon
There is of course a market rate for total compensation much more so that
there is more just salary. When companies compete for you, they do so by
offering more than just salary. You can tell potential employers whichever
number you want. If want to tell them your previous compensation that would be
reasonable.

Money is fungible.

~~~
vampirechicken
> Money is fungible Indeed it is. Thanks for the dialog. I've enjoyed it.

------
ronnier
Salary is very misleading. Total compensation is ultimately what matters.

------
s_m
i also like [http://h1bwage.com/](http://h1bwage.com/) for this purpose

~~~
johnward
Is that data also pulled from the DOL? If it is accurate then my employer
seems to be a liar.

~~~
syntern
I'm not sure about the data source, but my query on my situation seems to be
accurate (base salary was roughly matching).

~~~
johnward
As a citizen the salaries are almost double my rate for same position/same
company.

~~~
syntern
Is it a large or small company? How long have you been there? Are you looking
only at the base salary part? (e.g. for the reference my total compensation is
almost double than my base salary)...

~~~
johnward
I've decided that due to company policies I shouldn't really say much more.

~~~
mjmahone17
It is illegal for companies to retaliate for your discussing your salary
(though probably not for calling them a "liar"). Look up the National Labor
Relations Act.

That being said, you can be fired for things that you're legally allowed to
discuss, and then it becomes an issue of whether you're willing to pay
lawyer's fees to sue. Which is not usually a great situation to be in.

------
foobarqux
Note that this excludes bonuses so is not helpful for positions where
performance pay is a large part of compensation.

------
safepants
is there a similar web service for Canadian results, or even the raw data from
the Government?

------
arenaninja
Is there something similar for non-H1B data? I've previously used salary.com,
glassdoor.com and search results on indeed.com to try and compare local
salaries, and the variation can be as much as $15k on either end (low-|high-)

------
yuribit
Very interesting, I'm waiting that it comes up again.. in the meanwhile, don't
you think that every input fields in the "Find salaries" page should be a
dropdown menu?

~~~
sp_
When the DB is up, you'll see recommendations while typing.

------
zszugyi
They seem to be making 500 (server error).

------
jprince
Put in Pangea, Chicago, 2009-2013, got server error, running Google Chrome on
Macbook Air 2013 Snow Leopard.

------
KSS42
Some info gleaned from these site:

At Apple, one VP of SW has a salary of approx $400K.

------
new_guy123
I was so hoping for auto completion!

~~~
Kiro
It has but not working at the moment.

------
rabidonrails
I got a 500 - Server error.

------
momchenr
This site is getting CRUSHED...

------
clutterjoe
Server Error 500... boo

------
SushiMon
Server Error 500. Sigh. Yawn.

------
buchols
Title is not accurate. This site is actually a great server-error generator,
but no sign of any salary data.

------
MaxwellM
Lynn, FYI - these numbers reported to the DoL are not necessarily accurate and
thus should only be used as a ballpark estimate. They are likely to be
overestimates of actual numbers.

Having seen H1B document submitted to the DoL, I know that firms misrepresent
these numbers. An H1B is granted to immigrants for positions that ostensibly
couldn't be filled by US citizens, this is rarely the case. Firms have to show
that a job application was life for a certain amount of time and they were
unable to fill it.

Finally they need to claim that because the position is so hard to fill, they
are willing to pay above prevailing wage. See H1B LCA.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa#Labor_Condition_Appli...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa#Labor_Condition_Application)

They however do not need to prove that the claimed wage is what is actually
being paid. These numbers are thus overestimates and I would guess >10% off
the mark.

That said, it is obviously illegal to misrepresent these numbers and some
firms are more scrupulous than others.

~~~
untog
As an H1B employee, I can assure you that the amount on my LCA was the same as
I was paid. That said, it is important that people understand what these
figures are - they are not actual technically salaries.

~~~
johnward
"That said, it is important that people understand what these figures are -
they are not actual technically salaries."

Can you explain?

~~~
untog
The Wikipedia article probably does a better job than I do, but the LCA is a
company submitting what they plan to pay an employee when they hire them. As
far as I am aware, if I get a pay rise the company does not need to resubmit
an LCA.

