
Why Democracies Are Turning Against Chinese Influence - rumcajz
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/china/2018-10-24/why-democracies-are-turning-against-belt-and-road
======
grecy
"Without a determined political action, within few decades China will be the
leading global economic and political power. EU/US and others must join
muscles to stop the economic domination of China by econ-political means,
before it's too late".

Whenever I read statements like that, it's as if somehow the EU/US think they
have a _right_ to be the dominant global economic and political power, and
somehow it's their moral right to stop anyone else from ascending to that
position.

China has over a billion people. So does India, so does the continent of
Africa. They are all developing much, much faster than the vast majority of
people realize [1]

Anyone who thinks the EU/US will remain the dominant global economic and
political power in the next decades is severely deluded.

[1] Checkout the fantastic "Factfulness: Ten Reasons We're Wrong About the
World--and Why Things Are Better Than You Think " by the master Hans Rosling,
where he clearly demonstrates using irrefutable stats that the poorest
countries in the world today are developing faster than for example Sweden
ever did, at any point in history.
[https://amzn.to/2CXPdCu](https://amzn.to/2CXPdCu)

~~~
badrabbit
I get what you're saying,I would even say that China is acheiving this without
wars, unlike the west.

But, they are not very good to their own people and they are extremely
distrustful of foreigners. Not just westerners but even in africa they've been
caught acting with malicious intentions(the last example I read was how they
backdoored the African Union's IT systems). Very hard to trust someone who
trusts no one.

The primary fear should be wars and global instability instead of who gets to
wear the #1 badge. It has not even been a century since WW2,the current
chinese regime is operating as a response to WW2 and "running a marathon,not a
sprint" to beat the west and russia. China dominating the west would usher in
Cold War 2.0(or has it already,pentagon papers and all) except with higher
stakes,in the end military dominance matters as much as economic.

~~~
grecy
> _they are extremely distrustful of foreigners. Not just westerners but even
> in africa they 've been caught acting with malicious intentions(the last
> example I read was how they backdoored the African Union's IT systems). Very
> hard to trust someone who trusts no one._

You should checkout what the DHS, TSA and NSA have been up to...

~~~
bilbo0s
I understand what you're getting at, but there's hypocrisy enough to go around
on all sides. In my opinion, a remark made below brought out a very salient
point that explains everything that is going on here in a far less
hypocritical manner:

>The US/EU will try to maintain their power because to do so is _RATIONAL_.

What you're getting at, I think, is true. ie - The US/EU are hypocritical. I
could respond with, "Well, _CHINA_ is hypocritical." But that wouldn't get us
anywhere. The person who commented on nations acting in rational fashions made
a comment that actually gets us somewhere.

No, there are no "good guys" here, just a lot of people acting rationally.
When looked at in that fashion, the propaganda from both sides is completely
understandable.

Also, a lot of it is true.

For instance, you didn't say that China _WAS_ worthy of trust because x, or y,
or z.

You said that the US is _NOT_ worthy of trust because x, and y, and z. All
likely true, but that doesn't make China any more of a friend to the world
than is the US.

------
imgabe
I was in Hong Kong recently. My girlfriend is doing a postdoc there, so I
expect to be there frequently. Two things struck me.

1\. China just opened one of the largest bridges in the world, the Hong Kong-
Zuhai-Macau bridge. This bridge cuts what used to be 4 hour journey from Hong
Kong to mainland China, to 45 minutes.

2\. While I was in Hong Kong, there was a disruption in the subway service.
Instead of trains running every 3-4 minutes, they were running every 6-8
minutes. Some people experienced delays of up to 15(!) minutes. From the news
coverage, you'd think this was a 9/11-level catastrophe. It was the top story
all day, and it continues as the company responsible is still offering public
apologies and reduced fares to make up for the disruption. It was absolutely
inconceivable that the train should ever be late.

Meanwhile, back in DC where I live, we count ourselves lucky if the train
shows up at all and is not on fire.

So leaders can go on about "determined political action" but the bottom line
is, China is getting shit done and building things that people can actually
use to make their lives better. (Human rights are another story of course).

The US and much of the western world seems to have lost any ability to build
large-scale infrastructure project, and the infrastructure we _do_ have is
crumbling due to neglect. When was the last time something like the Hong Kong-
Zuhai-Macau bridge was built in the US? Maybe Robert Moses building highways
through Manhattan in the 60s and 70s?

~~~
hyperbovine
Totalitarian governments have a long history of “getting shit done”, as you
put it. This is not new. Fewer megabridges is but one of the many prices you
pay in return for freedom of expression. By the way, who do you think is most
excited about being able to drive a bunch of shit into HK from mainland China
on a monent’s notice?

~~~
Rylinks
why? I do think there is a historical case, but what about freedom of
expression makes it harder to build bridges, and is there a way to build
bridges anyway?

~~~
simonh
Just look at the political back and forth about new terminals at Heathrow. The
public inquiries, consultations and local election battles have been going on
for decades. Hardly an infrastructure project goes by without it being
challenged in court by environmental and local interest groups. Democratic
governments also have to publish detailed budgets and face electoral pressure
on spending priorities. More infrastructure equals fewer hospital beds is a
powerful political argument, it might be answerable but at least it has to be
addressed.

The Three Gorges Dam wiped out 13 cities, 140 towns and 1350 villages and
dislocated 1.24 million residents. There were probably protests, but how would
you know and what do you think happened to the protesters? Here in Britain
we're having a permanent crisis building one more airport terminal.

Autocratic regimes are completely opaque in their finances and budgetary
priorities and care more about publicly visible results, of which flagship
infrastructure projects are a prominent part.

------
majia
It is a strategic failure that western democracies turned a blind eye to the
infrastructure development and poverty reduction in developing nations and
enjoyed their special interests inherited from the colonial era. That's why
China is welcome when it comes with a cleaner history and less hypocrisy. Had
we been more genuinely helping, Chinese influence would not be an issue.

~~~
RobertoG
"[..] western democracies turned a blind eye to the infrastructure development
and poverty reduction [..]"

In my opinion you are a little too generous here. In many historical cases,
and for many countries, a less active involvement of western democracies would
mean more development and more poverty reduction. Just think of the
interference in internal politics, the support to dictatorial regimens and the
imposition of "free trade". Of course, that doesn't mean that the Chinese are
going to be better.

This part of the article strike me as specially disconnected of reality:

"Unlike Western lenders, China does not require its partners to meet stringent
conditions related to corruption, human rights [..]"

It's specially ironic because, who are the main partners of China if not those
Westerns?

~~~
thx4allthestuff
Just for your benefit / future reference, the word “specially” refers to a
special case, as in “John was specially selected to carry out the ceremony.”
The word “especially” however, refers to something that exceeds the norm, as
in “It was especially ironic that I used the word incorrectly while correcting
someone else.”

~~~
RobertoG
Thanks for that. I don't think that difference exist in my language, I will
try to remember.

------
hevi_jos
It has nothing to do with democracies.

It has to do with slavery by debt. Something as old as Roman Empire. The Jews
created a cyclic system of years, with one, the Shemittah, the Sabbatical year
to free people from debt for this reason.

If you want to know how the West has been doing the same (or worse) for a long
time you could read "Confessions of an Economic Hitman", by John Perkins.

------
deadwing0
Interesting article. Just found it surprising that there were so many typos in
it.

------
diminish
As several analysts noted "Without a determined political action, within few
decades China will be the leading global economic and political power. EU/US
and others must join muscles to stop the economic dominaton of China by econ-
political means, before it's too late".

Day by day, US think-thanks are joining Trump's economic war against China.
For US, to build up allies, usual quick wins are Australia, Japan and
adversarial countries surrounding China as well as UK and most of Europe and
some of South America.

Harder competition ahead between China and US will be in Africa, Pakistan,
Iran, Russia, Middle East, Asia.

~~~
2chen
So..what the TPP was supposed to accomplish? At least before Trump's bumbling
decision to withdraw to score rhetorical points with his base. Pretty sure
think tanks are several moves ahead of Trump, if he even plans out his moves
at all.

~~~
dabbledash
Think tanks... third graders... particularly well trained border collies.
Doesn’t take a lot to get out in front.

------
qubax
> Why Democracies Are Turning Against Chinese Influence

"Democracies"? I get that foreign affairs is a propaganda think tank, but I
wish they'd be more honest. People aren't uneducated saps anymore.

"why some in the west and others are working to contain china"? would be a
better title. Has nothing to do with "democracies".

It's not a recent phenomenon. It's not just democracies. Some autocrats also
are against chinese influence.

But this also applies to every nation. Many democracies and non-democracies
are turning against european "influence". Many democracies and non-democracies
are turning against american "influence". The same for russia and their former
sphere of influence nations. No country wants to be under the thumb of another
country.

The only difference between china and the US/EU/Russia is that china doesn't
bomb and invade democracies or non-democracies to "bring them freedom". At
least not yet.

Nothing this article stated is new. Essentially, water is wet but
propagandized to make it seem our water is better or their is worse.

