
The Commuter Bike Redesigned and Electrified - ot
http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/03/the-commuter-bike-redesigned-and-electrified/
======
Derbasti
Frankly, I don't see the point of electric bicycles. I have not seen any
electric bicycle that offered any real advantage to a normal muscle-operated
one.

As a matter of fact, bicycles are one of the oldest and most refined
technologies available to us. They are marvelously efficient, they are light
and versatile. Adding an electric motor and battery makes them heavy, limits
your range and decreases the amount of control you have over the bike. Which
is nice for, say, elderly people.

And maybe you are American and you don't know this, but many European
countries have excellent biking routes everywhere and cars actually brake for
cyclists. All that talk about cycling being dangerous is mainly an American
problem. In most other countries, bikes are actually a lot safer than cars for
the simple reason that they don't go as fast.

I think bicycles are plain fun. I ride my bicycle to work whenever I can. I
love my bicycles. All three of them!

~~~
othello
_As a matter of fact, bicycles are one of the oldest and most refined
technologies available to us._

Bicycles can hardly be considered an old technology. While Da Vinci had
already sketched some designs in the late 15th century [1], the first
prototypes could not be built before the early 19th century.

The first recognizable version of the current chain-driven models was only
produced in 1885. [2]

The chain-driven bicycle is not as simple as it looks.

[1] <http://www.ltolman.org/davinci.htm> [2]
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycles>

~~~
Derbasti
Show me another widespread technology that exists since the late 1800s and
that has not been completely replaced by another technology. Most technologies
get replaced by newer 'disruptive' technologies in rather short times (think
gasoline vs. steam vs. electricity for trains or turbine vs. gasoline for
planes).

The 'driving force' for bicycles has stayed virtually the same (human
muscles), but the transmissions and layouts have been improved steadily. Only
the advent of hybrid electric-and-muscle driven e-bikes can be seen as an
actual revolution in cycling technology.

~~~
simonsarris
> Show me another widespread technology that exists since the late 1800s and
> that has not been completely replaced by another technology.

There have got to be hundreds.

Traffic lights and air brakes, 1868

Four-stroke internal combustion engine, 1876

toilet paper, 1880

Rayon, 1884

Steam turbine, 1884

Gas-powered automobile and motorcycle, 1885

dish-washer, Coca-cola (is that an invention?), 1886

radar, contact lenses, 1887

AC motor/transformer, 1888

cordite, 1889

escalator, 1891

zipper, 1893

~~~
adolph
What did people use before 1880?

~~~
simonsarris
People wiped themselves with writing paper, wool, hemp, seashells, corn cobs,
sponges, stones, small wooden planks, moss, snow, and their own hands.

Pretty much anything. Of course some of these methods are still in use today,
depending on where you look.

~~~
ez77
You are forgetting about a 17th-century invention based on running water [1]
which, by the way, to this day is considered by many to be significantly more
hygienic than wiping.

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bidet>

~~~
adolph
That device doesn't seem very portable. I guess there are trade-offs to
everything.

~~~
ez77
Yes, they don't leave the bathrooms... which is where >99% of your #2's take
place.

------
po
Seems kind of overdone. You can barely use the sidewalk in Tokyo without
getting knocked down by a middle-aged woman with a huge sun-visor, a bag of
groceries and two kids strapped to something like this:

<http://us.sanyo.com/Commercial-eneloop-bike>

They're just like a regular bike but they assist you when you climb up hills
or just plain get tired. The battery behind the seat-tube slides out for a
recharge. I would say about 20% of the bikes you see parked by a train station
are electric hybrids.

 _edit:_ I will say though, that the foldability part of this is nice, but I
prefer the hybrid approach of a standard bike.

~~~
ot
IMHO the foldability part is the main point. The typical usage seems to be
home -> bus or tube stop -> public transport -> office. Here in UK you can't
take bycicles in buses or tube. There are indeed foldable bikes
(<http://www.brompton.co.uk/>) but they are a pain to (un)fold and they are
not electric.

Still, price and limited autonomy are real issues. At 1K$ and 20 miles of
autonomy I would probably buy one.

~~~
samatman
As a ridiculously happy Brompton owner and fanboy (how's that for a
disclaimer!) let me assure you that they are no pain at all to fold or unfold.

I have challenged a dozen people to get their bikes locked to a post in the
time it takes me to fold the Brommy. No one has succeeded to date.

~~~
delackner
You must be leaving out some salient details on why it takes your friends such
a long time to lock up their bikes. You live in a city with a high bicycle
theft crime rate perhaps?

So how long are we talking about? The video links by the next commenter shows
it taking about 20-30 seconds.

I manage to lock up my bike with a simple 4 digit combo chain in less than 10
seconds, but I can get away with locking it to itself in Tokyo :)

~~~
samatman
Yes, SF has very high bike theft rates. Around here a chain or cable isn't
considered a lock at all.

That's not why though. One has to get off the bike, get a key out, get the
lock out, lean the bike against whatever one is locking it to, put the lock
on, and work the key.

With the Brompton, one simply gets off and folds it.

------
noonespecial
Bicycles enjoy a kind of special status in the US when it comes to tort law
and manufacturer liability that is shared with many other older designs.
People know they are dangerous and automatically accept this. Things like
table saws, ladders, kitchen knives, and roller skates are other examples of
things that fit this category.

Inventors of this type of device face a steep uphill climb in the litigious
climate of today's United States because its so completely different than
traditional bikes. I'm not saying its impossible, I'm just saying that things
like this will be magnets for the lawsuit-lottery.

I wonder what the ratio of lawsuits/Segway vs. lawsuits/Schwinn happens to
be...

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RiderOfGiraffes
Previous discussions:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=806150>

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=810787>

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1161537>

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1275109>

------
davidw
It'd feel awfully strange riding a bike without my hands out in front of me.
Also:

* My crappy commuter bike probably costs between 1 and 5% of the price of this thing.

* How's it deal with rain/dirt?

* Sometimes I _do_ want to just lock it up. Imagine going to the grocery store... at 22 pounds you don't want to haul it around inside. I have a lot more peace of mind locking up my cheap commuter bike outside.

Still, it looks like it's beautifully engineered.

~~~
buro9
It was either going to be you or I who responded ;)

My biggest concern when I saw this originally was the emergency braking
scenario. Which basically involves doing a face plant and using your nose and
forehead to slow you down by embedding it in the floor.

One of the selling points mentioned in the article is, "you can jump forward
off the bike in a crisis; there’s no hardware in your way". Which seems
strange as every accident I've had or come perilously close to has been
hitting something head-on (from the cyclist perspective... such as peds who
walk out in front of you, or cars coming out from a side street).

The weirdest thing I find though is just the speed. These things tend to be
speed limited as this helps classify them separately from the soon to be
coming breed of electric scooters and motorcycles. Obv' electric bike
manufacturers do not want to be forced in complying with that set of
regulations and all that it entails. But the speed limiting is such that even
a commuter on a cheap bike is going to be going the same speed, and a fit
commuter will achieve a higher average speed than someone on this thing.

~~~
Derbasti
My thoughts exactly. I guess they put the battery in the tail end to keep it
from flipping over when breaking. Still, it seems kind of dangerous.

As for speed, many cyclists will go considerably faster than any of these
things, especially if it goes downhill. It might spoil some of the fun to be
regularly overtaken by muscle-powered bikes...

------
atgm
You can buy regular bicycles with little electric motors on them here in Japan
for about $1,000. That seems a lot more reasonable than completely redesigning
the bicycle...

~~~
flipbrad
I doubt many japanese take those on the subway though! I don't recall seeing
standard bicycles on the tokyo metro at all, in fact.

To the person who said you prefer to lock it up outside a grocery store - what
exactly stops you from doing that with this device?

The cost is a major stumbling block; mind you, I see a lot of heinously
expensive road bikes around London, and I suppose their actual utility is
lower (harder to take onto buses and rail services; harder to store at home,
in the street or at the office; not electric)

I'd be interested to see a study done on the device's eco credentials; I've
heard persuasive arguments that electric bikes are greener than pedal powered
bikes when you consider the petrochemical requirements of a pedal bike's
energy source (your food)...

~~~
atgm
No subway out where I live. Plenty of older people use them because of the
hills/mountains out here. You can see them on the buses that take bikes, or
the non-JR train lines that let you take bikes.

------
diziet
It seems horribly unsafe in case of an accident. Sure, 15mph is turtle speed
when it comes to bicycles (disclosure: I've been racing road bicycles for five
years) but you can still get hurt pretty horribly if you fly out of that
thing. There's no frame/hand compression to stop you.

Also, it doesn't look like a bicycle, at least compared to something in the
similar price range:
[http://www.londoncyclesport.com/Assets/LondonCycleSport+Digi...](http://www.londoncyclesport.com/Assets/LondonCycleSport+Digital+Assets/bike+bmc/bmc091.jpg)

~~~
arethuza
Not to mention he isn't wearing a helmet!

[NB I've had one accident where a helmet definitely saved my life and a couple
of close calls - two my own fault cycling off road and another where kids
threw a brick at me].

------
pmccool
The more I think about it, the more the 6-mile range sounds like a crippling
flaw. Hills and headwinds will presumably knock this around, but that aside,
there's just so little room for error. Forget to charge, make a short detour
to buy groceries and there you are walking home with a bag full of perishables
and an immobile chunk of carbon fibre.

Nice to see some attention paid to lighting though. It's an important issue
for commuter bikes, and one that doesn't seem to get as much attention as it
should.

------
ntoshev
That's too far from the bike concept and way too expensive.

I may try electrifying my bike, a local guy does this and it looks reasonable.
You can see the pictures here:

[http://prodavalnik.com/sglobyavam-elektricheski-
velosipedi-p...](http://prodavalnik.com/sglobyavam-elektricheski-velosipedi-
po-porachka-pr-i1260639)

For the electro-motor, inverter, controls and batteries you pay:

1\. 250W motor 36V+ lead-acid battery (3 х 12V 9Ah)- 300 €

2\. 250W motor 36V+ lead-acid battery (3 х 12V 14Ah)- 323 €

3\. 250W motor 36V+ li-ion battery (36V 10Ah)- 524 €

4\. 250W motor 36V+ lithium iron phosphate battery (36V 12Ah)- 633 €

4\. 250W motor 36V+ lithium iron phosphate battery (36V 15Ah)- 790 €

5\. 500W motor 36V+ lead-acid battery (3 бр.х 12V 9Ah)- 338 €

6\. 500W motor 36V+ lead-acid battery (3 бр.х 12V 14Ah)-363 €

7\. 500W motor 36V+ lithium iron phosphate battery (36V 12Ah)- 674 €

8\. 500W motor 36V+ lithium iron phosphate battery (36V 15Ah)- 830 €

9\. 800W motor 48V+ lithium iron phosphate battery (48V 15Ah)- 980 €

10\. 1000W motor 48V+ lithium iron phosphate battery (48V 15Ah)- 1025 €

Range is 30-80 km and you can always pedal more. I think this product could be
a hit, with a bit better design and manufactured at scale.

------
daniel02216
That's pretty sweet. But $500 is where it'll catch on, not $3,600.

~~~
sliverstorm
Seriously, I can buy 4 motorcycles for that kind of money.

------
anateus
Clearly someone hasn't read PG's The Trouble With The Segway:
<http://paulgraham.com/segway.html>

~~~
gjm11
PG says: "Someone riding a motorcycle isn't working any harder. But because
he's sitting astride it, he seems to be making an effort. When you're riding a
Segway you're just standing there." and: "So there may be a way to capture
more of the market Segway hoped to reach: make a version that doesn't look so
easy for the rider. It would also be helpful if the styling was in the
tradition of skateboards or bicycles rather than medical devices."

This thing does in fact look rather like a bicycle, and the rider does sit
astride it. Perhaps the YikeBike people _have_ read PG's note about the
Segway.

On the other hand, I think it still makes it look as if the rider is "too lazy
to walk". If that (rather than, say, the $3600 price tag) makes the YikeBike
fail, then it'll indicate that PG's basic analysis was right even though his
proposed ways of solving the problem were wrong.

------
lacerus
I tried an electric GoCycle the other day. It is the best looking folding bike
I've ever seen, reaches 30 km/h (faster than all other cyclists around you)
and you don't smell when you arrive at work.

<http://store.gocycle.com/>

Also you can fold it up and take the subway if it starts to rain unexpectedly.

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mechanical_fish
I don't know about the bike itself, but the pricing is an excellent
innovation. Now I can buy the Brompton of my dreams, secure in the knowledge
that I'm getting an _amazing bargain_.

In other news, it might be time to reread Cialdini. ;)

------
marknutter
Too bad you look like an idiot riding one of these things. There's a huge
barrier of entry for strange and unique transportation devices, and that's the
strong aversion most people have to sticking out like a sore thumb.

------
marknutter
A better alternative was already invented years ago:
<http://totallyabsurd.com/bethebike.htm>

