
Tesla Announces Ambitious European Expansion Plans - austenallred
http://techcrunch.com/2014/03/04/tesla-announces-ambitious-european-expansion-plans/
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buro9
I wonder how they will manage the market differences.

For example, in the UK the majority of cars at the level Tesla is going for
are business vehicles. In that category, the tax laws make it such that the
best thing to do is to lease a car.

Which is why you get business leasing options from every manufacturer:

BMW:
[http://www.bmwbusinesspartnership.co.uk/](http://www.bmwbusinesspartnership.co.uk/)

Mercedes: [http://www2.mercedes-
benz.co.uk/content/unitedkingdom/mpc/mp...](http://www2.mercedes-
benz.co.uk/content/unitedkingdom/mpc/mpc_unitedkingdom_website/en/home_mpc/passengercars/home/corporate_sales0/fleet.html)

Lexus: [http://www.lexus.co.uk/company-cars/company-car-
driver/2013/...](http://www.lexus.co.uk/company-cars/company-car-
driver/2013/#/CompanyCarDriver)

Basically, company car perks are paid in cash in monthly installments.
Everyone with a business vehicle leases the vehicle using the cash they are
paid.

Tesla may sell a fair few cars in the UK, but if they want to put a _lot_ of
cars on the road they'll need to package the car in a way that will attract
this market.

I'm sure similar market differences exist throughout Europe too, where local
conditions mean that buying outright isn't usually the best deal.

~~~
objclxt
Tesla already has a leasing program in the US, and in fact I suspect they
would _prefer_ all their customers to lease the vehicles (certainly if you go
to their website you won't see a sticker price on the front page for the Model
S - you'll see a monthly lease price after rebates, etc).

~~~
mikeash
Note that they don't technically offer leasing, but rather a loan with a
guaranteed repurchase price after three years. I don't know how much that
matters, but there it is.

I get the impression that they like to talk up monthly costs not because they
prefer leasing, but because it tends to show the car in a better light. They
have a calculator which lets you calculate the "effective" cost of the car,
which basically starts with the actual monthly cost and then subtracts off
various savings, ranging from reasonable things like paying less for gasoline,
all the way down to fairly dumb things like the value of the time you no
longer spend filling up at the gas station.

~~~
sp332
It matters because the $7,500 federal credit (for buying a "green" car)
doesn't apply to real leases.

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bausson
A push for electric vehicles in Europe is a really good thing, but I'm not
sure the market is exactly ready.

On the other hand, Tesla has better getting their supercharger network ready
before the sales catch up, the other way around would be bad for the brand.
And seeing supercharger on the roadside when going to fill one's tank can get
people thinking, given gas price.

~~~
patrickk
> Tesla has better getting their supercharger network ready before the sales
> catch up..

Given the fact that average distances in Europe tend to be shorter will likely
mean the majority of EV owners (e.g. commuters) will simply charge up at home
and rarely need to use a supercharger. Having a supercharger nearby sweetens
the deal.

Also, petrol prices are so much higher here, so the economic case for owning
an EV is even stronger. For example, where I live it's about €1.49/liter of
petrol, which is something in the region of $8.20/US Gallon if I'm doing the
conversions correctly. So the payback period would be quicker over here
(versus regular new car), plus there's likely to be tax incentives to purchase
EVs also. Another plus would be strong support instead of the situation with
the dealer network in the US.

I hope Tesla can hit their goal of a low cost EV (€30k-40k), they would
dominate the budget car market so quickly if they can deliver at that price,
and decent build quality. It would force the big european car makers to
complete, which would bring great competition in the lower priced EV segment.

~~~
shiftpgdn
Much of the public infrastructure in the UK is paid for based on
gasoline(petrol) excise taxes. Before tax you actually pay about the same as
Americans per gallon of gas. I wonder how the government will handle people
switching to EVs and effectively dodging the tax.

~~~
jdahlin
Public infrastructure needs to be financed somehow and it would make most
sense to do so based on usage of them. Energy tax, vehicle purchase tax or
tolls are the three main options to do that as far as I can see.

Combustion taxes makes sense if it's only used by transportation means, but
that is not the case of electric energy. You could tax at the plug/socket
level, but that's probably something that will be easy to tamper with.

There could always be something fancy such as remotely tracking the vehicles,
but that will open a can of privacy worms.

The only viable option is to do tolls. Not necessarily representative of
actual use, but a good enough approximation of use.

~~~
brc
EV owners will get an extra road usage charge. It's the model already seen in
some US states.

What is funny is that much of the benefit of an EV is effectively they are a
rolling tax-avoidance scheme - in many cases you actually get subsidised for
the purchase. The cost-to-run figures rely heavily on the lack of taxation to
work out better - and this is even more so in highly-taxing regions like most
European countries.

This is obviously not sustainable once larger volumes of vehicles start to
appear on the road.

Of course it would make me happy if EVs became popular _and_ avoided getting
loaded down with all the other taxes that vehicles currently attract. Because
then it would raise the question why all transportation is taxed so heavily.

I know I am dreaming, though. EVs will end up just as taxed as every other
vehicle on the road.

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tehwalrus
I can't afford one of the Model Ss, but I am totally in line for when they
make the budget model in a few years. Very excited that they'll be making a
proper-hand-drive one for the UK too, now all I need is a house (hah) with a
driveway (even worse)...

~~~
dabeeeenster
The driveway requirement is an interesting problem. I live ~7 miles from the
center of London. Driveways are very, very scarce, and I can't guarantee being
able to park in front of my house due to the number of cars on my road. I also
don't know how legal/practical trailing a cable from my house is.

I basically can't own a Tesla (even though I would like to!) as I would never
be able to charge it.

~~~
bhousel
I can't speak to the legality of the building codes where you live, but I
don't see any technical reason why you couldn't have an outlet installed near
the street to charge a car. It's pretty common for electricians to run conduit
out to the street and install convenience outlets for things like landscape or
sign lighting or powered gates.

EDIT: The electrical nerd in me had to see if someone has done this before,
and yes, it would look like this:
[http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/19974-NEMA-14-...](http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/19974-NEMA-14-50-outdoors)

NEMA-14-50 is the kind of outlet used by RVs and Campers, so putting one
outside is pretty much a solved problem.

Though as other commenter have mentioned, actually getting a parking space
outside your house may be the biggest challenge!

~~~
001sky
This is un-related to the actual problem. If you live in a major city (like
SF, London, NY, etc) you cannot park your car in front of your property unless
you have a legal claim to the land. That will cost you somewhere around $500K.

Also, there may not be any available even then. Certain areas in europe, in
particular, are not architected for vehicle co-habitation with residential
real estate in urban centers. So, by all means you can own a Tesla for your
country home. But it may be rather impractical for your town-house. Even in
NYC, its quite normal for people who own cars to keep them garaged off-stite.
Athough, presumably, this is less of an issue as over time professional
parking storage businesses could make a nice secondary income stream by
charging a "convenience fee" to Tesla owners. Maybe 100 to 200 a month, maybe
a whole lot more more. This type of fee is what they charge currently for a
Range Rover or other SUV.

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DocG
Rumors say that canceled cars are being offered to Estonia first if contacted.
Also, there is already two Teslas driving around.
([http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=et&tl=en&js=n&prev=...](http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=et&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=et&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Ftarbija24.postimees.ee%2F2717254%2Ftesla-
teeb-eesti-autohuvilistele-eripakkumise) take with a pinch of salt)

Apparently there is already charging network [http://elmo.ee/laadimispunktide-
vorgustik/](http://elmo.ee/laadimispunktide-vorgustik/) (compatible thou? I
doubt)

And you can get up to 18 000 euros backing from goverment when buying electric
car.
([http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=et&sl=et&tl=en&u=ht...](http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=et&sl=et&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Felmo.ee%2Ftingimused%2F))

~~~
greglindahl
If that's the Chademo network (Wikipedia says there were 148 of those in
Estonia as of March 2012), then yes, Tesla is releasing a Chademo adapter in a
few weeks. It charges at 150 miles/hr, slower than a supercharger and much
faster than a standard L2 240v charger.

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imdsm
This is great news. I'm a big fan of Tesla and would love to drive one, but
being in the UK, we lack quick chargers. Not too bad if you've got a few hours
spare to charge.

Interesting map of UK charging points: [http://www.nextgreencar.com/electric-
cars/charging-points.ph...](http://www.nextgreencar.com/electric-
cars/charging-points.php)

~~~
cstross
A secondary issue for the UK is that we're densely populated and our housing
stock is, on average, 75 years old. Lots of dwellings predate the automobile
and/or lack a garage or a garden (US: yard) on which to build one.
Consequently, home charging is less of an option.

~~~
jseliger
_our housing stock is, on average, 75 years old_

Tangential but relevant here: "15 Facts That Reveal The Utter Insanity Of
Britain’s Housing Market" ([http://www.buzzfeed.com/dlknowles/britains-
dysfunctional-pro...](http://www.buzzfeed.com/dlknowles/britains-
dysfunctional-property-market-in-gi-fm44))

~~~
lclarkmichalek
What a horrid article. Fuck history, fuck the environment, house prices are
too high. I'm going to have to agree with Jamie Marshall in the comments: "The
author of this is clearly an idiot."

~~~
Symmetry
Why do you think building new houses is bad for the environment? In the short
term you're paying for materials, but that'll be made up pretty quickly by
better insulation and, if you get multi-family dwellings, a lower surface area
to volume ratio. And shorter commutes also tend to strongly decrease
transpiration energy use. Clearly you would be losing historical character if
you did what the article suggests, but from what I can see all the
environmental arguments are on the other side, unless you think that
restricting the housing supply will reduce the number of people.

~~~
jseliger
_Why do you think building new houses is bad for the environment?_

Indeed: per Edward Glaeser's book _The Triumph of the City_ , denser cities
are much more environmentally friendly than suburbs, exurbs, or rural areas.

Everyone has to live somewhere.

------
codfrantic
I've seen many Model S' driving around Amsterdam. Mainly because I filter
through the traffic jams on my commute. Yesterday I was at a company which had
two parked in front (connected to a charger on an EV-only parking spot next to
a Plug in Prius).

One of the main reasons Tesla S' are this popular is that as a business owner
you can get tax breaks for electric vehicles which can change the actual price
you pay from €80.000 to ~€35.000...(Curious when that gets shut down by the
government...)

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melvinmt
At rougly $9.70/gallon for regular gas, Europe makes the most sense for
electric vehicles.

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Mvandenbergh
On the one hand, the much higher population density of Western Europe means
that range and charger density issues are much easier to solve. On the other
hand, for precisely that reason many people don't have drive-ways to home-
charge their cars.

------
arethuza
Out of interest, how many other car models have been a success in the United
States market _then_ sold successfully in Europe?

~~~
dangrossman
About 1 in 5 Model S cars coming off the Tesla assembly line headed to Europe
last year. They're not starting from nothing; the Model S was the best-selling
car of any make in Norway, and has sold at least hundreds of units into 6
European countries. Small numbers compared to the incumbents, but certainly
high enough to matter to Tesla which only sells some thousands of cars each
quarter.

~~~
arethuza
I was just curious about whether Tesla have achieved something that has failed
other US manufacturers - create a car that appeals in the US home market _and_
in Europe.

~~~
pjc50
Tesla lack the traditional ugliness and fuel inefficiency of US cars; the
model S looks like a Jaguar but is cheap to run. Nor is it too large.

~~~
arethuza
I was trying to be diplomatic about _why_ I thought US car models hadn't
traditional done well in Europe.... :-)

~~~
gambiting
"traditional" US cars - so massive SUVs and trucks with 7.0L V8 engines are
not popular because of their sheer size(a car which is "normal" by US
standards, like Dodge Ram, can barely fit on an average UK street), fuel
economy and insurance - people buy cars with tiny engines like 1.2/1.6L
partially because they are more efficient,but also because owning a car with a
>2.0L engine would make your insurance and road tax huge(and I am saying that
as a person who used to own a 4.4L V8 car in the UK).

~~~
rayiner
A Dodge Ram is not a "normal" sized car even in the U.S., and will be quite
out of place in say Philadelphia.

~~~
gregpilling
Rams are the fifth best selling passenger vehicle in the US.
[http://www.autoblog.com/2014/01/06/top-10-best-selling-
vehic...](http://www.autoblog.com/2014/01/06/top-10-best-selling-
vehicles-2013/) . As the owner of one, I do agree it can be hard to park.

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dharma1
Think you can already buy the left hand drive version in the UK, they have a
showroom at Westfield. Haven't seen anyone drive one in London but I think
they will do well, personally I'll wait for one after Model X once battery
tech is better

