
Passive Income Hacker vs Startup Guy - mkrecny
http://edu.mkrecny.com/thoughts/passive-income-hacker-vs-startup-guy
======
patio11
The conversation has been known to continue:

SG: "You should join our company as chief growth hacker, since it's a great
fit for your skills and experience. You'll work 100 hour weeks. We're thinking
$60k a year and 0.5% sounds fair. Come change the way the people $VERB."

PIH: "Where do you get to the part of the sales pitch where I get something
out of this deal?"

SG: "Did we mention the free soda?"

(I'm joking... but not by much.)

~~~
lovesgreen
Agree 100%. This article is especially funny because the author's startup is
Followgen. While a twitter app that automates social interactions may be a
useful tool and a great thing to work on, it really isn't changing the world.

~~~
freyr
Could "changing the world" be a contender the most trite, overused expression
of 2013? Recent grads seem to have adopted it _en masse_ as their personal
tagline. It's a nice sentiment, but it hard not to roll your eyes when every
23 year old applies it to his mobile phone app with no users that he threw
together in a couple weeks.

I'd suggest actually changing the world first, and _then_ shouting it from the
rooftops. It will be (slightly) less annoying that way.

Besides, I'm not even sure it's a healthy sentiment for most people
([http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/07/130708103509.ht...](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/07/130708103509.htm)).
If your focus is as broad as "changing the world," you're probably setting
yourself up to feel like a failure.

~~~
JackFr
I think there's clearly a need to disrupt the way people are changing the
world.

~~~
tedks
You should join my startup as chief growth hacker. We'll pay you less than
you're currently making, but you'll change the way people are changing the
world.

~~~
JVIDEL
Are you from Yo Dawg Industries?

------
potatolicious
This post makes me happy :)

> _" Worst of all, PIH is probably not trying to make the world a better place
> through technology."_

Don't worry, PIH, Startup Guy isn't either.

There are really two main camps of startup founders I've met. There's the type
that really wants to bring a vision to life - they have a pseudo-religious
fervor about something, whether it's gaming, transportation, lodging, or
something else. They really want to change the world, and it's not just talk.

Then there are ones that are really in it to make money. They want to create a
company, exit, and go do what they really want to do. Sit on a beach, roll up
to the club in a Rolls Royce, travel, whatever.

It's a sliding scale. Every founder has some balance of being genuinely
passionate about _what_ their company does, and the desire to just cash out.
All said and done though, the founders I meet tend to lean much further
towards the latter than the former.

~~~
veesahni
I don't fit in those buckets. I have no external funding and no desire for it.
I'm not in it to change the world or for a big exit - I'm in it for freedom.

Freedom to steer the business in the direction I feel is right. Freedom to
work on what I choose is important.

The one advantage of this approach is that my primary focus is the needs of my
customers, rather than the needs of my investors.

~~~
jmduke
If you learn a lot of corporate strategy, you'll read about the importance of
aligning the goals of your customers with the goals of your investors (and
then you'll suddenly read that phrase in every earnings and annual report
ever.) The idea being: there's an inherent paradox in trying to serve two
mistresses, one who wants profit and the other who wants value.

Something that isn't touched on too much is that it's sometimes better to only
have one mistress. When your customers are your investors, then your
priorities and goals suddenly become a lot clearer.

~~~
liljimmytables
sorry to be the guy that gets picky about words, but i think you mean
contention rather than paradox

~~~
jmduke
Whoops -- yep, you're right! (In my defense, it's very early and I'm very bad
at words.)

~~~
yaddayadda
I actually think "paradox" is a perfectly acceptable word in the context used.
The common usage meaning - contradiction - is particularly apropos.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox)

edit: fixed nasty typo

~~~
foobarbazqux
But also the "paradox" in this situation is that it's perfectly doable to meet
the contradictory needs of value for customers and profit for investors at
once. Many such dilemmas have paradoxical both/and solutions.

------
bpatrianakos
What a crock. I get that some of this may be tongue in cheek but I really
despise this attitude. There's this sort of weird pseudo-religious belief that
by virtue of being involved in a startup you're somehow doing the world some
great good.

Your new social/local/mobile app isn't world changing no matter what kind of
hustler you are, no matter how much hype you put out, no matter how much money
you raise. Anyone can be a capitalist for good or bad whether its exploiting a
niche market segment on your own or with a startup.

I believe that regardless of whether you're on your own or do a startup, if
your motivation is purely financial you can still do the world great good.
Similarly, do-gooders with a grand vision can harm the world. Your stupid
little messaging app can connect people from around the world and change the
way people communicate (throw in some good crypto and you've done even more
good for private comms) or your energy startup that's supposed to change the
way we fuel our vehicles and provide clean cheap energy forever can end up
doing great harm to the environment or put millions out of jobs as a side
effect. These are obviously very hypothetical examples but the point is that
there's no "motivation + execution = ethical/unethical success" formula.

There's way too many shades of gray to even be able to consider generalizing
like this post does.

~~~
michaelerule
To me the generalizations in this article come across as ironic or satirical.

~~~
nicholassmith
It's a very tongue in cheek post, there's been a few posts from that blog
linked on HN and they've been very full of irony and satire.

------
snoonan
Ok, I'll speak up as a "PIH". There are a lot of ideas that help people that
will never touch VC money or can support a company with all of its overhead.
It's not out of laziness. It's how a great programmer should look at all
problems -- what here is redundant, manual and gets the most bang for the dev
time and CPU cycles?

When you're a team of 1, your I/O bandwidth is almost infinite. If it's all in
your brain, you don't have to explain anything, write anything down, have
meetings, draw on whiteboards, etc. Your available time to work collapses down
to solving specific business problems with every line of code or web page
update. Imagine a case where you never have to compromise, argue, make brain
dead concessions or spend resources on proving your position. Assuming you are
right, and have a good head for business, marketing and writing half-way
decent code, you can solve a small problem every efficiently. There are a lot
of $20k-200k problems out there to solve that are not worth it for a company
of any size to even touch.

------
applecore
Does Passive Income Hacker actually exist, or is this conversation a fantasy?

How many people are there making five figures ($10,000+) in profit a month
with their SaaS product? Working by themselves, for only "20 minutes a day",
with a full day of product development "every few weeks"?

~~~
ambiate
This number is really easy to pull of if you know how to sell yourself and be
social/on the offensive.

$150/month product that saves businesses $4,000/mo (one less programmer). Hard
part: Find 70 clients.

Working in industry, we demo products all the time. We pay outrageous amounts
of money for an online time tracker which is basically an online spreadsheet.
We have considered obtaining systems for managing accounting, supply, etc.

Focusing on our core business, policies, we never get tied up in 2-3
month/year adventures in uncomfortable territory. There is no innovation, just
maintenance. We use a 20 year old 4GL language assisted by native Python/C.

I could crank out Android apps in niches, write web content and advertise,
build a few cloud based web products (CAN IT EXPORT TO EXCEL!?!?!!!111), and
easily live off of 15-20k a month with huge fluctuations (both directions). I
choose the simple life of industry.

Not to mention, it is so hard to motivate yourself to go from start to end on
a product. Most of that energy was used in my late teens.

Right now, I could be cranking out that turn based strategy Google Glass
native app, because native apps with delays in turn taking are going to be the
key to Glass (it gets hot!). Instead, I'll just build another fixed width
extract with this day. It will run in 1/16th of the time of the original.
People will not notice or care until it breaks again. Ad absurdum.

I suppose its worth mentioning, I know a few who pull in 4-6k a month solely
on advertising/affiliates. Completely passive, they have months worth of posts
automated to go out every 2nd or 4th week. I've pulled off 1-2k using the same
method, but I always had a hard time finding microniches that were available
for _me_ to dominate. Writing about en pointe ballet, dremels, silver
polishing, simms fishing gear etc. is not my ideal goal. It did make money
though.

~~~
_delirium
_I could crank out Android apps in niches_

I hear this a lot, but are there numbers on how many people are managing it?
I.e. if you exclude apps put out by large companies, how many people are
earning $5k+/mo off Android apps? I don't even have a ballpark guess; is it 10
people? 10,000 people?

~~~
ambiate
When I first learned Java in school, I cranked out a couple of Android apps. I
coded one in 30 minutes. It currently has 24k active installs with a total of
125k people trying it out. Free. Horrible programming. No unit tests led to a
scenario where setting the alarm at midnight resulted in the wrong
calculation. People love the simplicity of it. People hate the simplicity of
it.

It has the potential to make $5-17/day. I'm guessing if I corrected/updated
the code, it would jump in rank. If I could generate 13-15 apps that fit into
this type of niche, I would easily reach $5k/month with lazy/horrible coding.
If I just sat there for one-two full month(s) churning out one app a day, I
would probably be able to reach that goal.

~~~
wtetzner
Just out of curiosity, what app is it?

~~~
ambiate
Sleep cycles, direct clone of sleepyti.me. Turns out ATNT branded phones don't
allow access to the hardware alarm clock. The app crashes on ATNT Galaxy S2s
(my original phone). Considering that was my first experience with Android, I
never looked at it again in a happy manner.

------
lifeisstillgood
What _is_ a passive income hacker. All I really understand is someone reading
the 4-hour work week, and then writing a fifty-dollar pdf on how to feed blue
canaries a vegetarian diet with really long sales letters.

I would quite like five figures a month working from starbucks, so if I am
missing a trick let me know

~~~
rdouble
They actually make their money off of the ebooks, seminars, boot camps and
other how-to materials about how to have passive income.

~~~
lifeisstillgood
Forget I asked - I simply cannot imagine going off to learn enough in the
grey-area to make it worthwhile. I will write decent software for a niche here
or there and see where we go.

~~~
nobodysfool
You don't even have to do that. You can buy the e-book with distribution
rights and make your own website to sell it, advertise on adwords, and away
you go. My dad did it, he was getting an extra $100 a month with no time
involvement at all. Once he got the paypal email his autoresponder would reply
with the ebook. The only thing he had to do was once a week or once a month
check his adwords account.

------
lukeholder
Can anyone identify a few example passive income apps that a single developer
has managed to support? I know of bingo card creator, but what are some
others?

~~~
davidwparker
Here's a few discussions that I've bookmarked and go back to, time-to-time for
inspiration:

Small Product, Single Founder Success Stories
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3029771](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3029771)

How much recurring income do you generate, and from what?
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2567487](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2567487)

Anyone making a living from just 1 app?
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1772199](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1772199)

Inspirational money making web apps made by hackers
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1764682](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1764682)

~~~
clarky07
@glanch you appear to be hellbanned, not sure why. I don't know what the offer
was, but it wasn't just "job offer," they bought his business and are
integrating it into their fantasy sports apps.

------
ilamont
_No, the business is bootstrapped._

Bootstrapping is not a crime.

 _So you just work out of coffee shops and stuff?_

Dumping the office or co-working space saves at least a few thousand dollars
per year in rent, and potentially transportation costs and commuting time as
well.

 _He 's not funded or seeking funding, he doesn't go to the networking events
and hasn't been through an accelerator._

I don't care for these things either. They tend to be time sucks and overly
focused on investors.

Look, I am skeptical of those Tim Ferris apostles whose "passive income"
businesses are based on spammy blogs, apps, and affiliate sites. But don't
sleight startup businesses because their methods of operation don't fit your
definition of a startup.

~~~
proland
I think you may have missed the subtext of the article.

~~~
ilamont
Yes, I did. Probably a bit too trusting and gullible. But the
bootstrapping/office comments pushed my buttons.

I started two companies. The first failed (1). During the year or so that I
was involved, I spent a lot of time doing startupy things - networking
sessions, hanging out at a coworking space in Cambridge, pitching, applying to
accelerators, etc. The local startup community, event organizers, angel
investors, the media, and some people affiliated with the local higher
education establishment encouraged this startup behavior (or startup theater).
I feel they looked down on any startup that didn't fit the mold.

Here's one small example: When you meet someone else in the local community,
one of the first questions they have is "Where are you based?" In my mind,
this is a test of legitimacy. "Real" startups say something like:

\- Kendall

\- Seaport

\- Cambridge Innovation Center

\- Dogpatch

\- The accelerator gives me a desk and WiFi.

I feel that founders who answer "Starbucks" "The Library" "Home" or "Virtual
Team" aren't taken seriously. That's how I feel now, at least, sitting in my
living room. Even though my 2nd company has products, profit, and growth (2),
it's not taken seriously as the first, which never had a dime in revenue but
was based in the CIC, applied to accelerators, etc.

1\. [http://www.ilamont.com/2012/10/failing-
hard.html](http://www.ilamont.com/2012/10/failing-hard.html)

2\.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6053105](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6053105)

~~~
outside2344
I'd answer this by saying "I work from home so that I can save those expenses
such that my business is profitable"

------
ezl
1\. The "unethical or lazy" is what the counterparty says to feel better about
their own lives when they're failing. It's human nature to want to believe
you're pursuing the best path.

2\. I don't understand why people like to draw such a hard distinction. It
doesn't upset me that some people prefer sushi to steak. People are entitled
to their own lifestyle choices without judgment of those who make alternate
choices. This isn't just a software/business/career choice issue. Paleo people
love telling everyone else that their diet is the best. Many vegetarians often
evangelize to others and imply there are serious moral imperatives at stake.
Just because someone isn't doing what you're doing doesn't make them "lazy" or
"unethical". On a side note -- I think "pursuing narrow arbitrage
opportunities" is often something someone would say with disdain, but that's
my flavor.

3\. Most startup people aren't particularly making the world a better place
anyways.

I'm sure a lot of that is written tongue in cheek, I loved it until the
"narrow arbitrage opportunities" and "lazy/unethical" ending.

~~~
squozzer
Yeah, here's my take on the labels --

unethical = someone who's more successful at making money / getting laid /
achieving their life goals than the person rending judgment.

lazy = someone who doesn't seem to sweat as much / act like an ass than the
person rending judgment.

------
maayank
"But what about dev, marketing, customer service etc?"

"I've automated 95% of the non-dev. The other 5% of non-dev I deal with in
about 20 minutes a day. Every few weeks I'll have a big dev day."

Any books/resources with _a lot_ of real world case studies? I'd be very
interested to hear many different accounts of such businesses. Here and there
you see it on HN, but is there one that has many together?

------
doctorfoo
Yay, now I have a label for what I am. A passive income hacker. I don't make a
lot (maybe $3K / month), but I work only ~half hour a day on my main money
spinner, answering support emails. (Plus, maybe a few months solid every year
or so on updating the tech.) I designed it so it doesn't have a DB or user
account system, to reduce the complexity and make it easier to scale by one
person with only certain skills. Users regularly ask for an account system. I
don't add it; I have competitors who do have an account system, and there's no
way I could compete with them by myself. A certain subset of users appreciate
the simplicity of my service.

When users email me support questions, they get a personal response from the
guy who made the thing. They probably don't realise either, since most
contacts start with "hey X team" or "hey X guys".

Having said that, I _do_ work a full day, on attempting to start other passive
incomes, and on more fun things that have less chance of earning. So I'm not
quite living a pure passive income dream yet.

------
OldSchool
Of all income sources, I have to say the passive sort is the most desirable
and scalable. You can have as many meaningful hobbies as you want if your
bills are paid, unrelated to your participation in commerce.

Sadly, risk-free investment returns have been decimated by 0% funds from the
US central bank. We can only hope that we are reaping more rewards through
active business as a result, but Fed policy has really punished those who have
been financially prudent.

------
lovesgreen
Sounds like jealousy. If you can automate the way you get money, you have 23
hrs and 40 minutes a day to do something without any profit motive for true
good. Startups, business, and making money don't have to be a religion.

Bill Gates will do more good with the money he made than he did by creating
software.

~~~
peterjancelis
I don't agree with that. The value of bringing the personal computer to the
masses is way higher than saving the lives of the bottom 1 billion.

~~~
pestaa
1 billion people would certainly disagree.

~~~
antitrust
I think what he's saying is that all seven billion of us benefited from the PC
revolution, where the bottom one billion may benefit (or may not) from Gates'
efforts.

It's an interesting ethical question. As with most questions, I don't know the
answer to it.

~~~
peterjancelis
Exactly. Also indirect effects, like how much more productive are cancer
researchers thanks to computers. Very hard to underestimate the importance of
computers.

------
pmelendez
"He's basically exploiting a narrow arbitrage opportunity and is probably
either unethical or lazy"

This sentence made me uneasy. I am not good identifying sarcasm so it might be
that but... How one would jump into that conclusion without knowing any
detail?

On the other hand, lazy is different from being not ambitious. I had several
friends like that (not making 5 figures per month though)and I find that is a
very legitimate way of live.

~~~
WayneDB
My wife can jump to conclusions without any details. She does it all the time
:)

~~~
culshaw
Wait, is my wife your wife?

~~~
sp332
If you were any good at jumping to conclusions, you wouldn't have to ask!

~~~
culshaw
What did you call my mother?

------
6ren
A self-running business seems cool and magical - like creating a living
thing... life! But, I think, for truly passive income (meaning it runs
itself), he's right that it does have to be some kind of arbitrage
opportunity, that will tend to stay around. By definition, it isn't
intrinsically interesting or satisfying. But, in itself, there's nothing wrong
with that.

OTOH, I'm not saying startup guying is the only solution - just that
satisfaction requires ongoing work. Once you complete your startup (for
example), you have to find something else to do - another startup, create
YC... something. Why not just do what you find satisfying in the first place?
It could be a startup. It could be just to make money (e.g. Warren Buffett
_loves_ making money). Or it might be something else.

Here's a twee story about a hand-to-mouth fisherman
[http://www.rinkworks.com/peasoup/richman.shtml](http://www.rinkworks.com/peasoup/richman.shtml)

~~~
DanBC
If you pick the right passive income thing it could provide the money you need
to do the work that you find interesting, which might not have any money in
it.

> Why not just do what you find satisfying in the first place?

The satisfying thing might not pay the bills.

~~~
6ren
Maybe. I think that satisfying work (stressing that it's "work" not just
pleasurable activity) will always be creating value. And value is valuable to
someone, in some way, hence there's a way to make money from it. Maybe not
very _much_ money...

A second problem is it might take time before that value is recognised. Hence,
the painter's, actor's "day-job". Passive income is a day job.

However, it's actually quite difficult to find a passive income niche, it's
work and risk to do it, they usually end up not being 100% passive after all,
and few niches are stable long-term (even huge enterprises don't last
forever).

------
rwalling
Oh man...he had me until he called thousands of people, many of whom I know
personally, "probably either unethical or lazy."

I think we can all agree that there are multiple ways to approach startups.

The misstep Myles makes is to assume that one approach is somehow superior to
another, and then take the further step of insulting everyone who is striving
for something different than what he sees as the best option.

We all have opinions on this topic, and it's an interesting discussion to
have. But let's try to avoid dogma and judgment.

What's right for your unique situation isn't necessarily right for the 100,000
other people with similar ambitions, but who may be in vastly different life
situations or just have different goals than you do.

Oh, and call me when you're 40, married with 2 kids and a mortgage, and you're
coding Perl for a bank because none of your startups made you the millions
that TechCrunch promised.

~~~
gottagetmac
What are you talking about? PIH is the Myles surrogate in that conversation.
He's making fun of Startup Guy for thinking that anyone who does what he
(Myles) is doing is "unethical or lazy."

~~~
rwalling
Oops...apologies to Myles if I mis-read this - I thought he was mocking the
PIH, taking the side of the startup guy.

~~~
gottagetmac
Myles in fact does have a small one-person low-intensity startup off which he
claims to make 5 figures per month. And don't you notice how he makes his
lifestyle sound really good, and the startup guy's judgments seem silly?

The funny part here is that you read this and actually agreed with Startup Guy
for almost all of it. (From the rest of the comments it seems like a lot of HN
did). That's part of his point, I guess.

------
icedchai
So, PIH has a profitable business. "Startup guy" is a bullshit artist.

------
arbuge
"He realizes that Passive Income Hacker (PIH) is not a hustler, he's not
funded or seeking funding, he doesn't go to the networking events and hasn't
been through an accelerator."

This article rubs me wrong. This paragraph really rubs me wrong. If you're
good at hustling for customers, you're a hustler where it matters. Funding
(non-customer funding i.e), networking events and accelerators are secondary -
lots of America's biggest businesses have been built without them.

The "passive income guy" described in the article reminds me of the Plenty of
Fish founder by the way. Most "startup guys" would probably kill to be in his
position...

~~~
clarky07
I think you're missing the sarcasm here... This is written from PIH point of
view making fun of what startup guy thinks of him. PIH agrees with you that
funding and accelerators aren't needed to be successful.

~~~
arbuge
So maybe I did. Better go back for some more coffee I guess.

~~~
vladmk
no its not just you, I wrote a similar comment. This guy who calls himself a
hacker actually fits the bill, most of the time criminals exhibit
schizophrenic characteristics and to no surprise he wrote a self serving
article making himself look good...now I guess I need to get back to my
startup before I turn into startup guy walking around coffee shops seeking
funding.

------
richardlblair
Unethical?? HAHAHAHA. PIH supports themselves, and their family. They aren't a
drain on the system, and owes nothing.

Realistically, Startup Guy is pissed because his photo sharing website that
allows you to apply filters isn't getting traction.

~~~
JimmaDaRustla
But he got the good domain name! Filterfy.io

/s

This outlook on both PIH and start ups is quite knaive/ignorant. PIH doesn't
want the inherent risk, and maybe responsibility, of a start up. This author
seems to criticize a developer who loves developing for not converting his
passion, and recklessly throwing himself into a managerial role.

Why does every idea have to be a startup?

------
10dpd
As someone whose Twitter account has been suspended as a result of using the
OP's "Passive Income" hack, I wish he would spend more time thinking the
project.

------
galactus
What do we win by promoting these caricatures?

------
makmanalp
I think it's just such a truism these days that every company has to (often
recklessly) aim for massive growth and fund that by selling off the company,
that there's just a lot of cognitive dissonance when you present that that's
not the only way companies can work.

It's not necessarily all derision, it's just the mind trying to reconcile new
information with old.

------
mhsutton
I found this post mildly amusing. It is a terribly simplified and mildly
offensive comparison of two sets of objectives. Neither of which are actually
right.

Startup is a phase - not a stereotype. Teams are not essential to either a
startup or what you term a PIH. The skills needed for the challenge are. Not
the number of people. Not all startups need nor want outside investment. Not
all startups have an idea that will change the world. Not all startups need,
want or are suitable for accelerators, incubators or other similar vehicles.
Startup is neither better nor worse than a single person building something to
improve their livelihood.

Best I can tell, the author equates a startup to what is popular in the press.
Young geeks, big rounds of capital raising, buzzwords galore, huge
acquisitions and all the hype that goes with it.

I think bunkum like this devalues the efforts of entrepreneurs everywhere and
demonstrates such a closed mind in a space where openness is increasingly
important.

------
nathas
How does one become a passive income hacker?

~~~
Iftheshoefits
Well, the simplest way is to toss a website up with some affiliate links.
Eventually you'll get a few hits, at least. Technically, then, you will have
earned some passive income, albeit not a lot.

To make it big, though, relies mainly on luck and the skill to recognize when
luck has provided an opportunity. For example, a lot of these people with
passive "affiliate" income are essentially very lucky that they recognized the
niche and were in a position to be able to exploit it better than (or at least
as good as) anybody else who tried--it's not common, or even 'infrequent'; I'd
say it's rare at best.

Or you can do what "everybody" else does: have a job (freelance or otherwise)
and, eventually, exploit your connections and network into a product (like
PIH's SaaS product) that produces passive income. This, of course, takes years
unless as in the above you are very lucky. Even then you have to have some
good fortune to maintain steady employment, not be hit with any of a number of
life's possible mishaps, etc.

Personally, I think passive income from, e.g. dividend paying equities in the
Gambler's Emporium known as the stock market are more likely to provide
regular passive income than hoping that working toward some hit affiliate
stream or niche software market will payoff without luck.

~~~
snoonan
Passive income != affiliate income. That may come from the internet marketing
guru "buy my course" crew being very vocal about selling a certain dream. Some
succeed, but there's more money reliable money in building a real business.

~~~
Iftheshoefits
Of course the set of things that generate passive income is not restricted to
the affiliate element only. It includes things like writing an eBook,
developing an App for desktop/mobile/web, etc., that one doesn't intend to
maintain, or the ratio of time spent in maintenance or working on the
product(s) to free time is very small (which is, of course, subjective).
Dividend paying stocks or investments in other funds are truly passive--they
require zero effort that could be called "work".

As soon as one begins to maintain or attempt to expand these things, however,
it's no longer really passive. In fact, "building a business" necessarily
implies direct action.

------
raverbashing
"Worst of all, PIH is probably not trying to make the world a better place
through technology. He's basically exploiting a narrow arbitrage opportunity
and is probably either unethical or lazy."

Really, really? Regrettable

This looks like the kind of dreamy SG that only wants to do "good"(by his
definition) and doesn't have an attainable goal.

Or the startup guys that want to use the latest and "greatest" so he writes
version 1 with whatever.js and when he's about to launch he decided to rewrite
everything in drunk_pangolin.js "because of integrity" (except that
drunk_pangolin.js is still in version 0.1, has 1 part time developer and no
docs)

------
liam_boogar
The stereotypes are funny, and startups, by nature, will always be filled with
a majority of hustlers, but it may also inadvertently lump an entire group of
startup founders -past,present and future- into the "SG pile," whom I think
don't belong there.

That being said: i think i've heard this conversation and event had it (sadly,
from the SG side in my less-educated days), and I think this conversation is
intended to force people to ask themselves "am I a poser or do I want money?"
which is a false dichotomy.

I'd rather look at people who want to make money by creating value vs. people
who want make money by creating perceived value.

------
vladmk
Am I the only one who dislikes this post because of the assumptions it makes
on startup founders? Statistically most startups are bootstrapped, this was
written by someone who is arguably caught up in the silicon valley hype, you
don't need to get funded for everything...Also the other guy has obviously
built something called a "lifestyle business" google it if you don't know what
that is, the noob startup guy is way too nooby to know what that is. Unless
the hacker guy is a hacker and is doing something illegal, I don't see why the
conversation should get awkward...

------
PhasmaFelis
Huh, are there actually Startup Guys who want to "make the world a better
place through technology?" I thought the basic plan was "build and maintain an
amazing, indispensable service for exactly long enough to get bought out by
Google/Microsoft/Yahoo/Apple, then retire to Tahiti while the new owners fire
everyone and ruin the product."

e.g. Siri before Apple: [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/22/siri-do-
engine-appl...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/22/siri-do-engine-apple-
iphone_n_2499165.html)

~~~
rdouble
Your summary does not describe the story of Siri in the linked article
accurately at all.

~~~
PhasmaFelis
No? Obvious hyperbole aside (no one retired to Tahiti that I'm aware of), it
seems pretty close. A company built an extremely ambitious, bleeding-edge app,
sold some early copies, were preparing to roll it out on every meaningful
platform, then got a fat check from a tech giant and promptly became platform-
exclusive, ripped out a lot of the more interesting features, and fucked over
their early adopters. (The folks who paid actual money for the Siri app on the
iPhone 4 were not amused when the app suddenly announced that it was disabling
itself and they'd have to buy a new phone to keep using it.)

And, really, how many times have you heard someone say something like "Man,
that service has gone to shit since Yahoo bought it"? It seems to come up
pretty frequently. I'm sure there are entrepreneurs with actual integrity
regarding their startups, but it seems like a lot of the big success stories
end with "and then we sold to Google for $100 million, we win, the end."

~~~
rdouble
That's not what the article is about, though. It's almost like you didn't even
read it.

~~~
PhasmaFelis
It's not the primary focus of the article, no. There's not that much
documented writing on Siri-before-Apple. This was the best single source I
could find for the facts I cited, all of which are in that article.

------
Hydraulix989
What's so bad about being "Passive" Income Guy? This guy is out there
monetizing with his self-bootstrapped "boring" SaaS that has real customers,
while Startup Guy has blown through multiple rounds of investors' money with
his quixotic third-pivot "change the world idea" that still hasn't earned a
single penny but is being regularly pitched at circle-jerk networking events
to the other benchwarmer wantrepreneur spectators banking on some highly
improbable IPO. Wait, who did you say was unethical, lazy, and not a hustler
again?

~~~
mkrecny
OP here. I guess it wasn't clear from the article that I am a passive income
hacker, and that I'm poking fun at startup guy.

------
MitziMoto
I honestly cannot figure out which guy (PIH or SG) this article is "making fun
of" (maybe it's both?). I've read it twice now, and it can kind of go both
ways.

Maybe that's the point.

------
duncanwilcox
Counterpoint (old but relevant):

[http://blog.wilshipley.com/2011/04/success-and-farming-vs-
mi...](http://blog.wilshipley.com/2011/04/success-and-farming-vs-mining.html)

The article paints non-startup guys as parasites. That's so needlessly
polarizing.

The more common definition of the Passive Income Hacker is "lifestyle
business", i.e. a business where you don't seek a 10-100x exit.

Personally I think if all you've done or plan on doing is an app or website,
calling it a startup is kind of silly.

~~~
drone
_The more common definition of the Passive Income Hacker is "lifestyle
business", i.e. a business where you don't seek a 10-100x exit._

I have to disagree with this one, of all of the people I know that have
"lifestyle businesses," they were as committed to the early stages and
aggressive as most of the "startup" guys I know. While some of them, after
years of work, got to "minimal interaction with the business," most of them
still work it hard for a standard week. The only difference between them and
the "start-up guy," is they don't ever want to exit.

I've always seen the PIH "movement" (if we can call it that), much more
opportunistic than many "lifestylers" \- there's a big difference between
being committed to something for life, and and trying to find a way to make
money by doing as little as possible.

That last part is not to say that all PIH's are opportunists working on things
that make money even if they could care less about them - but the movement is
distinct from that of "lifestyle" business, where the goal is to make enough
for a good life, doing something you enjoy/love.

------
jackschultz
So what if startup guy disagrees with the choices of PIH? This is another
example of conflicting ideologies, and luckily, no one can do something about
it. Imagine if there was a politician who didn't like the approach PIH was
taking and worked to ban it because he didn't like it. This seems very
farfetched, but there are examples of this happening. The ones that come to
mind are the banning of sharing recourses, like AirBnB or any ride share
program.

~~~
vladmk
aka bitcoin miners vs the government :D

------
isaacb
This started out so well and I was hoping it would end along the lines of
"different hackers with different goals," but steered way off course to some
vitriolic attack on the casual hacker lifestyle.

I think if anything, bootstrapping your product to success is far more
respectable than taking large sums of seed funding and potentially throwing it
all away when you find that your market doesn't even exist.

------
sockgrant
It was a great read, until the end where in the last sentence it was really
ambiguous whether he was being sarcastic about "He's basically exploiting a
narrow arbitrage opportunity and is probably either unethical or lazy."

Everything was so obviously tongue in cheek until that point.

But, the ambiguity was actually welcome because it forces the reader to wonder
and in turn choose their position.

It's a fun read.

------
readme
>Worst of all, PIH is probably not trying to make the world a better place
through technology. He's basically exploiting a narrow arbitrage opportunity
and is probably either unethical or lazy.

Is this supposed to be what "startup guy" thinks, or is it also the opinion of
the author? Seems like a pretty jarring assumption, if you ask me.

~~~
sard420
Some people just have that attitude, if you don't dedicate yourself 100% to
your work (read my company) then your just some lazy pos, because "surviving"
and "thriving" is lazy. Where you know PTSD, and mental health issues for a
salary is pulling yourself up by the bootstraps.

~~~
yankoff
There's also an opposite extreme. Some people think that spending time on your
work (company, project) should take not more than 5-10% of your time, the rest
you should spend hiking, traveling, singing or whatever else that doesn't have
to do with tech. It seems that for such people tech is not the main area of
interests and they can't understand that things can be different for other
people.

------
rdouble
This was like reading an excerpt of the HN version of "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" but
with the opposite conclusion.

------
nilkn
Really amazed at the number of commenters who didn't pick up on the sarcasm.

But, honestly, how many developers are there making five figures a month in
profit passively (more or less)? That is an extreme amount of success, far
beyond what most people will ever enjoy in their life.

------
allinzen
As a former passive income hustler turned startup guy - this is so true.
What's most important is to be comfortable with what you do regardless of
others opinions. That's the one thing I could do without in start up land. The
prosthelytizing.

------
vvpan
This article is arrogant and pretentious. Come on, it trivializes one side
while glorifying the other beyond reasonable. It seems to say that if you work
on a startup you are the cool kid, and otherwise you are loser. Just like high
school.

~~~
Bognar
It seems you've missed the point. The article is still arrogant and
pretentious but also sarcastic. The writer sees himself as a Passive Income
Hacker.

~~~
vladmk
you missed obnoxious I'd add obnoxious in there too.

------
kennstone
:D, Get Income invest on your own business, then get customer to make it grow.
It must more satisfied then look up for investor :)

Btw you must see in the end, is there FBI or any kind police knock on your
door :p

So make sure your business clean!!! Cheers

------
bluekite2000
I m a developer in New York. I have a few good engineer friends I met while
living in Vietnam. If any of you here happens to have a product that qualifies
as a passive income product and need a tech partner let me know.

------
rubiquity
Startup-ers can be some of the most self-important people on the planet.
"Passive Income Hacker" is making a living for himself and quite possibly his
family as well. There's a lot of nobility in that.

------
iblaine
I have to disagree with this post. Passive Income Hackers are usually hustlers
with more street smarts than technical skills. Startup Hackers are the
opposite.

------
purephase
I so want to be a PIH. I just can't get enough free time to put my shit
together as my day job sucks it all away.

~~~
felixvolny
Quit.

~~~
antinitro
Maybe good advice, but I'd recommend having a few months wages as a cushion.

~~~
snoonan
Better to have an MVP and a few customers (paid or expressed paid interest)
first. That's what I did + the cushion.

------
joshtronic
as a PIH and a father, I have to chime in and mention that my lazy & unethical
self gets to spend a great deal more [quality] time with the family now that
I'm no longer working 24/7 at a startup. sadly, no one ever gets man of the
year for being a good parent.

------
gravedave
Passive income always sounded to me like either a fantasy or a career of
ripping people off.

------
unlimit
Loved it, brought a smile to my face. This is exactly what I am trying to do.

------
brendoncrawford
Changing the world is the new blinking text, or rounded corners.

------
kbenson
I love how his comments section _is_ hacker news.

~~~
solistice
Hacker News makes for a really good comment section.

------
chenster
The last line I suspect is out of utter jealous.

~~~
ignostic
I suspect you missed the sarcasm. (The author is PIH)

------
wnevets
I would rather be the PIH, how do I become him?

------
ivanhoe
making the world a better place... mostly for themself, though...

------
guard-of-terra
"Worst of all, PIH is probably not trying to make the world a better place
through technology. He's basically exploiting a narrow arbitrage opportunity
and is probably either unethical or lazy."

Is this serious? It's epically funny if it is.

Even if PIH is trying to make world a better place, he doesn't have to do that
on his "billed" time. He has a lot of time to spare for that.

~~~
adregan
True. Maybe he/she mentors a child in his/her spare time.

~~~
glugglug
We do have gender neutral pronouns of a sort: "True. Maybe they mentor a child
in their spare time."

~~~
jastreich
They is technically plural. There is no good singular gender neutral pronoun.
So, "he/she", "s/he", "he" or "they" are fine by me; we know what the author
means.

~~~
steveklabnik
Where 'technically' means 'people have used it as both singular and plural but
some people like to argue'
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they)

------
superconductor
I tried doing the passive income thing. I set up dozens of blogs with adsense,
amazon affiliate links and sold software.

What happened surprised me: it was soul-crushing. I felt dirty. Turns out that
meaningful work is what fulfills me. Making "free" hands-off money doesn't
excite or inspire me. Totally a learning experience.

~~~
yankoff
Exactly. Some people keep promoting the "virtue" of having a passive income
and being able to not work at all. It seems to me that they can't wrap their
heads around the idea that some actually enjoying working on their projects
every day, building something and improving from day to day.

~~~
jbjohns
For me, the goal of passive income is flexibility. Sure, I would hope that I
wouldn't have to work if I didn't want to. But it would also mean I could work
on anything that interested me. I have a huge list of projects I've wanted to
work on forever but will never have time if I don't find a way into financial
flexibility.

------
Dewie
It is apparent from the comments here that many don`t realize that the author
is being sarcastic. I wonder what it is about the delivery that this fact
isn't obvious enough? Because I think that there has to be something with the
article if so many interpret the tone of it incorrectly.

~~~
mtoddh
_It is apparent from the comments here that many don`t realize that the author
is being sarcastic._

From Wikipedia's page on Asperger Syndrome, under Speech and Language: traits
include "literal interpretations and miscomprehension of nuance". Makes me
wonder when I see threads like this...

