
Ask HN: How do you deal with alienation? - daniel_
How do you deal with social alienation? Over the past couple of years of high school, I've slowly lost contact with all of my friends. Whenever I do speak with them, I constantly think about the differences between me and them, and why I'm not friends with them anymore. Despite that, I'm so alone now that I desperately want to have a peer group to be with again.
The problem is that the only people I consider to be good friends all have different interests, and all belong to different social groups. I have no social group of my own and go back and forth between their friend circles. It seems that their respective friend circles are very close knit.I always feel like the odd one out of whatever group I'm with at the time.<p>I don't think I could consider my close friends a social group of it's own, as they are all from different groups and aren't friends with each other.<p>Am I setting my standards for friends too high? I don't think I am, because I just want a friend that I can talk to on a wide variety of subjects, not just the few we have in common. I can't do that with anyone I know. I feel like when I talk to my "friends", I either have to talk all about computers, or all about music, or whatever that they're interested in, but never a mixture of everything. The peer groups I see are all so specialized and serve niche interests; none of them are generally interested in everything.<p>I feel even worse about this, because I think that because I am feeling like this, that it makes me a walking adolescent stereotype. I feel like just another Holden, which probably makes the entire situation worse. I'm being self-conscious about myself being self-conscious, so that probably doesn't help.<p>I feel like I can recognize the flaws in how I handle friendships, but I have no idea of how to solve them.<p>The only thing that feels like a solution is waiting until I am out of high school to find new people. Everyone has told me to wait until college, and then I will find new people, but everyone I know in college generally sticks with the same friend group that they had in high school (hence why I would know), so I don't have much hope in that.<p>How do you go about meeting new interesting people? How do you stop yourself from over-analyzing your current friendships? I never post here on HN, but I love reading the articles and discussions, and you seem like a wise and interesting bunch of people. Please give me your advice. Whenever I try to talk to people in person about this, they just tell me that they don't know what to say, and I can't stand talking to psychologists because they seem to just regurgitate what you want to hear repeatedly.<p>Where are the truly interesting people in life?
======
numair
Don't try to meet people like you. Instead, become interested in lots of
different types of people, how they live, who they are, etc. And don't just
become interested, but actually make an attempt to blend into their cultures,
social groups, etc. This is what is known as "social hacking." Successfully
doing this will allow you to incorporate lots of different points of view in
your work and life, which will give you a richer experience. Sticking to
people who are all "good" at one thing inevitably leads to dysfunctionality
and irrelevance.

Oh, and don't try to look for smart people. Half of those people we label as
"smart" are actually complete idiots. Just because society currently describes
people who can type mathematically-intensive instructions to a machine as
"smart" does not mean that they are any more intelligent than the person who
has dedicated their time to understanding social nuance and child-rearing, or
whatever. A lot of "dumb", "average" people are a lot smarter than you at many
things; cooking, talking to girls, changing a flat tire, whatever... Learn to
enjoy this.

And finally, whatever you do, do NOT attempt to surround yourself with people
who consider themselves "interesting." That's the absolute WORST. There's
nothing worse than a group of people who sit around and congratulate
themselves for being so cool and important - which is exactly why so many
people in positions of power, feeling that they have "arrived" and can thus
finally mingle with people worthy of their mystical talents, are so utterly
impotent at accomplishing anything of significance. But hey, if you really
want to smoke pot with Bono on his yacht and pretend you're saving the world,
go for it. (That's not a joke, by the way. He really does that.)

~~~
midnightmonster
> Don't try to meet people like you. Instead, become interested in lots of
> different types of people

[http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/wayoflife/07/28/mf.mrrogers.n...](http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/wayoflife/07/28/mf.mrrogers.neighbor/index.html)

Mr. Rogers inspires me. Seriously. Check out #6.

~~~
jmatt
Excellent point. Most interesting people are inherently curious about
everything.

------
rkts
I was thinking of posting a question very similar to this one, though the
details of my situation are pretty different.

See, I've been alone for most of my life. Alone in the sense that I've only
ever had two or three real friends, and I often go for weeks without having a
conversation with another person.

As a kid I was fine with this. I was the guy who always sat by himself during
lunch and recess, and nobody bothered me and I felt fine. I stayed the same
until my senior year of high school, when I was struck by a burning need to
make friends, meet girls and stop being alone all the damn time. I made some
friends that year, but we were high school seniors, so we all moved off to
college and I never heard from them again.

Now I'm in my third year of college, I have no friends and I can't believe how
hard it is to meet people. Though I guess the problem isn't _meeting_ people
specifically, but getting the acquaintances I make to turn into friendships. I
just don't seem to really click with anyone.

"You should join an organization for something you're into!" Well, I've looked
but 90% of the organizations I see are racial, religious or political, and the
rest just don't interest me. If I could find, say, an OCaml or Lisp
programmers group, or an early music society, I'd be thrilled, but of course
there isn't one. Maybe I'm just a narrow person, I don't know.

Hmm... I'm not sure now why I'm posting this, but I typed it so what the hell.
_submit_

~~~
rodrigo
You're being narrow. Of course we all want people like us to talk with, but
thats not the rigth attitude. Just talk with someone, try to find whats
interesting about them, place yourself in his/her shoes and try to see what
makes them tickle and then talk about it, youll find that you can almost
always learn something.

~~~
asdflkj
Sure, you can learn something, but will that something be worth the effort?
That's the $64k question here, and I believe the answer for most people is
"no."

Being alone sucks, but before you kill the pain with the companionship of
idiots, you should ask if the cure is worse than the disease. Looking back, I
regret time spent on idiots a lot more than time spent alone. YMMV, of course.

------
jhancock
"Where are the truly interesting people in life?"

everywhere. My network of friends includes less than 10% that work in IT. Most
are not geeks but are ok with the fact that I am as I accept and don't really
define what they are. I just enjoy their company.

I had a friend that worked on the documentary series where they interviewed a
group of people each year for, well, I forget how long, but a long time. I
can't remember the series at the moment. The obvious question I had was "How
did you pick the group of people to interview for such a long project? You
need to make sure you pick potentially interesting people, right?"

My friend told me that my intuition was not correct. It turns out it didn't
matter, everyone is interesting.

------
DavidHogan
If I could send my teen self some advice, it would be to _relax_ and simply
persue the topics that interest me. All else will fall into place.

Hope this helps :)

~~~
Tichy
Oh yeah, if only I had known... ;-)

------
gojomo
You may want to reexamine potentially self-limiting assumptions:

 _I always feel like the odd one out_ \-- you may be partially imagining this
'odd man out' status; also, others you see as 'close knit' may feel just as
tenuously connected as you do.

 _my close friends [are not] a social group... they are all from different
groups and aren't friends with each other_ \-- have they met? what if you made
them a group around you?

 _I can't [talk on a wide variety of subjects] with anyone I know_ \-- are you
sure? what happens if you try? maybe they are so nervous about going off-
script they're sticking to safe topics, too, and would welcome a change.

 _The peer groups I see are all so specialized... none of them are generally
interested in everything_ \-- are you sampling all peer groups? do you see
them in all their expressions? is there a chance you've defined 'peer group'
as 'sharing narrow common interests', and thus it's impossible for you to see
other kinds of peer groups, even right in front of you?

 _I can recognize the flaws in how I handle friendships_ \-- what if you're
misdiagnosing the issues?

 _I don't have much hope in [waiting until college]_ \-- consider the
possibility 'everyone' else is right in ther advice, and those people who
don't find close friends in the contrived HS environment do find them in
college and other non-HS activities.

'The map is not the territory'; your analysis may have prematurely converged
on counterproductive (but self-reinforcing) conclusions.

Stepping away from your exact words: you seem to think of friend groups almost
like formal clubs, that preexist, with clear memberships and standards, that
have to invite new people in.

Try instead the assumption that they are _all_ ad hoc, popping in and out of
existence, with ever-changing memberships, and open to anyone who shows up.
You belong the moment you decide you belong, and others will assume you're
'in' unless you take explicit steps to opt out.

------
SwellJoe
_I either have to talk all about computers, or all about music, or whatever
that they're interested in, but never a mixture of everything. The peer groups
I see are all so specialized and serve niche interests; none of them are
generally interested in everything._

Think on that statement for a little while, and maybe you'll see the source of
your trouble. This is kind of a growing up phenomenon. You aren't unique in
this regard.

You seem to expect your friends to be a perfect clone of you, with the same
interests (you have a few things that you're interested in; you are not a
"mixture of all things"). The older you get, the more you'll realize that
sharing one or two interests with someone is enough, as long as you enjoy each
others company. You may find a few "soul mate" type friends in college, who
like the same bands you like, who enjoy the same activities, are nerdy, etc.
If you go to a school that specializes in nerdy subjects it's actually very
likely, whereas if you go to the local party school, it is very unlikely. So,
yes, it may get a lot better in college--but then when college is over, you'll
still have to be able to build relationships without that forced captivity
thing, so you might as well develop the skill now.

The best way I know is to get involved in something you like. If it's music,
start a band. If it's nerdy stuff, start a group that builds crazy nerdy crap
and call it art. If it's theatre, join a local company or take classes. If
it's a sport, join a league. If it's drinking heavily, start tailgating at
football games.

I'm deeply introverted and a loner (and mostly I like it that way), but
whenever I've felt the need to expand my social circle I've usually started a
band, and right away my circle of friends expands dramatically. I happen to
love talking about, listening to, and performing, music...so this works out.
If you find that people who only talk about one thing are tedious, this can be
a problem...so I guess you'll need to figure out something that you don't mind
_only_ talking about for a few hours each week, so that you can do it
regularly enough to experience a bond with folks.

 _Where are the truly interesting people in life?_

I don't know. What do you mean by "truly interesting"? Are _you_ truly
interesting? Does everyone in your life have to be _truly_ interesting for you
to want them as friends? I'm empathetic to your position on this, as I kinda
suck at having and keeping friendships alive, too, and it's partly because I
find most people tedious after an hour or two of their company. But, I'm old
enough to realize that no one is perfect, including me. Some of the most
interesting people I've ever met (including a handful of famously interesting
folks) are _still_ not people I would want to spend several hours a day with.

There's also something I've learned only in the past couple of years: When a
conversation falls flat, it's always as much my fault as it is the person I'm
talking to. As dumb or slow or weird or bland as the person I'm talking to may
be, there is almost certainly _something_ I can do to make it more interesting
for both of us. Maybe it's just telling a joke, and being funny (because being
entertaining is as much fun for the entertainer as the entertainee). Maybe
it's introducing the person to someone else, and making the pair into a trio
or more. pg is hilariously and famously good/bad at this (anyone who's spent
more than an hour or two with him has heard the words, " _This_ is the guy you
need to talk to!").

 _How do you stop yourself from over-analyzing your current friendships?_

Do something else. If you find yourself thinking too hard about something
dumb, like, "Are my friends smart/interesting enough?" Call them up and go do
something that you enjoy with them. That'll answer the question, because
they've just shown that they're smart/interesting enough to do whatever it is
you enjoy, and it'll take your mind off of the wacky self-analysis. Of course,
if they all bail on the idea and don't want to leave the house or something,
then it answers the question as well...in the other direction. Find more
interesting friends who like to do stuff. Doing stuff is actually a really
good cure for a lot of mental blocks. I recommend it. It doesn't even matter
what stuff. Ride bikes, go bowling, serve soup at the local homeless shelter,
build big art, put on silly clothes and golf, etc.

~~~
daniel_
Oh wow. I never expected this many replies... But anyways, thank you for the
advice. I guess I am expecting people to be like me, which I realize is a bit
ridiculous, now that you point it out. I think I've been doing a little bit of
what you said about trying to find people... I took up an internship at a
public radio station because I thought the people there would be interesting,
and the people there are great, but the age difference between me and everyone
can be a bit awkward at times. I guess I need to repeat that kind of scenario
where I put myself out there to meet new people.

You're absolutely right about doing stuff as a good cure for mental blocks. I
got a road bike and started going for daily rides, and that helped a bit.

~~~
SwellJoe
_I took up an internship at a public radio station because I thought the
people there would be interesting, and the people there are great, but the age
difference between me and everyone can be a bit awkward at times._

Excellent! Don't dismiss the old-timers. Some of the most interesting people
I've ever known have been a lot older than me. In fact, actually, most of the
truly interesting folks I've know have been older than me--they've just had
more time to acquire crazy and funny stories. I took a job at an independent
television station when I was in college, and that was a great experience (it
got acquired by the WB, now CW, while I was there, and the character of the
station changed and most of the old-timers left). Several of the folks I
worked with had been involved in _building_ the tower and broadcast station
back in the sixties. Those old guys (and one gal) had some fantastic stories
about the birth and growth (and changing mores, like the fact that smoking pot
in master control on the night shift was accepted practice in the 70's) of the
station, and had a lot of interesting insight into technology and changes;
they'd seen the station go from film to analog video of multiple types to
digital video, along with the introduction of satellites and other wonders of
modern technology.

Work past the awkward, be friendly and interested in their stories (fake it
till you make it), and you'll probably learn something about making friends
with folks who _aren't_ exactly like you. Older folks are also more likely to
be able and willing to make up for your lack of social graces. Generally, the
older you get, the less clique-oriented you become...you might get more set in
your ways in a lot of regards, but older folks tend to be happier to talk to
new and different people, especially if the new people are truly interested in
what they have to say.

Another interesting old-timer story: A friend of mine worked with a lady who
was maybe 10-15 years older than her. They became friends, because they were
both vegetarian, and had a few other things in common. Turns out the lady was
Jimmy Dale Gilmore's (probably best known as Smokey from The Big Lebowski
outside of Texas, but he's a famous Grammy-wielding country musician) wife.
You want interesting stories? Ask an old music star. Point is, you never know
who you're going to find when you actually get to know someone.

Anyway, the old-timers aren't generally going to be your best friends, of
course. But, socializing merely for the sake of socializing is good for you.

~~~
jaytee_clone
Old-timers (the cool ones) also don't have stupid social hangups, so they
really know how to have fun.

Plus, when it comes time to network for your start-up, old-timers tend to have
a lot more connections and resources too.

------
jmatt
Wow, this sounds soo familiar. I remember having similar thoughts when I was
in high school. I'll try to give some useful advice.

 _I have no social group of my own and go back and forth between their friend
circles._

I'd ignore social groups entirely. Seriously, just forget any of these
artificial groups of friends. I know that's not actually possible but in
general don't worry about it. When I look back at the stratification of my
high school social order it seems like it was straight out of "lord of the
flies". Interact with the people who are doing interesting things. People who
you find interesting or enjoy spending time with. Don't join any friend
groups, that's an entirely isolating situation. Right now you can freely
"group" with whoever you want.

 _Everyone has told me to wait until college, and then I will find new people,
but everyone I know in college generally sticks with the same friend group
that they had in high school (hence why I would know), so I don't have much
hope in that._

Don't go to college where everyone else is going to college. Get away from all
this. I did, and it was one of the best decisions I made when I was a
teenager. Everyone in high school will likely think you are crazy for not
going to the usual schools, but who cares.

I think the single best thing you can do is just get out and... do things.
This is surprisingly simple but will really make a difference. I think it's
been echoed here already by a number of other people. Pickup a new sport, go
see a movie, go to clubs, take classes at the community college, go on a road
trip (gas is affordable again!), see a concert you would otherwise not see,
play cards, go to a house party, study with people you usually wouldn't study
with, volunteer somewhere, go to a museum, get an unusual part-time job, do
something that no one else is doing. Go buy a copy of Make magazine and pick a
project (<http://www.makezine.com/>). Before you know it, you'll be the
interesting person that other people will want to spend time with.

And of course read PG's take on high school and nerds:
<http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html> Somehow this hasn't been linked to in
the post. I know it represents my high school experiences very well and he
gives great advice.

~~~
mnemonik
Good call on Make Magazine! I suggest that daniel_ start a project that he
will probably need help with, and meet new people through the project. Tons of
fun to be had from that magazine, I wish I had time to pursue all the DIY
projects I could, oh well.

------
delano
Interesting people are everywhere and nowhere. You find them one by one.

Feeling alienated sucks but you might find that not belonging to just one
group is one of your strengths. It can give you a unique perspective because
you have a wider range of experiences. It can also increase your tolerance for
change and uncertainty. People that stay in groups tend to want things to stay
the same and you don't meet interesting people in Berlin or Beijing by staying
the same.

And you may want to reconsider your thoughts about psychologists. They are a
great resource for figuring out how you feel because they're trained listeners
and neutral to your situation. Sometimes you need to try out a couple before
you find one that you find helpful.

~~~
jm3
Interesting people are everywhere. You find them by BEING one. And by
listening to everything.

~~~
delano
My point is that it's not a determinate process.

------
mikeyur
I'm 17 and I have a bunch of good friends, and guess what? None of them share
my main interests.

I'm geeky, I love my mac, I love podcasts, etc. My friends aren't crazy about
computers really. A person I consider my best friend is really into cars,
mechanics, etc. I'm really into SEO/marketing/startups.

The reason we get along is because we don't have a lot of the same interests.
I get along with him because he's a good person, fun to hang out with and
compliments me (as cheesy and fruity as this all sounds).

Stop looking for that person who is your clone. I have geeky friends that I
meet with at local events, coffee shops, etc - but none of these people are my
day to day good friends.

You also need some good online friends. Some may not agree, but I think having
friends online is great. I have about 3 really good friends online who
compliment me and who I talk to almost daily about.. whatever. I've known some
of them for over 3yrs online. Some I have met in person, some I haven't. You
obviously don't want to spend all day online but having a few of these friends
and people to talk to is always good in my mind.

~~~
Elepsis
Not to be a pedant, but this post really doesn't read right when you keep
using the word 'compliment' when you mean 'complement.' It makes you sound
self-obsessed.

That said, online friends are definitely not a substitute for real life ones,
but it's not a bad way to build a group of people you can use as an always
available sounding board for the random crap that pops into your head.

For the OP, the thing about people is that talking about the one thing you
have in common is _easy_. No one really only has a single interest, but you
have to actually spend quite a bit of time with people to get them to open up
and start sharing more about themselves. You'd be surprised by the kinds of
people you'll find yourself having things in common with if you have the
chance to get to know them.

------
jwilliams
_Where are the truly interesting people in life?_

If you haven't already - Travel, move overseas, etc - the world is a big
place.

Sounds trite, but broad horizons help.

~~~
tomsaffell
I'll second this, and add:

1.Traveling alone will help you to meet new people.

2.Do this with the objective of evolving your view of how humans work, not
making specific life-long friends (though of course, that is possible).

3.Hitch-hiking is even better for meeting people and learning about people. In
a way, a discussion with a lone driver in their own car is much like an
accelerated version of making a friend. Hitch hiking is tough in the US, but
easier elsewhere.

4\. Keep looking for people who are similar to yourself. At my high school
<10% of people were similar to me. At my college >50% of people were similar
to me. It was like night and day. It may not be college for you, but it's
somewhere.

------
mdakin
I think the type of friend you want is rare. But there is hope-- these people
want to find you as much as you want to find them! Do what it takes to meet
and get to know as many people as possible. I don't mean to befriend them all
by any means but get to know them, try to understand them etc. Develop an
interest in people and in relating to people IN GENERAL. Do not have
expectations of amazing connections. Be in the moment. By that I mean you
should be putting your full-self into the interaction. And you should be
spontaneous and follow the intuitive flow of the situation rather than
fixating on preconceived ideas you may have. Just like when you're debugging
code. All focus on that person. What they are saying, how they are saying it,
etc. Talk and respond. Monitor their feelings and adjust what you're saying
and how you're saying it to make things go smoothly and interestingly for all.
Monitor your feelings. Is this person making you feel slow, annoyed, sad? Or
are they making you feel excited, "CAN!", surprised, etc? Take that
information into account when "valuing" people. Someone who has different
interests but makes you feel excited and enthusiastic is of much greater value
than a carbon copy of yourself. Esp. if you're doing the same thing for them
by a different magic mechanism. It's yin-yang. Lookout for that more than
anything else. Good luck! And don't worry about feeling like a Holden.
Holden's a good guy just a little immature. And being the catcher in the rye
is a mighty good plan and one way to realize just what I'm suggesting. Not for
everyone of course but helping the good and innocent can yield great
satisfaction.

------
zupatol
I think you are giving too much importance to the kind of subjects you discuss
with friends. The important thing is that you get along well, not what you are
talking about.

Part of what you say sounds like the trouble of growing up. There is an age
when what interests you automatically interests your friends. When I was a
kid, other kids I met were usually open enough to get interested in whatever I
was interested in, and we could easily have shared passions. These interests
were also more shallow and less complicated than those I developed later. I am
39 now, and at my age everybody seems so specialized that they rarely pick up
new interests. This is compensated by the lesser importance interests take in
a friendship. I met some of my best friends because they make comics, like me.
When I see them nowadays, we almost never speak about comics. I have
practically no common interests with my wife, but we get along fine.

Maybe you have not found a psychologist that fits you, but a good one could be
helpful. Their job is not to tell you what you want to hear, but often they
will repeat what you say to make sure they understand you correctly. I went to
see a psychologist once when I had a depression. I think what helped me most
was to have a relation to someone I could trust. Feeling less lonely could be
enough to get rid of some of the problems you mention, like thinking too much
about the differences between you and your friends. Building a relationship is
something a psychologist should really be good at, and seeing how he does it
with you can help you with others.

------
FlorinAndrei
It's all in the deeper layers of your brain.

Look at all the "popular" people you know - individuals with lots of friends,
a pretty busy social life, etc. What makes them like that? Easy: when they
interact with people, the things that light up in their brains are all sorts
of pleasure centers and reward sites and parts of the brain that generate
positive emotions, and stuff like that. I don't know the proper names for
those things, but you get the gist, I'm sure.

Even when just thinking about social interactions, before they even get up and
go out and do it, the simple thought of interacting with people generates the
same reaction in their brains. So they are motivated to start doing it, rather
than sitting passive.

How about those with few (or no) real friends? When interacting with people,
there's no such reaction in their brains. No reward sites, no positive
emotions, nothing. Or, even worse, negative emotions are generated. And yes,
that may happen even as that person feels "alone" - those are different
processes, not mutually incompatible.

The solution? This is one of those rare instances when self-help books and New
Age literature and stuff like that actually works. "Change starts with
yourself", "positive thinking", heck even "love thy neighbor". All those
stereotypes, in such a situation they do apply pretty well.

------
yason
Good friends are hard to come by and therefore finding a whole group of them
at once is pretty improbable. On the other hand, there's something interesting
and something worthy in each and every person if you only drop your
expectations and demands first.

Secondly, friends are also like women: you'll find a good one when you've
really reached a point of frustration where you find yourself swearing that
"This is enough of suffering for me! I do NOT need a friend/girlfriend to be
happy and to feel fulfilled. If I have to, I'll go by myself just fine, thank
you!" OTOH, nobody wants to befriend someone who really wants a friend, maybe
just any friend. You can't seek for friendship, it will seek for you.

Third, you should make up your mind about what you want. What do you want from
your friends should you become blessed with one? What do you want to talk
about with them? What do you want to do with them? Unless you know what you
want, you'll just keep bumping into friends or "friends" who want to do their
stuff. Nobody is going to come and probe you for subjects that you might want
to talk about, everyone just settles for some topic they know you know too.
Also, being occasionally brave enough to talk about what YOU want to talk
about is a great device to weed out people who can't or won't align with your
interests. For example, if you want to talk about life, start doing that and
you'll soon find out who will bounce back and who simply can't handle it.

Generally, whatever it is that isn't working will just keep happening again
and again until you find a way to change yourself, causing different and
possibly more desirable things to keep happening.

~~~
zupatol
> "This is enough of suffering for me! I do NOT need a friend/girlfriend to be
> happy and to feel fulfilled. If I have to, I'll go by myself just fine,
> thank you!"

This might be realistic in the case of a girlfriend, but is hard to believe in
the case of friends. You can't just decide that loneliness doesn't hurt you
anymore, can you?

Or if you can, it would be very interesting to know more. There is a lot of
research that points the other way.

~~~
Brice
Not being around people does not equate to loneliness.

There are some good books on the subject. Solitude: A Return to the Self by
Anthony Storr was one of the first I read and had a strong focus on
psychology. For a more opinionated text, Party of One: The Loners' Manifesto
by Anneli Rufus was good at building confidence in living this way.

~~~
zupatol
I just put the first one my reading list.

Judging by what I see on amazon.com, Storr analyzes the life of some famous
people that apparently managed to be happy through work despite 'inferior
relationships'.

The one I've read is 'Loneliness: Human Nature and the Need for Social
Connection' by John T. Cacioppo and William Patrick. It quotes a lot of
studies that statistically link feeling disconnected with all sorts of things
you want to avoid, including health problems.

Of course, instead of having friends, you can try to avoid loneliness by
getting rid of your social needs, in a kind of ascetism. I never managed to do
that. On the other hand I read that Alexander Selkirk, the stranded sailor who
inspired Robinson Crusoe, suffered terribly from loneliness the first one and
a half years, but then got over it completely. Later, back in Scotland, he
even regretted his time on the island. I was wondering if this story was true,
and if there were other examples.

------
Russelldb
Firstly, don't feel bad because you feel this way. It is pretty typical for a
bright kid to feel this way, often. The thing that is getting you down is the
over-analysis and introspection not the relationships.

Relationships with people are hugely rewarding and enjoyable but you can't
depend on them for happiness (or anything). See people as the oases in your
life. Depend on yourself for what you need and enjoy people as you find them.

Over analysis and introspection are just a habit of mind. They are not always
productive but have their place, especially at certain times (just broken up,
just done something shocking, had a profound experience, failed in some way)
but prolonged bouts can be destructive.

All the advice so far seems to point to finding something else to occupy your
mind. Do that and you will find people with different interests a welcome
distraction. Of course whatever you find to occupy your time other will do
too, so there is your social circle.

It seems trite but you need to do stuff. I don't want to make you feel worse
but if you spend all your time self absorbed then people will never have the
same interests as you and yo won't be that interesting so won't meet life's
'truly interesting' people ( people like me ;) )

What do you like to do?

------
noahlt
I'm a senior in high school, experienced similar feelings a couple of years
ago. SwellJoe says "you seem to expect your friends to be a perfect clone of
you", which, at least, is what I felt.

Even though you might not find people with the exact same interests as you, if
you look hard you will find that interesting people have similar qualities,
regardless of their specific interests. Seek out people who are good at what
they do, and avoid people who aren't. Academics are a good start—befriend your
local valedictorian. Find people in any activity—math, science, music,
newspaper—and if they're winning any competitions,

As for over-analyzing relationships goes, that shouldn't really be a problem
so long as it doesn't stop you from actually executing them. The key to a
friendship is to be useful to the other person. Always pay more attention to
them than you do to yourself. Figure out things they like/need but don't have,
and buy gifts for them.

Keep in mind that the social landscape can change drastically in a very short
time. Don't assume that a year from now nothing will have changed. It's your
job to make sure the change comes out in your favor.

~~~
RK
_The key to a friendship is to be useful to the other person. Always pay more
attention to them than you do to yourself. Figure out things they like/need
but don't have, and buy gifts for them._

So have you actually met any people yet? This sounds like you're just trying
to kiss someone's ass. That's not how real friendships are forged.

------
anovaskulk
Unfortunately you can hardly have it both ways. Most people only have one
primary interest in their lives, and form groups around it. You don't seem to
be like that, which makes you an exception. Of course there are other
exceptions like you, but they are by definition hard to come by. So either you
get really into one group, or a little bit into many of them, your choice.

------
chris11
I agree with the idea about going to a college that is different than most of
your high school classmates are going too. I did that too, and not knowing
anybody forced me to meet a lot of people. Besides, I personally didn't want
to spend the next four years of college hanging out with the same people I
hung out with in high school.

Sure, the college you choose will be the standard destination for some group
of people, and so they will be coming to college knowing a lot of their
classmates. But people usually come to college with the goal of meeting a lot
of new classmates, and as long as you make an effort to meet new people and
get involved, you should be successful.

I remember coming to college not knowing anyone, and somewhat stressed out
that I might not make a lot of friends. This might have made me come across as
a little desperate. So, don't worry about making close friendships when you
just meet someone new. Just get to know a little bit about them and what they
find interesting. And when you get invited to something, or are doing an
activity, invite people who you know might be interested. And then, after a
while you will have made a lot good friends. Personally my social life now is
a lot better than it ever was in high school, or even my first quarter of
college.

I also had the problem of over-analyzing my friendships a little too much. I
just realized that I couldn't expect to have the same level of friendship with
everyone I meet. So what has helped me is spending time with more people.
Sure, I'm better friends with some people than others. But knowing a lot of
people helps when my better friends are all busy with other people or
activities on the weekends, since I know that I'll be able to spend time with
somebody I like. And once I realize that I don't really need a specific
friendship to be around interesting people, or too spend time with people I
like, then I mostly stop over-analyzing that relationship.

------
unalone
The place where you'll truly find interesting people is the place that places
emphasis on talent and skill above everything else. In high school I had the
same problem you do; in college I'm finding it even harder, as we haven't had
long to sort out into groups, versus the 12 years we had in grade school.

I've been three places where I've felt real kinship with the people around me,
to varying degrees. I find it when I go to work out; there's a focus amongst
everybody in doing something pure and on self-improvement. That's the least
I've felt it. I find it among theater people - the real obsessives. Theater is
such an odd thing that the people who are drawn to it are very focused on
doing as good a job as they can, they're confident enough to have a good time
doing so, and they understand how hard it is, so that they welcome most
anybody who wants to learn. It was most focused at a summer program I spent a
month at, that selected high school students based entirely on talent rather
than GPA and resume, and made itself entirely free of charge. I was one of the
writers in the program, and everybody in every field was absolutely
incredible. Once you get to that sort of group, everybody's interesting and
unique and loves everybody else to some degree.

So that's the tried-and-true method: find the places that are pockets of
talent. Those places attract more talent and become really focused. If you
can't immediately get there, the method I've found works is to just act like
yourself. Don't avoid parts of your personality just because other people find
them off-putting. That's uncomfortable. Instead, try and focus on doing what
you want to do, and find the sorts of people that gravitate towards you based
on who you are. I found, actually, that in my senior year of high school the
people doing that all found each other, and while that group broke apart
again, we had a few really wonderful months where we were all with people we'd
never known really well before, where we liked each other not just for
intellect but for personal honesty.

That's not as easy a route, depending on what kind of person you are. I'm very
sharp-tongued, for instance, and I'm not very interested in most people. That
in itself offends some people, or at least makes them indifferent. But the
result is that when you _are_ with people, you really value them. I really
connected with my roommate - he got me into lifting weights, actually - and a
few people on my floor. Some musician/gamer/coder/work-out types. Nobody who's
exactly my personality type, but a lot of people who really tolerate each
other for who we are. And that's better than pretending friendships and having
none.

Despite that, I've got phases. I have some periods where I feel outright
hateful hostility towards the people who aren't like me. I usually just keep
that inside me, and focus the angst that I've got on working. The first major
period of it I wrote a book. After that I wrote a few bursts of poetry and
designed a web site. I'm half in the middle of one now and it's really keeping
me focused on my work. It helps to focus it outwards at something (though, as
a warning, I tried to get rid of it by drinking once and as a result half my
floor wouldn't speak to me for months).

I overanalyze friendships to death, to answer your last question. I
overanalyze everything. I think that's a good thing. It implies that you're
seeking for something meaningful and lasting. If something's not working, then
it doesn't hurt to try and change it. Just don't get off to too drastic a
start, or you'll burn bridges that you regret burning later.

Hope that helps you! :-)

~~~
palish
If 80% of people are talentless or skillless (wow, a naturally-ocurring
triple-L), what should those people do?

~~~
unalone
See, maybe this is bias, but I don't think it's possible to be talentless or
skill-less (hyphen, maybe?) entirely. The people I know who're talented are
the people who ask questions. The people who're skilled are the people who
learn how to do something. And I've never met people who can't do either. Only
people who refuse to.

The people who I think are most talented - the people I try to emulate - are
the people who never stop asking questions. The more you ask, the more
comprehensive view you have of the thing, and the more you've got to master.
There's nothing particularly hard to it.

The people who don't ask questions, but accept things as they are, are the
people who comfortably fit into a niche. I think most people do this: they get
to a certain level, then stop, and they settle in with people who've settled
there. The people who are skill-less settle in with people who have that
mindset. So they end up with some sort of a satisfaction.

The people who impress me the most, in every single field, are the ones who
are never satisfied entirely. The ones who constantly move forward. It leads
to a mindset like the one in the OP: you feel dissatisfied with the people
around you, the people who settle in. And while the whole idea is that you
never _do_ settle in with a group when you're like that, you do acknowledge
the people who are similar to you, and you develop bonds like that. Those are
my closest friends: the people who, to some degree or other, never stop
pushing themselves forward. It's because they always change: they always stay
interesting. And while all of those close friends belong to entirely separate
groups, while most of them have never met each other in person, they're still
a very definitive group in my mind. And I'd like to think that I belong to
that same group in their minds.

~~~
nazgulnarsil
I like the lack of the "talent" meme in asian culture. hard work is correctly
identified as the reason for superior performance.

~~~
unalone
_Part_ of the reason.

The part of that culture that I dislike is that there's _no_ emphasis on
figuring out what's most worth figuring out. There has to be a period of
figuring out what's worth your time before you dedicate your time. It's
present in American culture, though not as prominently as it ought to be, but
from what I've seen of asian culture it's not there at all. It's why the few
big Japanese successes that fascinate me - though I don't know very many
people, I'll admit - are ones that are openly West-influenced. Shigeru
Miyamoto and Nobuo Uemats, for instance: the one is more influenced by The
Beatles than anything else, and the other originally tried writing songs like
Elton John.

~~~
nazgulnarsil
when you have a billion people you can afford to brute force capitalism.

~~~
SapphireSun
Superior performance can be had by applying the right algorithm. Also,
applying the wrong algorithm may not get you where you want no matter how many
cycles you put in. Brute force is always a terrible way of doing things unless
there literally is no better way (I'm looking at you NP-Hard).

------
mixmax
_Where are the truly interesting people in life?_ \- they are here, among
other places.

Normal people just want to live a normal life, have their statistically
approved 2.1 kids, have sex every wednesday and friday and live their life
like everyone else. That is why they are called normal.

And then there's this peculiar breed of man that doesn't seem to be satisfied
with the acceptance of every rule and to do as he's told but want to question
assumptions and discover new things. He is rare, and thus normally has
problems finding peers that have the same curiosity towards life as him.

I think you're one of those people. Don't feel bad about that, they are the
ones that change the world.

------
moswald
It's not really about friends,it's about growing up. Self reliance and such.
The older one gets, the less anyone has in common with anyone else. In a
couple of seconds you'll be contemplating retirement and barely remember this
question at all.

You are learning how to deal with the real world, the world you must navigate
to find happiness. Sooner than later you'll fall in love and then even this
goes out the window. You think you're confused now? Just wait.

Just be thankful you have a place like this, where people want to answer with
contemplated gems and not something something...

------
zitterbewegung
I really don't give a shit about alienation. I try to talk about anything and
analyze the person I talk to using philosophical techniques. (philosophy is
good for good conversation).

~~~
rodrigo
One of my best friends is a painter, so I made a good mental exercise of
trying to frame my interests in something more broad so I can discuss them
with him. e.g. I talk about people creating things from my programming
experience and my friend from his experiences as an artist.

------
jcs
_"I feel like when I talk to my "friends", I either have to talk all about
computers, or all about music, or whatever that they're interested in, but
never a mixture of everything."_

Have you actually tried talking about other topics? It sounds like you're
making assumptions about what your friends are interested in, but haven't
actually tested your hypothesis.

I don't think I've met anyone who isn't keen to learn something new or teach
me about one of their interests.

------
mattmaroon
Ah yes, ask a bunch of people who aren't qualified to give psychological
advice a psychological question. This is the same as asking legal questions
here.

Go get help. You don't sound suicidal or anything (though if you are, run to
the nearest psychiatrist) but you do sound like you've got something other
than teenage angst (in my highly unqualified opinion) so you should at least
run your problem by a psychologist. What could it hurt?

~~~
mattmaroon
I can see why this was downvoted. Advising someone to seek psychological
advice from a psychologist, rather than a forum of programmers, was clearly
wrong. A bunch of programmers who aren't qualified to give psychological
advice doing so is clearly more valuable.

------
dustineichler
It's commendable that you post this in the open. That takes a lot of guts. You
aren't alone, in fact like you mentioned... this is why Catcher In the Rye is
so popular, so identifiable.

1\. Take others advice with a grain of salt. 2. Dig down and get tough
otherwise this beat you up. 3. Standards are worth having.

Not the best advice, but in reality you'll ultimately do whatever you decide
and not what we tell you. Good luck.

------
sheriff
Just stop alienating yourself.

Stop coming up with reasons to dislike your friends. Stop waiting for
something to magically change in your life (college won't be _that_ different.

And definitely stop framing the problem as _other people_ alienating _you_.
Even if it were true, that's not a problem you can do much about.

Spend time with people you like, and try to let people surprise you.

------
yef
This appears to be a popular thread, and I don't have time to read all the
comments, but let me throw in this quick recommendation: How to Win Friends
and Influence People, by Dale Carnegie. Try putting the basic techniques into
practice along with developing _your_ skill for finding others interesting.

------
rokhayakebe
Believe it or not you seem to be a social butterfly. The best "socialistas"
have several friends in every field of life. This is great as it allows you to
not get bored and each niche will feed you with more information. Stick to
this plan. Expand it. Materialize it.

------
robfitz
i went to an out-of-state college in a big city nobody else from my high
school was going to. it worked well for a reset (not that i had particularly
intended to accomplish that).

and all the interesting people are in startups ;)

------
Spyckie
When I was in this situation, I somewhat wanted advice, but really I wanted
someone to just take the time to talk to me.

If you feel that way, I'm free to talk - send me an email or aim me - Spyckie
(at) gmail or Spyckie on aim.

------
mattdennewitz
social life at that age is ebb & flow, man. just find your similarities and
try not to exacerbate the differences. youre in a hyper-sensitive stage of
development and anyone you can find to lean on for growth is going to be an
invaluable resource. hell is (mostly) not other people, hell is over-
analyzation.

college, hopefully, will blow your mind. it may not be everything you want it
to be, and may not even be right for you, but it will take a _great_ personal
undertaking on your part to _not_ meet some excellent people.

------
known
Consider joining local chapter of
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toastmasters_International>

------
brandong
_I feel like just another Holden, which probably makes the entire situation
worse._

Holden? I've wiki'd it to no avail. Can someone enlighten me?

~~~
gravitycop
_Holden?_

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holden_Caulfield>

------
noahlt
Work hard and get into a good college.

------
charlesju
Here is a concept.

Your friends don't need to share the same interests as you and you can still
be friends.

------
anewaccountname
There is an old saying: "bored people are themselves, boring"

~~~
giles_bowkett
srsly.

my Spanish teacher a few years ago told me that the word in Spanish is the
same in either case: aburrido. the downside is that most English speakers will
assume you mean "a burrito." the upside is that it makes a lot of sense to
combine these two words into one thing.

------
xenophanes
> Where are the truly interesting people in life?

www.curi.us

------
Scriptor
This is coming in a whiles after your post, but hopefully I can still put in
some input.

I am a freshman in college with my first semester finished. In high school, I
had about 3 good friends I enjoyed hanging out with. Besides them, I rarely
had any social interaction. I was rarely (maybe once or twice?) invited to
anything by anyone other than those 3 friends. The end of my senior year
especially was depressing. I got to see everyone else, including my good
friends, get invited to a good number of graduation parties while I stayed
home. Weekend nights on the computer (like this one now) were common.

Enough about myself, but hopefully that gives you an idea of where I'm coming
from. This advice is from very recent experience. I understand what you mean
by having people you only have a specific interest with. While others say this
is normal, I don't think they git it. If every time you're with them, the
conversation turns to just computers or whatever, it's not real friendship.
One piece of advice is that you could try doing something or going somewhere
with people, so it's not all about a conversation. I also know that living in
certain towns (like my hometown) finding something to do can be near
impossible.

Now, for making new friends. Honestly, this is hard in high school, but not
impossible. Friendships ebb and flow, and all of my friendships have seen
different levels. Joining clubs is one good strategy. You could even try
starting a club with someone else. For example, if you know someone who enjoys
programming and you do too, you could both start a programming club. Why when
I just said that _only_ talking about computers is not frienship? Because
having a club means you have to interact with people and it can bring in
situations for meeting other people. Often, just having a good time with
someone is a good sign.

Now, for the advice that is probably most important, what will happen at
college. I'm a geek, and I chose NYU, a college that I'm pretty sure is not
very geeky at all. I did this on purpose, because I wanted a clean slate and
an environment that actively pushed me to become more social. Here's some
tips:

\- You _have_ to do whatever you can to meet random people in the beginning.
Sit with people at lunch, talk to people before class, join clubs, go out with
floormates. I didn't do this at all, and now I regret that my only friends are
from my floor. You just have to take advantage of this critical period when
socializing is extremely open.

\- I was extremely depressed during my first few days at college. Many others
seemed to have something amazing about them, playing an instrument,
photography, acting, etc. Everyone else also seemed much more sociable while I
stayed quiet most of the time. I often thought whether I made the right
college choice. But after those few days, I suddenly fit in well enough. I was
still very much the same person, but after all the stuff about "whoa! you play
guitar!" or "dude, you've got so many movies", personalities became more
dominant. I wasn't an asshole, and I could be funny on occasion, and I danced
like an idiot, but a funny idiot. So the moral of this is, do something in
high school that you can show off to other people so those first few college
days won't be as painful. Otherwise, just be a nice guy and if you come up
with something funny, clever, or interesting, say it!

\- After a few weeks of college, you will notice that everyone seems to have
an individual label. I don't mean prep, jock, goth, or things like that. More
like, everyone has a few personality traits that make them who they are.
Somebody might be the big, outgoing guy, or the californian Asian dude, or the
quiet we-need-to-get-this-guy-a-date nerd (guess who I am). Whatever happens,
don't be the awkward guy. This will mean being natural and casual. If you
don't think you can hold a one-on-one conversation with a girl, even if she's
just a floormate, then frankly, don't. Large groups are your safest bet.

To return to your high school troubles, here's one last piece of advice. Even
though the guy who might be good at acting or talking to girls has his own
kind of smartness, make sure that both you and other people respect you. Don't
mix with people who disparage science if you're into science. Find people who
are willing to be intellectual.

I'm afraid that much of the above was too long, off-topic, or just weird. I'm
pretty much writing this as stream-of-consciousness. Just remember: Be
yourself. You can change yourself. You have to like what you change into.

------
known
Have you tried Facebook?

------
time_management
_I have no social group of my own and go back and forth between their friend
circles._

That's a sign that you're an interesting person. It's painful, though.

 _I feel like when I talk to my "friends", I either have to talk all about
computers, or all about music, or whatever that they're interested in, but
never a mixture of everything._

You need to swallow your pride and learn how to make small talk. It's
frustrating for intense people like us, not because we're too smart or to good
for small talk, but because we frankly don't care about things like sports
teams or the weather (or if we do, we care too much and can recite
sports/weather statistics and bore people to death). However, it's a skill
you'll need to learn, and you might as well do it now.

 _Everyone has told me to wait until college, and then I will find new people,
but everyone I know in college generally sticks with the same friend group
that they had in high school (hence why I would know), so I don't have much
hope in that._

College is less cliqueish than high school, but still much more cliqueish than
the real world.

Most people have "cliques" (which usually emerge from what floors people are
on in freshman year) because they are insecure and need a set of people whom,
even if they are not close to any of them individually, they recognize as
"friends". They rely on their base social group (most of whom are not very
close friends) more than on individual friends, and meet dates and new people
through this group.

The high school cliques break up a bit in college, unless a large number of
students from your high school go to the same school.

 _Where are the truly interesting people in life?_

All over the place, literally and figuratively. Quality people are both rare
and common; there are few of them, but they can be found everywhere. Most of
my friends in college were international students, but I've met interesting
and smart people literally everywhere, of all nationalities, races, and social
classes.

~~~
jskopek
I think you've summed up the dynamics of university relationships better then
anyone else I'd known. Speaking as someone who missed out on a big part of
first year dorm life, this is exactly what I've seen happen

------
giles_bowkett
what in the hell does this have to do with hacker news? why are you asking
programmers for advice on making friends? I think you're missing some key
information about programmers here.

anyway, if your friends annoy you, spend less time with them, and go to places
you haven't been before, pursuing whatever interests you have, and see if you
meet people.

personally I deal with alienation by telling everyone I know to go to hell and
seeing who sticks around anyway. I'm not actually qualified to give anybody
advice on this topic, but I'm just reiterating my initial point now.

might as well reiterate my second point. I have the opposite problem: making
too many new friends and not having the time to follow through on the
friendship. this comes about because I have a lot of interests that I pursue
really intensely. if you pursue a lot of interests, you'll meet people. so do
that, but without being too intense about it to make any space for new
friendships to develop, and you're good.

------
Allocator2008
This is a link to a therapist I use all of the time. She is awesome:

<http://www-ai.ijs.si/eliza/eliza.html>

~~~
tlrobinson
I prefered her evil twin, Azile.

I can't find a web version, here's the really old school app (Mac OS classic)
<http://www.tex-edit.com/index.html#Azile>

------
point
Do you have any true friends who are just plain old normal, and not
exceptional in any way? If you don't then you are lacking something
fundamental - it's you who is flawed, not them.

