
I created my own MMO and lost 100 pounds - dshankar
http://www.polygon.com/2014/4/22/5625906/weight-loss-mmo-video-game
======
SoftwareMaven
I went the exact opposite route. After losing 180 pounds via bariatric surgery
and then regaining 70 of it, I _dove_ into the science. I read books, but only
books that pointed directly to scientific literature I could read. More
importantly, I learned how to differentiate good nutrition studies from bad
nutrition studies (hint: at least 90% of nutrition studies are _bad_ ) so I
could tell when an conclusion is warranted by the data versus when it isn't. I
also started completely ignoring anything said in the media, since,
invariably, they get it wrong or they hype the afore-mentioned bad studies.
Everything became about the science and the n=1 experiments.

What I found was that I could lose weight without effort, improve every health
marker, and enjoy the foods my body really seemed to desire (as opposed to
foods engineered to cause cravings). The 70 pounds disappeared without any
tracking of anything[1]. More importantly, that 70 pounds was gone a year ago,
and maintaining the loss has been just as straightforward.

I applaud anybody who finds the method that works for them. It's pretty clear
our bodies are striving to be healthy and get what they need; once you find
that, the rest comes relatively easy.[2]

1\. There was some early tracking as I learned about different foods and how
they interacted with me and my goals.

2\. Unfortunately, some people lost the genetic lottery (less than you might
think) or are so metabolically disturbed (becoming more and more) that it
isn't always easy. I have a huge amount of respect for those who persevere
through that and work towards a healthier life.

~~~
beaumartinez
Interesting. What studies did you stick with?

~~~
SoftwareMaven
Hmm, tough question. Here are some of the studies that struck me most. The
danger of something like this is it can look like confirmation bias; that is
not the case. It just happens that a close, impartial reading of the evidence
tends to lean one direction.

* Comparison of the Atkins, Zone, Ornish, and LEARN Diets for Change in Weight and Related Risk Factors Among Overweight Premenopausal Women[1]

* Effects of Dietary Composition on Energy Expenditure During Weight-Loss Maintenance[2]

* The ketogenic diet as a treatment paradigm for diverse neurological disorders[3]

* The ketogenic diet reverses gene expression patterns and reduces reactive oxygen species levels when used as an adjuvant therapy for glioma[4]

* A Systematic Review of the Evidence Supporting a Causal Link Between Dietary Factors and Coronary Heart Disease[5]

At the time, I wrote a wikia article[6] that tried to distil all of my
thoughts and what I had learned. It is mostly correct, but I'm sure I got some
things wrong. I haven't gone back over it in some time.

More recently, I think this article (Dietary Carbohydrate restriction as the
first approach in diabetes management. Critical review and evidence base)[7]
gives a good overview of the metabolic benefits.

All of this does not imply that I think a ketogenic diet is the One and True
Path(tm); it is far more nuanced than that, but that's not a bad place to
start for a lot of people.

1\. [http://www.mwc.com.br/files/Gardner_-
_Standford_A_to_Z.pdf](http://www.mwc.com.br/files/Gardner_-
_Standford_A_to_Z.pdf)

2\.
[http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1199154](http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1199154)

3\.
[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3321471/pdf/fpha...](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3321471/pdf/fphar-03-00059.pdf)

4\.
[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2949862/](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2949862/)

5\.
[http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=11084...](http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1108492)

6\. [http://fat-
head.wikia.com/wiki/Health_Benefits_of_a_Low_Carb...](http://fat-
head.wikia.com/wiki/Health_Benefits_of_a_Low_Carb,_High_Fat_Diet)

7\.
[http://www.nutritionjrnl.com/article/S0899-9007(14)00332-3/f...](http://www.nutritionjrnl.com/article/S0899-9007\(14\)00332-3/fulltext)

~~~
CuriouslyC
This is good info, the only things I would add here:

* carbohydrate intake should really depend on your activity level. I'm guessing the majority of the people in these studies were sedentary so a ketogenic diet is a pretty good option. People who are more active should consume some carbohydrates because glycogen depletion tends to mess with energy levels.

* A higher dietary protein intake has been shown to increase satiety and lead to weight loss by itself. Regardless of your diet you should increase your intake of high protein foods; beans and low fat cultured dairy are good sources.

~~~
SoftwareMaven
Steve Phinney and Jeff Volek have done a lot of research into high performance
athletes using a ketogenic diet (see, for instance, The Art and Science of Low
Carbohydrate Performance[1]). Extreme endurance athletes are using ketogenic
diets as a tool to smash records in ultramarathon running[2].

Nobody _needs_ carbohydrate. That doesn't mean carbs are necessarily bad, but
the long-time trope that you have to have them if you want to move further
than your couch is just silly and has long been disproven (if, by nobody else,
hunter-gatherers who had gone days without food while running down a kill).

Phinney and Volek have found interesting things about fat and high-intensity
exercise:

* Fat utilization in keto-adapted individuals that is, literally, re-writing textbooks. Levels of fat mobilization that have never been seen in laboratories is being recorded. This likely has a genetic component, what I would consider the opposite of the multiple copies of the amylase gene that highly carb-tolerant people seem to have.

* Fat requires less oxygen to utilize, leading to less lactic acid, less muscle tissue damage, and faster recovery.

* Keto-adapted athletes are much more efficient in their use of their glycogen stores, using less when passing 70% VO2-max and replenishing supplies faster. They do not store as much glycogen as carb-burners, so the net effect winds up being about the same amount of power from glycogen between carb and fat burners.

That doesn't mean there are no athletes who would see benefits of carbs, but,
in a fat-adapted state, those carbs can be much, much more strategic in nature
(the cyclist sprinting over the hill, the olympic lifter in competition, etc).
Peter Attia talks a lot about his strategic use of carbs while exercising[3].

Personally, I see beans as a food to be very cautious with. The phytates,
lectins, and saponins in them are there to protect the seed, since plants
can't run away to protect their offspring. They use chemical warfare, and are
quite good at it, leading to poor absorption of nutrients[4]. Properly
preparing them (soaking and fermenting) can address this problem, something
done in all societies previous to the 20th century, but rarely done now.

I also can't see any reason to use low fat, well, anything. Fat is a perfectly
healthy macronutrient, and, when going for low fat, you are typically getting
a lot of sugar and additives put in to replace the taste and texture of the
lost fat. On the other hand, live-cultured dairy products, for those who can
tolerate lactose, are an amazing food.

1\. [http://www.artandscienceoflowcarb.com/the-art-and-science-
of...](http://www.artandscienceoflowcarb.com/the-art-and-science-of-low-
carbohydrate-performance/)

2\. [http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2012/08/11/western-
states-100...](http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2012/08/11/western-
states-100-low-carber-wins-ultramarathon-steve-phinney-and-jeff-volek-study/)

3\. [http://eatingacademy.com](http://eatingacademy.com)

4\.
[http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/49/1/140.short](http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/49/1/140.short)

------
fivedogit
I want to upvote this a dozen more times. I've always thought MMOs could
"hack" the brain into doing all sorts of cool, productive things.

Somebody needs to create an MMO for language learning. Instead of "go kill 12
dragons" the questgiver would say "matar a 12 dragones" or "matar a 12
dragones verdes" or "matar al dragón en la cima de la montaña". The immersion
and addiction would have hardcore players speaking 10 languages, I guarantee
it.

And I think this could be extended to quantifiable human-necessary tasks, too.
Like a mechanical turk, but fun.

~~~
Glide
I'm pretty sure my ability to touch type was influenced by playing Quake 1 and
Quake 2. You had to type quickly enough to insult someone and not die.

I've met programmers that don't touch type, but I've never met a PC gamer that
doesn't.

And yes, your idea would be awesome. That would actually be a sick WoW add-on.
I doubt you can pull different localizations through the API though.

~~~
endgame
I credit MUDding with my current typing speed.

~~~
geddes
ditto!

------
frankcaron
Figures that I submit this for karma myself eons ago but it only now, via
another HNer, pops to the top. :)

\- The fat MMO guy

~~~
chrissnell
This is totally off-topic but I'm originally from San Antonio and noticed the
last picture in the article and picked it out immediately as you having a
drink at La Gloria. This (and the heat!) is exactly why it's so hard for
people back home to lose weight. Kudos to you for figuring it out!

~~~
frankcaron
Good eyes! We were there after a con at Rackspace! It was as deadly as you've
foretold.

------
brohoolio
Good inspiring article.

I recently added 3 rules to my life.

1.) No pop 2.) Track calorie intake via loseit 3.) Exercise everyday (even if
it's just a 10 minute walk or some pushups)

Two weeks in and I feel way better. I find that I'm trying to control my
calorie intake and get it where it needs to be without exerting as much effort
as I would be if I was simply counting calories to lose weight. I find that
I'm doing more than the minimum in terms of exercise too just because I'm
already doing some exercise.

At least I found having rules helped me not push off weight loss until next
week forever.

~~~
eru
What's pop?

~~~
stan_rogers
Most Americans would probably call it "soda" (there are a couple of weir areas
where everything is "Coke", no matter what it really is, and some of the more
civilized areas use the word "pop" as the gods intended); Brits would probably
say "fizzy drinks".

~~~
aestra
>Most Americans would probably call it "soda"

It is HIGHLY regional. The Northeast and parts of the West mostly say "soda."

The South is "coke."

[http://www.popvssoda.com/](http://www.popvssoda.com/)

------
jebus989
British guy problems but I thought someone was blogging about a very small
financial loss on a game they made. lbs would help.

~~~
opminion
45 kg

~~~
dyadic
The problem isn't weight translation, it's reading "pounds" as currency
instead of weight. Imagine the title was "I created my own MMO and lost 100
dollars", that's how we Brits parse it

~~~
Gigablah
"Lose 10 pounds! Only £10!"

------
funkyy
I am actually testing the 1 day fasting diet, exercising every day (either
speed walking 5K, jogging for 5K or tennis) and limiting liquid calories.

The things people forget: -your body is unable to calculate liquid calories
(pop, juices etc) - so even after drinking 2K calories in Cola you can be
still hungry

-fasting for 1 day a week (200-300 intake in sugars calories like sugar tea) or 2 days a week (500 calories in fruit sugars a day) is extremely healthy as for first 24 hours since eating your body will use gathered sugars in your body to maintain itself burning all the nasty stuff logging your veins and stomach. This also helps you to say no to food - next day after fasting you wont feel like extremaly hungry and even very small meals through the day will be enough to you

-track calories - but be honest, always round it up DOWN to full 50s and 100s.

-calculate calories weekly, not daily. Make sure on the end of the week you are good. Start Monday with fasting - you will have 1,500-2,000 calories deficit already so basically you can eat most of stuff through the week.

I have lost already 10 pounds in 4 weeks, I can run easily and I feel much
better. 2 more months and I am done!

~~~
aggronn
>2 more months and I am done!

This attitude is typically a very bad one to have when dieting. Ingesting
fewer calories should be sustainable after you've reached your target weight.

Anyways, good luck to you in your efforts. If this is a way for you to start,
then there's nothing wrong with it at all.

~~~
funkyy
Why is bad. I didnt say I will stuff myself after 2 months, I will just remove
calorie deficit from my diet - I wont stop exercising, I actually want to
regain some body mass as muscles - so I need to stop deficit and make surplus
of protein etc...

------
Mz
Good for him. Though I was hoping he had actually created an MMO. This is kind
of a metaphorical MMO, not a real one.

~~~
jkaunisv1
It's not even really an MMO, I would say RPG. It's not massively multiplayer
but I guess it's online.

Still awesome.

~~~
Mz
Well, _he_ was massive. And he got a couple of other people involved, making
this a multiplayer effort. Perhaps that is close enough, in metaphorical
terms, for what he was trying to communicate here.

~~~
jkaunisv1
Haha I like your interpretation :)

~~~
frankcaron
That was technically the literal interpretation. :)

------
arrrg
Ha, I’ve done similar things, but I’m still in the middle of it, 62 pounds in
to be exact, that’s about the half-way point.

The key component turned out to be the scale for me. Automatic tracking works
much better for me than manually keeping track of it. (I also got a Withings
scale, but I don’t think the brand matters. As long as the scale automatically
logs everything without you having to do anything or even look how much you
weigh in the morning it’s great.) Seeing your whole progress in one graph
really helps me keep on track.

A week without progress even though you did all the exercise you always do and
ate like you always do? With the trend-line and the chart going all the way
back you can easily see that it’s just a statistical anomaly, most likely
random noise (probably mostly dependent on when you drank your water and when
you went to the toilet). It doesn’t mean progress has stopped.

That 2lb setback, probably because I wasn’t careful about what I eat? Now I
look back all the way I have come and those 2lbs seem harmless. That’s a
ridiculously tiny amount of weight to lose. It’s so easy. Just some extra care
to what I eat and how active I am and I’m all set.

With manual tracking (mostly memorising what I weighed and remembering it the
next day) I would at these points just get afraid of the scale and eventually
stop weighing myself. The whole process was less transparent with manual
tracking and the automatically logging scale demystified it for me. During my
previous attempts weeks without any progress just doomed me and got me to this
really dark place. No I’m not even bothered by them. The trend-line is going
down. Always.

Now, step counters may not be accurate or even a good way to track how active
you are (and walking or cardio may not the best ways to aid weight loss) but
the built-in step counter in my iPhone that I have always with me (plus my
podcast addiction and the beautiful weather this summer) actually lead me to
automatically want to beat those 10,000 steps per day. And at some point I
just started doing it. I think there isn’t one day during the last two months
where I didn’t walk at least 9,000 steps per day, without even consciously
deciding to do that. I just wanted to beat those 10,000 steps. I want to see
the bar turn green and the 10,000 to light up. That has helped me tremendously
to stay active (and not just move less when I started eating less).

I also started driving the ergometer for 30 minutes every day and while I
don’t really track that I’m seeing my progress (I can drive with more and more
resistance and without any breaks in-between) – also with my scale. The heart
rate measurement doesn’t work so well (it fails two times out of three) but it
also shows steady downward progress. From a resting heart rate in the high 80s
I’m now down to a healthy one in the low 60s. I also feel much better and
sleep much better. (This would certainly be beneficial for me, even without
any weight loss.)

All this progress also motivates me to constantly optimise. Next step: Buy
good shoes and convert some of that walking distance into running distance.
(70 minutes of walking per day are a bit long, but doable. However, with some
running I can bring that time down.)

(The eating story is similar. I don’t particularly care about what I eat, but
when you restrict how much you eat you will automatically tend to prefer food
that makes you feel fuller. That’s at least how it was for me so far. I don’t
want to eat pasta every day because then I wouldn’t ever feel full. And when I
do eat pasta I would rather make the portion a bit smaller and add a salad for
the saved calories to feel fuller.)

Will it work? Ask me in three years. I hope so. I think keeping up my weighing
routine forever will be the key. If I can do that I see no reason why I can’t
keep at it and at least hold my weight (but most likely lose some more and
hold the weight I want to have). I’m cautiously optimistic. This is the most
weight I have ever lost in my life and the longest I have been at it and I
don’t even feel constantly starving or demotivated or crushed (something that
was common during previous attempts). I actually feel great most of the time.

Get tracking! It helped me.

~~~
Retric
Just remember losing weight is not the hard part. You need to keep it off. I
lost 100LB over 2 years with vary little effort, stopped paying attention for
6 months and gained much of it back.

~~~
arrrg
Losing weight is the hard part. Keeping the weight constant is the hard part.
Everything is the hard part. (I attempted and failed losing weight for years
now. Getting this started was extremely hard. Right now it’s admittedly easy.)

I just assume that I can never stop tracking my weight and never really stop
counting calories. These changes that I’m making now are constant. This is not
a temporary thing. That’s just how it is. I will see how it turns out in a
year or so.

~~~
cdelsolar
Although I'm not overweight, I had been trying for a long time to get myself
to exercise, and finally started running a few years back, and I totally agree
with the "this is not a temporary thing". Right now I basically run at least
once a week but average about 3-4 times a week (it's only on terrible weeks
that I get one run in, and I'm usually really antsy if I can't run more than
once). That is basically non-negotiable, I will continue running regularly
until I'm too old to.

------
caster_cp
This is genius. Really. In my mind you've just "jiu jitsued" the candy bars,
by applying the same mechanisms they use to keep you hooked, but against them.
By creating habits that are prone to compulsive behavior (the phenomenon at
play when you want to check your diet data is the same as when a teen checks
his/her Facebook/WhatsApp/Whatever for messages). The surprising thing here is
that you could keep this going long enough until it actually became a habit
(or so I suppose). This is the trick, and I couldn't figure out what made you
keep it so (willpower may be the answer here, but s there any other thing
going on?) Anyways, kudos, you data aficionado diet jiu jitsu guy :D

~~~
jkaunisv1
In my experience (which I've written a bit about at habitformed.com if you're
curious), habits like these do become engrained if you keep at them long
enough and if they specifically don't require any willpower. The key I've
found is to take willpower out of the equation because you'll always be
lacking that.

One way I judo'd my own eating habits was to force myself to eat two servings
of decently healthy tasty things before being allowed a serving of junk. eg.
some fruit, some nuts, then cookies. It didn't need willpower to enforce
because I could always eat my way to a delicious cookie if I really wanted it.

------
4ndr3vv
This title was very confusing for an Englishman.

------
frankcaron
For the record, and for those asking for this to be a real game, FitRPG for
iOS is planning to deliver on some of that very notion. It's a super cool app;
and I say that with absolutely no affiliation (srs). Google it.

~~~
snicker
HabitRPG is a web and mobile platform for gamifying habits and life goals that
launched via Kickstarter a couple years back that is very successful in
helping people do what you've done

[http://www.habitrpg.com](http://www.habitrpg.com)

------
nathan_f77
This is exactly what I'm doing, down to the MFP app and the Withings scale.
The results have been amazing so far, and I look forward to writing a similar
blog post by the end of the year.

------
thret
I'm surprised nobody has linked the obligatory xkcd yet:
[http://xkcd.com/189/](http://xkcd.com/189/)

I think about this every time I run.

------
smegel
> The idea is to track everything you take in and track what you spend through
> exercise.

Wouldn't it just be easier to weigh yourself once a week, and if your weight
goes up, eat less calories the following week and/or do more exercise? Unless
your memory is that bad, or your eating patterns that random, it should not be
hard to cut out things you know are high calorie and you can do without.

~~~
beisner
The problem with weight loss and other sorts of large, daunting projects is
that morale and focus tend to evaporate pretty quickly when you don't hold
yourself accountable and don't see immediate results. Whether it's weighing
yourself every day or keeping a food journal, these sort of small, incremental
data points help you keep focused in the short term. Tracking them over larger
time frames keeps you focused in the long term. When you want to learn a new
language, you can't just say, "I'll look over some words this week, and if I'm
not happy with my progress I'll do more next week," \- you have to have a day-
to-day plan to go over X number of flash cards, or talk for X number of
minutes with a native speaker.

Small, manageable, tangible goals are the key to weight loss, and tracking
ones weight and intake meticulously allows you to set such goals.

------
restlessmedia
It's the guiding principal behind weight watchers. If you get into the habit
of at least noticing what you are eating, you'll give yourself the opportunity
to accept/deny it. The points system for weight watchers is genius and removes
the complexity around nutrition as long as you how many points that thing your
eating contains.

~~~
coroxout
I just started doing Slimming World, which I guess is much the same as WW but
with a different points allocation scheme.

(Rice/pasta/potatoes are basically "free" as long as they are not cooked in
oil; a third of each meal should be fresh fruit/veg, to discourage you from
overloading on the free carbs; bread is very bad on the points system; you get
one free calcium-containing product and one free fibre-containing product from
an approved list every day, which has bizarrely led to me eating more cheese
than ever before. I mainly picked SW over WW because of when the sessions
were, rather than because I liked their way of doing it; in fact, to be honest
I wasn't sure it would work at all, but so far it is.)

Anyway, I agree there are definitely "gamification" aspects which are true for
these weight loss group sessions too. The point scoring; every week people get
applauded for their weight loss and shiny stickers are handed out for the best
that week or for reaching various milestones; and just turning up to group
every week (which you have to to keep your membership current) means you can't
chicken out of weighing yourself on a bad week, and sitting in a group
provides your "encouragers" and "challengers" too, although possibly not as
effectively as selecting one of each from your everyday friends.

------
MichaelTieso
I imagine a future where we will be able to track everything we eat
automatically without having to enter any data in onto an app. Imagine seeing
data about your body right on your arm. I eat a sandwich and it tells me
exactly how many calories it was. I'll be the first to signup for something
like this if/when this comes out.

------
MichaelDickens
In case the site isn't loading for anyone else:
[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:www.pol...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:www.polygon.com/2014/4/22/5625906/weight-
loss-mmo-video-game)

------
norswap
Ah, I'd actually hoped he had coded a real MMO. Well, congratulations to him
in any case.

------
zedwill
The story reminds me of REAMDE, by Neal Stephenson. In fiction, the
protagonist Richard also creates his own MMO and uses immersion as a way to
loose weight.

------
eru
Switching from World of Warcraft to Ingress can also help with fitness and
weightloss.

