
Have young people in Japan stopped having sex? - Libertatea
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/20/young-people-japan-stopped-having-sex
======
m_mueller
The subject is interesting, especially because I'm married to a Japanese - but
man do I hate articles that go round and round like this one. Here, have a
little bit of a sociological hypothesis - but let's not go too deep for your
little brains shall we? Here, have a little bit of anecdotal evidence instead.
Enough of that? Alright, let's start over again. [...] Oh I'm outa time, let's
end the article now, kthxbye.

It's probably too much to ask - but I think there should be something in
between a scientific journal and common journalism. In technology we have some
pretty insightful articles coming up in blogs now and then, articles where
sources are cited and you can go deeper on any subject if you like. Why can't
traditional journalists not use the _web_ the way it is meant to?

~~~
usernew1817
why does saying "married to a Japanese" sound so much more awkward then saying
"married to an American/Canadian"

~~~
nl
I'm married to a Britisher (which is not used in Great Britan anyway) sounds
similarly awkward. Married to an Englishman/Welshman/Irishman works, but is
gender (and England/Wales/Ireland) specific.

I'm married to a Scott works though.

Not sure there is a general purpose word you can use to say "I'm married to
someone from Britian".

~~~
DanBC
"I'm married to a Briton". That sounds weird.

([https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-
factbook/...](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-
factbook/geos/uk.html))

~~~
threedaymonk
Briton is widely used in Britain, e.g. in news articles: "Tokyo destroyed by
giant reptile, 3 Britons feared dead"

~~~
m_mueller
Great parody about the media coverage of 3-11 there.

------
veidr
This is a stupid article, and young people in Japan have not stopped having
sex.

What westerners might call 'casual sex' \-- sex without the framework of a
relationships that implies various other promieses/committments -- is normal,
and also not likely to be spoken about frankly, especially to a reporter, and
much less a British one.

Sometimes I'll witness a young woman asked about it at a social gathering (as
people have a few drinks and speak more freely). "I don't have anybody... I
can't remember the last time I slept with somebody," she might say. What she
means is that she doesn't have a steady boyfriend, and thus it is certainly
none of your business who she's fucking.

Or I will see a guy asked about it. "Well, romance is too complicated with all
I've got going on... I've learned to live without it," he might say, with just
the right amount of sheepishness. What he means is that he is seeking only sex
that doesn't come with implied commitments and hassle.

These two people might very well end up leaving together.

~~~
westicle
This certainly isn't a phenomenon exclusive to Japan either.

I know plenty of western young people who have no interest in marriage,
procreation or families. Maybe they're more interested in their work. Maybe
they're more interested in rock-climbing. Maybe they're more interested in
Pokemon.

More power to them, I say.

~~~
001sky
Anecdotally, this is directly correlated to the price of real-estate, and
other parts of the world are only now catching up to Japan in this regards.

~~~
msandford
A lot of people are looking at the utter destruction of freedom that raising a
family is today, and choosing not to. It's not just the price of real estate,
it's inflation too. Roll into that the lack of job security and negative real
interest rates and it's no wonder people can't think about a future.

One of the most basic needs when planning for a future is the prospect that
the future will be better than the past. It's now very difficult to arrange
that independently of constant advancement at work and constant advancement at
work requires tremendous amounts of effort.

People are getting squeezed from both sides. I feel this myself, and I'm doing
quite well statistically; white, male, educated, highly skilled and gainfully
employed.

~~~
speeder
You people are forgetting feminism.

It has lots to do with it.

Brazil for example has PLENTY of space and cheap places to live (unless you
want to live in São Paulo... like where I am now, the prices here ARE fucked
up)

Yet marriages are going down to the point of scare the government too.

The reason for it is simple (there has been lots of research, not only here,
but on other countries with declining births to dangerous levels): women
prefer their careers to motherhood...

Even the UN gender economic report, state that it thinks is a good thing women
have less kids because they can get richer (yes, that is written in the
report, specifically, the report consider that countries where women have less
than 3 kids, are countries that are awesome because they are reaching gender
equality, since women with less kids can work more)

For men, it is the invention of no-fault divorce, that keeps marriage
pointless (the point of marriage historically, in cultures where divorce was
forbidden by law or by custom or by religion, was to force women stay in the
marriage, and indeed in countries with no-fault divorce, no matter where, they
keep finding that 70% of the divorces with no reason where started by women)

~~~
msandford
I wonder if they ACTUALLY prefer careers or if they THINK they do and thus
never try. Remember that it's at least an 18 year commitment (probably longer)
so that if you've got any doubts it's really easy to talk yourself out of it.

Let me be clear: I'm not suggesting that women have any societal obligations.

But given that we're all here today we can infer historically that women (as a
whole) have liked having children at least some amount. Did they never
ACTUALLY like it but that was their only choice? Or do they (again as a whole)
enjoy motherhood but socioeconomic life is now so treacherous that motherhood
is a luxury few can afford? Perhaps something else entirely from the false
dichotomy I've suggested?

EDIT: I've accepted your premise at face value, but I'm not sure I should. I
don't know how to properly caveat this comment.

~~~
speeder
This is not fully clear yet, as we need more.20 years or so in this situation
to be sure, but seemly women are being convinced that they want careers, and
they regret it later... Right now the numbers of 50 year old childless women
due to feminism is still low, but many of those few are drifting to be against
feminism.instead and attempt to convince younger women to not repeat their
mistakes. Mostly because when you are a 50 year old childless rich women, you
realize that now you still have 30 years to live, nothing to do, and few
people to love and care for you.

~~~
biafra
Since when does feminism promote childlessness?

It promotes the emancipation of women. When men care about children as much,
there is no problem in having kids and a career for women (and men).

~~~
msandford
Feminism is about empowerment and choices. Being empowered to choose not to
get married and have kids as I read it, considering that in the Western world
that was "a woman's role" for probably centuries. At least as long as we've
had patriarchy, which is quite a while.

Once women have the freedom to choose not to get married, have kids, etc it
seems likely that some choose not to and thus the rise of feminism is roughly
correlated with a decline in birthrates.

I've tidied this up in a nice little causal package but it's quite likely not
so clear cut. But it certainly does seem that way at a glance. Which is why
the notion gets such good traction amongst some.

------
raverbashing
In the midst of all, this seems to be one of the best parts of it:

"Tomita says a woman's chances of promotion in Japan stop dead as soon as she
marries. "The bosses assume you will get pregnant." Once a woman does have a
child, she adds, the long, inflexible hours become unmanageable. "You have to
resign. You end up being a housewife with no independent income. It's not an
option for women like me."

Great, so if a woman marries she loses independence and her own income, and
then people don't know why women don't want to marry?

Same thing here:

"Romantic commitment seems to represent burden and drudgery, from the
exorbitant costs of buying property in Japan to the uncertain expectations of
a spouse and in-laws"

~~~
intelliot
Notably, it appears that prior generations had higher birthrates because women
were not expected to participate in the workforce. They didn't want to and/or
weren't allowed to. They were treated differently than men.

A potential downside of making women equal to men is that they become more
similar. They don't need each other. They don't complement each other anymore.
Opposites attract, but if women are expected to succeed in the same way as
men, then the prior balance is lost.

~~~
randomafrican
It's more an imbalance between social expectations and modern living.

More conservative societies see a steeper decline in birthrate as women
participation in the workforce increases.

That's why France has one of the highest birthrate in Europe for instance.

~~~
novalis78
I disagree, I think the opposite is the case. American Caucasians have a
higher fertility rate than almost all Western Europeans; birth rates in France
typically include recent immigrant fertility rates which are significantly
higher. The arguments to avoid children are similar to the Japanese:
independence, more money for consumption, etc

Disclaimer: I grew up in Germany/Austria and find the topic of Europeqn
demographics quite intriguing

~~~
camus2
Yeah but it's because you get a lot of welfare when you have babies in
France,especially when you have 3 or more.

Stop giving these freebies and fertility rates will drop in no time.

The question is , should we encourage it? in the long run ,it doesnt make
sense. We often hear on the radio here how Germans dont make babies anymore
and it will doom Germany. I dont think so, one country doesnt need perpetual
population growth in order to survive, i believe Germans are smarter on these
issues.

~~~
guard-of-terra
"doesnt need perpetual population growth" It's no longer about growth, it's
about decline now.

Can a country with perpetually declining and aging population survive? In what
form?

~~~
amercade
I don't think than "perpetual" is going to happen to any trend.

------
alinajaf
Very interesting article, multiple points to make:

If living and being in Japan has taught me anything, it's that generalising
from anecdote is not a good idea.

Case in point, if you visit an outlet mall a few miles outside of central
Sendai on a weekend, you'd have a lot of trouble convincing anyone that
Japanese people aren't making enough babies. It was very, _very_ difficult to
spot single people, or even couples without babies crawling all over them on
our one day out there.

In a population of nearly 130 million, if there's _any_ generalisation you
want to make about Japanese people, you'll find enough anecdotes to put
together into a convincing article.

On the usage of _mendokusai_ , I think the author of the article may have
misunderstood in the situation he's describing. I believe that in this
situation _mendokusai_ meant "It's tiresome to be constantly propositioned by
male colleagues at work" rather than "I would have sex with everyone, but I
can't be bothered". IME you use _mendokusai_ whenever you're tired of
something, along with describing a task that is tiresome.

~~~
rhytha
afaik, mendokusai = messy. But Japanese language is context base, so you can
use same words for multiple situations.

~~~
alinajaf
From jisho.org[1]: 面倒くさい - _bother(some) to do; tiresome_

Also the word 面倒 translates to _trouble, difficulty; care; attention;_ , so
that with +くさい would make it troublesome.

I've not heard it being used for _messy_ , unless perhaps you mean messy as in
a messy situation (rather than say, a messy room).

[1]:
[http://jisho.org/words?jap=%E9%9D%A2%E5%80%92%E3%81%8F%E3%81...](http://jisho.org/words?jap=%E9%9D%A2%E5%80%92%E3%81%8F%E3%81%95%E3%81%84&eng=&dict=edict)

------
emiliobumachar
Is there hard evidence that this is bad?

Resource depletion is among the highest risks to civilization. Seems
straightforward that severe population decline should be desired, and
voluntary refraining from reproduction should be welcome.

(Please don't just extrapolate the trend till extinction. See
[http://xkcd.com/605/](http://xkcd.com/605/). )

~~~
randomafrican
We're not Pandas. Ressource depletion is only a problem if our ressource
consumption doesnt evolve. And it will evolve.

~~~
emiliobumachar
True enough, but such evolution, in the purely darwinian sense of the word,
may involve a lot of war and atrocities.

In the worst case, it could bring the bloody end of civilization as we know
it.

I agree that society and technology could evolve us through a much more
desirable path. But the more time we can buy for that to happen, the better.

~~~
mattchew
> I agree that society and technology could evolve us through a much more
> desirable path. But the more time we can buy for that to happen, the better.

I would inflect this differently. An open and free society is much more likely
to figure out a desirable path for the future than one steered by central
authority.

(In fact, it is the accumulation of thousands or millions of small
improvements that will, in retrospect, be seen as a desirable path.)

Desiring "extra" conservation of the resources that today seem most limited,
might not necessarily be incompatible with an open and unplanned society. But
it usually is.

~~~
emiliobumachar
I agree with all your points, but, regarding the last sentence, I'd like to
point out that this is definitely one of the (perhaps rare) cases in which a
desire for radical conservation is compatible with openness and freedom.

I'm talking about letting people _choose_ not to reproduce (textbook freedom),
instead of having a government policy to influence them to revert their
choices for the perceived greater good (central planning).

------
tokenadult
This article would be a lot more informative if it looked at some other
countries for comparison and contrast. Other countries that have been in the
news for a high age of first marriage and a very low birthrate are Italy and
Taiwan. What is similar about those countries, and what is different about
them, alongside Japan? I have read that Taiwan (where I have lived during two
different three-year periods of foreign residence and work) has the highest
age of first marriage, and one of the lowest birthrates, of any country in the
world. But Taiwan's culture is distinct from that of Japan, and some of the
relevant workplace conditions and government policies are a bit different too.
So what is the causation here?

~~~
speeder
This also happened to late roman empire, just before their collapse.

I know you like links, but I am busy now and cannot re-find them...

But basically, any country that is prosperous enough to women work in equal
terms to men in a safe environment (ie: police exists and army is strong),
ends having women rights movements, a acceptance of homosexuals, and a sharp
rise in individualism.

Then a mix of this happen (usually all of it, and it DID happened in Rome):

no-fault divorce (prompting huge amount of women-initiated divorces, and then
men stopping marriages) babysitters and daycare (because women are not home to
take care of children) great numbers of women that prefer their careers over
marriage great numbers of men men that prefer goofing around instead of having
responsability over a household.

All this usually results in decline of births, and debt problems as countries
start to debase their currency in a attempt to keep the same standard of
living for the old while there is not enough young people (this is much worse
in countries with military all over the globe, like Rome)

Then you start having governments defaulting on obligations to pay police and
army, undoing the conditions that allowed the equality, then your country
either drift back to a previous condition, or if it was big enough and
streched far enough, it collapses (like Rome did, as your defaulted police and
army, immigrants covering for lack of native young people, and lack of native
young people to defend their native land, makes your country a sitting duck
for anyone that want to bring it down)

------
usernew1817
[http://www.vice.com/the-vice-guide-to-travel/the-japanese-
lo...](http://www.vice.com/the-vice-guide-to-travel/the-japanese-love-
industry)

------
netcan
There is something about Japan that really brings home the meaning of
'foreign' to me.

I think that being the first rich, advanced large country that isn't western
is the reason. On paper, they have a similar relationship with money,
technology, their religion and traditional culture. I can't explain the
strangeness away with those differences.

When I read something like this about some trend or supposed cultural
pathology cropping up, I have nothing to connect it to. I don't intuitively
get where its coming from or why. Not even a hint. I don't know whether to
dismiss it as conservatives concerned with something harmless, some fringe
phenomenon or whatever.

~~~
DasIch
Actually this phenomenon isn't that foreign. Less children being born, a
falling number of "serious" relationships etc. are all things that can be
observed in any technologically advanced society.

Japan is just an extreme case because their current set of values doesn't
deviate as much from more traditional values, which escalates the problem.

Germany is actually somewhat similiar to Japan when it comes to these issues
and while the results are by far not as extreme the reasons are very similar:
lack of government support for modern types of families and traditional values
that still have a strong impact on how children are supposed to be raised.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
None of my childres/nieces/nephews are married or have childred. They are all
approaching their 30s. Something is going on.

In a previous generation ALL would be married, ALL would have at least one
child.

------
ceautery
I loved the picture of the couple leaning away from each other; I think I was
supposed to see that as an indicator of the purported epidemic.

I think what the article was, however, was an advertisement for the former
dominatrix. Apparently you can pay her to talk to you about women, pay her
more to get naked while she talks about women, and maybe if you play your
cards right...

~~~
jpatokal
Generously assuming your comment is merely clueless instead of intentionally
offensive, that sort of subtlety would hardly be necessary, as finding
commercial sex in Tokyo is trivial. Most larger train station have red-light
districts in the immediate vicinity, with (Japanese-only) signage making it
extremely clear what's available.

~~~
ceautery
I have no interest in what's available in Tokyo, only in how Abigail got that
mess of an article taken seriously.

You have bold claims regarding my understanding and intent to offend.
Elaborate.

~~~
dthunt
I have literally been propositioned on the street between Shibuya and Ikejiri.
Places I would not have expected it.

I can't speak to signage, as I generally steer clear of areas that seem shady,
and I wouldn't put a lot of trust into such things anyway.

Regarding the source of much of the information in this article, I have little
to offer. If you were to weigh the hypothesis that the source was advertising
services against the hypothesis that this came up in conversation with the
article author and she found this worth noting, which do you think is more
likely, given that this is interesting information that is unlikely to be left
out of a sex-charged article?

In this case, being charitable about the parties involved in this article is
probably correct.

------
seivan
There was a really cool (aren't they usually?) Vice documentary about all the
intimacy substitutes available for people in Japan. Easy to google up.

~~~
k-mcgrady
Here's the link [http://www.vice.com/the-vice-guide-to-travel/the-japanese-
lo...](http://www.vice.com/the-vice-guide-to-travel/the-japanese-love-
industry)

------
InclinedPlane
Because parents and schools in the developed world have stopped raising kids
and have instead opted for 18+ years of babysitting. Part of the problem is
that we don't even know what we're about anymore, so we don't know what
lessons and principles to pass on to our children. It's a wonder that the
problem isn't far worse than it is already.

~~~
einhverfr
One of the major things I see though in the article is the way in which modern
corporate capitalism isolates individuals and tries to place career above
family.

~~~
alexeisadeski3
You mean how individual people choose to place career above family? Don't see
how modern corporate capitalism is doing that.

~~~
einhverfr
Having lived in some other countries, I disagree. This corresponds with
corporate domination of the economy. Where small businesses dominate, family
becomes more important. The reason is that family becomes the primary source
of small business capital.

~~~
einhverfr
(The family also becomes the source of one's "career" as well. It isn't that
women don't participate in family businesses. They do, extensively. It's that
family and work time are no longer separated by a wall.)

------
unsignedint
Few things I'm reading from Japanese people (albeit, I won't say this is
unbiased observation) often cite unrealistic expectations of their partner's
income, look, and personality.

So, I've looked into the government research about it, at least for income
part as it is being tangible. [1]

As for income, there have been some research that lifetime unmarried rate
would collaborate with income. (Mostly for male) [2]

Their research further says that "In 2010, for male percentage of marriage for
permanent employee is 27.7% while same for temp workers are 6.7%, resulting in
about 20% of difference, while for female it is 28.2% for permanent workers,
and 25.8% for temp workers, shows the much less difference. Therefore the
increased rate of male temp workers is contributing to unmarriage rate or
marriage at an older age. [3]

[1]
[http://www.mlit.go.jp/hakusyo/mlit/h24/hakusho/h25/index.htm...](http://www.mlit.go.jp/hakusyo/mlit/h24/hakusho/h25/index.html).

[2]
[http://www.mlit.go.jp/hakusyo/mlit/h24/hakusho/h25/image/n10...](http://www.mlit.go.jp/hakusyo/mlit/h24/hakusho/h25/image/n1020790.gif)

[3]
[http://www.mlit.go.jp/hakusyo/mlit/h24/hakusho/h25/html/n122...](http://www.mlit.go.jp/hakusyo/mlit/h24/hakusho/h25/html/n1221000.html)

~~~
Crake
I think I remember a study a while back that found that women expect their
future husband(s) to make more than them, even though women make equal to men
or more in my country. Naturally, this makes "good men" (according to this
rather sexist definition of suitability) hard if not impossible to find.

Women have been liberated from a lot of their gender roles, but seem fine with
keeping men in theirs.

------
smegel
Ah, the sordid British fascination with sex in East Asia raises its head
again...

~~~
UnoriginalGuy
Did you read the article? Japan seems like it will have some serious social
ramifications of this in the upcoming years. That's worthy of discussion.

~~~
smegel
Yes, but you can talk about demographic trends without delving into fetishism
and sexualization. As strange as it sounds, there isn't much relation between
sex and the choice to have children, from my understanding Japanese women are
rejecting motherhood because it cancels whatever limited career opportunities
they may have had. In other words, like most demographic trends, it is driven
by economics.

Of course to a sexually repressed Brit walking through Shibuya with a childish
smirk and a hard-on surrounded by sexually voracious vixens (in his mind at
least), sex is everywhere and needs to at least be a sub theme on any
reporting on Japan. Cringeworthy.

~~~
jpatokal
While I don't disagree with you that economics and the plight of the working
woman in Japan is a major cause of the dismal birth rate, there's definitely
more to it than just that. In particular, the "herbivore man" phenomenon is
definitely A Thing in Japan, and the WP article claims that anywhere between
36% and 71% (!) of Japanese men under 30 now self-identify as herbivores:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbivore_men](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbivore_men)

Can you imagine a survey in any Western country where even 36% of young men
would willingly fess up to _voluntarily_ avoiding any romantic relationships?

(And FWIW, I'm married to a Japanese woman, and our contribution to the birth
rate is already above the national average.)

~~~
VLM
"turn their backs on typical "masculine" and corporate roles"

So they're basically hippies, although for cultural reasons the girls don't
think their hippies are cool, so they get less sex not more.

One interesting effect of huge rates of freeters and neets is some segment of
the salarymen feel they're just one bad review or whatever from permanent
downgrade into freeter / neet status, or at least the girls may think that
about them. So the percentage of people behaving like freeters / neets
probably is somewhat larger than the demographic percentage of freeter/neets.

Well, no girl my age would ever have anything to do with me because I'm poor
and have no future, so, uh, yeah I'm not looking thats the story I'll tell so
I feel a little better. Pout and quit is hardly unknown in the west "Oh so you
guys are cheating and stacking the game against me, well F you I'm taking my
(two) balls and going home". Although with the decline of casual neighborhood
play this might be an unknown social situation for our young... In the past it
was not unheard of, screw over the kid who brought the tennis ball and he
takes it and goes home and no one plays...

Don't end up like a teen parent, don't have relationships and kids until you
can afford it... well, what if the economic deck is stacked such that 25% will
never, ever be able to afford it? Well, until the inevitable revolution,
you'll get weird things like young people not having sex.

Finally the whole topic is super hetro-normative so I think we can all safely
assume at least 5% or so are in the closet.

So 5% in closet, in 2000, in better times, 10% were NEETs per govt figures, in
better times 30% were freeters (some of whom do get some...) maybe 10% of
salarymen (or more precisely, the girls checking them out) accurately or
inaccurately believe they're one unlucky event away from permanent downgrade
into freeter/neet (is there significant upward mobility in Japan from
freeter/neet? Not that I've read/heard?) So that's 55% right there although
some of the freeters ARE probably getting some. Of course not everyone reacts
to being screwed over by withdrawing; in the US they sometimes go out
shooting, etc. Fixing the withdrawl problem without fixing the economic
stressors is likely just to result in different negative social reactions WRT
weapons etc.

------
n1ghtm4n
Why has no one brought up overcrowding in Japan? You don't think that's going
to affect the birth rate?

[http://inventorspot.com/articles/six_startling_scenes_overcr...](http://inventorspot.com/articles/six_startling_scenes_overcrowded_6802)

~~~
kalleboo
Meanwhile the Japanese countryside is depopulating at an amazing rate, leaving
ghost towns in their wake, with elementary schools built for 700 students
housing 2.

~~~
n1ghtm4n
That's not necessarily a bad thing! People move to cities to find a better
life, and they usually find it. That's great unless you think a life of rural
poverty is some kind of noble virtue.

The global population is 7.1 billion and rising fast. We should all cheer when
we hear these statistics.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization#Environmental_eff...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization#Environmental_effects)

------
jimgardener
Not all people in India have premarital sex.In cities it may be different.But
in rural areas very few does.This is not something people discuss with a
journalist.I know many young men belonging to Christian communities who
consider sex outside of marriage as a bad thing.

------
alkonaut
The problem isn't so much the sex is it? The problem is of course demographic.
Related, but not the same. Amazingly the government of Japan surely
understands the problem at hand, and still refuses to act. Labour laws of
course cannot allow an employer to fire someone (or choose not to hire) based
on pregnancy (or being a woman of that age). There is only one sure way of
making women as desirable to hire in this respect: ensure men stay at home
with children just as much as women. State subsidized childcare and a year or
two of paid maternal/paternal leave per child would be a net win for Japan (as
it is for most such countries).

------
njharman
"I can't be bothered."

Sums up my feelings pretty much exactly. I lack much, if any parental
instincts. I also lack any family or peer pressure to marry and make babies.
Without the push to produce offspring relationships have more downsides than
up. Children 10 times as so.

I enjoy relationships (well most of them). But, there is so much to do and
experience in the world. I'll never get to all before I die. There's no reason
to spend my time in sub-optimal pursuits.

------
analog31
There's an analogous effect that's reportedly been around for a long time,
possibly worldwide: An anti-correlation between birth rates and things like
the education and economic empowerment of women. In addition, even the US has
seen a decline in birth rates resulting from economic stagnation. Is Japan an
exception, or merely an extreme case due to the tenacity of workplace sex
discrimination?

------
graycat
The Japanese in the article are missing out on what man/woman love can really
mean and the value it can have.

So there should be not just 'friction' but 'love' (with the help that Mother
Nature provides) with commitment, caring, affection, intimacy, passion,
joining of lives, vows, romance, trust (he doesn't return from a business trip
and discover that she's drained the checkbook and savings account, took the
best of the household belongings and the dog, and is gone), respect,
responsiveness (they respond to each other), supportive families (e.g., he
gets a job in her father's business), collection of activities, memories, and
traditions like, don't want to lose, can't get anywhere else, and that cause
'lock in', homes ("where the heart is, where you are loved even when you are
wrong"), and children ("the most rewarding thing we did").

Joining? For a few hundred years in Western Civilization, standard marriage
vows started off with "We gather together to _join_ this man and this women
with the bonds of holy matrimony.", and there is wisdom there.

Or, for a more direct explanation, she has two legs. He has two legs. If she
breaks a leg, then she is down to one leg to help her broken leg get well. But
joined with him with good vows, commitment, etc. they have four legs with
three good legs to help her broken leg get well. The three legs are three
times better than just the one. Can rattle off 10,000 such cases faster than
can say them.

People don't want to be alone. Being alone is scary. Nearly all baby mammals
know this. Being joined to someone is much more secure.

This can be great stuff, some of the best in life, even without children, and
one night stands are nothing like the same. The article omitted nearly all the
really good stuff.

------
nctorn
I see this trend in other industrialized countries, like in western Europe. I
believe probably a very important cause of this demographic imbalance is the
equality factor. Women work same as men, earn same as men and feel empowered.
This is great for the individual, but then the society as a whole remains out
of equilibrium.

For some reason being independent (able to buy what I want, when I want it and
work 20 hours a day) is better than rising a family and having children.
Things that are after all, the reason of what as species, are suppose to be
doing in this planet.

The signal is then clear, you fail to do that, but being to extinct. This is
exactly what begins where this trends are prevalent. Perhaps we need to
rethink the roles and if being independent is something that in the long term
will create more value for the group.

------
Futurebot
When we talk about the medium or long term, we should also start to consider
the impact of life-extension, and more importantly, youth preservation
technologies; the entire issue of "young supporting the old" disppears if
people stop aging. There is virtually no government support for research to
support this, even though we should consider it one of the most important
issues in history (and many diseases simply a subset of the "disease" of
aging.) Perhaps trends like the ones discussed in the article will get
governments thinking about it (and having Google investing in this area is a
nice boost.)

------
camus2
Who is buying all these JAV videos that make US gonzo look like Disney
cartoons ? too much of it is definetly not good for the mind, especially those
about v...t or o...p.....s

~~~
networked
I don't know what "v...t" or "o...p.....s" means but consider that you might
be confusing the cause and effect here: assuming that there's correlation
between consuming $WEIRD_PORN and being unable to have normal relationships
[1] it may not be that people become unable to have those relationships due to
exposure to $WEIRD_PORN so much as that people who turn to $WEIRD_PORN were
already unable to have them. This creates demand and $WEIRD_PORN gets
produced.

[1] "Normal" a defined by a given society.

Edit: removed a comparison of the parent poster's argument to "violent video
games make people violent".

~~~
camus2
My point is about porn in general. I'm from a generation that did not have
access to porn easily. today some 12 yo kids are already addicted to porn,and
not the softcore stuff. There will be huge consequences.

I dont think i'm confused about causality here. If you cant get excited unless
you see or do extreme stuff, you're going to have a pretty difficult libido,as
in reality not that many women are willing to "perfom" these "stunts".

I dont think one needs to be already interested in extreme fetish in order to
get hooked to it,the more one looks at porn the more one seeks extreme stuffs.
It's like any other addiction.

> I don't know what "v...t" or "o...p.....s"

Nevermind , i was saying that japanese porn is well known for its extreme
fetish.

~~~
networked
>I dont think one needs to be already interested in extreme fetish in order to
get hooked to it,the more one looks at porn the more one seeks extreme stuffs.
It's like any other addiction.

I agree, but my point was that people who see enough porn to get to the really
weird stuff are probably more likely the ones who didn't care for real-life
relationships already (in a society where these two things a correlated).

Edit: clarity.

~~~
camus2
You know , back in 2005 , it was the WAP years, i used to work for a VOD
business specialised in video content for phones(any content,sport,erotic,tv
shows...).

My job was to source content and manage a mobile video website. that's when i
got exposed to JAV. So a business we worked with sent us "classic" JAV. And
frankly , it was the most extreme stuff i saw back then. There is definetly
something cultural. I think japanese get exposed to stuff we would label as
extreme , yet for the business i was dealing with it was normal JAV.

And i'm from a country which is quite open minded about sex(one of our first
lady was an ex model who did nude photos, i dont think it would be ok in US).

~~~
Sagat
France isn't really that open minded about sex. Although most people are
secular, you still have the whole judaeo-christian morals hanging around in
the background, subtly changing everybody's behavior. Eh ouais.

~~~
gaius
France is also a country where paternity testing is illegal.

------
sexjpfr
For those of you that know french.

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PRPnG_se_o&hd=1](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PRPnG_se_o&hd=1)

------
philwelch
I can't help but read these stories and think, "well I guess that's what a
dying culture looks like".

------
21echoes
[http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2013/10/23/are_japanes...](http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2013/10/23/are_japanese_people_really_having_less_sex_than_anyone_else.html)

------
UUMMUU
I like it how they're trying to "fix" the population decline. A population
decline might actually be a good thing for our species. There are too many
people and an ever increasing sense of stupidity

~~~
victorhooi
Well, yes, until you actually think it through, and realise that this also
means your population is _aging_...

Basically, you have a bunch of old people around, and nobody to support them,
or fuel the society.

And after a certain point, you can't reverse it, and you no longer have a
viable society.

------
nhangen
Who needs it when, for an extra fee, your 'therapist' will get naked and give
you a tour of the female body.

Talk about blurred lines.

------
graycat
Okay, take a town 60 years ago. Lots of people, say,

o driving cars with tires that last only 15,000 miles,

o driving cars with engines that last only 80,000 miles (due to poor
lubrication due to water and gasoline in the oil due to inaccurate fuel
mixture and ignition),

o typing on typewriters with carbon paper,

o doing business communications with printing and/or typing on paper sent by
USPS,

o an office telephone switchboard manned by employees.

Now enter new technology, and each of these activities uses some automation,
is much cheaper, and puts the old employees out of work.

So, have lots of unemployed people with little or no money who want to make
money and consume but cannot get jobs.

Why not jobs? For one, the total number of jobs shrank, and as in musical
chairs some people don't get one.

For another, to create more jobs need some ideas for new products/services,
some capital to get the businesses going, and some qualified employees. The
unemployed people will need some new training, that is, investments in 'human
capital'.

As we know from depressions, can have a shortage of capital, lots of people
not consuming who want to work but no jobs for them to do. Then if have a war,
suddenly can have three jobs for everyone who can work at all.

There is also an effect of the ratios of people to land and other natural
resources. With high density population, the prices of such resources
increase. Maybe when the population of Japan, Finland, France, Germany,
Russia, the US, etc. shrink, the new ratio will make it easier for a couple to
form a family. E.g., if the population is low enough that a young couple can
easily buy 200 acres of good farm land, then there will be some new
alternatives for that couple to form a family. Now at maybe $5000 an acre,
let's, see, 200 acres would be $1 million. She's 18; he's 22; and where are
they going to get $1 million or even a down payment plus farm equipment and
materials for a house?

Presumably in time startups will find new products and services that people
want and that can make use of the unemployed.

But, in that town when automation put the typists out of work, the jobs of
some people were not affected and, first cut, by having the company spend much
less on typing, could pay their remaining employees more. So, some people are
doing well.

And in Japan, the article seems to suggest that real estate prices are so high
that no one can afford them! No! Instead, real estate prices are so high just
because enough people actually can afford them. So, some people are doing
well, and maybe they, or their lucky heirs, are forming traditional families.

------
nkhodyunya
Sex nowadays became a redundant, obsolete, risky, overcomplicated act which
you can totally avoid with the help of good porn. So why bother with searching
partner, if you can have all of sex benefits alone, but with porn or good
imagination.

~~~
graycat
Sex? Add in commitment, caring, affection, intimacy, romance, joining of
lives, a good version of passion, a collection of memories, activities,
traditions really like, don't want to lose, can't get anywhere else, and,
thus, cause 'lock in', vows, supportive families, children ("most rewarding
thing we did"), etc. One night stands are not very good on passion; it takes a
while for a caring, loving couple to be good with each other with passion. One
night stands are at best just mutual friction, and a simple electrical
appliance can replace that.

She has two legs. He has two legs. If she breaks a leg, then she is down to
one leg to help her broken leg get well. But joined with him with good vows,
commitment, etc. they have four legs with three good legs to help her broken
leg get well. Can rattle off 10,000 such cases faster than can say them.

People don't want to be alone. Being alone is scary. Nearly all baby mammals
know this. Being joined to someone is much more secure.

~~~
nkhodyunya
This probably must sound reasonable, at least for a guy who was taught this
things during his whole life. But as for me, any relationships I can imagine
with a human being is a painful nightmare. I don't really know if I enjoy
loneliness or not, but at least I don't find it painful at all.

~~~
Crake
I think I can sort of relate.

------
squirejons
ever notice how the corporate media is always trying get more people into the
developed nations? Mass immigration! More people! More People! More Babies!
MOAR! MOAR!

This baby dearth, combined with the ability of the japanese to keep their
elites from increasing mass immigration, means less supply of labor, which
means higher wage (remember supply and demand? It applies to labor, too). That
means that the corporations that support the corporate media via advertising
buys will pay more for labor. The media hates that!

Also, fewer people means fewer consumers for the products advertised in the
media. The media hates that!

The media is the enemy of the majority working class citizen of the developed
nations.

~~~
pcurve
Japan hasn't quite embraced foreign immigration the way many of its European
counterparts have. It's an interesting demographic and economics experiments
whose results we shall find out in coming 30-50 years.

I'm willing to bet a lot of money that the low-birth rate trend will reverse
at some point. A country with 1.2 birth rate will cease to exist in 200 years,
and I just don't see that happening.

More interesting questions to ask is:

1\. What will trigger the trend reversal, and make young people reproduce
more? (My guess is, vast reduction in standard of living and GDP)

2\. And how long will it take for Japan to recover from the damage sustained?

In a long run, I think Japan can pull it off. It will be in better shape than
Europe 50 years from now.

