
Wunderlist founder wants to buy his app back from Microsoft - mpweiher
https://venturebeat.com/2019/09/06/wunderlist-founder-wants-to-buy-his-app-back-from-microsoft/
======
amix
If you are looking for an alternative todo app that is in it for the long
haul, check out Todoist. We have been at it longer than Wunderlist (12+
years), and we will never sell out. As I like to put it, death is my exit
strategy. For more thoughts about this, check out [https://doist.com/blog/no-
exit-strategy/](https://doist.com/blog/no-exit-strategy/)

~~~
Mayzie
Can somebody please explain the advantages of a todo app, like Todoist, over
say a calendar app like Google Calendar? Everyone seems to love them, but
cannot give me a good reason _why_, other than "I use it to jot down little
tasks which I don't think a Calendar app is suitable for." I'm a current
subscriber to Todoist, but just don't see why I should pay when Google
Calendar seems to do everything I need (and more)? As an ADHD sufferer, the
reminder system in most todo apps only remind you once about 30 minutes prior
to the task due and that's it, instead of being able to delay a reminder and
remind me again 5 minutes before a task is due, 1 minute, or even 5 minutes
after a task is due.

~~~
will_pseudonym
One thing a calendar app wouldn't handle as well is tasks that don't have due
dates, per se.

~~~
umeshunni
The other reason I use a task list is for tasks that have subtasks. E.g. I
have to renew my driver's license but to do that I need to file a foobar form
and print out a proof of address etc..

~~~
satvikpendem
You may be interested in my app that has subtasks as calendar events:
[https://getartemis.app](https://getartemis.app)

------
noego
Microsoft has a directly competing product, so I don't see why they would ever
want to sell Wunderlust. They would essentially be creating their own
competitor, in return for a fraction of the money they had paid to acquire
Wunderlist earlier.

~~~
Barrin92
then again I doubt that the microsoft empire stands or falls with a to-do list
app and it might just be good PR to sell it back instead of letting a well-
liked product rot given that they're on an alleged "we love the community"
campaign now.

~~~
earenndil
Good PR--sure. $100M worth of PR? I don't think so.

------
vxNsr
Please make this a reality.

To-Do is a joke compared to Wunderlist. It suffers from the same fate as all
MS-built iOS apps: random logouts. I can't convince anyone to use MS apps
because the first time they get logged out after an update they just stop
using the app.

~~~
discreditable
And God help them if they somehow have a work/school and personal Microsoft
account and don't remember which one they used.

~~~
Marsymars
Is this somehow worse with MS accounts than with Google or Apple accounts?

~~~
iamnotacrook
Yeah, I can't even log into my MS account to do MSDN stuff. Microsoft support:
"Use any non-microsoft browser". I ended up creating a "personal" and
"work/school" account as part of the process, and I think I have to pretend
it's the personal account when I log in. I get the feeling I was creating two
accounts - a live account and one related to the MSDN side of things, and they
are linked in some way. Why...just why? Why can't I just create one account,
and don't come up with this specious personal/private distinction. I wonder if
they're making decisions on products etc based on what sort of users they
think they're dealing with. Personal MSDN customers?

~~~
aquark
Microsoft accounts are definitely a mess.

I had a Microsoft account from a long time back: me@company.com

Years later the company decides to adopt the whole office365 thing and so
company.com is now 'managed' by MSFT for email, etc .... so I have a
me@company.com 'company' account as well as the 'personal' one.

I'm sure there are a lot of complicated edge cases around all of this which
make moving forward really tough for MSFT without breaking things, but the
current status quo is confusing and very user hostile.

------
kossae
I loved Wunderlist, and after the announcement of the acquisition I went
looking for alternatives. It turns out, I didn't _really_ need "sub-tasks" or
collaborative comments on my TODOs. All I really needed was shared lists,
dependable reminder push notifications, and perhaps some location-
based/geofencing features.

This is all covered by the stock iOS Reminders app. I use Fantastical as the
'GUI' instead of Reminders, but basically use my e-mails CalDAV server
(Fastmail) to manage my lists now, and have retained the reliability and
subset of features that I needed. It's been great so far, and it's virtually
free as part of your standard email/calendar service (Gmail/Calendar,
Fastmail, etc.).

------
preek
If you are looking for something more sustainable (free software), with the
same client for desktop and mobile, please check out organice:
[https://github.com/200ok-ch/organice](https://github.com/200ok-ch/organice)

It’s using Org syntax, but has a mobile friendly interface. Synchronization is
done using Dropbox or Google Drive, so you can also have shared projects and
todos. The app is written in React and Redux, has a AGPL license and has a
free public instance at [https://organice.200ok.ch](https://organice.200ok.ch)

------
bnt
I tried to use To Do this summer and gave up after a few weeks. Across Windows
and iOS: notifications mostly don’t fire, apps kept reloading content every
time I opened them (aka no cloud = no functionality). In the end, I gave up
and just resumed using a combo of Reminders and Notes.

~~~
reaperducer
I had a similar experience, but without the Windows element.

I paid for Wunderlist, but dropped it because it evolved into something more
convoluted than I wanted. I went back to the stock iOS apps.

I didn't even know what Microsoft ate Wunderlist. I guess that's why I got an
e-mail about Wunderlist out of the blue after I hadn't used it in what seemed
like years.

------
hobofan
Given how unrealistic reviving Wunderlist is (almost everyone of the original
employees is working on other things inside Microsoft or has left), this ought
to be a PR stunt, right? He might as well start from scratch at this point.

~~~
kjksf
This might provoke strong responses from hacker / programmer crowd, but...

Relatively speaking, building a small team of capable engineers is much easier
than getting a business, especially in a competitive space like TODO lists, to
13+ million users (their numbers in 2015 at the time of Microsoft
acquisition).

~~~
o-__-o
I find the complete 180 to be true. Very easy to get a business into a
competitive space, but it’s hard to build a capable team of engineers. If you
have both money and a solid idea to generating revenue (business plan) then
you have solved both problems easily, relatively speaking. Engineers come
together with the universal language.. money. Something startups don’t have.

~~~
nvrspyx
They said getting a business to 13million+ users, not getting a business into
a competitive space alone. The point is the users are where the money is and
getting to that many users is the most difficult part, neither gathering a
group of engineers nor entering a competitive space.

~~~
o-__-o
Like Lyft? Throw money at customers and they come flocking. Same with
engineers. It’s making that model profitable that’s the hard spot

------
viach
I don't understand, why Microsoft is porting features from Wunderlist to their
To-Do instead of just shutting down To-Do and add small shiny MS logo to
Wunderlist? As far as I can see, WL is more feature rich and has better user
base, no?

~~~
maklu
Wunderlist still runs on AWS. To-Do runs on a Microsoft back-end, including
all security features needed for their enterprise (O365) customers..

~~~
vxNsr
This would make a great case study for migrating a full stack AWS app to
Azure. They're constantly trying to convince their customers to migrate to
full stack Azure, here's their chance to prove it's doable. Dog food and all,
I'm sure they'll find some pain points they could fix.

~~~
sabarn01
Not doable. Most azure services are not "compliant" for o365. Especially not
in gov clouds. Exchange has its own totally separate backed which existed
before azure. The port of wonderlist is to exchange.

------
grizzles
This is an odd form of public shaming. Satya ought to respond to him on
Twitter that it's a deal if he'd be willing to pay 50% of the price they paid
him for it. A shame back if you will.

------
dade_
I am still awe at how bad MS is at making Windows apps. To Do is a poster
child. I think Visio uses less RAM, is extremely laggy, slow to load, crashes
many times a week and has awful layout for pen input.

~~~
vezycash
>I am still awe at how bad MS is at making Windows apps.

They've gotten better at being bad. Before, apps crashed but at least they
were full featured, had two or three ways of doing the same thing - so you
could get shit done.

Now, stuff from MS is generally slower, still crash prone, looks fancy but is
bare-boned, updates remove the few useful stuff and replace em with half baked
alternatives or nothing.

~~~
kweinber
Yesterday HN had a front-page article about how making your app do less was
the key to making it more useful.

This is a meme I’ve never understood.... how is it more “useful” if it is less
“full of stuff to use”. When people equate streamlining experience with
feature removal you get this kind of frustration.

~~~
zapzupnz
I'd understand the reasoning if the removed features could possibly make more
sense in a separate app or some kind of optional add-on module, or if perhaps
the point is really about the user interface not being overwhelming — and yet
Microsoft manages to take apps with perfectly straight-forward user interfaces
and twist them until the one or two features that an app has are uselessly
hidden behind one or two hamburger menus.

------
thecleaner
Anybody using Remember the Milk for their todos ? I used it and loved it.

~~~
screaminghawk
I'm using one called "Out of Milk". It's great. Is that the one you mean or
something else?

~~~
thecleaner
I think the one you are referring to is a grocery shopping app. RTM is much
more general.

------
dash2
God, I wish Skype would buy their app back.

------
alexlin
The tweet from Wunderlist's Christian
([https://twitter.com/christianreber/status/117061566332663808...](https://twitter.com/christianreber/status/1170615663326638081))
reminds me a lot of Taskade YC S19
([https://www.taskade.com](https://www.taskade.com)) and what they are trying
to do in the productivity and collaboration space.

------
oh_sigh
What's the point of buying it back, if he can just start another similar
company and siphon off many active, disgruntled users? Yeah, you don't get to
keep the already registered userbase, or the brand, but I think former users
would flock to it if they knew the original people were in charge of this
product.

Is there something in the contract that they can't start a competing product
within X years, but could do a buyback?

~~~
chrisked
No, they never signed a non-compete
([https://twitter.com/christianreber/status/117066071599844966...](https://twitter.com/christianreber/status/1170660715998449665))

Also building a brand is not too easy
([https://twitter.com/christianreber/status/117063845983445811...](https://twitter.com/christianreber/status/1170638459834458113))

------
taksintikk
Did he sign a non-compete?

Rebuild something new/better.

~~~
sergiotapia
This is what the guy from meh.com did. Sold his woot com to some large
corporation saw they turned it into junk and he launched meh.com

~~~
baddox
The large corporation was Amazon.

------
helenax
Same feeling with the founder. It's pity to see Wunderlist go. Transferring
all the details from one todo app to another can be very annoying, not to
mention the extra efforts to get used with a new app. Glad to find TickTick!
The data transfer is super easy. It's kind of an all-in-one toolkit, while
still remains clear and simple to use. Not sure if I would switch back to
Wunderlist even if they purchase it back ;)
[https://ticktick.com/](https://ticktick.com/)

------
beardedman
I would start using WL again if this happens. 100%.

EDIT: I can't believe how much positive press MS To-Do has gotten. It's a
featureless rip-off of WL that could have been built in a month.

------
dannylandau
Always been a huge fan of Wunderlist, used it for my iPhone development
project, 1st time using a to-do list app and really loved it!

Here is one guy hoping/praying it comes back!!!!

------
demarq
This behaviour will hurt microsoft in the long term in negotiating future
deals. Founders often have very emotional connections to their company

------
johnchristopher
There maybe a window opportunity in the todo space at the moment for a GTD
oriented app. Look at thing that is only available for iOs. There's only
NirvanaHQ coming close and it's not moving much at the moment.

------
seapunk
I think that it's a good sign that we see more and more founders who publicly
admit that their creation is not between good hands after acquisition. Let's
hope Microsoft makes this thing happen.

~~~
duxup
Call me cynical but if they wanted it to be in good hands ... maybe don't take
the money and run?

Dude in one way or another cashed out and now wants to have his cake and eat
it too.

We get so many "founder sad about how things turned out after it is sold". If
the founder hands over the keys IMO to some extent they're "responsible" for
what happens next.

~~~
seapunk
Every founder has personal reasons to accept to be acquired, example here:
[https://twitter.com/christianreber/status/117064572184398233...](https://twitter.com/christianreber/status/1170645721843982336)

Also I don't think you are cynical. Don't take the money and continue to push
the product seems to be a better solution, especially for users. I just
appreciate that founders are more transparent about the fact their service is
failing after being acquired. And yes, they have a big part of the
responsability, but according to me it's a better signal than just heard the
typical story of celebrating an acquisition, join a tech giant and remain
silent. I like to see that people keep the bounds with their product even
after this. Also it's more honest for other entrepreneurs in the same
situation that becoming rich will be at the expense of your creation.

------
quickthrower2
What if he just builds a new app from scratch? Would probably be cheaper, but
he'd have to be careful to show no design or copyright has been infringed.

------
chad_strategic
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20750140](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20750140)

------
traderjane
Could it be that todo apps are kind of hard? What else explains the lethargic
pace of improvements for Microsoft’s own todo app?

~~~
vezycash
I don't know much about todos. But I know Microsoft. They're passionate about
fucking up every good thing they own. My uncle once told me, Too many spoons
in a pot makes the soup sour.

Microsoft upgrades things to death.

------
bit_4l
It sucks seeing MS kills Wunderlist. I’m always a huge fan of it. Simple,
intuitive.

------
wpdev_63
It blows my mind that todo list app can be worth $200 million... Then again a
chat app is now worth several billion... I don't have any idea of how this
works.

~~~
woadwarrior01
It isn't the chat app, it's the perpetual access to the contacts list on the
phones of all its users that is worth billions.

~~~
coss
To do what though?

~~~
Torwald
to drive down advertising costs.

~~~
thelittleone
Is it not also true that Whatsapp is (was) a competitor to FB? I mean, if I
wanted to get rid of FB, the only other place I know I can reach the majority
of my contacts is WhatsApp. Now since they own both I have no non-FB
alternative.

------
thedudeabides5
How much do y’all think they would let him buy it back for? $10mm?

------
baxtr
I never understood why wunderlist was so successful. Any hints?

~~~
hobofan
\- Shared to do lists (e.g. with your partner/spouse)

\- Very good platform coverage of clients

\- Good UX

I don't think the set of features is too impressive by todays standards, but
at the time it was pretty appealing compared to the competition.

~~~
steve_adams_86
Surprisingly (I thought anyway) WL was one of very few which support shared
lists effectively.

I bought Things for mac for myself and my partner at the time and was blown
away when I discovered a $60 CAD To Do list app couldn't share a list. WL
ended up being the best option by a long shot.

These days I use Todoist which can also share lists nicely.

------
mandeepj
Did he sign a return policy? :-)

------
gilrain
You don't usually have to tell this to an adult, but: no backsies.

Your can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't sell your company and keep
it too. Basic.

~~~
true_religion
Yeah, that’s why he wants to buy it back. They will get their money back.

~~~
adventured
Microsoft would get a fraction of their money back.

The former owners wouldn't pay more than 10-25% of what they previously sold
Wunderlist for, at this point.

~~~
mrieck
That's why this feels like a publicity stunt to shame Microsoft.

If you've made millions of dollars from selling something - I don't feel like
you have the right to shame the buyer especially if you're only offering 25%
back. He should have kept the offer he made private.

