
Pufferfish in China bred poison-free - ValentineC
https://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/food-drink/article/2185125/pufferfish-china-beijing-diners-lured-delicacy-now-country-has
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throwaway2016a
I find this part interesting:

> Wang says: “Chinese [people] have risked death to eat pufferfish for a long
> time. The government couldn’t inspect every household to implement the
> pufferfish ban. So it opened up the industry by legalising it.”

> Duan says that, thanks to the legalisation, and to the number of fisheries
> experts graduating from the Ocean University of China and Dalian Ocean
> University, “pufferfish dining will soon become hugely popular like the
> eating of crayfish”.

So something is dangerous and people are going to do it anyway so they
legalize it and try to make it safer instead of criminalizing it. The US could
learn from China on this one.

Edit: Not explicitly referring to puffer fish. Just I like the general idea
policy wise of using tools other than prohibition. I apologize for being off
topic a little. (even though I quote the article)

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gamblor956
_So something is dangerous and people are going to do it anyway so they
legalize it and try to make it safer instead of criminalizing it. The US could
learn from China on this one._

Pufferfish has been legal in the US for decades at least, there is a classic
Simpons episode in which Homer consumes one.

If you meant to comment on drug policy: many drugs are illegal not because of
the harm they cause to the user but because of the harm the user causes to
others, and it's not feasible to make a "safer" dose because the nature of
these drugs encourages addicts to use larger or stronger doses over time. This
is in contrast to alcohol [edit: and marijuana], which is legal because (a)
it's potency has remained unchanged for centuries, (b) it's easy to control
consumption, and (c) the amount of liquid necessary to be ingested to reach
debilitating or unsafe levels of intoxication are generally large enough that
this level of consumption is the exception, not the norm, among the alcohol-
consuming population.

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moosey
> many drugs are illegal not because of the harm they cause to the user but
> because of the harm the user causes to others, and it's not feasible to make
> a "safer" dose because the nature of these drugs encourages addicts to use
> larger or stronger doses over time.

I'm interested in how making them illegal abates this? It seems like a non-
sequitur to me. Further, even after making many natural drugs in categories
that did this, we legalized tons of opioids made by US manufacturers, so that
doesn't even follow with the actual law in the US.

Further, using alcohol regularly has a similar effect, and I'll bet you it's
far more dangerous over time.

I will suggest instead that drugs are illegal for two reasons: Moralization,
which is basically randomness applied to ethics; and because it allows our
justice system to pick and choose who to imprison.

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Pharmakon
_I will suggest instead that drugs are illegal for two reasons: Moralization,
which is basically randomness applied to ethics; and because it allows our
justice system to pick and choose who to imprison._

A third reason is that generally speaking, they cause a lot of pain and
suffering. I’m against prohibition, but dismissing it entirely as moralizing
and social control misses the very real dangers of drug abuse, and their
attendant social costs. It’s just that the only thing worse than the harm
caused by drugs, is the harm caused by drugs _and_ their prohibition.
Legalizing drugs is just step 1 though. Step 2 has to be a massive overhaul of
treatment for addicts and the mentally ill.

~~~
moosey
> they cause a lot of pain and suffering

Nothing compared to the US prison system, which is where we send people. It is
entirely moralizing. Our prison system is the way that it is because of a
specific morality in the US, just as so many laws and political positions that
exist. There is nothing ethical about it.

If you want people who are addicted to drugs to be able to free themselves
from the cycle in a country with a prison system like ours designed to cause
fear, you must make the drugs legal, so that coming forward isn't a permanent
personal threat.

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Torgo
The pain and suffering is also shouldered by people around the substance
abuser. While I don't disagree with you about prison, if much of innocent
parties' pain can be abated by taking the abuser out of the system, then it is
not just moralizing.

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mallomarmeasle
The article and it's title suggest that the toxin is "bred out" of the fish,
but it is actually a result of bioaccumulation from toxic organisms (eg
bacteria) in their environment. Fish cultured in tanks are naturally free from
it.
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugu](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugu)

~~~
nkingsy
Sounds like they do both. Further down in the article they mention selective
breeding over generations.

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ginko
It was always my understanding that the appeal of well-prepared pufferfish was
that it would still contain minute amounts of toxin to create a
prickly/numbing feeling in the mouth.

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aplc0r
I've had jellyfish in Taiwan and Japan, and it had a similar numbing effect.
It didn't taste like much, but the numbing was novel enough for me to want to
eat more.

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mallomarmeasle
Are you sure that it was not prepared with Szechuan peppercorns? It certainly
is numbing, and I've never experienced that from jellyfish.

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supernova87a
Although in principle, this kind of making meat safer is useful -- it probably
ends up being used to make standards + preparation more lax and doable by
unskilled people. (in this case, so more people in China for example can
access the exotic fish)

This happened with the USDA + US beef industry, they wanted to be able to
"cold sterilize" (irradiate) beef to eliminate E. coli. In principle why not,
but there was also the belief that the industry wanted it so it would catch
(and allow) mistakes in inspection and contamination to go through.

Maybe for some things, it's good to have it be hard and only some people
highly trained are allowed to do it, like fugu chefs...

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supernova87a
Also, consider the risk/reward -- You're counting on a lot of things to go
right in this new process, in order for it to not poison people. Cost of
policing the new breeding process, inspections, industry regulation.

For what benefit? Some more people get to taste an expensive bland fish that
isn't going to be feeding millions? I don't believe fugu can be raised in
captivity at scale.

Why bother?

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overcast
Now if they can only breed taste into them. This fish is mostly tasteless, and
the novelty of being dangerous is the reason for its consumption.

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AbyormPiranha
Problem: Pufferfish meat is delicious but it can kill you.

Japanese solution: we will employ the finest of artisans who have practiced
for five years to exactly remove the poisonous parts of the pufferfish. As
these artisans are specially-trained, we will also charge you at a most
exquisite price.

Chinese solution: we will just breed out the poison.

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myrandomcomment
I have had Fugu in Japan a number of times. The interesting thing is that they
never are able to get all the bad stuff out. Your lips will tingle and get
numb at some point.

It is damn good.

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m3kw9
Recipe for cases where one poisoned one slips thru and you get recalls.

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rfreytag
China has issues with food safety:
[https://www.nytimes.com/topic/destination/food-safety-in-
chi...](https://www.nytimes.com/topic/destination/food-safety-in-china)
[https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-
chaos/2016/04/21/w...](https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-
chaos/2016/04/21/what-chinas-food-safety-challenges-mean-for-consumers-
regulators-and-the-global-economy/)

Do you really want to eat poison-free pufferfish there?

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SmellyGeekBoy
I've eaten plenty of things in China (have you?) and I'm still alive.

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ASalazarMX
"For the good of all of us, except the ones who are dead".

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simlevesque
I bet that China has more people alive than your country.

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SketchySeaBeast
The other half of that particular equation is the dead.

