
Vancouver’s high-tech hurdle: Attracting top-level talent - curiousjorge
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/technology/vancouver-tech-scene/article25885653/
======
mahyarm
Your a new grad from uvic, UBC or SFU. Recruiters from Seattle are contacting
you. You interview at Seattle, and get a job offer. The Seattle recruiters
tell you the visa process is easy with this TN thing. You have no idea what
the job market is like so you go interview in Vancouver.

Your shocked to find out that the pay is literally half in Vancouver. Housing
is also half in Seattle, everything is cheaper in Seattle. You really can't
tell the difference between the two cities otherwise, and home is 3 hours
away. You do the sensible thing and move to Seattle.

2 years later, you work for microsoft or some company down the bay area and
start getting your green card. Later on you see that the average income in
vancouver is comparable the average income of Reno,NV.

Anyone with half a brain who is from the area will move to Seattle.

~~~
x0x0
Weird, it's almost like Seattle/Vancouver is a natural experiment proving
compensation matters. Now if only we could convince all the employers in the
valley whinging about their inability to hire while paying _maybe_ $150k/year
in sf, where the median rent for a 1-bedroom is $3500 and condo buyers now are
paying more than $1k/ft2 [2].

[1]
[http://sf.curbed.com/archives/2015/07/02/sfs_median_asking_r...](http://sf.curbed.com/archives/2015/07/02/sfs_median_asking_rent_for_a_onebedroom_tops_manhattans.php)

[2] [http://www.sfgate.com/realestate/article/S-F-condo-market-
pa...](http://www.sfgate.com/realestate/article/S-F-condo-market-passes-
precrash-peak-5361934.php)

~~~
djmips
Note that there are plenty of people who won't take a job in Seattle because
they don't want to leave Vancouver for reasons of family, loyalty to country,
fear of America. Yes, that last one is actually quite prominent amongst people
I've asked.

~~~
lewisl9029
That last one is actually one of my biggest concerns, and one of the primary
reasons why I haven't given up looking for jobs in Canada yet.

I have a fair number of concerns about Canada, but personal safety usually
isn't one of them.

I can't confidently say the same about the states though. A non-negligible
percentage of the population there just seems actively hostile towards visible
minorities. Being born in China myself, I'd definitely fall into the visible
minorities camp in the US, and with the lax gun laws and whatnot, I'd be
extremely worried for my life if some conflict arose between the US and China
and I was still around.

I realize it's probably not a very rational fear, and I don't have any hard
statistics to back any of it up. But safety of mind does have a tangible value
to me. Whether or not it's worth more than half of my potential salary is
another story though.

~~~
x0x0
If it reassures you in any way, CA is 15% asian and SF is 35% (21.4% of
chinese descent.)

imo, African-Americans and people who are visibly muslim or appear to so be to
morons, such as Sikhs, get the bulk of the discrimination.

Fingers crossed neither our government nor the Chinese government are stupid
enough to get into a shooting war. Both sides seem to bluster a lot but the
ties that bind are massive exports from China to the US. I think the chances
of serious conflict in a peaceful relationship spanning 4 decades continue to
decrease.

------
paulsutter
The challenge facing all these potential "startup hubs" is lack of exits.
Investors invest to make a return. Silicon Valley's environment for exits is
unmatched. Tokyo, Singapore, Vancouver, all the same issue. Weak environment
for exits means weak environment for investment means weak environment for
recruiting, etc.

I spent most of the last few years traveling, lots of time in Asia, and this
is the disappointing truth. China is the notable exception where there are
real exits and (no surprise) lots of investment money, talent, and ideas.

~~~
garyrichardson
I think this is the most important/accurate analysis in this comment thread.

Vancouver had a large AAA game industry for a decade or so. It was very much
driven by exits -- all the small/medium studios got bought by
Microsoft/EA/etc. The fever is over and AAA has all but collapsed in BC (and
possibly the world -- I think there's been a big shift to indie games).

I wonder if the lack of exits is a Canadian vs US culture thing? Is there data
that shows fewer exits per capita? Are we Canadians more likely to settle for
less? There's not that many huge Canadian tech companies, and I can think of a
couple that failed due to hubris (RIM, Nortel).

------
volandovengo
The challenge facing vancouver is that the population can't afford to live
there. While there may be a few tech companies in town, overall, the city
doesn't have an industry.

Canadian visa policies got all kinds of foreigners investing big money into
real estate in the city while not creating any actual jobs in the process.

So there isn't much of an economy supporting the city + thus a pretty small
talent pool for any prospective startups to draw from...

~~~
Tiktaalik
It's worth noting that while Vancouver has absurdly expensive detached housing
(East Van: $1.2 million[1], west side more) the rental prices in Vancouver
(~$1200-1400 for single bedroom in new building) do not reach the absurd
prices seen in SF.

Unlike SF, Vancouver builds plenty of condo apartment buildings, so if you
wanted to buy a single bedroom apartment you could do so for $300k-400k. I'm
not saying that's not expensive considering the average income in Vancouver,
the real estate market is definitely in a bubble, but it's at least within
reach, whereas detached housing prices exist in their own bizarre reality.

[1] [http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-
business/vancouvers...](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-
business/vancouvers-detached-house-prices-keep-soaring-as-supply-
dwindles/article25852584/)

~~~
pcthrowaway
If you're willing to live with roomate(s), you can easily find a place in a
desirable neighbourhood in the $600-800 a month range. While I realize my rent
is uncharacteristically cheap for this city, I pay <$500/month in the
commercial broadway area for my own room in a 2BR duplex unit.

~~~
serge2k
or move to Seattle and get paid enough you don't have to live with roommates
unless you enjoy it.

------
grownseed
Working and living in Vancouver as a foreigner, I'll share my experience.
About two years ago, I decided I wanted to settle in Vancouver and therefore
proceeded to find a job here. I contacted a whole bunch of startups, maybe 5%
got back to me. Half of those would call me, tell me they were interested,
until I reminded them I needed a working visa (which I systematically
mentioned in my emails), following which they would pretty much immediately
drop me. As for the remaining half, I went to interviews, most of which went
really well, only to be told weeks later that they assumed I would be able to
just get the visa on my own. All I needed was for the company to be willing to
sponsor me, which is a relatively easy process on their end.

One particular company had the guts to call me, tell me they really liked me
but wouldn't hire me because of the visa situation, and asked me if instead I
could direct other people like me in their direction. It doesn't get much more
rude than that.

Bottom line, I ended up working for the public health sector, who not only
sponsored my visa but also helped me through the process.

So, dear Vancouver startup scene, if you want to attract talent, start by
getting off your high horses.

------
pookieinc
Aside from the high cost of living in Vancouver, another problem is that
Canadians are extremely inward-focused in their efforts to hire individuals
from both startups to larger companies.

From my own experience this past year: California-born and raised, I was in
the market over the last 6 months, looking for software engineering jobs and
applied to dozens and dozens of jobs in Vancouver, ranging from tiny startups
to large companies. Not only did I receive hardly any callbacks, the ones that
did politely mentioned that they were looking for Canadians first, then
they'll look outside (then never got back to me). When applying to startups /
larger companies in the Bay Area, I was interviewing, writing code challenges,
etc., constantly as well as courted for positions.

On the flip side, for Canadians across their own country, Vancouver does seem
like the "hip" place to be. I have tech friends in Toronto, Montreal, and
smaller cities and the lot of them are considering heading westward, and
understandably so. When I visited Vancouver (Gastown, etc.), it seemed very
exciting and full of the startup life. My own couple friends showed me their
own startups and it felt very "Silicon Valley"-esque.

I should also point out that one of my friends did offer me a position at his
company, but the pay was incredibly low (while rent would remain very high),
which I believe to be a symptom of most places outside of California (or maybe
America, not sure).

~~~
mahyarm
I don't think the hiring demand or sophistication is high enough for them to
consider visas basically, which shows you how immature the software industry
is there. Also very sr. devs in vancouver make less than new grads in the bay
area.

------
elchief
I interviewed with PoF and BuildDirect for a data science job. PoF did a
3-against-1 behavioral interview with no whiteboard.

The BD interview was supposed to be a friendly tech phone chat but actually
was a grilling by an HR lady that knew nothing about tech.

What I'm trying to say is these companies don't know what the fuck they're
doing.

------
ryandrake
> But talk to any hot tech entrepreneur in the Lower Mainland and you will
> hear the same story: While the city is awash in startups, “there is an
> absolute shortage of experienced and talented senior executive-level people”

Ahh, there it is. The mythical "engineer shortage" was bound to pop up, as it
does in every single article about tech labor. If there is really a shortage
of engineers (supply), then wages (price) would increase to the point where
supply met demand. Is this happening?

~~~
dasil003
What you are stating is a truism. The unspoken assumption you are responding
to is that there is a shortage _at the wage they are willing to offer_.
However you are replacing it with an assumption that wages should go up _until
sufficient positions are lost through attrition by being too expensive to
fill_.

I don't think this is a very useful hair to split because it doesn't tell us
much about what dynamics are actually going on. As someone with a lot of
experience on both sides of the tech company hiring equation, and I think
there are two main issues.

First is notorious difficulty of quantifying tech skills. It's worse than a
market for lemons, because even the potential hire themselves is prone to
misestimate their own skillset. Second, tech skills aren't really fungible.
Yes, we often talk about how a skilled engineer can easily pick up a new
language, but it's not just languages, it's also problem domains, and work
environments which vary widely and can greatly impact the utility of a given
person. With job tenures being so short these days, it's difficult to invest a
lot in training someone when you fear they will leave in a year and you'll be
back to square one. I might be willing to raise the salary dramatically for
the perfect candidate (who may not even exist), but I can't compete with
Google and Facebook for the undeveloped talent because my company just doesn't
have the cash flow.

~~~
ryandrake
I don't see how the difficulty of quantifying tech skills has anything to do
with whether supply is matching demand at the offered price. Used cars have
many unknown attributes and qualities, yet there is still a relationship
between supply, demand, and price in the used car market.

I'm in the market for a car. I'm willing to spend $35K. I'd love to buy a
Tesla model S! I figure $35K is fair because you never know what's wrong with
a used car. Yet, I've been looking for years and can't find a Tesla for such a
price. Therefore, there must be a car shortage.

~~~
dasil003
What if you couldn't tell apart a Model S from a Corolla from a Pinto before
you put your money down?

~~~
ryandrake
There's still no car shortage.

~~~
dasil003
So what? As I said _in my opening statement_ , you are doubling down on a
truism. To what end? I don't know, probably some political point you believe
in. It's not interesting though. If the economy unravels because we have 50%
unemployment, while simultaneously software companies claim they can't find
enough qualified candidates, then it is apparent we have a problem. Smugly
shoving an Econ 101 in their face doesn't make it possible for companies to
pay unlimited amounts.

------
sirbetsalot
Vancouver has a real problem, these company founders aside from dwave and
shoes.com are fundamentally weak on the vision side. They often have some
bizarre cultural aesthetic that drives away people who can actually perform in
high tech. I mean the HR person for hootsuite probably cant even add together
integers for gods sake.

This isn't silicon Valley, this is shitty vancouver where "me too" companies
are the norm. D-wave is the only company going for a moonshot here.

------
msie
They mention Vancouver's high real estate prices as a factor but Silicon
Valley, San Francisco and New York have that problem too. Rather, as they have
mentioned, it's the lack of other Unicorns in the area, the scene is still too
small.

Also it just seems futile to me to try to find that one _special_ talented
executive when we've seen so many times where a high-priced executive is hired
only to see them not make a difference and resign early with a huge golden
parachute.

~~~
GFK_of_xmaspast
SV and SF have BART and Caltrain bringing in people from the East and South
Bay, and NY has train lines to the outer boroughs, but I don't think of
Vancouver as having really much of anything beyond traffic jams.

~~~
garyrichardson
Vancouver has the West Coast Express, which is a passenger train that runs
east from Downtown out to the valley. The furthest stop is about 75km away and
the longest journey is about 70 minutes.

We also have light rail called Skytrain that heads south and east from
Downtown, but I suspect the furthest this reaches is about 30km away.

~~~
djmips
The West Coast Express isn't really designed with my hours in mind (or many
devs?). I lived out east for a while and tried to use that train but it
doesn't run after 6 pm and it doesn't go on weekends!

------
px1999
Vancouver's main problem with attracting top-level talent is pay. I live in
Vancouver but don't really work much here anymore (mostly remote now) because
of pay. The article focusses on the high cost of housing, though in practice
renting isn't too bad (particularly if you're happy living in a sardine can or
someone's basement).

I have had serious job offers here at less than 1/3 of my usual rate. I've
been told that what I'm looking for (what I'm already getting for remote work)
is director or C-level. "There's much more to consider than compensation" is a
reasonably common excuse from recruiters, but the fact of the matter is that
if you are trying to hire competent senior engineers for $30/hr, of course
you're going to lose out to places that are paying amounts that are above a
living wage.

Vancouver's okay, for sure, but being the self-proclaimed "lifestyle capital
of the world" only carries weight if you get a good work-life balance, and can
afford to do the things that you want to do.

------
Mikeb85
Pretty much any time the question is "How do you attract top-level talent?",
the answer is "Pay more".

The problem with the tech scene (or even starting any business in Canada) is
that there's a lack of investment dollars (many rich Canadians would rather
park their money in foreign stocks), and real estate prices are absurd
relative to wages (since real estate is seen as the 'safest' place to park
your dollars).

Corporate business culture in Canada isn't great either - it's overly
conservative and very slow to change and adopt new ideas. Apart from our
banks, we have no corporations that are even remotely competitive on the world
stage (maybe Bombardier).

I love Canada, but when I'm done my degree, I'll probably be moving abroad,
like most of my educated relatives have already done...

~~~
white-flame
The interesting thing about this article vs others is that it's not talking
about lacking qualified technical people, but "senior executive-level people".

This is just my anecdotal sampling, but I wouldn't assume there's a shortage
of tech _workers_ in the area.

And remember, much of the "tech" startup scene is all about pushing automated
marketing ideas based on commodity software out the door, not pushing the
boundaries of tech itself. This really doesn't require top-tier tech worker
talent, just reasonable competence and follow-through.

~~~
Mikeb85
No there isn't a shortage of tech workers per se, just a shortage of tech
workers that want to work for them.

Just like when people complain about a lack of STEM workers, what they mean is
a lack of STEM workers willing to work for their shitty wages...

In either case, as the offered wages go up, workers magically come out of the
woodwork.

------
bretthopper
Someone else touched on this below but this article ignores the brain drain
problem.

It's true that Vancouver can attract talent from SF/Seattle easier than
Toronto, for example, but conversely it also means Vancouver/BC natives are
way more likely to jump to SF/Seattle since they are so close.

------
sshrinivasan
Important to note that the article is talking about executives, not the riff-
raff (by that I mean the software devs). Executives typically have families,
kids, schools, mortgages etc, stuff that engineers like myself do not have in
general. A 40 something exec vs a 25 year old engineer have very different
requirements and lifestyles. Getting developers to come here (I live in
Vancouver as a Senior Software Developer) is not too difficult, we offer a
salary that's about 80% what you can get in silicon Valley, and you're not in
Silicon Valley. To many (including myself) that's a good thing. I prefer a
theoretically lower pay for a way better lifestyle, since I put value on my
free time as well as my work time. Given the choice between 100k in Vancouver
and 140k in San fucking Jose, to me its a no brainer to live here. And the
people who believe you max out at 80k are flat out wrong, or are working for
the wrong company. We are willing to pay 6 figures for a senior developer, and
starting at 85k for a junior one, and we are a smallish company of about 45
people.

Salaries here are going up with the advent of bigger companies like MS,
Amazon, Hootsuite etc, and it wont be long before 6 figures is just a
baseline. However for executive level people, yeah I can see it being a really
difficult option. Assuming you want a house and have 2 kids, thats like a
minimum of 150k (1M for a house, childcare is a fucking nightmare at $1500 per
kid per month) right there to even hope of having a decent lifestyle.

~~~
curiousjorge
>I prefer a theoretically lower pay for a way better lifestyle

You are _insane_. Are you even being honest with yourself here? Why would you
put up with less pay and higher cost of living? What better lifestyle is there
to speak of that bigger cities south of the border doesn't provide you? The
mountains and ocean? They got that over there too.

The only reason I think you might be saying this is the same thing people
without any other choices say, that it is the best choice. This is textbook
cognitive dissonance.

edit: well looks like you are a recruiter which explains a lot why you might
be pushing this crazy idea. I've ever heard of Zymeworks Inc.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7337161](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7337161).

~~~
sshrinivasan
Hahah you haven't really been to either silicon valley or vancouver have you?

~~~
curiousjorge
have you heard of the edit button? try summarizing your incoherent thoughts in
a neat single comment instead of three so I don't have to reply to them all.

yes I have been to both. yes I still think you are crazy. yes I've never heard
of your company called Zymeworks Inc. which explains why it pays less (as you
already mentioned it is even lower than what other senior positions in
vancouver pays since it's a small company), yes it is significantly lower than
US and by 60% if you factor in exchange rate. Your arrogant attitude doesn't
help at all. You seem convinced that SV engineers can do more with less money.
I don't think even skilled engineers would work for that kind of salary here
in Vancouver but you might not be after quality but high turnover. Would
anyone reading what you wrote and how you are behaving really convince people
here and elsewhere to work for your company where they insist that people need
to take less pay so they can have a better lifestyle? You don't need to do a
study on every startup in existence because it'd be a waste of time especially
since you've already mentioned you are amongst the bottom barrell in terms of
pay compared to SV and local, might be a good company who knows but I've hard
time believing you don't have any issues with bringing someone from SV to
Vancouver that offers 60% less pay and same or more cost of living compared to
SV. You really don't know what you are talking about.

~~~
icebraining
_Your arrogant attitude doesn 't help at all._

"Physician, heal thyself"

------
idibidiart
Money makes the world go round. Where there is money flowing thru the system
there is life and opportunity. And it's not the absolute amount of money or
net worth of the place, though that is correlated, but the rate of flow of
that money within the larger ecosystem. In most countries and places outside
of SF/SV, rich people sit tight on their money, and don't take risks. In this
way, they are conservative, and risk averse, and as a result the ecosystem is
weak. People here in SF/SV are risk takers and that benefits everyone. We're
more optimistic, or dangerously optimistic sometimes but that's why we lead
the world in terms of innovation and opportunity.

------
ced
_there is an absolute shortage of experienced and talented senior executive-
level people_

Not quite what I was expecting from the title.

As a data scientist in Montreal considering a move to Vancouver, how is the
hiring situation for technical work?

~~~
ivarv
There are definitely opportunities but salaries are not anywhere near what you
can expect from the Valley. For some reason tech employers get away with low
wages despite the very high local cost of living.

~~~
msie
Yes, employers would say Vancouver is such a nice place to live so that's part
of the compensation package. So, if you want to mountain bike and snowboard,
all in one day, then this is your place. :-)

------
qjighap
I am wondering if the BC government is going to start cracking down on this
sub-contractor situation. A common situation that I am seeing is a company
will hire a recruiter. Then recruiter will rent out their "contractor" to the
company. The recruiting company will not call their contractor an employee and
include any of the stability or rights associated with that, but they will
give them all the tools and other things they need for their job barring them
from claiming any of the contractor tax breaks.

------
ryanSrich
There is no tech talent shortage. You just have to pay reasonable rates. You
want top talent? Your offer better be at least 6 figures. It's pretty simple.

------
Animats
161 days of rain per year.

~~~
msie
Yes, but in the summer it seems like less than a week of rain over four
months. :-(

------
seminatore
Interesting if very high level article, would have been great to see a deeper
dive into the fast-growing startups in Van too.

------
fhfhchc
Seriously, what is with talking about programmers like they're porn stars?
Programming skill isn't something you're born with and stuck with for the rest
of your life: it comes and goes depending on the project at hand how much
practice you've had. You might be stuck with the same size of penis but your
programming ability is fluid and able to change.

It says something about the labor market when employers refer to potential
workers like they would talk about a show dog.

------
jbarciauskas
Disappointing that they only featured white males in this article. Maybe
that's part of the problem?

~~~
Canada
Care to name anyone else who you feel should have been interviewed for this
article?

~~~
forwardslash
Roham Gharegozlou of Axiom Zen, perhaps.

