
Users Sue Juul for Addicting Them to Nicotine - JumpCrisscross
https://www.wired.com/story/users-sue-juul-for-addicting-them-to-nicotine
======
nbabitskiy
> The most recent complaint ... came from the mother of a 15-year-old, [who]
> became “heavily addicted to nicotine,” the suit claims, making him “anxious,
> highly irritable and prone to angry outbursts,” and perform poorly in
> school.

> Juul use was pervasive at the school, including on the school bus, in
> bathrooms, outside school, and even in class

> In order to deter his use, the complaint says the teenager’s parents removed
> the door from his bedroom, locked parts of their house, instructed school
> officials not to let him use the bathroom unaccompanied, and subjected D.P.
> to regular urine tests.

> Yet despite all these measures, D.P. is unable to stop Juuling.

I can't help reading into this completely different story. It reminds me of
dialogues in R.D.Laing book when he questions the patient and his relatives,
and you can't tell who's "ill".

But even if it's accurate account on mother's part, why not to sue the school
where they vape on a schoolbus?

edit: missed words

~~~
jbob2000
Vapes aren't cheap. Somebody gave this kid $100 to buy his device and someone
regularly gives him $10+ to refill it. And somebody is failing to check his
age when he makes the purchase.

The only problem the school has is that they don't have a vape awareness
program. That's all you can expect them to do with the money + labour they
have. The police should get involved and charge the companies who sold the
devices and juice.

~~~
sawjet
They can be much cheaper than that. Most options at vape shops are less than
$50 and the liquid can be mixed at home for pennies on the dollar. The juul
device that is mentioned in the headline retails for about $20.

~~~
jcapuder
MSRP $35 for the device kit (comes with the vape and the charger) $50 for the
starter kit (device kit + variety pack of 4 pods). At least as recently as 6
months ago it wasn't uncommon to see starter kits going for $70 in NYC. $15.99
for a pack of 4 pods, often shops will charge ~$20, depending on area.

------
cbhl
There's a cynical part of me that wonders whether this big anti-vaping push is
funded by the cigarette companies, because these products are cannibalizing
their business.

~~~
DanBC
The cigarette companies know that we're going down the path of higher prices,
higher taxes, more restrictions on sales and advertising, and more
restrictions on places where you can legaly smoke.

That doesn't make them scared of the vape business, it makes them want to join
the vape business, and a number of them already are selling ecigarettes and
juice.

~~~
chcknsammich
This exactly, the rules around usage do nothing to curb actual usage and only
to prevent anyone else from making cigarettes. This increases prices and hurts
cigarette consumers.

The only outcome here is that well-meaning therapeutic e-cig / nicotine
quitting businesses will likely be stomped.

------
unethical_ban
There is a journalism campaign against Juul in particular, and I don't know
why. They continue to run stories about how kids are getting addicted to it,
and that somehow Juul offering flavors (like cotton candy) are targeting kids
specifically.

Again, I don't vape, but have occasionally done Hookah. Flavors were the whole
point of it, and I was well above 18 when I made the choice.

Warn against the dangers of vaping, sure, but I don't see what this company in
particular has done. And I don't see how people don't realize the dangers of
vaping nicotine.

~~~
Analemma_
> but I don't see what this company in particular has done.

They've developed a special formulation of vape juice that causes a much more
dramatic spike in blood nicotine levels, which experts confirm increases the
risk of addiction dramatically compared to the gentle plateau of blood
nicotine caused by other vaping products [0].

Maybe this is beneficial on net (Juul confirms outright that the nicotine
spike is the entire point of their formula, but they say it's intentional to
help people quit smoking) but don't try to muddy the issue by claiming they're
being singled out for no reason.

[0]: [https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/3/17529442/juul-vapes-
nicoti...](https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/3/17529442/juul-vapes-nicotine-
electronic-cigarettes-addiction-funding)

~~~
unethical_ban
If any of the multiple NPR pieces I've heard mentioned that, my comment would
have been more moderate. I have heard nothing about altered Nicotine
composition, only that "vaping liquids can have a pack of cigarettes' worth"
of Nicotine, and separately, that Juul has flavors, as if that's what draws
teens into it.

------
dangerboysteve
Well they do have a patent for a better delivery of nicotine

[https://patents.google.com/patent/CA2909967A1/en](https://patents.google.com/patent/CA2909967A1/en)

a previous Wired article on the patent

[https://www.wired.com/2015/04/pax-juul-
ecig/](https://www.wired.com/2015/04/pax-juul-ecig/)

~~~
013a
To be fair: The patent (around Nic Salts) is specifically useful for the
delivery of nic in low output devices. Imagine it like this: You've got 12
mg/ml in a high output device which can vaporize 90% of the nicotine, versus
50 mg/ml in a low output device (like a Juul) that can only vaporize 30%.

Essentially, the patent is mostly useful in shrinking the size of the device,
not necessarily delivering more nicotine. And, truly; if you put Juul-
equivalent liquid (50 mg/ml) in a traditional sub-ohm device, even high
tolerance users would probably black out or throw up.

That being said, anyone who has done a variety of vape devices would concur
that Juuls hit harder than anything else out there. And despite their
marketing that they're trying to help smokers quit, they still don't offer any
refills lower than 50mg/ml, which is an obscene amount of nicotine even for a
low output device. Less talk and more solutions from Juul; let's start with
35mg/ml and 20mg/ml refill packs.

------
013a
I don't think you can blame Juul for your own mistakes and behavior.

But Juuls are seriously bad, and this is coming from an ecig/vape user. I
cannot emphasize enough that people need to stay away from Juul. The sheer
nicotine they pack in their pods is habitually addictive, they're ridiculously
expensive, their quality control leads to constantly leaky pods... any other
solution is better as far as I've experienced.

Even the other "gas station ecig" products (Vuse, Blu, etc) aren't nearly as
bad. But if you're trying to quit, get a normal sub-ohm device and create a
plan. The beauty of vape as a quitting mechanism for cigarettes is that you
have complete control over the nicotine content. Buy a bottle of 6/9mg/ml
juice + a bottle of 0mg/ml juice of the same flavor, and create a dilution
plan. Week 1, full strength, week 2, 90% 9mg 10% 0mg, etc etc.

Once the nic addiction is gone, all that's left is the ritual, which is a
bitch to get rid of, but you can do it. Stick on 0mg, ween it off, and replace
it with new healthier habits.

~~~
bencollier49
You could do the same with heroin or methadone. That would work, right?

~~~
oxide
Yes. The problem is that as you taper off the opiates you basically prolong
the suffering by going through mild withdrawal with each step down.

The hard part is going to zero opiates, and tapering is infinitely preferable
to jumping off a large dose, but it does not make it any less taxing on your
will.

------
str33t_punk
So I used to smoke and then started juuling, and then eventually quit so I
think I have a good perspective here.

The stories about users upping the amount of nicotine they consume is very
true. I was a casual smoker (only a few cigs a day), and when I switched to
juuling I quickly became a pod a day vaper, and was very addicted to
niccotine. They really need to release differing concentrations -- while the
50mg is great for pack a day smokers, they need to release lower amounts for
all the other types of smokers wishing to quit out there. The current formula
has more nicotine per puff than when smoking a cigarette. I think they should
get that on par, as many users with oral fixations just like to take many
puffs, but may not want the nic.

However, when it came time to quit, it actually wasn't that bad. The biggest
hurdle was the mental addiction to the act of juuling, but I didn't feel any
withdrawals, and I didn't get quitting sickness (which I have gotten in the
past when quitting directly from smoking)

------
bcheung
Nicotine has a similar addiction profile as caffeine. It's all the other stuff
mixed with cigarettes that makes it much more addictive. People who consume
only nicotine (drops, patches, gum) and then try to stop using it have a
relatively easy time compared to those who smoke.

Also, dosage and frequency affects addiction. If you are constantly doing it,
you are going to be addicted. I occasionally (a few times a month) use vape
drops with nicotine on the skin or sublingual as a nootropic. I haven't notice
any addiction or cravings whatsoever.

Having had to deal with the disgust of roommates smoking, I was so happy when
they switched to using a Juul. It didn't bother me at all after that. I did
notice that they smoked even more though.

This case seems bogus. They are using the product illegally since they are
underage. Don't see how you can sue someone when what you are doing is
illegal. Also, it is abundantly clear that the product is addictive.

------
marpstar
Do these people have a case? Even if JUUL advertises themselves as a "quit
smoking" tool, they did quit "smoking", no? Vaping is not smoking.

JUUL is like any other nicotine alternative (e.g. gum) -- has Nicorette been
sued after people switched from cigarettes to their product and retaining
their addiction to nicotine?

~~~
cududa
Just went to juul.com - it clearly states in a pop-up it's an alternative not
to "quit": JUUL Labs’ mission is to eliminate cigarettes. JUUL is intended for
adult smokers who want to switch from combustible cigarettes.

Further, it's peppered all around their site: Warning: This product contains
nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

I don't vape, but I feel like this case is bull.

~~~
detaro
Do you feel like this advertising sends the same message:
[http://www.ggeeoorrggiiaa.com/new-
page-37/](http://www.ggeeoorrggiiaa.com/new-page-37/) ?

~~~
lovehashbrowns
Yes, it's just a modern, hip advertisement. I don't follow the rules around
ads and smoking but even that ad makes it clear that it's still smoking. The
terminology was "Smoking evolved" and "x # of Puffs."

------
pkaye
Isn't this what some people want? All addictive drugs to be legalized so
people can make their own decisions to take or not?

~~~
smt88
This lawsuit has nothing to do with legalization of drugs. It's about a
company profiting from users' addictions, and those users are suing the
company.

In this case, Juul engineered a product that causes a nicotine spike that
increases the chance of addiction.

This isn't unlike any other lawsuit where consumers sue a company for
engineering a dangerous product without proper warnings.

~~~
pkaye
Of course nicotine is legal and addictive. Did people not know that? All the
illegal drugs are already being engineered to make them more addictive. IF
they are made legal, will their manufacturers also be sued?

~~~
smt88
I don't have the energy to get into the history of this type of lawsuit, but
in US common law (and under some statutes, too), companies may be sued when
the user of a product has a reasonable expectation that a product will perform
one way, and then it performs another.

The most famous (and universally misunderstood[1]) case is the woman who got
3rd-degree, flesh-falling-off burns from McDonald's coffee and sued them
successfully.

It was reasonable for the woman to expect hot coffee, as one would find in
one's home. McDonald's served her much hotter coffee without warning her
beforehand, which led to her underestimating how dangerous handling that
coffee could be.

All McDonald's had to do was tell her it was very hot.

Juul is in a worse position because engineering addiction is much more
malicious than engineering extra-hot coffee that saves the company money.

1\.
[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pCkL9UlmCOE](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pCkL9UlmCOE)

------
duxup
>The high nicotine content is well-known; the company says Juul was designed
to help adult cigarette smokers switch to e-cigarettes.

I mean if you take something that delivers nicotine... that's kinda what
happens.

What exactly is the case for the users here? Did they think it had less
nicotine but it did not?

------
Sohcahtoa82
There's a certain sense of irony that below the article, I'm seeing a "Related
Video" that is effectively just an ad for Juul.

------
s73v3r_
Did these users not know that Juul was nicotine? Do vapes like that not
require the same big warnings on them that cigarettes and other tobacco
products require?

~~~
smt88
A lot of big warnings on tobacco products are about health risks caused by
substances other than nicotine. The nicotine itself isn't causing cancer and
other diseases, which is why nicotine gum lacks the warnings.

