
Chinese spies stole trade secrets from Dutch chip machine maker ASML: report - deogeo
https://nltimes.nl/2019/04/11/chinese-spies-stole-trade-secrets-dutch-chip-maker-asml-report
======
Confiks
The CEO of ASML commented on this story in Nieuwsuur last Tuesday [1] (the
interview starts at 22m35s). Caption file can be found here [2], which is not
entirely correct in every sentence uttered, but translates pretty well.

Main points raised there:

1) This story is about four employees, who were not closely familiar to the
core technology of ASML.

2) Looking at the circumstances, it seems far more likely that this was an
action by ex-exployees with commercial motives, rather than government-
sponsored spying.

3) ASMLs core technology simply remains in The Netherlands. An anecdote: 15
years ago ASML came with the most advanced lithography scanner of that time.
It was copied in China to the last screw, but the device simply didn't work,
because they lacked intricate knowledge on its actual operation.

[1]
[https://www.npostart.nl/nieuwsuur/16-04-2019/VPWON_1297076](https://www.npostart.nl/nieuwsuur/16-04-2019/VPWON_1297076)

[2] [https://pastebin.com/Zg55qtYK](https://pastebin.com/Zg55qtYK)

~~~
gxwmg
>2) Looking at the circumstances, it seems far more likely that this was an
action by ex-exployees with commercial motives, rather than government-
sponsored spying.

Which doesn't surprise me, as that's practically ingrained in the Chinese
culture, and is another factor to take into account when hiring Chinese
people.

~~~
thrwaway190420
>and is another factor to take into account when hiring Chinese people.

I understand what you mean, but it's literally illegal to take any factor into
account when hiring Chinese people (literal racism). It's literally a
protected status.

Is there some other way to interview and test whether someone will steal your
code and send it to China, other than the fact that they're Chinese?

If you can come up with an alternative test you give everyone, it's okay.
Using nationality as a shortcut is not OK.

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11thEarlOfMar
ASML is not a chip company. They are a chip _equipment_ company. The machine
they have designed is a wonder of science and engineering. It is also the only
model by any company that is capable of printing the chip layers at state of
the art nanoscale. Every high value chip produced in the world has its
lithography steps in ASML tools.

------
metildaa
The problem with chip IP theft is the theif only has the IP they stole, not
the skill to further develop or extend it (usually). The Qualcomm => Intel IP
Theft that Apple facilitated is a great example, or AMD's licensing of the
first gen Zen architecture to a Chinese owned company.

Intel wasn't able to get their chipset working well despite a treasure trove
of Qualcomm code and documents, even with the ability to question Qualcomm
engineers via Apple.

Meanwhile, Hygon (the AMD/China joint venture) has produced the Dhyana,
virtually identical to AMD's EPYC chips of a year prior.

The limiting factor for Hygon fulfiling its goals (home grown, performant
cores) faces many challenges, as AMD is moving to 7nm at TSMC, while the
bleeding edge at Chinese fabs (and nearly all other fabs) is 14nm. Even Intel
hasn't been able to jump above 14nm and make a sizeable number of chips.

Even if Hygon were to steal AMD's newer design, they have no native fabs to
manufacture it, and they likely won't for another few years. Permanent
industry laggard puts you in the same position as VIA, never making good
profit or breaking ahead of competitors.

~~~
ajross
This isn't logic design. ASML makes photolithography equipment used in
semiconductor manufacture.

The head line is confusing, but it reads "Dutch chip _machine_ maker"

~~~
Teknoman117
dutch chip maker maker

------
jstewartmobile
Every cybersecurity guy I've ever met has at least one or two Chinese
espionage stories--all ending with a bunch of C-level guys pleading to keep it
out of the news, while being utterly unconcerned that company IP and sensitive
customer information have left the building.

It could just be a case of pass-the-message, but the C-level guys often seemed
so unconcerned that you'd have to wonder if they were also in on it. After
all, the Chinese do have money, and everyone likes money.

------
ycombonator
It’s too late for western companies to stop the leakage. The Chinese regime
planted their “spies” everywhere in academia & industry through multi-decade
onslaught. The companies and governments just kept looking the other way and
the chickens are coming home to roost.

~~~
chillacy
If you’re insinuating that every immigrant from China is a “spy” then a
significant chunk of our tech infrastructure is built by these spies in the
first place.

~~~
karterk
Read again, that's not what the OP is insinuating. In any case, this is a
serious issue that deserves a serious discussion without getting angry.

~~~
chillacy
I don’t think you can lay claim what OP is intending to say unless you’re OP.
The best either of us can do is share our interpretation, and others can feel
free to pile on.

I’m happy to discuss how to maintain tech superiority in America as long as it
doesn’t turn into a witch-hunt against immigrants. It’s far easier to fan
fears than to calm them, this should be reflected in how we communicate.

~~~
threatofrain
Speaking argumentatively, I’d assert the audience controls your meaning more
than you do; after all, meaning in communication is a negotiation between more
than one powers. I think of a famous author angrily leaving a guest lecture
when students don’t agree with the interpretation, or like with JK Rowling
adding interpretation behind her characters after the Harry Potter books.

~~~
chillacy
Yea I agree. You’re talking about meaning, which i assume to mean “what each
person derives from your words”. And like I said above, I would define intent
as “what meaning the author wishes for people to imbue”, if you want to get
crisp.

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smartbit
_ASML CEO Peter Wennink strongly denies that the Chinese government is behind
the theft of sensitive business information._ according to
[https://nos.nl/l/2279983](https://nos.nl/l/2279983) (translate
[https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=nl&tl=en&u=https%3...](https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=nl&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fnos.nl%2Fl%2F2279983)
)

~~~
brobdingnagians
If he said otherwise, would the Chinese government sanction him?

~~~
Rapzid
I also fail to see the difference between Chinese corporate interests and
Chinese government interests. Doesn't the government have its hands in all
this stuff?

------
pmorici
History repeats itself...

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Slater](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Slater)

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raziel2701
Is the semiconductor industry particularly vulnerable to China for some
reason? I am obviously in a news bubble but it looks like it's always the
silicon technology companies that have these issues.

~~~
hourislate
It's not just technology. Every industry has suffered. All the steel recipes
have been stolen costing smelters billions in R&D expenses and decades of
time. Chemical Industry has suffered, Auto, etc. The end game is to dominate
everything.

I suppose the best approach is to avoid doing business with them.

Perhaps the current US Administrations position concerning China warrants wide
spread support.

~~~
Nerdfest
Well, I"m almost happy about the steel recipes. I'm getting really tired of
Chinese-made screws and bolts that almost seem to be made of plastic.

~~~
Mediterraneo10
> I'm getting really tired of Chinese-made screws and bolts that almost seem
> to be made of plastic.

Supposedly, in the cheapest Chinese-produced goods, it sometimes happens that
screws are made not entirely from metal, but are just a metal casing around
sand.

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black_13
Hire local poeople and treat them as if you need them.

~~~
torqueTorrent
>> Hire local poeople and treat them as if you need them.

Wow! What a concept!

alas, that'll never work.

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ummonk
I would argue that developing countries have a moral obligation to obtain
whatever intellectual property is necessary to develop their economies.

