

Ask HN: The ideal company for programmers, or giving freedom to your programmers - hackoder

I find myself often torn between two desires:<p>a) Having the freedom to work on something I'm passionate about. And being able to work on it by my schedule (this doesn't mean I'll be working 4 hrs a day, but it does mean that I can choose to work 4 hrs on a day of low creativity). I usually conclude that I'll need to start my own company if I want to achieve this.<p>b) Building a great product. Working on something like a Google Android, which usually requires a team.<p>I think the crux of the conflict is this: If given the freedom to work according to my creative instinct and my schedule, my output in one week would far exceed the 40 hr output that my company gets out of me right now. My company (and many others that I've seen), unfortunately, do not realize this, or can not risk having a "maverick" on the team. In the end, its a loss for the company, and frustrating for me.<p>Programming jobs require creativity. By letting your programmer go for a long ride, grab their favorite drink, go to their favorite hangout etc, they probably will have a much more elegant and solution to a given problem than having to stay chained to their desk for 8 hrs a day and hammering out a solution.<p>A related issue: I'm not sure why I dont see more work from home IT companies. Why are we still stuck in the industrial age, where working during the day hours, being at a certain location, and hammering away for 8 hrs was equivalent to producing a certain amount of output? We have tools that make working from home easy for employees, and gives them freedom to do other things with their lives.<p>Some background (kinda boring):<p>I'm in my mid 20s, have a grad degree from a great school, and have been coding half my life. I work a 9-5 job where I get to work on technologies that I enjoy, but I'm not passionate about the product. I dislike being chained to my desk. I don't see the reason why I should not be able to work in more relaxed settings, and by my schedule (specially since we communicate 90% by email anyway).<p>I don't see myself taking the YC plunge because I am married and have a kid, so taking a risk is kinda hard at this point. I am working on a product of my own, but between work and other stuff, I don't get to put as much time on it as I want.<p>Any suggestions? I'm leaning towards saving up and then taking 3-4 months off my job to work on my own product.<p>- Edit to clean up formatting.
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jeromec
I totally agree with your sentiment here:

 _Why are we still stuck in the industrial age, where working during the day
hours, being at a certain location, and hammering away for 8 hrs was
equivalent to producing a certain amount of output?_

If you haven't seen the Ted talk below, it's a must watch:

<http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pink_on_motivation.html>

~~~
hackoder
What a great talk..

 _Now, to forward to boss or not to forward_....

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makecheck
I feel the same way.

It's funny you mentioned working-from-home companies, because that's exactly
how I deal with this problem. :) And it's something everyone should ask about
at an interview; these days, a company had better cough up a VPN to hire me.

It's simple: I _know_ that I'll think of something at midnight on a Wednesday,
and want to log in to flush it out (or sometimes, when I wake up on Sunday).
So I work at home at least half the time; and if I'm feeling even slightly
lacking in energy, I don't even bother logging in. I know that eventually the
drive will return (probably later that afternoon or evening). I have a cell
phone, I check E-mail and office voice mail now and then. And I've been
finishing at least as much every week as I did years ago when I was in the
office all day long, except I'm a lot happier.

~~~
hackoder
I do have VPN access, its just for after hours work though :-\

Does your company have a policy to let people work from home as long as they
are productive, or did you have some convincing to do?

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makecheck
The VPN has always been available, but I have only used it extensively in
recent years. It probably helps that teams are now spread further around the
world, because it has forced people to restructure their work to deal with
large gaps in communication. We'd already been sending messages and waiting
hours for a reply, so people no longer expect to be in constant contact. So I
didn't really have to convince anyone, I just reminded key people that I do
work at home a lot, and to call me by cell when necessary.

Though, I've seen certain managers have a real problem with people working at
home, and they even managed to fire people based apparently on that.
Fortunately, those managers are no longer here, because that same intolerance
made them ineffective managers.

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mkramlich
I'm doing freelance contracting and trying to build a development/consulting
shop partly for the same reasons you gave: I like the freedom and I think it's
more efficient and modern, and frankly more adult & unpatronizing. Lets me
work when, where, how I want, and unlocks enough extra free time & energy that
I can spend more of it on other things like hobbies, friends, family or other
enterprises or personal investments. A net-win overall. Not perfect, has
downsides. You have to spend more time selling yourself, and there's more
uncertainty about your future paycheck stream. And can be more isolating. And
this giant spider hunts you wherever...oh wait. Nevermind that last thing.

But seriously, back to your post, if you do take time off to work on your own
product, I suggest you don't burn any bridges employment-wise, and maybe set
it up as an unpaid sabbatical with your existing employer, with an agreed upon
return date. That way, you have the option of returning to them and that
steady paycheck if your experiment doesn't get traction. This is more
important because you have wife and kid. Also, use tools/tech that are good
for rapid development and experimentation (Python, Ruby, etc.), make a Minimum
Viable Product, launch/feedback/tweak/repeat, and don't underestimate the
importance of marketing & advertising.

Another option for striking out on your own is to ease into it gradually by
first becoming a contractor/consultant. The work you do is similar to
salary/staff in that you're writing software for other folks, fixing bugs,
etc. except you have more freedom/time/control to work on other stuff, like a
product/service startup. And you can blur the line by developing a
product/service whose design was informed by, driven by common demands from,
or was a by-product of, your contracting work. That was the 37Signals route I
think, and lots of similar stories out there.

~~~
hackoder
Thank you. That is exactly what I'm thinking of doing. Take unpaid time off.
Launch my product early (2 months into the leave, hopefully), interact
directly with consumers, implement, improve, and hopefully have something that
I can work full time on at the end of 4 months.

Re: your point about isolation, this is why I like the WFH approach. You give
people freedom, but you still work as a team. It seems more win-win to me
overall, than striking out on my own.

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ricardo
"I don't see myself taking the YC plunge because I am married and have a kid,
so taking a risk is kinda hard at this point." ... "I'm leaning towards saving
up and then taking 3-4 months off my job to work on my own product."

Couldn't you do both? Seems like you could save up and go for YC while working
on your product. Either way you'll have a similar amount of risk. One could
even argue that with YC's network you'll have less risk since you'll be around
like minded people and more opportunities will open up for you if your
original idea fails.

Whatever you decide, go for it!

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revorad
This resonates with my recent experience. I got bored of the 9 to 5. My job
was alright, sometimes fun even. But last Wednesday I woke up and just
couldn't do it. So I quit and started working on my own project.

When it's repeated a thousand times, it starts sounding like a cliche, but it
is true - life is short. Do something which fulfills you.

 _So no, there's nothing particularly grand about making money. That's not
what makes startups worth the trouble. What's important about startups is the
speed. By compressing the dull but necessary task of making a living into the
smallest possible time, you show respect for life, and there is something
grand about that._

\- <http://paulgraham.com/startuplessons.html>

~~~
hackoder
Good on you. I hope it works out for you. Please do post updates here (to
motivate yourself, and others :)) of your experience.

~~~
revorad
Thanks hackoder. I'm looking forward to writing a nice long 'Thanks HN' post.
But not before I have something to show. I am scared announcing my plans might
make me less likely to accomplish them.

~~~
hackoder
I've found that taking steps to get people involved with my plans makes me
_more likely_ to achieve them. I'll definitely be sharing initial versions of
my app with the community here.

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old-gregg
Do you want to relocate to NYC and work on exciting product at the already
profitable startup? We offer great salary, meaningful equity and I guarantee
you the product will get you excited. See my profile.

~~~
plinkplonk
"Do you want to relocate to NYC and work on exciting product at the already
profitable startup?"

I think one of the things he's looking for is the ability to work from home.he
mentions it very clearly.

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tjr
If you're looking for a company to work for, you might enjoy:

<http://www.codesourcery.com/>

...depending on your interests.

~~~
hackoder
Thanks. I feel a little under-qualified for what they are developing, but this
strikes home with me:

 _CodeSourcery has no central office. We work when we want in an environment
in which we are comfortable. We can work wherever we want: from a coffeeshop,
a library, or anywhere else on the planet with an internet connection. We see
our friends and families throughout the day; not just early in the morning and
late at night._

Good to see that there are companies which are interested more in what you can
do and less in forcing their way of working on you. Are you working for them?

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gasull
Why can't you build a great product working by your schedule? Working on a
team doesn't mean being with the team at all times. You need both time alone
and time together.

~~~
hackoder
That was exactly my point. I want to be able to work by my own schedule (with
reasonable overlap with the team) and still build a great product. What I feel
is that companies (or atleast mine) aren't structured this way.

~~~
gasull
You're right very few companies are structured that way, but you can start
your own.

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dmytton
What kind of product do you want to work on that you would feel passionate
about?

~~~
hackoder
I've been considering that myself quite a bit, and I find that its a
combination of things:

\- Something where I can interact directly with the client/consumer. I dislike
having to program by specs, when I _know_ that they are written by someone who
doesn't understand end users. Simple, effective touches are usually missing,
and the feedback loop is so long that apps take years to evolve.

\- Something challenging. I want to stay up at night visualizing possible
solutions. That kind of excitement makes the time spent worth every second.
And with the opportunity to think and implement a solution that works _really_
well for the problem.

\- Something that makes a difference. Doesn't have to be something ground-
breaking, but it shouldn't be a CRUD front-end either.

This is harder to quantify than I thought. I guess it depends on the novelty
of the idea, the silken smooth end-user experience (think iPhone- _I own a G1
myself, but man does the iPhone provide a great experience_ ), and the
quality/succinctness/simplicity of the code.

