
A study on the willful regulation of autonomic function during cold exposure - labatbell
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1053811918300673
======
maxxxxx
I have tried the Wim Hof method a few times but I just can't get used to the
cold showers. I can do it for a few days but instead of getting used to it I
dread it more and more.

Has anybody else tried it and got used to the cold?

I should add that I always got easily cold and there is almost no temperature
where I say that it's too hot.

~~~
ThrowMeDown01
> _there is almost no temperature where I say that it 's too hot_

Did you ever ask a doctor about this? Especially an endocrinologist. One
example of many possibilities:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothyroidism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothyroidism)

As for cold showers, I dreaded them but at some point in my life I just
relaxed. I would call it "acceptance", in general, life throws bad stuff your
way and all you can do is "exist", i.e. nothing, really. So if I want to or
have to have a cold shower (e.g. when hot water was out once) I just turn on
the cold water and get in and accept that it's uncomfortable, especially at
the very beginning. Nothing I can do about it - and, more importantly, since I
know it's only uncomfortable but not threatening, nothing I _have to do_. All
I have to do is stand there and do nothing and feel whatever there is to feel.
At that point I'm just an observer of my own body, with no active role to
play. The conscious part does nothing, the forces at play are all controlled
by lower level brain functions.

~~~
maxxxxx
I think I could do cold exposure if I was active. Maybe swimming in cold
water. Or even sitting in a bathtub where I don't get hit by cold water drops.

------
mindgam3
Absolutely fascinating.

I have been practicing cold immersion for several years as part of sauna
hot/cold cycles since I first discovered experimentally that it measurably
improved my symptoms of acute and complex PTSD. Extremely heartened to see
some initial scientific results in line with my anecdata.

“Our results provide compelling evidence for the primacy of the brain (CNS)
rather than the body (peripheral mechanisms) in mediating the Iceman's
responses to cold exposure. They also suggest the compelling possibility that
the WHM might allow practitioners to develop higher level of control over key
components of the autonomous system, with implications for lifestyle
interventions that might ameliorate multiple clinical syndromes.”

~~~
WhitneyLand
Do you you have any thoughts or speculation on whether cold immersion might
offer more potential to mitigate ptsd symptoms than various intensive
meditation practices alone?

(for those that didn’t get to the abstract it describes both being used
together, as part of of a routine that seems to enable atypical nervous system
control but I did not notice specific mention of ptsd)

~~~
mindgam3
In my experience, both cold immersion and meditation practices have helped.
Cold immersion helps more quickly and viscerally. Short of paying someone to
hold a loaded gun to my head or jumping in to an MMA cage match, the cold is
by far the quickest and safest way I have found to trigger my lizard brain
into panic mode. Going to that place and then training myself to breathe
through it is my form of exposure therapy for PTSD.

Re meditation specifically, 1) breath awareness helps me with general
relaxation + increased awareness of triggers, 2) metta meditation helps to
shift towards compassionate mindset to self and others, and 3) advanced
tibetan insight practices (emptiness of self) as taught by Dr. Daniel Brown of
[https://pointingoutway.org/](https://pointingoutway.org/) helps me shift from
my normal sense of ego-centric self to an outside Observer perspective, which
is impervious to triggers. I cannot recommend Daniel Brown's programs enough
for any serious student of meditation. I took a Level 1 retreat at Esalen
about 10 years ago and it proved to me that meditation isn't totally BS.

My strong recommendation based on what I learned there is to not engage in any
deep form of meditative practice without first strengthening the physical
body. This is what yoga was designed to do originally, to prepare the body and
mind so that you could go to advanced meditative states with a strong enough
structure to handle whatever psychic energy was released.

~~~
arethuza
Part of me always thinks it is odd that as someone who is prone to
anxiety/stress my main coping mechanism is to put myself into potentially
tricky situations in mountains where you would expect anyone sensible would be
anxious and stressed but rather the trickier the situation (bad weather,
navigation) the calmer I feel.

~~~
mindgam3
I have wondered the same thing about myself. I came to two realizations, the
first is exactly what you say about gravitating towards flow-inducing states
(chess, esp bullet chess, mountain biking, motorcycling, etc) as a coping
mechanism/reset button for processing difficult emotions. This is a healthy
way of dealing with trauma. The second is that in some more extreme cases of
obviously-in-hindsight dangerous or self-harming behavior, I realized that I
was doing these things “unconsciously” as a way of echoing my original trauma,
ie my psyche was still not strong enough to directly confront or even become
aware of the root injury, so in my infinite wisdom I acted out these behaviors
which were so stupid in hindsight that I was forced to look deeper to
understand what my self was trying to tell me about my self. After processing
some really heavy shit, I feel like I can get my “fix” of flow in safe(r) ways
consistently. “Accident-free for [6] months”, as they say...

------
mtalantikite
I’ve only read a small amount about the Wim Hof Method, but from what I
gathered he basically altered the Tibetan Tummo meditation practice. [1] That
practice requires quite a lot of visualizations and an understanding of
Tibetan Vajrayana cosmology. WHM, at the basic level I’ve read about, are the
pranayama techniques divorced of those elements.

[1]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tummo](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tummo)

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
You can achieve "inner heat" by moderate cold exposure and totally relaxing by
suppressing shivers and clenched muscles. You don't need a metaphysical
framework to do it.

------
sytelus
TLDR; Win Hoff Method (WHM) has been one of the most mysterious things that
has allowed people to climb snowy mountains almost naked in middle of the
winter. The core interesting aspect of it has been that it can be _learned_
(see,
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaMjhwFE1Zw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaMjhwFE1Zw))
and therefore the assumption that this is because of some extreme genetics has
been overruled. The current research paper has following findings:

1\. WHM allows to control pain center of brain at will shutting down the pain
response.

2\. WHM increases response in brain areas that keep sustained focus in face of
adverse conditions.

3\. WHM does not cause increased metabolism to keep body warm.

4\. The mechanism of keeping body warm seems to be forceful respiration that
increases response of fight-or-flee autonomous nervous system increasing
glucose consumption in muscles around the lungs.

~~~
im3w1l
I don't see how point 3&4 add up, is it increasing metabolism or not?

~~~
graeme
#3 more properly put is that the body wasn't metabolizing brown fat to keep
the body warm. It was a hypothesized method of warmth.

Instead, the warmth seems to come from the intercostal muscles.

------
meroes
3 am and I've been forced into a kind WHM because of a bad fever/flu. I've
have to strip naked, open my window, and turn off the heat to be able lie on
my side without overheating.

At first I could not give up my shirt and blanket as it felt too cold. It's
now even colder yet I feel warm laying here. Fever hasn't increased.

------
jtms
I saw Wim Hof speak at a conference and did the short, group breathing
exercise and was blown away by how great it made me feel. Even just the
specific breathing followed by breath holding I could tell something was
legitimately different/better about my physiology after. I never pursued
practice of the "method" to even get to the cold exposure stuff, but maybe its
time to try.

------
xyzal
Perhaps somewhat related anecdata: I have been successfully using autogenic
training ( which basically is training of conscious moderation of the
fight/flight autonomous response ) to soften symptoms of my anxiety disorder.
So I can confirm that such a seemingly automatic bodily response can be
'overridden' with practice.

~~~
graeme
How does the training work?

------
fromthestart
I've not been able to find anything in the past; is anyone here aware of a
comprehensive guide to the WHM? Does one exist in circulation? I know the guy
hosts retreats, but from a handful of YouTube videos he seems to be interested
in sharing this technique, so I imagine there's a reference somewhere...

~~~
rusk
If you check out his website [0] there's a good bit of information on there
... It doesn't seem as though he's interested in providing comprehensive
insight "for free", although I understand from a friend of mine that's into
it, it's largely a case of just doing it. Find ways to condition your body on
a regular basis, and you'll just gradually figure it out. Cold showers, ice-
baths etc.

[0] [https://www.wimhofmethod.com/](https://www.wimhofmethod.com/)

------
vbuwivbiu
I would like to know how much subcutanious fat he has

~~~
andrelaszlo
He looks pretty lean, there's clearly something else beside being well-
insulated going on :)

Check out this video
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaMjhwFE1Zw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaMjhwFE1Zw)

------
t_akosuke
for a gentler, less gung-ho method to achieve similar results that doesn't
rely on hand wavy science (that takes as a unit if measure someone with an
exceptional body to begin with!), try this YouTube channel:
[https://www.youtube.com/user/ReWildUniversity](https://www.youtube.com/user/ReWildUniversity)

you'll have to dig between all the forest navigation videos which might be a
plus for some

