
Glowforge launches consumer-grade laser cutter - mlmilleratmit
http://glowforge.com
======
chromaton
This looks like a decent laser but I thought I'd post a few thoughts about
this package which might give a potential buyer pause.

First, the main unique feature I see is the built in camera which apparently
gives you a preview of cut/engraved finished part on your computer screen with
the material as it's positioned inside the machine. This also (apparently,
it's not clear), allows you to correct for misaligned material inside the
machine. These are nice features, but it's perfectly possible to cut and
engrave without them.

One big problem with operating this inside your home is the fumes. Now, they
do mention that the base unit needs to be vented to the outside. What this
means is that your neighbors (and you, if the wind is right) will have to
smell the exhaust from this machine. It's not a nice smell if you're cutting
acrylic. Though I personally got used to the scent of vaporized acrylic over
time, your neighbors might not be so inclined.

So they also offer a $500 add-on ($1000 regular price) to filter the air so
you can exhaust inside. The add on is smaller than the already small laser
cutter. This is quite a feat and I would really like to know how they got it
to work. You see, the fumes/smoke from a laser cutter can really clog up a
particulate filter pretty quickly. Wood produces wood smoke, and acrylic vapor
is quite sticky when it settles. So you have to have a powerful pump to draw
the fumes through the filter. Then you need a good amount of activated
charcoal to get rid of the smelly stuff.

If you look at the professional model air filters, they're $2000+ and you have
to buy filters and media regularly.

Laser cutters get messy inside, so if you buy one, be prepared to clean it out
regularly to keep the optical and mechanical components clean.

Problems with operation can START A FIRE, so be prepared to watch the machine
100% of the time while it's cutting.

~~~
danshapiro
(founder/CEO here) I vented a 60W chinese laser out my window for a year in
the suburbs, but I've learned never to underestimate what neighbors may
complain complain about. The air filter is definitely a good idea. If you do
the math on the volume, and compare it to the actual volume of the filter of
e.g. a Purex, you'll find it's similar. Almost half of the volume of the Purex
is in the fans or open airspace; we have the advantage of a ton of airflow
from the Glowforge itself, so the filter needs proportionately less. We also
have a sealed (basic) or almost-sealed (pro) case so it's easier to build up
negative pressure and move the exhaust through.

Cleaning stinks, and wrecks alignment - the tube and turning mirrors are
completely sealed, including the tube output, so there's just one flat window
to wipe clean (and it unscrews for easy replacement). The head has a window
and purge air to keep it clean too.

We're mitigating a lot of the risk of fire by avoiding trouble situations in
software (e.g. not cutting a piece of material where the dimensions make it an
effective wick, detecting obstacles on the bed, accelerators to detect
problems quickly) but you're right that you don't want to run it unattended.

~~~
braum
Is it true the machine requires connection to internet or your cloud to cut or
engrave? I was about to order a Pro until I read this in the comments. I
expect to be able to use this machine with my laptop running some program and
"send to laser", no internet connection required.

~~~
danshapiro
Cofounder/CEO here, just finished with Makercon and catching up.

The Glowforge does require a cloud connection to operate. We use cloud vs.
local a host of reasons including the motion planner, alignment, image
recognition, and faster feature development.

But based on the excellent point made here that nobody wants a paperweight if
we fall off the globe, we decided to make a change. We're going to do a GPL
release of the firmware so people can do whatever they want, including porting
offline functionality. You buy it, it's yours, you should get to do what you
want with it.

[http://glowforge.com/gpl-licensed-open-source-firmware-
for-g...](http://glowforge.com/gpl-licensed-open-source-firmware-for-
glowforge/)

Thanks for the great feedback.

~~~
swetland
So, further questions:

1\. When you mention planner, etc, does this imply the cloud service is
involved not just in a prep phase, but actively during the control loop while
the device is cutting? The latter would be worrisome to me.

2\. Will you be able to elaborate at all on the functionality of the firmware
(and/or provide protocol documentation for it) prior to ship? I'm not sure how
comfortable I am pre-ordering without understanding just how much work there
is between the device as delivered and an actual, functional, standalone
cutter.

I see on the blog that modifying the firmware invalidates warranty coverage.
This seems like another argument for protocol docs and/or ability to usefully
have at least one cut path that does not tie you to an online service or nuke
your warranty.

------
cptskippy
It's not just cloud connected, it's cloud dependent. It requires internet
access and their cloud services to function at all. That's kind of
disappointing.

~~~
rsync
It's not just disappointing, it's stupefying. Why would my drill (or my
compressor or my band saw) need to be on the Internet in order to function ?

Also, there's a lot of overlap between people who have the extra
space/building/shop to properly run equipment like this and people that have
spotty rural Internet.

~~~
stbtrax
It probably has to do with how people/VCs don't see selling hardware alone as
a super profitable model on it's own, and want a cloud dependence to sell you
more stuff or to sell your data.

~~~
lairdpop
The things that they show (running a web site with lots of UX, slicing, image
processing, materials data, catalog of customizable designs, etc.) fit pretty
well into a powerful web site/service with a small CPU in the laser cutter.
Adding a powerful CPU, etc, would add to cost and complexity - it is much
easier to run a web site than to support thousands,of users' local installs,
etc. Though i agree that makes the device dependent on their service, that's
becoming a pretty common tradeoff these days.

------
tomkinstinch
I have a 40W hobbyist laser cutter. It's fun, and a great tool for various
projects, like making board games[1,2]. That said, sometimes materials inside
the machine catch fire, and sometimes the beam reflects or dwells on a section
of the metal enclosure. It's interesting that they've chosen to make the
entire (?) enclosure out of plastic, itself a combustible material. I get why
they went with plastic (cheaper to fabricate once you have the molds, lighter
to ship, perhaps better dimensional accuracy than cheap sheet metal), but it
does not seem particularly safe. The also seem to gloss over the need to
ventilate the machine. Plastic fumes are nasty to breathe, glue-bonded wood
(think thin plywood) can release formaldehyde fumes, leather may be dyed with
heavy metals. What the laser doesn't cause to combust cleanly, it vaporizes.
You don't want those emissions in your house of office, and you want them
vented away from the optical components as quickly as possible so there is no
deposition onto mirror or lens surfaces.

Another benefit of metal enclosures is shielding the power supplies of these
things. High-voltage laser power supplies are noisy, and when you PWM them,
they can cause quite a bit of interference. Metal enclosures at least help to
attenuate RF emissions.

The "macro camera" is a clever addition for closed-loop optical control (if it
is being used for that). Reminds me of attaching an optical mouse sensor the
the lens sled.

1\. [https://igcdn-photos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-
xfp1/t51.28...](https://igcdn-photos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-
xfp1/t51.2885-15/e15/10549813_673074649438401_1078246007_n.jpg)

2\. Make your own Carcassonne tiles!
[http://dev.tia.io/carcassonne_shading/](http://dev.tia.io/carcassonne_shading/)

~~~
borgel
What unit do you have? I've been thinking about getting one.

~~~
tomkinstinch
I have an older one from Full Spectrum[1], from when they were adding their
own control PCBs to generic units imported from China. The newer ones they
have look nicer. There are a few other options on the market now, so it's
probably worth shopping around. Larger cutting areas are nice, if for no other
reason than that they limit the number of cuts you have to make on raw
materials to get them to fit into the machine.

I made my own recirculating laser tube cooler using desktop PC water cooling
components[2].

Beyond board games, they're useful for making tools for other projects. Need a
drill guide with precise spacing? No problem, cut one out on the laser cutter.
Need to prototype a coarse-pitch circuit board but don't want to wait for
OSHPark or pay for a quick-turn fab? Ablate black paint off a Cu-clad board
and chemical etch. Want to de-cap IC packages? You can, with some care.
Interested in prototyping microfluidic structures? Sandwich some cut sheets of
double-sided tape between acrylic sheet. Need to make a quick enclosure for a
project? Design a box [3,4]. Cut the sides out of acrylic, and bond with
dichloromethane (with ventilation!). It's great for making fixture components
for things like robotics since you an easily include holes for machine screws.

They're also fun for cutting leather, cloth, etching aluminum laptops, making
gifts, etc.

If you don't have access to nice commercial CAD software, DraftSight is a free
AutoCAD clone that works fine for 2D drawings[5]. Otherwise, Inkscape works
well for 2D, and for 3D, Rhino[6] has an affordable educational license that
permits commercial use.

1\. [https://fslaser.com/Products/Lasers](https://fslaser.com/Products/Lasers)

2\. [https://github.com/tomkinsc/Laser-
Cooler](https://github.com/tomkinsc/Laser-Cooler)

3\. [http://boxmaker.connectionlab.org/](http://boxmaker.connectionlab.org/)

4\. [http://www.makercase.com/](http://www.makercase.com/)

5\. [http://www.3ds.com/products-services/draftsight-cad-
software...](http://www.3ds.com/products-services/draftsight-cad-
software/free-download/)

6\. [https://www.rhino3d.com/](https://www.rhino3d.com/)

~~~
elihu
I have their 5th-generation machine (now just called their "H-series" machine)
with the 45 watt upgrade, and am pretty happy with it so far. Their software
has a few quirks, but nothing I can't work around.

------
3dfan
In the video, at about 13:40 they reveal that to print you have to use the web
interface which runs "On Googles Cloud".

I would not like the interface to my own printer to be "In the Google cloud".
Does that mean when the company goes out of business, the printer is bricked?

And right after, they admit that they plan adding paid services. Oh oh. How
will thesed paid services be announced? I can imagine how. Whenever I want to
print, this thing will bug me to pay for some fancy addon.

And privacy? Goes right out of the window. Everything I print would go through
all kinds of hands. The manufacturer of this printer, Google, my carrier and
who knows who.

And what about security? This is probably a full blown computer they want me
to give access to my lan and internet connection. Who guarantees it gets
security updates?

~~~
mlmilleratmit
Good question, I _think_ the ideas is the exact opposite -- you're not
depending on Glowforge UI to be backed by a startups servers, the software
runs on google cloud instead. Pros and cons, obviously, but I think the main
pro is (like a Tesla) the machine's performance and usability can be improved
without you installing any new software. As far as dependencies go, google's
probably the best possible choice.

~~~
Implicated
> you're not depending on Glowforge UI to be backed by a startups servers, the
> software runs on google cloud instead.

What? Who is going to pay that bill? For example, Glowforge goes out of
business... Google isn't going to continue to host and maintain that software
out of the kindness of their hearts.

> but I think the main pro is (like a Tesla) the machine's performance and
> usability can be improved without you installing any new software.

What does the UI being web-based, and "in the cloud" have to do with it's
firmware?

For example, if the UI wasn't hosted on some google server, instead existed
within the device accessible via WiFi (like a router) nothing you've said here
would be any different... other than the user being able to decide themselves
if they _want_ their device updated.

~~~
beefman
A bit off-topic, but you gave me an idea: What if Google _did_ guarantee to
host stuff forever when startups go out of business? It would eliminate
customers' reservations in cases like this, and hence eliminate business
reservations about going all-in on cloud services. The increased business
could potentially more than cover Google's cost.

The trick would be the care and feeding of the software. But as the industry
moves to more immutable infrastructure -- especially stuff like AWS lambda and
JAWS -- this will become less of an issue.

~~~
hueving
>It would eliminate customers' reservations in cases like this

No it wouldn't. I still don't want to depend on a remote service to use an
alliance this expensive. Internet connections can be unreliable.

------
mmastrac
Dan's story about making a wallet with the laser is amusing:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=292&v=0R3mMUsHFvU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=292&v=0R3mMUsHFvU)

"No, I have a laser!"

~~~
vvanders
I feel like that's almost the answer to anything.

~~~
knieveltech
Only true if you have a laser and don't fully understand what's possible with
a hammer.

------
bborud
I was very interested until I saw this blog post:

[http://glowforge.com/our-new-advisor-jennifer-
lawton/](http://glowforge.com/our-new-advisor-jennifer-lawton/)

If you have been following the whole Makerbot Industries (and then Stratasys)
debacle, seeing the name of Jennifer Lawton might give you pause.

I think I'm going to sit this one out.

~~~
ceejayoz
> If you have been following the whole Makerbot Industries (and then
> Stratasys) debacle, seeing the name of Jennifer Lawton might give you pause.

For those of us who haven't been, can you give a TL;DR version of why this is
significant?

~~~
bborud
The TL;DR is that she was part of creating a toxic environment within the
company, shipped a product they knew was defective (Makerbot fifth
generation), misled the shareholders (of Stratasys) and ultimately cost
Stratasys hundreds of millions.

For the slightly longer version the class action lawsuit conatins a lot more
detail:
[http://www.adafruit.com/pdfs/makerbot/classaction.pdf](http://www.adafruit.com/pdfs/makerbot/classaction.pdf)

You can also check out Glassdoor reviews:
[http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Makerbot-
Reviews-E480203.ht...](http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Makerbot-
Reviews-E480203.htm)

I can confirm that the Makerbot 5gen is a defective product. We have one at
the office gathering dust after trying to make it work for a few months. It is
beyond hope.

~~~
ansible
_... shipped a product they knew was defective (Makerbot fifth generation)
..._

Yikes. Clogged extruders and many software problems:

[http://nicklievendag.com/makerbot-replicator-5th-
generation-...](http://nicklievendag.com/makerbot-replicator-5th-generation-
review/)

------
dlowe-net
Is there some strategy for customers once the cloud servers shut down? The
company doesn't have to go out of business - perhaps five years have passed
and you've moved on to more awesome models. While your business might feel
that customers should upgrade to the newest, it's not great that they would be
forced to.

For instance, when Steam was first released Valve promised that should the
authentication servers go down, they would ensure that the games would stay
functional without them. This was an important point that contributed to its
success.

~~~
cwkoss
Open sourcing local backup server software would be a cool move.

------
SEJeff
So in a followup, Glowforge offered to release the firmware of this 3d printer
as GPL. That is a ballsy and incredibly great move. It also helps negate the
issues of their cloud service going away, I have an expensive paperweight
issue.

See: [http://glowforge.com/gpl-licensed-open-source-firmware-
for-g...](http://glowforge.com/gpl-licensed-open-source-firmware-for-
glowforge/)

~~~
Pxtl
The thing is that their firmware is ultra-lightweight. One of the things
they're proud of is that the firmware is _extremely_ thin and basically shunts
control signals directly from the cloud service. The cloud service does
_everything_.

The expensive paperweight issue still stands.

~~~
lairdpop
I am not sure that this would be the case. If all the firmware has to do is
process G code, that's oh well understood problem, and runs on Arduino's, and
whatever is grilling this printer has to be at least as powerful as we oh well
understood problem, and runs on Arduino's, and whatever is grilling this
printer has to be at least as powerful as Arduino, and he clearly has four
more storage since it can buffer print streams coming across the Internet
which is a lot harder then coming in local connection. The only limitation I
see is that the device does not have a USB port, which means that even if
you're printing off-line you're going through Wi-Fi. If the company went
under, I'm wondering if the answer wouldn't be to reverse engineer enough of
the server-side to print, and run a copy of that locally, without having to
change the printer's firmware.

------
Someone1234
I am surprised it can cut paper without causing ignition.

I wonder how many of the projects shown were created using the "basic" ($2K)
version and how many were produced using the pro ($4K) version?

I will say their early bird prices make these compelling for small
business/etsy setups. However once they go to full price, I don't know if that
will remain as true. It would take a LOT of wallets to break even at a $4K
buy-in for the "basic" version.

PS - We live in an exciting world. Between 3D printers and these, you really
can do more at home than ever before. And this type of technology is bringing
tooling prices down massively even if you have it fabricated.

PPS - Looking at the material costs on their page, and looking at how much
these items sell for on etsy right now ($39 inc. free postage), you'd have to
sell over one hundred hardback skins for a Macbook Pro just to break even (and
that's ignoring many of the hidden costs of running a business, like
accountant, licensing, your salary, etc).

~~~
outworlder
> I am surprised it can cut paper without causing ignition.

As a kid, I had a lot of difficulty trying to ignite paper with lenses under
the sun (white notebook paper). I then gave up and used the lenses for cutting
instead. So I'm not that surprised.

To this day I wonder what would be the correct set of conditions that would
make it easier to combust. I remember trying black paint - that only made the
cutting part easier.

~~~
vxNsr
I had really no problem using a magnifying glass to burn printer paper as a
kid, as long as it was the summer, trying to do that in the winter was for
some reason impossible.

------
blacksmith_tb
It's a very polished product, and the "pen" mode is a cool idea. To me,
they're targeting an odd demographic, Makers who can afford expensive toys /
tools, but also want a very friendly, hands-off interface. I would have
expected the Maker camp to be ordering ~ $700 40-50W laser cutters from
Shenzhen. I suppose the Glowforge would be pretty great in a school setting,
though.

~~~
codazoda
I'm a maker. Tell me more about this $700 Shenzhen laser cutter? I googled it
and I'm coming up with a few things, but only very small $400 units and very
big expensive units.

~~~
samstave
You can also get a membership to techshop.ws where they have cutters among
MANY other items.

[https://www.noisebridge.net/](https://www.noisebridge.net/) hacker space on
Mission in SF also had a fairly large 40W cutter... It was not setup for a
while - but I think its working now... and you can use that one pretty much
free (donate to the space though is a good idea)

~~~
jasonlaramburu
Laser cutters are by far the most popular tools at tech shop. Reservations
typically fill up 2-3 weeks in advance. Having a hobby machine at home for
smaller or recurring jobs could save a lot of time.

------
jps8
@danshapiro - Thanks for giving a fantastic resolution to the issue of the
cloud software. I think that was a big hang up for many of us.

Can you expand on the benefits of the Pro model? The usefulness of the
included air filter and pass through slots have been explained on your site,
but the laser and cooling upgrade aren't really ever discussed.

5W more power doesn't seem like very much of an upgrade (12.5% more power for
60% more cost). What does the Pro model's upgraded laser and cooling specs
mean in terms of "usefulness": cuttable material thickness, cutting times,
duty cycle, etc?

Also, what's the expected life span of the charcoal filters, HEPA filters,
laser tube, and any other consumables? Are replacements for these available
only through Glowforge, or are they industry standard / Over The Counter
parts?

------
hamoid
Laser cutters generate smoke (with possibly toxic particles). They have air
extraction attached to them for that reason. No air extraction on this model?

~~~
tomwphillips
I came to say the same thing.

My lab uses an industrial laser cutter a lot, and perspex fumes stink. We have
a large extraction unit to capture the fumes.

Filters only capture a limited range of compounds too. Important to always
check whether the filter can handle the material before cutting.

------
uptown
One of their sample images appears to be of the "Below the Boat" series.

[http://www.belowtheboat.com/](http://www.belowtheboat.com/)

I've given those maps as gifts, and they're very nice quality. Is there any
relationship between your companies? Are they using your laser cutter?

~~~
danshapiro
(ceo/cofounder here) There are lots of folks doing bathymetric maps with
lasers; I don't know who was first to it. We generated ours from scratch from
NOAA data, but owe them (or whoever did it first) a debt of inspiration.

------
knicholes
It calls itself a 3D laser printer. It's a 2D laser cutter.

~~~
abtinf
It doesn't just cut. It has variable focus of 13mm, allowing it to carve out
any desired shape within that range.

~~~
Pxtl
Fine, cutter/engraver.

------
littletinman
I want... NO.... I NEED this! The price seems surprisingly reasonable for the
amount of household items you could create that you "Forgot to get from the
store."

~~~
danshapiro
(cofounder here)

Thank you! I was lucky enough to have an industrial laser in my garage for a
few years and was amazed at what it could do, and how miserably hard it was to
do it. Hopefully we'll let lots of folks experience the first and none the
second.

~~~
littletinman
I hope so! As a kid, this would have realized so many dreams! Going on my list
of tools to get!

------
tommoor
After watching that video I feel like they should do a promo with Etsy. Also
can't help but think about Cory Doctorow's "Makers", sci-fi being slowly
ushered into our lives :)

------
Cieplak
Someone please connect this with a Microsoft Kinect and build a robot turret
on treads for eliminating pests such as mosquitos.

~~~
cwkoss
You'd like this video:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU2kbghz85I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU2kbghz85I)

------
beefsack
I'd be interested to hear the benefits over the successful Kickstarter[1]
LazerBlade[2], which looks much simpler but is less than half the price at
retail.

[1]
[https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1537608281/lazerblade-t...](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1537608281/lazerblade-
the-affordable-laser-cutter-engraver)

[2] [https://darklylabs.com/emblaser-
overview/](https://darklylabs.com/emblaser-overview/)

------
paulmd
This is a pretty neat product. I especially like the continuous-feed idea.

I'd really like to do stuff that involves stainless. What would be the
cheapest option capable of doing some reasonable sheet stainess? My wallet is
cringing at the mere concept, but maybe I could talk a local hackerspace into
doing it or something.

I've been meaning to build a CNC mini-mill for a while. I think that seems
like a more practical option for stuff that doesn't require intricate cuts.
And definitely more affordable.

~~~
theatrus2
A CO2 laser will not cut stainless - it won't even mark steel unless you coat
it with a special ceramic.

You're looking at a very very large fiber / YAG laser to cut it. A low power
YAG laser can engrave steel - commercially these start at about $30k

~~~
krasin
Technically, the statement "CO2 laser will not cut stainless steel" is not
accurate. Stainless steel is commonly cut by 500W-5kW CO2 lasers, see:

[https://www.coherent.com/Applications/index.cfm?fuseaction=f...](https://www.coherent.com/Applications/index.cfm?fuseaction=forms.AppLevel2&AppLevel2ID=62)

[https://vimeo.com/106264555](https://vimeo.com/106264555)

But it's true that sub-100W CO2 lasers are not even remotely capable of
cutting steel.

------
mindo
Looks like a great toy until you go through comments here. Honestly would have
bought this for my woman, since she's into crafts and stuff, but cloud-only
cutting/engraving, comments on fumes and filters + dealing with customs (if
they even shipping int) quickly changed my mind. I've seen laser engravers on
kickstarter before, hope to see more machines that do not require clouds to
cut/etch a damn thing.

~~~
llamataboot
I really feel like if there are enough of these out there and the company
somehow decides to brick all of them (not that likely IMHO) that someone will
be able to come up with an open source solution for controlling it. I'd like
to know what their privacy policy is but I'm not particularly worried about it
becoming a multi-thousand dollar hunk of plastic.

I do wonder why the pre-order price is SO much cheaper than the actual price.
At pre-order it's a still. At regular price it's kinda a bit meh.

~~~
harryjo
They want to motivate interested buyers to pre-order. The "actual" price is
FUD.

------
ISL
How is a 40W laser Class I, but the 45W laser is Class IV?

~~~
aidenn0
You can get Class I by preventing human access, I'm guessing the Pro can't
have the same interlocks for some design reason.

~~~
mlmilleratmit
I think the pro is 'feed-able', wonder if that's it.

~~~
aidenn0
Yeah, I just saw that on their youtube video; the sides can remain open during
operation to allow etching/cutting of materials larger than the enclosure.
That means human access is possible, so therefore the class IV.

------
newmotors
@danshapiro Questions : 1) Why could you not have done this with a quad core
i7 box running ubuntu? The amount of time it will take to ship information
from my box to google cloud is longer than what can be done on my box. What
exact monetization strategy made you keep software/data in the cloud? 2) Any
ETA on when the machines will start shipping? Assuming you now know how many
people ordered already.

------
davidw
With the leather satchel they show, isn't the difficult really in stitching
it?

~~~
webwright
The laser cuts the holes perfectly-- so you do have to stitch it, but there's
no skill involved-- just time. :-)

------
exodust
Disappointed in the pricing tactics, and doubt the "50% off" is anything but
typical sales bull.

Back in Feb in an interview with Shapiro in the NYT it was stated "desktop
laser cutter that it plans to sell for around $2,000". No mention of this
being a special 50% off price.

And in May this year on geekdad.com, Shapiro "wants the price to be under
$2,500".

Now it emerges that this is actually the "50% off" price for 23 days only, and
the actual full price will be $4000 for the basic model?

It begs the question: what happened between May and now that the price of the
basic unit has doubled? What happened to the planned "$2000 laser printer"???

Or is the "50% off" just a lie to generate more initial sales, and later we'll
see "new fantastic discount slashed from $4000 down to an unbelievable $2000"?

I see a lot of this sales tactic in online tech products. Permanent discount
prices, there's always a "deal" happening. The RRP is some mythical price that
is never actually reached.

------
alexisnorman
I can't count the number of times a fire has started in my university woodshop
because of smoldering debris and general lack of safety knowledge with laser
cutters. I would assume this is something to be aware of with the Glowforge
but I don't see any safety information on your webpage. Is this something to
still worry about with 40W and 45W lasers?

------
Pxtl
This is going to be _epic_ for schools and print-shops. I think only hardcore
enthusiasts will want a home-home version of this tech, but I've spent enough
time with paper-cutters and cutting out letter shapes that this is really
cool.

Also, the boardgame industry can prototype cards much better with this -
printing out Catan-like hex-tiles and the like.

------
Animats
That's a nice unit, and adding a camera is a big step forward. More CNC
machines should have cameras to aid in alignment. I'd really like to have a
camera with high magnification on a CNC mill, rigidly mounted a known distance
from the spindle, and cross-hairs on the monitor.

------
thwd
There's a (golang) gopher hidden in the promo video at second 42:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysCaqh38JVQ&t=42s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysCaqh38JVQ&t=42s)

------
g1n016399
Thanks for the great discussion, I learned a ton of good info from this thread
which cotributed to me deciding to take the plunge and preorder the basic
Glowforce. I had hoped to go pro but between the poor US/CAD exchange rate and
the rather high price of shipping to Canada I could just not budget for it. If
anyone who is ordering wants to save us a $100 each, order through this
referal link :)
[http://glowforge.com/referred/?kid=H5xzt6](http://glowforge.com/referred/?kid=H5xzt6)

------
Timucin
$954 shipping cost to UK. Isn't it a bit high?

Also UK regulations says I need to be supervised to use a class 4 laser since
I can point it to somewhere I shouldn't. I wonder if that's still valid for an
enclosed product.

------
mlmilleratmit
I ordered one, wish I could pick it up in person instead of paying the
shipping. Particularly interested in seeing what one can do with just a pen
and skipping the computer design stage...

------
aidenn0
So I've seen danshapiro reply to a lot of comments here, but not a single one
asking about whether the cloud access is necessary for this to operate. Does
anyone know the answer?

------
diyseguy
It looks like vaporware to me. What gives me pause is the sneaky way they
present it as if it were a KickStarter project, but it's not. So all those
people shelling out for the early release are not protected if they close up
shop and disappear it seems to me. So many glowing promises, but will they be
able to follow through on all of them? I dunno. I am skeptical. (I hope they
do though, I seriously want this to be real).

------
blueflow
I'd like to quote a german comedian here:

"Never look into the laser with your remaining eye"

------
mezh
Here is $100 off if you use this link to order:
[http://glowforge.com/referred/?kid=QNUjZz](http://glowforge.com/referred/?kid=QNUjZz)

------
thrownaway2424
Can this device cut metals and if so which ones and of what thickness?

~~~
mchannon
A 40W CO2 laser will not cut metals, period.

Save yourself the wait and spend $395 on eBay to get a much more sturdy
version shipped to your door. It's not perfect but at that price, imperfection
is forgivable.

~~~
thrownaway2424
OK. We have a laser cutter at work that will cut very thin metal stock but I
don't know what its power is or anything else about it.

------
blhack
Awesome! I hope laser cutters (which IMHO is one of the most magical DIY tools
there is) start getting the same sort of attention that 3D printers have been.

------
ZenoArrow
Could you use this for single sided PCB printing?

~~~
mmastrac
In theory this process should work (it still requires etching as you can't cut
copper with this laser):

[http://www.instructables.com/id/Custom-PCB-Prototyping-
using...](http://www.instructables.com/id/Custom-PCB-Prototyping-using-a-
Laser-Cutter/)

~~~
thrownaway2424
That seems like a lot more effort than traditional photoresist printing that
you can do with an inkjet printer (or just freehand with a marker).

------
ape4
Whats the purpose of the big button the device? I would have thought starting
a print from your computer would turn it on.

~~~
oasisbob
It's the "the cloud can't activate a 40W cutting laser in your home by itself"
button.

At least that's how it's explained more-or-less in one of the videos. Makes
sense to ensure that the operator is in front of the machine and has
everything properly loaded before firing the laser. Who knows how much of that
is really intended as a security process...

------
llamataboot
Wonder what they are prepared to do for their initial run?? Looks like there
has been /quite/ a response so far!

------
pimlottc
Looks very nice, but I was a little disappointed that the sample gallery items
did not have links to actual projects.

------
cfontes
Fuck, I hate not living in the US when things like this appear.

~~~
marcosdumay
Worst part is that if I try to buy something like this in Brazil, it'll
probably get apprehended by customs as a dangerous item.

~~~
chromaton
If there are no importers/dealers in Brazil, this is a business opportunity to
import machines from China.

~~~
outworlder
An opportunity? Let's see.

There are lots of customs fees involved that are not considered taxes per-se.
But let's ignore them and look at taxes:

You get a 60% import tax right off the bat (this applies over the product
cost, the aforementioned fees AND shipping). Then, there's ICMS, which varies
by state (let's say, 12%). There's also IPI, which is variable according to
the product and I'm not sure where a laser cutter would fit in. Also PIS
(1.65%), COFINS (7.6%) and IOF since it probably involves currency exchange
(0.38%).

Speaking of that... there's the unfavorable exchange rate. Today, the real hit
a high of BRL 4.23 for one USD. It was 2.50 something one year ago, and then
the economy blew up.

I'm not going to the trouble of trying to calculate the final price, without
the importer's markup, but it will be HIGH. Good luck marketing this thing to
anything other than medium businesses. And that one year from now. You'll
spend like an year incorporating your company and navigating the customs law
mess.

There are other options, of course. Manufacturing locally would bypass a lot
of taxes (and generate others). But then you could negotiate deals with local
authorities in exchange for job creation and some strategic dinners. That sort
of stuff. The opportunity cost of doing that is just huge and, by the time you
managed all that, you'd be profitable in several other countries already.

Then you'll have to deal with the crappy transportation infrastructure. Forget
shipping things by train, you'll have to use trucks. Delivery estimates of 30
business days are not uncommon at all.

My advice? Stay away from Brazil. Even more so this year. There's a reason
investors are pulling money out of the country.

Disclaimer: I'm Brazilian.

~~~
marcosdumay
> There's a reason investors are pulling money out of the country.

Fun fact, they mostly aren't anymore. (Go figure. I guess the country is so
crazy that nobody knows what to do.) That isn't stopping the Real from falling
anyway.

------
desireco42
It looks really amazing, but until it gets shipped and reviewed, it is just a
video. I don't doubt they have prototypes nor I doubt their ability to ship,
but once you do, then it is a real product.

------
xrjn
I spend a lot of time playing with a laser cutter (120w generic from China). A
lot of the things that they talk about are quite cool, but I think that they
do not show all the other parts that also require time and effort - although I
do imagine that one of their value propositions is that they remove and/or
simplify a lot of the processes and their complexities. One of the biggest
issues I currently have is to generate a file that the laser cutter will like
- it has to be a dxf with no sub layers or any linked files, or a old
illustrator file (.ai version 8). Each "settings layer" has to have it's own
distinct color, and sometimes if the colors are too close, they get merged
into one. It can also be difficult to set the correct distance between the
things that you want to engrave and the things that you want to cut - say you
want to engrave a round logo on a round beer coaster: getting this perfect
would take a lot of tweaking, as there are minor (yet visible) gaps and mis-
alignments.

Next, to get the laser to cut properly also takes some tweaking. It's almost
impossible to get a repeatable cut, since there are so many different factors
that you need to take into play: the location of the item you're cutting on
the bed, the temperature of the laser, the thickness and quality of your
material, the accuracy of the auto-focus, and the settings themselves. If we
look at the location for example, there is a huge difference between the top
left corner - where the laser mirror is - and the bottom right corner. On one
side your material will catch fire, on the other, it will only cut half way
through. The material is also an important factor - if the material is even
0.2mm thicker on the top compared to the bottom (especially true for acrylic),
then the laser will go through on one side, and won't go through on the other.
For wood, tiny differences in it's quality can have a significant impact on
the cut and especially on any engraving you do. With wood and similar, easily
smudged materials, you also have this sort of 'caramelisation' after you cut
and engrave - the degree of this effect depends on whether you used the right
power or not (for which you also have to take into account the location,
temperature, material quality,...). If you try to clean it off by hand or with
a dry tissue, you will smudge it further and it will be difficult to remove.
Instead, you have to painstakingly clean every piece you cut with an alcohol
soaked cloth, which will remove most of these smudges - however it won't
remove any burn marks. As per the burn marks, you get a lot more of them when
you use a honeycomb bed compared to one which has a number of thin pieces of
metal that stretch across with a few cm interval. The glowforge laser has this
honeycomb bed, so expect your wood, cardboard and paper cutouts to have some
of these burn marks if you don't pay very close attention to the power/speed
of the cut. With plastic, getting a cleaner cut is a bit easier, but the fumes
are horrendous. Also, if you don't cut through the whole thickness of the
plastic the first time, and do another pass, the edges which you cut will have
these 'micro-cracks' that dont' look very professional. Similarly, if you cut
with too much power, your plastic edges will just melt and look quite bad.
However, an advantage with plastic cutting is that you can clean it without
too much difficulty, if you use sufficient alcohol you can get most burn marks
away.

Engraving looks really nice when done with a laser cutting, but it does take
some time until you figure out the correct settings for each material. I
particularly _love_ engraved plastic and wood, the result (especially from
genuine, extruded plexiglass) is beautiful and vey professional. A local
public figure has had a picture of him holding a laser-engraved logo that I
made him as his profile picture. Personally, I made some laser cut business
cards, and they have absolutely blown away a lot of people - one person even
told me that he stuck it to his wall for inspiration. I've also worked on
laser cut tags/tokens that I give out as a promotional gift to people, and
then they can use it as a fidelity card when they order things through my
startup. I'm still working on perfecting these tags, but they required a lot
of testing (over 30 different attempts just to get the QR code to engrave in a
readable way), and I still haven't been able to generate them through software
(right now they have to be put into illustrator before exporting them to the
laser cutter). Lastly, engraving paper will likely incredibly difficult. On
their page they have a sheet of paper that they engraved - I want to know how
many attempts it took them before they got it to work - especially since the
paper gets very easily caramelised. Maybe they had to use a special coating or
used yellow/blue painters tape?

Despite all of this, laser cutters are extremely cool. The one we have cost
$4000, and people have done lots of amazing things with it. Nowadays, you can
get a 40w laser from ebay or aliexpress for a few hundred dollars, but do
expect to spend weeks figuring out how to use it. The Glowforge looks like a
pretty cool idea, however I don't know if they'll be able to survive at this
price point + with the technology being at the state it is today. Their
software (minus the part where it's cloud based), looks really powerful and
very useful.

------
knieveltech
Aaaaand we're done here.

~~~
dang
Please don't post unsubstantive comments. That, combined with snark about new
work, is something we try to avoid on HN. Of course, there's a legit point
about cloud-connected products here too and you're welcome to comment about
that substantively.

Edit: We detached this subthread from
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10273316](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10273316)
and marked it off-topic.

It's true that there are other unsubstantive comments in the thread, and many
more elsewhere on HN, but we can't reply to them all. Our intention is
absolutely not to pick on anyone personally, but to provide signals to the
community about the level of discourse we're all going for here.

------
linkydinkandyou
I've worked with Laser cutters and, unless they have fixed things, you really
don't want to be cutting items--especially paper and cardboard--without
industrial "shop" ventilation. And many times I've set my work on fire.

------
macintux
Still waiting for a lightsaber for taming my jungle of a yard. Is that so much
to ask?

