
Why I Tried To Kill Myself at Penn - optul
http://pennmentalhealth.tumblr.com/post/76246077927/why-i-tried-to-kill-myself-at-penn
======
tptacek
_Penn’s response? – Sending some administrator to see me in the hospital
(HUP). The first and only thing that she said was, “Are we going to make this
an annual pattern?” because I had been hospitalized the year before. I said
“No” and she gave me her business card._

My kids are going to college in a couple of years. How do I avoid sending them
to places like this?

People expect (and should expect) to be treated better than this by their
_employers_. But by their _vendors_?

~~~
lutusp
I suggest that you think a bit more deeply about this. It's possible that the
administrator was being thoughtless, but there's another interpretation --
it's a bad idea to give suicide attempters too much attention. By responding
with too much sympathy, one can become a "suicide enabler", the suicide
equivalent of a narcissistic enabler.

If a person threatens suicide and gets nothing but attention and sympathy,
this can trigger a cyclical, escalating pattern of threats and sympathetic
responses that can sometimes trap the person into going through with the
suicide.

Here's a true story -- many years ago one of my brothers committed suicide.
After a few weeks, another brother told me he was compiling a list of people
he felt were responsible for the suicide. My first comment was, "Is [the
suicide] included on the list?" Of course, he wasn't. My next comment was that
the list was dangerous -- the suicide's son would see how attentive and
sympathetic everyone was being and he might begin to think suicide was a good
idea. My brother didn't really understand what I was saying, the list got
created and passed around, and a few years later, the suicide's son committed
suicide also.

True story.

~~~
gizmo
I'm very sorry you lost people to suicide. Compiling the list may just have
been a coping mechanism for your brother, and I don't think it's fair to think
it had anything to do with the son's suicide.

~~~
lutusp
> Compiling the list may just have been a coping mechanism for your brother,
> and I don't think it's fair to think it had anything to do with the son's
> suicide.

I didn't say it that way, either here or at the time. I only warned my brother
that the list might provoke my nephew to kill himself, not that this would
make my brother responsible. The actual suicide was, of course, solely the
responsibility of the nephew.

~~~
dennisgorelik
Did your brother tell you that he was sorry for ignoring your advise, after
your nephew killed himself?

------
joesmo
It's ridiculous that the author doesn't even consider that her taking
prescribed Wellbutrin (and possibly other medicines) could have led to this.
I'm quite sure such "anti-depressants" (what a misnomer) had a lot more to do
with the suicide than anything Penn or any other institution or individual
could possibly have. Of course, this is an extremely unpopular opinion, though
based on medical cases and evidence, in our culture which sees drugs as the
solution to all mental problems.

~~~
mikestew
I took Wellbutrin back when it was popular to prescribe as an aid to get off
nicotine. OMG, what horrible stuff (for me, anyway). I wasn't ready to stick a
shotgun in my mouth or anything, but it gave me a severe case of what a friend
called "the fuckits". Didn't care about anything (including the consumption of
nicotine). I would have been content to sit and do nothing. One day when I had
some from free time and the house to myself, I decided to go for a motorcycle
ride down some twisty road. Got a few miles down the road and decided I didn't
care about going for a motorcycle ride. Considering that one of the reasons I
moved next to the Appalachian Mountains was for the fantastic motorcycle
riding, that was a strong enough signal that I quit taking the stuff.

Now that's anecdotal, and your mileage most certainly may vary, but I now
understand how a mis-diagnosis and an inappropriate prescription can cause
problems.

~~~
a8da6b0c91d
It's interesting that very safe chemicals like tianeptine and phenibut are not
approved and used clinically in America, as they are in other countries.
Instead much more profitable chemicals with known dangers are used.

------
grannyg00se
"The night of my suicide attempt I called a friend and told him that I was
contemplating suicide. He told me he was sorry and to call a suicide hotline.
We have not talked about my suicide attempt since that night. "

The word 'friend' is used over ten times referring to some human acquaintance
or other but it really seems like this person doesn't have a single _real_
friend.

~~~
Par_Avion
Good catch. I feel like the author failed to mention this- There might've been
a much different conclusion if she had found her niche.

~~~
Einstalbert
I don't remember a single class or even a single conversation with a parent,
pastor, other kind of leader figure, from my youth about "how to deal with
friends or people who have problems." Sometimes you're lucky and get the, "How
to find help if you feel like you're in trouble" resources but how in the hell
does someone know how to handle this situation? I don't feel qualified to help
anyone other than my immediate closest friends and family regarding the topic
of suicide, and even then I feel overwhelmed just thinking about it. There are
professionals out there who know what to say, when the saying is important to
be done, as I know for sure that listening is a big component of help. I just
have no words other than to share my own struggles, and oftentimes people
don't want to hear about anything other than their own pit.

------
seancoleman
I believe suicidal tendencies is simply when the weight of feelings from
depression, anxiety, and psychosis outweigh results from coping mechanisms. I
don't think it has as much to do with feelings of sadness or lack of
happiness.

~~~
sliverstorm
Is happiness not a coping mechanism for anxiety?

~~~
lutusp
> Is happiness not a coping mechanism for anxiety?

That describes happiness as a method, rather than an effect or an outcome. But
it's an effect, generally out of people's control except as a desirable
outcome of things that really are methods, like jogging or crossword puzzles.

Happiness isn't a switch that you can throw, it's the light that results from
throwing the switch.

------
watty
> it is that the environment here is so stressful that everyone is driven to
> the point where they need to be at CAPS.

I feel sorry for those who suffer from depression, I have been there myself in
a rough patch of my life. It seems like the author is indirectly blaming Penn,
that it causes all students to "NEED" a therapist. This simply isn't true.

------
zallarak
That's sad to hear of a suicide attempt and I hope the author finds peace and
stability.

With that said, I am firmly of the opinion that it is not the responsibility
of an educational institution to change to accommodate people who find an
environment too stressful. If one finds it too difficult or stressful and the
institution is providing adequate mental health services (which the author
acknowledged), you are simply in an environment you should not be in. Go to a
college that is more relaxing. You have hundreds of other options that will be
much less stressful. Changing Penn to a less stressful environment would not
make it Penn anymore. Lots of people thrive at and enjoy Penn.

I do not mean to sound harsh - it's simply a reality. It just concerns me that
the author acknowledges the school makes him/her suicidal yet is unwilling to
leave and lays the blame on the school for his/her suicidal attempts.

------
tonydiv
As someone who just graduated from Penn last May, I feel inclined to comment.

Penn can be a stressful environment, no doubt. Most of the students who attend
Penn were at the top of their class in high school. Many dominated in
athletics as well. For these reasons, some students are shocked by the level
of excellence, and the rigor of some classes.

That said, I would be cautious to generalize this story. I know people who
have received help from CAPS, and they are healthy-minded friendly students
today. As with any school, the most important thing you can do is join
communities or clubs where there is a collective enthusiasm for something
outside of class.

As a graduate, I can confidently say I loved Penn, and my peers would say the
same. I'm also glad these stories of students are being shared because there
is always room for improvement.

------
cryoshon
Sounds like she had a lot of awful friends who outright refused to be there
for her.

~~~
lutusp
> Sounds like she had a lot of awful friends who outright refused to be there
> for her.

Don't be too hard on them -- it's likely they were also struggling and making
difficult choices too.

------
DanBC
When I have a broken leg I go to doctors to have it fixed. My friends[1] play
an important role in helping me get groceries or chatting to me about the
awful itchyness. But qualified professionals do the xrays and put the cast on.

When I have a severe mental health problem why do people think that a few
chats with people who have little experience of mentla health treatment is
going to help?

Sure, for the mild end society really needs to be better at talking about this
stuff. And it's great if people are supportive when talking about the severe
end too. But chatting to a pal is 't going to fix my suicidal thinking.

I found the blog post confusing. It refers to an event from a few years ago
and MH practice moves rapidly. It mentioned how tricky the author found it to
talk about MH problems but then asks other people to be better at talking
about MH problems. She mentions a history of depression and anxiety but she
didn't appear to have good rainy day action plans or coping techniques.

I'm not sure what the takeawY is: "don't be a high stress environment" seems
reasonable but you're fighting a losing battle with that one.

[1] lol as if I have friends.

------
nhashem
While the OP was focused on Penn (I'm a Penn grad '04, fwiw), I'm sure this is
pretty common at a lot of other selective colleges. I wrestled with a lot of
the same exact feelings the OP did, although it never quite got so bad for me.

Ultimately I just remember struggling so much with... "identity," if that's
the right word for it. Penn basically ended up disproving everything I thought
I knew about myself when I was 18. I thought I was a "high achieving"
individual, then I was suddenly very average. I thought I was someone that
made friends easily, then I found myself on a campus with 11,000 undergrads
yet basically felt like I had no friends. I thought my ethnicity was
irrelevant because I we now lived in a post-racial America (hah!), but it
seemed like so many organizations there defined themselves by socioeconomic or
racial lines. I thought I was good at programming, yet I felt so completely
lost in my comp sci classes.

It was pretty harrowing feeling like everything I thought I knew about myself
was false, and I couldn't figure out what was true, and I was still expected
to achieve at a very high level while I was figuring it out. The OP's anecdote
about going to Wawa really hit home, because I remember almost literally the
same thing happening to me, and that's all it would take to feel like nothing
made sense anymore. Am I really the kind of person who doesn't have a single
fucking friend out of 11,000 undergrads that would take a 10 minute break to
grab a sandwich?

The OP seemed to blame Penn as an institution, and I do think these selective
universities could do more to recognize that some of their students will
basically feel like they've been abruptly thrown into a crucible, and it's not
always painless to adjust. The OP advocates things like publishing suicide
rates, but I think that's just another way of advocating, "please tell
everyone they don't need to pretend everything is great, because I've felt
fucking miserable sometimes and I don't think I'm the only one."

There was a guy in my freshman dorm that basically did "crack" and abruptly
withdrew for the semester, and I just remember everyone just kind of smirking
about it. "Yeah, Sean went nuts or something. Was spazzing out over a midterm
and then next thing I know, all his stuff's packed and he's gone. Guess he
couldn't hack it."

I didn't smirk. I just remember feeling sad and wishing Sean had said
something to me. Feeling overwhelmed apparently meant "going nuts." Was that
fair? That didn't seem fair. I don't think Sean would have thought it was fair
either. Maybe we could have gotten a sandwich at Wawa and talked about that.

------
moron4hire
I think a big part of this is "don't go to Penn". It has a bad reputation in
Philadelphia in general. I'm not going to get too into detail about what that
reputation is[1], but suffice to say, I think OP probably would have a much
better time at a different school completely. Even Drexel, which is literally
next door to Penn, is nicer in terms of how students are treated and treat
each other.

Going to Penn is basically accepting all of the expense and pressure of
attending Harvard or Yale, without the prestige. And in my mind, the only
reason to put up with the expense of those schools _is_ the prestige. It's not
like you can't get a great education at far cheaper schools.

[1] other than to say that the story of the relationship with an emotionally
abusive pre-med boyfriend isn't terribly surprising.

------
RankingMember
From my unscientific "splatterwall of experiences", this is pretty much the
norm, though I know of exceptions, such as smaller, gender-specific colleges
that will bend over backwards to help (e.g. girls or boys-only colleges).

------
mmxiii
I knew multiple people at MIT who used the mental health services/therapists
there. My impression was that their experience was positive, and that at least
someone was there to listen and have a conversation with them.

------
x0054
While in college I also felt out of place and friendless for some time. My
suggestion to college students now would be to join clubs around your
interests. Soccer, ultimate frisbee, archery, chess, trading cards, what ever.
Just make a little effort, and I am sure you will find friends. Join clubs you
personally like, rather then clubs that make you look cool or something like
that. This way you'll actually hang out with people who like the same things
you do, and may give you more of a chance.

To colleges, create a system that makes it easy to organize such clubs and
maintain them. Like a college centric meetup. Set it up and promote the hell
out of it to the first years. Perhaps there is a startup opportunity here, to
make the system and sell it to colleges! Facebook works well for this, but it
would be easier to do this if there was a central repository of different
group that college students have started, and a simple way to request
university resources, like rooms, etc.

On suicide, this may sound cold, but if you want to kill your self, do it.
Honestly, I feel it's every persons right to dispose off with their life as
they will. But DO NOT threaten suicide as a way to get attention! Doing so is
no different then you taking someone as a hostage and threatening to kill that
person just to get attention. You are basically saying to the world "Pay
attention to me, and if you do not, someone is going to die, and it's YOUR
fault." If you feel really sad, call your friends and be honest, tell them
that you feel really sad and you NEED someone to talk to desperately. If they
are your true friends, they will make time for you. I would, for any of the
people I call friends, no matter the time of night or what ever. And if they
ignore you, telling them you are going to kill your self isn't going to change
anything, they are not your friends, and they don't give a shit. Call your
parents or family, if that's an option. Parents may seem like distant and not
understanding at that age, but in most cases they will stick by you even if
you have no one else.

Finally, just food for thought, my dad once told me this about evolution: In
nature the "winners" are those creatures that pass their genes on to the next
generation, and the "losers" are those creatures who's genetic lineage is cut
off. Just based on the fact that you are alive today you can be assured that
you come for a very, very, very long line of winners. So, when you feel down
on your self, just remember, there are millions of generations of creatures
which came before you. They figured out how to succeed in life, thus making
you possible, and so will you, just give it time. Just about the only way to
lose in life it to stop playing. So check out if you like, but if you stick
around, the odds are on your side.

------
no_wave
Note that in any sane universe you'd feel able to talk to your parents about
this. But we're in backwards-land, where parents exist to be impressed.

------
michaelochurch
Suicide doesn't usually happen when people are depressed. It happens when
they're going into or out of a depression. Think of depression as night;
suicide usually happens at evening or morning twilight. More often, the
morning twilight. They're getting out of depression, can see the big picture
again (when you're depressed, you can't) and realize what a mess their lives
are in. They freak out, for lack of a better word. They're not in the throes
of depression, but still emotionally unstable. _That_ is when suicide tends to
happen.

Society makes it worse by kicking such people when they're down and making it
a lot harder for people to pull themselves out of depression and get the
recovery they need.

 _For example, when I missed a midterm exam because I was in the hospital
after my suicide attempt, my professor did not allow me to make it up._

See, it's shit like that. One period of illness and now you're playing for a
D+. One slip and your life just might be fucked.

Ok, and here's why this will never improve in American society. We run this
contest of superficial reliability at relatively easy (intellectually
speaking) work, and our corporate overlords are selected based on who drops
last. Usually, the culling agent is a short-term episode of anxiety or
depression (or "burn out") in a normal person. They're considered "the weak"
and pushed aside. That is why our society cannot, on the terms it lives by
now, ever accommodate these genuine (and serious) medical problems.

As it's structured now, society is more about competing for position than
excellence, and the result of that is that people _have_ to be kicked when
they're down.

I would argue for scrapping the whole thing (society, that is), rethinking all
assumptions, and gearing our society toward genuine excellence (and toward
helping the sick, unconditionally) rather than mindless, senseless
competition... but that's just me.

------
dhfjgkrgjg
A member of our year took their life at college. None of us knew whatever was
going on in their life or mind. And that is the hardest part - societal stigma
prevented the person reaching out to peers and friends, and probably stopped
us collectively being proactive in stepping in, in case we mistakenly labelled
someone as appearing in need of help.

It transpired they had tried to reach help online, the place where most youth
head these days, but instead of help they received encouragement to kill
themaelves.

Cracking the very tough nut of getting people actually talking would save more
lives and disrupt more attempts.

------
smartistone
attention seeking behavior- attempting suicide and then blogging about it and
then possibly posting it here and elsewhere.

also not sure how this story relates to hacking, computers, etc

Why didn't the college do more? Because it's a place intended for learning,
not mental health rehabilitation.

~~~
josh-wrale
The word "university" has in it a form of "whole". As such, IMHO, this "place
for learning" should strive toward teaching AND fostering coping mechanisms.
Coping is, after all, and again IMHO, a key component to success. Tell us,
without the basic will to live, what is success or "higher education"?

------
a3voices
> I tried to kill myself at Penn because I felt so utterly alone.

If I was the only person on Earth, I wouldn't kill myself. Life isn't about
feeling happy all the time.

~~~
mentalhealth
Suicidal ideation is, in general, not a choice a person makes. It's the result
of a combination of depression and lack of inhibition, due to anything ranging
from psychosis to extreme anxiety or stress. If you were sufficiently
depressed and stressed from being the last person on Earth, you'd most likely
commit suicide.

~~~
sp332
Exactly, so the statement "I tried to kill myself at Penn because I felt so
utterly alone." is probably wrong. I mean it's probably subjectively true, and
it's informative, but loneliness probably didn't cause this person to attempt
suicide.

~~~
kaonashi
That was her description of her subjective experience, but she made it clear
that it was most likely due to the stress & anxiety.

