
A Culture Against Dropouts, Deviants and Troubled Young Adults - jimsojim
https://medium.com/@levlinds/a-culture-against-dropouts-deviants-troubled-young-adults-a-mcgill-dropout-s-perspective-d3b201cfcbd2
======
gozo
I'm always split when reading stories like this.

On the one hand, I really feel for the person and appreciate her sharing.
Problems like these rarely consider the practicality of the situation and
shouldn't be taken lightly.

On the other, I know there are kids out there who never got to go to a good
school, always had problems at home and never got to feel the joy of learning.
They can't write this kind of story and even if they did no one would read it.
They can't travel somewhere, don't have anything to be cut off from nor will
ever meet someone who saves them. They can't stop doing things that hurt them
and if they become depressed they might very well end up being homeless.

Or the high-performing poor kids who might have to work or in other ways face
academic death from a thousand papercuts. Many times because families with
better resources uses all their power to make overexertion a desirable thing
so other kids can't compete.

Or just the normal kids who already knew from the beginning what was important
and the limits to being productive. Maybe they went to a good state school and
now regardless of merit have to live with being last in line after people from
private schools time and time again.

I guess my point is that when we contemplate a fix to these problems I hope we
also don't overlook the people in different situations with similar problems.

~~~
jinushaun
100x Yes!

I had a similar argument recently. It was all fun and games talking about the
problems with traditional education and the loss of creative thinking until I
pointed out that the only reason we can have this debate is because we went to
good schools, got good grades and got good jobs.

As someone who grew up poor and extremely grateful to get out of the ghetto,
I'm consistently surprised that I'm surrounded by unhappy well-off peers who
have similar struggles and offer similar advice (quit job/school, follow your
heart, travel, go to Burning Man, etc). These are lamentations and luxuries of
the leisure class. Money doesn't buy happiness, but everything still costs
money. When you satisfy 90% of what most people define as needed to keep them
happy and comfortable, that last 10% takes over your world. In a post scarcity
society, we are all trapped at the top of Maslow's hierarchy of needs and
happiness seems harder and harder to achieve. Instead of being happy with what
we have, we keep moving the bar.

Don't get me wrong, the author's problems are real and valid, and there is
something wrong with our society when kids start committing suicide over GPAs,
but a large part of me fears for our future. Maybe Star Trek really is a
dystopia…

~~~
dropit_sphere
Are people impressed that you got out of the ghetto? Would people be as
impressed if, say, a Kennedy your age was where you are now?

I guess I'm just agreeing with you. Everybody takes some knocks---which is
ensured by the fact that some knocks are caused by not having had any.

------
mwhuang2
My peers in high school were overachievers who seemed to have everything
figured out. I had no idea what I was doing and often had close to failing
grades, despite scoring high on standardized tests (2390 SAT + 800 SAT II
Math).

I got rejected from almost every college I applied to and ended up dropping
out after a year when I actually did go. I worked two jobs and took community
college classes for a year before returning to university.

I'm definitely more focused and mature now. I think people shouldn't feel the
need to conform to the "normal" path of going off to college right away.
There's really no single correct way to go through life. I needed time to
figure things out for myself instead of adhering to a system I wasn't
comfortable in.

~~~
55555
You had a 2390 on your SATs and were rejected from colleges?

~~~
mwhuang2
I applied mostly to Ivies and similarly competitive colleges. They get plenty
of applicants with near-perfect test scores and GPAs, so my poor grades made
me a subpar candidate.

~~~
Moto7451
This happened with people in the highly gifted magnet at my High School. It
didn't matter that they were taking nothing but AP classes by teachers hell
bent on being extremely difficult. They saw consistent C and B grades and a
1600/2400 (I went to High School during the transition from 2 part to 3 part
SAT). Some didn't get accepted anywhere due to the fact they only applied two
a few Ivy League schools.

------
forthefuture
So I'm a similar situation except I'm hopelessly introverted. The idea of a
bootcamp seems good to my parents, but to me it's just another word for
school. At this point it would be easier to get a computer science degree than
to do a bootcamp because doing work in groups is the first thing I check for
on a syllabus before I drop a class.

It sure looks good though, pay $15,000 for a 97% chance at getting a job. I
just don't want to pay someone to teach me something I already know just to
get a job. That's why I dropped out of college.

~~~
cwyers
It's not like "group work" doesn't exist once you get to the working world.

~~~
fivealarm
The group work required of students isn't even remotely representative of the
type of collaborating that is required in the workplace. It's just a bullshit
excuse to tick a box they know appeals to potential employers.

~~~
cwyers
I think it probably resembles the workplace about as much as anything about
being a student resembles the workplace, which is to say, not much at all. But
the original post was about not wanting to do a coding boot camp because of
the personal interaction. And how he doesn't want to pay someone to teach him
"something he already knows" to get a job. But a job is about a lot more than
just technical proficiency, and it sounds like something is being... if not
taught, at least tested for in these contexts that is also needed to succeed
at working life for most people.

------
jensen123
In Japan they have this phenomenom called hikikomori - young people shutting
themselves off from the world, kinda like the person in the article did for a
while, until his parents threatened to cut him off. I'm wondering why we don't
have much of this hikikomori phenomenom in the West - is it simply because
Western parents don't tolerate it?

~~~
ZenoArrow
I would suggest that we do have it in the West. It's not unknown to know
people who live at their family home well into their 20s, don't work, don't go
out much, spend their time getting stoned, watching TV, surfing the web, and
playing computer games.

The only major differences between the hikikomori and the equivalent Western
stereotype is that food isn't brought to the room, and this leads to some
limited social interactions with those around them.

I can understand the appeal of being a recluse, and I'd much rather someone
became a recluse than topped themselves.

~~~
cloudier
The equivalent Western stereotype is probably the neckbeard. It's prevalent
enough to have shown up in mainstream media, e.g. South Park's Make Love, Not
Warcraft.

~~~
roghummal
What do you call a female neckbeard, then?

~~~
JD557
I believe that the most common term is legbeard[1], although its usage is
quite rare.

[http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=legbeard](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=legbeard)

------
werber
I relate so much to this article. Being put into a situation where you have a
real connection with other people and real ideas like a boot camp is amazing.
There is way too much disconnection in academia. Places where the success of
the students determines the fate of the teachers, and vice versa, makes a way
more real environment. Anywhere equal investment despite histories as the
basis of the Thing at hand is going to make people better off. I'm rambling

~~~
a-saleh
> There is way too much disconnection in academia.

It depends. Sometimes there is, when you sit among 500 mostly disinterested
peers in a lecture hall and lecturer is taunting you that he is there to make
half of you fail.

And sometimes you stay in the lab late into the night because you know, that
your advisor needs these results to extend his grant money. And all your lab-
mates are like "But you are just a master's student, you shouldn't care about
this publish-grant-cycle BS untill second year of your PHD!"

and you can have many in-betweens.

------
papapra
I'm in a similar situation, now at university, no idea for what I'm waking up
in the morning, living the zombie life. Only I don't come from upper class,
nor I'm very talented. So the reality for people like me is somewhat
different.

~~~
tomjen3
Lol, if that is upper class then I am upper class too. Didn't have much money
growing up, so I am kinda surprised.

------
dopeboy
It takes a lot of courage to write something like this. Lindsay, if you're
reading this, I tip my hat off to you for sitting down and delving deep into
some of these challenges. Only when we make ourselves truly vulnerable do we
grow and I hope both the actual act of writing this piece and the subsequent
commentary you get makes you a better human being.

As a "traditionally educated" person who went to a public school and an ivy,
university is very much optimized for people who can be programmed easily. And
I don't mean that in a nefarious / brainwashy type of way. School is a game
with rules and objectives. Follow the rules, modestly achieve the objectives,
and you're validated with a degree. This validation is sanctioned by society
and in some places (law, medicine), mandated by law.

Go off path? Deviate and carve your own path? _Refuse_ to go on a path? You're
off reservation and labelled a "dropout." You're not in the box everyone is
used to conceptualizing you in. They don't understand you which leads to one
of two reactions: 1) they fear you or 2) they dismiss you as a non-threat.

~~~
Futurebot
I'd add to that list "couldn't go on the path in the first place", too, as
there are plenty of people who fall into that bucket. I wish there were more
public acknowledgement of the sentiments in your last paragraph. Refreshing
comment.

------
xrjn
I feel that I'm in a fairly related situation myself. A week ago I packed my
backpack, and flew out to London to start a startup. Since my parents are not
really supportive of me as I'm not "studying or working" in their opinion -
I'm mostly on my own.

I've had some tough times recently, especially in the past week. But every
time, I just look ahead and see what I can make, what I can build, what I want
to achieve. It is _very_ difficult to get anything done if you don't have a
clear vision of your future. It's _very_ important to avoid discouraging
teenagers and young adults from going on their own path.

~~~
hugh4
>It's _very_ important to avoid discouraging teenagers and young adults from
going on their own path.

Alternative idea: it's important to discourage teenagers and young adults from
going their own path, to make sure that only those who are really prepared and
committed will actually do it. Like the old Jewish tradition of telling anyone
who wanted to convert "no, go away" three times before eventually letting them
start the process.

~~~
duggan
The problem is that this is just rephrasing "survival of the fittest," a
concept misappropriated from evolutionary theory into societal planning
numerous times by despots, and which - to my mind - has no place in a society
mindful of its incomplete information about what constitutes "fittest."

~~~
saint_fiasco
It's not like "unfit" people are being left to die. They are just encouraged
to live normal real lives instead of young-adult-novel lives.

