
Palantir CEO rips Silicon Valley, accuses it of selling out America - bane
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/23/palantir-ceo-rips-silicon-valley-peers-for-sowing-seeds-of-division.html
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paxys
> Karp, whose Palo Alto, California-based company provides services to the
> Defense Department, CIA and FBI, blasted tech companies that refuse work
> with the federal government to keep the country safe.

This guy has a very different definition of "selling out America"

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mmanfrin
As opposed to Palantir, which sells out the American _people_.

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RockIslandLine
Demonstrate how those programs _do_ keep the country safe. Just because
someone wants to do it doesn't mean that it's actually valuable work. \------
"Karp, whose Palo Alto, California-based company provides services to the
Defense Department, CIA and FBI, blasted tech companies that refuse work with
the federal government to keep the country safe."

~~~
zdragnar
It's not so much the programs as the analysts who use them (and confirm the
outputs) I think.

I once had the pleasure of watching one use nothing but twitter posts to map
out all the gang territories of Chicago. While he was at it, he found evidence
in a murder case and found a picture someone posted of themselves holding an
RPG in the city. If I remember correctly, he'd put all of this together in 3
days.

Of course, he was independent and so had to rely on the publicly available
twitter searches, where the expectation is that tweets are public. The good -
and terrible - things that could be done with access to what people expect to
be private is a far more challenging prospect to justify.

And, I think that is a debate worth having. However, it is certainly a forgone
conclusion that the programs _can_ and _do_ contribute to stopping bad actors.

~~~
bilbo0s
Just as a matter of optics, some advice would be to provide more "national
security" based anecdata. It's just a fact that people are going to look more
and more askance at these technologies when they believe that the best example
uses involve apparent street level drug dealers as opposed to, say,
international terrorists with dirty bombs. And to be fair to layman, one is a
law enforcement issue, the other is a national security issue.

So if we're talking about using these things for national security, that's one
thing in the minds of the critics. (The reasonable critics anyway.) But if
we're talking about giving it to every joe blow cop on the street, people are
going to be, understandably, uncomfortable. Why? Because I always say, there
are hundreds of thousands of laws and regulations in this nation. There really
is no way a regular person can guarantee that they are in compliance with
every one of them at all times. So if we're going to, sort of, "automate" the
discovery of which crime any given citizen is committing, people can kind of
see where that might lead to a dark, dark place.

Or, long story short, most people, quite reasonably, believe that tech like
this deployed against street level pot dealers will eventually be used against
themselves. With all of the societal implications that entails.

~~~
zdragnar
They did do some national security related work as well, of course, but I was
a bit intentional with the policing aspect.

Like any tool, it's not inherently good or bad. That means that we should give
it extra scrutiny, because the more powerful it is, the more prone to abuse it
could be.

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pgodzin
> "The reason why people put up with crazy looking people that are doing their
> thing in a different way is because we have historically delivered either
> jobs or national security," Karp told CNBC on Wednesday. "People understood
> the value of what we're doing."

Has Silicon Valley ever had a particular history of delivering "national
security". I would say more than jobs or national security SV has delivered
free or cheaper consumer-facing products, which is the real value the entire
country has seen.

~~~
et-al
SV has always worked with the DoD, and the internet was a DARPA project. More
tangibly, Lockheed Martin was founded in Palo Alto, and Raytheon is still in
the area.

But I'm guessing your question is asking whether or not these products have
resulted in "national security". Does having more fighter jets or satellites
make us safer? Traditionally, yes. However in the 21st century, I think we
need to focus more on robust systems of communication while building bridges
with the rest of the world.

~~~
dkersten
I remember reading a rather interesting "history of SV as a tech hub" type
documentary series of articles that went all the way back to the 40's war
effort.

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Aeolun
Pot, meet kettle.

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nodesocket
While it's not going to a be a popular oppinion, I do have first hand
knowledge and experience and agree. As somebody who lived in SF for over five
years, the last couple of years especially there is a palatable distain for
Americanism and patriotism at bay area companies. I'd even go as far as some
people are flat out anti-American. There is an anti-authority ideology that
permeates everything and a persistent skepticism.

~~~
dmode
I feel nationalism and patriotism are dangerous concepts that need to be
challenged. We should be looking to form an inclusive global community that
can progress together instead of boxing ourselves into arbitrarily drawn man
made lines which we are thrown into by luck of birth. Not that I don't believe
in nation status. But I never understood why should I like a person who falls
on one side of that line more than a person on another side of that arbitrary
line.

As for being anti-American, I guess it depends on which America. Is it the one
that professes the values of democracy and progress, leads in sciences and
exploration, welcomes everyone with open arms ? I love that America. Or is it
the America of wealth inequality, foreign wars, and global geopolitics. Not a
fan of that America.

~~~
bassman9000
_We should be looking to form an inclusive global community that can progress
together instead of boxing ourselves into arbitrarily drawn man made lines
which we are thrown into by luck of birth._

How willing is the average russian citizen to do so, given its government
stance? The chinese one? The iranian one?

It's nice to have those sentiments when you can afford to have them. How are
SV companies going to force that to happen in the aforementioned, and other
countries?

Until we're ready to speak as equals, _si vis pacem, para bellum_. Without
actually getting into conflicts, the US should be ready to win them all.
Thinking otherwise is naively dangerous. And the late position of some SV
firms and their employees is borderline 5th columnist.

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dmode
This reads like an Onion headline

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KaiserPro
what did the moral vacuum say to arses at silicon valley? "you're a sellout"

------
writepub
Google's initial investors included the CIA (InQTel). The internet itself was
a defense (DARPA) project. The Bell Labs work on the transistor emerged from
war-time efforts to produce extremely pure germanium "crystal" mixer diodes,
used in radar units.

I can go on and on about the inventions spawned by defense funding. Silicon
valley itself owes its existence to Northrop Grumman and their ilk, who were
early tech employers seeding Intel, Xerox, HP, Apple, with crucial tech
talent.

Today's tech aversion to defense agencies is one of the most paradoxical
philosophies to ever exist. Instead of demanding more accountability from
defense agencies, they outright refuse to sell/engage with the very people
providing national security, and hence allowing a civilized society with a
stable government to exist.

~~~
skybrian
There are certainly many people who work for defense contractors and they are
necessary. But, other people don't want to do that. If they join a company
that's not a defense contractor, and it becomes a defense contractor, it feels
like a bait-and-switch. That's not what they signed up for.

And it does seem like, in a large industry with many different kinds of jobs
that need to be done, it's clearly not necessary for everyone to work in
defense.

On the other hand, the funny thing about large companies is that they do many
things, but by reputation they're treated as a single entity. So you get into
a somewhat weird situation where people care what some distant part of the
company does that has almost nothing to do with their work day-to-day.

I'm reminded of Paul Graham's classic essay, "Keep Your Identity Small" [1].
If you join a large company and identify with it, this is making your identity
larger than it probably should be.

For better or worse, many employees of these companies feel responsible for
things they have little control over. They feel good when the company does
something good and bad when the company does something they don't like. So
they decide the problem is that they need to have more control and this
results in a rather problematic kind of company politics.

[1]
[http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html)

~~~
writepub
There's no bait and switch anywhere. Employment is primarily at-will, and
anyone can walk out anytime.

Also, companies have certain identities in certain time-windows. Apple was a
computer company in the late 90s, by late 2000s it had already gone through 2
identities: a music player company, to primarily a phone company.

Employers cannot guarantee what work and markets they will and won't chase.
Being a cloud infrastructure and AI company, it's predictable for Google to
decide to go after one of the largest spenders in the space, defense.

~~~
xiphias2
If you listened to the TGIFs made by Eric Schmidt 12 years ago, it was totally
different. It looked like there's enough opportunities to make a lot of money
without going to the war industry (I can't call defence what the U.S. is
doing). What do you think ,,Don't be evil'' means?

We (non-Americans) were all writing code and staying at Google in the late
evenings, sometimes working on weekends because we really though that Google
is different.

Of course when 2008 happened, a lot of things changed, the optimism changed to
being cautious and more frugal, which everybody understood.

Since then Google changed it's motto, but the code and the network effect
stayed with it.

~~~
writepub
> We (non-Americans) were all writing code and staying at Google in the late
> evenings

You weren't really doing Google a favor, they were paying you well above
market for your work. The fact that your nationality is a point for you to
highlight is indicative of your warped expectations. You chose to move to
America, no one forced it on you. And you chose to work for Google. If America
welcomed you, allowed you to freely express yourself and thrive
professionally, WHY is liking America, or supporting the defense establishment
that protects your civil liberties and safety, and creates a stable socio-
political environment for YOU and million others who immigrate and live here,
such a toxic thing?

America is the world's most sought after immigration destination for a reason,
it's OK to acknowledge the positives, and like it for the same

~~~
xiphias2
Actually no, I didn't work in America, I worked in Switzerland, and worked for
Google Switzerland, not that it matters. I was thinking of moving to US before
I knew how much less people are payed there generally compared to Zurich, and
how hard life is there compared to Switzerland in reality (it's very different
compared to what I saw in American movies, but maybe that was my naivity :) ).

US ,,defense'' department is killing a lot of people that have done nothing
bad. It didn't kill people in my country (I'm lucky that my country joined the
EU), but it could have.

I'm generally against killing people, but I understand that it's part of the
power play governments are doing. Still, I don't want to help it.

About the pay: yes, you're right, they payed a lot. When I joined Google the
first time in my life, I loved it so much, I would have worked for free, just
to be able to read the design docs that weren't available back then, and learn
from great people.

~~~
writepub
How do you feel about Switzerland? Would you refer to Swiss patriotism as
toxic? I wouldn't!

Switzerland, the country that made it possible for Nazis to store their wealth
in numbered accounts, and still holds the largest reserve of illegal wealth of
other nation's dictators and despots, that actively chooses to enable money
laundering and refuses to take political sides because of danger of losing
illegally stored wealth in numbered accounts to other tax havens!

Despite this seemingly evil characterization, if I were Swiss, I'd take GREAT
pride in all the positives of Switzerland! Patriotism, in itself, isn't toxic!
Also, reducing complex issues to single punch-line friendly lies, like America
Defense == Evil, is futile. Watch how Switzerland can be reduced to
Switzerland===Safe Haven For Nazi Gold! Which is false.

~~~
xiphias2
Storing the Nazi gold was very bad, I agree. But many things that you are
refering to as money laundering are just individual privacy rights strongly
protected by the constitution that take priority over government needs (which
I view as a great thing).

Tax heaven: as I see taxes as generally not that well used, I'm happy that
Switzerland's goal is not just simply to maximize taxes that it take from
other people.

~~~
writepub
There's a trend here: you claim moral authority to defend unscrupulous aspects
of your government/country, but don't extend the same privilege to, say the
American defense agencies, or Google, who'd like to do business with them.

It's trivial to go on a diatribe here about Swiss numbered accounts being
bathed in the blood of innocents, on whose heads murderers, despots, dictators
accrued the said wealth, now being actively protected by the Swiss government
under the guise of privacy. But that would be a simplistic, inaccurate, and
narrative driven approach. Your demonetization of American foreign policy is
similarly simplistic, and demanding that Google not serve American defense,
similarly silly.

All that is being requested here is consistency, not simplistic and inaccurate
reduction-ism. It's disingenuous to reduce Switzerland to a singular identity
of "murder enablers", as it is with America, or it's foreign policy

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d--b
Theses guys have no shame.

Thiel is notoriously libertarian. He’s advocating for smaller and smaller
government. Yet, the company he founded makes money by selling surveillance
software to the government. Surveillance software that has some good use cases
- in the fight against terrorism - but that inevitably empowers the government
against its citizen.

Palantir can be used to track terrorist, but it can be used to find anything.
Political agitators, for instance.

In the wrong hands, it’s a tool that is damaging to the American “social
contract” these guys are so vehemently defending.

If anyone at Palantir reads this: get your story straight. Be libertarians or
pro government. If your pro government, stop financing political parties that
cut massive tax breaks.

~~~
xiphias2
Thiel doesn't have a moral high ground. Just look at how much he talks about
the importance of making a monopoly for creating money. I respect him for not
saying that he's making the world (or especially U.S.) a better place by going
for government contracts.

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pvarangot
He's basically gatekeeping being "weird"? I can't believe a guy that had a
LOTR themed office going now says one needs an excuse to do it, I'm not going
to ask society permission to be myself if just want to be goofy and nerdy.

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leroy_masochist
Biggest takeaway I got from the video was how hard Karp was trying to push the
concept that Palantir is a product, rather than a service business.

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adamnemecek
He of all people has very little moral high ground for statements like this.

~~~
taneq
Or his yardstick just points in a drastically different direction than yours
or mine.

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gammateam
ITT: he’s not wrong just the wrong person to say it

~~~
ionised
No, he's definitely wrong.

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scrame
irony.

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ionised
It's an important distinction that he makes when he says Silicon Valley is
selling out America™, as opposed to the American people, which Palantir has
sold out.

