
Madness of Geo-Blocking (Hidden Camera Prank) - nxzero
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WbiacSD13qk
======
ryandrake
I'm surprised at the amount of hair-splitting, pedantry, and rationalization
posted in the comments so far. The overall point of the video, which people
must be intentionally missing, is that it's ridiculous to bring up a
customer's nationality (or place of residence) in order to complete a
purchase. This is illustrated by presenting obviously ridiculous, but
comparable, situations in an offline context. Whether this ridiculous behavior
is the result of a law or a company's deliberate decision, it's still
ridiculous.

~~~
kleiba
But doesn't that have to do with different countries having different
regulations and laws? I mean, I don't really know anything about the thought
train behind geo blocking, but that would be my first guess?!

This is probably only marginally related, but just the other day I had a
conversation with a coworker from Morocco. We were talking about the fact that
in his country, _every_ purchase you make involves bargaining. That makes me
think now that what we in the Western world have come to think of as the norm
-- fixed prices on products, being the same for every customer -- is probably
a fairly recent phenomenon if we consider the history of mankind. And if I
think about products like airline tickets, that principle is not even true in
our culture: you may have to pay vastly different prices for the same product,
i.e., for a seat on the same flight.

Now, my next sentence was going to be "... but at least the different in price
is not because your nationality is being discriminated against", but now I'm
actually not so sure any more that that is true?! I mean, I guess no-one who's
in the air fare business made a business decision along the lines of "let's
charge Germans 20% more" or so, but if factors like your locations (and hence
with a high probability also your nationality) are factors in the data mining
which is the basis for what determines the price of a ticket, isn't that de
facto an implementation of discrimination in a sense?

And how about the pharma industry? The same medication can sometimes cost
orders of magnitude more depending on what country it is sold in (think
Africa).

So coming to think of it, I think at least in the globalized world, different
selling conditions depending on the geographical location are actually not
that rare, even for non-digital product. Minimally, wouldn't all produces that
target large markets at least adjust for things like average income /
purchasing power in the respective regions?

~~~
belorn
When a purchase happens in a physical store, there are possibly three
different countries involved. The location of the store (1), the citizenships
of the seller (2), and the citizenships of the buyer (3).

Normally, we only care about the first country, and the seller and buyer can
be anyone from anywhere. With stores on the Internet, we have a different
deal. Prices are set based on the buyer's citizenship, regulation and taxes is
based on the country of the server, and prosecution of crimes is based on the
country of the seller.

For those stores that enforce geo blocking, I only have one question: Which
customer protection laws should govern the purchase?

------
jonahx
I'm confused about the point being made. If you purchase something online
across national boundaries, isn't the company you're buying from subject to
different taxes and tariffs than when customers from their own country buy?
And in the case of Netflix, don't they have to negotiate different contracts
with content owners to sell in different countries? It's not like they're just
doing it to be dicks.

Or am I missing something?

~~~
shmerl
_> It's not like they're just doing it to be dicks._

Whether they intended it or not, what they are doing is xenophobic.

~~~
intrasight
Would you say otherwise if "they" where actually separate companies? ie,
Netflix US, Netflix CN, Netflix FR

~~~
shmerl
What difference would it make? I.e. imagine there is Netflix FR, and someone
from US tries to access it through VPN, and they get a message _" US citizens
won't be served"_. Or the other way around. Same xenophobic garbage IMHO.

~~~
ryan-c
Netflix is contractually required to discriminate against customers based on
where they are by the companies who they licence content from, for many
reasons, a common one being the content already having been exclusively
licensed for distribution in country X to some other company.

Calling this xenophobia is absurd.

~~~
shmerl
If Netflix is contractually obligated to be xenophobic, it's both their fault
for accepting such contracts and fault of those who made such contracts with
them (i.e. publishers / content owners). The fact that it's a contract doesn't
make it any more moral and it's absurd to think it's an excuse.

You can blame the system all you want, but if they participate - they are part
of the system. I.e. they aren't forced to make such moral choice, they
voluntarily make it.

~~~
intrasight
The term "xenophobic" just isn't applicable here. Almost all media deals are
location-based. I expect that Netflix tries harder than anyone else to try to
break down those license barriers.

~~~
shmerl
_> Almost all media deals are location-based._

So? How does it justify xenophobic behavior?

~~~
intrasight
Perhaps you should try looking up the definition of "xenophobic"

~~~
shmerl
Perhaps you shouldn't try excusing such behavior with definition arguments? If
you don't like the term xenophobic (which is perfectly appropriate here), call
it discrimination of foreigners. It doesn't make it any better and less
disgusting.

------
jkot
This is bad example. Shop refused to sell based on nationality, not based on
location. You can still watch Netflix if you are Chinese living in US.

But on second though that shop was geoblocking the entire world except tiny
room. One has to buy at their place and there is no free world wide delivery
service.

~~~
shmerl
See below:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11514827](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11514827)

It's close enough. Netflix refuses to sell you anything when you access it
through VPN.

------
nxzero
To be xenophobic means someone has a fear/hatred of strangers/foreigners.

Racism is prejudice or hostility towards a person's race, colour, language,
nationality, or national/ethnic origin.

Access to the Internet is a basic human right - and to block access to the
Internet based on nationality is xenophobic and racist.

Blocking Internet access based on nationality is toxic - and should not be
tolerated in any form.

------
willvarfar
In the physical shop, the purchase happens in country the shop is in. The
taxes paid should be those taxes paid by shops in that country.

But what country does an online purchase happen in, and which country gets the
tax money?

The company can register in a tax haven, or host servers abroad etc.

The customer can connect via a proxy etc.

------
Theodores
This would have been better if it was a CD/vinyl+DVD selling shop, not a
coffee shop.

With real world online retail there are many reasons for not delivering goods
to certain regions of the world, inability to work with a good courier for the
final miles being one of them.

~~~
shmerl
_> This would have been better if it was a CD/vinyl+DVD selling shop, not a
coffee shop._

Yep, or a bookstore. Since the source of the underlying mess is related to
copyright.

------
shmerl
Exactly. Geoblocking is xenophobic. And the issue is not limited to EU.

Better analogy would be a book store. Imagine, you want to buy a book that's
not available in your country. You can travel to the country where it's
available and buy the book there.

In the digital space, the analogy of travel would be using a VPN to bypass
geoblocking. That's why using the VPN for that purpose should be perfectly
legal, and those who try to forbid it (Netflix and Co.) are xenophobes (it
would be like refusing to sell a book to a foreigner which comes to a store in
another country).

The problem of course is that as usual, some try to translate realities of the
physical space (with regional market segmentation) to the digital ones, where
they don't make any sense. But they are eager to do it when is suites their
interests (geoblocking). But when people use the same invalid translation, and
virtually travel to bypass geoblocking (VPN), geoblocking proponents whine and
want to declare it illegal. Hypocrites.

~~~
kyberias
You know words have specific meanings. Like xenophobia:

"fear and hatred of strangers or foreigners or of anything that is strange or
foreign"

I'm pretty sure these companies don't hate the foreigners or fear them.

Please find more suitable words to express your opinions.

~~~
shmerl
_> I'm pretty sure these companies don't hate the foreigners or fear them._

Forbidding selling merchandise to foreigners who come to your store based on
the fact that they are foreigners is xenophobic. But if you have a better term
for it, please describe it another way.

~~~
vinceguidry
A phobia is an irrational fear of a particular thing. Xenophobia is fear of
outsiders. Refusing to sell to them is not fear of them, it's fear of the
consequences of not following the law. Which is a rational fear rather than an
irrational one.

So the charge of xenophobia is wrong on both aspects of the definition that
matter.

But by all means, reiterate your loaded terminology.

~~~
shmerl
_> Refusing to sell to them is not fear of them, it's fear of the consequences
of not following the law. _

Except there is no such law (unless we are talking about some xenophobic
country, Third Reich style). Rather than any laws, they fear that their crazy
partners will pull a plug on them. And they are being xenophobic to oblige
their insane content overlords. Their exact intentions don't matter however
for the end user who is being discriminated. What matters are their actions.

~~~
vinceguidry
> Rather than any laws, they fear that their crazy partners will pull a plug
> on them. And they are being xenophobic to oblige their insane content
> overlords.

Neither of which is an irrational fear of outsiders.

I agree it's a shitty situation, but you're not going to get anywhere by
demonizing merchants. We need to change the system they exist in.

~~~
shmerl
_> Neither of which is an irrational fear of outsiders._

That's what it ends up being in their actions towards the user.

 _> but you're not going to get anywhere by demonizing merchants. We need to
change the system they exist in._

I agree that system is wrong. But merchants can't use it as an excuse. They
are part of the system and they contribute to the problem.

