

Ask HN: Technomading? - noodle

a now dead submission from earlier today inspired me to ask about this.<p>its been a personal goal of mine for a while to be able to do this before i would want/need to settle down:  setting things up in my life in such a way that i can grab a laptop and travel the world.  travel to a new country, stop for a while, see and do things, and pop open the laptop to do enough work to fund the traveling.<p>the intent would be to stay in one place for longer periods (months, depending on the visa) so that work would be less random and so that i could properly experience the new location's culture, atmosphere, etc..  the intent would also be to aim for the more inexpensive places so that i wouldn't necessarily have to work 40/wk to get by.  kind of like where the hell is matt (http://www.wherethehellismatt.com/) except less dancing (also, i had this idea in my head way before i ever saw matt's stuff).<p>we're a community of smart people who like to solve problems.  so, i imagine someone else has gone down this road.  i was just curious about this, since i've done a lot of thinking (read: daydreaming) about it myself lately.
anyone have any thoughts/experiences/resources/insights/etc.?
======
kareemm
I am living this life right now. Lived (mostly) in Vancouver and Buenos Aires
last year (with 1 month stops in LA, NY, and Toronto, and purely fun travel to
Antarctica, Ireland and South Africa).

In 09 I've been to India (vacation), London (worked), Vancouver (worked), and
I'm currently in Italy (both vaca + work). Heading to Budapest in two days to
rent a place for 3m.

The most common question I've gotten is how to fund this. I've funded this
with consulting gigs and living in cheap-ish places - living in Buenos Aires,
for example, is a great way to bootstrap a startup. Building a more scalable
biz to do this - consulting is a fine way to make a living, but a terrible way
to build wealth.

It's great to see the world and get a better sense of the nuances of a culture
than a hit-and-run trip. But it's not without its challenges. Off the top of
my head, here are three:

\- the biggest (for me) being balancing the desire to explore a new city with
work

\- A close runner up (believe it or not) is finding good broadband

\- Building a community where you move to is often tough, though meeting
people through couchsurfing.com has been awesome

If you have specific questions, please fire away here. I'm also going to teach
a free class on www.edufire.com about this soon and I'll drop you an email
about it if you email me directly (blog at reemer dot com).

There's more about how to live the technomad life in this interview I did:
<http://mixergy.com/business-nomad/>

And on my blog (too busy bootstrapping to update since Feb, but some info
there): <http://howsthewifi.com>

EDIT: An afterthought - whatever you do, _don't_ let someone else tell you
it's not possible or there's a better way to do it. Figure it what you want,
then explore your options yourself (learning from people who've done it).

The benefits of living like this will do two things - build your self-
awareness and build your confidence in yourself. It's close to the best way
I've found to take responsibility for my life - I'm eating what I kill and
living in cities where I know nobody and don't speak the language. You'll
learn a hell of a lot about what you're capable of and that's the best damn
part imho.

~~~
randallsquared
_A close runner up (believe it or not) is finding good broadband_

I totally believe it. My ex-wife and I did a few years of nomading (just in
North America and the Caribbean) in the first half of this decade, and finding
internet connectivity was absolutely the most difficult thing about it. I
imagine it's actually considerably easier, now.

~~~
noodle
what about options like the verizon global broadband satellite service? or
similar things? are there any globally-available reasonably-priced global
mobile broadband solutoins? tethering? etc.?

~~~
chops
I've briefly looked up mobile satellite internet, and the cost is extremely
restrictive: starting at like $600/month for a few hundred megs of transfer.
This was for the ultra-portable satellite setups (the kinda thing you can
throw in a backpack or a laptop case).

------
pg
Once between YC cycles Jessica and I lived in Paris for a month, and I spent
the time writing software for YC. (I wrote the code we use to generate funding
documents.) I rented a separate studio as an office and went there every day
to work. It is kind of cool to work in a place instead of just being a
tourist. But I found I missed the hacking community somewhat.

~~~
bayareaguy
_I wrote the code we use to generate funding documents._

Did you use arc? If not, why not? If so how does it compare to HN in terms of
complexity?

Did you learn anything worthwhile?

~~~
pg
Yes.

    
    
        > (/ (codetree "docs.arc") (codetree "news.arc"))
        1399/6586
    

I learned it's hard to write document management systems.

------
dataman85
The good thing is you will need to make comparatively very little amount of
money. If you can make around $25K/year you can live very well in S & SE Asia,
parts of S. America and I would guess Africa.

If you work as a freelance developer, and have already established a good
network, it is fairly easy to lead this kind of life. Working remotely is very
common, and if the client knows you are good, he would not care where in the
world you are. But if you don't have an established network, it is harder to
find work while you are on the road.

Starting your business is also claimed as a possibility. But I personally have
not come across anybody running a successful business and spending a lot of
time on the road. But I am sure some people pull it off, a la Tim Ferriss.

Oh, and teaching English. Great way to see the world, and money is good in
places like Japan, Korea and increasingly China.

Even if you cannot figure out a way to work from the road, just save some
money and get going. It _really_ requires very little money, e.g. you can
explore the whole of SE Asia for about $1K/month.

Good luck!

~~~
vijayr
To teach English, you should know another language too, isn't it?

It is very much possible to live in places like SE Asia for $1k per month (I'm
from India, it wouldn't take even $1k, especially if you are single)

~~~
kirse
_To teach English, you should know another language too, isn't it?_

Nope. In fact if you are the stereotypical American with no accent, speak
great English and know none of the foreign language you are usually far better
off because they only want you speaking in English and teaching in English.

Not to mention the better schools get to have their American "poster boy" so
they can show they've got quality English teachers in their school.

(This is at least what I gathered from a number of teachers over in Taiwan
when I considered doing it).

~~~
fluffster
_the stereotypical American with no accent_

:D

------
HeyLaughingBoy
Yes: do it.

You'll probably read lots about people doing global consulting, or working
remotely to pay for it, planning for months, getting travelogues, etc...

But most people who have done this over the years didn't have that luxury and
haven't let it stop them. They got passports, visas, saved some cash...and
then just walked out the front door. Really. The hardest part in something
like this is most likely that first step you take.

So stop thinking, dreaming, etc and just go. Even if you stay within this
country for a few months first. Just Go.

------
menloparkbum
I've done this to some degree. My suggestion would be to build a product that
throws off income rather than try to support yourself through remote contract
work. A desktop app, iPhone app, subscription web app, or even ad supported
web app. This will probably make your life better even if you aren't
traveling.

~~~
webwright
+1. Consulting requires a sales pipeline. If you have a good network, that
might fill the pipeline for you... You certainly don't want to be competing on
oDesk and the like from abroad.

------
rdl
The way I've been doing something similar is to take deployed defense
contracts which last 3-9 months at a time (Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.), and make
enough during that period to live for the rest of the year (and a couple
additional years).

I've also been working on startup projects in my spare time, since I have good
Internet connectivity while doing the day job. The "non-deployed" time can be
spent traveling, or working full-time on any of the startup projects which
have traction -- with the added benefit that I can provide my own financing up
to a series A.

Somehow I get more done on projects in early stages when they're "side
projects", and this way I don't have to worry about my burn rate during early
stages (since it's substantially negative).

There are tax benefits ($91k/yr deduction) for being outside the USA 330
days/yr, so once you've done 200-250 days deployed as a contractor in a year,
it makes sense to spend the balance outside the US as a tourist -- at a high
marginal tax rate that's basically $30k, and I can live comfortably in
Vancouver, Bali, New Zealand, Japan, etc. for a few months on way less than
that.

The #1 thing I've learned is to totally automate my "administrative life" -- I
use a mail-scanning mail forwarder, autopay on all my bills, etc. When you
travel a lot, it's easy to miss a credit card bill, and it can be a black mark
on your credit for 7 years.

The other nice thing is most of these contracts are "go home at night and not
worry about it", vs. normal consulting where you can be called back at any
time to fix something. And, the separation between dayjob and any personal
projects is a lot easier in an admin/ops contract than in a developer dayjob.

------
outscape
I've been doing this for 8 years now. First mostly in south america, then
since 2006 in asia, mostly in China.

The first few years were fine - I enjoyed being in a totally different place.
But eventually I missed having other hackers around. My social life took place
mostly online.

Earlier this year I finally launched

<http://www.cocovivo.com>

So far, experiences from that are: -people differ in so many ways- it's hard
to find a group that works together. -some people take the day-to-day
distractions better than others. Some thrive by being able to got for a swim
whenever they want, some get restless and can't get work done -our location
may be a bit too extreme (we're off the grid on an island in the caribbean,
solar + long distance wifi link from town)

Connectivity has improved a lot.. When I started in 2001, writing web apps in
Java, my makefile included a target for copying the code to a floppy disk, and
adding pscp.exe a .bat file to upload everything to the server so my client
could test it. Bugs would come in the form of long emails.

Definitely much better now... ssh is sometimes a problem, but now even getting
through the Great Firewall of China with ssh is alright.

Overall, I can really recommend trying this out. I'd very much like to
contribute my thoughts and experiences to someone willing to build a community
around this... I'm not enough of a community builder and too busy with work to
do this by myself. Contact me (rick@outscape.net) if interested!

------
varenc
I would love to do this as well. I think the real challenge is finding a
source of income you can do 20 hours a week over the internet that can still
support you.

Some useful links on the subject: <http://locationindependent.com/>
<http://www.workingnomad.com/> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technomad>

------
zzzmarcus
I did this for over a year with my wife and kid. I originally planned on
quitting my job as a government contract and doing only freelance, but instead
ended up working things out so I could work remotely ~4-6 hours a day. It was
nice having a fixed schedule and fixed paycheck and it left my mind free to
enjoy Uruguay, Brazil and Argentina.

I can't recommend it highly enough, it was surprisingly easy to do and
definitely one of the best years of my life.

------
gmcerveny
Through independent contracting it's easy enough to just take 3 months off and
travel off savings.

I've also had contracts that were almost exclusively remote work. I would
check-in first and say "hey, are you going to need me in any meetings in the
next 30 days, because I'm thinking of to [blank_city] for a bit."

They were always cool with it.

------
fredBuddemeyer
your dream is a good one. believe it or not your best route to a sustainable
version of this is a startup. why? \- you need to love something in order to
be dedicated to it wherever and whenever (its mostly about time zones). \- you
want something where effort=return and bullshit = zero.

no matter what path you take to achieve this kind of freedom balance will be
required. in the case of your own business you will need to spend lots of in
person time with your partners and have great discipline with communications.
if you don't have pre-existing relationships of several years that's how long
will it take to get started. at least it has in my case. the payoff has been
huge; its lead to a company where everyone lives and travels entirely as they
want. good luck

------
il
Read 4 hour workweek if you haven't already, it describes this exact
lifestyle.

As for funding the lifestyle, check out affiliate marketing, it's a great
business. I'm now at the point where I have enough campaigns(and SEO traffic)
running on autopilot where I only have to work 1-2 hours a day online to
maintain an income in the low six figures. I've been thinking of doing the
travel thing myself. I'm at the point now with my work where I can work from
anywhere in the world(or an internet cafe), or even not work at all and still
generate decent revenue, I think traveling the world while I'm young and free
from commitment is a great idea. For cheap travel destinations with good
Internet I've heard good things about S.E Asia, especially Thailand.

------
gexla
As I mentioned in another thread, I'm a U.S. citizen doing web dev in the
Philippines. I would like to start checking out other places soon but for
right now I'm still trying to get used to my first move to a new country.

There are a ton of people doing this and writing about it, so just do a search
on the net. Make a list of places you would like to go and do the research on
each place.

Considerations, especially for starting out, is visa, language,
infrastructure, cost of living and other items.

For example, the Philippines has an easy visa where you only have to do visa
runs once every 16 months. English is spoken nearly everywhere which isn't a
small village off the beaten path. The infrastructure is not the best in some
areas. I have to deal with a lot of brownouts and the internet has it's issues
sometimes as well. Thailand is probably just a little more expensive than the
Philippines but has better infrastructure. You don't want to be in the middle
of a project and then have the power go out, but it happens.

I generally keep pretty busy as a contractor but I know developers here who
will do a 3K site and then take the next couple of months off.

Ultimately, if you have an income and a bit of savings it's pretty easy. Just
make sure you have enough savings to get you through a six month dry period
and then enough extra to buy the next flight out of the country in case you
need to leave in a hurry. Take a month or so break from work so that you have
plenty of time to focus on getting settled in your new destination, especially
if it's your first move. After that, perhaps you can get up to speed faster
with future moves.

------
ctb9
here are two decent blogs to check out. also, the main point from The Four
Hour Work Week on the subject seems important: automation needs to be built
into your venture from the beginning.

[http://locationindependent.com/blog/2008/10/23/6-things-
you-...](http://locationindependent.com/blog/2008/10/23/6-things-you-must-do-
before-you-leave-the-rat-race-set-up-your-own-business-and-become-location-
independent/)

[http://thegrowinglife.com/2008/03/lifestyle-design-
and-4-hou...](http://thegrowinglife.com/2008/03/lifestyle-design-and-4-hour-
work-week-resources/)

------
cglee
I worked from Beijing during the Olympics last year for 3 months. The hardest
part of the setup was securing an apartment on a short term lease with
broadband from a few thousand miles away. I had to hire a guy that went from
apt to apt then uploaded pictures to me at night. You definitely want to see
pictures. I also had no clue where the "hip" parts of the city were, so I
spent many hours just talking about the various Beijing neighborhoods and
prices. Then we had to negotiate a short term lease, and pray that the
landlord would honor that when I arrived.

It all went rather smoothly (it helps that I speak Mandarin and knew some
trusty locals).

But while I was there, I kept thinking how difficult it would be for someone
who didn't know anyone in Beijing and who didn't speak Mandarin to set this
up. And what if I wanted to do something like this in, say, Cairo? It'd be
very difficult.

I think setting up apartments around the world for technomads would be a great
business idea. All that'd be required would be a clean place with broadband,
hot shower and a bonus would be a nearby co-working space for local or expat
geeks.

------
themetalface
I have shared this dream at various points in my day-to-day grind...I think
online poker would be one fairy reasonable approach. Depending on skill level,
one could make a fairly good living grinding it out for (insert reasonable
time here) a day. Just a thought, I think it could be a hard way to make an
easy living.

~~~
kareemm
I know a bunch of guys straight out of college who do this, quite
successfully. There are a lot of degenerates in the online poker scene, but
these kids all have their heads screwed on straight and are using poker as a
means to travel and live around the world.

One of my favorite stories was when I was at a cafe in Buenos Aires working
for an afternoon with these guys. After about 5h we decided to adjourn to a
bar, adn I was chatting with one of the poker players (who's 25):

Me: "How'd it go today John?"

John: "Not bad, I'm up 15k today."

Me: ?!?!.... OMG!

J: "Yeah, it was a good day. But there are some days when I lose 13k."

Dealing with the emotional swings would be the toughest part of playing poker
online, according to these guys.

~~~
themetalface
Exactly. I have experienced this first-hand, and my swings are much smaller
than that. The thing is, anything worth a spit is going to be hard; there are
swings in "regular" professions as well. Learning to deal with them is part of
growing as a professional, in my opinion. I think that there are many life
lessons to be learned at the table, virtual or felt, and mental toughness is
one that can be extremely beneficial to someone traveling the globe. There
isn't a swing out there a pint or four can't cure!

------
vijayr
Also check out <http://soultravelers3.com/>

They're a family of three (hubby, wife and a kid) working and traveling, all
over the world. They're blogging their experience. Exactly the same as you
say, except you're probably much younger than the couple.

~~~
whacked_new
In some ways I feel bad for the kid. A typical symptom of a third culture kid
is lack of the feeling of "home" anywhere. This kid will be a TCK to the
extreme.

------
utku_karatas
I wonder if a tech-nomad version of couchsurfing would work out or not as a
new kind of community.

~~~
toisanji
cool idea

------
drinian
Yes, in fact the beginnings of a trip were organized through Hacker News a few
months ago: <http://coworkthailand.com/>

I think these specific plans fell through, but I am planning something
similar. Also, there's a commune of people doing this at
<http://www.cocovivo.com/>

------
thekevinscott
wow I have been thinking _exactly_ the same thing. Kudos to you!

Over the past few months I've been aggressively trying to pick up freelance
work on top of my day job, and it's paying off. I'm getting close to the point
where I think I can adequately finance myself.

I don't think there's any reason to be tethered to a place if you don't want
to be.

Anyone know of good spots to go as a hacker guy? I'm from the Northeast so I'm
thinking of hitting Austin first off the bat and explore the US, but where
else in the world would be a good place to live for a few months?

------
hardik
i have a similar goal.. i have a number in mind, once i make that much i plan
to stop working for money

------
TriinT
I used to nurture that dream as well. Now that I am older and wiser, I think
it's a fantasy.

I honestly think it would be better to get 6-month or 9-month contract jobs,
work like hell during that time, and then take some months off to see the
world. And don't take your laptop with you ;-)

I have a bunch of Norwegian friends who did this. They would work March-
September in Norway, when the weather isn't so bad, and then they would spend
the winter months in Thailand, Bali, etc. I think this is the optimal scenario
because work is separated from travel. When you're working, you are just
working. When you're traveling, you're free to enjoy the places you visit and
don't have to worry about deadlines, internet outages, etc

~~~
noodle
i agree that this is probably easier and accomplishes a similar goal, its not
quite the same and not quite what i'd like to end up doing. may end up having
to wander down this path though, as a compromise.

i think the underlying concept behind what i'd like to accomplish is the
aspect of freedom associated with it. doing a constant cycle of hard work and
then vacation doesn't quite have as much of that freedom to it.

beyond that, working a few hours a day and/or being able to work when i'd
prefer to do it would probably leave me more satisfied and productive with the
work i'm doing than if i were chained to a desk slaving away to ensure a few
extra weeks vacation.

~~~
TriinT
The way I see things:

Suppose I want to hire you for a few months. You tell me you will be traveling
in Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos and Thailand for 6 months. You tell me you will
have access to the internet and work while on the move.

I would think you're not committed enough. I would also worry that you may get
your laptop stolen with proprietary data on it while on a bus trip through the
Cambodian jungle. And I am worried that you will have trouble accessing the
internet in some remote locations, which would cause you to miss deadlines. To
cut a long story short, there are too many risks. I would be better off hiring
someone else.

The freedom would be great. Everyone would love to have the freedom to travel
around. That does not mean it's not a fantasy.

Why not travel around and do rentacoder.com programming gigs once in a while?

~~~
noodle
oh, i agree. i don't think that i would be able to procure many longer term
gigs like that, unless i had some special connections. the scheduling alone
would be rough.

i think the ideal solution would be to do something like create my own
subscription-based niche web app that would hopefully garner enough users to
support the process (which i am in fact working on doing now). and then spend
the 'work time' performing maintenance and improving it. and, if extra income
is necessary, procure short-term gigs that i could knock out in days/weeks.

~~~
TriinT
If you're working for yourself, then it could work.

Revenue is just one part of the picture. If you can lower your costs
dramatically, then you don't need much revenue to support your nomadic
lifestyle.

When traveling around Poland, I met a couple of Brits who had moved to Poland
for some months to work on their startups. They did freelance work over the
internet to pay for their expenses. Thing is, living in Poland you bleed off
money a lot slower than you would in London, and you enjoy a much better
lifestyle for the same price.

