

Mormon Missions: Startup Accelerators? - jazzyjazz
http://founderdating.com/the-ultimate-startup-accelerators

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invalidOrTaken
Meh. My creds: I served a mission and am an active member of the LDS church,
so I'm not some bitter exmormon. But the two worlds seem orthogonal to me.
There's a very heavy focus on short-term numbers in most LDS mission
organizations. If anything, an LDS mission probably prepares you for corporate
life or the armed forces better than for a startup. Exception: yes, it does
make for fantastic ticket scalpers, as the article relates.

Also, "accelerator?" An accelerator is something that speeds along an already
existent entity. A mission might be a good _person_ accelerator, but if you're
bringing your company with you on the mission, you're a bad founder _and_ a
bad missionary.

I attribute Utah's startup culture to: the presence of BYU, a bunch of church-
derived networks (I still talk to mission buddies, and did a startup with one
of them), and high pressure on men to be providers.

~~~
brd529
Another active Mormon here. My mission was European, like this guys, which
meant a lot of doors. I'd say your right - for me, this was a great person
accelator, which was the point of his article. Don't think he was implying
that he was working on his startup during the mission.

My mission really taught me what hard work was - to devote 100% of your waking
hours to further a cause you believed in. It turns out that is what it takes
to grow an early startup as well, and my mission prepared me for that.

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saosebastiao
It certainly sounds like the typical MTC propaghanda..."work hard on your
mission and you'll be blessed with financial success and a hot wife".

My own anecdotal evidence is that I have had twice as much financial success,
and an even more amazing marriage since I left the church. And some of the
more faithful mission companions I've had are still waiting around for their
blessings.

There are plenty of person accelerators out there. A mission is a good
experience, but nowhere near as important as you think.

~~~
Osiris
It sounds like you're equating the 'blessings' of mission service to be
'financial success'. It's important to make the distinction between the
spiritual and the temporal. The goals of religion, in generally, are spiritual
in nature; for example, learning charity, compassion, forgiveness, kindness,
and other non-tangible character attributes.

It's possible that in learning these character attributes (such as through
protracted service) can lead to the ability to gain temporal rewards, but it's
not a given, nor is it the goal.

If you recall, in the New Testament Jesus makes it clear that temporal gain is
often a hindrance to improving one's spirituality and character and thus we
should be careful to avoid the pitfalls associated with it, such as pride.

Yes, I served a mission, but the 'blessings' I received from the experience
are personal and spiritual in nature, and not material or temporal.

~~~
saosebastiao
That is fine, and what you say is closer to the official theology of the
church. But church culture, folklore, and action is entirely different. When a
faithful member is wealthy, they are assumed to be faithful, and are more
likely to receive callings of progressively higher importance. If you could
look at the wealth distribution of General Authorities, you would likely find
that it is entirely different from the wealth distribution of the general
church, or even that of the active members of the church. This is pretty well
known (you probably recognize it yourself), even if there isn't any hard data
to prove it...and it ends up being explained as blessings which come from
faithfulness, which strengthens the folklore explanation.

~~~
Osiris
Are you talking about Mormon culture, or Utah culture, because there is a
distinction. For example, Utah's tend to be Republican, but not all Mormons
are.

As far as General Authorities and church leaders, there's a reason for that.
Much of their own living expenses are paid by themselves and not the Church.
Mission Presidents, for example, pay their entire way and have to be able to
go 3 years without working.

In short, that may be the perception that you have based on your upbringing or
experience with certain church members, but shouldn't be extrapolated to the
worldwide Church as a whole.

~~~
gagolfnut
Mission Presidents are reimbursed for ALL of their reasonable and typical
expenses. They don't pay their own way like the missionaries do.

------
phamilton
Another Mormon here, served my mission in Sweden. I don't think the personal
gains are unique to startups. As an engineer, the biggest personal lessons
were about learning to ask the right questions to understand concerns before
responding. That process is identical to gathering customer requirements
before providing a solution. Additionally, with the leadership structure in
place, I had a lot of opportunities to establish a group culture and see the
effect it had on motivation and productivity. Both of these have positively
contributed to my career, in and out of startups.

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ezl
love this.

some of the discussion notes here seem to center on whether the requirements
of serving mormon missions is a driver for entrepreneurship, but i think the
obvious real story here is that 2 years of truly focused, single minded
dedication to a cause is the sort of tenacity that most people in (American)
society never really experience.

Tenacity and focus seem to be huge drivers in startup success.

I don't know about "mission == ultimate startup accelerator" but I'd back the
claim that it's the sort of mental training ground that I don't think much
else in American life stands up against.

~~~
ezl
I'd also love anything other than anecdotal evidence from Mormons that UT or
Mormons produce a disproportionately large number of businesses or
entrepreneurs -- I'll happily bet on CA, NY, and FL for state entrepreneurship
rates.

~~~
saosebastiao
And you would win that bet.

[http://www.kauffman.org/research-and-policy/kiea-
interactive...](http://www.kauffman.org/research-and-policy/kiea-
interactive-2012.aspx)

Edit: I found it interesting that the state of Utah has one of the worst
bankruptcy rates in the nation, while Vermont has one of the lowest...despite
being the second highest in entrepreneurship activity, and being the least
religious to boot.

~~~
ezl
wow cool.

NY was surprisingly low on the entrepreneurship index to me. My guess is:

* really high absolute entrepreneurship activity, but really high population * i'm biased b/c i erroneously think of NYC as New York State

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VaedaStrike
Having served as an LDS/Mormon missionary in San Jose, and being presently
pursuing a path to eventually take my project into the start-up realm it'd be
nice to think that it prepared me, at least in some degree for that.

invalidOrTaken's comments on it preparing for corporate life I think depends
on how a person approaches it.

I think the biggest thing, and this can inoculate for both corporate or start-
up land, is the potential for acclimation to rejection. Getting over rejection
(and staying over it) helps you, I believe, in either start-up or corporate
environment.

Whether it prepares one for corporate or start-up, I believe, leans heavily on
what one sees as progress.

The realization for me that metrics only matter in the aggregate of everyone
together and that one's individual quality of performance on a net whole is
what mattered for that individual's personal accomplishment is something
that's helped me immensely.

I can knock doors 'till the cows come home but if my hearts not in it the
meaningful metrics don't come through, but, on the other hand, if there are
good metrics it can be an indicator of the intensity one is applying and, in
that way, can help one get an external glimpse of commitment.

------
sofal
Missions orient you much more towards multi-level marketing sales, where
you're pushing a one-size-fits-all solution onto everyone you meet using any
tactic that could possibly work. This is a big part of the reason why MLM
companies flourish in Provo. While some of this "tenacity" may work for some
types of startups, I rather think that in a startup you'd want to tailor your
solution to fit people's problems rather than vice versa.

------
Prophasi
I can see it. I've never talked to the Mormons (although I see them biking in
pairs near my office most days), but I've had a number of pleasantly spirited
debates with some Jehovah's Witnesses.

We don't see eye-to-eye on religion, but I admire their persistence and
resilience in plugging away in the heat and cold, day after day, dealing with
an almost certain high level of rejection and, often, hostility.

In my experience they've always remained respectful and polite, too, far
beyond the low threshold most people seem to have. I could see that laying an
excellent foundation for entrepreneurial gusto.

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jtsnow
Here are some other tidbits from missionary life that haven't been mentioned:

\- Mentorship and training offered by relatively successful individuals.

\- Most will have some form of leadership responsibility. Typically can range
from overseeing 4 to 30 individuals.

\- Complete escape from media: no news, music, TV, etc.

\- 2 hours of study daily

\- 30 minutes exercise each morning. (Opportunity exists for longer
recreation/exercise once per week.)

\- Obviously being immersed in a different culture is a unique experience.
Missionaries will talk to anyone willing to have a conversation and work with
local church members. This leads to experiences one wouldn't have even if one
were to move to the same place and get a job.

~~~
gadders
Leaving the religion aside, I think sending any young person from Country A to
Country B during their formative years can only be a good thing, I'd have
thought.

~~~
Osiris
I believe that a big problem we have in the U.S. is that, given the size of
the country, nearly no Americans, let alone teenagers, have any experience
with another culture. In my opinion, this lack of exposure results in
prejudice that is prevalent today, especially coming from the 'conservative'
ideology.

Compare that to Europe where it's a train ride to another country, language,
and culture.

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thetrumanshow
I once had a pastor who was a used-car salesman. It seemed like the worst kind
of conflict-of-interest.

Young pastors, especially in the independent circuit (ie. not a seminary) are
hustlers. They get told "NO!!!" a lot and it makes them very resilient. But, I
don't think it necessarily makes them good salesmen which is what you need to
be in a startup.

The kind of sales that missionaries (and pastors alike) are suited for is the
pushy kind where you force fit your solution on top of any circumstance. The
kind of sales a start-up needs to do (IMO) is the kind where you understand
the businesses problems and provide a solution that meets the business
requirement.

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_greim_
It saddens me that so much human effort and dedication would be wasted trying
to convince more people to become Mormons. I'm glad it at least has a positive
outcome of teaching people dedication. I know a few Evangelical missionaries,
but it seems like a majority of their efforts are in improving peoples' lives,
like building houses, teaching language, etc. I certainly hope Mormon
missionaries do the same. Not saying they don't, it just seems like the
emphasis is on conversion.

~~~
discountgenius
Mormons believe that the fastest and best improvements to the quality of life
of an individual come through conversion to the church. That being said, the
LDS church in general does a lot of humanitarian aid and Mormon missionaries
in particular spend significant chunks of time engaged in charitable service.

Source: I served a mission in NYC and we spent plenty of time at soup
kitchens, food pantries, and just helping out anyone who needed a hand.

Edit: link to humanitarian aid info: [http://mormon.org/values/humanitarian-
aid](http://mormon.org/values/humanitarian-aid)

~~~
chrischen
> Mormons believe that the fastest and best improvements to the quality of
> life of an individual come through conversion to the church.

Why?

~~~
TallGuyShort
I would think it's fairly natural that one's belief in God comes with belief
that obedience to His teachings and commandments would result in the best
outcome. If one believes in Christ, specifically, then it's also natural to
combine this belief with service of all kinds - not just proselyting - as the
GP comment is suggesting should happen.

I volunteer some of my time overseeing LDS missionary efforts in the Bay Area
and they did recently instruct missionaries to step up volunteer efforts in
other charitable organizations, with the specific instruction to not make a
big deal of who they were or to proselyte during service - so as to make it a
sincere effort to improve other people's lives in other ways as well with no
hidden or ulterior motives. That being said, it saddens me when people who
don't believe in God criticize such efforts as an irrational waste of the
human race's resources. You have a right to be atheist, and I would defend
that to any other religious person, but I also have every right to continue to
be a Christian. I recognize that religion has been used as an excuse to
violate the rights of others in the past, but there's no reason why we need to
swing society the other way.

~~~
chrischen
Yes but why not just do good for the sake of good because of a belief that it
will be for the benefit of all, the self included. It gives you something to
believe in without having a "church" to follow and be told what to do from.

That's what has always struck me negatively, at least from Christianity. When
I went to Church, the only reason they told me to follow the commandments or
accept Christ was so that I can go to heaven. They were only trying to appeal
to my inner-selfishness. I've since changed, and simplified that teaching.
Doing good is the natural order and will benefit myself in the long-term for
the least amount of total effort invested. It's as simple as that, and no
lying required (I say lying because none of the Christians could honestly
verify going to heaven, but presented it as if it was basically fact to tons
of young impressionable children).

Many pastors I've met always had amazing stories about how they used to be
really bad, and gave examples of their previous life behaviors. What's funny
is that this did not relate to me at all, as I was never that bad and couldn't
imagine why someone would do those (in my opinion) horrible things. It led me
to believe that Christianity appealed to those who sinned, because it promised
that one thing, forgiveness and salvation, regardless of whether you deserved
it. All you had to say was "I believe..."

Not all atheists lack spirituality, and not all are moral-less. You can
totally believe in a greater cause without having to invent things.

~~~
TallGuyShort
Well I (and probably most Mormons, and IMO the Old and New Testament) would
absolutely agree with you that service out of sincere love for others and a
desire to do good is far more noble than serving with the thought of reward. I
don't believe "all you have to say is I believe", because I think faith is not
faith if you're not willing to back it up with your actions. Likewise, serving
for a reward is better than no service - but it misses the point of actually
becoming a happier, more loving person. I think a person who sincerely
believes in God and believes we are, in any sense, his children, should feel a
natural love towards others and a desire to serve Him and them. I think if a
pastor feels they need to motivate with the thought of reward, they've already
missed out on that very fundamental point. Going to heaven would be nice, but
it shouldn't be the only reason you do good. If it gets you to start serving,
great, but I don't believe anyone's going to heaven who doesn't sincerely love
their fellow man.

The thing is, though, it's not like I invented my beliefs because I needed a
reason to serve - I believe because of (though you may disgaree) rational
reasons and experiences I've had that although I can't reproduce them or
verify them to others, I consider empirical as far as myself is concerned. If
I sincerely believe that to be the truth and a source of great happiness, I
wouldn't call it a waste that I spent 2 years inviting others to try achieve
the same. If they decline, that's fine and I think no less of them, but it's
not like my beliefs are the only reason I have for trying to serve others. I
still serve in other ways and for other reasons - believing in God doesn't
mean I wouldn't try to do good otherwise.

>> Not all atheists lack spirituality, and not all are moral-less. You can
totally believe in a greater cause without having to invent things.

Wholeheartedly agree - I hope I have not implied anything to the contrary.

~~~
chrischen
> Likewise, serving for a reward is better than no service - but it misses the
> point of actually becoming a happier, more loving person.

My point of contention is the belief that tricking people into doing good as
an end that justifies the means is acceptable. I don't believe people should
be tricked into doing good. I don't believe they are even doing good when they
don't fundamentally understand why they should be doing good. What results
from this process is just a bunch of bad and evil people trying to forgive
themselves of their sins. They'll invade the religion, corrupt it, and pretty
soon over time organized religion will just be filled with these types of
people. THAT'S the reason why it's bad to just trick people into doing good.
Your religion will just start attracting these false worshippers, and you end
up with religions filled with hypocrites. Religion is not objective. It is
subjective, so it is very prone to be distorted and bent and shaped to satisfy
the needs of both good and evil people. If you start making compromises and
just get people who want to "serve for a reward," you'll end up slowly
corrupting the religion and letting those evil people infiltrate, shape, and
dominate it. This obviously hasn't just started happening, it's been happening
over centuries. And yes, there ARE actual good Christians, but it's harder to
tell them apart from the corrupted ones. The corrupted ones are the ones the
liberals and the atheists hate, because they are at the forefront of
intolerance, outdated traditionalism, and hypocrisy. They give the GOOD
Christians a bad name. Unfortunately, this easy corruption of religion is
fundamental to the way it operates. If you indiscriminately acquire new
religion members, your religion is prone to infection, like an open wound.
This is why religions who don't go out with a sales force, adding whoever and
whenever they can, are less prone to infection and corruption.

This is why religion that lacks a sales team has more credence because
honestly, a religion that sells itself is more believable as divine and
correct.

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paulhummer
I served a slightly more than two year mission in the West Indies (I asked for
and was given a 6 week "extension"). I am still active, though I often feel
like a square peg in a round hole.

A mission is like college. It is what you make of it. For instance, I was a
missionary with a mission. I didn't work too much with people that wanted to
waste my time. I looked for people that were ready to make life changing
decisions right now. I didn't find "knocking doors"/tracting to be very
effective, and so while I did do it sporadically, I found other ways to meet
people (ways that likely wouldn't work in the US, mind). I never sat still. I
was either out meeting people, teaching them, and finding ways to help them or
I was studying and thinking about better ways to help them.

I'm not sure that really made me founder material, but I did get the reap a
lot of benefits of hard work. This resulted in me working harder to reap more
benefits, and became a positive feedback loop for me.

This is what I have found, ten years later: Mormon missionaries are always two
by two because they _can 't_ be by themselves (with the exception of being in
the toilet). They aren't allowed. And you don't get to pick your "companion".
You are assigned a companion and an area. Sometimes you get jerks. Sometimes
you get people you just don't have anything in common with. And you don't get
to put in a transfer request, or go stay at a friend's house to avoid them.
You're with them. Period. This taught me to deal with people that are
different than me, and not only "get along" with them, but be effective.

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gtani
I was riding in the back of a bus with a few Elders through northern Ecuador
years ago and one of them said "Hey, i have something to show you" and pulled
out a bunch of pictures of... cheeseburgers and fries from TGI Friday's in
Quito, they were "just like you get in Salt Lake!".

This kind of showed the challenges they were having in remote parts of
Ecuador, close to the Colombian border. A couple of them didn't speak Spanish
very well, but they were coping well, in my estimation. So I see the
connection

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ascotan
I actually had a very different situation. I felt knocking on doors was easy
as a missionary and terribly difficult post-mission when I tried doing door-
to-door sales later on. In the end it's where you heart is on whether or not
you're going to be success at what you're doing.

I did however, think that missionary work gives you a certain level of
maturity that most 19-21 year olds lack at that age.

