
Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repair on New MacBook Pros - rodneyrdx
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/yw9qk7/macbook-pro-software-locks-prevent-independent-repair
======
andr
The impact of this will be much bigger outside of the US, as most countries
outside of North America do not have a single Apple Store.

In those countries, usually there is a licensed repair provider, but the
customer experience can be drastically different. In Bulgaria, I've had to
wait of over 3 weeks for a simple in-warranty repair of a MacBook, like a
keyboard replacement.

Using unlicensed repair stores has been the only choice.

Now that this option is gone, it will surely be harder to justify owning a
MacBook as a business device.

~~~
muse900
Totally agree, and the more I think about it, the more I feel that apple
products have started becoming inaccessible to me too.

From what I understand they want to protect their brand by building quality
and repairing with quality as well.

Issue is that they are lacking on employees for what they want to do.

A week ago I was in the apple store in London, a guy next to me bought one of
their new flagships through o2 and the phone's buttons weren't usable, he was
told by o2 he has to wait 3 weeks on a replacement, so he tried his luck by
going to the apple store. He was told that there is nothing they can do and
that he has to do it through o2, which I personally find it appalling, having
paid a big chunk of money and getting a defective product, which is under
warranty and all that and being told that they can't fix it or replace it and
you have to go through the person you bought it from to replace it. I felt
like their service isn't going to do any justice to me if anything is to
happen to my iphone, watch, airpods, macbook.

Not to say that i live in Greece as well where the waiting times to get
something repaired is around 3 weeks as well, I managed to fix my own keyboard
on my mac watching youtube videos and ordering the toolkit from amazon in 2
hours... they wanted 3 weeks, and looking at it, to an experienced engineer
with the right tools would take about 2 mins to fix it.

They need to invest in their repairs worldwide if they want to keep their
customer base imho.

~~~
DubiousPusher
I don't normally give salty replies on HN but I have to say no. This is
incorrect.

> Issue is that they are lacking on employees for what they want to do.

That is not the problem. The problem is many of us do not accept the world in
which everything, down to the hardware we touch is just licensed to us.

Some of us live to hack, crack and diy. We are jealous of the right to repair,
tinker and transform.

~~~
bionoid
> Some of us live to hack, crack and diy. We are jealous of the right to
> repair, tinker and transform.

Completely off topic, but here in Norway we also have a _right to reverse-
engineer software_ if the vendor can't or won't provide what you need to
complete an integration. This has been the case since the 1960s if I remember
correctly, and it's still in there after revising the law this year.

Ref: Åndsverkloven of 2018 §42 [0] (in Norwegian),
[https://lovdata.no/lov/2018-06-15-40/§42](https://lovdata.no/lov/2018-06-15-40/§42)

~~~
nojvek
The way I see it US govt won’t enact a law that makes their big businesses
worse off (at-least) the current ones.

They brag about how well off the top companies are, valued at trillions and
that’s their measuring stick.

But as a consumer, the govt is not for you. If you want repairability, don’t
buy from Apple. There is a reason why Apple as a brand is not popular in
places where they don’t have Apple stores and good support.

------
RileyJames
When I upgraded my MacBook Air, I decided to try switching away from Apple.
Primarily because the new MBP’s & Air’s were expensive, and all the new
feature which made them expensive were things I didn’t want or need. I also
wanted to give Linux another shot.

I went for a Dell XPS, and while there are things I don’t like (primarily
keyboard & trackpad) I’ve got used to them. (Keyboard still shits me).

But, when the motherboard & power adaptor died on me. A dell technician came
to my house the next day, sat at my kitchen table and fixed it on the spot.

After being an Apple customer, my mind was blown!!

They also shipped a new charger. (The tech might have been able to just give
me one, but I think the charger might have died shortly after the repair,
details).

I will probably stay loyal with my iPhone, primarily for iOS (but my 6S serves
me just fine, I have no need to upgrade). But I don’t think I will ever buy
another MacBook.

~~~
foepys
For this reason MacBooks aren't really business devices in my opinion. What
kind of business is okay with the service Apple provides? You have to send one
employee to the Apple Store (if there is even one located near you), maybe get
a replacement device, maybe wait for 2 weeks for it to return? This is so much
more expensive than buying Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc. with on-site support. On top
of that you often get repair manuals for the slightly bulkier models.

~~~
sgt
We mitigate this risk by just having a spare device or spare laptop on
premises. It works and it's cheap. We use tons of Macs in a business setting,
and we're definitely not going back to PC's. The PC's were a nightmare (not in
terms of the hardware, but because of the sofware) from a management and
administration perspective. Primarily because of Windows. Using Macs running
macOS has really been a gamechanger.

~~~
chewyland
As a MacBook owner MacOS feels like abandonware to me.

When I reboot into Bootcamp and Windows 10 I feel like I'm using a machine 10
years in the future.

~~~
zimpenfish
Whereas when I boot my games box into Windows 10 and it sits there saying
"Applying updates" for 45 minutes before rebooting and then thrashing itself
into unusability for another 45-60 minutes doing ... something ... I feel like
I'm being trolled by MS.

~~~
consp
I have the same experience with the force upgrades of OSX (due to xcode).
Download is big, require massive 21G of free space, takes ages to update on
older MBPs, everything gets more sluggish after the update and crashes more
often...

~~~
dep_b
That's just once per year?

Microsoft throws away all of your open work at least every month. NSDocument
alone is 25% of the reason I stay with macOS.

------
dreamcompiler
I just replaced the keyboards in two older (2011 and 2013) long out-of-
warranty MacBook Pros. Both required the complete disassembly of the machine.
One fix cost about $150 in parts and the other was less. If I'd been required
to let Apple do the work, each machine's repair would have cost at least $500,
and that assumes Apple would even have been willing to repair such old
machines.

Apple just gave me yet another reason not to buy a new MBP and to keep milking
my old ones along.

~~~
neuronic
I had a 2013 Samsung ATIV Book and when the keys began to fail, I attempted to
replace the keyboard. This is something that took < 5min on my 2008 HP laptop
but was now impossible, because Samsung decided to glue and mold the keyboard
onto the actual case.

So this isn't a problem limited to Apple, apparently most manufacturers
decided that devices need to be as unfixable as possible.

~~~
tonyedgecombe
More likely they decided devices needed to be as light and cheap to
manufacture as possible and a by-product of that is being unfixable.

~~~
afandian
It might be the result of a compromise but it is still an active choice. I
think it is within the remit of a designer to think how the product will be
serviced.

~~~
dreamcompiler
Some designers maybe. Jony Ive clearly couldn't care less about repairability.

~~~
afandian
If he's selling Apple Care insurance, I bet he does (one way or another)

------
slr555
This is true for farmers in many places who buy or lease machinery from
companies like John Deere. Using IOT, Deere can tell when a non-OEM part has
been installed and they can remotely disable the machine until the "proper"
part has been installed. Their customers are locked into their parts and
service.

~~~
toasterlovin
To be fair, there is a pretty big difference between something like a tractor,
where most of the parts are simply large pieces of machined metal, and
something like a computer where most of the parts are not repairable and, due
to security concerns _which benefit the customer_ , there are things like
secure enclaves which may entail chain of custody concerns to be properly
replaced.

~~~
zaarn
A modern tractor isn't simply a bunch of machined metal, they have several
computers on board, including integrated laptops with vendor branding, to
control various equipment or the engine or many other things. Several of these
parts are not repairable and need to be swapped entirely (if you want a taste
of this; modern car lighting assemblies with LEDs can't have individual
sections replaced, the entire assembly needs to be swapped).

~~~
toasterlovin
What you’re saying is true. What I’m saying is also true. I worked in
construction for a while. The equipment is similar. Most of the repairs are
fixing worn out or broken pieces of machined metal or broken or leaky
hydraulic lines, not electronics.

Phones are different. Usually repairs on a phone involve replacing a piece of
highly integrated electronics, not a work out or broken piece of metal or
plastic.

------
theonemind
These videos created by a third party Apple repair shop convinced me to ditch
Apple:
[https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup/videos?view=0&sor...](https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup/videos?view=0&sort=p&flow=grid)

He goes into the poor practices they use in manufacturing in general that
literally every other manufacturer gets right. They might use under-sized
capacitors to save room on the board. The first "unibody" they advertised had
two aluminum parts glued together. Some of their repairs for recall-level
issues amounted to burning the board, which masks the problem and kicks the
can down the road until your warranty runs out. They actively fight your right
to repair.

I like how their products look and work, but they really make unreliable
products that look and feel premium with substandard engineering, overcharge,
perform shockingly shoddy first party repair and generally try to shift blame
to customers.

So, for the engineering, you'd want to get AppleCare.. a very expensive
extended warranty, on an already overpriced machine, where they will give you
refurbished boards/computers, using their own often highly questionable repair
tactics, like placing rubber over things to push it harder onto the board
instead of re-soldering, or baking the board to mask problems.

~~~
theshrike79
Rossmann is advertising his own repair shop with those videos. And of course
he sees only the bad stuff, since he repairs the broken ones.

MKBHD explains the issue pretty well here:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndphYju6PVM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndphYju6PVM)

tl;dr Apple produces craptons of stuff, if just 0.01% of it fails, it's
thousands of devices - and those users jump to social media to bitch about it,
making it seem like a huge number of devices is affected.

~~~
nasredin
FWIW every single Apple user I know had problems. From the deliberately ill-
engineered flimsy cables to the Apple's BSOD-equivalent.

None of them upgrade their iOS firmware. Even grandmas know not to click
"update".

BTW thanks for the UI dark patterns Apple assholes.

------
Jmcdd
This is a shame and another setback for Macbooks / Macs. I'd agree with
"planned obselescense" over security being the motive as the article pointed
out. This will also not hurt Apple in the slightest, only their consumers who
are blinded by their unwavering loyalty to the brand.

Sent from my iPhone

~~~
jen729w
I’m not “blinded by [my] unwavering loyalty to the brand” but the suggestion
that this sort of thing is going to send me over to Windows or Linux is
ridiculous.

I’m a normal guy who works in IT and does pretty much everything with my MBP.
Work (Citrix, email, Office), play (Logic, Lightroom), development (Sublime,
Chrome, the Terminal) ... I mean come on.

For my “loyalty” to be considered “unwavering” there would have to be a
legitimate alternative that does just what Apple does, but lets me repair my
own [incredibly powerful, thin, built-like-a-slab-of-rock, trivial to keep up-
to-date] laptop. That laptop would have to seamlessly sync my phone and watch,
there would have to be superb Bluetooth in-ear wireless headphones available
for this ecosystem ... it goes on and on. I’m all-in on the Apple ecosystem
for a damned good reason and, while I may not love this approach to repairs,
that does not make me an unwavering loyalist.

Don’t tell me that I can get this all with Linux and a Dell. You know I can’t.

~~~
michaelmrose
Aftershot Pro could replace lightroom, Reaper appears to be suitable for music
production although there are other options. Both run on windows and linux.

Every other laptop maker in existence lets you repair your own machine.

Lenovo and Dell make solid machines that are powerful and light. Microsofts
are even supposed to be pretty good.

The fact that your Apple phone/watch syncs with fewer platforms seems to be a
point against your phone and watch not a point in favor of your mac.

Do you really honestly believe that nobody on earth makes decent bluetooth
headphones except for apple. Seriously BOSE makes bluetooth headphones.

So far legitimate criticisms include your iphone's playlists not syncing with
a different laptop.

Just admit you're a fanboy.

~~~
bigbugbag
I'd mention darktable[1] and bitwig[2], both are cross-platform
linux/win/macos.

[1]: [https://www.darktable.org/](https://www.darktable.org/) [2]:
[https://www.bitwig.com/](https://www.bitwig.com/)

~~~
jen729w
Nothing like a cross-platform app for that real smooth user experience.

~~~
michaelmrose
It's not like java gtk or qt were a thing.

~~~
jen729w
It’s not like they weren’t fucking awful either.

------
tokyodude
I'm actually a little disappointed in Apple's service considering the cost of
their hardware and the cost of AppleCare.

Back in the 80s and 90s many companies excellent service was you'd call
customer support, they'd express ship you a replacement for free and you'd
send back the broken item. They would take your credit card number just in
case you didn't send the broken item back but otherwise it was on their dime.

I had this experience with NEC 21 inch monitors, 2 different video card
companies, and Matrox hard drives as just 4 companies off the top of my head.
Yes, NEC FedExed me 70lbd 21 inch monitors over night. No idea what it cost
them but the monitor cost me around $2500 in 1995, certainly comparible to an
MBP.

Compare to Apple, they were going to service my MacbookPro and I was without
it for 2 weeks. The only reason I was able to get by is I had just bought a
new Windows laptop for VR so I'd have something to use while they serviced the
MBP.

It made me wonder why they couldn't do it the way those other companies did.
Send me the new machine, I'll transfer my data, wipe the old machine, send it
back. Even if my old machine is unusable (and therefore I can't get the data
off) I'd still prefer the instance service I use to get. Just give me a new
machine, factor that into the cost.

The fact that they didn't do as good a job as those other companies was
disappointing.

~~~
lathiat
They generally do a better job if you have a nearby Apple Store (an official
not a third party one). Unfortunately if you don't have one of those you end
up a little worse off.

On the plus side, most brands don't have stores in the majority of non major
cities. Apple Does. So they're ahead of a lot of brands in that regards.

You can get repairs usually done same day or within 1 or 2 days in the worst
case if you can walk into an Apple Store in most cases (with some exceptions
obviously) - for both iPhone and Mac.

EDIT: The comment below points out they only have stores in 22 countries. I
agree in some regards that is low but I would suggest it is probably high
compared to many brands for not requiring a 2 week turnaround as you had
above.

~~~
praseodym
The repair experience for MacBooks (not iOS!) is abysmal, even at Apple
Stores. Whereas other vendors (HP, Dell, Lenovo) will happily send you
customer-replaceable parts (keyboards, disks, etc.) or a technician for on-
site NBD repairs even with their standard warranty plans, Apple requires you
to buy Apple Care (~10% premium) and then you still have to wait for
appointments and repairs at the Genius Bar. This can easily take a week or
two, and they do not provide a loaner devices so you’re without your computer
for the duration of the repair. I’ve been told that there are professional
Apple Care plans that do provide them, but they come at a (even higher) price.

------
dabockster
Can the T2 chip be accessed via a publicly accessible API? Or would some
reverse engineering be required?

Since the third party check is software based, it's theoretically possible to
write a piece of software that could either overwrite the flag on the T2 chip
or man-in-the-middle spoof the return value to relevant applications.

EDIT:

I'm also curious to find out whether it's the OS or EFI that's performing the
check. Because if it's Mac OS, the easy "hack" fix would be to use an
alternate OS such as Windows or Linux that doesn't care about the T2 chip. But
I guess that would defeat the purpose of buying a Macbook Pro in the first
place.

Also, now that I think about it, if the check is in EFI then you're kinda
screwed since you can't really patch it preemptively or man-in-the-middle it
without booting an OS first...

...No wait, that's why projects like rEFInd exist. I guess someone could write
a custom EFI manager that would bypass the check. Just install rEFInd first
before replacing parts.

Seems that this is super hackable and is just a matter of time until we are
able to spoof the flag.

~~~
JonathonW
The check in question is likely happening on the T2 itself; it's a small ARM
processor (derived from the ones used in iOS devices) running its own OS (a
variant of watchOS, which is itself ultimately a derivative of macOS).

Among other things, it's responsible for the early boot process; it performs
firmware and OS verification and can stop the boot process if it thinks things
don't look right.

~~~
dabockster
> it performs firmware and OS verification and can stop the boot process if it
> thinks things don't look right

Well crap. There goes my ideas.

------
thinkling
Back when end users could replace (upgrade) RAM and storage, I cared about
keeping that flexibility. Now those are soldered to the motherboard and
generally non-upgradeable from the start.

This change affects “display assembly, logic board, top case (the keyboard,
touchpad, and internal housing), and Touch ID board”. I could see wanting an
alternate, after-market keyboard, but otherwise am happy to stick with Apple
parts. The main hindrance, as others point out, seems to be for people in
sparser areas with no authorized repair shop.

~~~
Waterluvian
Requiring authorized/first party repair is manifestly bad. Consider what the
automobile landscape would look like if the same were true.

~~~
beamatronic
It’s true for Tesla. Especially for body work. Takes many weeks due to
backlog.

But anecdotally, after many many years of disappointing experiences with
independent repair shops, when I could finally afford repairs at the dealer, I
was no longer disappointed.

~~~
AnthonyMouse
> It’s true for Tesla. Especially for body work. Takes many weeks due to
> backlog.

That's growing pains though. Give it a few years and there should be greater
parts availability and independent electric car repair shops.

> But anecdotally, after many many years of disappointing experiences with
> independent repair shops, when I could finally afford repairs at the dealer,
> I was no longer disappointed.

There are _a lot_ of bad mechanics out there. The trouble is as many of them
work for the dealerships as not, so it's not much of a filter in general. Even
if the quality at dealerships is slightly higher, the _possibility_ of going
to an independent shop is the only thing keeping their prices in check. Or
their service quality for that matter.

You'll find no trouble getting service for your ten year old car. Ask Apple to
support your ten year old iPhone.

~~~
brusch64
I've watches some videos on youtube of guys who try to salvage Tesla's. I am
not sure if these are growing pains or if Tesla is just more interested in a
model without independent mechanics.

In these videos it seems more that Tesla is VERY hostile against people who
repair their car. They have no access whatsoever to parts, so their only
chance is to buy damaged cars and salvage the parts. My feeling was that it
was very hard for the owners to keep the cars updated and to super charge
these cars.

My experience with dealers repairs and independent contractors is that most of
the dealers change assembly groups and good mechanics change what's damaged.
You've got less problems if you change assembly groups but it is way more
expensive.

~~~
AnthonyMouse
Using used parts for repairs is normal practice. It makes little sense to
manufacture a new body panel when there is a perfectly good one from a vehicle
with a bad drivetrain just sitting there in a junkyard.

The trouble right now is because Tesla has only recently started delivering in
meaningful volumes, there is no big supply of them in junkyards to pull parts
from. And for much the same reason there are no independent parts suppliers
yet, so the company has a temporary monopoly on parts.

Whether their attitude changes when the parts monopoly erodes remains to be
seen, but competition has a way of shifting corporate behavior.

And some of the current behavior is within reason, e.g. if you have free
supercharging it's not so you can modify your car to sell that power back to
the grid, or take the VIN of a wrecked car with free supercharging and try to
transfer it to an entirely different car by exchanging a couple of parts.
There has to be some process to make sure that's not what's happening.

------
mcphage
> “Another is security, but I don’t see a security model that doesn’t trust
> the owner of the device making much sense.”

It’s not the owner of the device that Apple doesn’t trust. I wonder if there
has been any major instances of people other than the owner of an Apple device
trying to get into it? Maybe the CEO of iFixit can think of one?

------
expathacker
I love OS X, but nowadays I can't stand Apple's hardware.

Living outside of the US, using Mac products purchased in the US means you
have to go to third-party repair shops. Last week I took my 1-year old, $2,500
MBP to an Apple store in Istanbul, only to find out that Applecare doesn't
work here, and a replacement screen would cost me $650 (thanks to super high
import taxes). Tomorrow I'm taking it to a 3rd-party repair shop where the
repair, with what is likely a counterfeit or stolen screen, will cost $400.
I'm considering just buying a used Dell instead, but I hate Linux on the
desktop.

~~~
raesene9
FWIW you might find that Windows 10 Pro + WSL can get you a lot of what you
want in terms of desktop capabilities.

MS have been improving the WSL/Windows Interop quite a bit. I find that for
things like scripting, text file manipulation and connecting to Linux servers,
WSL works fine.

~~~
petepete
But I'm not prepared to have Candy Crush adverts in my Start Menu, which
counts Windows out.

Additionally, I know I can deactivate them by jumping through a couple of
hoops, but that's not the point.

~~~
raesene9
Out of curiousity, why do you feel that's not the point? Customizing an
operating system after installation is a common part of the process for any
system

Having to remove unwanted software seems like an odd reason to rule out an
entire environment.

~~~
sneak
Having to fight against a vendor who feels entitled to advertise to you via
your general purpose tools is the point, or rather, not going down that path.

------
floatingatoll
This is an excellent step for protecting MacBook Pro users against hardware
invasions (such as US and China border authorities). If you trust the user to
replace hardware, you permit the user’s hardware to be altered by malicious
actors. By restricting final approval of hardware replacement to a vetted
subset of all humanity, you ensure that it’s vastly more difficult for the
vast majority of malicious humanity.

Yes, in a theoretical world, you could set up your own crypto authority and
sign your own device repairs, assuming Apple were to build support for this.
But if you brick your CA you’d brick your laptop if it ever needed repairs
someday, which would leave you thousands of dollars poorer and in need of a
laptop.

I trust Apple to run this CA and gate access to it _far_ more than I trust my
personal self to do so. This security improvement will make me safer, as well
as my non-engineer coworkers, and my mom.

~~~
fermienrico
My opinion about Apple has changed recently. They're now actively promoting
privacy and I am OK with trading repairability with privacy.

Also, Louis Rossmann on Youtube one of the most vile, deeply corrosive
personalities out there and his audience enjoys the bashing of Apple left and
right. He has essentially marketed himself as Anti-Apple and his message is
always "Apple is Evil".

~~~
pnw_hazor
Watching Rossmann vids is why I have given up on Apple.

He points out bad engineering/manufacturing in $2000+ laptops and I agree with
his insights regarding how Apple makes it seem like the customer/user is wrong
to cover their bad engineering.

Ala -- the antenna is fine, it's your fault you have bad reception. You are
not holding the phone correctly

~~~
killaken2000
Blame the consumer and sell a fix. Think Different.

[https://venturebeat.com/2010/06/24/steve-jobs-on-
iphone-4-re...](https://venturebeat.com/2010/06/24/steve-jobs-on-
iphone-4-reception-issues-youre-doing-it-wrong/)

------
mothsonasloth
This is a step backward on ownership but the average Joe isn't going to care
about this. If at most might protest at their large repair bill they get after
dropping their Starbuck's Frappucino over their keyboard. However they will
quickly go back to their normal way of life; which is accepting onerous Terms
and Conditions from corporations.

~~~
kkarakk
Average joes aren't buying macbooks anymore, iphones and ipads all the way

------
Eridrus
So, this article says there is no security model that doesn't trust the owner
of the device, and there's something to that.

But "evil maid" attacks are a pretty routine occurance in China, and having
hardware that is resistant to that would be very interesting. I don't know
enough about hardware to really know if they can lock everything down far
enough that it's impossible to physically mess with it. It would be
interesting if you could verify whether it has been messed with using an
iPhone that has been at your side.

But I'm not an Apple user anyway, so this doesn't really effect me anyway :)

------
ramijames
As someone who have four macbooks here at home, and has been on the mac
ecosystem for decades, I'm just done with them. The last macbook pro I bought
is literal garbage. The keyboard has three broken buttons and the thing is
less than a year old. Now they are telling me that I can't fix my machines on
my own? Thanks but no thanks.

~~~
alkimie2
My sentiments exactly. Windoze has largely caught up in terms of usability and
lack of annoyance. The difference is the attitude. MSFT has become what Apple
once was--responsive and considerate of users that have different needs and
tastes. My company kind of forced me off OSX but I don't miss it. Still have 3
macbooks and 2 mini's at home. But I've also started using old W-class
thinkpads. I feel much more in control of the thinkpads. Plus they are cheap
as dirt and don't fight me every time I want to change something.

------
balls187
My first macbook pro was in 2007. I had it in a demo area and I shattered the
screen.

I found a place selling the display unit, which I replaced, for a fraction of
the cost of having apple repair it.

I imagine this is to cut down on the number of Apple computers repaired with
bootleg parts, then either resold to Apple, or brought in for warranty
repairs, but stopping legit DIYer from repairing their hardware is a pretty
terrible side effect.

EDIT TO ADD: More likely, the security chip verifies the hardware wasn't
tampered with, so it needs special software to update its checksum.

------
zetabyte
How this kind of business tactic is not illegal? I think this is a clearly
violation of user's right to repair.

~~~
prolikewh0a
Freedom.

~~~
oehpr
I mean. I'm not saying you're wrong here. What's freer than an anarchic
society after all? Of course, we can justify rules on the grounds of freedom.
A king certainly is free, his subjects are not.

So what's freer? A company that controls all aspects of their customers use of
their products? Or a company that is restricted from such practices?

I can't tell if your post is sarcastic, glib, factual... So I think you were
too terse here. Your meaning is not obvious.

------
JohnTHaller
The iMac Pro is similarly locked down. All while Apple fights against Right To
Repair legislation.

~~~
paavoova
It's absolutely baffling how so many seemingly educated, knowledgeable people
such as those found in tech can support these anti-user practices via their
support of Apple's products.

It goes further than just Apple's hardware products: some people prefer to
build "Hackintosh" systems (OSX running on non-Apple hardware) and a common
problem is dealing with wifi-adapter whitelists. Why would you ever want to
consider using an OS that imposes such arbitrary restrictions on you?

~~~
toasterlovin
Because, statistically speaking, 0% of the population wants to tinker with
their computer. Neither you nor anybody else on this website is normal.

~~~
mmontagna9
Tell that to my 70 year old grandmother who has replaced both the motherboard
and hard drive in her Lenovo desktop. If you design a somewhat reasonably easy
to repair computer people are more than happy to fix it themselves. It's only
because of the difficulty of repairing apple products that people shy away
from the idea.

~~~
toasterlovin
Or maybe your 70 year old grandmother is a several standard deviation outlier
and that has something to do with you commenting on this website, which is
frequented by several standard deviation outliers.

------
amatecha
This is pretty messed up. DRM for hardware. I just picked up a couple SGI
workstations earlier this week, both built in 1996. If SGI had implemented
some DRM like this, it would be quite the uphill battle to even make use of
these old systems that often require replacement parts to get running. There's
no excuse to tolerate these harmful practices.

I have a collection of some 20+ classic Macs, all of which I have performed
some degree of hardware replacements/repair on. No way I'd have access to some
Apple "authorized repair technician" services as an enthusiast collector who
just likes old computers.

Then there's the family members and friends whose computers I fix as a favor
-- guess they can shell out $hundreds, instead of buying a cheap replacement
part and having it installed for free, right? Assuming Apple even still
produces the respective component! :\

------
gumby
You know they also sell machines without the secure enclave bonded to the
substrate. If you don't want that feature you can buy one of their other
machines -- or someone else's.

I can find plenty of reasons to dump on Apple, but I do believe their
commitment to customer privacy is pretty strong (even before considering that
they are a large corporation).

And I say that even though I don't believe, say, their commitment to open
standards (it's historically been enthusiastic in areas where they have been
behind and then, if they claw themselves out of that particular hole, the
commitment is mysteriously sloughed off). The privacy issue, in particular in
the Cook era, has been more consistent (if imperfect) even when I would not
think it needed to be for business reasons.

Again, I'm not trying to paint apple with some broad "good guy" brush, just
talking about this one issue.

~~~
colordrops
Their whole "privacy" campaign recently is precisely to drum up business.
Everyone is parroting how Apple is so focused on privacy when they forget that
they work closely with the FBI. Remember the whole thing about iMessage
keeping encryption keys stored on apple servers? iPhones have a mics, a
camera, and access to all your personal data. Calling apple strong on privacy
is like calling lions strong on vegetarianism.

~~~
wilsonnb3
My only knowledge of Apple and the FBI is Apple refusing to unlock iPhones at
the FBi’s request - care to enlighten me further?

I’m also not sure what the problem with Apple keeping iMessage encryption keys
on their servers is. The article I read about it said that Signal also uses
centralized encryption key servers and nobody ever complains about Signal.

[https://www.wired.com/2015/09/apple-fighting-privacy-
imessag...](https://www.wired.com/2015/09/apple-fighting-privacy-imessage-
still-problems/)

~~~
colordrops
I've complained about signal in the past as well. Everyone uses signal and
telegram like they are some kind of special secret place which is an illusion.
They are more likely honey pots.

------
colejohnson66
I never understood Apple with this. They fight hard to make long lasting
devices (iOS 12 can be installed all the way back on the 5s IIRC), but then
fight back against repairability

~~~
threeseed
It's a tradeoff between owner repairability and security.

And Apple is betting that the second is more important. This isn't a
black/white issue. It's which shade of grey you prefer.

~~~
stale2002
It is not a trade-off.

Apple is instead purposely trying to make it more difficult to repair their
devices.

This is evidenced because they ate lobbying against right to repair laws.

What possible, non bad faith reason could apple have for opposing people's
right to repair their own property?

~~~
toasterlovin
They are lobbying against the right to repair laws because it will limit what
they are able to do from a security standpoint. And, since basically nobody
repairs their own machines anyway, it would be a damned shame if 100% of their
users lost out on having the best security features possible because 0% of
their users want to be able to repair their laptop.

~~~
bigbugbag
My experience is that about 75% of people owning an apple product would like
to have serviced/repaired outside apple due to very long delay and overcharged
prices.

------
crankylinuxuser
So, with more of this happening, I have a bigger question for HN.

Why does used Apple hardware command a premium, even years later? Is this
really come down to status?

I don't think I need to discuss the anti-user features that Apple does. This
crowd is more than aware.

~~~
wrs
Because it’s pretty great hardware. And if you price out trying to duplicate
it, without arbitrarily discounting for features you don’t want, it’s not even
much of a premium.

~~~
aikah
> Because it’s pretty great hardware.

It's not great, it's pretty, sure, but not great. The Last MBP spec were
pretty underwhelming, the keyboard was of dubious quality and for the price
it's easy to find better specs, more robust and with no extra fee when it
comes to warranty. When you buy a Mac you're buying a brand, not a superior
product, the "premium" is the logo on rear... Unfortunately I use both Logic
and Final Cut on a daily basis so I have no choice.

------
Arqu
I am literally waiting for the Pixelbook 2 to replace my MacBook Pro
(Touchbar) as it's been rotting away with failing speakers and keyboard
getting progressively worse over time. This is my 3rd with a decade long
history of using the devices. However, repairs are just too inaccessible. I
don't have the luxury to wait a month for a third party authorized repair shop
to do its magic so I can continue working. My best experience was with the
2011 model which I upgraded myself. Everything after was just a worse
experience.

------
alpineidyll3
Lol was already resigned to this being my last mbp (customer for at least 15
years)... This is pure icing .. .

~~~
tobyhinloopen
I just hope my current rMBP 2015 doesn't die on me... I don't want the OLED
bar, crappy keyboard or donglelife.

I don't want to run Windows either... Linux is also questionable.

Maybe I'll just get a hackintosh or something.

------
bfrog
Meanwhile fixing anything in this x220 has been as a simple as going on
amazon. Keyboard? amazon. Battery? Amazon. Display? Amazon. Plastic enclosure?
Amazon.

I've nearly replaced every damn part but the motherboard in it at this point,
and its still cheaper to own than a new macbook.

My T460 sadly seems to have gone the apple direction. I don't want to buy a
new $1K laptop every few years just because a small part broke or it needs a
battery replacement, that's a ridiculous waste.

------
United857
I'm speculating this works similar to iOS developer signing, where each device
has a unique HW-fused ID, and only Apple can issue a cryptographically-signed
provisioning profile with that ID to allow you to load software onto that
device.

In this case, each HW subsystem probably has its own unique ID which is hashed
together; replacing one invalidates the hash and requires Apple to re-sign the
system's "provisioning profile" to pass power-on tests.

~~~
bigbugbag
Unique hardware Id is incredibly useful to identify and track devices and
people around.

~~~
dannyw
Yes, so if you get your Mac or iPhone stolen it’s useless to the thief. This
already happens with iCloud Activation Lock, but people just disassemble the
motherboard and sell parts like the screen instead.

~~~
bigbugbag
How exactly is that helping getting the device back ? or the data ?

How is that supposed to work anyways ? I only know a few stories of stolen
iphones and macbooks and thieves had no issue using the devices or selling
them.

------
Aloha
If you don't like the particularities of how with how a business does
business, don't buy their products. If enough people agree with you, the
company will either go out of business, or will change its business practices.

The what amounts to hand wringing over Apple, mostly gets people flustered,
without actually changing anything, but perhaps the direction of a few
electrons somewhere.

~~~
parrellel
I, for one, refuse to buy their products and would really like it if they went
out of business.

How do I get other people to agree with me without talking about why I despise
them?

------
a_imho
This is exactly what people have been voting for with their wallets though.

------
walterbell
Is there a publicly maintained "repairability index" for laptops? iFixit used
to have scores for smartphones, but laptops would now benefit from similar
ranking.

Lenovo T480S still has some user-replaceable parts (RAM, SSD) and is only a
little heavier than X1 Carbon.

~~~
bmaupin
iFixit has repariability scores for laptops too:
[https://www.ifixit.com/laptop-repairability](https://www.ifixit.com/laptop-
repairability)

~~~
walterbell
Thanks. No Lenovo laptops on their list yet.

------
xg15
> “Another is security, but I don’t see a security model that doesn’t trust
> the owner of the device making much sense.”

Apologies for the cynism, but isn't this pretty much the mainstream security
model since at least the advent of smartphones?

~~~
vermilingua
It is mainstream, but I'd say the author has it subtly wrong. The model
distrusts the user, not the owner. It just happens that we are no longer the
owners of the devices we use.

~~~
xg15
Depends on your definition of "owner".

Legally, you're still absolutely the owner of the device. You're perfectly
allowed to smash your iPhone into tiny pieces and make an art piece out of
them. You're also liable for damages caused by the iPhone.

It's just that the device is constructed such that your choices of use are
restricted to "use exactly as permitted by Apple at any given moment" or
"don't use it at all". This is enforced by technical means, by reliance on
components you do _not_ own (e.g. cloud services or the OS software) and by
other laws (e.g. copyright). But it isn't enforced by ownership.

------
bsaul
Maybe now is a good time to try and revive user-friendly linux desktops
initiatives ? ( and i mean really user friendly... don’t mention anything that
requires displaying « libxx » or « package y » to the user every now and then)

------
CRUDite
Can anyone offer advice? I am about to enter a bootcamp, rails based, with an
attached dev company / set of instructors. There is one dev using
windows/Linux, several students on Ubuntu and the rest on Macs. I need a new
laptop to participate. I use windows (desktop) though have used unix in the
dim distant past. I am looking at a 13" i5 8gb 256gb 2017 mbp (max budget) vs
a dual boot Win / Linux machine (hp envy)with an i7 and 16mb ram, full hd 13"
touch screen (also with soldered ram but removable ssd). If 99% of the people
use Macs I assume this makes it an obvious choice?

------
srazzaque
Reading this I've grown even more appreciative of how easy ThinkPads are to
repair/upgrade. Almost encouraged, given the many guides and YouTube videos
available, and ultimately it's a cost saver to them.

And to all those that have moaned about the Linux desktop, I recently upgraded
my ssd on my x260. End to end - circa 2.5 hours (a lot of that hands off).
Fresh install of Fedora WS, with all packages and home directory restored,
back to full productivity. No dicking around with drivers or playing "50
click-through install wizards".

I can't help but wonder, is that even possible on Windows or OS X?

Edit: typo

~~~
teh_klev
I installed Windows 10 on my old Dell Vostro 1720 (purchased around 2010) with
a new SSD. There was minimal intervention by me. Within 30-40 mins I had a
usable functioning system, connected to the internet etc.

I kicked off Windows update in the background and it chugged away with no
prompting. I will admit this took a while but only because the ISO I have is
Windows 10 RTM from 2015. It would likely have been quicker with a more up-to-
date ISO with a later build.

The thing is it all depends on the hardware. If you're using more esoteric kit
then you're likely to have a few more speedbumps regardless of OS.

~~~
srazzaque
It's good to know it's come leaps and bounds since the Win7 days. What about
the software installation story? Is it still a case of download then click
next next next. If it is then it's definitely a superior in Linux, where
yum/dnf/apt will do both OS and apps for you.

I've limited experience wihb Win10, my wife has an XPS with Win10 pre-
installed, and I've literally installed 2 things on it.

------
fouc
Lenovo thinkpads have a security chip also.

These so-called security chips give me mixed feelings.

They might improve the security of the average consumer, but they also create
more barriers for anyone that wants to tinker with their setup.

~~~
bigbugbag
Almost every computer has a security chip now.

At least if your computer has something related to one of these names: AMD,
Hewlett-Packard, IBM, Intel, Microsoft, Wave Systems Corp, Digital Management,
Inc., Cisco, Lenovo, Infineon, Juniper Networks, Fujitsu, etc.

These are the member of the consortium Trusted Computing Group[1] who pushed
for Trusted Computing[2] through hardware or software.

Do you remember the Palladium fiasco (now Next Generation Secure computing
Base[3]) ? The TCPA (Trusted Computing Platform Alliance) ? This was the
beginning and it happened in the late 1990's/early 2000's.

[1]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing_Group](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing_Group)

[2]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing)

[3]: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next-
Generation_Secure_Computi...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next-
Generation_Secure_Computing_Base)

------
wlll
I have had a few run-ins with Apple over the years. Mostly semi-positive.
These have been where I've had to take my main work machine in for repair and
they've quoted me 14 days, but then turned the repair around in a few days.
They've also often thrown in unrelated free stuff too. Last time when I took
my Macbook Pro in for the free screen replacement (due to delamination) they
also replaced the battery (it was bulging slightly apparently, I'd not
noticed) and top case (the trackpad click wasn't reliable), totally free and
not required (years out of warranty).

The one case that really sticks in my mind though was when I took a 13"
Macbook (pro I think) in to have the keyboard replaced (the trackpad stuck).
It was a US model with a US keyboard that I'd bought off the company I used to
work for, and I figured that while they were replacing the keyboard they may
as well put a UK keyboard on. The Apple reps on the phone, then in store both
said this was a reasonable request (as I also thought) and so I left it with
them.

I get a call a day or so later saying that they couldn't do the repair because
"they had to replace components like for like". Bear in mind this was a paid
for repair, not under warranty. I was willing to pay for the parts and labour.
Apple confirmed that the new UK keyboard would work, but they weren't allowed
to repair the laptop with a different keyboard. Nothing I could do could
change their mind, I'd hit a complete brick wall. No keyboards could magically
fall through the cracks in the back room and no favours could be done. As
reasonable a request that all involved continued to think this was, they
wouldn't do anything.

They even called around local apple dealers and none of them would do it
either because they were all constrained by Apple's back-office systems.

In the end I bought a genuine, brand-new top case (keyboard, trackpad,
integrated battery) off eBay and did the work myself, it worked just fine. No
idea where it came from originally.

I guess this shattered any remaining idea I had that Apple was anything other
than a machine. The operations side made so efficient by Tim Cook is also
incredibly inflexible and as soon as you stray outside the bounds of what it
has accounted for you hit a wall. As friendly as the geniuses and store
employees are, Apple is not your friend.

------
garmaine
I have a new MacBook Pro and I love it, but I also bricked it on the first
day, doing nothing more than the standard security precaution of not trusting
the installed software. I rebooted into recovery, wiped the drive, and hit
install... and whelp, it turned out Apple didn’t provide compatible net boot
recovery images until weeks after launch. Had to do a store return and live
with the uncertainty of what I was running.

------
commandlinefan
Well, that’s the end of corporate MacBooks, then...

~~~
threeseed
Not sure what you mean here.

I don't know of a company on this planet who is self repairing Macs.

~~~
mjfern
We self repair macs at our university. We have staff in our dept that are
authorized repair techs. I'm sure many larger organizations have a similar
setup.

~~~
wrs
Authorized Service Facilities have access to the required tool.

------
coryfklein
Couldn't this protect me from somebody sneaking my laptop while I'm not
looking and replacing a part with another that has some spyware attached?

Sounds like it could be pretty useful, but no particular reason why to prevent
authenticated users from disabling it if desired.

------
msie
Well, Apple lost its soul years ago.

~~~
threeseed
That makes no sense. Go have a look at the original Mac 128k.

They were borderline impossible to even open.

~~~
dreamcompiler
Only because Torx screwdrivers were rare in those days. I can open a 128k Mac
now in about two minutes, and that includes the time it takes to buy the
screwdriver at Home Depot.

------
ex3ndr
Everyone forget that new MBP have TouchID that authorize payments. Replacing
this part could be done at scale and payment keys could be collected and
eventually used by bad actors.

------
pkaye
I've not looked at the details but maybe they should have make the lock
optional to the user. Initially it is unlocked but once enabled, it cannot be
disabled. This will give the right level of flexibility.

~~~
wemdyjreichert
I'd analogize this to an e2e-by-default messaging app. The average user simply
doesn't want to bother, and it's when stuff like this is the default that
change happens.

------
torgian
Upon thinking about this more, I think they’re going to alienate a lot of
their Chinese and other East Asian customers. Many of them have their
computers fixed locally and not at the Apple shop.

------
H1Supreme
Really surprised to see the display on this list. Compared to anything that
involves removing ic's or replacing resistors (for example), replacing a
display is pretty straight forward.

------
subhro
Doesn't some of the states have a "right to repair" law? If memory serves
correctly, Tesla had a trouble with that. Will Apple not be affected?

------
blue1
And since Apple repair shops refuse to touch macs beyond a certain age, it
means that it will now be completely impossible to repair an old mac.

------
superflyguy
When you buy Apple stuff aren't you accepting that you're someone who pays way
over the odds for it but that it's the price you pay for the lifestyle choice
or something? I mean, I don't get it, as I always try and get the best bang
for my buck so Apple stuff, being almost an order of magnitude more expensive
doesn't stand a chance but if you can justify throwing money at a phone or
laptop can't you just throw a bit more at it when it breaks?

~~~
atemerev
It is not a “lifestyle choice”, it was, until recently, the only source of
decent developer-oriented hardware with UNIX-like OS, where everything works
out of the box. Now there are other options, but they are just as expensive.
Good hardware costs money.

Now though they are becoming less and less developer-friendly. I already
replaced my desktop — it used to be Mac Pro, now it is a custom Linux box.
There are not that many alternatives to Macbooks, but if Apple will continue
this kind of politics, I’ll change my laptop as well. And price has nothing to
do with that.

------
amrx431
I was planning to buy a MBP. Will scout for the older models that are still in
market. MBP official repairs are damn costly.

------
qaq
Bought first non Apple notebook in 12 years turns out Ubuntu is fairly usable
and docker performs way better than on OS X.

~~~
mleonhard
Which laptop did you get and which version of Linux do you run?

I bought a 2015 DELL XPS 13 (9343) Developer Edition with Ubuntu. Ubuntu 16.04
has worked very poorly on it from the start. The installer crashed and I had
to reinstall. Then the wifi was very slow. It would frequently lock up on
resume. Hardware video decoding would occasionally crash and switch to
software decoding which is choppy and eats battery power. The touchpad
registered clicks while typing. One time the wifi suddenly stopped working
after an update. Each of these problems was mostly solved by spending a few
hours researching and running various commands as root. Some were fixed by
updates after a few weeks. The latest bug is that right-clicking on the
taskbar (panel? dash?) does not show any popup menu. So the only way to add
buttons for launching programs is to make text files on the desktop with a
special format.

I'm sick of the bugs in my Linux laptop. I'm about to get a Mac again.

~~~
dreamcompiler
Interesting. I bought the same machine with Windows (because that's what they
had at Costco) wiped Windows, installed Ubuntu myself, and haven't had any of
these problems.

------
starbugs
In states where there's a right to repair law in place, will they have to
provide the software to anyone?

------
oger
This is simply a disgusting move. Guys like Louis Rossman are filling a gap in
the market that Apple is not willing to offer: short turnaround repairs.
Honestly, politics needs to step in. #RightToRepair

~~~
shawn
Louis Rossmann does amazing work.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocF_hrr83Oc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocF_hrr83Oc)

Unfortunately, his store just caught on fire yesterday.

When it rains, it pours. Poor Louis.

------
msie
What would it take to reverse this? How about protests at one of their events?
Changing Tim Cook's mind is all that's needed.

~~~
s3r3nity
Speak with your wallet - stop buying Apple products. Tim + the shareholders
would notice that.

------
torgian
Don’t worry. The wizards in China will figure out a way around this.

~~~
userbinator
Most likely by cracking the software and then distributing it amongst
themselves, but eventually copies will(should?) find their way out into the
larger Internet.

Service software for a lot of other consumer hardware (printers, scanners,
cameras, etc.) can be found online if you search hard enough.

~~~
voltagex_
Are you able to provide any other hints? I've got an older Sony point and
shoot that's running some form of Linux (or maybe VxWorks). I'm pretty sure I
can put it in debug mode with the right SCSI command.

