

Ask HN: Should I try to patent my new game concept before deploying? - noduerme

Pretty much like the title says. I'm not a fan of tech patents for basic concepts that people come up with over and over again (like, one-click buying for example). Nor do I want to be a patent troll in my old age. The issue here actually has nothing to do with the technology or the code involved, it has to do with the rules of the game, and the math behind those rules.<p>Just to clarify, this is a gambling game for my Bitcoin casino. It's similar in many ways to a casual game, but different in the sense that the rules and math needed to be calibrated VERY precisely to achieve the desired adjustable payback ratios. Typically it's easier to file for a patent for this type of game as a set of rules than it is as a piece of software, and that's what I'd probably do. On the other hand, filing is in the $10k range as everyone knows. On the other-other hand, it's not that I'm worried about seeing this game pop up as a freebie on flash game aggregators... I'm worried about someone like Bally deciding they like it enough to make a real-world slot out of it and then running their own development track so I never see a dime in royalties.<p>The game is amazing, it's polished, I've been working on it for months and it's ready to ship tonight. I've already been advised by patent lawyers (who I can't really afford) that I might get some leeway in the US for being the first to release, but that in Europe everything about it will be basically un-patentable if I put it online without filing somewhere (oddly, filing in the States seems to be enough).<p>I run a Bitcoin casino, https://strikesapphire.com ...and I'm more interested in pushing out original games than anything else... but the fact is we're not making a whole lotta money at the moment given the state of the Bitcoin economy, and what I'd really like is to land some nice game licensing contracts on the side. But it's a catch-22, because to show what I've got I have to release more and more new games (4 more in the pipeline) and at some point I think I need to get OUT of this "ship it" mentality and start thinking about whether I should bother putting new ideas out there that other casinos / land casinos / game manufacturers are likely to steal if they gain the popularity I'd like them to.
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anigbrowl
It's an uphill fight: <http://www.gamingmath.com/new-games.html>

Is your game super-fun, as well as being super-configurable? If so, maybe
pitch it to Zynga or Pop-cap or some other company that's well established in
the casual gaming space. Sure, they might rip it off, but it's likely cheaper
and easier for them to buy it/hire you. I see you wisely make the site
unavailable to US residents to avoid falling foul of gambling laws, so I can't
guess what sort of games these are. But although there is money in running a
casino, there's also a lot of money in recreation, with fewer worries about
suddenly finding your assets frozen because some criminal once put $50 through
your online casino.

~~~
noduerme
I think reading that piece by the Wizard of Odds a few years ago was what made
me decide I had to start my own casino rather than trying to license these
things to Bally or Shufflemaster. I'm not a pitch-and-spin type guy, I once
pitched YC with the alpha version of this very casino and gave up in the
middle of the application. I do agree about the revenue model you're talking
about working...I mean, I've seen that it works...but I have a hard time
getting motivated for it, because personally I couldn't waste five minutes of
my life playing a video game if there wasn't money at risk. Ditto sports. I
just don't care if I don't have skin in the game, and I get bored fast. And
it's hard for me to pitch to an audience that I consider to be basically
throwing their time away.

This game's less configurable than the others... I like screwing with the
underlying concepts of gambling. Previously I messed with 2D slots, letting
players set their own symbols, weights on those symbols, and number of reels
while keeping the max RTP constant but requiring some skill to calculate what
you were getting. Did the same thing with Keno; fluid paytables. Then I
started getting into more outlandish concepts like this:
<http://youtu.be/gD4GqCAAsmo> and a 17-line slot with an internal bonus
multiplier that hadn't been tried before... <http://youtu.be/n4iwh7GNwNI>

All this got some attention from software companies who I didn't want to go to
work for, asking me to shut down my site and come work for them on building a
nicer Pai-Gow game or whatever. Didn't work for me.

The new one's a 3D "slot" with 36 lines, that's more than 50% skill-based but
still has an RTP between 96-100%, no more. Perfect play yields 100% RTP...that
was the idea. Also, while the normal payouts stay constant regardless of the
skill level the player chooses, the progressive jackpot is more likely to pay
out the higher the skill level, an extremely difficult inversion of the
paytable since those skill levels are harder to win on normally.

Anyway, I figure Zynga probably ain't interested because it's not social, it's
antisocial. It's gambling.

~~~
anigbrowl
I bet you liked the transfer game in _Paradroid_. If you don't know it, you
should definitely check it out. Myself, I can't fathom the fun in throwing
down money on a mechanical random process. I play small-stakes poker
occasionally, but that's just because I enjoy bluffing.

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chris_dcosta
You say that the algorithm and maths are the key to your return, but what are
you afraid of here? Someone reverse engineering your algorithm?

As far as I can tell nobody's come that close to reverse engineering google
one yet and beating them at it, so if it necessarily complex to create, it
will probably be equally tough to crack. Being first is good in any event.

~~~
noduerme
The problem is that in casino games, you put the payouts on the board. The
payout table basically _is_ the algorithm. No matter how complex the route is
to getting there, or how hard it was to find the perfect balance of
fun/volatility/payout/profit, once it's out in the world it's very easy to rip
off.

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tomfakes
I would talk to a copyright lawyer to see what can be done there too. Many of
the recent table games in casinos are copyrighted, e.g Let It Ride, 3 card
poker etc. You may be able to copyright enough of the game to help fend off
the big guys from ripping you off.

IANAL

