
Interview with Mr. Money Mustache - craigcannon
https://blog.ycombinator.com/dont-start-a-blog-start-a-cult-mr-money-mustache/
======
joeax
I've been reading his blog for a few years, and he does some have some
insightful advice on shedding unnecessary expenses and living on a frugal
spending diet. I've been able to get down to one car that is almost paid off,
and double my savings and investment portfolio. My favorite article from him
is living close enough to work to bike (although working from home is most
ideal).

However, his blog comes with a bit of smug (calling himself a "cult", or "Good
news, there's a recession coming"). His faithful mantra of "retiring at 30" is
a pipe dream unless: (1) you have a big income i.e. $200k per year by the time
you are 25, (2) have a software engineer wife that makes as much as you and
have no kids, or (3) inherited a large sum to begin with. All of his case
studies are about him and his wife who were pulling $100k before they
"retired", or the lawyer who was pulling in $160k a year at 26. Kudos to them,
but good luck trying to retire as a welder or car mechanic making $50k.

~~~
astura
MMM is too smug and pushy for a good portion of the general public. His
writing can awfully hostile, it could be toned down a bit and his message
would get further - some of his advice is very sensible.

The problem with frugal blogs (in general) is they do one or more of the
following; push penny pinching 24/7, "if you aren't eating lentils everyday
and living in a cardboard box you're fucking up," they are too condescending,
or they are only applicable to the already rich/privileged, like Mitt Romney's
"just borrow 10s of thousands of dollars from your parents to start a
business, easy!," and are out of touch with they "everyday man," or fail to
recognize that people are different than them.

I think I could write a blog that is more accessible, I have experience being
both very high income and very low income. It's such a saturated market though
I doubt I'd get any readers. Maybe I'll do it just for myself some day to
formulate some of the thoughts I have on the topic.

~~~
branchless
He has several rentals and lives off other families. We can't all do that.
It's not a real, scalable solution. It's not genuine.

~~~
CodeCube
Personally, I find rent-seeking landlords to be an unethical pursuit. I know
that's not a mainstream thought, and is the underpinning of many people's
income strategy ... but I can't support the idea of letting a family live in a
property for decades, and then something happening, and they're on the street
with nothing to show for the tens of thousands of dollars they have given in
rent.

~~~
reverend_gonzo
The reason to rent is for the ability to move on demand.

If a family is renting in the same place for decades, that is their problem.
The moment you realize you are going to stay in one place for an extended
period of time, there is no reason to continue renting. Sure, not everybody
can purchase their dream home. But they can purchase something small, build
equity, and upgrade in the future. The government also has programs to help
first time buyers, especially those with less income.

Again, the primary reason to rent is so you can relocate. If you are not
planning on relocating in the 5-10 years, you should own, or be working on
owning.

Furthermore, the landlord is taking on risk (risk of the market moving against
him, risk of the tenant not paying him or the place remaining unoccupied after
a tenant leaves), is paying property taxes, insurance, is responsible for
broken appliances, and is also often taking on a loan with higher interest
rates.

Should all of this be provided for free?

~~~
astura
"You should own," no, everyone is different.

Many people have no interest or ability to take care of a property. I watched
my grandparents' house deteriorate and literally fall apart from neglect. [I
used to think the roof leaking when it rained was a totally normal thing] They
had literally every appliance in the house break over the years but they
didn't have the wherewithal to replace anything so they just went without.
They lived in total squalor for _years,_ it was depressing (as well as very
dangerous) visiting. If code enforcement stopped by they'd be homeless.

For sure, there is many, many benefits to owning, I love being a homeowner
(most of the time - though I did get a little sticker shocked at my first 4
figure repair bill), but don't believe for a second "everyone should own."

~~~
ghaff
I don't disagree with your broader point. But I would point out that owning
doesn't need to mean owning a standalone house. In addition, in general,
renting starts to become problematic at some point in life where being forced
to move because the landlord sold the property becomes a really unpleasant
situation.

~~~
astura
Condos are another can of worms.

I just very briefly touched on one issue with owning and why it may make sense
for someone to rent for years (even if it might not be _financially_
optimal[1]).

Books could be written about the topic.

The main takeaway is "everyone is different." And "one size does not fit all."
Remember, many _businesses_ still choose to rent over buying.

[1] plus you only truly know in hindsight what was truly financially optimal

------
mod
Something that seems to be lost in this thread, which looks to be mostly a
debate about whether or not early retirement is feasible for normal people:

For normal people, MMM strategy is about making uncomfortable decisions
(plain, reliable used cars, no fine dining, no fancy houses, no downtown-big-
city living locations) to avoid the most uncomfortable thing of all: work.

If you would rather have a job your whole life so you never have to eat a bean
or drive a 20 year old car, you're not the target audience. People who are
driven to early retirement & financial independence are people who DESPISE
jobs and are willing to spend their whole life at a much smaller income
bracket in exchange for not having one.

They don't want your new devices, cable tv, leased cars, and downtown
apartments. They agree those things are nice, but not nice enough to take on
an extra 40,000 hours of "servitude" with an employer.

The strategy is simple: if you can live on 20% of your income, and save the
rest, then in a few years, you will have the ability to reproduce that same
income indefinitely. The amount of the income doesn't matter, and that is
being lost here for some reason. If you can't do 20%, you can do 30% and a few
extra years. Or whatever.

The MMM strategy is about ditching the job, and balancing the trade-offs to
something you can stomach. If you can't stomach it, fine, but that doesn't
mean it's not a viable strategy.

~~~
arthurjj
> People who are driven to early retirement & financial independence are
> people who DESPISE jobs and are willing to spend their whole life at a much
> smaller income bracket in exchange for not having one.

I was surprised by the negativity in this thread until I read this sentence.
Most readers here though have the option of either finding a less terrible job
or starting our own companies. When neither of those are an option eating
beans sounds pretty good.

------
jacquesm
The MMM way is more about locking in your luck than anything else. Be frugal,
when lady luck smiles and you have a lot of income make sure you do not waste
the proceeds and avoid living above your means at all costs. Having skills is
a plus and in his particular case it helps if you are good at building a
personal brand so you can ride the self help bandwagon.

Very useful information compared to most other self help institutions though,
far more actionable but a bit preachy and unaware of how complex other peoples
lives are but such over simplification can help to make a point.

Also, he seems to pretend as if he is the first person ever to live like this
but there are many others that simply never thought of themselves as special
in any way. See also: the millionaire next door.

~~~
ForRealsies
Being __frugal __is the biggest baloney to wealth. People like you and I
obsess over it because $COST_OF_LIVING is the one variable of the Income
Wealth Equation we can control.

You want to become wealthy? Affect millions.

~~~
jacquesm
Well, change frugal to 'don't be wasteful' then if that makes more sense to
you. A friend of mine has _four_ holidays per year, lives in an 800K euro
house, has a whole pile of other interesting expenses and wonders out loud to
me why he has no money left over. And that's with both him and his wife
pulling in six figure salaries...

~~~
ForRealsies
Sounds like your friend sacrificed the future for the today. But far, far too
many of us are guilty of sacrificing today for a tomorrow 40 years from now.

Get rich slow when you're 70, or get rich fast by working your ass off and
being accountable for your wealth.

------
dsacco
Something I’m curious about regarding Mr. Money Mustache - is he actually
retired, in the sense that he doesn’t do anything to bring in income (except
through passive index investing)?

It seems like he has a brand that is pretty lucrative, so it’s unclear to me
if he:

1\. has enough money to be functionally retired at his current lifestyle, but
chooses to continue his brand anyway,

2\. has enough money to be functionally retired, but not at his current
lifestyle, and so chooses to continue his brand,

3\. cannot functionally retire and simply “transitioned” from professional
software development to professional blogging.

I follow the logic of his blog series (reduce spending dramatically, increase
savings dramatically, invest optimally), but I can’t tell how much of it
contributes to his current lifestyle.

~~~
kdamken
I don't think you know what retired actual means here. It doesn't mean never
working again, it more refers to being financially independent.

If he wanted to stop all those projects and never do anything again, he could.
But that would probably be boring, so he pursues things that interest him,
some of which net him income.

He's gone over his family's spending before, if you want to read more -
[http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/01/16/exposed-the-mmm-
fa...](http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/01/16/exposed-the-mmm-
familys-2014-spending/)

~~~
vasilipupkin
Beautiful. Since we get to make up our own definition of what retired means, I
guess I am also retired.

re·tired rəˈtī(ə)rd/Submit adjective 1\. having left one's job and ceased to
work.

~~~
imgabe
You can substitute "financially independent" if it makes you feel better. Many
people continue doing things that generate income even though they don't need
the money. It's worth noting the difference between someone working because
it's what they enjoy doing vs. someone who is compelled to work by financial
necessity.

~~~
vasilipupkin
if they have enough money that they don't actually need to work and yet do
work that generates income why don't they take that income and fully donate it
to charity? if MMM doesn't do that, it means he needs that income - not
different from just having a job

~~~
imgabe
That's a ridiculous standard. How much money do you make? Do you live on the
bare minimum necessary for survival and donate the rest? If you do, then
kudos. If you're like most other people, you probably indulge in a luxury once
in a while that you wouldn't otherwise buy if you couldn't afford it. That's
not unreasonable. If your income unexpectedly declined, I'm sure there's a
number of expenses that aren't strictly necessary and could be given up
without too much worry.

FWIW, MMM did blog about giving away $100,000 of his blog windfall last year
([https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2016/10/26/notes-on-
giving-a...](https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2016/10/26/notes-on-giving-
away-100000/)) and plans to give away more.

~~~
vasilipupkin
that's not really the point. I have expenses that aren't strictly necessary
that I could give up - but those are things I like. So, the question is, why
should you claim to be retired and then work part time to afford extra things
you like, vs just have a job and afford those things.

------
_jal
Allow me to just throw out that I love the transcript. I know it is a lot of
work, but I wish more podcasters would publish them.

I watch/listen to very few podcasts; don't drive regularly, which is where I
would normally consume them, and otherwise tend to skip them because so many
are a tedious waste of time. Plus, I just prefer text to video.

So, thank you!

~~~
craigcannon
Glad you like it! Always helpful to know what's worth the effort :)

~~~
baccredited
Can you help me find the RSS feed? I'm trying to subscribe in a popular iOS
podcast player (Overcast) and struggling to find the feed.

Never mind found at: backtracks.fm/ycombinator/ycombinator/feed

------
otterpro
The easiest way to retire early is to enlist in the military, at least in the
US, anyway. After 20 years of service, you are set for life with life-long
retirement pension and healthcare. Of course, there's a high risk, since
there's always wars and deployments, etc and many don't make it past 10 years,
after they get fed up with being in the military.

When I was in the army, I saw a lot of people in their early 40's who retired
after their service, and many spent their time either working in another job,
because of boredom of retirement, or activities like traveling. These were
those who enlisted right after high school, with nothing but a HS degree, but
they were doing much better off than my friends who had college and MBA.

~~~
kamaal
Military pensions continue to be the top reason why most young people across
the world are attracted to join the forces.

But there is a catch though. You really have to serve the minimum time. And
like you said most get either fed up, or they are discharged early. The other
part is in many parts of the world, there is relative peace, so its a safe
bet. Plus most of the times apart from the training days, they actually see
good physical exercise everyday to its like a win-win job.

In India armed forces have asked for a kind of roll over pensions, where every
year your pensions are revised and you are paid as much as the highest paid
servicemen retiring in the rank you retired from. Of course there is a lot of
opposition from the civilian side for something like this.

Given the relative peace in the Indian subcontinent, in most cases its
possible for many people to make it through without much risk, and if you join
early, you can come out by 40, with a neat yearly increasing pension for the
rest of your life.

They also have short service commission jobs in the Indian army, which don't
carry these benefits. And they often go unfilled for the obvious reasons.

------
RestlessMind
The biggest question I face regarding early retirement in the USA is how to
handle health care expenses, because the situation is so messed up. There is
huge uncertainty around the future of healthcare, especially regarding
coverage and quality.

So far, all the early retired people I have seen have either a working spouse
or have retired abroad. It would be great to know if people here, especially
those who retired early, have solved the problem of healthcare coverage.

~~~
elihu
At least with the Affordable Care Act (which survived yet another repeal-and-
replace attempt this week), it's possible to buy insurance on the open market
with a pre-existing condition (which I assume that almost everyone older than
their 20s or 30s has at least one). So for now health insurance is an expense
you can plausibly budget for and not something that's completely unattainable
at any price.

~~~
RestlessMind
Given the political uncertainty around ACA until now, I would say its a
rational decision to not rely on it. Sure, it survived this round of repeal
efforts, but I am not sure if it is going to survive next 10 years. There is a
very good chance that it will be replaced, and only a moderate chance that
replacement will be better than what we have today.

------
craigcannon
Hey! Thanks to many of you for suggesting Pete as a guest on the podcast.

Let me know if you have ideas for other folks. You can comment here or email
me - craig@ycombinator.com

~~~
refrigerator
Ben Thompson of Stratechery
([https://www.stratechery.com](https://www.stratechery.com)) - in addition to
just talking about tech, would be good to hear about how he's grown his blog
into such a great business.

~~~
craigcannon
:thumbsup:

------
SandersAK
This is such a weird content piece from YC. Is this supposed to help us
understand brand marketing? If so, I want to hear from people who have piloted
the brands of massively successful startups, not a guy who says he's head of a
cult.

Though I don't agree with or support self-help / Tim Ferris types personally,
I'm open to the idea that this guy has some key insight into branding for
startups, but this content doesn't really have any of that.

I appreciate a hustler as much as anyone, but this guy doesn't stand out from
your generic Tim Ferris / Gary Vee snake oil lifestyle sellers.

------
galfarragem
_' Life is a balancing act.'_

I do also use to read his blog but I don't follow 'frugalism' as a cult. I
cherrypick what I consider that adds significant value to my life. The same
with other "isms" like Agnosticism, Centrism, Minimalism and Intellectualism..

------
ryanmercer317
I know the vast majority of you are 6-figure types and MMM is still making 6
figures annually from his blog and his wife's 'hobby' business and that he
never actually has to touch his retirement investments and can in fact add
more money to them annually than most people in the U.S. actually gross.

According to the U.S Census Bureau "The per capita income for the overall
population in 2008 was $26,964; for non-Hispanic Whites, it was $31,313; for
Blacks, it was $18,406; for Asians, it was $30,292; and for Hispanics, it was
$15,674."

It's taken me 11 years to get to 32k, I got super lucky early this summer and
got hired for some remote work, full time on top of my current job, for a tech
company thanks to someone at YC helping me out. A day after I started I was
told I was inelligible for employment because several years ago I had to file
bankruptcy.

So while you all sit nice and well with your 6-figure incomes, talking about
how horrible your lives are when you earn more in a year than I do in 3-5
years BEFORE your bonuses and 401k match and all the benefits you get that
real businesses don't offer their employees... just know a lot of us are
busting our asses just to feed ourselves.

------
avenoir
How much money do you have to have in index funds to live comfortably off
dividends? Isn't it an astronomical amount? I have ~$100K in index funds and
i'm making about $100 (if even that)/month right now which just gets
reinvested. You'd have to have at least half a mil to get any kind of serious
money out of this.

~~~
tonyedgecombe
Are you paying a lot in fees? I would have expected a better return than that.

~~~
avenoir
Very possible since this is a managed account. I am terrified of doing
anything in the stock market, unfortunately.

------
brndnmtthws
Does anyone else think it's a bit funny to see an MMM interview on YC? Through
their investments, YC seems quite pro-consumerism. Consumerism is the
antithesis of being mustachian. It's always kind of bothered me that HN (and
YC) seems to encourage conspicuous consumption.

~~~
jacquesm
Where do HN and YC encourage conspicuous consumption? Does ramen profitable
somehow equate conspicuous consumption?

~~~
brndnmtthws
A significant number of YC's alumnus look like Juiceros to me. Building
products nobody needs because they think there's enough stupid people to
create a market. Slap together some glossy marketing materials, and now you've
got a premium product ready to change the world.

Frankly, most people don't need to be constantly buying new things. They
should be buying less, fixing what they've got, saving more, going outside and
getting exercise.

~~~
jacquesm
YC alumnus != YC. Huge difference there.

Agreed on the 'changing the world' bs, though there are some that genuinely
seem to have that goal (Watsi, for instance).

And yes, people usually do not need all that they are buying but then again,
it keeps the economy going, I'm having a hard time imagining a world where
everybody behaves like MMM does, it would not scale.

------
jaclaz
Only to say that there is "nothing new under the sun", Mr. Money Mustache's
basic message is (was) essentially "common sense", some time ago I cited an
old Italian proverb in a similar enough topic:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14593794](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14593794)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14594858](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14594858)

He only uses his own experience to show how it can come out in practice (and
of course it needs to be scaled - down or up - depending on personal income,
financial situation, family size, etc. and of course expectations).

Results will of course be different, but the basic principle remains valid.

------
robertcorey
Mr. Money Mustache started me down the path of exploring my own personal
philosophy. I now worship MMM as a diety (MMM !== Pete Adeney in my religion).
Thanks for the teachings Pete.

~~~
AVTizzle
Robert - what would you recommend as a getting started guide to MMM?

And how would you describe your personal philosophy?

~~~
froindt
Not Robert, but I would start here.

[http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-
sim...](http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-
behind-early-retirement/)

Start reading more from there and remember it's your expenses more than your
income that matter most. Also remember he turned the dial quite far.

And this page is also quite good. You don't have to go as extreme as MMM, and
doing so would burn out a lot of people.

[https://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence/comments/58j8...](https://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence/comments/58j8pc/build_the_life_you_want_then_save_for_it/)

~~~
hammock
Seconding this. That MMM article is what got me started into reading more of
that blog.

------
sjg007
I find it interesting that both he and his wife were high income earner
earners. That makes it easier to save appropriately and get to financial
freedom sooner. I think he even notes this in some of his blog posts that the
opportunity to become financially free is limited. A lot of people don't have
a 3 month or 6 month reserve which I think is the first goal. Get there first.

~~~
ryanmercer317
He and his wife are STILL high income earners. From his affiliate links,
sponsored posts and going on and on about his wife's etsy business I guarantee
you they are still making six figures without ever having to touch their
retirement investments. Call him out on that and guess what, he will NOT
approve the comment on his posts.

------
dxbydt
man, what a weird pov. Start at the beginning - "nobody should do the 40 mile
pleasanton to sf commute". I guess he means pleasanton to mv, because if you
were to go to sf you'd just take the bart door to door. So do you know how
many engineers drive from pleasanton, or in general east bay, to mv ? I'd
wager its upwards of 100k, considering the backed up traffic on 680 between 8
am to noon. now are all of these engineers fools ? the majority of them have a
nice tech gig in mv at the biggest tech firms - the sexiest startups and
boring profitable enterprises, a solid 150k+ paycheck, stocks, 401k etc and
are paying off their mortgage in the east bay on a large 3k sq ft house in an
incredible school district. the tech companies themselves encourage this
behavior by plying free wifi-buses on 680 so you've done your git commits en
route. so which part of this is objectionable and why ? even if facebook
builds a company town in san mateo or wherever, engineers are ultimately
humans who have reasonable human desires to buy a house & get hitched & start
a family & send the kids to school, so all of that isn't going to happen
within the confines of a company town designed for the 20 year old median
programmer crowd. in all likelihood, this 40 mile commute, whether to east bay
or south bay or wherever will be the norm, because the alternative is what ?
all of us moving to colorado and riding our bicycles to work?! i mean i envy
your frugal no-waste healthy bicycle lifestyle, but i just don't see all these
engineers with giant beer bellies either. they do the 40 mile commute because
there really isn't much of a choice, and most companies do offer some form of
on-site fitness regimen, so the majority does keep in shape. financially the
outcome is positive as well - appreciating equity in a spacious sunny
california home, 7 figure retirement accounts, kids in good schools. if the
only downside is a 40 mile commute, i'll take that any day of the week.

~~~
ck425
His point of view is that those perks don't justify the commute. I'm
personally inclined to agree with him having tried both.

There's a fair amount of research suggesting short commutes are good for
mental health and the effects of regular walking/running/cycling are well
known.

------
bluetwo
For a guy who claims to be retired he sure seems to work a lot.

~~~
sowbug
Feeds into the universal basic income philosophy: if you don't have to work to
survive, you might still work on things you care about.

~~~
bluetwo
Do you think he is doing this for free? I don't.

~~~
sowbug
No, neither of us thinks that.

I think you wanted to point out an inconsistency between the dictionary
definition of retirement and the fact that this person is still receiving
income in exchange for work. You made your point. Let's move past that.

Not having to work to survive (e.g., this guy, retirement, UBI, lottery, vow
of asceticism, whatever) gives you more options. Some people go on permanent
vacation. Some people keep chugging away at their jobs because they still
enjoy them. Some people change to jobs that they previously weren't willing to
stake their survival on, and those new jobs might or might not pay money. I
don't know this MMM guy, but it seems like he's in that last group. Doesn't
sound so strange to me.

I'd be pretty disappointed if retiring meant you were prohibited from doing
things that others happened to be willing to pay for.

------
jacquesm
How disappointing to see this flagged.

------
tsc
Does anybody know whether the transcripts are done manually or automatically?
Seems to be a lot of work if it’s done manually.

~~~
craigcannon
[https://backtracks.fm](https://backtracks.fm) does it for us and they also
host the podcast. I think they do a bit of both but don't know for sure.

------
wpietri
Oh god. I'm horrified by this.

> People think of a cult as a bad thing [...] really, it’s just a social
> organization structure which is a basic built-in thing to human beings

This is the naturalistic fallacy, or the is-ought fallacy. Other basic built-
in things to human beings include ignorance, rage, greed, abuse, exploitation,
and violence.

A core part of civilization is deciding which of our basic built-in things are
valuable, amplifying the useful bits, and circumscribing the ones that aren't.
Treating something as good because it's natural is a giant error. A very
convenient one for him here.

~~~
theorique
Don't read too much into it.

He's only using "cult" as a provocative term to describe a tribe of fans who
passionately like a particular brand. Nobody's going to be committing human
sacrifices or burning heretics on behalf of Mr Money Mustache any time soon.

~~~
islanderfun
> Don't read too much into it.

It's hard not to especially when comes to people in power and leadership.

------
peterwwillis
tl;dr privileged white guy tells you you can retire at 30 if you have access
to >300k a year for 10 years and ride a bike

------
tryingagainbro
_retired at 30_

and probably making millions a year, because "he retired". Now that's
retirement.

A++++ on marketing.

------
ggggtez
Rich guy tells poor guys, "to get rich, trick poor guys to listen to you".

He's not wrong but you're all fools for caring about what he has to say.

~~~
dceddia
His message is basically summarized as "Spend less than you earn, and invest
it in index funds."

He's not wrong, but I submit that the people implementing that advice aren't
fools, either.

~~~
ggggtez
I'm referring to his comment about starting a cult. He is right of course that
finding gullible people to follow you is easy. Just say some obvious things
like "don't spend all your money, save and invest!" and the sheep will flock.
Maybe you gave him no money, but you spent your time and attention.

