
AMD Introduces "Mantle" API Initiative - jobstijl
http://www.hardwarezone.com.sg/tech-news-amd-introduces-mantle-api-initiative-unleash-amd-gpus-full-potential
======
Jaecen
This sounds like 3Dfx and Glide all over again. I do not miss those days.

~~~
stormbrew
This was my first thought as well.

------
Jare
A few relevant notes from AMD's Twitter at @AMDRadeon:

\- Collaboration between AMD and DICE/EA

\- The Frostbite engine, used in Battlefield 4, "will use "Mantle" low-level
API instead of DX11 on compatible Radeon GPUs."

\- "Mantle enables 9x more draw calls per second than any other APIs by
reducing CPU overhead - works with all GCN GPUs!"

~~~
Jare
And Nick from AMD:
[http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1788711&postcount=2...](http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1788711&postcount=210)

 _Mantle is the direct result of a number of AAA game developers asking us for
something like this because of several constraints they 're experiencing with
existing PC graphics APIs. Those developers want to get closer to the metal
and able to achieve more with the GPU(s) on their PC without the API getting
in the way of this effort. "More with more" is the term used by Raja and it
couldn't be more spot on. AMD listened to developer feedback and entered this
venture with Johan Andersson leading the charge. Johan has a passion for
writing efficient code that can allow him to accomplish his technical vision
and Mantle exists to serve this purpose.

Mantle is not for every developer. It is a low-level graphics API designed to
drive the GPU in the most efficient manner. This level of access requires a
bit more development effort than existing APIs to reap the rewards it
provides.

AMD remains committed to support DirectX and OpenGL and to keep optimizing our
drivers for those APIs. Mantle is an option that some developers may choose,
but it does not affect those that wish to keep using existing APIs.

Some technical concerns are mentioned on this thread. The Mantle API has been
in design and development for more than 2 years and rest assured we've had
some time to think about the best way to address those (and loads of others).

More technical details about Mantle will be revealed in due course. Johan is a
keynote speaker at the AMD Developer Summit (11-14 November, San Jose).

Nick - Gaming Engineering Manager, AMD_

------
azinman2
Pros:

\- No more drivers second guessing you.

\- Speed

Cons:

\- OpenGL/DirectX Drivers actually re-write the code stream and fix existing
bugs from developers for specific game/versions. This is useful for the
ecosystem because AMD/NVIDIA know more about 3D than most devs and how to be
performant.

\- It also really means NVIDIA will do the same if this catches on and now
there will need to be at least two different supported implementations for
anyone going down this route (prob amd + nvidia + {opengl, dx}). Changing out
the 3d driver to be pluggable in a backend-agnostic way will be extremely
hard/annoying to code around.

~~~
simoncion
"Changing out the 3d driver to be pluggable in a backend-agnostic way will be
extremely hard/annoying to code around."

I hear that the Gallium3D project has done a substantial part of that work
already:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallium3D](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallium3D)

------
devx
Two years old article basically talking about this:

[http://www.bit-
tech.net/hardware/graphics/2011/03/16/farewel...](http://www.bit-
tech.net/hardware/graphics/2011/03/16/farewell-to-directx/1)

------
asdfs
According to [http://www.techspot.com/news/54134-amd-launches-mantle-
api-t...](http://www.techspot.com/news/54134-amd-launches-mantle-api-to-
optimize-pc-gpu-performance.html): "We've been told at the GPU14 Tech Day
event that the Mantle API is open, so theoretically Nvidia could purpose the
technology in their GPUs."

How feasible that is in reality is of course up for question. And I doubt that
nVidia would be willing to implement an AMD-controlled API.

~~~
AsymetricCom
Probably about as feasible as Intel implementing AMD64 CPU extensions.

~~~
pavpanchekha
I seem to recall that Intel paid for that right with the SSE2 instruction set.
Do you suggest something similar would have to happen? Please refrain from
sarcasm as it adds little to a discussion and had the effect of insulting the
previous poster.

------
jobstijl
Live blogger: [http://www.anandtech.com/show/7368/amd-gpu-product-
showcase-...](http://www.anandtech.com/show/7368/amd-gpu-product-showcase-
live-blog)

------
zokier
I wonder how they are planning to do forward/backward compatibility? If Mantle
catches on, will it constraint HW development due its low-level nature?

------
mihai_ionic
VOD of the announcement is available here:
[http://www.livestream.com/amdlivestream/video?clipId=pla_334...](http://www.livestream.com/amdlivestream/video?clipId=pla_33493acd-
ba7b-4917-8caf-ff204913625b).

Mantle information starts at 02:26:40.

------
fafner
This could be an opportunity for AMD considering they ship the GPU for both
the new XBox and PS4 and Wii U. But Carmack suspects that MS and Sony won't
like it because it could boost Steambox.

[https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/383047595725037568](https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/383047595725037568)

> AMD has an interesting opportunity with Mantle because of their dual console
> wins, but I doubt Sony and MS will be very helpful.

and

[https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/383051142755663872](https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/383051142755663872)

> Considering the boost Mantle could give to a steambox, MS and Sony may wind
> up being downright hostile to it.

------
BuckRogers
This is the huge benefit with the console wins to AMD that Carmack spoke about
at Quakecon this year. Sounds like thanks to the new consoles, this will put
AMD in the driver's seat. Everyone else will be stuck on DX or OGL. If
NV/Intel implements Mantle it may well require a hardware change, since AMD
defines this API going forward.

~~~
venomsnake
Or maybe it won't - it could just be implemented by firmware. If the computing
power is there on the silicone some talented engineers could always find ways
to use it. And this is not without benefits for nVidia - they could obsolete
old 5xx cards that still got year or two life in them left.

And if the benefits of the api are so great as claimed than performance could
go so high that for 1080p it will just don't matter if nVidia is slightly
slower.

It is funny that Valve and AMD do for PC gaming what I claimed in 2001-2 MS
should do - I called it game mode then. Unload everything but the TCP/IP stack
and give all the resources to a game.

------
ahomescu1
My first thought when I saw the slides, especially the "cross-platform part",
was "yay, no more DirectX!!!". This might mean that we're finally going to
have AAA games on Linux too (DirectX was a big obstacle to that).

~~~
teamonkey
Mantle still doesn't solve input, audio, and a number of other services that
DirectX provides in a unified way. Also, potentially AMD only, which has a
smaller share than both Intel and nVidia.

~~~
BuckRogers
100% share of the next-gen console though, which is what counts for gaming.

~~~
teamonkey
I'm not sure that matters too much, to be honest. Mantle probably isn't coming
to the consoles because they have their own direct architecture.

If you develop for PC you want to maximize market share so you need to ask if
it's really worth supporting another graphics API for a performance boost on
the #3 vendor.

------
oofabz
This is not for performance. OpenGL has very low overhead, and already allows
you to "directly tap into the hardware" and "fully exploit the capabilities of
modern GPUs".

AMD wants people to write code that will not run on Nvidia and Intel hardware.
Nvidia has been doing the same thing for years with CUDA.

~~~
binarycrusader
Follow some of the top-end OpenGL developers on Twitter sometime; you'll
change your tune quickly.

There's a significant amount of overhead in the existing OpenGL API, which
currently can only be mitigated somewhat through vendor-specific extensions.
But extensions alone aren't sufficient to address some of the serious issues
that the OpenGL API has today.

OpenGL forces you to maintain a tremendous amount of state information that
significantly increases overhead.

John Carmack and many others have explicitly mentioned this in past
discussions.

While I'm horrified at the idea of revisiting the days of 3DFX glide and
installing my own client ICD into a game driectory, if Mantle drives the
OpenGL ARB to start seriously addressing those issues and increases
competition, then I'm all for it.

~~~
qznc
Who are those "top-end OpenGL developers on Twitter"? Maybe some blogs you can
recommend?

~~~
binarycrusader
Here are some of the graphics people I follow on Twitter and whom I personally
consider experts in the field:

Fabian Giesen: [https://twtter.com/rygorous](https://twtter.com/rygorous)
[http://fgiesen.wordpress.com/](http://fgiesen.wordpress.com/) \-- RAD Game
Tools

Sean Barrett: [https://twitter.com/nothings](https://twitter.com/nothings) \--
ex-Looking Glass, now RAD Game Tools

Brian Hook: [https://twitter.com/GrumpyHook](https://twitter.com/GrumpyHook)
\-- ex-id Software, now RAD Game Tools

Romain Guy: [https://twitter.com/romainguy](https://twitter.com/romainguy) \--
Google (Android)

John Carmack:
[https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack](https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack) \-- id
Software Founder / Occulus VR CTO

Johan Andersson: [https://twitter.com/repi](https://twitter.com/repi) \--
Technical Director on Frostbite Engine at DICE (Battlefield Games)

Dave Moore: [https://twitter.com/dmmfix](https://twitter.com/dmmfix) \-- RAD
Game Tools

Tom Forsyth:
[https://twitter.com/tom_forsyth](https://twitter.com/tom_forsyth) \-- ex-
Valve (?), ex-Intel, now at Occulus

Graham Sellers:
[https://twitter.com/grahamsellers](https://twitter.com/grahamsellers) \-- AMD

Matthäus G. Chajdas:
[https://twitter.com/NIV_Anteru](https://twitter.com/NIV_Anteru)

Christophe Riccio: [https://twitter.com/g_truc](https://twitter.com/g_truc)
\-- ex-Imagination Technologies, ex-AMD ?, now indie?

Robert Menzel:
[https://twitter.com/renderpipeline](https://twitter.com/renderpipeline)

Morgan McGuire:
[https://twitter.com/CasualEffects](https://twitter.com/CasualEffects)

