
Why you can’t read 9to5Mac on Instapaper - uptown
http://9to5mac.com/2012/09/10/dont-call-it-instascraper-why-you-cant-read-9to5mac-on-instapaper/
======
achompas
This really, really sucks. I like Marco's take on development (both software
and career) and entrepreneurship, and he has a "no bullshit" approach to
technology.

But what the heck is going on today? He questions The Verge's integrity
(despite having nothing more than the absence of a iMac/HP Spectre One
comment), tries to backpedal on it, then starts blocking sites he's feuding
with?

Lame. He's normally the most level-headed of the popular Mac bloggers.

~~~
cjensen
I don't understand any defense of the Verge here.

HP comes out with an all-in-one. Instead of resembling a generic monitor,
which would be the obvious choice for a computer meant to look like a simple
display, it resembles an iMac to a bizarre degree. (Note: I don't even like
how the iMac looks)

How do you defend writing a long article about it without mentioning the
resemblance even once? I'm not suggesting motives; I just can't understand it.
Yes, I've heard the "oh it was obvious so it didn't need to be said" defense,
I just don't get that.

~~~
commandar
As somebody that's pretty good friends with somebody that's been a long-time
writer/editor at a couple of well-known tech sites, the simple answer is they
just plain get tired of it.

These guys look at gadgets all day long. What it comes down to is they get
tired of ripping on every new gadget that comes out with "lol, they ripped off
Apple" and instead focus on other things because there's absolutely nothing
interesting about writing the same thing over and over and over again. After a
while, it _does_ get to the point that it's so obvious that pointing it out
becomes superfluous.

And I mean, in the case of the Spectre One, it's not even as direct a knock-
off as the Envy line. The stand design is bulky and inelegant compared to the
iMac. When viewed from the side or rear, it's fairly clear there are _far_
worse offenders in the "steals from Apple" category.

Which isn't to say it isn't there and it isn't a shameless aping, just that if
you look at gadgets for a living, it doesn't really stand out enough in that
regard for it to feel worth the energy to point it out.

>How do you defend writing a long article about it

This may be a bit of a nitpick, but both the posts Marco accused of shilling
for HP are under 500 words; that's not really a long piece at all.

------
JoeAcchino
I just canceled my Instapaper paying subscription.

I don't care about this story, I just care about the provider of a service
that decides to block _me_ for his personal matters.

Sorry but it just feels like an insult to me.

~~~
da_n
I do agree that if a developer has some personal beef with a website that
should not allow him/her to think they have the right to block it from their
users. Apple wouldn't dream to go as far as to block google.com or samsung.com
on their OS's for example just because they have some serious business
disagreements. The fact is though we only really have one side of the story
here, so hopefully Marco will explain his side of the story (perhaps on his
podcast <http://5by5.tv/buildanalyze>).

To be honest though I simply cannot believe he would think such a thing
acceptable, he seems like a pretty clued-in guy this would be a blunder of
epic proportions if true, there's something more to this story.

~~~
nc
For the record. Apple has pushed Google Maps off the iPhone in iOS 6. Not sure
they'll allow it either as it would 'duplicate core OS functionality'

~~~
SoftwareMaven
So were you part of the meetings that decided this? Because I could, for the
record, say that Google pulled its Maps app off of the iPhone in iOS 6.

I don't think either is an appropriate characterization of the situation. More
likely, Apple had features they wanted that Google wouldn't license (eg turn
by turn), so Apple decided to develop its own product. The license terms of
the agreement for which Apple was paying Google included shipping the Google
Maps app, so when Apple decided not to renew the agreement, they had to stop
shipping a product called Google Maps.

~~~
adgar
> Because I could, for the record, say that Google pulled its Maps app off of
> the iPhone in iOS 6.

Someone with in-depth knowledge of the licensing agreements! You must know
exactly what happened, based on your assertion of credentials, here.

> More likely, Apple had features they wanted that Google wouldn't license (eg
> turn by turn)

Wouldn't? Or couldn't? Do you know? Do you care? It seems your mind is made up
despite _not_ having the inside knowledge you assert.

~~~
SoftwareMaven
You're right, I don't know (don't care, either). I was _trying_ to make a
point that there is probably a story that involved more than 1/2 a sentence.

My mind is not in the least way made up. I'm curious where that came from,
honestly. That's a strong assertion that I actually tried to keep out of my
post as I hypothesized what I saw as a plausible scenario given only whats
been in the media.

I have no clue, and I highly doubt anybody posting here does, either.

~~~
adgar
> That's a strong assertion that I actually tried to keep out of my post as I
> hypothesized what I saw as a plausible scenario given only whats been in the
> media.

You said it was "more likely," implying you had some reason to believe it
besides what people say on the Internet.

~~~
SoftwareMaven
That's a good point. My intention was that it was more likely that there was a
much richer story than "X is trying to screw Y". Thanks for explaining so I
can make my comments closer to what I'm trying to say.

------
kemayo
Adding editorial opinions to Instapaper seems like a Bad Idea. People using it
just want to read content, and being told "I disagree with this site" is only
going to piss them off.

~~~
ojiikun
Worse yet, how many users will write it off as a technical error, shrug, close
the window, and move on to read other things? Instapaper has found a way to
stifle the readership and mindshare of whomever they choose, that, for non-HN
readers could have it's cause masked from view.

------
tptacek
Marco Arment made a mistake here. I know the feeling well. He will get over
it, and so will all of you.

Is there much more to say about it than that?

I will never understand why people personalize so much what what Arment says.
He's an independent developer; he's one of us. He happens to like iOS more
than a lot of HN'ers. "Liking the wrong operating system" seems like a much
smaller sin than "shitting all over an indie developer".

~~~
danilocampos
> I will never understand why people personalize so much what what Arment
> says.

Perhaps because his writing, frequently obnoxious and bereft of charm, makes
him very easy to dislike. Even for people like myself who might otherwise
agree with his positions.

------
jser
As a long time Instapaper user, I've been slowly migrating to Pocket since
they released multi-page saving, but now plan to move completely.

The Instapaper error message should at least be more truthful, or the opt-out
list made public so you know restrictions before purchasing the application.

~~~
jedc
I just started using Pocket, and have found it a much nicer experience than
Instapaper all around. This reminds me to take the Instapaper button off my
bookmarks bar...

------
Avenger42
In an email to Buzzfeed, Marco stated (as he posted on Twitter) that it was
9to5Mac's willingness to write potentially libelous statements that he didn't
want to deal with:

...I really don't foresee doing this for any other site unless they explicitly
request it. What 9to5 has consistently written about me and Instapaper goes
far beyond what's acceptable, is potentially libelous, and could cause
potential legal issues. This has never happened to this degree from any other
site, and would certainly never happen from a professionally run publication.
I will not tolerate their behavior or the potential legal risks of interacting
with 9to5 or Seth at all, so I removed the ability for Instapaper to interact
with their site.

[edit] Marco's tweet:
<https://twitter.com/marcoarment/status/245163432758878208>

~~~
MisterBastahrd
Sounds like someone wants to be a big shot but doesn't have a thick enough
skin to deal with criticism. His app is completely worthless without other
people's content.

~~~
kmfrk
I think, trying to read through the pettiness and petulance of it all, that
Marco has a fine point to be argued. He just makes it in a really insufferable
way.

~~~
dasil003
He _had_ a fine point to be argued until he brought it into his app
functionality. Seriously, not only is that is ridiculously childish, but it's
totally unnecessary—he has the audience to make his point in full editorial
glory. If it's libel then sic a lawyer on them, don't play games with your
user base, most of whom don't and shouldn't give a fuck.

~~~
kmfrk
Blocking someone describing your product as tantamount to illegal activity
(scraping) is cheaper than lawyering up.

Marco's current problem is that he's put himself in such a bloviating position
that relenting and whitelisting 9to5Mac is going to make him look like a huge
idiot.

Someone with a thicker skin would probably have asked the guys whether they
really thought Instapaper was illegal, and whether Marco should disable
Instapaper support for them. That way, he wouldn't be editorializing his
articles.

This measure also creates a precedent where site owners can petition him to
disable support for their website - which, taken far enough, is going to make
Instapaper very undesirable to prospective users.

Those of us who've paid Marco money would rather that he didn't take a service
we've paid money for to use as a bargaining chip.

~~~
REdmanta
9to5Mac isn't the first site to describe Instapaper as scraping

NyTimes: [https://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/04/magazine/04FOB-
medium-t.h...](https://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/04/magazine/04FOB-
medium-t.html?_r=1)

Technology Review: [http://www.technologyreview.com/view/419326/why-
instapaper-w...](http://www.technologyreview.com/view/419326/why-instapaper-
will-never-be-booted-from-the/)

BusinessInsider:
[http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-09-23/tech/30193029...](http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-09-23/tech/30193029_1_business-
insider-instapaper-rss)

~~~
kmfrk
Worth saying is that at the time, The New York Times's idea of scraping was
very inclusive: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1414235>.

------
meritt
Marco is exhibiting exactly how not to act. If you want people to use your
product, you don't censor things on their behalf. That's an incredible example
of crossing the line.

------
crisnoble
Argh, why do I waste my time reading about famous devs vs. blogs vs. bloggers
vs. journalists? It's like a car crash.

I guess it is time to turn the minaway setting up...

edit: Actually it's more like watching Jersey shore. A fantasy world where
people have problems that everyone should listen to.

~~~
kmfrk
FWIW, pg blocks BuzzFeed articles, which prevented me and other people from
submitting a more unbiased article on the subject.

The whole he-said-she-said minutiae of it all are pretty dull, unless people
want to get on some kind of tired free speech horse.

~~~
crisnoble
It's not that it's dull, it's just that (today in particular) I am wasting
time reading about X famous dev vs. Y popular tech blog. I'm just lamenting
that I should be developing code because reading about X vs. Y is not helping
me to someday become an X. None of this is anyone's fault but my own.

------
aneth4
Truly shameful behavior that permanently destroys the huge amount of trust
Instapaper has built up with users. Instapaper, as any such product, is a
service to its users, not a bludgeon for political battles. That is a hard
line in the sand that once crossed reveals a lack of integrity from the
operators.

------
dpearson
Neither side especially comes off well in all of this. 9to5mac misspelled his
name? I don't see how that's especially funny (and it is childish), but Arment
needs to lighten up about that. I also don't see how even the accusations
regarding the servers the FBI seized hold water, but there is a polite way to
deal with it (read: not blocking a site and making it look like anyone but you
is at fault).

Ultimately, I'll still use Instapaper as long as Arment keeps making a quality
app and keeps his personal choices out of what I see in the app.

~~~
Avenger42
Marco's response on Twitter seemed to indicate that people had, in fact,
already begun to blame him for the UDID leak. At the very least, that's a
foreseeable reaction to publishing a story claiming a potential link.

~~~
prawn
Something Marco did himself, even calling that app "a likely culprit" - which
is pretty strong wording.

------
macrael
Marco has posted an apology: <http://blog.instapaper.com/post/31303984531>

~~~
aneth4
The apology doesn't reflect an understanding of the gravity of what he did. He
mostly apologizes for using the wrong mechanism and generally overreacting,
not for the betrayal of his users and the abuse of power for personal reasons.

------
dmishe
What's the point of the service, if its author can selectively disable
functionality for his own reasons, whatever they be?

~~~
mdonahoe
What is the point of commenting if pg could hellban you from HN whenever he
wants?

Because the service is useful, and incidents are rare.

~~~
dmishe
But pg doesn't take money for this.

------
melvinmt
So Mr. Marco is upset by some blog and that's why I can't use it in
Instapaper? I don't even read 9to5mac but it's reason enough for me to cancel
my Instapaper account.

Are there any alternatives I should know about?

~~~
SCdF
Pocket is fairly popular: <http://getpocket.com/>

~~~
michaelhoffman
I came here to recommend Pocket. Free. Natively supports iOS, Android,
Firefox, Chrome (and has bookmarklet and other web app support for anything
else). No ideological baggage or jerkiness.

~~~
wyclif
Pocket, because it's bullshit-free.

------
shinratdr
Developers don't like being branded as scrapers, as it carries the implication
that the service in question is stealing content from others to provide its
service.

The absolute worst thing Instapaper can be accused of is implementing an old-
Readability style function that strips pages of non-article content, most
frequently ads.

By that definition Safari Reader is a scraper, so is AdBlock, Reeder, or any
other app that tries to improve on the average abysmal reading environment
most websites provide.

~~~
Kylekramer
I am a major fan and paying user of Instapaper and similar services. But how
are they not stealing content from others to provide their services? Read it
later apps are useless without content. Websites may provide an abysmal
reading experience, but it is their property and they can present it as they
please. Even if I don't like it and prefer to use Instapaper, it is still
theft of a certain kind. So, yes, Instapaper/Safari Reader/Adblock/Reeder are
scrapers in my estimation.

~~~
icebraining
Copying, not stealing.

~~~
Kylekramer
Eh, I hate arguing this point cause I find myself doing it a lot and never
really getting anywhere interesting, but here goes. I believe copyright
infringement is a subset of stealing. The common definition of stealing is
taking something you don't own without permission. The fact that the owner
still has a copy is immaterial. Acting like depriving the owner of their copy
is a necessary component of stealing is just a remnant of a time where it was
much harder to make perfect copy of valuable property. I know the copy vs.
steal debate is touchy, but I also feel it is just a distraction from the
larger issue.

~~~
icebraining
In most copyright infringements, the infringers are either sharing what they
legally bought and own or accepting something that was shared with them and
sharing it themselves. There is never any "taking" involved, for any
definition of the word.

------
hctilg
Wow. Why is he acting so childish. He shouldn't be taking personal matters and
forcing them on users.

------
azar1
Looks like today is International Fuck Marco Arment day.

(no disrespect meant to Marco)

~~~
runjake
To be fair, he's mostly instigating it himself with incendiary posts and
tweets. I can't keep up with how many people he's told to f--- off in the past
48 hours.

~~~
zachinglis
Marco has a history of doing this. He's a developer, and an opinionated one at
that (which is saying something for us guys.)

His actions here stink of foul play rather than any genuine worry. Maybe he
has another side to this – but if he does, telling people to fuck off isn't
the way around it.

~~~
TillE
> He's a developer, and an opinionated one at that

Too often this is a euphemism for "he's a jerk who's unwilling to consider
anyone else's perspective or requirements".

You can kinda get away with that in software development if you're incredibly
smart, but it's an awful attitude to bring to any other part of your life.

------
donohoe
I can completely understand Marcos reaction here. 9to5/Seth seems to have been
persistently badgering him. For example (Seth's words):

    
    
      But in updating, I spelled his name wrong —”Marcus Armento”—as a laugh.
    

and..

    
    
      I also linked to his Tweet above about spelling his name wrong and the funny replies it received.
    

and more...

    
    
      I (also jokingly) called his app “Instascraper,” which publishers often 
      call the app because it removes ads from the websites it views. “Scraping”
      is what publishers call bots and other robot services that strip content
      from a site and republish it without any financial payment
    

That was in addition to the stories of Instapaper as a source of the leaked
UDIDs and previous unflattering commentary.

Marco isn't completely blameless, however I completely understand why he was
upset. Banning 9to5 was a step too far however he realized his mistake and
owned up to it.

Dare I ask - what else do you want?

------
tvladeck
It's also worth noting that the popup is _still_ a lie. Instapaper _can_ save
articles from 9to5Mac, but chooses not to. It's an important distinction for
the user, who probably will think that it is something wrong with 9to5Mac.

------
cjensen
9to5Mac, a notoriously unreliable rag, claims Marco is censoring them. I
should believe them... why?

There are sites Instapaper does not scrape. For example, ArsTechnica does not
allow scraping of full articles. Instapaper respects this whereas other
scrapers ignore ArsTechnica and scrape anyway.

My point is, just because Instapaper refuses to scrape a site does not
automatically mean censorship has occurred.

~~~
FrankBooth
C'mon, do some basic research before posting. This has already been well
covered in this very thread.

<https://twitter.com/marcoarment/status/245163180479885312>
<https://twitter.com/marcoarment/status/245165731120033792>

~~~
cjensen
I read the link at the top of the article, which failed to explain it. Should
I have realized that since the linked article is 9to5, it would of course have
failed to present the basic facts underlying it's own article?

