

Where Did All the Girl Geeks Go? - edw519
http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Careers/Where-Did-All-the-Girl-Geeks-Go/

======
roadtripgeek
We're still here. Based on my personal experience, there are plenty of reasons
why geek girls are avoiding CS. For starters, I've had to deal with a few of
my classmates make lame jokes,like boobs and brains being an inverse ratio and
following that up with "Oh hey, you're not flat chested. Haha." It's a no win
situation for me. If I complain, I'm too sensitive. If I say something back,
I'm a bitch. I've also had problems with one of my professors, who seemed
think women only took CS classes because they were gold diggers in search of a
MRS degree. Most of the guys in my classes are decent, if occasionally awkward
when we do group projects together. But the ones who aren't tend to be the
ones who go out of their way to be an ass.

I think the article nailed it with this quote: "These roles would probably be
ideal for women who prefer to be in communication-focused roles, if they know
computer science and can communicate to all parties involved." My husband and
several of our friends work at the same company. They are write code. All the
women on their floor are relegated to "communication-focused" roles, like
project/product managers. I've also run into this when people at my husband's
office ask what I'm majoring in. When I say computer science, everyone's
reaction is "Great! We could always use another project manager! You should
talk to so and so about an internship." They look sort of baffled when I
explain that no, I want to write code, not manage coders.

~~~
timr
_"They look sort of baffled when I explain that no, I want to write code, not
manage coders."_

Not to condescend, but that will change in ten years.

I base this not on your gender, but on the observation that there are very few
old programmers. Everyone debates the reason for this (i.e. is it age
discrimination, or is it programmer preference?) but the fact remains that
_most_ programmers end up doing other things as they age.

~~~
edw519
"there are very few old programmers"

"most programmers end up doing other things as they age"

You base these statements upon what data? Your own observations? Then maybe
you need another set of glasses.

There are several million hackers that would disagree with you. Too bad you
haven't had a chance to meet too many of them. Probably would have been
interesting for both of you.

~~~
timr
How about the fact that, a decade out of university, all of my programmer
friends have moved into management or other fields?

Where's _your_ data?

~~~
amichail
What's wrong with managing programmers? If you really want to, I'm sure you
can contribute some code as well.

~~~
roadtripgeek
There's nothing wrong with managing programmers. It was just the assumption
that I didn't want to "get my hands dirty" because I was female that bothered
me.

I don't know if it's common for project managers to contribute code in other
companies. At husband's company, it is pretty much unheard of for for a
project manager to write code. Project manager tends to be more of a technical
writing/managerial position in his company. There's nothing wrong with that.
But I have no wish to be a full time technical writer/manager.

~~~
amichail
At a company such as Microsoft, you can become a software architect. This
means you can focus on the major design issues and have developers implement
your design. You can write code, but you don't have to write that much.

As you grow older, you will want to write less code and focus more on software
architecture and management of programmers.

~~~
roadtripgeek
Ah, ok. That makes more sense, although it is quite different from what my
husband's company considers "managing coders" to be. That does sound more in
line with what I want to do long term. Thanks for giving me a different view.

------
Tichy
"There's a perception that being a computer science major leads to a job as a
programmer and you sit in a cubicle where you type 12 hours a day and have no
interactions with other people"

Sounds pretty accurate to me...

~~~
wallflower
Actually, entering my first job at a large software company, I was pleasantly
surprised by how many people maintained lives outside their jobs. Fixing up
houses, teaching Sunday school, racing bikes, volunteering. I believe a hobby
is not really a hobby if its what you do for a living. And when Halloween
rolls around, I'm reminded how many people have real responsibility (e.g.
Children)

------
DaniFong
"Some studies have shown that as soon as girls turn 12—and maybe now it is
even younger—they're so into their social image and being liked by boys that
they dumb themselves down so not to be seen as a geek," Yusupova said."

I wonder if this has more to do with western high schools than our culture at
large. I dropped out _on my twelfth birthday_. While I did encounter social
pressure to move into more sanctioned roles, this was opposed by teachers
encouraging me to find what I liked and do it well. I was very lucky -- this
isn't something afforded to most high schoolers. It has helped me grow into
these interests.

~~~
xlnt
gender stereotyping by parents begins at birth.

~~~
DaniFong
That's true. But stereotyping happens by degrees.

------
iamdave
Call me crazy and out of touch with reality, and this is only partly off
topic: but I'm one of those guys who still doesn't understand why people go
bonkers to see a girl who knows her way around a computer, much less plays a
video game.

Then again, my current love interest is a Network Security student so...maybe
I'm just naive anyway.

~~~
Tichy
It's nice to be able to share things. Presumably it could also get too much
(computer stuff all the time), but couples of the same profession seem to be
quite common. Besides, computers are among the most interesting things,
especially because most other things can be analyzed in terms of computers.

~~~
yters
People aren't analyzable by computers, at least on an individual basis. Women
tend to be more interested in individual relationships than men, and you can't
have a relationship with a computer.

In my opinion, it is pretty obvious from the clearly differing motivations of
the genders why there is such a gender divide in academics. Maybe it has to do
with intelligence, but "intelligence" seems to largely be determined by what a
person loves and focuses their time on, i.e. genius is 1% inspiration and 99%
perspiration.

Today, we measure intelligence in quantitative/technical terms, and men are
much more interested in technical subjects than women. Who memorizes thousands
of intricate statistics about hundreds of people they'll never meet? Who gets
bored stiff by that stuff and wants to share personal experiences instead? The
difference here is quantitative vs qualitative.

So, again, I think it's pretty obvious why there are barely any women geeks.
People only think it is a big issue because they think it is important for
women to be self determined, and you have to be technically smart to succeed
in what we consider success (career, wealth, material goods, etc). I think our
modern worldview is way too narrow.

~~~
demallien
"Women tend to be more interested in individual relationships than men, and
you can't have a relationship with a computer."

OK, firstly, my Mac started crying when he read that. Poor mac!

Secondly, the broad generalisations that you make about men and women is
exactly the problem. Here's a hint: Women working in IT, and particularly
programming, are there precisely because we too are interested in technical
subjects and having very analytical minds. The problem is, as roadtripgeek has
already alluded to, men see us in the workplace, and make the assumption that
we are just like the hairdresser, or the secretary that they talk to on coffee
breaks: into communications more than cold hard code.

I look at my situation. My entire floor at the ofice is taken up by
programmers and their direct managers. I am the only woman on the floor. It's
not the technical conversations that get me, it's all the other crap. Guys
that want to talk about poker, or brewing beer, or the football results, or
how they got lucky with a hot babe in the carpark of the Sheraton last
weekend. Or it's when they decide to use a clip from a porno film as the test
flow for a new product that we are working on. Or the fact that a few of the
guys have decided that, seeing as I'm the only woman on the floor, that I
shouldn't have a bathroom all to myself, and who won't even put the damned
seat back down after they have finished pissing!

It's all that crap that makes IT unattractive for women, not the actual work
itself.

Personally, like many of us here on HN, I'm working on my exit strategy - work
for myself, where I can still code my little heart out, without having to put
up with all the male bonding crap that I'm automatically excluded from in the
workplace.

Owning a startup FTW...

~~~
Tichy
Voted up for the crying Mac, but other than that I have to say you dish out
just as many stereotypes as you complain about receiving. I am male but I
don't care about beer or football, and I would never spread porn in the
workplace. If I got lucky with hot babes frequently, maybe I would brag about
it - but I wonder, what exactly would you be interested in talking about with
men? Seems to me that relationship issues are one of the common themes of
human conversation.

~~~
demallien
_blink_

Stereotypes? Where? I wasn't making generalisations, I was describing my daily
work environment! The fact that you identify that environment as being
stereotypically male rather proves my point, don't you think?

~~~
Tichy
It just sounds as if you should switch jobs. Certainly not all men/IT
departments are like that.

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tonystubblebine
Liz Lawley is a good advocate for geek women and runs this Women in Tech group
blog: <http://www.misbehaving.net/>

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bumbledraven
This thread is useless w/out pics

