
Mirror test shows magpies are self aware - fiaz
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14552-mirror-test-shows-magpies-arent-so-birdbrained.html?DCMP=ILC-hmts&nsref=news4_head_dn14552
======
mattjones
I don't think "self-aware" is the right way to summarize the results of these
tests. One thing that this article doesn't say is that the mirror test is
geared toward animals with good vision systems, and therefore is, to a large
extent, testing spacial reasoning and visual acuity. Birds have great vision
systems. It's necessary for flight, and also for picking out specks of food
from a distance. A lot of mammals that are quite intelligent have poor vision
-- like mustelids, for instance. The mirror test would make little sense for
them.

There are other ways to be aware of your self besides through some complex
optical phenomenon. For example, an animal might be aware of whether it can
fit through that hole, jump up to that ledge, kill that enemy, or stand on
that branch without breaking it. It might be aware of whether other creatures
are able to see it inside its hideout, or if its cubs are hurt by its bite.
"Self" is a rather broad and subtle thing.

------
shadytrees
> Of hundreds tested, in addition to humans, only four apes, bottlenose
> dolphins and Asian elephants have passed muster.

Asian elephants studied the night before.

------
jdoliner
Having just completed a course in which this was one of the major topics of
discussion I feel I can perhaps help to clear a few things up. Generally we
consider the mark test to signify self awareness. What's important in the test
is that in order to past the animal must realize that the creature is them.
Human's have trouble seeing what a jump this is since it's very easy for us.

The example of robots, while probably more interesting to the members of this
board is different in that these robots were instructed how to recognize
themselves by humans that know they exist. They didn't have to make the jump
of the concept of self by themselves. Unfortunately as is characteristic of
softer sciences I really can't make this distinction any harder so take it or
leave it.

An the other hand 5 magpies is a pretty pathetic sample size. Even picture
perfect results have a 1/32 chance of occurring with random behaviour. I think
we can rest assured that the next article on this topic will not include
Magpies in its list of previous successes.

------
ComputerGuru
This is the second headline in recent days that's made me go "hey, I already
knew about this!"

I had a ring-necked parrot who, upon seeing himself in the mirror, would
instantly burst into the most beautiful song; with sounds that I'd never heard
him make before - not in the presence of humans _or_ other birds.

The second headline (<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7541633.stm>)
- "Dogs Can Catch Humans' Yawns" claiming that dogs are contagious to humans
yawns (an indication of perception and empathy) which is something that I've
seen in friends' pet dogs _and_ my own cats for years now, and assumed it was
just one of those things everyone knew but no one talked about.

Makes one wonder, if these scientists spent a bit more time in "the real
world" and less in their books and papers if we couldn't relieve some of our
ignorance about the world around us.

~~~
electromagnetic
The parrot you had might not recognise itself in the mirror, as it might be
trying to impress its reflection.

However, I'd really like to see this performed on an African Grey, as the one
in the local pet store is surprisingly smart as it actually amuses itself by
speaking. This isn't how it sounds; people go up to it and say hello -because-
it's a parrot, and it never says anything except when the store owner says
hello. Yet when someone goes to walk away it'll say hello or meow (yep it
meowed at my girlfriend's mum) at them and they'll turn back to try and talk
to it again. They'll give up and it'll say hello/meow again and will keep
doing this until it gets bored and moves to a different part of the store.

I'd like to see an explination as to how the african grey seems to have a
sense of humour. I've heared all the "it's been trained to" dismissals, yet it
does it of its own volition as it's left to roam the store and the owner
barely works there. It's not like it gets a treat as I've spent an hour in
there and it does it to select people. I just can't figure it out, and I've
heared repeatedly that people see a sense of humour in them.

~~~
helveticaman
I've heard parrots are one of the smartest animals around. I think it's
because being able to talk is complex and means a transcendental difference in
terms of abstraction, even for birds.

------
ars
Not self-aware. Self-recognition. It's not the same thing.

~~~
fiaz
but if you recognize yourself doesn't that mean that you have some concept of
"self" and therefore "aware of self"?

~~~
hugh
Not necessarily. It wouldn't be all that difficult to construct a robot which
could recognize its own reflection, but I don't think that would count as
"self-awareness".

update: Just read another post in this thread which implies somebody's already
done that.

------
electromagnetic
The article has one very misleading mistake. Four [types] of apes have been
able to see themselves in mirrors, not four apes as I watched a video of IIRC
eight apes, four male and four female, who used mirrors for self grooming,
playing with makeup and a number of other things along with a demonstration of
the spot test.

However, I think two were used to show that apes under a certain age couldn't
recognise themselves, just like humans under a certain age can't. This was
likely to show that apes have an intelligence higher than an 18 month old.

------
hendler
Ok, so maybe AI will be "self aware" some day too.

Until then, I'd like to have GW and Hanna Montana studied.

~~~
cdr
Actually, I recall reading about a research robot that (among other things)
could recognize itself.

~~~
hendler
Is recognizing one's self what "self aware" means?
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness>
<http://www.answers.com/topic/self-awareness>

Maybe these are the robots: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMkHYE9-R0A>

