
This Pizzeria Is Not a Child-Trafficking Site - danso
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/21/technology/fact-check-this-pizzeria-is-not-a-child-trafficking-site.html
======
dang
All: we've closed this thread to new accounts. I don't like to do that but
it's sometimes necessary to counteract abuse of this site.

If you have a new account and you'd like to comment in the thread (in good
faith of course), you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll help.

------
hyperion2010
When I want to know which way the wind is blowing I take a trip down to 4chan.
Not because they know anything about the outside world, but because there are
many who frequent the site who have an almost intuitive understanding of how
to manipulate the presentation of information on the internet for maximum
effect. Why? No idea, but maybe it has something to do with the fact that the
only way to keep your thread for vanishing into the realm of the overlooked
and 404ed is to post just the right combination of words and pictures to draw
the attention of hundreds of different brains. Adverse selection at its
finest.

~~~
tnones
It's also a great place for motivated actors to pour gasoline on some minor
embers and turn them into a wildfire, allowing an irrelevant minority to seem
like a representative majority.

------
adevine
I'm kind of saddened and dismayed by the number of comments that need to be
downvoted into oblivion in this thread. I really appreciate that Hacker News
is a place where I can _learn_ something from other points of view, and where
even if I disagree with someone, a lot of times I will gain an appreciation
for their way of thinking.

But now with a number of comments insinuating that somehow this story is
invalid because it's reported by NYT, and NYT is the _real_ fake news, is
baffling and infuriating. I think the NYT may have some problems, but blithely
and falsely reporting that a presidential candidate is running a child sex
ring out of a pizza parlor isn't one of them.

~~~
MollyR
Pizzagate has a disturbing laywerlike blow-by-blow rebuttal
[https://www.reddit.com/r/pizzagate/comments/5ebh01/a_blowbyb...](https://www.reddit.com/r/pizzagate/comments/5ebh01/a_blowbyblow_indepth_factcheck_of_the_new_york/)

I guess the comments about the new right being technocrats may be true.

~~~
freebish
That reddit group was just banned, 23 November, 00:01 UTC

~~~
75j
Wow, I saw that this morning. I really wonder what effect it will have. For
now the discussion will move to r/conspiracy, and possibly voat.co.

Will they ban r/conspiracy too? I'll delete my reddit account instantly and
never visit the site again if they do.

------
jknoepfler
I can't be alone in thinking that every individual who participated in or
retweeted or whatever that information ought to be personally financially and
criminally liable for their actions. If not every person, then pick the nodes
in the graph that have the highest fanout.

If you knowingly post and spread damaging fake information (deliberately
engineered to accuse people of child molestation) on the internet, you have
committed a crime, and you should be subject to both civil and criminal
action.

You are responsible for the things you write online. This is no different from
"yelling 'FIRE!' in a crowded theatre."

~~~
Gargoyle
>If you knowingly post and spread damaging fake information (deliberately
engineered to accuse people of child molestation) on the internet[...]

What you're missing here is that they genuinely believe it to be true. As
incredible as that may seem to you and me, that is the reality of it.

I've actually been lurking in r/pizzagate since the start, watching in horror
and fascination as people convince themselves of the most outrageous things.
But they're convincing themselves, and they do actually believe.

~~~
defgeneric
Can confirm they really do believe.

I've also been a lurker, and I thought it was a joke at the start--and it
probably was--but watching it bootstrap itself was fascinating.

~~~
75j
I have also been amused by all the delusional assertions on 4chan and
r/pizzagate, and I feel sorry for anyone innocent caught up in this, but this
whole thing would have never caught on if there weren't real connections
between the Clintons and child sex offenders.

Bill Clinton really did ride on a child sex trafficker's private jet 26 times,
and really went to his private island where underage girls have alleged that
they were enslaved. It's also true that underaged-sexter Anthony Weiner's
computer had all of Clinton's emails on it. It's true that the Podestas are
close friends with Dennis Hastert and Tony mentioned post-conviction that he's
"stayed in touch with denny Hastert [...] all these years". It's true that
Hillary and Cheryl Mills emailed repeatedly back and forth about child
trafficker Laura Silsby, with Mills referring to her only as "Laura", and that
Bill Clinton traveled to Haiti and brokered a short prison term for Silsby and
the release of the other "missionaries" involved.

So, while "pizzagate" in itself may be totally false, rumors like this would
not exist if the US did not consistently invite human garbage into its highest
political office.

~~~
hokkos
Speaking of Epstein and human garbage, I wonder why The_Donald, /pol/, never
talk about what Trump has to say about Epstein :

[http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/people/n_7912/](http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/people/n_7912/)
:

Epstein likes to tell people that he's a loner, a man who's never touched
alcohol or drugs, and one whose nightlife is far from energetic. And yet if
you talk to Donald Trump, a different Epstein emerges. "I've known Jeff for
fifteen years. Terrific guy,'' Trump booms from a speakerphone. "He's a lot of
fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do,
and many of them are on the younger side. No doubt about it -- Jeffrey enjoys
his social life."

~~~
75j
Yes, it's a sad time to be an American. For those that don't know, Trump has
been sued over allegations of raping a 13 year old girl who worked for
Epstein.

[https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/oct/12/donald-
trump...](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/oct/12/donald-trump-
jeffrey-epstein-alleged-rape-lawsuit)

------
cronjobber
It's a full blown moral panic and it isn't pretty. But it doesn't help when
the NYT simply invents a stronger version of the story right off the bat,
probably for effect:

> All of them alleged something that made Mr. Alefantis’s jaw drop: that Comet
> Ping Pong was the home base of a child abuse ring led by Hillary Clinton ...

I've heard of this story before, and I can't remember a version of it that had
_Hillary Clinton_ in that role.

I don't think making up facts for extra effect really helps debunk a story.

------
pizzathrowaway
This reminds me a lot of #SpiritCooking, which had a big effect on the
election.

For a traditional-valued person who thinks that participating in
#SpiritCooking performance art is immoral, it's not much of a stretch to
believe that the participants would also abuse children.

For those of us who are familiar with liberal culture and gay culture, Tony
Podesta's art and James Alefantis' instagram feed seems harmless. For people
with more traditional values, it's incredibly weird and degenerate.

If you're curious to read more about the pizza/pedophile theory (which I think
is nonsense, by the way), see reddit.com/r/pizzagate.

~~~
Gargoyle
As I mentioned below, I've followed this from the beginning. I was reading the
Podesta emails and following discussion in r/dncleaks when this stuff started
popping up in there. I suppose it may have started on one of the chans first,
I don't know. The "code words" list had the feel of an expert in the memetic
arts.

Anyway, I think you're right, it was the art of Tony Podesta and Alefantis
that triggered a lot of people over. There was that one article about
Podesta's collection mentioning the art photos of naked teens in his house
where they took glee in the fact they shocked guests. Having been around art
people a lot, I certainly understand the desire to provoke. Sometimes people
will get provoked. You get different reactions outside the bubble.

~~~
nkurz
I think this is the correct read. I also looked in as this story was forming,
and found it to be more evidence that there's currently a 'cultural chasm' in
America, with each side making false assumptions about 'what must follow'
based on what they see of the other side.

Here's a non-art example that I thought was culturally interesting:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/5b1qtf/comet_pi...](https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/5b1qtf/comet_ping_pong_pizzagate_summary/d9nr3k9/)

Jake Sullivan is going to New Haven for the day, and comments that he'll be
"eating some pizza". Hillary Clinton chimes in and says "Have a slice for
me!". So the question on Reddit is "WHO THE FUCK ACTUALLY CARES TO LET SOMEONE
KNOW THEY ARE GOING TO EAT PIZZA..."?

And then a couple other people on Reddit answer, well, actually, New Haven is
well known within certain circles for its excellent pizza, and actually it's
fairly common for "hipsters" to "gush" about it with their friends. But I
don't doubt that for many this sort of enthusiasm for the perfect slice is so
foreign that "pedophilia" would in fact be a more believable explanation than
"foodie".

~~~
rblatz
I'm originally from southern Ohio, Skyline Chili is a local favorite. I most
certainly am guilty of telling people that I'm going to go get chili when I'm
back visiting.

Between the left's nearly blind hatred of Trump and the right's nearly blind
hatred of Clinton I have to wonder who or what benefits from such a divided
populace.

~~~
CalChris
That is trivial equivocation. Trump and Hillary are in no sense equal.

Hillary: Yale Law grad, partner, First Lady, Senator, Secretary of State

Trump: born rich, businessman with 3500 lawsuits against him, settled fraud
charges for $25M, 4 bankruptcies, misogynist, ...

These are not the same.

Yes, I'm on the left but my hatred of Trump is not blind. Nor is my admiration
of Hillary (I voted for Bernie). Trump is an embarrassment to America and that
division you correctly point out has been created over decades by right wing
media.

------
danso
Not that I frequently jump to Yelp when something hits big on the news, but
this is the first time I've seen this "Active Cleanup Alert", currently in
effect for the pizzeria:

[https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cx1p9w_UsAAaB0L.jpg](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cx1p9w_UsAAaB0L.jpg)

[https://www.yelp.com/biz/comet-ping-pong-
washington](https://www.yelp.com/biz/comet-ping-pong-washington)

I was just going to say, "Seems like this is new since that one dentist killed
the famous lion", but I guess these alerts started at around that time:
[http://www.thesempost.com/yelp-adds-new-active-cleanup-
alert...](http://www.thesempost.com/yelp-adds-new-active-cleanup-alerts-for-
local-businesses-in-the-news/)

Meanwhile, Google seems to be putting in little effort to block the brigading
of its place reviews:
[http://i.imgur.com/e6uCqan.png](http://i.imgur.com/e6uCqan.png)

------
camperman
There are a number of factual errors with this article.

"He found dozens of made-up articles about Mrs. Clinton kidnapping, molesting
and trafficking children in the restaurant’s back rooms."

There are no articles that claim Mrs. Clinton has been doing this. Not dozens
- zero.

"While Mr. Alefantis has some prominent Democratic friends in Washington"

Yeah, and the Titanic was just a boat. Alefantis was named one of the Top 50
Influential People in Washington D.C. by GQ magazine. Because he is. The
article mentions this later.

"was a supporter of Mrs. Clinton, he has never met her,"

This is highly unlikely. Not only has he visited the White House hundreds of
times, he received a personally signed letter from Hillary Clinton for
catering at a fundraiser at John Podesta's house. He displayed this letter on
his Instagram, along with many images of children that raise plenty of red
flags. Why not link to these and let readers decide for themselves?

"Amanda Kleinman, whose band, Heavy Breathing, has performed there several
times, deleted her Twitter account after the abusive comments became
overwhelming."

Perhaps the author could link to some of Amanda Kleinman's videos which
contain single frame images of torture, famous pedophiles and child
exploitation images?

"His customers include some high-powered locals, such as Tony Podesta, the
brother of John Podesta, whom Mr. Alefantis knows casually."

Casually? Then why are there photos of them together at functions at Comet
Ping Pong? John Podesta's emails have conversations which are highly
disturbing to the casual reader. Why not show us some examples to see what the
fuss is?

At this stage, all evidence for there being a pedo ring operating out of
Washington D.C (with Comet Ping Pong playing a major role) is only
circumstantial. But there is a LOT of it, literally hundreds of data points.

~~~
nkurz
_There are a number of factual errors with this article._

I agree completely with your complaints about the NYT article: it's terrible
reporting, and essentially a PR release. Personally, I'm bothered most by the
failure to mention that Alefantis is listed in GQ's Top 50 Influential People
in DC, and the implication that he's a powerless pizza store owner. But I
don't think the problem is that it's not "factual", rather it's being
selective about which facts to mention so as to persuade the reader in a
particular direction.

 _Why not link to these and let readers decide for themselves?_

I'm pretty sure that the author believes that "nothing to see here" is the
correct conclusion, and fears that the readers, not understanding the
situation as well as she does, will reach the wrong conclusions. I'd guess the
author has personal connections to some of the people involved, and is
confident in her judgement that the accusations are false. This is essentially
the definition of 'elitism', but the author's logic is likely correct.

 _At this stage, all evidence for there being a pedo ring operating out of
Washington D.C (with Comet Ping Pong playing a major role) is only
circumstantial. But there is a LOT of it, literally hundreds of data points._

Not only circumstantial, but really flimsy. While it might strike people as
unfathomable that their government officials could actually be preoccupied
with finding the best 'cheese pizza', this really isn't evidence that 'cheese
pizza' equals 'child pornography'. One could argue that it's consistent with
the behavior of a ring of pedophiles, but unless you've started with the
conclusion that you are probably dealing with pedophiles, even 100 similar
data points still don't add up to a likelihood that approaches the chance of a
false positive.

So what's the solution? I have no idea.

~~~
camperman
> but the author's logic is likely correct.

She was confident in her judgement that the UVA Rape On Campus story that
disgraced Rolling Stone was true as well. It wasn't. Oops.

> Not only circumstantial, but really flimsy.

Decide for yourself then:

James Alefantis posts suggestive pictures of children on his Instagram AND He
makes lewd comments about them AND Many of his friends do too AND Some of
those friends are into weird things like making child-sized coffins AND
There's FBI-confirmed pedophile codes and symbols everywhere AND Alefantis
knows John Podesta WHO is into Spirit Cooking with Marina Abramovic AND
Podesta hangs disturbing child abuse-style art on his wall AND He likes
artists who produce disturbing images of abuse AND His emails have masonic
images hidden in the attachments AS WELL AS Pictures of children with notes
saying "Happy Birthday John" AND contacts of his mail him with messages
promising "entertainment" from the young children in the pool AND He and his
brother look EXACTLY like the photofits of two men who abducted Madeleine
McCann in 2007 AND they were connected to the McCanns through a mutual friend
who lived nearby AND ....

I haven't even started with Hillary yet.

> but unless you've started with the conclusion that you are probably dealing
> with pedophiles, even 100 similar data points still don't add up to a
> likelihood that approaches the chance of a false positive.

This is not statistics. It's deduction. Given all of these facts, which
hypothesis best fits them?

~~~
nkurz
_She was confident in her judgement that the UVA Rape On Campus story that
disgraced Rolling Stone was true as well._

Then she was wrong there, and she could be wrong here too. But I think the
greater commonality between the cases is that the "very difficult to believe
events" turned out in the end to be false.

 _Decide for yourself then_

I did. I read the thread, I watched the birthday video, and I read some of the
suggestive emails (I even quoted one in a different comment here). I'm sure
I've missed a lot, but my conclusion from the parts that I saw was that it's
still extremely unlikely that Podesta is involved in pedophilia, and quite
unlikely that any of the other named parties close to him are either.

 _This is not statistics. It 's deduction. Given all of these facts, which
hypothesis best fits them?_

I think the most likely explanation is that the supposed points of evidence
are misunderstandings due to massive cultural differences. In particular, I
think the correlation between all the points of evidence you raise and the
actual behavior of pedophiles is very low, and the conjunction of 100 such
points is still overwhelmed by one's prior beliefs. Section 17 of Scott
Alexander's recent article trying to explain why accusing Trump of being
racist is counterproductive is relevant to this point:
[http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/11/16/you-are-still-crying-
wo...](http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/11/16/you-are-still-crying-wolf/)

But we'll see. I could be wrong. I still have (barely) enough faith in the
world to believe that if Reddit's interpretation is true, the truth will
eventually come out.

~~~
camperman
> But I think the greater commonality between the cases is that the "very
> difficult to believe events" turned out in the end to be false.

The cases have literally nothing to do with each other. That Cecilia Kang has
authored falsehoods about both changes nothing about the facts of either.

> but my conclusion from the parts that I saw was that it's still extremely
> unlikely that Podesta is involved in pedophilia, and quite unlikely that any
> of the other named parties close to him are either.

It's easy to just scratch the surface and conclude that there's nothing to see
here.

> I think the most likely explanation is that the supposed points of evidence
> are misunderstandings due to massive cultural differences. In particular, I
> think the correlation between all the points of evidence you raise and the
> actual behavior of pedophiles is very low, and the conjunction of 100 such
> points is still overwhelmed by one's prior beliefs.

Except that the pedophile ring theory explains every single data point
perfectly. Your theory doesn't explain anything.

> I still have (barely) enough faith in the world to believe that if Reddit's
> interpretation is true, the truth will eventually come out.

I hoped I was wrong. I don't think I am :(

~~~
echaozh
You know, ordinary people may have massive cultural differences with
pedophiles.

Jokes aside, anything can be explained by massive cultural differences. Taking
more wives, marrying underaged girls can be considered civilized so long as
there are enough people backing it up.

------
guelo
The fake news thing is really starting to dampen my faith in democracy.
There's just no way to counteract it in the age of viral media. It's the DDoS
of the political sphere. And it's a national security threat since countries
can use it to undermine each other's elections. If democracy doesn't work
maybe the best we can hope for is a competent benevolent autocratic state.
Maybe China is the right model after all.

~~~
matt_wulfeck
Sounds a bit melodramatic. Maybe you're having a hard time understanding why
your country voted for someone with whom you have fundamental disagreements?

I'm perfectly capapable of considering the pros and cons of a candidate and
making a judgement about their ability to lead the country in a direction I
think is desired thank you. It's amazing to me that everyone living in a
"coastal citidel" is still so absolutely flabbergasted that 2016 went to the
Republicans.

The people that voted for Trump are not like you. If everyone wants to hold on
to the narrative that they were a bunch of racicists motivated by fake
Facebook posts or Russia then so be it. That type of thinking lost 2016 and it
will lose 2020 also.

~~~
guelo
It's not a partisan complaint. I've seen plenty of fake stories circulating on
the left too. Though the conspiracy theories seem much more elaborate on the
right.

------
nkurz
I saw this mentioned in the Wikileaks AMA in Reddit, and it seemed so
ridiculous that I felt compelled to look at what was being said. My conclusion
was that that it wasn't a joke --- the people doing the research on Reddit
genuinely believed what they were writing, and while likely wrong about the
specifics of all their accusations, they in fact might have discovered enough
oddities to be justified in thinking that "something just wasn't right".

For example, here's an example of the sort of email they felt might be 'coded'
pedophilia:

 _With enormous gratitude to Advance Man Extraordinaire Haber, I am popping up
again to share our excitement about the Reprise of Our Gang’s visit to the
farm in Lovettsville. And I thought I’d share a couple more notes: We plan to
heat the pool, so a swim is a possibility. Bonnie will be Uber Service to
transport Ruby, Emerson, and Maeve Luzzatto (11, 9, and almost 7) so you’ll
have some further entertainment, and they will be in that pool for sure. And
with the forecast showing prospects of some sun, and a cooler temp of lower
60s, I suggest you bring sweaters of whatever attire will enable us to use our
outdoor table with a pergola overhead so we dine al fresco (and ideally not
al-CHILLo)._

[https://wikileaks.org/podesta-
emails/emailid/10052](https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/10052)

While I'm almost certain that a message sent to a listserv talking about
transporting "Ruby, Emerson, and Maeve Luzzatto (11, 9, and almost 7) so
you’ll have some further entertainment" is just a way of encouraging people to
bring their own children of similar age by pointing out that there will be
other kids attending, I can see that the odd phrasing might raise suspicion in
some contexts. One of those contexts would be finding out that some of the
people involved in the email chain are "friends of friends" of people who in
fact have been convicted of child molestation, and it seems possible that this
is indeed the case. At the least, it seems to be something they believe they
have found.

Anyway, if you want to dive into it to see for yourself, here's an summary of
some of the 'evidence' they dug up:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/pizzagate/comments/5da0kp/comet_pin...](https://www.reddit.com/r/pizzagate/comments/5da0kp/comet_ping_pong_pizzagate_summary/)

~~~
etherael
It's pretty hilarious that amongst the pearl clutching and virtue signaling
and holding up the NY times as if it was a crucifix against vampires, there is
flat out deafening silence when you bring up just a shred of the things that
have been revealed during the affair in question.

I don't know what to think either, but the response amongst otherwise
intelligent people on this is pretty weird, in both the positive and negative
case directions.

------
wyldfire
Smells like 4chan manufactured not just the claims but perhaps even the
outrage. But they got what they wanted: NYT coverage. YHBT. HAND.

Times: please don't feed the trolls.

~~~
argonaut
No. There are actual voters that believe(d) this [1]. It's trolling but it
needs to be addressed.

[1]
[https://twitter.com/ch402/status/796409197411713024](https://twitter.com/ch402/status/796409197411713024)

~~~
hansen
Yeah, this thing is semi-big on reddit, and to me it looks like a lot of nuts
actually believe this. But the question remains, was this thing initialized by
some /pol/ übertrolls, or was it only conspiracy nuts from the beginning?

~~~
Tsugumo
Started with people finding what they thought were pedo keywords in the
Podesta emails. More searching led to circumstantial evidence. Besta Pizza is
the one they think is most guilty. Besta Pizza logo looked a lot like a secret
symbol used by pedos, until they recently changed it.

Not sure how Comet fits in. Maybe Podesta ordered from them for the many
'pizza parties' referenced in his emails, with lines like 'i don't like hair
on my pizza.'

Combination of strange references to 'pizza' in the emails, the logos, the
utter distrust of establishment politicians (especially those connected to
Hillary), fuelled by ongoing theories about so-called elites' child
trafficking rings (Epstein).

~~~
hansen
> what they thought

What makes so sure about this? These claims are so nonsensical that it could
be “what they wanted the reddit conspiracy hive-mind to believe”.

------
puranjay
I'm no conspiracy nut, but the way Podesta and others talk about food in
Wikileaks emails is kinda weird.

But then, weirdness != criminality.

~~~
slowmotiony
Owner of the pizzeria posting pics of tied up children to his instagram is
also "kinda weird".

~~~
Fraterkes
If there really is some top-secret pedoring, why would they post that shit
online?

~~~
slowmotiony
Perhaps because they're fucked in the head.

------
cperciva
I know where I'll be eating dinner if I ever visit Washington DC. If enough
people make a practice of standing up for victims like these, we might see
less use of weaponized slander.

~~~
DigForTheKids
Look at the archive of this man's instagram. Judge for yourself. Don't just
take the NYTimes' opinion as sacred. This is a massive scandal that is
breaking as we speak.

~~~
techsupporter
> Look at the archive of this man's instagram. Judge for yourself.

Done and done. Saw a bunch of happy customers posting pictures of their kids
having a blast at a family restaurant...all captioned with misleading and,
occasionally, vile captions.

------
lvs
There are a disturbing number of new accounts being formed to comment
idiotically on this thread. Mods should lock. The troll brigades are landing.
The real target of this misinformation campaign is very likely to be the site
Media Matters, as the article obliquely suggests.

------
internaut
I don't know what to believe, but I'm not going to take the New York Times at
its word. I see it has already lied once in the article.

Remember 2003, Iraq war, WMDs? That took thousands of dollars out of your
pocket.

Let's agree on one thing here. Spreading false information is unhelpful.

------
dluan
I was just thinking about the recent Black Mirror episode about how easy it is
for a hivemind of righteous (or totally false wacko) anger to appear and make
victims.

The way twitter/4chan/facebook work is that it's basically a streaming tube of
recency, where content gets pushed through it and everyone is forced to look
at the top of the heap, ie the newest memes.

If you actually had a graph the size of your network, and the font size of the
comments/content your friends' post actually reflect their voice in context of
the whole network (e.g. smaller), maybe you'd see it less as a spotlight and
more as background noise.

------
Shorel
Years ago a writer friend of mine asked me about and idea of how a group of
people all doing the same thing at the same time could do the most damage in
general.

I surely did not have good enough ideas for a writing, but this pizzagate
thing seems to be one terrifying answer to that inquiry.

Just that in this case the damage is very concentrated and it seems to affect
only on a few group of people.

------
ozgurozkan
I was expecting a reply for each accusation and found nothing. Can you please
reply about 65 grand pizza? This is so simple.

------
purephase
It's not racism. Check.

It's not misogyny. Check.

It's not bigotry. Check.

We get it. There are disenfranchised folks in the US that feel under-
represented and even targeted/blamed etc.

But this, this nonsense, is beyond the pale. You got your president elect.
Worst case, thousands will pay the price in rights, access to services or the
ability to live in a democratic society, free from the challenges (life
threatening or otherwise) that they sought splice from.

It's a small business. Parents, customers with children, sullied by this
insane, malicious group of alt right sociopaths who make up The_Donald and
other locations. To justify or support this shit obliterates any legitimate
credibility, however remote, they may have had.

~~~
loeg
I think it's safe to say these kinds of trolls do not represent, in any way,
the majority of republican voters.

~~~
Frondo
Then we can look to the republican voters to denounce their actions.

That is, after all, the standard that we hold Muslims to. As well as the
standard we hold progressives to when anarchists try to turn peaceful protests
into riots.

The party of personal responsibility is often quick to hold groups accountable
for the actions of individuals.

~~~
464192002d7fe1c
I will denounce anyone who claims this is definitely true, there is 10000%
nothing definitive here, but you can't really fault people for investigating
after the number of secret child sex abuse scandals that have happened in the
past two or three decades.

~~~
pyre
> you can't really fault people for investigating after the number of secret
> child sex abuse scandals that have happened in the past two or three
> decades.

Are these people really investigating though? What they are doing is posting
threats, lies and rumours on social media sites under the guise of "we just
don't want children to be raped." Nobody that posts:

> _I won 't stop tweeting about #PizzaGate until I know for a fact that there
> aren't children in danger being covered up by the US government_

is "investigating" anything unless you count "making Twitter posts that
contain the #PizzaGate hashtag" as an investigation.

You're also missing that many of these people are starting with the conclusion
that child molestation is going on, and they are just looking for evidence of
what they "know" is happening. That's not an investigation. That's a witch
hunt.

------
2scary2reply
There was a comment here previously by [redacted] which said:

"There are just so many pieces that almost neatly fit together - it's gross.
Too many coincidences to just hand-wave away.

More context:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/pizzagate/](https://www.reddit.com/r/pizzagate/)

Their reaction to this article specifically:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/pizzagate/comments/5e8lg7/the_nyt_j...](https://www.reddit.com/r/pizzagate/comments/5e8lg7/the_nyt_j..).

Insane ramblings of paint-huffers? Or people who maybe saw something they
shouldn't?"

They deleted their comment - I guess they were getting too many downvotes. But
I created this account to reply, so screw it:

How can anyone ever disprove a conspiracy theory like that? It's impossible.

I saw in passing an interview with someone who thought that Hillary was
ordering child abuse victims using "Pizza" as a code word. I never actually
realized it was a serious accusation.

"False news" isn't the issue. It's people are completely unable to evaluate
how likely something is in any meaningful way if that person is on the
opposite side of politics.

~~~
dang
Hey, if a user deleted their comment, that's their prerogative and it's unfair
to override that without their permission. People here need to treat each
other better than on the internet at large, or what sort of a community are
we?

It's extremely rare that we'd edit a comment but I don't think you have
property rights over this one, so I'm going to redact the username you put in
there and ask you not to do this again.

~~~
Gargoyle
Something I've wanted to ask, then... Why is there a relatively short cutoff
period for deleting one of your own comments?

~~~
dang
The window is 2 hours, same as for editing.

HN threads are collaborations; comments aren't just individual property.
Active threads develop quickly in response to existing posts, and
editing/deleting earlier comments removes context that the later ones are
based on. The longer the time window, the more likely that later comments will
get invalidated and/or history rewritten. So we need an edit window that's
long enough for people to refine their comment or have second thoughts about
it, but brief enough not to pull the rug out from others.

We're happy to delete comments or sometimes even edit them after the fact if
people have a good reason for needing that (e.g. they're worried about getting
in trouble from something they posted). But we only do that in response to
specific requests about specific links. We don't delete history wholesale.

------
staticelf
Some americans are so fucking stupid it's beyond me. Unfortunately that is
also true for the population in my country and much likely the entire world.

~~~
BuckRogers
No, we more than likely have you beat. People blame Hillary for "losing the
election" (that she won, actually). It's the minority of voters who happen to
live in privileged areas that get to choose our next President who chose the
nitwit over a Yale Law grad. Smart has been out in my country for a while now
and it's really a shame considering the superpower status.

~~~
suby
It's nonsense to claim that Hillary actually won the election, because by
doing so you're changing the rules of the contest after the fact.

The goal was to get the most electoral votes, and Trump (for better or worse)
followed a strategy that allowed him to obtain more than Hillary. Had the goal
at the start of the election been to win the most votes in total, then the
strategy followed by both sides would have been massively different. We really
can't say one way or the other who would have won the popular vote in such a
scenario.

People need to rip this band aid off already. Hillary lost, and it's her own
fault.

~~~
BuckRogers
More people, ~2.5 million voted for her. People vote, counties/states do not.
How would you feel if you simply were born in the wrong part of the country
and you're with the majority and your vote didn't end up mattering? To have
your vote matter, you need to be in Ohio or Michigan.

The Yale Law grad is at fault for losing to that barbarian? Wrong again. The
minority of the voting public, who believe they are victims- are at fault. And
the USA is the one that will end up losing.

------
DigForTheKids
How are people so quick to dismiss what they are talking about on 4chan and
reddit? What if this is a legitimate pedophile ring of Washington elites, and
what if they are using their influence to brush it under the rug? Doesn't that
possibility bother you? Why not examine the evidence (intentionally omitted
from this article) yourself?

~~~
pyre
... and posting hashtags on Twitter, sending death threats, and hurling
accusations at anyone within a mile radius of this pizzaria is how you go down
in history for blowing the lid right off this story and getting to the truth,
right?

~~~
MollyR
Social pressure on people in charge works. I'm not saying its good or bad
here. The new right seems to taken a huge page from saul alinksy and the
control-left in their tactics.

~~~
pyre
In this case, we're talking about 'social pressure' on a pizzeria that should
be innocent until proven guilty, but is being smeared by accusations based on
little to no evidence (other than "wake up sheeple" type evidence).

------
jjellyy
I like how they hand-wave away the entire thing by saying "its been debunked"
with no analysis or article link.

Also why is NYTimes at liberty to decide whats real and fake news ? Agree or
disagree, their political analysis leans heavily left.

~~~
res0nat0r
It isn't on the NYT to disprove the owners aren't child molesters, it's the
crazies posting conspiracy theories which are still just that. This type of
thinking above I think is a major problem these days.

Just because someone says something crazy on the internet doesn't mean that
the person being accused is automatically guilty until they take the time out
of their life to disprove said thing, it's the exact opposite.

~~~
464192002d7fe1c
Its not so much that I think its true (I don't) its just that I wouldn't,
exactly, at this point be surprised if it _was_.

In any event, most of the stuff I read is less "omg guys this is totally 100%
correct" and more "this is a seriously strange and disturbing set of
coincidences" mixed with a lot of memeing circlejerk.

And after things like

[http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/corey-feldman-
elijah-w...](http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/corey-feldman-elijah-wood-
hollywood-897403)

and things like Jeffrey Epstein and the whole Jimmy Savile thing, I'm just not
sure anymore of ANYTHING. Honestly, the fact that the NY times feels the need
to publish an article debunking it is a (very very tiny) shove towards it
being true.

~~~
res0nat0r
It really is just natural followup from the election and Trump winning.

I've seen it firsthand constantly the last few months on my FB feed. When ~50%
of the electorate gets their news from Facebook only and it is 99% nonsense
conspiracy theories not rooted in reality, the NYT and others have had a
reality check that they should start calling out this nonsensical crap since
so many people are gullible and actually are swayed by it.

------
meric
After completely failing at predicting Trump's election victory and completely
misjudging the views of the populace, the mainstream media is now taking
advantage of this situation using the tag 'fake news' to label competition to
restore its credibility. A Pizza Shop on a crusade against 'fake news', new
term for this month, who knew?

~~~
xenadu02
> A Pizza Shop on a crusade against 'fake news'

Getting dozens of calls threatening to kill you, having your kid's pictures
reposted all over the internet, and getting doxed are not how I would describe
"a crusade against fake news". This is hardly new. Swatting, gamergate, etc
are all manifestations of similar things. Why are you so dismissive?

Internet mobs are easy to rile up and difficult to control. Each individual
participating only takes one minor action (for example calling and yelling at
the other party one time) but the victims of the abuse suffer a massive
torrent of hate and slander with basically no recourse. People get fired
because their employer doesn't want to deal with the harassment or bad press.

For a long time a simple accusation was enough to get the mob going. Now you
don't even need that much, just some conspiracy-mongering and a few likes on
Facebook and you too can send a mob after anyone for no reason at all!

~~~
leereeves
The NY Times helped rile up the mob that harassed Tim Hunt.

[http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/12/world/europe/tim-hunt-
nobe...](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/12/world/europe/tim-hunt-nobel-
laureate-resigns-sexist-women-female-scientists.html)

They aren't opposed to Internet mobs, just those that don't fit their agenda.

~~~
adevine
Come on, this is a complete false equivalency. In Tim Hunt's case, Tim Hunt
_actually said_ the things that were the cause of other people's ire. Perhaps
you can argue that NYT's opinion pages were one sided, but at least they are
explicitly labeled as opinion.

The mob that harassed the pizza shop owner was riled up by a totally false and
horrific, incredibly libelous lie.

~~~
leereeves
> Come on, this is a complete false equivalency.

Are you suggesting the mob that attacked Tim Hunt was justified?

> In Tim Hunt's case, Tim Hunt actually said the things that were the cause of
> other people's ire.

As a joke, which (we know from a recording and the reports of other attendees)
was well received by the audience in general, save one reporter who saw an
opportunity to profit by misrepresenting his remarks.

> Perhaps you can argue that NYT's opinion pages were one sided, but at least
> they are explicitly labeled as opinion.

One discussion was, the article linked above was not. It claimed quite
seriously that Tim Hunt said "female scientists should be segregated from male
colleagues".

> The mob that harassed the pizza shop owner was riled up by a totally false
> and horrific, incredibly libelous lie.

As was the mob that harassed Tim Hunt. The much bigger lie that he was some
sort of chauvinist keeping women out of science.

A lie that was exposed by the many women who worked with him and defended him.

[http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/science/article4477447.ece](http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/science/article4477447.ece)

~~~
adevine
Thank you. You've changed my opinion of this episode, and I agree that NYT did
a great disservice by how this was reported. The realclearpolitics summary I
think gives a much clearer and fairer overview of what really happened.

I hope, though, that most people would feel the same anger and disappointment
that I feel over being misled whether or not it agrees with their views,
instead of doubling down on false information in the hopes that spreading it
further somehow makes it more real.

------
pcardh0
First a pizza place in the Rust Belt won't cater to a hypothetical gay wedding
and now this. I guess that Pizza is the new front-line in the culture wars.
Pretty sad in my opinion. That said, if there is a war, I hope Domino's and
Pizza Hut don't make it. They are the true villains of Big Pizza.

