
Too poor to retire, too young to die (2016) - paulpauper
http://graphics.latimes.com/retirement-nomads/
======
rayiner
> But there is little money to see the sights. She earns too much to receive
> food stamps, and a lot of it goes to groceries. She tries to eat organic
> food, with her low blood sugar. That rules out cheap but filling Big Macs —
> as well as the food kitchens whose mass-produced meals, she decided, are
> unhealthful.

Why do newspapers use as examples people who seem to have done everything
wrong? Is it because formerly middle class people are somehow more relatable
to the readers of the LA Times than people who never had much of a chance to
begin with? What about the poor elderly who never went to business school or
were born in an area with few opportunities?

This lady gets almost $17,000 a year in pension and social security, which
puts her just outside the bottom 1/5 of the income distribution. She’s
presumably eligible for Medicare. In a rural town it would be enough for a
decent living.

~~~
pc86
> _In a rural town it would be enough for a decent living._

It most certainly would not be. Survivable? Probably. Decent? Absolutely not.

And Medicare recipients still have out of pocket requirements, that's the
whole reason Medicare supplement insurance exists. The average out of pocket
expense for Medicare recipients in 2014 was over $4,000.

Tell someone making $1,400 a _month_ they need to budget $350 a month for
health care.

~~~
rayiner
You can buy a 5BR house in Sibley IA (downtown, walkable to the grocery store
and general store) for $330/month in mortgage. Add $350 in health care and
you’ve still got $700 per month. Tight, yes, but definitely decent.

~~~
falcolas
$700 to cover food, (gas, car insurance - probably a requirement in Iowa to do
more than go to the stores), entertainment, a house repair fund, clothing,
electricity/gas/water/sewer/garbage... That $700 is going to be stretched
pretty damned thin.

And that's assuming that insurance covers everything health related (it
probably doesn't).

~~~
rayiner
Instead of splitting hairs on hypothetical budgets, let’s look at it another
way. The median HHI is $43,000 and the median household size is about 2.7.
(And remember, that is taxed while her SS and pension likely are not.) $17,000
as an individual living alone with no dependents probably puts her at the
bottom of the middle 1/3\. Middle third in Sibley isn’t just barely surviving.
It’s a decent life.

------
40acres
Both of my parents are in this situation, and it's only exacerbated by the
fact that my mom had to retire due to spinal surgery and my dad has a bad hip
injury that he refuses to get surgery for because he fears missing rent.
Despite my willingness to help with the rent and bills I can only provide so
much as I live in a high COL area as well.

The next 15-20 years are going to be very, very tough for older Americans.

~~~
pmoriarty
_" I can only provide so much as I live in a high COL area as well"_

Why are your parents living in a high cost-of-living area?

Wouldn't it make sense for them to move somewhere they could better afford?

~~~
40acres
They could, absolutely. My mother has always dreamed of buying a house in
Florida for instance but that would be impossible with their finances.

Both of my parents are immigrants from a small country, they immigrated to NYC
because it's one of the few cities in America where other folks from our
country settled. Moving would undoubtedly allow them to ease up on rent and
cost of living, but it would also move them away from other family members,
long time friends, church community, etc.

As mentioned, both are very sedentary due to injury despite the fact that my
dad works a grueling job, if they moved away from the community that has
supported them for ~30 years I could only see their quality of life worsening.

------
linkmotif
> That rules out cheap but filling Big Macs

Big Macs are neither cheap nor filling. Fast food is extremely expensive.
Anyone who’s ever been poor and collected enough to escape poverty understands
this. Americans, as parroted by this journalist, don’t know what poverty is.
How is it that you have 17,000 dollars per year and still struggle to survive?
If you’re poor and eat fast food and keep your home stocked with disposable
utensils: you’re hopeless, you're going to be poor forever.

If you’re poor you can’t eat fast food if you want to stop being poor. You can
afford dried lentils. Dried beans. Meat when it’s on sale. Apples when they’re
79 cents/lb or when you can get them for free. Americans just don’t know how
to live without getting owned by the man. “Poor” Americans are overwhelmingly
people who don’t understand home economics and how not to give all their money
to rich people. They make one bad decision after the next. It’s a cultural
problem driven by the absense of local community, support structure and
values.

What’s happened in the past hundred years is that capitalists have played
divide and conquer with cultural systems to make people increasingly alone and
isolated from one another, less economically viable and increasingly helpless.
Cooking—a thing that every person on earth could do for nearly every meal they
consumed–became a thing that's difficult. Cooking: Don't Try This at Home.
It's simple: Capitalism doesn’t value consumer empowerment. It values consumer
servitude. Instead of being raised by grandparents and community members,
American children are raised in daycare. Instead of grandparents helping with
cooking, working Americans are tasked with preparing food for the family, a
task that is impossible. Things you could rely on from family and community
are things today you have to get from corporations. We replaced family and
community with government and corporations and this is what we got: A culture
that says Big Macs are cheap and writes so as a matter of fact in the local
newspaper of record.

~~~
falcolas
Big macs provide about ~600 calories and 25g of protein for $4. The whole meal
is over 1000 calories for $6. It's hard to beat in terms of speed or price.
Nutrition? Yeah, pretty low (though it's a good source of iron and Vitamin A).

Sure, I could make a meal with more calories for a little cheaper... but at a
high up-front cost in money, and an prep/cook cost in time.

~~~
linkmotif
Big Macs are shit salty food that doesn’t make you full and spikes your
glycemic load so you’re hungry again in 30 minutes.

The American idea that poor people get to organize their time the same way
that non poor people get to organize their time is near the core of the
problem. The argument that eating fast food saves you time is deeply
troublesome because poor people, while disadvantaged in many ways like having
to use public transit or not having transit, generally have the lowest premium
on time because their time is worthless.

~~~
falcolas
Where else can I spend $6, and have 1000+ calories available to me the next
minute?

Assume I don't have prep time, because I'm not at home, or because I'm already
late for my second job in an attempt to provide for myself at minimum wages.

A lot of folks don't have the time or energy to stock up for, prepare and cook
proper meals, whether rich, poor, or somewhere in between. Call it a tragedy
of the modern times.

~~~
derekp7
Tuna sandwich -- half can tuna, mayo, relish, bread, cheese, 360 calories for
about $1.02. Prices and calories derived from serving sizes on the various
product labels, looking up the products on walmart.com. Takes about a minute
to mix the ingredients together and make a few sandwiches.

Can also bake a potato in the microwave, throw some butter, sour cream,
shredded cheese, and seasoning on them. Baked potatoes (or skillet fried, etc)
make fairly cheap meals.

Pasta is something that is cheap and easy to make, for time management
purposes, boil it while you are taking a shower in the morning. Throw it
(along with some tomato sauce) in a ziplock baggie in the morning, take it
with you for lunch.

I realize that time is limited esp. if you are working 80 hour weeks at
minimum wage. And then there is the time it takes to stop by walmart to pick
up the ingredients. However many people that I know that complain about lack
of time also spend quite a bit on either watching TV, or taking smoke breaks,
or other things that would be better spent on meal preparation instead of
running to McDonalds.

------
CoryMO
Dolores passed away earlier this year:
[http://www.latimes.com/local/obituaries/la-na-dolores-
westfa...](http://www.latimes.com/local/obituaries/la-na-dolores-
westfall-2017-story.html)

------
rabbite
Five paragraphs in, the root of many of her problems:

"Her savings long gone, and having never done much long-term financial
planning"

Six paragraphs in, the root of elderly problems nation-wide:

"Nearly one-third of U.S. heads of households ages 55 and older have no
pension or retirement savings and a median annual income of about $19,000"

Is it possible that the lack of long term financial planning, aka saving
money, is the crux of many of these tragic situations?

~~~
mattnewton
A lot of the sources of savings were in houses, which burst in 2008.

~~~
parsnips
How much equity was lost due to inflated gains vs down payments/mortgage
payments. I'd say much more the former than the latter, If I had to guess.

------
turc1656
_"...and faced yet another nasty choice between need and want. Should she go
to the dentist, or take a guided tour of buildings designed by her favorite
architect, Frank Lloyd Wright? Each cost $100. She picked Frank Lloyd Wright.
Her teeth could wait."_

Wow, with decisions like that it's no wonder that woman is in a bad position.
Honestly, though - am I supposed to feel bad for someone like this? You can
bet that if I was barely scraping by I would not be spending $100 on a guided
tour of a building, or at a restaurant getting prime rib (something the
article mentions she also did). I wouldn't be eating out at all or doing
anything that involved any sort of discretionary income because I didn't have
any. She doesn't have any but she act like she does. It's not rocket science
that the numbers don't add up in the end.

Gee, I wonder...should I go to Peter Luger's for dinner this Friday or pay my
gas and electric? Tough call.

~~~
jstarfish
At the time the article was written, she was in the last few years of her
life.

If they're spent doing nothing but hustling to pay bills, and there is no
enjoyment to be afforded outside of that, why bother finishing the last few?
Being old sucks enough as it is, with all your faculties failing and everybody
abandoning you.

She's dead now. She got to enjoy the museum and a steak while she still had a
chance. I don't begrudge her that.

~~~
Balgair
I'm not sure there is a name for the GP's 'fallacy', but I think there should
be. The idea is that one person in the whole history of the world had the
worst, most painful, most terrible, most suffered, most miserable life that
ever happened anywhere and for all time. All other people are just griping and
moaning; they could have had it worse, so shut-up.

Like, how _mean_ is that thought process? We need to be helping each other
out, not comparing the size of our scars and the length of our therapy
sessions. So what if someone hasn't had it was bad as you or some hypothetical
person? Be kind.

~~~
derekp7
That is the fallacy of relative priation, I think.

------
mallet
Article begins with spending $20 on a prime-rib lunch, then complains about
not being able to eat....

~~~
pc86
To be fair, it's for three meals. $7.12 per meal is pretty good for restaurant
food.

~~~
sf_rob
>For restaurant food.

------
macintux
This and the "retail apocalypse" piece are quite sobering. There are going to
be a lot of homeless elderly in the future.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Only if nothing is done by society to fix the problem.

~~~
wincy
Or if, you know, we had social values where it’s OK to have your children take
care of you.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Mind if I expound on this?

My mother died in July at 59 from a brain hemorrhage. I took her in 2 years
ago, and I paid ~$1000/month for her prescriptions before the ACA kicked in.
After it kicked in, her prescription costs dropped (thankfully, as I was going
to Canada to get non-controlled prescriptions) but her provider costs
increased.

Only because I’m a tech professional in a top earning tier was I able to do
this while supporting my wife and daughter. What is the solution for the rest
of Americans?

Side note: After her death, I received ~$48k in medical bills that weren’t
covered by her health insurance. Bad news for those providers.

~~~
creaghpatr
So your solution was to shaft the hospitals $48k? Sounds like an applicable
solution for the rest of America. This is why healthcare costs are so high.

~~~
eropple
Wow, that's a really nasty comment. Debts expunge upon the deaths of the
debtor. Why would you expect him to pay those debts?

This isn't "why healthcare costs are so high".

------
bradleyjg
Social security is a pretty strange program in no small part because it
doesn't know what it wants to be. It tries to be everything to everyone -- a
mandatory savings program for the middle class, an anti-poverty program for
the elderly, a safety net for widows and orphans, and long term disability
insurance. It could use a good healthy dose of the UNIX philosophy of do one
thing and do it well.

The woman profiled in this article is 79 years old. She gets $1200/month from
social security and a $190/month pension. If we as a society think that
$1390/month isn't enough to live on and that 79 years ought not to have to
work to survive then we should have some program that gives her more than
$1200/month.

Maybe that should be a means tested program, though that comes with side
effects, or maybe an elderly UBI. Or perhaps you disagree with one or both of
the premises -- like that you think that $1390/month is plenty. That's okay
too.

My point is that social security with its strange formulas and conceptual
inconsistencies isn't some fact of the universe like that the sun will burn
out. It is something that we Americans picked and we Americans can change if
we decide to.

~~~
maxerickson
They are separate programs though. They just all happen to involve the same
expertise and are managed together.

(the things you call mandatory savings and anti-poverty aren't separate
things, but it is mandatory because the anti-poverty funding is done on an
actuarial basis with the broadest possible base; in any case, you receive
benefits based on having paid in, not just because you is old)

~~~
bradleyjg
You only partly receive benefits based on having paid in. You can also receive
benefits based on a live, dead, or even ex-spouse having paid in. Or a live or
dead parent.

Given that some people don't qualify at all it isn't a particularly well
designed anti-poverty measure. You can say that it isn't supposed to be until
you are blue in the face, but that's certainly how it was and continues to be
sold. Given that if you died at age 60 without a wife or children your estate
gets nothing, it isn't a particularly well designed mandatory savings program.
That is another way it was and continues to be sold. Given that there's no
underwriting it isn't a well designed insurance program (annuity).

Like our tax advantaged retirement savings options -- with its grab bag of
different programs -- or Medicare with its bizarre A/B/D distinction (not to
mention C) no one would actually set out to design a system like social
security. People defend it because it is the status quo and they fear the
unknown that admitting ought to replaced would open up.

------
jstarfish
> Her monthly income consists of $1,200 in Social Security and a $190 pension,
> plus pay from her seasonal jobs. She owes $50,000 on her credit cards.
> There’s also a $268 monthly loan payment for her aging rig.

The situation for her does suck, but seeing profiles like this makes me want
to tear my hair out.

If you're trying to service $50,000 in unsecured debt (likely at a 24.99999%
interest rate) with less than $2000 in gross income, just declare bankruptcy.
You've lost the game of financial planning; continuing to play it just makes
sure you remain a loser for the final few years you spend on this mortal coil.

Clear the slate and start over while you still have time. She has nothing to
lose (she won't be able to finance a new car, RV or house in her current
circumstances either) and a few hundred dollars a month in disposable income
to gain. That's around a 25% increase overnight, just by waking up and doing
what every corporate citizen in this country does when its own debts get too
onerous.

------
PatientTrades
> Her monthly income consists of $1,200 in Social Security and a $190 pension

That is a decent salary if she lived in a cheaper state like Mississippi or
Kentucky. I realize there are other factors at play here, but its your choice
to retire in a ridiculously expensive state like California.

------
tempz
Maybe a new startup with an app could help?

"Post a selfie of feeding the hungry"

"Leftover food spotted on the corner of 5th and Lincoln"

Then sell user data to law enforcement.

------
notacoward
There's a terribly toxic combination at work here - a demographic bubble,
lifespans (but often not _productive_ lifespans) extended by modern medicine,
high cost of that modern medicine, declining market value of skills held by
the older generation, flat middle-class earnings, near-total elimination of
defined benefit programs, and a series of financial shocks eroding the value
of stock-market alternatives. The result is akin to an epidemic - millions of
older people _physically_ able and likely to live a few more decades, but
_financially_ not even capable of making it another year without help. Scary.

The GOP/libertarian answer is likely to be that "too young to die" isn't true.
No, they won't come out and say it, but the policies they promote come down to
that. "Just die already, it'll be good for the economy (or at least the stock
market)." Problem is, they _won 't_ die. They'll end up in hospitals more
often, or prisons. If you think nobody has deliberately gone to jail just to
ensure three squares and health care, think again. Some will end up in their
children's homes, which can be great sometimes but is more often a drain on
those children's own prospects. Many will end up on the streets. The rich
families who send their kids to Washington or Wall Street won't be affected
and thus mostly own't care, but it will be a literal disaster for everyone
else.

Like it or not, the only real choice is for us _as a society_ to do more to
look after the elderly. Not only is it the humane choice, but when you add up
all the costs of the alternative that's even worse. And no, we can't rely on
private charity to do the job. There's nowhere near enough organized charity
for that, and at the individual level very _very_ few of the people affluent
enough to offer help will go anywhere near somebody else's poor grandmother.
I'm extremely fortunate that I can afford to pay for my mother to be in a nice
assisted living facility, but everything below that is a hellhole and my
personal solution doesn't scale to all of society.

------
chiefalchemist
What caught my eye was the $50k in credit card debt, and not explanation as to
why. I have to assume those minimal payments are significant and keep growing.
Remove that and she could be in much better shape. Obviously not livin' large
but at least there's not the stress of $50k hanging over her head.

My other thought was, if possible, why not have a veg garden? As the legend
Ron Finley says "it's like printing money."

Sure it take time and effort but if you consider it to be a permanent PT job
(that she rarely has) then it could be a big help.

------
sandworm101
This isn't an intergenerational issue. Old people (65+) have something beyond
95% of the money in this world. Todays seniors, as a group, are the most
wealthy ever. The "gray market" for anything from drugs to travel is booming
like never before. What is needed then is not wealth transfer between
generations, such as income taxes paid by the young. What is needed is
transfer from the rich elderly to the poor elderly. It is time to means test
many of the benefits. If you are earning 200k+ in passive retirement income,
your social security can be partially diverted to help those truly in need.

------
ChuckMcM
This: _She owes $50,000 on her credit cards._

Go to any bank rate calculator[1] and look at what a $50K debt in credit cards
does to you. If you learn only one thing from this cautionary tale it should
be how expensive credit card money can be.

Without that debt she would not be in great shape but she would be a lot
better off.

[1] [http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/credit-cards/credit-
card...](http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/credit-cards/credit-card-minimum-
payment.aspx)

------
philipov
This article title sounds like a riff on the Jethro Tull song.

[0]:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8uUh1xsL14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8uUh1xsL14)

------
tryingagainbro
Leave USA...$1000 a month goes a long way in a lot of countries, in USA you'll
starve.
[https://www.kiplinger.com/article/retirement/T037-C000-S002-...](https://www.kiplinger.com/article/retirement/T037-C000-S002-how-
to-retire-abroad.html)

~~~
elboru
Now I get why a lot of Americans come to Mexico to retire, sure we have a lot
of problems over here, but with that amount you will be able to live in a good
and beautiful town, maybe next to a beach or in a traditional town like San
Miguel de Allende [1] (a lot of old Americans go to retire there), maybe you
won't live like a king, but you won't have housing or food problems at all.
[1] [http://cdn-
image.travelandleisure.com/sites/default/files/st...](http://cdn-
image.travelandleisure.com/sites/default/files/styles/1600x1000/public/1499880720/night-
city-view-san-miguel-de-allende-ALLENDE0717.jpg)

------
jorblumesea
I wonder if these kinds of stories will prompt real political will for things
like single payer healthcare or a real social safety net.

~~~
turc1656
A "real" social safety net? Is that a joke? As though we already don't have
tons of social programs? Sure, the US might not be as insanely generous as
some European nations, but the US has medicare, medicaid, food stamps (SNAP),
social security, welfare (SSI), disability, housing assistance, CHIP, WIC, ACA
subsidies, section 8 housing assistance, home energy assistance, and probably
even more I can't think of or don't even know about. The US spends more than
$2.3 trillion every year on those programs combined, which comes out to around
$7,000 for each and every person in the US (around 330M). That's an absolutely
mind blowing number.

~~~
sharemywin
Social Security: Last year, 24 percent of the budget, or $916 billion, paid
for Social Security, which provided monthly retirement benefits averaging
$1,360 to 41 million retired workers in December 2016. Social Security also
provided benefits to 3 million spouses and children of retired workers, 6
million surviving children and spouses of deceased workers, and 10.6 million
disabled workers and their eligible dependents in December 2016.

Medicare, Medicaid, CHIP, and marketplace subsidies: Four health insurance
programs — Medicare, Medicaid, the Children’s Health Insurance Program (CHIP),
and Affordable Care Act (ACA) marketplace subsidies — together accounted for
26 percent of the budget in 2016, or $1 trillion. Nearly three-fifths of this
amount, or $594 billion, went to Medicare, which provides health coverage to
around 57 million people who are over age 65 or have disabilities. The rest of
this category funds Medicaid, CHIP, and ACA subsidy and exchange costs. In a
typical month, Medicaid and CHIP provide health care or long-term care to
about 74 million low-income children, parents, elderly people, and people with
disabilities. (Both Medicaid and CHIP require matching payments from the
states.) In 2016, 9 million of the 11 million people enrolled in health
insurance exchanges received ACA subsidies, at an estimated cost of about $31
billion.

~~~
sharemywin
~$1272/mo per person on social security( around 60 m people)

~868 / mo per person for medicare(57 m)

(both of these they paid all their life into)

~$668 /mo Medicaid and CHIP provide health care or long-term care to about 74
million low-income children, parents, elderly people, and people with
disabilities.

------
nnfy
>Her savings long gone, and having never done much long-term financial
planning

And so again we are expected to pay for the mistakes of others. What incentive
is there to save if you know you have a social net to save you anyway?

Yes, I understand, it is a terrifying way to live, I wouldn't wish it on
anyone, but if we deincentivize personal responsibility, what stops this from
becoming a larger problem? How can this be sustainable?

Edit: please do not mistake my attempt at objectivity for callousness. One
must divorce personal feelings of pity and empathy for individuals when
discussing matters which affect hundreds of millions of people. There comes a
point where there are more people requiring assistance than we are capable of
supporting, and part of the solution is to discourage recklessness.

~~~
epistasis
There are many nations with a similar level of development and wealth as the
United States. How prevalent is this problem in Canada? In Europe?

You propose "personal responsibility" as the solution to this, but does Canada
or Europe depend more on "personal responsibility" or less than the US?

~~~
iaw
Ayn Rand, arguably a strong proponent of "personal responsibility", required
welfare at the end of her life. She made some justifications for how she could
live off of welfare but still did it.

When times are personally good it's easy to make arguments about what people
should do, but when you're in a situation with no support things feel a lot
different.

~~~
nnfy
> but when you're in a situation with no support things feel a lot different.

The fact that things feel different in hard times does not change whether
objectively they are right or wrong.

------
ggg9990
Move to California, stop buying prime rib dinners, and stop complaining.

