
Airlines are finally fixing the middle seat - mhb
https://www.fastcompany.com/90377949/airlines-are-finally-fixing-the-middle-seat
======
Someone1234
So this seat has the same poor legroom as others while being much lower,
continues to share armrests (but now they're thinner/less useful), and in
exchange you get a couple of inches of width to compensate in the middle row
(while armrests are thinner in all three rows)? Plus the uneven rows make it
that much harder to exit/pee from the window seat.

Their whole "the passengers will share a single armrest!" idea completely
ignores how people work with regards to personal space (plus they installed
their annoying "dual height" armrest in rows that don't share armrests,
effectively cutting the armrest's length in half for no value at all).

~~~
Maximus9000
The unwritten rule is that "the middle seat sucks, they get both middle
armrests". Sadly, not everyone knows that rule.

> "The seat you paid for has borders. Middle-seat elbow ownership ends on the
> armrests (you’re entitled to both)"

[https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/travel/article-a-
parent...](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/travel/article-a-parents-
airplane-etiquette-rules-for-other-adults/)

~~~
topmonk
Whoever takes the armrest first gets priority. It may cause your lifetime
happiness to have a little more volatility but since everyone has the same
random chance of getting the middle seat, still fair.

~~~
wavefunction
To whomever can take AND hold the armrest go the spoils of victory. What care
I for plaintive cries of "fairness" when nature provided me the means to take
the armrest I deserve from less capable arms?

~~~
panzagl
That's why I always begin a flight by bludgeoning my neighbor into
unconsciousness.

~~~
wcarron
I personally smear my own feces on the armrests, having come prepared with
plastic arm sleeves so that it doesn't get on me.

~~~
dang
Please don't do this here.

~~~
wcarron
Sorry, won't happen again.

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psim1
This works nicely until the guy in the window seat gets up to pee. He runs
into, or tugs on, the seat back that is in his way as he tries to exit the
row, annoying the occupant of that seat.

~~~
bitwize
Once as he leaves and once as he returns. I'll take it over being smushed.
What drives me batshit is when there's a kid in the seat behind me who uses my
seat back as a punching bag and just goes all out on it with hands and feet.

~~~
braythwayt
I have always felt the same way. Flying with other people's children is
infuriating. (So is dining with other people's children, or taking public
transit with other people's children. Or a car-share pool with other people's
children...)

Conclusion: Sharing an environment with other people's children statistically
sucks. We may win some victories here and there with tact, diplomacy, and/or
luck, but that's the reality.

And I am especially sensitive to this, as when I fly to Europe and am stuck in
this cacophony for six to eight hours, I usually have a presentation or essay
I'm working on and could really use a distraction-free environment.

So I'm both irritated and feeling stressed that I can't work effectively. This
is suboptimal personally and professionally. So what are my options?

I chose to fly economy. I could have gotten rich and bought my own plane, but
no. I could have spent money flying first class (which filters a LOT of
families out). But no. I chose to fly economy, where the price of my ticket
was low PRECISELY because families are also flying economy, subsidizing my
ticket.

If an airline offered an "Absolutely no kids allowed" flight for anything
except a vacation charter, the seats would be more expensive. So instead, they
offer first class, and "comfort economy," and if I want a seat not subsidized
by unruly toddlers and crying infants, that's what I purchase.

It's harsh, but the universe is no more "fair" to me than it is to people who
want affordable housing in San Francisco.

~~~
clairity
you've got a choice in the matter. other people's children can be wonderful
travel companions who distract you from the drudgery of your economy seat
existence. or you can wallow in your own annoyance and inability to focus on
something else. happiness and contentment come from changing perspectives,
moreso than changing circumstances or other people.

i (try to) remind myself of this when i get annoyed with other people on both
roads and walkways.

~~~
braythwayt
Most definitely. Sometimes when I ride public transit, a fellow passenger will
confide in me that some child is making an "inappropriate ruckus."

I usually reply with mild sarcasm, "Shame we both picked today to give our
chauffeur the day off."

But for the most part, children being children are entertaining.

------
choward
This is the second article I've seen about this and neither has a picture of
people actually sitting in the seats. All I want is before and after pictures
with people in the seats.

~~~
kjeetgill
My non-cynical guess is that with people in them, you can't visually see much
of a difference. The same way way I can't really eyeball the difference an
extra inch or two of legroom will make for me.

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dbg31415
Staggered seats feels gimmicky.

I'm 6'1" and all I want is like 2 more inches of knee room, like planes used
to have, so that when the person in front of me drops their seat back it
doesn't go right onto my knees. I have nowhere to go other than widening my
stance and encroaching on the people on either side. The new ultra thin / no
pading seats some airlines use really hurt when they land on your knees.

[https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/todayinthesky/...](https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/todayinthesky/2017/06/27/house-
panel-asks-faa-set-minimum-legroom-airlines/429358001/)

"[Average length has decreased from] 35 inches before airline deregulation in
the 1970s to about 31 inches today. During the same period, the average width
of seats declined from 18 to 16.5 inches..."

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harel
I read it as "Airlines are finally fixing the middle EAST", and thought wow,
that's an unexpected twist to a complicated problem.

~~~
cmoscoe
By helping to diversify petro-state economies in the gulf, you can sort of
make the case that they're helping?

~~~
harel
Yeah in a squint-hard kinda way.... ;)

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TheBeardKing
I fly in plenty of middle seats being a government employee. Nearly all of the
window and aisle seats are booked by the time we schedule the trip, and we
can't pay extra for premium economy. I'm an average size guy, 5'10, 170 lbs,
and never have an issue sitting middle next to average weight people. On
Southwest, I actually go for them first to get within the first couple rows
and get off the plane quicker. I've never had someone fall asleep and rest
their head on my shoulder as I've seen on TV. But I do have a small bout of
anxiety as I'm walking down the aisle for the chance I have to sit next to an
overweight person. You can't help but be touching hips the entire trip, and
arm nudges quite often.

This solution poses a whole new set of issues already mentioned, but the real
solution in my opinion is to relegate a few rows with only 2 seats for
overweight people, priced accordingly. Public perception wouldn't allow
requiring overweight people to book those seats, but I think a lot of
overweight people would out of courtesy and their own comfort. They would be
available to anyone who wanted the extra width as well, but you'd be less
motivated to pay extra for it if you didn't need it.

~~~
GhostVII
> but the real solution in my opinion is to relegate a few rows with only 2
> seats for overweight people, priced accordingly

Don't planes generally already have this? Most planes I have been on have the
business class (or whatever it is called) seats at the front, with just two
seats beside eachother, and then the rest of the plane being three seats. I
guess it is not targeted at people who are overweight, but it is available.

~~~
magduf
The fat people say it's discrimination that they're expected to pay more for a
seat (such as in business class as you suggest) than thinner people.

Also, it doesn't help that in America, fatter people tend to be poorer.

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jasonkester
This looks like the thing you do to park benches to stop homeless people from
sleeping on them.

I fly with two little kids (and a tiny wife), any of which can lay across a
row of three seats like a bed. If you can find a non-full international
flight, that can make all the difference. Unless of course you have hobo
spikes on the plane.

Pass.

~~~
twic
Now this is a smart move: travel with little kids and a tiny wife, and leave
the full-size ones at home!

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jacknews
I find the armrests are the main problem - if you get two large or selfish pax
on either side who both decide the middle armrest is theirs, you're left with
no arm rest at all, or some kind of territorial fight. Fixing that would go a
long way to equity.

Or just charge less for the middle seat.

~~~
Operyl
In a way they already are "charging less" for the middle seat, in the form of
paying money to select a seat. I think in the past 15 times I've flown I've
always gotten the middle seat unless I pay to select a seat.

~~~
jacknews
Haha yes, where that's an option, of course you can pay _more_ not to be in
the middle.

What was I thinking suggesting they charge _less_ for the middle, lol

~~~
Operyl
And they do, it's just pretty transparent I guess :).

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malthaus
It still sucks; those changes do not make up for the discomfort. Better than
nothing, i guess?

But how about addressing the issue economically/psychologically? Make the seat
cheaper! People put up with discomfort happily if they think they made a good
deal.

~~~
wongarsu
My last flight was Ryanair (a European budget airline). It was about $30 for
the flight and $5 extra for choosing a seat. Effectively I got the flight 15%
cheaper by accepting that I might get a middle seat.

~~~
malthaus
The thing is, while you actually end up paying more for a window/aisle seat in
the current system and my proposed one, it "feels" better to explicitly pay
less for a middle seat. Humans are weird.

~~~
alexhutcheson
In your system, your airline would be at a disadvantage when customers are
comparison shopping on OTAs, because your displayed price is "price for a
window/aisle seat" and your competitors would be displaying "price for a
middle seat".

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goatherders
Airlines will never adopt these seats en masse until people show a willingness
to pay more for them. That isnt how airlines work - they are cargo companies,
not customer service companies, and adding millions of dollars in expense so
the cheapest customers feel better doesnt fit the model. People in the middle
seat fly less often, are more price conscious, and generally dont matter to
airlines because there is no loyalty by those customers.

(250k flying miles a year here)

~~~
mikro2nd
Genuine question here: Do you, or would you, buy CO2 offsets to do something
about the horrendous carbon footprint of your 250k miles/year?

~~~
goatherders
Not sure why you got down-voted, it's a fair question. My answer is that it's
not something I've considered. I do a number of things that are "good" for the
environment (recycling, composting, don't own a car, etc.) but I haven't ever
even explored CO2 offsets. Just never occurred to me.

~~~
mikro2nd
In fairness I think it's a fairly new thing for individuals (as opposed to
large companies) to even be able to buy offsets, but I'm betting it will
become a much larger trend quite quickly, perhaps even required in some
jurisdictions. It's not a 'perfect' solution, but at least a step toward doing
/something/ rather than shrugging off CO2 emissions as a merely inevitable
consequence of air-travel.

------
vidanay
Where does that extra width for the middle seat come from? Taken from the
window and aisle seat width?

~~~
anticensor
Slightly narrower corridor.

~~~
wongarsu
I don't think a single-aisle plane has 6 inches of corridor to spare.

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jmpman
For those of us with broad shoulders, being set back a few inches is going to
turn me into a pretzel. Yes, I understand that with a “normal” seat, my
shoulders violate my seat mates space. The only option I’ve found is to claim
a window seat where my shoulder is aligned to the window cutout. As there’s no
way to determine this arrangement with online booking tools, I prefer
Southwest where my status allows me to always get that shoulder/window seat.
And my company also doesn’t pay for seat upgrades, so I’m stuck gaming the
reservation system to land a southwest flight.

~~~
magduf
You should try to get flights on Airbus planes instead, as they usually have
wider seats. Southwest only flies 737s, which have terrible seat space because
it's an ancient narrowbody design.

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t0mas88
The solution I like most is flying on Embraer 170/190 aircraft for short
(within Europe) trips, because they seat 2-2 instead of 3-3 like a 737. Also
solves a big part of the carry-on luggage issues and boarding goes much
faster.

Longer trips Air France has 1-2-1 seating on the 777 in business class, really
like that for long flights alone for work. Enough to accept a 1 hour layover
in Paris for it, because it means you can sleep all night on your way to Asia
or on the way back from the US.

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DisruptiveDave
And the last middle seat in the entire plane? What happens there?

~~~
peteretep
Do you believe the last seat in a plane is generally completely flush with the
galley wall?

~~~
Guest0918231
It's not unusual for the last row on planes to already have limited recline,
so there's not an abundance of space behind them.

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fergal
2019 and we're just figuring this out now.

~~~
jessaustin
It's because most people running air travel over the decades had a military
background. "You'll sit in straight lines and you'll _like_ it!"

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addicted
I’m worried the window seat would trigger claustrophobia in me.

I’d feel trapped in based on the arrangement shown in the images there.

~~~
technofiend
The exit row window seat on my flight yesterday was pretty tight left to
right. At some point airlines shrank the buffer space between the window and
window seat to zero, so there's no longer space for your arm on the window
side. Squeezed between a full-sized adult on my right and the wall to my left
was no way to spend four hours. tl;dr: Airlines need to stop shrinking the
distance between seats on the same row.

~~~
magduf
They probably shrank the buffer space because everyone was complaining about
the seats being too narrow. Do you want buffer space, or a wider seat?

~~~
technofiend
>Do you want buffer space, or a wider seat?

Both. I want to go back to reasonable seat sizes even if costs go up because
as it stands I'm choosing to fly less and less with the current seat pitch. In
fact I _did_ pay $100 out of pocket to upgrade my seat to economy plus and was
lucky to snag a business row seat, or so I thought. It was in fact a miserably
crowded experience.

~~~
magduf
The ticket prices back in the days of "reasonable seat sizes" were much more
than your economy plus ticket cost. One of the big reasons flying is so
affordable now is precisely because they can cram so many people in.

~~~
technofiend
What a difference an inch makes! Southwest happily competes with United with
very similar pricing yet they have 32-33" seat pitches with some jets using
31" vs United running 32-31" pitches with some seats now down to 30". Weirdly
it looks like Jet Blue has even larger pitches, peaking at 34". Since Jet Blue
and Southwest are considered discount carriers vs United clearly pitch isn't
exclusively about price. It's also about profit, particularly when Southwest
also has _wider_ seats than United.

Seriously I'm glad we had this discussion because despite living in Houston I
think I'll by flying Southwest in preference to United from now on.

[https://www.businessinsider.com/america-airline-legroom-
guid...](https://www.businessinsider.com/america-airline-legroom-guide-seat-
pitch-2017-3#delta-air-lines-2)

~~~
magduf
I'm not talking about Southwest vs. some other American carrier in 2019, I'm
talking about American carriers in general in 2019 vs. American carriers in
1985. They had more room back then, but ticket prices were much more than they
are now, after adjusting for inflation.

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lhball
Oh great, now anytime the window seat needs the restroom we get a little hug
on his / her way.

~~~
jessaustin
Maybe this new arrangement would make that phenomenon worse, but it already
happens now, doesn't it? I've long thought that there should be a sort of grab
bar hanging from the overhead locker, like you see on subways, to help people
who have difficulty staying balanced while entering and exiting the row.

~~~
HeWhoLurksLate
There's generally a lip on the overhead storage locker thingies, and they're
definitely load bearing.

~~~
jessaustin
It seems like many of the people who need this worst are the least able to
flex and reach that lip... also it's hard to reach from the window seat.

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rajacombinator
Only chance this gets adopted in America (assuming it works as promised) is if
airlines can upsell them as premium++ middle seats while cramming the
premium+, premium, and sardine classes even further.

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Yizahi
It looks like window and isle passengers will push their elbows right in the
torso of middle passenger. But it is hard to judge without actually sitting in
such seat.

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jonheller
I would kill for a standard middle seat compared to the middle seat I get
stuck in sometimes on my hour long commuter train.

It's a three seater that comfortably fits two. Not only is it a tight for for
three, but there are no arm rests, meaning you are squeezed shoulder-to-
shoulder the whole time.

I've taken other trains (notably NYC) that don't seem to have this. Only the
MBTA seems cursed with this layout. Wouldn't be a huge problem if the train
wasn't standing room only (for at least a half hour) meaning people are
squeezed as-is.

~~~
tatersolid
Metra trains in Chicago have the opposite problem. The standard 2x2 seats in
the main floor are way too wide, leaving 8-12 inches between two chubby
adults. This results in the aisles being too narrow and everyone getting
clobbered with purses and backpacks as passengers move down the aisles.

Don’t get me started on the inane layouts of the upper levels of these cars
(half forward and half sideways seats, guaranteeing each passenger getting on
and off a crowded train car has to trip over 12 sets of legs).

The sad thing is that rail cars cost hundreds of thousands and are customized
to each railway customer. A bit of cheap mock-up engineering before purchase
could allow maybe 10% more passengers per car, and much faster and more
pleasant loading and unloading.

------
yellowapple
The slightly wider width is a game changer; if this catches on, I'd happily
spring for middle seats for that alone.

------
bluedino
Meanwhile, companies like Frontier are installing the thinnest plastic 'bowls'
they can legally still cause a seat and stripping inches of legroom.

