
Body count rises as Philippines president calls for drug addicts to be killed - gedrap
https://asiancorrespondent.com/2016/07/philippines-duterte-drug-addicts/
======
jister
DISCLAIMER: I am a Filipino and I live in the Philippines

When an international media writes something without much knowledge on what's
really going on it blows out of proportion. Now let me give you an idea of our
situation here before the Duterte presidency.

HISTORY

==============

The Marcoses and Aquinos and their cronies, have brought the Philippines to
its knees for decades (50 years). These families are what we called the
"elites" and they are actually the ones who are pulling the strings behind the
scenes. They own the local media and the news that you can watch/read were all
filtered. Guess what happens when an international media make our local news
as the source of their publication?

DRUGS

==============

We are almost in a narco-state before the Duterte presidency. Just a few days
ago 5 police generals were mentioned that they are the protectors of the DRUG
TRIAD here in the Philippines. It was also mentioned that 23 mayors are also
linked to the triad and this is just in the 2nd week of Duterte's presidency.
It is also rumored that people linked to drugs goes way up the ranks --
senators, justice, congressmen, etc. President Duterte had a list of people
involved and the same list were given to the former President Aquino but he
did nothing.

Today, a few thousands drug addicts/pushers surrendered. Drug addicts who turn
themselves in are given rehabilitation and jail time for pushers. Hundred were
taken out by the police because they fought back. One even thrown a grenade!

President Durterte emphasized a lot of times that everybody should follow the
law. Police should operate within the bounds of the law but I guess this
wasn't mentioned every time a foreigner write about him.

KILLING IS WRONG! But, we live in a different and a more challenging world
than the rest of you. What is white for you may be gray for us.

WATCH THIS:

==============

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUVA6GDinvM&feature=youtu.be](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUVA6GDinvM&feature=youtu.be)

~~~
smegel
Mexico could do with a President like that.

~~~
gunnihinn
Yeah, fighting the cartels directly has worked like a charm so far.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War#Casualties](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War#Casualties)

~~~
dragonwriter
By many accounts, the Mexican Drug War has involved very little of the
Government fighting on one side and "the Cartels" on the other, and very much
of elements of the government (including the military, _especially_ units of
the Army) selling exclusive rights to particular regions to particular
cartels, and fighting against that cartel's rivals in the region.

Which is not to say that actually fighting against the cartels would actually
produce good results.

------
OoTheNigerian
As usual, mostly western commentators sitting on their high horses pointing
and pontificating with no idea of local context or understanding.

First of all, Duterte was elected overwhelmingly with a clear mandate of using
brute violence to clear out drug dealers. He was clear about it and he is
delivering on that mandate. I have to accept, he has made a PR error by not
calling them terrorists. At which point, he will be sold drones that can also
wipe out families in addition to the druggies.

The fact is, you do not get radical progress pandering to western styled
hypocritical democracy or "human rights". It's the reality. A harsh one. Of
course, I will not be so "logical" if I happen to be at the receiving end of
such needed reform. But hey.. it's what life is.

At least, no set of drug dealers are at greater risk because of the colour of
their skin.

PS: I am speaking like a man living in a country where some not so nice things
will be needed to be done if we are going to ever progress.

~~~
zouhair
Hitler was also democratically elected. What will happen in the Philippines
now is that anyone who any grudge with anyone will just kill that person and
label him a drug dealer.

~~~
nindalf
Labeling him a drug dealer won't be easy because its difficult to prove that
he dealt drugs. The logical thing to do would be to label your victim a drug
user instead. Far easier to simply plant some drugs in their house, kill them
and collect your medal for saving society.

~~~
masklinn
> Far easier to simply plant some drugs in their house

Isn't the normal procedure to just sprinkle some crack over their body?

------
akerro
Wow, think about it. On one side we have Elon Musk, who wants to build a city
on Mars, make interplanetary travels quick and cheap and he's doing it, there
are people who want to kill you for your skin or hair colour. There is PM of
Portugal who decriminalised drugs (saying: "drugs break families and
relations, and so is facebook. We're not going to ban facebook") and there is
a president who kills drug addicts, people in US, UK waste 1/3 of their bought
food, Venezuela doesn't have water supplies in hospitals. Truly brave new
world.

~~~
joe5150
can you explain how a city on Mars is meant to contrast with racism or...hair
colorism(?).

~~~
alanwatts
>You have made tremendous strides in the area of scientific and technological
development. But America, as I look at you from afar, I wonder whether your
moral and spiritual progress has been commensurate with your scientific
progress. It seems to me that your moral progress lags behind your scientific
progress. Your poet Thoreau used to talk about "improved means to an
unimproved end." How often this is true. You have allowed the material means
by which you live to outdistance the spiritual ends for which you live. You
have allowed your mentality to outrun your morality. You have allowed your
civilization to outdistance your culture. Through your scientific genius you
have made of the world a neighborhood, but through your moral and spiritual
genius you have failed to make of it a brotherhood. So America, I would urge
you to keep your moral advances abreast with your scientific advances

-Dr. King, 1956

[http://kingencyclopedia.stanford.edu/encyclopedia/documentse...](http://kingencyclopedia.stanford.edu/encyclopedia/documentsentry/doc_pauls_letter_to_american_christians.1.html)

------
guelo
Philippines is a corrupt mess at all levels of society. The electorate is
desperate and has opted for a ruthless strongman after decades of
disappointments. They say Mussolini made the trains run on time.

~~~
kyledrake
My college history professor used to postfix that saying with "...because if
they weren't, they'd shoot the conductors." Never figured out if he was joking
or not, actually.

It's a great example of "be careful what you wish for". Trains on time, then
30 million people die in a war you helped forge, then your country becomes
destroyed. I'll happily live with the late trains.

RE this crazy drug policy: very, very bad things happen when rule of law
breaks down and we go into vigilante justice. Moral arguments aside, how many
innocent people have died because of this already? It's an absolutely horrible
idea.

------
cgs1019
The link cites a vice article that cites a guardian article:
[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/01/philippines-
pr...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/01/philippines-president-
rodrigo-duterte-urges-people-to-kill-drug-addicts)

~~~
FreedomToCreate
[https://xkcd.com/978/](https://xkcd.com/978/)

~~~
lordnacho
[http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/how-a-raccoon-
became-...](http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/how-a-raccoon-became-an-
aardvark)

------
feklar
This extreme policy also comes with an amnesty program if you surrender to
police, with rehab, work and welfare. It's how he cleaned up Davao by
disappearing gangsters and offering the ones left this olive branch program.

China and Indonesia dissappear thousands of addicts and criminals every year
too the only difference is it's not advertised in the media as a killing free
for all. This guy also gave Indonesia the green light to go after Abu Sayyaf
kidnappers basically inviting them to invade those autonomous islands.

~~~
simplemath
Oh, China and Indonesia are doing it, and he's offering an amnesty program??

Well you've sold me! Line 'em up!

------
libeclipse
Is this a joke? Surely something so utterly stupid can't be real.

This man just gave the public free rein to murder and get away with it.

Jesus this planet is insane.

~~~
geowwy
Seems crazy but people of the Philippines knew what they were voting for. This
is exactly what he did when he was mayor of Davao:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodrigo_Duterte#Davao_City_may...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodrigo_Duterte#Davao_City_mayor)

To play devil's advocate: Drugs and the criminal networks supported by drugs
are a massive problem in the Philippines. Police are too weak and too corrupt
to deal with it, but this is a solution that works, even if it does offend our
first world sensibilities.

~~~
jacquesm
> Police are too weak and too corrupt to deal with it

Yes, so let's go kill a bunch of people, instead of reforming the police
force.

~~~
calgoo
So can we kill corrupt cops as well then? I mean if we are going to go full
circle, lets just kill everyone we dont agree with. That will solve all our
issues! /s

~~~
rbanffy
Of course, the people with guns will kill the people who doesn't have guns.
Since drug dealers and drug users never have guns, it's easy.

------
electic
> During the campaign, Duterte said 100,000 people would die in his crackdown,
> with so many dead bodies dumped in Manila Bay that fish there would grow fat
> from feeding on them.

This isn't a joke. This is real. What a sick bastard.

~~~
cocotino
Tell that to those who are tired of not being safe in their own homes because
of the drug lords. Of course it's easy to say he's sick when you live in a
civilised place with police protection.

~~~
simonh
I'm sure if the entire country was heavily armed and bullets were handed out
like sweets the situation would calm right down very quickly. The US arms
industry would be happy to provide them with a nice bulk discount.

~~~
ehnto
You seem very sure and I can't think of why you imagine this would work.

Give everyone a license to kill, give everyone a gun, and after that you think
everything would just sort itself out? Do you believe that only the right
people will survive and then everything will be fine?

Absolutely no risk of a violent degradation into chaos, looting, riots?

~~~
simonh
I've never liked using /sarcasm tags, but I have to concede they are sometimes
necessary. Unbelievable as I find it, some people really do think that way.

~~~
ehnto
Ah bummer, you are right, I missed the sarcasm. It's definitely a sentiment I
have come across before though, and it always strikes me as an odd world view.

------
abpavel
So, I can kill anyone and claim they were an addict? Who is going to prove me
otherwise?

It's dissapointing that people see this as something to do with drugs, while
in reality it's just a green light for a killing frenzy.

~~~
xerophyte12932
That was my first thought as well, but then I realized normal people aren't
just waiting with stow away guns waiting for the day they can go on a killing
frenzy. The type who are like that are possibly connected to drug as wells (as
either addicts or part of the criminal machine) which means they are more
likely to go into hiding lest they be killed themselves.

Yes, maybe some murderers will slip under the radar, but the numbers so far
look good. Only 30 deaths over the country (that's no killing frenzy) and 952
people have surrendered to the authorities. I'd say it's working

~~~
restalis
_" then I realized normal people aren't just waiting with stow away guns
waiting for the day they can go on a killing frenzy"_

No, it seems that unknowingly, the "normal people" were waiting for the people
with guns, and all of them together were waiting the right time, which is now!

 _" Only 30 deaths over the country (that's no killing frenzy) and 952 people
have surrendered to the authorities. I'd say it's working"_

Who gives you the figures? As I understand, the president's opposing figures,
including journalists, were targets for some time already! ...for being drug
dealers or addicts, allegedly. It's safe to assume that the ones that left to
live have to really impress the president with their reporting.

------
ilitirit
Reminds me of a conversation of I had with a Cameroonian recently. He said: "I
don't understand how these drug dealers and criminals can get away with so
much in your country [I'm from South Africa]. Where I'm from the soldiers will
take you to the bush and execute you. That's how they brought peace to my
country. The military kidnapped all the criminals and drug dealers and killed
them".

I don't have any way to verify this, but he seemed pretty happy about it and
hoped they would do it in other countries too.

edit: Wait... did I just read correctly? He gave _the public_ permission to
kill drug addicts? That's the WTF of the year.

~~~
restalis
_" Where I'm from the soldiers will take you to the bush and execute you.
That's how they brought peace to my country. The military kidnapped all the
criminals and drug dealers and killed them"_

So, an armed faction took out another factions or group of factions out of the
picture in the most simple and grotesque way, by kidnapping (instead of public
apprehension) and summary execution (instead of prosecution with a trial that
gives the culprits the chance to defend themselves). This armed faction has
been called "the military"? And the murderous cleansing - "peace"? And after
all this someone actually seriously considers them and their deeds as an
example worth following? I find this kind of thinking comparable to any of the
doctrines promoting mass murdering in the name of solving something and the
individuals advocating such methods to be a danger to the general public!

------
IIAOPSW
Finally a politician who keeps his election promises.

------
jacquesm
What an idiot. The highest government official calling for extra-judicial
killing of citizens should lead to a single indictment. What's really
disturbing is that this guy got voted in.

30 people in _4_ days.

~~~
johnhaltonx
well you're right, but as a side note multiple US presidents have authorized
target killings in an undeclared war in countrys that are not part of this
"war" with civil casualties .... and both got reelected ....

I'm from germany, we're helping because our government does nothing in
stopping the use of Rammstein Airbase as drone satellite uplink. So we are
also partly responsible. :(

food for thought

~~~
jacquesm
That's true but besides the point. Imagine Obama, Bush or Clinton calling on
national TV for the killing of all drug addicts and pushers.

> I'm from germany, we're helping because our government does nothing in
> stopping the use of Rammstein Airbase as drone satellite uplink. So we are
> also partly responsible. :(

> food for thought

Definitely, but totally OT.

~~~
herbst
I don't want to be euphemistically. But i've seen several public interviews of
all of them where they justified killing people they claimed to be terrorists.
While numbers showed that a majority are actually civil victims.

You can not really compare that, but i honestly think thats even worse. At
least officially the philippines only kill THEIR PEOPLE people that damage
THEIR society.

------
geomark
A major problem is that since many of the police are involved in the drug
trade it becomes open season on their adversaries. Same thing happened in
Thailand when Thaksin first because prime minister and declared open war on
drug dealers. There were 2,500 extra-judicial killings, many of which were
retaliation for drug deals gone bad and some just revenge killings of people
who weren't even involved in the drug trade. There's bound to be a lot of the
same thing in the Philippines.

------
faklco
Even more frightening is how widely supported Duterte and his death squads are
in the Philippines. He has strong ties to the Davao Death Squad which operated
whilst he was mayor of Davao City, and the Philippino public largely supports
the executions.

~~~
prawn
I think that's the most concerning part of this (and other concerning but
slightly less insane potential leaders around the world) - that the public can
be so easily convinced that this is a reasonable choice.

Is it that the craziest plans standout against the two regular options? Or
that the regular options hedge their bets and don't appear to adequately
address issues concerning the masses?

~~~
dragonwriter
Very often, the "conventional" options in a democratic republic end up
representing competing visions of how to address the issues that matter most
to elites (not necessarily the upper class alone, but the upper and middle
classes -- which together are still usually a minority of the population --
and maybe the upper end of the working class), who in normal times are often
the vast majority of participation in the political system. They often have
less contact with the bulk of the working class (including the nonworking
poor) and their concerns, which when things get _especially_ intolerable for
that class, and their immediate interests get most divergent from the elites,
opens up a big opportunity for unconventional populist alternatives (often
including exploitive totalitarian demagogues, though positive reform-oriented
uplifting populism also happens at times, sometimes competing with the other
kind.)

------
cyberferret
Truly, we live in a world gone mad... Where will this end? In a few years,
shooting jay walkers will be the norm...

~~~
rimantas
[http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2...](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2014/12/the_world_is_not_falling_apart_the_trend_lines_reveal_an_increasingly_peaceful.html)

~~~
cyberferret
I am reassured.... carry on world...

(You do notice that most of the graphs lower down the page have a sharp uptick
towards the far right ?!? especially "Violent Victimisation at School",
"Prevalence of Mass Killings", "Rate of Death in Genocides and Other
Killings", "Wars > 1000 Deaths/Year" whilst things like "Rape and Sexual
Assault", "Physical Abuse", "Sexual Abuse" show a small uptrend)

------
e19293001
Meanwhile on reddit:

[https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/4sj7q2/body_coun...](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/4sj7q2/body_count_rises_as_new_philippines_president/)

------
Jedd
This is probably a relatively gentle precursor to what we're going to see
happen over the next few weeks or months in the south of the country as the
same 'wild west' approach is applied to the Abu Sayyaf problem.

------
FreedomToCreate
Hypocrites in powerful positions are more dangerous than even incompetent
leaders. There is no way this guy does not have a history of drug use.

~~~
restalis
The more I think about, the more I get inclined to believe that this guy has
indeed to be on some drugs himself in order to do what he just did. Or that
others need drugs to get in a state of thought in which this president happens
to persist naturally due to madness!

------
alanwatts
How do we know Duterte isn't working with the Cartels like so many others in
his position? If true, this would be a great plan to consolidate the supply
chain by efficiently/extrajudicially killing off the competition while
increasing profits.

Economics 101: increased risk = increased reward

Reminiscent of the 1986 drug laws[1] in the US increasing punishments by 100
fold while at the same time US officials were helping import billions of
dollars of cocaine[2] to help fund Nicaraguan death squads[3].

[1] [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-
Drug_Abuse_Act_of_1986](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-
Drug_Abuse_Act_of_1986)

[2][https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/"Freeway"_Rick_Ross](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/"Freeway"_Rick_Ross)

[3][https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_North](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_North)

------
alexmingoia
Let's not forget Thailand killed over 2,500 people suspected of drug use or
dealing, and one investigation found no connection with drugs in _half_ of
these deaths. [1]

1\.
[http://nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/read.php?newsid=300...](http://nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/read.php?newsid=30057578)

------
bluejekyll
I had this T-shirt a friend of mine gave me years ago, it simply had a silk
screen on it that said "legalize murder". It was meant to be an _ironic_
liberally extreme idea of granting freedom to do whatever you wanted.

It was meant to be over the top. I can't believe I just read that it is quite
literally happening.

------
thesehands
So both kill demand as well as supply to eradicate the market? If they were
looking for an extreme response why not have the government take a monopoly
supplier position, nationalise the army to take over the production?

------
noja
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao8L-0nSYzg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao8L-0nSYzg)

------
daktari
Add this to the mix for this new crazy president:
[http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/13/world/asia/south-china-
sea...](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/13/world/asia/south-china-sea-hague-
ruling-philippines.html?_r=0)

------
aaron695
It's concerning that the reddit conversation seems more measured than HN on
this issue (5 hour mark, 12:00 UTC)

What up HN?

Why does someone saying I live there get them upvotes without logical remarks?

~~~
nxzero
Missing the link to said reasoning or said reasoning from you.

The top comment reflects the heart of the issue. Being logical about it,
reasoning your will on others, etc. - won't change the world - that's
unreasonable.

------
seesomesense
Just call them Isis inspired terrorists and the USA will give you free drones
and shiny new guns to kill them with.

------
fucking_tragedy
Oh hey, a discussion that can't be nullified by Godwin's law. Good job,
Philippines.

------
coldcode
I believe the article headline should be "drug dealers" not "drug addicts".

~~~
nxzero
>> FROM THE STORY: Speaking to a crowd of 500 in a Manila slum, Duterte said:
“If you know of any addicts, go ahead and kill them yourself as getting their
parents to do it would be too painful.”

------
smarks
How long until Trump says something like, "He's a bad guy -- really bad guy.
But you know what he did well? He killed drug dealers. He did that so good.
They didn't read them the rights. They didn't talk. They were pushers. Over."

~~~
briandear
Are we making the leap that Trump supports killing drug addicts? We could
invoke Hillary if we want with her famous statement, "What difference does it
make?"

This has nothing to do with Trump or American politics. Not a single candidate
in the US has called for the extra-judicial execution of drug dealers or
users. Trying to draw an equivalence to Trump is absurd.

~~~
pluma
As a non-American I find the Trump/Hillary rhetoric extremely weird. Many
"liberals" seem to think Trump is Adolf Hitler reincarnate (which is absurd --
he's just a populist). Many "conservatives" seem to think Hillary is an "SJW"
(which is equally absurd -- it's evident a lot of her more progressive stances
are window dressing rather than deeply held convictions).

Trump is an opportunistic buffoon, Hillary is cold and calculating. But both
really just want power at any cost. The differences are not even remotely as
significant as voters seem to believe. Sure, they hold opposing views, but
neither of them is a saint and neither of them is going to openly do stupid
drastic things like telling civilians to murder other people in the streets.

~~~
croon
I agree with everything you say, apart from a part at the end.

> ... and neither of them is going to openly do stupid drastic things like
> telling civilians to murder other people in the streets.

Sure, that's valid. But while I'm no fan of Hillary, she is, as you said, cold
and calculating, which I posit as the major difference between the two. Trump
is hotheaded and impulsive, and while we'll never see him (knock on wood)
condone senseless killing in the street, he HAS expressed a plethora of
outlandish statements (later retracted), so little out of his mouth surprises
me.

This does not oppose your description of the two, other than Trump can say
~anything, Hillary won't.

~~~
pluma
To be quite honest, yes, I could see him _say_ that. But only because he seems
to have little inhibition to say whatever comes to his mind without thinking
of how people will react to it. But I couldn't see him enacting such
_policies_. That's the important differentiator IMO. Let's also not forget
being a president is slightly more involved than just saying things to make
them happen.

~~~
croon
Absolutely. Thank god for bureaucracy ;)

------
kimmshibal
Addicts in Asia are not the same as in west. They are worst. They will do
anything to get drug. They will get into your house, put knife on your throat
and take your money and jewelry. Police can't do anything because they are
lazy and corrupt, unless there's a body.

~~~
oblio
So the solution is to allow people to kill random strangers and then claim
that they killed an addict?

Or even better, they will kill competitors/people they don't like and then
claim that they killed an addict.

~~~
kimmshibal
Why you say they will kill random stranger? They kill an addict. Prisons don't
have space anymore because gov don't have budget. You are welcome to go to my
country and get mug by them. Your view will change.

~~~
pluma
Addicts are humans, too. We're not talking about killing an addict in self-
defense. We're talking about being explicitly told to seek out and murder
addicts.

Do you not see any moral problem with that?

~~~
kimmshibal
Addicts create more problem to our society here. They killed innocent people
just to buy stupid drug.

You can choose to kill bad people or let it slide. The latter will cause more
problem to society. Prison will do nothing. This is not scandinavian country.

~~~
Lingster
Might fight the causes for the addiction instead of the symptoms? Sounds like
an idea? But hey, your approach worked great in Cambodia that time in the
70s..

------
ben_jones
One year's pay he has a overly stocked medicine cabinet himself, all
prescription of course.

------
dvirsky
This sounds like something out of a dystopian novel. I guess we're living in a
world that's a mix between Idiocracy and Brave New World now.

------
tux3
An attempt to kill a whole subset of the population, this is genocide, isn't
it?

It might be appropriate to refer this lovely gentleman to the International
Criminal Court.

~~~
kbart
No, it's not. Genocide has a clearly defined meaning[1]:

 _" Genocide is the intentional action to systematically eliminate an ethnic,
national, racial, or religious group"_

1\.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide)

~~~
mcbits
The "geno" literally means a race or lineage of people. If the definition can
be expanded to include national and religious affiliation, then it might as
well be expanded to include other social groups. It's the act that's
atrocious, regardless of semantic technicalities.

