
China temporarily shuts down thousands of factories in pollution crackdown - kimsk112
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/china-shuts-down-tens-of-thousands-of-factories-in-widespread-pollution-crackdown/ar-AAtZIqD
======
nopinsight
A less mentioned reason for pollution curb is that China wants to attract
their top talents back home, as well as global up-and-comers who wish for more
accommodative research funding. Most top Chinese students who studied abroad
are currently residing in the US, working in major tech companies and
academia.

They created the Thousand Talents program for promising and distinguished
researchers, Chinese or otherwise, to work and stay in the country with salary
comparable to the West, in nominal terms, and many extra privileges. [1]

Pollution is a major concern among those who are interested and this gives
additional urgency to the government.

Basically, they understand very well that top talents are essential for
developing advanced technologies they need, and they are pushing very hard to
develop native talents and attract promising ones from other countries. This
is the Singapore playbook that has propelled their two universities into major
institutions in engineering and other fields within a few decades.
(Engineering programs in both Singaporean universities are now ranked in the
top 10 or 20 in the world. Also, both Tsinghua and Beijing are ranked in the
world's top 10 in AI publications recently, but they plan for more
universities to move up in more fields.)

[1]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thousand_Talents_Program_(Ch...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thousand_Talents_Program_\(China\))

~~~
bustrakcan
> Basically, they understand very well that top talents are essential for
> developing advanced technology they need

Because companies around the world are now aware of the fact that Chinese
government steals technologies. Also, Chinese government is too late trying to
get talents back.

Most of the laowais (expats) that were in Guangzhou, that were in technology,
have left in recent years. The only foreigners left are africans trying to eek
out a living and English teachers who can't make it anywhere else. You can
imagine the reasons why: poisonous air that will give you cancer, poisonous
food that will give you cancer, dirty water that will give you cancer,
horrendous traffic (and everyone driving around honking and disregarding
rules), bad mannered locals (imagine jackhammering at 4am, spitting, elbowing,
cutting in lines), censorship, foreigners getting arrested without a reason,
expensive rent (compared to quality), no way to be connected to the western
internet without VPN (and recently, VPN have been failing as well), no way to
talk to families overseas. And this is in the top province in China. Imagine
tier 88 or even tier 2 cities. (shudder)

There's no reason to be in China other than to make money, then get the hell
out. And that seems to be even harder now with the economy stagnating and
everyone blowing bubbles into the real estate.

Thank god I got out of China. Many already have.

~~~
nopinsight
Your story illustrates why they are focusing on pollution control and
developing the Social Credit System.

"..the Social Credit System will focus on four areas: "honesty in government
affairs" (政务诚信), "commercial integrity" (商务诚信), "societal integrity" (社会诚信),
and "judicial credibility" (司法公信). Media coverage has thus far focused mostly
on the rating of individual citizens (which falls under "societal integrity").
However, the Chinese government‘s plans go beyond that and also include plans
for credit scores for all businesses operating in China."

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System)

~~~
shin433333
China's too late.

China's Debt to ratio is a staggering 833%

[http://www.baldingsworld.com/2017/10/23/everything-we-
think-...](http://www.baldingsworld.com/2017/10/23/everything-we-think-we-
know-about-chinese-finances-is-wrong/)

Why China Lost About $3.8 Trillion To Capital Flight In The Last Decade

(FDI was only 1.3T over the same decade, leading to a massive loss)

[https://www.forbes.com/sites/insideasia/2017/02/22/china-
cap...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/insideasia/2017/02/22/china-capital-
flight-migration/)

So no money.....and recently it prevented South Korean companies from
withdrawing assets from China. Now companies around the world knows. Who's
gonna invest in China now?

[http://www.businesskorea.co.kr/english/news/national/19352-e...](http://www.businesskorea.co.kr/english/news/national/19352-exodus-
china-s-korean-companies-suffering-omnidirectional-retaliations-china)

~~~
cepth
I think there's an important distinction missing here.

First, NET FDI (foreign direct investment) into China was 1.3 trillion USD
over the last decade, not nominal:
[https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/BX.KLT.DINV.CD.WD?locat...](https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/BX.KLT.DINV.CD.WD?locations=CN).

FDI is a pretty imperfect measure for a short period of time. If a Chinese
company buys foreign assets, say mines in Africa or forests in South America,
that counts as a net outflow. In the long run though, those investments may
well pay off handsomely. For a rapidly developing country with a high savings
rate, there's no inherent reason why Chinese companies investing abroad should
be an indication of _doom_ for China.

As someone who regularly does business with Chinese companies, it has been my
experience that it has never been harder to remove currency from China. It is
true that capital controls have become increasingly tight.

Edit:

Additionally, given the regulatory difficulties of foreign companies investing
in China, it's not surprising that outflows of investment by Chinese companies
outsize incoming foreign investment into China.

~~~
ehllo
if someone is interested in the actual situation, the following videos are a
good starting point

Davos 2017 - China's Pivot to World Markets

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8HsNfQIZQs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8HsNfQIZQs)

Davos 2017 - Strategic Update: The Future of Energy

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wvln5Ce_Sk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wvln5Ce_Sk)

------
jbrun
We are seeing increased action on environmental compliance in China. Our SaaS
company offers tools to help businesses comply to environmental (and safety
and quality laws). We recently bought a company in China that is in the same
business and I can tell you that the citizens are very happy with government
initiatives and companies are taking this seriously. (Separate post coming
about SaaS in China).

I have lived in China for 1.5 years in 2005, 2010 and returning a lot now and
I have travelled pretty much everywhere in the country, in my humble opinion,
China is on a very interesting path that will make it hard for the US and EU
to compete in a variety of sectors. We shall see.
[https://www.nimonik.com](https://www.nimonik.com) and
[http://www.envitool.com](http://www.envitool.com) are the companies in
question.

~~~
vfulco
Good luck with the new initiative. Can't come quickly enough and should
provide growth for decades.

I live in SH and run a professional services company. At the margin, does seem
attempts are being made.

Vince Fulco, CFA, CAIA Weisisheng Consulting vfulco[@]weisisheng.cn

------
Animats
It took only about 10 years after the Clean Air Act in the US before the big
cities such as Cleveland and Pittsburgh had clear skies. China should be able
to do it faster, since the technology already exists and cars already come
with pollution controls.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
China's biggest problem in doing this is not technological, but based on the
fact the party doesn't believe in rule of law, so their are nonmechanisms to
enforce regulation beyond official fiat and periodic crackdowns, neither of
which are sustainable in the long term.

They have crackdowned before, many times actually, but without real continuous
enforcement of rules, factory owners are caught in a horrible prisoners
dilemma given how hyper competitive production is (if your competitor cheats
and you don't, you'll be out of business quickly). In this case, political
reform is directly related to the environment.

~~~
Animats
Yes. Some inspector who was trying to get a sample of Diesel fuel from a
distributor to test for sulfur and such was told "you have the obligation to
do that, but not the authority."

Here are the rules for Diesel fuel in China.[1] The official standard for
sulfur has been been slowly lowered from 0.2% to 10 ppm, but enforcement is
weak. There's a weaker standard for "nonroad Diesel" for tractors and such.
It's observed that at night, when the blue trucks roll into Shenzhen, the
pollution level goes way up, because they're using "nonroad Diesel".

The US is now <15ppm sulfur for all Diesel uses except ships. It took 25 years
to get there. The EPA is (was?) trying to get ships down to 1000ppm within 200
miles of the US.

It's not that hard to enforce this, because there aren't that many refineries.
China has only 75 refineries. The US has about 125. Not that many places need
to be inspected.

[1]
[https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/cn/fuel.php](https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/cn/fuel.php)

~~~
hwillis
> The US is now <15ppm sulfur for all Diesel uses except ships. It took 25
> years to get there. The EPA is (was?) trying to get ships down to 1000ppm
> within 200 miles of shore.

Already done (knowledge only due to personal interest), but it only applies
within 200 miles of shore. It's also the IMO (International Maritime
Organization, a UN agency) rather than the EPA. Currently the limit on open
waters is at 35,000 ppm (3.5%), which will tighten to 5000 ppm in January of
2020.

Sulfur aerosols are just as bad as NOx and create just as much smog. They also
turn into acid rain. They have a noted anti-geenhouse effect, but again...
acid rain.

It should also be noted that there is basically zero technical or economic
justification for sulfur pollution. It requires no significant inputs: a
catalytic step that results in hydrogen sulfide, then a regenerating amine
reaction (effectively solvent distillation), and finally the hydrogen sulfide
is burnt (as in energy-producing) to produce elemental sulfur, which is sold.
This is how the majority of sulfur is made.

------
michalxnet
Xi is smart guy and must be sad seeing this every day
[https://www.windy.com/overlays?cosc,33.358,107.644,5](https://www.windy.com/overlays?cosc,33.358,107.644,5)

~~~
throwaway2016a
Thanks for pointing out that site. That is an awesome map. I find it very
interesting / telling that the US has bright red areas for CO2 as well but all
of them are at major shipping ports and in the ocean. Not surprising seeing
how much pollution shipping creates.

~~~
stephengillie
Why does the Grand Canyon have such a huge pocket of CO? It's over 1200ppbv.
Is there currently a forest fire there? The air quality there looks as bad as
over Staten Island or some Chinese cities.

~~~
keithlfrost
That pocket looks rather like an anomaly in the data. There is a very large
coal-fired power plant (Navajo Generating Station) near Page, Arizona, though.

------
austinl
China is also pushing 1 in 5 cars sold to be electric by 2025. The government
definitely seems to be taking the problem seriously.

([https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/09/business/china-hastens-
th...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/09/business/china-hastens-the-world-
toward-an-electric-car-future.html))

~~~
tw04
At least someone is... it's a sad, sad day when the supposed "leaders of the
free world" insist on burying their heads in the sand WRT: global warming.
Even if we _ARE_ wrong, acting as if reducing pollution is a _bad thing_ is
just silly.

~~~
adventured
That's extremely far off base.

The US has seen its CO2 emissions consistently falling for years, while
generating ever greater economic output from its falling CO2 emissions output,
a trend that is set to continue regardless of what the White House does.

The US is presently a leader at reducing its CO2 output and CO2 output per
unit of economic growth. Its CO2 emissions from energy production is at a 26
year low, a time when the economy was half its present size in real terms.

Per capita CO2 emissions in the US have declined by nearly 30% since their
peak, per the Department of Energy. They're back to where they were in 1960.
The trend-line is persistently down.

Several major economies of Europe are seeing similar aggressive trends in
general CO2 emissions and per capita emissions.

China's CO2 emissions are still rapidly increasingly by contrast. They have no
plans to actually reduce CO2 emissions, their plan is to _maybe_ slow the
increase in the next two decades. They also have no plans to reduce their
extreme consumption of coal, rather they plan to try to have more renewable
energy as a share. Currently China is producing at least 2x the CO2 output of
the US with growing CO2 emissions, while the US has an economy 60% larger with
a trend of falling CO2 emissions (set to continue as natural gas & renewables
replace coal).

It's often said that the blame should be on the developed world because
they're outsourcing pollution to China. At this point that's blatantly
incorrect. China has made a choice about how it manufactures, to keep its
costs artificially low so as to remain competitive. The US has doubled its
substantial manufacturing output in roughly 30 years, without any
corresponding output spike in CO2. China is cutting environmental corners,
because if they don't the cost of their manufacturing would go up
significantly.

~~~
chmod775
"Consistently falling for years": The current downward trend is just a blip in
the general trend across all recorded data since ~1900

"Leader at reducing its output": Down is easier when you're standing on a
mountian instead of at sea level.

"Per capital...": US per capita output is still higher than China's.

It really is a matter of how you look at it, and which timespans you observe.

Looking at the same data you could come to vastly different conclusions:

[https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/01/climate/us-
bi...](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/01/climate/us-biggest-
carbon-polluter-in-history-will-it-walk-away-from-the-paris-climate-deal.html)

~~~
adventured
> It really is a matter of how you look at it, and which timespans you
> observe.

No it's not. China is producing 2x the CO2 of the US, while the US has an
economy 60% larger. China's emissions are still rapidly climbing and are set
to continue to do so.

> The current downward trend is just a blip in the general trend across all
> recorded data since ~1900

So you're predicting that the US is going to dramatically reverse course and
begin producing a lot more energy with coal, soon? That's the only way the US
CO2 decline trend is going to reverse course and consistently move higher. You
must also be predicting that the US is going to entirely skip the inbound
electric car change-over. As it looks now, the US is seeing the slow death of
coal, with increasing electricity from natural gas and renewables, while
simultaneously the US is about to adopt electric cars (like much of the
developed world). Would you mind supporting your counter premise with some
kind of data?

> US per capita output is still higher than China's.

It should be. US GDP per capita is five to six times that of China. China's
CO2 output is 2x that of the US. That means the US is radically more efficient
than China when it comes to economic output vs CO2 output.

China's CO2 output has been climbing rapidly the last five and ten years. The
US added $4 trillion to its economy while reducing its CO2 output. China is
such an immense polluter when it comes to CO2, that within perhaps just 15
years that per capita CO2 imbalance will decline to near zero - with the US
still possessing 3x to 4x the GDP per capita of China.

~~~
chmod775
You may have a differing opinion, but to me "per capita" is the only fair
metric there is, unless you can make a convincing argument Chinese are somehow
worth less than Americans.

And "per capita" still places the US solidly at the top of global polluters.

"per GDP" is an useless metric to me. You don't get to have more of the pie
just because you managed to figure out how to get fatter eating it.

~~~
fhood
> unless you can make a convincing argument Chinese are somehow worth less
> than Americans

At the moment, if we are viewing people as a resource, in terms of economic
production per individual, they are.

That aside, I agree with you in general, but the point can also be made that
It is not fair to compare the US and China per capita because in theory China
is still a developing country, and only when the standards of living are
similar between the two countries would the comparison be fair.

This assumes that improving standard of living is more important to China than
controlling emissions though.

~~~
PeachPlum
Per unit of production is a far better metric for export economies.

Per capita is only meaningful without international trade.

------
chiefalchemist
When the USA exported it's manufacturing, it also exported the associated
pollution.

That being said, just because the pollution is manufactured overseas doesn't
mean the USA won't eventually breathe, drink or eat it. The USA might have
cleaned up its own backyard but that doesn't mean net pollution from US
consumption is down.

~~~
syrrim
There are a billion people in china, I have a hard time imagining that none of
them contribute to polution for their own ends.

~~~
chiefalchemist
Certainly they do.

But when the factories left America for China, so did their smokestacks. For
all intents and purposes America outsourced it's pollution problems.

Yet no one talks about that? Why do you think that is?

p.s. Regardless of China's billion+, the USA still out consumes them.

------
killjoywashere
Read Hank Paulson's book, Dealing with China. That's a the former CEO of
Goldman Sachs who opened the Chinese banking markets, and became Secretary of
Treasury, overseeing the financial collapse here in 2008 (1). It's from 2015,
goes up through October 2014.

He knows Xi. Well. Read that book.

[https://www.amazon.com/Dealing-China-Insider-Economic-
Superp...](https://www.amazon.com/Dealing-China-Insider-Economic-
Superpower/dp/1455504203)

------
United857
I'm more than willing to bet that this is due to the Communist Party Congress
and the attendant media spotlight shining on China.

They did the same thing during the Olympics. Afterwards, though -- same old
same old...

~~~
cepth
Also happened during the 2016 G20 summit in Hangzhou. There's a Chinese phrase
for it, "G20 blue" or "G20蓝".
([https://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2016/08/26/china-
basks-i...](https://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2016/08/26/china-basks-
in-g-20-blue-as-factories-ordered-to-shut/))

That said, this doesn't seem to be a localized shutdown, of the kind we saw
during the Olympics or G20 summit. I know of a number of Chinese factories in
industries ranging from finished wood products to consumer electronics that
have been shutdown nationwide for "environmental audits".

------
tomkat0789
> This has temporarily stopped production from wide swaths of factories along
> China’s east coast and forced some factory owners to move supply chains to
> other countries.

What's the next country down in the environmental/cheap labor race to the
bottom? Is India about to see huge manufacturing growth?

~~~
dforrestwilson
Malaysia and Indonesia. Some smaller companies have already shifted there.

~~~
vfulco
This year I assisted some displaced workers in SH whose jobs were being moved
by a Fortune 1000 company from PRC to Malaysia. The exodus is real and
companies have to diversify their risks.

------
davesque
I guess this is one example of an upside to authoritarianism. When the
leadership decides something is important, you'd better get with the program
or else...

That being said, it's a shame that the US is having difficulty demonstrating
the upsides of democracy and capitalism on this front.

~~~
PeachPlum
You just need the will

EPA Bans PCB Manufacture; Phases Out Uses

EPA press release - April 19, 1979

[https://archive.epa.gov/epa/aboutepa/epa-bans-pcb-
manufactur...](https://archive.epa.gov/epa/aboutepa/epa-bans-pcb-manufacture-
phases-out-uses.html)

------
xvilka
The funny thing about many US and EU enviroment protection supporters, that
they drive an abandonement of almost pure nuclear energy use, while increasing
the dependecy on coal and oil energy plants... And those produce not only
chemical, but also a radiological pollution.

------
alexandercrohde
I have to commend China for taking drastic action in response to their drastic
problem.

As I understand it, it's actually very feasible to apply a carbon filter to
the smokestack of a factory itself.

~~~
justicezyx
Totalitarianism does have some benefits.

~~~
polotics
[citation needed] How is applying the rule of law totalitarian?

~~~
mannigfaltig
Totalitarian systems are quicker to come up with the rules (in this case for
self-preservation). And when time matters, then it has obvious advantages.

~~~
maxxxxx
Businesses can react quicker because internally they run like dictatorships.
That's why I am always wary of people wanting to run government like a
business.

------
tryingagainbro
Eventually they had /have to do it. Looks like you need to poison your air to
industrialize but after a while you need clean up. Part of the trend. After
people achieve a few basic needs they ask for cleaner air, less asthma and
cancer.

Talking abut...efficiency. Can we guess some many lawsuits will be filed in
courts against this? I'm guessing, zero. Must have been illegal all the time,
but tolerated, until it wasn't.

------
keebEz
Flexport wrote a blog post on this a few weeks ago as the first waves it were
happening: [https://www.flexport.com/blog/massive-factory-closures-
china...](https://www.flexport.com/blog/massive-factory-closures-china-cracks-
polluters/)

------
adamnemecek
China has been trying hard to change it's image recently.

~~~
tristanj
China's central propaganda department spends $10bn+ per year on overseas
propaganda, it's no surprise that money is going somewhere.

~~~
komali2
Well, I'd want to see a source for this, but my personal experience doesn't
make it hard to believe that they'd be pumping out externally-facing
propaganda.

That being said, the changes can be felt on the ground level. Public dialog is
_changing_ about climate change.

~~~
tristanj
The $10bn figure is from 2 years ago, it's likely higher today
[https://www.ft.com/content/324d82c4-2d60-11e6-a18d-a96ab29e3...](https://www.ft.com/content/324d82c4-2d60-11e6-a18d-a96ab29e3c95?mhq5j=e5)

~~~
whooshee
FT itself is heavily invested by the Japanese.

~~~
tristanj
Your point being? It's well known that China spends billions on overseas
propaganda. The $10bn on propaganda has been reported in multiple outlets.
Does the Nikkei Times article on it somehow make the figure untrue?

Also, your entire comment history is just pro-China comments. Why is that the
only topic you think is worth discussing on the site?

------
stephengillie
How will this impact imports and the US economy? Are there any mid-Kickstarter
businesses who are having to refund donations because the factory cancelled
their work?

------
ransom1538
I believe the world is warming through man made causes. However, I think it is
just a byproduct of overpopulation. Pollution cannot be stopped with a
exponential population curve. So turn off plants, recycle, re-arrange chairs,
and volunteer all you want - but, in, 2040 I am not sure how we will support
9billion - without lots of waste.

------
xiii1408
msn.com??? Wonderful 90s throwback. Didn't realize this still existed.

~~~
darkstar999
It's still the #46 website in the world according to Alexa.

~~~
TeMPOraL
I didn't realize Alexa is still considered as a good source of data.

------
ourmandave
Sounds like someone in China has finally seen the documentary _Godzilla vs the
Smog Monster_ and doesn't want to end up like 1970's Japan.

Especially since they don't even have a Godzilla protecting the shore line.

~~~
justicezyx
China's push to clean energy and advanced manufacturing to reduce pollution
dated back at least to 2003, because I saw people investigating natural gas in
an area that can produce high quality coals really cheap (Shanxi province).

