

Ask YC: MBeA or to not be - is an MBA worth a hacker's time? - samratjp

I know this is a heavily hacker infested place (it's a good thing :) but, I've been asking this question to many hackers with MBAs and I get different answers all the time. I have come to the conclusion that an MBA curriculum is not as worthy as other technical knowledge, but the networking is worth it, especially if it's a top tier school. Bonus question: which MBA program would is worthy of a hacker's time, i.e. geek friendly :) Any worthy opinions?<p>(How I jumped to the conclusion: read a gazillion different materials from Andreessen to Bezos to bozos, became a research assistant at a top business school to see what the heck professors really think about the curriculum, and of course, talked to a few dozen MBAs across the world in different fields)
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lux
I remember Steve Jobs in his speech at Stanford saying that he dropped out
because he didn't see the value in it. That amused me :)

I can't say whether an MBA is worth it since I don't have one, but I can say
that in my experience it's not necessary. Action is necessary. You can learn
by jumping in and doing something. Some people may need teachers and
curriculum for motivation/guidance, but you can find that in lots of other
places as well. Networking happens after school too, but can take a bit more
effort initially.

The back story in my case is I left home at 18 and moved to a new town. I was
one credit shy of my high school diploma too, so technically I'm a drop-out. I
lucked out and got a job as a designer/coder, and kept learning over time on
the job. I did try a university course for programming, but I dropped it after
a month because it sucked. I ended up starting my own software company shortly
after (turned 7 this year!). I did make some good contacts in my month at
school, even hired the program director as my sales guy for about 4-5 years :)
I've been working on various startups since, learned a lot, and I'm launching
my latest in a month or so.

So in my experience, nothing stops you from starting a business except
yourself. If you're willing to learn by doing, which naturally you learn a lot
on the job anyway, then I say screw the formal edu and dive right in!

~~~
samratjp
Yes, that speech is an all-time favorite I suppose amongst many dropouts. That
is a quite a story you have there, lux; I suppose burning bridges can make one
act, but indeed it takes a little bit prudence to guess when to burn the
bridge. What I am trying to say is keep up the good work :) Please do drop me
a line (click on profile name), I'd like to talk further about this, for I am
having a hard time calling shots on value.

MBA - yes, it seems to be a tough call; so far,the most interesting thing a
hacker MBA told me was that a lot of MBAs either do it because a) they don't
know what they want to do next b) their current job sucks and want to get out
of it.

~~~
lux
I don't think there's a "message me" option in the profile pages. I just
posted my email to mine though, so feel free to email me :)

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gcv
I have a slightly skewed perspective, but I spent four years working at a Wall
St. firm, and discovered that, while many people in finance have MBAs, the
best frequently do not. The placement even worked that way: an analyst out of
college gets a two-year contract in banking or trading, then the bank makes a
decision. The chaff gets thrown away, the mid-range is sent to an MBA program
and returns at the associate level, but the best stay on for a third year as
analysts and then immediately become associates.

This doesn't address the question very well, I suppose, and obviously people
outside of finance get MBAs. I feel that, at the end of the day, an MBA
program is what you make of it. It can be a valuable networking opportunity.
It can be two years off from working full-time. If you're thinking of going
into it to learn about derivatives and accounting, then I suspect you're
better off learning it on your own.

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epi0Bauqu
It really depends on your situation and what you want to do. That being said,
I can't see any MBA program being worthy of a _hacker's_ time.

MIT's program is recognized as one of the most quantitative programs, but from
experience, it is really not all that quantitative or analytical. My graduate
program at MIT (TPP) was in the third floor of E40, right next to the Sloan
School (across a walk bridge). I took some classes there (various econ
courses). I helped TA one MBA class entitled Digital Business. My wife was a
statistics TA there (PhD in OR dept., also in E40). And my one of my thesis
advisors was a Sloan professor.

When I took classes there the actual MBA students (as opposed to other MIT
grads and undergrads) were easily overwhelmed with the math and frankly not
interested in it. Many would start and drop my wife's courses (through no
fault of her own!). As a result, the actual MBA courses ended up being dumbed
down, even though I wouldn't be surprised if the MIT program _is_ more
quantitative than others.

The MIT MBA program is also known as a more geek friendly place. There is an
IT track you can select. But, similarly, the classes aren't for hackers at
all. My wife took one of the core computer classes, and it was so ridiculously
not hackeresque it wasn't even funny.

Anyway, you can easily learn everything on your own. Is there value in
networking? Sure. But you can get that without spending $120K+. You can either
enroll in a program like the one I did where you actually get paid to go to it
(imagine that?). Or you can just start participating in the community
(business plan competitions, talks, social events, etc.).

Are there other reasons to go? Sure. In many jobs on Wall St. you still need
an MBA to cross a threshold in the company. My sister-in-law is in one of
those jobs and they eventually paid for her to go to an executive MBA program
on the weekends. She didn't learn anything there she didn't already know.

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dangoldin
First of, I don't have an MBA but I contemplated it at one point. The
conclusion I came to is that it's only worth it if it is a top 10 program.

In the case of a hacker I would probably go for a Stanford MBA due to to the
connections you can make there as well as the tech friendly area. A lot of the
North Eastern business schools are very finance heavy.

It may also be worthwhile to think of a sales/marketing MBA - combined with
the hacker knowledge that seems like a win/win. Northwestern, I believe, is
very good in that regard.

~~~
streblo
MIT, Northwestern and Stanford all have great programs. But getting into those
programs is easier said than done.

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sfalbo
I did a part time MBA program that was designed specifically for working
professionals. I found it to be very useful - not necessarily for the class
material, but to learn first hand about the other industries that my
classmates were working in. I found that this information could be very useful
for identifying software opportunities that I wouldn't otherwise think of on
my own. Ultimately, whether you go back to school for an MBA or an advanced
technical degree, the program will be what you make of it.

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kingnothing
It seems like a lot of people here are missing the point of an MBA. You don't
get one primarily for what you learn; you get one for who you can meet. Sure,
you're going to learn some stuff you didn't know, but top MBA programs are
aimed at people who were in an industry for a couple of years and have
experience. The purpose, learning wise, is to fine-tune your skills. You
should go after an MBA mostly for the networking opportunities, not the
learning opportunities.

~~~
chaostheory
I agree, but I'm not sure it's worth the $60-$100k (not including opportunity
cost)... I would think if you live in a major metro that there are other
venues for that.

Then again the credibility it brings if you want to go to finance in Wall St
or move up in Big Corp X may be useful to some people (assuming that you go to
a top 10 MBA program)... but probably not too useful to most of the people who
come to yc news

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maximilian
Its going to cost you about $130,000 to get an MBA. (2 _$50,000 tuition + 2_
15,000 living expenses) Think of all the bad-ass shit you can do with
$130,000. You could buy all the sweetest electronics and hire an cheap
electrical engineer fulltime for like two years and build something sick. You
could invest that in your savings and be 5-10 years closer to retirement and
then do fun things and not have to work for the man.

~~~
maximilian
2x50,000 + 2x15,000 btw. Parser ate my stars. How do we escape this? backslash
star?

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staunch
I'd be too afraid it'd turn me into the kind of person many MBAs are. Work
with assholes and you risk becoming an asshole. I learned that in the
financial industry the hard way.

~~~
streblo
I don't think that businessperson 'asshole' stereotype is always well
deserved. I've worked with a lot of MBAs who are competent, caring, and good
at programming.

~~~
staunch
I don't think all business people are assholes and I didn't say that.

My point was really just to bring up the idea that the people you surround
yourself with can have a big influence on who you become. There's a lot you
can say about the way hackers behave in general and the same is true for MBAs.
In both cases there are lots of exceptions.

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indiejade
Yes. Though I would hesitate to endorse a particular degree of "added value"
from an ivy-league branded MBA. Do a simple cost-benefit analysis.

It occurred to me, during graduate studies for my MBA (at a lovely state
University, thank you very much), how various disciplines have their different
lingo. Perhaps the most valuable thing I got from the program was instilled by
osmosis -- the lingo associated with a variety of disciplines, industries,
etc.

If anything, an MBA teaches you the lingo of lingos; that is, it doesn't so
much teach how to be a "generalist" (as was stated earlier), but more about
how to be a "relativist". There are interesting problems to be solved in a
variety of industries, and knowing both l33t and business speak puts you in a
much better position for dealing with a variety of different people.

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prakash
There is a subtle but important difference between understanding how business
function and going to business school, the former is more important when
starting a startup.

If you want to learn more about the business aspects, move to a different role
in your current company in the business side, like Sales, Sales engineering,
etc.

The opportunity cost in time and money is another concern. You can take the 2
years of time, and probably less than 1/2 the amount you would spend on B
school to startup your startup, which, would be a better learning opportunity.

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samratjp
A flip side of the same question: a doctoral friend of mine recommended that
if one were to really get something out of grad school heavy-lifting and still
learn critical thinking business skills, go for a PhD in any management
science or economics; reason being a) Get paid to learn b) some programs award
an MBA anyway c) learn a lot more behind the scenes than any MBA program. But,
I have seen this to be very rarely useful hackers turned, for example,
marketing gurus. Any thoughts on this?

~~~
brianlash
Whatever the skills it gives you, the PhD in Business is designed for those
who want to teach at a university level.

They're highly competitive (I think 2-5% accpetance rates are the norm) and it
would be tough to outperform the other students in the admissions process
unless you can demonstrate the same or better "fit"; that is, Odds are even
more stacked against you if you intend to use your education to practice, not
to teach.

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johnm
Totally not worth the time (unless you're going to switch careers or something
like that). As so many people noted yesterday, you can get all of the useful
information from books and blogs and self-help groups. Also, anything that
it's not worth your time to learn on your own, you'll probably hire/outsource
anyways (e.g., payroll, legal, hr, etc.).

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nradov
I'm not sure if I qualify as a "hacker", but I am a development manager for a
small software company and hold an MBA from SCU. All of my prior experience
had been in product development, so the MBA was useful primarily for gaining a
broader perspective on other areas such as marketing, finance, and operations.
It would have taken me much longer to learn the same things through work
experience and self study.

If you do decide to pursue an MBA let me put a plug in for my alma mater. It's
a good choice since you can work full time in Silicon Valley and then go to
school nights and weekends.
[http://www.scu.edu/business/graduates/admissions/evening-
mba...](http://www.scu.edu/business/graduates/admissions/evening-mba.cfm)

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kansando
It goes back to the specialist vs. generalist question. An MBA experience will
help you become more of a generalist, you will interact with people who are
different from you and solve problems differently. It will also open up career
options you may not have today, hedge funds, investment banks, consulting -
some of which are intellectually interesting and pay well. Even if you decide
to do a startup later, you will have friends working at VCs & operating
companies that you can get help from.

If on the other hand you have decided that you want to live the rest of your
life as a hacker, maybe it is not such a good idea. In any case, don't
consider schools beyond the top 5 (Stanford, Harvard, Wharton, Chicago and
maybe MIT).

~~~
chaostheory
The thing is you don't need an MBA to be more of a generalist. You can read
all the class material at a fraction of the price. Not to mention in SV you
have a lot of other venues for networking.

I talked to a graduate of Stanford's program about his opinion on it. He told
me the biggest value the program gives you are new contacts (He didn't really
think the class content was anything special), but since he didn't want to go
to Wall St/ or to Big Corporation X (where the cred helps at times) he felt
that he should have just skipped it and instead just dived into a startup
(using his MBA school money for the venture instead).

Good MBA programs typically cost from $30000-$50000 per year and it doesn't
even include opportunity costs.

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chendy
MBA's are great for 2 things:

1) If you are not a business undergrad, or have not picked up these skills on
the job, then an MBA is a great way to get a solid business understanding that
will prepare you for another type of work.

2) High ranking MBA programs attract serious talent, and then network that you
acquire at a respectable university is also very valuable.

So really, if you want to change jobs, and want some credentials and training
and/or want to fill up your linkedin profile with some future superstars, it's
a worthy investment. Otherwise, it's probably not worth the time or money.

~~~
edw519
"MBA is a great way to get a solid business understanding"

Having an MBA, many years business experience, and heavy hacking experience, I
would have to strongly disagree with this statement.

If you want the initials after your name, fine. But please don't be deluded
into thinking there is any real correlation with a business school education
(at any level) and "solid business understanding".

I always hated the expression, "Those you can, do. Those who can't, teach."
But I think business school may be my one exception. Make no mistake about it,
these are two different worlds: those with business battle scars and those who
like to talk about the theoretical. Even when I go back to my alma mater and
watch an alumni's business presentation, I actually cringe when one of the
professors gives his take.

I would never discourage anyone from getting more education; this is one case
where getting that education from actual meaningful work experience blows away
college.

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dustineichler
I've heard you either startup or go to business school. Either way, both are
similar. Personally i'd choose starting_up.

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edw519
I honestly can't think of any good reason today why someone who could hack
would want an MBA.

If you're concerned about learning, you will learn more about business in one
good hands on project than 2 years of formal education.

If you're concerned about having a mentor, you will meet infinitely more
business saavy people in business than you ever will in school.

If you're concerned about money, 2 years of earning will put you hundreds of
thousands of dollars ahead of 2 years of spending.

If you're concerned about what others think of your credentials, you're
focusing on the wrong thing.

If you're concerned about climbing the corporate ladder more quickly, then
fine. Get an MBA. What are you doing here?

And, most of all...

If you're concerned about making yourself the best you could be, then hack,
hack, hack. You already excel at the weakest link in the business chain. You
will get better by continuing to "do" in your specialty. More school will add
little, cost you time, cost you money, but most of all, cost you experience
doing what you already love and what the world needs most right now.

(Response to Bonus Question: One of the best post-graduate business programs
for technical people is Carnegie Mellon. Ironically, they don't award an
"MBA", but an "MSIA", Master of Science in Industrial Administration. Even
they don't care for the MBA.)

~~~
wheels
This is quite inaccurate. There exist jobs for which the above are true, but
not most.

 _If you're concerned about learning..._ Sure, but it'll be completely
different stuff.

 _If you're concerned about having a mentor..._ Or not. Real leaders in the
corporate world are rare.

 _If you're concerned about money..._ Not really. If you've worked and then go
back and got an MBA you come back at mid-management.

I'm hardly a cheerleader for MBAs, but the stuff that you've written here is a
little too typical, "hacker with a chip on his shoulder". I've seen a lot of
people learn good stuff in MBA programs and I've seen more waste their time.
It's not one size fits all.

~~~
edw519
"This is quite inaccurate."

Maybe for someone, but not for me.

"it'll be completely different stuff"

Exactly. That's my whole point. Some things I learned in my MBA program, like
the time value of money, were at best, easily gleaned from dozens of books at
Borders. Other things, like marketing strategies and case studies, were just
wrong and counterproductive. Nothing valuable I ever learned on the job was
even on the business school's radar.

"Real leaders in the corporate world are rare."

True. And much rarer in academia.

"If you've worked and then go back and got an MBA you come back at mid-
management."

So what? Been there, done that. As an experienced hacker, I don't remember the
last time I had a mid-manager who earned more than I do. They are easily
expendible. I am on the critical path.

"hacker with a chip on his shoulder"

No, just one who loves what he does and has seen the light. If you can hack,
don't make the same mistake I did. Forget the MBA and get better at hacking by
hacking.

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systems
You might enjoy it ... I got my MBA from this programme www.mbaip.com

The thing is it was fun, we had amazing instructors professors, like Pierre-
Louis Dubois and Michel Kalika

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Harj
you should never dismiss somebody based on a single fact such as they have an
MBA. doing so only restricts your options which isn't something a founder can
really afford to do.

