
Show HN: PageRocket – A website builder that your grandfather can use - anges244
https://pagerocket.xyz
======
brudgers
I'd like to be able to check it out, but there is nothing on the page
describing the tool. The next best thing would be to check it out using a fake
email, but I cannot confirm from the fake address.

While it might make sense to verify email addresses when the app is in full
production (but probably does not), when the goal is to get feedback, putting
friction into the process is (at least in my case) counter productive. At the
very least, I am going to switch browser tabs to process the email and then
wind up on another page to confirm it before I get back to looking at what I
wanted to see. In between...well...I've got Hacker News open and there's
probably something more interesting there than dealing with email and thinking
about the possibility that I am signing up for spam. And that's about the best
case for using an email sign up.

All that for an email address rather than usage data about the product. I know
email addresses have some value, but the valuable addresses are those of
_engaged_ users and an email address != a user (let alone engaged user).

My random advice is to consider what problem email signup solves for potential
users and whether or not it drives away the kind of users that might be good
for the site.

Good luck.

~~~
anges244
Actually it is in full production and the goal is to get feedback so that's
why it's completely free. The email needs to be verified as this is the
address you'll receive contact messages from your created website, thus the
need to be correct. It's not about the value but not to send emails to an
incorrect address. I have set it to confirmed so you can proceed.

~~~
brudgers
Thank you. There was no way for me to determine that the project status is
more than an email harvester with above average effort at design.

Maybe placing email entry and verification into the relevant technical context
might make that clearer. It would also keep users on the page longer, by which
I mean that even the legitimate need for email and verification entails:
Taking the pure gold of someone who has actually landed on the site and
sending them somewhere else to conduct an unpleasant administrative task. Now
the caveat is that I hate email in general because my inbox is a todo list of
things I have not done (at the very least I have to _process_ everything in
it). There are exceptions for actual conversations, but that's not what a
confirmation email is.

Anyway, I will check it out and thanks again.

~~~
anges244
Oh, I get how boring this is but the decision was to take the boring part out
first and allow the users to later focus on the real process! Anyway, noted
and I'll try to think of another solution!

~~~
brudgers
The product is quick and easy to use...even if my grandpa's use case probably
doesn't match any of the three primary options :). The aesthetics are
tasteful.

My design advice is to get rid of the part that is unpleasant to the maximum
extent possible. That's what good design does. It's one of the things Hacker
News gets right.

How useful are email updates with static text versus a dashboard that can
slice and dice data? Sure some people will want email because that's the way
they have always done it. Some people will want email updates because it fits
their use case. But everyone won't so it can be opt in.

Or to put it another way, it's not clear that most people will have the
problem that email notifications solve or at a finer grain, that the problems
that come with email notifications are less painful than the problems that
email notification solves.

Riffing a bit...email notifications could be an upsell. The conundrum I
encounter with free platforms is investing time in building something when
there is not an obvious revenue model.

~~~
anges244
The revenue model is simple in this case. For everyone that wants to use a
full website (custom domain, analytics, no attribution), a small price is
worth it. Adding the notifications on the dashboard is the next step but for
now receiving it directly was much easier and instant. I think any grandpa
would love to receive contact emails! Haha... By the way you had me worried
that it looks like an email catcher website and added a features page. Hope
this is a good step but anyway, you are the one to blame!:-P

~~~
brudgers
0\. It's the 'a small price' plus a free tier that concerns me in terms of
sustainability for a business. It makes sense of Walmart to provide and
_maintain and support_ free software because the free software:

    
    
      a. does not cannibalize sales transactions.
      b. does not have design incentives to be delibrately
         bad/frustrating/incomplete
      c. does not allow the creation of bad business metrics
         like "Look how many free users it has!"
      d. *does* create a virtuous cycle where there is revenue
         for support and maintenance proportional to its use.
    

The free tier of a paid product does the opposite of each. Not only is the
paid tier "competing with free" the company itself is actively _anchoring_ the
price to 0€.

1\. 10,000 free users and 1000 paid users means supporting 11,000 users on the
revenue from 1000 (and that's assuming an optimistic 9% conversion rate and an
optimistic 1000 users). With the current pricing that's less than 50k a year
before expenses.

2\. The revenue model in #\1 suggests a significant probability that the
business will be underfunded. Underfunded businesses tend toward ceasing
operations. I mean if the business gets to 1000 paid accounts a year from now
at a steady rate, that's only 25k in the first year.

3\. Where I am going is that the as a business proposition, if it is worth
investing the time in building and managing a website on PageRocket, then it
is probably worth 50€ a month and with 50€ a month per paid account, there is
money to run a business and incentives to make the product worth 50€ a month
or 100 or 200.

Of course, if the goal is passive income, then that's a different model.

4\. There was an interview with Jeff Atwood (I think on Hanselminutes but
maybe Software Engineering Daily) where he described the three things a
landing page has to do. The two I remember are it has to tell people 'what it
is' and 'why the person should care'. A lot of goes in to those will be
subject to interpretation by the visitor. "Oh a box to type in my email
address" leads to a lot of quick assumptions that it is probably better not to
have people make.

~~~
anges244
I think you are right but since it's an immature product, we had to decrease
the price significantly.

The goal is somewhere between passive income and becoming something more so
maybe that's why the mixed signals. Have to take a look at that, I guess.

I know and we did the math on how free users impact our finances but had to
somehow launch it and get attention. What would you suggest? Trials and
increased pricing? By the way, thanks for providing your feedback!

~~~
brudgers
I'm all for 'shipping' by which I mean making something and getting it in
front of people and getting feedback. [https://blog.ycombinator.com/minimum-
viable-product-process/](https://blog.ycombinator.com/minimum-viable-product-
process/)

Launching, not so much because often the idea of launching creates a PR driven
process optimized around getting attention rather than the hard work of
talking to people at the risk of rejection. It's not that PageRocket is not a
fine piece of work. It's more than GoDaddy and Wix run advertisements on TV
for free websites and WordPress has a free tier and that's what PageRocket is
competing against (plus its own free tier).

 _but since it 's an immature product, we had to decrease the price
significantly_

There are many people, including myself, who feel reluctant to charge people a
lot of money and find reasons to lower their prices. One way of validating a
business idea is whether or not people will pay a substantial amount of money
for something that has not yet been built. Patio11 (Patrick Mackenzie) tells
the story about validating Appointment Reminder here:
[https://www.conversionaid.com/podcast/patrick-mckenzie-
kalzu...](https://www.conversionaid.com/podcast/patrick-mckenzie-kalzumeus/)

I recommend his advice (since much of what I have written here is stolen from
him, much of the rest was stolen from YC) regarding bootstrapping a business.

The third source of my advice is my own business experience. I've learned that
getting to "No" quickly is better than a slow death of maybe and starvation
revenues that only allow writing the rent check.

~~~
anges244
To be honest you got me! In my mind shipping is the way to go and in the last
few days launching is a weird option I almost get dragged into pursuing!
Haha... You got the reluctant to charge part completely right and I know you
make a great case. Will try to do it the hard way since this is more
disappointing and you easily get caught up in a momentary launch fantasy that
does not exist! Thank you again for everything!

~~~
brudgers
I'm not saying it is impossible. I am suggesting that it is hard and the hard
part is talking to people about something that they might not want.

PageRocket is a really nice piece of work and could be the basis for a
profitable business I think. But that profitable business probably means going
out and selling to one customer at a time...there are a lot of small
businesses in the world for which PageRocket could be a very very good
solution.

Currently, I see a possible business that is closer to the design agency end
of the spectrum than the Wordpress end. Design agencies ship and don't really
launch.

37 Signals is that sort of model. It was a design agency that eventually built
a product, Basecamp. StackOverflow is sort of similar...Fog Creek Software was
both a consultancy and built FogBugz. Slack was a game company before it hit
on a product.

I want to reiterate that the process for PageRocket is well designed and the
aesthetic results tasteful. I suppose one way of putting it is that the
quality of what I see suggests that the team is capable of building something
businesses might pay 'real' money for and I hate the idea that the bar would
be set at a place where doing so becomes unlikely. So in the end, I guess I am
encouraging you to aim higher or at least at higher fees.

Another HN classic: [https://jacquesmattheij.com/double-your-price-and-no-im-
not-...](https://jacquesmattheij.com/double-your-price-and-no-im-not-kidding)

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hitsurume
Tried to use a generic password / no password and got this: Βάλε ένα έγκυρο
κωδικό με τουλάχιστον 8 χαρακτήρες...

No idea what that says since I read only english, but i'm guessing it's a bug.

~~~
Nadya
Greek. Password must be at least 8 characters.

~~~
anges244
Well done Nadya! I must have forgot that! Embarrassing.. Will fix immediately!
Thx!

------
sauronlord
Says build a website instantly.

But when I click the link it requires me to fill in 2 fields and verify my
email.

Maybe we have different definitions of "instantly"

~~~
anges244
Haha! I think we do! As instantly as a website can be created wouldn't fit
there! But seriously now, instantly refers to the publishing process and not
the account creation one. You just fill out your account details, a few
important settings and two-three fields and you create a fully functional
website that can receive emails, subscribers and can have multiple pages.
Sorry if I mislead you!

~~~
wingerlang
You should really just ask for the email when they press save or something. I
am sure it will give you a better sign up rate.

~~~
anges244
You mean no password? Or to skip the confirmation process?

~~~
wingerlang
I mean to move the requirement for signing up until after they have built with
the tool. Take them directly to the builder, and when they want to save their
progress - ask them to login.

~~~
anges244
That would have been a good thought, but when started, we decided to go with
the classic approach! Thankfully, this additional friction hasn't had any
significant impact to conversions! Anyway, thanks and it's something I'll keep
in mind for future versions or projects.

