
When Citi Bikes Are Faster Than Taxis in New York City - lil_tee
http://toddwschneider.com/posts/taxi-vs-citi-bike-nyc/
======
verelo
Not much love for biking here; You'd almost think that most of the people on
Hacker News are from Californian suburbs...

Seriously though, biking in cities is great. It's one of those critical mass
problems where the more people that do it the better the infrastructure gets,
the more aware drivers become and there is a herd mentality where bikers tend
to flow together making them more predictable and therefore safer to be
around.

I bike and drive in Toronto [i probably drive more than bike, depends on the
weather and somewhat the mood i'm in], both have big up and downsides, just be
considerate to everyone which ever you're taking part in!

Edit: I forgot to say, those Citi bikes in NYC [Bikeshare in Toronto,
Santander in London] have a special cohort of people riding them. The bikes
are so slow [heavy!!!], and the riders are casual riders. I love that it gets
people moving, and I use them from time to time, but damn the whole experience
of riding next to one is scary even as another biker.

~~~
dkhenry
What I have found is there is a tiny minority of people who _hate_ bikers.
They tend to pop up and make wild claims about how dangerous bikers are, or
how much they dislike how bikers use the streets since streets are for cars,
and bikes are for children. What I have found in actually talking to people is
most people support and encourage bikes, and would love to bike, but don't
feel safe. Bikes make everything about traffic better, and most bikers observe
the traffic laws. The best response to people who protest is to continue
biking just like you would normally. As bike use grows everyone is safer, and
more people feel safe biking. That grows the bike community and helps make a
safer place for biking for everyone

~~~
e40
_What I have found is there is a tiny minority of people who _hate_ bikers._

I walk 4 miles a day on city sidewalks. The number of times I have to yield to
bikers on the sidewalk is disgusting[0]. And some of these bikers are going
_fast_. I once saved a child that was about to run out of a store. I could
see, from my vantage point, the biker and the child set for a collision
course. I stepped in front of the biker, doing about 20 mph on the sidewalk,
to stop them. I got an earful of 4-letter words not a thank you.

Of course, there was the 20-something woman killed in a crosswalk by a biker
running a light in SF a few years ago.

As a pedestrian, I have no love for many drivers or bikers, since they are a
constant source of danger.

EDIT:

[0] I had an argument with a young woman at a light once, where I told her
politely that she wasn't supposed to be on the sidewalk. He response? To tell
me I was a selfish person not wanting to share the sidewalk.

~~~
imgabe
Better bike infrastructure keeps bikes off the sidewalk.

As a biker you can't win. Drivers try to run you off the road, pedestrians
don't want you on the sidewalk. Bike lanes are a solution, but the political
will needs to be there.

That being said, in places where bikers feel they have to use the sidewalk,
they should absolutely yield to pedestrians.

~~~
andrewla
In places where bikers feel they have to use the sidewalk, they should
absolutely walk their bikes. It's what the law says and its very sensible all
around. If you have to go the wrong way up a one-way street or if the road is
blocked, you can just get off your bike and walk it for a block. It's not the
end of the world to have to walk for a minute.

As both a biker and a pedestrian in NYC, this seems so glaringly obvious that
it never fails to make me angry when I see a biker blithely biking down the
sidewalk. In a city of impatient people riding your bike on the sidewalk is
taking things to an anti-social extreme.

That said, I do find it frustrating (as both a biker and a pedestrian) when
pedestrians fail to yield to bikers when the biker has the light -- New York
pedestrians are opportunistic jaywalkers by nature, but so many people fail to
look for bikes or yield to them, even when they have the light, if the street
is clear of car traffic.

~~~
dmm
> they should absolutely walk their bikes.

In many places of the US you have sidewalks built because they were mandated
by law but are rarely used.

A typical example will have a 4-lane 45+mph road next to big box retail
stores. This type of road is unpleasant to bike on but the adjoining sidewalk
is empty and, assuming it has sufficient visibility to allow the cyclist to
avoid left and right hooks, is much safer than the road.

NYC is a fascinating and important place but for better or worse is very
different from the typical US city.

------
dr_
As a pedestrian crossing the straw in NYC, you will typically wait for cars to
stop, then walk about 2/3 of the way into the street, then peer into the bike
lane to make sure no bikes are coming, then complete your crossing. Most of
the bikers, from my experience, do not follow rules such as stopping at a Stop
sign or for pedestrians or at their own bike designated stop lights.

It may be nice to bike in the cities parks or on its outskirts, but it's a
dangerous proposition in the city itself. NYC is an urban jungle with a web of
cars pedestrians, delivery trucks, garbage trucks and construction zones all
over. As a biker, if you are not going to follow the rules, you are going to
find yourself in trouble at some point.

~~~
ChrisBland
A million times this! I live in Chicago and am an avid biker (been doored by a
cab, right of passage i guess?) I am one of the few who stops at stop signs
and slows down or stops at cross walks to watch for pedestrians. I attend my
local alderman's meetings to push for more protected bike lanes which we are
now getting, but my fellow bikers are making us all look bad wrt following the
rules of the road. I can't tell you how many times I've almost gotten hit
crossing a cross walk by a biker flying down the street without looking or
stopping for pedestrians. We are now at the point where bikes are truly
getting to share the road, but we are forgetting that we don't just share with
cars, but with pedestrians as well. That fact seems to elude most bikers and
they are operating like they have total impunity when riding. I'd love to see
cops out ticketing bikers for blowing through cross walks with pedestrians
present, I'd love to see big fines for running red lights; lord knows our city
needs the revenue.

~~~
mohn
As a cyclist yourself, I'm sure you're familiar with intersections where the
sensors controlling the lights do not sense bikes. I think the best way
forward is for more states to adopt Idaho's policy: cyclists can treat stop
signs like yield signs, and treat red lights like stop signs. [1]

If I'm riding toward a stop sign at a clearly deserted intersection, I would
very much like to roll through at 10~15 MPH without risking a ticket. If I'm
stopped at a red light and there are no cars making use of the green, I'd
rather not dismount, walk over to press a pedestrian crossing button, walk
back into the road, and wait. Or stay in the road, wait, and hope that I'll
get a green light from a timer instead of a sensor.

It's possible to implement these changes and still be safe on a bike (it has
worked for nearly 30 years in Idaho). I think we agree that flagrant
violations, especially those that put pedestrians at risk, deserve fines.

[1]
[https://legislature.idaho.gov/statutesrules/idstat/Title49/T...](https://legislature.idaho.gov/statutesrules/idstat/Title49/T49CH7/SECT49-720/)

~~~
maccard
> If I'm riding toward a stop sign at a clearly deserted intersection, I would
> very much like to roll through at 10~15 MPH without risking a ticket

Surely that should apply for cars then int his case. If the intersection is
clearly deserted, cars should be able to clear the junction too.

~~~
mohn
I agree, and judging from the many rolling stops they undertake, so do
drivers. When any vehicle has to come to a complete stop for absolutely
nothing, they're just putting wear on their brakes and wasting energy. I'm
happy to see 4-way stops (which people are terrible at) being replaced by more
roundabouts. A roundabout features the desired intersection rules without
having to wait for the state to enact Idaho-style bike laws.

As a cyclist, I'm in a very good position to assess how empty an intersection
is: no windows isolating me in a sound bubble; low speed, so not much wind
noise in my ears or tire noise on the ground; no A pillars obscuring my vision
ahead; and my eyes are usually about as high off the ground as those of an SUV
driver.

Motorists will tend to be in a worse position for assessing the emptiness of
an intersection, and their vehicle is much more dangerous, so the onus to slow
down is greater, but coming to a complete stop is often unnecessary. Slowing
down to make sure there really is nothing there is sensible.

If I were on a recumbent bicycle, or in a little sports car, I'd have to be
more cautious when approaching an intersection because my eyes are lower, and
farther back from the front of the vehicle. (I hate riding recumbents in the
city, but they're pretty awesome on long distance rides).

~~~
kazinator
> _As a cyclist, I 'm in a very good position to assess how empty an
> intersection is: no windows isolating me in a sound bubble; low speed_

Also: your head is closer to the front of your vehicle and thus to the
intersection.

You can assess the situation long before any part of you or your bicycle
enters the intersection.

~~~
tomsthumb
You can also hear.

------
mosselman
Being from the Netherlands I am not at all surprised by this. It is very well
known here that bikes get you places quicker than cars do. Especially within
cities you can go to the city center without having to worry about finding a
parking spot and paying a huge amount of money when you do.

I have lived in New York and have driven a car there and based on that
experience I wouldn't really find driving a bike there problematic. I have
also lived in Brussels (Belgium) and used citi bikes there and was generally
happy about the experience, even though the Belgian roads are a lot more
dangerous due to the fact that Belgians don't have the slightest clue about
anything that has to do with driving or traffic: they can't drive cars, they
can't plan roads properly, they can't maintain them, etc. New York is grid
based so traffic situations are easier to oversee.

------
xyzelement
I am a zealous citibike convert here in NYC and I'll take one over a taxi any
day but I think there's a systematic error in these numbers.

I assume the taxi times are pickup to drop-off (ie encompasses the entire
trip) while bike are station to station so there is walking time that's not
accounted for on either end of the bike trip. There are times where the
nearest station doesn't have bikes or free docks so the walk may be non trivia
and add up to more than the 5 minutes median difference for cross town.

On the other hand sometimes it takes a while to catch a cab and that's not
included in the data either so perhaps it averages out.

The author is right, bikes are great for reducing variability (on the bike you
can get around most obstruction, even if it means walking the bike on a
sidewalk for a quarter of a block while the taxi gets stuck)

The one advice I disagree with is taking the bike when the President is in
town. Trump was here last week for the UN and with all the street closures,
detours and crazed drivers, biking was much more dangerous than usual.

------
staticelf
I'm from Sweden and have been biking in NYC as a tourist. I must say, it is
one of the most scariest places I have biked in my life.

Huge cars, almost no biking lanes, a lot of people and other traffic. I admit
I was also a bit drunk but still, in Stockholm we have biking lanes almost
everywhere and you feel a lot safer. Also there is a lot more people that use
the bike when you give them a lane to bike on.

Please, create more biking lanes. It's better for the cars, it is better for
pedestrians, it's better for the environment and public health.

~~~
anthonybsd
> Huge cars, almost no biking lanes, a lot of people and other traffic.

When were you in NYC? We have more bike lanes than Stockholm these days. :)

Proof:

[http://www.amny.com/transit/new-york-city-to-
reach-1-000-mil...](http://www.amny.com/transit/new-york-city-to-
reach-1-000-miles-of-bike-lanes-on-tuesday-1.10873995) vs
[http://www.fourteenislands.com/bicycle-
paths/](http://www.fourteenislands.com/bicycle-paths/)

~~~
mikk14
Looking just at the installed capacity isn't a great way, if you do not
control for overall area. Better to compare the relative space dedicated to
cars, trains and bikes.

Couldn't find data for Stockholm, but here is a NY-Copenhagen comparison:
black lines are the relative NYC allocation spaces, orange bars is Copenhagen.
Relatively speaking, Copenhagen has much more biking space:
[https://whatthestreet.moovellab.com/newyork/results?bike=0.1...](https://whatthestreet.moovellab.com/newyork/results?bike=0.16&rail=0.12&car=0.72)

~~~
anthonybsd
Copenhagen is #1 on the list of bike-friendly cities. Of course it's going to
outpace NYC.

~~~
mikk14
Sure, but you're making my point against your original one. Copenhagen has a
bit more than 400km of bike lanes [0], which is less than a fourth of what you
reported NYC has. Which was my point: NYC should have much much more than
1,000 miles of bike lanes to be even comparable to Stockholm or Copenhagen.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_in_Copenhagen#Infrastr...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_in_Copenhagen#Infrastructure)

~~~
anthonybsd
I don't know about that. NYC has Staten Island and huge parts of Queens which
are effectively a rural village, whereas Copenhagen as well as most of Europe
is highly urban. If you mapped population density to bike lane coverage, NYC
would come out pretty favorably.

------
dokein
I would love to bike, but the major issue is that every single person I know
who's biked for more than 1 year has gotten into some type of accident (around
10 people), whether car, car door, or poorly maintained road. These are all
30s and work-at-the-office types so maybe they're not the most coordinated,
but they are also not doing stupid shit.

~~~
T-hawk
Counter-anecdote here. I've biked to work on and off for a total of about 5
years worth over my career, at distances of about two miles each way, in a
dense city. I've never had any accident with a car. My one collision ever was
with a pedestrian who started into his crosswalk against his light (I had
green), thinking he could cross ahead of me but I was already leaning to go
ahead of him; we both fell over but no injuries or damage.

It's really not that hard to bike safely. Most accidents involve the cyclist
putting themselves in a vulnerable position somehow. You can't get right-
hooked by a car if you don't put yourself on its right side. Keep alert with
your head up, not looking down at your phone or cycling computer or pedaling
cadence. Watch all the traffic around you. You read drivers' minds when
they're going to turn without signaling. Look an entire block ahead of you for
any parked car showing signs of activity and potential dooring. Forget about
trying to assert your right-of-way and ignore trying to make speed and time
records; those don't matter; slow down and look everywhere at every
questionable intersection or turn or when in a dooring zone. Keep alert and
read your entire environment, and you can go years without any cycling
accident. I've done it.

~~~
bo1024
> It's really not that hard to bike safely.

I have to disagree. Depending on the infrastructure and drivers you face,
staying uninjured as a city cyclist is as much luck as skill.

In many places, you can do everything mentioned and still get in accidents, or
the things you mention are impossible.

------
nashashmi
I cannot help but witness the effects of traffic calming:

> a taxi trip in 2017 took 17% longer than the same trip in 2009.

> The same regression applied to Citi Bikes shows no such slowdown over time,
> in fact Citi Bikes got slightly faster.

Obviously when you dedicate more street space from cars towards bikes, bikes
get faster and cars get slower. The article goes to mention this, but also
downplays it.

What the article seems to ignore on a major scale is the effect of traffic
calming, or traffic impeding. By civilizing traffic to the appropriate rules
and procedures via hardscapes, you make vehicle travel more unbearable and a
test of patience. If the intentions behind doing this weren't derived from
anti-car sentiments, I could respect this move. But Janet Sadik-Khan is a
bicycling enthusiast and after her appointment, car travel became really bad.

~~~
dionidium
_If the intentions behind doing this weren 't derived from anti-car
sentiments_

New York City isn't nearly anti-car enough! It's the only place in the U.S.
that has any chance of reclaiming its streets for pedestrians and it should
absolutely do so. Those who like to drive can choose _literally any other U.S.
city_ and, without exception, it'll cater to that preference.

But New York City should be implementing all kinds of car-hostile policies,
including an all-out ban on private vehicles in some parts of Manhattan.

------
astannard
I have been comparing biking and driving to work in Derby (UK) for my 7 mile
commute. Biking can be quicker for me depending on traffic. I have just
ordered an ebike that should shift the odds more in favour of this bike.

I always feel better having commuted on bike though

~~~
verelo
I wish you luck with the ebike, but personally i feel like they're
problematic.

It could just be our roads here though; the issue I find is that they're too
fast for bike lanes [risk to cyclists], but too slow for the road [cars
frequently pass them at higher speeds and very close-by]. It seems like
everyone is frustrated and the ebikers are just being pushed around by
everyone.

~~~
detaro
What kind of e-bikes do people have in Canada? Electric-assist types, or ones
with a throttle?

In Europe the assist-type is way more common, limited to 25 km/h and at least
in Germany the stereotypical user is an elder person that now suddenly can go
a bit faster and go comfortably up hills.

~~~
verelo
I've seen both, the Electric-assist seem less common [or maybe just harder to
identify?]. The ones that I see as not really fitting in are the larger ones
that look kind of like an electric Vespa.

~~~
yardie
That's not a bike but an electric scooter. They shouldn't be on bike paths nor
pedestrian sidewalks. They have more in common with a motor bike or dirt bike
than they do with a bicycle.

EA bikes just can really only be identified by their battery packs. The motor
can be embedded in the wheel hub or in the pedal crank.

------
ghaff
Or... walk? For a lot of trips in central Manhattan, walking ten or twenty
uptown blocks or cross-town for a few blocks is often the easiest way to get
from point A to B. Personally, I don't really bike but I'm not sure the last
time I felt I needed to take a cab in NYC.

------
ccho
As a daily commuter in NYC, often on Citibike, one of the most concerning
discoveries has been the ability (if you are willing to pedal hard) to
consistently beat out ambulances over stretches of 15 blocks -- specifically
without running red lights on the bike whereas the ambulance is going through
them -- due to the slow speed in which traffic clears a path for them. I
really wish the streets were not so congested with vehicular traffic to
prevent emergency vehicles from getting to their destinations.

------
marak830
Do people use bikes to get anywhere faster? I would use one to save on
emissions and/or get some much needed exercis

edit: so many replies!

I guess I stand corrected, although the more I think about it, the less I'm
surprised. I live in Japan, obviously known for its public transport.
Interesting to note though once I travel abroad, thanks for the replies
everyone :-)

~~~
nether
In Seattle, many trips of 3-6 miles are fastest by bike. Faster than transit
or car even without including parking time. There are quite a few dedicated
bike paths that make it smooth sailing for most of the trip.

~~~
delecti
Unfortunately Seattle is also not an especially flat city. It makes it hard to
get started.

~~~
pjmlp
If it helps as motivation, it is quite common to cycle on Swiss cities, and
the Alps aren't properly flat.

A light bike with a good set of gears helps a lot.

~~~
mmirate
Novice American cyclist here: what makes a set of gears "good" for usage in
Swiss cities?

~~~
pjmlp
For example 3 gears on front and 6 behind, allowing for a relatively good
combination of cycling effort (18 levels), which permits not being wasting too
much energy when going upwards.

------
francisofascii
IMHO, for the most ideal city experience, transit options should be
prioritized in this order: 1) pedestrians, 2) buses, 3) bikes, 4) cars. Biking
being faster than motoring is excellent news towards this ideal.

~~~
revelation
You got 2 and 3 switched up. It's very simple:

[https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C5j6rPlU4AEizP6.jpg:large](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C5j6rPlU4AEizP6.jpg:large)

~~~
francisofascii
My reasoning was a bus can transport many more people than one bike, but sure,
I am agreeable to switching 2 and 3.

~~~
T-hawk
It's not just the quantity; it's the overall efficiency, of quantity compared
to the cost of infrastructure and operations. Buses hold more but cost a lot
more to build and drive, including stations and maintenance facilities, and
externalities like emissions and gridlock. Bike infrastructure is cheap and
operations are free to a city.

------
Tepix
Are electric scooters and other small electric vehicles such as balancing
boards or the Qingbu pocket scooter (a ripoff of the Walkcar?) legal in the
US? They seem to be getting cheap now (saw the Xiaomi M365 for less than
$330). Unfortunately in Germany you may not yet use them on public roads and
sidewalks.

I can see them having an advantage over bikes (and cars) because you can just
fold them up and carry them with you into a cab, the subway, your office or
your home.

------
prohor
Rally nice analysis. It is a pity that open access to data like this is still
exception, not a rule. I wish to have such data for my city.

------
mrich
I'm in Shanghai at the moment and it's definitely the same here, especially
during peak hours. Lots of bikes for rent here too, you can see them on many
sidewalks, not unusual to see a few hundred in a row. Students and office
workers alike are using them. Ofo and Mobike are the big players here, they
are also expanding to other continents now :)

------
CodeSheikh
NYC is not a bike friendly city at all (some parts of certain boroughs might
be). Biking in NYC is also a quick ticket to ER room. I have already eye
witnessed multiple altercations and accidents of bicyclists in this city.
Scary.

------
anonu
From the article:

> The same regression applied to Citi Bikes shows no such slowdown over time,
> in fact Citi Bikes got slightly faster.

I suspect this is mainly due to better bikes. I've been a yearly subscriber to
Citibike since the very beginning - and I can attest that the quality of the
system and the bikes has improved tremendously since inception. Quality of the
bikes is judged in part by their durability and sturdiness of individual items
- but also the gearing. The newest bikes have the NuVinci continuous variable
gear system - which is amazing to use but also allows you to get into a lot
higher gear than the original bikes.

------
bob_theslob646
What is the life expectancy of getting in a taxi and getting to your
destination vs getting on a bike? Probability of surviving if you get hit by a
car: being in both? The other thing this article failed to mention is that NYC
implemented slower speeds for cars. Overall this is true, but safety should be
a factor and bikers nor drivers obey laws. Make the fines super expensive and
use that money to educate people about the rules of the road. Drives me
bonkers that they collect so much money in tickets from drivers but do not
educate the people about it because they want the revenue haha. So stupid.

------
JohnnyConatus
When you're trying to get to the morgue? I'm sympathetic to cyclists - I am
one myself - but the average CitiBike rider rides like an 8 year old who just
got their first bike.

~~~
xapata
Many people predicted citibikes would be dangerous, but they were surprisingly
accident-free for quite some time. You might have the impression that they're
badly ridden, but the data suggests they're actually safe.

There might be a bit of memory tricks going on -- you remember the things that
stand out, but not the boring riders stopping at the light.

------
L_Rahman
In virtually every crosstown route during working hours in lower Manhattan.
It's not even close, Citi Bikes are 1.5x - 2.5x faster than a cab.

------
cloudwizard
If you are commuting on Caltrain in SF, it is way easier to take the
citibikes. Only a relatively short distance in SOMA and way faster. When I
went south to the tech campuses, I brought my own bike on the train.

There are a few bikers that cause problems. I was driving in Palo Alto
yesterday and a cyclist insisted on using the car lane instead of a perfectly
good bike lane.

------
jonandersense
Been biking in both Los Angeles & New York as my commute. In LA driving took
1-2h while biking took 1h. In my experience it's been faster for my commute,
however there's still many days where there are no bikes where I live (UWS).

I can highly recommend trying out the Citi bike if you live in New York, it's
so cheap and many of the companies pays for it.

------
hamburglar1
As a NYer it's pretty clear that going cross town on a bike or skate board
will be faster than a car, especially during rush hour. Moving through tight
areas like Soho and Greenwich village, I would say that a skateboard is
probably the fastest. I still can't tell if a skate board is safer than a
bike. Absolutely more fun though

------
galkk
It might work in NY, worked well for me in central London, but I'd like to see
how the people will prefer that in cities that are built on the hills, like
San Francisco or Seattle.

------
jlebrech
what citi bikes need is a reward system to get riders to transfer bikes from
plenty to empty areas.

[edit] i meant to use Citi bike as a generic term.

~~~
jwong_
They do have this. It's called "bike angels", and it lets you earn points
based on how empty or full a station is. They also have bonuses on special
holidays or rainy days.

~~~
michaelbuckbee
Sounded interesting, so I looked it up -
[https://bikeangels.citibikenyc.com/](https://bikeangels.citibikenyc.com/) \-
seems like a well designed incentive system.

------
carlhjerpe
What they didn't take into account is that riding a bike in a crowded city is
a task for suicidal people only!

------
jdanp
I live in the East Village and am convinced that cyclists in New York City
have no regard for human life. The NYPD seems to be cracking down on their
lawless behavior, but I think a push away from cycling and towards ride-
sharing (a la Via) is the solution for our transit issue.

With our broken subway system and high volume of cabs, ubers, etc; it is clear
that New York is a driving city - but not a parking city.

~~~
the_gastropod
Most NYC residents don't own cars. I'm not sure I'm buying your "New York is a
driving city" assessment.

New York is a dense city. Bicycles: 1\. Don't pollute the air the that 8
million people breathe. 2\. Take up a fraction of the space of a car. 3\. Are
faster than cars for most trips people make.

Don't toss out the entire idea of a bicycle because a few cyclist ride like
idiots. Drivers sometimes behave this way, too. And when they do, lives often
end.

~~~
staticelf
NYC don't even have a train from the airport to the city. Of course it is a
driving city.

~~~
the_gastropod
Two of the three major airports in the metropolitan area (EWR and JFK) have
trains to the city. And LGA has buses.

------
skatestuff
I ride a bike in NYC. If you accept being sweaty in the summer and risk
getting hit in certain areas, then you'll have a blast riding. Otherwise it's
a burden. In my opinion, biking is one of the fastest forms of transportation
when traveling <40 blocks. Also, Citi Bikes are lunky. I hate riding them.

