
Store owner installs surveillance cameras to spy on police - fraqed
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-57613501-71/store-owner-installs-surveillance-cameras-to-spy-on-police
======
RougeFemme
Here's the original Miami-Dade article, which was printed the day before the
one referenced earlier in the thread:

[http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/11/21/v-fullstory/3769823/in...](http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/11/21/v-fullstory/3769823/in-
miami-gardens-store-video-catches.html)

In the original article, the owner explains what he originally _thought_ he
was agreeing to - and why:

"About three years ago, Saleh said police asked him to participate in what
they called a “zero-tolerance” program to reduce crime. He gladly signed up,
not realizing at the time how much it would impact his business and customers.
Under the program, Miami Gardens police are given broad powers to stop and
arrest people who appear to be loitering or trespassing at the participating
business.

The idea behind the program is based on the “broken window theory,’’ a concept
that has been employed by police around the country. The theory holds that a
community that rids itself of petty crime, such as shoplifting, vandalism and
trespassing, can eradicate more serious crime because criminals won’t have
anywhere to hide."

This is also the justification for NYC's "stop and frisk" program which has
been in the news so much lately. For the record, I'm not a fan.

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moocowduckquack
How do these police keep their jobs? I understand that there is corruption and
the thin blue line nonsense, but 62 arrests of the same employee for
alledgedly trespassing _in his place of work_ is just insane. Even if you were
a total bastard you would get rid of anyone you were responsible for who was
pulling that kind of crap, as long as you had even the slightest instinct for
self-preservation.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Unions.

EDIT: If you want to downvote, please prove me wrong. I'm happy to provide
citations where law enforcement is responsible for criminal conduct, up to and
including theft and shooting people's dogs for no reason, and where they're
defended by their unions.

~~~
moocowduckquack
reply to the edit - the existence of collective legal representation via a
union does not by itself explain why these people feel they can act with
impunity. I agree that having access to good lawyers does help a lot in
employment cases, however I would say that either the police union is almost
superhumanly competent in its legal defense of its members, or it is not the
primary reason for police being allowed to behave like this.

~~~
toomuchtodo
My argument is you believe you can act with impunity if you don't believe
there will be any repercussions for your actions. So if it isn't police/LEO
unions protecting officers from dismissal due to gross misconduct, who is it?

~~~
moocowduckquack
Other than union lawyers, the other folk involved could be other officers,
heads of department, members of internal review boards, judges, magistrates,
lab workers, district attorneys, politicians, etc. I agree that lawyers can
help, but the lawyers are a mere formality if the process is corrupt in the
first place. Unions are not normally some kind of magic shield, they are
collective bargaining and pooled legal fees and have not provided the same
level of protection that the police enjoy, in the other areas in which they
exist.

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Sunlis
Some of the mentioned videos are available in this Miami Herald article:
[http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/11/21/v-fullstory/3769823/in...](http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/11/21/v-fullstory/3769823/in-
miami-gardens-store-video-catches.html)

------
utahexpat
In Moab UT and other cities in UT, after speaking with many bartenders, you'll
find out that indoor cameras are to protect employees from harassment by
alcohol police. Including falsifying reports, and blackmail.

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joering2
Eventually enough cars will be equipped with multi-ways dashcams and it will
be a matter of time when someone writes an app to recognize cop cars and pin
them on the map, 24/7/365\. Just for our own safety...

~~~
cinquemb
Cars? Let's go deeper: How about clothing with built in cameras (and possibly
other sensors) that look up every face one comes across on the internet
(facebook/google seem like good data sets to start) to match with an identity
and then for actions deemed unseemingly by the individual, they can use their
identity and find relatives/friends/children and send a message with the clip
and a caption "Here's how your friend/dad/daughter, is conducting themselves
admirably today, you should be proud of them."

------
alextingle
This has never been more relevant:
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO8EpfyCG2Y](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO8EpfyCG2Y)

~~~
rquantz
I believe that "looking at me in a funny way" constitutes probable cause in
NYC.

~~~
pstuart
I've been stopped by the police for turning to look at their car as they
passed by me. I'm white, clean cut, and middle-aged and was around the block
from where I've lived for over a decade.

My crime? I was walking barefoot down the sidewalk.

------
refurb
I'm a little confused. In order to be arrested for trespassing, doesn't the
owner of the property have to confirm that the person is not allowed on the
property?

There is more behind the scenes going on.

~~~
RougeFemme
In order to be _convicted_ , yes. . .but not in order to be arrested.

~~~
refurb
I still don't understand. How can you be arrested in a public place unless
said owner said you can't be there?

~~~
kenjackson
They can arrest you for murder, and then say it was a mistake. If there is no
disciplinary action against them then they could do it to you everyday.

~~~
ams6110
No they can't. False arrest, which includes arrest without probable cause or a
warrant, is a crime.

Of course you'd need to get the prosecutor to take up the case, which would
probably require the help of a lawyer, which a person taking out the trash at
a convenience store probably can't afford.

Additionally, I think there is more to this story than is being reported,
because it makes no sense on its face.

------
gojomo
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sousveillance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sousveillance)

------
orky56
At some point even the officers need to be held accountable for their actions.
There has to be better way to get feedback from their departments rather than
creating a media firestorm when one of these stories/videos go viral.

~~~
pavel_lishin
> _At some point even the officers need to be held accountable for their
> actions._

At some point? At every point. And I don't understand the use of "even".

We are all responsible for our actions.

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Zigurd
It will be interesting to see how long social sharing of face recognition data
is kept away from the general public. Then this store owner could know in
advance of any interaction if the cop outside is a good guy or not.

------
contingencies
Within two weeks of arriving in the US I had been arrested and hauled out of a
bar by two police officers, thrown over a car, and had my wallet and pockets
rifled through. My crime? Talking to a cop's girlfriend.

Of course, we won't get in to equally informative stories of police in China,
India, Thailand or the United Kingdom.

Having collected a fair range of experience across the world, I think I've now
discovered where my misunderstanding originally arose: I had the wrong idea
about what "police" meant. I see now that it's clearly nothing more than an
internationally popular short form for "useless and corrupt thug-cum-
bureaucrat".

------
imahboob
with chips like these - who needs criminals

------
consonants
Cop killers are heros.

~~~
refurb
Classy. Very classy.

