
Amazon drops gendered categories for toys - DiabloD3
http://kottke.org/15/05/amazon-drops-gendered-categories-for-toys
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cristianpascu
There is significant scientific evidence for differences between men and
women, both psychologically and physiologically. For one, if I may, mental
illness strikes differently in men and women. In other news, it seems that
women have been overmadicated for a long time because medical studies have
ignored differences, for different reasons, one being the fear of sexism
accusations.

And while it's silly to be offered only pink dolls, I do think that little
girls and little boys have different preferences which are not instilled by
their parents, but rather emerge from their own psychology. I find it very
hard to believe that all of our passions and preferences have a source in
somebody telling us that we should be this or that way. Like me starting to
play guitar, mathematics, physics or now being a programmer and entrepreneur.
It's things I just happened to like to do. There's been little encourgements.

I think there's a danger in fighting an wheel mill by enforcing a culture of
uniformity because "girls need to learn about science too". I hate it when the
world is accused of pushing pink on girls while everyday, on the streets,
girls and women dress nicely in hundreds of colours and variations while men
just wear t-shirts. I think that girls and women can manage this, and they're
not as easilly to manipulate as some might think.

~~~
xvedejas
Even if men and women are different, I'm not certain that prescribed gender
categories for toys is really aiding that anyway. Isn't it more convenient for
both genders to not miss or avoid a toy because someone has labeled it as not
belonging to their gender?

~~~
PopeOfNope
On the other hand, most consumers buy toys for children based on gender. How
difficult does Amazon want to make it to find a toy for your niece or nephew?
Not being able to filter for one or the other is an inconvenience. Now, if
they have data that suggests nobody used those categories, that's one thing,
but removing it for political reasons is another.

~~~
mc32
The other filter people use a lot when searching for toys is age. They could
remove the ages filter too, and expose you to all toys without any
distinction. Just a toy firehose. I don't think the gender filter is helpful,
but maybe it is to some people. But then it's Amazon's property, so I don't
care about it, so long as they don't remove the gender filter for adult
clothing.

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rverghes
I wonder if Amazon actually A/B tested this, or just dropped it because of
pressure from activists. If they did A/B test it, and found it increased sales
or search efficiency, they should tout the finding.

But part of me wonders if they didn't just end up making their website worse
for people actually trying to search for a present.

~~~
the_mitsuhiko
Even for searching for your own kids gender categories are useful thing. Not
everybody subscribes to the idea of ungendered toys and cloths.

~~~
dragonwriter
> Even for searching for your own kids gender categories are useful thing.

I dunno, when I've searched for gifts for children I know (and, really, the
same thing goes for adults), I've usually had _some_ idea of what I was
looking for which was more useful than a gender category.

~~~
the_mitsuhiko
When you search for baby toys you often have no idea what to look for. Gender
categories are useful for that.

~~~
PopeOfNope
You two are talking past each other. The way it was before, you both could do
what you wanted: either use the gender filter or not use the gender filter.
Now there's no choice.

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taurath
Its still amazing how much we sort boys and girls based on gender and not
interests.

~~~
pauleastlund
Personally I'm of a like mind and I consider this progress. I have a bunch of
(smart, curious) daughters and I feel a real struggle against gender role
orthodoxy when I'm trying to nurture their interests in legos and science and
Tolkien and their friends are into American Girl dolls and Disney princesses.

With that said, you can see why retailers would be slow to drop gender
categorization. For people who aren't particularly progressive on this issue,
Amazon just made shopping harder. For the average adult shopping for kids'
toys, I bet the single most valuable bit of information to predicting their
purchase is the gender of the recipient.

~~~
xupybd
Also if you are shopping for someone else's kids. If you don't know the kids
interests it's a lot easier to look for toys of around that age and for the
gender of the child. Sometimes its all the info you have.

~~~
dragonwriter
> Also if you are shopping for someone else's kids. If you don't know the kids
> interests it's a lot easier to look for toys of around that age and for the
> gender of the child.

If you are shopping for someone else's kids, how hard is it to talk
(/text/email/etc.) to the parents about the kids interests?

~~~
kps

      > If you are shopping for someone else's kids, how hard is it to talk
      > (/text/email/etc.) to the parents about the kids interests?
    

Or even talk to the kids about the kids' interests (with written permission
from the parents and social services and in the presence of at least three
independent board-certified chaperons, of course).

~~~
pbhjpbhj
How? There are kids in my child's class at school I've never met; I don't know
their parents and in some cases there are never occasions where we share
geographical location (their kids are picked up by carers). Schools don't give
out the parents information; relaying contact details through children under
about 8yo is impossible.

Then what? Arrange to meet them at their home to talk to their child for 30s
about what they want for their birthday (that's in my price range) - the whole
process is costing more than the present at this point.

Am I right in thinking you're not a parent?

Asking a parent you know for ideas for a party present for a kid is quite
reasonable, asking the child won't help unless it's a child you're close to
and you're spending a considerable sum and I'd warrant know the child's
personality pretty well.

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egwynn
A lot of sites have moved to non-binary gender representations. Some do it
because they see heteronormativity as a close-but-not-quite-close-enough false
dichotomy that leaves too many people out in the cold. I’m not sure if that’s
why Amazon did this, but they certainly wouldn’t be the first ones to do it.

FWIW, I tend to agree with this recent perspective. In the endless debate over
nature-vs-nurture, why should we insist on nurturing this dichotomy? We’re no
worse off for not reenforcing that which marginalizes/disenfranchises so many.
Are we?

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mkr-hn
As someone who liked all kinds of toys as a kid and is largely indifferent to
gender as an adult, this appeals to me.

~~~
xname
How could this appeals to you? If you don't like the gender categories, just
DO NOT USE THEM! Why the hell would you want the categories to be removed?

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blacksmith_tb
It appears that what's actually been dropped is the filters from nav, since
they still have the boys-toys girls-toys categories. This seems like a
reasonable compromise for people want to shop that way, versus just choosing a
kind of toy they think the child they are shopping for would like.

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kristopolous
Can we get some financial theories as to why they did this?

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sergiotapia
So how do I find toys for my son and toys for my daughter on Amazon now?

~~~
mcv
By searching for something they like, rather than merely trusting blindly in
labels and their cultural expectations.

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xname
For narrow minded people here:

\- existence of the gendered categories does not force you to use the gendered
categories

\- dropping the gender categories does prohibit others to use the gender
categories

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mahouse
Towards a more robotic future.

~~~
mkr-hn
I must be misunderstanding you, because it looks like you're saying refusing
to conform to gender roles makes us more robotic. Which would be ridiculous,
so you probably don't mean that.

~~~
mahouse
You are understanding me well. I think gender roles are a very important part
of what makes us human. (Or animalic.)

~~~
pauleastlund
I get what you're saying, but there is a vast gulf between:

\- gender is not just a social construct, men and women in aggregate don't
have the exact same strengths, and that diversity is beautiful rather than
something we need to suppress

and

\- boys should play football and girls should play with dolls and wear frilly
dresses

I think people who agree with the former, but not the latter, should overall
feel good about Amazon not gratuitously dividing all sorts of categories of
toys into "his" and "hers."

~~~
baddox
> should

Amazons categorization probably does not imply a normative belief. I doubt
Amazon cares if you order an Iron Man toy for a female.

~~~
chc
I can't see how you'd interpret "Boys' Toys" and "Girls' Toys" in a non-
normative way (unless we're talking about the set of toys that are actually in
the possession of those groups right now, which is plainly not the case here).
Surely the meaning is something like "Toys that it is normal for boys to play
with."

~~~
baddox
Sorry, I meant "normative" in the philosophical sense, as in normative ethics.

My non-normative interpretation is "toys marketed to and widely considered to
be intended primarily for boys" and "toys marketed to and widely considered to
be intended primarily for girls."

