
IBM Stops Server Side Swift Framework Development - samcat116
https://forums.swift.org/t/december-12th-2019/31735
======
veidr
Two guys that IBM was paying to work on server-side Swift are stepping down
from the server working group (presumably because IBM decided not to pay them
to do that anymore).

I think these guys were best known for Kitura, the (previously) IBM-backed web
app framework.

I don't do web apps in Swift "for realz" (I use TypeScript and tools like
Angular and Koa.js for that kind of thing), but I do use Swift on Linux and
have built some toy ones using both Kitura and Vapor.

My impression is that Vapor gained a lot more traction than Kitura did, so in
some ways this might just be "the market choosing" and Kitura heading for the
sunset.

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tannernelson
While it's sad to see IBM go, Vapor and the Swift Server working group are
alive and more active than ever

[https://github.com/vapor/vapor/](https://github.com/vapor/vapor/)
[https://swift.org/server/](https://swift.org/server/)

Amazon has also created a Swift web framework: [https://github.com/amzn/smoke-
framework](https://github.com/amzn/smoke-framework)

~~~
samcat116
I’m excited for Vapor 4! Also love all the Vapor Red stuff.

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mythz
Pretty clear signal that there's low appetite for full stack development in
Swift.

What are other promising future "end-to-end" (i.e. Web / Server / Mobile)
development platforms are there? IMO these are the main contenders:

    
    
        - JS / node.js / React Native (Android/iOS) (+ other transpile 2 JS langs, e.g. TypeScript, Clojure, Scala, OCaml, etc)
        - Kotlin to JavaScript / JVM / Android / Kotlin Native (iOS)
        - C# Blazor / ASP .NET Core / Xamarin (Android/iOS)
        - Dart JS / Dart VM / Flutter (Android/iOS)
    

Rust/Go/C++ could get some mentions, but I don't think they have enough
community or commercial backing to become a popular mainstream option.

~~~
tessting
Is Kotlin Native any good?

~~~
mrits
I just started looking into and according to a few of my sources it isn't
ready for primetime due to crashing issues and other problems with linux
kernel versions

------
ogre_codes
Swift on the server is very new and has very small market share. At one time
there were 3+ Swift frameworks competing for mindspace against piles of well
established frameworks in other languages. That one framework is falling out
of the mix isn't a big surprise.

------
jrs95
Apple really ought to invest more in server side Swift directly themselves. I
feel like it has a lot of potential, and what the community has done with
limited resources is impressive, but it's not really going to be able to gain
substantial traction without a lot more weight behind it imo

~~~
tannernelson
These things take time. A lot of people at Apple are heavily invested in Swift
on the server, including the Swift core team:
[https://swift.org/server/](https://swift.org/server/)

Swift itself still needs time to mature, too. Things like the memory model,
async/await, generics, etc. The future is bright, it will just require some
patience to get there.

~~~
verttii
There seems to be very little promotional stuff about the runtime for server-
side. What's the story with that for Swift?

I don't think many people are going to start learning Swift just to build
servers with it unless the platform/runtime provides something special.
Otherwise it'll stay isolated just to the current iOS devs.

------
ofrzeta
It's not a big surprise. A language is not only the language but also the
ecosystem such as standard libs. Now when you have a language like Swift where
half of the standard lib is not available on the dominant server platform
(Linux) not many people are going to use it. Which is kind of sad because I
like(d) Swift. Too bad no one was willing to untie the language from the Apple
frameworks but obviously there was no party with enough resources to re-
implement all of the ecosystem in a cross-platform manner.

------
ksec
I am wondering what this means in broader terms, IBM no longer have their
weight behind Swift? ( Focusing more on Java which would make more sense from
IBM perspective )

Or is this just not working on Web Framework ?

~~~
unpluggedcord
Is it fair to say IBM threw their weight behind Swift?

~~~
saagarjha
They were an early adopter and for a while the only other large company
putting significant effort into it.

------
Tainnor
I think this is a very bad sign. Not necessarily because of Kitura (as others
have mentioned, Vapor is more popular and quite active), but because IBM was
the only major company that was at least somewhat invested in improving the
server-side Swift ecosystem. Clearly, apple can't be bothered to fix some of
the more serious issues with Swift on Linux.

Just look at the kinds of discussions that e.g. Ian Partridge has contributed
to:
[https://forums.swift.org/u/ianpartridge/summary](https://forums.swift.org/u/ianpartridge/summary)

It includes substantial work on Docker images, logging, crash debugging, etc.

Maybe google will become a bit more invested in the Swift on Linux side of
things, but so far I haven't really seen them invest in the ecosystem (besides
pushing differentiable programming, which is cool, but it's mostly satisfying
a niche requirement).

------
actionowl
FWIW I’d really like to see Swift available in more platforms. At the moment
only MacOS and Ubuntu seem to be supported (*BSD and perhaps Windows would be
very welcome)

~~~
tachoknight
Swift is also available on Fedora/RedHat/Centos 8; simply type “dnf install
swift-lang”

* Disclaimer: I’m the packager for swift on those platforms.

~~~
actionowl
Nice! That was NOT the case when I last tried it, and I prefer RHEL-based
distros when not using BSD. Thanks!

------
wlesieutre
Curious what this means for Kitura. Last I checked, the three major serverside
Swift frameworks were Kitura, Vapor, and Perfect.

Perfect doesn’t look like it’s under active development, and if this means
Kitura stops being maintained, it’s down to just Vapor as an active project.

~~~
todotask
I have tried three web frameworks, indeed, Perfect activities is less active
although they came up some interesting UI tools for devs but CLI is always
preferred.

I do find Golang has fill microservice space where Kitura couldn’t gain
traction.

------
The_rationalist
What are the pros and cons of swift vs Kotlin for the server?

~~~
favorited
They're very different languages under the hood. Kotlin's biggest strength is
also it biggest weakness relative to Swift– it's all built on the JVM. It gets
great integration with the mature Java ecosystem, but it has Java's downsides
as well.

On the server, the lack of JIT warmup & a smaller overall heap size could be
differentiators for Swift, depending on the context.

------
jswny
Does anyone know why IBM initially decided to throw some weight behind Swift?

~~~
amdelamar
Could be from their partnership that started 2014.
[https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2014/07/15Apple-and-IBM-
Forge...](https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2014/07/15Apple-and-IBM-Forge-Global-
Partnership-to-Transform-Enterprise-Mobility/)

------
thrower123
Outside of iOS, is there really any traction for Swift development? It
certainly feels like it is settling into an also-ran position. And really,
mobile apps are turning out to be a dead-end, and people don't seem to be
actually investing in native clients anymore, they just slap their website in
a browser control.

~~~
wwright
As an Apple fan and a programming language nerd, I have basically no interest
in ever using the language. I spend a lot of time in C++, Haskell, Rust, and
Kubernetes, but Swift just feels pointlessly complicated to me. (C++ I think
is also pointlessly complicated, but the rest at least have a point ;-)

~~~
zepto
Swift is no more complicated than Haskell or Rust.

~~~
verttii
But Swift has had a more specific target platform, where it wouldn't make
sense to produce excessively high level generic abstractions.

Whereas a language like Haskell is happy to try some absurdly abstract
concepts in the interest of promoting computer science.

