
“Common view” that Japanese are typically collectivists is not supported by data - DyslexicAtheist
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/ajsp.12334?campaign=wolearlyview&
======
tokyodude
I'm curious by what metric? One reason I choose to live in Japan is the
respect for others. Drop your wallet you're more likely to get it back and
with all cash that was in it. People generally don't party loud in their
apartments but in support of that it's easy to find a bar or restaurant you
can rent for the night for your party and places than can seat parties of 8 to
20 people without notice are abundant (izakaya). Places to practice
instruments are also easy to find. Cleaning up after a picnic or at the beach
seems better than most other places.

Whether or not that's evidence of collectivism I have no idea.

~~~
Reason077
_”One reason I choose to live in Japan is the respect for others.”_

Interesting. For me this is one of the worst things about living in the UK.

It’s quite normal for many people to go the park or the beach and just leave
all their litter on the ground when they’re done. Or to tip out all the litter
from their car into the street when they’re done eating a McDonalds meal.
Things that would be totally unacceptable in Japan or even many other European
countries!

In the UK I don’t think it’s lack of respect for _others_ that is the real
problem, however. People are generally polite to each other, willing to help
people out and form orderly queues. It’s more a lack of respect for the
environment around them (picking up litter is someone else’s job) or lack of
awareness of how their actions affect others (I had no idea that revving my
loud ass motorbike on a residential street at 1AM was annoying people)...

Sometimes I wish that the UK was more like Japan!

~~~
Ntrails
> I had no idea that revving my loud ass motorbike on a residential street at
> 1AM was annoying people

I was on a train going into London earlier this week and the guy sat behind me
insisted on playing music loudly on his phone speaker. Which doubles the
annoyance of being both terrible music (imo) and terrible distorted sound
quality.

I asked him to turn it down after being annoyed for a bit, which he did for 5
minutes and then took a phone call (speakerphone, obvs) and turned the music
back on.

I guess he knew I wasn't going to keep making a fuss and so didn't give a
shit. It was mildly infuriating - but what are you going to do?

~~~
bovermyer
One possible tactic is to try and strike up a conversation with him. He'll
probably turn off or turn down his music if given an opportunity to talk about
himself (which most people love doing).

~~~
vinceguidry
I think I'd rather deal with the music.

~~~
fahadkhan
That's probably why people think it's okay to listen to music or have
conversations on speakerphone. I'm not saying you are obligated to attempt to
stop antisocial behaviour. You are proving his assumptions that people don't
really mind.

~~~
vinceguidry
It probably is. And personally, I _don 't_ really care. Because I have my
earphones in and I can't hear anything coming from the outside world.

That's not to say that I _can 't_ care about rude behavior or do anything
about it if it starts to persist. I've confronted more than one person who
kept on with bad behaviors, at the coffee shop that I go to.

Usually a politely-worded request is all that's required. I may escalate to a
second politely-worded request. I think that's only been needed once in 13
years of going to the coffee shop. The baristas handle it if it gets more out
of hand.

There is behavior that I particularly don't have a problem with but other
people do. This usually concerns the shared resource of space at the bar. One
guy _really_ needs his space, about half of a bar intended to seat 3. The
coffee shop is his workplace and he needs everything just so. Other people
roll their eyes and just give in, in many cases moving before he gets there.
This, of course, suits him just fine. He seems to calibrate to just enough
disagreeableness to get his way in this particular instance.

I'm just glad I don't have to get involved and can laugh from a distance.

------
wodenokoto
> This common view has persisted for decades despite prior influential reviews
> refuting it (Matsumoto, 1999, 2002; Matsumoto, Kudoh, & Takeuchi, 1996;
> Oyserman, Coon, & Kemmelmeier, 2002; Takano & Osaka, 1997, 1999)

Odd they don't cite sources promoting the common view (Except for Hofstede,
later).

> The common view is problematic because it takes this country-level
> difference and interprets a cultural dimen- sion of the country—for example,
> that American culture is individualistic and that Japanese culture is
> collectivis- tic—and then further applies that culture-level difference to
> individual members of those cultures. American indi- viduals are treated as
> if they are all individualistic and Japanese individuals are treated as if
> they are all collec- tivistic; that is, the common view essentially imposes
> a country-level effect (I/C) onto individual members of those nation
> cultures.

So they are saying that Japanese culture is collectivist, but Japanese
individuals aren't. Makes sense to me. I litter more when in China than when
in Japan.

------
al_ramich
Seems that you need credentials to access the full article.

Based on the abstract it sounds a good read. Japanese phrase “The nail that
sticks out gets hammered down” might need to be changed to “The nail that
sticks out gets to see further”

[https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/07/21/national/scienc...](https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/07/21/national/science-
health/dna-influence-japans-collectivist-society)

------
sonofblah
"At 88 Japan scores as one of the most Long Term Orientation oriented
societies. Japanese see their life as a very short moment in a long history of
mankind."

------
_nalply
I think the real difference is somewhere else. Japanese aren't individualists
neither. Like other Asian people they tend to make a profound distinction
between family and the world outside of the family. In other words, they think
"we" and exclude you if you aren't part of the family.

------
Nokinside
"Common view" is usually very inaccurate.

More principled cultural measures like Hofstede's don't measure individuality
of individuals (sic). They measure relative differences in a group of people
from another in the terms of the culture and values as they are collectively
represented in institutions and behavioral norms.

In Hofstede's cultural dimensions Japanese uncertainty avoidance may be
interpreted and perceived as 'low individuality' because it restricts
expression of expressing ideas and individual behavior. It does not mean that
Japanese are drones without ideas as individuals. They must express new ideas
using different channels when working inside Japanese culture.

Hofstede's ranking for individualism for select countries:

    
    
        US      91
        Japan   46 
        China   20
    

Japan ranks culturally quite high in individualism when compared to other East
Asian nations. Japanese society does not have extended family system which
forms a base of more collectivistic societies such as China and Korea. Where
they really separate from the rest is masculinity, uncertainty avoidance, low
indulgence and power distance. In contrast, Chinese uncertainty avoidance is
very low. Lover than in the US.

\---

Short definitions to avoid confusion from literal interpretation of the terms
(these terms don't mean exactly the same what the common meaning is):

individualism: the degree of interdependence a society maintains among its
members. In Individualist societies people are supposed to look after
themselves and their direct family only. In Collectivist societies people
belong to ‘in groups’ that take care of them in exchange for loyalty.

power distance: the extent to which the less powerful members of institutions
and organizations within a country expect and accept that power is distributed
unequally.

masculinity: indicates that the society will be driven by competition,
achievement and success, with success being defined by the winner / best in
field – a value system that starts in school and continues throughout
organizational life. A Feminine society is one where quality of life is the
sign of success and standing out from the crowd is not admirable (Sweden is
opposite of Japan in this axis).

uncertainty avoidance: the degree to which the members of a society feel
uncomfortable with uncertainty and ambiguity. Strong uncertainty avoidance
means maintaining rigid codes of belief and behaviour, and are intolerant of
unorthodox behaviour and ideas.

indulgence: the extent to which people try to control their desires and
impulses. Culturally less emphasis on leisure time and control the
gratification of their desires.

~~~
Kurtz79
Well, the comparison mentioned in the abstract is between Americans and
Japanese, so Hofstede's rankings seem to agree with the "common view"
mentioned in the paper...

------
throw2016
This kind of stereotyping perpetuates myths in both directions and encourages
the 'fetishization' of others. It creates gross generalizations about things
like individualism, collectivism and shame that are not in sync with reality.

Slut shaming, unemployment, deviant behavior, low status jobs are about shame.
13 reasons why and slew of other media explore slut shaming in modern society.
Hn commentators never fail to remind macdonald and wallmart workers about
their status. Go back just a couple of decades and its even more pronounced.

Any one who has been to school here will know status and class consciousness
is predominant in society. This raises questions about the value and accuracy
of these kind of distinctions.

Differences seem to come more from relative wealth levels that allow better
infrastructure, facilities, less frenzy for survival, leisure, some degree of
independence and opportunities for self improvement. In Palo Alto people wait
for pedestrians while in New York its completely different, you can do some
deep analysis on culture for this or put it down to crowding and heavy traffic
patterns.

------
ggm
I'm not going to say I can absolutely refute this paper but I can say that in
my day job, which is an international not for profit in the Asia Pacific, with
a strong Japanese sub presence I see collectivism and individualism, but I see
a lot more collectivism. I'm told in the domestic equivalent circuit they
fight like cats and dogs, but outside? It's a party line.

I also think there is a strong Confucianism element to things. Collectivism is
a sister to respect for collective and hierarchical authority sometimes.

~~~
smhost
A lot of Western people (especailly a certain brand of Americans) parrot this
line of thought like it's the 19th century when in fact what they're
perceiving is their own inability to understand another culture. The atom bomb
and hollywood has had a stronger influence on contemporary japanese culture
than Confucius, but there's always this constant need to regress to a
differentiated past.

~~~
ggm
I asked my colleagues who come from a range of Asian backgrounds and they tend
to feel there is a resurgence of modern soft Confucianism. Obviously they
could be chosing a trope to get out of the conversation too.

I'm not American. I'm in Australia but working with a body that covers all 56
Asia Pacific economies with some national chapters. The Bhutanese are very
very strong on ancestor and elder respect (for instance)

So you tend to support the papers view?

~~~
smhost
Yeah, I've heard that there is some renewed interest in Confucianism which I
think has to do with the global rise of fascist mythology, but for example
it's still true that young Japanese are quickly losing interest in family
values and traditional notions of responsiblities to society.

~~~
mantas
More like current Japanese economy makes it fucking hard to live out
traditional Japanese family image. Life-long cushy salaryman jobs are sparse.
Yet Japanese women who stick to the traditional image won't take up a dude
working McJob. The only way save face (which is one of top priorities in Japan
if not Asia) is to pretend you have no interest in that at all.

There're quite a few young people living out the traditional Japanese dream
though. Birth rates seem to be coming back up too. Possibly because Tokyo
(where most young people are concentrated, the rest of the country is more or
less dying) is slowly becoming child-friendly. More spacious housing for
affordable (as that can be) prices, more public facilities for children and
child care/schools seem to be getting cheaper.

~~~
mercurysmessage
I don't know why people always focus on the birth rate in Japan. It's pretty
standard to developed nations, and there are nations with a lower birth rate.

~~~
mantas
Their birth rate is now getting back up. It used to be quite a bit worse. On
top of that, average Japanese life expectancy is rather long. Which makes it
skewed towards elders.

And on top of that, they have strict immigration and don't feel like going
Euro way at all. Thus population decline is massive compared to western
europe.

------
hcarvalhoalves
Recent news:

[https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/japan-tokyo-
me...](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/japan-tokyo-medical-
university-sexism-women-exam-scores-shinzo-abe-a8480896.html)

This university was caught penalising women test scores due to a belief they
would "waste" chairs, since women may drop out school with pregnancy.

That's textbook example of collectivism over individual to me, and a pretty
extreme one.

------
cosmic_ape
Can anyone give an example of how the "common view" could be true at culture-
level but not at individual-level?

This editorial spends a page and a half talking about it without a single
example.

~~~
freddie_mercury
The article says it is the ecological fallacy. Google "ecological fallacy
example" and you'll find lots. A simple example: take a group of 3 people. One
has an IQ of 200. The other 2 have an IQ of 50. The average IQ is 100. So the
group is "average IQ" but if you pick a person at random they are likely to be
substantially below average IQ. Examples get substantially more complicated in
reality.

~~~
cosmic_ape
I see, thanks. I think they should have just said distributions are skewed,
and skewed differently, if thats what they mean.

~~~
Baeocystin
Using the term 'ecological fallacy' does exactly that. It is a specific,
formal term. A common subtype is called Simpson's Paradox, and that comes up
frequently as well.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson%27s_paradox](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson%27s_paradox)

------
domsl
I have troubles accessing the full article.

~~~
lumberjack
Sci-hub the title: [http://sci-hub.tw/10.1111/ajsp.12334](http://sci-
hub.tw/10.1111/ajsp.12334)

~~~
domsl
Thank you. The Scihub telegram bot told me he doesn't have it in its database
yet, so it's seems to lag behind.

------
freddie_mercury
Lots of anecdotes without reading the article (which is par for the course in
99% of HN threads). Anyway, here's a quick summary:

* Culture level effects do not necessarily translate to the individual. That is, Japanese culture may be collectivist without any individual being collectivist.

* Other countries are more collectivist than Japan.

* Concepts like "collectivist" and "individualistic" are not binary or mutually exclusive. (People can switch from one to another depending on context or day of the week.)

All of the examples in this thread fit perfectly into the article's section on
why the common view persists despite the wealth of evidence to the contrary:
confirmation bias. For instance (not an example from the article): Americans
are "individualistic" even though 51% of Americans go to church (the ultimate
in collectivism) at least once a month. But that massive groundswell of
collectivism isn't seen as such. Even the much disliked growth in partisan
politics is just another form of collectivism.

~~~
fogetti
There is no article but there is a paywall instead. Before you make your self-
conceited, complacent argument make sure you don't render yourself stupid next
time.

------
guessthejuice
"Common view" by whom? Academics who needed to make things up to in order to
make a name for themselves? Media who needed to fetishize to get views?

The only way we say one culture is "collectivist" and another
"individualistic" is if we cherrypick data or history?

How we branded ourselves as an "individualistic" culture when for 500 years,
our identifying cultural contribution was collectivist racism. The fact of the
matter is that the west conquered the world because we were far more
collectivist than anyone else. It wasn't the "rugged individual" who conquered
africa, america, asia, etc. It certainly wasn't the "rugged individual" that
wiped out natives, enslaved africans, etc.

It's funny how we took 500 years of our collectivism and then dumped it on the
japanese, chinese, etc and branded ourselves as "individualistic".

All nations are individualists and collectivistic at the same time.

~~~
sabas123
The individualism/collectivism scale describes the level of inter-dependence
on closely related in-groups and the level of support for them and are all
taking place on the level of an individual. Things like family fall into this
category.

It has nothing to do with how nations/groups conquer each other.

------
kazinator
Collectivism is the _denial_ of the individual; it is inherently rude.

