
Some 4.5M Japanese aged between 35 and 54 are living with their parents - e15ctr0n
http://in.reuters.com/article/japan-ageing-singles-idINKBN17K2OQ
======
ithinkinstereo
Japan is a preview of what's coming to many developed western economies.

I found this paragraph from the article disturbingly similar to the situation
here in the states:

"The rise in those shunning marriage, experts say, is due not only to more
diverse life-styles but to an increase in low-paying, unstable jobs. Part-
timers, temps or contract workers now account for nearly 40 percent of the
workforce compared to about 20 percent in the 1980s."

I imagine this will only be accelerated with the rise of AI and increasing job
automation. Already, we're seeing the average age when people get married and
have kids rise with each generation. I think alot of this is due to job
instability, depressed wages, rise of the 1099 worker with no benefits, etc.
Reminds me of the situation in China, where unless you have a house and a car,
you're basically persona-non-grata.

So if you're a young person in the US, you're doubly screwed. All your friends
and potential dating partners are concentrated in the big cities, but those
are also the places with the highest costs of living, highest costs to own a
home, to raise a kid, etc.

If you're mid 20s / early 30s person in San Fran and you're not working for
GOOG/FB/APPL etc. you're basically screwed.

~~~
majormajor
This is a rather narrow perspective. Lotta _cheap_ big cities with lots of
jobs if you're not on the coast.

The people really screwed aren't the ones in Dallas, Atlanta, or Charlotte -
where an average home is something like 200K and jobs can be found - they're
the ones in dying small towns that have been left by businesses, or in the
expensive coastal cities where they're caught up in the housing madness but
without the high income or established wealth driving those prices.

They'd be better off moving to, say, the Dallas area, but that's not an option
for everyone. And "you have to pick up your life and say goodbye to everyone
you know because the market says so" is hardly an outcome we should be
promoting.

(I'd also make the argument that we'd be better off getting more diverse
perspectives into those cities, vs our current CA/NY/OR/WA-vs-the-rest-of-the-
US silos, but that's another discussion, and a perfect example of "if you
really believed that so deeply, why don't you move yourself?")

~~~
zzzzzzzza
"you have to pick up your life and say goodbye to everyone you know because
the market says so" is hardly an outcome we should be promoting.

Disagree. If your town's way of life is based on for example, coal mining,
then good riddance. Another example, perhaps the town is based on agriculture
but drones cut the need for labor in half, some people will have to either
learn some skill that can be applied remotely or move elsewhere to efficiently
allocate their labor. The government (imo) shouldn't be "promoting" any
lifestyle. Let the markets operate.

~~~
surfmike
It's one thing if your community is dying economically. It's a different story
if your area is doing great economically, but housing is so restricted that
only a narrow subset of people can live there. Especially since government
(via zoning) is creating the artificial scarcity in the first place.

~~~
maherbeg
This is so true. The flip side of "let small towns die" is "let big cities
thrive".

~~~
ZenoArrow
Only if the big cities have enough untapped jobs that let new residents
thrive.

~~~
adventured
Cities usually significantly outperform when it comes to unemployment:

[http://i.imgur.com/lPB3R7m.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/lPB3R7m.jpg)

~~~
ZenoArrow
That's fine, but it doesn't really address my point.

To put it in different terms... imagine a city has 1 million jobs that pay a
livable wage, and you increase the city's working age population by 2 million.
Even if cities are more efficient at creating new opportunities than rural
areas, that does nothing to address the shortfall in the job market in the
short to medium term. Also, rapidly increasing the population size of a city
tends to push up the price of accommodation faster than an increase in wages,
which reduces the pool of available livable wage jobs.

In short, rapidly increasing the population size of a city without the job
market already set to support it isn't likely to lead to economic stability.

~~~
surfmike
Those jobs get created incredibly quickly, and often the only factor in
preventing them from being living wage jobs is accommodation costs. So cities
should be prepared for allowing accommodation to be built quickly too instead
of adding too much delay and restrictions.

------
sandworm101
I don't see the "illusions". It isn't as if these people are daily choosing
their life. There aren't huge numbers of well-paid jobs out there for them or
anyone else. Just because someone isn't successful doesn't mean they are under
some sort of illusion. The word "parasite" also implies that these people
should somehow stop living, that they are such a drain that the parasite
should just let got and die rather than continue the only life available to
them.

They may have made some mistakes, but in previous generations a few mistakes
now and again was not a life sentence. A few years off the books wasn't a big
deal in the 80s or 90s. Now any gap in your linkedin profile is interrogated.
In Japan and elsewhere, anyone with a blot on their employment record is
doomed. And heaven help those with any criminal convictions. Our societies
today deliberately push away so many people. It is improper of us to then say
that it is entirely their fault or that they suffer illusions. The illusion is
ours, that by shunning and dispossessing people for slight imperfections we
only amplify them.

Once upon a time there was a net of reasonable jobs that didn't pay well but
allowed people a life, low-level government jobs that took anyone willing to
work hard. But has anyone here looked at how hard it is to become a postal
worker or to join the army? Ability and willingness is no longer enough. (I
have relatives in the Canadian Armed Forces. The application process takes at
least one and sometimes many years.)

~~~
phs318u
Direct quote from the first subject:

"I got used to living in an unstable situation and figured somehow it would
work out"

That last bit is illusory thinking.

Also, I'd beg to differ on your suggestion that these people aren't choosing
their life every single day. I'd suggest the opposite is true for most of us
(leaving aside those who through incapacity have diminished options). Every
single day you don't make an effort to look for work, don't volunteer for
something, don't organise an activity, don't spend some time learning
something, don't go somewhere to meet people, don't go on a date - you are
making a choice. Living with your parents and (more importantly) living off
your parents well into your fifties is not an accident. You can't accidentally
do that. That is directly the result of daily choices and illusory thinking.

And while we can agreee that the term "parasite" is pejorative, I find it is
deserved- at least from the perspective of the parent (who in this case is
probably as much to blame for this situation).

My daughters are 20 and 18 and the expectation has long been set in our family
that they will be moving out once they're in stable employment (and by that I
mean any job that can pay their bills, not their dream job). When both kids
are out of the house, we'll downsize and share some of the cashed out equity
to help them get started on the property ladder. Then they're on their own. In
our family we refer to this as "The Plan". They've been hearing about the Plan
(and been onboard) since their early teens.

~~~
sandworm101
>>> ... they will be moving out once they're in stable employment.

Have you met any 20-somethings in stable employment? Unless your daughters are
supermodels or have PHDs in biotech they are in for at least a decade of
contract work and constant job-hunting. Even those at their dream jobs know
they stand on the knife's edge. And the property ladder, the average home
price in my area is over 500k and closer to 1m if you want to be in driving
distance of any "stable" job. Even with the 20% down payment only top earners
even qualify for a loan. I hope you are ready to co-sign their mortgages.

~~~
eximius
I am a 20 something who was hired for a salaried position shortly after
graduation with a bachelors degree in math. I bought a house less than a year
later (granted, with an FHA loan and less than the traditional 20% down).

Most of my friends in a major field of engineering or computer science are
just fine as well (IT-degrees and _almost_ comp sci degrees don't fair as
well).

The world is not as dismal as it may seem for millenials. It's just that
demand for STEM +CS continues to grow while the demand for other fields is
stagnant, relying on people leaving the workforce to create new openings.

~~~
RandomOpinion
> _I am a 20 something who was hired for a salaried position shortly after
> graduation with a bachelors degree in math. ... The world is not as dismal
> as it may seem for millenials. It 's just that demand for STEM + CS
> continues to grow while the demand for other fields is stagnant, relying on
> people leaving the workforce to create new openings._

That means you weren't around for the dot-com bust in 2001 or so. Yes, things
are good right now but the situation can go south very suddenly and with very
little warning and stay bad for several years.

~~~
eximius
I work at a finance company so I'm not too worried.

EDIT: In hindsight, I see the irony of that statement. But I also know we
don't get involved with the sort of schenanigans that hurt firms in the last
crisis.

------
linkregister
The second example was not a "parasite single," he was someone who tragically
got Parkinson's disease after already having a career. The fact that the
journalist couldn't find two legitimate anecdotes makes me question whether
this is an actual trend in Japan.

~~~
averagewall
What's the difference between tragically getting a disease and tragically
failing to get a stable job? They are both conditions that lead to being a
"parasite". Your comment sounds like you're blaming the victims of poverty for
being poor. Not everyone is equipped to make the best personal choices for
their lives. There will always be people who lack motivation and make mistakes
just as there will be people who get diseases.

~~~
linkregister
I think you are seriously misreading my comment; give it another glance.

The journalists's use of the pejorative "parasite" is not appropriate for
someone who fell under serious misfortune as living with Parkinson's.
"Parasite" implies a willful decision to live off another's resources. The
first example was that: the woman decided to pursue emotionally fulfilling
work without saving or contributing to a pension.

I'm criticizing the journalist, who in the attempt to document a "weird Japan"
trend, just dug up a sad story which could have happened anywhere in the
world.

------
6stringmerc
I think it's hard for some non-US Citizens to understand how rather backwards
and unwelcome the thought is for Grown Children as Adults to be living at home
with their Parents. The cultural fabric of the US mentality is to grow up and
achieve "Independence" as a general concept. That usually means living away
from family, and having the means to do so.

Culturally, living with one's Parents in the United States, as a grown Adult,
with or without a Spouse, is going to be predominately portrayed as a negative
lifestyle indicator. As in, the Individual doesn't have the choice of
Independence, at least not the basic financial / living arrangements type.

The "Sandwich Generation" label scares the ever loving spirit of freedom out
of most US people who might find themselves caught between providing for both
Kids AND Parents.

Assimilation into values such as this US type of Independence are,
understandably, quite foreign to several other Large Cultures elsewhere in the
World. However, on this turf, it is the prevailing attitude. No amount of
"Well in other countries it's perfectly normal" will turn the tide regarding
this component of the US life experience, and, at least here, it's an
indicator of a need to further assimilate or, unfortunately, deal with
cultural push back.

To be fair to the US, this happens when US people try to ascribe their values
to other cultures as well. I get it. Two way street.

~~~
adventured
I have some kind of fetish for saving interesting data images, so here's one
for this (covering Europe + US):

[http://i.imgur.com/Ps8qQ4A.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/Ps8qQ4A.jpg)

~~~
distances
It's worth noting that getting to the low percentages requires a society that
subsidizes living costs. In the Nordic countries living with your parents as
an adult implies some non-financial reason to do so; every adult will receive
housing benefits for independent living if needed.

------
mooreds
Not a very informative article, unfortunately. No discussion of what caused
the issue, what is being done to help these folks, or if anything can be done.
A few of these folks are profiled, but one of them was diagnosed with a
disease in his 40s and would have issues whether or not he lived with his
parents.

The bigger issue is the tremendous waste of human capital at a time when Japan
needs employees more and more. (Of course, it is the right of these
individuals to live their lives as they see fit, but society would benefit if
they were more productive.)

Maybe the employers need to change? Maybe the social net needs to be modified
to encourage work? Not sure how to change incentives, but it certainly seems a
large subset of that generation isn't headed anywhere good.

------
Gustomaximus
I wonder if the west will see a similar effect from the outta control property
prices. Historically when people retire they have their house paid off and
they can live on a low budget for the retirement years. This is likely not
going to be the case for a large number of people in ~35 off years.

~~~
mooreds
As far as affecting retirement, I am less worried about rising property prices
and more concerned about how easy it is to access home equity. That ease makes
it very tempting to dip into your nest egg when you should be paying down your
mortgage. And there's always some reason to borrow.

Of course, that is only an issue for folks who've been able to buy property,
but as another comment mentions, if you leave certain metro areas property
becomes very affordable very quick.

~~~
PebblesHD
The issue here then becomes what do you do at 60 when you've been unable to
purchase property and can now not qualify for a standard 30 year mortgage? If
you've paid 35% of your before tax income in rent since you were 20 on a
standard salary, you've got maybe $150k(AUD) in savings if you were really,
really dedicated, which isn't even enough to buy a house 600km out of a major
city (Sydney in my example) and now have no income outside of superannuation
or a government pension? Quality of retirement (in Australia) evaporates if
you have to pay market rate rents...

~~~
pm90
I might be wrong since I don't know what the economy in Australia is like, but
it is VERY unlikely for someone in the US to have $150k in savings and yet not
own a home. In fact the opposite does happen a lot: _all_ of a person's equity
is in their house, and they have $0 in savings. But then they sell their
house, move to a cheaper house and used the difference to make ends meet.

~~~
ericd
Hm, that sounds an awful lot like a Ponzi scheme, if people are actually
expecting that. Do you think a large percentage of people are planning on
that?

~~~
toomuchtodo
That's all most Americans have, besides a small monthly Social Security
benefit.

------
olivermarks
Perhaps some of these people chose to live in a close family unit with their
relatives through choice. This is how millions of people live in other
cultures worldwide, caring for each other. No shame in that at all. This
article appears to be pro rat race or be shamed...

~~~
marak830
That is common here, I'm an Aussie with a Japanese wife, I just invited her
grandparents to live with us. (Grab spa is old and grandma has to look after
him, this way we can help, and grandma can help my wife when we have a child)

~~~
Markoff
isn't it their own children who should take care of them? I find it odd they
skipped one generation and they are going to burden you

I think help from them with your child will be much less valuable (close to
zero due to advanced age) than your help to them

~~~
toomuchtodo
Some people perform selfless acts because they're decent people.

------
finid
In many societies, living with your parents is nothing unusual, especially if
they own their own home.

~~~
adrianlmm
Name 3 please.

~~~
finid
Three!

Let's do it the other way. I'll name only one where living with your parents
is considered not kosher - the USA. In practically every traditional society,
living in the family home is just fine, especially for those members of the
family that don't have their own homes.

In fact if the family home is sizable, raising your own family inside the
family home is OK too. I've seen it everywhere I've traveled - much of Africa
and South America.

~~~
adrianlmm
>raising your own family inside the family home is OK too

Sure, is OK, but is not ideal, and is done mostly by necessity, for economic
reasons.

~~~
ericd
There can be big benefits to being near your family, including health and
mental health benefits, besides the economic benefits. Recent parents being
able to lean on the grandparents, rather than sending kids to expensive
daycares that frankly don't really care about the child as much as a
grandparent will, for example.

~~~
Markoff
I would tend to disagree with this. Grandparent may value your child more than
worker in daycare, but socialization of your child will suffer a lot, so will
its development, child need to be with peers and not home with 2 old people.
Same goes for playing and learning, there justisn't enough stimulation at home
compared to daycare.

~~~
ericd
Who says children need constant stimulation? They've historically had no
trouble filling the gaps with their imagination. If anything, I think that
attention span has suffered greatly because children are never allowed to be
bored anymore.

------
nihonde
Am I the only person who sees this as good news? There is a lot to learn from
old people, and seniors often need the help at home.

------
mc32
Recently I heard senator Warren speak of what she essentially described as the
selling out of the middle class starting with Reagan and with the tacit
support of democrats.

When you see the effects of the maturation of an economy plus globalization,
it's apparent it's not as simple as saying that beginning in the '80s the
establishment sold out the middle class in favor of the elite. There is more
at play. Japan has been suffering from the same issues, but somewhat
differently due to some structural rigidity.

Japan is, as they say, complicated. Work culture (at the extreme death from
over work, but commonly getting home very late due to social obligations at
work), gender roles (still difficult for women to achieve success on par with
men), cost of living, hiring practices (must be hired before graduation)
hyperactive brand awareness (the new cool thing minted by thirteen year olds
must be had by virtually 50% of the pop) and to some degree idealization of a
bohemian way of life and repudiation of their previous generations' attitudes
toward work. All these things come together and result in a ~30year
intractable malaise.

If they could just get themselves to address the biggest issue, make it easier
for women to work and succeed (opportunities, responsibilities, salaries, time
off for family and bigly social expectations) they just might have a chance at
improving things, but I'm not holding my breath.

~~~
Banthum
Your comment made sense up until the last paragraph. I honestly see no
connection between giving things to women and solving any of the problems
we're discussing here. In fact it could make things worse by further
saturating the job market, increasing living costs (e.g. restaurants replace
home-cooked meals), and so on.

Japan's biggest issue is simple demographics and capital saturation, not
conservative views on women in the workplace. In the past, when the economy
was roaring, their views on women were even more conservative than now, and it
clear didn't hold them back at that time.

~~~
mc32
You can't have an apathetic population get involved (in society) when they
have lots to lose but little to gain. Partners coming home at 11pm and leaving
at 5am isn't a "partner". Why would any one want to raise a family and ensure
the continuation of the society when you're in that situation.

Basically what they did and continue to do is forgo roughly half their
potential workforce and half their overall potential because they could not
bother to make things even semi-attractive for women to stay employed beyond
30.

------
hyperion2010
I interpreted this as an allusion to this song [0]. They are seeing life from
the other side now.

0\.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7Xm30heHms](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7Xm30heHms)

------
Markoff
I missed in the article what is the percentage in other countries making Japan
special with 20%.

Btw. is there something wrong with it, if parents and the men are fine with
that, what's the problem here? At least parents will have someone to take care
of them, my wife's uncle is in similar position and I don't see it as anything
bad, at least other children with better jobs no need to take care of them. Or
the preffered option is to dump own parents to retirement home and stay in
your own apartment, if someone has no problem with the other option?

------
mm4
premiss is way off. it's not because they're single, but because they did not
work they are in trouble... this article feels like social engineering - well
juppies marry marry marry

~~~
ZenoArrow
FYI, spelling of 'premiss' is 'premise'.

------
adrianlmm
Nobody likes killjoys, and I see so much denial in these comments, yes, you
will get old and the desitions you make today matter for your future even if
you choose to ignore that fact and "live for the moment".

