

Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality just got several fascinating updates - benhamner
http://hpmor.com

======
comex
Hmm... I wouldn't agree with the people in this thread hailing it as a great
work of literature. The main character is a complete Mary Sue - somewhat like
Ender, but, in my opinion, considerably worse, although it's been toned down a
bit in the later chapters.

But I only say that to counter those people - it's indeed a delightful and
addictive read. The only problem is that it updates quite infrequently and is
nowhere near done - I had been suspecting that it'd been abandoned. Reading 90
or so chapters (at high speed, due to the addictiveness) only to come to a
screeching halt and have to wait months for a few more chapters is not that
fun!

~~~
loup-vaillant
While Harry _is_ ridiculously overpowered, his enemies are correspondingly
scary.

Eliezer won't abandon this fic. If I recall correctly, there is one last arc
left after the current one one. Though I would't count on it before next year.

~~~
wnewman
Not just his enemies. For me, a number of the most memorable flourishes of the
book are how formidable it makes some of the other people, at least in some
respects --- the defense professor especially, but at various points in the
story he turns the formidability firehose on people like Hermione and Aurors
and the prankster brothers. It's a bit of a dramatic problem, actually,
because it leaves people who haven't been sprayed looking so ineffectual that
it's hard to understand why they take up so much dramatic space. E.g., I think
the story would work better if Draco got more formidability to justify his
apparent importance. At least Draco could have gotten a chance to win big by
applying some of the applied organization theory tips from his father, perhaps
by being the one to deploy effective staff/delegation/incentive techniques in
the war games. Or the unimpressive frontline support security provided by his
father could be backed by a second-line security specialist chosen by his
father who shows up on call and gets some of the formidability and
formidabilitytrainer love that the story gives to Aurors and defense
professors.

~~~
loup-vaillant
Err, Draco sounded pretty formidable to me. He came close to overcome his
education, and even _did_ overcome it to some extent. Crabbe and Goyle are
very apt bruisers, formidable broomstick riders, and once showed a rather
sophisticated education (being able to change the level of politeness at will
without sounding fake is quite a feat at that age --"Da boss want to speak
with ya" vs "Mr Malfoy requests an audience with you").

Your suggestions do sound good, though.

------
swombat
If you've not read this yet, don't start... unless you have a weekend to spend
on it.

HP & the MoR is one of the most compulsive and intelligent reading experiences
out there. Comparable to the late Iain M Banks in compulsion, imho, and half
again as clever and witty.

~~~
GFischer
Actually, you've made a good pitch for Iain M. Banks, haven't read him yet,
but if it's half as good... :)

~~~
randallsquared
The inverse of half again is two thirds. Just sayin'. :)

------
Osmium
Out of interest, how many people recommending this usually read fanfiction?
Because I gave it a try a good while back but got a bit frustrated with it. It
seemed to read more as a parody (albeit a good one) rather than something more
faithful to the characters.

~~~
paulgerhardt
I have never read any other fanfiction but I found this series a good primer
on modern logic and fun idle reading.

Unfortunately, it has a few cringeworthy moments and tropes[1]. It is
definitely precocious at parts and not hard to draw the parallels with the
whole Übermensch/Singularity thing (though to my understanding, the author has
distanced himself from the organization and is currently at MIRI).

My chief criticism would be that it is overly bashful of the original Harry
Potter story logic but lacks a tight plot through the second half. (Admittedly
something very difficult to do with serialized fiction.) Up until chapter 87 I
got the feel the story went off the rails, but the last few updates have been
very interesting (no spoilers.)

If you enjoyed Snow Crash and do not mind fantasy, you would probably be into
this. Don't take it too seriously and keep in mind it is about 1000 pages now.

[1] In particular:
[http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue)
/
[http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MartyStu](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MartyStu)

~~~
MaxScheiber
Interestingly enough, Yudkowsky probably uses these tropes deliberately. He
himself is a reader of tvtropes.org[1], he's made explicit reference to using
tropes before[2], and it makes senes that someone like Yudkowsky would know
exactly which tropes he was and wasn't including.

[1]
[http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Creator/EliezerYudkows...](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Creator/EliezerYudkowsky?from=Main.EliezerYudkowsky)
[2] [http://hpmor.com/chapter/7](http://hpmor.com/chapter/7)

~~~
Osmium
But that almost makes it worse! Knowingly writing a Mary Sue is almost
inexcusable if you're trying to write legitimate fiction (rather than an
educational parody). I have nothing against parodies, especially good ones,
but I just think they should be labelled as such. It slightly pains me that
it's being held up as a good example of fan fiction when, arguably, it's not.

~~~
smsm42
I have mixed feelings about "trying to write legitimate fiction". Sometimes I
have distinct feeling the author just abandons all pretense of writing
literature in order to get the point across or turn the story in the way
necessary for him. OTOH, I have seen stranger (in my opinion) styles being
considered legitimate, and even commendable, examples of literature, so who I
am to judge? I'd read it as long as it is entertaining and thought-provoking,
and stop if it ever stops being so, and I think that'd be enough.

As for labeling, who cares?

------
manku_timma
Lost two nights to this one. It is definitely the best fan fiction I have read
and more so. IMO JK Rowling's version pales in comparision to this, but
without the inconsistencies of the original book, this HPMOR wouldn't have
been possible. If you've read the original, you owe it to yourself to read
this.

------
benhamner
If you've not read this, strap yourself in - you're in for a ride. Eliezer, an
AI researcher, has created this novel from a simple yet fascinating standpoint
- what if Harry was a brilliant rationalist who engaged the magical world from
a scientific standpoint? Don't dismiss this because it's a fanfic or
incomplete - it introduces rationality, breaks many fantasy and geek tropes,
and builds off Rowling's universe in a highly entertaining and thought-
provoking page turner (I guess a modernization of this idiom would be "iPad
flicker").

------
ZeroGravitas
I've just realised that this is somewhat the inverse of the Science of
Discworld books.

Those books are split into alternative chapters of popular science, and
Discworld stories about the characters reacting to our science from their
point of view as characters in a fantasty novel.

So you get wizards that accidentally create a "strange" universe full of
"roundworlds" and then having them wondering why people don't fall off the
bottom, cue chapter on gravity and planet formation. Or in the second one they
meet the "God of evolution".

I avoided reading them for years assuming they were going to be full of
Dorling Kindersley "Science of Star Wars" type books full of pop-up AT-ATs and
cut-away diagrams of lightsabers, but they're among the best pop science books
I've read (though, I'm a fan of Pratchett, which undoubtedly helps)

------
JulianMorrison
Just gotta say, I don't appreciate the "women in refrigerators" trope.

~~~
ZeroGravitas
I read an earlier version of this and felt it had a few very dark moments
that, even allowing for it being based off a young adult book, seemed out of
place. I've never read the original and so I wondered if this was playing off
something in the source material e.g. villains that couldn't really be
villainous in an adult way.

~~~
JulianMorrison
The original is full of Dastardly-and-Muttley villains who are evil because it
says "evil" on their character sheet; what motivations they have are shallow
and their plots are made by Acme.

------
tome
Do you have to have read (or like) Harry Potter to appreciate this? I read
several chapters (8 or so) and I actually found the story very distracting
from the rationality message.

~~~
skizm
I would say yes. So much of the world is taken directly from the actual Harry
Potter books and a lot of the fun is to see the effect new Harry has on the
same world.

~~~
loup-vaillant
I would say no. There are readers who haven't read the original book, and
still enjoy the fanfic. I agree that much of the fun is taken away from those,
though.

~~~
swombat
You need some familiarity with the world, though, to get many of the jokes
("In what universe would someone like Hermione get sorted anywhere but
Ravenclaw?" \- "Ron's just..." "You just don't see any good reason for him to
exist?" "Yeah.") and also knowing the story allows you to anticipate certain
realities before Harry gets to grip with them. For example, we all know that
Voldemort is Professor Quirrell, but Harry doesn't (at least not as far as
I've read).

Background knowledge definitely helps with the enjoyment - and imho is the
only reason why you'd want to read the JK Rowling books or watch the movies! I
mean, I don't dislike the books (I've read them), but they're not much more
than decent entertainment (with some of them dragging on, and on, and on).

~~~
loup-vaillant
I... Agree. I'd advise someone who is reading the fanfic to watch the first
two films, then maybe read a summary of the rest.

------
bryanlarsen
Is it done yet? I read it when it was half the length it is now, and
thoroughly enjoyed it. When it is done I will read it again, starting from the
beginning.

~~~
Luc
I don't know if Eliezer has said anything about how long he intends it to be.
A new story arc just started, and it's pretty great. It seems like this could
go on for a few more years.

~~~
Ilverin
He said that he is done through chapter 96, and implied that it might be the
end (said at chapter 86 that there were "2 or 3" arcs left, and arcs tend to
be about 4 chapters...).

------
tzs
If you like HPMOR as entertainment (rather than just for educational value),
then another fanfic you might enjoy is "A Study in Magic" [1].

It's a crossover between HP and the BBC's "Sherlock", where the Dursleys get
killed before the start of the story in one of Moriarty's schemes against
Holmes. Holmes and Watson end up adopting Harry and raising him. Harry learns
a lot about observation and deduction from Holmes, and makes good use of this
dealing with the problems he confronts at Hogwarts. Holmes is not content to
act like a normal Muggle parent and ignore the wizarding world once his child
leaves for Hogwarts. He takes an active (and not always welcomed) interest in
wizard affairs.

[1] [http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7578572/1/A-Study-in-
Magic](http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7578572/1/A-Study-in-Magic)

------
nullspace
The index page looks really interesting, the kind of index page that would
lead me to read the book. Can someone give a gist of what this fanfic is
about?

(I loved the Harry Potter series and I love Nassim Talebs works if that
matters)

~~~
edent
Imagine if Harry Potter was a little more inquisitive...

In this universe, HP was raised by scientists. So, whenever he is introduced
to some new magic, he says "Why? How? What are the limits?"

For example - could one apparate to the moon?

~~~
rictic
Also many (but not all) characters have had their competence, intelligence,
and in general their power level increased significantly (so that the story
stays interesting, given that Harry's intelligence has been greatly boosted
too).

------
tehwalrus
I've not seen this before - the first three chapters have had me guffawing
something dreadful!

I'm going to have to ration my reading of this...

------
skizm
If you are just starting this, make it through at least chapter 10 before
deciding if you want to stop reading. That's where things really pick up.

------
chunkit
I stumbled over this a few years back and decided not to start reading it
until Yudkowsky stopped adding to it or at least chunked some subset of the
chapters into one or more books. When I read fiction such as this I want there
to be a clearly defined beginning and end to the story. Eternal soap-operas,
even if clever, aren't for me.

~~~
loup-vaillant
It will end soon. I'd say in a year from now, at most. There is also an e-pub
version.

------
n09n
So, why should an adult choose to read this over actual literature?

~~~
bromagosa
I agree with you in all possible ways.

Counting that your average lifespan will be around 85 years, and you've been
reading real literature since you were 14, that gives you 71 years of good
reading. That is, if you are lucky enough to preserve your eyesight.

On average, let's say you read about 12 books per year, which gives you the
sad total amount of 852 books you'll be able to read in your whole life. In my
case, I've still got enough time for 684 more books. Think about this when you
go into a library. A whole life worth of books fits into a couple of
bookshelves...

There are more authors worth reading than books I'll ever be able to read
before I die. So, nope. IMO you should NOT choose to read this over actual
literature.

~~~
gjm11
Someone so concerned to optimize their reading experience really ought to be
reading more than 12 books a year.

~~~
bromagosa
If I was reading more than 12 books a year, I wouldn't be so concerned to
optimize my reading experience ;)

Anyway, that was just an average, and I was just talking about literature, I
wasn't including essays or technical books.

~~~
gjm11
So you're happy to read things other than "literature". (Quite right!)

Which makes it a bit strange to say "don't read this, because it isn't
literature". (Not your actual words, but I don't believe I'm misrepresenting
your meaning.)

As you clearly appreciate, there are many reasons for reading things. Some of
those reasons are best served by reading highbrow literature, some by reading
technical books. Is there some general principle that makes it obvious to you
that there is no good reason that would be well served by reading HPMoR?

Perhaps you have read enough of it to know you don't like it. Perhaps you've
found "fanfiction is always junk" so reliable a guide that it would take an
enormous amount of contrary evidence to change your mind in any instance. Fair
enough, in both cases; but in both cases the actual reasons are much more
detailed than "it isn't _literature_ , so away with it".

