

Ask HN: How to consistently generate traffic and new customers for Ramamia? - jasonlbaptiste

Hi HN, over the past few months,Mark Bao and I have been trying to figure out how to exactly launch Ramamia, our family sharing app.<p>Link here: http://staging.ramamia.com<p>We've been in beta for a number of months and this is our kind of final product. At first, we were going to go for a premium model, as in: the only plan we have is a $40 a year or $5 a month plan, with a 21-day free trial.<p>We're not sure how we will generate steady incoming traffic. So I thought--why not use free as a marketing tool? So thus--freemium.<p>We're just not sure about how we are going to generate a stream of incoming traffic for our app, which is a big problem. Should we go freemium or stick with premium?<p>Keep in mind... with a freemium model, we'd restrict a number of things like # of photos per month, remove video functionality, etc. but there will be still a lower conversion rate to prem... though we might get more leads from 'free' valprop.
======
mattmaroon
First off I'd change the name. It makes no sense, and is hard to pronounce at
a glance. Getting people back to your app is step #1 in both engagement and
virality, and your name is harmful there. You seem to be about sharing stuff
with family (which is inherently viral) so make your name reflect that. You
chose some stock photography designed to play in Middle America, make your URL
match.

The nice thing with this type of product is that people upload photos and
videos of family members mainly to share with other family members, so right
there you have inherently viral behavior. Your job now is to make it as
frictionless as possible.

Add in those viral channels. Make it easy to share via Facebook or email. I
can't sign up for the product to see what you have enabled, but you should
have Facebook Connect at the very least. I'd use Google Friend Connect,
Yahoo's equivalent, and MSN's as well to make it easy to import contacts and
email them a photo or link to a group of photos with one click.

Do you have embeds? Can people embed a family video on their blog trivially
from your site? Can they share it via Twitter with a click?

Just spend some time figuring out how your users want to share these things
(this is one of those rare instances where simply asking them will return high
value info) and make that easy as pie.

So there's your traffic. Freemium seems to be almost a necessity here. I
really can't think of an alternative monetization model that makes sense.

Premium-only is death to viral spread. If you decide to go that route, I'd
assume you'll have to purchase traffic via AdSense and the like. Get some
metrics in place early so you can calculate CPA and RPU. Test with a few
thousand bucks worth of ads. If your RPU turns out to be a large multiple of
CPA you're set. Just know that with premium only you're aiming for relatively
low traffic and relatively high RPU. Not a bad way to go for the right
product, but you need to be insanely metrics-driven to make that work.

~~~
markbao
Wow, Matt—thank you very much for the thorough suggestions.

> _First off I'd change the name. It makes no sense, and is hard to pronounce
> at a glance._

Hell yeah, this has been a gut instinct since day 1. I've been trying to
brainstorm new names, but have come up with nothing. I think a name change is
a good idea, though, for sure.

> _but you should have Facebook Connect at the very least._

Yeah, we're tied into Facebook Connect and Twitter:
[http://screenshots.markbao.com/a137e44e036028bb19f171c201b2f...](http://screenshots.markbao.com/a137e44e036028bb19f171c201b2fc05.png)
->
[http://screenshots.markbao.com/082acda74154efb50e52d95a11a1c...](http://screenshots.markbao.com/082acda74154efb50e52d95a11a1c85f.png)
->
[http://screenshots.markbao.com/b2baae910327fd86f658f2fd29c46...](http://screenshots.markbao.com/b2baae910327fd86f658f2fd29c4675d.png)

> _Do you have embeds? Can people embed a family video on their blog trivially
> from your site?_

That's an oversight. Thanks, putting that on the imp list.

> _Just spend some time figuring out how your users want to share these things
> (this is one of those rare instances where simply asking them will return
> high value info) and make that easy as pie._

Definitely a good idea. I think we put together a Ramamia user survey a while
ago but never acted upon it for some reason. Probably a good time to get that
rolling.

> _So there's your traffic. Freemium seems to be almost a necessity here. I
> really can't think of an alternative monetization model that makes sense._

You're probably right. I had a gut instinct that while Premium would be the
easiest and most reliable way to get conversions (no unpredictability in the
conversions, in some way) it would be restricting to growth and customer
acquisition. I think we've come to the consensus that freemium is probably the
way to go.

Thank you again, Matt!

~~~
mattmaroon
Yeah coming up with names is wicked hard in the age of domain squatters.
You'll find one I'm sure.

Even if you go the freemium route, check out AdWords. Getting the right combo
of keywords can be a lot of work, but you may just find you can acquire paying
users for much less than you make off of them. Especially since you're
presumably using subscription billing here. And it's highly scalable, once you
find the right audience you can probably buy them by the truckload.

~~~
markbao
We did a quick run with AdWords and it turned out to be total crap. The volume
of searches for stuff like "family website" was abysmal and the CPCs for stuff
like "family photos" was out of the water. So, yeah. We're definitely looking
to do it, but not without some conversion % estimates.

~~~
jasonlbaptiste
I think we'd be better off giving families an option for a "public page".
Focusing on SEO over SEM would be a better long term goal. The CAC and
conversion numbers didn't make sense with the small test we did for SEM. then
again, that might be a bad way of looking at it since we used such a small
sample.

------
dmix
If you really believe your offering value, then my vote is for premium right
away. Freemium isn't really a marketing tool, its more of a business model.

A 30-60 day free trials or 30% off for a year might help grab early adopters.
Of course it will always come down to trial and error. I'd launch it asap and
see what works for your market.

For pricing your users know better then us!

Regarding traffic, I'd try SEM with some nice landing pages to find the right
marketing message.

Besides that, the top of this chart shows the other online marketing
approaches. <http://www.flickr.com/photos/500hats/577630547/sizes/o/>

~~~
markbao
Sweet graphic, thanks for that.

Hmm, I've heard it both ways. 'Freemium isn't a business model, it's a
marketing tool!' 'Freemium isn't a marketing tool, it's a business model! '

The problem is that we'd like to launch (since we're doing this big press
launch and stuff) with a more perfected version of our model, so we want to
find the best way that works first before launching, you know?

Thanks very much!

~~~
jhancock
I'd recommend going straight to premium with 30-day trial. Its too much work
to segment and manage the fremium feature set.

~~~
prawn
What do people think about offering $x/yr and $y/mo options? When I see $y/mo
in these situations, it reminds me of mobile phone billing scams. My gut feel
is that you'd only want $x/yr in this situation. Do Flickr have a monthly
option? From memory, they just have 1 year, 2 years and then just mention a
monthly cost to demonstrate how cheap it is?

~~~
jhancock
I lean the same way in this situation. You may find giving one choice gets
better results than making the user think too much.

------
apsurd
Why not do both?

I'm hustling to get my new app out and I plan to use a kind of "hybrid"
system. Perhaps it has a name but the premise is just that you have to attach
VALUE to whatever it is you are giving away. If you price something as "FREE"
and then give it away, then the user does not feel like he's really getting
anything. If you price something for $200.00, and then give it away, well they
just got $200 for FREE - AWESOME!!

So my current plan of attack is have 3 pricing tiers that all costs money.
Then as of now, I'm in "beta" so I have this huge "sale" "this month only"
where all users get "PLUS accounts FREE FOR LIFE!". And clearly right there,
Plus accounts normally cost $100/yr, so I'm reasoning that a customer would
derive more value from signing up than if I had just called the Plus plan
"free" with a fat ass zero for the price.

So in other words. Be a premium product so everyone understands you are worth
something, and then have sales, and reasons to give those oh-so-valuable plans
away.

HTH

~~~
markbao
Heh, I read about this tactic in the Yes! book. It's a great one. I think it'd
be a great tactic to do for a short term marketing run, but labeling a Basic
product as $30 a year BUT YOURS FREE!!!1one for the long term might not be so
reputable, right?

Thanks for your input!

~~~
apsurd
Yeah, as a once-upon-a-time dreamhost customer, I was pretty annoyed to have
paid $119 for a years hosting only to see that they discount it 98% every now
and then. Definitely not a good feeling.

I think what I'm thinking is more a long the lines of "actually" giving away a
non-free plan. So whatever your entry level paid plan is, just lower it a
little more, and then be prepared to charge money for it, but anytime you want
to do a marketing push, give it away for free. So its not going to be like
some secretly free plan. The whole point is to give something of value away
for free. I think all customers would appreciate that.

Lastly, I like how 37 signals has a lowly-advertised ass-basic free plan. It's
still free, but they make it a point to really imply that "it aint all that
great". I like this because it implicitly reminds every customer that deals
with 37 signals that their product costs money for a reason. It's kind of like
thinking about it backwards...why would I think this company is worth anything
if they give everything away for free? Actually...thats EXACTLY what I think
about dreamhost now. I have to say back in the days I thought dh was a good
company because it was _better than_ the godaddy account I came from. But I've
come to realize they absolutely whore out their plans (98% wtf) and its
literally at a direct cost to their full-paying customers.. (shared hosting) I
am officially not a fan of dh and I am that burned enough to leave a negative
comment about them in a public forum as I'm doing now ... Give your customers
something of value!!

------
drp
Do something that is pressworthy outside of just 'x startup has launched.'
Playing off current events is always great, but an even better way to gain
mindshare among normal people is to get reporters to cite your company any
time they talk about related issues.

The hard work is figuring out what reporters need that you can provide. They
love statistics, and you can always try to get quoted as an expert source on
something related to your company.

This kind of thing will get your name out there and get you the kind of
traffic (and links) you want rather than short bursts of disinterested blog
readers.

------
vaksel
do you guys really have 3,000 users? Or is that a marketing number? If yes,
then you guys should just focus on building a viral loop

~~~
jasonlbaptiste
Admin stats page screenshot: <http://i50.tinypic.com/2dwcg1s.png>

~~~
fnid
That's about 4 photos per user. Doesn't seem like a lot. How many of your
users have over 100 photos, 200, 300? Those are the ones you want to
concentrate on. Ask them how to make the service better. They are your power
users. Most everyone else is just a lurker.

------
dwynings
I've always liked the idea of a freemium system.

I think one way that could really help it spread is to incorporate some kind
of affiliate program. For every paying user that the person brings in, they
get X% off for a premium account that month. Referrals are likely to be huge
in your market.

~~~
markbao
Thanks! We have this implemented already. If a user refers another family that
becomes a paying family, then they get 25% off their yearly price—for life.

------
joez
Just a quick thought, the holiday season (Black Friday, Cyber Monday,
Christmas Gifts) is when a lot digital cameras are sold (especially DSLRs this
year). You might be able to get some traffic (premium) by writing a blog post
on tips on taking family photos, different DSLR settings, poses to try, etc.

This is my thought on how to target consumers who just bought/received a fancy
camera and need a way to share the thousands of photos they took. That's the
quality traffic you want. There might be other ways to target this group?

------
edw519
I have been a Ramamia user for several months and I hate to say it, but I
think your execution may be holding you back. It's not flawless and it needs
to be. In order to become viral you need raving fans and based upon the
experience with my family you don't have that (yet).

I described my family's needs and got the recommendation for Ramamia here at
hn. I think it's exactly what we need and I'm happy with it for the most part,
but haven't seen the same feedback from my family members. Ramamia satisfies
my 2 most important requirements perfectly: users don't need logins and
passwords, and the site is maintained by anyone in the family, not just me.

I know this thread is not for specific feedback and I know that I'm a beta
user, but I thought I'd share it anyway since it's so closely related. You
guys have also done great work; you deserve to see my feedback in a thread
like this instead of an email in case anyone else wants to build upon it...

\- About half my family members (45 people) have never contributed to the
site. I don't even know if they've ever even visited. I suppose this is
normal, but I don't know.

\- The biggest complaint is ease of use. Many members have left the comment
"Enter a comment..." because they clicked the "Add Comment" button before
entering their text. Then they're embarrassed and don't try again.

\- When a link is emailed to someone, that link takes them to the post
referenced, not the main page heading. All they can see is that post. It's not
obviously apparent that by clicking on our family's name that you can go
"Home". You should either put a giant "Home" button at the top, or better yet,
just have all links go directly to the Home page. Chances are the referenced
link is right at the top anyway.

\- Although it's possible to attach text to a picture, it's not apparent how
to attach text to an album, or if you even can.

\- People have figured out how to post pictures or text, but not both in the
same posting.

\- The comments are not threaded (like here at hn) so it's tough to ask and
answer questions and have conversations.

\- Lots of people have forgotten how to get to the site. You might want to
consider a giant sign, "In order to come back here to Ramamia, just click any
link in any email from us."

\- Some family members want to download and share pictures. I have explained
that that's not what this site is for. Then they say, "Well then, we should
use <xyz> instead." I don't know how to respond to them.

\- I have 2 accounts for our family (just to see what everyone else sees).
Several times I have posted but not gotten an email to the other account. I
suspect this was a temporary glitch; it hasn't happened again.

Some of this may sound like nit-picking, but you really need to make it idiot
proof. They keep having problems where I would never imagine. A family website
must always be prepared for non-sophisticated users.

Also, I may be expecting too much of my family members. Maybe a lot of them
just don't care. I suspect that's the nature of this beast, too.

I have been meaning to share this with you guys, but you know how it is, you
get busy and then... It's just as well; use this community for feedback.

I don't want it to sound like it's all problems. Many family members have
shared great pictures and many of us are thrilled. Several cousins have seen
childhood pictures of their parents that they never saw before.

You guys are doing great work on something that really is important. You
should have raving fans; I hope you get them.

If you contact me offline, I'll share email addresses with my family members
that have had the most difficulty. Feedback from them may help you more than I
ever could.

~~~
jasonlbaptiste
Ed, once again many thanks. This is a gold mine. It's hard to seem thankful
enough via a text box, but I hope it shows :-).

I think our biggest problem is that we're giving it mediocre effort. We're on
that cusp of doing something great, but we keep treating it like this side
project. That means the really small details like the ones you mentioned get
overlooked or the smart viral loops get left out. I've always wanted to take
Ramamia to a higher level, but I think I get worried about the what-ifs/am i
passionate enough/ can it make money/etc aspect.

~~~
markbao
You're the one that keeps saying it's a side project. _Asshole._

;)

~~~
jasonlbaptiste
haha, I know im kind of being a pussy and doing it to cover my ass. You also
have like 4 bajillion other projects! It's more of a do I want to do this full
time for passion reasons? I'm pretty certain if I went balls to the wall on
the marketing+product feedback side, it could be a success.

 _Mark and I are comfortable enough with HN to have founder discussions out in
the open._

------
gridspy
You have a changing feature area on your front page. Please either add
next/prev buttons and an easy way to navigate it or break it out into normal
HTML. It currently changes faster than I can comfortably read.

Edit: Oh, you have navigation - but it is visually detached from the feature
area (looks attached to the area above) so I missed it.

~~~
slig
Agreed, it's too fast and confusing.

------
jmonegro
you might find <http://www.startups.com> useful for these types of questions.

~~~
gridspy
I find that <http://answers.onstartups.com/> has a more technical audience,
with better quality Qs and As

------
jasonlbaptiste
Here's one idea im just shooting out there for the hell of it. Seriously, it
might be absolutely retarded and just designate it as so with comments:
Microtransactions. Give people x amount of free videos and x amount of free
photo albums. After that, they pay for each one posted (something really
small).

~~~
dpcan
It's not all bad. You can buy "credits" and use them for whatever you want,
even send them to other family members so they can post on your family page
too without paying anything.

~~~
jasonlbaptiste
hmm, really really interesting. kind of the pay by the drink model. the
credits could be pooled for the entire family. eventually could be used for
things such as virtual gifts. give credits for incentives such as inviting
your family, sharing an item,etc. make credits purchasable in $5 packs and
give a few for free to start.

------
markbao
Clickable: <http://staging.ramamia.com>

~~~
ericd
Looks nice, who does your graphic design?

~~~
markbao
I did the graphic design.

------
djm
with regards to the decision you have to make about fremium/premium etc there
is one thing I think you need to consider that I can't see anybody else here
has mentioned.

If a whole family sign up to your site and like it enough to use it they will
probably become long term users. After all it would be a pain in the ass for
them to try and collectively move to another service.

With this in mind, if you go the premium route, it may be in your interests to
consider offering a more substantial sign-up discount - a 21 day free trial
wouldn't excite me to try out your product.

Good luck in any case and keep HN up to date with how you guys are doing :)

------
DTrejo
The Jones family name you use in your screenshots has some bad connotations.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keeping_up_with_the_Joneses>

