

Ask HN: Canadian looking for advice on working for a US startup without a degree - tothevalley

Hi HN,<p>I'm a Canadian software developer without any sort of degree.  I have been programming since I was 8 and never attended a university, instead choosing to start my career right out of high school.  I freelanced for two years before joining a Canadian startup where I worked for an additional 2.5 years.<p>I have been fairly successful up to this point, with a few widely used open source libraries and am being actively recruited by a number Canadian companies.<p>Ideally I'd like to join an early stage startup in one of the US hubs.  I don't seem to qualify for either TN status or an H1-b visa because I lack the degree.<p>I'd really appreciate any advice you may have.  Thanks!
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RBr
1) Are you sure you want to leave Canada? There are a TON of awesome startups
with a lot of opportunity in Canada. Maybe you just need to relocate to a hub
such as Vancouver, Calgary or Toronto? Also, did you know that the Eastern
provinces have some crazy tax and startup capital advantages for starting your
own tech / net related business?

2) Your best bet would be to gain employment by a company that has offices in
both the U.S. and Canada. Then, with the help of your company, you could
obtain a transfer visa:

[http://www.consular.canada.usembassy.gov/usa_visa.asp#transf...](http://www.consular.canada.usembassy.gov/usa_visa.asp#transfer)

Many companies with offices in both Canada and the U.S. aren't in the
"startup" category. You could either accept working for a larger company or
find a (somewhat more difficult) U.S. startup that is willing to start a
Canadian branch for you. Opening a U.S. company in a province such as Alberta
has a number of advantages beyond just employing someone as talented as you
are.

3) Some certs qualify you for a "specialized" degree. Since you didn't go the
education route, going the cert route might not be a bad idea if you make a
wrong turn anyway. Obtaining a high level cert (even quickly) may be an easy
way in.

<http://www.consular.canada.usembassy.gov/nafta.asp>

Specifically: "Computer Systems Analyst Baccalaureate or Licenciatura degree;
or Post-Secondary Diploma or Post Secondary Certificate and three years'
experience."

Note the Post Secondary Certificate in there.

4) Contract.

You can "contract" for a U.S. based company, work there for months at a time
if required and not put a full-time strain on the startup. Reliable, competent
off-site employees and "virtual offices" are the new black in startup life.

~~~
dotBen
_You can "contract" for a U.S. based company, work there for months at a time_

Not technically legal. Just saying.

~~~
pedalpete
Not technically illegal either. Depending on the set-up. Though the 'work for
months at a time' thing is suspicious. But I believe it depends on how the
contract is laid-out.

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kitcar
I am not an immigration lawyer, but one thing I've heard is you could setup a
corporation in Canada, and then sell consulting services to a US startup. That
way they don't have to deal with the fact that you're not a US Citizen for
payroll purposes, as they just pay you like any other vendor.

You can work remotely / travel to the US for periods of a few weeks at a time,
working out of their offices - sublet apartments from craigslist for a month
or two at a time, then return back to Canada. I believe there is a US visa you
need to get to do this, under the guise you are working for a foreign business
conducting biz in the US.

If the startup takes off, you will be integral enough to the process that they
will (hopefully) hire an immigration lawyer to figure out how to get you into
the country for longer periods of time and pay you directly. If it doesn't
take off, probably best that they didn't issue your VISA after all...

I know of a few people who got in from eastern europe to the US that way...
again, I am not a lawyer though, and therefore don't know if what these guys
did was legal or not, just repeating what I heard...

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faramarz
Go as a visitor for 6 months and maybe you'll find a wife? :P j/k

Have you already found a job? If you manage to get an offer and the company
really sees you as an asset, they may be willing to hire as a _consultant_ on
paper and not as the engineer/developer that you are. (probably best if you
personally know the execs/founders)

This essentially enables you to qualify for the TN status without a degree.
But you must demonstrate domain expertise and enough experience in the field
to sway the border officer.

Business Consultants and (Systems Analysts) are the two NAFTA approved jobs
for which you don't need a degree. There may be others, and the conditions may
be stricter than normal, so I recommend consulting a lawyer about this.

Hope someone with first hand experience chimes in for a better answer,
Goodluck!

~~~
dotBen
TN'er working in US here (also without degree but in a different category)

You need a degree to work as an engineer category for the TN unless you have a
Post Secondary Diploma or a Post Secondary Certificate + 3 years experience.

From my understanding if you qualify for this section you can be employed, you
don't need to be a consultant (which is actually more trick to then get).

See [http://www.nafta-sec-
alena.org/en/view.aspx?x=343&mtpiID...](http://www.nafta-sec-
alena.org/en/view.aspx?x=343&mtpiID=147#Ap1603.D.1) for the categories and
requirements (which despite not being a .gov domain is the official site for
this, as linked to by state.gov)

You need to get a lawyer, or preferably, the company you want to work for does
- applying for a visa is tricky and if you really mess up (say the wrong
thing, etc) they can stamp your passport with a "do not enter USA ever again"
stamp.

~~~
RBr
Lawyers are handy - just don't get scammed by one of the shops that specialize
in this if you go that route. I'd get a referral from a good accountant to see
a good immigration lawyer - those folks all play golf together.

As for the "do not enter USA ever again" stamp... they don't use that as often
as we fear they do. You could very easily be questioned more frequently when
you cross the boarder, but as long as customs / homeland security is sure that
you're not going to be taking a penny out of their economy, they'll just use
the "application denied" stamp rather then "do not import" stamp.

~~~
dotBen
_You could very easily be questioned more frequently when you cross the
boarder, but as long as customs / homeland security is sure that you're not
going to be taking a penny out of their economy, they'll just use the
"application denied" stamp rather then "do not import" stamp._

When you apply for a TN you do so in secondary checking (ie the interrogation
room out the back), where the questions are more firmer and saying something
like "I'm looking to move to the US" (a no-no on a non-immigrant visa like TN)
may get you that do not import stamp. It's worth being briefed on what to say
and what not to say, esp as they will try to trip you up (they do when I go,
I've renewed my TN many times).

You could get questioned very frequently every time you cross the border but
it's done so at the regular check point (they don't issue "do not import"
stamps on the spot at the regular check point/CBP desks). Secondary checking
is very different experience.

I agree with your point on getting a good lawyer - there are many lawyers that
will take your case on even if they know you have no chance of getting a visa
- especially as so few foreign employees are being employed now.

I can recommend mine to the OP/anyone else... he is based in SF and medium-
tiered price. My email is in my profile.

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vineet
One option, if you are good at what you do, is if you can get a 'treaty'
company to say they want you. I need to confirm with our lawyer, but if we
said that you would be helpful in building our company, all you would need to
do is pass an interview with the US consulate.

I am not sure if there is a list of treaty companies available, but there
should be a way of finding them.

~~~
tothevalley
Could you elaborate on what you mean by "treaty company"? I looked around but
all I could find were mentions of US treaty companies set up in Thailand. Is
there a similar thing for the US?

~~~
vineet
The background details are boring. But if you want to look into more about it
- lookup 'treaty visa'. A Canadian running a company under this visa, should
be able to get you in if he feels like you are an asset.

E-mail me if you want to talk: vineet at company-name.com

~~~
tothevalley
Ah that's very interesting. I'll look into it and may take you up on the
offer. Thanks!

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newy
drop me a line - euwyn at opzi.com

~~~
tothevalley
Done!

