
Tracing child abusers: Where was this picture taken? [video] - cskau
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/stories-47660347/tracing-child-abusers-where-was-this-picture-taken
======
bane
I was able to see a presentation about this topic one time by ICE. It tragic
in two senses:

1) The crimes themselves are absolutely intolerable to society.

2) The lack of serious resourcing the seriousness of this crime should
warrant.

Part of the presentation was specifically on identifying the location a
sequence of photos was taken in the hopes that it would narrow down the search
radius for the offender. The team that did the work were members of the ICE
HERO program -- one of the coolest veteran-to-civilian programs I've ever seen
[1][2]. The folks literally spent weeks "driving" around likely areas in
Google maps trying to identify the location. Because the photo was taken from
an angle that the car wouldn't have seen, they weren't able to use any
automation at all and it literally took a human's intuitive understanding of
3-D spaces to eventually figure it out.

However, what was really tough was that the HERO program only exists because
it offers an internship that costs very little to DHS -- they simply can't
afford a large group of full-time staff.

I urge anybody who can to petition to better fund anti-child abuse programs.

1 - [https://www.ice.gov/hero](https://www.ice.gov/hero)

2 - [http://www.herocorps.net/](http://www.herocorps.net/)

~~~
justasimpleman
How does the effectiveness of tracking down individual cases in this way
compare to e.g. improving the eoconomic incentives overall? Commercial child
abuse is mostly a result of deprived economic circumstances, in which people
see more benefit in selling their children rather than giving them the best
future possible, if I'm not mistaken.

I don't intend to spoil the enthusiasm here, but wouldn't supporting welfare
hence be a more effective measure than investing in fancy tech? That latter
only increases the deterrants which seem hard to increase any further to begin
with.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Economic incentives aren't going to encourage someone to not sell their child
for deplorable purposes; if you don't emotionally care for your child, money
isn't going to make you care. On the other hand, if you can use a non-profit
to pay terrible/uncaring/abusive parents to hand over their children
voluntarily (surrendering parental rights) and to get sterilized to prevent
the harm of any more children, that is a cause I would write checks to all day
long.

Disclaimer: I am a parent, and have fostered neglected children.

~~~
hopler
projectprevention.org pays serial child neglecters to get birth control

------
Snoozus
Here the direct link to the picture database
[https://www.europol.europa.eu/stopchildabuse](https://www.europol.europa.eu/stopchildabuse)

~~~
nothrabannosir
[https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/styles/eur...](https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/styles/europol_large/public/images/2018-2-g9.png?itok=SOJEIEuK)

That card looks like a pokemon card with a Google Chrome logo. Frustratingly
familiar.

~~~
probably_wrong
The thing on the back looks surprisingly similar to a package of "Yerba
Rosamonte"[1], which would place this picture in Argentina/Uruguay. But it's
too low res to say whether that's the case, or just pareidolia.

[1]
[https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=yerba%20rosamonte&t...](https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=yerba%20rosamonte&tbs=imgo:1)

~~~
acqq
It looks like something else once looking at the same picture with the
adjusted light (using Photoshop):

[https://ibb.co/1K1kZR1](https://ibb.co/1K1kZR1)

------
tyingq
Some of the techniques a group on 4chan used are interesting:
[https://www.ign.com/boards/threads/remember-when-4chan-
users...](https://www.ign.com/boards/threads/remember-when-4chan-users-got-a-
terrorist-training-camp-bombed-by-russia.455038424/)

~~~
samstave
Remember when 4chan weaponized agains Shia LeBouf's flag and were able to
determine the location of the ground flag based on the contrail evidence of
the flight path of what the camera could see. The camera was only pointing at
the sky, with the flag in the image. They were able to determine approx
latitude due to the live stream revealing the sunset - and then comparing the
paths of planes seen in the camera with flight data...

Then they drove to the location and took out the flag

Joe Rogan on it:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoBK1_ixiro](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoBK1_ixiro)

Some random on it:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-ABXvbMSc4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-ABXvbMSc4)

~~~
m348e912
I am not one to doubt the impressive capablity of a hoard of highly motivated
4chan autists, but it does become a lot less spectacular of a feat if you
consider LaBeouf was spotted in a Greenville, TN diner around the same time as
the flag hunt was underway (which was twitter knowledge). I thought their
triangulation efforts through driving around, beeping a car horn, and
listening if the sound came through on cam audio was the most impressive part
of their detective work.

------
Kadin
Looking at the swingset photo
([https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/styles/eur...](https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/styles/europol_large/public/images/333s.jpg?itok=qQWK_hlz))

That's an interesting design of swingset; not one I've seen before.

Unlike the bog-standard swingset in the US, which is typically all steel tube,
that one looks like it has extruded (aluminum?) verticals and then a tubular
horizontal weldment as the top piece. Further, the horizontal looks like it
was hot-dip galvanized as a finished unit. The verticals were painted before
assembly, not after, because of the bare-metal bolt heads. The fasteners are
presumably stainless, since I don't see any rust marks below them. It's got an
interesting bearing/bushing at the top of each chain, probably to make it not
squeak; that strikes me as a fairly luxe feature.

I couldn't find any similar ones searching around online, although my Google
searches don't turn up many European models at all (thanks, Google).

The photo doesn't go up enough to be sure, but it looks like the top bar is an
unbroken one-piece section. That would make it pretty bulky and awkward to
ship. (The vertical pieces look like they come apart into about 4 ft sections,
which means they were likely palletized at one point. Maybe the extrusions are
not done in the same place as the rest of the manufacturing..? That's
certainly plausible.)

If someone recognized the design/model, I think that would probably be a
significant clue towards the photo's location; at the very least, the
manufacturer would probably have a fairly good idea of where they normally
sell to.

~~~
Kadin
Replying to myself because I got an email from a user with a match:

[http://igra23.ru/katalog/karuseli-kacheli-
balansiry/kacheli-...](http://igra23.ru/katalog/karuseli-kacheli-
balansiry/kacheli-oblachko-dvojjnye-na-derevyannykh-stolbakh-s-podvesom-na-
cepi.html)

It has the swept-bend tubular corner reinforcements, the polyethylene (or some
other kind of plastic) panels on the upper corners, etc. The only difference I
can see between the product photo and the Europol one is that, in the Europol
photo, the top bar seems galvanized rather than painted. But that's the sort
of thing that could easily change as a product is marketed.

It appears the company is out of Krasnodar (Краснода́р), located in southern
Russia.

~~~
pvaldes
This is an exact fit. Great job

------
mattferderer
I wonder if people who use a popular photo sharing site like Google Photos
would be in favor of there photos with location meta data being used for a
project like this.

I think I would if I could trust that it was only being used for something
like this & not commercial advertising type projects.

------
anotheryou
This should be a subreddit. Reddit is pretty good for these things, they have
a big, global audience and a great comment system for such things.

e.g.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/whatisthisthing/](https://www.reddit.com/r/whatisthisthing/)
works great.

~~~
pavel_lishin
They also have a habit of mis-identifying people and hounding them down.

~~~
anotheryou
well this material seems luckily carefully selected and without I persons
visible. A found place is also pretty easy to verify.

~~~
pavel_lishin
Sure. But I think Pizzagate has shown us that there's enough weirdos out there
who'll show up to a place demanding answers.

And don't forget, people are strongly died to locations. If Reddit decides
that a particular photo is located at 287 FM 772, that's someone's house, and
a name can easily be associated with it. Nobody wants to receive a Google
alert that their name is suddenly popping up in /r/find-a-pedophile

------
14
What incentive could be added to have people view these photos on a regular
basis? I think facebook could be one answer with it's global reach. They could
do an official page or something and offer real discounts at partnering
restaurants or stores from around the world if you spend time each month
viewing all the pictures. Imagine the reach they could have. At the same time
I feel that there should not be a business of restaurants and the like selling
coupons on abuse photos but I think the greater good of finding these kids may
be there. The reason I add a type of payment is because it is my belief that
though people do mean well, without an incentive they are less likely to view
these images. Or perhaps if add companies put those kind of pictures on the
websites instead of ads I would disable the adblocker.

~~~
anigbrowl
What's wrong with money

------
pvaldes
Photo number 9. The box shows a picture of an Asteraceae that fits well with
Cichorium intybus, a vegetable cultured in temperate areas (from Europe
mainly), and the colours of the Romanian flag.

[https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/styles/eur...](https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/styles/europol_medium/public/images/2018-5-g28.png?itok=oMUT8Ms6)

over the green square, appears a whitish blur that could easily say Cicoarea
in a stylised way (or maybe is just another picture)

------
gonzo41
This is also a good article, not sure if it's been featured here before.
[https://www.bellingcat.com/resources/case-
studies/2018/11/08...](https://www.bellingcat.com/resources/case-
studies/2018/11/08/europols-asian-city-child-abuse-photographs-geolocated/)

------
pvaldes
Can't identify the background trees at this low resolution, but there is a
small Fabaceae tree in the photo that looks like either Robinia pseudoacacia
or Sophora. This trees have heavy seeds that do not go very far. Some bigger
trees from one of this species could probably be seen near this area. Maybe in
the streets (or in a garden).

[https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/styles/eur...](https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/styles/europol_medium/public/images/13s.jpg?itok=wm1V3Ktl)

Robinia is a fully hardy and widespread species that can be found in almost
all Europe and USA, USDA area 1a.

~~~
pvaldes
Just realized that is the same area as this second photo, so if is Asia
nothing of the former is appliable. The list of possible fabaceae trees is
much bigger then. There is a pinnate-leaved palm also, so in principle areas
colder than -12 could be excluded (USDA 8a).

[https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/styles/eur...](https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/styles/europol_medium/public/images/2018-6-c20.png?itok=-5CgP08Z)

~~~
pvaldes
Ok, I was looking at the medium size. At larger resolution the photo is more
interesting that it seems. Four different threes and something more. They
should examine it more carefully.

The big trunk in the background is from the same Fabaceae also. Senna could
show a similar bark and leaves. Senna siamea from Thailand for example looks
similar. There is a sapling of something that looks like a Psidium also and
maybe a Schefflera. All tentatively.

------
pvaldes
In this photo there is a small tree at rigth that is partially clipped.
Compound leaves with five leaflets. Probably Fraxinus. Fits well. Temperate
area in this case.

[https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/styles/eur...](https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/styles/europol_medium/public/images/2018-5-g13.png?itok=XpgbNRoj)

If is Fraxinus excelsior (probably) Europe. If Fraxinus pensylvannica: Eastern
half of USA or Argentina.

~~~
bobowzki
The writing on the backpack looks Cyrillic to me.

------
howard941
Andrew Sullivan used to run a contest doing something similar albeit less
serious and with remarkably good results

[http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/vfyw-
contest/](http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/vfyw-contest/)

------
JeanMarcS
If there can be a first sort done by AI and then human contribution to try to
narrow it better it might be helpfull.

Like « this picture seems to be located in this area/country » and then people
from the area could have a look.

I’m pretty sure people would like to help.

~~~
7952
It would be great if that was possible. But in the meantime human beings are
amazingly good at this kind of thing. Our brains are highly optimised for this
kind of work.

------
HNLurker2
Do not reverse search images on Google.

------
LifeLiverTransp
Should be solveable with a NN trained on Matching Google Streetview and the
images..

~~~
ekianjo
Google Street View is limited to what you can see from the street. It would
not work for several types of location.

~~~
giarc
Very true, but the article says there are 40 million images. Likely will work
for a non-zero portion of the images.

------
Macuyiko
Hopefully we'll come to a point soon where AI and deep learning can help out
in this space. I remember models being trained that could predict the country
based on a street view photo with a high degree of accuracy, which would be a
good first step. The next one would be to either match a top-down satellite
photo with a picture, or figure out a way to match street view photos based on
similarity.

Given that Google actually has the data as well as the skills and computing
power to help out Europol, I'd have hoped they'd be jumping at the opportunity
to do so. At the least it would make for great PR, but perhaps they're afraid
of the possible privacy issues and discussions as well (I can already see the
headlines: "Google knows the location of any yard appearing in a photo!").

In any case, it's telling how humans are so good at this stuff and picking up
on clues and patterns. It'll still take a while before machines are as good.

~~~
zenexer
That’s not really how any of this works—you can’t simply throw a bunch of
unrelated data at some algorithms and expect usable output. (There’s also no
such thing as “deep learning”.)

Law enforcement and related organizations already use machine learning quite a
bit, particularly for image enhancement. Yes, Google does have a lot of images
of various locations from a top-down perspective, but that isn’t helpful for
accurately determining a location from the images that Europol collects.

Also, keep in mind that Europol is only posting images here when all other
means of determining location and identity have been exhausted. The images are
usually indoors and don’t contain enough information for ML to be of any
significant use. You might be able to narrow it down to a probably country
based colors and design patterns, but that’s hardly sufficient and not solid
enough evidence to actually do anything.

~~~
areyousure
> There’s also no such thing as “deep learning”.

What do you mean by that?

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_learning](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_learning)

