
Outdoor Preschools - sillybilly
https://www.rei.com/blog/news/outdoor-preschool-trends
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KingMachiavelli
It'd be interesting to see if children raised with outdoor preschools had
better eyesight. There's a strong correlation between time spend indoors
during childhood and nearsightedness. [1]

[1]
[https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/scin.559183...](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/scin.5591830323)

~~~
war1025
I haven't looked into it enough to know how "out there" this idea is, but I
think I've read that there seems to be a correlation between lack of UV
exposure and myopia.

Glass blocks UV. Which means people are getting next to zero UV exposure
indoors, even if the room is brightly lit.

The past few years, we've been keeping out windows open basically from the
time it's warm enough in the spring to when it starts getting too cold in the
fall. We ran our AC for maybe a week total this summer.

Anyway, where I'm getting at with this is since our windows are open, we
should be getting significantly more UV exposure, even when indoors. I wonder
if the rise of air conditioning did a double hit to people's eyesight by both
1. Keeping them inside more often and 2. Leading to people closing their
windows, which blocks UV exposure.

Anyway, a though I had the other day.

~~~
dmurray
Most windows don't let in much more UV when open. Maybe if you have big
sliding doors or similar.

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IMAYousaf
Hi everyone.

This is a very concise (11:32) video that goes over some of the culture and
thinking around outdoor kindergartens.

I believe that it is quite informative:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jkiij9dJfcw&feature=youtu.be](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jkiij9dJfcw&feature=youtu.be)

I believe that the best part about these schools is that early on they
explicitly teach teamwork and understanding limits. It's quite shocking
culturally seeing kids whittling with sharp knives and climbing rather
precarious trees but it seems to work well.

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vailripper
My son goes to one of these. We moved him out of another (indoor) preschool.
He loves it - the kids seem to get along better, he's been more well behaved,
and it seems to foster his creativity. That said, he's also older now! But
we've had a great experience.

~~~
avip
Your experiment has #samples = 1 and no external variables control, yet I
absolutely believe the reported outcome.

~~~
youeseh
You're forgetting about all the other kids in the outdoor kindergarten systems
around the world. I'm sure he enrolled his son into it after learning about
their success.

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blang
We have outdoor preschools in Seattle, but because of how licensing works, my
family can't use them. Outdoor preschools can only run for 4 hours usually
9:30-1:30, instead of full day, which is really what you need if you have two
working parents.

~~~
hpratt4
Do you happen to know what the licensing problems are? My family is in exactly
the same boat; I'd love to be able to complain constructively to DYCF about
which of their rules is responsible for preventing us from using a program
like Fiddleheads.

~~~
blang
I think it's this:

[https://app.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.aspx?cite=110-300&full=tr...](https://app.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.aspx?cite=110-300&full=true#110-300-0145)

>(6) Licensed outdoor play areas must be enclosed with a fence or barrier that
is intended to prevent children from exiting and discourages climbing. If the
outdoor play area is enclosed by a barrier that is not a fence, the barrier
may be a wall constructed with brick, stone, or a similar material.

For some background a co-worker's wife works at one of the outdoor preschools
and said that in order to be full time you have to have a fence in play space
next to the indoor school.

~~~
vailripper
There is actually a pilot program to allow full day preschools in WA. Our son
goes to one of them, their class travels to parks outside of the school. More
info here: [https://www.dcyf.wa.gov/about/government-
community/advisory/...](https://www.dcyf.wa.gov/about/government-
community/advisory/opp)

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spodek
Beyond preschool, learn about Sudbury Valley School and other self-directed
learning.

I find it mind-blowing how much more we learn when outside mainstream
education, which constrains us.

I've compiled many videos and links on it, as well as some of my thoughts, in
this blog entry: [http://joshuaspodek.com/mind-blowing-educational-
practices](http://joshuaspodek.com/mind-blowing-educational-practices).

Peter Gray's book _Free to Learn_ is the most comprehensive resource
[http://www.freetolearnbook.com](http://www.freetolearnbook.com).

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madhadron
If you're interested, it's also worth looking at Erin Kenny's book "Forest
Kindergardens: The Cedarsong Way." She founded the first one in the Seattle
area out on Vashon Island and has been the model for the others that have
sprung up since then.

My wife couldn't find one on Bainbridge Island where we until recently lived,
so she just started an all weather outdoor group herself. People showed up in
the summer and fall. In the middle of winter it was often just her and our two
kids in full rain gear splashing around the beaches.

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JohnJamesRambo
This is such a completely fantastic idea. It would expose kids to exercise,
sunlight, allergens, and germs. All things scientific theories like the
hygiene hypothesis and vitamin d as a marker of outside exposure are telling
us are vital to making a healthy child.

~~~
JJMcJ
> sunlight

Skin cancer, much?

Maybe in Norway this makes sense.

For fair skinned people in lower latitudes, maybe not.

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JohnJamesRambo
[https://www.outsideonline.com/2380751/sunscreen-sun-
exposure...](https://www.outsideonline.com/2380751/sunscreen-sun-exposure-
skin-cancer-science)

I try to share this article as much as I can. It’s likely much of what we
think we know about sun exposure is very wrong.

~~~
smcg
Looks like bad advice for someone with fair skin and family cancer history
(me).

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ThomPete
My oldest kid was at a Danish outdoor pre-school. They wouldn't be in execpt
for taking nap. Other than that they were outside come rain or shine.

~~~
zwieback
I thought nordic kids especially napped outdoors:
[https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21537988](https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21537988)

~~~
ThomPete
When they are babies yes not later.

~~~
zwieback
ah right, that makes sense

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seltzered_
Another article I recently read was on North Country School in upstate NY:
[https://evolution-institute.org/a-school-camp-and-retreat-
ce...](https://evolution-institute.org/a-school-camp-and-retreat-center-
informed-by-evolutionary-science/)

This said, I wish there was more exploration beyond Northern Europe and North
America. Speaking just from anecdotes, in areas of the global south (India),
there's seemingly a huge drive for families (and thus school) be more oriented
around their kids developing skills for marketability. Not trying to assert
there's anything wrong with that given wealth inequality, though in thinking
of examples of the counter Manish Jain comes to mind:
[https://schoolingtheworld.org/](https://schoolingtheworld.org/)

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mips_avatar
I went to a Norwegian preschool. And it was almost an outdoor school. Everyday
we would go on long walks and activities in the woods. We would learn how to
have fun in the rain with buckets and puddles. That didn't mean there weren't
indoor activities, but we did a good mix.

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erichurkman
Related, Governors Island in NYC has a huge area called 'The Yard' [0] that's
full of.. random hunks of wood and metal, pallets, rope, random tires and
broken appliances. All for kids to play around in. It's just stuff a normal
kid in a big city wouldn't get exposed to.

[0] [https://govisland.com/things-to-
do/programs/playgroundnycs-t...](https://govisland.com/things-to-
do/programs/playgroundnycs-the-yard)

~~~
dsfyu404ed
Maybe you live in more upscale cities than me but that all looks like commonly
discarded stuff that some kids walking home from school would play with if
they came across it.

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taborj
We had outdoor school in the (I think it was) 6th grade when I was a kid. This
would have been early 90s. 4.5 days, slept in cabins. Parents came to visit on
just one of the days. It rained. It was muddy. We got cold. But we learned a
lot.

It was a good time.

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cloudytoday
cool idea. I think we have one here in San Francisco. I just wonder about
rain/snow (for some areas) and then naps..where do they take them? But in
general I think the kids (and adults) need more outdoor time

~~~
vailripper
There is a lot of gear involved... our son wears long underwear, wool socks,
proper rain jacket / pants...and we're in a relatively mild climate. I think
that's one of the benefits though - it teaches kids that crap weather doesn't
mean you can't go outside and play, you just need to be prepared.

As far as naps - our kiddo doesn't take a nap anymore, so it isn't an issue.
Younger classes typically get out earlier, so you could do a nap then. I'm not
sure there are any all day outdoor preschools....

~~~
seanmcdirmid
That is exactly what we would need for our son if we sent him to preschool in
southern China (maybe not the rain jacket) simply given the lack of indoor
heating (we will wait till he is older).

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matttproud
DACH[0] snores; it's had this for a long time:

Waldkrippe and Waldkindergarten

[0] -
[https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/DACH](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/DACH)

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ryanmarsh
I thought, this would be hell for most of the year where I live (because of
the weather). So I looked at the locations, California and the NE. Yep.

~~~
fyfy18
It's pretty common in Northern European countries too - even in winter. On a
sunny winters day when it's -20C it's perfectly comfortable with the right
clothing and footwear (which isn't expensive).

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linuxftw
I'm old enough to remember a time when both parents didn't work full time and
the other parents in the neighborhood helped watch each others children from
time to time.

It didn't cost much money, and the part time wages were plenty to cover a lot
of expenses. Unfortunately, the value of our money was destroyed by
politicians, and wages have been depressed for several decades due to economic
policies in place.

~~~
war1025
I hear this sentiment a lot, but as someone living the "one breadwinner, wife
and three kids" life, it seems completely doable on tech job wages.

You just have to adjust your lifestyle somewhat. People talk about how you
used to be able to live on much less money, but they forget all the added
conveniences people have.

For example, my Grandma stayed home with my Dad and his seven siblings. But
they also had an outhouse until he was in junior high. They also had a garden
and lots of DIY improvisation knowledge.

The way I like to think of my current family situation is that instead of
calling my wife a "homemaker" or something traditional like that, I say she's
"financially independent". We have enough money that she doesn't have to work.
So she doesn't. So what if I have to work. We're halfway to freedom.

~~~
linuxftw
The average tech wage today is comparable to everyone's average household
income in 1980, relative to median home price in the US. Compare the S&P 500
relative to median income and we're even worse off.

On one hand, working in the tech sector is not a bad place to be. On the other
hand, we're no better off than the average person in 1980, relative to their
peers. Minimum wage was $3.10 in 1980, it's just $7.25 today (federal). Seems
we've done everything we can to destroy domestic labor over the last 40 years.

~~~
war1025
Maybe because I graduated college / entered the workforce through the peak of
the recession, but I've found that I tend not to compare my living standard
with those I grew up in nor those that my parents grew up in.

Yes, I think we probably took several wrong turns along the way, but here is
where we are, and I find that I am much more content with things if I just
accept right now as my baseline. Compared to many (most?) of the people I
associate with, I'm doing pretty darn well.

~~~
linuxftw
I'm generally content with my position in life, but I'm not content with where
most people are.

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liveoneggs
waldorf does this; my daughter did not love the waldorf summer experience of
being outside all day, every day, even for lunch in July ;)

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zwieback
Sounds super appealing but also a little "things white people like". What to
do in inner cities or Kansas?

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war1025
Kansas has outdoors. Might not have forests, but there is still benefit from
being outside. I think they are called Forest Schools because they started in
Europe / Scandinavia, which are forested places. Doesn't seem like there is
any reason the concept couldn't be adapted to other climates.

~~~
madhadron
I think "forest school" is kind of a mistranslation of the German
"Waldkindergarten." "Wald" is strictly "forest" but idiomatically means the
great outdoors, the wilds. Kind of a similar confounding as the word for woman
and wife being the same.

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xwdv
This is nice if you live in a nice cool place with a magical shady forest full
of wonders, but in most places kids will be in sweltering heat with the sun
beating down on them all day putting them at risk for melanoma. I hated recess
because of this, I just did not see the allure of being outside.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Most towns have woodlands of some sort, don't they? I mean, globally. Sure
there are desserts ...

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Not to mention “living outside” is the norm in Southeast Asia (well, you
aren’t in a forest at least).

