
The Ketchup Conundrum (2004) - pepys
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2004/09/06/the-ketchup-conundrum
======
batbomb

       doomed to eat Heinz
    

There's worse things, like going to a nice restaurant for brunch and finding
they offer some organic ketchup (occasionally even Hunts) or worse... make
their own. Sir Kensingtons is okay, but not great.

Some people just want to dispute the fact that Heinz is, empirically, a great
product. In my opinion, Heinz might even be a special case of this. What I
mean by this is I'm not sure I've ever used Heinz somewhere where I thought
"you know, Sir Kensingtons would really be better in this situation".

French's mustard is good, but not as versatile. I'd easily prefer a sandwich
with Beaver over French's in most cases, but French's over any dijon for a hot
dog. For mayo, Hellmans is closer to the class Heinz is in, but I'm happy with
Kewpie in many cases over Hellmans, and a home-made aioli/mayo can bring
something extra to certain dishes. That being said, I'd rather take Kewpie
over Kraft Mayo and always over miracle whip.

Peanut butter is a little trickier. The major brands are all very good -
Skippy, Jif. Off brands can be good. I don't mind old fashioned peanut butter,
but it can't compare to the creaminess/texture of the big guys. It's also a
pain in the ass to stir it and putting it in the fridge as a hack for that is
a terrible workaround.

~~~
Pfhreak
I'll disagree. I find Heinz to be saccharine sweet to the point of
inedibility. That's a little hyperbolic, obviously, it's edible, I just
strongly prefer a ketchup that doesn't have the overwhelming flavor of sugar.

I do not enjoy Heinz's product, I prefer a ketchup with a flavor closer to
tomatoes -- a sharper, brighter, more earthy flavor.

~~~
Declanomous
That's almost the entire argument against putting ketchup on hot dogs. Hot
dogs are already pretty sweet, and ketchup just makes them sweet to the point
where every other flavor is masked.

I know it's probably overly judgmental, but I can't stand it when people put
ketchup on a steak. You might as well eat tofu, which has the benefit of being
cheaper, not killing an animal, and not insulting the person who cooked the
steak. I know there are some reasonable counter-arguments to this, but I would
feel personally insulted if someone put ketchup on a steak I made.

That being said, I could see a less-sweet ketchup actually being pretty good
on a sausage of some kind, probably a smoked polish or italian. Don't tell
anyone else from Chicago I said that though.

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zeveb
A good read, as with anything by Gladwell, but I have a few quibbles (as with
anything by Gladwell):

> There are five known fundamental tastes in the human palate: salty, sweet,
> sour, bitter, and umami.

I always hate when folks call savoury 'umami' instead. We already have a
perfectly good word in English for the taste; we don't need to add a new one!

> And so he turned to ketchup, because, alone among the condiments on the
> table, ketchup could deliver sweet and sour and salty and bitter and umami,
> all at once.

I'm pretty sure A1 & HP deliver much the same effect. Even Worcestershire
sauce does.

Finally, and most importantly: there's a much simpler reason for the failure
of World's Best Ketchup to take over the market: no-one is likely to trust a
product named 'World's Best' to actually _be_ the best. Grey Poupon seems to
come from France, with its name & packaging: one is tempted to believe that
it's an ancient brand, one which might well be excellent — or even the world's
best. But World's Best Ketchup is clearly new, and there's no particular
reason for me to believe it's actually all that good. It could have just been
invented by some team of accountants in a conference room at the Holiday Inn.

Never mind that Grey Poupon isn't actually French. Never mind that Jim Wigon
really seems to love his ketchup. The vast majority of folks don't know those
facts.

~~~
chasing
And I suspect if Heinz and World's Best switched marketing budgets that
somehow this article would suddenly be about how World's Best hits all the
right flavor notes and Heinz is "lower amplitude."

~~~
noxToken
Well if you're actually using blind taste tests, then none of that matters.
The point is that branding yourself as "World's Best" can negatively affect
your product due to psychology.

Two ketchup brands on a hot dog or sitting in a souffle container for dipping
fries doesn't fall victim to this. I don't know which brand is which, so I
cannot pre-judge the ketchup. If you place the bottles in my face, "World's
Best" preemtively makes me say, "'World's Best'? I doubt it." I've set
negative expectations for the ketchup before I have even had a taste.

There was a spot on NPR (I think the TED Radio Hour) that talked about taste
being linked to more than just the senses. Mood, lighting, atmosphere, and a
whole host of other things can affect taste. They went on to say that a $75
steak from a steak house tends to be better rated in taste than a $20 steak
from a normal restaurant for the reason listed above. The steaks can come from
the same cut, stored in the same location, prepared by the same person using
the same cookware, utensils and seasonings. The upscale steakhouse would have
a better ambiance, and the psychological preparation for eating a $75 steak
plays with your taste.

------
chasing
> “The difference between high and low amplitude is the difference between my
> son and a great pianist playing ‘Ode to Joy’ on the piano,” Chambers says.
> ... Pepperidge Farm shortbread cookies are considered to have high
> amplitude. So are Hellman’s mayonnaise and Sara Lee poundcake. [So are Coke
> and Pepsi.]

Ugh. Give me low-amplitude foods, then...

Also, sounds like Coke and Sara Lee poundcake might be more comparable to
"Happy Birthday" or "I Wanna Hold Your Hand:" bland and popular. "Ode to Joy"
performed by a great pianist is a specialized taste usually only experienced
by people who care about what they listen to.

~~~
M_Grey
>Ugh. Give me low-amplitude foods, then...

Exactly. Doritos and Mountain Dew thrive on this concept of "amplitude", and
they're palette annihilating crap for which "moderation" is so far removed
from typical consumption that it hardly even enters into the model. Amplitude
is at its core, a trick on the senses, and once you're out of your
teens/twenties it's not a very nice one.

I would also point out the difference between traditional sources of
"amplitude" (mayo is a good example mentioned in the article, fish sauces
would be another) are almost _always_ condiments, sauces, or soup bases. There
is a difference between the expectation that you use some mayo on your
sandwich, and the expectation that you should drink soda.

~~~
chasing
I say for maximum amplitude you should do both: Put Hellman’s mayonnaise in
your Pepsi. Then dip your Sara Lee poundcake in it. And cover that in Heinz
ketchup. Maximum amplitude EXTREME BAJA BLAST #YOLO.

~~~
M_Grey
Oh... you joke, but I have a good friend who has some interesting issues
(totally worth adapting to them, he's a great guy) especially around foods and
tastes and smells. He figured out that you can buy flavoring from those big
labs out in New Jersey, and they make _everything_.

He has a different mouthwash for each day of the week, and one of them is
Bermuda grass. To his credit, it _really_ tastes specifically like fresh
Bermuda grass. So... your idea might not be unattainable, and IIRC soda is one
of the forms those companies often experiment in.

YOLO indeed.

------
ddoran
Interesting timing. This article was referred to by a founder of Sir
Kensington's ketchup (subsequently condiment) company in an interview on NPR
founders series "From Scratch" [1] on Mar 27, 17. He mentioned that this
helped confirm their belief that there could be a future in their
product/start-up. It was an interesting interview. As is so often the case,
they didn't have a clue what they were doing when they started-up, or even
that they were "starting up". Recommended.

[1] [http://www.npr.org/2017/03/27/521698574/brendan-kennedy-
co-f...](http://www.npr.org/2017/03/27/521698574/brendan-kennedy-co-founder-
of-privateer)

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paulpauper
how about A1 sauce and barbecue sauce.. aren't those variants of ketchup

~~~
unprepare
>barbecue sauce.. aren't those variants of ketchup

Dont go around the carolinas saying something like that! You are likely
thinking of Memphis style barbecue sauce, which is often katchup based, where
the carolinas use a vinegar based sauce.[1]

I'm not sure if i would call 2 cups of vinegar and some seasoning[2] ketchup

[1][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbecue_sauce#Variations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbecue_sauce#Variations)

[2][http://allrecipes.com/recipe/58486/eastern-north-carolina-
bb...](http://allrecipes.com/recipe/58486/eastern-north-carolina-bbq-sauce/)

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BTurkE
I'd argue that a new ketchup did come along eventually ... Sriracha

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JoeAltmaier
Funny - ketchup in the 1800's could be made from fish, nuts, mushrooms, pretty
much anything savory. Tomato somehow became the only sauce we now call
'ketchup' out of dozens of candidates.

The 'world's best ketchup' IMHO is mushroom-based.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
e.g.
[http://www.thenibble.com/reviews/main/condiments/ketchup/ket...](http://www.thenibble.com/reviews/main/condiments/ketchup/ketchup-
roundup2.asp)

