
App Store: Sentence first — verdict afterwards - bensummers
http://shiftyjelly.wordpress.com/2010/06/01/sentence-first-verdict-afterwards/
======
jasonlotito
I'd like to say I feel bad for the developers, but I can't. This isn't
anything new. Many of us have been saying this for some time now. This isn't
any different then the Bikini App situation. Even the article mentions eating
the author's own words. What they fail to realize is that Apple's T&C are
changeable. They are Apple's, not yours, and they can be whatever they want
with no regard for your app.

As a user, this is bad. I don't want to buy an app because I can't rely on it.
If Apple should remove it in the future, I lose the functionality I've come to
rely on. As a user, I'm not in control of the applications I install. Apple
is. This means if Apple suddenly changes it's mind, I lose the application and
whatever data it supports.

This is not good for me as a user, and has influenced my buying habits.

~~~
vegashacker
I have heard that Apple can actually turn off particular users' apps on their
devices, but this isn't necessarily the case. I bought NetShare (a tethering
app) and it was later pulled from the store, but it never disappeared from my
phone. (Now I never actually got it working, but that's beside the point.)

So I would say this is only bad for the user in the sense that they might not
be able to have all the cool apps they want because (a) they may be pulled
before they can purchase them or (b) they may never be developed because it's
too risky to make them with Apple's fickle review policies.

~~~
logic
They've never actually used their remote "kill switch" for any apps; if an app
is simply removed for a change in policy or after-the-fact enforcement,
deployed apps have remained.

However, there is most definitely a remotely-controlled kill switch for apps.
The URL containing that list is here:

<https://iphone-services.apple.com/clbl/unauthorizedApps>

------
martythemaniak
" There is no alternative platform, despite what others may say about Android,
it’s immature and their app store(s) are a wild west nightmare."

Silly Apple fanboy. He's whining that there's no approval on the Android
market in a blog post dedicated to complaining about the approval in the App
Store.

I also wonder what "immature" is. Probably another way of saying "I don't know
anything but I don't like it, so I'll make some stuff up"

~~~
megablast
Unfortunately, Google does not allow Australian developers to sell apps in the
appstore. It has always been like this, and we have not heard anything on this
issue from google.

That is why it is immature. If I can't sell apps, then what good is it to
someone trying to run a business? Some people aren't willing to stoop to
selling ads, and ruining the experience.

~~~
petercooper
If Android's as "open" as people keep saying it is, is it possible for you to
sell Android apps from your own site and let users download and install them
without using an app store? I'd expect this to be possible if it's a truly
open platform.

~~~
weaksauce
It is possible to do that but the discovery mechanism and billing that you get
through the app store is much better. To install software from another source
on my g1 it was a pain. I cannot imagine anyone willing to risk any mony with
a business if that is the only way I can deliver the software.

------
not_an_alien
This is pretty emblematic of all the Apple apologists out there: stating that
everything is fine for everybody, just because it's fine for them.

Until they fall into the hole themselves.

~~~
josefresco
I don't think this type of 'apologist' is unique to Apple. You could in a
general way say "Everyone is okay with X until..." for just about anything.

~~~
not_an_alien
Not unique, but certainly extremely common. Go check the comments on the page
and see for yourself; plenty of comments there saying it looks "widgety" so
Apple was right to ban it (even though there has never been anything on the
agreement about "widgety" applications). I'd bet this guy would be one of them
writing in defense of Apple, had it not been his application the affected one.
As long as those people have an excuse, no matter how inane it is, they're
gonna stick to it; and I'm seeing more from the Apple camp than any other
fanboy camp I've seen before.

I hope this causes more people to look at their own attitude towards Apple and
the kind of future it's buying them.

------
mortenjorck
There's a right way Apple could have done this.

1\. Just like with the infamous 3.3.1, announce that there will be changes
coming to the developer agreement that ban "widget desktop" apps, and that
apps of that variety will no longer be approved after July 1, 2010.

2\. _Grandfather in_ existing widget apps and make it clear to developers that
they will only be able to make maintenance updates to their software and that
no significant new versions will be approved.

I've actually bought Jobs' "sacrifice for the future of the platform" politic
up to a point, and gradually phasing out approval for a type of app fits into
that.

Sniping your developers does _not_ fit into that.

~~~
josefresco
Your second suggestion is still pretty evil. Imagine being a moderately
successful app developer and having Apple tell you that you've released your
last version and your app is essentially 'frozen in time' and your only option
is to release maintenance fixes (at your cost yay!). Why would I maintain
software for users whom I'll never be able to sell a future version or upgrade
to?

~~~
pavel_lishin
How is that worse than having Apple tell you that they're pulling your app
altogether?

~~~
mechanical_fish
Because suddenly dropping support for an app reflects badly on you and your
brand. But supporting something at a loss is even worse -- it has a financial
cost, and it has an even larger opportunity cost. It's many businesspeople's
worst nightmare.

But if Apple _orders_ the abrupt discontinuation of your product you have a
face-saving way to wash your hands of the affair. It's Apple's fault! Don't
forget to make a big public show of how Apple _made_ you drop the product -
and not by degrees, but cold-turkey.

~~~
jonknee
Apple could put a badge on the App Store listing saying that it has been
discontinued, etc. It would only show up for current users anyway and right
now you have no way to communicate with your users about what happened (you
don't even get to know who they are to contact them after Apple pulls you).

------
zweben
I suspect that this new unwritten policy is to prepare for the introduction of
widgets in iPhone OS 4.0. That would explain why they want to get rid of
widget-like apps, why they would try to keep it low-key, plus the timing fits.
That the app store reviewer said that Apple 'doesn't like' widgets anymore is
probably meaningless; I doubt he knows about Apple HQ's plans or motivations
any more than this developer.

~~~
mortenjorck
Fine, then. Announce changes to the developer agreement, and stop approving
widget apps. But don't suddenly _pull_ existing widget apps from the store as
if they've suddenly become dangerous to users!

That's not preserving the user experience or maintaining the flexibility of
the platform. That's _madness._

~~~
jstevens85
> But don't suddenly pull existing widget apps from the store as if they've
> suddenly become dangerous to users!

That hasn't happened. This guys app is still available. You can buy it
[here](<http://itunes.apple.com/au/app/tennis-stats/id364532249?mt=8>). What
Apple is doing is holding back approval for updates and new apps.

------
mcantelon
>despite what others may say about Android, it’s immature and their app
store(s) are a wild west nightmare.

Hardly a "nightmare"... User ratings and reviews give me a sense of whether an
app is quality and if I don't like an Android app, I can get an instant
refund.

~~~
moultano
I wish he'd elaborate on that in a future post. Even if his reasons turn out
to be idiotic, it's still an important thing to understand why developers like
him are hesitant to move to the platform.

~~~
pigbucket
From the comments: "I was speaking as a developer, not a consumer. As a
consumer the Android marketplace might be great. As a developer Google doesn’t
even allow Australian Developers to sell paid apps, so yes, it ain’t no
alternative"

------
goodside
"[The App Store is] a platform that can change at any time cutting you off and
kicking you out, with no course of action but to whine on some no-name blog.
There is no alternative platform, despite what others may say about Android,
it’s immature and their app store(s) are a wild west nightmare."

These aren't unrelated.

~~~
thwarted
It's interesting that the author took that blog post to describe the exact
opposite. Apple is treating the developers and users like they are immature,
with the "because I said so" and inexplicable nondetailed explanations
treating everyone with kid gloves. Even Jobs' response sounds like something a
parent would say when a kid keeps asking "why?" continuously.

Then there is the "wildwest" of the Android market, where you have to watch
out for yourself because anyone can do whatever they want and no one is
looking over your shoulder and telling you what to do. That sounds like more a
more mature environment to me.

~~~
ROFISH
I think you're confusing "mature", treating people like responsible adults,
and "mature", a market that has fully expanded and is not growing. If the
author from Australia cannot sell an app, than the Android Market is an
immature economic market.

The App Store is both mature and immature, and the Android Market is both
mature and immature at the same time.

~~~
thwarted
I wasn't confusing them at all, I know exactly what the author meant and I
purposely chose the other definition. There's a lot of whining coming from
what amounts to Apple fanbois on this issue, when the right thing to do is
vote with your dollars and your time. I have a lot more respect for the
developer who blogs about how they are moving to another platform and actually
_does it_ than one who complains about having hooked their wagon to the wrong
star. It's interesting that people like this choose the platform where
everything is decided for you (users and developers) rather than helping to
make another platform that provides them more freedom to be more finished and
polished. They'll use the excuse that they just want to get things done and
don't want to be bothered with the lower level details needed to make their
app look good/attractive/functional/whathaveyou -- 1) then why bother
programming at all, 2) good luck differentiating your app (remove the widgets
so your picture frame app follows the new guidelines, now your app duplicates
Apple's functionality) when you can't go beyond the preconceived ideas of how
apps should operate.

That being said, I'm not sure the author would want a mature market that has
"fully expanded and is not growing" anyway. This seriously limits the growth
potential. Who's developing for WebOS? By your definition the WebOS market has
matured, has expanded and is not growing. However, both the iPhone and Android
ecosystems continue to grow, so then neither have "matured".

------
tomjen3
So Apple isn't evil, until they hit me?

Classy, very classy.

------
bshep
1\. change the app a little, give it a new name

2\. resubmit

3\. if denied, go to 1. otherwise go to 4.

4\. profit

Actually after writing this I have a thought, I wonder what is the
cost/benefit analysis of buying several developer accounts and submitting your
app ( under different names ) and just use the one that gets approved first.

~~~
CoryMathews
I would assume you would be banned if/when they figure it out.

~~~
bshep
I guess you could get banned, but there are so many 'clone' apps out there it
would be kinda hard for them to find out.

I was just wondering if it would be cost effective, since the rules seem to be
arbitrary you might get more lenient reviewers and get through more often with
more accts.

~~~
boucher
The process definitely has a lot of randomness, but this is a lot harder to do
in practice then you think. Specifically, because you supply bank account
information with every account, so now you're also creating several bank
accounts. And there are a lot of other factors that would make it a major
nuisance.

~~~
bshep
Yeah opening several bank account would be a huge nuisance.

Oh well just a thought.

------
lylejohnson
MyFrame looks awfully similar to PhotoFramePlus
([http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/photoframeplus/id365563397?mt...](http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/photoframeplus/id365563397?mt=8)),
an app I read about just this morning and was considering purchasing. Now I'm
wondering if PFP is next up on the chopping block (although it's not so
"widgety" as MyFrame is).

What happens when Apple kills an app that you've purchased? Does it get
removed from your iPad the next time you sync (a la Amazon.com and the "1984"
fiasco)? If it does get removed, do you get a refund?

~~~
protomyth
I have a couple of the wifi apps and they don't get removed from the iPad /
iPhone. The problem is that you get no more updates for OS changes.

------
pavel_lishin
So, what exactly determines whether something is a widget or not?

~~~
protomyth
The quote is "We are not allowing apps that create their own desktops". So, It
might be safe if your app didn't display all the system indicators that the
iPad normally shows on the desktop (battery, signal, time).

I am at a real loss on this one. It would seem to indicate something coming,
but it just seems odd.

------
donaq
For those who take issue with the author's claim that Android is immature,
please read this comment first.

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1397398>

Disclaimer: I am an Android user and I love it as a consumer. As a developer
not in the list of 'blessed' countries, it stinks.

------
jonknee
What's their issue with desktop type apps? It looks quite nice actually, I
could see enjoying the iPad in a stand next to my computer with beautiful
photos and passive information displayed. I guess I'll have to make my own
with Javascript.

------
dave1619
Wow, this is sad especially since the author wrote a post defending Apple a
month prior. Apple desperately needs reform in their developer relations.

1\. Apple should replace whoever is in charge of developer relations.

2\. Apple should open up a 1-800 developer hotline for any problems.

3\. Apple needs to be more clear about app approval and rejection policies,
and should give updates if there are any changes of apps they are rejecting.

4\. Apple should be more in dialogue with developers.

~~~
pornel
None of these will help if "we're adding a desktop, get rid of all desktop
apps" order comes from the top, and that's not a single mistake, that's a
strategy.

------
omaranto
I think this guy winds up sounding like a self-centred jerk: in that earlier
post he mentions he basically says "all that stuff other developers have
complained can't be that bad becase it hasn't happened to me", like he doesn't
believe them, and now it happens to him and suddenly he agrees with everyone
else's complaints... Sheesh.

------
jlgosse
I don't understand this. The author goes on about how they don't know what's
wrong with the app, but then goes on to quote herself (from an email to
Apple):

"Our app is a beautiful photo frame with a few nice things you can put over
your photos."

There's her problem. I'm assuming the app is a full screen digital picture
frame app, and then you can put their special widgets on top of it. The only
thing wrong is she said "a few nice things" instead of "widgets".

It's her own fault the app got rejected.

EDIT: Not sure why I'm being down voted for this, but basically I'm saying
that Apple was quite clear about what the issue was, and it shouldn't be
difficult for her to understand this. When they update the terms of the
contract, I'm sure it'll make more sense. Updating contracts isn't as simple
as adding in one sentence - things take time.

~~~
jbrennan
The real problem is the App Store Guidelines make no mention of "no
widget/desktop apps". And initially, the application was approved. Then, Apple
changed their minds (without updating the guidelines or providing any route to
fix the problem) and suddenly this app removed on them.

It would be like if drinking Coca Cola suddenly became illegal to drink, but
the laws were not updated to let citizens know. So you're on a hot summer's
day, drinking your cool refreshing Coke like you always do, suddenly you're
arrested and the cop won't even explain why (but he says he thought your Coke
looked especially delicious). It's a little bit outrageous.

~~~
jlgosse
I realize it wasn't listed in the rules, but when Apple comes knocking on your
door and gives you a reason for the rejection, and blatantly tells you "NO
WIDGETS!", it shouldn't be hard to realize that the damn "nice things you can
put on your photos" are what have to be removed.

~~~
jamesbritt
It's more like pg suddenly deleting your comments here, telling you, "No
obsequious comments", leaving you wondering just what how that applies to
_your_ comments.

------
10ren
So Apple is being unfair, but there's no alternative?

Sounds like a good investment, according to Scott Adams
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1383843>

------
itistoday
I love this little snarky response to that post:

    
    
      "THEY CAME FIRST for the phone app developers,
      and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a phone app developer.
      THEN THEY CAME for the flash developer,
      and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a flash developer.
      THEN THEY CAME for the desktop style app developers,
      and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a desktop style app developer.
      THEN THEY CAME for me
      and by that time no one was left to speak up."
      Yep Godwin was right : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
      Neil Ellis said this on June 1, 2010 at 11:01 pm

~~~
jokermatt999
You know, despite the fact that that poem is about the Nazis, it does have a
point beyond that. I've mostly seen it referenced as "be aware of these kind
of issues, it could be you next", rather than "<issue> is just like what the
Nazis did!" To say that this is a case of Godwin's law misses the point: it is
a good idea to be active in calling out injustice even if you are not
personally affected, because one day you could be. It does not always warrant
the gravitas of comparing it to the Holocaust, but the poem itself is a nice
succinct illustration of the idea that preventing injustice against others is
a wise idea.

Also, calling Godwin's law on a legitimate comparison is just as bad as what
Hitler did. :-P

~~~
itistoday
I certainly agree with you, and just to note, even though he puts it in
quotes, he wasn't quoting any part of the original post, it was mostly his own
invention (a modification of the original:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...>)

------
jancona
Another reminder that IPhone developers are all sharecroppers:
<http://goo.gl/HPAp>

~~~
xurble2
By that definition, so are Android developers.

Firstly, the platform vendor - Google - can and does ship competing products
for free (turn by turn navigation anyone?).

Secondly even though Android is free you still rely on the manufacturers to
ship it on actual phones. They could all jump ship for Windows Phone 7 leaving
you with no platform (go with it, it's a thought expermient).

I understand that this is a 7 year old article and that Tim Bray has undergone
a road to Damascus conversion to Android Apps over the web, but even if you
accept his original conclusion that you are only not a sharecropper if you run
your own web stack, it doesn't really afford you much extra security. Google
could come along and release a competitor to your product and give it away for
free.

In summary: we're almost all sharecroppers because the definition is so wide
and even those who aren't face a similarly large but different risk meaning
that being a sharecropper isn't necessarily much worse, if worse at all.

Dumb app store rejections still suck mightily though :)

~~~
martythemaniak
By that definition so is Windows. And OS X. And any computing platform in the
history of the world.

MS can release a free competitor on Windows and Apple can release a free
competitor on OS X. Nevertheless, these are pretty solid platforms and no one
has ever suggested developers are sharecroppers. Due to its nature, Google is
far less in charge of Android than MS is of Windows or Apple of OS X.

If you stretch a definition enough, it looses it's meaning.

~~~
gbhn
From the linked article: "If you’re developing software for the Windows
platform, yes [you are a sharecropper]. Or for the Apple platform"

