
Apple and Samsung fined for deliberately slowing down phones - charlysl
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/oct/24/apple-samsung-fined-for-slowing-down-phones
======
kodablah
> Samsung told owners of its Galaxy Note 4 phone to install a new version of
> Google’s Android operating system intended for the more recent Galaxy Note
> 7, but which rendered the old model sluggish. Likewise, Apple told iPhone 6
> owners to install an operating system designed for the iPhone 7, leading to
> problems for owners of the older mode

A bit of a scary precedent. The 5m fine on Apple for intentionally reducing
resource usage to such a large extent without notification seems kinda
reasonable. But the 5m fine for both Apple and Samsung for their updates
causing slowdown on older devices is a different issue.

If I were a company fearing that suggesting an OS upgrade for an older phone
would cause slowdown on that older phone, I am now incentivized to not suggest
that update. We might want companies to support old OSs forever or stop adding
resource-intensive features or feature gate them or whatever. But short of
legislating that specifically, all this does is make old phones even more of a
liability than they already were.

~~~
freehunter
Yeah, you really have three options now. Either (1) never introduce features
that require more processing power but newer phones are capable of handling,
(2) have those new features but lock older phones out of being able to use
them, or (3), stop supporting older phones with your updates.

The problem with (1) is now you've completely stagnated the market, and if
your competitors choose either of the other options you're left lagging behind
and you lose sales.

The problem with (2) is now customers of older phones will be upset that they
didn't get the full upgrade for reasons they don't understand. The iPhone 4S
and Siri or the iPhone X and Animoji show the reaction you should expect.

The problem with (3) is now you have planned obsolescence and old phones just
become throw-away leading to an ecological disaster.

None of these are good options.

~~~
tomatotomato37
Where's (4) Don't write slow software? Modern phone's have better specs than
2000-era PCs with software that needs to do less; they shouldn't be having
these performance problems in the first place

~~~
kodablah
> Where's (4) Don't write slow software?

Says who, the government? We are talking about court-imposed fines here, not
consumer wishes. Do we want a literal slow-software police?

~~~
Darthy
> Do we want a literal slow-software police?

This court case shows that we kinda now already have one.

The phones from 5 years ago already had amazing processors with billions of
cycles per second. They can probably do nearly everything.

But you know us software engineers: "make it faster till it runs wells on my
test kit, then oh well ship it!"

I think this ruling is a nudge into a better way. Yes deplay updates for more
than 2 years, but don't stop optimizing new stuff when the latest phone can
run it pretty well - keep optimizing until devices from the last 5 years run
it very well.

~~~
geezerjay
> This court case shows that we kinda now already have one.

That's patently wrong. The point of the fine was not that the phones were
noticeably slower after the upgrade. The point of the fine was that the
slowness was motivated as a way of inducing forced obsolescence. The
manufacturers forced the updates with no rollback mechanism to render phones
unusable and thus force their users to purchase replacements. If users could
roll back the changes then the manufacturers wouldnt be fined.

------
lathiat
While in fairness I haven't read the actual case and maybe I am mising some
real facts; From the Apple Side, this is stupid. Call me an anti conspiracy
theorist but I doubt one bit Apple intends this behaviour in any way.

The original law this is under to intentionally "shorten the life" in order to
promote sales is going to have been written for a totally different case. i.e.
intentionally having devices be disposable. Right?

If anything, Apple is the opposite. They consistently provide both security
and feature updates for devices several years longer than the majority of
competitors. You can see this from
[http://iossupportmatrix.com/](http://iossupportmatrix.com/) (there are other
source) - the majority of the cases you have 5 years of iOS support - 4 years
after the initial release. Most competitor devices barely update things after
2 years even for security let alone features.

The cynic in us might assume that's why the spent time intentionally making
iOS 12 _faster_ on older devices - I'd like to think they decided to do that
anyway. But either way while that is a great, this ruling seems crazy to me.

~~~
Illniyar
Not updating the os does not make a phone work less well, it simply prevents
you from using new features, which is fine. What apple did worsened the
product.

The reasons behind it or other efforts the company make to improve older
models is irrelevent to the case since the law deals with incidents, otherwise
any nefarious action can be excused with good intentions.

~~~
solomatov
>Not updating the os does not make a phone work less well, it simply prevents
you from using new features, which is fine. What apple did worsened the
product.

These updates often contain security fixes. You risk by not updating on time.

~~~
sangnoir
> These updates often contain security fixes. You risk by not updating on
> time.

Maybe they ought to unbundle security fixes from feature-upgrades. It's not a
technical hurdle, it's a cultural one.

~~~
wafflesraccoon
Most of the time code does not fit into neat little boxes like that, in my
professional experience thing are far more gray that just bugfixes and feature
tickets.

~~~
sangnoir
In my professional experience, the correct solution is to give someone (or
people) the authority to make the call between "security fix" and feature.
Choosing to lump everything in the "feature" bucket is, as I said, cultural.

On the technical side, release branches have been existed since forever -
Microsoft has been doing this for decades instead of forcing upgrades to the
latest windows/office version.

~~~
jkrems
Yes, and the result is people using old software on those old OS versions
which... well, have blatant security issues. Apple shipping minimal security
fixes to old OS versions has ripple effects that are really unfortunate and
expecting every small app developer to support 5 major versions of the OS
feature matrix isn't practical.

~~~
jake_the_third
> Apple shipping minimal security fixes to old OS versions has ripple effects
> that are really unfortunate and expecting every small app developer to
> support 5 major versions of the OS feature matrix isn't practical.

I think this is a case where Apple has to make a choice between their
developers' convenience or their users' UX. I personally think developers
should cater to multiple versions just like any other platform (targeting
Android APIs, Windows releases, kernel versions).

Apple developers aren't special snowflakes. They can handle what other
developers have been doing for as long as programmable computers existed.

~~~
dwaite
They have made a decision for the User's UX - the user does not get a choice
of installing 10.4.7, 11.3.2, or 12.0.1 - they just get the choice to install
the latest OS their hardware supports.

~~~
jake_the_third
I wouldn't count degrading users' experience when using their previously-
normal phones a decision for User UX.

------
nathan_long
> It is a crime under French law to intentionally shorten the life of any
> product in order to promote sales. The French consumer protection agency has
> the power to fine up to 5% of annual turnover or impose a jail term.

Nice law.

~~~
megaman8
normally i'm against heavy handed government, but in the case of cell phones
and other electronic devices being slowed down by companies/made unusable I am
greatly in favor of this!

~~~
Illniyar
Why? Seems like a perfect thing for "market forces" to decide - if people
don't like what apple are doing they should buy something else or downgrade,
there are many alternatives

~~~
nathan_long
> Seems like a perfect thing for "market forces" to decide

I'm not sure about that. Consumers can easily tell which phone is less
expensive, which one has more storage, etc. It is much harder to know, much
less decide based on, which ones will last a long time. Especially since by
the time we can confidently say "these last 5 years", you can't buy that model
anymore.

This is a problem with nearly anything more complex than a kitchen knife.

~~~
AzMoo_
I think you are underestimating kitchen knives tbh.

------
hutattedonmyarm
> Apple was fined an additional €5m for failing to give customers clear
> information about “essential” characteristics of lithium batteries,
> including their average life expectancy, how to maintain them or eventually
> replace them in the firm’s iPhones.

Huh, so this[0] doesn't count? It provides an expected lifespan (80%
performance after 500 cycles) and info on how to maintain them

[0] [https://www.apple.com/batteries/](https://www.apple.com/batteries/)

~~~
simion314
Apple tried to avoid having people ask for battery replacement by hiding the
issue. I am also expecting that the battery life will decrease not that it
will not be able to keep the phone running.

~~~
scarface74
Assuming that the battery performed well for the first year while it was still
under warranty, why wouldn't Apple want customers to ask for a new battery?
They would replace the battery at a profit and get them into the Apple Store
where they could try to upsell them on a new phone.

~~~
cma
Because it would be easier to upsell them when they came to the store with
getting a new phone in mind due to theirs being mysteriously slow.

~~~
scarface74
Wouldn’t it be easier just not to upgrade older phones and not allow phones
running older OS’s to download the last compatible version of an app?

Around the time of iOS 7, Apple started letting older versions of iOS download
older version of apps that were compatible. Even today you can take a first
gen iPad running iOS 5 and download apps that have since been upgraded but
where there is an older version available.

I reset my old iPad 1 about two years ago and redownloaded Netflix, Hulu,
Spotify etc. They all still work.

------
wyldfire
Gee, I wonder if this is really deliberate/by design. Apple and Samsung seem
to be legitimately committed to delivering high performance products. And it's
great that they're providing software updates -- imagine the flip side, that
would be planned obsolescence for sure.

I've worked at places that do performance regression tests and there's usually
some small threshold that's tolerated (<1% or something, let's say). The
cumulative effect of these might be enough to have significant impact.

But another problem is that they're probably doing more target testing on the
new designs than the old designs and they might not notice/care enough about
the impact of features on old targets' performance. If they're not maintaining
independent software branches for the ease of delivering updates, then they
risk introducing performance regressions on old targets.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
They could easily release full details of their development process to
demonstrate their good faith to their customers.

------
wycy
Recent iOS updates turned off the throttling of phones with old batteries.
Apple initially said this throttling was necessary to prevent unexpected
shutdowns of older phones. Now that the throttling is gone, have we seen a
rash of unexpected shutdowns?

I haven't heard of this happening, which leads me to believe the excuse was bs
in the first place.

EDIT: To be clear, I know that iPhones have always been known to unexpectedly
shut down. Throttling performance was ostensibly meant to prevent these
unexpected shutdowns. My question is whether or not the incidence of
unexpected shutdowns increased once Apple lifted the throttle.

~~~
overcyn
Heres a 31 page macrumors thread on it.

[https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/iphone-6s-turning-
off-a...](https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/iphone-6s-turning-off-
at-10-20.1954530/)

[https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/4vne2w/does_anyone_e...](https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/4vne2w/does_anyone_elses_iphone_randomly_die_at_around_20/)

And Apple cut the price of battery replacement from $79 -> $29 in response to
it.

[https://www.apple.com/iphone-battery-and-
performance/](https://www.apple.com/iphone-battery-and-performance/)

~~~
wycy
The linked MacRumors thread is from before this scandal even came to light,
while Apple was still throttling. The thread begins in 2016 and ends in 2017.
iOS 11.3 came out March 2018, removing the throttle.

Unfortunately I can't check the reddit thread at the moment, as its blocked at
work.

EDIT: Reddit thread is also from prior to lifting the throttle.

~~~
overcyn
The throttle was not lifted in 11.3. They added a switch so users could
disable it.

[https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/7/16984234/how-to-iphone-
thr...](https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/7/16984234/how-to-iphone-throttling-
ios-11-3)

------
Isamu
>Apple acknowledged in December that it had intentionally slowed iPhones with
degraded batteries through software updates to avoid sudden shutdown problems,
but denied it had ever done anything to intentionally shorten the life of a
product.

>The company later apologised for its actions and reduced the cost of battery
replacements. It also added battery health information to iOS and allowed
users to turn off the slowing down of the iPhone’s processor.

On the other hand, Apple would be sued over the sudden shutdowns because of
the battery degradation, or over the battery degradation because of the cost
of battery replacement, or ... etc.

Class action suits are a cost of Apple doing business in giant volumes. They
(and every company) are making tradeoffs with their products and I know from
my own experience that making tradeoffs is an art and not a exact calculus.

So Apple can deal with the legal actions - they have the money. But of course
this is another high barrier of entry from anybody else looking to get into
the business.

~~~
jsilence
yeah, why again are the batteries not replaceable anymore?

~~~
Isamu
Eh? The batteries are replaceable. In-warranty it is free. Out-of-warranty
cost varies. Check here:

[https://support.apple.com/iphone/repair/battery-
power](https://support.apple.com/iphone/repair/battery-power)

What is true is that third-party replacements may not work out, I don't know.

~~~
the_clarence
That's a money grab. Battery replacement used to e so cheap

------
rbrtdrmpc-
I was laughing when they started the procedure months ago. First of all I'm
more keen to the "Apple should be less paternalistic" idea, but despite what i
think about their behaviour i need to explain to all non-italian folks around
here that the AGCOM (Autorità per le garanzie nelle comunicazioni/Authority
for Communications Guarantees) is a crappy authority, it is really a joke and
I'll list a couple of cases to highlight its quality:

\- Fined tv journalists for how they managed their airing time every year in
different ways, most of the time the decision is based on who's leading the
current government

\- Wanted to fine WhatsApp\Telegram\Etc because they were "free to use"
despite the mobile carriers were STILL charging for goddamn TXTs

\- It developed an antediluvian software to misure your internet bandwidth and
line quality that used to work only on Windows, that should have been left
alone without interfering for 24/48 hours and most of the time was not working
(instead of asking for fucking *DSL minimum attenuance/SNR/QoS levels by law)

Believe me, they are just trying to abuse of their power for some juice and I
hope Apple and Samsung will go via EU legal routes just to let everything fall
apart

p.s. I really hope our cousins from the other side of the Alps will do much
better, no matter what's the stake

------
paulmd
I was figuring this was going to be about Apple gimping the Qualcomm modems in
their phones down to the speeds that the Intel modems can deliver. (presumably
so that people don't try to return their iphones to get "the good kind" like
when the Samsung/TSMC SOCs affected battery life)

[https://www.fudzilla.com/news/mobile/42177-apple-crippled-
qu...](https://www.fudzilla.com/news/mobile/42177-apple-crippled-qualcomm-
modem-to-make-it-work-like-intel-s)

[https://www.theverge.com/2017/4/11/15255318/qualcomm-sues-
ap...](https://www.theverge.com/2017/4/11/15255318/qualcomm-sues-apple-iphone-
countersue-intel)

------
Animats
_It is a crime under French law to intentionally shorten the life of any
product in order to promote sales. The French consumer protection agency has
the power to fine up to 5% of annual turnover or impose a jail term._

Yes!

------
TwoBit
My Verizon Galaxy S7 performance tanked a few months ago all at once,
coinciding with some update.

I've found that if I run it in airplane mode then the perf is OK.

------
brennankreiman
Separating security updates from general new feature updates would be the key
for old phone updates but that is unlikely to happen.

------
dixie_land
Well now I'm raged that Microsoft isn't also fined since they slowed down
Windows Server 2016 on my 20 year old Celeron.

------
TomMarius
Say goodbye to OS updates on old devices

------
microcolonel
Hot damn, this is a bad precedent. A legal chilling effect on improving the
performance of software (because god forbid it gets slower in the future). I'd
be interested to see how they established that the slowdown was "intentional"
and not simply _negligent_ or _uncaring_.

------
izzydata
I don't understand why they can't write their OS updates to work properly on a
few generations of older models. I work as a SQA at a decently big company and
we verify that any update works properly on any hardware that is capable of
receiving it. We have more than 20 different hardware models and Apple is
struggling with 2?

~~~
ubernostrum
_We have more than 20 different hardware models and Apple is struggling with
2?_

iOS 12 officially supports the following devices, per Apple.

iPhones: XS, XS Max, XR, X, 8, 8 Plus, 7, 7 Plus, 6S, 6S Plus, 6, 6 Plus, SE,
5S

iPads: 12.9" Pro 2nd gen, 12.9" Pro 1st gen, 10.5" Pro, 9.7" Pro, 6th gen, 5th
gen, Air 2, Air, mini 4, mini 3, mini 2

iPods: touch 6th gen

That's 26 different base models, of I don't care to count how many different
physical form factors, each of which was/is offered in multiple configurations
and has different onboard hardware and capabilities.

Incidentally:

 _I don 't understand why they can't write their OS updates to work properly
on a few generations of older models_

They support 8 generations of iPhones, 11 generations of iPads, and one
generation of iPod, with the oldest supported devices dating to 2013.

~~~
izzydata
The article stated that the updates negatively impacted devices as early as 1
generation old. I don't consider that working properly. Either they tested
this scenario and intentionally ignored that it made the product worse or they
didn't test it.

