
Show HN: AutoMicroFarm Is Ready for Shipping - ph0rque
http://blog.automicrofarm.com/post/147044782291/the-automicrofarm-is-ready-for-shipping
======
codingdave
As someone who gardens, and has a little 3 acre homestead, this is not
something I would go for in its current state... but there are improvements
that could get me there:

1) I understand buying off the shelf parts for your prototype. But spending
hundreds of dollars to be shipped parts I could have bought myself is just
adding more middle-men into the supply chain. At this point, just sell the
parts list and plans for $20. And when you have built parts with ease of
assembly in mind, so this is 5x easier than DIY with parts from home depot...
THEN sell the kit.

2) You need to share data of how much water is needed on an ongoing basis, in
different climates. People in Arizona with limited water supplies might not
have the same resources to put in, for example.

3) You need to talk specifically about what plants work well, what the yields
are,in different climates and growing zones, and recommend planting strategies
for different locations.

~~~
ph0rque
Thanks for the feedback!

1\. In talking to other aquaponics businesses, I've heard that people are not
very excited about paying for a manual/plans. If you're serious about this,
let me know and I can email you a payment link :)

2\. Aquaponics in general only uses ~10% of the water a normal garden, with
the only water losses being evaporation and plant transpiration (and what
water is incorporated into the plants themselves).

3\. This is a good point. The plants that normally grow well in your garden
will grow well in aquaponics, with a few extreme exceptions. For example, you
would not want to grow blueberries, since they prefer a low pH.

~~~
cheald
I love the idea, but as an Arizonian, evaporation is a serious concern - in
the summertime, water evaporates out of pools at a rate several times faster
than more moderate climates (pool covers are big business out here for that
reason). When we water lawns/gardens, it's generally in the very early morning
or late evening, when we won't lose a large chunk of the water to evaporation.

I'd also be concerned about water temperatures of a shallow pool during the
summer. Water's a great heatsink, but that can be a problem when the ambient
air temperature is 118F, and the intense UV out here will likely break down
the pools quickly. Most anything made out of plastics is completely trashed
after a year of exposure out here. PEX in particular isn't rated for
continuous UV exposure, and would likely disintegrate rather aggressively out
here.

I love the idea, though. Turnkey aquaponics is a really exciting prospect,
especially out here where we don't have particularly rich soil. I'd love to be
able to run something like this in my backyard, if I could work out the
location-relevant logistics.

~~~
ph0rque
If evaporation is a serious issue, you could cover up most of the fish tank
(but be sure to add an air bubbler so there's enough oxygen for the fish).
Also, if you dig a hole for the fish tank (like I didn't) that should help
with the water temperature. In your case, tilapia would be a great fish to
grow, they are really happy with water above 85F.

Also, it would be a good idea to cover up the plastic, perhaps even more than
my enclosure does, to ensure it doesn't degrade as quickly.

I'll help customers make these and other design considerations as part of
AutoMicroFarm support.

~~~
snuxoll
> but be sure to add an air bubbler so there's enough oxygen for the fish

Not a serious aquarist here, but I did a lot of research before getting my
little 10 gallon tank at home set up and everything I've read says the oxygen
introduced by air bubbles in the water doesn't really dilute in the water well
(most of it just comes up the bubble and out into the open air). In theory, as
long as there is a big enough hole for a modest amount of air to be exchanged
with the surrounding environment you shouldn't need any extra equipment, as
the surface of the water should continue to exchange oxygen and carbon dioxide
just fine as long as there is enough oxygen present.

~~~
wtracy
What really matters is the surface agitation. Bubblers will do that, but so
will any pump as long as the outflow is directed toward the surface.

A better idea, I feel, is to just keep a layer of air between the water
surface and the cover. The key issue is that oxygen has trouble crossing the
air/water boundary, so you want that to be as big as possible. Meanwhile, if
you keep the air holes in the cover small enough, most of the humid air will
be trapped inside, and you will minimize losses from evaporation.

~~~
ph0rque
Another factor to consider is the air pressure. If you cover up the fish tank,
and add the air bubbler, the pressure will increase, which will increase the
dissolution of oxygen into the water.

------
jsilence
* Sand is not a good substrate for plants. Too fine - aeration problems; surface to volume ratio not good. Anaerobic zones will form. Denitrification with odor will stress plants and fishes.

* No dedicated biofilter. Nitrification bacteria will form and live on the sand. Tight coupling between fsh tank and grow beds. No way to decouple when one or the other has to be maintained.

* Fine mesh preventing the sand to get into the fish tank will clogg with detritus.

* Grow beds will clogg with detritus after approximately one season.

* No sump tank. Water level in the fish tank will vary a lot. Fish don't like that. Stocking density will have to be low to aleviate this.

* Too much sun on the fish tank. Most fish species don't like this and algae will form rapidly.

Please do not _sell_ aquaponic designs like this one.

I'm doing aquaponics since 2012 and I'm currently working in aquaponic
research for a university.

~~~
nkurz
_Sand is not a good substrate for plants._

What's a better inexpensive substrate? I've been finding Diatomaceous Earth
(sold as kitty litter or oil absorbent) to be great for starting seedlings,
but it's more expensive than desirable for filling a large volume.

Detailed thread here:
[http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=22329](http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=22329)

~~~
spiderfarmer
[http://www.grodan.nl/oplossingen/groenteteelt+producten/grot...](http://www.grodan.nl/oplossingen/groenteteelt+producten/grotop+master)

Used in Dutch greenhouses for the last 20 years or so.

~~~
jsilence
Most of the grodan producs are made from rock wool. From a plant perspective
it is a very good substrate, good capilarity, inert, stable.

But it is not compostable and recyclable.

For a classical ebb and flow grow bed, the rock wool fibers are too fine
grained.

~~~
spiderfarmer
You're wrong, it is 100% recyclable[1]. Otherwise we would have an enormous
heap of those things.

It's not composted, but luckily these things can be recycled into other, more
useful products. You basically can't sell compost over here as there is too
much compost already. We're already exporting compost to the UK for very low
prices.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5yw_RIU59o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5yw_RIU59o)

~~~
jsilence
Ah cool, good to know. Thank you for the pointer.

------
ph0rque
Hi HN, Andrew here. I'm the AutoMicroFarm founder. Really happy to finally
have this prototype finished, and available. Let me know if you have any
questions!

~~~
rhaps0dy
How many of these would you need to produce enough food for one adult? What
kind of fish should you grow, and how long do they take to be adults and
edible?

Your project is very cool, I think you're doing an amazing job. Keep it up!

~~~
ph0rque
If you eat mostly plants, two of these systems will provide 90%+ of your food
(assuming you have a greenhouse to put it in, or live in a place that stays
warm year-round).

The fastest-growing fish used for aquaponics is tilapia, which can reach
maturity in six months. But, they require for the water temperature to stay
above 60F (15C), and really prefer water above 85F (30C). Other fish take 9 or
more months to mature.

Thanks!

~~~
juliangoldsmith
>If you eat mostly plants, two of these systems will provide 90%+ of your food

What numbers are you basing this on? That is, do you have an estimated yield
in lbs. for what one system can produce?

~~~
ph0rque
My initial proof-of-concept produced 10 lbs/square foot annually, not counting
the fish. This system should be more productive, but only time will tell.

If this system has similar levels of productivity, it would produce 360 lbs
annually, so two systems get you 2 lbs of food daily.

------
gricardo99
Very cool concept. I would like a bit more information on the following:

1) What kind of fish are recommended/suitable?

2) Where do you get the fish? I assume most pet stores don't sell fish to
raise for food.

3) What are the fish food options? Again, I assume pet stores don't carry the
required feed.

Edit: A few more fish related questions: Do you have to stick to one type of
fish at a time? How many fish can your kit support at one time? I'm sure
that's species dependent, so perhaps some examples?

~~~
ph0rque
1\. Tilapia, perch, and catfish are popular. I have catfish in mine. You just
have to match the temperature requirements to your climate/area.

2\. You would get the fish at a fish hatchery, there should be one near you.
This is something I find out for my customers. You can also buy fish online,
but the overnight shipping makes it a bit expensive.

3\. You can buy fish food online, or at a hatchery, or e.g. Tractor Supply.

4\. The thing about different fish species (or even same species but
substantially different sizes) is that if a fish fits inside a bigger fish's
mouth, that bigger fish will try to eat it, unless the smaller fish has
somewhere to hide, like aquatic vegetation. This is something I will be
experimenting with more.

~~~
rapind
Re 4. Might be better off with two fish tanks. One for the wee ones?

~~~
ph0rque
Yes, the 'aqua' part is well developed in the aquaculture field.

------
sbhere
Realizing this touches several comments made already...

\- What about pests? Will the fish control mosquito-larvae in the pool? ...
and any other bugs that fall in? (Think southeastern US or other places where
mosquitos can be a problem.)

\- What about scavengers? Do the fish bed to be protected from raccoons out
suburban/feral cats?

\- Can you sell sub-kits? For example, I could use your source of kiddie pools
and fish, but don't need to buy pex from you when there's a hardware store two
miles away...

\- What about erosion during times of hard precipitation? (Again, most places
in the US do get some serious weather multiple times during the growing
season.) Seeing my mature plants wash away would be rather frustrating.

I dig the idea, from one garden hacker to another, I just have a lot of
questions ... and as I said: I'm not interested in a full kit, but a sub-kit
with research would be really useful.

~~~
ph0rque
Just talked to someone who also says raccoons will be a problem. I guess the
best solution would be to have a lid/cover for your fish tank.

~~~
wtracy
If there are raccoons in your area, you really want netting over the pond.

The standard advice for preventing fish loss to raccoons without using netting
is: the water must be at least three feet deep (any less than that, and the
raccoons will hang from the edge by their hind legs and grab sleeping fish off
the bottom) and you MUST NOT train your fish to surface near the edge of the
pond (fish have trouble distinguishing the sound of human footsteps from the
sound of raccoon footsteps). Any food should be thrown into the pond at least
three feet away from the pond edge.

Naturally, that advice isn't very helpful for a pond six feet or less in
diameter.

~~~
ph0rque
Thanks for the advice. Seems like an appropriate-sized net would cost around
$10.

------
netinstructions
What a cool idea! I was pretty surprised how much the wooden enclosure really
improved its appearance.

~~~
ph0rque
Yes, me too! My wife also really liked it, saying how the enclosure finally
made her not ashamed to tell her friends about it :)

------
gravypod
Well hell, there is definitely room for profit on this system!

A few of the YouTubers I like have built systems like this. One of the better
systems was from MrTeslonian [0].

Hope you get people to buy this!

[0] - [https://youtu.be/VaY5hMxTExQ](https://youtu.be/VaY5hMxTExQ)

~~~
ph0rque
That looks similar to a barrelponics system. That was my first, proof-of-
concept prototype. It cost me $700 and 50 hours of work, and had a growing
area of ~9 square feet.

I'm sure you could get the system cheaper if you found the parts for sale, or
already have them. You could also build it faster if you're really handy, have
the experience, and don't make any mistakes.

------
joshstaiger
Very cool! I'll be keeping an eye on this.

This year I've been experimenting with these DIY self-watering grow
containers:

[http://earthtainer.tomatofest.com/pdfs/EarthTainer-
Construct...](http://earthtainer.tomatofest.com/pdfs/EarthTainer-Construction-
Guide.pdf)

Very little maintenance after the initial assembly and planting, and I've had
pretty great results so far.

I've heard about aquaponics before, but never dug into it. I'd be interested
in hearing about its advantages over a (presumably less involved) traditional
container setup like mine.

~~~
ph0rque
Hey Josh, the advantages are similar as compared to a garden, except the
containers solve some of the problems (such as optimal watering). Probably the
biggest advantage is you get fish as part of your harvest.

------
andrewwhartion
If this type of thing piques you interest, there is a vibrant aquaponics
community with many forums eg. [1] and designs using all sorts of off-the-
shelf parts.

IBCs and blue plastic drums are generally the "go to' solution [2] as they're
made from HDPE, although some are made from plastics that are not considered
food safe as they use mould release agents during the manufacturing process
which are toxic (no reference for this at the moment, sorry).

Just be aware that generally you need A LOT more grow bed area than you would
think to be able to efficiently use the fish tank volume. You can pack a lot
of happy fish into a given volume of water.

Also, the general consensus is to use course gravel (20mm) rather than sand,
as sand can quickly become blocked with organic material.

[1]
[http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/forum/](http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/forum/)

[2] [http://ibcofaquaponics.com/](http://ibcofaquaponics.com/)

[EDIT] Also, you'll want to keep the sunlight off the fish tank, because once
the nitrogen level starts to rise [3], the algae will go nuts in there. I
learned this the hard way.

[3] [http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/information/the-
nitrogen-c...](http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/information/the-nitrogen-
cycle/)

~~~
ph0rque
I realize the gravel vs. sand debate is a bit contentious, but I haven't had
any blockage in the two months I have been running the system, despite claims
of that the sand will become clogged within hours or days.

In fact, the sand media was the original aquaponics design.

References:

[http://iavs.info/](http://iavs.info/)
[http://aquaponicsnation.com/forums/topic/9039-integrated-
aqu...](http://aquaponicsnation.com/forums/topic/9039-integrated-
aquavegeculture-system-iavs/)

~~~
andrewwhartion
That's good to hear you've been having success with sand.

I'd love to hear how it's going after 12 months, because sand is certainly
easier to work with than course gravel, which can be difficult to plant
seedlings into, based on my own experience.

~~~
ph0rque
I'll let you know. But I hope to find/develop a better medium before then
([http://blog.automicrofarm.com/post/142436464771/mushroom-
med...](http://blog.automicrofarm.com/post/142436464771/mushroom-media-
adventures)).

------
mdorazio
Was the kiddie pool chosen specifically for cost? There are a plethora of
fiberglass and UV-stabilized PET plastic holding tanks used in the aquaculture
business (and rainwater collection systems) that would have much better
strength and lower tendency to go brittle over time.

~~~
ph0rque
Yes, the biggest consideration was cost, and the lack of any potentially
harmful plastics, such as phthalates and bisphenols (such as BPA).

~~~
BadCookie
How much more would it cost to use something that's at least a solid color
(preferably green/black/brown)? The obvious kiddie pool factor is a big enough
turn off for a lot of people that fixing it might be worth raising the price
point. Even the wooden enclosure doesn't hide the color and print on the pool.

~~~
ph0rque
The cost is ~$100 more per container (from what I could find), so the whole
system ends up costing $300 more, at least. Is it worth the color change?

~~~
prawn
As soon as you have any sort of volume, you could hit Alibaba and try to find
something better, even get your items customised to completely suit your
needs.

The colour/look would completely put me off buying.

------
keenerd
I presume you need to manually top off the system for evaporation?

In rainy weather, is losing nutrients to overflow a problem?

Any thoughts to using a 12VDC pump, powered by a solar panel and small
battery? (In some places it is illegal to have an extension cord outdoors for
months on end.)

Would it be easier/cheaper to ship a version that didn't include the kiddie
pools or sand, with the expectation that someone could source those bulky
items themselves?

~~~
ph0rque
Yes, you would need to top off in times of little rain.

Unless you have a ton of rain, I don't see losing the nutrients as a problem.

That is something I looked into. For $150-$200, you can buy a kit containing
the DC pump, a battery, a solar panel, and a timer.

That is something I considered, but I thought it would be simpler to start off
with just one offering.

~~~
sbhere
Is there some provision for the over-watering (rainy) scenario? I would be
interested if this were accounted for...

~~~
ph0rque
Yes, I drilled a small hole near the top of the fish tank. I'll update my blog
to mention this.

------
david-given
See also [https://automicrofarm.com](https://automicrofarm.com).

------
tmoullet
I just saw that this system went on sale recently too:
[https://farmbot.io/](https://farmbot.io/)

It would be way cool to collab and create an AutoMicroFarmBot.

What features of the AMF are you planning for the next iteration/2.0?

~~~
ph0rque
Yup, I'm in touch with Rory of FarmBot.

I would really like to solve the hassle of how heavy and inconvenient sand is,
perhaps by replacing it with e.g. mushroom media:
[http://blog.automicrofarm.com/post/142436464771/mushroom-
med...](http://blog.automicrofarm.com/post/142436464771/mushroom-media-
adventures). But, first things first :)

~~~
tmoullet
Why did you decide on a two tiered system? I've seen aquaponic setups where
the farmers are using a floating medium above the fish pool.

~~~
ph0rque
It's hard to find a 12" (30cm) deep medium that would allow for fruiting
plants such as tomatoes, be lighter than water, and not just be a support
structure such as polyurethane foam (i.e. not having roots grow through it).

------
jacquesm
Fantastic, really nice to see this done from start to finish. Will this ship
to Europe?

~~~
ph0rque
Thanks! I'm just focusing on the US market for now. Although I'm sure all the
parts (or their equivalents) are available in Europe.

~~~
prawn
If many components are typically available in hardware stores, have you looked
at dropshipping in some way from hardware stores local to each buyer? You
could ship out instructions and any exotic pieces from a central spot, plus
the bulk of things from local stores?

------
arijun
Aquaponics has always interested me, and as an alpha product this looks pretty
neat! A few questions:

1) I've heard that you don't really save money on the fish side after you take
into account feed and labor. Would you characterize that as true?

2) What are we talking about in terms of maintenance time/costs?

3) How high is the risk of mold or some disease getting in your system,
considering your fairly inexperienced target user base?

~~~
ph0rque
1\. This may be true with aquaculture, but in backyard-sized aquaponics, where
you're not trying to breed fish, I feel there's really not that much labor
involved. And the feed not only feeds the fish, it's later re-used as
fertilizer for plants. If you account for both fish and plant production, you
can definitely save money.

2\. Maintenance time is minimal: I spent 15 minutes a day on my initial
prototype, and that was mostly to feed the fish and gather the harvest, once
it got going. Maintenance costs are really minimal: fish feed and seeds come
out to maybe $20-30 annually.

3\. I've never had a problem with mold, since the water always drains (after
flooding). There is always the chance that you'll get some kind of pest or
disease on your fish/plants, I've had those pests but companion planting can
minimize that risk (something I'll help my customers with).

------
daemonk
I have a pair of pet terrapins. Has anyone tried aquaponics with terrapins?
They produce a lot more waste than fish. Perhaps that'll allow for more land-
mass for growing?

~~~
JPKab
I don't know anything about terrapins in particular, but turtles in general
carry a ton of potentially dangerous diseases. In many states, turtles are
outlawed as pets because their digestive systems are so geared towards
incubating bacterial pathogens.

------
pw
It's really exciting that YC Fellowship is funding stuff like this (that is,
stuff that is truly very early-stage and experimental).

------
michaelmior
Wow, that was quick! After following this project for a few years it's nice to
see this finally ready :)

------
Animats
"Pays for itself in six months" with what value attached to the labor
involved?

~~~
ZenoArrow
Do you really attach a dollar value to activities you do in your spare time?

~~~
Animats
It's a system for producing food. How much does that food really cost?

~~~
ZenoArrow
However much the store you buy it from sells it for. Stores don't sell at the
cost of raw materials, so the argument you can discount the cost of labour
(and the cost of processing, transport and storage for that matter) doesn't
really make much sense.

