
Unlimited Vacation Time - bbarrows
http://www.bbarrows.com/Programming/Jobs/Vacation/2013/01/26/vacation.html
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seldo
"Unlimited vacation" translates to "no vacation".

What does "as long as you're getting your work done" mean? There's no point in
the year when nobody would be happier if you got something done sooner.
There's never a time when taking vacation doesn't mean that some work you
might have done doesn't get pushed to somebody else, or never done. The point
of vacation is that you should be able to relax, but if you're worrying that
you're screwing the company by not getting your work done, how can you relax?

Unlimited vacation sounds nice, but in practice it doesn't work.

~~~
kelnos
Have you worked at a company that offers unlimited vacation?

I do (it's a recent change for us). It works fine. People take time off when
they want to (one of the guys on my team is on a 2-week vacation in Thailand
right now). Yes, some people (including myself) do the illogical guilt thing
on occasion. But if your manager isn't encouraging you to take time off
periodically, he's doing a bad job as your manager.

Right now I'm planning a week and a half in Peru for this spring, and I'm
toying with the idea of a southeast Asia trip this summer for a similar amount
of time. I also took four days off beyond normal holiday days around the New
Year. A week and a half ago I was very ill and stayed home for three days
without having to worry about "taking a sick day" (not to mention that my
colleagues thanked me for not coming in and getting them sick too).

If you work for a company that has "unlimited vacation" but makes people who
use it feel stigmatized, quit and find a company that doesn't lie to you about
its culture. They do exist.

It makes me sad that this "unlimited vacation doesn't work" comment is the
top-voted one right now. It's absolutist and entirely nonsensical.

~~~
fizx
So we agree unlimited vacation really means "vacation at the mercy of your
manager."

The problem with "quit and find a company that doesn't lie to you about its
culture" is that you can't tell if they're lying until you've made the
enormous investment of quitting your previous job and getting hired there.

Even if they're the good guys(tm), their investors can kick out the previous
CEO, and management styles can change dramatically for the worse.

If you accept "unlimited vacation," you're negotiating a scenario where a non-
trivial portion of your compensation is tied to the goodwill of your counter-
party, whose inherent interests are opposed to yours, and where the costs of
you "fixing" the situation are dramatic.

Caveat emptor.

~~~
kelnos
_So we agree unlimited vacation really means "vacation at the mercy of your
manager."_

Vacation is always at the mercy of your manager, regardless if it's unlimited
or not.

So ok, you clearly are flat-out cynical about all this stuff so... don't work
for a company with unlimited vacation. It works just fine for some of us, who
work for reasonable companies. That's a fact, regardless of your feelings on
the matter.

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anemitz
Another less likely employer benefit to be considered is that in roughly half
of that U.S. states, employers must pay out accrued vacation time if there is
a policy in place.

An example from California's vacation faq
(<http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_vacation.htm>):

"For example, an employee who is entitled to three weeks of annual vacation
(15 work days entitlement per year x 8 hours/day = 120 hours vacation
entitlement per year) who quits on August 7, 2002 (the 219th day of the year)
without having taken any vacation in 2002, who has no vacation carry-over from
prior years, and whose final rate of pay is $13.00 per hour, would be entitled
to $936.00 vacation pay upon separation"

~~~
moxie
I've always assumed this is exactly why silicon valley companies have
unlimited vacation policies. They know their employees won't take much
vacation time, and this way they won't have to put the balance on the books.

~~~
pbiggar
I don't think that would work. When we set up our company handbook, we had to
include an actual number of vacation days, even though we have an minimum-
number-of-days policy. I think Trinet (HR-as-a-service) made us.

~~~
anemitz
While I haven't researched this a ton, I've heard conflicting opinions about
whether or not you must have a vacation policy in your handbook. This may also
be a state-by-state requirement meaning TriNet optimizes for the blanket, you
must have one, stance. Does anyone have a citation proving this one way or
another?

~~~
dworin
In nearly every case (California is always special, as are a few other
states), you aren't required to have a vacation policy at all, or any company
policy for that matter. One of the main reasons you have company policies is
to make administration easier, and more importantly, to protect you from legal
troubles that result from discrimination. If you have a clear policy about
vacation days and how they're paid out, and you adhere to it, it will be much
harder for someone to claim it as evidence of discrimination than if you sort
things out on a case-by-case basis, without any sort of policy as a guide.

Outsourcing partners will require it for similar reasons, but also because it
makes their lives a lot easier when they handle it for you.

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carterschonwald
What I think is a more interesting ideas is this: minimum vacation time. You
must take at least X vacation days / weeks per year. I think that would be the
best of both worlds and avoids the psychology wherein no vacation is had,
which is toxic

~~~
ben1040
FDIC says it is also a good internal control policy - force people to take a 2
week vacation as a means to mitigate fraud.

<http://www.fdic.gov/news/news/financial/1995/fil9552.html>

~~~
rdl
It is also good for resilience and disaster planning.

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rm999
I switched from a job with 3 weeks of vacation (that would be 4 by now if I
had stayed) to one with no policy. My take on it is I can take 3-4 weeks a
year without feeling guilty.

I honestly think every responsible and competent adult (and I purposefully
leave those terms imprecise) should have no vacation policy. Vacation should
be a fact of life: take it when you need it, don't take it when you can't, and
work as much as you need to to do a good job (again, imprecise).

~~~
Evbn
You want to be an independent contractor. That is cool, but not what an
employer is.

Do you think responsible adults should just pay employees whatever they need
and can, and not agree on a number in advance? Why or why not?

~~~
brm
Are you paying for them to be there for a prescribed time or are you paying
them to get the work done?

~~~
thedudemabry
I agree. I've now worked for two companies with unlimited vacation policies,
and there have been some stark differences. At my previous job, where there
was previously an accrued vacation system that switched to an unlimited
policy, no one felt good about taking vacation days. At my current employer,
everyone from the founders on down advertise and celebrate their vacation.
Same policy, different context.

From an hours-worked-metrics standpoint, the policy is a success at my
previous employer and a failure at my current job.

From an employee-health and burnout-rate standpoint, the policy is a failure
at my previous employer and a massive success here.

I can't advocate either policy over the other without that context, but I'm
skeptical of the value of introducing unlimited vacation as a benefit over an
existing accrued vacation policy that employees are generally happy with.

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dvo
I've been the beneficiary of vacation payouts somewhat regularly, which were
in addition to bonuses paid based on overtime hours. I was also able to take
advantage of a significant chunk of vacation I had built up when I left my
previous company to help fund starting a new company.

In my case, I would probably not benefit dollar for dollar from an unlimited
vacation policy. I would either take less vacation or not benefit from the
payouts. That's not to say that unlimited vacation is a bad policy. It might
be a great policy, and I'm sure it depends on the details of how it is
implemented and the culture of the company where it is implemented; however,
it is certainly possible that the practical outcome is more of a net benefit
for the company rather than the employees.

Since many startups these days are advertising unlimited vacation, I'd love to
hear from both founders and employees about some of the practical ways in
which this policy plays out.

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dlevine
We've talked about this a fair bit at 42Floors. The consensus is that the more
senior people need to make an example of themselves by liberally taking
vacation. If they set the example, then everyone else will take vacation.

At a previous startup, we had pretty much unlimited vacation time, and the
result was that no one took any. So clearly this doesn't work unless you make
a point of encouraging people to actually take advantage. We thought about
setting a minimum vacation policy where you have to take at least a certain
amount, but some people didn't like the idea of being forced to take vacation.

Since I haven't taken any significant vacation since I started (6 months ago),
I recently made a deal with Jason (the CEO) that I need to plan a significant
vacation by the end of February. Suggestions welcome...

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hakaaaaak
What I think is more important than vacation time is the ability to take time
off for a doc appt., dentist appt., go see the kids play at school, take a
walk around, because you're sick.

Also, freedom from incompatible work environments would be nice. It is way too
noisy where I work. At the very least they should provide nice ($300-400)
noise cancellation headphones without me having to beg.

~~~
logn
In the US you're legally entitled to time off for doctor's appointments.

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hoffsam
I totally agree with you! It's hard enough to get away with taking vacation
when it's quantified. Also, I notice that a lot places offering unlimited
vacation tend to be younger companies that are growing which makes it that
much harder to "get away" without disruption.

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toonse
If you feel guilty or pressured when taking vacation then perhaps you need to
find a better company. The mind and body need breaks.

~~~
acchow
Absolutely agree. I worked pretty much non-stop for a 2 month period (being in
grad school as well as a full-time SWE) last year. When I finally took a break
(holiday shut down) I was surprised do discover how exhausted I truly was.

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Scramblejams
I notice when I'm offered a certain amount of vacation but feel pressure not
to use it, I'm much more likely to use it. The hypocrisy gets to me, and I
think, "If you don't want me to use it, don't offer it!" If a boss can't plan
around his employees taking the offered vacation, then he's probably not doing
his job very well.

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tallanvor
I've been working overseas for over 4 years, and I'm only now getting used to
the amount of vacation time we get. We are actually encouraged to use all of
our vacation time. --It works out like this:

By law we get 5 weeks of vacation a year. My employer throws in an extra week
as a perk, but that week gets used last, and can't roll over - basically use
all 6 weeks or lose one. And then you can roll over up to 2 weeks if you don't
use it all. So in practice, this means that you'll take at least 3 weeks, and
almost everyone takes the full 6 weeks, unless they're planning something for
the next year and know that they'll want an extra two weeks.

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dworin
Like most things in business, the problem isn't with the policy, it's with
management. If you create a culture that frowns upon employees taking vacation
time, it won't matter if you give them unlimited vacation or only two weeks,
nobody will take it. And if you create a culture that values rested,
refreshed, happy employees, the total number of days isn't nearly as
important.

With that said, when unlimited vacation time is implemented well, it can be
amazing for both the company and employees for a number of reasons:

1) You don't worry as much about things like sick days or one-off PTO. Work
doesn't always follow a 9-5 schedule, so if you end up working 60 hours in
four days, you can just take Friday off - it feels like less of a big deal if
you don't have to worry about 'losing a day.'

2) Do you need to leave early to make a flight? Don't worry about entering it
into the system, just do it.

3) If people are legitimately sick, they won't come to the office and infect
everyone out of fear of 'using a sick day.'

4) Holidays get a lot easier. Do you not mind working between Christmas and
New Years, but want to take time off for Eid/Rosh
Hashanah/Diwali/Festivus/whatever? All of a sudden it's not a big deal. It's
also great for parents, who don't have to worry as much about child care if
their kids have random day off of school.

5) You can take a 'big trip' without losing all your days. The consecutive
days, rather than the one-off long weekends, are the bigger issue for a
company. I've actually found it easier to take a long trip when I didn't have
to worry about losing all my days.

Companies are nervous about this arrangement because they worry employees will
abuse it, but again, that's a management issue. You have unlimited vacation
time as long as you are getting your work done. If you're taking so much time
the work isn't getting done, then the issue isn't vacation time, it's a
performance problem, the same as if you showed up every day and just played on
facebook.

Because the management piece of it is so important, there are also things
companies can do to make a system like this work better:

1) Create a mandatory 'real vacation' by requiring employees to take at least
a week off, in a row, once a year. If employees feel like they can never take
time off, they'll get burnt out and you'll lose great people. If you make a
vacation mandatory, people will feel more comfortable taking the time, and the
company will reap the rewards of happier, clearer thinking people. Plus, many
people, especially in creative or professional jobs, get inspired when they're
able to step away from the day to day for a little bit.

2) Make telecommuting easy, so that employees can still check in even if
they're not in the office. Sometimes, people only really need a half day, but
don't mind sitting on e-mail in the morning. Or they have their kids around
all day and would love to get the opportunity to talk to some adults. The
important thing here is to be flexible, and make sure that telecommuting
doesn't become "we can make you work wherever, whenever, even on vacation."

3) Have real performance management. This isn't about annual reviews, it's
about managers that provide ongoing, regular feedback about how employees are
doing against the company's goals, help them understand when they're falling
short, and work non-performers out of the organization. Top performers will
get turned off by anyone abusing the policy, even more than management.

~~~
CWIZO
Can you explain why people are afraid to take a sick day?

I'm not from the USA, so this might be a cultural thing or things just work
different where I'm from.

Also, since I'm moving there, does this apply to the UK?

~~~
summerdown2
It doesn't apply to the UK. If you're sick, be sick. You'll be paid, too.

A few caveats:

1\. The above is for permanent positions. If you're a contractor the rules are
different.

2\. The above is true once you're through probation, which might be the first
six months.

3\. I have no idea what it's like in startups. I've only ever worked for big
companies or the government.

But in general, sick leave is a benefit like a company car or flexible
working. If it's in your contract, no one will mind you using it.

A point about holiday leave, too. In the UK, it's usual to take holidays.
Everyone does, and then we talk about them in the office afterwards. It's
considered part of being a rounded human being. Most holiday entitlements
don't roll over, either, so if you don't use your 30 days (for example), you
lose the remainder. This means there's a bit of a scramble to get them used up
before rollover day. Everyone does this, and you'll be looked upon as a bit
peculiar if you don't use the holidays you're entitled to.

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Udo
Back when we were doing our startup, we had a month's worth of vacation hard-
coded into our employment contracts. Everyone got the same amount. This gave
people a good measuring stick of what we expected under normal conditions. We
didn't enforce the limit though, so people could take more if they wanted to
(which happened very rarely). We also encouraged people to take time off,
especially when they seemed burned out.

This worked amazingly well. It was one of the very few things we did right.

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ghshephard
My company previously had 12 days of vacation a year, they switched to
"unlimited vacation" - most people, myself included, take about a week a year
now.

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mathattack
Unlimited Vacation policies borrow from the Unlimited Sick Time. Most
companies used to be explicit about sick days. "You get 6 per year." Then a
few companies started with a more enlightened policy of, "We don't count, we
trust you." Perhaps the early adopters of this policy viewed it as a trust
issue. Then the data started coming in... On average people took a lot fewer
than 6 when nobody was counting. The policy then turned in to a cost savings
plan, and everyone started doing it.

The "You get as much vacation as you want" seems to be going that direction
too. The early adopters were enlightened, thinking, "The value of showing
trust to an engineer will more than pay for the rare abuse." It does save
money, and now the cost cutters are seeing it too.

I've worked in several places where you get a month of vacation, and never get
to use it all because you're too busy. Changing that to unlimited does not
help much.

Some things that do help: \- Mandate everyone takes a 2 week continuous
vacation. This is done by banks for compliance reasons. (Harder to hide fraud
if you're out 2 weeks in a row.) It is very beneficial, because this forces
you to take at least 2 weeks of your allocated 4. \- Allow paid sabbaticals.
"After X years, you can take 2X weeks off for a continuous sabbatical that we
pay for, and we'll pick up half of any coursework or travel costs." \- Lead by
example. This is VERY tough, because most good leaders like to lead by example
showing that they're not above working hard. They can also lead by example
taking their vacation.

In the end, none of this is altruistic. It's a way to keep talent motivated
and feeling valued when they have lots of options. If you stiff a good
engineer 2 weeks of vacation, they can always make it up by taking 2 weeks off
before starting another job. :-)

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CurtMonash
When I had a few employees in Manhattan, my policy was "Sick days, holidays,
vacation --just do what makes sense." It all worked out fine.

My office manager, whose main house was a couple hours outside NYC, took 3 and
4 day weekends at the slightest pretext, e.g. some Jewish holidays I've never
heard of before or since. Once she even got it up to 5 days. On the other
hand, the only time she took a solid week off was when I insisted she fly to
her estranged mother's funeral. And she didn't get sick much.

My #2 office guy was Catholic, and didn't need the Jewish holidays. About the
only time they overlapped on a day I wanted to be open was for Good Friday
(which of course usually falls during Passover).

It all worked out fine.

Similarly, both there and especially in the Boston area where people drove to
work, my policy was "Good heavens, don't start at 9:00 am and fight the worst
of rush hour unless you really want to!" Some chose 8:00 am, some 10:00 am. I
had more coverage, and it was all good.

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SatvikBeri
There's a huge discussion here on how what really matters is company culture,
not policies on how much vacation time you're allowed.

My takeaway is to only work for companies where you already know somebody
outside of work. The problem is that it's _really_ hard to get a sense of a
company's culture during the interview process, so unless you have a friend
who's willing to tell the truth you can easily be deceived. I know some
companies that claimed to have 40 hour work weeks but people frequently came
in on weekends. More surprisingly, I knew some companies where they claimed to
be workaholics but generally held 9-5 hours.

So find someone you trust to tell you the raw truth about the company-not the
whitewashed sales pitch. "2 weeks of official vacation, but people actually
take 5" is a lot better than "unlimited vacation, but no one takes any."

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jasonjei
At Levion, we're looking at implementing a stated vacation day policy, but as
a matter of policy. So to avoid discouraging people from using say, 10 or 15
days of vacation, you are guaranteed those days. As a matter of policy, we
probably won't track vacation days unless it feels excessive (and where you
need to "buy" vacation days if you go over excessively). How does this sound?

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yarianluis
I've found that it's sometimes the case that you will officially get offered a
fixed amount of vacation time, but informally you can take more than it if you
want.

The unwritten rule seems to be "you're working really hard to get a featured
shipped, if you need extra vacation to decompress after, feel free".

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daven11
I'd go on vacation for ever and see how long they keep paying me :-)

