
Sleep tweaks boost night owls' wellbeing - seagullz
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-48558309
======
daenz
I've had sleep problems for as long as I can remember. I self-diagnosed Non-24
Sleep-Wake Disorder, where your body clock is typically slightly longer than a
24 hours, and so you feel tired later and later every day, eventually going to
sleep is nearly impossible. It makes keeping to a normal routine extremely
difficult.

The fix for me was morning blue light lamp, as soon as I wake up, for one
hour. And 1.5 hours before bedtime, I take 500mcg melatonin. These 2 things
worked like a miracle. I kept a log of doing these things, and the exact time
I performed them, for a month. After a month, the habit was there, and I know
have a normal sleep pattern, so long as I stick to the light and the
supplement. It's had a huge impact on my life.

EDIT>> 500mcg, not mg

~~~
balfirevic
I'm in the same situation. What blue light lamp are you using? How did you
settle on your current melatonin regime?

Also, any other advice that you may have would be appreciated, thanks!

~~~
daenz
This is the lamp
[https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B079YBGPM5](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B079YBGPM5).
The important aspect of it is to have it within 12 inches of your face when
using it, but not directly in your eyes (can mess with your eyes). I usually
have mine in front of my keyboard, tilted up, so the majority of the light is
coming in from the bottom of my eyes.

As far as melatonin, I have to point out that I edited my post to say 500mcg
(0.5mg) not 500mg. I've done some reading that the light doses work very well
[http://news.mit.edu/2005/melatonin](http://news.mit.edu/2005/melatonin). I
haven't really tinkered with the dosage much, because the dosage I started
with seems to work well.

The last thing I will say is that keeping a log is important. I've never been
one to keep logs for things, but I knew if I was going to fix this problem and
make it a habit, I needed to stick to it rigidly for a month. That's what it
took for the habit to form, and I'm glad I did it. Best of luck!

~~~
souprock
Assuming the screen to be 0.5 square feet, that is only about 465 lumens. LED
bulbs for standard sockets are commonly available up to 4000 lumens, and I
have a bigger one that is about 7000 lumens.

I have those all over my house.

My kitchen has 14 40-watt T12 bulbs, probably 2600 lumens each, which would
total 36400 lumens.

~~~
daenz
Yeah I couldn't be around lights that intense later in the day. Same thing
with computer screens...I have them dim and disable blue wavelengths around
sunset.

------
Zenst
This 9-5 mentality being imposed in a way that if your sleep pattern is an
owl, you're kinda ostracized and viewed as an issue you need to fix, has been
going on forever. When the crux suggestion from this `research` is to go to
bed 2-3 hours earlier and wake up 2-3 hours earlier and presuming the person
does not have DSPS (Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome) or other genetic trait that
causes this is, and always is, offencive.

The way we treat night owls is akin to mental health in the 40's.

Not everybody works 9-5, not every job can be fitted into a 9-5. But many of
the jobs allocated 9-5 could equally benefit from flexi-time and have those
who wake up early come in earlier and those who wake up late, come in later.
Covering more hours, and cater for those who are equally not 9-5 people.

It's time work hours got some research, not the people being forced into this
arbitrary cookie-cutter mentality.

Some companies already do flexi-time and cater for such people, but time and
time again, the media and research go to mentality is in viewing such peoples
as an issue in a way that parallels many forms of negative science we have
seen historically upon many differences between humans.

People's sleep patterns are not unified, not even binary, and people should be
able to find the sleep pattern that works for them and not be forced into all
wearing the same dictated sleep pattern.

With that, the way to boost wellbeing of night owls is: 1) Stop treating them
as an issue but an opportunity and embrace that diversity. 2) See point one
and stop repeating the same mistakes with different categorisation.

~~~
leftyted
I think calling this "offensive" is a bit silly. Pushing everything into the
box of "marginalized minority oppressed by uncaring majority" is getting old.
In our society, waking up early-ish is advantageous. And not just in terms of
work. It's nice to be awake in the morning when everything is still. Mornings
are peaceful and beautiful.

I've always been a "night owl" and I could come in at 10 or 11 and work until
6-7 if I wanted to - no one I work with cares as long as I'm communicative and
get things done. But adjusting my sleep schedule and getting in around 8-8:30
(wake at 6:30-7) has improved my quality of life. I'm also most productive
before noon.

Getting sun seems important. I have a Hacker News Health Theory (TM) about
melanin content: why would human skin color vary so reliably based on distance
from equator if sun wasn't really, really important? I think that, maybe,
getting enough sun is much more important to our health than we realize.

~~~
danaliv
You're teetering on the brink of an epiphany there with the phrase "in our
society." Being a night owl wasn't a problem until we built a world that
didn't include us. The problem isn't night owls. It's the insistence from
others that everyone be exactly the same, inborn traits be damned. So yeah,
it's offensive.

Also, imagine being someone whose natural body clock is a 3-5am bedtime and
12-2pm wake time. You've adjusted your clock by a couple hours, but some folks
are being told to make 6-8 hour adjustments. And for what? To accommodate a
refusal to accept that not everyone is the same.

~~~
navigatesol
> _The problem isn 't night owls. It's the insistence from others that
> everyone be exactly the same, inborn traits be damned. So yeah, it's
> offensive._

How is it "offensive"? No one is forcing you to live any specific way, but if
you want to fit in with what "society" has deemed "normal", then you have to
follow the norms and rules.

Thinking the rest of the world should cater to your personal circumstances is
offensive. Why should they adapt to you, and not vice versa? Where did this
entitlement come from, that not only should someone provide you with a job,
but also that you should get to decide when and how you'll perform it? If the
"real world" doesn't jibe with you it's your responsibility to find a place
where you fit. There are lots of things I don't like about the modern rat
race, and I adapt.

------
dpeck
| Wake up 2-3 hours earlier than usual and get plenty of outdoor light in the
morning

| Eat breakfast as soon as possible

| Exercise only in the morning

| Have lunch at the same time every day and eat nothing after 19:00

| Banish caffeine after 15:00

| Have no naps after 16:00

| Go to bed 2-3 hours earlier than usual and limit light in the evenings

| Maintain the same sleep and wake times every day

So basically, stop being a night owl. Great advice.

~~~
koboll
Most people who self-apply the title "night owls" are probably artificially
inhibiting their sleep by blue light exposure, so this advice is useful to
many.

~~~
modzu
the distinction between larks and night owls is a robust psychological finding
that predates iphones; there is some evidence to suggest it is genetic; and
night owls represent a significant percentage of the population (about 20%).
that isn't to discount the point about blue light exposure.

~~~
magnamerc
Night owls are absolutely real and they are genetically predisposed. In fact,
night owls will always be night owls and there's really nothing you can do
about it. Everyone should read Dr. Matthew Walker's book 'Why We Sleep'.

------
mysterypie
> _They focused on "night owls", whose bodies drive them to stay up late into
> the night. The problem for many night owls is fitting into a nine-to-five
> world._

An alternative solution is to go ahead and live your life on the 25 or 26 hour
cycle that your "night owl" body demands. You'll need to be single (or
partnered with a similar night owl), have light-proof curtains or blinds, and
work independently (or remotely for an accommodating company). And probably
you'll want to live in a major urban area so you have access to 24-hour
restaurants, supermarkets, and other resources when your constantly shifting
day/night cycle leaves you awake at night.

~~~
ptah
it looks like you can cut diabetes risk and mental health risk by switching
[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-43711631](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-43711631)

~~~
mysterypie
Interesting quote from your article:

> _The paper 's authors ... said it was likely that people with late body
> clocks were being harmed by having to adjust their habits to a "morning lark
> world". Scientists say that about 40% to 70% of a person's circadian rhythm,
> or body clock, is genetic. Part of it you don't have any control over._

In other words, the "night owls" might have health problems because of the
effort and stress of trying to keep their body clock in sync with the rest of
the world. If they could live a 25 or 26 hour day, they might be just as fit
as the 24-hour "morning larks".

~~~
ptah
possibly yes, but how likely is that to happen? I'm actually a proponent of
living in shifts with offices and shops open 24 hours and people being in
"office hours" at different times. it would solve a lot of problems with
traffic etc.

------
ptah
I found it also helps to go to bed before that late night "second wind" kicks
in

~~~
WaltPurvis
True for me. I often get really sleepy around 9-10 PM. When I force myself to
go to bed right then, when my eyelids are heavy, I usually sleep through the
night (with perhaps a 15-minute semi-awake period in the middle) and wake
around dawn feeling well-rested. But if I shrug off my drowsiness, I usually
get a second wind around 11 that will keep me going until at least 1 AM, and
then the next day I don't feel rested at all.

~~~
ehnto
I have vastly different values but same effect. If I sleep when I am drowsy I
sleep solid for 1 to 3 hours, then I am awake for sometimes 3 hours after
that. If I sleep again it's solid until midday, which leaves me waking up at
the same time as before except with 3 hours wasted awake in bed in the middle.

If I take the second wind I am awake until early morning and then out like a
light for a solid 8 hours, again waking at midday.

I have tried dozens of possible schedules and I eventually revert to this if
given time. When working a 9-5 it inevitably turns into an 11-7 and I am tired
all the time regardless.

~~~
ptah
that reminds me: in the past humans had 2 sleeps and an awake period in the
middle. you could try and get up and get some work done in that middle period?
[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16964783](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16964783)

~~~
psalminen
I did that for about 3 months this year. I would go to bed around 6, wake up
at 10. Then I would eat, go for a walk, and work on my hobbies/side projects
until about 3AM and sleep until 7AM. It was honestly a very refreshing way to
live.

------
lostdog
One excerpt from the article [1]:

> Individuals were screened for no diagnoses of sleep or neurological
> disorders via self-report and were not taking any medications that affected
> sleep, melatonin and cortisol rhythms.

I'm really curious if insomnia or DSPD counts as a sleep disorder here.

I guess the core point of the study is, if you force yourself to be on a
morning schedule for a few weeks and follow basic sleep hygiene, then it will
work and you will feel better.

I don't know what to take away from this. I already follow their protocol, but
my sleep onset is still naturally around 1:30am. For me, when I go to bed
earlier, I fall asleep even later than usual, since I just doze for an hour
and am even more awake. When I wake up earlier, I tend to fall asleep during
the day. (I test negative for sleep apnea).

The comments here are pretty split between "I just tried getting up earlier
and it worked great!" and "I do all of this and it doesn't work at all," so my
experience isn't unusual. It reminds me a lot of comments on anti-depressant
efficacy.

So I'll probably do the same thing I do every time a study like this comes
out: Follow the sleep protocol more carefully for a few weeks, then feel
discouraged when it gives no results, then feel even worse from the comments
claiming that I am just being lazy. And then finally I will remember that the
science on this subject is weak and incomplete, that morning people's
unyielding sense of righteousness and morality is based on nothing, and that
maybe someday we will discover universal methods of adjusting sleep schedules.

[1]
[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S138994571...](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1389945719301388)
and if you cannot access the full text, sci-hub.tw may be helpful

------
neves
Well, I don't think these are "simple" tweaks. If you are a single person and
must wake up every day at the same hour, won't do anything at night. If you
just have time to exercise at evening, you wouldn't exercise anymore.

------
seba_dos1
"Scientists studied 21 "extreme night owls" who were going to bed, on average,
at 02:30 and not waking until after 10:00. "

I guess that makes me an extremely extreme night owl then.

------
jechamt
To the other night owls out there, I would love to know:

-Do you struggle to sleep every day? Or is it only as the work/school/lark-world responsibilities progress through the week?

-Would you characterize your difficulty as struggling to sleep or struggling to wake up, or both?

-How does this impact your days off (i.e. weekends), and what is the first and last day off typically like in comparison?

-Is this the kind of struggle that you manage, but it frustrates you, or has other effects, or is it something that regularly threatens to derail your life? (i.e. late for work or class, or other real-life consequences)

-Do you feel like it is something you will always live with, or do you feel that there could be a lifestyle/solution, either involving your change, or accommodating to your current behavior and/or natural inclination?

I'm a night owl, and I won't go into detail about my situation with hope to
not impact responses too much, but it would help me (and hopefully others!) to
understand just how similar/different I may be. Thank you!

------
hacknat
The only real advice here is:

\- Exercise only in the morning

\- Have lunch at the same time every day and eat nothing after 19:00

\- Banish caffeine after 15:00

everything else is "stop being a night owl".

~~~
stronglikedan
"Exercise only in the morning" is terrible advice. I cannot wake up one second
earlier than I must in order to get to work on time. If I followed that
advice, I would never exercise. The best advice is to find time to exercise
_every day_ , no matter what time that may be.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Don't want to? If we redefine exercise as part of the day's work, then is it
better advice?

~~~
stronglikedan
Not until I get paid cold hard cash to do it. ;-)

I'm not saying I don't exercise. I just do it in the evening after work, when
I feel it provides a couple of benefits. (1) I do it consistently every day,
because I feel more "up to it" at that time. (2) I feel that it helps relieve
the stress of my work day, since focusing on my form and nothing else is
almost meditative to me.

I just feel that making people think it's somehow better to exercise only in
the morning will discourage some people from exercising _daily_ , which I feel
is more important than the time of day.

------
glastra
Is there any research around that tests whether self-defined "night owls" are
immune to the hormonal effects of sunrise and sundown (as visual stimuli)?

I once considered myself one, until I started actually rolling the blinds up
in the mornings (Spanish blinds block all light) and staying away from blue
light in the evenings. Being brought up in a cloudy, rainy town and having a
very obstructed view of the outside from my bedroom window didn't help, I must
admit.

Also I wonder if certain habits and behaviors, like dopamine-induced
compulsive social browsing or gaming, food addictions, etc. play a role here.

------
js8
I am a night owl, and tried to shift the sleep cycle to earlier (get in bed
earlier and wake up earlier). However, what I observed (when I went to the bed
earlier) was that then I wake up very very early in the morning (around 5),
but then after about an hour or two I became very sleepy again.

Is this supposed to happen if you try to shift the sleep cycle?

~~~
jchanimal
When you start to get enough sleep, it's normal to become biphasic. That is,
wake up in the night and go back to sleep.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biphasic_and_polyphasic_sleep](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biphasic_and_polyphasic_sleep)

------
anonu
My issue is I get a ton more work done at night when you don't have a million
distractions going on: emails, meetings, loud noises, conversations, etc...
All of that dissipates or disappears into the late evening - and focusing
becomes easier.

------
TheGRS
This article is kind of dumb, basically saying that you shouldn't be a night
owl, but I will admit that my quality of life is improved when I'm in a
natural rhythm of going to bed "on time" and waking up early-ish, getting at
least 7 1/2 hours of sleep per day. Around 2-3 cups of coffee per day seem
fine, anymore and I need to scale it back. One cup doesn't do it for me. I
also now get to work early and don't stress if I'm occasionally late.

The early bird gets the worm, so no matter how much we'd like to adjust
society to be accepting of different sleep schedules, early risers will always
have a natural advantage.

------
mkagenius
Not really sure about the sunlight in the morning. If you can force yourself
to a early sleep (either by tiring yourself one day) or slowly shifting it
early each day, you will be able to change your sleep cycle.

~~~
Fellshard
At least personally, I have found sunlight makes waking easier, smoother. So
it's probably one factor out of several.

------
chadlavi
these "tweaks" boil down to "stop being a night owl." If I could wake up hours
earlier and make myself go to sleep hours earlier I wouldn't be in this mess,
BBC.

------
molbioguy
One item mentioned in the article that matches my personal experience is the
importance of sleep consistency or regularity. Waking up at the same time and
sleeping at the same time each night has been beneficial, even if those
regular times are shifted from what the article suggests. There was a study
that touched on this [0].

[0]
[https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-03171-4](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-03171-4)

------
jlarocco
I personally enjoy being a night owl. I get plenty of excercise, sunlight, and
sleep, and I've never had a problem at any of my workplaces for arriving late
(say between 10 and 11) and then working late to compensate.

Furthermore, the article is common sense. Obviously, shifting my daily routine
3 hours would shift my daily routine 3 hours, and I'd eventually get used to
it, but why would I want to?

------
nr152522
A stalk delivered me a child and in one single transformation, I turned from
night owl into Super Lark!!

------
chillytoes
I struggled with insomnia for about 3 years before finding something which
worked for me: magnesium supplements. Learned about them through a random
Hacker News comment.

------
danschumann
Can someone reply to this comment if they see it in a few weeks and see if
it's been working for me? :D

------
viburnum
For me going to bed at 1am or 8pm works, but if I try anything in the middle,
I just stay up until 1am.

------
person_of_color
Anything to help STAY asleep in the night?

I've lost the ability to sleep in one sitting and it irks me.

