
Massachusetts Right to Repair Initiative - jacquesm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts_Right_to_Repair_Initiative
======
oppositelock
For some background, I'm a car nut and a longtime software engineer, and I
love to tinker with my cars.

Cars are getting increasingly more difficult to work on yourself, regardless
of manufacturer.

Early, purely mechanical cars were easy to work with, there was no magic,
everything which made the car work was removable, tweakable.

Then came fuel injection. It was a mish-mash of incompatible technologies and
everyone doing their own proprietary thing. The gov't mandated the OBD and
OBD-II standards into cars to allow independent servicing of the car,
primarily for emissions reasons. For a while, things were simple again, since
you could do basic interfacing with the cars yourself, clear codes, etc. The
actual ECU maps weren't readily available, but easy enough to reverse engineer
since you could memory dump the ECU through an exposed connector or even
through the OBD-II port.

Then came air bags and auxiliary safety systems. These were locked down and
not subject to OBD rules. To reset the air bag light after fixing a bad
connection requires dealer-specific tools, an independent can't do it without
acquiring these tools, which are usually prohibitively expensive, or simply
not available.

Today, ECU's are encrypted, impenetrable, and export the legally required
minimum OBD-II spec, and that's it. You usually have to take it to the dealer
for any proprietary codes. As for tuning A/F maps, forget about it.

Some cars have huge enthusiast communities, so some ECU's get cracked, or you
replace the ECU with a completely open one, but then sacrifice lots of the
vehicle's features.

It's getting more difficult to be a weekend garage mechanic. Brakes and
suspensions are still easy, but the engine is becoming impenetrable. A recent
BMW, in which all I did was replace a dead battery, required a trip to the
dealer to "accept" this new battery. The battery monitoring system threw a
code which an independent can't clear.

~~~
walrus01
and this is why certain 4x4 enthusiasts enjoy driving 25 year old diesel
vehicles.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
Only the hipsters and the luddites seek those out. They're too overprices for
something you'll intentionally drive into a tree at some point. Most 4x4
enthusiasts are using pre-OBD2 and 1st gen OBD2 vehicles since they're cheap
and plentiful.

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
I like my old 12 valve Cummins because it has power, _and_ gets 24 MPG on the
highway.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
24mpg at what speed in what conditions? Low speed in the plains states, the
kind of speed that nobody actually drives at, I can believe that. We all know
how aerodynamics work (I'm betting you drive a 2nd gen)...

We both know a stock 12v is grossly under-powered by early-mid 2000s
standards.

And if you've got a close to stock (nobody gets 24mpg with 35s and a lift) 12v
powered vehicle that isn't a completely clapped out POS or very, very rusty
you're probably not wheeling it much if at all...

Was I close?

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
Driving the speed limit, on the highway. If you ever hear the turbo, back out
of it. IP timing was tweaked just a bit, but other than that it is a bone
stock 1996 Dodge 3500. And, yeah, it's a clapped out just rolled 300,000 mile
truck.

------
gregpilling
This is a very old, very long running battle. Henry Ford said he would give
the cars away if he could get all the repair and parts money later. Mr. Ford
obviously understood the Gillette business plan.

The OBD2 connector in your car is one result of this battle from 1996. Every
brand of car before that had a different plug, nothing was standardized before
that. OBD2 fixed that, caused other minor issues like plug was the same, but
some wires were different.

I use to sell automotive repair information and equipment. 15 years ago I was
selling 5 years of info for $10,000 . It was 200 ish per month on financing.
Yes, they financed future software releases, five years ahead of time........
think about that for a sec.

Now its all online, you pay a monthly fee to access.
[https://www.shopkeypro.com/](https://www.shopkeypro.com/) now only $169 and
it DOES NOT include everything, only what the manufacturers will share.

The current offerings by the way are no better than 15 years ago. The drawings
look like a child did them with crayon. The software is crap, but there is
basically no competition, so who cares?

My friends that own auto shops tell me that they are not renewing, many of
them say they get better info from Youtube, and it has video that the repair
manuals don't.

If anyone wants to disrupt auto repair information, there are 300,000
businesses out there that need it. Snap-on/Mitchell sucks, and the product is
severely dated. Last time I looked at their shop management software it was
running a MS Access database. Plain text data, you could hijack their customer
records into a SaaS and include repair info from Youtube. Shops pay
$169-hundreds more per month now for a crappy product.

PM me if you want to discuss further.

I hope the MA repair info law goes nationwide. We have only been waiting 100
years.

~~~
jacquesm
> I hope the MA repair info law goes nationwide.

Worldwide.

~~~
oppositelock
We need more than the MA law. We need to have the law change to permit
completely replacing engine control systems while maintaining a street legal
car. There are open ECU's available which you can retrofit into any car, but
they're illegal for street use because of the way emissions laws are
structured.

The US law is very proscriptive - you musth have the factory ECU with the
factory tune with the factory catalyst, etc. Instead, we need results based
laws for this stuff, something like a limit on engine emissions on a
particular duty cycle, and leave it to the aftermarket companies to figure
that out.

Right now, most engine mods you do are not technically legal, especially in CA
and the handful of other states which have adopted its emissions laws, so you
try to hide what you've done and not get caught, even though you have
perfectly clean emissions. Unfortunately, lots of people turn their cars into
gross polluters because they like the loudness of straight pipes or want the
extra few HP from an open exhaust, and in an attempt to stop these, the laws
are making it more difficult for the rest of us.

------
DanBlake
I believe this is a big deal in regards to Tesla. Tesla locks down their cars
to a insane degree- To a point where if you fuck around too much, apparently
they call you up telling you to knock it off. With this law, I would imagine
tesla would have little to no leverage with those folk

Good reading here :
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11233898](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11233898)

~~~
mikeash
Who did they call?

Tesla currently makes service manuals and tools available (for a hefty fee) to
third parties, but only to accredited body shops, or residents of
Massachusetts. I'm sure that last part is not a coincidence.

~~~
akama
The primary example that he might be referring to is this one [1]. It's
someone reporting on their experience connecting to an ethernet port in his
tesla and getting a call from Tesla to please stop.

[http://jalopnik.com/the-tesla-model-s-is-basically-a-good-
lo...](http://jalopnik.com/the-tesla-model-s-is-basically-a-good-looking-it-
depart-1558372928)

~~~
mikeash
Fun! At least it sounds like they were nice about it.

~~~
michaelmrose
Nice about telling you how you could use the car you purchased from them in
what universe is this reasonable.

~~~
mikeash
I don't see that they told him anything, they just asked.

~~~
zanny
They remotely disabled the port, that isn't asking.

~~~
manarth
They remotely disabled the port? I can't see anything in the article to
suggest that…where did you read this?

~~~
cowsandmilk
To clarify, they disabled it for everyone in a software update[1]. Some
comments made it appear they just disabled it for this guy due to his hacking,
but it was for everyone.

[1]
[https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/691884/](https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/691884/)

------
avs733
Another car nut here...

I think it is worth noting that Click and Clack from Car Talk on NPR where big
proponents of the MA bill.

As with all things, everything is hackable. I previously owned a Subaru
BRZ...the tuner community had several options of people who had reverse
engineered the entire ECU and made new programming and maps available. They
even built new functionality that allowed the cruise control stalk and other
secondary controls to change engine settings on the fly.

No one from Subaru/Toyota offered this, although when the car was launched
they had promised that they would. But with an Arduino and a CAN shield, and a
little patience you can begin to sniff things, they don't bother to secure
them.

Now I have a Chevy volt. I wish there was a bigger mod community, but mine is
still under warranty. Electric motorcycles like those made by Zero tend to
have different 'modes' that allow some customization of things like
acceleration profiles and (especially) regenerative braking. I wish I could
retune when the volt uses the engine and how...the car is a comprise on many
variables. I wish the volt had that, but it will never happen for real
mainline consumer products. After the warranty is up...mine may find itself
with a bigger battery.

------
tibbon
I own a vehicle (2014 BMW R1200GS motorcycle) in Massachusetts where I reside.
I purchased it here, and it's registered/titled/taxed/etc in-state.

Am I to understand that I should be able to get access to all the same
information, documents, code, software tools, protocols about my vehicle as a
dealer? For free?

BMW hasn't released their computer interface information publicly about my
vehicle AFAIK, and I really want to build some logging/diagnostic tools on my
own, but lacking documentation I have to reverse-engineer from square one.

How (if possible) can I take advantage of this?

~~~
chadzawistowski
For reference on how the law can be interpreted...

Tesla provides access to the service manuals by law. But they won't let you
purchase them. You must _rent_ them at $30/hr, $100/day, $350/mo, or $3000/yr.

[http://syonyk.blogspot.com/2016/03/is-tesla-building-
throwaw...](http://syonyk.blogspot.com/2016/03/is-tesla-building-throwaway-
cars.html)

~~~
userbinator
It's not ideal at all, but if I were in that position I'd pay the $350 and
spend a month downloading and saving everything (good thing DRM is still
breakable)... how much did the Tesla cost? An extra $350 doesn't seem all that
much more to get a set of comprehensive docs.

------
Shivetya
this is a big deal to me as I work in this industry. the idea that car
manufacturers can lock you out of the physical and computerized aspect of your
car is disturbing as you have bought the vehicle. Independent shops came about
as people wanted alternatives, either for better pricing, service, location,
or availability. There are many governing bodies concerned with providing
customers with the means to know a persons level of expertise.

black box items, whether its cars, phones, or computers, are things you never
truly can own nor trust.

~~~
rcthompson
The Internet of Things You Can't Own

------
kylehotchkiss
This whole debate about car repairability makes me want to buy my long term
dream vehicle now and not later. I currently have a hyundai with a GSM chip
somewhere inside, doing heaven knows what. I don't want my car talking to a
cell phone tower!

~~~
nxzero
I would likely agree but curious, why exactly do you not want the GSM chip in
the car and what would lost by not having it?

~~~
swiley
It could be doing OTA firmware updates for example.

~~~
kaybe
Isn't it also telling the GSM network where the car is? (Could be a feature of
course, but of course also very problematic.)

------
nxzero
Making autos easy to maintain, modular, etc. would likely be more useful law
than requiring access to what is likely very expensive equipment and overly
complex documentation.

~~~
shimon
How could you legislate that without restricting novel developments in car
technology? Requiring the electronic control and diagnostic systems to speak
an owner-accessible protocol should give a lot of the benefits while still
allowing legitimate complexity.

~~~
CamperBob2
True in the general case, but in a few specific cases like swappable battery
form factors and interface protcols for EVs, government-mandated standards
could catapult the market ahead by decades.

 _If_ those standards were well-thought-out. I know, I know, good luck with
that...

~~~
shimon
Great point. It's facile to dismiss regulation as a whole when in fact well-
crafted regulations can be quite beneficial.

------
jstanek
We have a similar initiative here in Minnesota:

[https://minnesota.repair.org/](https://minnesota.repair.org/)

I really like this idea and would like to see it come to fruition. It's a nice
check on consumerism and planned obsolescence.

~~~
midwester
The link referred to a bill that does not include the right to repair.

------
NPMaxwell
Anyone know what's up with Salisbury and Groveland? Every other county > 70%
pro. They were > 70% against

------
vilhelm_s
And then what happened? Has this made a difference in practice?

~~~
ocdtrekkie
Well, I believe this is the only state where you can even 'rent' the Tesla
service manual. Solely because it's legally required in this state.

~~~
smitherfield
Yes, but they charge you like $10,000 [edit: hyperbole, see justinlardinois'
comment below for the exact figures] or something. So the initiative
ultimately had a bit of a glaring loophole.

~~~
justinlardinois
Well, not that much, but still very expensive.

[https://service.teslamotors.com/](https://service.teslamotors.com/)

$30/hour, and various other pricings up to $3000/year. The latter is probably
feasible for an independent service shop, but none of this would ever work for
an individual.

~~~
smitherfield
Thanks for doing the research! (The $10,000 figure was intentional hyperbole,
but I knew it was very high).

It's probably infeasible for anyone, even a business. To be able to invest
$3,000/year for a Tesla service manual you need to have the know-how to repair
Teslas, and to have the know-how you need to have the service manual. Chicken-
and-egg problem.

So, in practice, a "right to repair" Teslas for individuals or businesses will
have to wait for if and when the manual hits torrent sites. Not that I blame
them for not wanting amateurs attempting to repair their bleeding-edge high-
tech gizmos with explosive batteries.

~~~
gamache
$3000 is a new set of wrenches. Definitely not nothing, but very much
achievable for even a small car shop.

~~~
CapitalistCartr
I use wrenches on every car. To invest in Tesla-specific tools, I have to
believe I will have enough Tesla traffic to justify it. Which at present
doesn't happen. So an owner wanting to tinker quite simply can't.

~~~
chc
An owner wanting to tinker presumably doesn't care about market demand for
their tinkering, so why can't they? It's not like $250/mo is prohibitive to
somebody who wants to tinker with their $100,000 luxury car.

------
SEJeff
But even with the manual, you won't get access to the software for a Tesla, so
you're still locked out. Or am I missing something obvious here?

------
acd
I hope this can spread to other areas as well. In the age of global warming,
throw and buy instead of repairing your broken items seems not to be a waste.

70% of a mobile phone can be recycled the rest is non recoverable waste.

------
voltagex_
I connected an OBD-II bluetooth dongle to a Hyundai i30. Unbeknownst to me it
started draining the battery reasonably quickly. I forgot it was plugged in
and then the car wasn't "starting well" (taking longer than normal to turn
over). The mechanic accused me of flashing the ECU and only checked the
diagnostic port after reflashing it and changing the battery. I don't know
enough to know if I was at fault or not.

~~~
jbangert
Change your mechanic. The cheap (elm327) dongles can't write firmware onto
ecus in any setup I am aware of -- elm327 is its own protocol and only
supports the obd 2 standard operations (and those poorly). Of course a bad
dongle could do something electrical to your ecu, but a reflash would never be
necessary. Usually, when your car doesn't start well after a discharge, just
remove the source of the drain ( i.e. Don't leave the Doyle plugged in) and go
for a nice 30 minute drive -- most likely the battery will be fully recharged.

~~~
RealityVoid
Why can't they reflash firmware tho? If it give you access to the CAN bus, you
should be able to output whatever the heck you want. No?

------
sp8
Where do tools like the Automatic adapter [1] fit in to this? I don't own one
but it connects to OBD-II and my understanding is can be used to do things
such as clear warnings etc.

[1] [https://www.automatic.com/home/](https://www.automatic.com/home/)

~~~
maxerickson
They have less and less access to vehicle systems. The current top comment
talks about it:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11427018](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11427018)

------
rasz_pl
similar initiative in NY
[https://newyork.repair.org/](https://newyork.repair.org/)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcuAF3OJIoU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcuAF3OJIoU)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIy0zlXmt2A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIy0zlXmt2A)

------
ashitlerferad
Could this apply to software like iOS as well?

------
acd
I hope this can go into other areas as well.

------
marincounty
California Right to Repair Initiative--next!

This Initiative is what I've been waiting for. I will happily accept
information from automotive manufactures, but in the future I want it all;I
want any repair information on any product brought into this state.

That will include: vechicles, electronics, appliances, etc., and yes, even
mechanical watches.

Being able to buy parts(if parts are still available) should be a right too?

~~~
AnimalMuppet
Ah, but you see, parts _aren 't_ still available. Our dealers have some, but
those are actually independent businesses from us...

