
The Disappearance of Self in Japan - wallflower
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/pico-iyer/disappearance-self-japan_b_8258678.html
======
dicemoose
Putting aside the content of the article, the photo of the "Cherry tree with
temple in background. Chubu Region, Nagano Prefecture, Japan. " is actually a
photo of Matsumoto Castle (in Nagano Prefecture).

~~~
dfcowell
Came here to say this. I'm also pretty certain that the picture of the boat on
the lake is a painting, not a photo.

28 years of living in Japan and the author can't identify Matsumoto Castle
(one of the country's most notable) at a glance? Not a good start.

~~~
jpatokal
As noted, they likely had nothing to do with it... but I take all of Iyer's
writing about Japan with a grain of salt, because despite those 28 years, he
can't read a word of Japanese and is apparently proud of it.

[http://www.onbeing.org/program/pico-iyer-the-art-of-
stillnes...](http://www.onbeing.org/program/pico-iyer-the-art-of-
stillness/transcript/7635)

~~~
dahdum
Thanks for pointing that out, considering he can't really participate in the
culture or even read Japanese literature he has a pretty limited perspective I
wager.

From article: \------------ I can't read — I can't — to this day, I can't read
or write Japanese. And I'm at the mercy of things around me. I can't have the
illusion that I'm on top of things. Japan was a place that I had a huge amount
to learn from, and I'm still learning it.

~~~
unprepare
This has to be hyperbole - how can you live in a country for 28 years without
learning what a single word looks like?

reminds me of teens today who feign ignorance of popular music and only listen
to classic rock or some other specific genre and love to criticise others'
taste in music.

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chrismealy
A linguist once told me (angrily) that Japanese sentences do have subjects,
they're just very easily implied from context.

~~~
gizmo686
Almost any time someone tries to make a point about a culture based on their
language, ignore them. Languages, for the most part, evolve on their own,
independent of cultural considerations. For example, in Spanish, the word for
house (casa) is female, just like (almost?) all nouns in Spanish are gendered.
This does not mean that gender plays a stronger role in Spanish speaking
cultures than in cultures that speak a less gendered language, it is simply
the way the language evolved.

It is worth pointing out that English also lets you omit the subject in some
circumstances, namly commands. For example, we consider "clear your room" to
be a complete sentence, despite the fact that it omits the subject, "you".

~~~
anthracis417
English almost always drops the pronoun in the imperative, for example like
Portuguese and the familiar form of you in German. English doesn't really ever
drop the subject of the sentence otherwise...

~~~
sdrothrock
Sure, it does. If you're talking casually with friends, it's pretty common to
drop the initial pronoun, especially when it's implied from context... which
is exactly what happens in Japanese, except the context is larger.

"[You] Gonna eat that pizza?"

"[I'm] Gonna go to the store."

"Where's John?" / "[He's] Eating."

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smegel
You know if you go to Japan, beneath the mystique is a fairly normal country
with fairly normal people going about fairly normal day to day lives.

~~~
onetwotree
I'm a big fan of Zen and it's ilk, but the Japan fetish in this article is way
too strong. I bet the author thinks that samurai swords were way better than
their contemporaries in Europe

~~~
bpodgursky
Yeah, this annoys me. Japanese swords were folded over hundreds of times not
because it was a superior crafting technique, but because they were using
inferior steel with more impurities.

~~~
dragontamer
Damascus Steel is probably the coolest kind of sword from the past. Carbon
nanotubes have been found in ancient Damascus steel swords, proving that the
advanced metallurgy strengthened Damascus Steel above and beyond all other
steel of that era.

And while Japanese metallurgy exists today... the secret of Damascus steel has
been lost in time. No one knows how to make it anymore.

\---------------

With regards to Katanas vs Longswords...

Katanas are almost equivalent to Long Swords. The martial arts between the two
styles are relatively similar. Sometimes Katanas were dual-wielded with
wakizashi, while Long Swords would sometimes be dual-wielded with a dagger.

Sometimes Katanas are wielded with two hands, but sometimes you switch to one-
hand for extra reach. Ditto with Long Swords (being used with "Bastard Sword"
style)

\------------

In all cases, the fetish with swords is universal across cultures. Polearms
were the king of the battlefield in both the West and in the East... and the
favored weapons of soldiers, and yet the stories all glorify sword-wielders.
Swords were expensive in all cultures, and are therefore associated with the
respective nobility class.

~~~
Balgair
Meh, you can get carbon nanotubes out of soot too [0], they occur in any high
carbon and high temp environment. Their existence in something is not proof
that metallurgy is advanced in any sense, just luck.

European and Japanese fighting styles are also very different, as the katana
is made with much more brittle steels [1]. In Japan, the block is not hard and
the other blade has to slide along your's to not break the sword.

You use Damascus steel if your steel is of poor quality or you don't have the
chemical know how to make good steel. You do what you can with what you have.

Still, swords cost a lot to make and end up as a status symbol. Look at the
Japanese officers in WW2 [2].

[0][http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1044580305...](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1044580305001051)

[1][https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/5729/how-do-
tama...](https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/5729/how-do-tamahagane-
damascus-and-toledo-steel-compare)

[2][https://41.media.tumblr.com/ab40ee35c57c64a56570035045f61c4e...](https://41.media.tumblr.com/ab40ee35c57c64a56570035045f61c4e/tumblr_nwhsjgxrz01tjjchto1_500.jpg)

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mavdi
I've been very lucky to have visited Japan. I can say, having visited many
other places, there is no such place like it. The social awareness of the
Japanese people is on a level never seen elsewhere. One truly great nation,
with a truly great population.

~~~
PeCaN
Social awareness? I'd be interested if you elaborate, what makes them more
"socially aware" than any other culture?

What do you think about the alleged xenophobia?

Personally I'd love to visit Japan sometime.

~~~
justusw
I can give you some examples for what can be described as micro-aggression
(even if SJWs are totally abusing this term and take away any legitimacy when
claiming to be a victim of it) Keep in mind that either of these things happen
to me on a daily basis.

1) I speak JLPT ~N2 level with almost no accent, but get handed the English
menu in a restaurant in Tokyo.

2) I get complimented for being able to eat various Japanese things (natto,
umeboshi) or being able to handle chopsticks.

3) I get compliments for being able to read Kanji after talking to someone for
the past few hours. How do they think I learned the language? With romaji?

4) Speaking to staff in Japanese, staff answers to my Japanese friends instead
of speaking with me.

The last three ones are almost symptomatic for 日本人論, where it is common to
think that certain Japanese cultural habits or attributes cannot be mastered
or understood by outsiders, thus it is necessary to point them out or try to
compensate for them.

Some of these attributes are reasoned to exist because of biological
differences (google Japanese Brain), others because of the 'rich' cultural
heritage of Japan that was never tainted by other countries (as if China and
Korea are not close to Japan...).

Don't take this as me being unhappy to be in Japan. I just wish that people
were a bit more self-aware around here. The problem is just that there is not
the necessary vocabulary around to address these problems. It's not as if 人種差別
is a popular subject.

~~~
jason_tko
I've lived in Japan for 14 years, and I'm doing a startup here.

In my experience, if you stay in Japan for more than a year, you go through
several phases.

The first phase is confusion. Why am I being treated differently, even though
I'm doing and saying the same things as another Japanese person.

The second phase that quickly follows is anger. This is bullshit! I know my
accent and pronunciation is correct! Why are they saying they don't understand
me! WTF!

The third is dull acceptance. You're not going to change Japan. They're not
like this because they're bad people. They're just inexperienced with
foreigners and foreign things, and they're overcompensating and trying to be
nice in the way they think is nice.

The final stage is fun. This is the best stage. You understand all the social
patterns and why everything is happening, so you just relax and start enjoying
it.

When you go into a restaurant and order in Japanese and the waiters response
is "I can't speak English! Sorry!" you respond in Japanese "Oh, I'm terribly
sorry. Is there anyone here who speaks Japanese?"

This often (not always) has the interesting effect of changing the "foreigners
cannot speak or understand Japanese" mindset, if only for a moment.

Sounds like you're in between stages two and three. It gets better.

To quickly respond to your list:

1) It's your face. It's nothing personal. They're just trying to be
accommodating.

2) My typical response is "I've been using chopsticks since I've been four,
since we used to order Chinese takeout. So complimenting me on my chopstick
skills feels the same as me complimenting you on your deft fork techniques."
This may result in enlightening your Japanese friends as to why it's
challenging to be overly grateful for their well-intended compliment.

3) Kanji is hard. They're just impressed that you can read it, since they
spent years as kids studying and repeating kanji over and over again. Having
said that, my typical response here is "Actually, I think English is much,
much harder than Japanese. Sure Japanese is difficult, but it's logical.
English is full of exceptions, weird spellings, inconsistent grammar, because
it's a mix of languages. If I wasn't born a native speaker, I can't imagine
how I'd learn English from scratch."

4) Yep - you're definitely not alone. It can be hard to avoid feeling a bit
slighted here. If you haven't seen this already:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLt5qSm9U80](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLt5qSm9U80)
I gently correct people here. "Excuse me - since I'm ordering, could you
please look at me?"

By the way, thinking of these things as "micro-aggressions" is a terrible way
to think. They're not being aggressive. They're often just not very familiar
with foreign people, and they're doing their best to be accommodating. Once
you get to stage four, this becomes a lot easier.

Good luck, and don't forget to swing by the Hacker News Tokyo Meetups if
you're in Tokyo -
[https://hntokyo.doorkeeper.jp/](https://hntokyo.doorkeeper.jp/) \- we're just
about to announce another one.

~~~
justusw
Thank you a lot for the nice response and the kind explanation. You are
definitely right that there are never any bad intentions behind the various
experiences that can be had as a foreigner.

Perhaps my problem is not really the experience itself, but that I don't know
how to deal with certain situations in a smooth and sociable way. I also have
not lived in Japan long enough to really master all social interactions. It's
quite easy to forget when you're from another culture how much routine your
own culture already has and how different it can be.

So, stage4目指せ!

~~~
jason_tko
My pleasure. Lack of experience in the unique social situations that Japan
presents is also completely understandable, and part of the adventure.

頑張れ！

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FreedomToCreate
For anyone who didn't take the time to read the entire thing,go back and find
the section about the shopkeepers and read that. It pretty much sums out what
the author is trying to get at.

------
known
I'd begin with
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases)

~~~
twblalock
And
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essentialism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essentialism)

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unholythree
First, I'd be pissed at the asshole that failed to tie their boat up properly.
Second, I'd be excited at the prospect of a free boat.

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icanhackit
I think the author's location skews their perspective. Kyoto is quite
different culturally to the big cities, and you'll find the same kind of
"individualism" that you find in Western cities in Tokyo etc. By
"individualism" I mean the poisoned kind where you're defined by the articles-
of-self you've purchased, whether it's a Gucci bag on your shoulder, a
collection of charms dangling from your wrist, where you go to eat and what
phone you have as opposed to the form of individualism which is to define
yourself by what you do and how you conduct yourself.

~~~
sosborn
> Kyoto is quite different culturally to the big cities

Having lived in and around Kyoto I would disagree. There are some minor
differences, but it doesn't add up to a major difference.

~~~
threeseed
I've lived in Kyoto and Tokyo and tend to agree with you there. Although
people outside of Tokyo are much friendlier in general. Which is the same of
most big cities/areas outside of them.

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mirimir
> As a result, perhaps, my Japanese neighbors seem unusually good at adapting
> themselves to circumstance -- fire or nuclear meltdown, sudden earthquake or
> infidelity (to which the local response is nearly always "It can't be
> helped") -- and unusually good at following orders (hence, perhaps, their
> celebrated brutality in war).

But orders come from somewhere, no? From some self, no?

------
Datsundere
JIBUNWO

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michaelbuddy
Pico Iyer the author should not be writing or submitting for the Huff Post. A
person has to have standards.

~~~
maw
Too true, although you could have stopped after the word "writing". :)

I quickly decided that the article was full of crap and closed the tab. I only
learned that it was written by one of the authors fullest of shit in a world
full of many full of shit authors due to your comment.

~~~
powvans
After reading this comment, I Googled "pico iyer full of crap" and this
comment was the second result.

I was hoping to get some insight into why you guys have such a negative
reaction to this guy. Instead I found out that Google has gotten scary fast at
indexing.

~~~
maw
Fair question. To me he comes across as remarkably insincere, someone with a
history of publishing and saying things no properly skeptical person could
take seriously.

