

Transformer Prime Sold with Locked Bootloader - jdhopeunique
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/mobile-news/transformer-prime-buyers-believe-unlocked-bootloader-is-an-inalienable-right/6276

======
raganwald
Myth: Android puts users in control.

Fact: Android puts _manufacturers_ in control.

Some manufacturers, of course, choose to allow users to exercise some control
over their devices. But "Android" is no guarantee of this.

~~~
Splines
And that's what rubs me the wrong way about the state of the world with mobile
devices.

I like fiddling with my hardware and trying different OSs on it. I like being
able to upgrade my OS as I see fit, and it's a shame that I can only do that
on a very small selection of hardware.

Asus is treading into interesting waters here. What if the Transformer Prime
was a laptop that shipped with Windows 8?

~~~
freehunter
This is why it still confuses me to this day that the hacker/computer literate
community put their backing in Android instead of WebOS. Sure Android was
released sooner (but not sooner-enough to have insurmountable traction), but
the Palm Pre actually allowed for booting a kernel over USB and gave root
access by typing in the Konami code. The Touchpad allows for running of
Debian, quite well!

WebOS had no chance to succeed because the community it catered to chose the
Google name and unfulfilled promises over actual freedom.

~~~
commandar
Android has an active hacker community because you can grab the code from git
and build a working Android system.

This is exactly what the CyanogenMod team does; Steve Kondik has even started
referring to CM as an Android _distribution_ ala Debian as opposed to a simple
set of mods or patches.

As much as I love WebOS, that just plain isn't possible with that platform.

(this was posted from WebOS on a Touchpad that also has Android installed as
dual boot. Care to show me the Android devices that have been hacked to run
WebOS?)

~~~
freehunter
But you don't need to fork your own distribution from source to change
everything about WebOS. New kernels and new environments are common, even
before it became open source. The only thing closed source was the Luna
desktop environment.

I fail to see how your last point proves anything, all points considered.

~~~
commandar
>The only thing closed source was the Luna desktop environment.

So the only thing that was closed source was the part of the system that the
user directly interacts with. Gotcha.

Andy Rubin's definition of open is the one that a lot of the hacker community
can abide by:

<https://twitter.com/#!/arubin/statuses/27808662429>

It's _impossible_ to do anything similar with WebOS right now.

>I fail to see how your last point proves anything, all points considered.

The kind of people that care about being able to hack on a system want _full_
access to the system. Android provides that. The fact that Android is running
on devices that the manufacturers of those devices never intended to run
Android proves it.

People that want open devices will generally prefer open software. There's
absolutely nothing befuddling about that.

~~~
freehunter

      The kind of people that care about being able to hack on a system want full access to the system. Android provides that. The fact that Android is running on devices that the manufacturers of those devices never intended to run Android proves it.
    

The kind of people that care about being able to hack on a system should care
that their device was designed to be hacked on and isn't going to force them
to break it. Palm/HP hardware provides that. The fact that Debian/Ubuntu runs
with very little modification and Android runs quite readily proves it.

WebOS never realized its full potential due to market forces, but the fact
that the hardware still stands and is so easily hackable is a testament to the
hardware design. It strikes me as odd that people are so willing to defend
Android, in all its general customer unfriendliness at the hands of
carriers/manufacturers, but since it's "open source", they're willing to
overlook closed hardware and locked bootloaders. The Pre was (more) open
hardware with a (mostly) open system, rooted by default with no carrier
lockdowns.

Palm even gave directions on their website on how to launch a new kernel, and
supported a side-loading market for kernel modifications. And they gave
directions on how to unbrick your device should the new kernel fail. Is that
not hacker-friendly enough?

~~~
commandar
>Is that not hacker-friendly enough?

You're focusing on _hardware_ when everyone else is talking about software.
The point is that Android can be made to run on arbitrary hardware because
it's open.

> but since it's "open source",

Explain the use of scare quotes. Android is, by every reasonable definition,
open source software.

By any reasonable definition, Android as an operating system was more open
than WebOS from day one. I can build a complete, working Android system and
run Android applications on it if I want. You cannot do the same with WebOS.

>The Pre was (more) open hardware with a (mostly) open system, rooted by
default with no carrier lockdowns.

Except you were locked into Palm (and _only_ Palm) hardware by the license.
The Android platform is completely portable; the WebOS platform is not.

~~~
freehunter
I didn't intend for that to be scare quotes, I intended for it to sarcasm
quotes. People hide behind the open source name even if open source means
nothing. It doesn't matter if your OS is open source if your hardware can't be
made to boot your newly-compiled version. WebOS, in my opinion, balances base-
Linux with open (enough) hardware better than the Android phones with an open
source system (except for 3.0) and completely closed hardware.

I'm not talking strictly hardware, though you may be talking strictly
software. That may be where the disagreement is stemming from. The point of
the article is about the locked bootloader restricting access to the hardware.
I'm posing my opinion that Palm WebOS devices were more open than a good
number of Android-based handsets, overall. With market support, WebOS could
have been the open-iPhone. I put "open source" in sarcasm-quotes because the
tradeoff is freedom of your hardware.

~~~
commandar
>I'm not talking strictly hardware, though you may be talking strictly
software. That may be where the disagreement is stemming from. The point of
the article is about the locked bootloader restricting access to the hardware.

The thing you're overlooking is that it's _possible_ to run Android on
hardware without these conditions. If you want a completely unlocked phone,
there's the Nexus series in the mainstream and there are other devices that
are relatively open on the hardware side as well.

The point is, you had the _option_ of running Android on any hardware you
liked. With WebOS, you had no option but Palm. That's the very definition of
vendor lock-in.

Nobody particularly _cared_ about being able to install Debian on the Pre,
because Debian will run on any hardware you throw at it because Debian is open
software and can be made to run on anything you want it to. It doesn't matter
that locked down devices exist as long as open ones do, because the software
will run on any device.

This is something that Android can do that WebOS couldn't.

ETA:

I think the tl;dr of this would be "Hardware is a commodity; software isn't."

------
mattwdelong
Just did some research, and I don't know about the validity of the statement
[1], but it was said that Asus Taiwan [2] released a press statement, which
said:

> BOOTLOADER: they won't unlock the bootloader, and the purpose of locked
> bootloader is to support media renting service (due to DRM restrictions, and
> many entertainment industries requested it) on the device and its stability.
> BUT, they are working on releasing a bootloader unlocking tool for those
> users who would like to unlock it. however, the use of this unlocker tool
> will void the warranty immediately.

Perhaps someone with Mandarin could visit the page and verify the statement?
If that's the case, it's a perfectly reasonable response.

[1]
[https://www.facebook.com/asus.n.america/posts/27125844960098...](https://www.facebook.com/asus.n.america/posts/271258449600988)
[2] <https://www.facebook.com/asusclub.tw?sk=wall>

------
alexlitov
Taken from their Facebook page:

Regarding the bootloader, the reason we chose to lock it is due to content
providers' requirement for DRM client devices to be as secure as possible.
ASUS supports Google DRM in order to provide users with a high quality video
rental experience. Also, based on our experience, users who choose to root
their devices risk breaking the system completely. However, we know there is
demand in the modding community to have an unlocked bootloader. Therefore,
ASUS is developing an unlock tool for that community. Please do note that if
you choose to unlock your device, the ASUS warranty will be void, and Google
video rental will also be unavailable because the device will be no longer
protected by security mechanism.

~~~
r00fus
Why is it that a bootloader needs to be locked in order for rentals to be
available? Hasn't iTunes movie rentals/purchases proven that a relatively open
OS + DRM is adequate for content protection?

It's shit like this combined with a distinct lack of upgrades from the Android
manufacturers that keep me using an iPad or (far more open) laptop for my
computing needs... for tablet computing, Apple will always have an advantage
if things like CM9 aren't allowed, since Apple builds both iOS and the
hardware.

------
dkhenry
It is great to see this issue getting some media attention. There is no reason
whatsoever to lock this bootloader.

~~~
technoslut
The only reason they could do this is to curb customer support calls.

I don't like what Asus did either, since this is supposed to be an open source
product, but I'm willing to bet that Asus already believes that:

a. They're the #3 tablet behind the iPad and Kindle Fire in terms of sales and
they may be fine with that as long as they're the primary Android-based
alternative.

b. They're the only successful pure Android tablet maker whose design
aesthetics rivals the iPad.

~~~
avree
I've never really understood this logic; is there really a large percentage of
people who flash a custom ROM and then call customer support for help?

This is just conjecture, but I feel like those two groups (people who flash
custom ROMs versus people who call customer support) are fairly opposite...

~~~
marshray
I agree, but in searching around on some Samsung forums last night I did come
across someone who had accidentally gotten into "reflash mode" (or whatever
they call it) and had no idea how to fix it (i.e., hold down the power button
for 10 seconds).

Run this story up the chain of command and what comes down from management may
very well be "lock the bootloader so we don't end up like Sony", even though
that may not be the root cause.

Still, I'd thought better of ASUS.

------
peterfschaadt
Looks like they caved and will release a tool soon to unlock the bootloader.
It will void the warranty and disable Google Market video rentals.

[http://www.bgr.com/2012/01/03/asus-confirms-intent-to-
releas...](http://www.bgr.com/2012/01/03/asus-confirms-intent-to-release-
transformer-prime-bootloader-unlocking-tool/)

------
alexchamberlain
I _was_ going to buy one of these...

Could it not be argued this is anti-competitive?

~~~
marshray
I was about to order one too.

Instead I went out last night and bought a Samsung Galaxy Tab 10.1.
<https://twitter.com/#!/marshray/status/154039917322838017>

The bootloader isn't locked, but the 'Heimdall' flash backup/restore tool
doesn't work with it. (yet :-)

~~~
cdh
It's great that you got one that isn't locked, but worth mentioning for others
thats Samsung is indeed locking the bootloader on some (many?) of the wifi-
only 10.1 devices.

(As far as I know, all of the Galaxy Tab 8.9 and Galaxy Tab 7 Plus devices are
sold unlocked, for now.)

~~~
marshray
Well, heck, maybe I'm wrong. :-) I haven't actually done it yet, but I can
pull up a "Warning: Installing a different OS can void your warranty, are you
sure?" message.

Do you have any specific links?

~~~
cdh
I suggest starting here: <http://forum.xda-
developers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=1050>

I don't have a 10.1, but I did spend a few hours reading through many of those
threads last week before I decided against purchasing one for my wife. (We
ended up going with the 7+ model instead.)

For what it's worth, my understanding is that there are workarounds to flash
an unsigned kernel, it's just a real pain. Also, I think you would get the
message you are seeing even if it were unlocked... my Galaxy S2 gives me the
same warning before letting me into download mode.

~~~
marshray
Yes I plan to be a regular on those fora.

 _Also, I think you would get the message you are seeing even if it were
unlocked_

Right. I was thinking that if it were locked it wouldn't have such a
thoughtful warning and the option to proceed. But this reasoning could be
wrong obviously.

------
nodata
Good. Now I have a reason not to buy one.

------
keeperofdakeys
The original Asus Transformer sold with an unlocked boot loader, and many
linux distros can be used on it. The question is, since the first device had
an unlocked bootloader, is it a reasonable assumption that the new model would
too? Since it is not just a new revision, I don't think so.

~~~
RexRollman
I understand what you are saying but it is also reasonable to be pissed when
the follow on model takes away an ability the previous one had.

------
lawnchair_larry
More "RMS was right".

