
Business card-sized Japanese phone bucks the giant-phone trend - extraterra
https://arstechnica.com/?p=1396657
======
x0054
All I want is an iPhone 3G with an all screen front. It would fit 4.2-4.5 inch
screen with ease and it's the size of my wallet. iPhone X specs in the iPhone
3G body. Thicker is fine, just make the battery last a long time. Honestly,
there must be people like me out there. I'll gladly pay $1k for a 4ish inch
version of iPhone X.

Large phones are fine, to each their own. But some of us what small phones.
And I have large hands, but I want to be able to comfortably use a phone with
one hand.

Typed in iPhone SE.

~~~
jen729w
SE owner here. Total tech nerd, but I just want a small phone that fits in my
back pocket when I'm cycling. It makes me very sad that they're all getting
enormous.

When I'm out, I'm just sending messages. Maybe a bit of maps and
_occasionally_ Safari. But all of my proper browsing is done at home, on an
iPad or my Mac. When I'm out, I'm out. The phone is a tool, it's not the thing
I'm doing.

~~~
camillomiller
I understand your point of view, but from a market standpoint you're a niche
of a niche of a niche.

I feel you, because I have the same feeling about many mass produced products.
I find that the real problem with phone and electronics is that their nature
prevents the development of "artisanal" alternatives, which, market-wise, are
the only option that can takle the need of a small pool of users like in your
case.

~~~
user812
Iphone SE users aren't a small pool of users.

The decision by Apple is either based solely on making more money short-
term/mid-term while ignoring a part of their customer base, or waiting for the
right entry point with introduing a new bigger full screen but overall smaller
model.

Many things Apple did in the early days weren't making sense from a market
standpoint, like giving away software for free. At least that's what MS would
have told you at that time.

That's why it's hard even for Apple to really price in the economic long-term
cost of not supporting high-income and higly influental niche groups - there
isn't only monocausality to consider when calculating ROI.

~~~
graeme
A lot of iphone SE users just bought it because it was cheap though. That's
the "niche of a niche" comment above.

I like smaller phones, so we'll see how much people care about them now that
the iphone 8 is the smallest good phone apple sells. Am hoping they do make a
smaller iphone X style phone, but....we'll see.

Btw, for anyone reading this, popsockets go a long way to making larger phones
more comfortable.

~~~
blattimwind
> A lot of iphone SE users just bought it because it was cheap though. That's
> the "niche of a niche" comment above.

The SE was not a cheap phone. It might be considered so in some high-income
bubbles, but for most people it isn't/wasn't.

~~~
wilsonnb3
The SE was a cheap phone. $399 or ~$16 a month.

In the US, that’s a cheap phone.

~~~
mgkimsal
It started at $499, IIRC, then was downpriced in its second incarnation(?)

There was a period where storage was doubled, but IIRC it seemed that options
went down again in the SE (maybe when the price dropped)?

~~~
mgkimsal
Can't edit - but I was thinking of the larger size(s) - the original base
price was $399...

------
walterbell
It is hard to believe that Apple, of all companies, does not understand how
customers build their "device portfolios":

• one device = biggest phone

• two devices = 13/12 laptop or iPad Pro 12 + medium phone

• three devices = 13/12 laptop, iPad 10.5 + smallest phone

• four devices = three devices + watch / AR glasses

It does not take a genius to see that the iPhone SE form factor is the logical
choice for Apple customers with three or four devices. These are the customers
spending the most money in Apple's ecosystem.

In the absence of a product visionary at the helm, large companies may want to
ask why US/EU customers purchased a product developed for the Indian market.
Abandoning emerging markets' low-cost phones does not require abandoning the
global market of customers buying a coordinated portfolio of fit-for-purpose
devices.

On a secondary footnote, the creation of "Screen Time" is likely a pre-emptive
defense against future lawsuits for smartphone health consequences, ranging
from eye health to psychological effects on developing brains.

What reduces screen time? A small phone like the iPhone SE that can still be
used with headphones for audio. So there is a legal argument to be made for
small phones: the presence in a corporate product line allows liability to be
shifted to customers — if you suffer negative consequences from screen time,
you should have bought the small phone to discourage screen use.

On the other hand, if companies only offer large phones, and we find out years
later that they knew the health risks of excess screen time were increased by
large phones, they would have contributed to the problem instead of possible
solutions (like the iPhone SE).

~~~
bflesch
I think screen time is a very clever play by apple against
Facebook/Instragram, who are known as having time used per day as their core
metric. With screen time, users see that they again spent several hours on
those useless apps and start thinking about how they spend their time.

Overall a win/win for people who get pulled too much into social media.

~~~
johnvaluk
Or maybe it's just Apple's way of pointing out that battery life correlates to
the amount of time the screen is on.

------
userbinator
_It also has no camera. It has built-in apps, though, including a Web browser,
a calculator, and a calendar—so sure, it 's technically a smartphone_

The established term for a phone with that functionality is "feature phone".
In fact, it's even in the URL:

[https://www.nttdocomo.co.jp/product/feature_phone/ky01l/](https://www.nttdocomo.co.jp/product/feature_phone/ky01l/)

~~~
fma
I don't think I can survive without a camera. I would take a feature phone
with a high quality camera. Sacradkce everything else (except battery) and
I'll buy it.

------
trynewideas
What actually happened to the market for 4" phones? I came across my old Droid
Incredible II the other day and it felt so much better in my hand than any
other smartphone I've held in the last 3 years. I could comfortably type on it
with one hand, something I couldn't dream of doing well on a 5" or larger
phone.

~~~
NeedMoreTea
I honestly believe the market is still there, as is so often the case the lack
of choice is nothing to do with market or sales.

The SE was far from a failure.

So I can only conclude that the makers would prefer everyone on larger phones
for some reason.

~~~
camillomiller
How do you honestly believe that? Market is not a feel. Companies with multi-
billion dollar revenues invest gazillions into researching the market. They
can't afford to come up with a product based on "honestly believing". Then
they apply resources to tackle a potential need. As much as I would like that
my feelings could overlap with the markets, I'm aware that I'm a niche, and I
don't think that judging market choices through the lens of what I'd like can
lead to anything but a skewed personal view of a market problem.

The SE was far from a failure not because of the size, but because for the
first time it let people into the iPhone realm at a much lower price (without
being just an old phone with a lower price). It had the "new" tag on it,
although it was basically a product that Apple could generate by mixing up a
couple of production lines with much lower assembly costs. By any measurement,
the iPhone SE is an old and technically lacking phone with a superior and
hyper-sticky software ecosystem. It was also the workhorse of carriers who
could sell expensive plans with a lower device subsidization fee.

Apple's marketing is best in class when it comes to framing the complexity of
market tactics and vendor-carrier relationships within a simple and clear
narrative. The underlying mechanism are still as intricated as they can be.

~~~
NeedMoreTea
Yet companies do precisely that all the time, in many markets and niches. They
lead rather than respond to the market. Such is the nature of companies that
get large enough to be multinationals. Customers count for not that much, so
take it or leave it.

Almost no one wanted headphone sockets actually removed because anyone who
actually wanted bluetooth already had the capability, and countless surveys
reveal a wish to keep them. Most recently Oneplus finding 80%+ of their
customers wanted to keep it, so their next phone removed it. Almost every
company has now followed suit, so it's damn clear they are not researching the
market, unless it's to ascertain the extent of what they can get away with.

Same with Google+, almost no one wanted it, yet for several years there was
insistence one would have it.

So I maintain the presence or absence of a product or service is often little
or nothing to do with market sales. Or one can believe in perfect markets and
perfect filling of opportunities.

~~~
ghaff
Of course sales matter. What doesn't matter is people pissing and moaning
(e.g. over headphone jack) if they end up buying your product anyway. Apple
has always been in the forefront of removing legacy features before the market
was really ready for them to be removed.

------
kazinator
Twenty-somethings today don't remember a time before the smartphone era when
there was a race for phones to be smaller.

Cell phones were initially huge. Actually, first they existed as "car phones".
They were heavy boxes the size of a big bottle of laundry detergent, bearing a
handset with a number pad. They operated on AMPS (analog mobile phone
service). After that cell phones then became smaller and more portable, but
still huge, resembling household cordless phones. There was a race in the
1990's and early 2000's for smaller and smaller phones. Having a smaller phone
than the next person was a status symbol.

Smartphones have disrupted that trend, because small touch screens suck. The
trend has not entirely been disrupted: smartphones cannot be _too_ large. Then
they turn into tablets. And, _thin_ matters, still.

~~~
another-cuppa
Phones started to get too small in the 2000s. I can't remember which phones in
particular but some definitely had buttons too small for most people's hands.

~~~
asknthrow
My old Nokia (don't remember the model) had buttons so small I had to use my
nails instead of my fingertips!

~~~
TomMarius
I had a phone that had almost no buttons. At least there were gaps.

[https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/0S0AAOSwaB5Xp-
lT/s-l300.jpg](https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/0S0AAOSwaB5Xp-lT/s-l300.jpg)

------
hn_throwaway_99
This looks somewhat similar in purpose to the light phone 2:
[https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/light-
phone-2#/](https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/light-phone-2#/) .

I've been looking forward to that phone because their ethos seems to be in
line with what I want: all the "directed" tools you want (phone, text,
contacts, alarm, maps, Uber/Lyft, etc) but nothing that lets you get into
"mindless scroll" mode like social network apps or a browser.

~~~
fyfy18
The Nokia Classic phones are probably the closest released phone that fits
this criteria so far.

I recently got a Nokia 105 (2017) for my parents as the bespoke charger on
their old phone broke, and it was cheaper to get a new phone. I played with it
a bit, and as far as a phone goes it's top notch for making calls, but the
lack of even basic apps like maps or messaging (other than SMS) make it pretty
limited.

The phone has a grand total of 4MB of RAM in contrast with the latest smart
phones which have up to 6GB. Android is too bloated as an OS for feature
phones, but I'd love to see a new platform come out designed for limited RAM
(maybe a few hundred megabytes) which it's easy to develop apps for, yet still
produces devices that last for a week or two on a single charge. In developing
countries these phones are still pretty popular, and from the comments people
are posting here would go down pretty well with the HN croud.

~~~
jaclaz
It is all a matter of what you want a device to do (I know it seems obvious).

I had a couple of what you could call a "smartphone" before "smartphone"
existed (Sony Ericsson P900/P910), which anyway had a battery that normally
lasted a couple days.

I have an (ageing) Samsung Note, but what I now use daily (since a few years)
and carry with me at all times a Nokia 1280:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_1280](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_1280)

I can make and receive calls and SMS', it is tiny and extremely robust, it has
been dropped countless times without any damage (shell and battery just
"explode" and you have to find all the pieces and then reassemble it), battery
lasts days, it simply fills most of my needs, without having to carry with me
at all times a (bulky and fragile) smartphone.

~~~
vageli
> I have an (ageing) Samsung Note, but what I now use daily (since a few
> years) and carry with me at all times a Nokia 1280

Curious to hear what carrier you use it on. 2G options in the US at least are
severely limited.

~~~
jaclaz
In EU 2G is just fine (yet?), Italy here, but never had problems in EU and
near countries.

------
wtmt
Wish these were not as expensive as they are. This, the new Palm phone and
similar devices could potentially start a minimalist (and "cute"?) revolution
where devices focus on some core aspects with battery life closer to that of
feature phones.

~~~
ip26
That new Palm phone sounds like exactly what I've been looking for for two
years, except for the carrier exclusive and the part where it only goes with
another phone, not on its own-which might not be so bad, except for the extra
$20/mo.

------
cjblomqvist
I'm surprised at all the disappointment about no small smartphones existing.
I'm typing this on a Sony Xperia Compact (XZ1) I just bought. It's cheap,
battery lasts two full days after 1-2 years of usage (I lost my last one,
that's why I bought a new one). It works great and have a pretty clean version
of Android.

Instead of complaining, why not just go buy a small phone? I thought people in
here knew better than to complain without doing any research.

~~~
wlesieutre
Does unlocking the bootloader still erase the DRM keys for the camera’s image
processing and turn it into a piece of garbage? That’s how it worked on my
Z3C. Other than that, decent phone if not a biiit too big still.

[https://www.androidpolice.com/2014/10/02/unlocking-the-
bootl...](https://www.androidpolice.com/2014/10/02/unlocking-the-bootloader-
on-sonys-xperia-z3-and-z3-compact-causes-poor-low-light-camera-performance-
thanks-to-drm/)

------
issa
I thought the iPhone 5 was the last decently sized phone made. I recently held
an older iPhone model and it was actually smaller and even better. I
understand that most people, like my wife, use their phone for everything and
a bigger screen makes sense. But I spend my day in front of a computer and my
phone is for calls, texting, and photos. Throw in directions/maps, and I would
gladly live without almost everything else.

------
ayushgp
Now that all the phones coming out have a bezelless display, why aren't
manufacturers reducing the whole phone's size instead of extending the screen
to the top and bottom. Take OnePlus 5 and OnePlus 6 for example. The OnePlus 6
could've easily been equal to only the screen size of OnePlus 5 but they chose
to extend the screen to top and bottom instead.

~~~
mrweasel
I don't understand the quest for bezel-less designs. It makes all phones look
the same. It has meant that all but one manufacturer have moved the
fingerprint reader to the back, or removed it. For someone like me who often
use my phone while it's laying flat on the table, it means that I can't easily
unlock it. Even FaceID wouldn't help, because it can't see my face in that
angle.

Then there's the notch. Come on, that just stupid, just add the 4 or 5mm of
bezel a the top, it's fine. Why would I need the extra two top corners of
screen, the screen is big enough.

------
jnaina
Not sure why this is news. There are a whole host of credit Card size phones
available in China and you easily buy them on Aliexpress/Taobao at around <
USD$30. Here's one example: [https://www.aliexpress.com/item/ultrathin-mini-
metal-credit-...](https://www.aliexpress.com/item/ultrathin-mini-metal-credit-
card-phone-3-5mm-jack-remote-camera-MP3-3-0-bluetooth-
BT/32841185000.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.225.6cd539ebduxE6P&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_4_10065_10068_318_319_317_10696_450_10084_10083_10618_452_535_534_533_10307_532_5023915_204_10059_10884_323_10887_100031_320_321_322_5727615_10103_448_449,searchweb201603_45,ppcSwitch_0&algo_expid=66247b9f-a1b8-4f5d-a523-bdd3e1f72f24-32&algo_pvid=66247b9f-a1b8-4f5d-a523-bdd3e1f72f24)

~~~
userbinator
Those don't have an eink display (yet), so battery life and sunlight
readability won't be as good.

(Battery life might not be all that much better since the display of a feature
phone is going to be used far less than a smartphone, but the readability
certainly can be.)

------
kevin_thibedeau
I just wish you could find pocketable 4.7" phones in the US. They exist but
are either not imported or don't support domestic LTE bands and not worth it.
Older flagships are guaranteed to be Chinese knockoffs and not worth the
bother. We don't all want a phablet.

~~~
baddox
The iPhone SE was a dream come true, though even smaller than 4.7” and
obviously an iPhone which could be a dealbreaker for some. Funny enough, I
feel like basically any smartphone with current flagship internals in any 2-3
year old flagship form factor would be ideal for me.

------
forinti
I really like the idea of an e-ink display so that the battery will last
longer, but they are also not so strong and I'm afraid it won't last long if
you treat this phone like other phones (toss into your backpack or put it in
your back pocket).

------
rb808
To help break my addiction I'm looking for a phone with good camera, basic
apps like uber and email, but small enough that surfing the net isn't great
and clash of clans is unusable. :) Any small phone recommendations?

~~~
whitepoplar
I think the best phone you can get today, regardless of price, is the iPhone
SE, even though it's not being sold by Apple anymore.

~~~
andrepd
Sadly iphones aren't an option. It disrespects my freedoms in pretty glaring
ways.

~~~
sagichmal
Ironically, the Apple phone ecosystem is the only viable option, if you care
about data privacy.

~~~
endemic
I would argue that an Android phone without Google apps (e.g. LineageOS) is
just as good; perhaps even superior, as you don't have to rely on an arbitrary
gatekeeper in order to install software.

------
fenwick67
Might consider it if it wasn't so expensive. In a world where feature phones
that are marginally larger cost under twenty dollars it's hard to justify.

------
joewee
Would love to switch to a phone like this, only problem I have is text
messages are inherently insecure and I would have to create a convoluted setup
of texting from a devices with apps like signal and forwarding calls to this
dumb device...wish there was a simple phone with a restricted build that only
included signal and WhatsApp or something similar, in addition to the basic
phone features.

~~~
brownbat
If only you could hack signal on to whispernet...

------
andrepd
Oh god yes. I have a 5 inch phone going on 2 years now and it's about as big
as I can tolerate. I dread the day it dies and I have to get another, because
I literally don't see (mid to high end) phones below this size anymore
(gsmarena shows... 6 fitting this bill released in the past year).

------
submeta
For me the larger screen has much more value than the ability to have a small
phone with me. For typing reasons and for doing research on a larger screen or
reading news or ebooks.

Also, I use my iPhone more like a PDA, the telephone feature is used lesser
and lesser. And if I do use it to do phone calls I do it in combination with
my AirPods while my iPhone is in my pocket. And in that case perceptionally my
AirPods + Siri ("Hey Siri, call my wife") are my telephone.

The way I see it a small(er) phone or even a small dumbphone makes sense for
people who use their devices mainly for doing phonecalls.

Having said that I must add that going for a run with my iPhone 7 Plus is
cumbersome because it's too bulky. I need it to listen to music while running.
Cant't load music on my running watch from Garmin (Fenix 5)

------
npapag7
The market wants mobiles phones and PDAs to be the same device. That is what
phones with large screens are.

------
gumby
Reminds me of the Franklin REX (which I had in my wallet for a while --
eventually donated them to the CHM)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REX_5000](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REX_5000)

~~~
brlewis
That's good. I can't think of anything but the SNL skit - last minute of this
video: [https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/jeffreys-
with-...](https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/jeffreys-with-sean-
hayes/3505971)

------
Animats
What's needed is a carrier offering which allows you to have a small phone on
an account in addition to a big one, at no extra charge. Both ring on the same
number, and you can't have independent calls on both at the same time, and
there's some limitation to prevent using both for major data at the same time.

Then you should be able to get a $49 feature phone as a spare, or for when you
don't need a big phone.

(Yes, you can kludge this up using Google Voice, or Twilio, or running
Asterisk on your home Linux server, but it needs to be easier than that.)

~~~
vageli
> What's needed is a carrier offering which allows you to have a small phone
> on an account in addition to a big one, at no extra charge. Both ring on the
> same number, and you can't have independent calls on both at the same time,
> and there's some limitation to prevent using both for major data at the same
> time.

Why would a carrier offer for free something they can easily monetize? A proxy
for this would be how Verizon charges customers a monthly fee for the "soft"
sim present in Apple watches.

------
upofadown
>It has a 380mAh battery, which sounds abysmal, but the ePaper display should
not use very much power, so we wouldn't be surprised if its battery life is
just fine regardless.

It has a LTE radio in it. Battery life is not going to be fine. The 80g phones
of the '00s era with 2 week battery life are just a fond memory. The
technology is degrading over time.

------
rwmj
I'd like to see a flip phone again. Large screen, small size (and would
actually justify the modern trend to make everything incredibly thin).

Having said that I'd like to know if this small phone is a success or not. If
no one buys it then maybe everyone is happy with phablets.

~~~
mrweasel
Flip phones was never really my thing, I like the old school Nokia designs
better.

I have some really weird wishes for a new phone. Something like the Nokia 104,
but with 4G and wifi for tethering support. Oh, and a Google Authenticator
app, for work.

If possible I would also like the option of having an Linux or Mac OS app for
writing SMS messages on my laptop, so I can have a real keyboard.

~~~
rwmj
Flip phones were huge in Japan from about 2000 up to the iPhone. Nokia-style
chocolate bars were never really popular there. I think a new flip phone which
folded out into a large flat screen (rather than having a physical keyboard)
might be an interesting proposition.

For what you describe in your message above, have you thought about buying a
laptop with built in SIM card support or alternately USB 4G SIM card modem?

~~~
mrweasel
I have, I’ve also considered a authenticator application on my laptop to solve
that issue. Now I just need to convince my employeer to save $500 - 1000 by
not buying me a new smart phone.

------
themensch
Impeccable timing as I witness my iPhone 6 crash opening the phone app. You
had one job, iPhone.....

------
TheSpiceIsLife
No discussion of tiny phones is complete without reference to John’s Phones:

[https://www.johnsphones.com/store/johns-phone-
bar/item46](https://www.johnsphones.com/store/johns-phone-bar/item46)

~~~
fusiongyro
Site appears to be pretty broken.

~~~
seabrookmx
Yeah I got a file download prompt clicking on that link. Kinda sketch.

------
user5994461
>>> It has a 380mAh battery, which sounds abysmal

It is truly abysmal. Can it even last a full day being idle?

Contrary to what people may think, it's not the screen that consumes the most
battery (unless actively used) but the radio.

------
hliyan
I predict that within the next five years, the dominant form factor will move
away from large, thin, shiny devices toward smaller, rounder, thicker (but
less dense) devices that fit more comfortably into a human palm.

------
jstewartmobile
Keeping a cell around at all times is about as good for your sanity as smoking
is for your lungs.

They could reduce it all the way down to a "Jitterbug", and the problem would
still be there.

------
pmlnr
The best sizes and felt phone I ever owned was the HTC Desire. I'd love a
teeny bit larger successor to thatvwith the same build quality and better
battery life.

------
browsercoin
as a galaxy user I wondered why they dont make smaller phone that i can
control with one hand without fear of dropping it?

im okay with a smaller reddit is fun app.

------
gwbas1c
Nice idea if you have to carry a second phone. Especially nice if the phone is
passed amoung different people, like for pager duty.

------
gymshoes
I love this design. All I want is a 4 inch e-Paper display with a browser that
can open epub files.

------
Const-me
Awesome idea, but $350?

I’ve recently bought another Lumia 930, brand new, for $100…

------
xaduha
I'd rather buy some old Nokia.

