

Ask HN: Are there any other reasons to accept a PhD offer? - ToPhDorNotToPhd

Out of a passion for both brain research and computation, I've been working towards getting into a PhD program in computational/cognitive neuroscience (my work would focus on applying machine learning techniques to fMRI data).     I've done this at a later stage than most people, having left a career in data analytics (I'm currently 31).<p>When I started out, I really thought that I'd pursue a career as a scientist/academic, but I've since read plenty of articles (one example among many: http://www.economist.com/node/17723223) about how abysmal the academic market is.  I'm also aware that in cogNuro and neuroscience, even the best people (with very few exceptions) post-doc for 4-5 years.<p>So, I'm at a strange stage.  
1) I've been accepted to a top 10 program (private midwestern university) where I'd be working with a well established and very active advisor.  
2) Yet, I'm fairly certain that I no longer want to be an academic.  Not only do I think my chances are slim of landing a decent job, even attempting to go the academic route would put me at 40ish before my first job.<p>My questions: 
-Is there any other reason for me to accept?  
-Would the PhD have any value outside of being intellectually very rewarding (as one professor friend of mine said "a 6 year adventure")?
-Are there any applied routes that I could go?  I do know that there are applications of this technology as "lie detection" and helping people with locked in syndrome, but it seems that these aren't nearly mature enough to produce jobs for PhDs.  Of course, doing machine learning would probably be applicable in the data analytics world, but if I'm just going to go back to my old industry, I wonder if I'd be better off doing a masters in stats, cs, etc.<p>I ask these because I'm really trying to find out if there's anything that I'm missing.  I just want to know if anyone is aware of some route that I don't see that would make this valuable.<p>If not, I may have to make the sad decision to turn down an offer to do some really cutting-edge research.
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freshbag
It seems like you're definitely going to get a good experience if you go with
this lab. I'm currently enrolled in a grad program myself - this may bias my
perspective.

The great part about where you're coming from is that you might already have a
great sense about how the 'real world' works. I'm sure you've done some form
of research before - however, the process of getting through a PhD program
makes you work harder to understand what you think you know - and hones your
ability to create new academic value.

Although a Master's in stats does prove useful, you're generally rehashing the
same old techniques. You seem like you wanted more creativity in your job. I
feel like value begets value - the academic value you create because you're
curious can, if leveraged properly, become a company for you.

I'm sure you already knew all this - but regardless if you're thinking of
doing a program, why not consider doing the PhD program? Just make sure to get
the Master's on the way, and you haven't lost any time - you were going to do
the Master's, anyways. In that time, you'll get a lot of research done and
find more opportunities. Furthermore, you'll probably find it easier to be
paid - most schools are better funded for PhD candidates than Master's
candidates. Why not take a 'free' degree, then, if you're going to put in the
time?

Quite honestly - the stuff you're doing is specialized, to some extent, but
you can also link it to other imaging modalities. I presume you're correlating
'what am I thinking' to 'what do we see on fMRI?' - it's a classic
multidimensional problem with a ton of potential solutions and a crazy number
of permutations to handle. That's already some pretty useful stuff - you can
take it, rinse, and reuse in another format - say, EEG, or applying new
diagnostic fusion modalities to diagnosing various diseases automagically.
Things appear different every time in different people - essentially a similar
problem.

In addition, you've got a huge area for HCI (human computer interaction). Jobs
already has a ton of people contemplating moving to the tablet for everyday
usage. What if we end up going a step further to wearable computing - how will
we have interfaces? Turn your stuff slick and sexy, and you've got a huge
potential market.

You're landing a great research job in a great university. You're on Hacker
News - wouldn't you consider starting your own company with all the crazy
stuff you've discovered?

~~~
ToPhDorNotToPhd
I have considered just going and seeing how it turns out (some people have
given me the advice to go .... no better way to find out if I'll like it than
to try).

I think you're right about the stuff coming up on the horizon. From what I
know, some of the HCI stuff is problematic (I just talked to an EEG guy that
was lamenting how problematic his machine learning/EEG research has been,
given the noisiness of the data), but people are really starting to think
about this stuff. There are also individuals using fMRI as a neurofeedback
device (Chris DeCharms of Omneuron has started down that path:
[http://www.ted.com/talks/christopher_decharms_scans_the_brai...](http://www.ted.com/talks/christopher_decharms_scans_the_brain_in_real_time.html)).
Relatedly, some researchers have started to throw in classifiers such that one
can focus on distributed brain states, as opposed to specific regions (which
is what DeCharms does).

I read about this stuff and I'm fairly convinced that eventually the HCI,
neurotraining, neurotech industries will take off, but for me it's a question
of when. Will the growth of those industries happen in 5 years or 25 years? If
it happens in 5 or 6 years, I'd be golden. If 25, then I'd be looking for a
job when I come out.

As for the startup idea, I really have thought about that. The issue would be
age again .... I'd be 37 with limited funds trying to crawl through the
startup "Valley of Death." It wouldn't totally be off the table, but a lot
would depend on the state of the industry.

So, all in all, I look at this PhD opportunity and think that there's
definitely exciting work to be done, and the potential for really interesting
jobs in the future. But it seems very high risk considering that I'd need to
get the timing just right.

------
gorrepati
Are you married? If yes, DONT. If no, read on

Do you have lots of money stashed somewhere? If no, DONT. If yes, read on..

Are you fuckin' smart? Like 1 in 100 smart? If no, DONT. If yes, read on..

Do you have high levels of motivation. If no, DONT. If yes, read on..

Obviously this shit is easy to figure out when you are at 21; you have
sometime to "throw away". Not at 31, AFAIK.

There must be companies out there who are doing the things you are interested
in. Find em. If you are smart, you will figure out atleast 70% of what you
would as PhD student; with the added bonus that you have a job.

You might want to read this too:
[http://www.bostonphoenix.com/alt1/archive/styles/97/03/06/de...](http://www.bostonphoenix.com/alt1/archive/styles/97/03/06/degrees.html)

~~~
ToPhDorNotToPhd
Answers:

Married: No

Cash: Not a ton (maybe a years worth)

Smarts: Maybe (on my best days)

Motivation: Yes (over the last 2 years at least....though over the last two
years I had a clear goal: academia. Without that, I'm not certain that my
doubts won't get in the way).

And agreed. If I were 21, this would probably be an easy decision. I'd just
go, push through and see where it took me. At 31 though, I have other goals
that I'm not sure if I'll be able to meet if I do the PhD. I'd probably have
to put off getting married, having kids, etc. Not to mention, putting away
cash will be almost impossible.

So, this seems risky. I could end up in my late 30s with some really
interesting publications, but limited funds and no idea where I'd be finding a
job.

------
diwup
As a PhD dropout from an east coast Ivy League school who just turned 24 this
year, I would say a PhD isn't worth it if you've already decided not to follow
the academia path for the rest of your life.

Besides, PhD programs in the states has been filled with Chinese and Indian
smart kids these days. While you may be looking for your unique contribution
to the frontier of the fearless intellectual exploration in Mother Nature from
those programs, those smart Asian kids are just looking for a ticket into the
states and they probably would sacrifice as much as it takes to outperform
you.

So take a pause and pay attention to the facts. I know your advisor may be
extremely warm and friendly and his recent publications may be extremely
exciting. But the facts are that they expect you to follow the academia path
while you don't want to, and that your grad school classmates are competing
for an immigration stamp which you don't care.

~~~
dagw
_PhD isn't worth it if you've already decided not to follow the academia path_

I know a least a dozen people with PhD's in science, medicine or engineering
and only one of them is following the academic path, and he gets regular
offers of big bags of money to work for various commercial companies. The only
PhD's I know who are 'stuck' in academia are people with PhD's in 'softer'
subjects like architecture or social anthropology.

 _the facts are that they expect you to follow the academia path_

Again this varies a lot from advisor to advisor. I know at least one guy (and
know of several more) working at a company started by him, a classmate and
their advisor during his PhD program. I also know other people who's advisor
happily used their contacts in industry to place their students in great jobs.

~~~
ToPhDorNotToPhd
These are the opportunities that I'm still trying to explore.

Even though my PhD would be in basic science, there are lots of potential
applications. In fact, the program I'd be at has very, very strong links with
the medical school. I'd probably be able to use some of these techniques on
clinical populations and doing some translational research (i.e., stuff that
has direct applications). For example, using machine learning with fMRI has
some potential in mental health diagnostics.

The big question for me is if these things will take off in the next few
years. Currently, I haven't seen any companies really growing in these sorts
of areas (though I look at it and think the potential is immense).

 _the facts are that they expect you to follow the academia path_

The bad news here is that while my potential advisor is really great (and
probably okay with people not becoming professors) the people that haven't
jumped into the post-doc route haven't had any of these sorts of outcomes. The
few that haven't gone the academic route have become staff scientists or gone
into government (though, those individuals graduated 5+ years ago, and my work
would possibly be more technical since the lab has gone down the machine
learning path).

------
bdev
In my opinion getting a PhD is a lifestyle choice.

Take a sheet of paper and write the three most important things you want to
do. If a PhD won't help you achieve one of them, perhaps it is not the right
route. If you are unsure find people doing what you want to do and just ask
them if a PhD was valuable.

In the meantime, keep your options open until the last responsible moment.
Remember there is no wrong answer.

