
Could Atlanta Buy A Silicon Valley? - ivey
http://blog.weatherby.net/2009/02/could-atlanta-buy-a-silicon-valley-the-answers.html
======
sanjayparekh
I probably shouldn't chime in but since my name was brought up a couple of
times I feel compelled.

Yeah, I'm Indian. Yeah I'm American too (born and raised in Kentucky).

Is there prejudice in the world? Yeah, sure.

Have I experienced prejudice/racism? Of course - and not just in Georgia or
Kentucky but all over the world.

Does it matter one bit (at least to me)? Nope.

Anyone that shows prejudice (based on race or otherwise) is someone I don't
need to be friends with, do business with, or interact with. I've never felt
like a customer wouldn't buy because of some racial prejudice or an investor
wouldn't invest because of the same. If they did, would I even want to do
business with someone so small minded? No, I wouldn't.

Starting a company is hard. It doesn't matter if you don't have one hurdle or
another - there are a lot of obstacles to a successful liquidity event.
Entrepreneurship isn't a path where success is guaranteed. If it were,
everyone would do it.

So my point is this - sure, prejudice may exist and you may think it will
hinder you from succeeding. So what? No one said this was going to be easy. On
the contrary, the large potential rewards upon success all but determine that
it will be very, very difficult to achieve (go read an economics book if you
don't get the reasoning as to why).

So just get to work, start your company, and be successful. This stuff is all
noise and if it derails you - you need to become a better entrepreneur/leader
rather than complain that someone kept you from succeeding.

~~~
brianculler
What I find the most ridiculous about the comments in this thread about the
"prejudice" people have experienced in Atlanta is that the prejudice cited was
coming from places like... people on marta trains.

Really? What people on a subway say to you has a bearing on a startup?

If we're going to have a discussion about having a startup in Atlanta, we
should be evaluating the racism and prejudice that exists within the community
that a startup would actually deal with on a day to day basis. The people that
actually matter, the people that would have an effect on your startup. The
business people, the technical talent, the fellow entrepreneurs. Not people on
marta trains.

So yeah, to back up your final point: what racist bigots on subway trains say
to you should be thrown into the "noise" bucket, no matter where you are or
what you're doing.

------
decius
I've lived in both cities. A few points:

1\. Quality of life in Atlanta is good enough that smart people could be
convinced to move here. Its warm, there are good restaurants, there is good
shopping, there are funky neighborhoods and bars, its a short drive down to
nice beaches where the water is actually warm enough to swim in. Hell, I've
been snowboarding 4 weekends so far this season within a few hours of town. It
does not have a national reputation for being ultra-hip, but as I said in the
other thread, I don't think that matters. In fact, around the turn of the
century (am I allowed to say that yet) neighborhoods in SF that were hip and
trendy and neighborhoods in SF that were dripping in startup money were
mutually exclusive, and being anyway associated with the tech industry was
just about the most uncool thing you could possible be there even though
everybody was.

2\. There are some people who wouldn't move to Atlanta, for reasons that are
both reasonable and unreasonable. However, the same thing can be said about
San Francisco. Some people will not move there because they don't like the
culture or they are worried that they are going to die in an Earthquake.
Atlanta does have an undercurrent of racism and that does bare repeating. But
its not a death knell for the city as a center for innovation. We have a very
diverse community here who can work together and produce great companies.

3\. Atlanta has a vibrant, multifaceted nerd scene with various strong
universities, technical user groups, cons, parties, mailing lists, web sites,
facebook groups, etc. In fact I find it far easier to get networked in with
other nerds here than in San Francisco, where scenes tend to be a bit more
snobbish, exclusive, and corrupted by the presence of wealth. There are some
things I wish were going on here that aren't, such as a genuine hacker space,
but in general the "scene" here is strong and growing stronger at a regular
pace.

4\. In addition to the aforementioned nerd scene, I think the things that
matter are the right legal framework for innovation (which I explained in the
other thread, and I do not agree that the differences are trivial particularly
with regard to intellectual property laws), and a supportive environment of
investors and incubators. The later seems to be improving, but unfortunately
the stock market crash has made everything more difficult.

5\. I strongly agree with jhaynie that Atlanta has got to look at its
individual technical strengths. There are certain technical communities that
are particularly strong here. Innovation is not about copying San Francisco -
its about leading, on the world stage, in terms of the direction we need to
take technology. For example, this is a time when every business in world is
asking itself how it can reduce its costs. Our concentration of industrial
engineers may have new answers to that question that you aren't going to get
out of Palo Alto.

~~~
martianpenguin
FYI: A hackerspace in Atlanta is currently in active development.

------
jhaynie
I probably shouldn't even delve into commenting on a stream that has turned a
positive blog article into "atlanta is racist". strange.

I grew up in Atlanta but have lived in Chicago, Washington state, Florida and
Tokyo, Japan. I now live in Mountain View, California in the heart of the
valley.

Atlanta is a great place to live, raise a family and has its own unique
tech/geek/startup culture. It's hard to compare the valley to Atlanta - but
that's true with any other location on the planet. Silicon Valley is unique
and difficult to replicate.

These types of "centers" happen because of aggregation of people and
resources. Nashville has an aggregation that supports country music, Atlanta
has hip-hop, LA has Hollywood, D.C. has politics and NYC still is the
financial capital of the world. Silicon Valley is just the technology capital
of the world. With any rule, you have exceptions - plenty of great technology
companies come out of Vancouver, Seattle, Portland and Denver (just to name a
few).

What Atlanta and all other places should focus on isn't how to replicate the
valley - but instead, how to create their own unique place which highlights
and rewards their own achievements and strengths. It will take a lot of
constituents to make that happen - entrepreneurs, investors, law makers and
educators.

One stark contrast that might be worth exploring is the difference between the
Valley and other locations is reinvestment through the social contract. In the
Valley, there is a very strong sense of a social contract from entrepreneurs
to entrepreneurs (and investors to entrepreneurs). I feel a much stronger
sense of success which breeds more success (or help, resources, guidance and
mentorship). In fact, anecdotally, it seems like way more entrepreneurs "who
make it big" in the valley, attempt to repeat - either directly in their own
subsequent startups or minimally through very active advising and investment
in younger upstarts. I would contrast that to Atlanta where I believe that's
more of the exception than the norm. (Plenty of people have such as John
Imlay, Mitch Free, Alan Graber, Tom Noonon, just to name a few). My own
personal assessment is that it might be because there are (a) fewer very large
exits in Atlanta, (b) it's easier to retire with less money in Atlanta and (c)
there's no peer pressure to do it again.

Recently, however, I'm very encouraged by all of the entrepreneurs that have
decided to take things into their own hands. Atlanta knows who they are (Lance
Weatherby, Scott Burkett, Sanjay Parekh and all the guys at Shotput Ventures
like David Cummings and Mitch Free). I've long said it's the entrepreneurs
that will "save Atlanta" -- if there is such as thing that people believe is
necessary.

I'm very much rooting for Atlanta. Not to become yet-another-failed-silicon-
valley replication attempt. Wow, gives a f* about that. I'm rooting for
Atlanta to become it's own identity: something more powerful, more creative,
more sustainable and more unique. Something that people say: "you can only do
that in Atlanta".

------
lanceweatherby
I don't know how in the heck an article answering the questions that PG posed
turned into a string of comments about racism and calling people meatheads.

But since someone opened the door and let the big elephant in the room, I am
going to go ahead and admit that it's standing there. The sub-culture of
technology startups is dominated by white males. Minorities are not
represented at the same proportion of their general population percentages
anywhere in the country. I am not saying its right and we should all work to
correct the issue. But it is. Look at the YC companies. Look at the
TechCunch50. Look at Demo. Saying that it's just Atlanta is unfounded
stereotyping.

It would be much more beneficial to discuss Atlanta and other cities on the
criteria that PG laid out. In my article I pointed out that Atlanta could be
more tolerant. The city is not alone.

~~~
charlesju
I am an Asian American, doing a startup in Silicon Valley, and I have not
experienced discrimination because of the color of my skin. There are plenty
of Asian American CEOs, Angels, and VCs everywhere. Perhaps, if anything, a
little disproportionate to the true percentage of Asian Americans in
California.

~~~
jackowayed
I think Asian is the one main exception to that rule, just as it's the
exception when it comes to minorities in elite colleges.

Asian Americans don't have as much of a history of economic and political
oppression (There was some, obviously, especially during WWII.), and the
culture strongly encourages working hard to excel at school, helping them then
get good educations and break out of the initial poverty cycles that formed
when Asians first came over and were exploited by railroad companies and the
like.

But if you look at startups for other minorities--Hispanics, African Americans
--I think it is pretty true that they are not well-represented.

~~~
nopassrecover
I have no idea about the situation in the US but could this be due to other
factors? For instance, you mention that these minorities are under represented
in certain colleges to begin with - a place where a lot of startups begin.
Perhaps there is less internet exposure too, or at least to the startup
community blogs etc.. And maybe it just comes down to a perpetuating loop
situation. In any case, and I don't really know US attitudes, but I would
doubt in this day and age there is a conscious effort among hackers, who are
generally more liberty and equality focused anyway, to exclude people based on
anything other than merit.

------
quantumhobbit
As long as you can drink Coca-Cola instead of Pepsi while coding Atlanta is a
great place for Silicon Valley 2.

Costs of living are likely far lower than Silicon Valley, so you could become
"ramen profitable" sooner. I'm paying $550 a month in rent for a gated
townhouse with a 2-car garage right outside the perimeter.

You could get plenty of hackers from Georgia Tech who unlike grads from a
private school won't have too much debt in student loans. Go Jackets and
What's the good Word?

Atlanta could certainly improve on its public transportation, but if you live
in Midtown you can walk most places. If you are in Tech Square, you can use
Georgia Tech's trolly and bus system.

Culturally it's hit or miss. At a coffee shop, most of which close too early
for a late night caffeine fix, you are more likely to overhear conversations
about the latest trend in hip-hop or fashion, but I have seen a few Linux
running Eee PCs in the wild.

------
jraines
I heard that Atlantic Station condos are going for bargain basement prices
right now (a friend is _hoping_ to sell for a 60K loss) -- walk to movies,
food, and groceries and bike to Tech Square. It's tempting to think of what
living in Atlanta could be without its defining characteristic (godawful
traffic).

Without going into all the other factors, Atlanta does have the necessary
condition -- a concentration of smart people.

~~~
jackowayed
I think the Bay Area has proven that godawful traffic and being a startup hub
are far from mutually exclusive.

------
etal
Atlanta feels more like Chicago than SF to me -- the sprawl is worse, the
weather is better (but it's certainly not the California coast), and the
meathead culture is substantial although I'm not sure I can compare it to
Chicago's.

The Olympics were a good thing for the downtown area, and there is some
government willpower to make it more appealing to entrpreneurs -- notably in
biotech. With the CDC, Emory, and Georgia Tech, things could certainly be
worse for startups, but I still wouldn't pick Atlanta as a _likely_ new
startup hub. The same government support that keeps the city afloat also feels
a bit stifling. Poverty in the city center and sprawl everywhere else is
depressing. And the general perception of Georgia in the existing startup hubs
is even worse than the area actually is; offering a group of hackers $1
million to move to the deep South sounds like a mind game or a social
experiment, not a serious offer.

Compare: When the last tech bubble burst it seemed like a lot of engineers
left the Bay Area and resettled around San Diego. La Jolla has UCSD, a pool of
biotech serial entrpreneurs and angels, even better weather than Palo Alto,
and decent burritos and pho. Public transportation could be better, and it is
getting better. So, it would take some extreme persuasion to keep me from
heading right back to the west coast when I finish grad school.

~~~
tptacek
Chicago isn't a sprawl city. San Diego and San Jose definitely are. I don't
know what a "meathead culture" is, but your favorite band is more likely to
play here than in Atlanta _or_ San Francisco.

~~~
evgen
Chicago has much more sprawl than San Jose. The latter is confined somewhat by
geography and several open space preserves, while there is apparently nothing
to stop the westward migration of Chicago's suburbs. After spending my
university years in the Chicago area it was very bizarre to visit last week
and realize that you can almost drive from the loop to Rockford without
leaving suburbs/exurbs along I80. It is somewhat similar to how Austin and
Round Rock used to actually be cities separated by open expanses of empty
space and now the trip between the two cities can be navigated just by hopping
from one strip mall parking lot to another...

~~~
tptacek
You had to predict that someone was going to offer up a bespoke definition of
"sprawl" to defend San Jose, and there you go. Thanks!

First, if you want to define "sprawl" geographically, then the Bay Area and
Chicago are almost identical: it's 40.4 miles from the loop to Elgin, and 40.2
miles from the Sunset to Pleasanton. In both cases, that drive is an unbroken
parade of suburbs.

Second, the conventional definition of "sprawl" is by population density.
Chicago's is 12,500/sq mile; 2.8M people live within the borders of the city.
San Francisco is more dense, but has only 800,000 people. No valley city even
comes close.

Finally, your anecdote about the drive to Rockford would apply just as well to
NYC --- drive 50 miles in any direction from NYC waiting for the suburbs to
stop. Apparently NYC is also a sprawl city.

Notice I'm giving you the most favorable possible comparison here, pretending
you compared San Francisco to Chicago and not San Jose. Saying "Chicago has
much more sprawl than San Jose" is like saying "Chicago has much more sprawl
than Oak Brook, IL". San Jose is a suburb with a couple tall buildings,
surrounded on all sides by 10-15 miles of flatter suburbs.

~~~
omnivore
I think public transportation in the NYC area makes the "sprawl" into Jersey,
Connecticut or even parts of PA not so bad. Hailing from that region, but
living now in the western outskirts of Chicagoland, I can attest to the very
strange difference of the sprawl here versus what I'd term as "cohesive"
outgrowth in NYC.

~~~
tptacek
If you're out by Plainfield or (god help you) Dekalb, you're dealing with the
impact of the mortgage bubble over the last 10 years, which has totally over-
developed the former farmland that surrounded Chicago. Much of the Chicago
suburbs have public transportion access that rivals the NYC suburbs.

~~~
omnivore
You nailed it. I'm about 5 miles from Plainfield.

~~~
tptacek
Move to Evanston or Logan Square.

------
pg
Man. I go off and work on something else for a couple hours, and I come back
to find the bicycle shed on fire...

~~~
lanceweatherby
It's not on fire. It has turned into a healthy discussion. What I am hearing
is that lots of hackers have issue with moving to ATL due to perceptions with
tolerance. Fair enough.

Now if we ever started writing $1 million checks it would be interesting to
see how people would vote with their feet. In my day job I get inquires from
all over the world from people that would move to Georgia for a little help.

Thanks for the article that inspired me and the spirited discussion.

------
sachinag
There's a bizarre concentration of supply chain management software companies
in Alpharetta. Those guys could be the angel investor base I harp on.

~~~
martianpenguin
How is it bizarre to have a high concentration of supply chain management
software companies next to the best school in the country for ISYE?

~~~
sachinag
Wait, what's ISYE? There's actually a logical reason? I figured it was just a
happy accident. That's awesome.

~~~
rms
Industrial and Systems Engineering -- Industrial engineering is the degree
program that generally encompasses supply chain management, though it is also
covered by technical MBA programs, particularly those at universities without
degree programs in industrial engineering.

~~~
sanjayparekh
Don't forget that having UPS as an Atlanta based company has helped in
creating logistics oriented companies here. That plus Memphis (home to FedEx)
isn't that far either.

------
chaostheory
Having lived in the ATL for about 8 years and the Bay Area for 5, I'd have to
strongly disagree with one of the article's points:

"1) Do you have good weather?"

Atlanta does not have good weather. It is either really cold or really hot. It
is nothing like the Bay Area's year round temperate weather.

During the fall and winter, Atlanta is typically gloomy and overcast almost
every day. It's cold enough to ice too... I still remember feeling stupid for
not wearing ear muffs or a hood walking across Tech's campus; it felt like my
ears were going to fall off. Gloves are good idea too unless you want your
hands goin dead.

During the spring and summer, it is very sunny but it is also really hot.
Though not as bad as Florida, there are days where you can just walk for a 1/2
hour outside and be drenched in sweat. Air conditioning is a must, and your
electric bill will reflect that.

~~~
rjurney
Its relative. The continental US has huge variance in weather and Atlanta's
weather is comparatively mild to most places. Our winter lows are between
10-20F, and not on very many days. It snows only once every year or two. Few
people wouldn't move to Atlanta because of the weather. Now compare that to...
Montana, or Maine. Or Seattle, for that matter. We have lots of New York
transplants in Atlanta, and they love our weather :)

A bit off topic but... at least in Florida you can beat the heat in the ocean
:)

P.S. It rained a foot, then snowed a foot at my house in Georgia the last 2
days.

------
lacker
One big problem with starting businesses in the South is racism and
intolerance of outsiders. A key part of Silicon Valley is attracting the best
talent from anywhere in the world, and it's going to be hard to do that in
Atlanta.

For example (from Wikipedia), Atlanta is 2% Asian. San Francisco is 33% Asian.
In fact 36% of San Franciscans were born outside the US.

edit: I do not mean to say that southern == racist. Far from it. I don't know
how to measure racism. But for something like attracting immigrants to a city,
perception of racism can be even more important than reality. And I am sure
there is at least a common perception that Georgia is unfriendly to Asian
immigrants.

~~~
patrickg-zill
Are you speaking from experience, or your own prejudice?

How about this - many Asians settle in CA because it means they are only a
plane trip away from relatives in Asia.

As an example: JFK to Manila means a travel time of 24 hours due to 1 or 2
stops; LAX or SFO to Manila if going direct is 12 hours.

Nothing to do whatsoever with "racism and intolerance".

~~~
lacker
I am speaking from the experience of having lived in Ohio, North Carolina, and
San Francisco. The proximity to Asia is definitely another factor, but there
is definitely at least a perception of racism in the South that discourages
Asian and foreigners from moving there.

~~~
rjurney
Even though you are wrong, and speak from inexperience and prejudice, your
opinion does point out something important: people like you have a prejudice
against Atlanta as 'backwards' because it is in a region with different social
problems than you are used to.

~~~
catch23
As an Asian who has lived in Atlanta for 7 years, I can definitely tell you
that it's not friendly to live there as an Asian. Well, it's better than some
places, but it's definitely crappy compared to the Bay Area or Boston.

------
carolscott
..having lived in both SFO for years and Atl for years, my view is that CA is
much more racist if you're not white or Asian and that's just a fact...the
"good ole boys" club is alive and growing in the Atl however...

