
35 Over 35 - danso
https://theamericanscholar.org/35-over-35/
======
tjbiddle
I don't understand: Is 35 normally considered too old to make something of
yourself by society?

I'm turning 28 this month and I feel like I'm quite far ahead compared to my
peers, yet feel like I'm absolutely still fumbling through life. And when
speaking to friends older than me, the majority seem to still be fumbling
through as well.

Every rotation around the sun my opinion is solidified that we're all just
wingin' it, no matter the age and success can happen whenever.

~~~
CalRobert
I don't think it's the age, it's the other life obligations.

In my early 20's I was in college. Graduated in 2008 in to the recession and
was lucky to have _any_ job. Spent all of my nights learning coding.

In my mid-late 20's, starting in 2011, I finally got a crappy job with a pay
cut in tech (sort of) doing ad operations. I worked hard and spent the
evenings getting better at Java so I could use the Dart For Publishers SDK to
automate things I hated doing at work (inadvertently helped the company make
about a million extra bucks that year, I later realized).

In my early 30's, I got married, changed countries, became a Technical Account
Manager, studied Python and German in my free time, and eventually became a
dev for a video game company.

In my (our, now) mid-30's, we had a kid, and now I spend my free time on that
and house repair, etc. I still like coding but after dinner, bath, bedtime
stories, maybe 15 minutes chatting with the spouse, and then other chores, I'm
going to bed (before anyone asks, I watch 0 TV and do very little by way of
social networks).

I have a colleague who's in his late 20's, no kids, and he's on Slack all.
the. time. He talks about stuff he worked on (for work, not for hobbies) over
the weekend. I don't think I produce as much as him, to be honest. Makes me a
bit anxious about where I stand - hard to compare my 40 hours to effectively
his whole life.

I think I need a plan B.

(Related discussion - and the article is 10 years old so the young'uns then
are getting in to their 30's now)
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9361580](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9361580)

~~~
chenning
You may want to consider looking into academia. Everyone knows the pay isn't
as good, but that can be an advantage. Academia loses (or never gets) a lot of
talented engineers due to the pay, lack of fancy perks, etc. There actually
are perks though. Also, for some, the sense of personal fulfillment depending
on the field or project you're working on can be of significant value (just
not monetary). There's also the fear that academic jobs are solely dependent
on grants, which is true in some cases, but there are positions that are
funded by the institution itself. Also, I wonder how much more "job security"
the typical person really does have in industry. Regardless, It's something to
think about.

~~~
_hardwaregeek
What kind of academia? Because the traditional PhD -> post-doc -> prof track
is absolutely not a good place for work/life balance. Or are you talking about
being a programmer for a university?

~~~
azhenley
The job market for professors in CS right now is _great_. No need for a
postdoc and only a few pubs will get you multiple offers from R1 univerisities
in the US.

(I'm a CS prof.)

~~~
_hardwaregeek
Wow, that's incredible. I didn't get that impression from the CS PhD students
I've met, but I'll take your word for it. But you'd still need a PhD, no? And
grad school is definitely not a great place for work/life balance.

~~~
azhenley
Grad school (and tenure-track) isn't considered great for work/life balance,
but it seems mostly self-induced. If I had limited myself to 40 hours a week
in grad school I think I would have been just as successful.

Anyone I know that wanted a tenure-track position did get one (and had
options). I graduated from an unranked department and had a positive
experience on the market.

------
wickerman
I always remind myself that Paul Gauguin started painting for the first time
at 35, and almost at 40 decided to stop being a wealthy stock broker to live
as a painter. Regardless of the ethics of that decision (he did leave everyone
in his family behind, after all) I do think it's pretty impressive that he
picked up a profession like that so late and developed it in such an
impressive way (I love his artwork, I think it's incredibly beautiful).

~~~
chumali
> decided to stop being a wealthy stock broker to live as a painter

He lost everything after the 1882 market crash and eventually moved to Tahiti
to pursue the allure of the 'free-spirited and noble savage'. Whilst there he
took three teenage brides and infected them with syphilis, from which he
himself eventually died.

~~~
wickerman
Yep, fully aware of his pedophilia. But the thread is not about morally
upstanding people, rather of people who chose to start something in their
middle age.

You might also want to point out that by the time he became a full time
painter sale of paintings was also super low so it wasn't that the decision
was purely because stock brokering was a less desirable outcome. He knew he
was choosing a life of poverty.

------
fouc
I was expecting a list of entrepreneurs rather than authors, still a good
list.

Also I didn't realize it was going to be "those that started after 35 & then
achieved success" which is a great idea.

------
acutesoftware
Good article, it is obvious that as we get older we (statistically) have a
lesser chance of success in winning an Olympic medal or out twitching the best
FPS gamers - but for writing and IT work - age doesn't come into it.

What does come into it (and why this bias continues) is that perhaps a highly
percent of older IT workers are behind the times or irrelevant - some people
simply stop wanting to learn and grow.

~~~
jjeaff
I think a bigger part of it is that older IT and developer types are less
likely to live at the workplace and allow themselves to be taken advantage of.

They are more likely to have one of those pesky families that get in the way
of absolute, total devotion to the company.

They might even be so "uncommitted" to the work that they go home by 6pm.

~~~
c0nducktr
Also, when some of the "growth" comes from learning the new, but not actually
better way of doing something, it's understandable that older workers might be
less enthused than people who haven't been around the block a few times
already.

------
r34
Ancient Greeks called the life period when one is about 40 "akme". It is a
period of greatest mental skills (can't find it on English Wiki, but here is
German:
[https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akme](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akme)).

The "I'm 30, so I'm to old" syndrome is a consequence of very natural social
phenomenon - society wants one to be well defined and established, easy to
predict.

~~~
yters
Yes, Plato didn't think anyone should engage in philosophy, considered the
most intellectually demanding pursuit, until at least 40 and having undergone
a long holistic education and serving in the military.

------
hydrox24
What a good list.

Most Australians would tell you if you asked them that you can achieve
something extraordinary, or begin something new after the age of 35. But I
think people are just trying to say the right thing. They know it's true in
their heads, but I am not sure that their hearts know.

I am under the age of 25, so well under 35, and I am hoping to live out this
advice, and spend my early years learning to learn, and constantly try out new
stuff. But there are very few role models that I can look to in my life who
have really kicked off their work at 30 or 35. I suspect this is true for a
lot of people (regardless of age). Grandmothers getting degrees is still a
quaint, publishable news-story.

I would love to hear from any people in the hacker news crowd that have
changed careers 'late,' or intentionally spent their early years taking
career/skill risks.

~~~
josephdviviano
I didn't do any of this intentionally. I studied psychology in undergrad and
graduated the year of the great financial crisis. Also had a bad GPA, 3.0. I
had lots of ideas but there was always a big skills gap between what I wanted
to do and what I knew how to do (and what my degree said I could do). I am
obsessed with fixing problems in medical decision making (back then it was
specific to diagnosis, now I'm more general).

I fumbled for a few years before worming my way into a middle-ranked graduate
department of Neuroscience. Learned how to work an MRI and how to hack scripts
in Matlab. Realized I could think in maths/stats even though none of my
transcripts suggested I could (my only undergrad math course was calculus, I
took it twice, and the second time I got a 67). I went to a conference in 2012
and saw a Harvard Business Review article on big data in the airport on my way
home. I thought to myself "no one is going to care about my MRI research but I
bet I can become a data scientist without a PhD".

So I found a lab-tech job post-MSc for a bit and then I became a "research
methods specialist" and worked in a research hospital for 4 years. I learned a
lot about high-performance computing, the kinds of models used for pre-
clinical trials, and methods development for clinical research. I ended up on
a lot of papers. My CV now rivals many PhD grads I know.

Then through some networking and persistence, I find myself at the tail end of
a professional MSc in computer science at a top-ranked machine learning
institute. I have successfully survived both core CS coursework and graduate
courses in reinforcement learning and deep learning. I'm currently working on
multiple deep learning research projects and getting to know some really
interesting people doing biomedical startups.

10 years ago I was living in my dad's basement, a psych grad who couldn't math
and showed pretty much zero aptitude for these kinds of endeavors. I never
would have believed that I would be in the kind of program I am in now. I'm
only 32, and my story isn't done, but I'm sure if I make it onto any list, it
will be one for people over the age of 35.

~~~
whytaka
Oh god, I was hoping you'd say 42 or something. I'm 32 myself and you gave me
some relief from my sense of urgency until you mentioned your age.

Great to see you being an ace though! I hope you keep moving forward.

~~~
josephdviviano
Thank you! I shouldn't have put a number on it... the real story is that all
that happened over 10 years. I really don't think it has to do anything with
age, just consistent effort over time. I was being constantly told that I
didn't have what it takes to be in __any __technical field when I finished
university.

------
crispyporkbites
It takes about 7 years on average to achieve proficiency in a given domain.
Usually 3-5 years of study and 2-4 years of real world experience. If you
really want to you can have 5 or 6 different careers in life.

Are you 35 and want to become a doctor? An architect? An engineer? An actor?
Go back to school and you’ll get there by 42.

The problem is that most people either have financial commitments or too much
pride to go back to the start again.

------
sharadov
Ok, they wrote their magnum opus or the book that got them famous after 35,
but it says nothing about all the writing they were probably doing before
that. A lot of writers slave away in obscurity while holding down other jobs.
Then they might publish that book which makes them famous.It does not mean
they just woke up one day and wrote that book ( may happen in a few cases..).
You may be writing for unknown journals, or may be writing but never have the
contacts to get it published, or you may be writing, but never think your work
is good enough to be read...

------
VeninVidiaVicii
I'm starting my PhD in genetics later this month, and I'm 34. So, this is good
news!

~~~
codezero
Good on you! I bailed out of. PhD at 32 and found a new career. You can always
have a new start.

------
wenbin
reminds me of this quora question and excellent answers

What do people in Silicon Valley plan to do once they are over 35 since most
will neither make it big nor move up the management chain of command?

[https://www.quora.com/What-do-people-in-Silicon-Valley-
plan-...](https://www.quora.com/What-do-people-in-Silicon-Valley-plan-to-do-
once-they-are-over-35-since-most-will-neither-make-it-big-nor-move-up-the-
management-chain-of-command)

~~~
angarg12
This is something I'm battling with right now. As I get older, it's more
common to see people younger than me being more successful. When you are
starting your career, you only see all the possibilities to fulfill your
goals. As you age and don't get quite there, you start to question if you are
good enough, and wonder if you'll ever reach your goals, or should just give
up.

It takes a lot of discipline to keep the right state of mind.

~~~
mrtksn
Just update your goals. Who says that one accomplishment is better than the
other? You are not a quitter or a failure only because you did not complete a
goal that was arbitrarily created by a younger you or someone else.

Surely some material success needs to be accomplished but it is proven that
above a certain level the returns of it in term of happiness diminish.

You can also forget about goals that younger you imposed on you. I am sure
that even younger you imposed even sillier goals that you just outgrew. Maybe
you aspired to be the best in Counter-Strike, date the most popular girl/guy
in high school or becoming a great PHP developer who works for Yahoo? Who
knows but nobody cares anymore.

You can outgrow the current ones too.

Opportunities and aspirations come and go as we grow, age, get sick or well,
poorer or richer. Don't stick to the old ones and explore the ones that are
appropriate to your situation.

------
glonq
Sure, but did any of them get started after the age of 47? Asking for ... um
... a friend.

------
automathematics
Love this. People like to think they can't do anything as they get older. That
mental state will be a self fulfilling prophecy!

~~~
freyr
Do people really think this way, besides young people and tech managers?

I'm over 35 and my productivity and capacity to learn new things has only
continued to grow over time.

It's true that many exceptional artifacts have been produced by people when
they're relatively young. I think this is more a byproduct of ignorance (i.e.,
seeing the world with a fresh pair of eyes). But as this list shows, maybe age
isn't the critical factor -- maybe it's about diving into something new and
unfamiliar.

~~~
BigJono
I think maybe it's possible that given a very smart programmer with 1-5 years
experience, the value of not having had time to learn the wrong way of doing
things far outweighs the value of another 10 or 20 years experience. A lot of
our 'best practices' seem curiously tailored toward keeping mediocre
developers in check and producing consistent rather than extraordinary
results.

Maybe our industry just grinds the greatness out of you by 25 or 30 unless you
actively fight it.

~~~
AQuantized
What do you think is an example of such a "best practice"?

~~~
BigJono
I mean the classic Java > Lisp decision that Paul Graham is always talking
about surely fits the bill.

------
hackernews7899
If anyone is reading this in dread, there is a recent book that addresses
this:

[https://www.latebloomer.com](https://www.latebloomer.com)

I have no connections to the book. Just recently came across it and it
addresses many of the topics in this thread.

"We live in a society where kids and parents are obsessed with early
achievement, from getting perfect scores on SATs to getting into Ivy League
colleges to landing an amazing job at Google or Facebook–or even better,
creating a startup with the potential to be the next Google or Facebook or
Uber. We see software coders becoming millionaires or even billionaires before
age 30 and feel we are failing if we are not one of them.

But there is good news. A lot of us–most of us–do not explode out of the gates
in life. That was true for author Rich Karlgaard, who had a mediocre academic
career at Stanford (which he got into by a fluke), and after graduating,
worked as a dishwasher, night watchman, and typing temp before finally finding
the inner motivation and drive that ultimately led him to start up a high-tech
magazine in Silicon Valley, and eventually to become the publisher of Forbes
magazine. There is a scientific explanation for why so many of us bloom later
in life. The executive function of our brains don’t mature until age 25–and
later for some. In fact, our brain’s capabilities peak at different ages. We
actually enjoy multiple periods of blooming in our lives.

Based on several years of research, personal experience, and interviews with
neuroscientists and psychologists, and countless people at different stages of
their careers, Late Bloomers reveals how and when we achieve full
potential–and why an algorithmic acuity in math is such an anomaly in terms of
career success."

------
kevindeasis
I read this description, `These writers got their start after age 35—there’s
still hope for you`, and I was like man this is amazing.

But, when these people we're mentioned to have published after 35, it kinda
tells me that these people have been writing for quite some time

Another list that I would like to see is people, who just started writing
extensively after 35 and getting published after 35 : )

~~~
NeedMoreTea
Here's one: Mary Wesley. Only turned to writing in her late 50s. Ten
bestsellers after 70. Took about a dozen years to get her first novel
published, which finally was aged 71:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Wesley](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Wesley)

------
rglover
As long as you're breathing and can do the thing you want to do, your age
doesn't matter. Go do what you want to do.

------
JansjoFromIkea
It really depends on the medium. Writers can continually improve and refine
their skillset throughout their lives and that seems to be the case throughout
history. Whereas musicians seem to either lose inspiration or interest as they
get older, maybe it's just a medium that benefits a lot from the enthusiasm
and discovery of youth.

That being said, I do suspect there will be a much greater number of people
emerging at older ages over the next few decades as more people opt to not go
down the typical path of obligations and more flexible work situations allow
for more time to focus on passions (for those who can afford to not be working
all the time)

------
copperx
A famous writer once said that no one should write a book before 40. So it's
not a totally crazy idea.

~~~
webwielder2
That’s a pretty dumb thing to say given all the excellent books written by
younger people.

~~~
ekianjo
Outliers. Most of the books written by younger people who have no experience
in life will sound immature to anyone above their age.

~~~
baroffoos
How many of those great books written by over 40yo authors had never written
books before that age allowing them to develop their writing skills?

~~~
boffinism
Goodness, if only someone compiled an article's worth of authors who only
first got published after 35. Maybe around 35 of them would be enough to
answer your question.

------
erikig
I like this but I also wish they'd do a " _75 over 75_ " or a " _90 over 90_ "
\- I think those has more longer term value.

------
rurban
William Gaddis published his first novel (Recognitions) with 33, his next (JR)
with 53, his third (Carpenter's Gothic) with 63, his fourth (A Frolic of His
Own) with 72, and his fifth and last (Agapē Agape) with 80. That's it.

He was one of the world best novelists. Good things need time. Many even
thought he is Thomas Pynchon, but his style is imho much better than
Pynchon's. No comparison.

------
cafard
A very odd list.

Yes, Lampedusa had been dead for a year when his book was published--but how
old was he when he wrote it? U.S. Grant was otherwise occupied for much of the
time before he began his memoir, wasn't he? Burgess's _Little Wilson and Big
God_ shows that he did quite a bit of writing before he got _Time for a Tiger_
published.

------
thorstenn
Strange nobody mentions the value of domain knowledge. My opinion is that
there's little difference between young and old developers, but a difference
in their domain knowledge. Valued software developers understand not only
software but also their problem domain.

------
nickjj
I find that I like learning and writing at 35+.

I didn't even start making technical video courses until I was 35 which
involved writing close to 1 million words in a few years. That would be
roughly 4,000 pages of content in book form.

Come to think of it, 35 is when I started writing a blog too.

------
scottlocklin
This is just bizarre. A collection of contemporary nobodies and actually
famous authors who happen to be over 35. We're not talking mathematicians here
or sprinters; these are (mostly) novelists. Of course there are a lot of them
over 35.

------
sunstone
Alister MacLeod wasn't published until he was forty and didn't publish the
fabulous novel "No Great Mischief" until he was 63.

------
benj111
I've found a bug:

"These writers got their start after age 35"

"crop of “Best 35 Writers Under 35,” "

What about the actual 35 year olds?

