
Federal safety agency launches probe of Tesla battery fires - elorant
https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2019-11-01/federal-safety-agency-launches-investigation-of-tesla-battery-fires
======
kjksf
Here's something that will shock you: this story is false.

Based on comments so far most people, even those defending Tesla, accepted the
false premise that NHTSA decided to investigate Tesla on its own.

That's not what happened.

Originally the author claimed NHTSA launched "investigation" into Tesla.

NHTSA contacted LATIMES and said this is "defect petition", not an
investigation, so he reluctantly changed it to "probe" because he "doesn't
want to argue over definition of words".

Here's the proof:
[https://twitter.com/russ1mitchell/status/1190352973013995520](https://twitter.com/russ1mitchell/status/1190352973013995520)

[https://twitter.com/VGrinshpun/status/1191187292288929792](https://twitter.com/VGrinshpun/status/1191187292288929792)
is a longer expose of how biased and misleading this article is.

The short of it is: someone complain to NHTSA and they are bound by the law to
investigate the complaints, hence the "defect petition" (i.e. someone
petitioned NHTSA claiming that Tesla's are defective) even if they don't
believe any of it. Hence request of relevant documents from Tesla.

For context: Russ Mitchell, the author of this article, is a full-on Tesla
hater.

If you read his LA Times articles you'll see an extreme anti-Tesla bias.

His tweeter feed is almost a daily stream of retweeting anti-Tesla news,
making anti-Tesla comments.

That LA Times allows this guy to report on Tesla is just mind-boggling.

~~~
mlindner
The author of the story claims he has no financial position in any company he
reports on in his bio, but it doesn't say he doesn't write paid editorials.

------
imglorp
Two fires were mentioned in OP, 2012-2019. Even if it's 200 that get surfaced,
look at the alternative: about 180,000 highway vehicle fires per year in the
US. Having a compartment full of leaky flammable fluids and hot exhaust
components might tend to do that on occasion.

The bigger story might be the risk/reward tradeoff of those few battery fires
vs everyone's charge capacity.

source: [https://www.statista.com/statistics/377006/nmber-of-us-
highw...](https://www.statista.com/statistics/377006/nmber-of-us-highway-
vehicle-fires/)

~~~
Jamwinner
I have put out even large car fires with a small extinguisher. A lithium fire
takes hours and thousands of gallons of water to subside. There is also the
possible issue of rapid exit when electrics are dead. While the chance is
clearly lower, the risk is higher to you should it occur. Currently there is
no good accepted methodology for firefighters and first responders beyond
'more water' or 'let it burn'. That is a real problem.

~~~
imglorp
This is a strawman argument really: what if this very rare thing happens
(battery fire), and then another really rare thing on top of that
(entrapment); therefore EV bad.

Compared to flammable liquid fires at 180,000 per year, see above, which
really are pretty common.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
>Compared to flammable liquid fires at 180,000 per year,

This is a straw-man argument too. You're comparing battery fires to all
vehicle fires. Ask any mechanic and they will tell you vehicle electronics
systems are the primary source of crispness with stalled electric motors and
rodent damage being the primary sources. Regardless of how it gets its motive
power a vehicle's power-train rarely catches fire compared to other things
that catch fire (which is probably in part why the NHTSA is interested in
this).

------
wcoenen
Tesla itself has previously claimed that its vehicles had fewer fires, per
miles travelled, than other vehicles in 2012-2018: one per 170 million miles
for Tesla, vs one per 19 million miles for all.

[https://www.tesla.com/nl_BE/VehicleSafetyReport](https://www.tesla.com/nl_BE/VehicleSafetyReport)

~~~
dfsvvsdzc
how many of those 19 million cars were < 5 years $30k > cost > $100k pampered
cars?

Strung out million dollar Ferraris and PoS 30 year old death traps shouldn't
count towards the normalization.

~~~
mlindner
If that were true the number of fires would be going down every year. However
on average for the last 5-10 years the number of fires is pretty constant.

See: [https://www.statista.com/statistics/377006/nmber-of-us-
highw...](https://www.statista.com/statistics/377006/nmber-of-us-highway-
vehicle-fires/)

If anything there's a gradual trend of increasing number of fires in the last
6-7 years.

------
olivermarks
Burning Tesla extinguished with 11 tons of water (German)
[https://tirol.orf.at/stories/3015765/](https://tirol.orf.at/stories/3015765/)

~~~
mlindner
By putting water on it they made the fire last longer. That just shows the
fire crews need better training on how to handle electric vehicle fires. This
is not unique to Tesla. You don't use water, you use non-flammable non-water-
based suppressants.

~~~
Symbiote
You use water. That is the official advice from Tesla.

[https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/firstresponders?redirect=no](https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/firstresponders?redirect=no)

~~~
olivermarks
Worth watching these videos in case you are ever in a life or death situation
with an EV [https://youtu.be/2X_WorH4pUw](https://youtu.be/2X_WorH4pUw)

------
byte_c0de
Letter: [https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/inv/2019/INIM-
DP19005-76719.pdf](https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/inv/2019/INIM-
DP19005-76719.pdf)

The timing and urgency seems interesting:

Letter issued: Nov 24

Due date: Nov 28 (Thanksgiving day in the US)

Extension can be requested no later than 5 days before due date (which isn't
possible)

Is this normal for these types of petitions?

Edit: Oh jeez, I totally misread the Issued stamp (which is actually Oct 24).
Ignore this comment.

~~~
toast0
The pdf you linked is stamped October 24, a thursday. Nov 28 is five weeks (35
days) later. I don't know when Tesla received the letter or when it was
released to the public, of course. This article is dated November 1st.

------
QuanticSausage
link related: [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-03-13/when-
elon...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-03-13/when-elon-musk-
tried-to-destroy-tesla-whistleblower-martin-tripp)

~~~
mlindner
This is not related. Please don't spread FUD unrelated to the story.

------
tempsy
I've never been one of the tin foil hat $TSLA bears but can't help but notice
odd things surrounding Tesla that appear highly questionable.

e.g. Elon has tweeted the Cybertruck has 250k+ pre-orders and counting. The
pre-order deposit is only $100 (vs. $1000 when the Tesla 3 came out). The fact
the deposit is only $100 for a $50k+ truck makes me question whether they
intentionally set it at a low price to pump pre-order numbers, knowing full
well that in 2 years time the majority of these people will likely not
actually purchase the truck at all. And at 250k preorders it means Tesla has
raised at least $25M in interest-free loans that they can do whatever with for
the 2 years.

More than that they have no clear idea on how to scale production of this
vehicle at present time, and considering how many Tesla 3 owners have
complained about defects with a "standard" Tesla why would anyone believe that
Tesla can produce high quality Cybertrucks at scale in a reasonable amount of
time to fulfill legitimate preorders?

~~~
aerovistae
Funny you sure sound like one of the tinfoil bears.

~~~
tempsy
Objectively how does a $100 deposit for a $50k good to be delivered in 2+
years make logical sense?

And does anyone actual think that most of these 250k people actually intend to
buy the truck when it comes time to put down the $49900+?

~~~
cagenut
don't think of it as a deposit, think of it as reserving your place in line.
whenever tesla gets around to being able to deliver you have to make up your
mind, but at least you know you won't have to wait at the back of the line if
you decide you do want it.

its an option not a deposit.

tesla obviously doesn't expect them all to convert, in fact they have their
internal numbers on how well the model3 reservations converted so they can
make a much more accurate estimate than either you or I.

tell me a marketing department for a product that can't be shipped for 2 years
that wouldn't kill for a list of not just warm leads, but people who had out
and out handed over money! its like they managed to get the customers to pay
for the marketing budget.

~~~
mdszy
They're still referring to them as "orders" regardless as to whether you
define them as such or not.

~~~
greglindahl
The contract involved is public, so maybe the exact words used to summarize it
isn't that important?

There was a lot of squabbling over the words used to summarize the Model S, X,
and 3 waiting lists, too. I don't think anything good came out of the
discussion.

