
A vegan diet could affect your intelligence - elorant
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200127-how-a-vegan-diet-could-affect-your-intelligence
======
ovx99
From the article:

"Other [nutrients] are found in vegan foods, but only in meagre amounts; to
get the minimum amount of vitamin B6 required each day (1.3 mg) from one of
the richest plant sources, potatoes, you’d have to eat about five cups’ worth
(equivalent to roughly 750g or 1.6lb). Delicious, but not particularly
practical."

And yet when you investigate plant sources of b6,

Banana:

Vitamin B6 per 200 Calories 0.8mg (49% DV)

Beef: Vitamin B6 per 200 Calories 0.4mg (21% DV)

Interesting! Very interesting! I wonder what percentage of readers of this
article are going to investigate what this authoritative science writer says
for themselves? After all, why not trust the expert with a graduate degree
working for the BBC?

So which is it, is the author unable to investigate in the most basic manner
the actual B6 content in foods, when she apparently has a doctorate, or is
this some sort of propagandist trash article with an agenda? Because I'm not
sure what other options there are based on the way the quoted paragraph is
written.

Moreover, what are the implications for the BBC's editorial standards that
something like this was greenlit?

~~~
cies
> is this some sort of propagandist trash article with an agenda?

I'm seriously thinking this is paid journalism.

The BBC published this article a mere 5 days earlier:

[https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200122-are-there-
health...](https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200122-are-there-health-
benefits-to-going-vegan)

A much more balanced article if you ask me. Both journalists are freelancers.

~~~
eMSF
>A much more balanced article if you ask me.

The word you were looking for wasn't balanced, but "pro-vegan". The article
you linked is indeed different; where TFA cited many academic papers, your
preferred article seems to have traded most of that sort for unbacked pseudo-
scientific assertions such as (paraphrasing) that there's often no such thing
as a nutrient deficiency, because your body will simply adapt to make better
use of the stuff it's lacking in, like iron.

~~~
cies
Seriously? She names a study on 555 Kenyan school kids and draws really
farfetched conclusions.

Here's a study on 8000 UKers that shows the opposite, controlling for lots of
factors:

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1790799/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1790799/)

She only shows the small study and self-derives a conclusion, while ignoring
the big study... Hmmm.

Also see "the adventist studies" which were the first or a long string of
studies showing the general health benefits of a plant based diet over an omni
diet.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventist_Health_Studies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventist_Health_Studies)

Bonus, the China Studies:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study)

------
frandroid
> Along with the children who received soup with added oil, they also did the
> best on a test of arithmetic ability.

So huh, really, it was the extra calories, not the meat per se.

> In the winter months, when the sun is weaker, omnivores living in the UK
> have nearly 40% more vitamin D3 in their blood than vegans.

...Because milk is artificially supplemented with D3! Funny that.

> No one has looked into how this might be affecting their cognitive abilities
> yet

So don't be a scaremonger?

> As for Gandhi

That renowned nutritionist!

~~~
cies
It's a very "appeal to emotion" kind of article for a freelance journalist
that claims to be "science".[1]

See what the same BBC published just 5 days earlier.[2]

1: [https://www.zariagorvett.com/](https://www.zariagorvett.com/)

2: [https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200122-are-there-
health...](https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200122-are-there-health-
benefits-to-going-vegan)

------
frandroid
> As for Gandhi, he eventually abandoned his illicit relationship with meat,
> and went back to vegetarianism.

That was a commitment he took for his mother when he went to study law in
England. While today the UK is a hotbed of veg*nism, back then Gandhi had
trouble eating well while being veg in London, and started seeking out other
vegetarians. He eventually found a vegetarian society, and it is through that
society that he became exposed to Henry David Thoreau and his Civil
Disobedience.

The rest, as they say, is world history.

------
Ididntdothis
There is a wide variety of vegan diets. You could eat only potato chips and
drink soda and be vegan. Saying “vegan diet” by itself is pretty meaningless.

~~~
cies
In fact "vegan diet" is almost contradictory. One could argue it is short for
"the diet part of the vegan lifestyle".

Vegans try to behave in a way that does not harm of commodify animals as far
as practicable. Besides the diet this includes attitudes to clothing materials
(leather, wool), entertainment (horse back riding, bull fights, zoos,
petstores), and much of animal testing. One cannot really just take the diet
bit and still call it "vegan". Likewise food is technically not vegan, it is
"suitable for vegans".

The term that IS appropriate here is "plant based". "Plant based food" and the
"plant based diet" are what the author actually, more accurately, wants to say
I believe.

~~~
Ididntdothis
Plant based by itself doesn’t mean much either.

~~~
cies
What do you mean? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant-
based_diet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant-based_diet)

And a person "being vegan" clearly means something too.

Just "vegan diet" and "vegan food" are, well, I'd call 'm short cuts. They're
needlessly unspecific or even a little contradictory. Like saying "I eat
vegetarian": I understand what one tries to say, but it is not entirely
correct usage of language.

~~~
Ididntdothis
My point is that to make any connection between plant based diet and health
you need to be more specific. You can eat balanced meals with fresh vegetables
and good ingredients or you can eat pretzels or potato chips the whole day and
drink soda. Both are plant based but the outcome will probably be different.

~~~
cies
Exactly, and that's where the term "whole food plant based" comes to rescue.
There a serious list of MDs backing this group of diets based on strong
evidence.

------
ianai
This is incorrect. B12 is made from bacteria widespread in the “wild
environment “, but almost completely washed it of the modern diet. The only
reason non-vegans don’t typically have to worry about B12 is that
cyanocobalamin or other B12s are added into common foods. There’s an argument
that cyanocobalamin is bad for you though as your liver creates cyanide in
processing it for use in your body. Here’s the quote from the article.

“”” One of the most well-known challenges for vegans is getting enough vitamin
B12, which is only found in animal products like eggs and meat. “””

~~~
im3w1l
What you say may be true, but regardless of how it came to be, it's my
understanding that b12 deficiency is much more common in vegans than meat
eaters. So vegans _do_ have to be careful in the short term. Maybe in the long
term they should campaign for b12 enriching common vegan foods.

~~~
cies
We all take the supplement.

> it's my understanding that b12 [deficiency] is much more common in vegans
> than [omnies]

Nope. Just slightly more common. And I think by the rate that B12 awareness is
growing in the vegan movement we will soon see that vegans in general (so
without only counting the non B12 supplementing ones) have better test
results.

Also the reason B12 is in much of animal products (especially the non grass
fed, bio-industrially "produced" animals), is because those animals get B12
supplements in their feed (to the benefit of the animal's health(!)). So
indirectly the omnis often take the same supplement.

------
Polylactic_acid
This is a pretty well written article. Hopefully people read past the
headline. The most important bit being "could" affect. Some limited tests have
been done on kids which found some difference but its not clear if it has any
effect on adults.

It also sounds like a vegan diet with a few nutritional supplements could
entirely solve the issue. At the very least we know that we can hugely reduce
our meat consumption with positive outcomes.

~~~
Dumblydorr
How is it well written? They make claims about massive swaths of the global
population based on a single study from an African school giving kids snacks.

~~~
Polylactic_acid
The article didn't seem to assert them as fact and only suggested that from
the limited research, this seems to be the data.

------
theatraine
Kombucha is a great vegan source of B12, one of the key nutrients mentioned in
the article. The B12 in kombucha actually comes from the culture itself.

~~~
frandroid
Neat!

------
markstos
I have more energy since shifting towards a vegan diet-- mid-day slumps are
rare now and I have more energy after work in the evening as well.

Work on complex coding and DevOps tasks continues as before.

~~~
dogma1138
Was your previous non-vegan diet actually good? As in high on fibrous veggies,
moderate amount of complex carbs, low on sugar and high on high quality
protein?

When people switch to vegan they essentially rely more on home cooked meals
and stay away from junk it doesn’t mean that a vegan diet is better than a non
vegan diet of the same quality.

If you switch from twinkies to lentil patties and cauliflower rice it’s no
wonder that you feel better.

~~~
abfan1127
I came here to say this. When I switched from a typical American diet of
crappy carbs, soda, and other sugar based crap to a, High Fat, High Protein
diet, I got a ton of energy, slept better, etc. While I see a ton of value in
my dietary choices, it was the lack of sugar that made life better.

~~~
somehnguy
I did the keto diet for the majority of last year to lose weight. It was
extremely successful and I lost 75 pounds. I noticed the exact same thing you
did in regards to energy levels and overall just feeling better. My energy
levels did not fluctuate at all during the day, even post heavy meals. I also
didn't seem to have any of those random days where you just feel like you're
dragging along.

------
Dumblydorr
The only source study cited is of schoolchildren receiving a snack in a low
income nation. This is bad scientific reporting, they way overstep their
bounds, typical BBC article.

~~~
cies
Check out this much larger (n=8000 instead of n=555) and more in depth study
in a developed nation (UK).

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1790799/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1790799/)

Teaser quote:

    
    
        In a large representative population study
        of more than 8000 British men and women,
        intelligence in childhood was associated
        with a vegetarian diet in mid-adulthood, and
        this was independent of educational
        attainment and social class.

------
cgh
Great to see they mentioned creatine and carnosine. Creatine in particular is
notable for its proven effectiveness as an athletic supplement but it has a
host of other, lesser-known benefits[0]. It's only found in animals, although
your body does produce baseline amounts from other amino acids.

0\.
[https://examine.com/supplements/creatine/](https://examine.com/supplements/creatine/)

------
KitDuncan
What a weak article and study. I am not familiar with BBCs content, but I
would have expected it to be better quality.

~~~
markstos
What was weak about the article and study?

~~~
gregcrv
"Others are found in vegan foods, but only in meagre amounts; to get the
minimum amount of vitamin B6 required each day (1.3 mg) from one of the
richest plant sources, potatoes, you’d have to eat about five cups’ worth
(equivalent to roughly 750g or 1.6lb). Delicious, but not particularly
practical."

Chickpeas, canned, 1 cup 1.1mg of vitamin B6 55% DV Source:
[https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminB6-HealthProfession...](https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminB6-HealthProfessional/)

And let's not talk about their claim that omega3 cannot be found in plants or
that vitamin D can only come from supplements...

~~~
Zod666
I don't know much about this, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but plant
based omega 3's have a horrible conversion rate don't they?

~~~
ovx99
They have a lesser conversion rate, but what most paleo/anti-vegan arguments
neglect to mention in terms of plant omega-3 sources is that if you simply eat
more total ALA, the net omega-3 will be the same to your body. Seems obvious,
but people never seem to acknowledge that. It's not such a lesser conversion
rate that this isn't practical or possible. Not to mention there's studies
showing alternative benefits of ALA despite having less conversion rate
overall. Similarly with krill oil -- there's less EPA/DHA compared to fish oil
per gram but it's utilized differently by the body and has shown variations in
bioavailability when measured (krill vs fish oil is an ongoing topic of
interest).

~~~
victor106
[https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/3-types-of-
omega-3](https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/3-types-of-omega-3)

From the linked article:-

\- not all omega-3s are created equal. Among 11 types, the 3 most important
are ALA, EPA, and DHA.

\- ALA is mostly found in plants, while EPA and DHA are mostly found in animal
foods like fatty fish.

\- Alpha-linolenic acid (ALA) is the most common omega-3 fatty acid in your
diet.

\- It’s mostly found in plant foods and needs to be converted into EPA or DHA
before it can be utilized by your body for something other than energy.

\- However, this conversion process is inefficient in humans. Only a small
percentage of ALA is converted into EPA — and even less into DHA (3Trusted
Source, 4Trusted Source, 5Trusted Source, 6Trusted Source).

\- When ALA is not converted to EPA or DHA, it is simply stored or used as
energy like other fats.

\- Some observational studies link a diet rich in ALA to a reduced risk of
death from heart disease, while others show an increased risk of prostate
cancer (7Trusted Source).

\- This increase in prostate cancer risk was not associated with the other
main omega-3 types, EPA and DHA, which seem to protect against this cancer
(8Trusted Source).

The linked article has links to sources.

------
LatteLazy
"Intelligence", a concept that is difficult to define and has no agreed
measurement method or standard.

"could" a pseudonym for "might" which is also a pseudonym for "might not".

------
lmilcin
One thing is for sure, if you go vegan you need to learn to compose your diet
to ensure your body gets everything it needs. It is not impossible or even
difficult. It just costs a little bit of effort, that's all.

------
cies
Seriously BBC?

The plant based diet (the diet component of being vegan) is found adequate by
the WHO for all stages of life.[1]

Now this article if full of picking some studies that have proven that in some
case something was wrong with a some form of plant based diet, or less optimal
than the form of omni diet the control was on.

And this is true! There are unhealthy plant based diets, and there are quite
healthy omni diets. And --thanks BBC for pointing it out once again-- us plant
eaters should be careful of some nutrients we may lack (as should omnis) AND
some forms food we may over consume (as should omnis). Pretty much the only
one that plant based eaters are more lacking in than omnis is B12. Otherwise
plant eaters usually score overall BETTER than omnis, but sadly the BBC leaves
this information out of this article (meat industry promo piece), gladly they
published this kind of info in a separate article 5 DAYS EARLIER.[2]

There are a whole lot of diets within the plant based diet. A particularly
healthy one, according to research, is the Whole Food Plant Based diet. And
most MDs (which are quite a few) recommending this diet do underline the need
for B12 supplementation (both in plant eaters and in omnis).

While this article come with a study of 555 Kenyan kids being given omni food
scoring better than the group given plant food. Ok.

Let me show you this study:

> In a large representative population study of more than 8000 British men and
> women, intelligence in childhood was associated with a vegetarian diet in
> mid-adulthood, and this was independent of educational attainment and social
> class.[3]

It's bigger (n=8000), it in a developed nation (UK), it controls for all kinds
of factors and concludes a correlation between intelligence and vegetarianism.
No causation though. But I recon the 555 Kenya school children study also did
not prove causation.

So? Why would the BBC publish such a piece? In clear contradiction to
something they published 5 days earlier? An article that cherry picks to the
point it's sneakily suggestive? Every one may judge for themselves but I think
it is paid/compensated journalism, at a govt owned outlet. Needles to say, the
BBC lost some more point for me today.

1: [https://www.plantbasednews.org/lifestyle/the-largest-
organiz...](https://www.plantbasednews.org/lifestyle/the-largest-organization-
of-food-nutrition-professionals-admits-vegan-diets-are-suitable-for-all)

2: [https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200122-are-there-
health...](https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200122-are-there-health-
benefits-to-going-vegan)

3:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1790799/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1790799/)

------
brodouevencode
This post will most likely be ratio'ed pretty quickly.

------
amriksohata
According to the game changers documentary, even meat like chicken has to have
added vitamins like b12 which is the only reason meat eaters get that extra
vitamin, so supplementing is for all

------
jnaddef
TL;DR There is no scientific study proving one way or the other and whether
you are vegan or not if you do not care about the quality and diversity of
what you eat it will probably affect your body and your brain.

------
goldenkey
Wild, sustainably caught fish is the diet to go for if you care about the
environment and your own health. I'm not going to give flak to vegans, their
self-sacrifice is indicative of real care for their fellow beings.

~~~
yesenadam
>Wild, sustainably caught fish is the diet to go for if you care about the
environment

But not if you care about fish.

I'm always gobsmacked hearing talk like this...from people that apparently
have been taught to view animals as...just machines, tools for humans, as if
they don't have a life of their own. Just atoms at the disposal of humans.
"Stock." Somehow the limit of our "care" is killing them at a rate
("sustainably caught") that enables we can go on doing so.

"Self-sacrifice"? Is it a self-sacrifice for you to not, say, own slaves or
eat people? No. Those things seem wrong so you don't do them, or they doesn't
even occur to you as options, although they used to be societal habits. Not
eating animals seems like that to me.

~~~
goldenkey
Everything dies. As long as it is ethical and not torture, I don't see an
issue with fishing. Veganism lowers the brainpower output of a human enough to
make the overall output works integral substantially impacted. That brainpower
lost could be used to alleviate animal suffering like AI models substituting
animal testing, etc etc. I personally am using my brain power to create
Roylent. It'll solve our food crisis without any plant or animal deaths.
Contact me if you are a VC/Angel interested in funding the revolution in
eco/carbon friendly, suffering free food.

~~~
yesenadam
>Everything dies.

As a step in an argument, this doesn't look promising. And..?

>As long as it is ethical and not torture, I don't see an issue with fishing.

Yes, sure, people have to decide for themselves where on the scale of life
from bacteria/viruses to, uh, humans, they draw the ethical "eat/not eat"
line.

I couldn't parse/understand the two sentences after that, sorry. Good luck
with your product... Oh, without _plant_ deaths?! hehe. Sounds like you have
something more complicated than a single dividing line.

