
Show HN: Learn iPhone and iPad development in less than an hour - sidwyn
http://diveintoios.com/home
======
6ren
Just from the first sample (<http://diveintoios.com/samples>), it seems a bit
heavy, listing many things that aren't necessary to get started. Customers can
get that detail from a reference book/website (e.g. you could supply it as a
supplementary pdf).

I think for a video, people would like the experience of being guided through
by someone knowledgeable. They don't want a book; and they don't want a dry
lecture. They want a substitute for an expert friend at their elbow. You don't
need to impress with exhaustive detail - a beginner can't absorb it anyway.

So, for example, just say "⌘B to build and run it", instead of the several
commands you go through. And not list all those methods for UIViewController.
Instead, start with what _is_ a UIViewController, in terms of the user-
experience. i.e. why would you want one? Then, once the listener is motivated,
introduce how to use it with an example.

I'm reminded of Steve Jobs, always thinking of the user's point of view (not
the complete technical details); and using huge fonts with a small amount of
text on slides.

But... honestly... maybe some people want _exactly_ what you are doing. (if
your younger self would have benefited from it, that's strong evidence that
someone else would too.) Including the accent, your youth, audio quality etc.
For each person that X is a negative, there can be another for whom it's a
positive. Target those people who value what you value. You don't need to
please all the people - just _really_ please a small number, and that's enough
for a one-man venture. Once you have a foothold, you can broaden your scope.

(Of course, if you strongly agree with some of the suggestions here, then they
are now your values - and you should adopt them!)

~~~
sidwyn
Thanks. This post is much more encouraging than others.

I guess there's too much text in some slides. But then again, the text is
required to supplement the tutorials. Guess I've got to figure a way to make
it less heavy.

P.S. I did start with what a UIViewController is, it's just that I cut to the
part with the methods and all. My bad.

------
rb2k_
This might seem a bit rude, especially because it takes a lot of work to
launch something like this, but I'll try to give really honest feedback. So
please don't take this as an attack on the project, but rather an unfiltered
'brain dump':

I personally wouldn't be compelled to buy it mainly because:

\- I hear a "non-native" accent. I'm not a native english speaker myself, but
for some reason this makes it very hard for me to listen over a longer period
of time. I have the same problem with podcasts. This might be something very
particular to my tastes though.

\- The trainer sounds too young. I love to have people teach me things that
have "been around". Somebody that knows Smalltalk/Lisp/... might be able to
explain to me WHY things are done in a certain way as opposed to HOW they are
done. Looking a bit at the linkedin profile behind the site creator
(<http://www.linkedin.com/pub/sidwyn-koh/26/4/495>), I'll have to say that it
doesn't really change my impression.

\- The audio quality of the samples isn't that great. It's either audio
compression artefacts or a bad microphone. Especially at that price, I'd like
something as basic as the audio quality to be good.

\- The website logo looks like MS Paint art

~~~
sidwyn
Thanks for your feedback. I value these comments over those who slam the
product/website without any suggestions.

1) I'm from Singapore and English is my first language. 2) Good point. 3) I've
actually been experimenting with mics, but I'll definitely re-record once I
find the right one. 4) I hired a designer from dribbble to help me out. MS
Paint Art, seriously?

Again, thanks for your suggestions.

~~~
earl
I think the gp might mean that he doesn't care for the spray of pixels around
your logo -- the stuff highlighted in the arrows in my image. To be honest, it
isn't to my taste either.

[http://earlh.com/dump/hn/20111016-ctj3ptc2jqf1m46bg1sh4skhis...](http://earlh.com/dump/hn/20111016-ctj3ptc2jqf1m46bg1sh4skhis.jpg)

~~~
matthewking
As they are placed exactly where a shadow would fall I think they are
deliberate. I actually really like the design of the site.

------
webwright
This seems a little spendy for video tutorials (peepcode is a good benchmark).
Have you considered breaking them up into smaller bits and selling the same
$50 content for 5 blocks @ $10 apiece?

This would also obviate some of the risk for the buyer? I.e. if they buy the
first one and hate it, they aren't out $50.

(btw, don't get me wrong- $50 is CHEAP if you guys do a good job-- I'm wearing
my marketeer hat with this comment)

~~~
davesims
This was exactly the model that led me to buy the full subscription to
PeepCode after the first screencast -- watched one, was very useful to me,
then bought the lot.

~~~
sidwyn
No problem. Feel free to get the Basic Package for now. Will be happy to
upgrade you if you wanna buy the rest too. Remember to use the promo code
'hackernews' for a 10% discount.

~~~
edu
But the basic package is already $50

~~~
sidwyn
Here's a breakdown:

Basic Package - You get the Basic Course

Premium Package - You get the Basic and Intermediate Courses

Complete Package - You get the Basic, Intermediate, Advanced Courses

If you change your mind and wanna upgrade after watching the videos, feel free
to drop me an email at sidwyn AT diveintoios.com.

Again, we're working to have more customizable options for you guys.

~~~
runjake
And the $50 starting price is why I'm not interested. I prefer the model of
"micropayments" -- being able to purchase smaller increments for a lower cost.
I need $50 too much to gamble it on a video. I can't be sure it'll be worth
it.

------
ig1
Isn't "Dive Into" a trademark of Mark Pilgrim ? - trading off of someone-
else's brand is kind of tacky.

~~~
thepumpkin1979
I don't know if that's true but considering that apparently he committed info-
suicide (or something like that...
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3073798>) I highly doubt he will sue
anybody at this point.

~~~
naner
It is not his _Trademark_ but it is his trademark.

I don't think it is really an issue of it being illegal, it just gives the
appearance that this person is trying to sell his wares on top of Mark's
reputation.

------
simonbrown
I'm not interested in iOS development, so take this with a grain of salt, but
I think it should provide a brief introduction for free to allow people to
evaluate it. Also, I assume it's possible to upgrade packages by paying the
difference?

~~~
sidwyn
We're working on upgrading. If you realize you want to upgrade after watching
the video, drop me a line at sidwyn @ diveintoios.com. Be happy to accede your
request.

Of course, samples are available! Here they are:
<http://diveintoios.com/samples>

~~~
Zakuzaa
Videos not loading on iPad.

~~~
sidwyn
Thanks for pointing this out! Gonna attempt to fix this.

In the meantime, please use the direct Vimeo links:

Basic Package: <http://vimeo.com/30582950> Premium Package:
<http://vimeo.com/30583073> Complete Package: <http://vimeo.com/30583124>

------
8ig8
Does Mark Pilgrim have any rights on "Dive into..."? For example Dive into
Python, Dive into HTML5.

------
localhost3000
not to say this is the case here, but i'm always cautious with things like
this where the main selling points are the credentials of the instructor (see
'about' section)...if the guy is such a badass app developer why is he trying
to make money as an instructor? shouldn't he be getting rich building...well,
apps?

~~~
jeffreymcmanus
This is a polite way of saying that "those who can't do, teach".

It also happens to be bullshit, most often repeated by people who have never
actually taught.

One of the best ways to achieve mastery (particularly with technology) is to
teach it. In other words, teaching engineering to others makes you a much
better engineer.

~~~
sev
Agreed, so he's using this job as a means to become a better engineer? One
he's not? (Just alluding to your point, not saying he is or isn't a good
engineer)

~~~
sidwyn
Yes, I definitely am. Teaching how to code and coding itself are two very
different aspects, though they revolve around code itself. Prepping the
material forced me (in a good way) to scrutinize my code to ensure 100%
accuracy.

------
jeffreymcmanus
So, congrats on launching this, but I have to say, it's going to be very
challenging for you to compete against lynda.com at this price point. They
have a terrific iOS instructor and a broad library of professionally-produced
videos on this, and their cost is $25/month.

There's plenty of room to compete (and I wouldn't suggest that you attempt to
compete on price, since video-only learning becomes commoditized quickly), but
if you're going to be competitive you will have to convey some sort of value
other than "learn how to code in iOS with our video!!1!"

~~~
sidwyn
Interesting. Haven't seen Lynda but I've seen other sites that offer iOS
tutorials as well.

Ours is 'Learn iPhone/iPad development in less than an hour'. It's targeted at
the people who can't concentrate for long, and those who find the learning
curve too steep.

------
sidwyn
Hi guys, launched a service to kickstart iOS development and beat the learning
curve. We provide short and succinct tutorials to get you started. Would love
to hear your feedback/comments. Thanks!

P.S. Use 'hackernews' upon checkout for a 10% discount :)

~~~
revorad
Can you say realistically how quickly I can make a basic photo sharing app
using your tutorial, if I know zero iOS programming, but am reasonably good at
Ruby, Rails, HTML, CSS, JS?

~~~
steve8918
I've been programming C/C++ for 15+ years. I would have to say if you know
nothing about C/C++ programming, then your biggest hurdles will be:

1) learning how to program in Objective C 2) learning how to use Xcode
(probably one of the worst IDEs I've ever used) 3) learning how to use the
specific parts of the iPhone like iteracting with the camera, etc.

There will be a lot of issues to deal with, such as accessing the camera,
storing the photo, uploading it to the web site, etc, that are non-trivial.
Without a knowledge of C/C++, it might take you on the order of months, not
days.

I picked up "Beginning iPhone 4 Development" and was new to both iPhone
develoment and MacOS. It took me about 2 weeks to get a working app that just
posted text to a Google App Engine backend, although a lot of progress was
made over 1 weekend of straight coding and playing around. My biggest
frustration was learning how to use Xcode, but I basically just followed the
book and it ended up being a pretty good tutorial.

I don't want to be a hater, but $50 for a video tutorial that promises to
teach you iPhone development in under 1 hr sounds unlikely. There are A LOT of
details that need to be addressed, and I feel like the "Beginning iPhone 4
Development" book is pretty damn good as an introduction, so that's probably
money better spent.

~~~
patrickk
I've used the Beginning iPhone 4 Development book too and I've found it
excellent.

Also I used the iPhone development course from Stanford on iTunes U, which is
quite comprehensive (these guys will be pretty much competing with this
series, which is top notch and also free):

[http://itunes.apple.com/us/itunes-u/developing-apps-for-
ios-...](http://itunes.apple.com/us/itunes-u/developing-apps-for-ios-
hd/id395605774)

~~~
rdouble
It will be hard to compete with the free Stanford courses. Especially since
the sample looks like it's almost the same format.

It would be better to go the Peepcode route and have ala carte mini videos
about specific tasks. How to make a digital photo filter, how to get CoreData
working with iCloud, how to make a complicated UI, etc. There are a lot of
materials out there about beginning iOS development. There are not very many
materials about intermediate-advanced iOS development.

The other option would be to really amp up the production values. All video
lessons I've seen, including the Stanford ones, are simply too slow. I usually
watch them in 2x speed. The other problem is that the Xcode view is never
optimized. It's always slightly difficult to see the text. Much moreso if you
are watching it on an external TV set.

~~~
Luyt
Thanks for the mention of the Stanford courses: I just watched the first one,
in which Paul Hegarty explains iOS' interpretation of the MVC pattern
(including iOS-specific terms like 'outlet', 'delegate', 'target', 'action'
etc., which are used in Interface Builder and XCode).

His slides are awesome too. He uses my favourite font: Comic Sans MS ;-)

~~~
sidwyn
I've found the font a bit too distracting, but the content is definitely good
:)

------
gacek
Since you're here - sidwyn - Why would I use your video tutorials instead of
Stanfords iOS course from iTunes university?

~~~
sidwyn
I've found the Stanford videos a tad bit too long. Our courses are much
shorter, and you can learn to build a simple app in an hour.

------
papaver
A few suggestions:

\- Kill the power point like slides in the videos, they are not very useful.
Such information is better represented as text, so it can be searched and
easily referenced.

\- Lower the price for the video's they are way too high. I imagine 99% of
this information can be easily found on google with a simple search.

\- The videos look unprofessional to me, seems like they need an editing pass.

You may get more traction if you release the basic package for free. This
allows users to evaluate the videos and buy more when they want the
intermediate and advanced courses. At the current price I wasn't even enticed
to look at the sample video after seeing the $50 price point for a basic
package. Good luck.

------
curt
Move a sample video to the landing page or put a big "view first video for
free" button on the page. You want a persons eyes to be drawn to 3 things:
logo/call to action, packages, and the sample.

------
norswap
Reminded me of this : <http://norvig.com/21-days.html>

------
drKarl
Just bought the Complete Package, 99.70€ with the discount. I know Java,
Scala, C, C++, Python, HTML5/CSS3 (Haml/Sass), Javascript/jQuery, C# and
Unity3D but have never coded with Objective-C, let's see if I can really beat
the learning curve with your videos!

~~~
jc4p
How do you feel about your purchase? I was ready to buy until I viewed a
sample and decided I couldn't handle the accent and audio quality. Does the
quality of the video take your mind off this?

------
stevederico
Adding an embedded 5 minute free getting started video, could improve your
conversion rate.

------
nhangen
The problem I have with most iOS material is that it's either too simple, or
too advanced, often leaving no room for those that understand the concepts but
need help connecting the dots between the easy and the advanced.

Provided the OP actually knows what he's doing, and there's no reason to doubt
that, I'm glad to see him doing this, as I believe that the more material on
the market the better. I like learning from different teachers, even if they
cover the same thing. That said, this was a bit pricey for my tastes, but
that's only because I've spent so much prior to today.

------
joshsharp
I don't like the idea of attempting to build on the "Dive Into" brand without
offering the materials online for free, as Mark Pilgrim has (or did, before he
removed it all). It feels opportunistic.

~~~
inovica
I thoroughly agree with this. Mark might not have trademarked "Dive into.."
but in this space everyone would think there is a link. I have no problems
with people starting a business to transfer knowledge, but I think it would
have been better under a different name

------
rane
What a surprise. Only a commercial product would advertise learning software
development in "less than an hour".

------
subaruWRX55
I'm new here. Can someone explain to me how a website advertisement gets into
top rating in Hacker News?

------
auston
Are the courses progressive? Meaning, in order to do Premium is Basic
required. Or can I buy Premium & learn everything in Basic?

~~~
sidwyn
It's a little complicated for now, we're trying to work on simplifying it.

Basic Package - You get the Basic Course

Premium Package - You get the Basic and Intermediate Courses

Complete Package - You get the Basic, Intermediate, Advanced Courses

If you realize you need/want to upgrade after finishing the videos, feel free
to drop me an email sidwyn @ diveintoios.com to upgrade. Would be happy to
accede to your request.

~~~
allwein
You need to break this out into course collections as well. For example, the
only thing I'm interested in is the mapkit and web services stuff in the
advanced course. I already know everything in the basic and intermediate
courses. There doesn't seem to be a way for me to buy the advanced courses
only without getting the complete package?

~~~
sidwyn
You will be able to do so in a few days.

------
ScottMFisher
$50 is too high. I'm pretty sure you'd more than double the sales if you
halved the price. Try doing some A/B testing on this.

------
zubr1768
How does this differ from the Stanford course?

------
noduerme
Ha. The last time you could make a full $49 by putting something in the app
store was the time these guys lost their contract with a western company.

Listen... you hear that? That's the Titanic creaking.

------
m0wfo
Love how this ranks immediately above Jeff Atwood's "Serving at the Pleasure
of the King". HN kids are as fickle as they are retarded.

~~~
lukifer
A non-homogenous community is a very, very good thing.

------
shareme
Lok guys, objectiveC + iOS UI apis is somewhat harder than mobile java..know
befoe you buy

