

Obama 'not told of Merkel phone bugging' - spikels
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24698142

======
acqq
The title (" _Obama_ 'not told..") doesn't match the contest of the article:

"NSA spokeswoman Vanee Vines: ' _[General] Alexander did not discuss with
President Obama in 2010_ an alleged foreign intelligence operation involving
German Chancellor Merkel, _nor has he ever discussed_ alleged operations
involving Chancellor Merkel, news reports claiming otherwise are not true.'

BBC: _The statement does not make it clear whether the president was informed
of the bugging operation by other means._ "

Emphasis mine: the statement as published there involves only "Gen.
Alexander's discussions." Well done, spokespersons' statement and media's
titles.

~~~
unreal37
It's too bad they can't issue a blanket denial. "The President did NOT have a
conversation about this topic on this date in time with this specific person."
Worst denial ever.

Reminds me of Bill Clinton trying to parse the word "is" to only mean present
tense, not past tense.

~~~
bennyg
When you're battling with semantics to skirt by underlying truths and morals,
you should notice there's a problem. Maybe I'm alone in this sentiment
however.

------
refurb
Apparently this isn't a surprise to most within the intelligence community
[1].

"France spies on the US just as the US spies on France, the former head of
France’s counter-espionage and counter-terrorism agency said Friday,
commenting on reports that the US National Security Agency (NSA) recorded
millions of French telephone calls.

Bernard Squarcini, head of the Direction Centrale du Renseignement Intérieur
(DCRI) intelligence service until last year, told French daily Le Figaro he
was “astonished” when Prime Minister Jean-Marc Ayrault said he was "deeply
shocked" by the claims.

“I am amazed by such disconcerting naiveté,” he said in the interview. “You’d
almost think our politicians don’t bother to read the reports they get from
the intelligence services.”"

[1] [http://www.france24.com/en/20131024-nsa-france-spying-
squarc...](http://www.france24.com/en/20131024-nsa-france-spying-squarcini-
dcri-hollande-ayrault-merkel-usa-obama)

~~~
Sharlin
Some politicians probably are simply naive; those who aren't instead have to
put up some theatre to pretend to the voters they didn't know what is going
on.

~~~
jmspring
May be. But we saw what Hoover running the FBI turned into. It certainly seems
like it is time to take a close look at what "government agencies" are up to
and start holding them accountable to the population at large.

------
discardorama
Ms. Merkel can always give Snowden permanent asylum. Or, for that matter, any
of the EU countries who are so upset about all this spying. What's stopping
them?

Put your money where your mouth is: if you think Snowden's revelations are
real and show egregious conduct on the part of the NSA, then give him asylum!

~~~
pcrh
Even if that doesn't happen straight-away, Snowden will likely find that
fairly easy to achieve once this scandal dies down a bit.

~~~
threeseed
On what basis ? Snowden committed a crime and under existing extradition
treaties would be sent back to the US.

Diplomatic incidents happen all the time. It doesn't affect the law.

~~~
pcrh
Diplomatic incidents are resolved diplomatically. Numerous
spies/traitors/whistle-blowers/revolutionaries for numerous countries are now
living normal lives across the world despite having being exposed.

Snowden has no chance of living in the US ever again, but that doesn't mean
that he couldn't have a life elsewhere.

The fact that heads of government are now effectively gathering on Snowden's
side improves his chances that one or another of them will approve asylum
status for him, although it won't happen in a hurry.

------
mtimjones
Typical argument. Obama knows nothing if there's any possibility that it could
harm him. How many times will they use this argument.

Ultimately, he's commander in chief, and if we use the same approach as
applied against Bush, then Obama is responsible.

~~~
protomyth
Steve Jobs said it pretty well for corporate VPs, it probably should apply to
the President:

One such lesson could be called the "Difference Between the Janitor and the
Vice President," and it's a sermon Jobs delivers every time an executive
reaches the VP level. Jobs imagines his garbage regularly not being emptied in
his office, and when he asks the janitor why, he gets an excuse: The locks
have been changed, and the janitor doesn't have a key. This is an acceptable
excuse coming from someone who empties trash bins for a living. The janitor
gets to explain why something went wrong. Senior people do not. "When you're
the janitor," Jobs has repeatedly told incoming VPs, "reasons matter." He
continues: "Somewhere between the janitor and the CEO, reasons stop
mattering." That "Rubicon," he has said, "is crossed when you become a VP."

[http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2011/08/25/how-apple-works-
insid...](http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2011/08/25/how-apple-works-inside-the-
worlds-biggest-startup/)

~~~
aaronbrethorst
[http://www.trumanlibrary.org/buckstop.htm](http://www.trumanlibrary.org/buckstop.htm)

------
gmuslera
Not sure what is worse: that Obama knew since 2010 that Merkel (and other
allied countries leaders) was being spied, or that he had no clue of what the
NSA were doing.

If he don't know what the government is doing, who is in charge then?

~~~
terhechte
I suppose the NSA is in charge. Presidents change all the time. High NSA
officials could stay for decades. What's more, when somebody becomes
President, they probably have amassed enough confidential information on that
person to make sure that the NSA institutional interests are protected. (Puts
tin-foil-hat of again)

------
tn13
So Obama is walking on the same path as India's PM Dr. Manmohan Singh who is
not aware of anything worth knowing.

I was once caught in some ordinary crime. I plead not guilty saying I was not
aware of the law. Judge told me that ignorance of law is not an argument court
can accept. Well, it was about about justice, law and constitution. I guess
all this surveillance business does not come under any of those.

------
ihsw
Perhaps the rest of the world should take a cue from America -- direct
diplomacy is dead. Cloak and dagger methods are now more consistent and
accurate than engaging another nation directly through the departments of
foreign affairs.

The American President and the American State Department are hopeless and
useless now.

------
weslly
Plausible deniability in a nutshell.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plausible_deniability](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plausible_deniability)

------
PeterisP
Just as in Casablanca - "I am shocked — shocked — to find that gambling is
going on in here!"

~~~
Sharlin
A clip of the scene in question:
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Gf8NK1WAOc](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Gf8NK1WAOc)

------
adamors
"believe nothing until it has been officially denied"

------
tokenizer
Let's assume Obama had no idea, nay, not even a clue that Merkel was being
spied on. What should the actions of the US be?

 _Good Foreign Policy_ : Call for an investigation with a reputable committee,
and actually change laws or procedures, that make this action, or the
discovery of this action impossible to happen going forward.

 _Bad Foreign Policy_ : Apologize to the leader of the nation, offer no
solutions, and attempt to sideline the dramatic news.

Now instead of what should be the actions of the US in this situation, what do
you think they will actually do?

------
devx
I don't buy it.

[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/104...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/10407282/Barack-
Obama-approved-tapping-Angela-Merkels-phone-3-years-ago.html)

Plus they have a frigging NSA base in Berlin:

[http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/cover-story-
how-...](http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/cover-story-how-nsa-
spied-on-merkel-cell-phone-from-berlin-embassy-a-930205.html)

And if it were true, it may actually be worse. How can Obama still claim
"relax people, no abuses have happened" with one corner of the mouth, and then
with the other say "oh, well I didn't know about these!"

Same goes for their continuous claim that NSA is run like a very tight ship
and it's audited thoroughly, yet they didn't know what Snowden took for
_months_ , and some of the internal abuses were found out _years_ later, by
the employees _own confessions_. Yeah, sounds like an air-tight auditing
system to me, too.

------
adventured
Others are claiming that he did in fact know about it for years:

[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/104...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/10407282/Barack-
Obama-approved-tapping-Angela-Merkels-phone-3-years-ago.html)

