

Revelations about the French Big Brother - fellowshipofone
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&ie=UTF8&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2013/07/04/revelations-sur-le-big-brother-francais_3441973_3224.html

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jgrahamc
So, let's see. The NSA does it, GCHQ does it, DGSE does it. The operating
assumption should be that all countries are monitoring all communications for
at least metadata. Personally, I would not be the slightest bit surprised to
learn that all phone calls are being recorded and as much Internet traffic as
possible.

I'm not surprised by this news at all. The technical means have been there for
years and years. And the desire has been there for much longer. Anyone who
reads the history of SIGINT will understand that the desire to capture all
communications is perfectly normal in that environment.

Snowden's "revelations" are completely unsurprising to anyone who has thought
about this and the technology. I'm still waiting for him to reveal something
actually surprising.

~~~
tomelders
And for what, with surveillance like this, how is there still crime and
terrorism?

either it's ineffective or they're overselling the capabilities or they're
more interested in dissidents, and judging by the way activists and whistle
blowers are being treated, i suspect this is the real reason these systems
exist.

EDIT: Or there's some other threat none of us know about and these systems are
working perfectly at keeping us all safe... but that's a long shot.

~~~
threeseed
So the government is NOT trying to prevent terrorism but instead has setup
these elaborate systems just to prevent activism and whistle blowing. You sure
that aliens aren't involved somewhere in there ?

The FACTS are this. The head of the NSA has testified in front of congress
that over 50 potential terrorist acts were thwarted because of PRISM since
9/11 including bombing of the NY subways and stock exchange. And there is no
evidence that the infrastructure the NSA has is available to every single cop
in every town in order to fight crime.

~~~
PavlovsCat
That it's a fact that he said that doesn't make it a fact that it is so.

Oh, and the irony of thinking otherwise and mocking "tinfoil"; I never saw
anyone resorting to that who didn't strike me as projecting. It's for example
a conspiracy theory to simply note that buildings don't just fall into
themselves because of office furniture fires, but it's _not_ a conspiracy
theory to believe Saddam is about to unleash WMD without even being able to
name what he'd gain from it. It doesn't take genius to note that the deciding
factor is not how realistic or dumb fucking stupid something is, or even
physically possible for that matter, but wether it goes against or with power.

~~~
dragonwriter
> It's for example a conspiracy theory to simply note that buildings don't
> just fall into themselves because of office furniture fires, but it's not a
> conspiracy theory to believe Saddam is about to unleash WMD without even
> being able to name what he'd gain from it. It doesn't take genius to note
> that the deciding factor is not how realistic or dumb fucking stupid
> something is, or even physically possible for that matter, but wether it
> goes against or with power.

Well, yeah, the phrase "conspiracy theory" refers to a theory that involves a
massive conspiracy among the power elites to keep the truth about some
important thing from the public.

So, yeah, the claims about Saddam's WMD's weren't a conspiracy theory, they
were just _lies by those in power_ (an accurate description of the nature and
motivation of those claims would have been a conspiracy theory, which
demonstrates also that "conspiracy theory" and "false" aren't the same thing.)

~~~
PavlovsCat
One thing I find helpful to keep in mind that if you hang a wall full of
analog clocks, they will synchronize. That's just what happens, without any of
the clocks ever formulating a plan and the rest agreeing to it.

In the same way, it's just common sense that powerful entities, while also
competing with each other, synchronize in keeping the unwashed masses in
check. If ants can do it, so can people. That in itself doesn't make any old
claim valid, but it means looking out for signs of such "unspoken conspiracy"
is simply paying attention instead of acting like a goldfish (by which I don't
mean to diss goldfish, just trying to make a point).

I expect snow in winter; that doesn't mean I may claim rain is snow, but it
means I wont stare for 30 minutes when it _does_ start snowing, and wonder
what all the white stuff is. It also means I sometimes get irritated with
people who do.

Yes, there are nutty theories and nutty claims. But they are so in their own
right, not "because it's a conspiracy theory". This is exactly as logically
valid as saying "that's a Jewish-sounding argument", to Godwin this thing for
good measure.

Not that you don't know all of this, I just felt like rambling a bit. HN
prides itself in having argument instead of memes, but it's still tinfoil this
and tinfoil that without even blushing sometimes, which is the lolcat of the
domesticated pseudo-intellectual if you ask me.

~~~
liberte9
A wall of analog clocks will synchronize? Elaborate?

~~~
PavlovsCat
I'm sorry, I meant the really old style analog clocks with a pendulum. After a
while, they will swing in unison.

[http://www.math.kyushu-u.ac.jp/eng/pages/laboratory04.html](http://www.math.kyushu-u.ac.jp/eng/pages/laboratory04.html)

Technically, they do "talk" to each other: " _the two pendulums would exert a
force on each other through minute vibrations in the wall_ ". I would argue
humans do the same. And not just "the" powerful either, everybody does.
Sometimes for fun, sometimes for gain, sometimes just to be social, but hardly
_ever_ with a clearly formulated "plan", or meetings in dimly lit rooms.
That's just not necessary when you already noticed you're in agreement with
someone about crucial things, simply because you're both _doing_ them.

Also, it's perfectly normal for people to "conspire" to do something without
any of them even reflecting on what they're doing individually, much less as a
group. It's possible to work in unison towards a common goal without even
being consciously aware of that. Kinda like a flock of birds, or pendulum
clocks :P

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agravier
The summary:

\- ∃ a (centralized) data collection by the french secret services (DGSE)

\- almost all telecommunications are intercepted and stored (physically, at
141 Boulevard Mortier, Paris)

\- They value metadata (social graph, etc) more than contents

\- Some parts of the Police force and some other agencies have access to some
of the data

\- The DSGE assets that the law does not "cover" this operation. The CNIL
(French commission for "computing and freedom") disagrees. There is some
general consensus to pretend that this French PRISM does not exist.

------
sentenza
Ok, so it seems this thing that we call free society is rapidly going off the
rails. In addition to GCHQ and this crap from France, Netzpolitik.org recently
dug up some interesting info on the publically known activities of the German
secret services, which include tapping sea cables[1] and listening in on 5% of
DECIX traffic[2].

So we now know for a fact that, while the general populace was blissfully
disinterested and the techie crowd was mostly playing with its new toys, the
intelligence community started building an all-encompassing global
surveillance infrastructure. If we don't manage to pull off a roll-back now,
our children or grandchildren will live in an actual science fiction dystopia.

My feeling is that we have a very small chance to achieve a roll-back in
(continental) Europe, because the uncovered actions of secret services here
are much more at odds with the societal consensus on the accepted powers of
the executive. For the big five prospects are IMO more bleak.

[1]
[http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&pre...](http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fnetzpolitik.org%2F2013%2Foperation-
delikatesse-auch-der-bundesnachrichtendienst-zapft-unterseekabel-an%2F) [2]
[http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&pre...](http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fnetzpolitik.org%2F2013%2Fbnd-
hat-zugriff-auf-deutschen-internetknoten-de-cix%2F)

~~~
rayiner
Why does surveillance necessarily have to lead to "actual science fiction
dystopia?"

~~~
sentenza
It is best to do the following thought experiment: What if all communications
data was available to "somebody"?

Well, sooner or later, this "somebody" would use it for things that for them
are no-brainers: For example fighting terrorism in case of "somebody" = law
enforcement. But then what?

Unfortunately, a situation in which somebody has all the data and is allowed
to use it for a limited number of purposes is not stable. There is just too
much that you can do with it, making the temptation irresistible. It then
really doesn't matter if the scope of usage is extended in a million small
steps or a few giant leaps, because the end state of a system with humans and
data is that the humans will use the data.

But obviously, not everybody will have access to the data. We start (now) from
a situation in which there is an information access asymmetry between the
intelligence community and the general public and there is no indication that
the intelligence community will ever be willing to give up this privileged
position.

So in the end, all the data is available and it is used for many purposes, but
the number of those that have access to it is limited, and their access gives
them certain advantages over everybody else. This is how, over the course of a
few dozen decades, you arrive at a security-clearance based caste system.

~~~
harryh
That wasn't a thought experiment. It was a bunch of predictions with no
supporting evidence.

~~~
sentenza
We're talking about future developments of society in a rather abstract
manner, so the whole discussion is always scraping along the edge of BS
territory. However, I've stated clear assumptions each step of the way. Some
of them may be wrong, but I am (unfortunately) confident that they're not.

Let's take the data usage expansion hypothesis. Already in the discussion
about the EU data retention directive many stakeholders stated that they want
access to the data for persecution of activities such as tax avoidance or file
sharing. Even now, after they (mostly) lost their case, these people try again
every few years. If they continue to persist and if they get a little bit of
what they want every now and then (which has happened), we have the million
steps scenario. I consider the situation unstable, because the resources of
those that want to restrict the usage of gathered data (at least here in the
EU) are dwarfed by the resources available to those that want to expand the
usage.

Even the most extreme statement in my tale (the one about the caste system)
has some footing in reality. When we still had the STASI here in Germany, the
nature of what they did basically made them such a caste. Because STASI
operatives had the job of spying on their surroundings with the tools
available at the time, they had a general information advantage compared to
everybody else. However, the rest of society avoided any contact with them
(obviously only possible when they were not undercover) because of what they
did. I once heard that children in school had to proclaim the professions of
their parents at some point during the school year. If a child did not state a
specific profession but just said "worker", everybody knew that the parents
were STASI. Of course the child was then shunned by the other children.

While falling short of a fully developed caste system, this little example
shows that a society with an extremely developed information gathering and
processing apparatus can move in that direction.

I admit that using the word thought experiment was most likely wrong, but then
it follows that one really can't make a Gedankenexperiment about the future of
society, doesn't it?

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monsterix
In some ways I believe that Internet has now matured up to a level where it is
able to impact the Government and its functionaries in a very _serious_ manner
(Avoiding the word disruptive here, because unlike Hollywood, Government
people generally take this word with a more murderous rage).

It's no longer okay to brush away stories _as conspiracy theories_ because,
well, you now know it could be true. Most likely. All this that has happened
in past few weeks seems like a _moment of truth_ to me. I have a strong
feeling that the next level of impact of Internet on these Governments and
arcane bureaucratic structures will be one to watch.

[Edited for spelling.]

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agilebyte
Just like with small countries acting as offshore tax havens, is there a case
for setting up a lot of cloud services in countries that neither have the
technical capability or simply do not care what data is stored with them? Of
course on the way there data pass through routers of at least one country that
siphons the information and using satellite internet connection is costly :(.

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acqq
English translation: Revelations about the French Big Brother

[http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&ie=UTF8&sl=auto&...](http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&ie=UTF8&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2013/07/04/revelations-
sur-le-big-brother-francais_3441973_3224.html)

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alan_cx
It will be interesting to see how the French public react to this in
comparison with Brits and Americans. Not to mention the Germans.

~~~
bsaul
I'm guessing, nobody will react. We already have the most impopular president
of the last 50 years, one of the highest tax rates of modern country, highest
unemployment rate, high abstention rate in elections, high immigration rates,
high debt ratios, and the extremist political parties are on the verge of
gaining massive support in the next european elections.

That, plus the fact that we've had numerous previous experiences of terrorists
bombing our country, makes me think that we really have far bigger issues than
the secret service spying everyone at the moment.

~~~
hbbio
I have to agree with many things you say, but I can't figure out why "high
immigration rates" may be a problem.

If you imagine a country as a giant shop, the more customers the best.

~~~
fchollet
Immigration can be a huge force for growth and prosperity as much as it can be
destructive. You can think of a country as a company, and of immigration as
recruitment. Recruitment will make, or kill, a company.

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steeve
So I guess we are indeed posturing against the US.

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p4bl0
Just as for the US, we've known that these intelligence programs exist for
many years. If you can read French, see this post [1] about Frenchelon from
2010, I also highly recommend the Bug Brother blog [2], and Reflets.info [3].

[1] [http://bugbrother.blog.lemonde.fr/2010/10/02/frenchelon-
la-d...](http://bugbrother.blog.lemonde.fr/2010/10/02/frenchelon-la-dgse-est-
en-1ere-division/)

[2] [http://bugbrother.blog.lemonde.fr/](http://bugbrother.blog.lemonde.fr/)

[3] [http://reflets.info/](http://reflets.info/)

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bane
For fun, zoom in on google maps at the DGSE address

[https://www.google.com/maps/preview#!q=141+Boulevard+Mortier...](https://www.google.com/maps/preview#!q=141+Boulevard+Mortier%2C+Paris%2C+France&data=!1m4!1m3!1d2518!2d2.4065259!3d48.8746018!2m1!1e3!4m11!1m10!2i21!4m8!1m3!1d23907!2d-77.5312646!3d38.9823075!3m2!1i1344!2i740!4f13.1&fid=7)

Bing maps does it too, but Bing's Bird's eye view only does it for 3 of the 4
cardinal directions

[http://www.bing.com/maps/?FORM=Z9LH2#Y3A9MzguOTA2ODk4fi03Ny4...](http://www.bing.com/maps/?FORM=Z9LH2#Y3A9MzguOTA2ODk4fi03Ny4wMjgzOTcmbHZsPTQmc3R5PXImcT0xNDElMjUyMEJvdWxldmFyZCUyNTIwTW9ydGllciUyNTJDJTI1MjBQYXJpcyUyNTJDJTI1MjBGcmFuY2U=)

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hbbio
There is an official translation:

[http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2013/07/04/revelations...](http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2013/07/04/revelations-
on-the-french-big-brother_3442665_3224.html)

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stfp
English version on lemonde.fr:
[http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2013/07/04/revelations...](http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2013/07/04/revelations-
on-the-french-big-brother_3442665_3224.html)

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antninja
It looks like with the nuclear bomb: all countries want the world to know that
they have it. Are secret attacks becoming the norm and governments are telling
they have the means to uncover any hidden identity?

Anyway, it would have been surprising if intelligence agencies didn't collect
as much data as they can. What was the most scandalous with Prism is the
methods of bullies used by civil servants against businessmen. It's fair if
they can catch data discreetly, not if they threaten to imprison or kill to
gain easier access to all databases.

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d0vs
Here is an English translation:
[http://beta.etherpad.org/p/AHZlGj2g6O](http://beta.etherpad.org/p/AHZlGj2g6O)

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liberte9
Are there any initiatives to build a new internet with secure/anonymous
transmissions in place from the ground up? Could such a thing even be
possible?

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neolithic
Was this leaked by Snowden? If so, it might explain why France blocked the
Bolivian president's plane from using French airspace.

~~~
zumth
They do not mention sources, but I'd say it is some sort of open secret which
is known by a lot of journalists. They mention that this officially does not
exist, and from off-the-record talks, it does not exist because it's "secret
défense".

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lucb1e
Merci, merci... now in English please? Can someone summarize it instead of
having to try to read Google Translate's gibberish?

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morenoise
everyone should start spamming themselves and all this will go nowhere
quickly.

------
Zigurd
There are two possible conclusions: Everyone does it, there is no hope, just
resign yourself to surveillance. Or, one can conclude that no matter how much
you trust your own government to treat surveillance data correctly, whatever
that might mean to you, some other government is out to get your business
data, etc. with no compunctions, so you better secure your systems and
communications.

